# NOW she says she wants us to be close



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Warning: This is going to sound like a whinefest but I do want some outside feedback and perspective in case I am off-base here or missing something.

First a little background. About a half dozen + years ago had a real rocky point in our marriage. She was openly hostile and contemptuous of me, I was getting more and more fed up with the tone and contempt. Had the big blow out one weekend and I got the ILYBNILWY. We ended up in MC. She was very defensive and angry. Said I wasn't helping out enough with the house. Not doing enough with the kids. All I wanted was sex. I was too needy. She was too busy and had too much on her plate to deal with me etc etc. 

I said I didn't want to live as roommates and was tired of being snapped at and talked down to and the constant hostility and contempt. 

MC told her I had one foot out the door and that if she didn't accept that my needs were valid, she would soon be a single mother swapping kids back and forth. 

MC told me I needed to crap or get off the pot and either commit to staying in marriage and being more present or pack bags. 

She was PI$$ED but ultimately capitulated in the bottom of the 9th and came to the negotiation table for fear of losing fulltime access to kids. We had it out and both agreed to stay and try. We were cordial and polite going forward. She basically declared us cured and that things were now good. 

(Side Note; shortly after, she became obssessed with getting a new house saying there were too many bad memories to the house and that we needed a new house as a new beginning. She said she wanted this so bad and she would finally be content. This was the 8th move in 18 years at this point. I told her parents and family that in a handful of years when she wants to move again, I will not be accompanying her and if the kids did not want to move, I would go to court for them to stay.) 

We move, things are ok for awhile. Soon along comes menopause, chronic migraines, anxiety, digestive issues, a whole host of medications for everything and for the last several years, life has been with a zombie. She's speak to me when spoken to. Otherwise the only dialogue is to hear all her complaints about work, her family, the kids, the house, the neighbors, the yard, the cracks in the driveway - you get the point. 

We technically do not meet criteria for a true sexless marriage but it's purely mercy sex with the undead like any other distasteful task that needs to be done. Usually with her looking at the clock and if she says a word or makes a sound, it is to tell me to hurry up. There have been many times, I simply stopped and said never mind. 

Maybe a couple years ago, I basically stopped trying. I started spending more nights in the guest room. About right at a year ago I packed up my clothes and stuff and moved into the guest room. Not a word was said. 

If I go to hug her, she will stiffen up, cant her body away from me and take a baby step back but then put her arms somewhat around me like a hug. If I try to kiss her she either turns a cheek or gives me a quick, furtive grandma smack. 

If she is laughing and joking with my daughter and her friends, the room goes silent when I walk into the room and then starts up again when I leave. 

When I have tried to address issues, she becomes very hostile and aggressive and counter attacks and says, "oh so here we go again huh!" 

I brought up going back to MC but was told since I was the one with the problem, I should see a shrink on my own but that 'we' were fine. 

OK so you get the picture. 

Anyway, last few months I have actually been good. I have accepted she no longer desires me, is attracted to me and not sure if she even likes me. But we get along, don't fight anymore. I try to leave her alone and she leaves me alone to do my own thing. We coparent well (they are 19 and 16 and for the most part make good roommates and have been cooperative and respectful of each other. 

I have been getting out and doing some of my hobbies and have been getting fresh air and exercise doing things with the kids. 

I will even through in that I do not have anything against porn and think in some circumstances it can be positive... but since the new year I have decided I don't want to watch other people have sex lives and I have gone no-fap. I want to have a sex life with another human being and I'm not going to waste that time and energy with myself. And I requested some vacation time and am planning a solo vacation next month to go see some old and dear friends halfway across the country. 

SOOOOOOOO two nights ago, I am heading to bed and out of the blue she gets infront of me and blurts out that we need to get closer and we need to reconnect. I'm standing there looking at her and all I can say is, OK." then I go around her and go to bed. 

The next day, I am driving to work and she calls me and starts crying in the phone saying she "needs" to reconnect and get close to me again and that she does not want to be alone. She admits we have issues and admits she has maintained a policy of "Kids First" .... her term. 

She says she doesn't want to end up alone and that we need to reconnect and get close again. 

About all I can manage to say again is, "OK." but don't know what else to say. 

So all is well and I am over the moon happy now that we are getting back together and going to live happily ever after right??? NO. In fact, my reaction to all of this is what is really surprising me. Instead of being happy and grateful and joyous looking towards the future of trying to reconcile......

I find myself growing more angry and more resentful by the hour. I've spent literally YEARS trying to connect. Trying to address the issues only to be met with hostility and contempt and defensiveness. I've tried MC to be told that I am the problem and so I need to get help on my own. I've tried to show affection to be pushed away. 

And now that I am starting to dig life on my own, she is afraid of being alone!!!!!!

And guess what she has done since this revelation to try to become closer and reconnect?? Answer - Absolutely nothing. Hasn't really even spoke to me.

But that's not all. Today I get a txt saying she has made an appointment with a realitor to come do an assessment on the house to see what we would need to do to get it ready for the market and she also made an appointment for painters to come and give an estimate for painting the interior to prepare it for the market - THE HOUSE IS ONLY 7 YEARS OLD AND WE ARE THE ORIGINAL OWNERS! 

WTF!!!!!!!!

Were these tears and declarations of reconnection to simply butter me up thinking I'll get her a new house again (she will be sadly disappointed) 

Or has she changed her mind in 48 hours and I'm going to be getting divorce papers in the next few days with stipulation of sale of the house and division of equity? 

What the hell I am in for here?????? :-O


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Your wife sounds like what I’d call a chronic discontent. She will never be happy. With a new house, a new husband, a new car, a new job, a new whatever. She is never going to be happy with you or anyone else for any length of time. Alone is how she will wind up most likely.
You’ll be her scapegoat.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

I gotta agree with Evinrude. She sounds like a miserable .... I got depressed just reading that, and you've been living it!


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I’m not sure what I would call what you have but it’s certainly not a marriage. 
One thing struck me about your post. You say if you walk into the room when your wife and daughters are talking and laughing everything stops until you leave the room and then starts up again. Are your daughters treating you like your wife is? Is she poisoning them against you?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Sounds like it’s all about a new house.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Look at it this way. Your children are only a few years away from leaving the nest. You have told yourself that you want to have meaningful sex with a woman and intent to do so. Don't cheat on your wife. Respect her and your family enough to divorce her first. Selling the house would be a real good step in the divorce process.

She was told once that you had one foot out the door and she was asked if that was what she wanted. You said, she told the MC that was not what she wanted. Your moving out of the bedroom, your taking up hobbies, your planning a solo trip are all clear statements you are contemplating a life without her or at least with her having a much lesser role.

Let's be honest, people who have been married for a long time can complete each other's sentences. They can understand what their spouse is thinking and feeling by facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, etc. You have probably been communicating to her that you have reached the end of your rope. You many not have said that, but you have communicated it to her, just as she has communicated her feelings toward you.

You and your wife's situation sounded similar to mine in some ways. If you haven't, I would suggest that you read Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy, because you sound like a Nice Guy and that is not a complement. Although you have done the heavy lifting of Getting a Life to cure you of some of your Nice Guy traits.

Another book I would recommend is M.W. Davis the Sex Starved Marriage, if you haven't read it yet. That book may also give you a few ideas on how you can improve your life. 

She is the one that approached you. Her telling you she wants to be close to you and yet refusing marriage counseling is at best a confused approach. Tell he that if she wants to get close to you, the two of you can go to marriage counseling with a Sex Therapist as that seems to be the biggest problem in your marriage at the moment and that it is a two person problem not a one person problem.

Good Luck.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

All you have to do to find out what's up is to tell her that you are NOT moving. If she wants to move, she can sign the divorce papers on the dotted line. You can be miserable in the house you're in as well as a different one.

Doesn't your wife realize that every move pisses away part of your equity through realtor fees?


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Is this the first time she has mentioned selling the house?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Didn't you once state that both you and your wife agreed that some of the happiest times in your marriage was when you two were swinging? Think about that. 

That tells me that you both were happiest when you were diddling other people. Maybe, you two are really not cut out for one another.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Evinrude58 said:


> Your wife sounds like what I’d call a chronic discontent. She will never be happy. With a new house, a new husband, a new car, a new job, a new whatever. She is never going to be happy with you or anyone else for any length of time. Alone is how she will wind up most likely.
> You’ll be her scapegoat.


@oldshirt 
The above, my old friend.

Imho this M doesn't have the capacity to be the loving M you've put the work in for.

Sadly your W sees you and has proven she sees you only, and I mean only as a means to a roof, food, kids.

You can look back and know you went the extra mile, in fact miles beyond in trying to be her H.

You can proudly take all you've learned and make her move out.

You'll have a much happier future, kids will too. Don't doubt it.

Time for action to regain your best self.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> I’m not sure what I would call what you have but it’s certainly not a marriage.
> One thing struck me about your post. You say if you walk into the room when your wife and daughters are talking and laughing everything stops until you leave the room and then starts up again. Are your daughters treating you like your wife is? Is she poisoning them against you?


No I wouldn’t say that at all. We have a good coparenting relationship and the kids and I have good relationships.

In the last few years I would not say she has been contemptuous or hostile towards me at all like before - just more like I am some guy she knows that she has no desire or attraction for. 

Best analogy would be DSO’s 300 lb bearded woman concept. She reacts to me the way I would react to a 300 lb bearded woman.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> No I wouldn’t say that at all. We have a good coparenting relationship and the kids and I have good relationships.
> 
> In the last few years I would not say she has been contemptuous or hostile towards me at all like before - just more like I am some guy she knows that she has no desire or attraction for.
> 
> Best analogy would be DSO’s 300 lb bearded woman concept. She reacts to me the way I would react to a 300 lb bearded woman.


But what you don't have is a healthy or even reasonably happy M.

You can and will be a better coparent when you leave her, making her move out.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> No I wouldn’t say that at all. We have a good coparenting relationship and the kids and I have good relationships.
> 
> In the last few years I would not say she has been contemptuous or hostile towards me at all like before -* just more like I am some guy she knows that she has no desire or attraction for*.
> 
> Best analogy would be DSO’s 300 lb bearded woman concept. She reacts to me the way I would react to a 300 lb bearded woman.


See my bolded above.

What man in their right mind, generally speaking, not solely focusing on you my friend, would want to live with and support in any way a woman who doesn't desire and appreciate him?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Openminded said:


> Sounds like it’s all about a new house.


If she’s buttering me up for another house, it ain’t gonna happen. 

The last time we moved I sat her parents and brother down and told them I wasn’t doing this again and if the kids didn’t want to move, I would take whatever legal action was necessary so they wouldn’t have to.

The kids are 19 and 16 now and I’ve told her they are old enough to make their own decisions and if they want to go with her they can but if they don’t want to pack their stuff and move, they are welcome to remain with me.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> See my bolded above.
> 
> What man in their right mind, generally speaking, not solely focusing on you my friend, would want to live with and support in any way a woman who doesn't desire and appreciate him?


How many times have you seen me say the exact same things to other guys LOL. 

I’m stuck in some kind of Paralysis By Analysis loop. 

It’s kind of like I know I am not in my right mind, but am I not in my right mind for wanting out ? or am I not in my right mind for hoping things can get better?


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Sorry @oldshirt, sounds like you are having a pretty miserable time. Tell her you want to have alone time with her to discuss some issues in your marriage and to make a plan for the future.
Prepare before hand with a list of all the things you have mentioned here.
Confront her with the points you have raised here (record the meeting, for your own analysis later).
Giver her a time frame to resolve the issues
Listen to her issues with you
Tell her you will not be living in limbo land forever and divorce is not an option you are afraid of.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I have lived your life.

Straight lace.

Minus any swinging.
Not even off of the chandeliers, when those very rare (one-sided) tipsy nights happened.

When you hate yourself, it bleeds over to everyone near.
She hates her life.

She has so much anxiety, she likely shivers, uncontrollably.
Like a Chihauha in Alaska.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

You paid enough home sell/buy fees to pay for two divorces already. You need a divorce in the worst kind of way. I think she is just buttering you up in preparation for another house. She is manipulating your emotions. It’s difficult for me to understand while people stay in these situations.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> How many times have you seen me say the exact same things to other guys LOL.
> 
> I’m stuck in some kind of Paralysis By Analysis loop.
> 
> It’s kind of like I know I am not in my right mind, but am I not in my right mind for wanting out ? or am I not in my right mind for hoping things can get better?


You already have years of history to prove it will not get better. Don’t you want to get some of your life back? I don’t mean life back with her.... I mean a new life on your own. At this point your already on your own...just under the same roof.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Your kids are older....do what you want for yourself...She's doing it to you, I see no reason why you can't do the same...If you don't want to divorce now, then don't -but start to move your life in a new direction without her...

I don't know how old you are but there comes a point where not one day should be wasted on this type of garbage...I am over 50 and hear almost on a daily basis guys I know or knew that have passed on...Never women...always guys....Forget about "rules" and what other people think and start living what is left of your life...No one is guaranteed anything..

I agree with what one of the other posters mentioned...The part about all of them getting quiet when you entered the room...That is horrible and speaks volumes about where you fit in there....

Don't waste any more time, man....


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Flashbacks. So many flashbacks.



oldshirt said:


> First a little background. About a half dozen + years ago had a real rocky point in our marriage. She was openly hostile and contemptuous of me, I was getting more and more fed up with the tone and contempt.


She's a walkaway wife without the courage.



oldshirt said:


> Said I wasn't helping out enough with the house. Not doing enough with the kids. All I wanted was sex.


