# Acceptance of LD



## P51Geo1980 (Sep 25, 2013)

So I read a thread in the general relationships forum about emotionally unavailable spouses and it made me think. I view this in the same way as some view being LD. Many of the LD spouses here cry that they should be accepted as LD and that the partners shouldn't complain about duty sex. Shouldn't the same standard be held for those who are emotionally unavailable?  We view emotional unavailability as something that should be treated - shouldn't the same thing be said for being LD? Shouldn't the HD partner ask the LD one have their hormone levels checked and go to counseling to fix being LD?
_Posted via Mobile Device_

ETA: why do we seem to accept one (LD) but not the other (emotional unavailability)?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It is a good question...and yes, any spouse who isn't happy and isn't getting their needs met should talk to their spouse and see what can be done.

But if the other spouse refuses or can't or won't change...then the spouse with the problem has as a choice: accept it, or leave.

We can't really force our spouses to work with us on these things. We can ask them to, and we can explain the consequences if they don't or won't or can't...but we can't make them.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

P51Geo1980 said:


> So I read a thread in the general relationships forum about emotionally unavailable spouses and it made me think. I view this in the same way as some view being LD. Many of the LD spouses here cry that they should be accepted as LD and that the partners shouldn't complain about duty sex. Shouldn't the same standard be held for those who are emotionally unavailable? We view emotional unavailability as something that should be treated - shouldn't the same thing be said for being LD? Shouldn't the HD partner ask the LD one have their hormone levels checked and go to counseling to fix being LD?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i view not meeting any needs of a spouse as a form of betrayl of wedding vows.

seems like how it is all handled is where it all goes wrong.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I too agree that not meeting each others needs is breaking of marriage vows.

If hubby or wifee is HD and the other half is LD, the LD should still be making the effort to meet the HD spouses needs, without indicating its duty sex. And the HD spouse should be going out of their way to meet the LD spouses other needs. Each of them are to meet their other half's needs and not either own first. It's a nice circle, no beginning and no end.

But if the HD spouse is taking care of the LD spouses other needs, but the LD spouse still isn't meeting the HD spouses needs, then there is a problem and that's when the HD spouse starts giving up and holding back on the LD's spouses other needs.....

LD individuals should make sure their bf or gf are LD as well before getting seriously involved and married. Be true to yourself.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

People can't change their basic nature. It is up to the unhappy spouse to recognize the issue and decide if they can live with it - preferably before marriage, but if necessary afterwards. Having lived with a LD spouse for too long, I will never again do so. If it ever becomes an issue again and can't be fixed in a short time, that will be the end of the relationship. The same would go for an emotionally unavailable spouse.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

x598 said:


> i view not meeting any needs of a spouse as a form of betrayl of wedding vows.
> 
> seems like how it is all handled is where it all goes wrong.


Any needs? So if my hb decides tomorrow that his needs include S&M them I as his wife am obligated to meet them?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I'm kind of mystified by the whole LD thing. For one - it doesn't seem that a lot of people.show their LD till after the marriage vows - which makes me wonder if other issues aren't at play.


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## P51Geo1980 (Sep 25, 2013)

MissScarlett said:


> I'm kind of mystified by the whole LD thing. For one - it doesn't seem that a lot of people.show their LD till after the marriage vows - which makes me wonder if other issues aren't at play.


I've often thought the same thing. I'm just curious as to why being LD isn't viewed as equally damaging as being emotionally unavailable. A lot of LD individuals have the attitude of "we I'm LD and my partner is just going to have to live with that."


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I accept both as such - but I'm not married to either of those things so its easy for me to accept as such because its not my problem.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

My guess is that the emotionally unavailable spouse is more often male. The sexually unavailable spouse is more often female. It is more culturally acceptable at this point to openly criticize typically male behavior. Men are not supposed to have excuses.


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## P51Geo1980 (Sep 25, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> My guess is that the emotionally unavailable spouse is more often male. The sexually unavailable spouse is more often female. It is more culturally acceptable at this point to openly criticize typically male behavior. Men are not supposed to have excuses.


This is absolutely not true and I kept it gender neutral for that reason. If you read through this forum you'll see many women who are married to LD males and many males married to emotionally unavailable females. I have the honored distinction of being married to a woman who is both!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I edited my responses because it's honestly not worth arguing about. Believe what you want.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I have no problem listening to my wife about her day, cuddling on the couch with my arm around her, under the blanket, watching some tv and having a nap. I have no problems doing things with her or giving her a lot of space. If she wants to watch a movie or UFC with me or go out with her gf, no problem. I have surprised her with cards, flowers, dinners, chores done without being asked etc. I do all this because she is my wifee and its my way of showing her I love her but since she is LD vanilla and never takes the initiative, I'm still supposed to just live with that and she doesn't have to change and make the effort taking care of my sexual needs?


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> My guess is that the emotionally unavailable spouse is more often male. The sexually unavailable spouse is more often female.


I have both ... emotionally and sexually unavailable *husband*. Both suck no matter the gender.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Isn't LD and emotionally unavailable the same thing??


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Emotionally unavailable partners do not resort to tricks - they are simply not there. Physically unavailable partners may resort to all kinds of tricks.... Pick your poison...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MissScarlett said:


> I'm kind of mystified by the whole LD thing. For one - it doesn't seem that a lot of people.show their LD till after the marriage vows - which makes me wonder if other issues aren't at play.


