# Interesting article.



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I have said before WS are like parasites to the BS hosts in many cases. Interesting article, really a book that backs it up.

I think it may also explain why these kind of stories keep showing up over and over, and the strange passiveness to repeated abuse that so many BS have especially the men.

Here is another good article about being a parent in this situation. Same author.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@sokillme,

The "book" link was really more of an ad for the dude's book and I didn't get much from it that was constructive, but the I think the article has potential as a way of explaining a lot of relationships that end up in infidelity. Very often one of the two spouses is essentially a narcissist or has pretty strong N tendencies...and the other of the two spouses is co-dependent or is too enmeshed to be healthy. 

This is why I think the key to reconciliation is not "ending the affair" alone, but also fundamental change in both spouses really. The cheaters are clearly the ones tending to narcissism, and the loyals would be the ones tending to co-dependency. Thus, cheaters need to not only stop committing adultery, but also learn empathy, learn to focus on others, and learn to protect the marriage from their own weaknesses. Likewise the loyal would need to be willing to forgive (and that is a GIFT, not an expectation), but also learn self-sufficiency, learn interdependence, and learn to protect the marriage from their weaknesses. 

You can see why it's such a low percentage of success! The vast majority of cheaters are unwilling to admit they were even wrong! And many loyals ... well I'll be roasted for this but many are too busy pointing fingers to even consider learning and growing. So no change...and no reconciliation. Recovery? Well eventually in a way. But if you don't change, then chances are enormous you'll find the same type of person and do it all again.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)




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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> @sokillme,
> 
> Very often one of the two spouses is essentially a narcissist or has pretty strong N tendencies...and the other of the two spouses is co-dependent or is too enmeshed to be healthy.


Extremely few narcissists exist. Overgeneralizing in this fashion is a fundamental attribution error, compounding (not solving) problems. According to the DSM-V, 0 to 6.2 percent of the population are narcissistic (NPD) (p.645, DSM-V). Compare that to the rates of cheating...... non-sequitur.

This confuses the fact that the unfaithful could be the co-dependent one. Think about attachment theory. The main thing one needs to understand about NPD is the self-absorption and grandiosity.



> The cheaters are clearly the ones tending to narcissism, and the loyals would be the ones tending to co-dependency.


Someone that "lacks empathy" is not a narcissist. There are 9 diagnostic criteria to evaluate for NPD. Empathy can erode for many reasons outside of narcissism. It is human to tend to disregard others that we don't really care for. This occurs in and outside of romantic relationships. Additionally, those that do harm DO use empathy (often) to add poison to their swords. Empathy is an understanding of another's emotional plight; it does not involve feeling *for* another. Some affairs are characteristic of a partner trying to level the power balance by finding an affair partner. This is a manipulative use of pain to create future balance.



> Thus, cheaters need to not only stop committing adultery, but also learn empathy, learn to focus on others, and learn to protect the marriage from their own weaknesses.
> 
> You can see why it's such a low percentage of success! The vast majority of cheaters are unwilling to admit they were even wrong!


Reconciliation (post-affair) occurs for the majority of relationships.

The vast majority are unwilling to admit they were wrong? I would love to see what supports your claim.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Extremely few narcissists exist. Overgeneralizing in this fashion is a fundamental attribution error, compounding (not solving) problems. According to the DSM-V, 0 to 6.2 percent of the population are narcissistic (NPD) (p.645, DSM-V). Compare that to the rates of cheating...... non-sequitur.
> 
> This confuses the fact that the unfaithful could be the co-dependent one. Think about attachment theory. The main thing one needs to understand about NPD is the self-absorption and grandiosity.
> 
> ...


QFT. Not everyone who behaves selfishly is a narcissist.


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> @sokillme,
> 
> The "book" link was really more of an ad for the dude's book and I didn't get much from it that was constructive, but the I think the article has potential as a way of explaining a lot of relationships that end up in infidelity. Very often one of the two spouses is essentially a narcissist or has pretty strong N tendencies...and the other of the two spouses is co-dependent or is too enmeshed to be healthy.
> 
> ...



Well said.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> Likewise the loyal would need to be willing to forgive (and that is a GIFT, not an expectation), but also learn self-sufficiency, learn interdependence, and learn to protect the marriage from their weaknesses.


I agree. 

