# Do you think being deprived sex is as bad as cheating?



## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Mostly, the 'cheater' in a relationship is blamed. What's overlooked often is that in a HD-LD relationship, the frustration that one faces after being consistently deprived sex... a topic not many would want to talk about. Specially if they're men...


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Cheating trumps all in my world.


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## P51Geo1980 (Sep 25, 2013)

Yes, absolutely. There isn't a physical betrayal, but there is emotional betrayal and pain none the less. It is a betrayal of marriage vows and a betrayal of the promise that your spouse makes to meet your needs. I was in a sexless marriage with a wife that I loved very much for most of our 7 years married. It was the most painful thing I've ever endured. The lonliness, seeing couples that are happy together, wondering what is wrong with you that your spouse had no desire for you...yeah it's just as painful as an affair. There were days I fell asleep with tears in my eyes and woke up with tears in my eyes. It's really sad that it took a divorce for her to realize what she lost, but that's what happened. I've been dating someone for a little over a year and it's such a nice feeling to be with someone who actually likes and loves me. We have a very healthy sex life and many hobbies in common.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Muse1976 (Apr 25, 2015)

Cheating is right after murder and rape in my book. That's coming from a man. 

3 choices in a sexless marriage. 

Convince spouse to change.
Live with it.
Divorce.

Cheating is not even an option.

Just my 2 cents.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> Mostly, the 'cheater' in a relationship is blamed. What's overlooked often is that in a HD-LD relationship, the frustration that one faces after being consistently deprived sex... a topic not many would want to talk about. Specially if they're men...


Are you assuming that this is the cause of most cheating?

If a person is unhappy with their marital sex life, or lack there of, and they cannot fix it then leave the marriage. Don't go sneaking around cheating.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cheating is worse but deprivation is really bad as well and something I categories as abuse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

Depriving your partner of sex is a form of abuse.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> Cheating is worse but deprivation is really bad as well and something I categories as abuse.


There is an issue with making a blanket categorization that not wanting sex with one's spouse is abuse in all cases.

Sometimes a person who does not want have sex has a good reason.

One of the posters that comes to mind is the guy who posted about what a wonderful husband he was but his wife would not have sex with him. As is normal around here he got a lot of support and sympathy. The advice ranged from go cheat, dump her, MMSLP, etc.

Well the wife found this thread and posted. Turns out that the reason she seldom has sex with him is that he comes home from work (they both worked) and goes right to bedroom. Spends in non-work hours in bed watching TV. He ignores her. He will not take a shower, will not brush his teeth, for days.. weeks. 

His idea of initialing sex is to lay in bed naked. When she happens to walk by, he'll tell her to just jump on.

I don't blame her for not wanting sex with this guy. She said that she has tried everything to get him active, clean, etc. He just did not care.

I could go on with other situations that are understandable.. they do exist.

To categorically say that it's abuse to not want sex with a spouse is not taking into consideration that the person complaining must might be a huge part of the problem.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Issues of "not being clean", "not brushing teeth" etc tend to suddenly come up when one partner feels s/he doesn't want to continue the regular sexual relationship, and can keep the other without sex...

Have seen that other. Yet, in the 'honeymoon' phase, none of these issues tend to be noticed...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> Issues of "not being clean", "not brushing teeth" etc tend to suddenly come up when one partner feels s/he doesn't want to continue the regular sexual relationship, and can keep the other without sex...
> 
> Have seen that other. Yet, in the 'honeymoon' phase, none of these issues tend to be noticed...


The guy in question admitted that what she said was true. He had become a lazy, dirty man. 

If a person does not maintain their physical hygiene, then their spouse has every right to refuse sex. The solution is easy.. go take a shower and brush your teeth.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

I don't know about in general, but for me personally it did feel like that. It destroyed my relationship.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Adeline said:


> I don't know about in general, but for me personally it did feel like that. It destroyed my relationship.


It's no clear what you mean here? You felt like what?


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

Sports Fan said:


> Depriving your partner of sex is a form of abuse.


No, it's not.

EDIT: Oops, I thought I typed more but I either deleted it or it didn't post.

Anyway, I'm sure rejection can take a huge emotional toll on a person, but it is not abuse. Your partner has no obligation to have sex with you, you are not entitled to their body. And I'm sure the LD (etc) partner feels just as awful about being pressured for sex all the time as the other partner feels about being denied it.


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## jacko jack (Feb 19, 2015)

Good morning

I personally think that being deprived of sex, which is part of marriage contract 1 Corinthians 7 3-4, is the same as cheating, being cheated from the full marriage bed. I consider my wife is cheating by depriving me of sex.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Here is another situation in which withholding sex by this wife is not abuse of her husband.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/relati...stian-contemplating-divorce.html#post12549073


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## iri (May 7, 2015)

As bad as cheating? No.

Thoughtless, hurtful, rude, unkind, etc. Absolutely.

A relationship takes two. If your partner keeps telling you something is wrong and their needs are being met, it's a bad move to just keep ignoring them. You either care enough to try and reach a compromise, or you keep being selfish by forcing the sexual encounters to remain at YOUR level.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

No they really aren't comparable. In cheating it is done behind your back. You have no knowledge of it. The emotional toll can take years to never to get over. It's a direct violations of the vows you took and at least for me unrecoverable from.

Withholding sex is a choice one partner makes. That information is directly place in front of the other spouse so they have knowledge of it. You don't have control over your spouses body. But you do absolutely have control over yours. And if sex is off the table you do have the right to leave and find it elsewhere. But this doesn't make it ok to cheat. Cheating won't fix this.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

My STBXH and I hadn't had sex in about a year (married 25 years) when he started cheating. Sex with him for our entire marriage was never a spontaneous, one of us reaching out for the other and just initiating it kind of thing - I tried that a few times early on and he rejected me - he was "tired" or wasn't "up for it." When he was it was always something that was talked about and planned, even back in the days before we had our son. It was also always the same - he was into a certain role-playing type thing I won't go into, and that was always what we did. There was almost never any mouth-to-mouth kissing, which is actually something I quite enjoy just in and of itself. I talked to him about this and things I would like better, but nothing ever really changed.

I never once rejected him in all the times he asked for sex. He just didn't ask for it that often - he is gone a lot for his job - more than half the time - so even at our best, it was at a rate of maybe once a week, occasionally twice. In the later years, it became more like once a month. He seemed fine with that, and never once told me it was bothering him that we weren't more active. I even asked him several times if it was, and he said no. I would have liked to feel more wanted (or some), myself. Instead, I always felt like he was just going through the motions to eventually get to his end game. It never felt like there was any real closeness or intimacy there. So should we still be married? Of course not. Should he have cheated and lied to me repeatedly about that (and he would still by lying about it if he hadn't gotten caught)? Of course not.

So, the casual onlooker might say, "Well, they hadn't had sex in a year. Who can blame him for cheating." They'd be dead wrong.

Also, who has really been abusing whom in this scenario? 

As has been said many times but always bears repeating:

If you are unhappy with the lack of sex in your marriage, you have three viable options:

1. Tell your spouse you're unhappy about it, and that if it doesn't change, you're leaving.

2. Work on it with your spouse after you tell them this, if they and you both want to save the marriage.

3. Leave honorably, divorce, and find someone *after you leave* who satisfies your needs.

Cheating is not an option.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

They're about the same, IMO. Both are a breaking of vows, if you took such vows. The long-term pain of being rejected is on a par with the pain of being cheated on, IMO.

There are better solutions for both denial and cheating: divorce first. The denier should be the one to end the marriage since they're responsible for it's decline. The cheater should be the one to end the marriage before resorting to cheating. However, it seems that neither do so in many or most cases. Both are selfish. Each earns any negative consequences that result.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

I agree with CONAN and Ele.

I agree with CONAN and Jacko that withholding sex from your spouse is abuse (in general, qualified).

However i agree with Ele also that there are situations where there are legitimate non-physical reasons to withhold sex.

I still say CONAN's the best answer so far, but qualified to say under circumstances where the denied spouse is not a bum. 
some people are just plain mean. That's all there is to it.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

Nibut it's like saying chopping off all of someone's arms and legs isn't as bad as killing them.

What is your point? That cheating is OK since your needs have been blown off? 

WRONG. Leave the marriage. DONT cheat. Cheaters suck in every sense of the word. Absolutely rotten azzholes to the core.

It's so easy to be a piece of crap when trusted. Doing the right thing can be hard. That is why it is so honorable to toe the line you will be proud of.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

i take OP question to be rhetorical rather than literal.

two wrongs don't make a right. You can't cheat. and being denied is not license to cheat.


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## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

My husband withheld sex from me for most of our marriage. And he's the one who cheated...

The sex issues was painful for me. But the cheating devastated me. So no, I don't think that with holding sex is the same as cheating. Two very different things.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

batsociety said:


> No, it's not.
> 
> EDIT: Oops, I thought I typed more but I either deleted it or it didn't post.
> 
> Anyway, I'm sure rejection can take a huge emotional toll on a person, but it is not abuse. Your partner has no obligation to have sex with you, you are not entitled to their body. And I'm sure the LD (etc) partner feels just as awful about being pressured for sex all the time as the other partner feels about being denied it.


It is situational. All is not abuse, but some is.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

* Cheating, as well as the intentional withholding of loving sexual relations within the confines of the marriage bed are equally and destructively detrimental, at least in my mind's eye!

Cheating is nothing more than an exercise in power to undermine and ultimately decimate what should be a committed, loving, married relationship.

Conversely, the withholding of marital sex from your partner is also an egregious, often selfish exercise in power to try to make either an overt or covert attempt at controlling some aspect of, or the entire marriage itself!*


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

i think there has got to be a serious marital issue to hold hold sex by one spouse or the other. it can't be just "it's boring", "i'm not attracted to you anymore", "you're not good in bed", "we're married too long", or the infamous "people our age don't have sex that often".

Significant abuse, verbal, behavioral, or physical would be one reason.
infidelity of any sort, whether cybersex, EA, or physical

there may be a few others, but not many. the example Ele gave about the guy who ignored his wife, never brushed his teeth, would come under 'behavioral' abuse in my opinion.

of course this is subjective and some people would say "well where do you draw the line"? Well, there is a line. that line is don't deny your spouse sex unless he/she is a BUM!


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It is situational. All is not abuse, but some is.


When do you think it crosses the line into abusive territory?

I have definitely read some stories here from people who are in what I would call emotionally abusive relationships and the lack of sex is a symptom of that, but I would not call the act of depriving sex abuse in itself.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> No they really aren't comparable. In cheating it is done behind your back. You have no knowledge of it. The emotional toll can take years to never to get over. It's a direct violations of the vows you took and at least for me unrecoverable from.
> 
> Withholding sex is a choice one partner makes. That information is directly place in front of the other spouse so they have knowledge of it. You don't have control over your spouses body. But you do absolutely have control over yours. And if sex is off the table you do have the right to leave and find it elsewhere. But this doesn't make it ok to cheat. Cheating won't fix this.


