# checked her phone, now I feel gutted



## low_n_ohio

Edit (3Apr2014): This is an old thread! Skip to my update on pg. 2 for my current feelings, which differ greatly from what's below from 2-1/2 yrs ago.

We've been together ~4 years, living together most of that. (We actually dated for a few months, then broke up for awhile, then got back together and it's been 4 years the second time.) We're not married, but it feels like we are and we occasionally tell people we are. From the outside we actually have a very good relationship. From the inside, as well, for the most part. We're very affectionate and really enjoy being together, and we fit really well.

All relationships have ups and downs, and I think right now we're in more of a downswing. The problem is that I sometimes don't give her enough attention and don't think of fun things for us to do. I have 2 businesses and took on another job from a guy with an idea, and the stress is affecting me. When I have free time, I'm more likely to want to relax at home than go downtown and do something social with my GF, and I haven't been happy much lately. Even in this downswing we went out a couple nights ago and she told me more than once how she's so in love with me and we're so lucky to be together.

That said, she's very flirtatious and it bothers me. I've had a hard time trusting her completely due to this and some things from the beginning of our relationship, but that was before we were exclusive. I've never been the least bit jealous or mistrusting with anyone else I've dated, so I feel like I may have good reason. I found this site a few months ago when her sister got divorced and I was looking up stuff pertaining to them. I started reading and have become a regular lurker until today. So many stories I read and thought "wow, I'm so glad I have a good relationship", then last night it all crumbled.

Last night she was asleep on the couch and on a tiny hunch I looked through her phone. I would'nt have done it if I hadn't been reading this site where so many people feel spouses don't have a right to secrets. She's stated in the past that she's very against people invading her privacy with regards to her phone.

The first person in her text message list was "unknown" (name not stored with # in contacts) but 800 of the 2000 messages stored on her phone were to this person. I read through them and my heart sank. It was some guy, there was inappropriate talk, provocative photos shared. Not naked, but so what. Like her butt in a pair of sexy panties, his back muscles, shoulder tattoo.

Most of the talk was regular convo, but there were some mentions from him expressing his desire for her, wanting to devour her, once he changed some of her words using "cum" instead of "come". Here's an excerpt:

Him: Good night plaything
Her: That was not very endearing, but I guess I can work with it
Him: Don't expect me to not be thinkng of doing things to ur hot ass
Her: Things you shouldn't keep to yourself
--next morning--
Her: Good am! -kiss-
Him: Hey krazzzzy
Her: Zzzz is right, I'm ultra tired this morning.
Her: Busy day?
-- that afternoon--
Her: Ooooh wanting to do some naughty naughty things to you right now
--then it reverts to standard convo.

That's probably the worst of it, or at least of the portion I was able to read, but there was another volley that went something like she was asking about his day, he had a lot going on, she said "Should I send you a pic of my _____ for motivation?" He said "What's the blank?" She said "Boobs?" "And does it matter?" She didn't send any pics that time.

She met this guy around a year ago at a catering she was doing and has been texting since. A couple months ago we had a problem over this very thing with this guy. We were watching TV one night and her phone got a text msg. I passed it to her and noticed the name as a male's name I didn't recognize. I asked her about it and she immediately snatched the phone out of my hand and got very defensive. I felt it had to be something inappropriate and went off. Not screaming or yelling, but telling her how shocked and dissappointed I was and questioning our relationship. She ended up deleting all of the messages before I had a chance to ask to see them and within a day or so we made up and she promised to never contact him again. Clearly that didn't happen.

She says she's seen him at one other catered event and ran into him out of the blue at the farmer's market 2 months ago. She says those are the only times she's seen him and has never done anything physical, nor would she. I do believe her despite how everyone here will tell me where there's smoke there's fire, and they've definitely done it. There was no mention whatsoever in the texts of any kind of plans to meet or talk about past meetings, I pretty much always know where she is if she's not with me, and when she does caterings she usually has my little brother or a mutual friend working with her. Also, she's not a very good liar; I can usually tell when she's lying.

When I started reading I was stunned. I felt dizzy and disoriented and like I was in another universe. I couldn't hardly believe it. It's so hard for this to register in my brain, as it so doesn't fit with the way she talks and acts with me, as if she loves me completely and is all mine. I tried to call him from her phone a few times but he wouldn't answer. I tried again today from my phone and with the number blocked, but no answer. While I just said I don't think they did anything physical, I still can't get the thought out of my mind. I mean with only her word to go on, how can I help but wonder?

Right now I feel like total crap every time I think about it. She slept on the couch last night and has been crying. She's apologized profusely and really doesn't want to break up. I'm not giving her the silent treatment, but I'm not initiating conversation and don't want to touch her or do things with her. I do deep down, but I feel it's wrong after the betrayal. It really sucks, though, because I'm going against deeply ingrained behavior that makes me feel good. I hate this, but I can't just act like things are OK.

I've got to figure out where to go from here. I want to get married, I want to have kids, and I wanted it to be with her. I wish so much for this one thing about her to be different. It was totally wrong of me to neglect her, but I'm aware of it and have every intention of changing it. But how can I marry someone I can't trust to remain faithful through the hard times? Marriage won't always be easy. She has plenty of problems stemming from her childhood/controlling father and she admits it. She says she's not sure why she participated in this attention seeking behavior, but it did provide some measure of good feelings which she felt she needed. I'm sure it's related to her childhood. She also says her self esteem is low and this was one way of getting self esteem boosts and feeling desired. I can deal with issues, but I've gotta have trust.

How can you regain trust?

P.S. She'll probably come here and read this thread. She saw me writing and asked about it so I told her. I doubt she'll register an account to respond, though.


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## RoseRed

By her heartfelt deep remorse, repenting (which means absolute end of the OM) and she will promise to work on regaining your trust by her actions to back up her words.

By you absolutely and truly forgiving her... to let the past go and move foreward.

I would highly recommend that you both go to couples/pre-marital councelling to truly discover what it is to love another. The wants, needs and expectations you have of each other in marriage. To learn how to truly communicate in an effective constructive manner. To learn how to be an observant person and a good listener. This should be undertaken with an open mind heart and soul. Find out if you each have a true compatibility before you commit to marriage.

blessings to you both!


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## aug

low_n_ohio said:


> I've got to figure out where to go from here. I want to get married, I want to have kids, and I wanted it to be with her. I wish so much for this one thing about her to be different. It was totally wrong of me to neglect her, but I'm aware of it and have every intention of changing it. But how can I marry someone I can't trust to remain faithful through the hard times? *Marriage won't always be easy.* She has plenty of problems stemming from her childhood/controlling father and she admits it. She says she's not sure why she participated in this attention seeking behavior, but it did provide some measure of good feelings which she felt she needed. I'm sure it's related to her childhood. She also says her self esteem is low and this was one way of getting self esteem boosts and feeling desired. I can deal with issues, but I've gotta have trust.
> 
> How can you regain trust?


Lucky you're not married. Lucky you found out now.

You didnt trust her 4 years ago. And again now.

You are right. Marriage is not easy. The lack of trust before the start of marriage does not bode well for a good healthy marriage.

If you have businesses to run and working hard to support a family, the last thing you want to worry about is an unfaithful wife.

I think you should consider moving on.


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## low_n_ohio

I know how I'm going to sound when I say this, as I, myself, have read many other people's threads and thought "Man, dump her! There's many more fish in the sea!" but she really is special. I've dated plenty of women and I'm not blindly enchanted. I've never been with anyone else I thought would make a better mother for my children, she's a really great person; everyone that meets her loves her; so many people have told me how lucky I am and said I'd better hurry up and marry her. We do both have a lot invested in each other, and I am still madly in love with her. She's very attractive, as well!

This is a really tough situation and I appreciate everyone's input.


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## sam83

OK u can copy this thread to coping with infidelity they'll give u great advices and ideas to deal with this and what to do exactly but u should be ready to follow what they'll tell u and what ur GF have to do to regain ur trust again 

my own advice if u gonna to forgive her and give her another chance and marry her please don't do it without solid prenub to protect yourself in the future 

I wish u good luck bro


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## Halien

low_n_ohio said:


> Last night she was asleep on the couch and on a tiny hunch I looked through her phone. I would'nt have done it if I hadn't been reading this site where so many people feel spouses don't have a right to secrets. She's stated in the past that she's very against people invading her privacy with regards to her phone.


I really think you owe it to yourself to be honest with yourself about this relationship. Take out all the fears of how you might not find another woman this beautiful, or with her personality, or whatever it is that you like about her. Just look at it logically.

What is her goal in living with you? Certainly, she has given you some inkling as to whether it is to simply pass time, or if she hopes it develops into something more, like marriage.

If it is marriage, then ask yourself how you could possibly marry someone with so little character and integrity as to carry on such a relationship, while looking you in the eye, or making love to you. While things are still building to marriage, she did this to you.

Ask yourself with your logical hat on why she clings to her desire for privacy. If you married someone with character and integrity, privacy is a non-issue when those close to us are hurt by it. We willingly give up this privacy if our partner feels insecure at times.

Clearly, marriage will inevitably hold long periods where the two of you lose sight of each other, whether it is around childbirth, new jobs, or other issue with life. You'll remember this time, when the two of you had none of these, and she still cheated. Without a radical change in her personality, you will be in a marriage where trust seems like a fantasy.


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## sigma1299

At a minimum you've got to have a serious WTF conversation. I mean you're not married so why doesn't she just leave to go be with this other guy? Me personally I would call it over and then if I felt like it let her see if she could convince me to come back - which honestly would be very hard for her to do. I mean can you see yourself having a child with her given this - BEFORE YOU'RE EVEN MARRIED?!?!

