# I think I am done...six years hence



## Jethro

Long back story that I will try to be brief with and fill in details if needed.

Married 33 years this fall. Got married in a bit of a whirlwind romance after college. Wife and I share many things in common, including upbringing, religion, and education. She slept with an old boyfriend a couple of weeks before our wedding. I was a fool and believed her penitence and we got married anyway. To this day she still can't tell me why it happened.

During our marriage she maintained off and on contact with another old boyfriend. Nothing too regular--occasional birthday cards from him. Some evidence of other contact, like an occasional letter or phone call. She went to visit him (platonically, which was confirmed in later correspondence) and they continued contact through the first 10 years or so of our marriage. Six years ago I discovered that they had reconnected via email in late 2005 and carried on an extensive long distance communication (he was about 350 miles away) for more than five years. They met once, in 2006, when he passed through our town. During that meeting they did not have sex, but they did share passionate embraces and later expressed regret at not having gone further. They quit contact in 2011, shortly before my discovery. Later that year I went to confront him and my wife and I attempted to move on together. I downloaded hundreds of email exchanges between them over those years and have a very good sense of the nature and content of their communication.

He unexpectedly died in 2012, so I know there has been no contact. But, in the years since I don't feel she has been completely honest with me. In fact, I feel she has downplayed his significance to her. She has apologized many times for how she has hurt me. Still, I don't think she has been forthright in her account of what happened.

Based on my review of what they shared, I feel like much of our marriage has been a sham and I don't think I want to continue. I've tried various forms of counseling, to little/no avail. I struggle with what to do because leaving would be a major disruption in our lives and I am not sure I am ready to handle the aftermath of our divorce.

Am I just being a chickens**t?


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## sokillme

You have to decide what you can put up with. I can tell you this, I have read this post many times by lots of people who finally had enough of their SOs bull****. Sounds like she has had multiple affairs. It's hard to be married to disloyal people. If you really feel like your marriage is a sham I don't know why you would want to stay? She, at the very least had a Physical affair before you got marred and the extensive years long Emotional affair. Here is the thing repeated abuse causes people to lose their love for you. She has repeatedly abused you. Unrepentant Serial cheaters are hard to be married to. They are also not very safe. This sounds like a serious character flaw that has never been addressed. Don't discount the possibility that she could end up divorcing you and moving on with someone else she is cheating with. She has shown she doesn't have good boundaries, or loyalty. You should not feel like your life is now safe just because this man died. 

I think one of the things to look at is why you were willing to put up with such abuse? It doesn't seem healthy, maybe you should get some IC to become stronger. 

How old are you? Do you have kids? Why are you afraid? 

Bottom line only you can decide what you are capable of and what you are willing to take. There are threads on here from Men who moved on from their cheating wives later in the marriage after their kids were grown. I would say almost all seemed much happier, I only say that to say it doesn't have to be bad. It may end up being a better life for you. 

If you do divorce don't cover for her and let her make you out to be the bad guy. Make sure everyone knows even your kids. That way most will understand and she won't be able to use that a leverage. She doesn't deserve any loyalty when none was given.


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## GusPolinski

She cheated with one ex two weeks before your wedding and spent years cheating with another.

It's more or less a given that there's even more that you _don't_ know.

And _of course_ she's lying.

Cut her loose.


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## SunCMars

She had sex with the old boyfriend before your marriage because she knew it would be "much" more improper after marriage. Harder to pull off. 

Her attitude? "Lets do it one more time....I am getting married." It was a farewell screw. 

It may have been more than one time. She only admitted to the time that she got caught.

What is troubling is the fact that she "regrets" not doing PIV with the visiting POSOM. The intent and desire were there. Meaning? They mind ****ed each other. Just as bad. An EA for sure. 

I suspect had POSOM been more passionate and aggressive she would have dropped her panties that day. 

Her boundaries are loose. Your marriage has been a sham all the way through.


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## aine

How old are you both?

She definitely does not love or respect you as you do her? Have you ever cheated on her? 
Do you have kids?

How is your relationship now?

Go and see a lawyer and see what your options are. You are for obvious reasons still grappling with this, it is no way to leave, set yourself free.


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## Jethro

Thanks for your replies. We are in our mid-50s. Two children. One is 28 and married--our first grandchild is due this August. The other is in college. 

I can say with certainty that there haven't been others and I don't think there will be. That said, I am not sure how much I would care if she did have another fling. In fact, it might make things easier for me if she did.

The difficulty is the degree to which our lives are intertwined over more than 30 years. Family circumstances, professional situations, and financial aspects are all part of the picture of where we are today. 

I am 100% confident that she will be faithful to me. I also know that a divorce will cost me 7-figures, given our time together.


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## Truthseeker1

@Jethro - what work has your wife done to be a better person? She cheated before your wedding and then years later both with ex boyfriends. Do you think you have been a 30 year plan b? It could be i'm not sure nor am I sure your wife really cares about anything but her stability and comfort now that the OM wont be a possibility. Can you live with that?


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## sokillme

Jethro said:


> I can say with certainty that there haven't been others and I don't think there will be.


Why exactly, what has changed in her? Usually serial cheaters continue to cheat unless they get help and work hard. You would not be the first or the last who have overlooked a character flaw only to get burned by it down the road. Like it or not you are taking a risk. Besides that I would bet good money that she has done a lot more then you know, maybe with these guys and maybe with others. You wife fits all the patterns. All of us are going to say this same thing to you because we have read too many threads like yours. Women like your wife basically want attention and are willing to go a long way to get it. 

Does she understand what a ****ty wife she has been to you? I don't know man life is too short. You can have other things, you don't get a second chance at happiness. It's not like she deserves any of your loyalty. Your kids will get used to the idea especially if you tell them of her serial cheating. They will understand eventually as long as you don't back down.


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## TDSC60

Are you sure the kids are yours?


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## Marc878

It's a shock when you discover your whole marriage has had that depth of betrayal.

You'll either have a good rest of your life or wallow in this one.

Just think if she'd put all that effort into your marriage instead of her secret boyfriend?

As you look back now you'll see things a lot differently now that your eyes are fully opened.


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## Marc878

Jethro said:


> Long back story that I will try to be brief with and fill in details if needed.
> 
> Married 33 years this fall. Got married in a bit of a whirlwind romance after college. Wife and I share many things in common, including upbringing, religion, and education. She slept with an old boyfriend a couple of weeks before our wedding. I was a fool and believed her penitence and we got married anyway. To this day she still can't tell me why it happened.
> 
> During our marriage she maintained off and on contact with another old boyfriend. Nothing too regular--occasional birthday cards from him. Some evidence of other contact, like an occasional letter or phone call. She went to visit him (platonically, which was confirmed in later correspondence) and they continued contact through the first 10 years or so of our marriage. Six years ago I discovered that they had reconnected via email in late 2005 and carried on an extensive long distance communication (he was about 350 miles away) for more than five years. They met once, in 2006, when he passed through our town. During that meeting they did not have sex, but they did share passionate embraces and later expressed regret at not having gone further. They quit contact in 2011, shortly before my discovery. Later that year I went to confront him and my wife and I attempted to move on together. I downloaded hundreds of email exchanges between them over those years and have a very good sense of the nature and content of their communication.
> 
> Was it a full blown EA with I Love You's etc? Where you bashed a lot?
> 
> He unexpectedly died in 2012, so I know there has been no contact. But, in the years since I don't feel she has been completely honest with me. In fact, I feel she has downplayed his significance to her. She has apologized many times for how she has hurt me. Still, I don't think she has been forthright in her account of what happened.
> 
> You have their correspondence. I suspect her version does not line up to the evidence you have?
> 
> Based on my review of what they shared, I feel like much of our marriage has been a sham and I don't think I want to continue. I've tried various forms of counseling, to little/no avail. I struggle with what to do because leaving would be a major disruption in our lives and I am not sure I am ready to handle the aftermath of our divorce.
> 
> Am I just being a chickens**t?


All cheaters lie, hide and deny. It's their mantra.

Sorry you are here dealing with this.


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## Mr Blunt

Jethro
Based on your posts your wife did not have a sexual affair during your marriage but she sure wished she had. Also, having sex with a boyfriend TWO WEEKS before you married her is a very bad sign. At the very lest you have not been the only one that your wife desired and she has not shown you much respect. It is extremely damaging to a relationship when one spouse desires other people for communication and sex but you already know that very well. You NOT being the one and only in your wife’s life will drive you away or you will compromise.

You want out of this shame of a marriage that has damaged trust but the costs are very high and you are not willing at this point top take the leap to a D.* You seem to have the financial resources for you to live in separate quarters from your wife. Would that help for now until you can decide whether to D or not?*


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## Jethro

Thanks, all, for your comments. I agree, Truthseeker, and I have felt like a plan b guy for three decades. I am a stable, family guy, good provider type. I haven't felt like "the one" for her since she slept with BF #1 before our marriage.

She has apologized many time since and I believe she wants to spend the rest of her life with me. I feel cheated, however, and not simply because of the unfaithfulness. I feel like I was robbed of the type of early marriage that was full of passion and romance. The first few years of our marriage were rough--due in large part to my tremendous hurt at being betrayed and subsequent challenges we faced.

In the past six years she has been more loving and appreciative of me. At the same time, I have felt less and less desirous of the one thing I wanted all those years before--her loving attention. My resentments seem to be overriding the fact that I am finally getting from her what I always yearned for.

Yes, the kids are mine. I have no doubts of that for reasons that I won't go into here.

I do feel resentment, Marc, that she gave these men attention that should have been focused on me and am angry that I get her attention so late in the game.

Her EA was full blown. Lots of expressions of love and desire and wishing to be together. Expressions of sexual desire that she told him were feelings she had only for him and that she had never felt for any other man--which kicked me in the gut when I saw them. She also seemed, as was suggested by SunCMars to have been willing to be more intimate with him if he had wanted to. They expressed that they had parts of each other that belonged only to them. She told him she thought of him all of the time and she clearly knew that what she was doing was a betrayal to me.

Over time I have confronted her with the correspondence and asked her to explain certain things she said. Initially, she tried to rationalize what happened as a reaction to what she wasn't getting from me and our marriage. I challenged such assertions and since then she has repeatedly apologized (in a sincere way) for what she did, but I have never felt that she has fully owned up to the reality of her feelings for the other man. The same is true for her reasons for going to BF#1 before our marriage. She went to him. He lived an hour away and I was starting my new job in another state. I maintain that she knew she wasn't ready to marry me (or anyone) and tried to get him to convince her not to marry me and, when he didn't do that, she told me about it so that I would call off the wedding. When I didn't follow through, we were both stuck.

In our current circumstance she needs me for many reasons and I don't really need her. My reasons for staying would not be for my happiness. Rather they would be to support her, maintain family peace, and protect assets. I could be content, but would be unfulfilled.


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## TheTruthHurts

Jethro said:


> Thanks, all, for your comments. I agree, Truthseeker, and I have felt like a plan b guy for three decades. I am a stable, family guy, good provider type. I haven't felt like "the one" for her since she slept with BF #1 before our marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> She has apologized many time since and I believe she wants to spend the rest of her life with me. I feel cheated, however, and not simply because of the unfaithfulness. I feel like I was robbed of the type of early marriage that was full of passion and romance. The first few years of our marriage were rough--due in large part to my tremendous hurt at being betrayed and subsequent challenges we faced.
> 
> 
> 
> In the past six years she has been more loving and appreciative of me. At the same time, I have felt less and less desirous of the one thing I wanted all those years before--her loving attention. My resentments seem to be overriding the fact that I am finally getting from her what I always yearned for.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the kids are mine. I have no doubts of that for reasons that I won't go into here.
> 
> 
> 
> I do feel resentment, Marc, that she gave these men attention that should have been focused on me and am angry that I get her attention so late in the game.
> 
> 
> 
> Her EA was full blown. Lots of expressions of love and desire and wishing to be together. Expressions of sexual desire that she told him were feelings she had only for him and that she had never felt for any other man--which kicked me in the gut when I saw them. She also seemed, as was suggested by SunCMars to have been willing to be more intimate with him if he had wanted to. They expressed that they had parts of each other that belonged only to them. She told him she thought of him all of the time and she clearly knew that what she was doing was a betrayal to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Over time I have confronted her with the correspondence and asked her to explain certain things she said. Initially, she tried to rationalize what happened as a reaction to what she wasn't getting from me and our marriage. I challenged such assertions and since then she has repeatedly apologized (in a sincere way) for what she did, but I have never felt that she has fully owned up to the reality of her feelings for the other man. The same is true for her reasons for going to BF#1 before our marriage. She went to him. He lived an hour away and I was starting my new job in another state. I maintain that she knew she wasn't ready to marry me (or anyone) and tried to get him to convince her not to marry me and, when he didn't do that, she told me about it so that I would call off the wedding. When I didn't follow through, we were both stuck.
> 
> 
> 
> In our current circumstance she needs me for many reasons and I don't really need her. My reasons for staying would not be for my happiness. Rather they would be to support her, maintain family peace, and protect assets. I could be content, but would be unfulfilled.




Depends on your character.

If you've decided to give up on happiness then maybe just rug sweep it and stay stable, but resentful and victimized.

Another route might be to get a good psychologist since you have the money, and figure out what your real feelings are 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Truthseeker1

Jethro said:


> Over time I have confronted her with the correspondence and asked her to explain certain things she said. *Initially, she tried to rationalize what happened as a reaction to what she wasn't getting from me and our marriage. I challenged such assertions and since then she has repeatedly apologized (in a sincere way) for what she did, but I have never felt that she has fully owned up to the reality of her feelings for the other man. *
> 
> In our current circumstance she needs me for many reasons and I don't really need her. My reasons for staying would not be for my happiness. Rather they would be to support her, maintain family peace, and protect assets. I could be content, but would be unfulfilled.


If you wife has not fully resolved this and owned up to what she did TWICE - what is there to sustain you in that marriage? If you've been plan B for 30 years do you feel like you want to end your life as plan b? Remember OM #2 is dead - so you dont know if she would have taken half your money and ran off with him do you? I'm also skeptical about her being "loving" - have her feelings changed or is she just an aging housewife with limited prospects now that the OM is dead? It sounds harsh but you need to ask yourself the hard questions. 

Look what I would suggest is you see a counselor ASAP and sort through this. You are in your mid 50s correct? Young enough to make a life for yourself without her. if that is what you desire. If you choose R you still have much to work though so a counselor can help with that. If you choose D make sure your kids know the WHOLE truth about BOTH OM. Dont allow your wife to blame you.

I have another question - it seems as if she got a family, security and got to cheat twice wihtout any consequences, what did you get exactly?


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## alte Dame

This really sounds like a stark choice between stability/security and personal happiness. People are different in this regard. I would opt for the happiness and thus I recommend that you file. I'm almost 35 years into a M, so I very much know how dug in you are. At the same time, the length of her A would be a dealbreaker for me if the marital love weren't there to help a reconciliation along.


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## Truthseeker1

alte Dame said:


> This really sounds like a stark choice between stability/security and personal happiness. People are different in this regard. I would opt for the happiness and thus I recommend that you file. I'm almost 35 years into a M, so I very much know how dug in you are. At the same time, the length of her A would be a dealbreaker for me if the marital love weren't there to help a reconciliation along.


Agreed the thing is the OP admitted to feeling like plan b for 30 years - no person should have ot live like that. But some people can deal with it if other aspects of their life are pleasant enough. Either way counseling will be needed IMO.


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## ABHale

I would D and replace with a hot 30 something. 

Why stay. 

Split assets with the kids and move on.


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## sokillme

Jethro said:


> Thanks, all, for your comments. I agree, Truthseeker, and I have felt like a plan b guy for three decades. I am a stable, family guy, good provider type. I haven't felt like "the one" for her since she slept with BF #1 before our marriage.
> 
> She has apologized many time since and I believe she wants to spend the rest of her life with me. I feel cheated, however, and not simply because of the unfaithfulness. I feel like I was robbed of the type of early marriage that was full of passion and romance. The first few years of our marriage were rough--due in large part to my tremendous hurt at being betrayed and subsequent challenges we faced.
> 
> In the past six years she has been more loving and appreciative of me. At the same time, I have felt less and less desirous of the one thing I wanted all those years before--her loving attention. My resentments seem to be overriding the fact that I am finally getting from her what I always yearned for.
> 
> Yes, the kids are mine. I have no doubts of that for reasons that I won't go into here.
> 
> I do feel resentment, Marc, that she gave these men attention that should have been focused on me and am angry that I get her attention so late in the game.
> 
> Her EA was full blown. Lots of expressions of love and desire and wishing to be together. Expressions of sexual desire that she told him were feelings she had only for him and that she had never felt for any other man--which kicked me in the gut when I saw them. She also seemed, as was suggested by SunCMars to have been willing to be more intimate with him if he had wanted to. They expressed that they had parts of each other that belonged only to them. She told him she thought of him all of the time and she clearly knew that what she was doing was a betrayal to me.
> 
> Over time I have confronted her with the correspondence and asked her to explain certain things she said. Initially, she tried to rationalize what happened as a reaction to what she wasn't getting from me and our marriage. I challenged such assertions and since then she has repeatedly apologized (in a sincere way) for what she did, but I have never felt that she has fully owned up to the reality of her feelings for the other man. The same is true for her reasons for going to BF#1 before our marriage. She went to him. He lived an hour away and I was starting my new job in another state. I maintain that she knew she wasn't ready to marry me (or anyone) and tried to get him to convince her not to marry me and, when he didn't do that, she told me about it so that I would call off the wedding. When I didn't follow through, we were both stuck.
> 
> In our current circumstance she needs me for many reasons and I don't really need her. My reasons for staying would not be for my happiness. Rather they would be to support her, maintain family peace, and protect assets. I could be content, but would be unfulfilled.


Yeah, life's too short. You acknowledge you should have left her when she cheated on you right before you got married, you didn't. You again admit you should have left her when she was swearing her love and parts to this other man. Again you didn't. Now all the abuse and damage she has done to you, sounds like you are just staying out of a misplaced sense of duty. You don't even care is she loves you or not. Hey I am all for loyalty and honor when the person you are with has done the same. This woman has had two affairs! I would bet money the second one was also physical but does that even matter? You have done enough for her. Each time you stayed, how did that work out? Maybe it's time to leave. 

Two affairs. Frankly she doesn't love you. This is the reason why I say you are not at all safe, like you think you are. All she needs to do is meet another man that hits her right in the wanderlust bucket that she needs filling and she won't thing twice about throwing you under the bus. This time it may be an exit affair. SHE HAS ALREADY DONE IT TO YOU TWICE. And when you had kids at the time, this may be why she didn't leave and go with this "parts" guy. It just happens that now he is dead so she can't. She probably would have. Again trust a person who throughout your entire marriage has never shown you any loyalty at you own risk. Why would NOW be any different. She is in her 50s not dead, with Facebook and social media women are having affairs all the time in their 50s. I am sorry to say you seem very overconfident on this point. 

You talk about supporting her but why can't she support herself? Is she sick or something? Obviously you will have to pay some sort of support even if you leave, that is a given. So she will still have support, but if she has to work a little harder, consider it penance for treating you like your only role was to support her. You will also take a monetary hit as well but at least you have a chance to be happy. 