:iagree:

I definitely would not put being deprived sex at the same level as cheating. Sure, it's hurtful, rude, etc. when deprived sex, but being cheated on is devastating.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

My wife and I were both in sexless marriages previously, but we did not cheat. (My ex would have deserved any distress it would have caused if I had, though, and I'd have had no remorse. I do have ethics and self-respect.) Anyway, my wife and I agreed we'd never put up with a sexless relationship again, so we explicitly agreed that we would either split up or open the relationship if for any reason the frequency became too low for one of us, but would discuss it first.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> (My ex would have deserved any distress it would have caused if I had, though, and I'd have had no remorse. I do have ethics and self-respect.)


Wow. I don't think anyone deserves the distress being cheated on causes. Not even my STBXH who cheated on me and is leaving me for the OW, all of which has been the most devastating experience I have ever had - and I have lost both my parents - my mother sudddenly many years ago.

You say you'd have no remorse for causing her this kind of distress, and then you say you have ethics. I beg to differ.


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## Noble1 (Oct 25, 2013)

To answer the question for myself, I feel that cheating is indeed worse than being deprived of sex - how much worse I cannot say at this point as I am biased.

EleGirl has a good point in her post (post #8) in that sometimes there is a good reason why the spouse can't/won't have sex.

In my situation I totally understand why my wife can't right now (possibly more on the won't side) and she is trying to deal with the situation. It's more of a mental health issue with the standard issues that go along with anti-depressants, etc.

My wife still wants me to be 'loving' towards her and 95% of the time I can. We spend time together, etc. and I have been trying to hit all 5 love languages for her consistently.

The sad thing is that sometimes, like many posters, I feel like all I do is give and give and give and never get anything returned.

Just the other day my wife and I were talking about the day and the progress of her treatment and she readily admits to not being there for me in many ways.

She also said that she loves the attention and affection that I provide for her but she can't/won't return some back to me.

Sorry for the vent but its been riding my back for the past few days.

I mean I do understand where she is coming from and do believe her reasons ....but damn....it still leaves me feeling empty inside.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Nomorebeans said:


> You say you'd have no remorse for causing her this kind of distress, and then you say you have ethics. I beg to differ.


What are her ethics for depriving me of sex for so many years, knowing the distress it caused, and knowing that she married me out of selfish reasons, not out of love?

I have ethics in that I DID NOT cheat on her even though she'd have deserved any pain it caused. It would have been a small balancing of the books, IMO. So my ethics over-rode my desire for revenge - but I did divorce her.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

batsociety said:


> When do you think it crosses the line into abusive territory?


When it is used as a weapon. 
See it is easy to call this abuse: 
He/She hit me when I embarrassed him/her.

This isn't easy to call abuse for many IMO:
He/She withheld sex when I embarrassed him/her.

I've seen this logic in many threads and it irks me. Overt is easy, but people dance around subtle abuse. When I grew up, people scoffed at emotional abuse. 


> I have definitely read some stories here from people who are in what I would call emotionally abusive relationships and the lack of sex is a symptom of that, but I would not call the act of depriving sex abuse in itself.


That's fine, to me, a symptom is still abuse.
All of these:
Lack of affection
Screaming
Physical
Coercion
Manipulation
Demands for excessive Sex
Sexual abuse (Martial Rape for example)

Are seen as abusive by themselves. So, for me, some rejections and refusals can become abusive all by themselves.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

In the absence of real physical or mental limitations, or some of the abuse issues raised in previous comments then Yes, I think intentionally or knowingly depriving your partner, or making love and affection conditional is just as bad as cheating. The depriver has decided which vows they actually meant and which were "more like guidelines" the other partner gets no say in that decision.

As someone who's XW admitted in MC that she had never been interested in an intimate relationship I feel I was cheated out of half of my life that could have been with someone that wanted a real loving relationship.

When you say your vows to someone and enter into a legally binding relationship under false pretenses or you decide that something, such as intimacy, that should be a mutual and bonding part of that relationship is yours alone to control the other with that's when the cheating starts.

Marriage isn't a craigslist ad for a roommate, and neither partner gets to pick and choose the vows that they actually meant and those where they had their fingers crossed behind their back while expecting the other to uphold all conditions.


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## dash74 (Jan 3, 2015)

Yes it is cheating, you out of a happy fulfilling marriage and two wrongs dont make a right 

Get her that mothers day present from that info i posted in your other post, if you are gonna suck it up and not devorce her just say f it and have fun with the sh*t sandwich on your plate


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> What are her ethics for depriving me of sex for so many years, knowing the distress it caused, and knowing that she married me out of selfish reasons, not out of love?
> 
> I have ethics in that I DID NOT cheat on her even though she'd have deserved any pain it caused. It would have been a small balancing of the books, IMO. So my ethics over-rode my desire for revenge - but I did divorce her.


If she purposefully deprived you of sex "for so many years, knowing the distress it caused," why didn't you leave her sooner? It sounds like you asked for or initiated sex often and got rejected regularly, and that you regularly expressed to her exactly how you felt about that. If that's true, but you stayed with her for the kids' sake or some other compelling reason anyway, I don't think it's fair of you to resent her so much that you still wish major depression upon her.

My STBX never spoke of feeling distressed or hurt or frustrated at the relative infrequency of sex in our marriage. Not even once. I even asked him if he was unhappy about it more than once and if I could do anything to make it better, and he said no every time.

So you didn't cheat on your ex-wife. Let's break out the party hats, because it sounds like you think it was a tremendous sacrifice on your part not to.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

WonkyNinja said:


> In the absence of real physical or mental limitations, or some of the abuse issues raised in previous comments then Yes, I think intentionally or knowingly depriving your partner, or making love and affection conditional is just as bad as cheating. The depriver has decided which vows they actually meant and which were "more like guidelines" the other partner gets no say in that decision.
> 
> As someone who's XW admitted in MC that she had never been interested in an intimate relationship I feel I was cheated out of half of my life that could have been with someone that wanted a real loving relationship.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear of your and other posters' experiences with spouses who never had any true desire to be intimate with them. That truly is terrible. But you have another option besides cheating and lying. Leave.

I think people cheat because they're cowards. Sure, maybe their marriages really are terrible. But a brave person says to him or herself, "I can't and I won't live like this. I'd rather be alone than be repeatedly rejected by this person." And then they tell their spouses this, and then they leave.

A coward cheats, yet continues to live, like a roommate, with the spouse they don't love who makes them feel unwanted and rejected, why? For financial reasons? Supposedly for the kids (in the long run, that's no good, because they just learn love and marriage are all about resentment and pain)? Because they're afraid of being alone?

Be a big boy or a big girl and just leave.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

Nomorebeans said:


> I'm sorry to hear of your and other posters' experiences with spouses who never had any true desire to be intimate with them. That truly is terrible. But you have another option besides cheating and lying. Leave.
> 
> I think people cheat because they're cowards. Sure, maybe their marriages really are terrible. But a brave person says to him or herself, "I can't and I won't live like this. I'd rather be alone than be repeatedly rejected by this person." And then they tell their spouses this, and then they leave.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

You are correct. I should have left a lot earlier. Looking back all the red flags were flying within the first few months. Initially I believed that the problems were all me and if I just did X or changed Y then everything would be good.

I eventually did leave, hence the "XW". If I'd left earlier then I wouldn't have the wonderful daughter that I do!!

She told me that the grass would not be greener on the other side of the fence, but I discovered that the grass was like a manicured fairway.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

dash74 said:


> Yes it is cheating, you out of a happy fulfilling marriage and to wrongs dont make a right
> 
> Get her that mothers day present from that info i posted in your other post, if you are gonna suck it up and not devorce her just say f it and have fun with the sh*t sandwich on your plate


What other post? 

We did devorce, hence the XW.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

brownmale said:


> Mostly, the 'cheater' in a relationship is blamed. What's overlooked often is that in a HD-LD relationship, the frustration that one faces after being consistently deprived sex... a topic not many would want to talk about. Specially if they're men...



In a HD / LD marriage and relationship, the LD spouse never sees sex as the issue. Even though the HD spouse has talked to them about it many times, umped through hoops whatever the LD spouse might need, etc. Sex doesn't increase much at all after doing everything, and anything. So the HD spouse is depressed, upset, resentful, sex starved while the LD doesn't see this as an issue to themselves. It's all the HD spouses fault.

Then what happens a lot of the time, is the HD spouse has an EA or PA because they're sex starved and weak. All this could of been stopped if the LD spouse really made the effort to take care of their HD spouses needs as their own.

I too am against cheating but I can see how it gets to that point and understand.

When you get married, you are to take care of your other halves needs as your own, whatever they might be, in this case sexual. If you don't, you are being selfish and setting up the marriage for disaster and only have yourself to blame.

If LD spouses won't do any real changing and taking care of their other halves needs, they should remain single until they figure out why they are LD or marry a LD spouse.

This goes both ways for us guys and the ladies.

Sex to me is the glue and intimacy that hubby and wifee share. It bonds you so close together more than hanging together and talking will ever do. Sex unstresses us, helps us deal with tough days and times in life. Denying a spouse sex is cruel and not worthy in a marriage.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

brownmale said:


> Mostly, the 'cheater' in a relationship is blamed. What's overlooked often is that in a HD-LD relationship, the frustration that one faces after being consistently deprived sex... a topic not many would want to talk about. Specially if they're men...


These questions do not belong together.

The cheater is always to blame for the cheating.

Witholding sex is wrong, but then who wants duty sex? If the marriage is cold, deal with it, accept it, or part ways. Betrayal is always a choice.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

This whole conversation devalues my 18 years of fidelity with my wife through many problems. I am offended that my ability to stay faithful through all of this is being mediated into simply a higher tolerance for abuse as opposed to the quality of my character. Perhaps this seems a bit puritan or even arrogant, but FFS people. Character counts. It should count, or we are just animals.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

CuddleBug said:


> If LD spouses won't do any real changing and taking care of their other halves needs, they should remain single until they figure out why they are LD or marry a LD spouse.


Well, now we're back into those other long threads, so I'm not going to rehash it. But one of the key things we established was that when there is a libido mismatch the LDs do not see themselves as the problem! Why should the LD be the one to change to accommodate the HD? Why can't the HD change to accommodate the LD? Why shouldn't it be the HD's responsibility to make sure they marry another HD person?



CuddleBug said:


> Sex to me is the glue and intimacy that hubby and wifee share. It bonds you so close together more than hanging together and talking will ever do. Sex unstresses us, helps us deal with tough days and times in life. Denying a spouse sex is cruel and not worthy in a marriage.


I'll agree to an extent, but I'd like to qualify it with the adjective 'good.' Good sex is the glue in a marriage. Bad sex makes it worse. I suspect many of these so called LD people really just don't enjoy sex with their spouse and have tried to get their partner to improve, but it hasn't worked. So they just gave up on the idea of sex in the marriage.

