# Wife finally admitted her attraction to him



## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Hi, I'm new here obviously. We've been married for 12 years, no kids though we're considering having one this coming year. We've got graduate degrees complete after a long slog and we're in our 30s. 

So she took me to a work event and a friend of hers mistook another guy for her boyfriend. I was able to figure that she genuinely thought this other guy, a colleague of my wife's, was romantically involved with my wife.

This led to fighting between us when we got home. This has been several months ago now. So she has been reluctant to talk but I found out more over time. We also moved so she is no longer around that guy either at home or at her new job.

Her claim all along was that he was a friend who gave her some much needed attention after her family had some problems. I was busy finishing off my degree and she needed to talk to someone. He was there as someone to talk with and gave her attention, though she admits he eventually turned the talk toward things like her clothes and how he liked certain things about her, which makes me think he had other thoughts than friendship.

I've found no texts or emails, calls or anything, but I never had access to her old work email account and she had left before I ever saw it. They also worked together so I think they talked in person, obviously enough that one lady thought they were a couple.

So my issues are I am having trouble believing her that she had no intentions with him other than to talk. She said at one point it was all about needing someone to talk to, someone to hear what she felt and that she got too attached accidentally over time, about a year. Then he began to say other things, talking about her clothes and what she should wear, how certain outfits are his favorite, which she admitted to.

So then we talked tonight after fighting over a movie last weekend and a show tonight that made me think of our situation. She says tonight to me, she's in bed now, that she never had any emotional connection to him, it was all that he was an attractive young guy. This doesn't jibe that much with what she said before unless I got it wrong somehow. She was trying to make me feel better and she said this to do that, that she felt nothing for him but that he was hot and paying attention to her. She said he only once tried to put his hands on her and she stopped him. I think she saw I was upset because she then said he was actually unattractive because he was starting to go bald.

So another issue that bothers me now is she used to talk about him, I mean last year before this happened, just as a goofy young guy she liked having around to go to work events with. So after all this went on this past year, and I finally became aware of it, I remember that she had stopped talking about him at work, and the times she mentioned him before (that I remember and am sure of) he was no longer there. So an office retreat he was the life of the party at last year, she told that story this past year again (she does this) and he wasn't there. So I feel that's important somehow.

So we're no longer fighting, things have mellowed, she's been a great wife since then. But now I'm having these nagging doubts and also sometimes anger since she's given me a lot of jealousy about stupid things since we've been together. I mean if a work colleague sends me an email she gets jealous, that kind of thing.

So what is going on with this and has anyone seen this before? What is this and is it a big deal? I should mention that once years ago I got a similar feeling in my gut and it turned out to be an issue, so I'd like to get this resolved though he's no longer around her. Advice please.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

What exactly do you think is happening now? 

Do you think she's still in contact with him?

Do you feel like you don't have the whole story?

So far, you know she was/is attracted to him and flattered by the attention. They got close enough to at least have the start of an EA, as the OM felt encourage enough to start commenting on her clothing, which other than a, 'You look nice today' thing is generally not done in a workplace environment. She hung out with him at any work events they were at together. She's admitted to all of this, with a lot of filler stuff thrown in to try water it down.

Now, if she is no longer in contact with him, I see an issue with the fact that she does not understand/accept proper boundaries that married people need to have with opposite sex friends. Therefore, this issue could obviously arise again.

If she is still in contact, they've gone underground in order to continue the relationship which would evolve into an affair.

I've seen the book "Not Just Friends" suggested to a few people on this site. I haven't read it myself, but maybe it would be helpful for you to read it then pass it to her if you felt it would assist in helping her see your point of view.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

breeze said:


> What exactly do you think is happening now?
> 
> Do you think she's still in contact with him?
> 
> ...


Thanks. I don't think anything is happening now and I haven't found any evidence that they still talk. He apparently was either with a serious girlfriend or even engaged and I think he may have just moved on with her right now from what I can gather. I also don't think they meet or anything like that. But part of what is getting to me now is the total silence from him and her though she said he was some important conversation partner at least at one point.

I don't feel I have the whole story at all, not after tonight changed the picture so much. She said all along she needed emotional support and I wasn't there, she didn't want to cause a problem and then she just got too close, he began to say things to her. 

But then tonight it shifts to she had no feelings, he was young and hot and she wanted to talk to him, why shouldn't she it meant nothing but a chance to enjoy conversation with him. His attention was valuable simply because he was attractive to her and much younger. Etc.

But yes I tried to allude to it, and you mention it, I worry it could happen again because this is probably the 2d time this has happened, though the first was 9 or 10 years ago. But I had the same feeling then and now I'm finding out I was right to feel that way then.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

This doesn't sound good at all,
They had an inappropriate relationship and that's for sure IMO, I don't know if it went physical or not, but the fact that her co worker thought they were "together" speaks volumes on the body Language that was spoken on the job, don't you think?
She changed jobs and you moved so it looks like if there was an affair, it is now over, so it may be hard for you to know anything for sure now, unless you find out they are somehow still in contact.
You said something like that already happened. How did you handle it?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

How is it that big of a deal if she was attracted to him? You're never attracted to any other women you meet? You don't talk to any of them? Unless you've found further evidence that there's more going on I'd let this one go. Did she pull away from you during this time? You say she's a great wife now so does that mean you're spending quality time together and getting along well?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

If someone at work thought they were a couple and she keeps changing her story, there are good odds she was cheating.

Can you contact that co worker? You could probably get some clarification. Your wife is trying to minimize the situation and has already given you two different reasons for her relationship and even changed that by saying he was not that attractive after all.

BTW. Her needing someone to support her emotionally and hot young guy at work giving her attention, are both red flags for cheating.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Uncertain Man said:


> She said all along she needed emotional support and I wasn't there...


I was about to tell you to chill, that even IF there was anything it was minor and it is over. Then I read that. That exact quote is cheater talk for "we either had sex or were about to at the first opportunity". That kind of thinking is her giving herself a green light for when the chance presented itself. She pre-qualified herself for an extramarital affair.

You MAY have dodged a bullet here. But you are going to disappoint her again. What happens then?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Or they were having an affair and cut it off. That could explain the sudden silence between them.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Hmm... hard to say. Definitely some orange flags, though. Maybe yellow.

Could you elaborate further on this comment...?



Uncertain Man said:


> *I should mention that once years ago I got a similar feeling in my gut and it turned out to be an issue*, so I'd like to get this resolved though he's no longer around her.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> How is it that big of a deal if she was attracted to him? You're never attracted to any other women you meet? You don't talk to any of them? Unless you've found further evidence that there's more going on I'd let this one go. Did she pull away from you during this time? You say she's a great wife now so does that mean you're spending quality time together and getting along well?


Admitting the attraction would be a minor thing in an of itself, but why did it take so long for her to cop to it? And now he's unattractive all of a sudden because he's balding? That's minimization and deflection. Then throw in the "he was there when you weren't"-esque comment, along w/ talking about him talking about him talking about him and then suddenly NOT talking about him... well, there are some flags there.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Yep. He needs to make sure he is paying attention to her, meeting her emotional needs, if he wants to prevent an affair.


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## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

Since you have no real evidence she was cheating. I would just stop talking to her or anyone else about it. But, be quietly ever vigilant. No babies for now, would be a good thing.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, you can be guaranteed that you don't know the whole truth. You can't trust her either since she has changed her story. She does not have proper boundaries, and I doubt that she still does. Creating a child when your relationship is uncertain is folly. Work on communication, and then see a counselor to hash out the issues. Get a book on boundaries, and have her read that too. 

To protect herself, or hide her guilt, she will most likely minimize her actions. It is a self protective mechanism, and it is to serve her best interest, not yours. 

Do learn about emotional needs, and the time it requires for a couple to make a relationship work. Your gut is telling you, and you have an inkling that she is the type of person who is capable of having an affair.


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## D.H Mosquito (Jul 22, 2014)

You're angry and feeling betrayed quite rightly as you and not him should have been her first port of call when she was unhappy, 
For someone to mistake them as a couple shows that their friendship was quite intimate even if no physical affair but this was the next step after a deep friendship the emotional affair and i would be less than happy with her wearing his "favourite" clothes in my presence if you were me,
At least she is slowly but surely admitting to setting the boundaries of this friendship wrong and that can give you both something to work on and save marriage from any problems but she has to make a big effort in this, 
For them to be mistaken as a couple did you spend a lot of time apart? perhaps she was staying over at his or seen acting as a couple holding hands kissing etc? if not then like a lot of couples the relationship has had a helluva big test and with communication and clear boundaries then you know how to protect your marriage and what to watch out for in future and she should be able to spot any new male friend with a hidden agenda,
let us know how things pan out


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

I dunno, if nothing is going on NOW, driving yourself crazy about the past is good for what? 

She may be completely sincere about the finding him unattractive now part. Sometimes attraction is weird like that. She might have been attracted to him in the past, but realized how silly she was being, realized that she was in the "fog" and now that she sees the value of your marriage, she sees him for what he really is. A balding player type who flirted with her while married and while he himself was engaged.

Just playing devils advocate here.


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

Another thought....

The very fact that she mentioned to YOU that she talked to him in a time of need shows that she wants YOU, not him. Perhaps making yourself more emotionally available would reassure her that you WILL be the man she needs, always.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

jld said:


> Yep. He needs to make sure he is paying attention to her, meeting her emotional needs, if he wants to prevent an affair.


OR!!!!!!!

His old lady needs to stop flirting with young hot guys at work and spend more time affair proofing the marriage.

Just saying


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

i think you need to be honest with her about how you feel about htis whole issue...and lay it out there 
1. you feel you don't have the whole story
2. that you feel that the you have serious reservation about having children with her
3. that you fear that the minute you both get caught up in your work and family that when she needs emotional support she will turn to someone else and next time it might go further. 
Ties that bond each other now are loose and frayed, you both need to work on that, its not just her issue its yours as well. couple therapy is in need here.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

the guy said:


> OR!!!!!!!
> 
> His old lady needs to stop flirting with young hot guys at work and spend more time affair proofing the marriage.
> 
> Just saying


But he is the one here, right? The only one we have influence over?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I just think that this being strike two they both need to sit down and talk about why this happens, how to prevent it and the consequences for the "third strike".

I mean what has OP wife learned from these two inccidents?

It sucks to sweep this kind of thing but it has to be faced head on and dealt with...if not his old lady will continue to justify her EA's.

Lets all face it folks...there are preditor out there looking for married chicks and married chick that are to turned on by the attention to see what they are really risking.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

the guy said:


> I just think that this being strike two they both need to sit down and talk about why this happens, how to prevent it and the consequences for the "third strike".
> 
> I mean what has OP wife learned from these two inccidents?
> 
> ...


I think he could prevent it by spending time with her and meeting her deepest emotional needs. I think she would be putty in his hands if he did that.

I think educating her about predators would also be an excellent service to her.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

jld said:


> I think he could prevent it by spending time with her and meeting her deepest emotional needs. I think she would be putty in his hands if he did that.
> 
> I think educating her about predators would also be an excellent service to her.


Or she is broken and nothing the OP can do will help.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

jld said:


> I think he could prevent it by spending time with her and meeting her deepest emotional needs. I think she would be putty in his hands if he did that.
> 
> I think educating her about predators would also be an excellent service to her.


:iagree:

She was talking to this other guy because he was meeting her emotional needs when the OP was too busy. If he doesn't step up, it WILL happen again. This is the same as intimate sexual needs. You expect your partner to meet only your sexual needs and you need to be the only one to meet her intimate emotional needs. If you're not willing to do it she will need to find it somewhere else. 

We also need to be able to have a conversation about "what we do when we are attracted to other people." Can you talk about it honestly or not? We deflect and diminish because we know we will be punished if we tell the whole truth. I'm not saying we shouldn't be completely honest with our partners, but being a listener who doesn't get upset hearing the truth encourages truth-telling in the future.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jld said:


> I think he could prevent it by spending time with her and meeting *her deepest emotional needs*. I think she would be putty in his hands if he did that.
> 
> I think educating her about predators would also be an excellent service to her.


You use this expression...often.

How does a partner identify their partner's "deepest emotional needs?"


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

You can drive yourself mad with all the "what ifs" and so forth. 

The problem is that now she has left that job she cannot prove anything to you as there are no work emails she can access.

In addition, it's hard to just trust her as she betrayed your trust. (And for it's worth, will probably do so again- but that's a chat for another day).

So it makes sense you do not trust her. As to the shifting story, I see some semblance of consistency of thought to it so that in and off itself does not concern me.

