# No More Mr. Nice Guy: The Support Thread



## njpca

After many people have quoted this book to handle my problems I finally got a copy and am starting to jump in and try to work any of my own issues.

It's been a long journey and I think this is last saving grace to make things better in my life.

I'll be starting to go through the activities and digging into to make some changes in my life, so I am hoping to start this thread as kind of a support method for me or anyone that is trying to deal with similar issues involved with the book.

I am going to try to look into some local men's groups also, but not sure if I'll be able to afford it at this time. So hopefully this can fulfill a little of this process.

Just wanted to open of the forum. Anybody have experience sharing the book or the process with their significant other? How did they handle it? How did you work together in the process?

The book takes a very male centric approach and I am not sure how my wife would react to me starting to read and follow through with the steps so I am hoping to get some good feedback on it.

I'll try to keep abreast on this as much as possible and discuss the steps I have gone through and hope to open up with others this journey.

Thanks for reading


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## Conrad

Don't even tell her about it.

Share it later after she notices the new you - and likes it.

Given the dynamic currently in your home, if you tell her about it now, it will cause many more problems than it solves.


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## Acorn

The beauty of doing the work is that the work is on YOU. It is not on you and your wife.

Like Conrad said, your wife will notice and react positively - or maybe she won't. But either way, you'll be better off.


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## JoeRockStar

I just started reading this book on Monday and in 2 days it has absolutely changed my life for the better. I have chosen not to tell my wife about it yet As Conrad suggested, I am waiting for her to comment on the new "me" before I say anything. She's already noticed the changes and I can see her mentally scratching her head but so far I haven't really gotten any negative feedback, only positive.

I look forward to reading and contributing to this thread as I don't have time for a real support group either.


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## bill2011

The author has a website and you can find a local support group. I've found this helpful to meet with others as well. Link is below
No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group - Powered by vBulletin


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## okeydokie

if you are worried about what your wife will think about the process, you may have trouble implementing any of it.


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## Conrad

bill2011 said:


> The author has a website and you can find a local support group. I've found this helpful to meet with others as well. Link is below
> No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group - Powered by vBulletin


How are you Bill?


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## Thor

Definitely *do not* share the book or the NMMNG website with your wife.

Pretty universally this is the opinion of the men over on the support site. The author missed the mark on this one area, at least from the experiences of many men.

First off, sharing with your wife smacks of looking for her approval. Kind of like a kid running to mom to show her his latest art creation. Let your actions speak for you.

Secondly, many Nice Guys marry dysfunctional women. Marriages can be in a pretty bad place by the time you get to looking for and finding NMMNG. Many men have found that their wives actively undermine their progress when they know of the book. Some women fear a loss of control or who fear the man is simply going to replace her with another woman, and so they use the book against the man. This is the play book, and if you hand it to her she now knows the buttons to push.

Thirdly, your wife is by definition not one of your safe male advisors.

Doc Glover is correct that we should not engage in hiding our real selves. I think that privacy in one's therapy space is acceptable, and I think that the book qualifies as therapy in that regard. I wouldn't hide the book locked in the safe in the basement, but I also would not sit down and explain the book to her.


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## Deejo

njpca said:


> The book takes a very male centric approach and I am not sure how my wife would react to me starting to read and follow through with the steps so I am hoping to get some good feedback on it.


It takes a very male-centric approach by design.
There is some great stuff in the book. But ... as in most things in life, take what you find valuable, and gauge the rest for yourself.

And I will try to make my position clear ...
I don't believe the primary goal of 'Manning Up' is to give you a better marriage.

The primary goal is to make you a better man ... a man more comfortable with himself, and how he conducts his life.
A consequence of which, is that you may have a better marriage. Another consequence may be that you recognize you have a lousy marriage, and choose to get the hell out.

It isn't about what your wife 'likes'. Nor is it about alienating your wife. She indeed is part of your journey ... but she doesn't share or experience the journey as you will.

I STRONGLY recommend that you do not discuss or share the details of what you are doing. It isn't about keeping secrets. Quite the contrary, it's about maintaining clarity of purpose. And asking your wife to share in a 'male-centric' endeavor is quite likely to backfire on you and muddy the water.


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## Lon

Like others have said I don't think it is important or necessary to share this with your W, but I think the point is to not hide it either. You are doing this for you, not her. I think our tendency is unless we deliberately want to share something we tend to hide it and keep it secret - this is an exhausting way to live and part of the reason we don't have the energy we would like to expend on real relationships.


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## thunderstruck

That book changed my life 3-4 years ago. I didn't share it, or the NG forum with my wife b/c in the past, she's always told me that relationship/marriage books are BS. I would not lie if she asked me about it, but I won't volunteer it. It's my safe place, and I want to let it all hang out over there, without wondering if she's reading my words. 

The downside is that with my radical sacking-up changes, it's caused her a lot of anxiety. I've explained to her that I simply took a look at myself, didn't like what I saw, and did a lot of work to become the man I want to be. She can't understand that.


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## JoeRockStar

thunderstruck said:


> I've explained to her that I simply took a look at myself, didn't like what I saw, and did a lot of work to become the man I want to be. She can't understand that.


This is what I hinted at with my wife today. I was talking to her about how I made plans with a friend to go riding quads and also to go to a friend's party this upcoming weekend for an acoustic jam.

Her reaction was "You're on fire, what's gotten into you?". I simply told her that I needed to make some changes in my life so that I'm a happier person. I work hard, I take care of my family, and I DESERVE IT! I told her that she was welcome to join me for any of these activities, I wasn't doing them to get away from her, I was doing them simply because I WANT to. This is a big departure from the norm of me asking her what SHE wants to do all the time.

She seems to "get" it. <fingers crossed>


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## Deejo

JoeRockStar said:


> This is what I hinted at with my wife today. I was talking to her about how I made plans with a friend to go riding quads and also to go to a friend's party this upcoming weekend for an acoustic jam.
> 
> Her reaction was "You're on fire, what's gotten into you?". I simply told her that I needed to make some changes in my life so that I'm a happier person. I work hard, I take care of my family, and I DESERVE IT! I told her that she was welcome to join me for any of these activities, I wasn't doing them to get away from her, I was doing them simply because I WANT to. This is a big departure from the norm of me asking her what SHE wants to do all the time.
> 
> She seems to "get" it. <fingers crossed>


That's perfect. Learning to communicate clearly, and effectively with your partner ... IS part of the process.


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## pmiller

Maybe this is my 'judging a book by its cover'.. but I have visited (lurked) on the NMMNG forums and it seems that everything I saw was to take chauvinistic approach to "being a better man". Most of the posts I saw were along the lines of .. "this is what I am doing for ME.. deal with it or PISS off, B!tch!" 

Maybe there are some good points to ponder in the book... but considering what I saw, it is turning men into the type of man that most people don't like or want to be around. Confidence is paramount, but arrogance is pathetic.


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## Conrad

pmiller said:


> Maybe this is my 'judging a book by its cover'.. but I have visited (lurked) on the NMMNG forums and it seems that everything I saw was to take chauvinistic approach to "being a better man". Most of the posts I saw were along the lines of .. "this is what I am doing for ME.. deal with it or PISS off, B!tch!"
> 
> Maybe there are some good points to ponder in the book... but considering what I saw, it is turning men into the type of man that most people don't like or want to be around. Confidence is paramount, but arrogance is pathetic.


And you are female, correct?


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## pmiller

Conrad said:


> And you are female, correct?


not last time I checked


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## Lon

pm, yeah there is a lot of chauvinism there. Because it is needed - these are guys that have ALWAYS been about meeting a woman's needs only, and felt shame for considering their own, masculine needs. The chauvinism is an exercise in breaking out of their lifelong pattern - and that site is a sort of safe place for them to exercise it, when they go out into the world those nice guys will not suddenly be the ass holes of the world, but they will be a little more like the ass holes in the way they are starting to reclaim their confidence and also become more attractive to women who see the person those guys want to see, the real them not the pretend facade they have always worn.


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## AFEH

pmiller said:


> Maybe this is my 'judging a book by its cover'.. but I have visited (lurked) on the NMMNG forums and it seems that everything I saw was to take chauvinistic approach to "being a better man". Most of the posts I saw were along the lines of .. "this is what I am doing for ME.. deal with it or PISS off, B!tch!"
> 
> Maybe there are some good points to ponder in the book... but considering what I saw, it is turning men into the type of man that most people don't like or want to be around. Confidence is paramount, but arrogance is pathetic.


Doesn’t get much more pathetic and arrogant than trashing a book and a process you’ve not read or undertaken.


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## njpca

Well, I started to dig into the first couple chapters. Interesting stuff for sure.

I am thinking about the activity to think by to my childhood and though I have recognized in my later years the type of smothering my family has given, it's difficult to link these instances to childhood moments.

I have always had the sense that I had an ideal family. Both my parents have gone onto 35 years of blissful marriage. They both worked very hard to get where they were. They provided everything for me and tried very hard to give me a very happy and fulfilling life.

I guess maybe I can say didn't get to be as close to my father growing up. He worked and then he also went to night school so he could get his Bachelor's degree. Since my mother worked also, I was always in after school day care, or stayed at my grandparents house for the day. But I know they were doing this to give us all a better life. 

I don't know, my wife says that my family sees themselves at the center of the world and that if people don't obey within those rules, they are considered outcasts. But even in our most difficult times dealing with them, they have always stated that they love and care for me and will be as supportive as possible for my needs.

Anyway, interested to hear if anybody else has thoughts about their childhood and how it could have shaped their childhood.

My own personal task that I given myself so is despite everything, I am going to start show some positive energy within myself and surroundings. I am hoping that my wife will start to see that so I can move into further building my confidence as I continue reading.

Next week I start my "staycation" and am already thinking that I should start a workout regiment again so I can continue building up the positive energy.

Going off this male centric discussion, yeah I get how it can seem like the methods make you look like a jerk or *******. But Dr. Glover does make full note of this before you start if this is something you truly want to do.

I think Lon hits right on the head with the point of chauvinism. I think it is up to the individual to recognize where it is to cross the line and own up to that. But the needs of oneself is important otherwise you will never be happy.

Great stuff so far from you all and great to hear very different sides taken about the book and everyone's experiences


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## AFEH

Njpca, what are your top five reasons for going through the process?


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## njpca

Well not to sound too obvious but:

1) to make myself happy again. The way my life is has been very difficult and trying and I can't sit around just letting myself rot away anymore.

2) To not isolate myself from friends and family anymore and to start building well meaning relationships again.

3) To be respectful to my wife while building my own boundaries within our relationship. I am tired of not being able to have my own voice without feeling ashamed or building up resentment.

4) To feel confident in myself for the first time in my life and not dwell on the little things that make me feel I am not a good person to others.

5) To start expressing myself and how I feel and to not hold back my emotions for other's sake

I hope that's clear and concise and a very great question to pose.


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## AFEH

Deep stuff. It is a journey to be enjoyed while heading for your destination.

I’d recommend you find something to be passionate about just for you. Can be golf, tennis, art, photography, growing veg or flowers, archaeology etc. Experiment with different things until you get into something that really grabs you. A passion can last a life time and be something from which we get an enormous amount of joy and pleasure. One of my passions is photography, I spend time sitting on dunes down by the beach waiting for the sun to get into place for the lighting I want.

You can express yourself through your passions. They bring excitement and pleasure into your life. I spent a couple of hours weeding my veggie plot yesterday, tying back the tomatoes and generally tidying up. It’s a joy to see the tomatoes set and pick a lettuce etc. for dinner. That sort of thing is to get into and you’ll find your life will be exceedingly different.

You also meet new people and make more friends through your passions. Sharing passions is a very bonding experience.


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## Drover

pmiller said:


> Maybe this is my 'judging a book by its cover'.. but I have visited (lurked) on the NMMNG forums and it seems that everything I saw was to take chauvinistic approach to "being a better man". Most of the posts I saw were along the lines of .. "this is what I am doing for ME.. deal with it or PISS off, B!tch!"
> 
> Maybe there are some good points to ponder in the book... but considering what I saw, it is turning men into the type of man that most people don't like or want to be around. Confidence is paramount, but arrogance is pathetic.


If you're here it's because something's not working right. Maybe it's because you've gone pure Beta and while she might not admit it (or even know it), she doesn't like it. Maybe you should consider that adding some Alpha will help you (and her). My wife is a VERY strong, bullheaded, stubborn-ass German/Danish woman who fights and pushes back about everything, and she has started reacting to this approach very quickly.


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## JoeRockStar

pmiller said:


> Maybe this is my 'judging a book by its cover'.. but I have visited (lurked) on the NMMNG forums and it seems that everything I saw was to take chauvinistic approach to "being a better man". Most of the posts I saw were along the lines of .. "this is what I am doing for ME.. deal with it or PISS off, B!tch!"


Unfortunately, it WORKS. Just look at all the gorgeous women who are attracted to guys that treat them like crap. The "nice guys finish last" adage is based on reality and I have seen it time and time again.

Many years ago before I got married, I was a bit of a player. Women were disposable to me, I treated them like crap and when I kicked one to the curb, there were 3 more behind her waiting to take her place. To them I was the "alpha male", I did whatever I wanted whenever I wanted and they were attracted to me as a result.

With my wife, I actually enjoy doting on her but it has created a bad cycle of dependency and I believe to some degree that she lost some respect for me along the way. While I have only begun to reassert myself as the alpha male for a short time, it has already had a positive effect. It doesn't mean that I will no longer do things for her, I have simply stopped doing things for her with the expectation of something in return or if I think it's something she should be doing for herself.

Playing the dominant role in the relationship does not automatically equate to being a jerk.  Call it chauvinistic if you must, but right now I'm the happiest I've been in a LONG time and I've only just begun to apply the principles in the book. And, more importantly, my wife is responding positively thus far. :smthumbup:


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## JoeRockStar

So last night was the first "push back" from my wife. She had gotten into an argument with my daughter (teenagers... ) and was in a pissy mood. She called me around 6 and angrily asked when I was coming home. I kept my cool and told her I was still working trying to wrap up a project and I was leaving shortly. She started complaining that she had made dinner and it was going to get cold.

Now...let me pause for a second. Because of my wife's depression, she had been avoiding a lot of her responsibilities including making dinner and I would often wind up cooking after coming home from work. This is the 2nd day in a row that she's actually made dinner without me having to ask her! 

Back to the story - I calmly told her that she didn't tell me she was making dinner at a specific time, had I known I would've left earlier or asked her to hold off until I could leave. I didn't apologize either although I had to stop myself from doing so out of old habit. She started getting even more angry, then I said "stop - don't try to pick a fight with me because it isn't going to work, I'm leaving shortly and will be home soon. If you're that hungry, eat without me." She hung up on me.

Now, normally I get enraged when she does this but again, I kept my cool. A little while later, I called her back and asked in a cheery voice "do you feel any better now?" She got even more angry and hung up on me again. I fought back the urge to get angry once again, turned on the radio and listened to some music to calm me down.

When I got home, dinner was ready but she was up in bed. I went upstairs and said very nicely "hey sweetie, come on let's eat" like nothing happened. She opened her eyes, looked at me with a strange look, then got up and come downstairs.

I spent most of the meal joking around with my son about stuff and made it a point to remain pleasant. After dinner, we ALL cleared the table and she did the dishes. I could feel her tension slowly but surely melting away! :smthumbup:

After dinner, I went back to working on cleaning out the spare bedroom for my man cave (have a separate thread on this). About a 1/2 hour later, she came to me laughing and asked me to come and watch the episode of "Dogs in the City" that she was watching.

We ended up watching the show together laughing our behinds off and went to bed after that with both of us in a good mood. 

I simply REFUSED to have her ruin my good mood and once she realized that she was NOT going to get to me, she relented and had a nice evening herself. :smthumbup: I effectively took CONTROL of the situation and defused the entire argument.

I'm ecstatic and look forward to continuing down the path I'm on. A week ago, I thought I was doomed to divorce, now I'm not so sure - but...I'm going to be the happy man I deserve to be REGARDLESS. As the book astutely says, the only person on this planet responsible for my happiness is ME.


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## pmiller

AFEH said:


> Doesn’t get much more pathetic and arrogant than trashing a book and a process you’ve not read or undertaken.


I'm sorry.. are you the pot or the kettle?


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## LFC

I think with any forum you have to learn which posters give the good advice and which to ignore , I'd say there at least 20 guys if not more worth listening too


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## pmiller

Also, I am not condemning the book.. I haven't read it to make my own mind up. I am just making an observation and I guess asking for other opinions. Considering what I saw on the forums, if those people were pure beta, they have swung to pure alpha. Maybe that is part of the process, I don't know.

JoeRockStar: I don't know you and have not read any of your posts before, but I am glad that you found something that is working for you. Maybe I _should_ read it and see how it goes.


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## JoeRockStar

pmiller said:


> JoeRockStar: I don't know you and have not read any of your posts before, but I am glad that you found something that is working for you. Maybe I _should_ read it and see how it goes.


Thank you! It's a short book and definitely worth the read.

If anything the book is bluntly critical of us "nice guys" and forces us to reassess ourselves as men.

In my case, when I met and married my wife, I was the "alpha male". I always treated her with respect and still do but I was the decision maker.

13 years ago, my wife's brother committed suicide without any warning. My wife was understandably devastated. I fell into a role of coddling her because I felt terrible and didn't know how to help her with her distress. This pattern continued and was reestablished when her mother came down with lung cancer and subsequently passed away last year.

So, in my case, I'm not so much changing as getting back to where I was when we first met, fell in love, and got married. I'm trying to give HER back the man she fell for as well as getting my personal happiness back so it's really a win for both of us.


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## Thor

The opposite of Nice is not Jerk. Doc Glover explains it well in the book that he isn't trying to turn beta wimps into jerky a-holes. He uses the term "Integrated Male" as the desired destination. An IM is one who knows himself and is confident in himself. An IM acts with integrity. A married IM will be a better husband and a better father because he acts with integrity.

It isn't about gaming the system, or being some kind of jerk pick up artist with the wife. An IM will be a leader in the relationship, but not a dictator.

The NMMNG forum is not about gentle hugs or teary eyed commiseration. There is definitely loving support over there, but it is the kind of support that a big brother or an uncle might give you.

Chauvinistic? Hardly. Unless you consider Athol Kaye and David Deida mcp's.


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## Racer

I’m over on those forums, and probably considered one of the chest beaters (I added the same avatar here to make it easy to figure out who I am). So, something else you should recognize and try to understand.... Everyone’s story is different as are our spouses. My wife did terrible and cruel things to me for over a decade; there is a lot of hurt and pain inside. So, that disturbing question entered my head: “How the hell did I end up here?” I’m a good person, the sort that no one has any issue with, that girls would bring home to meet mom and dad, that clients liked, that other parents enjoyed watching me play with my kids with a ‘what a great Dad!’, etc... No one on the outside thought ‘he deserves this’.. So how did this happen? 

It would have been extremely easy to just blame my wife... but that’s not entirely true. I let her lead us down this road. I didn’t challenge her. I avoided the fights because she’s much better at it and it wasn’t in my ‘belief system’ that a fight is a good thing. So, I caved, I became a doormat... and the result was less and less respect for such a weak thing regardless of how nice and laidback I was. 

And on the inside; I was hurting. I gave and gave, yet only scraps were thrown back. If I stopped giving, out came the stick. The giving became the expectation. And just as bad, once that gift became ‘normal’ she looked for the next bigger, better gifts and would whine and complain. Over a few years, my life was docked in orbit around my wife’s needs and wants. And it irritated me; passive/aggressive traits began as I tried to reel in and self-soothe myself knowing I had become a doormat at the beck and call of a confrontational, tantrum throwing, abusive spouse.

So, for the last three years, it has been a journey to change my lot in life.


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## JoeRockStar

Racer said:


> It would have been extremely easy to just blame my wife... but that’s not entirely true. I let her lead us down this road. I didn’t challenge her. I avoided the fights because she’s much better at it and it wasn’t in my ‘belief system’ that a fight is a good thing. So, I caved, I became a doormat... and the result was less and less respect for such a weak thing regardless of how nice and laidback I was.


BINGO! For years I blamed my wife for my troubles and commiserated to my friends about how cruel she could be. She's no angel by any means, but now that I have started to look at myself as part of the problem, things have begun to change for the better. 

Like it or not, many women will try and see what they can get away with and then lose respect for the man if he lets it go too far. Setting clear boundaries will result in a happier life for both parties.


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## thunderstruck

pmiller said:


> Most of the posts I saw were along the lines of .. "this is what I am doing for ME.. deal with it or P*SS off, Btch!"


Not quite. It's more, "I'm doing this for me. You can join me on my journey, or you can choose to move on." Nothing wrong with that.


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## Drover

Racer said:


> It would have been extremely easy to just blame my wife... but that’s not entirely true. I let her lead us down this road. I didn’t challenge her. I avoided the fights because she’s much better at it and it wasn’t in my ‘belief system’ that a fight is a good thing. So, I caved, I became a doormat... and the result was less and less respect for such a weak thing regardless of how nice and laidback I was.


This. Ir's not about chauvinism or misogyny or being an *******. It's about taking responsibility for your own mistakes that wrecked your relationship and correcting them.


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## pmiller

I'll most likely check it out.. the comments here prove that it helps some people out.. maybe I fit the mold. 
Is this it? Amazon.com: No More Mr. Nice Guy! (9780762415335): Robert A. Glover: Books


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## JoeRockStar

pmiller said:


> I'll most likely check it out.. the comments here prove that it helps some people out.. maybe I fit the mold.
> Is this it? Amazon.com: No More Mr. Nice Guy! (9780762415335): Robert A. Glover: Books


Yes that's the one.


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## pmiller

Thanks


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## turnera

pmiller said:


> Considering what I saw on the forums, if those people were pure beta, they have swung to pure alpha. Maybe that is part of the process


Of course it is. These men have been holding back their feelings, thoughts, and actions for years, probably their whole lives. Once they realize they can speak out and not get clobbered for it, well, it feels good!

And you have to remember that a forum is poplulated with Joe Blow people who came there because they were dysfunctional. The BOOK, on the other hand, is written by someone who knows what he's talking about, what works. Hard to condemn a book because of the dysfunctional people who NEED it.


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## joshbjoshb

JoeRockStar said:


> So last night was the first "push back" from my wife. She had gotten into an argument with my daughter (teenagers... ) and was in a pissy mood. She called me around 6 and angrily asked when I was coming home. I kept my cool and told her I was still working trying to wrap up a project and I was leaving shortly. She started complaining that she had made dinner and it was going to get cold.
> 
> Now...let me pause for a second. Because of my wife's depression, she had been avoiding a lot of her responsibilities including making dinner and I would often wind up cooking after coming home from work. This is the 2nd day in a row that she's actually made dinner without me having to ask her!
> 
> Back to the story - I calmly told her that she didn't tell me she was making dinner at a specific time, had I known I would've left earlier or asked her to hold off until I could leave. I didn't apologize either although I had to stop myself from doing so out of old habit. She started getting even more angry, then I said "stop - don't try to pick a fight with me because it isn't going to work, I'm leaving shortly and will be home soon. If you're that hungry, eat without me." She hung up on me.
> 
> Now, normally I get enraged when she does this but again, I kept my cool. A little while later, I called her back and asked in a cheery voice "do you feel any better now?" She got even more angry and hung up on me again. I fought back the urge to get angry once again, turned on the radio and listened to some music to calm me down.
> 
> When I got home, dinner was ready but she was up in bed. I went upstairs and said very nicely "hey sweetie, come on let's eat" like nothing happened. She opened her eyes, looked at me with a strange look, then got up and come downstairs.
> 
> I spent most of the meal joking around with my son about stuff and made it a point to remain pleasant. After dinner, we ALL cleared the table and she did the dishes. I could feel her tension slowly but surely melting away! :smthumbup:
> 
> After dinner, I went back to working on cleaning out the spare bedroom for my man cave (have a separate thread on this). About a 1/2 hour later, she came to me laughing and asked me to come and watch the episode of "Dogs in the City" that she was watching.
> 
> We ended up watching the show together laughing our behinds off and went to bed after that with both of us in a good mood.
> 
> I simply REFUSED to have her ruin my good mood and once she realized that she was NOT going to get to me, she relented and had a nice evening herself. :smthumbup: I effectively took CONTROL of the situation and defused the entire argument.
> 
> I'm ecstatic and look forward to continuing down the path I'm on. A week ago, I thought I was doomed to divorce, now I'm not so sure - but...I'm going to be the happy man I deserve to be REGARDLESS. As the book astutely says, the only person on this planet responsible for my happiness is ME.


G-d bless you! This is great stuff. As a recovering nice guy myself I still didn't master how to keep my calm, I loose it here and there and this is something I have to work on 

But one thing I can say: stopping to be a nice guy really changed my life for the better. I am not the same person I used to be


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## njpca

Man, why does my first real fitness test while going through this have to be an extremely difficult situation. I'm sure I failed it miserable but I can let you all be the judge. Also I am including the emails verbatim to try to be as clear as possible, so please be aware when you read this it can be a little long:

So a whole bunch of Facebook drama occurred on my wife's facebook the other day. I currently don't have a Facebook account so she sometimes lets me know of updates on people. One of my friend's wife was posting some stuff and my wife (being a mutual friend said this as a comment):

"I think I feel what both of you do - it stresses me out to be spontaneous on dinner every day because I hate going to the store that often; but I also get stressed when trying to plan out everything for the week because it's a lot of work and sometimes I get ideas mid-week for something that sounds really good. So I do the bulk grocery shopping on the weekends and get all of the essentials that go into almost everything we eat (most of which ends up being frozen until the day-of) and then decide each day what to make with it all. And I think you are super lucky to have a husband that loves to cook ... My husband (Me) hasn't been able to cook many meals since we were dating!

