# Why can’t you just forgive....



## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

I am curious when people say this to me...Why can’t you just forgive him...Do people actually forgive and then all the pain disappears? The trust automatically reappears...I can forgive you for driving recklessly and getting us into an accident but should that mean I should hop in the car again? I don’t understand why I am viewed as deficient because of my inability to “truly forgive”. Anyone have insight on this phenomenon?


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## hubbyintrubby (Jul 5, 2019)

I guess it depends on far more than the info we've been given. The severity of whatever it is that you're forgiving, how many times that specific thing has happened and has been forgiven in the past, etc. Some people can forgive easily, others not so much.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

hubbyintrubby said:


> I guess it depends on far more than the info we've been given. The severity of whatever it is that you're forgiving, how many times that specific thing has happened and has been forgiven in the past, etc. Some people can forgive easily, others not so much.


I know I hold grudges...I admit it. 😂 I’m just always perplexed by people who think forgiveness is like a magic wand...


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

IMO forgive is a loosely used word. It’s not something where you say I forgive and It magically happens.

Its more like over a period of time it doesn’t matter anymore. 

People weren't in your shoes going through it were they? So what the hell would they know? I’d question the intelligence or wisdom of those types.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Even when you forgive (some people can and some can’t) you never forget. You shouldn’t. And you definitely don’t trust again the way you did before they cheated. Why would you when you now know what they’re capable of.

I had a family member who asked me that when I was leaving my long marriage. I found it presumptuous on their part then and, years later, I still do. It’s no one’s business what you do or don’t do.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Marc878 said:


> IMO forgive is a loosely used word. It’s not something where you say I forgive and It magically happens.
> 
> Its more like over a period of time it doesn’t matter anymore.
> 
> People weren't in your shoes going through it were they? So what the hell would they know? I’d question the intelligence or wisdom of those types.


Amen...I went to a marriage counselor once who did an ”exercise” with us. She asked me to tell him what I was hurt by. What I wanted to get an apology for...weird all by itself yet I played. After I was done she asked him to apologize, he did. She then looked at me and said today is the day you forgive. Forgive him and move forward. I was like....ummmm....I asked, what do I do when the feelings bubble up? When he is insensitive, doesn’t understand when I trigger...she said and I quote...”You push it down because you have forgiven him”. I was thinking to myself...that’s how people wind up killing themselves. This idea that forgiveness is a magic pill eludes me.


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## hubbyintrubby (Jul 5, 2019)

Torninhalf said:


> Amen...I went to a marriage counselor once who did an ”exercise” with us. She asked me to tell him what I was hurt by. What I wanted to get an apology for...weird all by itself yet I played. After I was done she asked him to apologize, he did. She then looked at me and said today is the day you forgive. Forgive him and move forward. I was like....ummmm....I asked, what do I do when the feelings bubble up? When he is insensitive, doesn’t understand when I trigger...she said and I quote...”You push it down because you have forgiven him”. I was thinking to myself...that’s how people wind up killing themselves. This idea that forgiveness is a magic pill eludes me.


Mind blowing that some people have are allowed to practice therapy when they are giving advice like pushing it down.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

The marriage counselor was wrong. Obviously. That’s not how it works.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Openminded said:


> Even when you forgive (some people can and some can’t) you never forget. You shouldn’t. And you definitely don’t trust again the way you did before they cheated. Why would you when you now know what they’re capable of.
> 
> I had a family member who asked me that when I was leaving my long marriage. I found it presumptuous on their part then and, years later, I still do. It’s no one’s business what you do or don’t do.


I suppose if I explained to these people the true extent of what happened they may be more hesitant to suggest it but you are correct. It is presumptuous!


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

hubbyintrubby said:


> Mind blowing that some people have are allowed to practice therapy when they are giving advice like pushing it down.


First and last appointment with her. 😂 I got in the car when we left and turned to him saying that isn’t how it works...


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Torninhalf said:


> Amen...I went to a marriage counselor once who did an ”exercise” with us. She asked me to tell him what I was hurt by. What I wanted to get an apology for...weird all by itself yet I played. After I was done she asked him to apologize, he did. She then looked at me and said today is the day you forgive. Forgive him and move forward. I was like....ummmm....I asked, what do I do when the feelings bubble up? When he is insensitive, doesn’t understand when I trigger...she said and I quote...”You push it down because you have forgiven him”. I was thinking to myself...that’s how people wind up killing themselves. This idea that forgiveness is a magic pill eludes me.


Nothing new here. A lot of marriage counselors are total ignorant morons who think they are Gods but in reality are snake oil salespersons. You have less than a 50% chance of getting a decent one.

Amazing how many jump into MC looking for magic. Often it isn’t the marriage that’s broken.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Marc878 said:


> Nothing new here. A lot of marriage counselors are total ignorant morons who think they are Gods but in reality are snake oil salespersons. You have less than a 50% chance of getting a decent one.
> 
> Amazing how many jump into MC looking for magic. Often it isn’t the married that’s broken.


She was the second one we went to. The first suggested medication for me. 😂 I didn’t even finish that hour session. You are correct, while the marriage is broken, so is the man.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Absolutely no one has the right to force a forgiveness from you, the parameters of any forgiveness but be set by the person who has been wronged, and one who tells you otherwise are seeking not just cause but compliancy, they are the type of people who don't make waves until it happens to them....nope that is BS, do not allow anyone to set the conditions of forgiveness, reconciliation, or anything else if you are not first and foremost ready yourself.

PS when people do that to you, tell them they are bullying you because in effect that is what they are doing, bullying you into forgiveness.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Lostinthought61 said:


> Absolutely no one has the right to force a forgiveness from you, the parameters of any forgiveness but be set by the person who has been wronged, and one who tells you otherwise are seeking not just cause but compliancy, they are the type of people who don't make waves until it happens to them....nope that is BS, do not allow anyone to set the conditions of forgiveness, reconciliation, or anything else if you are not first and foremost ready yourself.
> 
> PS when people do that to you, tell them they are bullying you because in effect that is what they are doing, bullying you into forgiveness.


I honestly think somethings are unforgivable.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> I am curious when people say this to me...Why can’t you just forgive him...Do people actually forgive and then all the pain disappears? The trust automatically reappears...I can forgive you for driving recklessly and getting us into an accident but should that mean I should hop in the car again? I don’t understand why I am viewed as deficient because of my inability to “truly forgive”. Anyone have insight on this phenomenon?


Anyone talking to you like that is clueless about what they are advising you to do or, are themselves doormat martyrs.

You actually can forgive an adulterer without staying married to them.

I recommend it.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

I always forgive. I can be understanding of another person's feelings and know that no one is "perfect"...and that people make mistakes and poor choices, or they can just act like jerks sometimes...and that they will have regrets. Of course. It's part of being human. And I want to release my heart from any of the negativity that their issues caused for me, and let it go as much as possible for me.

But what I WILL NOT do, is protect the person I forgive from their CONSEQUENCES of their actions and restore things with me to the point they were at before the issue happened.
Neither will I lie and deceive myself about what the issue really means to me or our relationship. ACTIONS mean more to me than WORDS - so when they don't match up, I look at how a person acts to know what they really mean and how they really feel. 

Also, it matters if the same issue comes up over and over, and I have to keep forgiving the same thing...because that MEANS something more than if it only happens once or twice.

YES, I can easily forgive a wrong. But handling the consequences (with me) of the issue being forgiven, and restoring our relationship to where it was before the issue happened is all on THEM.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> I honestly think somethings are unforgivable.


If that is how you feel (and i concur ) then that is your position and anyone who thinks otherwise can feel that way as long as they respect your position. and if that is not to their liking than kick them out of your life. end of story....time to clean house.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Anyone talking to you like that is clueless about what they are advising you to do or, are themselves doormat martyrs.
> 
> You actually can forgive an adulterer without staying married to them.
> 
> I recommend it.