This is at least 6 years too late but did you make an effort to be more helpful and more involved? She only went through the motions for addressing your concerns, did you go farther than that for her?



oldshirt said:


> She said she wanted this so bad and she would finally be content.


Lies and goalpost moving. Once this next thing is done, once I have the next pound of flesh, once she has this next purchase, she'll be happy. No, no she won't. At least not for very long.



oldshirt said:


> We technically do not meet criteria for a true sexless marriage but it's purely mercy sex with the undead like any other distasteful task that needs to be done.


I used to get Ovulation Day sex as well. Its not really worth it. It almost takes effort to make sex stop being fun but she managed it.



oldshirt said:


> I will even through in that I do not have anything against porn and think in some circumstances it can be positive... but since the new year I have decided I don't want to watch other people have sex lives and I have gone no-fap.


This is more ironic than anything but I've more or less started this with Lent. It didn't seem to really make me feel less alone or less lacking in my solitude so I stopped.



oldshirt said:


> The next day, I am driving to work and she calls me and starts crying in the phone saying she "needs" to reconnect and get close to me again and that she does not want to be alone.


She doesn't really want to reconnect. She really doesn't want to be alone.



oldshirt said:


> So all is well and I am over the moon happy now that we are getting back together and going to live happily ever after right??? NO. In fact, my reaction to all of this is what is really surprising me. Instead of being happy and grateful and joyous looking towards the future of trying to reconcile......
> 
> I find myself growing more angry and more resentful by the hour. I've spent literally YEARS trying to connect. Trying to address the issues only to be met with hostility and contempt and defensiveness. I've tried MC to be told that I am the problem and so I need to get help on my own. I've tried to show affection to be pushed away.
> 
> And now that I am starting to dig life on my own, she is afraid of being alone!!!!!!


You should definitely not be happy with the change of heart now. She wasn't sincere about working on the marriage before and only did _just enough_ to keep you from leaving. She withdrew everything from the relationship that you valued and is somehow surprised that you don't need her.

A month short of the one year anniversary of my divorce being final I got a message from my ex. She still seems to be trying to wrap her head around just that. Here's an excerpt:



> 1. Why did you agree to divorce me? This is the main question I've thought about for years now. Am I that bad of a person? Did I make you that miserable? I apologize If I did. I know you are okay being alone. You are very independent. I knew you would be fine without me. I knew deep down you didn't need me.
> 
> 2. Are you proud of me? I've tried these past few years to prove I'm worthy. I can manage my finances, hold a full time job, and have tried to pick up cooking.


She might not ask these questions of you but in the coming years she'll probably ask them of herself.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

aine said:


> Sorry @oldshirt, sounds like you are having a pretty miserable time. Tell her you want to have alone time with her to discuss some issues in your marriage and to make a plan for the future.
> Prepare before hand with a list of all the things you have mentioned here.
> Confront her with the points you have raised here (record the meeting, for your own analysis later).
> Giver her a time frame to resolve the issues
> ...


BTDT years ago and that t-shirt is worn and faded. 

I’m done talking and I don’t know how to word this accurately but I’m also done listening. 

It’s all about actions now. What is she going to actually DO about it? 

I’ll see what she does, but in the meantime I have a vacation to plan, I hoping to pick up a new motorcycle tomorrow that I will need to break in and I have a few extra lbs around the middle I’m hell bent on losing. 

I ain’t got time to sit around talking about shyte I talked till I was blue in the face several years ago.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> he next day, I am driving to work and she calls me and starts crying in the phone saying she "needs" to reconnect and get close to me again and that she does not want to be alone.


Does she not realize she ALREADY IS ALONE? It really sounds like this is it for you -- you have no real motivation or desire to reconnect or be with her. ESPECIALLY since SHE is showing no signs of actually meaning this. She probably felt that you disconnected TOO much and she wasn't sure she could manipulate you anymore. She wants to get back to that status quo.

You should be very clear to her that you ARE NOT selling this house or moving. PERIOD, no discussion. YOU are happy where you are. If she is not, she is free to go elsewhere.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> Didn't you once state that both you and your wife agreed that some of the happiest times in your marriage was when you two were swinging? Think about that.
> 
> That tells me that you both were happiest when you were diddling other people. Maybe, you two are really not cut out for one another.


Those were fun times no doubt, but the actual best time for me was the first half dozen years or so of our marriage before the kids came.

I know that sounds bad and I do love my kids dearly, but the moment she became pregnant she changed and her attitude towards me changed completely.

I knew on our first date she would be a WonderMom that would shift priorities to the kids and be SuperMom. I understood that and was willing to accept it.

But I way underestimated just how much she would lower her priority and even her view of me. 

I was willing to accept being behind two kids on the priority scale. 

But what I wasn’t prepared for was being # 328 on the priority scale right behind making sure there was no grass coming up in the cracks of the driveway. 

Her priority didn’t end with making sure the kids were safe, healthy and happy. It extended to making sure the entire world was perfect for them to exist in and World-Perfection became her end goal. 

This was a major point when we were in MC. We’ve actually been through MC twice with two different counselors and both MCs told her to knock that off or she was going to be a single mother and then she’d really have problems making everything perfect.

Our first MC gave her a homework assignment in all seriousness to get up one day and go about her regular daily routine but not make the bed. 

She openly refused and said she could not and would not do that and was angered by the suggestion. 

I should’ve walked out of the MC office right then and there but the kids were little at the time.

I also underestimated how much being a second (or third or 127th) class citizen in my own home would effect me. 

Whether we realized it at the time or not, most of us guys have been raised to be beta providers and raised to be providers and assistant caregivers and domestic servants.

I thought I would be up to the task but I wasn’t, it wasn’t in my nature to have my needs be discarded and basically become a domestic appliance. 

The swinging did bring back some balance and reminded both her and myself that I was still a virile and vigorous man. 

But the actual best time for me was before the kids came and before she transformed into WonderMom. 

And as ironic as this may sound, if you were to ask her what the best of times were - she would probably say NOW. Or at least the last few years since I have given up and stopped asking anything of her. 

And why wouldn’t it be? She has it all now, the house in the burbs. The career (that I put her through school for) the kids, the cars, the bikes 🏍 And now she even has a house full of cats.

Yes, she is also turning into a crazy cat lady and even has the bumper sticker.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jlg07 said:


> Does she not realize she ALREADY IS ALONE? It really sounds like this is it for you -- you have no real motivation or desire to reconnect or be with her. ESPECIALLY since SHE is showing no signs of actually meaning this. She probably felt that you disconnected TOO much and she wasn't sure she could manipulate you anymore. She wants to get back to that status quo.
> 
> You should be very clear to her that you ARE NOT selling this house or moving. PERIOD, no discussion. YOU are happy where you are. If she is not, she is free to go elsewhere.


Actually I have already said that. She started sniffing out houses/properties last summer and I very matter of factly and dispassionately informed her I wouldn’t be going with her and if the kids didn’t want to go, I would take legal action to allow them to stay in their current home.

This ain’t my first rodeo.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

She is staring down the barrel of an empty nest. Her role of Super mom is drawing to a close. She is having trouble imagining her world in the post children marriage. So she reverts to the old standby, buy another house. Call her realtor and explain that you will not be selling your interest in the house.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

I guess on the bright side of moving around so much you probably don't have a lot of home equity to split up.

Pay off debts, save up some cash so that when divorce comes the values can be more easily divided, and make sure you both know where all the accounts are so that there won't be any arguments later about it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jlg07 said:


> Does she not realize she ALREADY IS ALONE? It really sounds like this is it for you -- you have no real motivation or desire to reconnect or be with her. ESPECIALLY since SHE is showing no signs of actually meaning this. She probably felt that you disconnected TOO much and she wasn't sure she could manipulate you anymore. She wants to get back to that status quo.
> 
> You should be very clear to her that you ARE NOT selling this house or moving. PERIOD, no discussion. YOU are happy where you are. If she is not, she is free to go elsewhere.


Actually I have already said that. She started sniffing out houses/properties last summer and I very matter of factly and dispassionately informed her I wouldn’t be going with her and if the kids didn’t want to go, I would take legal action to allow them to stlay in their current home.

This ain’t my first rodeo.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I do need to clarify something.

We did not purchase/own 8 different houses.

We are on house # 3 that we purchased.

The rest were rentals and we even lived with her folks for a couple months between moves.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I do need to clarify something.
> 
> We did not purchase/own 8 different houses.
> 
> ...


What is her reasoning for wanting a new house?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Warning: This is going to sound like a whinefest but I do want some outside feedback and perspective in case I am off-base here or missing something.
> 
> First a little background. About a half dozen + years ago had a real rocky point in our marriage. She was openly hostile and contemptuous of me, I was getting more and more fed up with the tone and contempt. Had the big blow out one weekend and I got the ILYBNILWY. We ended up in MC. She was very defensive and angry. Said I wasn't helping out enough with the house. Not doing enough with the kids. All I wanted was sex. I was too needy. She was too busy and had too much on her plate to deal with me etc etc.
> 
> ...


It sounds like your wife is the type to try and fix things with large scale but superficial changes so she doesn't have to put in any real effort, make any sacrifices or changes within herself to address problems. It's like to her buying a new house equals leaving the bad behind, but then she'll just stick to the same behavior that lead to the problems in the first place. It sounds like she has never accepted any accountability and that is unlikely to change as it is probably a hard wired baked in personality trait. She just wants you be act like everything is great and be happy without her doing anything to change on her end. Just time to reset the same cycle.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I've gotta ask. How many cats do you have?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> We technically do not meet criteria for a true sexless marriage but it's purely mercy sex with the undead like any other distasteful task that needs to be done. Usually with her looking at the clock and if she says a word or makes a sound, it is to tell me to hurry up. There have been many times, I simply stopped and said never mind.
> 
> Maybe a couple years ago, I basically stopped trying. I started spending more nights in the guest room. About right at a year ago I packed up my clothes and stuff and moved into the guest room. Not a word was said.
> 
> ...


Your wife doesn't seem to like you very much, if at all anymore.



> SOOOOOOOO two nights ago, I am heading to bed and out of the blue she gets infront of me and blurts out that we need to get closer and we need to reconnect. I'm standing there looking at her and all I can say is, OK." then I go around her and go to bed.
> 
> The next day, I am driving to work and she calls me and starts crying in the phone saying she "needs" to reconnect and get close to me again and that she does not want to be alone. She admits we have issues and admits she has maintained a policy of "Kids First" .... her term.
> 
> She says she doesn't want to end up alone and that we need to reconnect and get close again.


Given all of that I doubt she suddenly cares for you now, except she doesn't wan't to be alone, which isn't really about your relationship with her.

As is true for everyone else, if you keep settling for less you will certainly keep getting less.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> I've gotta ask. How many cats do you have?


3 that are ours at the moment.

She has started fostering orphaned kittens from the animal shelter so we often have litters of kittens that come and go. 

There absolutely is some empty nest syndrome taking place and she admits that. 

She does a good job taking care of them and cleaning up after them and I am an animal lover myself so as long as everything is healthy and hygienic I am ok with it.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

To be honest it sounds like she had an affair that caused her to detach from you and she’s not able to reconnect with you. The wanting to move from the last house smelled of wanting to leave the scene of the crime. She hoped it would help her forget someone that she may have desecrated the house with? 

as for her now reaching out to you since you’ve been doing your own thing? That’s dread. You’re showing through your actions that you can move on. She can sense that your not bluffing. You’re now on your way to full detachment and she is noticing that the new you is desirable.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

What does she says when you tell her that you are not moving?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Sorry man.. your a long time poster here and I respect your opinions, but at this point, after this many years, your a willing victim to the situation and the problem isn’t her.... it’s you. Blame her all you want but your the person responsible for your life not her. 

Give yourself some of that advice you give others and act on it. From the outside looking in the answer to your problem is very simple.... and obvious. Dude.... get a divorce already. Sunk cost fallacy is sinking the ship called “The Rest of Your Life”.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> How many times have you seen me say the exact same things to other guys LOL.
> 
> I’m stuck in some kind of Paralysis By Analysis loop.
> 
> It’s kind of like I know I am not in my right mind, but am I not in my right mind for wanting out ? or *am I not in my right mind for hoping things can get better?*


If you’re not in your right mind then it’s for hoping things can get better after years of evidence that they won’t. That’s definitely not the advice you give others. Relying on emotion to guide you can keep you in a dysfunctional marriage far too long. I’m an expert on wasting time by putting off that decision one more day until suddenly decades have gone by and nothing’s changed. I don’t recommend that life.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

it sounds like her constant desire to move, makes me thing that she is continually in a nesting mentality, but as the kids older and the older you two get she is losing that battle in her mind that perhaps in her mind she is trying to find that perfect nest that will make you happy, her happy and the kids happy but sadly it's futile and she can't accept it. She tried for the longest time to use sex as a hold on you and now that she has even lost that hold and you have a more independent life as does the kids she any hold now and she does not know what else to do. 

This kid first mentality that many spouse take (including my spouse) destroy many relationships because in the end tey lose their spouse and the their kids because they move on to their own life. Oldshirt you need to come to jesus meeting with her and tell her that you are not signing the selling of the house and i would straight out tell her that she f'd up and she got exactly what she wanted with her kid first approach and that she killed any passion that was left in your relationship.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

For some people, when the new house becomes the old house they start looking again for that excitement fix (my ex-husband was like that). Maybe she’s reached that point with the current house. But that’s her problem and not yours.