To which my friend then commented on the same post (Note: I haven't even spoken to him in almost two years):

"perhaps if you didn't bash him every chance you get on FB, your blog or "book" if you can call it that, he might be more inclined to cook. Oh, but then again he's working two jobs while you sit at home and ***** & moan."

My wife was completely caught off guard and immediately blocked him on FB (he had already unfriended her awhile back I guess with saying why). 

Knowing that I couldn't deal with losing yet another friend or relationship out of my life anymore, I decided to take the initiative myself and try to talk this through with him. I wrote the following to see if I could get him to make amends of the situation:

"I wanted to contact you in regards to everything that happened yesterday and to hopefully get this straightened out. I know that we haven’t spoken in a while and I can only blame myself for any miscommunication because of this. First, I appreciate your intention of sticking up for everything I have done in my relationship with (my wife). Not many people would do that for me in such a direct as you did. However, I don’t understand why your comments had to come out in such strong and negative wording. I don’t know what she does on Facebook and don’t always read her tweets and blogs, but I do know that sometimes her posts and writings can be exaggerated and sarcastic, mostly to humor people. In the future, if there is anything that is bothering or concerns you in regards to what she says, do not hesitate to contact me directly so that it won’t resort to such lashing out.

Also, between you and me, I am going to start making significant changes in my own personal life and am starting to follow a step by step program to help me guide me through this. Part of succeeding in that is to not avoid conflict anymore, which is why I am reaching out to try to solve these issues and not let them continue to drag my life down. I have no control over whether or not any of the progress I make improves my relationship with (my wife) or anybody else, so I hope you will listen to what I am saying and understand where I am coming from when I ask you to just please stop this nonsense.

I know you and (his wife) are good people and I do not want to lose any more relationships in my life anymore, no matter how close or distant people may be from me, so I ask that you consider everything in this matter hopefully make amends to the situation. If you do not wish to do so, I will understand and wish the best for you and your family in the future."

He then responded:

"I miss you, buddy. Actually, it's no miscommunication on your behalf. 

Personally, I grew to call you a great friend, and always hoped to have your best interest at heart. My biggest problem, and why I even unfriended (my wife), was her past posts which are written as if to publicly dehumanize, demean and bash you. Regardless of sarcasm, or exaggeration, it doesn't read that way, and I've always been offended by it. In-fact, (his wife) and I often talk about how ill she speaks of your relationship and both of us get defensive for you, and how much she offends both of us with it.

My post was written from a "straw that breaks the camel's back" mentality, where I've been fed up with the negative and incessant posts that she continues to put on (his wife's) wall.

I hope it's not viewed as a poor reflection on our friendship, but how I wish she publicly treated you better - even just rhetorically."

I then responded:

"I really appreciate the honesty and forthright to be open about this. Yes, I understand what you mean about what is seen on the internet, I am sure it’s so easy to have things misconstrued when you do not want to go into long winded writings on these sites and I know (my wife) can be quite blunt about things as it is. Life has been very tough recently and she doesn’t have many people to directly turn to and vent her frustrations.

As I said, I am going to start working harder on making myself happy again with my life, so I can only hope that the positive energy will roll off onto to her and we all won’t have to see such a negative tone in her writing and communication.

Regardless of whether you and (my wife) want to try to work out this quarrel on your own, I am not going to hold any long term ill will to both you and (his wife) and I hope we can use this as a way to build upon our friendship down the road.

Thanks again for being there for me and I hope to speak with you sometime in the near future."



I decided to not say anything to my wife about this email exchange, mainly because I did not want to her know I spoke of the changes I was going to make.

Then this evening, she called me and started asking questions about this email exchange because my friend's wife emailed my wife saying she did want any part in it all and just wanted to try to say friends.

My wife started confronting me about everything I said. At first I backed away and tried to dodge it all, but then I thought of the NMMNG approach to it. I explicitly explained to her that I wanted to directly contact on my own, without her help and try to take matter into my own hands. I spoke that I was tired of losing all the friends we had had in our lives and wanted to get him to try to work things out with her. I then said, I don't have any control in whether or not he would, but I was going to at least going to make an effort and try to defend her instead of looking like a coward to the whole situation.

She completely looked all past that and just started spouting how distrustful I was being and that I didn't communicate with her about this at all. She then started going through her posts to show how little she talks about me in her daily life and posed whether I believed her and not him.

I said, yes I believe you, which is why I confronted him in the first place because it made no sense to me."

Long story short, she felt betrayed and hurt that I was trying to save a friendship rather than be more harsh and critical to him.

I have no idea why he would lie to me about this. He doesn't even have a motivation because they live much too far to even see on occasion. I know he is a strong personality and probably can be a little abrasive, but his words speak for themself.

So, I failed this test badly, didn't I? What should I have done differently? I am really sorry if this long winded but I wanted to try to get feedback from anybody and try to be as clear as possible about it all.


----------



## AFEH

There’s a few things. First off do not tell anyone about the process you are going through! Just don’t do that. Rather “Be the person you want to be”. As soon as and as quick as you do that you ARE the person you want to be.


Secondly you seem to have a lot of passive aggression in you. Or at least your words are kind of “threat loaded”. Here’s an example _“I know you and (his wife) are good people and I do not want to lose any more relationships in my life anymore, no matter how close or distant people may be from me, so I ask that you consider everything in this matter hopefully make amends to the situation. If you do not wish to do so, I will understand and wish the best for you and your family in the future."_


_“….. so I hope you will listen to what I am saying and understand where I am coming from when I ask you to just please *stop this nonsense*”._ Geesh where on earth did you learn to be so exceedingly dismissive of another person! And wow where did you ever learn to be so very ungrateful towards someone who’s trying to help and support you.


I think the really big thing is the “dysfunctional dynamics” you have in your life. And now you’ve got yourself “more involved” the dynamics have increased but they are just as dysfunctional as before. So you now have MORE dysfunctional dynamics in your life and you are making things worse, not better!


In essence it’s like you’ve picked up a book on heart surgery and after reading just two chapters you’re performing a heart operation! At least read the whole book and do the exercises before you perform any operations. 

The really big thing that’s good is you’re posting here. Others can see your thought processes and so can you. But you are operating from the almost total perspective of your ego. Basically it’s your ego that you are trying to change, sometimes that ego resists change and is it’s own worse enemy.

You need to be able to see your ego at work, while it’s working as opposed to in hindsight. Read Awareness by Anthony de Mello and he will teach you how.

You know the more we try and “force” change, the more resistance we get so the harder change becomes. You are running around a bit like a directionless headless chicken. The authors of the books wrote so they can be your guide and point you in the right directions. It’s a bit pointless if you don’t finish reading the books before you put the lessons into actions!


Sometimes these things are one step forward and two back. That usually happens when you go off half_c*ck by reading half a book. If you get to three steps forward and one back then that’s progress!


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> Long story short, she felt betrayed and hurt that I was trying to save a friendship rather than be more harsh and critical to him.


First, this is her saying "if you don't puff out your chest and fight for my honor, you don't love me." Ridiculous. She really needs to get help to learn what real love is. Her insecurity drives her need to have you keep doing this stuff. Ignore it all.



njpca said:


> So, I failed this test badly, didn't I? What should I have done differently? I am really sorry if this long winded but I wanted to try to get feedback from anybody and try to be as clear as possible about it all.


No, not at all. Maybe you could have mentioned to her in a drive-by comment that you contacted him, but nothing more. That's part of losing your Nice Guy - not needing to run to her for her approval. You did the right thing. SHE doesn't like it, but too bad so sad, right?

Remember that she's gonna go through one hell of a Change Back! reaction to what you're doing, to try to force you to change back into the man she thinks she wants. Ignore it all. Stay the course. Eventually, she's going to respond to this new you and love it.


----------



## turnera

AFEH's right in that the words you chose with the guy...well, they made me wince a little. But you'll get better. My DH loves to write emails to people when he gets mad at them. Really ridiculous emails that make him look like an idiot. And yes, I tell him so. And then I ask him to just CALL the person and talk it out, which he is amazing at doing (he's a salesman). When I read your story, I kept thinking, why the hell didn't he just call the guy?


----------



## FormerNiceGuy

pmiller said:


> I'll most likely check it out.. the comments here prove that it helps some people out.. maybe I fit the mold.
> Is this it? Amazon.com: No More Mr. Nice Guy! (9780762415335): Robert A. Glover: Books


I am a fan of audio self-help books. I find them easier to digest.

I bought the audiobook version of NMMNG and then the Kindle version in order to do the breaking free exercises. The book helped me and my relationship tremendously.


----------



## FormerNiceGuy

njpca said:


> So, I failed this test badly, didn't I? What should I have done differently? I am really sorry if this long winded but I wanted to try to get feedback from anybody and try to be as clear as possible about it all.


I agree with much of the general feedback of the other commentators, but......

First, congratulate yourself. This was far from a fail. You succeeded by changing your behavior. :smthumbup:

You need to start blurting. Let it out. It will be a little ugly at first, but you will like the feeling and will get calmer and more eloquent with practice. 

I would stay away from email and use the telephone. Your email was a blurt. Parts of it make me cringe, but the important point is that you stated what YOU wanted. That is the key.

I think a more integrated approach would have been to shoot your buddy a one liner that says - "Ha - got a good chuckle out of your post. Let's grab a beer (or schedule a call if he is distant), would love to catch up."

With the wife, when she confronted, "the truth hurts" and then disengage. If she pushes, "this isn't about John, it is about how you treat me and I don't like it. It will stop."

Go grab the beer with John (have the call) and keep on working on yourself.


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## turnera

I _would_ like to point out that when she says negative things about you...she has a point. You ARE making her unhappy and it behooves you to find out in what ways. Part of it is being a Nice Guy, but part of it is probably legitimate complaints. For example, you've been married how long? And you've cooked maybe 10 meals? So, say you've been married 15 years, and you've cooked 10 meals because you say you suck at cooking, that means that she has cooked about 5000 dinners, give or take a few hundred for meals out or vacations. So, because you refuse to improve your cooking skills and give her a break once in a while, say once a month even, she _legitimately_ gripes on forums or FB that she has to do all the cooking. Even if she tries to make it sound like a joke, she's still unhappy about it. And she is INFORMING you of it. 

What are you going to do about it?

You could:
Take a cooking class with her (remember you have to spend 15 hours a week together doing bonding stuff)
Get with the kids and get out a recipe and learn to cook it WITH the kids, to give her a break
Stay in the kitchen with her while she's cooking and ask her to show you how she's making that spaghetti sauce

Just for starters.


----------



## AFEH

turnera said:


> Remember that she's gonna go through one hell of a Change Back! reaction to what you're doing, to try to force you to change back into the man she thinks she wants. Ignore it all. Stay the course. Eventually, she's going to respond to this new you and love it.


Thing is he is not happy with who he is. In fact he is so unhappy with who he is that’s he’s set out to change himself. It could be that if his wife doesn’t like and love who he is now, she may like and love even less the man he becomes!


So who his wife wants him to be, the type of man his wife wants is not his goal! His goal is to be the man he wants to be. If his wife likes and loves that man then it’s a real bonus! But that’s what it is, a bonus, not the main prize of what he is doing.


----------



## turnera

That's true. She may have married him, wanting a Nice Guy. Then again, we don't really know her side. It's essential to do the work for yourself, regardless of what your spouse wants.


----------



## Drover

turnera said:


> When I read your story, I kept thinking, why the hell didn't he just call the guy?


Sometimes writing emails is a way of arranging your thoughts to best say what you mean so there are no misunderstandings as there may be when you're talking spur of the moment. But sometimes they're just a way of avoiding having to confront someone fave-to-face.


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## Drover

JoeRockStar said:


> A little while later, I called her back and asked in a cheery voice "do you feel any better now?" She got even more angry and hung up on me again. I fought back the urge to get angry once again, turned on the radio and listened to some music to calm me down.


This is my only issue with the way you handled things. Why did you call her back? She acted badly and you went back for more. If she felt bad about the previous call, let her call you and apologize. That strikes me as either you being needy and hoping she wasn't still mad. OR you wanting just to rub her nose in the previous exchange. What good could have come from that call back?


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## turnera

Good point. Major Nice Guy act.


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## njpca

Ok, good points all around and more to digest for future reference

AFEH, If anything in my emails seemed over the top and harsh to my friend, I think it's because I have been so passive in dealing with these situations, that when I finally push back it can kind of come off with the resentment that I have been building up over not dealing with it. Also, with my wife's strong attitudes, I think she has somewhat trained me to be a blunt and straightforward person and I may not be expressing my feelings the way I really want because of that.

I never know whether email or telephone is the right way to go because I don't even know which I communicate better with. I do see advantages and disadvantages to both. My wife says the same thing about being able to clearly gather your thoughts when you write, but I am sure the tone of how you speak to someone can speak volumes to what you are saying.

Do you think I made things worse with my friend? He never responded back again to my other email. I kind of have accepted the fate that I can't be friends with him anymore because of what my wife thinks of him.

Also, about the cooking, I get what you are saying about her complaints. To be honest, I actually love cooking and experimented a lot before I even got married. 

Now, my wife doesn't like me to cook because I screw everything up and get in her way or try to make something that is disgusting. Also, unless its the weekend she and the children like to eat before I get home anyway and we created a eat out food budget to take the burden out of the cooking. 

Plus I we got a basic grill, and I started handling some the barbecue duties which I felt really good about. So I'm trying to create the balance and not make things as difficult for her.

I'll continue to keep working on improving myself in the practice of my changes.

Thanks very much for the reads and insight


----------



## JoeRockStar

Drover said:


> This is my only issue with the way you handled things. Why did you call her back? She acted badly and you went back for more. If she felt bad about the previous call, let her call you and apologize. That strikes me as either you being needy and hoping she wasn't still mad. OR you wanting just to rub her nose in the previous exchange. What good could have come from that call back?


Normally had she hung up on me, I would've either called back and flipped out on her or not called back and come through the door infuriated and continue the fight then. She knows this full well. I purposely did it to prove to her that she was NOT going to get to me. The fact that I was almost mockingly cheerful thoroughly ticked her off! 

I can understand how you came to those conclusions based on my post and appreciate the advice. Had I called her back to continue the argument as I normally would have, your assessment would've been spot on.


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## Tall Average Guy

njpca said:


> I never know whether email or telephone is the right way to go because I don't even know which I communicate better with. I do see advantages and disadvantages to both. My wife says the same thing about being able to clearly gather your thoughts when you write, but I am sure the tone of how you speak to someone can speak volumes to what you are saying.


By phone or in person is almost always better, as email lacks tone. Write down what you want to say to keep your thoughts organized and on track, but by talking, you are able to communciate anger, sadness or humor that is often missing in email.



> Do you think I made things worse with my friend? He never responded back again to my other email. I kind of have accepted the fate that I can't be friends with him anymore because of what my wife thinks of him.


Call him and find out. As far as not being friends, why not? Do you think any of your wife's friends that bad mouth you automatically get banned by her? You chose your friends, not her. She does not have to hang out with him, but she can't stop you from having him as a friend.


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## AFEH

Njpca you have so many rules around yourself that are governed by your wife! 

You wont have your friend as a friend because of your wife. Sort it! Just tell your wife that in the future he will be respectful to her because you asked him to.

You don’t cook because your wife doesn’t like you cooking. What!!! Cook and be damned! Let her have all the temper tantrums she wants and tear the roof down but you go right ahead and cook.

What! You started handling some of the BBQ duties! MEN OWN THE BBQ!!! So OWN the thing. And again let her have her temper tantrums if that’s how she responds. Let her walk off, let her take the kids if she wants but YOU OWN THE BBQ!!! Got it?

As for your friend call him and discuss things in a quite, confidential way between men. THAT’S WHAT FRIENDS ARE FOR!!!! Most especially male friends!


----------



## AFEH

JoeRockStar said:


> Normally had she hung up on me, I would've either called back and flipped out on her or not called back and come through the door infuriated and continue the fight then. She knows this full well. I purposely did it to prove to her that she was NOT going to get to me. _*The fact that I was almost mockingly cheerful thoroughly ticked her off!*_
> 
> I can understand how you came to those conclusions based on my post and appreciate the advice. Had I called her back to continue the argument as I normally would have, your assessment would've been spot on.


That’s Passive Aggression!!!

Drop that stuff like it’s molten iron burning through your hand.


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> Now, my wife doesn't like me to cook because I screw everything up and get in her way or try to make something that is disgusting. Also, unless its the weekend she and the children like to eat before I get home anyway and we created a eat out food budget to take the burden out of the cooking.


The point is, she has mentioned it to other people. That doesn't come out of the blue; so give it the respect it deserves. You're a smart guy, you can figure out how to take the burden off of her now and then. Weekends are fine. In fact, give her a 'day off' now and then by taking over the whole family thing. But not in a Nice Guy way, of course. 

I also recommend printing out the Love Buster questionnaire from marriagebuilders.com (but avoid their toxic forums). Both of you fill them out, and it allows you to tell her what she does that annoys you, and the same for her. Once you know, work hard to eliminate those bad habits; the less you annoy her, the easier it is for her to be happy with you and want to make YOU happy. And once you start doing that, combined with no more Nice Guy, and she'll be jumping over herself to show you love.


----------



## JoeRockStar

AFEH said:


> That’s Passive Aggression!!!
> 
> Drop that stuff like it’s molten iron burning through your hand.


Yeah but it was fun.  You're right, in hindsight I should've NOT called her back and just gone about my business. Duly noted for next time! :smthumbup:


----------



## AFEH

JoeRockStar said:


> Yeah but it was fun.  You're right, in hindsight I should've NOT called her back and just gone about my business. Duly noted for next time! :smthumbup:


Do you really not know just how girly that  stuff is?


----------



## Drover

AFEH said:


> Do you really not know just how girly that  stuff is?


You don't :smthumbup: the  ? I'm very  by that. :scratchhead:


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## AFEH

It’s girly. Seven maybe eight year old girly stuff.


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## Matt1720

If I may, the emoticons are used to prevent misunderstanding because often text does not convey the emotion. 

Nice guys hate being misunderstood. They are afraid of the potential conflict. 

In my personal experience, I've received a few replies I considered to be outright rude. Then I thank the poster for their opinion, ask more questions, and realize they are just trying to help and that they more than willing to explain.


----------



## Conrad

Matt1720 said:


> If I may, the emoticons are used to prevent misunderstanding because often text does not convey the emotion.
> 
> Nice guys hate being misunderstood. They are afraid of the potential conflict.
> 
> In my personal experience, I've received a few replies I considered to be outright rude. Then I thank the poster for their opinion, ask more questions, and realize they are just trying to help and that they more than willing to explain.


I'm glad you understand me Matt.


----------



## AFEH

Matt1720 said:


> If I may, the emoticons are used to prevent misunderstanding because often text does not convey the emotion.
> 
> Nice guys hate being misunderstood. They are afraid of the potential conflict.
> 
> In my personal experience, I've received a few replies I considered to be outright rude. Then I thank the poster for their opinion, ask more questions, and realize they are just trying to help and that they more than willing to explain.


Seems camp, gay to me.

If that’s what the NG wishes to project as opposed to the “possibility” of being misunderstood and the subsequent “possibility” of going into conflict then so be it.

I don’t see how it helps the NG to project being camp or gay (girly) in his “manning up” process. I don’t see it at all.

I don’t mean this in any unkind way at all but just maybe some of you NG’s are having a pretty big identity crisis. In that you’re projecting being camp or gay but want to be seen as a real heterosexual man. Seems mutually exclusive to me, in that it’s either one or the other.


----------



## Lyris

I don't use emoticons because they are usually sarcastic, passive aggressive or annoying. And I'm a woman. 

Don't equate girly with gay men. It's insulting to both women and gay men. To women, because it's just another example of people seeing perceived feminine traits as negative and undesirable. To gay men because it denies their masculinity. And "real, heterosexual man"? So homosexual and bisexual men aren't real?

I've read and respected so many of your posts, AFEH. I'm surprised to read something so misogynistic and homophobic from you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Lyris said:


> I don't use emoticons because they are usually sarcastic, passive aggressive or annoying. And I'm a woman.
> 
> Don't equate girly with gay men. It's insulting to both women and gay men. To women, because it's just another example of people seeing perceived feminine traits as negative and undesirable. To gay men because it denies their masculinity. And "real, heterosexual man"? So homosexual and bisexual men aren't real?
> 
> I've read and respected so many of your posts, AFEH. I'm surprised to read something so misogynistic and homophobic from you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:sleeping:


----------



## Lyris

Ha! That made me laugh! Feeling a bit girly, AFEH?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Lyris said:


> Ha! That made me laugh! Feeling a bit girly, AFEH?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:sleeping:


----------



## FormerNiceGuy

Lyris said:


> It's insulting to both women and gay men. ..........
> 
> To gay men because it denies their *masculinity*.


:scratchhead:

:scratchhead:
:lol:
:rofl:

From Wikipedia: "Masculinity is possessing qualities or characteristics considered typical of or appropriate to a man."

"An oxymoron (plural oxymorons or oxymora) (from Greek ὀξύμωρον, "sharp dull") is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms."


----------



## turnera

I know lots of gay men who are more masculine than some straight men I know. My older brother tried to set me up with his friend, when I was about 20 and the guy was about 24, cos he didn't know the guy was gay. I could bring up several other examples.


----------



## Drover

turnera said:


> I know lots of gay men who are more masculine than some straight men I know. My older brother tried to set me up with his friend, when I was about 20 and the guy was about 24, cos he didn't know the guy was gay. I could bring up several other examples.


He meant gay not gay.


----------



## DTO

Conrad said:


> Don't even tell her about it.
> 
> Share it later after she notices the new you - and likes it.
> 
> Given the dynamic currently in your home, if you tell her about it now, it will cause many more problems than it solves.


Yeah, I see the advice in the book to tell your wife about your process, and I wholeheartedly disagree with it in general. The problem (not addressed in the book) is that some wives actually like the Nice Guy that they can dominate. Telling them it is about to go away makes it harder for the guy to change.


