# Not Sure If Wife Cheated Or Still Cheating??



## NotSure99 (Jan 28, 2013)

Hi All,

I’ve been lurking here for many months and finally decided to post my story.

Background:
My age 47 years old; Wife 40 years old.
Married 12 ½ years, together 21 years.
2 Boys – 19 & 4 years old.

Until October 2012 I worked in another city (about 1500 km away) and came home either on alternate weekends or every month for about 10 days, then away for up to 3 weeks at a time. Since October I’m based in my home town permanently.
Signs and suspicions started about 1 ½ years ago. She displayed about 8 out of 10 signs, including:

-	Reduced sex – lots of lame excuses and avoidance strategies.
-	“Duty” or motionless sex. Most times not even moaning.
-	New lingerie – not seen by me, but kept in drawer, not hidden.
-	Lots of new clothes.
-	New credit card – not told to me. Spending lots of money and many cash withdrawals.
-	Long times away from home, up to 4 hours at a time – shopping, etc. Once 4 hours of “gym” followed by 3 hours of “shopping” while I was out of town.
-	Cellphone texting all the time.
-	Joined the gym and goes about 3 times per week for 1 or 2 hours.
-	Forgot our anniversary for last 3 years, and also forgot my birthday last year.
-	Other red flags include her saying (all once off): 
-	“You are just insecure”. 
-	“Why are you checking up on me?” 
-	“Mr X and I are “Just Friends”.”
-	“Mr Y and I are not ‘Friends” – he doesn’t believe in being friends with coworkers.”
-	“What you don’t know can’t hurt you”
-	“If I kissed another man, would you be able to smell his deodorant on me?” This was said while she was drunk.
-	“Why can’t I get another man to f**k me? You can choose the guy.” (after sex). Says she was only joking– after ED problem, although I am not suffering from ED.
-	“I need a young guy who is under 30” – after ED problem. Says she was only joking.
-	“Let’s do doggy style” – first time after 2 -3 years
-	“Let’s do anal” – she never suggested this before (it was always too painful), although we have tried it in the past.
-	Dating website visited on cellphone – speeddate.com. She denies and says it must be her sister or our teenage son.
-	Hotel website enquiry regarding availability for November 2011. I was not planning to be at home on the specific date related to the enquiry. She says it was a special offer and she wanted to surprise me with a weekend getaway, then changed her mind (too expensive)
-	Other websites visited for accommodation in our city.
-	She wants to go on overseas vacation alone because I did go overseas with a male friend once before. Also says she wants to go alone on her next summer vacation. 
-	Found an instruction booklet for a Sony Eriksson cellphone in her drawer, but no phone or empty box. Then found a website for Sony Eriksson on her cellphone browser. She has a BlackBerry.

In June 2011 I discovered an e-mail exchange with an ex co-worker (age 29), very flirtatious and making plans to meet up for a drink. Some very vague reference to possibly having sex, but not enough to suggest that it did happen. He appeared less interested in hooking up than she was. Also some reference to her having a crush on another co-worker. I then investigated further, using VAR, GPS, tracking e-mail, etc. but found no concrete evidence, only more signs and circumstantial evidence. 

I found items of men’s underwear and clothing in the house, not belonging to me or my son. I used the VAR for months and found nothing, but she discovered the VAR both in the car and the house, so I stopped using it. The GPS information was unreliable so I stopped using it also.

About a month after I discovered the e-mails, she “exchanged” her work laptop for a desktop at the office, saying it was her employer’s decision – so I could no longer monitor e-mails. She did bring the old laptop home for personal use, but no e-mail or internet connection.

I also spoke to her younger sister, who told me that she thinks my wife cheated with one of her friends and had them (her sister and 2 young male friends) sleep over when I was out of town. She did not tell me about this. Her sister also told me that she once met a “cute” guy during her morning runs and told her about him. She denies this.

I have previously confronted her while drunk, which did not go well and could have driven things underground. Everytime I did accuse, she says she wants a divorce. Things are much better between us now, we’re having regular sex and not fighting much, but I am still not sure what has happened in that period 12 to 18 months ago. I cannot get over the possibility that she cheated, and I cannot prove it either. There is a slight chance that it may be ongoing, although I doubt it. Most of the signs listed above have since "disappeared".

I still do not know for sure whether there was/is an affair but my gut feeling is very strong about this. Please give me advice and/or your thoughts on whether she cheated. I would appreciate all comments/inputs but please do not give “cut and paste” advice as I’ve often seen here on this forum. Oh, I do not have regular access to this site while at work, so please bear with me if I do not post regularly or reply promptly. I will come back with replies if there are questions.

Thank you for reading.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

There is no doubt that she is having physical affairs and maybe doing it in your home. Don't let her continue to play you for a fool. You have more than enough evidence to confront her and get her to admit to what she was doing. If she says she wants to divorce you, throw her out and post your evidence on Facebook.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

You gut is screaming at you, you already know the truth. I know you don't want to believe it but even her sister told you she thinks she cheated. There are so many red flags in your post my gut is clenching just from reading it, I can't imagine living it.

