# re the why cheaters cheat



## PappyJack (Nov 1, 2013)

Re; the constant 'why cheaters cheat'
That question could only be asked in a modern, messed up society.
Any other in history would consider it a rhetorical question.

Two huge simple facts that modern Blue Pill society absolutely can not accept

Mix men and woman, you get babies.

Totally beyond the modern mind.

Men and woman are hardwired to 'fall in love' and procreate.
People who don't, don't have kids, thus we are not descended from people who don't easily 'fall in love'.

Modern society assumes people are robots, or worker bees.

Guess what. We are not.

Affairs start because men and woman freely associate. When they associate, the normal sex drive everyone has starts working 'behind the scenes' and soon wiggles its way to the front position.

Not everyone succumbs.
Others never meet anyone that is better than their spouse.

By better, I mean triggers the right brain chemistry.

Or some people may have very strongly ingrained morals, such that they can 'tune out' reality.

But the default is to make babies with any member of the other sex that your back brain deems acceptable.

Every religion in history knows this. Every other culture knows this. Only the modern progressive culture denies it, pretends the facts are different, because, well, just because.

Oh, the other major truth that totally escapes modern society is the simple law of supply and demand. 
A concept totally beyond today's society.

Under supply and demand, if you double the number of workers in the work place, you reduce the VALUE of each worker, thus pay is decreased.
Business 101.

Or why it takes two people to make the money that ONE person made in 1950.

When woman entered the work place in huge numbers, it decreased the net value of every other person in the work place.
Not a theory, a simple fact of numbers.


Thus people have to work longer and get less money, but heck, now your wife can work. 
So between you, you get about 10-20% more than they would have paid ONE person in a labor scarcity marketplace like existed throughout history. 

Oh, and it doubled the costs of working, thus equaling every working family being poorer now, despite having two incomes. The net is lower than it was with one.
It pretty much ended automation, as people are now cheaper than machines.
It creates the permanent entry level pay scales predominant today. There are always plenty of people needing jobs...

Oh, and my grandmother entered the work place in 1910, one of the rare woman workers. She worked in a shop with hundreds of other woman, and the men were kept away. 

She worked there 56 years, and never had an affair.

My mother entered the workplace in 1951. She worked co-ed jobs at three places.
And had affairs with her supervisors at three places…
Cliché.

Why are there more affairs? Men and women are mixed. That's about it.
Not rocket science.

Oh, and I was in the work force for 30 years. Saw this recreated in over a hundred work locations.
I watched people do the mating dance everywhere.

Next time you are in any work place, watch the workers socialize behind the counter or in the aisles. 

The mating dance never ends.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Great post but I reject the notion that we are slaves to our biology and our impulses. We as a species can transcend much of what lower species cannot.

I can seriously want to choke the hell out of a co-worker, yet I can stop myself from acting on that impulse.

I can want very badly to eat that piece of cake, or lift that glass of bourbon to my lips, but I have a choice to stop.

I can want my neighbor's car, too, but I am not bound by my brain chemistry to steal it.

We sell ourselves short by shrugging our shoulders and just attributing it to the fact that we have sex organs.


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

...the 'scientific method' of explaining cheating is all fine & good if that's what you want to use as the explanation.


....I'll stick to mine, which is that it's due to a complete lack of respect for your partner, as well as profound selfishness and a total disregard for the pain that will be inflicted upon said partner and or other family members.


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## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

Honestly, I figured with how so many of you had been through this and for so long, that you'd have this question figured out, which is why I asked it here in the first place. The level of debate and divisiveness about it tells me that it is a question that will never be answered one way or another and will remain one of life's mysteries.

I doubt another thread will reveal the answer either but it has been interesting glimpling into the minds and hearts of those who experienced this.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Daisy10 said:


> Honestly, I figured with how so many of you had been through this and for so long, that you'd have this question figured out, which is why I asked it here in the first place. The level of debate and divisiveness about it tells me that it is a question that will never be answered one way or another and will remain one of life's mysteries.


It's about the character of the person, frankly. As different as our fingerprints, I'd imagine.

I think the one thing that would help a lot is for a couple to very clearly decide what is infidelity and what is not, long before "one thing led to another", for someone.


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## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

InlandTXMM said:


> It's about the character of the person, frankly. As different as our fingerprints, I'd imagine.
> 
> I think the one thing that would help a lot is for a couple to very clearly decide what is infidelity and what is not, long before "one thing led to another", for someone.


Agree. If I ever remarry that discussion will happen.


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

Daisy10 said:


> Agree. If I ever remarry that discussion will happen.





InlandTXMM said:


> It's about the character of the person, frankly. As different as our fingerprints, I'd imagine.
> 
> I think the one thing that would help a lot is for a couple to very *clearly decide what is infidelity and what is not,* long before "one thing led to another", for someone.


....I think if there is the 'need' to discuss what's considered infidelity ...then a bigger problem exists. ....of course ....just my opinion.