"Haha, you suck, I am not having sex with you, so there!" is abusive.

"I would like to have sex with you, if you showered more, and reciprocated and appeared to care about my pleasure instead of hurting me for your own" is not abusive.

But in conclusion, no, not getting sex as often as you want, or even not at all, is not even in the same league as getting cheated on.


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## Muse1976 (Apr 25, 2015)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Well, now we're back into those other long threads, so I'm not going to rehash it. But one of the key things we established was that when there is a libido mismatch the LDs do not see themselves as the problem! Why should the LD be the one to change to accommodate the HD? Why can't the HD change to accommodate the LD? Why shouldn't it be the HD's responsibility to make sure they marry another HD person?


From what I have seen most HD's do change and or suppress their drives to match the Lower Drive spouse. To do otherwise is to force yourself upon them, and that my friend is rape.

:scratchhead:


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Well, now we're back into those other long threads, so I'm not going to rehash it. But one of the key things we established was that when there is a libido mismatch the LDs do not see themselves as the problem! Why should the LD be the one to change to accommodate the HD? Why can't the HD change to accommodate the LD? Why shouldn't it be the HD's responsibility to make sure they marry another HD person?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you read many of the threads here you'll find a large number of the LD spouses managed to make the effort during their engagement and then suddenly remember that they weren't interested once they had the ring on their finger.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

ScrambledEggs said:


> These questions do not belong together.
> 
> The cheater is always to blame for the cheating.
> 
> Witholding sex is wrong, but then who wants duty sex? If the marriage is cold, deal with it, accept it, or part ways. Betrayal is always a choice.


:iagree:

I wish I could like this times 1000.

Duty sex is not love. It is desperation.


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## dash74 (Jan 3, 2015)

WonkyNinja said:


> What other post?
> 
> We did devorce, hence the XW.


The op's http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/265610-so-then-could-called-sexless-marriage.html


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

WonkyNinja said:


> If you read many of the threads here you'll find a large number of the LD spouses managed to make the effort during their engagement and then suddenly remember that they weren't interested once they had the ring on their finger.


I don't doubt there are some women who do that, and I sure don't have a very high opinion of them. The solution there is divorce, because they have married a liar.

But for the most part, I think that a great many things change after marriage, things that affect sex.

The husband may stop doing housework - now that he has a wife, that stuff is her job. She thought she was getting an equal partner, but no, switcheroo!

The husband may stop wooing and courting his wife; after all, they're married now so he doesn't have to do that crap anymore. Suddenly the wife wonders what happened to the kind and generous man she thought she was marrying.

The wife may stop maintaining her looks and gain weight or stop plucking or shaving or whatever. It's too much work when she's already won her man. She thinks he loves her for who she is and shouldn't care, but he's aghast that his attraction for her has diminished.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

The problem is LD spouses DON'T start off being LD. They are usually very open to sex, wanting it, in the first few years (say 2-3) of marriage or a relationship. My partner was very horny initially, and wanted sex each night, though I would have then been happy to skip it sometimes!

What happens is that familiarity breeds contempt, and women (and sometimes men too) lose their interest in sex after 2-3 years of marriage to the same partner.



CuddleBug said:


> If LD spouses won't do any real changing and taking care of their other halves needs, they should remain single until they figure out why they are LD or marry a LD spouse.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> The problem is LD spouses DON'T start off being LD. They are usually very open to sex, wanting it, in the first few years (say 2-3) of marriage or a relationship. My partner was very horny initially, and wanted sex each night, though I would have then been happy to skip it sometimes!
> 
> What happens is that familiarity breeds contempt, and women (and sometimes men too) lose their interest in sex after 2-3 years of marriage to the same partner.


Yes men do this too as men are just as likely to make their marriage sexless as women are.

What kinds of things have you done to try to turn this around?


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Yes men do this too as men are just as likely to make their marriage sexless as women are.
> 
> What kinds of things have you done to try to turn this around?


Tried everything. Being nicer. More caring. Putting off my orgasms so she can come more often. Buying toys for her. Watching porn together, that turns her on. Struggling to help her with job problems. Taking care of the kids and helping with more work in the home!

Nothing works.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How many hours a week do you and she spend together, just the two of you doing things that you enjoy?

What percentage of the work in the house do you do? What percentage of time with child care?

How many hours a week do each of you work at your jobs?

I'm trying to get a better picture of what's going on.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

brownmale said:


> Mostly, the 'cheater' in a relationship is blamed. What's overlooked often is that in a HD-LD relationship, the frustration that one faces after being consistently deprived sex... a topic not many would want to talk about. Specially if they're men...


I didn't read any more than the first reply. Don't know how this thread ended up. I suppose some arguing.

The title asks:


> Do you think being deprived sex is as bad as cheating?


I think being deprived of sex is bad. I think it's a problem and hurts the person being deprived at a personal level. If the deprived spouse truly loves their partner, they might even decide to stay and take it. They may decide to look for a new partner. They might decide to divorce.


I think cheating is usually done in the dark or behind backs. As with being deprived, the person cheating has similar choices. Those are the ways I believe they can be compared, but really the only ways. 

It's up to each of us, as adults, to accept responsibility for our own actions. Comparing evil for evil, if you will, doesn't solve anything. It only justifies or attempts to justify bad behavior.


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

brownmale said:


> Mostly, the 'cheater' in a relationship is blamed. What's overlooked often is that in a HD-LD relationship, the frustration that one faces after being consistently deprived sex... a topic not many would want to talk about. Specially if they're men...


NO WAY.... because you have a choice if you want to stay in this relationship or not and carry on having to put up with hardly no sex. Its a choice you make.

Nothing is as bad as cheating in my book. I do not think there is an excuse for it IMO.

I do not think its overlooked the lack of sex. I just think a lot of people cant abide cheating in any way.

Leave if your not happy that is my opinion.


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## committed_guy (Nov 22, 2011)

> Do you think being deprived sex is as bad as cheating?


YES!

At the time I thought we considered ourselves a Christian marriage. I did an in-depth study on this topic. I read not only the Bible but also many books, both secular and non. I tried talking to my wife but she held to the belief that I must have some kind of sex addiction problem if I need sex to have a satisfying relationship.

I am convinced that the Bible teaches that just as we are to not cheat on our spouse but in the same degree to enjoy sex often with our spouse. 

I have never been in a church that teaches this. And "christians" want to know why divorce rate is the same in and out of the church.

For the decade or so that my wife was withholding and controlling sex it felt like constant adultery to me. A sin she doesn't think is her problem and hasn't repented of. The breaking point for me was when she wanted to go on a missions trip. I did too but I wanted to get this sex issue figured out because I felt like it was separating us spiritually. Long story short, she basically told me she didn't care about my needs. That was the last straw for me and since then my view of our marriage has forever changed.

To me this is like an affair that she had/is having, that she never apologized for.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Withholding and cheating are both acts of sexual unfaithfulness and both are actions likely to destroy a marriage. The consequences of cheating may be somewhat worse because it involves at least one more person. Cheating might destroy two families instead of just one. The withholder isn't morally superior to the cheater. Both break the same vows.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

The hard line regarding cheating a lot of people seem to have is interesting to me.

There are exceptions to every moral rule-- even murder (e.g., self defense)--- but somehow cheating is "never" OK.

I think relationships are complicated.

Many people will look at a dead bedroom situation and think, "well, the withholding spouse must have her reasons." They're probably right.

What's interesting to me is that a lot of people don't even entertain the same type of question in a cheating situation.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

1. Next to zero. The kids take up all her time. They even sleep with her. We went out together once in like 12 years (when her mum offered to hold the fort at home). But the kids are so spoilt that they played hell, and that put an end to this option.

I'd love to spend more time with her, to work out plans together, to even do some work together... we could have been (and were) a good team.

2. Cooking + laundry = Minimal, about 5%
Kids = about 40-50%
Earning = about 90% 
Parental support = 60-70%

3. Me, about 70-85 hours. Lot of working from home, so I can multitask with childcare and parental support.
She, about 15-20 hours a week. Add to this the house-related work.



EleGirl said:


> How many hours a week do you and she spend together, just the two of you doing things that you enjoy?
> 
> What percentage of the work in the house do you do? What percentage of time with child care?
> 
> ...


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Where you believe cheating ranks on the "bad" scale notwithstanding, on balance its a little hard to feel a whole lot of sympathy for a betrayed spouse who you discover was withholding sex. (albeit, in some cases its understandable. If that's the case, the cheating would be a good excuse to ditch them and find someone you are interest in. Life is not meant to live with voluntarily live with someone who makes you feel like hell)


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

brownmale said:


> 3. Me, about 70-85 hours. Lot of working from home, so I can multitask with childcare and parental support.
> She, about 15-20 hours a week. Add to this the house-related work.


Sounds to me like you've got a spoiled brat on your hands Dawg. (in addition to the kids) Face it my man, you helped make her that way. You need to change the dynamic by off-loading more work on to her via spending time doing stuff you want to do away from home. What's she going to do, cut you off?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Is the definition of withholding, consciously and knowingly refusing to have sex with someone because you want to punish them for some perceived injustice in order to teach them some sort of lesson?

If that is the definition, I've never done that. I've said no when I didn't feel good, was ill, or I was dirty and sweaty from work all day and felt disgusting, when I was too exhausted, and when her daughter was home(due to the volume of my ex when...and my embarrassment). Though, I told my ex I never wanted to raise another child or have her daughter move in and that was a hard boundary. I told her flat out, it would affect our sex life negatively. That wasn't meant as a punishment. It was meant as a matter of fact due to my knowledge of myself. She agreed and then went back on it after we married. Of course, I should accept whatever my wife desires, right? Nope.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Is the definition of withholding, consciously and knowingly refusing to have sex with someone because you want to punish them for some perceived injustice in order to teach them some sort of lesson?


I've never done that, either. In fact, I never once turned my STBXH down when he asked for sex. Not one time. He just didn't ask for it all that often, and after initiating it a few times myself and being rejected, I stopped initiating it. I'm sure in his vast revisionist history, he told the OW and anyone else who'd listen that he was in a "low sex" or "loveless" marriage and that I was the one doing the withholding.