She is treating you with with such disrespect, women who love and honor their husbands respect them. How does she show that she appreciates you? How does she make you feel?


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

Aunt Ava said:


> There are so many red flags in your post my gut is clenching just from reading it, I can't imagine living it.


I think reading it whole made my soul throw up a little.

Get out man, GET OUT! Don't even look back!


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

I think its very obvious she is cheating. If you need more proof you should get a PI or you could do the VAR in the car and house. She probably has a burner phone.

Sorry you are here.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

NotSure,

Re-read your own post thinking it was put up by someone else and then ask yourself if you think she's been cheating. 

You already know the answer.

I'm sorry


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

You can't nice her out of this. Maybe after you file she may see what she is losing but I doubt it.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

She is cheating man. She is having As, and may be did many sleepovers in your home. 
You have sufficient evidence about her A. What else you need to realise it.

Do a paternity test on your last child. It may give you the proof you needed.

Any way get tested for STDs and HIV. She is disrespecting you in the worst way and you came her for conformation. Then conform it SHE IS BANGING SOMEONE IN YOUR HOME AND MANY OTHER PLACES.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

Yea she’s cheating, she is following the cheater’s script to a T.

Make her take a polygraph.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

ArmyofJuan said:


> Yea she’s cheating, she is following the cheater’s script to a T.
> 
> Make her take a polygraph.


Set up a hidden camera in the bedroom also. Try a VAR in the car again in a different spot.


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## AlphaHalf (Aug 5, 2012)

honestly man, how the hell do you need to ask this question considering the amount of evidence you have.....seriously???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Get apen var. She was given a heads up on the vars that why she was looking for them.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Yep and you knew the answer before you posted. Sorry you are going through this.

You have a choice to try and get more infor or go for broker and throw her and her stuff out. You could get a confession but the question you have to ask yourself is since you know she is cheating do you want to R or D?

I would bluff myself with all the assurance that you know everything and that if she does not come clean she is out on her A$$.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

NotSure99 said:


> Things are much better between us now, we’re having regular sex and not fighting much, but I am still not sure what has happened in that period 12 to 18 months ago. I cannot get over the possibility that she cheated, and I cannot prove it either. There is a slight chance that it may be ongoing, although I doubt it. Most of the signs listed above have since "disappeared".
> 
> I still do not know for sure whether there was/is an affair but my gut feeling is very strong about this. Please give me advice and/or your thoughts on whether she cheated.


NS99, welcome aboard.

My situation is similar, so I understand exactly how you feel. I believe my wife had one (or more?) affairs a few years ago. There is circumstantial evidence but nothing absolute such as photos. Yet today there are no signs of an ongoing affair, and things are generally pleasant at home.

So for me I hate to blow up a 30 year marriage if there was no infidelity, yet my gut tells me there was infidelity. And if there was infidelity it makes her denial and associated conversations (gaslighting) totally unacceptable. Yet things are generally pleasant at home today.

One thing I did was to sit my wife down and tell her I need to know today if there is anything at all out there that I should know about. Anything. Any previous lies, deceptions, infidelities. Any undisclosed major health problems, gambling debts. Anything. Anything. If there is something out there we can try to deal with it. But if I found out from any other source it would be an instant deal breaker for me, so I need to hear it from her. Now.

That was on the advice of a counselor that I try that. My wife denied there was anything at all to tell me. But it was a chance for her to be honest. There is the carrot and stick in that approach, too.

You can try marriage counseling. The therapist's office can be a safe place for you to bring up difficult topics. If she also sees the therapist individually your wife may confess to the therapist and the therapist may be able to convince her to confess to you. (What she says in private to the therapist cannot be revealed to you by the therapist).

You could tell your wife of your dilemma and ask her to help you find a way to regain trust in the relationship. See how she reacts. You could ask her to take a polygraph.

My opinion from what you wrote is that she had affairs and now wants the marriage for some reason. Comfort, money, social appearances? Your work schedule must have been difficult for both of you and now that you are home things might feel very different to her.

For me the specter of an undisclosed affair with all of that circumstantial evidence would make it impossible for me to have trust enough to have real closeness.


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## johonmirae (Jan 27, 2013)

There is no doubt that she is having physical affairs and maybe doing it in your home.


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## ubercoolpanda (Sep 11, 2012)

I only had to read half the signs to know she is obviously cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Don't know of us human beings wearing deodorant in our mouths. She cheated. Don't ever blame yourself for working away from home as a reason this happened either. When you do have some hard proof, she will use that as the ultimate excuse. You have to read the newbie thread on this site as well, including the 180.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Unrepetant, shameless serial cheater here.
No doubt. 
I'd divorce her like yesterday.
Still if you need hard evidence to pull the trigger you can seriously start snooping, phone bills, money, whereabouts... Keylogging the PC, hugging the phone, VARS, GPS... they will tell you the reality of what's happening the last few years.
BTW you need an STD asap. Affair sex is seldom carried on with protection.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Yeah.....


Id say she's cheating......


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

NotSure99 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I’ve been lurking here for many months and finally decided to post my story.
> 
> ...