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## Lister (Jan 29, 2013)

PappyJack said:


> Re; the constant 'why cheaters cheat'
> That question could only be asked in a modern, messed up society.
> Any other in history would consider it a rhetorical question.
> 
> ...


Interesting post and I agree you cannot overstate the role of biology in all human behaviour. Interestingly I used this sort of argument to myself when having the affair, another way of removing responsibility for what I knew was selfish and wrong.

When having an affair you find any way you can to try and 'justify' what you are doing and behaviour embedded through millions of years of evolution is as good as any other justification you can come up with (not understood by spouse, soul mates, what she doesn't know won't harm her etc etc).

Unfortunately it doesn't cut the mustard, human beings have developed the ability to overcome basic instincts. Up until fairly recently for example ,it was normal practice for men to marry and have sex with young girls, the English aristocracy regularly married 13/14 year olds who then provided them with children. Now society has deemed this unacceptable (in most parts of the World), protects children from sexual abuse and criminalises this paedophile behaviour. It doesn't stop many men still finding young girls sexually attractive but it does stop them acting upon their base instincts because they are able to rationalise that it is wrong. 

The same should be true of having an affair, if you know it is wrong you should be able to overcome your desire and find ways to remain faithful. I wish I had.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....I think if there is the 'need' to discuss what's considered infidelity ...then a bigger problem exists. ....of course ....just my opinion.


By that I mean whether strip clubs are infidelity, whether opposite sex friends are over the line, etc.


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## PappyJack (Nov 1, 2013)

Hurtin_Still said:


> ...the 'scientific method' of explaining cheating is all fine & good if that's what you want to use as the explanation.
> 
> 
> ....I'll stick to mine, which is that it's due to a complete lack of respect for your partner, as well as profound selfishness and a total disregard for the pain that will be inflicted upon said partner and or other family members.


Do you believe in science?
Or mathematics?
Did history start with you? Most people think so in our society.

Not trying to be rude, but yeah, all those things are real.

Read some history. Actual books. Read some religious books, start with the bible, the Koran, works of Buddha. 
Or read about Rome. Not the pap on the internet. Actual books.

Do some math. 
Real math, don't use a calculator, learn what the numbers mean.

Well, probably nobody will, opinions weigh exactly the same as facts.

I first read of that concept, that opinions would be weighed as much as facts, in a book written in 1947, as an example of how to tell if a society was on the decline. 
It was decades before I realized we had hit that point.
Oh well, it's all about feelings I guess.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

InlandTXMM said:


> Great post but I reject the notion that we are slaves to our biology and our impulses. We as a species can transcend much of what lower species cannot.
> 
> I can seriously want to choke the hell out of a co-worker, yet I can stop myself from acting on that impulse.
> 
> ...


Agreed. This whole "biology" and that we're at the mercy of it and all it takes for anyone to cheat is the right circumstances - I don't buy it.

We as humans have free will. It's as simple as that. The way to avoid cheating and destroying your family? Big reveal coming: make the choice not to cheat.

I'm not special or better than anyone else. I simply made the decision not to cheat - because it's wrong and it causes hurt, pain and destruction. 

There's no magical spell (ahem "fog") or anything that puts people in a trance and makes them do bad things. It's free will...cheating is a choice, a decision made by the cheater. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no "perfect storm" that suddenly turns good, moral people into cheating scumbags. It comes down to personal choice - values, morals, the ability not to put everyone last and yourself first. That's within each person - some people choose to cheat: cheaters. Others choose not to: the faithful.

FREE WILL.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

PappyJack said:


> Do you believe in science?
> Or mathematics?
> Did history start with you? Most people think so in our society.
> 
> ...


By that logic, math and science don't apply to faithful spouses?


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

I think for some people the biology excuse is easier than dealing with the reality that their loved one is a flawed human being.

OP said his mom cheated 3 times, so it must be that she was around penises at work, for example. I'm not buying it.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Hurtin_Still said:


> ...the 'scientific method' of explaining cheating is all fine & good if that's what you want to use as the explanation.
> 
> 
> ....I'll stick to mine, which is that it's due to a complete lack of respect for your partner, as well as profound selfishness and a total disregard for the pain that will be inflicted upon said partner and or other family members.


When they do it they either figure they will not get caught, they also don't take into consideration that the OP could get all up in to your BS life and cause damage or steal.


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

PappyJack said:


> Do you believe in science?
> Or mathematics?
> Did history start with you? Most people think so in our society.
> 
> ...