It seems some people believe forgiveness automatically leads to another chance. 😳


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> I always forgive. I can be understanding of another person's feelings and know that no one is "perfect"...and that people make mistakes and poor choices, or they can just act like jerks sometimes...and that they will have regrets. Of course. It's part of being human. And I want to release my heart from any of the negativity that their issues caused for me, and let it go as much as possible for me.
> 
> But what I WILL NOT do, is protect the person I forgive from their CONSEQUENCES of their actions and restore things with me to the point they were at before the issue happened.
> Neither will I lie and deceive myself about what the issue really means to me or our relationship. ACTIONS mean more to me than WORDS - so when they don't match up, I look at how a person acts to know what they really mean and how they really feel.
> ...


It’s the over and over part that has me in its grips. The trickle truth, the I swear on my kids eyes, I am being honest, I’ll never lie again. To me that is the part I can’t forgive...


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Lostinthought61 said:


> If that is how you feel (and i concur ) then that is your position and anyone who thinks otherwise can feel that way as long as they respect your position. and if that is not to their liking than kick them out of your life. end of story....time to clean house.


Sometimes people make me feel like I am deficient. Trying to explain to them is futile.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> YES, I can easily forgive a wrong. But handling the consequences (with me) of the issue being forgiven, and restoring our relationship to where it was before the issue happened is all on THEM.


With me, there will be no restoration. 



Torninhalf said:


> Trying to explain to them is futile.


I don't have anything to explain. It's just none of their business. It's between me and God. ONLY.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> I am curious when people say this to me...Why can’t you just forgive him...Do people actually forgive and then all the pain disappears? The trust automatically reappears...I can forgive you for driving recklessly and getting us into an accident but should that mean I should hop in the car again? I don’t understand why I am viewed as deficient because of my inability to “truly forgive”. Anyone have insight on this phenomenon?


I am curious who is saying this, what are they expecting?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

forgiving is a godly attribute, it's not supposed to be easy.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> Amen...I went to a marriage counselor once who did an ”exercise” with us. She asked me to tell him what I was hurt by. What I wanted to get an apology for...weird all by itself yet I played. After I was done she asked him to apologize, he did. She then looked at me and said today is the day you forgive. Forgive him and move forward. I was like....ummmm....I asked, what do I do when the feelings bubble up? When he is insensitive, doesn’t understand when I trigger...she said and I quote...”You push it down because you have forgiven him”. I was thinking to myself...that’s how people wind up killing themselves. This idea that forgiveness is a magic pill eludes me.


And then you fired this person right?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Torninhalf said:


> Sometimes people make me feel like I am deficient. Trying to explain to them is futile.


People like that you put on ignore.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> Sometimes people make me feel like I am deficient. Trying to explain to them is futile.


Try to forgive them - 

That would be my response - I know you feel that way and I forgive you for your arrogance, but you should never say that again to me.

A polite **** off is a useful skill to develop.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> It seems some people believe forgiveness automatically leads to another chance. 😳


Some people believe they are farm animals. I don't make a habit of talking to them and certainly not listening to their advice.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Yeah it doesn't work that way. It's not some magical phrase that you just say then all is well. That marriage counselor is an idiot. 

There is no timeline for forgiveness, some days are easier than others, and reaching that point doesn't mean it stops hurting entirely or that you now trust them. 

Trusting them again comes from their actions and them earning your trust back, not you forgiving them. I trust my wife more than I thought I'd be able to, and yes some of that is work I had to do but a lot of it is the work she's done. Sometimes you never trust them again, even if they do everything right, and that's okay. You can forgive someone and never allow them to be in a position to hurt you again. I chose to reconcile so rebuilding trust is a must. 

It took 23 months for "I forgive her" to slip out of my mouth. That was in October and I haven't said it since. I often think it, but I guess admitting it (even to myself) is the hard part. That doesn't mean the past doesn't still hurt, it does, but it hurts differently and affects me less.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

sokillme said:


> I am curious who is saying this, what are they expecting?


Various people over the last couple of years. They are clearly expecting me to forgive and simply carry on as if there was no betrayal.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Some people believe they are farm animals. I don't make a habit of talking to them and certainly not listening to their advice.


😂😂😂😂


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

bobert said:


> Yeah it doesn't work that way. It's not some magical phrase that you just say then all is well. That marriage counselor is an idiot.
> 
> There is no timeline for forgiveness, some days are easier than others, and reaching that point doesn't mean it stops hurting entirely or that you now trust them.
> 
> ...


Will you ever really trust your wife again?


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

sokillme said:


> And then you fired this person right?


Yes...she was a one session and done. 😂


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

sokillme said:


> Try to forgive them -
> 
> That would be my response - I know you feel that way and I forgive you for your arrogance, but you should never say that again to me.
> 
> A polite **** off is a useful skill to develop.


Clearly I am going to have to master that skill. 😂


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Torninhalf said:


> It seems some people believe forgiveness automatically leads to another chance. 😳


My way of "forgiving" was to divorce him. I put it in quotes because I don't forgive him for the awful way I was treated. I get annoyed when people push "forgiveness". I understand everyone is flawed, but that doesn't mean I have to forgive terrible treatment by someone. It might depend on the circumstances. There are some things I have forgiven in my life, and some things I won't. I think it depends on the situation and how much awareness and intent the person had in their offense. And if they are sorry for it.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Torninhalf said:


> Amen...I went to a marriage counselor once who did an ”exercise” with us. She asked me to tell him what I was hurt by. What I wanted to get an apology for...weird all by itself yet I played. After I was done she asked him to apologize, he did. She then looked at me and said today is the day you forgive. Forgive him and move forward. I was like....ummmm....I asked, what do I do when the feelings bubble up? When he is insensitive, doesn’t understand when I trigger...she said and I quote...”You push it down because you have forgiven him”. I was thinking to myself...that’s how people wind up killing themselves. This idea that forgiveness is a magic pill eludes me.


I don't think betrayal and deception are often "cured" by the offending partner admitting what went on, saying they were sorry, or you forgiving them. What you may be looking for is something very different- your partner understanding your pain. Not just accepting that you have it (although that by itself is a tough ask for many), but feeling deep down what it feels like to be you, what betrayal is, to you, and feeling the torture inside that is... you. It's not about revenge. People get confused by that. It's about understanding that it's not all about them, what they did. Perhaps it's about the idea that you wouldn't have married someone who could act so cavalierly about such things, so it's causing you to have to rewrite your expectations, your life. More so than it requires for the offending partner.

The betraying spouse likely has a strong self-protection mechanism that won't allow him or her to want to acknowledge and relate to the pain they caused because... it's painful. Because it gets in the way of their everyday life. Because they're wanting to protect themselves more than they want to be with you. And by "be with you" I mean totally, not just stay married, not just feel bad for what they did, but own their part of the marriage, the part that helped create who you are today.


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## colingrant (Nov 6, 2017)

Torninhalf said:


> I am curious when people say this to me...Why can’t you just forgive him...Do people actually forgive and then all the pain disappears? The trust automatically reappears...I can forgive you for driving recklessly and getting us into an accident but should that mean I should hop in the car again? I don’t understand why I am viewed as deficient because of my inability to “truly forgive”. Anyone have insight on this phenomenon?


One question and one thought. 

1) Have the ones asking experienced betrayal?

2) Are they using "forgive" synonymously with reconciling, not being mad, triggering, etc. One can forgive and not reconcile. If reconciling, forgiving does not preclude the forgiver from feeling anger, anxieties or achieving acceptance and eternal peace. It may reduce the anger and anxieties but not eliminate them necessarily. It may improve or hasten one's ability to accept and experience peace, but forgiving will not necessarily ensure it.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

To blindly forgive and have expectations that all is well is completely backwards.

not dealing with what’s real is bound to make anyone physically sick and emotionally stunted.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Torninhalf said:


> Will you ever really trust your wife again?


