# Is this really the norm?



## Left arm optimistic

I’m worried that my marriage has become broken due to what our different demands –being a stay at home mom, and a stressful job have done to my wife and I. So my question relates to whether this is the norm for those married with small kids. Apologies for the inevitably long post… 

The problem is that my stressful work and hectic home life has left me more short tempered than I used to be, and being a stay at home mom has made my wife so exhausted, she readily admits she has nothing left to give me most of the time. 

With my wife, her stresses mean that when I get home from work, she’s super snappy with me most days. The way she reacts towards me would be justified if I’d been sat around all day in a bar or at the beach, but I’ve been out working hard for the family, and then I’m instantly involved and helping when I get home. There have been long periods of time where my wife has been too “touched out” for physical contact (hugs, cuddling on the sofa at night… that sort of thing), so I’ve respected that, even though I’m quite a physical person, so missed that contact. 

She’s never been hugely into sex… happens about once a week on average. Particularly in the last few years I’ve felt it’s been a case of it happening because she feels obliged, which isn’t much of a turn on.

There’s also other stuff which I’ve tried to discuss calmly and productively but am always met with super defensiveness… For example, my wife isn’t an extravagant spender, but on an almost daily basis, she buys stuff that costs between $5 and $30 either on Amazon, or other online stores, or in craft stores, etc… it all adds up, and means that despite earning a good salary (that has increased by around 50% in the last 5 years) we never have any savings. I hardly spend anything on myself. Most days at work I don’t even eat lunch because I'd rather save the money (and can't always pack). 

In the evenings, my wife always has the TV on… I can’t stand the noise. I want to hang out with her, but crap TV does nothing for me. I find it really hard to have a conversation with her when an awful TV show is blaring in the background. I like watching a good show, but have no need to have the TV on every hour of every night. Most of the time she wants the TV on in the background while she’s on her computer or phone (which makes conversation even harder because I’m competing against the TV and her computer)… Essentially her way of relaxing is to have the TV on, mine is to have the TV off. I’ve discussed this with her, but there’s no compromise – it’s on every night. She thinks it’s petty to even discuss this sort of thing, but in my mind marriage is about compromise. 

I’ve also complained about her spending too much time on her phone and computer (texting her friends and family). Sometimes she’ll send and receive 300-500 text messages a day (most of these are received, but I still think sending over 100 a day is pretty high, and this is just text messages – emails and facebook messages/chat are on top of that…). And before anyone asks – it’s all to her friends and family – not to some random guy… She even has her phone on her and is texting away while putting our 2 year old to bed. Impact of this is that I don’t feel she’s really present for me or for the kids sometimes (the kids are obsessed with getting on devices too, which probably isn’t too surprising since they see their mum on the device all day. She gets very, very defensive when I bring this up (either her amount of time on her phone or how obsessed the kids are with it)

The effect of all of this is that I don’t quite feel the same about her anymore. I still love her but when I get home from work, I’m made to feel like I’m a member of staff turning up late for my shift. It’s like we’re two people living in the same house, parenting the same children (often individually rather than together), but not really being a couple. My wife says this is absolutely normal, the inevitable consequence of the demands of looking after two little kids all day. She says when she’s snappy at me, she’s not mad at me, she’s mad at the situation / just letting off steam because it’s been a tough day. She also texts me, normally at least once a day, sometimes several times a day to tell me all the bad stuff that’s happening. This just makes me feel bad - I never do the same to her when something crappy happens at work, because I don’t see the point. It’s not like I can do anything to help her (other than send supportive messages, which I do). I don’t tell her about the crap that’s negatively impacting me because I don’t want her to feel bad.

So, Is this really the norm? Is it the inevitable consequence of having demanding kids? I’ve just been left feeling that no matter what I do, it’s never enough. My wife says that once the kids are asleep, she’s relaxed and happy; I’m probably less relaxed and happy because my days are admittedly less intense, but are far longer (longer kids bedtime routine, and I’m the only one that gets up in the night for them). 

Some background info: Wife and I have been together for 10 years. We have 3 kids aged 2 and a half, just turned 5 and a teenage step-kid. I’m in my early 40s, wife mid 30s. Aside from antagonizing the 5 year old, the teenager doesn’t help, and is also a frustration for my wife (struggles to get homework done etc…).

Our two little ones are a real handful. There’s rarely a moment when they’re both happily playing or occupying themselves, they’re fussy eaters, and are both very demanding. They play together nicely in small patches, but the 2 year old is pretty disruptive. It’s absolutely exhausting for my wife, who is a stay at home mom. 

Even taking our 5 year old to pre-school 3 days a week is a fight, as our 2 year old will freak out about being put in the car or not being able to play in her big sister’s classroom…

I think of myself as a good husband and a good father. Until I got a new job recently, I was working 60-80 hours a week. But I never let my crazy work schedule stop me spending time with the kids or helping my wife once I’m home from work (i.e. I’d come home at regular time and just work at night once the kids were asleep) . On many nights, as soon as I’m home from work, my wife goes and takes a long bath, and I get to spend time with my kids. I’m happy my wife can get some quiet relaxing time even if it means it’s instantly hectic for me when I get home from work (and because it’s hectic for me the second I get home, it just makes me even more aware of how hectic it is for my wife most of the day).

I put our 5 year old to bed each night (wife does the 2 year old) and over the last 3 years, I’m the only one who has gotten out of bed 4-6 nights a week (sometimes 2 more more times a night) because our 5 year old has always had problems with sleeping. My wife has it hard during the day, so I’m up in the night, sometimes for an hour or two, trying to get a scared 5 year old back to sleep. I then get up for work 30-60 minutes before my wife wakes up (so she has the kids on her own in the morning, but gets to sleep in every day). Up until recently I'd also get up on both weekend days so she could sleep in. More recently, she's started letting me sleep in on Sundays. 

I almost never go out with friends or go to work events – maybe it happens once every 4 months, which is fine, as I like seeing my kids and helping my wife. We have a lovely house, and financial stability. 

I’ve supported my wife in wanting to be a stay at home mum (there was a time before our little ones when she worked full time and I did on and off consultancy work , but she wanted to be a stay at home mom, so I found full time work. I’m also 100% supportive of her if she wants to go back to work. With two salaries, we’d definitely be able to afford the childcare costs.

My wife isn’t a bad person. She’s not mean, and hasn’t deliberately set out to be this way. But I would love to get people’s thoughts on whether this is all just par for the course when small kids are involved… essentially that the man and wife’s relationship gets put on hold during these difficult years… My expectations are really just that she be civil to me, and appreciate that although my days aren't as hard as hers, I don't deserve to be treated like staff and snapped at when I get home from work. I'm not expecting a Stepford wife... Either way, she says my expectations are unrealistic. 

Thank you for reading…
Lefty.


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## wistful_thinking

Could you read HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS? On one hand yes this is parenthood, on the other hand you have to look after yourself and eachother. Your relationship cannot be on hold. It is a lot to do.


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## Imovedforthis

Sounds a lot like our marriage! normal here 

Married 13 years, our 3 kids are 12, 3 and 2. We have 2 older children who live with their other parents cross country. Our 3 kids are exhausting and quite the handful. And the same with the 12 yr old... She does more aggravating things to rile up the younger ones than help us out with them. 

I do the same with the shopping, little bits of Amazon here and there. Honestly it's just a guilty pleasure and since I don't get to leave the house or do much for ME- I order paints and crafts and do what makes me happy when I can here. So maybe just have her set a budget or keep an eye not to overspend. 

My husband lets me take long baths here and there- he encourages it a lot to try and help my sanity I guess. He knows what a day with our kids are like so I think he feels sorry for me a lot lol either way, it's appreciated. So know your wife totally appreciates it. 

She may just not be a cuddly type person. It's hard to be all cuddly when you feel nasty from cleaning and kids all day. 

Give it some time... When the kids get a couple years older the stress levels and exhaustion of having young kids will get better. Once my older kids started kindergarten full time is when it seemed to be a normal life again. But then it's hectic with school stuff but not the same as toddlers  

You sound like a good husband and dad and she a good mom and wife.., enjoy it. And remember to keep the core of the relationship (YOU & HER) top priority. Date nights, time alone is important and will keep you connected during these stressful times. We don't get date nights ever bc we moved to a new area. So we usually get the kids set up alone or in bed early and watch a movie together in the bedroom. Cheesy but we have been doing that the past week and have felt closer to each other than we have in a long time.


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## See_Listen_Love

Left arm optimistic said:


> I’m worried that my marriage has become broken due to what our different demands –being a stay at home mom, and a stressful job have done to my wife and I. So my question relates to whether this is the norm for those married with small kids. Apologies for the inevitably long post…


No, this is not the norm. It happens a lot though, and many things are common on marriages with small kids.

There are things you can do to improve your situation. The first one I would recommend is starting a new way of communicating. Number one above all. Use for instance non violent communication as a project for the both of you.

The second one would be to set up a new sex life. Yes, set up. Plan it, do it. Learn and improve. My experience is that striving for loving intimacy is the second best defence against all the problems you mention. 

You can do so much better and be so much happier:smile2:


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## Left arm optimistic

See_Listen_Love said:


> No, this is not the norm. It happens a lot though, and many things are common on marriages with small kids.
> 
> There are things you can do to improve your situation. The first one I would recommend is starting a new way of communicating. Number one above all. Use for instance non violent communication as a project for the both of you.
> 
> The second one would be to set up a new sex life. Yes, set up. Plan it, do it. Learn and improve. My experience is that striving for loving intimacy is the second best defence against all the problems you mention.
> 
> You can do so much better and be so much happier:smile2:


Thanks - do agree that we need a new way of communicating (although we never even yell at each other - snappy and moody is as bad as it gets). One of our ongoing struggles has been that we're rarely both in the right space to be able to communicate properly (my wife is exhausted and frustrated when I get home, and then I'm exhausted and frustrated by the time I'm done kids bedtime... and then we're with our teenager until close to bed time. 

This also touches on something @Imovedforthis (thank you for your insightful reply) - said that I can relate to. We're also far away from both our families. Most of our friends are parents too, so it's really hard to find a reliable babysitter... This means not enough time for the two of us. 



wistful_thinking said:


> Could you read HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS? On one hand yes this is parenthood, on the other hand you have to look after yourself and eachother. Your relationship cannot be on hold. It is a lot to do.


Hadn't heard of that book - thanks, think I'll give that a read, and hopefully my wife can too.


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## happy as a clam

No. This is not the norm. At all.

You need marriage counseling. Then decide whether or not you can continue to live this way.

Frankly, it sounds like a real grind. You two are not a couple... You're simply coworkers in a household.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Happilymarried25

Your marriage sounds pretty normal to me. She watches TV and texts often as an escape and to have interaction with adults. Your sex life is bound to decline after having children. You knew she wasn't into sex when you married her so that hasn't changed so don't complain about that now. Once a week is normal, especially with small children that don't sleep through the night.

I will say you two do need to spend more quiet time together once the children go to bed. She does need to turn off the TV (my husband always has the TV on so I can relate to you wanting quiet time) stop texting and be off the computer so you two can spend time talking, cuddling etc. I know she wants to zone out but this is the time for you two to be together. I know you need that from her. You shouldn't even be thinking about separating, you have two small children and they need both of their parents. You two don't any major problems you just need to make each other a priority.


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## Left arm optimistic

Happilymarried25 said:


> Your marriage sounds pretty normal to me. She watches TV and texts often as an escape and to have interaction with adults. Your sex life is bound to decline after having children. You knew she wasn't into sex when you married her so that hasn't changed so don't complain about that now. Once a week is normal, especially with small children that don't sleep through the night.
> 
> I will say you two do need to spend more quiet time together once the children go to bed. She does need to turn off the TV (my husband always has the TV on so I can relate to you wanting quiet time) stop texting and be off the computer so you two can spend time talking, cuddling etc. I know she wants to zone out but this is the time for you two to be together. I know you need that from her. You shouldn't even be thinking about separating, you have two small children and they need both of their parents. You two don't any major problems you just need to make each other a priority.


To be fair, I wasn't complaining re the sex - was just giving background info and pre-empting questions (and I'm the one that gets up for the kids 99% of the time at night... Even the night before the most important 6 hour job interview of my life, I was the one up for 4 hours with our then 4 year old). I have never pressured my wife into sex, nor made her feel in any way bad about how much sex we're having. I'd much rather have a close emotional and intellectual relationship with someone, and not having this is leaving a far bigger gap in my life than anything else. 

I think I prioritize my wife as much as I can - but because my wife is so exhausted, she says she has nothing left to give me (hence why she's snappy when I get home, and why among other things, she needs the TV on each night regardless of how it makes me feel.). 