You're at a watershed moment. There is no point in you having any regard for her privacy or feelings on this - none!! You need to lay down the law hard and fast and put up with zero B.S. I mean zero. I'm advocating you adopt a tougher position than I would if you were married because you're not - it's just not the same (I dated my wife 8 years before we married). Bottom line she has to turn herself inside out to convince you why you should continue to invest any more of your life in her cheating [email protected]@. If she can't or won't do that show her the door and count your blessings that you're not married. 

Agree get yourself to the infidelity forum.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Locard

I dated many "special" girls. 

An ounce of prevention equals a pound of cure.


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## CandieGirl

Ouff...I always wonder why people sometimes talk themselves into staying in sh*t relationships. I've been guilty of it myself! Eventually, you will hit your rock bottom and you'll decide for yourself that enough is enough. I dont think anyone on here can change your mind for you. You've already decided to keep her, since 'everyone loves her and she's so attractive'. Too bad she's got zero integrity.


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## Chaparral

Well now you know why she wants her privacy. 

Unless she gives you all passwords and access to phones, computers, emails (including work)etc. your just spinning your wheels. Two people become one when married. There is NO need or room for privacy in a relationship that is headed for marriage either.

An EA like this can get started very easily. And, you know what the OM wants and where this would have eventually ended up.

You have seen what needs to be done in other threads to verify no contact but if she is reading these she will be able to go underground.

What has been her reaction to a no contact letter?


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## A Bit Much

low_n_ohio I guess the only advice I have for you is this...

Consider yourself warned. Maybe she will never get into a situation like this again, but you know from her track record in this area she's weak. If you insist on continuing in this relationship, your eyes are now wide open. It's like knowing the stove is hot, but touching it anyway. 

I hope she will never betray your trust again, but IMO she needs more attention than you are able to give her, and it won't be enough somewhere down the road. She'll go back to what makes her feel good.


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## Dadof3

I feel for your situation, but lets boil down the facts:

1 - You aren't married to her or her to you. Even if you've been together for several years - you aren't even engaged. Does she have a duty to be loyal to you and your relationship? I'm not so sure about that. If you were engaged - which means there is a commitment to marry and a date to marry, would be something more solid. Which brings me to the next point:

2 - What are her desires for marriage? If she is enjoying her singleness (and these silly men who want to get in her pants), she may not be marriage material yet.

Best case scenario - you get engaged and she drops the guy. Worst case scenario - you get engaged (and she still chats and flirts with the guy, decides to have a last "fling" before marriage) - which of these two extremes do you see her tending towards? What would that tell you about her character?

She may be right for you, but you have to realize that you may not be right for her, and it appears she isn't ready to settle down and make a serious commitment. 

Dating should only be used (as opposed to shacking up) to determine someones suitability (mutually) for marriage. If you've been shacking up, you've already got two strikes against a future marriage. The type of behavior she is displaying with this other guy? Strike three. She should be out.

Good luck with this and I hope it works out best for both of you.


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## Soccerfan73

Just be careful. She may be the Woman of the Year or whatever, but that's not so great if you'll have to look over your shoulder to see if she's dating someone behind your back. Not a comfortable way to live.


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## Sanity

Brother I feel for you, but I'll give it to you straight. More than likely your GF is at a minimum having an EA and possibly a PA. She clearly does not value you as a partner and person and the very thought that another man is touching your mate AND she allows it should repulse you.

Stop thinking with your penis and kick her to the curb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sinnister

Who cares if other people say to hurry up and marry her? They are basing their opinion on a false sense of reality.

You've read the book from cover to end. They read the first page. Do you really want to be looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life?


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## Jellybeans

*Do not* marry this chick. 
She does not have your best interests. She is not committed 100% to you.

This... is not a woman who wants to be with you and only you:

_ It was some guy, there was inappropriate talk, provocative photos shared. Not naked, but so what. Like *her butt in a pair of sexy panties*, his back muscles, shoulder tattoo.

Most of the talk was regular convo, but there were some mentions from him expressing his desire for her, wanting to devour her, once he changed some of her words using "cum" instead of "come". Here's an excerpt:

Him: Good night plaything
Her: That was not very endearing, but I guess I can work with it
Him: Don't expect me to not be thinkng of doing things to ur hot ass
Her: Things you shouldn't keep to yourself
--next morning--
Her: Good am! -kiss-
Him: Hey krazzzzy
Her: Zzzz is right, I'm ultra tired this morning.
Her: Busy day?
-- that afternoon--
*Her: Ooooh wanting to do some naughty naughty things to you right now*--then it reverts to standard convo._

And then after that she lied about being in touch with him again

No dice, dude.

Tell her you're not interested in an open relationship. If that guy has a girlfriend, tell her about it.


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## Jellybeans

_That said, she's very flirtatious and it bothers me. I've had a hard time trusting her completely *due to this and some things from the beginning of our relationship*, but that was before we were exclusive. I've never been the least bit jealous or mistrusting with anyone else I've dated, *so I feel like I may have good reason*_

You were vague here so please elaborate.


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## RandomDude

As much of a flirt as I am, that's a tad too far in my opinion. And sure she may not be lying to you when it comes to the PA, but it could very well be an EA which she has been entertaining thoughts of f--king him and probably while even making love to you.

She has to make the choice whether to go the hard yards to earn your trust back, but otherwise it's best you move on. If you are lenient in this, it WILL happen again. I would be most likely pimping out the missus at this point! Capitalism! :rofl:


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## lordmayhem

You've been given a preview of your future if you marry this woman, not everyone gets that. You say she's overly flirtacious, and now its obvious she has very low boundaries. Obviously she's not special enough not to cheat on you. Marriage is a lifetime commitment, and one of the vows is to forsake all others. So what do you think is going to happen you're both busy raising children, working to pay the bills, then she feels you're not paying enough attention to her or she gets bored?

Like chapparal said, NOW you know why she likes her privacy, so she can play with other men on the side. Sure people like her and she's so nice to people.....a little too nice. This OM probably wasn't the first, and he isn't going to be the last. 

Marry her at your own risk, which I suspect you will since you've made it abundantly clear that you will probably ignore all advice here. You will most likely be headed toward the CWI forum or some other infidelity support forum after you get married and ask why would the woman you love so much, cheated on you and ripped your heart out.


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## SimplyAmorous

Halien said:


> Ask yourself with your logical hat on why she clings to her desire for privacy. If you married someone with character and integrity, privacy is a non-issue when those close to us are hurt by it. We willingly give up this privacy if our partner feels insecure at times.


 I agree with Halien here 100%. I am one of those proponets of "NO SECRETS" "total transparency" - always and forever. Her phone is his phone, her mail is his mail, his facebook is her facebook type thinking. 

But I am also someone who believes in forgiveness, and if YOU truly got caught up in ignoring her , she felt attention starved - My lord 3 JOBS!! .....you said


> The problem is that I sometimes don't give her enough attention and don't think of fun things for us to do. I have 2 businesses and took on another job from a guy with an idea, and the stress is affecting me. When I have free time, I'm more likely to want to relax at home than go downtown and do something social with my GF, and I haven't been happy much lately


It WAS attention seeking behavior, she seemed to owe up to this fact, even if you had to catch her, saying


> She says she's not sure why she participated in this attention seeking behavior, but it did provide some measure of good feelings which she felt she needed. I'm sure it's related to her childhood. She also says her self esteem is low and this was one way of getting self esteem boosts and feeling desired. I can deal with issues, but I've gotta have trust .



Doesn't mean you have to take her back, but do you love her, and how does she feel about YOU, do you feel she has suffered in her own way wanting MORE of you? 

That privacy stuff needs blown to the wind though, if she can not change in this area, frankly I would leave her. If she is MORE THAN WILLING to open her life up to you, her phone, be more open about who she talks too, and YOU actively work to make her more of a priority in return, I personally FEEL it would be worth another chance. 

I would also learn of her love languages, some women need alot of attention (quality time, words of affirmation is their thing) for them to be matched with a WorkAholic with a little kiss in the morning when he leaves for work, then not seeing him till 9 pm with a possible "I love you" but am too tired to do anything with you - will only spell DISASTER and lonliness in marraige. 

You & her need to find a balance you both are satisfied with, if you love enough to give this another try. Communicate honesty, if you feel she is sincere, forgive her --BUT she needs to do her part in total transparnecy before you to rebuild your TRUST (accept nothing less). 


Her self esteem is low, your love for her could be a healing balm in this area. None of us are perfect, but people manage to love us anyway (thank God ) People in our life DO make a profound difference, but you don't want to be used. Be very careful here. My own example >> My own self esteem was low when I met my husband in my teens, I had some abandonment issues, didn't like my family - although flirting with other men was not my thing, I was rather Bi**y and not so nice to him. He loved me anyway instead of throwing me away. His love has really, changed my life. I have much self esteen today. So for him , for us, thank God he stood beside me. 

Relationships can be messy -but they are still worth it.


