# Co-parenting woes



## Hope Shimmers

I've been debating whether to post this, because I don't want to come off as selfish or a complainer, but things have come to a head and I could use some advice.

I've been divorced for 10 years and have 3 kids -- 24, 22, and 17. My ex-H and I shared custody 50-50 during all this time, and I moved to a house only a couple of blocks from his to facilitate that and allow the kids the least amount of disruption possible. 

Even after all this time, the ex and I can't come to any kind of agreement on how to co-parent the kids. The issue now, and during the last few years, is paying for their post-high school education.

Our legal parenting agreement says that both he and I will "split their college expenses". Seems we interpret that differently. 

Ex-H is a high-level manager of health care workers in a large healthcare facility (in other words, he makes a lot of money). I am a physician and pharmacist and have a research degree as well. We both make well into the six figures and money has never been an issue.

My ex-H thinks this means the kids should be given everything they want materialistically. He also thinks it means we should pay every last cent of their college expenses.

I come from a family who did not have a lot of money; therefore, I worked two and sometimes three jobs in order to put myself through college (11 years of post-HS education) and took out numerous student loans which I paid off afterwards. No one handed me anything.

I signed the parenting agreement thinking that it meant that whatever we discussed as being appropriate to help them, would be split between us.

Our first son went to MIT and UC Berkeley. So we paid out-of-state tuition on the latter, and MIT tuition (and Boston and San Francisco living expenses). He's doing great now. But I ended up putting hundreds of thousands of dollars from my end, into his education so that he would have no debt. Similar story to my second son (although he went to a state university). 

Now my 17-year-old daughter is a senior in high school and wants to go to college at my alma mater -- which is great. But we no longer live in that state, so I purchased a house and recently moved there so we could establish residency in that state and save around $25k a year in out-of-state tuition alone. I set her up a bedroom there so she can come to stay with me on weekends if she wants. 

The problem is, I'm now 53 years old and I don't want to do clinical work anymore. I want to work only part-time, doing medical writing/coding from home. I've been doing clinical work for 30+ years and I'm burned out. That means substantially less income.

I don't even know what I'm asking, I guess. I have to do the same for my daughter as I did my sons. But I never agreed with it -- I didn't think that handing them everything was the right thing to do. But my ex-H threatened to take me to court. He also tried (and still is trying) to ruin my relationship with my kids, telling them that I'm a pathetic selfish mother. Now my daughter is calling me the same thing if she doesn't get her way.

I have paid for their care and school. I bought all three of them cars (used cars, but nice ones). My 17 year old daughter drives a Lexus.

I don't know what to do anymore. I cannot take the disrespect from my ex-H, and now my daughter. We divorced because of his abuse. He was horribly emotionally and verbally abusive, and the night I told him this was over, he raped and beat me. I still regret not calling the police. Things might be different right now.

My daughter sounds just like him now. She calls me pathetic if she doesn't get everything she wants.

I feel completely defeated and backed into a corner. I don't feel like I am a pathetic selfish mom, but I need someone neutral to give me their opinion on all of this. I'm stuck.

I feel like I'll never get rid of my ex-H and his bullying and controlling. I think he's ruining the kids.


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## Marc878

It's a bit late but set your boundaries and hold them.

Letting others hold you hostage over what they think is always a bad idea.

It is your life too isn't it?

Seeing a good attorney for a consult before starting a war would be advisable.


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## frusdil

Hope Shimmers said:


> I don't even know what I'm asking, I guess. I have to do the same for my daughter as I did my sons. But I never agreed with it -- I didn't think that handing them everything was the right thing to do. But my ex-H threatened to take me to court. He also tried (and still is trying) to ruin my relationship with my kids, telling them that I'm a pathetic selfish mother. *Now my daughter is calling me the same thing if she doesn't get her way.*
> 
> *My daughter sounds just like him now. She calls me pathetic if she doesn't get everything she wants*.


That'd be all I'd need to say "You're on your own kiddo".

No one gave me anything either, I certainly wasn't given a Lexus car! I had to save and buy my own car, a small second hatchback at age 25. (I didn't drive until I was 22).