I would be gone. Tell your kids the truth all of the truth so leaving can't be used against you. I mean stark hard truth and how it made you feel all these years. DON'T COUCH IT. Lots of times kids will side with Mom unless there are some reasons not to. Almost everyone gets cheated on at least once, when it happens to them they will understand your reasons. Even still, yes there will be some turmoil but they will get over it. They will be moving on with their own families and Mom and Dad will take a back seat to that. Hopefully just like you have taken all the **** she has thrown at you, you can at least ask her to do the same when it comes to family events a few times a year, or they can split the time. I have been doing that almost my whole life with my divorced parents, in a few years it just becomes a part of the tradition. Christmas Eve at Mom's. Christmas at Dad's. Or split the day, whatever. 

Again life is too short. You can still have that passion for someone else who is passionate about you and treats you with respect. Hell she can maybe even be married to someone she loves and treats with respect. This is exactly how I would break it to her too. "Wife, now that our kids are grown I realize and have come to terms with the fact that you never really loved me like you did these other men. You and I both deserve to have relationships where both people feel that way. For whatever reason I was never enough for you, and I accept that, so I am letting you go so you can find that person." That will blow her mind. She deserves it. Then get in great shape, dress nice and go find the passion with someone who will make the second half of your adult life better then the first.

You could live another 35 years you know.


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## Jethro

Thanks again, everyone, for your thoughtful comments and support. I think there are more layers to the situation that I should include. They don't really change anything, but they add texture to where things currently stand.

My wife has some challenges with her mental and emotional health that are both a factor in her affairs and in how I feel about staying with her now. She has been on anti-depressants for more than a decade, and they seem to have helped keep her from having as many intense outbursts of anger and anxiety. 

Please recall that my D-day was nearly six years ago. In the months after discovery I did many things to deal with what happened and to help me heal. I actually drove the 350 miles to confront the OM face-to-face. I surreptitiously monitored her communications for several years. I also took many steps to work on me and since then I have continued to do things like work out regularly, watch my diet, and lift weights. I don't think I would struggle to find female companionship if I were to re-enter the dating scene. 

In the months following discovery I also addressed a career plateau I had been experiencing and quickly had four job offers from which to choose. I accepted a position five years ago and have since been promoted. That job is located about three hours away from where we were living. To let our younger daughter finish HS, I commented back and forth most weeks. Now that our daughter is in college, my wife is the one doing most of the commuting. The time apart has given me lots of opportunity to think about where we are and whether I want to stay together. 

What I am dealing with now is less about what she did and more about who we are and what the next 25-30 years will be like.


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## GusPolinski

Sooo... with respect to the title of this thread -- when you say "I think I am done" -- what did you mean?

Sounds like a whole lotta "cheaper to keep her" phooey.


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## Mizzbak

Jethro,

There is nothing that your wife can do to change any of her past behaviour. But, what could she do or say now that would change how you feel about it? 

My husband was still in the dying throes of an online, emotional affair 12 years ago when we got married. So, I do completely understand your comments about feeling "robbed of the type of early marriage that was full of passion and romance". But, in your wife's favour, she did tell you about it before you got married. So you married her already knowing about it, if not fully understanding the impact that it would have on your own feelings towards your marriage. 

Regarding her recent affair: I'm going to beg to differ from several other posters here. I don't think that it means she didn't love you or that she is serial cheater. In my opinion, premarital infidelity followed by more than 20 years of fidelity is not serial cheating. Poor boundaries, character weakness and (from what you say in your recent post) several other factors contributed to her more recent affair. Which ended more than 5 years ago. Remember that to her, a lot of what you write about here, is in the past. I understand that to you, the pain is as vivid as if it happened yesterday. And that the affair colors the entire period of your life during which it was conducted. But to her, this is something that a long ago version of her did. And she possibly doesn't even connect that strongly with this younger self. If you showed her the texts and emails today, they would are likely to be unfamiliar and even (I hope) almost obscene to her.

I understand, very well, how an old betrayal is resurrected and amplified by a newer one. How we string them together and stretch them until they shadow the entirety of a marriage. Contaminating it with the thoughts of being "plan b" and of never being able to trust or believe in a person ever again. But I'm going to challenge you (and myself) not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Your wife, like you, is in a constant state of change and growth. She is no more the same person she was 33 years, or even 5 years ago, than you are. How do you feel about the person she is right now?

None of what I have said here invalidates your pain, or your right to walk away from your marriage. Either because of the pain and distrust that you cannot get over, or for a completely different reason. Like the fact that you think you might be happier with someone else. You have clearly thought thoroughly about the impact of not being married to her any longer - on both you, her and your joint life. So, I'm asking again - what could your wife do or say in this present that could change how you feel about her, your marriage and her unfaithfulness? If there is nothing, then there is nothing. But, if there is something, then you should tell her.


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## KevinZX

"Based on my review of what they shared, I feel like much of our marriage has been a sham and I don't think I want to continue".

Kind says it all, you have been bottling up this woman's behavior for years and it is eating you up inside, please sort this out, either get her to counselling to get the answers you need from her or get her gone if she doesn't want to play ball, your choice, as others have pointed out, she will leave you one day and you will be left to pick up the pieces, be strong and confront, you have nothing to lose.

Love and peace

KevinZX


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## Truthseeker1

Jethro said:


> In the months following discovery I also addressed a career plateau I had been experiencing and quickly had four job offers from which to choose. I accepted a position five years ago and have since been promoted. That job is located about three hours away from where we were living. To let our younger daughter finish HS, I commented back and forth most weeks. Now that our daughter is in college, my wife is the one doing most of the commuting. The time apart has given me lots of opportunity to think about where we are and whether I want to stay together.
> 
> What I am dealing with now is less about what she did and more about who we are and what the next 25-30 years will be like.


 @Jethro - I'm sorry your wife has issues but that does not get to the heart of the matter. You have admitted you felt like plan b for 30 years - was she your plan a for those 30 years? If so you have been in a terribly one sided relationship, dont you think?

I'm not saying you need to decide now but either way you do need counseling to decide how you want to proceed. Just because your wife has issues does not excuse her affair nor her treating you like plan b for 30 years. 

You admitted yourself you dont really desire her attention now - did the attention start after her OM died? She still has to account for her words and actions with the OM.


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## SunCMars

Jethro said:


> Thanks for your replies. We are in our mid-50s. Two children. One is 28 and married--our first grandchild is due this August. The other is in college.
> 
> I can say with certainty that there haven't been others and I don't think there will be. *That said, I am not sure how much I would care if she did have another fling.* In fact, it might make things easier for me if she did.
> 
> *The difficulty is the degree to which our lives are intertwined over more than 30 years.* Family circumstances, professional situations, and financial aspects are all part of the picture of where we are today.
> 
> I am 100% confident that she will be faithful to me. I also know that a divorce will cost me 7-figures, given our time together.


This post says it all.

Anyone who has been married over 30 years have entwined lives. Your vines growing into her vines.
Her veins into your veins...even little capillaries feeding off of each other. NO!

After D-Day you learned she was *symbolically* trading her love giving blood secretly with another man. Yes, giving some to you. But most of that bonding plasma went to her EA partner. Especially the oxygen rich red blood cells. She visioned him before her, she took a deep breath...air entered her lungs. The interloper got the higher dose of red rich blood. You got spent blue stuff. 

She kissed and hugged him, wished he had penetrated her, leaving behind a dollop of warm remembrance.....inside of her. For her to relish, to re-live in her mind, over and over. And feeling it drip..leaving her body nether...on the ride home. These are the memories a women has of a romantic encounter. The after glow, the flesh between her legs still throbbing. 

You are 100% confident she will remain faithful..from now on? So what. The damage has already been done. You admit that you wish she cheats again. It will make it easier for you.

Easier to what? Divorce, of course. You are being passive....still. You are permitting her to skate...on your heart.
You want HER to pull the trigger...FORCE you to divorce her. Last time I looked, she already did that.

Take the financial hit. You no longer respect her, value her. All you are worried about is the damn money.

How about your own happiness? How about that length of flesh between your legs? Are you going to let it softly linger, unfulfilled and unsatisfied for the next twenty five years, or so? 

Unsatisfied because of her. If you continue to go through the marital motions, continue to pump her on the marital bed, you will be miserable.

Eff the money. You can live just fine on half. Half of your money..

Half of your money and a new [and so sweet] honey pot, connected to a loyal, loving, frisky women. Who will share all her fluids with you. And to her, yours'. None shared with another POS.

You will give up half your money and enjoy a new women.....for twenty five glorious years. What a Deal!

And cheap, too.

Just Sayin'


----------



## Thound

I don't blame you one iota for wanting out. If I'm not the only one in my wife's eyes, I wouldn't want to stay either.


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## Cromer

I am in my early 50's and am ending a 30-year marriage to my former best friend. It's not easy but once I made the decision that the money and property and family expectations wasn't worth my happiness, the weight of the world lifted from my mind. Yes, our families and kids were shocked and I'm losing a lot of money, but everyone has come to accept the new normal. I so wished that I had done this many years ago.

For me, I stayed for all of the reasons you have and ignored my happiness. The bottom line is that we aren't getting younger brother. I am not saying you should leave but want you to understand from my point of view that spending your entire adult life with someone doesn't mean you should continue to stay at the expense of your peace of mind and happiness.


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## alte Dame

I don't believe that, once we are adults, someone else should get to secretly make decisions about how we live that determine the course of our lives. Affairs like what your WW did took away your right to determine your own path. (You were young and over an emotional barrel when you married imo.) 

It seems to me that at this point you have detached enough to respond in a final way to her robbing you of all these years. You are working hours away and have already established that physical distance for most of the week. You say that you don't think it would matter much to you if she had an A now. Right now it sounds like the sunk cost fallacy is what is holding you back & that is what it says it is, a fallacy.

You're not old. I'm older than you and can guarantee that you can have passion when you are older. You could have another 30 years in you. The passion is different, but it is there.

I think you started this thread as the next stepping stone on your path away from an unhappy marriage. We have validated that you should take this step, I think. I hope you get the courage to do it. As so many have said, life is too short. Four truer words have rarely been spoken.


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## turnera

Jethro said:


> Thanks, all, for your comments. I agree, Truthseeker, and I have felt like a plan b guy for three decades.


This won't be popular, but I don't think you were plan b. I think there was a part of her that wished that guy could have been in her life but that she chose you, and she wanted to have you, but also a connection to him. If that makes sense. I think the level of infidelity isn't the issue so much as that she hid it from you; that she had a secret life you knew nothing about.

You say you're considering your life for the next 30 years. And that you're about to be a grandfather. I will submit that, if you divorce, all those opportunities for enjoying the growing family will be torn apart. And honestly, family/grandkids is going to start becoming a more and more important part of your daily life. Holidays? Birthdays? Unless you and your wife divorce amicably and remain good friends, it's going to get complicated. 

So my advice would be, since she's not showing any inclination for picking out random men - just the one she had a past with, see if you two can work on this in therapy before you do anything. Get her to drill down into why and how she could do that for so many years. She doesn't sound like an evil person, a User, just a messed up person. You can't fix evil, but you can get help for being messed up. 

JMHO


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## TAMAT

Jethro,

Have her write out a timeline for everything before and during your marriage, then a Polygraph.

Contact the OM from before your marriage, if he was married at the time or had a girlfriend let the girl know contact her first.

Present your evidence to the most recent OM wife and kids and then have your W confess and apologize to her.

Have your W apologize to your kids.

You may be able to get a post-nuptual out of her.

There has to be a cost to your WW for all of this.

It's really horrible to realize you were your Ws plan B for the whole marriage, was your sex life with your W lukewarm as well. I don't know how to get back my years of third rate sex either. 

Tamat


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## Truthseeker1

turnera said:


> This won't be popular, but I don't think you were plan b. *I think there was a part of her that wished that guy could have been in her life but that she chose you, and she wanted to have you, but also a connection to him. If that makes sense. *I think the level of infidelity isn't the issue so much as that she hid it from you; that she had a secret life you knew nothing about.
> 
> You say you're considering your life for the next 30 years. And that you're about to be a grandfather. I will submit that, if you divorce, all those opportunities for enjoying the growing family will be torn apart. And honestly, family/grandkids is going to start becoming a more and more important part of your daily life. Holidays? Birthdays? Unless you and your wife divorce amicably and remain good friends, it's going to get complicated.
> 
> So my advice would be, since she's not showing any inclination for picking out random men - just the one she had a past with, see if you two can work on this in therapy before you do anything. Get her to drill down into why and how she could do that for so many years. She doesn't sound like an evil person, a User, just a messed up person. You can't fix evil, but you can get help for being messed up.
> 
> JMHO



You make some very valid points here. @Jethro would be wise to consider them. However hasnt his wife been cake eating? Emotional connections to other men while enjoying the security the OP provides? She got to have the best of both worlds for so many years and what does he have? 

I do get why someone would choose security and if that is what the OP chooses then I wish him nothing but happiness and peace with his choice.


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## turnera

I didn't say it was fair. I just meant that there are other things to consider.


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## sokillme

Jethro said:


> Thanks again, everyone, for your thoughtful comments and support. I think there are more layers to the situation that I should include. They don't really change anything, but they add texture to where things currently stand.
> 
> My wife has some challenges with her mental and emotional health that are both a factor in her affairs and in how I feel about staying with her now. She has been on anti-depressants for more than a decade, and they seem to have helped keep her from having as many intense outbursts of anger and anxiety.
> 
> Please recall that my D-day was nearly six years ago. In the months after discovery I did many things to deal with what happened and to help me heal. I actually drove the 350 miles to confront the OM face-to-face. I surreptitiously monitored her communications for several years. I also took many steps to work on me and since then I have continued to do things like work out regularly, watch my diet, and lift weights. I don't think I would struggle to find female companionship if I were to re-enter the dating scene.
> 
> In the months following discovery I also addressed a career plateau I had been experiencing and quickly had four job offers from which to choose. I accepted a position five years ago and have since been promoted. That job is located about three hours away from where we were living. To let our younger daughter finish HS, I commented back and forth most weeks. Now that our daughter is in college, my wife is the one doing most of the commuting. The time apart has given me lots of opportunity to think about where we are and whether I want to stay together.
> 
> What I am dealing with now is less about what she did and more about who we are and what the next 25-30 years will be like.


Great, so you basically detached from her and improved yourself, which is the advice that is always given to people who are cheated on. The sad fact is that once you take emotion out of the equation lots of times there is really only convenience that holds people to people who abused them. I have read many posts just like this, mostly from husbands usually years out. Marriage is hard, once you brake the bond it takes a monumental effort to get it back. I think it's hard to know in the first few years of trying to work it out if the love is going to survive. Seems like people in the early years are running off of emotions and many times desperation. Also it doesn't seem like you wife did the work or even understands the damage she did to you. That makes it even harder. Maybe she still could but she has to get it to do it. That seems to be where you are at. 

I know you think you are still responsible for this women but are you? I am always of the opinion that cheating on someone is basically firing them from that role. At least it would be for me. Your wife is a grown adult, adult. She has unilaterally made decisions about you and your marriage. She had no problem ignoring the affects on you. This was only six years ago. 

What has she done to change in those six years except say she is sorry? From the sounds of it she was on the meds when she was cheating. Seriously that is not enough, and I will say it one more time, unless she fixes what is wrong with her (that means IC and hard work) she is a risk.


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## sokillme

turnera said:


> You say you're considering your life for the next 30 years. And that you're about to be a grandfather. I will submit that, if you divorce, all those opportunities for enjoying the growing family will be torn apart. And honestly, family/grandkids is going to start becoming a more and more important part of your daily life. Holidays? Birthdays? Unless you and your wife divorce amicably and remain good friends, it's going to get complicated.


This hasn't been true in my experience. My sisters kids just have two sets of Grand Parents. My Dad went to all the games, dance events, so did their Mom. They sat in different places and waited their turn to interact. They scheduled birthdays on different days. Her kids didn't lose anything because they didn't have it any other way. If anything they got more because there were two events not one. Even my Mom who is my Sisters step-mother goes to the birthday parties now. 

Is it complicated, sure. But it doesn't mean he is going to miss out on anything. I love my Father's wife, I told her the last time I saw her what a wonderful addition she has made to our family. He married her at around OP's age and they have been married 20 years. Which for my Dad is a miracle. She has been around my who adult life, I am the youngest, my Sisters who are married were at that point. I can't imagine not having her in our lives. Just saying it doesn't have to be a bad thing.

That being said it could also work out badly too, that is true.

All that being said I am not sure why the default position here is that she would never cheat again. When has she shown an inclination to do this in the past. If she meet someone who strikes her interest why would she not pursue it? What's to stop her? Loyalty? Boundaries? These seem missing.


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## Thor

Jethro said:


> But, in the years since I don't feel she has been completely honest with me. In fact, I feel she has downplayed his significance to her. She has apologized many times for how she has hurt me. Still, I don't think she has been forthright in her account of what happened.
> 
> Based on my review of what they shared, I feel like much of our marriage has been a sham and I don't think I want to continue. I've tried various forms of counseling, to little/no avail. I struggle with what to do because leaving would be a major disruption in our lives and I am not sure I am ready to handle the aftermath of our divorce.
> 
> Am I just being a chickens**t?


No, you're not.

Her version of marriage is different than yours. You have every right to your belief system and your needs within a marriage. If she doesn't match what you need, she just doesn't match. You have no obligation to suffer long term anguish in order to conform to her version.

And likewise, she has no obligation to be somebody she isn't so that she conforms to your version of marriage.

I see a lot of similarity between your wife and my ex. My ex was totally comfortable keeping a flame burning for at least one ex-bf of hers throughout our marriage despite knowing how it bothered me. She was incapable of understanding why it bothered me. To her, it didn't mean anything that she still felt this way about him. I think you may run into lot of people who would side with your wife and my ex on this, saying things like "She chose you" etc. Lots of people see no problem with having exes being friends on social media or seeing them socially in person.

Yet lots of people feel pain when their spouse has this contact with an ex. And that is completely valid. It is based on a different view of what a marriage should be.

Obviously I relate to your side of the situation. I believe your wife was disrespectful to you and to the marriage with her behavior. In addition, your feeling the marriage has been a sham is a logical description given the kind of emotional closeness you desire and expect within a marriage. Two people with your wife's view of marriage would not feel the marriage was a sham, but that doesn't make it incorrect that you see it that way.

Can you recalibrate who you see her as, and if so is that someone you can be happy with?

Divorce over age 50 has some financial worries beyond what a younger person might have. But on the other hand you will be living authentically for yourself, and likely will find a woman who is going to be authentic with you. Things will be different but I think you will be amazed at how much weight has been lifted.


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## TheTruthHurts

@Jethro we don't know enough to really know what your WW was or is thinking.

But I see a couple of possibilities. First - you were and are her plan A. That's entirely possible and she has indicated that.

If it's true, then why would explain her behavior?

One possibility is a defect in her character - a very common one that I see in my daily life. I see it when I look at houses and cars. I realize people seek to be happier or more fulfilled by getting what others have; by comparing themselves and mistakenly assuming that buying a different car or bigger house will validate them and alleviate the anxiety that they aren't living the life that they could or should.

