# Boundaries an issue



## KimD23 (Apr 6, 2015)

I’m hoping you all can shed some light on a situation between my boyfriend and myself. We work together and were friendly with each other before we started dating. When we were first together, in the “getting to know you” phase, we talked about how many times we had been in love in the past. My boyfriend detailed each time for me, one time being with a fellow coworker who he never dated but had only been friends with (I’ll call her Jen). I argued with him that he couldn’t have been in love with someone he had never been in a relationship with and in my mind that’s just a crush. He argued that it was definitely love and she made him realize he could “feel that way” again. 

A few months later, we are casually dating (not exclusive) and he takes a business trip to the town this woman lives in to a customer that is a mutual customer of theirs. They had dinner together, and he told me that after dinner she invited him back to her place to see her new house (she’s married and her husband was away). He didn’t hide from me that he was hoping something would happen, but it didn’t. This woman is only interested in him as a friend and nothing more.

Fast forward, things got serious with us and we were exclusive, he was scheduled to go back to that customer in her town. The night before I asked him to please not have dinner with her and go out with her (they’d go out and get drunk together) because it made me uncomfortable. We were up the ENTIRE night because he couldn’t understand where I was coming from, they were just friends, and nothing had ever happened between the two of them. He said he wouldn’t go out with her alone, but there would be 2 other men we work with with him and they would all go out together. I was still not comfortable with that, but he just couldn’t understand where I was coming from. After a long night getting nowhere, I got a text from him the next day saying “so X is also asking if we’re going out with Jen, so I can’t go with them?” What was I supposed to say to that? He knew how I felt and was fighting me on it. I told him to do whatever he wanted. Obviously they all went out and got drunk together.

Since then my boyfriend’s best (guy) friend moved to this city as well. We had been in the habit of visiting him and his wife quite often in their old city. Our very first visit to them in their new city (which also happened to be where Jen lived), my boyfriend brought up that he’d like us to all get together with Jen and her husband as well. This once again turned into an issue between the 2 of us because I just didn’t understand why he wasn’t getting where I was coming from, and why he couldn’t just have a professional relationship with her and not personal. From his perspective, he’s been friends with Jen for a long time (long before he and I ever got together), nothing has ever happened, and it’s not a big deal. From my perspective, my boyfriend was in love with this woman at one time and I’d prefer if their relationship was strictly professional. 

Let me note that I am also friendly with Jen. She’s a pretty, fun girl and I’ve gone out with her myself over the years. When she is in our office, she and I are friendly and she’s never ever given me a reason to doubt her or her intentions. My issue is strictly with my boyfriend and HIS feelings and what I feel is a lack of respect for MY feelings.

Over the years this issue has just gotten worse and worse. We’ve had the same argument almost every single time we’ve gone to visit our friends in Jen’s city. I’ll go there thinking he understands my issues and we won’t be going out with Jen and her husband, but my boyfriend, unbeknownst to me, every single time, tells her we will be there and asks if they want to get together. I find this out when we get down there (it feels like an ambush every time), and we end up fighting about it. At this point he gets very angry and threatens to end our relationship because I’m “abusing” him with this issue and making this girl “more important than she is.”

We need some direction because we just aren’t able to see this issue from each other’s perspectives, and we also don’t want to stop visiting our good friends that live in Jen’s city! This has been going on far too long. This only comes up as an issue when Jen is around (either in our city or when we are visiting hers), otherwise she is never even a thought for me. 

I guess for me the issue is that I don’t understand why, for me, he can’t just have a strictly professional relationship with Jen. From his perspective, we all work together, I am friends with her too, nothing has ever happened between them and they’ve been just friends for years, and I should be ok with them being friends and going out with her and her husband when we are in her city.

Am I being unreasonable? He certainly thinks I am and I’m starting to think that maybe I am crazy for feeling the way I feel. This has just come up again over the past few days because my boyfriend was scheduling a trip to that customer in her city and wanted to make it a trip for both of us to go see our friends as well and I told him I’d just prefer to stay home while he went. I was simply trying to avoid the argument again because I know this is Jen’s customer as well and they are going to want to get together. He’s told me that he can’t deal with this anymore and we have to figure it out because it doesn’t bode well for our relationship.

Any advice?


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

KimD23 said:


> I argued with him that he couldn’t have been in love with someone he had never been in a relationship with and in my mind that’s just a crush. * He argued that it was definitely love and she made him realize he could “feel that way” again.*
> 
> A few months later, we are casually dating (not exclusive) and he takes a business trip to the town this woman lives in to a customer that is a mutual customer of theirs. They had dinner together, and he told me that after dinner she invited him back to her place to see her new house (she’s married and her husband was away). *He didn’t hide from me that he was hoping something would happen, but it didn’t. * This woman is only interested in him as a friend and nothing more.
> 
> ...



