# Lies and financial infidelity



## happydad (Apr 11, 2016)

*Lies and financial infidelity - Updated 9/7*

So the quick story is I found out my wife had racked up some debt, and I knew that she had as she told me over the course of the last couple years. I've started my own business (financial advisor!) and money has been extremely tight but has gotten a ton better in the last 6 months.

If you read my previous post, you can see I've had some serious trust issues related to my wife's flirtatious behavior. Anyhow, my understanding was the debt was approx. 15K, which is easily manageable for us. A few things happened this past month that made me request usernames and passwords of accounts and she was shocked but obliged. Upon agreeing she sent an email saying btw she took out a loan from credit union to pay off cards two years ago and there is another 3300 there, she also states that she feels anxious and feels judged (blaming me?)when we talk about spending because I'm an expert and she's dumb, blah blah.

I looked into the accounts and it's typical credit card runup spending and interest compounding to kill people over time. So I did an analysis and made a plan but asked her about a few charges and she lied and said there were no other accounts, or that they have been paid off.

I said lets log in and she said no, let's just talk about this later. Naturally I said no, let's go do it now and she obliged again, saying she doesn't use it, we log in and 2K on this one. I said what about the PayPal account, which 10 minutes before she said was just purchases made on PayPal and that it's not a credit card, anyhow, as I'm asking for username and password she confesses to another 3K.

Obviously I'm shocked by the additional 9-10k of debt but feel that if she can lie to my face about this, what else is she hiding?

I'm tired of playing the detective, my life is too grinding as it is without having to wonder if my wife is lying. Any thought on what I should do, the two texts she has sent me since I left the house were 1. I ****ed up and 2. that she hates herself for being the way she is
_Posted via Mobile Device_

So I went out of town for the weekend on a guys trip and set up a VAR in the bedroom and car (didn't work properly in the car) and GPS. She spent Saturday with my two young kids with the wives and kids of the friends I was with and the kids stayed the night and Saturday night (10pm) my wife took an odd detour through our neighborhood where we live coming home, very close but not directly in front of one of my suspected POSOM lives, she was also intoxicated so this could be why. I listed to the VAR at the time she got home, and it wasn't very loud and she turned on the AC unit which was next to the VAR but I could still here the TV and or her voice when she was talking. All I heard was ouch like she hurt herself, then I hear a lot of the dog, which sleeps in our bed then I hear "F*CK me" and then it went quiet for 30 seconds then I heard what could be slapping sex sounds but also could very easily be the dog to which she says "I am so f*cked up and you hear her getting up from the bed. 

I listened to this yesterday morning and flew off the handle and pulled the anonymous email you need to come clean or we are done routine thinking I had solid evidence. She said she was home with my step daughter when she got home and I asked my step daughter she said she worked until 1am. I asked her if she drove home the same way she drives home every time and she said yes, of course. So two lies I caught her with. She is hysterical at this point and she drove to my office and grilled me asking for the email and saying she can't handle me and my accusations. She said this same thing when I initially found out about the finances basically saying how much I hurt her when I accuse her of cheating and/or having feelings for somebody else immediately followed by how ashamed she is and will do anything to make me trust her again. 

She didn't come clean with anything and said we needed couples counseling which I said to set it up and we'll lay everything on the table. 

I've listened to the VAR 100 times and I'm only 60% sure it is her, hell, she could be alone as I don't hear a man's voice. 

I'm at my wits end on how to handle, I told her last night I might be getting trolled by somebody on a blog that may be messing with me because at that moment I believed her. I said their was no picture in the email and I lied about that but that I did get an email saying my wife cheated on me. 

I'm struggling because my evidence (VAR and GPS) are something I obviously can't share. Any advice?


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Have you ran a credit report on her? I bet there is more she isn't confessing to.

If the marriage is good otherwise, like frequent/good sex, then it's probably not worth divorcing over. You'll probably end up paying 50% of it anyways. But if the marriage sucks, I'd use it as my out. Life is too short to be with a crazy b**ch.


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## straightshooter (Dec 27, 2015)

Well, my friend, I see more than financial problem here.

