# Considering living separately from H, need opinions/advice



## DrWife (May 20, 2011)

So here's the breakdown:

I have a history of domestic violence (everything from rape to choking to being beaten) and have also lived with many people who were severely chemically imbalanced and prone to emotional abusiveness and addictions.

My H, is a wonderful man with a very kind heart. However, sometimes when we disagree he yells and slams doors and makes vague threats to my son, eg "I'm fixing to use that fly swatter for something else if you don't listen!" as well as just generally being harsh with him and very criticizing. I understand he has anxiety issues and does not control his emotions as well as I do, and I don't put all the blame on him for the stress he has over my son who can be quite difficult despite consistent discipline. But we have tried books on marriage, talking, making lists to get on the same page with parenting rules, etcetera. We cannot afford health insurance to see a marriage counselor.

It has really gotten to the breaking point with me in the last couple of weeks where I just will not tolerate the behavior any more. I love him and I want my marriage to work. I believe much of his stress may stem from the fact that we really rushed into getting married when we should have dated for longer and waited longer to move in together. I think it is a lot for him to take in being on his own most of his life and suddenly he has a wife and a 6 year old son to look after. Anyway- what I need is a plan of action. I told him I don't WANT to live separately but I can't live the way things are right now and that I am open to any other ideas he has for what we can DO to improve things.

He says... "maybe we can get some marriage books on audio tape instead." I asked him, kindly and calmly, "how would having the books on audio tape make them more effective?". And he said "I don't know. I can't think of anything."

So I'm here looking for advice on alternatives to marriage counseling for us. Something we can actually DO. Because his apologies and promises to 'never do that again', they haven't changed anything. And we've done nothing but read marriage books since we got hitched and answer the questions and do the exercises and make lists for each other and all that these types of books will typically ask you to do to strengthen your marriage.

I really don't want to live separately. And I really can't live like this. Please help.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Marriage counselor and possibly individual therapy for him or both of you.


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## DrWife (May 20, 2011)

KanDo said:


> Marriage counselor and possibly individual therapy for him or both of you.


We can't afford health insurance or else would definitely be going! I have told him I would do individual counseling as well.


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## Vixen3927 (May 2, 2011)

*It sounds to me like both you and your husband are passively trying to repair the marriage. I know you are trying other alternatives to marriage counseling like reading marriage books but this is the difference between counseling and self-help: accountability. 

With a counselor, you are not only responsible and accountable to yourself and your partner, but your therapist too. You report back to them, discuss and process your progress, and they give you feedback and more exercises to do and report back on. When it is just your husband and yourself working on the marriage, the accountability gets cut at least into 3rds, if not, in half. It goes from being accountable to 3 people (therapist, spouse, yourself) down to either two (yourself and your spouse) or just one (yourself). When that happens, the motivation and actual change is significantly reduced. 

What I'm hearing is that both of you are reading the books but not doing much of anything else. Change requires two processes: comprehension and execution. It sounds like you have the comprehension thing down (you're both reading the books and comprehending what is being said in them) but that neither of you are really executing what you have just learned. That lack of execution, I feel, again comes back to the fact that both of you have low accountability. 

My guess is that Both of you may be holding yourselves accountable (barely, even) but that there is very little cross-accountability going on. Neither of you are holding the other accountable for themselves. If both of you start to take an active role in your partner's accountability, then their responsibility suddenly doubles. They now have to answer to themselves AND someone else. That increases motivation and often times creates the push necessary to actually carry out what was comprehended and to execute it (the second step and necessary component of change). 

The key is to be patient. Give the other partner some time to get used to being responsible for themselves and you. Just like you may not comprehend a paragraph the first time you read it and you may need to go over it 3 or 4 more times until you understand it, the same goes for accountability. Your partner may not show signs of change the first few times and may even appear to be ignoring your role in their change process but keep at it in an non-discouraging manner. For example, if they "mess up" or do something the same way they always have, instead of saying something like, "You're still doing it! I thought you said you wanted to change! This is just showing me that you still don't care about me", say something like, "I noticed you did the same thing again. I forgive you. Let me tell you again what I would like you to do so that next time you'll know. Remember, I'm helping you execute the change." 