From the bolded sections above, he is in love with her and he is attracted to her since he wanted "things" to happen. He feels it's ok to get drunk with her which puts him in a situation where it's inhibitions are decreased. He doesn't respect your views and he is clearly prioritizing her over your wishes when he visits her. The arguments are increasing and getting worse. This probably won't change. 

It is important for both people in a relationship to have the same boundaries with respect to opposite sex friends. You two clearly do not have the same views. If you two were to get married I don't think anything would change since he has shown no desire to respect your boundaries. This would provide for a very risky and potentially unstable marriage. Nothing has happened yet that you know of but what will be the likelyhood of that when the honeymoon stage of your marriage wears off? Will he start to confide in her about marital issues? If he did what is a friendship could turn into an emotional affair or worse. Also suppose you force him to break it off with her what will prevent his feelings growing for some other woman in or out of the office. He is in denial and putting your relationship at risk with his lack of boundaries.

He has stated effectively his way or the highway. My advice to you is to take him at his word and prevent heartbreak down the road and end it. Find someone who feels the same as you do about boundaries and opposite sex friends. You should be able to find someone who respects your feelings whom you also love.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

Since you two aren't married or even engaged he can do what he wants to do and if you don't like it then break up with him. You need to have trust in a relationship and you don't have that with him. Move on


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## KimD23 (Apr 6, 2015)

Thanks meson. I wish I could say I disagree, but that's what my heart has been telling me as well. 

The only argument I have with your response is that we've been together for 8 1/2 years now and, being divorced, I'm not in any rush to get back to the alter. Maybe not ever. Or maybe I'm just with someone that doesn't inspire me to want to. Who knows? In any case, there is not and never will be again, any "honeymoon" period. 

The "it's my way or the highway" attitude is what is is most distressing. This shouldn't be a big deal - when you love someone, you respect how they feel and you do your best to accommodate. It's not like I'm being unreasonable. Telling me he won't ever go to dinner with her alone is great, but that satisfies HIS boundaries, not mine. Why this is being forced on me is just baffling. 

I think part of it is that he's very naive. He doesn't understand how easy it is to go from a friendship with someone of the opposite sex to something more. Especially with someone we find attractive. Funny how we all think we can't fall prey to that...yet it happens all the time!


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## KimD23 (Apr 6, 2015)

Happilymarried25 said:


> Since you two aren't married or even engaged he can do what he wants to do and if you don't like it then break up with him. You need to have trust in a relationship and you don't have that with him. Move on


So I guess you feel that you have to be married to be in a committed relationship? I respectfully disagree. 

It's not a matter of trust. It's a matter of knowing how easy it is to go from being friends with someone of the opposite sex to an emotional affair, to cheating. This is a woman he's had strong feelings for in the past. We have other female friends that I have no problem with and go out with all the time.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

IMO, no one needs to "respect" another person's insecurities. That is a lose-lose situation. But here's the thing: this isn't about a friendship between two people of the opposite sex--in which case I'd say you were just being insecure and needed to trust him. This is about the fact that he has made it very clear he wanted/wants something with Jen.

Why would you even want to be with someone who wants to be with someone else?

8.5 years will just be 10, 15 years of knowing you are 2nd best. How can you settle for that? If you are going to settle for that, is is no one's business but yours--but make sure you make your choice with eyes wide open. And knowing you are #2, maybe you can talk to him about not flaunting it.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

KimD23 said:


> Thanks meson. I wish I could say I disagree, but that's what my heart has been telling me as well.
> 
> The only argument I have with your response is that we've been together for 8 1/2 years now and, being divorced, I'm not in any rush to get back to the alter. Maybe not ever. Or maybe I'm just with someone that doesn't inspire me to want to. Who knows? In any case, there is not and never will be again, any "honeymoon" period.
> 
> ...


I can understand how he feels. I had an OSF that I introduced my wife to when we were dating. If she didn't like her or didn't feel comfortable with us as friends I would have called it off with her. 

But you don't have the same views and he's pushing the limits. You both need to follow the boundaries and feel comfortable with them. You are right it is way too easy for it to become more.

Take heart though you can fall in love again and have a second honeymoon stage. My wife and I did after we fixed some communication issues and started dating again. It was a rush. 

Go with your heart...


