# HD and LD marriage: How to avoid, how to enjoy it and how to get out



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Dear distinguished TAM Forum members,

I made this thread to discuss about three important topics about HD and LD Marriage.

*First: How to avoid HD and LD marriage *. I believe many active Forum members here has emphasized the massive importance of sexual compatibilities of married couple. HD and LD marriage is to be avoided, that's the general consensus. Therefore, let's discuss how to avoid such marriage to take place at the first place. How HD and LD could discover the level of their own drives and be honest about it to their partner before marriage.

In regards to Bait and Switch, which is often brought up in discussions involving HD and LD marriage, a definition is needed. I humbly suggest that Mr. Thundarr sums it up very well in his definition of Bait and Switch below, which I'd like to use:



> Bait and switch gets mixed up with plenty of other things
> 
> Switch: - changing who you are to snag a partner.
> Expectations: - differing expectations where man and woman have a differing picture of marriage.
> ...


*Second: If, for whatever reason, the HD and LD marriage already happened, how both sides could make an effort to enjoy the marriage*? Certainly this is not easy, as many in this forum could testify from their own unpleasantly sad personal experiences. But there are people who think that this is _workable_ and _achievable_. We'd like to hear from these people, and what advice they offer to help balance HD needs of sex with LD's need of independence.

*Third: How to terminate HD and LD marriage on grounds of sexual incompatibility? *We need people with legal backgrounds to describe the process on how HD partner could ask for a divorce (or even nullification) of the marriage on grounds of LD chronic refusal of sex, or LD partner could ask for a divorce on grounds of HD chronic disrespect for LD's rights to his/her own body. We also need people with backgrounds in psychology or counselling to describe what should be done by HD and LD people to get over their unpleasant marriage experience and start a new life.

Finally, let me put down some clarifications to ensure a good discussion.

(1) This is a _GENERAL_ discussion about sex in marriage, not to solve a specific problem experienced by a specific person/couple. Do not feel too personal about this particular thread. I find that some people here got hurt so badly by their experiences, that they see all men as their bad husbands/all women as their bad wives. I assure these people that this thread is generally speaking, and not about _them_.

(2) Try to have a balanced perspective. Many distinguished members here are very balanced and equal, they uphold the rights of LD persons to their own body, but also consider chronic rejection by LD as very disrespectful and unhealthy for the marriage. This kind balanced perspective is what we'd like to have in this thread.

Mrs. Lyris, Mr. Jaquen, Mr. Kingsfan, Mr. Thundarr, Mrs. Created2Write, Miss LB, Mr. Cletus, Mrs. EleGirl, Mrs. SimplyAmorous, and other good Forum members whom are active in LD vs HD discussions, I'd love to hear your contributions!

Let the discussions begin!

Additional:

These threads below contains many good reading materials from previous debates

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/65847-you-guys-call-switch-but-some-just-life.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...ave-all-so-why-not-accept-what-good-enuf.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/66138-sexless-marriage-boomerang.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/66127-staying-sexless-marriage.html

This thread below is particularly important to consider, because it shows that health problems are not unsurmountable barrier to achieve intimacy and orgasm.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/65788-severe-vaginal-atrophy.html#post1381478


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> ........
> 
> *Third: How to terminate HD and LD marriage on grounds of sexual incompatibility? *We need people with legal backgrounds to describe the process on how HD partner could ask for a divorce (or even nullification) of the marriage on grounds of LD chronic refusal of sex, or LD partner could ask for a divorce on grounds of HD chronic disrespect for LD's rights to his/her own body. We also need people with backgrounds in psychology or counselling to describe what should be done by HD and LD people to get over their unpleasant marriage experience and start a new life.
> 
> .........


In Australia there is no fault divorce meaning we do not have to prove a reason to get divorced.

As for the psychological fall out, this is a mine field. All I want to say right now is to the LD people that think it is OK to marry a HD person regardless of the massive divide between you..... you may think all wiil be OK but the future damage you will potentially be doing to the person you allegedly love is enormous.

Put some thought into how selfish it is to marry someone that has a vastly different drive to you.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mrs. Holland, thank you for being the first to respond!



Holland said:


> In Australia there is no fault divorce meaning we do not have to prove a reason to get divorced.


Not even "irreconciliable differences"?



> As for the psychological fall out, this is a mine field. All I want to say right now is to the LD people that think it is OK to marry a HD person regardless of the massive divide between you..... you may think all wiil be OK but the future damage you will potentially be doing to the person you allegedly love is enormous.
> 
> *Put some thought into how selfish it is to marry someone that has a vastly different drive to you*.


But, but, some people here in TAM are willing to debate over and over that 'sex is not a need in marriage'.. whatever that means..


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

> Not even "irreconciliable differences"?


 No we do not have to cite a reason. One side can protest but they would need good reason for the divorce not to be granted.
What we do need to show is that any children from the marriage are being well cared for and that both parents have access to the children.



> But, but, some people here in TAM are willing to debate over and over that 'sex is not a need in marriage'.. whatever that means..


 yes and that debate will keep going around in circles without resolve. What I say is from first hand experience, if people choose to gloss over that then so be it.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Holland said:


> No we do not have to cite a reason. One side can protest but they would need good reason for the divorce not to be granted.


In context of HD vs LD, how does this work in your Australian Court? Like this?

LD: "..Your Honor, my client wish to be divorced from her husband, because he wants sex weekly, while she is satisfied with sex once every two or three months. She feels like her rights are being violated, and that she equates to being treated like a sex slave, if he ask for sex while she is not in the mood..Furthermore, she thinks he cannot make her attracted to him anymore, so it's not her fault that she does not want sex with him.."


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

In Australia, there is a legal separation period of one year, and then either party can file for divorce. It doesn't have to go to court, and most don't. Lawyers draw up agreements relating to financial settlements and entitlements, as well as child support. Spousal support (alimony) is not usually sought or granted. Formal requirements for the care of children can be drawn up, but are not required. 

As for the other questions in your OP, I'll have to think about those for a while.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Lyris said:


> In Australia, there is a legal separation period of one year, and then either party can file for divorce. It doesn't have to go to court, and most don't.


Ah, so your law is a bit simpler. Divorce doesn't have to go to the court, that sounds right. Why must the Government interfere if both sides would rather be separated 



> Lawyers draw up agreements relating to financial settlements and entitlements, as well as child support. Spousal support (alimony) is not usually sought or granted.


No alimony? Does this reduce the incidence of hit-and-run marriage? (marriage with the intention of one side to get a divorce in the future for the purpose of extorting alimony)


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Lyris said:


> In Australia, there is a legal separation period of one year, and then either party can file for divorce. It doesn't have to go to court, and most don't. *Lawyers draw up agreements relating to financial settlements and entitlements, as well as child support.* Spousal support (alimony) is not usually sought or granted. Formal requirements for the care of children can be drawn up, but are not required.
> 
> As for the other questions in your OP, I'll have to think about those for a while.


Well sort of but not 100%

Yes we have a 12 month legal separation first and then we can apply for divorce. It goes to court but only in so much as we have a divorce hearing which is just where the case is read out, the parties details are cited and the questions re: children are asked. The judge then declares a divorce is granted and the paperwork is mailed out in a few weeks.
The hearing takes 5 minutes and there is no need for both parties to attend unless they wish too or are contesting any details.

Many divorces are settled without lawyers, there is no legal requirement to have any documents drawn up by lawyers in regard to settlement or child related issues. You can go this path or just sort it out between you.

We have to attend mediation before any divorce issues can be taken to court and many people will resolve their issues at this point.

Alimony is not granted in Australia, however in rare cases spousal support can be applied for but this is in situations that involve those in the multi millionaire bracket.



> In context of HD vs LD, how does this work in your Australian Court? Like this?
> 
> LD: "..Your Honor, my client wish to be divorced from her husband, because he wants sex weekly, while she is satisfied with sex once every two or three months. She feels like her rights are being violated, and that she equates to being treated like a sex slave, if he ask for sex while she is not in the mood..Furthermore, she thinks he cannot make her attracted to him anymore, so it's not her fault that she does not want sex with him.."


No we do not have to cite a reason so the HD/LD issue would not come up.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> But, but, some people here in TAM are willing to debate over and over that 'sex is not a need in marriage'.. whatever that means..


I guess it would be tough to be the spouse of one of those people, but how much attention should the rest of us pay to _ad hoc_ rationalization?


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## johonmirae (Jan 27, 2013)

Formal requirements for the care of children can be drawn up, but are not required


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> *First: How to avoid HD and LD marriage *. I believe many active Forum members here has emphasized the massive importance of sexual compatibilities of married couple. HD and LD marriage is to be avoided, that's the general consensus. Therefore, let's discuss how to avoid such marriage to take place at the first place. How HD and LD could discover the level of their own drives and be honest about it to their partner before marriage.


*Patience and taking time* is a simple concept but is the biggest bang for the buck. If couples waited to marry until after the new has worn off then patterns of incompatibility like LD/HD would surface. Also, blatent bait and switch becomes obvious after a couple of years.

*A little understanding of expectations.* We assume the other person has the same expectations and needs that we do. It's pretty rare when it pans out that way though. We're left working our butts off to give our partner what they don't really care much about and being pissed about not being appreciated.


*Respecting that love does not conquer all* is vitally important. How many times does incompatibility turn to resentment which eventually overshadows love. This may be the new love mentioned above though.




john_lord_b3 said:


> *Second: If, for whatever reason, the HD and LD marriage already happened, how both sides could make an effort to enjoy the marriage*? Certainly this is not easy, as many in this forum could testify from their own unpleasantly sad personal experiences. But there are people who think that this is _workable_ and _achievable_. We'd like to hear from these people, and what advice they offer to help balance HD needs of sex with LD's need of independence.


Maybe I'm not qualiifed to answer this. I married my first wife out of highschool after dating for three months. We both failed miserably and divorced at seven years with me thinking she was a self centered mean b!tch. Maybe she was but I participated in the disaster. I dated my current wife for seven years and there was no doubt what she and I wanted / needed from each other. We were compatible or at least we settled into a compatible relationship and something that worked before pulling the trigger. We didn't live together during that time either but she stayed at my house every weekend.

Now there are a couple of things I've learned that we just got lucky with. 
1. *Setting boundaries*. In a way we were lucky that I was jaded. 
2. *Learn what the other needs*. We read His Needs/Her Needs recently and realized that we were pretty accurate regarding what the other felt was important. I think most couples start out trying to be good to the other but they just fail while doing the wrong things. Understanding your partner's needs don't mirror our own is eye opening. And repecting that physical intimacy is important to many just like emotional intimacy is for others.
3. *Chronic disrespect, infidelity, emotional abandonment, severe additions, etc change the rules*. They are things that have to be considered marriage detroyers and have to be ultimatums so to speak. If I just couldn't get my wife to stop being demeaning or disrespectful then eventual divorce is the only option. I'm sure I'd try to change the behavior first but not for very long.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> *First: How to avoid HD and LD marriage *.
> 
> *Second: If, for whatever reason, the HD and LD marriage already happened, how both sides could make an effort to enjoy the marriage*?
> 
> *Third: How to terminate HD and LD marriage on grounds of sexual incompatibility? *


Thanks for calling me distinguished. I guess there really is a first time for everything 

Secondly, while I do hope this thread doesn't get personal, it probably will. A) The reason many people are even on this thread is due to being either HD or LD (mostly HD I'd imagine) and B) A lot of the discussion will likely either involve personal stories for an example, or touch home on a personal level.

As for your questions, they are tricky ones. There's no guarantee for the first one, how to avoid a HD/LD marriage. The best you can do is two things: A) Clearly state your expectations in the marriage of both of you (what you are expecting to get and what you are willing to give), and B) have sex. Do both of these well before marriage. Address any concerns you have well before marriage, and discuss any potential roadblocks that could occur during a marriage (children, financial stress, etc.) well before you get married. Don't just expect that sex will work out, or think that someone understands where you are coming from. Make 100% sure by actually telling them.

How to enjoy a LD/HD marriage? I guess that depends on what you consider enjoyment, how far apart the LD/HD divide is, and how open both sides are to working on the issue. If the HD person wants sex 3-4x a week, and the LD person wants sex 2x a month, with the LD person also having the mindset that if the HD person doesn't like it they can "go relieve yourself because you have a hand/vibrator", good luck enjoying that.

The key is to ensure you are married to someone whom you can communicate to and to someone who trusts that what you are telling them is the honest truth and not just some attempt to get them into bed, you should be able to work out some level of a compromise. 

How to terminate HD/LD relationship? That almost needs to be done on a case by case scenario. If you are simply dating and not even living together, just say "adios" and walk away, provided you have explained the problem and given enough time to allow for the two of you to work it out. The more assets involved in the relationship, however, the harder it is to seperate over an HD/LD issue. If you have three kids, a house, and are in a financial situation where getting your place would be almost impossible, maybe you choose not to leave at all and instead stay because it's the better option, even if it is a truly bad place to be.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> The reason many people are even on this thread is due to being either HD or LD (mostly HD I'd imagine) and B) A lot of the discussion will likely either involve personal stories for an example, or touch home on a personal level.


I'm not sure if my opinion is naive or if it's objective regarding HD/LD but my wife and are neither so a couple of times weekly suit us both fine. For that matter my ex was happy to get busy 2-3 times weekly up until the end even when she was banging the OM so I may not understand how being shutdown feels but I know how being betrayed, disrespected, minimized, etc feels.

EDIT: Scratch that. I wanted more than 2-3 time weekly with ex and that was a compromise so...


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

In any relationship where one spouse wants more sex than the other, there is a HD person and a LD person. If there is no disparity, then you are both the HD person, or both the LD person, or just neither of them. It's only when there is a divide that the HD/LD factor plays a role.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I will answer in parts.

Question 1: How to avoid HD/LD.

Answer 1: I can only approach this from a "what would I do different today" perspective.

You have to ask. You have to ask some potentially embarrassing and difficult questions of your spouse. How much to you like sex? How important is it to you? Do you masturbate? Fantasize? What do you like? What are your turn-ons and turn-offs? What makes you feel sexy towards your partner? What makes you want to castrate your partner? Do you consider sex to be important to a relationship? How much? How often? Where? When? How? How long...

In other words, it's an impossibly long list of questions that are almost impossible to answer by someone who has never been married in the first place. The chicken and egg problem will drive you crazy.

So I advise everyone, including my own children, to make sure you've explored your potential mate sexually before marriage. I understand that this is a problem for some for various reasons, and all I can say to them is 1) learn about the wide world of sex available to you, through books, movies, friends, any means available and 2) talk to your future spouse openly, frankly, and thoroughly. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER assume that your view of sexuality, even if you have some experience, is universal (not a bad piece of advice for many posting here as well).

And still none of this guarantees an optimal outcome. But you have to actively do SOMETHING!

Then you have to have an honest conversation with yourself based on these two questions: 1) how important is sex TO ME (and be honest - hedging won't work) 2) can I live sexually with this other person who is likely to never change, because that is by far the most likely outcome.

If the answer is no, then you *must* walk away. Do not engage in the fairy tale that it will all "just work out" if you feel misgivings. 

I can answer part 2 much more completely since I failed utterly at part 1 myself.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> But, but, some people here in TAM are willing to debate over and over that 'sex is not a need in marriage'.. whatever that means..


What they mean is that it seems superficial and it's not a need to them and they don't care to consider it valid. 

The following are similarly discounted needs quite often:
- Husband doesn't listen to wife and thinks that's what her girlfiends are for.
- Wife puts on 100lbs after marriage and things he's shallow for being upset.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> What they mean is that it seems superficial and it's not a need to them and they don't care to consider it valid.
> 
> The following are similarly discounted needs quite often:
> - Husband doesn't listen to wife and thinks ths iat's what her girlfiends are for.


well, true. This is also happens quite often in my country, especially in cases of prearranged marriages. The man and wife did not have lots of interaction before the marriage, so there is often a disconnect on what topics they are talking about. Men dislikes wasting time for talking about gossips of everyday life, while wives does not understands the topics the men wishes to discuss about (politics, sciences, etc). So they end up not talking much except for the necessities of life.



> - Wife puts on 100lbs after marriage and things he's shallow for being upset.


eh, but men does get fat too. There is an old saying in my country "why does husbands get fat? They go home, see who's in bed, disappointed and go to the kitchen to look for food"  off course this is joking..


