# The decline into resentment and unhappiness with a prude wife



## theniceguy

I have been married almost 5 years and have been in a steady decline into resentment and unhappiness since day 1. Here are a few of my issues:
1. Won't try anything new in bed. Missionary only, I have to beg for oral (usually she uses it as a reward for a good deed). Forget anything kinky or fun. I want to experiment a bit, the most taboo thing being anal. Anytime i bring it up I pretty much get threatened with divorce. She is very uptight unless drunk.
2. She doesn't shave, trims a few times a year(maybe). Tried being nice, assertive, and even mean a few times to no avail. The big hairy mit is a huge turn off for me, but she does not seem to care, always says that she gets razor rash, but won't try any different techniques.
3. No lingerie. She wore an old hand me down once and had the sideburns sticking out. She could read my disdain even though I tried to hide it (I was just happy she tried something new). Now nothing. I bought a few things for her, but she refuses to wear them.
4. She complains about almost everything. I try to listen to all her concerns but when I hear them repeatedly and constantly it all sounds the same. Seems like nothing can make her happy.

I find myself bitter and resentful towards her without even knowing it. There are times the sound of her voice makes me feel angry and apprehensive. I am a pretty happy easy going person, but my personality has changed to one that is stressed, angry, resentful and uncaring. I have tried talking to her about all of these issues without any success. She says she wants to know my feelings but when I let it out the walls go up, and it somehow gets twisted into being my fault, and if it is sexual in nature I am a deviant and should be ashamed for wanting these terrible things. The opportunity for endless infidelity is definitely available, but that would really only offer relief in the short term for me, not to mention that I do love my wife and want to spend my life with her. The devastation it would cause my family would be irrepairable, and even though I am tempted I will not.
That being said I know I cannot live my life and be happy without fixing the 4 major issues I have outlined above. I feel I am a good husband. I provide a nice home, vehicle, all the free time she wants once I am home from work, emotional support, housework, parenting, etc. The only thing she says she wants improvement in is my grouchiness. I really don't want to hand out "Ultimatums", but like I said I will not be happy without fixing the 4 issues. Oh, and she is kind of lazy sometimes, but I can handle that. We have 2 young children and some days it's all either of us can do to just keep them happy, let alone clean house, laundry, cooking etc. Please help with some suggestions or advice before I do anything stupid!


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## Bad News

No wonder your grouchy! But what was your sex life like before you married? And what are your wifes major complaints? Are you happy w/ the frequency just not the level of kink/variety?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

NiceGuy,

Many here have walked in your shoes.

Here's a link to share their experience -and solutions.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

I would recommend reading all the links therein.

If you want to get into this, we're in the Men's Clubhouse.


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## breathe

I feel your pain, my other half's attitude toward our relationship made me irritated & angry at times. The man up link could provide some helpful tips for you, but there is a chance she is just a prude wife who refuses to work on the relationship.


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## MarriedWifeInLove

I feel sorry for you.

Nothing worse than not getting intimacy and love from the person you care about the most - makes you grouchy, angry, resentful, all of the above.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of us (male and female) who are in your shoes and know how you feel, that doesn't make it easier, but you are definitely not alone.

Conrad is right, being a man, read up on the tips and references in the Men's Clubhouse, they can help you. 

I'm starting to learn that sometimes...love just isn't enough. It takes two to make a marriage work and if only one is working on it, then it may be doomed to fail in the long-run.

Sad, but true. Sometimes those we love don't love us back in the same way.


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## MsLady

If you could get over #2 and #4, it would focus down your list. Honestly, a woman can be an absolute vixen in bed and open-minded without necessarily enjoying wearing lingerie (birthday suit is always good) and without having to shave. A bare ***** is a very modern expectation of men. You boys have lots of messy, funky bodily things going on and women generally don't ask for anything more than "be clean." However, men folk have often spent too much time watching closeups of porno ***** and have unrealistic or just annoying expectations. I might add that I never shaved mine until about a year or so ago and have learned to like it. But I would never had done it for someone else. It's work and maintenance and there ARE pluses to having a thick bush (for a woman) that can be hard to give up. If you love her, body hair should not be, IMO, on a list of things you just can't live with. Seems lame to me and, well, didn't you take a peek at it ahead of time? That's the one you chose, but now you HAVE to have it shaved?

You married a prude man. Surely you knew this in advance as well. I understand expecting things to change with time ... but now you've learned the lesson the hard way like the rest of us ... you're stuck married to the person you married, not the person you thought they'd become.



> and it somehow gets twisted into being my fault


I'm curious what her complaints are about you. That could provide a clue as to the two-sides of the problem. Or is it just her view that you asking for more variety is "perverted." I think it's reasonable to expect to enjoy a rich sexual life. I don't think you should push one particular thing (i.e., anal) as something you just can't live without (unless you cant, in which case, you need a new woman). However, to ask that she open up to more playful love-making is totally reasonable. Why not recommend she come with you to a sex therapist?

P.S. have you made it your life's mission to make sure she orgasms when you do have sex? That is KEY in getting a woman to be more pro-sex. Unsatisfactory sex never inspired a woman to want more of it. And I know that, if she's not pleased (orgasming), it's not necessarily your fault if she's not relaxing and helping ... however, it's important that she gets to (or is taken to) a place where sex FEELS really good. It's the only way she'll become more invested in it (and more eager to reciprocate).


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## CH

I never got the idea of lingerie, it's coming off anyways. I don't need more things on, I need them all off.

As to sex in missionary position only....

How often do you have sex? Is she passionate or a dead fish during sex?

If you say you're both having sex at least 5-7 times a week and the sex is very passionate alot of us here would like to come over and beat you over the head if that's the case. Upset cuz you only can have sex 7 times a week only in missionary position.......

If you say, sex like once a month and she just lays there or keeps asking if you're done yet then it might be time to sit down and have a heart to heart. Stop with the whining and begging and pleading.

Sit down and tell her this is what I want and this is what I need, we either work it out or else....

As to just doing only in missionary, my wife used to be like that. Eventually when we were going at it hot and heavy I would just lay right down on her, put my arms around her, throwing out the kisses and still inside of her. In one quick motion I would roll over while still holding her and you know what, not once did she stop to say let's get back into missionary. Only If I wanted to start with her on top did she almost always say, NO.

At 1st I had to still do all the work, even with her on top. But eventually she got used to it and rode that pony until it broke down from exhaustion many a times. Sigh, I still remember waking up in the middle of the night with the wife on top riding me. Those nights aren't coming back anytime soon though lol.

I know we all want the porn star that will suck a basketball through a garden hose and ride us to hell and back during sex but most of the time that's not gonna happen. Roll with what you have and just slowly work new things into bed over time.

It took my wife 1 year into our relationship to try other positions (funny thing is, recently when I was cleaning out our closet I found a copy of sexual positions stuffed in one of her old college bags), 2 years to do oral on me, 8 years to introduce toys into the bedroom and 10 years to let me do oral on her.

Now I get sex at least once a week and just missionary only 80% of the time but I feel like a kid in a candystore with a crisp $100 bill.


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## lost soul

Get some good hair clippers use the smallest clip it comes with (don't try it with out a plastic clip) Give hear a good massage and tell hear you want to trim it for her. Do Not mess up your only gonna get one chance. Then have her shower and after give her oral into she orgasms. If all goes right you'll get oral back. 

PS forget about anal


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## theniceguy

Thanks for the responses, I will definitely be looking into the "Man-Up" section. Here are my responses:

Bad News - Prior to marriage it was better and more frequent, but the decline started around the time I put an engagement ring on her finger.

