# Plan A



## Clinging (May 14, 2011)

What I have been reading is one of the things to do in Plan A is expose the affair. First I have no proof of an affair but very high suspicions and I am sure there is one, just don't know who it is. In any event, I have been married for 31 years so I have high hopes of reconciling with this person once they come out of the fog. He is lying constantly but he did say he isn't looking which in his own twisted mind is the truth,he probably isn't looking as he has already found someone else so no need to look.

He is hiding the affair from me, he has moved out so able to carry on without me knowing, may even be living with her, I have no idea where he is and he won't tell me. He tells me not to give up on him he thinks we still have a chance, not sure what exactly that means. I am seperating our finances and assets tommorow, I sent him an email what I needed him to sign and he hasn't responded to me.

Back to Plan A question, I don't want to expose the affair to everyone, I sort of want to keep things underwrap so if we do decide to reconcile, we don't have to deal with too many other people and it will just be between him and I.

does that make sense or is that stupid? I know exposing the affair doesn't make it secret anymore but really who cares, the affair is still going on and that is the choice he has made. I don't know if this person is married, I would assume not if he has moved in with her, I don't know anything about her other than she has him captivated and supposedly more in love with her than me.

What do you think, I am going to try the no contact but it is SO hard after being married for so long. I don't have a lot of patience, it has only been a week but I also don't want to wait forever for him to figure this stuff out. Maybe the dividing of the assets will either bring him around or push him further away. that is my fear, that the more I push the more he will run and hide and the more people that are exposed to his behaviour the more shame/embarrassement he will feel so he will think it is too hard to repair what he has done.

I wish I could beleive him when he says not to give up on us and not to make anything final, that leads me to believe in some way he would like me and our family back but Ithink he feels he has done too much damage to me and I do deserve better.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

Shouldnt you find more evidence via phone and money trail before you split assets or is this your "excuse" to go through the books?

Has he ever done anything like this.before? 

Other than saying he moved and you suspect an affair what will you say and to whom?

You could go the PI route to find out who and where.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Without proof, all you have is suspicion. So you need to confirm it if you want to find out. You can't expose an affair if you don't even know if it's really happening. Has he moved in with another woman? 

Re: pushing. He's already told you he's done. So you taking a hard stance and deciding what YOU want in my opinion, is not going to push him further away. You see, he has already taken his hard stance (leaving you). Clinging and pursuing him will have an adverse effect. Ask anyone on this board. 

Imagine this: you dumped someone. They keep calling you, telling you to come back to them, they want you in their life badly, they know you don't know what you are doing or saying and you don't really mean it. It would turn you off and cement the reasons why you left in the first place. 

The solution is simple yet hard to implement: let go.

Personally I am not a fan of Plan A. Especially not when there's an affair.


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## Clinging (May 14, 2011)

He went away about a month ago for "business" to a conference out of town - ended up dragging it out for 10 days, some of it may have been legit, I really do not know. We did correspond regualrly while he was away.

Well I just found out this weekend that he is back where that conference was so I am Assuming there is an attraction there.

When he returned home from the business trip he was very unhappy and wouldn't even talk to me so I think he had already checked out of the marriage. He also was back at this place earlier last summer so that is probably when he met her and then went back there about a month ago. He may have been seeing her throughout this time as he had been going away a lot on "business trips". My husband is a good lier as he has lots of practice. Yes, he did this about 7 years ago, almost to the letter, except there I knew who the OW was but he did deny there was anyone for months until someone caught him and told me and then he couldn't deny it. the difference then and now is he wasn't self employed at that time but had to travel a lot for work so was gone a lot so had a place to stay most of the time. this time he doesn't have that luxury and needs to find somewhere for him to live and I'm starting to think it is with her.

I don't think I need actual proof, I think the writing is on the wall for me, he isn't away on business. All that is missing is I don't know who or anything about her but at this point does it really matter. He will never tell me anything as he denies she even exists.

When people ask where he is, do I tell him he is shacking up with some woman where he is or just say he is away on business? How much do I divulge. I am going to seperate our finances as I don't know what he is up too and I need to protect myself. If he is spending company money on her than I need to get out of the company. He is not spending any of our personal money yet because I would be able to trace that.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

Depends on who asks, but I would just say what you know and if you want, say you believe he has left for another woman.