Here is my best advice:

Sit her down and very calmly tell her why you do not feel you are getting the whole story. Tell her she has betrayed your trust, cannot prove her story, and trust is the very bedrock of a relationship. Without it, you cannot be at peace with her ever again. Ask her, just one more time, to level with you. If she does (even if she tells you the same story), then it is up to you to either accept it as the truth and hopefully rebuild your relationship, or not accept it and then move on. But you cannot live like this.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

firebelly1 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> She was talking to this other guy because he was meeting her emotional needs when the OP was too busy. If he doesn't step up, it WILL happen again. This is the same as intimate sexual needs. You expect your partner to meet only your sexual needs and you need to be the only one to meet her intimate emotional needs. If you're not willing to do it she will need to find it somewhere else.
> 
> We also need to be able to have a conversation about "what we do when we are attracted to other people." Can you talk about it honestly or not? We deflect and diminish because we know we will be punished if we tell the whole truth. I'm not saying we shouldn't be completely honest with our partners, but being a listener who doesn't get upset hearing the truth encourages truth-telling in the future.


Would you be willing to start a thread on it? 

It is an important subject to discuss, imo.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

jld said:


> Would you be willing to start a thread on it?
> 
> It is an important subject to discuss, imo.


Which part?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> You use this expression...often.
> 
> How does a partner identify their partner's "deepest emotional needs?"


My husband knows mine. Some came from listening to me, others came from really studying and observing me.

It surely takes effort. Patience and curiosity. You really have to love that person.

I will ask Dh if he can respond to this question tonight.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

firebelly1 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> She was talking to this other guy because he was meeting her emotional needs when the OP was too busy. If he doesn't step up, it WILL happen again. This is the same as intimate sexual needs. You expect your partner to meet only your sexual needs and you need to be the only one to meet her intimate emotional needs. If you're not willing to do it she will need to find it somewhere else.
> 
> *We also need to be able to have a conversation about "what we do when we are attracted to other people." Can you talk about it honestly or not? We deflect and diminish because we know we will be punished if we tell the whole truth. I'm not saying we shouldn't be completely honest with our partners, but being a listener who doesn't get upset hearing the truth encourages truth-telling in the future.*


The bolded. It is important.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

firebelly1 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> She was talking to this other guy because he was meeting her emotional needs when the OP was too busy. If he doesn't step up, it WILL happen again. This is the same as intimate sexual needs. You expect your partner to meet only your sexual needs and you need to be the only one to meet her intimate emotional needs. If you're not willing to do it she will need to find it somewhere else.


On the face of it, I might agree.

But these things are a two-way street in a relationship. She was apparently unwilling to work on it with him so she just went elsewhere. Why bother actually working on it at home when there are hot guys at work willing to give me the attention I want. That is a dangerous mindset. One of a potentially serial betrayer.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

jld said:


> The bolded. It is important.


I think there are two parts to that - the first is being able to go into a relationship with the understanding that you will continue to be attracted to other people and to have a conversation around what we DO with those attractions; what's acceptable to us in the context of this relationship. 

The other part is being a listener who encourages truth-telling and that can be in the context of any difficult conversation.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

firebelly1 said:


> I think there are two parts to that - the first is being able to go into a relationship with the understanding that you will continue to be attracted to other people and to have a conversation around what we DO with those attractions; what's acceptable to us in the context of this relationship.
> 
> The other part is being a listener who encourages truth-telling and that can be in the context of any difficult conversation.


I think that is very good. I think the subject could make for an interesting thread.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

She got too close. She can say that she felt no attraction, and in her rational mind now that's probably true, but then again, this is how all affairs start. Any friend of your wife's who is a man actually really wants to have sex with her. You need to tell her this and not back down about this general fact. You learned a lesson in life: protect your flank. I don't think alot of jealous behavior is warranted at this point. Accept that she got to close, and you were able to shut it down, and now you have to ensure it does not happen again.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I was about to tell you to chill, that even IF there was anything it was minor and it is over. Then I read that. That exact quote is cheater talk for "we either had sex or were about to at the first opportunity". That kind of thinking is her giving herself a green light for when the chance presented itself. She pre-qualified herself for an extramarital affair.
> 
> You MAY have dodged a bullet here. But you are going to disappoint her again. What happens then?


Thanks. Yes she's said that she didn't have sex with him but she would have had things gone on the way they had. She wasn't flippant about this, it took months of arguing and discussing for her to admit this. But yeah the wrong time, wrong place and she would have gone home with him, though she changes her story on this too.

I'm glad we've moved and she's away from him but that also keeps me from knowing anything about what went on. I found out, we were fighting, we moved almost right then without ever knowing what went on which is part of why I'm struggling with it.

I've disappointed her before and this happened once before, but I only found out about now. What gets me is that I was feeling this same way then, it was about 10 years ago. I wasn't doing well for her or maybe it was mutual, a male coworker got close to her and then tried to make it an affair. So yes it's happened before.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> How is it that big of a deal if she was attracted to him? You're never attracted to any other women you meet? You don't talk to any of them? Unless you've found further evidence that there's more going on I'd let this one go. Did she pull away from you during this time? You say she's a great wife now so does that mean you're spending quality time together and getting along well?


No offense but this seems to ignore a lot of what I wrote. I was bothered by her changing her story about what went on after a third party thought they were together, not simply her attraction.

We get along well sometimes but not others, we still fight about it. It mostly stems from the fact that I don't really get straight answers. She definitely seemed like she was ready to end things with me when this was going on, or during the time after I found out when she was very angry with me about confronting her.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I think the both of you need to focus on the point she is now making...." it meant nothing".... with this kind of thinking she will do it again.

I also think you got the straight talk when she told you she was hot for this punk and would have gone home with him. You got pissed (just like i did) so she changed her story.

So the fact is it did mean something and she was making some bad choices. Now these choices need to be addressed and it also needs to be discussed how she will affair proof the marriage the next time you get busy making a better life for the both of you...

She will do this crap again if she doesn't get some help on how to affair proof her marriage.

The way I see it is she got straight with you, saw your reaction and back peddled.

I also think that *if* she screwed the punk there would be no way in hell she would have been that up front. I would think the guilt would have shut her down, but in stead she told you whats what and that's a hard pill to swallow....it was for me.

That's my $0.02


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

thatbpguy said:


> On the face of it, I might agree.
> 
> But these things are a two-way street in a relationship. She was apparently unwilling to work on it with him so she just went elsewhere. Why bother actually working on it at home when there are hot guys at work willing to give me the attention I want. That is a dangerous mindset. One of a potentially serial betrayer.


I see your point, but I don't nessesarily agree. If she felt that way, why on Earth would she TELL him any of this? 

To the OP, you are getting mixed answers. Perhaps she is genuinely confused? Feelings are troubling little monsters. You said she told you that she would have probably gone down that road with this [email protected] me that speaks volumes. She WANTS to move forward. She doesn't want it to happen again. 

In my failed marriage, I felt extremely emotionally neglected. So perhaps I am a tad biased. I had a "crush" on a guy who lived overseas. We chatted on facebook sometimes. I didn't see anything wrong with it at the time because I was being ignored by my ex (I know better now.) I did casually mention him as a penpal (because really, that's all he was, platonic conversations and all) and my ex BLEW UP. Completely freaked out on me. So I definitely didn't want to come clean about my crush. Your W IS telling you about very hard feelings to come clean about. It says a lot to me.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

GA HEART said:


> Your W IS telling you about very hard feelings to come clean about. It says a lot to me.


What sucks is OP old lady is now back peddling and won't face the truth.
She should have stuck to the ugly fact that she had a crush with a co worker and spent enough time with him to make others think they were a couple.

Now she is back in denial and that kind of crap is not going to help her in the future.
She is a repeat offender she needs to get her @ss check before she makes another bad choice down the road.

And that's the big point here...why is she doing this crap. Hell this one (OM) is history.


After all ...new job new co workers....I'm just waiting for her to come home and start talking about some fat guy at work that makes her laugh. Knowing her track record it won't be long before she stops talking about this guy and OP finds another bunch of text.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

One more thing, after this 2nd strike I would be all up in GPS, VARs and key logger.

Your old lady is high risk....just like mine.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

You do know what a VAR is?


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

Uncertain Man said:


> Thanks. Yes she's said that she didn't have sex with him but she would have had things gone on the way they had. She wasn't flippant about this, it took months of arguing and discussing for her to admit this. But yeah the wrong time, wrong place and she would have gone home with him, though she changes her story on this too.


Who tell's their spouse that they would have slept with someone else if given the opportunity? Seriously, there's absolutely no need for her to tell you this. If she didn't sleep with this other guy and she genuinely wants things to work out between the two of you then she would never have said such a thing. My guess is that she either:

a) slept with him and this is as close as you're going to get to hearing it from her

b) she has such little respect for you that she feels that she can tell you such a hurtful thing even though there really is no need to

c) she wants to end your relationship but is too much a p***y to do it, so she's trying to force you to do it instead

Seriously, I'd consider this to be worse than having a cheating wife who is remorseful and trying to make things work. To me, it sounds like she has no respect for you (for whatever reason(s)), and is not interested in making your marriage work. I feel for you!


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

the guy said:


> One more thing, after this 2nd strike I would be all up in GPS, VARs and key logger.
> 
> Your old lady is high risk....just like mine.


Thanks. Sorry if I missed this but how have you dealt with the situation with your SO if she's like this? Can it be made to work out? 

To answer your other question, I just read about VAR on another thread here. Do people successfully use those things? I don't want to get into a situation where I always feel the need to be watching her or whatever. It just seems not worth it if I have to do that, or maybe I would only do it short term. Not sure yet because I've been checking her accounts and everything, minus her old work acct like I mentioned, but I never thought of more than that besides checking her phone location (which I've done).


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

hubbydude said:


> Who tell's their spouse that they would have slept with someone else if given the opportunity? Seriously, there's absolutely no need for her to tell you this. If she didn't sleep with this other guy and she genuinely wants things to work out between the two of you then she would never have said such a thing. My guess is that she either:
> 
> a) slept with him and this is as close as you're going to get to hearing it from her
> 
> ...


Thanks. To answer your points, she told me because I was very intent on finding out. But what got me was her going from it being an emotional thing all along for months, to her now telling me he was simply hot, young, dtf and so she wanted his attention for those reasons. Her admitting she would have gone with him under the right circumstances came after I pretty much begged her to tell me the truth for a long time and we fought a lot. Even now she goes back and forth on it, just as often saying she would never do that to me, which is how she puts it.

I think she respects me greatly now, and seems terrified of losing me. She was not like that, however, in the aftermath of me finding out when she pretty much went all out trying to insult me and disrespect me. She was very very angry for several months that I found out, but not at all at her coworker who spilled the beans or the other guy, so I don't know. It seemed like she was ready to walk, but now it's 180 from that with her recently asking me to do things in bed to make up for all of it and telling me she wishes I was how I used to be before we met and for a while after (basically I used to sleep around a lot--not sure what to make of it and it's just another aspect of this whole thing that I don't get). But at one point when I was kissing her rear every day trying to keep her from leaving, she treated me pretty bad.

So she has a lot of remorse, but I just can't get a lot of straight talk from her. The honesty part of it hurts, but is at least her telling me how she really felt, especially last night finally admitting to me that if he wasn't hot she wouldn't have spoken to him at all, so it wasn't just emotional support or whatever.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Uncertain,

Your wife is trying to tell you whatever she things will make you happy. First she tried the "it was just emotional" because she thought that would work. Now, she's trying "it wasn't emotional, he was just hot" to see if that works.

You're never going to know about the past without you being able to confirm anything, she'll never tell you anything other than what she thinks will "work".

You've got to give up finding out what happened and decide whether you can live with the uncertainty. If you can, things are good now and probably better than you're likely to find elsewhere. Whatever you've changed that's got her into you now, keep it up. 

I would, however, tell her that since she's been tempted in the past; she'll have to keep herself out of similar situations in the future. And, there will have to be total transparency. If you ever get the "feeling" again, go straight to the VARS.

If you can't deal with it and can't shut up about it, then you have to end it.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Uncertain Man said:


> Thanks. Sorry if I missed this but how have you dealt with the situation with your SO if she's like this? Can it be made to work out?
> 
> To answer your other question, I just read about VAR on another thread here. Do people successfully use those things? I don't want to get into a situation where I always feel the need to be watching her or whatever. It just seems not worth it if I have to do that, or maybe I would only do it short term. Not sure yet because I've been checking her accounts and everything, minus her old work acct like I mentioned, but I never thought of more than that besides checking her phone location (which I've done).




OP - I think you are going the wrong way with this. You are REACTING to her. Your energy is focusing on her and what she did, didn't do, admits, won't admit....that is all irrelevant. Stop putting her in the drivers seat. Stop making your life about her and him. Stop comparing yourself to other guy. 

She told you the important part. YOU weren't there, she needed someone, and he was there. She told you this...this is the key. Have you studied your wife...do you know what really makes her tick...what motivates her? You need to know these things...you won't find out by asking. You find out by watching, observing. 90% of what people say is bull**** anyway...it's what they do or don't do that tells the story. Figure her out.