That's absolutely right. People do choose spouses to whom they are not sexually attracted for a variety of reasons.

My ex had a bunch of them. They equated to being a pleasant companion and good parent / provider. And, *she admitted she knew I would not have married her had she been honest about her lack of attraction to me / sex drive in general.*

It can't be all that uncommon.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

MissScarlett said:


> I'm kind of mystified by the whole LD thing. For one - it doesn't seem that a lot of people.show their LD till after the marriage vows - which makes me wonder if other issues aren't at play.


Doesn't take a genius to unravel this mystery. The LD party puts on an act and traps a spouse so they can derive whatever benefit they perceive comes from marriage (usually, financial support). Once the trap springs, the ring is on the finger, the legal papers filed with the court, there is no need to put more cheese on the trap. The only way out is for the victim spouse to file for divorce. If the victim spouse is male, earns more than the LD spouse, and is a father, the LD spouse gets rewarded for her fraud with child support and a generous property settlement.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The sex drive is there - after all the LD's are humans - but it is a control issue more than it is a desire issue to them. 

I maintain that an LD just like an HD has an internally defined SLA (service level agreement) of frequency and quality that are willing to provide. The LD's are simply astute enough to keep it "legit" to something that on the surface is not "awful" i.e. once a month . So, it becomes a control issue. 

One may argue about hormones this and low T that till they are purple but in practice it is all mental. 

Also LD's may not be able to compartmentalize as well as ND's or HD's. As a result job stress or resentment creeps into the cauldron and good bye nookie.

While one may be able to accept LD one would be well advised to dig deeper to seek the reasons. Vanilla flavor NMMNG or MMSL fixable LD is one thing but most people on TAM that deal with an LD partner are well past that stage so acceptance is a lot harder to comprehend.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

It's a selfishness issue. Simple as that. Their needs and desires are more important than their spouse's.


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

Yep. Sure is. I'm willing to bet that 90% of LD stuff IS a direct result of emotional unavailability, control and power dynamics.

(And if my H weren't willing to at least accommodate some of my BDSM proclivities, he wouldn't be my H. Same goes for oral: if he won't help keep the playground clean, cared for and occupied, it gets closed. I return it by accommodating his emotionally-driven LD...to a degree)


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I think if those with sexless spouses were honestly polled, most would admit their spouses withhold a helluva lot more than just sex and can't be counted on to meet any other needs, either.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Why is it expected for HD spouses to be there emotionally and other needs for the LD spouses, but the LD spouses don't have to change and meet the HD spouses sexual needs????


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## 40isthenew20 (Jul 12, 2012)

The LD party has to be confronted with it as a problem in the marriage, admit that they acknowledge it as such and that they want to make an attempt to change. Until that happens, there will be a lot of arguments and porn surfing.


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

The LD spouse has an obligation meet both emotional and sexual needs of the HD spouse, and vice versa. Sex problems are symptoms of other problems in the marriage.

And 40 got it, IMO: if one of the partners says it's an issue for that person, then it's an issue for both people.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> I think if those with sexless spouses were honestly polled, most would admit their spouses withhold a helluva lot more than just sex and can't be counted on to meet any other needs, either.


:iagree: This is absolutely true in my sexless marriage.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

CuddleBug said:


> Why is it expected for HD spouses to be there emotionally and other needs for the LD spouses, but the LD spouses don't have to change and meet the HD spouses sexual needs????


This is very true. Nobody spends hours waxing a car which has no engine. The logical consequence of abusing and neglecting someone is that they won't like you very much. Even the most patient and long-suffering soul on earth has limits. The most loyal dog will eventually leave you if you refuse to feed it and you kick it every time it approaches you.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> This is very true. Nobody spends hours waxing a car which has no engine. The logical consequence of abusing and neglecting someone is that they won't like you very much. Even the most patient and long-suffering soul on earth has limits. The most loyal dog will eventually leave you if you refuse to feed it and you kick it every time it approaches you.


But for spouses that want to "fix" their marriage, is this a productive route to finding a way back to intimacy?

I've often wondered about the approach that advocates for reciprocal neglect. That is, if you feel your LD spouse is not meeting your needs, you cease attempts to meet hers (or his.) Has anyone ever experienced success in bringing back true intimacy with this approach? I can see where it might cause the LD spouse to resort to duty sex motivated by fear of divorce or emotional neglect, but it seems to me this isn't what most folks want from a marriage. 

One of the reasons I ask is that my husband and I were in this situation when I entered a period of LD after having kids. After years and years of not being able to solve it, he did shut down emotionally and stopped meeting my needs. My reaction was to decide that I could live with it. Made myself happy in every other way that I could--had a great social life, kept myself in great shape, found new hobbies and people to enjoy them with. Basically left him to wallow in his misery. Had he initiated a divorce, I wouldn't have fought him on it. If I had initiated a divorce, I'm not sure what he would have done, but I suppose there was nothing he could have done to stop me. We'd now be divorced, co parenting our three kids, maybe re-partnered. 