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## Hope Shimmers

Marc878 said:


> It's a bit late but set your boundaries and hold them.
> 
> Letting others hold you hostage over what they think is always a bad idea.
> 
> It is your life too isn't it?
> 
> Seeing a good attorney for a consult before starting a war would be advisable.


That's just it Marc. I don't want to start a war, which is why it's a bit late. It all just sort of closed in on me gradually.

I don't want any more attorneys. I honestly don't think I can live through that again.


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## Hope Shimmers

frusdil said:


> That'd be all I'd need to say "You're on your own kiddo".
> 
> No one gave me anything either, I certainly wasn't given a Lexus car! I had to save and buy my own car, a small second hatchback at age 25. (I didn't drive until I was 22).


I know. I got my first car at age 22. It was a puke brown AMC Hornet (with spoke wheels!) but I paid for it myself. Ugliest car that AMC ever created, which is saying a lot.

I did tell my daughter essentially what you said, but it broke my heart.


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## Blaine

Good Luck Hope Human beings naturally try to avoid pain and seek reward. Unfortunately, your daughter seems to have learned that if she treats you like crap you will give her what she wants. If she is not corrected this will just get worse. My question is you must have had to be strong and decisive in your work why do you allow members of ur family to get away with disrespecting you?


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## minimalME

I'm very sorry, Hope. My situation has some similarity to yours, and my children are about the same ages.

I was told in mediation that I couldn't even hold my husband accountable to pay for the private high school that our children were in at the time. So, I could be wrong, but I don't think that a court is going to require any type of payment agreement for college.

Also in mediation, I asked to discuss finances, and was flat out told no - that that was a different discussion for a different time. All in all that turned out to be better for me. Definitely less stressful.

Independently of my husband (we don't discuss much of anything anymore), I set up a suggested budget for the younger two, and I give them a set amount annually. It does cover 'half', but I have no clue what he pays and doesn't pay for. I asked yesterday how they both were financially (as classes start fairly soon), and they both said they were fine.

And, also similar to you, I have a daughter who basically isn't speaking to me, and when she does, it's often hostile. I've let go of it. 

I've made sincere apologies to everyone - even my ex-husband, for my part in the breakdown of our family. And I've also made it clear that I'm open to discussing difficult topics that are often very uncomfortable in order to make our relationships better. But, having said that, I won't be a punching bag for anyone.


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## arbitrator

*See your attorney! They can get that amended for you in less ambiguous language that will not leave it all to individual interpretation.

As an aside, the family law court would probably choose to not get involved in this since the kids are either now or are getting outside the scope of legal parental jurisdiction! 

Any disputes arising thereafter would probably have to be dealt with at the Civil Court level!*


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## Marc878

Now that she is almost 18 you can cut him off, block him on every thing.

You’ll never have to communicate again.

I think if you pay 1/2 her tuition etc. you’ll be clear.

Cut out all the drama and go dark


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## wilson

Hope Shimmers said:


> The problem is, I'm now 53 years old and I don't want to do clinical work anymore. I want to work only part-time, doing medical writing/coding from home. I've been doing clinical work for 30+ years and I'm burned out. That means substantially less income.


Work part time and say that each of your contributions will be proportional to your income. So if you make $50k and he makes $200k, you're responsible for 1/5th and he's responsible for 4/5ths. Saying you'll split expenses is reasonable if you're both making similar incomes. You're not a slave to your children, so you don't have to continue working if you don't want. 

If the legal agreement says you'll split expenses, that seems way too vague. That doesn't mean she gets to pick any school at any price and you are forced to pay half. And if your income is much lower than his, it seems you could get the agreement changed.

However, understand that such a decision will not be free of drama and consequences. Right or wrong, your child has grown up with certain expectations about college expenses. To now say that the funding will not be there will be pretty disruptive. There are a few outcomes:

1. You continue working and pay 50% like expected
2. Your ex pays 50% and your daughter has to take on debt to cover the shortfall, or
3. Your ex covers the bulk of tuition and she feels grateful to your ex.

Be sure you carefully consider how you want to handle this, as it will have very far-reaching consequences.


