# OM pushing or WW green-lighting?



## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Maybe, looking at the thread: *'Is the AP free from accountability when the wayward Green Lights the Affair?*', it got me thinking.

I always wondered about this....when I managed to break into my wife's Facebook account - (_her OM#1 doesn't have Facebook_) but I did find original messaging from my separated-wife (_at the time, in a 6-month 'affair' with OM#1_) and my 'friend', who ended up as OM#2 (of sorts).
What follows, is word-for-word between OM#2 and my wife, a day after they first met (_I was there at the time_).
Sorry it's so long - who do you think instigated this?:

_Matt:
Hi Nikki
Great to finally meet you last night (you're not how I originally imagined!) Thanks for the techie-advice - that's usually my thing(!) and will definately take you up on that LCD-TV offer. Maybe you can also help me find a decent car, LOL!

Hope to see you soon
Matt


Nikki:
Hey Matt!

Lovely to hear from you.

Ooooh, so what did you originally imagine (I'm intrigued now)?

Techie-advice a pleasure (Not your typical woman, don't like to wax lyrical about all things hair, nails and make up, I tend to just get on with doing and wearing them! Much prefer to talk boys stuff.....but not sports, especially football; it's too wrong, as per our previous discussions  )

Not too hot under the bonnet of a car but can certainly help you decide and am pretty good at cuttin a deal/finding a bargain or sussing the most economical way to buy it. I'm a bit savvy with the cash.

Re: TVs. On my card, I'm allowed to shop any weekday after 12 til 8pm (?) or any time weekends. It'd be a pleasure to help.

Likewise, great to meet you, did text Dave earlier to say sorry if me and the kids outstayed our welcome or if I was too annoying!!
Intelligent, adult conversation is a novelty for me these days 

Nikki x


Matt:
LOL - hold on - let me get a triple/espresso and I'll reply!
(it's 9am...starting to flag already after last night and it wasn't that late!)

Hey!
Okay, head's starting to clear...
You: What did I think then? I thought you'd be a 'quiet, Mumsy, sensible' type. (that sounds bad, huh?) What do I think now? Hmmmm...

Girly: Yeah, I get all the hair/nails/makeup stuff at work - sharing an office with 5 women and 1 other guy. (Tough life...you don’t know the half of it)

Entertainment: So, remind me again: satellite TV and telephone and Internet is all done through Virgin Media? Yeah the LCD- I’m down for that, thank you! I'll let you know when?

Motor: I'm pretty sold on the Audi - along with BMs, almost everyone has said to me: "Jerk's Car" Hey, does that include female-drivers?

Annoying: Yeah, I did think at one point, "Is she EVER going to stop talking?"...

....nah, come on, it was great to talk to you...you didn’t outstay your welcome at all - it was me who suggested you come in anyway. Intelligent, adult conversation is what I'm all about...so, you know, if you ever want to go there again (ironing done, kids sorted, Bacardi bottle open, etc, LOL)...let me know. However, I bet I could have you running for the door if we really got down and serious about it.

M x


Nikki:
Sorry I didn't reply, this is really late....but as days go, that was pretty crappy! So, 'running for the door'.......now you've got me intrigued all over again! Just need to set you straight on a couple of things, when you have kids the ironing's never done! Kids are easily sorted.....but sadly leave me holed up at home and 'Ron Bacardi' is one of my closest friends, as for further adult interaction, that'll be a yes, if only to find out if you could make me run!!!!
And should an iPhone really be this hard??? x



Matt:
Morning Nikki!

Sorry for your bad day (from your morning message you sounded quite happy) but you know, scratch that one and wake up today and say "Hit me" (again)

Okay I'll 'de-intrigue' you about my 1st impressions. I thought: 'Not quiet, not Mumsy and not too sensible' How's that for a PC answer?

Kids + ironing I can't really answer that one. I guess you could teach them to wash-and-put-away? 2/3 ain't bad.

That Ronnie...he's a one, isn't he? Always a bit too reliable IMO.

Further adult-conversing, well Im nowhere near as busy as you so whenever really! That door I told you about? It's always open...

You're part of the iPhone Generation now Nik, it should be easy. Get with it, girl!


Nikki:

I need your mobile number_



What followed was a frenzy of daily-texting, late night telephone calls (I mean, _3-4 hours l_ong, telephone calls) and a first hookup 4 days after this at his house.

I know this is all a bit vague, I'm just having a few 'trigger-moments' and needed to get some TAM opinions... :scratchhead:


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

davecarter said:


> Matt:
> "Hope to see you soon."
> 
> "So, you know, if you ever want to go there again (ironing done, kids sorted, Bacardi bottle open, etc, LOL)...let me know."
> ...


Matt was casually fishing, seeing if she would escalate.

Nikki knew exactly what he was doing and enthusiastically green-lighted it.

Pretty cut and dry to me. He hit on her and she liked him so she flirted back.

I think while Matt technically "instigated", Nikki took it to the next level when she asked for his number.

She might as well have said, "I just took your bait so just reel me in....."


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I don't know, it sounds like friendly banter on the surface that probably developed into feelings as they interacted more regularly. With the OM being a friend of yours, that's definitely a double betrayal. But at the end of the day is it worth trying to figure out who is the pursuer vs who was pursued? Your wife and you are the two that need to keep the marital vows, so the crux of the blame for your situation goes to her - especially if this was not her first OM.

Not to sound like a jerk, but if you knew she was talking to your friend for 3 - 4 hours at a time or even didn't bat an eye if the two of them spent time together on their own, then there was a legit chance that you could have nipped this in the bud before it took off.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

No way to tell who initiated from that tidbit.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I don't know, it sounds like friendly banter on the surface that probably developed into feelings as they interacted more regularly. With the OM being a friend of yours, that's definitely a double betrayal. But at the end of the day is it worth trying to figure out who is the pursuer vs who was pursued? Your wife and you are the two that need to keep the marital vows, so the crux of the blame for your situation goes to her - especially if this was not her first OM.
> 
> Not to sound like a jerk, but if you knew she was talking to your friend for 3 - 4 hours at a time or even didn't bat an eye if the two of them spent time together on their own, then there was a legit chance that you could have nipped this in the bud before it took off.


I didn't know until I managed to get into her online phone-records 7 weeks later...they texted up to 30x a day and spoke during the day (10-20mins) and 1-2x a week (usually from 10pm onwards til early hours off the morning)

I know she went to his house, maybe 4-5 times in the 2 months they were in contact (she says she stopped over twice)....and he came to our marital home 3-4 times.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

The thing is, my 'friend' seemed to have out-Alpha'd the OM#1 which surprised me being as the latter is ex-army, pretty built and has certain physical 'reputation'...


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

davecarter said:


> The thing is, my 'friend' seemed to have out-Alpha'd the OM#1 which surprised me being as the latter is ex-army, pretty built and has certain physical 'reputation'...


Can I assume this is an ex friend?

What a scumbag.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Can I assume this is an ex friend?
> 
> What a scumbag.


Yeah, I haven't spoken to him since this all blew itself out back in August.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

My gut says she sent screaming signals that she was open. He sent an "innocent" fishing message and included enough bait to see what would happen. He was probably aware of her reputation?

She took the bait so easily it was pathetic. Asking "what he expected" was a clear "tell me I'm pretty or hot"...Seriously if she's good at finding an Audi or BMW at bargain prices, I'd like to hire her. I'm in the market for an S5 (but of topic sorry).

They both seemed to cross boundaries quickly and easily. So fast its hard to say who initiated what. Since he seemed to be messaging her in response to her offer of an LCD TV deal? Sounds like she was fishing too.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> My gut says she sent screaming signals that she was open. He sent an "innocent" fishing message and included enough bait to see what would happen. He was probably aware of her reputation?


My 'friend' knew all about my wife and mine's situation.
He knew we were separated and she was seeing OM#1....I'm just thinking his ego thought: _"I can take her off OM#1"_


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Not to sound like a jerk, but if you knew she was talking to your friend for 3 - 4 hours at a time or even didn't bat an eye if the two of them spent time together on their own, then there was a legit chance that you could have nipped this in the bud before it took off.


Why should he have to nip anything? The fact he would have too alone is a huge red flag. Who can keep track of their spouse 24/7? At some point you have to trust that when your not around and an attractive guy hits on your wife they have the will power to brush it off. Obviously, she does not and has no boundries at all. She knew exactly where this was going. She wanted to do it.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Davecarter: you are still married to this woman? 

What is the status of that?


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> Davecarter: you are still married to this woman?
> What is the status of that?


Separated, live apart (still see her because of our kids), going through a divorce now....


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

davecarter said:


> Separated, live apart (still see her because of our kids), going through a divorce now....


