# Signs of Cheating Part Two



## wxman3441

Ok folks, I am getting prepared to be yelled at. This is a follow up to this post from several weeks back:

https://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/435671-signs-cheating.html

So things cooled down but since we haven't been intimate in weeks, I still had a suspicion something was up. I did something that I know was wrong - I went through her phone and found several texts that jumped out. They all occurred around June 10 - at a time where our relationship was seemingly in a better state than it is now (and only a month after I went back to my hometown to spread my mom's ashes after her passing in the Spring). I attached two of the texts. The name has been erased. Basically the guy I had concerns about before came up in the texts. My partner's texts are on the right side of the screen. Seems like my partner did something inappropriate; maybe not hook up with him but mentioned something along the lines of having feelings for him? I found another text (not attached) to someone else around the same time saying something along the lines "doing something stupid".

Note this was before the incidents which I discussed in the above post. So the question is: Is is clear now something happened? Did they go all the way? We are in counseling now but I feel I should bring this up and make her confess but telling her I went through her phone wont go well.

I am an idiot, I know.


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## Andy1001

Will you stop being so ****ing weak and actually do something. 
She is/was cheating and you know it but you’re looking for technicalities to excuse her behavior. 
Ask yourself this. Am I prepared to share my girlfriend?
The answer is yes or no.


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## Numb26

wxman3441 said:


> Ok folks, I am getting prepared to be yelled at. This is a follow up to this post from several weeks back:
> 
> https://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/435671-signs-cheating.html
> 
> So things cooled down but since we haven't been intimate in weeks, I still had a suspicion something was up. I did something that I know was wrong - I went through her phone and found several texts that jumped out. They all occurred around June 10 - at a time where our relationship was seemingly in a better state than it is now (and only a month after I went back to my hometown to spread my mom's ashes after her passing in the Spring). I attached two of the texts. The name has been erased. Basically the guy I had concerns about before came up in the texts. My partner's texts are on the right side of the screen. Seems like my partner did something inappropriate; maybe not hook up with him but mentioned something along the lines of having feelings for him? I found another text (not attached) to someone else around the same time saying something along the lines "doing something stupid".
> 
> Note this was before the incidents which I discussed in the above post. So the question is: Is is clear now something happened? Did they go all the way? We are in counseling now but I feel I should bring this up and make her confess but telling her I went through her phone wont go well.
> 
> I am an idiot, I know.


For God's sake, grow a pair and do what needs to be done! You can live your life being her obedient lap dog or you can be a man. You know what she has done and you know what you have to do, so do it. Trust me, you will feel so much better about yourself


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## BruceBanner

You must enjoy the drama because it doesn't seem like you've done much of anything.


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## aine

She has feelings for another guy, confront her and kick her to the kerb


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## Tasorundo

How can you read those texts and not demand answers? I do not understand how it is possible. Are you that afraid of upsetting the cart that you cannot act?

She is clearly pointing that something happened, saying she has feelings, and depending on how you read it, this is something that happens often or at least before. She talks about her feelings passing 'and they always do'. Feelings for this same guy all the time? Multiple guys?

I am not saying she is cheating all over the place, but there is something behind that statement that also demands answers. If you have had a bad feeling about this guy before now, then it is most likely something that has been going on with him for a while, blowing hot and cold over the years. It also, unfortunately, makes it highly likely that she has slept with him before, and will again when feelings come back.


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## aquarius1

for the first time I’m going to ask someone to please close a thread.

Crikey I’m getting dizzy from circling this same drain over and over and over and over and over.


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## arbitrator

*Respect yourself and throw her a$$ out!

Yes, she has cheated and is obviously still cheating!

End this charade of a relationship!!*


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## nekonamida

Tell her you know about OM. Don't say anything more. Let her do the talking and explaining.

At minimum, something happened between them. Maybe he even rejected her after she made a move on him. Maybe they hooked up but she didn't want to leave you for him. It's too vague to figure out what happened other than something did happen.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Best course of action; prepare yourself emotionally and financially for best and worst outcomes. 

Right now you may think the choice of what may happen, but that can be ripped from your hands in an instant. 

The choice of what's going to happen - she may take that out of your hands completely. 

Start protecting yourself.


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## Yeswecan

Proof is in the pudding. Or text message as it were. Pack her things. She can go sort her feelings about OM at OM house. Good riddance.


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## Robbie1234

Text her this message. "What is going on between you and om. If you lie once we are finished. I know more than you think". Then ignore her for a few hours.


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## dadstartingover

I think you're officially on to the next stage in all of this drama. Time to move on, my friend. It's tough... but you have to. 

Obligatory book promotion. I wrote this for guys JUST like you:

READ THIS


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## Marduk

There’s a reason you’re not actually doing anything but keep looking for advice.

What is that reason?


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## She'sStillGotIt

Marduk said:


> There’s a reason you’re not actually doing anything but keep looking for advice.
> 
> What is that reason?


So he can *stall* on actually DOING something that would require testicular fortitude.


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## Chaparral

I am not sure whats going on here. Sounds like she is encouraging a girlfriend to hook up with him but she also has feelings for him. Evidently some of her other friends know whats going on too. 

Are any of these other girls your friend too. An you talk to them? 

Not sure she has or hasn’t hooked up with him. 

I would just ask her to leave until she has figured her **** out 
and you're moving on without her being n the meantime. 

Time for shock and awe. Its the only thing that ever works. You have to be willing to lose a marriage in order to save it.


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## wxman3441

Chaparral said:


> I am not sure whats going on here. Sounds like she is encouraging a girlfriend to hook up with him but she also has feelings for him. Evidently some of her other friends know whats going on too.


The guy in question made a move on my partners friend and my partner seemed to take offense to that.

She admits to finding him attractive and flirting but she claims nothing else happened.


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## BruceBanner

wxman3441 said:


> The guy in question made a move on my partners friend and my partner seemed to take offense to that.
> 
> She admits to finding him attractive and flirting but she claims nothing else happened.


Why do you let your partner disrespect you so? Where is your self-respect?


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## Openminded

I'm not going to disagree with your assessment that you're an idiot. The question is what are you going to do about it?


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## Emerging Buddhist

What life has taught me is that the partner that cares the least holds the power until you balance that with the ability to let go of that which hurts you.

I hope you find your balance soon.


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## wxman3441

Came across the below beauty as well.

Look, I get what people are saying. This is not as easy as it seems. We own a house, been together for 6 years and I have been a step father to her child so it is a delicate situation and I am trying to gather my feelings. 

However, I just can't see how this is a case of her "feelings" just being attracted to him and casual flirting as she claims.


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## Marc878

Most will do anything to avoid a decision. You are making excuses which won't help you much.

Think about dealing with this when you have 15-20 years invested and or your own kids.

Sounds like currently you are just a placeholder living on hopium.


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## phillybeffandswiss

wxman3441 said:


> Look, I get what people are saying. This is not as easy as it seems. We own a house, been together for 6 years and I have been a step father to her child so it is a delicate situation and I am trying to gather my feelings..


No, if you "get what people are saying” you wouldn't be disrespecting those who have similar experienecs, by thinking yours is a "delicate situation' and different.

No one is telling you to rush, but respecting yourself has NOTHING to do with your examples.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Let me add, what history? You can't spin that as a positive. What was the response?


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## jlg07

Being together for 6 years obviously has NO meaning to HER -- she is saying that she is crazy about this guy --- WTF? How can you possibly interpret this any other way? You need to get control of YOUR life. You act as a step father, but have you adopter the child? I understand that it's hard to start detaching, but that is really what you need to do. you need to blow up her world over this if you stand a chance of her wanting to stay.


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## sunsetmist

In reality, what do you have to lose? Stop her now before it is too late or is it already? This is hard stuff!! 

Remind her of your boundaries. If you do not, who knows how often she will waver over the years. People who have wayward feelings must remove themselves from the situation.

If she is discussing her 'love life' with her friends, where does that put you? Does she run your marriage otherwise? Ask her if she wants an open marriage? But be prepared to leave if you do not agree. Do not yell, but be resolute. "I will not live with another man in our relationship." Do not allow her to gaslight, deny, accuse. You decide.


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## syhoybenden

What do you need? The town crier being led in by a marching band?

It is so bleeding obvious!

It is time to defecate or get off the porcelain appliance.


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## wxman3441

jlg07 said:


> Being together for 6 years obviously has NO meaning to HER -- she is saying that she is crazy about this guy --- WTF? How can you possibly interpret this any other way? You need to get control of YOUR life. You act as a step father, but have you adopter the child? I understand that it's hard to start detaching, but that is really what you need to do. you need to blow up her world over this if you stand a chance of her wanting to stay.


No I have not adopted the child. I care about the child but do not have a deep emotional connection with her. Her bio dad is well in the picture.


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## Marc878

Stay in limbo or get out. Only she could fix this you can't.

If you want a fairy tale ending buy a book or rent a movie.


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## Chaparral

"I think my partner may be cheating on me but I know she wont come clean. Any way to find out? For instance, last night, I was invited to a BBQ/Music festival then uninvited after she decided to go with a friend. She said she would be home in the late evening and ended up staying out until 4am, after hanging out with her friend, her friends bf and his brother which I think has a crush on my partner. These types of things seem to be happening more frequently. Thoughts?"

"What you are describing is called a **** test and I have no time for it. If she really desires someone else, ,even a little bit then I am done. I do not need to play games."


She has lied and denied and cut you off. 180 and move on. If she asks whats going on, tell her you care to much for her to keep her and ****** apart and you're moving on. The no sex means she doesn't find you attractive and/or she's saving it for someone else.

Did you bring all this up in counseling?


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## She'sStillGotIt

wxman3441 said:


> No I have not adopted the child. I care about the child but do not have a deep emotional connection with her. Her bio dad is well in the picture.


Why do you think _your_ situation is so much more 'delicate' than anyone else's? You don't even have kids with this woman and plenty of us DID have kids - and houses - and MANY more years together than just 6 when we chose to leave our cheaters. Your situation is no more delicate than anyone else's. In fact, *you're* in a better position to leave than a lot of us were.

I'm not sure what it is you're looking for us to to TELL you. Since you don't want to hear the overwhelming majority of opinions telling you to leave your lying wife, what exactly *IS* it you want to hear?


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## wxman3441

Chaparral said:


> "I think my partner may be cheating on me but I know she wont come clean. Any way to find out? For instance, last night, I was invited to a BBQ/Music festival then uninvited after she decided to go with a friend. She said she would be home in the late evening and ended up staying out until 4am, after hanging out with her friend, her friends bf and his brother which I think has a crush on my partner. These types of things seem to be happening more frequently. Thoughts?"
> 
> "What you are describing is called a **** test and I have no time for it. If she really desires someone else, ,even a little bit then I am done. I do not need to play games."
> 
> 
> She has lied and denied and cut you off. 180 and move on. If she asks whats going on, tell her you care to much for her to keep her and ****** apart and you're moving on. The no sex means she doesn't find you attractive and/or she's saving it for someone else.
> 
> Did you bring all this up in counseling?


This is new information that has not been shared in counseling yet. She may not want to see our current counselor anymore but she actually seem to tease the fact that it was going to be hard to fix us.


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## wxman3441

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Why do you think _your_ situation is so much more 'delicate' than anyone else's? You don't even have kids with this woman and plenty of us DID have kids - and houses - and MANY more years together than just 6 when we chose to leave our cheaters. Your situation is no more delicate than anyone else's. In fact, *you're* in a better position to leave than a lot of us were.
> 
> I'm not sure what it is you're looking for us to to TELL you. Since you don't want to hear the overwhelming majority of opinions telling you to leave your lying wife, what exactly *IS* it you want to hear?


I understand what you are saying. I wasn't suggesting my situation is more delicate than other, just delicate because a child's heart will be broken if I leave.


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## phillybeffandswiss

wxman3441 said:


> I understand what you are saying. I wasn't suggesting my situation is more delicate than other, just delicate because a child's heart will be broken if I leave.


Your wife should have thought about that before hanging around a dude she wants.

Again, in the text, what is the history you should know about?


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## wxman3441

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Your wife should have thought about that before hanging around a dude she wants.
> 
> Again, in the text, what is the history you should know about?


Sorry, the history between my partner and I or the history between her and him?


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## MattMatt

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Why do you think _your_ situation is so much more 'delicate' than anyone else's? You don't even have kids with this woman and plenty of us DID have kids - and houses - and MANY more years together than just 6 when we chose to leave our cheaters. Your situation is no more delicate than anyone else's. In fact, *you're* in a better position to leave than a lot of us were.
> 
> I'm not sure what it is you're looking for us to to TELL you. Since you don't want to hear the overwhelming majority of opinions telling you to leave your lying wife, what exactly *IS* it you want to hear?


Because it is his situation and he has bonded with her child and doesn't want to risk losing that relationship, the relationship with her or to lose their home?

But @wxman3441 you need to send her a message:-


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## wxman3441

MattMatt said:


> Because it is his situation and he has bonded with her child and doesn't want to risk losing that relationship, the relationship with her or to lose their home?
> 
> But @wxman3441 you need to send her a message:-


To be fair, while I care about the child, I do not feel a really deep connection with her. I would be sad if things ended but I could move on with my life. My partner may not want to leave because she has bad credit. Losing me would be us selling our house and she would have to go back to renting.


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## phillybeffandswiss

wxman3441 said:


> Sorry, the history between my partner and I or the history between her and him?


The text you posted says Basically “hold up now does ———— know about your history/relationship with”

What does that mean?

She’s crazy about someone else, only work and being busy, makes her ignore it. Also, she is comfortable enough to laugh about it with friends, that alone would be enough for me to say “bye bye.”

Why?

I know they are cherry picked messages, but there is ZERO mention of you.


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## jlg07

wxman3441 said:


> To be fair, while I care about the child, I do not feel a really deep connection with her. I would be sad if things ended but I could move on with my life. I certainly understand this, but you ending this is HER MOTHER'S fault, not yours. My partner may not want to leave because she has bad credit. Losing me would be us selling our house and she would have to go back to renting.


Boo Hoo too bad for her. SHE CAUSED THIS -- again, she said she wants this other guy. History, no history, etc. means nothing. She has blatantly stated she wants someone else, has mentioned that counseling "may not fix it" -- I agree, it won't because SHE DOESN'T want it to.
Do her a favor, set her free to pursue this other guy, and then YOU are free to find someone who cares about YOU and you not being stuck with a cheater. Call her on her sh*t and TELL HER it's over due to HER actions. Don't waste your time doing MC since she really doesn't want this relationship anymore.


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## Rob_1

On your opening statement you said that you were prepared to be yelled at; but you don't say that you are prepared to do anything or to follow any advice. It looks that way.
So I'll ask you this: as a man, as an individual, do you understand what self respect is? 
I don't think you do, because if you did you wouldn't be in this relationship from the very first disrespect of this nature by your wife toward you. 

You seem to be lacking something to still be asking questions in forums about your wife's interest in other man and cutting you off for socialization with other people. 
I think that somehow along the way you lost your way as a man. It looks that whatever made your wife to be attracted to you is if not completely gone, she's rapidly losing it, and you my friend have a 50% blame, because instead of reacting with dignity and being a man, you're just letting all happen right in your face. 

So enjoy it, you deserve it, because that's what you apparently want.


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## Openminded

There's never an ideal time to end a relationship. If you want to find excuses not to leave, you will.


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## Malaise

wxman3441 said:


> To be fair, while I care about the child, I do not feel a really deep connection with her. I would be sad if things ended but I could move on with my life. My partner may not want to leave because she has bad credit. Losing me would be us selling our house and she would have to go back to renting.


Which may explain why she's with you.


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## wxman3441

Update: Things are ok so far about 5 weeks after I found out (see past posts) I pretty much got confirmation they weren't physical but it still hurts she fell for someone else.
New problem: She is complaining about not having as good of a social life, namely, she is spending little time with her best friend. As I may have stated, her best friend (call her Stacy) dates the other man's brother (call him Ed). Stacy has her own place but practically lives at Ed's and the other man's house. I told my partner, "cant you guys just spend time here or out getting a coffee etc?" Apparently its not easy cause "she's always there."

I an NOT a controlling person. I never said, you cant do this or that anymore. I just said, that going over that house and spending time with him (other man) would not be appropriate at this time. Stacy knows all of this but will still try and get my partner to come over there. My partner has refused up to this point but I can feel the resentment starting to build.

Am I right to not want this to happen? Should I really give in and allow her to hang over there again and just hope, the spark isn't rekindled with the other man?


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## 3Xnocharm

wxman3441 said:


> Am I right to not want this to happen? Should I really give in and allow her to hang over there again and just hope, the spark isn't rekindled with the other man?


Do you REALLY need to ask this?? This is NOT ok! And she KNOWS its not ok, she is testing you to see what you are going to allow her to get away with right under your own nose. Her even considering spending time there is showing you a complete lack of respect. 

Tell her sure, go hang out with your friend and the other man, while I go file for divorce so that you can be free.


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## a_new_me

Nope. You are right.
She needs to stay away from OM, and as her BFF, “Stacy” should understand this and she should make it a point to be respectful of you and your partner and your relationship.

She should come to your home to see your partner or she should make time to go out and have coffee or whatever with your partner.

This “Stacy” does not sound like a very good friend to your partner or a positive influence or respectful of your relationship.

Your partner, if she is feeling lonely in her social life because of this, should step back from her friendship or your partner needs to have a chat with “Stacy” and explain to her how she feels and how she is working on your relationship and how your partner going over to his house is not being productive or respectful to your relationship.

If “Stacy” does not understand this or is not willing to do this for your partner, then “Stacy” is not a true friend.

Encourage your partner to expand her social circle by joining groups with others and try to develop new friendships while she explores new or old interests. You can even help her with this by making suggestions for things you can do together (maybe something like ballroom dancing...that is very romantic) or making arrangements and surprise her?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Malaise

wxman3441 said:


> *I an NOT a controlling person*. I never said, you cant do this or that anymore. I just said, that going over that house and spending time with him (other man) would *not be appropriate at this time*. Stacy knows all of this but will still try and get my partner to come over there. My partner has refused up to this point but I can feel the resentment starting to build.


Having boundaries and not wanting your SO to spend time with another man at AN Y time is not controlling.

If you don't get this then you may as well say nothing and let her do as she wishes.

And she resents not being able to play with OM? What do you resent, if anything?


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## Marduk

wxman3441 said:


> I an NOT a controlling person. I never said, you cant do this or that anymore. I just said, that going over that house and spending time with him (other man) would not be appropriate at this time. Stacy knows all of this but will still try and get my partner to come over there. My partner has refused up to this point but I can feel the resentment starting to build.
> 
> Am I right to not want this to happen? Should I really give in and allow her to hang over there again and just hope, the spark isn't rekindled with the other man?


Man, been there. Still get called controlling every once in a while. But I'm not.

But what I don't do is call anything inappropriate. Or tell her what to do at all. What I _do _do is say things like "Do what you want, and I'll do what I want. That includes making decisions about if I want to be in this marriage."

I even once had her tell me I was being controlling because I might leave if she remains in contact with the problematic dude. To which I responded "Who's being controlling now? I have to stay in a relationship I don't want to be in because you demand it? Life is about choices, you make yours and I'll make mine."

In short, don't go the inappropriate angle. You're not her parent. Take the stance about your boundaries regarding people's behavior you'll accept in your life.

"Go if you want to go. If it's what you want, I love you, and therefore I want you to have what you want. But that doesn't mean I'll be there to come home to if you do. What I will commit to though, is a fair and undramatic divorce that's as amicable as possible."


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## nekonamida

WX, you need to wake up. Your partner fell in love with someone else. She doesn't believe it will be easy to fix your relationship. She doesn't want to leave due to FINANCIAL reasons and not because she genuinely loves you and feels bad about trying to cheat on you with someone else. You don't even care for her as much as you could but you're concerned about her child. Also a child you aren't that emotionally invested in. Do you ever just stop and wonder, "What the hell am I doing?"

This is a recipe for failure. This is not a situation where you have a healthy foundation to fall back on. You are both standing on sand and too prideful, too weak, too codependent, too something to convince yourselves that this is relationship is crumbling all around you and it's time to bail before the sea smacks you back to reality. A child's heart WILL be broken because you're fighting a losing battle. Or more like stalling a defeat. Neither of you have the tools to fix this and neither of your seem particularly willing to go get them other than allowing time to pass and just hope something magically changes. She's blaming you and complaining about everything you do or don't bring to the table and you're rightfully blaming her for trying to step out on you but not taking any actions yourself to solve anything.

Even if the best time to leave was years ago before everyone got this enmeshed, the NEXT best time to leave is today. It's so ridiculous to think that your lives are too enmeshed right now to leave because you know what happens when you don't leave? It gets MORE complicated. Not less complicated. Just imagine how much worse this could be if you were married or had a kid with her. It can and will get so much worse if you wait around for a "good" time to leave. There can never be a better time than now.

So start the process. Tell her to find a rental. Who cares if breaking up means she has to rent now instead of live in your home? She probably should have thought about that before trying to get involved with OM and throwing you under the bus as the cause of all the relationship problems. Come up with a game plan that's fair to her in a separation but don't use "it's complicated" as an excuse to stay. It's not far to you, to her, or to her kid who is watching you both be miserable and learning that his is just how relationships are. And keep in mind - the odds are stacked against you going on as you are and seeing the remarkable improvement you both would need to make this relationship work. You're not losing anything by making it official and figuring it out. You're gaining independence and the freedom to be happy with someone who loves you and wants to be with you.


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## jlg07

Wx, ONLY YOU can define the boundaries that you want in your marriage.
If she is resentful that she can't go hang out around a guy she has already said she is crazy about, then tell her "go ahead, and i will go ahead with the divorce." YOU need to enforce these boundaries as clearly she does NOT want them. She wants YOU to pay for everything, watch HER kid, and then she can go play house with the "crazy-about" OM. Do YOU WANT THAT?
Didn't think so.

If she doesn't like it, either TOUGH, or she has to face the consequences of her actions. Stacy is NO friend to your marriage, and honestly she should NOT be hanging around her -- she is actively encouraging your wife to cheat.

You DO have to stand up for yourself, and if you tell her you will give her consequences, then you REALLY NEED TO. Do not bluff.
Why don't you go to a lawyer or two just to figure out the possible things that may happen -- get a plan together for yourself.


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## She'sStillGotIt

wxman3441 said:


> Update: Things are ok so far about 5 weeks after I found out (see past posts) I pretty much got confirmation they weren't physical but it still hurts she fell for someone else.


 What's to worry about? According to you, she never got physical with her her 'friend.' Oh, and I'm having lunch with Elvis tomorrow (since we're believing in fairy tales, I figured I'd play, too). :banghead:


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## wxman3441

So I hear it again this morning: "I really miss Stacey". Yesterday for Thanksgiving, I told her Stacy and Ed are more than welcome to come by for dinner. "Apparently, Ed (The OM's brother) doesn't feel comfortable because he doesn't want his presence to drum up bad feelings for me. The shocker here is that Dave (The OM) was butthurt that he wasn't invited over to dinner but Stacy and Ed were. Huh? Is he just arrogant? Does he really expect to be invited to our house for a holiday meal, just weeks after I found out my partner had strong feelings for him this past summer? Or is it because what happened this past summer was so innocent that he feels we can just easily move on?

Either way, my partner needs a night out with her other girlfriends tonight because he social life is apparently failing.


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## Nucking Futs

wxman3441 said:


> So I hear it again this morning: "I really miss Stacey". Yesterday for Thanksgiving, I told her Stacy and Ed are more than welcome to come by for dinner. "Apparently, Ed (The OM's brother) doesn't feel comfortable because he doesn't want his presence to drum up bad feelings for me. The shocker here is that Dave (The OM) was butthurt that he wasn't invited over to dinner but Stacy and Ed were. Huh? Is he just arrogant? Does he really expect to be invited to our house for a holiday meal, just weeks after I found out my partner had strong feelings for this this past summer? Or is it because what happened this past summer was so innocent that he feels we can just easily move on.
> 
> *Either way, my partner needs a night out with her other girlfriend tonight because he social life is apparently failing.*


So is her marriage if she doesn't pull her head out of her ass.


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## Theseus

Marduk said:


> I even once had her tell me I was being controlling because I might leave if she remains in contact with the problematic dude. To which I responded "Who's being controlling now? I have to stay in a relationship I don't want to be in because you demand it? Life is about choices, you make yours and I'll make mine."


I'll remember that. That is an excellent way of shooting down bogus accusations of being "controlling".


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## jlg07

wxman3441 said:


> So I hear it again this morning: "I really miss Stacey". Yesterday for Thanksgiving, I told her Stacy and Ed are more than welcome to come by for dinner. "Apparently, Ed (The OM's brother) doesn't feel comfortable because he doesn't want his presence to drum up bad feelings for me. The shocker here is that Dave (The OM) was butthurt that he wasn't invited over to dinner but Stacy and Ed were. Huh? Is he just arrogant? Does he really expect to be invited to our house for a holiday meal, just weeks after I found out my partner had strong feelings for this this past summer? Or is it because what happened this past summer was so innocent that he feels we can just easily move on.
> 
> Either way, my partner needs a night out with her other girlfriend tonight because he social life is apparently failing.


Are you SURE it's some "other GF" and not Stacy/BIL? The way she is acting, I'd be VERY suspect about ANYTHING she does right now.
I hope at the dinner you explained in GREAT details why Dave wasn't invited -- why would you invite someone that Stacy and your wife are working together to have her cheat with?

I just don't think your wife understands how treacherous she has been with this in regards to you and your marriage.


----------



## wxman3441

FYI, we are not legally married but essentially common law.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Interesting. He’s arrogant, but your wife created unnecessary drama, fell in love with another guy, has you blaming yourself and needs a night out........ because her social life is falling apart.

Take her off that pedestal and quit looking for ways to save a marriage already in counseling.


Since no one asked, how did you have it confirmed it wasn’t physical?


Also, what history between her and you are you leaving out?


----------



## wxman3441

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Interesting. He’s arrogant, but your wife created unnecessary drama, fell in love with another guy, has you blaming yourself and needs a night out........ because her social life is falling apart.
> 
> Take her off that pedestal and quit looking for ways to save a marriage already in counseling.
> 
> 
> Since no one asked, how did you have it confirmed it wasn’t physical?
> 
> 
> Also, what history between her and you are you leaving out?


I found a text where she told Dave she cant hang out or talk to him anymore and he seems shocked about and said "Im sorry, I had no idea." It doesnt confirm it, but if they has sex, I think he response would have been different.


----------



## Marduk

wxman3441 said:


> I found a text where she told Dave she cant hang out or talk to him anymore and he seems shocked about and said "Im sorry, I had no idea." It doesnt confirm it, but if they has sex, I think he response would have been different.


When you have to rely on the behaviour or words the problematic other man to decide if you trust your wife... game over.

Essentially you're trusting the affair partner more than you're trusting your own life partner. Which says a lot.


----------



## Tdbo

wxman3441 said:


> FYI, we are not legally married but essentially common law.


You are in charge of the drama in your life.
You can either continue in your self imposed limbo or dump her rump.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

> The shocker here is that Dave (The OM) was butthurt that he wasn't invited over to dinner but Stacy and Ed were. Huh? Is he just arrogant? Does he really expect to be invited to our house for a holiday meal, just weeks after I found out my partner had strong feelings for him this past summer? Or is it because what happened this past summer was so innocent that he feels we can just easily move on?


 Nope, he just figures you are so weak that he should be included. Your feelings on the subject don't matter to him. He just wants time with your partner. He actually would probably get a big kick out of embarrassing you in front of your wife to increase his masculine market share and you are here asking questions about it. Playing the nice guy as you have been will get you in the role of a cuckold faster than any other behavior. If it's not already too late (I suspect it is) you better figure that out, pronto.


----------



## Tilted 1

wxman3441 said:


> FYI, we are not legally married but essentially common law.


So what in the hell! Does that got to do with the price of tea in china. She dedicated to you or not? What your doing is the self inflicted woe is me. And this will continue until you release her and let her fend for herself. There is only one way to solve this, and you know it.


----------



## Chuck71

English Lesson.... past, present, future tense.

She _has_ cheated with him
She _is_ cheating with him
She _will_ cheat with him

Notice the word cheat, in it's form. OK

Everyone tests the other's boundary....just a human condition. You either state yours or show

after an action. I state mine. When crossed, I act accordingly. Cheating is a deal breaker.

Dude... you need to walk away. But here's the cache.... when you do leave, she may try to

"bang you back." Be aware


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

wxman3441 said:


> I found a text where she told Dave she cant hang out or talk to him anymore and he seems shocked about and said "Im sorry, I had no idea." It doesnt confirm it, but if they has sex, I think he response would have been different.


Jesus.

You really can't *see* that she planted that text knowing damned well you'd see it because you go through her phone all the time? Come on, OP. Surely you don't think that was an authentic text exchange between these two, do you? The two of them planted that text knowing full well you'd look through her phone and see it. Her phony, "I can't be your friend anymore" text and his equally *phony* response about how he had 'no idea' their oh-so-innocent friendship was a problem for you is *laughable*.

And the really sad part is that you actually believe that tripe she left for you to find in her phone because you say his reply 'would have been a lot different if they_ did_ have sex.' I hate to say it, but for these two, fooling *you* is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.

And quite honestly, I get the impression it's extremely easy for them to fool you because you're not ready to face the truth. Hopefully, one day you'll take off the blinders.


----------



## Dragan Jovanovic

Well,you got to be kidding us. Your girlfriend has another boyfriend and she disrespected you in so many ways and you still dont know what should you do? Well,than you do nothing. Let her have the boyfriends on the side and you use condom when you have sex with her for your safety and all of your problems are solved. Eather that od you dump her and go be with somebody who loves you and respects you. So,what is going to be? First solution or second?


----------



## Robert22205

With respect to the divorced OM (who uses/lives with his brother and approves of his brother beating Stacey), he's a POS. 

He's the lowest of the low. She should never have even been attracted to this POS (and never 'friends'). This POS is someone that should be avoided at all costs. 

There is nothing socially redeeming about contact with him and I'm willing to bet he lives a life of lies, manipulation, and taking advantage of people.

She should have discouraged her 13yo daughter from after school contact with his daughters (in order to keep this POS at a distance).

He knows full well that their behavior is inappropriate and is just playing dumb. Why? Either because he knows you'll read it .... or because it's all just a game to him.


----------



## Robert22205

Red Flag 1 - the text she sent to the OM blames you. Her text should have included a reference to the boundaries they crossed and their late nights together instead of blaming you.

What's that mean? She does not understand/agree that her behavior is inappropriate for someone in a committed relationship. It suggests that at some point in the future she will continue/repeat the inappropriate behavior with Dave (just as long as she thinks you won't find out). 

Therefore, you can't trust her to self-correct or behave appropriately when you are not standing guard. Are you ok with playing the role of prison guard? 

Flag 2 - She swims in a cesspool of people with low character that encourage and influence her to make bad decisions (gambling, excessive drinking, using coke, tolerating domestic violence, and topped off with bad credit). No surprise that they also tend to be parasites that find someone to live off of. For example, Dave living with his brother; her brother living off you for two years; her mom living off a guy). 

She has bad credit and barely scrapes by (even with you subsidizing her) - but survives by living with you. Sound familiar?

She's comfortable with these people because that's who she is. An old Spanish proverb says that: “Tell me who are your friends, and I'll tell you who you are". A bunch of similar expressions are found in English, for instance: “Birds of a feather flock together".

Conclusion:

MC is a waste of time. 

You can’t fix your relationship until she fixes herself. 

Among other things, in order to fix herself she first has to recognize that there’s a problem with her decision making/behavior (and she’s not there yet); and then to have a chance to fix herself, she needs to distance herself from all these ‘friends’ and family that validate her poor life style choices (including a lack of boundaries). 

Suggestion for you: I read your posts about your previous marriage. I suggest you seek IC to explore why you are drawn to needy women and tolerate relationships with drama, disrespect and toxic self destructive behavior. The first step towards living your best life is to recognize that: ”you deserve better”.

I wish you well


----------



## wxman3441

Dave and his brother were at a club for a concert the other night where my partner was working at (she put on a festival there). Dave was there because his daughter is friends with my partner's daughter and they both liked the band. I found out that my partner told her best friend , "well it was nice to see Dave the other night but I ran to run into the corner when (I) came in the club." Wonder why....


----------



## anonfrank

Sorry OP, but you need to dump her and move on. You guys are not legally married so there are no legal entanglements. There is someone else for you out there. Why are you torturing yourself?


----------



## Robert22205

Can you clarify? Did you attend too? And she ran away from him when you arrived?

She had to know in advance that Dave would be there (since her daughter was going with Dave's daughter.

Finally, why were Stacey and Dave's brother there?

It sure sounds like a double date that everyone knew about in advance but you.

And she's still unsafe and thinking like a wayward by blaming you for imposing boundaries on her behavior. Her behavior last night is more evidence that she can not be trusted on her own and that you have to play the role of prison guard.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Can you clarify? Did you attend too? And she ran away from him when you arrived?
> 
> She had to know in advance that Dave would be there (since her daughter was going with Dave's daughter.
> 
> Finally, why were Stacey and Dave's brother there?
> 
> It sure sounds like a double date that everyone knew about in advance but you.
> 
> And she's still unsafe and thinking like a wayward by blaming you for imposing boundaries on her behavior. Her behavior last night is more evidence that she can not be trusted on her own and that you have to play the role of prison guard.


The band playing was a popular one so that's why Stacy, her bf and Dave and all the kids were there. She knew I was going to show up eventually (I had to work late). Sounds they may have chatted (Dave and my partner) and she made herself scarce when I showed up.


----------



## Girl_power

When I read this thread I picture you guys in your 20s because it all sounds so immature. It’s high school drama. If she likes Dave then she should be with Dave. If she wants to be with you, then she needs to be with you and start acting like it. She sounds like she doesn’t know what she wants so she is keeping her options open. 

People do not entertain crushes when they are in a relationship that they value and one they feel happy and lucky to be in. OP you have to understand this point.... there are different types of relationships. One where you feel so lucky to have the other person and you would never jeopardize it. If something bothered your significant other, that action wouldn’t be worth it because he is what’s important. Do you understand what I’m saying? Then there are relationships that are convenient, we’ve been together for so long, you can take it or leave it so you start to push the boundaries to see how far you can get. To see how much you can get away with. Because you hold the power. And you want to keep options open because there might be a better life or more happiness with someone else, or maybe not... so you don’t shut down opportunities. 
This is your girlfriend right now. She is Luke warm. She is not all in.


----------



## Robert22205

Did she tell you Dave would be there?
Did she invite you to the concert?

You want to believe she's trust worthy and it's blinding you. 

She just does the minimum to appease you. She takes no initiative and is not proactive. She's allowing the circumstances (a band, her job, her daughter's friends) to break NC. She should be knocking down doors and kicking ass to protect and save her relationship with you. 

Remember she destroyed your trust and should be doing everything possible to restore trust.

Every time their paths cross her feelings for him trigger. She knows this. Her feelings (i.e., lust) for him will not stop until she goes 100% NC or you've tired of being ignored, disrespected and feeling unsafe. 

With anyone else it sounds innocent except that Dave's woman beating brother, Dave who supports his brother dishing out the beating, and Stacey (the abused woman who also encouraged your SO to cheat) plus your wife have a history of weak boundaries and inappropriate behavior (drinking, drugs, lying and using people). 

Here's the lie the 4 of them are creating (probably for different reasons) to justify continuing their social circle: 

1- Stacey is your SO's best friend. Stacey's BF and his brother Dave come as a package. Therefore, as long as Stacey is in your SO's life, then Dave is too.

2 - Her 13yo daughter is friends with Dave's daughter - and your SO has no control over this (I call BS on this). 

Dave, his brother, and Stacey all sound like low life bottom feeding POS to me. Collectively they are a bad influence on you, your SO and her daughter.

Your SO is unwilling or just isn't smart enough to dump these people from her life (and her daughter's life).

People have divorced for less than what you have been subjected to. 

This only ends when you say: zero contact (for your SO and her daughter) and no excuses.
Your SO has to choose you over her sleaze bag circle of friends.

You can't control her or save her from herself - but you can save yourself so you can lead your best life.


----------



## Girl_power

It’s exhausting to have to manage a relationship. It shouldn’t have to be like that OP. You guys aren’t on the same page. I say you should state your expectations and consequences (breaking up with her), and loosen the lease you have on her and watch her hang herself with it. Give her freedom to make the right or wrong choices then you can finally be with her or end things. By controlling and managing her it will just drag the relationship on then eventually end. Take it from people who have been there and done that... time is precious and most of us wish we ended things sooner.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Can you clarify? Did you attend too? And she ran away from him when you arrived?
> 
> She had to know in advance that Dave would be there (since her daughter was going with Dave's daughter.
> 
> Finally, why were Stacey and Dave's brother there?
> 
> It sure sounds like a double date that everyone knew about in advance but you.
> 
> And she's still unsafe and thinking like a wayward by blaming you for imposing boundaries on her behavior. Her behavior last night is more evidence that she can not be trusted on her own and that you have to play the role of prison guard.


I attended but after the event started. She told her friend, Stacy, "It was nice to see Dave...I had to run in a corner when (I) arrived). 

Stacy and Dave's brother were there because their kids were at this concerns. All of their kids are friends with each other.


----------



## nekonamida

So she is not cutting off the OM and whatever the hell this is will continue. What are you going to do about it?


----------



## Sparta

What’s wrong with you seriously do you not understand that these people are laughing at you dude.? I don’t even know what to say this guy I think I actually feel sorry for him. I think he actually just doesn’t get it. OP please for the love of Christ stand up and be a man get rid of this poor excuse for a woman just get out. The whole town’s has to be laughing at you and you don’t even see it. I’m serious OP just get yourself out of that whole situation she doesn’t love you dude come on leave because you can’t and will not handle your situation and it’s making you look really pathetic. OP tell me the truth are you scared of this guy is that what’s going on.? Private message me we need to talk ASAP.!


----------



## manwithnoname

Girl_power said:


> When I read this thread I picture you guys in your 20s because it all sounds so immature. It’s high school drama. If she likes Dave then she should be with Dave. If she wants to be with you, then she needs to be with you and start acting like it. *She sounds like she doesn’t know what she wants so she is keeping her options open.
> *
> People do not entertain crushes when they are in a relationship that they value and one they feel happy and lucky to be in. OP you have to understand this point.... there are different types of relationships. One where you feel so lucky to have the other person and you would never jeopardize it. If something bothered your significant other, that action wouldn’t be worth it because he is what’s important. Do you understand what I’m saying? Then there are relationships that are convenient, we’ve been together for so long, you can take it or leave it so you start to push the boundaries to see how far you can get. To see how much you can get away with. Because you hold the power. And you want to keep options open because there might be a better life or more happiness with someone else, or maybe not... so you don’t shut down opportunities.
> This is your girlfriend right now. She is Luke warm. She is not all in.


She knows exactly what she wants. She wants to bang the OM but she needs the financial security that the OP provides.

OP from several pages ago:

"My partner may not want to leave because she has bad credit. Losing me would be us selling our house and she would have to go back to renting."

Best thing for the OP is to dump her.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

wxman3441 said:


> Dave and his brother were at a club for a concert the other night where my partner was working at (she put on a festival there). Dave was there because his daughter is friends with my partner's daughter and they both liked the band. I found out that my partner told her best friend , "well it was nice to see Dave the other night but I ran to run into the corner when (I) came in the club." Wonder why....


You've got *reply after reply to you *in this thread, some asking you questions for clarification, others advising you on different aspects of what you should be doing or looking out for, and you*ignore them all* and instead just reappear with some vague nonsensical story about a concert and your wife making some stupid comment about hiding in a corner when you came in because her boyfriend was there. You know the guy I mean - the one she never had sex with. :rofl:

In either event, I'm having a harder and harder time taking you seriously, so I'm going to back out of this thread and just eat my popcorn on the sidelines..


----------



## Robert22205

I don't think you're afraid to confront or dump her. 

The 4 of them (plus her mother) are each human train wrecks and use people (including using each other). That's what they do and they will continue to take advantage of you until you kick them out of your life. 

Instead, I think you are in denial. You're hoping as long as you don't actually catch them in bed (or see a text admitting to a PA) that she is a safe partner. 

Denial is one of the stages of trauma that a human being goes through when they've been betrayed by someone they trusted. Google: PTSD. And then ask yourself how all the symptoms apply to you.

Prepare yourself. Read up on the 180 and plan your exit. Every step you take (no matter how small) towards exiting will feel good because it will give you a sense of control. 

There's various degrees/speed of separating from her. The purpose of the 180 is for you too pull away from her (mostly mental although it includes physical too) so you can think clearly and regain your emotional 'independence' from her. 

Set up a private session with an attorney to see how you will be impacted when you dump her. If she's on the deed to the house, how do you get her off? 
In the US, the first hour is usually free (don't know about Canada). 

Consider making an appointment to see your doctor the day after you dump her. Get tested for STDs. You can also get a 1 week supply of ambien to help with sleeping. 

Get your bank and investment accounts in your name alone.
Get the title to your car/truck in your name alone.
Stop subsidizing her (the stuff you mentioned in an earlier post).

Read a self help book on co-dependency (IC if you can afford it).


----------



## wxman3441

She'sStillGotIt said:


> You've got *reply after reply to you *in this thread, some asking you questions for clarification, others advising you on different aspects of what you should be doing or looking out for, and you*ignore them all* and instead just reappear with some vague nonsensical story about a concert and your wife making some stupid comment about hiding in a corner when you came in because her boyfriend was there. You know the guy I mean - the one she never had sex with. :rofl:
> 
> In either event, I'm having a harder and harder time taking you seriously, so I'm going to back out of this thread and just eat my popcorn on the sidelines..


Maybe I am just trying to get official confirmation that they actually slept together or something more is still going on. After 6 years, I am trying to hard to believe she just isn't that type of person.


----------



## Tilted 1

Wxman, do not see this as another defeat in relationships you have had in your life, but rather see this as what you have learned from your relationships and know what is not going to be accepted by you. As most humans do we take the responsibility of others too far. But this is your chance to show yourself you are worth so much more. Do not for a second think this defines you because it doesn't. So don't let it.

We know it a bitter pill to swallow, but trying to get blood from a stone, will never happen. And chalk it up to love for yourself. And refuse to let others take advantage of you no longer. But surrond yourself with positive people with and who respect you and values. And they are not that hard to find because they show the real selves pretty quickly.


----------



## jlg07

wxman3441 said:


> I attended but after the event started. She told her friend, Stacy, "It was nice to see Dave...I had to run in a corner when (I) arrived).
> 
> Stacy and Dave's brother were there because their kids were at this concerns. All of their kids are friends with each other.


So, she was hanging out talking with Dave UNTIL you arrived, then she ran off to make it seem like she WASN'T talking with him all night until you showed up.
Is that clear enough? The fact that she is finding ways AROUND you so that she can hang out/talk with Dave (who she is crazy about) is all you should need to know.
YES she is cheating. At the very least it is an EA. Does it have to be physical for you to walk away? Isn't her disrespect and her manipulation and lying enough?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

wxman3441 said:


> Maybe I am just trying to get official confirmation that they actually slept together or something more is still going on. After 6 years, I am trying to hard to believe she just isn't that type of person.


What the hell difference does it really make? She is making it clear that SHE WANTS HIM. Why are you clinging onto a woman who wants another man??


----------



## wxman3441

Tilted 1 said:


> Wxman, do not see this as another defeat in relationships you have had in your life, but rather see this as what you have learned from your relationships and know what is not going to be accepted by you. As most humans do we take the responsibility of others too far. But this is your chance to show yourself you are worth so much more. Do not for a second think this defines you because it doesn't. So don't let it.
> 
> We know it a bitter pill to swallow, but trying to get blood from a stone, will never happen. And chalk it up to love for yourself. And refuse to let others take advantage of you no longer. But surrond yourself with positive people with and who respect you and values. And they are not that hard to find because they show the real selves pretty quickly.


Thank for you the kind words.


----------



## Malaise

wxman3441 said:


> Maybe I am just trying to get official confirmation that they actually slept together or something more is still going on. *After 6 years, I am trying to hard to believe she just isn't that type of person*.


If I had a dollar every time I heard that...


----------



## Chuck71

OP..... you are sticking your head in the sand, hoping this will all go away. It won't.

You are listening to what she says and not watching what she does....fatal mistake.

Tell her you need a bit of time and space to figure things out.... and watch what she does. She will run to

the OM. Then there is your answer.

Solid relationships survive tribulation, adversity, trails by fire..... yours will not or never will.

As my pop used to say, "The writing is on the wall."


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

wxman3441 said:


> After 6 years, I am trying to hard to believe she just isn't that type of person.


Yeah well, that and $2 bucks will get you a jelly donut.

You've got 6 pages of *experienced* people TELLING you what to look for and what kind of things you need to do in order to move forward and instead, you just keep adjusting those blinders and burying your head even further into the sand because it feels so nice and warm around your ears, I guess.

I'll come back to this thread in a few months when you reappear out of nowhere to 'update' us and tell us all how you caught her yet *again* and that everyone was right but you wouldn't listen to us and you wish you had because it would have saved you months of heartache but you were in denial, etc. etc. etc.....

We get those types of posts all the time.

Good luck to you OP.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Anyone who is on this board whose significant other had an EA, PA or inappropriate conversations knows some of what you are feeling. Most believed “my SO isn’t that type of person.”

What you have to realize is, you may have been right 7 or 8 years ago. People change, sometimes in a dramatic fashion, in six years.

There was a point where I was not allowed a key to my parents house, could only be there when they were home and had to leave the house when they went to work. Six years later I was stable, had my own family, had a good job and was running my own martial arts studio. I have a key to their houses, cars and am executor of their estate.

Nope, not drugs, just stupid decisions and life.

You have to take her off the pedestal. Honestly, no one should be up on one because we are all flawed.