....yes to the science

....yes to the mathematics

....and no ...'history' didn't start with me ...I'm not THAT farking old

....however ...neither science or math has any place / part in a "committed romantic relationship". I don't want to sound all corny, or like I'm living in a land of pixie dust, rainbows, unicorns and cherubic cupids floating around. But ...I think the feelings of love, romance, attraction, devotion, commitment that bring two persons together ....almost defy having a textbook explanation or ability to be quantified by numbers or science. And, just as the "flowery" aspects of a relationship somewhat defy quantification, so does the complete destruction of a person's soul, sense of self, confidence, and pain that they experience after being betrayed. To this day ...I have yet to see written anywhere ...something that can thoroughly pinpoint what the pain of betrayal feels like ...similar to what on may read in a medical textbook related to physical signs of a heart attack...etc.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Interesting post, but imo shaky logic. People often make the mistake of evaluating the "good ole days" by looking at a ridiculously small chunk of history in the early part of the 20th century. You really think people didn't find ways to have affairs before that? It is true that when you mix men and women you will have affairs to some degree, but evolutionary biologists and genetists believe that historically up to 30% of babies born in wedlock were not the husband's. How to explain that? So really you don't know that your grandmother never had one, you only know that she didn't break up her family. This idea that affairs are solely due to women working and mixing with men is ridiculous; in fact I would argue that as women gain equality you'll see fewer affairs. In times past the only power women really had was their sexuality, so they used it. You think women really enjoy being prostitutes? I know a couple of older women that slept their way up the proverbial ladder precisely because their opportunities were so limited. One of them had to work because hubby left her. I've been working and mixing with men for 20+ years now and have never had an affair. There is ample opportunity for me to make it on my own merits so why would I mess things up by being the office wh0re? And men have always had affairs, they just looked for prostitutes and/or girlfriends and it was socially acceptable as long as they didn't leave their families. Sometimes I think a chunk of men are upset this is no longer the case. I think this issue is more complicated then the original post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NothingWantsToChange (Nov 8, 2013)

InlandTXMM said:


> I think for some people the biology excuse is easier than dealing with the reality that their loved one is a flawed human being.
> 
> OP said his mom cheated 3 times, so it must be that she was around penises at work, for example. I'm not buying it.


Anyone who thinks their loves ones or themselves aren't in some way flawed are wrong. We all can make bad decisions...not everyone cheats but everyone makes destructive decisions every now and then and believe it or not there are things out there that people do that are far worse then cheating.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

NothingWantsToChange said:


> and believe it or not there are things out there that people do that are far worse then cheating.


And? That could be said of anything, really. Not sure what the point is....


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## Rev. Clonn (Nov 11, 2013)

To expand the theory above, there has to be weaknesses in your relationship, your intellect or your morals, perhaps all three before cheating can happen.

my points are

You can control your impulses, well you can if you are intelligent, moral and happy(fulfilled). Research tells us that those who are the smartest can better control the drives that mother nature throws at us. We as people often make two malformed assumptions regarding this. 
One being if I can do it everybody can, that's just not true we are each unique with strengths and weaknesses as such we can do things others cannot even begin to do and we also will fail at things others find easy. 
The second being that others are as smart as us, not time in school but just basic intelligence, we all know really dumb people and really smart people but most of us fall in the middle and we have no real way of knowing where in that range others fall, unless they show us we automatically think they are as smart as us. This leads us to assume we are average and others can do what we can will think like we think and react as we do.
Also the chemical effects on human actions.
If someone was arrested for committing a crime and we later found out that they had been drugged without their knowledge or consent should they be held and punished for the crime? 
Are the chemicals released by our own systems any less debilitating to our thinking than external drugs? 
Most cheaters are on three mental and limbic pathways. First they are happy to be noticed and appreciated. We have all been there, the cute person who flirts with us, the friend who notices we lost weight got a hair cut or new clothes. this makes us feel good and is the gateway drug of our limbic system. If a person is or even see themselves as being undervalued or ignored this is a ***** in their armor. 
Second is the "high" the dopamine rush of "being in love" real or false it changes the way we think and derails out train of thought. This is often referred to as being as strong a cocaine, and just as addictive too. Think of teens in love for the first time and all the sappy stupid things the think say and do, the rest is history, mine and yours if you look back on it. We often wonder what drives teen suicide as a society, this is a big part of it. 
Third is the keeping of secrets, in abused people we often see the abuser being defended by the person they abused, the psychological reasons vary according to the type of abuse, cheating spouses get the added high of hiding, sneaking and participating in being in the in group, while they are experiencing natural gender roles, some for the first time in their lives. The just feel right when they can take charge of someone else, or they feel relived at being able to surrender to the right person. It is described as coming home, a religious experience, it is chemicals in our systems designed to pair bond us so children can be born and raised. Nothing more, nothing less but it is powerful, as powerful as mother nature can make it.