----------



## MEM2020

NJ,
This is a great thread. I absolutely believe that most of us, come pre-packaged with "protect and serve" circuitry. Without an intentional process for managing those circuits, you have a good chance of ending up a a very committed servant. And the collateral damage is that your W, gradually gets more difficult






njpca said:


> Well, I started to dig into the first couple chapters. Interesting stuff for sure.
> 
> I am thinking about the activity to think by to my childhood and though I have recognized in my later years the type of smothering my family has given, it's difficult to link these instances to childhood moments.
> 
> I have always had the sense that I had an ideal family. Both my parents have gone onto 35 years of blissful marriage. They both worked very hard to get where they were. They provided everything for me and tried very hard to give me a very happy and fulfilling life.
> 
> I guess maybe I can say didn't get to be as close to my father growing up. He worked and then he also went to night school so he could get his Bachelor's degree. Since my mother worked also, I was always in after school day care, or stayed at my grandparents house for the day. But I know they were doing this to give us all a better life.
> 
> I don't know, my wife says that my family sees themselves at the center of the world and that if people don't obey within those rules, they are considered outcasts. But even in our most difficult times dealing with them, they have always stated that they love and care for me and will be as supportive as possible for my needs.
> 
> Anyway, interested to hear if anybody else has thoughts about their childhood and how it could have shaped their childhood.
> 
> My own personal task that I given myself so is despite everything, I am going to start show some positive energy within myself and surroundings. I am hoping that my wife will start to see that so I can move into further building my confidence as I continue reading.
> 
> Next week I start my "staycation" and am already thinking that I should start a workout regiment again so I can continue building up the positive energy.
> 
> Going off this male centric discussion, yeah I get how it can seem like the methods make you look like a jerk or *******. But Dr. Glover does make full note of this before you start if this is something you truly want to do.
> 
> I think Lon hits right on the head with the point of chauvinism. I think it is up to the individual to recognize where it is to cross the line and own up to that. But the needs of oneself is important otherwise you will never be happy.
> 
> Great stuff so far from you all and great to hear very different sides taken about the book and everyone's experiences


----------



## Deejo

njpca said:


> Man, why does my first real fitness test while going through this have to be an extremely difficult situation. I'm sure I failed it miserable but I can let you all be the judge. Also I am including the emails verbatim to try to be as clear as possible, so please be aware when you read this it can be a little long:
> 
> So a whole bunch of Facebook drama occurred on my wife's facebook the other day. I currently don't have a Facebook account so she sometimes lets me know of updates on people. One of my friend's wife was posting some stuff and my wife (being a mutual friend said this as a comment):
> 
> "I think I feel what both of you do - it stresses me out to be spontaneous on dinner every day because I hate going to the store that often; but I also get stressed when trying to plan out everything for the week because it's a lot of work and sometimes I get ideas mid-week for something that sounds really good. So I do the bulk grocery shopping on the weekends and get all of the essentials that go into almost everything we eat (most of which ends up being frozen until the day-of) and then decide each day what to make with it all. And I think you are super lucky to have a husband that loves to cook ... My husband (Me) hasn't been able to cook many meals since we were dating!
> 
> To which my friend then commented on the same post (Note: I haven't even spoken to him in almost two years):
> 
> "perhaps if you didn't bash him every chance you get on FB, your blog or "book" if you can call it that, he might be more inclined to cook. Oh, but then again he's working two jobs while you sit at home and ***** & moan."
> 
> My wife was completely caught off guard and immediately blocked him on FB (he had already unfriended her awhile back I guess with saying why).
> 
> Knowing that I couldn't deal with losing yet another friend or relationship out of my life anymore, I decided to take the initiative myself and try to talk this through with him. I wrote the following to see if I could get him to make amends of the situation:
> 
> "I wanted to contact you in regards to everything that happened yesterday and to hopefully get this straightened out. I know that we haven’t spoken in a while and I can only blame myself for any miscommunication because of this. First, I appreciate your intention of sticking up for everything I have done in my relationship with (my wife). Not many people would do that for me in such a direct as you did. However, I don’t understand why your comments had to come out in such strong and negative wording. I don’t know what she does on Facebook and don’t always read her tweets and blogs, but I do know that sometimes her posts and writings can be exaggerated and sarcastic, mostly to humor people. In the future, if there is anything that is bothering or concerns you in regards to what she says, do not hesitate to contact me directly so that it won’t resort to such lashing out.
> 
> Also, between you and me, I am going to start making significant changes in my own personal life and am starting to follow a step by step program to help me guide me through this. Part of succeeding in that is to not avoid conflict anymore, which is why I am reaching out to try to solve these issues and not let them continue to drag my life down. I have no control over whether or not any of the progress I make improves my relationship with (my wife) or anybody else, so I hope you will listen to what I am saying and understand where I am coming from when I ask you to just please stop this nonsense.
> 
> I know you and (his wife) are good people and I do not want to lose any more relationships in my life anymore, no matter how close or distant people may be from me, so I ask that you consider everything in this matter hopefully make amends to the situation. If you do not wish to do so, I will understand and wish the best for you and your family in the future."
> 
> He then responded:
> 
> "I miss you, buddy. Actually, it's no miscommunication on your behalf.
> 
> Personally, I grew to call you a great friend, and always hoped to have your best interest at heart. My biggest problem, and why I even unfriended (my wife), was her past posts which are written as if to publicly dehumanize, demean and bash you. Regardless of sarcasm, or exaggeration, it doesn't read that way, and I've always been offended by it. In-fact, (his wife) and I often talk about how ill she speaks of your relationship and both of us get defensive for you, and how much she offends both of us with it.
> 
> My post was written from a "straw that breaks the camel's back" mentality, where I've been fed up with the negative and incessant posts that she continues to put on (his wife's) wall.
> 
> I hope it's not viewed as a poor reflection on our friendship, but how I wish she publicly treated you better - even just rhetorically."
> 
> I then responded:
> 
> "I really appreciate the honesty and forthright to be open about this. Yes, I understand what you mean about what is seen on the internet, I am sure it’s so easy to have things misconstrued when you do not want to go into long winded writings on these sites and I know (my wife) can be quite blunt about things as it is. Life has been very tough recently and she doesn’t have many people to directly turn to and vent her frustrations.
> 
> As I said, I am going to start working harder on making myself happy again with my life, so I can only hope that the positive energy will roll off onto to her and we all won’t have to see such a negative tone in her writing and communication.
> 
> Regardless of whether you and (my wife) want to try to work out this quarrel on your own, I am not going to hold any long term ill will to both you and (his wife) and I hope we can use this as a way to build upon our friendship down the road.
> 
> Thanks again for being there for me and I hope to speak with you sometime in the near future."
> 
> 
> 
> I decided to not say anything to my wife about this email exchange, mainly because I did not want to her know I spoke of the changes I was going to make.
> 
> Then this evening, she called me and started asking questions about this email exchange because my friend's wife emailed my wife saying she did want any part in it all and just wanted to try to say friends.
> 
> My wife started confronting me about everything I said. At first I backed away and tried to dodge it all, but then I thought of the NMMNG approach to it. I explicitly explained to her that I wanted to directly contact on my own, without her help and try to take matter into my own hands. I spoke that I was tired of losing all the friends we had had in our lives and wanted to get him to try to work things out with her. I then said, I don't have any control in whether or not he would, but I was going to at least going to make an effort and try to defend her instead of looking like a coward to the whole situation.
> 
> She completely looked all past that and just started spouting how distrustful I was being and that I didn't communicate with her about this at all. She then started going through her posts to show how little she talks about me in her daily life and posed whether I believed her and not him.
> 
> I said, yes I believe you, which is why I confronted him in the first place because it made no sense to me."
> 
> Long story short, she felt betrayed and hurt that I was trying to save a friendship rather than be more harsh and critical to him.
> 
> I have no idea why he would lie to me about this. He doesn't even have a motivation because they live much too far to even see on occasion. I know he is a strong personality and probably can be a little abrasive, but his words speak for themself.
> 
> So, I failed this test badly, didn't I? What should I have done differently? I am really sorry if this long winded but I wanted to try to get feedback from anybody and try to be as clear as possible about it all.



Talk less. Act more.

By the tenor of what you posted and the exchanges, it sounds like you wanted to fix things ... for everyone. Not your job. But, it is certainly classic NG behavior. 

You don't have a FB account. 

Your wife shows you a post that she doesn't like, surrounding how she has treated you poorly in the past, and from the posters perspective, continues to ... and basically calls your manhood into question, to get you to 'defend' her.

Best advice I can give you? Get comfortable with being uncomfortable. You need to step outside of how you would normally handle things or interact. I'm not saying be someone you're not, but unless you are supremely comfortable, confident, and happy with how you conduct yourself and the outcomes you get; then you are going to need to 'adjust' how you react and respond.

Take your friend for instance ... he obviously felt strongly enough about the nature of YOUR relationship to say something to your wife. He didn't care what the fallout was. Right, or wrong, he said what was on his mind. Fallout be damned. Deal with the consequences as they come.

I'm guessing that in general, you calculate ALL of the impact and consequences before opening your mouth.


This was a non-issue.

She shows you the post. Your response;
"Wow. Interesting perspective. Ask your friend (the wife) to remove the post if it makes you uncomfortable. I'll have a chat with him.

And thats it.

If she then deflects her anger to you, you could in turn deflect back, use humor, or simply shut the exchange down.

Or you could ask her to talk about why it hurts her so much.

When it comes down to it ... your friend was basically saying your wife treats you like a doormat. And lets be honest, YOU already know whether that is true or not.

And for the record, this didn't start out as a fitness test, but became one, because she didn't trust that you would, or could handle it to HER satisfaction. And that was the wrong premise to begin with.


----------



## Lyris

FormerNiceGuy said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> :scratchhead:
> :lol:
> :rofl:
> 
> From Wikipedia: "Masculinity is possessing qualities or characteristics considered typical of or appropriate to a man."
> 
> "An oxymoron (plural oxymorons or oxymora) (from Greek ὀξύμωρον, "sharp dull") is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms."


Oh well, if wikipedia says it, it must be right. You know wikipedia is not an actual reliable source of reference, don't you?

Anyway, gay men have characteristics typical of or appropriate to [men]. Because they *are* men. Some women have masculine characteristics, in fact.

But go ahead. Emoticon me back into my place. 

Thanks for the oxymoron definition, by the way. I always thought it meant someone was as dumb as an ox. Oh wait...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FormerNiceGuy

Lyris said:


> Oh well, if wikipedia says it, it must be right. You know wikipedia is not an actual reliable source of reference, don't you?


Did you read that in The New York Times?

NYT article on medical text book that plagarized Wikipedia

:rofl::lol:


----------



## njpca

Well, I have been manhandled with the fitness tests so far these past couple days and it has seemed to create some deep anxiety for my wife and has pushed her away to whole thing:

Ok, so Saturday woke and went running for the first time in whatever. Wife had been staying at her Dad's to finish all the laundry. Went over and we all went to the baseball game in the evening. On the way home, the plan was to drop me off for the night and then I would pick her and the children up on Sunday to come back to the house and we would barbecue and run errands. 

I then asked "what time do you want to be there", and she just said "as early as possible." I then said, so you don't have a specific time." She then replied "As early as possible." So I got home and then decided that I would get up around 8am, go do my running again, then get ready and leave close to 10am.

So I follow my plan in the morning on Sunday, I called her at 9:45 to check to make sure there was nothing I had to bring over. She called a little after 10am and said no, so then I went over to pick her up.

I arrived and she had not finished showering, so I immediately checked to see if there was anything I could pile in the car, which I did. By the time she was finished showering and ready to go, it was about 11 and she said she was starving. 

We had to go to the phone store, so we stopped at Subway so she could sit and eat lunch. Then to the store only to find out we would have to come back later to pick up the phones.

Then we went to the grocery store so she could get stuff to make a meal for her dad on Father's Day. Also she promised him to record some program on TV at 1:00pm, so after the store we had to go pick up DVD-R's and then rush back home.

By the time we got home, she was in a pissy mood. Apparently she wanted me to be there at her Dad's much earlier because she had gotten up at 7:30am to finish the laundry and to take care of the child. She didn't have a chance to get into the shower because of that and it put us behind for the whole day. It was 1:00pm and we had basically missed the taping of the show. I said I could find it online and download a copy for him, which I did. 

Also, I was supposed to have leftovers when I got home from work on Friday night. I didn't really want the ones we had, so I made a sandwich and soup for the evening. When we got home, my wife saw that I had not eaten the leftovers and got angry and threw out the leftovers because she said they were bad. I stated to her, if you had let me known they were going to be thrown out, I probably would have eaten them.

She then started getting upset over how I took my time and doing my own thing while she had to take care of everything else. I specifically stated that I asked her what time to be there and she just retorted that I should have been aware of things that had to be done and known to get there early enough to help out to finish the laundry.

Then she made some kind of comment that she thinks we should plan to separate after this week. I calmly told her this is all nonsense and that there is no reason to get so upset. We got everything done and all we have to do is put away the laundry and make the food for dinner. I asked if I could help her with the food and she said no, so I said I would start putting away all the clothes.

It seemed she felt okay by then, so she started preparing dinner. By the evening, her dad came over and I barbecued the prepped food while she finished the rest of the food. My wife had made muffins to have with dinner (packaged, not homemade). I said I didn't want one, to which she insisted that I did. She started making remarks over how much I don't like her plans for dinner because I didn't take muffin. I brushed it off, knowing that was just a sarcastic joke to her to get me to get upset over nothing.

Then later in the evening after her Dad had left, we were watching TV and she started to write one of her blogs. I then decided to turn on a movie. As I started it, she said, "Oh, so you aren't going to let me know what to watch." I said, "I'm sorry I thought you were writing your blog, did you have something in mind?" She then just said, whatever and I turned it on. She then asked if I could turn it down a little, which I did. After about ten minutes, she stormed out of the living room and slammed the door. I ignored it and went onto watching the movie. 

Five minutes after that, she came out making remarks how she was going to be hunched over uncomfortably writing on the bed while I watched my loud movie and how I didn't respond to her walking away to check if anything was wrong. I started stating that I did lower the volume and that I would have lowered it more if she had said something. She then started talking about how I should be more attentive and knowing of her needs. I said I want us to communicate better and be clear about things. Then she started saying how much she didn't like these drastic changes I was making and that she was having hard time dealing with it on top of the all stress she feels is in our relationship.

Basically we then talked for several hours over all the problems we have been dealing with. She doesn't seem to be able to trust me anymore and by the time the evening was over, I asked if she could try to feel better about things and just move on so we can make our lives better. Unfortunately, she didn't have any clear answers and she didn't know if she wanted to stay or leave.

Monday, it just didn't get better. I wanted to try to fit my run in again and so I was trying to talk to her about the day's plans and she just couldn't handle me wanting to do my own thing while I was on vacation. She started getting upset over the fact that I was being too positive in myself and not caring about her needs. It got the worst when I went to get my haircut and decided to leave it a little long. By the time we got home, she had felt sick and asked that I take her back to her Dad's.

So here I am now, on vacation and dealing again with all of these issues. I keep wondering if I took the NMMNG approach to far, but I have tried so hard this weekend to be aware of her and to make her feel good about things. Basically, she just feels so untrustful of me and doesn't think that I will ever come to terms with loving her and agreeing to make things work and make her happy again. 

What the hell am I doing wrong?


----------



## njpca

Well, she just wrote a long email to me, so I will post it here to see if there is any insight people can offer for what's happened. It's unabridged so that you can all see her side and how she feels.

Also, if there is any misunderstanding of what she's talking about, you can ask me or search my other threads to see what I have been dealing with:


"I just want to be clear with you about a few things:

I am not trying to go over and over again in circles over everything that has happened in the last few years. I am not trying to punish anyone for anything that has happened either. I am, however, saying that what has happened in the last few years is what is making things so difficult for me to just accept and move on now - especially when you appear to have come of this idea completely out of nowhere.

I also am reacting to the fact that you have taken this "I am better than this" "I am moving on past this" "Don't lower me to this" stance before. I know that a lot of your jumpiness, shaking your legs, tapping your hands everywhere, constantly playing music, inability to settle down and just relax is about just cycling back into the "distanced and neglectful (me)" way of dealing with things. I'm not suggesting that having a positive attitude is bad. I'm suggesting that you are taking it too far and have done so far too drastically.

I also believe that you are missing a very big point: regardless of whether something is "practical" or not, being in love never will be. If you are really in love with me, practicality should not be an issue and should not come between you having what you love the most.

Suggesting that I move to Chicago with the girls and get a job until you get a job out there is just as unrealistic as suggesting that we just pack everything up and leave here. So is suggesting that I go back to school.

In the event of me just going to Chicago, you are not considering (1) how we would afford the costs of living of two separate households (2) who would care for the girls while I work full time ... (yes, I would have more family around to help, but they are not going to do that full time) and (3) how we would do such a thing when our relationship is on such shaky foundation as is. Long distance working things out like that is hard for even the most solid of couples.

In the event that I just applied to graduate programs elsewhere, we would be confronted with many of the same issues. Beyond that, though, would be how to pay for graduate school, which would have some to do with loans. I also have no interest in going back to school. Honestly, I have spent a long time coming to terms with the fact that my intellectual life in academia was over and I am over that. I don't have any interest in that now, especially after two years have passed with me being "out."

Suggesting that I get a job here is just as stupid as suggesting that you work two jobs. There is no one who can care for the girls full time, and it also does not deal with the huge thing glaring us in the face: I did not work for 10 years to get to where I did just to wind up working in something I am not interested in a few years later. I worked that hard so that I DIDN'T have to work in something I was uninterested - retail pharmacy and politics (at the time). This will not resolve the happiness problem. And quite frankly it is just unfair. 

Yes, many of the ways that I let my stress impact me personally are my own issues. That I would let myself be so stressed out that I would make myself sick to my stomach is just stupid. You are right, I sit there and just overthink everything and overthing it more and then think it over again. But that all of this is stressing me out - that very fact - is definitely a result of your actions.

In a normal relationship, there would be no lying, no secrets, no "I'm moving on and doing my own thing" ... there would be us. Haven't you ever heard the old saying "I don't care what I have as long as I have you"? I feel like you have never adopted that feeling. This is my point when I say that you would not just pack up and follow me. Of course I am not just going to pack up and drive away - I have no idea how that would even work. But I feel like doing it most days now and that I feel that way is a sign of just how enormous all of this nonsense is at this point. I feel that you are not in love with me. Maybe you love me or you feel some obligation towards me finally, but at a certain point you have basically thrown up your hands and said "I don't want to deal with it" or "I'm not going to let it affect me." It is actually a little insulting to me when you say you don't want to have a multiple hour conversation with me about fixing us; or when the whole time we are talking you look like you are on the verge of just walking out of the room. I'm not saying we should just keep going in circles; I'm saying you shouldn't be trying to run away from them or perhaps run away from me.

When I say I need a show of faith at this point to know that I can trust you, I'm saying that this has to predate any resolutions to all life's problems. When I say I don't want to have to tell you it's because you should have some active participation in building back the trust. Our foundation is completely broken and before we even get muddied down in anything like "fix this" or "fix that" we have to have that trust. Sadly, I get muddied in those things myself because I continue to believe that only fixing things will restore the trust; but the trust has to be there to fix things. This is where I talk in circles or reason in circles; and this really is why I feel so much stress - because we're damned if we do, damned if we don't in my mind. 

Also my stress stems from knowing what you said to me when I returned home, and have reiterated over and over again in different ways: you don't give a **** if our marriage comes to an end. Maybe you care a little, but you tell yourself you'll get over it. You'll **** around on your phone, go for runs all day if you have to, lose yourself in the news on your computer and anything else you have to do to distract yourself from what has happened. If for five minutes you just stopped moving - stopped with the email, the phone, the texting, the TV, the movies, the running, the "getting things done" and were actually just present - present where you weren't there but still trying to rush the conversation or rush off to do something else or telling everyone what you want to "get in" before the end of the day, I think maybe everything would calm down a little and we could deal with this. Sadly, you seem to be back to trying to be "away" as much as possible so that you don't have to confront the issues. Is that your way of not having to admit again that you don't give a **** if our marriage ends? Or is that your way of dealing with someone you aren't really in love with? 

Above all, if at some point you said that you would say **** IT to everything and just pack up and drive away - with no idea where we were going, but as long as we were together - I would probably calm down a huge notch. But you can't say that because you wouldn't do it. Like you said when I got home - as long as it is practical or doesn't come in the way with what is most important, what you love most - you.

I guess we are just going to sleep here tonight and come home tomorrow morning. Hope you've been able to get in all the runs, the emails, the texting, the movies, the TV shows, and every other distraction you can by then."


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> After about ten minutes, she stormed out of the living room and slammed the door. I ignored it and went onto watching the movie.
> 
> Five minutes after that, she came out making remarks how she was going to be hunched over uncomfortably writing on the bed while I watched my loud movie and *how I didn't respond to her walking away to check *if anything was wrong.


And here, my friend, is the key to your dysfunctional marriage. She has a severe need to be stroked, to be told she rocks your world, and that you would jump hoops for her. She went into her room JUST SO you could follow her and stroke her ego. 

Anything short of that - day in day out - is just not good enough for her supersized lack of self esteem.

And add that to her mismatched, 6-year-old methods for getting what she wants, well, she has a LOT of personal work to do before she could ever be a good healthy wife.


----------



## Screenp2

I'm on my 2nd read, this time doing the exercises on paper and taking more time on them. 

My story started back in December when I unloaded on my wife about how unhappy I was and how she wasn't doing enough to meet my 'wants and needs' in bed or life. 

I joined, told my story, built a fantasy about why she didn't want to sex me up.. all that fun stuff nice guys go through until then blow a seal one day and hurt the one they love the most. 

Forward to three weeks ago when my depression hit a personal bottom. I hurt her really good this time and decided that's enough. This **** has to stop now! You have put her through enough, fix YOU! 

The next morning she tagged me in a facebook quote picture, the first time she has ever made any light of our matter in any public sense. 

It was a reminder of what she told me all those months ago in the car that day... fine, just work on you and it'll all work out. 

I ordered the NMMRNG that morning, got her kindle and bought a codependency book and started reading. I felt my entire life's paradigm shatter in the first 50 pages. By the time I hit page 100 I was already into the new me mode. I could feel the change almost immediately. 

When NMMRNG showed up.. I made a comment to my wife about a new book and a new me was on the way. That guy who hurt you the other night, he's gone now. Told her it was time for me to change. From that moment I shed my nice guy armor (it's still in the closet and will be thrown out after I confront my father for he was the craftsman and I want him to see what it's done to my life) and stood like a man. A man who wanted to be more dominant and assertive in his life to get more of what he wanted. 

That night I cooked a nice meal, put the kids down early and entered my wife's space.. our bedroom. Took the kindle from her hands and with no foreplay, a little spit to get things going I Man handled her to 3 powerful orgasms in numerous male dominant positions before I sprayed her front side with the most glorious pearl necklace she's ever gotten. I didn't care if she was into it or not, didn't care if she just laid there, all I cared about was doing what made ME feel good. 

I took back my sexual power that night and made it clear to her, If I want to have sex with you, I will. I will never ask again, I will inform you before hand of my desire or I will just take you when I see fit. All you have to do is cum, and that's up to you. 

From that night our sex life has gone from every few weeks/months to every couple of days. My sexual anxiety is gone, I last much longer and are having the sex I want to have. 

The other night she dropped some in-bed hints that for a second I had to remember what she was doing.. oh yeah! that's her signal for the playing field is open, cum in! Then I found the kitty had been to the cleaners for a brazillian and that made my inner lion come out to play. It was 90 minutes of some of the most passionate sex we've had in years. It took her a few hours to wind down and get to sleep after that. The next day she told me she was mad at me for keeping her up late.. I walked up to her and put my hand on the back of her neck and pulled her towards me, gave her a hard kiss and said it was worth it though right.. as I gave her a slight push/let go away from me. The look in her eyes as she bit the corner of her lower lip told me she can't wait till next time.

The book, and other self help books, are working for me and I'm not telling her what I'm doing unless she asks me. She's asked a few questions and has noticed a change and currently likes it. When asked how she likes the change and what the path could possibly lead to, she's undecided yet and I'm OK with that.


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> *She doesn't seem to be able to trust me anymore* and by the time the evening was over, *I asked if she could try to feel better* about things and just move on *so we can make our lives better*. Unfortunately, she didn't have any clear answers and *she didn't know if she wanted to stay or leave*.


Here's what you did wrong. She said the standard spouse of Nice Guy speech - "I don't think I can trust you." Meaneater-speak for "What are you going to give me to make it worth my time to grace you with my presence?" Nice Guy says "Can you try to feel better about things?" - meaning what can I do to get you to choose me? NON-Nice Guy says "Well, that's up to you; I can't make you feel anything. All I can do is tell you what I would like to see and then wait and see if we share the same vision. You let me know, ok?"


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> It got the worst when I went to get my haircut and decided to leave it a little long. By the time we got home, she had felt sick and asked that I take her back to her Dad's.


You realize, right, that 'take me home' is STANDARD spouse of Nice Guy for "you stopped stroking my ego so I'm going to punish you by removing myself from your presence"?

How do you deal with 'take me home'?

By refusing to play the game.

Oh, ok, hon, sorry you feel bad. I'll drop you off and then meet up with Joe and Dave while you sleep.

See the difference?


----------



## njpca

Turnera,

I don't know if there is anything else I will be able to do about it at this point. The moment I started pushing back, it's got her to feel completely defenseless again that she literally started to shut down completely again.

I have found out a couple more things about her past these last several months and I have tried so hard to be understanding, but I feel also that it gives the validity to feel like she is needed and she just uses those things against me to wear me down.

Her therapist is just not going to be helping anymore. Every time, he says she just has to pack up and leave but she has no strength or will to do anything for herself.


----------



## njpca

Do you think I should do a 180 and not contact her now at this point until she reaches out to me?

She posed to me before I dropped her off that she wanted answer from me on how I could build her trust back and work on things. She wanted me to call her back tomorrow morning after I had done some thinking.

I feel like I'm being punished and force to stand in the corner and think about what I've done to turn around and make things right


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> So here I am now, on vacation and dealing again with all of these issues. I keep *wondering if I took the NMMNG approach to far*, but I have *tried so hard this weekend to be aware of her and to make her feel good* about things.


I take it back. There's MORE you did wrong*. *In fact, you don't even seem to understand what NMMNG means. It means that, when she gives you the sh*t tests, YOU DON'T PLAY THE GAME.

NMMNG means she can play all her little games she wants, but you have too much dignity to kiss up to her. Will she be mad? Of course. Until she realizes she can't whip you back in shape. But you won't care because you will no longer be a Nice Guy.


----------



## njpca

turnera said:


> NON-Nice Guy says "Well, that's up to you; I can't make you feel anything. All I can do is tell you what I would like to see and then wait and see if we share the same vision. You let me know, ok?"


Actually, I am pretty sure I communicated almost exactly those words during our arguement last night. Translation to her: "I don't love her anymore and not willing anything to fight for it."


----------



## Thor

Nj, you are doing it right. Her reaction is as expected. Her email is over the top. Are you on the NMMNG forum?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Screenp2

turnera said:


> You realize, right, that 'take me home' is STANDARD spouse of Nice Guy for "you stopped stroking my ego so I'm going to punish you by removing myself from your presence"?
> 
> How do you deal with 'take me home'?
> 
> By refusing to play the game.
> 
> Oh, ok, hon, sorry you feel bad. I'll drop you off and then meet up with Joe and Dave while you sleep.
> 
> See the difference?


It would seem that this wife has more problems then our recovering nice guy. Stand your ground bro, stand your ground and don't play her game.


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## turnera

njp, all I can after reading her email is...what a *****. I'm sorry, I know you love her, but what a *****. She apparently is SO used to having the world revolve around her that when you stop, she pulls out the Change Back! behavior IN SPADES.

I could tear her letter apart in pieces, but suffice it to say she will likely NEVER ever really feel for you; it will only be in terms of what you can do for HER.

And please notice all the references she made to how love should just 'be'; you shouldn't have to work on it; if you won't follow me, you don't really love me...Do you see how it's all about feelings? Not hard work or being introspective or admitting your own faults? By saying that you only believe in true love lets you off the hook for owning your own behavior: if you really loved me, you wouldn't ever call me out on my behavior. Very freeing, actually. In a narcissistic kind of way.


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## Tigerman

Just because it's not making things better with your W doesn't mean you're not doing it right. If things are unfixable, she won't respond well to your move away from being a NG. Even if there's hope for you two, it might take a lot of time and effort on her part to deal with things in a healthy way. The only way you're going to find out whether there's anything left to your relationship is to stay on the path of fixing your end of things. Keep up the good work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

njpca said:


> The *moment I started pushing back*, it's got her to feel completely defenseless again that *she literally started to shut down completely again*.