Stop talking about the other guy. Stop talking about the other guy. You want to *****, moan, whine, wonder, etc....Do that here. Not with her. Ever. Again. 

ALSO....don't talk to her anymore about this guy. You do realize, that the more you ask, the more you plead for info...the less truth you will get ...right?? She is probably trying to figure out what you want to hear to make it go away. Assume what you have heard is all you are going to get. Stop asking....all you are doing is making him appear more important than he really is. 

Lastly...are you as attractive as you can be? Do you work out? Have any extra pounds that need to go? Get on it NOW. You need to make yourself into the guy that she is attracted to. 

Read MMSLP...Married Man Sex Life Primer. Do this now. As in Yesterday..


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Uncertain,
> 
> Your wife is trying to tell you whatever she things will make you happy. First she tried the "it was just emotional" because she thought that would work. Now, she's trying "it wasn't emotional, he was just hot" to see if that works.
> 
> ...


What's got her into me now is a weird combination of things that I would have assumed 6 months ago would lead to divorce. I'm treating her relatively poorly lately, mostly out of exhaustion with the marriage, and now she's into it(?) for some reason. I don't get it at all. 

I also told her my sexual history, trying to get her to open up about her own history specifically with this guy, and she is really into that, totally changed how she sees me, so that's what I'm doing differently. I don't know how to "keep that up" though so I'm really confused even about that part of things.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

If I were you, this would do my head in. She seems to be attracted to you when she's not sure that she can hold on to you, but strays when she feels you aren't meeting her emotional needs.

Maybe she just gets to a point where she's bored in the marriage and starts looking around at what's available. Then it really livens things up for her, she gets to have a great time playing with some guy, and if she gets caught she gets to the shaken up husband who will kiss the ground she walks on for a while, then the husband who wizens up and pulls away and she gets to chase you.

No doubt she'll get bored again, unless you two can grow together a little and stop living so much on the surface. You don't really seem to know each other very well. You're not in each other's heads, which you definitely should be after this long.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

breeze said:


> If I were you, this would do my head in. She seems to be attracted to you when she's not sure that she can hold on to you, but strays when she feels you aren't meeting her emotional needs.
> 
> Maybe she just gets to a point where she's bored in the marriage and starts looking around at what's available. Then it really livens things up for her, she gets to have a great time playing with some guy, and if she gets caught she gets to the shaken up husband who will kiss the ground she walks on for a while, then the husband who wizens up and pulls away and she gets to chase you.
> 
> No doubt she'll get bored again, unless you two can grow together a little and stop living so much on the surface. You don't really seem to know each other very well. You're not in each other's heads, which you definitely should be after this long.


I agree with everything except the last part. We know each other very very well, to the point that we often marvel at how little other couples seem to know each other. My sense, twice now, that something was wrong comes from knowing her so well. This is almost inevitable when you meet in your late teens and then spend every waking moment together.

But this actually, in my opinion, reinforces your first 2 paragraphs which I think are probably true. I think she gets bored and the rest of this stuff follows. 

She also seemed to think I'm some kind of traditionalist until she found out my background, or more of it, and that may have helped a little bit with the boredom. My problem now is not how she's treating me, but whether or not she'll go back to what she did before.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Uncertain Man said:


> I agree with everything except the last part. We know each other very very well, to the point that we often marvel at how little other couples seem to know each other. My sense, twice now, that something was wrong comes from knowing her so well. This is almost inevitable when you meet in your late teens and then spend every waking moment together.
> 
> But this actually, in my opinion, reinforces your first 2 paragraphs which I think are probably true. I think she gets bored and the rest of this stuff follows.
> 
> She also seemed to think I'm some kind of traditionalist until she found out my background, or more of it, and that may have helped a little bit with the boredom. My problem now is not how she's treating me, but whether or not she'll go back to what she did before.


So let me get this straight. When she said this:



Uncertain Man said:


> Thanks. Yes she's said that she didn't have sex with him but she would have had things gone on the way they had. She wasn't flippant about this, it took months of arguing and discussing for her to admit this. But yeah the wrong time, wrong place and she would have gone home with him, though she changes her story on this too.


she was basically admitting that she was willing to cheat on you but somehow didn't. 

You suspect there was another incident in the past. 

You can't trust her if she gets bored in your marriage.

She wants to have start having kids, something that's likely to stress the marriage further.

In her mind right now, you're the bad ass that she's chasing. What happens when the kids come along and that mental image switches from bad ass to stable father figure?


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> So let me get this straight. When she said this: she was basically admitting that she was willing to cheat on you but somehow didn't.
> 
> You suspect there was another incident in the past.
> 
> ...


I agree, plus the fact that I don't want to be a "bad ass." I didn't get married just to live like this, I truly wanted to be a good husband. And I spent years being one. But I felt like I was on my own in it, and when I found out what she'd been up to from her work friend, she treated me even worse. So now I'm behaving a way that makes me feel awful sometimes (I find my history embarrassing now) and she seems to love it. 

So yeah that's why I'm here, and as breeze noted this is the kind of thing that pretty much messes with my head. I want to do the right thing.

What I don't get is WHY she wants this. I worked so hard to leave my past behind, do well for us, and now she wants what I was before. I try explaining to her that that guy I was before would have loved her and then dumped her right away anyway, we'd never have lasted.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Read neuklas and bagdon, two threads that explore how to deep a relationship with a woman whose desire and affection have slumped.

Do you love your wife?

Why haven't you had children? Is this a cause of conflict between you?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Uncertain Man said:


> Thanks. Sorry if I missed this but how have you dealt with the situation with your SO if she's like this? Can it be made to work out?
> 
> To answer your other question, I just read about VAR on another thread here. Do people successfully use those things? I don't want to get into a situation where I always feel the need to be watching her or whatever. It just seems not worth it if I have to do that, or maybe I would only do it short term. Not sure yet because I've been checking her accounts and everything, minus her old work acct like I mentioned, but I never thought of more than that besides checking her phone location (which I've done).


Yes the VAR is a great tool to verify your wife's true intention. Some folks have had the misfortune to find out that they were in a false R and the wayward was buying time when talking to friends and even AP.

I remember one thread were the VAR confirmed that the wayward was truly remorseful when talking to friends and family.

The thing is trust but verify

And it (the confirming) doesn't last for ever. In my case I tracked my old lady big time for a few months but her own actions and huge degree of submission is what lead me to keep her around.

My old lady did a lot of heavy lifting to stick around. Hell it got to a point were she would ask me if I needed any batteries for the VAR:lol:

I mean she turned in reciepts and her time cards form work....left he cell out and broke it off with all her toxic friends. She went all out...tons to help me heal, so I kept her around.

It's been 5 year and I don't even check on her....her own changes with in our marriage is validation enough these days but I'll be honest it took some time for the snooping to wine down. My old lady had nothing to hide so she figured what ever made me happy.

I think one of the biggest consequences my old lady still deals with is the fact a GNO will be out of the question and she is actually cool with that. Hell she had enough GNO to last a phucking life time....I mean it was a way of life for her.

Lets just say I am semi retired from the cheater police


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Uncertain Man said:


> I agree, plus the fact that I don't want to be a "bad ass." I didn't get married just to live like this, I truly wanted to be a good husband. And I spent years being one. But I felt like I was on my own in it, and when I found out what she'd been up to from her work friend, she treated me even worse. So now I'm behaving a way that makes me feel awful sometimes (I find my history embarrassing now) and she seems to love it.


Unfortunately, this seems to be how a lot of women work. The problem for us "good guys" is: can we be happy with a woman who only desires us when we're "bad guys"?. The more I find out about how women's minds work, the less I like them.

I've got a lot of my self-worth tied up in my being a good guy and I'm not willing to compromise that just to get a woman to want to have sex with me. Fortunately, I found a woman who doesn't work that way.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Uncertain Man said:


> plus the fact that I don't want to be a "bad ass." .


News flash.... chick think "bad asses" are attractive!

Sorry to say but some women find a guy sexy when they take control and want to protect whats special to them.....while they ask you to hold their purse.:lol:

Maybe it's just me


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I have a sense that your old lady may think she is on her way out if she doesn't change her tune.

I bet you can get away with all kinds of crazy sh1t in the bedroom she would never let you do before......

Sorry I'm wired different then most!

But what the hell if the oppurtunity is there why not "jump" on it?


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

the guy said:


> I have a sense that your old lady may think she is on her way out if she doesn't change her tune.
> 
> I bet you can get away with all kinds of crazy sh1t in the bedroom she would never let you do before......
> 
> ...


Yes I think this is so, she's worried about being kicked to the curb. I never would have thought of it before but now she knows she's a two time cheater, she says so herself and she did something similar when we were dating (not cheating but suddenly bailing on me). I would have been the most dedicated husband ever if she'd let me stay that way. She didn't know my past because it was truly buried and I never acted that way. Before her I had countless partners, as in we tried to add them up the other day and I had no idea, gross I know.

She has basically demanded I do crazy stuff in the bedroom at this point. I mean she has said she is upset that women in my past got tossed around and I've treated her with kid gloves. She wants ONS sex from me and I don't know how I feel about it, this is my wife. So it's not for me to get away with, she is insisting on it and when I've done things that have challenged her, she complained. I pointed this out last night, she said my job is to ignore her complaints, which seems problematic to me. 

I'm just flying blind right now in terms of what my marriage is versus what I thought it would be.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

the guy said:


> while they ask you to hold their purse.:lol:


NEVER hold her purse!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Read neuklas and bagdon, two threads that explore how to deep a relationship with a woman whose desire and affection have slumped.
> 
> Do you love your wife?
> 
> Why haven't you had children? Is this a cause of conflict between you?


Farsidejunky turned around his marriage. He is around to answer questions, too.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

Uncertain Man said:


> I agree with everything except the last part. We know each other very very well, to the point that we often marvel at how little other couples seem to know each other. My sense, twice now, that something was wrong comes from knowing her so well. This is almost inevitable when you meet in your late teens and then spend every waking moment together.
> 
> But this actually, in my opinion, reinforces your first 2 paragraphs which I think are probably true. I think she gets bored and the rest of this stuff follows.
> 
> She also seemed to think I'm some kind of traditionalist until she found out my background, or more of it, and that may have helped a little bit with the boredom. My problem now is not how she's treating me, but whether or not she'll go back to what she did before.


Yep. When a man is safe and stable and there's no mystery between you, then he can seem boring sexually. She's turned on hearing about past sexual exploits 'cause it paints you in a new light as more of a sexual being. 

There's a lot of confusion on this website about "bad boys" vs. "take charge" guys. You don't have to be an a$$hole to have the kind of energy it takes to attract a woman. You have to be decisive. You have to change things up and initiate sexual novelty. Women don't want men to treat them poorly, they want men to dominate them in the bedroom, and those are two different concepts. 

I wonder if it wouldn't do you some good to read about the DOM / submissive dynamic. Not that your wife is necessarily a submissive, but you get an idea of what a DOM does that turns women on. If you take out the bondage and humiliation but take on the ATTITUDE of a DOM, I think you'd be where you need to be. 

We don't necessarily think of the power dynamic in our sexual life but it can really be huge in terms of attraction.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Uncertain Man said:


> I'm glad we've moved and she's away from him but that also keeps me from knowing anything about what went on. I found out, we were fighting, we moved almost right then without ever knowing what went on which is part of why I'm struggling with it.


Um, just how far away did you move? and have you heard of these things called airplanes?

I think there is so much to this story that has not been aired.

I think you need to not press her for information for awhile and investigate

Your wife is very good at covering her tracks.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Read neuklas and bagdon, two threads that explore how to deep a relationship with a woman whose desire and affection have slumped.
> 
> Do you love your wife?
> 
> Why haven't you had children? Is this a cause of conflict between you?


Well these are the big questions aren't they? Yes I love her without a doubt, but I don't know if we belong together or not. Lust and passion would make me say yes, but practicality is leading me to question it all. I mean the odds of us lasting seem steep though she is a great woman.

We didn't have children yet because we were doing so much in life and it all just got pushed back. We have time and I've gotten her to see it'll be one or 2 children, not 4 or something like she always thought. I know that this is only the case if we fix things, I can't bring kids into a bad marriage.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Uncertain Man said:


> Yes I think this is so, she's worried about being kicked to the curb. I never would have thought of it before but now she knows she's a two time cheater, she says so herself and she did something similar when we were dating (not cheating but suddenly bailing on me). I would have been the most dedicated husband ever if she'd let me stay that way. She didn't know my past because it was truly buried and I never acted that way. Before her I had countless partners, as in we tried to add them up the other day and I had no idea, gross I know.
> 
> *She has basically demanded I do crazy stuff in the bedroom at this point.* I mean she has said she is upset that women in my past got tossed around and I've treated her with kid gloves. She wants ONS sex from me and I don't know how I feel about it, this is my wife. So it's not for me to get away with, she is insisting on it and when I've done things that have challenged her, she complained. I pointed this out last night, she said my job is to ignore her complaints, which seems problematic to me.
> 
> I'm just flying blind right now in terms of what my marriage is versus what I thought it would be.