Ms Lady - The reasons for long and glorious pubic hair are from millions of years of evolution - before people bathed, lived inside from the elements, etc. Aside from the clean stealthy look of being shaved, it feels much better to a man when there is nothing getting in the way, especially when going down on her. It ain't the 70's, and it wasn't the 70's until around the time we got married. her main complaint is my grouchiness, and that I don't talk about my feelings enough. Oh, and yes I am a deviant for wanting these terrible things. As for the sex therapist thing i don't really want it to come down to that, but I fear that is a path we are headed.

Cheating Hubby - she lays there like a corpse prob 8 times out of 10. the other 2 times she's drunk and gets into it more so. Frequency is about once every week to 2 weeks.(I would like it at least 3-4 times a week). As for the mid roll over timing, she totally stops that, and gets "scared and anxious". I don't want no porn star, just want a wife that will pretend to be one once in awhile lol! Sometimes I wonder if she had a bad boyfriend in the past or something. I am pretty sure she has undiagnosed anxiety issues.

Lost Soul - Tried tried and tried. No go. Anal is like the forbidden fruit, the more I get told no the more I want it lol!


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## 2sick

QUOTE=theniceguy;249487]Thanks for the responses, I will definitely be looking into the "Man-Up" section. Here are my responses:

Bad News - Prior to marriage it was better and more frequent, but the decline started around the time I put an engagement ring on her finger.

Ms Lady - The reasons for long and glorious pubic hair are from millions of years of evolution - before people bathed, lived inside from the elements, etc. Aside from the clean stealthy look of being shaved, it feels much better to a man when there is nothing getting in the way, especially when going down on her. It ain't the 70's, and it wasn't the 70's until around the time we got married. her main complaint is my grouchiness, and that I don't talk about my feelings enough. Oh, and yes I am a deviant for wanting these terrible things. As for the sex therapist thing i don't really want it to come down to that, but I fear that is a path we are headed.

Cheating Hubby - she lays there like a corpse prob 8 times out of 10. the other 2 times she's drunk and gets into it more so. Frequency is about once every week to 2 weeks.(I would like it at least 3-4 times a week). As for the mid roll over timing, she totally stops that, and gets "scared and anxious". I don't want no porn star, just want a wife that will pretend to be one once in awhile lol! Sometimes I wonder if she had a bad boyfriend in the past or something. I am pretty sure she has undiagnosed anxiety issues.

Lost Soul - Tried tried and tried. No go. Anal is like the forbidden fruit, the more I get told no the more I want it lol![/QUOTE]
Tng: I am confused? You have 2 young kids and you also said that it sometimes takes all you have to just make them happy. Hate to bust your bubble but SHE'S FREAK'N TIRED!!!! I can tell you that shaving is the LAST thing on her mind! Two young children are enough to drive you crazy never the less drive you from wanting to have sex. Instead of you leaving her for two weeks try and leave the kids with someone for a couple of days, get her drunk (sounds like it's her uninhibitor) and enjoy her. I bet you will be surprised that the 2 of 10 times will definitely increase. 

Do you help with the kids? Take it from experience THEY DRAIN you...and continue to do so until they are old enough to understand sex and to leave mommy and daddy alone!


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## theniceguy

I go to work during the day, then come home, make dinner, tidy the house, play with/tend the children. I go out snowmobiling in the winter once every 2nd weekend for 4-6 hours(my "me" time). Since the oldest was born I have only been away once overnight, and that was to purchase a vehicle out of town. Other hobbies have been more or less foregone for the time being to concentrate on family. Parenting is viewed in our home as an equal partnership, and I also encourage her to spend time with her hobbies/friends, which she does. I take the kids out a couple nights a week grocery shopping, playdates, etc to try to give her some recovery/relaxation time. 
Well, we will be tired for years, I know that 3x a day mad teenager sex ain't happening, but this decline all started prior to children, around the time we got engaged. Also, when she goes out for a bar night she has time and energy to spend 3 hours getting ready to be a hottie out on the town, but can't spend 10-20 minutes grooming/being sexy for me.
Leaving the kids for a couple days would be a tough one right now, maybe a year or so down the road it would be a great idea. Also, I don't want to have to ply her with liquor to bring out her repressed kink. Feels like I am taking advantage, although I do take what I can get when I can lol!


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## lost soul

theniceguy said:


> Thanks for the responses, I will definitely be looking into the "Man-Up" section. Here are my responses:
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if she had a bad boyfriend in the past or something. I am pretty sure she has undiagnosed anxiety issues.
> 
> Lost Soul - Tried tried and tried. No go. Anal is like the forbidden fruit, the more I get told no the more I want it lol!


There you go ,,,,, maybe something happened to her as a child.


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## theniceguy

Also I should add she used to orgasm fairly regular, but over the past year or two they are infrequent no matter the mood, technique etc, unless drunk of course, then there can be multiples, etc. I think she needs to relax a little, but she refuses to work on the issues.


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## 2sick

theniceguy said:


> I go to work during the day, then come home, make dinner, tidy the house, play with/tend the children. I go out snowmobiling in the winter once every 2nd weekend for 4-6 hours(my "me" time). Since the oldest was born I have only been away once overnight, and that was to purchase a vehicle out of town. Other hobbies have been more or less foregone for the time being to concentrate on family. Parenting is viewed in our home as an equal partnership, and I also encourage her to spend time with her hobbies/friends, which she does. I take the kids out a couple nights a week grocery shopping, playdates, etc to try to give her some recovery/relaxation time.
> Well, we will be tired for years, I know that 3x a day mad teenager sex ain't happening, but this decline all started prior to children, around the time we got engaged. Also, when she goes out for a bar night she has time and energy to spend 3 hours getting ready to be a hottie out on the town, but can't spend 10-20 minutes grooming/being sexy for me.
> Leaving the kids for a couple days would be a tough one right now, maybe a year or so down the road it would be a great idea. Also, I don't want to have to ply her with liquor to bring out her repressed kink. Feels like I am taking advantage, although I do take what I can get when I can lol!


HMMM...You ARE the nice guy!!! It's great that you take such good care of your kids and even her in spite of the situation. I don't know what else to say except maybe she has a hormone imbalance ? Not sure how she can be a hottie when she's out and a nottie for for?!?!?!? :scratchhead: I guess just try and sit her down and have a heart to heart?!? Good luck!


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## russ101

I don't know that I have any advice for you. But I do know how you feel. My wife went from wanting to have sex 10-12 times per month (passionate sex, with lots of oral, kissing, different positoins etc) 6 years ago, to a steady decline to what it is now. Sex once or twice a month (could have it more, but she would complain to no end) and it is definitley dead fish sex, no kissing (she told me she doesn't want to kiss any more about 5 years ago), no foreplay, no oral. She doesn't even take all her clothes off. Oh yeah, and it has to be completely dark. She just lays there with her head turned, and waits until I am done. She is 45 and just recently went through menopause, and she has no desire at all for sex anymore. 

So because it is not important to her, then she doesn't care if it is important to me. She justifies it by saying, well I'm not denying you sex, so stop complaining. We'll after the last time we had sex (early December), I decided that I didn't want to have sex like that anymore, so I will wait until she asks me for it, and guess what? I'm still waiting. If something doesn't change soon, I'm thinking of asking her for an open relationship, or divorce (lot to think about there). To be honest, I don't think she would even care if I had sex with someone else now, just as long as she didn't know about it. It would take all the pressure off of her. Just know that I feel your pain!