Good decision. You're wife seems pretty damn easy.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> Good decision. You're wife seems pretty damn easy.


Probably now, yeah: still pretty but 40 yr old, 2 kids, stay-at-home-Mom.

From 2004 until early this year, she hadn't strayed...but then our marriage is a totally different back-story: fights/violence/arguments.

I can understand, why after 7 years of this, how or why her head was turned by OM#1....but then for it to be turned _again _by OM#2....kind of bemusing to me now.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Both! OM was pushing and the wife was green lighting....in fact, she was putting as many green lights up as possible with the fishing, the flirting and then the asking for his number....she didn't even feel the need to make up a stupid excuse to ask for it! She just asked!


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

davecarter said:


> Probably now, yeah: still pretty but 40 yr old, 2 kids, stay-at-home-Mom.
> 
> From 2004 until early this year, she hadn't strayed...but then our marriage is a totally different back-story: fights/violence/arguments.
> 
> I can understand, why after 7 years of this, how or why her head was turned by OM#1....but then for it to be turned _again _by OM#2....kind of bemusing to me now.


My ex is also pretty, almost 40 and we have two kids as well.

Once they cheat the first time, the guilt is gone. They already did it before so it becomes exponentially easier to do it again. She was probably just getting bored with OM #1. Some cheaters are like addicts and the illicit thrill of a new secret relationship is the fix they crave.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Sounds like two idiot Alphas in a "sword fight" not realizing the prize is just a participation trophy. 

Davecarter you are better off without her. I know you share children so still have to deal with her. She sounds like a piece of work. Sorry.

That "Oh I'm not into the girlie thing...just prefer to get on with it" I bet that a big old lie. That is classic girl code for: I'm pretty and I put effort into it and please flatter me. But I'm super low maintenance and just easygoing...I don't like football but I'll dress up like a Hooters girl and bring you all beer and snacks. 

I might be wrong but that is how I translated that.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> My ex is also pretty, almost 40 and we have two kids as well.
> 
> Once they cheat the first time, the guilt is gone. They already did it before so it becomes exponentially easier to do it again. She was probably just getting bored with OM #1. Some cheaters are like addicts and the illicit thrill of a new secret relationship is the fix they crave.


I think boredom was creeping in....regardless of how 'big' he was or how 'great in bed' he was (yeah, that was his 'reputation').
Guess it only gets a guy so far, huh?



kristin2349 said:


> Sounds like two idiot Alphas in a "sword fight" not realizing the prize is just a participation trophy.
> 
> Davecarter you are better off without her. I know you share children so still have to deal with her. She sounds like a piece of work. Sorry.
> 
> ...


Our marriage has been pretty 'toxic' for the last 5 years to be honest. I still love her a lot...whether that translates as 'in love', I still struggle to deal with.
I always felt she was my 'soul-mate' (yeah, a cliched term, but I can't think of any other)
And that last but is totally her! If I'm putting it blunt and crass, she's a mix of the following: 50% Mum / 30% Trophy-Wife / 20% 'Tom-Boy'.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> Why should he have to nip anything? The fact he would have too alone is a huge red flag. Who can keep track of their spouse 24/7? At some point you have to trust that when your not around and an attractive guy hits on your wife they have the will power to brush it off. Obviously, she does not and has no boundries at all. She knew exactly where this was going. She wanted to do it.


There's trust and there's being a naive patsy. Dave did not realize all the time his wife was spending communicating with his friend, so it's fair to say he was blindsided. However, there are a number of cases like this where the husband is aware that something is not right early on while he sees his wife slowly drifting away and exhibiting poor boundaries. Plus there are those spouses who KNOW something is wrong but they play the "trust" card and the "I don't want to invade his/her privacy" card. Not the case in this situation as dave indicated.


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## sedona (Oct 10, 2013)

I completely agree with what Kristin said. 

The word "intrigued" being bantered around between both of them is cheesy and a fishing word. 

That "I'm not girly" stuff is exactly as Kristin said but could have been replaced with anything as long as it implies "I'm not like other women, I'm different, I'm a unicorn in a sea of donkeys". I have seen similar implications with different phrases - "I don't like drama" is another good one I"ve seen women use to try to appear not like other women. 

Let me put it this way, I'd not like it at all if my spouse was doing this. 

god these cheaters,,,,you know there's really no huge red flag word or statement in all that exchange, but you put it all together and read between the lines and it's clearly fishing. But if you say something they'll be all "what??" and it will be hard to point out anything specific. Ugh...frustrating.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Thanks Sedona (not because you agree) but you explained it and expanded in a way that I didn't.

It is exactly what I've seen so many women do (single, married and those on the prowl).

They don't realize that they will soon prove themselves to be who they really are...So why bother with pretense. It is beyond the basic "best behavior" that is common in dating.


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## CaptainLOTO (Nov 6, 2013)

Just my opinion but this was "greenlighted" before this Facebook conversation took place.

When they first met something took place. Facebook was just the easy way for him to get in touch with her.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

sedona said:


> That "I'm not girly" stuff is exactly as Kristin said but could have been replaced with anything as long as it implies "I'm not like other women, I'm different, I'm a unicorn in a sea of donkeys". I have seen similar implications with different phrases - "I don't like drama" is another good one I"ve seen women use to try to appear not like other women.


Fascinating. I'm a guy so please clarify for my thick skull a tiny bit more.

What EXACTLY is the implication of the girl trying to seperate herself from the pack? That she's cool or discreet? Or that's she's a good choice? A suitable companion who understands a guys needs?


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## rubpy3 (Nov 19, 2013)

Pushing is pointless unless the WW is giving signals for the guy to continue. An affair can't happen unless there are 2 willing participants. I'm a man, occasionally a very horny man, but if an unattractive female comes along, no matter how much she tries seduction.. sorry, I'm simply not attracted. Pushing is pointless when used on an uninterested party.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

davecarter said:


> I think boredom was creeping in....regardless of how 'big' he was or how 'great in bed' he was (yeah, that was his 'reputation').
> Guess it only gets a guy so far, huh?
> 
> 
> ...


and 100% ****. 

and yes I'm being more blunt and crass than I have a right to be. But I think, for your own good, that is how you should think of her. i.e. her character is such that you first met her after having scraped the bottom of your shoe....so to speak. You married down, Dave. She not your equal - your love for her should be well in your rear view mirror, IMO.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

davecarter said:


> Probably now, yeah: still pretty but 40 yr old, 2 kids, stay-at-home-Mom.
> 
> From 2004 until early this year, she hadn't strayed...but then our marriage is a totally different back-story: fights/violence/arguments.
> 
> I can understand, why after 7 years of this, how or why her head was turned by OM#1....but then for it to be turned _again _by OM#2....kind of bemusing to me now.


Without asking your wife, you'll never know. And what is the likelihood of an honest answer?

As somebody mentioned once the barrier to cheating was removed, the next affair was easy to start. It could be that she was after emotional validation. If one OM made her feel good, she was ready to try a second one. Sex and flirting with OM1 whetted her appetite for more.

She is reaching the end of her reproductive life cycle and her liminal brain may be seeking a sperm war. She experiences it as delicious slvttiness. 

All the stuff about being different than other women is just her shouting that she knew what she wanted: sex and excitment.

Is she sorry now? She probably doesn't love you anymore, even she is mad that it all blew up in her face.


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## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

Nikki sent signals first that she wants him. They were just signals but as someone else described them earlier in the thread, they were "screaming signals". Doesn't seem like they were unconscious, it seems like she knew what she was doing. Matt gladly took the bait, gently verified that she was "in need" and it escalated from there.

An experienced woman knows how to send signals. An experienced man knows when a woman is sending screaming signals.



davecarter said:


> Separated, live apart (still see her because of our kids), going through a divorce now....


Good for you. I wish more men who've been betrayed did this and not just because she wanted the divorce.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

davecarter said:


> From 2004 until early this year, she hadn't strayed...but then our marriage is a totally different back-story: fights/violence/arguments.


 Married. Back story. Fights. Violence. Arguments. So if that's what your marriage was, IMO, I wouldn't care if she shacked up with a bus full of guys. I would be happy she's gone and you don't have to put up with it any longer. That's not a marriage. It's a punishment.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> Fascinating. I'm a guy so please clarify for my thick skull a tiny bit more.
> 
> What EXACTLY is the implication of the girl trying to seperate herself from the pack? That she's cool or discreet? Or that's she's a good choice? A suitable companion who understands a guys needs?



Your skull isn't so thick BD! The implication is all of the above, it's verbal fishing in a way. This is usually used by women who want to know what buttons really work for a guy. 

If a guy is into cars, they are too, sports same (but never enough to make you think she'll be uncool enough to cut in on your guy time) She's playing that she is cool and into the same things you/guy is. She is different, far from average, oh so special...

