# Do all opposite sex friendships become physical sooner or later?



## Goldmember357

Seems to me this is the case. I can point to a number of cases in which someone left the other person for a friend or cheated on a spouse with a friend. I can think to my own life and the problem opposite sex friends played before. In addition my own research on the psychology behind opposite sex friendships and seeing the issue they can play on individuals on this forum.

I am not against opposite sex friends UNLESS you are married. In a marriage keeping in constant contact with an opposite sex friend who is really close only will lead to trouble (imo).

It seems to me keeping any friend you may have had a past relationship with or you and that friend had past feeling but never acted on it. Is something that is very risky in the case of marriage. In the case of dating i am not so against them given the fact that dating is essentially a process of elimination.

Eventually curiosity will get the best of both of you and you will act on your feelings. 



Anyone else agree?


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## 45188

Mostly, unless the opposite sex friend looks like a troll or is gay. But I mean.. I'm a girl. I can be close close opposite friends with a guy and never develop any sexual feelings for him - ever. That's why guys complain so much about the "Friend Zone" it exists.. and it's nearly impossible to get out of. Like a black hole. 

It's different for men.. Men don't have female friends, period.


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## EleGirl

No they do not.

Women often make friends with guys that they see as a brother. 

Men generally only put time into a frienship with a female if he wants sex with her. The desire is usually there from his perspective.

But these relationships are problematic because they can cross the line. Not wroth the risk when in a relationship with someone.


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## WyshIknew

Well I have opposite sex friends, but I think the difference is (to me) that they are mutual friends with my wife.

And I am rarely if ever alone with them for any length of time, there is no need too.


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## 827Aug

I've had a male friend for nearly 35 years; he's like a brother to me. *It has never been physical*. We have even travelled out of state together. I'm also friends with his wife and her family. And when I was very ill a few years ago, all of my family became friends with them too. No problems at all.


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## Kronk

I have an opposite sex friend that I spend a bit of time with. We have been friends for around 10 years. Never have we once had any inappropriate relations. If I treated my partner with anything but the upmost respect, she would kick my ar*e for me. My partner thinks the world of her also, as do my children, my partners children and the rest of my friends.
She is one person I know I can count on always.


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## Goldmember357

kipani said:


> Mostly, unless the opposite sex friend looks like a troll or is gay. But I mean.. I'm a girl. I can be close close opposite friends with a guy and never develop any sexual feelings for him - ever. That's why guys complain so much about the "Friend Zone" it exists.. and it's nearly impossible to get out of. Like a black hole.
> 
> It's different for men.. Men don't have female friends, period.


I do not think "Friend zone" exists. I think that is something men just tell themselves to make the female look cruel for not returning similar feelings.

I believe all you need in order for a relationship to ensue is a spark that can range from physical to emotional connection/attraction.

Generally speaking men and women do not maintain a very good strong relationship with 1 individual of the opposite sex unless they are physically and mentally attracted to them.

Studies have been done to the death on this.

There is a belief that "women are better at not mixing friendship and sex" and that women can be friends with men but men cannot be friends with women.

I do not believe this to be true overly true in regards to that "special" one opposite sex friend who has hung around for years. I believe women are just as likely to desire their friend but are less likely to go for him or bring up their feelings. I feel women are just as likely to engage in an affair with a close friend they have had for years and i feel women are just as likely to be pushed by curiosity.



827Aug said:


> I've had a male friend for nearly 35 years; he's like a brother to me. *It has never been physical*. We have even travelled out of state together. I'm also friends with his wife and her family. And when I was very ill a few years ago, all of my family became friends with them too. No problems at all.


This is a rare instance

I've read that relationships formed in the sandbox day's can avoid this issue. However i have overwhelmingly heard and read that males and females who make and maintain a special opposite sex friend usually are attracted to one another and will partake in a physical and emotional relationship at some point.


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## 45188

Goldmember357 said:


> I do not think "Friend zone" exists. I think that is something men just tell themselves to make the female look cruel for not returning similar feelings.
> 
> I believe all you need in order for a relationship to ensue is a spark that can range from physical to emotional connection/attraction.
> 
> Generally speaking men and women do not maintain a very good strong relationship with 1 individual of the opposite sex unless they are physically and mentally attracted to them.
> 
> Studies have been done to the death on this.
> 
> There is a belief that "women are better at not mixing friendship and sex" and that women can be friends with men but men cannot be friends with women.
> 
> I do not believe this to be true overly true in regards to that "special" one opposite sex friend who has hung around for years. I believe women are just as likely to desire their friend but are less likely to go for him or bring up their feelings. I feel women are just as likely to engage in an affair with a close friend they have had for years and i feel women are just as likely to be pushed by curiosity.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a rare instance
> 
> I've read that relationships formed in the sandbox day's can avoid this issue. However i have overwhelmingly heard and read that males and females who make and maintain a special opposite sex friend usually are attracted to one another and will partake in a physical and emotional relationship at some point.




Oh goldmember, I'm a female. Friends Zone most definitely exists. Absolutely most definitely. It's almost as bad as the "Sibling zone" actually.. most friend zoned guys turn into sibling zone guys if they can't get out of the friend zone. I swear, I have been close friends with men for over a decade without any physical or emotional attraction. I was completely dumbfounded when THEY told ME they had feelings for me. I had to tell them they were more like brothers to me.. About good lord.. 15 of them lol.. But I myself? Felt nothing. If I am attracted to somebody I know very very early into talking to them, but that's just me.

Nowadays, I have no male friends.. and he has no female friends.

I do believe women can be friends with men.. But men can't be friends with women. We are the pursued.. You the pursuers. Biologically.


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## Goldmember357

WyshIknew said:


> Well I have opposite sex friends, but I think the difference is (to me) that they are mutual friends with my wife.
> 
> And I am rarely if ever alone with them for any length of time, there is no need too.


What about a friend in which you and them are always alone when you hang out?

And to make it more interesting let me give 3 scenario's

1) friend that you once had a relationship with, this relationship can range from short to long term to never developing past few dates, kissing and talking about your feelings... You and this friend move past this stage and agree to be friends


2) friend that has admitted they have had feelings for you and you admitted you had feelings for them. Yet no relationship ever developed for possibly a number of reasons. Eventually you two move beyond these feelings and decide on just friendship

3) you and this friend have never openly admitted feelings for one another. In addition you never had a relationship of any sort and you continue to be friends for years.


General consensus seems to be that the first two friends will eventually lead to a relationship occurring due to curiosity getting the best of both individuals. But what about the 3rd case?

are they exempt from curiosity due to the fact that they have never agreed on their desire for one another?


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## dogman

The problem is that most people think this is possible until all of a sudden...oops! It's not anymore.

The truth is that I feel this is kind of like someone waiting for you to trip so he can be there to catch your wife. 

Is it possible...yes. Is it worth the risk ...I don't think so. 

By the way I mean that either way, no alone time for my wife and an opposite sex friend or for me and an opposite sex friend. Just a precaution.


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## Goldmember357

id agree


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## SimplyAmorous

All of our friends are mutual friends with us...We have one guy friend...been friends over 20 yrs, he talks to me more than my husband ...just cause I am more of an engager in conversation pretty much...we have alot in common.... but we only get together when my husband is there ~ right beside me. As it should be. 

I have 0 physical attraction for him. There have been occasions where I was alone with him (roofers on our roof, tree cutters in our yard -while he was at work -special occasions)... my husband had no qualms with this. He has good character...and he respects my husband.

I do feel physically attracted close friends -getting off alone is a world of temptation though...could easily mess with your head ...and if trouble springs at home....mess with your heart in a whirlwind.


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## Goldmember357

kipani said:


> Oh goldmember, I'm a female. Friends Zone most definitely exists. Absolutely most definitely. It's almost as bad as the "Sibling zone" actually.. most friend zoned guys turn into sibling zone guys if they can't get out of the friend zone. I swear, I have been close friends with men for over a decade without any physical or emotional attraction. I was completely dumbfounded when THEY told ME they had feelings for me. I had to tell them they were more like brothers to me.. About good lord.. 15 of them lol.. But I myself? Felt nothing. If I am attracted to somebody I know very very early into talking to them, but that's just me.
> 
> Nowadays, I have no male friends.. and he has no female friends.
> 
> I do believe women can be friends with men.. But men can't be friends with women. We are the pursued.. You the pursuers. Biologically.


What i mean by friend zone not existing. Is i feel that all you need is a spark or "attraction" and you will eventually have a relationship between the two individuals.

I do not believe that any of those guys who "liked" you ever had a chance with you. If they did than you would of accepted their request for a relationship or at some point you would of developed feelings for them. 

"friend zone" is often used by males to describe a place in which a female places them in the "just friend zone" they often refer to this place as a place they could of avoided had they behaved differently or acted sooner.I do not believe that to be the case. If its a manner of acting or behaving differently than you will eventually have the chance to be with that person. In other words i do not believe that you placed anyone in a zone, i believe you simply rejected them and they will never be anything more than a friend. 

Friend zone is usually described as a place by guys that they can "possibly" escape if they act different. I do not believe this so be true, i think there are individuals we are attracted to and can be in a relationship with and individuals we are not attracted to who we reject.



Do you see what i mean?


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## ScaredandUnsure

I have male friends that I've been friends with since I was 15. I've never been attracted to them sexually, and to be honest, I wouldn't be physical with them unless they were like the last men on earth and the human race was dying out, and needed to procreate.

I adore them, they (and their spouses) have stuck by me in the best/ worst of times (my divorce, death of my grandfather, birth of my children). We don't hang out alone, it's only in group settings, especially since they're all either married or engaged. We get together a few times a year.

Could feelings evolve? Sure, but not on my end, I just am not physically attracted to any of them, and I don't think they're attracted to me. When I was 16 years old and single, we'd drink and get drunk, and the only physical touch involved was helping me get to the designated vomiting place, and make sure I didn't fall in. Other than that, maybe getting picked up and thrown off the dock into the lake, that's about it.


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## The Middleman

Only if the female "friend" is open to getting physical. The male friend is always willing to get physical. But it is possible in any male/female friendship.


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## dogman

Women usually think this is possible.


Most of the men on here feel that this kind of friendship is questionable, because we know how men can be, we don't trust other men.

Women are naive when it coms to men's intentions. JMO


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## Goldmember357

SimplyAmorous said:


> All of our friends are mutual friends with us...We have one guy friend...been friends over 20 yrs, he talks to me more than my husband ...just cause I am more of an engager in conversation pretty much...we have alot in common.... but we only get together when my husband is there ~ right beside me. As it should be.
> 
> I have 0 physical attraction for him. There have been occasions where I was alone with him (roofers on our roof, tree cutters in our yard -while he was at work -special occasions)... my husband had no qualms with this. He has good character...and he respects my husband.
> 
> I do feel physically attracted close friends -getting off alone is a world of temptation though...could easily mess with your head ...and if trouble springs at home....mess with your heart in a whirlwind.


What if you were faced with these 3 scenario's

1) friend you had past relationship with of some sort. You and them both obviously had feelings for each other.

2) friend you had feelings for and they had feelings for you, both of you admitted this, it never turned into a relationship and you two just remained friends. You were attracted to them first

3) friend you and them are unaware of each other's feelings towards each other. But you are physically attracted to him and he is that "special" friend who you only hang out with alone.


^^ in all the above cases you two are close friends for years and usually hang out alone (even when you were dating other people).

Could something then develop you feel?


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## BjornFree

That would depend on the reasons you started the friendship(male's perspective of course). I think if a guy got to know a girl who he was attracted to but didn't have the balls to declare his intentions up front but instead chose to go through with the whole charade of "lets be friends" knowing full well that he'd jump her bones the moment she gave the go ahead. So it all depends on the underlying intentions.

Believe it or not there are some women, colleagues and my wife's friends who I don't feel attracted to at all and talking to them is pleasant, if a little dull. There are other women, again, some of the younger women in my firm who are extremely attractive but I don't really wish to know them well or even compliment them because I know that I'm going to open a whole new can of worms if I proceed in that direction. Believe me, if you think you're starting to feel attraction to someone who you thought of as just a friend before, stay far away if you're not in a position to escalate it.


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## Love Song

kipani said:


> Mostly, unless the opposite sex friend looks like a troll or is gay. But I mean.. I'm a girl. I can be close close opposite friends with a guy and never develop any sexual feelings for him - ever. That's why guys complain so much about the "Friend Zone" it exists.. and it's nearly impossible to get out of. Like a black hole.
> 
> It's different for men.. Men don't have female friends, period.


Yes they do. Depends on the guy. I have several close long lasting friendships with males.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrsOldNews

One of my very best friends is a male. I've known him about 14 years now. Never did anything inappropriate with him. Even my stbxh didn't take issue with him. And we do hang out alone, discuss things as friends would and have a great time together. We have many shared interests and opinions and see each other 2x a week usually (he helps me in my workshop often). I've never made a pass at him and he is well aware that I've never been attracted to him in that way. He is like a brother to me. I have 3 other close male friends and two if them I've been close with since elementary school. My other best friend in the world is female. She also has male friends two of hers are mine too.

Do you know why my stbxh and my female friends husband didn't an don't care? Because they trusted us they respected our friendships and our ability to make good life decisions.

To date I've only had one significant other have problems with my male friends. He was projecting his insecurities on me. I dropped him like hot potato lol.

I understand some people are so jaded that they believe male/female friendships always end up in cheating. Or the less popular belief that men don't even like having female friends but act like it on hopes of getting some at some point.

All I know is my male friends have been around for years and I've never been in any situation remotely sexual with any of them. They are like family and will always remain that way. And before you say I must be a real troll for my male friends to not try to hit that. I'm no Charlieze Theron but I get plenty of attention from the opposite sex.

My friends respect me and my relationships and vise versa. Anyone who couldn't understand or accept that just isn't for me.


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## SimplyAmorous

MrsOldNews said:


> My friends respect me and my relationships and vise versa. Anyone who couldn't understand or accept that just isn't for me.


I really believe it has A LOT to do with the type of friends you choose in life too...what circles you run in. 

There is a lot of talk about nice guys on this forum and ALPHA males (I still tend to associate this with Players in many respects - the Alphas usually have had many previous sex partners & know how to PLAY)...

I really think all of my friends husbands / our Guy friends are the genuine NICE GUY types.... we're never hung with drinkers, partiers, Player types who has a new women every few months.. but more christian type circles. 

Our friends are generally pretty open communicatively also...husbands & wives both... we think nothing of talking about politics, religion, relationships, marriage/sex, & rock & roll (nobody does drugs)...Morally...they are similar to us...and respect marital boundaries...

I would think this in itself (the character of such friends) keeps a lot of trouble at bay.


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## 3Xnocharm

Goldmember357 said:


> Seems to me this is the case. I can point to a number of cases in which someone left the other person for a friend or cheated on a spouse with a friend. I can think to my own life and the problem opposite sex friends played before. In addition my own research on the psychology behind opposite sex friendships and seeing the issue they can play on individuals on this forum.
> 
> I am not against opposite sex friends UNLESS you are married. In a marriage keeping in constant contact with an opposite sex friend who is really close only will lead to trouble (imo).
> 
> It seems to me keeping any friend you may have had a past relationship with or you and that friend had past feeling but never acted on it. Is something that is very risky in the case of marriage. In the case of dating i am not so against them given the fact that dating is essentially a process of elimination.
> 
> Eventually curiosity will get the best of both of you and you will act on your feelings.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone else agree?


My answer to the posted question is a resounding NO. I have had many friendships with guys over my lifetime that have never gone to the physical side. I have always related better to guys than to other females...always been more of a tomboy, one of the guys. Its just who I am. If you have a "friend" that you are attracted to or who you know is attracted to you, then you should not have an active friendship if either of you is in a committed relationship. Seems pretty simple to me.


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## meson

3Xnocharm said:


> My answer to the posted question is a resounding NO. I have had many friendships with guys over my lifetime that have never gone to the physical side. I have always related better to guys than to other females...always been more of a tomboy, one of the guys.


:iagree:

It is a mistake to think that all OSFs become physical. Some do of course but not all and probably not even most. 

It is quite possible that OSF may develop feelings for one another. But that doesn't translate into they will act on those feelings to turn the relationship physical. 

The way to help ensure that they don't is to have a good set of boundaries with your friends that you and your spouse agree on.


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## Maneo

yes it is possible to have friends of the other gender. I'm male and have female friends. Not all men are Neanderthals who will whip it out if given the slightest opportunity. There are an infinite number of scenarios where something might/could happen and there are men who use the "that's the way men are made" excuse for promiscuity but that is just a convenient crutch. And there are women who flair into jealously if their man just says hi in a friendly way to another woman but that is fed by the woman's insecurity. The myth that every man-woman relationship has a sexual undercurrent is just that - myth, fed by outdated pop Freudian psychology.


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## ARF

I am in a bit of a unique situation. I am a SAHD. There aren't really too many of those where I live, so chances are I am doing a lot of activities with Moms. 

My wife and I have another couple who we have become good friends with. The wife and I and our kids spend a lot of time together. My wife is trusting and her husband is trusting of this relationship. She has turned out to become a very good friend of mine. We have a lot in common and she is an attractive person.

I don't find myself pining for her or fantisizing about her. however, I certainly look forward to getting together with her so I can have a friend to hang with while also allowing our children to play together.

Knowing appropriate bounderies is important. I don't let her in on intimate details of my relationship. I don't complain about my wife to her. We just have a comfortable relationship with trusting partners, and I am fortunate to have that.


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## that_girl

Nope. Not all. I have had a male friend for 7 years and there is no attraction there physically. We create and work on our projects together and that's it. But...we're also spiritually in tune and it's not like we met and there were sparks. no.

But that's just me. And that's just him. I do not have opposite sex friends besides him. I don't want the drama and I want to honor my husband....even though he says he wouldn't care. There is no need for me to have male friends, besides the one I have.


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## meson

ARF said:


> Knowing appropriate bounderies is important. I don't let her in on intimate details of my relationship. I don't complain about my wife to her. We just have a comfortable relationship with trusting partners, and I am fortunate to have that.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

This!


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## that_girl

I dunno though. My friend and I talk about our relationship. He just got out of a crazy one after four years. He was the first person I called when my husband left...and he talked me down and got me started on working on myself. He also kept reminding me of the big picture and to not nag/whine/cry to H. He probably saved my whole marriage in that first moment when I called him....and got me started on working on me.

I'm not saying this is normal...but it can happen.


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## 45188

The gist I get here is whether friendships become physical.. is almost entirely up to the lady. And I fully believe that. Hell.. I've tested it.


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## meson

that_girl said:


> I dunno though. My friend and I talk about our relationship. He just got out of a crazy one after four years. He was the first person I called when my husband left...and he talked me down and got me started on working on myself. He also kept reminding me of the big picture and to not nag/whine/cry to H. He probably saved my whole marriage in that first moment when I called him....and got me started on working on me.
> 
> I'm not saying this is normal...but it can happen.


You have a real friend and that kind of disussion is positive and the goal was marriage building. 

Where it becomes a problem is when one spouse makes a habit of saying negative things about thier spouse as a matter of course. It opens the door to bonding of a friend against the husband which is destructive to a marriage. This sets the stage of someone else providing emotional support regularly for marital matters which increases the risk of an emotial affair.

Never is a strong term but confiding to an OSF about marital issues should not be a habit.


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## ATC529R

I hear from most if not all of the women I have known (and what some here have said) that yes, they can be friends without sex.

In my experience you ALWAYS have sex with the woman friend with very little exception.

so either there's a lot of lying going on or I was just gettin all the goods.


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## galian84

I don't believe that all OS friendships become physical. However, I do believe that all OSF should be friends of the marriage. I think that if they are not, then that is asking for trouble.

That said, I don't believe in *close* OSF...acquaintances or purely coworkers, sure, but that's the extent of it. 

I've noticed that a lot of my old male friends used to hit on me, while I never had any feelings for them in return. I always thought, there is nothing that a male friend can give me that my SO or my female friends can't. So why take the risk?

My SO says he wouldn't care if I had OSF, but I do not remain close to any old male friends out of respect for him.


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## VFW

Yes you can have friends of the opposite sex. But there needs to be boundaries and the relationship should include the other spouse to some extent and should exclude former lovers. Boundaries include no amorous conversations, it should be as if the others spouse was in the room, if you would not say that then, then don't say it at all. I don't disrespect my wife to my friends of either gender. 

I have female friends from my youth and in the military that I have know for decades. They all know and have met my wife and consider her a friend as well. Some of these women were with other husbands originally, but our friendships remain. I was never romantically involved with them, but have a brotherly relationship. My wife is my best friend (with benefits) and I cherish that relationship.


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## costa200

A... Female... Friend? What's that? 

Oh you mean those fugly broads i wouldn't touch unless heavily drunk or on drugs? Alright then, i actually thought you were talking about bangable women!


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## SimplyAmorous

ATC529R said:


> I hear from most if not all of the women I have known (and what some here have said) that yes, they can be friends without sex.
> 
> In my experience you ALWAYS have sex with the woman friend with very little exception.
> 
> so either there's a lot of lying going on or I was just gettin all the goods.


I would look upon what you describe here as a Casual Sex seeker & administrator and your women friends having a similar mindset -willing to oblige your need ....being able to separate Pleasure from lasting Love/Commitment. Hopefully these friends didn't have other partners at the time! 

I can not separate







from







....I would never have sex without the full package... I would be purely disgusted with myself ~ regrets blaring in my brain........I need far more than just friendship....I'd need 100% commitment from such a man, his intentions shown, lived, expressed/ Marriage on the horizon....Full vulnerability in the Romantic ...unless those things were met, my pants would not be unzipped....


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## ATC529R

are you kidding? the married ones were the best. no need for dates or fights.....just a romp and be on your way......

of course this was long ago and i was single. Today I have no female friends by choice.....but then again I don't go into an office and stuff...so I would have to go out of my way to even have a female friend. (of course I have the FB and my guy friends wives....but thats not like friends/friends imo.


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## NextTimeAround

If I continued to think that I had male friends, I would probably still be single...... as I recall on at least 2 occasions seeing guy pals **** blocking a guy while we're out as a group.

I'm going to continue to have a healthy scepticism towards OSFs whether with me or with my fiancé. My experience is that a lot of women like to do their professional networking in their social life use other women as conduits to their professional husbands..... once that connection's been made, then like the worker bee, the woman "friend" acts as if the wife is supposed to just die away while she has direct access to the husband whenever she wants.

I won't be letting that happen to me again. Maybe these situations are not romantic at all, but they are also not courteous either. You can be sure in this second time around any woman who thinks she has direct access to my husband (outside of work.... and my fiance works for a manufacturer as opposed to a law firm.... so it's not like he's constantly looking for new clients) is going to have direct access out of my (and his) life.


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## SimplyAmorous

ATC529R said:


> are you kidding? the married ones were the best. no need for dates or fights.....just a romp and be on your way......


 Very sad.  I wonder...How many marriages did you break up - or smooth sailing since the wife got away with it - you being her "milk man" during the day. 



> of course this was long ago and i was single. Today I have no female friends by choice.....



And this makes sense... doesn't it. Since you already know what happens when you get around women you are attracted too... if they give a sign, lift a leg, bat their eyes, think nothing of getting off alone, inviting you in....you will not TRUST your own restraint...finding the temptation something to give into ....like an alcoholic around some booze. 

I've noticed a pattern with many on this forum... those who've had a decent run of casual relationships such as these in their past appear to be even more likely to RAIL against men & women even talking socially to each other ready to pounce "Emotional affair" at the smallest instance of interaction...they speak out of their experiences I suppose ~ as we all do. 

But still it is wise of you...knowing how this has the potential to play out for you...that you personally stay away from the Creek bank. :smthumbup: 

*Anything * in our lives that has the power & magnetism to move us away from our spouse, causing us to start hiding / white lying it / secrets during the day - should be avoided at all costs.... it's a very slippery slope.....best to not put ourselves in that arena of temptation.


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## ladybird

In my case, No.. I had pretty much all male friends before I met my husband. They were only friends and nothing more.. No sexual attraction on my part for any of them...


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## curlysue321

In some aspects I agree with you. I had an old boyfriend I was friends with for many years. I used to complain to him about my relationship. I now realize this was wrong. My relationship would have failed anyway. I am now remarried, but I dumped the friend. It was difficult since i knew him since I was 14 and I am currently in my 40's. 

Now my hubby has a female friend he has known since high school. I am not at all jealous. This friend probably weighs well over 200 pounds and she is short. If she were hot I think i might be insecure. 

I think it really depends on if there is any physical attraction there. I still have one male friend. He is nearly 80 years old.


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## Thundarr

Goldmember357 said:


> Seems to me this is the case. I can point to a number of cases in which someone left the other person for a friend or cheated on a spouse with a friend. I can think to my own life and the problem opposite sex friends played before. In addition my own research on the psychology behind opposite sex friendships and seeing the issue they can play on individuals on this forum.
> 
> I am not against opposite sex friends UNLESS you are married. In a marriage keeping in constant contact with an opposite sex friend who is really close only will lead to trouble (imo).
> 
> It seems to me keeping any friend you may have had a past relationship with or you and that friend had past feeling but never acted on it. Is something that is very risky in the case of marriage. In the case of dating i am not so against them given the fact that dating is essentially a process of elimination.
> 
> Eventually curiosity will get the best of both of you and you will act on your feelings.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone else agree?


I agree OSF are playing with fire. Can it be harmless? sure. But to be safe there needs to be some basic ground rules in place that only bend for special circumstances.

I would have an issue with my wife going to dinner and a movie with an OSF regardless of the reason. On the other hand, my wife works with plenty of men and women and I guess she would consider the men friends. She does know that I would not be comfortable with her going to lunch with just the two of them and because she know's I think it's out of bounds, she wouldn't do it. 

I can have OSF though .... just kidding.


----------



## Thundarr

kipani said:


> Mostly, unless the opposite sex friend looks like a troll or is gay. But I mean.. I'm a girl. I can be close close opposite friends with a guy and never develop any sexual feelings for him - ever. That's why guys complain so much about the "Friend Zone" it exists.. and it's nearly impossible to get out of. Like a black hole.
> 
> It's different for men.. Men don't have female friends, period.


Those guys will hang around in the friend zone until you need a shoulder to cry on that's when it get's more dangerous.


----------



## that_girl

I would never make NEW male friends. Hells no. What's the point of that? No no. Wouldn't work for me and I'm sure H would wonder :wtf:

My girl friends are enough for me. H is mah man.


----------



## jaquen

Nope. I've never had a problem with maintaining clear, non-sexual boundaries with female friends.

The only female friends that I crossed the boundary with, or wanted to but didn't, were:

- Girls/Women who I wanted to be with, but was at the time too shy to go for, and was friend zoned

- My wife

I've had plenty of other female friends, some quite attractive, who I had no sexual interest in, and so nothing happened. A couple even had interest in me, but since there was never an in road presented, nothing ever manifested. I have never, in my entire life, had a problem being friends with women. I have never had the "screw anything that moves" mentality, so there were always clear distinctions between the females I had "those" feelings for, and the ones who were friends from day one.

Sometimes I feel like TAMers live on a different planet than I do. Most of my friends are relatively young, we live in a major metropolitan area, and I don't know one person in my life who doesn't have platonic, OSF.


----------



## Thundarr

dogman said:


> By the way I mean that either way, no alone time for my wife and an opposite sex friend or for me and an opposite sex friend. Just a precaution.


Every situation is unique but If I'm ok with a guy havng one on one time with my wife then he should take that as the ultimate insult.


----------



## Thundarr

kipani said:


> The gist I get here is whether friendships become physical.. is almost entirely up to the lady. And I fully believe that. Hell.. I've tested it.


That may be your experience but there's I think most women do not plan EAs. They were slowly sucked into an intimate connection that developed. Some women shocked when they realized that they have developed feeling for the OM.


----------



## jaquen

kipani said:


> The gist I get here is whether friendships become physical.. is almost entirely up to the lady. And I fully believe that. Hell.. I've tested it.


For the life of me I can't fathom where you got that gist when a few men in this thread have stated that they have female friends they are not sexually attracted to, and haven't ever crossed the line with.

Let me put it this way. I know a lot of men can't be friends with attractive women. In fact my wife had a couple male "friends" who I instinctually knew had feelings for her, even though she didn't believe me initially (and I was right). But "a lot" is not "all", especially in more urban, liberal spaces where male/female platonic friendships aren't rare. Sometimes I do wonder where some of you live.

Some men don't cheat. Period.

I didn't. Even in my 20's, with female friends, living several states away from my baby, surrounded by attractive female friends, during a long period of celibacy, and being what people called an attractive man...

Never once did I "slip" into a female friend, or even become remotely close to doing so. When my heart is taken, it's taken, and that's always been the case for me. Every single one of my female friends heard me gush about my woman. If any of them thought here was a possibility, and a couple did looking back, that was shut down from the get go.

You don't know all men. You only think you do.


----------



## Lyris

My husband has always had female friends. The only time I've ever been even a little concerned was during a bad time in our relationship. Turned out I had no reason at all to worry anyway. 

I think anyone who has this kind of view, that men and women can't be friends, are generally unsophisticated and black and white/all-or-nothing thinkers. 

I'm not saying close OSF never develop into anything more. But to say they always do, or mostly do, is ridiculous.


----------



## Thundarr

Lyris said:


> My husband has always had female friends. The only time I've ever been even a little concerned was during a bad time in our relationship. Turned out I had no reason at all to worry anyway.
> 
> I think anyone who has this kind of view, that men and women can't be friends, are generally unsophisticated and black and white/all-or-nothing thinkers.
> 
> I'm not saying close OSF never develop into anything more. But to say they always do, or mostly do, is ridiculous.


*Your post is an oxymoron.* You were concerned about it once *yet* people who are concerned about it are unsophisticated and black and white/all-or-nothing thinkers and *yet again* you're not saying close OSF never develop into anything more. That's not double talk.

Well at least I know what I think about it and I don't have to call you unsophisticated or ridiculous. Many people who think just like you do have been cheated on purely as a result of it.

I'm not sure exactly whick post in this thread your calling a black and white thought but I can show you more that were politely stating that there should be boundaries. Even the "yes you can have OSF" posts mostly said the same thing about boundaries and respect.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Thundarr said:


> Every situation is unique but If I'm ok with a guy havng one on one time with my wife then he should take that as the ultimate insult.


I have to agree with this if it means that normally this doesn't happen.

I'd also like to add that the wife may think it's an insult or that you just don't care. Although, it's more likely, in a "good" relationship, that she will think you trust her.

So many variables that come into play. You can never know for sure what is going through your partner's mind. You have to trust, but verify. I keep coming back to this in my mind. Also, what does he or she need with an opposite sex friend anyway? I'm talking about someone who spends time away from the relationship with her. I'm not sure I get it yet. Oh well.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> I know a lot of men can't be friends with attractive women. In fact my wife had a couple male "friends" who I instinctually knew had feelings for her, even though she didn't believe me initially (and I was right). But "a lot" is not "all", especially in more urban, liberal spaces where male/female platonic friendships aren't rare. Sometimes I do wonder where some of you live.


Obviously the men and women whose spouses cheated with OSF however were trusting blindly and maybe were not so good at recognizing the threats ( bet many thought they were though). It may work for you because you have a good jerkometer but there's no need to put that to the test so often if there are some boundaries for OSF. Again I'm talking about boundaries and they are unique to each couple.

I'm curious to hear you express more about what you mean with this statement. "Sometimes I do wonder where some of you live". I live in a house, in a population area where siblings don't marry, and not in a third world country if that helps.

Desenting opinions had not been condescending on this thread until yours or Lyris' last posts. Now everyone gets to throw jabs and dodge subject matter for a few pages.


----------



## manonfire

Females claiming they have these amazing 'brother' male friends.
Next time you see them. Assuming you're married, or in a committed relationship, pretend you want to have sex with them. Guarantee they will all fall for it. And there goes your so-called 'brother' friends.


----------



## 2ntnuf

"Never, Always, All, Nothing, etc." These absolutes are red flags to me. They are, in a sense lies. 

"I always throw my dirty socks in the hamper." Not when I was ill. Not when.... There are times when these are not true because we are all human and subject to human frailties.


----------



## Love Song

jaquen said:


> For the life of me I can't fathom where you got that gist when a few men in this thread have stated that they have female friends they are not sexually attracted to, and haven't ever crossed the line with.
> 
> Let me put it this way. I know a lot of men can't be friends with attractive women. In fact my wife had a couple male "friends" who I instinctually knew had feelings for her, even though she didn't believe me initially (and I was right). But "a lot" is not "all", especially in more urban, liberal spaces where male/female platonic friendships aren't rare. Sometimes I do wonder where some of you live.
> 
> Some men don't cheat. Period.
> 
> I didn't. Even in my 20's, with female friends, living several states away from my baby, surrounded by attractive female friends, during a long period of celibacy, and being what people called an attractive man...
> 
> Never once did I "slip" into a female friend, or even become remotely close to doing so. When my heart is taken, it's taken, and that's always been the case for me. Every single one of my female friends heard me gush about my woman. If any of them thought here was a possibility, and a couple did looking back, that was shut down from the get go.
> 
> You don't know all men. You only think you do.


I've been trying to explain this on TAM for a long time now. Thank you thank you thank you!!