----------



## Marduk

wxman3441 said:


> Maybe I am just trying to get official confirmation that they actually slept together or something more is still going on. After 6 years, I am trying to hard to believe she just isn't that type of person.


How about you just go do what she does. 

If you’re going to have an open marriage, you might as well get some side action yourself.


----------



## wxman3441

Just to clarify, we are not married. Dating for 6 years living together for 4. I am divorced once and wasn’t really set on marriage. Given this situation and issues in the past (her addict family members living off of us) I don’t see marriage with her.


----------



## Adelais

wxman3441 said:


> Just to clarify, we are not married. Dating for 6 years living together for 4. I am divorced once and wasn’t really set on marriage. Given this situation and issues in the past (her addict family members living off of us) I don’t see marriage with her.


So, why are you living with her?


----------



## Marduk

wxman3441 said:


> Just to clarify, we are not married. Dating for 6 years living together for 4. I am divorced once and wasn’t really set on marriage. Given this situation and issues in the past (her addict family members living off of us) I don’t see marriage with her.


Well, that should make dumping her relatively straightforward then.


----------



## Tilted 1

I so think common law Elligirl put on up but it's only common law when you have both your names on a gas bill or something like that, but what l remember most states do not recognize common law.


----------



## Robert22205

I recall you're in Canada. Schedule and appointment with an attorney to find out how best to exit this relationship, including how to 'undo' jointly owned property. The first hour may be free.


----------



## Marduk

If he's Canadian, I'm fairly sure common-law starts after a year of living together, and makes you married. You leave the marriage with the assets you brought into it, that haven't been co-mingled.

Talk to a lawyer to be sure.


----------



## wxman3441

Yes I am in Canada. I am pretty sure we are viewed as common-law which starts after 6 months in this province.

I plan on talking to a lawyer soon. My biggest concern would be what to do what the house we bought a year ago. The house is in my name though due to her bad credit.

She has been a homebody since I approached her but she is sad about her relationship with her best friend being affected. Her best friend practically lives with Dave's brother. She said "that's 60% of my social circle gone." I tested her by telling her to just go over there again but she isn't biting.


----------



## Robert22205

Thank you for sharing. 

Although I think she's a high risk partner, when you speak with the attorney cover all your options, also inquire about the viability of some sort of common law 'post-nup' like agreement covering how your assets are divided if you stay together - but say you split 5 years from now.


----------



## BluesPower

wxman3441 said:


> She has been a homebody since I approached her but she is sad about her relationship with her best friend being affected. Her best friend practically lives with Dave's brother. She said "that's 60% of my social circle gone." I tested her by telling her to just go over there again but she isn't biting.


When in god's name are you going to wake up????

Who gives a **** about her social circle??? You should not. I mean, she is out banging another guy, and you are at all concerned about he social circle????

Please, Please, PLEASE get out of this relationship...


----------



## Chuck71

wxman3441 said:


> Just to clarify, we are not married. Dating for 6 years living together for 4. I am divorced once and wasn’t really set on marriage. Given this situation and issues in the past* (her addict family members living off of us)* I don’t see marriage with her.


I already know the answer but to make sure you do........ What was your g/f's childhood like?

With parents? Siblings? Immediate family?


----------



## Taxman

Canadian here as well, under any legal definition, you are married in the eyes of the government of Canada for all intents and purposes. The only hurdle you will not need to cross is an official dissolution/divorce. I would consult a legal rep with respect to your rights and obligations in this particular situation. I am unsure as to which province you reside and matters vary greatly (Quebec laws are almost Napoleonic)

That being said, you need to get into this relationship, or get out of it.


----------



## wxman3441

Chuck71 said:


> I already know the answer but to make sure you do........ What was your g/f's childhood like?
> 
> With parents? Siblings? Immediate family?


I don't know if I should go into large detail but there was a lot of mental and physical abuse, not to her but to other people. She has 3 siblings, all with some kind of substance or mental health issue.


----------



## wxman3441

Taxman said:


> Canadian here as well, under any legal definition, you are married in the eyes of the government of Canada for all intents and purposes. The only hurdle you will not need to cross is an official dissolution/divorce. I would consult a legal rep with respect to your rights and obligations in this particular situation. I am unsure as to which province you reside and matters vary greatly (Quebec laws are almost Napoleonic)
> 
> That being said, you need to get into this relationship, or get out of it.


We live in Newfoundland.


----------



## wxman3441

So after weeks or feeling resentment for missing her best friend and me testing her by saying, "just go over there.", she did go there last night. Dave (OM) apparently was in the other room most of the time to "respect our relationship." I know this may sound stupid on my part but at this point I need final clarification. If she really wants to be with him, it will happen soon.


----------



## Tasorundo

You just really love misery I think.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

wxman3441 said:


> So after weeks or feeling resentment for missing her best friend and me testing her by saying, "just go over there.", she did go there last night. Dave (OM) apparently was in the other room most of the time to "respect our relationship." I know this may sound stupid on my part but at this point I need final clarification. If she really wants to be with him, it will happen soon.


Um, SHE DOES, she proved it to you right here! Good lord, do you need a brick wall to fall on your head? She is prioritizing BOTH of these people over you, and you just keep sitting there wringing your hands!


----------



## Andy1001

wxman3441 said:


> So after weeks or feeling resentment for missing her best friend and me testing her by saying, "just go over there.", she did go there last night. Dave (OM) apparently was in the other room most of the time to "respect our relationship." I know this may sound stupid on my part but at this point I need final clarification. If she really wants to be with him, it will happen soon.


Congratulations. You’re the first person I’ve ever put on ignore on tam. 
You are like a child who finds a hole full of **** but is convinced if he keeps digging he’ll find a pony. 
All he will find is more ****.


----------



## Malaise

wxman3441 said:


> So after weeks or feeling resentment for missing her best friend and me testing her by saying, "just go over there.", she did go there last night. *Dave (OM) apparently was in the other room most of the time to "respect our relationship." *I know this may sound stupid on my part but at this point I need final clarification. If she really wants to be with him, it will happen soon.


According to whom?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

This is not how love works. She should cut them all out period. I am not saying she can’t have friends, but no way should she treat you like trash until you cave In to her demands. Quit looking at time invested. You are miserable and guessing, this will not get better.

The fact you are waiting is pretty sad.


----------



## Openminded

What else do you need?


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Damn man, You are your own worst enemy.


----------



## Robert22205

Did they drink? 
Did she volunteer the information that the OM stayed in the other room? 
Does that mean neither said "hi" (NC)?

Note: You have a right to feel safe from infidelity. Does her being at the OM's home make you feel safe? Does she really believe you are comfortable with her being in the OM's house? Why did she have to meet her girlfriend at the OM's house?


----------



## Robert22205

Actually I understand how you feel. Exiting infidelity is rarely a straight line. I'm sorry you're going through this around the Holidays. I'm not going to nag you or repeat what I posted previously about her or her little group of toxic friends. 

Check in here as often as you need to vent and seek advice as this nightmare plays out over the holidays.

Google the symptoms of PTSD just so you'll understand yourself better as you exit infidelity. 

If you are going to 'test' her further, you chose an excellent time of the year in terms of parties, booze, and (for her friends) drugs. There's plenty of opportunity for someone with poor boundaries (and little empathy for your feelings) to escalate in a very short time.

She's learned not to text (without deleting) so you're never catch her texting her girlfriends about the OM again.

1 - Can you share with us what specific boundaries she needs to violate that will enable you to take final action (e.g., talking to the OM, sitting next to OM, dancing, holding hands, kiss, sleeping over at his house or heavy drinking/drugs in his presence ...the list is endless)?

Note: if she's caught talking to him she will always say they're talking about their kids.

2 - Can you share how you will collect the evidence you need (eyes on surprise visit, peeking through a window, PI, or trusted friend)?


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> 1 - Can you share with us what specific boundaries she needs to violate that will enable you to take final action (e.g., talking to the OM, sitting next to OM, dancing, holding hands, kiss, sleeping over at his house or heavy drinking/drugs in his presence ...the list is endless)?
> 
> Note: if she's caught talking to him she will always say they're talking about their kids.
> 
> 2 - Can you share how you will collect the evidence you need (eyes on surprise visit, peeking through a window, PI, or trusted friend)?


Look I get what many people are saying and I am not trying to ignore anyone's advice. At this point, I guess I am looking for clear evidence she truly desires him over me. I guess I have not found that yet but once I do, trust me I am gone. I feel confident that picture will come clear at some point. I do think her best friend is a bad influence and has tried to get her to go over there many times even though my partner refused for several months. She finally admitted, "I need her and she needs me" in regards to the friendship. This friend just doesn't want to go through the hassle of meeting my partner outside of that home and that's the part I don't completely understand.


----------



## manwithnoname

wxman3441 said:


> Look I get what many people are saying and I am not trying to ignore anyone's advice. At this point, I guess I am looking for clear evidence she truly desires him over me. I guess I have not found that yet but once I do, trust me I am gone. I feel confident that picture will come clear at some point. I do think her best friend is a bad influence and has tried to get her to go over there many times even though my partner refused for several months. She finally admitted, "I need her and she needs me" in regards to the friendship. *This friend just doesn't want to go through the hassle of meeting my partner outside of that home* and that's the part I don't completely understand.


You have enough clear evidence, she has shown you many times. Do you want it in writing? 

He was in the other room, but so was she. 

I think the bold part is a made up excuse to have her go over there. This friend never leaves the house? What kind of "friend" thinks it is too much hassle to meet their friend at a neutral site or at your place?


----------



## Stillasamountain

wxman3441 said:


> This friend just doesn't want to go through the hassle of meeting my partner outside of that home and that's the part I don't completely understand.


Because when she goes to her friends house, she has free rein and can then make up whatever story to blow up your skirt. Does it make more sense now?


----------



## sokillme

Andy1001 said:


> You are like a child who finds a hole full of **** but is convinced if he keeps digging he’ll find a pony.


Ha,

Describes so many. It's really had to see that your spouse doesn't love you when you are in the middle of it I guess. But from the outside it's pretty clear, you don't treat someone you love like that.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

wxman3441 said:


> Look I get what many people are saying and I am not trying to ignore anyone's advice. At this point, I guess I am looking for clear evidence she truly desires him over me. I guess I have not found that yet but once I do, trust me I am gone. I feel confident that picture will come clear at some point. I do think her best friend is a bad influence and has tried to get her to go over there many times even though my partner refused for several months. She finally admitted, "I need her and she needs me" in regards to the friendship. This friend just doesn't want to go through the hassle of meeting my partner outside of that home and that's the part I don't completely understand.



You do understand desire is not mutually exclusive to an affair or sex. A man or woman can desire someone for sex and still desire the stability and love their spouse or significant other provides?

She can desire the stability you provide and at the same time desire the danger the affair contains. You may never see one because she will never show you.

That’s not an admission, that’s a misdirect. Their relathionship has nothing to do with the other guy,


----------



## Prodigal

wxman3441 said:


> I guess I am looking for clear evidence she truly desires him over me. I guess I have not found that yet but once I do, trust me I am gone.


The thought that keeps coming to me as I read your thread is why not just start making surprise visits to the friend's house. I mean, c'mon man, do you just want to find them in bed having sex to know that your gf is over you? Fine. Then start popping up unannounced. Jeesh!


----------



## Chuck71

wxman3441 said:


> Look I get what many people are saying and I am not trying to ignore anyone's advice. At this point, I guess I am looking for clear evidence she truly desires him over me. I guess I have not found that yet but once I do, trust me I am gone. I feel confident that picture will come clear at some point. I do think her best friend is a bad influence and has tried to get her to go over there many times even though my partner refused for several months. She finally admitted, "I need her and she needs me" in regards to the friendship. This friend just doesn't want to go through the hassle of meeting my partner outside of that home and that's the part I don't completely understand.


She is in the other room with him, NOT when she could be with you. Yes your gf and OM talk about

you. But it's making fun of you. I could almost bet she has given him a quickie b-job with you

in the other room. I never knew if my W (XW since early 2013) cheated on me or not. Just the disrespect 

and not wanting to save our M was enough for me to D her ass and never look back.

Our DDay was seven years ago. And ever since the D.... she continually made reaches until

I blocked her from any communication.


----------



## Robert22205

Did your wife and her bestie drink at Dave's house?
Was the bestie's boyfriend drinking with them?
How long was she at Dave's house?

Your wife is an expert in creating situations where she can say contact with Dave is/was beyond her control. And her game works because she's learned that your love is blind and you will eventually cave in. 

As I recall, your wife repeatedly discouraged you from attending social events so she could spend time with Dave. 

IMO, there should never (never) be another situation where your wife's expects you to trust her with respect to Dave (like Dave stayed in the other room and there was no smiling, laughing, or chat of any kind).

Basically, your wife has you believing she can't live without partying (in private) with her best friend under the same roof as Dave ... and her best friend comes with her woman beating boyfriend ... and the boyfriend comes with his brother: Dave). 

And you're supposed to believe it's just a coincidence that it looks like a double date.

IMO you need to reframe her relationship with her best girlfriend (i.e., her 'need' or obsession to be with her bestie) as a desire to be with Dave. 
Why? because that's the end result of her relationship with her girlfriend. As long as you accept the bestie in your wife's life, you accept Dave too. 

You said: "At this point, I guess I am looking for clear evidence she truly desires him over me."

It makes no sense that your wife's girlfriend will not meet her anywhere but Dave's house (because it's a lie). You have no reason to trust her with Dave under the same roof. And you know her friends will not tell you if she cheats.

With you she has a reliable partner and a safe loving home for herself (and her 13yo daughter) vs the OM who is a looser that supports beating women.

Therefore, regardless of how much she 'desires' him, she'd have to be insane to outright dump you for the OM. And every year she stays with you she may improve the financial benefit to her if you later split. Time is on her side.

She'd have to be really stupid to provide you with the clear evidence you're looking for. And she learned that she can get away with some really inappropriate behavior (drunken sleep over at his house) - including arranging for you to stay home so she can party/spend time with him. 

As long as you allow her to continue to say: contact with Dave was unavoidable, nothing happened or he stayed in another room - you will wonder if she's cheating with him.


----------



## *Deidre*

OP, it seems like you believe that most people who cheat are ''over'' their current partner, or they don't want their current partner, anymore. If you read a lot of threads on here about infidelity, it often is the case that the cheater simply wants both his/her current partner, and something different on the side. With you, your gf gets a doormat, which seems like it suits her to an extent. You're the safe guy, who will never leave her no matter what. But, the other guy, is the not so safe guy, but she likes that excitement. This is often the world that most cheaters live in, if you read the threads on here, or articles even, about cheating.

Even those who have reconciled here, the betrayed spouses had to 'catch' their current partners in the act, and then the cheating spouse would beg for forgiveness. But, why didn't they stop the affair before they were found out? Because they liked living in both worlds...the world of security and the world of pretending to be single.

So, this will go on and on until you end it. And when you do end it, she'll pretend like she cares and will beg, plead and cry...offering sex, and promising to never ever do it again. (see the many threads that share these same themes)

I hope you make a decision that favors yourself, because you're living in the world of a cheater right now.


----------



## BluesPower

wxman3441 said:


> So after weeks or feeling resentment for missing her best friend and me testing her by saying, "just go over there.", she did go there last night. Dave (OM) apparently was in the other room most of the time to "respect our relationship." I know this may sound stupid on my part but at this point I need final clarification. If she really wants to be with him, it will happen soon.


No it has already happened, you are just in complete and total denial.

I guess you just like living like this for whatever reason.

She probably wont leave you as long as you let her go and bang her BF every so often...


----------



## wxman3441

*Deidre* said:


> OP, it seems like you believe that most people who cheat are ''over'' their current partner, or they don't want their current partner, anymore. If you read a lot of threads on here about infidelity, it often is the case that the cheater simply wants both his/her current partner, and something different on the side. With you, your gf gets a doormat, which seems like it suits her to an extent. You're the safe guy, who will never leave her no matter what. But, the other guy, is the not so safe guy, but she likes that excitement. This is often the world that most cheaters live in, if you read the threads on here, or articles even, about cheating.
> 
> Even those who have reconciled here, the betrayed spouses had to 'catch' their current partners in the act, and then the cheating spouse would beg for forgiveness. But, why didn't they stop the affair before they were found out? Because they liked living in both worlds...the world of security and the world of pretending to be single.
> 
> So, this will go on and on until you end it. And when you do end it, she'll pretend like she cares and will beg, plead and cry...offering sex, and promising to never ever do it again. (see the many threads that share these same themes)
> 
> I hope you make a decision that favors yourself, because you're living in the world of a cheater right now.


Thank you. I really don't understand why I am holding on like this because I usually haven't historically. Maybe because we have a house and there is a kid involved and I am thinking too much of her feelings.

I had to work on Christmas yesterday and she was over there again for a few hours and accepted a gift of marijuana edibles from Dave and was high most of the afternoon. I really don't think I have a choice...


----------



## Malaise

wxman3441 said:


> I had to work on Christmas yesterday and she was over there again for a few hours and accepted a gift of marijuana edibles from Dave and was high most of the afternoon. I really don't think I have a choice...


If you had written this as your original post the responses ( at least from me ) would have been the same as after all the pages . Get out.


----------



## SunCMars

wxman3441 said:


> Thank you. I really don't understand why I am holding on like this because I usually haven't historically. Maybe because we have a house and there is a kid involved and I am thinking too much of her feelings.
> 
> I had to work on Christmas yesterday and she was over there again for a few hours and accepted a gift of marijuana edibles from Dave and was high most of the afternoon. I really don't think I have a choice...


On all, of all days, she disrespects you, on this, Christ's birthday. 

And, while you had to work, mind you (not), so as to provide for her food and housing, her welfare. 

Her welfare! God, your unwell fare.

She was high, not just from Mary Wanna stroking her sensibilities, but from Dave, likely, lightly stroking her loins and her nippled chest full of hope.



TT 1-


----------



## SunCMars

Don't wax, man, don't wane, bloom full your bright and angered light.

Expose her to daylight, let her see what sunlight does to those dark souls who cheat.

She is weak, she cannot break away from that, that which destroys her assured future.


Like a moth into the flame she goes. 
Stop extinguishing her fluttering journey into a future without a supporting actor.
You are supporting a waif of a woman.

Her worth is gossamer thin. Dave sees right through her, he sees her naked lust.

Open thou, your eyes, and see a future without this common butterfly.

She obviously, cannot help herself, she relies on you and Dave to carry forth her weaknesses. 
Drop her, let Dave have of her. No, not that he has not.

Do her no favors, do yourself a large one, drop her on her bum.

Drop her on that bum, Dave, and on her own plump, puttering, disparate, derriere.


----------



## Robert22205

I'm truly sorry this happened over the holidays (and while you're working). 

I'm surprised she'd even admit to it since in view of her history with Dave - her behavior yesterday (even if there were more than just the 4 of them present) sounds like a double date. 

Her behavior is incredibly lacking in empathy for how that would make you feel (i.e., unsafe). 

Your common law wife is not some teenage girl that doesn't understand that her choices/behavior have consequences.


----------



## Robert22205

Like Deidry says: she insists/likes living in two worlds (you & security - and pretending to be single).

Plus, since she says that she ‘can only’ meet her girlfriend at the private home of Dave & his woman beating brother - you will never catch her having sex. 

Be prepared for her crying and begging for another chance. And saying: if you loved me you'd give me another chance; nothing physical happened; and you're being unreasonable or jealous.


----------



## Robert22205

Fortunately, the 13yo girl is close to her dad and is not financially dependent on you. She may get to spend more time with her dad as a result of the break-up. 

If she's alone on New Year's Eve, she'll probably spend the entire night over at Dave's house.

Some thoughts: 

1 - you can't control (or change) her; 

2 - it's her actions (not her promises or words) that defines who she really is; and

3 – when someone reveals ‘who’ they are – believe them. 

Have you spoken to an attorney?
What is your exit strategy?


----------



## nekonamida

Wx, you need IC because you're choosing to go about this in such an unhealthy way. You're not in high school. You shouldn't be "testing" your partner for clear evidence of who she cares for more by pushing her over to him like that. You should be choosing to stay or leave based on the evidence instead of playing these childish games. You're not accomplishing anything more than driving yourself crazy with more paranoia, guessing, and further urges to manipulate her into giving you proof instead of accepting the answers she's given you. If this is new behavior for you, there's a reason for it and a need for you to undo the damaging things you're learning from this messy relationship.

If you know you need to leave but can't or won't, that's what IC is for. That's what books like "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay" are for. This is much more useful to you getting what you need to make moves to leave then convincing her back into OM's space and being upset by the results.

And keep in mind - there is no reason she can't see her best friend at your place or in a public place without OM. She doesn't like it? Too bad. That's the consequence of her attempts at cheating with him and carrying on an EA. You told her to go but she also could have just made better plans that didn't include the OM in the first place.


----------



## Tilted 1

Robert22205 said:


> I'm truly sorry this happened over the holidays (and while you're working).
> 
> I'm surprised she'd even admit to it since in view of her history with Dave - her behavior yesterday (even if there were more than just the 4 of them present) sounds like a double date.
> 
> Her behavior is incredibly lacking in empathy for how that would make you feel (i.e., unsafe).
> 
> Your common law wife is not some teenage girl that doesn't understand that her choices/behavior have consequences.


It's because she like flinging crap in his face proving to herself, she can do anything she wants.


----------



## wxman3441

So her best friend apparently popped by with a Xmas gift from her and the OM's brother. Interesting....


----------



## *Deidre*

Sometimes, one can become so used to being treated poorly, that it becomes normal. We normalize a lot of things just to stay sane. If you were to actually take action, your life would change drastically...not necessarily for the better at first. Your wife would be difficult to get a divorce from, it sounds like...so you would have a rough road to go, before you would be completely free from this headache. But, staying...is worse.

But, you see this as normal. You're too fearful to make a move, so you stay in this sick relationship. Your kid isn't learning anything by you staying, except that marriage is a farce, and filled with pretenses. 

I encourage you to seek legal advice, and a good therapist, and find a way out. But, you have to accept, that it won't be easy...but anything worth having, never is.


----------



## Tilted 1

*Deidre* said:


> Sometimes, one can become so used to being treated poorly, that it becomes normal. We normalize a lot of things just to stay sane. If you were to actually take action, your life would change drastically...not necessarily for the better at first. Your wife would be difficult to get a divorce from, it sounds like...so you would have a rough road to go, before you would be completely free from this headache. But, staying...is worse.
> 
> But, you see this as normal. You're too fearful to make a move, so you stay in this sick relationship. Your kid isn't learning anything by you staying, except that marriage is a farce, and filled with pretenses.
> 
> I encourage you to seek legal advice, and a good therapist, and find a way out. But, you have to accept, that it won't be easy...but anything worth having, never is.


I think he likes this drama, and it makes him feel alive.


----------



## wxman3441

*Deidre* said:


> Sometimes, one can become so used to being treated poorly, that it becomes normal. We normalize a lot of things just to stay sane. If you were to actually take action, your life would change drastically...not necessarily for the better at first. Your wife would be difficult to get a divorce from, it sounds like...so you would have a rough road to go, before you would be completely free from this headache. But, staying...is worse.
> 
> But, you see this as normal. You're too fearful to make a move, so you stay in this sick relationship. Your kid isn't learning anything by you staying, except that marriage is a farce, and filled with pretenses.
> 
> I encourage you to seek legal advice, and a good therapist, and find a way out. But, you have to accept, that it won't be easy...but anything worth having, never is.


Were not married but technically common law. She does a great job of twisting and turning things around and convincing me im the bad guy.


----------



## *Deidre*

Tilted 1 said:


> I think he likes this drama, and it makes him feel alive.


Yes, that's what he needs to figure out. why is that? Why does he want to stay in dysfunction? 

Did you grow up in dysfunction, OP? I think that can be the root cause of much of this. You simply don't know what normal looks like, and drama is exciting.

But, in this case, your wife doesn't seem to love you at all - with some of the other drama loving men on here, they want to seem like this white knight in their marriages, or the great rescuer. If their wives ''choose them,'' then they have ''won,'' some grand prize. Your wife doesn't love nor respect you - so you are not winning anything if she choose to stay with you. If she chooses you, like most wayward spouses, she's doing it for the lifestyle. Sorry, but that's why most wayward spouses return. There is a story I read on here a few days ago, where the betrayed spouse and the WS reconciled, and he posted something like ''there's nothing like putting the fear of divorce in your spouse to get them to change.'' lol As if this is some type of victory. 

This is why cheating will always be a deal breaker to me, personally. I don't want a husband who is afraid of divorce, but doesn't love me. But, I guess some betrayed spouses feel that coming in second place, is better than nothing. Just seems like a sad life, to me.


----------



## *Deidre*

wxman3441 said:


> Were not married but technically common law. She does a great job of twisting and turning things around and convincing me im the bad guy.


Yes, that's called gaslighting. You're involved and living with a narcissist, it sounds like. Sorry, I thought you were married. 

Narcissistic personality disorder is a real thing, and if you read up on it, you'll learn how to get free of one. It's not easy. I've dated narcissists in my past before getting married, and they are really tough to break free from, because they are master manipulators. But, what broke me free was working on me. Respecting me. You have to learn how to respect yourself and stop accepting abuse from her. Until you change, your situation won't change.

She won't change. If you're waiting on that to happen, it won't.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Jezuz, dude, NO WOMAN is worth all this bull****.


----------



## Robert22205

Did you speak with an attorney about what liability (if any) you have toward your common law wife?
Is there a separate bedroom where you can retreat to (or move her into) until she vacates the premises?

IMO she should move in immediately with her Bestie or Dave (since Dave has a big house). 

If you can’t stand up to her in a debate, then DO NOT debate.

Just inform her of your decision. You do not have to justify or defend your decision to end a relationship that's not working for you. Plus, there’s nothing left for you to say that you haven’t already said (she’s just ignored you). 

Prepare a generic response: I'm sorry you feel that way (or that you have a need to discuss x or y) but my decision is final.


----------



## Chuck71

3Xnocharm said:


> Jezuz, dude, NO WOMAN is worth all this bull****.


He probably doesn't think he will EVER find one "as hot" as her..... FATAL mistake when it concerns 

your emotions. Sadly I know a handful of guys who made that mistake. Every single guy got walked on OP.

If I allowed what he is I swear my pop would come up from the ground and knock the crap outta me.


----------



## SunCMars

wxman3441 said:


> Were not married but technically common law. She does a great job of twisting and turning things around and convincing me im the bad guy.


Ah, but you are the bad guy, in her eyes. 

Her eyes are both, right.

Your eyes are crossed, and wrong.

Of course she twists things around, this is her answer to your fears.

Need I spell out her answer?

Basically, it is, "Get over it, and suck it up".


----------



## Robert22205

What did your common law wife give her girlfriend for Xmas?

What did she give you for Xmas?

Do you know if she gave the OM a gift?

What are your plans for New Years Eve?


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

wxman3441 said:


> Look I get what many people are saying and I am not trying to ignore anyone's advice. At this point, I guess I am looking for clear evidence she truly desires him over me. I guess I have not found that yet but once I do, trust me I am gone. I feel confident that picture will come clear at some point.


Why does she need to desire him over you? She desires both of you, for different reasons. Stop waiting for her to make a choice, because her choice is to keep you waiting. Take back your power and make the choice for her. She clearly hasn't chosen to dump him and pick you.

To paraphrase the immortal words of Rush: _If she chooses not to decide, she still has made a choice._


----------



## wxman3441

See here is the issue: Her best friend, her boyfriend and Dave along with Dave's kids (who are friends with my partner's daughter) are all viewed as family. My partner grew very close to all of them and her best friend is seen as a package deal. So she is trying to convince me it is simply a case of her missing her family and she wants me to engage with said family.

Tomorrow is New Years Eve. Another mutual friend is having a party and I just learned Dave and others will be in attendance. I plan to go but am expecting possible drama if I drink too much. Am I really supposed to expect her to be a part of this family even though there was clearly feelings for someone in this family not long ago?

She has been spending more time there (Dave and his brother's house). The other night she asked me to come out with them and I refused. She didn't come home until 6am and I laid into her, called her every name in the book. She "needed a night out with her friends who she missed so much."


----------



## delupt

WX - There are a million single women standing right behind her ... a good percentage of them are completely rational, kind and perfectly lovely girls with dignity and integrity. 

It's not that hard ... go over and talk to one of them ... you'll be surprised how spending time with someone pleasant changes your perspective on your co-dependence.


----------



## Robert22205

Will there be dancing at the New Year's Eve party?

Was she drunk and/or high? Just the 4 of them again (aka: on a double date)? Where was she until 6am? Dave's house again?

Just a note: catching her in the act of coming in late would have been a good time to break up with her. Next time pop in on their party around 4AM and observe first hand 'who' your wife is partying with.

I get it that your wife views the 3 of them as family (and Dave is part of that package) - and therefore, your wife argues she can't go NC with Dave.

However, since Dave can not be separated from the 'family', then your wife permanently forfeited the right to engage with her 'family' when she romanticized her relationship with Dave. That's a consequence of your wife inappropriately romanticizing Dave. Do not let her blame you for the consequences of her ****ty behavior. 

Every partner (including your wife!) has a right to feel safe from infidelity.
She failed by romanticizing her relationship with Dave.
The only way she can fix this is to go NC with Dave.

Your reality is that based on her behavior: she's picking her 'family' over making you feel safe from infidelity.


----------



## Robert22205

Just a reminder. As tempting as it is to take your anger out on Dave. None of this is Dave's fault. This is entirely your wife's responsibility.

If you need more proof or need to see them being intimate. 

On New Year's Eve, don't drink. Don't attend the party with her. Instead, show up much later (quietly) after they're all drunk/high - and 'surprise' her.

Alternatively, attend the party with her (don't drink) and leave early - and circle back later to 'surprise' her.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Just a reminder. As tempting as it is to take your anger out on Dave. None of this is Dave's fault. This is entirely your wife's responsibility.
> 
> If you need more proof or need to see them being intimate.
> 
> On New Year's Eve, don't drink. Don't attend the party with her. Instead, show up much later (quietly) after they're all drunk/high - and 'surprise' her.
> 
> Alternatively, attend the party with her (don't drink) and leave early - and circle back later to 'surprise' her.


She doesnt want to go now, she is afraid of a possible fallout.


----------



## Robert22205

In her words, what specific dynamic does she see as causing a fall out?

Did she say that Dave would be sitting at the table (or stand in a group) chatting, flirting, or asking your wife to dance?
Or is it just your presence at the party that's the issue - because you are jealous, controlling and unreasonable???

IMO, this is her typical behavior (and yours too):

1- you get angry at her suspicious & disrespectful behavior (e.g., being out all night or contact with Dave). Under the circumstances and your discussions, staying out all night should never (never) have happened. 

She plays dumb and responds: I didn't know Dave would be there; I didn't know it would upset you; nothing happened; you can trust me; or you're being a jackass/jealous. 

The problem with repeatedly just complaining (and bluffing about breaking up) is she's learned how far she can push you. She knows from past experience that you'll all bark (and no bite) and that in time she can resume her life of a single girl.

2 - Now she offers to not go to the party and blames you because you're angry over Dave. THIS is her consistent strategy to manipulate you and make you feel guilty (like you're the cause of her not enjoying life). She did this previously after you insisted on NC (it was you not her that caused her to be unhappy). She plays the victim and makes a great personal sacrifice of NC - but all the time knowing that you will eventually feel guilty and she can resume her single life.

3 - Your common law wife as made zero progress in making herself safe. This BS ends when you've had enough.


----------



## BluesPower

wxman3441 said:


> She doesnt want to go now, she is afraid of a possible fallout.


Good grief, if there has not been any fallout yet, there never will be... 

I really hope that you are able to wake up at some point. Good luck.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> In her words, what specific dynamic does she see as causing a fall out?
> 
> Did she say that Dave would be sitting at the table (or stand in a group) chatting, flirting, or asking your wife to dance?
> Or is it just your presence at the party that's the issue - because you are jealous, controlling and unreasonable???
> 
> IMO, this is her typical behavior (and yours too):
> 
> 1- you get angry at her suspicious & disrespectful behavior (e.g., being out all night or contact with Dave). Under the circumstances and your discussions, staying out all night should never (never) have happened.
> 
> She plays dumb and responds: I didn't know Dave would be there; I didn't know it would upset you; nothing happened; you can trust me; or you're being a jackass/jealous.
> 
> The problem with repeatedly just complaining (and bluffing about breaking up) is she's learned how far she can push you. She knows from past experience that you'll all bark (and no bite) and that in time she can resume her life of a single girl.
> 
> 2 - Now she offers to not go to the party and blames you because you're angry over Dave. THIS is her consistent strategy to manipulate you and make you feel guilty (like you're the cause of her not enjoying life). She did this previously after you insisted on NC (it was you not her that caused her to be unhappy). She plays the victim and makes a great personal sacrifice of NC - but all the time knowing that you will eventually feel guilty and she can resume her single life.
> 
> 3 - Your common law wife as made zero progress in making herself safe. This BS ends when you've had enough.


She wont go as far as flirting or dancing with Dave in front of me. She knows she pretty much done if that happens. She just wants to have a "good time with me and friends".


----------



## Robert22205

Does your common law wife know that you are considering breaking up over her continuing contact/behavior with Dave?
Does she believe that you won't break up as long as you don't catch her being intimate with Dave?
Does she believe that you except her excuses for contact (ranging from he's family to it's beyond her control)?

I'm sorry she chose to stay out all night (especially if she knew your relationship is on thin ice). 

She seems to be ok with pushing your buttons (maybe even enjoys making you jealous). Unfortunately, she appears to believe that you won't dump her as long as you don't actually see her being intimate with Dave. 

As a safe partner, (and after all that's happened) at a minimum she should be taking the initiative to:
- not stay out all night partying
- not party (ever) when Dave is present or nearby
- not ever hang out at Dave's house
- avoid Dave like an STD
- label him as a POS that almost destroyed her relationship with you


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Does your common law wife know that you are considering breaking up over her continuing contact/behavior with Dave?
> Does she believe that you won't break up as long as you don't catch her being intimate with Dave?
> Does she believe that you except her excuses for contact (ranging from he's family to it's beyond her control)?
> 
> I'm sorry she chose to stay out all night (especially if she knew your relationship is on thin ice).
> 
> She seems to be ok with pushing your buttons (maybe even enjoys making you jealous). Unfortunately, she appears to believe that you won't dump her as long as you don't actually see her being intimate with Dave.
> 
> As a safe partner, (and after all that's happened) at a minimum she should be taking the initiative to:
> - not stay out all night partying
> - not party (ever) when Dave is present or nearby
> - not ever hang out at Dave's house
> - avoid Dave like an STD
> - label him as a POS that almost destroyed her relationship with you


She thinks what happened with Dave was so innocent but mostly, she "needs" her best friend and to see her Dave will sometimes be present. 

I practically broke up with her a few months ago over all of this and she begged for us to work it out. She knows I wont tolerate much more so I am not sure why she would risk it.


----------



## Prodigal

wxman3441 said:


> I practically broke up with her a few months ago over all of this and she begged for us to work it out. She knows I wont tolerate much more so I am not sure why she would risk it.


My guess is because she considers any/all threats you make to be bogus. After all, you've tolerated enough outrageous behavior already and you're still spinning your wheels.

Nah, you aren't going anywhere unless you make a surprise visit and actually find her boinking ole' Dave.


----------



## Robert22205

Did she read the book: Not Just Friends by Dr Shirley Glass?
Did you agree with her that she 'needs' to see her Bestie - and that Dave will sometimes be present??
Why does her need to see the Bestie include a private setting (his home) where it appears like a double date???

Where was she until 6am? Was Dave there?

Thoughts:

After the pain she caused you, I'm sorry to hear that she still thinks it was innocent. Plus people can't/won't fix what they don't acknowledge as the problem. 

She does not agree with you that her behavior is inappropriate so she stalls for time hoping you'll suck it up, blames you for NC with her Bestie, and continues to act single. As long as she thinks or refuses to recognize that her EA (or PA) with Dave was innocent, you can not heal and feel safe with her.

It's what you 'think' about her relationship with Dave that should drive her behavior. 

'Working it out' isn't a joint effort requiring anything from you. It just means you gave her a second chance to restore the trust that she destroyed by acting like a single woman with Dave.


----------



## manwithnoname

wxman3441 said:


> She doesnt want to go now, she is afraid of a possible fallout.


She does want to go. She's waiting for your permission, which you undoubtedly will give. You will insist she go, as you have in the past in similar situations.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Did she read the book: Not Just Friends by Dr Shirley Glass?
> Did you agree with her that she 'needs' to see her Bestie - and that Dave will sometimes be present??
> Why does her need to see the Bestie include a private setting (his home) where it appears like a double date???
> 
> Where was she until 6am? Was Dave there?
> 
> Thoughts:
> 
> After the pain she caused you, I'm sorry to hear that she still thinks it was innocent. Plus people can't/won't fix what they don't acknowledge as the problem.
> 
> She does not agree with you that her behavior is inappropriate so she stalls for time hoping you'll suck it up, blames you for NC with her Bestie, and continues to act single. As long as she thinks or refuses to recognize that her EA (or PA) with Dave was innocent, you can not heal and feel safe with her.
> 
> It's what you 'think' about her relationship with Dave that should drive her behavior.
> 
> 'Working it out' isn't a joint effort requiring anything from you. It just means you gave her a second chance to restore the trust that she destroyed by acting like a single woman with Dave.


She was at the house where Dave lives until 6am. Yes he was there. There were a few others there but he was too. Drinking and drugs were taking place. 

I don't want her to lose her beast friend over it but her friend seems to have a hard time with coming over our our house or meeting my partner at a neutral site. I have no doubts she is and would sabotage the relationship.


----------



## Marc878

wxman3441 said:


> She was at the house where Dave lives until 6am. Yes he was there. There were a few others there but he was too. Drinking and drugs were taking place.
> 
> *I don't want her to lose her beast friend over it but her friend seems to have a hard time with coming over our our house or meeting my partner at a neutral site. I have no doubts she is and would sabotage the relationship.*


Bud with contact it'll never end. You really want to live life looking over your shoulder?

Her friend and that relationship means more to her than you.

Wake up to where you are


----------



## Nucking Futs

wxman3441 said:


> She was at the house where Dave lives until 6am. Yes he was there. There were a few others there but he was too. Drinking and drugs were taking place.
> 
> I don't want her to lose her beast (lol) friend over it but her friend seems to have a hard time with coming over our our house or meeting my partner at a neutral site. I have no doubts she is and would sabotage the relationship.


You've got three choices. You force her to end all contact with her "friends", you end all contact with her, or you accept the cuckold lifestyle. So far you're sticking with option 3.


----------



## Robert22205

I understand that after discussing your requirements, you're stepping back and giving your wife freedom to prove whether she can act safe and protect her relationship with you.

Have you ever attended an all night party at Dave's house? Generally, most parties end with people forming couples (do you agree?).

Who else was at Dave's house the night of the party? Let's assume Dave (or someone else) is a normal healthy single male and wants to get laid. Everyone is high. Is your wife one of the most likely prospects??

How does her staying out all night (at Dave's house) make you feel? If she danced, kissed, hugged (or more) with Dave, how would you know?

Based on previous discussions between you two, does your wife agree or at least understand that her behavior last night (with or without sex with Dave) is pushing you towards breaking up? That this is more than about just Dave .... but her life style where she stays out all night partying like a single girl.

IMO, your wife (and her surrogate family) are pretty old for this regular booze and drugs life style. Most people grow up at some point and realize it's self destructive (even more so as you age). 

IMO, her Best friend isn't a 'friend'. If she was a true friend she wouldn't encourage behavior that will break up your relationship.
Clearly the Best friend does not encourage the best version of your wife (just the opposite).

IMO, the two women are co dependent in a destructive way that validates each other's worse version of themselves. Neither act as true friends. As a friend, your wife should advise her Bestie to dump the man that beat her (that's a deal breaker); and back it up by never seeing the Bestie again until she breaks up with Dave's brother (the man that beats her).

IMO, I'm also guessing that Dave or his brother is the source of the drugs - and that's why their house is the regular 'party' location. 

Therefore, you should not hesitate or waiver with respect to your requirement for zero contact with Dave. 

If the best friend can't meet your wife on neutral ground then that's the Bestie's decision (it's not your fault) and the Bestie will suffer the consequences.

I'm guessing the Bestie insists on meeting at Dave's house (instead of a public location) so they can use drugs (and do anything else) in private.
In other words, there is no valid reason that your wife ever has to step foot in Dave's house.


----------



## Malaise

She sees OM and does drugs on a regular basis and you need advice from internet strangers on what to do?


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> I understand that after discussing your requirements, you're stepping back and giving your wife freedom to prove whether she can act safe and protect her relationship with you.
> 
> Have you ever attended an all night party at Dave's house? Generally, most parties end with people forming couples (do you agree?).
> 
> No, I've been over there many times but never stayed there past 2am.
> 
> Who else was at Dave's house the night of the party? Let's assume Dave (or someone else) is a normal healthy single male and wants to get laid. Everyone is high. Is your wife one of the most likely prospects??
> 
> To my knowledge, my partner's younger sister (single but only 22, Dave is 45), a married male friend, a single female friend (30) and my partner's best friend and her abuser boyfriend.
> 
> How does her staying out all night (at Dave's house) make you feel? If she danced, kissed, hugged (or more) with Dave, how would you know?
> 
> I would never ask her to not have a social life but I told her a while back, staying out that late is not acceptable behavior for a woman who is in a committed 7 year relationship. I have no idea what went on probably chatting but who knows. I don't think she would run off and cheat with Dave with her baby sister there though IMO.
> 
> Based on previous discussions between you two, does your wife agree or at least understand that her behavior last night (with or without sex with Dave) is pushing you towards breaking up? That this is more than about just Dave .... but her life style where she stays out all night partying like a single girl.
> 
> Yes she knows this. She screwed up and just wanted a fun night out.
> 
> IMO, your wife (FYI, we're not legally married, just common law) (and her surrogate family) are pretty old for this regular booze and drugs life style. Most people grow up at some point and realize it's self destructive (even more so as you age).
> 
> I agree, best friend is 35 like her, and Dave and his brother are in their 40s. Don't get me wrong, I like an occasional night with boozing but I only need it once every few weeks. My partner is very social but she doesn't seem content on many nights in the house.
> 
> IMO, her Best friend isn't a 'friend'. If she was a true friend she wouldn't encourage behavior that will break up your relationship.
> Clearly the Best friend does not encourage the best version of your wife (just the opposite).
> 
> I agree, in fairness her best friend has been through a lot, aka grew up in and out of foster care and experienced a lot of sexual and physical violence. This is the same woman who initiated a threesome with my partner and I a few years ago. She has lived a risky lifestyle and I can't say I trust her. She has been sober for a few months now but I wonder if that will stick. Part of me wonders if she secretly desires my partner to end up with Dave so they can be dating both brothers.
> 
> IMO, the two women are co dependent in a destructive way that validates each other's worse version of themselves. Neither act as true friends. As a friend, your wife should advise her Bestie to dump the man that beat her (that's a deal breaker); and back it up by never seeing the Bestie again until she breaks up with Dave's brother (the man that beats her).
> 
> She did try and convince her friend to leave after the violence but she keeps going back and she is just trying to support her.
> 
> IMO, I'm also guessing that Dave or his brother is the source of the drugs - and that's why their house is the regular 'party' location.
> 
> Possibly, her siblings are into drugs and have addiction issues and that has caused us problems in the past so it may have came from them as well.
> 
> Therefore, you should not hesitate or waiver with respect to your requirement for zero contact with Dave.
> 
> There was zero contact for a while and I tried to do the right thing and ask her to just go over there since she missed her best friend so much. Mistake.
> 
> If the best friend can't meet your wife on neutral ground then that's the Bestie's decision (it's not your fault) and the Bestie will suffer the consequences.
> 
> I am still struggling why this can't happen.
> 
> I'm guessing the Bestie insists on meeting at Dave's house (instead of a public location) so they can use drugs (and do anything else) in private.
> In other words, there is no valid reason that your wife ever has to step foot in Dave's house.


Pretty much, but she considers them "Family" and she has grown close with Dave's young daughters, the youngest of which is close friends with my partner's daughter (13). Despite my desire for her to have NC with Dave, I did say they can communicate as parents when the kids want to hang out together.


----------



## Malaise

wxman3441 said:


> Pretty much, but *she considers them "Family"* and she has grown close with Dave's young daughters, the youngest of which is close friends with my partner's daughter (13). Despite my desire for her to have NC with Dave, I did say they can communicate as parents when the kids want to hang out together.


What does she consider you?

Stop making excuses for her.


----------



## manwithnoname

Summary: 

She's cheating (obvious)
She desires him over you
She's hooked on the drugs and whatever else he provides her with
She knows you won't do anything about it

You're waiting to uncover a sex tape or for a confession?

Probably likes the financial support you provide.

Zero respect for you.

Make it a New Year's Resolution to free yourself from this Bull ****


----------



## Robert22205

How long have you and your wife been attending these parties at Dave's house? When you leave early, does your wife usually stay alone?

Not everyone has a daily addiction which is easy to observe. Some people can go a couple of weeks and gradually get more and more edgy - until then have to binge or have an all nighter to blow off steam. Is that your wife? Is it possible that her 'need' to see the Bestie is a convenient excuse to roll all night until she's exhausted (and consume excess alcohol or drugs)? Specifically, all your wife's friends and family seem to have addiction problems - does she?? 

I'm not an attorney but I understand that in Canada a common law wife has financial 'rights' that accumulate with each year. 
Therefore, if she's not long term partner material, you should exit sooner than later.

1 - In any event, if you stay with her, speak with an attorney about protecting yourself with some sort of written domestic agreement covering what happens when you break up.

IMO, based on what you've shared, I think her 'family' is a mutual admiration society of losers (with little self control) that get together regularly to validate and cheer each other up.