If you hint at or say women are too dramatic (say you mention you hate "reality TV") that would be a clue that you don't like drama. And what guy does? Heck any sane woman doesn't, but they aren't sane.

It is the same thing that people engage in when first dating, on steroids. Best behavior, you are very attentive and interested in everything they say and do.

Now put that on steroids: You mine the data you gather from basic conversation. Store the facts and find ways to use them to emphasize why she is perfect and seems to read your mind/they know you so well. They are the perfect fit.

It's pretty simple (and for the most part effective) those who fall for it are usually eyeballs deep in a relationship or marriage before the mask(s) come off. And it is different than "best behavior" at the start of a relationship. Because that doesn't go to the next level of keeping up a pretense of being someone or something you aren't.

It is hard to explain but I've seen it done so many times among my single friends. I have to laugh when they are in that trap of acting on who they are. My friend who is pretty high maintenance went camping (had a miserable time) pretended it was fun even though the tent leaked and it rained. She is now going again! She is miserable but doesn't feel ready to tell the truth. She is also signed up for an "extreme hike" 25 miles in a day. She smokes like a chimney and is out of shape. She is going to a Trans Siberian Orchestra concert (no offense to fans but it isn't her thing at all)... All while smiling and acting like she's game and having the time of her life.

The above are pretty benign examples. I have a friend who is just beside himself right now because his wife told him she wanted a family. They got married and she wanted to wait, and wait. It is now 9 years later and she is 42 and she is sterile. Won't consider adoption either. I know she never wanted children. He didn't listen.

Sometimes you have to apply the "if it's too good to be true logic to people". Not all women/men are this way. But if they go out of their way to "me too" all of your interests and hobbies. You either won the lotto or a Nigerian "inheritance".


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> Sounds like two idiot Alphas in a "sword fight" not realizing the prize is just a participation trophy.


Well, I've read a _lot _about sexual ranking in animals...and I don't know whether you believe it or not, but OM#1 comes across with more basic 'Alpha' traits given his background...but OM#2, would so fit the bill of 'Sigma' it's unreal.
It's like he almost doesn't give a sh!t about women...or much else really unless it revolves around him: mid-40s, still single, no kids, materialistic, kind of doesn't care if he's with a woman or not but always goes for 'lookers' when he is.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

interesting in that this highlights where the control is and always will be - the wayward putting out

Someone, may be kristin, said in this thread or another the prerogative of the wayward the control to "squash this flat dead in one small sentence" is the be all and end all

Conversation IS an affair primer - it starts there. You can 'look' all you want but the first real interaction that opens doors is with words and that's why a wayward is so responsible for that start.

Going back to the green light thread it still does not absolve posom/w as they predatorily jump on any opportunity knowing the implications but they're not certainly ever in full control 

I just looked at old emails from mvstxw and they are SO the same 

If I knew then what I know now 

....Uurgh so much wasted time


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Daisy10 said:


> Nikki sent signals first that she wants him. They were just signals but as someone else described them earlier in the thread, they were "screaming signals". Doesn't seem like they were unconscious, it seems like she knew what she was doing. Matt gladly took the bait, gently verified that she was "in need" and it escalated from there.
> 
> An experienced woman knows how to send signals. An experienced man knows when a woman is sending screaming signals.
> 
> Good for you. I wish more men who've been betrayed did this and not just because she wanted the divorce.


Even stranger still, my wife told me that, even when OM#2 snagged her, he then seemed to follow a path of indifference toward her during the 2 months they were 'seeing' each other.

Yeah, the 'D' was something we'd both buried our heads in the sand' about and agreed that, OM or not, things were rotten.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

"OM pushing *or* WW green-lighting?"

The "or" here implies mutual exclusivity - that it is one or the other. In your case, and probably in the vast majority, it is both.

A lot of affairs begin rather innocently, with one party having no intentions of cheating and allowing things to progress verbally primarily because they enjoy the attention and the flattery. Once this has gone on for a bit it makes it more difficult for the potential WS to draw clear boundaries. Regardless, at some point flirting crosses the line into overt passes or physical contact and if your spouse doesn't reject at this point then he or she has made a clear choice.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

davecarter said:


> Well, I've read a _lot _about sexual ranking in animals...and I don't know whether you believe it or not, but OM#1 comes across with more basic 'Alpha' traits given his background...but OM#2, would so fit the bill of 'Sigma' it's unreal.
> It's like he almost doesn't give a sh!t about women...or much else really unless it revolves around him: mid-40s, still single, no kids, materialistic, kind of doesn't care if he's with a woman or not but always goes for 'lookers' when he is.


Davecarter these 40 something guys with no kids and some bank are the new "rock stars" of their social groups. 

I've speculated to myself that it is the no kids thing that can really be attractive to others. As they appear "baggage fee". My H is 40's and we are child free and he is a Sr. Exec. That has made him a stud with a sports car among mini van driving men. He is confused about the girls who now go after him girls in their 20's. Sort of in denial that they are hitting on him. But also flattered.

There is this feeling of scarcity of quality partners as you get older and are single and some of the younger women want that instant stability and confidence and success.

I might be completely off base or it is just something I'm seeing in my life.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> No way to tell who initiated from that tidbit.


they both did...he was fishing and she took the bait
there were PLENTY of chances for him to back off and for her to re-establish boundries...they BOTH worked this EA

I really dont think to many ws's are EVER hapless victims...they like the flirting and gleefully skip over ever boundry line there is until it eventually escalates to pa...

sucks because this was a friend...but bottom line is the ws is the one who cheated...om betrayed a friend and screwed a married woman, unforgivable...but in the end, its the ws who cheats


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> It is hard to explain but I've seen it done so many times among my single friends. I have to laugh when they are in that trap of acting on who they are. My friend who is pretty high maintenance went camping (had a miserable time) pretended it was fun even though the tent leaked and it rained. She is now going again! She is miserable but doesn't feel ready to tell the truth. She is also signed up for an "extreme hike" 25 miles in a day. She smokes like a chimney and is out of shape. She is going to a Trans Siberian Orchestra concert (no offense to fans but it isn't her thing at all)... All while smiling and acting like she's game and having the time of her life.


That's funny. My ex's AP from what I'm told is into running, hiking, snow shoeing etc. (probably because he's a broke loser and it's cheap to do those things.) Anyway, he told my Ex he was going to take her and my kids camping... Well my Ex absolutely HATES the outdoors. Won't even go out into our yard for extended periods of time. Yet she was all onboard with going. Pretty pathetic when you have to lie to your AP to keep them around. You would think putting out would be enough.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

missthelove2013 said:


> I really dont think to many ws's are EVER hapless victims...they like the flirting and gleefully skip over ever boundry line there is until it eventually escalates to pa...


I don't think ANY are hapless victims. It's just more lies a cheater spouts.

They are the architects of their own destruction and happily so.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> I don't think ANY are hapless victims. It's just more lies a cheater spouts.
> 
> *They are the architects of their own destruction and happily so*.


quoted for truth!!!


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> Davecarter these 40 something guys with no kids and some bank are the new "rock stars" of their social groups.
> 
> I've speculated to myself that it is the no kids thing that can really be attractive to others. As they appear "baggage fee". My H is 40's and we are child free and he is a Sr. Exec. That has made him a stud with a sports car among mini van driving men. He is confused about the girls who now go after him girls in their 20's. Sort of in denial that they are hitting on him. But also flattered.
> 
> ...


Think you might be right.
But I always thought there was something 'wrong' with guys who get to this decade of their lives with no ex-wives or children in tow? (maybe that's an old-fashioned way of thinking)

Even OM#1 is divorced with 2 kids....but OM#2, I've known him a while and he usually turns up with a new woman every 6 months or so (usually younger or same age and v.attractive).

Given this, and why he took an interest in my wife, I don't know other than to compete with OM#1.
(he definately has an 'ego-issue')


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Headspin said:


> interesting in that this highlights where the control is and always will be - the wayward putting out
> 
> Someone, may be kristin, said in this thread or another the prerogative of the wayward the control to "squash this flat dead in one small sentence" is the be all and end all
> 
> ...


Yes I did say in response to a thread basically excusing a WW for her behavior because she is pretty and nice. As if that is an excuse.

If anything women who are pretty and have always gotten a bit of attention can usually handle it better since it is not new to them. It is really easy to nicely keep a conversation from heading in the wrong direction. Just say you must call or find your spouse. I hold my left hand up to brush a hair away...Or I flat out say something to clearly state I am married and don't play those games. Just not letting someone violate personal space by standing too close does a lot to keep things straight.

I see plenty of unattractive people cheating also, so being above average or pretty is no excuse. If anything they should be used to the flattery based on a fleeting commodity.

