# 14 years of marriage and wifes 1st affair



## ConstantDisbelief

Used to read the forums a lot, but not for a while since my wife and my relationship has been improving and really good the last year until early this week. I plan on reading the forums again, but so lost and hurt at this point I can't think straight. Will try to keep it short.

Married 14 years ago, and until 6 years ago both grew up in mormon households (which perverts so many things, including sex). 3 great elementary aged kids. I work full-time and she has been a stay-at-home mom home schooling the kids until last 9 months ago when the kids started public school.

I struggle with identifying and expressing emotions, often falling back to logic and external actions to show my love and getting caving within myself when emotionally distressed. Wife was sexually assaulted as a teenager and pushed into placing a baby up for adoption through church services which has been an understandably major emotional nightmare in her life. Although we have a passionate, good marriage, for years I was not fun, not emotionally available which caused great loneliness in my wife which I regret. I realized today that I've leaned on her to be my emotional voice this entire time and not creating my own.

Over the last few years I've been trying much harder to understand and make changes and we had been going out and enjoying being together so much. She is very open and direct. I do most of the laundry, get kids off to school, dinners, dishes, definitely not lack of household work. 

She works out for 2-3 hours at the gym multiple times per week, has a lot of freedom since kids in school, lots of social events. A couple years ago she decided she wanted to try having an open marriage, but I wasn't comfortable with it and said I'd think about it (I never took it upon myself to fix my emotional issue so I could give a definitive answer). She developed a crush on a trainer at the gym and asked about it again, but my feelings hadn't changed. I was willing to keep it a fantasy and role played the part of the trainer for her. The crush ended, but 3 weeks ago a new one started. She asked how I'd feel if she kissed him, but my feelings hadn't changed.

On Monday she texted that she and the crush were going to lunch, but it was platonic. After lunch they exchanged numbers and texted non-stop for the next 12 hours with tons of sexual banter. I couldn't even talk to my wife when she came home because she was so caught up in it. At 8pm while we were home together she was telling me a few things about what they were saying and she asked how I'd feel about her having phone sex with him. My stomach sank as it always did, but we discussed parameters, that it stopped at a one-time thing and ultimately I agreed if I was in the room with her (ended up being the surrogate). I agreed because it would be temporary, not actually with another person, and being able to meet her wishes.

On Tuesday they started sexting all day and things escalated to her telling him multiple times about really wanting to **** him. She knew at this point I was no OK with the sexting and where it was going and I had to leave the house. She texted me concerned and we went back and forth, all the while she was obsessively texting the crush. I told her I wasn't going to have a conversation with her while she did that, she said she stopped, but then said she started texting him again.

I came home and she there was a major breakdown due to her son she placed for adoption. We talked until 3am about the crush and she was scared she was losing control and wasn't sure if she'd be able to stop herself from having sex with him. 

On Wednesday she was on a school trip with our kids and I setup a marriage counseling appointment for 4pm and I asked if she would ask a friend to babysit while we went. She said she'd check and why don't I go if we couldn't get a sitter. 

Me: I need to know nothing is going to happen before I can figure this out. It sounded like that was up in the air (last night)
Her: What's up in the air
Me: If you’ll end up meeting Mark and having sex or whatever
Her: Zero plans on just meeting up for sex. I want to. But I’m not about to mess you up like that.
Me: Can I interpret that to mean that nothing is going to happen even if it’s not planned?
Her: Yes
Her: Field trip done, not wanting to come home
Me: (Gave her a few ideas to do like getting tea, or shopping)
Her: Nice ideas
Then the texts stopped for an hour

She and the crush decided to meet at his house (she says not for sex) where he hugged her, nuzzled her neck, started kissing. She said at first she said she couldn't, but they went to the bedroom and undressed. She says she stopped him from taking off her pants, but she gave him an unprotected blowjob and he came in her mouth, stopped him from having intercourse (due to a concern for my feelings) they showered together, rubbed themselves on each other, he gave her oral sex. Then she came home so we could go to our marriage counseling appointment. 

She spent 20 minutes alone with the counselor first and told her, so when I joined I had no idea. She told me. I was sick, crushed, disbelief, nearly blacked out. 

She's sorry she hurt me, but not sorry for the experience which she says helped her overcome sexual hang-ups. Wants to know why I can't be happy for her. She regrets stopping, wants to see him, wants to have intercourse with him, tired of putting my wants ahead of her own, feels controlled by me that I am not OK with it. Asks, "Why am I not happy for her that she could be comfortable having sex with someone else (a major negative thing she's carried, not being worthy of being wanted)?"

She says she ****ed up, is humiliated, takes responsibility for it, but also turns around and blames me for not meeting her needs which lead up to something like this. She says the crush was more responsive to her than me to questions, advances.

In the middle of the night she had another breakdown and I was comforting her, which she recognized it to be completely messed up.

On Thursday we had another counseling session. It concluded that she didn't want to be controlled, wants to see the crush. In a short one-on-one with the counselor I felt like I needed to accept this reality and let go of wanting it to be different. I finally made it clear on the ride home that I am not interested in open relationships and can't be in our relationship if she's in another. And if that's what she needs we will have to part ways.

To summarize the day, I took the kids out and told her I needed to go on emotional pause with all of this, a break. When I got home, she was talking to a friend about what was happening and I asked her if she was alright. I was still numb, but at least not hurting because I shutdown. She asked me if I had compassion for her (identified tonight that's how she interprets love). Before I was numb I did have compassion, but it was buried under so much pain. I said I am a monogamous relationship person and can't be with her. She can't believe that I won't be there for her, support her in this thing she needs (sex with the crush). I don't recall exactly, but I probably said I do have compassion, but it's buried. She was livid, says I don't have compassion for her, which pushes her to want to meet with the crush. A while later she told me she wants to move out as soon as possible. She isn't willing to wait anymore, not even for marriage counseling (we have a few appts setup).

She can't understand why I won't support her in this and that she would support me if the roles were reversed. As far as I know she probably would. Do we just have too different ideas on sex, intimacy, and what it means in a relationship? 

It ended tonight that we'll co-habitate / separate in the same house while she gets a job, etc.

I don't want this. I don't want any of this. I know the common "that's messed up" response, but the reality isn't clear. Is there any chance I agree to let her explore her sexuality and us thriving? I feel like I'd be crushed.

I'm doing an IC session next week, but it feels like a lifetime a way. 