These other guys remained a fantasy and frankly could be anything your WW desired to fill in that hole. They never dealt in reality - the reality of daily life with someone, and of responsibilities. Instead they were forever HS perfect guys and that image didn't age either.

It's possible you were plan A and they were fantasy A, fulfilling that void

The other possibility - which isn't as nice - is that you have all the qualities she desired and still desires - except lust and passion. So that's why we asked about your sex life. If it always lacked that lust and passion then you might have been plan b in that regard - which is a huge blow to most men. If she once had passion and then lost it, it could be that you were Plan A there but time, circumstances and the EAs robbed you of that. Finally, if the passion is still there, from time to time (I assume your distance over the past several years would impact this) then maybe you always were and remain plan A but she has been selfish and a cake eater having other men lust after her too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Thor

turnera said:


> You say you're considering your life for the next 30 years. And that you're about to be a grandfather. I will submit that, if you divorce, all those opportunities for enjoying the growing family will be torn apart. And honestly, family/grandkids is going to start becoming a more and more important part of your daily life. Holidays? Birthdays? Unless you and your wife divorce amicably and remain good friends, it's going to get complicated.


Unfortunately I think you are going to feed his fears with that.

I see my kids and grandkids all the time, just not with my ex. I have holidays with my kids and grandkids, and so does my ex. We do the celebrations on different days, so they all get two holidays, two birthdays every year.

Our divorce was relatively amicable, but these days we barely talk. We are civil but not friendly when we do need to communicate, but there is little need to communicate since all the kids are adults.

One of my biggest fears was the loss of the intact family if I got divorced. One can never create it with someone new at this age. Divorce at age 30 means you can have another family, more babies, etc. At 55 yrs old it means a new marriage will never mean taking our mutual young children on camping trips or seeing them light up Christmas morning. So, yes, it is different. But it turns out to be ok.


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## Thor

Jethro said:


> In our current circumstance she needs me for many reasons and I don't really need her. My reasons for staying would not be for my happiness. Rather they would be to support her, maintain family peace, and protect assets. I could be content, but would be unfulfilled.


I don't think you owe her any loyalty. If she has health issues or whatever, it isn't your problem. She's the one who was never in the marriage, she's the one who slept with her ex just before the wedding, she's the one who carried on an extensive EA.

Family peace is not your burden. If you're talking about your kids, they'll deal with it much better than you fear. If you're talking about extended family, well they aren't the ones who have to live the rest of their lives with what your wife did.

Financial, yeah that is big and real. But there is nearly always an acceptable solution. It will mean downsizing your lifestyle perhaps, but rarely is it devastating.

If it is devastating to the point you'll be living in a trailer and working until you're 90 yrs old, the other option is to call a truce and have an amicable open marriage, perhaps living in separate homes. This way she would be financially ok and taken care of in whatever way is needed, but you would be free to pursue an honest and fulfilling relationship with someone else.


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## TAMAT

Jethro,

I should add that although I said my Ws only gave me third rate sex, there were times when it was very good, but I suspect she thought about OM-1 when it was good. 

I say this because after I recovered my marriage in 2008, I believe my W began to feel guilty about thinking about OM-1 and even those rare moments of good sex disappeared. Oddly this was ok in a certain way because she was no longer emotionally faking it with me and I was no longer being lied to in the worst way possible. Women are not only able to fake orgasms but in some cases they fake an entire life. 

I'm still not sure what to do with OM-1.

Tamat


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## Chaparral

It's important to know what kind of sex life you and your wife have known through the years. Has it always been good?

Why did the two of them stay married and not get together with the "loves of their lives"?

Sounds to me like a fantasy they were both in. If in fact they did Get together and did not have sex, I believe they both knew they were just play acting. Not having sex when they had the chance is flat rare around here for emotional affairs. Long distance emotional affairs turn physical when the situation allows.

You knew what she did before marrying her. Take credit where it's due. How did your actions contribute to the marriage problems. Did you always hold her at arms length after the marriage?

Why did counseling fail?


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## GuyInColorado

Sounds like you have major resentment towards her, which I totally understand. Are you two having frequent and great sex? There must be something missing in order for you to dump this marriage so late in the game. If you are in good shape, you'll definitely be able to get laid by ladies 10-15 years younger, and eventually have a long term relationship with one. Is that your end goal?


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## Openminded

When I was in my mid-60's I ended a long marriage. I was under tremendous pressure from family and friends to stay married because no one likes to see long marriages fail. I explained that I wanted to be happy for whatever time remains of my life and if my very comfortable lifestyle took a substantial hit in order to do that then I was fine with that. As it turned out, my lifestyle most definitely did take a substantial hit from which I will never recover and I discovered that, yes, I really was fine with that. I am finally living a life that feels right to me and that's worth all I went through to get here. 

Many people in long marriages gamble that they'll be the survivor when their marriage ends naturally and that they'll still be healthy enough to enjoy life when that time comes. Sometimes it's true. Sometimes it's not. Are you willing to gamble?


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## Truthseeker1

turnera said:


> I didn't say it was fair. I just meant that there are other things to consider.


Agreed. You made excellent points in your post.


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## Mr Blunt

Jethro
You feel cheated and you are resentful; both of those make for a miserable life.

You have never felt that you were her number one man and she has given you good reason to feel that way. At best, you are number one now but you are number one by default. You are 100% confident that she will be faithful to you but you still have to deal with 30+ years of you not being her number one pick for years.

You wonder what would the next 25-30 years be like. With you still feeling cheated and resentful and not getting better you will be much unfulfilled as you have been for the last 30+ years.

You have stated some real reasons for staying with her as you stated
“… They would be to support her, maintain family peace, and protect assets. “ As for you wanting to support her, that tells me that you do have some feeling for her. As for family peace (Children and grandchildren), that is one that I have benefited from by me deciding to stay with my betrayer. However, my wife made me number one for over 20 years but later had one year she chose another man. That is when I divorced her and got everything that I wanted in the divorce. She never left the house, even after the divorce and now I am number one again. Your statement of “protect assets” means that you will compromise your feeling for your assets. I know that assets are no small matter at 55 years old and getting close to retirement. However, you seem to have enough assets that will give you a decent retirement even if you have to give your wife half. *Are the assets really a huge hurtle to get over?*

Your wife is to be pitied as she has emotional problems but her pitiful state will not help you have a more fulfilled life. It seems that you have at least three choices and I see them as:

1	Get much better with your resentments, get closer to other family members, get a hobby that you really enjoy, and stay with your wife that you are 100% sure that she will now be faithful. IOW get rid of the resentments and make the best out of your marriage and life.

2 If you do not get a LOT better with your resentments then tell your wife that she is not going to be your number one woman and that you are going to experiment with dating and other things to see if you can get a more fulfilled life. IOW, you are going to do for you even at the expense of your wife; just like she did for 30+ years. Depending on if you get a lot better then you may stay with her or live without her in your life. You get to choose.


3	Divorce her and see if that life that you desire with another person is going to fulfill you much more than your life is now.

Jethro, you have been a very patient and sacrificing man in your 30+ of marriage to a woman that felt that she should have had another man for many years and that you were number two at best.* How did you endure for 30+ years knowing that you were not number one?* That was quite a remarkable achievement that you could endure so much pain for so long!

I get the impression that your wife NOW wants to make you number one. However, if you want to get better you will have to get rid of the memories that remind you that you were not her number one for decades!

*You do what is best for you and do not make any apologies.*


----------



## Thor

Mr Blunt said:


> 2 If you do not get a LOT better with your resentments then tell your wife that she is not going to be your number one woman and that you are going to experiment with dating and other things to see if you can get a more fulfilled life. IOW, you are going to do for you even at the expense of your wife; just like she did for 30+ years. Depending on if you get a lot better then you may stay with her or live without her in your life. You get to choose.


Fascinating idea. I expect my wife would have been aghast at such a suggestion had I made it. The reason is she picked me in large part to be able to keep her secret life going. Or, to be less charitable to myself, she knew I would put up with a lot of **** other men would not have. Partly out of naivete, partly out of a FOI where I learned to blame myself or not let natural consequences accrue to the person responsible for the situation.

Maybe a simpler way to say it is a Cake Eater doesn't like it when the other person threatens the arrangement.



Mr Blunt said:


> *You do what is best for you and do not make any apologies.*


Yes, times 1000, and do it without any guilt.


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## harrybrown

Has she told the kids about her affairs?

Did she apologize to the widow of her OM?

Maybe time to tell her she opened up the marriage , now it is your turn.

If she is not fine with that, then file for D.

Then after the D, proceed with your plans.


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## Tatsuhiko

Jethro said:


> I don't think I would struggle to find female companionship if I were to re-enter the dating scene.


Successful, mid-50s male, with a solid history of fidelity? I agree. You'd find that woman who would consider you plan A and give you all the passion and romance that your wife robbed from your marriage. Get started on the D.


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## CantBelieveThis

Mr Blunt said:


> get a hobby that you really enjoy,




I tell you that was the key for me in making it thru R for 4.5 years so far, I picked up a hobby that I totally fell in love head over heals with to the point I can't find enough time to spend on it, it literally didn't allow my mind to think much about her A and all the resentment almost dissappeared, it really works works, but it has to be something you enjoy and always wanted to do, you should try it regardless of R or D.

Also it made me realize that life is way more than just your marriage relationship with another person, much bigger than that, it really took me some deep thinking for me to lower the scale on marriage evenly with my life dreams, one of them being my hobby. 
I realized marriage is just a fraction of life and that there were many other things to pursue and also that in the grand scheme of things I believe we are here in this world to help inch humanity forward in any way we can, and leave this world with something better than it had before you, even if ever so small.....


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## She'sStillGotIt

Jethro said:


> I can say with certainty that there haven't been others and I don't think there will be.


I''m always amazed at the naivete of people who claim they know - *100%* - that their partner has never cheated on them.

I'm reminded of a long ago friend who always exclaimed how her husband would never, ever cheat on her and he'd chew off his right arm first before ever cheating, and he was always disgusted when he'd learn of others cheating, and she was absolutely positive that he had never, ever strayed on her. She wasn't being smug, she just had 100% faith, just like you Jethro, that her spouse wouldn't cheat on her.

Only 2 weeks later we were all shocked to find out that her Prince Charming had been having an affair with the sister of one of our mutual friends for the last _*1.5 years*_.

Moral of the story: no one is 100% certain of ANYTHING when it comes to their spouse.


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## Dannip

Wow. Why the **** did I ever get married again. Anyway so far so good. 

OP? You've tolerated way more than I ever could. Not sure if that's good or not. 

Have her served and expose her behavior before she paints you as the devil incarnate. Telling others first will force them listen differently than you running and cleaning up her lies that are sure to come.


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## sokillme

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I''m always amazed at the naivete of people who claim they know - *100%* - that their partner has never cheated on them.
> 
> I'm reminded of a long ago friend who always exclaimed how her husband would never, ever cheat on her and he'd chew off his right arm first before ever cheating, and he was always disgusted when he'd learn of others cheating, and she was absolutely positive that he had never, ever strayed on her. She wasn't being smug, she just had 100% faith, just like you Jethro, that her spouse wouldn't cheat on her.
> 
> Only 2 weeks later we were all shocked to find out that her Prince Charming had been having an affair with the sister of one of our mutual friends for the last _*1.5 years*_.
> 
> Moral of the story: no one is 100% certain of ANYTHING when it comes to their spouse.


Not to mention that character flaws just don't go away, and past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. Some would argue that, to which I would say you can't say she doesn't have the potential to do it again. In this case you know she is capable of doing it, twice.


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## honcho

Jethro said:


> Thanks again, everyone, for your thoughtful comments and support. I think there are more layers to the situation that I should include. They don't really change anything, but they add texture to where things currently stand.
> 
> My wife has some challenges with her mental and emotional health that are both a factor in her affairs and in how I feel about staying with her now. She has been on anti-depressants for more than a decade, and they seem to have helped keep her from having as many intense outbursts of anger and anxiety.
> 
> Please recall that my D-day was nearly six years ago. In the months after discovery I did many things to deal with what happened and to help me heal. I actually drove the 350 miles to confront the OM face-to-face. I surreptitiously monitored her communications for several years. I also took many steps to work on me and since then I have continued to do things like work out regularly, watch my diet, and lift weights. I don't think I would struggle to find female companionship if I were to re-enter the dating scene.
> 
> In the months following discovery I also addressed a career plateau I had been experiencing and quickly had four job offers from which to choose. I accepted a position five years ago and have since been promoted. That job is located about three hours away from where we were living. To let our younger daughter finish HS, I commented back and forth most weeks. Now that our daughter is in college, my wife is the one doing most of the commuting. The time apart has given me lots of opportunity to think about where we are and whether I want to stay together.
> 
> What I am dealing with now is less about what she did and more about who we are and what the next 25-30 years will be like.


Components of your story are similar to my parents. Mom's infidelities, mental issues and throw alcoholism into the mix too. My dad took a different job 3 hours away after a corporate takeover. My young brother was still in high school so they kept home in town, he got an apartment and came home most weekends, eventually my mom would go down to him on weekends. 4 years later she wants to move to where he is living and he didn't really want that at all. 

The connection that had held them together was basically broken with all the time apart over the years. They had become stranger's to each other. He felt a responsibility to always take care of her which is why he hadn't divorced her years earlier. Now he did buy a house and my mom eventually moved to the city he was living but within a year he jumped at the chance for a promotion, mainly because it was out of the country. So mom stayed and he went to Rio. My mom couldn't work because of her issues and my father made a great deal of money. Divorce would have been an expensive proposition. 

Essentially he was content to just send her an "allowance" and also cover all the bills of her household. They lived that way for years married on paper only. They lived completely separate lives for the most part for 10 years or so. Unlike your story the old bf, high school love didn't die and my mom did divorce to be with him after 35+ years of marriage. That was an on and off affair for most of my life from what I understand. Ironically my mom filed because my dad got a gf.


----------



## Jethro

I can't express how grateful I am to all who have posted with such thoughtful and thought-provoking comments. 

I don't have time this evening to respond, but will try to do so later tonight or early tomorrow.

Thanks again.


----------



## SunCMars

Jethro said:


> Her EA was full blown. Lots of expressions of love and desire and wishing to be together. Expressions of sexual desire that she told him were feelings she had only for him and that she had never felt for any other man.
> 
> In our current circumstance she needs me for many reasons and I don't really need her. * My reasons for staying would not be for my happiness. Rather they would be to support her, maintain family peace, and protect assets. I could be content, but would be unfulfilled.*


These sentences are the most painful things any man can read. 

You wrote the bolded sentences above. You have clearly stated your current feelings and the current state of affairs. After her life long affair. 
...................................................................................................................................................................
She secretly deserted you while she was in her prime: 

Her breasts were upright and firm.
Her face had the glow of youth.
Her body was lean and strong.
Her skin was smooth, youthful and taut. 
Her eyes glistened with fervor.
Her smile and laughter was captivating. Full throated.
Her aura was at its highest glow.
Her sexual passion was strongest. Her youthful thighs could strongly hold you in place.
Her smell was youthful, needing no perfume, so sweet was she.
Her grip on your hard member was unforgettable.

This is how you remembered her until D-Day.
This is how she felt........reacted, yearned, ached....for the POSOM. Not for you.

She secretly deserted you while in her prime.
......................................................................................................................................
Now is your turn to desert her in her latter years.

When her breasts sag.
When her morning face is sallow.
When her body is plumping and soft. 
When her skin is sagging, covered with moles and age marks. Stretch marks from child birth.
When her Aura is darkening.
When her sexual passion is at its lowest ebb.
When her laughs are few and her complaints of aches and pain are at the highest.
When her grip on your hard member is still present. But only to keep it from fleeing. Diving into another life, another women.

Tell her that she abandoned you {in spirit} in your youth. *YOU KNOW she never loved you.*

And now you are abandoning her in her mature and aging years.
And you are going to find a loyal younger women to make up for the one that you never had. A women to love you and you her.

Tell her these things.....she will fall to the floor, wilt from massive tear loss.


----------



## SunCMars

Please...please, please TAM fans.

I love old ladies. I love their aging bodies.

I wrote the last post, not because I hate what happens to all of us when we age. No!

I want a proper end to her Reign of Error. Her total disrespect for her vows. Total disrespect for a decent husband and father of her children.

I want her last years to be ones of Reflection, of Rejection, of Retribution.

She is relatively young. She will get a new man....maybe. She will never get a man as good as this one. One that she secretly bent over a Cactus....all those years.

She lazily and selfishly lived a Lie...all those years.

Now let her live the Truth....the remaining years.


----------



## Jethro

To respond to some of the questions about our sex life, it has been complicated. My wife has always struggled with her body image and has been shy. This was true even in her 20s, when she was a beautiful 5’8 and an athletic 125 pounds. In fact, she has maintained her looks and figure well into her 50s. 

She has largely seen sex as a highly emotional connection and not so much a physical, lustful experience. She has never been able to achieve orgasm through PIV (something that she told me before our first encounter—so it is not just me), which meant I needed to become more attuned to pleasing her in other ways. Despite trying, I would say we were successful in achieving her orgasm about 50-75% of the time. She said it was difficult for her to relax enough to enjoy it. 

During our courtship and engagement, we had what I would call a healthy, romantic, and passionate sex life, though not particularly imaginative. She seemed to want me and I had a tremendous desire for her. I had confidence that we would grow together sexually in our marriage. My desire and confidence took a big hit after she slept with BF #1. After that I struggled to feel the passion and romance I had before. I struggled to feel like she still wanted me. 

My wife’s shyness, difficulty with orgasms, and my own confidence issues meant that we did not have a real honeymoon phase—at least not like I hear others having. Still, we maintained a pretty regular sex life early on, but that waxed and waned through the years as stresses of kids and careers entered the picture. Though I nearly always tried to make sure she was pleased, I often felt like sex was something we did for me—or we did it to maintain a level of closeness. I struggled with wanting to initiate for fear of rejection and because of my own lack of confidence. She would occasionally initiate, but it never felt to me that it was because she “wanted” me. Rather, I felt like it was more about our duty to the marital relationship.

After discovering her long term EA and some of the things she said to him, my confidence was shattered. It has taken several years for us to make progress in that arena. I would say that in some ways we are much more compatible sexually than we ever were. Part of that is, undoubtedly, due to age and her ability to relax more. Part is due to a conscious effort to make things better. Still, I often find myself having difficulty banishing thoughts that detract from my desire or my pleasure—or even my ability to finish. 

If I leave my wife it won’t be because I want to bed other women.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Your sex life isn't complicated at all. It sucks. And she was never as into you as you were her. That's never a good dynamic. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## turnera

So basically, you have two extremely insecure people who never fully engaged with each other, out of self protection, and you had a mildly strained relationship since before you got married. You were faithful but protected yourself emotionally. She wasn't faithful and got her emotional need met elsewhere and lied to you. Now you two are older, your insecurities don't drive the two of you as much as before, and you're stuck having to deal with knowing your wife wasn't who you thought she was: a person who had a one-time fling before tying the knot. 

You have a decent relationship and sex life and a burgeoning family, but your insecurities are keeping you from making a decision. 

