# Round 2



## slereman42

Hi all, my story is typical. I'm a late 30's male on his second marriage which is about to conclude. Wanted to post my story in the Considering Divorce channel but it won't let me. I figure I need to post here first, upload an avatar, etc. Hope all is well for you all!
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Well I can't post anywhere else and want to get this out.

I don't know that it's really necessary to lay out the entire sordid past. Fundamentally I want to become a different person and my wife is fine with how things are. She's not a bad person per se, often times she's a lot of fun to be around, but fun has lead to financial, home, and career disaster. She's great at giving me what I want (at the moment) but has no idea how (or desire?) to give me what I need. I make really good money but live in squalor. Despite the money I make our circumstances demand more and she won't work. I've lost all desire to be intimate with her but still have a great desire for sex. No, there is no one else, not even a female friend I talk to. After my first marriage I was horribly afraid of being alone. Actually I don't think I spent a solid week alone before my second. This time I'm not afraid of being alone. In fact I think there's a pretty significant change I'll be alone the rest of my life and I feel fine about that. That possibility is certainly more appealing than my current circumstances.

People often respond that if finances are tough now, how do they get better by paying out the nose for child support. It's a fair point. I've done the math 9 ways to Sunday though (literally 30 different scenario spreadsheets) and by myself I'll be fine. The insurmountable problem is the precedent I've set and I'm not able to change the behaviors in the current environment. As I said, she's all about fun, so despite years and years of discussions and plans about finances she's always ready and quick to encourage breaking our new rules for a good cause (like, we really "need" a night out). To ever fix this I've just got to break away. Without someone constantly encouraging and begging me to be irresponsible I think THEN I can be responsible.

I've read most of No More Mr. Nice Guy and yes, I firmly fall in the "Nice Guy" camp. The quotes are because no, I'm not really nice. I've regularly demonstrated every negative behavior that book points out. I MUST change this or I will never be at peace with my life. The problem with trying to do it IN my marriage is that my wife fundamentally doesn't want me to change because she gets what she wants at the time. If she has to deal with me being pissy for a while afterward, so be it. This change will be very hard for me to make and I just don't know how to do it with her constant influence. I do mean constant. I work from home and she throws a fit if I try to do anything social without her. ANYTHING social. I can barely even go to the store without her.

Ok, actionable stuff if you've stuck in this long. The questions are around timing, kids, and logistics. The kids all love her dearly so this will alienate me from them for a while. Maybe until they're adults experiencing the same issues. There are a ton of complicated details but I think the most salient points are that my oldest girl is about to ship off for the military in July and our lease is up in August. We REALLY need to move to a smaller/cheaper house (together or apart) and are planning on that. It'd also be easiest for the kids to make the adjustment and handle moving over the summer than during the school year. I left for a couple weeks late last year and my daughter who's about to ship off got really mad at me and the other kids as well so I'm pretty sure how that's going to go. Would it be best to do this before she ships off or after? I want her to be able to focus on her military life and not be distracted by issues at home. She'll be back in 6 months... should I really wait until she returns? That seems painfully long. If I do this before she gets back should I do it before or after we move? It'd be better financially to wait until after we move but then she'll add the fact that I "used her to move" to the list of things she's pissed about and throws in my face.

Ugh... I'm just exhausted...

Thanks all.


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## Tex X

How long ago did you discover NMMNG? If it was recent I would start there and back off your marriage for awhile. Nice guy tendencies can destroy a marriage. Fixing yourself may make things better, and they may not. Either way you're a better person for it in the end. Spend some time fixing yourself and then reevaluate the marriage.

As far as your wife goes - she's been able to run all over you, so she does. That's not acceptable behavior, but having been a nice guy myself, I understand how it happens. Up to you to set the proper boundaries, take your role as the man of the family and start leading. Take control of your financial situation ASAP! And why won't your wife work? Does she have a degree or any other employable skill? If she spent time working she would be bringing in money for the family, and have less time to plan how to spend it all. She needs to get her ass a job. She sounds very immature.


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## oldshirt

Tex X said:


> How long ago did you discover NMMNG? If it was recent I would start there and back off your marriage for awhile. Nice guy tendencies can destroy a marriage. Fixing yourself may make things better, and they may not. Either way you're a better person for it in the end. Spend some time fixing yourself and then reevaluate the marriage.
> 
> As far as your wife goes - she's been able to run all over you, so she does. That's not acceptable behavior, but having been a nice guy myself, I understand how it happens. Up to you to set the proper boundaries, take your role as the man of the family and start leading. Take control of your financial situation ASAP! And why won't your wife work? Does she have a degree or any other employable skill? If she spent time working she would be bringing in money for the family, and have less time to plan how to spend it all. She needs to get her ass a job. She sounds very immature.