If there's an innocent explanation for all of this evidence, then it's an explanation worthy of Rube Goldberg. If you have enough suspicion to lay your case out here, then you know the truth. You're just hoping against hope that you're wrong, and I understand completely why. Two decades of inertia, the fervent belief that the balance of good times and bad is firmly in the black, the pain of finding that you could be so wrong about the person in whom you've placed your most intimate trust. These are all powerful, emotionally primal things, but you mustn't let them twist reality. Your wife has almost certainly cheated. You must, for your own piece of mind, gather evidence one way or another. That way you may confront her from a place of moral certainty; certainty in what has happened in the past and certainty of what will happen in the future, one way or another.


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## Ever-Man (Jan 25, 2013)

NotSure99 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I’ve been lurking here for many months and finally decided to post my story.
> 
> ...


Sounds like she did have an affair, it is almost like she wants you to believe that. Finding another man's underwear in your house, that is solid proof. 

If all this is in the past and your happy now and she seems to be into you, don't bring it up, but keep ever vigilant, and assume she is still cheating on you, or struggling with not cheating on you, it seems there are lots of issues swept under the rug.


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

I am still NOT convinced.


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## NotSure99 (Jan 28, 2013)

Thanks for all the responses. I appreciate it. First off, in response to the last post (DavidW) - you are not convinced of What? Do you mean you don't agree with all the other posters? Please elaborate.

Well, everyone else seems to agree that she cheated, and may still be cheating, and I tend to agree too. But let me know give some more details – some more on the positive side:

Since that first e-mail discovery I have checked about 12 - 18 months of bank and credit card statements (both credit cards), as well as cellphone account statements, and found nothing – except for a text exchange (about 30 texts over 2 days) between the wife and the first OM that she had the e-mail exchange with. She admitted it was inappropriate and said that she didn’t hook up with him, but may have taken it underground. I suspected a new secret e-mail and she opened a Skype account.

I hired 2 PI’s at different times to follow her after work and watch the house – nothing. BUT I could only afford a few days each time, so that’s not conclusive. One PI said I needed about 2 weeks surveillance to catch her.

WRT the underwear, it’s not solid proof because my son sometimes had friends over for swimming during summer, and they may have changed into their costumes. I know, I’m not looking for excuses, just trying to cover all angles. I’m also one of those black and white types and would like to find conclusive evidence before breaking up the family and leaving her after 21 years together.

I read many times that I should not confront without solid evidence, so I’m not sure whether I should do so now, or continue to monitor until I find it. I’m still using the VAR in the car, but again nothing so far. After so many months, I feel like I’m in limbo and have put a hold on living my life. Should I confront, and if so, how should I proceed?

WRT her feelings (Aunt Ava’s question) – she treats me pretty well, is mostly affectionate, sometimes initiates sex, etc. This was not always the case, especially at the beginning of the 18 months. BTW, she has more than once joked that she would like to try a 3-some with another female. We have never actually considered doing this.

Oh, polygraphs and DNA testing is prohibitively expensive in this country and I cannot afford it. I do have some worn panties (with white residue) from a year ago, but not sure if it can still be tested. Any thoughts on this?

I’ve gotta go now due to limited time on this website, which is blocked at the office. I’ll post some more details and updates later. Please keep responding. Thanks.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Stay vigilant, weird how she found the VAR's. Sounds like she knew you were onto her and since then she has gone into stealth mode. 


ps. I think David was being sarcastic. David?


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

The benefit of doubt is long gone.

How long have you seen/felt/known this? DNA exam on "your" 4 year old. Serve her with divorce papers, she wants it she'll get it, you can always change your mind later. Stop having sex with her, start detaching yourself, focus on yourself because the fall out is rough. Do not have any sort of hysterical bonding kissing/sex if she ever even admits anything in the future. 

As long as she sees no consequences, and you have no "definite" proof, such as VAR in the house, car, video cameras. We've seen betrayed spouses do it all, watch their wayward spouses have sex with their affair partners on tape, etc.

Decide for yourself to what extent do you need evidence to know she is being unfaithful? How much evidence will you tolerate before you decide or make your move? You are YEARS behind, you need to catch up!

do you want to know how sick these people are?
go to d-o-c- c-o-o-l .com /forum without the underscores or spaces


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> The benefit of doubt is long gone.
> 
> How long have you seen/felt/known this? DNA exam on "your" 4 year old. Serve her with divorce papers, she wants it she'll get it, you can always change your mind later. Stop having sex with her, start detaching yourself, focus on yourself because the fall out is rough. Do not have any sort of hysterical bonding kissing/sex if she ever even admits anything in the future.
> 
> ...


:iagree:Sorry but this is spot on.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

After reading you post it sounds to me that she pretty much is telling you she is cheating without actually saying the words "I'm cheating". If I'm wrong about that (which I hope I am), then she at a minimum is really disrespectful to you, which isn't healthy.


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## Ever-Man (Jan 25, 2013)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> The benefit of doubt is long gone.
> 
> How long have you seen/felt/known this? DNA exam on "your" 4 year old. Serve her with divorce papers, she wants it she'll get it, you can always change your mind later. Stop having sex with her, start detaching yourself, focus on yourself because the fall out is rough. Do not have any sort of hysterical bonding kissing/sex if she ever even admits anything in the future.
> 
> ...