Fortunately we were able to reconcile--I think because we never lost our love for one another and, underneath all the bitterness and frustration, we honestly were trying as hard as we could. We just were terrible at it. Looking back now, we see a dozen things we could have done differently. I guess we were just lucky to have held on for as long as it took for the dam to break, and to not have done permanent damage to our intimacy. Our connection is stronger now that it ever was, and I think we value it more than we ever did because we know how close we came to losing it all.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> I've often wondered about the approach that advocates for reciprocal neglect. That is, if you feel your LD spouse is not meeting your needs, you cease attempts to meet hers (or his.) Has anyone ever experienced success in bringing back true intimacy with this approach? I can see where it might cause the LD spouse to resort to duty sex motivated by fear of divorce or emotional neglect, but it seems to me this isn't what most folks want from a marriage.


And what course of action other than the above is available if everything else has been tried and failed? My wife believes that emotional connection needs end at the same time someone gets their driver license...


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> But for spouses that want to "fix" their marriage, is this a productive route to finding a way back to intimacy?
> 
> I've often wondered about the approach that advocates for reciprocal neglect. That is, if you feel your LD spouse is not meeting your needs, you cease attempts to meet hers (or his.) Has anyone ever experienced success in bringing back true intimacy with this approach? I can see where it might cause the LD spouse to resort to duty sex motivated by fear of divorce or emotional neglect, but it seems to me this isn't what most folks want from a marriage.
> 
> ...


Hope I reach the understanding that you did. I don't think that the techniques mentioned brings real desire and more intimacy, I think that it is just a recipe for duty sex or more stonewalling. Making your LD spouse more attracted to you is the key.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> And what course of action other than the above is available if everything else has been tried and failed?


Other than divorce? I don't know. 

I was asking if reciprocal neglect is ever _effective in reviving intimacy._ Has anyone here tried it and had it work in brining their wife's desire back? It is advocated much as a response to a LD partner, but it seems self defeating to me if the goal is to revive the marriage. 

Maybe the goal, by the time this method is attempted, is simply revenge? Or perhaps a way to protect oneself emotionally--a sort of self-preservation? At any rate, it seems a giving up of sorts. You can live with a spouse this way, but it's a route that often has no return. 



john117 said:


> My wife believes that emotional connection needs end at the same time someone gets their driver license...


I've never thought your wife was a very typical example of of an LD partner because of her BPD. I'm sure your suffering and need for support is no less real than any other person whose needs are not being met, but your marriage seems a much more complex case than the type so many sexually frustrated men come here to get help with. Maybe I'm wrong, though.


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

GettingIt, reciprocal denial did nothing for me. I got more resentful, and he was relieved. After 6 weeks, I got blunt and told him if he didn't seek IC, begin to meet my emotional and sexual needs and get help for some other psych stuff, I'd have to consider leaving.

It's never just about sex.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

techmom said:


> Hope I reach the understanding that you did. I don't think that the techniques mentioned brings real desire and more intimacy, I think that it is just a recipe for duty sex or more stonewalling. Making your LD spouse more attracted to you is the key.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I spiraled into low desire for my husband as a result of resentment. I was HD with him for ten years before that period, and we've successfully brought back our old sex life with a far deeper intimacy that we've ever had in our 24 year relationship. 

I don't this is the case for all LD individuals out there--some never have been and never will be high drive. And we never lost our love--it was there waiting for us all along, just buried under a lot of sh!t. I attribute our successful reconciliation to my husband's patience over the years. He isn't bitter or resentful, which is allowing him to reap the benefits of my gratitude for his perseverance and dignity during what must have been a very, very lonely time.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> I've never thought your wife was a very typical example of of an LD partner because of her BPD. I'm sure your suffering and need for support is no less real than any other person whose needs are not being met, but your marriage seems a much more complex case than the type so many sexually frustrated men come here to get help with. Maybe I'm wrong, though.


Only because I have figured out what is going on... Given how many undiagnosed or misdiagnosed personality disorder people are put there I doubt my case is an outlier.

No worries about suffering - I make sure the wealth is spread . And support... Let's just say that long as my agenda is met we're good.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Other than divorce? I don't know.
> 
> I was asking if reciprocal neglect is ever _effective in reviving intimacy._ Has anyone here tried it and had it work in brining their wife's desire back? It is advocated much as a response to a LD partner, but it seems self defeating to me if the goal is to revive the marriage.
> 
> ...


Yes it does work (albeit temporarily in my case). My theory is that talking only goes so far with some people. You can express unhappiness all you want, but sometimes it takes seeing what life without your spouse is actually before you understand what is at stake.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

DTO said:


> Yes it does work (albeit temporarily in my case). My theory is that talking only goes so far with some people. You can express unhappiness all you want, but sometimes it takes seeing what life without your spouse is actually before you understand what is at stake.


Why only temporarily? Did she really see what was at stake and decide it wasn't good enough? Or was it just too late?

I guess I was looking for true success stories, where it's not just the behavior that changes, but where a true repair and deepening of intimacy occurs.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Why only temporarily? Did she really see what was at stake and decide it wasn't good enough? Or was it just too late?
> 
> I guess I was looking for true success stories, where it's not just the behavior that changes, but where a true repair and deepening of intimacy occurs.


It was your former reason. She said she knew she had issues but did not see the benefit to me (of fixing those issues) as worth the effort she would have to exert to fix them. Note the implication of what she said:

* A better sex life was strictly for me (she saw no direct, immediate benefit for herself so essentially there was none - very stupid of her, frankly).

* Inflicting serious baggage on your spouse (rather than resolving it) is an appropriate way to conduct yourself.