----------



## lovelygirl

It's a matter of time and chances til the OSFs become something more. I dont believe there's an opposite sex friend for whom one hadn't had sexual thoughts. 
Personally, there have been a few OSFs with whom I wish I could get physical with but it was impossible for some reasons. 
As long as the thought is still there ...then it doesn't really matter if it actually becomes a reality.

I am single but I think it's best for married people to stay away from CLOSE friendships with OSF, especially when having sex with said friend has crossed their mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris

Thundarr said:


> *Your post is an oxymoron.* You were concerned about it once *yet* people who are concerned about it are unsophisticated and black and white/all-or-nothing thinkers and *yet again* you're not saying close OSF never develop into anything more. That's not double talk.
> 
> Well at least I know what I think about it and I don't have to call you unsophisticated or ridiculous. Many people who think just like you do have been cheated on purely as a result of it.
> 
> I'm not sure exactly whick post in this thread your calling a black and white thought but I can show you more that were politely stating that there should be boundaries. Even the "yes you can have OSF" posts mostly said the same thing about boundaries and respect.


I think you mean my post was contradictory, rather than an oxymoron. I'm also assuming you meant it *was* double talk.

I didn't say that I was right to be worried. I said I was worried, unnecessarily as it turned out. I would say I was being unsophisticated and falling into an untrusting, black-and-white type of thinking. So, no contradiction at all. 

Before I came to TAM I never heard of anyone having an issue with their spouse having friends of the opposite sex. I trust and respect my husband and I know I'm a really good wife who he'd be stupid to risk the loss of. But I'm not going to hem either of us in with arbitrary restrictions and if that means he chooses to cheat, that's on him and he's not worth my time.

We've been together 20+ years. Plenty of opposite sex friends, no cheating.


----------



## Anubis

Goldmember357 said:


> Seems to me this is the case. I can point to a number of cases in which someone left the other person for a friend or cheated on a spouse with a friend. I can think to my own life and the problem opposite sex friends played before. In addition my own research on the psychology behind opposite sex friendships and seeing the issue they can play on individuals on this forum.
> 
> I am not against opposite sex friends UNLESS you are married. In a marriage keeping in constant contact with an opposite sex friend who is really close only will lead to trouble (imo).
> 
> It seems to me keeping any friend you may have had a past relationship with or you and that friend had past feeling but never acted on it. Is something that is very risky in the case of marriage. In the case of dating i am not so against them given the fact that dating is essentially a process of elimination.
> 
> Eventually curiosity will get the best of both of you and you will act on your feelings.
> 
> Anyone else agree?


Nope. True for some people, but not true for all.

I have several female friends, but I also have very clear boundaries, and even clearer transparency with them and my fiance. 

In my life, I'm driven by who I wish to be. If I wanted to share my life most intimately with one of my lady friends, I wouldn't be with my fiance - I'd be with the one I really wanted instead. I've tried to structure my relationships such that if I broke down and tried to cheat with a friend, I'd simultaneously lose respect from them and my fiance and be left with nothing. 

It probably helps being of an age where I'm not ruled by my d**k, but always considering the long-term consequences. When I was 19, I defiantly was very stupid and did stupid things all the time. I still do stupid things, but usually not in the relationship realm, and thankfully less frequently.


----------



## tobio

My answer is no.

I have a very long-standing male friend, whom I have known for around fifteen years. There has not been anything between us ever. For most of the time we have known each other, we have been in long-term relationships/marriage, and have hung out as friends, mainly when we were younger to go and see gigs or alternative clubs with groups of friends or sometimes just us two.

All SOs were aware of our friendship and quite happy for us to go out together. An old boyfriend took quite a shine to him as they shared a very similar taste in music.

We are both married now. His wife is fantastic, and I would definitely call her a friend. Hubz has known him for years. They are friendly but not friends. Hubz is fine with us being friends. There has never ever been any sexual undertones. Of course I can't speak for him but he has never indicated anything of the sort and he is so happy he got married to his wife as he really thought he wouldn't meet anyone after his long-term relationship broke down.

I also have a handful of other male friends, who are mainly mutual friends of me and hubz, that I knew prior to getting together with him.


----------



## Stonewall

No. Its all about boundaries. I have never in 37 years broken that boundary and never will. Do I have the testosterone that would push me that way? Of course I do but would I even consider it for a moment? Not a chance!


----------



## dogman

ARF said:


> I am in a bit of a unique situation. I am a SAHD. There aren't really too many of those where I live, so chances are I am doing a lot of activities with Moms.
> 
> My wife and I have another couple who we have become good friends with. The wife and I and our kids spend a lot of time together. My wife is trusting and her husband is trusting of this relationship. She has turned out to become a very good friend of mine. We have a lot in common and she is an attractive person.
> 
> I don't find myself pining for her or fantisizing about her. however, I certainly look forward to getting together with her so I can have a friend to hang with while also allowing our children to play together.
> 
> Knowing appropriate bounderies is important. I don't let her in on intimate details of my relationship. I don't complain about my wife to her. We just have a comfortable relationship with trusting partners, and I am fortunate to have that.


For now. But... We've all read the stories on CWI that started the same way. Just sayin


----------



## dogman

Thundarr said:


> That may be your experience but there's I think most women do not plan EAs. They were slowly sucked into an intimate connection that developed. Some women shocked when they realized that they have developed feeling for the OM.


Exactly. 

It's all good until one day, maybe a few years down the road we hit a rough patch in our marriage and mr nice guy friend is there to look perfect, without all the baggage the marriage has gained over the years. Then...BAM...surprise feelings for the friend.

Not on my watch! ...Not again anyway.


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> Obviously the men and women whose spouses cheated with OSF however were trusting blindly and maybe were not so good at recognizing the threats ( bet many thought they were though). It may work for you because you have a good jerkometer but there's no need to put that to the test so often if there are some boundaries for OSF. Again I'm talking about boundaries and they are unique to each couple.


Blind trust is one of the hallmarks of our relationship. It always has been. We cherish it, and our freedom, immensely. The whole "trust, but verify" business would destroy our marriage, because it would turn it into something that neither of us recognizes as "marriage". If I cheat, or she cheats, recognizing that anything can happen, as unlikely as that seems to us, then the problem wouldn't have been an OSF. The problem would have been me, her, or us. I don't need a female friend to justify cheating on my wife. Women are everywhere, interested women, and the same goes for my wife. If we wanted to cheat, it would be easy to do so. No amount of OSF in the world are going to make us cheat, or prevent us from cheating. Many men do not have close female friends, yet many of those same men still cheat when they make the decision to do so.

So no, we won't be limiting access to OSF. We don't chose each others friends. That level of control, and strict boundary, might work for some, hell it might work for most, but it won't work for us. They day we start getting to that point will be the sad day where we have to do some serious discussion about possibly ending our marriage. I won't spend my life looking over her shoulder, and she won't do the same.



Thundarr said:


> I'm curious to hear you express more about what you mean with this statement. "Sometimes I do wonder where some of you live". I live in a house, in a population area where siblings don't marry, and not in a third world country if that helps.
> 
> Desenting opinions had not been condescending on this thread until yours or Lyris' last posts. Now everyone gets to throw jabs and dodge subject matter for a few pages.


Expressing curiosity about where someone literally lives, geographically, culturally, socially is hardly "condescending". 

I am genuinely curious what environments some of the people here live in simply because they are so incredibly out of tune with where I live. I have never, in my life, ran into a greater group of people who believe men and women can't be friends than I have here on TAM. It was eye opening, and very, very out of line with my real life.

That's a genuine sense of wonder, not an attempt to belittle or diminish.


----------



## Thundarr

Lyris said:


> I think you mean my post was contradictory, rather than an oxymoron. I'm also assuming you meant it *was* double talk.
> 
> I didn't say that I was right to be worried. I said I was worried, unnecessarily as it turned out. I would say I was being unsophisticated and falling into an untrusting, black-and-white type of thinking. So, no contradiction at all.
> 
> Before I came to TAM I never heard of anyone having an issue with their spouse having friends of the opposite sex. I trust and respect my husband and I know I'm a really good wife who he'd be stupid to risk the loss of. But I'm not going to hem either of us in with arbitrary restrictions and if that means he chooses to cheat, that's on him and he's not worth my time.
> 
> We've been together 20+ years. Plenty of opposite sex friends, no cheating.


Yes and yes. It was posted very late post so I'm glad the intent was not lost with word choices.

Husbands and wives have always monitored their spouses friends. Jaquen gave an example in his post. I'm sure he didn't demand that his wife do this or that but then I'm not saying that either. 

Generally people who've been cheated on as a result of OSF are hard core and zero tolerance. I don't think that's a good way to be. And people who are very secure in themselves and their relationship are often pro OSF. They feel like we are judging them or calling them naive ( true sometimes ) and take offense and then the accusations fly back and forth. Many OSF that ended up EA/PA, the BSs and WSs were naive and that's not easy to argue against. Sure their are some that have a good handle it.

I believe disrespect for human nature often proves to be the wrong place for the magority of the population. There's plenty of evidence to support risk in the case of OSFs and my marriage is something I don't like to add risk to if possible. 

Most of the anti OSF here are merely saying that they believe OSF should have some rules and guidelines so it's not risky to the marriage.


----------



## Thundarr

Anubis said:


> Nope. True for some people, but not true for all.
> 
> *I have several female friends, but I also have very clear boundaries, and even clearer transparency with them and my fiance. *
> 
> In my life, I'm driven by who I wish to be. If I wanted to share my life most intimately with one of my lady friends, I wouldn't be with my fiance - I'd be with the one I really wanted instead. I've tried to structure my relationships such that if I broke down and tried to cheat with a friend, I'd simultaneously lose respect from them and my fiance and be left with nothing.
> 
> It probably helps being of an age where I'm not ruled by my d**k, but always considering the long-term consequences. When I was 19, I defiantly was very stupid and did stupid things all the time. I still do stupid things, but usually not in the relationship realm, and thankfully less frequently.


That's what I'm saying makes it work as well.


----------



## jaquen

But there is a distinct difference in the two sides:

Pro-OSFers tend to discuss their own history, and marriage, and success with maintaining OSF. I have never seen a pro-OSFer declare that OSF never become inappropriate, or that all men, and all women, are ripe for having platonic OSF.

Anti-OSFer tend to lean toward making universal statements such as "men and women can't be just friends", "all men are waiting to screw their female OSF first chance they get", "no spouse who cares about their marriage should tolerate OSF". There is often very little acknowledgement that, regardless of their own tough history with OSF, everybody isn't exactly the same as they are.

No matter how many people step up and say I've successfully had OSF for 10, 20, 30, more, years, there is always the inescapable dire warning to not trust your spouse completely, or yourself.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> Blind trust is one of the hallmarks of our relationship. It always has been. We cherish it, and our freedom, immensely. The whole "trust, but verify" business would destroy our marriage, because it would turn it into something that neither of us recognizes as "marriage". If I cheat, or she cheats, recognizing that anything can happen, as unlikely as that seems to us, then the problem wouldn't have been an OSF. The problem would have been me, her, or us. I don't need a female friend to justify cheating on my wife. Women are everywhere, interested women, and the same goes for my wife. If we wanted to cheat, it would be easy to do so. No amount of OSF in the world are going to make us cheat, or prevent us from cheating. Many men do not have close female friends, yet many of those same men still cheat when they make the decision to do so.
> 
> So no, we won't be limiting access to OSF. We don't chose each others friends. That level of control, and strict boundary, might work for some, hell it might work for most, but it won't work for us. They day we start getting to that point will be the sad day where we have to do some serious discussion about possibly ending our marriage. I won't spend my life looking over her shoulder, and she won't do the same.


I've read enough of your post to believe this is true about you and I wish that it would work for everyone but I don't think it does. 

You mentioned in a prior post that you instinctively knew a couple of your wife's guy friends had interest in her and that proved true. I assume when it proved true that your wife backed away from their friendship some. When your spouse trust your opinion and does the right thing by it, it's easy to have blind trust.



jaquen said:


> Expressing curiosity about where someone literally lives, geographically, culturally, socially is hardly "condescending".
> 
> I am genuinely curious what environments some of the people here live in simply because they are so incredibly out of tune with where I live. I have never, in my life, ran into a greater group of people who believe men and women can't be friends than I have here on TAM. It was eye opening, and very, very out of line with my real life.
> 
> That's a genuine sense of wonder, not an attempt to belittle or diminish.


It sounded like "what rock do you live under" from this side of the comment so apologies if it was not intended that way.

It's actually a very good question. Many of us have a routine where I for example work five days per week 40 hours with men and women and my wife does the same. That's a lot of time away from each other to bond with friendds we work with and the vast magority of EA start at work for that very reason. All it takes is a marriage going through hardship and a listening ear to start the process. When lunch dates start occurring is often a sign that there's too much of an intimate connection in these cases. So I would have more concern if my wife had an OSF at work than I would if she had an old friend she sees once in a while. I dont't even think those are comparable actually.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> But there is a distinct difference in the two sides:
> 
> Pro-OSFers tend to discuss their own history, and marriage, and success with maintaining OSF. I have never seen a pro-OSFer declare that OSF never become inappropriate, or that all men, and all women, are ripe for having platonic OSF.
> 
> Anti-OSFer tend to lean toward making universal statements such as "men and won't can't be just friends", "all men are waiting to screw their female OSF first chance they get", "no spouse who cares about their marriage should tolerate OSF". There is often very little acknowledgement that, regardless of their own tough history with OSF, everybody isn't exactly the same as they are.
> 
> No matter how many people step up and say I've successfully had OSF for 10, 20, 30, more, years, there is always the inescapable dire warning to not trust your spouse completely, or yourself.


Agreed. I tend to work more with odds and probability and minimizing risk. There's no debating though that some people at TAM have OSF in a healty way. That's the piece of the equation that keeps me from throwing out words like never, impossible, etc.


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> You mentioned in a prior post that you instinctively knew a couple of your wife's guy friends had interest in her and that proved true. I assume when it proved true that your wife backed away from their friendship some. When your spouse trust your opinion and does the right thing by it, it's easy to have blind trust.


She wasn't my wife at the time, but yes. One was a fat, unattractive co-worker old enough to be her father, and the other was a priest-in-training. I'd never met them, but I just knew that both were interested. She didn't buy it, and I always told her to just wait, they'll reveal. And sure enough, they did. The priest-in-training was so freaking enamored with her that he was seriously going to give up the pursuit of the priesthood to be with her. Both men, because they only knew me in word, not presence, assumed that she'd been likewise developing mutual feelings for them. When she didn't respond with heated passion, and instead bewilderment, and a deep sense of betrayal, they were floored, and very shaken. 

It took the priest a few days to believe her when she said she'd never thought of him that way, and then he was so mortified, and ashamed, he slinked off. The other older co-worker still fancied they had a chance, and kept hope alive, until one day they were having a conversation and she mentioned that she'd told me, word for word, about his advances. He was flummoxed, and said "what? who tells their man everything?". She reminded him that she'd told him from day one that she tells me everything, and that every conversation they'd had, every advance he ever made, was known by me. He said he didn't really take "everything" literally; he'd basically still been believing that they had a "secret" relationship that would eventually leave them together (despite the fact that my wife found him physically repulsive). After that revelation he stopped his advances. 





Thundarr said:


> It sounded like "what rock do you live under" from this side of the comment so apologies if it was not intended that way.


Definitely not the intention at all. But I can see how how it could easily have been interpreted that way. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> Agreed. I tend to work more with odds and probability and minimizing risk. There's no debating though that some people at TAM have OSF in a healty way. That's the piece of the equation that keeps me from throwing out words like never, impossible, etc.


I think the key is knowing, and being honest, with yourself as best as you possibly can. You know when you have an attraction to someone, and you know when it's slipping into a danger zone. People like to say they didn't know, but we all do know, even if we chose to ignore the warning signs.

I'm not attracted to any of my closer female friends. Two I don't find physically attractive at all, and one I find very physically attractive, but have never felt tempted to cross the line with. As I am a professional actor, a lot of my female friends and acquaintances are very attractive women. But none of those women are really, personally close to me. In my line of work attractive women are just the norm, so you get use to it.

But I wouldn't go becoming friends with my first love. We burned hot, burned bright, and burned out quickly. I haven't seen her in over a decade. But if I ran into her, I know that it would be a terrible idea to even chance being friends, or having any kind if intimate relationship. 

So I take it on a case, by case basis. This ongoing debate/discussion on TAM has taught me that I do have different boundaries with my female friends, even if those boundaries happened naturally, and unintentionally.

I totally though acknowledge that others are being smart by hedging their bets, and putting boundaries down, if they've experienced issues in the past, or know themselves, or their spouse, well enough that infidelity is a real possibility. 

And ultimately, despite my complete comfort with having OSF, I have five people I classify as my "best friends", and all of them are men. The only true female "best friend" I have ever had in my life is the woman who eventually ended up being my wife.


----------



## Created2Write

Goldmember357 said:


> Seems to me this is the case. I can point to a number of cases in which someone left the other person for a friend or cheated on a spouse with a friend. I can think to my own life and the problem opposite sex friends played before. In addition my own research on the psychology behind opposite sex friendships and seeing the issue they can play on individuals on this forum.
> 
> I am not against opposite sex friends UNLESS you are married. In a marriage keeping in constant contact with an opposite sex friend who is really close only will lead to trouble (imo).
> 
> It seems to me keeping any friend you may have had a past relationship with or you and that friend had past feeling but never acted on it. Is something that is very risky in the case of marriage. In the case of dating i am not so against them given the fact that dating is essentially a process of elimination.
> 
> Eventually curiosity will get the best of both of you and you will act on your feelings.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone else agree?


Eehhh, I can't agree entirely. Just having a friend of the opposite sex does not mean that cheating, or something inappropriate, is inevitable. People _choose_ to take things to that level. It's not inevitable.


----------



## meson

jaquen said:


> But there is a distinct difference in the two sides:
> 
> Pro-OSFers tend to discuss their own history, and marriage, and success with maintaining OSF. I have never seen a pro-OSFer declare that OSF never become inappropriate, or that all men, and all women, are ripe for having platonic OSF.
> 
> Anti-OSFer tend to lean toward making universal statements such as "men and women can't be just friends", "all men are waiting to screw their female OSF first chance they get", "no spouse who cares about their marriage should tolerate OSF". There is often very little acknowledgement that, regardless of their own tough history with OSF, everybody isn't exactly the same as they are.
> 
> No matter how many people step up and say I've successfully had OSF for 10, 20, 30, more, years, there is always the inescapable dire warning to not trust your spouse completely, or yourself.


:iagree:

SimplyAmorous mentioned earlier in the thread that there is also a link to intent as inferred from past experience:



SimplyAmorous said:


> I've noticed a pattern with many on this forum... those who've had a decent run of casual relationships such as these in their past appear to be even more likely to RAIL against men & women even talking socially to each other ready to pounce "Emotional affair" at the smallest instance of interaction...they speak out of their experiences I suppose ~ as we all do.


Asking members of TAM about the appropriateness of OSFs is a bit like going to an AA meeting to discuss the health benefits of alcohol. There are some people that just can't handle it (them).


----------



## Created2Write

I'm still friends with an ex-boyfriend of mine. We don't talk very often, but we chat online once in a while. He's now married with a baby boy living in Hawaii. We had crazy strong feelings for each other, but he likes getting wasted all the time and rarely was sober when he called me. So, the relationship didn't work out. 

Sometimes a man and a woman can have feelings for each other, whether minimal or strong, and _get over them_. I think it's insulting to the male species to say that if any woman flirts and offers sex, that he won't refuse. I mean, seriously? Sure, maybe he might want to for a moment, but we all experience urges and wants in life. That does not mean we're inevitably going to act on them. 

Some men? I'm sure there are men who would have sex with their female friends, just like I'm sure there are women who choose to have sex with their male friends. That doesn't mean all men and women would do that.


----------



## Thundarr

Created2Write said:


> I'm still friends with an ex-boyfriend of mine. We don't talk very often, but we chat online once in a while.


This is an example of something I would find inappropriate for me or my wife. I'm friendly with my ex wife because we are raising our children in a unified front but I would feel guilty if we were buddies.

I agree with many of the points made by everyone but an OSF/ex would be a problem for our marriage no doubt.


----------



## BeachGuy

I don't agree. I have a female friend through work I've known for 15 years and we are really good friends. But neither of us has ever crossed the line and as far as I know, never wanted to. We rarely hang out outside of work though. Someone once said to me they would've bet if I'd ever have an affair, it would be with this woman. I laughed...just not something I'd ever have considered. We're just friends.


----------



## jaquen

I have to say, this thread is refreshing, and very surprising. It's the first OSF thread I've ever read on TAM where the different points of view on the matter are pretty well represented. In my experience these threads have been mostly "NEVER HAVE OSF!!!!!!!!".


----------



## costa200

Lyris said:


> My husband has always had female friends. The only time I've ever been even a little concerned was during a bad time in our relationship. Turned out I had no reason at all to worry anyway.
> 
> I think anyone who has this kind of view, that men and women can't be friends, are generally *unsophisticated * and black and white/all-or-nothing thinkers.
> 
> I'm not saying close OSF never develop into anything more. But to say they always do, or mostly do, is ridiculous.


Oh my gawd, i think i've just been called a bad name. Maybe i'll have to put my chewing tobacco down and look that up on that big book with all them words written...

Once i get more culturized i'm sure i'll be able to make claims like this:



> We've been together 20+ years. Plenty of opposite sex friends, no cheating.


These good ol'fancy people can be certain they are not cheated on! Them city folk must have one of those talking boxes to spaek with the al'mighty!


----------



## that_girl

Oh no he di'int.


----------



## TrustInUs

I've only read the first page..... But I don't think so, I think OSF without bounderies can lead to more than friendship. If a spouse starts to put a friendship above the marriage regardless of how long you've known them, its a problem. 

Neither me or my H have them because there weren't any to carry over into the marriage. Sure we both have OS acquaintances or even folks we grew up with but weren't close enough to us that we talked all the time. But those few people are also very respectful of our marriage.

Now if he started hanging out with someone he met since we've been together, talking about that's his best friend, then I'd have a problem.


----------



## Coffee Amore

Lyris said:


> I think you mean my post was contradictory, rather than an oxymoron. I'm also assuming you meant it *was* double talk.
> 
> I didn't say that I was right to be worried. I said I was worried, unnecessarily as it turned out. I would say I was being unsophisticated and falling into an untrusting, black-and-white type of thinking. So, no contradiction at all.
> 
> Before I came to TAM I never heard of anyone having an issue with their spouse having friends of the opposite sex. I trust and respect my husband and I know I'm a really good wife who he'd be stupid to risk the loss of. But I'm not going to hem either of us in with arbitrary restrictions and if that means he chooses to cheat, that's on him and he's not worth my time.
> 
> We've been together 20+ years. Plenty of opposite sex friends, no cheating.


:iagree:

I've had and still continue to have OSF. My husband is aware of all these friendships. He doesn't have a problem with them. He is first in my life. I don't ever bad mouth him or talk about marital issues with any OSF. I've talked about this before on TAM. There's nothing in my communication with these OSF that I would be embarassed to let my husband read. 

I'm insulted when people think that simply because you have an OSF, you two can't control yourselves. It's like the Taliban in a way. The Taliban think that if a woman shows her ankle (*gasp* shocking!) or neck or whatever, men will be so tempted and so overcome with lust they'll ravish the woman. In much the same way, if you have an OSF well you HAVE to be in lust with them. Nothing else is possible because I will absolutely succumb to my baser instincts. Please give me some credit. I know what is appropriate and what is not. I have morals. I've read everything from Not Just Friends by Dr. Shirley Glass to other marriage self help books. I'm in a very happy relationship with my husband for over 20 years now.  I haven't ever been tempted to have an EA much less a PA. If anything, having OSF has allowed me to see what a gem I have in my husband. I don't get a dopamine hit from flattery. If anything, that makes me annoyed that they think an insincere compliment will work on me. I'm not attracted to bad boys. Never have been. I'm not into players and I think I'm pretty perceptive when it comes to people. I can spot people who are making a play for me.

We will all come into contact with members of the opposite sex on a day to day basis, and it's unrealistic to expect your husband or wife to completely avoid these normal interactions. In my line of work, it's expected that I have some working business lunches and network with opposite sex colleagues. Knowing the potential pitfalls of an OSF, my husband and I take precautions much the same way we know that drinking excessively can lead to problems. The first step is awareness of the possiblity that problems could arise. 

Honestly you can't build walls high enough to prevent someone from cheating if they wanted to. You can put GPS, keylogger, stop all OSF, etc, but unless you're chained to someone 24 hours 7 days a week, the person can find a way to cheat. My best friend's husband used to cheat on her during his lunch time and so-called doctor's visits during work hours. He always slept at home at night, never took any suspicious trips anywhere, and he didn't have any OSF either. She sure was fooled into thinking her marriage was safe.


----------



## costa200

Women continuously say they have "just friends" and men often deny it in the internet. Come on people, we can't all be right. 

What is happening is that women are friend zoning guys and they are waiting for something else. If you don't believe me just test it out. Make a no strings attached sexual overture to one of those "friends". 

If he refuses (most likely he won't) ask why. The reasons can be very specific.


----------



## jaquen

costa200 said:


> Women continuously say they have "just friends" and men often deny it in the internet. Come on people, we can't all be right.
> 
> What is happening is that women are friend zoning guys and they are waiting for something else. If you don't believe me just test it out. Make a no strings attached sexual overture to one of those "friends".
> 
> If he refuses (most likely he won't) ask why. The reasons can be very specific.


This is what I'm talking about when I say that I live in a different world, and I have trouble connecting with some of the things you people are talking about.

Almost all my friends are attractive, male and female. Many are actors, and models, fit, healthy, "hot" human beings. So these aren't the standard "friend zoned" dudes hanging around, hoping to talk to the "hot" woman, hoping she'll give him the time of day. They ALL have OSF. They ALL hang out one on one with OSF. And not just one, but quite a few. Many of them also have other very attractive significants, and spouses. 

It's so incredibly common here, and even in the lives of my friends who live elsewhere, that posts like yours really have me wondering how we could be living in the same country, and be experiencing such radically different lives. To the point where you seem to literally think this can't exist. But it does exist. I see it every day, and I have _hundreds _of friends and acquaintances. 

And come on, what kind of pathetic man is going to be "denying on the internet". For what reason?


----------



## that_girl

jaquen said:


> This is what I'm talking about when I say that I live in a different world, and I have trouble connecting with some of the things you people are talking about.
> 
> Almost all my friends are attractive, male and female. Many are actors, and models, fit, healthy, "hot" human beings. So these aren't the standard "friend zoned" dudes hanging around, hoping to talk to the "hot" woman, hoping she'll give him the time of day. They ALL have OSF. They ALL hang out one on one with OSF. And not just one, but quite a few. Many of them also have other very attractive significants, and spouses.
> 
> It's so incredibly common here, and even in the lives of my friends who live elsewhere, that posts like yours really have me wondering how we could be living in the same country, and be experiencing such radically different lives. To the point where you seem to literally think this can't exist. But it does exist. I see it every day, and I have _hundreds _of friends and acquaintances.
> 
> And come on, what kind of pathetic man is going to be "denying on the internet". For what reason?



Yea.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

meson said:


> SimplyAmorous mentioned earlier in the thread that there is also a link to intent as inferred from past experience:
> 
> Asking members of TAM about the appropriateness of OSFs is a bit like going to an AA meeting to discuss the health benefits of alcohol. There are some people that just can't handle it (them).


Me & mine think ALOT like Jaquen & wife ~ but we don't hang with the rich, famous &







...we're awfully mundane in comparison, we hang with more married couples with kids...and a few singles looking for love- after divorce. 

Speaking of the AA here... I've never been drunk either... Husband was once, he threw up in his car, I blew a gasket & that never happened again. 

We are the type that feels very strongly that







&







go hand in hand...it can't be separated...It's a sacred act. 

My husband & I have never sat down & talked about boundaries with friends in all of our years together ~which spans over 30+. It's just something that has always been written on our







's. 

Yeah this all sounds greatly MUSHY... but that's really how we are with each other. I'd never hurt him like that, and he'd never hurt me like that... we share all of our conversations with each other - if/when the other is not there to have listened in. The juicier the conversation, even the more so it would get shared, we talk about it all. Neither of us has ever JUMPED feeling the other has violated or crossed some barrier to hurt the other. Which has greatly built our trust over all these years. 

It all starts with a willing / giving Transparency with us. The root is at home. If you got this covered, no friend on this side of the planet is going to be able to penetrate such a Union....as it really does come down to your beliefs, how you live, how you feel about the one you cherish & adore... and integrity...at the end of the day.


----------



## costa200

> t's so incredibly common here, and even in the lives of my friends who live elsewhere, that posts like yours really have me wondering how we could be living in the same country,


Actually we are not. Note the location under my name. But i don't think this matters that much.


----------



## Cletus

I could spend a bunch of time trying to explain it, but Billy Crystal did a perfect job in "When Harry Met Sally".

When Harry Met Sally... - Wikiquote


----------



## Rags

I have female friends who are just that - and nothing more.

With one, I suspected she might possibly have been open to it being something more, so I was more careful with that one - and she was much more my friend than my wife's. (We've seen much less of each other this year - since she got together with a mutual friend's ex - after having a divorce, unrelated. I find him hard work.)
No physical attraction, from my side, but we did get on really well.


I have other female friends to whom I am attracted - I'm more careful not make sure boundries are carefully observed with them - it stays as friendship only.

So, you have to be careful, but I think it can be done.


----------



## lovelygirl

@ Jaquen - it's the same over where I live. Most spouses have OSF with whom they hang out regularly and they don't imagine their life without these people. My mom has plenty of OSF and to one of them she used to talk to regularly on the phone. Now, I didn't agree with this ongoing phone conversation but it's normal over her . 

I think every relationship/friendship you build with people depends on your lifestyle. 
If you're a journalist, entertainer, actor/singer....etc it's impossible to not have regular OSF. the job and circumstances it be a norm for you. 
Or if you're the person who has always had close OSF throughout your life then all your partner has to do is accept it or move on. Some people are just made to have OSF the entire time. It's like the type of girl who has always had more MALE friends than female ones. You just have to accept and get used to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mochamom

kipani said:


> Oh goldmember, I'm a female. Friends Zone most definitely exists. Absolutely most definitely. It's almost as bad as the "Sibling zone" actually.. most friend zoned guys turn into sibling zone guys if they can't get out of the friend zone. I swear, I have been close friends with men for over a decade without any physical or emotional attraction. I was completely dumbfounded when THEY told ME they had feelings for me. I had to tell them they were more like brothers to me.. About good lord.. 15 of them lol.. But I myself? Felt nothing. If I am attracted to somebody I know very very early into talking to them, but that's just me.
> 
> Nowadays, I have no male friends.. and he has no female friends.
> 
> I do believe women can be friends with men.. But men can't be friends with women. We are the pursued.. You the pursuers. Biologically.


I totally agree with you... women can be friends with men, but men always ruin the friendship by telling you they have feelings for you. Then I get weirded out and don't want to pursue even a friendship.


----------



## costa200

> men always ruin the friendship by telling you they have feelings for you.


Yeah... But that's often a lie too! We discovered it works better than "i want to have wild no strings attached steamy sex with you".


----------



## Entropy3000

It is not the sex between friends that kills marriages. Yes that does happen. Sometimes it is even discovered. 

It is the bonding and the redirected energy and initmacy to others instead of the spouse. Where that level of bonding becomes detrimental to the marriage may vary. Few people would even recognize it though. It manifests itself in other ways. Like the feeling of lost affection. The ILYBIANILWY. The growing apart and so on.

Quite often I see folks who claim to be sophisticated about having close OSFs. You look at many of their profiles and threads and can see the carnage. Divorced, separated, I want to leave my husband, I cannot get through to him, but oh yeah I refuse to give up my close freinds they are more important to me than my spouse. Duh!? Of course they are.

Still others tout how they are really living in an open marriage. Keep that in mind if your goal is monogamy when they talk how important OSFs are to them.

Dating other people with the boundary of no sex is what many folks are talking about. Being sophisticated.

All marriages have some level of openess. Some folks just draw the line as more open than others. Most of those declare no sex. Others declare sex but no emotional attachment.

It comes down to what your goal is for your marriage. For some having a monogamous marriage is not a high priority or is not their goal at all.


----------



## Entropy3000

costa200 said:


> Yeah... But that's often a lie too! We discovered it works better than "i want to have wild no strings attached steamy sex with you".


It is denial. Women want the emotional bond and THAT is what the real issue is. Many women like that emotional cake eating and I contend that is where the real damage occurs. many People continue to focus on PAs. Not very sophistacted of them is it? PAs are oten just a symptom or possible outcome of the root cause(s).

Is it the men who do the damage or is it the women who bond with those men?

How about ... both. It is the mating dance. This is how we fall in love. This IS the dating ritual.

You can also ask ten people who believe in OSFs what they mean by this and it runs the gamut. I believe in OSFs. Not close ones.


----------



## Maneo

mochamom said:


> I totally agree with you... women can be friends with men, but men always ruin the friendship by telling you they have feelings for you. Then I get weirded out and don't want to pursue even a friendship.


"Always" - "..men always ruin the friendship..." Every man in every instance? 

This discussion seems to be a litmus test of deeply held beliefs that seem to generalize based on gender for predictive behavior. Stereotypes appear to rule here.