In short, yes. 

The trust won't ever be the same, though. Now I know what she (or anyone else) is capable of so I will never say never but do I think she will cheat again? It's a very hesitant "no". I wouldn't be with her if my answer was "yes" but I am still afraid of being hurt again or being a fool. The trust is a work in progress, and I've been working at it a lot lately, but it doesn't come all at once. Sometimes, at first, it doesn't even make sense why I can trust her with certain things but not others. That takes more introspection. 

I don't think I have ever had someone tell me to get over it already or just forgive her. Instead, if I show any sign of trusting her I get told I'm an idiot. So there's no winning.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> I am curious when people say this to me...Why can’t you just forgive him...Do people actually forgive and then all the pain disappears? The trust automatically reappears...I can forgive you for driving recklessly and getting us into an accident but should that mean I should hop in the car again? I don’t understand why I am viewed as deficient because of my inability to “truly forgive”. Anyone have insight on this phenomenon?


Forgiveness isnt a feeling but a decision. It can take a very long time, but yes once you have forgven there will often be a peace and a sense of release of the anger and bitterness. As for the trust, well as long as the one who hurt you is completely repentant, trust can be improved over time. Remember though that forgiving someone doesn't have to mean reconciliation.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Livvie said:


> My way of "forgiving" was to divorce him. I put it in quotes because I don't forgive him for the awful way I was treated. I get annoyed when people push "forgiveness". I understand everyone is flawed, but that doesn't mean I have to forgive terrible treatment by someone. It might depend on the circumstances. There are some things I have forgiven in my life, and some things I won't. I think it depends on the situation and how much awareness and intent the person had in their offense. And if they are sorry for it.


I agree. Parts I forgive but other parts I just can’t. I think some people think I just won’t. There is a difference.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Casual Observer said:


> I don't think betrayal and deception are often "cured" by the offending partner admitting what went on, saying they were sorry, or you forgiving them. What you may be looking for is something very different- your partner understanding your pain. Not just accepting that you have it (although that by itself is a tough ask for many), but feeling deep down what it feels like to be you, what betrayal is, to you, and feeling the torture inside that is... you. It's not about revenge. People get confused by that. It's about understanding that it's not all about them, what they did. Perhaps it's about the idea that you wouldn't have married someone who could act so cavalierly about such things, so it's causing you to have to rewrite your expectations, your life. More so than it requires for the offending partner.
> 
> The betraying spouse likely has a strong self-protection mechanism that won't allow him or her to want to acknowledge and relate to the pain they caused because... it's painful. Because it gets in the way of their everyday life. Because they're wanting to protect themselves more than they want to be with you. And by "be with you" I mean totally, not just stay married, not just feel bad for what they did, but own their part of the marriage, the part that helped create who you are today.


Bottom line is that exactly. He always wanted to protect himself more than help me heal.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

colingrant said:


> One question and one thought.
> 
> 1) Have the ones asking experienced betrayal?
> 
> 2) Are they using "forgive" synonymously with reconciling, not being mad, triggering, etc. One can forgive and not reconcile. If reconciling, forgiving does not preclude the forgiver from feeling anger, anxieties or achieving acceptance and eternal peace. It may reduce the anger and anxieties but not eliminate them necessarily. It may improve or hasten one's ability to accept and experience peace, but forgiving will not necessarily ensure it.


I just think throw the word forgiveness around cause it sounds good. Shows they are good people because of course they would forgive...😏😳


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Beach123 said:


> To blindly forgive and have expectations that all is well is completely backwards.
> 
> not dealing with what’s real is bound to make anyone physically sick and emotionally stunted.


Well I have a master rug sweeper from a long line of rug sweepers.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Livvie said:


> My way of "forgiving" was to divorce him. I put it in quotes because I don't forgive him for the awful way I was treated. I get annoyed when people push "forgiveness". I understand everyone is flawed, but that doesn't mean I have to forgive terrible treatment by someone. It might depend on the circumstances. There are some things I have forgiven in my life, and some things I won't. I think it depends on the situation and how much awareness and intent the person had in their offense. And if they are sorry for it.


As I see it forgiveness is for our own benefit not theirs. If we hold onto bitterness and resentment it will make us ill mentally and physically. Whether they are sorry or not doesnt change the fact that forgiveness is for our own good not theirs. I know people who have forgiven the most awful things such as child sexual abuse, and its truly changed their lives to let it go.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

bobert said:


> In short, yes.
> 
> The trust won't ever be the same, though. Now I know what she (or anyone else) is capable of so I will never say never but do I think she will cheat again? It's a very hesitant "no". I wouldn't be with her if my answer was "yes" but I am still afraid of being hurt again or being a fool. The trust is a work in progress, and I've been working at it a lot lately, but it doesn't come all at once. Sometimes, at first, it doesn't even make sense why I can trust her with certain things but not others. That takes more introspection.
> 
> I don't think I have ever had someone tell me to get over it already or just forgive her. Instead, if I show any sign of trusting her I get told I'm an idiot. So there's no winning.


It seems there is no winning. Damned if you do damned if you don’t.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> As I see it forgiveness is for our own benefit not theirs. If we hold onto bitterness and resentment it will make us ill mentally and physically. Whether they are sorry or not doesnt change the fact that forgiveness is for our own good not theirs. I know people who have forgiven the most awful things such as child sexual abuse, and its truly changed their lives to let it go.


In theory that sounds good but I’m just not sure it always works out that way. I’m working on it though 😂


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> As I see it forgiveness is for our own benefit not theirs. If we hold onto bitterness and resentment it will make us ill mentally and physically. Whether they are sorry or not doesnt change the fact that forgiveness is for our own good not theirs. I know people who have forgiven the most awful things such as child sexual abuse, and its truly changed their lives to let it go.





Torninhalf said:


> In theory that sounds good but I’m just not sure it always works out that way. I’m working on it though 😂


Barbara Wilson says that forgiveness is only part of the journey, and the beginning of the real work you must do with yourself. It is not the "everything" that many people want to believe. It is not the "everything" biblically either. It can be a beginning but it is not, absolutely not, the end of what forgiveness is needed for. You do not get to stop thinking about your past; forgiveness largely requires owning it. You don't move on; you move with. The Invisible Bond: How to Break Free from Your Sexual Past - Kindle edition by Wilson, Barbara. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

This isn't a popular notion with therapists, who often want you to "move on" from what's bothering you, "move on" from your past, whether you're the betrayed or offending party.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> I am curious when people say this to me...Why can’t you just forgive him...Do people actually forgive and then all the pain disappears? The trust automatically reappears...I can forgive you for driving recklessly and getting us into an accident but should that mean I should hop in the car again? I don’t understand why I am viewed as deficient because of my inability to “truly forgive”. Anyone have insight on this phenomenon?


What they are REALLY saying is “Your immense pain makes me uncomfortable.” 

You learn what kind of friends you have when you get cheated on. They run like cockroaches in the light, or they sit and witness your pain with no judgement and no instructions on how you should feel. 

Apparently death and cheating bring out people’s true self. I’ve had to reevaluate most all of my friendships in the last 8 months because of this. Not even speaking of the ones that knew about the cheating and chose to ‘look the other way’.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Casual Observer said:


> Barbara Wilson says that forgiveness is only part of the journey, and the beginning of the real work you must do with yourself. It is not the "everything" that many people want to believe. It is not the "everything" biblically either. It can be a beginning but it is not, absolutely not, the end of what forgiveness is needed for. You do not get to stop thinking about your past; forgiveness largely requires owning it. You don't move on; you move with. The Invisible Bond: How to Break Free from Your Sexual Past - Kindle edition by Wilson, Barbara. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.