How much therapy have you two done?


----------



## SunCMars

Jethro said:


> To respond to some of the questions about our sex life, it has been complicated. My wife has always struggled with her body image and has been shy. This was true even in her 20s, when she was a beautiful 5’8 and an athletic 125 pounds. In fact, she has maintained her looks and figure well into her 50s.
> 
> She has largely seen sex as a highly emotional connection and not so much a physical, lustful experience. She has never been able to achieve orgasm through PIV (something that she told me before our first encounter—so it is not just me), which meant I needed to become more attuned to pleasing her in other ways. Despite trying, I would say we were successful in achieving her orgasm about 50-75% of the time. She said it was difficult for her to relax enough to enjoy it.
> 
> During our courtship and engagement, we had what I would call a healthy, romantic, and passionate sex life, though not particularly imaginative. She seemed to want me and I had a tremendous desire for her. I had confidence that we would grow together sexually in our marriage. My desire and confidence took a big hit after she slept with BF #1. After that I struggled to feel the passion and romance I had before. I struggled to feel like she still wanted me.
> 
> My wife’s shyness, difficulty with orgasms, and my own confidence issues meant that we did not have a real honeymoon phase—at least not like I hear others having. Still, we maintained a pretty regular sex life early on, but that waxed and waned through the years as stresses of kids and careers entered the picture. Though I nearly always tried to make sure she was pleased, *I often felt like sex was something we did for me—or we did it to maintain a level of closeness.* I struggled with wanting to initiate for fear of rejection and because of my own lack of confidence. She would occasionally initiate, but it never felt to me that it was because she “wanted” me. Rather, I felt like it was more about our duty to the marital relationship.
> 
> After discovering her long term EA and some of the things she said to him, my confidence was shattered. It has taken several years for us to make progress in that arena. I would say that in some ways we are much more compatible sexually than we ever were. Part of that is, undoubtedly, due to age and her ability to relax more. Part is due to a conscious effort to make things better. Still, I often find myself having difficulty banishing thoughts that detract from my desire or my pleasure—or even my ability to finish.
> 
> If I leave my wife it won’t be because I want to bed other women.


She does not get that emotional rush from the slap-whap brush with you. 
Why? Her heart and feelings were forced. Though, I am sure she likes you. 
*She liked you...... she loved the other man. The one that got away.*

She is shy? Really?
I suspect it is her coolness towards you. A cool response that looks like a shy one. A tepid response to lovemaking. Oh, I know. Dutiful sex. And, over all those years, many instances of genuine pleasure. What?, one out of ten beddings? Yes, having difficulty attaining an orgasm is a bummer for any women. Her thinking, "Why bother if I cannot get off." A big consideration.

Think about this. 
When someone has a one night stand, most people will show some shyness, definitely feel it. The women or man may hide it, this reluctance "to let go" with a stranger. Aside from the grunts and moans, much of the rest is faked. Any orgasm attained is a boner-bonus, a veejay-victory. *Purely frictional pleasure....minus any emotion.*
Yes, I know, some men and women love ONS's and enjoy them. They are the minority.

The point is this:

She did not love you most of your marriage. She used you. She settled for you.
She professed love for another man for years and years, until he died. She told him that he was the only man that she really loved. This explains her retinence...HER SHYNESS with you.
SHE WAS SHY WITH YOU BECAUSE SHE LOVED ANOTHER MAN AND BECAUSE SHE HAD A GUILTY CONSCIOUS OVER HER DEMONSTRATED ACTIONS AND THOUGHTS.
She regretted not having PIV sex with her AP when he came to town. She wanted THIS, else why write it? By her writing this [to him] she BASICALLY was signaling to him [please return]. 
She strongly hinting to him IN "writing", that I want you to put your penis in me. I want to hold you naked...... in my arms Please consider coming back. He did not bite. He died the next year.....He "likely" would have done the deed if he was not [already?] sick. Maybe he had ED? He held back..........not her.


----------



## SunCMars

Leave her....

Justice demands it. 
...........................................................................................................
You do not want sex with another woman?

OK, how about a new love, a fluttering heart? This leads to intimacy and yes...sex!

You do not want friction with a women. NO!

You want to rub your heart on hers, your lips on hers, your sweaty belly on hers. You want the elation, the High that comes from a High Standing Peter, plunging in a loving, appreciative women. 

Not sex....Jethro....that is what your wife gave you.


----------



## alte Dame

I believe that there are millions of people in the world who are simply not as lucky as the people on this board. They take what life gives them and have no choice.

You are fortunate, Jethro. You have a choice. Why wouldn't you choose happiness for yourself? @SunCMars's vibrant description of older women notwithstanding , I will second what others have said about you discovering that there is love for you after a marriage like this.

P.S. - Not all older women are saggy. Just saying....


----------



## SunCMars

alte Dame said:


> I believe that there are millions of people in the world who are simply not as lucky as the people on this board. They take what life gives them and have no choice.
> 
> You are fortunate, Jethro. You have a choice. Why wouldn't you choose happiness for yourself? @SunCMars's vibrant description of older women notwithstanding , I will second what others have said about you discovering that there is love for you after a marriage like this.
> 
> P.S. - Not all older women are saggy. Just saying....


Ohhh!

Dag-Nabbit!

The things that come out of my mouth!! :surprise::surprise:

I rode my Ducati past your abode a while ago..... You were out sunning yourself.
Nope, no saddle bags on your porch...
...............................................................................................................
I want him to punish his wife for her life long errors. She never displayed real remorse.
Gave him wish-washy fuzzy hair-lip answers to his Why's?

I should have PM-ed that post to him. 

Older ladies rock...
Uh, they all rock...

I have no saddle bags either. Slows a man down. Am slow enough...mind you.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Jethro said:


> Based on my review of what they shared, I feel like much of our marriage has been a sham


Because it was. You've been cucked for the last 33 years. Your wife is a snake.



Jethro said:


> I am not sure I am ready to handle the aftermath of our divorce.
> 
> Am I just being a chickens**t?


Yes. Free yourself and AT LEAST spend your retirement years with some self respect.

Its the least you can do. You only have one life to live. Don't waste another second with this tramp.


----------



## sokillme

alte Dame said:


> I believe that there are millions of people in the world who are simply not as lucky as the people on this board. They take what life gives them and have no choice.
> 
> You are fortunate, Jethro. You have a choice. Why wouldn't you choose happiness for yourself? @SunCMars's vibrant description of older women notwithstanding , I will second what others have said about you discovering that there is love for you after a marriage like this.
> 
> P.S. - Not all older women are saggy. Just saying....


Even if they are, they're still boobs! Sorry lost myself there.


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## turnera

God, now I'm remembering all the years my dad had me sit and read Playboy with him. Remember Granny?


----------



## TaDor

Jethro, you are about 6~7 years older than me. You say you are fit and likely have a functional sex drive + 7-figures in the bank account... more than most people. Meeting new women should be easy for you.

I'd say, time for you to spend some of that money on YOURSELF. You marriage has been a lie since day one. Its been a few days since I left- but if I remember right - she has no desire to be with other men as long as you live. (hey, when you die - she'll get your money anyway- right? As a woman, she'll likely live another 10~15 years longer than you) and you don't really do much with each other anyway. Soooo... if divorce is not something either of you two want. Then just have a fake and open marriage.

For family / social events - you are together as usual and expected. Otherwise, just do what you want. You can easily date/have NSA sex with women who are 30yrs old, give or take a few years. There are some sugar-daddy sites that could be useful. You've lost 33 years of your life over a fake "LOVE" wife. Who cheated before you got married. So rent an apartment or something for $1500+ a month, its your bacherlor pad... whatever. You have another 5~10 good "young years" to be a playboy. Live it up.

I'd be like Richard Branson - go Kite surfing or jet ski with a naked hot chick on your back.


----------



## Taxman

Jethro
I don't often say this, but sir, you were cheated out of a marriage with passion love and respect by your wife. She cheated before the marriage, at that point I would have turned and run. And she cheated emotionally during the marriage. It is these two points that I would say to her, and tell her frankly that she cheated you out of your life, and now it is time for consequences.

Consequence: Do not divorce, it is too costly, separate permanently. Speak to an attorney, and find the most financially beneficial situation FOR YOU AND NOT HER. Give her an allowance, and begin moving assets to shield them. (When I look at the state of your marriage, essentially there was no marriage from the beginning, her actions shortly before negated that contract, so I consider that she was a leech on your finances for the entire length of the marriage, and therefore qualifies only for a courtesy stipend to survive) 

NEXT: Use SunCMars' brilliant post of two days ago as the starting point, and lay it all out, you are leaving her as a consequence of two affairs that have denied you both passion and a fulfilling sex life. Let her know that her affairs robbed you of a beautiful and passionate sex life, and now she comes to you old, used up, and emotionally crippled because she gave her soul, but not her body to someone other than you. (She made that little donation before you legally committed, so essentially anally raped you before marriage.)


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## bandit.45

Three plus decades is a long marriage to just throw away now. Even if it was a deeply flawed marriage, it still produced a family and future progeny. That right there is a win. As far as the relationship goes, I for one think you and your WW should get into some deep counseling, separately and together, and really work at the issues before you think about divorce.


----------



## bandit.45

turnera said:


> God, now I'm remembering all the years my dad had me sit and read Playboy with him. Remember Granny?


:surprise:


WHAT?


----------



## TDSC60

turnera said:


> God, now I'm remembering all the years my dad had me sit and read Playboy with him. Remember Granny?


Say what now????

Are you saying your Granny was a Playboy model? Playmate?


----------



## 3putt

TDSC60 said:


> Say what now????
> 
> Are you saying your Granny was a Playboy model? Playmate?


This made me LOL. I didn't interpret it that way. To be honest, though, I'm not sure how I interpreted it, but it certainly wasn't *that* way.


----------



## honcho

I'm sure she was referencing the granny cartoon character that occasionally appeared in playboy


----------



## turnera

TDSC60 said:


> Say what now????
> 
> Are you saying your Granny was a Playboy model? Playmate?


No, silly. The cartoons in Playboy about the old granny.


----------



## Nucking Futs

turnera said:


> No, silly. The cartoons in Playboy about the old granny.


What I thought you meant was way more entertaining that what you actually meant. Par for the course for me.:wink2:


----------



## Jethro

Thanks again, everyone, for giving me lots to think about. As several of you have mentioned, my situation is not as easy as "she cheated...I leave," no matter how interesting and compelling SunCMars makes single life sound. . 

Many of you have helped me crystalize my thinking on the matter. If I stay, it can’t be just out of loyalty or to support her. I have to do it because I feel it is the path that will bring me the most happiness and fulfillment. Right now and increasingly, I have doubts that staying will do that. 

I also agree that more counseling must be part of the process for deciding whether to stay or go. In fact, my wife has asked recently if I would be willing to go to counseling with her. I have said I would, but wanted her to choose the counselor. I’ve placed that condition for two reasons: 1) the last time we attempted counseling—more than 20 years ago—I had been the one to identify our counselor and my wife felt like the counselor took “my side,” as if I had manipulated the sessions. 2) if I put the responsibility for researching and selecting a counselor in her lap, it will be a gauge of her commitment to the process of working on our relationship in an honest and direct way.

So far, she has not taken any steps to find a counselor. My next step is to give her a deadline—probably 30 days—to do that. In the meantime, I will resume individual counseling. I have identified someone already and will try to set up a session in the next two weeks. By doing that, I hope to be further on the way to my own healing in the event we enter counseling or in the event she does not follow through and I must make the decision on staying or going.

Once more, I really appreciate all of the perspectives and comments. You have helped me sort through a lot of the jumble of thoughts and emotions I have been wrestling with. Thank you.


----------



## Thor

I don't think I would tell her a deadline to pick a counselor. Either she makes the effort of her own motivation or she doesn't. You should have some deadline in mind yourself, but I would not tell her what it is.


----------



## Mizzbak

Thor said:


> I don't think I would tell her a deadline to pick a counselor. Either she makes the effort of her own motivation or she doesn't. You should have some deadline in mind yourself, but I would not tell her what it is.


If the OP actually wants a resolution to this, then I think that covert contracts and secret deadlines that his wife is somehow supposed to discern and then meet to prove her commitment are bull****.


Wife - You know that I am not happy in our marriage. It is likely that you are not either. We cannot continue as we are. You asked whether I would attend counselling with you to address these issues and I agreed. The last time we tried counselling, I drove the process and you were not satisfied with the counsellor or process. And the outcome was not effective for either of us. Therefore I feel very strongly that you need to select our counsellor and drive this process. I am giving you x weeks to find a counsellor that you think we will both be comfortable with. These are the criteria that I would like met (gender, age, religious background (if appropriate) etc.). If you do not find a counsellor and make a booking for us in that time, I will reframe my views of our marriage and your commitment to making it work accordingly.​

Wires cannot be crossed when things are out in the open and unambiguous.


----------



## Thor

Mizzbak said:


> If the OP actually wants a resolution to this, then I think that covert contracts and secret deadlines that his wife is somehow supposed to discern and then meet to prove her commitment are bull****.
> 
> 
> Wife - You know that I am not happy in our marriage. It is likely that you are not either. We cannot continue as we are. You asked whether I would attend counselling with you to address these issues and I agreed. The last time we tried counselling, I drove the process and you were not satisfied with the counsellor or process. And the outcome was not effective for either of us. Therefore I feel very strongly that you need to select our counsellor and drive this process. I am giving you x weeks to find a counsellor that you think we will both be comfortable with. These are the criteria that I would like met (gender, age, religious background (if appropriate) etc.). If you do not find a counsellor and make a booking for us in that time, I will reframe my views of our marriage and your commitment to making it work accordingly.​
> 
> Wires cannot be crossed when things are out in the open and unambiguous.


I am not opposed to a conversation, but OP seems to want to see her show some genuine concern and genuine effort in repairing the marriage. I would be fine with the conversation above prior to "I am giving you x weeks .....". Let her know clearly that the ball is in her court and why.

What we tend to see with cheaters is they do the least amount necessary to keep the BS from leaving. If they know where the BS draws that line, they'll not go beyond it. This is false R, as it is not driven by true remorse or honest desire to make amends. If the WS knows MC is important to the BS, they should be making a strong effort to make it happen.

It's like the kid who has to read 5 pages for homework. If they are self motivated they will eagerly pick up the book, and then they'll read more than the 5 pages. If they're just ticking the box they'll wait until just before class starts and then they'll skim through the 5 pages.

The BS can set lax unstated timelines as a way to evaluate the sincerity of the WS' actions. It should be simple to find an MC within a week, and have an appointment scheduled for some time in the next few weeks. If she hasn't said anything in 2 weeks, he could casually inquire if she's still wanting to go to MC. She is the one who brought it up in the first place. If after a month she has done nothing, it would be a clear indication of a lack of interest on her part.


----------



## Truthseeker1

@Jethro - it sounds as if you have a solid plan. I like the fact that you are doing IC for yourself - so if your WW continues to stumble you are taking the steps to improve your own life. You are giving her a chance to rectify the situation and not rushing to D but know that D might be an option if she wont step up. I like this approach because it moves forward without being foolish or impulsive. In the meantime start doing things for yourself - like find a new hobby or activity - something that is just yours.

I do have a question do you think if the OM had lived she would have either had a long term physical affair or left for him?


----------



## azteca1986

Mizzbak said:


> If the OP actually wants a resolution to this, then I think that covert contracts and secret deadlines that his wife is somehow supposed to discern and then meet to prove her commitment are bull****.
> 
> Wires cannot be crossed when things are out in the open and unambiguous.


Exactly right. The OP should be leading by example. Making unilateral decisions that might end the relationship, and withholding key information from your partner are two things that got them in this mess in the first place.

Clear direct communication is paramount. I think he has a responsibility to himself to act as part of a team right up to the point he decides to end the union. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.


----------



## Mizzbak

Thor said:


> What we tend to see with cheaters is they do the least amount necessary to keep the BS from leaving. If they know where the BS draws that line, they'll not go beyond it. This is false R, as it is not driven by true remorse or honest desire to make amends. If the WS knows MC is important to the BS, they should be making a strong effort to make it happen.


I get where you're coming from, @Thor. I really do. Although, when this expectation becomes entrenched, is it really that surprising that we get what we expect? 

Being philosophical about this: we BS's can have such a strong need for that grand gesture, or some test our WS is supposed to pass to prove their renewed love and commitment. And these tests acquire such meaning and symbolism for us. And then we lose all hope when our WS doesn't deliver. And either we never even told them about it, or maybe we just didn't say how important it was to us. And there they were - putting all their energy into making sure that we never ran out of toilet paper. 

Maybe we need to face up to the fact that there cannot or should not be a great gesture. Or that investing the entire weight of our decision in a single action can be dangerous. And that rebuilding marriages happens painstakingly, not through gestures and tests, but honest word by honest word. And, of course, with actions. But the ones that come with and after communication, not before it. 

From my personal experience - it is very easy to read a lack of commitment where there is actually hesitancy because of worrying about doing the wrong thing. Or lack of love, where there is simply an awareness that one's romantic sincerity is already dubiously regarded.


----------



## BobSimmons

Jethro said:


> My next step is to give her a deadline—probably 30 days—to do that.


Take 5 minutes to look up counsellors and pick up a phone and book an appointment. If she took half as much energy into looking for a counsellor as she did into penning heartfelt correspondence to her AP it would have been done in a heartbeat.

Deadlines are an ultimatum she's had nearly six years of needing to fix this past just sorry.


----------



## turnera

One thing to remember is that we, here, totally understand the need for certain steps. But to the rest of the world, it's not just natural to everyone else. They need some help in getting all this. Nobody's going to naturally say 'oh, I'd better find a counselor in X weeks or he'll give up.'


----------



## Thor

Mizzbak said:


> I get where you're coming from, @Thor. I really do. Although, when this expectation becomes entrenched, is it really that surprising that we get what we expect?
> 
> Being philosophical about this: we BS's can have such a strong need for that grand gesture, or some test our WS is supposed to pass to prove their renewed love and commitment. And these tests acquire such meaning and symbolism for us. And then we lose all hope when our WS doesn't deliver. And either we never even told them about it, or maybe we just didn't say how important it was to us. And there they were - putting all their energy into making sure that we never ran out of toilet paper.
> 
> Maybe we need to face up to the fact that there cannot or should not be a great gesture. Or that investing the entire weight of our decision in a single action can be dangerous. And that rebuilding marriages happens painstakingly, not through gestures and tests, but honest word by honest word. And, of course, with actions. But the ones that come with and after communication, not before it.
> 
> From my personal experience - it is very easy to read a lack of commitment where there is actually hesitancy because of worrying about doing the wrong thing. Or lack of love, where there is simply an awareness that one's romantic sincerity is already dubiously regarded.


I don't disagree, but, it depends on the totality of the situation. I got all the right words out of my wife, finally, after many years. But zero action. Something that would have taken literally less than one minute to do but she couldn't bring herself to do it even after she had said she would, and she knew it was a really big deal to me. It was probably *the* one single thing which by itself would have erased decades of problems in the marriage due to her keeping a flame burning for an ex-bf. There were many other things she could have done which would have helped, but this one thing was the biggest.