Clearly for many this is a guilty until proven innocent area of behavior. Have we not matured beyond this proprietary mentality?

And by perpetuating this myth, then when confronted with a friendship with a person of the opposite gender outside of the marriage or exclusive relationship, people are left with no roadmap except to assume the predefined roles and interpret a friendship between a man and a woman as having a sexual undercurrent.

I for one reject that thesis. 

Oh, and what about close friendships with someone of the same gender who is homosexual? Is that friendship also suspect?


----------



## Cletus

Maneo said:


> "Always" - "..men always ruin the friendship..." Every man in every instance?
> 
> This discussion seems to be a litmus test of deeply held beliefs that seem to generalize based on gender for predictive behavior. Stereotypes appear to rule here.


If I hold a rock over your foot and say it will hurt when I drop it, you're free to believe that I'm stereotyping gravity.

As long as the words "never", "always", and "inevitably" are replaced with "unusually", "likely", and "often", I think we're on pretty solid ground here on the difference between the male and female perspective on opposite gender friendships.

Let's just say that if I were counseling my daughter, my advice would be to play it very carefully with boys who just wanted to be friends. There's nothing wrong with accepting reality.


----------



## costa200

> Quite often I see folks who claim to be sophisticated about having close OSFs. You look at many of their profiles and threads and can see the carnage. Divorced, separated, I want to leave my husband, I cannot get through to him, but oh yeah I refuse to give up my close freinds they are more important to me than my spouse. Duh!? Of course they are.


Exactly, under the veil of sophistication a whole sort of marriage harming behaviors get to exist. The problem is that quite often people are not looking to cheat. But they end up doing it. 

The illusion that you will be able to respect boundaries under all circumstances traps many couples in negative dynamics.

Lets face it. There are billions of people in this planet. Some of them will be compatible with you. Your spouse isn't the only compatible mate. In fact, it may be that the spouse isn't even the most compatible. 

When you surround yourself with other sex people and pursue relationships you are opening that door. You say you only open it this much... But the minimal distraction and the door will open a little bit more, and more, until it's right there, in your face, but by then you probably are so in it that your spouse is just an obstacle. Keeping you from spending time with your "soulmate". Stopping the development of the relationship that could be. The relationship that would be surely better than the one that is. 

Personally i don't need all that added drama in my life. I don't keep close female "friends". I have female acquaintances. I don't engage in intimate conversations with females other than my partner or close family. I give no opening for possible romantic interests of women that surround me every day. In my profession i work with dozens of women every day. I befriend none.

The same way i would not tolerate something like a close male friend of my partner. Mainly because i know how men operate. No mistake about it ladies. Unless you're ugly, that guy you call "friend" would bang you in a second. 

Some people may find this type of boundaries unbearable. I understand that. But this isn't something i will negotiate. This is how i conduct my business. 

And if you look at couples who manage a long term happy marriage you will see that they lean on each other rather than friends for emotional support. They usually don't keep a plethora of OSF around. This is not a coincidence.


----------



## krismimo

No Not ALL relationships will lead to infidelity. It all adds up to one thing it depends on the person it is free will by his or her own choices alone. Sure we can argue all day long which sex is going to do what who is going to who m x equals y blah blah blah. 

But the one common denominator is choice what did that spouse/SO ultimately decide to do? To me I think it is ridiculous that some people are not allowed to have friends of the opposite sex sorry I didn't mean to offend but that is how I feel. However if that is what you agree to in your marriage I for one do not have the right to dictate that. 

However the reason I don't agree with "banning" opposite sex as friends is because one could also argue that people who are NOT allowed to have friends of the opposite sex are more likely to have an affair. And I think deep down in a way were saying I don't trust you, or I don't trust them, so because of that you can't be friends with other women. or other men etc. What we all fail to understand is no one is safe. No matter how we try to put everyone in a box. We can't control what the other is going to do, the thing is what we do not want to admit is, it is their choice and their choice alone if they decide to stray or not. 

It is a matter of free choice and free will, if your spouse respects you and loves you enough and themselves enough not to stray no matter what circumstance they are in. It is up to your spouse or SO to respect the boundaries that you two have set, or they don't, simple as that. 

I have read so many stories from various back grounds that all stem from different economical class, education, race, upbringing religion etc. And in each of those cases someone cheated. In each story it was different but how the SO strayed varies it doesn't matter if it was co workers, family, best friends, neighbors, teachers, coaches or random strangers.They all made a choice found an opportunity and took it. And the one bone crushing fact about it is, there shouldn't have been an "opportunity" to begin with. 

To me the real test in life is when things are thrown at us how do we deal with it? The question is not weather or not if the opposite sex tempts a married partner to stray. But if our So or spouse respects and love you enough not to? Sure we can answer yes or no. But at the end of the day is up to them.


----------



## Maneo

"...accepting reality." would be your reality. Not all would agree it is the only reality in this instance.

This discussion has no single correct answer. If opposite sex friendships work for some, go for it. If such friendships don't work for others, go that way. 

Just don't tell me I should because you can or I shouldn't because you can't.

And I continue to reject stereotyping behaviors that appear to be based on p[personal experience but maybe there are some valid objective studies out there that indicate these particular behaviors can be predicted one way or the other based on gender.


----------



## Cletus

Maneo said:


> "...accepting reality." would be your reality. Not all would agree it is the only reality in this instance.


I am referring to reality in the statistically most likely outcome sense.

Which is certainly not the only reality - just the one that you're most likely to encounter, in a random world. I had hoped that I was pretty clear that using phrases like "always" is almost (always) wrong.


----------



## southbound

Goldmember357 said:


> Seems to me this is the case. I can point to a number of cases in which someone left the other person for a friend or cheated on a spouse with a friend. I can think to my own life and the problem opposite sex friends played before. In addition my own research on the psychology behind opposite sex friendships and seeing the issue they can play on individuals on this forum.
> 
> I am not against opposite sex friends UNLESS you are married. In a marriage keeping in constant contact with an opposite sex friend who is really close only will lead to trouble (imo).
> 
> It seems to me keeping any friend you may have had a past relationship with or you and that friend had past feeling but never acted on it. Is something that is very risky in the case of marriage. In the case of dating i am not so against them given the fact that dating is essentially a process of elimination.
> 
> Eventually curiosity will get the best of both of you and you will act on your feelings.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone else agree?


I agree with you. I suppose it also depends on how one defines "friend." I am around various married women in various places, such as work. Any woman that I see on a regular basis or have been around for years and get along with, I consider a friend; they aren't my enemy, but we don't hang out and call each other for buddy talks. 

I never understood people who were in a relationship, yet they had an "other" person of the opposite sex that they were big buddies with; they called each other a lot, perhaps exchanged gifts on occasion, shared deep conversations, etc. To me, that is just asking for trouble. 

As some have stated, I suppose women may be able to do it, but with us guys, the potential is always there to go a step further. That's just the way I am wired. I can fish and hang out with the guys. 

Do I think they all eventually become physical? Probably not, but I think a guy would always have those thoughts in his mind.


----------



## Coffee Amore

krismimo said:


> No Not ALL relationships will lead to infidelity. It all adds up to one thing it depends on the person it is free will by his or her own choices alone. Sure we can argue all day long which sex is going to do what who is going to who m x equals y blah blah blah.
> 
> But the one common denominator is choice what did that spouse/SO ultimately decide to do? To me I think it is ridiculous that some people are not allowed to have friends of the opposite sex sorry I didn't mean to offend but that is how I feel. However if that is what you agree to in your marriage I for one do not have the right to dictate that.
> 
> However the reason I don't agree with "banning" opposite sex as friends is because one could also argue that people who are NOT allowed to have friends of the opposite sex are more likely to have an affair. And I think deep down in a way were saying I don't trust you, or I don't trust them, so because of that you can't be friends with other women. or other men etc. What we all fail to understand is no one is safe. No matter how we try to put everyone in a box. We can't control what the other is going to do, the thing is what we do not want to admit is, it is their choice and their choice alone if they decide to stray or not.
> 
> It is a matter of free choice and free will, if your spouse respects you and loves you enough and themselves enough not to stray no matter what circumstance they are in. It is up to your spouse or SO to respect the boundaries that you two have set, or they don't, simple as that.
> 
> I have read so many stories from various back grounds that all stem from different economical class, education, race, upbringing religion etc. And in each of those cases someone cheated. In each story it was different but how the SO strayed varies it doesn't matter if it was co workers, family, best friends, neighbors, teachers, coaches or random strangers.They all made a choice found an opportunity and took it. And the one bone crushing fact about it is, there shouldn't have been an "opportunity" to begin with.
> 
> To me the real test in life is when things are thrown at us how do we deal with it? The question is not weather or not if the opposite sex tempts a married partner to stray. But if our So or spouse respects and love you enough not to? Sure we can answer yes or no. But at the end of the day is up to them.



Good post!

I agree also with the previous poster who said asking this question on TAM is like going to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting and asking if alcohol has any benefits. 

If your wife or husband is an alcoholic does that mean ALL other women and men should avoid alcohol completely? Some people have poor boundaries. Others don't.


----------



## krismimo

Ohh thanks Coffee! I really appreciate it.


----------



## Thundarr

lovelygirl said:


> It's like the type of girl who has always had more MALE friends than female ones. You just have to accept and get used to it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No they scare the crap out of me. I have this theory that women who can't get along with other women are MEAN . Disclaimer: I'm sort of not kidding but I also know some girls just like being one of the guys.


----------



## Thundarr

Entropy3000 said:


> It is not the sex between friends that kills marriages. Yes that does happen. Sometimes it is even discovered.
> 
> It is the bonding and the redirected energy and initmacy to others instead of the spouse. Where that level of bonding becomes detrimental to the marriage may vary. Few people would even recognize it though. It manifests itself in other ways. Like the feeling of lost affection. The ILYBIANILWY. The growing apart and so on.
> 
> Quite often I see folks who claim to be sophisticated about having close OSFs. You look at many of their profiles and threads and can see the carnage. Divorced, separated, I want to leave my husband, I cannot get through to him, but oh yeah I refuse to give up my close freinds they are more important to me than my spouse. Duh!? Of course they are.
> 
> Still others tout how they are really living in an open marriage. Keep that in mind if your goal is monogamy when they talk how important OSFs are to them.
> 
> Dating other people with the boundary of no sex is what many folks are talking about. Being sophisticated.
> 
> All marriages have some level of openess. Some folks just draw the line as more open than others. Most of those declare no sex. Others declare sex but no emotional attachment.
> 
> It comes down to what your goal is for your marriage. For some having a monogamous marriage is not a high priority or is not their goal at all.


I'm so glad you decided to join this thread. Those are all things I believe but did not think to articulate and certainly would not have so well. By the way progressive is another word for sophisticated in this regard.


----------



## Thundarr

Maneo said:


> "...accepting reality." would be your reality. Not all would agree it is the only reality in this instance.
> 
> This discussion has no single correct answer. If opposite sex friendships work for some, go for it. If such friendships don't work for others, go that way.
> 
> Just don't tell me I should because you can or I shouldn't because you can't.
> 
> And I continue to reject stereotyping behaviors that appear to be based on p[personal experience but maybe there are some valid objective studies out there that indicate these particular behaviors can be predicted one way or the other based on gender.


:iagree: Some people maybe Jaq and Coffee for example can have OSF and no problems. I on the other hand for many it's an unnecessary risk that sometimes manifest in EA or like Entropy pointed out manifest in an emotional disconnect from the spouse. My wife and I talked about this and fortunately we were on the same page.


----------



## TRy

Do all opposite sex friendships become physical sooner or later? No, of course not, but so what? The same can be said for emotional affairs (EA) where only about 1/2 go on to be physical affairs. The real issue is that 100% of all EAs started out as opposite sex "just friends". Those that say that they trust their spouse not to cheat are really only talking about physical affairs (PA), because their spouse may be able to control what they physically do, but they cannot control how they feel. Many divorces are caused by EAs that never went physical.


----------



## krismimo

I was speaking about both the PA & EA.


----------



## krismimo

My point is there is always, ALWAYS a choice weather if it is a EA or PA.


----------



## jaquen

lovelygirl said:


> I think every relationship/friendship you build with people depends on your lifestyle.
> If you're a journalist, entertainer, actor/singer....etc it's impossible to not have regular OSF. the job and circumstances it be a norm for you.


Very good point. In my line of work, there just is no such thing as men and women _not _having OSF. Acting training, and the work itself, puts you constantly in close, intimate proximity to gorgeous women, to the point where that's just your norm. Sure there will be crisscross for most people, but it's utterly mundane, and typical, for me to see men and women in OSF that are strictly platonic (and I'm not including the gay men here either). I can't even imagine sitting down with somebody I know, a female, and saying "sorry, can't be friends with you anymore cuz you're a woman". The thought sounds utterly absurd. 

But I can't help but chuckle when a TAMer declares the reality of my life, and the lives of those around me, to be basically non-existent. :rofl:




lovelygirl said:


> Or if you're the person who has always had close OSF throughout your life then all your partner has to do is accept it or move on. Some people are just made to have OSF the entire time. It's like the type of girl who has always had more MALE friends than female ones. You just have to accept and get used to it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Another truth. You are on a roll.

I'm also beginning to believe that age is a factor here. Perhaps some of the older people are the ones who come from a generation where OSF wasn't expected, and is automatically thought of as dangerous?


----------



## jaquen

Entropy3000 said:


> Dating other people with the boundary of no sex is what many folks are talking about. Being sophisticated.


I agree with you on so much, but I didn't buy this crap the first time you sold it, and it's still rotten today.

You have no idea what a date is if you think a man, and a woman, merely going out together automatically qualifies as a "date".

A "date" is set up with the express intention of both parties being open to romance. It's all in _intention_. If I go out with a female friend, like I just did two weeks ago, it's no different than if I go out with one of my boys.

Unless, of course, you're suggesting that men going out together to bond is also "dating".


----------



## Wazza

This is a much better discussion than this topic usually gets on TAM.

I have opposite sex friends, but boundaries are drawn with some room for error...ie if I breach them I will still not be in an EA or a PA. and it is carried on with full knowledge and visibility for my wife. I encourage her to tell me if she is worried about what I am doing.

My best friend apart from my wife is also female, but lives in another country, and I do all I can to make sure she and her husband are friends with my wife and I.

I don't want to fall into an E by accident....even if I have the strength to end it, it would still hurt. And I don't necessarily assume I would have the strength.

And if I am honest, as a male I have sexual thoughts about lots of women. I don't see a danger in having an idle sexual thought about my close female friends, but if I start to dwell on those thoughts it is a a problem.


----------



## Entropy3000

jaquen said:


> I agree with you on so much, but I didn't buy this crap the first time you sold it, and it's still rotten today.
> 
> You have no idea what a date is if you think a man, and a woman, merely going out together automatically qualifies as a "date".
> 
> A "date" is set up with the express intention of both parties being open to romance. It's all in _intention_. If I go out with a female friend, like I just did two weeks ago, it's no different than if I go out with one of my boys.
> 
> Unless, of course, you're suggesting that men going out together to bond is also "dating".


We disagree dude. Deal with it. Hanging out one on one is a date in my opinion. It is the activity not the intent. You can certainly define a date as such up front. You are just naive or choose to be believe because it suits your agenda. You embrace a more open marrige than I do. Good for you.

I have no idea your sexual orientation and frankly do not care.

I could call your view crap as well. However I am not trying to impress anyone with my awesome edginess and lifestyle. You are welcome to your opinion. You have a lot more living to do and you likely will change your view on many things over time if you continue to grow intellectually.

When I was younger I had a different view than I do now. It is not so much age as experience. Experience gives you more data points. Kinda like being able to see through a clear windshield with the added expereince or the blur of a not so clear windshield with less experience. Knowledge is power in this case.


----------



## jaquen

Entropy3000 said:


> We disagree dude. Deal with it.


Dude I'm "dealing with it" just fine. Somehow, someway, I've managed.




Entropy3000 said:


> You are just naive or choose to be naive because it suits your agenda. You embrace a more open marrige than I do.


What a crock of sh*t. On this topic, you are incapable of being even remotely logical, or sane for that matter. 



Entropy3000 said:


> I have no idea your sexual orientation and frankly do not care.


What the F*UCK are you talking about?



Entropy3000 said:


> However I am not trying to impress anyone with my awesome edginess and lifestyle.


And you're suggesting that I am? Give me a break with this nonsense. It's amazing how catty, and passive aggressive, you're getting over a basic difference in perspective. You make all these sweeping generalizations about all men, and all women, on planet Earth who don't agree with your stringent, closed minded views, and the moment you're challenged on your archaic views you get all pissy, and start with this absurdness.



Entropy3000 said:


> You have a lot more living to do and you likely will change your view on many things over time if you continue to grow intellectually.


I.e., in time I can look forward to becoming like you. Paranoid about all potential "EAs", scared of women, judgmental about marriages that are different than my own, and totally untrusting of my spouse.

No thanks.

What a poor show you've made of it with this post. So beneath what I'd expect from you.


----------



## Entropy3000

jaquen said:


> Dude I'm "dealing with it" just fine. Somehow, someway, I've managed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a crock of sh*t. On this topic, you are incapable of being even remotely logical, or sane for that matter.
> 
> 
> 
> What the F*UCK are you talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> And you're suggesting that I am? Give me a break with this nonsense. It's amazing how catty, and passive aggressive, you're getting over a basic difference in perspective. You make all these sweeping generalizations about all men, and all women, on planet Earth who don't agree with your stringent, closed minded views, and the moment you're challenged on your archaic views you get all pissy, and start with this absurdness.
> 
> 
> 
> I.e., in time I can look forward to becoming like you. Paranoid about all potential "EAs", scared of women, judgmental about marriages that are different than my own, and totally untrusting of my spouse.
> 
> No thanks.
> 
> What a poor show you've made of it with this post. So beneath what I'd expect from you.


You have lost your cool dude. Go hangout with one of your boys so they can talk you down.

You are not worth discussing anything with right now because you have lost your composure. Seriously. I am embarrassed for you right now.

Good night and the chill out ....

Continue this disgreement sans ... me.


----------



## that_girl

*Whoa. Everyone chill!! CHILL SO HARD! Dang.*

I went out with my friend. He and I went for Pho and talked. Oh no.

Not a date. Not at all. We went back to his place  to work. And that "work" will be live on Friday. :woohoo:


----------



## jaquen

Entropy3000 said:


> You have lost your cool dude.


Funny, because that was my exact thought reading your insulting, passive-aggressive little post above.




Entropy3000 said:


> Go hangout with one of your boys so they can talk you down.
> 
> You are not worth discussing anything with right now because you have lost your composure. Seriously. I am embarrassed for you right now.
> 
> Good night and the chill out ....
> 
> Continue this disgreement sans ... me.



You can't be serious right now. You're embarrassed _for me_? After you poor, wittle feelings were hurt over somebody calling you on your crap, and you felt the need to stoop to the level of personal insult, and condescension? Now you're pretending to be above it all?

This is pure comedy. :rofl:


----------



## that_girl

Both of you knock it off. Seriously.

You have different opinions...BOTH valid. BOTH something to think about.

Knock it off.


----------



## jaquen

that_girl said:


> Both of you knock it off. Seriously.
> 
> You have different opinions...BOTH valid. BOTH something to think about.
> 
> Knock it off.


I don't find an ounce of validity in Entropy's declarations about other people's marriages. I responded to this man because I was weary of reading yet another insulting post telling people who have OSF that they are clueless, naive fools who live in "open marriages", and are dating others while married. That is what this man believes; that if you go out to lunch, alone, with a member of the opposite sex than you believe in dating outside of your marriage, and have thus entered into an "open marriage". Nonsense, of course. 

Even then, I have no problem disagreeing on fundamental differences. Where I draw the line at is being talked down to, and expected to pretend that I don't note the obvious. I am a grown man, and if this man was under the mistaken assumption that he was going to get a free pass to be insulting, pissy, and passive aggressive with me, and I was going to ignore it, then he was sorely mistaken.

If I am banned for calling him on his sh*t, I will understand.


----------



## Tony55

*"A woman may very well form a friendship with a man, but for this to endure, it must be assisted by a little physical antipathy."*
_Friedrich Nietzsche _


an·tip·a·thy 
Noun
*A deep-seated feeling of dislike; aversion.*
Synonyms
*aversion - dislike - repugnance - distaste - repulsion*

T


----------



## that_girl

jaquen said:


> I don't find an ounce of validity in Entropy's declarations about other people's marriages. I responded to this man because I was weary of reading yet another insulting post telling people who have OSF that they are clueless, naive fools who live in "open marriages", and are dating others while married. That is what this man believes; that if you go out to lunch, alone, with a member of the opposite sex than you believe in dating outside of your marriage, and have thus entered into an "open marriage". Nonsense, of course.
> 
> Even then, I have no problem disagreeing on fundamental differences. Where I draw the line at is being talked down to, and expected to pretend that I don't note the obvious. I am a grown man, and if this man was under the mistaken assumption that he was going to get a free pass to be insulting, pissy, and passive aggressive with me, and I was going to ignore it, then he was sorely mistaken.
> 
> If I am banned for calling him on his sh*t, I will understand.


Point taken. I just don't like fighting


----------



## krismimo

I also find Entropy's post "out there". And that girl I agree with you but Entropy threw the first "insults" first. However Jaquen don't take the bait and you have a right to defend yourself but it's a mood point on the internet...


----------



## that_girl

Oh I didn't even read what they wrote 

I just wanted them to stop fighting...cause...it's pointless. I like them both.


----------



## krismimo

It is pointless, can't we all just get along?


----------



## Lyris

that_girl said:


> *Whoa. Everyone chill!! CHILL SO HARD! Dang.*


OT, but this is my favourite phrase ever.


----------



## Dollystanford

I have opposite sex friends
no I do not want to sleep with them
ew

my married boss took me out to dinner a couple of weeks ago
no I do not want to sleep with him
ew


----------



## krismimo

I work in a smaller version of Global Gym... enough said. Hell no.


----------



## TRy

jaquen said:


> In my line of work, there just is no such thing as men and women _not _having OSF. Acting training, and the work itself, puts you constantly in close, intimate proximity to gorgeous women, to the point where that's just your norm. Sure there will be crisscross for most people, but it's utterly mundane, and typical, for me to see men and women in OSF that are strictly platonic (and I'm not including the gay men here either). I can't even imagine sitting down with somebody I know, a female, and saying "sorry, can't be friends with you anymore cuz you're a woman". The thought sounds utterly absurd.
> 
> But I can't help but chuckle when a TAMer declares the reality of my life, and the lives of those around me, to be basically non-existent. :rofl:


 Yes and actors are well know for not cheating on their spouses, NOT!!!! 

When you look at famous Hollywood couples, most got started when at least one of the actors ignores their marraige and cheats on the set with another actor on the set. Talk about absurd, cheating in Hollywood is so common, I get a chuckle out of the fact that you would try to use the moral values of Hollywood as a role model for us to follow in our marriages. Keep posting as you are helping the argument as to why opposite sex friends are dangerous to marriages.:rofl:.


----------



## 45188

jaquen said:


> For the life of me I can't fathom where you got that gist when a few men in this thread have stated that they have female friends they are not sexually attracted to, and haven't ever crossed the line with.
> 
> Let me put it this way. I know a lot of men can't be friends with attractive women. In fact my wife had a couple male "friends" who I instinctually knew had feelings for her, even though she didn't believe me initially (and I was right). But "a lot" is not "all", especially in more urban, liberal spaces where male/female platonic friendships aren't rare. Sometimes I do wonder where some of you live.
> 
> Some men don't cheat. Period.
> 
> I didn't. Even in my 20's, with female friends, living several states away from my baby, surrounded by attractive female friends, during a long period of celibacy, and being what people called an attractive man...
> 
> Never once did I "slip" into a female friend, or even become remotely close to doing so. When my heart is taken, it's taken, and that's always been the case for me. Every single one of my female friends heard me gush about my woman. If any of them thought here was a possibility, and a couple did looking back, that was shut down from the get go.
> 
> You don't know all men. You only think you do.



I really, really admire your honesty. It's really refreshing, and I need to stop being so negative. I'm just.. loyal to the point where I don't even think of other men, so when you said he probably thought of other women, it hurt. Badly. I mean that's pretty earth shattering to me.

Earlier I was talking to some friends and one of the girls said that every single girl she knows fantasizes about other men while having sex with her husband. I was floored. I don't do that!!! I never have! And my boyfriend was listening and he said "See, women do that." And HIS friend jumped into the conversation and said "When men are having sex they just think 'dat ass' " 

lol

I also agree with TRY about the actors thing.. Actors are ****ty as hell! lol


----------



## jaquen

TRy said:


> Yes and actors are well know for not cheating on their spouses, NOT!!!!
> 
> When you look at famous Hollywood couples, most got started when at least one of the actors ignores their marraige and cheats on the set with another actor on the set. Talk about absurd, cheating in Hollywood is so common, I get a chuckle out of the fact that you would try to use the moral values of Hollywood as a role model for us to follow in our marriages. Keep posting as you are helping the argument as to why opposite sex friends are dangerous to marriages.:rofl:.


Where did you see "Hollywood" in my post?

I don't live in "Hollywood". I don't live anywhere near "Hollywood".

Please provide a direct quote.


----------



## krismimo

He didn't say anything about moral values regarding Hollywood he was using his own experience of the choices he made. Which brings it back to my point. He made a choice not to. It's all about a choice.


----------



## krismimo

In fact he (jaquen) actually made my point it is typical for him that he is not phased by it. If your going to disagree with someone you should be more careful in how you "quote" them.


----------



## jaquen

krismimo said:


> He didn't say anything about moral values regarding Hollywood he was using his own experience of the choices he made. Which brings it back to my point. He made a choice not to. It's all about a choice.


Thank you.

I also never commented one way, or another, on how promiscuous actors may, or may not, be (I'll just ignore the blatant stereotype of me, and my fellow artists in the business).

I spoke of my experience, my reality, and the world I live in, on the topic at hand; OSF are common in my life, among the people I know (actors, and otherwise).

A lot of totally unfounded insinuations going on here.

I also am baffled as to why so many people on this board who are anti-OSF are so vitriolic, and flat out mad, about people having an opposite view.


----------



## Coffee Amore

jaquen said:


> I don't find an ounce of validity in Entropy's declarations about other people's marriages. I responded to this man because I was weary of reading yet another insulting post telling people who have OSF that they are clueless, naive fools who live in "open marriages", and are dating others while married. That is what this man believes; that if you go out to lunch, alone, with a member of the opposite sex than you believe in dating outside of your marriage, and have thus entered into an "open marriage". Nonsense, of course.
> 
> Even then, I have no problem disagreeing on fundamental differences. Where I draw the line at is being talked down to, and expected to pretend that I don't note the obvious. I am a grown man, and if this man was under the mistaken assumption that he was going to get a free pass to be insulting, pissy, and passive aggressive with me, and I was going to ignore it, then he was sorely mistaken.
> 
> If I am banned for calling him on his sh*t, I will understand.


:iagree:

What's interesting to me reading this thread is that people who have good strong marriages untouched by infidelity have posted that they have OSF and they know how to keep OSF platonic. SimplyAmorous, Lyris, Stonewall, and you Jaquen to name a few. It's absurd to say these marriages are open or allow dating. I don't think I've ever read any of these posters as advocating such a thing in their marriages.


----------



## krismimo

No prob just spoke on what you had written. Well I'm speaking from experience also so I know what you say to a certain degree holds true. Plus I used to do that line of work although I was younger and I might go back to it again. I miss it...But I understand where you are coming from.


----------



## that_girl

I am very close to two other people than my husband. one is a male, one a female...we aren't dating. lol. We're connecting.


----------



## krismimo

Coffee Amore you are right you are so right and since that door is open I have to ask since were on the topic of trust is this really about self esteem? I asked my husband about it and he said it is a matter of self esteem and it sounded to him that maybe some people are insecure deep down. So I have to ask. Is this really about being on the same "page" or is it really about self esteem issues?


----------



## Tony55

krismimo said:


> I also find Entropy's post "out there". And that girl I agree with you but *Entropy threw the first "insults" first*. However Jaquen don't take the bait and you have a right to defend yourself but it's a mood point on the internet...


This is incorrect, and out of fairness to Entropy, I think it should be pointed out that the comments took a negative _personal_ turn at post #110 and out of control at post #113.

Entropy is entitled to his opinion on this topic, and even though he was making his point passionately, I didn't get the impression that he was trying to "insult" anyone.

T


----------



## jaquen

Coffee Amore said:


> :iagree:
> 
> What's interesting to me reading this thread is that people who have good strong marriages untouched by infidelity have posted that they have OSF and they know how to keep OSF platonic. SimplyAmorous, Lyris, Stonewall, and you Jaquen to name a few. It's absurd to say these marriages are open or allow dating. I don't think I've ever read any of these posters as advocating such a thing in their marriages.


And our experiences are being utterly ignored. Even the older TAMers, who've been in the relationship arena for decades, are saying that they've been able to do this.

And yet the other side doesn't even seem register our real life experiences. It's as if we're talking into dead air. So far Kipani and Thundarr, in true form, are the only posters who has taken the time to at least acknowledge a difference in perspective, and not totally dismiss the other side. 

It's also amazing to me that people keep telling us it's just a matter of time before we slip, as if we all had perfect relationships, and perfect marriages. Before we married, but were deeply in love, I moved away to finish up at a major university in NYC. My lady was hundreds of miles away, we were actually in a very rough patch, I was surrounded by beautiful women, in a very "free" environment, and had OSF.

Still didn't cheat. Didn't come close. Why? Because my stance is you don't cheat on people you love. I have never cheated on anybody, despite obvious interest from others.

I acknowledged earlier, and will restate here, that not all people can have OSF, especially men. If you know, in your heart of hearts, that you aren't able to be around a person of the opposite sex who is attractive, and keep it strictly platonic, than by all means stay away. There is no use in playing with fire.

But to continue to tell other people that their history on this planet is invalid, that because you have trouble with OSF, or even if the majority have issues, it means ALL people will, is flat out wrong.


----------



## krismimo

I put the "insult" in quotations. There is a difference in sharing your beliefs vs opposing them on someone. And that is how you interpret it tony but there are a number people here who would disagree with you. I'm not saying he is wrong I'm saying there is tactfulness in how you deliver what you say and although I personally did not find him insulting he was condescending.


----------



## jaquen

Tony55 said:


> This is incorrect, and out of fairness to Entropy, I think it should be pointed out that the comments took a negative _personal_ turn at post #110 and out of control at post #113.
> 
> Entropy is entitled to his opinion on this topic, and even though he was making his point passionately, I didn't get the impression that he was trying to "insult" anyone.
> 
> T


Interesting how you skipped right over the broad based, condescending insults featured in post #92, and the personal attacks at me in post #112.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> I don't find an ounce of validity in Entropy's declarations about other people's marriages. I responded to this man because I was weary of reading yet another insulting post telling people who have OSF that they are clueless, naive fools who live in "open marriages", and are dating others while married. That is what this man believes; that if you go out to lunch, alone, with a member of the opposite sex than you believe in dating outside of your marriage, and have thus entered into an "open marriage". Nonsense, of course.
> 
> Even then, I have no problem disagreeing on fundamental differences. Where I draw the line at is being talked down to, and expected to pretend that I don't note the obvious. I am a grown man, and if this man was under the mistaken assumption that he was going to get a free pass to be insulting, pissy, and passive aggressive with me, and I was going to ignore it, then he was sorely mistaken.
> 
> If I am banned for calling him on his sh*t, I will understand.


Entropy had an EA that he himself was not aware he was in until he had withdrawls so I wish you guys would listen to his perspective first and disagree later. It does apply to some people but I think he'd like for his words to prevent even one EA. Yes many people with OSF are very naive but personally I don't think you (Jaq, Cof, that, etc) or most of the pro OSF TAMERS are naive about it. 

What's unfortunate is that the people who would benifit from hearing that some people (ME) think OSF are risking are not on TAM to begin with until after the fact. Instead there are marrige and relationship aware posters (at least for this type of subject) who kind of know the dangers and manage them well. 

Both sides of this subject are going to sound condescending to the other so I wish we would all get thicker skin so we can actually debate what the other is saying without verbal slapping.


----------



## krismimo

Well thundar that was on him. I don't think he was being disrespectful, I'm for am not, coffee nor others that don't agree with him are. And I think we have pretty thick skin to say the least.


----------



## that_girl

Guys, guys...come on. We all shine


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> So far Kipani and Thundarr, in true form, are the only posters who has taken the time to at least acknowledge a difference in perspective, and not totally dismiss the other side.


Thank you Jaquen.


----------



## Dollystanford

I think everyone should kiss and make up and go out for a drink

no touching!


----------



## that_girl

Dollystanford said:


> I think everyone should kiss and make up and go out for a drink
> 
> no touching!


I'd touch you. Rawr


----------



## Kronk

Why do people get so upset by others opinions?

Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one and some stink more than others, doesn't mean we hate on them for it though does it!