Last night we actually went on a date night. It was pretty nice, but she still had her phone out all night and was regularly texting her friend (to the extent that a couple of times I said things that she just ignored because she was too busy texting). I kept my phone in my pocket all night. 2-3 times in the past I've mentioned the texting thing and how it negatively impacts our quality time, but she just gets super defensive about it.




intheory said:


> I don't know if it's normal, but it shouldn't be.
> 
> Just reading your post made me feel depressed.
> 
> When do you ever get to savor a moment; when are you not on the incessant treadmill of tasks and working and commuting?
> 
> Think of the husband and wife relationship as the foundation.
> 
> Think of the entire family as a house.
> 
> Houses don't last long without a solid foundation.
> 
> Please forgive me; but it sounds like the kids rule the roost a bit. Which, btw, seems very common. They should listen to you and your wife, go to bed when told. Pipe down when you tell them. They should not get to dictate every waking moment of you guys' life. You don't have to be a friend to your kids. Be a parent. Be unpopular in order to change the dynamic. What mom and dad says, goes.
> 
> Of course your wife has to be in agreement. Apparently, a lot of wives' primary emotional connection is with their kids. And they don't like being a strict disciplinarian. I think it's really bad for a marriage.
> 
> That's my contribution. I admire that you work so hard for your family. Being a SAHM/D is hard work. But it's a different kind of work from commuting, "clocking in", and being accountable to a boss/clients/co-workers. You also have the financial survival of the family hanging over your head; which can be very stressful. As much as SAHP's do, I think they can tend to take the working partner for granted.
> 
> If your wife went back to work; do you think she'd have more time for you? 'Cause when you both got home; she'd go into "home and kid" mode; which is necessary --- but I don't know if that would free up more time and energy to nurture the marriage.
> 
> I wish you could reach your wife; and tell her what you told us here. You state that she is a good person. So, if she is reasonable and loves you, I would think she should be open to hearing what is on your mind.
> 
> Reassure her that you know she is busy, and the kids are a handful. Avoid somehow blaming or criticizing her for the problem. Tell her that you miss being close to her, and you want time just with her. She is special to you in ways that the kids can never be; and you want more of that in your life.
> 
> And (assuming you agree with this), the house doesn't have to be "perfect". There's probably a few things that HAVE to be done daily or every other day: load of laundry, load of dishes, take out trash, clean toilet seats, run vacuum through the high traffic areas, make beds. Dusting the nik-naks, vacuuming the corners, scrubbing the bathtub etc. etc. - doesn't have to be done all that often. Have buckets/baskets that toys/clutter can be scooped up into real quick. Just clearing up clutter makes a place look twice as orderly.
> 
> No need for from-scratch meals all the time. I'm not suggesting you guys eat from fast food, or eat out of cans all the time. But what about crock-pot meals, or "6 ingredients or less" recipes?
> 
> I'm just trying to say that if you and your wife have high standards of housekeeping and meal preparation; you might need to lower them for the next couple of years.
> 
> And you shouldn't be going without a lunch:| That's terrible. How long does it take to make a PBJ and banana in a brown bag?
> 
> Good luck. Yours is a common problem seen here on TAM.


Ha @intheory - sorry for making you feel depressed! I have also had that realization though about how hard it is to savor any moments, which is sad. 


There's certainly some truth in the above re the kids ruling the roost somewhat, but this is a tricky thing to discuss. We're collectively responsible, but my wife is the one home with them most of the time (and I am the stricter of the two of us) and I don't want it to be seen as a criticism of her. We do already keep things simple with food... My wife is a bit OCD, so she has to keep the house clean to be happy, but I help as much as I can, and never expect her to do my laundry or clean up after me. 

Re the lunch - re-reading my post, I felt a bit pathetic. I'm an adult and should take more responsibility to make sure I eat... sometimes I'm just too exhausted in the evening to make my lunch for the next day and too rushed in the morning... My colleagues at work regularly spend $15-$20 on lunch + coffee etc, and this is what I'm trying to avoid. I’m just frustrated that we don’t save money despite my working so hard and having a good salary… 

And I appreciate your words re the working partner sometimes being taken for granted. I have on numerous times admitted to my wife that her job is far, far harder than mine, but this doesn’t mean that if hers is harder than mine, it means mine isn’t hard at all. 




happy as a clam said:


> No. This is not the norm. At all.
> 
> You need marriage counseling. Then decide whether or not you can continue to live this way.
> 
> Frankly, it sounds like a real grind. You two are not a couple... You're simply coworkers in a household.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree we need counselling. Wife isn't completely against it, but is saying she's surprised at how I feel and that this has come out of nowhere.


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## citygirl4344

To me this seems like the rut a lot of marriages fall into when you have small kids...including mine.
I am not a stay at home parent. Both my H and I work and then come home to a five year old and a Three year old. By the time we have dinner, get kids to bed, do chores etc , All I want to do is just sit and watch tv. This is my way of relaxing and destressing. The tv doesn't call out mommy every five min. You can get away. Problem with that is that you aren't communicating at all , even about taking out the garbage. 
I'm glad to hear that you went out on a date night...you need time as a couple. My H and I went out On a date a month ago and I challenged him to talk about topics other than our children. It was hard. Communication is key. 
The texting at dinner is ruse as far As I'm concerned. Have a rule that phones are fine but put them away for dinner at least. 

Good luck...you aren't alone. I am told it gets easier when kids are a bit older and we get more sleep. 


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## Left arm optimistic

So, my wife is very upset because I was honest. I told her that I still love her, but my feelings for her have changed, because of our situation and how she's dealt with the stresses of being a stay at home mom. 

I clarified and followed up by saying that where we are is both of our responsibilities, and I only said this to her because I want us to make things better, starting by better communication. 

She wants me to "take what I said back" which is strange to me, as it would just be lying if i did, and I didn't do it to hurt her (she said it was mean and hateful for me to say that). She said that she has too much on her plate with the kids and the house to think about marriage counselling, which is not quite the response I expected or wished for.. was hoping it would make her realize we both have to re-prioritize and do what we need to do to fix our marriage. 





citygirl4344 said:


> To me this seems like the rut a lot of marriages fall into when you have small kids...including mine.
> I am not a stay at home parent. Both my H and I work and then come home to a five year old and a Three year old. By the time we have dinner, get kids to bed, do chores etc , All I want to do is just sit and watch tv. This is my way of relaxing and destressing. The tv doesn't call out mommy every five min. You can get away. Problem with that is that you aren't communicating at all , even about taking out the garbage.
> I'm glad to hear that you went out on a date night...you need time as a couple. My H and I went out On a date a month ago and I challenged him to talk about topics other than our children. It was hard. Communication is key.
> The texting at dinner is ruse as far As I'm concerned. Have a rule that phones are fine but put them away for dinner at least.
> 
> Good luck...you aren't alone. I am told it gets easier when kids are a bit older and we get more sleep.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks. I do kind of feel we shouldn't have to set rules about not texting when we're out on our first date night in months (especially since I've mentioned the phone thing a few times recently), but I guess sometimes these things need saying


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## citygirl4344

It's a hard conversation to have when the other party thinks it's a completely normal situation. You had mentioned that she said it was normal for a marriage to be like this. Just because it seems to be the norm doesn't mean it's right. 
I know my H and I are constantly working on communication. Some days are better than others 
You've made the right step by telling her you see there a problem..but that problem is fixable. I hope after she has time to digest she sees that too. 


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## Left arm optimistic

What she's basically saying to me is that her life as a stay at home mom is so hard, that I don't have the right to voice dissatisfaction or concern about anything. I'm smart enough to know that this isn't the foundations upon which a good marriage is built. I'm still helpful (and she's always telling me about husbands of friends who don't help with the kids, or go out all the time or spend all their money etc...), but as a consequence of me getting so little sleep, working so many hours and coming home to a hostile environment most days, I'm finding it hard to be as sympathetic as I used to be. I'm not expecting the red carpet treatment - just a level of civility that you tend to show those you love. I'm so bored of the "I'm not mad at you, I just had a horrible day" answer. If the end result is being treated like crap (sometimes even outright ignored when I come home), there's no difference where it's coming from. I only became more snappy myself in the last year or so. Before that, I just sucked it all up, which maybe meant it seemed ok / the norm to treat me like I'd been out at a bar all day having fun. 

Weekends are about family and relaxing, but while I give my wife time and space to relax (be it sleeping in, taking long baths, naps, going out...) I pretty much never have any relaxing time. My wife says I get this on the bus on my commute home. But a crowded bus is almost never relaxing. I can't even spend an hour on the weekend watching a show or a sporting event without my wife making me feel guilty. The more I think about it the more I realize how unbalanced things have become. 

I'm frustrated that my attempts to put us on a path to try to make things better have been met with such hostility. My wife is now angry and upset with me, as if she'd rather I didn't say anything (and as if by not saying anything it would mean the problems don't exist).


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## wistful_thinking

We have been planning 1 date per week (at least), and it does help. Here in Atlanta lots and lots of churches, community recreation centers, gyms ect have parents night out, and it is really cheap. Would that be something that would help you?

I've read lots of books about relationships, marriage and divorce. I just read HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS and I feel like it might help you. 

For one thing, I think children do take the amount of work you are describing and it is overwhelming; I think be pitching in you can see that. 

I don't think your commute is relaxing.


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## Left arm optimistic

We quit the Y recently (I was the only one using the membership but I would take the kids to the playroom there to give my wife a bit of a break ). Wife wanted to quit to save money and with my new job it was harder to go anyway. So we've lost one avenue (parents night out), but are on the lookout for a reliable sitter . I think some parents keep their good sitters a secret so they don't lose them! This has made finding a sitter much harder than we thought it would be!. 

Definitely aware of the need to spend more quality time together even if it's just with "sofa dates ". Still a bit absurd that the last time we did this, my wife put her laptop away, but still was on her phone once every 20 minutes, and still gets super defensive if I ever call this out. 

Definitely going to read the book you suggested .


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## wistful_thinking

I understand wanting to save money, and at the same time I use it as a getaway. My husband is gone sometimes from 5am-8pm (during his busy time) and the gym is a big thing for me because I can get a break to work on myself, which I use 5 days per week (at least).

At the same time, I feel like the Y may be helpful for your wife while you are gone, you could go together to play 1:1 basketball (or whatever), she could put the kids in classes and y'all could do the parent's night out together. 

Transitioning to a new job is a challenging time. I can understand how you feel changed in your feelings towards her because she is leaning on you too hard to get her needs met without meeting your needs. It would be great if you could read HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS together.

On the other hand, the children are a challenge at this time and she probably feels right making all these demands on you.


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## BetrayedDad

Want to know what's the norm OP? Stay at home parents that SUCK at the job. 

Your wife is one of them. She's lazy and checked out. I agree with the other poster who said it seems the kid's rule the roost. I get that vibe too though that's what happens when you put in bare minimum effort. Being a SAHM is a JOB. More important than any other. If she can't handle the job put the kids in daycare and tell her to get a job to pay for it. She has no appreciation for what you bring to the table, she seems very self centered too. 300-500 texts a day?!? About what? Candy crush? Some crap on a soap? NO ONE could do their job properly with THAT much distraction. Then you walk in the door and she just unloads on you. Piece a work this one is. You need to man up OP and put this pathetic woman in her place. Start setting serious expectations or start shopping for divorce attorneys.


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## Left arm optimistic

wistful_thinking said:


> I understand wanting to save money, and at the same time I use it as a getaway. My husband is gone sometimes from 5am-8pm (during his busy time) and the gym is a big thing for me because I can get a break to work on myself, which I use 5 days per week (at least).
> 
> At the same time, I feel like the Y may be helpful for your wife while you are gone, you could go together to play 1:1 basketball (or whatever), she could put the kids in classes and y'all could do the parent's night out together.
> 
> Transitioning to a new job is a challenging time. I can understand how you feel changed in your feelings towards her because she is leaning on you too hard to get her needs met without meeting your needs. It would be great if you could read HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS together.
> 
> On the other hand, the children are a challenge at this time and she probably feels right making all these demands on you.


I actually used to suggest we all go to the Y, or that during the day my wife put the kids in daycare for an hour or two so she could do some exercise - or even just sit in the lobby and get a breather if she didn't feel like exercising. 

She never really wanted to do it. I used to work from home a couple days a week so it was easy for me to take the little ones to the Y at 4 or 5pm and be home for dinner. In my new job I'm in the office every day, so can't do that anymore. 

For context, my new job is absolutely fantastic. My commute is a bit shorter and I no longer regularly have to work 2-4 hours once the kids are asleep or napping, which is obviously great. Maybe my wife is frustrated that I'm not as happy as I should be given this situation, but it's my home situation that is getting me depressed... I'm just glad I no longer have to deal with the insane work situation too - honestly, I don't quite know how I held myself together working 70-80 hour weeks while waking up most nights, and then getting almost no downtime at home. 

Re demands on me - I don't really feel demands are being made on me. I'm doing what I've always been happy to do - provide for my family, spend time with my kids, and help my wife whenever I can... All I'm really asking is that my wife doesn't bite my head off when I get home from work, and that she spends a bit less time on her devices. When I try to voice this, I'm made to feel that I'm asking for something that is both entirely unreasonable, and can not be given.


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## wistful_thinking

Left arm optimistic said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand wanting to save money, and at the same time I use it as a getaway. My husband is gone sometimes from 5am-8pm (during his busy time) and the gym is a big thing for me because I can get a break to work on myself, which I use 5 days per week (at least).
> 
> At the same time, I feel like the Y may be helpful for your wife while you are gone, you could go together to play 1:1 basketball (or whatever), she could put the kids in classes and y'all could do the parent's night out together.
> 
> Transitioning to a new job is a challenging time. I can understand how you feel changed in your feelings towards her because she is leaning on you too hard to get her needs met without meeting your needs. It would be great if you could read HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS together.
> 
> On the other hand, the children are a challenge at this time and she probably feels right making all these demands on you.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually used to suggest we all go to the Y, or that during the day my wife put the kids in daycare for an hour or two so she could do some exercise - or even just sit in the lobby and get a breather if she didn't feel like exercising.
> 
> She never really wanted to do it. I used to work from home a couple days a week so it was easy for me to take the little ones to the Y at 4 or 5pm and be home for dinner. In my new job I'm in the office every day, so can't do that anymore.
> 
> For context, my new job is absolutely fantastic. My commute is a bit shorter and I no longer regularly have to work 2-4 hours once the kids are asleep or napping, which is obviously great. Maybe my wife is frustrated that I'm not as happy as I should be given this situation, but it's my home situation that is getting me depressed... I'm just glad I no longer have to deal with the insane work situation too - honestly, I don't quite know how I held myself together working 70-80 hour weeks while waking up most nights, and then getting almost no downtime at home.
> 
> Re demands on me - I don't really feel demands are being made on me. I'm doing what I've always been happy to do - provide for my family, spend time with my kids, and help my wife whenever I can... All I'm really asking is that my wife doesn't bite my head off when I get home from work, and that she spends a bit less time on her devices. When I try to voice this, I'm made to feel that I'm asking for something that is both entirely unreasonable, and can not be given.
Click to expand...