One question I have is are you sure this debt was not incurred during an affair with another man. ??? Because it appears you have suspected her of serious boundary crossing with men as well as money issues.

If you want to stop playing detective, and if you decide not to stay apart. My suggestion is that you tell her that she is taking polygraph tests for the next year periodically and if she fails anything you are done. 

Whether or not you actually do it or not, her reaction to that will tell you two things
(1) if there is more that you do not know
(2) if she is committed to do anything T and everything to save the marriage.

And before you make those decisions I would not be sending her to and therapists on your dime


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## happydad (Apr 11, 2016)

GuyInColorado said:


> Have you ran a credit report on her? I bet there is more she isn't confessing to.
> 
> If the marriage is good otherwise, like frequent/good sex, then it's probably not worth divorcing over. You'll probably end up paying 50% of it anyways. But if the marriage sucks, I'd use it as my out. Life is too short to be with a crazy b**ch.


I'd agree with you except I saw her main checking account statement and saw where payments were going. Sex is good and the marriage was good until the past year when I began to suspect potential EA/PA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

creditkarma.com... it's free and you'll know all her active lines of credit in a few minutes. Peace of mind at least.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

She is a compulsive spender and a financial adulteress in the marriage. She will be a repeat offender unless she regrets what she did, and she knows that opening one more card or incurring one more $ of debt without your full knowledge and agreement will end in divorce.

Get a post-nuptial that states any cards or debts she incurs from this time forward are solely her responsibility in the case of divorce. Also state that opening cards/accounts without your knowledge will result in divorce.


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## happydad (Apr 11, 2016)

straightshooter said:


> Well, my friend, I see more than financial problem here.
> 
> One question I have is are you sure this debt was not incurred during an affair with another man. ??? Because it appears you have suspected her of serious boundary crossing with men as well as money issues.
> 
> ...


I definitely need to do this
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happydad (Apr 11, 2016)

straightshooter said:


> Well, my friend, I see more than financial problem here.
> 
> One question I have is are you sure this debt was not incurred during an affair with another man. ??? Because it appears you have suspected her of serious boundary crossing with men as well as money issues.
> 
> ...


We didn't really talk for two days only she has been emailing and texting me her apologies, although her email back to me after I laid out my lack of trust and problems with her spending was that she does respect and care for me but that I've hurt her by accusing her of having feeling or being with other men. Other than her getting upset about this she has completely submitted and is saying she is at rock bottom and will do anything to earn back my trust.

I've seen all the statements and she was not spending on hotels, burner phones, etc. but she was spending on ebay and amazon like it was therapy. She signed up for some program where they ship her stuff direct from China for 2 bucks a day and she doesn't even know what she is getting. 

I really want to leverage this opportunity to find out if she has been cheating at all this past year but I really don't have anything from her spending, GPS, phone records, facebook or emails to really warrant her cheating. The only thing I have is her flirting with certain people at parties/events. 

At this point I'm afraid I'd be taking it too far by going the polygraph route, but then again she flat out lied and trickle truthed me on the debt so what is to say she is not lying about an affair?


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

happydad said:


> Any thought on what I should do, the two texts she has sent me since I left the house were 1. I ****ed up and 2. that she hates herself for being the way she is
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Poor me"

"Forgive me, for I know not what I do."

There is a lot going on here. The strongest thing you can do is to promise her love on the other side. I don't recommend a blame game/guilt trip. I don't recommend "taking it easy" on her.

Basically, you stand for what a relationship should look like. You then let her decide if she wants to join that cause. Few individuals take this route. That said, you are forcing the responsibility for her actions to be 100% on her. She is trying to duck, dodge, and absolve herself.

Don't be harsh/mean to her, either. No matter what her actions are, they don't transmogrify yours into something else.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

happydad said:


> Other than her getting upset about this she has completely submitted and is saying she is at rock bottom and will do anything to earn back my trust.


Desperation doesn't save marriages. This isn't entirely genuine. When individuals give into desperation, there is some backlash that always comes with it. Make a wave in a bathtub. Once it hits the edges, it roars back. Her struggle will continue.