Thanks for the link...You don’t move on; you move with. I think that is spot on. I believe mental injuries are as hard as physical injuries. When one loses a limb one has to relearn multitudes of things, adapt and move with the injury. I believe some emotional scars are the same.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> What they are REALLY saying is “Your immense pain makes me uncomfortable.”
> 
> You learn what kind of friends you have when you get cheated on. They run like cockroaches in the light, or they sit and witness your pain with no judgement and no instructions on how you should feel.
> 
> Apparently death and cheating bring out people’s true self. I’ve had to reevaluate most all of my friendships in the last 8 months because of this. Not even speaking of the ones that knew about the cheating and chose to ‘look the other way’.


I’m sorry for that. I feel you. We had a mutual friend for 37 years that said they just didn’t want to get involved. Not even listening or lending an ear. It was horrifying. I was there when their children were born, surgeries, death of parents etc.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> I’m sorry for that. I feel you. We had a mutual friend for 37 years that said they just didn’t want to get involved. Not even listening or lending an ear. It was horrifying. I was there when their children were born, surgeries, death of parents etc.


Well, it was extremely hurtful at first, now I’m grateful. I cut these people and will be more discerning in the future. Anyone who thinks cheating is not their business or no biggie can suck it.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> Well, it was extremely hurtful at first, now I’m grateful. I cut these people and will be more discerning in the future. Anyone who thinks cheating is not their business or no biggie can suck it.


It’s so weird. My son got into an accident a couple of years after the affair came out and people wanted every single detail of what happened, his injuries etc. My “accident”, my injuries from my husbands behavior were just of no interest. People are simple bizarre. 😂🤷🏼‍♀️


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> Sometimes people make me feel like I am deficient. Trying to explain to them is futile.


some times you can't fix stupid...just walk away


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

bobert said:


> I don't think I have ever had someone tell me to get over it already or just forgive her. *Instead, if I show any sign of trusting her I get told I'm an idiot.* So there's no winning.


That’s often the result of exposure. Family and friends tend not to be forgiving because they don’t have the emotional investment that you do. I didn’t expose when I reconciled for that reason. I knew everyone who cared about me wouldn’t forgive my husband — and my situation was nowhere as bad as yours. Maybe at some point in the future your wife will be accepted by family and friends the way she once was but my guess is not anytime soon. In the meantime, don’t over share with them.


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## marko polo (Jan 26, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> What they are REALLY saying is “Your immense pain makes me uncomfortable.”
> 
> You learn what kind of friends you have when you get cheated on. They run like cockroaches in the light, or they sit and witness your pain with no judgement and no instructions on how you should feel.
> 
> Apparently death and cheating bring out people’s true self. I’ve had to reevaluate most all of my friendships in the last 8 months because of this. Not even speaking of the ones that knew about the cheating and chose to ‘look the other way’.


This is the truth about friends. You will see who your friends are when you suffer a personal crisis such as divorce. In my own case my "friends" were the fair weather variety and scattered like mice when my marriage ended. When people like this depart your life let them go and keep them out.

Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. It means letting go of the hurt and hate and all the baggage that came with it. Detachment from your betrayer(s). Unfortunately this doesn't happen overnight. Forgiveness does not obligate you to have anything to do with your betrayer(s) or even like them. Just means you don't waste any further time or energy on them once they have gone or you have left them behind.

I have forgiven those that have betrayed me down the years, even my ex wife. I haven't seen or spoken to her in more than 20 years. She is at best a faded memory. I can remember all the trouble she stirred and all the games she played but I am not triggered or affected by these past events. The fair weather friends are distant memories too.

Have respect for yourself. Walkaway at the first sign of disrespect or betrayal.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> It’s so weird. My son got into an accident a couple of years after the affair came out and people wanted every single detail of what happened, his injuries etc. My “accident”, my injuries from my husbands behavior were just of no interest. People are simple bizarre. 😂🤷🏼‍♀️


Very, I will never understand it. I chalk it up to most people being completely emotionally unhealthy and refusing to feel. Including my WH. 

I can’t figure out if most people are just like this, or if I’m some kind of a magnet for the emotionally stunted.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

marko polo said:


> This is the truth about friends. You will see who your friends are when you suffer a personal crisis such as divorce. In my own case my "friends" were the fair weather variety and scattered like mice when my marriage ended. When people like this depart your life let them go and keep them out.
> 
> Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. It means letting go of the hurt and hate and all the baggage that came with it. Detachment from your betrayer(s). Unfortunately this doesn't happen overnight. Forgiveness does not obligate you to have anything to do with your betrayer(s) or even like them. Just means you don't waste any further time or energy on them once they have gone or you have left them behind.
> 
> ...


Looks like I will have to create an entire new life. Nothing will be spared from this. 
I long for the day I won’t be triggered in some way shape or form. I happy for you!


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> Very, I will never understand it. I chalk it up to most people being completely emotionally unhealthy and refusing to feel. Including my WH.
> 
> I can’t figure out if most people are just like this, or if I’m some kind of a magnet for the emotionally stunted.


If there is a club for being a magnet we can join together...😏


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## marko polo (Jan 26, 2021)

Torninhalf said:


> Looks like I will have to create an entire new life. Nothing will be spared from this.
> I long for the day I won’t be triggered in some way shape or form. I happy for you!


This exactly. You will have to create an entirely new life. A life for one - you. Others that wish to be a part of this new life must earn their place in it, do not allow them automatic entry. Will it be easy? No. Not in the least. It will take several years. Have no doubt you also will find detachment from this trauma but you must grow and channel your energy and pain into new pursuits to fill the void of what you have lost. 

Focus on yourself and any goals you set to get you where you want to be down the road. Survive each day as it comes for there will still be many more dark days where you will not be able to shut out the anger and disappointment of how you have been treated. Use the anger for what it most useful for - motivation to do better for yourself. 

Do not fear being alone during this time. With respect your judgment will be compromised as far as choosing friends or romantic partners. Do you have to go the way of the hermit? Be antisocial or rude? No. You should still interact and find happiness where you can but offer no commitment and prioritize no other interests above your own. 

When will you be ready to let others in? I cannot answer that for you but I will share when I was ready to be my old self. When I could walkaway from anyone that disrespected me or betrayed me. I entertained no excuses for poor behavior and offered no second chances.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Openminded said:


> That’s often the result of exposure. Family and friends tend not to be forgiving because they don’t have the emotional investment that you do. I didn’t expose when I reconciled for that reason. I knew everyone who cared about me wouldn’t forgive my husband — and my situation was nowhere as bad as yours. Maybe at some point in the future your wife will be accepted by family and friends the way she once was but my guess is not anytime soon. In the meantime, don’t over share with them.


I understand why people want to expose, and why it's needed sometimes, but it complicates things and makes it harder to move forward. If someone thinks they may want to reconcile, I'd have a hard time recommending exposing to more people than necessary.

Having friends who will let you vent, etc. are great... until you decide to reconcile. They keep on hating your spouse and are no longer someone you can talk to because they will make you second guess everything. I have something going on right now that I'm avoiding sharing with anyone because I don't need to hear it from them, let their negativity affect me, or give them something to run with. So I only share what I absolutely have to. And the ones who were the best to vent to are the ones who were later cut out because of the way they treated my wife and wouldn't drop it with me.

Family is even worse. I don't talk to most of my family anymore, including my parents. My parents haven't even met my two month old baby because they (mostly my mom) can't act like civilized humans around my wife or accept my choice. Of course, cutting them out just adds to it because they are sure my wife is a horrible, manipulative person who is isolating me and I'm too big of an idiot to see it. In reality, they did that to themselves but they refuse to see it that way.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

marko polo said:


> This exactly. You will have to create an entirely new life. A life for one - you. Others that wish to be a part of this new life must earn their place in it, do not allow them automatic entry. Will it be easy? No. Not in the least. It will take several years. Have no doubt you also will find detachment from this trauma but you must grow and channel your energy and pain into new pursuits to fill the void of what you have lost.
> 
> Focus on yourself and any goals you set to get you where you want to be down the road. Survive each day as it comes for there will still be many more dark days where you will not be able to shut out the anger and disappointment of how you have been treated. Use the anger for what it most useful for - motivation to do better for yourself.
> 
> ...