Thanks for reading and any comments.
ConstantDisbelief


----------



## straightshooter

If you go along with this little game of hers you are going to be in a hell of a lot more disbelief, and you already have made a whole lot of mistakes.

You need to get to an attorney today, and make it clear to her that she chooses crush or you but you have no intention of sharing your wife. If you agree to this, you will be baby sitting eating your heart out a couple of times a week while she primes, puts on her sexiest outfits and goes out to bang her boyfriend. And once that stops there will be more "crushes"

Her asking you to be happy for her indicates she may have been either reading some forums on polyamory or getting advice from a girlfriend because that phrase is right out of the "browbeat" your husband into accepting an open marriage script.

You have one advantage here. You do not have to gather evidence, you do not have to guess what she is doing because she is telling you, and you cannot stop her unless she wants to stop which is not going to happen as long as you play the "pick me" game and give in to whatever she demands.

You have two choices and you do not need much advice
(1) you either get humiliated and emasculated more than you already are
(2) you make it real for her

Right now, she has you wasting your time going to a therapist to negotiate and convince you to put up with this. The therapy needs to stop right now. You are wasting your money.

If you do not take a deep breath and stop back pedaling you better get to a doctor and get a hell of a lot of Valium or xanax because you are going to get a **** sandwich daily starting the minute you do not stand your ground.


----------



## arbitrator

*Constant: You've been "trickle-truthed" as I don't think that there's a snowball's chance in hell that she didn't accept the invitation to sleep with him in his house when afforded the invitation and given the fact that she was so adamant about doing it in the first place! The other thing is that this newfounded infidelity will likely never stop on her part!

Your W has more than proven herself to be a deceptive cheater/prevaricator and it is now sadly up to you to do something about it other than to counter-cheat!*


----------



## ConstantDisbelief

Thanks for the reply and yes I'm likely making mistake after mistake. It's surreal that I'm reading it and it applies to me. I'm a very laid back person and have stayed pretty calm through this ordeal. I sent an email making it crystal clear that I am only willing to be in a monogamous relationship with no exceptions and I'm willing to do MC to work through this. But that I'm also under the impression that's not her desire.

I am aware after days of talking that the majority of discussion has been about her and her wishes, issues, etc. with very little that she just had an affair and hurt me. Time to focus on me.

I'll start the process of planning the divorce.


----------



## ConstantDisbelief

arbitrator said:


> *Constant: You've been "trickle-truthed" as I don't think that there's a snowball's chance in hell that she didn't accept the invitation to sleep with him in his house when afforded the invitation and given the fact that she was so adamant about doing it in the first place! The other thing is that this newfounded infidelity will likely never stop on her part!
> 
> Your W has more than proven herself to be a deceptive cheater/prevaricator and it is now sadly up to you to do something about it other than to counter-cheat!*


I see what you're saying, but not sure that's true. She has always been open and direct and told me everything. This is the only even I know of where she snuck around and she walked me through the events twice in detail, end-to-end.

The thing I'm not buying is that she claims she didn't have any intentions of having sex when she DROVE TO HIS HOUSE. Maybe that's a deep rooted denial, but that's even bogus enough for me.

I think you're right though. There's very little focus on the affair and how it's affected me. Maybe it's the deep mental/emotional issues that triggered this, I don't know. She doesn't want to stop and get additional counseling to see if that's what needs to be worked through, so unfortunately that's my answer.


----------



## aine

ConstantDisbelief said:


> Used to read the forums a lot, but not for a while since my wife and my relationship has been improving and really good the last year until early this week. I plan on reading the forums again, but so lost and hurt at this point I can't think straight. Will try to keep it short.
> 
> Married 14 years ago, and until 6 years ago both grew up in mormon households (which perverts so many things, including sex). 3 great elementary aged kids. I work full-time and she has been a stay-at-home mom home schooling the kids until last 9 months ago when the kids started public school.
> 
> I struggle with identifying and expressing emotions, often falling back to logic and external actions to show my love and getting caving within myself when emotionally distressed. Wife was sexually assaulted as a teenager and pushed into placing a baby up for adoption through church services which has been an understandably major emotional nightmare in her life. Although we have a passionate, good marriage, for years I was not fun, not emotionally available which caused great loneliness in my wife which I regret. I realized today that I've leaned on her to be my emotional voice this entire time and not creating my own.
> 
> Over the last few years I've been trying much harder to understand and make changes and we had been going out and enjoying being together so much. She is very open and direct. I do most of the laundry, get kids off to school, dinners, dishes, definitely not lack of household work.
> 
> She works out for 2-3 hours at the gym multiple times per week, has a lot of freedom since kids in school, lots of social events. A couple years ago she decided she wanted to try having an open marriage, but I wasn't comfortable with it and said I'd think about it (I never took it upon myself to fix my emotional issue so I could give a definitive answer). She developed a crush on a trainer at the gym and asked about it again, but my feelings hadn't changed. I was willing to keep it a fantasy and role played the part of the trainer for her. The crush ended, but 3 weeks ago a new one started. She asked how I'd feel if she kissed him, but my feelings hadn't changed.
> 
> On Monday she texted that she and the crush were going to lunch, but it was platonic. After lunch they exchanged numbers and texted non-stop for the next 12 hours with tons of sexual banter. I couldn't even talk to my wife when she came home because she was so caught up in it. At 8pm while we were home together she was telling me a few things about what they were saying and she asked how I'd feel about her having phone sex with him. My stomach sank as it always did, but we discussed parameters, that it stopped at a one-time thing and ultimately I agreed if I was in the room with her (ended up being the surrogate). I agreed because it would be temporary, not actually with another person, and being able to meet her wishes.
> 
> On Tuesday they started sexting all day and things escalated to her telling him multiple times about really wanting to **** him. She knew at this point I was no OK with the sexting and where it was going and I had to leave the house. She texted me concerned and we went back and forth, all the while she was obsessively texting the crush. I told her I wasn't going to have a conversation with her while she did that, she said she stopped, but then said she started texting him again.
> 
> I came home and she there was a major breakdown due to her son she placed for adoption. We talked until 3am about the crush and she was scared she was losing control and wasn't sure if she'd be able to stop herself from having sex with him.
> 
> On Wednesday she was on a school trip with our kids and I setup a marriage counseling appointment for 4pm and I asked if she would ask a friend to babysit while we went. She said she'd check and why don't I go if we couldn't get a sitter.
> 
> Me: I need to know nothing is going to happen before I can figure this out. It sounded like that was up in the air (last night)
> Her: What's up in the air
> Me: If you’ll end up meeting Mark and having sex or whatever
> Her: Zero plans on just meeting up for sex. I want to. But I’m not about to mess you up like that.
> Me: Can I interpret that to mean that nothing is going to happen even if it’s not planned?
> Her: Yes
> Her: Field trip done, not wanting to come home
> Me: (Gave her a few ideas to do like getting tea, or shopping)
> Her: Nice ideas
> Then the texts stopped for an hour
> 
> She and the crush decided to meet at his house (she says not for sex) where he hugged her, nuzzled her neck, started kissing. She said at first she said she couldn't, but they went to the bedroom and undressed. She says she stopped him from taking off her pants, but she gave him an unprotected blowjob and he came in her mouth, stopped him from having intercourse (due to a concern for my feelings) they showered together, rubbed themselves on each other, he gave her oral sex. Then she came home so we could go to our marriage counseling appointment.
> 
> She spent 20 minutes alone with the counselor first and told her, so when I joined I had no idea. She told me. I was sick, crushed, disbelief, nearly blacked out.
> 
> She's sorry she hurt me, but not sorry for the experience which she says helped her overcome sexual hang-ups. Wants to know why I can't be happy for her. She regrets stopping, wants to see him, wants to have intercourse with him, tired of putting my wants ahead of her own, feels controlled by me that I am not OK with it. Asks, "Why am I not happy for her that she could be comfortable having sex with someone else (a major negative thing she's carried, not being worthy of being wanted)?"
> 
> She says she ****ed up, is humiliated, takes responsibility for it, but also turns around and blames me for not meeting her needs which lead up to something like this. She says the crush was more responsive to her than me to questions, advances.
> 
> In the middle of the night she had another breakdown and I was comforting her, which she recognized it to be completely messed up.
> 
> On Thursday we had another counseling session. It concluded that she didn't want to be controlled, wants to see the crush. In a short one-on-one with the counselor I felt like I needed to accept this reality and let go of wanting it to be different. I finally made it clear on the ride home that I am not interested in open relationships and can't be in our relationship if she's in another. And if that's what she needs we will have to part ways.
> 
> To summarize the day, I took the kids out and told her I needed to go on emotional pause with all of this, a break. When I got home, she was talking to a friend about what was happening and I asked her if she was alright. I was still numb, but at least not hurting because I shutdown. She asked me if I had compassion for her (identified tonight that's how she interprets love). Before I was numb I did have compassion, but it was buried under so much pain. I said I am a monogamous relationship person and can't be with her. She can't believe that I won't be there for her, support her in this thing she needs (sex with the crush). I don't recall exactly, but I probably said I do have compassion, but it's buried. She was livid, says I don't have compassion for her, which pushes her to want to meet with the crush. A while later she told me she wants to move out as soon as possible. She isn't willing to wait anymore, not even for marriage counseling (we have a few appts setup).
> 
> She can't understand why I won't support her in this and that she would support me if the roles were reversed. As far as I know she probably would. Do we just have too different ideas on sex, intimacy, and what it means in a relationship?
> 
> It ended tonight that we'll co-habitate / separate in the same house while she gets a job, etc.
> 
> I don't want this. I don't want any of this. I know the common "that's messed up" response, but the reality isn't clear. Is there any chance I agree to let her explore her sexuality and us thriving? I feel like I'd be crushed.
> 
> I'm doing an IC session next week, but it feels like a lifetime a way.
> 
> Thanks for reading and any comments.
> ConstantDisbelief




I gave up reading half way through. Why are you being a doormat while you stand by and basically let the train crash happen. Be a bloody man and lead your family, firstly by kicking her out. Why are you taking all the blame for her desire to **** someone else. If there is a problem in your marriage go get therapy. Geez!


----------



## ConstantDisbelief

aine said:


> I gave up reading half way through. Why are you being a doormat while you stand by and basically let the train crash happen. Be a bloody man and lead your family, firstly by kicking her out. Why are you taking all the blame for her desire to **** someone else. If there is a problem in your marriage go get therapy. Geez!


True. Plan is she'll move out ASAP.


----------



## notmyrealname4

.


----------



## MJJEAN

It's not controlling to expect the person who vowed lifelong monogamy keep their word.

All actions have consequences. It's not lack if compassion to allow someone to feel the natural consequence of their actions.

She's using her past as an excuse to do what she wants to do, which is cheat.

You've been far too passive and submissive. She lacks respect for you.

If you stay you will never be able to trust her. Next time she has a crush, she'll just keep it to herself and screw him behind your back. Your choices are to divorce, turn a blind eye, or have an open marriage.


----------



## Sparta

First off OP she doesn't respect you because you're not a man... that's why she seeks a man openly in front of you she knows you're not one you're not a leader... The only thing you can do right now is file divorce right now.!!! not plan for one but to actually Carry it out. Anything other then filing for divorce is a complete waste of time.!


----------



## straightshooter

ConstantDisbelief said:


> I see what you're saying, but not sure that's true. She has always been open and direct and told me everything. This is the only even I know of where she snuck around and she walked me through the events twice in detail, end-to-end.
> 
> The thing I'm not buying is that she claims she didn't have any intentions of having sex when she DROVE TO HIS HOUSE. Maybe that's a deep rooted denial, but that's even bogus enough for me.
> 
> I think you're right though. There's very little focus on the affair and how it's affected me. Maybe it's the deep mental/emotional issues that triggered this, I don't know. She doesn't want to stop and get additional counseling to see if that's what needs to be worked through, so unfortunately that's my answer.


Does it really matter about what she was thinking when she went to his house?? She has told you she intends on having sex with him and that you need to just accept it.

You need an attorney today so stop trying to figure it out. There's time for that once you start the consequences for her moving.

Stay away from MC right now. If she goes she's stalling and will be banging him if she has not already. And what you do not need us some therapist telling you not to make any decisions and to let it go on and talk about marriage issues.


----------



## ConstantDisbelief

notmyrealname4 said:


> Does she have any compassion for you?
> 
> 
> Why would you even remotely entertain the idea of her having sex with anyone else? No way. That's not marriage. You're not into the open marriage set-up; so this isn't going to work.
> 
> I'm more interested in you and why you value yourself so little that you went along with this for so long?