IMO your wife and all her 'family' act like kids with very little self control - and do what feels good at the moment. As with kids, she can only apply bright lines like yes, no, or never. Any gray area is a doorway (or bowl of candy) that she can't resist (e.g., she needed a night out of fun). Her 'fun' being drugged or drunk over night with a bunch of losers. 

2 - She enjoys the home you provide, but she doesn't have your back. Among other things, your wife's behavior shows a lack of empathy for you. This is very serious because a person's actions always speak louder than words. A person's actions show who they really are. She chose her 'fun' vs hurting you & your need to feel safe and/or respected.


----------



## MyRevelation

Probably time for us to stop wasting our time. OP is in this situation because he chooses to be. Remember what we’ve all learned ... actions over words. Regardless of what OP claims, his actions (or lack thereof) tell the true story.


----------



## SunCMars

We are living your life through our eyes, and living your wife's life through ours, again.

From what we see, you are suffering this rot, your wife is presently enjoying life's lot.

All, at your expense.


She has it made, her life is hot, then cool. 
You have been made this, her old fool.

Her little sister is likely (true) getting high, and is probably being distracted by some thick pipe dream.

When drunk, when high, she would not know if the room were on fire unless her own clothes caught fire.

The little sister is being groomed, likely has been made into that high minded person.

And, all this on your watch.



Nemesis-


----------



## SunCMars

Your girlfriend lives for today, for actual highs, for likely sighs.
If not, why would she bother?

You live for better tomorrow's, none are promised, not one delivered.


The Typist I-


----------



## SunCMars

You have run out of excuses, just scupper her.
Let her sink.

Let your GF scuffle with, suffer her transgressions. 


King Brian-


----------



## SunCMars

The thing is....

When you leave this sad dear, you should just move out, taking only what it is you need.

Since there is no contract of marriage, there is no real bond. 

The law will not get involved unless she makes the call. 

Take your chances, let her sue you later, for whatever.

Later, may never arrive. I give that bet a good score.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> How long have you and your wife been attending these parties at Dave's house? When you leave early, does your wife usually stay alone?
> 
> I have not been at that house since I found out she had a crush on Dave which was in early October. In the past we usually left together but there was one case where she stayed all night.
> 
> Not everyone has a daily addiction which is easy to observe. Some people can go a couple of weeks and gradually get more and more edgy - until then have to binge or have an all nighter to blow off steam. Is that your wife? Is it possible that her 'need' to see the Bestie is a convenient excuse to roll all night until she's exhausted (and consume excess alcohol or drugs)? Specifically, all your wife's friends and family seem to have addiction problems - does she??
> 
> 
> Im not aware of her having a drug problem like her family members. She will do a line of coke on occasion which I am not a fan of.
> 
> I'm not an attorney but I understand that in Canada a common law wife has financial 'rights' that accumulate with each year.
> Therefore, if she's not long term partner material, you should exit sooner than later.
> 
> 1 - In any event, if you stay with her, speak with an attorney about protecting yourself with some sort of written domestic agreement covering what happens when you break up.
> 
> I plan to do that on the 2nd.
> 
> IMO, based on what you've shared, I think her 'family' is a mutual admiration society of losers (with little self control) that get together regularly to validate and cheer each other up.
> 
> Quite possible. Dave owns a business and his brother is working on his PhD so it is not like they are doing nothing with their lives but something does seem off with that whole family.
> 
> IMO your wife and all her 'family' act like kids with very little self control - and do what feels good at the moment. As with kids, she can only apply bright lines like yes, no, or never. Any gray area is a doorway (or bowl of candy) that she can't resist (e.g., she needed a night out of fun). Her 'fun' being drugged or drunk over night with a bunch of losers.
> 
> This is especially true with her siblings who will spend what little money they have on booze, smokes and pot then constantly come to my partner for money. They are already getting many of their bills paid by their mother's long time boyfriend which blows my mind. My partner is a bit more responsible but inst great with money. She makes a respectable salary yet is constantly broke. She gets so offended when I call her on this.
> 
> 2 - She enjoys the home you provide, but she doesn't have your back. Among other things, your wife's behavior shows a lack of empathy for you. This is very serious because a person's actions always speak louder than words. A person's actions show who they really are. She chose her 'fun' vs hurting you & your need to feel safe and/or respected.



I have felt for a long time that I am the "safe choice". I don't think she would ever leave me for Dave because Dave likely would not tolerate her irresponsible siblings or help support her daughter. As I said before, I do not doubt she loves me but I have been shown many signs that she would not walk through fire for me and it is why I don't think I could ever marry her.


----------



## Tron

wxman3441 said:


> I have felt for a long time that I am the "safe choice". I don't think she would ever leave me for Dave because Dave likely would not tolerate her irresponsible siblings or help support her daughter. As I said before, I do not doubt she loves me but I have been shown many signs that she would not walk through fire for me and it is why I don't think I could ever marry her.


And yet...you are "common law" married to her.

With all the disrespect, the lack of good qualities, the bad family history, the drug use, the drinking, and the crappy friends she won't leave behind, you still keep her around.

The "love" she's offering you isn't enough for a lifetime commitment. 

Move on.


----------



## Robert22205

Check your private messages?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I wonder if you two accepting the threesome broke your marriage. Some couples it works, others it does not. Heck, it kind of explains some of your issues.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Check your private messages?


Yes, did you send one?


----------



## SunCMars

wxman3441 said:


> I have felt for a long time that I am the "safe choice". I don't think she would ever leave me for Dave because Dave likely would not tolerate her irresponsible siblings or help support her daughter. As I said before, I do not doubt she loves me but I have been shown many signs that she would not walk through fire for me and it is why I don't think I could ever marry her.


A very honest post.
A post standing out from some of your others, those falling and leaning over for lack of substantive reality. 


This love of hers that you tout, it is thin.
Thinly applied to your backside.
She does not have your back or your best interests at heart.

You seem to have a good handle on Dave. I think you are mistaken.
Remember, this woman, this GF of yours has been 'good enough' for you, why would she not be 'good enough' for Dave?
As a GF, not as a wife. As a friend with benefits. 

Her status would remain the same, only with a different partner.
I think this GF of yours is hedging her bets, and having fun at the same time.

You give yourself too much credit and worth (in her eyes).
Those eyes of hers are crossed.

You say this Dave would not tolerate her irresponsible siblings, yet, he is willing to tolerate your GF's behavior.
He knows she is also irresponsible, this GF of yours, yet that does not prevent him from bedding her.

I believe he has. None of us can prove it.

Good luck tomorrow with the Canadian solicitor.


KB-

This gf of yours likely senses that you are not going to marry her, so she plays both sides to her advantage.
Why give up her friends and family for a guy she suspects will not marry.

You are temporary, until you propose, then marry. 

Her friends and family?
She wears them like a ring of security.
They love her for who she is..... a loose bet.


----------



## wxman3441

SunCMars said:


> A very honest post.
> A post standing out from some of your others, those falling and leaning over for lack of substantive reality.
> 
> 
> This love of hers that you tout, it is thin.
> Thinly applied to your backside.
> She does not have your back or your best interests at heart.
> 
> You seem to have a good handle on Dave. I think you are mistaken.
> Remember, this woman, this GF of yours has been 'good enough' for you, why would she not be 'good enough' for Dave?
> As a GF, not as a wife. As a friend with benefits.
> 
> Her status would remain the same, only with a different partner.
> I think this GF of yours is hedging her bets, and having fun at the same time.
> 
> You give yourself too much credit and worth (in her eyes).
> Those eyes of hers are crossed.
> 
> You say this Dave would not tolerate her irresponsible siblings, yet, he is willing to tolerate your GF's behavior.
> He knows she is also irresponsible, this GF of yours, yet that does not prevent him from bedding her.
> 
> I believe he has. None of us can prove it.
> 
> Good luck tomorrow with the Canadian solicitor.
> 
> 
> KB-
> 
> This gf of yours likely senses that you are not going to marry her, so she plays both sides to her advantage.
> Why give up her friends and family for a guy she suspects will not marry.
> 
> You are temporary, until you propose, then marry.
> 
> Her friends and family?
> She wears them like a ring of security.
> They love her for who she is..... a loose bet.


Yes, the whole situation is strange. For instance, her best friend and her bf (abuser) came by for dinner tonight and as I was leaving for work, my partner put some leftovers in a tin for me and also mentioned she was putting some away for Dave. Maybe I am an idiot, but why would she admit that in front of me if Dave is nothing more than a friend or family member and no longer a threat?


----------



## Nucking Futs

wxman3441 said:


> Yes, the whole situation is strange. For instance, her best friend and her bf (abuser) came by for dinner tonight and as I was leaving for work, my partner put some leftovers in a tin for me and also mentioned she was putting some away for Dave. Maybe I am an idiot, but why would she admit that in front of me if Dave is nothing more than a friend or family member and no longer a threat?


At best she sees you and Dave as equals.


----------



## BluesPower

wxman3441 said:


> Yes, the whole situation is strange. For instance, her best friend and her bf (abuser) came by for dinner tonight and as I was leaving for work, my partner put some leftovers in a tin for me and also mentioned she was putting some away for Dave. Maybe I am an idiot, but why would she admit that in front of me if Dave is nothing more than a friend or family member and no longer a threat?


No it is not unusual. She has you and a BF, Just like everyone else here has said...

What is the deal, why wont you acknowledge reality??????


----------



## Robert22205

Thanks for the information you provided in the private message. Now I'm not so worried about you.

Is there any reason for her to assume that you are no longer considering breaking up or she has a green light with respect to Dave?
Why was she even thinking about Dave (were they talking about 'poor' Dave?? 
How does she plan to deliver the food to Dave???

I'm sorry to hear she put food away for Dave. 
By putting food away for Dave ...she basically packed a **** sandwich for you to take to work tonight. 

You needed more evidence and you're getting it. At least you don't have to hire a PI to figure out what's going on in her head. 

Continue to focus on her actions (not her excuses or words). When someone shows you through their actions what's going on in their head - believe it.

Among other things her actions once again show absolutely no empathy for you and the pain her behavior causes you. 

Regardless of whether she's clueless, impulsive or just plain takes you for granted (and in spite of everything you guys have been through over Dave) she once again shows an inappropriate level of concern/interest for Dave. 

IMO, it sounds like she's in a fog (read up on limerence) and really obsessed with Dave. Unfortunately for her, Dave doesn't want her moving in with him. 

I think (after you talk with the attorney) when you decide to dump her - it should be a fast break with absolutely no advance warning or further discussion.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Thanks for the information you provided in the private message. Now I'm not so worried about you.
> 
> Is there any reason for her to assume that you are no longer considering breaking up or she has a green light with respect to Dave?
> Why was she even thinking about Dave (were they talking about 'poor' Dave??
> How does she plan to deliver the food to Dave???
> 
> I'm sorry to hear she put food away for Dave.
> By putting food away for Dave ...she basically packed a **** sandwich for you to take to work tonight.
> 
> You needed more evidence and you're getting it. At least you don't have to hire a PI to figure out what's going on in her head.
> 
> Continue to focus on her actions (not her excuses or words). When someone shows you through their actions what's going on in their head - believe it.
> 
> Among other things her actions once again show absolutely no empathy for you and the pain her behavior causes you.
> 
> Regardless of whether she's clueless, impulsive or just plain takes you for granted (and in spite of everything you guys have been through over Dave) she once again shows an inappropriate level of concern/interest for Dave.
> 
> IMO, it sounds like she's in a fog (read up on limerence) and really obsessed with Dave. Unfortunately for her, Dave doesn't want her moving in with him.
> 
> I think (after you talk with the attorney) when you decide to dump her - it should be a fast break with absolutely no advance warning or further discussion.


Dave's brother and partner's best friend were there for dinner so they brought the food home to him.


----------



## manwithnoname

​


wxman3441 said:


> Dave's brother and partner's best friend were there for dinner so they brought the food home to him.


Why are you supporting Dave now?

Ask yourself one thing, and answer honestly, what would she do if Dave wanted to support her and her kid and they all move in together?

That should be enough right there for anyone not to want to stay in that situation.


----------



## SunCMars

As mentioned...

She is hedging her bets.

She is keeping Dave in the loop.

And:

a) She is letting you know that she has 'other' options. 

b) She is telling you, that you had better be on your game.

c) She knows you hate secrecy, and knows you want to know anything that she does with dear Dave. *This semi-honesty is done to keep the peace.*

d) There is a an unknown amount of fear/guilt, in that, she fears losing you for her actions. This does not prevent her from her doing this 'stupid' balancing act with Dave.


She is a fool. She needs to get her priorities straight. 
Oh, then again, maybe she is. :|


KB-


----------



## Robert22205

wxman3441 ....how's it going? 

Are you still in 'observation' mode with respect to your wife's relationship with Dave? 

Did you get a chance to speak with the attorney?

As painful as this mess is...you are not alone.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> wxman3441 ....how's it going?
> 
> Are you still in 'observation' mode with respect to your wife's relationship with Dave?
> 
> Did you get a chance to speak with the attorney?
> 
> As painful as this mess is...you are not alone.


Yes keeping a close eye on things. She was there the other day, helping to set up a trapper's tent. We go into it again after a night of drinking last night. I had to leave to go to work and she stayed out. Dave and that crew weren't there at least. I texted her a couple nasty things. The fallout is she claims she is going to give up drinking and wants us to try and new counselor. I'll need to see results to believe them.


----------



## Robert22205

Setting up a trapper's tent at Dave's house? Was Dave present? Why was her participation necessary (or was she just having fun).

Couple's counseling is a waste of time. Why? because she's the one that's broke (drinking among other things). First she needs to fix herself before you guys can fix the relationship.

She still does not accept responsibility for her behavior and it's impact on your relationship - and (by suggesting counseling) is actually blaming you (as if you're being unreasonable).

I'm surprised she still thinks that her relationship with Dave is negotiable and something that you'll 'accept' with counseling.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Setting up a trapper's tent at Dave's house? Was Dave present? Why was her participation necessary (or was she just having fun).
> 
> Mostly wanted to get out of the house. I don't think Dave was there most of the day but may have showed up before she left.
> 
> Couple's counseling is a waste of time. Why? because she's the one that's broke (drinking among other things). First she needs to fix herself before you guys can fix the relationship.
> 
> Yea she did mention seeing a counselor herself which I think needs to happen. I have been seeing one myself for 7 years.
> 
> She still does not accept responsibility for her behavior and it's impact on your relationship - and (by suggesting counseling) is actually blaming you (as if you're being unreasonable).
> 
> She actually pulled out of counseling a while back and now wants to start it again. Shockingly, she did admit she has made mistakes and caused me pain.
> 
> I'm surprised she still thinks that her relationship with Dave is negotiable and something that counseling will resolve.


She seems to be leaning toward not going over there anymore. We will see if that sticks....


----------



## Robert22205

Who does Dave date? 

Maybe she's beginning to realize that Dave's not interested in living with her.

IMO her inappropriate behavior is about boundaries in general (among other things) and not just limited to Dave.

Did you have her read: "Not Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass?
That would save a lot of therapy sessions.


----------



## wxman3441

I do not believe that Dave is dating anybody. 

I do not know if the post still exists but I made a post about 8 years ago about my ex wife who’s behaviour was very similar ie staying out late with friends, not respecting boundaries etc. It is drumming up some horrible feelings.


----------



## Robert22205

I'm sorry that you are repeatedly triggering. You were devastated when you discovered the 'EA' with Dave. Every time (no exceptions) she has contact with Dave or expresses concern for Dave or does a favor for Dave or goes to his house or stays out all night - her behavior triggers the initial devastation of discovering her betrayal with Dave. 

Ouch .... I'm sorry to hear that all this time Dave was not dating anyone. 

Is there any reason that Dave and your common law wife would not find each other sexually attractive? 

Have you discussed her relationship with Dave with your IC? If so, what did he say?

Was it solely your wife's idea to pack up some food for Dave?

IMO every partner has a right to feel safe from infidelity. Even without your past experience with infidelity, your common law wife not only failed but (in spite of your discussions about what you need, including giving her repeated second chances) continues to come up with excuses for behavior (every week) that would make anyone feel unsafe. 

I've mentioned before that the 4 of them together (in public or at Dave's house ...with or without anyone else present) sure sounds like a double date. Dave would be the 3rd wheel without your wife. Sometimes they add a 5th or 6th to the party group but their core social unit is: Your common law wife & Dave and the Bestie & Dave's brother. This arrangement is totally unfair to you and undermines any attempt to rebuild trust.

Under the circumstances and in view of the texts you discovered (including her arranging to be alone with Dave), I'm amazed that your wife thinks you'd ever be ok with her having any further contact with Dave (for any reason!). 

She has no excuse for allowing you to be destroyed by her contact with Dave. If she truly valued your relationship, she should have voluntarily distanced herself from him (and shouting it from the roof tops). Instead, it's just the opposite. As I've said before: judge her by her actions not her words.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> I'm sorry that you are repeatedly triggering. You were devastated when you discovered the 'EA' with Dave. Every time (no exceptions) she has contact with Dave or expresses concern for Dave or does a favor for Dave or goes to his house or stays out all night - her behavior triggers the initial devastation of discovering her betrayal with Dave.
> 
> Ouch .... I'm sorry to hear that all this time Dave was not dating anyone.
> 
> I’m not 100 percent sure but I don’t think he is seeing anyone.
> 
> Is there any reason that Dave and your common law wife would not find each other sexually attractive?
> 
> She said that her interest in him was never physical. I guess the conversations they had got her interested.
> 
> Have you discussed her relationship with Dave with your IC? If so, what did he say?
> 
> I have. Based on what I told her, she is not convinced that my partner had a physical or even an emotional affair. She did recommend no contact though moving forward.
> 
> Was it solely your wife's idea to pack up some food for Dave?
> 
> Not sure.
> 
> IMO every partner has a right to feel safe from infidelity. Even without your past experience with infidelity, your common law wife not only failed but (in spite of your discussions about what you need, including giving her repeated second chances) continues to come up with excuses for behavior (every week) that would make anyone feel unsafe.
> 
> Very true.
> 
> I've mentioned before that the 4 of them together (in public or at Dave's house ...with or without anyone else present) sure sounds like a double date. Dave would be the 3rd wheel without your wife. Sometimes they add a 5th or 6th to the party group but their core social unit is: Your common law wife & Dave and the Bestie & Dave's brother. This arrangement is totally unfair to you and undermines any attempt to rebuild trust.
> 
> Under the circumstances and in view of the texts you discovered (including her arranging to be alone with Dave), I'm amazed that your wife thinks you'd ever be ok with her having any further contact with Dave (for any reason!).
> 
> She has no excuse for allowing you to be destroyed by her contact with Dave. If she truly valued your relationship, she should have voluntarily distanced herself from him (and shouting it from the roof tops). Instead, it's just the opposite. As I've said before: judge her by her actions not her words.


Agreed. I would think she would want to stay far away from him. I think she misses his “friendship” but she needs to understand that shouldn’t happen.


----------



## Robert22205

"... she is not convinced that my partner had a physical or even an emotional affair. She did recommend no contact though moving forward."

Was your therapist aware of the instances where your common law wife intentionally discouraged you from attending activities so that she could interact with Dave without you present?? 

Did your therapist actually defend her opinion by explaining why she was not convinced it was neither a PA or EA? For example, did she provide examples of (missing) evidence that would convince her of a PA or EA? 

Is there any chance your therapist minimized your wife's behavior in an effort to help you move on ... accept/process it and give your wife another chance (because your therapist thought it's what you wanted in the short term...)?


----------



## Robert22205

"I think she misses his “friendship” but she needs to understand that shouldn’t happen."
Is it that she doesn't understand it shouldn't happen or is it that she can't go NC?

The above is a very deep and powerful emotional statement but has no true existence in reality without specifics.

For example, has she shared 'what' they talk about that's so special and unique (other than raising a kid)? Dave is not the only person in town with a teenage daughter. 

Can you list 3 things she gets from Dave or talks about with Dave - that she can't with you ... (or someone else that is not a potential lover)?


----------



## jlg07

Look, here is the thing -- SHE HAS ALREADY admitted to finding him attractive. YOU need to set the boundaries that she CANNOT be in a situation where she is around him without you there, and should really not be around him AT ALL. Her "gf" should be able to meet her someplace that DAVE will not be around. There is NO REASON AT ALL for her to be around this guy. If you allow this, you put your relationship at peril -- you also need to have REAL honest consequences to her if she DOES continue to be around him. YOU should not be putting yourself through this.


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## 3Xnocharm

Why are you ok with allowing a woman to crap on you like this? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sparta

I don’t think there’s any help this guy.! wow dude you just don’t get the clues that are just smacking in the face. OK I get you don’t have any self respect for yourself. Does it bother you that these people are possibly just laughing at you. Like the whole town or her friends are in on it and do you not have your best interest at hand and don’t expect them to show any respect whatsoever in fact they have got to be laughing at you.! I’m almost positive these people see you as you’re the biggest joke in town. You’re the towns as the head comedian. Your relationship is the headliner show your girlfriends sexual relationship with Dave and everybody knows it. She’s getting dug out by this guy she’s cooking him dinner her friends have got to be laughing at you and you’re OK with that oh my God. come on take some kind a stand “No“


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## wxman3441

Tilted 1 said:


> Wxman, do not see this as another defeat in relationships you have had in your life, but rather see this as what you have learned from your relationships and know what is not going to be accepted by you. As most humans do we take the responsibility of others too far. But this is your chance to show yourself you are worth so much more. Do not for a second think this defines you because it doesn't. So don't let it.
> 
> We know it a bitter pill to swallow, but trying to get blood from a stone, will never happen. And chalk it up to love for yourself. And refuse to let others take advantage of you no longer. But surrond yourself with positive people with and who respect you and values. And they are not that hard to find because they show the real selves pretty quickly.





Robert22205 said:


> "I think she misses his “friendship” but she needs to understand that shouldn’t happen."
> Is it that she doesn't understand it shouldn't happen or is it that she can't go NC?
> 
> Her claim is it is not about him. She wants to spend time with her best friend but her best friend is not making the effort to see her outside of the home she is always at where Dave lives.
> 
> The above is a very deep and powerful emotional statement but has no true existence in reality without specifics.
> 
> For example, has she shared 'what' they talk about that's so special and unique (other than raising a kid)? Dave is not the only person in town with a teenage daughter.
> 
> I am not sure the details of their conversations. Of course she claims there was never an emotional affair.
> 
> Can you list 3 things she gets from Dave or talks about with Dave - that she can't with you ... (or someone else that is not a potential lover)?


I don't really know. I would say however that I would be shocked if she leaves me for Dave. If she does, she giving up owning a home (her credit won't allow her to get another home), she gives up support for her addicted family members (I have assisted in some capacity in the past) and destabilization for her daughter. 

Since our last fight, she seems to finally be willing to make changes, i.e. she is claiming to not go there anymore to quit drinking alcohol and now she is on a big health and diet kick. We will see what comes of that or if that actually sticks.


----------



## Prodigal

wxman3441 said:


> … I would be shocked if she leaves me for Dave. If she does, she giving up owning a home (her credit won't allow her to get another home), she gives up support for her addicted family members (I have assisted in some capacity in the past) and destabilization for her daughter.


So you serve a purpose. Doesn't sound as if you feel she is staying out of feelings of "love" for you. As long as you let her, she'll stay and use you. Sad, but true. Your life. Your choice.


----------



## Robert22205

That's new information coming from her. 

Did you threaten to dump her? What occurred or was said to trigger her saying she's going to quit alcohol etc. and make some sweeping change in her life style choices??

She claims (of course!) there was no emotional affair. However, as you posted earlier, she discouraged you from attending social events so she could interact with with Dave (without you present). That screams EA (and often more). Among other things, a primary ingredient of an EA involves secret communication and/or a secret relationship. 

Ask her point blank how her behavior squares with there being no emotional affair. 

Again: look at her behavior not her words. At best she's currently lying to herself as well as you.

In many cases, people subconsciously sabotage ourselves. For example, her forfeiting a home, family support, and a stable home life. Her intent probably is to fix herself and your relationship. Just a heads up that it requires that she be honest with herself as well as you. 

Did she read: "Not Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass???


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## phillybeffandswiss

wxman3441 said:


> I don't really know. I would say however that I would be shocked if she leaves me for Dave. If she does, she giving up owning a home (her credit won't allow her to get another home), she gives up support for her addicted family members (I have assisted in some capacity in the past) and destabilization for her daughter.
> 
> Since our last fight, she seems to finally be willing to make changes, i.e. she is claiming to not go there anymore to quit drinking alcohol and now she is on a big health and diet kick. We will see what comes of that or if that actually sticks.


Man.... You’ve got it bad. Look if you want to stay, you have to let all of this go. There are six and seven figure men and women, on this website, whose spouses or significant others cheated with the worst people you can imagine.

We have a thread where a woman left her man for a literal basement dweller who lived with his mother.

No, it isn’t rare, it is common it is called Affairing down.


----------



## Marc878

I’ll promise you the moon (fingers crossed behind back).

Bud, you should wake up to reality and stop being so naive.


----------



## wxman3441

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Man.... You’ve got it bad. Look if you want to stay, you have to let all of this go. There are six and seven figure men and women, on this website, whose spouses or significant others cheated with the worst people you can imagine.
> 
> We have a thread where a woman left her man for a literal basement dweller who lived with his mother.
> 
> No, it isn’t rare, it is common it is called Affairing down.


Im not ruling out an affair or one in the future, what I am saying is that she has a lot to lose and Dave would not give her half of what I am so that is why it would not make sense if she left me outright.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

wxman3441 said:


> Im not ruling out an affair or one in the future, what I am saying is that she has a lot to lose and Dave would not give her half of what I am so that is why it would not make sense if she left me outright.


I know exactly what you mean. You don’t understand what I mean. I am saying, what you have in assets does not matter at all affair or not.


----------



## BluesPower

wxman3441 said:


> Im not ruling out an affair or one in the future, what I am saying is that she has a lot to lose and Dave would not give her half of what I am so that is why it would not make sense if she left me outright.


She has nothing to lose. You will not come out of denial long enough to understand that she is and has been banging Dave for a long time. 

I hope one day, you wake up and think a little better of yourself. I hope that you understand that your wife is just a cheating POS. 

Otherwise, you will continue to wallow in what alternate reality you are wallowing in...


----------



## Affaircare

wxman3441 said:


> Im not ruling out an affair or one in the future, what I am saying is that she has a lot to lose and Dave would not give her half of what I am so that is why it would not make sense if she left me outright.


 @wxman3441, 

The VAST majority of people do not affair "wisely" and do not "affair up." There is this humorous concept that people leave Person 1 to be with Person 2 because Person 2 is better looking, smarter, richer, a better person, etc. NOPE! The vast majority of the time, people will be with Person 1 who is medium good looking, makes a good living and have bought a home, and has some issues but not a lot ... and they will destroy the family and lose all their assets to be with Person 2 who is significant older and overweight, has a minimum wage job and still lives in their parent's basement, who has a drinking or drug or gambling addiction, and has been a serial cheater several times! 

When someone is justifying adultery, they do not have the rational mind to do what is wise. They do not realistically look at what they stand to lose (because honestly, they don't care, and they think they get to keep it all anyway). So saying that you don't think she'll leave you for Dave "because she has a lot to lose" is just plain foolish. People do and have absolutely destroyed their family without ever realizing they are going to lose HALF OF EVERYTHING (including time with their own children) just because they are so caught up in the thrill of the affair that they don't stop to think...and if they do, they don't think clearly, logically, and responsibly! 

Want to know why someone leaves Person 1 to be with Person 2? Because Person 2--even if they are older and overweight, with no paycheck and no home, and an addiction--"makes them feel good." What they don't realize is that they feel good because Person 2 only works part time and THAT'S why they are always around to write love texts all day! Or they don't realize is that they feel good because Person 2 doesn't pay their bills and can use their little part time paycheck to buy them trinkets. Or they don't realize is that they feel good because Person 2 has an addiction or a mental health issue and THEY DON'T so they feel superior to Person 2. Or they don't realize is that they feel good because Person 2 also has the morals of an alley cat and doesn't judge them for committing adultery!


----------



## Robert22205

Everyone has a different threshold of tolerance and trust. It's your decision to dump her or wait and see if she self corrects - and I'll back your play either way. 

In the interim, please keep us up to date on her behavior. And I'll continue to offer insight into what you may be overlooking (or need to hear) and/or throw out suggestions. You know her better than us and you're probably aware of a lot of compensating details that are just too much to post.

I keep suggesting she read the book "Not Just Friends" because at a minimum she has no clue as to what are appropriate boundaries and/or behavior.

One benefit from reading the book is that she can't say she didn't realize her behavior was putting your relationship at risk (btw: not just with you but with any subsequent man). 

_*If it helps, consider writing her a letter (so she can read it over and over).*_

IMO you should inform her that: she needs to stop minimizing what she did with Dave; and stop pretending nothing happened (btw: I'm talking about 'trust' not sex). Her crush on Dave was not harmless and she can not fix what she refuses to recognize. 

For example, she discouraged you from attending social events so she could spend time with Dave (without you around). Therefore, her behavior with Dave created a huge amount of damage to your relationship by destroying your trust. 

Further, inform her that her behavior with Dave would have damaged any relationship (not just yours because of your Ex's infidelity).

And finally she needs to fully understand that her subsequent behavior/contact and words (the list is long...) not only continue to trigger your initial feeling of being betrayed by her with Dave - but it magnifies the overall damage. Not just for you (with your history) but for any guy. 

Frankly, IMO she has done nothing (accept play dumb and/or pretend it was out of her control or unplanned ... or saying she didn't intend to hurt your but just needed a night out) to restore trust. Instead she repeatedly creates a very self centered 'excuse' why she can't do what's needed to restore trust.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Everyone has a different threshold of tolerance and trust. It's your decision to dump her or wait and see if she self corrects - and I'll back your play either way.
> 
> I appreciate that. Honestly, I appreciate all of the comments on this thread, even the ones who pretty much say I am an idiot. Maybe it is what I need.
> 
> In the interim, please keep us up to date on her behavior. And I'll continue to offer insight into what you may be overlooking (or need to hear) and/or throw out suggestions. You know her better than us and you're probably aware of a lot of compensating details that are just too much to post.
> 
> There has been a significant change over the last week. She quit smoking and drinking and is working on her diet and hasn't been over Dave's house since. Its only been a week though.
> 
> I keep suggesting she read the book "Not Just Friends" because at a minimum she has no clue as to what are appropriate boundaries and/or behavior.
> 
> I'll keep an eye out for that book.
> 
> One benefit from reading the book is that she can't say she didn't realize her behavior was putting your relationship at risk (btw: not just with you but with any subsequent man).
> 
> _*If it helps, consider writing her a letter (so she can read it over and over).*_
> 
> IMO you should inform her that: she needs to stop minimizing what she did with Dave; and stop pretending nothing happened (btw: I'm talking about 'trust' not sex). Her crush on Dave was not harmless and she can not fix what she refuses to recognize.
> 
> Yes I agree, she has tried to minimize it in the past.
> 
> For example, she discouraged you from attending social events so she could spend time with Dave (without you around). Therefore, her behavior with Dave created a huge amount of damage to your relationship by destroying your trust.
> 
> Totally agree.
> 
> Further, inform her that her behavior with Dave would have damaged any relationship (not just yours because of your Ex's infidelity).
> 
> Also true.
> 
> And finally she needs to fully understand that her subsequent behavior/contact and words (the list is long...) not only continue to trigger your initial feeling of being betrayed by her with Dave - but it magnifies the overall damage. Not just for you (with your history) but for any guy.
> 
> I agree and need to make her aware.
> 
> Frankly, IMO she has done nothing (accept play dumb and/or pretend it was out of her control or unplanned ... or saying she didn't intend to hurt your but just needed a night out) to restore trust. Instead she repeatedly creates a very self centered 'excuse' why she can't do what's needed to restore trust.


Up until the past week, that has pretty much been the case. She stayed away from Dave for a couple months after I found out but she was acting very resentful.


----------



## Robert22205

How it going? 

I don't think you should postpone the book any longer. I forgot to mention that you can buy "Not Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass off of amazon (and there's usually a cheap used copy available).

While she's investing time in fixing her bad habits this book will encourage her.

I think that both you guys reading this book (and then discussing its application to your relationship) will change your lives. 
When you read the book make notes in the margin or underline the points that hit home for you.

It's very on target with your relationship. For example the first chapter's title (is something you've heard from her): "I'm telling you, we're just friends"


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> How it going?
> 
> I don't think you should postpone the book any longer. I forgot to mention that you can buy "Not Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass off of amazon (and there's usually a cheap used copy available).
> 
> While she's investing time in fixing her bad habits this book will encourage her.
> 
> I think that both you guys reading this book (and then discussing its application to your relationship) will change your lives.
> When you read the book make notes in the margin or underline the points that hit home for you.
> 
> It's very on target with your relationship. For example the first chapter's title (is something you've heard from her): "I'm telling you, we're just friends"


Well as I stated earlier, she has quit smoking and drinking (about 10 days in) so there hasn't been any wild nights out.

Now, she was at Dave's yesterday. Here is the reason: Dave's brother brought his gf (the best friend) a trappers tent for Christmas (google it). There was a photoshoot that took place yesterday for the company my partner works for so it took place in their backyard and a lot of people outside their friendship circle attended. Later in the evening, the best friend tried to lure my partner back there by inviting her over which she declined. I still fear the friend will cause problems in the future. 

I totally understand why some would think she has gotten physical with Dave in the past. However, I have gotten a hold of many things in the past (emails, text messages, phone records, etc.) and there is no evidence at all they were ever physical. Of course that does not excuse her allowing herself to have feelings and a crush for him. I guess once or if I find evidence that she was physical with him, that would for sure be the last straw for me.


----------



## Tilted 1

Your delusional, my man and no contact means no contact your pissing in the wind. And her not texting about her banging dave doesn't prove a thing. And her desire for him is evident, but you pushing the boundary line each time YOU justify her actions means you are a cuckold!!!! Welcome to your new life in which I feel for you, but is (over right now), it is because you choose this life.

I look forward to your next occurrence with her, because after two or three replys you come to a new rationalization and justification. 

Hang in the my man, we'll share your drama with you because this is type of person never changes because she has no reason to change.


----------



## Robert22205

I feel like I'm nagging so this is the last time I'll reference: "Not Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass:

1 - it should be required reading for 'all' couples,
2 - it will save you a lot of time justifying why you don’t feel safe with her behavior
3 - it will provide you both with specific terms to discuss boundaries

And finally, the last go round she resented YOU (and you eventually caved in) for putting Dave and his house off limits. 
After reading this book she should be motivated to identify and enforce boundaries voluntarily/on her own initiative - and stop resenting/blaming you.


----------



## Robert22205

Under the circumstances (her 'past' behavior with respect to with Dave) you should have the answers to (and she should have proactively volunteered this):

1 - Was Dave present at the photo shoot?
2 - Why was the photo shoot at Dave's house?
2 - Who made the decision to locate the photo shoot at Dave's house?
3 - Did they use an external professional photographer (with sophisticated equipment) or was this something a coworker shot with a cell phone? 
4 - How will the photographs be used (magazine, newspaper, web site)?
5 - During what hours was she at Dave's house?
6 - What was her role in the photo shoot?
7 - Were you able to over hear the conversation when the Bestie invited her back later that evening? I ask because it's important that your wife not blame you as the reason for not going back later that night. If she blamed you, then she's not making as much progress as you think. 
8 - Did she ask for your consent to her attending the photo shoot?


----------



## Robert22205

Frankly, she should not have attended the photo shoot. She could have called in sick. 

This entire mess is one she created and one she needs to fix without any effort, support or understanding from you. 

It’s not appropriate for her to expect you to suck up her continued and repeated contact with Dave. 

Why? Because every time she ‘cannot’ avoid seeing Dave she knows you trigger. Every time she ‘cannot’ avoid seeing Dave she knows she's giving you a **** sandwich for lunch. Every time she ‘cannot’ avoid seeing Dave she is giving you evidence of 'who' she is. 

Partners that have an affair with a coworker or someone they see at work typically have to change jobs as part of a plan to reconcile - (to break the emotional connection as well as for their partner to feel safe). That's one of the consequences for her inappropriate behavior.

You didn't ask her to change jobs to save your relationship - you just asked her to avoid all contact with Dave. 

Experience shows that every time she sees her 'crush' under any circumstance - her feelings are rekindled at least a little bit. This is human nature and she's no different. It's a mess she created. 

IMO she'd have to be 100% NC for at least 6 months to deny she has any attraction to him. Maybe longer since this was more than a crush (she pursued him by discouraging you from attending events so she could be alone with Dave). 

Once again: focus on her behavior not her words/promises.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Under the circumstances (her 'past' behavior with respect to with Dave) you should have the answers to (and she should have proactively volunteered this):
> 
> 1 - Was Dave present at the photo shoot? I do not know how long he was there but yes he was there in some capacity.
> 2 - Why was the photo shoot at Dave's house? My partner is indigenous and there was a trappers tent in the backyard. They are expensive and there are not many people or places that have them.
> 2 - Who made the decision to locate the photo shoot at Dave's house? Not sure
> 3 - Did they use an external professional photographer (with sophisticated equipment) or was this something a coworker shot with a cell phone? I think they have a photographer
> 4 - How will the photographs be used (magazine, newspaper, web site)? To promote a website
> 5 - During what hours was she at Dave's house? From roughly 9am to 5pm.
> 6 - What was her role in the photo shoot? She runs programs at the place she works. For her, she was working yesterday.
> 7 - Were you able to over hear the conversation when the Bestie invited her back later that evening? I ask because it's important that your wife not blame you as the reason for not going back later that night. If she blamed you, then she's not making as much progress as you think. No I didnt hear the convo, she just told her "nah im gonna relax and watch a movie."
> 8 - Did she ask for your consent to her attending the photo shoot?


 Not really, she just said I have this photo shoot at "(Best friend's) house". Sorry that I have to go there". - something along those lines.


----------



## Sparta

Wow what is it going take You know she has the hots for this guy and is f.ucking her. Oh my god by you not taking any action to protect yourself or to stick up for yourself hate to say you’re coming even more pathetic and that’s why she’s lost all respect toward you that’s why she keeps f***ing this guy. She know she can get away with it and that you’re not a man in her eyes, because no man would put up level of disrespect. Just knowing that she’s attracted to him alone is enough for me to end it but not you.? wow buddy. I don’t get it never understood men like this.


----------



## Robert22205

1 - why did it take all day to shoot a few pictures?
2 - is there anyone else that attended (outside the toxic friend circle) that could confirm that it took all day?

You need to make sure she understands that a 'fail' is a fail. Saying 'sorry' does not lesson the damage her behavior does to your trust (and your relationship). The spike goes into your heart whether it's intentional or not.

You need to make sure she understands that staying home at night for a few weeks does not in any way (any way) offset or heal the damage that each Dave contact has on your trust. And every contact with Dave (intentional or not) not only reduces trust but triggers you to the day you discovered her inappropriate behavior (was it 6 months ago?). 

The photo shoot just put your relationship back to D day. Now R starts all over again. (sucks for you)

IMO she should have been very very nervous and apologetic when informing you she was going to Dave's house. Her saying 'sorry' is not her showing a lot of empathy for you. 

"I have this photo shoot at "(Best friend's) house". Sorry that I have to go there". In view of all you discussed with her etc, she does not sound like she understands that her relationship is on thin ice. She takes it for granted that you'll be home when she returns. Clearly she thinks that staying home a few weeks has restored your trust just enough where she can withdraw a little. 

She behaves as if your trust in her is a bank account. She adds a little by staying home for a few weeks which then entitles her to withdraw (reduce) trust later.


----------



## jlg07

I hate to say this but if your wife REALLY cared and was REALLY remorseful, she would 100% cut off ANY/ALL chances to be around that guy. She has not, she continues to see him. You KNOW that she was attracted to him. Why do you continue to let the camel into the tent? There are NO repercussions on her. She didn't even THINK to discuss the photo shoot with you. She just stated, I have to go. BS. IF she valued your marriage or respected you, she would have either turned down the job or made sure that he was NOT there and YOU were.


----------



## Robert22205

When she says she's going to her Best Friend's or boyfriend's house, you should immediately correct her and say: Dave's house.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> 1 - why did it take all day to shoot a few pictures? Not sure if there were other activities going on that day or not.
> 2 - is there anyone else that attended (outside the toxic friend circle) that could confirm that it took all day? Yea I think there were several others there.
> 
> You need to make sure she understands that a 'fail' is a fail. Saying 'sorry' does not lesson the damage her behavior does to your trust (and your relationship). The spike goes into your heart whether it's intentional or not.
> 
> You need to make sure she understands that staying home at night for a few weeks does not in any way (any way) offset or heal the damage that each Dave contact has on your trust. And every contact with Dave (intentional or not) not only reduces trust but triggers you to the day you discovered her inappropriate behavior (was it 6 months ago?).
> 
> The photo shoot just put your relationship back to D day. Now R starts all over again. (sucks for you)
> 
> IMO she should have been very very nervous and apologetic when informing you she was going to Dave's house. Her saying 'sorry' is not her showing a lot of empathy for you.
> 
> "I have this photo shoot at "(Best friend's) house". Sorry that I have to go there". In view of all you discussed with her etc, she does not sound like she understands that her relationship is on thin ice. She takes it for granted that you'll be home when she returns. Clearly she thinks that staying home a few weeks has restored your trust just enough where she can withdraw a little.
> 
> She behaves as if your trust in her is a bank account. She adds a little by staying home for a few weeks which then entitles her to withdraw (reduce) trust later.


Yea you may have a point there. She seems committed to not going back there again but I wonder how long until she misses her friend again.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

wxman3441 said:


> Yea you may have a point there. She seems committed to not going back there again but I wonder how long until she misses her friend again.


 Is her friend chained to the floor or something? There's a million places you can meet someone, your place being one of them. That's a weak excuse to go see Dave.


----------



## wxman3441

Yea her friend has made little effort to come to her. I wouldn’t put it past her to sabotage the relationship.


----------



## Robert22205

I understand you’re in observation mode giving her yet another opportunity to go NC with Dave. 

I recall you discovered (about 6 months ago) that she had romantic feelings toward Dave; and she was actively discouraging you from attending activities in order to pursue him without you being present. 

Although we’re all human and have fantasies & crushes, she crossed a line by attempting to act on it. 

Further, she crossed another line by spending the night at his house (along with her friends who you said can’t be trusted to report her infidelity). Plus there was a follow up text afterward from the Bestie recommending that she not tell you what happened that night? 

Did you ever find out what your wife did that night that she is ashamed to admit to?


----------



## Robert22205

She mistakenly thinks that if she limits contact with Dave to circumstances beyond her control or other ‘good’ reason that (even though you won’t like it) - you will eventually forget her betrayal and trust will automatically be restored. 

Among other things, I suggest you repeat over and over (and over) to your common law wife: every contact (intentional or not) with Dave triggers two consequences for your relationship:

-	Triggers the full original pain of her decision to betray you 

-	Trust is reset to zero

Therefore, (in your mind) she hasn’t been working on fixing the relationship for 6 months – it’ s only been a matter of days. More importantly, at some point you will have to break up in order to protect yourself from this abuse.

Either she protects you by going NC with Dave; or you will have to protect yourself by breaking up with her.


----------



## Robert22205

I suggest you to consider a strategy (similar to a cockblock) with the Bestie. 

Be civil but decisive and show zero tolerance for the Bestie’s behavior. 

Nothing intimidates like publicly, calmly exposing and questioning the Bestie’s behavior which (she already knows) directly sabotages her best friend’s happiness. At best the Bestie’s behavior is selfish - at worst she’s jealous and hoping to destroy your relationship. 

Plan out what you want to say ahead of time. Be patient and pick the right time and place (the more witnesses to the Bestie’s exposure the stronger the impact). The more uncomfortable or embarrassed everyone is - the better. 

Do not warn your wife. Why? Because you don’t ever need her permission to protect yourself or your family. This is one more consequence of your wife’s behavior and subsequent inability to correct it.

Confronting her face to face is you moving toward and facing a problem head on (vs waiting passively). It’s a ballsy take charge action that puts you in control and commands respect. 

I suggest a two-step attack on the POS built around these basic points: 

1 – Why do you regularly insist that my wife come over to Dave’s house or attend social events including Dave? I ask because that kind of behavior is not consistent with the role of my wife’s best friend. 

Why? Because a Bestie would place my wife’s & daughter’s happiness first and would not encourage my wife to contaminate our relationship further with Dave.

2 – You know that every contact my wife has with Dave pushes us further apart. Why are you doing this? Are you jealous?

Finally, don’t hang around for her answer. Her words don’t matter since you judge people/her on behavior.


----------



## Gmason

May i ask a question. I'm new here. Why are some people's answers so rough ? Some people take a while after exposing their situation here to make a decision. It's kind of disheartening to read some responses here. It makes some people crying from even asking. Don't you think talking about it here is like therapy?
Just asking so please don't bash me. This is my point of view


----------



## Marc878

The truth is kinda harsh. Many come here hoping it’ll all go away. Or rugsweep and end up getting it again. Repeats happen all the time.

Many come back later and state that they wished they had listened or taken action early on.

There is no magic or easy way to deal with these issues.

Most giving opinions have been through this and know the pitfalls. Hence, they don’t sugar coat it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Gmason said:


> May i ask a question. I'm new here. Why are some people's answers so rough ? Some people take a while after exposing their situation here to make a decision. It's kind of disheartening to read some responses here. It makes some people crying from even asking. Don't you think talking about it here is like therapy?
> Just asking so please don't bash me. This is my point of view


Personally, I don’t like being strung along. Tell me the truth immediately and let me deal with the shock. 
Hand holding and gentle prodding rarely works and helps people bury their heads IMO.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> I understand you’re in observation mode giving her yet another opportunity to go NC with Dave.
> 
> I recall you discovered (about 6 months ago) that she had romantic feelings toward Dave; and she was actively discouraging you from attending activities in order to pursue him without you being present.
> 
> Although we’re all human and have fantasies & crushes, she crossed a line by attempting to act on it.
> 
> Further, she crossed another line by spending the night at his house (along with her friends who you said can’t be trusted to report her infidelity). Plus there was a follow up text afterward from the Bestie recommending that she not tell you what happened that night? Actually I dont recall ever reading a text about this.
> 
> Did you ever find out what your wife did that night that she is ashamed to admit to?