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## greenpearl

Is it possible to get your wife sign up on this forum and let her see how other women enjoy sex and life?


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## theniceguy

She got a little more adventerous the other day, nothing too crazy, but more than missionary. I told her what to do and she did it.


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## tpb72

I would really totally give up on the anal idea. Although it is becoming more and more popular, really it is the minority of women that are into it. If you're having difficulty getting anything other than missionary out of her I'm going to guess anal is totally a pipe dream.

If this is one of your absolute conditions, I would think you should start preparing yourself to be divorced.


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## Runs like Dog

I'm about 95% sure my wife doesn't consider me to be a human being let alone a man or a husband. And I really don't mean that in a catty way. I mean literally like she does not understand on an emotional level that other people exist, or matter. Sex? Pullleeeze. No sex. No means no. Or just lashing out in a meltdown means no. Pretty much everything means no. All I can suggest is that from my experience, there is no hope. She won't change. So either learn to live with it or move on. The first few years of complete celibacy are the hardest but you may come to realize like I have that in a weird way it's liberating. It no longer matters. It's like no longer resenting the fact that I can't fly or walk through walls. It's never going to happen, so there's no point in obsessing about it. And now I no longer have to worry about figuring out a scam to get it.


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## unbelievable

Why do you want to make love to your wife? Sounds like a stupid question but if you approach it as some sort of competition or circus performance, that might explain your frustration (and her's). I enjoy being close to my wife and I really love anything sexual or intimate we're able to do. I couldn't enjoy anything that I knew was painful or traumatic for her. I believe if you approached it as an opportunity to primarily give pleasure to her, sooner or later she's going to respond by trying to give you more of what you want. There are millions of guys not getting any form of sex for months, sometimes years on end. Yours may not be an acrobat or a porno star, but she's making love to her husband and that aint a bad deal.


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## CH

unbelievable said:


> There are millions of guys not getting any form of sex for months, sometimes years on end. Yours may not be an acrobat or a porno star, but she's making love to her husband and that aint a bad deal.


If she's just laying there like a dead fish, that isn't sex. That's a blow up doll sex toy. If your wife just laid there and hardly moved at all, I'm pretty sure after 2 or 3 sessions you would probably just stop trying to have sex all together. I know I would.

I would rather rub one out than have the wife lay there in a comatose state waiting for me to finish.


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## sisters359

Quite often the issue is, she doesn't want to have sex with you. If she changed, chances are she is resentful about something totally unrelated to sex and it has killed her desire for you. You are on dangerous ground, b/c having sex with someone she does not feel desire toward will lead to her feeling used and she may well dread your touch, so things will go from bad to worse. 

I urge you to get marriage counseling soon. There is something that is keeping her from wanting to share her body with you. Find out what it is. May be manning up will help, but if her resentment is far enough along, she will be relieved that you are withdrawing and she will not respond as you hope. If it works, great, but be prepared for the opposite.


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## bluesky

> 1. Won't try anything new in bed. Missionary only, I have to beg for oral (usually she uses it as a reward for a good deed). Forget anything kinky or fun. I want to experiment a bit, the most taboo thing being anal. Anytime i bring it up I pretty much get threatened with divorce. She is very uptight unless drunk.
> 2. She doesn't shave, trims a few times a year(maybe). Tried being nice, assertive, and even mean a few times to no avail. The big hairy mit is a huge turn off for me, but she does not seem to care, always says that she gets razor rash, but won't try any different techniques.
> 3. No lingerie. She wore an old hand me down once and had the sideburns sticking out. She could read my disdain even though I tried to hide it (I was just happy she tried something new). Now nothing. I bought a few things for her, but she refuses to wear them.
> 4. She complains about almost everything. I try to listen to all her concerns but when I hear them repeatedly and constantly it all sounds the same. Seems like nothing can make her happy.


Actually, you are doing better than many.


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## Trooper

Sisters359 hit the nail on the head - she does not want to have sex with you. I have been her in the past. She probably is a totally different person when she is with someone she wants to have sex with. I was getting nothing but verbal and emotional abuse from my husband (who was also a good provider, did things for me, etc., but was still abusive also) and he was very controlling of me. Any time I brought up anything bad about him he ranted and raved and began the name calling, etc. so I just clammed up completely. But whenever he wanted sex I began to find it was a huge chore, it actually got to where it repulsed me to even be naked with him. I went from probably one of the wildest most uninhibited persons in the bedroom to someone who laid there like a dead fish once a week (I had to do it at least once a week or else all hell broke lose). He told me he felt like he had to beg for sex from me and you know what - that made me feel good. It was the only weapon I had to get back at him so I used it. 

If your wife was more into sex prior to the engagement, something about your behavior may have also changed. I know sex does decrease as people are together longer, but the behavior you are describing seems to indicate there is a lot more going on. 

The other think you mention is the drinking. I also found that the only time I could have sex was when I was drunk I was so repulsed by him. I would actually plan to get drunk and have sex and get it over with for the week. 

I think you need to find out why she doesn't desire you and I would bet there is a lot more going on with her than you realize. 

One thing that would definitely change my attitude is if my husband started telling me he wanted anal and I didn't want to do it but he kept insisting. NO ONE should be made to do something they are not comfortable with. Even the shaving - do you shave? Do you think she likes getting hair stuck in her teeth? She may have started feeling like she is supposed to service you and it may now be a huge turn off for her. If my husband kept insisting I do things he knew I didn't want to I would become very resentful. Try putting yourself in her shoes. What if she insisted you do something you didn't want to do and wouldn't stop bringing it up? You would probably start feeling inadequate and resentful and the whole sexual experience would begin to be very unpleasant. 

If you have stated your demands to her as you did in your post, then I am actually not surprised at all by the way she is acting.


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## theniceguy

Good point on her resenting me. Perhaps I have changed in that I am at times more irritable, mainly due to my own resentment issues because she is soo unadventurous, etc. Been working on that though, the last several months I have kept my irritability under control. I assure you that I am not abusive in any way. My firecracker wife would kick me to the curb in a heartbeat. Also, when my wife asks me to try something I am uncomfortable with, sexual or not I will usually give it a try because I want her to be happy, and if stepping outside my comfort zone once in awhile makes her happy, I do that for her. I don't shave it down to the wood usually, but I keep it closely trimmed at all times. I do not bring up the anal thing or other things all the time, but I do throw the ideas out there every few months or so.
I had a relationship with an even more prudish self proclaimed feminist prior to meeting my wife. Once I realized the way our future was going, with no compromise on her part I got out immediately. Once I began dating my future wife the ex offered up everything I wanted and more. I turned her down of course, knowing that the new GF was the real deal for me. Now the ex has married a man who essentially just a puppet under her control with no balls of his own. Poor guy is just happy he finally got laid. Enough of my ranting, what I really want to say is:
Marriage will not be successful without compromise and equality. I compromise whenever called upon, why shouldn't she compromise for me? It should also be a lifelong journey with all sorts of new experiences together, not just coasting in the missionary lol!


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## Runs like Dog

As I have said before my wifey turned off the love machine in the last century. I suppose if I no longer had so much as shred of self respect I could beg and whine for 2 straight weeks and she'd relent for 10 minutes of wham bam get the hell off me now. But that just turns the whole thing into a miserable miserable job. Not worth it. And there'd be hell to pay afterwards anyway, e.g. "After what I did for you?????" 