I feel like what you are asking for is very reasonable. At the same time maybe it would help if you each made a list of what you need from the relationship. Maybe it would help if both kids did preschool, and your wife worked part time? 

An article I like follows: 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...03/marriage-problems-heres-8-step-rescue-plan


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## kag123

Who made the decision for her to be a SAHM? Did you both want that?

It does not sound like she's happy to be doing it. With the circumstances you've described I cannot say I blame her.

Why is your 5 year old still getting up so many times at night? 

Do you think your children can sense the rift between the two of you? Do you think it affects their behavior? You and your wife should be presenting a united front to the kids to set up rules and expectations that are consistent and they should be followed exactly the same regardless of who is in charge at that moment. 

Have you considered putting the kids in activities during the day so your wife doesn't have them 24/7?

I would not focus conversation with her on "I don't like you very much anymore", rather focus on specific action items for her that you are asking for. For example: "It seems like the moment I get home from work is a tense time for both of us. We have both been under a lot of stress all day and both look to each other to "take over" immediately so that the other person can unwind a bit. I can imagine it must feel frustrating to be sitting around the house waiting for me to come home and tag you out. I am tired too when I get home. What can we do to make sure we each get a bit of time right after I get home to pull ourselves together and feel more refreshed? It's important to me that we are cheerful and relaxed around our kids in the evening and that we are kind to each other. We are both so tired we snap at each other and I don't want us to treat each other that way anymore."


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## EVG39

Would agree with in theory, this very much sounds like a child centered marriage, which as you are finding out is exhausting and not satisfying long term.
I would offer a few suggestions.
First, Re-up at the Y and you and the kids, yes even the two year old, spend several evenings a week and part of the weekend there. Tons of good programs and if all else fails there is always the indoor pool. Little ones can spend hours in an indoor pool as I remember. Good for their development and it gives your wife a break.
Look into a "pre school" a couple of days a week for the little one. Same reason as above.
With some of her free time opened up encourage your wife to use some of it to earn some money of her own. Doesn't have to be a job. Lots of SAH parents supplement the family income by selling on ebay, amazon, etc. That way she has her own money and you and she don't end up at daggers over her spending a couple of hundred a month any way she wants. Its "her" money after all. Then maybe she doesn't need to rot her brain out on mindless TV so much if she is occupied with growing her own business.
Finally, most importantly, resolve to put your marriage, not the children first. Its counterintuitive but study after study show that kids in these kind of marriages are happier, more secure and ultimately more successful than kids in families where it is all about the children.
Good Luck.


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## 3Xnocharm

kag123 said:


> *I would not focus conversation with her on "I don't like you very much anymore", *rather focus on specific action items for her that you are asking for. For example: "It seems like the moment I get home from work is a tense time for both of us. We have both been under a lot of stress all day and both look to each other to "take over" immediately so that the other person can unwind a bit. I can imagine it must feel frustrating to be sitting around the house waiting for me to come home and tag you out. I am tired too when I get home. What can we do to make sure we each get a bit of time right after I get home to pull ourselves together and feel more refreshed? It's important to me that we are cheerful and relaxed around our kids in the evening and that we are kind to each other. We are both so tired we snap at each other and I don't want us to treat each other that way anymore."


I have to agree, this was not a good approach. Although, it SHOULD have opened her eyes to what is going on. 

You guys have a built in babysitter right there in your home, pay your daughter once a week to watch the younger two. Its imperative that you guys get some time to yourselves. If for whatever reason this wont work, try exchanging babysitting nights with your friends who have kids, they are probably in need of date nights as well.


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## TheTruthHurts

My read is that you are quite wishy-washy and your W is asserting all the relationship power that you are ceding to her.

Your posts repeatedly say how considerate you are if her feelings, need to relax, stress levels, need to have the TV on all the time, need to text... 

What the h3ll do YOU want or need?

No - this is not normal in a healthy marriage. Not at all.

Yes - the busyness is - but no - the lack of consideration for each other is not.

You claim to hate all these things yet you allow them to continue. I suspect she doesn't really respect you. Sorry but that's my read.

I suggest you sit down and write up qualities and actions and interactions you expect in your marriage. Then compare them to your reality. THEN decide what you're going to do about it.

I am NOT suggesting you get passive aggressive or all cave manny about it all. But I am suggesting you tackle the problem in a manly way.

By that I mean establish boundaries after assessing your situation as I described above. You seem to be setting your boundaries based on Ws behavior. Instead, I'd write something like this: "after a long work day, I want some solitude for half an hour, then I'd like some time with my kids, then my wife. I want one on one time. I'm flexible on when I spend my time with people, but I need to be connected with my family. How are we going to make this happen?"

Notice I said nothing about your kids issues or your Ws hard day. Those aren't relevant when articulating your needs. W may freak out and say this is impossible - but it's up to you to stick to your needs and rearticulate them. These are reasonable things. Maybe they won't happen every night - but that will be part of the marital negotiation. If the answer is never - well you have an obligation to have the backbone to state that that's unacceptable.

Find out what W needs. You should work to accommodate her as well.

Good luck - I think you will find it difficult to figure out what you want and asking for it - but it is essential if you want a successful marriage.


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## kag123

intheory said:


> The more you post, the more it sounds like your wife is _looking_ to find something else wrong.
> 
> And, no; being a SAHP is NOT harder than going to work at a job.
> Does someone check in with your wife every couple of hours and insist that she get so much work done by 4 o'clock? Does she have to answer to you when you get home? (Obviously not) Is she going to get a job evaluation every year, which determines if her performance is satisfactory? If she does a crummy job as a SAHP, will your source of income disappear?
> 
> I think working outside the home is more stressful. And, because the income it provides makes home and family possible; it is just a bit more important. Don't you think?
> 
> Maybe your wife goes off at you as soon as you walk through the door, because she knows she does a crummy job; and she's on the defensive?
> 
> And you don't even have a car to commute to work in. Boy, I've taken the bus to work in order to save money. It's a looney bin on wheels. I don't ever want to do it again. A lot of the people don't wash. Seems like all the mentally ill folks who aren't taking their meds ride the bus. Everyone espouses how great public transpo is; but it just isn't. I'm sorry for you. There is no way in h.e.ll that a bus ride is "relaxing". Ugh.


I see it a bit differently. 

Having done both the SAHM thing for a year and holding a career (as an essential breadwinner)...I felt the SAHM to be "harder". Very different than a job, for sure. But infinitely harder. 

What I had difficulty adapting to, was that there were NO BREAKS, unlike work where you can at least pee alone, or grab a coffee for 5 minutes to reset yourself. Also unlike work, I was used to working very very hard, concentrating on a task and being able to methodically move through said task. Staying at home was just constant grenades thrown at me every five minutes and never being able to accomplish anything. It felt like nothing ever got done. I found myself feeling defeated and frustrated by dinner time every day. There's also no clocking out as a SAHM. At least at work I have a time when I know I will be leaving.

Everyone is different. Maybe others didn't find it so difficult to be a SAHP. At the time I was doing it I had a newborn and a 1 year old and I was home with them until about ages 1 & 2. I am just wondering if the OP wife may be feeling the same way as I did.


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## Left arm optimistic

Some really great advice in this thread, thanks, it's much appreciated. 



kag123 said:


> Who made the decision for her to be a SAHM? Did you both want that?
> 
> It does not sound like she's happy to be doing it. With the circumstances you've described I cannot say I blame her.
> 
> Why is your 5 year old still getting up so many times at night?
> 
> Do you think your children can sense the rift between the two of you? Do you think it affects their behavior? You and your wife should be presenting a united front to the kids to set up rules and expectations that are consistent and they should be followed exactly the same regardless of who is in charge at that moment.
> 
> Have you considered putting the kids in activities during the day so your wife doesn't have them 24/7?
> 
> I would not focus conversation with her on "I don't like you very much anymore", rather focus on specific action items for her that you are asking for. For example: "It seems like the moment I get home from work is a tense time for both of us. We have both been under a lot of stress all day and both look to each other to "take over" immediately so that the other person can unwind a bit. I can imagine it must feel frustrating to be sitting around the house waiting for me to come home and tag you out. I am tired too when I get home. What can we do to make sure we each get a bit of time right after I get home to pull ourselves together and feel more refreshed? It's important to me that we are cheerful and relaxed around our kids in the evening and that we are kind to each other. We are both so tired we snap at each other and I don't want us to treat each other that way anymore."


Your suggested conversation above is very good. The one thing that shocked me a bit is remembering that I actually had that conversation 4 years ago. But certainly worth trying again in similar terms to the above. 

To answer your questions...5 year old wakes up calling for me after having nightmares. On and off she's been a bad sleeper since she was 2. I think it's just back luck. My younger brother (who I used to share a room with) also used to wake up regularly with nightmares. 5 yr old is getting better now. Recently has been 2-3 nights a week rather than 4-6 nights a week. Makes a big difference. 

My wife wanted to be a SAHM, and I support her in that. I've also been supportive when she's applied for a few jobs that have looked particularly appealing to her and might make her make that choice of work vs. SAHM. 

Not sure how much our kids are picking up on the tension. Thankfully we almost never yell at each other, but we're probably not showing the sort of affection (with each other) that you want your kids to see, but we are both very affectionate towards the kids

@TheTruthHurts. I don't consider myself wishy washy. I'm someone who throughout my life has been able to resolve conflict and work well with others, which makes what's happening now even weirder for me. I think my wife may be in something of a fight or flight mode. 

I think she doesn't realise that by making sure that her needs are met (because of the fact that she's had such a hard day), and admitting that she has nothing left for me, she can't take into consideration how tired or stressed I may be.. And because of this I feel our relationship is at risk. 





intheory said:


> The more you post, the more it sounds like your wife is _looking_ to find something else wrong.
> 
> And, no; being a SAHP is NOT harder than going to work at a job.
> Does someone check in with your wife every couple of hours and insist that she get so much work done by 4 o'clock? Does she have to answer to you when you get home? (Obviously not) Is she going to get a job evaluation every year, which determines if her performance is satisfactory? If she does a crummy job as a SAHP, will your source of income disappear?
> 
> I think working outside the home is more stressful. And, because the income it provides makes home and family possible; it is just a bit more important. Don't you think?
> 
> Maybe your wife goes off at you as soon as you walk through the door, because she knows she does a crummy job; and she's on the defensive?
> 
> And you don't even have a car to commute to work in. Boy, I've taken the bus to work in order to save money. It's a looney bin on wheels. I don't ever want to do it again. A lot of the people don't wash. Seems like all the mentally ill folks who aren't taking their meds ride the bus. Everyone espouses how great public transpo is; but it just isn't. I'm sorry for you. There is no way in h.e.ll that a bus ride is "relaxing". Ugh.


Don't think wife is looking to find something wrong - she keeps saying this came out of the blue (in terms of me expressing these feelings and doubt)

And I do think her job is much harder than mine. Each situation is different, but in my world, her job is definitely harder. As I've said before, it's just that her job being harder doesn't mean my working life is breeze.

I really don't mind commuting. I dislike driving, and can work or read on the bus, even when it's crowded (I always get a seat as I get on and off at the start /end of the line)... and there are some nasty buses, but mine is a commuter route.


----------



## Left arm optimistic

wistful_thinking said:


> I feel like what you are asking for is very reasonable. At the same time maybe it would help if you each made a list of what you need from the relationship. Maybe it would help if both kids did preschool, and your wife worked part time?
> 
> An article I like follows:
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...03/marriage-problems-heres-8-step-rescue-plan


That's a great article -thanks. This bit below is really interesting (in the context of my parents - who split up but were excellent communicators vs. my wife's more emotionally conservative family. 

"Look back at your parents' marriage strengths and weaknesses. Decide what you want to do differently. 

When people marry they bring along a recording in their head of how their parents treated each other, and also how they were treated by their parents. These relationships are where folks learn patterns of interacting for intimate relationships. Decide consciously what to keep from your folks and what to do differently."


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## See_Listen_Love

Left arm optimistic said:


> Last night we actually went on a date night. It was pretty nice, *but she still had her phone out all night and was regularly texting her friend (to the extent that a couple of times I said things that she just ignored because she was too busy texting)*. I kept my phone in my pocket all night. 2-3 times in the past I've mentioned the texting thing and how it negatively impacts our quality time, but *she just gets super defensive about it*.


Ehhh......

Maybe I am a bit deformed by the stories on the infidility forum...but this is actually a red flag. And THEN the snappy behavior etc. etc. also are red flags! :surprise:

You need at least to start a new behavior yourself to make her clear you do not accept her behavior anymore. And take a look at her having a possible EA/PA! Just to exclude the possibility, because otherwise any couple-work on the relation is useless.

But I get a bad feeling about this (for me) incredible rude behavior during a date night. It is totally disrespectful to you.