Nonetheless, at least she tried to improve (and it lasted for a little over a month). Nothing would have changed and she would not even have tried if I hadn't pulled back consistently and let her feel the loss - of this I am sure.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

DTO said:


> It was your former reason. She said she knew she had issues but did not see the benefit to me (of fixing those issues) as worth the effort she would have to exert to fix them. Note the implication of what she said:
> 
> * A better sex life was strictly for me (she saw no direct, immediate benefit for herself so essentially there was none - very stupid of her, frankly).


I have to say, fixing sex and intimacy with my husband is the best thing I have ever done for myself. I hardly recognize my husband and my marriage (in a good way.) 

Once my desire came back, it was like a snowball effect. More than six months later, we are still continuing to rebuild and improve what had become so damaged and destructive over the course of ten years. 

But there is no way someone could have convinced me that this would be the case when I was struggling with low desire. 

I struggle to offer advice to frustrated partners of formerly HD spouses who are now LD. Helping a spouse rekindle lost libido has to be one of the most fraught processes in a relationship. They really have to want to do it on their own. 



DTO said:


> * Inflicting serious baggage on your spouse (rather than resolving it) is an appropriate way to conduct yourself.


For those ten years of my low desire, I never fully appreciated what my husband was going through. I blamed his behavior on a million other things (our marriage had its share of issues, although nothing out of the ordinary). I wanted him to fix himself. I feel so abashed now that I didn't understand what sex with me meant for him, even though he tried to tell me. 

I truly didn't feel like I was inflicting any baggage on him--I thought we had the baggage, and that's why my libido was gone. Ugh. It was a very vicious cycle for us. 



DTO said:


> Nonetheless, at least she tried to improve (and it lasted for a little over a month). Nothing would have changed and she would not even have tried if I hadn't pulled back consistently and let her feel the loss - of this I am sure.


I suppose if it jolts a spouse into at least trying, then reciprocal neglect can be said to be useful. Like a previous poster said, though, the danger is in resentment creeping in and tainting any positive gains.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

DTO said:


> * A better sex life was strictly for me (she saw no direct, immediate benefit for herself so essentially there was none - very stupid of her, frankly).


And that's the whole LD HD saga crystallized into one statement. It's like blowing $100k on a sports car nobody else gets to drive...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I think using terms like "reciprocal neglect" frames the argument in a certain way with predictable results. I think most people, when the talk about pulling back, are really talking about positive and negative reinforcement to encourage the desired behavior. Rewarding good behavior and not rewarding bad behavior. One thing is certain; rewarding (with flowers, house cleaning, back rubs and more services) your spouses neglect will NEVER fix the problem.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> But for spouses that want to "fix" their marriage, is this a productive route to finding a way back to intimacy?
> 
> I've often wondered about the approach that advocates for reciprocal neglect. That is, if you feel your LD spouse is not meeting your needs, you cease attempts to meet hers (or his.) Has anyone ever experienced success in bringing back true intimacy with this approach? I can see where it might cause the LD spouse to resort to duty sex motivated by fear of divorce or emotional neglect, but it seems to me this isn't what most folks want from a marriage.
> 
> ...


In my case, I don't intentionally with hold anything from her. It is a natural reaction for me not to want to meet her needs. I lose the emotional connection that makes me want to make her happy. It is not a conscious response. I have a constant internal struggle when she needs someting from me. My intial reaction is to tell her to screw! but since I know she will never make the connection, I fight that urge and then decide if I should fill that need or not. If I followed my initial reactions life would be hell and my kids would ultimately suffer.

My wife has no idea what her LD is doing to our relationship. We have many discussions on it and she does not get the emotional connection for me. It not just the sex either there is no affection shared at all. If I try to kiss her, hug her or touch her affectionately she thinks I am only after sex.

Maybe the only way this approach would work is if after many months of ignoring her needs and just short of a complete failure I were to stop and specificly ask her how she liked the past several months. Then inform her that I have felt this way for 20 of our 26 year marriage. I bet her reaction would be to blame me for intentionally cutting off her needs, because after all I was only doing it to get sex.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

where_are_we said:


> I sort of did what you did. I shut down. It did not work for me. Later, he told me he KNEW that I had shut down because I was unhappy. He said he purposely did not change his behavior in an attempt to not give me what he knew I wanted. He said he did not like that I was manipulating him. I did not think I was manipulating him. I basically gave up......but I think he was manipulating me, by knowing what it was I needed and purposely refusing to provide it.


You are right. If you expressed your needs clearly to your husband, and he purposely refused to meet those needs, he was the stubborn one and a manipulator. 

Sorry you had to deal with that, but glad you knew what was going on.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

I have started to accept that my wife is LD and not much can be done about it. Strangely enough, she wanted it this weekend. That broke our 17-week celibate streak. That makes 6 times this year. 

I would not say that I am reciprocally neglecting her. I have stopped initiating and trying to be intimate. Besides that, I have not changed anything. I am affectionate and still do my best to make her life easier. She has no need for intimacy apparently so no neglect happening there. The result, nothing. Life goes on much the same as it did when I was initiating.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think using terms like "reciprocal neglect" frames the argument in a certain way with predictable results. I think most people, when the talk about pulling back, are really talking about positive and negative reinforcement to encourage the desired behavior. Rewarding good behavior and not rewarding bad behavior. One thing is certain; rewarding (with flowers, house cleaning, back rubs and more services) your spouses neglect will NEVER fix the problem.