For the record prudes are Calvinist moralizers in EVERY dimension. Mine is. Everyone is evil, immoral, unethical and criminal according to her. Everything everyone everywhere is rotten and going to hell or something like that. Everyone belongs in jail. Everyone is bad. Sex? Dear god I expect to see the ghost of Cotton Mather come down and scream about the sins of the flesh.


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## Trooper

I agree compromise is necessary and if you are doing that then she should also. I agree she should try to be more adventurous, but don't agree that she should feel obligated to do certain acts she absolutely does not want to do. That being said, would she do other things? Have you talked about maybe using massage oils, different positions, etc.? Would she be open to some things not quite as drastic as some of your desires?


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## theniceguy

Update: I wiped out on my snowmobile for the first time ever recently and injured myself. Will be back to 100% in another 4 weeks or so. She has stated quite adamantly that I give it up or she will leave me. The wipeout was due to a mechanical failure, not rider error. I see her point, it can be a dangerous hobby, but I have been riding for 18 years with never a problem until now. This is my only winter hobby, and I don't want to quit, I actually want to get the entire family involved once the kids are a little older! Also don't want a failed marriage over a toy, although up until this point I always thought that our marriage was stronger than it now seems to be if she is threatening to leave over this. Opinions?


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## tpb72

I have no comments regarding your last post but one previous I have some questions about.



> Also, when my wife asks me to try something I am uncomfortable with, sexual or not I will usually give it a try because I want her to be happy, and if stepping outside my comfort zone once in awhile makes her happy, I do that for her.


I am guessing this scenario never happened. Your prude wife probably has never asked you to try anything sexual that made you uncomfortable.

To give you some perspective on how she may see your requests, if she wanted you to try a threesome with another man and wanted you to pitch and/or receive with this man would you be willing to try to keep her happy?


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## Hicks

Here's my opinion. She is willing to say she will leave you over riding a snowmobile, but you are not willing to say you will leave her over sex. You are worried about the devastation it will cause if you ever decide to man up and speak your mind. She has no such worry. What does this say about who's agenda is in control in your marriage? This is the root of the sex problem.


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## theniceguy

tbp72 - you are right, the outside my sexual comfort zone has yet to happen with her. And like I said i would be willing to step out of the zone and try it if that would make her happy, although to do what you suggest I would probably need to have all my nasty demands met as well and then some lol.

Hicks - I agree completely. I actually told her that if our marriage meant that little to her she should leave, get her own place and give our future some deep thought.
She is in control, and I am working to change that. Her strong will and abrasiveness is part of what attracted me to her, allthough it does have a few downsides as well.


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## Hicks

What was her response?


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## SaffronPower

Have you thought of taking her to a doctor and getting her help for the anxiety issue? Mental illness is common and many things are easily fixed or helped with some medication.


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## Catherine602

theniceguy said:


> Update: I wiped out on my snowmobile for the first time ever recently and injured myself. Will be back to 100% in another 4 weeks or so. She has stated quite adamantly that I give it up or she will leave me. The wipeout was due to a mechanical failure, not rider error. I see her point, it can be a dangerous hobby, but I have been riding for 18 years with never a problem until now. This is my only winter hobby, and I don't want to quit, I actually want to get the entire family involved once the kids are a little older! Also don't want a failed marriage over a toy, although up until this point I always thought that our marriage was stronger than it now seems to be if she is threatening to leave over this. Opinions?


 I am so sorry you were injured. Any broken bones, no residual effects expected?

Did she show any concern besides the ultimatum? Did she seem concerned that she might lose you as a beloved husband. 

If she showed no tenderness and care before she gave thereat, it may be an indication that she does not respect you, and she is sure you will not leave her no matter what she does.

You have a lot of work to do to regain your position in the home. The treats to leave are over the top, if you called her bluff, I wonder what she would do. Have you started reading the Man up stuff, when are you going to start the work you need to do. 

I think a good time is now. The statement and attitude over your injury is a good time to sit her down and inform her of your boundaries and take issue with her attitude.

Snow mobile ridding is a relatively low risk hobby if done safely. I think stand a bigger chance of injury snow boarding. you might want to continue I you like it I doubt she will leave. Depends on how you do it. I am certain that the men here will be happy to guide you. You can PM MEM, Conrad, Deejo let them know that you need guidance.

Be well.


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## MEM2020

*Strong willed - LMAO - got plenty of that going over here*

TNG,
Let me start with this. There is nothing more appealing than an assertive/aggressive/happy woman. My W is a 50/50 blend of assertive/aggressive. She can also be abrasive - which is sometimes amusing and sometimes NOT. The thing I figured out is that when I am proactive, and upbeat and assertive with her - she LOVES that. When I am passive - allow her to misbehave she does NOT like that. 

If it were me, I would not discuss the snowmobiling with her any further. I would simply keep doing it without discussion. Any W who bails on you over an activity you love, when your accident rate is once in 18 years AND it was an equipment malfunction, does not value the marriage. 

I know this sounds like "opposite day", but when my W slips from "sane" aggressive to dysfunctional aggressive I tell her that she wouldn't respect me if I tolerated that behavior, and since respect is the entire foundation of a healthy marriage.....

My guess is that if you start paying close attention to how your W interacts with you, what you'll discover MANY cases where she is doing/saying things to you that if you did them to HER, she would get upset/rip your head off. 

You need to learn to either:
- Respond with pointed humor and/or
- Learn how to convey that her behavior is out of line. Lots of little magic phrases floating around to do that. 

Hey "In an annoyed tone of voice" - followed by silence and a look of confused dismay (this is the - why are you talking to the most important person in the world to you that way)

Why would you think I would be ok with THAT?

Would you be ok if I did that (spoke to you) that way?

You would NOT be ok if I spoke to you like that

NO - followed by unbroken eye contact

And of course the most powerful of all phrase, which should not be overused: "THAT is not acceptable behavior". 

Just remember that you need to be calm - and firm in all this. AND you need to be right. Meaning if she smacks you hard verbally because you forgot to do something you committed to - you nod and go take care of it. Fix those things you repeatedly do that bother HER. And only do the stuff above when you are innocent and she is roughing you up for no good reason. 




theniceguy said:


> tbp72 - you are right, the outside my sexual comfort zone has yet to happen with her. And like I said i would be willing to step out of the zone and try it if that would make her happy, although to do what you suggest I would probably need to have all my nasty demands met as well and then some lol.
> 
> Hicks - I agree completely. I actually told her that if our marriage meant that little to her she should leave, get her own place and give our future some deep thought.
> She is in control, and I am working to change that. Her strong will and abrasiveness is part of what attracted me to her, allthough it does have a few downsides as well.


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## Hicks

The takeaway you need to get from this.... Women react with emotion while men apply logic. This is why you think of devastation when thinking of confronting your wife over sex, and she thinks nothing of devastation of the family when confronting you over snowmobiling. By the way, you can read posts in the women's section where one of the posters gets mad at her husband and asks for a separaton on the spot, even thought they have a good marriage and children. Your wife's reaction is not uncommon. You are not alone. The takeaway you need is that to solve your sex problem and your marriage problem, you have to work on your wife's emotional state.


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## SaffronPower

Umm yeah that's a crazy reaction to your first snowmobile accident. 

Honestly I have a hard time understanding some of these men. I would never tell my husband what he can and cannot do like I was his mother. Sheesh. I mean if I have a logical reason that something needs to be done one way or another then yeah we'll decide something together. But man I would never tell him what to do like that.