She is telling you all you know EXCEPT....If she has to tell you to be dominant...then you aren't dominate. Just take charge. Tell her what you want her to do....don't ask. Tell her...in such a way that you expect no discussion...your will just is. If she actually says no (probably won't)...don't respond...just look amused. Like isn't that cute...she said no, like she has a choice. 

It sounds like that is what she is looking for...Take Charge..

BUT....this is not me telling you to hurt or degrade your wife. This is the woman you love and have sworn to protect. Don't go all psycho...baby steps..you'll figure out what she can take. 

It doesn't really matter how you feel about it..Your the leader, this is all your responsibility. Lead. I haven't met a woman...EVER..that wanted to be consulted in the bedroom. They want to be taken. They want the illusion of danger. The illusion of the loss of control.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

firebelly1 said:


> Yep. When a man is safe and stable and there's no mystery between you, then he can seem boring sexually. She's turned on hearing about past sexual exploits 'cause it paints you in a new light as more of a sexual being.
> 
> There's a lot of confusion on this website about "bad boys" vs. "take charge" guys. You don't have to be an a$$hole to have the kind of energy it takes to attract a woman. You have to be decisive. You have to change things up and initiate sexual novelty. Women don't want men to treat them poorly, they want men to dominate them in the bedroom, and those are two different concepts.
> 
> ...


Good points. She has specifically asked me to dominate her and be like I was before, like she assumes I was with all those women. I wasn't one way with all of them, but she has a picture in her head of what she wants. She really asked for it before I told her all this, but now it's a definite thing. I think those other men had given her some of this kind of energy and I was doing the opposite, but now she seems like she's really determined to get me to do those things and really just do what I want. It's a balancing act like I said in another post here, she gets scared and I back down, then the next day she tells me to not back down. Burden's on me as usual to figure it out.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Uncertain Man said:


> Good points. She has specifically asked me to dominate her and be like I was before, like she assumes I was with all those women. I wasn't one way with all of them, but she has a picture in her head of what she wants. She really asked for it before I told her all this, but now it's a definite thing. I think those other men had given her some of this kind of energy and I was doing the opposite, but now she seems like she's really determined to get me to do those things and really just do what I want. It's a balancing act like I said in another post here, she gets scared and I back down, then the next day she tells me to not back down.* Burden's on me as usual to figure it out.*


Boom....Thats it right there.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

MarriedDude said:


> She is telling you all you know EXCEPT....If she has to tell you to be dominant...then you aren't dominate. Just take charge. Tell her what you want her to do....don't ask. Tell her...in such a way that you expect no discussion...your will just is. If she actually says no (probably won't)...don't respond...just look amused. Like isn't that cute...she said no, like she has a choice.
> 
> It sounds like that is what she is looking for...Take Charge..
> 
> ...


Yeah, no I'm a natural at it, I gave it up to be with her. I didn't stop seeing other girls until I'd been dating her for a long time and she wanted me to be serious. I gave up a lot of what I did before because I thought I had to and really she asked me to then. There's a big difference between what an 18-20 yo woman can deal with or thinks she can deal with, and what she can handle now in her 30s, or thinks she can handle. I have no trouble handling women, they always came back to me, I know that sounds bad but it's true and now she wants that back. I'm just not sure what effect it will have on us.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Uncertain Man said:


> Yeah, no I'm a natural at it, I gave it up to be with her. I didn't stop seeing other girls until I'd been dating her for a long time and she wanted me to be serious. *I gave up a lot of what I did before because I thought I had to* and really she asked me to then. There's a big difference between what an 18-20 yo woman can deal with or thinks she can deal with, and what she can handle now in her 30s, or thinks she can handle. I have no trouble handling women, they always came back to me, I know that sounds bad but it's true and now she wants that back. I'm just not sure what effect it will have on us.


Exactly what many many many men do. It pretty much always comes back to haunt them. Guys get comfortable, you find this woman that you truly love and are dedicated to her. You don't want to treat her like a piece of meat. But the problem is....much of what you were like in the beginning is what attracts them to you. 

Most women (NAWALT) in my experience...want to be treated like your toy -in the bedroom. My wife is very strong willed, capable, etc. But when we go to bed at night...she puts on her collar -and..well. There you go.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Uncertain Man said:


> I mean she has said she is upset that women in my past got tossed around and I've treated her with kid gloves.


I can relate to this. With all due respect, get over it and give her what she wants! I know this is an nth of your situation, but every little bit helps. Agree on a safe word and get gritty.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

firebelly1 said:


> Yep. When a man is safe and stable and there's no mystery between you, then he can seem boring sexually. She's turned on hearing about past sexual exploits 'cause it paints you in a new light as more of a sexual being.
> 
> There's a lot of confusion on this website about "bad boys" vs. "take charge" guys. You don't have to be an a$$hole to have the kind of energy it takes to attract a woman. You have to be decisive. You have to change things up and initiate sexual novelty. Women don't want men to treat them poorly, they want men to dominate them in the bedroom, and those are two different concepts.


See, here's the thing: I (and, perhaps, uncertain) don't WANT to dominate a woman in the bedroom (or anywhere else).

I don't WANT to constantly be gaming my wife in order for her to be sexually attracted to me. 

I want a wife who has free will, who's an equal partner, loves me, loves to have sex with me, blows me a couple of times a week because my happiness is important to her, respects me, is funny, talented, interesting and a great person to raise a family with. That's exactly who I've been married to for 25 years.

I have no interest in a trained dog that I can condition into sexually pleasing me.

Sure, hot sex is nice, but it's not everything.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I think the question still needs to be ask....what was attractive about this punk that wants a married women.

Also I would like to add that I bet the OM would treat her like a women and not like a wife.

UN I think you need to find your old self, so.... #1 tell your old lady what the consequences are if this crap happens again cuz you sound like a guy that doesn't have a problem getting women. Chicks dig confident guys, plus your old lady can be replaced and #2 give her some of the good stuff women want so stop treating her like a wife in the bed room.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Buddy400 said:


> I have no interest in a trained dog that I can condition into sexually pleasing me.
> 
> Sure, hot sex is nice, but it's not everything.


Having sex with a dog is phucking sick and should never be mentioned on this site again.

IMHO sex is the glue that keeps this marriage business together....so ya when my old lady wants bang my brains out I won't turn her down.

My dog...by the way is very well trained....will have to go some were else for that kind of thing.

Thread jack over!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Sorry UM I couldn't resist, I hope my sick humor can bring you a smile in these trying times with your old lady.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

the guy said:


> I think the question still needs to be ask....what was attractive about this punk that wants a married women.
> 
> Also I would like to add that I bet the OM would treat her like a women and not like a wife.
> 
> UN I think you need to find your old self, so.... #1 tell your old lady what the consequences are if this crap happens again cuz you sound like a guy that doesn't have a problem getting women. Chicks dig confident guys, plus your old lady can be replaced and #2 give her some of the good stuff women want so stop treating her like a wife in the bed room.


I don't know what she liked about him. I admit checking over fb and seeing his pictures. I don't get the appeal at all but I know he's something she liked. It could simply be that she liked that he was young and also was pursuing a married woman. The guy 10 years back was the same way and ended up marrying one of the other women he was sleeping with at the job, but then of course my wife was his same age.

I never got to find out if it was true that she shot him down when he put his hands on her, she may not have for all I know. Because we moved I just didn't get to do much investigation in terms of figuring out what went on exactly. A few months ago she said she would call people from work and have them tell me the truth, but to me that would have been both embarrassing and unreliable. 

Now part of what I've done with her is make clear that I won't deal with this again. So yeah I admit I told her directly that I would drop her if she does this again. I can't go thru this process again so I told her I didn't want to ever get even a hint of that feeling I get (hyperventilation and anxiety, combined with a light-headedness, both this time and 10 years ago even when I had no idea why). 

One thing that helps is that I still get regular offers from women today and had a stalker two years ago (turned out to be two of them). One thing that has always surprised me is how many women have no concern if a man is married, I admit I thought men were this way but not women, or not as much. But I would hate to start over even if most women have an interest in me and some go above and beyond. 

So anyway I feel good in terms of having options and having put my foot down, but I feel bad even having to say this stuff to my wife.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Some of the hardest challenges to deal with can bring the greatest rewards.

The last thing you want to do is bury it and sweep in under the rug....trust me!


Both of you need to face this issue head on and deal with it...cuz it only gets worse if you guys bury your head in the sand.....


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Hey UM, I never thought i would read " one thing that helps" and" had a stalker" in the same sentence.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

All of this is reminding me of something that HFoL's husband said to her (she mentioned it in one of her threads)... I'm paraphrasing here, but it was something like... "If you expect me to stick around, you'd better f*ck me good and hard."

Or something like that.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

OP, let me tell you a story about my experience with workplace dalliances. Twenty years ago I was a consultant hired by a company as a project manager over a group of their regular employees. There was a man under my supervision who started making personal overtures that set my “radar” off. Back in those days I did have good boundaries however I was more naïve in my thinking and did not “shut him down hard”. I was “too nice” about it. Yes, I did not engage him in non-work conversations, ignored his overtures for personal conversations, made sure I was never alone with him, etc. … in other words passive (“nice”) avoidance methods. Stupidly, I thought I was protecting my job.

Anyway, eventually I found out that this guy had been telling other employees “stories” about “us” and our imagined “connection”. One person in my group even asked to talk to me privately and asked if “something was going on” between me and this man. I was gob-smacked. However, I did learn a much needed lesson. And that is to say “stop or I am reporting you to human resources” at the first sign of an inappropriate overture. No more Mrs. Nice Girl after that experience. And yes, in this case the man was a bit of a nut job.

*What you OP can learn from my experience is that your wife’s co-workers likely had ample evidence* to conclude that your wife and the OM had an "intimate relationship" going on. I am not saying that they had a PA (who can know?); however it is highly likely that they had something inappropriate going on between them because their co-workers saw it.

Always trust your gut, it has screamed at you in the past and your wife's story is "all over the place". Your wife needs to tell you the truth, she owes you that.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Big time trickle truth, and its just the tip of the iceberg.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Red Sonja said:


> OP, let me tell you a story about my experience with workplace dalliances. Twenty years ago I was a consultant hired by a company as a project manager over a group of their regular employees. There was a man under my supervision who started making personal overtures that set my “radar” off. Back in those days I did have good boundaries however I was more naïve in my thinking and did not “shut him down hard”. I was “too nice” about it. Yes, I did not engage him in non-work conversations, ignored his overtures for personal conversations, made sure I was never alone with him, etc. … in other words passive (“nice”) avoidance methods. Stupidly, I thought I was protecting my job.
> 
> Anyway, eventually I found out that this guy had been telling other employees “stories” about “us” and our imagined “connection”. One person in my group even asked to talk to me privately and asked if “something was going on” between me and this man. I was gob-smacked. However, I did learn a much needed lesson. And that is to say “stop or I am reporting you to human resources” at the first sign of an inappropriate overture. No more Mrs. Nice Girl after that experience. And yes, in this case the man was a bit of a nut job.
> 
> ...



:iagree:

but am going to go further and say that spouses that actsuspiciously should NOT be trusted. Perhaps you should tell your wife just that - I don't trust you.

put the baby on hold, on MAJOR hold. Frankly I also think that it is not smart to truly commit to somone like your wife. someone that seems to have the habit of forming 'too close' friendships with those of the opposite sex, or seems to be 'too drawn' to other "hot" people in their environment. stay legally committed to someone like that? for a time, maybe. stay faithful to them? sure, as long as you're married to them or as long as they stay faithful to you. but don't make your emotiojnal commitment to them 100% ; always keep in your mind a live option that the marriage to them could end, perhaps even in the near future. that will protect you emotionally, and they have not earned that 100% emotional commitment in any case. not if they keep seeking others to "be there for them" because you were not. 

know that if your marriage ends you will be OK. you need leverage over her psychologically. I have to allow for the uncertainties inherent in just how accurate a polygraph is - but - if I were you I would not hold off much longer in at least hinting that "gee, maybe that's the only way I'll ever really know if you're a ***** honey." maybe just to gauge her reaction. and if she flares into resentment or yelling or whatever, let it roll off your back. I think your wife is full of sh*t. You should trust her about as far as you can throw her, as the saying goes.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I don't WANT to constantly be gaming my wife in order for her to be sexually attracted to me.