Little by little, you should begin to see change. If, however, things stay stagnant, you should still not give up on your own self-improvement. Although you may not be able to afford marriage counseling or any counseling for that matter, you still can work on yourself and make changes about yourself. Remember, you cannot change a person but you can change yourself and your reactions to people. Even if others do not hold themselves accountable to themselves and others, you still can, and should. After all, you are the only one who can make you change. Hope this helps!

ps, websites like these help you to get an alternative kind of marriage counseling. It is sometimes just as effective hearing others' advice and once in a while you may get a free session without even knowing it! I'm a therapist so you just got a little bit of marriage counseling for free!*


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## DrWife (May 20, 2011)

Vixen3927 said:


> *It sounds to me like both you and your husband are passively trying to repair the marriage. I know you are trying other alternatives to marriage counseling like reading marriage books but this is the difference between counseling and self-help: accountability.
> 
> With a counselor, you are not only responsible and accountable to yourself and your partner, but your therapist too. You report back to them, discuss and process your progress, and they give you feedback and more exercises to do and report back on. When it is just your husband and yourself working on the marriage, the accountability gets cut at least into 3rds, if not, in half. It goes from being accountable to 3 people (therapist, spouse, yourself) down to either two (yourself and your spouse) or just one (yourself). When that happens, the motivation and actual change is significantly reduced.
> 
> ...


I understand and appreciate your response. I am also reading self-help for ME, in dealing with overcoming relationship anxieties due to my history of being abused. I openly admit maybe it's not fair for me to expect he NEVER yells at me or my son, at the moment I do not know how to change that expectation or if I should (if it's fair or not, I really don't know).

I would like to note (since I did not above) that I have made many changes in the way *I* do things, such as learning his love language and adapting to it. He is very reliant on physical displays of affection and words of praise, and I am more the kind of person who is into conversation and doing things for people when they are not expecting them- that's how I show my love. For me I had to make a list to accomplish changing my communication to him- things to do daily, such as cuddle morning and night, compliment him, a massage once a week, etcetera. After about a week I did not even need the list anymore, I was doing them consistently and my H was much happier. I still do these things. He agrees I am a very constructive communicator and says he doesn't know if it's even possible to raise an issue with him without getting him upset. I'm really trying!

So it's not really true that I haven't had accountability in this in terms of changing my actions. I have also tried to help him to understand my son and parenting better by finding him outside resources (and I said I would take parenting classes with him or read the books with him so we could learn together). I have asked him every time if he feels I am being fair or if he sees the situation we are discussing differently. I get a lot of non responses- 'I don't know', although sometimes he says 'you're right', but that's it. He is so in his head. We discussed the idea of living separately and he's being completely silent today. I told him I do not want to but I really need his help to try and amend these issues. I don't know what to do.


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## DrWife (May 20, 2011)

I just want to add that it's not that I want to make it out like I have no issues or it's all his problem- it's just that I AM taking culpability in my role in this and I HAVE been changing my own behaviors, I have taken actual action and not just said 'oh I'm not going to do this anymore' or whatever. For example a couple of times I corrected him in front of our son- openly disagreed with him about the way he was treating him, and I said "I should never do that, I'm sorry and I won't do it again." And I haven't. I am 100% willing to be 'at fault', right now I just feel like my rope is burning out and I'm out of ideas.


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## DrWife (May 20, 2011)

"Neither of you are holding the other accountable for themselves. If both of you start to take an active role in your partner's accountability, then their responsibility suddenly doubles." GREAT ADVICE!! How can I do this? I have mentioned on these boards more than once that I do not have a good grip on the whole setting boundaries thing.


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## rikithemonk (Jun 8, 2011)

Sounds to me like the guy was stupid. Let me explain. 

Men will not live in chaos. We need our homes to be a fortress of solitude. A place away from the hassles of the out side world. We don't need or want drama or problems when we come home. We only want to unwind, and relax and be with our families.