I was thinking at Thanksgiving, (warning: it was an odd thought but I had an extra Grey Goose) There were trays of crab stuffed mushroom caps and jumbo shrimp being passed. There were those that were filling their plates like they'd never see food again and I was just kind of grossed out at the tray of food that had been touched by too many people so I kind of lost my appetite. Some people have been passed around far too much to be appealing.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

davecarter said:


> Think you might be right.
> But I always thought there was something 'wrong' with guys who get to this decade of their lives with no ex-wives or children in tow? (maybe that's an old-fashioned way of thinking)
> 
> Even OM#1 is divorced with 2 kids....but OM#2, I've known him a while and he usually turns up with a new woman every 6 months or so (usually younger or same age and v.attractive).
> ...



You are right. My H had been divorced before we met and married. I was fresh out of college when we got married. Due to all sorts of issues we decided kids weren't in the cards. We are still married. But his MLC has opened my eyes to the predators out there (he used to be immune to that) Young women who you'd think want a guy their own age. Instead I think they see a way to leapfrog into a stable life that would probably bore them to tears in a month.

I also work with a man who is 49 and very successful and single (long divorced) with a grown son. He is always on the prowl. Even when he is with someone he is looking for someone better. He has this bottomless pit inside from what I see. He is looking for validation in things. The right car, the right address, the right country club and of course the best looking girl in the room. He is still miserable. He even gets botox and spray tans and lip plumpers, LOL.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> You are right. My H had been divorced before we met and married. I was fresh out of college when we got married. Due to all sorts of issues we decided kids weren't in the cards. We are still married. But his MLC has opened my eyes to the predators out there (he used to be immune to that) Young women who you'd think want a guy their own age. Instead I think they see a way to leapfrog into a stable life that would probably bore them to tears in a month.
> 
> I also work with a man who is 49 and very successful and single (long divorced) with a grown son. He is always on the prowl. Even when he is with someone he is looking for someone better. He has this bottomless pit inside from what I see. He is looking for validation in things. The right car, the right address, the right country club and of course the best looking girl in the room. He is still miserable. He even gets botox and spray tans and lip plumpers, LOL.


I am 45...married (well, just filed for divorce, cheating wife) and I can not believe how many 20 something girls flirt or hit on me...I dont get it...I am in shape and maybe on a good day I am better than average looking, but certainly no where near a george clooney LOL...its GOTTA be about the benjamins...they see me as mature, stable, have a job and a home...

one of the young girls at my daughters daycare (she is 20) told me I would not BELIEVE how many 20 something loser guys she knows...IF they even go to college, when they arent doing homework for their c's (hey, C's get degrees is a common phrase at her school) they are making love to their x-box all night...she asked me if I owned an x-box or any other gaming system, when I said no, she dropped to one knee and asked me JOKINGLY to marry her...to make her point...the other girls stood there, smiling, nodding their heads in understanding


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

missthelove2013 said:


> I am 45...married (well, just filed for divorce, cheating wife) and I can not believe how many 20 something girls flirt or hit on me...I dont get it...I am in shape and maybe on a good day I am better than average looking, but certainly no where near a george clooney LOL...its GOTTA be about the benjamins...they see me as mature, stable, have a job and a home...
> 
> one of the young girls at my daughters daycare (she is 20) told me I would not BELIEVE how many 20 something loser guys she knows...IF they even go to college, when they arent doing homework for their c's (hey, C's get degrees is a common phrase at her school) they are making love to their x-box all night...she asked me if I owned an x-box or any other gaming system, when I said no, she dropped to one knee and asked me JOKINGLY to marry her...to make her point...the other girls stood there, smiling, nodding their heads in understanding


Yep, that is exactly what I am seeing. It is amusing and alarming.

I see so many guys getting a divorce and word spreads like wildfire they are on the market (like a really hot real estate listing with a bidding war). They are usually involved seriously in 3 months engaged in 6 and married within a year. This doesn't apply to everyone but I've seen it far too often.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> You are right. My H had been divorced before we met and married. I was fresh out of college when we got married. Due to all sorts of issues we decided kids weren't in the cards. We are still married. But his MLC has opened my eyes to the predators out there (he used to be immune to that) Young women who you'd think want a guy their own age. Instead I think they see a way to leapfrog into a stable life that would probably bore them to tears in a month.
> 
> I also work with a man who is 49 and very successful and single (long divorced) with a grown son. He is always on the prowl. Even when he is with someone he is looking for someone better. He has this bottomless pit inside from what I see. He is looking for validation in things. The right car, the right address, the right country club and of course the best looking girl in the room. He is still miserable. He even gets botox and spray tans and lip plumpers, LOL.


Here's the thing: I'd rather my wife settle and get into a relationship with OM#1 - regardless of the fact he did all the things that an 'OM' does when in proximity of a wife-with-marriage-issues (i.e. listening, agreeing, sympathizing and eventually making a play for her just to get into her panties), I'd like to think that my kids have someone to look up to as a 'father-figure' who actually has real-time father/husband experience.....than an ego-driven, could-care-less, 'maverick' who I confided in as a 'friend'.

As it stands, I don't know where the land lies with my wife and either OM now: she was upset that she'd cheated on OM#1 because he was a 'nice guy with nice qualities'. 
I asked her...why did she get involved with my 'friend', OM#2 and she admitted OM#1 ticked many boxes 'sexually'...but after 7 months, things were becoming too monotonous...
OM#2 was something like, _"he's physically very attractive, very intelligent and great to talk to...said all the right things and I crossed the line from talking and being 'emotionally' involved to 'physically' involved."_
But also said she could never _"feel 100% comfortable getting into something serious with him because he was always eyeing up women everywhere"_ 



Bemusing....if not a little bit weird looking on from the outside now...:scratchhead:


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## BK23 (Apr 17, 2013)

davecarter said:


> Here's the thing: I'd rather my wife settle and get into a relationship with OM#1 - regardless of the fact he did all the things that an 'OM' does when in proximity of a wife-with-marriage-issues (i.e. listening, agreeing, sympathizing and eventually making a play for her just to get into her panties), I'd like to think that my kids have someone to look up to as a 'father-figure' who actually has real-time father/husband experience.....than an ego-driven, could-care-less, 'maverick' who I confided in as a 'friend'.
> 
> As it stands, I don't know where the land lies with my wife and either OM now: she was upset that she'd cheated on OM#1 because he was a 'nice guy with nice qualities'.
> I asked her...why did she get involved with my 'friend', OM#2 and she admitted OM#1 ticked many boxes 'sexually'...but after 7 months, things were becoming too monotonous...
> ...


Are you a masochist? Why have these conversations. Barf.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

davecarter said:


> Here's the thing: I'd rather my wife settle and get into a relationship with OM#1 - regardless of the fact he did all the things that an 'OM' does when in proximity of a wife-with-marriage-issues (i.e. listening, agreeing, sympathizing and eventually making a play for her just to get into her panties), I'd like to think that my kids have someone to look up to as a 'father-figure' who actually has real-time father/husband experience.....than an ego-driven, could-care-less, 'maverick' who I confided in as a 'friend'.
> 
> As it stands, I don't know where the land lies with my wife and either OM now: she was upset that she'd cheated on OM#1 because he was a 'nice guy with nice qualities'.
> I asked her...why did she get involved with my 'friend', OM#2 and she admitted OM#1 ticked many boxes 'sexually'...but after 7 months, things were becoming too monotonous...
> ...



I can see that, you are being realistic that your children will be exposed to and influenced by OM. It sucks but you can't ignore it because you will be dealing with the fallout so it is best to be prepared in some way.

You are very analytical about it, you seem to have enough distance to make some great observations. It sucks that in the end you don't have any control over what your ex or stbxw does or who she choses. So be a great role model to your children and when you find yourself getting serious you have enough info now to make a better choice for a future partner.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

It really doesn't' matter who started this.

What matters is that no one finished it when the other started.

If person A initiates and person B puts up a boundary then you only have one person to be accountable.

The fact is they both crossed boundaries. It does not matter who started it. They are both equally accountable since they both chose to disrespect boundaries.

That's it, nice and simple. You don't need to get into "feelings" to sort that out.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> Yep, that is exactly what I am seeing. It is amusing and alarming.
> 
> I see so many guys getting a divorce and word spreads like wildfire they are on the market (like a really hot real estate listing with a bidding war). They are usually involved seriously in 3 months engaged in 6 and married within a year. This doesn't apply to everyone but I've seen it far too often.


I caught my wife about a month ago...barely even filed...and the 30 year old at daughters daycare made it known she wants to go out...weve known each other for 3 years...absolutely once someone is "on the market" man its on

I refuse to cheat on my stbx and am waiting until the D is final, but damn its hard when its constantly being thrown at you...worse of all is my stbx is almost begging for it, but im not sure if its for sex or to try and lure me back so I wont...