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## See_Listen_Love

Read No More Mr. Nice Guy!


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## DanielleBennett

I have been a stay at home mom and it is really hard. You don't get the social contact from adults like you would if you were at work and she may feel the need to be on her phone all day in order to have some time that isn't all kid time, you know what I mean? She's probably seeking social companionship from adults vs kids. She also may be stir crazy if she doesn't get out of the house much. If I were you, I would tell her that you love her and that you are here to help her and then just be patient with her and see what happens. If it gets worse, suggest counseling, if it gets better, then great! I understand how you feel though and you are not wrong thinking that this isn't normal because it isn't. Even stay at home moms need to get out some or have time from the kids, take a break, etc. But she shouldn't lash out at you because you are not the enemy here, so that is not right or normal.


----------



## Left arm optimistic

See_Listen_Love said:


> Ehhh......
> 
> Maybe I am a bit deformed by the stories on the infidility forum...but this is actually a red flag. And THEN the snappy behavior etc. etc. also are red flags! :surprise:
> 
> You need at least to start a new behavior yourself to make her clear you do not accept her behavior anymore. And take a look at her having a possible EA/PA! Just to exclude the possibility, because otherwise any couple-work on the relation is useless.
> 
> But I get a bad feeling about this (for me) incredible rude behavior during a date night. It is totally disrespectful to you.


I can well understand people thinking the behavior is red flags to a potential EA or PA, but I'm 99.5% sure that it's nothing like that. She has a female friend with little ones the same age as ours, so they're in constant IM/text chat. And then same re her sister who has 3 little ones. I understand the feelings of isolation that means communicating with people in the same boat is like a lifeline to her. 

She really has no time for any PA (although maybe she's having a EA with her female friend!). 

Really the phone thing is classic addiction behavior. She passes all the tests for addictive behavior including the strong and angry sense of denial when ever I bring it up. I swear sometimes I don't think she even realizes how often she has her phone out.


----------



## Left arm optimistic

DanielleBennett said:


> *I have been a stay at home mom and it is really hard. You don't get the social contact from adults like you would if you were at work and she may feel the need to be on her phone all day in order to have some time that isn't all kid time, you know what I mean? *She's probably seeking social companionship from adults vs kids. She also may be stir crazy if she doesn't get out of the house much. If I were you, I would tell her that you love her and that you are here to help her and then just be patient with her and see what happens. If it gets worse, suggest counseling, if it gets better, then great! I understand how you feel though and you are not wrong thinking that this isn't normal because it isn't. Even stay at home moms need to get out some or have time from the kids, take a break, etc. But she shouldn't lash out at you because you are not the enemy here, so that is not right or normal.


Yes - agree with the bit in bold.. Just a matter of needing moderation.. My kids are growing up thinking spending endless hours on the phone is totally normal. My 5 year old always wants my wifes phone so she can send jibberish / pic messages. it's absurd.and the type of learned behavor that is easily avoidable with a bit of self restraint.


----------



## Left arm optimistic

So... I've spent the last week really making an effort to get less irritated, try to communicate better, making sure my wife knows I'm thankful and appreciative of what she does etc. She doesn't seem interested / have the time / energy to work on making our marriage better / make sure we have a future, so I'm seeing what I can do instead. 

On Friday night, we actually sat on the sofa together (i.e. cuddling together) and spent 25 minutes watching a show, without either of us having our computer or phones out. Last night, I mentioned that it had been the first time that had happened in about a month (because normally I put my computer / phone away but my wife stays on hers). I was saying it to my wife because it was nice that we did this (I probably should have just stated it this way), but instead my wife said (very defensively) "why do you always take it so personally?"... By this she meant, why do I take it personally that she doesn't want to cuddle on the sofa without devices. 

I made the point that a couple weeks ago, she'd said we'd have 1 or 2 nights (between Friday and Sunday nights) where we'd watch TV together and neither of us would have our devices... so, a bit like a 'sofa date'... But last weekend, I spent all 3 nights Friday-Sunday without my computer, but she still had hers. Last night I said to her that she'd been on her computer all 3 nights, and her instant response was "well, you were doing exactly the same". I pointed out that I wasn't - and she believes me, but then said "well, then if you put your computer away it was as if you were testing me to see if I'd do the same". She also pointed out that she did move closer to me on the sofa, albeit with her computer still. I actually wasn't testing her. I thought that since it was her idea to have device free nights, I shouldn't really have to say "look, I've put my computer away, you should do it too..." But maybe I should have? 

Again, I never really thought I'd end up with someone where I'd even have to say "hey, let's actually spend some quality time together without device interruptions" particularly as it was her idea in the first place. 

She always says - and experience does back this up - that when she puts her devices away and cuddles on the sofa, she normally just falls asleep. It's ironic in some ways, given that she gets 30 minutes to an hour more sleep than me each day during the week, and then normally sleeps in for an hour or two on the weekend (and this is after me being the one getting up at night for our kids 90% of the time)... But then I wonder, why can she stay awake until midnight on her computer, but falls asleep at 9.30 if she puts her devices away? Honestly, I may be a comfortable person to cuddle, but I'm not a complete, bore... My wife now makes me feel that I'm too boring to be of any interest to her, and the only way she can keep awake and in my company, is by being on her computer or phone, chatting to her friend or family on IM. I think it's kind of lame. But maybe we're now just different people. She's perfectly happy having that sort of evening every night of her life. I don't want to go out and party, but I wouldn't mind feeling a little bit more than room-mates occasionally.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Sorry - sounds like she just isn't into you. 

I'd never live that way - I'm too selfish. And I'd never make a spouse live that way if I wasn't into them.

I can't believe you put your computer away 3 nights and never asked her to do the same. If you were better at communicating, you wouldn't be setting up a covert contract - you do something and expect her to do something in return, then get butt hurt when she doesn't. Then suck in your hurt to build resentment, and be nice when she gets angry at you for holding her to the agreement she never made. 

NO - she DIDN'T agree to put her computer away on THOSE nights. She admitted that she didn't notice that you'd put yours away. So while she CONCEPTUALLY agreed to the couch dates - you SHOULD have explicitly talked about it. 

Your communications and expectations are the major problem here - that is all on you. A healthier reaction would have been like this "Hon - a few days ago you suggested / we suggested (be accurate about who suggested this) we have a couch date a few times a week. How about tonight? I'm willing to put my computer down if you're interested. What do you say?"

Be explicit. Be honest. Ask for what you want. Then LISTEN - don't assume. She may say "I'm really tired from the kids and wound up at the same time - I want to chill on my laptop" or something. THATS OK. But find out. If it's "no" then BE DIRECT and ASK FOR WHAT YOU WANT - "ok Hun I can understand. What nights do you want to set aside for us?" Then listen.

If she won't commit, then continue the dialog until you have an agreement. You HAVE to keep talking or I guarantee you will string this along forever.

If she won't commit and that's not acceptable - you owe it to both of you to be honest about what this means. It's ok to say "sounds like you're just not that into spending alone time with me. Am I understanding you right?" If she denies it but won't commit - it's ok to let her know the consequences - IF ANY. For me it would be simple and direct "if you're not willing or able to put in the work to build our marriage, then I'm afraid we're not going to last as a couple." No need for drama or threats. 

Figure out what you want and get it. No more covert contracts and manipulation or doormat behavior.

Good luck but I don't think you can do this based on what I've read - sorry but that's what I see.

BTW I've been in this exact situation - different details - but distraction and being out of sync are common in marriage. The difference is my W never disrespected me and never did it on purpose. Still I had to push, push, push for priority with my W. I hated pushing - but I hated being last on a punch list that never got to the end. So I know if you don't state clearly what you need and want and expect you will never get it. You still may not but then you have a decision to make. (My W has made huge changes and continues to work on this - and I continue to try to balance my needs with her capabilities and progress - and trying never to appear needy - just as a spouse with needs. So it's a work in progress.)


----------



## Left arm optimistic

TheTruthHurts said:


> Sorry - sounds like she just isn't into you.
> 
> I'd never live that way - I'm too selfish. And I'd never make a spouse live that way if I wasn't into them.
> 
> I can't believe you put your computer away 3 nights and never asked her to do the same. If you were better at communicating, you wouldn't be setting up a covert contract - you do something and expect her to do something in return, then get butt hurt when she doesn't. Then suck in your hurt to build resentment, and be nice when she gets angry at you for holding her to the agreement she never made.
> 
> NO - she DIDN'T agree to put her computer away on THOSE nights. She admitted that she didn't notice that you'd put yours away. So while she CONCEPTUALLY agreed to the couch dates - you SHOULD have explicitly talked about it.
> 
> Your communications and expectations are the major problem here - that is all on you. A healthier reaction would have been like this "Hon - a few days ago you suggested / we suggested (be accurate about who suggested this) we have a couch date a few times a week. How about tonight? I'm willing to put my computer down if you're interested. What do you say?"
> 
> Be explicit. Be honest. Ask for what you want. Then LISTEN - don't assume. She may say "I'm really tired from the kids and wound up at the same time - I want to chill on my laptop" or something. THATS OK. But find out. If it's "no" then BE DIRECT and ASK FOR WHAT YOU WANT - "ok Hun I can understand. What nights do you want to set aside for us?" Then listen.
> 
> If she won't commit, then continue the dialog until you have an agreement. You HAVE to keep talking or I guarantee you will string this along forever.
> 
> If she won't commit and that's not acceptable - you owe it to both of you to be honest about what this means. It's ok to say "sounds like you're just not that into spending alone time with me. Am I understanding you right?" If she denies it but won't commit - it's ok to let her know the consequences - IF ANY. For me it would be simple and direct "if you're not willing or able to put in the work to build our marriage, then I'm afraid we're not going to last as a couple." No need for drama or threats.
> 
> Figure out what you want and get it. No more covert contracts and manipulation or doormat behavior.
> 
> Good luck but I don't think you can do this based on what I've read - sorry but that's what I see.
> 
> BTW I've been in this exact situation - different details - but distraction and being out of sync are common in marriage. The difference is my W never disrespected me and never did it on purpose. Still I had to push, push, push for priority with my W. I hated pushing - but I hated being last on a punch list that never got to the end. So I know if you don't state clearly what you need and want and expect you will never get it. You still may not but then you have a decision to make. (My W has made huge changes and continues to work on this - and I continue to try to balance my needs with her capabilities and progress - and trying never to appear needy - just as a spouse with needs. So it's a work in progress.)



I think you make some fair points. 

re: " If you were better at communicating, you wouldn't be setting up a covert contract - you do something and expect her to do something in return, then get butt hurt when she doesn't. Then suck in your hurt to build resentment, and be nice when she gets angry at you for holding her to the agreement she never made."

I don't know if it was a convert contract. It's unfortunately got to that point where regardless of how I try to communicate, things often tend to spiral down. She doesn't like talking about our relationship, she doesn't like answering questions, she doesn't like me saying anything that could make her geel guilty. She suggested having device free nights. She's always telling me how hard her days are, and if in her heart, she'd rather sit on IM chatting than spend quality time on her husband, I don't know if I want to specifically say anything about out. Ugh, maybe subconsciously it was a test by me?

And maybe I have unintentionally become a doormat. 

will try reply more later - wife just got home...


----------



## Left arm optimistic

TheTruthHurts said:


> Sorry - sounds like she just isn't into you.


I think she just has completely different expectations and perceptions on what married life is like. She says she's happy in her marriage. Her actions and attitudes make me unsure of whether or not this is the case, but she says she's happy, just exhausted, stressed by the kids etc, and she always seems surprised when I bring up any deep any meaningful conversations about where our marriage is headed. 

Early on in the thread, someone posted an article that included mention of how our parents marriages influence us as adults. My parents divorced when I was a teenager, but with the exception of my parents in the few years before their divorce, there was always a lot of love and affection in my household. My wife's parents are still together, but they mostly spend their evenings in separate living rooms, watching their separate TV shows. I don't think there was a huge amount of love or affection in the household. So, I think on one level, for my wife, our current life is absolutely normal to her. 




TheTruthHurts said:


> I can't believe you put your computer away 3 nights and never asked her to do the same. If you were better at communicating, you wouldn't be setting up a covert contract - you do something and expect her to do something in return, then get butt hurt when she doesn't. Then suck in your hurt to build resentment, and be nice when she gets angry at you for holding her to the agreement she never made.
> 
> NO - she DIDN'T agree to put her computer away on THOSE nights. She admitted that she didn't notice that you'd put yours away. So while she CONCEPTUALLY agreed to the couch dates - you SHOULD have explicitly talked about it.
> 
> Your communications and expectations are the major problem here - that is all on you. A healthier reaction would have been like this "Hon - a few days ago you suggested / we suggested (be accurate about who suggested this) we have a couch date a few times a week. How about tonight? I'm willing to put my computer down if you're interested. What do you say?"
> 
> Be explicit. Be honest. Ask for what you want. Then LISTEN - don't assume. She may say "I'm really tired from the kids and wound up at the same time - I want to chill on my laptop" or something. THATS OK. But find out. If it's "no" then BE DIRECT and ASK FOR WHAT YOU WANT - "ok Hun I can understand. What nights do you want to set aside for us?" Then listen.


I agree with some of this, but the whole situation is also tied up to the fact that my wife is completely addicted to her devices, and gets very, very defensive when ever I bring this up. I don't want it to seem like she's doing me some massive favor by putting her computer away for the night. I want her to want to spend time with me. 