Yes, consciously and maliciously withholding sex from your partner who has communicated very clearly to you that he really desires having it with you as some kind of control power play is terrible. Still not as terrible as cheating, but certainly terrible.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

ThePheonix said:


> Where you believe cheating ranks on the "bad" scale notwithstanding, on balance its a little hard to feel a whole lot of sympathy for a betrayed spouse who you discover was withholding sex. (albeit, in some cases its understandable. If that's the case, the cheating would be a good excuse to ditch them and find someone you are interest in. Life is not meant to live with voluntarily live with someone who makes you feel like hell)


It's impossible for me to feel the slightest bit of sympathy for a deliberate withholder who ends of being "cheated" on. One cannot steal abandoned property. If you believe something rightfully belongs to you, you have an obligation to take care of it. If a mother refused to feed her child for months or years, in the miraculous event it was still alive, would she be victimized in any way of someone else fed the child? 
If I shoved my wife away every time she came to me for affection and I daily called her "ugly" or "disgusting", who, but me, would be to blame if she finally, in desperation, turned to another guy to get a little bit of the decent, human treatment I fraudulently vowed to give her when I proposed and on the day I married her?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> It's impossible for me to feel the slightest bit of sympathy for a deliberate withholder who ends of being "cheated" on. *One cannot steal abandoned property. *If you believe something rightfully belongs to you, you have an obligation to take care of it. If a mother refused to feed her child for months or years, in the miraculous event it was still alive, would she be victimized in any way of someone else fed the child?
> If I shoved my wife away every time she came to me for affection and I daily called her "ugly" or "disgusting", who, but me, would be to blame if she finally, in desperation, turned to another guy to get a little bit of the decent, human treatment I fraudulently vowed to give her when I proposed and on the day I married her?


So if a person ignores their spouse for a long period of time, years, you'd understand them having an emotional affair?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

A family member had a camp. It was far enough away, he wasn't living there. He used it sporadically. He sunk a great deal of work, money, effort, and emotion into it's improvement, in order to make it as comfortable as possible. He used it a few times a year, mostly during hunting season, but a few times through the summer, also.

I guess it wasn't his even though he had a signed contract saying it was?

I just want to say that I think it is wrong to talk about a spouse as a piece of property. Somehow it seems very controlling to think that way. People aren't property. When we start using analogies like that, we make them less than human with opinions that don't matter. I'm disappointed in myself for moving this idea along. I just felt it was a poor analogy and another excuse, as usual by the same folks. I'm not surprised.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> So if a person ignores their spouse for a long period of time, years, you'd understand them having an emotional affair?


You didn't ask me directly, but right or wrong, that's what often happens when you ignore and take your spouse for granted. To argue that a "regular" sex life is not a major expectation in marriage, that a person feels short changed when they are not at least in a range of what other couples are doing, and that it generates an array of negative self worth emotions when they get constantly rejected, would be redundant. 
So yes, like a starving person will steal, or a person seeks painful and expensive plastic surgery to fix real or imagined imperfections I can, and I think most can, understand why such a situation as you describe would result in an affair. ( I cannot understand why you specified on an emotional affair. If you're going for that, why not go ahead and get your money's worth.)


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> So if a person ignores their spouse for a long period of time, years, you'd understand them having an emotional affair?


If they were capable of showing their spouse attention but they willfully and serially neglected and disrespected their spouse for a very extended period, I would not only understand an emotional affair, I'd be astonished if that's all the neglected spouse engaged in. People have reasonable needs and if we don't take care of our spouses, eventually someone else will. None of us cease being human just because the person who lives in our house chooses to emotionally leave the marriage for months or years at a time.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

It really depends on why you aren't having sex with your spouse. There are valid reasons why one person cuts off sex vs. an affair which may have factors that contributed to it but the act itself is not excusable.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

unbelievable said:


> If they were capable of showing their spouse attention but they willfully and serially neglected and disrespected their spouse for a very extended period, I would not only understand an emotional affair, I'd be astonished if that's all the neglected spouse engaged in. People have reasonable needs and if we don't take care of our spouses, eventually someone else will. None of us cease being human just because the person who lives in our house chooses to emotionally leave the marriage for months or years at a time.


If you feel that serially neglected, just leave.

I certainly understand why someone who feels that way would rather be with someone else. So leave your spouse, get a divorce, and go be with whomever you want.

Cheating on them, but continuing to live with them, using them for the things they do still do for you, while hiding an affair from them and lying to them about it is cowardly at best, and monstrous at worst.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Is the definition of withholding, consciously and knowingly refusing to have sex with someone because you want to punish them for some perceived injustice in order to teach them some sort of lesson?


Sometimes sex-depriving just happens because one partner has a markedly lower sex drive, and just doesn't care or bother to think about what happens to the other....

It need not be intentional. But the impact is the same.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

WonkyNinja said:


> If you read many of the threads here you'll find a large number of the LD spouses managed to make the effort during their engagement and then suddenly remember that they weren't interested once they had the ring on their finger.


Frankly, I don't think that is deliberate, and won't even accuse my sex-withholding partner of doing it on purpose. They just can't help it... and either don't care or don't see the impact it has on the relationship.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Nomorebeans said:


> If you feel that serially neglected, just leave.
> 
> I certainly understand why someone who feels that way would rather be with someone else. So leave your spouse, get a divorce, and go be with whomever you want.
> 
> Cheating on them, but continuing to live with them, using them for the things they do still do for you, while hiding an affair from them and lying to them about it is cowardly at best, and monstrous at worst.


That's like telling a Jew in Auschwitz if they were unhappy with their situation to just commit suicide. The party who first decided to emotionally leave the marriage can also leave the marriage. Leaving a neglectful spouse very often means leaving one's children and committing financial suicide. If the neglectful spouse wishes to leave with only that which they came into the relationship with, divorce would be a more logical option. If a hateful, self-centered, neglectful bat would emotionally abuse me, why on earth would I leave my children primarily in her care? I could rescue myself easily enough with a divorce but would it be fair to leave helpless children in her custody?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

A woman who is frequently punched in the face by her husband is also free to leave but how many would choose to do so if there was an 80% or higher chance that she would have to leave her children with her abuser?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> That's like telling a Jew in Auschwitz if they were unhappy with their situation to just commit suicide. The party who first decided to emotionally leave the marriage can also leave the marriage. Leaving a neglectful spouse very often means leaving one's children and committing financial suicide. If the neglectful spouse wishes to leave with only that which they came into the relationship with, divorce would be a more logical option. If a hateful, self-centered, neglectful bat would emotionally abuse me, why on earth would I leave my children primarily in her care? I could rescue myself easily enough with a divorce but would it be fair to leave helpless children in her custody?


It works the same way for some of the "withholding" spouses. They've been neglected in some way to the point where they don't want sex with their spouse anymore. Leaving is just as hard for them as it is for the other. Losing their kids half the time, financial issues, breaking up a family, losing their home, etc. 
You can go around and around playing 'what came first' but I doubt either of them are happy.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Depression is often manifested by withdrawal from normal life activities and it is linked with low-libido and inability to show affection. Considering at least 20% of women will be diagnosed with depression at some point in a country where at least 10% don't have health insurance and recognizing that mental illnesses are frequently not reported, it's logical to assume the number of women who are suffering or will suffer from mental illness is probably well over 30%. Men can also suffer from depression, bipolar, and a variety of other mental illnesses. Do you divorce someone because they are sick? Do you leave your kids with a mentally ill person? Leaving isn't always the simple matter that some folks would suggest.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Depression is often manifested by withdrawal from normal life activities and it is linked with low-libido and inability to show affection. Considering at least 20% of women will be diagnosed with depression at some point in a country where at least 10% don't have health insurance and recognizing that mental illnesses are frequently not reported, it's logical to assume the number of women who are suffering or will suffer from mental illness is probably well over 30%. Men can also suffer from depression, bipolar, and a variety of other mental illnesses. Do you divorce someone because they are sick? Do you leave your kids with a mentally ill person? * Leaving isn't always the simple matter that some folks would suggest.*


No it's not. Not for the spouse that is saying no to sex either. 

FTR- I have depression and anxiety, likely some PTSD as well. Had PPP (psychosis) with my first, PPD with my second. Those numbers you are talking about- not all the women diagosed are bad enough that they don't respond to treatment and/or can't leave your kids with them. There are more extreme cases, and I think I've read before that your wife is, but those numbers would be a % of that overall %. KWIM?


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

This has been a remarkable thread.
There are very divergent and passionate views by those on either side.
oddly enough, I personally find almost every poster here has some validity in their thinking.
in spite of the differences.

it is a very complex, perplexing, and serious issue.
definitely no easy answers


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

I think everyone agrees that purposeful, and indifferent witholding of sex is bad.
some say as bad as cheating. Others say no, but bad nontheless.

then there are those who defend witholders who have justifiable reasons to withold. I would agree with most of that. There are justifiable reasons. But in my opinion, the witholding is only justifiable under extraordinary circumstances.
there are just too many out there in my opinion who withold for the wrong and selfish reasons. 

One poster said "who wants duty sex?" Duty sex done with the right motivations is righteous. Duty sex done with a bad attitude is not. Its selfish, and goes into the same trashbin as purposeful witholding.

and I wouldnt let LD People off the hook either. Sorry, way too many excuses.
LD and HD must try to meet in the middle.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

jorgegene said:


> I think everyone agrees that purposeful, and indifferent witholding of sex is bad.
> some say as bad as cheating. Others say no, but bad nontheless.
> 
> then there are those who defend witholders who have justifiable reasons to withold. I would agree with most of that. There are justifiable reasons. But in my opinion, the witholding is only justifiable under extraordinary circumstances.
> ...


I guess it depends on what that extraordinary justification is. 

For the women who are not having sex because they are not fulfilled in the relationship overall, still putting out and meeting his needs may not help anything and can just make things worse - more resentment, feeling used, hating sex more and more the more you do it. That, IMO, can be harder to come back from and fix than no sex at all.


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

Having had both a very LD wife and a very HD wife I have a unique perspective.

My LD wife (fetishwife) story is in my older posts....she was ashamed of herself and her fetish PLUS just low drive period. She was almost anorgasmic until the end of our marriage (when she hit mid 40's she got just a tinge of drive).

My HD wife is from a foreign country that has no cultural real sex hangups. She is free about sex, very HD, experimental and almost always orgasmic.

If you are MISERABLE with the LD spouse, I dont think its exactly cheating on you, but you are cheating yourself.

I did not believe I would ever find someone again after decision to divorce, but I found the sex partner of my dreams (2 years together so far and more sexy than ever).

Do let anyone cheat you if you have any way out, try to move on.

I had a huge price to pay, I lost my daughter which I dont think is my fault its just that she blamed divorce on me and wont have contact me with....

That is devastating and I hope it will change....but I was so so unhappy my marriage to LD (and low time together etc) had to end.

Nothing is perfect, but SEX is the least of my problems now and it used to the a constant agony.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

unbelievable said:


> That's like telling a Jew in Auschwitz if they were unhappy with their situation to just commit suicide. The party who first decided to emotionally leave the marriage can also leave the marriage. Leaving a neglectful spouse very often means leaving one's children and committing financial suicide. If the neglectful spouse wishes to leave with only that which they came into the relationship with, divorce would be a more logical option. If a hateful, self-centered, neglectful bat would emotionally abuse me, why on earth would I leave my children primarily in her care? I could rescue myself easily enough with a divorce but would it be fair to leave helpless children in her custody?


Your analogies are ridiculous. Please don't compare someone who isn't getting all the sex he or she wants to a Jew in a concentration camp.