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> It really doesn't' matter who started this.
> 
> What matters is that no one finished it when the other started.
> 
> ...


I agree Allen BUT, it is not so easy to put feelings aside when you are the BS doing an autopsy on the relationship. What went wrong and why. Not everyone feels the need to, good for them. I wish I could sometimes. It seems pointless to some, for others, it is needed for whatever the reason. It isn't so easy to write the past off and not try to figure it out (after all you've been lied to and deceived) so one of the people who chose to ignore boundaries was your spouse. 

That creates the need for many to dissect and figure out just who this person was they married.

I examine things to see what I can learn. Also, I am fascinated by they "why" the drivers that different people have and where they go and what they seem to justify doing as a result. It has helped me to develop a better armor and makes it easier to realize when someone is toxic or dangerous to me.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

missthelove2013 said:


> I caught my wife about a month ago...barely even filed...and the 30 year old at daughters daycare made it known she wants to go out...weve known each other for 3 years...absolutely once someone is "on the market" man its on
> 
> I refuse to cheat on my stbx and am waiting until the D is final, but damn its hard when its constantly being thrown at you...worse of all is my stbx is almost begging for it, but im not sure if its for sex or to try and lure me back so I wont...



So you are now the "forgotten bone" you've been neglected and ignored while she had lots of other choices . Now women are noticing you there neglected and you look really good to them. They are circling moving in and your stbxw is going Alpha thinking "wait that is mine"...She is going to pull out all the stops to lure you back I'm sure. 

She gave up her right to "first choice". Sucks to be her.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> I agree Allen BUT, it is not so easy to put feelings aside when you are the BS doing an autopsy on the relationship. What went wrong and why. Not everyone feels the need to, good for them. I wish I could sometimes. It seems pointless to some, for others, it is needed for whatever the reason. It isn't so easy to write the past off and not try to figure it out (after all you've been lied to and deceived) so one of the people who chose to ignore boundaries was your spouse.
> 
> That creates the need for many to dissect and figure out just who this person was they married.
> 
> I examine things to see what I can learn. Also, I am fascinated by they "why" the drivers that different people have and where they go and what they seem to justify doing as a result. It has helped me to develop a better armor and makes it easier to realize when someone is toxic or dangerous to me.


OM pushing or WW green-lighting?

That's the topic.

And the fact is they are both doing these things. The "or" presumes it's exclusive. As if it can only be one person being disrespectful.

The fact is just because a third party disrespects a missing spouse by hitting on the present and accounted for spouse does not mean it's all OK now since the third party started it.

The fact is, just because a wayward disrespects their spouse does not mean it's all OK for a third party either.

When someone green lights disrespect, whomever they are, the adult response is to EXIT the conversation to maintain respect for the person that's NOT there to defend themselves.

AP does not get a free pass even if the married person starts things, and visa versa.

Just because someone else initiates disrespect and crosses boundaries does not give you a free pass! You are just as accountable as the person that initated the boundary crossing. This "who started it" crap is just smoke and mirrors to avoid accountability.

_When someone else starts something inappropriate your responsibility as an adult is to finish it.
_
As far as "why" these people do things.. I find exploring that takes away from the solution rather than adding to it.

It is far too easy to get into "feelings" and overlook the disrespect going on.

This is how betrayed spouses get manipulated, by the conversation getting too damn complicated so they can't think straight.

It's cheating. Even a third party hitting on your faithful wife is cheating. That third party is disrespecting you and they ought to be dealt with.

The idea that spouses just have to steel themselves to all these tempting offers surrounding them while the third party can just tempt with impunity is ridiculous.

Single people need to leave married people alone, both of them. The one that's there and the one that's not.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

BK23 said:


> Are you a masochist? Why have these conversations. Barf.


See Kirsten's post, above.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

missthelove2013 said:


> I caught my wife about a month ago...barely even filed...and the 30 year old at daughters daycare made it known she wants to go out...weve known each other for 3 years...absolutely once someone is "on the market" man its on
> 
> I refuse to cheat on my stbx and am waiting until the D is final, but damn its hard when its constantly being thrown at you...worse of all is my stbx is almost begging for it, but im not sure if its for sex or to try and lure me back so I wont...


If you are divorcing what the heck go out with the 30 yr old.

Make it casual and take it slow.
Alittle ego boost never killed anyoneI don't think


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

tom67 said:


> If you are divorcing what the heck go out with the 30 yr old.
> 
> Make it casual and take it slow.
> Alittle ego boost never killed anyoneI don't think


He wants to have some self respect and I agree wtih him.

Taking it casual and slow does not make this any more respectable.

And yes, an "ego boost" does destroy families and households. That's the same rationale people use to have affairs. Take it casual and slow, feed your ego... That's the exact same logic...

You can eye roll if you want, but I applaud this man for maintaining respectability in light of some ridiculous temptations to do otherwise.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> OM pushing or WW green-lighting?
> 
> That's the topic.
> 
> ...



Allen I totally agree with your logic. I am not giving a pass to any AP. 

That said, it can be really difficult for some of us *I'm not going to speak for all females* but for me sometimes when I get thinking about things it is hard to remove emotion (and yes my issues are still fresh). So I know that will change. What won't is, there isn't a ton I can do to the OW, you can go exposure, revenge...Some are effective others can blow up in your face. They will move on and if you are in R you are dealing with the WS and you need to work through the problems and issues with them. 

For me the AP is just as guilty and had no business in my marriage. But using "Castle Doctrine" and doing what I'd like would end up hurting me. People would point out the obvious "she was invited" not trespassing. So she gets no pass from me. She was dealt with in an appropriate way, actually logical given the circumstances.

My emotions override logic at times. But I never have given a pass to the OW. I have seen many blame the OM/OW much more than their spouse. The logic applied is that if you are in R you need to preserve some love for your wayward.

Either way this thread seems to be provoking all sorts of heated discussion. It is always good to read the perspective of others.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> It's cheating. Even a third party hitting on your faithful wife is cheating. That third party is disrespecting you and they ought to be dealt with.
> 
> *The idea that spouses just have to steel themselves to all these tempting offers surrounding them while the third party can just tempt with impunity is ridiculous.*
> 
> Single people need to leave married people alone, both of them. The one that's there and the one that's not.


But this IS the reality. There is no law against making passes at married people. If you think there is, feel free to file a report with local law enforcement and see how that goes for you. In the real world not everyone respects or practices either marriage or monogamy. I agree with you that making a pass at someone you know is married is unethical, but in the world we live in either your spouse rejects such advances or you get to deal with infidelity.


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## sedona (Oct 10, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> Fascinating. I'm a guy so please clarify for my thick skull a tiny bit more.
> 
> What EXACTLY is the implication of the girl trying to seperate herself from the pack? That she's cool or discreet? Or that's she's a good choice? A suitable companion who understands a guys needs?



It's an attempt to get you to laser focus on her because there is noooobody else like her. But not in the usual way of exaggerating her own qualities. It's more like tearing down other women. Take a statement like this and view it turned backwards, because this is what it means:
"I'm not a girly girl/dramatic/fat/etc" = "and any woman who is, is ______ (insert negative adjective here). And surely you aren't the type of loser attracted to those women? Are you?"


It's an attempt to make you feel that if you are attracted to whatever she is NOT, makes you an idiot. 

It also means she is usually threatened by women who possess the same qualities she claims to NOT be. IE: girly girl (feminine). Dramatic (passionate/emotional). Fat (voluptuous/curvy). 

And I would bet my fuzzy slippers has very few _true_ female friends. 

I don't know if I explained it right, it's kind of tricky. But some of us females pick up on it from other females right away.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> He wants to have some self respect and I agree wtih him.
> 
> Taking it casual and slow does not make any more respectable.
> 
> ...


Uh Allen his wife already destroyed the family or did you read over that part. Geez it's over if he wants to wait I agree that's up to him lighten up for God's sake.


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## sedona (Oct 10, 2013)

On the topic: of course the AP should be as blamed. I will not dissect it. I will not compare it. It is that way. 

If you cause hurt, then you are responsible for the hurt you cause, regardless of whether or not your accomplice had a stronger responsibility to your victim. Period.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

amr1977 said:


> But this IS the reality. There is no law against making passes at married people. If you think there is, feel free to file a report with local law enforcement and see how that goes for you. In the real world not everyone respects or practices either marriage or monogamy. I agree with you that making a pass at someone you know is married is unethical, but in the world we live in either your spouse rejects such advances or you get to deal with infidelity.