Of course she did. You stopped stroking her ego. She doesn't WANT you to stop being a Nice Guy. You WANT her to shut down, dude! You need to go back and reread the book.



njpca said:


> I have found out a couple more things about her past these last several months and *I have tried so hard to be understanding*


Why? You are supposed to doing this workshop on YOU, ok? Forget what she does for now. This is about YOU. You need to know what NMMNG means, learn it, live it, love it.

Until you can stop making everything all about her - NEEDING her to want you - you will never progress.


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## turnera

njpca said:


> She posed to me before I dropped her off that she wanted answer from me on how I could build her trust back


:rofl:
Did you laugh her out of the car?

That's what a Non-Nice Guy would do. Isn't that what you're working toward?

Stop kissing up to her!


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> Actually, I am pretty sure I communicated almost exactly those words during our arguement last night. Translation to her: "I don't love her anymore and not willing anything to fight for it."


Too bad so sad.

Just one more sh*t test.

_Don't play the game._


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## turnera

njp, have you read The Dance Of Anger yet? It's a quick read, but it's a great voice on how people are going to act when you start changing yourself. The people WANT you to be the same ol same ol, that's what they're used to, so they're gonna defend their turf. Expect it, and ignore it.


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## OhGeesh

Do I hate these threads!! To the OP stop playing mind games and all of the Mr.Nice Guy bull crap because that is what it is!!

"You replied incorrectly here see she was fit testing you......Ahhhh see what you did hear was cater to her need to be blah blah blah"

It's all psycho babble bull crap imo. I text my wife 4-10 times a day, we talk 5-6 times a day, we are inseperable, our lives are ecah other, she is on a freaking pedastal each and everyday, her happiness is my happiness, and until recently our sex life was off the charts good!! It's always been like this I am 100% a nice guy meaning if she is happy I am happy. My wife always says how lucky she is to have me, to have someone who puts "Her and the kids" above himself, because that is what I do each and everyday!! 

Maybe just maybe you and wife do need to seperate!! IMO, it's as simple as having a few heart to heart life talks and if you guys can't find common ground quickly, truly enjoy each others company, well screw it!! Why walk on egg shells and play stupid mind games for the sake of a wedding vow when you are clearly miserable? The stories you are sharing I'm telling you now after a month of that I would strongly be considering seperating or talking with her about divorce if progress wasn't made and made quickly.

**I'm not saying you can't focus on you workout, eat healthy, get a hobby, whatever, but your wife and kids being your life always first and foremost that's exactly how I want it to be!!!**

Best of luck!! Nice guy for life right here


----------



## Conrad

If everyone had a woman of the quality you have, there would be none of these threads.


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## turnera

Exactly.

And why is the sex falling off now?


----------



## OhGeesh

Doesn't make it any less than a bunch of mind games spin it however you want. There is nothing wrong with improving yourself through many different avenues, but purposely withholding in a attempt to get a desired response is playing games.

@Turnera it's me not her.......we are still intimate weekly every 5-7 days depending on work. Just that "I want to bang your brains out" urge has decreased a bit.

I attribute it too work, getting older, and that we have been together 20 years and have been "spicing it up" for over a decade........sometimes I feel like there isn't alot more to do that I haven't done, so it has waned on the desire a tad. I am looking forward to our trip in July and this tom. night though (date night !!)


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## njpca

Update:

She did come back tonight, but only to get her stuff. Of course, though she had to sit down speak about the situation and drag it into another 2.5 hour convo. It was very tough to stay very firm and not even sure I did everything the way I should have.

She tried to explain that when she gets stressed about stuff, she has to leave like she did and calm down so she can deal with it. I explained to her that it does no good to just react like that and she needs to try to find a method to deal with it without having to walk away.

Then she started accusing of assigning how she has to deal with things on my terms and such. She reiterated again that I should have been more responsive after she walked out the night before and checked in to see if she was okay.

The really hard part is knowing when you have gone too far and becoming just a straight ***hole to someone, because she clearly said I was acting and being that way. Also, I feel like I have to get so detached emotionally to the situation otherwise I feel like I walk into feeling so horrible about everything.

She walked away after it all, and I am not going to lie, I am very scared where this all going to lead now. I'm just really trying to stay focused in knowing that I don't have control in the situation, regardless of how it plays out.

Thank you all for commenting and offering realistic opinions to the best that you can provide. I'll check out these other forums and books and hopefully build upon everything I am learning from the NMMNG way of living


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## AFEH

Njpca, the single biggest thing that comes out to me is how you so readily dismiss other people’s feelings. You actually dismiss their emotions as though they are nothing and have absolutely no value for you. You rubbish them, throw them on the floor as though they are nothing.

You do that to a person’s feelings and you do it to the person they are. In many ways how and what we feel about things is the very essence of who we are as a person!

Look, here’s an example “_I calmly told her this is all nonsense and that there is no reason to get so upset_”.

That is an absolutely terrible thing to say!!! It is a horrendous thing to say to any human being let alone the woman you love! Saying things like that will either send someone into a blind rage or they will totally and absolutely withdraw from you!

Telling someone you care not for their feelings is to me an exceedingly wounding and an exceptionally aggressive thing to do!

Look. You create the world in which you live. You are the creator of your world. Nobody else is. But you have not a clue about how you create your world. You are so ego centric that you cannot see cause and effect.

If you want to get out of your ego centric ways and grow as a man, then read Awareness by Anthony de Mello. He will teach you to see your cause, your effect and your affect on yourself and those around you, most especially those you love and those who love you.

It really is time to wake up to your self!


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## njpca

AFEH, I thought the whole point of NMMNG is you have to be dismissive to those remarks and brush them off. From what I am trying to grasp, isn't that just a push back response to my changes and she trying to use an empty threat to put me in my place to react and and create fear in the relationship?


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## AFEH

njpca said:


> AFEH, I thought the whole point of NMMNG is you have to be dismissive to those remarks and brush them off. From what I am trying to grasp, isn't that just a push back response to my changes and she trying to use an empty threat to put me in my place to react and and create fear in the relationship?


If you had been so dismissive of my feelings, I’d have told you to feck-off! Seriously. You would not have got another chance with me.

Dismissing my feelings is a boundary crossed once with me and never ever again! You simply would not get another chance as you’d be persona non grata! Literally unwelcome in my world and forcibly evicted!

People’s feelings, emotions are a major part of who they are. It is most certainly the part of them that makes them unique! If you think part of NMMNG consists of summarily dismissing your wife then you are very wrong!

You have to listen to your wife! Goodness man she is still talking to you. Even in that email SHE IS TALKING TO YOU! Do you really want the opposite of that? She cannot get through to you and when she tries YOU SUMMARILY DISMISS HER!


Of course you listen to your wife! But you don’t let her right inside of you to where it hurts, in your heart and soul. You keep her on the outside of you and you do that with boundaries. Read that Awareness by Anthony de Mello and learn about and identify your N.U.T.s.


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## turnera

OhGeesh said:


> Doesn't make it any less than a bunch of mind games spin it however you want. There is nothing wrong with improving yourself through many different avenues, but purposely withholding in a attempt to get a desired response is playing games.
> 
> @Turnera it's me not her.......we are still intimate weekly every 5-7 days depending on work. Just that "I want to bang your brains out" urge has decreased a bit.
> 
> I attribute it too work, getting older, and that we have been together 20 years and have been "spicing it up" for over a decade........sometimes I feel like there isn't alot more to do that I haven't done, so it has waned on the desire a tad. I am looking forward to our trip in July and this tom. night though (date night !!)


 Have you tried this book? I'll bet you haven't done everything in it! Amazon.com: 52 Invitations to Grrreat Sex (9780962962899): Laura Corn: Books

As for NMMNG, you may see it as gimmicks, but what it really is is a mindset. We're not telling him do this to get that. We're telling him 'respect yourself enough to realize that you don't have to kiss her feet just to get her to stay with you; in fact, if you DON'T kiss her feet, she will respect you more and WANT to stay with you. Doormat breeds discontent. Do this to save your marriage and make BOTH of you happy.'


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## turnera

njpca said:


> AFEH, I thought the whole point of NMMNG is you have to be dismissive to those remarks and brush them off. From what I am trying to grasp, isn't that just a push back response to my changes and she trying to use an empty threat to put me in my place to react and and create fear in the relationship?


 You're still not getting it. A NG has no respect for himself, fears he'll lose his wife because SHE will see he's not worth keeping, so he kisses her butt to keep her from leaving.

A NMMNG owns his own self worth, yet still loves his wife and wants to make her happy - just not in an unhealthy kiss-up way. You're still seeing this as a bunch of 'steps' or 'acts.' Go back and reread the book. It's not about that. It's about your self awareness and self worth. It's about maintaining your dignity so that when your wife runs a sh*t test, you can calmly - yet lovingly - say 'hon, that won't work for me.' And then you work out something that works for both of you.


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## Thor

njpca said:


> She did come back tonight, but only to get her stuff. Of course, though she had to sit down speak about the situation and drag it into another 2.5 hour convo. It was very tough to stay very firm and not even sure I did everything the way I should have.


The 2.5 hr talk is a fail. There is nothing which cannot be discussed completely within 30 to 60 minutes. She is trying to manipulate you, and the long conversation is part of that. Set a time limit up front, or if things start spiraling downward and dragging out then just tell her it has ceased to be a productive conversation and you need to call a stop to the conversation for today.

Do read "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" for some good conversation techniques. The Broken Record is one which is helpful, as is Fogging. So are STFU, and Don't Take the Bait. 




njpca said:


> She tried to explain that when she gets stressed about stuff, she has to leave like she did and calm down so she can deal with it. I explained to her that it does no good to just react like that and she needs to try to find a method to deal with it without having to walk away.


Hmm, maybe ok. Boundaries are much better than trying to control the other person. Sometimes it is a difference without a distinction, in that you are trying to change the other person's behavior. But at the very least you can present it in a productive way. It may have been better to use a "When you ____, I feel ____" statement. What you wrote comes across as "I want you to not do ABC. You have to do XYZ". That is an attempt at controlling her. Instead you should be telling her that her behavior is not acceptable to you because it is not productive to resolving the problem. Or it is not acceptable to you because she is treating you like a child.

So the difference is that you should be using boundaries with her. She has every right to stomp off like she did. But you don't have to accept such behavior. If she continues to do it then you have a choice to enact a consequence. If she stomps off you will perhaps not discuss the event until she has been home for at least 12 hours to cool off. Or some other consequence. You'll toss her stuff on the lawn so she can move out permanently. Whatever level of consequence you think is adequate to protect your boundary.




njpca said:


> The really hard part is knowing when you have gone too far and becoming just a straight ***hole to someone, because she clearly said I was acting and being that way. Also, I feel like I have to get so detached emotionally to the situation otherwise I feel like I walk into feeling so horrible about everything.


You are too concerned about how she feels about what you do or say. You worry about if she thinks you are being an ass. IOW, your feelings are being controlled by her.

Try visualizing an Integrated Male and how he would act. How would John Wayne handle a situation? Or James Bond or any other confident masculine male? If you have a friend or relative who is IM, how would he handle it? You can be loving yet still have strong boundaries and be confident.



njpca said:


> She walked away after it all, and I am not going to lie, I am very scared where this all going to lead now. I'm just really trying to stay focused in knowing that I don't have control in the situation, regardless of how it plays out.


Detachment from outcome is what you are striving for. The fear of the unknown is normal. What you should be looking for is getting comfortable with knowing you are ok yourself. You can handle whatever comes your way. If you are true to yourself and if you act with integrity, you will get to the best possible outcome for the situation. Even though much is beyond your control, you can lead things to an outcome which best matches your needs and desires. If she divorces you, it will be the best possible outcome _given the reality of the circumstances_ even if it is not the ideal outcome.


----------



## Drover

OhGeesh said:


> Do I hate these threads!! To the OP stop playing mind games and all of the Mr.Nice Guy bull crap because that is what it is!!


It's exactly the opposite. It's a way to stop playing games, both your games and her games, and instead just be a better man.


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## turnera

Geesh, have you even read the book?


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## AFEH

Only people who have a need will read such a book. Why else would anybody read and go through such processes unless they were driven by needs?

OhGeesh and his wife must play essentially healthy games and that’s why they are so happy together. If he wanted to take a look at some unhealthy to downright dysfunctional games some people play then he’s better reading Amazon.com: Games People Play: The Basic Handbook of Transactional Analysis. (9780345410030): Eric Berne: Books to educate himself.

Maybe if he were to do that then he’d be talking from a position of understanding rather than from his current position of ignorance and naivety. Although I do think those who make such sweeping derogatory and near mocking statements tempt fate at great risk! Lets hope down the line he doesn’t suddenly get the need to read the book after having an epiphany moment!


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## turnera

I didn't think he'd read it either. Which is my point. It makes you look pretty silly to make fun of something about which you are ignorant. Especially in a thread FOR men who ARE in need of something.


----------



## OhGeesh

Drover said:


> It's exactly the opposite. It's a way to stop playing games, both your games and her games, and instead just be a better man.


I'll disagree it's just a different type of game you are making the assumption that the "Nice Guy" is playing games too. I will agree many are, but you will never get me to believe not putting you family 100% first, seeing others better than yourself, being selfless, as a bad thing.

I'm a "people pleaser" by nature all I can say is there are genuine people where helping isn't a game, a ploy, or a game it's genuine. It is how I operate!! Now I don't go tell one person one thing and then cave and tell someone else something different all for the sake of making everyone happy, but I do try to meet people's needs. Firmly believe in Honey vs Vinegar even though my post here may not reflect that.

Granted maybe the reason it is hard to relate to is because my wife doesn't play games, she isn't this irrational emotionally driven basket case like some examples on here, so it's like you guys telling me that grass isn't green it's red.........it's hard to believe some women are like that. Or you would marry someone like that. There has been nothing that has not been able to be fixed in my marriage that a date night and 1-3hrs of talking, opening up, sharing feelings, sometimes crying didn't fix.

I have no qualms with working out, eating right, bettering yourself, standing up for what you believe is right. Again giving is better than receiving in my book so putting others before you, bending not breaking, treating your spouse like she is the best thing since sliced bread, etc etc are not NEGATIVE things.

I've only read pages of the book from bits and pieces online. Some of you put way too much credence on a person because someone has a book. Do me a favor look at the marriages of many so called "experts" Men are from Venus Men are from Mars divorced 3 times. A certain world reknowned sex therapist divorced 2 times. I'm not saying there isn't good information to be had I believe you "eat the chicken throw away the bones" take what applies to you, but just because it is in a book doesn't mean it's LAW or always right.


In the end just like there are many ways to lose weight there are many roads to a successful marriage. If NMMNG is working for the OP then kudos! I shouldn't critque him for following a plan that is working for him even if I don't agree with much of it.

I'll just stay out of NMMNG threads


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## njpca

Well after another hour long conversation this morning, I am starting to question now if this NMMNG method is going to work successfully in my situation.

Basically, what she was trying to say is that in order for me to address her emotional feelings, I need to be responsive in the ways that the she was acting.

I.E. I should have walked into the room to check to see if she was okay and I should have been more proactive in knowing that she needed help to get the laundry done in the morning and I should have been to her Dad's at an earlier time.

I tried to speak directly and say that I can meet her emotional needs but I won't tolerate those kind of actions, and all it was to her was a rejection of her feelings.

In the end, I said I needed to think about this all and we agreed to meet for dinner tonight to discuss anything further. I feel that this is kind now the turning point into making this work or not and am not sure how I should approach this.

AFEH has made some good points about dismissing the feelings and understand the words spoken can be lead that way, but at the same time I almost feel like at least in my case it will require me to lose the NMMNG approach.

Where do you think I should go now at this point and what should I try to say when we meet? I feel know that I have to accept whatever the outcome is if I approach it in NMMNG manner, but I know to her it will just look like I am being detached emotionally to her and that I am selfish and thinking for myself only. Maybe I just can't get over myself for her feeling that way and that is where my self confidence disappears.

Perhaps I am still doing something wrong in the NMMNG approach. I'll be spending the rest of the day rereading certain parts and taking a look at some of the excercises more thoroughly.


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## turnera

You should not offer her anything other than to validate her feelings. "I understand why you feel unloved by me not checking up on you. That must feel terrible."

"Then why didn't you?"

"Because I am learning about myself and finding out that I harmed our marriage by giving in on all of MY feelings, just so YOU would feel loved. I can't continue on that path, not and stay mentally healthy. So I am retraining my brain to love you but also to learn where I need to protect MY feelings, too. Me having to check on you to PROVE that I love you, is not a healthy way for either of us to handle our marriage. I can't continue to ignore my own needs, and you shouldn't continue to seek outside validation to cover up your lack of faith in yourself. So I can't continue to do it. If that's not enough for you, I will understand if you feel you can't stay married to me. But this is what I have to do."


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## turnera

njp, briefly, what do you think NMMNG means?


----------



## turnera

Also, as has been said, you need some work on communication; she is probably reacting to the WAY you talk to her.



njpca said:


> I tried to speak directly and say that I can meet her emotional needs *but I won't tolerate those kind of actions*, and all it was to her was a rejection of her feelings.


Now, see, this is you taking NMMNG too far, and thinking that it is a REACTION. It isn't. It is a way of life, an unwillingness to be someone else's footstool. All you did here was say "You're a bad child and I'm going to punish you, dammit!" Seriously, who says "I won't tolerate" to an adult? Maybe you need to look deeper into your relationship and see if you somehow morphed into her father figure at some point.



njpca said:


> In the end, I said I needed to think about this all


Finally! A good move! lol



njpca said:


> I feel now that I have to accept whatever the outcome is if I approach it in NMMNG manner, but I know *to her it will just look like I am being detached* emotionally to her and *that I am selfish and thinking for myself only*. Maybe I just can't get over myself for her feeling that way


Exactly. She has trained you (or you just accepted) to be HER SOURCE OF HAPPINESS. That never works. And the more you kiss up to get her to be happy, the more you turn into a doormat and the less attractive you become. 

Please remember that she is going to go through WITHDRAWAL as you learn to stop being a NG. The Dance Of Anger book calls this Change Back! behavior. She wants you to Change Back! into the person she used to make herself feel loved and worthy. That never works. (as you can see) SHE has to make herself feel loved and worthy. And as soon as you pull back and LET her be responsible for her own happiness, stop propping her up, she will either fall flat on her face or she'll learn to stand without the crutch (per my IC, lol). You stepping back is going to HELP her find happiness within herself. And it'll help you too, of course.

So remember that, just like an abuser, she is going to pull out ALL THE STOPS to guilt you into turning back into Wimpy Man. It's your job to be strong and not fall for it and keep reciting "I'm sorry you feel that way. I love you, but I can't continue to be your crutch for your own happiness. If that's not enough for you, I can understand."



njpca said:


> Basically, what she was trying to say is that* in order for me to address her emotional feelings*, *I need to be responsive* in the ways that the she was acting.


njp, tell me, please, why YOU are responsible for fixing what's wrong in your marriage? I haven't heard a SINGLE WORD from her that says she thinks that SHE is doing anything wrong. Have you not even told her that she harms you?



njpca said:


> I.E. I should have walked into the room to check to see if she was okay and I should have been more proactive in knowing that she needed help to get the laundry done in the morning and I should have been to her Dad's at an earlier time.


Bullcrap. That's just more of an entitled princess' expectations for how the serfs will treat her. You did NOT owe her anything of the sort. You don't NEED to be proactive because, as I see it, SHE is the main problem, not YOU. 

So why are YOU the one who is being expected to change?

Because you're too chicken to tell her that she harms you.


----------



## turnera

Remember that this is all new to her, too. Thus the hour-long conversations. She's just as scared as you are. Just keep reassuring her that you love her and want her to be happy, but it has to come from inside HER.


----------



## njpca

To me personally, it's about reclaiming the feelings that I have about things and actually speaking up about them rather than just going along with what others think is best or trying to convince me what is good for me.

To that extent, this is probably how I got myself in this situation in the first place. I wasn't communicative about my needs, eventually got pushed back because someone else felt differently about it, then told me I am supposed to feel that way too and just accepted that how it should be.

I have never been confident in my feelings and it will probably take a lot more work to even get to the point, but I have to try or I am going to be walked over for the rest of my life and find myself I am in a place that I don't want to be.


----------



## turnera

Sounds good. Now, how can you apply that to your wife? Think of a specific example where you swallowed your feelings and did what she wanted instead of what you wanted. Have that ready, so you can explain it to her tonight. Show her how that was unhealthy, and explain that you can't spend the rest of your life eating your own feelings, and that you NEED to take this step.

Expect her to bite back at you, she's still all about her, it will be hard for her to start caring about what YOU want. Let her, just don't react and don't say anything more than "I can see how you'd feel that way" or "I'm sorry you feel that way; but it's not MY truth."

Never admit what she wants you to admit - that you don't love her and just use her. If you do that, she will have you over the barrel again where she wants you. Just keep validating and explaining how YOU have to move forward. Reiterate that you hope she joins you on this self-awareness journey, but you'll understand if she won't. That will take away the power struggle currently going on.


----------



## njpca

turnera said:


> njp, tell me, please, why YOU are responsible for fixing what's wrong in your marriage? I haven't heard a SINGLE WORD from her that says she thinks that SHE is doing anything wrong. Have you not even told her that she harms you?


I believe that with everything that we have gone through, it has all come back to me being not reactive in certain situations and letting them just play out. Therefore, she doesn't feel she has to owe up to anything on her end and can be convinced that is all up to me. All of the problems end up stemming from me because of that.

If you followed all of my threads, you would see how I have let things get to this point and not address them so long ago.


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## turnera

Not exactly what I meant, but I'll roll with it. So...give that you understand that she is the way she is because you aided and abetted it, what's your next step? What do you think needs to happen now?


----------



## Thor

So when she went into the other room and you did not follow, how were you to know that she needed you to ask her what was wrong? Did she say to you something was wrong? Did she say she wanted to talk? Did she say she didn't like you watching the tv just before she walked out?

She has the emotional hosed hooked up to you. So when you disconnect the hose it is frightening to her.

Doc Glover states very accurately that the NG tends to pair up with a dysfunctional woman. This is in fact nothing unique to Nice Guys. All psychologists will tell you that people tend to pair up with a similar level of dysfunction, though the dysfunctions themselves may be very different and due to very different causes.

So your wife is likely quite dysfunctional. When you change from NG to "normal" it throws the relationship off balance. It also scares the crap out of her.

When she berates you for not following her into the other room to ask what was wrong, you can ask her how you were to know something was wrong if she didn't specifically tell you.

Part of NMMNG is clear, direct communications in both directions. It is not assuming what the other person means by their unspoken actions or even by their general words. If she needs something, it is her duty to specifically tell you. If she is upset she has to tell you directly. If she wants something done/fixed she has to specifically ask you to do it (and you choose whether to do it).

She wants you to be a mind reader and a caretaker.

Why is all of this about her? Why is it about her feelings and her needs? Why is it about how you failed her? Answer: Because you let her drive the ship in that direction.


----------



## njpca

turnera said:


> Not exactly what I meant, but I'll roll with it. So...give that you understand that she is the way she is because you aided and abetted it, what's your next step? What do you think needs to happen now?


Well, it seems obvious that I need to speak about these feelings that you are mentioning now, or else it's always going to be this rollercoaster ride for both of us. 

I know I need to stop being the emotional crux for her. I'm sure she is so damaged from everything in her life now and in the past, but I can only simply speak my feelings about myself and hope that she understands.


----------



## turnera

Right. I just worry because you seem SO tuned into her happiness, as though if she expresses displeasure, your first instinct is to just in and figure out how to make her happy again. 

Are you capable of just looking at her when she says 'you weren't there for me' and not asking how to make it up to her?


----------



## Drover

njpca said:


> To me personally, it's about reclaiming the feelings that I have about things and actually speaking up about them rather than just going along with what others think is best or trying to convince me what is good for me.
> 
> To that extent, this is probably how I got myself in this situation in the first place. I wasn't communicative about my needs, eventually got pushed back because someone else felt differently about it, then told me I am supposed to feel that way too and just accepted that how it should be.
> 
> I have never been confident in my feelings and it will probably take a lot more work to even get to the point, but I have to try or I am going to be walked over for the rest of my life and find myself I am in a place that I don't want to be.


The NUTs book says to Express but don't defend you feelings. I think that's right. First recognize the difference between a feeling and an emotion. A feeling is an emotion with insight. Just being angry is an emotion. Think about why you're angry first. Then express it. But it's YOUR feeling. She doesn't have to agree with it or like it. You have a right to it, just as she has a right to her feelings. There's nothing to be gained from trying to force people to agree with your feelings by arguing.


----------



## njpca

turnera said:


> Are you capable of just looking at her when she says 'you weren't there for me' and not asking how to make it up to her?


I believe I could do the looking part, but then she will require some sort of answer and then I can either be the NMMNG and maybe say something like: "Your feelings are warranted and valid, but I can't be there to solve all of your problems. I have my needs and feelings too.'"

Is that more along the lines of NMMNG response? Otherwise, she'll just keeping searching until I finally do say something like: "I do understand and will try to be more aware of your needs in the future"


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> I believe I could do the looking part, but then she will require some sort of answer and then I can either be the NMMNG and maybe say something like: "Your feelings are warranted and valid, but I can't be there to solve all of your problems. I have my needs and feelings too.'"


"Your feelings are warranted?"

Argh!

lol

Ok, pretend you're a girl. I know you guys do it, you can't deny. Pretend you're a girl and answer back with some sissy response, not an all-male one. What would that look like?

"Honey, I just KNOW you must be hurtin', it must be SO awful to feel that way! Now what do you want to do about it?"

Something like that. A little more syrup and honey and a little less Mac truck.