----------



## Thundarr

krismimo said:


> I put the "insult" in quotations. There is a difference in sharing your beliefs vs opposing them on someone. And that is how you interpret it tony but there are a number people here who would disagree with you. I'm not saying he is wrong I'm saying there is tactfulness in how you deliver what you say and although I personally did not find him insulting *he was condescending.*


There's the rub. There is no way for pro OSF to say anti OSF is archaic or unsophisticated with out is sounding condescending. There is also no way for me to say many people are naive about OSF without is sounding condescending to many of you guys.

I think we have to deal with this subject with full knowledge that it's condescending from both directions and just attempt to get past the judgement we feel. Otherwise we won't even read the intent or ideas of the comments.


----------



## krismimo

That is how you look at it thundarr. I specifically wrote myself that I don't agree but it is not in my place to tell how to run someones marriage. However when you over generalize and put everyone in the same category. And again your giving your opinion as though I'm not being biased and I called it like i saw it. He was wrong. He usually gives good posts but I disagree with him this time. I do not impose my feelings or views on anyone and that is what he did. Simple as that.


----------



## Wazza

Thundarr said:


> There's the rub. There is no way for pro OSF to say anti OSF is archaic or unsophisticated with out is sounding condescending to me. There is also no way for me to say many are naive about OSF without is sounding condescending.
> 
> I think we have to deal with this subject with full knowledge that it's condescending from both directions and just attempt to get past the judgement we feel. Otherwise we won't even read the intent or ideas of the comments.


Does it have to be condescending? Surely disagreement is not the same thing as condescension.


----------



## krismimo

furthermore your also stating that either side cant give his or her opinion without it being condescending. That is not true. Again that is another generalization.


----------



## Thundarr

krismimo said:


> That is how you look at it thundarr. I specifically wrote myself that I don't agree but it is not in my place to tell how to run someones marriage. However when you over generalize and put everyone in the same category. And again your giving your opinion as though I'm not being biased and I called it like i saw it. He was wrong. He usually gives good posts but I disagree with him this time. I do not impose my feelings or views on anyone and that is what he did. Simple as that.


I've been in enough of these threads to know that given some challenge to specific points, Entropy would have restated the intent of various aspects. Instead it became a "who dare you" direction which shut down the exchange. I doubt our intent is to shut down desenting opinions but rather to argue why we disagree.


----------



## krismimo

No It did not. Fine your on team Entropy. So talking down about a mans sex orientation is a good counter argument?


----------



## Thundarr

krismimo said:


> furthermore your also stating that either side cant give his or her opinion without it being condescending. That is not true. Again that is another generalization.


Furthermore I did not. I said it sounds that way. Cmon guys I know it's late but really. "sounds like" is not "like".


----------



## mhg

Maneo said:


> yes it is possible to have friends of the other gender. I'm male and have female friends. Not all men are Neanderthals who will whip it out if given the slightest opportunity. There are an infinite number of scenarios where something might/could happen and there are men who use the "that's the way men are made" excuse for promiscuity but that is just a convenient crutch. And there are women who flair into jealously if their man just says hi in a friendly way to another woman but that is fed by the woman's insecurity. The myth that every man-woman relationship has a sexual undercurrent is just that - myth, fed by outdated pop Freudian psychology.


I agree completely.

My wife's two best friends, apart from me, are both men. Both of them are married, and their wives have no problem with their friendship with my wife.
I trust her and both of these men implicitly. I asked her just now whether she had ever had any sexual interest in either of them, and she nearly fell over backwards laughing.

She is also good friends with her ex husband. He spends Christmas lunch with us, children's birthdays etc, and we all have a bloody good laugh. She describes him as being one of her best friends.

It would never even occur to me to think she might be attracted to any of them.


----------



## krismimo

I'm not either thudarr not in the least. I was talking about how Entropy was talking about Jaquens sexual orientation which was not necessary.


----------



## TRy

krismimo said:


> I'm not either thudarr not in the least. I was talking about how Entropy was talking about Jaquens sexual orientation which was not necessary.


 Entropy was directly responding to a post where Jaquens said "and I'm not including the gay men here either", so Entropy did not bring it up completely out of left field.


----------



## krismimo

When he said that he wasn't talking about himself when Entropy said it it was directed at Jaquen which was thrown as an insult to Jaquen.


----------



## TRy

jaquen said:


> Where did you see "Hollywood" in my post?
> 
> I don't live in "Hollywood". I don't live anywhere near "Hollywood".
> 
> Please provide a direct quote.


 Most shows and movies are not made in Hollywood, so I am talking more about the actor culture than a location. Regardless. if you substitute "Actor(s)" for "Hollywood" my post still applies.


----------



## TRy

I think that many miss the point that no one is saying that having opposite sex friends guarantees cheating. What we are saying is that it increases the odds of cheating. We all must do a risk reward and decide if it is worth it. 

I also would like to point out that most people that have emotional affairs do not realize that they are doing anything wrong until after the fact, and even then many do not fully comprehend the damage the emotional affair had on their marraige. I have a friend (I was in his first wedding) that clearly had an emotional affair with a "just a friend" that resulted in him divorcing his long term wife for the other women. Even though he moved in with the emotional affair partner only 2 months after the divorce, and even though he married the affair partner a few months later, he feels that he did nothing wrong because he did not have sex with his emotional affair partner until after the divorce.


----------



## 45188

mhg said:


> I agree completely.
> 
> My wife's two best friends, apart from me, are both men. Both of them are married, and their wives have no problem with their friendship with my wife.
> I trust her and both of these men implicitly. I asked her just now whether she had ever had any sexual interest in either of them, and she nearly fell over backwards laughing.
> 
> She is also good friends with her ex husband. He spends Christmas lunch with us, children's birthdays etc, and we all have a bloody good laugh. She describes him as being one of her best friends.
> 
> It would never even occur to me to think she might be attracted to any of them.



Stay out of the infidelity section. Wife had an affair with best friend is a common topic there.. posted by people who had no idea and completely trusted their wife and best friend..


----------



## lovelygirl

Thundarr said:


> No they scare the crap out of me. I have this theory that women who can't get along with other women are MEAN . Disclaimer: I'm sort of not kidding but I also know some girls just like being one of the guys.


I usually tend to agree with this and I think if a female doesn't get along with other females then there's some problem with her.


----------



## lovelygirl

jaquen said:


> I agree with you on so much, but I didn't buy this crap the first time you sold it, and it's still rotten today.
> 
> You have no idea what a date is if you think a man, and a woman, merely going out together automatically qualifies as a "date".
> 
> A "date" is set up with the express intention of both parties being open to romance. It's all in _intention_. If I go out with a female friend, like I just did two weeks ago, it's no different than if I go out with one of my boys.
> 
> Unless, of course, you're suggesting that men going out together to bond is also "dating".


My exact same thoughts. I've said the same thing in other similar threads. 
"dating" and "hanging out with a mate" depends on the intention.
Otherwise every meet up between a woman and a man would be called a "date". 
I think this term is over used by Americans. I've gone out to the movies with my male friends and I've hung out for coffees (one on one) but in no way did I think I was dating some of them. I also go out with my male work colleagues during the break at work ..but it doesn't mean I'm dating them.


----------



## 45188

I don't get along with a lot of females lovely, but I don't really.. like gossip. I guess I feel judged by a lot of them. I don't go out of my way to be mean or something, just got that mental stereotype that they're just gonna talk about me behind my back if I give them anything.

Sorry for the stereotype, I just don't like THOSE types of girls ~_~

Jaq I thought men going out together was always bonding time?? Thats what my bf says. To hang out, bullcrap and just bond.

Hehe lovely I used to go to the movies with male friends. THEY thought they were dates. I just wanted to see the damn movie!


----------



## lovelygirl

I don't think females who have more male friends are necessarily mean but I just think they have this fake opinion about themselves that they are superior to other females and think males are better. While it's true that sometimes men are better at having some talks you don't like to have with your female friends..., yet I don't see any reason to have more male friends than females ones. It's a scientific and natural fact that you usually get along better and have more things in common with people of your own sex.


----------



## Lyris

lovelygirl said:


> I don't think females who have more male friends are necessarily mean but I just think they have this fake opinion about themselves that they are superior to other females and think males are better. While it's true that sometimes men are better at having some talks you don't like to have with your female friends..., yet I don't see any reason to have more male friends than females ones. It's an avoidable scientific and natural fact that you usually get along better and have more things in common with people of your own sex.


It's internalised misogyny. Society rocks. It rocks so hard [tm that_girl]


----------



## Dollystanford

I'm sure I've said this somewhere before, but I'm always suspicious of a woman who has no female friends - and have been right every time


----------



## mhg

kipani said:


> Stay out of the infidelity section. Wife had an affair with best friend is a common topic there.. posted by people who had no idea and completely trusted their wife and best friend..


Sorry kipani, still have to say I have complete faith in her and them.
Both of them are in their late 60's incidentally, I think she almost sees them as surrogate father figures.
One calls her the daughter he never had, the other says she's like his little sister.
I think it's ridiculous to assume that just because she has male friends, she's going to cheat.


----------



## RandomDude

My wife and I have a rather balanced system of handling OSFs. We've always been in agreement about this thankfully. Pretty much we have joint control over our social circles and we respect each other's decisions when it comes to who stays and who goes.

If she doesn't like anyone of my mates, then they can go. I don't care, my wife is still my best mate as well as my wife, not about to choose them over her. Same goes with her, which is nice, because sometimes her potential OSF starts getting p-ssed off that I don't like him and starts badmouthing me with my wife and she tells me everything and then watches as I make him run for his life. Fun fun

It's something we agreed upon very early, and maybe it won't work for others but it has worked for 4 years for us. We never had problems with infidelity in marriage or with OSFs.



> I think it's ridiculous to assume that just because she has male friends, she's going to cheat.


 Agreed


----------



## mhg's-wife

lovelygirl said:


> I don't think females who have more male friends are necessarily mean but I just think they have this fake opinion about themselves that they are superior to other females and think males are better. While it's true that sometimes men are better at having some talks you don't like to have with your female friends..., yet I don't see any reason to have more male friends than females ones. It's a scientific and natural fact that you usually get along better and have more things in common with people of your own sex.


I must be terribly unscientific and unnatural then. I have far more in common with my male friends than female friends.

I have more male than female friends. Do I consider myself superior? Ha, far from it.

I just find it easier to talk to men about cattle, farming practices, pasture grasses, etc. 
Women talking about fashion, shoes, handbags, make up, etc, bores me brainless.

With my husband, I am the world's biggest flirt, tease and sex-mad nympho.
With male friends, our whole conversation is about what to plant when and how much freakin fertilizer it's going to need.

I must be the strangest woman on the planet.

If my husband even hinted that he wasn't happy about my friendship with my male friends, or my ex husband for that matter, I would walk away from them in a second.
He simply knows he has nothing to worry about and he TRUSTS me.


----------



## lovelygirl

mhg's-wife said:


> I must be terribly unscientific and unnatural then. I have far more in common with my male friends than female friends.
> 
> I have more male than female friends. Do I consider myself superior? Ha, far from it.
> 
> I just find it easier to talk to men about cattle, farming practices, pasture grasses, etc.
> Women talking about fashion, shoes, handbags, make up, etc, bores me brainless.
> 
> With my husband, I am the world's biggest flirt, tease and sex-mad nympho.
> With male friends, our whole conversation is about what to plant when and how much freakin fertilizer it's going to need.
> 
> I must be the strangest woman on the planet.
> 
> If my husband even hinted that he wasn't happy about my friendship with my male friends, or my ex husband for that matter, I would walk away from them in a second.
> He simply knows he has nothing to worry about and he TRUSTS me.


I didn't say women like you are strange or unnatural. 
You just underestimate the female creatures _or _you're simply jealous of the fact that you can't attract male attention when you're with a group of girls..., so you decide to move into a group of guys to get the missing attention by trying to fit in until you get used to their talks and viewpoints. 

The way you talk about females and portray them as some brainless living people who only talk about fashion/handbags/make up ....shows that you lack feminine aspects in your personality. *This is not necessarily a bad thing. I can understand, some girls are more girly and some are less....and there's NOTHING wrong with either type..*
BUT saying that they are brainless and fashion is the only thing they talk about is not fair and certainly not true.


----------



## FalconKing

lovelygirl said:


> I didn't say women like you are strange or unnatural.
> You just underestimate the female creatures _or _you're simply jealous of the fact that you can't attract male attention when you're with a group of girls..., so you decide to move into a group of guys to get the missing attention by trying to fit in until you get used to their talks and viewpoints.


happens a lot.


----------



## costa200

This thread degenerated a bit but now seems back on track so i'm going to add a little food for thought.

We have here people saying that "i've married for X years with Y OSF and it was never a problem".

That's totally fine. I equate that to a lion tamer who never got scratched by his cats. He goes into the cage to perform and in his mind he so much better than every other scratched dudes he saw at the yearly lion tamer reunion. He has total control over the situation and firmly believes his cats will never put a nail on him.

Then young lion tamers to be ask him if they can do this activity and never get scratches. And this lion tamer grins and says that it is perfectly possible because he has been doing this for X years with Y lions and he never got nicked. 

Now, this lion tamer may get lucky and have the skills to continue to have a perfect skin. Does that mean it is likely to be a lion tamer and retire with flawless skin? No, it really doesn't. Probability says they will get scratched, if not worse.

You guys that are perfectly fine with OSF are these magnificent lion tamers! You're telling the rest of us that it will not happen to you. But there is a question you are not answering. And i'm bloody curious about what the men have to say about this. What makes you get in that cage in the first place? Can you be honest with yourselves in your answers?

What do you get by having female friends that you don't with other males? What need have you of them when you have a partner? What do they give you that offsets the danger of the lion cage?

I actually know no man who likes to keep around many female friends (not just acquaintances or work relations) that manages to hold on to a relationship for long. In the internet i see plenty of guys getting hugely defensive of their right to have OSF. 

Deep down i know what is going on. They indulge in what i chose to deny myself due to respect of my relationship. The flirting and being with a woman other than your wife and the added excitement. This is what is going on. 

Yet they come here and parrot the same lies they tell their own wives about their so called opposite sex "friends". That or they have a different definition of friend. As soon as my mind wonder about banging a woman, she stopped being my friend. I don't have my limbic system playing tricks on me over friends. If there is any sort of sexual interest you can't whine about platonic friendship. Because claiming to be platonic with a person you find sexually attractive is total utter bullsh!t. 

Lions are fascinating, but for now i'm happy to look at them behind bars.


----------



## lovelygirl

costa200 said:


> This thread degenerated a bit but now seems back on track so i'm going to add a little food for thought.
> 
> We have here people saying that "i've married for X years with Y OSF and it was never a problem".
> 
> That's totally fine. I equate that to a lion tamer who never got scratched by his cats. He goes into the cage to perform and in his mind he so much better than every other scratched dudes he saw at the yearly lion tamer reunion. He has total control over the situation and firmly believes his cats will never put a nail on him.
> 
> Then young lion tamers to be ask him if they can do this activity and never get scratches. And this lion tamer grins and says that it is perfectly possible because he has been doing this for X years with Y lions and he never got nicked.
> 
> Now, this lion tamer may get lucky and have the skills to continue to have a perfect skin. Does that mean it is likely to be a lion tamer and retire with flawless skin? No, it really doesn't. Probability says they will get scratched, if not worse.
> 
> You guys that are perfectly fine with OSF are these magnificent lion tamers! You're telling the rest of us that it will not happen to you. But there is a question you are not answering. And i'm bloody curious about what the men have to say about this. What makes you get in that cage in the first place? Can you be honest with yourselves in your answers?
> 
> What do you get by having female friends that you don't with other males? What need have you of them when you have a partner? What do they give you that offsets the danger of the lion cage?
> 
> I actually know no man who likes to keep around many female friends (not just acquaintances or work relations) that manages to hold on to a relationship for long. In the internet i see plenty of guys getting hugely defensive of their right to have OSF.
> 
> Deep down i know what is going on. They indulge in what i chose to deny myself due to respect of my relationship. The flirting and being with a woman other than your wife and the added excitement. This is what is going on.
> 
> Yet they come here and parrot the same lies they tell their own wives about their so called opposite sex "friends". That or they have a different definition of friend. *As soon as my mind wonder about banging a woman, she stopped being my friend. *I don't have my limbic system playing tricks on me over friends. If there is any sort of sexual interest you can't whine about platonic friendship. Because claiming to be platonic with a person you find sexually attractive is total utter bullsh!t.
> 
> Lions are fascinating, but for now i'm happy to look at them behind bars.


As much as I agree with your viewpoint, I found myself wondering:
Does your mind think about banging every woman (most of the women) you meet out there? 

It sounds like you're "afraid" to stay near your female colleagues because deep down you know your mind will cross the boundaries and start fantasizing about doing her.

I have to make it clear though. I'm don't belong to either extreme. I'm nor against OSF nor pro them. I just think it depends on the situation/person/lifestyle.


----------



## jaquen

TRy said:


> Entropy was directly responding to a post where Jaquens said "and I'm not including the gay men here either", so Entropy did not bring it up completely out of left field.


Except no, the post Entropy quoted, and took apparent offense to, didn't say anything about "gay men" at all.

Regardless, this is pointless. I appreciate everyone who was able to see why I stepped to this man, and even those who did not. That was last night, I've said my peace, and consider the matter finished.


----------



## RandomDude

costa200 said:


> What do you get by having female friends that you don't with other males?


Same reason why people here post on the ladies lounge for a female perspective, and on the men's clubhouse for a male perspective. It's called having a balanced social circle. Also nor my wife and I discriminate with gender when it comes to an individual's worth as a friend, why should we?

Daily we as human beings will always come in contact with the opposite sex, and hell I can pick up women who are merely acquaintances 10x faster than I can pick up one of my female friends and vice versa for my wife. Doesn't mean that I do or that I should. Besides if an OSF is threatening or just plain disrespectful or if we just don't like 'em, my wife and I both agree and decide on whether we're going to include him/her in our social circle.


----------



## ATC529R

lovelygirl said:


> As much as I agree with your viewpoint, I found myself wondering:
> Does your mind think about banging every woman (most of the women) you meet out there?
> 
> It sounds like you're "afraid" to stay near your female colleagues because deep down you know your mind will cross the boundaries and start fantasizing about doing her.
> 
> I have to make it clear though. I'm don't belong to either extreme. I'm nor against OSF nor pro them. I just think it depends on the situation/person/lifestyle.


I'll chime in on this.

My mind does not think about banging other women. It's not worth the trouble.

ahhhh...here we go with the "afraid" stereotype....

It's not that MY mind would cross those barriers. I don't fantasize about other women....not good for the relationship, and never had the urge. 

women are usually the ones that flirt ......whether they know it or not. and when that window is open I chose not to be near it. like he said.....if you have a partner, why the heck would you need the company of another woman? I steer clear....been there, done that, got the t shirt.

and shame on all the women with so called guy "friends" that send out flirtatious vibes just so they feel special.....


----------



## jaquen

lovelygirl said:


> I don't think females who have more male friends are necessarily mean but I just think they have this fake opinion about themselves that they are superior to other females and think males are better. While it's true that sometimes men are better at having some talks you don't like to have with your female friends..., yet I don't see any reason to have more male friends than females ones. It's a scientific and natural fact that you usually get along better and have more things in common with people of your own sex.


There are a surprising amount of guys out in the world who get along better with women than other men. Typically it roots form not being a "stereotypical" male, and not necessarily connecting with the typical kind of guy talk, and brotivities. These are the kind of men who, when married, are more likely to make their wives the center of their social outlet, and if single they have more female friends than male, or spend a lot of time alone.

But sometimes I wonder, with the men and women who say they get along better with the opposite sex, why not just remain open to the possibility that there are a lot of other SSF out in the world who likewise fall outside of the "stereotype". It just seems that some people don't want to, or know how to, connect with the same sex.


----------



## Thundarr

lovelygirl said:


> As much as I agree with your viewpoint, I found myself wondering:
> Does your mind think about banging every woman (most of the women) you meet out there?
> 
> It sounds like you're "afraid" to stay near your female colleagues because deep down you know your mind will cross the boundaries and start fantasizing about doing her.
> 
> I have to make it clear though. I'm don't belong to either extreme. I'm nor against OSF nor pro them. I just think it depends on the situation/person/lifestyle.


Yes my mind does wonder there some. What I grabbed onto from costa's story is that there are some experts here that will say OSF is not a problem. Yet there other ears hearing the argument and maybe even participating in this thread that will make a mistake later and realize they should have respected the dynamics.

Don't get me wrong, I genuinely feel like I would never cheat on my wife and could have OSFs without issue. But my sense of logic tells me that I could be fooling myself and the stakes are obviously high.


----------



## lovelygirl

ATC529R said:


> It's not that MY mind would cross those barriers. I don't fantasize about other women....not good for the relationship, and never had the urge.
> .


Don't tell me the thought of banging some hot woman out there never crossed your mind while married/in relationship.


----------



## lilith23

Looking back, I've always had more female friends than male friends. But I'm an odd one, I'm not good at socializing and I've always failed to bond with women the way women can naturally bond between them by developing some sort of friendly intimacy. So if there's a group of females, I often am kind of left out.

I ended up having very few friends (I'm also an introvert), and I have a male best friend, but I think that I often hanged out with guys easier, since we have more common interests and I find them funnier to be with (well I was kind of a tomboy when I was younger). But then funny is, the good female friends that I still have are the ones who also share similar common interests like gaming. So it's not really about the gender, it's more about common interests, although unfortunately one gender tends to have some sets of interests (gaming and so on) while the other gender tends to have other sets of interests.
But to be honest, I talk about gaming, technology, movies, shopping, relationship and so on with all my closest friends, whether they are male or female.

But now if you ask if my friendships with the male friends will necessarily become physical sooner or later... Some I do find them attractive, and maybe would have interested in them if I'm single, but some I don't really feel attracted to, single or not. So I believe in pure friendships, that it doesn't have to necessarily turn physical by time.


----------



## jaquen

RandomDude said:


> Same goes with her, which is nice, because sometimes her potential OSF starts getting p-ssed off that I don't like him and starts badmouthing me with my wife and she tells me everything and then watches as I make him run for his life. Fun fun


While my wife and I don't pick and chose one another's friends, the above resonates with me. The quickest way to get cut out of her life is to bad mouth me. My wife is a true lamb, but if you get down on me, she turns into a ferocious lion. One of her female best friends, of 10 years, just suddenly decided to go on an insane attack on me, our relationship, and her to a lesser extent, after my wife told her that we were in a really good place. I confronted her, and she lost her mind. Sent me an incredibly nasty, disgusting email. My wife was ready to cut her right there, but I encouraged her to at least keep the channels open and find out what was going on (because we both liked her). Things only got worse, with the best friend basically making it clear that she believed we would fall apart, I would never marry her, and that she would basically win out in the end; two single sisters, against the world. Which was all super odd considering that I met my now wife a few years before they met. My wife cut her, painful as it was (especially since she was the godmother to her child).

Of course, it turns out that she might have literally been going insane. The woman's mother called my wife a few months after the blow up, terrified, because her daughter had pulled a pair of scissors on her, accused her of always being jealous of her life, and her new weight loss (had gastric bypass), and told her she was going to send her straight to Hell, where she belonged.


----------



## that_girl

My husband gets on better with women. He's not a sports guy, or anything like that. One of his best friends was a gay man (who committed suicide a few years back  ) and a lesbian who was WAY into cars. He just doesn't "get" guy things, unless it's cars. haha.

We did have talks though. I trust him...I don't trust women  I was a woman one :rofl: Well, I was a single woman once. So...I don't trust them and he's seeing why. Lately, he's been hanging out with 2 men at work, but he never goes out at night. I tell him to go have fun, but he said he'd rather be home and work on the car.


----------



## ATC529R

lovelygirl said:


> Don't tell me the thought of banging some hot woman out there never crossed your mind while married/in relationship.


I can tell you that for the last 7 years....my marriage, I have NEVER thought of a "specific" woman...fantasized whatever. NEVER. 

have I gone to the bar pissed, then knowing I could have had a woman, and the went back home- yes, and yes...

other than that, that the worst I've got. I do not have female friends. I don't need them. my mind is not wired their way, and my wife is all the female input i need or can handle.

Have I thought about maybe an ex on occassion...on occassion years ago....but those memories are in the past these days.


----------



## jaquen

Men and women even being able to be friends, in the truest sense, is a relatively new phenomenon.

For the vast majority of human history, across all cultures, all societies, all over the world, men and women have been largely kept separate socially, with rare exceptions.

And yet strict monogamy was still a problem. Why? Because human beings have never needed the excuse of OSF to justify sleeping around.

It's a complete and total fabrication to suggest that OSF are what drives infidelity when infidelity has been raging for as long as we've existed, and yet almost the totality of that history didn't include the modern concept of OSF. The prevalence of OSF has in no way, shape, or form increased infidelity and cheating.

Because people who are prone to cheat, cheat. Even if they lived in a society where men and women aren't expected, or allowed, to mingle socially, one on one, they will still cheat.

Blaming OSF because you fell into an affair is the equivalent of blaming Twinkies for making you fat. Twinkies didn't make you fat, your inability to control yourself made you fat.

Now if you know you have a problem with sugar, than avoid the Twinkies. But don't suppose that your problem is everyone's problem.


----------



## Goldmember357

So it seems the general agreement is do not keep a friend around who is 

1) an ex

2) a past flame , someone in which you both had feelings for one another but never really acted on those feelings.

3) someone who has shown feelings for you and you confide in them when times are tough.

Purely platonic relationships can exist. I just believe they are rare


----------



## Thundarr

RandomDude said:


> Same reason why people here post on the ladies lounge for a female perspective, and on the men's clubhouse for a male perspective. It's called having a balanced social circle. Also nor my wife and I discriminate with gender when it comes to an individual's worth as a friend, why should we?
> 
> Daily we as human beings will always come in contact with the opposite sex, and hell I can pick up women who are merely acquaintances 10x faster than I can pick up one of my female friends and vice versa for my wife. Doesn't mean that I do or that I should. Besides if an OSF is threatening or just plain disrespectful or if we just don't like 'em, my wife and I both agree and decide on whether we're going to include him/her in our social circle.


ahh. I don't know if it's appropriate to pull from another thread. Random, If you take offense then I'll remove comment.

RandomDude, couples like you and your wife (who didn't find TAM) are who I worry about. When you guys were going through troubles that caused your split a while back, I imagine you both felt like the victoms and like the other was being unreasonable. At least that's common. Well your wife had shoulders to cry on and that's when she was vulnerable. To me that's scary and you should feel fortunate that she did not make a mistake (because we are all falible).

Point is, In my humble opinion, there were added risks and temptations added to your struggles if you or your wife went to OSF for emotional support. Temptations that some good people have fallen to.


----------



## jaquen

costa200 said:


> And i'm bloody curious about what the men have to say about this. What makes you get in that cage in the first place? Can you be honest with yourselves in your answers?


Sure can. As a teenager, some women I did get in the cage with in the hopes of getting "scratched". I was a shy, fat kid who liked girls, but had -10 self esteem. I was often friend zoned back then, but if given the chance (because I didn't know how to take the chance) I would definitely have crossed the line.

Then I grew up, started having real relationships with women, and no longer had a problem differentiating between women I was interested in sexually/romantically, and women I was not.

I was never the kind of guy who wanted to chase tail. I was always, always the guy who wanted a single, great love. I felt blessed to be in love, and of singular purpose. It's never been inside of me to have a desire to rock that boat. And so I never have.



costa200 said:


> What do you get by having female friends that you don't with other males? What need have you of them when you have a partner? What do they give you that offsets the danger of the lion cage?


You don't become friends with a sex, you become friends with a person. If I connect with a person, regardless of sex, they're going to be my friend. It has nothing to do with what some other same sex friend, or my wife, can provide. 



costa200 said:


> I actually know no man who likes to keep around many female friends (not just acquaintances or work relations) that manages to hold on to a relationship for long.


And I don't know a single man who hasn't been able to. Not one, and I know hundreds of people.

So I still fail to see your point.



costa200 said:


> Deep down i know what is going on. They indulge in what i chose to deny myself due to respect of my relationship. The flirting and being with a woman other than your wife and the added excitement. This is what is going on.


Nope, this is not what's going on. But because you can't see beyond your own personal issues in this context, it's just easier to believe all men are exactly 



costa200 said:


> Yet they come here and parrot the same lies they tell their own wives about their so called opposite sex "friends". That or they have a different definition of friend. As soon as my mind wonder about banging a woman, she stopped being my friend. I don't have my limbic system playing tricks on me over friends. If there is any sort of sexual interest you can't whine about platonic friendship. Because claiming to be platonic with a person you find sexually attractive is total utter bullsh!t.
> 
> Lions are fascinating, but for now i'm happy to look at them behind bars.


You don't get it. You never will. That's fine, though. You enjoy your friendships, and we'll enjoy ours.

Nobody "wins" this argument.


----------



## that_girl

And what's funny is that I am getting very very close to a female friend right now...for spiritual purposes...and it's very intimate and awakening and raw. 

An EA? Probably by TAMs standards. But...not by mine or my husband's. It's not a sexual bond. It's wayyyy beyond that. The way I connect to some people simply blows my mind. 

Perhaps if I had a more simple mind, I would confuse my feelings for sexual feelings and be confused. But I'm not...because I know how passionate I am about what I believe...so finding other people in similar boats is amazing to me.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> While my wife and I don't pick and chose one another's friends, the above resonates with me. The quickest way to get cut out of her life is to bad mouth me. My wife is a true lamb, but if you get down on me, she turns into a ferocious lion. One of her female best friends, of 10 years, just suddenly decided to go on an insane attack on me, our relationship, and her to a lesser extent, after my wife told her that we were in a really good place. I confronted her, and she lost her mind. Sent me an incredibly nasty, disgusting email. My wife was ready to cut her right there, but I encouraged her to at least keep the channels open and find out what was going on (because we both liked her). Things only got worse, with the best friend basically making it clear that she believed we would fall apart, I would never marry her, and that she would basically win out in the end; two single sisters, against the world. Which was all super odd considering that I met my now wife a few years before they met. My wife cut her, painful as it was (especially since she was the godmother to her child).
> 
> Of course, it turns out that she might have literally been going insane. The woman's mother called my wife a few months after the blow up, terrified, because her daughter had pulled a pair of scissors on her, accused her of always being jealous of her life, and her new weight loss (had gastric bypass), and told her she was going to send her straight to Hell, where she belonged.


You better take this girl seriously. Sounds like a stalker type.


----------



## Cletus

mhg said:


> I agree completely.
> 
> My wife's two best friends, apart from me, are both men. Both of them are married, and their wives have no problem with their friendship with my wife.
> I trust her and both of these men implicitly. I asked her just now whether she had ever had any sexual interest in either of them, and she nearly fell over backwards laughing.
> 
> She is also good friends with her ex husband. He spends Christmas lunch with us, children's birthdays etc, and we all have a bloody good laugh. She describes him as being one of her best friends.
> 
> It would never even occur to me to think she might be attracted to any of them.


Did you ask either of them if they are attracted to her? Not that you'd get an honest answer, being her husband. That is the direction this dynamic usually takes. I'd wager a day's pay that in a candid moment one or both of them would answer yes.


----------



## RandomDude

Thundarr said:


> ahh. I don't know if it's appropriate to pull from another thread. Random, If you take offense then I'll remove comment.
> 
> RandomDude, couples like you and your wife (who didn't find TAM) are who I worry about. When you guys were going through troubles that caused your split a while back, I imagine you both felt like the victoms and like the other was being unreasonable. At least that's common. Well your wife had shoulders to cry on and that's when she was vulnerable. To me that's scary and you should feel fortunate that she did not make a mistake (because we are all falible).
> 
> Point is, In my humble opinion, there were added risks and temptations added to your struggles if you or your wife went to OSF for emotional support. Temptations that some good people have fallen to.


Well, my wife did confide in others, female actually, while I confided in TAM and my male friends. I think it's a kinda given to not confide in OSF during vulnerable times such as this. However, when the relationship is in a stable situation, I still don't see why not.


----------



## lovelygirl

As I've said in a similar thread.. There's a difference between regular/daily OSF and OSF you meet once I a while to catch up with the updates and share old memories. 
I agree with Costa when he says what do you need OSF for when you already have a partner you can share a lot of things with. I see it with my guy friends or with one close guy friend in particular. Despite the fact that from time to time I have sexual thoughts for him, there's not anything in particular that makes me want to meet him every day or several times a week. I don't need him daily because there aren't so many things to talk about ...as I do with my girlfriends when I meet them daily. And because of the gender differences, I find ourselves running out of things to talk about and if I already had a partner I'm sure I'd meet him less often... probably once in a while.

Now if he was my partner things would be much different and we'd have a lot to talk about or things we could do with each other.

On the other hand I agree with Random or Jaquen that OSF are needed for several other reasons that they listed... not to mention that sometimes you can't avoid them because of work/school.

So, I really think r comes down to the frequency of these OSF meet ups and the reason/intention behind it. That's why it's difficult to give a black&white answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> You better take this girl seriously. Sounds like a stalker type.


Oh that was years ago. We haven't fa peep from her since Bush was still in office, and we live a few hundred miles away now.


----------



## jaquen

that_girl said:


> The way I connect to some people simply blows my mind.
> 
> Perhaps if I had a more simple mind, I would confuse my feelings for sexual feelings and be confused. But I'm not...because I know how passionate I am about what I believe...so finding other people in similar boats is amazing to me.


You sound so much like me on this topic it's eerie.