Don't be so quick to denounce this possibility In mine and about 6-7 other states there is a law against making that pass. It is considered criminal conversation, and if it is followed through with it can turn into alienation of affection and ultimately adultery, all of which are against the law in my state (now getting the police to actually pursue it is another thing, as in my sate they drag their feet on anything they don't agree with or see frivolous, and it shouldn't be their choice yet it is).


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Don't be so quick to denounce this possibility In mine and about 6-7 other states there is a law against making that pass. It is considered criminal conversation, and if it is followed through with it can turn into alienation of affection and ultimately adultery, all of which are against the law in my state (now getting the police to actually pursue it is another thing, as in my sate they drag their feet on anything they don't agree with or see frivolous, and it shouldn't be their choice yet it is).


Illinois is still one of those states that still has alienation of affection from what I remember.

In what states can Alienation of Affection lawsuits still be filed


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"But I always thought there was something 'wrong' with guys who get to this decade of their lives with no ex-wives or children in tow? (maybe that's an old-fashioned way of thinking)

Even OM#1 is divorced with 2 kids....but OM#2, I've known him a while and he usually turns up with a new woman every 6 months or so (usually younger or same age and v.attractive).

Given this, and why he took an interest in my wife, I don't know other than to compete with OM#1.
(he definately has an 'ego-issue')"

OP,

I'm a guy in his 40's with no kids (never really wanted them) or ex's.

I don't consider myself weird. Maybe a little too picky about serious partners, but I'm very comfortable in my own skin...I don't NEED anyone else to feel happy and complete in life.

It would be nice to share the fun times with someone, but I'll be d***ed if I ever accept a woman again (had a cheating serious exgf) who displays some of the s****y behaviors and attitudes many of the WW's on these boards display.

But, all that aside, I think the issue with your former POS 'friend' is that he is just a tool, plain and simple. 

It has nothing to do with his marital status or lack of kids. He'd be the same a**hole even if he did have them.

I would never, under any circumstances or for any reason, F over a friend (or even a total stranger for that matter) the way this pile of filth did, despite the fact that an outside observer might say we have similar living situations in life.

Sorry, I have morals and a sense of personal honor and integrity.

In fact, its probably a karmic blessing to the world that such a scumbag doesn't have SO's and children in the world that he has turned into dysfunctional human beings with his crappy behavior.

Your WW was just stupid enough to fall for the bs of a total POS. That's all on her.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> Don't be so quick to denounce this possibility In mine and about 6-7 other states there is a law against making that pass. It is considered criminal conversation, and if it is followed through with it can turn into alienation of affection and ultimately adultery, all of which are against the law in my state (now getting the police to actually pursue it is another thing, as in my sate they drag their feet on anything they don't agree with or see frivolous, and it shouldn't be their choice yet it is).


Like I said, file the report, get an AP arrested and then I will acknowledge this as a real thing. There are a lot of laws "on the books" which might as well not be there.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> What won't is, there isn't a ton I can do to the OW, you can go exposure, revenge...Some are effective others can blow up in your face. They will move on and if you are in R you are dealing with the WS and you need to work through the problems and issues with them.


A lot of people dump to this. While it's a natural leap, it con-volutes the logic. These are two separate discussions : 

a. is the OP accountable in any way for your spouse's infidelity?
b. what can be done about a predator OP?

Blending these two discussions together creates a lot of confusion. There is merit to both discussions. While one is a question of good manners, ethics, good behavior, the second is a practical question, a question of application.



kristin2349 said:


> For me the AP is just as guilty and had no business in my marriage. But using "Castle Doctrine" and doing what I'd like would end up hurting me. People would point out the obvious "she was invited" not trespassing. So she gets no pass from me. She was dealt with in an appropriate way, actually logical given the circumstances.


I dont' buy the "she was invited argument" at all. That's an excuse. The "she was invited argument" is just a smoke and mirrors version of the childhood argument "he started it".

It really does not matter who started it. What matters is that no one finished it. Children misbehave, adults halt misbehavior. If the behavior kept up and went into an affair, there were no adults present.



kristin2349 said:


> My emotions override logic at times. But I never have given a pass to the OW. I have seen many blame the OM/OW much more than their spouse. The logic applied is that if you are in R you need to preserve some love for your wayward.


You need to work to find some if you intend to reconcile yes. I don't think it means you turn your head away where your spouse was in the wrong, but I do think that couples in reconciliation need to take a detailed look at the situation in order to access accountability.

If your spouse just walks out then that may not be as necessary, other than for your own peace of mind.



kristin2349 said:


> Either way this thread seems to be provoking all sorts of heated discussion. It is always good to read the perspective of others.


I have heard most of these arguments before... many many times.. and they don't fly with me. I have heard "it takes two to tango" so many times I want to throw up. It's not a dance, its' an affair.

It may take two to tango, but it only takes one person to disrespect someone behind their back. It doesn't matter if the OP is hitting on your spouse, or just trash talking you - you have two good choices, and one bad one : 

a. walk away from destructive commentary about your spouse or your marriage or their spouse or their marriage
b. speak up and defend your spouse or your marriage or their spouse or their marriage, no matter what goes on between the couple in private - present a united front as a means to resolution

c. encourage the criticism and disrespect to continue

These choices apply to OP or Wayward both. A and B are both acceptable, but C is not in my opinion.

whomever chooses C is accountable for that choice, just as accountable as the person that started it.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

amr1977 said:


> But this IS the reality. There is no law against making passes at married people. If you think there is, feel free to file a report with local law enforcement and see how that goes for you. In the real world not everyone respects or practices either marriage or monogamy. I agree with you that making a pass at someone you know is married is unethical, but in the world we live in either your spouse rejects such advances or you get to deal with infidelity.


First, yes there are laws in some states.

Second, what is good manners and adult-like conduct is a discussion of merit on it's own. There need not be any law applied there.

Heck cursing in front of children isnt' illegal, but I most certainly wouldn't do that.


Blending and merging discussions does not help them arrive at conclusion.

In the real world there are things you can do if someone is hitting on your wife, you don't have to immediately get the police involved.

Again, that's a separate discussion from who is accountable which again is the subject of this thread.

a. who is accountable?
b. what can be done about it?

These are separate discussions. You seem to think that because you cant' come up with anything for B that A ought to be the wayward in full and 100%.

Sorry, I don't accept that.

If my wife leaves our house unlocked and someone burglarizes my home I am not going to blast her for the full gamut of damage. She didn't choose to burglarize the house. I will have a heart to heart with her about leaving the door unlocked and the rest I will take to the burglar where it belongs.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

sedona said:


> On the topic: of course the AP should be as blamed. I will not dissect it. I will not compare it. It is that way.
> 
> If you cause hurt, then you are responsible for the hurt you cause, regardless of whether or not your accomplice had a stronger responsibility to your victim. Period.


Or whether or not they can be confronted/arrested/stopped.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> Don't be so quick to denounce this possibility In mine and about 6-7 other states there is a law against making that pass. It is considered criminal conversation, and if it is followed through with it can turn into alienation of affection and ultimately adultery, all of which are against the law in my state (now getting the police to actually pursue it is another thing, as in my sate they drag their feet on anything they don't agree with or see frivolous, and it shouldn't be their choice yet it is).


Thank you, I was hoping someone else would bring this up.

Far too many people take this "well, there's nothing you can do about OP, so give them a free pass and just vilify your spouse" position. That drives me nuts.

There are things you can do, which ought to be the subject of it's own thread.

People just assume that because they can't come up with any ideas, that the OP gets a free pass and the WS ought to get hit from both ends.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

amr1977 said:


> Like I said, file the report, get an AP arrested and then I will acknowledge this as a real thing. There are a lot of laws "on the books" which might as well not be there.


So you give the AP a free pass because the law won't support you?

That seems to be your logic : 

_I can't have the OP thrown in jail, so I am going to make my WS accountable for both her misbehavior and his misbehavior.
_


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

davecarter said:


> Here's the thing: I'd rather my wife settle and get into a relationship with OM#1 - regardless of the fact he did all the things that an 'OM' does when in proximity of a wife-with-marriage-issues (i.e. listening, agreeing, sympathizing and eventually making a play for her just to get into her panties), *I'd like to think that my kids have someone to look up to as a 'father-figure' who actually has real-time father/husband experience*.....than an ego-driven, could-care-less, 'maverick' who I confided in as a 'friend'.
> 
> As it stands, I don't know where the land lies with my wife and either OM now: *she was upset that she'd cheated on OM#1 *because he was a 'nice guy with nice qualities'.
> I asked her...why did she get involved with my 'friend', OM#2 and she admitted OM#1 ticked many boxes 'sexually'...but after 7 months, things were becoming too monotonous...
> ...