Bottom line, say how you feel but NEVER EVER EVER admit or agree to anything. Ok? Validate all you can. That must be so hard. It must be scary to see me change. I can't imagine how confused you are. Stuff like that.

When she tries to corner you and pin you down to admitting your guilt - and she WILL - THEN you step back and put up the shield and say 'I'll have to think about it.'

Do not agree to anything.


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> I believe I could do the looking part, but *then she will require* some sort of answer


njp, do you see how you are GIVING her control over you?

She can *require* til the cows come home. That doesn't mean you have to PARTICIPATE!

Stop thinking like she has the right to tell you what to do!

I can REQUIRE that my boss give me a $10,000 raise. She would look at me and laugh. And walk away.

Do you see how REQUIRE is just YOU giving away control over yourself?


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> Otherwise, *she'll just keeping searching* until I finally do say something like: "I do understand and will try to be more aware of your needs in the future"


 LET HER SEARCH. Let her dig. Let her moan. Let her accuse. Let her pull out every guilt card she's been hoarding on you for as long as she's known you, just for this occasion.

Remain silent. 

Then let her yell. And she will. 

At THAT point, you VERY CALMLY stand up, walk to the door, hold it open for her to leave, and wait. Silently.


----------



## turnera

Come to think of it, you may want to set up your video recorder on a shelf somewhere. If you don't have one, stop on the way home and get a voice recorder and keep it running. You are going to make her so mad that she is likely to start throwing things. And if that doesn't work to make you Change Back! into what you were before, her next step will be to call the police and report that you were abusing her. Keep it recorded.


----------



## njpca

Drover said:


> There's nothing to be gained from trying to force people to agree with your feelings by arguing.


And that, I know, is that trap I keep falling into. She has a need for a response to those feelings.

I always find I'm am shamed intothings when I do things wrong that effect her. The response she takes is "How are you going to make up for it?"


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> The response she takes is "How are you going to make up for it?"


 And the healthy response to THAT is to laugh, happily, hug her, and say, 'oh honey, you are so funny. Now where should be go for dinner?'


----------



## turnera

btw, are you in IC to get to the root of your shame? You'll never get rid of this trigger until you do.


----------



## Conrad

turnera said:


> LET HER SEARCH. Let her dig. Let her moan. Let her accuse. Let her pull out every guilt card she's been hoarding on you for as long as she's known you, just for this occasion.
> 
> Remain silent.
> 
> Then let her yell. And she will.
> 
> At THAT point, you VERY CALMLY stand up, walk to the door, hold it open for her to leave, and wait. Silently.


There is much power in the phrase, "I'm not ok with that"

And just leave it there.

She will be convinced of nothing. And, why the urge to reason with an unreasonable person? How many times has that worked?


----------



## njpca

I am not currently doing IC. Long ago, when we first got married we started counseling together to deal with things we were going through with my family. Then when we first separated I went back to this therapist to start working on the issues.

In the end, my wife felt it was not working and couldn't continue to afford it, so I stopped.

Since then, I have gone to numerous sessions with her therapist and done a couple of MC sessions together.

The last one we went to a couple months ago basically said I was depressed and needed to do my own IC. Again, we don't really have the money to make that work so I am kind of stuck and have to try work on things on my own.

I actually have never thought of the shame issue, but since I started reading NMMNG, I am sure it stems somewhere in childhood and family. Just can't pinpoint an exact instance where I it could have come from


----------



## Conrad

Go back to therapy as an individual.

You can't afford not to do it.

Make it happen - for you.

Her therapist is not your therapist.

And, marriage counseling is no substitute for the work you need to do on you.


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## turnera

Go to United Way and see if they can help you find someone on a sliding fee scale that you can afford.

If you have toxic shame, it is going to be HARD for you to stand up to her because you have an innate belief that you are flawed and everyone else deserves more than you. That is hard stuff to work through. Look up toxic shame.


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## Thor

njpca said:


> And that, I know, is that trap I keep falling into. She has a need for a response to those feelings.
> 
> I always find I'm am shamed into things when I do things wrong that effect her. The response she takes is "How are you going to make up for it?"


One response is JBHO. Just Bend Her Over. Over the couch, over the kitchen table, etc, and give her a good plowing. 

That is only half in jest, too. I don't think you can go from zero to Warp Speed on something like this. But really it can work when she is getting testy.

So don't accept shame for what you have done. You might have screwed something up, and in that case you accept _responsibility_ but not shame. You did something incorrectly, but you are not a shame worthy person for making the mistake. (Presuming normal stuff, not affairs or beating her).

Try reflecting back to her when she says something. e.g. "You were upset when I didn't ask you why you were angry". It is a powerful tool. She will feel that you heard her complaint, and it will lower her steam pressure.

You can even acknowledge her feelings. "I can see how you could feel I wasn't attentive to your desire of getting the house clean before guests arrived". You aren't admitting guilt, you are acknowledging that she had a feeling and that it was not crazy.

Don't defend yourself more than once, and even better don't defend yourself at all most times. Fogging is an excellent technique. "Yes honey, sometimes I can be insensitive". You don't defend yourself, and you don't even admit guilt for a particular transgression.

Definitely put the book "The Way of the Superior Man" by Deida on your reading list. It has some excellent descriptions of how the female psyche works, and how it is healthy for there to be some types of tensions in a male/female relationship. There is disagreement on some aspects of the book which can be pretty new-age, but a substantial portion of the book is excellent in describing femininity and masculinity.

You are not responsible to make her happy. You are not responsible to fill all of her needs or wants. It is ok for her to be upset at you or at a situation. It is ok for you to not agree with her on something and for her to still be upset by it. 

I can't keep all of the threads straight here. Have you two read some relationship books like "5 Love Languages", or "How to Get the Love You Want"?


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## Drover

Look into sliding scale counseling in your area. I found it through a local organization for $40/session for a guy who usually charge $225 but works 1 day a week with them. There are some that even do pro bono.


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## njpca

Thor said:


> I can't keep all of the threads straight here. Have you two read some relationship books like "5 Love Languages", or "How to Get the Love You Want"?


No, we haven't read them. I have heard those books in previous posts and threads. I suppose it could be good for us at some point, just not sure if it's time until more positive changes start taking place between us.


----------



## turnera

In a perfect world, you would have embraced NMMNG so well, and overcome your shame issues, so that you could meet her tonight and say 'you know what? As much as you think I'm not doing enough for you, I KNOW you're not doing enough for me, and I'm frankly tired of it. So I think we should consider separation, unless you want to convince me why I should stay.'

And at THAT point, you could say to her 'there are a bunch of books I want us to read together. If you want to give us another chance, pick one of them out, and we'll start meeting to discuss them.'


----------



## njpca

Oh my god, it is now been 5.5 hours since we finished dinner and had a long drawn out conversation and she just left.

Basically I followed the scripts that you guys recommended to a T to express how I felt. I did this in calm and frank manner, not raising my voice or expressing any distinctive emotion. She then decided to lay waste over everything and reiterated that I wasn't being a husband by meeting her emotional needs that I should. She said I have laid waste to two years of lies and deceit to try and make things work only to come out with these thoughts and all she this was a rejection of how she felt. 

She ran through the gamut of emotions, trying to garner some kind of reaction from me. I just kept repeating all the things that I mentioned before and calmly told her these were my feelings of things and I wanted her to be a part of this as I worked it out.

It just got her angrier and more angrier. She even said that she would rather have a husband who at least yells and screams at her because he at least shows some emotion to the situation. I seriously can't believe that, she actually wants me to act passive aggressive to her.

She threw her purse, slammed her hand on the coffee table, forced me to stand up and hug her so that I could feel something for her. She went just crazy to right to elicit some emotional response from me. Again, I stated that I loved her and want to change things for the better in our lives, I hope that you can join me in that.

By the time it was all said and done, she basically was lost and confused on what could be done next. A couple of times she said that she can't be in this kind of situation, that she couldn't understand why I would decide to treat her this way, that I would reject and abandon her. I think she was just having such a hard time coming to terms, that she couldn't just leave and deal with it. I probably should have figured out a way to stop the conversation from dragging on, but at the same time I felt I needed her to get this whole thing through her.

She called me a POS, said that I was a narcissitic jerk, that everyone in my family and friends were in bed with our relationship, that I never tried, that I was abandoning her and her two cousins leaving her to be a single mother on welfare. She tried so hard to guilt me into making me give in to it all. I felt huge anxiety because I really had to shut myself off from it all, but again I tried to calmly say that I can't live this type of life anymore and needed to make changes in the way that I behave.

So now she can't deal with the fact that we are probably going to have to divorce. To top all of the guilt off, she called while on her way back to her dad's, stating that she couldn't drive and needed someone to take her to the hospital. She is literally starting to become unfunctional because of everything we talked about.

I am kind of shaking now, trying to say that everything is going to be okay, but yeah she did exactly what everyone thought was going to happen. She just has no grip on reality and her emotions at this point, even though she goes to a therapist. What the hell do they talk about now?

Part of me really just wants to tell her and show her the NMMNG method so at least she understands, but then I think that all she will say is that it's wrong and that will force me to throw it out and move on.

I can't see how people can go through these fitness tests and not feel worse than they ever had before. Not having any safe people to talk to is probably not helping.

Anybody know if I should stay the course or try any different approach. All I know is she supposed to be back in the morning and is probably expecting me to continue to be a jerk or change my mind and make her feel better.


----------



## Deejo

I'm going to make a declarative statement about following any NMMNG or 'manning-up' strategy.

Other people have stated it. I will try to state it clearly.

Your goal is to save your marriage and make your wife love you.

That is not the goal of NMMNG or 'manning up'. Lots of guys think that it is. I certainly did, out of the gate. Lots of guys make the decision to do this stuff in order to save their relationship, which certainly isn't wrong, it's just not the correct perspective.

It is primarily for and about YOU. Not her. 

So ... as others have stated, you are approaching this entire enterprise _from the wrong perspective_

There are two possible outcomes by establishing boundaries, being more assertive, and communicating more effectively;

You reset your relationship dynamic and rebuild a better, healthier, one.

Or,

You recognize that your relationship dynamic is utterly broken, cannot be fixed, despite your efforts and you soldier on and cope, or leave the relationship.

The most important piece that you will need to understand ... is that you only have a shot at resetting your relationship presuming that your partner is mentally healthy, and wants to serve the relationship as well.

Bottom line, what do YOU want to do?

You are obviously unsure, and appear to be very anxious about the thought of alienating or losing your wife.

My point ... and I've stated it numerous times, you cannot possibly make changes to your marriage in order to change it for the better, if you aren't prepared to deal with the fact that you may lose your marriage as a result.


----------



## AFEH

njpca said:


> It just got her angrier and more angrier. She even said that she would rather have a husband who at least yells and screams at her because he at least shows some emotion to the situation. I seriously can't believe that, she actually wants me to act passive aggressive to her.


That is NOT passive aggression. You are totally wrong if you thing that is passive aggression. In fact if you think that is passive aggression then you are, as I mentioned before, more likely a passive aggressive!

Passive aggressives do NOT show their emotions. Not even when they are sliding the knife so deeply and painfully into your back where you can’t see them!

Active Aggressors show their emotions! You know when an AA is wounded and mad. You have not a clue when a PA is wounded and mad.

Being NICE is about hiding your emotions such that you are always seen as NICE. It is not an authentic way to live!


I lived with a passive aggressive. I say your wife has all the signs that you are a passive aggressive! That you are literally driving her crazy.


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## AFEH

Njpca, these changes you want to make aren’t going to happen over night. Although you can get some pretty immediate results, most especially with boundaries, these things are not a 100 yard sprint, they are a marathon.

You seem to be like a blue bottle fly in a jar, buzzing around a lot, expending energy but getting nowhere. In fact you seem to be making things a whole lot worse.

Take deep breaths and slow right the way down. Stop being that blue bottle in the jar. You need to be more like that elephant, you know?

This is about you. It is NOT about your wife. Tell your wife you recognise you have some deeply routed problems and that you are working on resolving them. Tell her you would truly appreciate her patience and perseverance for a few months while you try and change things inside of you.

Just keep it real simple and just get that message through to her in a very calm and very collected, very mature, kind and very loving way.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

AFEH said:


> That is NOT passive aggression. You are totally wrong if you thing that is passive aggression. In fact if you think that is passive aggression then you are, as I mentioned before, more likely a passive aggressive!
> 
> Passive aggressives do NOT show their emotions. Not even when they are sliding the knife so deeply and painfully into your back where you can’t see them!
> 
> Active Aggressors show their emotions! You know when an AA is wounded and mad. You have not a clue when a PA is wounded and mad.
> 
> Being NICE is about hiding your emotions such that you are always seen as NICE. It is not an authentic way to live!
> 
> 
> I lived with a passive aggressive. I say your wife has all the signs that you are a passive aggressive! That you are literally driving her crazy.


Let me also add that there is a difference between showing your emotions and not controlling those emotions. You can let your wife know that you are angry, for example, without screaming or punching a wall. You can communicate your anger, including indicating with the tone of your voice, while still being in control. That is you goal.


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## njpca

The point has been always to try to better myself and change the way that I have acted, which to me has been passive aggressive in the past and built up resentment that has led me to explode and be scared of standing up to my wife in many different instaces.

Regardless, it is true that my hope was that I could repair things with my wife. The anxiety that I feel is that I have never behaved like this before. I have always in the past given in and tried to make things work on her terms, going along with what she thought was best. I can't do that anymore, otherwise I am going to be moving to places I don't want to go and taking jobs that I really don't want. I finally reached my breaking point in putting up with it.

AFEH, I would agree with you completely that I probably stemmed too far into passive aggression in the past, which probably has not helped in the situation. The strangest things in this whole process is that I discovered I have wanted to make this relationship work more than ever. I guess there are lingering issues to her that came from my passive aggression and I think she still thinks I am going to exhibit the same kind of response.

I am sure I took it too far last night withholding back the emotions, but I just needed to start taking some of the abuse and not let it affect me like it did in the past. Otherwise, I would have gone back into my old habits.

These past couple days, I thought I was trying to be positive and showing that I am trying to make things better in the relationship. Perhaps, as you said I need to be more coaxing.

It's just so hard when she is so used to these past behaviors that she takes any kind of change as a way I have turned her off. Why is she pushing back so hard?


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> I am sure I took it too far last night withholding back the emotions, but I just needed to start taking some of the abuse and not let it affect me like it did in the past. Otherwise, I would have gone back into my old habits.


No, you didn't. You did JUST FINE. In fact, you did GREAT.

The only issue is in WHY you are doing it. You're slowly moving to the realization that you need to do it for YOU, so that YOU can be a happy, healthy person for the rest of your life, regardless of who is on the journey with you. You'll get there. It won't happen overnight. But it will happen, as long as you don't backslide. Keep thinking of it in terms of the prescription your doctor gave you - you HAVE to keep talking/doing it, or you won't get better. Even if it tastes like poop. In the long run, you'll be happy and healthy. 

And here's a big secret: your wife probably loves you. She just stopped ADMIRING you because you were a NG. And the more you become a NG, the more she pushed you, and the more you became a NG...

As my very smart IC has told me many times, if you stop propping up your mentally unhealthy spouse, stop being their third leg (so they don't have to stand on their own two feet/admit their own faults), they will either (1) LEARN to stand up and see themselves honestly and seek help and learn to become happy and healthy like you, or (2) fall flat on their faces, in which case they'll spend the rest of their lives in misery.

That is not in your control. It is THEIR mind, THEIR soul, THEIR personality that has to make the decision, face their fears, seek the help.

All you can control is how you fix yourself. And so far, you're doing great.

Will she be there at the end? Who knows? Who knows if she'll see the truth and do the hard work. I spent more than 30 years wanting DH to get help yet not being willing to upset the apple cart...until a month ago. Now he has an appointment to see a therapist because I told him if he didn't, I was going to leave.

You just never know what they will do. Personally, I think she wants to be with you and, like a kid forced to take medicine, she will start to accept the new you, admire him, and love him, and eventually (after a lot of therapy) come out a happy, healthy person, too. And she'll thank you for saving her.


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> It's just so hard when she is so used to these past behaviors that she takes any kind of change as a way I have turned her off. Why is she pushing back so hard?


 This is the Change Back! behavior I keep telling you about. Do you remember me telling you about it? It's like a drug addict when you hide the pills - they will scramble like a dog with rabies to get those drugs (your NG) back. Until they realize it's futile. Then, they will either submit and go along with the changes, or say screw you and go look for someone else to give them the drugs. OUT of your control.

Remember this: She has been using "You don't love me" as her major weapon for your entire relationship. And it's worked, hasn't it? The instant she says 'you don't love me any more, how could you do that if you loved me, etc.' you would JUMP to prove to her that you did. 

YOU knew you loved her. SHE knew you loved her. It was just a TACTIC to get more, a tactic that worked...until this week. When she had made the most ridiculous demand of all. Do you see how they escalated? You've given in on every single demand of hers, required to 'prove' that you love her, so she had to keep upping the ante. Now, if you don't move and give up a job you love, you don't love her. BS! And utterly ridiculous. Any other man who heard that would have just looked at her, incredulous, and said 'You CAN'T be serious!' But here you were, looking for crappy jobs!

So she escalates, because the LAST way you proved your love was no longer good enough. Pretty soon, she would have had you robbing banks to prove it. Or donating a kidney.

So, long story short, she NEEDS to feel like you don't love her. That way, her own insecurities will finally be unmasked and she'll have to face them out front. NOW, you two can start to have real conversations (hopefully in front of a counselor) about why she needs to have you prove love that you've proven a hundred thousand times already.

She's pushing back because her safety net (Nice Guy) is gone. Expect it, wait for it, ignore it, and just keep calmly repeating "I love you, but I have to make this change for my own sanity."


----------



## ShuttleDIK

Ouch. Keep at it, man. It don't tickle, but you're worth working on.

I have some problems w/ the NMMNG aesthetic. It's a bit of a contradiction in that we're supposed to be improving ourselves by accepting who we are?! If I was accepting who I was, I wouldn't be improving, would I? Things like that. I'm over-simplifying, but I definitely ran into that alot. 

Deej's advice of picking the parts that work was good to me. Definitely helped me get my shti back together after the bombs dropped. I've employed a lot of MMSL(g?) tools as well, again, picking what worked.

I can't say I'm through the woods - but I've found some breadcrumbs and I hear the interstate. ...
...

..
.

There's that damn gingerbread house again... what's going on here? Gretel?


----------



## C123

I don't mean to undermine what's going on here, but is it possible that NMMNG is not as useful when you're dealing with a wife who has obvious and serious emotional problems? It seems like NMMNG works best for men who are in relationships with pretty stable women who, over time, have just flat out taken advantage of their nice guy husband.

NJPCA's wife has serious problems. He's not dealing with a stable person. He can use some of the tools from NMMNG to get her to address her very serious emotional problems, but until they are addressed, I don't think he's going to get where he wants to be.

I'm sorry, but this woman needs serious help. She needs to be seeing mental health professionals.


----------



## turnera

It's possible. But he first has to get to a point where he is willing to face her outbursts without caving. Otherwise, he would never be strong enough to enact a boundary: get help or we will be separating.


----------



## Drover

C123 said:


> I don't mean to undermine what's going on here, but is it possible that NMMNG is not as useful when you're dealing with a wife who has obvious and serious emotional problems? It seems like NMMNG works best for men who are in relationships with pretty stable women who, over time, have just flat out taken advantage of their nice guy husband.
> 
> NJPCA's wife has serious problems. He's not dealing with a stable person. He can use some of the tools from NMMNG to get her to address her very serious emotional problems, but until they are addressed, I don't think he's going to get where he wants to be.
> 
> I'm sorry, but this woman needs serious help. She needs to be seeing mental health professionals.


This is what Deej was talking about. NMMNG is not a way of dealing with your wife. It's not a way of fixing your marriage or your relationship. It's not about the wife at all. It's about you.


----------



## Conrad

C123 said:


> I don't mean to undermine what's going on here, but is it possible that NMMNG is not as useful when you're dealing with a wife who has obvious and serious emotional problems? It seems like NMMNG works best for men who are in relationships with pretty stable women who, over time, have just flat out taken advantage of their nice guy husband.
> 
> NJPCA's wife has serious problems. He's not dealing with a stable person. He can use some of the tools from NMMNG to get her to address her very serious emotional problems, but until they are addressed, I don't think he's going to get where he wants to be.
> 
> I'm sorry, but this woman needs serious help. She needs to be seeing mental health professionals.


He needs to do what's best for him.

NMMNG puts him on that path.

What she does is - literally - up to her.


----------



## C123

Drover, I hear what you're saying, but most of the guys who implement the NMMNG tools are doing it because they are unhappy with how they feel about themselves in the context of their marriage. It is an indirect way of "dealing" with your wife because you're trying to change yourself so that you feel better about your interactions with your wife and your place in the household.

Most nice guys are pretty satisfied in the fact that they are nice guys. They think that being a nice guy should make any woman happy. They have to change that mindset because being a nice guy is having the opposite effect than what they think should happen.

Therefore, NMMNG is a method to changing yourself, but only because you don't like where being a nice guy has gotten you. Most nice guys would just prefer that their wife appreciate who they have and show them how much they appreciate it. Sadly, that doesn't often happen.

NJPCA is making these changes precisely because he doesn't like where he stands in the marital household. Therefore he's making these changes to change the dynamic between himself and his wife. My fear is that before a new, healthy dynamic can be created (using whatever method), you need to be with someone who is emotionally capable of creating that dynamic with you. This man's wife is not.

I don't know all of the facts of NJPCA's life and marriage, but I do know that rationalizing with a crazy person is impossible and leaving her because she's crazy is immoral. This woman needs serious professional help and only when some level of emotional stability is reached can NJPCA determine whether or not the NMMNG model works for him.


----------



## Drover

C123 said:


> Drover, I hear what you're saying, but most of the guys who implement the NMMNG tools are doing it because they are unhappy with how they feel about themselves in the context of their marriage. It is an indirect way of "dealing" with your wife because you're trying to change yourself so that you feel better about your interactions with your wife and your place in the household.
> 
> Most nice guys are pretty satisfied in the fact that they are nice guys. They think that being a nice guy should make any woman happy. They have to change that mindset because being a nice guy is having the opposite effect than what they think should happen.
> 
> Therefore, NMMNG is a method to changing yourself, but only because you don't like where being a nice guy has gotten you. Most nice guys would just prefer that their wife appreciate who they have and show them how much they appreciate it. Sadly, that doesn't often happen.


I don't think this is true at all. From my own experience I resented her every second I was a nice guy, and resented myself for my behavior too. Nice guys might tell themselves a lot of things, but when they stop lying to themselves they know they're not happy with being what they are.

The advanced state of marital decay is only the trigger that finally makes them look at the truth about themselves.


----------



## turnera

The offshoot of all this, C123, is that the former NG will start to be proud of himself, treat himself more fairly, and consider himself a good catch. None of which was apparent before. Any NG needs that to be able to approach the table willing to defend himself. After that, what happens, happens. 

But it can't happen until he makes the change.


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## C123

Drover and turnera - interesting insights. Thanks.


----------



## turnera

The thing is, whether it's a BH trying to get his WW to stop cheating, a NG trying to get his wife to stop abusing him, whether it's a SS man trying to get his wife to get in bed more...what we give them is a tool, a step, that will help them achieve what they need. They all START OUT doing this so they can get what they want in their marriage. 

And, along the way, they realize that what we were really talking about was them fixing THEMSELVES so that, no matter WHAT the wife does, they will be ok with themselves.


----------



## njpca

She came back this morning and I talked further about everything. I used AFEH's script to console and try to get her understand more fully what I was trying to say last night.

The thing she keeps getting wrapped about it all is that she doesn't understand why I have to protect myself in our marriage and that I should at least be open to her. I continued to reiterate that I don't want to get angry the way I normally do, in a passive aggressive way, but I think all she is seeing is that any boundaries I create is a way for me to wall up to her and not show emotion.

She states that I have put us through too much these last couple years because of the way I have acted and she basically wants some guarantees/assurances that she will be able to handle this all even if I don't want to continue

The first example, and later she admitted that this was an extreme example, was that we come to a post nuptial agreement to ensure she will be taken care of (WTF!!). Then she just said want me to be open to her emotionally and to not treat her in the ways that I had been doing in NMMNG approach. I continued to try to coax her that this is me trying to change and do something different so I don't act the way I did before, but to all it was just a constant reminder that I don't care about her and her needs. 

To keep it dragging on yet again, I just said I will try to think about these things and talk again to tomorrow and then she left. So basically, I am supposed to come up with a way to know that she will better about this.

The tough thing about this, is that I don't know if there can be any guarantees in what I can provide for her. I know that I can work on myself and that's it, and just hope she can deal with. It appears the NMMNG is not the way that she can deal with things and I will either have to abandon it or basically face the facts that she will this as a way of us moving on and as Turnera pointed out, "fall flat on her face."

She has completely destroyed my vacation plans and has left me to try to deal with these issues now. I stated that I was upset and angry about this happening this way and she retorted "Well, I am sorry but you destroyed my life up to this point" But she did have a good point that it was going to have take this vacation period for us to finally take some serious time in dealing with these issues. Still, this really sucks and is way too much to deal with emotionally in such a short period of time!