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> *Patience and taking time* is a simple concept but is the biggest bang for the buck. If couples waited to marry until after the new has worn off then patterns of incompatibility like LD/HD would surface. Also, blatent bait and switch becomes obvious after a couple of years.
> 
> *A little understanding of expectations.* We assume the other person has the same expectations and needs that we do. It's pretty rare when it pans out that way though. We're left working our butts off to give our partner what they don't really care much about and being pissed about not being appreciated.
> 
> ...


Great answers, Mr. Thundarr. Neat and organized too! Especially number one, to wait patiently. So you think, this does help in eliminating bait and switch? Do you think that the baiters will be worn out enough if having to wait three years before the bait works?



> Maybe I'm not qualiifed to answer this. I married my first wife out of highschool after dating for three months. We both failed miserably and divorced at seven years with me thinking she was a self centered mean b!tch. Maybe she was but I participated in the disaster. I dated my current wife for seven years and there was no doubt what she and I wanted / needed from each other. We were compatible or at least we settled into a compatible relationship and something that worked before pulling the trigger. We didn't live together during that time either but she stayed at my house every weekend.
> 
> Now there are a couple of things I've learned that we just got lucky with.
> 1. *Setting boundaries*. In a way we were lucky that I was jaded.
> ...


I agree with all points, especially Point 3 is very important. And i think again I must praise you for advising "waiting patiently", because waiting does reveals some of the characters of the partner, right?

Except, in case of prearranged marriages in Asian countries, sometimes waiting is not an option, as the marriages are arranged by the clans. ouch!


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Cletus said:


> So I advise everyone, including my own children, to make sure you've explored your potential mate sexually before marriage. I understand that this is a problem for some for various reasons, and all I can say to them is 1) learn about the wide world of sex available to you, through books, movies, friends, any means available and 2) talk to your future spouse openly, frankly, and thoroughly. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER assume that your view of sexuality, even if you have some experience, is universal (not a bad piece of advice for many posting here as well).
> 
> And still none of this guarantees an optimal outcome. But you have to actively do SOMETHING!


Very good advice Mr. Cletus. Does this means that romance novels, with sexual situations depicted in writing, could also be a good reading material? I mean, these kind of literature got bad rap in my country (due to too-strong religious establishments), but they do serve a purpose, right?

Also, THIS forum should be required reading, right?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Very good advice Mr. Cletus. Does this means that romance novels, with sexual situations depicted in writing, could also be a good reading material? I mean, these kind of literature got bad rap in my country (due to too-strong religious establishments), but they do serve a purpose, right?


Depends on the erotica. 

"50 Shades" and the like do serve a purpose, I think - the same purpose pornography serves for men. Which is mostly to set expectations above reasonable or to use as a fill-in when you can't get a living, breathing human.

There is a best seller on Amazon called (I think) "The Guide to Getting It On" which covers a lot of the freshman and junior varsity level activities that would be a good start for the uninitiated. I would certainly sit down and read every chapter with a prospective spouse if I had the opportunity and the family wouldn't behead me for the insult. 

You'll cull out some of the LD folks like my wife who get squeamish just picking up a book like this.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Thanks for calling me distinguished. I guess there really is a first time for everything
> 
> Secondly, while I do hope this thread doesn't get personal, it probably will. A) The reason many people are even on this thread is due to being either HD or LD (mostly HD I'd imagine) and B) A lot of the discussion will likely either involve personal stories for an example, or touch home on a personal level.


Thank you for coming, and I really appreciate your opinions, knowing that they came from painful personal experiences, which should not be discounted lightly.



> As for your questions, they are tricky ones. There's no guarantee for the first one, how to avoid a HD/LD marriage. The best you can do is two things: A) Clearly state your expectations in the marriage of both of you (what you are expecting to get and what you are willing to give), and B) have sex. Do both of these well before marriage. Address any concerns you have well before marriage, and discuss any potential roadblocks that could occur during a marriage (children, financial stress, etc.) well before you get married. Don't just expect that sex will work out, or think that someone understands where you are coming from. Make 100% sure by actually telling them.


Off course, this will also a huge turn off for many potential partners, but, yea I could see the reasoning. It's just like businesses trying to discuss a merger, we have to get our books and inventories straight before talking about merger. 



> How to enjoy a LD/HD marriage? I guess that depends on what you consider enjoyment, how far apart the LD/HD divide is, and how open both sides are to working on the issue. If the HD person wants sex 3-4x a week, and the LD person wants sex 2x a month, with the LD person also having the mindset that if the HD person doesn't like it they can "go relieve yourself because you have a hand/vibrator", good luck enjoying that.


Yea, not likely to be enjoyable, I could see the point here.



> The key is to ensure you are married to someone whom you can communicate to and to someone who trusts that what you are telling them is the honest truth and not just some attempt to get them into bed, you should be able to work out some level of a compromise.


Aha, this is getting interesting. Please elaborate on the compromises.



> How to terminate HD/LD relationship? That almost needs to be done on a case by case scenario. If you are simply dating and not even living together, just say "adios" and walk away, provided you have explained the problem and given enough time to allow for the two of you to work it out. The more assets involved in the relationship, however, the harder it is to seperate over an HD/LD issue. If you have three kids, a house, and are in a financial situation where getting your place would be almost impossible, maybe you choose not to leave at all and instead stay because it's the better option, even if it is a truly bad place to be.


Very realistic advice and I agree 100%! Thank you!


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Depends on the erotica.
> 
> "50 Shades" and the like do serve a purpose, I think - the same purpose pornography serves for men. Which is mostly to set expectations above reasonable or to use as a fill-in when you can't get a living, breathing human.
> 
> ...


I could foresee making a small fortune by getting the rights of these books translated and distributed here in my country.. If I can do it without provoking the religious establishments 

But, you said above that these novels set the expectations above the reasonable. This could also have negative side effects. Is there any good novels that depicts normal, everyday sex between married couples? (Eh, that's not a paradox, right?)


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> So you think, this does help in eliminating bait and switch? Do you think that the baiters will be worn out enough if having to wait three years before the bait works?


Thank you jlb3. I think most cases at three years we would who we're with pretty well if we actually pay attention. We have a way of seeing what we want to rather than what's actually there so there would still be mistakes made out of denial. Likely not repeated mistakes though.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> . Equally a problem but men aren't held to that being thier partner's need so often.


Being physically unfit and obese is a problem in marriage, especially if it interferes with normal daily living. I concede that.

In my country's ancient wisdom, the expectation of a husband and wife is like this:

Husband should be:
1. Able to provide for the needs of his wife and children, which means food, water, clothing, education, transportation and other necessities of life.

2. Able to father a children with his wife (yea, the pressure of having children is there)

3. Be respectful to, and able to defend the honor of the family and including the clan of the wife.

Wife should be:
1. Able to be good mother (giving birth to and taking care of children, that's called "manak")

2. Able to appear beautiful, and be good sex partner, for the husband (that's called 'macak')

3. Able to cook for the family (these days not a requirement, but appreciated, this is called "masak")

4. Able to sew and taking care of family's clothings (these days not a requirement, but appreciated)

5. Be respectful to the clan of the husband.

In modern times, point 3 and 4 are no longer considered a requirement (though potential daughters-in-law are being praised if they had shown good potentials there). The rest are considered important.

I am sure Western people will consider these values "outdated".


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

Relating to avoiding mismatches, I've been thinking about trying to write up a marriage compatibility questionnaire, and then posting it on TAM and other marriage sites. I'm sure there are lots of similar questionnaires out there, but maybe none as detailed in certain areas as we on TAM would want. Probably online dating sites have questionnaires but not this detailed or personal, and I doubt you get to see all of the other person's answers.

Maybe other people on TAM might be interested in working on this with me (a group project)? It would be good to get feedback from TAM members and improve it, adding new questions over time. If there were some 'sticky' questionnaire like this on TAM or other marriage sites, maybe it would be easier to tell your bf/gf, hey I found this compatibility questionnaire on the Internet, why don't we try each filling it out and compare answers? (It would be much easier than asking them a ton of embarrassing questions yourself, you could blame the embarrassment and nosiness on the anonymous questionnaire's author.) 

There could be sections on romance, communication, quality time, housework division, job/career plans, budgets, joint/separate finances, relationship with extended family, child rearing approaches, timing/number of kids desired, attitude on pets, attitudes on relocation/places to live, attitudes on keeping in shape, willingness to go to marriage counseling or individual counseling, willingness to read books on relationships, willingness to go to a doctor, religious beliefs, maybe even history of child abuse, etc..
The answers would be multiple choice mostly and you could always skip questions (maybe there would be a 'too personal' answer).

For the sex section of the questionnaire, I don't think it should ask about past sexual experiences or someone's 'number' (I think it is usually best not to know that type of details because you cannot 'unhear' it), but focus what a person wants to do sexually in the future. For sex, it might ask if they would be interested in doing X sexual act throughout marriage, how often (multiple choice ranges to make it easier), etc.. 

What do you guys think? Is this a dumb idea? I'm not recommending people sign their answers in blood as a contract, but I think it could really open up some important discussions and if people are dismayed by their partner's responses, it might avoid some bad marriage or divorce. There are some things my H and I forgot to ask each other before marriage and just assumed that weren't accurate.

I also thought about making a list of some verbal commitments that spouses might make to each other, either in public during the wedding vows and/or just in private to recommit to every 6 months throughout a marriage. For example, "I promise I will keep you and our relationship as my top priority even during times of stress, to openly and often discuss all issues as equals, use no hurtful words or raised voice or unpleasant tone, to work to improve my flaws, to stay healthy and fit as best I can, to make love with you at least once a week unless physically unable, to carve out quiet time each day for us to talk, cuddle, and reconnect", etc. I'd leave out 'till death do us part' - I don't believe that is even a good thing to say in wedding vows.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

So now for the "How do you manage it?" part of the answer. This will be longer than I usually care to write. It addresses those who are in sexually mismatched marriages, where frequency or taste is a constant issue, but not sexless marriages. A marriage with no sex at all is not a marriage and should be treated accordingly.

Well, you manage it like any other great frustration in life. With ups and downs, small successes and spectacular failures. You do not escape unscathed, and you do not really win. But maybe you can survive.

Some days you feel like a jackass for wanting more than your spouse is willing to give. Other days you feel like an even bigger ass for thinking that your spouse's willingness is even part of the equation when it's clear that this a fundamental part of their personality. Then a week later you're angry because, dang it, you only get to go around once and you didn't sign up for this when you put your signature on the monogamy and fidelity line.

So at first you fight about it. You pull out Masters and Johnson and point your finger at the page that says "See? People in our demographic are having sex 3.29 times a week and we're only getting it on once or twice! Why can't we be normal?" You exchange harsh words, hurt feelings, and tears, but it doesn't really change, because it can't (and it's best if you understand this R.F.N). Admittedly, when you're young, you'll take almost anything you can get so you let it ride. The LD person sets the agenda and the time table, and you try to enjoy the ride because it's the only train in town.

After a few years, the ups and downs have shallowed out to a little more gentle slope, if you're lucky and patient, but every once in a while the hibernating bear comes back with a vengeance. You've held back your needs for freakin' ever, and you start to realize that maybe this relationship isn't going to improve, sexually speaking. So even though you don't make too many waves, you start making a few demands. She digs in her heels too, because by now she's gotten enough feedback from friends and psychology self help books to say "You know what? I'm fine. I'm not abnormal. There are lots of women like me. Why can't you just leave me alone about this?" 

Now you have kids, and a mortgage, and a life, and perhaps a partner with whom you really have a lot in common, but still can't agree in the bedroom on just about anything. The LD partner continues to set the agenda. You realize that you have no say whatsoever in you sexual identity. She decides when you'll have sex, where, and how, even why. You play along because it's still the only game in town. You try to push the boundaries - maybe she'll let me touch her today - and when the inevitably poor reaction is realized, you storm out of the room, frustrated, hurt - but you knew that was coming all along. You knew it would happen, but you couldn't help yourself. You had to try! Just maybe if you're patient and caring and gentle enough, you'll open up this impenetrable shell just a crack.

So now you have this cancerous resentment growing inside of you. You've been married to a stunted sexual being for 15 or more years. You've sublimated your desire, your wants, your needs, and put them in the (seemingly) uncaring hands of another. You start to find ways to avoid sex altogether, because you don't even respect yourself for having become so utterly pathetic. You start to wonder if divorce is an option. Or if you'd be morally bankrupt for finding a mistress while still remaining true to the needs of your growing family. You start to wonder if the best years of your sexual life are going to pass before your eyes, unfulfilled and sterile as a desert. 

If you're at all like me, you're still just a little bit lucky. Because you haven't been a complete ass to your spouse the whole time, and because you still put at least some effort into your relationship as a whole, she's still actually wants to have sex with you, as long as she gets to set the boundaries. Your attraction never goes to zero. She makes the effort a few times a month to be there for you, so as long as you play by the rules, you can still share some intimacy and closeness. You long ago gave up on initiating sex because that's just an invitation to get shot down in flames. 

Better than a quarter century passes since you realized there might be a problem on your honeymoon. Finally you understand that your sexual prime really has passed you by, and yes, you really did miss out. There's nothing you can do about it now, so continuing to be angry is (and always was, really) just counterproductive. You have no further energy to argue about sex any longer - whenever it comes up, you just sigh and avoid the topic. You've softened over the years, so you realize that your spouse has never tried to hurt you. She is no more responsible for being the way she is than you are for being you, and she's not the problem. You're not the problem. Your mismatch is the problem, and there's precious little you can do to bridge the gap.

So you soldier on. You found someone to share a life with, and it's really a pretty good life when you think about it. You don't argue about money, or religion, or where to live, what movies to see, or what to do with your spare time. The kids leave the nest, but the nest doesn't really feel empty because you still have this person with whom you've shared over half of your life sitting one chair over. You start to notice that your sexual energy isn't what it used to be, so just maybe you'll find a happy place where sex is no longer the elephant in the bedroom it used to be. At least, you hope that's what happens.


====================

So how do you get through it? 

You avoid it if possible. There's no silver bullet. Do everything in your powers to never find yourself in this place.

You survive with extraordinary patience, even if you're not really known for that quality. If change comes, it will come glacially - never the product of force or harassment. You have to realize that every change, every attempt made on your partner's part, no matter how small to your greedy eyes, is an effort worthy of reward and recognition. Fail this, and you widen the already unbridgeable gap between you. Unless your partner has given you reason to believe otherwise, this isn't about her trying to inflict pain on you - this is a fundamental part of who she is inside. 

So you have to look for the compromise where it can be found. As the HD spouse, you will have to compromise more than your spouse. Sorry, that's just the reality. You will have to be willing to sublimate a large chunk of your desire for the good of the relationship. You will fail at times, you will lash out, and you will become resentful, maybe permanently, maybe only in spurts. 

Only you can decide if you can live like this. Not everyone can, and perhaps no one should. If you feel this way and don't have children, I urge you to get out now if you're society allows it. Take the lesson on to your next relationship. You are not a bad person if you discover that you can't be sexually happy with your partner, and that discovery ends your marriage. If you do have children, then your personal morals will have to dictate your choices.

And remember, if you stay, it will only get better for you when you let go of the anger and resentment you hold for your spouse and learn to enjoy what you have together, even if it's well below what you would consider ideal. It is still precious. 

I'm not there yet, but I'm still on the journey.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Cletus said:


> So now for the "How do you manage it?" part of the answer. This will be longer than I usually care to write..snip..I'm not there yet, but I'm still on the journey.


 *sniff*  (wiping away my tears)...

Mr. Cletus, that's very touching. Very very touching. 

Let me quote myself here...



> "If all these noble, selfless, sexless husbands in this forum gets a gold medal for every week they spent without any kind of sexual gratification from their wives...while still genuinely caring and providing for them.. the International Olympic Committee will have to disband, because there will be no more gold medals left in this world to be given to their athletes..."


Since I joined this forum, Every day I discover heart-tugging sad stories like these, about loving husbands who genuinely love their wives, and yet those wives constantly denied them sex.... 

And yet, nobody seems to sympathize with their plight. Many people cares about wars in the Middle East and the vanishing of tropical forest.. but nobody seems to give a damn about the suffering of husbands affllicted by sexless marriages.. I am yet to see any world symposium on remedying sexless marriages.. while the topics of Israel vs Palestine are debated to the death almost every year...

Mr. Cletus, I wish one day you will find your happiness. I never been in your situation, but even I could sympathize with your plight. 