I was thinking the same. If you cure your Nice Guy disease and institute some true boundaries and budgets and get her ass out of the house and into the work force bringing in some money, that may take care of things. 

My dad always used to say that employee actually serves two roles in regards to finances. The first is the obvious in that it brings in money. 

The second less obvious is that when you are busy working, you aren't out spending money or dreaming up other things that you think you need and think would be fun. 

When you put in an honest days work, you aren't out spending money and at the end of the day, you often just want to come home and chill and aren't wanting to pack up and go to Disney Land and such.


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## personofinterest

oldshirt said:


> I was thinking the same. If you cure your Nice Guy disease and institute some true boundaries and budgets and get her ass out of the house and into the work force bringing in some money, that may take care of things.
> 
> My dad always used to say that employee actually serves two roles in regards to finances. The first is the obvious in that it brings in money.
> 
> The second less obvious is that when you are busy working, you aren't out spending money or dreaming up other things that you think you need and think would be fun.
> 
> When you put in an honest days work, you aren't out spending money and at the end of the day, you often just want to come home and chill and aren't wanting to pack up and go to Disney Land and such.


THIS

So. Much. This.

You cannot expect and instant shift when you change the rules. Give her time. BUT do NOT waver.

And yeah.....she needs to contribute financially.


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## farsidejunky

If you don't love yourself, you lack the ability to love another in a healthy way.

Honestly, all I can see in your opening post is your projecting your feelings of inadequacy onto your wife.

You are making a move you will likely later regret. 

You owe it to your marriage and children to fix your own ****...in an honest way, not a "nice guy" way. If after doing so you still want out, then proceed. 

But do yourself a favor and dig in to why you struggle to love yourself. That is at the root of your problems. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## oldshirt

And continuing with what Tex X said above, I'm really not seeing where she has made any egregious misdeeds that would normally lead one to divorce. 

You haven't mentioned her cheating or that she is a drunk/addict or that she mistreats you or the kids in any way and you have said that you do not feel intimate towards her, but you do not mention that she had denied, rejected or cut you off from intimacy or any of the typical reasons men divorce their wives. 

The only thing I have gathered from your post is that you are resentful of her not working and that she does not rigidly stick to your budgets or respect your financial plans. 

I'm going to be blunt here but I think you own a degree in the accountability of that. 

By your own statements you capitulate to her wishes and then you become resentful and bitter. 

That is a toxic combo that is fully treatable and preventable. 

The treatment is growing a spine and a pair of balls and standing up for your own boundaries and limits. 

Learn to say 'no.' 

Learn to enforce boundaries and institute budgets and spending caps and don't capitulate. 

And if you do cave in, accept that as your own decision and take accountability for your capitulation and do not hold her in contempt. If she wants a night out on the town, she has a right to ask for it. If you cave in when the budget can't afford it, then you are accountable for that. 

Grow a pair and show her the numbers and explain in facts and figures that if she wants to go to Disney Land, she is going to have to get up in the morning and go to work and bring the $$ to pay for it. Period. 

And if she complies and honors your place as the breadwinner and financial manager and becomes a team player, then you will probably lose a lot of your resentment and bitterness towards her and you may find yourself throwing her legs over your shoulders and giving her some good, hard loving like the Good Lord intended. 

INHO a lot of your resentment and ill-will towards her has been her lack of respect for your financial authority as sole breadwinner and financial manager. 

But you have not asserted your authority or behaved in a manner that generates respect. You have capitulated and then sulked and whined. that is very unsexy and very unworthy of admiration or respect. 

Continue on your path of curing your Nice Guy Disease and grow a spine and balls and take back your authority and get her out of the house and into the work force. 

continued in next post......


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## aquarius1

Obviously some details are missing? 
Spending your life and money doing/not doing stuff and then resenting the other person for it is a NO GO. Damn near killed my marriage. It’s passive aggressive BS. Stand up. Don’t expect another to behave the way YOU expect and then blame them when they don’t. Hold your ground. Draw your line. Your resolve is a muscle. It gets stronger with use. 
Maybe part of your budget can be fun money? You have to budget for fun or you are prone to cut loose. When one partner stays home they want to go out. If she’s working that will change. The couch looks awfully good after a hard week.