 She claims nothing happened, they stayed up late until 6am then she crashed on the couch.


----------



## Robert22205

You're right ...it wasn't the Bestie that raised the issue of a coverup - it was you after reading her texts. After the all nighter at Dave's house, your girlfriend texted that she was going to avoid you for a few days until she left town on business (and the Bestie said: smart). That text exchange got you wondering if something happened. 

Wasn't there another text exchange where she got jealous when Dave hit on her girlfriend - and the girlfriend apologized for it (i.e., as if the girlfriend recognized that Dave and your GF were an item).


----------



## jane jasmine

very interesting reading through all these


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> You're right ...it wasn't the Bestie that raised the issue of a coverup - it was you after reading her texts. After the all nighter at Dave's house, your girlfriend texted that she was going to avoid you for a few days until she left town on business (and the Bestie said: smart). That text exchange got you wondering if something happened. Actually it wasn't the bestie she was talking to but another friend but yea that text got me thinking.
> 
> Wasn't there another text exchange where she got jealous when Dave hit on her girlfriend - and the girlfriend apologized for it (i.e., as if the girlfriend recognized that Dave and your GF were an item).


 Yes that was early on in their "affair"


----------



## wxman3441

This is a text exchange she had with Dave last weekend:

Dave (2:18am) Are you guys up to anything? Everyone is skinned out. Looking to head out but every one is a *****.

My partner (7:13am the following morning): No! I have to work this weekend. Plus I quit smoking and I am not drinking while I try to quit. All in all .... think I'm a ***** too hahahaha

This was the day (Jan 11) where the photoshoot took place at his house later in the day.


----------



## wxman3441

jane jasmine said:


> very interesting reading through all these


Crazy stuff, eh?


----------



## Robert22205

Does you wife give you access to her phone?

Why is he reaching out to your common law wife? Are they drinking 'buddies' again??

So much for Dave staying in another room (or keeping his distance from her) a while back out of respect for your relationship. I guess your wife isn't the only one that believes that 'in time' you'll get over it (i.e., that it's your personal problem).

This text exchange seems harmless except it's with Dave. 
After what you caught her doing last summer, she should have dumped Dave like a hot potato. 

Except for a few weeks when you were angry, she never really went NC. Unfortunately, since she's been maintaining contact (and cooking for him), there's no reason to assume her feelings for him have decreased. IMO her text sends Dave this message: I'm available to you Dave but I have to work this weekend (and I'm also trying to quit smoking) - but all that's temporary so maybe I'm available next weekend. 

1 - When Dave asks if 'you guys' are up to anything is he including your wife & you - or your wife & her Bestie? 

I ask because isn't Dave aware by now that you don't want to socialize with him??
Did someone tell Dave that you and him are friends again???

IMO she encourages future contact from Dave which suggests she either still has feelings for him - or she gets a rush making you jealous.


----------



## syhoybenden

wxman3441, the only one who thinks Dave is out of the picture is you.

She certainly doesn't.


----------



## manwithnoname

OP, consider this:

If she was supported by and lived with Dave (with evil bestie out of the picture), do you think she would look for reasons to come and spend time with you?

Come on dude. You're keeping yourself in limbo waiting for incriminating evidence through texts. They see enough of each other to get their "I love you" out, that's why you will never find anything on her phone. 

And she either discourages your presence, or you decide to not go when they hang out. 

You seriously don't believe her when she says nothing happened, do you?


----------



## wxman3441

I get that you think something physical happened between them. The reason I am unsure is because I found text from them back in October shortly after I found out she had a crush on him. 

She told him they can’t talk anymore because I found out that she had feelings for him. He responded by saying something along the lines, “oh wow I had no idea.” I’m guessing if they slept together the exchange would have been different.


----------



## syhoybenden

Oh for crying out loud.


----------



## manwithnoname

wxman3441 said:


> I get that you think something physical happened between them. The reason I am unsure is because I found text from them back in October shortly after I found out she had a crush on him.
> 
> She told him they can’t talk anymore because I found out that she had feelings for him. He responded by saying something along the lines, “oh wow I had no idea.” I’m guessing if they slept together the exchange would have been different.


He had no idea about what?

They can't talk anymore but she can visit him and effectively go on dates with him when the four of them do things you're not invited to. 

You've absorbed the countless 2x4's you've received. You are resistant to seeing the obvious. I'm wondering if you find it exciting, wondering if she is or isn't, not wanting to find out the truth because you won't leave her and that would make you a ****.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

wxman3441 said:


> I get that you think something physical happened between them. The reason I am unsure is because I found text from them back in October shortly after I found out she had a crush on him.
> 
> She told him they can’t talk anymore because I found out that she had feelings for him. He responded by saying something along the lines, “oh wow I had no idea.” I’m guessing if they slept together the exchange would have been different.


Gotcha you are that guy. It is now just a crush. So, as it continues they were just really good friends. Then it will be she doesn’t actually see him, they just bumped into each other at places. 

Then it was all the BFFs fault they got married and you secretly funded their wedding.

If she tells him you know, of course he is going to control what he says in a text.


Funny, I would have lost my mind with that text. It tells me whatever they were doing, he knew it was wrong. When I was just a friend, in another state and dude told her no more guy friends I didn’t say “Oh wow, I didn’t know.”

I said “we’ve been friends for years, but do what you have to do.”


----------



## Robert22205

All my previous observations regarding her behavior with Dave (and her attitude towards you) and my advice is the same regardless of whether they had sex. 

I offer no advice on how to fix your relationship. I only offer advice on how to get yourself out of feeling unsafe in the relationship. 

When you catch your partner in an EA or PA, in the short run, the strategy with the highest probability of removing you from the abuse is pretty much the same whether you ultimately R or D (or break up). For example:

1 - zero tolerance for the behavior (she needs to believe that it stops immediately or you break up)
2 - NC (it's not negotiable ...and you know why)
3 - you demand total transparency, including accountability for her time
4 - insist that she works on making herself safe (e.g., by reading 'that' book ....); she acknowledges her behavior was inappropriate; and she apologizes (a lot!) for hurting you. 

IMO she's made a half ass effort because it's her nature ... but also because she's learned she can get away with it. She has a history of pushing you to the limit and when you blow up - she temporarily offers to do whatever it takes for another chance.


----------



## spoondriver

I'm going through something similar and also got a rocket from the community for being lax and not standing up to this kind of nonsense.

I went through my wife's photos out of pure suspicion and found some stuff that hasn't been properly explained. I also felt bad for going behind her back and digging but in doing so have I found a bigger problem...?

Probably...


----------



## 3Xnocharm

spoondriver said:


> I'm going through something similar and also got a rocket from the community for being lax and not standing up to this kind of nonsense.
> 
> I went through my wife's photos out of pure suspicion and found some stuff that hasn't been properly explained. I also felt bad for going behind her back and digging but in doing so have I found a bigger problem...?
> 
> Probably...


This is one of the unhealthiest threads you could be on, in your situation.


----------



## BluesPower

3Xnocharm said:


> This is one of the unhealthiest threads you could be on, in your situation.


No kidding... the OP on this thread would not believe that his wife was cheating if he came home to them buck naked banging on the couch. 

She would say it was an accident, he slipped, his clothes accidently came off and his penis accidently went into my vagina.

OP would say OK, don't let it happen again...


----------



## wxman3441

3Xnocharm said:


> This is one of the unhealthiest threads you could be on, in your situation.


Most likely. I guess I found it surprising that so many were telling me to run for the hills. I also posted this on the infidelity forum where there were more comments suggesting I try and get more details. I wonder if many on this forum have been burned themselves by infidelity or they are very educated in this area and I am not.


----------



## attheend02

wxman3441 said:


> . I wonder if many on this forum have been burned themselves by infidelity or they are very educated in this area and I am not.


Yes to both. You really need to decide if you like being disrespected by your wife.. I think you may actually enjoy it.


Just take some time to pick out random archive threads for the past 10 years. You will not see many stories where it turns out it was all a mistake.


----------



## BluesPower

wxman3441 said:


> Most likely. I guess I found it surprising that so many were telling me to run for the hills. I also posted this on the infidelity forum where there were more comments suggesting I try and get more details. I wonder if many on this forum have been burned themselves by infidelity or they are very educated in this area and I am not.


She was saying that to another OP who is almost as clueless as you. 

And yes most here are both betrayed and very knowledgeable about infidelity and all the things that go with it. 

Like most of use would never, ever, ever, allow our wives to hang out with her affair partner and bury our heads in the sand about it. 

I just hope you get the courage to find out what is going on for yourself, we all know, but you seem to be in some type of alternative universe...


----------



## wxman3441

BluesPower said:


> She was saying that to another OP who is almost as clueless as you.
> 
> And yes most here are both betrayed and very knowledgeable about infidelity and all the things that go with it.
> 
> Like most of use would never, ever, ever, allow our wives to hang out with her affair partner and bury our heads in the sand about it.
> 
> I just hope you get the courage to find out what is going on for yourself, we all know, but you seem to be in some type of alternative universe...


Well out of the goodness of my heart I said the two of them can talk as parents because her daughter and his daughter and close friends. Then I was too nice and said that she can go over to that house since her best friend practically lives there and that kinda blew up. The best friend is in Florida now and there is no indication she is seeing him behind my back.


----------



## manwithnoname

wxman3441 said:


> Well out of the goodness of my heart I said the two of them can talk as parents because her daughter and his daughter and close friends. Then I was too nice and said that she can go over to that house since her best friend practically lives there and that kinda blew up. The best friend is in Florida now and there is no indication she is seeing him behind my back.


What you're saying is that you are ok with her seeing him, I guess our work is done here.


----------



## Robert22205

Is this a permanent move for the Bestie or is she traveling with the OM's brother?

Does Dave (the OM) have a girlfriend (or is he celibate). 

Do you have a way to monitor her contact/conversations with Dave? 
Did she agree to inform you of/summarize each contact with him?

How often does she contact Dave regarding the daughters? Daily, weekly, monthly?

Is she still going out at night socializing without you?


----------



## Amplifi

Projection. One of the biggest giveaways.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Is this a permanent move for the Bestie or is she traveling with the OM's brother? It is just a vacation for a week.
> 
> Does Dave (the OM) have a girlfriend (or is he celibate). As far as I know he is not dating anyone.
> 
> Do you have a way to monitor her contact/conversations with Dave? I suppose I could go through her phone. In the past there were not many text exchanges between them and there was never anything explicit said.
> Did she agree to inform you of/summarize each contact with him? No but I am usually aware when she is going to that house. Since that photoshoot she has not been there to my knowledge.
> 
> How often does she contact Dave regarding the daughters? Daily, weekly, monthly? Her daughter hangs out with Dave's daughter at least once a week. Dave daughter is often in the care of Dave's ex so I guess they have to chat about the kids whereabouts every few weeks.
> 
> Is she still going out at night socializing without you?


 Not lately.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Just checking, I see nothing has changed except, the move to I’m good with it for the daughters.


----------



## Amplifi

BluesPower said:


> No kidding... the OP on this thread would not believe that his wife was cheating if he came home to them buck naked banging on the couch.
> 
> She would say it was an accident, he slipped, his clothes accidently came off and his penis accidently went into my vagina.
> 
> OP would say OK, don't let it happen again...


It could happen. Right?


----------



## oldtruck

Robert22205 said:


> Is this a permanent move for the Bestie or is she traveling with the OM's brother?
> 
> Does Dave (the OM) have a girlfriend (or is he celibate).
> 
> Do you have a way to monitor her contact/conversations with Dave?
> Did she agree to inform you of/summarize each contact with him?
> 
> How often does she contact Dave regarding the daughters? Daily, weekly, monthly?
> 
> Is she still going out at night socializing without you?


my parents had very little to no contact with my friends parents.
there is no need the for the WW and the OM to break NC because
their kids are friends.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

> Does Dave (the OM) have a girlfriend (or is he celibate).
> As far as I know he is not dating anyone.


Except for your wife.


----------



## wxman3441

Rubix Cubed said:


> Except for your wife.


I understand your response but can an affair really happen is there are huge gaps in the time they spend together?


----------



## manwithnoname

wxman3441 said:


> I understand your response but can an affair really happen is there are huge gaps in the time they spend together?




It's an affair.....they get together whenever they get the opportunity. Frequency is not the determining factor.


----------



## Prodigal

wxman3441 said:


> ... but can an affair really happen is there are huge gaps in the time they spend together?


*YES.*


----------



## Rubix Cubed

wxman3441 said:


> I understand your response but can an affair really happen is there are huge gaps in the time they spend together?


Absolutely!!!


----------



## BluesPower

wxman3441 said:


> I understand your response but can an affair really happen is there are huge gaps in the time they spend together?


You are joking, right? 

This is not a real answer, your cat typed that...


----------



## Robert22205

1 - What's your opinion as to what direction things are going? Do you trust your wife more or less than before last summer? 

2 - If she had no need for your money and could afford the house, do you think she'd consider replacing you with Dave? 
If you had to go out of town on business for 3 months, would you trust her to stay away from Dave? 

3 - What did your attorney advise you concerning 'divorcing' a common law wife?

4 - How often does Dave's 13yo daughter stay with him overnight? IMO, unless the girl lives with Dave full time, the X wife should be your wife's primary contact. Even then...timing of pickup and drop off is usually communicated through the teens. There's just not a lot of reasons for the parents to chat (unless they want to).

5 - "... can an affair really happen if there are huge gaps in the time they spend together?"

IMO, this comment (the gaps) does not apply to your situation. 
Why? because she already bonded with the OM.

Your wife was crushing hard (at the very least) on the OM to the point of excluding you from social activities and to the point where her girlfriend recognized that the OM was your wife's .... (fill in the blank).

You can't assume her feelings for the OM stopped just because you caught her. And gaps of a few weeks or less are nothing...especially since she's constantly reminded of him. 

Her feelings for him are reset every time she sees him driving down the street....or talks to him for any reason. IMO her feelings may also be triggered when she's around the OM's brother and/or every time her Bestie mentions Dave. 

Finally, IMO the only thing that's changed since you caught her - is that you are now standing guard and made it more difficult for her to act out on her crush.


----------



## Prodigal

What I honestly find hilarious about this thread is its title. Like I've said previously, unless OP actually walks in on his partner and Dave in flagrante delicto, he'll just stay with her and remain in laa-laa land. Sad, but true.


----------



## manwithnoname

Prodigal said:


> What I honestly find hilarious about this thread is its title. Like I've said previously, *unless* OP actually walks in on his partner and Dave in flagrante delicto, he'll just stay with her and remain in laa-laa land. Sad, but true.


Substitute "even if" for the bold and it could possibly still be true, and even more sad.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> 1 - What's your opinion as to what direction things are going? Do you trust your wife more or less than before last summer? Trust her more because there is no clear evidence that anything is still going on with Dave and she knows she has a lot of lose if she screws up again. I can't say I trust her fully yet. Her bestie is back from vacation so we will see what happens now with them hanging out together.
> 
> 2 - If she had no need for your money and could afford the house, do you think she'd consider replacing you with Dave? Possibly, its hard to say.
> 
> If you had to go out of town on business for 3 months, would you trust her to stay away from Dave? No, at this point, I'd think she would go over to that house a few times to see her friend.
> 
> 3 - What did your attorney advise you concerning 'divorcing' a common law wife? She advised to sell the house even though its in my name since she contributed to the down payment.
> 
> 4 - How often does Dave's 13yo daughter stay with him overnight? IMO, unless the girl lives with Dave full time, the X wife should be your wife's primary contact. Even then...timing of pickup and drop off is usually communicated through the teens. There's just not a lot of reasons for the parents to chat (unless they want to). Id say 3 or 4 nights. I think he and his ex split time with the daughter. Dave's daughter stays with us on occasional nights.
> 
> 5 - "... can an affair really happen if there are huge gaps in the time they spend together?"
> 
> IMO, this comment (the gaps) does not apply to your situation.
> Why? because she already bonded with the OM.
> 
> Your wife was crushing hard (at the very least) on the OM to the point of excluding you from social activities and to the point where her girlfriend recognized that the OM was your wife's .... (fill in the blank).
> 
> You can't assume her feelings for the OM stopped just because you caught her. And gaps of a few weeks or less are nothing...especially since she's constantly reminded of him.
> 
> Her feelings for him are reset every time she sees him driving down the street....or talks to him for any reason. IMO her feelings may also be triggered when she's around the OM's brother and/or every time her Bestie mentions Dave. Yea, its not like their friendship will end anytime soon so Dave or his brother will come up in conversation here and there.
> 
> Finally, IMO the only thing that's changed since you caught her - is that you are now standing guard and made it more difficult for her to act out on her crush.


 This is true. I'm keeping really close tabs on her.


----------



## Robert22205

wxman3441 .... when dealing with uncertainty it helps to have a plan (it gives you a sense of control and peace).

Have you thought about a mental list of (say 3) things (other than first hand proof of sex) which if one or more occurs in the next 30 days is a deal breaker? 

The list doesn't have to be set in concrete/firm .... just a rough guide for you to look for going forward.


----------



## Alicat67

Why don’t you tell her that her texts to someone else haven’t gone too well with you! She’s clearly up to no good, don’t pander to her, she’s totally disrespecting you. There’s no way around it, she’s a cheat, end it, they never change.......ever!


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

wxman3441 said:


> This is true. I'm keeping really close tabs on her.


Why anyone would CHOOSE to engage in this kind of **** show - having to police a lying cheater because they can't be trusted - day in and day out is just beyond me. There isn't a human being on this earth worth that price tag.

Where is your *self respect*???


----------



## wxman3441

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Why anyone would CHOOSE to engage in this kind of **** show - having to police a lying cheater because they can't be trusted - day in and day out is just beyond me. There isn't a human being on this earth worth that price tag.
> 
> Where is your *self respect*???


Her bestie tried to lure her over there yesterday for dinner but she declined so there is that. She then proceeded to tell me how sad the bestie is because she wasn't going over there. Bestie may be more of an issue than my partner at this point.


----------



## Tilted 1

But what, why do you think this?


----------



## wxman3441

Tilted 1 said:


> But what, why do you think this?


Why do I think the bestie is an issue? She dates the OM's brother. She has a questionable past and I think part of her would want my partner to shack up with the OM so they can be dating brothers together. I may be wrong but just a thought.


----------



## dubsey

It's more than just a thought, and you know it. You're right to be concerned.


----------



## Robert22205

Your common law wife isn't the first person to be negatively influenced by family and/or friends. 

Thanks for checking in.

1- To what extent, does your wife realize that the Bestie is a bad influence on her?

2 -In your opinion, what do you think your common law wife gets out of her relationship with the Bestie?

Regardless of how long they've known each other - your wife maintains the daily relationship because she gets something out of it that she can't get from you or another woman.

For example, does the Bestie validate her (if so, how)?


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Your common law wife isn't the first person to be negatively influenced by family and/or friends.
> 
> Thanks for checking in.
> 
> 1- To what extent, does your wife realize that the Bestie is a bad influence on her? I am not sure she does realize it. Bestie has a troubled past, grew up in various foster homes, victim of abuse and trauma, etc and has a wild sexual history with many partners. My partner once told me her bestie took on 4 men at once. So maybe she has some sympathy for her.
> 
> 2 -In your opinion, what do you think your common law wife gets out of her relationship with the Bestie? They are both indigenous and share many cultural beliefs and generally get along really well.
> 
> Regardless of how long they've known each other - your wife maintains the daily relationship because she gets something out of it that she can't get from you or another woman. You are likely right?
> 
> For example, does the Bestie validate her (if so, how)? Well like most friends, she is always in her corner when she has problems.


----------



## wxman3441

Just a quick update: Dave is out of town so there was a gathering at that house the other night. I was there along with a bunch of other people but being there still made me uncomfortable.

Fortunately, the partner has not had contact with Dave or been at that house without me since my last posts, a few months now.


----------



## Pablosam

First Time commenting on your thread. Why were you uncomfortable ?


----------



## wxman3441

Pablosam said:


> First Time commenting on your thread. Why were you uncomfortable ?


Becuase my partner's former crush lives in the house we were hanging out in.


----------



## Pablosam

Well you were there with your partner and Dave wasn't there. What was going to happen ?


----------



## Nucking Futs

wxman3441 said:


> Becuase my partner's crush lives in the house we were hanging out in.


Fify.


----------



## wxman3441

Pablosam said:


> Well you were there with your partner and Dave wasn't there. What was going to happen ?


Nothing but just being there was awkward.


----------



## wxman3441

She feels the need to tell me that her friends over there say how much they miss her and that they blame me for it.


----------



## jlg07

And tell her, that's ok -- they can blame me, but they REALLY should be blaming YOU. If you hadn't let the affair develop, you wouldn't have had to avoid them.


----------



## Tobyboy

wxman3441 said:


> She feels the need to tell me that her friends over there say how much they miss her and that they blame me for it.


Dave must be back in town. Right?


----------



## wxman3441

Tobyboy said:


> Dave must be back in town. Right?


I think so. I track her phone and she was there for a bit again today. When I asked that she was doing, she didnt reply until she was at another location.


----------



## jlg07

@wxman3441 -- you need to work on your co-dependency here. WHY are you letting your wife do this to you? She has already said how hot she finds this guy and is finding ways to hang out with him -- you should NOT allow this in your marriage.
Tell her that she can hang with whoever she wants, and she can do it as your ex wife. I see NO respect from her towards you OR your marriage.

She is facing NO consequences to cheating on you (and YES she is cheating -- even if it's only an EA -- and it's probably more).
Please stand up for yourself.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

wxman3441 said:


> She feels the need to tell me that her friends over there say how much they miss her and that they blame me for it.


So??? her friends are more important than you.You know that's not the truth anyway. she's going over to see dave.



wxman3441 said:


> I think so. I track her phone and she was there for a bit again today. When I asked that she was doing, she didnt reply until she was at another location.


 And lying about it. But if your good with that more power to ya. I couldn't be.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

stutter post


----------



## manwithnoname

wxman3441 said:


> I think so. I track her phone and she was there for a bit again today. When I asked that she was doing, she didnt reply until she was at another location.


Of course, this way she's truthful.

Time to put your foot down. 

And by this I mean plant your foot on the ground firmly so you can kick her to the curb with the other foot.


----------



## Robert22205

I'm sorry you are still suffering with a partner that does not make you feel safe from infidelity. 

IMO, what your GF's friends say is irrelevant. Why? because the only thing that matters (in the context of is your GF a safe partner) is your GF's response.

1 - What was her response?

A safe partner would take responsibility for her decision to flirt (including, excluding you from social activities so they could flirt) as well as letting her 'friend' know that the OM belongs to her. A safe partner would respond that the consequences from her inappropriate behavior are 100% on her and those consequences include NC with the OM (not even seeing him walk down the street or share the same room with him). 

2 - Does she know you track her on GPS? With respect to her covering up her recent visit to the house where the OM lives, MAKE NO MISTAKE that this is dishonest. It's called lying by exception.

3 - What do you get out of this? IMO, you seem to enjoy feeling/acting as her 'white knight' and saving her - and perhaps making her a better person. She grew up and still lives surrounded by 'friends' and family with lots of self destructive behavior (including drinking, drugs, woman beaters (her bestie's boyfriend), and tolerating lying & infidelity). 

IMO, among other things, a cheater is able to cheat because they allow the following characteristics to control their decisions/behavior: selfish, entitled, deceitful and lacking in empathy for their partner. 

Is she selfish, entitled, deceitful, and lacking empathy all the time? No (or you would have dumped her by now). However, after all the pain she caused you and her promises to maintain certain boundaries, she still allows those characteristics to surface from time to time (to your detriment).

Unfortunately, she's learned (from YOU) how far she can push you (before you dump her) and then pulls back citing some lame excuse. You initially draw a clear bright line with respect to NC - but then allow her to kick a little dirt on it until it doesn't exist anymore. 

4 - Where were you when she was at the OM's house? The next time you need to drop whatever you're doing and drive over - and confront her.


----------



## Sparta

OK the OP not going do anything about his girlfriend or wife. Whatever she appears to be to you.? Anything That does not contain ex in front of it like ex-girlfriend or ex-wife by now after what He just posted about catching her at her APs house once again. Also her not responding to his texts until she was at a new location. that’s all he says. He could elaborating on what discussed between them after she decided to answer his text but yet he says nothing unbelievable. I got to ask why do you bother posting or try to get help. you do nothing, nor do I think you’ll ever do anything. So I’ve got to as again. He must have a cuckhold fantasy or something resembling that lifestyle. I understand you’re not going do anything about your WW or WG.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> I'm sorry you are still suffering with a partner that does not make you feel safe from infidelity.
> 
> IMO, what your GF's friends say is irrelevant. Why? because the only thing that matters (in the context of is your GF a safe partner) is your GF's response.
> 
> 1 - What was her response? Her response to why she was there? She had her child dropped off to spend time with Dave's daughter.
> 
> A safe partner would take responsibility for her decision to flirt (including, excluding you from social activities so they could flirt) as well as letting her 'friend' know that the OM belongs to her. A safe partner would respond that the consequences from her inappropriate behavior are 100% on her and those consequences include NC with the OM (not even seeing him walk down the street or share the same room with him).
> 
> 2 - Does she know you track her on GPS? With respect to her covering up her recent visit to the house where the OM lives, MAKE NO MISTAKE that this is dishonest. It's called lying by exception. No she doesn't know I track her. When I texted her what she was doing, I knew she was at Dave's. She didn't response until she was at another location. She later revealed she did go there (to drop her child off).
> 
> 3 - What do you get out of this? IMO, you seem to enjoy feeling/acting as her 'white knight' and saving her - and perhaps making her a better person. She grew up and still lives surrounded by 'friends' and family with lots of self destructive behavior (including drinking, drugs, woman beaters (her bestie's boyfriend), and tolerating lying & infidelity). To be honest, after the photoshoot (in early January) I don't think she had any contact with Dave and did seem to be making an effort to work on the relationship. I wonder if things will start to change again.
> 
> IMO, among other things, a cheater is able to cheat because they allow the following characteristics to control their decisions/behavior: selfish, entitled, deceitful and lacking in empathy for their partner.
> 
> Is she selfish, entitled, deceitful, and lacking empathy all the time? No (or you would have dumped her by now). However, after all the pain she caused you and her promises to maintain certain boundaries, she still allows those characteristics to surface from time to time (to your detriment). I wouldn't say she lacks that all time. Actually she is quite the opposite, but to other people. We have had arguments before in the past about where I stand on the priority list. Understandably her daughter comes first. But I have felt in the past that her family, friends and career come before me as well. She of course would deny this.
> 
> Unfortunately, she's learned (from YOU) how far she can push you (before you dump her) and then pulls back citing some lame excuse. You initially draw a clear bright line with respect to NC - but then allow her to kick a little dirt on it until it doesn't exist anymore. You may be right. We were that close to breaking up over this in the past. She knows I will walk if it becomes clear she has emotional involvement with him (or anyone else) again so I don't see why she should would risk that since I found out before.
> 
> 
> 4 - Where were you when she was at the OM's house? The next time you need to drop whatever you're doing and drive over - and confront her. I was at work.


----------



## syhoybenden

wxman3441 said:


> I was at work.


Family emergency.


----------



## Robert22205

I'm sorry you still feel unsafe with your partner. Feeling unsafe can be as destructive to a relationship as adultery. 

NC is usually a non negotiable requirement for rebuilding trust. You were more than generous to allow exceptions to NC with the OM with respect to 'play dates' for the teenage girls. Unfortunately, she does not seem grateful for your gift. 

1 - was this the first time since January that the teenage girls got together? If so, their relationship does not seem that tight or necessary. Maybe you should rethink this 'exception' to NC.

Visiting the OM's house without telling you in advance is not consistent with someone that is afraid that you'll leave her; NOR is her behavior consistent with someone that acknowledges that their behavior/lack of boundaries with the OM is/was inappropriate. 

Instead, her behavior is consistent with someone that goes along with you just enough (by doing the minimum) to keep a comfortable home for her and her teenage daughter. 

Since (in your mind) this is an ongoing 'test' and you don't want to spend the rest of your life spying on her, perhaps you should step back and let her sink or swim. 

Instead, for the next 3 months or whatever you can tolerate, step back and observe how long and how often there's any contact with the OM (or other behavior with her friends that you don't want to live with). Keep a journal, including what level of detail (if any) she volunteers before and after. Does she lie by minimizing or non disclosure of details? Let her party all night again at his house (if that's what she wants).

Your partner knows what you require to stay in the relationship. So it's fair to just step back and let her actions speak for her. 

Keep a journal. Look for a pattern of escalating contact with the OM or any other self destructive social behavior that you don't want to live with - and then make up your own mind (independent of her excuses).


----------



## turnera

Hire a PI to get proof. Get it over with.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> I'm sorry you still feel unsafe with your partner. Feeling unsafe can be as destructive to a relationship as adultery. Not as unsafe as before but then again this all happened only 5 months ago.
> 
> NC is usually a non negotiable requirement for rebuilding trust. You were more than generous to allow exceptions to NC with the OM with respect to 'play dates' for the teenage girls. Unfortunately, she does not seem grateful for your gift.
> 
> 1 - was this the first time since January that the teenage girls got together? If so, their relationship does not seem that tight or necessary. Maybe you should rethink this 'exception' to NC. I think they hung out a few other times but they coordinated with the girl's mother and not Dave.
> 
> Visiting the OM's house without telling you in advance is not consistent with someone that is afraid that you'll leave her; NOR is her behavior consistent with someone that acknowledges that their behavior/lack of boundaries with the OM is/was inappropriate. Yes, like I said it was the first time in a while it happened. Her story of course is that she had to drop off her niece to be babysat.
> 
> Instead, her behavior is consistent with someone that goes along with you just enough (by doing the minimum) to keep a comfortable home for her and her teenage daughter. You definitely may be right. She may try and push me as far as she think she can.
> 
> Since (in your mind) this is an ongoing 'test' and you don't want to spend the rest of your life spying on her, perhaps you should step back and let her sink or swim.
> 
> Instead, for the next 3 months or whatever you can tolerate, step back and observe how long and how often there's any contact with the OM (or other behavior with her friends that you don't want to live with). Keep a journal, including what level of detail (if any) she volunteers before and after. Does she lie by minimizing or non disclosure of details? Let her party all night again at his house (if that's what she wants). i know most on this board thinks I will never dump her but I know and she knows if she has another all nighter there, its over.
> 
> Your partner knows what you require to stay in the relationship. So it's fair to just step back and let her actions speak for her.
> 
> Keep a journal. Look for a pattern of escalating contact with the OM or any other self destructive social behavior that you don't want to live with - and then make up your own mind (independent of her excuses).


----------



## Robert22205

You were more than generous to allow your GF to continue to have occasional contact with Dave or visit his house.

NC is generally a non negotiable requirement for R. People quit their job and, if necessary, move to another city in order to ensure zero contact.

Where there's accidental contact or contact can't be avoided, a cheater (i.e., your GF) that is making a good faith effort to be a safe partner immediately notifies their betrayed partner. Why? Because they acknowledge that any contact is bad for your healing/trust - but contact that you find out about later or on your own is 1,000 times worse. 

Also, your GF should be grateful to you. One way to show that gratitude would be for her to notify you immediately (not later) about visiting his house. 

She didn't stay long at Dave's house so the 'why' isn't as important as her failure to notify you. 

Would you dump her for this alone? Probably not. 

However, maybe you should ask yourself why she failed to notify you. For example: Is she stupid or mean? I don't think so.

Or is this her being (in the context of your relationship): selfish, entitled, and lacking in empathy for you?


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> You were more than generous to allow your GF to continue to have occasional contact with Dave or visit his house.
> 
> NC is generally a non negotiable requirement for R. People quit their job and, if necessary, move to another city in order to ensure zero contact.
> 
> Where there's accidental contact or contact can't be avoided, a cheater (i.e., your GF) that is making a good faith effort to be a safe partner immediately notifies their betrayed partner. Why? Because they acknowledge that any contact is bad for your healing/trust - but contact that you find out about later or on your own is 1,000 times worse. Agreed.
> 
> Also, your GF should be grateful to you. One way to show that gratitude would be for her to notify you immediately (not later) about visiting his house. Yea, she usually would tell me after the fact but not always when she first gets there.
> 
> She didn't stay long at Dave's house so the 'why' isn't as important as her failure to notify you.
> 
> Would you dump her for this alone? Probably not.
> 
> However, maybe you should ask yourself why she failed to notify you. For example: Is she stupid or mean? I don't think so. She knows I will likely get annoyed by it.
> 
> Or is this her being (in the context of your relationship): selfish, entitled, and lacking in empathy for you? I sometimes feel that.


So now this is happening: Some mutual friends of ours invited us over for dinner tomorrow night so it was to be the mutual friends (married couple), my partner and I, partner's bestie and her partner (Dave's brother). A while after the invite, the mutual friends invited Dave. They do not know about anything that went on last summer so that's why they invited him. Clearly the bestie is trying to get under my skin by hoping Dave will show up as in the chat window she said, "Yay, hope Dave can make it!" My partner is saying she wont go now and that's she "sick of it (constantly having to worry about it)", and how it "stresses her so much" and how "I need to be in her shoes as well to understand." So it looks like she is refusing to go.


----------



## Nucking Futs

wxman3441 said:


> So now this is happening: Some mutual friends of ours invited us over for dinner tomorrow night so it was to be the mutual friends (married couple), my partner and I, partner's bestie and her partner (Dave's brother). A while after the invite, the mutual friends invited Dave. They do not know about anything that went on last summer so that's why they invited him. Clearly the bestie is trying to get under my skin by hoping Dave will show up as in the chat window she said, "Yay, hope Dave can make it!" My partner is saying she wont go now and that's she "sick of it (constantly having to worry about it)", and how it "stresses her so much" and how "I need to be in her shoes as well to understand." *So it looks like she is refusing to go. FML.*


So she's publicly refusing to socialize with Dave, and you've got a problem with that?


----------



## wxman3441

No not at all. Im glad shes taking the high road. Just a lot of drama because she happened to fall for a guy in her social circle.


----------



## Nucking Futs

wxman3441 said:


> No not at all. Im glad shes taking the high road. Just a lot of drama because she happened to fall for a guy in her social circle.


Oh. FML must mean something different to me than to you.


----------



## manwithnoname

She may say she's not going until the last minute when you are into something else and can't go, then she may change her mind.

I may be thinking about someone else, but didn't she pull something like this before?


----------



## hinterdir

I don't know what to tell you. I have a zero tolerance policy. Interacting secretly, inappropriately, flirting, private dates, talks with other men would be on the verge of a deal breaking, marriage breaking situation. If she didn't cut all ties and contact with someone what was a potential emotional affair situation than I would end things. 
Successful marriages put each other first, put the marriage bond first. If they are putting some opposite sex friend fantasy first and gets too close with another man than I'm not going to be happy and will want it cut off and for that relationship to die. If I thought for a moment she actually did something physical with someone else it would be nuclear. She would be dead to me. Divorce. Not a chance in hell I'd ever want her again. 

It seems like the time for you to enforce major boundaries or end things passed a LOOOOONG TIME AGO.


PS - I read through many of the other details to see how inappropriate and unfaithful this woman has been to you. 
When you are in a committed relationship or marriage you both give up selfish things and do what is best for the relationship not what is just a selfish want that hurts your partner. 
WHY do you still even want to be with this person? 
Are you that terrified of being alone and having to date and find someone new that you will stay with this and put up with this abuse, betrayal?
She acts as if she just wants to act single. SHE IS NOT. 
If she wants to act single. Turn her loose and make her single.

PSS
Any good spouse, if they were around someone a lot, a co-worker for example, would choose their marriage and cut all contact with that person and only interact as little as possible if work required it. They would choose their marriage and starve those feelings by no contact....not go out with the person, stay out until 4am with them, talk to them all the time, lunches and dinners and tons of quality time. That makes the feelings grow.

Edited by Moderator.


----------



## Robert22205

_*My partner is saying she wont go now and that's she "sick of it (constantly having to worry about it)", and how it "stresses her so much" and how "I need to be in her shoes as well to understand." *_

IMO, her 'stress' is self imposed and caused 100% by your GF's refusal to do whatever it takes to remove Dave from your lives. She sets herself up to fail by creating false excuses around her bestie or her teenage daughter. Reconciling and rebuilding trust after an affair is hard work. Your GF may not be capable of consistently doing the hard work day after day - for years.

Dave (the OM), his brother, and your GF's bestie all know the back story of the affair. Everyone knows about the affair except this couple hosting supper. 

1- IMO, the appropriate response should have been immediate. For example: if Dave attends then we will not; or if Dave shows up then we will leave. 

Now if she cancels (after talking to you) she can blame you. 

2 - At least in the moment this is your GF saying: haven't I 'suffered' long enough ... why haven't you gotten over my affair by now? 
(i.e., she sees herself as a victim of you being unreasonable) 

3 - It's a red flag that she sees her 'stress' or discomfort as in anyway comparable to what her affair did to you (i.e., although she knows the affair made you angry, she doesn't understand the depth of the pain she caused and still causes by contact with Dave)

4 - I think at some point she's building a case in her head that she's a victim ... that Dave is a necessary part of her life (and you are unreasonably distrustful and/or controlling).


----------



## a_new_me

Sorry if I am wrong, there are too may posts to go through.

When did this change from friends that pushed boundaries into a full blown affair?

I possibly missed a lot because the message count is getting exhausting and confusing, but from what I have read, you are both responsible.

She may have become too close to “Dave”, but you went into full blown jealous mode, which probably pushed her away further.

By stopping her from being with her friends, you are isolating her from her relationships.
That is abuse.

At first she had a crush. So? I think lots of men are hot. Does not mean I am going to jump into bed with them. 

You admitted this is causing her stress.

Stop allowing paranoia to drive your behaviour. It will only push her further towards spite and revenge. 

Do not socially isolate her, it will do the same.

Break up and get individual counselling, or work together and get relationship counselling. Visiting a Mental Health Practitioner would also help. That seems to be the true cause.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wxman3441

Hi a_new_me, 

You can argue about whether or not it was a full blown affair but she did have a crush and feelings for this man, even admitting she was crazy about him. 

The problem here is that Dave is right in the middle of her friend‘a social circle, even lives with him and he is her best friend’s boyfriend’s brother. Spending time with her essentially means spending time with Dave. 

I NEVER told her to stop seeing her friends. I do not believe in controlling people. I just suggested that it would be best for our relationship if they did not have contact bit they have had contact several time’s since I found out about what was going on. 

My mood changes when I find out she has been over there so she doesn’t want to go but then makes me feel guilty so I don’t know what to do.


----------



## Robert22205

Do not question whether you are being unreasonable or controlling or a jealous guy. There's only one person that you asked your GF to avoid. If that request is pushing her away - then you've already lost her. At the very least she should let you know in advance that she's going over to that house 

As I recall your GF has continued to show too much awareness/concern for Dave's welfare. For example, sending him Xmas dinner. 
Didn't Dave support his brother beating your GF's bestie? No woman should be reaching out in any way to these two POS.

Being attracted to another person is not noteworthy. What makes your GF's behavior different than a harmless 'crush' (and therefore inappropriate) is that she acted on her feelings for Dave. She excluded you from social events so she could have alone time with Dave. She also staked out her territory by informing her girlfriend that Dave was hers. 

She then spent a drunken/drugged out overnight party at Dave's house that nobody talks to you about. Her bestie advised her to never let you know what took place.

BTW:

Did your GF ever admit that her behavior toward Dave was inappropriate?
Did she apologize for excluding you from social events so she could be with Dave?
Did she apologize for hurting you?
Did she apologize for damaging your trust in her?


----------



## Lostinthought61

Wxman, 

not sure who you are trying to convince here, us the readers or yourself that you have a handle on this. this mini battles with her amount to no victory at all.


----------



## turnera

It's much simpler to just say "I won't live a life where my partner spends time with another man I'm uncomfortable about. Your choice, but my choice is to end a relationship if my partner isn't putting my needs first." And then ACT on it. She'll learn really quickly.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Do not question whether you are being unreasonable or controlling or a jealous guy. There's only one person that you asked your GF to avoid. If that request is pushing her away - then you've already lost her. At the very least she should let you know in advance that she's going over to that house
> 
> As I recall your GF has continued to show too much awareness/concern for Dave's welfare. For example, sending him Xmas dinner.
> Didn't Dave support his brother beating your GF's bestie? No woman should be reaching out in any way to these two POS.
> 
> Being attracted to another person is not noteworthy. What makes your GF's behavior different than a harmless 'crush' (and therefore inappropriate) is that she acted on her feelings for Dave. She excluded you from social events so she could have alone time with Dave. She also staked out her territory by informing her girlfriend that Dave was hers.
> 
> She then spent a drunken/drugged out overnight party at Dave's house that nobody talks to you about. Her bestie advised her to never let you know what took place.
> 
> BTW:
> 
> Did your GF ever admit that her behavior toward Dave was inappropriate? It took a while to get it out of her but yes although she still seem to think it was mostly harmless.
> Did she apologize for excluding you from social events so she could be with Dave? Yes but again, she didn't think it was as wrong as many think.
> Did she apologize for hurting you?
> Did she apologize for damaging your trust in her? yes and yes.
> 
> I think the thing that annoys me most of her most recent comment of, "everyone moves on at some point but you haven't."


----------



## a_new_me

wxman3441 said:


> Hi a_new_me,
> 
> You can argue about whether or not it was a full blown affair but she did have a crush and feelings for this man, even admitting she was crazy about him.
> 
> The problem here is that Dave is right in the middle of her friend‘a social circle, even lives with him and he is her best friend’s boyfriend’s brother. Spending time with her essentially means spending time with Dave.
> 
> I NEVER told her to stop seeing her friends. I do not believe in controlling people. I just suggested that it would be best for our relationship if they did not have contact bit they have had contact several time’s since I found out about what was going on.
> 
> My mood changes when I find out she has been over there so she doesn’t want to go but then makes me feel guilty so I don’t know what to do.




Well, I live beside a man that could easily portray James Bond. Accent, eyes...etc..

Oh wow, I have a crush on him.

I am not going to jump into bed with him though. I am also not going to socially isolate him or myself because he is stunning.

You are acting unreasonably.

Everyone looks. It is a natural part of human behaviour.

Jealousy stems from insecurity.
Reflect.
What happened to make you so insecure?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## manwithnoname

a_new_me said:


> Well, I live beside a man that could easily portray James Bond. Accent, eyes...etc..
> 
> Oh wow, I have a crush on him.
> 
> I am not going to jump into bed with him though. I am also not going to socially isolate him or myself because he is stunning.
> 
> You are acting unreasonably.
> 
> Everyone looks. It is a natural part of human behaviour.
> 
> Jealousy stems from insecurity.
> Reflect.
> What happened to make you so insecure?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Silliness. This is totally different. This is someone who lives next to you. If you have a partner, do you think it would be appropriate for you to go to James Bond's place without your partner and party all night with James Bond? And with your crush and under the influence of alcohol and drugs, do you not think it would end up with sex?


----------



## BluesPower

wxman3441 said:


> Hi a_new_me,
> 
> You can argue about whether or not it was a full blown affair but she did have a crush and feelings for this man, even admitting she was crazy about him.
> 
> The problem here is that Dave is right in the middle of her friend‘a social circle, even lives with him and he is her best friend’s boyfriend’s brother. Spending time with her essentially means spending time with Dave.
> 
> I NEVER told her to stop seeing her friends. I do not believe in controlling people. I just suggested that it would be best for our relationship if they did not have contact bit they have had contact several time’s since I found out about what was going on.
> 
> My mood changes when I find out she has been over there so she doesn’t want to go but then makes me feel guilty so I don’t know what to do.


No brother, the problem is you... 

Your problem is you did not catch them having sex but everyone knows that they did. 

Your problem is you are so far in denial there appears to be no way out. 

Bless you, I really hope you come out of it soon...


----------



## Robert22205

_*"I think the thing that annoys me most of her most recent comment of, "everyone moves on at some point but you haven't."*_

Ouch! I'm sorry she said that to you. 

1 - Last summer, you caught your GF acting out on her feelings for Dave by: excluding you from social activities, telling her girlfriend that Dave was hers, and subsequently being advised by her bestie to never tell you what happened when she partied/spent the entire night at Dave's house. 

2 - She still talks to Dave. She insists she can't and hasn’t gone zero contact because her 13yo daughter is best friends with Dave's daughter.

3 - Plus her occasional comments/gestures (even if separated by a month or two) show she thinks positively toward Dave - or maybe she even looks up to him as a relatively successful business owner vs your GF's family & close friends. 

Question: There are many reasons to object to her comment - but my response and others may be more on target/useful to you if you share with us just what exactly you find annoying about her recent comment?


----------



## wxman3441

BluesPower said:


> No brother, the problem is you...
> 
> Your problem is you did not catch them having sex but everyone knows that they did.
> 
> Your problem is you are so far in denial there appears to be no way out.
> 
> Bless you, I really hope you come out of it soon...


A_new_me,

With all due respect, I don't think you are up to speed with everything that has happened here. To quickly summarize:

*Last summer, I had suspicions and discovered via text messages, that my partner developed feelings and had a crush on another man who happened to be her best friend's boyfriend's brother. 

She intentionally left me out of social gathering and spent a fair bit of time with this man without me, including spending the night at his place one night, albeit he lives with several other people. 

The texts I found has her using words and phrases like, "crazy about him", "feeling are way less intense now", We were hopeless and engaged in the kitchen this morning", etc. 