My STBX and I weren't having sex very often in the last few years of our marriage. We both felt neglected by each other. Neither of us was initiating it - it just seemed like we had both lost that kind of interest in each other. He never talked about it. I initiated a couple of conversations about what we could do to try to make things better. He shut those down - didn't think it needed to be discussed, didn't want to talk about anything "upsetting." So I suggested to him two years ago that maybe we should separate, and that I could leave if he didn't want to be the one to do that. I had no one in mind for myself and didn't think he did at the time, even though he had been particularly critical and suddenly was snapping at me and my son quite a bit for no apparent reason, to the point that even his sister who was visiting us noticed it and apologized for his behavior to me. He was showing a great deal of passive-aggressive resentment, so I offered an out to him, saying we should both have a chance to be with someone we are physically and emotionally in love with. He talked me out of it, said he was satisfied with the way things were, thought we had a great relationship in every other respect, we should stay together, and I should stop worrying about it.

About a year later, he started having an affair. I found out about it only "by accident" - he had no intention of ever telling me.

Is that fair? Was I someone who was deliberately depriving him of sex (that he was not asking for and not seemingly expecting from me)?

Some of you have maybe had these spouses who used the deliberate withholding of sex/rejection of your advances as some kind of power play to fvck with you. Yes, that's very wrong. But your excuse for not leaving that spouse and having a clandestine affair instead being that you can't afford to leave, or you might fvck up your relationship with your kids, is lame. How much do you think finding out you've been cheating and lying is going to foster a good parent-child relationship when that happens? Because they always find out, one way or another.

My son says the thing that bothers him about what his Dad has done the most is that he didn't just leave honorably a year or two ago, before he'd met someone else and started sneaking around behind our backs with her. He thinks he is a coward - that's his word for him, not mine.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Two points --

Sex is usually hot in the first year or two or three of marriage/a relationship. So what guarantee does one have that a HD wife will not turn into a LD one in that time-frame? My wife was very HD at the start of the marriage. Hard to believe she wanted sex more than me then...

Secondly, divorce is often touted as a solution in these fora. How do you tell your children the reason why you had to split, without coming across as a sex fiend? Would they even understand what sexual-deprivation means?



fetishwife said:


> Having had both a very LD wife and a very HD wife I have a unique perspective.
> 
> My LD wife (fetishwife) story is in my older posts....she was ashamed of herself and her fetish PLUS just low drive period. She was almost anorgasmic until the end of our marriage (when she hit mid 40's she got just a tinge of drive).
> 
> ...


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

brownmale said:


> Two points --
> 
> Sex is usually hot in the first year or two or three of marriage/a relationship. So what guarantee does one have that a HD wife will not turn into a LD one in that time-frame? My wife was very HD at the start of the marriage. Hard to believe she wanted sex more than me then...
> 
> Secondly, divorce is often touted as a solution in these fora. How do you tell your children the reason why you had to split, without coming across as a sex fiend? Would they even understand what sexual-deprivation means?


These are good points. But are you saying that cheating is better than splitting? In my experience, eventually, cheaters always get found out.

This is the error in logic many of you arguing for cheating are making: You're assuming that if the cheater never gets caught, it's OK to cheat under the circumstances.

Is there anyone in this discussion who has cheated because they felt deprived of sex at home, and got away with it?

And if you did, could you easily look yourself in the mirror and sleep in your bed with your spouse at night?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> Two points --
> 
> Sex is usually hot in the first year or two or three of marriage/a relationship. So what guarantee does one have that a HD wife will not turn into a LD one in that time-frame? My wife was very HD at the start of the marriage. Hard to believe she wanted sex more than me then...
> 
> Secondly, divorce is often touted as a solution in these fora. How do you tell your children the reason why you had to split, without coming across as a sex fiend? Would they even understand what sexual-deprivation means?


You tell your children that you are getting a divorce because you two do not get along and are very unhappy together.

Then you show them how even in divorce two people can co-parent, cooperate and treat each other well.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The way analogies work is they compare two concepts, each sharing some common features. They do not have to be equal in all respects.
Making someone choose between two evils is not seriously offering them a choice. An abused spouse and a concentration camp inmate are each innocent and not responsible for their plight. In both cases, the person who was doing the abusing could simply just stop. Your personal example doesn't really apply because it sounds like both of you were mutually agreeable to having infrequent sex. That's quite a bit different than the case of a normally functioning heterosexual being essentially trapped in a unilateral no-sex relationship for months, years, or decades. If my analogy didn't accurately describe your situation, it wasn't for you. I assure you that many others would immediately grasp the similarities.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

No, I don't think depriving sex from your spouse is as bad as cheating but I'm not surprised if a deprived spouse that's getting zero sex cheats on their spouse. 

The withholding spouse better not be surprised either. What did they expect?


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

1. For me in my first marriage sex was a problem from the start for us. My ex was very baseline LD and had an unusual fetish issue also that she did not want to express (I didnt know till 10 years later). It did change a little, in the years before the divorce her drive went up slightly, and that actually woke me up to realizing that I wanted a more sexual marriage....it was not sexless, it was weekly or lightly more for most of our marriage...but she was anorgasmic although she really tried to please me in her way and was mildly experimental...in the end the truth was "sex it not an important part of my life." In the year prior to our divorce we were having sex a lot, like 4 times a week often, but it was rarely out of her desire. I got tired of providing all the sexual energy for both of us. Her sexuality was almost totally dependent upon me pushing it.

2. Ive been with my current wife 2 full years and the sex is daily or more than daily (outside of a 3 or so days during her period when she has some cramping and feels uncomfortable but she will still try to please me anyway if she is not feeling awful) but its also still evolving and also getting more experimental etc. My current wife is also highly concerned that I will become LD for her as Im much much older....but I take T shots and mentally Im HD.

My current HD wife has had the occasional meltdown when I was unenthusiastic....(very rare). 

For my HD wife, feeling sexual and wanted is important to her self esteem, and she can be hurt if she feels rejected (and I dont ever want to reject her on purpose..but if Im just not in the mood I really really try hard for her and not show it...not because Im afraid, but because I want to please her)...

Of course....

Neither of us can guarantee that the other wont change, but we talk about sex, our sex drives, hormone therapy (as Im on it now) and even possible for her someday in the very distant future if she had issues with drive. 

If we ever have a baby Im of course worried that might decrease her drive, but for some women it does not. My current wife gets horny at the drop of a hat, just a 1 minute romantic scene in a non porn (or porn) movie, a kiss on her back, the right words, often just totally spontaneously...

My ex stated to me that ALMOST NOTHING made her horny (except thinking about braces teeth pain, that was it and once in a while when she had a movie star crush). Nothing else...nothing about me for sure.

The future is not guaranteed, but this is what I mean by my two different experiences with LD and HD!

Im sure we are still excited from newness even after 2 full years of daily sex...but I am trying to make sure we combat inevitable boredom with toys, fantasy, role play, etc.

I doubt we will ever get to swinging due to both of us being jealous types so far (her more than me), but if we really get bored of each other, I would rather offer her the option of open variety with me involved, than risk an affair.

I plan on communicating with her about sex openly for the rest of our lives together (I hope the rest of my life).

We talk about sex issues together more easily than we talk about some other things! We are more likely to argue and fight about the other biggies, money and children I think than sex.

But YES after my first life, I have fear that my current wife will change....I am trying to keep in mind that its important to keep it fresh and exciting as much as we can, while making sure she feels safe and loved and is not pushed into anything uncomfortable.

However, every time I suggest something, she seems game....(but moods do change..)...sex toys we are doing and costume role play is something she has suggested, and she is also interested in light bondage.

That is what I mean by LD vs HD..as far as my life has played out so far its been an incredible contrast.

The divorce was NOT only about sex though...it was about my exwife being a workaholic and just not being loving and affectionate either....in any case, my daughter got pissed and me for initiating the divorce and finding another woman and thats the price I have paid. But it was not ONLY about sex....it was about a loving close relationship.




QUOTE=brownmale;12597362]Two points --

Sex is usually hot in the first year or two or three of marriage/a relationship. So what guarantee does one have that a HD wife will not turn into a LD one in that time-frame? My wife was very HD at the start of the marriage. Hard to believe she wanted sex more than me then...

Secondly, divorce is often touted as a solution in these fora. How do you tell your children the reason why you had to split, without coming across as a sex fiend? Would they even understand what sexual-deprivation means?[/QUOTE]


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

Come on, an abused spouse can always leave, as hard as it may be.....if they need police and courts to help so be it....

No one could leave a concentration camp alive until liberated.

Sorry, that is really a very very inappropriate analogy....

NO MARRIAGE is as bad a a NAZI CAMP...we really should not be talking about such things here that could really hurt someone.

If you feel your marriage is like a Nazi camp, all the more reason to get a divorce and leave no matter how hard it is....

I wont comment on this again.





unbelievable said:


> The way analogies work is they compare two concepts, each sharing some common features. They do not have to be equal in all respects.
> Making someone choose between two evils is not seriously offering them a choice. An abused spouse and a concentration camp inmate are each innocent and not responsible for their plight. In both cases, the person who was doing the abusing could simply just stop. Your personal example doesn't really apply because it sounds like both of you were mutually agreeable to having infrequent sex. That's quite a bit different than the case of a normally functioning heterosexual being essentially trapped in a unilateral no-sex relationship for months, years, or decades. If my analogy didn't accurately describe your situation, it wasn't for you. I assure you that many others would immediately grasp the similarities.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

It was bad enough to be betrayed but to be denied for another year or more after that was a further humiliation. During an argument some time before I discovered her affair my WS told me she was not attracted to me. I took it as an insult alright but let it slide because so much else was going on. When I heard that again from her during a false recon fight 12 months after DDay it was the last time I was going to be told. I finally got the memo.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Nomorebeans said:


> These are good points. But are you saying that cheating is better than splitting? In my experience, eventually, cheaters always get found out.


I'm definitely NOT saying that cheating is better than splitting, or even advocating cheating.

All that I'm saying is that sexual deprival should be seen for what it is -- serious, couple-splittingn and possible-leading-to-cheating activity.

This would hopefully make LD partners see things in context. And thus avoid BOTH cheating and splitting...


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> You tell your children that you are getting a divorce because you two do not get along and are very unhappy together.
> 
> Then you show them how even in divorce two people can co-parent, cooperate and treat each other well.


"Do not get along"? "Unhappy together"?

But these are very unfortunate verbal camoflages to hide the situation. Or even pretend that it is something what it is not.

We do get along. It's only that she has been depriving me sex. 

We've been friends and lovers for years. I like her. Her body still turns me on, and there's nobody else in the world I'd like to fvck more than her! 

She's been depriving me sex (for whatever complex set of reasons) and doesn't seem to care.