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## jorgegene

frusdil said:


> That'd be all I'd need to say "You're on your own kiddo".
> 
> No one gave me anything either, I certainly wasn't given a Lexus car! I had to save and buy my own car, a small second hatchback at age 25. (I didn't drive until I was 22).


i'm with you. even though my brother was a straight A student and my dad was a successful engineer, he told all of us 4 kids "i will encourage and try to help
all of you go to college, but there will be no free ride. you can live at home, i can lend you money if/when you really need it, but you'll pay for your own education and thank me
for it when you're old and gray!"

so my brother applied for and won a national merit scholarship and got a full ride to college and eventually got his Phd at stanford. on his own. with minimal help from the old man.
i got a track scholarship and lived at home and went to college at the local state university, even though i wanted to go to a more glamorous U.
my sister waited to work her way to pay for her husbands DDS and periodontal work and then finished her degree cumma sum laude.
my kid brother went to work and eventually got his degree on his own.

you know what? we're all thanking the old man now.


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## john117

We have agreed to pay jointly for dd2s in state medical school and Trump Tower apartment. No car for her. Dd1 makes decent money as a PhD student plus internship in summer so we're ok. 

In 3 years we're off the hook as dd1 will be an instructor once she clears quals and dd2 a resident once done. Can't wait. The girls are good about it and have not pushed for anything crazy extravagant.


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## RoseAglow

@HopeShimmers, I don't have any words of advice for how to move forward with your daughter. With your background though, I wanted to throw out a possible next gen career move: have you looked into medical monitoring for pharma? We have medical monitors (MMs) who help do MD to MD consulting on our studies as well as protocol design. Our MMs work remotely, with limited travel, do important work, and are well paid. Just thought I'd throw this out there for your consideration.


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## Hope Shimmers

Thanks everyone. I've read these replies several times now and I'm starting to see that I'm not crazy. All of this just sort of crept up on me. My ex-H is extremely controlling (which is why he's good at managing 200 pharmacists and physicians) but he does exactly what he wants regardless of what anyone else thinks. I spent years learning to acquiesce to keep the peace.

I guess I'll just hope my daughter comes around. And I'll stick to my boundaries, no matter what ex-H does.



RoseAglow said:


> @HopeShimmers, I don't have any words of advice for how to move forward with your daughter. With your background though, I wanted to throw out a possible next gen career move: have you looked into medical monitoring for pharma? We have medical monitors (MMs) who help do MD to MD consulting on our studies as well as protocol design. Our MMs work remotely, with limited travel, do important work, and are well paid. Just thought I'd throw this out there for your consideration.


Thank you RoseAglow! I'll check that out. What exactly do you do?

I've tried to get into regulatory writing for pharmaceutical companies which pays very well, but it's one of those things where you need experience to get the job but they won't give you a job unless you have experience. My clinical research experience is in academic settings. I don't have any direct pharma experience unless you count pharma clients who hire me for medical writing (although I've worked for practically every pharma company in that context). I appreciate the idea very much -- thanks again.


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## DustyDog

This thread is bugging me. I WANT to suggest ways to help, but what keeps coming to mind is this:

Two financially spoiled adults have created financially spoiled kids.

Why would anybody think this could change?


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## FieryHairedLady

Hope Shimmers said:


> I've been debating whether to post this, because I don't want to come off as selfish or a complainer, but things have come to a head and I could use some advice.
> 
> I've been divorced for 10 years and have 3 kids -- 24, 22, and 17. My ex-H and I shared custody 50-50 during all this time, and I moved to a house only a couple of blocks from his to facilitate that and allow the kids the least amount of disruption possible.
> 
> Even after all this time, the ex and I can't come to any kind of agreement on how to co-parent the kids. The issue now, and during the last few years, is paying for their post-high school education.
> 
> Our legal parenting agreement says that both he and I will "split their college expenses". Seems we interpret that differently.
> 
> Ex-H is a high-level manager of health care workers in a large healthcare facility (in other words, he makes a lot of money). I am a physician and pharmacist and have a research degree as well. We both make well into the six figures and money has never been an issue.
> 
> My ex-H thinks this means the kids should be given everything they want materialistically. He also thinks it means we should pay every last cent of their college expenses.
> 
> I come from a family who did not have a lot of money; therefore, I worked two and sometimes three jobs in order to put myself through college (11 years of post-HS education) and took out numerous student loans which I paid off afterwards. No one handed me anything.
> 
> I signed the parenting agreement thinking that it meant that whatever we discussed as being appropriate to help them, would be split between us.
> 
> Our first son went to MIT and UC Berkeley. So we paid out-of-state tuition on the latter, and MIT tuition (and Boston and San Francisco living expenses). He's doing great now. But I ended up putting hundreds of thousands of dollars from my end, into his education so that he would have no debt. Similar story to my second son (although he went to a state university).
> 
> Now my 17-year-old daughter is a senior in high school and wants to go to college at my alma mater -- which is great. But we no longer live in that state, so I purchased a house and recently moved there so we could establish residency in that state and save around $25k a year in out-of-state tuition alone. I set her up a bedroom there so she can come to stay with me on weekends if she wants.
> 
> The problem is, I'm now 53 years old and I don't want to do clinical work anymore. I want to work only part-time, doing medical writing/coding from home. I've been doing clinical work for 30+ years and I'm burned out. That means substantially less income.
> 
> I don't even know what I'm asking, I guess. I have to do the same for my daughter as I did my sons. But I never agreed with it -- I didn't think that handing them everything was the right thing to do. But my ex-H threatened to take me to court. He also tried (and still is trying) to ruin my relationship with my kids, telling them that I'm a pathetic selfish mother. Now my daughter is calling me the same thing if she doesn't get her way.
> 
> I have paid for their care and school. I bought all three of them cars (used cars, but nice ones). My 17 year old daughter drives a Lexus.
> 
> I don't know what to do anymore. I cannot take the disrespect from my ex-H, and now my daughter. We divorced because of his abuse. He was horribly emotionally and verbally abusive, and the night I told him this was over, he raped and beat me. I still regret not calling the police. Things might be different right now.
> 
> My daughter sounds just like him now. She calls me pathetic if she doesn't get everything she wants.
> 
> I feel completely defeated and backed into a corner. I don't feel like I am a pathetic selfish mom, but I need someone neutral to give me their opinion on all of this. I'm stuck.
> 
> I feel like I'll never get rid of my ex-H and his bullying and controlling. I think he's ruining the kids.


I am so sorry to hear what you went thru. The abuse kind of reminds me of my ex. I was too scared to go to the cops though, wish I would of had something documented. 

Kids: Well I can understand you have spent alot of money already. OUCH!

But in keeping things fair, it's not really fair to do for 2 kids and not for 3, unless there is a big difference in how the kids treat you.

We are not financially well off by any means. I try to teach all my kids to be independent and take care of themselves. There are times when they need help though and I will help them to a point. There is a fine line between helping and becoming a purse though and the kids growing to rely on a parent every time they run into trouble.

College is a bit different. 

I think it's great if a kid can put themselves thru college.

I think it's a great too if parents can afford to put the kids thru college also.

You moved to a new state to buy a house and set up residency, you kind of already have a HUGE foot in the door.

Backing out now is kind of crazy.

How many more years would you have to work to pay it off?

I am thinking if you can, get this last kid thru college and let her fly on her own.

Split expenses: If he makes ALOT more then you, I feel like expenses should be split differently.

If he makes $300,000 and you make $100,000, the split should be him paying 75%, you paying 25%.

If he makes $200,000 and you make $100,000, the split should be him paying 66%, you paying 33%.

etc


Your daughter feeling entitled and not appreciative though is horrible.

A heart to heart is in order, but not sure how much good it will do.

Good luck!!


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## Hope Shimmers

DustyDog said:


> This thread is bugging me. I WANT to suggest ways to help, but what keeps coming to mind is this:
> 
> Two financially spoiled adults have created financially spoiled kids.
> 
> Why would anybody think this could change?


So you are of the mindset that anyone who works to create a good career and job is "financially spoiled"? Well, to each their own I guess.

No one has ever called me "financially spoiled" before, to be honest. I worked hard for every dime I ever earned. I did not choose my career based on money. If that were true, I would still be doing clinical work.

You might want to be careful about calling people names when all you have to base anything on is a couple of posts on an internet forum.