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## Catherine602

SaffronPower said:


> Umm yeah that's a crazy reaction to your first snowmobile accident.
> 
> Honestly I have a hard time understanding some of these men. I would never tell my husband what he can and cannot do like I was his mother. Sheesh. I mean if I have a logical reason that something needs to be done one way or another then yeah we'll decide something together. But man I would never tell him what to do like that.


I thought I was the only one who could not understand treating a man like a child. The thought of telling my what to do has never crossed my mind. I make request with just cause ( in my mind) and he either agrees or not. If I told him what to do and he let me, I would probably not be as sexually attracted to him because he would be more like a child than an independent man with confidence and purpose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daison

I was the owner of a company for a short period of time and my husband worked for me (not with me...for me). I had very little respect for him and it played out terribly in our relationship. It was obviously that he had very little confidence and at that point in time I thought I "liked" being in charge.

Boy was I wrong. We had agreed early on that if we had kids I would stay home. Best thing we've ever done. We shut down the business and he got a job that paid well enough to support us. Our sex life is AMAZINGGGGGGGGG now (even though we now have a kid). Before we had sex very rarely, once a month if that.


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## theniceguy

Her reaction was to put her head down and play computer after telling me that I was being selfish. 5 days or so have passed and there has been no other mention of the snowmobile ultimatum. There was no concern about me, breaking up the family, etc. Perhaps she saw that she was overeacting and retreated. I will not be giving it up, if anything I will be upgrading this summer.
Also, since I was feeling a lot of anger and aggressiveness the next evening after the kids went to bed i put an adult video on while she wasn't paying attention and told her to take her clothes off like the nasty ":ut she is. She complied fully with my requests. Didn't get too crazy, but for her it is lol!
As for her anxiety/OCD issues I have urged her many a time to at least seek counselling,, but she refuses and tries to "heal" herself.
Never understood why I am such a ***** when it comes to my women. Every other facet of my life I am the alpha - work, sports, friends, etc. 
At times I liken her behaviour to an 8 year old's - for some reason that line only makes the "tanterums" worse.


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## Catherine602

theniceguy said:


> Also, since I was feeling a lot of anger and aggressiveness the next evening after the kids went to bed i put an adult video on while she wasn't paying attention and told her to take her clothes off like the nasty ":ut she is. She complied fully with my requests. Didn't get too crazy, but for her it is lol!
> .


:lol:

I really had to laugh about the video and your order to her. It does not sound like she will have any problem following your lead. 

You situation is not as dire as you made it out to be in your original post. If you married her for the personality she is displaying what did you expect.

If you have changes in what you want her to be then work on it with her. You two connect sexually in a great way, so you love each other. What's the big deal. You can work this out you just have to change your behavior and she will definitely change with you.


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## Trooper

It sounds like the two of you are in a power struggle. It sounds that way in a lot of posts on here. I had always hoped that marriage would be a partnership, but seems like many men have to be "the boss" and forget that marriage is not their job and their wife is not their subordinate. I think it destroys a lot of marriages, mine included. When someone feels their partner is their boss most likely they are not going to be happy. It may work for some, but won't for many.


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## theniceguy

The situation is dire, I assure you. When I do get her to do anything other than totally vanilla it is very seldom. This is only one issue among many. I suspect she played along only because she was feeling guilty and it was her way of saying sorry. What i want is for her to want to be more adventureous, and want to try new things.


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## SaffronPower

okay gotcha on the alpha

Well your original 4 things are not too much to ask...some variety, to be shaved like she used to--she can wax or laser too if shaving doesn't work for her and hand you the bill...lingerie all seem like pretty basic requests. 

The constant complaining needs to end. I'd call her doctor and see if they have any suggestions on getting her in to get evaluated. At the very least it would alert the doctor to "dig in" the next time she came in for an appointment.

Oh and sometimes...good girls need permission to get "dirty." Keep up the work with the sl** talk and the orders. You might just have hit a nerve, maybe not just an apology


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## theniceguy

Update.  The sled ultimatum has waned in intensity. There has been light discussion about it as I replace the broken parts. I was asked when I would be selling it, and I told her it will be sold once I get a newer one. The look was classic, but no blow up or anything. yes I did break my shoulder and was pretty useless for a few weeks while it healed. I feel pretty bad about that, but I did everything I could to help.

However the complainingthe youngest child has had. One bad feeding day dri has intensified. Her happiness seems to be directly tied to how good a feeding day ves a week of anxiety and misery. The complaining is making me quite irritable and angry at times. Here are a couple of examples:
1) Last Friday I made a big meal for all of us, and when I started she asked when it would be ready. I said "I am shooting for 5:30". at 5:30 she comes to the kitchen and asks where dinner is, and I said it won't be ready for about 15 minutes. She flips out, starts complaining about how I always take forever to do anything, etc. Without raising my voice I told her that good things sometimes take time - then more complaining from her. At that point I told her to stop complaining and think about how ridiculous she sounds - her husband makes a complex meal, cleans kitchen, and watches kids while wife watches tv and surfs internet - wife complains about it. I then told her that she could make her own meals if she wasn't comfortable waiting for mine. She ate my dinner.

2) My family came from out of town for an Easter Sunday dinner yesterday. I agreed to prepare dinner (Turkey, stuffing, dessert, etc). For most of the morning and afternoon I prepared dinner with no help, which is fine, played with the kids9went to the park), and cleaned up most of the house. I serve dinner to the whole family, and my Dad was in front of my wife in the buffet line and took all the dark meat I had carved off. Wife eats dinner with a pouty look on her face. After dinner while I am doing dishes, she walks into the kitchen and I ask her how dinner was. She says "thanks for not giving me any dark meat like I wanted". The old me would have flipped right out. Instead the new me said "were there any other issues with your meal that detracted from your enjoyment?" she replied no, and changed the subject. 3 more times that evening she kept bringing it up about the dark meat. I told her that next time just ask and me or someone else will carve off some more, I was unaware there was none left in the serving dish. She kept harping about the dark meat until I asked her why she had to ruin her own happiness and mine over the lack of dark meat?? 
I know I cannot change her, and I knew she was a complainer when we married, but the reasons that drive the complaining are so trivial and selfish that I want to scream sometimes. The amount of complaining/nagging has increased 1000% since wedding day! Any husbands/wives got advice for this????


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## lisa3girls

tpb72 said:


> I would really totally give up on the anal idea. Although it is becoming more and more popular, really it is the minority of women that are into it. If you're having difficulty getting anything other than missionary out of her I'm going to guess anal is totally a pipe dream.
> 
> If this is one of your absolute conditions, I would think you should start preparing yourself to be divorced.


I agree, I am willing to try lots of things and that is not one of them..


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## Boogsie

theniceguy said:


> 2) My family came from out of town for an Easter Sunday dinner yesterday. I agreed to prepare dinner (Turkey, stuffing, dessert, etc). For most of the morning and afternoon I prepared dinner with no help, which is fine, played with the kids9went to the park), and cleaned up most of the house. I serve dinner to the whole family, and my Dad was in front of my wife in the buffet line and took all the dark meat I had carved off. Wife eats dinner with a pouty look on her face. After dinner while I am doing dishes, she walks into the kitchen and I ask her how dinner was. She says "thanks for not giving me any dark meat like I wanted". The old me would have flipped right out. Instead the new me said "were there any other issues with your meal that detracted from your enjoyment?" she replied no, and changed the subject. 3 more times that evening she kept bringing it up about the dark meat. I told her that next time just ask and me or someone else will carve off some more, I was unaware there was none left in the serving dish. She kept harping about the dark meat until I asked her why she had to ruin her own happiness and mine over the lack of dark meat??
> I know I cannot change her, and I knew she was a complainer when we married, but the reasons that drive the complaining are so trivial and selfish that I want to scream sometimes. The amount of complaining/nagging has increased 1000% since wedding day! Any husbands/wives got advice for this????


