# Seeking other's wisdom



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I have been married 27 years now, in what most would consider (myself included) a successful marriage. We raised two children together, have completely compatible views on most of life's important questions, never argue about money, and get along well. I'm not trying to paint a picture of perfect marital bliss, all butterflies and rainbows, but finding someone whom you don't fantasize about smothering with a pillow every night after more than a quarter century is hard enough. 

Except in the bedroom. She was a good Catholic girl who figured any guy who wouldn't wait until marriage for sex wasn't worth getting. So I did - reluctantly, but I managed. She hates it when I say this today, but I picked her for my wife not only because I loved her, but because she ticked off all of the important points I thought I wanted in a mate. The Rumsfeldian problem was the unknown unknown. I didn't at the time realize that people could be of such vastly different desires and tastes in the bedroom. The one long term previous relationship I had featured none of these problems.

This has been without a doubt the greatest sticking point in our marriage. I have accepted that it will not change, and I don't hold this against her. People no more choose what to like in bed than they choose which foods they like. Even if a counselor were to force the issue, any changes made would ultimately be resented and I have never had any desire to have an intimate relationship with someone who is only participating as a hostage. 

As I near 50, I'm getting a clearer vision of the fact that my time is running out on making a substantial change in my sex life. I'm not even sure if I want to, but I don't want to go down without at least swinging at a pitch. What I'm looking for here is the collective wisdom of the group from those who have found themselves in the same position. What choice did you make? How did it go? Do you regret your choice? What would you do differently? 

In 10 or 15 years I probably won't care about this problem any more. I don't want to destroy an otherwise successful marriage on a "greener pasture" that turns out not to even be made of grass. Nor do I want to miss out on the last opportunity I might have to experience fulfillment in this area if that's even possible.

Thanks for your time.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm not as old as you, and I've only been married for ~15 years. Like you my wife was a virgin when we married. Like you, outside the marriage life is great. Like you, sexually my wife are day and night different.

Unlike you though I decided to fight for some change in our sex life. I've asked that my wife read some books on the subject. I discussed what more I needed out of the marriage. It's so far been 3 years that I pushed for change. Unfortunately for me I went about trying to get change the incorrect ways (based on lack of results) for most of those 3 years. Recently though, between seeing a sex therapist and the advice I've received from this forum things are just starting to show some change for the better. The best part is that my wife's attitudes and perceptions are changing, so it's not an act and there's no resentment on her side that's building (as you seem to fear might happen). Things aren't perfect still, and we have a ways to go until I'd say we have arrived to where I want us to be. Still the recent developments have been very encouraging.

I would really encourage you to fight for the change you want to see in your marriage. Talk to your wife about going to a sex therapist.

While we aren't finished yet, my wife and I have started reading through this book together. So far it's also been a help for us (it has a Christian focus as well, which might be of comfort to your wife): Amazon.com: Sheet Music: Uncovering the Secrets of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage (9782913356559): Kevin Leman: Books


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## tjohnson (Mar 10, 2010)

I have to say I have never had the need to have my wife to the kind of 36 that you are looking for. I disagree that your premise ;“People no more choose what to like in bed than they choose which foods they like” (I believe that you are operating under) IE that someone cannot/should not be expected to change in this regard. Unless her sexual performance is somehow based on physical shortcomings then the only thing that would need to change is how she acts in bed. I believe that this can change if the person wants to and can get to the root of their inhibitions. I am taking a leap that you feel she is inhibited. 
The fact that you have accepted these things does not give your wife some right to not change or not want to change. There should be no “grandfather clause” in a marriage. 
It would be interesting to know what activities are missing or suboptimal or it is just a frequency issue so others can give you better insight. If you have followed this forum you may find that the responses have a tendency to be biased by gender. Not sure if your post will have similar attributes.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I wouldn't say I haven't fought for change - rather, I have fought and failed and lost interest in the fighting. 

It is good to hear that time with a therapist is useful. I haven't heard a lot of success stories in that regard. The topic has been raised in the past. She fears that she can't change, certainly doesn't want to change, and expects that a counselor will tell us that a divorce is our only option.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Yep and you wonder why people have mid life crisis? 

Yes you are wrong in your premise but i it too late. People don't know what food they like unless they try it. You make no request or have expectation, then why should she change at all. 27 years does that mean the kids are out of the house? If so what is it you really want?

Does your wife like sex? The simple baseline is does he orgasm? Do you have sex on a regular basis? What do you want or expect? Have you talked about it? Is this something you are ready to stand up for and demand?

Frankly you married a virgin and she knows no better and probably doesn't care.

I just read the response above. If she loves you she won't divorce and will try......

The ball is in your court.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

tjohnson said:


> I have to say I have never had the need to have my wife to the kind of 36 that you are looking for. I disagree that your premise ;“People no more choose what to like in bed than they choose which foods they like” (I believe that you are operating under) IE that someone cannot/should not be expected to change in this regard.