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## oldshirt

Responses in bold below.



slereman42 said:


> Without someone constantly encouraging and begging me to be irresponsible I think THEN I can be responsible.
> 
> *This is entirely on YOU bud. YOU are responsible for your actions and if someone else is influencing you do irresponsible things, then that is on you. You are being weak and irresponsible here. *
> 
> I've read most of No More Mr. Nice Guy and yes, I firmly fall in the "Nice Guy" camp. The quotes are because no, I'm not really nice. I've regularly demonstrated every negative behavior that book points out. I MUST change this or I will never be at peace with my life.
> 
> *True dat. *
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with trying to do it IN my marriage is that my wife fundamentally doesn't want me to change because she gets what she wants at the time.
> 
> *OK this is important so read closely. You need to grow some balls and be the man of the house and be responsible for the financial well being of the household and family.
> 
> If she doesn't like that and wants to be some kind of female Peter Pan and never grow up and never take responsibility and can't live within your means, then SHE can pack up and divorce you. that is her prerogative. If she doesn't like living with rules and budgets and doesn't want to lift a finger to bring in any income... then she can pack her crap and move on out and she can take it up with your lawyer and the judge on whether she gets any spousal support or not.
> 
> Here's the thing, if you dump her and you file just because you don't want to be married anymore, the court will fry you on spousal support and you'll still have to pay for her azz.
> 
> If you institute firm budgets and financial plans and try to send her back to work and she refuses to play by those rules, then she may still get a certain amount of support for a certain amount of time so she doesn't go on welfare and have the state pay for her azz.
> 
> But if you kick her out simply because you don't want her anymore, she will plead and cry on the stand and you'll be socked with paying for her for a long, long time.
> 
> Grow the spine and the balls and if she doesn't like it, then she can do the heavy lifting to get out and it will be on her. *
> 
> 
> .


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## personofinterest

> Without someone constantly encouraging and begging me to be irresponsible I think THEN I can be responsible.


Said every lazy, passive aggressive person ever.


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## slereman42

Wow, this garnered a lot more of a response than I thought it would. I sincerely appreciate all you've had to say.

I totally admit and accept that this is all ultimately my fault. In fact the original title of the post was "I'm not the victim, I'm the creator", because I've absolutely created (actively or passively) this mess. My problem is that I don't know *how* to change being around her. Maybe more reading, maybe a support group?

Yes, I left a lot of details out. I don't really know how to put it into words in less than the space of a small novel no one would care to read. The anger and manipulation I've experienced over minor ensues really scares me of what I'll encounter when I actually stand up for myself. Additionally she's treated her body so horribly that she's become a major health liability. As an example, most days she won't even brush her teeth. She smokes a pack a day, has some serious tooth rot going on, and refuses to go to the dentist. I got her to go once, spent about $2,000, and she was incapacitated for over a week from the experience and refuses to go back. So all that money was wasted and actually made the problem worse. She's caused serious, repeated damage to her feet and ankles by being overweight and insisting on playing sports with me (because I can't do anything alone) so many days she's not able to walk. Her last visit to the doctor revealed high cholesterol and several other issues and she won't change her diet to take care of it. This is all in her mid 30's. I'm pretty much guaranteed to go bankrupt with the upcoming medical bills.

Like I said, I could go on near endlessly but none of that changes the fact that I need to do everything y'all have said and man up. Just... how? I'll finish the NMNG book... Maybe that will give me the "aha" or spark to push for the rest...


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## 3Xnocharm

Good god. Do you seriously even WANT to be with this woman?? If so, WHY?? Not only does she bleed you dry financially, and completely disrepect you, she cant even be bothered to take normal care of herself, so has turned into a disgusting, unhealthy blob of ick! So even though you are the one who has allowed things to get to this point, ask yourself...even if you DO manage to get some boundaries in place regarding your finances and stand up for yourself, is THIS woman REALLY what you want in your life for the next 20-30 years?? 

I am so glad you are here, I hope we can all encourage you, because you NEED some help finding your way!


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## slereman42

Sorry, had to jump into a meeting and kinda cut that short. To expand on the "how" question. This to me seems similar to weight loss. During my first marriage I'd gotten up to 260 lbs (I'm 6'4"). That event was the fuel that got me to lose the weight and here 8 years later I've kept it off. The highest I've gotten since then was 220 but I generally hover right around 200 (195) right now. This is a discipline thing, choices I make all the time. So for weight loss I "figured it out". I don't know how to "figure this out". I've been this passive aggressive, nice guy little sh*t since puberty.

I've followed myfitnesspal for many years, encourage and advise others. Some people get it and make the changes in their life. Some people never figure it out. Most people in truth. I don't know the magic words to tell them to make the change I made. I'm on here, on the opposite side of the equation. One might think that since I was able to figure out that life change that I could figure out another... but I haven't so far.


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## Tex X

slereman42 said:


> Like I said, I could go on near endlessly but none of that changes the fact that I need to do everything y'all have said and man up. Just...
> how? I'll finish the NMNG book... Maybe that will give me the "aha" or spark to push for the rest...


Well look - you may have issues in your marriage, but it is not 'all your fault'. You both have responsibility for where you are in the marriage, but you own exactly 50% of the problems, and your wife owns 50%. Own yours and get yourself to a better place. Once you fix yourself then take stock of your marriage. It may very well be that you still want a divorce, but you know what, maybe not. Table that for a later date and get busy on YOU.