Mr. Cletus, is there any real advice (real no-holds-barred, PC-be-damned advice) you'd give to all those unsuspecting man out there, for making aware about the painful life of having to marry an LD partner? A simple catchprase like "Don't Do It" or "Enter At Your Own Risk" or "Leave Your Penis At The Door"?


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Kari said:


> Relating to avoiding mismatches, I've been thinking about trying to write up a marriage compatibility questionnaire, and then posting it on TAM and other marriage sites.


Great idea Mrs. Kari!



> ..snip..Maybe other people on TAM might be interested in working on this with me (a group project)? It would be good to get feedback from TAM members and improve it, adding new questions over time.


count me in, but I believe I will have to overcome cultural barrier, as my country has very different sociocultural norms compared to Western countries.



> What do you guys think? Is this a dumb idea? I'm not recommending people sign their answers in blood as a contract, but I think it could really open up some important discussions and if people are dismayed by their partner's responses, it might avoid some bad marriage or divorce.


No, not dumb at all! It's good and workable.



> I also thought about making a list of some verbal commitments that spouses might make to each other, either in public during the wedding vows and/or just in private to recommit to every 6 months throughout a marriage. For example, "I promise I will keep you and our relationship as my top priority even during times of stress, to openly and often discuss all issues as equals, use no hurtful words or raised voice or unpleasant tone, to work to improve my flaws, to stay healthy and fit as best I can, to make love with you at least once a week unless physically unable, to carve out quiet time each day for us to talk, cuddle, and reconnect", etc. I'd leave out 'till death do us part' - I don't believe that is even a good thing to say in wedding vows.


Yea, I am an advocate of prenuptial agreements, and this could be a good template for such agreements.

So when do we start?


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

BTW, I feel it won't be fair if we always assume that LD is always female dan HD is always male. The opposites are sometimes happens. But I think I read somewhere in this forum that the majority of cases of sex refusal in marriage is done by the wives, which might be true in Western countries. But Asian countries may be a little different..

Therefore, if you could read Indonesian:

Hukum beri nafkah batin | Jalan Akhirat

This URL is a consultation of three women, poor them, whose husbands refuse to give them sex. 

Actually, one sent a letter to the Ulema, and after the Ulema answered that letter, two others sent him the same complaints.

Just a quick note, lest someone accused that I am biased just because I have male genitals since I was born..


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Thank you for coming, and I really appreciate your opinions, knowing that they came from painful personal experiences, which should not be discounted lightly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Cletus said:


> So now for the "How do you manage it?" part of the answer. This will be longer than I usually care to write. It addresses those who are in sexually mismatched marriages, where frequency or taste is a constant issue, but not sexless marriages. A marriage with no sex at all is not a marriage and should be treated accordingly.
> 
> Well, you manage it like any other great frustration in life. With ups and downs, small successes and spectacular failures. You do not escape unscathed, and you do not really win. But maybe you can survive.
> 
> ...


:allhail:

Post of the year. Man is that a perfect image of what I had lived through and at times am living through now. Well said Cletus, well said....


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

And btw Kari, sign me up. I'll help you make that questioniarre.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> *sniff*  (wiping away my tears)...
> 
> Mr. Cletus, that's very touching. Very very touching.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind words, but I prefer to be philosophical about it. 

It's not worse than my sister-in-law's situation, who has just now divorced her husband after decades of Bipolar disorder and substance abuse. It's not worse than my father's situation, when his wife was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. 

It's not worse than the death of a spouse, or being physically abused. It's not worse in fact than a lot of things that go wrong in marriages, and if this is the biggest complaint I have about my spouse, then maybe I'm not really so bad off as I sometimes feel. I try to maintain a little perspective.



> Mr. Cletus, is there any real advice (real no-holds-barred, PC-be-damned advice) you'd give to all those unsuspecting man out there, for making aware about the painful life of having to marry an LD partner? A simple catchprase like "Don't Do It" or "Enter At Your Own Risk" or "Leave Your Penis At The Door"?


"Looks like it's you and me tonight, Rosie" 
(Old Jackson Brown song)


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Aha, this is getting interesting. Please elaborate on the compromises.


Sorry, I meant to comment on this earlier, but Cletus awesome post totally distracted me. That post should be stickied for all to read as a warning regarding marital sex disparity.

As for my post, when I say compromises, likely a better word would be negotiations. If you are involved with a partner who genuinely wants to see you happy in all things in the relationship and whom can listen to your point of view on all things in a non-judgmental manner, it opens the door to proper communication and through that, a balancing of beliefs to meet each others needs. 

As I said, if you are seeking sex 3-4x a week but your partner is only interested in 2x a month, that's a huge issue. However if you are with someone who will listen to why you want sex that often and try and understand where you are coming from, the odds are greater that a compromise will be found that can keep the HD person happy, or at least mostly happy. If are with someone who simply writes your higher desire as you "wanting to get your rocks off" or being a "typical man" or just wanting to "use me for my body because I'm the one here" then you have a substancial communication issue which will not permit a healthy discussion on the topic.

Communication really is the key to avoiding a rough marriage. The problem in this is that often the HD person has other attributes which are desireable to the LD person. Maybe they are a really nice person, maybe they are a good provider, maybe they have a great sense of humour, who knows. But they have some good qualities which the LD person would hate to lose in a breakup, so they continue to supply sex at a pace above what they want to in order to mitigate the risk of having the HD person leave.

Once a marriage is in place, or even a long-term relationship with an anchoring point such as a mortgage or a child, then there is a much reduced flight risk for the LD person, and they naturally lower the sexual output to match this lower level of risk. I don't beleive bait and switch is done on purpose most of the time actually, but rather the sexual output is a mere reflection of the fear that the HD person will leave the relationship. It's why often a HD person who leaves or who tells their spouse/partner they are considering leaving will report at least a temporary spike in sexual output. The LD partner is instinctively trying to re-cement the relationship, and is doing so through sex.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> As for my post, when I say compromises, likely a better word would be negotiations. If you are involved with a partner who genuinely wants to see you happy in all things in the relationship and whom can listen to your point of view on all things in a non-judgmental manner, it opens the door to proper communication and through that, a balancing of beliefs to meet each others needs.


Not easy, but workable, if the _love_ is really, really there. I meant _REAL LOVE_, not crappy dishonest love like "..I like him, he is a good man, honest man, nice to my kids, got a steady job..but I just dislikes having sex with him because, he is, like, want me to give him sex like two or three times a week, and ALWAYS while I am NOT in the mood.."



> As I said, if you are seeking sex 3-4x a week but your partner is only interested in 2x a month, that's a huge issue. However if you are with someone who will listen to why you want sex that often and try and understand where you are coming from, the odds are greater that a compromise will be found that can keep the HD person happy, or at least mostly happy.


Yea, I could relate to this. A friend of mine (a lady) said that, with her 1st husband, who she didn't love at all, she always resented having sex with him, and only gave him duty sex.. no BJs, HJs, etc, and sex always in very very low frequency (once or twice a month if he is lucky). This is despite her 1st husband was a good, decent man. Then they got divorced, she finally asked for it. 

Then she married her 2nd husband, a person whom she chosen herself. The fact that this 2nd guy is a jerk who beat her up often during arguments. And yet, they have sex 4 to 5 times a week regularly, and she went all out (HJs, BJs, many positional changes, etc) with this 2nd husband, because she loves him very much. So the love is the key here.




> If are with someone who simply writes your higher desire as you "wanting to get your rocks off" or being a "typical man" or just wanting to "use me for my body because I'm the one here" then you have a substancial communication issue which will not permit a healthy discussion on the topic.


Would it be "over the top" if I advise all young men out there, that if their girlfriend EVER uttered one of those words above, then they should "*Ben Johnson" away from the relationship?

*Ben Johnson - former Olympic runner who broke the world record, and later admitted that he used anabolic steroids to achieve higher-than-average running speed... 



> Communication really is the key to avoiding a rough marriage. The problem in this is that often the HD person has other attributes which are desireable to the LD person. Maybe they are a really nice person, maybe they are a good provider, maybe they have a great sense of humour, who knows. But they have some good qualities which the LD person would hate to lose in a breakup, so they continue to supply sex at a pace above what they want to in order to mitigate the risk of having the HD person leave.
> 
> Once a marriage is in place, or even a long-term relationship with an anchoring point such as a mortgage or a child, then there is a much reduced flight risk for the LD person, and they naturally lower the sexual output to match this lower level of risk. I don't beleive bait and switch is done on purpose most of the time actually, but rather the sexual output is a mere reflection of the fear that the HD person will leave the relationship. It's why often a HD person who leaves or who tells their spouse/partner they are considering leaving will report at least a temporary spike in sexual output. The LD partner is instinctively trying to re-cement the relationship, and is doing so through sex.


This is not going to be a satisfying life. The HD person must be on the alert all the times? Must be ready to leave all the times? It would feels like walking amongst eggs!

And the LD person, would feel to be forced to do things he/she hates to do just to keep the spouse. That must be a big hit on their ego/dignity/human rights. They have rights over their bodies, and should never be coerced into sex, even within marriage... 

Another good reasons why HDs (and even NDs-normal drive) should never marry an LD person.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

The whole point JLB is to avoid the LD/HD scenario in the first place but I think even if you do your best pre-screening and laid all of your expectations out on the table ahead of the marriage, there's still a very strong chance that a LD/HD marriage could form anyways, due to a large number of hurdles that marriage presents which can't be properly accounted for ahead of time, children being a great example. It's well known having and raising kids can absolutely destroy a woman's sex drive.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> The whole point JLB is to avoid the LD/HD scenario in the first place but I think even if you do your best pre-screening and laid all of your expectations out on the table ahead of the marriage, there's still a very strong chance that a LD/HD marriage could form anyways, due to a large number of hurdles that marriage presents which can't be properly accounted for ahead of time, children being a great example. *It's well known having and raising kids can absolutely destroy a woman's sex drive*.


Very logical and (as evidenced in this forum) empirical, Mr. Kingsfan, I agree with you.

However, does it really HAVE to be like that? MUST it happen like that? From my personal experience, it's a resounding NO. The way I see it, sometimes (or oftentimes?) the children are used as an excuse not to have sex. 

Here is a personal story. My assistant's wife is a homemaker, taking care of two young kids. Living very modestly because his income is rather small. Life is very exhausting for both of them (she has a lot of work at home to do with no help from anyone, he has to work from 8AM to 7PM daily, and still need another 2 hours to go back home).

But, to our amazement, they have normal sex life (none of those "I am too @*#!! tired to become your sperm receptacle, don't touch me, go away!!" stuff), and it was *HER* who complained to _me_ and asking me to give her husband a day off or two. "Why?" I asked. "Sir, because when he gets too tired from all the tasks you gave him, he often just sleeps after eating dinner! How can I get a third child from him if at home he only eats and sleeps??"...


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

That could be a different issue altogether though. Is she really wanting to have sex with him, or wanting to have a child? COuld be both, or could be she's horny for her husband, but it could be she just wants another child. At which point is she really HD, or is she just putting up with sex to get what she wants? 

there's plenty of evidence for a wife going HD just to get a baby. Look at the thread that Joe Henderson is writing about his sexless marriage. his wife seems bent on finding any possible excuse not to have sex with him, and is already making future excuses. however, when he mentions having another child, suddenly she's planning the future, including how long she'll need to take off from work to raise the child properly.

Child wreak havoc on a women's body and the chemicals relating to emotions and desires, including sex. It's impractical to think that anyone can prevent that solely on the practice of a handdhake agreement to be sexually cognisant of the others needs/wants.

Rather, it's that love emotion you should be seeking. Look for someone who is a pleaser, someone who wants to make people (not just his/her partner, but everyone in life) happy. Odds are those type of people will work to make their own partner happy as well, including through sex, assuming the HD person does their part and properly acknowledge the importance of sex in their life and relationship.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> That could be a different issue altogether though. *Is she really wanting to have sex with him, or wanting to have a child? COuld be both, or could be she's horny for her husband, but it could be she just wants another child. At which point is she really HD, or is she just putting up with sex to get what she wants? *
> 
> there's plenty of evidence for a wife going HD just to get a baby. Look at the thread that Joe Henderson is writing about his sexless marriage. his wife seems bent on finding any possible excuse not to have sex with him, and is already making future excuses. however, when he mentions having another child, suddenly she's planning the future, including how long she'll need to take off from work to raise the child properly.
> 
> ...


Very good points, Mr. Kingsfan. Duly noted and written down. I have invited Mr. Joe Henderson to this thread, hopefully there are things here that would be useful for him.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> However, does it really HAVE to be like that? MUST it happen like that? From my personal experience, it's a resounding NO.


I guess like everything else, individual mileage will vary.

Childbirth changed my wife's entire personality. She was a happy person who would sing and spin silly pirouettes in the kitchen. Playfully flipping water on her while we were doing dishes would instantly erupt into a mock wrestling match. She played the piano very well and I got her one as a first anniversary present. I used to love to listen to her do Scott Joplin. Her sense of humor was low and ran in the direction of practical jokes. Nobody was safe and I had the bejesus scared out of me more than once. 

All that changed when the first child was born. Her piano sits in a spare room covered in a sheet. Hasn't been touched in 30 years or so. -Couldn't tell you the last time I heard her sing. It's been about as long.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> I guess like everything else, individual mileage will vary.
> 
> Childbirth changed my wife's entire personality. She was a happy person who would sing and spin silly pirouettes in the kitchen. Playfully flipping water on her while we were doing dishes would instantly erupt into a mock wrestling match. She played the piano very well and I got her one as a first anniversary present. I used to love to listen to her do Scott Joplin. Her sense of humor was low and ran in the direction of practical jokes. Nobody was safe and I had the bejesus scared out of me more than once.
> 
> All that changed when the first child was born. Her piano sits in a spare room covered in a sheet. Hasn't been touched in 30 years or so. -Couldn't tell you the last time I heard her sing. It's been about as long.


:scratchhead:

By the Beard of Benjamin! This is sad to hear 

I am a former musician (amateur) myself.. If someone who plays music well, suddenly just STOP playing music, that means a huge, I mean HUGE, change of personality!!

So sorry to hear this, Mr. Ocotillo. 

BTW...Sometimes I regretted not following my dreams to be a full-time musician.. who knows where my talents would've lead me? But I had to make a choice back then... between living the uncertain life as a musician, or getting a steady, but boring job..

Maybe your wife is feeling the same way?


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

*Scary....*

Friends, take a look at this comment I got from this URL:

"Help....I hate sex!!!!": Sexual Health Community - Support Group



> 1 year ago
> acarroll74 responded:
> Hello, I am 10 years older than you, but when I was in my late twenties, I started really hating to have sex. Not all the time, but most of the time. *Now I could go the rest of my life without doing it. If I feel an urge, I can just take care of it myself.* I don't need some guy (my husband) pounding away at me, messing up my hair, trying to talk sexy (which just annoys me), or making the same old approach..one boob, then the other, then we're off. I especially hate it after I have taken a bath, dried my hair...I feel so good and he wants to ruin it by having sex! I just want to go to bed and sleep.
> 
> ...


:scratchhead:

Imagine having this person as your wife.... so scary, so incredibly scary...

HD boys!! TAKE A LOOK AT THIS COMMENT!! Do you REALLY want to end up having a selfish LD like THIS as your wife?!?!?! 

mothers, would you be willing to let this woman marry your son???


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

*Re: Scary....*



john_lord_b3 said:


> Friends, take a look at this comment I got from this URL:
> 
> "Help....I hate sex!!!!": Sexual Health Community - Support Group
> 
> ...


I wonder how she got so indifferent. Maybe she's selfish or lazy but there's more to it than that. She certainly doesn't have any respect for her husband and this case went way past LD/HD because she would rather masterbate than be with him. Her husband thinks she has no drive when in fact she has drive but no attraction to him. In her case, frequency of sex is the squeaky wheel but lose of respect or attraction is the vilian.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

*Re: Scary....*



Thundarr said:


> I wonder how she got so indifferent. Maybe she's selfish or lazy but there's more to it than that. She certainly doesn't have any respect for her husband and this case went way past LD/HD because she would rather masterbate than be with him. Her husband thinks she has no drive when in fact she has drive but no attraction to him. In her case, frequency of sex is the squeaky wheel but lose of respect or attraction is the vilian.