Good question and probably accurate. Low self-esteem because my mother didn't hold me right or something. I cancelled the MC sessions and will just use them for me. Something useful might come of it.


----------



## ConstantDisbelief

straightshooter said:


> Does it really matter about what she was thinking when she went to his house?? She has told you she intends on having sex with him and that you need to just accept it.
> 
> You need an attorney today so stop trying to figure it out. There's time for that once you start the consequences for her moving.
> 
> Stay away from MC right now. If she goes she's stalling and will be banging him if she has not already. And what you do not need us some therapist telling you not to make any decisions and to let it go on and talk about marriage issues.


I'll have to look this up, but is an attorney completely necessary in a no-fault state? I'm going to create the proposal for child custody, division or property, etc. We'll probably be able to do it amicably and I don't want an attorney to suck up money unnecessarily, but I'm done being walked on.


----------



## Herschel

Holy **** man! Her moving out is good. Don't do anything you don't HAVE to do for her. She needs to suck off another dude? GTFO!


----------



## notmyrealname4

/


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

ConstantDisbelief said:


> *but she gave him an unprotected blowjob and he came in her mouth, *stopped him from having intercourse (due to a concern for my feelings) they showered together, rubbed themselves on each other,* he gave her oral sex. Then she came home so we could go to our marriage counseling appointment.*


That is as about a twisted sequence as any of us are likely to encounter. 

If you are not yet convinced that this needs to end and you personally need to take decisive and immediate action to make it so, re read that a couple times. 

Her going to counseling is sham. Your marriage is a sham. Sad but true. Lawyer. Now.


----------



## ConstantDisbelief

notmyrealname4 said:


> I'm guessing you're making a joke there; that's okay.
> 
> 
> But I hope you take the idea seriously.
> 
> Some personality types are much more prone to accepting emotional abuse. It can be hard to see this trait in yourself.
> 
> I think you can do a lot of work of yourself, without a therapist. But I think counseling is a good idea if you have no idea why you sorta allowed this behavior to continue with your wife.
> 
> You should have a wife who only wants you. Everyone feels attracted to others somewhat after they get married. That's hormones.
> 
> But love stops us from acting on those impulses. Don't you want someone who loves you?


Yes it was a joke. I don't know the origin -- I moved around constantly growing up and being introverted closed myself off as a coping mechanism. That's my best guess, but I think a counselor will help to at least get started. 

I've agreed that the fantasy of other people is great, but the reality is devastation (unless you're the type that can do an open relationship). 

I really appreciate everyone's comments during this time.


----------



## sokillme

You are clearly in an abusive marriage. No person or love is worth allowing yourself or your children to be abused. That is really all there is to say about this. Get some help to figure out why you are allowing yourself and your family to be abused without standing up. It's time you started being a father and a man and protect the life and dignity that God gave you.

One more thing, I know you love her but if that love is hurting you then it isn't a good thing. Loving someone like her is not healthy. She is toxic. You can co-parent brilliant still and you can move on to a more healthy individual so you can have a healthy marriage. That will not happen with this women. She is very broken and isn't even remorseful. At least one of you can have a successful relationship to model for your children. 

Some people should not be married.


----------



## straightshooter

ConstantDisbelief said:


> I'll have to look this up, but is an attorney completely necessary in a no-fault state? I'm going to create the proposal for child custody, division or property, etc. We'll probably be able to do it amicably and I don't want an attorney to suck up money unnecessarily, but I'm done being walked on.


Constant,

OK, you are starting to move forward.
(1) you may not need an attorney but no one posting here knows exactly what the laws are where you are and whether you use an attorney or not you need some PROFESSIONAL advice. You can then make your women judgement based of facts, not speculation.
(2) Child Sex Abuse she has. Well my friend, if you research that you will find it is almost impossible to cure and on top of that one of the way female CSA survivors cope is to control men sexually because it gives them the power that was taken away from them when they were molested. But the point is unless you are willing to let her go have sex with other men there are no options.
You've left her have phone sex with him, go give him BJ, and now you are just one big ass hole for not being joyous that she wants to have intercourse. If anyone you cared about told you this what would you tell them to do???
(3) Understand this about MC or IC or whatever you want to call it. Right now, from what you have described, if this therapist tells you to take your time and let this play out you need to throw them out the window of the office. You need advice on how to extricate yourself from this abuse, not advice on how to put up with it.
(4) And lastly do n to leave your home without professional legal advice and you need to file immediately before she runs up debt. In most states, once you file you are not responsible for her debt incurred after the filing date.

If you put up with this, there will certainly be more "trainers" in your future. I am telling you this as someone whose delusional WW was convinced an open marriage was great for us. I cured her of that very quickly but I do not think that will work on your wife because she refuses to stop even after you have stated what you intend to do.

You have drawn a red line in the sand. If you do not back that up with action you will lose any power you have from here on out.


----------



## Thor

ConstantDisbelief said:


> I'll have to look this up, but is an attorney completely necessary in a no-fault state? I'm going to create the proposal for child custody, division or property, etc. We'll probably be able to do it amicably and I don't want an attorney to suck up money unnecessarily, but I'm done being walked on.


You still need to talk to an atty to get good advice.

I consulted with an atty to get basic advice and information. Then we went to mediation where we hammered out the details. My ex-W did not talk to an atty, and as a result I got a good deal. Had she pressed for everything the law allows, I could have been destroyed. The deal was fair to both of us, and she's still much better off financially for the rest of her life (inheritance) than I will be.

Fair is the goal in your divorce.

I also used an atty to do the paperwork for signing over the house to the ex-W. Some paperwork needs to be done exactly correctly, which is super simple for the experienced atty but is complex and baffling to the rest of us.

Also, the state forms online were fine for the basic divorce. Here in UT they do cover all the bases quite well. I suspect most states have good DIY forms on the state website. However, you want to be sure they are filled in correctly and completely. And then, follow up with the clerk. Your case will be assigned to a judge, but the judge probably only ever sees the paperwork once at the time they sign it. If there is something wrong or something missing, the clerk may just put your file off to the side and let it sit. You need to call the clerk several times along the way to be sure they have everything and it is progressing through the system.

Child support will probably be a simple formula per state law. But custody is a bit of a wild card. You need an atty to advise you how things usually work out in your state for fathers in your position. I suggest you try to arrange so the money does not get garnished from your paycheck. If some minion in the state agency screws up, you will be the one who gets hosed. See if you can do a regular electronic transfer to your stbxw. If you both have an account at the same bank, you can set up a regular transfer to her account. You have proof it was paid if there is ever a question. If you change jobs, no problem. And nobody in the middle to screw something up.