Your comment really touched me. Thank you. It’s been so long since I have even seen my old self. Not sure I would even recognize her. The pain has changed me.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> Well, it was extremely hurtful at first, now I’m grateful. I cut these people and will be more discerning in the future. Anyone who thinks cheating is not their business or no biggie can suck it.


I had to cut out a number of mutual friends who felt I should just forgive and forget because “it happens to everyone at some point” (news to me). Some were couples we had known for decades and in the beginning it was difficult. Now I would say that my life is much better without them.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

bobert said:


> I understand why people want to expose, and why it's needed sometimes, but it complicates things and makes it harder to move forward. If someone thinks they may want to reconcile, I'd have a hard time recommending exposing to more people than necessary.
> 
> Having friends who will let you vent, etc. are great... until you decide to reconcile. They keep on hating your spouse and are no longer someone you can talk to because they will make you second guess everything. I have something going on right now that I'm avoiding sharing with anyone because I don't need to hear it from them, let their negativity affect me, or give them something to run with. So I only share what I absolutely have to. And the ones who were the best to vent to are the ones who were later cut out because of the way they treated my wife and wouldn't drop it with me.
> 
> Family is even worse. I don't talk to most of my family anymore, including my parents. My parents haven't even met my two month old baby because they (mostly my mom) can't act like civilized humans around my wife or accept my choice. Of course, cutting them out just adds to it because they are sure my wife is a horrible, manipulative person who is isolating me and I'm too big of an idiot to see it. In reality, they did that to themselves but they refuse to see it that way.


I totally understand. I’m sorry you have that to deal with along with everything else.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> I am curious when people say this to me...Why can’t you just forgive him...Do people actually forgive and then all the pain disappears? The trust automatically reappears...I can forgive you for driving recklessly and getting us into an accident but should that mean I should hop in the car again? I don’t understand why I am viewed as deficient because of my inability to “truly forgive”. Anyone have insight on this phenomenon?


It sounds like you're getting bad advice from those people. It's healthier to have boundaries and avoid people who get you in trouble and hurt you. Those people must just want you to be as miserable as they are.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I'm sorry with what you're going through. I think you do have to forgive for your own health, sanity, and sense of peace. That may not always be possible via natural means but God ultimately can do anything he wants with us. There is some peace by just announcing "God I don't understand but I give this to you." or "Jesus, I unite my suffering with yours on the cross". I was told once to pray for forgetfulness. You know what, it partially worked because I don't fully feel the pain I once did. It's probably foolish to think the pain can ever go away in this life, however the anger and bitterness probably will and should go away.

Even the most horrible betrayal is ultimately a blessing because the light came in and dispelled the darkness. Sometimes our realization of the truth of our relationship with someone is very devastating. But ultimately we all want truth- right? If we don't have truth, then we are just living a lie. I can't help but think in the midst of devastating trauma/betrayal that God _still _has something better planned for us ahead.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> I'm sorry with what you're going through. I think you do have to forgive for your own health, sanity, and sense of peace. That may not always be possible via natural means but God ultimately can do anything he wants with us. There is some peace by just announcing "God I don't understand but I give this to you." or "Jesus, I unite my suffering with yours on the cross". I was told once to pray for forgetfulness. You know what, it partially worked because I don't fully feel the pain I once did. It's probably foolish to think the pain can ever go away in this life, however the anger and bitterness probably will and should go away.
> 
> Even the most horrible betrayal is ultimately a blessing because the light came in and dispelled the darkness. Sometimes our realization of the truth of our relationship with someone is very devastating. But ultimately we all want truth- right? If we don't have truth, then we are just living a lie. I can't help but think in the midst of devastating trauma/betrayal that God _still _has something better planned for us ahead.


I appreciate your view point but I’m not someone who believes in deities. 🤷🏼‍♀️


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> I am curious when people say this to me...Why can’t you just forgive him...Do people actually forgive and then all the pain disappears? The trust automatically reappears...I can forgive you for driving recklessly and getting us into an accident but should that mean I should hop in the car again? I don’t understand why I am viewed as deficient because of my inability to “truly forgive”. Anyone have insight on this phenomenon?


Only you can determine when, if, and how you forgive; and when, if, and how you forget.

Not your friends, your family, strangers online, and certainly not him.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Only you can determine when, if, and how you forgive; and when, if, and how you forget.
> 
> Not your friends, your family, strangers online, and certainly not him.


I’ll never forget. that will never happen.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> I’ll never forget. that will never happen.


Forgiving doesnt mean you forget, it just means that what happened no longer has the power to damage you and hurt you. It no longer controls you.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Forgiving doesnt mean you forget, it just means that what happened no longer has the power to damage you and hurt you. It no longer controls you.


I injured my hip years ago as a young teenager. Gymnastics 😂 Still to this day when it rains or I sit with my leg under me it aches. I think what has happened to me emotionally and mentally will be the same.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> I injured my hip years ago as a young teenager. Gymnastics 😂 Still to this day when it rains or I sit with my leg under me it aches. I think what has happened to me emotionally and mentally will be the same.


Yes I can relate. While I have forgiven the people in my life who really hurt and damaged me, there will always be a scar and a sadness, but the anger and bitterness and things that would cause harm to me now aren't there.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Why is that (rhetorical)? Maybe the good God wants you for something better (rhetorical)?


By rhetorical I assume you don’t want an answer? 😂


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> Amen...I went to a marriage counselor once who did an ”exercise” with us. She asked me to tell him what I was hurt by. What I wanted to get an apology for...weird all by itself yet I played. After I was done she asked him to apologize, he did. She then looked at me and said today is the day you forgive. Forgive him and move forward. I was like....ummmm....I asked, what do I do when the feelings bubble up? When he is insensitive, doesn’t understand when I trigger...she said and I quote...”You push it down because you have forgiven him”. I was thinking to myself...that’s how people wind up killing themselves. This idea that forgiveness is a magic pill eludes me.


Was the counselor smoking pot as well?

What an idiot, they come up with the stupidest things to say.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> Various people over the last couple of years. They are clearly expecting me to forgive and simply carry on as if there was no betrayal.


So given your story I suggest you master the art of not giving a ****. Have your own set of standards, try to be a good person and then don't worry about the rest. Honestly if you can get to forgiveness than that will be good for you, but that doesn't mean forget or that you have to see your husband again or whoever it is. And that is something people work towards, when you are ready. 

Also you really MUST learn how to say **** off in a nice way. If you are southern, "bless your heart" seems to be a old stander. Here on the east cost we just say oh **** off or go **** yourself. Now you can say it nicely too if you want. 

I suspect that you rug-swept as you put it because confrontation is very hard for you, but how has that served you? You are doing the same here right? I suspect you are afraid if you tell people to stop they will abandon you or you won't be worthy. I bet that is not the case but even if it is then you need a different set of friends.

The truth is after a while you can get to the point where being assertive is actually enjoyable. You just need practice. 

Find your courage, be nice but be firm.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

What people usually mean when they say this is that your pain is too inconvenient for them.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

sokillme said:


> So given your story I suggest you master the art of not giving a ****. Have your own set of standards, try to be a good person and then don't worry about the rest. Honestly if you can get to forgiveness than that will be good for you, but that doesn't mean forget or that you have to see your husband again or whoever it is. And that is something people work towards, when you are ready.
> 
> Also you really MUST learn how to say *** off in a nice way. If you are southern, "bless your heart" seems to be a old stander. Here on the east cost we just say oh *** off or go **** yourself. Now you can say it nicely too if you want.
> 
> ...