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## KimD23 (Apr 6, 2015)

sisters359 said:


> IMO, no one needs to "respect" another person's insecurities. That is a lose-lose situation. But here's the thing: this isn't about a friendship between two people of the opposite sex--in which case I'd say you were just being insecure and needed to trust him. This is about the fact that he has made it very clear he wanted/wants something with Jen.
> 
> Why would you even want to be with someone who wants to be with someone else?
> 
> 8.5 years will just be 10, 15 years of knowing you are 2nd best. How can you settle for that? If you are going to settle for that, is is no one's business but yours--but make sure you make your choice with eyes wide open. And knowing you are #2, maybe you can talk to him about not flaunting it.


To be fair, his crush (what he calls love) for Jen was a good 2 years before he and I ever got together. When he wanted something to happen, he and I were both dating other people. He was not the only man in my life at that point, so being honest with me that he was attracted to someone else isn't a bad thing. 

I would never settle for being #2. That's not the issue. He says now, and has said during this entire crazy years-long issue that he is not interested in her and wants to be with me. That's partly why he just doesn't get where I'm coming from. In his head, this isn't an issue.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

KimD23 said:


> To be fair, his crush (what he calls love) for Jen was a good 2 years before he and I ever got together. When he wanted something to happen, he and I were both dating other people. He was not the only man in my life at that point, so being honest with me that he was attracted to someone else isn't a bad thing.
> 
> I would never settle for being #2. That's not the issue. He says now, and has said during this entire crazy years-long issue that he is not interested in her and wants to be with me. * That's partly why he just doesn't get where I'm coming from. In his head, this isn't an issue.*


I think you're being too quick to excuse him. He knows you have a problem with it, that's why he promises not to contact her when you go to visit but ambushes you once you're there by calling her and setting up a get together. Do you really think he doesn't get how you feel when he hides it until it's too late for you to do anything about it?

No, he understands how you feel, he just doesn't care.

So what if you give him an ultimatum like no contact ever again with her or no contact ever again with you. Which would he chose? My guess is he'd get all huffy that you can't control him and either insist he's not going to stop and dare you to take action or take it under ground and hide his contact with her. The one thing he won't do is stop.

I think you need to kick him to the curb. After all this time if you haven't been able to secure first place in his heart, and you haven't, you're not going to.


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## KimD23 (Apr 6, 2015)

Nucking Futs said:


> I think you're being too quick to excuse him. He knows you have a problem with it, that's why he promises not to contact her when you go to visit but ambushes you once you're there by calling her and setting up a get together. Do you really think he doesn't get how you feel when he hides it until it's too late for you to do anything about it?
> 
> No, he understands how you feel, he just doesn't care.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I came here for objective advice and to make sure I'm not crazy and it seems that I'm not. I didn't want to be right in this instance, of course, but it is nice to know my instincts are correct. He definitely DOES get that this is an issue for me - as you pointed out, he doesn't exactly talk about this with me before we visit our friends and just springs it on me when we get there. What he doesn't understand is why, and since he doesn't understand, then yeah...bottom line is that he just doesn't care enough.

I can't ask for no contact - he works with her. Apparently this means there needs to be a personal relationship as well where we see her and her husband on our vacation!

That last line hurts, but hey, the truth hurts!  Unfortunately you are clearly right.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Hmmm.....I'm going to disagree. Your boyfriend invites you to encounters he has with this woman. He's stuck with YOU through your (understandable) insecurity about her for 8.5 years. She's married, had him alone in her house, and did not make a move. She's not into him. 

I guess I'd say if you're not there, he can't see her, but if you're there, I see no issue, especially since you are also friends with her.


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## KimD23 (Apr 6, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Hmmm.....I'm going to disagree. Your boyfriend invites you to encounters he has with this woman. He's stuck with YOU through your (understandable) insecurity about her for 8.5 years. She's married, had him alone in her house, and did not make a move. She's not into him.
> 
> I guess I'd say if you're not there, he can't see her, but if you're there, I see no issue, especially since you are also friends with her.


Yes, he definitely invites me. It's always a couples thing when we see her/them. Her husband is great. I just am not comfortable being around them knowing he used to have feelings for her. Having said that, if he is there on business without me, he'll still invite her out with everyone (not alone).

She DEFINITELY is not into him. I'm 99.9% sure of that. That's not to say that one day she might change her mind if they are friends. Seen that many a time - a woman who thinks she is just friends with a guy and feels nothing for him...we he can suddenly start looking good if she feels neglected in her marriage.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Whether Jen is into him or not is irrelevant. Your bf had a huge crush on this woman, even would have slept with her WHILE SHE WAS MARRIED. What a jerk!