Both my wife, and I, form very deep connections with people. The people in our lives, especially our best friends, are of extraordinary importance to us. They are basically family.


----------



## that_girl

Well, Jaquen...when our website is launched Friday, I'll share it with you.


----------



## jaquen

RandomDude said:


> Well, my wife did confide in others, female actually, while I confided in TAM and my male friends. I think it's a kinda given to not confide in OSF during vulnerable times such as this. However, when the relationship is in a stable situation, I still don't see why not.


I do think this is one of those natural barriers. The handful of women in my life who I would classify as true, real friends, I have never confided in about marital or relationship problems. I've never made a conscious effort not to, it just pans out naturally that way.

But some have confided in me. Then again though, that's just my strength in real life. Most of my friends, regardless of sex, find themselves confiding very deep, personal issues to me. I discovered long ago that if you open yourself up, have a listening ear, and some decent advice, people really gravitate toward that. People just need to know that somebody genuinely cares about their well being, without expecting anything in return, and without judgement. I've lost count of the times friends, and even strangers, have said "I can't believe I told you that".


----------



## that_girl

But yea, I would have a very empty Spirit if I couldn't connect and Love other people. I was dormant for a while and lost the essence of who I am, as this human being I was born into. So....eff that. I know my boundaries. I know what I'm doing. 

To feel Love and feel alive and connected to people and god, or whatever you want to call it, completely transcends thoughts of EAs. Being mindful, but I can't close off any more.

And it feels amazing


----------



## that_girl

jaquen said:


> I've lost count of the times friends, and even strangers, have said "I can't believe I told you that".


Yea. You are my people. HA!


----------



## RandomDude

lovelygirl said:


> On the other hand I agree with Random or Jaquen that OSF are needed for several other reasons that they listed... not to mention that sometimes you can't avoid them because of work/school.
> 
> So, I really think r comes down to the frequency of these OSF meet ups and the reason/intention behind it. That's why it's difficult to give a black&white answer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed

@Jaquen



> I do think this is one of those natural barriers. The handful of women in my life who I would classify as true, real friends, I have never confided in about marital or relationship problems. I've never made a conscious effort not to, it just pans out naturally that way.
> 
> But some have confided in me. Then again though, that's just my strength in real life. Most of my friends, regardless of sex, find themselves confiding very deep, personal issues to me. I discovered long ago that if you open yourself up, have a listening ear, and some decent advice, people really gravitate toward that. People just need to know that somebody genuinely cares about their well being, without expecting anything in return, and without judgement. I've lost count of the times friends, and even strangers, have said "I can't believe I told you that".


YES! Exactly! It's like an unspoken rule really
Aka common sense heh


----------



## Thundarr

RandomDude said:


> Well, my wife did confide in others, female actually, while I confided in TAM and my male friends. *I think it's a kinda given to not confide in OSF during vulnerable times such as this*. However, when the relationship is in a stable situation, I still don't see why not.


You and your wife have good boundaries with your OSF. That explains why it wasn't and likely will not be a problem for you.


----------



## Cletus

I'm moderately well known in my circle of friends for a saying I have:

"My willpower is exercised at the point of purchase, not the point of consumption".

There are those who can buy a box of cookies, place them on the counter, and eat only one. There are plenty of you out there, I freely admit. 

There are those of us who know that it's best not to ever buy the cookies in the first place. We'll behave for a day, maybe, but in the end, it's going to be an orgy of cookie crumbs and guilt. I fall into this category.

Both methods are fine and work for their respective adherents. The problem comes about when someone from category 2 believes that they are in category 1.


----------



## TRy

Thundarr said:


> Don't get me wrong, I genuinely feel like I would never cheat on my wife and could have OSFs without issue. But my sense of logic tells me that I could be fooling myself and the stakes are obviously high.


 That is the point, the stakes are high. All emotional affairs start out as "just friends" until one day they are more than just friends. Although people may be able to control what they do, you cannot control what you feel. And yes people that start to feeling something for someone that is suppose to be just a friend, often fool themselves until it is too late. Also, once the line is crossed from opposite sex just friends to more than that, how is the spouse being cheated on suppose to know?

Statistically the percentage of marriages where at least one member had an affair is staggering, yet everyone that believes in opposite sex friends assures us that their marraige is immune to this possibility. Again, it is a risk reward thing. Is the reward of opposite sex friends worth the increased risk of a destroyed marraige and family with children growing up in a broken home?


----------



## RandomDude

Thundarr said:


> You and your wife have good boundaries with your OSF. That explains why it wasn't and likely will not be a problem for you.


Yet we have horrid boundaries in other ways :rofl:
Heh, oh well, hopefully things will change on that department


----------



## jaquen

lovelygirl said:


> I agree with Costa when he says what do you need OSF for when you already have a partner you can share a lot of things with.


Because my wife can't provide me everything. I don't expect her to anymore. It's such a recent concept that your husband or wife is suppose to provide you everything. My wife and I are different people, with a lot of different interests. 

One of my female friends, for example, loves film, theater, and acting, in a passionate way, like I do. We get together, go to a film, and grab a bite to eat afterward and mostly talk about these things. For many years I would get frustrated that my wife couldn't connect with ease about these topics, which are of vital importance to me. She wasn't disinterested, and she tried, but they aren't her _passions_. Then I realized, deep in the relationship, that I was hurting our relationship by continuing to judge her by criteria she wasn't even made to fulfill. Just coming to that realization, that it's alright to accept the limitations of my relationship, was SO freeing, and made thing so much healthier between us. It's OK that she and I don't connect on all things, and it's OK that I get that connection elsewhere.

The female friend in question, and I, connect better on this interest than any of the men in my life. She has called me one of her best friends (though I don't consider her one of mine), we get along swimmingly, my wife use to call her my "work wife", and I don't find her physically/sexually attractive...at all. 





lovelygirl said:


> I see it with my guy friends or with one close guy friend in particular. Despite the fact that from time to time I have sexual thoughts for him, there's not anything in particular that makes me want to meet him every day or several times a week.


Another natural barrier, I'd say. I definitely don't meet, or talk to, any OSF on a daily, or weekly, basis but my wife. At least right now. I use to chat with another female friend daily, who lived on the other side of the country, when she was going through some very rough times and needed a listening ear, and some fresh perspective. But, in general, the closest friends to me are all male. I think the only woman I would qualify as feeling very close to, other than my wife, is an over 60, obese, actor friend of mine who is also married. Nothing is about to pop off between us, as much as I do love her.

But yes I've had female co-workers that I found attractive, of course. Again, with no real effort, those relationships stayed in check. I have grabbed lunch with women I found attractive, but my interactions are limited, and they don't cross over into my life as true "friends". You can't spend your entire life trying to avoid the other half of the world, at least not in this society. And attraction will happen; it's natural, and normal.

But there is a thousand steps between finding someone attractive, and falling into an affair.

Unless, of course, you're more prone to cheat. In that case, it's best to avoid, avoid, avoid.


----------



## that_girl

Oh that cookie analogy doesn't work for me. :rofl: I could mow through a box of cookies, but I won't be effing my male friends


----------



## Thundarr

lovelygirl said:


> As I've said in a similar thread.. There's a difference between regular/daily OSF and OSF you meet once I a while to catch up with the updates and share old memories.
> I agree with Costa when he says what do you need OSF for when you already have a partner you can share a lot of things with. *I see it with my guy friends or with one close guy friend in particular. Despite the fact that from time to time I have sexual thoughts for him, there's not anything in particular that makes me want to meet him every day or several times a week.* I don't need him daily because there aren't so many things to talk about ...as I do with my girlfriends when I meet them daily. And because of the gender differences, I find ourselves running out of things to talk about and if I already had a partner I'm sure I'd meet him less often... probably once in a while.
> 
> Now if he was my partner things would be much different and we'd have a lot to talk about or things we could do with each other.
> 
> On the other hand I agree with Random or Jaquen that OSF are needed for several other reasons that they listed... not to mention that sometimes you can't avoid them because of work/school.
> 
> So, I really think r comes down to the frequency of these OSF meet ups and the reason/intention behind it. That's why it's difficult to give a black&white answer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Before anti OSF posters jump on this, lovely is not married so her current OSF I don't think apply to the subject. Now lovely I would be interested in hearing your thoughts and boundaries on OSF if you are hypothetically married.


----------



## jaquen

Cletus said:


> I'm moderately well known in my circle of friends for a saying I have:
> 
> "My willpower is exercised at the point of purchase, not the point of consumption".
> 
> There are those who can buy a box of cookies, place them on the counter, and eat only one. There are plenty of you out there, I freely admit.
> 
> There are those of us who know that it's best not to ever buy the cookies in the first place. We'll behave for a day, maybe, but in the end, it's going to be an orgy of cookie crumbs and guilt. I fall into this category.
> 
> Both methods are fine and work for their respective adherents. The problem comes about when someone from category 2 believes that they are in category 1.


Oh this is so, so good.

And put me in category 2...when it comes to sweets! I can abstain from just about anything. I've abstained from sex, I fast regularly, I even once went a whole month without eating anything, and only drinking water...

And yet I have trouble controlling myself around sweets completely. If I abstain, it's fine. But I can't have just one oreo. It's no oreoes, or damn near the whole package! :rofl:


----------



## ATC529R

I don't agree with the general vibe here that the ones who chose not to have these friendships are ...or could be... "cheaters".....


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> And what's funny is that I am getting very very close to a female friend right now...for spiritual purposes...and it's very intimate and awakening and raw.
> 
> An EA? Probably by TAMs standards. But...not by mine or my husband's. It's not a sexual bond. It's wayyyy beyond that. The way I connect to some people simply blows my mind.
> 
> Perhaps if I had a more simple mind, I would confuse my feelings for sexual feelings and be confused. But I'm not...because I know how passionate I am about what I believe...so finding other people in similar boats is amazing to me.
> 
> 
> jaquen said:
> 
> 
> 
> You sound so much like me on this topic it's eerie.
> 
> Both my wife, and I, form very deep connections with people. The people in our lives, especially our best friends, are of extraordinary importance to us. They are basically family.
Click to expand...

You guys keep wanting to associate simple minded with anti OSF mindset. How can you hear an argument if you discredit every source.


----------



## jaquen

TRy said:


> Statistically the percentage of marriages where at least one member had an affair is staggering...



That percentage has always been staggering. Always. 

Cheaters don't need OSF friends to justify cheating. It's a modern myth that they do. It's a modern myth that OSF have created a boom in infidelity. Infidelity has always been a hallmark of monogamy, the dark underbelly.

It might make you feel safer to believe that restricting your spouse of having friends of the opposite sex makes your chances greater. But trust me, if he, or she, is going to cheat, they will cheat. Most spouses, and SO, spend most of their days apart. Plenty of opportunities to connect with potential cheating partners. 

Becoming rabid about avoiding OSF, in an attempt to prevent cheating, is like stocking up on band aids as a staunch for gunshot wounds.


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> You guys keep wanting to associate simple minded with anti OSF mindset. How can you hear an argument if you discredit every source.


I'm really interested how you took a comment I made to that_girl about a commonality we share, completely off topic, and got out of it that I am associating anti-OSFers with simple mindedness, or as an attempt to discredit.

:scratchhead



ATC529R said:


> I don't agree with the general vibe here that the ones who chose not to have these friendships are ...or could be... "cheaters".....


Isn't that the primary argument for being against OSF? The attempt to avoid the potential to cheat?


----------



## lovelygirl

Thundarr said:


> Before anti OSF posters jump on this, lovely is not married so her current OSF I don't think apply to the subject. Now lovely I would be interested in hearing your thoughts and boundaries on OSF if you are hypothetically married.


That's true. I'm not married...but what I was trying to say is that EVEN NOW THAT I'M SINGLE, I dont need this OSF regularly , let alone if I were married. 
I don't think I'd feel the desire to go out with him or open up to him just like I do with my girlfriends. When I was in a relationship I used to do everythin with my ex and rarely did I meet with this OSF. I don't know what things would be like in marriage but if I didn't miss his constant presence while I was in relationship, I guess I'll need him less when married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cletus

jaquen said:


> Oh this is so, so good.
> 
> And put me in category 2...when it comes to sweets! I can abstain from just about anything. I've abstained from sex, I fast regularly, I even once went a whole month without eating anything, and only drinking water...
> 
> And yet I have trouble controlling myself around sweets completely. If I abstain, it's fine. But I can't have just one oreo. It's no oreoes, or damn near the whole package! :rofl:


Now consider that I married a plain, unfrosted sugar cookie, and you'll understand why I take great pains to avoid the oreos - even though it's so tempting sometimes to hold one, sniff it, let the chocolate melt in my hands just a little, maybe slide the two halves apart and give the creamy center just a little flick of the tongue....

Uhhh, what were we talking about again??


----------



## RandomDude

I have to agree with Jaquen there

Lets say I was a cheater, and my wife said "No OSFs", I could still cheat via escorts or a pickup. I still remember 10 years ago when I was in the game, a pickup can take 5 minutes with a total stranger. As for escorts - in Asia alot of married men and women resort to escort services to cheat as well. Cutting off ALL OSFs is not effective when trying to minimise the risk of cheating in my opinion, but that's just my two cents.


----------



## ATC529R

jaquen said:


> That percentage has always been staggering. Always.
> 
> Cheaters don't need OSF friends to justify cheating. It's a modern myth that they do. It's a modern myth that OSF have created a boom in infidelity. Infidelity has always been a hallmark of monogamy, the dark underbelly.
> 
> It might make you feel safer to believe that restricting your spouse of having friends of the opposite sex makes your chances greater. But trust me, if he, or she, is going to cheat, they will cheat. Most spouses, and SO, spend most of their days apart. Plenty of opportunities to connect with potential cheating partners.
> 
> *Becoming rabid about avoiding OSF, in an attempt to prevent cheating, is like stocking up on band aids as a staunch for gunshot wounds*.



this I agree with you about. my wife and I are opposites in this respect...in that she networks constantly and has a lot of business friends....and she NEEDS for us to have friends. truly NEEDS the social thing. but I understand and am not worried etc.

but if she had a friend that was not for professional reasons....someone she was friends with and had coffee or drinks with. I would say something in a minute, or make it a point to meet this person face to face to judge things for myself.

not because I am jealous, but because I would want to see the intentions in HIS eyes.


----------



## ATC529R

jaquen said:


> I'm really interested how you took a comment I made to that_girl about a commonality we share, completely off topic, and got out of it that I am associating anti-OSFers with simple mindedness, or as an attempt to discredit.
> 
> :scratchhead
> 
> 
> 
> *Isn't that the primary argument for being against OSF? The attempt to avoid the potential to cheat*?


maybe to some degree.....but mostly I just don't need to be friends with other women. women are wired emotionally....and I have no need for those conversations.

I dunno, I have just never met a woman I needed to be friends with...and I am trying to think of one......


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> I do think this is one of those natural barriers. The handful of women in my life who I would classify as true, real friends, I have never confided in about marital or relationship problems. I've never made a conscious effort not to, it just pans out naturally that way.
> 
> But some have confided in me. Then again though, that's just my strength in real life. Most of my friends, regardless of sex, find themselves confiding very deep, personal issues to me. I discovered long ago that if you open yourself up, have a listening ear, and some decent advice, people really gravitate toward that. People just need to know that somebody genuinely cares about their well being, without expecting anything in return, and without judgement. I've lost count of the times friends, and even strangers, have said "I can't believe I told you that".


Jurassic Park 1993:
Ian:Gee, the lack of humility before nature that's being displayed here,um...staggers me.

Has it occurred to you that emotional bonds these OSF build when you sharing to their marital woes distracts them from their primary bond with their spouse. I'm sure it's euphoric to your confidence and feels like your helping but this likely is considered inappropriate by some the OSF partners who've shared this with you.


----------



## jaquen

Social context is so important to this debate.

This reminds me of a thread from a few months back where some guy said that he felt that a woman not taking her husband's last name meant that they weren't' really bonded, in the truest sense. A few others, men and women, agreed. On the other hand there were those who said that all cultures don't even practice this tradition, and one woman said that in her circle, academia, it was actually expected for women to NOT take the last name. There was actually peer pressure, within that circle, for women to keep their maiden names, and people who actually chose to were frowned upon.

It's tough for the two sides to agree, because their worlds are so different.

I'm thinking about my life. My chosen profession (well sometimes it feels like it chose me) is all about spending copious amounts of time working intimately with other people, of both sexes. In typical acting training you're going to do a scenes with other women, one on one. This will require you to get together outside of classes and rehearse. You end up spending a lot of time with people of the opposite sex, in close quarters, alone. It's just the norm. Sure some have sex, but friendships do emerge regularly, and are common place. 

I am like the academia poster. If I went to people in my circle and mentioned that I'm not "allowed" to have OSF because my wife disapproves, or I just simply said that the sexes should remain socially segregated, I would be laughed from here to kingdom come. It would seem so foreign, so alien, so absurd in this city, and among this social/professional set. That's just the reality. Even among my non-art based friends, it's just not realistic to avoid OSF. I've only had the classic "When Harry Met Sally" conversation once, and I recall the vast majority of the people in the group, male and female, saying "of course men and women can be friends", followed by playing ribbing, and innuendo of course .

TAM is teaching me so much about how other people live. About the context of their lives, about how others conduct their marriages. If you live in a world where you do not see a lot of men and women mingling as friends, it just might seem perfectly natural to you to put strict limits on these things. I respect that, I do. I understand that my experiences are mine, and mine alone. Even though plenty of anti-OSFers are making it their mission to speak for us all, I will not. But I do want to thank EVERYONE for giving us a peak behind the curtain as to how you live your life. It's all enlightening, and makes for very interesting discussion, debate, and even the occasional argument.


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> Jurassic Park 1993:
> Ian:Gee, the lack of humility before nature that's being displayed here,um...staggers me.
> 
> Has it occurred to you that emotional bonds these OSF build when you sharing to their marital woes distracts them from their primary bond with their spouse. I'm sure it's euphoric to your confidence and feels like your helping but this likely is considered inappropriate by some the OSF partners who've shared this with you.


I have never had an OSF confide in me about their "marital woes". I never once mentioned the marital status of any of the friends.

This is not a chronic occurrence. One specific friend was going through absolute hell. The relationship crumbled around her, and she was grateful to have a listening ear, and somebody who loved, and understood her. I was not the cause of her problems, at all. She wasn't the cause of her problems either. It was all on her man, who had deep issues.

Don't assume because I have some limited experience, that it means I've got a Lucy style therapy desk outside my house, with scores of my female friends dropping buy to ***** about their men. That couldn't be further from the truth.


----------



## ATC529R

jaquen said:


> I have never had an OSF confide in me about their "marital woes".
> 
> This is not a chronic occurrence. One specific friend was going through absolute hell. The relationship crumbled around her, and she was grateful to have a listening ear, and *somebody who loved, and understood her. I was not the cause of her problems, at all. She wasn't the cause of her problems either. *
> 
> Don't assume because I have some limited experience, that it means I've got a Lucy style therapy desk outside my house, with scores of my female friends dropping buy to ***** about their men. That couldn't be further from the truth.


ahhhh... see right there I have a problem with. you are hearing one side of the story and siding with her. I don't know the story...but in general it ALWAYS plays out that way......


----------



## jaquen

Cletus said:


> Now consider that I married a plain, unfrosted sugar cookie, and you'll understand why I take great pains to avoid the oreos - even though it's so tempting sometimes to hold one, sniff it, let the chocolate melt in my hands just a little, maybe slide the two halves apart and give the creamy center just a little flick of the tongue....
> 
> Uhhh, what were we talking about again??


Now consider I, a confessed sugarholic, fell in love with a rich, decadent, triple fudge, moist cake that never depletes, no matter how many bites of it I take?

Now why would I be even tempted to take a lick of an oreo's creamy center, when I've got that waiting at home?


----------



## Coffee Amore

jaquen said:


> That percentage has always been staggering. Always.
> 
> Cheaters don't need OSF friends to justify cheating. It's a modern myth that they do. It's a modern myth that OSF have created a boom in infidelity. Infidelity has always been a hallmark of monogamy, the dark underbelly.
> 
> *It might make you feel safer to believe that restricting your spouse of having friends of the opposite sex makes your chances greater. But trust me, if he, or she, is going to cheat, they will cheat. Most spouses, and SO, spend most of their days apart. Plenty of opportunities to connect with potential cheating partners.
> 
> Becoming rabid about avoiding OSF, in an attempt to prevent cheating, is like stocking up on band aids as a staunch for gunshot wounds. *


:iagree:

The best defense my husband and I have is that we think of ourselves as a couple, a unit, it's us against the world, I'm his girl and he's my guy. That loyalty and bond starts in the mind. That's why we've been together, unbroken and untouched by infidelity, for over 20 years now. That unbreakable bond doesn't start because I put all sorts of restrictions on him out of fear. It's not because he stops me from having OSF ever. Those kinds of restrictions might make one feel safe, but it's not ultimately what's going to keep your marriage safe. Fidelity starts first in the mind. Just as infidelity starts first in the mind. Monogamy is a CHOICE you make EVERYDAY. I expect him to forsake all others and I know cheating is an instant dealbreaker for him. I've seen him cut people entirely out of his life for things they did to him so I know how capable he is of cutting me out if I cheated. And he knows me well enough to know I'd do the same. KNOWING that about us, I'd be an incredible fool to ever let an OSF get anywhere with me. 

None of my OSF have ever made even a move on me. Not even a suggestive joke about my appearance. I've had a colleague once make a move, but he wasn't an OSF, just someone at work. All this talk about how ALL men are just secretly lusting after their OSF makes me laugh. Maybe that happens where you live or maybe that's just you. I don't know. I know I've had some of these OSF for over years and if they truly wanted to say something, they would have. 

You do what works in your marriage. If you think banning OSF is your thing, go for it. I know myself and my husband. I know what has worked and continues to work FOR US. Different strokes for different folks.


----------



## FalconKing

Although it's true that cheaters are going to cheat, not everybody who has an affair goes out looking for one. At lot of them start with an acquaintance that they spend more and more time with. If you are having a problem with your spouse, then confide to your OSF about these issues the seed can be planted with that. I have OSFs. But i'm also single. And the women that I know that are married, I don't really communicate with them unless they are around their husband or if it is to plan a get together we all are having. There have been women I known who are married and wanted to hang out with me. I decline. I just feel like there is nothing you need my private attention for that is a need your husband can't fill. If he isn't feeling that need then maybe that's a problem for you and your husband I'll not be apart of it. Some people have sexual thoughts about OSF. I have. You know what I feel is not a good idea? Drinking alcohol with your OSF. Thousands of people have said that have OSF is harmless until that happens. I guess it's about what you feel is important in your marriage. I think OSF should have very little priority in my marriage and personally don't want a woman that will need to have other men in her life she can "talk to".


----------



## jaquen

ATC529R said:


> ahhhh... see right there I have a problem with. you are hearing one side of the story and siding with her. I don't know the story...but in general it ALWAYS plays out that way......


Of course I'm going to side with her. She's my friend. And even then I didn't villainize the man. In fact, neither did she. She wasn't even b*tching. She was actually trying _like hell_ to keep the relationship afloat, because she loved this man so much. I was the only friend who maintained any objectivity, and didn't bash this man into oblivion. You're assuming she's hitting me up to whine about her sh*tty man, and get me to justify her complaint. That's not the nature of what happened on any level.

As far as the guy? After the breakup he confirmed her POV straight down the line.


----------



## jaquen

ATC529R said:


> not because I am jealous, but because I would want to see the intentions in HIS eyes.


And I don't care about the intentions in _his_ eyes. As I stated earlier, my wife had 'friends' I knew were interested in her. And when their true colors were revealed, she put the necessary brakes on.

Because I trust her. And if there comes a day that this trust is no longer justified, we will be over. I can not spend my life worried about the woman I vowed to love, and trust, completely might lie me one day. When I got married the chance I took, from the get go, was to trust in another person completely. I would never have married if I had the "trust, but verify" mentality. To me, that isn't marriage, or at least marriage in a way I am interested in participating. If she has an affair, emotional or otherwise, that was her choice. And it would be her who destroyed the marriage, not the OSF.


----------



## Cletus

jaquen said:


> Now consider I, a confessed sugarholic, fell in love with a rich, decadent, triple fudge, moist cake that never depletes, no matter how many bites of it I take?
> 
> Now why would I be even tempted to take a lick of an oreo's creamy center, when I've got that waiting at home?


You wouldn't, not for sex.

You would, as previously stated, for other things. 

The only difference is that meeting your unmet needs through a relationship with another woman is socially acceptable, while mine is not.


----------



## jaquen

Cletus said:


> You wouldn't, not for sex.
> 
> You would, as previously stated, for other things.
> 
> The only difference is that meeting your unmet needs through a relationship with another woman is socially acceptable, while mine is not.


I'm not with my woman for sex, as amazing as that is. I was in love with her, and committed to her, and didn't once cheat on her, long before we married, back when we were celibate for _years_.

No sex. Hundreds of miles away. Surrounded by lots of beautiful women. Unmarried. Celibate. Some rough patches.

Still no EAs and no PAs.


----------



## ATC529R

jaquen said:


> And I don't care about the intentions in _his_ eyes. As I stated earlier, my wife had 'friends' I knew were interested in her. And when their true colors were revealed, she put the necessary brakes on.
> 
> Because I trust her. And if there comes a day that this trust is no longer justified, we will be over. I can not spend my life worried about the woman I vowed to love, and trust, completely might lie me one day. When I got married the chance I took, from the get go, was to trust in another person completely. I would never have married if I had the "trust, but verify" mentality. To me, that isn't marriage, or at least marriage in a way I am interested in participating. If she has an affair, emotional or otherwise, that was her choice. And it would be her who destroyed the marriage, not the OSF.



I trust my wife as well. I would not meet the guy because I did not trust her....I would do it because I think she, as are the majority of the people with your thought process, are naive about the intentions of others. IMO

and I would want to save her time and pointless energy on someone who pretends to be friends.


----------



## jaquen

ATC529R said:


> I trust my wife as well. I would not meet the guy because I did not trust her....I would do it because I think she, as are the majority of the people with your thought process, are naive about the intentions of others. IMO
> 
> and I would want to save her time and pointless energy on someone who pretends to be friends.


My wife was, at the time, very naive to their intentions. I flat out told her they had feelings, and she was still naive.

She took the hits, she learned some lessons, and now she's uber savvy about these things.

Lesson learned. I'm not my wife's keeper. There are lessons that she has to learn from experience. Me telling her about their feelings wasn't enough. She needed to find out on her own.


----------



## Cletus

jaquen said:


> I'm not with my woman for sex, as amazing as that is. I was in love with her, and committed to her, and didn't once cheat on her, long before we married, back when we were celibate for _years_.
> 
> No sex. Hundreds of miles away. Surrounded by lots of beautiful women. Unmarried. Celibate. Some rough patches.
> 
> Still no EAs and no PAs.


You're not motivated by sex to cheat. Excellent. Since cheating is primarily defined as a sexual or near-sexual event, you are in no danger. I went celibate for 18 months courting my wife too - some nights sleeping in the same bed.

If an EA or PA was defined as talking about cinema and acting with another woman over coffee, you would have a hard time in the affair department. 

It's all in the definition and to what we are personally susceptible.


----------



## jaquen

Coffee Amore said:


> :iagree:
> 
> The best defense my husband and I have is that we think of ourselves as a couple, a unit, it's us against the world, I'm his girl and he's my guy. That loyalty and bond starts in the mind. That's why we've been together, unbroken and untouched by infidelity, for over 20 years now. That unbreakable bond doesn't start because I put all sorts of restrictions on him out of fear. It's not because he stops me from having OSF ever. Those kinds of restrictions might make one feel safe, but it's not ultimately what's going to keep your marriage safe. Fidelity starts first in the mind. Just as infidelity starts first in the mind. Monogamy is a CHOICE you make EVERYDAY. I expect him to forsake all others and I know cheating is an instant dealbreaker for him. I've seen him cut people entirely out of his life for things they did to him so I know how capable he is of cutting me out if I cheated. And he knows me well enough to know I'd do the same. KNOWING that about us, I'd be an incredible fool to ever let an OSF get anywhere with me.
> 
> None of my OSF have ever made even a move on me. Not even a suggestive joke about my appearance. I've had a colleague once make a move, but he wasn't an OSF, just someone at work. All this talk about how ALL men are just secretly lusting after their OSF makes me laugh. Maybe that happens where you live or maybe that's just you. I don't know. I know I've had some of these OSF for over years and if they truly wanted to say something, they would have.
> 
> You do what works in your marriage. If you think banning OSF is your thing, go for it. I know myself and my husband. I know what has worked and continues to work FOR US. Different strokes for different folks.


So much truth.

And all my OSF have known about my woman. All of them. They have all made comment about how I light up when I talk about her, and how extraordinary it is to see a man gush about their love. I have never sat down with an OSF and just unloaded my relationship issues, nor have I EVER bad mouthed my wife (she's truly the most amazing human being ever, so there isn't anything to really bad mouth). 

There is no inroad for cheating, or an EA. My wife is ever present in all of my friendships, even if she's not physically there.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> I'm really interested how you took a comment I made to that_girl about a commonality we share, completely off topic, and got out of it that I am associating anti-OSFers with simple mindedness, or as an attempt to discredit.
> 
> :scratchhead


Seems obvious. Her comment stated "Perhaps if I had a more simple mind, I would confuse my feelings for sexual feelings and be confused.". Granted a couple of other things too but they've been said in various ways already. 

So you chose that comment to say "wow are think so much alike" paraphrasing. It's not a stretch for me to think you enjoyed her jab.

I don't think you give much credence to the opposing viewpoint so there again it's not out of context for me to think you not only enjoyed the jab but feel the same way that we are simple minded for not thinking like you do. That makes it very much on topic to me.


----------



## jaquen

Cletus said:


> If an EA or PA was defined as talking about cinema and acting with another woman over coffee, you would have a hard time in the affair department.


No, not really. That's one singular woman. If "talking about cinema and acting with another woman over coffee" was our, i.e. my wife and I's, definition of infidelity, than I wouldn't be talking to that woman over coffee.

I mean, really, this is one woman, who I meet up with a handful of times a year. I'd agree with you if I had a gaggle of women, all over the city, who I was desperate to meet up with and talk cinema. Sure, that would be tough.

But giving up this ONE woman, who I meet for a film maybe five times a year, ain't gonna cause me to break out in a sweat. I'd be sorry our interactions had to end, but that would be that. I'd just keep talking about these things with a male friend.

I don't have enough women in my life for this to be a raging problem. The most vital relationships I have are 99% with other men.

Now if hanging with your boys suddenly became synonymous with having an EA, then THAT would be a problem. And, again, thank God that it isn't for us (because it is for some other couples actually)


----------



## ATC529R

jaquen said:


> So much truth.
> 
> And all my OSF have known about my woman. All of them. *They have all made comment about how I light up when I talk about her, and how extraordinary it is to see a man gush about their love.* I have never sat down with an OSF and just unloaded my relationship issues, nor have I EVER bad mouthed my wife (she's truly the most amazing human being ever, so there isn't anything to really bad mouth).
> 
> There is no inroad for cheating, or an EA. My wife is ever present in all of my friendships, even if she's not physically there.


see, then it may be ok. but you are the exception. I would think most people are not always gushing about how madly in love they are.

for me it's a process.....I work (happily) to make my marriage work. I have stuff too complain about....and I sure as heck don't need to be doing that to another woman....especially one who might have marital issues whether stated or unstated


----------



## Thundarr

:iagree: Awesome post. Same for me



jaquen said:


> Social context is so important to this debate.
> 
> This reminds me of a thread from a few months back where some guy said that he felt that a woman not taking her husband's last name meant that they weren't' really bonded, in the truest sense. A few others, men and women, agreed. On the other hand there were those who said that all cultures don't even practice this tradition, and one woman said that in her circle, academia, it was actually expected for women to NOT take the last name. There was actually peer pressure, within that circle, for women to keep their maiden names, and people who actually chose to were frowned upon.
> 
> It's tough for the two sides to agree, because their worlds are so different.
> 
> I'm thinking about my life. My chosen profession (well sometimes it feels like it chose me) is all about spending copious amounts of time working intimately with other people, of both sexes. In typical acting training you're going to do a scenes with other women, one on one. This will require you to get together outside of classes and rehearse. You end up spending a lot of time with people of the opposite sex, in close quarters, alone. It's just the norm. Sure some have sex, but friendships do emerge regularly, and are common place.
> 
> I am like the academia poster. If I went to people in my circle and mentioned that I'm not "allowed" to have OSF because my wife disapproves, or I just simply said that the sexes should remain socially segregated, I would be laughed from here to kingdom come. It would seem so foreign, so alien, so absurd in this city, and among this social/professional set. That's just the reality. Even among my non-art based friends, it's just not realistic to avoid OSF. I've only had the classic "When Harry Met Sally" conversation once, and I recall the vast majority of the people in the group, male and female, saying "of course men and women can be friends", followed by playing ribbing, and innuendo of course .
> 
> TAM is teaching me so much about how other people live. About the context of their lives, about how others conduct their marriages. If you live in a world where you do not see a lot of men and women mingling as friends, it just might seem perfectly natural to you to put strict limits on these things. I respect that, I do. I understand that my experiences are mine, and mine alone. Even though plenty of anti-OSFers are making it their mission to speak for us all, I will not. But I do want to thank EVERYONE for giving us a peak behind the curtain as to how you live your life. It's all enlightening, and makes for very interesting discussion, debate, and even the occasional argument.