Having said that, we did create spoiled kids. Why would anybody think this could change? Because my older son is no longer like that, and my second son is headed in that direction too. The daughter is the first child who has been disrespectful to me.

Thanks for your opinion.


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## Hope Shimmers

Inloveforeverwithhubby said:


> I am so sorry to hear what you went thru. The abuse kind of reminds me of my ex. I was too scared to go to the cops though, wish I would of had something documented.
> 
> Kids: Well I can understand you have spent alot of money already. OUCH!
> 
> But in keeping things fair, it's not really fair to do for 2 kids and not for 3, unless there is a big difference in how the kids treat you.
> 
> We are not financially well off by any means. I try to teach all my kids to be independent and take care of themselves. There are times when they need help though and I will help them to a point. There is a fine line between helping and becoming a purse though and the kids growing to rely on a parent every time they run into trouble.
> 
> College is a bit different.
> 
> I think it's great if a kid can put themselves thru college.
> 
> I think it's a great too if parents can afford to put the kids thru college also.
> 
> You moved to a new state to buy a house and set up residency, you kind of already have a HUGE foot in the door.
> 
> Backing out now is kind of crazy.
> 
> How many more years would you have to work to pay it off?
> 
> I am thinking if you can, get this last kid thru college and let her fly on her own.
> 
> Split expenses: If he makes ALOT more then you, I feel like expenses should be split differently.
> 
> If he makes $300,000 and you make $100,000, the split should be him paying 75%, you paying 25%.
> 
> If he makes $200,000 and you make $100,000, the split should be him paying 66%, you paying 33%.
> 
> etc
> 
> 
> Your daughter feeling entitled and not appreciative though is horrible.
> 
> A heart to heart is in order, but not sure how much good it will do.
> 
> Good luck!!


Thank you. I went to an attorney a couple of times to get the custody agreement changed when my first son went to college, but I was told that, although I could change the proportion of expenses I was responsible for, there was nothing I could do about what HE chose to do. And he firmly believes that if parents are capable, they should put their kids through college. Probably a mistake, but at the time I thought it was better to spend money towards my kids than throw that same money at a bunch of attorneys. Now I realize I should have put my foot down.

You are correct. I won't treat the third child differently than the other two, at this point. I just hope she comes around eventually.


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## RoseAglow

@Hope Shimmers, I work in a Contract Research Organization (CRO), helping sponsors run their clinical studies. Most of the studies I work on are pre-market, evaluating the safety and efficacy of new medications and collecting data to submit to the FDA and other health regulatory agencies, although we also do some post-marketing studies as well for new indications or just collecting more info long-term. At this point in my career, I oversee the monitors who go out to the sites to train physicians and site staff on the protocols, check data, ensure everyone is following FDA/Good Clinical Practices etc.

In my past roles, I've worked closely with medical monitors. All of them had worked in clinical practice for some time, and the MMs I've gotten to know best all came over to pharma for a better work-life balance. They still get to be on the cutting edge of medicine and in some ways, can make a positive effect over many more patients than they were able to do in clinical practice. I still interact with MMs and Regional Medical Liaisons (RMLs) but not the same degree. RMLs tend to have specialties (oncology, inflammation, cardiovascular, and so on) and cover small regions. They get to know all of the study physicians in the area and speak with them regarding studies, publication opportunities, recruitment challenges, etc.

I love my work. I do some travel, but most of the time, I work from home. I find it meaningful across several dimensions (personal satisfaction, career development, getting to help development my direct reports' careers.) 

It's easier to get into CROs than into the actual pharma companies, IME. I've always stayed with the CROs because there is more stability there. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to chat more- I am passionate about my field!

As an aside- once I got my masters degree, I started working at a major teaching hospital. I grew up working like crazy- I had my first job at 15 and worked throughout HS, undergrad, graduate school (I have a masters degree.) I quickly realized that none of the doctors or PhDs or Directors had any intention of having their kids work for money throughout their schooling. The kids all treated their education (and athletics, for those so inclined) as a serious full-time job. Pretty much across the board, their kids were successful and went on to build their own place in the Upper Class. The jobs may have been different (going into finance instead of medicine) but the economic class remained the same. A lot of factors explain the outcomes, but clearly, their lack of working for money didn't harm them. In fact, I think the kids overall had a much better grasp on financial value than I had, even though I was many years older!