Gentleman, this sums up most of our problems right here. I felt the same way once, still do to an extent, the secondary reason I warn other men off marriage. 

Society has led most of us to believe that you get married and all the games stop. Be nice, cooperative, and provide and you will have her heart forever. After all, that was the point of all those vows and the fancy wedding, right? It is all a bunch of *lies*.

You have got to run game on woman until she completely shrivels up. Doesn't matter if you just pulled her out of a bar or have been dealing with her for 30 years. It is absolutely exhausting and sucks Ebola infested monkey balls.

:rant:


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

nuclearnightmare said:


> :iagree:
> 
> but am going to go further and say that spouses that actsuspiciously should NOT be trusted. Perhaps you should tell your wife just that - I don't trust you.
> 
> ...


Yeah, this unfortunately is where I'm at right now. I've made clear to her that I'm not 100% on us, that I'm willing to move on if it came to that, and I'd be just fine. I was the guy who was just totally devoted to her from the get-go and she really took advantage of it. She said so herself and admitted that much of what she's done she did because she thought I'd always put up with it. She also always felt that she was the reacher in our marriage, paradoxically given her taking me for granted, and has spent a lot of time trying to prove to herself that she can keep me on a leash. So yes I agree totally and yet I feel terrible being married and yet knowing that there is a decent chance I'll cut her loose in the future and be just fine. 

I've made it very very clear to her though that if I get even a hint of that feeling that she's cheating again, we're done. Not the dramatic, ongoing attempts to fix things for several months like before, but me confirming what I suspect, even partially, and then me filing the next day. I'm not doing it to be an a-hole, though it feels bad, but because I just could never go through this stuff yet again. The real difference between now and before is that I know I can do better, I know I'd be more than fine with someone else or on my own, playing the field like I used to when we first met. She knows this too and has treated me really well since.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Ripper said:


> Gentleman, this sums up most of our problems right here. I felt the same way once, still do to an extent, the secondary reason I warn other men off marriage.
> 
> Society has led most of us to believe that you get married and all the games stop. Be nice, cooperative, and provide and you will have her heart forever. After all, that was the point of all those vows and the fancy wedding, right? It is all a bunch of *lies*.
> 
> ...


This was my problem when I first became aware of all this going on a few months back, it felt exhausting. But by being aware of the truth about things, though it hurts, it's actually become much much easier and even natural over time. If you believe one thing and then act according to something else it really does wear you out. But if you know that your actions reflect who you are, it gets much easier, or at least I've found that it does. 

Edit: In many ways I'm also returning to who I was before, which helps a lot. Much of being married and the doting husband was unnatural for me, and she of course made me pay for it over time.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Too bad it had to happen this way to open your eyes. Now they're open, browse Deejo's sticky thread in the men's section. It should help you find some resources to get you back to your old self. 

Best


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Okay so I'm back and it's been a weird couple of weeks. My head is spinning. She has basically laid it out that she wants me to be what I used to be. I'm just baffled because when we met I was the one sleeping around a lot, high a lot, parties and all that. I was also 19. I was also a huge jerk and I worked hard to get away from that. Now she wants that jerk back, I've been boring for a long time. It happened over time, for a long time I was a good combination of jerk and go-getter, she says.

We talked about a lot of things and she said she wants the old me mixed with my current ambition apparently, wants us to be rich and such, she wants to run a non-profit which I have plenty of experience in in addition to my entrepreneurial background. I think I can be more of what she wants. It's the rest that gets me and why I'm back here again.

So she wants to be partners in making all this happen. I get that, I think honestly her model in all this is my dad and step mom. They're also jerks though. But the truly bizarre thing to me, which I need advice on, is my wife thinks that if it pushes me to be like I was, she is fine with me seeing other women. 

I feel weird writing that and I don't know how to process it. What does that mean? I assumed immediately it meant she wants to see others, here's the big admission she cheated or wants to cheat, but no. She has been 100% transparent in all this and doesn't want any of that, I've been able to verify all but the guy from years back. She means she is actually okay with me seeing other women if I can be safe and not rub her nose in it. She let me know her greatest fear is me leaving her and asked only that I not fall for some other woman, which seems a just out there idea to me. So I've spent the last few days trying to process this, since it came out on Fri. night. 

What does all this mean? What is going on in her head? She seems happier than ever since this talk. I'm really confused right now.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Don't have any children with her as of yet. You'll complicate your situation. You said that she wants you both to be rich, but wants to run a non-profit organization. Non-profits don't make any money; ask Suzy Orman.

She also is ok with you seeing other women. Her co-worker is mistaken as her significant other in an event. You have so many red flags here. She wants you to be the 19 year old reckless individual. These are disturbing factors.

Her behavior is very suspicious. You definitely need to sort this one out. You need time to observe her and know what you want in life.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Roselyn said:


> Don't have any children with her as of yet. You'll complicate your situation. You said that she wants you both to be rich, but wants to run a non-profit organization. Non-profits don't make any money; ask Suzy Orman.
> 
> She also is ok with you seeing other women. Her co-worker is mistaken as her significant other in an event. You have so many red flags here. She wants you to be the 19 year old reckless individual. These are disturbing factors.
> 
> Her behavior is very suspicious. You definitely need to sort this one out. You need time to observe her and know what you want in life.


The non-profit would be a genuine effort on her part to change things in her field, not to get rich in and of itself. I'd be the money maker, which was always the plan but now she seems to have really high expectations. She thinks I've lost sight of this, don't have enough ambition.

We won't have children easily and may end up adopting so the timing isn't too hard to control right now, that process can take a bit. 

She doesn't want me to be that exact 19 year old again, she wants me to have some kind of edge I used to have but don't now, which I will admit.

I have to say I was 99% on board with her until she got to the sex thing, which she seems to see as some kind of carrot to get me going. Like if I can deliver her this life, she'll never ask questions if I stay out some night. Just out of left field.

Edit: I should add that this also seems tied to the changes she wants in the bedroom which were discussed up-thread. She seems to see this as some kind of dominance thing on my part. But what she wants me to be, not what I want to be if that makes sense.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Uncertain Man said:


> Yeah, this unfortunately is where I'm at right now. I've made clear to her that I'm not 100% on us, that I'm willing to move on if it came to that, and I'd be just fine. I was the guy who was just totally devoted to her from the get-go and she really took advantage of it. She said so herself and admitted that much of what she's done she did because she thought I'd always put up with it. She also always felt that she was the reacher in our marriage, paradoxically given her taking me for granted, and has spent a lot of time trying to prove to herself that she can keep me on a leash. So yes I agree totally and yet I feel terrible being married and yet knowing that there is a decent chance I'll cut her loose in the future and be just fine.
> 
> I've made it very very clear to her though that if I get even a hint of that feeling that she's cheating again, we're done. Not the dramatic, ongoing attempts to fix things for several months like before, but me confirming what I suspect, even partially, and then me filing the next day. I'm not doing it to be an a-hole, though it feels bad, but because I just could never go through this stuff yet again. The real difference between now and before is that I know I can do better, I know I'd be more than fine with someone else or on my own, playing the field like I used to when we first met. She knows this too and has treated me really well since.


She's setting high expectations for you. Are you setting the same high expectations of her? Your expectations of her is rather low in my opinion. The high ambition goal seems to be one way; yours. I won't go through the same hoops as you. I am a woman. I go through hoops for me and not for anyone else. I am 56 years old, a career woman, and ongoing 35 years in my marriage. I expect a two way street for my husband and I. Uncertain Man, don't be a slave for any woman. You're too intelligent to fall for goals set by your wife. You deserve a better life. Make one for yourself.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Roselyn said:


> She's setting high expectations for you. Are you setting the same high expectations of her? Your expectations of her is rather low in my opinion. The high ambition goal seems to be one way; yours. I won't go through the same hoops as you. I am a woman. I go through hoops for me and not for anyone else. I am 56 years old, a career woman, and ongoing 35 years in my marriage. I expect a two way street for my husband and I. Uncertain Man, don't be a slave for any woman. You're too intelligent to fall for goals set by your wife. You deserve a better life. Make one for yourself.


Yeah I know you're right. I just am trying to understand her anymore. I thought being cheated on would be the worst thing in the world for a spouse and she's telling me to do it? I don't get it. I work in a field with a ton of young women and many of them don't seem to care if a man is married these days, and my wife knows that. She's always freaked out in the past when one of them even looks at me, despite me never having been interested. 

And now she's pushing me to do it. Why? Just for some image she wants, or to feel like I control her somehow? I don't understand her right now and I don't know how this is going to turn out for us. But I understand everything you're telling me and I appreciate it.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Uncertain Man said:


> And now she's pushing me to do it. Why?


Because she wants a "free pass" for a current affair or for an affair she wants to start with her co-worker. It's a tit-for-tat game while she continues to have her life financed by you.

Cake Eater.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

She wants you to sleep with other women so you will then be lowered to her level. The playing field will the be even in her eyes.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Uncertain Man said:


> Okay so I'm back and it's been a weird couple of weeks. My head is spinning. She has basically laid it out that she wants me to be what I used to be. I'm just baffled because when we met I was the one sleeping around a lot, high a lot, parties and all that. I was also 19. I was also a huge jerk and I worked hard to get away from that. Now she wants that jerk back, I've been boring for a long time. It happened over time, for a long time I was a good combination of jerk and go-getter, she says.
> 
> We talked about a lot of things and she said she wants the old me mixed with my current ambition apparently, wants us to be rich and such, she wants to run a non-profit which I have plenty of experience in in addition to my entrepreneurial background. I think I can be more of what she wants. It's the rest that gets me and why I'm back here again.
> 
> ...


This is a pre-cursor to the "I want an open marriage" discussion. This reads as a pretty big red flag to me. She's looking to assuage some guilt that she's been carrying around for a while.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> This is a pre-cursor to the "I want an open marriage" discussion. This reads as a pretty big red flag to me. She's looking to assuage some guilt that she's been carrying around for a while.


I mean... COME ON, MAN... you're pressing her for details about a relationship that she had w/ someone w/ whom she admits she "would've had sex if it had let to that"... and then she starts to steer the conversation toward how she wants you to be a different person?!? And now she wants you to sleep w/ other women?!?

Are you seriously buying all of this?


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> I mean... COME ON, MAN... you're pressing her for details about a relationship that she had w/ someone w/ whom she admits she "would've had sex if it had let to that"... and then she starts to steer the conversation toward how she wants you to be a different person?!? And now she wants you to sleep w/ other women?!?
> 
> Are you seriously buying all of this?


I'm really confused. She's saying now she never would have slept with that guy. I've been able to verify that since in what he wrote to her. I guess what she meant was she was in a place where cheating was a real possibility, but never met anyone she would have considered it with. She wants the old me apparently, more than anything. I've verified that in what she wrote to her friends around that time and it jibes with what she's said lately.

I worry though about what could happen in the future. I worry she doesn't love me if she's willing to let me do something like that. Or even think it of me. I don't get the sense that she wants me to do it, I get the sense she feels unprotected somehow and wants the old me back to protect her again. I don't know how it all hangs together but that's my strong sense now. But I also admit I worry that she'll ask for the same for herself sometime and the truth will come out that she wants sex from some guy or other. I worry also that she could grow to resent me the way I resent her if this stuff keeps up.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Uncertain Man said:


> I'm really confused. She's saying now she never would have slept with that guy. I've been able to verify that since in what he wrote to her. I guess what she meant was she was in a place where cheating was a real possibility, but never met anyone she would have considered it with. She wants the old me apparently, more than anything. I've verified that in what she wrote to her friends around that time and it jibes with what she's said lately.
> 
> I worry though about what could happen in the future. I worry she doesn't love me if she's willing to let me do something like that. Or even think it of me. I don't get the sense that she wants me to do it, I get the sense she feels unprotected somehow and wants the old me back to protect her again. I don't know how it all hangs together but that's my strong sense now. But I also admit I worry that she'll ask for the same for herself sometime and the truth will come out that she wants sex from some guy or other. I worry also that she could grow to resent me the way I resent her if this stuff keeps up.