What was the circumstance that caused you to tell her family that you weren’t moving again?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I think she is buttering you up for a new house. Not very good at buttering. I think you need to set your foot down about the house. Once the kids are gone, which is soon, maybe you downsize, but sounds like she just has houseitis and hopes to end up with it if there is divorce. Maybe you ought to talk to an attorney and see what your right are about not selling the house. If you're both on the deed, do you need both signatures? You might have to file papers to get her to stop whatever move she's pulling.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think she is buttering you up for a new house. Not very good at buttering. I think you need to set your foot down about the house. Once the kids are gone, which is soon, maybe you downsize, but sounds like she just has houseitis and hopes to end up with it if there is divorce. Maybe you ought to talk to an attorney and see what your right are about not selling the house. If you're both on the deed, do you need both signatures? You might have to file papers to get her to stop whatever move she's pulling.


She can't sell without his permission. If he's on the documents which I'm pretty sure he is🙂

ETA if it's jointly owned a listing agent isn't even going to list it without the signature of both parties.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

Be careful. I wouldn't give any ultimatums until AFTER you come back from vacation. Or you could come back to a house with the locks changed and a restraining order waiting for you. In some states all one has to do is go ask for one - no proof needed. And you'll be forced/locked out of your house --- and it will not be "easy" to get it back / in. I strongly suggest you talk to an experienced lawyer ASAP.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Better yet .... sell the house but then refuse to buy another. One less divorce problem to solve. That’s what my aunt did.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I need to be very careful what I say about you and your situation, Oldshirt... I'll sleep over it... see you tomorrow... 

actually, I'll say something now...  it seems to me that your wife is having an empty-nest syndrome attack. Like my wife did. She had a nervous breakdown when she realised she was going to be on her own, completely. Your wife knows you are rebuilding your life and that you'll probably leave her very soon and she is frightened.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I am single and date some. There are two things that turn my stomach and result in a “next”.... 

1). My children come first, and you need to know and accept that! 

yeah, we all know children’s needs must be met and that is a priority. What you’re really saying is that you are making it clear that Were we to be a couple, I come no higher than second on your list, and likely not even that high. My kids needs are my priority as their dad. My SO is also going to be ranking at number one priority. I’m taking care of all their needs as beat I can. And I’m not gonna be less than number one priority for you..... 

2). I’m an independent woman. 

ok, what does that mean? From what I’ve seen, it also means they’re gonna make sure you know they’ll do whatever and whenever they want, and don’t expect to compromise on things, especially money. Well guess what? I’m an independent man. I don’t need a woman,.... thing is, almost invariably, these independent women suddenly need all kinds of help financially and don’t expect to contribute in any way. 
Sorry, I don’t need these “independent” women, either. I want one that wants to be a team mate. Screw independent. 
those are 4F women as a guy I know put it.

thought I’d mention my thoughts, since if you’re smart you’ll be divorcing soon.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> Didn't you once state that both you and your wife agreed that some of the happiest times in your marriage was when you two were swinging? Think about that.
> 
> That tells me that you both were happiest when you were diddling other people. Maybe, you two are really not cut out for one another.


This is something I thought, as well. I can absolutely say that the times my ex and I were able to get along were the times when we were seeing other people. It was a band-aid to keep us together for the kid 9and then, after surprise baby #2 came along, the kid*s*). Without lovers on the side I am pretty sure the marriage would have blown up far earlier.



oldshirt said:


> If she’s buttering me up for another house, it ain’t gonna happen.


Have you explicitly told her this? Because she made an appointment with a realtor and called some painters, so I kind wonder if she got the memo. Either that or she is completely disregarding you and assumes you'll just roll over, belly up, and start packing.



Mr.Married said:


> Better yet .... sell the house but then refuse to buy another. One less divorce problem to solve. That’s what my aunt did.


Right! If you're heading toward divorce anyways why not just sell the house, nix any possible new house purchases until after the check clears, take your 50% and put into your own account in your name at a different bank, and then file.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

MJJEAN said:


> This is something I thought, as well. I can absolutely say that the times my ex and I were able to get along were the times when we were seeing other people. It was a band-aid to keep us together for the kid 9and then, after surprise baby #2 came along, the kid*s*). Without lovers on the side I am pretty sure the marriage would have blown up far earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bring divorce papers to the closing. 

The closing ends with .....I told you I wasn’t buying another house ...... then throw the papers at her. .....MIC DROP


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Warning: This is going to sound like a whinefest but I do want some outside feedback and perspective in case I am off-base here or missing something.
> 
> First a little background. About a half dozen + years ago had a real rocky point in our marriage. She was openly hostile and contemptuous of me, I was getting more and more fed up with the tone and contempt. Had the big blow out one weekend and I got the ILYBNILWY. We ended up in MC. She was very defensive and angry. Said I wasn't helping out enough with the house. Not doing enough with the kids. All I wanted was sex. I was too needy. She was too busy and had too much on her plate to deal with me etc etc.
> 
> ...


Well since you have been on this site forever I won't couch it and say my first though - Her boyfriend broke up with her. 

But lets just say maybe I am just being cynical, look at her words. "I don't want to be alone." Who is the subject of that statement. Only herself. There is no - I love you, I would miss you. It's I am going to be nice to you because you fulfill my purpose at this exact moment, like a couch or something. (I should get some reward for using that word in two different ways in one post. 😛)

Seriously how long have you been on this site? You don't have a good marriage, your wife is a bad wife. Your kids are almost grown. Your last sentence is your answer. I don't know, WTH ARE you doing there? What do you think is actually going to happen?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> How many times have you seen me say the exact same things to other guys LOL.
> 
> I’m stuck in some kind of Paralysis By Analysis loop.
> 
> It’s kind of like I know I am not in my right mind, but am I not in my right mind for wanting out ? or am I not in my right mind for hoping things can get better?


Or maybe you're just afraid, like a lot of people in your situation? Maybe it's time to admit it, because then you will know you have to find your courage and do it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Well since you have been on this site forever I won't couch it and say my first though - Her boyfriend broke up with her.
> 
> But lets just say maybe I am just being cynical, look at her words. "I don't want to be alone." Who is the subject of that statement. Only herself. There is no - I love you, I would miss you. It's I am going to be nice to you because you fulfill my purpose at this exact moment,


Those are the exact same thoughts that went through my mind immediately as well. 

I have done everything but hire a PI or take her computer in in search of evidence of an affair (and I know how and where to look) but have never been able to find anything.

As far as not wanting to be alone, yes I think she was sincere in not wanting to be alone but there wasn’t anything about wanting to be with me specifically.

I think that’s why the only response I’ve had to any of this is saying, “OK.”


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Actually I have already said that. She started sniffing out houses/properties last summer and I very matter of factly and dispassionately informed her I wouldn’t be going with her and if the kids didn’t want to go, I would take legal action to allow them to stay in their current home.
> 
> This ain’t my first rodeo.


Yeah she sound like a jerk. And you should realize she has been where you are now (pretty much done) for many years.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> WTF!!!!!!!!


My wife went through phases where she constantly wanted to move and buy a new house. This coincided with her emotional struggles and not feeling happy. The notion of selling a house in my opinion equates to, "relocation therapy." As in trying to escape from where she is and hoping that a new place will solve all her problems and make life exciting again. 

My wife has since done a ton of work on her own self development and knows from within how to be happy and share that with me. As a result we are happy with our home (same one she long ago wanted to sell) and can see our future together here long term. We do enjoy getting out of the house often to go on hikes and adventures, but now we have a solid sense of where our home is. 

So in my opinion this business of your wife wanting to sell your home is just her trying to escape from herself and all the problems she has as a result of not working on her own self development in a way that makes life fulfilling. Yes, location can make a big difference but if she doesn't work on herself all she will be doing is relocating her problems and adding to that the stress of changing addresses, packing, moving, and probably losing a ton of money because the housing market is about to take a dump once the foreclosure bubble erupts with all those that have lost their jobs and have been unwilling to downsize or keep up with payments.


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## Kamstel2 (Feb 24, 2020)

Why are you living like this?
This certainly isn’t a marriage!!!!

whatever her issues are, and there are PLENTY, they are her issues!!!

just go and file, then find a woman who actually loves you and actually wants to be with you!!! And not just some guy who will help finance the next Barbie Dream House


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Oldshirt, with all due respect, I wasn't expecting to hear this from you man, of all people after the advice you give. Time to take some of that to heart and set things straight! You know you deserve better, your kids are nearly grown so no need to bide time anymore. Mr. Married said it best...



Mr.Married said:


> Sorry man.. your a long time poster here and I respect your opinions, but at this point, after this many years, your a willing victim to the situation and the problem isn’t her.... it’s you. Blame her all you want but your the person responsible for your life not her.
> 
> Give yourself some of that advice you give others and act on it. From the outside looking in the answer to your problem is very simple.... and obvious. Dude.... get a divorce already. Sunk cost fallacy is sinking the ship called “The Rest of Your Life”.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

The point where she shows up like she did wanting to reconnect and your thought is, “meh...”. You have already mentally and kind of even physically moved on.

If you withdraw more it seems like she might even be more attracted but if resentment has already poisoned any feelings it seems better to continue as you are until you’re ready to rip the bandaid off.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> What is her reasoning for wanting a new house?


She has this need for change, not for men, only for abodes with new commodes.

I place Uranus in her 4th, or badly aspecting it.

By chance, which of her parents was unstable, maybe a wanderer?
Is she estranged with one, or both parents?


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Dread works but it has to come real work. When you’ve been together for as long as you have, your wife can smell changes from a mile away. 

Now that you’re getting your mojo back, she can see that you’re desirable but after so many years of not even trying in your marriage, she probably thinks just feigning some interest in you is enough because it probably worked in the past . I’ll sex him up a few times and I’ll have him eating out of my hand. Your indifference this time has her dreading what you have cooking.

This will eventually force her to really try and up her game but the problem for her is that it may already be too late. You’re already at the precipice of moving on from her. Now that you’ve started getting yourself on point, don’t be surprised when other women come sniffing around at New Shirt.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I’m stuck in some kind of Paralysis By Analysis loop.


No. What really happened is that you never got the balls to end it, like you should had those many years ago, and most likely at this point you never will.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

You've been here a long time. What would you advise another man going through the same thing?

Your wife is afraid of being alone, what are you afraid of? Why are you still married to her?


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## SGr (Mar 19, 2015)

Reading this thread has me reminded me of Cromer. 

Tapatalk


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

pastasauce79 said:


> You've been here a long time. What would you advise another man going through the same thing?
> 
> Your wife is afraid of being alone, what are you afraid of? Why are you still married to her?


Like many such men, he is waiting for a _DISA_. 
A dame in shining armor.

_THRD_ finally went over the wall and went to his _Nellie_.

_Oldshirt_ needs to find his own saving lover.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You went your own way and did your own thing. She dangled a carrot but you didn’t bite.

Now she’s frustrated because she has no control over you.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

First of all, I want to be clear about something - women who mother like your wife ("Kids ONLY", NOT "Kids First") do it in general for their own needs - if it was about her kid's needs, she would have made sure YOU, as the father of her children, were an integral part of HER life, because she would have appreciated what YOU brought to her life and the lives of her children. I don't see that at all in what you've described.

Becoming a mother made me more caring and giving IN GENERAL, not only to my children. It certainly didn't make me disregard my husband as someone who needed my care and interest - even my second husband!!! Because I valued what he was to me in our relationship, and I WANTED him to be part of my sphere of love and care...because I loved and cared about him. So make no mistake, she pushed you aside because she wanted to.

So as someone who has lived this (although for a much shorter time, because my STBX's selfish disregard was much more direct than your wife's has been), I can tell you that your response to her sudden interest in reconnecting makes PERFECT sense.

OF COURSE you are angry and suspicious - those are wise and prudent reactions to someone who has shown you over YEARS that they care about their needs only, and seem to be willing to use you, while not really valuing you as an actual partner in any way.

Do you want to know how someone REALLY feels about you...?? Give them COMPLETE FREEDOM to be themselves. Don't put any restrictions or conditions on them or YOUR love whatsoever. And very shortly you will be able to tell what you really mean to them. That's one reason I value freedom so highly - it breeds truth and authenticity. But there is a catch - you have to be courageous enough to believe what they show you.

The problem you are having is...YOU DON'T TRUST HER. And rightly so. What she has done to you and your marriage is basically exactly the same as an affair -- she betrayed you and your marriage vows, it was just with HERSELF and not another man. She shut you out of her heart and life, and pursued her own wants and desires that didn't include you at all. She REJECTED you for her own self and her own needs. And blame shifted and gaslighted you anytime you tried to say you weren't happy. It is definitely an epic betrayal.

So now her declarations of wanting to go back to having a happy marriage and actual caring relationship seem like one big manipulation...because they probably ARE.

She's not asking herself what she needs to do to be a loving, caring partner to you - she's asking herself what she needs to keep from being alone. That's a HUGE difference. In her mind, everything is all about HER...because it's probably always been, even in the beginning when you were happy. It just wasn't noticeable or a problem because you guys were young and having fun. Of course it's easy to be happy in the beginning.

I find her attitude interesting, because it's clear that she fully expects to get what she wants. And why wouldn't she, you've been giving her what SHE wants all these years. All she's needed to do is throw out an "oh so we're back at THIS again..." at you, and you back off and give her what she wants (your invisibility). The appropriate response to that is actually, "Yeah, you are fvcking right we are, if you are going to treat me poorly again"...it's NEVER the right response to capitulate your needs and even WANTS. Marriage is supposed to be a caring, equal partnership - if you aren't willing to fight for and protect THAT, you don't have a real marriage anyway. 