Yes, and I wanted to frame it in a way that meant a more aggressive pulling back emotionally, rather than cutting of "services." 

I agree very much that "services" as a means to get more sex are a waste of time. 

My husband's attempts to provide "services" didn't work because I didn't see them as something he was doing to try to earn sex. Ultimately, I think it made things worse because he was doing these things with a result in mind, not getting the result, and then getting resentful and pissy when I rejected him.

He never said "I'm doing the dishes and getting up at night with the baby so you'll fvck me." And why would that behavior make me want to fvck him? That's not why I'd desired him for the ten years before we had kids. That's not what he used to do to make me wet. Problem is, I don't think he knew what turned me on, and he let that part of himself die when he decided to become "mommy's helper" instead of the man of the house.

Yes, I said I was tired. Yes I said I was sick of being touched after a full day with a toddler and an infant. Yes I was sleep deprived and felt sloppy and unattractive. Lots of reasons for not wanting sex--NONE of which had to do with needing him to provide more "services," and all of which were TRUE.

I just needed him to be the man he'd always been, and I needed the space to figure out how to get back to being the sexual, HD woman I'd always been. 

Space. Time. Not help with the housework. 

But he tried to trade services for sex, and that damaged my desire and, I think, my respect, for him. He wanted pay for his services that, although I was grateful for, weren't doing squat for my desire. 

Frankly, little would have increased my desire in those first few years of parenthood--but we probably could have had more physical contact than we were having. We _certainly_ could have avoided damaging our intimacy so terribly that it took us ten years to recover. 

And during those ten years, he did pull back emotionally and spiraled deeper into a sort of depression that made him even less attractive to me. I knew I needed him to "man up" before my desire would come back. But he was waiting for my desire to come back because he didn't know that's what I needed. Was his pulling back and shutting down emotionally part of a planned "reciprocal neglect?" I doubt it (he was so miserable, I don't think he would have chosen to live like that), but it made no improvement in our situation. If anything, it forced me to write him off and move on with my own happiness without him. If he would have moved on happily, too, THAT would have made him attractive to me. He he stopped caring about just about everything that he used to enjoy. 

Maybe that's the key--use "reciprocal neglect," but don't be miserable and resentful about it? 

We both understand what happened now. I know a lot of women don't like MMSL (and I've never been there except to send it to my H after reading about it here) but he's found it very helpful. (He said he finds TAM too depressing, but I find that it helps me.) He's back to being the very alpha male that I fell in love with, and it definitely is having a huge affect on my desire for him and my respect for him as my partner. He looks different to me, smells different to me, tastes different to me, and the feeling I get when he touches me is electric. It's like we're both 24 again. 

I guess this is just a long way of saying that if pulling back helps the HD partner improve his or her life, then it has a purpose. But it might not help improve intimacy because the spouse might not be getting the message you are hoping to send.

I think we were just lucky. Something happened back in April to me when I first logged on to TAM and recognized my husband in the posts of so many men here. I suddenly, and with great clarity, understood what was happening to us, and that I had the power to turn it around. That kick started my desire enough to put the sex back in our marriage. And THAT has been the catalyst for changes that I never would have guessed would come along.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

GettingIt,

Your story is quite interesting. There are some parallels between yours and mine. Anyways, thanks for posting.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> GettingIt,
> 
> Your story is quite interesting. There are some parallels between yours and mine. Anyways, thanks for posting.


I think it's a terribly common story: it's easy to get into the intimacy death-spiral, nearly impossible to dig out of. 

Unless you can both recognize it for what it is, you won't recover as a couple.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Yes, and I wanted to frame it in a way that meant a more aggressive pulling back emotionally, rather than cutting of "services."
> 
> I agree very much that "services" as a means to get more sex are a waste of time.
> 
> ...


There ia a lot of great information in your post. I wish this place existed in the early days of my marriage. But that was so long ago the internet didn't exist.

So what would you have recommended to your husband to get your libido jump started back then. He was following the conventional wisdom at that time. Mostly spread by other women. I followed the same pattern of trying to help even more, because that is what other women told me would help. I gave up all my Alpha hobbies gladly because of financial constraints. We both agreed that her being a SAHM was best for our children but that comes with a cost. I concentrated on being a great husband and father. I adopted hobbies that cost little and kept me at home. I remained the leader of the family guiding us to a better and better life. 

I will admit that after several years of neglect I did become needy and clingy looking for any chance to make that emotional connection I needed. I realized this was making it worse and dropped it, I tried for a care free attitude as hard as it was to just let things go.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> I think it's a terribly common story: it's easy to get into the intimacy death-spiral, nearly impossible to dig out of.
> 
> Unless you can both recognize it for what it is, you won't recover as a couple.


I am going to give it six months to a year after the birth of our child. If there is not some improvement on that front, then I am moving on. However, your story has given me some ideas to try in the meantime.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

tyler1978 said:


> I am going to give it six months to a year after the birth of our child. If there is not some improvement on that front, then I am moving on. However, your story has given me some ideas to try in the meantime.


Don't just "give it," actively work on it. Have a plan, and for god's sake talk to her about this if you haven't already. 