Could it be the same one?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Clinging said:


> When people ask where he is, do I tell him he is shacking up with some woman where he is or just say he is away on business? How much do I divulge.


Why would you tell people he's shacking up with another woman, when in fact, you don't even know if that's true? 

If they ask, tell him he's (wherever he says he is). You don't have to go into it further if you don't want to. 

Protecting yourself financially and otherwise is a very good idea.


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## Clinging (May 14, 2011)

Jelly beans

I know what you are saying is 100% correct, my fear is I don't want him to think I don't want him as my husband is a very stubborn man and if he thinks I don't want him, then he will not contact me, he will just leave me alone.

He left on Monday, I didn't contact him all week until I found out he was where he currently is. I was pissed and started connecting the dots and I called him on it. He denied everything and say he was away on business. I don't beleive him. I asked him how he thought being apart was working on our marriage and he said I didn't want to talk to him so he didn't talk to me.

If I contact him he does respond, he doesn't ignore me completely, now I did send him a text about our finances and what he needs to sign but I haven't heard from him either. I did tell him if he was involved with someone else that he didn't need me anymore and I haven't heard back from him about that.

I have no physical proof but my gut says 100% there is someone where he is (about 10 hours away) and he sure isn't on his way home yet.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

One's gut is usually right (unfortunately). However you need to act on what you do know: that he decided to leave you and the marriage is not his priority right now. 

Fear is a useless emotion. It keeps people from doing many things. So lose the fear.

My advice is to tell him and SOON: that you took your marriage vows seriously, that you are wanting/willing to work on the marriage WITH him, since it takes a committment from both sides, but if he isn't willing to do that WITH you, then you are letting him go.

The sooner you do that, the better. 
The longer limbo lasts...the worse. Know that.

If you already reached out to him re: finances, and he didn't respond...don't contact him again. He got your message. He just chose not to respond. So start looking out for yourself.


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## Clinging (May 14, 2011)

No, this definetely is not the same woman. She has remarried and I knew her so she definetely moved on from him. No, this is someone else that has captured his attention.

My husband is very in secure, no coping skills and is always looking for his ego to be stroked. he constantly needs attention and admiration and that is what affairs provide him with. He is emotionaly illeraterate. I do hope he goes to counselling like he said he is, he wants us to go to marriage counselling once he is done his own, but we will see. I told him marriage counselling only works if there are 2 of us and not 3. He didn't respond.

I'll try and be strong but it hurts like hell, it would probably be even harder if he was still here so I guess both him & I realize that. I'm not sure what he is telling this OW about himself or his situation and she is obviously just waiting for him to committ to her which it looks like maybe he has.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

Do you want him back after cheating twice? Do you want Apple Ducklings's bio to be your own?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Clinging (May 14, 2011)

the answer right now is yes i do want him back. do I really know why, no, I don't. I understand totally he is a cheater/lier/disrespects me but I also know a very good side of him and we have managed to last 31 years together despite it.

I firmly beleive if my husband went to counselling and really tried to figure out his issues I do think he would be way better off and our marriage could succeed again. He is a troubled person and I don't feel like I should pull the plug on him quite yet.
Maybe in time I will, but for right now I feel that our issues can be resolved. I will look up Apple Dumplings saga, not sure what it is.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

You should probably go to IC and yesterday to find out why you allow this treatment. Coz if you don't, the chances are extremely high this will happen again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

^ Agreed.


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## Clinging (May 14, 2011)

Co - dependency, fear of abandonment, not wanting to be alone (which I am now anyways), always giving people the benefit of the doubt, trying to keep my family together. I came from a family that parents divorced, it totally destroyed our family, we are not close, no one talks to one another, my parents hated each other. I think that is the main reason, I am always the glue that holds the family together. 

I know looking from the outside he looks like a horrible man and person and right now what he is doing to me is exactly that but I'm just not ready to let go.

tommorrow I will be seperating our life that we have built together for the last 33 years, for me that is a touch pill to swallow.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

You can still hold your family together, just minus the guy who abandoned it.