----------



## C123

_"She has completely destroyed my vacation plans and has left me to try to deal with these issues now. I stated that I was upset and angry about this happening this way and she retorted "Well, I am sorry but you destroyed my life up to this point" But she did have a good point that it was going to have take this vacation period for us to finally take some serious time in dealing with these issues. Still, this really sucks and is way too much to deal with emotionally in such a short period of time!"_

Don't you dare let this woman do this to you. This is unacceptable behavior from an adult. I'm not sure this relationship is salvageable on any level. Do whatever the hell you want to do. Don't let her BS determine what you do on your vacation and don't let her put the blame on you. Whatever it is that you did to her is in the past. Either she gets over it or she doesn't. I now agree with Drover and Turnera. This person is a master manipulator because they are the only people who would say such a thing to their husband. Enough is enough.


----------



## njpca

And BTW, I know that my wife is probably more emotionally unstable because I KNOW NOW the kind of **** she has gone through before meeting me. Unfortunately I had to find them out while I was married.

The problem is that I don't think anyone can or will tell her that she has to change also. It's clear that all her therapist does is validate her feelings and keeps her coming back until she does something about it. Even recently, she admitted that he often tells her she may just have to pack up and leave, but she has very little faith in doing so without feeling miserable.

And any counselor that we go together has to subjective and look at both sides of the pond and not place blame, so there is not really an avenue for someone to just tell it to her like it is and give it to her straight. Maybe that's part of NMMNG ways of finally doing that for her.


----------



## Thor

Nj, you should also use the support forums on the nmmng site.

Was your wife abused or assaulted? Thay adds a major complication.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Drover

I don't even know what I'm reading here. none of this makes any sense.



njpca said:


> The thing she keeps getting wrapped about it all is that she doesn't understand why I have to protect myself in our marriage and that I should at least be open to her. I continued to reiterate that I don't want to get angry the way I normally do, in a passive aggressive way, but I think all she is seeing is that any boundaries I create is a way for me to wall up to her and not show emotion.


Why are you explaining all this to her? Just act, man! Stop explaining yourself to her. State how you feel, then let her respond if she feels a need. But you don't have to defend a FEELING!



> She states that I have put us through too much these last couple years because of the way I have acted and she basically wants some guarantees/assurances that she will be able to handle this all even if I don't want to continue


What have you put her through? I thought you were passive-aggressive. That's the opposite of confrontation, the opposite of stating feelings, the opposite of yelling and screaming.

Passive-aggressive is pissy little get-even behavior, or trying to indirectly express your feelings with body-language or actions.

Stop doing that and just calmly tell her how you feel, when you feel it. Then let it go. No resentment.



> The first example, and later she admitted that this was an extreme example, was that we come to a post nuptial agreement to ensure she will be taken care of (WTF!!). Then she just said want me to be open to her emotionally and to not treat her in the ways that I had been doing in NMMNG approach. I continued to try to coax her that this is me trying to change and do something different so I don't act the way I did before, but to all it was just a constant reminder that I don't care about her and her needs.


How is a post-nup passive aggressive? That doesn't even make sense. If you're treating her badly doing NMMNG then you're doing it wrong. If you're calm, cool and quiet and she doesn't like that, that's her problem not yours. Why are you trying to convince her to like it? STOP!



> To keep it dragging on yet again, I just said I will try to think about these things and talk again to tomorrow and then she left. So basically, I am supposed to come up with a way to know that she will better about this.


STOP!!!



> The tough thing about this, is that I don't know if there can be any guarantees in what I can provide for her. I know that I can work on myself and that's it, and just hope she can deal with. It appears the NMMNG is not the way that she can deal with things and I will either have to abandon it or basically face the facts that she will this as a way of us moving on and as Turnera pointed out, "fall flat on her face."


STOP explaining and defending yourself!!! NMMNG isn't about HER dealing with anything!



> She has completely destroyed my vacation plans and has left me to try to deal with these issues now. I stated that I was upset and angry about this happening this way and she retorted "Well, I am sorry but you destroyed my life up to this point" But she did have a good point that it was going to have take this vacation period for us to finally take some serious time in dealing with these issues. Still, this really sucks and is way too much to deal with emotionally in such a short period of time!


Why are you letting her do this to you?


----------



## AFEH

Njpca, you keep blaming things on your wife!

She made me do this.

She made me do that.

She made me do the other.

Goodness gracious me. Stop blaming your wife for your behaviour!


----------



## njpca

Thor said:


> Nj, you should also use the support forums on the nmmng site.
> 
> Was your wife abused or assaulted? Thay adds a major complication.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Yes, unfortunately she was in a abusive relationship years before she met me. She seemed so put together and she had reassured me that she had dealt with all of the issues and even when we were dating stopped going to therapy.

Sadly, I recently found out in the last several she was also raped when she was a teenager and had to have an abortion because of it. I was completely blown away by this and I feel it's created more anxiety on my part to have to make things better.


----------



## njpca

AFEH said:


> Njpca, you keep blaming things on your wife!
> 
> She made me do this.
> 
> She made me do that.
> 
> She made me do the other.
> 
> Goodness gracious me. Stop blaming your wife for your behaviour!


I don't see where I'm doing this. On the contrary, I have feel like I have gotten over a lot of it. Yes, I was upset over the vacation thing, but I thought I have a right to feel this way. In no way, was it to blame her. I just wanted to tell her that is how I felt. What behavior am I still exhibiting that incites blame?


----------



## Thor

Nj I am travelling the next few days and thus limited to cell phone internet. So I can't adequately type out a full response.

Firstly, I am saddened by what your wife experienced. She did not deserve any of it, nor is it fair what she suffers now because of it. It is her responsibility to seek help, and she has no right to spread her misery to you. It is not your responsibility to cure her, to coddle her, or to force her into proper therapy.

It seems almost universal that Nice Guys marry women with assault or abuse histoties, or a woman with npd or bpd.

Her behavior may be due to working through her trauma in therapy. It is not acceptable but it is possible it is temporary and a sign of progress. Maybe.

Read asap the book "Haunted Marriage".

Assault/abuse survivors seem to have an extreme fear of abandonment in general. Your wife may have been triggered by your changes. Not knowing of my wife's abuse history at the time, I did a basic 180 six or seven years ago. She took it as abandonment. Lots of red flags of affairs after that. So be cautious on pulling away or other such techniques. Your wife's mind works very differently due to her trauma.

She needs good trauma therapy. You should be dialed in with her therapist for periodic updates and advice on how to help your wife. You may have ptsd. You should be in some kind of counseling with someone expwrienced in abuse/assault and especially in helping Secondary Survivors cope.

Check out the secondary forum on After Silence - A message board and chat room for survivors of rape and sexual assault. (Powered by Invision Power Board) . You have to register to get access to that subforum.

Best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> so basically, i am supposed to come up with a way [for her] to know that she will [feel] better about this.


*not your job*


----------



## njpca

As a follow up, here's what she wrote to me in email:


Hi - 


I just wanted to let you know that I've been reading about "regaining trust in a spouse" and a lot of therapists call what I am asking for "restitution." I read on one really great article that when trust has been broken repeatedly a lot of spouses will look for some sort of restitution as assurance that even if trust is broken again, that there is work being done to move forward in life together.


I also think that a lot of my fear and concern is because when this happened before all you did was go to therapy and lie more, and use therapy as a crutch by which you lied and kept secrets and continued to abuse. I want you to get therapy and I want life to get better, but it will never get better if you have to abuse me and hurt me intentionally to do that.


Lastly, I wanted to mention that I was thinking about you expressing upsettedness that this is ruining your vacation. For one, I understand that and feel the same way. And I understand that you were looking for validation of that feeling. I have expressed feelings to you very recently along the same lines - my birthday, when I returned from vacation, your contact or lack there of when I was gone - and you said nothing about those. My feelings are just as important as yours. They are not less than yours. 


I am sorry but I feel like until you give me some sort of assurance that you are not just going to make all these "changes" and abuse me more to make things better; or rather that you will not intentionally cut me down and tear me apart to have your own personal growth, I just cannot buy into anything else. I already said that I'm just restating it now so that you can know a few things: (1) I am willing to stick around while you continue to personally grow, if and only if (2) you are personally growing along with me. (3) I love you enough to continue to try and to be understanding, but (4) I love myself too and I know that I need some sort of assurance other than another "trust me." "Fool me once, shame on you ... fool me twice, shame on me" I guess is what I cannot confront anymore. I cannot allow myself to continue to take responsibility for the hurt that you bring to me for the sake of protecting yourself from whatever it is that you are protecting yourself from feeling.


I hope through the course of the day you are learning to understand my feelings about that.


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> I used AFEH's script *to console [HER]* *NOT YOUR JOB *and try to get her understand more fully what I was trying to say last night.
> 
> The thing she keeps getting wrapped about it all is that she doesn't understand why I have to protect myself in our marriage and that *I should at least be open to her*. *SHE DOESN'T GET TO TELL YOU WHAT YOU SHOULD DO.* I continued to reiterate that I don't want to get angry the way I normally do, in a passive aggressive way, but I think all she is seeing is that *any boundaries I create is a way for me to wall up to her and not show emotion*. *THAT IS HER RIGHT; YOUR JOB IS TO DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO.*
> 
> She states that *I have put us through too much* *STOP LETTING HER BLAME YOU; DO NOT ACCEPT BLAME YOU DON'T DESERVE* these last couple years *because of the way I have acted* *MORE BLAMING YOU* and *she basically wants some guarantees*/assurances *that she will be able to handle this *all even if I don't want to continue *NOT YOUR JOB - YOU DON'T OWE HER ANY GUARANTEE; IN FACT, IT'S ABOUT TIME YOU STARTED TELLING HER HOW BADLY YOU HAVE BEEN TREATED, DON'T YOU THINK?*
> 
> The first example, and later she admitted that this was an extreme example, was that *we come to a post nuptial agreement to ensure she will be taken care of* *NOT YOUR JOB *(WTF!!). Then she just said want me to be open to her emotionally and to *not treat her in the ways that I had been doing in NMMNG approach*. *TOO BAD SO SAD - YOU CAN ACT ANY WAY YOU WANT TO, AND IF SHE WANTS YOU TO TREAT HER BETTER, TELL HER TO LOOK IN THE MIRROR; YOU GET WHAT YOU GIVE.* I continued to *try to coax her* *NOT YOUR JOB* that this is me trying to change and do something different *so I don't act the way I did before NJP THIS IS YOU TRYING TO SUGARCOAT YOUR NEED TO BE HAPPY IN TERMS THAT YOU ARE FIXING YOURSELF WHEN THE TRUTH IS THAT IT IS SHE WHO IS HARMING YOU - WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO BE BRAVE ENOUGH TO TELL HER THE TRUTH?*, but to all it was just a constant reminder that *I don't care about her and her needs*. *THAT IS HER CHOICE TO SEE IT THAT WAY - NOT YOUR PROBLEM*
> 
> To keep it dragging on yet again, I just said I will try to think about these things and talk again to tomorrow and then she left. So basically, I am supposed to come up with a way to know that she will better about this. *NOT YOUR JOB; WHEN SHE COMES BACK, ASK HER WHAT SHE SEES THAT SHE NEEDS TO IMPROVE.*
> 
> The tough thing about this, is that *I don't know if there can be any guarantees* in what I can provide for her.*OF COURSE THERE AREN'T; THERE SHOULDN'T BE - IT'S NOT YOUR JOB TO GUARANTEE HER ANYTHING BUT TO TRY AS LONG AS YOU ARE GETTING YOUR NEEDS MET. * I know that I can work on myself and that's it, and just hope she can deal with. It appears the NMMNG is not the way that she can deal with things and* I will either have to abandon it* or basically face the facts that she will this as a way of us moving on and as Turnera pointed out, "fall flat on her face." *OH GOOD GRIEF - YOU WOULD ABANDON WHAT YOU KNOW YOU NEED JUST BECAUSE IT MAKES HER UNHAPPY? OBVIOUSLY YOU ARE NOT EVEN PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT NMMNG MEANS.*
> 
> She has completely destroyed my vacation plans and has left me to try to deal with these issues now. I stated that I was upset and angry about this happening this way and she retorted "Well, I am sorry but you destroyed my life up to this point" But she did have a good point that* it was going to have take this vacation period for us to finally take some serious time in dealing with these issues.* *UH NO. HELL NO. YOU ARE GOING TO GO ON VACATION AND SHE IS FREE TO SIT THERE AND STEW AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT A NEW WAY TO MANIPULATE YOU; YOU ARE GOING TO GO HAVE FUN. *Still, this really sucks and is way too much to deal with emotionally in such a short period of time!


Do you see the difference? You have been brainwashed and it is going to take you a long time to get it out of your system. But the first step is to no longer accept responsibility for her happiness. Over and over and over you keep bringing up that one thing. Do you see it?

Bottom line, you weren't born onto this earth to ensure that she lives a happy, pampered, carefree life. GETTING to be married to you is a benefit of treating YOU well. You are not a slave born into slavery just for the purpose of fanning her or feeding her grapes. Tell her to get over herself.


----------



## Drover

What is all this abuse she's talking about?



njpca said:


> As a follow up, here's what she wrote to me in email:
> 
> 
> Hi -
> 
> 
> I just wanted to let you know that I've been reading about "regaining trust in a spouse" and a lot of therapists call what I am asking for "restitution." I read on one really great article that when trust has been broken repeatedly a lot of spouses will look for some sort of restitution as assurance that even if trust is broken again, that there is work being done to move forward in life together.
> 
> 
> I also think that a lot of my fear and concern is because when this happened before all you did was go to therapy and lie more, and use therapy as a crutch by which you lied and kept secrets and continued to abuse. I want you to get therapy and I want life to get better, but it will never get better if you have to abuse me and hurt me intentionally to do that.
> 
> 
> Lastly, I wanted to mention that I was thinking about you expressing upsettedness that this is ruining your vacation. For one, I understand that and feel the same way. And I understand that you were looking for validation of that feeling. I have expressed feelings to you very recently along the same lines - my birthday, when I returned from vacation, your contact or lack there of when I was gone - and you said nothing about those. My feelings are just as important as yours. They are not less than yours.
> 
> 
> I am sorry but I feel like until you give me some sort of assurance that you are not just going to make all these "changes" and abuse me more to make things better; or rather that you will not intentionally cut me down and tear me apart to have your own personal growth, I just cannot buy into anything else. I already said that I'm just restating it now so that you can know a few things: (1) I am willing to stick around while you continue to personally grow, if and only if (2) you are personally growing along with me. (3) I love you enough to continue to try and to be understanding, but (4) I love myself too and I know that I need some sort of assurance other than another "trust me." "Fool me once, shame on you ... fool me twice, shame on me" I guess is what I cannot confront anymore. I cannot allow myself to continue to take responsibility for the hurt that you bring to me for the sake of protecting yourself from whatever it is that you are protecting yourself from feeling.
> 
> 
> I hope through the course of the day you are learning to understand my feelings about that.


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> I was completely blown away by this and I feel it's created more anxiety on my part to have to make things better.


 Excuse me? 

Why is it YOUR JOB to work harder to make up for what she won't get treatment for?

Why don't you make an appointment with her therapist? Go see him, by yourself, and tell him YOUR side of it. I'll bet you $10,000 she has not admitted a single thing that SHE does. 

He needs to hear the truth, or at least your side of the truth, so that he can help her. She is lying to him, so she is getting distorted advice.


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> I just wanted to let you know that I've been reading about "regaining trust in a spouse" and a lot of therapists call what I am asking for "restitution." I read on one really great article that when trust has been broken repeatedly a lot of spouses will look for some sort of restitution as assurance that even if trust is broken again, that there is work being done to move forward in life together.


Is there something you're not telling us? What trust have you broken? What, specifically, is she talking about?



njpca said:


> I also think that a lot of my fear and concern is because when this happened before all you did was go to therapy and lie more, and use therapy as a crutch by which you lied and kept secrets and continued to abuse. I want you to get therapy and I want life to get better, but it will never get better if you have to abuse me and hurt me intentionally to do that.


Did you lie to a therapist? About what? What secrets did you keep? In what way - specifically - did you abuse her? Ignore the rest of the paragraph - that's Change Back! behavior.



njpca said:


> Lastly, I wanted to mention that I was thinking about you expressing upsettedness that this is ruining your vacation. For one, I understand that and feel the same way. And I understand that you were looking for validation of that feeling. I have expressed feelings to you very recently along the same lines - my birthday, when I returned from vacation, your contact or lack there of when I was gone - and you said nothing about those. My feelings are just as important as yours. They are not less than yours.


Did you ignore her birthday? She's already been on a vacation? Without you? Did you not contact her while she was gone? Ignore the rest.



njpca said:


> I am sorry but I feel like until you give me some sort of assurance that you are not just going to make all these "changes" and abuse me more to make things better; or rather that you will not intentionally cut me down and tear me apart to have your own personal growth, I just cannot buy into anything else. I already said that I'm just restating it now so that you can know a few things: (1) I am willing to stick around while you continue to personally grow, if and only if (2) you are personally growing along with me. (3) I love you enough to continue to try and to be understanding, but (4) I love myself too and I know that I need some sort of assurance other than another "trust me." "Fool me once, shame on you ... fool me twice, shame on me" I guess is what I cannot confront anymore. I cannot allow myself to continue to take responsibility for the hurt that you bring to me for the sake of protecting yourself from whatever it is that you are protecting yourself from feeling.


So...here it is. You have NOT told her that she harms you. Have you? Because you're a NG, you're too chicken to just go out and say it: you manipulate me and I don't like it.

HAVE you said that to her? Or have you just kept saying "I need to work on myself." or "I need to get better." or "I need to become a better person." Or something else about yourself because you're too scared to be honest with her?


----------



## njpca

She has said before that there have been instances where I have emotionally abused her. To the best of what I researched before, I believe that comes from the passive aggressive behavior I have exhibited before. I basically have bottled up my feelings in the past on things and dealt with things the way they were and it has come out in the uber assertive, yelling screaming tantrums and its built up the NG resentment that I have had.

Therefore, I know she is seeing this new NMMNG approach as just another form of that emotional abuse.

I have posted many times in the past couple years so there plenty more that I have written, but I can enlighten for any more specifics


----------



## turnera

Thor is right in that if she was abused then she needs to get direct help for it. Your NG routine is hurting her not helping her because you carry her own weight for her.

Call her IC immediately. Tell him what you have learned today and tell him that you need to see him with her. That you and she are heading for a cliff and that, because of her past abuse, you both need to see him immediately. Together.


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> She has said before that there have been instances where I have emotionally abused her. To the best of what I researched before, I believe that comes from the passive aggressive behavior I have exhibited before. I basically have bottled up my feelings in the past on things and dealt with things the way they were and it has come out in the uber assertive, yelling screaming tantrums and its built up the NG resentment that I have had.


So...you yelled at her, right? Is that it? How many times was it? Was it continuous? Was it manipulative? Did you say what you needed to say (yell) and then go back to your NG routine? Specifics, please.


----------



## njpca

turnera said:


> Is there something you're not telling us? What trust have you broken? What, specifically, is she talking about?
> 
> Did you lie to a therapist? About what? What secrets did you keep? In what way - specifically - did you abuse her? Ignore the rest of the paragraph - that's Change Back! behavior.
> 
> Did you ignore her birthday? She's already been on a vacation? Without you? Did you not contact her while she was gone? Ignore the rest.


When she says about breaking trust, she is talking about all the little things that have happened in my past posting and threads:

-I once talked to my parents about the costs of having to move because I was concerned about taking money out of my retirement. She blew up over that.

-I have tried to create boundaries in my relationship with family and friends and it's been a difficult process, so she sees that as me breaking the trust when I have failed. It got to the point where I stopped talking to my family and ignored all my friends and shut down my FB account. I just couldn't take it anymore.

-When we were separated over a year ago, I went to see a friend that she did not like because I didn't have anyone to talk to about my problems. I didn't tell her and then she found out and blew up over that and lost my trust.

-I had financial problems dealing with being newly married and taking on the responsibilities of these children. I tried to handle it on my own but it got out of control so my wife had to take the reins and again try to find ways to pay off all the debt. She now handles all the finances and I give her my paycheck.

-I felt pressured into going out to visit her during her vacation. I finally just agreed but was upset over spending the money so I then I changed my mind. After a big fight, I then decided to to do it, but I guess she was so upset over the fact that I made a huge deal over it.

-More recently, I forgot to tell her that I gotten a very slight raise in my pay with new tax year (it was like $12), so I was holding onto that money and just giving her the amount we had budgeted for and she got really really angry over that.

-And that whole friend email I posted about earlier. Like I said, I didn't at first say anything until she confronted me, so she saw the omission as a form of lying.

-I think the therapy thing was when I went on my own the first time and talked about losing friends, the therapist told me to write a letter to them to quell my fears over having lost them no matter what.

They responded in real positive ways and that's where the meeting up occurred why we were separated.

My wife saw this as betrayal in the fact that the therapist told me I should contact them.

-I did not ignore her birthday, however I am sure there were ways that she felt it was not the true thing that she wanted.

Before she left on her vacation, she kept dropping hints on how it was going to be a big deal for her and that I do something about it.

I decided that I was going to get a big cruise vacation for both of us. But when she got back, she said that I didn't listen to her and that she just wanted a big party with all her friends and something more planned. She thought I was just putting together something at the last minute, so I was so defeated and hurt that I canceled the vacation and since then we haven't done anything.

Also I was at a busy time at work, so I was working late and working extra days, which she saw as a rejection that I was ignoring her when she got back from her vacation. 

So yes, she went on vacation without me, but I did fly out for a couple days. I probably done a better job calling her more often, I just got real tied up with work and didn't set a proper boundary to take the time and call.


----------



## njpca

turnera said:


> So...you yelled at her, right? Is that it? How many times was it? Was it continuous? Was it manipulative? Did you say what you needed to say (yell) and then go back to your NG routine? Specifics, please.


Yes, I am pretty sure it has come out in instances that you describe. And definetely I go back to NG routine later.

I don't think it has been continuous but it has gotten out on multiple occassions, sometimes over stupid things that I hold onto so badly.

Like one, she wanted to throw out a book that she thought was inappropriate and I didn't think that was necessary. It turned into a big fight and I went into the role, then finally when I couldn't take it anymore I just walked away and bottled it up again.


----------



## njpca

turnera said:


> Thor is right in that if she was abused then she needs to get direct help for it. Your NG routine is hurting her not helping her because you carry her own weight for her.
> 
> Call her IC immediately. Tell him what you have learned today and tell him that you need to see him with her. That you and she are heading for a cliff and that, because of her past abuse, you both need to see him immediately. Together.


Do you think this is wise that I just call him up on my own accord? I think she would be pretty offended that I just violated her space by doing such a thing


----------



## Conrad

njpca said:


> Do you think this is wise that I just call him up on my own accord? I think she would be pretty offended that I just violated her space by doing such a thing


Sounds like you're still afraid of her reactions.


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> -I once talked to my parents about the costs of having to move because I was concerned about taking money out of my retirement. She blew up over that.


So...you're not allowed to talk to your parents? Or you're _allowed_ to talk to your parents, as long as you never say a disparaging word against her?



njpca said:


> -I have tried to create boundaries in my relationship with family and friends and it's been a difficult process, so she sees that as me breaking the trust when I have failed. It got to the point where I stopped talking to my family and ignored all my friends and shut down my FB account. I just couldn't take it anymore.


First, she can feel trust-broken by you all she wants; all YOU can do is try. But I have to ask: why did you have to create boundaries? Was it because she didn't want your mom around or she didn't want you to be gone one night a month to visit your cousin or some such? If that's the case, then you were doing your NG routine by giving up your family and friends JUST TO SHUT HER UP. Is that the way you want to live your life? Tell her that you will no longer give up your family/friends just because she doesn't like them/doesn't want you away from her/doesn't want to lose control. SHE doesn't have to go with you, but you will no longer be giving them up. She can namecall you all she wants, and 'accuse' you of breaking trust, but those are just words, and you KNOW that having family and friends in your life is too important to give it up.



njpca said:


> -When we were separated over a year ago, I went to see a friend that she did not like because I didn't have anyone to talk to about my problems. I didn't tell her and then she found out and blew up over that and lost my trust.


That was an EXCUSE. That was MANIPULATION. That was her seeing that she hadn't beaten you down sufficiently to make you cower in the house until she honored you with her presence again, so she blamed YOU. And it worked.



njpca said:


> -I had financial problems dealing with being newly married and taking on the responsibilities of these children. I tried to handle it on my own but it got out of control so my wife had to take the reins and again try to find ways to pay off all the debt. She now handles all the finances and I give her my paycheck.


Did YOU spend all the money? I doubt it. It was just one more instance of her BLAMING IT ALL ON YOU and you ACCEPTING THE BLAME.



njpca said:


> -I felt pressured into going out to visit her during her vacation. I finally just agreed but was upset over spending the money so I then I changed my mind. After a big fight, I then decided to to do it, but I guess she was so upset over the fact that I made a huge deal over it.


So...because you were a NG but your brain told you not to do something but then you eventually caved and did what she wanted...she BLAMED YOU for not just agreeing with her off the bat? In other words, you are not allowed to have your own brain.



njpca said:


> -More recently, I forgot to tell her that I gotten a very slight raise in my pay with new tax year (it was like $12), so I was holding onto that money and just giving her the amount we had budgeted for and she got really really angry over that.


You realize, right, that what you are describing in your own actions is AN ABUSE VICTIM?

You, my friend, are being abused.



njpca said:


> They responded in real positive ways and that's where the meeting up occurred why we were separated. My wife saw this as betrayal in the fact that the therapist told me I should contact them.


Wrong. Your wife saw you acting independently, saw you regaining your friends (i.e. leaving her) and it SCARED HER. So she came down on you big time until you caved again and were once more under her thumb.



njpca said:


> -I did not ignore her birthday, however I am sure there were ways that she felt it was not the true thing that she wanted.