Finally is the decline of morality in our western liberal democracy society. When we see everyday on TV and on the internet that people are famous for being loose, Available to any takers and trashed out of our mind we start to see this as normal. Films that show older women taking sex tourist vacations being seen as empowering. Sl ut walks that teach that dressing like a prostitute for hire and trying to convince all of us its ok to do so. 
Girls nights out, acting single, Married guys at strip clubs, separate vacations all things that existed in the past but we had different names for them names that would be called shaming and hate speech today. 
The society we have was formed by Intelligent, Moral, and Reasoning men. They were apt to think and talk over problems before taking action, they would send letters to each other that could take weeks or months to arrive, before acting on things that were not an emergency. 
I would predict that anyone who looks at the history and our current culture without prejudice, can see what we have gained and what we have lost. 
I also would strongly say the people of today may know a lot of facts the men who founded our societies did not and could not know, but todays people could not find theses things out on their own. We stand on the shoulders of giants in out knowledge, but we are apt to dumb ourselves down watching reality TV and unlikely SITCOMS, that shape us to believe what our betters think we should so we can progress the same way Rome did before us. 
This situation results in us being intellectually weaker, and thus unable to reason when effected by the drugs our bodies subject us to, we also are bombarded with the day in and day out message we deserve to live like decadent royalty just because we draw breath. 
Cheating like obesity, and other lifestyle maladies are just a symptom of the decline or progress of our society. Always remember that Mother Nature is unsympathetic and will find a way for life to continue and babies to be born. 

OK long rant just my two cents worth, your mileage may vary.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

well according to my wife, she cheated because "she wanted to"...
Yes folks, that is why...she also added this jem "I had an itch and I scratched it"...alrighty...


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

missthelove2013 said:


> well according to my wife, she cheated because "she wanted to"...
> Yes folks, that is why...she also added this jem "I had an itch and I scratched it"...alrighty...



That's honest of her.


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## NothingWantsToChange (Nov 8, 2013)

Healer said:


> And? That could be said of anything, really. Not sure what the point is....


That people seem to think the fact that they don't think they could ever cheat makes them some morally superior being. Cheating is certainly a part of a persons character but it is not the persons whole character. 

It's similar to those who look down at others for any other shortcoming they may have. Trust me everyone has their shortcomings.


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## PappyJack (Nov 1, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Interesting post, but imo shaky logic. People often make the mistake of evaluating the "good ole days" by looking at a ridiculously small chunk of history in the early part of the 20th century. You really think people didn't find ways to have affairs before that? It is true that when you mix men and women you will have affairs to some degree, but evolutionary biologists and genetists believe that historically up to 30% of babies born in wedlock were not the husband's. How to explain that? So really you don't know that your grandmother never had one, you only know that she didn't break up her family. This idea that affairs are solely due to women working and mixing with men is ridiculous; in fact I would argue that as women gain equality you'll see fewer affairs. In times past the only power women really had was their sexuality, so they used it. You think women really enjoy being prostitutes? I know a couple of older women that slept their way up the proverbial ladder precisely because their opportunities were so limited. One of them had to work because hubby left her. I've been working and mixing with men for 20+ years now and have never had an affair. There is ample opportunity for me to make it on my own merits so why would I mess things up by being the office wh0re? And men have always had affairs, they just looked for prostitutes and/or girlfriends and it was socially acceptable as long as they didn't leave their families. Sometimes I think a chunk of men are upset this is no longer the case. I think this issue is more complicated then the original post.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Missed my point. Of course men and woman had affairs etc.
The question was why do people cheat.

The interesting thing is, why do people NOT CHEAT.

It's math.
If 1000 men are mixed with 1000 woman, a large number will find a 'true love' or 'soul mate'.
Um, take the same 1000 men and 1000 woman and mix them with a DIFFERENT set of 1000 of each. 
And a large number will find a soul mate or true love.

The more men and woman you mix together the more the odds go up.

There will always be people who cheat, always people who won't, but it's like Russian roulette. Play it enough times, you 'win'.

There were affairs and cheating in the old days, but the percentages were almost nothing compared to today.
Any society that mixes men and woman, gets affairs.
The numbers increase the more you mix.
This isn't rocket surgery.

There will always be people who resist. 
Great. But bring enough nubile young interested members of the opposite sex around and that number keeps getting smaller.


Anyone that disagrees with that premise is kidding themselves.


However, it does not mean ANYONE has to cheat, or that EVERYONE WILL cheat. 

But in arguments everyone always says 'if it's possible, it must happen'. 
So you get flame wars, etc.

So cheaters can be bad people, or good people in everything but that one area.

People are people, smart, feeling animals.

They can be trained to do the right thing. Or trained to do the wrong thing.

Society, religion and families do the training.

Without that training, people are not so good to be around. 
Think wolf boy.

Our society has chosen to teach people to cheat. Our religions (most the popular ones) have chosen to 'forgive' or ignore cheating.
Our families mostly have no idea how or what to do.

Don't read the wrong things into what I'm posting, folks.


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## sedona (Oct 10, 2013)

Cheaters cheat because they are liars and controllers. 

Cheating is lying. The sex aspect makes it that much more difficult to confront, but it's mostly about LYING and CONTROL. 