Well I’m a NY’er transplanted in the South...😂 I’d love to find a happy medium between the f-off and the bless your heart. I consider myself assertive to be honest. I’m pretty straight forward.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

joannacroc said:


> What people usually mean when they say this is that your pain is too inconvenient for them.


Sure seems that way. 😳


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

You may finish this with a smaller circle of friends, but they will be true friends. For me, because I didn't expose to anyone other than my family and some of the friends who were my closest oldest friends, our mutual friends I assume believed whatever line of BS my XH told them and a few I saw socially for a bit, but the rest evaporated. It's part of divorce that made me the saddest - losing friends. But my true friends, who I had known for a long time, were there for me, even when I was going through some S*)&. They were kind and accepting and did whatever they could to help. That was a joy. Eventually you come to the realization that the people who aren't really you friends not being your friends anymore are no great loss.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

joannacroc said:


> You may finish this with a smaller circle of friends, but they will be true friends. For me, because I didn't expose to anyone other than my family and some of the friends who were my closest oldest friends, our mutual friends I assume believed whatever line of BS my XH told them and a few I saw socially for a bit, but the rest evaporated. It's part of divorce that made me the saddest - losing friends. But my true friends, who I had known for a long time, were there for me, even when I was going through some S*)&. They were kind and accepting and did whatever they could to help. That was a joy. Eventually you come to the realization that the people who aren't really you friends not being your friends anymore are no great loss.


Seems to be going along those lines...I’m getting use to the idea that my own company is going to have to suffice.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> Bottom line is that exactly. He always wanted to protect himself more than help me heal.



To me this is the cruxt of it.

You and I are soul sisters.....I see myself in the way you describe yourself. I get the grudges thing because I'm like that too.

My ex also cared far more about avoiding discomfort and image management then my pain. I was supposed to accept his half assed apology, paint a phony smile on my face, and never bring it up again.

And my ex didn't do half of what yours did, or at least if he did I never had proof. Ironically, I only really had proof of a low level inappropriate relationship and perhaps emotional affair, but he lied about absolutely everything and changed his story based on what he realized I knew.

At one point he slipped that when I first asked if he'd kept in contact with any of his exes his first thought was "oh God, what does she know?". That and the lying tells me there's more that I don't know about.

It was his handling of things once I found out that sealed the fate of the marriage. I knew I had someone that I could never be vulnerable with...someone I could never look to for support. Once that happens you don't have a marriage.

I forgive my ex in that I'm not pissed off and I wish him the best, but there's no way in hell I'd be married to him. I couldn't trust him and I knew that he didn't have my back.

That's what you have and you'll be much happier without it.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> To me this is the cruxt of it.
> 
> You and I are soul sisters.....I see myself in the way you describe yourself. I get the grudges thing because I'm like that too.
> 
> ...


The not having my back has been the soul crushing part...I so identify. That’s all as wanted. Just someone who won’t push me out of the way to get out of a burning building...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> Well I’m a NY’er transplanted in the South...😂 I’d love to find a happy medium between the f-off and the bless your heart. I consider myself assertive to be honest. I’m pretty straight forward.


**** of dear?


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

sokillme said:


> **** of dear?


I like that 😂


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Torninhalf said:


> The not having my back has been the soul crushing part...I so identify. That’s all as wanted. Just someone who won’t push me out of the way to get out of a burning building...


Yeah, when the person who is supposed to have your back and protect you against all attackers is the one stabbing you in the back, then saying "what? I'm not stabbing you" when they have a bloody knife in their hands, how can you be expected to forgive that?

I couldn't forgive someone who wasn't remorseful. Someone who, in fact, KEPT stabbing me. People need to be held accountable, then demonstrate remorse and make amends, then MAYBE forgiveness becomes a possibility.

I know religious people think of it differently, but to me, forgiveness is like a pardon that erases the criminal record. Why would I pardon someone who hasn't earned it, and never will? But you can move on without it.

I agree with those here saying that people asking why you haven't forgiven yet just want your pain to stop affecting them. They are not good supportive friends to help you through that pain, in other words.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

bobert said:


> I don't think I have ever had someone tell me to get over it already or just forgive her. Instead, if I show any sign of trusting her I get told I'm an idiot. So there's no winning.


You are not an idiot. You are a kind soul who loves his wife very much and believe in your heart that the reasons you married her remain valid.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

A lot of people misunderstand forgiveness too. You can forgive your husband but not remain married to him anymore. Forgiving someone doesn't necessarily mean that everything goes back to the way it was before.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

marko polo said:


> This is the truth about friends. You will see who your friends are when you suffer a personal crisis such as divorce. In my own case my "friends" were the fair weather variety and scattered like mice when my marriage ended. When people like this depart your life let them go and keep them out.
> 
> Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. It means letting go of the hurt and hate and all the baggage that came with it. Detachment from your betrayer(s). Unfortunately this doesn't happen overnight. Forgiveness does not obligate you to have anything to do with your betrayer(s) or even like them. Just means you don't waste any further time or energy on them once they have gone or you have left them behind.
> 
> ...


To many use the term friends loosely. They were just acquaintances. Not friends.

definition of friend - loyal, honest and trustworthy.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Only you can determine when, if, and how you forgive; and when, if, and how you forget.
> 
> Not your friends, your family, strangers online, and certainly not him.


Exactly. YOU MUST FORGIVE! Say “I forgive” and it magically happens. Nope.

For me it happens over time. When you get to a point it doesn’t matter anymore.


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## iwantittobebetter (Feb 1, 2021)

i find the whole idea of Forgiveness a huge responsibility being placed on the partner who wasn't at fault in the first place. Grossly unfair. 

i can understand Empathy, to an extent. i can understand putting myself in his shoes through the entire journey of his dissociating with me, enough to find comfort/excitement (whatever tf it was) with her. 
but whenever i do this exercise, i feel what a creep he was to have escaped to an alternate world, not fighting for Us. so, it doesn't really help me. i have seen it help more mature and generous people, but not me.

Forgiveness asks you to close the chapter and open a fresh one. It entails the premise that he's a changed person now...that part of him which conspired to the deceit has been somehow removed through a lobotomy. But that's not true. 

In our business we use Forecast Modelling. we take into account the positives and the negatives and basis all of it predict future behaviour. There has to be a big positive to offset this shattering amount of negative, before my Predictive engine says the future is looking back on track. If i witness that, maybe i can forgive.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

I watched a documentary recently about a Holocaust survivor, a victim of Mengele, who forgave her captor, but she was very clear that she did not do it for that person who did unspeakable things. She did it for herself, because she saw fellow survivors be eaten up with the pain of the hatred they felt. Nobody can really imagine what it's like to go through those things. But it definitely didn't mean she was saying that she would have been willing to remain in the concentration camp, and it definitely didn't mean that she felt what happened to her was in any way acceptable. She just said that she had the power of forgiveness over her abuser, imagined him in the room with her, read out 50 bad words she always wanted to say to him, and said "in spite of that, I forgive you." When she was criticized by other survivors, she said that it was an act of self empowerment and self healing. 

It's not an analogy, because infidelity is not even remotely comparable to surviving human experimentation and captivity, but when I watched it, it made me rethink what survivors mean when they say they forgive. When you get to the place where you feel ready to forgive, if that happens, it will happen by itself, not because others try and badger you into it. And it is ultimately, an act of power, an act of healing, because you are allowing yourself to say everything you ever wanted to say, and then to start to mend the torn parts of yourself, and allow yourself to be ok. And I thought that if she can forgive and make the choice to heal, then this is comparatively little to forgive. Side note: forgive in this context i take to mean I am letting go of this now. I am addressing it, then choosing to move on, NOT that what the person who did something terrible wasn't wrong.