In your case, it sounds like you were actually just emotionally exhausted from being outright disregarded and bullied into submission for so long...but the results are the same - you are clinging to a relationship that has been on life support with no actual signs of life for a very long time. And you've been content with the MEMORY of happier times to help you cope with that reality.

Now that you've basically given up (and done "the 180"), she is predictably coming back around to get what she wants again - security, a new house, whatever. Most likely, once she has what she wants, she will go back to being her real self and showing her real feelings...just like almost all of them do. Again, motivating (manipulating) someone to love you rarely works in the long term (sadly). I highly doubt she will be serving you with divorce papers...unless you really do put your foot down and refuse to indulge her - THEN she might be willing to cut her losses and move on. But without that, it seems like your marriage/roommate situation has been working well for her and given her what SHE needs for all these years, so I can't see why she would want to change that.

This all sounds VERY painful to live with for so long, and I really hope things work out with her in the way that makes you happy.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> How many times have you seen me say the exact same things to other guys LOL.
> 
> I’m stuck in some kind of Paralysis By Analysis loop.
> 
> It’s kind of like I know I am not in my right mind, but am I not in my right mind for wanting out ? or am I not in my right mind for hoping things can get better?


What does "hoping things can get better" look like to you? Take a real, honest look at that FOR YOU, and then a real, honest look at if you REALLY believe those changes are possible.

WHAT could she do that would make it "better"...where you would feel like YOU wanted to also reconnect with her. Maybe even make an actual list of what you need and want from her (or any partner), and then evaluate whether any of those things are actually what she has shown she is willing to do, in ANY way.

Part of the reason you are able to maintain this outlook (hoping it could get better), is just like how you can slowly boil a frog. If you started a new relationship with someone and they treated you like she has been, almost ANY sacrifice would be worth getting away from them, because you know your own value and you respect yourself enough to refuse to be treated in any way that doesn't live up to what you believe you deserve from a potential partner.

However, with your wife, her attitude toward you over the years has altered your confidence in and perception of your own value, so your bar of what is acceptable treatment has fallen below what you would tolerate from probably anyone else.

You are now like that frog in the pot of almost boiling water who doesn't realize the danger of how much the water he's been swimming in has heated up, because he's been acclimated to a "new normal"...but he's NOT in normal water - he's in a pot and needs to jump out to save himself. He's been tricked into thinking that water that's about to kill him is the same temperature as when he first got in the pot -- but it's NOT.

And I think THAT is how you have been "paralyzed" into inaction.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Some people stay in a marriage because it's convenient, or easier, even if they don't love their partner anymore. I think this is pretty common. When the kids get older, then the issues become more real, because you are not as busy. It depends on what you want from the marriage. When the kids leave, it's crunch time. I can see why some partners might want to rekindle. It's safe. It's something you know, it's something you can trust.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Livvie said:


> I've gotta ask. How many cats do you have?


How many cats does _she_ have?

Cats are cool, one is enough. 

They go through tons of kitty litter.
Which is a good thing...


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> I need to be very careful what I say about you and your situation, Oldshirt... I'll sleep over it... see you tomorrow...
> 
> actually, I'll say something now...  it seems to me that your wife is having an empty-nest syndrome attack. Like my wife did. She had a nervous breakdown when she realised she was going to be on her own, completely. Your wife knows you are rebuilding your life and that you'll probably leave her very soon and she is frightened.


Aye...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Just because people don’t want to be alone doesn’t mean they’re willing to put in the time and energy to make a marriage work. There may be temporary change but permanent change requires more than they’re willing to give.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

So just a quick update. I have settled back down and do not have the anger and resentment that I did the other night when I posted. You can't hear me pounding the keyboard keys across the room today LOL

I am actually at a fairly peaceful state at the moment. I'm living my life at the moment and she is free to live hers. 

I did have a little heart to heart with the 19 year old as she was getting ready to leave for work. I told her that the realitor was coming today but that I am NOT going to be moving. I told her that as an adult she is free to do as she wishes and if she wanted to move with her mom that I would understand and have no resentments or issues with that and that we would continue to maintain a daddy-daughter relationship as is. 

And if she would rather remain with me that that of course is fine as well. And if she wants to bounce back and forth for change of scenery, that is all fine and dandy as well. 

She was actually good with all of that and she too thinks that her mom is unrealistic in thinking she's going to find something that we are all going to just pack up and move. I felt a sense of relief in DD that I was not entertaining the idea of moving for no reason. 

I am going to have a similar discussion with the 16 year old today. He is a lot more rigid in his routines and being a minor in high school there is more at stake. My wife is ok with him driving to his school from out of district and him having up to a half hour drive to school ----- I AM NOT!!

He is not moving out of the district if he doesn't want to. PERIOD. 

I will get lawyers and take that up with the courts if it comes down to that. 

the 19 year old thinks her mom is simply off-base and unrealistic and it just ain't gonna happen. 16 year old son thinks she's just F'n nuts. That's a fine line to toe for me as I do not want him having a strained relationship with his mother, but it is important for a young man to recognise bat shyte crazy when he sees it. 

In the mean time the realitor will be going through the house this afternoon and if I even bother to be here, if she asks me anything, my response is going to be a very calm and matter of fact, "I'm not moving and I'm not planning on selling the house." If that happens, I have the feeling she will say to have a nice day and then do an about-face and walk out the door.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> I am actually at a fairly peaceful state at the moment. I'm living my life at the moment and she is free to live hers.


But you're not officially separated yet? Does your wife know your intentions?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> In the mean time the realitor will be going through the house this afternoon and if I even bother to be here, if she asks me anything, my response is going to be a very calm and matter of fact, "I'm not moving and I'm not planning on selling the house." If that happens, I have the feeling she will say to have a nice day and then do an about-face and walk out the door.


So. Let her walk.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Why didn't you give the realtor a call and tell her that you are not willing to sell? That would have saved her a trip. Have you told your wife yet?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Why didn't you give the realtor a call and tell her that you are not willing to sell? That would have saved her a trip. Have you told your wife yet?


I agree. Why even let her move along with this plan? If I owned a house jointly and the other owner had the audacity to make an appointment with a realtor to come in, I'd meet that realtor at the door and announce there is no agreed upon decision to sell. I wouldn't let the realtor step foot in the house. 

Maybe now is the time to have a talk about separating.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Sounds like she has had a moment of clarity, and realizes what a great guy you are!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Marc878 said:


> So. Let her walk.


I will.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> Why didn't you give the realtor a call and tell her that you are not willing to sell? That would have saved her a trip. Have you told your wife yet?


This isn’t a first time, out of the blue thing. It is a fairly predictable pattern. 

We have had many talks about this lately and she knows the chances of me moving are extremely small and everything would have to be just perfect and the chances of that happening in our market area are 1 in a million. 

I’m not going to argue or propagate conflict. I’m simply not going to move unless both kids and I want to, and she is free to move if she wants. 

No realitor is going to entertain this without my agreement and signature. Even if it is technically legal to put a house on the market without both signatures, I doubt if anyone wants the hassle or complication.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

That's nice. You didn't answer the question. I'm going to guess that you are conflict avoidant. Why are you afraid of your wife?


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

When you let your wife get things in motion, she is showing how much power she has over everyone at home. A little move here, a little move there and you'll be trapped in another big move.

Unfreeze yourself and get control of the situation!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> That's nice. You didn't answer the question. I'm going to guess that you are conflict avoidant. Why are you afraid of your wife?


I'm pretty sure the realtor would still want to go anyway. A good realtor is used to family drama and may be able to make them both an offer they can't refuse since the market is so crazy right now!


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## SGr (Mar 19, 2015)

badsanta said:


> I'm pretty sure the realtor would still want to go anyway. A good realtor is used to family drama and may be able to make them both an offer they can't refuse since the market is so crazy right now!


While a good realtor might be able to get them "an offer they can't refuse" in this crazy market, keep in mind this will mean Oldshirt and his wife will also become buyers in this crazy market.

This all hinges on if he decides he wants to move or they decide to go their separate ways, which complicates things further. 

Or simplifies it - depending on how you look at it.

Tapatalk


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I'm pretty sure the realtor would still want to go anyway. A good realtor is used to family drama and may be able to make them both an offer they can't refuse since the market is so crazy right now!


I don't think you can be sure of that. If OP had called the realtor and said DON'T COME I'm pretty sure a reasonable person wouldn't show up anyway.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Openminded said:


> Sounds like it’s all about a new house.


I think the other option, actually - divorce.

She's out to get her needs met with minimum effort. Waits until the last minute to acknowledge his needs as valid. Does the absolute minimum to meet those needs. Complains about what she doesn't have.

And most recently it's not "I love you", "I miss you", etc. It's "I don't want to be alone".

She knows she's used him up (the comment about this being the last move) and she doesn't feel that she's getting enough out of the situation to make it worth her effort.

Done deal he's getting served.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

aine said:


> Sorry @oldshirt, sounds like you are having a pretty miserable time. Tell her you want to have alone time with her to discuss some issues in your marriage and to make a plan for the future.
> Prepare before hand with a list of all the things you have mentioned here.
> Confront her with the points you have raised here (record the meeting, for your own analysis later).
> Giver her a time frame to resolve the issues
> ...


Yes, and start by saying that she's not treating your needs as valid, and she knows it.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

jsmart said:


> To be honest it sounds like she had an affair that caused her to detach from you and she’s not able to reconnect with you. The wanting to move from the last house smelled of wanting to leave the scene of the crime. She hoped it would help her forget someone that she may have desecrated the house with?
> 
> as for her now reaching out to you since you’ve been doing your own thing? That’s dread. You’re showing through your actions that you can move on. She can sense that your not bluffing. You’re now on your way to full detachment and she is noticing that the new you is desirable.


My thoughts exactly!!!


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## Thisnotthat (Oct 28, 2020)

Oldshirt, I'm so right there with you, man. Except for one thing... You need to tell your wife what you posted here. Unambiguously, directly and with no equivocation! You are NOT moving, you are NOT selling the house! 

You sound like a good man that's made up his mind, now you need to own that. You don't need to worry about how she reacts, or what she says... at this point you don't need to worry about pleasing her at all. Seriously, you've drawn the line in the sand. own it, man! 

Right now she's testing you in a really big way. When you give answers like "almost no chance we're selling the house" your failing. Your failing to be clear, solid, your failing at being a man. Do not betray yourself this time. The answer is NO, NADA, No fricking way, end of conversation and go get bent while your at it, woman!" Okay the "go get bent" part is optional, but I bet it'd make you feel really good if you included it.

Oh, and call the realestate agent before she comes over and let her know, too. That's just fair dealing and your worthy of that.

Good luck, man. The rest of your life is defined by what's happening right now.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Thisnotthat said:


> Right now she's testing you in a really big way.


I don't think she is testing him... she sounds a bit bonkers to me. Believe me, I'm an expert in mad wives...


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

Could be a number of reasons. She has been having an affair that has ended. She wants to butter you up for a nice new house. You have detached enough from her for her to notice that she is losing you (is this your first solo vacation).

My advice is to do what you want and don't deviate. You don't want to move, so don't.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Not being able to just give a firm flat no is odd. Apparently he can’t say no. They’ve had 8 houses. I predict a ninth.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Not really much to report today. 

The realitor was here and went through the house and gave her a general estimate on what she thought the house would be worth in current market. 

There wasn’t any discussion on actually listing it at this time. 

I was home at the time but mostly did my own thing. 

I over heard wife saying what she (funny how she would use the word “we” however) was looking for in another house and the realitor would just look at her blankly and then very politely and politically correctly say that it would be very “challenging” to find such a place in our area. 

Even the realitor doesn’t think it’s realistic.

I did talk to both kids yesterday and assured them I had no intention of moving and assured them I would protect their rights to stay if she did try to leave.

She may leave me but she won’t leave kids. 

The 19 year old can go and do what she wants and she’s wanting to go away to college once schools open the classrooms back up anyway. 

The 16 year old will put up a fight and do whatever I can to protect him.

Otherwise it was all business as usual as is today. She is doing her thing and I am doing mine.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> Not being able to just give a firm flat no is odd. Apparently he can’t say no. They’ve had 8 houses. I predict a ninth.


What I have given her is my criteria for it will take for me to agree to move.

A big part of that is that the 16 year enthusiastically wants to move and that it is a reasonable distance for him to remain in the same school. 

That and my other criteria will basically make anything short of winning the lottery impossible. 

So I have said no to several houses and properties and stated what criteria are necessary for me to even consider it or look at it ..... and even if something does meet that criteria, I still reserve the right to say no.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> Not being able to just give a firm flat no is odd. Apparently he can’t say no. They’ve had 8 houses. I predict a ninth.


Oh, and as I stated earlier, we have only owned 3 houses. The others were rentals.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> I don't think she is testing him... she sounds a bit bonkers to me. Believe me, I'm an expert in mad wives...


Yeah, it’s not a test. 

She is right on schedule for wanting another house. It’s an established pattern. 

The difference is this time I am too old and grumpy to be packing boxes and the kids are old enough to state if they want to move or not.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Thisnotthat said:


> Right now she's testing you in a really big way. When you give answers like "almost no chance we're selling the house" your failing. Your failing to be clear, solid, your failing at being a man. Do not betray yourself this time. The answer is NO, NADA, No fricking way, end of conversation and go get bent while your at it, woman!" Okay the "go get bent" part is optional, but I bet it'd make you feel really good if you included it



I get your point and at times it does come down to that. 