I've already spoken to her many times about us needing to have more quality time together. I get what you're saying about covert contracts, but it seems a sign of a pretty messed up relationship if I have to explicitly say "put your device away" when I've already brought it up (her spending so much time on her devices) so many times. It's also got to that stage where I just go round and round in my head on the best way to communicate with her, and which-ever way I try, which ever words I choose are met either by eye rolls, anger, defensiveness... never anything that is more in a vein of "ok, I see there is a serious issue here, let's between us try to discuss / resolve it"... it's because of these kind of reactions that I've been suggesting counselling. 



TheTruthHurts said:


> If she won't commit, then continue the dialog until you have an agreement. You HAVE to keep talking or I guarantee you will string this along forever.
> 
> If she won't commit and that's not acceptable - you owe it to both of you to be honest about what this means. It's ok to say "sounds like you're just not that into spending alone time with me. Am I understanding you right?" If she denies it but won't commit - it's ok to let her know the consequences - IF ANY. For me it would be simple and direct *"if you're not willing or able to put in the work to build our marriage, then I'm afraid we're not going to last as a couple.*" No need for drama or threats.
> 
> Figure out what you want and get it. No more covert contracts and manipulation or doormat behavior.
> 
> Good luck but I don't think you can do this based on what I've read - sorry but that's what I see.
> 
> BTW I've been in this exact situation - different details - but distraction and being out of sync are common in marriage. The difference is *my W never disrespected me and never did it on purpose*. Still I had to push, push, push for priority with my W. I hated pushing - but I hated being last on a punch list that never got to the end. So I know if you don't state clearly what you need and want and expect you will never get it. You still may not but then you have a decision to make. (My W has made huge changes and continues to work on this - and I continue to try to balance my needs with her capabilities and progress - and trying never to appear needy - just as a spouse with needs. So it's a work in progress.)


Re the 2 bits in bold... The first one - I have said I think we need to work with a relationship counselor to save our marriage. I also suggested the online course (sticky in this forum) that is part of the academic study, since neither of us have a huge amount of time on our hands, and money is tight...

The second bold bit is trickier. I'm not sure if she's deliberately disrespecting me or if she's just so involved with the kids, and keeping herself afloat, that (as she has admitted) she has absolutely nothing left to give me. But the end result is that I do feel she has absolutely no respect for me, my feelings, how hard I've worked to provide a great house, financial security, and how much more help and support I've given her, in stark contrast to the many less helpful husbands she's always telling me about via her friends. 

Maybe we were just wrong for each other, and our circumstances brought us together. I'd been single for a while, she seemed loving and caring, while she had had a horrible first marriage to someone who was unsupportive, emotionally abusive and not financially secure. Maybe she just wanted support, a nice guy, and a nice house. Maybe this is all she really needs from a relationship, so once we got those honeymoon years out of the way, she was perfectly happy, while I'm the one wanting something more intellectually and emotionally stimulating. 

What does upset me is that I really have tried to talk about this, suggest we go to a counsellor etc to save our marriage, and she's just saying no, and that If I want to walk away, then it's all down to me, and nothing to do with her.


----------



## LaundryMan

I'm inclined to think that this IS the norm. Kids can only hurt a marriage, the question is whether they make the rest of your life better enough to be worth it. But that ship has sailed.

I'm going to go one step beneath the others and suggest that she doesn't like being a SAHM as much as she thought she would (this was the situation with my wife, among other things). And she may feel ashamed of herself for feeling that way, because women are put under a lot of pressure (some conscious, but mostly unconscious) to think that being a mom is the greatest thing in the universe, when of course it can be quite unpleasant. Do you think she might have a problem with mild-moderate depression? What about yourself? That would be something to look at.

But in the shorter term I agree with what the last few posters have said. Make time and communicate very clearly.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Left arm optimistic said:


> So... I've spent the last week really making an effort to get less irritated, try to communicate better, making sure my wife knows I'm thankful and appreciative of what she does etc. She doesn't seem interested / have the time / energy to work on making our marriage better / make sure we have a future, so I'm seeing what I can do instead.
> 
> On Friday night, we actually sat on the sofa together (i.e. cuddling together) and spent 25 minutes watching a show, without either of us having our computer or phones out. Last night, I mentioned that it had been the first time that had happened in about a month (because normally I put my computer / phone away but my wife stays on hers). I was saying it to my wife because it was nice that we did this (I probably should have just stated it this way), but instead my wife said (very defensively) "why do you always take it so personally?"... By this she meant, why do I take it personally that she doesn't want to cuddle on the sofa without devices.
> 
> I made the point that a couple weeks ago, she'd said we'd have 1 or 2 nights (between Friday and Sunday nights) where we'd watch TV together and neither of us would have our devices... so, a bit like a 'sofa date'... But last weekend, I spent all 3 nights Friday-Sunday without my computer, but she still had hers. Last night I said to her that she'd been on her computer all 3 nights, and her instant response was "well, you were doing exactly the same". I pointed out that I wasn't - and she believes me, but then said "well, then if you put your computer away it was as if you were testing me to see if I'd do the same". She also pointed out that she did move closer to me on the sofa, albeit with her computer still. I actually wasn't testing her. I thought that since it was her idea to have device free nights, I shouldn't really have to say "look, I've put my computer away, you should do it too..." But maybe I should have?
> 
> Again, I never really thought I'd end up with someone where I'd even have to say "hey, let's actually spend some quality time together without device interruptions" particularly as it was her idea in the first place.
> 
> She always says - and experience does back this up - that when she puts her devices away and cuddles on the sofa, she normally just falls asleep. It's ironic in some ways, given that she gets 30 minutes to an hour more sleep than me each day during the week, and then normally sleeps in for an hour or two on the weekend (and this is after me being the one getting up at night for our kids 90% of the time)... But then I wonder, why can she stay awake until midnight on her computer, but falls asleep at 9.30 if she puts her devices away? Honestly, I may be a comfortable person to cuddle, but I'm not a complete, bore... My wife now makes me feel that I'm too boring to be of any interest to her, and the only way she can keep awake and in my company, is by being on her computer or phone, chatting to her friend or family on IM. I think it's kind of lame. But maybe we're now just different people. She's perfectly happy having that sort of evening every night of her life. I don't want to go out and party, but I wouldn't mind feeling a little bit more than room-mates occasionally.


You made an effort good for you. 

I think that you both need to upgrade your relationship skills. Firstly communication, you both seem to need to upgrade your communication needs so you can express your wants and needs. Susan Heitler's book and she has online relationship coaching for $18 per month, which focuses mainly on communication skills, which means learning how to say what you want in a positive, loving way. 

Second, do you know what your needs are? I think HNHN will help you and her understand eachother more.

Now more practical advice: 

Watching TV as a date never worked for me either. I understand why you do it and at the same time I am not surprised it didn't work for you. 

I think watching TV is the opposite of a romantic date. My husband often falls asleep during TV. I disagree that this has anything to do with you. What you should be doing is having intimate conversations (like when you walk around a park or go out to dinner) or doing fun stuff together (sports, board games ect). That is a fun date, and it is impossible to do at home.

I get why you watch TV as a date: finding a babysitter is hard, it's expensive, why put on the effort ect. And at the same time, you both need time away from your kids, and it's good for your relationship.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

LAO I see you are getting it - but not really getting it. You're too much in your head. It's not her job to read your mind and she's too tired to even try.

She's in the wrong for not being aware that the marriage is doing poorly. But you're in the wrong for continuing to think instead of acting.

You mention something you want to do - then backslide while saying - blaming actually - your wife's expected or prior reaction to what you want to say or do. This is completely common - normal - but it is codependent behavior to react to her instead of acting on your own.

Let me paint a clearer picture for you. I'm Cro-Magnon man to your Renaissance Man. If I want - I take. If I want to do - I do. If I want to express myself - believe me I express myself.

Be Cro-Magnon man with respect to your needs. "woman - put down that device and pay attention to me!". I trust it will come out gentler from your Cro-Magnon man. But frankly - THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING DIRECT AND EVEN SLIGHTLY AGGRESSIVE WITH YOUR NEEDS.

I think something happened to the way men were raised - after my day - where a man was supposed to "always" be considerate. That creates the dreaded "nice guy". Because we are all a bit caveman but when we repress it, it gets ugly, resentful, naggy, needy... Ugh - a real turn off for most women.

Now you will be surprised by what I say next - but the honest women of TAM will back me up on this. If the good women of TAM were acting like your W - even though the fatigue might be justified - they would want their man to NOT put up with their sh1t. Of course they'd push back and argue like your W does - but they would WANT their H to straighten their attitude out. Just as us cavemen want to be softened from time to time when we get too "hair-draggy".

Your mistake is in not believing you deserve to have your needs met, and allowing your W's reaction to affect your actions. And in believing that being strong and independent is somehow inconsiderate.

So find your inner wolf or cave man and express your needs and don't accept her pushback. What have you got to lose? You're already unhappy and she is content with things. They will only change if you tell her what you need and stand your ground.

Good luck.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

OP, You display the typical Beta behavior. And she shows all the typical reactions to it.

'Man up or shut up' is the road for you. Since you love her, this only ends well if you 'Man up'.

Don't talk so much, it is useless. Read on these forums about books you can buy to correct your behavior. If you want her back, and your selfrespect back, that is. 

If you want to live your live as it has been, and that would then be the 'best alternative of her staying or her leaving, then continue as you do.


----------



## Left arm optimistic

TheTruthHurts said:


> LAO I see you are getting it - but not really getting it. You're too much in your head. It's not her job to read your mind and she's too tired to even try.
> 
> She's in the wrong for not being aware that the marriage is doing poorly. But you're in the wrong for continuing to think instead of acting.
> 
> *You mention something you want to do - then backslide while saying - blaming actually - your wife's expected or prior reaction to what you want to say or do. This is completely common - normal - but it is codependent behavior to react to her instead of acting on your own.
> *
> Let me paint a clearer picture for you. I'm Cro-Magnon man to your Renaissance Man. If I want - I take. If I want to do - I do. If I want to express myself - believe me I express myself.
> 
> Be Cro-Magnon man with respect to your needs. "woman - put down that device and pay attention to me!". I trust it will come out gentler from your Cro-Magnon man. But frankly - THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING DIRECT AND EVEN SLIGHTLY AGGRESSIVE WITH YOUR NEEDS.
> 
> I think something happened to the way men were raised - after my day - where a man was supposed to "always" be considerate. That creates the dreaded "nice guy". Because we are all a bit caveman but when we repress it, it gets ugly, resentful, naggy, needy... Ugh - a real turn off for most women.
> 
> Now you will be surprised by what I say next - but the honest women of TAM will back me up on this. If the good women of TAM were acting like your W - even though the fatigue might be justified - they would want their man to NOT put up with their sh1t. Of course they'd push back and argue like your W does - but they would WANT their H to straighten their attitude out. Just as us cavemen want to be softened from time to time when we get too "hair-draggy".
> 
> Your mistake is in not believing you deserve to have your needs met, and allowing your W's reaction to affect your actions. And in believing that being strong and independent is somehow inconsiderate.
> 
> So find your inner wolf or cave man and express your needs and don't accept her pushback. What have you got to lose? You're already unhappy and she is content with things. They will only change if you tell her what you need and stand your ground.
> 
> Good luck.


That's a very good post - thanks. 

And re the bit in bold - you're spot on, I did a really poor job there.


----------



## Left arm optimistic

wistful_thinking said:


> You made an effort good for you.
> 
> I think that you both need to upgrade your relationship skills. Firstly communication, you both seem to need to upgrade your communication needs so you can express your wants and needs. Susan Heitler's book and she has online relationship coaching for $18 per month, which focuses mainly on communication skills, which means learning how to say what you want in a positive, loving way.
> 
> Second, do you know what your needs are? I think HNHN will help you and her understand eachother more.





See_Listen_Love said:


> OP, You display the typical Beta behavior. And she shows all the typical reactions to it.
> 
> 'Man up or shut up' is the road for you. Since you love her, this only ends well if you 'Man up'.
> 
> Don't talk so much, it is useless. Read on these forums about books you can buy to correct your behavior. If you want her back, and your selfrespect back, that is.
> 
> If you want to live your live as it has been, and that would then be the 'best alternative of her staying or her leaving, then continue as you do.


Have been doing some reading (still looking for the right book). HNHN is mad though. There's almost certainly some useful stuff in there, but it was written in the 1970s and it shows. Even the chapter headings seem like the sort of material that fuels spoofs these days "He Needs a Good-looking Wife - An Attractive Spouse".... Stuff about a man needing to come home to a blissfully calm home, where the dinner is ready and everyone is happy and perfect... just seems so detached from the reality of life with 2 kids. And I'm happy to help my wife when I get home from work. 


So.. definitely want to do more reading, but without a huge amount of time read, I want to make sure I'm reading the very best stuff out there. 

On the other hand, "man up or shut up" is a pretty good call too... 

And I hope all is well with you and your friends and family @See_Listen_Love - I've been to Brussels many many times, and was so sad to see the news today.


----------



## Left arm optimistic

LaundryMan said:


> I'm inclined to think that this IS the norm. Kids can only hurt a marriage, the question is whether they make the rest of your life better enough to be worth it. But that ship has sailed.
> 
> I'm going to go one step beneath the others and suggest that she doesn't like being a SAHM as much as she thought she would (this was the situation with my wife, among other things). And she may feel ashamed of herself for feeling that way, because women are put under a lot of pressure (some conscious, but mostly unconscious) to think that being a mom is the greatest thing in the universe, when of course it can be quite unpleasant. Do you think she might have a problem with mild-moderate depression? What about yourself? That would be something to look at.
> 
> But in the shorter term I agree with what the last few posters have said. Make time and communicate very clearly.