You may be in jeopardy of having to pay alimony. In my state it is granted if asked for, but my ex didn't ask for it. If there is the possibility of alimony where you live, I would push for a super fast divorce if she is not asking for it! Also, if she does ask for it, you need an atty to help you craft it so it is limited and non-changeable. That is, she can't come back in 5 years and ask for even more. Also, protect yourself that alimony stops if she is living with any other adults. Limit overnight stays to 1 per month (or something equally restrictive). I know a divorcee who lives with her long term boyfriend but he maintains a very cheap apartment so that she can claim he doesn't live with her in her house. She does this to keep getting lots of alimony which would end if she lives with someone. There is no "overnight stay" clause in her divorce, so her ex-H is stuck paying alimony forever. If alimony is involved, you really need an atty!

Lastly, since she is wanting a divorce, give it to her quickly. It is to your benefit to do so. You can always give her more money later on than is required in your final settlement, but you can never give less! You can always be more generous for the kids later on. And, you can always get back together with her after the divorce if you want to (but I don't think you will want to).


----------



## Hope1964

Holy hell man, she's got you COMPLETELY hoodwinked doesn't she?? She has in all likelihood been screwing around on you since before she proposed an open marriage the first time.

Other than getting a lawyer (YES you need a lawyer!!) you need to see a dr and be STD tested asap. God only knows what she's given you.

I know exactly how hard it is, but you have GOT to disengage from her in every way possible. Do the D, lawyer up, and stop thinking all this crap about how you not being emotionally available had ANYTHING to do with her cheating.


----------



## Thor

As others have said, your wife is deeply broken. Sex abuse or sex assault is a likely cause in her case, but whatever it doesn't matter the cause. She has some serious psychological issues which make her unable to have a monogamous marriage.

Damaged people tend to pair up with other damaged people. You have put up with very unacceptable circumstances for some reason. Most men would have shut down her antics immediately. So, you should seek some counseling to understand yourself better and to learn to establish healthy boundaries for yourself. A good counselor will also be a big help as you go through divorce. Your work probably offers EAP, Employee Assistance Program, which is totally free and completely confidential. Federal law prohibits them from even telling your employer that you have gone to EAP. This is one avenue for you to find counseling.


----------



## Thor

Please do a paternity test on your kids.


----------



## wilson

It sounds like you're going down the right path. Unfortunately, divorce is the best thing for all involved. Don't beat yourself up too much. A strong religious upbringing can cloud your vision towards people who have fallen off the path. You assume everyone has a good heart, so you view other's transgressions through that perspective. 

For those of us on the outside, we can tell she has some major problems to work through. It is highly unlikely that you can be the one to "save" her. She has to walk through a desert of her own making. Who knows what kind of person she will be when she gets to the other side (if she ever does).

Your duty is now to your children. You'll need to be stable as a rock since their mom isn't fit to be a mother. Expect lots of unstable behavior from her over the next few years. You have to be the role model for your kids because she won't be.

Since you have kids, you absolutely should get a lawyer. It may even be a requirement. You need a legally binding agreement for custody, child support, and alimony. If you come up with something on your own, it could have mistakes which could cost you significantly later on. You are going to have to interact with her in a legally binding way until the last child is 18. Definitely get a professional involved.


----------



## Spicy

Rebellion. 

It's amazing how wild some people go when they leave their faith. I'm not a Mormon, never have been and therefore I can't speak for them even remotely. I know nothing of their teachings you referred to in your original post about sex. What I have observed my whole life interacting with members of that faith (first through school, then secular work) has always been quite postive. Hard working, clean, polite, and overall seemingly strong moral codes that they actually try to follow (i.e. No living together and no pemarital sex). I was impressed that they seem to "live it" rather than just teach it and then do whatever they want. I admire all those things very much. 

I imagine with you both being raised in that culture, she may have been your first, and your only. How devastating to have that dirtied by her wanting an open marriage and ultimately cheating on you. So I go back to my opening word. I'm hearing rebellion in her story. It SCREAMS it to me. 

Filing for divorce and putting the 180 into affect immediately may wake her up. Even still, I would be extremely leery about reconciling with her. Her conduct is so very brazen. R is a very personal choice though, and no matter what you decide, we will help you through your journey. I am so truly sorry you are here. Cyberhugs...


----------



## Satya

I'm not sure what to add as everyone else has nailed it in their comments. You are somehow afraid to tell her flat out how unacceptable and disgusting this whole situation is. You're basically being expected to be a cuckold and emotional tampon, and like it. 

Find your self-respect.


----------



## ConstantDisbelief

Spicy said:


> Rebellion.
> 
> It's amazing how wild some people go when they leave their faith. I'm not a Mormon, never have been and therefore I can't speak for them even remotely. I know nothing of their teachings you referred to in your original post about sex. What I have observed my whole life interacting with members of that faith (first through school, then secular work) has always been quite postive. Hard working, clean, polite, and overall seemingly strong moral codes that they actually try to follow (i.e. No living together and no pemarital sex). I was impressed that they seem to "live it" rather than just teach it and then do whatever they want. I admire all those things very much.
> 
> I imagine with you both being raised in that culture, she may have been your first, and your only. How devastating to have that dirtied by her wanting an open marriage and ultimately cheating on you. So I go back to my opening word. I'm hearing rebellion in her story. It SCREAMS it to me.
> 
> Filing for divorce and putting the 180 into affect immediately may wake her up. Even still, I would be extremely leery about reconciling with her. Her conduct is so very brazen. R is a very personal choice though, and no matter what you decide, we will help you through your journey. I am so truly sorry you are here. Cyberhugs...



I'll respond to a few other comments later today, first putting some thoughts together. This post is easier for me comment on having spent over 30 years being active in the church. 

I've heard similar observations from other "NeverMos" (Never Mormons, different than Ex-Mormons). The Mormon church is has a rigid set of teachings for what to think, how to feel, what to do, there is an expectation for everything. When an individual fails to meet any of these doctrinal or cultural expectations, guilt, shame, feeling like something is wrong with yourself, wondering why other members seem to be conforming so much better, etc.

It creates serious mental and emotional damage to the individual. "Wrong" feelings are suppressed, when they get out you might have to confess them to church leaders, etc.