If your marriage is already in trouble, the going is going to get rougher after the baby arrives, so being as prepared as you possibly can is key.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Don't just "give it," actively work on it. Have a plan, and for god's sake talk to her about this if you haven't already.
> 
> If your marriage is already in trouble, the going is going to get rougher after the baby arrives, so being as prepared as you possibly can is key.


This thread is not about me so I will make it short but I put considerable effort into this during the last two years (2011 and 2012). Finally, this year I have pretty much given up.

I plan to try a few more approaches and if she acts as indifferently as she always does then I am going to let her know that I am strongly considering moving on.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Always Learning said:


> There ia a lot of great information in your post. I wish this place existed in the early days of my marriage. But that was so long ago the internet didn't exist.


I know, my husband and I are sort of kicking ourselves for not looking for help on the internet a long time ago. 



Always Learning said:


> So what would you have recommended to your husband to get your libido jump started back then.


I had no idea what to recommend to him because by the time I had the time to look up from dirty diapers and sleepless nights and the shock of becoming a SAHM, we were already in trouble. My desire for him was gone, and I didn't know why. It wasn't until very recently that I realized it was his transition to father and husband at the expense of his alpha traits that put my libido underground. I probably said things like "buy me flowers" or "take me out" or even "give me a weekend away from the children," but what I really needed from him was already gone. I couldn't just MAKE myself desire this new man he'd become. Sure I could have sex with him, but he could feel the difference, and he hated duty sex worse than no sex at all. 



Always Learning said:


> I will admit that after several years of neglect I did become needy and clingy looking for any chance to make that emotional connection I needed. I realized this was making it worse and dropped it, I tried for a care free attitude as hard as it was to just let things go.


The years that I saw my husband as needly and clingy were the worst years of all. I just didn't understand the emotional connection he was seeking; I really regarded his desire as all physical, and that made me feel like a piece of meat. It's not that I didn't believe that he was capable of wanting an emotional connection with a woman, but our marriage was so bad that I couldn't fathom that he would want it with me--I thought he hated me, so he just wanted to use me to get off. 

I've gotten a fair amount of flak here for saying that I "just didn't understand" what sex meant for my husband. But it's true. He tried to tell me often and regularly what lack of sex was doing to him, but he didn't phrase it as "lack of emotional intimacy with you." I've done a lot of reading about men and married sex these past few months, and I really, really missed the boat all those years. And if I did, then I know I'm not the only woman who has.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Always Learning said:


> There ia a lot of great information in your post. I wish this place existed in the early days of my marriage. But that was so long ago the internet didn't exist.
> 
> So what would you have recommended to your husband to get your libido jump started back then. He was following the conventional wisdom at that time. Mostly spread by other women. I followed the same pattern of trying to help even more, because that is what other women told me would help. I gave up all my Alpha hobbies gladly because of financial constraints. We both agreed that her being a SAHM was best for our children but that comes with a cost. I concentrated on being a great husband and father. I adopted hobbies that cost little and kept me at home. I remained the leader of the family guiding us to a better and better life.
> 
> I will admit that after several years of neglect I did become needy and clingy looking for any chance to make that emotional connection I needed. I realized this was making it worse and dropped it, I tried for a care free attitude as hard as it was to just let things go.


It hurts to not get some simple things that you need, and it's hard not to concentrate on the hurt.

I've gone through a similar cycle and now stuck on a don't care phase, because subconsciously I know that I'm going to get what I need one way or another.


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## testr72 (Jan 15, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> I spiraled into low desire for my husband as a result of resentment. I was HD with him for ten years before that period, and we've successfully brought back our old sex life with a far deeper intimacy that we've ever had in our 24 year relationship.
> 
> I don't this is the case for all LD individuals out there--some never have been and never will be high drive. And we never lost our love--it was there waiting for us all along, just buried under a lot of sh!t. I attribute our successful reconciliation to my husband's patience over the years. He isn't bitter or resentful, which is allowing him to reap the benefits of my gratitude for his perseverance and dignity during what must have been a very, very lonely time.


How do you know that he was loyal to you all these years of suffering that he endured.
I have to say that you are very lucky that he stayed and waited and hes very lucky that you changed.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

testr72 said:


> How do you know that he was loyal to you all these years of suffering that he endured.
> I have to say that you are very lucky that he stayed and waited and hes very lucky that you changed.


There is no way that I can know--just as there is no way that he can know that I was loyal to him. 

We have trust, though, that what we believe is true.

ETA: Agree that we were lucky. We could have easily ended up divorced.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Always Learning said:


> My wife has no idea what her LD is doing to our relationship. We have many discussions on it and she does not get the emotional connection for me. It not just the sex either there is no affection shared at all. If I try to kiss her, hug her or touch her affectionately she thinks I am only after sex.
> 
> Maybe the only way this approach would work is if after many months of ignoring her needs and just short of a complete failure I were to stop and specificly ask her how she liked the past several months. Then inform her that I have felt this way for 20 of our 26 year marriage. I bet her reaction would be to blame me for intentionally cutting off her needs, because after all I was only doing it to get sex.


It won't work. It would be like trying to explain organic chemistry to a sofa. 

I would even say that if you detach they seem to like it more since now they have confirmation that sex won't be happening in the foreseeable future. Long term planning never occurs.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> I know, my husband and I are sort of kicking ourselves for not looking for help on the internet a long time ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank You so much for your open honesty, it is so helpful to be able to get this information from someone who has been through it from the LD side. 