After confronting her, the "affair" seemed to subside, but since this man is in the middle of her best friend's social circle, she has still had some occasional contact with him. Since it has been about 8 months, she is expecting me to "just move on". 

There is no clear evidence that they kissed or had sex although many on this forum are convinced they did. She of course denies it and has just called it an "innocent crush".*


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> _*"I think the thing that annoys me most of her most recent comment of, "everyone moves on at some point but you haven't."*_
> 
> Ouch! I'm sorry she said that to you.
> 
> 1 - Last summer, you caught your GF acting out on her feelings for Dave by: excluding you from social activities, telling her girlfriend that Dave was hers, and subsequently being advised by her bestie to never tell you what happened when she partied/spent the entire night at Dave's house. Yes, although the last part I don't think happened although she did tell another friend that she was going to avoid me for a while to which her friend replied, "Smart" followed by my partner saying "LOL".
> 
> 2 - She still talks to Dave. She insists she can't and hasn’t gone zero contact because her 13yo daughter is best friends with Dave's daughter. You are right. Dave actually called my partner the other day because his daughter was recently in Costa Rica and came home sick and she came in contact with my step daughter. I can understand the call being necessary given the COVID-19 pandemic but clearly with their kids being good friend, no contact is unavoidable.
> 
> 3 - Plus her occasional comments/gestures (even if separated by a month or two) show she thinks positively toward Dave - or maybe she even looks up to him as a relatively successful business owner vs your GF's family & close friends. Yes, possibly.
> 
> Question: There are many reasons to object to her comment - but my response and others may be more on target/useful to you if you share with us just what exactly you find annoying about her recent comment?
> 
> What's annoying about is, I should not be expected to just "get over it". Not 8 months after the fact, not a year after the fact, not even maybe ever. Expecting no contact unless absolutely necessary is not asking too much.


----------



## wxman3441

Wow, I could write a book on this whole thing. Maybe I really do like the drama. 

So here is the latest development. Apparently my partner's "sister" (We will call her Karen), wanted to visit for a while and wait out the pandemic. I put sister in quotes since they are sisters because my partner's dad and her foster mom got married. Karen lives in a remote town about 6 hours away. My partner was a bit on the fence about Karen coming since Karen, when single, tends to spend a lot of time partying and sleeping with random men, and coming into contact with many people and bringing that home given what is currently happening is not a good idea. 

So yesterday, Karen revealed the real reason why she wants to visit. Is it because that Dave reached out to her and asked her to come visit for a few days and spend the night at his place one night. Really??? I can't even remember a time when they met. OK, so maybe this hammers home the fact that Dave and my partner likely aren't still in any romantic contact but both Dave and Karen are showing absolutely no respect for me or my relationship by doing this since it essentially creates more drama and keeps Dave in the picture. My partner is upset with Karen since she admitted to trying to repair the relationship with me and why she would choose to do this with Dave of all of the people available. She did say to Karen that she no longer has feelings for Dave and that is not why she is upset about this.

I mean, for real? My partner's actions have been problematic over the past year but even more disturbing is how little respect some of the people my partner is close to have shown me.


----------



## Robert22205

"_*I think the thing that annoys me most of her most recent comment of, "everyone moves on at some point but you haven't."*_

Thank you for sharing how her recent (above) comment made you feel.

Your response is valid. Whether it was 8 months ago or yesterday is irrelevant because Dave's continued presence in your relationship keeps the wound open and festering. 

After all that's happened and been discussed your GF should be proactively protecting you and your relationship. And I also don't think the problem is limited to just Dave. 

You can't control your GF's behavior and her decisions (nor should you). However, you can and should protect yourself. You have a right to live the best version of your life. 

IMO, her recent comment is particularly disturbing as well as discouraging because it suggests she has a core moral value that tolerates infidelity. If that's true, then you haven't even started to reconcile. Instead you've just been in data gathering mode to decide whether to R.

Does she & her friends (and perhaps her family) have a history of viewing infidelity as something that's common and/or expected from time to time? 

And although infidelity initially triggers anger & heartbreak, in her world if the affair stops then is the betrayed partner expected to just get over it (i.e., until next time)?


----------



## Robert22205

I'm surprised your GF was upset. Your GF puts on a good dramatic show for you but doesn't proactively protect you through her actions. 

Based on her recent comment, IMO she's using this opportunity to claim some undeserved credit for trying to repair the relationship (all the while continuing contact with Dave (and notifying you after the fact of visits to his house)). 

What did you say to your girlfriend?


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> I'm surprised your GF was upset. Your GF puts on a good dramatic show for you but doesn't proactively protect you through her actions.
> 
> Based on her recent comment, IMO she's using this opportunity to claim some undeserved credit for trying to repair the relationship (all the while continuing contact with Dave (and notifying you after the fact of visits to his house)).
> 
> What did you say to your girlfriend?


She hasnt mentioned this to me. I overheard her on the phone discussing this situation with her sister sleeping with Dave. Apparently she is in town now and stayed at Dave's last night. We will see if my partner avoids going over there over the next few days.


----------



## manwithnoname

wxman3441 said:


> She hasnt mentioned this to me. I overheard her on the phone discussing this situation with her sister sleeping with Dave. Apparently she is in town now and stayed at Dave's last night. We will see if my partner avoids going over there over the next few days.


Your partner is jealous. It has nothing to do with you.


----------



## Robert22205

1 - IMO, the exchange with her sister is not evidence that your GF no longer has feelings for Dave. 
From what evidence you have of your GF's affair (except for her overnight at Dave's house) it appears that it was always one sided on her part. 

However, assuming he wasn't particularly interested in your GF, that doesn't mean he wouldn't take what's offered. For example, from your description of the GF's sister, clearly his standards aren't that high.

2 - Did you hear the sister's side of the conversation? I don't think your GF thinks her sister dating Dave is awkward. It's more likely your GF was reacting to her sister suggesting that the 6 of you get together (you, Dave, and his brother).

3 - IMO, from your posts, your GF's 'friends' & family are not a good influence and are as much a threat to your relationship as your GF's behavior. You shouldn't be looking to them for any support, respect or validation. Probably just the opposite.


----------



## Robert22205

Do you work on the weekends? How will you monitor her or know to what extent she interacts with Dave?

Even if she goes over to his house, she won't be alone with Dave. This is exactly the kind of grey area your GF exploits to justify/excuse her violating boundaries.

Be prepared for drama and her to say that Dave is no longer single and it's time for you to move on.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> 1 - IMO, the exchange with her sister is not evidence that your GF no longer has feelings for Dave. Even if she told her that she doesn't?
> From what evidence you have of your GF's affair (except for her overnight at Dave's house) it appears that it was always one sided on her part.
> 
> However, assuming he wasn't particularly interested in your GF, that doesn't mean he wouldn't take what's offered. For example, from your description of the GF's sister, clearly his standards aren't that high. You may be right. My GFs sister is very attractive but shes an emotional mess.
> 
> 2 - Did you hear the sister's side of the conversation? I don't think your GF thinks her sister dating Dave is awkward. It's more likely your GF was reacting to her sister suggesting that the 6 of you get together (you, Dave, and his brother). No I dont think that the sister wants all of the us to get together my GF feels awkward about because of all of the available men, she chose Dave who has contributed to the problems in our relationship.
> 
> 3 - IMO, from your posts, your GF's 'friends' & family are not a good influence and are as much a threat to your relationship as your GF's behavior. You shouldn't be looking to them for any support, respect or validation. Probably just the opposite. Very true here. Her family members have always treated me well but through her friends and family are a lot of cases of mental health issues and addition and general poor life choices. It has had an impact on our relationship in the past. If fact, I think some of my very first posts on this site pertained to my GFs brother who used to live with us, and essentially live OFF of us.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Do you work on the weekends? How will you monitor her or know to what extent she interacts with Dave? I track her on my phone but otherwise I really won't know.
> 
> Even if she goes over to his house, she won't be alone with Dave. This is exactly the kind of grey area your GF exploits to justify/excuse her violating boundaries.Yes, there is always many people there.
> 
> Be prepared for drama and her to say that Dave is no longer single and it's time for you to move on. Dave will no longer be single because he's dating her sister? Her sister lives 6 hours away so I think this is just a booty call for him.


----------



## Robert22205

I apologize. I missed that she told her sister that she's not jealous because she no longer has feelings for Dave. I'm still not sure it means anything. She could also mean she's just not currently interested in acting on her feelings for him.

Why could she still have feelings for him? because she doesn't recoil in disgust when Dave's name is mentioned or when she has to have contact. 

IMO, cheaters (who are truly remorseful ...not just regretful) eventually acknowledge to themselves that their behavior was not only inappropriate - but they view their love interest in negative terms (if only because it was self destructive behavior). For example, she should recoil in disgust at his name or each time there's contact. Clearly, he's not a bad memory to her.

I skipped over this sentence:
_The texts I found has her using words and phrases like, "crazy about him", "feeling are way less intense now", We were hopeless and engaged in the kitchen this morning", etc. _

1 - do the texts indicate a decline in interest over time (where in the timeline did the kitchen episode occur)?
2 - Who, where, when and what is this text referring to: "We were hopeless and engaged in the kitchen this morning" 
3- She was crazy about him ? Did you ever ask her what she found attractive about Dave (successful businessman, handsome, funny, good father, makes her feel special)? Specifically, what does he offer that you don't? The answer is important to understanding her feelings toward him today.


----------



## Tobyboy

Dude! This guy Dave sure knows how to get your wifes/partner attention! Look at this way, he’s got your partner eating out of his hand(sends him food, brings her daughter to play with his, probably makes her do things she doesn’t do for you sexually.......and it doesn’t cost him a cent!!!) SHE GOES TO HIM!!

Now, he’s got your partners sister coming to him from far away to give some free sex!

Who’s the dumbass financing/enabling this crap?


----------



## oldtruck

Robert22205 said:


> I apologize. I missed that she told her sister that she's not jealous because she no longer has feelings for Dave. I'm still not sure it means anything. She could also mean she's just not currently interested in acting on her feelings for him.
> 
> Why could she still have feelings for him? because she doesn't recoil in disgust when Dave's name is mentioned or when she has to have contact.
> 
> IMO, cheaters (who are truly remorseful ...not just regretful) eventually acknowledge to themselves that their behavior was not only inappropriate - but they view their love interest in negative terms (if only because it was self destructive behavior). For example, she should recoil in disgust at his name or each time there's contact. Clearly, he's not a bad memory to her.
> 
> I skipped over this sentence:
> _The texts I found has her using words and phrases like, "crazy about him", "feeling are way less intense now", We were hopeless and engaged in the kitchen this morning", etc. _
> 
> 1 - do the texts indicate a decline in interest over time (where in the timeline did the kitchen episode occur)?
> 2 - Who, where, when and what is this text referring to: "We were hopeless and engaged in the kitchen this morning"
> 3- She was crazy about him ? Did you ever ask her what she found attractive about Dave (successful businessman, handsome, funny, good father, makes her feel special)? Specifically, what does he offer that you don't? The answer is important to understanding her feelings toward him today.


this is why there must be NC after an affair.

what the WW says, and what she feels do not have to match.
she claims she does not want the OM now, yet her being mad at her sis
shows that she is still jealous of anyone that she knows gets to have the 
OM instead of herself.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> I apologize. I missed that she told her sister that she's not jealous because she no longer has feelings for Dave. I'm still not sure it means anything. She could also mean she's just not currently interested in acting on her feelings for him.
> 
> Why could she still have feelings for him? because she doesn't recoil in disgust when Dave's name is mentioned or when she has to have contact. Yea I dont think she looks upon Dave with disgust.
> 
> IMO, cheaters (who are truly remorseful ...not just regretful) eventually acknowledge to themselves that their behavior was not only inappropriate - but they view their love interest in negative terms (if only because it was self destructive behavior). For example, she should recoil in disgust at his name or each time there's contact. Clearly, he's not a bad memory to her.
> 
> I skipped over this sentence:
> _The texts I found has her using words and phrases like, "crazy about him", "feeling are way less intense now", We were hopeless and engaged in the kitchen this morning", etc. _
> 
> 1 - do the texts indicate a decline in interest over time (where in the timeline did the kitchen episode occur)? All of the above texts occurred last summer. The kitchen episode was last July.
> 2 - Who, where, when and what is this text referring to: "We were hopeless and engaged in the kitchen this morning" This also happened last July. We held a big birthday party for her daughter. The next morning, Dave came to pick up his daughter who spent the night. She discussed this event in a text where she said. "My feelings are way less intense because I have been busy this summer.... But we were hopeless and engaged in the kitchen this morning." So basically she is saying that while some her feelings were dissipating, the chat in the kitchen that day kind of reignited the fire?
> 3- She was crazy about him ? Did you ever ask her what she found attractive about Dave (successful businessman, handsome, funny, good father, makes her feel special)? Specifically, what does he offer that you don't? The answer is important to understanding her feelings toward him today. She told me that she didn't find him physically attractive but that she was attracted to his words. In short, she is an extrovert and I am an introvert so she is attracted to people who carry on great conversations. Dave apparently is a good conversationalist where I am not as good.


----------



## Robert22205

_*She told me that she didn't find him physically attractive but that she was attracted to his words. In short, she is an extrovert and I am an introvert so she is attracted to people who carry on great conversations. Dave apparently is a good conversationalist where I am not as good.*_

IMO, this is just another version of: “we’re just friends”; and then she slams/blames you for her EA because you’re not as ‘good’ a conversationalist. 

Excluding you from social activities (among other things) so she could pursue Dave was not consistent with her just seeking innocent conversation (or we’re just friends). 

I’m not surprised that she finds him (or some other guy 5 years from now) to be a more interesting ‘conversationalist’. 

Why? Because she’s lived with you (in the daily grind) for years. Therefore, it’s not surprising that she’d view him as an exciting new car experience - while you’re the old klunker she’s been driving for years. 

That’s why a spouse (or life partner) can never compete (nor should they have to). A safe partner protects the relationship by avoiding situations (with boundaries) that could (in her mind) develop into a competition.

IMO, her active pursuit of Dave is consistent with a lack of boundaries plus: she liked Dave's attention because it satisfied some emotional need which made her feel good about herself - or special in some way. 

From her text about the kitchen incident, she knew her actions & feelings for Dave were inappropriate but each time she sees him those ‘feelings’ re-ignite. As others have pointed out, that’s why NC is required. 

Questions:

1 - What did you personally observe when she’s with him? Did she 'light up' when she was around him? 
2- Does she still stick to her story that they’re just friends?
3 – Have either of you read/discussed: “Not Just Friends” by Dr Shirley Glass?
4- How did the sister’s visit with Dave go this weekend? Did you GF see Dave this weekend? Anymore drama about you interfering with your GF’s social life?


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> _*She told me that she didn't find him physically attractive but that she was attracted to his words. In short, she is an extrovert and I am an introvert so she is attracted to people who carry on great conversations. Dave apparently is a good conversationalist where I am not as good.*_
> 
> IMO, this is just another version of: “we’re just friends”; and then she slams/blames you for her EA because you’re not as ‘good’ a conversationalist.
> 
> Excluding you from social activities (among other things) so she could pursue Dave was not consistent with her just seeking innocent conversation (or we’re just friends).
> 
> I’m not surprised that she finds him (or some other guy 5 years from now) to be a more interesting ‘conversationalist’.
> 
> Why? Because she’s lived with you (in the daily grind) for years. Therefore, it’s not surprising that she’d view him as an exciting new car experience - while you’re the old klunker she’s been driving for years. Harsh but yes a very good analogy.
> 
> That’s why a spouse (or life partner) can never compete (nor should they have to). A safe partner protects the relationship by avoiding situations (with boundaries) that could (in her mind) develop into a competition. True
> 
> IMO, her active pursuit of Dave is consistent with a lack of boundaries plus: she liked Dave's attention because it satisfied some emotional need which made her feel good about herself - or special in some way.
> 
> From her text about the kitchen incident, she knew her actions & feelings for Dave were inappropriate but each time she sees him those ‘feelings’ re-ignite. As others have pointed out, that’s why NC is required. Yes very true.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1 - What did you personally observe when she’s with him? Did she 'light up' when she was around him? I didn't really analyze that closely. After she spent the night there last summer is when I started to get suspicious and I don't think I have seen Dave since.
> 2- Does she still stick to her story that they’re just friends? She has always concluded that this was an innocent crush, that she's human and this was happening at a time where I was a bit distant.
> 3 – Have either of you read/discussed: “Not Just Friends” by Dr Shirley Glass? No but we do need to get back to therapy and reading books like this after the pandemic.
> 4- How did the sister’s visit with Dave go this weekend? Did your GF see Dave this weekend? Anymore drama about you interfering with your GF’s social life? I honestly do not know how things went this weekend. She did not see Dave. We have been in the house exclusively for about a week since the COVID-19 got serious.
> 
> 
> We had a conversation today and some things were said that I found interesting. She actually brought up Dave and his ex girlfriend, the woman who he has 2 kids with including my step daughter's good friend. They do not get along well and apparently Dave has not been following the govt orders about isolating and continues to run his private business - this after he recently returned from a trip to Costa Rica. His ex wife called the authorities on him because of this which apparently caused a ruckus. She defended Dave and thought it was wrong for his ex-wife to rat him out like that. She certainty didn't speak of Dave with disdain as you suggested she should when trying to heal our relationship. It does seem that she still knows a lot of things going on in Dave's personal life. To be fair, it is quite possible she knows all of this information without talking directly to him. Her bestie lives in the same house and her and my gf talk on the phone and text everyday.
> 
> Thanks again for all of your help and advise. Means a lot.


----------



## a_new_me

You need to leave. She wont, so you do it. Sort out the other stuff through lawyers later. Be fair and kind to each other.

This has been going on since at least July. From the way you have explained the situation, it is nothing more than drama, which would probably get you all nominated for a Daytime Emmy, which has turned your relationship toxic.

Take time away. Reflect, grow, heal... as individuals.
After you are both in a better mental and emotional position independently, if you want to give it another shot, then try. If not, then walk away with your head high and without bitterness.

It sounds like there is a lot of resentment, and resentment will make any chance of survival impossible. It is toxic and just breeds more resentment and it also stays within people, and they then subject new partners to it. Destroyed Emotional wellbeing and the map to a life of misery right there. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Robert22205

I hope you guys are safe. Are you guys locked down? Is her sister staying with you?

btw: It's been a long time so I went back and reread the attachments (her texts) in your very first post.

The continued on and off contact with Dave prevents her from distancing herself from him emotionally & getting over him (evidenced by her current view that he can’t do any wrong …). 

Since she allowed herself to develop feelings for Dave, it’s not surprising she’d miss him in her life. That’s why NC is usually a non-negotiable requirement. Unfortunately, her daughter is a convenient excuse for a weak willed and/or self-destructive person to stay in contact.


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## Robert22205

_*“She has always concluded that this was an innocent crush, that she's human and this was happening at a time where I was a bit distant.”*_

I think you know that (based on those words), she neither acknowledges to you that her behavior was inappropriate/self-destructive (“it was just a crush”); nor does she acknowledge to herself that she is 100% in control and therefore 100% responsible for her decision & behavior (“she’s human/it’s your fault for being distant”).

“this was an innocent crush” – not true. Why?

Because people in a committed relationship don’t ‘act’ on a crush – but she did. She acted on her feelings by excluding you from social events so she could spend time with Dave, she spent an overnight at Dave’s house, and finally - the kitchen incident text and your initial sample text posts are clear evidence that she knew her feelings for Dave escalated to being inappropriate. In fact, in the texts attached to your first post she admits she over stepped her boundaries with Dave. 

“she’s human” – true and a good point. Humans are meant to reproduce. That’s why in order to protect a relationship she has the responsibility to avoid temptations by setting boundaries. For example, avoiding: socializing with other men without you, comparing you to other men, and avoiding/minimizing contact with a specific man she’s attracted to (before she develops ‘feelings’ that are unmanageable).

“this was happening at a time where I was a bit distant” – so what? Every relationship has problems. This is blaming you and it’s unfair for two reasons. First, relationship issues can only be successfully fixed within the relationship (not by seeking attention from another man which only causes more damage). Second, she’s blaming you for her decision to seek attention from another man (a decision that you were not a part of) – as if your behavior forced her to seek attention from Dave.


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## wxman3441

This is all true. Her behavior was inappropriate. It's funny, the other day we were chatting and she was talking about cutting people from her life who are bad influences and mentioned the bestie. I dont think she will actually do it, but the bestie must have tried to get my partner to get into a bad situation again.


----------



## Robert22205

IMO cutting all those toxic people from her life would be a huge (huge) step towards her being a safe partner for you as well as avoiding a lot of self destructive behavior to herself (which also impacts her daughter negatively too).

Another starting point would be for you both to read and then discuss: Not Just Friends by Dr Shirley Glass. 
By discuss I mean in a relaxed conversational manner over wine (not confrontational) and start with how it might apply to other people you guys know.


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## wxman3441

Hi guys,

Figured I would provide an update:

Since my last post, the pandemic hit shortly after. My partner and I actually were doing quite well though it. Since we were both working from home for a while, the housework was getting done and we were not butting heads as often. 

Fast forward to a few months ago when things started opening up here, we began having the same issues again, mainly just not clicking. To be transparent and not getting into too much detail, our sex life tailed off considerably and part of the problem is that I am on anti depressants that lower my libido. In a recent fight, she complained about my always working from home and how she never has “privacy” (I’m allowed to go back to work part time) and she seemed to scoff at the fact our relationship is 50/50. I still feel some resentment from her since I do not split my step daughters expenses with her equally.

I admittedly did something I’m not proud of and joined a private Facebook group for men who are going through mental illness. I asked some questions and made some complaints about problems in my relationship. The most recent one was about her starting an argument with me at 730am after I had just finished an overnight shift and couldn’t drive her to work. She was growing frustrated at all of the cab money she was spending and wanted to me to talk though a solution at that time event though I was dead tired. Turns out a troll in the group screenshotted some of my posts and sent it to her. Long story short, she was deeply hurt and broke up with me. This was 2 weeks ago.

I stayed in a hotel for a couple days and have been sleeping in a spare bedroom since. We getting along for the most part and not having deep convos about everything until she finishes working on a festival she preparing which goes off this week. I’ve been trying to give her space but she is upset I am not showing more remorse (I apologized tearfully that night) and am not “fighting for our family” aka her and her daughter. Her big issue is my communication which I admit is a flaw but in fairness I think she could work on that area too.

In fairness, she has mostly avoided Dave during the pandemic. However she has been over the house a few times recently including last night. Apparently Dave has a new gf now according to her. I started to move on from that but when October rolled around and the 1 year anniversary hit some bad feelings came up again.

I’m left confused. We have been though so much and while it may be in my best interest to move on I can’t help but feel a lot of guilt. My therapist suggested the only hope is to carefully map out a plan or go see a professional together but she doesn’t want to do that. She doesn’t want to bring up the past, only accept our flaws and move forward but I don’t see how that can work.


----------



## Andy1001

Round and round we go.
And then we are back where we started.


----------



## Divinely Favored

wxman3441 said:


> No not at all. Im glad shes taking the high road. Just a lot of drama because she happened to fall for a guy in her social circle.


She is refusing to socialize with YOU in front of Dave. Big tell.


----------



## jlg07

wxman3441 said:


> We have been though so much and while it may be in my best interest to move on I can’t help but feel a lot of guilt. My therapist suggested the only hope is to carefully map out a plan or go see a professional together but she doesn’t want to do that. She doesn’t want to bring up the past, only accept our flaws and move forward but I don’t see how that can work.


Why do YOU feel guilty? SHE is the one who has been having the affair, NOT YOU. Posting to a FB group? She REALLY thinks that is the equivalent of what SHE DID?
SHE IS STILL GOING to see this guy -- that he has a GF is irrelevant. SHE is still the problem.
Of course she doesn't want to go to therapy and "bring up the past" -- she wants you to rug sweep it, and then she can continue her plan to have her cake and eat it too. She doesn't want to put in the effort to help your marriage move past this, so a very poor choice for reconciliation.


----------



## Openminded

She’s not changing. You either need to accept her as is or you need to move on.


----------



## Prodigal

As we say in Al-Anon, "Nothing changes if nothing changes."


----------



## Robert22205

I'm sorry to hear about your latest update. I was hoping no news was good news.

I recall, you two are not married nor is her 15yo daughter yours. The girl's father is present as a father in the girl's life.

This all started when you found evidence that she was discouraging you from social functions so she could pursue Dave behind your back. Her response was to dismiss/minimize it by saying it was harmless and wouldn't have escalated to a PA.

I also recall your plan was to give her time to redeem herself or prove herself to be a safe life partner by adhering to certain clear boundaries/behavior (regarding NC with Dave, late night partying/drinking without you, drugs, and a generally sleazy group of 'friends').

I also believe she was to stop seeing her best GF who lives in Dave's house and dates Dave's brother (who has at least once hit the GF) - and is generally a huge bad influence on your partner. 

Could you please provide a little more detail?

1 -- Why are you ashamed of joining a private FB help group?

2 - What were you apologizing for (she should be angry at the POS that violated your privacy)?

3 - Why were you crying (really why)? Was she supposed to feel sorry for you?

4 -- Is my understanding correct, that she used the FB incident as an excuse to violate the agreed boundaries (NC with Dave and staying away from his 'party' house)?

5 - What are the detailed facts & circumstances behind each contact regarding the statement: "she mostly avoided contact with Dave prior to this latest mess"?

6 - Finally, does your partner (and her group of friends) believe that infidelity is basically part of a relationship. That's it's common and therefore not really a deal breaker. Rather you cheat in revenge and/or just yell scream cry - and then rugsweep and make each other miserable?


----------



## ABHale

You are a fool to still be with her.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your latest update. I was hoping no news was good news.
> 
> I recall, you two are not married nor is her 15yo daughter yours. The girl's father is present as a father in the girl's life.
> 
> This all started when you found evidence that she was discouraging you from social functions so she could pursue Dave behind your back. Her response was to dismiss/minimize it by saying it was harmless and wouldn't have escalated to a PA.
> 
> *Our struggles in this relationship actually started when we first moved in together 5 years ago and we had to support her then 20 y/o brother. I think I may have mentioned that in the past. *
> 
> I also recall your plan was to give her time to redeem herself or prove herself to be a safe life partner by adhering to certain clear boundaries/behavior (regarding NC with Dave, late night partying/drinking without you, drugs, and a generally sleazy group of 'friends').
> 
> *She actually was doing a pretty good job of that. There seemed to be strong evidence of NC, especially during the pandemic. She went over that house a couple months ago to help her friend with a project and apparently Dave wasn't there. *
> 
> I also believe she was to stop seeing her best GF who lives in Dave's house and dates Dave's brother (who has at least once hit the GF) - and is generally a huge bad influence on your partner.
> 
> *I don't think she ever agreed to stop seeing the friend. I never asked her to, just to see her at his house. *
> 
> Could you please provide a little more detail?
> 
> 1 -- Why are you ashamed of joining a private FB help group?
> 
> *Not really ashamed but I get why someone would be upset about finding that info*
> 
> 2 - What were you apologizing for (she should be angry at the POS that violated your privacy)?
> *
> Apologizing for essentially venting about problems in our relationship in a FB group full of strangers.*
> 
> 3 - Why were you crying (really why)? Was she supposed to feel sorry for you?
> 
> *No I guess not.*
> 
> 4 -- Is my understanding correct, that she used the FB incident as an excuse to violate the agreed boundaries (NC with Dave and staying away from his 'party' house)?
> 
> *Well she was at Dave's house the one time before this happened and played poker with them the other night (after we broke up). Apparently Dave's new GF was there. *
> 
> 5 - What are the detailed facts & circumstances behind each contact regarding the statement: "she mostly avoided contact with Dave prior to this latest mess"?
> 
> *I'm pretty sure she has not seen him from last December until the past month.*
> 
> 6 - Finally, does your partner (and her group of friends) believe that infidelity is basically part of a relationship. That's it's common and therefore not really a deal breaker. Rather you cheat in revenge and/or just yell scream cry - and then rugsweep and make each other miserable?
> 
> *Im not sure. However, I should point out that my partner's best friend has a history of cheating on men. Also, when I got suspicious of my partner again about 2 months ago, I recorded her (not proud of it) chatting with a friend. Dave actually came up. In a phone call with her bestie about 2 months ago, the bestie who was on speaker phone said that she missed my partner and Dave yelled out, "don't you miss me too, you don't come around anymore?" She also mentioned that "it broke her heart and crushed her soul." when she couldn't see Dave anymore and how she has found it hard to find meaningful conversations with me and how she had that with Dave, but nothing more. *


----------



## jlg07

SO she has broken NC, with apparently NO repercussions to her? She used the FB stuff to manipulate YOU into allowing her to go play poker with him, and she is still in the fog about him.

She isn't a safe partner for you right now, she hasn't done the work to a)understand WHY she allowed herself to become enamored with Dave, and b)to FIX the issues in your relationship.

She broke your rules (NC), she is STILL manipulating you to try and get with Dave, and SHE STILL (just 2 months ago??) talks about how it "breaks her heart" and "crushes her soul" that she can't see him anymore.

Of COURSE she has trouble having meaningful conversations with you -- because SHE DOESN'T WANT TO. She WANTS to have them with Dave.
She is STILL cheating on you.


----------



## wxman3441

jlg07 said:


> SO she has broken NC, with apparently NO repercussions to her? She used the FB stuff to manipulate YOU into allowing her to go play poker with him, and she is still in the fog about him.
> 
> She isn't a safe partner for you right now, she hasn't done the work to a)understand WHY she allowed herself to become enamored with Dave, and b)to FIX the issues in your relationship.
> 
> She broke your rules (NC), she is STILL manipulating you to try and get with Dave, and SHE STILL (just 2 months ago??) talks about how it "breaks her heart" and "crushes her soul" that she can't see him anymore.
> 
> Of COURSE she has trouble having meaningful conversations with you -- because SHE DOESN'T WANT TO. She WANTS to have them with Dave.
> She is STILL cheating on you.
> 
> *I should point out that this FB incident caused her to break up with me about 2 weeks ago. So her recent poker hangout with Dave technically happened when we were not a couple but yes the comments about her soul being crushed happened when we were still together. *


----------



## jlg07

@wxman3441, what you are missing is that SHE broke you up as a manipulation of the situation so that she could be with Dave. How is what you posted in FB any different than her complaining to her friends about you and how much she wants Dave? Hers is FAR WORSE. She WANTED to be able to be around Dave, even if he has a GF or not. SHE WANTS to be around him and in his life. She figured out a way to do that.

If you are "broken up" then is she not living with you anymore? Has she moved all of her stuff out of the house?
Maybe YOU should make sure that "breakup" is from YOUR side also, and make sure she does that (moves out and takes her stuff with her). Do you really want to be haunted by this guy for your entire relationship?
Use this to make a clean break from her.


----------



## wxman3441

jlg07 said:


> @wxman3441, what you are missing is that SHE broke you up as a manipulation of the situation so that she could be with Dave. How is what you posted in FB any different than her complaining to her friends about you and how much she wants Dave? Hers is FAR WORSE. She WANTED to be able to be around Dave, even if he has a GF or not. SHE WANTS to be around him and in his life. She figured out a way to do that.
> 
> If you are "broken up" then is she not living with you anymore? Has she moved all of her stuff out of the house?
> Maybe YOU should make sure that "breakup" is from YOUR side also, and make sure she does that (moves out and takes her stuff with her). Do you really want to be haunted by this guy for your entire relationship?
> Use this to make a clean break from her.


You definately have a point. She has teased wanting to work it out but the only way I would is if we do counseling which she had refused. We are still in the house togather and we have to figure out legally what to do next.


----------



## Openminded

If you aren’t married, what would there be legally to work out? Or is there common-law marriage where you are?


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## wxman3441

Openminded said:


> If you aren’t married, what would there be legally to work out? Or is there common-law marriage where you are?


Im not sure if there is common law here. The house is in my name. We each put $7K down for the down payments but she has mentioned me "buying her out" and giving her the $7K back.


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## jlg07

If she has already mentioned about you buying her out of the house, she WANTS to go. If $7k is all it takes, sounds like a bargain.
She STILL pines for the guy, STILL talks about him, STILL wants to go be with him, and will NOT do any of the work on your relationship? Nope, not a good case for reconciliation there.
Go see a lawyer to understand the laws etc, and make a plan.


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## Openminded

Her down payment of $7,000 back and it’s done? The sooner the better, I would say. Don’t be surprised if you hear they’re dating once she’s gone (assuming she actually does go — that remains to be seen).


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## Livvie

Give her the 7k and get her the **** out of your house and life now, before deep winter hits...

That's the beauty of not being married and not having children together. You know the relationship is crap, it won't take much to end it.


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## wxman3441

Livvie said:


> Give her the 7k and get her the **** out of your house and life now, before deep winter hits...
> 
> That's the beauty of not being married and not having children together. You know the relationship is crap, it won't take much to end it.


I dont make a ton of money - $7K is a fair bit for me.


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## Livvie

wxman3441 said:


> I dont make a ton of money - $7K is a fair bit for me.


It would be for me, too. Which is more important to you? Coming up with 7k somehow (maybe even a home equity loan) or continuing in a bad relationship?


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## jlg07

Well, create a payment plan (sorry, I wasn't trying to say that $7k is trivial, but in the larger scheme of many of the divorces here, it IS a small amount).
It would worth getting a small loan for that if this is all it would take to get YOUR life back.


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## re16

WXMAN, you've needed this to happen. Get the deal in writing and figure out how to get her the money and move on. I get that it feels like a lot, but your freedom from this is worth every penny.

If she goes after Dave now, he will know that he will potentially have all the baggage of having to pay for and take care of her and he'll reject her. Affair partners are fun and headache free, girlfriends are a different story.

She'll come running back to you as plan B when she is rejected.

Don't be plan B. Find a new plan A for yourself.


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## Evinrude58

Don’t give her squat and boot her ass out.
That 7k was rest money. You’re not married, and you’re not the dad. Geez, you do need to see an attorney and boot her.
In this case, I feel she is owed NOTHING, but your lawyer will tell you correctly.
Your gf is a total cheater and has no int test in you. If she could, she’d kick you out and give to zilch.
You can decide when and if you pay her back the 7k, if you feel you should. Up to you. She shouldn’t get a free ride.


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## Robert22205

1 - What did you say to each other when she mentioned going over to Dave's?

2 - Did she justify it because you were 'broken up'?

3 - What would happen if you informed her today that you want her out of the house in 30 days?


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## Robert22205

Did she share the mortgage, utilities and repairs 50% (or just live free off you)?

You can offset the housing costs against the $7,000.


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## Openminded

Just make sure you’re not looking for “reasons” to stay with her. You’ll end up regretting it if you do.


----------



## Livvie

Robert22205 said:


> Did she share the mortgage, utilities and repairs 50% (or just live free off you)?
> 
> You can offset the housing costs against the $7,000.


Yes, this is important. Did she pay you any rent, utilities, groceries, etc?


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> 1 - What did you say to each other when she mentioned going over to Dave's?
> 
> *The most recent time when they played poker? She just said she was going out then she told me later later where she was. *
> 
> 2 - Did she justify it because you were 'broken up'?
> 
> *No, she really didn't give a reason. She did mention Dave has a new GF of 6 months (his FB profile still says he single) and what she does for a living. When it came up in a recent argument I think she said something along the line of "you can't complain about that anymore." - since we are broken up. *
> 
> 3 - What would happen if you informed her today that you want her out of the house in 30 days?
> 
> *I think she has been thinking of vacating the house. She has mentioned multiple times that "how can you not fight for us?"*


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Did she share the mortgage, utilities and repairs 50% (or just live free off you)?
> 
> *I'd say it was closer to 60/40 with me paying more. Note that she doesn't drive so I did all of that. We didnt factor her child in the costs even though she stays here nearly full time. *
> 
> You can offset the housing costs against the $7,000.


----------



## jlg07

wxman3441 said:


> *I think she has been thinking of vacating the house. She has mentioned multiple times that "how can you not fight for us?"*


She's kidding RIGHT? You have been the only one working for the relationship. Why isn't she FIGHTING the fact that she wants to be with a different guy? That she STILL wants that, won't go to counseling, and runs to him at the slightest provocation?
You should ask why is she fighting to get AWAY from this relationship?


----------



## wxman3441

jlg07 said:


> She's kidding RIGHT? You have been the only one working for the relationship. Why isn't she FIGHTING the fact that she wants to be with a different guy? That she STILL wants that, won't go to counseling, and runs to him at the slightest provocation?
> You should ask why is she fighting to get AWAY from this relationship?


*She refuses counseling, says that it won't help. When Dave came up recently, she told me I was "practically ignoring" her, aka I drove her away. To be honest, I really dont recall. I suffer with mental illness and go through periods of depression so its possible but I can say that mom passed away unexpectedly in early March of last year and she starting showing interest in Dave by June. Obviously I was not in a good mental state from March into June so maybe I drive her away but naturally I had a good reason. *


----------



## jlg07

Nope this is blameshifting and re-writing your history. SHE is the ONLY PERSON responsible for cheating. If she any sort of moral backbone, she would have broken up with you before pursuing anyone else.
How can you fight for your relationship when SHE is refusing everything you suggest? I guess "fighting" in her opinion means you worship her, and let HER go and have her flings. Is THAT what she means? 
Sorry for your loss, but also another LOUSY reason for her to cheat. She should have been there for YOU and not be so selfish during a time of great emotional trouble for you. Instead of you grieving your loss and her helping you through it, she goes out and gets attracted to someone else?

So, now that you are "broken up", why is she still there? You don't live with someone you are broken up with, especially since SHE is the one who wanted to break up.

Next time she asks why aren't you fighting for our relationship, ask her what is there to fight for? She clearly doesn't want it, and you aren't just going to sit around being the ATM and providing a house for her to crash at while she pursues Dave.

And a question for you: IS there a relationship to really fight for? You need to answer that question for yourself.


----------



## wxman3441

jlg07 said:


> Nope this is blameshifting and re-writing your history. SHE is the ONLY PERSON responsible for cheating. If she any sort of moral backbone, she would have broken up with you before pursuing anyone else.
> How can you fight for your relationship when SHE is refusing everything you suggest? I guess "fighting" in her opinion means you worship her, and let HER go and have her flings. Is THAT what she means?
> Sorry for your loss, but also another LOUSY reason for her to cheat. She should have been there for YOU and not be so selfish during a time of great emotional trouble for you. Instead of you grieving your loss and her helping you through it, she goes out and gets attracted to someone else?
> 
> So, now that you are "broken up", why is she still there? You don't live with someone you are broken up with, especially since SHE is the one who wanted to break up.
> 
> *She claims to be looking for a new place. The home we live in was purchased together. We both put in an equal down payment however the house is in my name since her credit was too lousy to be put on the mortgage. *
> 
> Next time she asks why aren't you fighting for our relationship, ask her what is there to fight for? She clearly doesn't want it, and you aren't just going to sit around being the ATM and providing a house for her to crash at while she pursues Dave.
> 
> And a question for you: IS there a relationship to really fight for? You need to answer that question for yourself.
> *
> At this point, it is only worth fighting for if we go through serious hardcore counseling where a professional can assess everything but looks like that isnt happening. *


----------



## Openminded

She doesn’t drive? Where would she go? I think she really wants to stay where she is — unless she thinks she can move in with Dave — and all of this is to get you to panic and beg her to stay.


----------



## wxman3441

Openminded said:


> She doesn’t drive? Where would she go? I think she really wants to stay where she is — unless she thinks she can move in with Dave — and all of this is to get you to panic and beg her to stay.
> 
> *She never got her license. She would have to downgrade from a house to apt due to her poor credit and spending habits. Dave lives in a huge house with her brother and their kids but like I said he does apparently have a girlfriend now. *


----------



## Robert22205

Does Dave have room in his house for your partner?


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Does Dave have room in his house for your partner?


Im not really sure, but I would say yes. It is a huge house.


----------



## Robert22205

"I should point out that this FB incident caused her to break up with me about 2 weeks ago. So her recent poker hangout with Dave technically happened when we were not a couple but yes the comments about her soul being crushed happened when we were still together. "

1 - No the FB incident was not the reason she left you.

Talking to an anonymous 'private' self-help group is not a violation of her privacy. 
YOU ARE the victim here – the POS tattle-tail and your partner’s validation of the POS amounts to a violation of your privacy. 

She’s been white knuckling for months prior to the pandemic. FB was just the convenient excuse she was looking for to break free of the agreed upon boundaries - and spend time with him. 

Plus she admitted she couldn’t stand being around you all day during the pandemic.

Plus, she knew Dave was a deal breaker - but she did it anyway (knowing it would destroy you).

2 - Finally, and extremely important, is her comment that it crushes her soul not to have contact with Dave plus her asking for the return of her $7,000 should tell you that she's decided to exit the relationship.

3 - You did nothing wrong (nobody is perfect and she knew you long before moving in).

4 - I'm sorry to say this but she's already chosen free access to Dave, unlimited access to her best friend (and her physically abusive boyfriend), as well as the life style that they represent. 

There is no way you (the daily grind in her mind) can compete with Dave or any other guy.

5 - Finally, many people want out (and experience shows you can't nice them back) but aren't able to ask directly. Instead, they act out (like your partner), self - destruct and even accuse or blame you.


----------



## Robert22205

How long has she been looking for another place?


----------



## Robert22205

You didn't sabotage the relationship - she did (right from the start).

I can't advise you on how to tolerate her inappropriate behavior.
But I can advise you on how to exit an abusive relationship.

You don't need to wait until the $7,000 loan is resolved.
Nor do you need to give her unlimited time to find another place.

1 - First, buy a voice activated recorder and keep it with you at all time. You need to protect yourself from a domestic violence charge.

2 - Stop letting her control everything. Take control of the break up (you'll feel a little better). Stop discussing relationship issues - just be roommates. 

3 - The sooner she leaves the sooner you can start healing.

There's a lot of vacancies now because of the pandemic. Consider giving her 1 week to get out (or at least sign a lease) - or you will pack their bags and move them both to Dave's house.


----------



## Openminded

Then I would say be prepared for her moving in with Dave if there’s room. As to not getting her license, unless there’s a really good reason she hasn’t, that’s something she needs to work on. You won’t be around to do all the driving anymore (in theory anyway).


----------



## syhoybenden

$7K? Is that all?!! Get a line of credit. It’ll cost you what? 20, 30 bucks a month to carry it.

Hand her the cash. Show her the door. Then sit back, crack a cold one and …. aaahhhhh …. sweet relief.


----------



## Robert22205

Your relationship never had a chance. Why? because your partner sabotaged it by inserting a wedge between you two (i.e., Dave). 

And it's more than counting the frequency of contact with Dave or visits to his house.

She's made it clear that even when she's not in contact with Dave - that she misses him. Therefore, he's always present in your relationship. 

And it gets worse. She resents you for blocking contact (controlling her) and blames you in every way for her being unhappy.

Mature committed partners do not undermine their relationship by pining away for another man's attention. Instead they voluntarily go NC, refocus on their partner, and get over their obsession.

Finally, you can't control how she thinks (even when she's doing something stupid). 

All you can do is protect yourself by letting her go sooner than later. And on your terms not when it's convenient for her.


----------



## Robert22205

IMO your mental problems are made worse by her stating Dave gives her something you never can - and then her blaming you for her inappropriate behavior and unhappiness.

Don't feel guilty about showing her the door and insisting she move out or at least sign a lease in 1 week.
Don't feel guilty about her decrease in the quality of living.

Why? because she brought this all on herself. It's called consequences. She only has herself to blame for bringing Dave into your relationship. 

No partner should be expected to accept her obsession with another man. Among other things, it's selfish, lacks empathy for you, and is mentally abusive to you.

btw: and she was the only one that could kick him out of her head.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> "I should point out that this FB incident caused her to break up with me about 2 weeks ago. So her recent poker hangout with Dave technically happened when we were not a couple but yes the comments about her soul being crushed happened when we were still together. "
> 
> 1 - No the FB incident was not the reason she left you.
> 
> Talking to an anonymous 'private' self-help group is not a violation of her privacy.
> YOU ARE the victim here – the POS tattle-tail and your partner’s validation of the POS amounts to a violation of your privacy.
> 
> *Im trying to convince myself of that. It was a private group and shared with people she doesn't know. *
> 
> She’s been white knuckling for months prior to the pandemic. FB was just the convenient excuse she was looking for to break free of the agreed upon boundaries - and spend time with him.
> 
> Plus she admitted she couldn’t stand being around you all day during the pandemic.
> 
> *Not in so many words but yes she seemed to be getting annoyed that I was "always there". *
> 
> Plus, she knew Dave was a deal breaker - but she did it anyway (knowing it would destroy you).
> 
> 2 - Finally, and extremely important, is her comment that it crushes her soul not to have contact with Dave plus her asking for the return of her $7,000 should tell you that she's decided to exit the relationship.
> 
> *She has been asking why "I am not fighting for her and her daughter" though, suggesting she may not want me to leave the relationship for good. *
> 
> 3 - You did nothing wrong (nobody is perfect and she knew you long before moving in).
> 
> 4 - I'm sorry to say this but she's already chosen free access to Dave, unlimited access to her best friend (and her physically abusive boyfriend), as well as the life style that they represent.
> 
> There is no way you (the daily grind in her mind) can compete with Dave or any other guy.
> 
> *I can't compete with Dave from a conversation level. One of her big complaints is that we do not have enough "meaningful conversations" and I know she had that with Dave. *
> 
> 5 - Finally, many people want out (and experience shows you can't nice them back) but aren't able to ask directly. Instead, they act out (like your partner), self - destruct and even accuse or blame you.
> 
> *Does Dave supposedly having a new GF of 6 months mean anything?*


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> How long has she been looking for another place?
> 
> *Not sure, maybe since we broke up 15 days ago? She has been busy at work lately so I am not sure how hard she is looking.*


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> You didn't sabotage the relationship - she did (right from the start).
> 
> I can't advise you on how to tolerate her inappropriate behavior.
> But I can advise you on how to exit an abusive relationship.
> 
> You don't need to wait until the $7,000 loan is resolved.
> Nor do you need to give her unlimited time to find another place.
> 
> 1 - First, buy a voice activated recorder and keep it with you at all time. You need to protect yourself from a domestic violence charge.
> 
> 2 - Stop letting her control everything. Take control of the break up (you'll feel a little better). Stop discussing relationship issues - just be roommates.
> 
> 3 - The sooner she leaves the sooner you can start healing.
> 
> There's a lot of vacancies now because of the pandemic. Consider giving her 1 week to get out (or at least sign a lease) - or you will pack their bags and move them both to Dave's house.