I 100% agree that she doesn't like being a SAHM - but I've never put pressure on her to do it. It's exactly what she wanted to do, which is why I went from working as a consultant part time (when she was working FT) to working 60+ hours a week to support her being a SAHM, and give her the house, car, life etc she had always wanted. I think she's an absolute natural with newborns and infants... The first year or so of each of our little one's lives were really pretty peaceful. But I think with the kids older now, the demands are so different and the struggle is much more than the envisaged. 

I've encouraged her to apply for jobs if they look interesting (she's actually applied for a couple, been asked to come in for interviews and then cancelled at the last moment.) She cancels because she says she feels bad for the kids, but I tell her they'll be absolutely fine (which they will be) and that it will likely make her happier because she won't be under the same mad stress. 

Think my wife hesitates re work partly because she's worried that if she's also working FT, the house will become a state, and I won't pick up the slack. she's likely right about me not picking up too much slack (given that I have almost no down time so couldn't really fit it in if I wanted), but it we had 2 incomes, I'd be happy to pay for a cleaner a few times a week, and eat out more.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Left arm optimistic said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> You made an effort good for you.
> 
> I think that you both need to upgrade your relationship skills. Firstly communication, you both seem to need to upgrade your communication needs so you can express your wants and needs. Susan Heitler's book and she has online relationship coaching for $18 per month, which focuses mainly on communication skills, which means learning how to say what you want in a positive, loving way.
> 
> Second, do you know what your needs are? I think HNHN will help you and her understand eachother more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See_Listen_Love said:
> 
> 
> 
> OP, You display the typical Beta behavior. And she shows all the typical reactions to it.
> 
> 'Man up or shut up' is the road for you. Since you love her, this only ends well if you 'Man up'.
> 
> Don't talk so much, it is useless. Read on these forums about books you can buy to correct your behavior. If you want her back, and your selfrespect back, that is.
> 
> If you want to live your live as it has been, and that would then be the 'best alternative of her staying or her leaving, then continue as you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Have been doing some reading (still looking for the right book). HNHN is mad though. There's almost certainly some useful stuff in there, but it was written in the 1970s and it shows. Even the chapter headings seem like the sort of material that fuels spoofs these days "He Needs a Good-looking Wife - An Attractive Spouse".... Stuff about a man needing to come home to a blissfully calm home, where the dinner is ready and everyone is happy and perfect... just seems so detached from the reality of life with 2 kids. And I'm happy to help my wife when I get home from work.
> 
> 
> So.. definitely want to do more reading, but without a huge amount of time read, I want to make sure I'm reading the very best stuff out there.
> 
> On the other hand, "man up or shut up" is a pretty good call too...
> 
> And I hope all is well with you and your friends and family @See_Listen_Love - I've been to Brussels many many times, and was so sad to see the news today.
Click to expand...

Dude - I read it an realized it was spot on. I never had pressured my W to be attractive for me before, but then, damm, I realized I liked that idea. And I pushed and bought her stuff and encouraged W to step up her game! Yeah she works and is a mom of 5 but why shouldn't she be all that and a bag o chips for me too??? So I'm older and maybe more inclined to go for what I want. That's not old school! That's acknowledging that I deserve to have a woman I can be proud of! And I'm working out and getting fitter so she can be proud of me. WTF happened to men who are afraid to say "honey, shape up and be sexy for me and I'll do the same" 

Are you actually saying you're totally fine if your W is fat and wears crappy clothes and no makeup? Or are you ashamed to admit that you want to be proud to have the most beautiful wife in the room? Ya know, I'm not! And I hope you realize that's a fair expectation - to put your best foot forward for your S. AND have a bit of calm when you get home from work. It's ok to still be a man. Don't apologize for it.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Left arm optimistic said:


> Have been doing some reading (still looking for the right book). HNHN is mad though. There's almost certainly some useful stuff in there, but it was written in the 1970s and it shows. Even the chapter headings seem like the sort of material that fuels spoofs these days "He Needs a Good-looking Wife - An Attractive Spouse".... Stuff about a man needing to come home to a blissfully calm home, where the dinner is ready and everyone is happy and perfect... just seems so detached from the reality of life with 2 kids. And I'm happy to help my wife when I get home from work.
> 
> 
> So.. definitely want to do more reading, but without a huge amount of time read, I want to make sure I'm reading the very best stuff out there.
> 
> On the other hand, "man up or shut up" is a pretty good call too...
> 
> And I hope all is well with you and your friends and family @*See_Listen_Love* - I've been to Brussels many many times, and was so sad to see the news today.


No relatives or friends were involved because I live away from Brussels. But that is just coincidence, everyone now and then comes to major cities, airports etc. It can happen everywhere.

It is terrible and shocking, but so strange, after even the second day already a certain 'life goes on' spirit automatically evolves. We actually can do nothing about it, other then hope the authorities take the right measures. But as a citizen you will not know what really happens untill years later. I would not mind if these terrorists got shot some more then now happens. Let them be active to put some water and green in the deserts instead of bringing the rest of the world to the stone age.

The book most mentioned here on TAM is 'No More Mr Nice Guy' NMMNG. If the cost is too much you can even download a free pdf copy somewhere. Use search.

If you want to be a bit more 'male hunter' there is the website and book of a guy I forgot about, but is also mentioned a lot in the same posts where NMMNG is referred to. Use search to find some.


----------



## Left arm optimistic

. 
So, it's been a few months since I posted, and some stuff has changed, but mostly things are the same, or fundamentally worse. 
On the plus side, my wife tends to be less angry / stressed when I get home from work, and is also less frequently texting me to tell me how awful things are at home (I told her I find this frustrating when I’m at work as there’s very little - other than offering her support – that I can do, and it makes me feel crap). I think these changes are a mix of her making more of an effort and the fact that our kids have been slightly less crazy/demanding recently (i.e. have been playing together a bit more, and playing outside now the weather is nice). But either way, I appreciate that she is making an effort on this. 

I’ve done a lot of reading (including NMMNG, some of which resonates,) but as the days pass, I’m just less and less optimistic about our future. We’ve had a few arguments, and a few honest (and inevitably upsetting) discussions, including those where we’ve mentioned divorce. I’ve tried to communicate constructively, but she never receives anything that I say with anything other than defensiveness and anger. It gets to the point where I wonder if I’m going mad and it’s all in my head (but I know that it’s not). 

The way she treats me, and the transparent lack of respect she has for me is not a world I want to continue living in. It’s got to the point where I am worried that I’m going to leave a lasting negative impression on my kids by staying and that having 2 happier parents not living together would be better for them. 

She has such a reluctance to going to counselling, that I don’t really see the point. Her going there resentfully would be a waste of time and money. I’ve done research and found someone who looks great, but my wife doesn’t want to drive 45 mins away. I’d think such things aren’t hugely significant when trying to save a marriage. She did research and suggested we went to somebody who doesn’t even do couple’s counselling (but is 5 minutes away). 

The weird thing is that I don’t think she’s a horrible person who has set out to do this. I just think her emotional capacity and energy has been so diminished by being a SAHM, that what she sees as fine and normal has turned me into a pretty miserable and angry person, with increasingly low self esteem. 

I also think that she’s not done the greatest job as a SAHM, which is partly why she’s having such a hard time of it with our little ones. There have always been too many short term gains (giving in too easily, too much screen time...) and we're now reaping the long term consequences. I’ve said in other posts that I believe being a SAHM is harder than having a FT employed job, and I stick by that. But I think she either should have done a better job of it, or she should have got a job so she didn’t need to be a SAHM. She wanted to do this, and yet here we are…


----------



## niceguy28

OP this is a typical issue that couples have. Being with kids all day can drive you absolutely insane and your wife see's you as somebody who gets to go be around adults all day and not be on all the time. I'm sure you have downtime at work but when you are home with kids you don't have any down time unless they are napping for 30 mins. You work 60 hrs a week but I assure you that she would probably switch places with you if she could. If I were you guys, I would have her get back into the workforce. Yea her check will get eaten up by daycare but her mental state would be better and she would also be be paying into social security which will be very important down the road. There are costs to everything in life. Right now her choosing to be a stay at home wife is costing you happiness in your marriage. If you could put a dollar figure on that how much would you pay to be happy? You guys need a shakeup and I really think her going to work would help a lot.


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## jb02157

No, this is not normal. I suggest planning to have her go back to work as soon as possible. If she doesn't go back to work all the things she is doing to aggravate you will only get worse. She'll gain alot of weight, sex will become non-existent, she will start spending alot more and she will get very PA and bossy. That's what happens with practically every SAHM. You have to break this pattern and make her go back to work.


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## Anon1111

don't bother with the marriage counseling.

she doesn't want to go, so she will reject anything that comes out of it. it will just be a waste of time/money and another thing to fight about.

try to have 1 more conversation with her where you let her know in a calm way that you don't feel appreciated or respected and you can't see things continuing in this direction much longer. let her know (again calmly) that if she treats you with disrespect, you will be ending the interaction. 

if you can't engage in a calm conversation with her at this point due to her inability to communicate, then write her a letter or email. if YOU can't remain calm at this point, then YOU have a problem that you need to work on before you lay anything on her.

after delivering this message, BE CONSISTENT and follow through on your promise. walk away at the first sign of disrespect/drama. let her see that if she does not value your contributions, she does not get the benefit of your attention.

on the phone thing specifically, let her know that you'll no longer be engaging in 1 sided conversations. if she doesn't put the phone down, say, "Come find me when you're ready to focus" then walk away.

she will flip out a lot more at first and then will calm down after you demonstrate that you won't tolerate it any more.

give it a few months.

after she calms down and can focus on a real conversation without the phone, only then should you bring up the stuff about her doing a better job with the kids and maybe going back to work.


----------



## Left arm optimistic

Anon1111 said:


> don't bother with the marriage counseling.
> 
> she doesn't want to go, so she will reject anything that comes out of it. it will just be a waste of time/money and another thing to fight about.
> 
> try to have 1 more conversation with her where you let her know in a calm way that you don't feel appreciated or respected and you can't see things continuing in this direction much longer. let her know (again calmly) that if she treats you with disrespect, you will be ending the interaction.
> 
> if you can't engage in a calm conversation with her at this point due to her inability to communicate, then write her a letter or email. if YOU can't remain calm at this point, then YOU have a problem that you need to work on before you lay anything on her.
> 
> after delivering this message, BE CONSISTENT and follow through on your promise. walk away at the first sign of disrespect/drama. let her see that if she does not value your contributions, she does not get the benefit of your attention.
> 
> on the phone thing specifically, let her know that you'll no longer be engaging in 1 sided conversations. if she doesn't put the phone down, say, "Come find me when you're ready to focus" then walk away.
> 
> she will flip out a lot more at first and then will calm down after you demonstrate that you won't tolerate it any more.
> 
> give it a few months.
> 
> after she calms down and can focus on a real conversation without the phone, only then should you bring up the stuff about her doing a better job with the kids and maybe going back to work.


I have tried to have these calm, reasoned conversations, but they don't really work. In fact the last time I tried to have a calm conversation she just got angry, said "I'm done talking" (after 2 minutes) and then locked me out of our bedroom. And in the 2 minutes I was talking to her, her computer was on her lap and she was IMing her friend - like she'd rather IM her friend and tell her minute by minute all the "horrible" things I'm saying to her than try to address things. 

A month or so ago, she asked me to sum up what was wrong in once sentence. I said things aren't as simple as that, but I could explain it in an email. She said she was sick of long emails from me. So it's like the lines for meaningful communication are shut. 

There's talk earlier in this thread about covert contracts and the like, and I understand this, but while I have managed to say in the past that I don't feel respected or appreciated, I don't feel I should need to set out very specific details of what it means to be respected and appreciated. 

I shouldn't have to specifically say "please don't lock me out of our bedroom" or "please clean up the dog poop (where our kids play) after relentlessly begging us to get a dog and promising you'd clean up after it". I don't think I should need to say that in talking to me, when she refers to our bedroom or our car as "my bedroom" or "my car" it makes me feel like I'm not really a part of her life beyond provider and childcare. 

A few weeks ago, I came out of putting the kids to bed, and my wife was gone. I texted her to ask her where she was and why she went out without even leaving me a note. She said she'd just gone to pick up something someone had been giving away. I went to take a shower, got out found our car was back, but my wife was out again. This time she'd gone to walk the dog (which she does about once a week) but again, she didn't tell me where she was... I just think this is really odd behavior - and no, she's definitely not having an affair) - I just don't think she really cares.

Another example - our sofa was 8 yrs old. She wanted a new sofa. I wasn't completely against the idea but thought better to wait until all kids are potty trained. Finally, as with too many things (and I'm obviously to blame leting this happen), I got worn down by the constant bugging... yes, some time in the near future we can get a new sofa. Next thing (later that day) some people knock on the door and say they're here to pick up our sofa. So then obviously we need a new sofa right away. 

We've had so many discussions about money, but nothing changes. Combination of new job and better benefits means I'm lucky enough to have had my take home pay increase by over $500 a month this year. I'm not spending a penny more, yet we're not saving any more money than we were before. Discussions about this are a waste of time. And when I look through my bank statements, I just find an extra $30-$50 being spent at the grocery store, more trips to Starbucks, extra on Amazon, more trips to places like Ikea to buy more stuff that we don't need. Sometimes it's more stuff for the kids, but they don't need any more toys, and certainly don't need a toy every other visit to the grocery store. 