I have already come to the conclusion with the information from all the great posters here that the only solution will come, when and if the LD persons decides to make the changes on their own. I don't believe that there is anything I can really do to convince, help or say to my wife to make her want to be sexual with me. It isn't happening unless she wants it to. Even the threat of divorce would likely only bring an insincere change.

I find it so interesting that when your husband made the change to the Father role you lost your desire for him. Society has been putting increased pressure on men to become great fathers and role models for their children, to stop being the Alpha males of our single days and settle down. I would be willing to bet that if most LD women could look back at their marriages, and be as honest with themselves as you have been, they would come to the same conclusion (excluding the one's that were LD to begin with).

You deserve some high praise for being able to recognize these things and make the changes you have made. I really admire you.


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## testr72 (Jan 15, 2013)

So if he wasnt a caring father and more of an alpha male, would you find him more attractive at that time?


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

john117 said:


> It won't work. It would be like trying to explain organic chemistry to a sofa.
> 
> I would even say that if you detach they seem to like it more since now they have confirmation that sex won't be happening in the foreseeable future. Long term planning never occurs.


You are absolutely correct with this. I have natutally detached due to the lack of emotional connection. I did not detach on purpose it just happens. Since I rarely initiate or ask for sex she seems to be more content to let it go.

I think it's time for the roommate talk. I can't be the only one investing in this marriage.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> And during those ten years, he did pull back emotionally and spiraled deeper into a sort of depression that made him even less attractive to me. * I knew I needed him to "man up" before my desire would come back.* But he was waiting for my desire to come back because he didn't know that's what I needed. Was his pulling back and shutting down emotionally part of a planned "reciprocal neglect?" I doubt it (he was so miserable, I don't think he would have chosen to live like that), but it made no improvement in our situation. If anything, it forced me to write him off and move on with my own happiness without him. If he would have moved on happily, too, THAT would have made him attractive to me. He he stopped caring about just about everything that he used to enjoy.
> 
> Maybe that's the key--use "reciprocal neglect," but don't be miserable and resentful about it?
> 
> ...


This sentence jumped out at me. If you knew you needed this to revive your drive, did you communicate it to him? Or are you saying this was more of a subconcious awareness?

Congrats to you both on finding your way back to your old happy selves.


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## Kdolo14 (Oct 20, 2013)

*Re: Re: Acceptance of LD*



Faithful Wife said:


> It is a good question...and yes, any spouse who isn't happy and isn't getting their needs met should talk to their spouse and see what can be done.
> 
> But if the other spouse refuses or can't or won't change...then the spouse with the problem has as a choice: accept it, or leave.
> 
> We can't really force our spouses to work with us on these things. We can ask them to, and we can explain the consequences if they don't or won't or can't...but we can't make them.


I agree, but how long do you wait? I thought women get more sexually active as they get older...


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## Leelan (Oct 10, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Doesn't take a genius to unravel this mystery. The LD party puts on an act and traps a spouse so they can derive whatever benefit they perceive comes from marriage (usually, financial support). Once the trap springs, the ring is on the finger, the legal papers filed with the court, there is no need to put more cheese on the trap. The only way out is for the victim spouse to file for divorce. If the victim spouse is male, earns more than the LD spouse, and is a father, the LD spouse gets rewarded for her fraud with child support and a generous property settlement.


Thanks for breaking that down for people, because that is how I feel. Just like someone did a bait and switch on me, except I am the female who is the HD in the relationship. People have been treating me like I am a spoiled gold-digger or something, and have actually commented about my complaining. They don't get it. I feel tricked !


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## testr72 (Jan 15, 2013)

waiting will not guarantee anything. how long can you wait 5, 10 years or more?


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

I do not do the majority of the housework, shopping, and cooking as a way of getting sex. I do it mainly because I want things done. However, I am a good listener and back when I was trying I would listen to hear her say that she was too busy, too tired, too stressed. So I inferred that she meant that she needed help with these things. While she is appreciative, it has done nothing for our sex life.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Leelan said:


> Thanks for breaking that down for people, because that is how I feel. Just like someone did a bait and switch on me, except I am the female who is the HD in the relationship. People have been treating me like I am a spoiled gold-digger or something, and have actually commented about my complaining. They don't get it. I feel tricked !


This is really quite simple. People make promises. Decent people keep their promises or constantly strive to do so as best as they are able. Sadly, the world is also home to self-centered people that everyone should avoid. These people aren't clearly identified by a forehead tattoo, so normally-functioning people are often duped by them. They deserve to be bludgeoned and abandoned, but both are illegal. As they are self-centered wastes of DNA, if their lack of performance or motivation is mentioned, they'll always have a ready excuse (most often, blaming their abuse victim). Though their excuses are endless, their selfish behavior is the one constant you can always rely upon.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

One can want very badly to play tennis but unless the person on the other side of the net participates, it aint gonna happen.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Always Learning said:


> Thank You so much for your open honesty, it is so helpful to be able to get this information from someone who has been through it from the LD side.
> 
> I have already come to the conclusion with the information from all the great posters here that the only solution will come, when and if the LD persons decides to make the changes on their own. I don't believe that there is anything I can really do to convince, help or say to my wife to make her want to be sexual with me. It isn't happening unless she wants it to. Even the threat of divorce would likely only bring an insincere change.