And to build on your point, the BEST way a "loyal" can break the cycle of codependency is to DUMP THE CHEATER permanently and find another "loyal" who actually has some morals and by extension control over who has access to their genitalia.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Destructive co-dependence is a big deal and problem with many marriages.

David Schnarch talks about marital sadism, where one spouse loves to emotionally torture or hurt the other.

In Glover's NMMNG, he talks about men who constantly need to be validated by a woman.

There are lots of self help books out there that advice men to get a life and become more integrated and independent.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I have to say reading a lot of these threads I see the pattern.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

me too


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> My response was to affair care.


Yeah I see that, I saw my name in the title and thought is was to me, changed it.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Extremely few narcissists exist. Overgeneralizing in this fashion is a fundamental attribution error, compounding (not solving) problems. According to the DSM-V, 0 to 6.2 percent of the population are narcissistic (NPD) (p.645, DSM-V). Compare that to the rates of cheating...... non-sequitur.


And this would be why I said "one of the two spouses is N or shows narcissistic tendencies." But rather than engage in "I'll show you my links and research and you'll show me yours," let's just say this: diagnosed NPD is very low, partly because no true Narcissist would go to a p-doc--they don't think they need therapy! LOL But even getting beyond that, true NPD is very, very different from narcissistic tendencies, and tendencies are very, very different from healthy self awareness and self love. 

I do not think that every disloyal spouse is diagnosable NPD--that would be foolishness. But I do think most disloyals do cross the line of healthy self-interest into unhealthy self-centeredness no matter the cost to others, and very often (not always) even cross into tendencies and behaviors that could be on the N spectrum. 



> This confuses the fact that the unfaithful could be the co-dependent one. Think about attachment theory. The main thing one needs to understand about NPD is the self-absorption and grandiosity.


How is the relevant to @sokillme's posting of the article about co-dependency? The article about the book was suggesting that maybe co-dependent people are like magnets for N-spectrum people, and that's why those relationships tear apart. The second link talked about the fact that even if co-dependent people do attract N-spectrum people, that doesn't relieve them of their duty to protect their children. So I commented to those links. The book link didn't really tell me much, but the second one was much clearer, AND I agree with it. 

I think a vast majority of the problems today with most relationships (marriage, and parent-child) are that people are not willing to be PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE. They want to blame someone else for what they chose to do, and they want to experience no consequences for their choices. 

And yep--either partner "could" be the N-spectrum partner. We can all fairly easily see self-centered grandiosity in waywards--they are "above the law" and shouldn't have to endure consequences! But it *can* be the other way around--maybe the betrayed as a narcissistic all along and was an ass behind closed doors. It's possible.

I'm not sure what you are saying about how attachment theory relates to the theory of co-dependents attracting narcissists, but rather than guess, I will allow you to explain your idea. 



> Someone that "lacks empathy" is not a narcissist. There are 9 diagnostic criteria to evaluate for NPD. Empathy can erode for many reasons outside of narcissism. It is human to tend to disregard others that we don't really care for. This occurs in and outside of romantic relationships. Additionally, those that do harm DO use empathy (often) to add poison to their swords. Empathy is an understanding of another's emotional plight; it does not involve feeling *for* another. Some affairs are characteristic of a partner trying to level the power balance by finding an affair partner. This is a manipulative use of pain to create future balance.


Okay who's talking about empathy? The articles are about the possibility that maybe co-dependent people attract narcissists like a magnet. I commented that cheaters were the partner that TENDED toward N-spectrum or were more often the self-absorbed, grandiose partner, and that the betrayed TENDED to more often be the co-dependent partner. Not always. 

But the lesson isn't a mathematical prediction of who's N-spectrum, who's co-dependent, and who's to blame for infidelity. You want to know who's responsible for infidelity? The person who chooses to be unfaithful!! The whole topic of this thread (I think) is that we are responsible for ourselves and defending our children! Now if you got a different message, how about if we discuss the article? 



> Reconciliation (post-affair) occurs for the majority of relationships.
> 
> The vast majority are unwilling to admit they were wrong? I would love to see what supports your claim.


How many disloyal spouses do you see on this forum who unequivocally admit they were wrong, and it was not "something their spouse made them do"? How may loyal spouses do you see on this forum who admit they were wrong in the way they acted in their marriage pre-affair (and just to clarify, not that the adultery was in any way something that "made" their spouse cheat, but it is something that might have to be considered to become a better spouse for the future...whoever they are with)? It is very rare for either spouse to look at themselves--human nature wants to defend yourself and blame someone else. 