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> Seems obvious. Her comment stated "Perhaps if I had a more simple mind, I would confuse my feelings for sexual feelings and be confused.". Granted a couple of other things too but they've been said in various ways already.
> 
> So you chose that comment to say "wow are think so much alike" paraphrasing. It's not a stretch for me to think you enjoyed her jab.


Uh, no. I didn't even recall the jab. I was floored that we felt the exact same way about deep spiritual connections, and then we went on after that post to pontificate about that. There was no volleying back and forth between talk of "simple minded" people.



Thundarr said:


> I don't think you give much credence to the opposing viewpoint so there again it's not out of context for me to think you not only enjoyed the jab but feel the same way that we are simple minded for not thinking like you do. That makes it very much on topic to me.


I have never, on this topic, not once, had a problem with the opposing side. I have said over, and over, and over again that if putting a check on OSF works for a marriage, and both people agree, I respect that fully. 

My issue was, is, and will remain anybody making a suggestion that all men, and all women, are ill equipped for having OSF.

My issue was, is, and will remain anybody saying that we're all built to cheat, and that those of us who enjoy OSF are constantly on the precipice of affairs.

My issue was, is, and will remain anybody saying that people with OSF, especially men, are just lying about wanting to screw all their female friends, and would do so at the drop of a hat.

Those are my issues, the attempt to foist the anti-OSF reality on _everybody_.

I don't think anybody is "simple minded" if they avoid OSF, knowing that it has been, or realistically might be, a problem. I applaud people doing what is best, right, and healthy for _*their *_marriage.

Just don't step to me with declarations that the boundaries you have in place will work in my marriage.

I respect the other side. Very, very little of that respect has been reciprocated.


----------



## FalconKing

jaquen said:


> Now if hanging with your boys suddenly became synonymous with having an EA, then THAT would be a problem. And, again, thank God that it isn't for us (because it is for some other couples actually)


Sad but true. There was a guy posting here who story was about his wife and her walking buddy. I think she went into withdrawal and depression when time with him took her away from that. Whether if it's on purpose or not, I believe most affairs start when people have something missing from their life and they can't find it within themselves or within the scope of a loving relationship with their spouse.


----------



## Cletus

ATC529R said:


> see, then it may be ok. but you are the exception. I would think most people are not always gushing about how madly in love they are.
> 
> for me it's a process.....I work (happily) to make my marriage work. I have stuff too complain about....and I sure as heck don't need to be doing that to another woman....especially one who might have marital issues whether stated or unstated


Yeah, me too. 

Since 3 sigma worth of the population thinks that my wife is unreasonable in her particular take on something, it's way too easy to find a sympathetic ear. Couple that with my complete inability to be circumspect about anything, and you have a volatile mix that on a bad day could lead to an equally bad outcome. 

Is this my personal failing? Sure, but it's shared by no small segment of the population. Hence the cookies stay on the store shelf, out of easy reach.

If sex or emotional closeness isn't your Achilles's heel, then it's something else. And if not, then you have my admiration for your good luck, iron will, or both.


----------



## that_girl

Thundarr said:


> You guys keep wanting to associate simple minded with anti OSF mindset. How can you hear an argument if you discredit every source.


TOTALLY not discrediting. At all. I get it. I see it! I don't make new male friends. I don't usually PM them back when they talk to me here. I get that. It is not needed in my life...just BECAUSE I know myself and I have been in trouble before in past relationships. I don't need to start any shet.

I have ONE male friend. I don't appreciate people telling me that at some point, he and I will get it on  It hasn't happened in 6 years (A year before I met my husband) and it won't happen. 

I don't make NEW male friends. that's lame. There's no reason. Sure, I can connect with people, but there won't be another male in my life than my husband and my friend. My husband gets all the goods first. My friend gets my help with art and work and right now I do listen to him about his heartbreak. I have no desire to eff him.

I have learned over years of working on this aspect, that just because you feel attracted to someone, or feel a connection with someone, does NOT make it sexual. I used to think it did. I used to think if I "liked" someone, then it must mean I want to be with them. That's just not the case.

Love is love to me. I deal with shet all day long. Vibes and emotions and people coming to me to talk. All. day. There will be Love. Doesn't mean I want to take it to a sexual level.


----------



## jaquen

ATC529R said:


> see, then it may be ok. but you are the exception. I would think most people are not always gushing about how madly in love they are.


I constantly gush about my wife. Always have, and I pray God I always will.



ATC529R said:


> for me it's a process.....I work (happily) to make my marriage work. I have stuff too complain about....and I sure as heck don't need to be doing that to another woman....especially one who might have marital issues whether stated or unstated


Honestly, it's tough to even imagine sitting down with an OSF and complaining about my woman. If that started to happen, then yes, I think a problem would be arising.


----------



## that_girl

FalconKing said:


> Sad but true. There was a guy posting here who story was about his wife and her walking buddy. I think she went into withdrawal and depression when time with him took her away from that. Whether if it's on purpose or not, I believe most affairs start when people have something missing from their life and they can't find it within themselves or within the scope of a loving relationship with their spouse.


I recently had a conversation with my husband about this. I am a very spiritual being...I always been...I struggle all the time to remain in that mindset, but it's what makes me heart feel the fullest.

My husband is too! He and I have had amazing conversations about spirituality and our beliefs. We're very connected in that way.

However, he doesn't like to do anything with it. He doesn't want to talk with other people about it, he is uncomfortable with it right now because he's dealing with his own demons. I respect that and admire him for what he's doing lately. However, I need that connection with people. 

I would be very heartbroken to lose my friends. I have been meeting people with like minds and hearts and it's amazing for my growth as a human/soul. I realized how much I NEED that in my life. Like religious people, who need church, etc, I need to be able to express myself and discuss with and talk to other people who believe the same OR can teach me many things.

My friend and I go to yoga and kirtan and meditate together. I would LOVE if my husband came along, but he always says no. He's not ready. That's great...but I am.

So, I agree that these EAs start with a void. But that void isn't usually within the relationship, that void could be within the person. My void was within me. Had nothing to do with my husband. I love him completely...I don't connect to find another man. I connect to feed my soul.


----------



## that_girl

jaquen said:


> I constantly gush about my wife. Always have, and I pray God I always will.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, it's tough to even imagine sitting down with an OSF and complaining about my woman. If that started to happen, then yes, I think a problem would be arising.


Yea, I would think the people on TAM know that I gush about my husband  My friends have never heard me say an ill word about him either. They respect my marriage, and they love me as an individual.


----------



## jaquen

Cletus said:


> Yeah, me too.
> 
> Since 3 sigma worth of the population thinks that my wife is unreasonable in her particular take on something, it's way too easy to find a sympathetic ear. Couple that with my complete inability to be circumspect about anything, and you have a volatile mix that on a bad day could lead to an equally bad outcome.
> 
> Is this my personal failing? Sure, but it's shared by no small segment of the population. Hence the cookies stay on the store shelf, out of easy reach.
> 
> If sex or emotional closeness isn't your Achilles's heel, then it's something else. And if not, then you have my admiration for your good luck, iron will, or both.


This just makes you a smart man, in my book.






Cletus said:


> If sex or emotional closeness isn't your Achilles's heel, then it's something else. And if not, then you have my admiration for your good luck, iron will, or both.


I admit that I do have an "iron will", and a lot of "good luck", on this front. 

My profound, and chronic, weaknesses just lie elsewhere.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

that_girl said:


> My friends have never heard me say an ill word about him either.


A little off topic maybe but I had to tell you this is probably THE SMARTEST thing a married person can do for their relationship. NEVER talk badly about your spouse to your friends or family.


----------



## jaquen

that_girl said:


> I recently had a conversation with my husband about this. I am a very spiritual being...I always been...I struggle all the time to remain in that mindset, but it's what makes me heart feel the fullest.
> 
> My husband is too! He and I have had amazing conversations about spirituality and our beliefs. We're very connected in that way.
> 
> However, he doesn't like to do anything with it. He doesn't want to talk with other people about it, he is uncomfortable with it right now because he's dealing with his own demons. I respect that and admire him for what he's doing lately. However, I need that connection with people.
> 
> I would be very heartbroken to lose my friends. I have been meeting people with like minds and hearts and it's amazing for my growth as a human/soul. I realized how much I NEED that in my life. Like religious people, who need church, etc, I need to be able to express myself and discuss with and talk to other people who believe the same OR can teach me many things.
> 
> My friend and I go to yoga and kirtan and meditate together. I would LOVE if my husband came along, but he always says no. He's not ready. That's great...but I am.
> 
> So, I agree that these EAs start with a void. But that void isn't usually within the relationship, that void could be within the person. My void was within me. Had nothing to do with my husband. I love him completely...I don't connect to find another man. I connect to feed my soul.


You just have no idea how deep this is cutting. You're speaking my language, especially the "void was within me and had nothing to do with my spouse" part.

Thank you for this. So freaking much.


----------



## that_girl

Awww Thundarr! I truly hope you don't think I mean that people who can't have OSF are simple minded.  No no. I was only talking about myself. MY mind. I have been on this path of life and have done many stupid things with a simple mind. The way I looked at Love was one of them. I am not saying I am all wise and shet, no...but I have let go of the stereotypical and societal views of love and made it what it is to me. I don't put myself in a box and I surely don't judge people who can't see things the way I do. Lord knows I can't understand some people sometimes. 

I never meant to insult. At all.


----------



## that_girl

jaquen said:


> You just have no idea how deep this is cutting. You're speaking my language, especially the "void was within me and had nothing to do with my spouse" part.
> 
> Thank you for this. So freaking much.


Before I met my husband, I was very much into my spiritual side. I was a Hare Krishna and practically lived at the temple...reading, talking, chanting...and I was full.

My husband is brilliant in that aspect too, just....not demonstrative about it. But he supports me in it because he has seen how important it is to me. Without it in my life, I am empty...and that makes a shetty wife and mother. This past month, I have been getting back into it and again, feel full. I have met people of both sexes that have blown my mind and I enjoy spending time with them, if even just chatting online or texting.

That's all I meant.


----------



## Cletus

jaquen said:


> This just makes you a smart man, in my book.


No, I am a wise man, of the school of hard knocks.

A smart man would not have had to learn some of these lessons the hard way.


----------



## ATC529R

so, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like jaq and girl NEED to others to fill their void.

I know who I am and don't need others to feed my soul.

no offense, just an observation


----------



## that_girl

One of my closest friends is a lesbian. We had a talk about boundaries practically on day one. It is what it is. I don't ever feel anything from her, but there is Love. 

And I love, FrenchFry, that you like your H's friend. One of my close friends was friends with my husband yearssss before he and I met. She and I talk now-- often....she never talks to him LOL!


----------



## that_girl

ATC529R said:


> so, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like jaq and girl NEED to others to fill their void.
> 
> I know who I am and don't need others to feed my soul.
> 
> no offense, just an observation


Yea, I like to share with people. I like to connect. Sue me.  *shrugs* I am social and love people. You can pick at this all you want. But I know myself. And I like her.


----------



## jaquen

ATC529R said:


> so, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like jaq and girl NEED to others to fill their void.


The "void" I was speaking of has nothing to do with other people. I didn't define the "void" at all. The void I am speaking of is actually something I've discovered can't be filled by any other person.

As far as needing other people? Yes, I do. Because I'm a human being, and human beings are social creatures by design. If I didn't need other people, I wouldn't be married, I would have no friends, and I wouldn't even be here on TAM communicating with you.


----------



## FalconKing

At work I am sometimes have somebody work together with me the entire work day. Some guys read books, or just sit there and zone out. Others will talk the entire time(and it drives me crazy). Some people just like having someone to talk to. It's how they connect, I guess.


----------



## jaquen

FrenchFry said:


> What I get curious about is do any people who have OSF friendship hesitations is if they have any gay friends?


One of my best, and oldest, friends is gay (well he's more shifting toward bisexual as he fell for a woman a couple years ago).

He has never tried to make a move on me. He did, however, admit, for the first time in our entire friendship, that wires got crossed when we were teenagers. See I am very open, emotionally. If I love a person, I tell him. And back then he was still very confused about his sexuality. So recently we reconnected, and he admitted that our closeness did cause him confusion, because he'd never had another male express love. And, of course, that expression meant something different to him back then, during those teen years, than it did to me.

Other than that, I don't have any other close gay friends (that I know of). I find it easier, personally, to connect with women over gay men (or at least the gay men I have met). And this is because a lot of gay men, in my experience, have tended to be a lot more expressive about intention, and a lot less respectful about boundaries.


----------



## Coffee Amore

FrenchFry said:


> Hmm.
> 
> My husband has a female best friend who he works with occasionally. While we dating, I had a couple questions about her but I've become the type who just *sits back* and observes how a person is, so I sat back while I had the opportunity to observe my husband, her and their relationship. Being able to to that and him being 100% open about their friendship allowed me to dispel any snap unease I had about my husband having an OSF and now I feel there is zero danger in his friendship. Plus I really like her as well.
> 
> My husband is also a man who gets along really well with women and because of that has a pretty equal amount of female/male friends. His respect for women is one of the biggest reasons I fell in love with him actually and without that part of his personality I don't know if we'd get along as well.
> 
> At the same time he expresses his feelings for me a lot like Jaquen does for his wife where I am the Holy Grail chocolate cake he's been searching for.  I actually trust him when he says this because he doesn't have to "hide the Oreos," so to speak. So with my husband, because of our relationship, I have no problems with OSFs.
> 
> ***
> 
> What I get curious about is do any people who have OSF friendship hesitations is if they have any gay friends? I can't say for myself that I have any close straight OSFs, but my "sister" and two of my closest friends are lesbians. If you are in any way flexible about your sexuality, how do you feel you are able to maintain any kind of friendships with a SSF either?
> 
> It's the same thing, I think. To have open eyes and clear thoughts and boundaries.



One of my good female friends who is divorced is now dating a woman. She doesn't call herself a lesbian, but she must be at least bi. We don't talk about her sexual orientation. It doesn't matter. It doesn't come up for discussion. She dates who she wants and is happy in a relationship with whom she wants. 

I am NOT flexible about my sexual orientation. I haven't ever looked at this friend as anything other than a friend. She has NEVER given off any vibes about being attracted to me or the other female friend in our group. In fact, when she first said she was dating a woman, I joked to her "You didn't ask me or Lucinda out? What ..we're not attractive enough for you?" :rofl:

It's all about boundaries and awareness. I TOTALLY agree with Scarlet Begonias about not ever bad mouthing one's spouse. Don't vent to OSF. Keep your marital issues to yourself. I was raised that way and I never saw my parents ever talk to others about their marriage so that habit comes naturally to me. Letting others have an inside look at your marriage is a bad move. It's those little things that crack the wall that should exist between a married couple against the world. Don't allow another to build a window into your relationship.


----------



## Thundarr

ATC529R said:


> so, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like jaq and girl NEED to others to fill their void.
> 
> I know who I am and don't need others to feed my soul.
> 
> no offense, just an observation


Now your baiting . You're messing up my "lets play nice" argument.


----------



## Tony55

_*Do all opposite sex friendships become physical sooner or later?*_


No, not *ALL*, but there are some important considerations to take into account:

Whether one of the two people feel a physical or sexual attraction to the other.
And what you consider "friendships".

For the sake of this post, I'll use my definition of a friend. A friend is someone I know well, enjoy their company, speak to often, and physically see often; I usually see my friends about once a week, sometimes more.

I also have friends who I rarely see or talk to, but still consider them to be my friends. I'm going to assume that the OP is not talking about this type of distant friend.


Being friends with someone is sustainable only when neither have a physical/sexual attraction to the other (regardless of gender mixture). If their is a physical/sexual tension coming from either side, then the ability to maintain what I would consider a common friendship of frequent outings, emailing, texting, confiding, etc, is not possible, the constant feelings of attraction will eventually manifest itself in unpredictable ways, that will undermine the spirit of the friendship, and diminish the likelihood of maintaining a normal, healthy, relationship with that friend.

And that's just looking at it from a single persons standpoint, add to the mix that one of them is married, or in a relationship, and you're adding even more dynamics to complicate the concept of "friends" with the opposite sex (or in my broader example, anyone who is sexually attracted to the other person).

At the end of the day, not *ALL *friendships between two people, in which the possibility of sexual tension exists, result in actual physical/sexual interacting, but, if the feeling is mutual between the two people, then the likelihood of it becoming something physical is extremely high if the friendship continues long enough.

T


----------



## costa200

lovelygirl said:


> As much as I agree with your viewpoint, I found myself wondering:
> Does your mind think about banging every woman (most of the women) you meet out there?
> 
> It sounds like you're "afraid" to stay near your female colleagues because deep down you know your mind will cross the boundaries and start fantasizing about doing her.
> 
> I have to make it clear though. I'm don't belong to either extreme. I'm nor against OSF nor pro them. I just think it depends on the situation/person/lifestyle.


I'll clarify. My mind doesn't wander because i honestly don't allow it. I'm the sort of guy who looks beyond physical beauty. Intelligent witty women attract me. You can parade the 10 hottest women you can think of in front of me and i'll notice their physical beauty alright. But they aren't and will never be a threat to my relationship. 

Now if you somehow trick me into situations where i'm forced to interact too much with a nice looking intellectually interesting woman and that yes, is a threat. I know what i'm about very well. I have no need of that sort of trouble. 

My partner knows this. Very well indeed. Because we started this way. Simple conversation and word fighting and teasing that escalated to some light sexual innuendo and me putting some charm on.

I guess my willingness to call her on her typical female silly tricks somehow clicked in her.

And no, i'm not afraid to be near my colleagues... I'm a teacher, how would that work? The barriers i create are not physical. they are mental. I'm as friendly as i can be, but i stick to work and never leave that sphere. I'm basically surrounded by women all day long and they love having me around. I just make sure they don't love it too much.


----------



## costa200

> You don't get it. You never will. That's fine, though. You enjoy your friendships, and we'll enjoy ours.


Oh i get it, believe me, i do... It's because i get it that i see the whole picture. And please don't give that whole "not all men are like that" crap you dish out to your wife or something. 

The reason why humans are on this planet is because 99% of us have a drive to find mates to have sex with. The remaining 1% are fringe asexuals who often have physiological issues. 

Lets make it real. What exactly are you saying? That you never felt sexually attracted to another woman other than your wife?

Or that even being sexually attracted you still call it a "friendship"? 

Which one is it? If you say the first then, excuse me, i'm going to call you a liar. If it's the second then you have a different definition of "friendship" is and this discussion is useless. 

When i refer to "friends" i'm talking about a purely emotional relation that never outranks the relationship i have with my partner. By this definition of friendship there is no place for sexualization of the other person.


----------



## jaquen

Great post Tony!


----------



## jaquen

costa200 said:


> And please don't give that whole "not all men are like that" crap you dish out to your wife or something.


I don't dish out "crap" to my wife. Perhaps that's a hallmark of your interactions with your wife, but that doesn't fly in my marriage. I never tell my wife what I think she wants to hear. And while that's not always pretty, it's always true.

Besides, my wife isn't hear, so this is moot.



costa200 said:


> The reason why humans are on this planet is because 99% of us have a drive to find mates to have sex with. The remaining 1% are fringe asexuals who often have physiological issues.


All men aren't attracted to, or driven to sex up, all women, and vice versa. Not even animals are driven to have sex in this way.



costa200 said:


> That you never felt sexually attracted to another woman other than your wife?


Have I ever, even once, said that I wasn't. This question makes no sense, and has no relevance to this conversation whatsoever. Of course I have been attracted to other women besides my wife.



costa200 said:


> Or that even being sexually attracted you still call it a "friendship"?


Yep, I can find a woman attractive and still be her friend.

I, however, would not be friends with a woman that I have a strong sexual attraction to. For example, I could never be friends with my first love.

I am not strongly sexually attracted to any of my female friends. Even the ones I find physically attractive.

I've had female acquaintances whom I find sexually appealing, and they didn't become close friends.


----------



## Coffee Amore

costa200 said:


> Oh i get it, believe me, i do... It's because i get it that i see the whole picture. And please don't give that whole "not all men are like that" crap you dish out to your wife or something.
> 
> The reason why humans are on this planet is because 99% of us have a drive to find mates to have sex with. The remaining 1% are fringe asexuals who often have physiological issues.
> 
> Lets make it real. What exactly are you saying? That you never felt sexually attracted to another woman other than your wife?
> 
> Or that even being sexually attracted you still call it a "friendship"?
> 
> Which one is it? If you say the first then, excuse me, i'm going to call you a liar. If it's the second then you have a different definition of "friendship" is and this discussion is useless.
> 
> When i refer to "friends" i'm talking about a purely emotional relation that never outranks the relationship i have with my partner. By this definition of friendship there is no place for sexualization of the other person.


People can be attracted to others even if they are married. We're not blind even if we are married. But ACTING on that desire is a whole different thing from having it. I think you're not giving some of us credit for having restraint and morals. 

We are human not because of our passions and instincts, but we are human because we can master and control our passions and instincts. A dog, when it feels thirsty, will drink from the toilet and think nothing of it, no matter what's floating in there. And we're mammals too like that dog, and can indeed become hydrated by doing what the dog does. But we don't. We are capable, and we can put our instincts on hold and wait until we get a glass and pour water into it from the faucet in the kitchen. If your water is shut off or there is a problem with your plumbing, and there is only a drip coming out, do you go thrust your head into the toilet and take a long slow drink? No, right? At least I hope not! :rofl:


----------



## jaquen

There is an attempt by some anti-OSFers, in the ongoing effort to discredit those who enjoy OS friendships (a bizarre and baffling goal), to insinuate that all OSF supporters believe all men and women can be friends with _any_ man or woman.

This is not the case, and nobody has tried to make that argument at all. Just because you believe in OSF does not mean you believe that you can just be friends with every single OS person in the world.

Stop mistaking an ability to have friends with a person who possesses different genitals than you as being stupid, naive, and clueless.

Obviously if we know that there are specific people who pose a problem, or a temptation, we're not going to be playing with fire.


----------



## costa200

> Have I ever, even once, said that I wasn't. This question makes no sense, and has no relevance to this conversation whatsoever.


See, that where you and me differ. You can find your friend sexually attractive and still call her friend. I won't. 

Someone for whom you have sexual attraction AND are emotionally invested in is not a friend in my book. It's a possible romantic interest.




> All men aren't attracted to, or driven to sex up, all women, and vice versa. Not even animals are driven to have sex in this way.


Unless a woman is fugly or extremely intellectually repulsive, then yes, every sexual men will be wanting it if offered. They may refuse out of respect for a relationship, but they would accept it if there was nothing preventing it. 

If you collect a large sample of men and ask them if they would bone a nice looking woman if there was no reason not to, yes they would do it. 



> Yep, I can find a woman attractive and still be her friend.
> 
> I, however, would not be friends with a woman that I have a strong sexual attraction to. For example, I could never be friends with my first love.
> 
> I am not strongly sexually attracted to any of my female friends. Even the ones I find physically attractive.
> 
> I've had female acquaintances whom I find sexually appealing, and they didn't become close friends.


Do i really need to point out the self-contradiction of all of this you wrote here? What you are basically saying is that you can be friends as long as there isn't a real sexual attraction. Thank you very much, this discussion is over.



> I don't dish out "crap" to my wife. Perhaps that's a hallmark of your interactions with your wife, but that doesn't fly in my marriage.


Dude, if you go around telling your wife you're that much different than every other guy, then yes, you're doing it. 

Me? I have no need to dance around silliness with my partner. She is a biology major. She doesn't need me to tell her what a man is and what drives us. She understands men and i love her for it.


----------



## Cletus

costa200 said:


> Me? I have no need to dance around silliness with my partner. She is a biology major. She doesn't need me to tell her what a man is and what drives us. She understands men and i love her for it.


That must make for some great foreplay.

"There you go, thinking with your hypothalamus again."


----------



## TRy

jaquen said:


> Cheaters don't need OSF friends to justify cheating. It's a modern myth that they do.


 It is a myth that all cheaters are born cheaters that go out seeking to cheat. This may be true for serial cheaters, but is not true of most cheaters. Studies show time and again that the vast majority of people that cheat are not serial cheaters and never intended to cheat when they first befriended what would eventually become their affair partner.



jaquen said:


> It might make you feel safer to believe that restricting your spouse of having friends of the opposite sex makes your chances greater. But trust me, if he, or she, is going to cheat, they will cheat. Most spouses, and SO, spend most of their days apart. Plenty of opportunities to connect with potential cheating partners.


 You are right if you are married to a serial cheater that is looking for the opportunity to cheat, but if you are not married to a serial cheater, you are safer if you limit the opportunities for the relationship to developer on an emotional level. Their is a big difference between meeting and interacting with people of the opposite sex and and bonding with them on a personal and emotional level.


----------



## Maneo

Interesting the amount of traffic this thread has generated and how strongly some on either side seem to feel about this.

I think this discussion touches on some basic emotions and core beliefs in people. It is not unrelated to all the discussions elsewhere on here about emotional attachments with others in a marriage and the many, many issues brought to the discussion by others about problems communicating, relating, or just living with another person.

I think in much of this strongly felt discussion there are widely differing meaning for people in words like friendship, relationship and other vague, value laden words. What is friend to one is unfaithfulness to another.

The discussion also seems to touch on the fragile nature of relationships and self and how easily one can feel betrayed or ignored or constrained or trapped in relationships.

Are there any fundamental truths beneath all of this that can be broadly applied? Some seem to feel definitely so. Others argue for truths that allow more options and openness.

There are countless examples to support every argument for or against. That is no help.

In the end can't we all just get along and accept one another's differences and respect one another's boundaries?


----------



## 45188

jaquen said:


> That percentage has always been staggering. Always.
> 
> Cheaters don't need OSF friends to justify cheating. It's a modern myth that they do. It's a modern myth that OSF have created a boom in infidelity. Infidelity has always been a hallmark of monogamy, the dark underbelly.
> 
> It might make you feel safer to believe that restricting your spouse of having friends of the opposite sex makes your chances greater. But trust me, if he, or she, is going to cheat, they will cheat. Most spouses, and SO, spend most of their days apart. Plenty of opportunities to connect with potential cheating partners.
> 
> Becoming rabid about avoiding OSF, in an attempt to prevent cheating, is like stocking up on band aids as a staunch for gunshot wounds.



The percentage has gone way higher since women began working alongside men in the workplace. And most cheaters don't seek it from what I've read. It just happens. They begin intimate projects together, get closer and closer and.. well you know.


----------



## jaquen

costa200 said:


> Unless a woman is fugly or extremely intellectually repulsive, then yes, every sexual men will be wanting it if offered. They may refuse out of respect for a relationship, but they would accept it if there was nothing preventing it.


Nope. My spiritual, and moral, boundaries prevented me from taking up women on offers even when I was unattached.

The reasons that I have control aren't all about being in a relationship. 

And yes, I have always been a "very sexual" person.



costa200 said:


> If you collect a large sample of men and ask them if they would bone a nice looking woman if there was no reason not to, yes they would do it.


Yes, they would.




costa200 said:


> Do i really need to point out the self-contradiction of all of this you wrote here? What you are basically saying is that you can be friends as long as there isn't a real sexual attraction. Thank you very much, this discussion is over.


Except no, the title of this thread is not "Can you be just friends with somebody you have a strong sexual attraction to".

If that's been your criteria, you're in the wrong thread. Perhaps you should start a thread with that topic. I guarantee you the responses would be nearly universally on your side.






costa200 said:


> Dude, if you go around telling your wife you're that much different than every other guy, then yes, you're doing it.


I don't have to "tell" my wife anything. My wife was my best friend long before we got married. She knows me. In some ways she knows me better than I know myself. She knew me before we fell in love. And she knows me too. She knew I was "different" then.

I don't pedal "crap" to my wife. Again, that might be your norm, but that sure as heck isn't mine. 

There is something very odd about you, on this topic. You seem convinced that if others aren't like you, selling fairytales to women, or avoiding them all together, then they are lying.

You've accused me, twice now, of lying to my wife. Even though my wife isn't hear.

When that doesn't work you accuse the men in this thread who disagree with you of lying on this board. For what reason, you've never given.

Every dissenting view you come up against that doesn't fit in your narrow view is now being chalked up to "meh, you're lying".

It's a poor man's debate when the best he can come up with to disagree is "you must be lying cuz I don't agree!!!".


----------



## 45188

What costa is essentially saying is that a man will always have that biological impulse to have sex with attractive women he sees. However, some men are stronger than that. Some men think with their heads and their own walls and boundaries and not their pp's... A small percentage, but still... Some.

They'll probably still want to bang the women, but they won't do it.. Integrity. If this wasn't true, you wouldn't be a big porn advocate Jaq. But the point of the matter is you've said you do fantasize about other women and stuff, but you're still loyal to your wife. Because your integrity and personal choice is stronger than your desire. And that is rare.


----------



## jaquen

TRy said:


> You are right if you are married to a serial cheater that is looking for the opportunity to cheat, but if you are not married to a serial cheater, you are safer if you limit the opportunities for the relationship to developer on an emotional level. Their is a big difference between meeting and interacting with people of the opposite sex and and bonding with them on a personal and emotional level.


So tell me, how does this work. How can you control who your spouse interacts with?

Are you at work with them? At the coffee shop? Are you handcuffed to them 24-7?

And, more importantly, does it ever bother you at all that you feel like you have to not trust your spouse pretty much every single day of your life?


----------



## jaquen

I'm also really tired of the implication that all men believe in sleeping around, if given the chance. It's utterly disrespectful to men who do have spiritual, or moral, convictions that are important to them, regardless of their relationship status.


----------



## Open up now let it all go

My standard of men is also not _that_ low that I suspect the large majority of men will just cheat on their partner if the oppertunity presents itself.


----------



## jaquen

Maneo said:


> There are countless examples to support every argument for or against. That is no help.


Except no, those vehemently opposed to OSF don't believe there are "countless examples" on the other side.

These threads get so heated not because of a difference in view. They get heated because, typically, most of the people against OSF think of those for as naive, blind, idiots, lairs, or all of the above. There is a distinct lack of respect for those who say "yes, I can be friends with members of the opposite sex". It's pervasive across every single one of these threads, which eventually all turn into either a back patting session about the glories of strict boundaries, dire warnings against letting evil OS people taint your marriage, and attacks on the character of those who do have OSF.

One side concedes that OSF can potentially pose a problem. The other side, in most cases, refuses to even acknowledge that there are experiences beyond their own.



Open up now let it all go said:


> My standard of men is also not _that_ low that I suspect the large majority of men will just cheat on their partner if the oppertunity presents itself.


The opportunity to cheat presents itself all the time. If you're halfway decent looking, and going out into the world, opportunities to hook up with others not your spouse/SO are rich, and plentiful.


----------



## Thundarr

I periodically leave TAM and come back. First thing I notice when coming back is that there is a multitude of "she cheated / he cheated" stories (obviously). The next thing I notice is that the VAST MAJORITY of these were not ONS. They were indeed exactly what we are discussing now.

It's difficult for me to see and participate in those threads and then come to a thread like this one and acknowledge OSF are hunky dory. A thread I'm participating in now is about a guy's wife who had an affair with their mutual friend. It's not the anomoly that I'm in that thread. It's what I find in new post over and over again.

He's doing all of the right things and hopefully it will work out for them but look at all of the damage caused.

Now when marriage training classes are part of obtaining the license and when it includes statistical data regarding affairs and how they happen statistically then I'm off the no OSF bandwagon. For now though, it's politically correct to think there are not boundaries and it bites people over and over who did not mean to let it go there.


----------



## NextTimeAround

jaquen said:


> I agree with you on so much, but I didn't buy this crap the first time you sold it, and it's still rotten today.
> 
> You have no idea what a date is if you think a man, and a woman, merely going out together automatically qualifies as a "date".
> 
> *A "date" is set up with the express intention of both parties being open to romance. It's all in intention. *If I go out with a female friend, like I just did two weeks ago, it's no different than if I go out with one of my boys.
> 
> Unless, of course, you're suggesting that men going out together to bond is also "dating".


That might be true in your mind, but does the other person understand that you're meeting with her BUT just as friends or as a work colleague.

My fiance was in a similar situation. He swears his intention was only friendly when he was hanging with his female friend but when he refused to make plans with his "friend" one week before he heard from me (I saw all the text messages) she accused him of leading her on. 

So what's going on here? Is it that my fiance was really being above board with this woman and she was the one who jumped the track? Or was he being dishonest with me?

If people just dropped the whole charade of OSFs, then we wouldn't have to deal with the above scenario to begin with.

And while men may be accused of wanting to jump a female friend's bones whenever he can get the chance, women can be pretty selfish as well when trying to establish an OSF with a man, particularly one who is married. 

ETA: As I have said in other places on this board, some women believe that in befriending a married man, his wife has "nothing to do" with that friendship. And sadly, I have seen many situations in which the man just can't say no.

Entropy is right when discussing how the whole dynamic of EAs can chip away at a marriage. An EA does not have to go PA to rip a marriage apart.