In fact much of this speaks to huge fundamental differences in our core beliefs and what's important for us. I feel we're doing really well and have enough, indeed more than most people. For my wife, her energy is too focused on how we improve our home, buy more things for it, do more renovations. 

And all these constant home projects means the home gets more priority than the kids or me. 

So, things have been pretty calm the last couple of weeks, but I've come to the realization that I just don't want to live this way anymore. I'm not happy with it, and I don't think she's going to fundamentally change her ways and her beliefs about what's important in life. I don't think she'll stop spending $5-$10 for each dollar I spend, and I don't think she'll ever balance things up so that she doesn't get 4 hours of downtime (weekends and evenings) for every one hour I get. I think about the few things that I like doing (exercise, watching 1-2 hours of sport a week) and how difficult / impossible she's made these things for me. I'm not sure how / when I became so spineless as to let all this happen. 

Going to be hard financially if/when I need to find another place, but I think I'll be a happier person and be a happier parent to my kids.


----------



## *Deidre*

BetrayedDad said:


> Want to know what's the norm OP? Stay at home parents that SUCK at the job.
> 
> Your wife is one of them. She's lazy and checked out. I agree with the other poster who said it seems the kid's rule the roost. I get that vibe too though that's what happens when you put in bare minimum effort. Being a SAHM is a JOB. More important than any other. If she can't handle the job put the kids in daycare and tell her to get a job to pay for it. She has no appreciation for what you bring to the table, she seems very self centered too. 300-500 texts a day?!? About what? Candy crush? Some crap on a soap? NO ONE could do their job properly with THAT much distraction. Then you walk in the door and she just unloads on you. Piece a work this one is. You need to man up OP and put this pathetic woman in her place. Start setting serious expectations or start shopping for divorce attorneys.


This. 

I could see if you both had 6 kids or something and she was homeschooling them all etc. But, that's not the case at all.

Not that she's ''pathetic'', but she too sounds unhappy, but sadly content to live as a roommate. I'd not back down with your feelings, OP. I'd stress the importance of counseling and how to become better connected. Hope things get better.


----------



## Left arm optimistic

*Deidre* said:


> This.
> 
> I could see if you both had 6 kids or something and she was homeschooling them all etc. But, that's not the case at all.
> 
> Not that she's ''pathetic'', but she too sounds unhappy, but sadly content to live as a roommate. I'd not back down with your feelings, OP. I'd stress the importance of counseling and how to become better connected. Hope things get better.


I don't think she's pathetic, but she's obviously been unhappy as a SAHM. But it was her choice. When she used to work full time, she'd cry about how much she hated working and wanted to be a SAHM. 

She struggled when we had just 1 little one, so she (and me too) should have seen this as a warning sign and she should have gone back to work after our second. She would have been happier, and our kids wouldn't have suffered. Quite possibly they would even be better off. They're super demanding, but I can't help but feel this is because she gave into them too much when they were little and also have been exposed to too much phone/tablet play, where instant gratification is the norm, unlike in the real world.

I used to work from home a couple days a week, and she'd so rarely actually be playing with the kids. She gets loads of toys and too often hopes they just entertain themselves while she's on her computer / phone or doing projects around the house. Our 2 yr old has twice hurt herself in the back yard, and I don't know how she did it because she was out there unsupervised (while I was at work).


----------



## BetrayedDad

Left arm optimistic said:


> I don't think she's pathetic


In my opinion, anyone who sends out 300-500 texts a day is pathetic but if that's how you feel then...



Left arm optimistic said:


> *Our 2 yr old* has twice hurt herself *in the back yard*, and I don't know how she did it because she was out there *unsupervised* (while I was at work).


Go ahead and swap out pathetic for irrefutably negligent if it makes you feel better.


----------



## Hicks

You and your wife got married for different reasons.
She wanted the social construct of a marriage you wanted the actual companionship of a woman. She's not a bad person.

In a functioning marriage, you learn about her, she learns about you, and our natural, selfish "wants" in life change such that both people are getting and giving to a certain degree and they are reasonably happy (never perfect).

All along the way normally people need to both assert for their own needs and learn about the other's needs and provide for them in such a way the other person gets fulfilled and they also ensure along the way that they are getting what they need.

So where is the breakdown in your marriage? The way I see it your wife has asserted for her needs but you never asserted for your needs. So as a result you are living a marriage where the wife's "model" for things is very dominant.

Your way of approaching asserting yourself is really bad (sorry to be harsh).

You need to STOP with long notes and long conversations about the marriage. Asserting is NOT convincing. These are two dramatically different concepts. You are trying to have your wants and needs met by convincing. Your wife is not convincing you, she is asserting. Do you see the difference? Does she initiate long conversations about how she needs you to get up with the kids in the middle of the night? No, she just makes it happen by making the world around her conform to her view of it.

You should have many "conversations" that are really short statements the begin with the words "I expect".

Here's how it should go if your wife is texting while you are out to dinner on a date.

"Wife, I expect that when we are spending quality time together, that you are not texting or using your phone unless it's something with the kids".

If she ignores it you ask for the check and take her home without coming unglued.

If your wife treats you terribly when you come home from work:

"Wife, I expect to be treated respectfully when I come home from work"

IF your wife constantly complains of stress: " Wife if this arrangement is not working for you, then we need to work together to find one that does. " (you need to make the world around you "just be" a place where people are expected to solve problems or if they make a certain choice they are not allowed to constantly complain about the results of their personal choices).

Hope this all makes sense and helps.


----------



## Anon1111

Left arm optimistic said:


> I have tried to have these calm, reasoned conversations, but they don't really work. In fact the last time I tried to have a calm conversation she just got angry, said "I'm done talking" (after 2 minutes) and then locked me out of our bedroom. And in the 2 minutes I was talking to her, her computer was on her lap and she was IMing her friend - like she'd rather IM her friend and tell her minute by minute all the "horrible" things I'm saying to her than try to address things.
> 
> A month or so ago, she asked me to sum up what was wrong in once sentence. I said things aren't as simple as that, but I could explain it in an email. She said she was sick of long emails from me. So it's like the lines for meaningful communication are shut.


I get where you're coming from and that is extremely frustrating. I've been where you're at.

I think you've got to look at this differently. 

You're no longer trying to achieve consensus. 

The purpose of this one final conversation (or email, note, etc) is to INFORM her (calmly) of what your boundaries are.

As in, "before I used to accept you doing X, Y, Z, now I'm INFORMING you that I will no longer tolerate this."

You don't need to hear her opinion on it. She doesn't need to agree. This is about what YOU will accept and what YOU will no longer tolerate.

This is so she will know that you are not behaving in an arbitrary manner when you start changing your actions.

The message will really be delivered by your change in actions, not what you say.

So it is absolutely critical that when you state what your new boundaries are, you back that up without exception. 



Left arm optimistic said:


> There's talk earlier in this thread about covert contracts and the like, and I understand this, but while I have managed to say in the past that I don't feel respected or appreciated, I don't feel I should need to set out very specific details of what it means to be respected and appreciated.
> 
> I shouldn't have to specifically say "please don't lock me out of our bedroom" or "please clean up the dog poop (where our kids play) after relentlessly begging us to get a dog and promising you'd clean up after it". I don't think I should need to say that in talking to me, when she refers to our bedroom or our car as "my bedroom" or "my car" it makes me feel like I'm not really a part of her life beyond provider and childcare.


you're right-- you shouldn't need to define what being respectful means.

and actually, you really don't. you don't think she KNOWS she's being a b-tch? OF COURSE she knows. She doesn't need you to explain it to her-- she's doing it!

She knows exactly what she's doing. And she keeps doing it because you let her. You tolerate it.

Yes, you don't like it, but you don't really do anything about it.

Here's a couple of examples of things that you could do:

Say calmly, "I'm tired of finding dog feces where our kids play. If you aren't able to take care of the dog, I'm going to need to find it a new home. I really don't want to do this, but I won't have our kids playing in an unsanitary environment any longer." Then BACK IT UP!

Another suggestion: "I think you are spending way too much time online and on your phone. Our kids need more attention from you. Your primary responsibility is caregiving and I don't think you are very focused on this judging by how many texts you are sending. I need you to reduce the amount of texts you are sending. If you can't do this, I'm going to need to look into cutting our cell phone and internet service. If you don't like this, you can feel free to get a job and pay for your own phone and internet." THEN BACK IT UP.




Left arm optimistic said:


> A few weeks ago, I came out of putting the kids to bed, and my wife was gone. I texted her to ask her where she was and why she went out without even leaving me a note. She said she'd just gone to pick up something someone had been giving away. I went to take a shower, got out found our car was back, but my wife was out again. This time she'd gone to walk the dog (which she does about once a week) but again, she didn't tell me where she was... I just think this is really odd behavior - and no, she's definitely not having an affair) - I just don't think she really cares.


This seems like it doesn't really matter to me. Get used to more distance between the two of you. Do you really want her around anyway? She treats you like crap.



Left arm optimistic said:


> Another example - our sofa was 8 yrs old. She wanted a new sofa. I wasn't completely against the idea but thought better to wait until all kids are potty trained. Finally, as with too many things (and I'm obviously to blame leting this happen), I got worn down by the constant bugging... yes, some time in the near future we can get a new sofa. Next thing (later that day) some people knock on the door and say they're here to pick up our sofa. So then obviously we need a new sofa right away. .


dude, you said "yes" to the sofa. why are you complaining when you agreed?

if you didn't want her to buy it you should have clearly said "no."

this tells me you are being a "nice guy" and not being clear about what your boundaries are.



Left arm optimistic said:


> We've had so many discussions about money, but nothing changes. Combination of new job and better benefits means I'm lucky enough to have had my take home pay increase by over $500 a month this year. I'm not spending a penny more, yet we're not saving any more money than we were before. Discussions about this are a waste of time. And when I look through my bank statements, I just find an extra $30-$50 being spent at the grocery store, more trips to Starbucks, extra on Amazon, more trips to places like Ikea to buy more stuff that we don't need. Sometimes it's more stuff for the kids, but they don't need any more toys, and certainly don't need a toy every other visit to the grocery store. .


take control of the budget. say, "Wife, you have $X per month that you can do whatever you want with. That's it. If you go over the budget, I am going to return it. If you keep making me return things, the next step is I cancel the credit cards.  If you don't like this, feel free to get a job."



Left arm optimistic said:


> In fact much of this speaks to huge fundamental differences in our core beliefs and what's important for us. I feel we're doing really well and have enough, indeed more than most people. For my wife, her energy is too focused on how we improve our home, buy more things for it, do more renovations.
> 
> And all these constant home projects means the home gets more priority than the kids or me.
> 
> So, things have been pretty calm the last couple of weeks, but I've come to the realization that I just don't want to live this way anymore. I'm not happy with it, and I don't think she's going to fundamentally change her ways and her beliefs about what's important in life. I don't think she'll stop spending $5-$10 for each dollar I spend, and I don't think she'll ever balance things up so that she doesn't get 4 hours of downtime (weekends and evenings) for every one hour I get. I think about the few things that I like doing (exercise, watching 1-2 hours of sport a week) and how difficult / impossible she's made these things for me. I'm not sure how / when I became so spineless as to let all this happen.
> 
> Going to be hard financially if/when I need to find another place, but I think I'll be a happier person and be a happier parent to my kids.


The impression I am getting is you let her walk all over you.

Establish firm boundaries and then back them up.

Don't let her wear you down. You wear her down. Let her flip out and throw temper tantrums. It doesn't matter. Your boundaries are real. Let her see that by your actions.

Or if you don't want to put in this work, just divorce.


----------



## Left arm optimistic

Hicks said:


> You and your wife got married for different reasons.
> *She wanted the social construct of a marriage you wanted the actual companionship of a woman. She's not a bad person.*
> 
> In a functioning marriage, you learn about her, she learns about you, and our natural, selfish "wants" in life change such that both people are getting and giving to a certain degree and they are reasonably happy (never perfect).
> 
> All along the way normally people need to both assert for their own needs and learn about the other's needs and provide for them in such a way the other person gets fulfilled and they also ensure along the way that they are getting what they need.
> 
> So where is the breakdown in your marriage? The way I see it your wife has asserted for her needs but you never asserted for your needs. So as a result you are living a marriage where the wife's "model" for things is very dominant.
> 
> Your way of approaching asserting yourself is really bad (sorry to be harsh).
> 
> You need to STOP with long notes and long conversations about the marriage. Asserting is NOT convincing. These are two dramatically different concepts. You are trying to have your wants and needs met by convincing. Your wife is not convincing you, she is asserting. Do you see the difference? Does she initiate long conversations about how she needs you to get up with the kids in the middle of the night? No, she just makes it happen by making the world around her conform to her view of it.
> 
> You should have many "conversations" that are really short statements the begin with the words "I expect".
> 
> Here's how it should go if your wife is texting while you are out to dinner on a date.
> 
> "Wife, I expect that when we are spending quality time together, that you are not texting or using your phone unless it's something with the kids".
> 
> If she ignores it you ask for the check and take her home without coming unglued.
> 
> If your wife treats you terribly when you come home from work:
> 
> "Wife, I expect to be treated respectfully when I come home from work"
> 
> IF your wife constantly complains of stress: " Wife if this arrangement is not working for you, then we need to work together to find one that does. " (you need to make the world around you "just be" a place where people are expected to solve problems or if they make a certain choice they are not allowed to constantly complain about the results of their personal choices).
> 
> Hope this all makes sense and helps.