Anybody is free to indiscriminately mate like monkeys if they choose. So why don't they? Since we all carry this biological impulse to mate when the mood strikes, then surely it's not hard to find other people to have sex with _under those terms_? 

Cheaters choose to pretend (lie) they want monogamy,, but deny their partner the same thing. They do this because they want to control their partner from making choices that do not suit them. 

There is little other reason to lie other than to control the BS. To control whether or not the BS then also has sex with others, or seeks out emotional intimacy with others, or stays or leaves.

But if sex as a mating thing is so natural, then why would the WS even care about this? Watch how the quickest way to get a cheating spouses attention is for the BS to start showing interest in someone else or have a revenge affair. WS will throw that "humans are just wired to breed" stuff out the window if the shoe is on the other foot.

We hear these things: the WS is "broken" and it's not about the BS (why the need to lie, go be broken) . WS is afraid of the BS and therefore lies. (if a BS is that dangerous then anybody with common sense would surely not do the one thing that would send even a normal person into an epic rage). Money or losing half their junk?(Hope the AP knows they ain't worth as much as the sofa and the tv.) Kids? (Bull, I never buy this one). Because they are selfish/entitled? Fine, go be selfish and entitled. It all goes back to lying. Opportunity? Ok, so a cheater takes the opportunity. Fine go tell your spouse so THEY can take THEIR next opportunity. 

I think cake eating is control. 

I have heard everything but "I could have been honest about my cheating impulses, but I didn't. I lied in order to control you from making choices that did not suit me". 

I'm as primal sexual as it gets. But I don't have the urge to take it from every guy that I get a whiff of standing in line at 7-11. I think most people dont' find it that difficult. It irks me when it's assumed that someone cheating is just soooo much more sexually driven than the rest of us. I'm living proof that's it more than easy to be highly sexed and blissfully monogamous at the same time. And I don't think I'm unique. 


There is also the danger aspect of it too. Expose, take away the mystery/danger is often enough to kill it. But why the need for danger/mystery if being driven by reproduction? Are WS somehow using the BS like they are a saber tooth tiger about to pounce and interrupt some primal mating under the volcano? It makes no sense. 

I get what Pappy is saying. It's just my opinion that cheating is more about being a liar and a controller than about being a primal sexual being.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

NothingWantsToChange said:


> That people seem to think the fact that they don't think they could ever cheat makes them some morally superior being. Cheating is certainly a part of a persons character but it is not the persons whole character.
> 
> It's similar to those who look down at others for any other shortcoming they may have. Trust me everyone has their shortcomings.


"Thinking" you could never cheat doesn't make one a morally superior being. _Actually not cheating_ does, though. 

And decimating your spouse, children and family unit is hardly a "shortcoming". Nor is it an "accident" or a "mistake". It's cold, cruel, calculated deceit.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Wow, it's like we are devolving, that we are all hanging onto the threads of morality. Or it could be evolution. I dunno.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

NothingWantsToChange said:


> Anyone who thinks their loves ones or themselves aren't in some way flawed are wrong. We all can make bad decisions...not everyone cheats but everyone makes destructive decisions every now and then and believe it or not there are things out there that people do that are far worse then cheating.


No one said anything of the sort. Of course there are.

What I'm saying is, you can't blame biology for poor judgment or lack of boundaries. We are not simple mammals.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Horizon said:


> Wow, it's like we are devolving, that we are all hanging onto the threads of morality. Or it could be evolution. I dunno.


Cheating isn't new, and it isn't any less or any more despicable now than it was 100 years ago.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

missthelove2013 said:


> well according to my wife, she cheated because "she wanted to"...
> Yes folks, that is why...she also added this jem "I had an itch and I scratched it"...alrighty...


I hope she is now scratching your itch and you hers


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

NothingWantsToChange said:


> That people seem to think the fact that they don't think they could ever cheat makes them some morally superior being. Cheating is certainly a part of a persons character but it is not the persons whole character.
> 
> It's similar to those who look down at others for any other shortcoming they may have. Trust me everyone has their shortcomings.


GROAN. Do we have an unrepentant, rationalizing WS here? Are we getting your confession story soon? And how you were justified to step out on your spouse because X, Y, and Z?

ETA: Spoke too soon. Yes, you are a serial cheater, is that right?


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## sedona (Oct 10, 2013)

okay, the assumption seems to be that we are all biologically driven to WANT to cheat, it's just that some of us have some evolved mechanism that keeps us from it. 

I'm saying that's not true. Many of us are not stomping down urges to cheat-- cause we don't have them. We don't want to cheat. We aren't morally superior, we aren't robots, we aren't with partners who are sexual gods or goddesses and keeping us so ravished we can't, we don't have low libidos. The urge to cheat is just not there. We can feel attraction and all that, but the urge to actually cheat if not for consequences? No, I don't think everyone is wired like that. 

I think monogamy is hot. And I think so on a primal level. So what about us? Are we biological mutants? Are we abnormal? Are we from some different ancestor than primal man? Because that's what the argument implies.