This has to happen on your own timeline, if at all. You make that decision when you feel ready.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Thinking about it — I’m not sure that I forgive as much as I become indifferent and detached and just don’t really care any longer. Usually, those people who need serious “forgiveness” from me don’t get to remain in my life. Forgetting is on another scale entirely. That doesn’t happen.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

In my lifetime, my mom used to hit me every day with a board or broomstick from my shoulders to my knees until she was tired. She'd scream at us for about an hour, working her way into a frenzy of anger, then hit us, and when I say "us" I was the oldest, and my two sisters were 1 year and 9 years younger. My sister close to my age was introverted and very smart, so for some part she stayed out of my mom's way. My sister who was 9 years younger was "the baby" and too young to be hit so much. I, on the other hand, was the oldest, I was responsible, and I was "rebellious" and did everything I was told not to do, etc. So she literally hurt me every single day. And in those days, it's not as if schools noticed a kid with bruises or asked parents what was going on. So my goal was to live long enough to move out and escape at 18yo. That was my goal in life--to stay alive and piss her off for surviving. Isn't that horrible?

My dad was (is) an alcoholic, and he knew what was going on, but didn't want to deal with it. He would go to work and grab a beer after work. He would get up and leave if she started in on us over the weekend. He knew she was mentally unstable, and rather than protect us kids from her, she'd yell at him too, and he'd just leave us. So there you go. It was not good. 

But, I do think within myself that I have forgiven my parents for what they did. Not because they are sorry--heck no. They both still justify it: "It was a child discipline technique" my mom says, and my dad still says he's not an alcoholic (even though he periodically will slip back into drinking and drinks about a case/day). Nope, neither one admits what they did, admits they need or needed counseling, admits they were wrong, or asks for forgiveness. And I honestly think I have every right to hold a grudge. They were my parents and their job was to nurture me, not hurt me. What they did caused great harm...GREAT harm!

And yet, within my heart I do believe and feel like I have forgiven them. They have their mental illnesses and addictions to deal with (or not) as they see fit. They are adults and they are personally responsible for their choices. I don't wish ill upon them or speak ill about them in front of their face or behind their back. I believe they both had their own issues and did the best they could to deny and avoid facing themselves, and that's sad. The natural consequence of choosing to not face what they did, not face themselves and deal with their issues, is that I can not be close to them at all. I can speak to them in a civil way, like I would to the bank teller. I can care about them as a member of the human race. I can even see that old age has mellowed their illnesses somewhat and offer some kindness. I do not wish them ill. But I also do not interact closely with them, allow them close to me, or even physically live close. I live FAR, FAR away in order to live my life according to my values and in order to avoid their manipulation, deflection, avoidance, blame-shifting, etc. I forgive, but I do not continue to allow you to hurt me. 

When people talk about forgiveness, they often mean "rugsweep and pretend it didn't happen" or "go back to the way it was." That IS NOT forgiveness. When someone cheats, if they are not repentant and completely change themselves and they way they were living, then you can forgive them of what they did to you...but that does not mean you rugsweep their adultery, pretend it didn't happen, or go back to the abuse the way it was. It means that you voluntarily put down the weapon of "How They Wronged You" and for your own sake, you agree within yourself to not pick it up again. That doesn't mean the weapon doesn't exist, or that you should let them keep swinging it at you! Just that you agree to not pick it up for your own sake. In a way, it is letting go of a connection to the abusive person.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

I appreciate all the comments and the shared experiences with this topic. To know there are so many people that wrestle with the topic of forgiveness is both sad and helpful at the same time. Humans are such complicated creatures. No 2 are exactly alike yet we can feel empathy for others in pain. I appreciate y’all.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Folks who want you to simply move on most likely have never been down this road. I have told some about being sexually assaulted in my youth and how it ruined my teenage years. They say the same thing..."Just move on.. do not let it burden you so".


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> Well I’m a NY’er transplanted in the South...😂 I’d love to find a happy medium between the f-off and the bless your heart. I consider myself assertive to be honest. I’m pretty straight forward.



Glad to have you down here with us.
My wife and I spent 4 years in Newburgh New York while I was in the service. She graduated from SUNY New Paltz.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

ABHale said:


> Glad to have you down here with us.
> My wife and I spent 4 years in Newburgh New York while I was in the service. She graduated from SUNY New Paltz.


Thank you!


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> I am curious when people say this to me...Why can’t you just forgive him...Do people actually forgive and then all the pain disappears? The trust automatically reappears...I can forgive you for driving recklessly and getting us into an accident but should that mean I should hop in the car again? I don’t understand why I am viewed as deficient because of my inability to “truly forgive”. Anyone have insight on this phenomenon?


Girl, I wouldn't waste my time answering that question. They must be very lucky, sheltered, or stupid. I'd hate to think they could that emotionally bankrupt not to feel for you.

I've faced this a few times, for not forgiving family members for willfully hurting me on more than one occasion. I had close family lecture me on why I should forgive my father before he died, although he didn't ask, or apologize. I nicely said **** that, and went on with my life, despite their judgment and nagging. He's dead and gone, no regrets 20 years later!

I think people confuse forgiveness with not hating someone. I don't hate anyone who's ever hurt me, even my ex. I don't wish him ill, but I won't lie and say he wouldn't deserve something awful. If forgiveness is not hating, letting go of bitterness, and simply living your life, then ok, I can see that, only you can decide what that looks like to you.



Openminded said:


> Thinking about it — I’m not sure that I forgive as much as I become indifferent and detached and just don’t really care any longer. Usually, those people who need serious “forgiveness” from me don’t get to remain in my life. Forgetting is on another scale entirely. That doesn’t happen.


This is what I work towards, everything else comes with time. 



marko polo said:


> This is the truth about friends. You will see who your friends are when you suffer a personal crisis such as divorce. In my own case my "friends" were the fair weather variety and scattered like mice when my marriage ended. When people like this depart your life let them go and keep them out.
> 
> Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. It means letting go of the hurt and hate and all the baggage that came with it. Detachment from your betrayer(s). Unfortunately this doesn't happen overnight. Forgiveness does not obligate you to have anything to do with your betrayer(s) or even like them. Just means you don't waste any further time or energy on them once they have gone or you have left them behind.
> 
> ...


Wow, this is so true.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Asking if you forgive a person assumes that you still care or have feelings for that person. In the case of my Ex, have I forgiven her? I don't know because I have no feelings for or about her. But I can say that I haven't forgotten.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Often it is necessary to approach forgiveness from not just outward, but inward... a balancing act of removing those who have rented space in our suffering and understanding ourselves why we are where we are.

Both need forgiveness in an agreement that allows the releasing of someone else when we realize that we were the ones confined, not them. In that we will also realize we are not bound to be the same person we were yesterday, nothing now to keep us held to another's plight of trying to make the past the desirable outcome when it can never be as we know it isn't the truth.

Once we are free, relating to those who have hurt us is hard as we have changed our eyes but struggle to let go of the things that have hurt us, thus we have lost connection to them and that in itself allows a bridge to unbridled acceptance to love ourselves more instead of beating ourselves up for putting up with the past decisions that made us so unhappy.

The truth is that you have put up with a lot... it is also truth to say you don't have to accept that it is the way it will be.

Closure is a funny desire... we think there are explanations to be had, justifications to be found, answers deserved, pain to be removed.

We don't always get what we want... but to look for these with reliance on those who chose to disappointed and roll back the clock will rob one of our peace for sure.