They hold large privately televised conferences to church youth (12-18 year olds) where they teach about the serious sin and consequences of masturbation. I mean, can you imagine? As a child with raging with hormones and the guilt and shame felt when you obviously are going to fail in this expectation. 

So what you might see on the outside is a member that is trying their hardest to confirm, someone who has shut themselves off to their own desires, let the church think and decide for them what is right.

Yes she is my first and only. There is rebellion, but I think more due to the loss of control that sexual assault victims feel. But combine that with a church culture where you don't have control, and the manipulated loss of a baby put up for adoption. It's terrible, all of it really is.

Thank you for the comment.


----------



## sokillme

ConstantDisbelief said:


> I'll respond to a few other comments later today, first putting some thoughts together. This post is easier for me comment on having spent over 30 years being active in the church.
> 
> I've heard similar observations from other "NeverMos" (Never Mormons, different than Ex-Mormons). The Mormon church is has a rigid set of teachings for what to think, how to feel, what to do, there is an expectation for everything. When an individual fails to meet any of these doctrinal or cultural expectations, guilt, shame, feeling like something is wrong with yourself, wondering why other members seem to be conforming so much better, etc.
> 
> It creates serious mental and emotional damage to the individual. "Wrong" feelings are suppressed, when they get out you might have to confess them to church leaders, etc.
> 
> They hold large privately televised conferences to church youth (12-18 year olds) where they teach about the serious sin and consequences of masturbation. I mean, can you imagine? As a child with raging with hormones and the guilt and shame felt when you obviously are going to fail in this expectation.
> 
> So what you might see on the outside is a member that is trying their hardest to confirm, someone who has shut themselves off to their own desires, let the church think and decide for them what is right.
> 
> Yes she is my first and only. There is rebellion, but I think more due to the loss of control that sexual assault victims feel. But combine that with a church culture where you don't have control, and the manipulated loss of a baby put up for adoption. It's terrible, all of it really is.
> 
> Thank you for the comment.


It's a tragedy in some respects but first not everyone responds in this way. Responds by abusing their family. And besides all that it is very important as a father that you protect your children. One of the ways you do that is to not let them see their father repeatedly abused by their mother. BPD seems to be inherited but also it's possible it is modeled. You need to think long and hard about that. This thing is bigger then just you. And even if it were just you, you have a responsibility to protect yourself and your life.


----------



## WilliamM

My wife is broken. She was a member of a religious cult, as I call it. Her biological father was Mormon, and she has mentioned she thinks her Mormon relations are pretty weird too.

Yeah, she went kind of crazy as she broke away from Pentecostal and attached herself to me. We did reconcile after her screwup, but I was very cruel to her for about a year and a half. 

Turns out she's pretty crazy. Well, at least she never once dared to argue with me about anything. She threw herself on my mercy and begged me to forgive her, and offered to do anything I told her to do. 

Your wife seems to be taking a different approach to her craziness. I think you need to kick her out on the street today. She can go find somewhere else to sleep.

Stop being nice. Stop letting her have a bed to sleep in. Kick her out. She should know the real consequences of her stupidity. 

Stop letting her walk all over you. Stop making excuses for her. The Mormon cult is a reason maybe, but it gives her no excuses.

Kick her out and lock her out. This very minute.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ConstantDisbelief said:


> I'll respond to a few other comments later today, first putting some thoughts together. This post is easier for me comment on having spent over 30 years being active in the church.
> 
> I've heard similar observations from other "NeverMos" (Never Mormons, different than Ex-Mormons). The Mormon church is has a rigid set of teachings for what to think, how to feel, what to do, there is an expectation for everything. When an individual fails to meet any of these doctrinal or cultural expectations, guilt, shame, feeling like something is wrong with yourself, wondering why other members seem to be conforming so much better, etc.
> 
> It creates serious mental and emotional damage to the individual. "Wrong" feelings are suppressed, when they get out you might have to confess them to church leaders, etc.
> 
> They hold large privately televised conferences to church youth (12-18 year olds) where they teach about the serious sin and consequences of masturbation. I mean, can you imagine? As a child with raging with hormones and the guilt and shame felt when you obviously are going to fail in this expectation.
> 
> So what you might see on the outside is a member that is trying their hardest to confirm, someone who has shut themselves off to their own desires, let the church think and decide for them what is right.
> 
> Yes she is my first and only. There is rebellion, but I think more due to the loss of control that sexual assault victims feel. But combine that with a church culture where you don't have control, and the manipulated loss of a baby put up for adoption. It's terrible, all of it really is.
> 
> Thank you for the comment.


You've never really been outside your religion have you? This happens in dang near every other one and you have to learn, it isn't an acceptable reason to cheat or want an open marriage. Oh and you forgot the Molly Mormons, which your wife sounds like, in your description above.


----------



## ConstantDisbelief

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You've never really been outside your religion have you? This happens in dang near every other one and you have to learn, it isn't an acceptable reason to cheat or want an open marriage. Oh and you forgot the Molly Mormons, which your wife sounds like, in your description above.


To be clear we both completely left Mormonism a number of years ago, but its impact seems to be forever. That may be true in other cases ("gone wild" after leaving a religion), but the major driver of what happened is due to the fallout from sexual assault.


----------



## soccermom2three

I don't excuse your wife's behavior but it never occurred to you to contact this guy to tell him to get lost?


----------



## ConstantDisbelief

The situation has changed quite a bit and I thought I'd share in case it helps others.

She's snapped back to reality, stopped making wild demands (like wanting support to let it continue) and it's sinking in what has happened. There has been many hours of discussion, honesty, and discovery between us.

It's important for me to understand the truth and reasons behind this sequence of events. The end result may be the same, but for my own piece of mind I want major decisions based on true and accurate information when possible.

I am coming from a much better space than a few days ago. I finally allowed my emotional link to her to be severed and regained my voice, opinions, thoughts, and feelings in a way that I've never experienced. I didn't realize how codependent I had become and what kind of dynamic that had created where I suppressed and sacrificed my own self in an unhealthy way.

The comments and advice here were incredibly helpful, not in the sense that I fully agree with them, but it causes me to seriously consider and question each one. I think it's important that a spouse or SO going through this takes into consideration that history of their relationship and determine the weight it holds. For example, in mine my wife has a long history of being very honest and forthcoming about what goes on in her life and lying and deceiving is not part of her personality (obviously not talking about what just happened). I am confident in that part of her to not wonder if this has been going on for years, etc. 