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## Chaparral

SimplyAmorous said:


> I agree with Halien here 100%. I am one of those proponets of "NO SECRETS" "total transparency" - always and forever. Her phone is his phone, her mail is his mail, his facebook is her facebook type thinking.
> 
> But I am also someone who believes in forgiveness, and if YOU truly got caught up in ignoring her , she felt attention starved - My lord 3 JOBS!! .....you said
> 
> It WAS attention seeking behavior, she seemed to owe up to this fact, even if you had to catch her, saying
> 
> 
> Doesn't mean you have to take her back, but do you love her, and how does she feel about YOU, do you feel she has suffered in her own way wanting MORE of you?
> 
> That privacy stuff needs blown to the wind though, if she can not change in this area, frankly I would leave her. If she is MORE THAN WILLING to open her life up to you, her phone, be more open about who she talks too, and YOU actively work to make her more of a priority in return, I personally FEEL it would be worth another chance.
> 
> I would also learn of her love languages, some women need alot of attention (quality time, words of affirmation is their thing) for them to be matched with a WorkAholic with a little kiss in the morning when he leaves for work, then not seeing him till 9 pm with a possible "I love you" but am too tired to do anything with you - will only spell DISASTER and lonliness in marraige.
> 
> You & her need to find a balance you both are satisfied with, if you love enough to give this another try. Communicate honesty, if you feel she is sincere, forgive her --BUT she needs to do her part in total transparnecy before you to rebuild your TRUST (accept nothing less).
> 
> 
> Her self esteem is low, your love for her could be a healing balm in this area. None of us are perfect, but people manage to love us anyway (thank God ) People in our life DO make a profound difference, but you don't want to be used. Be very careful here. My own example >> My own self esteem was low when I met my husband in my teens, I had some abandonment issues, didn't like my family - although flirting with other men was not my thing, I was rather Bi**y and not so nice to him. He loved me anyway instead of throwing me away. His love has really, changed my life. I have much self esteen today. So for him , for us, thank God he stood beside me.
> 
> Relationships can be messy -but they are still worth it.




:iagree::iagree::iagree: 100%

Good luck


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## Wheels65

She is only upset because you caught her, otherwise she would be fine with it as she has been.

I would bail.


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## Lonely-n-Love

This reminds me of my first wife. Similar situation. She was on an online msgr alot. But she gave me her login info and she knew i had it. So using my PC (she also used it due to her breaking hers) I set the msgr to archive the messages. a few days later i checked them. I was stunned by the way she was talking to these guys...when I confronted her she believed she had done nothing wrong because she does it all the time. She instead got back at me for not trusting her...though after that i knew why i didn't trust her...Honestly your best bet is to NOT admit what you saw and instead try to trick her into admitting it first. That way you can get the chance to work it out.

LnL


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## lordmayhem

It's been six days since the OP has logged in, so he hasn't read anything since the 20th. Probably didn't really like what he was reading. So like most BSs, he's in the initial shock/denial mode and is probably sweeping this under the rug in hopes of keeping the status quo in the marriage. Oh well. Happens a lot around here.


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## Jellybeans

^ Ya, and if he does come back it will be in the Coping forum with a whole "I caught her cheating with this guy and it never ended."

Call me a psychic.


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## low_n_ohio

I'm back! Sorry it took me 2.5 years to update this thread. Holy Crapoli, where has the time gone!? Thank you all for your straightforward and ACCURATE posts. When I went back and read through my posts in this thread, I can hardly believe how... willfully blind, I guess... I was. Thankfully I kept your good advice in the back of my mind all this time.

I'm not going to make this a 1000 word post. I do have much to tell, and I've already written a new thread and posted it, but it said a moderator would have to approve before it would appear. I put it in the CWI section. This was Tuesday night and it still hasn't shown up. Anyone know who the moderator is so I can PM him/her? I wanna tell my story and get some advice/answers! If you're a mod reading this, please look for a pending thread from me in Coping with Infidelity.


*Quick summary:*

We went to counselling and worked through it. Things were ok for a while, and bounced between rocky and ok. Periodic talk of marriage and children, but I never was able to regain trust in her, largely due to her continued display of dishonesty. Nothing like EA/texting, and many healthy relationships probably would’ve never considered them issues, but I did.

Until two nights ago.
April 1, unfortunately it wasn’t an April fool’s prank. She ran out on an errand and forgot her phone. (Interesting tidbit: I learned that her “errand” was running over to her pregnant friend’s house to borrow some pee on a pregnancy test to give me an April fool…)

While she was gone, I took a look on her phone and found evidence of many texts to/from some guy, and phone calls, the most recent being 10 minutes long that morning. Most of the messages shown on the log had been deleted. However, the last several were still there, including some disgusting pics of his wiener. I texted him from her phone as if I was her and basically got confirmation that she’d been sending nudie pics, too. (Plenty of them in her camera app, but she sent them to me (too, apparently…) so I didn’t think much of it before.)

Dang it! I said this wasn’t going to be a thousand words since I already started a new thread on it, which is apparently pending moderator approval…

Anyways, facebook recon turned up some messages between them about how her phone was having issues, and how I ordered a new part for it and was going to take it apart and fix it for her when the part arrived. So “for the short term, no messages, ok?” Apparently she didn’t want me fixing her phone, powering it up, and finding something I’d not like… Also him: “ok no worries, but that is going to suck! going to miss you” and her: “me tooooo!!!” blah blah blah, even mentioned me by name and how I was good with these things so should be back up and running soon.

So info from the facebook messages is that she’s been texting for weeks at least. She met him several months ago. He’s from a few states away and met on business. And he knows about me and her relationship with me. When I texted him from my phone as myself, he claimed he didn’t know of her relationship. What a lying puss.

Despite everything, I highly doubt she’s ever touched him physically. She does this crap for attention to augment her crippled self-esteem, not that it makes it ok or anything. Anyways, he’s uglier than me, fatter than me, balder than me, his wang is maybe 60% the size of mine (ample pics for comparison), and I can say with a certainty of 9,999.7/10,000 that he’s stupider than me.

Her mom is temporarily staying with us post hip replacement surgery, and I showed her everything on the phone. She was disgusted and shocked. I haven't shown/told anyone else yet, but want to and have a question on this in my new thread.

_(Actually, one other person knows; today one of my business partners was standing over my shoulder while I was flipping through my open documents looking for something and accidentally opened the pics I took of her SMS chat with him, d1ck pics and all... His first instinct was an uncertain laugh, but I felt compelled to explain the whole situation...)_

*Summary of summary:*

I never married her, and I’M DONE WITH HER!!! IT’S OVER!

Mods, please approve my pending thread in CWI, because I’m sad and know I’m going to be even more so. I want to tell my story and get advice on dealing with the feelings, and logistics on fully ending this thing.

801 words.


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## AliceA

Sorry to hear that LnO. I only just saw this thread because of your update; I hope you find the advice you seek to help you through this.


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## LongWalk

Holy Batman! Well, two years wasted. Sorry for you. Dumping her asap is your only choice.

She does it for attention, not love. But if she had to put out to keep the flow of sexting up, she might go physical with an OM.


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## low_n_ohio

breeze said:


> Sorry to hear that LnO. I only just saw this thread because of your update; I hope you find the advice you seek to help you through this.


Thanks!



LongWalk said:


> Holy Batman! Well, two years wasted. Sorry for you. Dumping her asap is your only choice.
> 
> She does it for attention, not love. But if she had to put out to keep the flow of sexting up, she might go physical with an OM.


At least 2 yrs wasted is better than 2 yrs plus half of my net worth and strained children's lives. I'm trying to look at the brighter side...


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## low_n_ohio

I SO want to send a snarky comment to the guy, but keep wondering if it'd be much better to just say nothing. "What Would Lawyer Do"

Something like: _"For better photography results you might want to try the macro setting..."_


----------



## BostonBruins32

I would strongly advise you to think long and hard about marrying a rogue flirt or attention seeker. Especially when you have proof now, before even marrying.

My wife was a flirt. Tons of "guy friends". I thought it was curious but I let it go. I married her. Now I see behavior that doesn't necessarily prove to be cheating, but sometimes feels on the cusp of it. She still has exes all over her facebook. Tons of guy friends who physically disappeared once she began dating me. During a recent downturn in our relationship, I'm about 75% sure she aired laundry to a guy "friend" . So my point is please really consider these things and current behaviors before you commit. The marriage will have ups and downs. You need to be sure she'll put the energy in the marriage during troubling times, rather than reach out to other men for support.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AliceA

The guy is nothing to you. If it wasn't him, it'd be another dude, there's so many out there who wouldn't say 'no' to a woman chatting them up and sending them naked pics. It's like someone hitting you with a stick and you hating the stick. The person hitting you is the problem.


----------



## DoF

OP, EVERYTHING you said sounds like it's coming straight from your heart.

Unfortunately, body part that does reasoning and thinking is your brain.

Learn to ignore your heart.

Your girlfriend cheated on you and completely broke your trust. Even if it wasn't physical (which I would assume it might have gotten, based on what you found) it's still cheating. 

Flip the page, ask her how she would feel in your shoes!!!

I think you did the right thing looking at her phone. She gave you EVERY reason to do so as you already caught her out initially and knew something was up etc. Next natural step would be to look further. People that are on the "extreme" side of "privacy" are the ones that one should be concerned with. If one has nothing to hide, there is no reason for privacy (to an extent of course).

My advice, this is straight from my brain since my heart has no play/place in your relationship currently.

You tell her exactly what she did wrong and leave her for good (no future contact etc/nothing). When and if you do, also ask her what you did wrong in the relationship (see if you can learn from your mistakes). I have a feeling "workaholic" can be an issue (just a shot in the dark). Find out, and do your best to pay attention to whatever that is in your next relationship.

Middle ground would be to go to counseling and see if that helps. Unfortunately, once trust is broken it is VERY hard to ever get over that hump and most people fail in the end anyways.