But the way I operate in general is I don’t knee-jerk say no to things. Instead I state what criteria I need and what the boundaries are.

When the 16 year old wants a crotch-rocket, I don’t say no. I tell him he needs a job so he can afford the payments of $15,000 bike and the $150/month for insurance and gas because I’m not paying for it. 

It’s the same way with the house. I stated my criteria and parameters. 

The chances of finding something that meets the parameters is very small but if that 1 in a million does turn up, I’ll keep an open mind and look at at. 

There are some things that I would consider so I’ll keep an open mind. But I do realize the chances of it are very small.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

So you can’t just say no, I don’t want to move? I get not wanting to be the person that always drops a no. But in essence, you’re saying yes. She hears yes. And she’s gotten a yes multiple times in the past.
It’s not time for a no? Really, you think no. Just say no. 
Are you wanting for change things? Change them. Ask her if she’d like to go out and have a nice evening together followed by passionate sex. If it’s a no, continue detaching and divorce.


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## My Monsters (Mar 13, 2021)

Old shirt...sounds a bit like your married to my husband. I chose to just accept that he isn’t going to change. Eventually you have to decide do you keep holding on to hope or do you accept this is the way they are and are you ok with the status quo for the rest of your life. After much research and specialists, I learned his illness and medication are what completely changed his sex drive and personality.

You can only change yourself, you can’t change the other person. Working on yourself is a positive step you can make and may help you with what you want your future to be.


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## Thisnotthat (Oct 28, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> But the way I operate in general is I don’t knee-jerk say no to things. Instead I state what criteria I need and what the boundaries are.


Oldshirt, my dude! NOOOOO! You've just broken my heart now, too. That (above) is how you go about specifying military hardware, or asphalt for a road construction project. Its a $hitty @ss way to make life decisions. Have you always let circumstances decide your life? Just say NO! or maybe Fvck No, or over my dead body no...! Parameters? Be serious! 



oldshirt said:


> When the 16 year old wants a crotch-rocket, I don’t say no. I tell him he needs a job so he can afford the payments of $15,000 bike and the $150/month for insurance and gas because I’m not paying for it.


That's a ******** answer. You tell him he can't have a crotch-rocket because he's 16 and your not going to watch him wrap his brain around a telephone pole (at least not until he's 18, anyway). You do that because your a dad and that's what good dads do. Yes, he'll be all pissed off and butt hurt, but he'll be alive and healthy to be all pissed off and butt hurt. That's not about "parameters". Its binary. Your wife is either your wife or she's not. She can act like a wife or your not going to be her husband anymore. Your either your kids dad and you love them and protect them or you don't. You own all of this or you don't, and it really sounds like you haven't; and since you did nothing while a realtor trapesed around your house that you won't. Your either moving or your not. If your happy in your house and it meets your needs then just stay there, but say that! Don't pile up a bunch of ridiculous criteria and then pout about it when your wife call's your bluff. 

I'd be frustrated too!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Yeah, it’s not a test.
> 
> She is right _on schedule_ for wanting another house. It’s an established pattern.


What is this schedule you talk about?

Is it (roughly) every 3, 7, 21 years, or what?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

*“I told her parents and family that in a handful of years when she wants to move again, I will not be accompanying her and if the kids did not want to move, I would go to court for them to stay.”*

The above was in your first post in this thread. You told them that eight years ago. Now you’re back-pedaling so you don’t look like the bad guy. She’s really the one in charge of your life. Sorry, but that’s how it looks to me.


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## cp3o (Jun 2, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> .........
> I want to have a sex life with another human being and I'm not going to waste that time and energy with myself. And I requested some vacation time and am planning a solo vacation next month to go see some old and dear friends halfway across the country.
> 
> SOOOOOOOO two nights ago, I am heading to bed and out of the blue she gets infront of me and blurts out that we need to get closer and we need to reconnect. I'm standing there looking at her and all I can say is, OK." then I go around her and go to bed.
> ...


Sorry to read this.

Assuming your wife is aware of what you say - it sounds to me as though your trip is the equivalent of the oft-touted technique - using divorce papers in the hope of inducing reality. 

You are going away without her, she won't know where you are or who you are with, and you want a sex life.

Does she think you won't come back?

If so - you have to decide whether to go - because if you come back the cycle will, I suspect, repeat until you are no longer able to leave.

Does she want you - or the life she has with you?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Openminded said:


> *“I told her parents and family that in a handful of years when she wants to move again, I will not be accompanying her and if the kids did not want to move, I would go to court for them to stay.”*
> 
> The above was in your first post in this thread. You told them that eight years ago. Now you’re back-pedaling so you don’t look like the bad guy. She’s really the one in charge of your life. Sorry, but that’s how it looks to me.


I’m not sure where you’re getting that I’m backpedaling. 

What I told her family is coming to fruition. She’s getting houseitis again and I’m not moving just as I said I wouldn’t.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not sure where you’re getting that I’m backpedaling.
> 
> What I told her family is coming to fruition. She’s getting houseitis again and I’m not moving just as I said I wouldn’t.


....then why not cancel the realtor before she came?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Thisnotthat said:


> Oldshirt, my dude! NOOOOO! You've just broken my heart now, too. That (above) is how you go about specifying military hardware, or asphalt for a road construction project. Its a $hitty @ss way to make life decisions. Have you always let circumstances decide your life? Just say NO! or maybe Fvck No, or over my dead body no...! Parameters? Be serious!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m afraid we simply have some different outlooks on things. 

If you want a crotch rocket, you need to get a job that will afford one and afford the fortune of insurance. 

I’m not going to pay for your demise. It’s on you and you’re going to have to be a responsible employed adult on your own if you want to get one.

I don’t have to say no. I’m not going to buy one so It’s just a reality you won’t be able to get one on you’re own. 

Reality is the ultimate authority.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> ....then why not cancel the realtor before she came?


Because nothing is going to come of her visit anyway.

I’m not putting the house on the market.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not sure where you’re getting that I’m backpedaling.
> 
> What I told her family is coming to fruition. She’s getting houseitis again and I’m not moving just as I said I wouldn’t.


That’s not exactly what you’ve said though. You haven’t firmly and finally said “ABSOLUTELY NOT”.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> Because nothing is going to come of her visit anyway.
> 
> *I’m not putting the house on the market.*


I doubt your wife knows that. 

At some point you’re going to have to say that really hard word (NO) to her. Putting it off doesn’t make it any easier.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Openminded said:


> That’s not exactly what you’ve said though. You haven’t firmly and finally said “ABSOLUTELY NOT”.





Openminded said:


> I doubt your wife knows that.
> 
> At some point you’re going to have to say that really hard word (NO) to her. Putting it off doesn’t make it any easier.


This isn’t my first rodeo here. 

I have said no to many houses and I have no desire and no intention of moving at this time. 

I have said no many times to many houses. 

If I say no today, she will simply be angry and give me the cold(er) shoulder for a period of days or weeks and then just start in again. 

I’m done discussing it. I’m done arguing about it and trying to reason with it. (It can’t be bargained with. It doesn’t feel pain LOL) 

I’m done having it be a point of contention and conflict all the time.

Actions speak louder than words. No more words (sing it!!) 

My actions are going to be - nothing. 

I’m not going to sign any papers. I’m not going to look at any houses. I’m not going to pack any boxes. I’m not going to list the house. I am basically not going to entertain this. 

SO LET ME MAKE SOMETHING CLEAR TO ALL OF YOU PEOPLE. - I HAVE ALREADY SAID NO. I have already said it years ago and have maintained frame since. 

I am simply backing up my words with action (or inaction in this case). 

IT’S BEEN SAID. I’m backing it up with deed now. 

My silence will be deafening.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

The TLDR version is I have already said no.

I’ve already explained to her family and to the kids that I will not be moving. Period.

I talked the talk and I am now walking the walk. 

If she point blank asked me if I will put the house on the market and sign the listing papers - I will say no, and then I will go to the refrigerator and make myself a sammich. 

Now does she believe me at this point and believe that I won’t be swayed?? Maybe.

But I don’t care. I don’t care what she does or does not believe at this point. 

I have spoken the words many times since our last move. 

The discussion is over.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> This isn’t my first rodeo here.
> 
> I have said no to many houses and I have no desire and no intention of moving at this time.
> 
> ...



dude, you give good advice here. I’ve read it on many occasions.
I’m pretty surprised you’re saying this.
You can’t tell her no because she’s gonna you the cold shoulder? You e said the whole thread that the only thing she gives you is the cold shoulder. What will change other than she can save herself the trouble of looking and wasting other people’s time?

Actions speak louder than words? So you take no action?

You are going to stay with her for years of unhappiness because you won’t take any action.

This isn’t what you’d advise others to do.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Now as far as the realitor - I do not give one twinkle toe’d, fat frog’s azz what the realitor says, thinks or does and I do not give one rat’s azz or squirt of pi$$ about her time.

In order for to call and cancel her would have meant I would have had to pick up the phone, dial the number and talk to her or leave a message. 

That was too much of my time and energy and time out of my day to do that. 

Screw her, I don’t care enough to even talk to her. 

If she ever asks me if I’ll sign papers to list the house, I’ll say no, I’m not selling and then go make myself a sammich. 

She’ll be gone before I have the sammich eaten and she won’t be back.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> dude, you give good advice here. I’ve read it on many occasions.
> I’m pretty surprised you’re saying this.
> You can’t tell her no because she’s gonna you the cold shoulder? You e said the whole thread that the only thing she gives you is the cold shoulder. What will change other than she can save herself the trouble of looking and wasting other people’s time?
> 
> ...


You’re talking about two different things here.

I’m taking about her wanting to move. I’m not moving. I’m not looking at houses and I’m not listing this house.

That is what I meant about I’m not discussing it with her and that inaction will speak louder than words. 

Whether we remain together or not is another subject. 

If she wants to leave that’s her perogative. But it is a separate issue. 

If she signs away her rights to this house and walks, so be it.

If she files for divorce and sues for her share of the equity, then it will just be another run of the mill divorce case where people deal with the division of assets and properties. 

There’s nothing that I can do about that now that would prevent that. We are each entitled to our share of the assets and equity etc, whether she files or whether I file.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I'm confused. Are you planning on staying in the marriage?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> I'm confused. Are you planning on staying in the marriage?


The confusion is coming from people having a bit of a snit about me not stopping the realitor coming to look at the house and not telling my wife TODAY that I’m not moving.

I’ve been telling her for 7 years I’m not moving so I’m not wasting my breath or energy to say it for the umpteeth time again now. 

My silence and inaction is my answer to that. 

Whether we remain together or not is a separate issue.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Livvie said:


> I'm confused. Are you planning on staying in the marriage?


It sounds like it, as best as I can tell if a divorce is going to happen. It will require decisive leadership and action from @oldshirt’s wife.

Seriously oldshirt, your sex life sux, your marriage sux, your wife doesn’t like you. And you have rolled over on this for years, while being conflict avoidant.

If that’s what you want, more power to you. Yet absent calling an end to this nonsense, all you are doing is whinging to no end.

Good luck though.


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

Why are you even in this marriage?? You want to have sex and you certainly aren't getting it from her, might as well divorce and stop wasting life in this mess. It would solve all the problems you speak of.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Old shirt, I'm sorry you're going through this crap.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> The confusion is coming from people having a bit of a snit about me not stopping the realitor coming to look at the house and not telling my wife TODAY that I’m not moving.
> 
> I’ve been telling her for 7 years I’m not moving so I’m not wasting my breath or energy to say it for the umpteeth time again now.
> 
> ...


not really. Silence and inaction is why you’re unhappy in your marriage. Why can’t you see that?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Evinrude58 said:


> not really. Silence and inaction is why you’re unhappy in your marriage. Why can’t you see that?


I don't know...I don't see it as much as WHY his wife isn't meeting his needs, but maybe more of a coping strategy for living with it. Because there are some spouses who know they are making their partners unhappy, but who won't change, or who pretend they are trying to change, or who will blame shift and gaslight their partner until they leave them alone. And sometimes, it's NOT easy or the right time to give up and leave those marriages. 

Like many people have said on here to other posters - when the pain and sacrifice of staying outweighs the pain and sacrifice of leaving, the "paralyzed" spouse will finally choose to go (most of the time).

What it sounds like @oldshirt is doing to cope with a wife who hasn't really responded to any of his numerous attempts to shift her out of her comfort zone and back into a vital, connected relationship is a modified 180. This may or may not have any impact on HER, but it's allowing him to remain in his home, with his kids, and in a mostly friendly partnership with a roommate, without expectations that cause him pain and disappointment. 

If it works for him right now while he figures out what his next steps should be, I think it's the best idea for the situation he's in.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> What I have given her is my criteria for it will take for me to agree to move.
> 
> A big part of that is that the 16 year enthusiastically wants to move and that it is a reasonable distance for him to remain in the same school.
> 
> ...


Why even bother giving her ANY criteria -- how about THIS as a criteria " NO, I'm not moving. I've moved TOO much in my life and I like THIS house. PERIOD" Why are you giving her this 'false hope' thing? Is this just to avoid an argument or is more going on here?

EDT: Old shirt, I sent this before I saw your responses about WHY you aren't telling her.
You are clearly REALLY pissed off at your wife (for good reasons). If you tell her and she gives you the cold shoulder -- what real change is that from what you get now?


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> But the way I operate in general is I don’t knee-jerk say no to things. Instead I state what criteria I need and what the boundaries are.
> 
> When the 16 year old wants a crotch-rocket, I don’t say no. I tell him he needs a job so he can afford the payments of $15,000 bike and the $150/month for insurance and gas because I’m not paying for it.
> 
> It’s the same way with the house. I stated my criteria and parameters.