My H and I have only one son, and I am in my mid-40s, so he is our one and only. Before, I thought I'd have him working so he would understand the value of money. I've changed my mind on it. I don't think there is anything wrong with you and your exH paying for your kids' educations; if you can, it is a great gift. I think the odds are greatly in favor of you daughter turning out just like your sons.


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## azimuth

When I was a teenager I said some mean things to my parents and had a ****ty attitude about life in general. But I grew out of it and I’m sure your daughter will, too. You've already made a huge sacrifice by uprooting your life so you can pay her tuition. She doesn’t appreciate it now but she WILL I promise. My dad paid for mine and my brother’s tuition for a private college and I didn’t really appreciate it at the time, but I do now without a doubt.

I pay it forward by paying for my daughter’s private school (currently elementary) and plan on paying her high school through college as well. My dad paying for mine helped me in so many ways. It allowed me to get a job where I can afford to pay for her on my own and I’m happy to do it! She’s the reason I work so hard anyway.

I think the teenage years are where the rewards are reaped later. I like the idea of having a heart to heart talk with her. Maybe tell her how much you love her and have sacrificed and how that is tangible proof that you’re not who her dad says you are. I know this is a difficult time. My heart goes out to you.


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## DustyDog

Hope Shimmers said:


> So you are of the mindset that anyone who works to create a good career and job is "financially spoiled"? Well, to each their own I guess.


Nope. I am of the mindset that 'financially spoiled' is about spending behavior, not earning behavior.

There's a litmus test for whether a person is doing a good job of financial management.

If your income doubled, would your lifestyle change? If "yes", then you're not managing well. 

"Management" of anything means that you pick a goal, then do what it takes to get there. You select a lifestyle choice - then create the career and income to afford it.

If, instead, you simply let your lifestyle bloom as your income grows, then the lifestyle is not one you chose - it's what your paycheck led you to.

If, when earning more, what you choose is to pay for more support - e.g. housekeeper, lawn service, then what you're doing is creating more time to be with family and friends. If, on the other hand, you're using the added income to buy more stuff - that's spoilage. 



Hope Shimmers said:


> No one has ever called me "financially spoiled" before, to be honest. I worked hard for every dime I ever earned. I did not choose my career based on money. If that were true, I would still be doing clinical work.
> 
> You might want to be careful about calling people names when all you have to base anything on is a couple of posts on an internet forum.


You can and have purchased cars for kids and paid enough for school that they didn't have to work their way through. That's financial privilege in the top 10%. In the USA, two six-figure incomes puts a family in the top 2%.

I called nobody a name. I described behavior, exactly as sociologists observe it.

BTW, in an earlier part of my life, I was at these income levels, too. I still could never bring myself to hire housekeeping and lawn maintenance, pretty much all I did was pay off debts incurred in my 20s...not very large.



Hope Shimmers said:


> Having said that, we did create spoiled kids. Why would anybody think this could change? Because my older son is no longer like that, and my second son is headed in that direction too. The daughter is the first child who has been disrespectful to me.
> 
> Thanks for your opinion.


Be careful. "disrespectful" is a word used by the privilege.

As philosophers and other worldly observers of humanity have said: your kids owe you nothing. They did not ask you to procreate. They do not owe you respect at all. And, she is now at an age where it is her obligation to throw off the rules of childhood and try her own set of rules. You will be disrespecting her if you tell her she can't.

That doesn't mean you can't put boundaries on your behavior with her...just do it for YOU, not for her.

In other words:

"We have decided that we will only pay for half of school. Those are our priorities". Good.

"We have decided that you need to be responsible for 50% of your school costs." Bad.

Google the web for the concept of "I" statements versus "You" statements and make sure your communications with her are "I" statements. You can and must state your boundaries, but at her age, she is not neuroscientifically capable of having boundaries placed upon her by you. BTW, this relationship concept plays with the ex as well.


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## Hope Shimmers

DustyDog said:


> Nope. I am of the mindset that 'financially spoiled' is about spending behavior, not earning behavior.