And she chose to not do it.

Actions, not words, are what matter in healing a marriage from infidelity. If his W knows MC is important to him and that he wants her to pick the therapist due to past history, then she needs to find the initiative within herself to make it happen, not do it under some threat from him. She needs to understand the level of importance different things have to him so that she can prioritize important things rather than worry about how many spare rolls of toilet paper are in the cabinet.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Her EA was full blown. Lots of expressions of love and desire and wishing to be together. Expressions of sexual desire that she told him were feelings she had only for him and that she had never felt for any other man--which kicked me in the gut when I saw them. She also seemed, as was suggested by SunCMars to have been willing to be more intimate with him if he had wanted to. They expressed that they had parts of each other that belonged only to them. She told him she thought of him all of the time and she clearly knew that what she was doing was a betrayal to me.


Jethro
You seem to be in more need of her affection and love than she is of you; that makes you the less powerful in the relationship… I wonder why you are so willing to take such brutal emotional abuse for so long…I hope your IC helps you to be more self-sufficient and not be as co-dependent on her as you are.

I know that men are not all the same but I would never allow any woman to make me number 3, 4, or 5 in their life for decades. My wife made me number 2 in her world and I divorced her and got back my self-respect that she damaged for a few months.

You had a woman that screwed another man two weeks before you married her and then made you number 3, 4, or 5 for 30 YEARS!...*How are you able to endure that?...How damaged is your self esteem?*


----------



## Jethro

I thought I’d add a little more context and address some of the questions/assertions that have been made.

I realize that to some I look naïve and gutless and, to others, I seem rash and impulsive in how I am approaching this situation.

First, my self-esteem is intact in large part because I can say I have been successful as a father and in my career. My relationship with my wife has threatened that esteem as I have indicated below, but in the past six years I have done much to regain it. It isn't completely healed, but that is part of my struggle in making this decision.

Second, I am confident that another affair is an unlikely occurrence because my wife isn’t the type to have her head turned by every good-looking guy who pays her attention. Her affairs were with people with whom she shared a romantic past. In the one case, he is dead. In the other, BF #1, I have no evidence that they have been involved in any way since we have been married. I have also seen evidence of her deflecting or rebuffing others who have hit on her via email or on FB. I also think she knows now, more than ever, that she is fortunate to have me—and she admitted that I dominate the other two guys in so many ways—which is part of her shame.

Third, I don’t think she and BF #2 would have ended up married by now for many reasons. The biggest indicator is that they had voluntarily cut-off communication a few months before I discovered their EA. He admitted as much when I went to confront him a few weeks after discovering their EA. 

They also both recognized and told each other that they would not fit together in a “real” relationship for lots of reasons. The attraction (the fantasy) was there and if they had been in closer proximity, I think it might have grown into a full on PA in 2006 or 2007, but after that point things took on a less intense tone. After about 2007 I would say they both thought of their connection as an escapist fantasy, not as a pretext to a real-life relationship. Occasionally, he would test the waters to see if she might be interested in another meet-up, but she deflected, demurred, or avoided the question. I see no evidence that she ever pressed him for a face-to-face meeting. I think eventually, he was hoping for one last adventure and she did not want to risk (any more than she already had) her real life situation.

Two nights ago, fueled by the comments from this thread, I once again broached the subject of her betrayals. I also told her that I still harbor a great deal of anger towards her—anger that prevents me from wanting to move on with her. I pressed her again on why she had slept with BF #1 before the wedding. I repeated my theory that she either wanted him to ask her not to marry me or, in telling me about what happened, wanted me to call off the wedding, so she would be off the hook. When neither of those things happened, she had no choice but to go through with the wedding. 

She didn’t affirm my theory, but she said some things about that encounter that she hadn’t before. She admitted to having more reservations about our marriage than she had been letting on—beyond the typical pre-marital jitters that many experience—and she felt she needed to talk with someone about her feelings. She chose him, in large part because, in addition to being her first serious relationship, he had been her “best friend” for those years. She thought that he, more than anyone else, would understand what she was wrestling with. She also didn’t want to confess such concerns to siblings for fear it would taint their thoughts on our marriage (or, as I think, that they would see her as not ready to be married, which would mean that they would not “approve” of our union). What she told me was, in my opinion, a confirmation of my theory of her motivations.

Last night we were apart. She was at our house where she lives during the week and I was at the house three hours away, where I work. I took the opportunity to look back through correspondence we had shared in the weeks before our wedding. I was starting a new job in another state and at that time long-distance calls were a luxury, so we tended to write a lot of letters to each other. I saw in those letters a profuse proclamation of the kind of effusive, romantic love and desire that was taken from me after she slept with BF #1. Her letters to me were sexy, passionate, and what I would have expected from a woman who was very much in love. I also saw that we both had some pre-wedding jitters—more her than me, but I had them too. With 30+ years’ hindsight, I should have seen that the relationship was vulnerable to what happened. That isn’t an excuse for her, it is just a recognition of the reality of that time. 

I understand and appreciate some of the more direct comments that have been made and appreciate your desire to slap me across the face with my reality. Even so, most of such comments are reacting to the affairs. While I admit that her affairs are and have been seminal events in the course of our marital relationship, my decision is less about the betrayals and retribution and more about an assessment of whether a continued relationship with her would bring me happiness—even if the affairs were out of the picture. In accounting terms, the affairs are sunk costs. The real question is whether this is a woman and relationship in which I want to invest the next 25-30+ years. The affairs are data, but there are other data points to consider in looking ahead. I don’t see leaving her because of the affairs or because I fear she will have other affairs. I don’t see leaving her to marry someone else or to bed 30- or 40-something hotties. I see leaving her because I don’t know that being with her is my best option for happiness in the remainder of my life.


----------



## Mizzbak

Jethro said:


> While I admit that her affairs are and have been seminal events in the course of our marital relationship, my decision is less about the betrayals and retribution and more about an assessment of whether a continued relationship with her would bring me happiness—even if the affairs were out of the picture. In accounting terms, the affairs are sunk costs. The real question is whether this is a woman and relationship in which I want to invest the next 25-30+ years. The affairs are data, but there are other data points to consider in looking ahead. I don’t see leaving her because of the affairs or because I fear she will have other affairs. I don’t see leaving her to marry someone else or to bed 30- or 40-something hotties. I see leaving her because I don’t know that being with her is my best option for happiness in the remainder of my life.


If you were not with your wife, how do you see your life being different in a way that would make you happier? 
Or alternately - how do you feel that your marriage is preventing you from being happy right now?


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## JohnA

I think you have expressed the answers to your questions in your own post with a profound elegance. Go back and read your own posts. The question is why you cannot accept them. 

Your posts and your journey though life and marriage echoes River Rat. Thank you for sharing.


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## JohnA

Oh, harbor anger for you wife, or pain from the lost and anger with yourself for not having the strength to move on?


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## Mr Blunt

> The real question is whether this is a woman and relationship in which I want to invest the next 25-30+ years. I see leaving her because I don’t know that being with her is my best option for happiness in the remainder of my life.



You say that her affairs and your fears about her cheating again are not enough for you to leave her. However, you are negatively affected by her affairs and you being not being number one. What you want is to be happy.

*Your best option for happiness have a few HUGE obstacles that you admitted. You are angry and bitter and those two kill happiness*.


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## sokillme

Jethro said:


> I thought I’d add a little more context and address some of the questions/assertions that have been made.
> 
> I realize that to some I look naïve and gutless and, to others, I seem rash and impulsive in how I am approaching this situation.
> 
> First, my self-esteem is intact in large part because I can say I have been successful as a father and in my career. My relationship with my wife has threatened that esteem as I have indicated below, but in the past six years I have done much to regain it. It isn't completely healed, but that is part of my struggle in making this decision.
> 
> Second, I am confident that another affair is an unlikely occurrence because my wife isn’t the type to have her head turned by every good-looking guy who pays her attention. Her affairs were with people with whom she shared a romantic past. In the one case, he is dead. In the other, BF #1, I have no evidence that they have been involved in any way since we have been married. I have also seen evidence of her deflecting or rebuffing others who have hit on her via email or on FB. I also think she knows now, more than ever, that she is fortunate to have me—and she admitted that I dominate the other two guys in so many ways—which is part of her shame.
> 
> Third, I don’t think she and BF #2 would have ended up married by now for many reasons. The biggest indicator is that they had voluntarily cut-off communication a few months before I discovered their EA. He admitted as much when I went to confront him a few weeks after discovering their EA.
> 
> They also both recognized and told each other that they would not fit together in a “real” relationship for lots of reasons. The attraction (the fantasy) was there and if they had been in closer proximity, I think it might have grown into a full on PA in 2006 or 2007, but after that point things took on a less intense tone. After about 2007 I would say they both thought of their connection as an escapist fantasy, not as a pretext to a real-life relationship. Occasionally, he would test the waters to see if she might be interested in another meet-up, but she deflected, demurred, or avoided the question. I see no evidence that she ever pressed him for a face-to-face meeting. I think eventually, he was hoping for one last adventure and she did not want to risk (any more than she already had) her real life situation.
> 
> Two nights ago, fueled by the comments from this thread, I once again broached the subject of her betrayals. I also told her that I still harbor a great deal of anger towards her—anger that prevents me from wanting to move on with her. I pressed her again on why she had slept with BF #1 before the wedding. I repeated my theory that she either wanted him to ask her not to marry me or, in telling me about what happened, wanted me to call off the wedding, so she would be off the hook. When neither of those things happened, she had no choice but to go through with the wedding.
> 
> She didn’t affirm my theory, but she said some things about that encounter that she hadn’t before. She admitted to having more reservations about our marriage than she had been letting on—beyond the typical pre-marital jitters that many experience—and she felt she needed to talk with someone about her feelings. She chose him, in large part because, in addition to being her first serious relationship, he had been her “best friend” for those years. She thought that he, more than anyone else, would understand what she was wrestling with. She also didn’t want to confess such concerns to siblings for fear it would taint their thoughts on our marriage (or, as I think, that they would see her as not ready to be married, which would mean that they would not “approve” of our union). What she told me was, in my opinion, a confirmation of my theory of her motivations.
> 
> Last night we were apart. She was at our house where she lives during the week and I was at the house three hours away, where I work. I took the opportunity to look back through correspondence we had shared in the weeks before our wedding. I was starting a new job in another state and at that time long-distance calls were a luxury, so we tended to write a lot of letters to each other. I saw in those letters a profuse proclamation of the kind of effusive, romantic love and desire that was taken from me after she slept with BF #1. Her letters to me were sexy, passionate, and what I would have expected from a woman who was very much in love. I also saw that we both had some pre-wedding jitters—more her than me, but I had them too. With 30+ years’ hindsight, I should have seen that the relationship was vulnerable to what happened. That isn’t an excuse for her, it is just a recognition of the reality of that time.
> 
> I understand and appreciate some of the more direct comments that have been made and appreciate your desire to slap me across the face with my reality. Even so, most of such comments are reacting to the affairs. While I admit that her affairs are and have been seminal events in the course of our marital relationship, my decision is less about the betrayals and retribution and more about an assessment of whether a continued relationship with her would bring me happiness—even if the affairs were out of the picture. In accounting terms, the affairs are sunk costs. The real question is whether this is a woman and relationship in which I want to invest the next 25-30+ years. The affairs are data, but there are other data points to consider in looking ahead. I don’t see leaving her because of the affairs or because I fear she will have other affairs. I don’t see leaving her to marry someone else or to bed 30- or 40-something hotties. I see leaving her because I don’t know that being with her is my best option for happiness in the remainder of my life.


You write that like that clarifies anything. Everyone has pre-wedding jitters, they don't **** ex-boyfriends. You say you should have seen she was about to cheat, why? What kind of person is she that you have to be clairvoyant enough to prevent her from cheating days before you get married?!? When you are in the planning stages of your wedding that should be some of the most intense loving periods in you whole relationship, and she cheated right in the middle of that. What's her thoughts on the wedding day, are they clouded by thoughts of this guy? How could she say the vows knowing she had just done such an awful thing, wasn't she wracked with guilt? Was he there, I forget? Did she continue to see him afterwords? To me it looks like you wife just don't think fidelity is a big deal. 

Then she cheated again with another boyfriend. I know this one was only an emotional affair so you have given her a pass on that one too. If you are willing to put of with your serial cheater wife then do it, but don't act like there is some justification for her ****ty treatment of you. Let me warn you again, I think you are wrong if you think she isn't capable of cheating again. She already did it twice and right in the honeymoon stage of your relationship. What has she done to change, basically all your telling us is that she isn't close to anyone right now so it won't happen again. Doesn't mean she won't be close to someone one day, it may happen without her even knowing at first. Even faithful people meet people who they have great chemistry with and end up being attracted to. The difference is they don't act on impulse. You wife does. Unless she does the work and learns good boundaries it will always be in her nature. Don't say no one warned you. 

What is SO great about her really? From your posts it's really hard to see. Basically she has been pretty much a terrible wife assuming you feel fidelity is a big part of the equation. She also doesn't seem like a very good person. Good people don't cheat on their boyfriends because of jitters, and even if they do they feel guilty about and vow never to do it again. This is not your wife. Since we are talking sunk cost, she is a junk bond, It won't be very hard to do better. It's been 6 years and you haven't gotten over it yet since you are still posting on here, not sure why you expect it to get any better. If you can't get past this then it looks pretty clearly like a sunk cost fallacy to me, a 6 year one at this point. 

It's your life.


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## JustTheFacts

Just out of curiosity. do you remember what her reaction was to the death of the OM? Did she go to the funeral?


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## Jethro

Mizzbak, you ask an interesting question and I have actually gone through this exercise during a previous bout of online counseling, except that she asked me to project forward 10 years. Here is what I told her:

“I will be in my mid-60s and still working, assuming my health and performance allow it. I will likely be in a similar job, though possibly with a different employer and a different part of the country. As it does now, my work will keep me very busy, with lots of evening and weekend engagements.

My daughters will still keep in touch, though I will see them less than I used to. Part of that will be their need to divide their time between their mother and me and part will be to the natural progression of their maturity and independence.

I will be completely comfortable with my independence, except for those rare situations when my path crosses with my wife's, such as family celebrations. The awkwardness on my part will likely have faded somewhat over the decade, but my wife will maintain hard feelings toward me and try to avoid having to interact with me.

Financially, I will be a little less well-off, but my feeling of control will increase and my stress about finances will be much less. (My wife tends to spend money—retail, or online, therapy.)

Decisions that were painful to make with my wife will be much easier and less stressful. (We often struggle to make decisions together in part because I am a “let’s get it done and move on” type and she labors over decisions. It took us 10 years to find a bedroom suite that she liked.)

My life will be more orderly, more peaceful, and more enjoyable. I will probably drink a little less and workout a little more. I will probably pick up a new hobby or pastime.

I have no doubt that I will not have remarried. I will likely have a female friend with whom I maintain a comfortable, yet not terribly serious relationship. She will accompany me to social functions on occasion and we may even be intimate, but we will maintain separate lives in other ways. I will enhance existing or develop new social ties and will not want for ways to spend my time outside of work.

On a day-to-day basis I will manage my basic needs, like cooking, laundry, etc., and will have some help for things like housecleaning, yard work, etc. 

I say all of this with confidence because it reflects how it is now during my time on my own each week.”

I also told my therapist that as I reread what I wrote, it looks like a rosy scenario. I know it will be a struggle to get to the situation 10 years out as I described. It will be awkward and difficult breaking up many aspects of the life we have built together.*

But, I think it will be a lot easier to do it given the separateness of our current existence. She could stay in the house we co-own and maintain her current job. I would provide her with enough support to cover the costs of living there. I would stay in my current house in the city where I work. We don't have a lot of friends who are couples, and we wouldn't be in the same town, so there won't be that odd social dynamic for either of us to deal with.

I also know there will be things I will miss about being with my wife. I will miss those times when she is excited about something and her energy is infectious. I will miss having someone who has shared so much of my history as a sounding board for or affirmation of my experiences and decisions. And, I will miss having her to sleep next to.

I know all of this and I am still pretty sure that my life would be better on my own, just as I think her life will be worse without me--at least for the first few years. My great fear is that she will go into a serious depression, will lose her ability to function in her everyday life, and will end up financially ruined and very bitter. And, in doing so, she will push away the one or two siblings with whom she still has a positive relationship. Worse yet, she will push away our daughters, leading to even more isolation.

I may be exaggerating the impact our divorce would have on her. It could have the opposite effect--it could be the impetus for her to blossom--but I don't think that is likely. She will think that others, including her family, my family, our daughters, and most of the people we know in both towns, will blame her for break-up of our marriage. While, as you all have seen, there is definitely truth in her being the one to blame, that would not be something I would intend to make public. (I know that some of you think I should, but how would that help anything if I am making the break and moving on?) 

My prognostication of my wife’s reaction is based on knowing how she thinks and seeing how she has responded to a situation with her siblings five years ago and how it has embittered her toward some of them.


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## Jethro

To respond to a few other specific questions/comments:

JohnA: Exactly. That is what I see as my quandary. Do I see a path to get through the anger I feel toward her so that I can stay? Honestly, that path is becoming increasingly narrower and I am trying to assess whether it is still viable. Part of that, to me anyway, is based on whether she wants to make counseling a priority for us. If that doesn’t happen, I am not sure there is a path forward.

Mr. Blunt, you are absolutely correct. My anger needs to be addressed—one way or another--which is why I will be back in counseling in addition to whatever marriage counseling we pursue.

Sokillme, I don’t think you got my point. I am beyond divorcing her because of the affairs, per se. I wasn’t excusing her behavior then or now. What I was saying is that even if I was blindsided the first time, I should have seen it coming the second time. The conditions have changed and now, rightly or wrongly, I don’t think she will have another affair, so that is not a reason to divorce, either. What I am dealing with is my anger about the dishonesty in our marriage and the dynamic of our relationship it spawned which, combined with other issues, makes me question whether I can be happier with her or without her. 

JustTheFacts, when she found out, through a mutual FB friend, she called me and asked me to come home for lunch and, a bit teary-eyed, she told me it had happened. (I actually already knew because at that time I was regularly monitoring her FB account and had seen the message. I still monitor it to this day, but not as often.) I asked and she did not want to go to the funeral. I would say she had a couple of days when she was more taciturn and withdrawn, but she didn’t seem too out of sorts. I noted that she had followed some of the news stories surrounding his accidental death in the days that followed, but she was not visiting his FB page anymore.


As a side note, is anyone else experiencing issues with this site? When I try to type in the comments box, it is tortuously slow. I have been typing in Word and pasting to avoid that problem. I am using a 2015 MacBook Air and the latest OS. I have the issue whether I am using Safari or Chrome. I think my browsers and extensions are all updated. Sometimes, if I leave the page open for more than a few minutes in Chrome, it crashes completely.


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## pbj2016

Jethro said:


> As a side note, is anyone else experiencing issues with this site? When I try to type in the comments box, it is tortuously slow. I have been typing in Word and pasting to avoid that problem. I am using a 2015 MacBook Air and the latest OS. I have the issue whether I am using Safari or Chrome. I think my browsers and extensions are all updated. Sometimes, if I leave the page open for more than a few minutes in Chrome, it crashes completely.