The difference is you are TRYING to teach your 16 year old about responsibilities. For your wife YOU are not her father. You shouldn't be "teaching" here -- just flat out stating your opinions.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> I don't know...I don't see it as much as WHY his wife isn't meeting his needs, but maybe more of a coping strategy for living with it. Because there are some spouses who know they are making their partners unhappy, but who won't change, or who pretend they are trying to change, or who will blame shift and gaslight their partner until they leave them alone. And sometimes, it's NOT easy or the right time to give up and leave those marriages.
> 
> Like many people have said on here to other posters - when the pain and sacrifice of staying outweighs the pain and sacrifice of leaving, the "paralyzed" spouse will finally choose to go (most of the time).
> 
> ...


I agree with you. That’s exactly what he’s doing. I just think he’s wasting his life with a woman that doesn’t love him. It’s definitely his choice.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jlg07 said:


> Why even bother giving her ANY criteria -- how about THIS as a criteria " NO, I'm not moving. I've moved TOO much in my life and I like THIS house. PERIOD" Why are you giving her this 'false hope' thing? Is this just to avoid an argument or is more going on here?


see posts #107 and #108. 

I have already told her that and am done talking about it. 

Her false hopes are on her now. Not my circus, not my monkey.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Because nothing is going to come of her visit anyway.
> 
> I’m not putting the house on the market.


Which is a convenient way of avoiding confrontation with your wife. 

Your wife is not the only one practicing deception.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> This isn’t my first rodeo here.
> 
> I have said no to many houses and I have no desire and no intention of moving at this time.
> 
> ...


Not your first rodeo, but your previous rides have not exactly produced the golden belt buckle...have they...

You and your wife both have the same problem. You hope for things to get better by expecting the other to move.

Your are missing the boat, my friend. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Your are missing the boat, my friend.


Agree... it's easy to talk, but when it's YOUR marriage, things all of sudden get very complicated...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Agree... it's easy to talk, but when it's YOUR marriage, things all of sudden get very complicated...


Actually it comes down to personality. Conflict avoidant people, do things to avoid conflict. Decisive people act decisively, even and especially when it's their marriage. I know I certainly acted decisively when I ended my first marriage, and I would still act decisively again if my marriage was broken since that is how I am.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Personal said:


> Decisive people act decisively, even and especially when it's their marriage.


Possibly. I haven't seen any examples yet. Maybe I've been unlucky.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> Actually it comes down to personality. Conflict avoidant people, do things to avoid conflict. Decisive people act decisively, even and especially when it's their marriage. I know I certainly acted decisively when I ended my first marriage, and I would still act decisively again if my marriage was broken since that is how I am.


A couple different things taking place here. The issue with her wanting another house, I AM being decisive. See my posts #107 and 108. I've already said my piece and have stated my position and I am done talking about it. I'm simply not moving and you don't need to say your not moving louder, you simply don't sign papers or pack boxes or load moving trucks.

The relationship issues are a separate issue. On that, yes I have been hooked on the Hopium and somewhat stuck in a paralysis by analysis loop. 

- She has always consistently maintained that she loves me, wants to be with me and wants to remain together - so do I leave because she doesn't act like a lovesick teenager at 50some years old and after 25 years of marriage??

-What I have reported here is the condensed version of all the negative. But the reality is 90% of the time she is respectful, cordial and cooperative and does strive to work together to make a functional home and family life - Do I throw her out because things aren't 100% to my satisfaction 100% of the time?

- we technically do not have a sexless marriage. She does not actually reject or refuse me per se. I could have sex this morning if I made all the moves and there wasn't anything more pressing that needed to be done. She would comply and do it.. but she would likely not be present or engaged. It would be duty sex to keep me in the house and not prowling the street. - - so do I leave on the basis of no sex when in fact, I could probably have sex with her whenever I wanted and she has never technically rejected me? Do I leave because it is not wild monkey sex???

- I have never found any evidence of her cheating (and I know how and where to look) She doesn't drink, smoke or do drugs. she is respectful and compassionate to my friends and family. She is the world's best mother. She keeps a VERY clean house. She is an educated professional and brings home a good income. She is 5'8" and 125 lb former teen model and state-level beauty pageant contestant that still turns heads and people stop talking when she walks in a room. 

- we used to have a sex life that porn stars would envy. Up until a handful years ago we had a great sex life. Menopause, chronic migraines, anxiety and host of medications have reduced her libido to almost nill. Yes, we have had some relationship issues and yes I have become bald and put on some weight in the middle that I just can't take off at 57 years old but do I kick her to the curb because she's not the hot sex kitten that would leave snail tracks for me and screw me to the point of exhaustion like when she was 25??

Please give me the one all encompassing answer. Where is the line between living my best life and pursuing my best interests vs just being an azzhole and rejecting and discarding someone who by all conventional measures is a good spouse and a good marriage? 

If she was a drunk/druggie/BSC, sure, that's valid grounds. If she was cheating, absolutely I'm out. If she came right out and says she no longer wants a sex life and rejects my advances, then I'd leave her be and seek it elsewhere without remorse. If she was just a mean, nasty beotch and was b!tchy to me all the time, then yeah, life would be better on my own. 

But none of those exit criteria exist. So is the problem actually me and that I just simply want more out of life and would just be a jerk for kicking her to the curb now and breaking up my home and family because I wasn't 100% satisfied all the time?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> A couple different things taking place here. The issue with her wanting another house, I AM being decisive. See my posts #107 and 108. I've already said my piece and have stated my position and I am done talking about it. I'm simply not moving and you don't need to say your not moving louder, you simply don't sign papers or pack boxes or load moving trucks.
> 
> The relationship issues are a separate issue. On that, yes I have been hooked on the Hopium and somewhat stuck in a paralysis by analysis loop.
> 
> ...


When menopause and all the meds etc started, she transformed into a different person. The best analogy I can come up with is If you've ever seen "Invasion of the Body Snatchers," she got replicated into a pod person. She looks the same. She has the same memories and life experiences. she goes to work and performs her same job,, she takes care of the home and family as she did. She goes through the motions of daily living, But her zest for life is gone. Her libido is gone. Her attraction and desire and passion for me is gone. 

And it's not by her choice. She misses those things too but she just doesn't have it in her anymore. 

Is that grounds for an actual divorce and splitting up the home and family? Or do I live my life and let her live hers??


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Agree... it's easy to talk, but when it's YOUR marriage, things all of sudden get very complicated...


Not the case with my advice, either.

I ended a 16 year marriage with two young kids. I don't give advice that _isn't something I have been through and done myself_. And my circumstances were way more difficult than most of the situations you read about here.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

@oldshirt it's a dead marriage, and you know it. Just divorce the witch...


Livvie said:


> Not the case with my advice, either.
> 
> I ended a 16 year marriage with two young kids. I don't give advice that _isn't something I have been through and done myself_. And my circumstances were way more difficult than most of the situations you read about here.


I wasn't talking about you. I don't know your story. The thing is, Oldshirt's marriage is dead and he is denying it because it's convenient to him. But it's not what he preaches.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> Actually it comes down to personality. Conflict avoidant people, do things to avoid conflict. Decisive people act decisively, even and especially when it's their marriage. I know I certainly acted decisively when I ended my first marriage, and I would still act decisively again if my marriage was broken since that is how I am.


There is a difference between conflict avoidant and being mindful in choosing your battles and using other strategies for conflict resolution than force. I have fought many battles and some major blow-outs over the years. I have won some and have made some concessions for the greater good in others. 

I have been decisive and taken decisive action. Some times they were the right choice. Some times it turned out to not be. 

There are things that I would pull the ejection handle for, but those things have not occurred. .....at least not yet.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> @oldshirt it's a dead marriage, and you know it. Just divorce the witch...
> 
> 
> I wasn't talking about you. I don't know your story. The thing is, Oldshirt's marriage is dead and he is denying it because it's convenient to him. But it's not what he preaches.


I agree. It's totally dead. She's a roommate who doesn't like him very much. And he's choosing to live that life. Some people do choose that, and then at a certain point it actually does get too late to leave. And then it's been their whole life.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> @oldshirt it's a dead marriage, and you know it. Just divorce the witch...
> 
> 
> I wasn't talking about you. I don't know your story. The thing is, Oldshirt's marriage is dead and he is denying it because it's convenient to him. But it's not what he preaches.


Be careful with how you label what other people do with their unhappy marriages...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> I agree. It's totally dead. She's a roommate who doesn't like him very much. And he's choosing to live that life. Some people do choose that, and then at a certain point it actually does get too late to leave. And then it's been their whole life.


So I am not arguing, I am asking for your opinion. 

Read my post #128 above and tell me if you think the marriage is dead, or just sick? 

That is where I am stuck. Is it dead or just getting old and achy and tired with age just like the rest of us? 

Am I seeing signs of life that aren't really there or am I declaring something dead prematurely without enough effort to save it? That is where I say I am stuck in paralysis by analysis.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Be careful with how you label what other people do with their unhappy marriages...


Why? I'm an expert in unhappy marriages...  In fact, my marriage is not very dissimilar from Oldshirt's. And yes, if my wife hadn't withdrawn the sexual side from it, I might have stayed. But this is not the point...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> That is where I say I am stuck in paralysis by analysis.


If you are living separate lives, so to speak, your marriage is dead. Can't you see it?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> If you are living separate lives, so to speak, your marriage is dead. Can't you see it?


But the irony to that statement is if you were to see us, I don't think YOU would see that our marriage is dead. From the outside seeing us, you may think we were a perfectly functional couple and marriage. We don't fight. We don't make digs on each other. We each are respectful and engaging with each other's friends and families. We are curteous and respectful towards each other and as I stated above, we are not technically sexless per actual definition of a sexless marriage. 

You may think we have a GOOD marriage if you hid a camera in our house. 

I get why people here think it's a bad marriage, because I have written a condensed account of all the negative. But I think if people were to actually see us, they would think we have a very sound marriage and that I was one lucky SOB to be here. 

Maybe this is all driving me to schizophrenia, but my bigger fear here isn't that I am wasting my life with someone that doesn't love or desire me and is just using me for comfort and to buy houses,,, but rather that I am the crazy one for not being content and wanting more out of life. 

I think if you were actually here, you may think I was crazy for bi+ching about it.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> So I am not arguing, I am asking for your opinion.
> 
> Read my post #128 above and tell me if you think the marriage is dead, or just sick?
> 
> ...


My opinion is that you are living your life with a woman who wants to be with you because of the life structure you provide her. Not because she wants to be with YOU.

Some people are okay living under those conditions. Some are not.

I personally (since you asked) do NOT think it's crazy or wrong to end a marriage because your spouse is only in it for the life structure. In fact, I think that's the only way to live. That's my opinion.

I think you could be in for some dark, frustrating, loveless, and lonely decades ahead if you stay with this woman. Worse than being a single man. 

Don't you want a "full service" relationship?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> But the irony to that statement is if you were to see us, I don't think YOU would see that our marriage is dead. From the outside seeing us, you may think we were a perfectly functional couple and marriage. We don't fight. We don't make digs on each other. We each are respectful and engaging with each other's friends and families. We are curteous and respectful towards each other and as I stated above, we are not technically sexless per actual definition of a sexless marriage.


This was us. Nobody suspected anything.



oldshirt said:


> Maybe this is all driving me to schizophrenia, but my bigger fear here isn't that I am wasting my life with someone that doesn't love or desire me and is just using me for comfort and to buy houses,,, but rather that I am the crazy one for not being content and wanting more out of life.
> 
> I think if you were actually here, you may think I was crazy for bi+ching about it.


I think, deep inside, you are unhappy and you want more. For example, I would have stayed even if we had sex once a month. That's not that important to me. But I need that connection. But no sex? No. I can't stay. We all have limits. So, you are not content with what you have. We are all different. Remember: this is the rest of your life without the kids. Can you have a happy enough marriage just with your wife? Will you regret it? I guess you can still divorce later...  Look, I sympathise. I've been there.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

If she’s so gorgeous and you had such great sex, why were you swinging at one time?
Just asking. Sounds like that would be enough for any man.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

I DO think that folks here focus on the negative aspect of the marriage -- that's why they are asking for advice, no?
His marriage may be great -- I think the one part that is missing for oldshirt (and please correct me here if I am wrong) -- he misses the passion that his wife had for him. Their life together in general is pretty ok for Oldshirt.
It is the lack of passion for him which REALLY shows up when they try to have sex that is so disappointing for him, especially when he compares the NOW to the past.

Oldshirt, you mention she now has a lot of physical ailments -- those will DEF mess with libido/desire and passion. Hard to be passionate about ANYTHING when you have a migraine. Menopause is (or can be) a real P.I.T.A for women -- I thank God every day I was born a man because I don't have to go through those things. That ITSELF can kill libido, and can also reduce passion for life in general.

Remember the "better or worse, sickness or health" stuff? This is the worse, and the sickness.
There ARE things that can be done to help adjust for menopause related issues and migraines, etc.. SHE has to be willing to work towards finding those solutions, and my take is that she isn't and doesn't really want to. She's content the way her life is. One thing to be careful -- is she USING those as excuses to stop having sex, or are they REALLY happening at the time she says it?