I think I have encountered a case like this but not as extreme as this. What happened was, a woman from higher-class clan was arranged to marry a man from a lower-class clan, due to "accident" (she got pregnant with former boyfriend, boyfriend an away, family need a "backup" to ensure that the baby has a "father"). The result is a marriage where the wife does not respect the husband at all, due to (1) does not love and (2) he is considered as coming from lower class clan.

Does this make sense? Sorry if I cannot explain it in a clearer manner.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I'm not there yet, but I'm still on the journey.


Beautiful post.

I presume your wife is aware of your unhappiness and frustration? She is aware that your entire sexual life is dominated by her boundaries which makes you unhappy?


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

TheStranger said:


> Beautiful post.
> 
> I presume your wife is aware of your unhappiness and frustration? She is aware that your entire sexual life is dominated by her boundaries which makes you unhappy?


I'm not Cletus, but speaking from experience, the LD wife views sexual desire as inherently selfish and the resultant unhappiness and frustration as childish.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> I'm not Cletus, but speaking from experience, the LD wife views sexual desire as inherently selfish and the resultant unhappiness and frustration as childish.


I don't think it's possible to actually love and desire someone who you view as selfish and childish.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

TheStranger said:


> I don't think it's possible to actually love and desire someone who you view as selfish and childish.


You hit that nail on the head


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> I think I have encountered a case like this but not as extreme as this. What happened was, a woman from higher-class clan was arranged to marry a man from a lower-class clan, due to "accident" (she got pregnant with former boyfriend, boyfriend an away, family need a "backup" to ensure that the baby has a "father"). The result is a marriage where the wife does not respect the husband at all, due to (1) does not love and (2) he is considered as coming from lower class clan.
> 
> Does this make sense? Sorry if I cannot explain it in a clearer manner.


Makes sense to me. It would also make sense to me if that backup husband milked as much as he could from the higher clan 'wife' and ****ed off with the first pretty thing that crossed his path too.



TheStranger said:


> I don't think it's possible to actually love and desire someone who you view as selfish and childish.


Agreed, but your definition of love and what a LD wife might call love are often two different things.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TheStranger said:


> Beautiful post.
> 
> I presume your wife is aware of your unhappiness and frustration? She is aware that your entire sexual life is dominated by her boundaries which makes you unhappy?


Of course. Back in the days when we still argued about it, it was the single greatest source of conflict in our relationship.

She would change it if she could. I once told her that my greatest regret in marriage was having a partner who didn't find sexuality something interesting or necessary to explore. Hers was her inability to make me happy in the bedroom. 

Part of coming to peace with it is realizing that neither one of us can really change who we are and what we find compelling or disgusting. Getting her to experiment with things that most here would consider to be pedestrian every-day sex acts brings her to tears. What can you do with that? Even getting your way is just another way to lose, in the end. So we have to settle on the lowest common denominator, with a very rare occasional foray into my world.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Of course. Back in the days when we still argued about it, it was the single greatest source of conflict in our relationship.


In your own words I can't find a glimpse of love coming from your wife to you. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's clear that your effort you've put in your marriage is by far greater than the effort she made. You didn't wrote what she had done about her issues. I'd consider to sacrifice my needs only if I'm sure she has done everything in her power to make me happy. 

And then there is this:



> There are lots of women like me. Why can't you just leave me alone about this?





> You long ago gave up on initiating sex because that's just an invitation to get shot down in flames.


This has nothing to do with mismatched drives. This is pure disrespect.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

This forum is starting to give me negative side effects. I have a son. When he grows up, I want him to get himself a good woman whom are not LD. But it is very difficult to determine whether a woman is LD or not. Now I am very concerned. I start to have real life headaches.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> This forum is starting to give me negative side effects. I have a son. When he grows up, I want him to get himself a good woman whom are not LD. But it is very difficult to determine whether a woman is LD or not. Now I am very concerned. I start to have real life headaches.


Play Hotel Caliornia for him. Then tell him the Hotel is a metaphore for being married to a LD wife.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> Play Hotel Caliornia for him. Then tell him the Hotel is a metaphore for being married to a LD wife.


Sadly true. 

I'm not only going to try and help my sons in their selections of potential women, but I'm going to help my daughters understand that sex isn't something a woman needs to be afraid of; that she can enjoy sex, partake in it often with her spouse, want it, need it, ask for it, participate and be enthusiastic about it, and still be ladylike and feminine. That no man in his right mind would think it unbecoming of her to enjoy sex. 

My mother never really talked about sex much with me. I rarely asked questions, but I didn't even know what oral sex was until my now husband was giving it to me. I don't want my daughters to be quite so unprepared.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Agreed C2W. My expereince with a 'sex talk' was sex ed in class, and back then that was strictly about how stuff works. About as far as they got in regards to talking about actual sex was "the penis goes into the vagina" and that was about it.

And that was done at I think age 11 or 12 and then nothing during the actual teenage years when we all could have used it.

I was so unprepared for relationships, nevermind the role and importance of sex in them, that it took I'd say eight years into my relationship with my ex-wife (5.5 years into the actual marriage) to realize that sex should be a regular part of a relationship and that I am ok to push for it without being considered a jerk. 

Funny how our education system can spend months teaching us calculus and algebra which 99% of us will never use, but can't find time to teach regular life lessons, like what to look for when purchasing a house, how best to save for retirement and why sex is so important to many people in relationships. Those things could make or break a lot of lives, but we leave those things up to people to figure out on their own.

I plan on talking with all my kids about sex. It's one thing both me and my fiancee are on the same page with.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TheStranger said:


> In your own words I can't find a glimpse of love coming from your wife to you.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong but it's clear that your effort you've put in your marriage is by far greater than the effort she made. You didn't wrote what she had done about her issues. I'd consider to sacrifice my needs only if I'm sure she has done everything in her power to make me happy.


That's a tough call. Is it more of a sacrifice to do things you despise than to not do something you enjoy? 

My sacrifice is to not get to do many of the things I find pleasurable in the bedroom. Hers is to have sex with me twice as often as she would like, albeit on her terms, and maybe 3 or 4 times a year do something she truly dislikes. So maybe that's not a 50/50 split, but it is a compromise.



> And then there is this:
> [not initiating for fear of being shot down]
> 
> This has nothing to do with mismatched drives. This is pure disrespect.


I could initiate more. Often the answer would be yes, sometimes no. Years of studying the problem made it clear that letting her decide the 'when' resulted in better satisfaction for both of us. I want an interested partner, not just an accommodating one. So yes, she should definitely work on greater enthusiasm when I decide to fire the opening salvo.

To address the larger point you're making, I'm not sure it's disrespectful to your partner to dislike most sexual activity and to want to avoid it, not if it makes you physically ill to have a man's face between your thighs. Nothing ever changed in our relationship - it's been this way since our honeymoon, the first time we were intimate. There was no deceit, no misrepresentation, no bait and switch. What there was was two naive young kids who didn't even know the questions to ask before they got married, who got a little burned from that negligence. 

So now, I fight against ignorance.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Funny how our education system can spend months teaching us calculus and algebra which 99% of us will never use, but can't find time to teach regular life lessons, like what to look for when purchasing a house, how best to save for retirement and why sex is so important to many people in relationships. Those things could make or break a lot of lives, but we leave those things up to people to figure out on their own.


Eh, I agree Mr. Kingsfan. That's why I am here in this forum, to learn how you Westerners handles life problems, so that I could take the lessons learned and best practices and present them to my country people.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

Cletus said:


> To address the larger point you're making, I'm not sure it's disrespectful to your partner to dislike most sexual activity and to want to avoid it, not if it makes you physically ill to have a man's face between your thighs.


Actually I'm not making a larger point. It's disrespectful to be 'shot down in flames' when expressed desire to be intimate with your wife. Your choice of words.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Cletus said:


> There was no deceit, no misrepresentation, no bait and switch. What there was was two naive young kids who didn't even know the questions to ask before they got married, who got a little burned from that negligence.
> 
> So now, I fight against ignorance.


I could relate to this.. When I pursued the wild life of being a musician, I think only of the good parts (fun, adoration, having sex with foreign women, smoking weeds, etc). I didn't know that it isn't always fun, we weren't always adored, foreign women are not superior than local women, smoking weeds will get us arrested... and band members doesn't always get along... and some things I did were quite disrespectful to my clan. I was young and stupid, ok? Thanks God I wasn't too stubborn to finally calls it quits, and get another, safer occupation.

So, I know how does it feels to made bad decision out of ignorance, and suffer the consequences.

I still love music though, just like you still love your wife, Mr. Cletus


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Agreed, but your definition of love and what a LD wife might call love are often two different things.


BUT, isn't love always means adaptation and compromise? This is universal, ne?

I posted something like this in other thread:



> Having an LD spouse whom are still trying to meet HD's sexual needs, is MUCH better than having a spouse who is NOT LD, but simply not enjoying having sex with his/her spouse.
> 
> If we are to speak in general terms, there are other factors which must be taken into equation. Sex is one huge important factor in marriage. But, there are other factors to consider.
> 
> ...


As an additional note.. marriage in many Asian countries = duty, customs, religion and tradition. Love is not always a deciding factor.

But you Westerners has the chance to have a loving marriage by choice.

Let's make that a blessing


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> BUT, isn't love always means adaptation and compromise? This is universal, ne?


Yes, but there has to be an agreement on what should be adapted to.

For example, if your wife wanted to be brought home a large, three-scoop ice cream everyday, you can either adapt and do that for her, or you can say "That's a bit ridiculous. If you want one, go get it yourself."

If it's not inconveint to you (as determined by you) then you would likely go get the ice cream for her. It was inconvient, you likely wouldn't, at least not as often as she would like it.

When it comes to sex, the LD person treats sex the same way you would the ice cream cone if it's inconvient to you. You still love your wife, you just don't view the 'need' for an ice cream everyday as something you should adapt to. Likewise, the LD person doesn't view sex on whatever level the HD person 'needs' it as something they should adapt to.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> BUT, isn't love always means adaptation and compromise? This is universal, ne?


Love always means care for well-being of other. From that care comes will to compromise something in order to make the other happier. 

But it's not possible to compromise everything. There can be no happy compromise when planning a family for instance. I'm not sure if compromise is possible when drives are mismatched.

Love is not the ultimate power. It will get crushed by things we cannot agree on and who are important to us.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Yes, but there has to be an agreement on what should be adapted to.
> 
> For example, if your wife wanted to be brought home a large, three-scoop ice cream everyday, you can either adapt and do that for her, or you can say "That's a bit ridiculous. If you want one, go get it yourself."
> 
> ...


Yeah, and finally the ND/HD person had enough and calls it quits. That must be hard for the LD. They will think "I am gracious and generous enough to give you yearly sex out of my love to you, despite the fact that I felt no physical satisfaction at all during my great act of selfless sacrifice...and you dared to leave me? _You're a bad bad bad bad person, I hope you got hit by a truck!_"

Off course I am honest enough to admit that I am exagerrating in the italicized statement above ... but not the rest.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Which we already know JLB. I think we are off the topic of the thread. We know how the fall out of a relationship break up goes.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Which we already know JLB. I think we are off the topic of the thread. We know how the fall out of a relationship break up goes.


I know, but in my country, at divorce, 9 times out of 12, the Hakam (judge) will award child custody to the mother and her clan. If an LD mother so resented being divorced by her HD husband, it will make the former husband experiencing very difficult time to visit the child(ren), etc.

There must be a way to break the marriage without the LD party being too offended, ne?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> I know, but in my country, at divorce, 9 times out of 12, the Hakam (judge) will award child custody to the mother and her clan. If an LD mother so resented being divorced by her HD husband, it will make the former husband experiencing very difficult time to visit the child(ren), etc.
> 
> There must be a way to break the marriage without the LD party being too offended, ne?


It can happen, but it's unlikely. Often, the only way to do that is to drift apart physically, but remain like friends on an emotional level, and then have a mutual understanding and acceptance of that drifting apart. Essencially, the two people need to drift apart at almost the same rate on the same levels.

Obviously that's very hard to do, and as such why most divorces require lawyers. 

When emotions are involved, logic often goes out the window.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> It can happen, but it's unlikely. Often, the only way to do that is to drift apart physically, but remain like friends on an emotional level, and then have a mutual understanding and acceptance of that drifting apart. _Essencially, the two people need to drift apart at almost the same rate on the same levels._
> 
> *Obviously that's very hard to do, and as such why most divorces require lawyers.
> 
> When emotions are involved, logic often goes out the window.*


Ah, your explanations in italics worth further exploring, Mr. Kingsfan. Thank you for the good idea.

And your statement in Bold, well, sadly, that is the reality


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

That is easy don't get married...


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

ladybird said:


> That is easy don't get married...


agree, don't get married to a person whom we aren't sexually compatible with.

You Western people has the freedom of choice.

Some of us Asians aren't so lucky.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

TheStranger said:


> Love always means care for well-being of other. From that care comes will to compromise something in order to make the other happier.
> 
> But it's not possible to compromise everything. There can be no happy compromise when planning a family for instance. I'm not sure if compromise is possible when drives are mismatched.
> 
> Love is not the ultimate power. It will get crushed by things we cannot agree on and who are important to us.


I agree that it is not possible to compromise everything.

But sexual satisfaction should be a compromisable thing, as long as there are mutual love, mutual respect, and genuine desire to achieve a healthy sexual relations within marriage.

I wrote something like this below in other thread but I can't find it again, so here it is, I am rewriting it.

Suppose a couple, LD wife and HD husband. No health problems, no marital problems, no aging problems. Just LD being LD and HD being natural.

1.If wife not in the mood for PIV sex, there's always BJs

2.If wife not in the mood for giving BJs, there's always HJs

3.If wife too tired for HJs, she could strip naked, hugs and kiss husband while husband masturbate.

4.If wife too shy to strip naked, she could turn on porn film (her choice), then hugs and kiss husband while husband masturbate.

See, there are so many ways to compromise. Those 4 options above are just examples. All are achievable if they are sincere effort out of love, respect, and genuine desire to achieve the very best for the marriage.

But, If LD wife won't even give point 3 and/or 4 to husband, then their marriage isn't worth salvaging for. That means wife doesn't care at all about husband's sexual well-being.

Also, if 3 and 4 becomes regular norm, and normal PIV sex always being refused, it means the HD person compromises too much.

And all points are irrelevant if given with grumbling and complaining... "are you done yet?!?!? I am tired?!?! Why so long!!?!? I am bored!!"... that would be major turn-off

Likewise, if HD insists on going all in at all the times, discounting other options, it means HD being inconsiderate, and that's not the way to maintain a good marriage with a known LD person.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> But sexual satisfaction should be a compromisable thing, as long as there are mutual love, mutual respect, and genuine desire to achieve a healthy sexual relations within marriage.


In theory, it should. But 50+ pages of threads in this forum proves otherwise.



> 1.If wife not in the mood for PIV sex, there's always BJs
> 
> 2.If wife not in the mood for giving BJs, there's always HJs
> 
> ...


Interesting examples.  As a HD partner in my relationship I would refuse all four suggestions for a simple reason that she's not in the mood. I don't want duty sex, never had. 

I'd rather settle for my loving mistress aka the right hand.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

TheStranger said:


> In theory, it should. But 50+ pages of threads in this forum proves otherwise.
> 
> Interesting examples.  As a HD partner in my relationship I would refuse all four suggestions for a simple reason that she's not in the mood. I don't want duty sex, never had.
> 
> I'd rather settle for my loving mistress aka the right hand.


Duty sex is when she gives sex for favors either chores or whatnot. A LD wife having sex when they're not in the mood is not duty sex. It's more accurately called compromise or love or fear. Maybe duty sex is what your wife does but it wasn't expressed in this particular comment.

Don't be afraid to ask for something the don't be afraid to accept it is a common theme in NMMNG.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

TheStranger said:


> As a HD partner in my relationship I would refuse all four suggestions for a simple reason that she's not in the mood. I don't want duty sex, never had.


Eh, there are different definitions of duty sex. 

Spouses can be not in the mood, but if they are sincere in their effort to make the partner happy, I say take it and enjoy. It's their way to feel needed. It's also their way to feel "in control" of their partner's sexual well being. 

I already mentioned above that all options 1-4 when given while grumbling is a turn off.

So, which one is duty sex to you?



> I'd rather settle for my loving mistress aka the right hand.