My husband never gave up trying to communicate what sex with me meant to him. The conversations were never pleasant because they usually started with some other grievance and devolved into the sex talk. But I remember the last time he came to me about the sex issue. He brought it up as the one and only issue to be discussed, and he kept me on topic, not matter how I tried to squirm away and and turn it into a talk about our marriage, or about what I thought he needed. I clearly remember him asking ME to take a look at myself and see if there was anything I could to. After that things started to improve a bit between us--I think he did start to make small improvements in his own life that made me feel that he was trying to be happy again. But that talk stuck with me and I couldn't stop musing over it for the next few months. And then I did decide to take a look at myself. His approach during that last talk was very alpha--he was in control and was clearly not taking any sh1t. And I think I responded to that. 



Always Learning said:


> I find it so interesting that when your husband made the change to the Father role you lost your desire for him. Society has been putting increased pressure on men to become great fathers and role models for their children, to stop being the Alpha males of our single days and settle down. I would be willing to bet that if most LD women could look back at their marriages, and be as honest with themselves as you have been, they would come to the same conclusion (excluding the one's that were LD to begin with).


It wasn't so much that he transitioned to father role, but that he abandoned his masculine role with me. Men should be good fathers, they want to be good fathers, but that is not _all_ they should be, any more than the wife should permanently transition to just being mom. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "being the alpha male of his single days." Being "alpha" never has to equate with being an assh0le. Men aren't jerks because they are alpha, they are jerks because they are jerks--married or single. 



Always Learning said:


> You deserve some high praise for being able to recognize these things and make the changes you have made. I really admire you.


Thanks. I give my husband more credit, especially when I encounter so much bitterness here. He could have told me "too little too late." He could have cheated on me. But he welcomed me back with open arms and has jumped on the self improvement bandwagon. I feel so lucky and grateful that we were both able to see this as an opportunity to grow and repair our intimacy.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

testr72 said:


> So if he wasnt a caring father and more of an alpha male, would you find him more attractive at that time?


I don't know. I don't think being a caring father and being alpha are mutually exclusive, though.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> This sentence jumped out at me. If you knew you needed this to revive your drive, did you communicate it to him? Or are you saying this was more of a subconcious awareness?
> 
> Congrats to you both on finding your way back to your old happy selves.


I did tell him that his chronic unhappiness was affecting my feelings for him, that if he would just focus on finding something to make him happy that I would feel less pressure to "fix" thing for him. But someone as HD as my husband has a really, really hard time with rejection. The terrible stress of his career didn't help. He just had lost all confidence that anything he did would "fix" me. 

I call those years our "standoff" years. We both were stuck in a pattern that we needed the other to break first.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> My husband never gave up trying to communicate what sex with me meant to him. The conversations were never pleasant because they usually started with some other grievance and devolved into the sex talk. But I remember the last time he came to me about the sex issue. He brought it up as the one and only issue to be discussed, and he kept me on topic, not matter how I tried to squirm away and and turn it into a talk about our marriage, or about what I thought he needed. I clearly remember him asking ME to take a look at myself and see if there was anything I could to. After that things started to improve a bit between us--I think he did start to make small improvements in his own life that made me feel that he was trying to be happy again. But that talk stuck with me and I couldn't stop musing over it for the next few months. And then I did decide to take a look at myself. His approach during that last talk was very alpha--he was in control and was clearly not taking any sh1t. And I think I responded to that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have never equated Alpha with being a Jerk or Assh0le, I meant we are told we need to chage and settle down more as providers and Fathers. To give up going out with our buddies, put our motorcycles away, etc. I don't think (I could be wrong from her point of view) I ever stopped being Alpha. I still lead the family, I still take care of my stuff, I can and do fix everything. I have never had to hire someone to do work in our house. I have done jobs that most guys wouldn't dream of takling on their own. But my wife did make the permanant transition to Mom only.

I will have to take some notes from that last conversation with your husband. every time we have the talk she shifts the blame onto something else or gets mad and shuts down.

Again thanks for the great information.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Always Learning said:


> I will have to take some notes from that last conversation with your husband. every time we have the talk she shifts the blame onto something else or gets mad and shuts down.


The OP of this thread asks if the HD partner should ask the LD partner to seek therapy. I say: yes.

My husband didn't ask me to, but I did go to IC because I needed help with keeping my drive up even after my husband and I reconciled. I don't think I would be where I am today without the IC. 

Shifting blame, getting mad, shutting down--she's not confronting her LD because it's rooted in how she feels about you. For me it was very deep-seated resentment toward my husband--old resentments, new resentments. Resentment had become my go-to emotion toward him and I needed help breaking that pattern. 

If I could talk to your wife, I'd tell her to seek out IC. It's been very, very empowering.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> The OP of this thread asks if the HD partner should ask the LD partner to seek therapy. I say: yes.
> 
> My husband didn't ask me to, but I did go to IC because I needed help with keeping my drive up even after my husband and I reconciled. I don't think I would be where I am today without the IC.
> 
> ...


Fantastic response.

I do believe you are correct with the resentment she holds. We did some marriage counseling together several years ago. I thought she should have continued on her own. I never said it but in my mind she needed it. I think we had the wrong counselor anyway. I hols a lot as well but I can easily let go of it if she makes the right moves. I am not sure she can let go she holds onto everything even stuff that happened more than 20 years ago.

Do I wish you could talk to her, I would love to hear that conversation!


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