Nothing to worry about. It is just the spyware she installed to keep track of you keeping track of her.


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## JohnA

Again the answer is clear in your own posts. You just do not want to own up to it. 

Saw a movie decades ago. In it the wife keeps going back to her adulterous partner. Leaving the husband knowing where she was going but he loved her and kept taking her back. They divorced, he remarried and later divorced giving the 2nd wife a very large amount of money. The first ex why was she got a large settlement. He shrugged and said I felt bad for her I only married her because just once I wanted to feel like someone who a woman felt about the way you did about POS, it was nice. The movie was "funny Lady" a sequel to "funny girl". The POS was Omar Sharif. 

I think this is what you want too, and your wife cannot/will not give it to you. You want what she gave to POS. She gave it partially to you once before you married but took it back giving it to POS.


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## Mr Blunt

> I see leaving her because I don’t know that being with her is my best option for happiness in the remainder of my life.


You have stated several times that your main interest now is about your happiness for the future. The main question by you is; should I stay with my wife or separate? Most posters agree with your own statement below:



> I know all of this and I am still pretty sure that my life would be better on my own


I understand that separating from your wife is emotionally hard but at least you logically know that your best chances of happiness would be to separate. Like other posters on this forum you have the choice to act on emotions or logically. No matter what you choose I hope that we on this TAM forum can be of some help to you. You have put a lot of thought into your situation and I hope that you make a decision in the very near future as being in an indecisive state with your anger and bitterness makes for a very unhappy life.


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## MJJEAN

Jethro said:


> As a side note, is anyone else experiencing issues with this site? When I try to type in the comments box, it is tortuously slow. I have been typing in Word and pasting to avoid that problem. I am using a 2015 MacBook Air and the latest OS. I have the issue whether I am using Safari or Chrome. I think my browsers and extensions are all updated. Sometimes, if I leave the page open for more than a few minutes in Chrome, it crashes completely.


Are you using a good ad blocker? I had the same issues until I added an ad blocker to Chrome. Smooth sailing since.

Personally, I'd just divorce. Divorce severs any possible legal and financial liability for the choices of the other spouse.


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## JohnA

My last post should have indicated both OM1 & OM2.

Took my advise to you and began to re-read your posts. Picked up on "mental and emotional issues" and on another later post "on anti-depression meds last 6 years" "lot less angry outbursts". Is she seeing a psychiatrist or a psychoanalyst? 

Wether you discuss hear or with an IC I sense this has placed a huge burden on the marriage and if not dealt with the issue will haunt your post divorce life.

Any chance your wife was adopted or a parent was BPD or cluster B


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## Thor

I am now using a browser called Brave on my Mac. It has built in ad blockers and runs quite smoothly on this site. Much better than Safari or IE.


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## sokillme

Boy have you have shown her a lot more respect and loyalty then she has shown you. You want to support her like any man wants to do for his wife, she seems to have used you for that support. The imbalance is stark. Not sure how you can not be angry about that. I mean she calls you when her affair partner dies and expects you to come home an comfort her. She is lucky I would be gone like I was shot out of a cannon.

As far as your 10 year projection, I don't think you have any experience with what it is like to be in a relationship with someone who is as emotionally invested in the relationship as you are. I think you would be pleasantly surprised. Imagine you have an issue and it is your wife who brings it up and is anxious to fix it. Imagine not always having to be the emotional leader, dragging a horse to water so to speak, but actually having a partner who is just as motivated to monitor the emotional health of the relationship. I truly think a lot of people stay because they don't know any better. 

Browser: use firefox with add blocker, and no script.


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## Jethro

pbj2016 said:


> Nothing to worry about. It is just the spyware she installed to keep track of you keeping track of her.


Good one, pbj2016!


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## Jethro

Thanks, all, for the additional comments and for the browser advice. I installed AdBlock and it seems to be doing the trick so far.

JohnA, that is a very insightful question. Her mother experienced a severe post partum depressive episode following the birth of her sister, when my wife was one. The episode was so bad that her mother was institutionalized for a period and my wife and her four siblings (all five under the age of 7) had to spend several months in an orphanage so her father could continue working. Her mother had electroconvulsive therapy and that seemed to help. 

So, I suspect she may be genetically predisposed to bouts of depression. In addition, I think there are two other factors that have contributed negatively to her psychology. First is the whole orphanage experience itself and the impact of maternal deprivation. Second is the fact that my wife is a classic middle child (fourth of eight--her mom would go on to have three more children within a few years). I am the oldest of four and there are many times when she and I interpret situations with people very differently. She tends to be secretive and has difficulty being generous to others. In fact, her tendency toward secrecy with her siblings is partly to blame for a falling out that occurred a few years ago.

I've mentioned that she often has difficulty making decisions--which can drive me nuts. In addition, she is a textbook example of buyer's remorse. I've often joked with sales reps not to cash their commission checks on her purchases. 

Another contributing factor to her mental state and the start of our marital relationship is that the day we returned from our honeymoon her parents told us that her mother had cancer. This was as we were about to move 350 miles away. It devastated her to be so far away and I think she resented me because we were. Her mother passed away less than four years later, when my wife was 8 months pregnant with our first daughter.

She has a much shorter fuse than I--and there were periods in our marriage when I felt like she actually despised me. Her recognition of her harshness with me and, to a lesser extent our daughters, is what prompted her to ask her physician about medication. She has been on four different types for a total of nearly 15 years. The medication has helped, but her tendency to become defensive and to flare quickly is still there.

She isn't currently seeing a therapist but has done so periodically--most recently 2013-2016. In my opinion the therapy did not help her. It mainly reinforced her interpretation of events and circumstances.

I say these things not to excuse her behavior, but to help understand "why" things happened and why I often felt we were so out of sync.


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## InspiralImplode

Hmmm this is a hard one. If you feel like she is committed to you for the past several years and you are still in love with her... maybe you need to find a way to forgive. Especially, if you have known all along and stayed anyways. Otherwise, you can't punish her for the rest of her life.


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## TDSC60

Jethro said:


> As a side note, is anyone else experiencing issues with this site? When I try to type in the comments box, it is tortuously slow. I have been typing in Word and pasting to avoid that problem. I am using a 2015 MacBook Air and the latest OS. I have the issue whether I am using Safari or Chrome. I think my browsers and extensions are all updated. Sometimes, if I leave the page open for more than a few minutes in Chrome, it crashes completely.


Yes. I get the same reaction at times on this site and I also use Chrome. Sometimes I just have to shut it down and logon again. Not sure why. Malware??


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## turnera

Jethro said:


> To respond to a few other specific questions/comments:
> 
> JohnA: Exactly. That is what I see as my quandary. Do I see a path to get through the anger I feel toward her so that I can stay? Honestly, that path is becoming increasingly narrower and I am trying to assess whether it is still viable. Part of that, to me anyway, is based on whether she wants to make counseling a priority for us. If that doesn’t happen, I am not sure there is a path forward.


Sometimes we tell people that if you have to question whether they're really 'all in' to get the relationship back, then they're not. If getting you back is their priority, _you will know_. It will be so obvious you won't even have to question it.


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## JohnA

It seems you represent stability in a world of chaos. I get the sense she lives in fear, that you are a the person she should be / must be married to not necessarily she would want. It is the fear of chaos that drives her, not love. I agree she most likely not engage in adultery again. 

How would describe her parenting and relationship with your children?

Thank you for you in depth answer, it clarifies a lot.


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## TheTruthHurts

Resentment kills love. It causes us to rewrite history in a negative light.

Regardless of your decision about your marriage you must deal with this

I'm no shrink, but I suspect we continue to resent someone or something when we think about a situation, feel the injustice, and internally need to see the injustice addressed. Until then WE harbor and hang onto the resentment. WE fuel it with our memories and we amplify it with our sense of injustice over what was lost.

Can you accept what was lost? Can you accept that it was as bad as you imagined and still let it go? Can you imagine that it wasn't as bad as you painted in your mind and maybe as you held the loss in your mind, she had moved on and didn't actually continue to cause injury (I'm painting both pictures because we can't know the past - but either way you have to move on)?

I think this doesn't have anything to do with your W anymore. You speak of your wife's penchant for buyers remorse, yet that's what you are experiencing. You vacillate between feeling buyers remorse, then intellectualizing and rationalizing it until the dissonance isn't so pronounced. But you feel wronged and it bounces back to the forefront

Rather than allowing yourself to feel emotion, experience grief, express sorrow over your loss... I believe you've hardened your resolve, maintained dual physical addresses and literally separated yourself from your problems.

Look objectively at this. You're a smart guy. You're your own worst enemy. It's because you can keep using your intellect to protect yourself from your feelings.

I wonder what would happen if you let this go... if you stopped intellectualizing and instead admitted that you have been - hurt. Yep I wonder if admitting hurt is the real problem.

I realize I'm putting together quite an assessment from anonymous texts with very little emotional content. Yet the more I go down this path I really wonder if allowing yourself to feel, admit hurt, show grief, share your vulnerability... might not be what she needs too.

Women often need to see emotion to recognize your point of view. Idk just a hunch


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Martins97

How old are you? Do you have kids? Why are you afraid?


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Martins97 said:


> How old are you? Do you have kids? Why are you afraid?


C'mon, Martins97. If you can't be bothered to read the first page of a thread, do you really want to weigh in?


----------



## Martins97

Tatsuhiko said:


> C'mon, Martins97. If you can't be bothered to read the first page of a thread, do you really want to weigh in?


Ofcourse I did but I couldn't help notice the tone of the writer is that of a fearful one-a fear of uncetainity


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## Martins97

Okay so she cheated with a few of her former lovers and you forgave her....now the former lover is dead and you feel fearful in your heart.

Since you forgave her,shouldn't you just move on regardless of the fact that she told you all or she excluded some.You caught her cheating on two occassions,did you bother to find out why she did what she did?.......NO! instead you forgave her.

Here is a piece of advice for you to enjoy your marriage:Sit her down and assure her you love her and as such would not want her to do any harm to you and do not forget to also assure her that she can completely trust you with matters affecting her;make her feel more comfortable having you around and if truely there's more.Your loving actions will make her guilt spill it out

You should not fear-for christ sake you married her,man up and treat her nice.Fact is a woman only cheats when she is not getting enough of whatever she ought to get from her man.Communicate more and in time old wounds will heal because it so evident that although you have "claim to have forgiven her",you are still hurt by her actions and yet to truely "forgive or forget" her errors.Until you learn to do this;you cannot enjoy your marriage,neither can she or your kids(if you have one)......Be a man and "grab your balls" and love her,show her support----be her BESTFRIEND!!!

Good Luck,


----------



## Andy1001

Martins97 said:


> Okay so she cheated with a few of her former lovers and you forgave her....now the former lover is dead and you feel fearful in your hear.
> 
> Since you foegave her,shouldn't you just move on regardless of the fact that she told you all or she excluded some.You caught her cheating on two occassions,did you bother to find out why she did what she did?.......NO! instead you foegave her.
> 
> Here is a piece of advic efor you to enjoy your marriage:Sit her down and assure her you love her and as such would not want her to do any harm to you and do not forget to alsoassure her that she can completely trust you with matters affecting her;make her feel more comfortable having you arond and if truely there's more.Your loving actions will make her guilt spill it out
> 
> You should not fear-for christ sake you married her,man up and treat her nice.Fact is a woman only cheats when she is not getting enough of whatever she ought to get from her man.Communicate more and in time olod wounds will heal because it so evident that although you have "claim to have forgiven her",you are still hurt by her actions and yet to truely "forgive or forget" her errors.Until you learn to do this;you cannot enjoy your marriage,neither can she or your kids(if you have one)......Be a man and "grab your balls" and love her,show her support----be her BESTFRIEND!!!
> 
> Good Luck,


Whatever you are taking,stop.
And learn how to spell.


----------



## Jethro

JohnA said:


> How would describe her parenting and relationship with your children?


Hi JohnA:

She has had a complicated relationship with our daughters. 

She and our younger daughter (DD#2), who just finished her freshman year of college, have had a rough time the past five or six years. They both know how to push each others' buttons and, frankly, I am often stressed out by being with both of them at the same time. Some of that is related to typical teen daughter/mother dynamics, but it goes beyond that. 

My wife can go from "0 to 60" temper-wise, with her. When I try to point that out (often afterward or in a discreet way) my wife deflects, gets defensive, or suggests that I am not backing her up. When I try to talk with DD#2 about how she "goes off" on her mother she tells me that I "just don't know" about things mom has done to her and then starts her litany. I don't have any belief that my wife was ever physically abusive, but I know she has said some hurtful things to DD#2, and vice versa. 

Part of the problem in how their relationship has developed is that I was living and working 3 hours during the week the whole time DD#2 was in high school and I think my lack of presence during the week intensified their dynamic, making it more harsh. Part of the problem is also related to DD#2's relative immaturity. I think they both still feel love for one another and can find short periods of time when they avoid their usual tiffs, but I am concerned that each small cut is adding up--especially for DD#2.

A few months ago, our older daughter, DD#1 spent some time in the city where I am working as part of her medical training. She and I had the chance to talk about her mom, the relationship with DD#2, relationship with DD#1 and, eventually, the situation of her mom and me. DD#1 is married, pregnant, and now in her medical residency. She was also a psychology/behavioral neuroscience undergraduate major and I would say her family provided plenty of subjects for her studies. 

DD#1 shares my concern over her sister's and mother's relationship--that they will become estranged eventually. She also said a peculiar thing--that she doesn't really "like" her mom. She said that she loves her mom and appreciates many of the things she did for her, but she thinks her mom is difficult to deal with. She also referenced her mom's temper, which she would have experienced for 12-13 years before my wife started the medication that has helped to mediate her flare-ups. 

Then she asked me if I was going to leave her mom. (She doesn't know about the affairs, just the interactions she has seen and our situation.) I danced around the answer, trying not to involve her in her parents' relationship anymore than she was already. She then related some of the things her mom had discussed with her and said, basically, that she wouldn't blame me for leaving, but that I shouldn't drag it out.

So, I don't know if my observations and explanations of her parenting add clarity or not, but they weigh on my mind a lot as I ponder my life with her.


----------



## Jethro

Martins97 said:


> Okay so she cheated with a few of her former lovers and you forgave her....now the former lover is dead and you feel fearful in your heart.
> 
> Since you forgave her,shouldn't you just move on regardless of the fact that she told you all or she excluded some.You caught her cheating on two occassions,did you bother to find out why she did what she did?.......NO! instead you forgave her.
> 
> Here is a piece of advice for you to enjoy your marriage:Sit her down and assure her you love her and as such would not want her to do any harm to you and do not forget to also assure her that she can completely trust you with matters affecting her;make her feel more comfortable having you around and if truely there's more.Your loving actions will make her guilt spill it out
> 
> You should not fear-for christ sake you married her,man up and treat her nice.Fact is a woman only cheats when she is not getting enough of whatever she ought to get from her man.Communicate more and in time old wounds will heal because it so evident that although you have "claim to have forgiven her",you are still hurt by her actions and yet to truely "forgive or forget" her errors.Until you learn to do this;you cannot enjoy your marriage,neither can she or your kids(if you have one)......Be a man and "grab your balls" and love her,show her support----be her BESTFRIEND!!!
> 
> Good Luck,


Martins97--I started to respond to this post, but then realized that you still hadn't read my posts and/or you misunderstood what I wrote. If you want to go back and edify yourself, I would be happy to respond as honestly as I can. Until then, I ask that you refrain from posting in this thread, as it is not helpful or welcomed.


----------



## Satya

You can love her and she can still be wrong for you.


----------



## Jethro

Satya said:


> You can love her and she can still be wrong for you.


Thanks, Satya. I know that in my head, but it is harder to convince my heart. I don't know if that is due to sentimentality, inertia, or some lingering distant hope that she/we can change.

I do tend to be a rational person in every aspect of my life--except those that involve her. 

One thing she said to BF#2 struck me in a way that even some of their more intimate expressions of desire did not. 

In one exchange following their lone visit together, she was feeling pangs of guilt over their EA. She wrote the following: "I find it amazing that for all of those years I missed what a good match Jethro and I could be, instead focusing on what I had had and couldn't have anymore. (Lucky my head was paying attention, huh?)" 

So, as I have said, and others have proposed, I was the "right" guy for her, the one that practicality chose. I don't doubt that she did and does love me--but not in the way that I have loved her. When it comes to her I have rarely paid attention to my head. I have always given into my heart.


----------



## Satya

Jethro said:


> Thanks, Satya. I know that in my head, but it is harder to convince my heart. I don't know if that is due to sentimentality, inertia, or some lingering distant hope that she/we can change.
> 
> I do tend to be a rational person in every aspect of my life--except those that involve her.
> 
> One thing she said to BF#2 struck me in a way that even some of their more intimate expressions of desire did not.
> 
> In one exchange following their lone visit together, she was feeling pangs of guilt over their EA. She wrote the following: "I find it amazing that for all of those years I missed what a good match Jethro and I could be, instead focusing on what I had had and couldn't have anymore. (Lucky my head was paying attention, huh?)"
> 
> So, as I have said, and others have proposed, I was the "right" guy for her, the one that practicality chose. I don't doubt that she did and does love me--but not in the way that I have loved her. When it comes to her I have rarely paid attention to my head. I have always given into my heart.


 @Jethro,a lot of posters here feel that love is a choice, and I tend to agree. It may mean something different to different people, but you need to be sure of what it means to you and how you allow it to "choose" for you. 

My husband lives by the adage, "choose wisely." Choosing wisely (IMO) requires cerebral and emotional consideration - a balance of the two. 

I would just offer that to choose only from your heart is not a wise method of choosing and you owe it to yourself to look at the logical (cerebral) in one thing specifically: Her actions. Nothing speaks as much about her feelings and intentions as what she has done. Put aside the person you think she is or wish she was and accept who she really is.


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## TDSC60

Jethro said:


> Thanks, Satya. I know that in my head, but it is harder to convince my heart. I don't know if that is due to sentimentality, inertia, or some lingering distant hope that she/we can change.
> 
> I do tend to be a rational person in every aspect of my life--except those that involve her.
> 
> One thing she said to BF#2 struck me in a way that even some of their more intimate expressions of desire did not.
> 
> In one exchange following their lone visit together, she was feeling pangs of guilt over their EA. She wrote the following: "I find it amazing that for all of those years I missed what a good match Jethro and I could be, instead focusing on what I had had and couldn't have anymore. (Lucky my head was paying attention, huh?)"
> 
> So, as I have said, and others have proposed, I was the "right" guy for her, the one that practicality chose. I don't doubt that she did and does love me--but not in the way that I have loved her. When it comes to her I have rarely paid attention to my head. I have always given into my heart.


Choosing to stay with you for practical reasons does not mean that she loves or loved you. 

Sounds like both of you wanted something you could not have and just stayed together for convenience.


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## TAMAT

Jethro,

Thanks for posting when I read what you wrote it stopped me. I don't even know what to write.