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## farsidejunky

I don't know all of your marital dynamics. You've been a little bit lean on detail to this point, and frankly that "novel" would be very helpful.

That said, as a recovering nice guy, there is one thing I can tell you for certain:

A female partner often experiences insecurity when they never really know what their man is about, or what he stands for.

Insecurity, at its root, is fear. Anger frequently masks fear.

Keep in mind this is theoretical, because again, you have been light on details thus far.

her anger could be fear from insecurity because she has no idea who you are. Why? Because you don't assert yourself. You don't show boundaries. You don't stand up for yourself.

Her marriage to you matters enough for her to express anger. I would argue that you need to understand that that anger is a message. That message: "Who am I actually married to? Let me test it to see."

And what has been your response to this point? Radio silence. 

Fearing her anger to become worse in the initial stages of you asserting yourself is legit. Bank on it happening. 

However, if my suspicion is correct, it will eventually begin to wane as she starts to feel secure in understanding you.

In order for that to happen, you have to understand and love yourself. My suspicion is you need work in both areas. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

You need to order the book, "Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s" by Wayne Levine. Stat.

It is not what the title would suggest, but rather about finding purpose in life, and pursuing that purpose in a healthy way.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## slereman42

farsidejunky said:


> You need to order the book, "Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s" by Wayne Levine. Stat.
> 
> It is not what the title would suggest, but rather about finding purpose in life, and pursuing that purpose in a healthy way.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Ordered on Kindle and going to get started here on my lunch break.


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## slereman42

3Xnocharm said:


> Good god. Do you seriously even WANT to be with this woman?? If so, WHY?? Not only does she bleed you dry financially, and completely disrepect you, she cant even be bothered to take normal care of herself, so has turned into a disgusting, unhealthy blob of ick! So even though you are the one who has allowed things to get to this point, ask yourself...even if you DO manage to get some boundaries in place regarding your finances and stand up for yourself, is THIS woman REALLY what you want in your life for the next 20-30 years??
> 
> I am so glad you are here, I hope we can all encourage you, because you NEED some help finding your way!


That's the thing, I really DON'T want to be with her, today or in 30 years. Every holiday I get to see a preview of the future by visiting her folks. She's like her mom, I'm like her dad. That poor guy is just tortured daily and it shows. He made all of the money and she never worked a day in her life but goes shopping every day. If he wants to buy something he has to get her permission. Are we our parents? No. The problem is my wife doesn't see a problem with this.

I went sparse on details because I came on here to talk logistics rather than seek validation. However I'm heeding the counsel of those who've responded and trying to do my work first. It's been a busy day so I'm only about 35 pages into the NUTS book but as he says in there, (paraphrasing) "if your relationship is already in the toilet might as well why not go ahead and use it as a testing ground for becoming the man you want to be".


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## farsidejunky

The only thing a marriage has to do with being the man you want to be is that it is a reflection of you...how well you take care for yourself...how much you value yourself...etc.

Interesting that you cherry picked that one phrase.

Let's see something that stood out to you that has NOTHING to do with marriage.


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## StillSearching

slereman42 said:


> Ordered on Kindle and going to get started here on my lunch break.


Read "The Rational Male" by Rollo Tomassi

ASAP.


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## personofinterest

slereman42 said:


> That's the thing, I really DON'T want to be with her, today or in 30 years. Every holiday I get to see a preview of the future by visiting her folks. She's like her mom, I'm like her dad. That poor guy is just tortured daily and it shows. He made all of the money and she never worked a day in her life but goes shopping every day. If he wants to buy something he has to get her permission. Are we our parents? No. The problem is my wife doesn't see a problem with this.
> 
> I went sparse on details because I came on here to talk logistics rather than seek validation. However I'm heeding the counsel of those who've responded and trying to do my work first. It's been a busy day so I'm only about 35 pages into the NUTS book but as he says in there, (paraphrasing) "if your relationship is already in the toilet might as well why not go ahead and use it as a testing ground for becoming the man you want to be".


File for divorce. It really is that simple.


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## jlg07

You mentioned that the book says: "if your relationship is already in the toilet might as well why not go ahead and use it as a testing ground for becoming the man you want to be".
I was pretty much going to suggest that. Work on you, but doesn't HAVE to be outside of your marriage right now. If you start standing up, YES you will get crap from your wife, but that will also be a good test of how far YOU are in you improvements. You NEED to be able to stand up to that and stick to your guns. You don't have to yell/etc. If she becomes abusive, just tell her "I do not deserve to be spoken to like this, and I WILL NOT. I will leave and when you can have a conversation about this instead of a yelling match, we can continue".

If you start standing up for yourself, eventually you should be able to stand up for what you want from HER :brushing her teeth! (ugh btw), getting medical checkups, etc.. If she is this bad now, I don't think you have to worry about when you both get to her parents age -- she won't be around that long...


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