All this BS over dark meat? She wouldn't shut up about it? She's an adult. If she wanted dark meat then she should have gone to the )*$)#($*)(&#) turkey and cut more off.

Now, knowing how absurd that sounds, she could only have been doing this to test your spine. 

In my eyes you backed down. When she was pushing this your responded with "ask me or someone else to carve some more off for you"???? What is wrong with her carving her own damned turkey? Then you say that she kept brining it up and complaining about it. It sounds like she is saying it is YOUR fault she couldn't go cut herself some more turkey.

I've ready about many husbands and wifes on this forum that sometimes just need to be told to "STFU and quit b*tching".

My wife used to nag me all the time. Nagging and *****ing about things go hand in hand. I handle my business, but not always in the time frame SHE wants or in the way she wants. I stopped it by constantly telling her, if she didn't like how I did things, she can do them herself next time. My wife, being the lazy person she is, doesn't want to do any more so she leaves me alone now.


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## MEM2020

In "concept" I agree with Boogsie that you let her walk all over you. As for his recommended "tactics" they are a sure fire train wreck. NEVER EVER EVER tell your W to STFU because she is being a beetch. EVER. 

Instead do this:
In a sincere voice ask her "Was that important to you"? 
When she says "Of course it was" as if you are an idiot for asking.
You: "If it was important, why didn't you raise this at the time as I would have been glad to help you"?
Her: Blameshifting back on to you - and poking you to try to make you angry
You: Smiling "I disagree" - and then YOU are quiet and go on about your evening. 

When she brings it up again just smile, shrug and say "If you really feel a need to continue discussing this - I will make an appointment with a therapist. I think you need to hear what I said from a professional". I can tell you for sure she will run away from that approach. She will know she is being a bully.

And then stick to that point: The topic is closed outside of a therapy session since the two of you clearly are "deadlocked". 




Boogsie said:


> All this BS over dark meat? She wouldn't shut up about it? She's an adult. If she wanted dark meat then she should have gone to the )*$)#($*)(&#) turkey and cut more off.
> 
> Now, knowing how absurd that sounds, she could only have been doing this to test your spine.
> 
> In my eyes you backed down. When she was pushing this your responded with "ask me or someone else to carve some more off for you"???? What is wrong with her carving her own damned turkey? Then you say that she kept brining it up and complaining about it. It sounds like she is saying it is YOUR fault she couldn't go cut herself some more turkey.
> 
> I've ready about many husbands and wifes on this forum that sometimes just need to be told to "STFU and quit b*tching".
> 
> My wife used to nag me all the time. Nagging and *****ing about things go hand in hand. I handle my business, but not always in the time frame SHE wants or in the way she wants. I stopped it by constantly telling her, if she didn't like how I did things, she can do them herself next time. My wife, being the lazy person she is, doesn't want to do any more so she leaves me alone now.


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## Catherine602

I don't know why not say it - what does he have to lose - why scream in silence. I am opinionated and I don't back down in a discussion. I never approach a discussion with my husband with the vehemence I do on this forum. 

He would not put up with it. If I screamed at him I think he would have me committed. Mr C don't take no s**t and neither should you. If he did, I would keep going and lose respect and sexual attraction for him. 

I think some strong women, not all, want a man who will stand up to her, I do. You need to consistently come back strong, she will change her behavior. 

Stop what you are doing and tell her that she is now free to do the task herself. I don't advocate cursing at a spouse but very occasionally, you need to administer shock therapy in an emergency. This has gotten way out of hand and some shock and awe is in order. 

There should be negative consequences every time she complains. By negative I mean stop what you are doing, tell her in a calm voice and with a friendly face "now this has become your task" and walk away. 

She will learn to stop complaining.


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## Boogsie

MEM11363 said:


> In "concept" I agree with Boogsie that you let her walk all over you. As for his recommended "tactics" they are a sure fire train wreck. NEVER EVER EVER tell your W to STFU because she is being a beetch. EVER.
> 
> Instead do this:
> In a sincere voice ask her "Was that important to you"?
> When she says "Of course it was" as if you are an idiot for asking.
> You: "If it was important, why didn't you raise this at the time as I would have been glad to help you"?
> Her: Blameshifting back on to you - and poking you to try to make you angry
> You: Smiling "I disagree" - and then YOU are quiet and go on about your evening.
> 
> When she brings it up again just smile, shrug and say "If you really feel a need to continue discussing this - I will make an appointment with a therapist. I think you need to hear what I said from a professional". I can tell you for sure she will run away from that approach. She will know she is being a bully.
> 
> And then stick to that point: The topic is closed outside of a therapy session since the two of you clearly are "deadlocked".


I guess I should have been a bit more clear. LOL. I didn't mean LITERALLY tell her to STFU and quit biotching.  I did follow it up with an example of how I handled my problem.

What you are suggesting is reasoning logically. My experiences with my wife were that it didn't work. The only things I've had work at all with my wife were:

1) Psuedo-STFU that was referring to above (I.E. Since I'm not doing it right, YOU can do it from now on) and going about my business.

2) Making her feel exactly like she makes me feel then pointing it out to her WHILE she is feeling it.

She is the type of person when I say, "How do you think it would make you feel if I did that to you?" She answers, "I don't know, I haven't been in that situation." So I put her there THEN ask her. Then, when she finally realizes what I felt like, I have to fight through all the deflection and blameshifting while she tries to wiggle out.

BOTH of my wives have been like this and I'm beginning to think maybe it was a character defect in ME that drew me to this type of woman. Of course, I know ME for the first time ever now as well so making this same mistake in the future may be less of an issue.


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## Boogsie

Catherine602 said:


> I don't know why not say it - what does he have to lose - why scream in silence. I am opinionated and I don't back down in a discussion. I never approach a discussion with my husband with the vehemence I do on this forum.
> 
> He would not put up with it. If I screamed at him I think he would have me committed. Mr C don't take no s**t and neither should you. If he did, I would keep going and lose respect and sexual attraction for him.
> 
> I think some strong women, not all, want a man who will stand up to her, I do. You need to consistently come back strong, she will change her behavior.
> 
> Stop what you are doing and tell her that she is now free to do the task herself. I don't advocate cursing at a spouse but very occasionally, you need to administer shock therapy in an emergency. This has gotten way out of hand and some shock and awe is in order.
> 
> There should be negative consequences every time she complains. By negative I mean stop what you are doing, tell her in a calm voice and with a friendly face "now this has become your task" and walk away.
> 
> She will learn to stop complaining.


I think MEM thought I meant to literally tell her to STFU, which I did not.


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## MEM2020

B,
(2) is a fantastic tactic. I use it frequently and it works better than almost anything else. 

As for (1) I do believe you start with logic. I also get your point. If she tries to steamroll over the logic - and brings it up again with no intention of seeing a therapist - my belief is that the most effective tactic is to simply look her in the eye and say one word with a very sharp edged voice. That word is "Stop". And then if she does not stop turn your back to her and leave the room and if need be the house. 