If you know of spouses committing adultery who immediately accept personal responsibility and do not blame their spouse, good for you!


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> And this would be why I said "one of the two spouses is N or shows narcissistic tendencies." But rather than engage in "I'll show you my links and research and you'll show me yours," let's just say this: diagnosed NPD is very low, partly because no true Narcissist would go to a p-doc--they don't think they need therapy! LOL But even getting beyond that, true NPD is very, very different from narcissistic tendencies, and tendencies are very, very different from healthy self awareness and self love.


-You said "strong narcissistic tendencies". That claim makes it sound like....... diagnosable NPD.

-Secondly, I didn't say that diagnosed NPD is low. I stated that the prevalence of NPD is low.

-Third, you have my source The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

-Fourth, you present a possible false dilemma. It doesn't matter if Narcissistic traits are "very" different from healthy XYZ. There are many personality disorders and the vast majority of us exhibit traits from one, several, or all of them. The "strong tendencies" you are referring to seem to concern only 1 of the 9 critera for NPD, although I presume you would expand that to 2 or 3 if you knew them.



> I do not think that every disloyal spouse is diagnosable NPD--that would be foolishness. But I do think most disloyals do cross the line of healthy self-interest into unhealthy self-centeredness no matter the cost to others, and very often (not always) even cross into tendencies and behaviors that could be on the N spectrum.


Lack of empathy is *a* trait of Narcissism, but failing to show empathy in a particular instance doesn't make it fundamental That doesn't mean we say to everyone who fails to show empathy that they are exhibiting narcissistic traits. The hallmarks of Narcissism are much more concerned with a supreme self-image.



> And yep--either partner "could" be the N-spectrum partner. We can all fairly easily see self-centered grandiosity in waywards--they are "above the law" and shouldn't have to endure consequences! But it *can* be the other way around--maybe the betrayed as a narcissistic all along and was an ass behind closed doors. It's possible.
> 
> I'm not sure what you are saying about how attachment theory relates to the theory of co-dependents attracting narcissists, but rather than guess, I will allow you to explain your idea.


Anxious attachment describes a person who relies heavily upon their attachment figure. This is derived from childhood but romantic partners do become the attachment figure. This person does much to maintain harmony, giving themselves up or by resorting to manipulative actions to get what they need: safety and security. The vacuum can lead to the need to fill the space with emotional and physical energy from somewhere else.

Attachments are a lot more descriptive than "dependency". (I am not knocking dependency)






> Okay who's talking about empathy?


You.



> The articles are about the possibility that maybe co-dependent people attract narcissists like a magnet. I commented that cheaters were the partner that TENDED toward N-spectrum or were more often the self-absorbed, grandiose partner, and that the betrayed TENDED to more often be the co-dependent partner. Not always.
> 
> But the lesson isn't a mathematical prediction of who's N-spectrum, who's co-dependent, and who's to blame for infidelity. You want to know who's responsible for infidelity? The person who chooses to be unfaithful!! The whole topic of this thread (I think) is that we are responsible for ourselves and defending our children! Now if you got a different message, how about if we discuss the article?


The links concern co-dependency and narcissism. They don't talk about which spouse (unfaithful/faithful) is the narcissist or co-dependent. I urge caution in looking at this magnetic bond and ascribing it to the common relationship that suffered an affair.





> How many disloyal spouses do you see on this forum who unequivocally admit they were wrong, and it was not "something their spouse made them do"?


The vast majority that come here are the ones that were betrayed. I don't think we have access to the data you are referencing.


> How may loyal spouses do you see on this forum who admit they were wrong in the way they acted in their marriage pre-affair (and just to clarify, not that the adultery was in any way something that "made" their spouse cheat, but it is something that might have to be considered to become a better spouse for the future...whoever they are with)? It is very rare for either spouse to look at themselves--human nature wants to defend yourself and blame someone else.


Keep in mind that I was asking you to substantiate your claim. I asked the question because I don't know how you arrived at your conclusion that 

"You can see why it's such a low percentage of success! 
The vast majority of cheaters are unwilling to admit they were even wrong!"



> If you know of spouses committing adultery who immediately accept personal responsibility and do not blame their spouse, good for you!