I find it funny how you said "she is truly special". This is a perfect example of heart thinking here. If she was "truly special" she would've never went off and have a intimate relationship with another man. A good/smart woman will come to you and communicate about her troubles and things that are slowly/might in the future put her over the edge and leave you.

Someone truly special also let's one go and takes time to hear/recover LONG LONG BEFORE they get into another relationship.

She is quite opposite of special IMO. 

Assuming you do leave, remember, it will be completely natural to feel like complete crap (if you love this girl). It will take time to heal and recover but in the end, it's for the best IMO. DO NOT date before your love for her is completely gone. In time, you will be WAY better off.

Good luck


----------



## DoF

BostonBruins32 said:


> I would strongly advise you to think long and hard about marrying a rogue flirt or attention seeker. Especially when you have proof now, before even marrying.
> 
> My wife was a flirt. Tons of "guy friends". I thought it was curious but I let it go. I married her. Now I see behavior that doesn't necessarily prove to be cheating, but sometimes feels on the cusp of it. She still has exes all over her facebook. Tons of guy friends who physically disappeared once she began dating me. During a recent downturn in our relationship, I'm about 75% sure she aired laundry to a guy "friend" . So my point is please really consider these things and current behaviors before you commit. The marriage will have ups and downs. You need to be sure she'll put the energy in the marriage during troubling times, rather than reach out to other men for support.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Clearly, your wife doesn't understand man. There is NO such a thing as a male/female friendship if male is not attracted to a woman.

You should teach her that......you know it, don't you?


----------



## turnera

If you know you're done, and you think she may try to get something from you when you split (don't know about common law marriages in your state), you could keep copies of it all and tell her either walk away or you post it all.


----------



## tulsy

low_n_ohio said:


> I'm back! Sorry it took me 2.5 years to update this thread. ... found evidence of many texts to/from some guy, and phone calls, the most recent being 10 minutes long that morning. Most of the messages shown on the log had been deleted. However, the last several were still there, including some disgusting pics of his wiener. I texted him from her phone as if I was her and basically got confirmation that she’d been sending nudie pics, too. (Plenty of them in her camera app, but she sent them to me (too, apparently…) so I didn’t think much of it before.)....


What a waste of 2.5 years. Shoulda' left her the first time....now this? Who knows how many times/men this has happened with....you'll certainly NEVER know the whole truth.

Honestly, you'd be stupid to waste any more of your life with this chick. She's can never be trusted. Once again, you've discovered who she really is...it's not who she pretends to be. 

Seriously....end all communication with her, permanently. She's a lying serial cheater and this behavior will never end. 

Don't waste any more time. Learn from this and move on dude.


----------



## C123

First, people should read the entire string before posting.

Second, you dodged a bullet my friend. I read the earlier posts and was going to post "run away!" and then saw your most recent post and although was sad to read it, was glad you never married and you're finally going to leave.

You can do better. Marriage makes nothing easier and everything harder. Kids even more so. Just remember those two sentences when thinking about marriage in the future. NOTHING gets easier with marriage. EVERYTHING gets harder and more complicated.

Best of luck!!!


----------



## low_n_ohio

Thanks for the responses. I went back and edited the first post to put a line at the beginning that this is an old thread and to be sure and read the update on pg 2. I am DONE with her.

I already told her it's over. I was actually pretty upset when I confronted her and said a lot of things. I still stand by most of them, like telling her how selfish she is, but one thing I said is really bothering me; I called her a piece of sh*t. She immediately said "You're right, I am a piece of sh*t." This is really tearing me up inside; as wrong as she was for what she did, I really wish I hadn't called her that. I haven't hardly talked to her since, and haven't addressed that, but I want to apologize for that. At the same time, I don't want her to think I'm forgiving her...

It's going to be a drawn out process to end it completely. I bought the house we're living in completely by myself, with no help from her. She started her own business a year or two ago, and since then I've been mostly supporting us, especially the last several months after she lost her best client. She pays the water/electric/gas, and her car note, and probably 1/2-2/3 of the food, but I pay for everything else. Mortgage/taxes/insurance, auto insurance for both of us, internet, tv, her phone, my phone, my health insurance, life insurance with her as beneficiary (and my father), everything when we go out or go on vacation. I've also paid her car note the last 2 months and paid ~3 months worth of utilities recently when she let them get way behind. I also gave her $1600 to pay back a friend she'd borrowed money from, who was requesting repayment.

Also as I mentioned her mom is temporarily staying with us after a hip surgery so we can care for her as she heals. The house is full of her stuff; her father passed a couple years ago and left 3 huge storage rooms full of stuff. It was a monumental effort to get them cleaned out, and she now has a ton of stuff. She can't afford to just rent some place and move out.

As angry as I am with her, I do still love her and don't want to be excessively harsh. Plus, while I'm committed to ensuring this stays ended, I know this is going to be a hard battle for me. I'll probably need to read threads here every day for awhile.

Any suggestions on logistics of the split? I know she's going to want to try some kind of roommate thing at least for awhile, but I really don't think that would work or be healthy.


----------



## low_n_ohio

turnera said:


> If you know you're done, and you think she may try to get something from you when you split (don't know about common law marriages in your state), you could keep copies of it all and tell her either walk away or you post it all.


I don't think she'll try something like this, at least not put much effort into it. Luckily I recently semi made-up with her sister (there'd been some bad blood due to something I'd said at one of her divorce hearings). Her sister would be the bug in her ear telling her to try to get something from me. I'll probably show her the pics I took and get her more on my side.

I'll also speak with an attorney. There's a free service here where you call, explain your issue, and they'll find an appropriate attorney for you and give you the contact info. The attorney then gives you a free 30min consultation.


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## Hope1964

Her mom lives there and you own the house by yourself? Well, I guess it's time for her to move in with her mother in whatever part of the house her mother is staying. Give them a month to move all their stuff out and stick to it. Spend time away from the house in the meanwhile.

Does this guy she talked to have a wife? If so you should tell her.

Does your gfs mom know what she did? You should tell her too.


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## LongWalk

LIO,

You really were inoculated by TAM and it helped you to figure things out. It cold have dragged on even longer.

How old are you and you stbxgf?

Do you find her attractive? Has your sex life been good? Does she make love to you with passion or has it been merely duty sex?

Save all the photos and texts of course. They give you a lot of leverage in your split up. You could put OM up on Cheaterville. They will not let you post explicit photo but you could black out is junk and post them. Hurting OM will get him to contact your stbxgf. He will beg her to beg you take down the post. That could establish momentum in your separation from stbxgf.

As far as providing a soft landing for her, I wouldn't agonize over it. Tell her she has two weeks to leave and month to get her stuff out. Her mother must have a pension.

To continue to underwrite her cake eating lifestyle after her serial betrayal will make you feel sick. You will hate yourself if you do not show her the brutal consequences.

How do you feel about having sex with her now? She will probably try to jump your bone to buy goodwill and delay being forced out.

Her mother is going to be so p!ssed at her. Is the MIL nice?

How often did you think of TAM during the period of reconciliation?


----------



## LongWalk

Hope,

Interesting that we came up with roughly the same time limit, one month. I noticed your post when mine went up.


----------



## low_n_ohio

Hope1964 said:


> ...
> Does this guy she talked to have a wife? If so you should tell her.
> 
> Does your gfs mom know what she did? You should tell her too.


I don't think he's married. From his facebook it looks like he may have a girlfriend, but I can no longer see it because my stbx changed her facebook password (I could see his page when logged on as her because they're friends. I'm not, and his privacy settings don't let non-friends see it.)

Yes her mom knows. I showed her everything on the phone minutes after I discovered it. She was shocked and disgusted.



LongWalk said:


> ...
> How old are you and you stbxgf?
> 
> Do you find her attractive?


I'm 35, she's 32.

Yes, she's attractive, and I find her so. She is probably 25 lbs or so overweight, which she put on during our relationship, and I'd find her more attractive without it, but I've almost never told her that, and when I did it was very gently at a counceling session.

Actually, this is going to open a whole new can of worms with you guys... She drinks a lot, let's just go ahead and call her an alcoholic. If she were to stop drinking, she'd immediately shed 20 lbs, probably in less than a month. I started drinking a lot with her, and did for awhile, but finally quit. I was the heaviest I've been when drinking (LOTS of extra calories every day) and it dropped away fast when I quit. She'd tell me I was too skinny and needed to work out (even at my heaviest, nobody would've called me fat...) However, despite thinking it, I'd never dream of telling her she's too fat and it's because of her drinking!

When I quit I asked her if she'd do it with me. She said no, but that she'd quit drinking when I quit using opiates (yes I was on those for a while.) It took awhile, and when I did it, it was THE most agonizing, difficult experience of my life, but I did finally quit opiates. But she won't uphold her end of the bargain. (I'll talk more about the opiates in a bit.) When we'd argue about stuff and she'd say she just knows I'm never going to marry her, I'd tell her she'd have to quit drinking before I'd consider it. I know how hard it is (and kicking opiates was 100 times harder!), and had to know she could and would do it before I'd ever commit.



LongWalk said:


> ...
> Has your sex life been good? Does she make love to you with passion or has it been merely duty sex?
> 
> How do you feel about having sex with her now? She will probably try to jump your bone to buy goodwill and delay being forced out.


For the most part, yes sex was good. She and I've both agreed many times that we do it together way better than anyone else we've been with, which isn't a small number for either of us. I guess you could say we're very compatible. Certainly lots of passion.