I suspect that he doesn't look all that great from the inside, either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anonymous_Female (Apr 16, 2011)

Clinging said:


> the answer right now is yes i do want him back. do I really know why, no, I don't. I understand totally he is a cheater/lier/disrespects me but I also know a very good side of him and we have managed to last 31 years together despite it.
> 
> I firmly beleive if my husband went to counselling and really tried to figure out his issues I do think he would be way better off and our marriage could succeed again. He is a troubled person and I don't feel like I should pull the plug on him quite yet.
> Maybe in time I will, but for right now I feel that our issues can be resolved. I will look up Apple Dumplings saga, not sure what it is.



That can only be called malignant optimism, and I was *just* reading about this very thing in regards to my own relationship.


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## Clinging (May 14, 2011)

AF

Can you explain what you mean? "maligant optimisim?


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## Anonymous_Female (Apr 16, 2011)

It's a term used by Sam Vankin to describe those suffering from narcissistic abuse. (Not saying your husband is a narcissist, but your outlook seems the same as what is described.)

"an outlook based on unrealistic hopes and dreams of a better life, changing the abuser, and you the victim, learning to be a better person. These are indeed useless acts. You will not change the abuser."

A google search will bring up more info as well.


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## Anonymous_Female (Apr 16, 2011)

The Malignant Optimism Of The Abused

I often come across sad examples of the powers of self-delusion that the narcissist provokes in his victims. It is what I call "malignant optimism". People refuse to believe that some questions are unsolvable, some diseases incurable, some disasters inevitable. They see a sign of hope in every fluctuation. They read meaning and patterns into every random occurrence, utterance, or slip. They are deceived by their own pressing need to believe in the ultimate victory of good over evil, health over sickness, order over disorder. Life appears otherwise so meaningless, so unjust and so arbitrary…

So, they impose upon it a design, progress, aims, and paths. This is magical thinking.

"If only he tried hard enough", "If he only really wanted to heal", "If only we found the right therapy", "If only his defences were down", "There MUST be something good and worthy under the hideous facade", "NO ONE can be that evil and destructive", "He must have meant it differently" "God, or a higher being, or the spirit, or the soul is the solution and the answer to our prayers".

The Pollyanna defences of the abused are aimed against the emerging and horrible understanding that humans are specks of dust in a totally indifferent universe, the playthings of evil and sadistic forces, of which the narcissist is one – as well as against the unbearable realization that their pain means nothing to anyone but themselves. Nothing whatsoever. It has all been in vain.

The narcissist holds such thinking in barely undisguised contempt. To him, it is a sign of weakness, the scent of prey, a gaping vulnerability. He uses and abuses this human need for order, good, and meaning – as he uses and abuses all other human needs. Gullibility, selective blindness, malignant optimism – these are the weapons of the beast. And the abused are hard at work to provide it with its arsenal.

By: Sam Vaknin

from The Malignant Optimism Of The Abused


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## Clinging (May 14, 2011)

very interesting. I do think my husband has narcissitic charateristics.


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## Anonymous_Female (Apr 16, 2011)

Clinging said:


> very interesting.* I do think my husband has narcissitic charateristics.*


I think all adulterers do, to an extent--they have to in order to carry out this behavior.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Anonymous_Female said:


> It's a term used by Sam Vankin to describe those suffering from narcissistic abuse. (Not saying your husband is a narcissist, but your outlook seems the same as what is described.)
> 
> "an outlook based on unrealistic hopes and dreams of a better life, changing the abuser, and you the victim, learning to be a better person. These are indeed useless acts. You will not change the abuser."
> 
> A google search will bring up more info as well.


This is so true. I spent so many years covering for my husband. When I first suspected my husband's affairs back in 2006, I was both in denial and embarrassed. I didn't want people to find out about the affairs. I thought it would ruin our business and I didn't want people gossiping. After, two years of counseling I learned so much about the control the narcissist husband had over me. Unreal what I tolerated! Now I see what I should have done. I should have told others of the affairs. Had I done so in 2006 I honestly think my marriage would have stood a chance.


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## Clinging (May 14, 2011)

Why do you say that? I am the same, I don't want to expose (I don't even know for sure) about an affair in hopes we can work it out.