One word - lots of body language, direct eye contact, strong tone - generally works very well. If she persists and you have to leave the room/house you drop the emotional temperature to zero - until she apologizes. But you only do this stuff if you are willing to precipice dance with her. Because the first few times you do it, she WILL threaten to destabilize the marriage and/or she will try to wait you out for days or weeks to avoid apologizing. 

In that case a short email is useful. Because after a couple weeks when she brings it up - she will completely rewrite the facts of what happened. The email is simply a short recap of what happened, that it is not acceptable and that it won't be resolved until she commits to behaving differently in the future. And if she is really a grownup - that she also apologizes. But the commit to better behavior is more important than the apology. 




Boogsie said:


> I guess I should have been a bit more clear. LOL. I didn't mean LITERALLY tell her to STFU and quit biotching.  I did follow it up with an example of how I handled my problem.
> 
> What you are suggesting is reasoning logically. My experiences with my wife were that it didn't work. The only things I've had work at all with my wife were:
> 
> 1) Psuedo-STFU that was referring to above (I.E. Since I'm not doing it right, YOU can do it from now on) and going about my business.
> 
> 2) Making her feel exactly like she makes me feel then pointing it out to her WHILE she is feeling it.
> 
> She is the type of person when I say, "How do you think it would make you feel if I did that to you?" She answers, "I don't know, I haven't been in that situation." So I put her there THEN ask her. Then, when she finally realizes what I felt like, I have to fight through all the deflection and blameshifting while she tries to wiggle out.
> 
> BOTH of my wives have been like this and I'm beginning to think maybe it was a character defect in ME that drew me to this type of woman. Of course, I know ME for the first time ever now as well so making this same mistake in the future may be less of an issue.


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## Jadegreen

well, niceguy, this is an interesting problem. First, the level of sex is not bad, believe it or not. I get that it is not satisfactory, but the thing is it could and will get a lot worse unless you fix it now. How could it get worse? how about a total freeze....or an affair for her?

I "read" something in here about your wife - particularly the part about her having sex when she is a bit drunk and spending 3 hours fixing herself up to go out, but not wanting to bother to put on a bit of lingerie or shave a bit or such (more about shaving in a minute). I read that she is MAD. Really mad. I don't know why, and I don't think you know either. Ideally, the goal would be to get her to find a constructive way to vent this. I would suggest assertiveness training, for both of you if she is willing, but for you alone if not. 

Assertiveness training focusses on constructive ways of communicating anger. usually the trainers pick something small to use as an example. Changing the way you communicate can bring a lot of stuff to the surface without delving into the background to problems. That can come later.

I would call her actions very passive-aggressive. Like most people around stuffer-exploders (which is what I would call her anger style), you try to appease. (who wants to get splatted all over?). I support the idea of very calmly naming her action and then walking away. You need to not become the fuse for her bomb. Try Harriet Lerner's old book called the "Dance of Anger". 

My own life-learning is that girls are not taught to be direct. We are taught to use the charms we have to get what we want. So when we are unhappy we withdraw our charms. It is a very indirect road to getting what we want, and in my experience seldom pays off.(took me a long, long time to learn that). She probably does not really want to alienate you but it sounds like she does not know how to express anger very directly (in spite of the fact that she is exploding and withdrawing). 

Second the bit about the snowmobile - this is what makes me think anger is behind this. A very long time ago, in my first serious relationship, my boyfriend did something foolish with his off-road bike and cracked up. It was a game-changer for me. I could not stay with a man who was that irresponsible. I was younger and less experienced - Today i would express my fear and disappointment and have a seroius negotiation rather than drawing a firm line. It does not sound like exactly the same thing with you - you say you are safe with it, but maybe for her it is representative of something else that is also a game-changer. After you do the assertiveness training, maybe explore that, in a calm way - not because you are giving it up, but becauase you want to understand her problem with it. Maybe her going out at night is a way of getting back at you for going out with the snowmobile. don't know - just guessing.

third, the waxing. Obviously you like it - however, I would gather that if you are getting hairs in your teeth then some intimacy is going on. This is more passive aggressive stuff, though. So if she does not want to wax, then give up on the going down for now (as a way of calling her bluff) (but later you might have to compromise). Shaving or waxing is time consuming and can be painful as well as expensive, so just bare (hahahah - sorry, had to do that) that in mind.

The fact that she will have sex when she is drunk tells me she is still has sex drive, she is still willing to do it with you, and at some basic level, she still wants you. (I don't agree that this is a sign of putting up with you becuase she could roll over and feign drunken stupor). So, ahem, I would exploit that. I might also, if I were you, pay for her to go to a spa and get a bikini waxing, just before you whisk her away to a retreat (do not let her go out on her own dancing or such after she gets her waxing). Take her somewhere where either she can show off becuase it will make her happy, or take her somewhere you can get her undressed in front of you. I don't know what the weather is like where you are, but a cabin with a hot tub on the deck or something like that where you can go nude. you need to enjoy that present to yourself. I suggest a public venue, though, where she can dress sexily, like a nightclub, becaue you need to look good too, and you need her to see that other gals find you desirable (don't flirt too much - you don't want to give her an excuse - just let the gals look at you, and if you don't feel you are good looking, never mind - her attennae will be up and she will see things you don't). the reason I suggest making yourself attractive is that she is treating you badly - if you are a more desirable commodity in her eyes she will behave a bit better. After other girls treat you well, and she is a bit drunk and feeling sexy from the waxing, then take her up to your room, and good luck, but do not be disappointed if she goes to sleep. do not give her the satisfaction of holding out on you - then she would win the passive aggressive game. the more you want, the more she will deny. If that happens, then, in the morning, go for a run, or go out for a coffee and get the paper, or whatever your style is.

And do not listen when she complains about your gift. If she does not want the waxing then pay for a pedicure. Don't let her just say "no" to a gift like that. And don't give her a gift certificate - make the appointment for her and make it clear to salon staff that this is a surprise and she is not to change the appointment or you will not pay. Salon staff are pretty good about dealing with presents for wives and girlfriends.

best of luck.


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## theniceguy

Thanks for all the good advice guys, I am taking heed of all of it! Jadegreen - your suggestions are all valid, but I have tried several of them in the past with no success, withholding oral, surprise spa packages, etc. She just cries and tells me I don't love her. Good times.
Something has to change, I am so stressed out that have a constant headache, I am grinding my teeth to dust, and every day when I drive home from work I think about what it would be like if I just kept on driving.


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## Catherine602

theniceguy said:


> Thanks for all the good advice guys, I am taking heed of all of it! Jadegreen - your suggestions are all valid, but I have tried several of them in the past with no success, withholding oral, surprise spa packages, etc. She just cries and tells me I don't love her. Good times.
> Something has to change, I am so stressed out that have a constant headache, I am grinding my teeth to dust, and every day when I drive home from work I think about what it would be like if I just kept on driving.


This is one thing I can't understand. She says that you don't love her when you withdraw what she needs and even cries. What I don't understand is what twisted logic does she use to arrive at the conclusion that you don't feel as pained by her withdrawal from you. 

What does she say when you tell her you feel the same pain as she does? Have you told her exactly how you feel as you wrote here. What would you say if you ask her how she can show you so little love and in fact cause you pain? 

If she an empathetic woman? Does she show you love in any other way? Does she say she loves you? Ask her how can she watch you suffer as you do.


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## Jadegreen

theniceguy said:


> Thanks for all the good advice guys, I am taking heed of all of it! Jadegreen - your suggestions are all valid, but I have tried several of them in the past with no success, withholding oral, surprise spa packages, etc. She just cries and tells me I don't love her. Good times.
> Something has to change, I am so stressed out that have a constant headache, I am grinding my teeth to dust, and every day when I drive home from work I think about what it would be like if I just kept on driving.