Accepting or not accepting immediate blame has nothing to do with narcissism. It isn't a "strong narcissistic tendency"; it is normal human behavior.

The point of all of this?

Very few are actually narcissistic, so let's be very careful in labeling someone. From reading the links and using a bit of imagination, I presume that most of us can learn from this type of destructive bond in the common relationship. Some Psychologists say that we all have a little Narcissist inside of us. But the vast majority of the time, we fall outside of that overall category. What we can do is learn how to avoid this dysfunctional bond and establish and maintain an interdependent one.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> How may loyal spouses do you see on this forum who admit they were wrong in the way they acted in their marriage pre-affair (and just to clarify, not that the adultery was in any way something that "made" their spouse cheat, but it is something that might have to be considered to become a better spouse for the future...whoever they are with)? It is very rare for either spouse to look at themselves--human nature wants to defend yourself and blame someone else.


See I find this part interesting and something I have been thinking about as I have been trying to understand and read about this. Now this doesn't apply to the one night stand type of affair. However I think a lot of the "wrong" as you call it, in the way the BS acted is that they are basically meek and abused for a long time and never stood up for themselves. They think that loves means never holding their WS accountable. Overlooking clear cruelty because of love. Inevitably when you read these long threads, especially the ones where the affair is so disrespectful and abusive, eventually you get to the post where the truth comes out that this kind of disrespect was pretty much always present. The WS always pretty much dominated the relationship and the abuse and disrespect has been a recurring pattern It's just the level has just been pushed further and further like the frog in the boiling water. It finally gets to a point where the BS can no longer excuse it, lots of times because it is so blatant. 

A posters finds out his wife is cheating on him and he is shocked when she immediately goes and spends a week with her boyfriend. Later on we find out that she has been going out with her girlfriend like a single women for years, and he never said a word. Wife finds out that her husband is cheating on her while pregnant and she is shocked. But we end up finding out that the guy is a flirt and for there whole marriage and has been hiding things and gasslight, sizing up his options forever. How many men whose wives dominate them and the marriage end up being cheated on. This seems to be a common dynamic. Something is already very wrong if you let your spouse dominate you. 

Another common pattern is that the WS are shocked when the BS puts his foot down. Is it possible this is because this is the first time in their marriage they have ever stood up for themselves. I mean you have to think your BS is a pushover if you could abuse them so and then turn around in a month or two later and ask for them back. I mean a normal common reaction to asking to come back would be to spit in their face (figuratively or literally). Yet these people all ask for it. It's illogical, UNLESS you have already established a recurring pattern where you can abuse your spouse and they end up forgiving you. Maybe not with something so terrible but with lots of things. And it proves to be right because so many BS are so quick to R without even thinking about how they have been treated and what kind of person they are going to spend their life with. Maybe that person hasn't really changed much at all, maybe it's just the blatantness that is the problem. The BS is pretty much content to be treated poorly before, they are content to go back to that dynamic. This is just one more indignity for love. 

The type of person who goes to a message board and posts about it, is not going to be your standard "you cheated on me, you are garbage and I am done with you" type of person. It is the rare case that someone chronicles this type of reaction on a message board, a breakup where there is no chance at R. That type of person doesn't need help with what to do. When they do post they are always admired and end up doing well. Also I don't think the kind of horrible things we read about happen much to people who are just going to move on because those type of people are well moved on before there is a chance to have it go this far. Particularly when the abuse is really blatant. 

If you just read the first few pages of these post, only the part when the BS finds out about the affair you would think that wives and husbands change on a dime. I no longer believe that though. I think it's just the BS perception of the marriage and their spouse that changes. Sadly I think most of these WS are terribly codependent and their spouses have always been abusers they just have gotten to the point of no return.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> @sokillme,
> 
> The "book" link was really more of an ad for the dude's book and I didn't get much from it that was constructive, but the I think the article has potential as a way of explaining a lot of relationships that end up in infidelity. Very often one of the two spouses is essentially a narcissist or has pretty strong N tendencies...and the other of the two spouses is co-dependent or is too enmeshed to be healthy.
> 
> ...


How anyone could possibly find fault with this is totally beyond me. Well said, AC.


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## Drumstick (Mar 18, 2017)

Gotta agree with you Hope1964. Sometimes people miss the forest for the trees, especially when they are integrating details into a more wholistic understanding.


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