In my opinion you need more proof, and you may want to determine what level of "infidelity" you are willing to tolerate without breaking up your family. A one-time, several encounter fling, would that kill your marriage, or just become a moment of re-consideration and reconciliation?

For about 40 bucks you can get an over-the-counter semen detector, I would do that on her underwear. 

You could drop hints that you are suspicious and guage her reaction, but that is often counter-productive as she will deny (always do) and then cover-up more, though that may make her stop, which would be good. It is hard to discern from a persons reaction to confrontation if they are lying or not (studies show there is no definitive way to judge a liar), so you reacting to suspicious behavior may be completely wrong and could strain your marriage, and make you miserable. 

I am in this place with my second marriage, i suspect, but I have no proof. WHen I set up a recorder, looked thru her things, there were no red flags. I just had a feeling, which I believe was wrong, and I moved on.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Feel really bad for you. It really sucked reading that so I can't imagine how you feel living it.

You know the answer to your question.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

OP,

You have revealed you suspicions much earlier. Either she has stopped playing around or has found new ways to cheat on you. 

" I want a guy below 30 years.
Are you suspecting me?
You are feeling insecure.
Did I smell some deo?"

Reduced sex life, distancing are signs that you should have investigated much earlier.

I will wait for more info from you....


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## Yessongs72 (Dec 6, 2012)

This...



NotSure99 said:


> I found items of men’s underwear and clothing in the house, not belonging to me or my son.


...is all you need. Seriously WTF.


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## NotSure99 (Jan 28, 2013)

Thanks for all the support guys/gals.

Yessongs...please see my second post, where I explained that there was another possibility regarding the underwear. Although I agree with most posters that she likely cheated, it's not black and white. Believe me, I wish it was, then it would be easy for me to forward with D (rather than R). But most of the "red flags" can somehow be 'explained" although not likely. The truth is, I don't have solid evidence yet. Here's an update on the situation:

Before she discovered the VAR's - this was both due to me being stupid (due to being in a hurry, I didn't use velcro in the car and it slid out to her feet; in the house I put in under the bed (not well hidden) and connected with an electric cord, which she saw when she tried to turn the mattress) - before this I was already monitoring her for a few months but found nothing on the VAR.

All the things she said were mainly once-off - I know her very well and it's in her nature to say such things, sometimes just to gauge my reaction. Would you call this evidence?

I've stopped having sex with her about 10 days ago, but she's now getting depressed because I told her yesterday that I didn't enjoy it anymore because of lack of quality (not quantity) - ie. the duty, motionless / emotionless aspect of it. She says it's because she was under stress at work and at home due to the kids (we have various problems relating to behaviour and stress with both kids). The youngest (4 yo) has now developed a bald patch on his head and the doctor says it's due to stress.

I want to confront her and resolve this whole thing yesterday, but do I really have enough evidence to ensure that I don't get played with lies, excuses, etc. Please help me with this. If I'm wrong, I could destroy the marriage - that is why she has threatened divorce before when I started accusing her... 

More updates and details later....Thanks again for replies.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

On this message board, we constantly talk about "boundaries" in the abstract. This is a good opportunity to talk about a specific boundary.

that is, I would not allow my partner to say the following, whether sober or drunk, joking or not joking:



> -	“If I kissed another man, would you be able to smell his deodorant on me?” This was said while she was drunk.
> -	“Why can’t I get another man to f**k me? You can choose the guy.” (after sex). Says she was only joking– after ED problem, although I am not suffering from ED.
> -	“I need a young guy who is under 30” – after ED problem. Says she was only joking.


If my partner were to say any of those things, it would put me on high alert.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> On this message board, we constantly talk about "boundaries" in the abstract. This is a good opportunity to talk about a specific boundary.
> 
> that is, I would not allow my partner to say the following, whether sober or drunk, joking or not joking:
> 
> ...


If my partner where to say any of those things, it would put me out the door.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pault (Aug 15, 2012)

Well fella Ive read through and everyone screams the same result. There are far to many points here that make this a load of coincidences. Yes you need to think about offering as much rope as possible to see if she'll hang herself and that way youll get the hard evidence needed, you also need to think as has been stated she went looking for the VAR. I hate to say this but I suggest a STi check is needed for you soon. If your W is having untold partners not all I suspect will be using protection and now you find that she likes to test out anal there may be issue of cross contamination with other guys. I suspect the test will ne negitive but males carry stis and dont know it, they can get stis and not know it....until its in full blown surge. 
The points raised by her sister (as close as sisters are) really screams out that there are issues - speak to the sister again and get the low down . set up plans for legan advice and do it without her knowing, consider draining the funding of additional cards and cells. That will put pressure on with showing your hand.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Too many unrefuted pieces of evidence here for you to innocently ignore or to even give her the benefit of the doubt on.

If you are still in a quandry about this, then I'd would wholeheartedly recommend one final test on your part, if possible.

If your cell phone bills are joint, or in any way tied together, or you pay the bill for them, then you have the right to procure copies for personal examination of her calls and texts and who they were to and from as well as the time that they came to occur. 