There's a thread at marriageadvocates.com by a poster called holdingontoit, that you REALLY need to read. 



njpca said:


> Also I was at a busy time at work, so I was working late and working extra days, which she saw as a rejection that I was ignoring her when she got back from her vacation.


In other words, she expects you to stroke her ego continuously, repeatedly, and with GRAND FLAIR and, if you don't, you are a FAILURE. About right?



njpca said:


> So yes, she went on vacation without me, but I did fly out for a couple days. I probably done a better job calling her more often, I just got real tied up with work and *didn't set a proper boundary* to take the time and call.


:rofl: OH, you can talk about boundaries to make HER feel good, but you can't set boundaries for YOURSELF? That is too much!

Seriously, njp, if you were a female and she were a male, we would all be telling you to leave your abusive husband. You are being abused. Everything you describe are the steps and motiviations of an abuser. Do some research.


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> Yes, I am pretty sure it has come out in instances that you describe. And definetely I go back to NG routine later.
> 
> I don't think it has been continuous but it has gotten out on multiple occassions, sometimes over stupid things that I hold onto so badly.
> 
> Like one, she wanted to throw out a book that she thought was inappropriate and I didn't think that was necessary. It turned into a big fight and I went into the role, then finally when I couldn't take it anymore I just walked away and bottled it up again.


 That is not even close to being abusive. Stop letting her guilt you.


----------



## turnera

njpca said:


> Do you think this is wise that I just call him up on my own accord? I think she would be pretty offended that I just violated her space by doing such a thing


 My brother was seeing a therapist once and he started talking suicide. So I called his therapist and warned her. He was furious at me. 

But he was alive.

Don't tell her, then. Just call him and make your own appointment. In fact, do that first. And tell him what I said about her abusing you, and email him this thread ahead of your appointment.


----------



## turnera

(Sorry, I can't figure out how to fix the formatting)
This is more about men on women, but much of it applies.

The aim of emotional abuse is to chip away at your feelings of self-worth and independence. If you’re the victim of emotional abuse, you may feel that there is no way out of the relationship or that without your abusive partner you have nothing. Emotional abuse includes _verbal abuse _such as yelling, name-calling, blaming, and shaming. Isolation, intimidation, and controlling behavior also fall under emotional abuse. 


Remember, an abuser’s goal is to control you, and he or she will frequently use money to do so_._ Economic or financial abuse includes:

Rigidly controlling your finances.
Withholding money or credit cards.
Making you account for every penny you spend.
Withholding basic necessities (food, clothes, medications, shelter).

Restricting you to an allowance.
Preventing you from working or choosing your own career.
Sabotaging your job (making you miss work, calling constantly).
Stealing from you or taking your money.

*Abusers use a variety of tactics to manipulate you and exert their power:*
*Dominance* – Abusive individuals need to feel in charge of the relationship. They will make decisions for you and the family, tell you what to do, and expect you to obey without question. Your abuser may treat you like a servant, child, or even as his or her possession.
*Humiliation* – An abuser will do everything he or she can to make you feel bad about yourself or defective in some way. After all, if you believe you're worthless and that no one else will want you, you're less likely to leave. Insults, name-calling, shaming, and public put-downs are all weapons of abuse designed to erode your self-esteem and make you feel powerless.
*Isolation* – In order to increase your dependence on him or her, an abusive partner will cut you off from the outside world. He or she may keep you from seeing family or friends, or even prevent you from going to work or school. You may have to ask permission to do anything, go anywhere, or see anyone.
*Threats* – Abusers commonly use threats to keep their partners from leaving or to scare them into dropping charges. Your abuser may threaten to hurt or kill you, your children, other family members, or even pets. He or she may also threaten to commit suicide, file false charges against you, or report you to child services.
*Intimidation* – Your abuser may use a variety of intimidation tactics designed to scare you into submission. Such tactics include making threatening looks or gestures, smashing things in front of you, destroying property, hurting your pets, or putting weapons on display. The clear message is that if you don't obey, there will be violent consequences.
*Denial and blame* – Abusers are very good at making excuses for the inexcusable. They will blame their abusive and violent behavior on a bad childhood, a bad day, and even on the victims of their abuse. Your abusive partner may minimize the abuse or deny that it occurred. He or she will commonly shift the responsibility on to you: Somehow, his or her violent and abusive behavior is your fault.
Domestic Violence and Abuse: Signs of Abuse and Abusive Relationships


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## turnera

More:
_*10 Signs Your Girlfriend or Wife is an Emotional Bully*

Does your girlfriend or wife yell, scream, and swear at you? Do you feel like you can’t talk to anyone about your relationship because they just wouldn’t understand? Is your relationship making you feel like you’re slowly going crazy?_
If so, you’re probably involved with a woman who is an emotionally abusive bully. *Most men don’t want to admit that they’re in an abusive relationship. They describe the relationship and their girlfriend/wife using other terms like crazy, emotional, controlling, bossy, domineering, constant conflict, or volatile*. If you use words like this to describe your relationship, odds are you’re being emotionally abused.
Do you recognize any of the following behaviors?
*1) Bullying. *_If she doesn’t get her way, there’s hell to pay. _She wants to control you and resorts to emotional intimidation to do it. She uses verbal assaults and threats in order to get you to do what she wants. It makes her feel powerful to make you feel bad. People with a *Narcissistic personality* are often bullies.
_Result: _You lose your self-respect and feel outnumbered, sad, and alone. You develop a case of *Stockholm Syndrome*, in which you identify with the aggressor and actually defend her behavior to others.
*2) Unreasonable expectations. *No matter how hard you try and how much you give, *it’s never enough.* She expects you to drop whatever you’re doing and attend to her needs. No matter the inconvenience, she comes first. She has an endless list of demands that no one mere mortal could ever fulfill.
Common complaints include: _You’re not romantic enough, you don’t spend enough time with me, you’re not sensitive enough, you’re not smart enough to figure out my needs, you’re not making enough money, you’re not FILL IN THE BLANK enough_. Basically, you’re not enough, because there’s no pleasing this woman. *No one will ever be enough for her, so don’t take it to heart.*
_Result: _You’re constantly criticized because you’re not able to meet her needs and experience a sense of *learned helplessness*. You feel powerless and defeated because she puts you in no-win situations.
*3) Verbal attacks.*This is self-explanatory. She employs schoolyard name calling, *pathologizing* (e.g., *armed with a superficial knowledge of psychology she uses diagnostic terms like labile, paranoid, narcissistic, etc. for a 50-cent version of name calling*), criticizing, threatening, screaming, yelling, swearing, sarcasm, humiliation, exaggerating your flaws, and making fun of you in front of others, including your children and other people she’s not intimidated by. *Verbal assault is another form of bullying*, and bullies only act like this in front of those whom they don’t fear or people who let them get away with their bad behavior.
_Result:_ Your self-confidence and sense of self-worth all but disappear. You may even begin to believe the horrible things she says to you.
*4) Gaslighting. *_“I didn’t do that. I didn’t say that. I don’t know what you’re talking about. It wasn’t that bad. You’re imagining things. Stop making things up.” _If the woman you’re involved with is prone to *Borderline or Narcissistic rage episodes*, in which she spirals into outer orbit, she may very well not remember things she’s said and done. However, don’t doubt your perception and memory of events. They happened and they are that bad.
_Result: _Her gaslighting behavior may cause you to doubt your own sanity. It’s crazy-making behavior that leaves you feeling confused, bewildered, and helpless.
*5) Unpredictable responses. *_Round and round and round she goes. Where she’ll stop, nobody knows. _She reacts differently to you on different days or at different times. For example, on Monday, it’s ok for you to Blackberry work email in front of her. On Wednesday, the same behavior is _“disrespectful, insensitive, you don’t love me, you’re a self-important jerk, you’re a workaholic.”_ By Friday, it could be okay for you to Blackberry again.
*Telling you one day that something’s alright and the next day that it’s not is emotionally abusive behavior.* It’s like walking through a landmine in which the mines shift location.
_Result: _You’re constantly on edge, walking on eggshells, and waiting for the other shoe to drop. *This is a trauma response. You’re being traumatized by her behavior*. Because you can’t predict her responses, you become hypervigilant to any change in her mood or potential outburst, which leaves you in a perpetual state of anxiety and possibly fear. It’s a healthy sign to be afraid of this behavior. It’s scary. Don’t feel ashamed to admit it.
*6) Constant Chaos. *She’s addicted to conflict. She gets a charge from the adrenaline and drama. She may deliberately start arguments and conflict as a way to avoid intimacy, to avoid being called on her bull****, to avoid feeling inferior or, bewilderingly, as an attempt to avoid being abandoned. She may also pick fights to keep you engaged or as a way to get you to react to her with hostility, so that she can accuse _you _of being abusive and _she_ can play the victim. This maneuver is a defense mechanism called *projective identification*_. _
_Result: _*You become emotionally punch drunk*. You’re left feeling dazed and confused, not knowing which end is up. This is highly stressful because it also requires you to be hypervigilant and in a constant state of defense for incoming attacks.
*7) Emotional Blackmail. *She threatens to abandon you, to end the relationship, or give you the cold shoulder if you don’t play by her rules. She plays on your fears, vulnerabilities, weaknesses, shame, values, sympathy, compassion, and other “buttons” to control you and get what she wants.
_Result: _You feel manipulated, used, and controlled.
*8 Rejection. *She ignores you, won’t look at you when you’re in the same room, gives you the cold shoulder, withholds affection, withholds sex, declines or puts down your ideas, invitations, suggestions, and pushes you away when you try to be close. *After she pushes you as hard and as far away as she can, she’ll try to be affectionate with you. You’re still hurting from her previous rebuff or attack and don’t respond. Then she accuses you of being cold and rejecting, *which she’ll use as an excuse to push you away again in the future.
_Result: _You feel undesirable, unwanted, and unlovable. You believe no one else would want you and cling to this abusive woman, grateful for whatever scraps of infrequent affection she shows you.
*9) Withholding affection and sex. *This is another form of rejection and emotional blackmail. It’s not just about sex, *it’s about withholding physical, psychological, and emotional nurturing*. It includes a lack of interest in what’s important to you–your job, family, friends, hobbies, activities–and being uninvolved, emotionally detached or shut down with you.
_Result: _You have a transactional relationship in which you have to perform tasks, buy her things, “be nice to her,” or give into her demands in order to receive love and affection from her. You don’t feel loved and appreciated for who you are, but for what you do for her or buy her.
*10) Isolating. *She demands or acts in ways that cause you to distance yourself from your family, friends, or anyone that would be concerned for your well-being or a source of support. This typically involves *verbally trashing your friends and family, being overtly hostile to your family and friends, or acting out and starting arguments in front of others to make it as unpleasant as possible for them to be around the two of you*.
_Result: _This makes you completely dependent upon her. She takes away your outside sources of support and/or controls the amount of interaction you have with them. *You’re left feeling trapped and alone, afraid to tell anyone what really goes on in your relationship because you don’t think they’ll believe you*.
*You don’t have to accept emotional abuse in your relationship.* You can get help or you can end it. *Most emotionally abusive women don’t want help. They don’t think they need it. They are the professional victims, bullies, narcissists, and borderlines*. They’re abusive personality types and don’t know any other way to act in relationships.
Life is too short to spend one more second in this kind of relationship. If your partner won’t admit she has a problem and agree to get help, _real help_, then it’s in your best interest to get support, get out, and stay out

10 Signs Your Girlfriend or Wife is an Emotional Bully « A Shrink for Men


----------



## njpca

I think the most difficult thing in all of this, is that she constantly states that I am the emotional abuser and uses the same things in this list to describe that to me in my behaviors. It leaves to believe that I am the reason for all our problems.

I have start scheduling my own therapy appointment and hopefully that will start to shed some light on things.

This is all very difficult to take in which is why I wonder if I need to stop the NMMNG approach until I can properly evaluate the situation more fully.

Thoughts?


----------



## Deejo

njpca said:


> This is all very difficult to take in which is why I wonder if I need to stop the NMMNG approach until I can properly evaluate the situation more fully.
> 
> Thoughts?


I think going to therapy is a very wise choice. I do indeed also agree that if you are unclear on, or uncomfortable with the NMMNG strategies, then you shouldnt be trying to force them ... especially if how your wife responds is increasing your anxiety.


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## Thor

Words can have very very different definitions for the sex abuse//assault survivor. "Trust" doesn't mean what you might think. Start a new mode of discussion. Don't defend or explain yourself. Instead listen and question. Ask her specific questions probing deeper.

"You felt I violated trust when I talked to Joe?"

"What do you mean by violated trust?"

"What does trust mean or look like to you?"

The goal is to learn what and how she thinks. I believe you are going to be shocked and amazed at her answers if you approach conversations this way. 

Also, yes you are an emotional abuse victim. You have a lot of research to do on the effects of sex assaul/aabuse. Start reading about how it affects women and how it affects marriages.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

njpca said:


> I think the most difficult thing in all of this, is that she constantly states that I am the emotional abuser and uses the same things in this list to describe that to me in my behaviors. It leaves to believe that I am the reason for all our problems.
> 
> I have start scheduling my own therapy appointment and hopefully that will start to shed some light on things.
> 
> This is all very difficult to take in which is why I wonder if I need to stop the NMMNG approach until I can properly evaluate the situation more fully.
> 
> Thoughts?


Abusers will almost always blame the victim. The difference is that she can't come up with real, specific examples. Just a feeling. Given her past, she probably never lets her go to the logic side - all about feelings to her. But feelings aren't necessarily reality. Clearly she is a basketcase and is miserable. But does that make it your fault?

If you are having this much trouble standing up for yourself, I won't tell you to continue your NMMNG homework WITH her; I will tell you to do it on your own. When you are around her, don't do anything to project yourself, but for all that's holy, DON'T GO BACKWARD AND GIVE IN. 

Ok? Can you do that? You don't have to move forward until you're feeling stronger, but please don't do what I know you feel like doing - beg her to forgive you and promise her everything. You have come too far.


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## njpca

Just an interesting update:

My wife borrowed my car the other day because she wanted to take it to a specific place for my smog check. I forgot to take out the audio cds of the book and she discovered them and started listening to them.

When I got home, I got a whole mouthful on how I can be such a jerk to follow such a plan. She believes that the book is all about being machismo and self centered, that it encourages men to do circle jerks with one another and being narcisstic and in no way improves relationships with your significant other.

She doesn't believe any of the stories that the author tells are true, and questions his credentials because she read somewhere that he tells people he has a Phd that he got from some women's college in Texas when he really doesn't.

I explained to her that I was just trying to do something that can improve our relationship and I said I wasn't sure if it was going to be successful but thought I should at least try. I then offered if there is a book she thought I should read, I would gladly try that. She obviously didn't have an answer, but just found another way to cut me down and deepen her mistrust in the marriage.

So kinda of funny but yet another frustrating hurdle in my personal growth. Everyone was right about telling her. I would have been damned anyway from the start if I had mentioned that I was reading it. 

Does anybody know anything to the claims she gave over the author's experience?


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## Deejo

njpca said:


> Does anybody know anything to the claims she gave over the author's experience?


Doesn't mean a blessed thing even if every word were true.


----------



## AFEH

Write out 1,000 times …

_I do these things for me and for me alone. These things are mine, they belong to me, I own them 100 percent._

See if it sinks in. And read up about boundaries because you sure as heck need to learn how to protect yourself from such a very aggressive woman.


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## SoWhat

Great thread!

We were getting ready for a fancy date last weekend, when I drove out to visit her (she's a few hundred miles away for the summer).

I came into her room wearing slacks and a dress shirt. She said "Oh, you're getting all dressed up...I guess I'll change out of this more casual dress I was going to wear..." I said "Oh, no, I'll change." Etc. 

And then it sort of spiraled out of control, as she got testier and testier out of absolutely nowhere. Lots of subtle insults aimed at me and so forth.

Finally, I said "I'm not going to argue over something as silly as this. You can be as angry as you want, but I'm withdrawing from the discussion. That's the plan from here on out: if I feel disrespected, I will disengage and we can talk again when you calm down." 

Now, for a while now, my way of coping with her possibly BPD-related anger has been to get defensive and plead-y. I think this surprised the crap out of her. There was much gnashing of teeth for about 20 minutes.

And then... she was more into me than she's been in a very, very long time. And like that for the rest of the weekend.


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## MrHappy

SoWhat said:


> I came into her room wearing slacks and a dress shirt. She said "Oh, you're getting all dressed up...I guess I'll change out of this more casual dress I was going to wear..." I said "Oh, no, I'll change." Etc.


That was you error. This is similar to the "Where do you want to eat.." merry go round. Your the alpha, let her conform. She said she would change, let her. She might have liked you dressed up. Assume what your doing is correct unless someone objects. You can then privately decide for yourself if you were wrong or right. The spot I want to eat is where we are going unless she has an objection then you can re-evaluate. I'm surprised home many times she doesn't object.


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## SoWhat

Thanks, MrHappy. 
You're very right!


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## joshbjoshb

Thank you tuernera for posting those abusive material. It made me think that my wife is SLIGHTLY - really, not that bad but still slightly abusive.

No more mr. nice guy helps me greatly! More and more I do not take any abuse from her.

Funny. Her friend just filed for divorce after 10 years of being married to a physically abusive husband. I told her that in a way, if she was a strong woman, the first time she got hit she should have said "you touch me one more time and I call police and you get the hell out of here." Of course instead she blamed herself for not making sure he is always happy.

As a nice guy, we are all so "abusive enablers". We let our wives step on us, yell, curse, accuse, and we just take it all. We shouldn't! 

I see much improvement in my own marriage, but as I wrote few times, I don't know if I'd be fully able to love her till she realize that she has that issue.


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## njpca

AFEH said:


> And read up about boundaries because you sure as heck need to learn how to protect yourself from such a very aggressive woman.


The problem is her idea of boundaries is us (her and I) against everyone else. There is not supposed to boundaries between just the two of us. Enacting them, to her means I am against her and her feelings.

There is no other way to get it through her head and I have all but given up hope that she will ever think differently


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## Lon

I did a niceguy thing today that I wish I'd have done differently, my son and I were at the park this afternoon, it was busy, he was off playing by himself running around on the other side and I was watching him pretty much the entire time... but I couldn't see him every second...

then a lady walked up with her son who looked confused, and tells me "your son hit mine in the face"

without even thinking about it I was apologizing and said I'd go get him, and I did and I asked him if he hit the other boy, he said he got in the way and they bumped, so it was most certainly an accident, your typical run-of-the-mill playground stuff. But the lady was standing there waiting for ME to get my son to apologize, which he did in a really insincere manner so I made him do a better job under the threat of leaving the playground. She thanked me and looked irritated that he didn't apologize better.

Wow, a minute or so after I was just thinking, why would I act that way? And what am I teaching my son, that when faced with conflict back down and automatically give in to the others request? For all I know it was her son that deliberately bumped into mine, I didn't see it, and I certainly didn't see her confront my son at the time, he was only out of my eyesight for a second here and there not enough for her to fix the problem herself.

Then I thought to myself, what a cow she was being, her son was the same age or maybe only a little younger, she was just being a way overprotective parent who disapproved of my parenting without even lifting a finger to know my parenting style in the first place, but then I showed her that basically I was of lesser significance. If I could have that moment back I would like to have said to her son, "Oh well let's go find him, maybe he would like to have a playmate to run with for a bit" then let the two kids actually get to know play together for awhile.


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## DDC

Deejo said:


> *And I will try to make my position clear ...
> I don't believe the primary goal of 'Manning Up' is to give you a better marriage.
> 
> The primary goal is to make you a better man ... a man more comfortable with himself, and how he conducts his life.
> A consequence of which, is that you may have a better marriage. Another consequence may be that you recognize you have a lousy marriage, and choose to get the hell out.
> 
> It isn't about what your wife 'likes'. Nor is it about alienating your wife. She indeed is part of your journey ... but she doesn't share or experience the journey as you will.*


Yes, yes, and yes. Any man who feels he might need this book should play close attention to the words above. Spot on.


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## DDC

Lon said:


> I did a niceguy thing today that I wish I'd have done differently, my son and I were at the park this afternoon, it was busy, he was off playing by himself running around on the other side and I was watching him pretty much the entire time... but I couldn't see him every second...
> 
> then a lady walked up with her son who looked confused, and tells me "your son hit mine in the face"
> 
> without even thinking about it I was apologizing and said I'd go get him, and I did and I asked him if he hit the other boy, he said he got in the way and they bumped, so it was most certainly an accident, your typical run-of-the-mill playground stuff. But the lady was standing there waiting for ME to get my son to apologize, which he did in a really insincere manner so I made him do a better job under the threat of leaving the playground. She thanked me and looked irritated that he didn't apologize better.
> 
> Wow, a minute or so after I was just thinking, why would I act that way? And what am I teaching my son, that when faced with conflict back down and automatically give in to the others request? For all I know it was her son that deliberately bumped into mine, I didn't see it, and I certainly didn't see her confront my son at the time, he was only out of my eyesight for a second here and there not enough for her to fix the problem herself.
> 
> Then I thought to myself, what a cow she was being, her son was the same age or maybe only a little younger, she was just being a way overprotective parent who disapproved of my parenting without even lifting a finger to know my parenting style in the first place, but then I showed her that basically I was of lesser significance. If I could have that moment back I would like to have said to her son, "Oh well let's go find him, maybe he would like to have a playmate to run with for a bit" then let the two kids actually get to know play together for awhile.


Lon, your story and where you're from reminds me of the old joke, "How do you make a Canadian apologize? Step on his toe."

I agree with your analysis of the story. Part of teaching your son to be a man is teaching him how to stand up for himself. Assuming that he is in the wrong and a strangers son is in the right was a mistake.


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## AFEH

Lon said:


> I did a niceguy thing today that I wish I'd have done differently, my son and I were at the park this afternoon, it was busy, he was off playing by himself running around on the other side and I was watching him pretty much the entire time... but I couldn't see him every second...
> 
> then a lady walked up with her son who looked confused, and tells me "your son hit mine in the face"
> 
> without even thinking about it I was apologizing and said I'd go get him, and I did and I asked him if he hit the other boy, he said he got in the way and they bumped, so it was most certainly an accident, your typical run-of-the-mill playground stuff. But the lady was standing there waiting for ME to get my son to apologize, which he did in a really insincere manner so I made him do a better job under the threat of leaving the playground. She thanked me and looked irritated that he didn't apologize better.
> 
> Wow, a minute or so after I was just thinking, why would I act that way? And what am I teaching my son, that when faced with conflict back down and automatically give in to the others request? For all I know it was her son that deliberately bumped into mine, I didn't see it, and I certainly didn't see her confront my son at the time, he was only out of my eyesight for a second here and there not enough for her to fix the problem herself.
> 
> Then I thought to myself, what a cow she was being, her son was the same age or maybe only a little younger, she was just being a way overprotective parent who disapproved of my parenting without even lifting a finger to know my parenting style in the first place, but then I showed her that basically I was of lesser significance. If I could have that moment back I would like to have said to her son, "Oh well let's go find him, maybe he would like to have a playmate to run with for a bit" then let the two kids actually get to know play together for awhile.


It was your ego that responded in a knee jerk reaction (without thought) to the situation. It was you being your ego, or your ego being you. We can get so firmly and blindly attached to our ego. Our ego contains all of our habitual behaviours. And yours just responded habitually.

Breaking those old habits is what causes us to change. How we actually change is to break old, unhealthy habits and develop new, healthy ones.

You became aware of your old habitual ways after the event was concluded, in hindsight. And for sure hindsight has 20/20 vision! But you need that 20/20 vision at the time the event happens, not after its concluded. With hindsight you were AWARE that you were just stuck in your old, unhealthy ways. You need to be AWARE “In the Moment” so you can observe your ego in action and tell it to stop and take another path to solve the problem.

For example, I’m massive on justice/injustice. No way would I have made any judgements, conclusions without taking my son aside in private and asking him what happened. I would take his word and make my judgements and actions from that.

It’s good that you are now aware of your behaviour and it’s even better that you want to change it. If you haven’t yet read Awareness by Anthony de Mello you really should. He will teach you ways of being Aware in the Moment so you can see yourself (your ego) in action and that just by observing your ego’s behaviour that old, well ensconced, concrete and habitual behaviour of yours will change for the better.


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## AFEH

Lon, a lot of our behaviour is “impulse driven”. Something happens, we respond to it impulsively and in habitual ways. It’s impulse/habitual response, impulse/habitual response, impulse/habitual response etc. etc. It’s how we spend a great part of our days and therefore our weeks, months, years ….. and life! Our whole life is one set of impulses and responses to them. That is, habitual.

We want to change? Then we need to be aware of “when” an impulse arises. Take a smoker for example. Gets the impulse for a smoke, habitually lights a cigarette up in response to the impulse. The vast majority of smokers aren’t even aware of their “impulse”, they just light up in an automated, robotic way. That’s a habit.

To break the habit we must become aware of the impulse that triggers it. To do that we must be truly “aware” of what’s going on in our mind. Then once we see/feel the impulse rising, we can respond to it in a different way … and break the habit.


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## Lon

AFEH, well at first my awareness wasn't there, but I actually was becoming more aware of my impulses as it played out, starting when I was walking over to my son deciding how I would approach this. By the end, before the whole event was concluded I was visibly frustrated at my own inability to change my course of action after I could see how I was handling it all wrong.


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## AFEH

Lon said:


> AFEH, well at first my awareness wasn't there, but I actually was becoming more aware of my impulses as it played out, starting when I was walking over to my son deciding how I would approach this. By the end, before the whole event was concluded I was visibly frustrated at my own inability to change my course of action after I could see how I was handling it all wrong.