You are not being unreasonable OP, not many people would be comfortable with this.

If you were like this with every OSF he had, then yes, I'd say you were insecure and it's not his problem. That's not what's going on here though.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

KimD23 said:


> To be fair, his crush (what he calls love) for Jen was a good 2 years before he and I ever got together. When he wanted something to happen, he and I were both dating other people. He was not the only man in my life at that point, so being honest with me that he was attracted to someone else isn't a bad thing.
> 
> I would never settle for being #2. That's not the issue. He says now, and has said during this entire crazy years-long issue that he is not interested in her and wants to be with me. That's partly why he just doesn't get where I'm coming from. In his head, this isn't an issue.


But you are #2. He's settling for you because Jen has never been interested, but he's managed to spin a pretty nice fantasy world of rainbows and unicorns while having the ego boost of you waiting around for him. Make no mistake though, if she showed any interest he'd be there.

And the "my way or the highway" is often what you get from someone whose either not that interested in you or doesn't think you're going anywhere. Do yourself a favor and end it.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

This is my own personal belief so you can take it for what it's worth. The ONLY reason I would go to dinner with an ex is to rekindle things. 

If my spouse or bf/gf were to even ASK if they could go out with an ex would be enough for me to end the relationship.

I have an ex wife with a daughter and out of respect for my lady I love, it would be disrepectful to put her in the position of accepting such a ridiculus situation of 1:1. And because of my daughter it's the only reason to have any contact with her even though we are civil.

My advice is and what I would do if you just can't let go right now (which I recommend):
Make complete ultimatum and live with consequence. Tell him no second chance. Most likely he will fail the test but then you have clear answer.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

KimD23 said:


> It's not a matter of trust. It's a matter of knowing how easy it is to go from being friends with someone of the opposite sex to an emotional affair, to cheating.


 Why do you say that it is not a matter of trust, when in fact it is and should be a matter of trust? In your first post, your partner admitted to you that prior to you becoming exclusive, but while she was already married to her current husband, that "after dinner she invited him back to her place to see her new house (she’s married and her husband was away)", and that he didn’t hide from you "that he was hoping something would happen, but it didn’t." This means that given the chance, your partner would have cheated with this very same woman, never mind that she was married. Sorry, but he has already specifically told you why he cannot be trusted to respect her marriage, much less your non-married exclusive status. It is too late to make believe now that he is trustworthy around her, or that he respects her marriage.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

You need to face your situation truthfully. You are Plan B, a fallback. Your boyfriend is hovering for his chance for this woman who he loves. Yes, no mistake about this. Your boyfriend is in love with this woman for many years. All she has to do is give him a "go ahead" and he'll come running to her.

You will always be second best. As you are not yet married, give yourself the dignity and self-respect of moving on. You deserve a partner who will love you exclusively.


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## KimD23 (Apr 6, 2015)

TRy said:


> Why do you say that it is not a matter of trust, when in fact it is and should be a matter of trust? In your first post, your partner admitted to you that prior to you becoming exclusive, but while she was already married to her current husband, that "after dinner she invited him back to her place to see her new house (she’s married and her husband was away)", and that he didn’t hide from you "that he was hoping something would happen, but it didn’t." This means that given the chance, your partner would have cheated with this very same woman, never mind that she was married. Sorry, but he has already specifically told you why he cannot be trusted to respect her marriage, much less your non-married exclusive status. It is too late to make believe now that he is trustworthy around her, or that he respects her marriage.


Excellent point.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

I'll catch heat again here but I believe that you can have OSFs and keep within boundaries.

I'm in a committed long distance relationship but I still go out with a couple of people that I was intimate with before my girlfriend and I met and became exclusive. 

I like these people a lot and enjoy their company, they respect my relationship and I respect theirs. My girlfriend has met one of them and hopefully the other soon.

There's a big however here. My girlfriend always knows when I'm meeting either of them and where, she trusts me and has no problem with this. She also has a lot of guy friends most of whom I have met and again I trust her implicitly and have no problem with that.

The bigger problems I see here are that your boyfriend was hoping something would happen when she showed him her new house despite her being married and then arranging to meet without telling you because he knows that you don't want that. 

It doesn't sound like he is in with a chance with Jen but the fact that he didn't respect her relationship and doesn't respect your wishes is a big red flag.

Just my 2c worth.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

If you are convinced he is not interested in her anymore, then he is right not to give in to your demands. 

So if you are so sure he doesn't have a thing for her anymore, why do you care that he wants to keep her as a friend? Why aren't you on board with that?