Now you may already have these in your possession, but if you don't most cell phone providers maintain a database of these that can go back for as long as 3-4 years.

The good news for you is that if you do end up making the unmistakeable determination from these that she was, indeed, in rampant communication with her OMen, then you could use this against her in family court for divorce, child custody and child support purposes.

Sorry my friend: but from your description, things just don't smell real rosy for you in this matter. Get to a lawyer immediately to examine your options and your rights and "go 180" on her pronto!

And for God's sake, if you haven't already done it, please get yourself to your Dr. ASAP and have yourself thoroughly tested!


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## NotSure99 (Jan 28, 2013)

Thank you all for your input. In response to some comments:

I've scheduled a STD test and a consultation with my lawyer for early next week.

I'll talked to her sister again yesterday and asked her to speak to both her friends to get the whole story about that night they slept over. She initially told me she (the sister) was drunk and passed out so she could not confirm anything.

I have all the cellphone statements for 18 months, up to Jan 2013 and there are no numbers screaming at me - I've already investigated a few numbers before and came up empty (girlfriends, family members, etc.). But I'll be checking a few more recent ones that raised orange flags, like texts and calls late at night or early morning. 

Yesterday she said she's going to a co-worker's farewell dinner (company function) and got home around 9 pm - I'll be calling the restaurant today to confirm. Unfortunately when I wanted to put the VAR in the car in the morning, the battery had been drained overnight (while it was charging), so that was a bummer.

The comment on putting a square peg in a round hole is spot on - I have to agree with you, but I will take some time first to prepare myself legally/financially (and hopefully get some concrete evidence) before I drop the bomb on her.

Thanks again. Please keep posting.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

NotSure99 said:


> If I'm wrong, I could destroy the marriage - that is why she has threatened divorce before when I started accusing her...


This is another red flag. Huge red flag. 

You being suspicious causes her to drop off the deep end! If you were being accused you would start by addressing what makes her thinks so? Yes? And if it continued with no basis, the next step would be to let them know that this issue is becoming too much, they need help to deal with their insecurity etc. Yes? 

Cheaters go off the deep end on an accusation because they are guilty. Anger, defensive attitude comes only from guilt. It has a 2 way effect. 1.They make the issue into yours, therefore taking the spotlight off them. And instead you are wondering what is wrong with you and if you really do have an issue. Therefore, not looking at them, not addressing their behaviour. 2. The threats make you worried to bring up the issue, and so you stop bringing the issue up. The threats of leaving you (totally disproportionate to the issue you are bringing up) make you again scared to bring up the issue. And so the issue is immediately dropped. And you don't bring it up again out of fear of repurcussions. 

And so, WW wins. Shuts you up. Gets to carry on (if she is carrying on still. She definitely was BTW). Who in their right mind would be a faithful and loving wife, and when they are confronted with all those things you list, any of those things you list, the answer would be to threaten divorce?!! I mean really?! That's not love. That is guilt. Surely you would want to address the issue and help your husband iron out these issues so he can stop worrying about nothing. No?


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## Loyal Lover (Jan 30, 2013)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> do you want to know how sick these people are?
> go to d-o-c- c-o-o-l .com /forum without the underscores or spaces


OMG, what a horrible website! Thank GOD it's closing!

They're sick! THEY'RE SICKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!

:vomit:
:STILL VOMITTING:

Losing faith in humanity... I'm going back to the 
Long Term Success in Marriage forum.


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## Loyal Lover (Jan 30, 2013)

NotSure99 said:


> Thanks for all the support guys/gals.
> 
> Yessongs...please see my second post, where I explained that there was another possibility regarding the underwear.


Nope... why would your sons' friends leave with wet swimming trunks?



NotSure99 said:


> All the things she said were mainly once-off - I know her very well and it's in her nature to say such things, sometimes just to gauge my reaction. Would you call this evidence?


Okay, the comments... I think she was/is testing you. Has she ever asked you things like "what would you do if I ever cheated on you? Would you forgive me? Etc." If she has ALWAYS said things like that maybe it's because she's never been so sure about her ability to commit herself to you. As for the specific ones like "if I kissed another man would you be able to smell his deodorant on me?" I think that reflects how confident she feels she has you pegged by now. As her clueless husband (assuming she has been having affairs, which I really think she is).



NotSure99 said:


> Yesterday she said she's going to a co-worker's farewell dinner (company function) and got home around 9 pm - I'll be calling the restaurant today to confirm. Unfortunately when I wanted to put the VAR in the car in the morning, the battery had been drained overnight (while it was charging), so that was a bummer.


By the way, when she goes to things like these, does she invite you? Can you not go for personal reasons (i.e. work)? Or is there no invitation?

A lot of extramarital affairs start at work. And you've caught her being inappropriate with coworkers. If it were me I wouldn't just call to confirm, I'd go. Better yet, I'd make sure there was an open invitation but say I don't think I can go, have fun, and then show up unexpectedly since the invite is technically still open. OR not go but hire a PI to go instead.

I'm sorry you're going through all of this and I'm sorry to hear about your 4 year old son and his stress. 