Great post, particularly the bit in bold at the start, and this maybe is the fundamental difference. I don't think it really matters how or when or whether I communicate - we simply have very different beliefs around what a relationship means and what our respective roles are and should be. 

This goes for respecting the stated wants and wishes of each other as well as the sort of things you just do and don't do - without any need for conversation - when you're in love with someone.


----------



## Left arm optimistic

BetrayedDad said:


> In my opinion, anyone who sends out 300-500 texts a day is pathetic but if that's how you feel then...
> 
> 
> 
> Go ahead and swap out pathetic for irrefutably negligent if it makes you feel better.



I did say that the # of texts is both sent and received. She obviously can't control how many she receives, but yes, there's still a load of texts, albeit maybe somewhat fewer now than 6 months ago. 

She's not a bad person - she's just been overwhelmed even if I do think some of this has been brought onto herself. I have empathy enough to know that these things aren't done out of spite or malice, it's all part of a coping mechanism.


----------



## Adelais

It might be the norm for your home and for many other people, but it is not healthy for your children.

Your children are out of control because no one is supervising them. Your wife is on the computer, watching tv or on the phone texting. She should be taking the childen to the park, reading books to them, planning activities for them at home and outside the home, and then after that allowing them some free play time.

Since this has been going on for so long your wife is not going to change. She sees no need to change. 

In your case the children would be better off in a daycare, and your wife needs to get a job outside the home.


----------



## Left arm optimistic

Anon1111 said:


> I get where you're coming from and that is extremely frustrating. I've been where you're at.
> 
> I think you've got to look at this differently.
> 
> You're no longer trying to achieve consensus.
> 
> The purpose of this one final conversation (or email, note, etc) is to INFORM her (calmly) of what your boundaries are.
> 
> As in, "before I used to accept you doing X, Y, Z, now I'm INFORMING you that I will no longer tolerate this."
> 
> You don't need to hear her opinion on it. She doesn't need to agree. This is about what YOU will accept and what YOU will no longer tolerate.
> 
> This is so she will know that you are not behaving in an arbitrary manner when you start changing your actions.
> 
> The message will really be delivered by your change in actions, not what you say.
> 
> So it is absolutely critical that when you state what your new boundaries are, you back that up without exception.
> 
> 
> 
> you're right-- you shouldn't need to define what being respectful means.
> 
> and actually, you really don't. you don't think she KNOWS she's being a b-tch? OF COURSE she knows. She doesn't need you to explain it to her-- she's doing it!
> 
> She knows exactly what she's doing. And she keeps doing it because you let her. You tolerate it.
> 
> Yes, you don't like it, but you don't really do anything about it.
> 
> Here's a couple of examples of things that you could do:
> 
> Say calmly, "I'm tired of finding dog feces where our kids play. If you aren't able to take care of the dog, I'm going to need to find it a new home. I really don't want to do this, but I won't have our kids playing in an unsanitary environment any longer." Then BACK IT UP!
> 
> Another suggestion: "I think you are spending way too much time online and on your phone. Our kids need more attention from you. Your primary responsibility is caregiving and I don't think you are very focused on this judging by how many texts you are sending. I need you to reduce the amount of texts you are sending. If you can't do this, I'm going to need to look into cutting our cell phone and internet service. If you don't like this, you can feel free to get a job and pay for your own phone and internet." THEN BACK IT UP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This seems like it doesn't really matter to me. Get used to more distance between the two of you. Do you really want her around anyway? She treats you like crap.
> 
> 
> 
> dude, you said "yes" to the sofa. why are you complaining when you agreed?
> 
> if you didn't want her to buy it you should have clearly said "no."
> 
> this tells me you are being a "nice guy" and not being clear about what your boundaries are.
> 
> 
> 
> take control of the budget. say, "Wife, you have $X per month that you can do whatever you want with. That's it. If you go over the budget, I am going to return it. If you keep making me return things, the next step is I cancel the credit cards. If you don't like this, feel free to get a job."
> 
> 
> 
> The impression I am getting is you let her walk all over you.
> 
> Establish firm boundaries and then back them up.
> 
> Don't let her wear you down. You wear her down. Let her flip out and throw temper tantrums. It doesn't matter. Your boundaries are real. Let her see that by your actions.
> 
> Or if you don't want to put in this work, just divorce.



You make a lot of good points, but while I still let my self get worn down (like with the sofa), much of the above, I've done already. And I am just tired of it - and tired of being worn down. 

And you're right - when she's not around, I don't miss her (I still thought it odd behavior though!)

You mentioned whether I want to put the work in. But I feel that this is what I've been doing for months. So, I stop and pause, and think. Do I really want to be with someone where I have to do and say the above? I certainly don't think that this is part of a normal and healthy relationship. My siblings haven't had to have those conversations with their spouses.

Really, deep down, I know what I need to do. I just need to make sure our kids are ok, and figure out how we'll finance things. My family don't dislike my wife, but they weren't surprised when I told them what's going on.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Left arm optimistic said:


> I have empathy enough to know that these things aren't done out of spite or malice, it's all part of a coping mechanism.


Empathy is fine to a point but you need to stop making excuses for her and start holding her accountable. And an important part of accountability is repercussions up to and including considering divorce. You treat her like a child not an adult. This is why your marriage is a disaster. Do you not see that? She's an adult, start holding her to a higher standard. Start making her ACCOUNTABLE.


----------



## Anon1111

Left arm optimistic said:


> You make a lot of good points, but while I still let my self get worn down (like with the sofa), much of the above, I've done already. And I am just tired of it - and tired of being worn down.


I understand that you feel like you shouldn't have to do all of this. It would be great if you married someone who is naturally more respectful.

Unfortunately, you are where you are. Divorce might very well be your best option. It's tough to turn these situations around. 

You might do everything perfectly and she still acts this way. You should accept that this is a real possibility. Really accept it. This will have the effect of disconnecting your actions from her behavior. 

If you can disconnect your actions from her behavior, it won't be so exhausting. Assume she will behave childishly and then when she does, you won't be sad or disappointed. 

Then you will never get worn down. Getting worn down is emotional exhaustion. Emotional exhaustion comes from failed expectations. You no longer expect anything from her.

This is not PC, but do you expect anything from a young child or a dog? No, you just establish a rule and enforce it without exception. You don't get mad when the child breaks the rule because that's what children do. Eventually, if you are totally consistent, the child will adapt to the rule.

You are in this exact position now with your wife. She is acting like a child so you should treat her like one. You obviously don't need to tell her this-- just do it. 

No exceptions, no anger when she breaks the rule, the rule always stands, calmly enforce it at all times. 



Left arm optimistic said:


> And you're right - when she's not around, I don't miss her (I still thought it odd behavior though!).


this is good. you don't need her. if she gets mad at you for enforcing boundaries, it is her problem. detach.



Left arm optimistic said:


> You mentioned whether I want to put the work in. But I feel that this is what I've been doing for months. So, I stop and pause, and think. Do I really want to be with someone where I have to do and say the above? I certainly don't think that this is part of a normal and healthy relationship. My siblings haven't had to have those conversations with their spouses.
> 
> Really, deep down, I know what I need to do. I just need to make sure our kids are ok, and figure out how we'll finance things. My family don't dislike my wife, but they weren't surprised when I told them what's going on.


again, it's not normal or healthy and she probably sucks as a wife.

but you are not perfect here. in some ways, you're like a dog owner who is lax with his dog and then blames the dog for not being trained.

it would be cool if she was smart/nice enough to figure it out on her own but unfortunately you didn't marry that type of woman.

you might still have an OK relationship with her, but you will need to really adjust your own approach, be 100% consistent (every time you break consistency you go back to zero) and detach from her emotionally (you emotional investment in what she "should" do still seems way too high).

you might not think that type of relationship is worth it and if so, I wouldn't blame you.

the upside here is even if you determine it's not ultimately worth it, you will develop some skills by doing this that will spill over into your other relationships.


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## Anon1111

BetrayedDad said:


> Empathy is fine to a point but you need to stop making excuses for her and start holding her accountable. And an important part of accountability is repercussions up to and including considering divorce. You treat her like a child not an adult. This is why your marriage is a disaster. Do you not see that? She's an adult, start holding her to a higher standard. Start making her ACCOUNTABLE.


I think there's a difference between blaming her / insisting that she must behave a certain way and simply saying, this is what _I_ will and won't tolerate.

The latter approach eliminates the contest of wills aspect to the conflict and acknowledges that you really can't make her do anything.

You're just saying, this is my personal boundary, you can do whatever you want, but I enforce this line.

She can't ultimately cross the line unless you let her, so if you let her, it's really your fault.

If you can successfully define these lines and enforce them, then it becomes a much less emotional conflict.


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## Hicks

Left arm optimistic said:


> Great post, particularly the bit in bold at the start, and this maybe is the fundamental difference. I don't think it really matters how or when or whether I communicate - we simply have very different beliefs around what a relationship means and what our respective roles are and should be.
> 
> *This will be true for any one you marry.*
> 
> This goes for respecting the stated wants and wishes of each other as well as the sort of things you just do and don't do - without any need for conversation - when you're in love with someone.


Marriage doesnt work the way you are dreaming it works. Married people are not in love with each other. They love each other on purpose.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. 

Your marriage may be beyond fixing but if you don't learn to assert yourself in the manner described in the above by myself and anon111 you will wind up in the same place with the next woman.

Your situation requires way more assertiveness because you let it go for so long. If you have a functioning marriage you are not constantly in this mode.

My suggestion, is TRY these things on your current wife. Even if it's not with the goal of staying married to her, but the goal of learning about what works and what does not work in maritial relationships. What do you have to lose?


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## Anon1111

Hicks said:


> My suggestion, is TRY these things on your current wife. Even if it's not with the goal of staying married to her, but the goal of learning about what works and what does not work in maritial relationships. What do you have to lose?


this is a very good call.

look at it like learning to ride a bike. assume you will fall now and get scraped up, so when this happens, you won't be surprised. it's just what it takes to learn to ride a bike.

give yourself 6 months where you hold yourself to 100% consistency.

every time you fall off the bike, don't blame the bike. just get up and get back on it.

soon this will become automatic and won't feel like a struggle.

at the end of the period, you may decide this bike sucks and even if you can ride it OK, you'd like something better.


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## Adelais

Here is a link to the free pdf download for No More Mr. Nice Guy, by Robert Glover.

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## Left arm optimistic

Anon1111 said:


> I understand that you feel like you shouldn't have to do all of this. It would be great if you married someone who is naturally more respectful.
> 
> Unfortunately, you are where you are. Divorce might very well be your best option. It's tough to turn these situations around.
> 
> You might do everything perfectly and she still acts this way. You should accept that this is a real possibility. Really accept it. This will have the effect of disconnecting your actions from her behavior.
> 
> If you can disconnect your actions from her behavior, it won't be so exhausting. Assume she will behave childishly and then when she does, you won't be sad or disappointed.
> 
> Then you will never get worn down. Getting worn down is emotional exhaustion. Emotional exhaustion comes from failed expectations. You no longer expect anything from her.
> 
> This is not PC, but do you expect anything from a young child or a dog? No, you just establish a rule and enforce it without exception. You don't get mad when the child breaks the rule because that's what children do. Eventually, if you are totally consistent, the child will adapt to the rule.
> 
> You are in this exact position now with your wife. She is acting like a child so you should treat her like one. You obviously don't need to tell her this-- just do it.
> 
> No exceptions, no anger when she breaks the rule, the rule always stands, calmly enforce it at all times. 
> 
> 
> 
> this is good. you don't need her. if she gets mad at you for enforcing boundaries, it is her problem. detach.
> 
> 
> 
> again, it's not normal or healthy and she probably sucks as a wife.
> 
> but you are not perfect here. in some ways, you're like a dog owner who is lax with his dog and then blames the dog for not being trained.
> 
> it would be cool if she was smart/nice enough to figure it out on her own but unfortunately you didn't marry that type of woman.
> 
> you might still have an OK relationship with her, but you will need to really adjust your own approach, be 100% consistent (every time you break consistency you go back to zero) and detach from her emotionally (you emotional investment in what she "should" do still seems way too high).
> 
> you might not think that type of relationship is worth it and if so, I wouldn't blame you.
> 
> the upside here is even if you determine it's not ultimately worth it, you will develop some skills by doing this that will spill over into your other relationships.


Thank you very very much for your well thought out responses. Having this **** spinning round in my head all the time can be exhausting in itself! Actually, lately, partly because my expectations are so low these days, I'm not getting nearly as pissed off or upset as I used to. 

And you're right - I"ve not been perfect. I think I gradually ceded more and more ground over the (10) years until it became the norm for big and small things alike. 

I'm obviously partly responsible for letting myself fall for, marry and have kids with someone who I'm not compatible with. But my kids are the best things in my life, so I'm just going to go forward and do my best that they still have the good happy life they deserve. More likely this will happen with me and my wife separated, and me being a happier person.


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## Anon1111

Left arm optimistic said:


> I'm obviously partly responsible for letting myself fall for, marry and have kids with someone who I'm not compatible with. But my kids are the best things in my life, so I'm just going to go forward and do my best that they still have the good happy life they deserve. More likely this will happen with me and my wife separated, and me being a happier person.


You might be surprised that when 

-- you truly become comfortable with the idea of walking away

-- you can be totally firm (without anger) on what your boundaries are (because you're willing to walk if they're not met)

and

-- you stop expecting your wife to be better than what she is and just start dealing with her AS she REALLY is

...your household becomes remarkably calmer and actually tolerable.

Not the best ever, but good enough.

It's sort of like the concept of the reason for having a gun is never having to use it.


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