And what on earth can you possibly know about my spending behavior? Nothing.



DustyDog said:


> If your income doubled, would your lifestyle change? If "yes", then you're not managing well.


I drive a ten-year-old Honda Accord. Wonder what you drive.



DustyDog said:


> "Management" of anything means that you pick a goal, then do what it takes to get there.  You select a lifestyle choice - then create the career and income to afford it.


No, sorry. I didn't choose my career based on my "choice" of a lifestyle. That would mean most physicians choose their career to support their desired lifestyle. True for some, but false for more. You generalize.



DustyDog said:


> You can and have purchased cars for kids and paid enough for school that they didn't have to work their way through. That's financial privilege in the top 10%. In the USA, two six-figure incomes puts a family in the top 2%.


Well, duh. That's why I posted the thread in the first place. 

So what if it's in the top 2 percent? If I worked for every dime, it's not a "privilege; it was earned. By me. That was never the point, and you are the only person who replied that interpreted it that way.



DustyDog said:


> I called nobody a name. I described behavior, exactly as sociologists observe it.


You called me financially spoiled, when you don't know the first thing about me, my financial situation, or anything else. You generalize. No sociologist I've ever met would say that.



DustyDog said:


> BTW, in an earlier part of my life, I was at these income levels, too. I still could never bring myself to hire housekeeping and lawn maintenance, pretty much all I did was pay off debts incurred in my 20s...not very large.


Well, pat yourself on the back.



DustyDog said:


> Be careful. "disrespectful" is a word used by the privilege.


No. "Disrespectful" is a word used to describe people who are disrespectful.

Your problem is that you have an unreasonable bias against people who have potentially high incomes and you jump to erroneous conclusions as if those people are all exactly the same.

Hope you don't need one of those "privileged" doctors one day. 

Thanks for your opinion; it is duly noted. Now I would appreciate it if you would stay off my thread.


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## Hope Shimmers

RoseAglow said:


> @Hope Shimmers, I work in a Contract Research Organization (CRO), helping sponsors run their clinical studies. Most of the studies I work on are pre-market, evaluating the safety and efficacy of new medications and collecting data to submit to the FDA and other health regulatory agencies, although we also do some post-marketing studies as well for new indications or just collecting more info long-term. At this point in my career, I oversee the monitors who go out to the sites to train physicians and site staff on the protocols, check data, ensure everyone is following FDA/Good Clinical Practices etc.
> 
> In my past roles, I've worked closely with medical monitors. All of them had worked in clinical practice for some time, and the MMs I've gotten to know best all came over to pharma for a better work-life balance. They still get to be on the cutting edge of medicine and in some ways, can make a positive effect over many more patients than they were able to do in clinical practice. I still interact with MMs and Regional Medical Liaisons (RMLs) but not the same degree. RMLs tend to have specialties (oncology, inflammation, cardiovascular, and so on) and cover small regions. They get to know all of the study physicians in the area and speak with them regarding studies, publication opportunities, recruitment challenges, etc.
> 
> I love my work. I do some travel, but most of the time, I work from home. I find it meaningful across several dimensions (personal satisfaction, career development, getting to help development my direct reports' careers.)
> 
> It's easier to get into CROs than into the actual pharma companies, IME. I've always stayed with the CROs because there is more stability there. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to chat more- I am passionate about my field!
> 
> As an aside- once I got my masters degree, I started working at a major teaching hospital. I grew up working like crazy- I had my first job at 15 and worked throughout HS, undergrad, graduate school (I have a masters degree.) I quickly realized that none of the doctors or PhDs or Directors had any intention of having their kids work for money throughout their schooling. The kids all treated their education (and athletics, for those so inclined) as a serious full-time job. Pretty much across the board, their kids were successful and went on to build their own place in the Upper Class. The jobs may have been different (going into finance instead of medicine) but the economic class remained the same. A lot of factors explain the outcomes, but clearly, their lack of working for money didn't harm them. In fact, I think the kids overall had a much better grasp on financial value than I had, even though I was many years older!
> 
> My H and I have only one son, and I am in my mid-40s, so he is our one and only. Before, I thought I'd have him working so he would understand the value of money. I've changed my mind on it. I don't think there is anything wrong with you and your exH paying for your kids' educations; if you can, it is a great gift. I think the odds are greatly in favor of you daughter turning out just like your sons.