So, as you've said, are the issues you are dealing with enough to separate/divorce? Nobody here can answer that, and I think if you are honest with yourself, that answer changes all the time.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> This was us. Nobody suspected anything.
> 
> 
> 
> I think, deep inside, you are unhappy and you want more. For example, I would have stayed even if we had sex once a month. That's not that important to me. But I need that connection. But no sex? No. I can't stay. We all have limits. So, you are not content with what you have. We are all different. Remember: this is the rest of your life without the kids. Can you have a happy enough marriage just with your wife? Will you regret it? I guess you can still divorce later...  Look, I sympathise. I've been there.


If I remember correctly, not only were you in a sexless marriage, but your wife came right out and told you she no longer wanted a sex life. 

I am in kind of the opposite situation. I am being told she does want a sex life, and that she does want a closer connection and she doesn't technically reject me. 

........ but I can see it in her eyes and her body language and the ways she stiffens up and turns away when I try to embrace that it is not something she is actually embracing. Actions vs the words. 

This is where my schizophrenia is coming from. I am being told one thing and if someone were to ask if we have had sex more than 10 times in the last year, the factual answer would be yes so we do not technically fall under the sexless marriage catagory. Is she mean? = no. Has she cheated?= no evidence of that ever occuring. Does she drink/drugs?=no
Does she contribute to the household and is a good parent?= probably better than me. Would she have sex with you today if you asked nicely?= probably. 

So I can't document any malfeasance on her part so does this all make me the azzhole? Does it make me the bad guy? 
Am I just being a whiney btch because things aren't exactly as want? 

And do things always have to be all or none? We're in our 50s and both have honest careers and are sane, sober, legal adults, do we even need to be connected at the heart and soul at all times in wedded bliss or can we each be our own beings as long as the bills are paid, the kids and pets are fed etc?

Am I just wanting too much out of a 25 year old marriage at this stage of our lives????


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> If she’s so gorgeous and you had such great sex, why were you swinging at one time?
> Just asking. Sounds like that would be enough for any man.


Some people are swinging material and the vast majority are not. It was great for us at the time. It was never a question of whether she was "enough" or not. Just because a balanced diet of lean meats, fruits and vegatables is enough to live on healthily, doesn't mean you don't enjoy an occasional banana split ;-)


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> If I remember correctly, not only were you in a sexless marriage, but your wife came right out and told you she no longer wanted a sex life.
> 
> I am in kind of the opposite situation. I am being told she does want a sex life, and that she does want a closer connection and she doesn't technically reject me.
> 
> ...


You can, I believe, be in a marriage in which sex isn't infrequent and yet the marriage is sexless. If there is no joy in giving oneself to their partner, if the partner understands this and sex happens anyways because the partner without joy in intimacy is "willing" because it's their "duty"... it's not technically sexless but it's also not what you signed up for. Woody Allen had a version of this when he scripted


> “*Sex* without love is an *empty experience*, but as *empty experiences* go, it's one of the best.”


I think looking at sexuality as a continuing empty experience is a terribly sad thing in a marriage.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> If I remember correctly, not only were you in a sexless marriage, but your wife came right out and told you she no longer wanted a sex life.
> 
> I am in kind of the opposite situation. I am being told she does want a sex life, and that she does want a closer connection and she doesn't technically reject me.
> 
> ...


We weren't in a sexless marriage... we had sex twice a month, like clockwork. Of course, I wanted more, but we were having sex, although she was doing it to keep me there - I discovered later, when she stopped the sex. 

I feel that deep down you know that it's not right. She says stuff and behaves the opposite. You made me smile when you said that with the right "manouvres" you could have had sex this morning... and that she doesn't technically reject you. I understand your situation. In your situation, I would have probably stayed, although your wife sounds like a real PITA. It's not matter of wanting too much, it's matter of being happy.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jlg07 said:


> I DO think that folks here focus on the negative aspect of the marriage -- that's why they are asking for advice, no?
> His marriage may be great -- I think the one part that is missing for oldshirt (and please correct me here if I am wrong) -- he misses the passion that his wife had for him. Their life together in general is pretty ok for Oldshirt.
> It is the lack of passion for him which REALLY shows up when they try to have sex that is so disappointing for him, especially when he compares the NOW to the past.
> 
> ...


This is right on the money. Thanks for understanding. I know that no one will have the perfect solution and that there really is no perfect solution. 

And just an FYI for everyone, we/she HAVE been to countless doctors and having been trying a wide variety of treatments and medications and hormones etc for YEARS. 

There is no cure for age. 

She does try to accommidate me the best she can. I can just tell she doesn't like it much and I don't want anyone to do what they don't want to do in order to accommidate me. Some guys would be fine with that. I unfortunately have issues with that. 

Yes I miss our old life. I miss my wife. I miss who she used to be and the life we used to have together. I miss who I used to be as well. I'm reaching the acceptance phase of the passing of who she used to be and who we used to be as a couple. But acceptance doesn't mean painless and or without hardship and one still has to have a plan for moving forward after a loss. 

I'm kind of stuck on what my next moves will be at the moment.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Why do you think she stiffens you when you give her a hug? That’s rough! It would seem to me that she’s angry with you, hates you..... what’s up with that? Have you asked her?

myself, I am pretty needy in physical affection and if my wife stiffened you and didn’t even want to snuggle up on the couch and watch a movie or talk—-not even counting the sex....... that would likely be a deal breaker for me.

what would happen if you brought her some flowers and asked if you could take her out for dinner, followed by some passionate lovemaking? You never did say why you wouldn’t do that, or what her response would be... she said she wanted to be closer. You want to be closer. What are you doing to encourage that?

if you’re back to ice fine everything possible and tired and just gonna give up and let her do her thing— then we as onlookers are again gonna ask you why you want to stay in a loveless marriage. Because it seems that way to me. She stiffens up, doesn’t plan things with you, doesn’t want sex....

you’ve been with her for 25 years and she was a great wife for a long time. At this point it’s a marriage of convenience. 
were swingers once. Clearly she doesn’t have a problem with you banging other women. Why don’t you just ask her if you can have sex with other women and get some physical affection she doesn’t ever give, if she’s not gonna be a wife to you anymore?

Brw, I have to admit that I am totally against the swinging, and since it is hard for me to grasp, I have to wonder if that didn’t cause some major resentment and negative feelings on the part of your wife that you don’t realize. But again, I realize that’s a bias in my part and I could be totally wrong.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Evinrude58 said:


> Why do you think she stiffens you when you give her a hug? That’s rough! It would seem to me that she’s angry with you, hates you..... what’s up with that? Have you asked her?


Perhaps, in her mind, she links hugs to leading to something more. I know that's how my wife's mind works. She shut down teasing and anything else that might give "hope" that there's something more behind the curtain.

The other thing you discover is that stuff from the past does matter. The present is a place where you can be doing everything right but it doesn't matter because something in the past was rotten and your partner just can't let go of it. Your partner may not even understand it. It just is. Therapy can take FOREVER if that's the case.

Edited to add: It's been brought up a couple times, and I think it bears repeating. OPs "swinging" relationship, in the past, may have affected his wife in a way it didn't affect him. He may have emerged unscathed while she might be troubled about the meaning of intimacy in marriage.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> Why? I'm an expert in unhappy marriages...  In fact, my marriage is not very dissimilar from Oldshirt's. And yes, if my wife hadn't withdrawn the sexual side from it, I might have stayed. But this is not the point...


YOU ARE STAYING. And I'm not saying you shouldn't give advice, I'm saying that you should certainly be able to empathize with someone not ready to leave a marriage that, from the outside, looks unhappy.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> YOU ARE STAYING. And I'm not saying you shouldn't give advice, I'm saying that you should certainly be able to empathize with someone not ready to leave a marriage that, from the outside, looks unhappy.


I'm staying for the moment, but that's not my long term goal. I have been in a similar situation, but mine is more extreme. In the OP's shoes, although I think his marriage is dead, I would stay put for the moment. I know he is not ready to leave.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> So I am not arguing, I am asking for your opinion.
> 
> Read my post #128 above and tell me if you think the marriage is dead, or just sick?
> 
> ...


MY opinion (and that's all it is, I'm not saying I'm right) from everything you've written here and in past posts, is that FOR YOU, your marriage is not "dead", but it's on life support without any chance of waking back up. 

Now for some people, when that happens, the slimmest hope of some cure at some point in the future to bring it back to life, or even just the shell of the marriage that once was alive and made them happy is enough to make them unwilling to pull the plug. They don't mind that they don't have a fully functioning relationship that meets their emotional and sexual needs, they don't mind the loneliness (maybe some prefer it), they are willing to spend the rest of their lives with the unresponsive marriage that is in a hospital bed hooked up to all the wires, and cannot actually be accessed as a real nourishing relationship for them.

If you are one of those people, you are doing exactly what you need to do and what will make you happy.

If you are not one of those people, then you may be making a mistake and may regret not pulling the plug sooner.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> I'm staying for the moment, but that's not my long term goal. I have been in a similar situation, but mine is more extreme. In the OP's shoes, although I think his marriage is dead, I would stay put for the moment. I know he is not ready to leave.


IA...it has NOT been for "a moment", how can you even SAY that?? A full year ago you were saying you had to stay for months until she was emotionally stable...

I only wanted to remind you that you should be more understanding of people who aren't sure if leaving is best for them. Because you were being far too harsh on him (in my opinion) considering how much unhappiness you have been willing to tolerate, so you could do what's best for your wife who has NO interest in meeting any of your needs.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I can just tell she doesn't like it much


Has she said in any detail WHY she doesn't like this anymore? Is it physical discomfort (-- coconut oil!)? Does she "dread" the act itself? Does she not want the intimacy (emotionally) with you anymore?
If the answer is "I just don't have the desire" that's kind of a cop out.
She knows that physical intimacy leads to emotional intimacy -- even if she doesn't have the drive for the physical part, why does she not want the emotional part?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> IA...it has NOT been for "a moment", how can you even SAY that?? A full year ago you were saying you had to stay for months until she was emotionally stable...
> 
> I only wanted to remind you that you should be more understanding of people who aren't sure if leaving is best for them. Because you were being far too harsh on him (in my opinion) considering how much unhappiness you have been willing to tolerate, so you could do what's best for your wife who has NO interest in meeting any of your needs.


this Covid thingy got in the way... I know, I know, another excuse. Am I being harsh? Not more than Oldshirt was with me. It's not revenge. Very often you don't see the stuff in front of you. I didn't, so I'm grateful for his input. I hope this is clear.


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## marko polo (Jan 26, 2021)

Oldshirt,

have you considered you may be married to a covert narcissist? I say this as an individual raised by a pair of narcissists. I have also been married to such a woman. There are points of interest in your posts that have me leaning in this direction. As I am just another internet stranger take what I say with a grain of salt.

_*About a half dozen + years ago had a real rocky point in our marriage. She was openly hostile and contemptuous of me, I was getting more and more fed up with the tone and contempt. Had the big blow out one weekend and I got the ILYBNILWY.*_

You and the boys are possessions. She was never in love with you the way you would identify it. She was in love with the life you could help provide her, you enhanced her appearance for any on lookers. Appearances matter, always. From your home, to your clothes, to your occupations, to how well youf boys turned out, etc.

_*She was PI$$ED but ultimately capitulated in the bottom of the 9th and came to the negotiation table for fear of losing fulltime access to kids. We had it out and both agreed to stay and try. We were cordial and polite going forward. She basically declared us cured and that things were now good.*_

It is all about who is in control. In this moment you proved her control over you, the narrative, etc, non - existent. What was her answer to this loss? Rug sweep and declare all was well again. You could describe this as a _narcissistic injury.

*When I have tried to address issues, she becomes very hostile and aggressive and counter attacks and says, "oh so here we go again huh!"*_

Narcissists do not deal in truths especially unpleasant ones. Owning up, taking responsibility for errors, admitting fault are also unwelcome experiences. When such a person is forced to address such concerns, when they have no leverage to deflect or make the issue go away - anger, hostility, counter attacks. This is compounded by narcissistic injury. Narcissists don't forget a slight real or imagined.

_*She says she doesn't want to end up alone and that we need to reconnect and get close again.*_

Narcissists do not care to be left behind or in their mind abandoned, ever. That is how they became what they are.

_*I find myself growing more angry and more resentful by the hour. I've spent literally YEARS trying to connect. Trying to address the issues only to be met with hostility and contempt and defensiveness. I've tried MC to be told that I am the problem and so I need to get help on my own. I've tried to show affection to be pushed away.*_

She doesn't know how to connect, only control. Control offers pleasure and represents safety. Intimacy, letting the wall down, showing vulnerability goes against her instinct. Weakness. Whomever told you the problem is you is a complete fool.

_*but I can see it in her eyes and her body language and the ways she stiffens up and turns away when I try to embrace that it is not something she is actually embracing. Actions vs the words.*_

Since you are able to see what you see clearly it puts you ahead of the majority that find themselves in your situation with such a person. The tried and true manipulations of old will have no effect on you. Continue to use this to your advantage.

Intimacy and sex are tools for a narcissist. They get no pleasure or closeness from the act. They like the power they have over others through its use. The intimacy you associate with sex is alien to your wife. She wouldn't know what it is if it came and bit her on the ankle. She has learned how to mimic love and other emotions. She hasn't seen any benefit to continue to do so for the last few years when she went "cold."

_*And do things always have to be all or none?*_

Maybe not for you, but for her *YES*. All or none, her way or no way.

_*We're in our 50s and both have honest careers and are sane, sober, legal adults, do we even need to be connected at the heart and soul at all times in wedded bliss or can we each be our own beings as long as the bills are paid, the kids and pets are fed etc?*_

Deep down you need to be connected. This is not a slight against you. If it didn't matter to you then you wouldn't have posted in the first place. Does your wife need to be connected? *NO*. She just wants and needs to be in control. Control = safety. You have already proven she has no hold over you. She will have zero control left to exercise in the household once your sons leave the nest. She could throw herself into hobbies or other pursuits if she thought it would meet her fuel requirement.