Is your husband still with his affair partner? What kind of affair was it? Did he move out and not give her up? Tell me a bit more about your story, I am trying to figure out what I should do next. I am researching divorce lawyers at the moment but that is really not what I want to do.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Clinging said:


> Why do you say that? I am the same, I don't want to expose (I don't even know for sure) about an affair in hopes we can work it out.
> 
> Is your husband still with his affair partner? What kind of affair was it? Did he move out and not give her up? Tell me a bit more about your story, I am trying to figure out what I should do next. I am researching divorce lawyers at the moment but that is really not what I want to do.


You may want to go back and read some of my early posts (from 2008 and 2009). You will see many similarities. I could never get concrete proof of his affairs until four months after he moved out. Hindsight is 20/20, so now I tell people where I went wrong. I lost a business, a family, my health, the ability to earn a living, and my dignity. Most of those things could have been saved had I been proactive when the bad behavior began.

My narcissist husband is what they call a "Peter Pan". They are narcissists that want to forever be 19. Among other things they are immature and irresponsible. So, in 2006 my husband began partying and seeing very young women. He was also being "Sugar Daddy"--and taking very large sums of money out of our business to fund his activities. It wasn't just one woman; it was a bunch of them and "swinging" was also involved.

Initially I tried to be nice hoping he would "snap" out of the phase. Some people close to me felt that was the way to go. Wrong! The more I tolerated, the more he took. I should have hired the PI in 2006, hired a lawyer, and disclosed all of the dirty laundry to everyone who my husband respected then. I covered up everything until my ship was sinking in July 2009. Then I had no choice but to disclose to many people--like the bank and creditors who weren't being paid. These things don't improve on their on.


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## 52flower (Mar 4, 2011)

Clinging, our situation sounds very similar to my story. My exH told amazing lies so that he could get his ego fed while staying married to me. He still does. He also told me we still have a chance and that he loved me. He still does. I finally realized he didn't respect me and his intention will always be to love himself first. He manipulated & played games one me. He was charming, attentive, and sweet but could quickly turn into a big controlling bully (usually when she was around). It took a lot of energy to be with him.

Just like you, I was a giver, a fixer, and an enabler. I was not very strong in character and this helped perpetuate and add to an emotionally abusive relationship. My exH had an affair in 2006. It took everything out of me-I was a wreck emotionally & physically. I told him I could & would not tolerate another "mistake". He sought another woman in 2009. After the first affair, we went to MC together. He was there in body but wasn't sold on learning & improving. 

As hard as it is, listen to what people are advising you. I believe that if I heard from them 5 years ago, I wouldn't have gone through as much hurt as I did. He is still with the OW. As much as I tried to encourage him, he has not changed. I finally understand there is little chance that he will. Yet, I think I still love him or maybe I love the security & familiarity we had. I know you love him but it doesn't sound like he treats you very well and I don't know if he will change, just like mine didn't. As JellyBeans offered, don't let it drag on. I did and it caused more pain. You have to start moving or it will be a long road of hurt & cruel pain.

Just an aside, I keep reading about Plan A and B. I haven't been a member for long. Could someone point me in the right direction to read & understand these? Thanks


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Clinging said:


> I don't want to expose the affair to everyone, I sort of want to keep things underwrap so if we do decide to reconcile, we don't have to deal with too many other people and it will just be between him and I.


Then what happens?

He has NO consequences, he suffers NO shame, and he just slips back into your home with no one the wiser.

So now he knows how EASY it will be to pick up the next OW.

After all, you did nothing but wait for him and welcome him back.

Is that the marriage you want?

Your marriage will not survive until he experiences true humility and remorse. Without exposure, that will not happen.

Just so you know, exposure doesn't mean taking out a magazine ad. It means picking his ONE most important person - mother, father, best friend, brother, priest, etc. - and telling that ONE person, asking for their support of your marriage (not you, but your marriage), and asking them to talk to him.

If that doesn't shake him out of it, you then go to his KEY important people and expose. These people are almost always within his family, so there's no issue about him having to go around the neighborhood wearing a Scarlet Letter.

And you have to understand what exposure is. You seem to think it's vindictive. It's not. It's YOU saving your HUSBAND from his destructive crazy alien self who is addicted to the PEA chemicals his affair is pushing through his body.


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