Good for you if your wife approves your masturbatory actions. But not all wives does. As some kind of authority figure (can't help it, they didnt know I am often as clueless as they are), sometimes people came to me for advice...and I actually have a wife complaining to me that she caught her husband masturbating... 

And in this part of the world, the concept that masturbation is healthy and normal, is not accepted yet.. too bad


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> A LD wife having sex when they're not in the mood is not duty sex. It's more accurately called compromise or love or fear.


Okay, but if they're busy examining a blemish on their upper arm or watching the leaves rustle in the wind through a window or asking you to hurry it up, then it's hard to distinguish from duty sex


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Okay, but if they're busy examining a blemish on their upper arm or watching the leaves rustle in the wind through a window or asking you to hurry it up, then it's hard to distinguish from duty sex


that's why in my four points before, I stated (here in bold):



> And all points are irrelevant if (sex is)given with grumbling and complaining... "are you done yet?!?!? I am tired?!?! Why so long!!?!? I am bored!!"... that would be major turn-off[/b]


sex given while grumbling, complaining and/or being disconnected/indifferent/unattentive to the partner, to me, is a total turn off..


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Okay, but if they're busy examining a blemish on their upper arm or watching the leaves rustle in the wind through a window or asking you to hurry it up, then it's hard to distinguish from duty sex


No doubt. When doing that they're insensitive and passive aggressive. If she's openly disinterest I'd call it what is it. Just sex. I'd roll her over just have sex.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> Don't be afraid to ask for something the don't be afraid to accept it is a common theme in NMMNG.


What's NMMNG?



john_lord_b3 said:


> Spouses can be not in the mood, but if they are sincere in their effort to make the partner happy, I say take it and enjoy. It's their way to feel needed. It's also their way to feel "in control" of their partner's sexual well being.
> 
> I already mentioned above that all options 1-4 when given while grumbling is a turn off.
> 
> So, which one is duty sex to you?



All of the above. 

Even if she makes sincere effort I won't have sex with her when she's not in the mood. Reason is simple, if I know she's doing it just to please me then I can't be happy about it. This principle extends on all my relations. 

If my son is not in the mood to play with me then we wont play. If my friend is not in the mood to have a drink with me then we won't go even if he says nothing against for friendship sake.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

TheStranger said:


> What's NMMNG?


I kept seeing NMMNG and heard the term "No More Mr Nice Guy". I read it to figure out what references people were making; it's not talking about a guy who's nice by the way.

Anyway not being afraid to ask for what you want and not being afraid to get it was something that made sense to me. Good thing I didn't read it during my first marriage or I might still be married to that *****.

MMSL is another one I haven't looked at but people reference. "Married Man Sex Life".


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

TheStranger said:


> Even if she makes sincere effort I won't have sex with her when she's not in the mood. Reason is simple, if I know she's doing it just to please me then I can't be happy about it. This principle extends on all my relations.
> 
> If my son is not in the mood to play with me then we wont play. If my friend is not in the mood to have a drink with me then we won't go even if he says nothing against for friendship sake.


Ah, ok, so it's the matter of principles. I understand.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

detikHealth : Lebih Puas dengan Selingkuhan Ketimbang Suami, Harus Bagaimana?

If you could read Indonesian, this article is about a 32 years old woman, who has been married for 5 years, then she has an affair, and she said she has more satisfaction bonking her secret lover (her superior at the office, actually) than her husband, because her lover has larger tool than her husband's, and are more "romantic" in bed.

Any comments about this in the light of our recent LD/HD/ND discussion?

What if LD is not really LD, but simply a manifestation of being less satisfied with the spouse's physical characteristics and lovemaking techniques?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> What if LD is not really LD, but simply a manifestation of being less satisfied with the spouse's physical characteristics and lovemaking techniques?


I think there will always be some of that, but I still believe the typical LD person would be LD for many reasons outside of the bedroom, whether medical, depression, dissatisfaction with the relationship, etc.

I also wonder if the women in that article actually craves sex more due to the man's 'size' or if she subconciously crazes the romance and excitement the other man gives her while her husband isn't good in the relationship in general.

Often, the real reason we do somethings in our life that is a change don't surface until years down the road.


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## mildlyperplexed (Feb 3, 2013)

Ive always thought size was a male fixation. Ive had larger and smaller partners but its never been a deciding factor in the bedroom.

edit: perhaps its different after childbirth?


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

The article above clearly indicates that the women herself said that the size of his affair partner's tool (and ability to romance her) is what make her cannot stop bonking with this partner. So, in this case, it isn't male fixation.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> I also wonder if the women in that article actually craves sex more due to the man's 'size' or if she subconciously crazes the romance and excitement the other man gives her while her husband isn't good in the relationship in general.


This could also be a factor, but she actually mentioned the tool size, so surely it is a factor. Tool size and ability to romance. But she also said that this affair partner is her superior at office. Maybe some women find this combination (tool, romantic and superior) irresistible.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Couple of years ago I found TAM by accident with a random search related to how to being a decent husband because I knew I wasn't all the time. I pretty much did whatever I wanted to if I didn't think she had a legitimate reason to dislike it then it wasn't her place to care. If I wanted to play golf or ride the bike well that's what I did. On the flip side, I would have liked sex more often but it wasn't worth getting shot down. I don't like that very much. Plus she wasn't shutting me down completely. 

So some poster early on pointed me to a book called His Needs/Her Needs so I read it. Then I asked my wife to read it and she did as well. Wow knowing what each other found important fixed what problems we had. She's more than willing to let me get her in the mood whenever and I do a better job at being more considerate.

Point is, I don't think LD/HD is independant of other dynamics most of the time. It's a combination of knowing what each other expects and not feeling taken advantage of. I doubt me reading anything would have helped alone. It's because we both read something that we both decided was a good way to go about it.


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## happysnappy (Jan 8, 2013)

I'm in agreement. I think it is often not ld/hd at all but an issue of meeting needs. I am HD. SO is MD (medium). However in our relationship it is not about drive at all but about wanting that closeness and connection. Sex is great because that's as close as we can get to each other not because we only desire sex. I do desire that more often than he does not a ton but some and he recognizes this as well and is willing to do his best to meet that need.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

happysnappy said:


> I'm in agreement. I think it is often not ld/hd at all but an issue of meeting needs. I am HD. SO is MD (medium). However in our relationship it is not about drive at all but about wanting that closeness and connection. *Sex is great because that's as close as we can get to each other not because we only desire sex*. I do desire that more often than he does not a ton but some and he recognizes this as well and is willing to do his best to meet that need.


:iagree:

Thank you for so eloquently describing this!

In a healthy marriage, sex is for emotional bonding, not just to "get his rocks off" (I picked up this word from an obviously anti-male poster here  ). So I could relate to what you are saying... cheap and easy sex is not difficult to find, but real fulfilling sex with a person we love...wow that is totally on a much higher level of consciousness altogether!


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> Wow knowing what each other found important fixed what problems we had. She's more than willing to let me get her in the mood whenever and I do a better job at being more considerate.
> 
> Point is, I don't think LD/HD is independant of other dynamics most of the time. It's a combination of knowing what each other expects and not feeling taken advantage of. I doubt me reading anything would have helped alone. It's because we both read something that we both decided was a good way to go about it.


It's wonderful,wonderful, wonderful that you two had found a good solution! :smthumbup:

I believe now we have found a happy middle ground in how to enjoy a HD vs LD marriage. You can be a good example!

BUT, your method worked because you both genuinely love each other, respect each other and sexually attracted to each other, is that correct?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> It's wonderful,wonderful, wonderful that you two had found a good solution! :smthumbup:
> 
> I believe now we have found a happy middle ground in how to enjoy a HD vs LD marriage. You can be a good example!
> 
> BUT, your method worked because you both genuinely love each other, respect each other and sexually attracted to each other, is that correct?


That is correct. However I think more so after.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Also, what about closet bisexuality? Surely this also could be masked or interpreted as LD? 

Check out this post, and let me hear what you guys think

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/67002-infidelity-ok-sexless-marriage-3.html#post1422447



> At the same time I believe there is something going on with her fixation with porn the last few years we did have sex. I suggested it to help get us (really me) get in the mood. Then she wanted it on every time. Sometimes I'd watch her as she got aroused and noticed it was almost always during couples friendly lesbian sex. I asked her once if she likes girls, and she said definitely not. She said they are just more attractive and sensual then ugly male porn stars. She never wants to watch scenes where they look like "animals". The moment sex was over, if it was a scene with a male actor she thought it was gross and demanded that I turn it off. I don't think she likes girls but what am I to read from that?


Perhaps the wife is actually a closet bisexual and slowly drifted towards same-sex preference? That would explain why she behaved like that.

This is all speculation off course.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> So some poster early on pointed me to a book called His Needs/Her Needs so I read it. Then I asked my wife to read it and she did as well. Wow knowing what each other found important fixed what problems we had. She's more than willing to let me get her in the mood whenever and I do a better job at being more considerate.


His Needs/Her Needs is a great book. I tried to get my fiancee to read it a few years ago, but she was convinced it was a book about how a man needed sex and wouldn't read it. I think her mindset has changed since then, but now I can't seem to find the book. I'm going to look for it again tonight and ask her again to read it, and I may read it again as well. It's not the perfect book, but it sure helped me to understand things a bit better from a female standpoint and led me to making a few changes which have been for the better.

That said, this message board has been more helpful than anything, if you can read things with an unbiased view.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> That said, this message board has been more helpful than anything, if you can read things with an unbiased view.


Interesting.  I was just thinking the opposite how this message board amplifies my unhappiness. The reason is that I've met several women here that could make me sexually a very, very happy man.


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## mildlyperplexed (Feb 3, 2013)

TheStranger said:


> Interesting.  I was just thinking the opposite how this message board amplifies my unhappiness. The reason is that I've met several women here that could make me sexually a very, very happy man.


They probably all have annoying habits that would irritate the hell out of you or cant hold a conversation on the things that are important to you or think your hobbies are mental or have some other flaw that you just cant get past.

Dwelling on one aspect is always going to leave you feeling that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

mildlyperplexed said:


> They probably all have annoying habits that would irritate the hell out of you...


Well, I did use the word: sexually. I think it's an important one. I know that there is greener grass for me - sexually.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

TheStranger said:


> Interesting.  I was just thinking the opposite how this message board amplifies my unhappiness. The reason is that I've met several women here that could make me sexually a very, very happy man.


If you focus on that aspect yes. That is a bummer for me as well a bit, but I try not to think of that. Even if I was single, and those women were single (which they aren't) the odds I'd meet them are remote.

No, I'd rather focus on using the wisdom behind their (and other posters) words and try and apply it to my relationship. I have seen some good strides in some things since coming here (for example, BJ's were almost totally missing from our relationship and now they are roughly 1-2 a month, which is about the max I really even want). A lot of the recent improvement sexually for me has been summoned through the wisdom gained on TAM.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

yes Mr. Kingsfan, I learned a lot here, and a large percentage of good lessons I have is by reading your posts, and also posts by Mrs. Lyris, Mr. Jacquen, and likewise brilliant, wise people.


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## mildlyperplexed (Feb 3, 2013)

I realised that Ive been waiting for hubby to initiate because I want him to and I don't like to feel like a sex pest. All that happened was we had less sex (shocking I know!). After reading round here Ive jumped him two nights in a row and he hasn't complained yet 

TY TAM


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Eh, BTW could we go back to our HD vs LD discussions? I recently asked this question:



john_lord_b3 said:


> Also, what about closet bisexuality? Surely this also could be masked or interpreted as LD?
> 
> Check out this post, and let me hear what you guys think
> 
> ...


Here is another post which makes me think that way:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/67027-cruel-unfeeling-wife-2.html#post1425520


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cletus,
Absolutely beautiful post.

I am going to add a few things here.

Do not have children with someone until you are confident that you have achieved some basic level of compatibility with. It might suck to end a marriage after a year on the basis of incompatibility, but it is the best choice if you and your partner are out of synch.

At some point you need to have the conversation with your partner about compromise. The whole notion of the ld having total control is not good. Imagine if the main breadwinner exerted total control over finances without regard to partner input. Not all that different. Sex and money are both about control.




QUOTE=Cletus;1400608]So now for the "How do you manage it?" part of the answer. This will be longer than I usually care to write. It addresses those who are in sexually mismatched marriages, where frequency or taste is a constant issue, but not sexless marriages. A marriage with no sex at all is not a marriage and should be treated accordingly.

Well, you manage it like any other great frustration in life. With ups and downs, small successes and spectacular failures. You do not escape unscathed, and you do not really win. But maybe you can survive.

Some days you feel like a jackass for wanting more than your spouse is willing to give. Other days you feel like an even bigger ass for thinking that your spouse's willingness is even part of the equation when it's clear that this a fundamental part of their personality. Then a week later you're angry because, dang it, you only get to go around once and you didn't sign up for this when you put your signature on the monogamy and fidelity line.

So at first you fight about it. You pull out Masters and Johnson and point your finger at the page that says "See? People in our demographic are having sex 3.29 times a week and we're only getting it on once or twice! Why can't we be normal?" You exchange harsh words, hurt feelings, and tears, but it doesn't really change, because it can't (and it's best if you understand this R.F.N). Admittedly, when you're young, you'll take almost anything you can get so you let it ride. The LD person sets the agenda and the time table, and you try to enjoy the ride because it's the only train in town.

After a few years, the ups and downs have shallowed out to a little more gentle slope, if you're lucky and patient, but every once in a while the hibernating bear comes back with a vengeance. You've held back your needs for freakin' ever, and you start to realize that maybe this relationship isn't going to improve, sexually speaking. So even though you don't make too many waves, you start making a few demands. She digs in her heels too, because by now she's gotten enough feedback from friends and psychology self help books to say "You know what? I'm fine. I'm not abnormal. There are lots of women like me. Why can't you just leave me alone about this?" 

Now you have kids, and a mortgage, and a life, and perhaps a partner with whom you really have a lot in common, but still can't agree in the bedroom on just about anything. The LD partner continues to set the agenda. You realize that you have no say whatsoever in you sexual identity. She decides when you'll have sex, where, and how, even why. You play along because it's still the only game in town. You try to push the boundaries - maybe she'll let me touch her today - and when the inevitably poor reaction is realized, you storm out of the room, frustrated, hurt - but you knew that was coming all along. You knew it would happen, but you couldn't help yourself. You had to try! Just maybe if you're patient and caring and gentle enough, you'll open up this impenetrable shell just a crack.

So now you have this cancerous resentment growing inside of you. You've been married to a stunted sexual being for 15 or more years. You've sublimated your desire, your wants, your needs, and put them in the (seemingly) uncaring hands of another. You start to find ways to avoid sex altogether, because you don't even respect yourself for having become so utterly pathetic. You start to wonder if divorce is an option. Or if you'd be morally bankrupt for finding a mistress while still remaining true to the needs of your growing family. You start to wonder if the best years of your sexual life are going to pass before your eyes, unfulfilled and sterile as a desert. 

If you're at all like me, you're still just a little bit lucky. Because you haven't been a complete ass to your spouse the whole time, and because you still put at least some effort into your relationship as a whole, she's still actually wants to have sex with you, as long as she gets to set the boundaries. Your attraction never goes to zero. She makes the effort a few times a month to be there for you, so as long as you play by the rules, you can still share some intimacy and closeness. You long ago gave up on initiating sex because that's just an invitation to get shot down in flames. 

Better than a quarter century passes since you realized there might be a problem on your honeymoon. Finally you understand that your sexual prime really has passed you by, and yes, you really did miss out. There's nothing you can do about it now, so continuing to be angry is (and always was, really) just counterproductive. You have no further energy to argue about sex any longer - whenever it comes up, you just sigh and avoid the topic. You've softened over the years, so you realize that your spouse has never tried to hurt you. She is no more responsible for being the way she is than you are for being you, and she's not the problem. You're not the problem. Your mismatch is the problem, and there's precious little you can do to bridge the gap.

So you soldier on. You found someone to share a life with, and it's really a pretty good life when you think about it. You don't argue about money, or religion, or where to live, what movies to see, or what to do with your spare time. The kids leave the nest, but the nest doesn't really feel empty because you still have this person with whom you've shared over half of your life sitting one chair over. You start to notice that your sexual energy isn't what it used to be, so just maybe you'll find a happy place where sex is no longer the elephant in the bedroom it used to be. At least, you hope that's what happens.


====================

So how do you get through it? 

You avoid it if possible. There's no silver bullet. Do everything in your powers to never find yourself in this place.