Lots of sex at first, then less over the years. But when I started taking opiates, it killed my sex drive. I could still get it up and do it, but I didn't have much desire. I'd have to put reminders on my phone and sometimes it was almost like a chore. This was a big problem in our relationship. And it was all my fault. It took a year or two to get through that phase. Desire and sensitivity came back immediately and full force upon kicking it and getting through the withdrawals.

In the last 6 months to a year, though, she still wants sex more than I do. And it's been difficult for me to understand the root of that. Part of it is that her self esteem has been low since I've been largely supporting us, and especially after loosing her best client. And I'd notice she'd really want sex on days when something happened that made her feel bad about herself, like having to ask me for money for her car payment. The transparent obvious link to self esteem was a turn off to me. Also, she has never been good about expressing her desire. I'm going to sound like a woman here, but it would be nice if she had a little more class, less obviousness, when she wanted it. Such as maybe rub my shoulders, start kissing me, then go for the pants. Don't just say "Hey, wanna have some sex?" or "Load up."

And part of it has been that I've been distancing myself from her, which just makes her want it more. I'm ready to settle down, get married, have children; in fact, I feel like time's getting a little short. And she won't even stop drinking, so it seems the relationship was going nowhere. I'd pull back a little, she'd get unhappy, and her reaction would be to get b*tchy and naggy, and constantly second guessing my choices and decisions, always having to argue with something I said, I guess in some attempt to prove she's smart, which pushed us further apart.

And it seems once every few months she'd do something to rip the bandaid off of the dishonesty wound and cause me to lose trust. Like most recently when I was wrapping up at work and we were going to watch a movie at our friend's house. So like I do at the same time every night, I call her, but no answer. So I go home, she's not there. Call again, still no answer. Eat something call again an hour later, no answer. Go ahead and go to friend's to watch the movie, call again, and now it goes straight to voicemail like her phone's off. Our friends don't know where she is, I called a couple other friends, nobody's heard from her.

I'm already mad because it's not cool to disappear without communication, especially when we had plans. Our friends are worried (accident?); I tell them I'm not, this is typical. She's probably doing something or with someone that she doesn't want me to know about. They can't believe it. Finally she calls back halfway through the movie but I let it go to voicemail, finish the evening with friends, and go home. Turns out I called it; she ran into an old friend of hers with whom she'd had sex a handful of times, he invited her to drinks at a neighborhood restaurant, and she went.

I asked her why she ignored my calls, she said her phone died. I said BS it didn't die until after at least 3 calls of mine. Oh, she couldn't hear it in her purse. Ok, why the F didn't you call me? Oh, it slipped her mind. I call BS and push harder and finally she admits that she knew I would not approve, and she didn't want to be _embarrassed _by my reaction on the phone and forbidding her from doing it. Then she quickly tried to go back to clinging to "I forgot, I couldn't hear my phone, and it died." BULL SH*T, you SELFISHLY chose some stupid thing you wanted over respect for me and OUR RELATIONSHIP! And you're F'in LYING! The right thing to do would be to suck it up and call me or answer the phone, go ahead and tell me she wanted to go to drinks with him, let me react however I wanted to react, then go on about life. Even if she'd said "I want to have drinks with him and I'm going to even if you say no", it would've been infinitely better than the dishonesty approach.

Anyways, that and one or two other dishonesty situations kinda marked the beginning of the end. And after each one, I'd feel like I'd been lied to, yet she still claimed she'd done nothing wrong and certainly not been dishonest, so I got no kind of closure and it pushed me farther away, to where I didn't want to have sex with her, because she didn't deserve it. She dissed me, still claims she did nothing wrong, so I'm still not happy with her but am expected to just sweep it under the rug until it goes away? 

Sorry for the novel in response to your question about sex... Maybe I could've summed it up much shorter, but it does me good to write this all down.

How do I feel about sex with her now? The same as I have the last several months, I guess. Yes, she probably will try to get me in bed. If she want's to, I might have one last goodbye lay once everything's settled.


LongWalk said:


> ...
> Her mother is going to be so p!ssed at her. Is the MIL nice?
> 
> How often did you think of TAM during the period of reconciliation?


Her mother is very nice; sometimes too nice and lets people walk all over her.

I'd swing by and read a handful of threads probably once every 2-3 months.


----------



## tulsy

low_n_ohio said:


> ....one thing I said is really bothering me; I called her a piece of sh*t. She immediately said "You're right, I am a piece of sh*t." This is really tearing me up inside; as wrong as she was for what she did, I really wish I hadn't called her that. I haven't hardly talked to her since, and haven't addressed that, but I want to apologize for that. ....


Don't apologize...she really is a piece of chit (not literally of course). She even agrees with you. She was a piece of chit to you...a serial piece of chit.


----------



## LongWalk

I won't say she's a piece of shxt. She is an alcoholic. If she were sober, she might be a different person. People who quit boozing are not always good company. You don't know what you'll get. A12 is nice lady in DC who got sober but her husband left her anyways. She seems very nice.

For her to call herself a piece of shxt is also form of cowardice. She is just proclaiming that she gave up on herself and is not going to try. Leaning hard on her now is actually an act of kindness because she needs the shock.

One thing you can do immediately his tell her that she has to go to AA now as long as she lives with you.

You are not married with good reason. Do not fail to exploit this leverage. Make her clean up her act even if is only for the transition period. Her alcohol abuse is trigger for you.

Is the OM a boozer?

It's not uncommon for addicts to share their addictions. The sexting was also an addiction.

If she quit drinking, her lets bang line mine give way to more ladylike seductions.

You were drawn to each other because of your dysfunction. You have licked narcotics. That deserves respect. She may feel that she has not matched you. So, she affaired down.


----------



## JCD

Not much to say about this. She had her demons, alcohol being one of them.

Having you hold her at arms length and having minimal desire for her probably didn't help her esteem issues...but that doesn't justify her actions, particularly after you found out about the first time.

This isn't rationalizing her actions: it is to explain her actions from her POV. Yes, even cheaters are allowed to have a POV.

And she seems ready and willing to hop into emotional affairs quite easily and with candid shots.

If you want to move things along, grab a few friends, get a storage unit on your own dime and add two weeks after mom heals up as her 'deadline'.

She needs to start looking now though. Her mom will want input to where they move.

I would expect her mom, who already proved her 'anti cheating' bone fides to approach you in a few days to 'fix things up' because even if she doesn't like you (and she seems to), you being in her daughter's life is probably better than you being out of her life. She does not have your best interests at heart, however, though she probably gives you some consideration.

So far, you seem to be an honorable and level headed guy. You were able to forgive some. You conquered your demons and tried to help her conquer some of hers. You put your pseudo MIL in your own house and you SEEM to be supportive of the GF.

If you have trust issues...well...she put them there.

So you can walk away from this with your head held reasonably high.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I'm going to be honest, you don't sound that mad to me and I don't think she's going anywhere. I guess you can put me in the 'believe it when I see it' camp.


----------



## Ripper

Keep in mind that she was able to hide this from a more "vigilant" you for two years. What else could you have missed?

A trip to the doc might be in order.


----------



## LongWalk

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm going to be honest, you don't sound that mad to me and I don't think she's going anywhere. I guess you can put me in the 'believe it when I see it' camp.


You may be right.

Let's hear what he has to say.


----------



## AliceA

I have to agree that it doesn't seem like you are going to follow through. I only see reasons for you not to break it off now coming up. I can understand that it may be difficult to separate finances etc, but it matters little if you split bills this way or that way; you will just have to pay for all your own expenses when she moves out, and she hers. Remove her as a beneficiary to anything, stop paying her insurances, split your finances completely. Pay for your own food, make your own meals. Treat her and her Mum like tenants until they move out. Give them a deadline. Find a place, goodbye. You have to do this fast and do it clean, don't drag it out. Her and her Mum can sort out their own finances and their own residence. I realise her Mum is recovering from an op but I'm pretty sure that's not going to stop her from living somewhere else...


----------



## syhoybenden

low_n_ohio said:


> Thanks for the responses. I went back and edited the first post to put a line at the beginning that this is an old thread and to be sure and read the update on pg 2. I am DONE with her.
> 
> I already told her it's over. I was actually pretty upset when I confronted her and said a lot of things. I still stand by most of them, like telling her how selfish she is, but one thing I said is really bothering me; I called her a piece of sh*t. She immediately said "You're right, I am a piece of sh*t." This is really tearing me up inside; as wrong as she was for what she did, I really wish I hadn't called her that. I haven't hardly talked to her since, and haven't addressed that, but I want to apologize for that. At the same time, I don't want her to think I'm forgiving her...
> 
> It's going to be a drawn out process to end it completely. I bought the house we're living in completely by myself, with no help from her. She started her own business a year or two ago, and since then I've been mostly supporting us, especially the last several months after she lost her best client. She pays the water/electric/gas, and her car note, and probably 1/2-2/3 of the food, but I pay for everything else. Mortgage/taxes/insurance, auto insurance for both of us, internet, tv, her phone, my phone, my health insurance, life insurance with her as beneficiary (and my father), everything when we go out or go on vacation. I've also paid her car note the last 2 months and paid ~3 months worth of utilities recently when she let them get way behind. I also gave her $1600 to pay back a friend she'd borrowed money from, who was requesting repayment.
> 
> Also as I mentioned her mom is temporarily staying with us after a hip surgery so we can care for her as she heals. The house is full of her stuff; her father passed a couple years ago and left 3 huge storage rooms full of stuff. It was a monumental effort to get them cleaned out, and she now has a ton of stuff. She can't afford to just rent some place and move out.
> 
> As angry as I am with her, I do still love her and don't want to be excessively harsh. Plus, while I'm committed to ensuring this stays ended, I know this is going to be a hard battle for me. I'll probably need to read threads here every day for awhile.
> 
> Any suggestions on logistics of the split? I know she's going to want to try some kind of roommate thing at least for awhile, but I really don't think that would work or be healthy.