You are waking up, coming out of your slumber. It takes a while but you sure are making progress. Celebrate that progress, do something a little special for yourself. For example if you like coffee and cake, have coffee and cake!

You will get better and better at being aware and just by being aware change will come. Buy the book and learn from the expert, the guru, he will help you on your way as he has others.


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## Lon

Well feel like I've been waking up fow awhile now, sleeping in for too long, guess I'm not a morning person in regards to this either. I will check out the book you are suggesting.


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## turnera

njpca said:


> The problem is her idea of boundaries is us (her and I) against everyone else. There is not supposed to boundaries between just the two of us. Enacting them, to her means I am against her and her feelings.
> 
> There is no other way to get it through her head and I have all but given up hope that she will ever think differently


Not your job to get anything through her head. Just to protect yourself from abuse and pain. No matter WHO it comes from. Stop worrying about whether she gets anything - lead, and let her follow.


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## Calebjkd

This group still active?


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## BookOfJob

Yes. Post a question and someone will answer.

Not sure why this topic is kinda off everyone's the radar screen. Not a lot of people having this kinda problem maybe?


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## ChargingCharlie

I have a password protected copy on my office server - can be accessed from home but she doesn't know how to do that. 

All I'll say is that I wish I would have read this before our kids came along - she got all stressed out and *****y and I was too much the nice guy, and I'm still feeling the effects of this several years later.


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## JoJoRider8

Hi, I am a female married to a man who I suspect suffers from NG syndrome. So we have been together 4 years, married for 1. I am early 40s, he is mid 40s. He is known as, and truly is, a wonderful guy -- very hard working, polite, always doing nice things, smart, respectful. People love him including me. However as we get deeper into our relationship I am continuously unfulfilled and often unhappy. I have been guilty of nagging a bit and being over critical about our home (bc I am a neat freak). I really don't think that much though. I think he is hyper sensitive to any sort of disapproval or criticism. One time he went through the house pointing out "all the things" I complain about (ie dresser not shut, clothes on floor, pictures hung too high, etc etc). The thing is... most of those things I had NEVER said a word about. I think he just imagined them, or imagined I was secretly irritated by them. I had complained about maybe 2 of the 10 things he listed. So I read the book, and I think he is villainizing me and victimizing himself. There was a period of time I was on Chantax and it made me very mean for about 3 months. I have apologized and made conscious steps to not revert to those behaviors. I think he is just so sensitive to failure or criticism or not being perceived as wonderful, to the point I cant ever have a legitimate thought contrary to him. Mostly though I am very laid back and respectful to him. I compliment him all the time, I thank him when he does things for me. I feel like I am constantly having to provide him validation for his fragile ego. 

What else? He AVOIDS everything. He NEVER asks me "whats wrong" if I am moody or upset. EVER. Its like he is afraid of the answer. I wish he would reach out to me when I'm upset and try to fix things, not just avoid and rugsweep. Likewise, if hei s upset, he bottles everything up, minimizing his needs, and then explodes in rage, usually triggered by me calmly expressing legitimate disappointment or dissatisfaction over something:

Example - he did not get my sons' trampoline assembled in time before we went out of town for xmas as he had said he would; I simply told him I was a little disappointed he hadn't done it, but that I wasn't mad. He flew into a rage, started throwing the trampoline parts around and trying to frantically assemble it in the 20 min before my son would arrive)

Example -- I have numerous times expressed that I would like him to keep better track of his business expenses from a rental property, as we have no record of whether we are making money, losing money etc and no budget on costs etc. The last time I brought it up, he flew into a rage. Took all his paper work and threw it into the guest room, saying he needed space to do his paperwork and that he'd have it done in a week. That was 4 mo ago and it hasn't been touched

Another problem -- Not enough intimacy. I feel like he doesn't initiate sex as much as Id like. I want him to be excited and attracted to me and in love with me, and passionate like he was the first year or 2 we were together. I feel like he has so much disdain and resentment for me. He avoids intimacy by working to the point of exhaustion, or blowing up, or just shutting off like a mute and creating awkwardness. We do have sex about 1 x week that is very good. But I feel like the majority of time I'm like a roommate/sister to him -- I don't feel any lust or attraction or desire from him, other than 1 x week when we are intimate.

He owns the book NMMNG. Had it before I met him. Not sure if he has read it. I really feel I have looked at my behaviours and tried to improve them to make our relationship back where it used to be, but I feel like I'm doing all the work. 

How do I incite his interest in me again? How do I get him to stop villainizing me?


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## turnera

By going to therapy by yourself and learning how to react to him in a way that no longer allows him to treat you that way.

You can't change another person.

You can only change yourself.


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## JoJoRider8

Thanks. I appreciate that. 

I guess what I am also looking for here is insight from actual males as to what their wives do/don't do that inspire desire and feelings of love in them?? Esp after the honeymoon phase is over. Can any men relate to losing desire for their spouse when they feel she nags or criticizes.

As well as fellow "NG"s who can share how they prefer to be addressed with issues/criticisms if they have difficulty receiving such comments. I mean, how do a navigate the line between "not nagging" and "minimizing my wants and needs to nothing". At one extreme you have nagging and cricisizing. At the other extreme you have walking on eggshells so much that I am in essence becoming a "Nice girl" Where does the happy medium lie?

Thanks again


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## Idun

I would recommend "How To Improve Your Marriage Without Talking about it". It has helped me a LOT in understanding how men think. Also "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" (talks about their emotional needs, the things that trigger them to bad behaviour, the things that motivate them). BOTH those books I would read first, read PRIVATELY, and NOT tell him about. Those 2 books are my top pick for understanding men. 

The trampoline thing is part of a complicated problem, and resentment in the relationship. If you understood men - you wouldn't have brought up his failure, just made the best of the situation (don't take that the wrong way, they don't respond they way we do to criticism). For example, get your son all excited about the awesome present, and make it into a father-son activity putting the trampoline together and take photos (even if he's very young he could 'boss' daddy around with the instructions). Husband would likely have apologized later about not having it done beforehand, and thanked you for how you dealt with it. Expressing your disappointment, although totally legitimate feelings - just made him feel ashamed. Even if you're "right" about your feelings, expressing them that way did not achieve what you actually wanted (closeness and feeling important to your husband).

The fact that he THINKS you have criticised him on x, y, z means he is feeling overly criticised (and yes, perhaps imagining your disapproval or even noticing your body language and facial expressions when you don't approve - but don't say anything). We women can complain about the fragile egos of men, but "happy wife happy life" holds true for most men - if their wives are unhappy it emasculates them (the WORST feeling for a man). And YOUR opinion OF him matters more to him, than any other. 

You said you want HIM to keep better track of HIS expenses. It sounds a little controlling. He's a grown man, put all HIS paperwork in a pile out of the way and LITERALLY DON'T touch it - ever again. Or check if he's doing it. Or 'suggest' this or that with it. Renounce all control. If there's consequences - he can deal with them on his own. You aren't his mother. 

The mother vibe is a major turn off, too. Try and remember what the 'new girlfriend' vibe was like and bring that back in a bit more often if you want to be more seductive. If you want him to be more like he was in your first 2 years - have you thought about how different YOU are now compared to back then? Sex needs a playful atmosphere, feeling loved, and without built up resentment. It's easier to be playful at the start of a relationship, but when we settle into routine... move in together... have joint responsibilities and finances... things aren't as "fun" anymore. Just food for thought. 

"The Five Love Languages" book is also excellent to make sure you know what fills his 'love bucket'. If his 'love bucket' is empty he will be waaaaay more sensitive. That book - I'd read in front of him, and bring up in light conversation (never implying he doesn't do X or Y - keeping it all positive). Don't suggest he read it (if his ego is fragile right now he'll take it as you thinking him inadequate). Just leave it lying around. There's a quiz you can do online to work out your love language too. Lay on the love in his languages real thick, and he will reciprocate (men are generally more reactive, than proactive when it comes to being romantic and 'filling love buckets'). Combine that with understanding how to communicate with him (the first two books I mentioned) without emasculating him - and I'd be VERY surprised if there's not a HUGE turn around. I'd love to hear your progress, best of luck.


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## turnera

Idun said:


> You said you want HIM to keep better track of HIS expenses. It sounds a little controlling. He's a grown man, put all HIS paperwork in a pile out of the way and LITERALLY DON'T touch it - ever again. Or check if he's doing it. Or 'suggest' this or that with it. Renounce all control. If there's consequences - he can deal with them on his own. You aren't his mother.


That's good advice UNLESS his recklessness affects her. My H always had control of our finances. I never even looked at bills except those I was responsible for paying (utilities); he paid all the rest. Then we moved from one house and I couldn't get him to put it up for sale (he made such decisions, as I didn't want to be controlling) - for FOUR YEARS! I'd ask, he'd ignore. So for four years, he 'charged' all the expenses for the old house while we lived in the new house! Mortgage, insurance, utilities, taxes! It started us on a downward spiral I never knew about because I trusted him to know what he was doing, until I saw him unable to use a credit card one day because he was maxed out. So I took a look at the $50,000 plus he owed, and took him to CCC, where he refused to cut up his credit cards. Again, I trusted him to get us out of this. And then he made a series of bad job decisions, until we were $100,000 in debt. So I finally took over the bills and had started paying them down, not letting him know when a new replacement card came in the mail. And then we both got laid off, and here we are, triple the original amount in debt. Because I tried not to be controlling, and he'd b*tch at me if I even brought it up.

So you are right - to a point. But if he's dragging them both down, this isn't about letting him 'be a man.'


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## Idun

I agree every situation is unique and we can't over generalize. I have always been good with money, able to save even when I barely had anything coming in. I've never gone and applied for a credit card or loan (he's added me to his credit cards, and just last year we bought our new house in both our names). He's had heaps of credit card debts, loans, mobile phone plans as soon as he was able etc etc. 

I used to handle our budget, I tracked every expense to the dollar. Saved every receipt. Put aside the exact amounts so we would have enough for bills when they came. And that's all we ever had - just enough. And it stressed me out. He hated me tracking every dollar spent. I was controlling about it as it was the only way I knew how to do it. 

I decided one day - no more. Even though I initially feared the worst - when I gave him the freedom to handle all our finances things changed for the better. When he had that freedom and was able to do things his own way he flourished as a businessman. He does things totally different to me, if I were to look over his shoulder it would stress me out. But he always makes sure we have enough, and I just pay the bills when they're due. I don't bother checking the account because I know he does. Our lifestyle is more than twice as good as it used to be.

So my opinion is bias, because it worked well for me. However I do believe it's ingrained in most that: men = provider, and they inherently want to have control over the money and prove themselves financially. However for that approach to work you have to 'let go' 100% and stop looking over their shoulder. It may bite them in the ass at first as they might be expecting you to step back in like you normally would. But if you don't - they step up. Just my opinion  The exception to this is (for example) men who have some kind of compulsive spending habit, that stops them from making rational financial decisions. Or men who just make terrible business decisions, or have never been taught money sense by their parents.

It seemed as though the finances OP was taking about were his (not hers). Like maybe he's being taking care of it for a time already with no problem, perhaps even from before they met - and now she want to tell him how to do it.


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## JoJoRider8

Thanks guys. I went and read portions of How to Save Your Marriage Without Talking....and found it very interesting. I can definitely see the shame/fear spiral at work in our relationship. I think its one of the most accurate theories about relationships. My H and I are definitely caught in that dynamic. I start to get upset because I perceive him "leaving me" emotionally, and it causes me to critisize or withdraw...he then feels shame and avoids....which throws me in deeper, and so on and so on like a viscious cycle. Until eventually we bounce back to a happy place...stay there a few days...then the cycle continues. I try so hard to shake it off and be happy but that "fear" just overtakes me I guess. I think my biggest fear is being in an unhappy, loveless marriage. And the shame thing..ugh my H has it in buckets ie see the "Nice Guy" theory.

I think a problem arises though in that something has to be done about the shame side. I can recognize my fear, stop the cricitism, and put myself in a place of empathy to make things right again...but ultimately we BOTH have to change in some ways. 

The thing about the business finances. He just doesnt track expenses. He just doesnt. Not until he does his taxes. I mean i guess he maintains a rough estimate in his head. But I have told him it literally drives me crazy with anxiety as this effects both of us. And that anyone who is successful at anything knows what they are making, what they are spending, and budgets accordingly. He has fully agreed I am right, has promised to do it, but hasnt. I'm done even asking though. I just dont even care. If he wants to screw himself whatever. It has to come from him. The problem is, it gets me upset and it manifests itself in critisizing other "petty" things.

And I still dont feel okay with the lack of sex drive. I think that requires an actual conversation or actual steps on both are parts to improve. 

Anyway thanks so much for the book recommendations. The part that almost gave me chills was the "The Worst Thing a Female Can do To A Male" and "Worse Thing A Male Can Do to A Female" chapters. Have not looked at Care and Feeding of husbands but will next.


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## uhtred

My $.02
Nags / criticism are really bad. I don't mean comments / complaints about actual serious issues. If my wife tells me that I spend too much time playing computer games, I accept that as her really trying to be helpful. Its the complaints about trivial things that bug me: "you forgot to refill the trash compactor bag again". Why does this bug me? Because I never bother her about little things she forgets, I don't want a marriage to be a contest of who can catch the other in the most minor offenses. BTW - she has gotten MUCH better about this when I finally convinced her that it bothered me.

Be careful about telling "jokes" or stories about your spouse that are actually insulting / disparaging. Even minor stuff - if its done a lot it gives the impression of a lack of respect. At least balance those stories with positive stories. (Tell the story when I found the way out of some Roman catacombs for us and a bunch of lost tourists as often as the story where I capsized a Kayak landing in waves on a beach). 

For me this isn't about waking on eggshells, its about avoiding large scale negative patterns. Its also not about ignoring big stuff. Its the complaints over trivial stuff that feel like they are designed to devalue your partner. The classic example is the toilet seat (which my wife has NEVER done btw). Just put the seat down - it takes less than a second.


On the plus side: A little affection and love can go a long way. Just simple things to make you partner realize that you think about them and love them. Hugs for no particular reason. Sexual favors. Little gifts. Positive stories told to friends. It all depends on your partner's "love language". 

I think it all boils down to concentrating on things that actually matter, and not those that don't. Criticize because there is something that is important to you, not just to make your spouse feel bad for having made some mistake. The second is how you treat a child and a spouse is not a child. 






ShiningAutumn8 said:


> Thanks. I appreciate that.
> 
> I guess what I am also looking for here is insight from actual males as to what their wives do/don't do that inspire desire and feelings of love in them?? Esp after the honeymoon phase is over. Can any men relate to losing desire for their spouse when they feel she nags or criticizes.
> 
> As well as fellow "NG"s who can share how they prefer to be addressed with issues/criticisms if they have difficulty receiving such comments. I mean, how do a navigate the line between "not nagging" and "minimizing my wants and needs to nothing". At one extreme you have nagging and cricisizing. At the other extreme you have walking on eggshells so much that I am in essence becoming a "Nice girl" Where does the happy medium lie?
> 
> Thanks again


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## JoJoRider8

Thanks uhtred. Its great to hear a mans perspective. One thing however about not critisizing or complaining about "trivial" things -- and I have said this to my H as he also says that he doenst like hearing about "petty" things as he calls them -- what the H deems trivial or petty, might be something the W finds important. I have told him that when I complain about or ask him to do/not do certain things certain ways, it is because ultimatley his said actions/nonactions come back to cause me more work. Or stress. Or whatever. They arent just arbitrary. 

Example -- please dont throw wet towel down on floor. Pleae hang up. The reason is - we have dogs and a wet towel on the floor is a towel that I will not use again and have to wash prematurely. Whereas simply hanging it up lets me use it another time. Petty? Maybe. But I like towels hair/dirt free so why not just hang it up.

Example -- Dont leave size 16 shoes in the middle of the floor, please just push them to side. Reason- I trip and stumble on them at night in the dark

Example -- please dont let dogs on sheetz. Comforter is finw but I absolutely cannot sleep on a sheet that has hair and dander and debris and didr in it. So it causes me to have to change the sheets prematurely.

Now i don't want you to get the impression i just continuously list off complaints to him. These are just things that Ive said in the 3 years we lived together that he still doenst care to respect my requests on regularly.

So my point is -- men, if its something that really bothers her, and its no sweat or more work for you -- why not just do it??? Is this just forgetfulness or passive agressiveness or what?

The respect and desire to be mindful of the other needs to flow both ways!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Idun

> The thing about the business finances. He just doesnt track expenses. He just doesnt. Not until he does his taxes. I mean i guess he maintains a rough estimate in his head. But I have told him it literally drives me crazy with anxiety as this effects both of us. And that anyone who is successful at anything knows what they are making, what they are spending, and budgets accordingly. He has fully agreed I am right, has promised to do it, but hasnt. I'm done even asking though. I just dont even care. If he wants to screw himself whatever. It has to come from him. The problem is, it gets me upset and it manifests itself in critisizing other "petty" things.


It sounds like you want him to do things the way you would do them. It makes logical sense to you (and him) and would ease your stress about it. It would be good if there was something in between. As frustrating as it is, guys hate taking financial advice from their wives (unless they're full nice guys who are too scared to do otherwise). There's lots of good programs, one we use is called Xero (you may want one based in your country though) https://www.xero.com/au/ It allows you to generate reports in an instant. It's awesome. However if he hears it from you he won't use it. If the suggestion came from a male friend or relative who also ran a business (but with proper reporting) it would feel totally different for your H. So maybe you can work something out with getting a male businessman friend/relative over, and getting said friend to ask H what does he use to keep track, and then recommend the program they use. Preferably you're not around during this meeting and he can't know you've asked said male friend to give business advice. H needs to come to you with it as his idea, and when he explains it to you, be super impressed but DON'T ask when its happening or try to influence it in any way. That's about all you can do, otherwise I would simply let go 100% and let him face any consequences. 



> And I still dont feel okay with the lack of sex drive. I think that requires an actual conversation or actual steps on both are parts to improve.


How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It clearly explains how Conversation will not = closeness. However Connection = Closeness. Conversation about his 'inadequate' sex drive will only turn him off, shame him and reduce his drive (for you). Filling his Love Bucket (as per 5 Love Languages), and taking the advice from The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands will be super helpful, and naturally lead to more attraction and more sex. Conversation about it will do the opposite.

You explained the 'petty' thing that he does, that you feel compelled to ask him to fix. Well, put that stress back onto him instead of you. What's important to you clearly isn't as important to him, yet you want him to treat it that way? Make it important to him instead of talking about it (nagging). What I would do for example:

The towel - do you share a towel or something? why would he hang up your towel? If he leaves a wet towel on the floor, put it on his side of the bed. Tell him you don't want to step on it and have it messing up the bathroom but you're not going to put it away for him. Respect yourself enough not to nag.

The shoes - designate a box in a cupboard for wayward shoes, away from where he normally leaves shoes on the floor. Also get a shoe rack. Shoes that aren't put on the rack within the day - get put in the shoe box. It becomes more convenient for him to put the shoes straight on the rack. If he asks why you don't just put them on the rack say it's not your job to put them in their spot, but you don't want to trip over them. If he wants them in a specific spot he'll have to do it. We're a family of 5 so we actually use a short book shelf as a shoe rack. I know you're doing the work here again, but remember it's important to you, not him. And eventually he'll just put them in the rack straight away.

The dogs - It may sound extreme, but set up a mattress for yourself somewhere else in the house, so if the dogs have been in the bed - you have somewhere clean to sleep. If he wants you to sleep in the bedroom with him, HE can change the sheets. If you do this each time he'll stop getting the dogs in the bed. Honestly you have the right to sleep in a clean bed.

Do you see where I'm coming from? The towel on the floor, shoes on the floor, dogs in the bed don't bother him so he doesn't change it. Not only because it's not important to him - but because if you've asked him repeatedly so he feels like he's being controlled IF he does do what you say. For us it's about respect, but for them it's about not being controlled (so try not to think he's deliberately disrespecting you). However, if you make reasonable consequences that fix the problem for you (but are less convenient for him) he'll eventually chose to do what he has to, to avoid the consequences. The less talk, the better. Just explain without anger or contempt that - shoes on the floor will trip you up, towels on the floor ruin the bathroom you've tidied and you don't want to step on them, and you just want to sleep in a clean bed. Also make sure you aren't being too strict or touchy about what's bothering you, home is the place people want to relax and not feel like they can't leave a coffee cup on a table without getting grilled.


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## uhtred

In my case I don't do things because I honestly forget. I'll be taking out the garbage and recycling and just forget to grab a new trash compactor bag. I'll leave a room thinking I'm coming right back, but then have something else to do and leave the lights on.

The thing is, my wife forgets things too. She used to bug me all the time about leaving lights on until I made it clear that I often turned off lights SHE had left on, but didn't think it was worth mentioning.

The shoes you can move easily. The towels - throw in the wash - if he doesn't find a towel just let him know that you are washing it (not in a complaining way, just factual). We have a junk sheet we put on the bed so that the cats can sleep there. We take it off before we sleep.

It depends. Overall is he a good man? Does he put real effort in at home and at work? Maybe its better to just accept that some things won't be fixed. 

Interesting experiment: Completely stop complaining about these things for a few months. See what happens. I really suggest this. 





ShiningAutumn8 said:


> Thanks uhtred. Its great to hear a mans perspective. One thing however about not critisizing or complaining about "trivial" things -- and I have said this to my H as he also says that he doenst like hearing about "petty" things as he calls them -- what the H deems trivial or petty, might be something the W finds important. I have told him that when I complain about or ask him to do/not do certain things certain ways, it is because ultimatley his said actions/nonactions come back to cause me more work. Or stress. Or whatever. They arent just arbitrary.
> 
> Example -- please dont throw wet towel down on floor. Pleae hang up. The reason is - we have dogs and a wet towel on the floor is a towel that I will not use again and have to wash prematurely. Whereas simply hanging it up lets me use it another time. Petty? Maybe. But I like towels hair/dirt free so why not just hang it up.
> 
> Example -- Dont leave size 16 shoes in the middle of the floor, please just push them to side. Reason- I trip and stumble on them at night in the dark
> 
> Example -- please dont let dogs on sheetz. Comforter is finw but I absolutely cannot sleep on a sheet that has hair and dander and debris and didr in it. So it causes me to have to change the sheets prematurely.
> 
> Now i don't want you to get the impression i just continuously list off complaints to him. These are just things that Ive said in the 3 years we lived together that he still doenst care to respect my requests on regularly.
> 
> So my point is -- men, if its something that really bothers her, and its no sweat or more work for you -- why not just do it??? Is this just forgetfulness or passive agressiveness or what?
> 
> The respect and desire to be mindful of the other needs to flow both ways!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Young at Heart

ShiningAutumn8 said:


> .....As well as fellow "NG"s who can share how they prefer to be addressed with issues/criticisms if they have difficulty receiving such comments. I mean, how do a navigate the line between "not nagging" and "minimizing my wants and needs to nothing". At one extreme you have nagging and cricisizing. At the other extreme you have walking on eggshells so much that I am in essence becoming a "Nice girl" Where does the happy medium lie?
> 
> Thanks again





ShiningAutumn8 said:


> .... I have told him that when I complain about or ask him to do/not do certain things certain ways, it is because ultimatley his said actions/nonactions come back to cause me more work. Or stress. Or whatever. They arent just arbitrary.
> 
> .....So my point is -- men, if its something that really bothers her, and its no sweat or more work for you -- why not just do it??? Is this just forgetfulness or passive agressiveness or what?
> 
> The respect and desire to be mindful of the other needs to flow both ways!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Chapman's 5 LL is a great book. My primary and secondary languages of love are touch and words of affirmation.

What I told me wife is that criticism is the opposite of words of affirmation. That means criticism "feels" a lot like my wife is saying she doesn't love me. I have told her to (1) tell me she loves me, (2) touch me in a loving way, (3) tell me something I do that she loves or that I am a great husband ...This is so I feel loved; then tell me what she wants me to do. Then repeat steps 1,2,3. 

Have you ever thought what your husband "feels" in response to your criticism?

You need to understand that over the years you have probably "conditioned" or trained your husband Think Pavovs dog or BF Skinner. It will take years to change his conditioned response to you and your criticism.

My wife wants me to do more chores around the house, but when I do some she use to tell me I was doing it wrong and tell me how to do the chores "her way." 

Well that feels like criticism. Also, I have shown her owners manuals that say you should do things differently, but she doesn't want them done that way. I have told her that she is not my mother and doesn't get to micro manage me. If I do something I get to figure out how to do it as I am not her servant and she is not my mother. We have reached and understanding where on those things she has to have done "her way or not at all" she needs to do them. Other stuff I will be happy to do.

Have you figured out your husbands love languages? Is he responding to your requests or to the way you conditioned him? Does he feel like you are trying to micro manage him?


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## kettle

Drover said:


> I don't think this is true at all. From my own experience I resented her every second I was a nice guy, and resented myself for my behavior too. Nice guys might tell themselves a lot of things, but when they stop lying to themselves they know they're not happy with being what they are.
> 
> The advanced state of marital decay is only the trigger that finally makes them look at the truth about themselves.


Not always true. A very good friend of mine, not married, finds NMMG extremely insightful. Infact he finds the book shockingly accurate as did I. I would also pint out that there are several other means of a person looking at who they are. This is especially true in 12 step programs.


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## kettle

NMMNG is amazing book in that it fits me perfectly. What this means for my future I am unsure. However, it promises to be interesting times ahead.


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