You survive with extraordinary patience, even if you're not really known for that quality. If change comes, it will come glacially - never the product of force or harassment. You have to realize that every change, every attempt made on your partner's part, no matter how small to your greedy eyes, is an effort worthy of reward and recognition. Fail this, and you widen the already unbridgeable gap between you. Unless your partner has given you reason to believe otherwise, this isn't about her trying to inflict pain on you - this is a fundamental part of who she is inside. 

So you have to look for the compromise where it can be found. As the HD spouse, you will have to compromise more than your spouse. Sorry, that's just the reality. You will have to be willing to sublimate a large chunk of your desire for the good of the relationship. You will fail at times, you will lash out, and you will become resentful, maybe permanently, maybe only in spurts. 

Only you can decide if you can live like this. Not everyone can, and perhaps no one should. If you feel this way and don't have children, I urge you to get out now if you're society allows it. Take the lesson on to your next relationship. You are not a bad person if you discover that you can't be sexually happy with your partner, and that discovery ends your marriage. If you do have children, then your personal morals will have to dictate your choices.

And remember, if you stay, it will only get better for you when you let go of the anger and resentment you hold for your spouse and learn to enjoy what you have together, even if it's well below what you would consider ideal. It is still precious. 

I'm not there yet, but I'm still on the journey.[/QUOTE]


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> If you focus on that aspect yes. That is a bummer for me as well a bit, but I try not to think of that.


The main problem I'm having is complete lack of orgasms from her and this problem is pretty absent from this forums. When I came here, I kind of expected many, many more threads on this but now I feel alone and very inadequate even here.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

TheStranger said:


> The main problem I'm having is complete lack of orgasms from her and this problem is pretty absent from this forums. When I came here, I kind of expected many, many more threads on this but now I feel alone and very inadequate even here.


Why must you feel inadequate?

Not always having orgasm is normal for women.

Don't believe me, Check out this article:

Page 2: Sex Study Says Female Orgasm Eludes Majority of Women - ABC News



> ...Elisabeth Lloyd, a professor of history, philosophical science and biology at the Indiana University.
> 
> Lloyd's study of 80 years of previous sex research in her 2005 book, "The Case of the Female Orgasm," debunked theories that there is an evolutionary reason for the female orgasm.
> 
> ...


Don't just read my quote, go there to the article and read its entirety.

Now that we establish that not having orgasms are normal for women, therefore having orgasms are SPECIAL. Orgasms are special gift that you SHOULD be making SERIOUS attempts to give to your wife.

BUT, to create something SPECIAL like that requires TEAMWORK. She should tell you what you must be doing to make her orgasm. Without her directions, you're not doing teamwork, you're doing GUESSWORK, and it is doomed to fail.

IF all of your serious and sincere attempts failed, even after counselling.. therapy...toys. drugs.. food supplements.. treat her like a queen.. buying expensive gifts..be attentive...be caring..etc etc...

Then it's enough to say THAT's not YOUR problem... you have made serious sincere efforts...but you just can't fight mother nature...do NOT feel inadequate.. you are NOT a bad lover, if you have made serious efforts and failed.. you're just a victim of mother nature.. and we all now she's a b*y*tch   

Lighten up pal!


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> BUT, to create something SPECIAL like that requires TEAMWORK. She should tell you what you must be doing to make her orgasm. Without her directions, you're not doing teamwork, you're doing GUESSWORK, and it is doomed to fail.


And it failed, of course. The thing is, she doesn't know what to do. She says that touching herself is a different feeling that gets there and me touching her doesn't. She doesn't know why is that. That's a bitter pill to swallow.

She is an honest person. Sometimes brutally honest. I'm a cook of the family. She has on many occasions stated that what I did was - perfect. She'll use the same word for some nights out, road trips etc. Not for sex, not ever, not once...

Her confession that she doesn't really like receiving oral 2 weeks ago just amplified all those issues from before.

Efforts to 'lighten up' have failed and I fear it will get worse.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

I see. Why don't you two go to a sex therapist and see what's been missing in your lovemaking. Better to get expert opinion rather than relying on Guessworks...


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> I see. Why don't you two go to a sex therapist and see what's been missing in your lovemaking. Better to get expert opinion rather than relying on Guessworks...


There is no sex therapist in the vicinity. Nearest that I know of is 400km away. But, she doesn't think that something is missing.

If I would guess where the problem lies I would say that she is not relaxed enough. She admitted few times that sex doesn't really relax her and that she carries into the bed all issues from that day and in general. She can't leave them behind.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

TheStranger said:


> There is no sex therapist in the vicinity. Nearest that I know of is 400km away. But, she doesn't think that something is missing.
> 
> If I would guess where the problem lies I would say that she is not relaxed enough. She admitted few times that sex doesn't really relax her and that she carries into the bed all issues from that day and in general. She can't leave them behind.


Ah, that's a clue. Try to make love during vacation, or during a long holidays, where there are no pressures from daily working.

BTW, have you asked her, is orgasm important to _her_ ? Some women actually does not put too much importance in the physical orgasm itself, but more into the feelings of intimacy, closeness, being in control of their sexuality, and the intercourse itself. If she is actually does not care much about the ending, and more into the process, and are perfectly content, then why ruin a good life? Forcing her to have an orgasm may have a detrimental effect of giving her even more pressure.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Ah, that's a clue. Try to make love during vacation, or during a long holidays, where there are no pressures from daily working.


It's not possible. She can be stressed just about anything: work, parenting, health, curtains, spots on her new sweater, hair, skin.



> BTW, have you asked her, is orgasm important to _her_ ?


She accepted that she doesn't have them and she's fine with that.



> Some women actually does not put too much importance in the physical orgasm itself, but more into the feelings of intimacy, closeness, being in control of their sexuality, and the intercourse itself.


This is true for her also.



> If she is actually does not care much about the ending, and more into the process, and are perfectly content, then why ruin a good life?


I need it. It was my greatest sexual fantasy since my teenage days and still is. I want to be able to give that to her and it frustrates me that I can't. 

You're suggesting to give up my biggest fantasy and I don't know how to do that.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

TheStranger said:


> I need it. It was my greatest sexual fantasy since my teenage days and still is. I want to be able to give that to her and it frustrates me that I can't.
> 
> You're suggesting to give up my biggest fantasy and I don't know how to do that.


Eh ok, now I understand that it is not her problem (she's pretty content) but it's your problem because your greatest fantasy is to be able to give her a wonderful gift of an orgasm. It's very noble of you, Mr. Stranger. :smthumbup: 

Maybe other distinguished members of TAM has any advice for you? What about the ladies. Mrs. Lyris? Mrs. Holland? Mrs. Created2Write?


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> It's very noble of you, Mr. Stranger. :smthumbup:


Not sure about nobility.  It can be considered selfish as well because my desire ruins her content and has potential to ruin entire relationship. 

But, to be on topic here she's also a LD partner in our relationship. She's once or twice per month person and me 2/3 a week person. This is not such a big issue for us since we talked and she did suggest ways to get her in the mood more often. Granted it requires some effort on my part but we're able to get it to once a week frequency. The difference is handled by porn. She's not against it btw. and I think I could be content with that long term. But my insecurities are killing me unfortunately.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

TheStranger said:


> Not sure about nobility.  It can be considered selfish as well because my desire ruins her content and has potential to ruin entire relationship.
> 
> But, to be on topic here she's also a LD partner in our relationship. She's once or twice per month person and me 2/3 a week person. This is not such a big issue for us since we talked and she did suggest ways to get her in the mood more often. Granted it requires some effort on my part but we're able to get it to once a week frequency. The difference is handled by porn. She's not against it btw. and I think I could be content with that long term. But my insecurities are killing me unfortunately.


Mr. Stranger, what more you could ask for?? An LD wife who is not chronic refuser, and even allow you porn and masturbation? Wow. An modern woman-wife who does not demand orgasms? Wow. You should consider yourself blessed that she cares for your sexual needs. Now why don't you exert more energies into being the best husband that she could ever have? 

All those efforts and worries about giving her an orgasm, you could channel into being more attentive, being more caring, more loving, and more understanding of her needs. She will love you more and more and maybe one day your love to her will overwhelm her enough that she will have an orgasm!


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> You should consider yourself blessed that she cares for your sexual needs.


I need her to orgasm. This is my need. 

Analogy:
It's Christmas time. She gives me a really great gift. It's really great but all that delight, happiness and joy are mixed with the bitterness knowing that I have no gift for her. She says she doesn't mind, she just wants to see me happy but I mind. I want to see her face light up when she sees what I have for her and I have none. Joy of giving is for me much greater than receiving. It kills me that she'll soon have another great gift for me and I'll have none for her. I cannot stand it.



> All those efforts and worries about giving her an orgasm, you could channel into being more attentive, being more caring, more loving, and more understanding of her needs. She will love you more and more and maybe one day your love to her will overwhelm her enough that she will have an orgasm!


It's a nice thought. I was convinced that it would happen this way for years. Not any more. Reality is different I'm afraid.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

TheStranger said:


> The main problem I'm having is complete lack of orgasms from her and this problem is pretty absent from this forums. When I came here, I kind of expected many, many more threads on this but now I feel alone and very inadequate even here.


Don't feel alone. I'm in the exact same boat as you. I can count the number of orgasms I've given my fiancee on one hand and have fingers left over. But, like your wife, she doesn't care about it much, has little guidance to give me in what she wants, or what she wants to try, and won't allow me to give her oral or even finger stimulation. It's a very tough road to hoe.



TheStranger said:


> And it failed, of course. The thing is, she doesn't know what to do. She says that touching herself is a different feeling that gets there and me touching her doesn't. She doesn't know why is that. That's a bitter pill to swallow.


Yep, agreed. It's like she tells you that you touching her/going down on her doesn't do anything for her, but she also won't give you guidance on how to get there. It's like going on a road trip to a city, but you are blindfloded and led onto some backroad and then asked to just find your way to your destination without even knowing where you are or being given a map.



TheStranger said:


> There is no sex therapist in the vicinity. Nearest that I know of is 400km away.


You sure you're not my twin? I think the closest sex therapist to us is like 600 KM away. It's why I haven't even brought the idea up.



john_lord_b3 said:


> Mr. Stranger, what more you could ask for?? An LD wife who is not chronic refuser, and even allow you porn and masturbation? Wow. An modern woman-wife who does not demand orgasms? Wow. You should consider yourself blessed that she cares for your sexual needs. Now why don't you exert more energies into being the best husband that she could ever have?


Sorry JLB, but this is spoken like someone whose never been there thinks. It shows. A) She's not a cronic refuser, but even at once per week, that's still 1/3 of what he wants, so he's still only getting 33% of his desire fulfilled. B) Not demanding orgasms is nice, but not wanting them isn't exactly an ego booster. How would you feel if your wife/partner told you she'd rather you just get yourself off and not bother spending any energy giving her an orgasm, even if you are willing to do anything to get her there? That's basically how it feels. C) It's hard to strive to be the best husband when you question if you are even being allowed to try to be the best husband in the bedroom.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Your undying love for your wife is admirable, Mr. Stranger. Please, do not torture yourself with your obsession, science and mother nature has already shown that not all woman are capable of orgasm. That does not make you any less of a man.



kingsfan said:


> Sorry JLB, but this is spoken like someone whose never been there thinks. It shows. A) She's not a cronic refuser, but even at once per week, that's still 1/3 of what he wants, so he's still only getting 33% of his desire fulfilled. B) Not demanding orgasms is nice, but not wanting them isn't exactly an ego booster. How would you feel if your wife/partner told you she'd rather you just get yourself off and not bother spending any energy giving her an orgasm, even if you are willing to do anything to get her there? That's basically how it feels. C) It's hard to strive to be the best husband when you question if you are even being allowed to try to be the best husband in the bedroom.


Eh, you're right Mr. Kingsfan, I was never in that situation. And the way you put it, now I understand Mr. Stranger's anxiety.

It is as if he is enrolled in an University, and at thesis time, his professor never examine his methods, never correct his papers, never guide his approaches. Just mumbling "ok continue".. "no you're not incorrect, but please continue".. etc etc..

...with no guidance at all... I am sure he will be anxious and always confused "am I a good student? Will I pass?"

Tough place to be, now I understand..


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

TheStranger said:


> The main problem I'm having is complete lack of orgasms from her and this problem is pretty absent from this forums. When I came here, I kind of expected many, many more threads on this but now I feel alone and very inadequate even here.



Stranger.....man I feel your pain....

My wife was like this from 1990 to 2003. I was frustrated about it all those years and didnt understand it. I always thought it would get better. She did have sex with me, and it was ok for me sometimes, but generally it was frustrating. I asked about it and tried everything! I mean everything...books...toys.talking...(female friendly)...etc etc...

FINALLY, she tells me about her fetist...can't have an O unless thinking about this particular thing....S&M related... in a way..very specific..only one thing....not sexual to anyone else Ive ever heard of or even read about...

She hates it about herself, ashamed etc etc. 

I was surely mad. 

We worked with it for a while then she gave up.

Came up again last year in a different way....at age 45 she decided she had some sex drive.

So now 23 years later she has em 3 x per month or so, only in a very specific body position, I can do PIV at the time, but she also must have her own fingers....no vibes interest her or anything like that...and only if she is "in the mood" to think about "her thing.."

It sucks, but I know it could be far worse.

Its not anything actually bad, but it hurts that she cant get that from me. I really dont think its possible for her.

Anyway, we used to have sex only about 1x per week. Now its much more frequent, depending...could be 3-6x in a week. 

If I let it go though she might initiate once a week usually Sunday am when nothing else is going on.

I still have to push for most of that...initiate...occasionally get shot down, mostly dont initiate on weekdays, things like that....sometimes I just do and she knows she is generally expected to say yes, but she will object if tired etc.

She claims she likes sex now sometimes whereas in the past she generally found it uncomfortable...mentally.

I think her hormones changed, I think she got a little more comfortable with herself, oh and getting a huge crush on a movie star last year really got her going too....

Actually that movie star crush, which drove me nuts, actually was a great thing for me as that happening a year ago is what increased our frequency and since then Ive basically expected it to stay at the level even though her crush with the movie star is probably worn off.....

Anyway....lots of wives dont cum.

I recently talked to a 70 year old friend who is actually having a torrid affair with a 65 year old woman who is someone he had an affair with 30 years ago! He is married over 40 years.

One of his frustrations with his wife...not his affair partner...is that she would never orgasm ever...

And she also had an affair when they were in their 40's and told him she did it for the great sex.....

This is a big problem and leads to lots of resentment..

You need to try to find out what the problem is with your wife...

I was absolutely stunned at the time...


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

fetishwife said:


> I think her hormones changed, I think she got a little more comfortable with herself, oh and getting a huge crush on a movie star last year really got her going too....
> 
> Actually that movie star crush, which drove me nuts, actually was a great thing for me as that happening a year ago is what increased our frequency...


Well, that's good to hear! So the movie star "pump her tyres" but you're the one who "ride her bike" 

The benefit is all yours!

That's what movie stars are for! :smthumbup:


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> It's like going on a road trip to a city, but you are blindfloded and led onto some backroad and then asked to just find your way to your destination without even knowing where you are or being given a map.





fetishwife said:


> Stranger.....man I feel your pain....
> 
> My wife was like this from 1990 to 2003. I was frustrated about it all those years and didnt understand it. I always thought it would get better.


Thanks guys for understanding. We're off topic slightly with this and I do have my own thread so I'll switch there.

Which movie star? James Bond?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Please don't read if you are an alcoholic. 


TS,
The inability to relax and be in the moment during sex is very common for women in a ltr. 

I say this with no intention of offending anyone, if my wife suffered from that, I would encourage her to join me for a hard cardio workout, a shower together with a couple glasses of wine. And then have sex. Endorphins plus a little alcohol are a magic mix. 

FYI: not that I couldn't focus, but when I was younger and much more tense from work, I would run, have a scotch double, hop in the shower and then play with my wife. Lying in bed after I would feel this intense euphoria. 







TheStranger said:


> There is no sex therapist in the vicinity. Nearest that I know of is 400km away. But, she doesn't think that something is missing.
> 
> If I would guess where the problem lies I would say that she is not relaxed enough. She admitted few times that sex doesn't really relax her and that she carries into the bed all issues from that day and in general. She can't leave them behind.