Well, storage units for roomfuls of 'stuff' are cheap enough. And surely her and her mother can go halfsies on a bachelor apartment.
Why should this be any skin off your nose?


----------



## Hartbrok

breeze said:


> The guy is nothing to you. If it wasn't him, it'd be another dude, there's so many out there who wouldn't say 'no' to a woman chatting them up and sending them naked pics. It's like someone hitting you with a stick and you hating the stick. The person hitting you is the problem.


Exactly. As good as it can feel to direct anger at guys who respond to an attention seeking woman, the blame rests with her.


----------



## swedish

low_n_ohio said:


> I've already written a new thread and posted it, but it said a moderator would have to approve before it would appear. I put it in the CWI section. This was Tuesday night and it still hasn't shown up. Anyone know who the moderator is so I can PM him/her? I wanna tell my story and get some advice/answers! If you're a mod reading this, please look for a pending thread from me in Coping with Infidelity.


Your thread in CWI should be active now - not sue what caused it to need approval. Let me know if you have further issues with it!


----------



## DoF

low_n_ohio said:


> I SO want to send a snarky comment to the guy, but keep wondering if it'd be much better to just say nothing. "What Would Lawyer Do"
> 
> Something like: _"For better photography results you might want to try the macro setting..."_


Guy is not your issue, your girl is


----------



## DoF

low_n_ohio said:


> Thanks for the responses. I went back and edited the first post to put a line at the beginning that this is an old thread and to be sure and read the update on pg 2. I am DONE with her.
> 
> I already told her it's over. I was actually pretty upset when I confronted her and said a lot of things. I still stand by most of them, like telling her how selfish she is, but one thing I said is really bothering me; I called her a piece of sh*t. She immediately said "You're right, I am a piece of sh*t." This is really tearing me up inside; as wrong as she was for what she did, I really wish I hadn't called her that. I haven't hardly talked to her since, and haven't addressed that, but I want to apologize for that. At the same time, I don't want her to think I'm forgiving her...
> 
> It's going to be a drawn out process to end it completely. I bought the house we're living in completely by myself, with no help from her. She started her own business a year or two ago, and since then I've been mostly supporting us, especially the last several months after she lost her best client. She pays the water/electric/gas, and her car note, and probably 1/2-2/3 of the food, but I pay for everything else. Mortgage/taxes/insurance, auto insurance for both of us, internet, tv, her phone, my phone, my health insurance, life insurance with her as beneficiary (and my father), everything when we go out or go on vacation. I've also paid her car note the last 2 months and paid ~3 months worth of utilities recently when she let them get way behind. I also gave her $1600 to pay back a friend she'd borrowed money from, who was requesting repayment.
> 
> Also as I mentioned her mom is temporarily staying with us after a hip surgery so we can care for her as she heals. The house is full of her stuff; her father passed a couple years ago and left 3 huge storage rooms full of stuff. It was a monumental effort to get them cleaned out, and she now has a ton of stuff. She can't afford to just rent some place and move out.
> 
> As angry as I am with her, I do still love her and don't want to be excessively harsh. Plus, while I'm committed to ensuring this stays ended, I know this is going to be a hard battle for me. I'll probably need to read threads here every day for awhile.
> 
> Any suggestions on logistics of the split? I know she's going to want to try some kind of roommate thing at least for awhile, but I really don't think that would work or be healthy.


Yes, you tell them to leave RIGHT AWAY. 

Sooner you completely break contact with her, the faster you can start healing (it will take time for you, and BY ALL MEANS take your time). DO NOT DATE before your love for this girl is completely gone (this can take 6month-year)

In time you WILL feel better so don't worry too much. And whatever you do, DO NOT make/receive ANY contact from this woman EVER again.

Say you are 2 months into healing > email or call from her CAN = reset all the time you spent getting over her.

Best advice I can give you.

PS. I think you are NUTS for letting this girl move in....her mother AND you paid for almost everything? You were being used my friend.....and then she cheated on you....

This woman is completely F up. Sorry. I wouldn't apologize for "piece of ****" comment.....it's on point.


----------



## 86857

They need to move ASAP to wherever her mother would normally be living, i.e. in her own house.

If her mother doesn't have a house - didn't you say WS has a divorced sister??? SHE can look after her mother & her sister!

As for apologising? You don't want to hurt her? Just picture her looking at the photo of OM's 'you-know-what', probably while you were sitting in your lounge room together. Now go and apologise. 

You wasted another 2 years. Don't waste any more than another 2 weeks. 

Ask someone out on a date and invite her in for coffee after. See what I mean? 

Sounds like you are using excuses to delay the break up. It's like breaking a habit. You well know how hard that is but you did it. Now go and break this habit that cost you more than 2 years of your life, snooping, listening to lies, wondering, all the horrible stuff that happens when you are with a cheater. Doesn't matter a damn if she slept with them or not. You have decided she will not be the mother of your children. 

Come out into the sunshine OP. It's time.


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## lordmayhem

low_n_ohio said:


> P.S. She'll probably come here and read this thread. She saw me writing and asked about it so I told her. I doubt she'll register an account to respond, though.


So you're back again... and everything's worse. Shouldn't run away the first time.

You showed her this website? Looks like *she just went underground*. Instead of text messages, she started using a texting app that doesn't show up on the bill. 

Make no mistake, this has gone PA, no one hangs around for 3 years sexting without getting some. Even though he lives a few states away, that doesn't mean a thing. He could have flown into town and she could have pretended to go in to work, but spend the day with him.

Like I said in my post from 3 years ago, you've been given a free preview of what's to come. You are just a provider for her. You own the house, you don't have children, AND you're not married to her.

You're so much more fortunate than the typical BS. Its time for you to leave. Oh, and she's not that special. Don't run away this time.


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## Thorburn

1. Get tested for STD's.
2. Talk to an attorney. Find someone that is trained in tenant law. Perhaps a legal eviction might be in order.
3. I like the advice of giving them a month notice to move out.
4. Ask your G.F. to start packing up her stuff.
5. Start the 180 hard. There really is not much for the two of you to talk about so I would limit your conversations with her.
6. Start dating.


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## low_n_ohio

Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere. And she is. I'm so different from when I started this thread 2.5 yrs ago, reading my old posts is actually embarrassing.

I'm not worried about finances; in fact, I expect my monthly expenditures to decrease after she's gone. I'm dead set on finally ending this. I made that decision before coming here and updating this thread. I know it's going to be really difficult for me and really sad. That's why I'm here, to keep me thinking logically about this, and because it helps to talk about what's causing anguish. But by all means, don't believe it til you see it. You will see it, though.

She's out of town working until Sunday, so we really haven't talked since the confrontation. Sunday evening is going to suck. I'm going to stand firm, there will be much crying, and it'll make me sad. Because as much as I hate her guts, I still have love for her.


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## Thorburn

low_n_ohio said:


> Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere. And she is. I'm so different from when I started this thread 2.5 yrs ago, reading my old posts is actually embarrassing.
> 
> I'm not worried about finances; in fact, I expect my monthly expenditures to decrease after she's gone. I'm dead set on finally ending this. I made that decision before coming here and updating this thread. I know it's going to be really difficult for me and really sad. That's why I'm here, to keep me thinking logically about this, and because it helps to talk about what's causing anguish. But by all means, don't believe it til you see it. You will see it, though.
> 
> She's out of town working until Sunday, so we really haven't talked since the confrontation. Sunday evening is going to suck. I'm going to stand firm, there will be much crying, and it'll make me sad. Because as much as I hate her guts, I still have love for her.


I would recommend this my friend. Don't confront. Do the 180 hard. As much as you might want to engage, work on detaching. Just let her go. 

Don't break down in front of her. Be strong.

THe love for her thing is understandable and this is very difficult, but you have got to detach. 

Stay away from the booze and pills. Don't muddy up your mind.

Take today and tomorrow and move her stuff into one room. Secure all your valuables, weapons, etc. You have no idea what this woman is capable of doing. She is going to be out on her rear with a mother who is rehabbing and alcoholics will steal, etc. 

Get a VAR and have it on you at all times. Ohio is a "one party" state. This means you can record a conversation as long as you are present "WITHOUT" the other person knowing about it.

I am sorry you are going through this. Fortunately, no kids and no marriage.


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## tulsy

Thorburn said:


> I would recommend this my friend. Don't confront. Do the 180 hard. As much as you might want to engage, work on detaching. Just let her go.
> 
> Don't break down in front of her. Be strong.
> 
> THe love for her thing is understandable and this is very difficult, but you have got to detach.
> 
> Stay away from the booze and pills. Don't muddy up your mind.
> 
> Take today and tomorrow and move her stuff into one room. Secure all your valuables, weapons, etc. You have no idea what this woman is capable of doing. She is going to be out on her rear with a mother who is rehabbing and alcoholics will steal, etc.
> 
> Get a VAR and have it on you at all times. Ohio is a "one party" state. This means you can record a conversation as long as you are present "WITHOUT" the other person knowing about it.
> 
> I am sorry you are going through this. Fortunately, no kids and no marriage.


Thorburn, this is fantastic advice. :iagree:


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## lordmayhem

low_n_ohio said:


> She's out of town working until Sunday, so we really haven't talked since the confrontation. Sunday evening is going to suck. I'm going to stand firm, there will be much crying, and it'll make me sad. Because as much as I hate her guts, I still have love for her.