Acceptance didn't come without some struggle and many failed attempts at change (plus a few small successes - when we were first married, the lights in the room had to be off). 

And yes, she is too inhibited for my tastes. Acceptable sexual activity is defined as face-to-face vaginal intercourse, and nothing else. Touching her is not allowed except where a well behaved masseuse would touch. Oral sex is absolutely forbidden and will never be tried. Toys are kinda creepy and not allowed. Foreplay is kissing and perhaps a little manual stimulation for me. Frequency is lower than I would like, but I have a lot of flexibility in that regard if the quality improved. 

Her dislike of the greater variety of sexual behavior is not simply an "I don't like it". It's more of the queasy can't even really imagine or think about it problem. Sort of the same reaction I have to Brussel Sprouts.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Cletus said:


> I wouldn't say I haven't fought for change - rather, I have fought and failed and lost interest in the fighting.
> 
> It is good to hear that time with a therapist is useful. I haven't heard a lot of success stories in that regard. The topic has been raised in the past. She fears that she can't change, certainly doesn't want to change, and expects that a counselor will tell us that a divorce is our only option.


My wife feared she couldn't change either. She has already changed some, and I'm still hoping for more. Now I know this is a sample size of one... still I'd say give it a go.

Really what do you have to loose? If it works out you get a more sexy version of your current wife who I'm sure you love. If it fails you're out a some money and little time.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Yep and you wonder why people have mid life crisis?
> 
> Yes you are wrong in your premise but i it too late. People don't know what food they like unless they try it. You make no request or have expectation, then why should she change at all. 27 years does that mean the kids are out of the house? If so what is it you really want?
> 
> ...


I didn't mean to imply that I have never tried to move things forward, only that I have mostly failed.

Yes, she likes sex. She is in fact the most consistently and easily orgasmic woman I have ever been intimate with. I would say that this is part of the problem, since there is very little effort required to get her needs met. 

Yes to all of the questions except "stand up and demand". That's more or less the point of this discussion, because if you demand, you had better be prepared to carry through with the "what else". I am willing to do that if necessary, but only if I don't get a barrage of responses saying "I went down that road and regret it". 

The ball IS in my court, and that's why I'm here. What do I want? What I really want is what I have now with the addition of sexual satisfaction. With this woman, if possible. Perhaps without her, if necessary and possible. What I don't want to do is look back in 15 years and realize I screwed the pooch (well, not literally anyway) and could have heeded the advice of others, so I am seeking it now.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Divorce is YOUR only option, not ours.

Tell your wife that you love her for everthing she is but that you need more.

I don't recall a commandment about positions


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

True story - my wife now likes almost every food she did not like prior to us being married (still does not like Tarragon, but she's tried). 

I think your late 40's/50's are the prime of your life. You spend your earlier years establishing a career and family, which is time consuming and exhausting. Once your career is established and your kids grown, it is you time - time to enjoy the life you've established.

Lastly, if she is religious, there are plenty of biblical references to the expected relationship between spouses and books by religious leaders that encourage alternative sexual techniques. Marriage is a religious and civil committment and both the bible and many state's laws assume marriage will include sex (it is constructive abandonment - grounds for divorce - for a spouse to deny the other spouse sex).

Good luck.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Divorce is YOUR only option, not ours.
> 
> Tell your wife that you love her for everthing she is but that you need more.


I know I have this option. 

Ideally, I'm looking for the opinions of those who have actually done this. If you stayed, were you satisfied, and why? If you left, same question. I know the theory - I'm looking for the data.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SprucHub said:


> True story - my wife now likes almost every food she did not like prior to us being married (still does not like Tarragon, but she's tried).


Ha! I would say that neither of us has learned to like food that we didn't like before, but we have definitely added lots of things that we had never tried to our palate. Perhaps that's a better analogy. 



SprucHub said:


> I think your late 40's/50's are the prime of your life. You spend your earlier years establishing a career and family, which is time consuming and exhausting. Once your career is established and your kids grown, it is you time - time to enjoy the life you've established.


Amen, brother. That's what I am hoping. That life isn't all that bad. I'd like it to be even better while there's still time.


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

Cletus said:


> People no more choose what to like in bed than they choose which foods they like.


Not in my world or my marriage. example:

Carol likes all sorts of foods. She likes ethnic cuisine from around the world. If she hasn't had it before that makes it automatically wonderful... at least to try. I, on the other hand, am a food-sissy. But I love Carol... a lot. So I am actively and consciously seeking to cultivate a broader palate. I'm taking us to ethnic restaurants and I am disciplining myself to not hate the food simply because it's unknown. I am, with malice aforethought, learning to find things on different menus that I like and learning to like still others. I believe it's called "an acquired taste" and Carol is more than important enough to me to be worth the trouble.


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