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

Which movie star? James Bond? [/QUOTE]

Thats the one...:smthumbup:


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> I say this with no intention of offending anyone, if my wife suffered from that, I would encourage her to join me for a hard cardio workout, a shower together with a couple glasses of wine. And then have sex. Endorphins plus a little alcohol are a magic mix.


It's a great advice and I know it too. A glass of wine was enough that she'll open up sexually to allow me push her boundaries a small bit. 

But, she quit wine when she conceived and she is still breastfeeding so no alcohol.


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

alcohol helps my wife sometimes too...but its not really something to encourage too much....

"have another drink..." hum...Ive done it I admit, but its got downsides....

For me I dont drink too much so then I smell alcohol breath!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Just to clarify, this is not about getting someone drunk so they can get past their aversion to a partner. This is about a mild buzz to allow someone to quiet the buzz of anxiety about day to day stuff that isn't critical. 





fetishwife said:


> alcohol helps my wife sometimes too...but its not really something to encourage too much....
> 
> "have another drink..." hum...Ive done it I admit, but its got downsides....
> 
> For me I dont drink too much so then I smell alcohol breath!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

john_lord_b3 said:


> *First: How to avoid HD and LD marriage *. I believe many active Forum members here has emphasized the massive importance of sexual compatibilities of married couple. HD and LD marriage is to be avoided, that's the general consensus. Therefore, let's discuss how to avoid such marriage to take place at the first place. How HD and LD could discover the level of their own drives and be honest about it to their partner before marriage.


 We have a # of sons....one of my worries in their choosing a wife is > will she be LOW DRIVE ? I have read far too many stories here to know...this has the potential to destroy his Spirit....depending on how such a woman handles her Low Drive in relation to HIS driving NEED for the physical. 

I foresee our sons being like their father...they are the type that Love hard, they are honorable..they will take the hit...if the wife doesn't want it...if they have kids, they will suffer to uphold their vows & be there for their children. How utterly important to be on the same sexual wavelength before one walks down the aisle. 

One of the greatest gifts a woman can give her man is her passionate enthusiastic DESIRE for him.... That has the potential to brighten every passage of his life & ensure Happiness... a fulfilling sex life is THAT important, this I believe.







Sex Is an Emotional Need 









We are very Open with our sons in







TALK...They go to Youth Group which teaches to wait till Marriage...How many can manage this (although we did)....at the very least they hold the *Romantic View of sex*... (must have the emotional entanglement & commitment)...

I encourage them strongly to Talk OPENLY, unashamedly with their GF's on this issue...read Sex books in preparation (plenty on my shelf), Talk about masterbation, fantasies, viewing of porn even....TALK...SHARE ....Express expectations ..... 

For the small minority who choose /attempt to wait for Intercourse till their Wedding night ..I feel they need to TOUCH each other... explore each others bodies, it can take the edge off to masterbate each other ....This way the Man KNOWS & can feel how HIS Touch excites her, if she can orgasm by his hand...anything less I feel would be foolish...That is just my personal view. Christians may feel that is going too far, but I would disagree with them.. I see the "Fusion" as the becoming "One" ...as this can create life. 

I SO agree with Thundarr here >>>



Thundarr said:


> *Patience and taking time* is a simple concept but is the biggest bang for the buck. If couples waited to marry until after the new has worn off then patterns of incompatibility like LD/HD would surface. Also, blatent bait and switch becomes obvious after a couple of years.


 Me & mine dated for 7 + yrs before we married, I knew his personality, quirks, irritations (very few) as well as he knew mine.. even though we knew nothing of the "5 Love Languages"... we were amazingly insync ...learned yrs later, we had them in the same order ! 

Never Never Never Underestimate Compatibilty ... do not ignore RED FLAGS... *Communication* is everything... learn *conflict resolution* before walking down the aisle ....KNOW who you are marrying...only *TIME* will give you this...otherwise you just got Lucky ! 



john_lord_b3 said:


> *Second: If, for whatever reason, the HD and LD marriage already happened, how both sides could make an effort to enjoy the marriage*? Certainly this is not easy, as many in this forum could testify from their own unpleasantly sad personal experiences. But there are people who think that this is _workable_ and _achievable_. We'd like to hear from these people, and what advice they offer to help balance HD needs of sex with LD's need of independence.


My answer lies in this thread.... 










Now granted, if Resentment is built up, that will not work.. so this needs to be overcome 1st >> 









A great book to sort all of this out here >> 

When Your Sex Drives Don't Match: Discover Your Libido Types to Create a Mutually Satisfying Sex Life 

There are 10 libido types:

1. *Sensual*
2. *Erotic*
3. *Compulsive*
4. *Dependent*
5. *Stressed*
6. *Disinterested*
7. *Detached*
8. *Addictive*
9. *Entitled*
10. *Reactive* 

Can figure out yours here>>>  Identifying your Libido Type 

Also a Lover Style Test CLICK HERE - just for a little more understanding of each other...

The Classic Lover 
The Exotic Lover 
The Suave Lover 
The Carnal Lover 
The Devoted Lover 
The Surprising Lover
The Romantic Lover 
The Liberated Lover





> *Third: How to terminate HD and LD marriage on grounds of sexual incompatibility? *We need people with legal backgrounds to describe the process on how HD partner could ask for a divorce (or even nullification) of the marriage on grounds of LD chronic refusal of sex, or LD partner could ask for a divorce on grounds of HD chronic disrespect for LD's rights to his/her own body. We also need people with backgrounds in psychology or counselling to describe what should be done by HD and LD people to get over their unpleasant marriage experience and start a new life.


 There is so many Incompatibilities but THIS ONE seems to get a very harsh judgement from outsiders, saying how Shallow someone is to leave over







, especially children will not understand.... I think this is just as vital for happiness as any other issue that gives grounds for Divorce.




Thundarr said:


> *A little understanding of expectations.* We assume the other person has the same expectations and needs that we do. It's pretty rare when it pans out that way though. We're left working our butts off to give our partner what they don't really care much about and being pissed about not being appreciated.


 This comes down to those Love Languages again.... From either book... KNOW their future spouse & what WORKS for them ...how they feel loved/ admired/ cherished/ wanted... what they expect, what their DEAL BREAKERS ARE... we all have them and they are different !



> This book >> The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love That Lasts:
> 
> 1. *Physical Touch*
> 2. *Acts of Service*
> ...






> *Respecting that love does not conquer all* is vitally important. How many times does incompatibility turn to resentment which eventually overshadows love.















Kari said:


> Relating to avoiding mismatches, I've been thinking about trying to write up a marriage compatibility questionnaire, and then posting it on TAM and other marriage sites. .....
> 
> There could be sections on romance, communication, quality time, housework division, job/career plans, budgets, joint/separate finances, relationship with extended family, child rearing approaches, timing/number of kids desired, attitude on pets, attitudes on relocation/places to live, attitudes on keeping in shape, willingness to go to marriage counseling or individual counseling, willingness to read books on relationships, willingness to go to a doctor, religious beliefs, maybe even history of child abuse, etc..
> The answers would be multiple choice mostly and you could always skip questions (maybe there would be a 'too personal' answer).


 LOVE your idea... do it ! I am huge proponent of "Compatibility"...did a thread on this too, because I feel it IS that darn important ~ before engagement even.... Pm me Kari... love to be a part of it.. I feel understanding one's *Temperaments* is also HUGE in this, but rarely mentioned... 











TheStranger said:


> I need it. It was my greatest sexual fantasy since my teenage days and still is. I want to be able to give that to her and it frustrates me that I can't.
> 
> You're suggesting to give up my biggest fantasy and I don't know how to do that.





TheStranger said:


> She says she doesn't mind, she just wants to see me happy but I mind. I want to see her face light up when she sees what I have for her and I have none. Joy of giving is for me much greater than receiving. It kills me that she'll soon have another great gift for me and I'll have none for her. I cannot stand it.


The way you describe your feelings is something I am familiar with , I KNOW my husband is LIKE YOU... he is so very sensitive to MY DESIRE / MY PLEASURE, it appears paramount to his happiness even... I do feel some of this is from his inborn temperament (he is an ISFJ...they are born GIVERS)... Though this is not a problem for us ...as I orgasm easy ... but I've seen him tear up once - with the near thought I was loosing my drive, or couldn't orgasm .. it kinda blew my mind, but in it's own way... I LOVE him being this way... cause I want my orgasm....I'd even demand it ... so in this WE are compatible... if he didn't care....a "wham bam thank you Maam" type - I'd want to slug him!! 

I do feel since this is something she can not achieve though... and if you are causing her pressure, which will only cause her to feel worse...it's a bad merry go round you are both on.....
* the only answer to this is to "grieve" this desire/ hope *... .acknowledge it ...it's loss, it's expectation.. .because this is causing you great hurt ~ and her .....and deal with what you have before you..concentrate on the GOOD.... I know this sounds so final... but really... if it is holding you back, causing you such hurt... you love this woman... she loves you... it needs to be put on a lower rung of importance... 

You've heard the Serenity Prayer I am sure...which many of us have had to deal with in other areas of our lives.. this is yours... and finding that peace with it. 












> *fetishwife said*: She claims she likes sex now sometimes whereas in the past she generally found it uncomfortable...mentally.
> 
> I think her hormones changed, I think she got a little more comfortable with herself, oh and getting a huge crush on a movie star last year really got her going too..


This will explain that a little >>


> *Balance the seesaw*. When they were first married, the man remembered, he always took the sexual lead, pulling his wife close and whispering his desire to make love. But now, 20 years later, she often makes the first move.
> 
> Again, hormonal changes are bringing the couple into closer balance. Men and women both produce testosterone and estrogen, but the proportion of each changes over the years. The male's shifting levels of estrogen and testosterone may make him more willing to follow than to lead, happy for his wife to set the pace. And as a woman's estrogen declines and her testosterone becomes proportionately greater, she may become more assertive.





john_lord_b3 said:


> Well, that's good to hear! So the movie star "pump her tyres" but you're the one who "ride her bike"
> 
> The benefit is all yours!
> 
> That's what movie stars are for! :smthumbup:


 This happened to me too, I had this "Obsession" with British actor Richard Armitage... seeing him in the highly Romantic courting "North & South"...then playing Guy of Gisbourne in "Robin Hood". 

Husband got all the benefits...he wasn't complaining... My sex drive took on such a HIGH, I seriously questioned if I had a Sex Addiction, this is kinda funny looking back. Great time though, even if a little tormenting being the High Driver....he did all he could, which makes him my HERO!


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Madame, your advice here 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...void-how-enjoy-how-get-out-8.html#post1438295

are INCREDIBLE!



SimplyAmorous said:


> We have a # of sons....one of my worries in their choosing a wife is > will she be LOW DRIVE ? I have read far too many stories here to know...this has the potential to destroy his Spirit....depending on how such a woman handles her Low Drive in relation to HIS driving NEED for the physical.
> 
> I foresee our sons being like their father...they are the type that Love hard, they are honorable..they will take the hit...if the wife doesn't want it...if they have kids, they will suffer to uphold their vows & be there for their children. How utterly important to be on the same sexual wavelength before one walks down the aisle.
> 
> ...




:iagree:

:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:

Madame SimplyAmorous, if you ever wrote a book about Sexology of Married Couple, I will be the first to line up to buy several copies, to be distributed to universities and I will order a special hardcover edition to be thrown to the faces of those who disagrees with anything you wrote above! 

:smthumbup::smthumbup:

I must thank you for coming here, read each and every post, and give EXCELLENT advice and input for this thread!!

Not only the advice are great, but they are so nicely written and spiced with lovely icons! Very user-friendly too, I hope LD-HD couples who frequented TAM could benefit from what you wrote here!

I will write more after I am done digesting everything you write above.

Once again, MANY MANY THANKS! *10 standing bows*


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Thankyou SA. This thread needed your input.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

I am from the school of thought which emphasizes "TEAMWORK".. in a marriage, most important is: Mutual Respect - Mutual Love - Mutual Attraction. This must be present from the beginning. Then to maintain those mutual feelings will require TEAMWORK, both spouses must work equally hard to maintain their marriage.

That is why, as long as there are still Mutual Respect-Love-Attraction, I will generally advise the spouses to find solutions to their problems.

But if there are no TEAMWORK, which means, only one side wishing to maintain the marriage (and usually taking lots of abuse in the process.. yea, I consider chronic withholding of sex a s a form of abuse too!!!) then I will usually advise divorce. I will not tolerated abusive relationships.

Therefore, I could totally relate to what Mrs. Simply Amorous are telling us. She said:



> There is so many Incompatibilities but THIS ONE seems to get a very harsh judgement from outsiders, saying how Shallow someone is to leave over (sex) , especially children will not understand.... *I think this is just as vital for happiness as any other issue that gives grounds for Divorce*.


And yes, I do believe sexual incompatibility are grounds for divorce.

In my country I am against the mainstream, because here tradition are still very strong, too strong sometimes, leaving due to sexual problems/incompatibilities are still seen as unfavorable. 

But I do not wish to sacrifice a person's happiness for the sake of tradition!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

flipflops said:


> What does HD and LD stand for?


*HD* = High Drive person / Lover, desires sex on a regular happening basis -this fulfills them emotionally & physically....(Could be at least once a day or a good 3-4 times a week at the very least)....

*LD* = Low Drive person / Lover...generally not on the radar... Sexual play is as exciting as taking out the garbage for some, they feel pressured married to a HD person, they may only entertain sexual thoughts once a week, or care to "get it on" twice a month or so.. It's a step up from "NO drive" or Asexual. 

A Marriage considered "SexLess" is less than 10 times a year, according to Sex Therapists.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> The way you describe your feelings is something I am familiar with , I KNOW my husband is LIKE YOU... he is so very sensitive to MY DESIRE / MY PLEASURE, it appears paramount to his happiness even... I do feel some of this is from his inborn temperament (he is an ISFJ...they are born GIVERS)... Though this is not a problem for us ...as I orgasm easy ... but I've seen him tear up once - with the near thought I was loosing my drive, or couldn't orgasm .. it kinda blew my mind, but in it's own way... I LOVE him being this way... cause I want my orgasm....I'd even demand it ... so in this WE are compatible... if he didn't care....a "wham bam thank you Maam" type - I'd want to slug him!!
> 
> I do feel since this is something she can not achieve though... and if you are causing her pressure, which will only cause her to feel worse...it's a bad merry go round you are both on.....
> * the only answer to this is to "grieve" this desire/ hope *... .acknowledge it ...it's loss, it's expectation.. .because this is causing you great hurt ~ and her .....and deal with what you have before you..concentrate on the GOOD.... I know this sounds so final... but really... if it is holding you back, causing you such hurt... you love this woman... she loves you... it needs to be put on a lower rung of importance...


Thanks for the advice but consider the meaning of your advice in your own words. 

Your husband is like me in this regard. If his desire to please and give is in your words paramount to his happiness and comes from his inborn temperament then your advice to give up/grieve this desire and still find happiness is nothing short of changing who I am. You're asking the impossible I feel.

It would be a different story if my wife doesn't want them for some reason. She just gave up on them and never really tried. That I feel makes us incompatible.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

TheStranger said:


> Thanks for the advice but consider the meaning of your advice in your own words.
> 
> Your husband is like me in this regard. If his desire to please and give is in your words paramount to his happiness and comes from his inborn temperament then your advice to give up/grieve this desire and still find happiness is nothing short of changing who I am. You're asking the impossible I feel.
> 
> It would be a different story if my wife doesn't want them for some reason. She just gave up on them and never really tried. That I feel makes us incompatible.


Ok...so without knowing your "story"... your wife just "gave up" then... she didn't take the time to try all avenues, you feel uncharted ground has not been covered in this, you feel left out in the cold, she does NOT Grasp how important this IS to you. 

Honestly, I do feel BAD for your situation...I really DO... because I KNOW it would also KILL my husband inside... I feel strongly if a man is geared LIKE YOU.....that for this to be overcome....she needs to seek/ be open WITH YOU....this is a part of her loving...to go that extra mile in not leaving any stone un-turned, seeking all avenues of pleasure... this gives you some hope. 

If the journey ends and she still can not... still a great bonding & other pleasures could have been found along the way... 

Why did she quit... does she feel pressured, your needing this makes HER feel worse? Just trying to understand HER side...what would she say? 

Each partner should find *empathy* for the others side in these things... 