Your "feelings" are either unjustified insecurity or a justified sense that something is a threat to your relationship. Either you get over it or you move on b/c he does not seem attached enough to be trusted. Which is it? Expecting him to change b/c you have unjustified insecurities is simply wrong and unfair. Step up, get over it, and be happy--or find someone about whom you have no doubt. 

Good luck, whatever you decide.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

sisters359 said:


> If you are convinced he is not interested in her anymore, then he is right not to give in to your demands.
> 
> So if you are so sure he doesn't have a thing for her anymore, why do you care that he wants to keep her as a friend? Why aren't you on board with that?
> 
> ...


sisters...I understand what you are saying, but he also was willing to sleep with a married woman. That shows a lot about his character. I understand your point about OSF, but in this specific relationship, there are other issues going on.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

sisters359 said:


> So if you are so sure he doesn't have a thing for her anymore, why do you care that he wants to keep her as a friend? Why aren't you on board with that?


 Many couples have boundaries that do even allow for opposite sex friends (OSF). For the many couples that do allow for OSF, most have boundaries against OSF that you have been intimate with, especially if you had feelings for that person. The reason that the majority of couples feel this way is because they know that once you have crossed certain boundaries with a person, it is much easier to do so again. 

With his history with this particular woman, she can never be sure that he could not develop feelings for her again. In this case you have a guy that fell in love with and had sex with this woman without ever having dated her, and where even after she was married, he still hoped that he could have sex with her again.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

KimD23 said:


> They had dinner together, and he told me that after dinner she invited him back to her place to see her new house (she’s married and her husband was away). He didn’t hide from me that he was hoping something would happen, but it didn’t.


 I am sure that after she had dinner with him, and then had him over alone to see her new house, that she told her husband that they were just friends. Never mind that this supposed just friend came over hoping to bang this married woman in the marital bed, any concern that her husband would have expressed would be dismissed by some on this board as being jealous and controlling. If you do not agree that just friends are not suppose to be looking to have sex with your wife, then we will just have to agree to disagree.


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## KimD23 (Apr 6, 2015)

TRy said:


> Many couples have boundaries that do even allow for opposite sex friends (OSF). For the many couples that do allow for OSF, most have boundaries against OSF that you have been intimate with, especially if you had feelings for that person. The reason that the majority of couples feel this way is because they know that once you have crossed certain boundaries with a person, it is much easier to do so again.
> 
> With his history with this particular woman, she can never be sure that he could not develop feelings for her again. In this case you have a guy that fell in love with and had sex with this woman without ever having dated her, and where even after she was married, he still hoped that he could have sex with her again.


Just to be clear, they have never been physically intimate with each other. Unless in his fantasies counts 

I have no problem with OSF. It's all about feelings and intent. One of my dearest friends now is a woman who was his friend first, and I don't mind their friendship at all. I'm not an insecure person generally - I only drew the line for this particular person because he had strong feelings for her in the past and also wanted to be with her. Since then, his inability to grasp how much of an issue this is for me and put an end to it is what further tells me I'm right in how I feel. If she wasn't important to him, he would have relegated their relationship to a professional one only as soon as I asked. The fact that he can't and/or won't do that, says a lot.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

KimD23 said:


> Just to be clear, they have never been physically intimate with each other. Unless in his fantasies counts
> 
> I have no problem with OSF. It's all about feelings and intent. One of my dearest friends now is a woman who was his friend first, and I don't mind their friendship at all. I'm not an insecure person generally - I only drew the line for this particular person because he had strong feelings for her in the past and also wanted to be with her. Since then, his inability to grasp how much of an issue this is for me and put an end to it is what further tells me I'm right in how I feel. If she wasn't important to him, he would have relegated their relationship to a professional one only as soon as I asked. The fact that he can't and/or won't do that, says a lot.


I do agree with you however this sounds like she put him firmly in the "friend zone". 

Most men will be able to tell you that the friend zone is like a black hole, quicksands and a whirlpool all combined. There is just no way back from the "friend zone".


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

WonkyNinja said:


> Most men will be able to tell you that the friend zone is like a black hole, quicksands and a whirlpool all combined. There is just no way back from the "friend zone".


 If your read the infidelity section on this site, you will see that this urban legend is far from true. Time and again, after years of being just friends, something changes and the relationship heats up. I think that this belief has its basis on the fact that if you are actively dating, and have been friend zoned, waiting years to see if that changes is not a good use of your dating time; if you are not willing to wait around for years, it might as well be never.


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