I really do wish you luck. And I hope you will be more CAREFUL with your moves. The more you tip her off, the more she covers up, the more 'reasonable explanations' (EXCUSES) there will be to account for her cheating signs.


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## NotSure99 (Jan 28, 2013)

Loyal Lover – Thanks for your comments, it’s very insightful and helpful.

WRT the swimming trunks – you’re right, I agree.

Has she asked about cheating – no, never. Her best friend who’s single has been cheating with a MM for years, and she always said that it disgusts her (blah blah)….talk about hypocrisy!

The dinner last night – She said it was only for a select few people in marketing, and only close friends of the guy who was leaving the company. Her other co-workers were not invited. I did not ask to go because by coincidence, my company was also having a farewell get-together at the office after work. It baffles me that circumstances always seem to fall in her favour – 1) the VAR didn’t work, and 2) her dinner coincided with my work event…and no, she told me about her event before I mentioned mine. But I like your idea about declining then showing up – I will definitely do that if there’s another such opportunity.

Thanks for your concerns – BTW I’m taking the little one for blood tests this afternoon…I hope and pray for the best. 

And yes, I have definitely been more careful with my “investigations” since the VAR incident. I currently have the VAR under the passenger seat, but she may just be aware of it and therefore I’m getting nothing. I can’t think of another place to hide it?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Some people put it up under the dash.

Idk if they use velcro or what?


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## Pault (Aug 15, 2012)

Notsure99, I hope Im not sounding off line but Im pleased you've started to think strategic. The medical tests are a massive safeguard for you and if the situation does not change anyone else you may find happiness with in future. The legal avice is great. A good company will drill into you to get all the detail and then you can ask the shape end questions about what you can and cannot do legally to gather evidence, monitor, say and do. Then you can, with some confidence do as suggested, a 180 on your W.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> On this message board, we constantly talk about "boundaries" in the abstract. This is a good opportunity to talk about a specific boundary.
> 
> that is, I would not allow my partner to say the following, whether sober or drunk, joking or not joking:
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I REALLY couldn't agree more.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

NotSure99 said:


> Her best friend who’s single has been cheating with a MM for years


I'm sold now. For SURE.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

She's been coached by experienced an cheater. No doubt she talk to the friend when she found the vars, and has now been educated on how to play smarter. 

Hence the sex you are being given and how she always has an alibi.

Pretty clear she's got a burner phone as well. I'm guessing she charges it at work. Do you have the ability to visit her at work unannounced on a Monday? She might be charging it after a weekend? Can you snoop in her desk ? You're looking for the phone or charger.

DNA test do it by mail in the US. Order the kit online and send it in by mail.

If she is hooking up she has lots of opportunity. No one gies to the gym for 3-4 hours regularly unless she is a body builder.

Lingerie etc. You need to track if it's being used. You say you never see it so it should be sitting in the draw and not coming out. Have a look and see what order it is in, check back later an see.

If you can see what panties she wears to work, and see if the come home. Though I've heard of dedicated cheaters who keep a bag of affair clothes and toys in the car trunk, or if she's meet the same guy and he is single they could be at his place.

If she goes away alone or with a gf, that's when you need the PI.

DNA you youngest. What about the 4yr olds blood type, yours, and your wife's? Is his combination possible ?

How was your life with her when the youngest was conceived? Did you have a sudden change? As in did she get pregnant an OM, miss her period and then make sure you and her had enough sex around that time that you would not question it?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Double VARS. Throw in a 2nd one along with the first one..


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## NotSure99 (Jan 28, 2013)

Thank you all for the replies. 

Warlok, I’m already using 2 VAR’s but one at a time – charging one while the other is in the car. Do you think I should have both in the car? I’m still getting nothing.

Update - I’ve confirmed the farewell dinner function with the restaurant last Thursday – even the name of the person whose farewell it was. Still did not speak to her sister – but not for lack of trying since last Thursday. Hopefully tonight... I will also check on DNA options again – Is a year not too long to get reliable evidence though? As for panties worn the same day – been checking when she gets home and also the car – no red flags. 

I have been checking lingerie drawers for months, even tied knots in all the stockings to see and track use – still nothing, but she could be onto me and re-tying the knots, especially when I worked away from home. 

I will get the PI on standby for when she goes out for GNO again. Before the 4 yo was conceived and born, things seemed completely normal, but then I wasn’t on high alert as I am now. With hindsight, I have been re-thinking the marital history and concluded that it’s quite possible that she has had multiple undetected affairs throughout the marriage – then again, anything’s possible isn’t it? She could also be an alien LOL.

Remains – Thanks for your insights. I agree completely with your comments and will keep vigilant on this behaviour. I will bring this up when I finally confront her to get her reaction.

Please keep posting.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

you are right she maybe on to you and may have found the var so she is being careful. You can also get a GPS tracker and watch where she ends up.  You can also drop in on the gym and see if she is there. She could be going there and then hoping in someone elses car.

Sorry you are here. I would go with your gut on this


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

DNA kits are around 80 to 100$. Not expensive anymore.