With the immediate threat over, the reclamation of self, it's more beneficial to me to talk about how we got here, how to provide a the best experience for our kids, and make plans to part if that's what it takes.

I feel back in control and able to speak up and for the immediate time comfortable with how things are progressing. I do not know what the future will hold, but it will be on terms I am comfortable with. Harder times ahead for sure.

I will say the impact on a victim of sexual assault is huge. The fragmentation of the mind as a coping mechanism reaches into every aspect of life.

I feel for her deeply, but no longer need to feel with her in this grief.


----------



## turnera

ConstantDisbelief said:


> She says she stopped him from taking off her pants, but she gave him an unprotected blowjob and he came in her mouth, stopped him from having intercourse (*due to a concern for my feelings*) they showered together, rubbed themselves on each other, he gave her oral sex.


:rofl:


Oh, yeah, cos giving him a BJ and him going down on her shows REAL CONCERN for your feelings.

And if you believe they didn't screw you are WAY too trusting.



> Then she came home so we could go to our marriage counseling appointment.


So she screws a guy an hour before going to MC with you? And you want to keep her WHY?


----------



## turnera

constantdisbelief said:


> true. Plan is she'll move out asap.


But the KIDS STAY WITH YOU.


----------



## turnera

You should not even CONSIDER her staying unless she (1) gets a full-time job and (2) goes to weekly therapy to work through her church-based repression, sexual assault, and grief over losing a child.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ConstantDisbelief said:


> To be clear we both completely left Mormonism a number of years ago, but its impact seems to be forever. That may be true in other cases ("gone wild" after leaving a religion), but the major driver of what happened is due to the fallout from sexual assault.


If this is going to help you forgive because you want to reconcile cool. No, it is what YOU believe is a major driving force. There are many women and YES MEN, on this board who have never cheated and were sexually assaulted. At some point you have to accept your wife is choosing to act this way.


----------



## Spicy

ConstantDisbelief said:


> I'll respond to a few other comments later today, first putting some thoughts together. This post is easier for me comment on having spent over 30 years being active in the church.
> 
> I've heard similar observations from other "NeverMos" (Never Mormons, different than Ex-Mormons). The Mormon church is has a rigid set of teachings for what to think, how to feel, what to do, there is an expectation for everything. When an individual fails to meet any of these doctrinal or cultural expectations, guilt, shame, feeling like something is wrong with yourself, wondering why other members seem to be conforming so much better, etc.
> 
> It creates serious mental and emotional damage to the individual. "Wrong" feelings are suppressed, when they get out you might have to confess them to church leaders, etc.
> 
> They hold large privately televised conferences to church youth (12-18 year olds) where they teach about the serious sin and consequences of masturbation. I mean, can you imagine? As a child with raging with hormones and the guilt and shame felt when you obviously are going to fail in this expectation.
> 
> So what you might see on the outside is a member that is trying their hardest to confirm, someone who has shut themselves off to their own desires, let the church think and decide for them what is right.
> 
> Yes she is my first and only. There is rebellion, but I think more due to the loss of control that sexual assault victims feel. But combine that with a church culture where you don't have control, and the manipulated loss of a baby put up for adoption. It's terrible, all of it really is.
> 
> Thank you for the comment.


Thank you for the additional insight. That's why I many times hesitate to comment on things, because unless you have lived it, generally, you don't really know. She has several very bad factors at play here. I'm so sorry.


----------



## sokillme

ConstantDisbelief said:


> I do not know what the future will hold, but it will be on terms I am comfortable with. Harder times ahead for sure.


Unless she is motivated to get into deep continuous therapy it's going to be very difficult indeed. Also be careful not everyone who is assaulted ends up cheating on their spouse.


----------



## ConstantDisbelief

soccermom2three said:


> I don't excuse your wife's behavior but it never occurred to you to contact this guy to tell him to get lost?


With the amount of codependent behavior I was experiencing, I believe at the time it was not possible for me reconcile a) feeling that it was completely unacceptable this was going on, and b) knowing it was something she wanted at the time. There was too much guilt in asserting myself, drawing boundaries and setting consequences for them.

Even now I wouldn't handle it by telling the guy to get lost. I'm not going to control what she does. But I am going to make it clear my intentions if behaviors I'm not comfortable with are ignored (not in a threatening way at all).


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ConstantDisbelief said:


> W
> 
> Even now I wouldn't handle it by telling the guy to get lost. I'm not going to control what she does. But I am going to make it clear my intentions if behaviors I'm not comfortable with are ignored (not in a threatening way at all).


It isn't about controlling her or him, it is about controlling what you accept. You are mixing boundaries, with control and assertiveness. They can all work together, but they are not the same. Telling a guy to refrain from contacting your wife is not controlling. Telling her you will not stay or reconcile if she cheats again, your title is quite telling of your thinking in my eyes, is not controlling. Putting boundaries in place is not controlling.

Controlling is a manipulative tactics and rules to control someone. If you demanded she never use a phone, never go outside, monitored all of her phone calls and didn't let her talk to anyone, including family, you are being controlling.

Telling another man to stay the hell away from your wife is not controlling what she does at all.


----------



## turnera

Agreed. Nice Guys often have a really hard time with the concept of strength. And often confuse it with being an a$$hole. Do you see the difference?


----------



## sokillme

turnera said:


> Agreed. Nice Guys often have a really hard time with the concept of strength. And often confuse it with being an a$$hole. Do you see the difference?


Yep you are not an ******* when you tell another man to stay the **** away from your wife. You are also not an ******* when you tell you wife to stop treating you like her parent an not like a husband.


----------



## turnera

sokillme said:


> Yep you are not an ******* when you tell another man to stay the **** away from your wife. You are also not an ******* when you tell you wife to stop treating you like her parent an not like a husband.


 And as odd - or sad - as it seems, women WANT you to do it. Goes back to caveman days.


----------



## sokillme

turnera said:


> And as odd - or sad - as it seems, women WANT you to do it. Goes back to caveman days.


Doesn't seem odd to me. It makes them feel safe, protected and wanted. If you think of it evolutionary if you had to raise kids you want to be with the guy who is going to keep you safe because it keeps you kids safe. Strength and assertiveness are attractive qualities.


----------



## straightshooter

Looks like you are back to the "pick me game", making excuses for her behavior.