It is silly, but individuals buy into speeches, instead of actions. The things that drive her actions are deeply psychological. A couple of sentences that state she is willing to do anything doesn't change the state of her neural connections.


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## straightshooter (Dec 27, 2015)

Happy dad,

With the little information you have the polygraph route is the only way you have any chance to find out the truth, regardless of any potential flaws.

In some cases, just the demand for a polygraph produces what is called a parking lot confession if they believe that they are going to get caught anyway.

However, be careful, many times you will get a little more information in order to try to get you to believe you have it all and cancel the test.

my suggestion to you is to tell her if she want to prove she is telling the truth that she needs to take the test. She should jump at the opportunity., On the other hand if she has been cheating she will resemble Casper The Ghost.

You should bring it up even if you have no intention of doing it ( which I think is a big mistake on your part)


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## happydad (Apr 11, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> "Poor me"
> 
> "Forgive me, for I know not what I do."
> 
> ...


I agree and she does this a lot, oh whoa is me, I screwed up. If I get upset with her which I have in the past at her being flirtatious with others she immediately goes straight for sex almost as if its an aphrodisiac. She uses sex to cover up issues and has a habit of always putting things back on me.


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## happydad (Apr 11, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Desperation doesn't save marriages. This isn't entirely genuine. When individuals give into desperation, there is some backlash that always comes with it. Make a wave in a bathtub. Once it hits the edges, it roars back. Her struggle will continue.
> 
> It is silly, but individuals buy into speeches, instead of actions. The things that drive her actions are deeply psychological. A couple of sentences that state she is willing to do anything doesn't change the state of her neural connections.


I agree and feel like it is her way of trying to rug sweep the situation again. The full history is when we were married 10 years ago she had 25-30K in debt that she didn't tell me about and I spent two years paying it off only to go into debt of my own when the company I worked for went out of business in late 08 owing me 20K. I am finally fully recovered from that and had to consolidate debt of my own two years ago which would have been a perfect time for her to tell me about her new debt but she did not. 

She raises her old two kids in a similar manner, being very nice so as to not hurt their feelings and now can't understand why they are fully responsible/capable young adults.


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## Married&Confused (Jan 19, 2011)

it sounds like she engages in "retail therapy", maybe as a means of avoiding "affair therapy".

i would separate finances immediately. no joint credit cards or checking accounts. figure out how much of her money (if she works, i don't remember) needs to go towards household bills and take that from her. the rest is what she spends on her retail therapy.

but go over EVERY statement, checking account and credit report so you understand the extent of (a) her debt and (b) whether or not there's evidence of an affair.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

happydad said:


> I agree and she does this a lot, oh whoa is me, I screwed up. If I get upset with her which I have in the past at her being flirtatious with others she immediately goes straight for sex almost as if its an aphrodisiac. She uses sex to cover up issues and has a habit of always putting things back on me.


Everything I do revolves dealing with the source of issues. If we never get to the source, the relationship is left being somewhat disconnected. She is afraid to go beneath the surface, and it is not going to be easy to do so, for her or you.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

happydad said:


> I agree and she does this a lot, oh whoa is me, I screwed up. If I get upset with her which I have in the past at her being flirtatious with others she immediately goes straight for sex almost as if its an aphrodisiac. She uses sex to cover up issues and has a habit of always putting things back on me.


She is very sharp, very tuned-in to her own-ed behavior.

She knows right from wrong...She is *not* in a Fog of Denial.

I see serious [lack of] impulse control here...on her part.

Could this behavior [also] have led to an EA/PA?

Lack of sex for last year is a Red Flag...you know this.

Another Red Flag. fervid sexual bonding when Infidelity doubt is laid at her feet.

Not enough proof at this point to say she has cheated....and not enough proof to deny it is/has gone on.

Continue to be vigilant.

Start using VAR therapy...this therapy is for you. Place one VAR in her car and one in the place in the house where she conducts most of her phone usage. This will only expose ongoing or new illicit activity and may not bring to surface past dalliances....unless she has a confidant that she shares her feelings with. 