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## Samus (Aug 28, 2012)

What you need to do is take a moment and review your first post starting this thread. Everything you listed are major red flags. Its a perfect way to confront. You wrote it all down and have her go through each one line by line and explain them. 

The bottom line is she is definetly cheating on you. You have the perfect breeding ground for cheating. You both do by the way. Your at your job away while she is at home and working away from each other. Your list is rather exhaustive and points to her being unfaithful. 

Your gameplan is to bring that list you typed up and go through each one with her. These are your observations, any spouse should be willing to put at ease the mind of there husband. So she should not take offense to your list, but be glad to put your mind at ease. If she feels uncomfortable or hesistates to discuss these items, then she is cheating. 


Good Luck.


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## Loyal Lover (Jan 30, 2013)

Hang in there NotSure! And good luck (whatever that could possibly mean in this situation, the least of all evils). You have our support and we are wishing this matter gets sorted and resolved in your favor.


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## NotSure99 (Jan 28, 2013)

Thanks Loyal. I've been very busy and travelling for work, so no recent updates. I will post again tomorrow as I'm at the airport now and don't have much time. In the meantime, since this thread has gone very quiet, I'm posting an interesting article on RED FLAGS. Please feel free to comment....

_------------------------------------------------------------
*** Article: Relationship Red Flags: 5 Tips for Identifying Your Negotiables and Non-Negotiables - By Sharon M. Rivkin ***
------------------------------------------------------------

You're in a new relationship, and you're starting to see some red flags, warning you that the relationship may not be a good bet, but does that mean you should leave? How many red flags does it take to make that decision? How do you know if the red flags mean future disaster, or are just a warning? 

These are tough questions to answer. But if you've identified your red flags, you can begin to get clear about staying or leaving by looking at your negotiables and non-negotiables. These are the patterns of behavior in the relationship that either you can deal with (negotiable) or you can't (non-negotiable). A negotiable item does not go against your integrity, but a non-negotiable does. For example, if you value honesty in your relationships, and your partner is continually lying to you, that is a non-negotiable. How could you really have a healthy relationship with someone whose very behavior goes against the essence of who you are? If you compromise on this behavior by deciding that sometimes lying is okay, you are cutting into the deepest part of your psyche. Non-negotiables are those issues that you will not compromise on because it goes deeply against your values. 

Negotiables are not deal breakers and are those issues that don't cut as deeply. For instance, maybe your partner is messy and you value neatness. However, messiness doesn't cut into your integrity and though it may never change, you could live with it and not feel you've compromised your very essence. 

It is important to know your negotiables and non-negotiables. That way, you can decipher which of these two categories the red flags fall into. If in your current relationship most of the red flags are non-negotiables, it will be nearly impossible to have a loving relationship for more than 2-3 months. Our integrity can only be compromised for a short period of time -- the honeymoon phase -- before we get angry and resentful of our partner. If your negotiables outweigh your non-negotiables, it makes sense to continue the relationship. 

Use these 5 tips to help you identify your negotiables and non-negotiables:

1. Make a list of issues you know you can compromise on that your partner is displaying. "She's late all the time, but I can live with that."

2. Make a list of issues that you know you can't compromise on. "He says he's going to call me and either doesn't or calls much later than planned. He always has an excuse, and I want someone who keeps their word 99 % of the time. I can't see living with this much inconsistency."

3. Make a list of issues you would compromise on within yourself for another person. "I know I'm messy, so I'd either get an organizer to help me with this or be willing to hire a housekeeper."

4. Make a list of issues you could not and would not compromise on. "I am an independent woman, and could not be with a partner who wanted me to give up my work or my friends for him."

5. If you're not sure which category your red flags falls under, ask yourself this question: If this behavior never changed, could I live with it? You have to assume it may never change and that alone should help you determine if it's a negotiable or non-negotiable. 

If you know your non-negotiables, there's still the issue of infatuation/love/passion/fantasy that clouds our judgment and overrides our good senses. Sometimes we ignore the signs of disaster and plunge forward anyway. That's just called being human, so don't beat yourself up if this happens. Nevertheless, knowing your negotiables and non-negotiables is important because when the fantasy dies down and you're wondering what happened, you can look at your list as a reminder. This will help you pull back, reevaluate, and have a clearer sense of what to do. The negotiables and non-negotiables are exactly the framework and boundaries needed when trying to decide to stay or leave. It doesn't matter how long you've been involved, the negotiables and non-negotiables are always there to remind us of who we are, what we want, and what we don't want._


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## Ever-Man (Jan 25, 2013)

NotSure99 said:


> Thank you all for the replies.
> 
> Warlok, I’m already using 2 VAR’s but one at a time – charging one while the other is in the car. Do you think I should have both in the car? I’m still getting nothing.
> 
> ...


Your situation sounds a lot like my current marriage, lots of circumstantial but no hard evidence. THis Valentines day is the perfect time to find something, if anything is happening. Redouble your efforts, see if you can "smoke it out" since she realizes you suspect and are investigating, that is what it will require. 

Workplace affairs are very hard to detect since all the action can take place at work, or during lunch, who knows. 