Perhaps you should question if you want to be in a relationship of that type. Studies have shown that most men said that they would be okay with their wife sleeping with another man, but only a few actually can live with it. Do you want to head down that path? If you do, make the rules clear, that it does not give her permission to sleep around. If that is your boundary, then she should respect that, as her boundary is it is okay for you to personally sleep around. Also she has to take account that you might build an emotional attachment with someone. Your chances are 4 out of 5 if statistics can be trusted. Sex is a powerful bonding experience, and it is biologically made that way for couples to stay together long enough to raise an offspring. Some people can compartmentalize that whole aspect. But for the majority of people it will create a bond, especially if you do not stay guarded. So even if she admits that she is okay with it, chances once the reality happens, she might not be able to get over it. It falls on you if you want to risk it or not.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Mr.Fisty said:


> Perhaps you should question if you want to be in a relationship of that type. Studies have shown that most men said that they would be okay with their wife sleeping with another man, but only a few actually can live with it. Do you want to head down that path? If you do, make the rules clear, that it does not give her permission to sleep around. If that is your boundary, then she should respect that, as her boundary is it is okay for you to personally sleep around. Also she has to take account that you might build an emotional attachment with someone. Your chances are 4 out of 5 if statistics can be trusted. Sex is a powerful bonding experience, and it is biologically made that way for couples to stay together long enough to raise an offspring. Some people can compartmentalize that whole aspect. But for the majority of people it will create a bond, especially if you do not stay guarded. So even if she admits that she is okay with it, chances once the reality happens, she might not be able to get over it. It falls on you if you want to risk it or not.


I don't want it at all. I don't really see the point of it and I don't get what she sees in it. It seems like a constant hassle for the people involved, even if none of the obvious problems arise. I don't get why she'd ever want that for either of us. 

Her work friend texted her in the middle of the night last night. My wife had gone to bed but her phone was out and I checked to see if it was something I should wake her for. This is standard for us.

So it was her work friend texting my wife and one other coworker from their work group. She'd just found a woman's skirt in her husband's business trip laundry. Apparently the guy has been flying to a given city 3 times a year to see a woman. Crazy to live that way I think. I don't get it. 

Troubled marriages are weird, I remember that same work friend who texted was after some husband or other at a holiday party last week, the husband of another coworker. I just don't want that for us and I don't get why my wife would want it either, for me or for both of us.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Uncertain, 

I'm a bit disoriented with your thread. Correct me if I'm wrong? Your marriage hasn't exactly been what you and your wife would want it to be. Your wife had an attraction to a work colleague but didn't want to follow through on making it a relationship. Through your recent talks, she informed you of this and is asking you to take on the leadership role in the relationship, in and outside of the bedroom, so she can always have an attraction to you, her husband. Do I have the facts? If I do, what's your problem with her request? Is she not attractive to you? 

BTW, have you read brother member Athol's book? It's a quick read. I suggest you do, it may explain quite a bit. The Married Man Sex Life Primer 
It's not about how to have sex. It's about taking your role the in relationship. 

Married Man Sex Life Forum

Best


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

She sounds like a cuckquean. She may want to prove to other females your worth. It is like cuckholding, except for women. Actually it is closer to hot wife lifestyle. My female friend is this. She loves watching her boyfriend act like a stud. Or she wants an open marriage to explore other men and relationship types. 

I guess the point I am making is that you might have a difference in lifestyle preferences. You may love your wife, but she may really be incompatible with you. You both may have to re-evaluate what you want in a marriage. One of you will have to bend, or your pretty much at a crossroad.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

I'm sorry to say that it looks like your marriage is over. From what you say, you can't and won't agree to open up your marriage. Yet that's what your wife wants. Where do you go from here?

Do you realize how difficult it's going to be to live a life together, knowing she wants to date others? Which leads to the thought that maybe she will date others, keeping it secret from you. Or likely already has, which is why she's looking for a new agreement.

I think she's lost attraction to you and that's why she's talking about getting the "old you" back because she's grasping to find a way to be attracted to you.

She doesn't look like she wants to settle into routine married life. She wants to date yet wants the security marriage provides. As somebody said a few posts back, she's a cake eater.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

anchorwatch said:


> Uncertain,
> 
> I'm a bit disoriented with your thread. Correct me if I'm wrong? Your marriage hasn't exactly been what you and your wife would want it to be. Your wife had an attraction to a work colleague but didn't want to follow through on making it a relationship. Through your recent talks, she informed you of this and is asking you to take on the leadership role in the relationship, in and outside of the bedroom, so she can always have an attraction to you, her husband. Do I have the facts? If I do, what's your problem with her request? Is she not attractive to you?
> 
> ...


The issue I've returned for, the problem, is that she told me Friday night she wants me to see other women. Some here are saying it's just a sign she wants an open marriage, which was also my first suspicion. But she is saying that's not the case, she wants me to be what I used to be, or more like that. She doesn't want to sleep with men, she wants to have them do what she wants, which for her doesn't include sex. She wants male hangers-on who want sex but who won't get it.

But she says that men always want sex on the side, which has been her experience and mine, and she says she wants me to have that. My family also has had a lot of that going on over the years, my dad picks up 20 year olds now and then and my wife saw this last year, which led to some embarrassment. My work brings me into contact with all kinds of women. In the past some have pursued me and my wife wants me to not turn them down as I always have before, or I guess more accurately, not always turn them down, consider it a possibility as long as no emotion is involved. 

So I'm uncomfortable with this whole turn of events. And yes my thread is disorienting because I feel disoriented to say the least. I've been using the Athol K kind of method and the thread stickied on the men's section as recommended, though not Athol's book, and it has been very effective and does bring me closer to what I was. But I had no expectation that it would lead to her telling me to see women on the side as long as I stayed safe, didn't embarrass her and promised not to leave her for one of them. 

My wife is a stunning woman so there is no issue of attraction on my side, and we've always had a great sex life with her initiating as often as I do. But she wants some combination of me as I was when we met, pretty rough, and what I am now. She also wants me more ambitious and less altruistic, while helping her on the altruism side by aiding her in establishing a non-profit for her to run, which is in my capabilities and background, but just adds to my confusion. 

She sees us as some kind of power couple I guess, she wants money and power but also to change the world, but she knows I've been questioning us quite a bit and she's somehow trying to make it worth my while with all this, but I'm really just confused.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I think your wife has been watching way too much television.


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

What ever is going on in her mind it sure does not sound like your marriage is on stable ground. I personally would never go along with a open marriage myself but I can see how others would find that attractive. I have to agree with the others it kind of sounds like your marriage is at a breaking point. I mean what happens if you don't do what she is requesting you to do? Will she still follow through with having these other men around her? How long would you put up with that. Then the issue of the OM she likes that would really make it difficult for me. I think if it was me I would sit her down and tell her how you feel about what she has asked. If you can't both come up with a compromise that works for both of you then maybe seeing a lawyer would be a good idea.

Clay


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Uncertain,

She envisions some sort of fantasy 'House of Cards' couple? If you agree, then that is what your relationship will be, a house of cards. It will never last, it will never work. Just by you agreeing to such a fantasy, you'll lose value as a husband, a lover, a partner, a mentor, and as a protector because you abdicate all those roles. That makes you less attractive, not more. Not just by showing that you're willing to share your marriage, but by showing you're willing to compromise what makes you the man you are. That is what gives you your value. That is why your woman should want to be with only you. A man with a sense of self-worth does not compromise who he is just to please others. There is nothing wrong in becoming a better man, one that your woman wants to be with. There is something wrong in losing your values to try to keep her. 

IMHO, If I were you, I'd shut this fantasy down quick. Every day you consider this request, you hesitate, you lose value. No more questions or discussions about how things would work out. I'd tell her I'm not interested in sharing my marriage. I am interested in creating a satisfying life and a better relationship for both. Period. Ball in her court. No third choice. I can't say if you can save this or not. I can say that if you compromise you'll lose for certain. Never compromise your values or your boundaries. Define them, live by them. 

Best


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> I think your wife has been watching way too much television.


House of Cards, anyone?

"Hey, let's get powerful, step on people to get there, screw anyone we want, come back home and share a cigarette by our dark dining room window. Maybe eventually, one of us will be President!"


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Gabriel said:


> House of Cards, anyone?
> 
> "Hey, let's get powerful, step on people to get there, screw anyone we want, come back home and share a cigarette by our dark dining room window. Maybe eventually, one of us will be President!"


She loves that show, it's true. The irony is she hates those characters with a passion. Every show like that we watch, she waits for them to get their comeuppance. Anyway, those two characters, from what I can tell, are my parents and to a lesser extent, her grandparents. My issue is I thought we were getting away from that, not intentionally moving toward it. But I think for her the reality of choosing a different life has become a shock in the sense of what material things we've given up to make that choice. So I'm worried she's rethinking it and trying to drag me along with.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Uhhh...

Dude, whatever. Just get it all in writing.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I'm glad you are coming to this realization. Time to stop it. It's one thing to be decisive, ambitious, etc, but to ask you to be a slime ball (don't get me wrong, that's exactly what she's asking you to do) is to say she doesn't have much of a moral code. Maybe ask yourself if this is someone you can have a future with.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/14963-boundaries-men.html


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## tryingpatience (May 7, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Uhhh...
> 
> Dude, whatever. Just get it all in writing.


Seriously do if you go down this path. Too much drama for me. This thread becomes so hard to read. Not sure why you would want to be part of it.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Ok, I get that she wants you to be edgier and a bad boy, more like you were when she met you.

*But to encourage you to sleep with other women?* That is seriously messed up. I have no problems with people who want to have an open marriage (personally, I couldn't do it) AS LONG AS they are already in a healthy marriage, have discussed it at length, have set boundaries, and know what they are getting into. Even with all those caveats, it's often a disaster.

She is pushing you to sleep around in a very unhealthy way. I agree with others -- she is trying to assuage her guilt and then throw YOU into the doghouse.

Also, her wanting men to be "hangers-on", lavishing attention on her without her actually putting out (how long do you think THAT will last once YOU start sleeping around?) is seriously unhealthy thinking in a marriage.

Personally, I think it's time to get into some intensive counseling, or pull the plug on this marriage. Whatever you do, do NOT get her preggers right now.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

She's been trying to help her colleague with her husband cheating and I think it's hitting home for my wife at this point. It was crazy to be typing my update on here a couple of days ago and right then the text came thru about him cheating. 

My wife has been incredibly clingy these last two days. More than her usual, which is a lot. She's often been the clinger type while I'm the kind who prefers to be left alone at least some of the time, which leads to obvious problems. But this is way more than usual. I've always tucked her in at night (we met young and it started then) and she asks me to never leave her. I think the reality of what she's asking of me is becoming clear to her.

I get what people are saying here. I'm not totally convinced that she plans an open marriage or that she cheated physically. I think she knows that I can leave her unlike what I believed for most of our marriage, leave her and be fine. I can find someone new pretty quickly or not at all. I think she realizes what she's done in the past is a bigger deal than she's admitted, and that I know it now. So I don't think at this point she's trying to escalate things so much as to hold onto me somehow. I think she fears turning 40 in a few years and being alone for the first time.

So I'm not exactly sure of what to do now. I'm angry at her and resentful, but I still am not ready to call the whole thing off. We're not on our last leg by any measure, in comparison to marriages like her coworker's. We're better off than many supposedly healthy marriages. I do think we need to do something to restore a normal healthy way of interacting to our marriage and I think she's going about it all wrong. I'm just trying to figure out what her thought process. 

Those who believe she feels guilty and is trying to change that probably have a point, but I also think she dreams of having more and she knows that she won't find another man who can make that happen the way I can. So I have to decide how to fix this, if at all. It's just such a weird situation to be in and not one I ever thought would happen, and people here have mentioned how strange this is. I'm sure part of it is my writing and my confusion about things, but a lot is also the situation itself. So I guess I need to figure this all out and weigh my options, including what to do if I decide to split with her. I'm just not ready to make that jump yet. Ditto for staying together, there's a lot to figure out right now.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I think you are spending way too much energy trying to figure out what your wife thinks.

I am really not trying to be flippant by saying this.

You should do what you think is right. Period. 

Your wife is all over the place. She does not know what she wants. Do you?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I agree. You want to let your wife lead you down this crap hole?

What do you want, and offer her the choice to be part of that marriage or not.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Uncertain,

This is a deep game.

She wants to be dominated. She likes the idea of her husband as the big powerful guy just talking what he wants from her (and whoever else he might want it from). I don't think she's trying to cover for her own indiscretions (though it might well end up causing one or two). 

She's turned on by bad, powerful, sexually desirable guys. It's her fantasy. It seems a lot more interesting than real life. It may not work out for her in the end, but the drama seems cool. 

The problem is, you don't want any of this. If you're the man she wants you to be, you won't be the man that *you* want to be (I think it's a Lyle Lovett song "If I were the man you wanted, I would not be the man that I am").

If you're not interested in playing the games to get her hot for you, then I'd get out.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

Uncertain Man- Instead of wallowing in uncertainty about what your wife is thinking, you need to be decisive and tell your wife that if she wants to go down the open marriage road, then it's time to get a divorce.

Tell her you're committed to her and your marriage and that you will not allow others to enter your marriage. And that you won't tolerate other men flirting with her (let alone having sex with her) and that's the way it's going to be.

If she won't commit to that, then you're done. Maybe she'll be disappointed that she won't be able to cake-eat, but I'll bet at least she'll admire and be attracted to your decisiveness and resolve. Maybe she'll even be more attracted to the new firm, strong, take-no-crap husband than she was to the "old you."