----------



## Open up now let it all go

jaquen said:


> The opportunity to cheat presents itself all the time. If you're halfway decent looking, and going out into the world, opportunities to hook up with others not your spouse/SO are rich, and plentiful.


Well if the oppertunity ever arises I'd like to believe that I'm not going to bite. I cannot think that I would ever do that.


----------



## jaquen

NextTimeAround said:


> That might be true in your mind, but does the other person understand that you're meeting with her BUT just as friends or as a work colleague.
> 
> My fiance was in a similar situation. He swears his intention was only friendly when he was hanging with his female friend but when he refused to make plans with his "friend" one week before he heard from me (I saw all the text messages) she accused him of leading her on.
> 
> So what's going on here? Is it that my fiance was really being above board with this woman and she was the one who jumped the track? Or was he being dishonest with me?
> 
> If people just dropped the whole charade of OSFs, then we wouldn't have to deal with the above scenario to begin with.
> 
> And while men may be accused of wanting to jump a female friend's bones whenever he can get the chance, women can be pretty selfish as well when trying to establish an OSF with a man, particularly one who is married.
> 
> ETA: As I have said in other places on this board, some women believe that in befriending a married man, his wife has "nothing to do" with that friendship. And sadly, I have seen many situations in which the man just can't say no.
> 
> Entropy is right when discussing how the whole dynamic of EAs can chip away at a marriage. An EA does not have to go PA to rip a marriage apart.


 I have never, in my entire life, ended up in a situation where a woman assumed we were on a date, or I made that assumption, while I was in a relationship. If it has happened on her part, she never said.

But I've also been in serious relationships most of my entire adult life, and I've never been out one on one with a woman who didn't hear me talk freely, openly, and glowingly of my woman.

The times I wasn't in a relationship? There still was a distinct difference between grabbing a bite with a friend, and going out on a date in most cases. But there are exceptions. I have been out with women who were friends, but the potential for more was there (including with my wife before we got together), so the lines between date and friends hanging were blurred. But that has never happened when I was actually in a relationship.

I've been in a relationship with my wife ever since I was 20. Hell even before we got together, back when I was still friend zoned with my wife, I couldn't help yapping about her with the other women who were trying to be with me. Two potential relationships were botched because I was brutally honest with them about being in love with this woman, even though we weren't together. I wanted them to know the score straight up, just in case things got serious.

And I agree totally with Entropy on EAs. My wife has made it clear that she'd be far more crushed by an EA than a strictly PA.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> So tell me, how does this work. How can you control who your spouse interacts with?
> 
> Are you at work with them? At the coffee shop? Are you handcuffed to them 24-7?
> 
> And, more importantly, does it ever bother you at all that you feel like you have to not trust your spouse pretty much every single day of your life?


Well you can't. I think you (well I) express that I think it's dangerous and that certain thing I would find inappropriate like one-on-one time that's not due to job or something. If your spouse respects your opinion and wants to do things to make you happy then the problem is solved.


----------



## Maneo

Thundarr said:


> I periodically leave TAM and come back. First thing I notice when coming back is that there is a multitude of "she cheated / he cheated" stories (obviously). The next thing I notice is that the VAST MAJORITY of these were not ONS. They were indeed exactly what we are discussing now.
> 
> It's difficult for me to see and participate in those threads and then come to a thread like this one and acknowledge OSF are hunky dory. A thread I'm participating in now is about a guy's wife who had an affair with their mutual friend. It's not the anomoly that I'm in that thread. It's what I find in new post over and over again.
> 
> He's doing all of the right things and hopefully it will work out for them but look at all of the damage caused.
> 
> Now when marriage training classes are part of obtaining the license and when it includes statistical data regarding affairs and how they happen statistically then I'm off the no OSF bandwagon. For now though, it's politically correct to think there are not boundaries and it bites people over and over who did not mean to let it go there.


Might it be possible that the population of TAM is skewed to those who have experienced or who are threatened or otherwise confused about the extramarital affair that may start as a friendship? And that there is a vast number of people who are in happy, healthy relationships with no problem with other gender friendships who simply aren't members of TAM. 
In other words is TAM representative of the general population or a subset that might skew views and subject matter?
And I am not assuming the majority of TAM members have problem relationships. I see many on here, myself included, who have strong, healthy, happy relationships but have an interest in discussing them.

I think the discrepancy lies in those who assume any other gender relationship eventually leads to some unfaithful action. That is like saying anyone who drinks will become an alcoholic.

It is true anyone who is alcoholic drinks. It is not true anyone who drinks, given enough time will become an alcoholic.

Faulty logic.


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> I periodically leave TAM and come back. First thing I notice when coming back is that there is a multitude of "she cheated / he cheated" stories (obviously). The next thing I notice is that the VAST MAJORITY of these were not ONS. They were indeed exactly what we are discussing now.
> 
> It's difficult for me to see and participate in those threads and then come to a thread like this one and acknowledge OSF are hunky dory.


Except, and you know this, TAM has a huge selection bias. You're hearing from the people who have been burned. Folks are not coming to TAM making posts like "I just LOVE my female friend! We get along great and don't ever have sex!!!". The many people I know who take OSF as a typical, mundane norm would never even have a reason to end up on a message board to talk about this fact.

You also aren't going to get a lot of "My husband is banging hookers" posts either. Why? Because most women don't have a clue that their husbands might be dropping by a sex worker every once in a while.

According to many TAMers, porn is a major cause in divorce. Except no, most studies don't mention porn as even being in the top ten factors for divorce.

TAM is a world made up of mostly hurting people. Most people are here because of a problem in their marriage. That's why the TAMers who do gush about their marriages stand out. This place is so skewed toward pain, and failing marriages, that people like SA, and myself, have been accused of lying about our marriages. We have both heard "stop lying, marriage can't be like that".

We all acknowledge that people can fall into affairs with "friends". But what you will never see on TAM is a large section of the people for whom infidelity, and OSF, aren't a problem. This board, as I learned after I started posting here, is not the place to find success stories.


----------



## 45188

But its not just TAM Jaq.. Check out infidelity statistics. It's ridiculous. 

14 Surprising Facts about Marriage, Affairs & Divorce - iVillage


----------



## Thundarr

Open up now let it all go said:


> My standard of men is also not _that_ low that I suspect the large majority of men will just cheat on their partner if the oppertunity presents itself.


I think I'm a character guy with a history of doing mostly right by people. Made some mistakes, learned from them and all that good stuff.

But I look back to when I was a young man and I believe certain opportunity could have drawn me into an affair but fortunately the perfect storm didn't happen. The point is I didn't know that was the case. I would have vehemently defended my right to have OSFs and would have been offended at the suggestion that I was vulnerable to it.


----------



## Coffee Amore

Maneo said:


> *Might it be possible that the population of TAMN is skewed to those who have experienced or who are threatened or otherwise confused about the extramarital affair that may start as a friendship? And that there is a vast number of people who are in happy, healthy relationships with no problem with other gender friendships who simply aren't members of TAM. *In other words is TAM representative of the general population or a subset that might skew views and subject matter?
> And I am not assuming the majority of TAM members have problem relationships. I see many on here, myself included, who have strong, healthy, happy relationships but have an interest in discussing them.
> 
> I think the discrepancy lies in those who assume any other gender relationship eventually leads to some unfaithful action. THat is like saying anyone who drinks will become an alcoholic.
> 
> It is true anyone who is alcoholic drinks. It is not true anyone who drinks, given enough time will become an alcoholic.
> 
> Faulty logic.



:iagree:

TAM is not representative of most marriages. 

I've seen this question - can people have platonic OSF - asked on a fitness forum I belong to. The answers are much more pro-OSF than on TAM. No surprises there.


----------



## ATC529R

Did I read here that jaq does fantasize about other women?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

jaquen said:


> So tell me, how does this work. How can you control who your spouse interacts with?
> 
> Are you at work with them? At the coffee shop? Are you handcuffed to them 24-7?


 If you reread the post you will see that I clearly stated that "Their is a big difference between meeting and interacting with people of the opposite sex and and bonding with them on a personal and emotional level". In other words my wife regularly interacts with people of the opposite sex and has many male acquaintances that she meets with for various reasons, but she does not befriend them on a personal level or go out with them one on one.

As for your "handcuffed to them 24-7" remark, you have no right to criticize how other people post aggressively to you as long as you make snide comments like that.



jaquen said:


> And, more importantly, does it ever bother you at all that you feel like you have to not trust your spouse pretty much every single day of your life?


 Again with the counter-productive baiting, but I will respond anyway. Your argument sounds great on paper where marraige is all rainbows, unicorns and sunshine. But in the real world both are human, there are ups and downs in a marraige, and a complement from a stranger feels different then the same from your spouse of many years. If you want to imply that you have a superior marraige to me that has no chance at cheating, so be it. My wife and I worked this out together because we unlike you do not want to take a chance on something so important to us. We have agreed that right when we are having issues is the wrong time to be discussing if an opposite sex friend is a factor in those issues, but if your are certain that your marraige will never have any issues I guess this is of no concern to you.

It is all about risk and reward. To me opposite sex friends are like playing Russian Roulette. In Russian Roulette there is only 1 of 6 chambers of a revolver that has a bullet in it. Although when you spin the chambers the odds of it going off are only 1 and 6, the down side of it going off when it is pointed at your head is so bad that no one in there right mind wants to play it.


----------



## jaquen

kipani said:


> But its not just TAM Jaq.. Check out infidelity statistics. It's ridiculous.
> 
> 14 Surprising Facts about Marriage, Affairs & Divorce - iVillage


Nobody here is suggesting infidelity hasn't been high.

Infidelity in human beings is almost as common as lying, and more common than theft. 

Which does nothing but prove my point. Human beings are prone to cheat, regardless of what the socially accepted relationship is at any given time between men and women.

Even if you lock up your spouse, and take away the key, if they want to have an affair, the affair starts in their heart.

While I really applaud those who make active attempts to squelch the chances of affair, I do think it's more symbol than reality. People need to believe that they're keeping their spouse from straying, when the truth is you never can keep your spouse from straying by limiting their access to an entire gender.

You know what keeps it in my pants? I'll tell you:

- My spiritual convictions. These are strong, real, and kept me in line even when I was not in a relationship.

- Chronic adultery in the adults in my family. I've seen the pains of what unfaithfulness can do to a person face to face.

- My woman. Really, she's_ amazing_. I have never met another woman who comes close for me. She helps stave off a hunger for others by being so damn good to me, and for me.

But if she walked in the door today and said "you can't have anymore OSF" that wouldn't work, at all. Because there are plenty of opportunities to cheat, and if I ever want to cheat it won't matter what she said.


----------



## jaquen

ATC529R said:


> Did I read here that jaq does fantasize about other women?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sure do. And my wife is well aware of that. Most of them are made up women in my head, who get to look exactly like I want them to look. 

Anymore questions about my fantasy life?


----------



## TRy

jaquen said:


> Sure do. And my wife is well aware of that. Most of them are made up women in my head, who get to look exactly like I want them to look.


 Although we disagree on OSF, I sure hope no one tries to make an issue of this. It is normal and healthy to do so.


----------



## 45188

I like that Jaq doesn't act on his fantasies though and that he's honest about them. You guys have to give him credit. That hes so completely honest with his wife probably is why she's so secure. I mean a lot of guys are worried about hurting their wives feelings so they make them suspicious of them.. Better to just be honest, even if it hurts their feelings.


----------



## Thundarr

Maneo said:


> Might it be possible that the population of TAMN is skewed to those who have experienced or who are threatened or otherwise confused about the extramarital affair that may start as a friendship? And that there is a vast number of people who are in happy, healthy relationships with no problem with other gender friendships who simply aren't members of TAM.


Here is how skewed the population is in general which is an indicator of the percentage of people these TAM EA/PA represent. Notice more the 50% of men and women admit to cheating. This is just the ones to admit it so my answer is a resounding no that TAM represents more than you like to admit.

Infidelity Facts - Infidelity Statistics

Below are compiled statistics on infidelity and marriage:

Percentage of marriages that end in divorce in America: 53%

Percentage of "arranged marriages" (where parents pick their sons or daughters spouses) that end in divorce: 3%

Medical field(s) with the highest divorce rate: psychiatrists and marriage counselors

Percentage of marriages where one or both spouses admit to infidelity, either physical or emotional: *41%*

Percentage of men who admit to committing infidelity in any relationship they've had:* 57%*

Percentage of women who admit to committing infidelity in any relationship they've had: *54%*

Percentage of men and women who admit to having an affair with a co-worker: *36%*

Percentage of men and women who admit to infidelity on business trips: 36%

Percentage of men and women who admit to infidelity (emotional or physical) with a brother-in-law or sister-in-law: *17%*

Average length of an affair: 2 years

Percentage of marriages that last after an affair has been admitted to or discovered: 31%

Percentage of men who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: *74%*

Percentage of women who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: *68%*


----------



## jaquen

TRy said:


> 24-7" remark, you have no right to criticize how other people post aggressively to you as long as you make snide comments like that.


Are you serious right now? I asked you point blank how you can insure that your spouse doesn't make connections to members of the opposite sex. Unless you are handcuffed to them 24-7, you can not. That's not snide, that's a basic fact.

This makes no sense to me, and I am being honest here TRy. You don't trust your spouse to befriend members of the opposite sex, in case something happens, and yet you trust them to tell you the truth about bonds they do, or do not, have with members of the OS? How is there implicit trust on one hand, and a challenge to that trust on another?

And how would you know, unless you were with them 24-7?



TRy said:


> Again with the counter-productive baiting, but I will respond anyway.



Again, are you serious right now. That's another legit question. Does it indeed ever bother, exhaust, or frustrate you that you feel you can not simply, completely, and totally trust your spouse? Anti-OSFers have chronically stated that you can not, and should not, "blindly" trust a spouse. I would sincerely love to know the answer to this question.

On what planet is that "baiting"?



TRy said:


> Your argument sounds great on paper where marraige is all rainbows, unicorns and sunshine.



Not all, but some rainbows, unicorns, and sunshine sure are damn great in a marriage on at least a semi-regular basis.



TRy said:


> But in the real world both are human, there are ups and downs in a marraige, and a complement from a stranger feels different then the same from your spouse of many years. If you want to imply that you have a superior marraige to me that has no chance at cheating, so be it.


And this is where you're mistaken. I never said that we were impervious to infidelity.

We just can not, and will not, live with the fear of it, or create strict boundaries in an attempt to prevent something that ultimately comes down to personal choice.

If the boundaries work for you, and you're both happy, I applaud that. I always have.



TRy said:


> My wife and I worked this out together because we unlike you do not want to take a chance on something so important to us.


Oh yeah, you're right, neither my wife nor I really care much about our marriage. We just love chancing our love story. It's not important to us at all.




TRy said:


> It is all about risk and reward. To me opposite sex friends are like playing Russian Roulette. In Russian Roulette there is only 1 of 6 chambers of a revolver that has a bullet in it. Although when you spin the chambers the odds of it going off are only 1 and 6, the down side of it going off when it is pointed at your head is so bad that no one in there right mind wants to play it.


Going out into a world where half the population is the other gender, and most people are heterosexual, is a game of Russian Roulette.

I simply believe that if a spouse decides to take the risk, if things have devolved to that point, it won't matter what rules we have in place.

Everybody makes a vow of faithfulness, or damn near close.

But take a look at the statistics Kapini posted above. Despite those vows, said in front of friends, family, and God, folks are still skipping out.

So if people aren't adhering to their original vows, what makes you so sure that they'll stop forming bonds with the OS? Because they said so?

We're all in a blind trust scenario. Some of us just embrace that more. Others of us like to create situations that make us feel we have more control. But ultimately you can't control another human being.


----------



## NextTimeAround

jaquen said:


> I have never, in my entire life, ended up in a situation where a woman assumed we were on a date, or I made that assumption, while I was in a relationship. If it has happened on her part, she never said.
> 
> *But I've also been in serious relationships most of my entire adult life, and I've never been out one on one with a woman who didn't hear me talk freely, openly, and glowingly of my woman.
> *


I'm glad things have worked out well for you, but it's the not the same for everyone.

With my fiancé, his EA knew ALLLLLLLL about me. I can see it in the messages that they exchanged. She knew about our date, our sex life........ when she refused a kiss from him, she then told him that he should drop me because he and I hadn't had sex in a long time.

Actually, I think one of the tools of the trade is to constantly ask about the wife, the SO, to make the husband feel as if he has done nothing wrong because his female"friend" not only knows about the wife, but actively discusses her. It's also a way to find material with which to put the wife down. If my fiancé had not talked about our sex life, then his EA would not have had any ammunition against me.

She was dating another guy herself. And my fiancé said, I guess as way to try to show that she was not all that into him by saying that she told him that the other guy was better in bed than he was.........

And she still has the nerve to accuse HIM of leading HER on.....when a few weeks when he registered that I was turning from him, he needed to do something to shore up his relationship with me.

I think both of them were being selfish at that point. She, as many 20 somethings seem to be doing these days, wanted to build a harem of men (read The Gaggle for further illumination) and he was trying to see if something was going to work out between them while trying to keep me on the line.

What brought me here to TAM was the continued charade that she was "just a friend." But due to my experience with my failed marriage, I have come to accept that there are some women or some situations in which some women fall into in which there is no absolutely no compromise in their behaviour when befriending a man, including a married man and I knew what that meant from prior experience (a failed marriage).

We should also accept that there are many couples out there or even just individuals in relationships who know how damaging these types of relationships are and ensure that their spouse avoids those types of relationships to begin with. I have noticed how some women squelch direct contact with their husbands and do whatever they can to diminish it. I now understand why they do it.

So these couples won't be needing TAM.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> Nobody here is suggesting infidelity hasn't been high.


What you guys suggest is that TAM is skewwed such that we can't take what we see here in regard to OSF gone to EA/PA as useful to this argument. Statistics show that the number of affairs that started as friendship is a huge percentage of the population. Not just TAMERS.


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> Here is how skewed the population is in general which is an indicator of the percentage of people these TAM EA/PA represent. Notice more the 50% of men and women admit to cheating. This is just the ones to admit it so my answer is a resounding no that TAM represents more than you like to admit.
> 
> Infidelity Facts - Infidelity Statistics
> 
> Below are compiled statistics on infidelity and marriage:
> 
> Percentage of marriages that end in divorce in America: 53%
> 
> Percentage of "arranged marriages" (where parents pick their sons or daughters spouses) that end in divorce: 3%
> 
> Medical field(s) with the highest divorce rate: psychiatrists and marriage counselors
> 
> Percentage of marriages where one or both spouses admit to infidelity, either physical or emotional: 41%
> 
> Percentage of men who admit to committing infidelity in any relationship they've had: 57%
> 
> Percentage of women who admit to committing infidelity in any relationship they've had: 54%
> 
> Percentage of men and women who admit to having an affair with a co-worker: 36%
> 
> Percentage of men and women who admit to infidelity on business trips: 36%
> 
> Percentage of men and women who admit to infidelity (emotional or physical) with a brother-in-law or sister-in-law: 17%
> 
> Average length of an affair: 2 years
> 
> Percentage of marriages that last after an affair has been admitted to or discovered: 31%
> 
> Percentage of men who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: 74%
> 
> Percentage of women who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: 68%


We all know infidelity is a problem. Again, infidelity has always been a problem for us. To the point where people do argue if human being are even meant, as whole, to be strictly monogamous.

But this thread is about friends. Do you have any statistics that back up the percentages of unfaithful people who ended up sleeping with somebody they considered strictly a platonic friend?



Thundarr said:


> Medical field(s) with the highest divorce rate: psychiatrists and marriage counselors


Dear God.

:rofl:


----------



## NextTimeAround

jaquen said:


> We all know infidelity is a problem. Again, infidelity has always been a problem for us. To the point where people do argue if human being are even meant, as whole, to be strictly monogamous.
> 
> *But this thread is about friends. Do you have any statistics that back up the percentages of unfaithful people who ended up sleeping with somebody they considered strictly a platonic friend?*



add to that, has your partner ended up sleeping with someone who was originally introduced to you as "just a friend." .... no matter what his or her intention was at the moment that they said it.

This is important because we are now having to deal with 2 situations:
1) where relationship get started due to a sincere platonic /collegial / intention
2) where our partner is thinking that passing a third party off as "just a friend" will facilitate access to that person until they decide what they really want to do.


----------



## Coffee Amore

Thundarr - the percentage of arranged marriages that end in divorce is low not because the two people are blissfully happy, but rather those couples are in societies where divorce is extremely difficult to get (years in court or proving fault) and/or the culture or religion will completely ostracize a divorced person. People who allow their parents to pick their partners are more likely to give in to pressure to remain married. People then stay in very bad marriages. In such cultures, women are often subjugated and don't have a way out of a bad marriage.


----------



## ATC529R

jaquen said:


> Sure do. An my wife is well aware of that. Most of them are made up women in my head, who get to look exactly like I want them to look.
> 
> Anymore questions about my fantasy life?


Just thought I saw someone say that. I would consider that pretty close to cheating. IMO
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen

NextTimeAround said:


> With my fiancé, his EA knew ALLLLLLLL about me. I can see it in the messages that they exchanged. She knew about our date, our sex life........ when she refused a kiss from him, she then told him that he should drop me because he and I hadn't had sex in a long time.
> 
> Actually, I think one of the tools of the trade is to constantly ask about the wife, the SO, to make the husband feel as if he has done nothing wrong because his female"friend" not only knows about the wife, but actively discusses her. It's also a way to find material with which to put the wife down. If my fiancé had not talked about our sex life, then his EA would not have had any ammunition against me.


Not a single woman on planet Earth has heard me b*tch, whine, moan, bad mouth, or complain about my wife. There would be no "ammunition" to use against her. My wife doesn't even have any ammunition, to be honest. I'd have to make stuff up to make her look bad.

It sounds like your husband wasn't constantly gushing all over you. Talking about your spouse is different than fawning over them.

I totally agree, if I was confiding in an OSF about my marital problems, and she was interested in me, that would be a great tool to use against my wife.



NextTimeAround said:


> She was dating another guy herself. And my fiancé said, I guess as way to try to show that she was not all that into him by saying that she told him that the other guy was better in bed than he was.........
> 
> And she still has the nerve to accuse HIM of leading HER on.....when a few weeks when he registered that I was turning from him, he needed to do something to shore up his relationship with me.
> 
> I think both of them were being selfish at that point. She, as many 20 somethings seem to be doing these days, wanted to build a harem of men (read The Gaggle for further illumination) and he was trying to see if something was going to work out between them while trying to keep me on the line.


Good grief! What a ****ing mess. Did he ever confirm your suspicions? 



NextTimeAround said:


> What brought me here to TAM was the continued charade that she was "just a friend." But due to my experience with my failed marriage, I have come to accept that there are some women or some situations in which some women fall into in which there is no absolutely no compromise in their behaviour when befriending a man, including a married man and I knew what that meant from prior experience (a failed marriage).


I totally understand your weariness. I know these things happen, and I'm sorry you've run into this problem more than once.


----------



## jaquen

ATC529R said:


> Just thought I saw someone say that. I would consider that pretty close to cheating. IMO
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And I would not. Neither does my wife.

And that's all that matters.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> We all know infidelity is a problem. Again, infidelity has always been a problem for us. To the point where people do argue if human being are even meant, as whole, to be strictly monogamous.
> 
> But this thread is about friends. Do you have any statistics that back up the percentages of unfaithful people who ended up sleeping with somebody they considered strictly a platonic friend?
> 
> 
> 
> Dear God.
> 
> :rofl:


Yea that's messed up. To be honest I was a little floored at the numbers when I googled this. I was expecting less.

My thoughts are that of the 36% who admit to having an affair with a co-worker and 17% with a brother-in-law or sister-in-law, most would have thought they were friends beforehand. More specific to your question though I don't know how many had intention before hand but my personal belief is the majority did not.

I found the info about 74% of men who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught and 68% of women who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught to be pretty disturbing.


----------



## jaquen

NextTimeAround said:


> add to that, has your partner ended up sleeping with someone who was originally introduced to you as "just a friend." .... no matter what his or her intention was at the moment that they said it.
> 
> This is important because we are now having to deal with 2 situations:
> 1) where relationship get started due to a sincere platonic /collegial / intention
> 2) where our partner is thinking that passing a third party off as "just a friend" will facilitate access to that person until they decide what they really want to do.


Very good distinction, and real food for thought.


----------



## ATC529R

That!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

Coffee Amore said:


> Thundarr - the percentage of arranged marriages that end in divorce is low not because the two people are blissfully happy, but rather those couples are in societies where divorce is extremely difficult to get (years in court or proving fault) and/or the culture or religion will completely ostracize a divorced person. People who allow their parents to pick their partners are more likely to give in to pressure to remain married. People then stay in very bad marriages. In such cultures, women are often subjugated and don't have a way out of a bad marriage.


You trust your analysis on that. I haven't put much thought into it but I'm glad you brought it up because I would have eventually noticed that and been confused as to the dynamics.


----------



## jaquen

Skip Bayless said:


> Most men that swear by having female friends are usually low in sex rank and what I call the Friend Gene. Through my observations I'll say usually these men are usually a non threat to the female species, whether it be short, overweight, metro sexual qualities or have the nice guy gene.
> 
> It's a new age phenomenon. Usually it's the younger generation of men that have been somewhat feminized by today's society. So yes, these men are able to have platonic friendships because they like being friendzoned by women and relate to them better.
> 
> I'm a masculine man. Why would I want to have a female friend? We can't talk about Lebron's lack of clutch gene or Tebow's intangibles and immense clutch gene. I have nothing in common with a female other than to bed her. I only "friend" women that are attractive. Why would I want a female around that is ugly, fat and out of shape?
> 
> Why would a man even want a female friend?
> 
> Do you have the friend gene?....Then answer how you came arrived at this.
> 
> To all the friend gene men out there, please help me understand the importance of a female "friend"? I just don't get it.


Oh look, the Alpha brigade has arrived. Right on schedule.

So manly that you're posting your POV on a pink board, filled with women, dedicated to doing such "feminine" things as talking about your feelings.

Oh yeah, you're a real manly man doing many man things.

:rofl:


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> Yea that's messed up. To be honest I was a little floored at the numbers when I googled this. I was expecting less.
> 
> My thoughts are that of the 36% who admit to having an affair with a co-worker and 17% with a brother-in-law or sister-in-law, most would have thought they were friends beforehand. More specific to your question though I don't know how many had intention before hand but my personal belief is the majority did not.
> 
> I found the info about 74% of men who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught and 68% of women who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught to be pretty disturbing.


I'm not surprised. The numbers are right up there with almost all statistics, and beliefs, about the infidelity rate for humans.


----------



## NextTimeAround

jaquen said:


> Not a single woman on planet Earth has heard me b*tch, whine, moan, bad mouth, or complain about my wife. There would be no "ammunition" to use against her. My wife doesn't even have any ammunition, to be honest. I'd have to make stuff up to make her look bad.
> 
> It sounds like your husband wasn't constantly gushing all over you. Talking about your spouse is different than fawning over them.


As they say in job interviewing even a strength can be morphed into a weakness. 

It doesn't appear to me that my fiancé was complaining that we weren't having enough sex. But since we were seeing each other less due to his seeing her more during that period, we weren't having sex. She picked up on that and used that as a reason for dropping me.

Imagine if you had said that your wife is such a great cook. She fixes dinner 6 to 7 times a week. She's so good at it, you wish that she would do it even more often. A barracuda would pick up on this and say at a pivotal moment, yeah, look at that, she doesn't even cook for you often enough.


----------



## RClawson

I wish I just had a standard answer to cut and past for all of these posts. The facts for me: Dozens of female friends for decades. Never ever once have I thought about pursuing them. Never ever once has one pursued me.

My wife knows all of them and knows if I ever tried anything she would be getting a call pronto. I love these women. Many are mentors and many just good friends. They have been a blessing in my life.


----------



## jaquen

NextTimeAround said:


> Imagine if you had said that your wife is such a great cook. She fixes dinner 6 to 7 times a week. She's so good at it, you wish that she would do it even more often. A barracuda would pick up on this and say at a pivotal moment, yeah, look at that, she doesn't even cook for you often enough.


Oh yeah, I know the tactics. I had an old friend back in the day who was in the "quasi" stage between friends, and potentially more. We were close. My wife was already my best friend, but this was around the time I started to really fall madly in love with her. Even though me and my friend never crossed the line, despite the "will we/won't we" tension in the air, she did find ways to try and discredit my wife, back before she was my wife, or even my girlfriend.

I could go on about the things I liked, but she'd find a way to insert "concern" about certain aspects. "Well you guys seem to have a lot of differences...", "I'm not sure she's your intellectual equal...", "Does she really get you, the real you...". And mind you these were legit concerns at the time, because my wife was very different from me, and she definitely was more along the lines of the kind of woman who was my "type"; strong, bold, savvy, and tied to the entertainment world. She would have made a great business wife.

I would just be thinking "Does she really think this is going to work...". But people hear what they want to hear.


----------



## lovelygirl

jaquen said:


> *Yep, I can find a woman attractive and still be her friend.*
> .


I believe this.
In your job you find sooooo many attractive women, every single day that you get used to it and they don't impress you anymore [in a sexual way that is].
It's like working in the fashion industry. You are able to meet hot single ladies but if you've been working for a very long time there then you can manage your sexual urge pretty fine.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

that_girl said:


> I recently had a conversation with my husband about this. I am a very spiritual being...I always been...I struggle all the time to remain in that mindset, but it's what makes me heart feel the fullest.
> 
> My husband is too! He and I have had amazing conversations about spirituality and our beliefs. We're very connected in that way.
> 
> However, he doesn't like to do anything with it. He doesn't want to talk with other people about it, he is uncomfortable with it right now because he's dealing with his own demons. I respect that and admire him for what he's doing lately. However, I need that connection with people.
> 
> I would be very heartbroken to lose my friends. I have been meeting people with like minds and hearts and it's amazing for my growth as a human/soul. I realized how much I NEED that in my life. Like religious people, who need church, etc, I need to be able to express myself and discuss with and talk to other people who believe the same OR can teach me many things.
> 
> My friend and I go to yoga and kirtan and meditate together. I would LOVE if my husband came along, but he always says no. He's not ready. That's great...but I am.
> 
> So, I agree that these EAs start with a void. But that void isn't usually within the relationship, that void could be within the person. My void was within me. Had nothing to do with my husband. I love him completely...I don't connect to find another man. I connect to feed my soul.


I don't see anything wrong with this.... I am probably like this also...there have been certain people who come & go in our lives that we just feel a connection... I've met a variety along my path...there for a "season"...to enrich, to inspire...they have been women and some Men....and I didn't have any EA's /PA's with any of them. 



jaquen said:


> There are a surprising amount of guys out in the world who get along better with women than other men. Typically* it roots form not being a "stereotypical" male, and not necessarily connecting with the typical kind of guy talk, and brotivities.* *These are the kind of men who, when married, are more likely to make their wives the center of their social outlet, *and if single they have more female friends than male, or spend a lot of time alone.





> I was never the kind of guy who wanted to chase tail. I was always, always the guy who wanted a single, great love. I felt blessed to be in love, and of singular purpose. It's never been inside of me to have a desire to rock that boat. And so I never have.


Just saying...These 2 posts describe my husband - also never into sports (LOVE this about him!)...I am the center of his world ..and our children (so grateful he *is* this way!)...I can't say he hung with women though -but he was a bit of a loner. Never the type to NEED "buddy time" / male bonding ... he could take that or leave it. 



jaquen said:


> But some have confided in me. Then again though, that's just my strength in real life. Most of my friends, regardless of sex, find themselves confiding very deep, personal issues to me. I discovered long ago that if you open yourself up, have a listening ear, and some decent advice, people really gravitate toward that. People just need to know that somebody genuinely cares about their well being, without expecting anything in return, and without judgement. I've lost count of the times friends, and even strangers, have said "I can't believe I told you that".


 I'm the same way. It's never been a problem for my husband. He doesn't try to put me into a box, or on a leash in this area. Another reason I love him, he admires me for who I am, what my gifts are, and I'd say communication is one of them. I once volunteered for a HOTLINE for people to call in with their problems, it was called "Contact Ears"... I very much enjoyed that experience....people have always opened up to me ...I am approachable & enjoy such things. IF this makes me a bad wife..... my husband would disagree. 

Though 1 time my Aunt & STBX kept calling me, I should have put my foot down on that one.... we ended up getting an unlisted phone # ~ too much drama... It was awkward...as we were close with them both, but you can't straddle the fence during a divorce & custody battle... Live & learn. 

Unlike Jaquen though, I/we don't get out too much...we enjoy just hanging alone & with the kids more than we spend time with friends anyway. 



Goldmember357 said:


> So it seems the general agreement is do not keep a friend around who is
> 
> *1)* an ex
> 
> *2)* a past flame , someone in which you both had feelings for one another but never really acted on those feelings.
> 
> *3)* someone who has shown feelings for you and you confide in them when times are tough.
> 
> Purely platonic relationships can exist. I just believe they are rare


 1 & 2 is null & void for us.... 

#3 ....I can share a story ....in regards to us... A guy friend had feelings for me - overt compliments in regards to me/ our marriage ... 

A few yrs ago...GF got a group of us together....old friends from High school....Bonfires his house...eventually our house.... Guy friend recently divorced.....some issues with the women he was meeting (some awfully funny stories there)....