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## NothingWantsToChange (Nov 8, 2013)

InlandTXMM said:


> GROAN. Do we have an unrepentant, rationalizing WS here? Are we getting your confession story soon? And how you were justified to step out on your spouse because X, Y, and Z?
> 
> ETA: Spoke too soon. Yes, you are a serial cheater, is that right?



Have I cheated? Depends on your definition...I feel as if I did and it went on for some time. My s/o oddly enough does not consider my actions cheating and through some therapy I was able to change my behavior. Am I remorseful? Of course...did I ever rationalize my actions? Nope!

I would encourage you not to make a snap judgment about me or anyone else through a few posts on a message board. If anything I hope by the variety of responses here people would realize not all cheaters are evil/selfish/mean/stupid. They are all one thing and that's human.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

NothingWantsToChange said:


> Have I cheated? Depends on your definition...I feel as if I did and it went on for some time. My s/o oddly enough does not consider my actions cheating and through some therapy I was able to change my behavior. Am I remorseful? Of course...did I ever rationalize my actions? Nope!
> 
> I would encourage you not to make a snap judgment about me or anyone else through a few posts on a message board. If anything I hope by the variety of responses here people would realize not all cheaters are evil/selfish/mean/stupid. They are all one thing and that's human.


So we have to figure out the definition of "is", is that right?

And all cheating is selfish in nature. Whether it's cheating on a test or cheating on your wife. It is an act of extremely poor, selfish character in wanting something you did not earn and cannot have.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

sedona said:


> okay, the assumption seems to be that we are all biologically driven to WANT to cheat, it's just that some of us have some evolved mechanism that keeps us from it.
> 
> I'm saying that's not true. Many of us are not stomping down urges to cheat-- cause we don't have them. We don't want to cheat. We aren't morally superior, we aren't robots, we aren't with partners who are sexual gods or goddesses and keeping us so ravished we can't, we don't have low libidos. The urge to cheat is just not there. We can feel attraction and all that, but the urge to actually cheat if not for consequences? No, I don't think everyone is wired like that.
> 
> I think monogamy is hot. And I think so on a primal level. So what about us? Are we biological mutants? Are we abnormal? Are we from some different ancestor than primal man? Because that's what the argument implies.


It's really, really simple. The arsonist sets the house ablaze, then looks at the burn victims and says "well, if you had the match in your hand, you would have lit it on fire too".

It makes them feel better about themselves and their despicable actions.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Some try to rationalize the behavior of a cheater by saying that they are simply acting on engrained desires and that biology is at the root of it. I understand that but also think that in reality, biology is not the driver. Having been someone who came so close to cheating, I know that it was more emotional than physical. If it was purely physical, then the hand and I could just have a session but the emotional stuff is what drives one to do more than just think about it.


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## NothingWantsToChange (Nov 8, 2013)

InlandTXMM said:


> So we have to figure out the definition of "is", is that right?
> 
> And all cheating is selfish in nature. Whether it's cheating on a test or cheating on your wife. It is an act of extremely poor, selfish character in wanting something you did not earn and cannot have.


All people act selfishly at times but we are all more then isolated actions. Are all cheaters selfish? Sure, but are all selfish people cheaters? No. 

I am not attacking anyone. I am simply saying that trying to paint a complex issue with a broad stroke like "it's simple they are just selfish" helps no one understand. As someone who made mistakes I am trying to answer the question but the only answer I can give is that every case is different and every case is complex. Everyone is not a guilt free sociopath. It's many factors that even the cheater won't fully grasp.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Good post! Free will is part our lives. But let us be honest, just because we desire a certain outcome to some aspect of the human condition that touches us, does not mean it mean we can succeed. 

Insurance companies exist and profit on the difference between our will to live as we wish and the reality. The actuaries know the odds better than the customer.

It is certain that insurance companies, when they are allowed to, include marital status as factor in there calculations. They can calculate how cheating, and we know that cheating causes some significant percentage of divorces, affect life expectancy. 

In other words the actuaries do not believe everyone can remain true. Free will cannot be sprinkled on to humanity. The enormous cadre of divorce attorneys and MC's do not believe in free will. If it were so simple, the beauty of the monogamous contract would not fail with such consistent regularity.

There are effectively no criminal or civil penalties for infidelity because it cannot be stopped by civil or religious vows.

OP notes that the work place is full of mating games. The situation is worse in modern corporate life. Companies that already have more than 40 hours a week because many still think about work after work and even they should be interacting with spouses. 

Those same companies know that to motivate team spirit they must engage employees in social exercises, often with alcohol, so that the team will be loyal to each other to accomplish corporate objectives, such as devotion to brand, sales targets, etc.

Whenever people are subject to brainwashing it necessarily challenges their marriages. White collar workers are subject annual reviews. Some companies mandate dismissal of employees ranked at the bottom too many times in a row.