OP:
your (soon to be) xW sounds like she pretty much lacks any measure of substance or maturity; such a 'lightweight' as a human being I'm surprised she hasn't just floated away! 


other comments
(see my two bolded sentences)

-- I don't think your wife has ever been upset about cheating on anyone. She sounds as 'artificial' as a plastic christmas tree - often able to maintain the _appearance_ of a real human being, but never actually able to be one. does she not make you nauseous??

-- Your kids DO NOT NEED A FATHER FIGURE to look up to. they have a father - you. that is all they need. if it works out that way, you may need to tell OM#1 or OM#2 to keep his f*cking opinions to himself regarding what your kids need or anything else having to do with them, that you'll be doing 100% of the fathering. why would you want your kids to be around either one of them?


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> First, yes there are laws in some states.


Again, show me a jailed AP if you want to assert that these laws exist in any meaningful sense.



Allen_A said:


> In the real world there are things you can do if someone is hitting on your wife, you don't have to immediately get the police involved.


Oh, there are lots of things you can do, however, the question is what is effective. I am a very large, muscular, soldier and most people have absolutely no desire to mess with me. I am sure that I could intimidate most guys into never coming near my wife again if I chose to do so, but what happens if simple intimidation doesn't work? If he calls my bluff I either have to physically engage and risk a jail sentence, a civil suit, my security clearance, and possibly my career... or I back down. See how much this can suck in the real world?

Maybe I have an exposure option as a deterrent if he has an SO. Maybe I have an HR option if they work together. But you can't rely on either of these being the case. 



Allen_A said:


> Again, that's a separate discussion from who is accountable which again is the subject of this thread.
> 
> a. who is accountable?
> b. what can be done about it?
> ...


Actually you seem to be confusing this thread with the one you started. The OP in this thread was simply asking who we felt instigated the affair based upon the conversations he posted. So, strictly speaking, all the posts discussing hypotheticals and broad issues of accountability are sidetracks.




Allen_A said:


> Sorry, I don't accept that.
> 
> If my wife leaves our house unlocked and someone burglarizes my home I am not going to blast her for the full gamut of damage. She didn't choose to burglarize the house. I will have a heart to heart with her about leaving the door unlocked and the rest I will take to the burglar where it belongs.


Good to know your wife's only involvement was leaving her vagina unlocked... I thought maybe she lied to you multiple times about where she was and who she was with, wore some sexy panties, and enjoyed all sorts of naughty times with the OM, but it was a simple case of a bad man taking advantage of an unlocked vagina.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> So you give the AP a free pass because the law won't support you?
> 
> That seems to be your logic :
> 
> ...


I don't give the AP anything. I don't expect people I don't know to respect concepts like marriage and monogamy because I am aware that there are many out there who don't. 

Let's say my spouse walks into a bar and decides she will go home with the first guy to hit on her. Let's say there are 9 guys at the bar who would be perfectly happy to go home with her, but Larry is the first one to make the move.

Now, an hour later, Larry has slept with my wife. What exactly differentiates Larry from the other 8 guys at the bar in an ethical sense?

To me, not a thing. Am I going to seek punitive action against all the men at the bar? At all the men in all the bars who are just like them? At Larry?

Nope.

The only way Larry or any of his pals negatively impact my life is through my spouse's willingness to engage in infidelity. And that is an issue I can and will solve by finding a better spouse.

Someone is either a cheater or they are not. It is binary, guilt or innocence. I am not married to Larry, hell, I may never even know Larry's name. I fix the problem that is sleeping next to me and I fix so it stays fixed.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

amr1977 said:


> I thought maybe she lied to you multiple times about where she was and who she was with, wore some sexy panties, and enjoyed all sorts of naughty times with the OM, but it was a simple case of a bad man taking advantage of an unlocked vagina.


:rofl:


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

amr1977 said:


> Good to know your wife's only involvement was leaving her vagina unlocked... I thought maybe she lied to you multiple times about where she was and who she was with, wore some sexy panties, and enjoyed all sorts of naughty times with the OM, but it was a simple case of a bad man taking advantage of an unlocked vagina.


OK, so your reasoning is I should be bitter and blame the person I can do something about over everything.

Since the other guy has me by the balls, I will just hack on my wife instead and turn a blind eye to the guy that's having sex with her.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

amr1977 said:


> I don't give the AP anything. I don't expect people I don't know to respect concepts like marriage and monogamy because I am aware that there are many out there who don't.
> 
> Let's say my spouse walks into a bar and decides she will go home with the first guy to hit on her. Let's say there are 9 guys at the bar who would be perfectly happy to go home with her, but Larry is the first one to make the move.
> 
> ...


The difference between Larry and the other guys is they didn't have sex with your wife.. Larry did. Don't you get that? lol

Your logic seems to be because anyone could have stolen that car I left unlocked, I should let the guy off the hook that chose to steal my car? lol

_Because others might commit an offense we let all the actual offenders off the hook? lol_

Well, we may as well just open up every jail cell in America then.. these criminals we have locked up are just victims of dumb luck! lol

Criminals aren't accountable for the crimes they commit, they just got caught. lol

You let people that steal your wallet off the hook? there's thousands of other pick pockets out there.. why beat on the one that chose to put his hands in your pocket?

Because he took action against you. The others, while they may have, haven't.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> OK, so your reasoning is I should be bitter and blame the person I can do something about over everything.


The bitterness thing is entirely your invention. I bear no ill will toward either of my wayward exes. I don't want to be in a relationship with them or really have anything to do with them, but I hope they are doing well.

My reasoning is clear and has been explained over and over. We all bear 100% responsibility for our actions. No grey areas, no excuses. If I cheat on my wife I bear full responsibility for that. The person who cheats with me bears full responsibility for sleeping with a married person. That is all.

They each made decisions and how you deal with them is up to you. I choose to sever ties with the person who betrayed me and move on. I choose to not waste my time with the OM.



Allen_A said:


> Since the other guy has me by the balls, I will just hack on my wife instead and turn a blind eye to the guy that's having sex with her.


I just can't relate to this. I never felt for a second that the OM "had me by the balls." He slept with my ex, which revealed to me that my ex did not meet my standards for a wife and I moved on. I took no punitive actions against either of my exes or their OM's. My priority was living a good life with a partner I could love and trust and that meant moving on as efficiently as possible. 

The OM's never warranted my attention to be honest.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Your logic seems to be because anyone could have stolen that car I left unlocked, I should let the guy off the hook that chose to steal my car?


His logic is your wife gave him the keys and told him when to come pick it up. She's as much of a criminal as he is. You should be more upset with the spouse who opened the garage than the petty thief.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> You should be more upset with the spouse who opened the garage than the petty thief.


I don't consider violating another couples marriage petty thievery. I take that much more seriously.

I also don't understand why it follows why I should be more upset with one than the other.

If you have to be more pissed at one than the other, I would be more pissed at the third party. After all, I at least have made mistakes in my marriage so my wife has some argument against me. None of that warrants betraying marriage vows, but i have made mistakes.

The third party I have done absolutely nothing to.

To my mind I should be more pissed at the third party whom has no cause whatsoever to do me harm yet chose to do so anyways.

But maybe that's just me...


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> But maybe that's just me...


You're definitely in the minority if that's your position....

Maybe because one promised to be committed to you forever and the other didn't?

Your wife had no cause to betray you either. I don't care what argument or justification she provides you. So they are both on equal footing. You just keep making excuses for her.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Your logic seems to be because anyone could have stolen that car I left unlocked, I should let the guy off the hook that chose to steal my car? lol


OK, I am going to respectfully suggest that maybe analogies are just not your thing. If our spouses were inanimate objects which we legally owned then this would be spot on.



Allen_A said:


> _Because others might commit an offense we let all the actual offenders off the hook? lol_
> 
> Because he took action against you. The others, while they may have, haven't.


Again, you miss the point entirely. Two people having consensual sex is not theft - nothing has been stolen from me. My wife is not my property, she can choose to have sex with whomever she likes. Of course, adult decisions have consequences, but no need to go further.

I really don't care that Larry was willing to sleep with my wife. I care that my wife was willing to sleep with Larry. This is why the identity of Larry is not particularly important to me. It has nothing to do with the number of Larry's out there and everything to do with my wife's willingness to forsake her vows for one of them. 

Clearly you need to fixate on your wife's Larry to facilitate your ability to tolerate your wife in R. You admitted as much in the other thread:



Allen_A said:


> if you want to reconcile with your spouse, you need to hold OP accountable to a significant degree... probably more accountable than your spouse.
> 
> This may not be factually accurate, but that's the best to way to get to point B in repairing the mess


You need to rationalize away some of your wife's guilt because otherwise R would be more difficult or impossible. That is fine. But why waste post after post trying to prove that it is somehow objectively the right way to view an affair? Just say you blame the AP because that is what you need to do and be done with it.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> I don't consider violating another couples marriage petty thievery. I take that much more seriously.
> 
> I also don't understand why it follows why I should be more upset with one than the other.