I worry some when I hit menopause that my orgasms will be harder to achieve ...(this will likely damper my experience some)...But as a wife who KNOWS the type of man I am married to..... I know I will have to go above & beyond to reassure him I LOVE being there with him, giving him His pleasure (IS MY PLEASURE)...even on some days I may skip mine... I want to be there.. Would that help you ?? Would it be enough - I ask...if you had THAT ?? 

Or you just have it cemented in your head... I have to be able to "give her this"... or I will never achieve happiness with this woman?

Ya know, ONLY you can decide what you can LIVE with... what you genuinely NEED from your relationship. It would seem very unfair though, if she was a GIVER to you in what she could....and this was still a deal breaker for you. I have not taken the time to read "your story" though...so please forgive me. 

What is the statistic...It says here " Anorgasmia is an inability to reach orgasm and is thought to occur in about 10% of women." Female Orgasms: Myths and Facts 

This site says 30% have trouble... and this is very normal... Female Orgasm Facts 

You've likely read everything under the sun about this already.... 

6 Ways to Help Her Have Orgasms 

Have you ever heard of these books..I would imagine they cover IT ALL in what you can try... if , again, she is willing...

*1*. She Comes First: The Thinking Man's Guide to Pleasuring a Woman: 

*2*. Slow Sex: The Art and Craft of the Female Orgasm: 

*3*. I Love Female Orgasm: An Extraordinary Orgasm Guide:


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mrs. Simply Amorous, I have a question, I wish to hear your perspective. Knowing that female orgasm is not easily achievable, 30% could achieve only with great difficulties and 10% could not get it at all, so:

First question: If a husband has tried everything logically possible (various positions, lubrications, medications, instrumentations/toys, being attentive, being caring, loving etc),

and yet, the wife still cannot physically orgasm,

Could it be a sign of latent homosexuality on the wife's part? Maybe she's a closet ****, so no matter what husband does, she simply cannot enjoy?

Second question: if a husband has tried his best and taking cues from all your books, and being the most caring person that he could ever be..

..and yet the wife still cannot orgasm...

..according to you, is this still the husband's fault? and does the wife is correct to demand a divorce because "he cannot sexually satisfy me?" I didn't say "rights" because she certainly has rights to divorce her husband, but I ask, would that be a correct course of action, considering her husband has made sincere efforts?

Thank you for your time, Mrs. S.A


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

john_lord_b3 said:


> First question: If a husband has tried everything logically possible (various positions, lubrications, medications, instrumentations/toys, being attentive, being caring, loving etc),
> 
> and yet, the wife still cannot physically orgasm,
> 
> Could it be a sign of latent *homosexuality* on the wife's part? Maybe she's a closet ****, so no matter what husband does, she simply cannot enjoy?


 You mean being a Lesbian (the female term for desiring your own sex)....Really you're guess is as good as mine... I mean...putting myself in such shoes.... if I was in bed with a woman ....I wouldn't like it so I doubt her using a "strap on" with me would bring me there... it'd be a total MIND Blocker/ TURN OFF for sure.

Some form of attraction needs to be there unless one is a Pro at fantasizing your way through - a little detachment. I found this question -but the Girl was not even married yet >> 

Is it possible for me to orgasm during straight sex if I'm gay?



> Second question: if a husband has tried his best and taking cues from all your books, and being the most caring person that he could ever be..
> 
> ..and yet the wife still cannot orgasm...
> 
> ..according to you,* is this still the husband's fault?* and does the wife is correct to demand a divorce because "he cannot sexually satisfy me?" I didn't say "rights" because she certainly has rights to divorce her husband, but I ask, would that be a correct course of action, considering her husband has made sincere efforts?


Well NEAR everything you read on this subject claims women are responsible for their own orgasms/ exploring & understanding her own body....and with a partner....doing all she can to help herself get there....if she just lays there, doesn't offer any ideas/ guidance of his hands, where she loves being touched.. "use him" to what feels good >> grab his butt, rock herself around a little if it brings more pleasure...if she has never masterbated....

She is not into "learning" how to get herself off... so when she is with a man...she will know her body enough to know what she wants from him....

If I just laid there with my husband expecting his every thrust to do it... I wouldn't be orgasming half of the time... I change positions, I take control sometimes, I just have to be careful he doesn't blow. 

And a man SHOULD want and desire to do ALL within his sensual power to please his wife...holding out for her, offering as much foreplay as she needs... what woman wouldn't want that ??

But in all GOOD & wonderful things, we can take it too far, as to Obsess over it -when it elude us.....and cause grief for our spouse. So there is the fine line...to not start blaming & feeling the other is defective, or not doing enough. Communication in this is so vital. 

If she is demanding a Divorce feeling it is ALL on him... when she didn't go the extra mile to help herself... chances are the next Stud won't get her there either. 

And of course it could be nobody's fault, even Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp & James Bond might not be able to take her to the Moon... that 10% it speaks of... is nobody's fault.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> You mean being a Lesbian (the female term for desiring your own sex)....Really you're guess is as good as mine... I mean...putting myself in such shoes.... if I was in bed with a woman ....I wouldn't like it so I doubt her using a "strap on" with me would bring me there... it'd be a total MIND Blocker/ TURN OFF for sure.


thank you Mrs. SA, your analogy does fits!



> Well NEAR everything you read on this subject claims women are responsible for their own orgasms/ exploring & understanding her own body....and with a partner....doing all she can to help herself get there....if she just lays there, doesn't offer any ideas/ guidance of his hands, where she loves being touched.. "use him" to what feels good >> grab his butt, rock herself around a little if it brings more pleasure...if she has never masterbated....
> 
> She is not into "learning" how to get herself off... so when she is with a man...she will know her body enough to know what she wants from him....
> 
> ...


Mrs. SA, I admire your eloquence, you're able to put into words, many things which are already in my head, but I just couldn't arrange the proper sentences to express them!

Your posts never fails to educate me, I must say!

So, if you allow me to conclude, women's orgasm is Teamwork, we cannot expect the husband to do all the work without the wife giving hints, is this true?

But, if the wife is so very inexperienced, never even masturbated, and thrust into young marriage (like many times happening in 3rd world countries, where teenagers are thrust into arranged marriages), I suppose she cannot even give directions, right?

I hope Mr. Stranger would take notes, because these answers would surely be informative to him as well!


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Why did she quit... does she feel pressured, your needing this makes HER feel worse? Just trying to understand HER side...what would she say?


She quit before we even met one another I believe. She says that they are not important to her.



> I know I will have to go above & beyond to reassure him I LOVE being there with him, giving him His pleasure (IS MY PLEASURE)...even on some days I may skip mine... I want to be there.. Would that help you ?? Would it be enough - I ask...if you had THAT ??
> 
> Or you just have it cemented in your head... I have to be able to "give her this"... or I will never achieve happiness with this woman?


I'm not sure. The thing evolved into a massive insecurity on my side. This is my fault. I avoided talking about it for several years fearing that I would pressure her, hoping we would get there and blamed myself for not getting her there. I presumed she wanted them but all that time she wasn't even trying it seems.

Can I be happy if I have never saw a female orgasm, my greatest sexual desire? I'm just not sure. 



> It would seem very unfair though, if she was a GIVER to you in what she could....and this was still a deal breaker for you.


I agree. I would try to 'grieve' desire if I knew she went above and beyond to try and give that to me. 


She is orgasmic if I remove myself from the equation. I'm in the way. This thought is highly destructive.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

john_lord_b3 said:


> So, if you allow me to conclude, women's orgasm is Teamwork, we cannot expect the husband to do all the work without the wife giving hints, is this true?


 Yes, Teamwork, everything about a couple -if it is to survive and THRIVE = a communicative Teamwork approach, hand in hand,







to







[/URL]... Without this going forth, little things will be missed and they will grow into bigger things...



> But, if the wife is so very inexperienced, never even masturbated, and thrust into young marriage (like many times happening in 3rd world countries, where teenagers are thrust into arranged marriages), I suppose she cannot even give directions, right?


 I know so very little about 3rd world countries ~ You know far more than I... my guess is the sexual education is severely lacking - talking of Pleasure may even be a SIN ? Plus their being so young... it seems then she is at the mercy of how THE MAN (the dominant Leader force in these marriages) will Treat her.. and his communication/ how she responds to his care, his touch, if he knows anything about Foreplay , a woman's sexuality! 

Do parents even prepare them, talk about Sex to their young children before they marry ?

I think its way different here in the United States, we are bombarded with







and more







... every magazine you pass in the supermarket has an Article on how to "Tickle his Pickle", or what women Really want in the Bedroom, lists of Sexual turn on's. It's plastered everywhere.



> *The Stranger said*: She quit before we even met one another I believe. She says that they are not important to her.


  This is not fair to you / her new husband.. and she realizes *NOW*...after all the years you let it slide , not wanting to pressure her....that it has become a focus point, something you crave more than anything else in life.



> I'm not sure. The thing evolved into a massive insecurity on my side. This is my fault. I avoided talking about it for several years fearing that I would pressure her, hoping we would get there and blamed myself for not getting her there. I presumed she wanted them but all that time she wasn't even trying it seems.
> 
> Can I be happy if I have never saw a female orgasm, my greatest sexual desire? I'm just not sure.


 It's not your fault, you have to lay this part to rest.

When one has a wife unwilling to put in the effort, uncaring... and now telling you she doesn't want them... she has tied your hands behind your back..... 

IF you was not "the giving type"..and she was left feeling you wasn't doing all YOU could to get her there..leaving her hanging... then I would say you could take some guilt... but NOT in this... not from what you describe here. You have a woman who simply defends her NON-desire & has grown cold to the issue....and this makes you feel "cheated"... I can see that ...I'd feel the same !



> I agree. I would try to 'grieve' desire if I knew she went above and beyond to try and give that to me.


 Yes, this is where I was coming from originally -with my comment, assuming she has given her ALL - "in *Teamwork*" (as john_lord_b3 has mentioned)...at least attempting to "work with you" -because this is so important *to you*. ... I do believe it would be easier to "lay down" such desires... without resentment knowing our spouses did ALL THEY COULD DO...to fulfill us... 

Then we need to be Careful on our ends to know if/when we are expecting TOO much from them... or pushing them. It's all such a balancing act -with *personal boundaries* on the one hand... what some of us may feel as personal "*deal breakers*" on the other. 



> She is orgasmic if I remove myself from the equation. I'm in the way. This thought is highly destructive


 HOW does she achieve this? Does she allow you to participate in that, wanting you there with her ....because this is "Intimacy" too ... Sex Therapists have written books to help people stay emotionally connected / enjoying sex without intercourse even... this is one of them ...








 Let Me Count the Ways: Discovering Great Sex Without Intercourse Books


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I know so very little about 3rd world countries ~ You know far more than I... my guess is the sexual education is severely lacking - talking of Pleasure may even be a SIN ? Plus their being so young... it seems then she is at the mercy of how THE MAN (the dominant Leader force in these marriages) will Treat her.. and his communication/ how she responds to his care, his touch, if he knows anything about Foreplay , a woman's sexuality!
> 
> Do parents even prepare them, talk about Sex to their young children before they marry ?


Yes, indeed sexual education were severely lacking back then! We were taught that sex is only for procreation! We didn't know what orgasm was, what clitoris was, what prostate gland was...Most parents were uncomfortable talking about this, they were only able to say the DONT's but cannot say the DO's!

Thanks God, starting in the 1970s some good books about sexuality in general started to be published in major bookstores. Prominent psychologists such as Prof. Sarlito, Dr. Boyke and Dr. Naek LeTobing began to educate our people about the role of sex in strengthening the bond of marriage. So, there have been some good progresses!


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> ..sensual power to please his wife...holding out for her, offering as much foreplay as she needs... what woman wouldn't want that ??


Mrs. SimplyAmorous, I have another question.

I want to bring back the topic to LD and HD marriage (not that off-topicking to orgasm wasn't fun though  )

I asked a question in another thread, "what is wrong with a man wanting her wife to want to have sex with him?" I clarify my position by saying that, in a marriage, I believe both husband and wife must start with honesty (intention): "I want to please my wife/husband including her/his sexual needs". Not "I will please my husband/wife only if he/she is able to make me want to have sex with him/her".

I believe _this_ is the fundamental question of LD vs HD. I think, I seriously think, *it is _wrong_ and _unfair_ and even _dishonest_ if an LD going into marriage, knowingly with an HD or an ND, with the intention of: "I will please my husband/wife only if he/she is able to make me want to have sex with him/her".*

I know relationships has its ups and downs, and that its ups and downs has effects to sex. But seriously, isn't the initial intention must be: to be the best husband/wife one can be? 

I believe, if giving sex to spouse are given conditions like "I will please my husband/wife only if he/she is able to make me want to have sex with him/her", then it is too much favoring the LD side, and I think it's unfair, and I am an LD myself!

What are your thoughts about that, Mrs. S.A?

BTW, let me also clarify,

I think it's nothing wrong with being LD, I believe I am LD too, monthly sex is enough for me..but I didn't get married with the intention to give my wife sex only when I am in the mood or only when she could make me want sex. I don't want to be selfish like that.

Years ago I made the mistake of assuming my wife didn't want sex as much after giving birth to my son, so a year passed with no sex at all, and she finally had enough and yelled at me. That brought me back to land of reality, compromises and negotiations. That reminded me that she has needs too. I am still apologizing to her for being such an absent-minded fool.

There are times when I am not in the mood and my wife asked for sex. Therefore, even though initially I wasn't in the mood, but I made sure I gave serious efforts to please my wife with enthusiasm, because I want to please her, she is my wife, I love her. Usually I started the foreplay (she asked, I served) without getting an erection (erection are not instant when we're no longer young and not in the mood), but as I see her enjoying it, I feel happy, so little by little erection is slowly happening, and then afterwards, normal sex is possible.

Some of you will say it's "duty sex". Maybe it is, but duty sex does not have to be unenjoyable, if there are real (1) mutual respect (2) mutual love (3) mutual physical attraction between the spouses.

I think duty sex will not cause resentments if all 3 aspects above are present in marriage.

Thoughts? Comments?


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> HOW does she achieve this? Does she allow you to participate in that, wanting you there with her ....because this is "Intimacy" too ... Sex Therapists have written books to help people stay emotionally connected / enjoying sex without intercourse even... this is one of them ...


She does it with her fingers rubbing her clitoris with the legs clenched together. I was given a preview when I asked few times but lasted only a minute or two.

She didn't masturbate for the last three years so I don't have the opportunity to participate and I've already expressed my desire to watch her. She is uncomfortable with the idea of being watched even by me. She would rather spend that time having sex.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Stranger,

Ah yes. This is a genetic variation. She actually may be able to reach the rapture just from squeezing her legs together. In fact the girl I dated who had this variation only had to squeeze her legs together to have an O. All the other arousal stuff worked the same, kissing, breasts, inner thy, ass, clit were all turn ons. But to O, she needed to squeeze her legs hard for about a minute. 





QUOTE=TheStranger;1446697]She does it with her fingers rubbing her clitoris with the legs clenched together. I was given a preview when I asked few times but lasted only a minute or two.

She didn't masturbate for the last three years so I don't have the opportunity to participate and I've already expressed my desire to watch her. She is uncomfortable with the idea of being watched even by me. She would rather spend that time having sex.[/QUOTE]


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

I found these great quotes in another thread!

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/67022-ld-wife-has-turned-me-off-2.html#post1452773



> *Originally Posted by Anon Pink *
> I've read this thread and wonder if depression is the correct diagnosis for your W's behavior. The way you describe her sounds like she has borderline personality disorder. You have described 1,2,5 and 8; and you stated your wife's mother had a mental illness back in the BAD old days of electro shock therapy.
> 
> 
> ...





> *Originally Posted by Uptown*
> Indy, if BPD is involved, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional evaluation is to see your own psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself. Meanwhile, while you're waiting for an appointment, you may want to read more about the traits so you can spot the red flags for both of those disorders.
> 
> I am not a psychologist but I did live with a BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a bipolar foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found twelve clear differences between the two disorders.
> ...


*
You don't want to get beaten up? DO NOT marry a physically abusive partner
You don't like alcohols? DO NOT marry a person who likes booze
You don't like sex? DO NOT marry a normal person who wants sex
You don't like heterosexual sex? DO NOT marry a heterosexual person
You want to live in luxury? DO NOT marry a poor man
You want to be happy? DO NOT marry a BPD and Bipolar sufferer*

But being married to an LD does not means you _will_ suffer, if the LD cares about your needs!

Comments?


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