Robert22205 said:


> You didn't sabotage the relationship - she did (right from the start).
> 
> I can't advise you on how to tolerate her inappropriate behavior.
> But I can advise you on how to exit an abusive relationship.
> 
> You don't need to wait until the $7,000 loan is resolved.
> Nor do you need to give her unlimited time to find another place.
> 
> 1 - First, buy a voice activated recorder and keep it with you at all time. You need to protect yourself from a domestic violence charge.
> 
> *I actually had one and occasionally recorded her, included when she recently admitted that her heart broke when she couldnt see Dave anymore. I got rid of it because she said she actually had a suspiction I was recording her. Isn't that illegal?*
> 
> 2 - Stop letting her control everything. Take control of the break up (you'll feel a little better). Stop discussing relationship issues - just be roommates.
> 
> 3 - The sooner she leaves the sooner you can start healing.
> 
> There's a lot of vacancies now because of the pandemic. Consider giving her 1 week to get out (or at least sign a lease) - or you will pack their bags and move them both to Dave's house.
> 
> *I am not sure I can legally? My name is on the mortgage only though.*


----------



## Openminded

She wants you to get back with her on her terms and that means you let her do whatever she chooses.

She doesn’t care if Dave has a current gf. Maybe she thinks if they live in the same house as roommates that she has a shot.


----------



## Livvie

She's been getting a free ride (literally).

Aren't you ready to stop being her free ride?


----------



## jlg07

"*I actually had one and occasionally recorded her, included when she recently admitted that her heart broke when she couldnt see Dave anymore. I got rid of it because she said she actually had a suspiction I was recording her. Isn't that illegal?* "
Which state do you live in? Some states allow one-party recording (so if YOU are in the conversation, you can record it even if the other party does NOT know about it), others require 2-party - you just have to look it up for your state.


----------



## wxman3441

jlg07 said:


> "*I actually had one and occasionally recorded her, included when she recently admitted that her heart broke when she couldnt see Dave anymore. I got rid of it because she said she actually had a suspiction I was recording her. Isn't that illegal?* "
> Which state do you live in? Some states allow one-party recording (so if YOU are in the conversation, you can record it even if the other party does NOT know about it), others require 2-party - you just have to look it up for your state.


I live in Newfoundland, Canada.


----------



## Openminded

You used to have a Canadian flag? Now it’s a U.S. flag?


----------



## manfromlamancha

OP, this should not be about whether you catch her talking to or being with Dave. The writing is very clearly written on the wall.

*She is crazy about Dave. Her heart breaks when she can't be with him.*

This is all you need to know and she has stated it as clearly as anyone would need to understand. Whether Dave is a better conversationalist or has a "current girlfriend" is immaterial (and is bullcrap anyway). That should be more than enough to end this farce. You need to be with someone who isn't crazy about another man.

In addition to this she has friends and a circle of others who do not give a crap about her relationship with you. Of course she doesn't want you to go or breakup right now. Of course she wants you to "fight for her and her daughter". It would be very impractical and uncomfortable for her otherwise. Be sure that if Dave provided a modicum of assurance to her (and her daughter), she would be gone like a bat out of hell. Deep down you know this. So why in hell's name are you not doing something about just this. She cannot talk her way out of saying what she said. In fact, she confirmed it to you again and again that she is attracted to him.

As for whether she has been with him or not is irrelevant right now. She desires him more than you and will find bullcrap reasons to explain it to you in terms of conversationalism etc etc. And you are (a) a nice guy, and (b) too worried or codependent to let her go.

Who wants a wife knowing she desires and lusts after another man that she still sees and talks to and runs around not telling you where she is to avoid this. As for doing anything with others while "broken up", come on man! She is supposed to have been with you all this time - does it really count for nothing even if you had just broken up. The norm is to grieve over a lost relationship not go round looking for the next gig immediately.


----------



## wxman3441

Openminded said:


> You used to have a Canadian flag? Now it’s a U.S. flag?


I was born and raised in US but now live and work in Canada


----------



## Evinrude58

I don’t believe you’ll divorce her. It’s a bluff.
Right?
Will you actually kick her out?
I can’t see you doing it. You’re too passive.


----------



## jlg07

wxman3441 said:


> I live in Newfoundland, Canada.


Seems like as long as YOU are a part of the conversation, it is legal:





Is it legal to record a conversation, tape a call, or 'bug' a telephone? - FREE Legal Information | Legal Line


Generally, it is illegal to secretly record oral communications between two or more people unless you have the consent of at least one of the individuals involved, or you are one of the parties to the conversation. Criminal Code offence There is a general prohibition against interception of...




www.legalline.ca










Is it legal to record a private conversation? Wiretapping and the one party consent exception to the rule against interception | LegalTree.ca







www.legaltree.ca


----------



## jlg07

manfromlamancha said:


> Who wants a wife knowing she desires and lusts after another man that she still sees and talks too and runs around not telling you where she is to avoid this


^^^ THIS. WHY do you want her so much when she wants someone else so much?


----------



## Chuck71

She is your drug............you will succumb to it....unless you break the chains


----------



## ah_sorandy

Who is Dave? And what happened to Karen?


----------



## Divinely Favored

She is trying to get you to be ok with her being around Dave since you know he has a GF dont you.

Not fighting for her....you should not have to fight for her. That is about her, she is upset you are not eating her crap and being greatful. In her mind you should be glad she is gracing you with her presence. I would not fight for a woman that plainly shows she would rather be with another man. Show her ass the door, she is not worthy.


----------



## Robert22205

1 - Has her renewed face to face contact with her Bestie and Dave and Dave's brother (and anyone else hanging around Dave's house) increased your exposure to Covid 19? 

Does this latest project (event) increase her (and your) exposure to Covid 19?

2 - Are you driving her around again?

3 - Are you continuing to subsidize her and/or her daughter?

4 - I understand she's not on the mortgage - but is she on the deed (or title)?

5 - She's an event planner? Has she been paying her share of the housing expenses during the pandemic?

6 - Who owns the furniture?

7 - IMO, since you two agreed to be partners (as investors) in the house, you should either: get a line of credit on the house to pay her off; or sell the house. If you're the only one on the deed the sales proceeds will go to you. Then you can deduct from her share whatever you believe she & the daughter owe you.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> 1 - Has her renewed face to face contact with her Bestie and Dave and Dave's brother (and anyone else hanging around Dave's house) increased your exposure to Covid 19? *Hard to say. In my province, there is only 9 active cases so we are pretty protected here. That said, I do not know who else those people are hanging with. *
> 
> Does this latest project (event) increase her (and your) exposure to Covid 19? *She is around a lot of people, some from other provinces so in theory, yes. *
> 
> 2 - Are you driving her around again? *I am on occasion. *
> 
> 3 - Are you continuing to subsidize her and/or her daughter? *Nothing has changed as of yet with finances. *
> 
> 4 - I understand she's not on the mortgage - but is she on the deed (or title)? *No. *
> 
> 5 - She's an event planner? Has she been paying her share of the housing expenses during the pandemic? *Events coordinator is one of the hats she wears. She has been paying her share. *
> 
> 6 - Who owns the furniture? *We bought most of it together. *
> 
> 7 - IMO, since you two agreed to be partners (as investors) in the house, you should either: get a line of credit on the house to pay her off; or sell the house. If you're the only one on the deed the sales proceeds will go to you. Then you can deduct from her share whatever you believe she & the daughter owe you. *What do you mean, what they owe ME? My concern is that if I have to sell the house for less than what I bought it for, I would lose out if I just give her the $7K. Also note that a penalty will be assessed if I sell the house within 5 years of buying it. Right now the penalty is about $10K. *


----------



## Livvie

Why would you be assessed a penalty of 10k for selling the house??

If the house is worth less than what it was when you bought it, she just might be out her 7k. She made an investment that didn't pay off. **** happens.

Also, her equity of 7k might be gone after paying realtor fees if you had to sell.

Lastly, the fact that she uttered the phrase "fight for her" should be all you need to hear to be actually disgusted by her.


----------



## wxman3441

Livvie said:


> Why would you be assessed a penalty of 10k for selling the house??
> 
> *The maturity date of the mortgage is 5 years. When I first signed, I did so knowing that we would be assessed a penalty if we sold the house within 5 years of buying it.*
> 
> If the house is worth less than what it was when you bought it, she just might be out her 7k. She made an investment that didn't pay off. **** happens. *Yea that is what I am thinking. *
> 
> Also, her equity of 7k might be gone after paying realtor fees if you had to sell. *True*
> 
> Lastly, the fact that she uttered the phrase "fight for her" should be all you need to hear to be actually disgusted by her. *Why you say that?*


----------



## Livvie

?? You don't find it disgusting that she actually uttered the words that you should "fight for her"??? A woman who is attracted to another man? And she has the balls to say that to you? She must think she is a princess, and she knows you think so too. 

If the shoe were on the other foot and it was you who was involved with someone else, I could see her saying that. But with the situation as it is, it's so much entitlement it's gross. And it's troubling you don't see that on your own.


----------



## Robert22205

NOTE: any loss should be divided equally between you two. 

1 - when is the 5th year on the mortgage coming up?

2- have you disgusted and confirmed the sales value of your house with a realtor?

3 - is my understanding correct that if you sell the house after the 5th year, then there will still be no cash left over for you two to divide?


----------



## wxman3441

Livvie said:


> ?? You don't find it disgusting that she actually uttered the words that you should "fight for her"??? A woman who is attracted to another man? And she has the balls to say that to you? She must think she is a princess, and she knows you think so too.
> 
> *You have a valid point. The tricky part is that she wants me to fight for her daughter too as I have been in her life the past 7 years and trust me, that part is hard. *
> 
> If the shoe were on the other foot and it was you who was involved with someone else, I could see her saying that. But with the situation as it is, it's so much entitlement it's gross. And it's troubling you don't see that on your own. *I agree but I am at a point now where I dont think I can go back even if she tries and makes me feel guilty for it. *


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> NOTE: any loss should be divided equally between you two.
> 
> 1 - when is the 5th year on the mortgage coming up? *3 years from now. *
> 
> 2- have you disgusted and confirmed the sales value of your house with a realtor? *Not yet. *
> 
> 3 - is my understanding correct that if you sell the house after the 5th year, then there will still be no cash left over for you two to divide?* If I sell the house after the 5th year, there will no longer be any penalty. *


----------



## Robert22205

You deserve to be with a partner that makes you feel safe from infidelilty and good about yourself. She had many chances and failed over and over.

IMO, your partner wants freedom to socialize with Dave and her old toxic crowd/cesspool that living with you rescued her from.

And she wants to do it wherever and whenever and as long as she wants without answering to you (or you being present).

*".... I am at a point now where I dont think I can go back even if she tries and makes me feel guilty for it." *

The above sounds like you're ready to exit the relationship.

If that's the case (and IMO it's over due), I suggest: you do it sooner than later (even though Xmas is coming up fast).
Why? because among other things, she is dangerous to your mental health.


----------



## Robert22205

What does she mean 'fight for her daughter too'?

Can you afford the house on your own?


----------



## Openminded

There are women who choose men for what they can do for them — especially if the women have children. Do you feel she’s done that? I ask because it sounds like she constantly pushes you to do stuff financially for her daughter when you aren’t married to her. If you wanted to do whatever it is she keeps asking for that would be one thing but if you don’t then she should have stopped asking long ago. Why is that?


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> You deserve to be with a partner that makes you feel safe from infidelilty and good about yourself. She had many chances and failed over and over.
> 
> IMO, your partner wants freedom to socialize with Dave and her old toxic crowd/cesspool that living with you rescued her from.
> 
> And she wants to do it wherever and whenever and as long as she wants without answering to you (or you being present).
> 
> *".... I am at a point now where I dont think I can go back even if she tries and makes me feel guilty for it." *
> 
> The above sounds like you're ready to exit the relationship.
> 
> If that's the case (and IMO it's over due), I suggest: you do it sooner than later (even though Xmas is coming up fast).
> Why? because among other things, she is dangerous to your mental health. *There is some truth to that. *


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> What does she mean 'fight for her daughter too'?
> 
> *I guess she feels that I should not allow this relationship to end without a fight since I have been a step father figure for her daughter for several years. *
> 
> Can you afford the house on your own? *I can make it work, it would be tough and would have very little left over after bills are paid. I can probably do it for about a year they I would desire to relocate to a city I have had my eye on for a while now. That's assuming the pandemic is in better shape by then.*


----------



## wxman3441

Openminded said:


> There are women who choose men for what they can do for them — especially if the women have children. Do you feel she’s done that? I ask because it sounds like she constantly pushes you to do stuff financially for her daughter when you aren’t married to her. If you wanted to do whatever it is she keeps asking for that would be one thing but if you don’t then she should have stopped asking long ago. Why is that?


*I have had thought this for a long time. My therapist says to not jump to that conclusion. Back when her brother lived with us and was drinking, partying and on drugs, and albeit was struggling with mental illness, she expected me to kick in extra since he wasn't even working. She would not come out directly and say it and but the comment, "If you wanted to do more, you would" came up more than once. 

She claims to not care about money and I don't think she is materialistic as some women. But if this relationship dissolves, she will be losing a reliable source of transportation, a fair bit of financial support for her daughter since we split household bills equally, and a nice stable, family home. She has bad credit and can't get a house on her own so she would have to downgrade to an apartment and her daughter may lose a big, comfy bedroom. *


----------



## Robert22205

*"But if this relationship dissolves, she will be losing a reliable source of transportation, a fair bit of financial support for her daughter since we split household bills equally, and a nice stable, family home. She has bad credit and can't get a house on her own so she would have to downgrade to an apartment and her daughter may lose a big, comfy bedroom."*

The above is sad but it's not your fault. She had plenty of warning and second chances. 

BTW: the daughter has both a father and mother who have primary responsibility. 

The reduction in their quality of life is a consequence of her behavior, attitude, and core values. 

Let her Bestie, Dave and Dave's brother rescue her. They encouraged/contributed to the destruction of your relationship so let them pick up the pieces.

The next time she tries to guilt you just refer her to the Bestie and Dave. Tell her she can spend all the time she wants now as Dave's groupie.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> *"But if this relationship dissolves, she will be losing a reliable source of transportation, a fair bit of financial support for her daughter since we split household bills equally, and a nice stable, family home. She has bad credit and can't get a house on her own so she would have to downgrade to an apartment and her daughter may lose a big, comfy bedroom."*
> 
> The above is sad but it's not your fault. She had plenty of warning and second chances.
> 
> BTW: the daughter has both a father and mother who have primary responsibility. Agreed. *The father (and his family for the most part) are bums. That is also sad but not my fault. I have done a lot for the child over the years but I feel my partner has projected her frustration of the biological father's lack of financial support onto me. *
> 
> The reduction in their quality of life is a consequence of her behavior, attitude, and core values.
> 
> *Sadly she doesnt see it that way but her desire for Dave last summer is something is always going to rear its head. *
> 
> Let her Bestie, Dave and Dave's brother rescue her. They encouraged/contributed to the destruction of your relationship so let them pick up the pieces.
> 
> The next time she tries to guilt you just refer her to the Bestie and Dave. Tell her she can spend all the time she wants now as Dave's groupie. *She will say how Dave is happy in a new relationship now .*


----------



## Livvie

So what's the bottom line? Are you going to stay in this relationship or are you going to terminate it?


----------



## Openminded

wxman3441 said:


> *I have had thought this for a long time. My therapist says to not jump to that conclusion. Back when her brother lived with us and was drinking, partying and on drugs, and albeit was struggling with mental illness, she expected me to kick in extra since he wasn't even working. She would not come out directly and say it and but the comment, "If you wanted to do more, you would" came up more than once.
> 
> She claims to not care about money and I don't think she is materialistic as some women. But if this relationship dissolves, she will be losing a reliable source of transportation, a fair bit of financial support for her daughter since we split household bills equally, and a nice stable, family home. She has bad credit and can't get a house on her own so she would have to downgrade to an apartment and her daughter may lose a big, comfy bedroom. *


I’m going to disagree with your therapist about not jumping to that conclusion. I think she wanted someone to help her and her daughter and you fit the bill. At some point she’s likely going to realize what she’s losing and rethink that. Unless she thinks maybe she can manipulate Dave into a relationship and then he can help with her daughter.


----------



## wxman3441

Livvie said:


> So what's the bottom line? Are you going to stay in this relationship or are you going to terminate it?


*As of now it is over. I told I would only consider reconciling if she goes to counseling but as of now she wont. *


----------



## wxman3441

Openminded said:


> I’m going to disagree with your therapist about not jumping to that conclusion. I think she wanted someone to help her and her daughter and you fit the bill. At some point she’s likely going to realize what she’s losing and rethink that. Unless she thinks maybe she can manipulate Dave into a relationship and then he can help with her daughter.


*Dave already has 2 daughter and my partner's daughter does not get along with them. Dave has had a GF for 6 months now. I guess that isnt a factor?*


----------



## Livvie

It's not a factor. 

What's a factor is you ex girlfriend's character. 

Go find yourself a partner with better character.


----------



## Openminded

wxman3441 said:


> *Dave has had a GF for 6 months now. I guess that isnt a factor?*


Maybe not to your gf. She may feel she can cut Dave’s gf out. Or maybe she’ll be content to just hang around him, hoping.


----------



## Robert22205

From your posts I recall Dave has plenty of women to chose from. Some steady and some on/off. An earlier post months ago mentioned a friend of your wife visiting (and sexing with Dave like the women thought he was a local celebrity).

Your partner was a fool to get involved with him and a bigger fool for not reconciling when you gave her the chance.

Best of all is when you move to another city - it's a complete do over for you. Smart move.

BTW: you may have to help your partner out with a security deposit - but it's worth it to get rid of them. And you can deduct it from her share after you sell the house.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> From your posts I recall Dave has plenty of women to chose from. Some steady and some on/off. An earlier post months ago mentioned a friend of your wife visiting (and sexing with Dave like the women thought he was a local celebrity).
> 
> *Yes her “sister” (Dads wife’s daughter) went to see Dave during the pandemic and likely slept with him. My partner wasn’t thrilled about it.*
> 
> Your partner was a fool to get involved with him and a bigger fool for not reconciling when you gave her the chance.
> 
> *I’m not really sure what she saw in him. I guess he is a better conversationalist than me. Yes once I said NC has to happen (Oct of last year) she became very depressed. I though it was because she missed her bestie but of course I found out a few weeks ago that the NC broke her heart and crushed her soul. I gave in and she hung out with them all shortly after Christmas last year. That was the night she stayed out till 6am and I laid into her when she got home. *
> 
> Best of all is when you move to another city - it's a complete do over for you.
> Smart move.
> 
> *Yea I have had my eyes on this city for a while. Only really have been staying behind for and the kid.*
> 
> BTW: you may have to help your partner out with a security deposit - but it's worth it to get rid of them. And you can deduct it from her share after you sell the house.
> 
> *I’ve been thinking about just giving her the $7K an being done with it. Hope to talk to a lawyer this week. *


----------



## manfromlamancha

I don't buy into this "better conversationalist" [email protected] You sound like a pretty good conversationalist to me. He might be a super bullsh!tter more like. And your wife is just lusting after him and buying into his bullsh!t.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Openminded said:


> Maybe not to your gf. She may feel she can cut Dave’s gf out. Or maybe she’ll be content to just hang around him, hoping.


Dave may be type to hit some on the side even having a GF.


----------



## Divinely Favored

She was clearly jealous of sister snagging the guy she had her eye on.


----------



## wxman3441

Divinely Favored said:


> She was clearly jealous of sister snagging the guy she had her eye on.
> 
> *I saw a lot of stuff in her phone and I recall her saying something along the lines of "of all the guys out there, why him?"*


----------



## Robert22205

Does the daughter know that you're breaking up - and she's moving soon?


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Does the daughter know that you're breaking up - and she's moving soon?


*Yes she knows. I am pretty sure she knows that her time in that house may be ending. The pandemic is hitting hard again, I think she wants to stay until things improve.

Talked to a lawyer today. Sounds like I will need to get the house appraised by a realtor then determine how much she should get after that. The lawyer said try and be civil because she has seen cases like this where the woman tried to go after the guy for part of his retirement and child support even though I am not the father. I dont think she would do that but I still need to protect myself.*


----------



## Livvie

Um, doesn't the teen already HAVE a father? You can't obligate two men to pay child support. And, you aren't married, right? I think it's really odd the attorney told you that. I've never heard anything so ridiculous.


----------



## manfromlamancha

I agree with Livvie but in a world where litigation is as "advanced" as it is like the USA, anything is possible I suppose.


----------



## Robert22205

IMO, under the circumstances trying to be civil goes without saying. 

Why bring up an appraisal if she just wants her $7,000 back? If she thinks she'll get more money by waiting until the penalty period ends, then you'll have a roommate for another 2 years.

IMO, a strong motive for her to buy a house and live with you was economic (including a safe home and stable family unit). She going to be reluctant to loose all that (even though she sabotaged herself over Dave). 

Two thoughts about her reason for delaying the move:
1 - you said the pandemic is almost a non issue in your community?
2 - will she get an apartment (with her bad credit) or share someone's house?
3 - covid19 risk can be managed during the move much more effectively than your wife's role planning & supervising large gatherings ('spreader' events).

Finally, is there an understanding that until she actually moves neither will have any dates visit the house?


----------



## Robert22205

Is your partner's girlfriend (or any of Dave's previous GFs) that had sex with Dave more or less attractive than your partner?

I ask because Dave seems to be successful, owns a big house, and has a steady supply of sex partners.

In your opinion, what are her chances of having a long term relationship with Dave?


----------



## Openminded

manfromlamancha said:


> I agree with Livvie but in a world where litigation is as "advanced" as it is like the USA, anything is possible I suppose.


True — but hopefully Canada is different.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Openminded said:


> True — but hopefully Canada is different.


Really? What about Alaska and Hawaii? Lol, just kidding. Forgot that OP is from Canada.


----------



## wxman3441

Livvie said:


> Um, doesn't the teen already HAVE a father? You can't obligate two men to pay child support. And, you aren't married, right? I think it's really odd the attorney told you that. I've never heard anything so ridiculous.


*She does have a father but he is a deadbeat. That said, I beleive in the divorce decree, it mentions he has to provide 50% support even though he doesn't do it. I am not sure two different men can be court ordered to pay CS. *


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> IMO, under the circumstances trying to be civil goes without saying.
> 
> Why bring up an appraisal if she just wants her $7,000 back? If she thinks she'll get more money by waiting until the penalty period ends, then you'll have a roommate for another 2 years.
> 
> *Im not sure she will want to live with me for another 2 years because she will want to start dating. Hard to say. *
> 
> IMO, a strong motive for her to buy a house and live with you was economic (including a safe home and stable family unit). She going to be reluctant to loose all that (even though she sabotaged herself over Dave).* I have always thought that. *
> 
> Two thoughts about her reason for delaying the move:
> 1 - you said the pandemic is almost a non issue in your community? *It was but there have been a lot of new cases recently. *
> 2 - will she get an apartment (with her bad credit) or share someone's house?* I would say an apartment. *
> 3 - covid19 risk can be managed during the move much more effectively than your wife's role planning & supervising large gatherings ('spreader' events).
> 
> Finally, is there an understanding that until she actually moves neither will have any dates visit the house? *We havent talked about that but I dont think either of us will go that route. *


----------



## Livvie

wxman3441 said:


> *She does have a father but he is a deadbeat. That said, I beleive in the divorce decree, it mentions he has to provide 50% support even though he doesn't do it. I am not sure two different men can be court ordered to pay CS. *


They can't! 

There is no legal standing to start any action to obligate you to pay support.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Is your partner's girlfriend (or any of Dave's previous GFs) that had sex with Dave more or less attractive than your partner? *Dave's last GF was someone I didn't find that attractive. My partner's sister who likely banged him, is pretty cute though. Apparently a lot of girls like him even though he is a bald head bug eyed dork so who knows. *
> 
> I ask because Dave seems to be successful, owns a big house, and has a steady supply of sex partners. *Dave has his own business but I am not sure how much he earns. He actually doesnt own the big house he lives in. He is renting it with his brother. Between the 2 of them, they have 3 kids that live there too. *
> 
> In your opinion, what are her chances of having a long term relationship with Dave? *I wouldn't say anytime soon. Like I said, Dave has a GF now, not sure how serious it is. My partner, or now ex, was out all night recently but apparently it was with another friend not related to Dave's crew. They are holding a baby shower for a friend this weekend at Dave's house. Not sure if Dave would be there because what man attends a baby shower? lol. If Dave and his new GF do not work out, I would say its a possibility they could finally get together. *


----------



## Robert22205

In your partner's words (her view point) why did you guys break up?

Was the 'friend' she was out late with another man?

Since she has no license, who's driving her around every day - if you're not?


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> In your partner's words (her view point) why did you guys break up? *I think the posts she found out on FB were the final straw for her. She felt like I was the only person who didn’t see the good side of her which everyone else did. Not true though. *
> 
> Was the 'friend' she was out late with another man? *No a woman she works with. *
> 
> Since she has no license, who's driving her around every day - if you're not? *Usually cabs. *


----------



## Robert22205

*So she broke up with you? It wasn't mutual?
I thought she asked you to come back home? *


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> *So she broke up with you? It wasn't mutual?
> I thought she asked you to come back home? *


*Technically she did. She was the one who said it was over. She was expected me to "fight for her" and I guess ask for forgiveness but that never happened. 

She did. I left the day of the fight involving the Facebook posts and slept out two nights in a row but have been back in the house since. *


----------



## Openminded

So she’s staying until things improve where you are — whatever that might mean. Maybe she’s not thrilled about having to find another place to live. She may be waking up to reality and want to “fix things” soon.


----------



## wxman3441

Openminded said:


> So she’s staying until things improve where you are — whatever that might mean. Maybe she’s not thrilled about having to find another place to live. She may be waking up to reality and want to “fix things” soon.


*Maybe. I am pretty sure she is not thrilled about relocating and doesn't seem to be in a hurry to leave. Her life will be downgraded for sure as in:

1. An apartment versus a nice house
2. Less financial support including less support for her daughter.
3. No more free car rides for her and her daughter.
4. Less cleaning around the house (I do the majority).
5. She will have to cook more (I cook at least 60% of the time).
6. It opens the door for her deadbeat siblings to move in when things get tough and she will end up partially supporting them. She knows I wasn't going to allow that to happen anymore. *


----------



## Livvie

Sounds like this relationship doesn't enhance YOUR life, and that terminating it will be only a benefit to you. I thought you were done with the relationship?


----------



## wxman3441

Livvie said:


> Sounds like this relationship doesn't enhance YOUR life, and that terminating it will be only a benefit to you. I thought you were done with the relationship?


*Yes she has more to lose than me. I am done. We are split up but have the logistics of owning a house together to deal with. She is staying through Christmas then is supposed to be moving out shortly after. *


----------



## Evinrude58

wxman3441 said:


> *Yes she has more to lose than me. I am done. We are split up but have the logistics of owning a house together to deal with. She is staying through Christmas then is supposed to be moving out shortly after. *


Technically, you’re not split up. I predict it will be difficult to fully extricate thus person


----------



## Openminded

Don’t be surprised if she finds a “reason” not to move out after Christmas.


----------



## Robert22205

1 - Why did she ask you to return?

2 - Does your partner understand that you're done and that there's nothing she can say or do (including years of therapy) to change it?

3 - What is her incentive to move anytime soon? 
Isn't it to her advantage to delay as long as possible? 

From your posts about her family and friends IMO she's probably more comfortable than you in an ongoing toxic relationship, including poor/undefined boundaries (i.e., that's her 'normal'). 

Therefore, you may have to motivate her somehow (e.g., a partial cash payment now and more later upon sale of the house) with an offer that expires.


----------



## jlg07

So, see a lawyer, get the house stuff figured out, and then SET A DATE for her to get out (or for you both to get out and sell the house). This will linger forever otherwise


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> 1 - Why did she ask you to return?
> 
> *I guess she wanted to talk about things and wasn’t expecting me to stay in a hotel forever. *
> 
> 2 - Does your partner understand that you're done and that there's nothing she can say or do (including years of therapy) to change it?
> 
> *I think so. I had mentioned that I was open to professional therapy as a last resort but I am pretty sure she won’t do it and I don’t even know if I want to do it anymore. *
> 
> 3 - What is her incentive to move anytime soon?
> Isn't it to her advantage to delay as long as possible?
> 
> *I would say, it’s definitely cheaper for her. Might make sense to just give her the $7K so she can fall back on that. *
> 
> From your posts about her family and friends IMO she's probably more comfortable than you in an ongoing toxic relationship, including poor/undefined boundaries (i.e., that's her 'normal').
> 
> *Her family, while they have always been good to me, are pretty dysfunctional. However my ex will always rush to their aid, if it isn’t in her best interest or our relationship.
> 
> 
> Therefore, you may have to motivate her somehow (e.g., a partial cash payment now and more later upon sale of the house) with an offer that expires.
> 
> agreed
> *


*
*


----------



## wxman3441

She has been pretty emotional the past couple days and it’s allowing me to feel sad for myself but mostly for her. Thing is, I am not completely sure she is sad about our relationship dissolving but more about the fact that she will have to go to a reduced lifestyle as I indicated above.

I am pretty sure she is not involved with Dave in anyway. She mostly has been staying home. Maybe she is sad about that as well - that her window for getting with Dave has closed since he is with someone else now.

She is going out of town for the weekend and made a point to tell me this morning to not bring anyone over the house while she is gone. I’m not seeing anyone else right now. Kind of funny because her and her daughter have friends over the house all the time; some are people I do not know very well.


----------



## Robert22205

Why did she say that? Is she concerned about you having a woman over?


----------



## Openminded

Of course she’s sad. She didn’t mean it. It was only a threat to get you back in place and she can’t believe it didn’t work. She’s not done yet.


----------



## Robert22205

What exactly did you post about her that motivated her to break up with you??


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> What exactly did you post about her that motivated her to break up with you??


I think I had mentioned that I had concerns that I was being taken advantage of, I.e. always supplying transportation and helping to support her daughter but not always getting respect and thanks for it. I asked people what level of support I should be providing for the child and mentioned that I was interested in buying things like iPhones etc. I mentioned the stuff about Dave last summer and the fact that I was concerned when she was recording music with our next door neighbour (a guy her age) in his basement. I may have mentioned that I didn’t like being micromanaged by her and her daughter when I cook supper, I.e. complaints about too many vegetables, overcooking, too much spice etc.


----------



## Livvie

Well, this will all soon be behind you and you can look forward to being on your own a bit then someday finding a more mutual relationship, and also one with no other men involved!


----------



## Evinrude58

She’s not going anywhere. This leech will suck the life from you for years to come. Jouyy


----------



## Robert22205

She sounds very dysfunctional as a life partner.

Nothing in your 'complaints' was news to her and nothing was embarrassing enough to justify a break up. 

IMO she was angry at herself because she knows she has poor boundaries with other men; and she knows she & the daughter take advantage of you and have a lot to loose if you break up.

But rather than holding herself accountable/changing her behavior she transfers her anger towards you.

You can't save her from herself and you two aren't on the same page in life.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Why did she say that? Is she concerned about you having a woman over?


*Not sure why but I guess she may be worried about that. *


----------



## wxman3441

Evinrude58 said:


> She’s not going anywhere. This leech will suck the life from you for years to come. Jouyy


*Why do you say that?*


----------



## Evinrude58

She’s still there with you and has no feelings for you. You have no definite timetable for extracting yourself from the relationship, and admit you still love her. You don’t want her to go. I completely understand, because I have been. Through what you are now experiencing. It was the most difficult thing ever to tell my ex to leave, and I basically only had the strength because once I found her cheating, she wouldn’t stop and forced my hand. She wanted to go anyway. Still it was hugely painful. 
she would have been glad to stay longer, however, because of the security, and benefits I provided——until she found a replacement.
Your wife will stay until she uses you as much as possible while she searches for a replacement. You’ll think she’s trying to reconcile and you’ll let her stay. 

advice is to make things for her as uncomfortable as possible and save up for a place if your own, and forget trying to reconcile with a woman who doesn’t live you, even though that’s what you really want.
Don’t let her keep you in the hook while she looks for an easy monkey branch to another guy.


----------



## Livvie

Evinrude58 said:


> She’s still there with you and has no feelings for you. You have no definite timetable for extracting yourself from the relationship, and admit you still love her. You don’t want her to go. I completely understand, because I have been. Through what you are now experiencing. It was the most difficult thing ever to tell my ex to leave, and I basically only had the strength because once I found her cheating, she wouldn’t stop and forced my hand. She wanted to go anyway. Still it was hugely painful.
> she would have been glad to stay longer, however, because of the security, and benefits I provided——until she found a replacement.
> Your wife will stay until she uses you as much as possible while she searches for a replacement. You’ll think she’s trying to reconcile and you’ll let her stay.
> 
> advice is to make things for her as uncomfortable as possible and save up for a place if your own, and forget trying to reconcile with a woman who doesn’t live you, even though that’s what you really want.
> Don’t let her keep you in the hook while she looks for an easy monkey branch to another guy.


The thing is, this isn't even a wife!!! It's a girlfriend!


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> She sounds very dysfunctional as a life partner.
> 
> Nothing in your 'complaints' was news to her and nothing was embarrassing enough to justify a break up.
> 
> *Yea I suppose. She was really hurt by it though. *
> 
> IMO she was angry at herself because she knows she has poor boundaries with other men; and she knows she & the daughter take advantage of you and have a lot to loose if you break up.
> 
> I do think she realizes she will lose a lot without me in her life. You can definitely argue that I was being taken advantage of, earlier on when we were living together.
> 
> But rather than holding herself accountable/changing her behavior she transfers her anger towards you.
> 
> You can't save her from herself and you two aren't on the same page in life.





Evinrude58 said:


> She’s still there with you and has no feelings for you. You have no definite timetable for extracting yourself from the relationship, and admit you still love her. You don’t want her to go. I completely understand, because I have been. Through what you are now experiencing. It was the most difficult thing ever to tell my ex to leave, and I basically only had the strength because once I found her cheating, she wouldn’t stop and forced my hand. She wanted to go anyway. Still it was hugely painful.
> she would have been glad to stay longer, however, because of the security, and benefits I provided——until she found a replacement.
> Your wife will stay until she uses you as much as possible while she searches for a replacement. You’ll think she’s trying to reconcile and you’ll let her stay.
> 
> advice is to make things for her as uncomfortable as possible and save up for a place if your own, and forget trying to reconcile with a woman who doesn’t live you, even though that’s what you really want.
> Don’t let her keep you in the hook while she looks for an easy monkey branch to another guy.


*You make good points. I don't know if I would say she has no feelings left for me but I suppose you can question if she still loves me.

She is going out of town this weekend and before she left, she mentioned that she wants to talk again next week. In addition, she suggested seeing a counselor, in her words, mainly to deal with the pain and sadness she is feeling with us still living in the same house and me being a bit distant to her.

From what I gathered, it seems she still may want to work it out. What I am struggling with is asking myself the question: Does she want to work it out because she truly loves me and values our relationship or is it because I provide stability for her and her daughter and it some ways, her family?

My gut feeling is that it is more of the latter. But then again, does it make sense for someone to stick around just for the security? She knows if she desires Dave again or someone else, I would keep a close eye on her so it would be hard for her to be unfaithful again. She makes decent money, has a good career and side gig as a musician and artist. She is a successful and well respected person in the community in many ways. In theory, there is no reason, she could not make it on her own. However, she does not drive and has no desire to. While her daughter is a relatively good kid, she is very demanding and spoiled and is very expensive. And she has a needy family with mental health and addictions issues and they lean on her a lot for emotional support and I would guess, occasional financial support. And her ex husband is a dead beat with anger issues. 

At this point, I don't see how I can go back. Too much damage has been done. I am frustrated with things to the point that I will lash out when I see her daughter's dirty clothes all over the floor and dishes piled in the sink. I would not completely rule out the chance that a family member will try and move in with us again. Plus, with a lot of uncertainty in my professional career, I am looking to relocate sooner than later and I know that is not ideal for her. Most importantly, can I really go back to someone and put a lot of effort in to make it work, who spent most of last summer, having feelings for the another man, hiding that from me for months then admitting to a friend just a few months ago that "it broke her heart and crushed her soul" when she told him she couldn't see him anymore because I found out? Note: I found the last part out be secretly recording her so I can't tell her that. *


----------



## Openminded

I say it’s Option B why she wants to stay. She might be able to do all the things you mentioned but it’s easier for her to let you do them for her. So it’s no surprise she’s putting out feelers about staying. She didn’t intend that you would take her up on leaving. That threat was meant to get you back in line. It didn’t work so now she’s going to be sad and sorry about it all.


----------



## Openminded

And, yes, many women do stay for stability and not because they love the man they’re with.


----------



## Evinrude58

wxman3441 said:


> *You make good points. I don't know if I would say she has no feelings left for me but I suppose you can question if she still loves me.*
> 
> She is going out of town this weekend
> 
> actions, ignore “talk”, look at her actions. Going out of town? Not to see you, brother.
> 
> 
> *and before she left, she mentioned that she wants to talk again next week. In addition, she suggested seeing a counselor, in her words, *mainly to deal with the pain and sadness she is feeling with us still living in the same house
> 
> _*So here, she is TELLING you that she doesn’t want to “talk” about reconciling, just to get you in line with her dating other men and contributing to parenting her kid and paying bills while she does so. Wake up!*_
> 
> *and me being a bit distant to her.*
> 
> *From what I gathered, it seems she still may want to work it out**.
> 
> Gotta 2x4 you here. There is nothing you have said that should cause you to get this idea. Nothing.
> 
> What I am struggling with is asking myself the question: Does she want to work it out because she truly loves me and values our relationship or is it because I provide stability for her and her daughter and it some ways, her family?*
> 
> *No need to struggle, this is EXACTLY correct. I’m very sorry, you are only there to be used at this point. Boot her. You can do better.*
> 
> 
> *My gut feeling is that it is more of the latter. But then again, does it make sense for someone to stick around just for the security? She knows if she desires Dave again or someone else, I would keep a close eye on her so it would be hard for her to be unfaithful again. She makes decent money, has a good career and side gig as a musician and artist. She is a successful and well respected person in the community in many ways. In theory, there is no reason, she could not make it on her own. However, she does not drive and has no desire to. While her daughter is a relatively good kid, she is very demanding and spoiled and is very expensive. And she has a needy family with mental health and addictions issues and they lean on her a lot for emotional support and I would guess, occasional financial support. And her ex husband is a dead beat with anger issues.
> 
> At this point, I don't see how I can go back. Too much damage has been done. I am frustrated with things to the point that I will lash out when I see her daughter's dirty clothes all over the floor and dishes piled in the sink. I would not completely rule out the chance that a family member will try and move in with us again. Plus, with a lot of uncertainty in my professional career, I am looking to relocate sooner than later and I know that is not ideal for her. Most importantly, can I really go back to someone and put a lot of effort in to make it work, who spent most of last summer, having feelings for the another man, hiding that from me for months then admitting to a friend just a few months ago that "it broke her heart and crushed her soul" when she told him she couldn't see him anymore because I found out? Note: I found the last part out be secretly recording her so I can't tell her that. *


----------



## Evinrude58

Realize you are considering staying with a woman who referred to not talking to another man as breaking her heart and crushing her soul.

Do you see this? There’s nothing to fix, nothing to work with, a nuclear blast of Dave bomb has vaporized ANY feelings she has for you. You can’t see it, because you are grieving her. You still love her. It’s understandable, but you are letting your love cause you massive unnecessary pain.

I wish I could help you see that.


----------



## wxman3441

Evinrude58 said:


> Realize you are considering staying with a woman who referred to not talking to another man as breaking her heart and crushing her soul.
> 
> Do you see this? There’s nothing to fix, nothing to work with, a nuclear blast of Dave bomb has vaporized ANY feelings she has for you. You can’t see it, because you are grieving her. You still love her. It’s understandable, but you are letting your love cause you massive unnecessary pain.
> 
> I wish I could help you see that.


*No trust me, I clearly to do see that part. What happened with Dave is hard to forgive, even if they were never physical. I have a feeling that all of this happened last year when Dave was single, she may be with him now. *


----------



## Robert22205

* .... she may be with him now. *

Where did she go this weekend? Is she with Dave over the week end?


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Livvie said:


> They can't!
> 
> There is no legal standing to start any action to obligate you to pay support.


There is, actually. Look up the concept of 'in loco parentis' in your jurisdiction. That's what it's called when a former stepparent is required to provide child support, perhaps in addition to that provided by the biological parent, based on taking on a parental role.


----------



## Livvie

Hopeful Cynic said:


> There is, actually. Look up the concept of 'in loco parentis' in your jurisdiction. That's what it's called when a former stepparent is required to provide child support, perhaps in addition to that provided by the biological parent, based on taking on a parental role.


Negative.

Per OP, bio dad is in the picture. This isn't a child he has raised as his own and just never formally adopted. There is a bio dad.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> * .... she may be with him now. *
> 
> Where did she go this weekend? Is she with Dave over the week end?


*No, she belongs to a drum group and she went on a song writing retreat with several other women.*


----------



## wxman3441

Livvie said:


> Negative.
> 
> Per OP, bio dad is in the picture. This isn't a child he has raised as his own and just never formally adopted. There is a bio dad.


*Yes, the bio dad literally lives in walking distance from us. He is in her life for sure. He just doesn't pay the support he is legally required to. *


----------



## syhoybenden

wxman3441 said:


> *No, she belongs to a drum group and she went on a song writing retreat with several other women.*


My first reaction: Suuuuuuuuurrrre she did. Is this what she told you?

Verify. And don't take anyone at their word. Talk is cheap. Words are nothing.


----------



## wxman3441

syhoybenden said:


> My first reaction: Suuuuuuuuurrrre she did. Is this what she told you?
> 
> Verify. And don't take anyone at their word. Talk is cheap. Words are nothing.


*No, to be fair she is. Her daughter went with her and she has posted pictures. That is not to say she has done other stuff without my knowledge but I am nearly certain she is not with another man this weekend. Now, last weekend for instance, they held a baby shower at Dave's house. I know men usually dont attend those things but who knows for sure. 

I don't think she is seeing another man right now. She has been home a lot. Her window in getting with Dave might have closed since he is involved with someone else now. *


----------



## Livvie

Baby showers inside a home, a drummer retreat with other women. Do you live in a part of the world there is no covid? 🤔


----------



## wxman3441

Livvie said:


> Baby showers inside a home, a drummer retreat with other women. Do you live in a part of the world there is no covid? 🤔


I live in Newfoundland, Canada. Fortunately we are pretty isolated here. There is about 30 active cases in the province.


----------



## Livvie

wxman3441 said:


> I live in Newfoundland, Canada. Fortunately we are pretty isolated here. There is about 30 active cases in the province.


That's amazing! You are fortunate.


----------



## Evinrude58

Best thing is to stop caring about what she is doing and get out of the relationship and get her and her daughter out of the house. If she can make it on her own, she soon will be. It’s easier to chase men when one doesn’t live with their ex. I hope she leaves soon. It will hurt you, but also remove the “hopium” as another poster here accurately calls it—— and force you to move on and you’ll be happier eventually. 

This person will steal your happiness as long as she is around.


----------



## Robert22205

Do not allow yourself to be manipulated into feeling guilty for the break up. 

Your partner may be respected in the community and thought of as ‘nice’ or generous to others – but in the context of your relationship she is selfish and lacks empathy for your pain. 

Allowing Dave into her heart last summer (and allowing him to stay in her heart) was/is a selfish act by your partner. And totally within her control to stop. 

IMO, when you talk to her this weekend (or anyone else) about the break up you should limit the reason to her continuing obsession with Dave. Don’t mention the money or you carrying more of a domestic load (because it’s a quick fix and you could of spoken up sooner). 

Dave on the other hand, is a deal breaker and one year later is still not fixed. 

I also think you should withdraw your suggestion for couples counseling. Her obsession with Dave is her problem (not a couple’s issue).


----------



## Robert22205

You don’t have to admit you know that she said: limited contact with Dave crushed her soul. 

After all that she’s done and said about Dave it’s reasonable for you to assume it.

Therefore, feel free to use the word/phrase 'soulmate' and 'crushed your soul'.

If she wants to discuss the relationship or asks for another chance, consider replying something like this (either verbally or in writing or both):

Since last summer when I discovered your attraction to Dave, I’ve been disappointed, angry and literally cried over us – but now I am just numb and want to move on. 

I want to separate as civilly and quickly as possible.

It’s clear to me now that you elevated Dave to a special place in your heart that I can’t compete with.

Unfortunately, for ‘us” I can’t be happy being in second place to another man; nor can I be happy knowing that your core happiness depends on contact with another man. 

And it’s also clear to me that limiting contact with Dave crushes your soul - and you resent me for it. 