We are not "unhappy together". It just the lack of sex which makes me feel terribly, terribly frustrated and unhuman. And for those who think men are only concerned about sex, I'd say you probably don't understand the role of sex in a man's life.... and how it helps him to connect with the woman who has chosen him for life partner. (Increasingly, women too have begun complaining of sexual deprival.)

This is a cry of pain from those who have been deprived. 

I see no reason why children either need to be told lies or made to believe that it was their irrational father who broke up the family!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

brownmale said:


> I'm definitely NOT saying that cheating is better than splitting, or even advocating cheating.
> 
> All that I'm saying is that sexual deprival should be seen for what it is -- serious, couple-splittingn and possible-leading-to-cheating activity.
> 
> This would hopefully make LD partners see things in context. And thus avoid BOTH cheating and splitting...


In mature adults, I think the serious nature of a lack of sex in a relationship where it is expected is important to understand. I agree it can lead to couples splitting apart or cheating, depending upon the maturity and character of the individual who feels deprived and entitled. And yes, sexual gratification doe seem like it is a requirement in a marriage. However, with all of the threads about two LDs getting together, would that then mean sexual gratification is not a requirement for marriages? 

That's what I believe happens when we start to go down the path of you did this so I can do that type of justifications. It's childish and doesn't really solve anything. I think it all starts with communication and a desire to understand our partners. It then takes some effort toward a balanced solution. It then moves to determining an agreed upon time limit for accomplishment of goals set. 

At that point, two can determine how to proceed and can feel like they have done all they could. Separation and divorce would ensue. After that divorce, it's up to the individuals how they want to proceed. Under normal circumstances with mature individuals, that would be the end of it.

In my opinion, few have that kind of maturity and character. They want gratification and their way right now, or else.


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## Fitnessfan (Nov 18, 2014)

Cheating is worse but being deprived is no cup of tea.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> And yes, sexual gratification doe seem like it is a requirement in a marriage. However, with all of the threads about two LDs getting together, would that then mean sexual gratification is not a requirement for marriages?


If we go with the concept that "one size fits all" that would be true. However, we'd be getting far away from reality if we did. Its all the way you look at it. If two LDs are in a relationship, I can argue they are sexually gratified. Sex is like so many other things in marriage. Being on different pages leads to trouble.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> If we go with the concept that "one size fits all" that would be true. However, we'd be getting far away from reality if we did. Its all the way you look at it. If two LDs are in a relationship, I can argue they are sexually gratified. Sex is like so many other things in marriage. Being on different pages leads to trouble.


This thingy of two LDs being in a relationship is notional and an assumption. 

HD and LD are relative terms.

Even if two LDs got into a relationship, among them one would be the higher LD and the other would be the lower LD! Then?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I don't think you can compare different bad things - there is no scale. Is it worse to cheat on your taxes or to kick a puppy?

Cheating is bad. How bad depends on how you partner feels when they find out. Denying sex is bad - how bad depends on how your partner feels when they are denied. Neither should be done in a relationship.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

brownmale said:


> HD and LD are relative terms.
> 
> Even if two LDs got into a relationship, among them one would be the higher LD and the other would be the lower LD! Then?


Even if you don't get it each and every time you want it doesn't mean you're not sexually gratified. It a range thing. In another thread I argued that sex twice a week for a HD person would be sufficient to keep major problems, in respect to frequency, at a manageable level.



richardsharpe said:


> there is no scale. Is it worse to cheat on your taxes or to kick a puppy?


It would if it were my puppy. Its safer to cheat on your taxes. Like I've said, when I tell you I'll kill you over my dogs, you best believe me.


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## pana1089 (Feb 24, 2012)

Muse1976 said:


> Cheating is right after murder and rape in my book. That's coming from a man.
> 
> 3 choices in a sexless marriage.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but "living with it" should not be an option. One person should not have that much control over another such as to make them live without satisfying a very natural desire with their legal spouse.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

pana1089 said:


> I'm sorry, but "living with it" should not be an option. One person should not have that much control over another such as to make them live without satisfying a very natural desire with their legal spouse.


That's why they make that little thing called divorce. It separates the two permanently and they are no longer connected in any way so they are free to pursue whomever, as they please. 

I'm not sure why folks think they are forced to live with it? It doesn't make sense with the divorce laws the past twenty-five, thirty or more years, unless you wanted the guys money or something and he won't put out?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Fitnessfan said:


> You may be forced to live with it because you still love that person. You really don't want to be in a sexless marriage and it is very painful but it doesn't make you not love them anymore.


What is it you would love about a person who does not meet your basic needs? Maybe the question needs to be, how long will you love them if they do not meet your basic needs? I suppose it depends on how important that need is to you, and how long you've been living with a smile on your face while seething with anger inside and keeping the peace for the family? 

Do you think there is something wrong with that?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Fitnessfan said:


> You may be *forced* to live with it because you still love that person. You really don't want to be in a sexless marriage and it is very painful but it doesn't make you not love them anymore.


You aren't forced to do anything. That is a choice you make. And that's fine if it is but remember you are allowed to change they choice anytime. You are not trapped


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## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I don't think you can compare different bad things - there is no scale. Is it worse to cheat on your taxes or to kick a puppy?
> 
> Cheating is bad. How bad depends on how you partner feels when they find out. Denying sex is bad - how bad depends on how your partner feels when they are denied. Neither should be done in a relationship.


This makes sense. There is no need to compare. I used to be judgmental about infidelity. I am not anymore as I have been in a sexless marriage and understand what it is like to have someone deprive you of your needs.

If someone has a loving partner, I would never understand infidelity. But if your partner ignores your needs and divorce is not an option, then who am I to judge? One thing I do believe is that in many circumstances, withholding sex from your partner for a long period of time is a betrayal of your vows. Cheating is a betrayal of vows. Does that make them comparable? I don't know and it doesn't matter. They are both wrong. 

People are looking for happiness and I don't think people are looking for some kind of moral equivalence between deprived sex and cheating. I know I am not. I have not been unfaithful but if I was, I know I would not feel good about it. Even if I tried to justify it by telling myself my needs were not being met, I know I would not feel good. But I cannot and will not judge others.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I've been judged all my life for anything I've done that wasn't quite what someone else agreed with. I've been judged for things I did that were really wrong and things that were not such a big deal. I see nothing wrong with not wanting to marry, date or be friends with someone who has cheated. We have to remember that those we befriend we allow to have influence in our lives. It would be disastrous to have a faithful person get together with an unfaithful person and have them influence them into cheating. If you don't think that happens regularly, you're mistaken. It happens in all parts of life. You have to protect yourself and be vigilant, if you want to have good character. 

I suppose I'm saying, in my little insignificant part of the world, I don't think it's wrong to judge whether or not I should hang out with a drug dealer, pimp or practicing prostitute. I don't think I should hang out with an active terrorist or a former murderer. I think it's important to decide what is good for me and what isn't. That's judging people. We do it all the time. 

I don't send them to jail or punish them. I just judge character and decide if I want to be around them, just as they do me. I expect them to judge me for character and make decisions based on that judgement, not harm me or punish me from that judgement. Maybe that's the difference in our understanding? 

I say, birds of a feather flock together, like mum used to say.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

This is what I observed during my time on these boards, every time a HD spouse comes here to complain of a sexless marriage, that there are other issues at play. Sexless marriages don't exist in a vacuum, you can't have a "perfect marriage except for the sex". Either the LD expressed concerns before the sex dried up, or the HD stopped caring for their hygiene or appearance. These things matter.

The best books to use are "His Needs/Her Needs" or Five Love Languages. These books will help address the cause of the problem, not just how to get more sex.

Many men only notice problems in the marriage when the sex suffers, not knowing or realizing if their spouse was suffering while doling out the sex. Being neglected and trying to voice your concerns while being ignored by the other party because the sex is still good causes a person to feel devalued and used. HD women feel this way too.

The HD would do well to listen to their spouse while the sex is still good.


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## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

techmom said:


> This is what I observed during my time on these boards, every time a HD spouse comes here to complain of a sexless marriage, that there are other issues at play. Sexless marriages don't exist in a vacuum, you can't have a "perfect marriage except for the sex". Either the LD expressed concerns before the sex dried up, or the HD stopped caring for their hygiene or appearance. These things matter.
> 
> The best books to use are "His Needs/Her Needs" or Five Love Languages. These books will help address the cause of the problem, not just how to get more sex.
> 
> ...



I cannot agree with all that you say here. I do agree that sometimes there is an underlying cause for the sex to stop and some of the issues you mention play a part, I am sure. But other times there is no reason given. Many women just don't want sex anymore and won't say why. That is why there are so many people on here discussing it.

My wife has never said to me why she no longer wants sex, something she used to enjoy more than I did. I have asked many times, including asking her if she is no longer attracted to me. She says that she is and I do believe her. If a reason was given, the problem would be easy to fix or divorce would seem like a better option. I would not want my wife to feel used and I do not believe she ever felt that way. I believe your statements are overly broad and generalizing.

The books you mention are excellent. I have read them and given them to my wife. They have not helped. I have come to believe that many women just cannot understand the emotional need (not just physical) that sex satisfies for a man, in spite of what is written in those books. It really is that simple. They don't understand that refusing sex is asking a man to feel unloved, something no one should have to accept. Because a particular woman can feel love without sex, she thinks her man can, too. But he can't. That is biology, how a man is made, and why so many men create such a higher priority for sex.


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## where_are_we (May 24, 2013)

Married but not happy said:


> My wife has never said to me why she no longer wants sex, something she used to enjoy more than I did.


I think this is "key." Not having a reason. 

I think they are both BAD and a blanket answer cannot be given for everyone. I was denied/rejected for the past few years and recently found out he had been cheating our entire 12 years together. 

For me, the pain of being denied was worse than the pain of finding out he was unfaithful. Now that I know it was because he was getting his needs met elsewhere, I feel validated. Now I have a reason for WHY he was withholding from me and I felt I had a valid reason to end the marriage.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Question: Do you think there could be any co-relation between the two? (I'm not trying to justify anything, just understand....)



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I don't think you can compare different bad things - there is no scale. Is it worse to cheat on your taxes or to kick a puppy?
> 
> Cheating is bad. How bad depends on how you partner feels when they find out. Denying sex is bad - how bad depends on how your partner feels when they are denied. Neither should be done in a relationship.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> Even if you don't get it each and every time you want it doesn't mean you're not sexually gratified. It a range thing. In another thread I argued that sex twice a week for a HD person would be sufficient to keep major problems, in respect to frequency, at a manageable level.


That is well put! Like the way you say it... 

Yes, it's not just a question of getting sex every time you want it. But sometimes, it's also how you get rejected, the insults that go with it. Etc. Etc. Having being the HD partner in a relationship, I faced a lot of this, and it can be really crushing.

Agree with you entirely that (for me at least), twice-a-week sex would be great, and if I could combine that with maybe one or two more occasions spent in masturbation, it would quite take care of all my sex needs.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

pana1089 said:


> I'm sorry, but "living with it" should not be an option. One person should not have that much control over another such as to make them live without satisfying a very natural desire with their legal spouse.