Coincidence? Or actually out of town hooking up with OM? From your other post, it seems like she's a serial cheater. 

Yes, expect the crocodile tears to flow. Apparently OM isnt as stable as you or is married, otherwise, she would have run off with him already. Talk about a cake eater.


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## See_Listen_Love

low_n_ohio said:


> Despite everything, I highly doubt she’s ever touched him physically. She does this crap for attention to augment her crippled self-esteem, not that it makes it ok or anything. Anyways, he’s uglier than me, fatter than me, balder than me, his wang is maybe 60% the size of mine (ample pics for comparison), *and I can say with a certainty of 9,999.7/10,000 that he’s stupider than me.*


Oh Brother,

several of your comments in the following posts are displaying you are soooo 100% wrong on the stupid issue.

You learned still nothing, after the first thread, after the lurking on TAM, after wanting to apologize to her about calling her a name... after all those other 'brilliant' remarks of you....

:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:


I would say in this case: Leave her, because I would not want any woman to be stuck with your intelligence.


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## DavidWYoung

Low, Really! Look, you can do better than this. I do not know how you were brought up but you can do better. You do not have to put up with this shep!


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## low_n_ohio

She's just working. I have a couple of friends who work with her on these catering jobs for extra cash; one is my younger brother. He's with her the whole time, day/night, and they work like slaves, with no time for going out. He confirms. Not that it matters to me anymore.

Regarding the stupid remarks, I was freshly hurt and emotional. Some of the things I said were likely me trying to make sense of things and feel better. They probably came off as juvenile.

Today has been better, busy with work all day and with friends through the evening. Some of the anger is subsiding and I'm thinking more like my typically logical self. I can see there's a good chance for reconciliation, and I should beg her for that.

Ha ha, just kidding! About the last part. The anger subsiding and more logical thought is here. I know this is going to rub some of the more hurt people here the wrong way... Being an ex-addict/alcoholic, myself, (recovering I suppose) I can kind of identity with her; the selfish desire to feed emotions at all cost, struggling for scraps of self esteem in the gutter (metaphorically), and I can even empathize with the hurt I was causing her.
Really, this is the breaking point of something that has been going on longer. I have been withdrawing from her and not giving her what she needs, and I would probably have felt bad, too, if the tables had been turned.

I, however, would NOT have turned to lies, deceit and cheating. (I don't know how I would've responded to my partner treating me the way I did her; perhaps a relapse with the drugs or booze? Who knows, but definitely not cheating.) I now see her for who she really is, without deluding myself, and there's no reason I'd want her in my life. I deserve to be with an honest person.

Regarding me feeling bad about calling her a piece of sh*t, I've been taught that it's poor form to criticize someone by calling them a name, and better to criticize their actions. Believe it or not, as hard as it is, it is possible for people to change. A person can't really change their self per se, but they can change their actions. So calling someone a name really just hurts them emotionally with no gain other than maybe a little temporary satisfaction for you. Criticizing their actions will initially give them the same effect, but leaves them an avenue to redeem themself by changing the offending actions, and thereby become a better person. So I do feel bad when I tear down someone just to make myself feel better, even when they deserve it.

Anyways, I'm now trying to take the emotion out of it and treat this like business. The two of us just don't work. And we're not going to in the foreseeable future. So. It's. Over. The next order of business is to move on to the next stage of my life, which means getting her out of here with the least amount of stress, drama, and cost should it come to that. I'm still young and dumb, but one thing I've learned in business is not to do or say ANYTHING that doesn't benefit you more than the damage that could be done by possible repercussions. Emotional satisfaction doesn't count for much benefit.

So if my goal is to get her out of here, being a d!ck about it is likely not going to be the best way. More flys with honey blah blah blah, you get the idea (though it's a stupid analogy since rotting meat would catch the most flys.) For instance, instead of just saying get the hell out by xyz, maybe help her find a place. I haven't thought this through yet, but my dad lives on the other side of town with an empty bedroom. He's also currently housing many of the more valuable things from her dad's estate, in his living room, and has been asking her to figure something out for them. Maybe she could room with him for a bit and sort her possessions issue at the same time? Just an idea, maybe a bad one. And no it's not to keep her close; I very rarely go over there.

Thank you for the reminder for the VAR (voice activated recorder)! I'm getting one tomorrow. I'll also be seeing a lawyer Monday morning. Can't be too safe. I tried to see one today, but the referral service closed early.

I may not post every day, but I'll try for at least once a day. I'll keep you all updated on the story. I'll probably do some bouncing from angry to sad, to lonely, to relieved, back to calm and logical, and my posts will probably reflect that.


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## terrence4159

if i was you and you have the om's# text him tell him you will rent him a uhaul and tell him to come get her you are more than happy to do this for them.


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## Nucking Futs

low_n_ohio said:


> For instance, instead of just saying get the hell out by xyz, maybe help her find a place. I haven't thought this through yet, but my dad lives on the other side of town with an empty bedroom. He's also currently housing many of the more valuable things from her dad's estate, in his living room, and has been asking her to figure something out for them. Maybe she could room with him for a bit and sort her possessions issue at the same time? Just an idea, maybe a bad one. And no it's not to keep her close; I very rarely go over there.


I have a whole stream of invective to describe how bad this idea is but I'm not going to use it. Instead I'm going to point out that you're thinking of solving your problem by turning it into your fathers problem. Do you hate your father?


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## low_n_ohio

Is there a thread here, or a website somewhere that lists and explains all of the mental techniques liars/cheaters use when confronted? I've heard terms like blameshifting, gaslighting, straw man argument, etc., and kind of know what those are, but I know there are more mental language/argument techniques than just those.

In the past when confronting her on something, I could frequently tell when she was talking her way up, down, out, or around the issue. But I didn't know what the techniques were called, or how to define them. I would've liked to be able to stop her, point out exactly what she was doing, and say try again.

It hardly matters anymore with her as it's over, and like I said last night the next matter of business is getting her out. But I would like to say "Look, now that we're through, why don't you just cut the crap and come clean; you owe me at least that much." and with a VAR in my pocket, it could be valuable evidence if she actually would come clean.

I know, it's a long shot! But it would be nice to at least hand her a printout explaining all of the argument methods she's used, and tell her she and I both know I'm not crazy.


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## PBear

You're worried way too much about her response and what she might do. You need a plan that involves only what you want and focus on the result you want to see. Anything she says or tries is just "blah blah blah..."

C


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## low_n_ohio

PBear said:


> You're worried way too much about her response and what she might do. You need a plan that involves only what you want and focus on the result you want to see. Anything she says or tries is just "blah blah blah..."
> 
> C


Yeah, I'm probably over-thinking it, but I'm mainly thinking about the possibility of a common law marriage claim. I'm in Texas, not Ohio. See the other thread, post #44 by me, for my username explanation.

I think it's pretty unlikely she could make that case and any court would side with her, but just trying to cover all bases... I figured that conversation could possibly lead into why I never proposed and we never got married, generating evidence for later use in the unlikely event it was needed. Maybe I'm paranoid?


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## PBear

low_n_ohio said:


> Yeah, I'm probably over-thinking it, but I'm mainly thinking about the possibility of a common law marriage claim. I'm in Texas, not Ohio. See the other thread, post #44 by me, for my username explanation.
> 
> I think it's pretty unlikely she could make that case and any court would side with her, but just trying to cover all bases... I figured that conversation could possibly lead into why I never proposed and we never got married, generating evidence for later use in the unlikely event it was needed. Maybe I'm paranoid?


If you're concerned, don't confront until you talk to a lawyer. Your evidence may or not be enough, or may not even be admissible. Which is why you should talk to a lawyer FIRST! She'll still be a cheater on Monday afternoon...

C


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## PBear

http://texaslawhelp.org/files/685E9...5BA6E78F/407091LHT 32_1 Comm Law Marriage.pdf

Don't know if this will help...

C


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## low_n_ohio

PBear said:


> If you're concerned, don't confront until you talk to a lawyer. Your evidence may or not be enough, or may not even be admissible. Which is why you should talk to a lawyer FIRST! She'll still be a cheater on Monday afternoon...
> 
> C


Definitely! I wasn't planning on discussing anything with her tomorrow, only AFTER meeting with an attorney on Monday morning, and only if he thinks it's a good idea. I just wanted to be prepared.

And also I'd like to know more about those infuriating conversation tactics liars use, for my own knowledge, and for the future.


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## turnera

http://texaslawhelp.org/files/685E9...5BA6E78F/407091LHT 32_1 Comm Law Marriage.pdf


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## AliceA

I think passing the problem to your father is NOT a good way to go. You may think it's a great idea, but I really don't think you've thought things through, at all.

1) What if she won't leave?
2) What if she takes the rest of her stuff there, then leaves it there and refuses to get rid of it?
3) What if she doesn't pay her way and your father is burdened financially?
4) What if she ends up blaming and HATING you for everything that comes to pass between you and spews it at your father?
5) What if your father can't stand having her live there and she can't afford to move out?

I'm shocked anyone would even contemplate moving their EX into their PARENT'S house! WTH!


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## Satya

*Re: Re: checked her phone, now I feel gutted*



low_n_ohio said:


> It hardly matters anymore with her as it's over, and like I said last night the next matter of business is getting her out. But I would like to say "Look, now that we're through, why don't you just cut the crap and come clean; you owe me at least that much." and with a VAR in my pocket, it could be valuable evidence if she actually would come clean.