He has placed himself in an imposable position. You have a child that is uncontrollable. He needs to get things under control, however, he is, and always will be an outsider to you. If there is conflict between an outsider and your son, you will always side with your son. Its biological. Your son is not stupid. He takes advantage of this and plays your emotions against you to undermined your husband and get his own way. I have seen this happen, over and over, to several different families. It always destroys the children. They get manipulative, uncontrolable and always self destruct in their teenage years because they have learned that there are no real rules. 

If you want to save your child, you have to divorce and stay single until such time as you can gain control of your child. Let the guy off the hook. This is a no win situation for him and its entirely not fair to keep this level of stress and powerlessness on him.


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## DrWife (May 20, 2011)

rikithemonk said:


> Sounds to me like the guy was stupid. Let me explain.
> 
> 
> He has placed himself in an imposable position. You have a child that is uncontrollable. He needs to get things under control, however, he is, and always will be an outsider to you. If there is conflict between an outsider and your son, you will always side with your son. Its biological. Your son is not stupid. He takes advantage of this and plays your emotions against you to undermined your husband and get his own way. I have seen this happen, over and over, to several different families. It always destroys the children. They get manipulative, uncontrolable and always self destruct in their teenage years because they have learned that there are no real rules.
> ...


Wow. I have to say that seems like a really drastic response. I realize this situation is highly stressful to him but I have to believe there is a way to work with it.  And FYI, I *always* take my husbands side with my son (except for the two times I said above that I sided with w/my son in front of him which I have not done since and will not do again bc I know that was disrespectful and wrong), even when I do not agree with it and we have a strict rule of do not ask me if he said no and do not ask him if I said no, and he does go to time out or get privileges taken away if he violates that rule. My son does know better. Whether he always follows that rule is another thing (he definitely does TRY to manipulate in that sense from time to time) but I do not let him 'play me' with my H. We worked on our parenting guidelines *together*. I suggested we take on learning more about parenting *together*, not just him him him with the problem.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

If you don't have the money, you both may want to try a faith-based type of intervention with marriage counseling, which is usually free from teh church you belong to.

I am not sure of your religious background(s) and whether that is palatable to you at all. . .but soemtimes a man needs to understand there are greater forces and perhaps a higher authority at work than himself and then take that into a marriage.

Actually, it's only since about 1960 that Psychobabblists took over the Marital Problem Industry. I think this was kind of done in cooperation with allopathy, where a "diagnosis" could be placed upon people and couples. The "diagnosis-centered" intervention has prevailed since and this is where family doctors will generally "triage" the couple towards - counseling.

However, psychobabblist's record is about as stellar as members of the clergy.

In years past, ailing couples sought the council of a pastor, priest, rabbi, or minister when they had marital problems. That is part of the reason they are there. 

And if you kill each other. . .they can give you last rites


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## DrWife (May 20, 2011)

Scannerguard said:


> If you don't have the money, you both may want to try a faith-based type of intervention with marriage counseling, which is usually free from teh church you belong to.
> 
> I am not sure of your religious background(s) and whether that is palatable to you at all. . .but soemtimes a man needs to understand there are greater forces and perhaps a higher authority at work than himself and then take that into a marriage.
> 
> ...


LOL! Well we are both agnostic and don't attend church. Your last quote so reminded me of the movie "War of the Roses".


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## rikithemonk (Jun 8, 2011)

DrWife said:


> Wow. I have to say that seems like a really drastic response. I realize this situation is highly stressful to him but I have to believe there is a way to work with it.  And FYI, I *always* take my husbands side with my son (except for the two times I said above that I sided with w/my son in front of him which I have not done since and will not do again bc I know that was disrespectful and wrong), even when I do not agree with it and we have a strict rule of do not ask me if he said no and do not ask him if I said no, and he does go to time out or get privileges taken away if he violates that rule. My son does know better. Whether he always follows that rule is another thing (he definitely does TRY to manipulate in that sense from time to time) but I do not let him 'play me' with my H. We worked on our parenting guidelines *together*. I suggested we take on learning more about parenting *together*, not just him him him with the problem.