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

So, in "House of Cards" the wife runs a non-profit, right? 

Your wife wants to live *that* life instead of the one she has.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

You used to be just a schlub. That didn't attract her at all.

Now, you're dominant. She knows what a sex machine you were when you met. You're being dominant now. Which gets her hot. Which makes her vulnerable.

So, you have your choice: 

1) Make your wife vulnerable. She'll desire you more.

2) Make your wife secure. She'll lose her desire for you. 

It's up to you to choose.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Don Draper: Let me ask you something, what do women want?

Roger Sterling: Who cares?


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Buddy400 said:


> So, in "House of Cards" the wife runs a non-profit, right?
> 
> Your wife wants to live *that* life instead of the one she has.


Man, even THAT part is straight from the show....


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> You used to be just a schlub. That didn't attract her at all.
> 
> Now, you're dominant. She knows what a sex machine you were when you met. You're being dominant now. Which gets her hot. Which makes her vulnerable.
> 
> ...


But doesn't this seem extreme to you? I worry she's just totally lost her sense of what marriage should be. She's been involved with these organizations for years, so that part is actually possible. For me the issue is why she'd want to go in this direction to begin with. I worry she's losing her sense of who we are. I get that people are telling me to just go with what works for me, stick to my values, but I want to try to salvage things if I can.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Uncertain,
> 
> This is a deep game.
> 
> ...


What do you mean when you say it could cause an indiscretion or two? What could happen?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Has she read Fifty Shades Of Gray by any chance?

Her age means she's reaching her peak sexually.

Its one thing for her to suggest you mess with other women, its another for her to really experience it. Especially, since she is jealous of other women. I think she is also insecure. She probably thinks you miss going through numerous women.

Really, you need to download the mmslp book at amazon. Current progressive thoughts on what women say they want is seriously negated by their biology. 

Be confident and have fun with it. Your revelation of your background has made you even more of a catch for her. By the way its nothing to be ashamed of.

You might try letting her know sometimes when a woman comes onto you and how you forcefully shut hem down. Proceed with caution on that tack as you guage her reaction to that.

If you look in the sex section, you will find you are being very lucky.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Uncertain Man said:


> What do you mean when you say it could cause an indiscretion or two? What could happen?


Well, if you got into the power couple mode and you were seeing other women, that would make it more likely that she'd end up doing something.

I don't think that's her motivation though.

Basically, if you go for the "dominant" thing, is that what you want? Would you be willing to keep it up indefinitely? Because you'd have to.

I don't think you want to. I think you were happier being the man you were before and just want your wife to be attracted to you for that. But, she's not going to be attracted to that man. So, you've got to choose.

I'd choose looking for a woman who likes me for being what I want to be. That's tougher than it seems.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> Has she read Fifty Shades Of Gray by any chance?
> 
> Her age means she's reaching her peak sexually.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Yes she's definitely insecure and definitely at her sexual peak. And yes she told me the other night that she knows what I want more than anything is to see other women. She says all men want that and she sees me as more like that than most of them. She also watched my father pick up a 20 yo last holidays and asked a lot about that and found that it runs in my family, which she brought up again recently. She sees this as inevitable somehow though she's the one who has had trouble being completely loyal.

I've read some of Athol's stuff just as background though we've never had any sexual lack in our marriage. She even said when we were at our worst that she knew she needed to never deny me in that area and honestly she may have the higher drive between us. I know he addresses more than just a lack of sex for married men, but overall that seems to be his focus. It's just never been a problem for me, she initiates at least as often as I do. She initiated first thing this morning despite being late to her job and then texted me throughout the day about it.

I'm not ashamed of my background so much as I just worried what letting her know about it would lead to, though this has turned out more extreme than I thought it would be. She likes my whole background, not just the sex. She was warned to stay away from me and such. Orbiter types told her this. 

But the other night, for example, she asked why I hadn't had a bachelor party and I said I did, that I never slept the night before our wedding and showed up directly from there at 10 am hung over. She thought I was sitting at home and so this whole thing did something for her, toss it on the pile of stories she seems to be really getting off on. That's great, but what is it doing to our marriage? All that being said, I would prefer this 100 times out of 100 rather than being the contemptible shlub she thought I was when she was seeing that guy.

I've always told her about the women who approach me, not to brag but to shut down any possibility of anything ever happening. She also has always told me when a woman is after me if I didn't know and she's been right most of the time. So she's been aware of it, she says she hates it, but then jumps me later. I'm not trying to be crass I'm trying to describe how it goes between us and even at our worst there was some aspect of this. 

Anyway it just seems overwhelming right now. And people here seem worried about it as am I. I just don't want to screw this up.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Well, if you got into the power couple mode and you were seeing other women, that would make it more likely that she'd end up doing something.
> 
> I don't think that's her motivation though.
> 
> ...


You know the dominant thing is natural to me, it's what I was growing up until we got engaged. I was still seeing others some when we were dating, which she liked though she only told me recently. I didn't do that to cheat or hurt her, it just never occurred to me then that we were exclusive until she said she wanted to be. So we were and then less than a year after that we got engaged and I've been 100% loyal since then. So this isn't hard for me at all, this is natural. I have trouble only with the idea that it isn't supposed to be like this, that marriages like this never work. I don't want to lose her and I don't want to hurt her. But when I was being the proper married man, steady as Ward Cleaver, her only instinct seemed to be to cut my nuts off, so that can't work either. I've got to find some kind of balance, which is why I appreciate the help you guys are giving me. As to her ever stepping out physically, I made clear to her I'd never tolerate it and she says she gets that, so that would definitely kill the marriage if she did want to see other men. She says she wants orbiters again like she used to have.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Try to have her talk more about her insecurity. Draw her out more about what those orbiters do for her. Active listening can help.

Maybe if she talks about it, just really gets it out there, she'll start seeing how unnecessary, and ultimately meaningless, some of what she is seeking really is.


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## NewToHeartBreak (Jul 8, 2014)

"She also has always told me when a woman is after me if I didn't know and she's been right most of the time. So she's been aware of it, she says she hates it, but then jumps me later."

Just because she jumps your bones later doesn't mean she likes it. My wife responds to being threatened the same way (best sex I've ever had was this way). I think it's just patch protection instincts but that's not a reason to justify immoral behavior.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Uncertain Man said:


> *You know the dominant thing is natural to me*, it's what I was growing up until we got engaged. I was still seeing others some when we were dating, which she liked though she only told me recently. I didn't do that to cheat or hurt her, it just never occurred to me then that we were exclusive until she said she wanted to be. So we were and then less than a year after that we got engaged and I've been 100% loyal since then. So this isn't hard for me at all, this is natural. I have trouble only with the idea that it isn't supposed to be like this, that marriages like this never work. I don't want to lose her and I don't want to hurt her. But when I was being the proper married man, steady as Ward Cleaver, her only instinct seemed to be to cut my nuts off, so that can't work either. I've got to find some kind of balance, which is why I appreciate the help you guys are giving me. As to her ever stepping out physically, I made clear to her I'd never tolerate it and she says she gets that, so that would definitely kill the marriage if she did want to see other men. She says she wants orbiters again like she used to have.


Then you're cool


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Then you're cool


I wish it was that easy. I know I can be dominant, but finding the right balance will be tough. I want to give her what she needs without violating our values. But with the advice I've gotten here I think I can make a good go of it.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

sometimes its hard being yourself when you look in the mirror and realize you don't even know what that means anymore....we change for ourselves, we change for others, and in the end we lose ourselves for the sake of peace


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Have you ever looked up cuckquean. Your wife is sexualizing her jealousy, and the fear you will cheat on her with another woman. She is hard wiring her sexuality around it, It may become a fetish of hers. Do a little research on the subject, and see if that is what describes your wife.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr.Fisty said:


> Have you ever looked up cuckquean. *Your wife is sexualizing her jealousy, and the fear you will cheat on her with another woman. * She is hard wiring her sexuality around it, It may become a fetish of hers. Do a little research on the subject, and see if that is what describes your wife.


Excellent insight, MF. Thank you for pointing this out.

She must have a great fear of losing you.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Mr.Fisty said:


> Have you ever looked up cuckquean. Your wife is sexualizing her jealousy, and the fear you will cheat on her with another woman. She is hard wiring her sexuality around it,  It may become a fetish of hers. Do a little research on the subject, and see if that is what describes your wife.


I agree that she is sexualizing her jealousy somehow and is turned on by this whole thing. I guess my fear is that it could cause long term problems. Like she'll say it's okay but really just build up her resentment.

I looked up the cuckquean thing and I don't think that's exactly her though. That mentioned someone being into it and taking part somehow, like wanting to be humiliated. I don't get that sense at all from my wife. 

Instead she seems to want me to be the kind of man who would see other women, but at the same time she doesn't want me to ever mention it or show her evidence of it. She was pretty adamant I don't rub her nose in it, which is how she put it. 

Her fears in order were me picking up an std, me embarrassing her with evidence of what I did or worse, having to meet the woman inadvertently, and finally me leaving her for another. She was very clear on Friday night, when all this was brought out, that she conditions everything she said on me not doing anything that would cause these problems, which seems like wishful thinking.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Uncertain Man said:


> I agree that she is sexualizing her jealousy somehow and is turned on by this whole thing. I guess my fear is that it could cause long term problems. Like she'll say it's okay but really just build up her resentment.
> 
> I looked up the cuckquean thing and I don't think that's exactly her though. That mentioned someone being into it and taking part somehow, like wanting to be humiliated. I don't get that sense at all from my wife.
> 
> ...



I think she just gets off on the jealousy aspect. It comes in varying degree, but could escalate the more it is fed. You definitely want to see an mc for this one. You need to hash out the structure of your relationship. If this is what she wants, and you do not want, then you have an incompatibility of lifestyle. Either one bends, or the marriage is over. Do you fear the marriage being over? You may love her, but she may not be right for you. In her perspective it would go the other way, that you might not be right for her. Could she just be okay with the fantasy. Like you make up exploits, and she can get off on that. Can she keep it in the fantasy realm?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

You are not the guy she is fantasizing about. If you were, this wouldn't be so hard for you.

You should not feel like you need to play a role for her.

She is in her 30s and has been with you for this long and yet she is still creating these elaborate fantasies that are quite different from the life she is living with you.

To me this looks like a ticking time bomb.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Uncertain Man said:


> I agree that she is sexualizing her jealousy somehow and is turned on by this whole thing. I guess my fear is that it could cause long term problems. Like she'll say it's okay but really just build up her resentment.
> 
> I looked up the cuckquean thing and I don't think that's exactly her though. That mentioned someone being into it and taking part somehow, like wanting to be humiliated. I don't get that sense at all from my wife.
> 
> ...


This is the strangest thing I have heard. Is she somehow looking to self protect herself against an infidelity that has not and probably will not occur on your part? I think in short, she would rather not know if and when you commit yourself to infidelity? Or, she is possibly justifying or making ok possible infidelity on her part? In other words, you did it so I did it? :scratchhead:


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Is infidelity something she saw growing up? From her father, grandpa, uncles, anyone? Did her ex's cheat on her? Maybe she has seen it, so she thinks all men do it, and it's just inevitable so she is trying to be okay with it in the only way she knows how.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> You are not the guy she is fantasizing about. If you were, this wouldn't be so hard for you.
> 
> You should not feel like you need to play a role for her.
> 
> ...


I'm fine playing this role because it's my natural behavior. My issues are first, that by asking me to do this she's taking it too far. I worry what it could do to our marriage. She wants this and yet she is also very aware of embarrassment socially. What will happen if things get weird socially for her? In the past I'm the one who pays for that. 

Second, I worry that this is simply wrong in a marriage context. 

So I don't think it's different from the life we live so much as it's what we had before when we met until about the 2nd year of our marriage, and then again for the past few months. It was the middle years of our marriage, where I tried to be a good guy rather than be myself, that she hated and those are the years she also started seeking attention from another guy. Or allowing his attention but denying him anything physical, which I've verified in his texts and some emails in the last few weeks. 

So the only hard part for me is doing what is natural to me though everything I've learned about marriage is that this will end it, yet this is what she wants from me.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Uncertain Man said:


> She's been trying to help her colleague with her husband cheating and I think it's hitting home for my wife at this point. It was crazy to be typing my update on here a couple of days ago and right then the text came thru about him cheating.


LOL... _is he cheating w/ *your* wife_?

Sorry, couldn't help it.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

vms said:


> Is infidelity something she saw growing up? From her father, grandpa, uncles, anyone? Did her ex's cheat on her? Maybe she has seen it, so she thinks all men do it, and it's just inevitable so she is trying to be okay with it in the only way she knows how.