You are putting too much stock in her ability to be reasoned with and empathize with your needs. Her actions dictate quite the contrary. Read what you wrote, really read it, and see how easy it would be for her to simply say "no" or twist and turn the argument around to be about you. Pleading won't work unless she is a truly remorseful person who has already demonstrated in every way she is sorry. 

"Cut the crap. Get out." Follow through. 

Not much wiggle room in comparison!


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## low_n_ohio

breeze said:


> I think passing the problem to your father is NOT a good way to go. You may think it's a great idea, but I really don't think you've thought things through, at all.
> ...


Yeah, it's a stupid idea, I never said it was great. It was just a random idea I threw out, and I said I hadn't thought it through and it may be a bad one.

The reasoning in my mind when it popped into my head was that she'd be over there with all of the things she's trying to sell, and could do so more easily, and hopefully make enough money to move on, leaving my dad's living room back to him. But you're right, it would be wrong to involve my dad.

I'm so tired of thinking about this whole situation. I am over-thinking it. "Cut the crap. Get out." sounds about right. Still gonna talk to a lawyer first, because I'm a paranoid, CYA kinda guy.


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## TRy

low_n_ohio said:


> I'm mainly thinking about the possibility of a common law marriage claim. I'm in Texas, not Ohio.


 Although infidelity does not matter very much in most states, it is a factor in Texas when it comes to the division of property and determining alimony. It could also be a factor that would argue against any common law claim that she may file. 

I am not an attorney, but one thing that you should check with your attorney on is that I read that "Under section 2.401 of the Texas Family Code, an informal marriage can be established either by registering with the county without having a ceremony, or by meeting 3 requirements showing evidence of an agreement to be married; living together in Texas; and representation to others that the parties are wedded." Unless you have already agreed that you are married, and have been telling everyone that you are married (and not that you are looking to get married), it would seem to appear that you would be in the clear. Again, check with your attorney on this.


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## low_n_ohio

Fuuuuu... This sucks. I forgot what this feels like. And I'm the one ending it! Seems like it should hurt less.

I'm so sad. This is so hard. And despite everything, it still breaks my heart to see her hurting, too.


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## LongWalk

She cannot be trusted. She may have feelings for you but she clearly demonstrated her inability to be monogamous.


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## DoktorFun

You cant fix her, my friend.

Stay strong. It's only one way, end it.


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## JCD

Let me amend my advice. Move the stuff out of your father's place while you are getting it out of your place too. You have the truck. Use it up!


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## low_n_ohio

She's out as of yesterday. The part time job is asking her to work a lot more, pretty much full time, so looks like the stars are aligning to help my situation! This job is in a town ~1hr away, and her friend's mother has a house there that she had just started looking for a renter to rent.

It'll probably take a while to get all of her stuff out, though.

And wow, I wasted a LOT more time and mental energy than I should've over the past week or so. I kept trying to just be mentally decoupled from her, avoid and ignore, but somehow I kept letting her drag me into these long drawn-out, purposeless discussions. She's STILL saying she wants to salvage our relationship, and asking if I'll come out there to visit her. I told her she just wants the comfort of familiarity and not to be lonely while she's actively searching for the next sucker. I told her to deal with it and leave me out of it. I don't think a word I've ever said has registered with her, though. Except of course anything that ever hurt her feelings...

She's a liar and a cheater. She thinks she knows what love is, but I think she's simply insane. I don't lie to or cheat on someone I love; it just doesn't make sense to me how someone could believe that would be ok.


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## low_n_ohio

Oh yeah, and the first day she was back in town and talking about how she wanted me and nobody else in her life, and was going to fight as hard as it took to make things work out, I had some evidence that she was full of sh*t and still talking to the other guy. So I told her to be completely honest and asked her some questions, and of course she lied. Just helped firm up my resolve.

But I asked her if she'd call the other guy in front of me and tell him in no uncertain terms that they were to never talk again, and she said she would, so I said do it. She did, and I could hear the pain in both of their voices, but it was done in no uncertain terms. Asking her to do this when my mind was already set was probably childish of me, but I felt they both deserved it.

BTW, I did send his wife a facebook message detailing all of my findings with a pic attached showing all of their call/text history for a single day. I offered much more evidence and photos if she wanted, but she didn't respond and instead blocked me. I don't know what's up with that, but guess I don't really care.


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## Clay2013

Everything you just said describes my xW to a T. You think you are having a rational conversation with her. You will never be able to have it. Its been seven years and my xW to this day still is a complete looser. I talked to her just last week for over a hour and nothing I said ever sunk in. 

I am truly sorry you are going through this but the sooner you get her completely out of your life the better off you will be. 

There are much better people out there. They are hard to find but once you do they are really worth it. 

Clay


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## weightlifter

Her mom is gone? Hopefully not too harsh to her mom but she should go.


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## LongWalk

low_n_ohio said:


> I know how I'm going to sound when I say this, as I, myself, have read many other people's threads and thought "Man, dump her! There's many more fish in the sea!" but she really is special. I've dated plenty of women and I'm not blindly enchanted. I've never been with anyone else I thought would make a better mother for my children, she's a really great person; everyone that meets her loves her; so many people have told me how lucky I am and said I'd better hurry up and marry her. We do both have a lot invested in each other, and I am still madly in love with her. She's very attractive, as well!
> 
> This is a really tough situation and I appreciate everyone's input.


How do you feel about this post now?

Do you see the good in her still?


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## lordmayhem

low_n_ohio said:


> BTW, I did send his wife a facebook message detailing all of my findings with a pic attached showing all of their call/text history for a single day. I offered much more evidence and photos if she wanted, but she didn't respond and instead blocked me. I don't know what's up with that, but guess I don't really care.


The two likely reasons are:


OM has access to her facebook account and intercepted your PM and then blocked you.
The OMW is in denial, which is so very, very common among BSs. Being in disbelief like she might be, she may not be willing to listen.....right now. It happens. In other cases, the OMW/OWH are thankful to get confirmation about their own suspicions.


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## jb02157

I'm really sorry this has happened to you. Some of us run into the wrong people and some of us aren't able to stop seeing them and marry them even though they show over and over that they are unable to be a good partner for you. This is part of my problem. When I started seeing my wife I saw many danger signs and knew that many of the things I wanted in a wife, she didn't have. But, stupid me, I kept on seeing her. I knew that she wasn't going to be good at keeping a clean house and her sex drive was very low to non-existent. I'm glad that you had the resolve to stop seeing her. It's clear that she will have problems keeping a monogamous relationship and you're better off without her.


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## low_n_ohio

She moved the bulk of her stuff out this weekend. She left a couple things like the couches until I can get my own, and I agreed to move them when done with them. She stayed here a couple nights while packing, and other than one "discussion", really just a rehash of all the same things we've already said a million times, we were both pretty much calm, respectful and nice to each other.



weightlifter said:


> Her mom is gone? Hopefully not too harsh to her mom but she should go.


Mom was doing better and her other daughter (the sister) got back into town and was able to care for her.



LongWalk said:


> How do you feel about this post now?
> 
> Do you see the good in her still?


I'm not sure if this is a genuine question, or hinting at a told-you-so? Anyways, I already said everyone here was right and I was wrong.

How I feel about that post is that it sure sounds lame. It's hard for me to identify with the guy who wrote that. I do still find her quite attractive physically, and she is a great person in many ways, no doubt about that. But she's fatally flawed when it comes to relationship material for me. There are plenty of wonderful and beautiful women out there, and some of them are even honest, non-cheaters. I know a lot more about myself, what I need and want, and now have the confidence and willpower to not settle for anything less.

There is a lot of good in her, and even through the pain and betrayal, I can see it. I also see the the hurt I've caused her, and it makes me sad. She just wanted me to love her, and care. I can think of times over the past months when she said "I can feel that you don't love me, or even like me. You don't want me around, and it hurts." I'd say that's not true, I do love you! But the truth is that I was distant and withdrawn, and she felt it.

Of course, a large reason for that is the trust issues I've had with her. Distrust and resentment built, I wasn't happy, withdrew, and that made her sad.

One big crappy snowball, which finally got to the bottom of the hill.

So yes, I can still see the good in her. But we can't be together. The lying and cheating sealed the deal.



jb02157 said:


> I'm really sorry this has happened to you. Some of us run into the wrong people and some of us aren't able to stop seeing them and marry them even though they show over and over that they are unable to be a good partner for you. This is part of my problem. When I started seeing my wife I saw many danger signs and knew that many of the things I wanted in a wife, she didn't have. But, stupid me, I kept on seeing her. I knew that she wasn't going to be good at keeping a clean house and her sex drive was very low to non-existent. I'm glad that you had the resolve to stop seeing her. It's clear that she will have problems keeping a monogamous relationship and you're better off without her.


Thanks, I totally know how you feel. I didn't even know if I'd have the resolve, and it sure has been tested. One of the more poignant moments was when she came out of the other bedroom, and I could tell she had been crying but she was trying to hide it. With a sad smile she said "I guess like Dr. Seuss said, Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened." Still chokes me up.


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## LongWalk

Good post. You are healing but it is slow and painful when you touch the wound.

She is perhaps not a person with evil intent, but she is weak. Fixing that would be difficult.

I think it is hard to let go when you see that if you make love to her she's be very emotional and grateful. But she is still in need of a lot of IC.

Once she is gone. Things will get better.

It was good that she did the NC phone call. I would tell her that your respect for her went up when she took that step. Tell her that at that moment she was becoming more of the person she could be. That person will not be because of anything you do. It is what she does that counts.

She will have to fight this fight by herself. It's not your job.


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