Is it any wonder that people under pressure do not fornicate with colleagues because they sympathize with each other. The SAHS is outside of this world and ill equipped to respond to their spouses' needs.

At one giant corporation I worked at, my manager over and over hired beautiful women to work for him. All of these women were competent, but still everyone joked about it. Isn't having 7 or 8 long legged smart dressing yummy mummies as the core of you team a form of EA? (His wife was ugly)

All of these women were contract workers. The last I heard they were all laid off in down sizing. I am sure that some affairs are not love but extortion. A manager can choose to protect a certain number of colleagues. He or she may quite naturally use the implicit offer of security in in exchange for sex.

Free will would have us resist extortion. But you go rock climbing with your colleagues and look at them in tight shorts and the eat dinner and drink, hasn't the company set up the conditions for x percentage of workplace affairs?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

I saw someone I know on there. She is on my FB friends list. Or at least she WAS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Thound said:


> I saw someone I know on there. She is on my FB friends list. Or at least she WAS.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


On where?


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## moon7 (May 5, 2013)

I couldn't agree more with your first post PappyJack. I'm young (24) but saw it happen a lot already. And there are plenty of statistics out there to back you up.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

I liked the OP, though I am not sure if I agree with it completely.

I agree partially with the biological part. We were all animals initially and we got programmed to procreate and it was the survival of the fittest. But evolution is a continuous process. With evolution, we not only progressed technologically but also spiritually. A section of human population got more spiritually and emotionally matured and learned to get control over the baser instincts. That's why there are many people who never cheat. They have surpassed the evolutionary urges of their ancestors, and their evolutionary objectives are different now. Then there is another set of people whose parents cheated, grandparents cheated, they themselves cheated, their children cheated, and their grandchildren will cheat as well. Of course there are a lot of people in between the two extremes.

I don't agree at all with the economics part of the OP. You are saying that introduction of women in the workforce has to lower the wages. In this case, you are saying that only supply of labor increased while demand for labor stayed the same. But that is hardly the case. The demand for labor has also increased substantially over the last century. In fact, it is a well known fact in labor economics that while college enrollment increased in the USA during the last fifty years, the wages also increased at the same time. It wouldn't have been possible without a rise in the demand for labor. Also, you are assuming that productivity of labor stayed the same. But there has been an obvious rise in productivity and that would raise the wage. 

I believe what you were trying to say is that there has been a widening gap in income between different groups of people, or a rise in inequality. But, higher female participation in the labor force is not the reason behind that. The widening income gap comes from a broadening skill gap. The skills that pay more are getting harder to get into and the signals for acquired skills are getting pricier. Female labor participation has nothing to do with that.


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## moon7 (May 5, 2013)

Oh, and about the decline of society Nelson Rodrigues said _"The world has only become possible because before our laws, our morals, our conduct were governed by the best men. Now we have the impression that there are the bastards who are making our life, our customs, our ideas. Or are the bastards or are the imbeciles, and I can not say which is worse. Because you know that there are millions of imbeciles for ten formidable men."_
You can't convince them with facts, because the 'bastards' has molded this entire generation mind the way it is. It isn't even their fault, and unless they seek real erudition or were specially born with a sharp critical sense (unlikely), what you said will sound so out of reality.
State the obvious already became a revolutionary act.
:toast:


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I was thinking about posting to this thread, but OP clearly knows everything so I have nothing to add. Economics, history, science and math. What a scholar.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

PappyJack said:


> Missed my point. Of course men and woman had affairs etc.
> The question was why do people cheat.
> 
> The interesting thing is, why do people NOT CHEAT.
> ...


OK, but I'm not sure that people cheat a whole lot more then they used to, though I might concede that it's more socially acceptable. Cheating used to be acceptable for men as long as they didn't leave the family, but for women the consequences were much worse so they had to be discreet. Also it's much easier to catch these days with email/cell phones/etc. And before DNA you had no idea if your kids were yours, at least the poor men. How often are men on this site advised to test the kids? It's only recently that this option has become available. I stand by my argument that you don't really know if your grandma cheated or not, you only know that she didn't break up the family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

InlandTXMM said:


> Great post but I reject the notion that we are slaves to our biology and our impulses. We as a species can transcend much of what lower species cannot.
> 
> I can seriously want to choke the hell out of a co-worker, yet I can stop myself from acting on that impulse.
> 
> ...



I agree with you, but I think why someone cheats is always going to be somewhat different for each family.. 

You know I have seen other people in poorer conditions and living in sh1t holes that have had more faith and respect for each other then my Ex wife had for me. 

Why ? I have no clue.. 

But I think something my ex-wife didn't like set her off.. Yea it might have been nonsense to many others wives.. I beat if she would have spoken to someone else in worse shoes, she would have probably gotten the speech *"Your husband is on the computer ? That is what your complaining about ?.. At least you don't have to drag yours out of a bar every other day.. You should be happy and stop complaining. It could be worse"*

I think also part of it is hormonal as well. 