If you assume this role....as Monsieur Snooper, you must let off the pressure and questioning. Once she feels out of the spotlight and out of Doubting Thomas's sight, she may resume her *possible* adulterous tactics.

Assume that she is innocent until proven the opposite. She is guilty of spending your money, this is fact. 

Is she guilty of spending your sexual and emotional trust? Time will tell....or not.

Good Luck....hope it is only Green Cabbage Fever in your love garden...not Cucumber over-planting.


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## kingsman (Aug 6, 2016)

You should split up your finances and contribute jointly to the house, childcare and other responsibilities from your own separate accounts. She handles her bills and debt, and you handle yours. 

Base it on a salary percentage so it's fair, and that way you have some control over this runaway train. 

Of course if you ultimately divorce you'll still share her debt but at least you can get on top of some of these problems now. She sounds remorseful, now is the time to get her to agree to this.


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## happydad (Apr 11, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> She is very sharp, very tuned-in to her own-ed behavior.
> 
> She knows right from wrong...She is *not* in a Fog of Denial.
> 
> ...


No lack of sex the past year, only the past year of my suspitions, I tried the VAR a few times and nothing, gps showed nothing as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kingsman (Aug 6, 2016)

happydad said:


> No lack of sex the past year, only the past year of my suspitions, I tried the VAR a few times and nothing, gps showed nothing as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You need to use the VAR and GPS consistently for a few weeks, not randomly and sporadically.


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## happydad (Apr 11, 2016)

kingsman said:


> You need to use the VAR and GPS consistently for a few weeks, not randomly and sporadically.


I used the GPS for two months with nothing, and used the VAR for a few weeks with nothing. She has a two minute commute and doesn't drive often.


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## happydad (Apr 11, 2016)

straightshooter said:


> Happy dad,
> 
> With the little information you have the polygraph route is the only way you have any chance to find out the truth, regardless of any potential flaws.
> 
> ...


 @straightshooter, I'm not sure if you have any experience with polygraph tests, but I've been reading up on them more and more and it seems that they are regularly used by counselors. I'm trying to figure out the best way to approach the subject. 

I'm thinking about saying something along the lines of "I've talked with a relationship coach and was advised that this is a great tool to confirm the truth and ease my suspicions, therefore getting us back to a better spot with my insecurities and confirming her story of her just being overly friendly, which she states over and over.

This past weekend we laid everything on the line financially with her giving me usernames and passwords for all her accounts and agreeing that she can't spend beyond our budget, so she is feeling like we are back on track already, but knows it is a long road to full trust. 

I feel like a poly could make the road a lot shorter, my question is about her reactions. If she calls me crazy, turns white, etc, or just flat out says no I can only assume that she has something to hide? Is there anything out there that says polygraphs are just plain taboo and an all out relationship killer to even suggest one?


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

happydad said:


> I feel like a poly could make the road a lot shorter, my question is about her reactions. If she calls me crazy, turns white, etc, or just flat out says no I can only assume that she has something to hide?


It's nowhere near as simple as that. 

Those responses could be the natural nervous defensive reactions of an honest person subjected to a test they find insulting. 



happydad said:


> Is there anything out there that says polygraphs are just plain taboo and an all out relationship killer to even suggest one?


Even if there is it doesn't mean it's right.


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## straightshooter (Dec 27, 2015)

HappyDad,

I am sending you a PM. LET ME KNOW IF YOU RECEIVE IT


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## SteveBo (Jul 26, 2016)

I can understand what you are dealing with because my wife lies in a very similar way on money. I don't even know how much dept she has. In the past she hid over 70k of debt on business loan, goods and stolen money. 

She never changed and I don't think that she will do better she only changes the way she lies and hide things. 

In my opinion you dont have to waste your energy trying to find out why she does these things and worst trying to change her.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

My XWW was bad with money and hid a few debts from me during the marriage. All I can tell you from experience is that it won't change and if she can lie to you about money then it's in her psyche to lie about anything as a means of avoiding consequence. Your choices are either to accept her for who she is (including the bad) or divorce her. The choice is yours. 