Living with it *is* an option. Specially for me.

Less hassles. Less drama. The family stays together (why should the kids suffer for one person's decision?)

Even if I get less or poor quality sex... am trying to improve that, but I wouldn't kill (a marriage) if it doesn't happen someday soon. Or even someday.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Fitnessfan said:


> You may be forced to live with it because you still love that person. You really don't want to be in a sexless marriage and it is very painful but it doesn't make you not love them anymore.


There is more than an element of truth in what @Fitnessfan says here. Each time I dream of sex, in 9/10 times it's with my wife (who has been depriving me sex). Earlier it used to be 10/10 times  She's the only one whom I've had sex with in my life (apart from one, long-distance emotional affair), and despite everything I'm grateful to her for understanding me at the sexual level in many ways....


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> What is it you would love about a person who does not meet your basic needs? Maybe the question needs to be, how long will you love them if they do not meet your basic needs? I suppose it depends on how important that need is to you, and how long you've been living with a smile on your face while seething with anger inside and keeping the peace for the family?
> 
> Do you think there is something wrong with that?


There must be some ways of at least convincing them to meet some of your needs...

I've spoken to her, told her what I feel... asked her if she's really serious when she says I could get my needs met elsewhere... Shown an interest in other women (just to make her jealous, which works!)

Contrary to the current discourse about 'marital rape', when it crosses a point, I just order her to 'get into the bedroom and take your clothes off'. Guess she realises somewhere deep down that all the depriving she's doing is not good for me or the marriage. She sometimes meekly follows, though occasionally with some subconscious reluctance.

Everyone is going to jump on me and say this is not great sex, or even enjoyable sex, but rather duty sex. At least it fulfils a need upto a point.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Very well made point. Makes a lot of sense... though women find it hard to understand, and it is quite counter-intuitive to be fair.

Just to give one example: I got involved with a divorced woman, and for 3-4 years we had some of the best sex I've ever had in my life. Not only was she great in bed, but she made me feel like a phenomenal lover too!

After some time, I kept wondering what made the difference. Since she was from another part of the globe, I asked her if women in her country were all so exceptional. (She was upset, obviously, as it underplayed her own speciality.) I began wondering if she was so sexually supercharged because she had been deprived of regular sex for say for 4-5 years since her divorce, and probably some years before that. Then the topic came up about her sex with her ex. She was clearly stumped with an answer, and kept giving what seemed to be a number of excuses, of how she felt under-appreciated, and how he treated her badly. 

Turns out that he split from her for a younger woman. Just at that time, my own wife had been treating me extremely badly, and it had reached a situation where I had to literally beg for sex, and she would order me to: "Come on, finish it fast."

We live in a tourist destination, and are always seeing very loving couples, of all ages, making it to near our home. I have long been telling my wife (she didn't believe) that they are probably each other's spouses  It's extremely rare for a marriage to continue long years with a lot of good sex thrown in.

This link explains some things: The female libido and 'the two-year itch' - Macleans.ca This might sound strange, but it is really borne out by many an experience: "The issue, we’ve long thought, is that women just aren’t interested; female desire is simply weaker, and stoked by intimacy and familiarity. But scientists are now wondering whether commitment itself might be the problem. In other words, it’s not a libido deficit, it’s monogamy—an unspoken two-year itch. As Bergner puts it, the female drug we’re really seeking is “monogamy’s cure.”"



Married but not happy said:


> I cannot agree with all that you say here. I do agree that sometimes there is an underlying cause for the sex to stop and some of the issues you mention play a part, I am sure. But other times there is no reason given. Many women just don't want sex anymore and won't say why. That is why there are so many people on here discussing it.
> 
> My wife has never said to me why she no longer wants sex, something she used to enjoy more than I did. I have asked many times, including asking her if she is no longer attracted to me. She says that she is and I do believe her. If a reason was given, the problem would be easy to fix or divorce would seem like a better option. I would not want my wife to feel used and I do not believe she ever felt that way. I believe your statements are overly broad and generalizing.
> 
> The books you mention are excellent. I have read them and given them to my wife. They have not helped. I have come to believe that many women just cannot understand the emotional need (not just physical) that sex satisfies for a man, in spite of what is written in those books. It really is that simple. They don't understand that refusing sex is asking a man to feel unloved, something no one should have to accept. Because a particular woman can feel love without sex, she thinks her man can, too. But he can't. That is biology, how a man is made, and why so many men create such a higher priority for sex.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good Evening
Yes. I have been very tempted to cheat during the times when my wife wouldn't sleep with me, but not at all when our sex life was good.

Is cheating justified if you are being deprived of sex in your marriage for reasons that you cannot fix? I think the answer is up to the individual. Personally, I think that if you consistently deny someone sex in a relationship for reasons that they cannot fix, then they are morally justified in cheating or leaving. Which they do is a judgement of which will cause the least harm.

I believe that in marriage sex and fidelity go hand in hand - they are part of the same oath. 




brownmale said:


> Question: Do you think there could be any co-relation between the two? (I'm not trying to justify anything, just understand....)


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Married but not happy said:


> I cannot agree with all that you say here. I do agree that sometimes there is an underlying cause for the sex to stop and some of the issues you mention play a part, I am sure. But other times there is no reason given. Many women just don't want sex anymore and won't say why. That is why there are so many people on here discussing it.
> 
> My wife has never said to me why she no longer wants sex, something she used to enjoy more than I did. I have asked many times, including asking her if she is no longer attracted to me. She says that she is and I do believe her. If a reason was given, the problem would be easy to fix or divorce would seem like a better option. I would not want my wife to feel used and I do not believe she ever felt that way. I believe your statements are overly broad and generalizing.
> 
> The books you mention are excellent. I have read them and given them to my wife. They have not helped. I have come to believe that many women just cannot understand the emotional need (not just physical) that sex satisfies for a man, in spite of what is written in those books. It really is that simple. They don't understand that refusing sex is asking a man to feel unloved, something no one should have to accept. Because a particular woman can feel love without sex, she thinks her man can, too. But he can't. That is biology, how a man is made, and why so many men create such a higher priority for sex.


Part of the problem is the assumption that this is a problem that is mostly with women. IT's not. Men withhold sex and chose to make their marriage sexless or near sexless as often as women do.

It's just as hurtful to women when her husband does this as it is to a man when his wife does it.

A lot of the women who are on TAM are here for this very reason.

If your wife will not talk about what the problem is with sex, perhaps the root of the problem is not sex.

Maybe her hormones are off and she can get help for that.

Or maybe there are other things wrong in the relationship that are making her not want to be intimate. When a woman's oxytocin levels get below a certain point she will not want to be touched by her husband. The bond is lost. It an be rebuilt but that takes effort.

And yes, your wife might not be able to articulate what's going on with her because most people do not know the phycology/biology behind feeling desire and an emotional connection. All she knows is that something is off that she cannot explain.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> Very well made point. Makes a lot of sense... though women find it hard to understand, and it is quite counter-intuitive to be fair.
> 
> *Just to give one example: I got involved with a divorced woman, and for 3-4 years we had some of the best sex I've ever had in my life. Not only was she great in bed, but she made me feel like a phenomenal lover too!*
> 
> ...


Are you saying that you had a 3-4 year affair while you were married to your wife?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> This link explains some things:
> 
> The female libido and 'the two-year itch' - Macleans.ca
> 
> This might sound strange, but it is really borne out by many an experience: "The issue, we’ve long thought, is that women just aren’t interested; female desire is simply weaker, and stoked by intimacy and familiarity. But scientists are now wondering whether commitment itself might be the problem. In other words, it’s not a libido deficit, it’s monogamy—an unspoken two-year itch. As Bergner puts it, the female drug we’re really seeking is “monogamy’s cure.”"


Oh, so you are saying that women are just like men in that some, not all, lose desire in their spouse shortly after marriage.

Yea, I believe that. I've known of many men who have done exactly that.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Married but not happy said:


> I cannot agree with all that you say here. I do agree that sometimes there is an underlying cause for the sex to stop and some of the issues you mention play a part, I am sure. But other times there is no reason given. Many women just don't want sex anymore and won't say why. That is why there are so many people on here discussing it.
> 
> My wife has never said to me why she no longer wants sex, something she used to enjoy more than I did. I have asked many times, including asking her if she is no longer attracted to me. She says that she is and I do believe her. If a reason was given, the problem would be easy to fix or divorce would seem like a better option. I would not want my wife to feel used and I do not believe she ever felt that way. I believe your statements are overly broad and generalizing.
> 
> The books you mention are excellent. I have read them and given them to my wife. They have not helped. I have come to believe that many women just cannot understand the emotional need (not just physical) that sex satisfies for a man, in spite of what is written in those books. It really is that simple. They don't understand that refusing sex is asking a man to feel unloved, something no one should have to accept. Because a particular woman can feel love without sex, she thinks her man can, too. But he can't. That is biology, how a man is made, and why so many men create such a higher priority for sex.


My statements are based on what I am told from women I speak to, they say that they desire sex too but when problems arise that has nothing to do with sex it gets put on the back burner. That is until they lose their desire, then the man becomes concerned with sexual issues ( do you still find me attractive, how can I improve in bed). All other non-sexual issues are thought of as excuses, roadblocks to the sex he wants.

This is what I am saying, it may or may not apply to you. Women do not feel like having sex with someone they are emotionally detached from, just keep that in mind.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening techmom
I think that is true in many cases. It may be a somewhat biased sample though: Women who talk about losing desire for their husbands view sex as an important part of their relationships.

There are also some people (male and female) who do not want sex and do not view it as important. They are unlikely to talk about it because it doesn't occur to them that it matters. 




techmom said:


> My statements are based on what I am told from women I speak to, they say that they desire sex too but when problems arise that has nothing to do with sex it gets put on the back burner. That is until they lose their desire, then the man becomes concerned with sexual issues ( do you still find me attractive, how can I improve in bed). All other non-sexual issues are thought of as excuses, roadblocks to the sex he wants.
> 
> This is what I am saying, it may or may not apply to you. Women do not feel like having sex with someone they are emotionally detached from, just keep that in mind.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Women complaining about being deprived of sex within marriage is an increasing problem, it seems. But, if I'm not wrong, it is a new phenomenon. Or, if it was there earlier, women didn't complain about it openly.

As I see it, this is going to become a growing problem with time. Somewhere, it will equal out, as both men AND women start complaining in almost equal that they are being deprived of sex in their respective marriages.

Earlier, women had to be the cautious party. Post 1960s, pregancy is no longer such a 'threat'.



EleGirl said:


> Part of the problem is the assumption that this is a problem that is mostly with women. IT's not. Men withhold sex and chose to make their marriage sexless or near sexless as often as women do.
> 
> It's just as hurtful to women when her husband does this as it is to a man when his wife does it.
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> Women complaining about being deprived of sex within marriage is an increasing problem, it seems. But, if I'm not wrong, it is a new phenomenon. Or, if it was there earlier, women didn't complain about it openly.