Hi nice-guy. I was pretty forceful in what I wrote. I very seldom take that approach. something in what you wrote inspired me to answer a bit differently than I usually do - so I'm doubly sorry it did not work. 

Grinding your teeth is not good. Thinking about driving on is no good. Such things make me think you are very very stressed about this situation. You have not, if I recall, really talked about leaving her - you are really trying to make it work. This is really admirable, but I wonder if you maybe should talk to a counsellor. 

Sometimes just to sit down and say "I can't take this and I don't know what to do... and I've tried everything..." just lifts the burden a bit by sharing it. You might be able to work through what you can tolerate, and what you can't. A counsellor might have new ideas, or just might help you sort out your feelings. 

As the previous writer said, there is something odd in what you describe. On the one hand, she cries. On the other hand, she denies. She goes out with the girls, but she doesn't want you to snowmobile. It sounds like you can't figure it out either. 

in my marriage, I call this a merry-go-round, and when we get on that merry-go-round we now know enought to get right off (after 18 years at it). The little ponies we are chasing are stuck to the ride - they are moving with us! - it is the motor underneath that is causing the problem (sorry for such a bad metaphor). We need to get underneath and deal with the motor. then we are working together. it sounds like you don't know what is driving this problem. the surface stuff doesn't really make sense yet. And it might not ever - but that is what a counsellor can help you figure out. 

it also sounds like the part about sex is not the real problem - it is, as others say, a weapon being used in a fight about something else. 

hope that helps, and I hope you are kind to yourself.


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## theniceguy

Yes, she does use sex or sexual favours as a "weapon", but more so as a reward system for a job well done, like weeding the garden or something along that line. Not gonna tackle that one for awhile though as it is a little lower on my priority list.
What I have been working on is my irritability, along with my reactions to her behaviour. The home is now a slightly more relaxing place with less complaining and whining as I have made it known that I will no longer accept large amounts of it. I have really made a point of dealing with my tendency to fly off the handle over little things, which has also helped greatly with home life. On a sadder note, the hair hungle has now spread to her legs and armpits. She actually is amused by showing me her lack of grooming. Not really sure how to handle that one, nothing turns me off more than a woman with an out of control bush, and armpits, and legs.....If I wanted hairy would have married a dude lol!
No progress on the "sell your snowmobile" ultimatum. Might try to offer a compromise by trading for a less powerful model maybe. Opinions?


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## theniceguy

Just found this old thread when I was cleaning out my email inbox, oh how times change. I realized after all of this that I essentially was spending my life trying to make her happy, and wondering why she didn't make me happy. Really, the only one who can make me happy is me, and the only one that can make her happy is her. Once I took that power back our lives changed for the better. I used to beg for sex and pout when I didn't get it. Now I take control and get what I want. I used to beg permission and allow the guilt trips to ruin any "me/sledding" time that I had. Not anymore, I keep it reasonable and laugh away any guilt trips. In regards to her nagging, complaining, anxiety etc. Still strong in her, but I changed how I react to all of it and call her on it where necessary. I don't let it ruin my day. She has been diagnosed with anxiety and is taking steps to heal herself. Part of her issue has been the baby weight, which since losing has gained a lot more confidence in herself. My challenges are sticking with the boundaries I have set, but since she quit to raise children full time, and me establishing myself as the "man" of the house this has become way easier. My slippers, bourbon and pipe aren't waiting at the door for me, but we are both much happier being in more traditional roles than 5 years ago. She appreciates me way more now than she used too. Thank you "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and the forums on this site for helping me slay the ***** whipped no balls monster that I used to be.


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## Vulcan2013

What an awesome update!


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## Thound

theniceguy said:


> Thanks for the responses, I will definitely be looking into the "Man-Up" section. Here are my responses:
> 
> Bad News - Prior to marriage it was better and more frequent, but the decline started around the time I put an engagement ring on her finger.
> 
> Ms Lady - The reasons for long and glorious pubic hair are from millions of years of evolution - before people bathed, lived inside from the elements, etc. Aside from the clean stealthy look of being shaved, it feels much better to a man when there is nothing getting in the way, especially when going down on her. It ain't the 70's, and it wasn't the 70's until around the time we got married. her main complaint is my grouchiness, and that I don't talk about my feelings enough. Oh, and yes I am a deviant for wanting these terrible things. As for the sex therapist thing i don't really want it to come down to that, but I fear that is a path we are headed.
> 
> Cheating Hubby - she lays there like a corpse prob 8 times out of 10. the other 2 times she's drunk and gets into it more so. Frequency is about once every week to 2 weeks.(I would like it at least 3-4 times a week). As for the mid roll over timing, she totally stops that, and gets "scared and anxious". I don't want no porn star, just want a wife that will pretend to be one once in awhile lol! Sometimes I wonder if she had a bad boyfriend in the past or something. I am pretty sure she has undiagnosed anxiety issues.
> 
> Lost Soul - Tried tried and tried. No go. Anal is like the forbidden fruit, the more I get told no the more I want it lol!


Well there you go. Some women are allergic to gold, and some are allergic to wedding cake.


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## frusdil

lost soul said:


> There you go ,,,,, maybe something happened to her as a child.


Not necessarily. Nothing happened to me as a child and I won't do that either. I'm absolutely steadfast in my feelings too, and will not budge. When Mr F and I were dating and talking about sex and our boundaries I made it clear that that was one of mine - and I don't have many. I made it very clear that I will never do it and he's never asked. He knew years ago, well before we were even living together, so if he started badgering me for it now that would be very unfair.


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## Be.Free

russ101 said:


> I don't know that I have any advice for you. But I do know how you feel. My wife went from wanting to have sex 10-12 times per month (passionate sex, with lots of oral, kissing, different positoins etc) 6 years ago, to a steady decline to what it is now. Sex once or twice a month (could have it more, but she would complain to no end) and it is definitley dead fish sex, no kissing (she told me she doesn't want to kiss any more about 5 years ago), no foreplay, no oral. She doesn't even take all her clothes off. Oh yeah, and it has to be completely dark. She just lays there with her head turned, and waits until I am done. She is 45 and just recently went through menopause, and she has no desire at all for sex anymore.
> 
> So because it is not important to her, then she doesn't care if it is important to me. She justifies it by saying, well I'm not denying you sex, so stop complaining. We'll after the last time we had sex (early December), I decided that I didn't want to have sex like that anymore, so I will wait until she asks me for it, and guess what? I'm still waiting. If something doesn't change soon, I'm thinking of asking her for an open relationship, or divorce (lot to think about there). To be honest, I don't think she would even care if I had sex with someone else now, just as long as she didn't know about it. It would take all the pressure off of her. Just know that I feel your pain!


russ, almost exactly the same situation although my wife is 41 and not hit the big M yet. We have two small kids. Keeps wiping her mouth when we kiss and staring a the ceiling. Head on hand and rolls eyes completely bored. I recognise I'm the high desire one but she only half tries. Has many body self-esteem issues (was bulimic even into first year of marriage) which is madness coz she is a hotty, not tall super model, but still a blonde hotty. Won't talk about sex, won't go anywhere near oral. Simplemarriage.net has helped me a become less Mr NiceGuy and more ask for what I want. But it doesn't help to ask if constantly refused. I do wonder if low desire people will ever be able to be what we want/need.


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## chillymorn

it won't change.......lick your wounds and move on.


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