My X Skunk Wife had multiple affairs during our 19 year relationship/marriage, and I had NO IDEA until she left me and shared all the wonderful details, just to destroy me further.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

NotSure99 said:


> She says it's because she was under stress at work and at home due to the kids (we have various problems relating to behaviour and stress with both kids). The youngest (4 yo) has now developed a bald patch on his head and the doctor says it's due to stress.


Ok, cheating or not, a 4 year old should not be suffering from stress. To me this indicates an extreme lack of stability/security in the home, likely starting with the relationship you have with your wife. Some people (the minority) manage to keep marital problems under cover well enough so that children are not too affected by it but kids are perceptive and most people can't hide it that well. Not only should you be on high alert based on the evidence you've gathered but I hope you feel a sense of urgency because it is negatively affecting your children. It isn't always true that a 2 person household is better for children. A broken home is not good for children but if that means that at least one parent can provide a positive, stable and secure environment then it may be preferable to 2 parents living under the same roof in a broken marriage.

By the way, my youngest child (8 years old) is predisposed to anxiety/depression. We recognized some behavioral issues that were beyond normal for a child that age. We have her at a child psychologist once a week. It has been very beneficial and the therapist has been able to provide very helpful advice for changes we can make as parents. My oldest daughter is very different than my youngest daughter and requires different parenting styles. I am confident that we caught it early on and am glad we sought outside advice. Insurance pays for most of it. Better now than when she is 16


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

NotSure99 said:


> All the things she said were mainly once-off - I know her very well and it's in her nature to say such things, sometimes just to gauge my reaction. Would you call this evidence?


A loving wife who is devoted to her marriage does not say these things. Is it hard evidence? No, but these are significant red flags. It is on her mind. "Just kidding" is rarely "just kidding". She may be gauging your reaction but if you said OK to finding another man for her, I wouldn't be surprised if she went for it. If she hasn't cheated already then it may be from a lack of opportunity ... she seems vulnerable to crossing that line when the opportunity presents itself.

Why is it necessary to get evidence of cheating? Your marriage is in trouble, whether she has crossed that line or not. If she is cheating, what does that mean for your marriage? If she isn't, what does that mean to you?


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

NotSure99 said:


> I found items of men’s underwear and clothing in the house, not belonging to me or my son.


Ok, I don't know that this is evidence. If I'm over at somebody's house having sex, I can't imagine leaving without putting my underwear back on. Maybe ... but I think I would notice as I'm leaving the house ... plus it is simply a habit to put my underwear on before my pants so it is unlikely I would forget them. Your son's friends would be more plausible if they were swimming.

Now, all the other evidence is pretty bad. You have a son at the house so putting a VAR in the house may not pick anything up ... she might not be willing to take the chance by bringing a man home.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Samus said:


> What you need to do is take a moment and review your first post starting this thread. Everything you listed are major red flags. Its a perfect way to confront. You wrote it all down and have her go through each one line by line and explain them.
> 
> The bottom line is she is definetly cheating on you. You have the perfect breeding ground for cheating. You both do by the way. Your at your job away while she is at home and working away from each other. Your list is rather exhaustive and points to her being unfaithful.
> 
> ...


Exactly. You can debate each one individually ... but when taken as a whole, the conclusion is easy to see. Even if a few of them are off base, that doesn't change the conclusion based on the body of evidence.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> Warlok, I’m already using 2 VAR’s but one at a time – charging one while the other is in the car. Do you think I should have both in the car? I’m still getting nothing.


Yeah, do it for a while. Use the first one in its regular place and hide the 2nd one in a new place. Or you can use one of the spy cams for a few days(I am not too sure about this though)


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/67661-become-spy-catching-them-technology.html

read this thread by DevastatedDad


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## NotSure99 (Jan 28, 2013)

Thanks JustSomeGuy, Warlock and others who have contributed. Your comments are most valuable and highly appreciated.

Update:

I have been using the VAR again for a few weeks now and found nothing - also the GPS these last few days, again nothing, but I will continue, next time with 2 VAR's at once.

I've decided that in the meantime that I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt (but only regarding whether she's currently cheating - I know she cheated before while I was working/living away from home). So I'm taking her for a romatic Valentine's Day dinner tonight - who knows, this could be our last VD together!!

STD test came back negative (thank goodness)! 

The lawyer is on standby - I had only a telephonic conversation but I'm having a proper consultation shortly (when I have cashed in some options and can afford it).

Her sister seems to be delaying speaking to me about "that night" when she and her "friends" stayed over at my house. She keeps telling me she hasn't spoken to them yet but she will....this may be a dead-end. Maybe she has bad news and is re-thinking whether to tell me and thereby betray her big sister.

BTW, my wife is constantly asking me the question - "Do you love me?". And then when I say "Yes", she says "You only love the idea of me." Does this mean anything? I thought maybe she's trying to justify what she has or is busy doing? Please give me your thoughts on this...

Lastly, she is on the verge of spending a large amount of cash (a company share payout) on installing new laminated flooring and cupboards in our house. I'm unsure whether to let her do this, knowing the storm (that is possible divorce) is on the horizon. Do you think I should let her do it at this stage?

All comments are appreciated. Please keep posting.


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