After giving you a year to show me otherwise, I’m not the guy for you. You need to move in with Dave (or find someone like him). And I need to find someone that’s happy with just me.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Do not allow yourself to be manipulated into feeling guilty for the break up.
> 
> *Good point, I am struggling with that because she may struggle on her own. She is poor with money and lives a busy lifestyle so chores around her new apt wont get done. Plus, she wont have transportation anymore. *
> 
> Your partner may be respected in the community and thought of as ‘nice’ or generous to others – but in the context of your relationship she is selfish and lacks empathy for your pain.
> 
> Allowing Dave into her heart last summer (and allowing him to stay in her heart) was/is a selfish act by your partner. And totally within her control to stop.
> 
> *I can't disagree there. That is solely on her. And even if Dave is not a factor anymore, it leads me to believe that someone else will be. *
> 
> IMO, when you talk to her this weekend (or anyone else) about the break up you should limit the reason to her continuing obsession with Dave. Don’t mention the money or you carrying more of a domestic load (because it’s a quick fix and you could of spoken up sooner).
> 
> Dave on the other hand, is a deal breaker and one year later is still not fixed.
> 
> I also think you should withdraw your suggestion for couples counseling. Her obsession with Dave is her problem (not a couple’s issue).


*Do you think, based on what I have said, that she is still obsessed with him? She did mention that her heart broke over him to a friend when they stopped talking a year ago. *


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> You don’t have to admit you know that she said: limited contact with Dave crushed her soul.
> 
> *If I tell her I know this, she will know I secretly recorded her and that may cause a ****storm. *
> 
> After all that she’s done and said about Dave it’s reasonable for you to assume it.
> 
> *True. *
> 
> Therefore, feel free to use the word/phrase 'soulmate' and 'crushed your soul'.
> 
> If she wants to discuss the relationship or asks for another chance, consider replying something like this (either verbally or in writing or both):
> 
> Since last summer when I discovered your attraction to Dave, I’ve been disappointed, angry and literally cried over us – but now I am just numb and want to move on.
> 
> *Understandable. *
> 
> I want to separate as civilly and quickly as possible.
> 
> It’s clear to me now that you elevated Dave to a special place in your heart that I can’t compete with.
> 
> *Yes, he gives her something I can't give. They apparently had great, deep conversations and being reserved and introverted by nature, I do not think I could give her the same. *
> 
> Unfortunately, for ‘us” I can’t be happy being in second place to another man; nor can I be happy knowing that your core happiness depends on contact with another man.
> 
> *True. *
> 
> And it’s also clear to me that limiting contact with Dave crushes your soul - and you resent me for it.
> 
> *Should I use that term? *
> 
> After giving you a year to show me otherwise, I’m not the guy for you. You need to move in with Dave (or find someone like him). And I need to find someone that’s happy with just me.
> 
> *Yea I can't dispute that. She will say that she is over Dave and he has someone else but he may always be in the picture in some capacity. *


----------



## Robert22205

Yes use the phrase NC crushes her soul - but use it in a sentence that justifies why you assume it. 

For example,

It's clear from your behavior last summer, your comments about how Dave gives you something I can't, and you recently running back to Dave that you're not over him - and therefore, NC must have crushed your soul. 

She needs to find a man that makes her feel like Dave. It's not appropriate for her to have both of you nor is it fair to you.


----------



## Robert22205

Human beings are wired to bond emotionally and physically with others. That's why we use boundaries (to keep temptation at arms length).

Every spouse of partner has a right to feel safe from infidelity. That includes avoiding suspicious or suggestive relationships and certain activities. She failed big time last summer.

AND THE PASSAGE OF TIME DOESN"T FIX ANYTHING - ESPECIALLY WHEN SHE"S STILL IN HIS WORLD.

She gets regular updates via her Bestie so she's still connected to Dave. And if her daughter is still friends with his daughter then that's another connection. 

Relationships survive because both make trade offs in their behaviors to protect the relationship and preemptively avoid situations that 'may' lead to forming emotional connections with OM (emotions she says that you can't provide her). 

IMO, from your posts she becomes attracted to and seeks to spend time with guys that give her some sort of special feeling. Maybe it feeds what she thinks is her creative musical or artistic side. 

IMO, it violates boundaries that places her at risk to bond or connect with another man - and therefore puts your relationship at high risk. Certainly makes you feel unsafe. For example, regularly writing music alone with a guy in his basement (probably harmless in the short term - but it's evidence that she still hasn't learned to protect the relationship). 

It's not up to you to suck it up or assume she's over Dave. It's up to her. That obligation didn't fade or go away over time.

For example, after almost losing you last summer over Dave, she should shake and vomit at the mention of his name. If she speaks of him at all, it should be about his negative qualities. And she should never have anything good to say about him.

It's not up to you to trust her with Dave. It's 100% up to her to remove any doubt.


----------



## Robert22205

It doesn't matter what she says about Dave.
The fact that he has a GF is irrelevant. He's goes through 2-3 per year.

People are judged by their actions.

Her actions (including what she's not doing) show she’s not over Dave. 

1 – After almost losing you last summer, just the mention of his name should make a safe partner vomit. By now, a safe partner would be hyper aware of his negative attributes not how special he makes her feel.

2 - IMO your FB posts were petty silly stuff. Stuff to get angry about (sure) - but not break up over. Nothing you posted on FB was any different than what guys & women talk about over a beer (and she knows it).

3 - Given her resentment over NC with Dave, it looks like she engineered a break up to give herself an excuse to run back to Dave's house.

4 - Given all the drama and almost losing you last summer, going to Dave's house is the last place she should have gone under any circumstances (even if Dave has a girl friend living there).

5 - Last but not least - going to Dave's house was an incredibly personal and ****ty thing for her to do to you. You don't do that to someone you love (even when angry). You don't do that to someone that you're trying to regain their trust with. Reason enough to dump her.

Finally, she can argue that she could do anything she wants because she 'broke up' with you. True.

However, it's reasonable for you to use her behavior during the break up (going to Dave's house) as evidence that she's not over him.

And it's also evidence that as 'nice' as she is to others - she's not respectful or nice to you. She knew going to Dave’s house would break your heart – and she did it anyway. Reason enough to dump her.


----------



## Robert22205

One last piece of advice. 

If you've decided it's over, all that is required is for you to be proactive and inform her of your decision. 

As a courtesy, you can provide the reason why (i.e., it's Dave).

You do not have to convince her that you're correct - or that she did anything wrong. 

Why? First, because she'll never agree with you; and second, at this point it only matters what you think/feel. It's 100% your decision to make (based on everything she's said (not said), done (not done) since last summer. 

It's not just one single thing but an accumulation of everything (including kicking you in the balls by first creating fake drama so she could run back to Dave's house).

Your reasoning for your decision is not up for her to debate or argue about. You didn't ambush her.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Yes use the phrase NC crushes her soul - but use it in a sentence that justifies why you assume it.
> 
> For example,
> 
> It's clear from your behavior last summer, your comments about how Dave gives you something I can't, and you recently running back to Dave that you're not over him - and therefore, NC must have crushed your soul.
> 
> She needs to find a man that makes her feel like Dave. It's not appropriate for her to have both of you nor is it fair to you.


*Yes and if its not Dave it'll be someone like him. This new guy will have to step in and be a full time father and be ready to possibly support other family members so its a tall order. *


----------



## Evinrude58

wxman3441 said:


> *Yes and if its not Dave it'll be someone like him. This new guy will have to step in and be a full time father and be ready to possibly support other family members so its a tall order. *


Hence, the reason for my belief that thus infected tooth will require a difficult extraction.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Human beings are wired to bond emotionally and physically with others. That's why we use boundaries (to keep temptation at arms length).
> 
> Every spouse of partner has a right to feel safe from infidelity. That includes avoiding suspicious or suggestive relationships and certain activities. She failed big time last summer.
> *
> Yes. And by the way during that conversation I heard when she admitted "her heart was broken and soul crushed", she mentioned to her friend that she has had crushes in the past. In her words, some serious crushes. Not sure if this is while she was with me or not. If so, I really can't justify that either. Finding other people attractive while in a relationship is one thing but crushing on multiple people in a LTR just isn't right to me.
> 
> She also told a story where when she was in another province on a project, she met up with a male friend and they had a lot of drinks. When they got back to the outside of her hotel, she mentioned that she ALMOST invited him up to her room. To which her friend replied, "If I were you, I would have."*
> 
> AND THE PASSAGE OF TIME DOESN"T FIX ANYTHING - ESPECIALLY WHEN SHE"S STILL IN HIS WORLD.
> 
> *Yea, not like before but I imagine there is still something there. *
> 
> She gets regular updates via her Bestie so she's still connected to Dave. And if her daughter is still friends with his daughter then that's another connection.
> 
> *Her daughter isn't friends with that girl anymore but yes the bestie is always at that house and I am sure she still calls her from there.*
> 
> Relationships survive because both make trade offs in their behaviors to protect the relationship and preemptively avoid situations that 'may' lead to forming emotional connections with OM (emotions she says that you can't provide her).
> 
> *Yes. *
> 
> IMO, from your posts she becomes attracted to and seeks to spend time with guys that give her some sort of special feeling. Maybe it feeds what she thinks is her creative musical or artistic side.
> 
> *I really do not know how many other guys there are. She is in contact with a lot of other people, some men, because of the work she does. *
> 
> IMO, it violates boundaries that places her at risk to bond or connect with another man - and therefore puts your relationship at high risk. Certainly makes you feel unsafe. For example, regularly writing music alone with a guy in his basement (probably harmless in the short term - but it's evidence that she still hasn't learned to protect the relationship).
> 
> *Yea and I dont think he is a real threat but I can just imagine if the roles were reversed, she would not be on board. *
> 
> It's not up to you to suck it up or assume she's over Dave. It's up to her. That obligation didn't fade or go away over time.
> 
> *For a while, I thought she was over Dave, but if simply not seeing anymore (and that only lasted a couple months) broke her heart, than this was clearly more than "an harmless little crush" which is what she called it when I first confronted her last year. *
> 
> For example, after almost losing you last summer over Dave, she should shake and vomit at the mention of his name. If she speaks of him at all, it should be about his negative qualities. And she should never have anything good to say about him.
> 
> *YES! THIS! Even though I can't really blame Dave in all of this, she knew that his presence was a threat to our relationship but yet just a couple months later she was partying with him and others until the wee hours. She really doesn't look upon him with disgust at all. *
> 
> It's not up to you to trust her with Dave. It's 100% up to her to remove any doubt.
> 
> *True.*


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> One last piece of advice.
> 
> If you've decided it's over, all that is required is for you to be proactive and inform her of your decision.
> 
> As a courtesy, you can provide the reason why (i.e., it's Dave).
> 
> You do not have to convince her that you're correct - or that she did anything wrong.
> 
> Why? First, because she'll never agree with you; and second, at this point it only matters what you think/feel. It's 100% your decision to make (based on everything she's said (not said), done (not done) since last summer.
> 
> *Yes she will likely go back to the fact that it was an innocent crush. The most recent time I brought Dave up, she said (paraphrasing heavily), "You were ignoring me." Admittedly I was not in a good space at the time because of my mental health and it was mere months removed from my mother's death and mere weeks removed since we spread her ashes during a ceremony at her final resting place. *
> 
> It's not just one single thing but an accumulation of everything (including kicking you in the balls by first creating fake drama so she could run back to Dave's house).
> 
> Your reasoning for your decision is not up for her to debate or argue about. You didn't ambush her.
> 
> *Yes and it has been taking me too long to admit. She will likely give me the "how can you just throw away your family" (her and the kid) but she was the one that risked everything last year. *


----------



## Evinrude58

Take some solace in the fact that NO MAN will ever be enough for your lady friend/wife/whatever she is. She is a serial cheater and always will be.


----------



## Robert22205

*Yes she will likely go back to the fact that it was an innocent crush. The most recent time I brought Dave up, she said (paraphrasing heavily), "You were ignoring me." Admittedly I was not in a good space at the time because of my mental health and it was mere months removed from my mother's death and mere weeks removed since we spread her ashes during a ceremony at her final resting place. 

She will likely give me the "how can you just throw away your family" (her and the kid) but she was the one that risked everything last year.  *

Once again: DO NOT ATTEMPT TO CONVINCE HER THAT YOU"RE RIGHT OR THAT SHE"S WRONG OR GUILTY OF ANYTHING.

Why? because it accomplishes nothing at this point. It doesn't matter who was right or who threw what away.

Reply and repeat as often as necessary (or just walk away): "I'm sorry you feel that way - however, my mind is made up".

btw: I suggest you provide her with your decision and reasoning in writing. That gives you a chance to pick each word carefully. And gives her time for it to sink in before she just starts yelling crying and accusing you of giving up. To protect yourself, go dark and stay overnight at a hotel. Give her 24 hours to accept it.

Note: she feels bad for loosing the nice home and a reliable supportive & caring life partner - but not for you personally. Why? because (after last summer) if she cared about you she never would have recently run back over to Dave's house. Doesn't matter what the excuse or what she says or does now - she showed her true colors and can't take that back.


----------



## wxman3441

Evinrude58 said:


> Take some solace in the fact that NO MAN will ever be enough for your lady friend/wife/whatever she is. She is a serial cheater and always will be.


*According to her, of her many boyfriends, she only cheated on 1 before me and that was in revenge for him cheating on her. *


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> *Yes she will likely go back to the fact that it was an innocent crush. The most recent time I brought Dave up, she said (paraphrasing heavily), "You were ignoring me." Admittedly I was not in a good space at the time because of my mental health and it was mere months removed from my mother's death and mere weeks removed since we spread her ashes during a ceremony at her final resting place.
> 
> She will likely give me the "how can you just throw away your family" (her and the kid) but she was the one that risked everything last year. *
> 
> Once again: DO NOT ATTEMPT TO CONVINCE HER THAT YOU"RE RIGHT OR THAT SHE"S WRONG OR GUILTY OF ANYTHING.
> 
> Why? because it accomplishes nothing at this point. It doesn't matter who was right or who threw what away.
> 
> Reply and repeat as often as necessary (or just walk away): "I'm sorry you feel that way - however, my mind is made up".
> 
> btw: I suggest you provide her with your decision and reasoning in writing. That gives you a chance to pick each word carefully. And gives her time for it to sink in before she just starts yelling crying and accusing you of giving up. To protect yourself, go dark and stay overnight at a hotel. Give her 24 hours to accept it.
> 
> Note: she feels bad for loosing the nice home and a reliable supportive & caring life partner - but not for you personally. Why? because (after last summer) if she cared about you she never would have recently run back over to Dave's house. Doesn't matter what the excuse or what she says or does now - she showed her true colors and can't take that back.
> 
> *Yea, what should have been the last straw was when shortly after Christmas, about 2 1/2 months after everything went down, her bestie invited her over there. I was invited as well but didn't go for obvious reasons. Of course Dave was there. I had just told her back n October that I didn't like when she stayed out so late but then she was out till 6am. *


----------



## Evinrude58

wxman3441 said:


> *According to her, of her many boyfriends, she only cheated on 1 before me and that was in revenge for him cheating on her. *


And surely you don’t actually believe anything she says at this point? 
she went over to this cat’s house and stayed until 6am? At what point are you going to give up on this cheater ?  The level of disrespect here is as astronomical as the level of betrayal.


----------



## Robert22205

Wow...after all the drama over Dave. I'm sorry she did that. That's new information (I didn't know). 

Was that just before the pandemic?
Did she ask you for permission? Why did you agree to her going over to Dave's house? 
How did she/you justify it in your heads?


----------



## jlg07

wxman3441 said:


> *Do you think, based on what I have said, that she is still obsessed with him? She did mention that her heart broke over him to a friend when they stopped talking a year ago. *


And didn't she say that pretty recently (within the past couple of months?)
I don't think she is over him by a long shot (I COULD be wrong -- you know her best). She may be resigned at the moment since he has a GF, but what do you think she would do if he was available again?


----------



## jlg07

"*She will likely give me the "how can you just throw away your family" (her and the kid) but she was the one that risked everything last year. * "

You need to tell her that YOU are not throwing away your family -- SHE threw you away with all this BS with Dave. DO NOT let her turn this on you. If you REALLY ignored her, SHE should have been talking to you about it and NOT listening to her GF and hanging out with Dave. That is TOTAL BS.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Wow...after all the drama over Dave. I'm sorry she did that. That's new information (I didn't know).
> 
> Was that just before the pandemic? *Yes in late December last year. *
> Did she ask you for permission? Why did you agree to her going over to Dave's house? *She may have asked. I guess I was testing her. Once I told her I wasnt going, I figured she would stay home with me. *
> How did she/you justify it in your heads? *Good question. Like I said, after she got home at 6am the next morning, I should have ended it then. *


----------



## wxman3441

jlg07 said:


> And didn't she say that pretty recently (within the past couple of months?)
> I don't think she is over him by a long shot (I COULD be wrong -- you know her best). She may be resigned at the moment since he has a GF, but what do you think she would do if he was available again?


*I think she may make a play for him if he becomes single again. What's odd that on his FB profile, it still says he is single. *


----------



## wxman3441

jlg07 said:


> "*She will likely give me the "how can you just throw away your family" (her and the kid) but she was the one that risked everything last year. * "
> 
> You need to tell her that YOU are not throwing away your family -- SHE threw you away with all this BS with Dave. DO NOT let her turn this on you. If you REALLY ignored her, SHE should have been talking to you about it and NOT listening to her GF and hanging out with Dave. That is TOTAL BS.


*I have to agree. It is not like I was being abusive or down right cruel. I may have been distance but I was clearly still grieving my mother.*


----------



## Robert22205

Where is she now? When is the 'talk' scheduled for?


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> Where is she now? When is the 'talk' scheduled for?


*We are still living together. We talked a while last night. Now she wants to try counseling but I am at the point where I don't think I have the energy for it. Needless to say the talk didn't go well. We started talking logistics about the house and how to sell it, etc. then she hammered me about the stuff I posted on FB, how I always make her feel like sh*t about herself and how I don't care that I am throwing away this family. Bringing up Dave just doesn't get anywhere. She is still trying to justify it by saying I totally ignored her and she was desperate to "feel something", which she did with Dave. She claimed that she doesn't care if he chokes and dies now and that she is tired of talking about since it has been over a year. She still goes over there on occasion because her best friend practically lives there. She admits in hindsight it was wrong but that is about it and claims our breakup is not happening because of Dave but because of the other things that have transpired over the years.

I must say that a while back that I may have given in but I couldn't bring myself to do it this time. I still feel bad, she has a way of making me feel that way. Trust me, this break up despite everything that has happened is hard but there has been too much damage done to the relationship and I just do not see how it can get back to a level where I and we are in a really good place. *


----------



## Robert22205

I think you owed her the courtesy of explaining your decision to break up.

However, you do not need her agreement - nor should you expect her to agree with you.

It's better for her reputation to blame you. And that's what she's doing. 

She will never admit that she was selfish (and stupid) enough to destroy a loving supportive relationship with a reliable and faithful man (that other women no doubt envy her over) ... over another man that has no interest in her.

She'll be a joke (and should be).

Her behavior is pathetic and sad. And negatively impacts her daughter.

However, you can't control her or fix her - nor should you try.


----------



## Robert22205

It doesn't matter what she feels toward Dave at the moment. That has no bearing on your decision.

Her behavior with Dave (last summer and since) is evidence that she's not a safe partner. And that’s the real issue here.

" I totally ignored her and she was desperate to "feel something", which she did with Dave."

- The above is not something you address in MC (she needs IC to learn constructive ways to cope).

The above is an example of wayward thinking and it subjects any relationship to the risk of infidelity. It's wayward because their behavior/commitment to the relationship depends on how they feel in the moment or how much attention you give them today vs a reliable set of moral standards. This kind of thinking makes her unsafe.

" ... she is tired of talking about since it has been over a year."

There is no limit on how much time you need to process her betrayal. Everyone is different (and 1 year is nothing especially with her lack of effort to rebuild trust). 

This is her being selfish and putting herself (her feelings) over yours. 

You're the victim of her inappropriate behavior. Your pain is 1,000 times worse than her discomfort. 

This is also her doing what she did last summer. Minimizing your pain and minimizing her betrayal.
Unfortunately, after all the drama last summer she's learned nothing (and fixed nothing).


----------



## Robert22205

She's desperate and willing to lie and make empty promises (MC) to save her meal ticket. 

She overlooks the fact you caught her excluding you from activities so she could have Dave to herself. 

Plus she changed her story from basically: She needs contact with Dave because they have a special connection and he gives her a special emotional connection/feeling/understanding that you aren't capable of providing. Now it's the blame you game: you weren't available. More thinking that makes her unsafe as a life partner.

From now on I suggest you limit discussions/contact to just the logistics of her moving out.

No doubt she will want to argue in the hopes of delaying or losing her nice home. 

Reply with something that pretty much covers anything she brings up: 

"I'm sorry you feel that way but as you know I do not agree with you."

Repeat and/or walk away as necessary.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> I think you owed her the courtesy of explaining your decision to break up.
> 
> *She argues very well and I dont. I am not sure if I did a good enough job. I did make it clear that I did not think we can work things out. *
> 
> However, you do not need her agreement - nor should you expect her to agree with you.
> 
> *She wont. She is really putting most of this one me*.
> 
> It's better for her reputation to blame you. And that's what she's doing.
> 
> *Seems like it. *
> 
> She will never admit that she was selfish (and stupid) enough to destroy a loving supportive relationship with a reliable and faithful man (that other women no doubt envy her over) ... over another man that has no interest in her.
> 
> *She did mention something similar last night. Like that Dave was being flirty and is a player type - something along those lines. *
> 
> She'll be a joke (and should be).
> 
> Her behavior is pathetic and sad. And negatively impacts her daughter.
> 
> *If she just would have accpeted what I was providing to the relationship (which I thought was enough) we may not be in this position. *
> 
> However, you can't control her or fix her - nor should you try.
> 
> *I can't*


----------



## Robert22205

IMO, it's not you that makes her feel like **** - it's her behavior towards you that makes her feel like ****. Unfortunately, instead of changing her behavior she blames you (the victim).

*She argues very well and I dont. I am not sure if I did a good enough job. I did make it clear that I did not think we can work things out. *

What do you mean by "I am not sure I did a good enough job"?

Why is it important that she agree with your reason for breaking up?
Why would she since it makes her sound selfish and stupid?

If you think it will make the break up more civil if she better understood your reasoning, you could put down your thoughts in writing. And require that she respond only in writing.

There's plenty of good posts to pull words from as to how her behavior last summer destroyed your trust and how her behavior (and comments) failed to rebuild trust.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> She's desperate and willing to lie and make empty promises (MC) to save her meal ticket.
> 
> *Possibly. *
> 
> She overlooks the fact you caught her excluding you from activities so she could have Dave to herself.
> 
> *Yes, that happened a few times. *
> 
> Plus she changed her story from basically: She needs contact with Dave because they have a special connection and he gives her a special emotional connection/feeling/understanding that you aren't capable of providing. Now it's the blame you game: you weren't available. More thinking that makes her unsafe as a life partner.
> 
> *When I first confronted her, it was just "an innocent little crush."*
> 
> From now on I suggest you limit discussions/contact to just the logistics of her moving out.
> 
> *Yea, I am realizing that it may be hard to get her out. *
> 
> No doubt she will want to argue in the hopes of delaying or losing her nice home.
> 
> *Very true. *
> 
> Reply with something that pretty much covers anything she brings up:
> 
> "I'm sorry you feel that way but as you know I do not agree with you."
> 
> Repeat and/or walk away as necessary.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> It doesn't matter what she feels toward Dave at the moment. That has no bearing on your decision.
> 
> Her behavior with Dave (last summer and since) is evidence that she's not a safe partner. And that’s the real issue here.
> 
> *And it may not be only Dave, she has has other crushes, I just dont know how far back they go but since we have been together almost 8 years. *
> 
> " I totally ignored her and she was desperate to "feel something", which she did with Dave."
> 
> - The above is not something you address in MC (she needs IC to learn constructive ways to cope).
> 
> The above is an example of wayward thinking and it subjects any relationship to the risk of infidelity. It's wayward because their behavior/commitment to the relationship depends on how they feel in the moment or how much attention you give them today vs a reliable set of moral standards. This kind of thinking makes her unsafe.
> 
> *I told her last night that if she would have came to me the minute she felt something for Dave, we could have worked through it. But she kept it going all summer. Her reply was, "How was I supposed to tell you that?"*
> 
> " ... she is tired of talking about since it has been over a year."
> 
> There is no limit on how much time you need to process her betrayal. Everyone is different (and 1 year is nothing especially with her lack of effort to rebuild trust).
> *
> I really did think I was getting past it but these new problems brought everything to the forefront again. *
> 
> This is her being selfish and putting herself (her feelings) over yours.
> 
> You're the victim of her inappropriate behavior. Your pain is 1,000 times worse than her discomfort.
> 
> *Yes, she will likely tell you otherwise. She thinks I feel nothing right now because of how I am reacting but this has all been very painful. A friend of mine said that when they saw me other night, they could just feel the stress level in me, the fact I seemed so tense and unsettled. *
> 
> This is also her doing what she did last summer. Minimizing your pain and minimizing her betrayal.
> Unfortunately, after all the drama last summer she's learned nothing (and fixed nothing).
> 
> *Seems like it. She is hell bent on trying to justify it because I was apparently so distant. *


----------



## Openminded

In her eyes, you likely left yourself an out by saying you “did not think” you could work things out. What you should have said was “no, we can’t“. Even that is just regarded as a challenge by many and she's probably one. Obviously, she can out-argue you so don’t even try. Tell her it’s done and you aren’t discussing it any more. I doubt that will stop her but the next step is walk away. I don’t think that will stop her either because she doesn’t want to give up her security blanket. She doesn’t want you but she definitely wants what you bring to the table.


----------



## Divinely Favored

When she talks about you ignoring her i would throw a "No it was YOU excluding me so YOU would have your time with Dave"

I would bet my last dollar she has screwed Dave! She has definately done a few things with him.


----------



## Robert22205

*She is hell bent on trying to justify it because I was apparently so distant. *

It's no surprise that the same selfish self serving twisted thinking she used in her head to feel entitled to Dave's attention is the very same selfish self serving twisted thinking she uses to justify it to you.

After all it was good enough to justify her behavior to herself (so of course she thinks it has to be good enough for you). All cheaters are able to convince themselves that they are entitled to more than what their relationship offers (and put you down). 

Frankly, her sense of entitlement and self serving decisions are 100% hers alone and have nothing to do with you. There is nothing you could have said or done to avoid this break up. 

No matter how much you do for her and her daughter - it wouldn't be enough.

When someone shows you 'who' they are - believe them.

It's typical wayward logic and one more example of why she's not a safe long term life partner.


----------



## wxman3441

Divinely Favored said:


> When she talks about you ignoring her i would throw a "No it was YOU excluding me so YOU would have your time with Dave"
> 
> I would bet my last dollar she has screwed Dave! She has definitely done a few things with him.


*Im not sure but I doubt she would ever admit it. *


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> *She is hell bent on trying to justify it because I was apparently so distant. *
> 
> It's no surprise that the same selfish self serving twisted thinking she used in her head to feel entitled to Dave's attention is the very same selfish self serving twisted thinking she uses to justify it to you.
> 
> *And she is good at it. I have repeatedly said that I was wrong for making those FB posts instead of laying out those issues directly with her but its seems impossible to get her to say, "I am really sorry for what happened with Dave last summer and all I can do is prove to you that something like this will never happen again."*
> 
> After all it was good enough to justify her behavior to herself (so of course she thinks it has to be good enough for you). All cheaters are able to convince themselves that they are entitled to more than what their relationship offers (and put you down).
> 
> Frankly, her sense of entitlement and self serving decisions are 100% hers alone and have nothing to do with you. There is nothing you could have said or done to avoid this break up.
> 
> *Most likely. *
> 
> No matter how much you do for her and her daughter - it wouldn't be enough.
> 
> *She gets really angry when I say this and wants me to never say it again but I feel it so strongly. *
> 
> When someone shows you 'who' they are - believe them.
> 
> *As in her actions, especially last year I assume. *
> 
> It's typical wayward logic and one more example of why she's not a safe long term life partner.
> 
> *And I need safety right now. *


----------



## wxman3441

wxman3441 said:


> *Im not sure but I doubt she would ever admit it. *


I’m not sure. There is really no evidence that she went that far. But the other stuff is pretty bad.


----------



## syhoybenden

Could you please tell us once again why exactly it is that you want to fix this??

Move on.

She is not a "keeper". Throw her back.


----------



## Evinrude58

wxman3441 said:


> I’m not sure. There is really no evidence that she went that far. But the other stuff is pretty bad.


What are you referring to? You don’t think she screwed Dave? You aren’t THAT naive, are you?


----------



## Robert22205

When someone shows you 'who' they are - believe them.

*As in her actions, especially last year I assume. *

Not just her actions - but her self serving thinking/thought process that justifies her relationship destroying actions. And her blaming you for her daily decisions to pursue Dave (as if she had no choice). 

For example: "you didn't provide enough attention therefore I pursued Dave". It's wayward thinking and that's what makes her an unsafe life partner. She needs a lot of IC to change her thinking and coping skills.


----------



## wxman3441

Evinrude58 said:


> What are you referring to? You don’t think she screwed Dave? You aren’t THAT naive, are you?


*Maybe a little naive. I went through her phone in the past (wrong I know) and I saw the message she sent to Dave, saying they couldn't hang out anymore because I found out what was going on. It said something along the lines. "I shouldn't have let myself have feelings for you but we cant talk anymore" I'm paraphrasing heavily but I think she would have mentioned if they were physical. She's mentioned to her friends that it was nothing physical either based on texts I saw. 

That's still doesn't excuse her behavior of course. *


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> When someone shows you 'who' they are - believe them.
> 
> *As in her actions, especially last year I assume. *
> 
> Not just her actions - but her self serving thinking/thought process that justifies her relationship destroying actions. And her blaming you for her daily decisions to pursue Dave (as if she had no choice).
> 
> For example: "you didn't provide enough attention therefore I pursued Dave". It's wayward thinking and that's what makes her an unsafe life partner. She needs a lot of IC to change her thinking and coping skills.


*Yea I do think individual counseling would help her but shes not a fan of counseling in general. *


----------



## Lostinthought61

wxman, you missed your calling in life you honestly you shoudl have been a defense attorney because they way you defend your wife is amazing, most of us would have cut our losses and move on....but i have to give you credit for staying with someone who you can't trust and who pines for others.


----------



## Evinrude58

You are correct to divorce her if you do.
She is not only a cheater, but a remorseless, entitled cheater who consistently blames you and I believe shows some narcissistic tendencies in gaslighting you AND being unable to admit her wrongdoing and give a real apology.


----------



## Divinely Favored

wxman3441 said:


> *Maybe a little naive. I went through her phone in the past (wrong I know) and I saw the message she sent to Dave, saying they couldn't hang out anymore because I found out what was going on. It said something along the lines. "I shouldn't have let myself have feelings for you but we cant talk anymore" I'm paraphrasing heavily but I think she would have mentioned if they were physical. She's mentioned to her friends that it was nothing physical either based on texts I saw.
> 
> That's still doesn't excuse her behavior of course. *


 I went through her phone in the past (wrong I know) and I saw the message she sent to Dave, saying they couldn't hang out anymore because I found out what was going on.

No it is not wrong. She admitted in this there was something "going on" and she knew it was wrong and was doing it anyway and it was being hidden from you and you found out.


----------



## Livvie

They aren't married.


----------



## Lostinthought61

she certainly has a way of weaving false or imaginary memories to create a story in which the entire blame for your relationship rest solely on you. I don't see her getting any insight that will have her pondering her own actions to the degree where she will take 50% of responsibility for this relationship. Wxman she honestly a very sad and shallow human being.


----------



## wxman3441

Lostinthought61 said:


> she certainly has a way of weaving false or imaginary memories to create a story in which the entire blame for your relationship rest solely on you. I don't see her getting any insight that will have her pondering her own actions to the degree where she will take 50% of responsibility for this relationship. Wxman she honestly a very sad and shallow human being.


I appriciate your insight. I guess where I am struggling is that she does possess many great qualities as a person, mother and an artist. She is well known and respected in the community for her contributions to her culture. Everyone who knows her has nothing but good things to say. 

But that said, they aren’t dating her. We have had a lot of struggles leading up to the events of last summer. I can almost accept her developing feelings for someone else. But what killed it for me is essentially hiding that for months, sneaking away to see him then admitting to a close friend that cutting ties with him caused her heartbreak. 

Her attitude the past few days reeks of bitterness and while I was not the perfect partner, much of this is on her. She fell hard for another man and is resentful that I am not stepping into the role of full time father for her daughter due to her ex not stepping up to the plate and after I never promised her these things. Hard to come back from.


----------



## jlg07

wxman3441 said:


> Her attitude the past few days reeks of bitterness and while I was not the perfect partner, much of this is on her. She fell hard for another man and is resentful that I am not stepping into the role of full time father for her daughter due to her ex not stepping up to the plate and after I never promised her these things. Hard to come back from.


WHY would she expect you to become the full time father of her child when SHE WANTS SOMEONE else? Makes NO sense other than the fact that you are stable and provide a good life for her.
The "image" she projects to the outside world of being a good person is just that -- an IMAGE, not reality. We ALL have good things and bad things that make up our personalities. HER bad things make her a poor choice to be your GF, all other good things aside.
She isn't admitting to you what she did, how bad it was, how sorry she is that it happened, is actively working via counseling to make sure it doesn't happen again, working to help YOU through it knowing it's all her fault... etc..
She's not remorseful, she just wants you to stop complaining and have it go back to the way it was before (rug sweep).


----------



## Evinrude58

wxman3441 said:


> I appriciate your insight. I guess where I am struggling is that she does possess many great qualities as a person, mother and an artist. She is well known and respected in the community for her contributions to her culture. Everyone who knows her has nothing but good things to say.
> 
> But that said, they aren’t dating her. We have had a lot of struggles leading up to the events of last summer.* I can almost accept her developing feelings for someone else. *But what killed it for me is essentially hiding that for months, sneaking away to see him then admitting to a close friend that cutting ties with him caused her heartbreak.
> 
> Her attitude the past few days reeks of bitterness and while I was not the perfect partner, much of this is on her. She fell hard for another man and is resentful that I am not stepping into the role of full time father for her daughter due to her ex not stepping up to the plate and after I never promised her these things. Hard to come back from.


the above quote I don’t understand. How could you possibly be accepting of this, since she is supposed to be your girlfriend and now considered you as part of her “family” which she claims you are breaking up. She is not your wife. She may have been auditioning for the role. You are not the child’s father. Her audition has been a complete failure.

You should never accept that a girlfriend develops feelings for another man. If you are willing to accept that if a girlfriend, then you are doomed to never have a relationship with a faithful partner. What you are willing to accept, is UNacceptable to a reasonable person.

she doesn’t have that many good qualities that I can tell based on your description. She’s lacking in the most important ones: loyalty, honor, honesty, work ethic......

she’s a good artist? Well that is a virtue that doesn’t really factor into a relationship.


----------



## Openminded

What she resents is that you haven’t jumped to forgive her. She truly felt she could do as she pleased and you’d always be fine with it. As for her daughter, that’s not your responsibility although she has tried very hard to put that on you. My guess is your reliability is the major reason why she picked you. Now that she realizes she is likely going to lose that, she’s bitter. Not contrite. Not remorseful. Bitter. Apparently, she thinks you owe her and her daughter a good life. She obviously has entitlement issues, As to how she’s viewed in the community, the old saying about no one knowing what goes on behind closed doors applies.


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## Robert22205

SHE DID NOT FALL FOR DAVE. It was a one sided affair. She made a conscious effort to build a romantic connection and then attempted to escalate it by excluding you from the picture.

Nothing you did forced her to reach out to another man. She could have talked to you, gone to IC, talked to a GF, or even gotten validation by volunteering to work at the hospital. 

Not only was it selfish (and relationship destructive) but there was a huge amount of deceit.

Regardless of her public or community image 'nice' people are not deceitful. But she is ....


----------



## Robert22205

She sounds like an attractive and very sociable woman that’s used to getting her own way with men. Maybe her girlfriends do the same.

IMO, she acts the way she does because she got away with it in the past with other guys as well as you. Deep down she believes you won’t break up; and if necessary she can always blame you and guilt you into giving her another chance.

When you take candy away from a child they escalate and have a temper tantrum. Same here.

She’s selfish and used to crapping on you. Her anger and bitterness is expected. She’ll escalate the drama because it’s worked in the past.

IMO, stop responding to her attempts to change the subject (away from the trust issue and her affair with Dave) by bringing up other relationship issues and shifting blame to you (and guilting you over the daughter).

Reply with: I’m sorry you feel that way but I’m breaking up with you because I don’t trust you. (and walk away)

IMO, the appropriate response from her should be: she's willing to whatever you need to rebuild your trust. Anything less is not accceptable.


----------



## Robert22205

Whether you have 100% decided to break up or whether there’s a 5% chance that you may change your mind … the words out of your mouth are actually the same.

In order for her to be motivated to choose to change her behavior she must first take you seriously and believe that you have already decided to break up with her. Specifically, that items 1 & 2 below are 100% non-negotiable and there are no exceptions or excuses. She’s either all in – or she’s out.

I suggest you Inform her in writing that her romantic thoughts and behavior toward Dave last summer (including her self-serving excuses for additional visits and staying overnight at his house) have destroyed any chance of you trusting her again. 

Inform her that you have decided to break up because:

1 – you deserve a life partner that does not think it’s harmless to sneak behind your back to step outside the relationship whenever she’s angry, bored or unhappy - or feels entitled to more attention from another man. This is non-negotiable so whether she agrees with you on this ‘requirement’ is not relevant.

2 – you deserve a life partner that does not under any circumstances allow herself to develop a romantic connection with another man. This is non-negotiable so whether she agrees with you on this ‘requirement’ is not relevant.

3 – after discovering her deceitful behavior last summer, she was given a second chance to rebuild your trust and failed (don’t bother listing all the details again). 

4 – the next time it will be someone else. It doesn’t matter if she currently has feelings for Dave.

5 – although it’s unfortunate that I will no longer be a ‘parent’ to your daughter, I can’t control your behavior or your romantic thoughts. Therefore, I must protect myself from someone I no longer trust by breaking up.


----------



## Livvie

I don't think there should be any more discussion except: I've decided I want to end this relationship.

Any continuing discussions and he's gonna get sucked in. Eventually you will regret the time spent in this relationship if you let it continue.

Deep down you know partnership should be better than this. And that when a GIRLFRIEND falls hard for another man, it's time to say bye bye.


----------



## wxman3441

jlg07 said:


> WHY would she expect you to become the full time father of her child when SHE WANTS SOMEONE else? Makes NO sense other than the fact that you are stable and provide a good life for her.
> 
> *I do provide a stable life. Compared to her ex. She does well for herself but depends on me for a lot of things including transportation. *
> 
> The "image" she projects to the outside world of being a good person is just that -- an IMAGE, not reality. We ALL have good things and bad things that make up our personalities. HER bad things make her a poor choice to be your GF, all other good things aside.
> 
> *Her and many of her friends seem to thing being into other men while fully committed is normal. Not me. Finding other people attractive is one thing but you are not supposed to allow yourself to have crushes*.
> 
> She isn't admitting to you what she did, how bad it was, how sorry she is that it happened, is actively working via counseling to make sure it doesn't happen again, working to help YOU through it knowing it's all her fault... etc..
> She's not remorseful, she just wants you to stop complaining and have it go back to the way it was before (rug sweep).
> 
> *Through it all, she has shown little remorse. For a while she almost had me convinced it was just an innocent crush but seeing how sad she was when she stopped going over there then hearing her admit it was soul crushing and heart breaking to not see him anymore is hard to come back from. *


----------



## wxman3441

Evinrude58 said:


> the above quote I don’t understand. How could you possibly be accepting of this, since she is supposed to be your girlfriend and now considered you as part of her “family” which she claims you are breaking up. She is not your wife. She may have been auditioning for the role. You are not the child’s father. Her audition has been a complete failure.
> 
> You should never accept that a girlfriend develops feelings for another man. If you are willing to accept that if a girlfriend, then you are doomed to never have a relationship with a faithful partner. What you are willing to accept, is UNacceptable to a reasonable person.
> 
> *I agree. The point I was making was that she should have caught herself the second she felt something and said to herself, “why am I feeling this way? I have to back off from him now!” She didn’t and this went on for about 3 months. Stressing this to her gets me nowhere. All she says is “you were ignoring me!”*
> 
> she doesn’t have that many good qualities that I can tell based on your description. She’s lacking in the most important ones: loyalty, honor, honesty, work ethic......
> 
> *she has great work ethic...at work. But I do feel she hasn’t worked hard enough at the relationship. *
> 
> she’s a good artist? Well that is a virtue that doesn’t really factor into a relationship.


----------



## wxman3441

Openminded said:


> What she resents is that you haven’t jumped to forgive her. She truly felt she could do as she pleased and you’d always be fine with it. As for her daughter, that’s not your responsibility although she has tried very hard to put that on you. My guess is your reliability is the major reason why she picked you. Now that she realizes she is likely going to lose that, she’s bitter. Not contrite. Not remorseful. Bitter. Apparently, she thinks you owe her and her daughter a good life. She obviously has entitlement issues, As to how she’s viewed in the community, the old saying about no one knowing what goes on behind closed doors applies.


*A lot of that is true. She is shocked that I do not want to take on her daughter fully. And don’t get me wrong, she’s a pretty good kid and I care about her but since we started having issues I have pulled back a bit. *


----------



## Livvie

wxman3441 said:


> *A lot of that is true. She is shocked that I do not want to take on her daughter fully. And don’t get me wrong, she’s a pretty good kid and I care about her but since we started having issues I have pulled back a bit. *


Only a VERY entitled person would just expect you to _take on their child fully_, AS A GIRLFRIEND. Even married people who come into a marriage with a child-- there can often be discussions surrounding that. 

I'm a divorced mother. I know other divorced mothers. The ones who have respect for their new partners (who are not the father to their children) understand that the ways their new partners support these children that aren't their own - are gifts that are given; gifts of time, care, guidance, financial support, etc. Entitlement is just horribly rude!!!!!!!!


----------



## wxman3441

Livvie said:


> Only a VERY entitled person would just expect you to _take on their child fully_, AS A GIRLFRIEND. Even married people who come into a marriage with a child-- there can often be discussions surrounding that.
> 
> I'm a divorced mother. I know other divorced mothers. The ones who have respect for their new partners (who are not the father to their children) understand that the ways their new partners support these children that aren't their own - are gifts that are given; gifts of time, care, guidance, financial support, etc. Entitlement is just horribly rude!!!!!!!!


The thing is, BEFORE we even met in person and I knew she had a child, I said I respect that fact that she has a child and if things progress I’d be happy to be in her life, be kind, make her feel safe, etc. But I would prefer to not have any serious emotional and financial responsibility.
If the child’s father was doing more financially which he is technically legally required to, this would likely be less of an issue.


----------



## Robert22205

*Her and many of her friends seem to thing being into other men while fully committed is normal. Not me. Finding other people attractive is one thing but you are not supposed to allow yourself to have crushes*.

The above behavior (core value) is what makes her an unsafe partner. 

Doesn't matter if she's had sex outside the relationship (yet). One, it's not harmless because she runs the risk of losing control and being unfaithful (which in turn makes you feel unsafe); and two, equally important is that you deserve 100% all her romantic passion.

Whether she agrees with this or not - she has never been 100% committed to the relationship.

Inform her she's entitled to crush and pursue (emotionally if not physically) any man she wants - but not as your life partner.


----------



## Robert22205

*All she says is “you were ignoring me!”*

Reply: It doesn't matter if you thought I was ignoring you. That's no excuse. I need a partner who's 100% committed to this relationship regardless of whether she's bored, angry, or feeling ignored. Therefore, I'm breaking up with you.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> *All she says is “you were ignoring me!”*
> 
> Reply: It doesn't matter if you thought I was ignoring you. That's no excuse. I need a partner who's 100% committed to this relationship regardless of whether she's bored, angry, or feeling ignored. Therefore, I'm breaking up with you.


Yea, me "ignoring" her while mourning the death of my mother is not an excuse.


----------



## Robert22205

What's the plan for the holidays? Can you two not talk about the break up and put on a smile until after? Are you exchanging gifts? Cooking a big meal?


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> What's the plan for the holidays? Can you two not talk about the break up and put on a smile until after? Are you exchanging gifts? Cooking a big meal?


*She will be here through the holidays. I think the plan is to push things aside for now. Of course, with a 14 y/o child involved, its best to keep some normalcy through the holidays. I may get a gift for her and the kid then I imagine once the holidays are over, it is time to talk serious about logistics. *


----------



## Robert22205

*I think the plan is to push things aside for now. Of course, with a 14 y/o child involved, its best to keep some normalcy through the holidays. I may get a gift for her and the kid then I imagine once the holidays are over, it is time to talk serious about logistics. *

Rather than just assume she's onboard, I suggest you be the hero and give 110% over the holidays. Take a lead role/be proactive and clear the air by proposing the above plan.

Specifically, that you both agree to follow your usual holiday traditions and giving nice gifts ... put on a happy face and be nice (not just tolerate) to one another in the spirit of Xmas. 

Agree to postpone any further talk about the relationship (or showing a negative attitude) and her move out date until a specific date. 

No matter what happens take the high road and stick to the holiday plan (for your mental health) even if you see signs that she's not.


----------



## Livvie

I'd stick to the holiday plans, I guess. But in the FULL JOINT knowledge that the relationship is ending and she's moving out in January.


----------



## wxman3441

Rough morning. Our cats toppled the Christmas tree and broke some sentimental ornaments. In her anger, she picked up an ornament i got her a couple years ago and said, why couldn’t they smash this fu$king thing? Right in front of her daughter.

I had to bite my tongue and not say, “well if you didn’t practically fall in love with another man last year, you wouldn’t be this emotional right now.