After rereading my post, I can be taken as a bit harsh. Wasn't meant to be. However, I have seen this happen with my divorced male friends. Two of them stayed in the situation and it did destroy the kids in both families. One of the kids is now hooked on meth and spends most of his time going in and out of detention centers. I think he is 16 or 17 or so. The other family I know daughter is an alcoholic. Got pregnant at 14 or 15 and is now living with the fathers parents. 

Most men in situations like this just burn out. Usually the child escalates things to the point that the mother forces the guy to leave. Or in your case, You've decided to move out.


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## DrWife (May 20, 2011)

rikithemonk said:


> After rereading my post, I can be taken as a bit harsh. Wasn't meant to be. However, I have seen this happen with my divorced male friends. Two of them stayed in the situation and it did destroy the kids in both families. One of the kids is now hooked on meth and spends most of his time going in and out of detention centers. I think he is 16 or 17 or so. The other family I know daughter is an alcoholic. Got pregnant at 14 or 15 and is now living with the fathers parents.
> 
> Most men in situations like this just burn out. Usually the child escalates things to the point that the mother forces the guy to leave. Or in your case, You've decided to move out.


Well what do you mean by the child "escalates things to the point that..."? How would a six year old boy do that? I can see what you mean by they can be a wedge between couples (not purposefully though, my son REALLY wants a father figure bad!), for example because my H doesn't talk to my son the way I want him too, he's harsher than I think is acceptable, etc, yes that creates a HUGE divide. But IDK I almost get the impression you are insinuating it's the kids faults somehow...


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## DrWife (May 20, 2011)

What do you think I can do as the woman and mother, other than what I have already done which is to come up with a parenting plan WITH my husband and offer that I will take parenting classes WITH him so we can reach a middle ground? (Although yes on the yelling and constant criticism I'm not flexible but I honestly do not feel that is unfair. I think there needs to be a standard for parenting, and that discipline is not always b*tching at a kid, it's know what battles to pick and when.. for my H everything is a battle, he even picks verbal fights with my son when he is already in time out!). I would really love to know what else I can do, I'm not being facetious either, I feel like my idea tank has glugged out or something, so I need some advice on what else I can do to make the parenting thing easier for him and so he feels more equal in that.


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## Vixen3927 (May 2, 2011)

_Think of it as a work-related relationship. If you were the boss of someone and they came in late for the first time ever, you wouldn't really repremand them. (Just like you wouldn't necessarily yell or get mad at your husband for doing the same thing he always did when he's first attempting to change.) A few more incidences of lateness and the worker should get a stern talking to where negative consequences would be outlined but not yet enforced. He would be told, however, that the next time he is late, this negative consequence will be executed. With your husband, after several attempts of changing have failed, sitting down and talking with him about his progress and what he can expect if he still doesn't change. 

This does a few things: it makes him aware of the consequences to come which also makes him more attentive to his behaviors. It also makes it known to him exactly what is at stake should he make that infraction again. Finally, it reiterates to him that there is someone else partially in control of his fate. Just like if you were self-employed, you really had no one to account to. If you work FOR someone, though, now both you AND him have control over the fate of your job. With regards to your husband's change, he is no longer a self-employed man where if he messes up, he gets to decide how to punish himself. Now, and as a marriage should be, there is a spouse involved and you have the right to partially hold him responsible for him. 

Before talking to him about these infractions, however, make sure you do your part and really take some time to think about what consequences are going to be executable, effective, and meaningful to him. If a boss tells his employer that he'll no longer get to have the free coffee in the employee kitchen in the morning and the employee rarely drinks coffee, that punishment isn't much incentive for him to not be late. (Although maybe he's always so late in the morning BECAUSE he doesn't drink coffee in the morning ) If, however, the boss tells the employee that he will not be able to continue working on the project that the employee spearheaded, then the employee may wake up juuuuust a little earlier in the morning (behavior change) to make sure he gets to work on time. So make sure what you have lined up for your husband as negative consequences are poignent to him.