You wrote One thing she said to BF#2 struck me in a way that even some of their more intimate expressions of desire did not. In one exchange following their lone visit together, she was feeling pangs of guilt over their EA. She wrote the following: *"I find it amazing that for all of those years I missed what a good match Jethro and I could be, instead focusing on what I had had and couldn't have anymore. (Lucky my head was paying attention, huh?)"*

My W said to me in a rare moment of honesty that, it was a shame I had didn't recover our marriage until 2008 because we lost so many years when she could have loved me. She also felt at that time that it was too late to get our sex life back. I think OM-1 cast a shadow on our marriage which lasted for 20+ years for my W, OM-1 was a before marriage affair. 

Why couldn't they just have been honest with us and not let us love them with no chance of return for all those years.

Tamat


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## sokillme

Jethro said:


> Thanks, Satya. I know that in my head, but it is harder to convince my heart. I don't know if that is due to sentimentality, inertia, or some lingering distant hope that she/we can change.
> 
> I do tend to be a rational person in every aspect of my life--except those that involve her.
> 
> One thing she said to BF#2 struck me in a way that even some of their more intimate expressions of desire did not.
> 
> In one exchange following their lone visit together, she was feeling pangs of guilt over their EA. She wrote the following: "I find it amazing that for all of those years I missed what a good match Jethro and I could be, instead focusing on what I had had and couldn't have anymore. (Lucky my head was paying attention, huh?)"
> 
> So, as I have said, and others have proposed, I was the "right" guy for her, the one that practicality chose. I don't doubt that she did and does love me--but not in the way that I have loved her. When it comes to her I have rarely paid attention to my head. I have always given into my heart.


Man have you settled.


----------



## sokillme

TAMAT said:


> My W said to me in a rare moment of honesty that, it was a shame I had didn't recover our marriage until 2008 because we lost so many years when she could have loved me. She also felt at that time that it was too late to get our sex life back. I think OM-1 cast a shadow on our marriage which lasted for 20+ years for my W, OM-1 was a before marriage affair.


Who cheated you or her?


----------



## JohnA

Your answer to Martins97, showed and confirmed your character. You listen are thoughtful, considered, and reply calmly with balance. I think people who know you well would descripe you as warm but reserved, thoughtful but not shy. Exactly the type of person who could stay married to your wife. However, that does not mean you should.

I once warned someone: just because I don't react does not mean I didn't hear or see. I simply chose not to at this time. I sense the same in you. 

Your choice of job location indicates you have already choosen. If you follow though to divoice your wife will react badly, I believe she will adapt.


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## JustTheFacts

Martins97 said that women only cheat when they aren't getting what they need from their man. This is soooo not always the case. Sometimes they cheat just because they are selfish and heartless. Heck you didn't even get the chance to fulfill her needs because she cheated on you before you were even married. It then continued with somebody else from day 1. You were robbed and I feel for you. Every decision you make from this moment forward should be based on whether or not it will lead to your happiness (with concern for your children of course). I don't believe at this point that she will change enough to warrant another 30 year commitment from you. Have you read the story of @EI and @B1 ? Now that is true remorse. Does your wife even come close to that level of change? I hope you find true happiness.


----------



## Jethro

TAMAT said:


> Jethro,
> 
> Thanks for posting when I read what you wrote it stopped me. I don't even know what to write.
> 
> You wrote One thing she said to BF#2 struck me in a way that even some of their more intimate expressions of desire did not. In one exchange following their lone visit together, she was feeling pangs of guilt over their EA. She wrote the following: *"I find it amazing that for all of those years I missed what a good match Jethro and I could be, instead focusing on what I had had and couldn't have anymore. (Lucky my head was paying attention, huh?)"*
> 
> My W said to me in a rare moment of honesty that, it was a shame I had didn't recover our marriage until 2008 because we lost so many years when she could have loved me. She also felt at that time that it was too late to get our sex life back. I think OM-1 cast a shadow on our marriage which lasted for 20+ years for my W, OM-1 was a before marriage affair.
> 
> Why couldn't they just have been honest with us and not let us love them with no chance of return for all those years.
> 
> Tamat


Hi Tamat. I am sorry that you and I share such a crappy circumstance. As for the honesty of our spouses, I think it is rooted in selfishness--at least for my wife. I think that she really did want to marry me, but also had reservations about doing so in the timeframe we were following (this, despite the fact that SHE was the one who wanted to move up the wedding date). I think her selfishness came into play because she knew I was a "good catch," and she didn't want to lose me. My needs or my happiness were not included in her calculations. She knew what she wanted--or what she didn't want to happen and did not consider the impact of her actions on anyone else. 

I saw evidence of that same type of thinking when she confessed to BF#2 that if their EA escalated she wasn't sure she would feel as much guilt as the pain she would cause me. She also told him that she worried more about impacting his marriage with their relationship than impacting ours. How much more selfish can you be?


----------



## Jethro

JohnA said:


> Your answer to Martins97, showed and confirmed your character. You listen are thoughtful, considered, and reply calmly with balance. I think people who know you well would descripe you as warm but reserved, thoughtful but not shy. Exactly the type of person who could stay married to your wife. However, that does not mean you should.
> 
> I once warned someone: just because I don't react does not mean I didn't hear or see. I simply chose not to at this time. I sense the same in you.
> 
> Your choice of job location indicates you have already choosen. If you follow though to divoice your wife will react badly, I believe she will adapt.


Thanks, JohnA. I think you have me figured out for the most part. I recall during my undergraduate years I was part of a workshop and we did an activity where we were to describe another person in the group without naming them to see if the group could identify the person. The person describing me was a senior administrator, probably in his early 60s at the time. I didn't know who he was talking about when he started with the phrase, "still waters run deep..." It was the first time I had heard that phrase and I feel that it is probably an apt description.

BF#2 acknowledged to my wife that they had each married someone better suited as their life partners because we were both calmer and less quick to be baited into an emotional outburst. He also said something else that I don't entirely agree with. He said that he and my wife both tended to live on a higher emotional plane than their spouses, which I took to mean that they felt things more and more deeply than we did. That may be true, but I think what may be more likely is that he and my wife let emotions control their behaviors, which often led to consequences for others and which often led to regret. I feel plenty of emotion and consider myself to have a pretty solid EQ. It serves me well in my career and in most other relationships. 

I do need to disagree just a bit on your assertion that my choice of job location was my way of choosing to leave her. My job is in my wife's hometown. I applied for it only because she had indicated her desire to live in her parents' home (both had passed), on the small farm that she owned with her family. She expressed to BF#2 on more than one occasion that she could see herself enjoying living there, but wasn't sure if I would ever move with her. 

My job situation in 2011/2012 was deteriorating and I needed to find something else. Because there was nothing in the area where we were living, I started looking at opportunities in other locations, including one overseas.

When I got the offer from my current employer (I had two other offers at the time) she expressed doubt about moving with me to any of the new locations because she feared not being able to continue her career. She also backtracked on the idea of living in her parents' home and said that she could stay while our daughter finished HS and I could commute back and forth each week. The situation with acquiring her parents' home from her siblings took a nasty turn and I ended up moving out of that house within about a month of moving in and then renting a small apartment. I received a promotion two years ago and moved into a house, where I now live. 

After our younger daughter graduated from HS in 2016, she had talked of moving to be with me and I have been steadfast in saying that I would welcome her but only if she would not be bored, unhappy, and resentful because she gave up her job "for me." We decided then for her to stay last year (she is a college professor, so contract commitments tend to be for a full year). When the time came to talk about plans for this coming year, I held to my conditions. She did not seem ready to meet them so we agreed she would stay through this next year, meaning it would be summer, 2018 before she would move down. Now she is talking about 2-3 more years. As she and I talk about it, I find that I really don't want to change our current situation and, frankly, I enjoy my time on my own more than my time when she is with me.

If the roles were reversed, I don't think I would have batted an eye in joining her.


----------



## TDSC60

Why not just get a legal separation? You are living that way now.


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## Jethro

TDSC60 said:


> Why not just get a legal separation? You are living that way now.


I actually started looking at that option yesterday. I think it could be a good way to allow time for both of us to sort things out and might be a way to communicate to her how serious our problems are.


----------



## Thor

TAMAT said:


> I think OM-1 cast a shadow on our marriage which lasted for 20+ years for my W.
> 
> Why couldn't they just have been honest with us and not let us love them with no chance of return for all those years.
> 
> Tamat


Similar situation for me, with my ex-W's first love Assclown the professional musician. I knew she wasn't over him when we married, but I was young and stupid, so that is my excuse for putting up with it. Just as I figured things out, she got pregnant, and I decided to stay. There was a shadow on our marriage the whole time because she was never fully invested in it.

I think we frequently know in our gut when something is not right like this. We want it to be otherwise, and maybe there are other psychological things at play like the sunk cost fallacy, or not wanting to admit we were wrong to put so much love/value onto our spouse, or wanting to somehow win them over to us.

For some reason it is hard to cut loose from this kind of marriage. Those who would easily eject already did so early on. Those of us who continue in the relationship knowing there is this backstory of unfinished business lock ourselves in.

I've been surprised at how the divorce seems to be a positive for my adult children as well as bringing me a lot of peace.


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## Openminded

When you're in a long marriage -- and have that nagging feeling that's there's something suspicious that you can't quite prove/disprove -- you try to ignore it because you've invested too many years in the marriage to end it over suspicions. You want real proof. At least that was true for me. One day I finally had the real proof once again that he was cheating and then I got out. My only regret was not getting out when those suspicions first began because as it turned out they were true.


----------



## TAMAT

sokillme said:


> Who cheated you or her?


My W had an affair with OM-1 before we were married.

Tamat


----------



## Tod Nelson

Jethro said:


> Long back story that I will try to be brief with and fill in details if needed.
> 
> Married 33 years this fall. Got married in a bit of a whirlwind romance after college. Wife and I share many things in common, including upbringing, religion, and education. She slept with an old boyfriend a couple of weeks before our wedding. I was a fool and believed her penitence and we got married anyway. To this day she still can't tell me why it happened.
> 
> During our marriage she maintained off and on contact with another old boyfriend. Nothing too regular--occasional birthday cards from him. Some evidence of other contact, like an occasional letter or phone call. She went to visit him (platonically, which was confirmed in later correspondence) and they continued contact through the first 10 years or so of our marriage. Six years ago I discovered that they had reconnected via email in late 2005 and carried on an extensive long distance communication (he was about 350 miles away) for more than five years. They met once, in 2006, when he passed through our town. During that meeting they did not have sex, but they did share passionate embraces and later expressed regret at not having gone further. They quit contact in 2011, shortly before my discovery. Later that year I went to confront him and my wife and I attempted to move on together. I downloaded hundreds of email exchanges between them over those years and have a very good sense of the nature and content of their communication.
> 
> He unexpectedly died in 2012, so I know there has been no contact. But, in the years since I don't feel she has been completely honest with me. In fact, I feel she has downplayed his significance to her. She has apologized many times for how she has hurt me. Still, I don't think she has been forthright in her account of what happened.
> 
> Based on my review of what they shared, I feel like much of our marriage has been a sham and I don't think I want to continue. I've tried various forms of counseling, to little/no avail. I struggle with what to do because leaving would be a major disruption in our lives and I am not sure I am ready to handle the aftermath of our divorce.
> 
> Am I just being a chickens**t?


I have been where you are, I read your post and I felt like I wrote the same words, years ago. I never write on these forums but I felt that I had to tell you this. Tell you what worked for us. After months of therapy, the conclusion was that we just didn't listen to each other. The problem was, no one could teach us how to listen., but we found a way. We planned time to talk to each other. (Usually right before bed) and we used our phones to record the conversations. The next day, wed listen to them. We rediscovered each other. We realized that we were both looking the same things. Eventually, we started filming these talks so that we could easily upload them to youtube.(this was an easier way to share them and we kept them private.) It was magical, we learned each others signals and tells. We made each other laugh again. Our lives have never been better.Maybe this could work for you too.


----------



## Tod Nelson

I have been where you are, I read your post and I felt like I wrote the same words, years ago. I never write on these forums but I felt that I had to tell you this. Tell you what worked for us. After months of therapy, the conclusion was that we just didn't listen to each other. The problem was, no one could teach us how to listen., but we found a way. We planned time to talk to each other. (Usually right before bed) and we used our phones to record the conversations. The next day, wed listen to them. We rediscovered each other. We realized that we were both looking the same things. Eventually, we started filming these talks so that we could easily upload them to youtube.(this was an easier way to share them and we kept them private.) It was magical, we learned each others signals and tells. We made each other laugh again. Our lives have never been better.Maybe this could work for you too.


----------



## Marc878

Martins97 said:


> Okay so she cheated with a few of her former lovers and you forgave her....now the former lover is dead and you feel fearful in your heart.
> 
> Since you forgave her,shouldn't you just move on regardless of the fact that she told you all or she excluded some.You caught her cheating on two occassions,did you bother to find out why she did what she did?.......NO! instead you forgave her.
> 
> Here is a piece of advice for you to enjoy your marriage:Sit her down and assure her you love her and as such would not want her to do any harm to you and do not forget to also assure her that she can completely trust you with matters affecting her;make her feel more comfortable having you around and if truely there's more.Your loving actions will make her guilt spill it out
> 
> You should not fear-for christ sake you married her,man up and treat her nice.*Fact is a woman only cheats when she is not getting enough of whatever she ought to get from her man.*Communicate more and in time old wounds will heal because it so evident that although you have "claim to have forgiven her",you are still hurt by her actions and yet to truely "forgive or forget" her errors.Until you learn to do this;you cannot enjoy your marriage,neither can she or your kids(if you have one)......Be a man and "grab your balls" and love her,show her support----be her BESTFRIEND!!!
> 
> Good Luck,


Cheaters are selfish people for the most part and cheat because they want to.

Your post wreaks of doormatish behavior.


----------



## TAMAT

Jethro,

You wrote, *I saw evidence of that same type of thinking when she confessed to BF#2 that if their EA escalated she wasn't sure she would feel as much guilt as the pain she would cause me. She also told him that she worried more about impacting his marriage with their relationship than impacting ours. How much more selfish can you be? *

I think this is one of the factors holding my W back, I suspect OM-1 dumped my now W, for his then GF to whom he is still married. There is a very good chance OM-1 was doing both at the same time but never told OMW. 

As my W is incredibly careful and diplomatic with outsiders and people she does not know, she could not bear to cause OMW or his kids pain. This contrasts very sharply with how she treats me and the kids btw as she is brutally honest most of the time and harshly critical.

I think it has something to do with her parents, her father was a smooth serial cheater, while her mother was honorable and never cheated she was even somewhat puritanical. She is like her father when dealing with outsiders but like her mother when dealing with immediate family.

I also think that your W has had a difficult relationship with your children possibly because they were not OMs children and they were the connection which most powerfully kept her attached to you. I think early in my marriage my W felt that way too. 

Tamat


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## Lostinthought61

Jethro, 

after reading your entire thread the words that come to mind are Paralysis through Analysis....your looking at this situation in 100 different ways but the conclusion is the same, that she still cheated and that there is little remorses and that she does not feel for you like she did for them...and you stew about this 100 more ways but the conclusion is the same...i truly think you are so fearful of taking that next step that your second guessing yourself, its time to rip the bandaid off and move on...otherwise you might as wait till she dies...i suspect you afraid to look like the bad guy, well guess what who cares those who really care will understand and those who don't the hell with them. expose her for who she is, and BTW you are legally separated just not on paper....so just move on and stop this pining for who she could be, might be....she is not...she may say the words but they are empty...you have an empty vessel, you deserve to be happy however you define it, but you have to take the first step to get there. Stop this insanity...let me ask you one question what would you tell your children to do if they were living your life....i suspect you would have told them to move on


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## wmn1

Jethro said:


> I actually started looking at that option yesterday. I think it could be a good way to allow time for both of us to sort things out and might be a way to communicate to her how serious our problems are.


separation only enables her to cheat again. It also doesn't solve any problems. It just pushes them out further.

If you can't get over what has occurred, and I know I wouldn't be able to, then divorce and move on IMO


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## TaDor

Lostinthought61 said:


> ....the conclusion is the same, that she still cheated and that there is little remorses and that she does not feel for you like she did for them...and you stew about this 100 more ways but the conclusion is the same...i truly think you are so fearful of taking that next step that your second guessing yourself, its time to rip the bandaid off and move on...otherwise you might as wait till she dies...i suspect you afraid to look like the bad guy, well guess what who cares those who really care will understand and those who don't the hell with them.


Yeah, while he has some youth left - might as well live. They don't seem to be "together" that much. Besides, its far more likely that she WILL OUT-LIVE him. Jethro brought it up himself - about having to pay her out a 7figure sum for a divorce... that tells me that money is a factor for him and for her, keeping up appearances. So why bother? When he dies in 10~25 years, she will still GET HIS money if married. So might as well cut her loose and date other women (after playing around) - even one up her by having 2 or 3 30yr old girlfriends. Cheated out of 30+ years of an actual marriage?

Each their own. Hell, I think most here think I am a fool to do R with my WW - but I have my own reasons for us to continue trying. But I can safely say I am willing to leave my wife if she screws up again - in comparison. It would be quick.


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## Thor

In my state, divorce is no-fault. Assets are split the same regardless of who initiated the divorce, and regardless of any affairs or other bad behaviors.

The point is, she could at any point decide she wants to live her life with someone else and no longer is too worried about public appearances. There is a phenomenon currently with older people divorcing shortly after their elderly parents die. (And, interestingly, older gay/lesbian people coming out of the closet after their elderly parents die). Anyhow, the point is there is no guarantee she hangs around at all.

And when she decides to leave the marriage, she's going to get all that money. She doesn't have to wait until he dies to get a lot of money. She may decide the 7 figures is enough and she may as well go enjoy her life now rather than wait until he dies.


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## Jethro

Hello everyone. I thought I would provide a quick update of our situation over the past couple of months. Within a week of my last post in this thread my wife came to me with a couple of recommendations for counselors. We went through the list and I gave my thoughts to narrow it down. She selected one and contacted them to set up an appointment. We have had two joint sessions, I have had an individual session, and she has had two individual sessions since then. Our last joint session was about three weeks ago, so we are due for another joint session next.

The counseling seems to be impacting her positively, but we are still very early in the process. I am not sure what I want to accomplish from the process and the counselor even suggested that she is not sure if she will be recommending marriage counseling or divorce counseling. I told my wife in a private moment that I just wasn't sure we were good for each other and she seemed a bit surprised by that comment. If the counseling continues to progress, we will make a decision on the direction of our future within the next few weeks. 

So, there has been progress, of a sort, and I feel better that at least she has been willing to take ownership of part of our attempt at recovery. 

Thanks again to all who have weighed in with thoughts, experiences and advice.


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## TDSC60

Are you still living in separate locations?

Having read over your thread again, I see that you and your wife are on completely different emotional levels and always were. Sometimes this complements the relationship, but not in your case. Your wife sought an emotional connection outside the marriage with a third person and that is always to the detriment of the marriage.

The only advice I have is don't make staying married the focus of counselling, make the focus finding out what is best for your future happiness. After all, your wife has been focused on her happiness for most of the marriage and that focus did not include an intense emotional attachment to her husband. So now her emotional outlet has died, literally, now she turns to Plan B.

Good luck.