I can understand if you don't want to divorce. Once per life time is enough. I am unsure if you have had this "pleasure" yet, before your current wife. If not, you aren't missing anything. I would tell you however you gain nothing by waiting. 

These last few years it sounds as if you met the real woman you have been married to vs the persona she crafted to draw you into marriage. People don't change dramatically, even with menopause and medication side effects. What does this mean for you practically? Your situation will not improve going forward. The contempt, hostility, distance you have had for more than a decade will continue. Her fetish for a new home every so often, an attempted escape that has failed every time. Escape from her inner demons. Use the analogy of the wayward individual that fails to stay married or committed, always trading partners in the effort to trade up and live the perfect life. Chasing a rainbow by any other name.

I would at the bare minimum encourage you to read up on covert narcissism and see how closely it may or may not apply to your wife. If she is a good fit my recommendation to you is to move on. You will not be able to help her. She will never be content. The recommended therapy is talk therapy. Is it effective? No. Why? Because the narcissist will resist showing vulnerability of any kind. They also will not admit fault or error. They will not take much less accept any responsibility for errors made on their part. They will lay blame any where and every where else. There are also those that take pleasure in fooling the expert/therapist.

Were I you I would at the very least begin contemplating/planning my exit strategy and what the future looks like if she acts first. Her attempted manipulations will continue. There is a chance she may turn combative to get her way if she feels backed into a corner. Won't make a difference if she backs herself into the corner. She will lay the blame on you and act accordingly.

All the best going forward.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> this Covid thingy got in the way... I know, I know, another excuse. Am I being harsh? Not more than Oldshirt was with me. It's not revenge. Very often you don't see the stuff in front of you. I didn't, so I'm grateful for his input. I hope this is clear.


And I am grateful for your input. 

Dude, if you of all people are telling me I'm poking a dead horse and that I need to pull the ejection handle - That's something I need to sit up and pay heed. (honest assessment, not a poke)


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

marko polo said:


> Oldshirt,
> 
> have you considered you may be married to a covert narcissist? I say this as an individual raised by a pair of narcissists. I have also been married to such a woman. There are points of interest in your posts that have me leaning in this direction. As I am just another internet stranger take what I say with a grain of salt.
> 
> ...


Serious anxiety? = yes. 

Deep rooted insecurity and fear of failure and fear of being alone and destitute for no discernible reason? = yes. 

Deep need for control? = yes. 

Some general social avoidance tendencies? = yes. 

But narcissism?? I don't know about that. unless it is really 'covert.' 

Narcissists often have a sense of superiority and that rules for the common person doesn't apply to them and that they are above normalcy. Some have an almost delusional ego. Narcissist believe they will always land on their feet and often actually do. 

That is not her at all. I would be much more inclined to believe she has some kind of anxiety or insecurity disorder than narcissism.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Serious anxiety? = yes.
> 
> Deep rooted insecurity and fear of failure and fear of being alone and destitute for no discernible reason? = yes.
> 
> ...


You should look up covert narcissism. It's when everything revolves around them, but not in a flamboyant way. It's the way she was openly contemptuous of you. It's the way she plows ahead and plans moves, without you. It's the way she doesn't work to keep a connection to you. It's more subtle.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Agree... it's easy to talk, but when it's YOUR marriage, things all of sudden get very complicated...


I'm saying this gently, IA...the reason having the courage of your convictions seems so foreign to you is because you do not have it.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

I want to add here that MY marriage wasn't peacefully brain dead with no signs of life - it was vomiting blood and convulsing for at least 3 years, but I still couldn't admit I was seeing it the way it really was, because I had an enlarged picture of the happy marriage it used to be on the wall right above the sickbed it was in that I chose to focus on instead, so I could avoid seeing all the blood that was everywhere. It wasn't until that picture got splattered with blood and pulled off the wall that I could begin to face my reality and accept that my relationship had a sickness that would never be cured. That's when I realized that my choices were to spend the rest of my life cleaning the blood and vomit ALONE, or to walk out of that room and find something that wasn't mostly pain and ugliness and loss (for me) and stuck in a sickbed every day that I could put all my heart and love into.

And even though there was blood and vomit everywhere, that choice was still VERY HARD TO MAKE. I felt like my whole body was vibrating pain and disappointment for weeks and weeks...and I STILL feel deeply sad sometimes about losing what I thought was my happily-ever-after, that I wanted SO MUCH.

Detaching from important relationships and giving up HOPE is a process - very few people can rip that off like a band aid and walk away feeling like they are doing the right thing without a whole slew of second-guesses and disappointments behind them...and maybe that's how it's supposed to be.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> I want to add here that MY marriage wasn't peacefully brain dead with no signs of life - it was vomiting blood and convulsing for at least 3 years, but I still couldn't admit I was seeing it the way it really was, because I had an enlarged picture of the happy marriage it used to be on the wall right above the sickbed it was in that I chose to focus on instead, so I could avoid seeing all the blood that was everywhere. It wasn't until that picture got splattered with blood and pulled off the wall that I could begin to face my reality and accept that my relationship had a sickness that would never be cured. That's when I realized that my choices were to spend the rest of my life cleaning the blood and vomit ALONE, or to walk out of that room and find something that wasn't mostly pain and ugliness and loss (for me) and stuck in a sickbed every day that I could put all my heart and love into.
> 
> And even though there was blood and vomit everywhere, that choice was still VERY HARD TO MAKE. I felt like my whole body was vibrating pain and disappointment for weeks and weeks...and I STILL feel deeply sad sometimes about losing what I thought was my happily-ever-after, that I wanted SO MUCH.
> 
> Detaching from important relationships and giving up HOPE is a process - very few people can rip that off like a band aid and walk away feeling like they are doing the right thing without a whole slew of second-guesses and disappointments behind them...and maybe that's how it's supposed to be.


Very well put.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Your talking in circles like crazy.

If I was that passive aggressive and conflict avoidant my wife wouldn’t care for me much either. The only reason it might look good from the outside is due to the conflict avoidance thing. You wouldn’t be here complaining if you weren’t miserable.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> I'm saying this gently, IA...the reason having the courage of your convictions seems so foreign to you is because you do not have it.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


There is a reason for that, but it's too painful for me, so I'm not going to divulge it here. But it's a fair point seen from the outside.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> There is a reason for that, but it's too painful for me, so I'm not going to divulge it here. But it's a fair point seen from the outside.


There is very little that's given to easy, simple solutions for you, for me, or for @oldshirt. We've all got way too much history, basically been married "too long" as it were. People act as if it should be easy to just walk away from things that are so clearly not in our own best interest. But we remain, I think we is correct here, attached to our wives' welfare and no matter what they feel for us (or don't feel for us), that's them. We're not so easily divorced (so to speak) from such feelings for our spouses. Even when, to an objective observer, all parties would appear to be better off if divorced.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> There is a reason for that, but it's too painful for me, so I'm not going to divulge it here. But it's a fair point seen from the outside.


But I will add that you came a long way since you showed up on this forum. Don’t forget to count your victories 👍


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> That is where I am stuck. Is it dead or just getting old and achy and tired with age just like the rest of us?
> 
> Am I seeing signs of life that aren't really there or am I declaring something dead prematurely without enough effort to save it? That is where I say I am stuck in paralysis by analysis.


Admittedly, I haven't read all of the posts. In terms of your marital dynamic, I think only you (and her) can answer this.

It also kind of moves the responsibility off you to others in asking (yes, I know this is a forum to discuss such things, bear with me) - and additional opinions may just continue this analysis paralysis. I'm writing that to suggest this - if you're stuck it doesn't matter which way you go, so long as you do something. Essentially, it's better to make a decision than not. Typically, once a decision is made, one feels clearer and then backs the decision as it's the decision that was made. Gosh, I feel like I'm typing in an Alice in Wonderland character narrative.



oldshirt said:


> We don't fight.


I wince a little inside when I read statements like this on TAM. Not taking digs at each other is a good thing. I'm just for healthy disagreement (not 'fights'). From personal stance, in my dynamic with Batman I see disagreement as a fast and effective feedback loop of learning - about ourselves, each other, the dynamic. And we can converse quite bluntly, while trusting intentions of the other. Basically, we can still have each others backs even when we disagree; sometimes I think that's actually part of having each others back. Anyway, figured I'd get that view out there while I have a keyboard in front of me.



oldshirt said:


> Maybe this is all driving me to schizophrenia, but my bigger fear here isn't that I am wasting my life with someone that doesn't love or desire me and is just using me for comfort and to buy houses,,, but rather that I am the crazy one for not being content and wanting more out of life.
> 
> I think if you were actually here, you may think I was crazy for bi+ching about it.


There's a fair bit through-out your posts that talks about the image of your marriage. What it looks like from the outside. Maybe it's time to give less of a funk about all that.

I would be more interested in what is authentic to you on the inside. Where I wrote before about making a decision, regardless of what it is, as better than no decision and remaining stuck; well, there's school of thought about quietening your mind and thoughts. Get the murky-ego-external validation-stuff to settle and start to navigate what is authentic and real for you. I'm not suggesting it's easy. However, I think when one knows what they're about at a deeper level (bear with me), the alignment of thoughts-feelings-and actions can occur effectively.

Another thing, I have an aversion to bumper stickers and quotes on the bathroom mirror. I do not wish for the above to be taken that way, as it's not intended to be an easy (or even finished) process. It might just start with a lot of un-learning as part of taking a direction - any direction.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Mr.Married said:


> But I will add that you came a long way since you showed up on this forum. Don’t forget to count your victories 👍


Thanks... yes, I have, but my problem now is overcoming my failures. I'm finding it very difficult. The feeling of abandonment - although I contributed to the disintegration of the marriage - is immense and this is projecting me back to my unhappy childhood. By the way, this is not the issue I was talking about and it's not sexual abuse, but it does involve my childhood and adolescence. But I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'll stop talking about myself .


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> I want to add here that MY marriage wasn't peacefully brain dead with no signs of life - it was vomiting blood and convulsing for at least 3 years, but I still couldn't admit I was seeing it the way it really was, because I had an enlarged picture of the happy marriage it used to be on the wall right above the sickbed it was in that I chose to focus on instead, so I could avoid seeing all the blood that was everywhere. It wasn't until that picture got splattered with blood and pulled off the wall that I could begin to face my reality and accept that my relationship had a sickness that would never be cured. That's when I realized that my choices were to spend the rest of my life cleaning the blood and vomit ALONE, or to walk out of that room and find something that wasn't mostly pain and ugliness and loss (for me) and stuck in a sickbed every day that I could put all my heart and love into.
> 
> And even though there was blood and vomit everywhere, that choice was still VERY HARD TO MAKE. I felt like my whole body was vibrating pain and disappointment for weeks and weeks...and I STILL feel deeply sad sometimes about losing what I thought was my happily-ever-after, that I wanted SO MUCH.
> 
> Detaching from important relationships and giving up HOPE is a process - very few people can rip that off like a band aid and walk away feeling like they are doing the right thing without a whole slew of second-guesses and disappointments behind them...and maybe that's how it's supposed to be.


DAMN!!!!! HELL TO THE NO!!!


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## marko polo (Jan 26, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Serious anxiety? = yes.
> 
> Deep rooted insecurity and fear of failure and fear of being alone and destitute for no discernible reason? = yes.
> 
> ...


"_In the field of psychology, behavior can be described as overt or covert. Overt behaviors are those that can be easily observed by others, such as those of the traditional narcissist described earlier. Covert behaviors, however, are those that are more subtle and a bit less obvious to others.

A covert narcissist is someone who craves admiration and importance as well as lacks empathy toward others but can act in a different way than an overt narcissist. *When considering the behavior of narcissists, it might be hard to imagine how someone could be a narcissist and be inhibited in their approach and behavior.* A covert narcissist may be outwardly self-effacing or withdrawn in their approach, but the end goals are the same._"

*Overt vs. Covert*
_Covert narcissists are only different from overt (more obvious) narcissists in that they tend to be more introverted. The overt narcissist is easily identified because they tend to be loud, arrogant, and insensitive to the needs of others and always thirsty for compliments.

Their behaviors can be easily observed by others and tend to show up as "big" in a room. When we think of an overt narcissist, we could say they demonstrate more extroverted behaviors in their interactions with others.

Researcher and author Craig Malkin, PhD suggests that the term "covert" can be misleading. In his work he states that the term covert is often used to suggest that the covert narcissist is sneaky or that their strive for importance is not as significant as an overt (more extroverted) narcissist. In fact, he reports,* the traits of the overt narcissist and the covert narcissist are the same.

Both covert and overt narcissists navigate the world with a sense of self-importance and fantasizing about success and grandeur.
Both individuals need to meet the same clinical criteria to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, whether they are extroverted or introverted. Both have deficits in their capacity to regulate their self-esteem.

Many people have fallen victim to the manipulative behaviors of a covert narcissist without realizing what has happened until they are already in emotional pain. It might be more accurate to suggest that the extroverted (overt) narcissist would be a lot easier to see coming than the introverted (covert) narcissist.

It is not unusual for people to find themselves in long-term relationships with covert narcissists only to be hurt by a sense of a lack of partnership or reciprocity in the relationship.*_

*Signs to Look For*

How to Recognize Someone With Covert Narcissism (verywellmind.com)


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