----------



## Livvie

wxman3441 said:


> Rough morning. Our cats toppled the Christmas tree and broke some sentimental ornaments. In her anger, she picked up an ornament i got her a couple years ago and said, why couldn’t they smash this fu$king thing? Right in front of her daughter.
> 
> I had to bite my tongue and not say, “well if you didn’t practically fall in love with another man last year, you wouldn’t be this emotional right now.


Buckle up for a bumpy ride. This might not be a healthy situation for the daughter, this "staying together through the holidays". The more you lay out that it's over and the more she is making plans to move out, the better it'll be.


----------



## Livvie

.... does the daughter know the relationship is over and that she and her mom are moving out after the holidays? I think it might be better to tell her what the heck is going on so she can mentally and emotionally prepare.


----------



## Evinrude58

wxman3441 said:


> Rough morning. Our cats toppled the Christmas tree and broke some sentimental ornaments. In her anger, she picked up an ornament i got her a couple years ago and said, why couldn’t they smash this fu$king thing? Right in front of her daughter.
> 
> I had to bite my tongue and not say, “well if you didn’t *practically* fall in love with another man last year, you wouldn’t be this emotional right now.


Omit that word...more accurate.

why should you have to bite your tongue? That’s awful what she said.
You have a lot of self control not to escalate that incident in front of your girl. Bravo.

I do not get your wife. She has betrayed you for years and has no empathy whatsoever for how she has made you feel. I think she may be extremely narcissistic.

is she : Incapable of apologizing sincerely?
Never, I mean never, able to admit she did wrong?
Uses you and whenever you point out the inbalance in effort she says things like “I don’t do tit for tat”??


----------



## Livvie

Evinrude58 said:


> Omit that word...more accurate.
> 
> why should you have to bite your tongue? That’s awful what she said.
> You have a lot of self control not to escalate that incident in front of your girl. Bravo.
> 
> I do not get your wife. She has betrayed you for years and has no empathy whatsoever for how she has made you feel. I think she may be extremely narcissistic.
> 
> is she : Incapable of apologizing sincerely?
> Never, I mean never, able to admit she did wrong?
> Uses you and whenever you point out the inbalance in effort she says things like “I don’t do tit for tat”??


@Evinrude58, this isn't even his wife. It's a girlfriend!! Which is why it should be so much easier to terminate this.


----------



## Evinrude58

Livvie said:


> @Evinrude58, this isn't even his wife. It's a girlfriend!! Which is why it should be so much easier to terminate this.


I keep forgetting, you are correct. But OP’s feelings for this vile whisper of a woman have made him just as weakened as a betrayed husband who has been cut down at the knees.
Where or when he will find the strength to remove this anchor from his neck, only he knows.


----------



## Robert22205

I'm sorry she acted so poorly to you and in front of her 14yo daughter. You didn't deserve that.

Being passive just encourages her because there's no consequences to her. 

1 - I suggest you carry a VAR to protect youself from domestic violence charges.

IMO, if she loved you, the appropriate response from her would be to offer to do anything for a second chance to rebuild your trust. 

2 - If she wants to discuss your relationship in front of others either directly, or through outbursts, or a general bad attitude, you need to discourage it. 

3 - IMO, she is desperate to hide the fact that she's foolish enough to risk losing you over a one sided romance with Dave. 

4 - The next time she wants to go public with things: reply with something like: 

_I understand that you are angry because I'm breaking up with you over your secret romantic attachments to other men. Being nasty and rude and sabotaging Xmas isn't going to change my mind. [And walk away]_


----------



## Marc878

If it’s girlfriend you don’t say ****. Just exit and don’t look back.


----------



## wxman3441

Livvie said:


> .... does the daughter know the relationship is over and that she and her mom are moving out after the holidays? I think it might be better to tell her what the heck is going on so she can mentally and emotionally prepare.


The daughter knows it’s over. Not sure what else she has been told.


----------



## wxman3441

Evinrude58 said:


> Omit that word...more accurate.
> 
> why should you have to bite your tongue? That’s awful what she said.
> You have a lot of self control not to escalate that incident in front of your girl. Bravo.
> 
> *She did apologize and admitted she was intentionally trying to hurt me. *
> 
> I do not get your wife. She has betrayed you for years and has no empathy whatsoever for how she has made you feel. I think she may be extremely narcissistic.
> 
> is she : Incapable of apologizing sincerely? *Seems like it. She feels that "affair" with Dave was innocent and I drove her to do it. *
> Never, I mean never, able to admit she did wrong? *She may have apologized and few times and said she crossed the line but there never seemed to be deep remorse. *
> Uses you and whenever you point out the imbalance in effort she says things like “I don’t do tit for tat”??


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> I'm sorry she acted so poorly to you and in front of her 14yo daughter. You didn't deserve that.
> 
> Being passive just encourages her because there's no consequences to her.
> 
> 1 - I suggest you carry a VAR to protect yourself from domestic violence charges.
> 
> *I have recorded her in the past then got rid of the recorder. She actually suspected I had a recorder and was looking for one. I would have to hide it really well. *
> 
> IMO, if she loved you, the appropriate response from her would be to offer to do anything for a second chance to rebuild your trust.
> 
> *For a while, I felt she was doing some of the right things to rebuild the trust but we also went into a pandemic so she was forced to be isolated. *
> 
> 2 - If she wants to discuss your relationship in front of others either directly, or through outbursts, or a general bad attitude, you need to discourage it.
> 
> 3 - IMO, she is desperate to hide the fact that she's foolish enough to risk losing you over a one sided romance with Dave.
> 
> *I have always wondered if she revealed her feelings for Dave to her daughter. *
> 
> 4 - The next time she wants to go public with things: reply with something like:
> 
> _I understand that you are angry because I'm breaking up with you over your secret romantic attachments to other men. Being nasty and rude and sabotaging Xmas isn't going to change my mind. [And walk away]_


----------



## Robert22205

I'm glad she apologized. 

That would have been a good time to clarify/agree on how you two conduct yourselves during the holidays.

Now more than ever, I think you should carry the VAR. Don’t even attempt to hide it from her.

The VAR sends/reinforces your message (to her and everyone else) that you don't trust her; and that you are breaking up with her because her affair with Dave (including her behavior since) destroyed your trust.

The VAR is not to spy on her. You are no longer interested in how she feels or what she does with Dave or any other man.

Inform her that you carry the VAR so there is no misunderstanding about what's discussed about the break up, move out, or division of property. 

The VAR also serves the purpose of protecting you against a domestic violence charge (you don't have to share that with her).

The VAR benefits both of you. 
Suggest she carry one too.


----------



## Evinrude58

All I can say is I think you are right to get out of this marriage, I think your wife is using you and has no real feelings for you, and I believe she does have some personality problems although we only have your dude if the story to gi I also truly believe that when a woman develops feelings for another man, her feelings for her husband are lost forever.
i don’t believe there’s many cases where a person can romantically love 2 people at once. 

Lastly, I think your wife will likely be a serial cheater the rest of her life. This attitude of how you “drive her to cheat”—- wow, that’s entitlement thinking to an exponential degree. And then you have the “I can’t believe you’re willing to break up our family”. Pretty crazy. One can’t chase other men as hard as she’s chased old Davy and not fully expect to be ejected from the marriage like a schoolyard hot potato. She seems pretty crazy. Talk about driving someone to do something—- she would go stay all night at her AP’s house every time you had an argument! Yeah, she’s managed to drive you to finally wise up.

good luck getting rid of her. I think it will be extremely difficult.


----------



## Robert22205

IMO, she's already discussed the break up with her Bestie (so everyone knows her self serving version by now). 

The daughter knows there's a problem and has probably asked her what's going on.

Her version will be pretty much the self serving summary that she's already used on you. 

It was a harmless crush. She does all the work in the relationship and everything (except for minor stuff) is your fault. 

She'll omit the part about her excluding you from social activities so she could pursue Dave. 

She'll omit the part about how it destroyed her soul to go NC with Dave. 

And she'll omit the part about how she: 

believes everyone pursues romantic connections outside the relationship,
told you that she has deep satisfying discussions with him that you can't provide;
continued to talk/think about him & worry about him getting enough to eat or being alone on holiday,
never went full NC (which she knew was critical to rebuild trust) and continued to visit his house, including staying over all night and rolling home at 6am.
 
BTW: did she ever disclose what the deeply satisfying discussion topics?


----------



## Livvie

Evinrude58 said:


> All I can say is I think you are right to get out of this marriage, I think your wife is using you and has no real feelings for you, and I believe she does have some personality problems although we only have your dude if the story to gi I also truly believe that when a woman develops feelings for another man, her feelings for her husband are lost forever.
> i don’t believe there’s many cases where a person can romantically love 2 people at once.
> 
> Lastly, I think your wife will likely be a serial cheater the rest of her life. This attitude of how you “drive her to cheat”—- wow, that’s entitlement thinking to an exponential degree. And then you have the “I can’t believe you’re willing to break up our family”. Pretty crazy. One can’t chase other men as hard as she’s chased old Davy and not fully expect to be ejected from the marriage like a schoolyard hot potato. She seems pretty crazy. Talk about driving someone to do something—- she would go stay all night at her AP’s house every time you had an argument! Yeah, she’s managed to drive you to finally wise up.
> 
> good luck getting rid of her. I think it will be extremely difficult.


These two aren't married. She's a girlfriend, not his wife. Which is why it might be in OP's interest for him to stop self-analysing the situation (especially with the girlfriend) and move himself into a big MOVING ON mindset for himself.


----------



## wxman3441

Evinrude58 said:


> All I can say is I think you are right to get out of this marriage, I think your wife is using you and has no real feelings for you, and I believe she does have some personality problems although we only have your dude if the story to gi I also truly believe that when a woman develops feelings for another man, her feelings for her husband are lost forever.
> i don’t believe there’s many cases where a person can romantically love 2 people at once.
> 
> *We aren't married. Maybe considered common low. She would probably tell you that she never fell in love with Dave. And maybe it wasn't love but it was certaintly something strong. I have proof that she used terms like "crazy about him", my feelings are way less intense", "engaged and hopeless" (while chatting in the kitchen) and "broken hearted" and "soul crushed" when she couldn't see him anymore. In the weeks after I confronted her about Dave (October of last year), she sat on the couch every night and seemed deeply depressed. I thought it was because she wasnt spending enough time with her bestie but after realizing her heart broke after losing Dave, it was likely not seeing him that depressed her. After my ex-wife cheated on me in 2012, I promised myself I wouldnt allow this to happen again. *
> 
> Lastly, I think your wife will likely be a serial cheater the rest of her life. This attitude of how you “drive her to cheat”—- wow, that’s entitlement thinking to an exponential degree. And then you have the “I can’t believe you’re willing to break up our family”. Pretty crazy. One can’t chase other men as hard as she’s chased old Davy and not fully expect to be ejected from the marriage like a schoolyard hot potato. She seems pretty crazy. Talk about driving someone to do something—- she would go stay all night at her AP’s house every time you had an argument! Yeah, she’s managed to drive you to finally wise up.
> 
> *I should have wised up last year. After laying into me the morning after I worked 12 hours during the overnight because she was spending too much on cabs and then finding out I vented some of my frustration in a private FB group, I didnt have the desire to save this. *
> 
> good luck getting rid of her. I think it will be extremely difficult.
> 
> *You may be right there. She has already admitted that she will have a reduction in lifestyle. She makes decent money but her daughter is a bit spoiled and demanding so they live a rather lavish lifestyle for being middle class. *


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> IMO, she's already discussed the break up with her Bestie (so everyone knows her self serving version by now).
> 
> *I am nearly certain she has. *
> 
> The daughter knows there's a problem and has probably asked her what's going on.
> 
> *She told her daughter about the break-up right away. She was very sad at first but seems ok now. *
> 
> Her version will be pretty much the self serving summary that she's already used on you.
> 
> *Yes, I am sure she has made me to look like the bad one: "He trashed me on the internet to strangers! He only sees the bad in me. He makes me feel worthless."*
> 
> It was a harmless crush. She does all the work in the relationship and everything (except for minor stuff) is your fault.
> 
> *Yes.*
> 
> She'll omit the part about her excluding you from social activities so she could pursue Dave.
> 
> *Likely. *
> 
> She'll omit the part about how it destroyed her soul to go NC with Dave.
> 
> *We'll did tell another very close friend that her heart was broken and soul crushed.*
> 
> And she'll omit the part about how she:
> 
> believes everyone pursues romantic connections outside the relationship,
> told you that she has deep satisfying discussions with him that you can't provide;
> continued to talk/think about him & worry about him getting enough to eat or being alone on holiday,
> never went full NC (which she knew was critical to rebuild trust) and continued to visit his house, including staying over all night and rolling home at 6am.
> *Yes pretty much. But of course she needed to "feel something", which I wasn't providing. *
> 
> BTW: did she ever disclose what the deeply satisfying discussion topics?
> 
> *No, I don't really know what they talked about that captured her soul. They are both parents and like the same kind of music so maybe they started there. *


----------



## Openminded

At minimum, she has a huge crush on him and beyond that who knows— anything’s possible. What’s obvious is that she has cared much more about him than she does about you for quite awhile. Remind yourself of that in case you’re tempted to reconcile when it’s time for her to move out. My guess is that she’s going to do everything she can think of to convince you to try again once she realizes you really are done.


----------



## Evinrude58

dude, she loves the guy, he’s a player, and she’s spent the night at his house multiple times. The only deep satisfying discussions she had with him involved his penis and her vagina.

she’s not your wife and you didn’t boot her when you first learned about this a year ago.
I suspect she will suggest you two be roommates and see other people so she can continue using you. Expect this. It’s what she’s been doing already for over a year. 

you should be extra thankful. Praying on your knees that you never got her pregnant. 
you are really lucky on this. You sound like a reasonable dude. You’ll find someone you can have a lot more feelings for than her.


----------



## wxman3441

Evinrude58 said:


> dude, she loves the guy, he’s a player, and she’s spent the night at his house multiple times. The only deep satisfying discussions she had with him involved his penis and her vagina.
> 
> *Not trying to be naive but I am not convinced this happened because I looked through her phone and recorded her many times. Not saying what she did wasn't way out of line. Now, it is possible she did sleep with him and decided to never bring it up, even with her friends. But she is usually pretty open with them. *
> 
> she’s not your wife and you didn’t boot her when you first learned about this a year ago.
> I suspect she will suggest you two be roommates and see other people so she can continue using you. Expect this. It’s what she’s been doing already for over a year.
> 
> *I am prepared for that possibility. Not happening. *
> 
> you should be extra thankful. Praying on your knees that you never got her pregnant.
> you are really lucky on this. You sound like a reasonable dude. You’ll find someone you can have a lot more feelings for than her.
> 
> *I got snipped 2 years ago. Given the problems were having at the time, I didnt think having a kid with her was a good idea. Leading up to that, I was already helping taking care of her daughter and her adult brother and denied her request to adopt a troubled teen from the system. I didn't need another kid. *


----------



## wxman3441

Openminded said:


> At minimum, she has a huge crush on him and beyond that who knows— anything’s possible. What’s obvious is that she has cared much more about him than she does about you for quite awhile. Remind yourself of that in case you’re tempted to reconcile when it’s time for her to move out. My guess is that she’s going to do everything she can think of to convince you to try again once she realizes you really are done.
> 
> *True, this was at the time when I was in a dark place after losing my mother. She recently told me, she wouldnt care if he choked and died but I wonder if that is even true. Even if so, there is another Dave out there who could give her the things I can not - deep intimate conversations and full support and a replacement father for her daughter. *


----------



## Openminded

No reason to wonder — it isn’t true. If he was interested today she’d be all over him. She just doesn’t want you to know that’s the case.


----------



## wxman3441

Openminded said:


> No reason to wonder — it isn’t true. If he was interested today she’d be all over him. She just doesn’t want you to know that’s the case.


Probably. She felt the need to tell me today her mom cried over her. We shared so much of each other but she falls for someone else? I just don’t get it.


----------



## Robert22205

IMO she's addicted to the high she gets from the EAs. According to your posts, this isn't her first emotional affair (EA). Don't beat yourself up over why she can't commit 100%. 

She's broken, selfish and very manipulative.

If you hadn't pulled away over your mother's death, she would have found or created another excuse to justify her behavior. For example, just like she used your FB vent to justify running back to Dave's house.

Her statements that: others do it, or it's harmless , or she "needed to feel something" is just her way of shifting blame away from herself (and to continue doing it with other men). That's why she's an unsafe partner. 

There is nothing you could have done or said to prevent her EA/pursuit of Dave. There wasn't any thing special about Dave either.

She created the fantasy around Dave (and others before Dave) that they have some unique deep soulmate connection in order to make herself feel 'special' and to fill some dark hole inside her self esteem. 

There is no basis in fact for the deep soulmate connection. That's why she never shared the 'deep' conversations with you (the conversations were just hot air about every day things or experiences).

Did she believe her lies? Yes. But you should not.

When she says "she needed to feel something" or felt ignored, respond with: That's not an excuse (and walk away).

BTW: eliminating you from activities so she could have access to Dave (without you around) is not consistent with her having any desire for more attention from you. Just the opposite.


----------



## Robert22205

I have no opinion about whether she had sex with Dave. Although her excluding you from activities and spending entire evenings socializing at his house (without you) was setting herself up for the EA to escalate to a PA.

Regardless, IMO she's at high risk to eventually cross the line and have sex with an OM. That's why she's not a safe partner.

Only she can fix herself (and she's not even close to acknowledging she's unsafe).

Therefore, you can't argue with a tree, all you can do is protect yourself and exit the relationship.


----------



## jlg07

wxman3441 said:


> *True, this was at the time when I was in a dark place after losing my mother. She recently told me, she wouldnt care if he choked and died but I wonder if that is even true. Even if so, there is another Dave out there who could give her the things I can not - deep intimate conversations and full support and a replacement father for her daughter. *


Fortunately you KNOW that this is not true (about Dave choke/death) -- you heard her fairly recently that she was crushed by not being with him. She is just trying to "distance" herself in YOUR mind from Dave to keep you on the hook.


----------



## jin

I don't understand why you would wait until after the holidays to throw her out. Would make it a miserable Xmas just get it over with now.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> IMO she's addicted to the high she gets from the EAs. According to your posts, this isn't her first emotional affair (EA). Don't beat yourself up over why she can't commit 100%.
> 
> *Are you referring to her admitting that she has had other crushes? She is the type of person who needs to be constantly stimulated. *
> 
> She's broken, selfish and very manipulative.
> 
> If you hadn't pulled away over your mother's death, she would have found or created another excuse to justify her behavior. For example, just like she used your FB vent to justify running back to Dave's house.
> 
> Her statements that: others do it, or it's harmless , or she "needed to feel something" is just her way of shifting blame away from herself (and to continue doing it with other men). That's why she's an unsafe partner.
> 
> *I have to agree.*
> 
> There is nothing you could have done or said to prevent her EA/pursuit of Dave. There wasn't any thing special about Dave either.
> *
> You are likely right. And no, Dave really isn't special at all. *
> 
> She created the fantasy around Dave (and others before Dave) that they have some unique deep soulmate connection in order to make herself feel 'special' and to fill some dark hole inside her self esteem.
> 
> *I always through she had good self esteem but perhaps not. *
> 
> There is no basis in fact for the deep soulmate connection. That's why she never shared the 'deep' conversations with you (the conversations were just hot air about every day things or experiences).
> 
> Did she believe her lies? Yes. But you should not.
> 
> When she says "she needed to feel something" or felt ignored, respond with: That's not an excuse (and walk away).
> 
> *Yes, it isnt an excuse. *
> 
> BTW: eliminating you from activities so she could have access to Dave (without you around) is not consistent with her having any desire for more attention from you. Just the opposite.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> I have no opinion about whether she had sex with Dave. Although her excluding you from activities and spending entire evenings socializing at his house (without you) was setting herself up for the EA to escalate to a PA.
> 
> *True, she put herself in a position that night to have Dave, ask her to come into his bed. That is beyond unnacceptable. You don't spend the night at someone elses house while your partner sleeps alone. *
> 
> Regardless, IMO she's at high risk to eventually cross the line and have sex with an OM. That's why she's not a safe partner.
> 
> *She has used the term. "cross the line" many times in the past to friends. *
> 
> Only she can fix herself (and she's not even close to acknowledging she's unsafe).
> 
> *True*.
> 
> Therefore, you can't argue with a tree, all you can do is protect yourself and exit the relationship.


----------



## wxman3441

jin said:


> I don't understand why you would wait until after the holidays to throw her out. Would make it a miserable Xmas just get it over with now.


I am trying to think of the best interest of the child and not leave her homeless for the holidays.


----------



## Livvie

Since the decision to terminate the relationship was relayed to your girlfriend, has she been working diligently every day to find a new place to move to? If she has time to scroll social media she has time (hours a day perhaps) to be scrolling through apartment listings, messaging landlords, and visiting potential living spaces. Is she doing that? If she's not..... you have a ginormous problem on your hands.


----------



## wxman3441

Livvie said:


> Since the decision to terminate the relationship was relayed to your girlfriend, has she been working diligently every day to find a new place to move to? If she has time to scroll social media she has time (hours a day perhaps) to be scrolling through apartment listings, messaging landlords, and visiting potential living spaces. Is she doing that? If she's not..... you have a ginormous problem on your hands.


*She has teased the idea of remaining in the house and having me turn the mortgage payments over the her. Of course, I will speak with a lawyer first. I am not opposed to the idea because I am not emotionally attached to the house, I just want to make sure I will be properly protected. *


----------



## Livvie

wxman3441 said:


> *She has teased the idea of remaining in the house and having me turn the mortgage payments over the her. Of course, I will speak with a lawyer first. I am not opposed to the idea because I am not emotionally attached to the house, I just want to make sure I will be properly protected. *


So, if mortgages work in Canada anything like they do in the US, she'd need to refinance the mortgage in her name only, thus completely removing you from the mortgage. Do you think she qualifies for a mortgage loan all on her own? This will also take some time. She'll need to work with a bank, provide all sorts of financial documents, and it will probably take a month or two. Has she met with a loan officer to see if she's even remotely qualified for a mortgage loan of that amount? If she has time to go on drumming retreats, she should have had time to already call a mortgage loan officer to look into the possibility. Has she?

This doesn't bode well. I predict she's going to still be there months and months from now.

Unless you move the process along and quit letting her drag her feet.


----------



## Tron

wxman3441 said:


> *She has teased the idea of remaining in the house and having me turn the mortgage payments over the her. Of course, I will speak with a lawyer first. I am not opposed to the idea because I am not emotionally attached to the house, I just want to make sure I will be properly protected. *


Huh? Are you nuts?

In what world is it acceptable to hand your mortgage over to a girlfriend? Much less one who lies and cheats on you? YOU are financially responsible to the bank for that mortgage. You cannot just hand over the payments to her and assume that this previously irresponsible person is going to faithfully pay your mortgage. You put her in a position to be able to ruin your credit.

Alternatives? 

1. She can formally buy the house from you and get her own mortgage. Gonna cost her though. Because why would you simply walk away from it? Don't you have something invested in the home? Would you get something out of it if you sold it to a 3rd party?

2. I do not know why you would want this, but the alternative if you insist on being tied to this horrible person in the future, is to formally lease the home to her. Get it in writing and she sends you a monthly rent check, which you use to pay your mortgage, insurance and taxes. You will continue to pay down your mortgage and increase your equity. This is JMO and a warning...she has an entitlement problem and, if you go that route, she will eventually stiff you on one or more rent payments. Be forewarned.


----------



## SunCMars

What is her plan?

Inwardly, she likely hopes your plans collapse.

Watch her feet, see if they leave scuff marks when she walks.

In the end....

You will go from being the (somewhat) good guy, to the bad guy, to the missed guy.

You now have learned to understand her, keep that to understanding, not to overly accepting and giving her a pass (again).

She needs to face her own demons, on her own.

Do not hate her, just write her off as a lost cause.

She is not yours.


----------



## wxman3441

Tron said:


> Huh? Are you nuts?
> 
> In what world is it acceptable to hand your mortgage over to a girlfriend? Much less one who lies and cheats on you? YOU are financially responsible to the bank for that mortgage. You cannot just hand over the payments to her and assume that this previously irresponsible person is going to faithfully pay your mortgage. You put her in a position to be able to ruin your credit.
> 
> Alternatives?
> 
> 1. She can formally buy the house from you and get her own mortgage. Gonna cost her though. Because why would you simply walk away from it? Don't you have something invested in the home? Would you get something out of it if you sold it to a 3rd party?
> 
> 2. I do not know why you would want this, but the alternative if you insist on being tied to this horrible person in the future, is to formally lease the home to her. Get it in writing and she sends you a monthly rent check, which you use to pay your mortgage, insurance and taxes. You will continue to pay down your mortgage and increase your equity. This is JMO and a warning...she has an entitlement problem and, if you go that route, she will eventually stiff you on one or more rent payments. Be forewarned.


*Trust me, I will not take any actions without speaking with a lawyer and making absolutely sure I will not be on the short end of the stick here. I am not sure she would be able to legally take over the mortgage as her credit is bad. I understand the concerns, but I wont put myself in a position to trust her with finances. She is not great with money and routinely gives money to siblings who use it on beer and drugs. *


----------



## Marc878

wxman3441 said:


> *She has teased the idea of remaining in the house and having me turn the mortgage payments over the her. Of course, I will speak with a lawyer first. I am not opposed to the idea because I am not emotionally attached to the house, I just want to make sure I will be properly protected. *


You’ll live to regret this if you do it. It is your life to waste though.


----------



## Openminded

She‘s supposed to be moving out as soon as possible after Christmas? I don’t know about Canada but these things take a minute in the U.S. And yet it sounds like nothing has been done or is being done to prepare for this beyond some casual talk of possible future actions. She’s driving the bus and you’re just a passenger along for the ride.


----------



## wxman3441

Openminded said:


> She‘s supposed to be moving out as soon as possible after Christmas? I don’t know about Canada but these things take a minute in the U.S. And yet it sounds like nothing has been done or is being done to prepare for this beyond some casual talk of possible future actions. She’s driving the bus and you’re just a passenger along for the ride.


*That's the plan, things will be put into motion right after the holidays. I wont let her win with this one. *


----------



## Robert22205

How are you two interacting now? Just two roommates being civil I hope.

Has she accepted that it's over and stopped talking about it?

Is she now visiting Dave's house?


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> How are you two interacting now? Just two roommates being civil I hope.
> 
> *Yea, we are pretty civil which is good. *
> 
> Has she accepted that it's over and stopped talking about it?
> 
> *It seems that way. She hasn't pushed me about it in a week now. *
> 
> Is she now visiting Dave's house?
> 
> *Not to my knowledge. I don't think she has seen the bestie in quite some time either. She has been off work since last week and is off work until the new year and with me working in the office more often, I suppose she could be going over there then but I don't think she has seen Dave since that night they played poker which was right after we broke up in early November. *


----------



## Andy1001

wxman3441 said:


> *She has teased the idea of remaining in the house and having me turn the mortgage payments over the her. Of course, I will speak with a lawyer first. I am not opposed to the idea because I am not emotionally attached to the house, I just want to make sure I will be properly protected. *


Over a year ago on this thread I described you as a child who finds a hole full of **** but is convinced if he keeps digging he’ll find a pony. 
You’re still digging.


----------



## Robert22205

How will you feel if she goes to another all-night party at Dave's house over the holiday?

Btw: when she disappears all night does that make you the baby sitter?

No contact with Bestie? I thought she couldn't live without regular contact. Was all that just another excuse to keep herself on Dave's radar?

Anyway, take the high road and be kind and generous (especially with gift giving) during the holidays. I suggest you avoid talking about your relationship or the move during the holidays.

If she brings it up, don't take the bait ... defuse it by stating she's raised an important topic but you'd prefer to postpone everything until after the holidays. 

She's very manipulative so don't be surprised if she takes advantage of the holiday mood to love bomb you in an effort to take control.


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> How will you feel if she goes to another all-night party at Dave's house over the holiday?
> *
> To be honest I almost hope she does because I will confirm what I pretty much already know. Interestingly enough, her sister (from another mister, not bio), the one who visited from out of town to hook up with Dave several months back is visiting this weekend so maybe they will all end up there. *
> 
> Btw: when she disappears all night does that make you the baby sitter?
> 
> *Not really, her daughter is 14 and can be left alone now. *
> 
> No contact with Bestie? I thought she couldn't live without regular contact. Was all that just another excuse to keep herself on Dave's radar?
> *
> Possibly, but I don't think they have seen each other in a couple weeks which is odd, especially since she is feeling down. The bestie may just be preoccupied with her partner, the abuser. *
> 
> Anyway, take the high road and be kind and generous (especially with gift giving) during the holidays. I suggest you avoid talking about your relationship or the move during the holidays.
> 
> *Yes I agree.*
> 
> If she brings it up, don't take the bait ... defuse it by stating she's raised an important topic but you'd prefer to postpone everything until after the holidays.
> 
> *Agreed.*
> 
> She's very manipulative so don't be surprised if she takes advantage of the holiday mood to love bomb you in an effort to take control.
> 
> *That may happen. *


----------



## wxman3441

Oddly enough, she never came home last night. Hit the bars with her sister but she wasnt there when I left for work at 730. While she will likely not admit it, I'd say she ended up at Dave's last night.


----------



## Livvie

wxman3441 said:


> Oddly enough, she never came home last night. Hit the bars with her sister but she wasnt there when I left for work at 730. While she will likely not admit it, I'd say she ended up at Dave's last night.


So she went out to bars last night, didn't come home, (stayed out all night on a weeknight) and left you home with her teenager?

All the more reason to keep pressing her that she needs to be out by a certain date. If I were you I'd bring it up every day and ask her what progress she's making finding her new living arrangement.

I'm curious, what does her daughter think about that her mother stayed out all night?


----------



## Robert22205

I'm sorry she decided to destroy your little family's holiday mood/peace by staying out overnight. 

It sounds like she's doubling down on the inappropriate behavior (including staying over night at Dave's house) that makes her an unsafe partner (and undermined your relationship). 

After last summer's emotional affair, it doesn't matter if she slept with Dave last night. She knows disappearing overnight is a kick in the balls, drives you further away from her, and buries the relationship deeper than it needs to be. 

Among other things, she's a poor role model for her teenage daughter.

She takes 'selfish' and lack of empathy for others to a whole new level. 

If she has difficulty finding a place, you should suggest she move over to Dave's house.

IMO, she's twisted the knife multiple times. You truly owe her nothing. Just pay lip service to helping her stay in the house. Focus on getting her out of the house and out of your life.


----------



## wxman3441

Livvie said:


> So she went out to bars last night, didn't come home, (stayed out all night on a weeknight) and left you home with her teenager?
> 
> All the more reason to keep pressing her that she needs to be out by a certain date. If I were you I'd bring it up every day and ask her what progress she's making finding her new living arrangement.
> 
> I'm curious, what does her daughter think about that her mother stayed out all night?


*When I went to work, her daughter was still in bed. So I guess she got the go ahead to ditch school today. She's a really good student so maybe it wont affect her but still. Not sure how she feels about it. Crazy stuff. *


----------



## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> I'm sorry she decided to destroy your little family's holiday mood/peace by staying out overnight.
> 
> *Meh, I am not too upset about it. It just confirms she will never be a safe partner and that I am making the right decision by moving on from her. *
> 
> It sounds like she's doubling down on the inappropriate behavior (including staying over night at Dave's house) that makes her an unsafe partner (and undermined your relationship).
> 
> After last summer's emotional affair, it doesn't matter if she slept with Dave last night. She knows disappearing overnight is a kick in the balls, drives you further away from her, and buries the relationship deeper than it needs to be.
> 
> *This is true. *
> 
> Among other things, she's a poor role model for her teenage daughter.
> 
> *She is not very good right now. *
> 
> She takes 'selfish' and lack of empathy for others to a whole new level.
> 
> If she has difficulty finding a place, you should suggest she move over to Dave's house.
> 
> *True. *
> 
> IMO, she's twisted the knife multiple times. You truly owe her nothing. Just pay lip service to helping her stay in the house. Focus on getting her out of the house and out of your life.
> 
> *I actually have plans with another woman tonight and I think I am going to spend the night there.*


----------



## Evinrude58

See an attorney. Of you can kick her out, get the legal process started. It takes a WHILE to get rid of someone like her, I’m told.


----------



## wxman3441

How lovely. Her daughter just called me, and asked, "Is mom dead? I cant get a hold of her." Still not home at 1pm. Glad I am getting out. 

She will blame this on me no doubt. She will say that since I am blowing up this family, I drove her to drink too much last night.


----------



## wxman3441

Evinrude58 said:


> See an attorney. Of you can kick her out, get the legal process started. It takes a WHILE to get rid of someone like her, I’m told.


Yea I am trying to schedule an appt next week.


----------



## Livvie

wxman3441 said:


> How lovely. Her daughter just called me, and asked, "Is mom dead? I cant get a hold of her." Still not home at 1pm. Glad I am getting out.
> 
> She will blame this on me no doubt. She will say that since I am blowing up this family, I drove her to drink too much last night.


Let it blow right over you if she tries to blame you for her staying out all night (and next day). It's hilarious. Don't give it any credence.


----------



## Openminded

She can attempt to blame you all she wants but you don’t have to listen. If she starts, hold up your hand and say “Stop - not interested”. And mean it.


----------



## Evinrude58

Gotta start detaching and actively starting a new life without her. Once your mind is on other things, and you force your mind to adapt to a new reality without her, indifference will set in. Her shenanigans won’t affect you in any way. Gotta detach and give up hoping though.


----------



## Divinely Favored

wxman3441 said:


> How lovely. Her daughter just called me, and asked, "Is mom dead? I cant get a hold of her." Still not home at 1pm. Glad I am getting out.
> 
> She will blame this on me no doubt. She will say that since I am blowing up this family, I drove her to drink too much last night.


Id say she probably stayed the night at he BF Daves house last night. Might try calling him to see if she is there.


----------



## jlg07

Divinely Favored said:


> Id say she probably stayed the night at he BF Daves house last night. Might try calling him to see if she is there.


Would be a perfect opportunity for you to tell HER daughter WHY you are breaking up -- because of her EA with another man.


----------



## Robert22205

How's it going? Has she returned yet? Why was she unable to return the call from her daughter?

Since her affair last summer, you have provided her with many (many) second chances. 

What you learned is that she blames everyone but herself for her problems ... she can 'white knuckle' for a while - but eventually she makes the decision (or gives herself false excuses) to slide back into behaviors and her 'circle of friends' that blow up her life. 

You can't control or fix her. Just try to defuse her drama until after the holidays. 

She's escalating. Therefore, carry a VAR.


----------



## Livvie

OP what happened with the night (and following day 😮) out?


----------



## wxman3441

Evinrude58 said:


> Gotta start detaching and actively starting a new life without her. Once your mind is on other things, and you force your mind to adapt to a new reality without her, indifference will set in. Her shenanigans won’t affect you in any way. Gotta detach and give up hoping though.


I


Robert22205 said:


> How's it going? Has she returned yet? Why was she unable to return the call from her daughter?
> 
> *She returned home around 1pm. Her daughter was upset with her and her sister but cooled off after. I do not know where she ended up last night. *
> 
> Since her affair last summer, you have provided her with many (many) second chances.
> 
> *Yes. *
> 
> What you learned is that she blames everyone but herself for her problems ... she can 'white knuckle' for a while - but eventually she makes the decision (or gives herself false excuses) to slide back into behaviors and her 'circle of friends' that blow up her life.
> 
> *She is easily led by destructive people. Her "sister" is one of them. She abuses alcohol and drugs and lives a wild lifestyle and when she is in town to visit, get my ex to do the same. *
> 
> You can't control or fix her. Just try to defuse her drama until after the holidays.
> 
> She's escalating. Therefore, carry a VAR.
> 
> I am looking into it.
> 
> *FYI, she was out again last night. This time at least she made it home, but not until 4AM. *


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## Robert22205

She's not a victim of the destructive friends. She's an adult that consistently choses irresponsible destructive behavior (like partying, EAs with OM) vs being a good role model for a teen; or being a safe committed life partner for you.

She's spiraling out of control. Protect yourself with a VAR. Perhaps set up a security camera indoors too.

Her behavior is more evidence that she is not a safe life partner.


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## wxman3441

Robert22205 said:


> She's not a victim of the destructive friends. She's an adult that consistently choses irresponsible destructive behavior (like partying, EAs with OM) vs being a good role model for a teen; or being a safe committed life partner for you.
> 
> *Sadly, she has family members who makes many poor life choices. Her brother was a strain on our relationship for the 2 years he lived with us and he was barely employed and spent many nights partying till 7am as we financed it. *
> 
> She's spiraling out of control. Protect yourself with a VAR. Perhaps set up a security camera indoors too.
> 
> *Yea there is some evidence of that. She even said, tongue in cheek, that she was becoming an alcoholic since she has been drinking a lot. *
> 
> Her behavior is more evidence that she is not a safe life partner.
> 
> *Indeed.*


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## ABHale

wxman3441 said:


> I am trying to think of the best interest of the child and not leave her homeless for the holidays.


I would buy you a beer for this one. 

It’s heart breaking that a mom would put her child through this situation. We know what she has done to your relationship with her. She needs her kicks over her own daughter’s needs.


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## wxman3441

Based on evesdropping on a phone conversation with her bestie last night, I dont think she was at Dave's the night she was out all night. Does not really matter though. I still feel its best to move on. She still things she can control me but showing frustration my me always being on my phone. She recently said, "you must be on a dating app."


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## Robert22205

Just keep smiling and keep the peace until the holidays are over. Then you can bring her back to reality.


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## wxman3441

I agree. Everything is so weird right now with Christmas upon us. She has been sick the past few days. Maybe the partying was too much. 

As an aside, I hooked up with a female I have been friends for a while, the other night. I don’t think I should tell her though.


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## wxman3441

Just wanted to wish everyone on this thread and in this forum a Happy New Year. 

I really appriciate all of the feedback and advice I have recieved over the past year and a half. Even the ones who pretty much called me an idiot - thank you becuase I think it is what i needed. Your comments and concerns are greatly appreciated.


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## Ras

wxman3441 said:


> Ok folks, I am getting prepared to be yelled at. This is a follow up to this post from several weeks back:
> 
> Signs of Cheating?
> 
> So things cooled down but since we haven't been intimate in weeks, I still had a suspicion something was up. I did something that I know was wrong - I went through her phone and found several texts that jumped out. They all occurred around June 10 - at a time where our relationship was seemingly in a better state than it is now (and only a month after I went back to my hometown to spread my mom's ashes after her passing in the Spring). I attached two of the texts. The name has been erased. Basically the guy I had concerns about before came up in the texts. My partner's texts are on the right side of the screen. Seems like my partner did something inappropriate; maybe not hook up with him but mentioned something along the lines of having feelings for him? I found another text (not attached) to someone else around the same time saying something along the lines "doing something stupid".
> 
> Note this was before the incidents which I discussed in the above post. So the question is: Is is clear now something happened? Did they go all the way? We are in counseling now but I feel I should bring this up and make her confess but telling her I went through her phone wont go well.
> 
> I am an idiot, I know.


No your not an idiot I'm going through the same thing at the moment with my husband they if you ask hey have you been unfaithful they aren't going to admit it trust me been there my husband just denies it time and time again.


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## wxman3441

Ras said:


> No your not an idiot I'm going through the same thing at the moment with my husband they if you ask hey have you been unfaithful they aren't going to admit it trust me been there my husband just denies it time and time again.


People who are unfaithful typically will not only deny it, they will start blaming you for it. My ex is not accusing me of cheating when I went to a friends wedding in 2017.


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## Pablosam

So how has the New Year been going for you ? Has she moved out yet ?


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## wxman3441

Pablosam said:


> So how has the New Year been going for you ? Has she moved out yet ?


Not yet, I am meeting with a lawyer tomorrow. She has mentioned wanting to stay there but with the mortgage in my name, I think that would mean I would have to trust that she will pay the mortgage every month. Plus, she wants me to still help chip in for things like insurance and repairs. Doesnt make sense to me. Best to just sell it and go our separate ways.


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## Evinrude58

wxman3441 said:


> Not yet, I am meeting with a lawyer tomorrow. She has mentioned wanting to stay there but with the mortgage in my name, I think that would mean I would have to trust that she will pay the mortgage every month. Plus, she wants me to still help chip in for things like insurance and repairs. Doesnt make sense to me. Best to just sell it and go our separate ways.


Makes perfect sense. As we predicted, she wants to keep you on the hook for financial security and stability while she looks for a new chump to provide for her and gives her some new relationship highs—- and sex.


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## oldtruck

sell the house.
she wants it let her get a loan.
WW can't afford it tell her to have her OM help her out.


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## Livvie

wxman3441 said:


> Not yet, I am meeting with a lawyer tomorrow. She has mentioned wanting to stay there but with the mortgage in my name, I think that would mean I would have to trust that she will pay the mortgage every month. Plus, she wants me to still help chip in for things like insurance and repairs. Doesnt make sense to me. Best to just sell it and go our separate ways.


That's one of the more entitled things I've heard lately.

Can you imagine being in a relationship in the future and having to tell your new partner your credit is tied up in a house you alone are on the hook for mortgage payments for ---and your ex girlfriend lives there right now?


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## Marc878

Next up is “Let’s be Friends“! Bwahahahaha 
This for her so she can feel less guilty. I screwed him over but he’s ok with it because were friends.

if you’re smart you’ll have an iron clad no contact policy in place. If not you’ll just linger In this.


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## wxman3441

Yea she's trying to make me jealous by telling me guys were hitting on her the other night in the bar. 

I talked to a lawyer and she does not suggest letting her stay there with the mortgage in my name. The only options are if she buys directly from me, assuming she passes a credit check, or we sell and go our seperate ways. Selling now would incur a 10K early penalty.


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## Pablosam

wxman3441 said:


> Yea she's trying to make me jealous by telling me guys were hitting on her the other night in the bar.
> 
> I talked to a lawyer and she does not suggest letting her stay there with the mortgage in my name. The only options are if she buys directly from me, assuming she passes a credit check, or we sell and go our seperate ways. Selling now would incur a 10K early penalty.


Why don't you ask her what are her terms on moving out ? If she wants to spend time with other men you are prepared to let her move out.


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## Pablosam

Hey wxman , How is it going ?


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## wxman3441

Pablosam said:


> Hey wxman , How is it going ?


She seems content on just continuing on with life at the house. I have taken the initiative to have three different real estate agents come in and assess the value of the home. The home is valued at the same price I bought it for. So if I were to sell now, I MAY break even. I could keep the house a few years and avoid the bank penalty for selling inside of 5 years. Since the house is in my name, it would make sense for me to try and live there for a while or get a roommate. She has mentioned the idea of continuing to live there with my name on the mortgage and I would still be responsible for home repairs and I would just have to "hope" that she pays the mortgage every month. Since she gives her alcoholic brother money every other week, I'd say that there is a good chance she could miss a payment. The two lawyers I have talked to said don't do it.

So the options are:
1. Sell the house, hope to break even and we go our separate ways
2. Keep the house and I continue to live there (only issue is that it is too much house for just me and I may have trouble with the costs)
3. Keep the house, we go our separate ways, and we rent it out (not sure if this would work, either)


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## shortbus

As you said, 'home value hasn't gone up since you've owned it'. 
THE LAST THING IN THE WORLD YOU WANT IS A SHARED INVESTMENT WITH HER!!
I doubt this value is going to go up anymore till your 5 years is up. This house and the loss for selling early are sunk costs.
You need her out, get a roommate if you need help, probably a ton of divorced guys out there would love to rent a decent room.
'Keep the house and rent it out', is just more keeping her comfortable.
Get a grip man! Your original post is from Oct '19! How's this working out for you? That fence is a pretty narrow seat. Can't believe you've been able to sit on it for this long!
If you had a son, would you recommend to him staying in a position the same as yours? 
Didn't think so.


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## Livvie

No offense, but I knew she wouldn't be leaving after Christmas. It's February.

Do not keep a shared property with her _unless_ you want to be ****ed over by her sometime in the future monetarily, AND if you want no hope of a serious relationship with another woman in the future. No quality woman is going to be okay with you owning a house with your ex girlfriend.


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## shortbus

True dat!


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## Evinrude58

She’s a leech. They don’t just leave in their own. Sell it. I’ve heard heat will make them turn loose. Turn up the heat.
Right now you’re just letting her mooch off you and undoubtedly your feelings for her keep you in this since you see her daily. You have to break away and stop having any contact with her.

If course, she’s still there.


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## Rob_1

Evinrude58 said:


> If course, she’s still there.


What do you mean "if". 
Of course she is still there, and WILL still be there. Do you think this dude will do anything?


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## Evinrude58

Typo. I meant “of”.


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## Pablosam

You are going to have to make the decision for her. She is happy with the way things are and why wouldn't she be ? You have to tell her how things are going to be. Take control ! Stop letting her call the shots.


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## wxman3441

Just wanted to provide an update: We are in talks with a lawyer about the house. We will be hit with a large financial penalty if we sell now but I will likely rent the house to her for a bit with a legal agreement that protects me in every way. I have secured another dwelling for now. I will soon sell the house to her directly once she qualifies or sell it in general if she violates anything I am asking to be put in writing.

This chapter of my life is ending. Its sad, we had many years together but its the right decision. There are many factors at play but I cant get past her falling for another man and admitted her heart broke when they couldn't see each other anymore. I will not tolerate that ever again. She still is going over Dave's house on occasion, even spent the night again recently. Dave is apparently seeing another woman but if she was truly remorseful, she would not want to have anything to do with him. This is the right call. 

And to boot, her slacker brother wants to move in again. Once he provides next to nothing in support, she will truly realize how much I was bringing to the table and will be filled with regret.

Thanks everyone for your support through this whole ordeal. I needed a good kick in the ass.


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## Openminded

Ending a relationship obviously isn’t easy. I hope all goes well for you.


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## Openminded

And when she realizes how difficult life is without you then she’ll likely try again. Don’t.


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