Thank you for this reply! I may PM you for more info.

I wondered if you work for a CRO. I applied to some of those a few years ago, but most (at that time) required a move, which I couldn't do. I'll have to check it again as it seems that now things have changed.

I love your attitude towards your career. The main reason I gave up most clinical work a few years ago and started medical writing was because my daughter has a serious medical condition, and I needed a lot more flexibility to care for her. I still need the flexibility but also the mental stimulation of a good job.


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## turnera

Hope Shimmers said:


> I have to do the same for my daughter as I did my sons. But I never agreed with it -- I didn't think that handing them everything was the right thing to do. But my ex-H threatened to take me to court. He also tried (and still is trying) to ruin my relationship with my kids, telling them that I'm a pathetic selfish mother. Now my daughter is calling me the same thing if she doesn't get her way.
> 
> My daughter sounds just like him now. She calls me pathetic if she doesn't get everything she wants.
> 
> I feel completely defeated and backed into a corner.


A couple things. First, tell him to go ahead and take you to court. How do you deal with a bully? By taking away that thing they beat you over the head with. "Knock yourself out, dude. I don't agree and I'm not doing it."

Second, DO NOT give this girl another penny. Your job as her mom is to teach her how to be a decent human being. Your acquiescence is starting to ruin that prospect. Her only hope at this point in turning out decent is for you to find your cajones, and STOP kissing her butt. "You don't like how I'm raising you? There's the door. You're 17. Go do whatever you want. Go live with your dad. But if you think I'm going to give you anything else when you give me THAT attitude, you're sorely mistaken. Respect is earned, not given. And right now, you don't deserve my respect."


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## turnera

Hope Shimmers said:


> I won't treat the third child differently than the other two, at this point. I just hope she comes around eventually.


Tell me why you think she will change who she is?

And are you in therapy? You need to get to one, asap.


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## ButtPunch

I don't get it. You provided this opportunity for your son's but don't feel like doing it
for your daughter. 

I could see where this would be a tough pill for your daughter to swallow.


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## Hope Shimmers

turnera said:


> A couple things. First, tell him to go ahead and take you to court. How do you deal with a bully? By taking away that thing they beat you over the head with. "Knock yourself out, dude. I don't agree and I'm not doing it."
> 
> Second, DO NOT give this girl another penny. Your job as her mom is to teach her how to be a decent human being. Your acquiescence is starting to ruin that prospect. Her only hope at this point in turning out decent is for you to find your cajones, and STOP kissing her butt. "You don't like how I'm raising you? There's the door. You're 17. Go do whatever you want. Go live with your dad. But if you think I'm going to give you anything else when you give me THAT attitude, you're sorely mistaken. Respect is earned, not given. And right now, you don't deserve my respect."


Already did that. She went to live with her dad.


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## Hope Shimmers

ButtPunch said:


> I don't get it. You provided this opportunity for your son's but don't feel like doing it
> for your daughter.
> 
> I could see where this would be a tough pill for your daughter to swallow.


First of all, my daughter has no idea about any of this, so there is no "tough pill for her to swallow". It isn't that I don't "feel like doing it" for my daughter. It's just that she is the one of the three who is acting out, so it made me think about it. I just thought I would get some opinions on it, if you don't mind. 

Second, I certainly will be doing the same for her as I did the others. 

Third, and this is directed at turnera also, all three of my kids had jobs. Just not enough to pay for everything. We didn't let any of the kids have cars until they had a job and could put gas in it and pay insurance.


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## turnera

Oh, I'm not questioning your parenting. I think you did fine. Just giving advice for moving forward. And if she's living with him, that explains everything. I still wouldn't give her anything. Respect is earned. But a therapist will help you establish some boundaries for the upcoming battles that are sure to come, now that she's turning into a MiniMe of her dad. If she's not even living with you, send a check and be done with her until she shows some respect. That would be the best thing you could do for her - showing her a consequence for bad behavior. She just might learn something.


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