We know how this one will end. The simple fact that you believe she never had her pants off makes that clear. You're falling for it hook, line, and sinker


----------



## ConstantDisbelief

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It isn't about controlling her or him, it is about controlling what you accept. You are mixing boundaries, with control and assertiveness. They can all work together, but they are not the same. Telling a guy to refrain from contacting your wife is not controlling. Telling her you will not stay or reconcile if she cheats again, your title is quite telling of your thinking in my eyes, is not controlling. Putting boundaries in place is not controlling.
> 
> Controlling is a manipulative tactics and rules to control someone. If you demanded she never use a phone, never go outside, monitored all of her phone calls and didn't let her talk to anyone, including family, you are being controlling.
> 
> Telling another man to stay the hell away from your wife is not controlling what she does at all.


This is an interesting perspective, thanks. I need to run a scenarios through that lens and see what I think.


----------



## turnera

CD, as hard as it may seem to believe it, everything we espouse here is saying that exact same thing: 

You cannot control another person. You cannot make another person do what you want. You can't stop your spouse from cheating. Lying. Abandoning. Stealing your money. Crashing your car. And so on.

What you CAN do is sit down and come up with your N.U.T.s - your Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms. From the book Hold On To Your N.U.T.s. (https://www.amazon.com/Hold-Your-NUTs-Relationship-Manual/dp/0979054400) - amazing book, by the way.

Those things you will NOT live without or accept someone trying to trample. Once you know your N.U.T.s, you can go about your life making split decisions without agonizing over whether you're doing the right thing. She's doing ABC - does that break my code? Yes? Then I don't accept it. And I take steps NOT to accept it. She is then free to conform to MY worldview, MY integrity, MY N.U.T.s. And if she chooses not to acknowledge and respect them, then we must, by necessity, part ways.

Life really can be that simple. And you would be AMAZED at how attractive that makes you to women. To your woman (barring emotional issues). 

I don't think any of us has told you to go out and be a jerk to her, to pound your chest, to humiliate her. We've said all along: don't accept her poor behavior, and then she is free to accept your standards...or lose you. It all boils down to that. 

Once you reach that point, where you CAN look at everything through that lens, it takes the stress off of so many things. It takes the emotion out. Because you know you're doing what is right for YOU.


----------



## Thor

ConstantDisbelief said:


> I am coming from a much better space than a few days ago. I finally allowed my emotional link to her to be severed and regained my voice, opinions, thoughts, and feelings in a way that I've never experienced. I didn't realize how codependent I had become and what kind of dynamic that had created where I suppressed and sacrificed my own self in an unhealthy way.


That's good.



ConstantDisbelief said:


> With the immediate threat over, the reclamation of self, it's more beneficial to me to talk about how we got here, how to provide a the best experience for our kids, and make plans to part if that's what it takes.
> 
> I feel back in control and able to speak up and for the immediate time comfortable with how things are progressing. I do not know what the future will hold, but it will be on terms I am comfortable with. Harder times ahead for sure.


You were a virgin before her. This is going to cause you some specific issues as you go forward. It will likely make it more difficult for you to leave her. And it will make it very difficult if you stay with her. I am concerned I am detecting a bit too much of a rational analysis going on, which is a psychological trick to avoid the emotional stuff. And, given your sexual histories it also is a way to avoid dealing with some of the specific fears you are likely harboring.




ConstantDisbelief said:


> I will say the impact on a victim of sexual assault is huge. The fragmentation of the mind as a coping mechanism reaches into every aspect of life.
> 
> I feel for her deeply, but no longer need to feel with her in this grief.


You are a Secondary Survivor. You are probably also a bit of a Nice Guy in the pathological sense. Strict religious upbringings can lead to the Nice Guy issues. When the Nice Guy pairs up with the sexual assualt/abuse victim it can be a real Perfect Storm.

This is like when on the airplane they say to put on your own oxygen mask first, then assist any children with theirs. You must watch out for your own health and happiness. When you have an abundance in your life, you can serve others. But when you are drowning you are of no use to anybody else. Also, your wife is a competent adult who has the obligation to do everything she can to be a great spouse. We all have that obligation. If she is aware of a problem, she is obligated to do everything she can to deal with it. If she is aware the sexual assault has caused her problems, she must seek competent psychological therapy for it.

There is no shame if you are not able to cope with her issues.

Her assault does not obligate you to a life of misery and abuse. I know how difficult it can be to be a Secondary. I felt, and still do feel, a lot of sympathy for the child who lost her entire normal life to CSA. I felt a desire to help my now-XW when I learned of her CSA. But the mistake I made which many men (Nice Guys especially) make is letting the assault/abuse be an excuse to accept unacceptable behavior from her. Your wife is old enough and smart enough to know what she did was wrong and it was hurtful to you. She knows the typical consequences for her kind of behavior. Her assault may be a contributing factor to her frame of mind which said it was ok for her to do it, but it does not somehow make it less of an offense that she did it.


----------



## JohnA

Yes a lawyer is important in a no-fault state. Question: do you want to see your children one night a week for 3 hours and every other week-end? If no discuss with a lawyer on how to avoid. At this point there is no excuse not to see a lawyer. Wanting to reconcile and allowing yourself to be destroyed is not the way to go.

As to controlling: so she gets to control you by forcing you to endure her relationship with OM? What else does she get to control, perhaps taking week-end trips with OM and your kids? It is not controlling to say if you steal from me, if you harm those I love, if you harm me I will not associate with you or support you. 

Why does your wife see herself as no better then a tissue? To be used and discarded at whim? Until she see herself as worth more and fights to be worth more all she will ever be is a tissue waiting to be used. Do not allow yourself to be a party to this.


----------



## eric1

If you love your children you will atleast pass this by a lawyer.

There isn't another way to dice the one.


----------



## WonkyNinja

ConstantDisbelief said:


> I'll have to look this up, but is an attorney completely necessary in a no-fault state? I'm going to create the proposal for child custody, division or property, etc. We'll probably be able to do it amicably and I don't want an attorney to suck up money unnecessarily, but I'm done being walked on.


You don't need to have attorneys suck up the money but you do need to have one draw up a Permanent Parenting Plan that protects everyones rights, especially your children.

If you just come up with something the court will tell you to go away and come back with a real one. The court should be acting for the benefit of your children.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Custody is no joke and small errors will blow up in your face. If it is too expensive, sit down with a paralegal at the least.


----------



## Chaparral

How are you ConstantDisbelief?


----------