Finally, if the infractions continue, and this is the hardest part, you have to follow through on your previously discussed actions. Not doing so, just like him not changing shows he doesn't care, will show that you too also do not care about his change. You have to tell yourself that his change is more important than the negative consequences you'd be imposing on him. Even though no one really wants to "punish" their loved one, especially if they're trying to change and may be slower to the start than most, it is sometimes necessary. If they are not going to motivate themselves positively, then they must have someone else motivate them negatively. It doesn't necessarily mean that your husband doesn't really want to change, he may really really want to but all of us sometimes, even if we really want something, won't get it unless we are forced into discomfort (negative consequence). 

Now, some may be saying that I'm suggesting to create a negative reinforcement environment and to them I say, you're damn right I am. You don't want to reward someone for something that they should be doing right in the first place. I can't stand when parents say, "But I take care of my child!" No ****! You're SUPPOSED to take care of your child. You don't get rewarded for that! That's what you're supposed to do. That's why I say that you shouldn't reward someone with positive reinforcement for doing something they should have been doing right to begin with. 

Once they have started making changes, though, that is when you change your tactics. If you begin to see changes, it is important to give positive reinforcement (not reward. REINFORCEMENT. Reward = gift. reinforcement = positive affirmations and comments). This positive reinforcement is used to SUSTAIN the new behavior. 

So remember, negative CONSEQUENCES (actions) to CHANGE the old behavior, positive REINFORCEMENT to SUSTAIN the new behavior. 

Hope this helps! _


DrWife said:


> "Neither of you are holding the other accountable for themselves. If both of you start to take an active role in your partner's accountability, then their responsibility suddenly doubles." GREAT ADVICE!! How can I do this? I have mentioned on these boards more than once that I do not have a good grip on the whole setting boundaries thing.


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## DrWife (May 20, 2011)

Vixen3927 said:


> _Think of it as a work-related relationship. If you were the boss of someone and they came in late for the first time ever, you wouldn't really repremand them. (Just like you wouldn't necessarily yell or get mad at your husband for doing the same thing he always did when he's first attempting to change.) A few more incidences of lateness and the worker should get a stern talking to where negative consequences would be outlined but not yet enforced. He would be told, however, that the next time he is late, this negative consequence will be executed. With your husband, after several attempts of changing have failed, sitting down and talking with him about his progress and what he can expect if he still doesn't change.
> 
> This does a few things: it makes him aware of the consequences to come which also makes him more attentive to his behaviors. It also makes it known to him exactly what is at stake should he make that infraction again. Finally, it reiterates to him that there is someone else partially in control of his fate. Just like if you were self-employed, you really had no one to account to. If you work FOR someone, though, now both you AND him have control over the fate of your job. With regards to your husband's change, he is no longer a self-employed man where if he messes up, he gets to decide how to punish himself. Now, and as a marriage should be, there is a spouse involved and you have the right to partially hold him responsible for him.
> 
> ...


But what kind of "consequences" should I have? I'm 100% with you on the premise but what should consequences be? Where I'm at right now is the point where being really supportive and trying to help heal the situation with positivity and encouragement are not working and I am just really mad. That's why I know I need boundaries work. I would love some examples of consequences to help me!


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## Vixen3927 (May 2, 2011)

Well, see now here's the deal. I don't know your husband so I don't know what's near and dear to his heart that he would consider negative consequences. This is where your effort comes in. You need to think of the personal and idividualistic consequences for your husband. Only you know what will really cause him to reconsider. I can help people in a lot of places but honestly when it comes to that stuff, it's up to you to take the controls and become an active participant in his change and that includes you yourself coming up with negative consequences, not me. I don't know your husband well enough (I don't know your husband at all for that matter! ) to know what would hit home. Sorry but I can't help in this instance. Your turn! You're more than welcome to bounce some ideas off of me, though, but you have to come up with those ideas on your own.


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