Or it could be just a chain of events that lined up in such a way that just causes a break down that normally does not occur.

But lets not fool ourselves we both played a part in this break up.. For some its 90% WS 10% BS, others its 50% for both WS and BS. Then add in the rest how you see fit for your relationship.

For me I've come to learn, I think because I have a pretty good therapist that I have issues stemming back from when my father left my mother.. Events and things I seen first hand at the age of 12.. Things I understood very well then and understood even better as I got older.. 

I know my ex-wife had issues and disliked her mother for some reason. Why I had no clue.. I seen her mother as a very stern person, but at least you knew where you stood with her.. No beating around the bush with her at least..

My ex growing up wasn't the easiest to deal with I can tell. Nothing super crazy, but a High School drop out who got her GED and eventually went to College while we were dating and getting ready to be married.. Got her associates in Dental Hygiene.. 

But even now though my therapist doesn't look to talk much about my ex since she is not their and he can't get any info out of her beyond what I tell him. We do discuss her and like me he is sure the reason she cheats is deep rooted into the issues with mom.. One theory he had is she is a masochist in a sense.. She needs to fight to validate her love.. So when things got complacent she needed turmoil and strife to validate her love.. Again more complex then this but I can't go into all the details here and just making a point..

The point is your ex cheated for reasons A and my cheated for reason B and C... 

I wish there was some sort of way I could fix my 19 year relationship with my Ex.. For the sake of my kids and myself and her.. I know it hurts my kids.. Its rough on everyone.. 

But I know there just isn't any guarantee that anyone can give me or us that this can be fixed.. So reality sets in and I know I humanly cannot bare to go through what she did again.. Not the affair and not the abuse she put me through in the end.. If anything the abuse at the end was worse then the affair. That showed a side of my Ex I NEVER seen and never expected.. 

But trust me when a mother decides not to speak to her child for 6 months, there is a definitely something wrong with her.. Something more then I don't love you anymore.. Something snapped in her.. 

Again it didn't make her crazy or irrational. She knew what she was doing and she had choices to make... She decided on the wrong choices.. I honestly think one day we will find out she made choices because she was forced to prove her love to this Other man.. She felt trapped financially and needed him to "escape".. 

Again it doesn't excuse her.. But sometimes the stars line up in such a way that smaller things now become big things.. 

I remember talking to a drug addict I arrested and I asked him how did this all start.. He simply said my girlfriend gave me some Heroin at a party.. I almost sh1t my pants literally and then we had sex.. It was the best sex ever.. I was hooked since that first day..

Sometimes sh1t snowballs out of control. Sometimes one person just can't handle it.. Sometimes two people can't handle it..

Maybe if the family of my Ex tried to really help out that maybe she would have not been so pressured to make these choices..

How bad did it turn out for my ex wife ? Well today my 2 boys live with me and my 80 year old mom helps me out as does my older brother as well. I am fortunate that they literally live in the basement apartment in our house.. 

I am pretty sure my Ex didn't expect my oldest to not want to go with her and I am pretty sure she was very hurt when I had to explain to her our youngest didn't want to live with her but just wanted to see her 2 days a week. 

Financially she is broke.. I pay her child support for the moment until finalized and then I am stopping the payments *(I just don't want to stop the wheels on the divorce or I would redo the paperwork)*.. 

But ATM she needs my check to help pay the rent for her and her boy friend.. Yes this Other man doesn't even make enough income to pay the rent. 

I can only imagine what is going to happen when I am done..
She is getting 55k from me. I can either see her leaving this man and going out on her own or moving to a smaller apartment with this guy.. Another theory is he will convince her to move to a sunny state where he can work year round.. He does construction and many can imagine the winters kill that sort of work.. The funny thing is she didn't want to leave when I asked her to move so I would love to see what she will do. Its almost like waiting for the cliff hanger of a movie.. Who is gonna die ? Who is gonna live ?..

Hindsight being 20/20 if she could see what happen to her today I don't think she would have made the choices she did.. 

I think this is a prime example of how an affair can back fire on you..

I have never seen nothing but love for our kids from her.. So I can only imagine what she is going through now.. 

From reading all the stories here I can tell you I know mine is somewhat unique.. Not many Wayward wives just abandon their kids.. I know a few do though, but we are in the minority.. 

Again its different for everyone.. Your never going to get a real straight answer.. Especially if the Betrayed spouse is never willing to admit their role in the divorce.. It took me sometime to understand and admit where I failed.. It wasn't earth shattering and we definitely could have worked as a team together to fix our issues.. But it just wasn't meant to be.. 

You learn, fix yourself for your next mate.. Don't repeat the cycle..


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Handle,

Why not find some more neutral third party to help your son rebuild his relationship with your ex. It is going to haunt him into adult life, as you well know.

You cannot predict what she is going to do with OM, but what would be best for your sons? To have her drop off the face of the earth?


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