If my wife takes out a credit card in my name and runs up a bunch of debt I feel both robbed and *betrayed*. If some douche on the internet steals my info and does the same thing I just feel robbed.

Your spouse owes you better treatment than a stranger and it hurts more when they violate your trust. This is how most people view affairs. 

With your statement in the other thread that you would feel the same about your spouse burning down your home as a stranger doing it I think you are either wired very strangely relative to normal human psychology or you have so deeply internalized your need to view your wife as less than fully culpable for her actions that you can't see reality.




Allen_A said:


> *If you have to be more pissed at one than the other, I would be more pissed at the third party. After all, I at least have made mistakes in my marriage so my wife has some argument against me.* None of that warrants betraying marriage vows, but i have made mistakes.


So, we can partially excuse your wife's behavior because of issues in your marriage? Why doesn't the OM get the same consideration? Maybe he was going through a rough time in his own marriage and your wife preyed upon him at his weakest point.

You really aren't seeing the blatant lack of critical thinking and moral equivalence here? 



Allen_A said:


> The third party I have done absolutely nothing to.
> 
> To my mind I should be more pissed at the third party whom has no cause whatsoever to do me harm yet chose to do so anyways.
> 
> But maybe that's just me...


It isn't just you. Some people have had to deal with AP's who did some truly horrible stuff even after the affair was exposed and the WS broke things off.

But yes, attributing most of the blame to the AP in a typical affair is a very minority position. Most place the lion's share on the WS and many view it as 50/50.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

All I can say on this WSO vs POS AP debate is this.

F them both. She gets kicked to the curb coldly and immediately. This is the course I took with my cheating exgf. I would not handle a cheating W/gf any different today.

But, in addition, woe to the POS who dared to F with my life when I had done him no wrong. 

I will crush his life in any way I possibly can, and I will not rest until that scummy POS has enough regrets about inserting himself into my life to last him until the day he dies.

I do not lay down and passively accept s****y actions towards myself from anybody or for any reason. 

He will have his life ruined for stepping in and messing up mine.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> All I can say on this WSO vs POS AP debate is this.
> 
> F them both. She gets kicked to the curb coldly and immediately. This is the course I took with my cheating exgf. I would not handle a cheating W/gf any different today.
> 
> ...


I can't like this enough.:iagree::iagree::iagree:
I just can't add anything else.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> All I can say on this WSO vs POS AP debate is this.
> 
> F them both. She gets kicked to the curb coldly and immediately. This is the course I took with my cheating exgf. I would not handle a cheating W/gf any different today.
> 
> ...


Thing is, who do I feel most anger and hurt toward?
a) OM#1: for hitting on, 'enabling' my wife to leave me and start (actually, continue) fcuking her?
b) OM#2: for betraying my confidence and hitting on my wife following the 'slow-down' of a), above
c) Wife, for both a) and b)?


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> It really doesn't' matter who started this.
> 
> What matters is that no one finished it when the other started.
> 
> ...


The pain of being betrayed leads many BS's to seek answers long after the answers have all been exhausted. There is still some new angle, some reflection - and my God the triggers are everywhere. Perhaps the most insidious aspect of the ultimate betrayal is the endless scrutiny and reliving - a dance that even the strongest BS cannot resist from time to time.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> But maybe that's just me...


I think it is.:scratchhead:


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

davecarter said:


> Thing is, who do I feel most anger and hurt toward?
> a) OM#1: for hitting on, 'enabling' my wife to leave me and start (actually, continue) fcuking her?
> b) OM#2: for betraying my confidence and hitting on my wife following the 'slow-down' of a), above
> c) Wife, for both a) and b)?


Wife FULL STOP

POSOM/POSOW do NOT enable - they are enable by the cheating wayward spouse 

They are 'invited in' and the moment they 'agree' to that to taje her up on the 'offer', they are then sharing that responsibility that culpability but frankly if she does not' invite' 'open the doors' nobody is coming in anywhere !

this tbh all seems pretty obvious to me at any rate


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> All I can say on this WSO vs POS AP debate is this.
> 
> F them both. She gets kicked to the curb coldly and immediately. This is the course I took with my cheating exgf. I would not handle a cheating W/gf any different today.
> 
> ...


I can most certainly accept this.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> But, in addition, woe to the POS who dared to F with my life when I had done him no wrong.
> 
> I will crush his life in any way I possibly can, and I will not rest until that scummy POS has enough regrets about inserting himself into my life to last him until the day he dies.
> 
> ...


How?
What can you actually do? I've read on here many times that more often ythan not, the OM gets away.

Does 'CheaterVille' actually _do _anything?
Would exposing him to his workplace / employers make any difference?
Would you really confront an OM you didn't know anything about? This is a gamble: he either calls your bluff and/or, at worst case scenario, drops you physically
_(this last one was what my wife humiliatingly implied would happen to me if I attempted any 'confronting')_


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

davecarter said:


> How?
> What can you actually do? I've read on here many times that more often ythan not, the OM gets away.
> 
> Does 'CheaterVille' actually _do _anything?
> ...


When you confront you take some back up with you! lol


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## Aerith (May 17, 2013)

amr1977 said:


> Like I said, file the report, get an AP arrested and then I will acknowledge this as a real thing. There are a lot of laws "on the books" which might as well not be there.


How you can get AP arrested on the ground of Criminal Conversation and Alienation of Affection? It's civil law - so, in the best case you can have a civil case in a civil court...
OK, just realised that I need to correct myself - if we are talking about Western countries...
In some countries you can get AP and your WS arrested and punished... BTW, can refer to the movie The Stoning of Soraya M.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Aerith said:


> How you can get AP arrested on the ground of Criminal Conversation and Alienation of Affection? It's civil law - so, in the best case you can have a civil case in a civil court...
> OK, just realised that I need to correct myself - if we are talking about Western countries...
> In some countries you can get AP and your WS arrested and punished... BTW, can refer to the movie The Stoning of Soraya M.


Clearly we are talking about Western countries here, but I will amend my previous statement to "get them arrested and/or file a successful civil suit" against someone who makes a pass at your spouse. Can anyone produce an example of actually using these laws against an AP in modern times?

If not, then I think we can safely say that they are irrelevant.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> I will crush his life in any way I possibly can, and I will not rest until that scummy POS has enough regrets about inserting himself into my life to last him until the day he dies.
> 
> I do not lay down and passively accept s****y actions towards myself from anybody or for any reason.
> 
> He will have his life ruined for stepping in and messing up mine.


Most people are simply not going to have a lot of legal recourse to ruin an AP's life. I find the number of people willing to risk the legal consequences of an assault charge in the real world are rather small.

I could have probably destroyed my first ex's AP with one hand in my pocket. If I had chosen to do that I would likely have an assault charge on my record and I probably wouldn't have much of a career right now. That decision could have cost me as much as a million dollars in lifetime earning potential. Is beating an AP really worth that? If you can accept the consequences or are confident you could get away with it, go for it.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

A quick google search turned up this: Wife Sues "Other Woman," Awarded $9M - CBS News

She is from NC where it is still illegal and the woman was awarded $9M in the lawsuit. There are several other like this that happen in NC and several other states that still allow it. 

The reason is that there is no defense to the charge other than it being false. If there is even the slightest bit of truth to support it, it is an automatic win fore the plaintiff in the state of NC (talked to my lawyer about this). The only caveat, according to my lawyer, is that there is no guarantee of an award great enough to cover the cost to sue (as juries and judges become more and more "progressive" in their attitudes). Therefor the average case starts out at about $10K to pursue (quoted fees from several lawyers) as they lawyer wants to make sure they get paid. Lots of the suits are open and shut cases with the damages being awarded in differing ranges, some as low as $1. The reason that one would pursue, as per the lawyer, is either the AP was rich and there's a good chance of money, or mainly to ruin the AP's name as it would now be a court record that they are a convicted Adulterer due to their actions.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> When you confront you take some back up with you! lol


So, the OM goes to hospital...an you (and whomever) go to jail: still doesn't work! :scratchhead:


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> A quick google search turned up this: Wife Sues "Other Woman," Awarded $9M - CBS News


I stand corrected. This is a real thing in 7 states in the U.S. according to the article.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Wife FULL STOP
> 
> POSOM/POSOW do NOT enable - they are enable by the cheating wayward spouse
> 
> ...


They invite themselves in as well. 

"Mind if I come in?"

"Not at all"

Sometimes the WS needs a little coaxing, encouragement, domination etc.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You haven't even put him on cheaterville and sent the link to his friends, family and work. You're awfully nice to people that walk all over you.


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