You always have the choice if you want them as part of any outcome... choose wisely.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Often it is necessary to approach forgiveness from not just outward, but inward... a balancing act of removing those who have rented space in our suffering and understanding ourselves why we are where we are.
> 
> Both need forgiveness in an agreement that allows the releasing of someone else when we realize that we were the ones confined, not them. In that we will also realize we are not bound to be the same person we were yesterday, nothing now to keep us held to another's plight of trying to make the past the desirable outcome when it can never be as we know it isn't the truth.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much EB for that very succinct perspective. I know like many other comments I have received here I will re-read it many times.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Affaircare said:


> It means that you voluntarily put down the weapon of "How They Wronged You" and for your own sake, you agree within yourself to not pick it up again. That doesn't mean the weapon doesn't exist, or that you should let them keep swinging it at you! Just that you agree to not pick it up for your own sake. In a way, it is letting go of a connection to the abusive person.


THIS is a PERFECT explanation!!! Thank you! 💜


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Torninhalf said:


> Well I’m a NY’er transplanted in the South...😂 I’d love to find a happy medium between the f-off and the bless your heart. I consider myself assertive to be honest. I’m pretty straight forward.


My response to "Why can't you forgive (them)?" is "Have they forgiven me yet?" Some get it but others will sincerely ask "Forgive you for what?" If you get that create a succinct summary like "for committing adultery, draining the household budget for her ...." 2 or 3 you know. The worst intransigencies you can think like "for finding her panties under my pillow." 

I can guarantee you they will never ask you again.

FTR, the most famous person I am aware of asking for forgiveness is Marla Maples begging for it from Ivana. This is one time I side with Ivana.


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## C.C. says ... (Aug 1, 2020)

People that don’t forgive, even years later, are scary. You either get over it eventually (forgiving) and no longer care, or you go around hating someone 20 years later. Which really only shows that you still care and are cruel, besides. 

Non forgivers seem to forget that they’re only perfect in perfect circumstances. Any one of us could find ourselves wearing the other person’s shoes. But we forget that, don’t we?


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

The clause, "You need to forgive them" is in many ways similar to the House Managers cherry picking parts of Trumps speech. The correct and complete clause is, "You need to forgive them and forget them"


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

QuietRiot said:


> Well, it was extremely hurtful at first, now I’m grateful. I cut these people and will be more discerning in the future. Anyone who thinks cheating is not their business or no biggie can suck it.


Exactly! I belive those same people are ones that would see a child being abused or woman about to be raped and say, "I don't want to get involved!" as they go in and close their doors. 
Irks me to see that on tv shows in New York or another big city. Man im from the rural south town of less that 5k, we are gonna pull a firearm and put a stop to that crap!


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

C.C. says ... said:


> People that don’t forgive, even years later, are scary. You either get over it eventually (forgiving) and no longer care, or you go around hating someone 20 years later. Which really only shows that you still care and are cruel, besides.
> 
> Non forgivers seem to forget that they’re only perfect in perfect circumstances. Any one of us could find ourselves wearing the other person’s shoes. But we forget that, don’t we?


Well perhaps I will be a scary, cruel Non forgiver...😂


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

joannacroc said:


> I watched a documentary recently about a Holocaust survivor, a victim of Mengele, who forgave her captor, but she was very clear that she did not do it for that person who did unspeakable things. She did it for herself, because she saw fellow survivors be eaten up with the pain of the hatred they felt. Nobody can really imagine what it's like to go through those things. But it definitely didn't mean she was saying that she would have been willing to remain in the concentration camp, and it definitely didn't mean that she felt what happened to her was in any way acceptable. She just said that she had the power of forgiveness over her abuser, imagined him in the room with her, read out 50 bad words she always wanted to say to him, and said "in spite of that, I forgive you." When she was criticized by other survivors, she said that it was an act of self empowerment and self healing.
> 
> It's not an analogy, because infidelity is not even remotely comparable to surviving human experimentation and captivity, but when I watched it, it made me rethink what survivors mean when they say they forgive. When you get to the place where you feel ready to forgive, if that happens, it will happen by itself, not because others try and badger you into it. And it is ultimately, an act of power, an act of healing, because you are allowing yourself to say everything you ever wanted to say, and then to start to mend the torn parts of yourself, and allow yourself to be ok. And I thought that if she can forgive and make the choice to heal, then this is comparatively little to forgive. Side note: forgive in this context i take to mean I am letting go of this now. I am addressing it, then choosing to move on, NOT that what the person who did something terrible wasn't wrong.
> 
> This has to happen on your own timeline, if at all. You make that decision when you feel ready.


It is not comparable to that but i view it as a sexual assault. If the victim was unknowingly allowed to have sex with the WS after they were having sex with AP then they were unknowingly exposed to bodily fluuds of AP anfmd what ever sexually transmitted diseases the AP had. Really not much different that someone having sex with an unconcience sex partner. Remember those stories where wife sucks off AP or lets AP finish in her and then runs home to hubby and gives him a big ole slopy kiss or gets him to perform oral sex on her and her and her AP get off on degrading the BS like that.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Torninhalf said:


> Well perhaps I will be a scary, cruel Non forgiver...😂


Don't argue with people like him in real life.

This is the time to be obtuse and ask what they're talking about.


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## C.C. says ... (Aug 1, 2020)

NextTimeAround said:


> Don't argue with people like him in real life.
> 
> This is the time to be obtuse and ask what they're talking about.


Don’t argue with people like “him”? 

I’m a girl for one thing. Get it right. For another, I stand by what I said. You can be a non forgiver all you choose. I choose not to be. Sure, hold it against the person for the rest of your life. That says a lot more about you than it does them. Don’t like my posts? Don’t read them.


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## C.C. says ... (Aug 1, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> Well perhaps I will be a scary, cruel Non forgiver...😂


No skin off my ass. 🤷‍♀️


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

C.C. says ... said:


> No skin off my ass. 🤷‍♀️


Indeed. I think nothing is black or white. I also think there are things that are simply unforgivable.


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## C.C. says ... (Aug 1, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> Indeed. I think nothing is black or white. I also think there are things that are simply unforgivable.


Point taken. I guess if someone killed a family member, I’d never be able to forgive that. Most likely, it would hurt for life. But in relationship terms, it’s a whole lot of holding onto misery when the other party probably doesn’t even give you a thought. Besides, It’s just one persons opinion. Just like all the others in this thread.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

C.C. says ... said:


> Point taken. I guess if someone killed a family member, I’d never be able to forgive that. Most likely, it would hurt for life. But in relationship terms, it’s a whole lot of holding onto misery when the other party probably doesn’t even give you a thought. Besides, It’s just one persons opinion. Just like all the others in this thread.


I sure hope my husband gives me a thought... 😂


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## C.C. says ... (Aug 1, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> I think my point is that you have no idea what it feels like as you don’t have a LTR that spans decades and generations. You also have no idea how I treat my husband in the aftermath. 😁


K


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

C.C. says ... said:


> Don’t argue with people like “him”?
> 
> I’m a girl for one thing. Get it right. For another, I stand by what I said. You can be a non forgiver all you choose. I choose not to be. Sure, hold it against the person for the rest of your life. That says a lot more about you than it does them. Don’t like my posts? Don’t read them.


Thanks for the reminder about the nifty ignore feature. 

You haven't been back long and already you are off to the races with the same types of responses to people.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*This thread is getting unpleasant. Please keep it civil.*


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## OddOne (Sep 27, 2018)

If people want to forgive infidelity or some other transgression that is, of course, their business. That said, I think the most important thing when it comes to forgiveness is to actually be ready to try and forgive a person for whatever that person may have done to you. One should never say they forgive someone simply because they believe they are obligated to for cultural and, or, religious reasons. Forgiveness needs to come from within.

When it comes to recommending forgiveness, I think it's better when it comes from a stranger than when it comes from a relative or friend. Simply because a stranger does not have the self-interest a friend or family member does to try and get things back to normal, so to speak. Probably most won't want to admit this, but a major reason for pushing a friend or relative to forgive someone else is to get that friend or relative to stop complaining. People have a limit to how long and how often they are willing and able to lend a compassionate ear.


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