I actually have suspected that my XWW's hiding her financial irresponsibility from me was a contributor to her having an affair. She probably had quite a bit of latent guilt about how she was purposely mishandling money, which somehow built to resentment towards me. Of course this is all speculation on my part and doesn't matter anymore. 

One piece of cautionary advice for anyone dealing with a spouse hiding credit card debt is to also periodically double check the retirement accounts and student loan accounts. When I caught my XWW hiding credit card debt early in our marriage we did the mature thing and agreed to only have joint credit cards so we could both monitor the spending and prevent that situation from happening again. Since she was unable to live within a budget her eventual deceitful solution was to slowly liquidate her retirement funds and have the money transferred to a personal savings account that I didn't have access to. I only found out about this during the divorce discovery process when her account was empty. I also found out that somehow her student loan debt grew despite our budgeting money to pay it off, so I assume she got a student loan deferment too and spent her monthly student loan payment allocation. Basically, I'm just saying to check everything because the more you catch her doing the sneakier she'll become. 

Good luck. I hope it works out better for you than it did for me.


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## happydad (Apr 11, 2016)

I update my original post with events from the past few days. Please advise.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

*Re: Lies and financial infidelity - Updated 9/7*



happydad said:


> So I went out of town for the weekend on a guys trip and set up a VAR in the bedroom and car (didn't work properly in the car) and GPS. She spent Saturday with my two young kids with the wives and kids of the friends I was with and the kids stayed the night and Saturday night (10pm) my wife took an odd detour through our neighborhood where we live coming home, very close but not directly in front of one of my suspected POSOM lives, she was also intoxicated so this could be why. I listed to the VAR at the time she got home, and it wasn't very loud and she turned on the AC unit which was next to the VAR but I could still here the TV and or her voice when she was talking. All I heard was ouch like she hurt herself, then I hear a lot of the dog, which sleeps in our bed then I hear "F*CK me" and then it went quiet for 30 seconds then I heard what could be slapping sex sounds but also could very easily be the dog to which she says "I am so f*cked up and you hear her getting up from the bed.
> 
> I listened to this yesterday morning and flew off the handle and pulled the anonymous email you need to come clean or we are done routine thinking I had solid evidence. She said she was home with my step daughter when she got home and I asked my step daughter she said she worked until 1am. I asked her if she drove home the same way she drives home every time and she said yes, of course. So two lies I caught her with. She is hysterical at this point and she drove to my office and grilled me asking for the email and saying she can't handle me and my accusations. She said this same thing when I initially found out about the finances basically saying how much I hurt her when I accuse her of cheating and/or having feelings for somebody else immediately followed by how ashamed she is and will do anything to make me trust her again.
> 
> ...


So to summarize she's cheating financially, lying to your face, possibly having a sexual affair (the blame shift/confrontation to find out your source of evidence is standard operating procedure for a cheater), and drunk driving? My question is what are your standards for a wife? Is she meeting them or not and do you want to stay married to someone like that? Do you need to have absolute proof that she's cheating to divorce her? I think that her behavior reflects the personality type of a dishonest woman that doesn't respect you.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

From what you described here, it does not sound like she was with anyone in the bedroom. If she were having sex with someone, it would be CLEARLY obvious on a recording. What has she done that has made you suspect cheating? Her financial issues are pretty obvious...


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## Legend (Jun 25, 2013)

*Re: Lies and financial infidelity - Updated 9/7*

Financial adultery, possibly worse than standard adultery.

Thank your lucky stars it's only 15k. My wife put a 50k hole in me before I gained control.

Some people get a high off buying things like a hit of a drug to help manage their underlying depression.

What I did. Closed ALL accounts. Cancelled ALL credit cards. Opened up a checking account in my name only with only 1 debit card I have possession of always. 

Had to close that checking account and reopen another account after I had her help me pull some info while buying our house (with my credit only) and she attached a paypal account and started buying S$!t again.

Allowed her account to run to $0. She now only buys necessities and with my direct permission each and every time. 

She KNOWS, KNOWS, KNOWS that if I ever see a single unauthorized purchase from my account any time for any reason, I will throw her out and divorce her immediately. She knows I'm not bluffing.


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