It’s not a new problem. It’s been going on for a very long time… like as long as there have been male/female committed relationships.

But it is only now that women are starting to talk about it. Why? Because we were told that men always want sex. So when a husband does not want sex, we blame ourselves. When a wife does not want sex, the husband blames her.



brownmale said:


> As I see it, this is going to become a growing problem with time. Somewhere, it will equal out, as both men AND women start complaining in almost equal that they are being deprived of sex in their respective marriages.


It is already about equal. 


brownmale said:


> Earlier, women had to be the cautious party. Post 1960s, pregnancy is no longer such a 'threat'.


Of course women had to be more cautious. But women still enjoyed sex. At least those who were not indoctrinated into believing that women could not enjoy sex.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening techmom
> I think that is true in many cases. It may be a somewhat biased sample though: Women who talk about losing desire for their husbands view sex as an important part of their relationships.
> 
> There are also some people (male and female) who do not want sex and do not view it as important. They are unlikely to talk about it because it doesn't occur to them that it matters.


You are right. There are some men and some women who just lose interest in sex for things like hormonal issues. Sometimes these are transient and sometimes they are permanent.

However, the data that has been collected shows that the vast majority (70%-80%) of people, men and women, who do not want sex with their spouse don't want it because they are harboring resentment and anger.

They usually feel/believe that they have told their spouse over and over for years what the problems are in the marriage from their perspective. Their spouse just thinks that they are nagging and does not take them seriously. So eventually the one who has been trying to get the other to work to fix things gives up.. and when that happens they stop wanting sex with their spouse and they stop talking about the problems. Why talk about them when they have been blown off for years? 

This is what the books "Surviving an Affair", "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters" are about. They are about a couple working together to explore their needs, fix problems and fall back in love.

The first step to fixing things is a full physical with hormone levels checked. 

After that, doesn't it make sense that if 70%-80% of the time the problem is anger and resentment , that is where to start looking for a solution?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

P51Geo1980 said:


> Yes, absolutely. There isn't a physical betrayal, but there is emotional betrayal and pain none the less. It is a betrayal of marriage vows and a betrayal of the promise that your spouse makes to meet your needs. I was in a sexless marriage with a wife that I loved very much for most of our 7 years married. It was the most painful thing I've ever endured. The lonliness, seeing couples that are happy together, wondering what is wrong with you that your spouse had no desire for you...yeah it's just as painful as an affair. There were days I fell asleep with tears in my eyes and woke up with tears in my eyes. It's really sad that it took a divorce for her to realize what she lost, but that's what happened. I've been dating someone for a little over a year and it's such a nice feeling to be with someone who actually likes and loves me. We have a very healthy sex life and many hobbies in common.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All day and night long THIS.

:iagree:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> There must be some ways of at least convincing them to meet some of your needs...
> 
> I've spoken to her, told her what I feel... asked her if she's really serious when she says I could get my needs met elsewhere... Shown an interest in other women (just to make her jealous, which works!)
> 
> ...


Between this and your 3-4 year affair, I can see why your wife does not want sex with you.

You have posted several threads on TAM. You have gotten input and sympathy from people. But you left out some extremely important details.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Personal said:


> Is your wife scared of you? What if she doesn't get into the bedroom and do as she's told? What do/would you do if she says "stop"?


Scared? Hardly... 

There's a one-in-three chance that she refuses. 

Result: grumpy husband syndrome. 

I guess the reason why she falls in line is that if you've not had sex for one or two weeks at a stretch, then there must be a limit to keeping someone you married off it and expecting no consequences.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> Scared? Hardly...
> 
> There's a one-in-three chance that she refuses.
> 
> ...


What consequences would she be expecting?


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> What consequences would she be expecting?


Non-communication outside of the bedroom.... Irritability.

Is this being too irrational?

Never felt as angry in my life as when deprived of sex by the only person who can legitimately give it to me....


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> Non-communication outside of the bedroom.... Irritability.
> 
> Is this being too irrational?
> 
> Never felt as angry in my life as when deprived of sex by the only person who can legitimately give it to me....


Oh, I understand the feeling of anger with this since I've been through it as well.

At issue is how to deal with it.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

This:


> *She's the only one whom I've had sex with in my life (apart from one, long-distance emotional affair)*


Does not match this:


> *Just to give one example: I got involved with a divorced woman, and for 3-4 years we had some of the best sex I've ever had in my life. Not only was she great in bed, but she made me feel like a phenomenal lover too!
> *


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

brownmale said:


> Non-communication outside of the bedroom.... Irritability.
> 
> Is this being too irrational?
> 
> Never felt as angry in my life as when deprived of sex by the only person who can legitimately give it to me....


I'm sure she feels anger too, also resentments from being forced to give you sex. I'm sure you don't feel fulfilled which is why you had that affair.

Did you're wife bring up any issues prior to her not performing sexually for you?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Yes, I agree that is a good place to start. I was just commenting because there are still quite a few people in the 20-30% who are bothered by the assumption that it is their problem when they have done everything they can think of. 

I sometimes think that the people in the 70-80% have difficulty believing that the others really exist.

Being turned down by the person you love hurts. It adds to that to have other people assume it is because there is something wrong with you.

Again though I agree, in many (most?) cases if your partner is turning you down you should look to yourself first.





EleGirl said:


> After that, doesn't it make sense that if 70%-80% of the time the problem is anger and resentment , that is where to start looking for a solution?


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

You should always look to yourself first as this is where easy and effective changes can be made first....

BUT....sometimes the other person has issues LD, etc etc that have NOTHING to do with you.

In marriage #1 at a certain point there was NOTHING I could do to change my wife to better meet MY needs...I could change to be better for her, I could ACCEPT her, but NOTHING I could do to reach in her mind and change her psychological and sexual makeup.....

So I guess Im saying, I agree, start with yourself, but dont expect it to solve all problems......low drive that has been a lifetime issue might change with some big mental breakthrough or some big medical intervention...but probably not......

If you have a depressing sex life and dont feel wanted it will kill your self esteem if you are high drive.....

If at all possible financially and children wise......find another partner somehow....divorce, open marriage, (no I dont condone actual cheating....)

If the LD partner is TRYING but cant satisfy you, thats not cheating though...that is just their limitations as a human being and you then have to see if you can accept it or want to take the consequences of moving on.....









richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Yes, I agree that is a good place to start. I was just commenting because there are still quite a few people in the 20-30% who are bothered by the assumption that it is their problem when they have done everything they can think of.
> 
> I sometimes think that the people in the 70-80% have difficulty believing that the others really exist.
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> Non-communication outside of the bedroom.... Irritability.
> 
> Is this being too irrational?
> 
> Never felt as angry in my life as when deprived of sex by the only person who can legitimately give it to me....


How is all that non-communication and irritability working out for you? Is it solving your problem? Or is it making it worse?

It's extremely instructive and not sexy at all.

You are your wife have serious issues. An internet forum is not going to help with situation this serious. The two of you need to get into marriage counseling with a counselor who is also a sex therapist. 

We cannot help you here much because your wife is not here. Without her side of the story and the ability to talk to her we cannot really help. All we can do is be a sounding board for you.

Your wife is 50% of this. So she has to be part of the solution.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Well, my opinion is you need to tell you wife that you've cheated on her. You need to tell your family what you've done, ask forgiveness and make changes in your life, so this will never happen again. I believe you will need to answer any questions your wife has in as much or little detail as she needs to heal. I believe you will need to become transparent with all you do, giving her all your passwords and offering any information she needs. 

This is the first issue you need to address. The only problem I see with all of this is that you really don't feel sorry for cheating on her. My advice is to tell her and then divorce. Anything less is emotionally abusive. She likely has a clue that you've been sleeping around on her and that in and of itself, identifies at least some of the issues she has with sex. She likely feels worthless at this point and if you are living away from her family, she feels very alone. 

What led to this sexless situation which you believe caused you to find satisfaction outside the marriage is long gone. It may never be solved since you put the final nail in your marriage by adding infidelity. Most women I know are so smart or intellectually savvy, they know exactly what it happening without even having evidence. If she has felt like she was being abused, and I believe she has, whether you did or not, she knows exactly how you feel when you react. She knows what to expect. She knows you like the back of her hand, because she has to to protect herself. And I don't mean to imply you've been physically abusive. I mean, any feelings of being controlled will cause this. Anything that you do to make her feel like she is not an important individual, on a consistent basis, which I believe is likely, and she will become closed off to you and at the same time, know every move you will make and when and why. 

I believe she is the one who should come here and talk while you learn how to be a much better man. Maybe then, if you are very lucky, you can have the life you imagined in your head. Right now, there is no way in hell. 

Good luck.

Edit: Your next question might be, "Why do you say to divorce"? 

One of the most important things for someone to feel is respect. Without respect, there can be no real love. You have proven time and again you do not respect her. She feels this. She likely feels you are only using her for her body. She will have a very difficult time ever truly believing you respect her. I believe you will never truly respect her, even if you do the work.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Oh, I understand the feeling of anger with this since I've been through it as well.
> 
> At issue is how to deal with it.


Agreed. There are many perspectives on this. All culturally shaped by our assumptions about relationships and sex.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

techmom said:


> I'm sure she feels anger too, also resentments from being forced to give you sex. I'm sure you don't feel fulfilled which is why you had that affair.
> 
> Did you're wife bring up any issues prior to her not performing sexually for you?


A good question --

Just anger. About her not doing well in life (by implication, having hitched to the wrong person!) Her friends are doing better, she hasn't spent much time on her career and tends to have problems with jobs as a consequence of investing so little. 

She very well knew my attitudes and approach towards life and money before we got married.

It also coincided with the 3-4 years post-marriage end-of-honeymoon phase....


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The large response to this question suggests that this is a controversy that deflies a black and white reply. To be sure cheating generally a moral failure. However, let's examine real life conditions. There may be some spouse who deny sex who also, perhaps for religious reasons, refuse to divorce. Imagine a Catholic man or woman who is threatened with religious punishment for divorcing. They have no good choice. Of course, they can also reject their religious affiliation.

It is noteworthy that priests, pastors and rabbis probably treat the confidence of infidelity differently. Some will not tell the betrayed spouse because of their doctrine or professional ethics.

Also, people denied sex for long periods of time may find themselves in EAs without intending to engage in them. The EA hijacks the mind because the hunger for affection is so great that it will not be denied. Once an EA has taken root, internal ethical arguments may not be loud compared with the urge to act.

There are certainly marriages that have a built in dysfunction. A man who marries a much younger woman may be sexually compatible for decade, but a 55-year-old man who has ED cannot meet the needs of his 37-year-old wife. If they have children and a social life, the wife is a difficult spot. Divorcing the husband for being LD is also cruel.


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