Okay so she apparently feared that her father was seeing other women when he traveled and her mother fed this fear, though there is no evidence of this. This was when she was growing up.

She has no exes except a guy she dated for about 3 years in h.s. They never did anything physical except him going down on her regularly and her making out with him. Verified also. I met her the following year when she went to college. 

So I met her young and she only knows me, the guy she was warned to stay away from. I still saw other women for several years while we dated. She eventually asked me to be serious with her though she remained very jealous. Once we became exclusive I remained faithful despite many chances to step out from women she knew of. But this fed her jealousy quite a bit.

She also has witnessed my father at work with young women. He and my mom were disloyal to each other. He's been with his 2d wife for about 18 years though. My wife saw him pick up a young woman last holidays in Nov. So she started asking me questions then, found that this is pretty much how men in my family operate. 

So my efforts were to avoid both my own past and also what I grew up with. The men in my family have always been half criminal/half business or politics, since we they got here in the 60s and long before in our country of origin. My father has gone away from the criminal aspect of things but remains a womanizer and kind of a douche too. 

So I was trying not to be all these things but when I tried she treated me like garbage and also allowed other men to pursue her, which is how this thread started. Now I've gone back to how I was, very dominant at home but also newly aggressive in my profession, which is evolving. She's responded like I said, by offering me the chance to see other women if I keep my foot on the pedal or go even harder at things. 

She wants a lot from me. I have no doubt this is all influenced by her background and mine. She believes all men want this and that I do even more so, which is fair given my background but also something I've avoided in my marriage. Sorry for the life story.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Please keep your integrity. Please do not be persuaded into infidelity. You will be thankful in the long term. And so will she.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> LOL... _is he cheating w/ *your* wife_?
> 
> Sorry, couldn't help it.


Not funny at all, her coworker is suffering greatly and they have 3 kids.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Uncertain Man said:


> So the only hard part for me is doing what is natural to me though everything I've learned about marriage is that this will end it, yet this is what she wants from me.


OK, you WERE this guy 10+ yrs ago. You are not this guy now. 

Back then, you did this stuff naturally. Now, it is a struggle for you mentally. 

I am sure you could go out and pick up a girl in the next 30 minutes if you wanted to, but the point is you really don't. 10+ years ago, you would not have thought twice about it.

Is it realistic for your mindset to go back to what it was? Why should you have to do that?

So that is one piece of what is wrong here. The other piece is that, not only does your wife want you to go back in time to a version of you that no longer exists, but she wants to upgrade that version to be even more alpha (richer, more powerful, etc).

It's the equivalent of you saying to her, Honey, I just want the 19 year old you, but with bigger t-ts, a better @ss and longer legs.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> OK, you WERE this guy 10+ yrs ago. You are not this guy now.
> 
> Back then, you did this stuff naturally. Now, it is a struggle for you mentally.
> 
> ...


Well I understand what you mean. Thing is, and I've been hesitant to admit it here given this site's general opinions, but it would be rather easy for me to go back to that. And it will be hard but doable for me to give her the life she wants. I have both the talent and the credentials. So stopping being the nice guy would be setting down a huge burden for me. My problem is knowing that it could kill the marriage, hurt her, and not be something I'd ever do again. If this marriage fails then that's it for me. I probably shouldn't have married to begin with and was almost tricked into it anyway. I love her but this hasn't been easy, which is made worse by the fact that I did the nice husband thing for her sake and yet she rewarded me by treating me really badly.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

It sounds to me like nothing is going to get resolved without counseling, at the very least on her end. She is sure that men want more than one woman, that they can't be faithful but more importantly, that they don't WANT to be faithful. She needs to get to the root of why she feels this way, especially if you are saying, "No, I don't want anyone else." 

Also, if you are saying to her, "I COULD have someone else, but I choose just you," that might not be helping. It's basically saying to her, "yeah, I'm hot, women dig me, I could go out and get a woman if I wanted, BUT I want you so disregard that other women want me." The thing is, she likely CAN'T disregard that. If you are saying "I COULD do this" what she is hearing is "I MIGHT do this, cause I could." 

Her thought process is based on fear, not logic. You can't reason your way out of this by pointing out that you could do something but chose not to. Her fears will override it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You definitely need a deep emotional connection to have a satisfying, long-term marriage. Playing a role is not going to do it.

I haven't read all the posts, but I'm guessing marital counseling has been recommended. I would hope that that would help you start connecting on a deep level with each other.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Uncertain Man said:


> Well I understand what you mean. Thing is, and I've been hesitant to admit it here given this site's general opinions, but it would be rather easy for me to go back to that. And it will be hard but doable for me to give her the life she wants. I have both the talent and the credentials. So stopping being the nice guy would be setting down a huge burden for me. My problem is knowing that it could kill the marriage, hurt her, and not be something I'd ever do again. If this marriage fails then that's it for me. I probably shouldn't have married to begin with and was almost tricked into it anyway. I love her but this hasn't been easy, which is made worse by the fact that I did the nice husband thing for her sake and yet she rewarded me by treating me really badly.


Not trying to be a jerk, but based on how you've described your wife, I think you'll be f-d no matter what you do.

As I see it, you have 3 basic options:

1. Give her what she wants. Be an all around big swinging d----. The problem is if there is any vestige of the nice guy left in you, you will feel terrible. Plus, if she is as devoted to alpha worship as you've described her, she will eventually see the nice guy within you and find her true, remorseless alpha elsewhere. 

2. Dump her. She's already revealed an inability to accept the life you want to lead. She's demonstrated that she is not loyal to you as a man, only to an idea of you in her head. 

3. Keep doing what YOU think is right. She is broadcasting that she will cheat on you if you do this though.

Again, just reacting to what you've described. I can't personally imagine compromising my values for someone like you've described your wife.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> Not trying to be a jerk, but based on how you've described your wife, I think you'll be f-d no matter what you do.
> 
> As I see it, you have 3 basic options:
> 
> ...


I agree. She thinks so little of your character that cheating is a foregone conclusion, and it seems if you don't become a rich, powerful douche she'll find one to cheat with and eventually leave you. 

I think in your place I'd be looking to end this relationship and move on.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> Not trying to be a jerk, but based on how you've described your wife, I think you'll be f-d no matter what you do.
> 
> As I see it, you have 3 basic options:
> 
> ...


Well I hope things aren't quite this 'doomed' but I have to admit that your analysis seems pretty accurate right now. I think my one hope is her own fear in all this. Not the fear of me stepping out only, but also of what all this means for us. Last night she said several things that made me think she knows how serious it all is. 

For example, her friend's cheating husband had stepped out when he was traveling and she suspects he was at this all the time. Not traveling how he said but instead going to see a particular woman. Her friend has already decided to divorce, while her husband countered that he would like to be able to see this woman out of state while remaining married, a hard sell. 

My wife said to me that she found it outrageous that a man would expect to see other women while remaining married. Wtf? That's exactly what she offered me and didn't back away from until last night, if this was backing away. 

I'm actually somewhat relieved that she at least sees the gravity of this rather than simply acting on some fantasy level only. But I think she is simply insecure about it based on our follow up conversation, rather than truly backing away from it. She wants some reassurance apparently that I won't love anyone else but her, which is easy enough for me to say to her.

I want to tell myself that I couldn't ever cheat, but in reality I saw other women for our first 3 years of dating so to me (now) that's pretty close. She put up with it but that doesn't mean she liked it. But maybe my past, and all of that other history in her family and mine, have made her think this is all inevitable. 

Despite what you wrote in #2, I think she is actually loyal to me. She had too many chances to jump ship over the years and didn't take them. She instead seemed to want me to react to them. If she only saw me as a provider, good guy type, she wouldn't bother trying to change me so desperately. And she wouldn't see me as the type who could plausibly do what she's asking me to do here. In terms of money, her inherited money is more than I've made so far, though that will change. So I think she truly wants me, though it's true she wants the old me combined with the current me. It makes a difference to me though it seems scant.

I'm not sure she wants me to be a remorseless alpha, or she wants that but only toward others. I think she still regularly seeks out the good guy part of me and that also helps a lot when it comes to trying to get through to her. I know she wants me to be that way, but not entirely. 

But I agree she may want some impossible combination of things from me. It would be tough to walk this tight rope going forward if she also expects me to perform at a high level. 

So yeah it's pretty tough right now but I still have some confidence I can figure it out.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

OK, your latest post has caused me to re-think what I wrote above.

The fact that she is seeing this other cheating husband put in to practice her fantasy and not liking it is positive.

I am now going back to the mindset of she really does not know what she wants, other than she does want you to take more control.

So I think you really need to just figure out what it is you want to do (if you don't already know) and then lead her in that direction.

If she brings up all of this soap opera crap, just treat it as something humorous and keep doing your thing.

The most important thing is to be dominant with her because she has shown she will stray and develop these wild fantasies when you're not.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> OK, your latest post has caused me to re-think what I wrote above.
> 
> The fact that she is seeing this other cheating husband put in to practice her fantasy and not liking it is positive.
> 
> ...


I agree and I think I'm going to try moving forward under the assumptions you list here. I don't mean to pretend things are great with her, but I at least want to try this out before ending things entirely. I think there's hope for us even now. I agree with pretty much everything you've got in this post and I think it's a usable position to take, asserting the dominance she wants and seeing how things go. That way I can have a few months to see how she responds and then make a decision from there.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Uncertain Man said:


> Well I understand what you mean. Thing is, and I've been hesitant to admit it here given this site's general opinions, but it would be rather easy for me to go back to that. And it will be hard but doable for me to give her the life she wants. I have both the talent and the credentials. So stopping being the nice guy would be setting down a huge burden for me. My problem is knowing that it could kill the marriage, hurt her, and not be something I'd ever do again. If this marriage fails then that's it for me. I probably shouldn't have married to begin with and was almost tricked into it anyway. I love her but this hasn't been easy, which is made worse by the fact that I did the nice husband thing for her sake and yet she rewarded me by treating me really badly.


She seems to be a woman who ascribe to the life of a "Mafia wife". You don't want this and wants to live a decent life. Why would you chose the path of darkness? Move on if you must. You must be honest with your wife and tell her that you have chosen to take the path of a decent husband and that is where you will be. You have grown up and she has not. If you follow her journey, who will lose your dignity and integrity. Where will you be? You can't sit on this fence undecided. The longer you wait, the greater your heartbreak.

You stated above: "I shouldn't have married to begin with and was almost tricked into it anyway". Can you explain further.


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## Uncertain Man (Dec 3, 2014)

Roselyn said:


> She seems to be a woman who ascribe to the life of a "Mafia wife". You don't want this and wants to live a decent life. Why would you chose the path of darkness? Move on if you must. You must be honest with your wife and tell her that you have chosen to take the path of a decent husband and that is where you will be. You have grown up and she has not. If you follow her journey, who will lose your dignity and integrity. Where will you be? You can't sit on this fence undecided. The longer you wait, the greater your heartbreak.
> 
> You stated above: "I shouldn't have married to begin with and was almost tricked into it anyway". Can you explain further.


Yeah my wife met my aunt, an actual mafia wife, a few years back and was admittedly into her. That particular branch of the family is still heavily involved in that. That being said those here who have made fun of her House of Cards aspirations are actually closer to how our branch of the family works, both on her side and mine. 

So yes she wants something like what you describe in general, a different style but really little difference in practice. But let me make clear neither of us wants actual criminal or harmful behavior to be part of our lives, at least not harmful to others. 

She told me last night that no matter what path we take, she wants us to hold onto "our true selves," meaning I think she knows that what she wants me to go along with could be ugly if we lose our moral values, or I hope she knows that at least.

So to answer your question, my father has always been a "good family man" meaning he always keeps the appearance of that while doing what he wants. His current wife has been cheated on as much as my mom was, just to show what that's worth. 

Anyway, he wanted me to marry my wife, and she'd spoken of marriage as some women do, almost from the time we met. So he set up a situation in which I was basically pushed to become engaged to her. Of course no one can really force that, but I was young and dumb and also had admittedly been living with her for years. But if I had my own way I would have kept being with her while not married to her, which she says herself she knows is what I would have chosen. But even so we were too young to get married, it was just her desire plus my dad's desire that I be like him and keep up appearances. I realize none of this looks good on me.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Don't be like your Dad if you don't want to. He selected your wife for himself and his daughter-in-law for a "would be broken man" like him. Your father built his world and roped you in it with your present wife. You elected to take the high road where you want to be. You must extricate yourself from the dark world which belongs to your father.

You said that you would have elected to remain single and continue to live with your girlfriend, now your wife. I suggest that you take a single life. If your wife is the woman for you, I don't see her resisting to the idea of just living together as she is a high risk taker. 

Anyway, continue to walk in the light of your choice. When everything is taken from you, you will still have your dignity and integrity.


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