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## Roselyn

OP, you have been robbed of a real marriage. Your wife chosed you as her Plan B, all this time. I'm 59 years old, married for 37 years (first time marriage for the both of us), and neither of us has cheated. I'm at the stage in my life that I'm chucking out all the toxic people out of my life, family or not. I have more years behind me than in front of me. I wouldn't waste more time in this sham of a marriage that you have. I wouldn't live a so-so life in exchange for money.

See a psychologist so that you can get your mind in the right track. Your situation will not get any better for you. I see more regrets for you in staying in this sham of a marriage in your future years. Sorry that you are here.


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## Handy

Jethro, living separately is one of your (AS A COUPLE) biggest problems. I can see the separate residences also impacted your daughter's and Wife's relationships too.

Living as a family unit in one house might not have eliminated all of the issues and problems, but I think you would have had fewer issues to deal with if you had lived together.

The next question is how much money do you or your wife need to earn? Is doing with a lower income all that bad? Living together on less income might fix several things in the future.

I understand "sunk cost."  I know the past has impacted you negatively, but it can't be changed. What will change is the future.


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## Jethro

Roselyn said:


> OP, you have been robbed of a real marriage. Your wife chosed you as her Plan B, all this time. I'm 59 years old, married for 37 years (first time marriage for the both of us), and neither of us has cheated. I'm at the stage in my life that I'm chucking out all the toxic people out of my life, family or not. I have more years behind me than in front of me. I wouldn't waste more time in this sham of a marriage that you have. I wouldn't live a so-so life in exchange for money.
> 
> See a psychologist so that you can get your mind in the right track. Your situation will not get any better for you. I see more regrets for you in staying in this sham of a marriage in your future years. Sorry that you are here.


Thanks, Roselyn. At 56, I am filtering a lot of my decisions with the same lens you are using--evaluating where I am by asking myself if I were starting over would this be the decision I would make and, in this case, the person I would choose to spend the next segment of my life with.

We are in counseling together and that includes separate sessions. It may take a few more weeks/months, but I suspect there will be a clear direction at some point in the near future.


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## Jethro

Handy said:


> Jethro, living separately is one of your (AS A COUPLE) biggest problems. I can see the separate residences also impacted your daughter's and Wife's relationships too.
> 
> Living as a family unit in one house might not have eliminated all of the issues and problems, but I think you would have had fewer issues to deal with if you had lived together.
> 
> The next question is how much money do you or your wife need to earn? Is doing with a lower income all that bad? Living together on less income might fix several things in the future.
> 
> I understand "sunk cost." I know the past has impacted you negatively, but it can't be changed. What will change is the future.


Thanks, Handy. I appreciate your thoughts. As I indicated, we have been living apart for only the past five years. For 28 years, and during the period in which she became entangled with two other men, we were living together. So, I don't think that living apart has created the problems in our relationship. To be sure, being apart has not been helpful to our ability to heal and deal with problems, and I do think that my not being as present contributed to the rift between my wife and younger daughter (who has her own emotional/psychological challenges). I tend to have a moderating influence on their interactions.

I may not have been clear in my earlier posts, but the decision to live apart was largely my wife's. She doesn't want to give up her independent career and income. We don't need the money she earns, but she feels she needs it for her own sense of independence and, especially early in our careers, her own security. The fact that her mom was so financially dependent on her father and, with eight kids, incapable of supporting herself alone, is firmly imprinted in her brain.

In fact, as I told our counselor, something that wounded me and has contributed to my growing sense of resolve is that she would not move with me. And not just for my current position. I have had 4-5 other opportunities in the past 10 years and had to turn them down in large part because she was not willing to move. She would say something like, "you could move and I (and, earlier, our daughters) could stay here and you could commute." So, when she essentially said the same thing at the time I was offered a position at my current employer, I finally acted on it. To be more accurate, she said we could do that for a year, and then it was until our younger daughter finished high school. We have started year six of that arrangement. 

I used the term "sunk cost" for exactly the reason you suggest. A sunk cost can't be recovered and so it is irrelevant to the next decision. Her affairs are in the past. The pain, and anger I felt--and still feel to some extent--along with the fear of another affair, wouldn't be the reasons I would leave. I do think her eyes have been opened on that front and I am confident that she won't have another affair (for many reasons, some of which I've tried to cite earlier in this thread). The affairs, however, and our more separate lives have given me a way to assess the bigger picture: even if those hurts had not been there, is this the person I want to be with for the rest of my life? Are things so good with us when we are together now that I would be better with her than without her, even if it meant being alone?


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## MJJEAN

I really think you need to resolve the living situation and be living together if you want to save your marriage. For the last 5 years you and your wife have been living like a couple in a LDR/separated couple. Long distance relationships have a fairly high failure rate. Statistically, couples who separate are less likely to be able to repair their marriages than those who continue living together. Counseling is great, but the reality is there is bonding that comes from sharing day to day life and your marriage isn't able to benefit from that bonding living apart.

I hate to say this, but I don't think your wife is "all in". I don't think she has ever been "all in". I don't know if she could ever be "all in", but I think her taking a leap of faith might be the way to save your marriage. Let me explain.

You say your wife has been scarred from watching her mother struggle. She fears dependence and craves security. I think you've always been Plan A. I think the OM was her Plan B security blanket in case her marriage to you failed. I think she is refusing to move and keeps re-upping at her current position for the same reason. Instead of the total commitment your marriage deserves, she's always had a toe out the door, a back up plan, because she is terrified of what will become of her if... 

I understand it, but I think that after 30 years she needs to either go "all in" and take that leap of faith by putting all her eggs in one basket (transferring or leaving her job, sharing a marital home again, totally committing to the marriage with no Plan B in sight) or amicably divorce.


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## Lostinthought61

Jethro what troubles the most is how she justify her actions with these to men all this time and still be surprised you don't you are made for each other...frankly i don't know how best to say it...perhaps she is surprised you finally have a back bone.


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## Thor

Jethro said:


> Thanks, Roselyn. At 56, I am filtering a lot of my decisions with the same lens you are using--evaluating where I am by asking myself if I were starting over would this be the decision I would make and, in this case, the person I would choose to spend the next segment of my life with.
> 
> We are in counseling together and that includes separate sessions. It may take a few more weeks/months, but I suspect there will be a clear direction at some point in the near future.


Jethro, thanks for the update.

I am also 56, divorced last winter. I was married 34 years to the first (and up to recently) and only woman I'd ever had sex with. When we were in our 20's we were a perfect match in terms of interests, activities, and goals. But she was never fully in the marriage for a variety of reasons. One reason was her first lover whom she never really got over. There were other deep emotional issues from her childhood which also were a barrier to her true emotional investment in the marriage.

I'm now dating a very nice lady. We have a lot of fun together, and she really likes physical contact which is something my ex-W had great difficulty with. I am learning how very much I missed out on in my marriage, and how I really was a boiled frog on many issues.

Don't get one-itis. Don't get caught up in some idea you are over the hill or you can't have a great future with someone else. My adult kids and young grand kids are just fine with the divorce and with me dating. Make a decision based on whether or not you can have a great relationship with your W. Investors evaluate their portfolio by asking if they would buy the investment today with what they know. If the answer is no, they sell it. The same should apply to your marriage. If you wouldn't marry her today with what you know, you probably won't be happy if you stay. If you do decide to leave the marriage, there really are a lot of great women out there for you to meet. Things will be different, but they will be good.


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## TDSC60

In some states when a husband and wife own separate residences and spend most of their days apart. They are legally separated.

I get the feeling that the only thing keeping you together is not wanting to make the divorce official and split the marital assets.


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## Handy

* Jethro
a)during the period in which she became entangled with two other men, we were living together. 
b)the decision to live apart was largely my wife's. She doesn't want to give up her independent career and income. 
c)her mom was so financially dependent on her father and, with eight kids, incapable of supporting herself alone, is firmly imprinted in her brain.
*

a) That sheds more light on the situation. It is not good that you were in the house and she had these side emotion things going on. Perhaps she is a person that thrives on risks in some areas of her life and no risk (her job-income) in other areas.
b) My W was a SAHM until I had several back issues and surgery. After my W finished her nursing program she is now like your W.
c) My W worked in a mental health facility and saw women like your W's mother and now my W is "don't depend on a man AND don't let a man influence you what to do or say. Her income is "hers" and mine is "family income." My W also spends too much money on things she likes as in "Retail Therapy."

I know the reasons for my disconnect with my W but I don't have the skills to make things much better. 


I will sugest you look at these videos in addition to the counseling you are doing now. These 3 people have some really good relationship ideas. They have several Youtube videos. 
Here are some titles to the introductory videos: (copy and paste once you bring up Youtube on your computer screen)

John Gottman Making Relationships Work | Part 1 | Dr. John Gottman then parts 2-3-4 and so on. (and other videos)

David Schnarch Big Think Interview With David Schnarch (and other videos)

Esther Perel The secret to desire in a long-term relationship. (and other videos)

Like you, I have some concerns if I would divorce my wife. The money and spending issues (her retail therapy) and not being able to fix anything (doesn't know how to change the batteries in the TV remote and she watches TV all day) are a big concern for me.

* Jethro
a)during the period in which she became entangled with two other men, we were living together. 
b)the decision to live apart was largely my wife's. She doesn't want to give up her independent career and income. 
c)her mom was so financially dependent on her father and, with eight kids, incapable of supporting herself alone, is firmly imprinted in her brain.
*

a) That sheds more light on the situation. It is not good that you were in the house and she had these side emotion things going on. Perhaps she is a person that thrives on risks in some areas of her life and no riske (her job-income) in other areas.
b) My W was a SAHM until I had severar back issues and surgery. After my W finished her nursing program she is now like your W.
c) My W worked in a mental health facility and saw women like your W's mother and now my W is "don't depend on a man AND don't let a man influence you what to do or say. Her income is "hers" and mine is "family incomw." My W also spends too much money on things she likes as in "Retail Therapy."

I know the reasons for my disconnect with my W but I don't have the skills to make things much better. 


I will sugest you look at these videos in addition to the counseling you are doing now. These 3 people have some really good relationship ideas. They have several Youtube videos. 
Here are some titles to the introductory videos: (copy and paste once you bring up Youtube on your computer screen)

John Gottman Making Relationships Work | Part 1 | Dr. John Gottman then parts 2-3-4 and so on. (and other videos)

David Schnarch Big Think Interview With David Schnarch (and other videos)

MJJEAN's post 146 sounds like a good observation.


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## Jethro

Thanks again, everyone, for your comments and insights. 

MJJEAN said (even though he hated doing so ...):
"I hate to say this, but I don't think your wife is "all in". I don't think she has ever been "all in". I don't know if she could ever be "all in", but I think her taking a leap of faith might be the way to save your marriage. Let me explain.

You say your wife has been scarred from watching her mother struggle. She fears dependence and craves security. I think you've always been Plan A. I think the OM was her Plan B security blanket in case her marriage to you failed. I think she is refusing to move and keeps re-upping at her current position for the same reason. Instead of the total commitment your marriage deserves, she's always had a toe out the door, a back up plan, because she is terrified of what will become of her if..." 


I think there is a lot of truth to what you say. She even suggested as much in an email to her EA partner when she said something about "always having to be ready to be on her own..." I thought it an odd thing to say when I first came across it, but knowing her full history, including much that I have gleaned from her EA exchanges, as well as insights from TAM, it makes a lot of sense. In my opinion she never felt secure--largely because she never allowed herself to feel that way. 

God knows I wasn't a perfect husband, even in our early marriage. I can be taciturn and even a bit passive aggressive. Some of that I lay at the feet of what happened with BF#1 right before our wedding. I was a jumbled mess of emotions--terribly (and maybe irreversibly) hurt, angry, desperate for her to love me, caught up in the celebratory mood of our families and friends, stressed about starting a new job with a new wife, and dealing with a tremendous blow to my self confidence. I sometimes "acted out" by not being as enthusiastic about things she wanted to do, or by shutting down emotionally. Still, I look back at that period, reinforced by cards and notes and letters from that time, and I see that I was constantly trying to reassure her, to build her confidence, and to let her know how much I loved her. Essentially, I was giving TO HER what I most needed FROM HER at that time. My reaction was to try to convince her that I loved her more than anyone else and that she had made the right decision to stay with me.

So, I guess I never really expected her to be "all-in." Actually, I reinforced in her that she could do something like that and I would practically beg her forgiveness for whatever I had done (which was nothing!) to cause it to happen. We NEVER discussed it, either. To her, it was done and in the past so why belabor it. Yet, that situation continued on in the undercurrent of everything that has happened between us for the past 33 years. 

She wasn't all-in and that's largely because I allowed her not to be.


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## Marc878

We do teach others how they can treat us but that's no excuse. Your life does largely depends on what you do with it.


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## Jethro

Lostinthought61 said:


> Jethro what troubles the most is how she justify her actions with these to men all this time and still be surprised you don't you are made for each other...frankly i don't know how best to say it...perhaps she is surprised you finally have a back bone.


That could be the case, but I think it is more to do with the fact that I think she thinks I have been very good for her and I think she believes that if she were better toward me we would be good for each other. 

Please recall that this has been a six-year process, so I am not bringing up a lot of these issues with her for the first time. I would say my backbone has been intact and visible for at least the past six years. 

I will admit my backbone was not as prominent as it should have been for most of our marriage. I thought, "what good does it do to have a backbone when you feel you are committed to staying married at least until the kids leave the home?" Some of my lack of backbone was due to my thought that if I give into her it would preserve the peace. As I mentioned in earlier posts, she was emotionally pretty volatile during much of our marriage. She was never what I would call emotionally or physically abusive, but she had a very short fuse and took any criticism, no matter how slight or indirect, as a personal attack. I was brought up in a household where my father was like her and I wanted to avoid those feelings--unfortunately, as it turns out, at great cost to the long-term health of my relationship.


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## Jethro

TDSC60 said:


> Are you still living in separate locations?
> 
> Having read over your thread again, I see that you and your wife are on completely different emotional levels and always were. Sometimes this complements the relationship, but not in your case. Your wife sought an emotional connection outside the marriage with a third person and that is always to the detriment of the marriage.
> 
> The only advice I have is don't make staying married the focus of counselling, make the focus finding out what is best for your future happiness. After all, your wife has been focused on her happiness for most of the marriage and that focus did not include an intense emotional attachment to her husband. So now her emotional outlet has died, literally, now she turns to Plan B.
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks. Our counselor has said that her goal is about helping the people, not the marriage, per se. She will counsel us to pursue what is best for our mental and emotional health as individuals, which may include helping us to make the decision to divorce.


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## Jethro

Thor said:


> Don't get one-itis. Don't get caught up in some idea you are over the hill or you can't have a great future with someone else. My adult kids and young grand kids are just fine with the divorce and with me dating. Make a decision based on whether or not you can have a great relationship with your W. Investors evaluate their portfolio by asking if they would buy the investment today with what they know. If the answer is no, they sell it. The same should apply to your marriage. If you wouldn't marry her today with what you know, you probably won't be happy if you stay. If you do decide to leave the marriage, there really are a lot of great women out there for you to meet. Things will be different, but they will be good.


Thanks, Thor. I appreciate your sharing of your parallel situation. I am not, and would not, stay with her because I feel like she is my ONLY path to a happy life. In truth, I am not worried at all about being able to find another woman, an amazing woman, to share my life with. I am not really even thinking that way. I see the alternatives as "with my wife" or "without her." I don't really think I even want to be married again. This marriage has taught me that I can be perfectly self-sufficient in every aspect of my life, so I don't need a wife to survive. I am very comfortable being alone, if that is what my fate should be. I would even say that my ideal retirement would be as a drifter of sorts, on the road with no ties, no commitments, and the freedom to do as I please at any given moment. Not exactly good marriage material. 

Maybe at 75 I could be a land-locked sailor of sorts, with a woman in every retirement home/port.


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## Marc878

Trying to manipulate someone into being what you want them to be doesn't work. I think this is what you're trying to do with the counseling because you can't take any action.

Our basic characters are set early on. While that can be masked/controlled for the most part it never changes. Your wife after this long is who she is. She's not going to all of a sudden have an epiphany and magic happens. 

The same for you. You've stayed in this for so long actually taking action and doing something with your life now will take a huge amount of effort which sadly most only talk about but can't or won't actually make happen.

You should fix yourself at this time. Staying in this when you could have found better/happiness smells like codependency. Whichever way you go.

Her waking up and becoming what you wants a fairy tale that's not going to happen.


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## TAMAT

Jethro,

I want to respond more but for now I just want to comment on something you wrote, *She doesn't want to give up her independent career and income*

Are you sure your WW isn't in a long term emotional affair at work and that's the actual reason she doesn't want to move? I've seen alot of deeply hidden workplace affairs and to some degree it would fit your WWs profile of long duration fantasy affairs.

Did you ever have your WW take a polygraph to make sure you have the full truth? Even if you have accepted her affairs it not ok that she is still being dishonest with you.

Tamat


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## turnera

You say you didn't have a backbone, but you also said you were passive aggressive. Not great signs for a marriage. I have a job for you: read No More Mr Nice Guy. It might explain a lot.


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## Jethro

turnera said:


> You say you didn't have a backbone, but you also said you were passive aggressive. Not great signs for a marriage. I have a job for you: read No More Mr Nice Guy. It might explain a lot.




Thanks, but I read it 5-1/2 years ago. The book opened my eyes to a lot of things that brought me to where I am today. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## turnera

So you are no longer passive aggressive and conflict-avoidant? Just reading the book changed you? Do tell.


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## Jethro

TAMAT said:


> Jethro,
> 
> 
> 
> I want to respond more but for now I just want to comment on something you wrote, *She doesn't want to give up her independent career and income*
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure your WW isn't in a long term emotional affair at work and that's the actual reason she doesn't want to move? I've seen alot of deeply hidden workplace affairs and to some degree it would fit your WWs profile of long duration fantasy affairs.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever have your WW take a polygraph to make sure you have the full truth? Even if you have accepted her affairs it not ok that she is still being dishonest with you.
> 
> 
> 
> Tamat




Thanks, TAMAT. I have no reason to believe she is in any sort of affair at this time. And trust me, I have been vigilant on that front. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chaparral

How are things going?

I looked back at your first thread in 2013. I am totally confused. It seems like you are describing two completely different affairs.

I would like to say that I have the feeling her EA was less than you think. I think it was a fantasy roll playing thing almost. Yes I see the insecurities of a middle child. Lol, I coached one that was very middle child. The fact is, she has stuck with you through thick and thin. Also, it has never been physical and that in her mind, like most people, meant it wasn’t an affair. You accepted she had a one night stand before marriage. It isn’t fair to either of you to worry about that now.

It’s easy for her to say things that hurt you when she wrote to her EA. But the thing is, talk is talk and as we say here actions are what count. If you didn’t have access to her posts, I would say a PA was no doubt going on. But, it looks to me that what you are really dealing with is two insecure people leaning on each other a little too much. Insecurity also betrays itself in her quick anger and feelings of being attacked.

What she did was wrong, considering her early Home life though it isn’t surprising. Both of you are to blame for living apart and that has hurt both you, her and your kids. In a marriage two become one, maybe it isn’t to late for the two of you to realize this. Even now, her fear of being left and alone is well founded.


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