He was a pretty open guy...maybe too much... was telling us all about his struggles... asking us how we all met etc....he was impressed with how long we've been together (at that time 27 yrs total)... how many kids......

One could just tell he was the Hopeless Romantic type, he even admitted he is in love with being in love . ..... I ended up fixing him up with one of my GF's trying to help him find love ....... he started calling me about her (he really liked her but found her a little nuts)...I found myself in the middle ....as she was calling me about him too...they had to work that out -without me, ya know

Now some of the things he said to me on the phone during one of these conversations came around to him comparing ME with the women he was meeting...they were "over the top" .....let's just say...he let me know if I was single...he'd be at my door... 

No, he shouldn't have said those things to me -even if he felt them...I agree.... I didn't get rude / hang up/ though I did tell him he shouldn't be talking like that. 

Like a few other posts here....from Jaquen, Thatgirl, ScarletB... *we need to PRAISE our spouses before others...let our union shine..*. *this I have always done*...I've never had anything bad to say about my husband, he's amazing... Always in this man's presence also... we sat close, we interacted with 's.... 

Because of how we ARE, a free flowing spirit between us....this does show before others - including him....he said this about us (in our presence -to our GF)......."*I don't think I could live a Second lifetime and find a love like that*". 

That was very touching!! We'll never forget that comment, I can vouch...we both feel this way... so if our friends see it, this speaks. 

Another time he made a big hoopla asking how many yrs we were married again & said he was blown away -cause he watched my husband checking me out as I walked away from them one night...he was saying ''Who does that!" .... So some of his own comments blessed US... NOT trying to divide us. 

He could see our marriage was Unpenetratable...as it should be. 

Am I sorry we got together & had a few Bonfires with an old group of School mates .... NO ~ I am not. DO I feel I mishandled that situation because this man - could have been FISHING for more... No, our marriage was never threatened...my husband didn't feel I did anything wrong either. 

For us... Yes...we've made some mistakes in our past, but relationships with outsiders/ friendships were never one of them... ME getting caught up in MOMMY mode..putting him on the back burner was the biggest !! Those are my regrets..and inhibitions. 

This guy friend....he did move on...as it needed to be. 



kipani said:


> What costa is essentially saying is that a man will always have that biological impulse to have sex with attractive women he sees. However, some men are stronger than that. *Some men think with their heads and their own walls and boundaries and not their pp's... A small percentage, but still... Some*.


 My husband has always been in this smaller %. 



> They'll probably still want to bang the women, but they won't do it.. Integrity. If this wasn't true, you wouldn't be a big porn advocate Jaq. But the point of the matter is you've said you do fantasize about other women and stuff, but you're still loyal to your wife. Because your integrity and personal choice is stronger than your desire. And that is rare.


I know what goes through my husband's head when he looks at other women... we've had that discussion , it's pretty funny.... he looks, she's







....and he says to himself ..."I love my wife... STD's... I love my wife...STD's".... and the fleeting thrill is over. He still says he'd rather look... but would he want, his tongue hanging out - ready to pounce... Never.


----------



## Cletus

jaquen said:


> Except, and you know this, TAM has a huge selection bias. You're hearing from the people who have been burned. Folks are not coming to TAM making posts like "I just LOVE my female friend! We get along great and don't ever have sex!!!". The many people I know who take OSF as a typical, mundane norm would never even have a reason to end up on a message board to talk about this fact.


Did you just disprove your own existence?


“The argument goes something like this: ‘I refuse to prove that I exist,’ says God, ‘for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.’

“‘But,’ says Man, ‘The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn’t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don’t. QED.’

“‘Oh dear,’ says God, ‘I hadn’t thought of that,’ and promptly vanished in a puff of logic.


----------



## Cletus

TRy said:


> Although we disagree on OSF, I sure hope no one tries to make an issue of this. It is normal and healthy to do so.


Careful, don't go to the "Confessions of a porn hater" thread, where you will find that it is not viewed so kindly.


----------



## krismimo

Oh my.....


----------



## jaquen

Skip Bayless said:


> Well, sorry ma'am, I'm color blind. I don't recognize pink and other girly colors. I thought it was white. So is this a woman's only site? I thought it was for both. But you are right. I come from an alpha point of view. I just don't see the point in opposite sex friends. The guys I knew that had them, women thought they were the marriage type. A nice guy that women just talked to.
> 
> I guess for women like yourself, its much easier to be friends with a guy.


You're so right.

I just wish I could get rid of this pesky c*ck dangling between my legs. It sure makes it tough to be a "woman like myself".


----------



## krismimo

Hey Hey Cmon Maverick and Iceman cmon guys this is not the volley ball scene from Top Gun. Put your guns away and get back to the subject at hand...


----------



## krismimo

Besides everyone knows I'm more "manly" than the both of you I drift in my sleep. Steve Mcqueen is my hero, and I chew tobacco as a hobbie...


----------



## ATC529R

Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maneo

Skip Bayless said:


> Most men that swear by having female friends are usually low in sex rank and what I call the Friend Gene. Through my observations I'll say usually these men are usually a non threat to the female species, whether it be short, overweight, metro sexual qualities or have the nice guy gene.
> 
> It's a new age phenomenon. Usually it's the younger generation of men that have been somewhat feminized by today's society. So yes, these men are able to have platonic friendships because they like being friendzoned by women and relate to them better.
> 
> I'm a masculine man. Why would I want to have a female friend? We can't talk about Lebron's lack of clutch gene or Tebow's intangibles and immense clutch gene. I have nothing in common with a female other than to bed her. I only "friend" women that are attractive. Why would I want a female around that is ugly, fat and out of shape?
> 
> Why would a man even want a female friend?
> 
> Do you have the friend gene?....Then answer how you came arrived at this.
> 
> To all the friend gene men out there, please help me understand the importance of a female "friend"? I just don't get it.


You have *nothing* in common with a female other than *to bed* her? 

And you only "friend" women who are *attractive*?

And for good measure you add that the younger generation of men have been *feminized* by today's society?

What society are you living in? I'm 61 and have friends of every size, shape and appearance of both genders; have a healthy marriage which is the only woman I have a desire to bed; and enjoy John Wayne movies and football as much as the other guy but I don't seem to inhabit the same century as you in regards to relationships between men and women.


----------



## mhg's-wife

lovelygirl said:


> I didn't say women like you are strange or unnatural.
> You just underestimate the female creatures _or _you're simply jealous of the fact that you can't attract male attention when you're with a group of girls..., so you decide to move into a group of guys to get the missing attention by trying to fit in until you get used to their talks and viewpoints.
> 
> The way you talk about females and portray them as some brainless living people who only talk about fashion/handbags/make up ....shows that you lack feminine aspects in your personality. *This is not necessarily a bad thing. I can understand, some girls are more girly and some are less....and there's NOTHING wrong with either type..*
> BUT saying that they are brainless and fashion is the only thing they talk about is not fair and certainly not true.


On one point here I will agree with you - I definitely lack some female aspects in my personality. I was raised with 8 older brothers, no sisters, no aunts, only a bunch of uncles. My mother, grandmother and myself were the only females in our entire extended family until I was about 18. So yes, I am definitely not a girly girl. For my husband, yes, but not in general.
I certainly don't think women are brainless, and I didn't say that. I said it *bores me brainless* to talk about girly things.
I also didn't say it was the ONLY thing they talk about. 
I have one good female friend, who happens to be the wife of one of my male friends.
We talk about all sorts of stuff, but as soon as she goes onto fashion/shoes/perfume mode, I zone out. She just laughs and says, I'll get hubby so you can talk about cows!

As for me being jealous of other women, no. The point is, I don't WANT to attract male attention. I don't NEED to. I have a husband that I adore and is everything to me. I have male friends because I can talk to them about the things I'm interested in, and they don't treat me like a woman. I'm a mate, a fellow farmer.

I don't envy other women at all. 
To say I'm jealous and then move into a group of men (two!) to get attention, to get used to their viewpoints etc, is a crock.
I don't TRY to fit in, I just DO fit in. 

Maybe I'm even stranger than I thought.
Certainly starting to sound that way.


----------



## jaquen

SimplyAmorous said:


> Just saying...These 2 posts describe my husband - also never into sports (LOVE this about him!)...


I got into sports way later than a lot of guys. My wife use to love that I didn't watch professional sports. Now? Whenever I'm in the TV room yelling my head off at a Giant's came, if she comes it, she just cuts me a look. It's so ****ing hilarious. She thought she'd escaped the typical football boyfriend/husband, and he arrived after she assumed she was safe and sound.



SimplyAmorous said:


> I very much enjoyed that experience....people have always opened up to me ...I am approachable & enjoy such things. IF this makes me a bad wife..... my husband would disagree.


Very good point, though I'm not sure you meant to make it.

You would be a terrible wife...to a different kind of man. I know a lot of women would loathe being married to me, with my unusual ways, blunt honesty, and refusal to be shackled or boxed. 

Our spouses adore us because we married the right people. Perhaps if we'd chosen differently we'd be with people who just despise us. Call it luck, call it blessings, but whatever you call it, I'm glad it is.

I think it's awesome when I see two people who just work. Sometimes you can pinpoint why they work, but sometimes it's something elusive. Maybe even they don't fully get it? But two people who know when they have it, that "click", that "it". It's a true miracle IMO.


----------



## jaquen

mhg's-wife said:


> Maybe I'm even stranger than I thought.
> Certainly starting to sound that way.


This place never fails to teach you that yes, you indeed are stranger than you thought.

According to TAM at least.


----------



## that_girl

ATC529R said:


> Did I read here that jaq does fantasize about other women?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You just love trying to cause trouble. Enough, thanks.


----------



## that_girl

jaquen said:


> This place never fails to teach you that yes, you indeed are stranger than you thought.
> 
> According to TAM at least.


It's a good thing I don't talk about Spirit cleansing and Karma clearing


----------



## that_girl

So basically, do what you feel is right and what you discuss with your mate after making boundaries for the relationship, and then stick to those boundaries.

Good. Glad we cleared that up.

Damn.


----------



## NextTimeAround

that_girl said:


> So basically, do what you feel is right and what you discuss with your mate after making boundaries for the relationship, and then stick to those boundaries.
> 
> Good. Glad we cleared that up.
> 
> Damn.


Or before you get legally hitched, find someone who naturally observes the same boundaries that you do.......


----------



## that_girl

NextTimeAround said:


> Or before you get legally hitched, find someone who naturally observes the same boundaries that you do.......


For sure!! That's the best. But, life is long and people change. Gotta keep talking about stuff.


----------



## jaquen

NextTimeAround said:


> Or before you get legally hitched, find someone who naturally observes the same boundaries that you do.......


Isn't it amazing how many people, still, don't follow this simple rule?


----------



## that_girl

jaquen said:


> Isn't it amazing how many people, still, don't follow this simple rule?


But many people do and get the script flipped on them down the road. Which is what happens...it's Life. Sooo just keep talking.


----------



## lovelygirl

mhg's-wife said:


> Maybe I'm even stranger than I thought.
> Certainly starting to sound that way.


There's nothing strange or unnatural (I REPEAT) in what you say or do but I always wonder why some women would prefer men's friendship over the female's one.


----------



## that_girl

lovelygirl said:


> There's nothing strange or unnatural (I REPEAT) in what you say or do but I always wonder why some women would prefer men's friendship over the female's one.


For me, when I only hung out with men was because I couldn't trust women. All of my close female friends (and I mean ALL) from ages 16 to 24 screwed me over royally, with my boyfriends or exes. Yes, the men were jerks too BUT I have a code with my female friends and that's number one: NO EXES. If you steal my bf, you are not my friend.

SO...I took a hiatus from women for a while. Then I met Sequoia and she gave me faith in females again. Now, I have so many female friends that I trust and that follow my same codes  It works.

But that's just why I hung out with guys for a while. Oh, and I couldn't have a conversation about clothes for 2 hours  :rofl:


----------



## jaquen

that_girl said:


> But many people do and get the script flipped on them down the road. Which is what happens...it's Life. Sooo just keep talking.


Oh yeah, folks do shift. I know I have with time. 

I just mean the many people who walk in from day one having not discussed some really rudimentary, very important things. 

I remember a friend of my wife's was getting married. Their church required them to go through pre-martial counseling before they'd perform the ceremony. He'd come back from each session bursting with revelation, so floored at the things they'd learned about each other.

My wife would recollect their conversations, and both of us were just bewildered. Because these major revelations were stuff that we talked about all the time, and assumed was common in relationships. Afterall these people, at that point, had been together about 7 or 8 years, even longer than we had been together romantically.

We saw similar from others as friends continued getting married. We then realized that a lot of people get married without even touching on some extremely important issues.


----------



## 45188

Jaq, what kinda issues do they talk about? I wonder if I can talk to my BF about them.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jaquen said:


> I got into sports way later than a lot of guys. My wife use to love that I didn't watch professional sports. Now? Whenever I'm in the TV room yelling my head off at a Giant's came, if she comes it, she just cuts me a look. It's so ****ing hilarious. She thought she'd escaped the typical football boyfriend/husband, and he arrived after she assumed she was safe and sound.


 I'm not worried this will happen to me anytime soon. Your poor wife! Just kidding...



> Very good point, though I'm not sure you meant to make it.
> 
> *You would be a terrible wife...to a different kind of man*. I know a lot of women would loathe being married to me, with my unusual ways, blunt honesty, and refusal to be shackled or boxed.


 I agree with you 110% on this







In fact I felt like saying this about 10 times on this thread but kept my mouth shut. I am so very grateful my husband IS the way he is.. ... This forum has opened my eyes in many ways I was not aware - to what other men are really like ~ that have had me grabbing him when he reached the door with such thankfulness ~ realizing just how perfectly matched we are. 

I also know I would be a handful for a lot of men. Mine can handle me...and very well. And Him, he'd be too passive for most women... not Alpha enough to keep them entertained, not mysterious enough... but we truly do appreciate the gifts we have & what we bring to each other. 

And I'm like you Jaquen ..I can be BLUNT....I can not stand when someone is sugar coating stuff with me, trying to spare my feelings. Keep it REAL ..I can handle it. I'll get up off the floor if you knock me down....and I won't even hold it against you, I'll thank you ! 



> Our spouses adore us because we married the right people. Perhaps if we'd chosen differently we'd be with people who just despise us. Call it luck, call it blessings, but whatever you call it, I'm glad it is.


 Had I married someone who couldn't stand who I was, and wanted to change everything about me... I pretty much know I'd be a divorce statistic, cause I wouldn't stay where I was miserable, that is just me - I am damn easy to please in some ways (I don't need riches, status, an Alpha male & mystery) and damn hard to please in other ways ...my husband knows what they are and he is even grateful for them. 



> I think it's awesome when I see two people who just work. Sometimes you can pinpoint why they work, but sometimes it's something elusive. Maybe even they don't fully get it? But two people who it when they have it, that "click", that "it". It's a true miracle IMO.


Love your thoughts, you know they resonate with me... I enjoy pinpointing exactly WHY these things work, I go to great lengths trying to explain such things.... down to temperament, love languages, lover styles, if a couple is matched romantically.. Compatibility should never be underestimated in a marriage.



> *jaquen said*: We saw similar from others as friends continued getting married. We then realized that a lot of people get married without even touching on some extremely important issues.





> *kipani said*: , what kinda issues do they talk about? I wonder if I can talk to my BF about them.


Kipani - this thread below will cover much....


----------



## lovelygirl

that_girl said:


> But that's just why I hung out with guys for a while. Oh, and I couldn't have a conversation about clothes for 2 hours  :rofl:


Funny because I'm the same.
If there's anything I quickly get bored of ....are clothes!! :lol:

But what's funnier is that me an my girlfriends don't usually talk about clothes...actually..almost never!

What we mostly talk about ...are men! :smthumbup:

Especially, one of my gfs who is married can't help but talk about crushes she meets daily. Yes...she talks about her crushes. I'm the only single in the group, yet I don't talk about my crushes as much as they do.


----------



## lovelygirl

In order not to highjack the thread you can keep up with the discussion here:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies...-talk-about-when-girlfriends.html#post1300358


----------



## jaquen

kipani said:


> Jaq, what kinda issues do they talk about? I wonder if I can talk to my BF about them.


They cover basic compatibility issues.

How do you each feel about children? Get specific. 

What is your take on money? How do you divide it up? What are you views, and goals, regarding your lifestyle and financial future?

Does your family have a history of divorce? Do you know some common reasons why the people in your family divorced?

Stuff like that. I'm not sure if they talked about sex, or not. They had just never gotten really indepth, and honest, about basic compatibility. 

For some people it might also just be easier to open up on a counseling environment. Might feel safer.


----------



## that_girl

And for the love of everything holy, TALK ABOUT SEX.

Frequency needed
Kinkiness
importance
Porn
masturbation

TALK.
Ok. no more thread jacking.


----------



## ATC529R

that_girl said:


> You just love trying to cause trouble. Enough, thanks.


???????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> You're so right.
> 
> I just wish I could get rid of this pesky c*ck dangling between my legs. It sure makes it tough to be a "woman like myself".


Don't you find it interesting when someone's first three post are guns blazing on a hot topic. I often wonder who's on the other end of these new dart throwing posters.


----------



## Coffee Amore

Thundarr said:


> Don't you find it interesting when someone's first three post are guns blazing on a hot topic. I often wonder who's on the other end of these new dart throwing posters.


It's reincarnation. Something old is new again on TAM.


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> Don't you find it interesting when someone's first three post are guns blazing on a hot topic. I often wonder who's on the other end of these new dart throwing posters.


Old posters, made new again.

Or Troll.

I'm going with the latter considering their very first post, and the dead giveaway user name.

Or, hey, could be _both_.


----------



## costa200

> Nope. My spiritual, and moral, boundaries prevented me from taking up women on offers even when I was unattached.
> 
> The reasons that I have control aren't all about being in a relationship.
> 
> And yes, I have always been a "very sexual" person.


Is there a burst out laughing smile somewhere? Is this it? :lol:

So, a sexually attractive woman offers herself to you and you, not having a relationship, or some other specific reason to refuse, are going to say no? Someone call the Vatican, we found ourselves yet another internet saint!


----------



## jaquen

costa200 said:


> Is there a burst out laughing smile somewhere? Is this it? :lol:
> 
> So, a sexually attractive woman offers herself to you and you, not having a relationship, or some other specific reason to refuse, are going to say no? Someone call the Vatican, we found ourselves yet another internet saint!


Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. I have, as a single man, turned down attempts at sex back when I didn't believe in sex before marriage. My spiritual convictions are a "reason to refuse" in and of themselves.

But I don't have conversations with people who believe my personal spiritual beliefs are a laughing matter. You don't get it, and I couldn't care less that you do not.


----------



## lovelygirl

costa200 said:


> Is there a burst out laughing smile somewhere? Is this it? :lol:
> 
> So, a sexually attractive woman offers herself to you and you, not having a relationship, or some other specific reason to refuse, are going to say no? Someone call the Vatican, we found ourselves yet another internet saint!


Despite the fact that you're insulting without a reason now and make yourself sound like a troll..

Would you have sex with every woman out there as long as she has a vagina and is somewhat good looking?
You talk about standards in other threads, yet you wouldn't hesitate to bang the first woman that comes your way. [supposing you're single]. 

How would you feel if your woman banged every man in the neighborhood as long as he was tall and fit? 
I'm sure in this case you'd say she has low morals and wouldn't be wife material.


----------



## that_girl

Just wow.


----------



## mhg's-wife

lovelygirl said:


> There's nothing strange or unnatural (I REPEAT) in what you say or do but I always wonder why some women would prefer men's friendship over the female's one.


Maybe I'm a man underneath all these hips, boobs and other female bits :rofl:

I can see your point. I can even understand why it would seem strange to choose men's company to a woman.

My point is this - my life revolves around these things...things I enjoy, can talk about till I'm blue in the face...which bull to put over which cow, why that dozer isn't working, which fence needs tightening, which grass to grow, what fertilizer to use, blah blah blah.
I have yet to meet a single woman that was even remotely interested in these things. 
Even in my family, in-laws roll their eyes at me and groan in boredom if I say something about my cows.
Perhaps I just meet the wrong women.

Show me a female that likes the things I like, and there's one I could be friends with.
It's not a matter of preferring men over women, it's a matter of preferring to have common ground with friends.

I need a sex change...


----------



## costa200

jaquen said:


> Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. I have, as a single man, turned down attempts at sex back when I didn't believe in sex before marriage. My spiritual convictions are a "reason to refuse" in and of themselves.
> 
> But I don't have conversations with people who believe my personal spiritual beliefs are a laughing matter. You don't get it, and I don't couldn't care less that you do.


You like to twist what people say. I wasn't laughing at your "spiritual beliefs" whatever they may be. I'm outright laughing at you saying that you NOW (not some scared youngster that hides from sex behind a bible) would refuse a sexual overture. 

If i had some 100 euro bills for every holier than thou dude who claims chastity and is giving it to some tail on the side i would be a very rich man. You may fall into that tiny percentage that are in it for real, but i would not bet on it.


----------



## mhg's-wife

Incidentally, lovelygirl, I apologise if I came across as though I think women are silly and vacuous twits. 
I don't, and it wasn't intended that way.
I'm just so very different to any woman I know, that's all.

Also I should probably clarify something.
When I say these men are my best friends, I mean mates, as in within a farming scenario.
I don't go for coffee with them, or movies, we don't talk about anything except farming.
My best friend is my husband. I do my coffee and movies with him. 
Poor man, I should probably warn him I'm considering a sex change....


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jaquen said:


> Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. I have, as a single man, turned down attempts at sex back when I didn't believe in sex before marriage. My spiritual convictions are a "reason to refuse" in and of themselves.
> 
> But I don't have conversations with people who believe my personal spiritual beliefs are a laughing matter. You don't get it, and I couldn't care less that you do not.


Our oldest son is the same way, he is 22 , damn good looking and still has not taken a woman down..plenty has wanted him for a BF.... it annoys me to no Fvcking end that others can not believe, understand, or respect the fact, that yeah... some men have convictions.... Sure he Looks at women....he lusts a little, that yeah, he even masterbates... struggles with porn ..He is still a man.....but he does NOT believe in the hot dog in the bun before marriage. 

I don't look upon him as a Freak, a weirdo, but a man of temperance....honorable to his values...he does not believe in the double standard...nor casual sex... but still has the restraint / even audacity to believe in saving yourself for ONE woman, because God Help him, he thinks he will find one who will treasure that. 

For his sake, in this day & age...I hope it's not a pipe dream.


----------



## RandomDude

I come back to this thread and it jumps 8 pages... hell how to keep up? =O


----------



## lovelygirl

mhg's-wife said:


> Incidentally, lovelygirl, I apologise if I came across as though I think women are silly and vacuous twits.
> I don't, and it wasn't intended that way.
> I'm just so very different to any woman I know, that's all.


That's okay. No need to apologize. It could've been my bad. English is not my first language so I must've taken it the wrong way.


----------



## that_girl

costa200 said:


> If i had some 100 euro bills for every holier than thou dude who claims chastity and is giving it to some tail on the side i would be a very rich man. You may fall into that tiny percentage that are in it for real, but i would not bet on it.


So you're saying Jaquen is cheating on his wife? :scratchhead:

That's a big jump, and highly insulting. Wow.


----------



## krismimo

WOW! That is ummm wow damn I don't know what to say. Jaquen we have a lot in common there was a point in my life I did that as well. SO I understand the skepticism.


----------



## jaquen

costa200 said:


> You like to twist what people say. I wasn't laughing at your "spiritual beliefs" whatever they may be. I'm outright laughing at you saying that you NOW (not some scared youngster that hides from sex behind a bible) would refuse a sexual overture.


Do you imagine that me getting married suddenly caused all people to not try and make advances?

And are you suggesting that I would cheat on my wife merely because some woman offers me a "sexual overture"?

I'm married, not deceased. Women didn't stop hitting on me because I entered into matrimony.

And perhaps this is what this is all leading up to. You don't have women who ever attempt to make advances on you, so you can't fathom turning a woman down. I have no such luxuries. I chose not to cheat on my wife, I don't remain faithful because nobody in the world is interested.



costa200 said:


> If i had some 100 euro bills for every holier than thou dude who claims chastity and is giving it to some tail on the side i would be a very rich man. You may fall into that tiny percentage that are in it for real, but i would not bet on it.


If you need to believe that I am lying about my sexual history, have at it. Zero damns will be lost tonight.


----------



## jaquen

krismimo said:


> WOW! That is ummm wow damn I don't know what to say. Jaquen we have a lot in common there was a point in my life I did that as well. SO I understand the skepticism.


I definitely understand the skepticism. Nobody close to me had a problem believing, as they knew me, and know I don't BS.

But outside parties? Absolutely. And when I mention that my wife and I, despite being together for years, and very attracted to one another, with great sexual chemistry, waited until marriage (though I was not a virgin)? It's even harder to grasp. I know, because looking back it got to a point where it was even hard for us to grasp.

So I don't even try to explain it. If this dude needs to believe that I am lying about my sexual choices in the past, or that I'm screwing women behind my wife's back today, if that's what it takes to make him feel better, he can project, project, project away.

It changes nothing.


----------



## jaquen

SimplyAmorous said:


> Our oldest son is the same way, he is 22 , damn good looking and still has not taken a woman down..plenty has wanted him for a BF.... it annoys me to no Fvcking end that others can not believe, understand, or respect the fact, that yeah... some men have convictions.... Sure he Looks at women....he lusts a little, that yeah, he even masterbates... struggles with porn ..He is still a man.....but he does NOT believe in the hot dog in the bun before marriage.
> 
> I don't look upon him as a Freak, a weirdo, but a man of temperance....honorable to his values...he does not believe in the double standard...nor casual sex... but still has the restraint / even audacity to believe in saving yourself for ONE woman, because God Help him, he thinks he will find one who will treasure that.
> 
> For his sake, in this day & age...I hope it's not a pipe dream.


Having walked that road, he's got to have a woman who is right there with him. All the way, down the line.

He's a praying man. I was too, and still am. There were emotional and very strong spiritual reasons why I chose my wife. Things God knew that I could not, things he whispered into my spirit. I couldn't have waited with anybody else. It had to be somebody who was right on board, and who could cherish me, and I her, without the great bond sex provides. And even then, it didn't start off that way. My wife was floored that I told her I am waiting for marriage, even though I'd lost my virginity. Floored. And it was tough, tough, tough back then. We broke up partially over it. And during that time away she had her own powerful spiritual encounter. So when we came back together, we were on the same footing. And we never got off the same footing on that matter. When I was caving in, she'd pull me back, and vice versa. What we did, for many long years, was unfathomable.

I don't even believe I'd do it again, if given the chance. I knew she was mine, and I hers, long before we married. After awhile neither of us even felt like it would be "wrong" to have sex before marriage. But we'd put so much time into remaining celibate that we said, no, lets finish what we started.

And the wait was well worth it. Sexually compatible to the high heavens, which we knew even before we had sex, with similar sexual appetites. 

What your son is doing is a tough, rare road. I so wish him the very best if he truly believes it is his necessary road.


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## Thundarr

NextTimeAround said:


> Or before you get legally hitched, find someone who naturally observes the same boundaries that you do.......
> 
> 
> jaquen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't it amazing how many people, still, don't follow this simple rule?
Click to expand...

Is this really surprising? Everyone puts on their "whatever you want me to be" face while dating. Plus youth plays a part. And people think butterflies and fireworks are equivelant to compatibility.


----------



## TRy

jaquen said:


> Are you serious right now? I asked you point blank how you can insure that your spouse doesn't make connections to members of the opposite sex. Unless you are handcuffed to them 24-7, you can not. That's not snide, that's a basic fact.
> 
> This makes no sense to me, and I am being honest here TRy. You don't trust your spouse to befriend members of the opposite sex, in case something happens, and yet you trust them to tell you the truth about bonds they do, or do not, have with members of the OS? How is there implicit trust on one hand, and a challenge to that trust on another?
> 
> And how would you know, unless you were with them 24-7?


 Although you may not agree with it, I do not understand how you do not comprehend my point of view. You cannot trust an otherwise trustworthy spouse to be honest with you once they develop feeling for someone else and are in an emotional affair fog. Prior to the fog you can trust them. Going on one-on-one regular dinner and a movie outings with "just friends" of the opposite sex allows for inappropriate feelings to develop and for the affair fog to have the opportunity to set in. If they did not spend so much alone time together during a down time in the marriage, those feeling may not have had the opportunity to develop. If you have never had any down times in your marraige, then you have never met my children; they are great kids but they have at times made my wife and I de-prioritize each other when we were not paying attention. Yes this means that we are not perfect, but we are only human and should not have to be.


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> For me, when I only hung out with men was because I couldn't trust women. All of my close female friends (and I mean ALL) from ages 16 to 24 screwed me over royally, with my boyfriends or exes. Yes, the men were jerks too BUT I have a code with my female friends and that's number one: NO EXES. If you steal my bf, you are not my friend.


The drama is one reason I'm so glad I'm a guy. This type of scenario is rare with men. And it never stops. A workplace with a bunch of lovely ladies is like a mine field.


----------



## that_girl

Thundarr said:


> The drama is one reason I'm so glad I'm a guy. This type of scenario is rare with men. And it never stops. A workplace with a bunch of lovely ladies is like a mine field.


I have never been screwed over by a guy. Ever.


----------



## Thundarr

kipani said:


> Jaq, what kinda issues do they talk about? I wonder if I can talk to my BF about them.


Not to speak for Jaq but I can tell you two threads that he and I are on now that do not get discussed often. 1. OSF and 2. Pornography.

Really I think something like His Needs/Her Needs should be read early on.


----------



## RandomDude

> the men were jerks too BUT I have a code with my female friends and that's number one: NO EXES. If you steal my bf, you are not my friend.


Ahahahaha lol reminds me of years ago, mates trying to hook me up with their EXS!!! That was fking wrong lol


----------



## jaquen

TRy said:


> Although you may not agree with it, I do not understand how you do not comprehend my point of view. You cannot trust an otherwise trustworthy spouse to be honest with you once they develop feeling for someone else and are in an emotional affair fog. Prior to the fog you can trust them. Going on one-on-one regular dinner and a movie outings with "just friends" of the opposite sex allows for inappropriate feelings to develop and for the affair fog to have the opportunity to set in. If they did not spend so much alone time together during a down time in the marriage, those feeling may not have had the opportunity to develop. If you have never had any down times in your marraige, then you have never met my children; they are great kids but they have at times made my wife and I de-prioritize each other when we were not paying attention. Yes this means that we are not perfect, but we are only human and should not have to be.


I absolutely understand how this situation can turn deadly. Like I mentioned above, I came up with infidelity having a profound, and very serious, impact on my young life. Infidelity, and affairs, are common, and wide spread.

I am just asking you about the concept of trust. Even after the EA, or PA, even with precautions in place, new boundaries set up, new levels of accountability...

Don't you still, at the core, end up having to blindly trust your spouse when they walk out the door in the morning?


----------



## ireallylike

that_girl said:


> So you're saying Jaquen is cheating on his wife? :scratchhead:
> 
> That's a big jump, and highly insulting. Wow.



Hi this is Costa200 posting from another account because i was banned by an attentive and most excellent moderator. Since this will probably be my last post on this board i just wanted to clear this up.


No i wasn't saying he is cheating on his wife. If you follow the discussion some pages back, i'm saying that he would not refuse a sexual overture from a woman if he had no other relationship and no specific reason to not accept it.

Reading the whole exchange will prove this. 



*Since i'm posting i just want to say goodbye to the guys here in the board that i like, and that is most of you people. Heck, that's probably almost all of you.

I had a blast here and i think this board is really important for people who want to learn how to improve every aspect of their relationships. I wish more people thought of seeking these boards out instead of doing it when it is already too late. 

I also want to use this opportunity to apologize to jaquen if i somehow insulted whatever he believes in. I wasn't heading that way and i was misinterpreted. I had some massive post explaining exactly what i meant but i lost it when i pressed to submit and was greeted with the "you were banned" page. Won't write all that again.

If a mod sees fit to delete this post i only ask that it is left up time enough for at least my apology to jaquen be seen. I could have done it by PM but i wanted it public because i believe in owning up to it, even when i feel that my intentions were not understood. 


*


----------



## jaquen

What a classy gesture Costa, thank you. Apology most definitely accepted.

I hope the MODS let you keep this account. If not, Godspeed. We might have vehemently disagreed in this topic, but I have often agreed with your views elsewhere.


----------



## TRy

jaquen said:


> Don't you still, at the core, end up having to blindly trust your spouse when they walk out the door in the morning?


 Absolutely. I just like to better the odds.


----------



## mhg

mhg's-wife said:


> Incidentally, lovelygirl, I apologise if I came across as though I think women are silly and vacuous twits.
> I don't, and it wasn't intended that way.
> I'm just so very different to any woman I know, that's all.
> 
> Also I should probably clarify something.
> When I say these men are my best friends, I mean mates, as in within a farming scenario.
> I don't go for coffee with them, or movies, we don't talk about anything except farming.
> My best friend is my husband. I do my coffee and movies with him.
> Poor man, I should probably warn him I'm considering a sex change....


Jeez, you'd better book me in then too
Can I try one of your dresses on?
:rofl:


----------



## mhg's-wife

SimplyAmorous said:


> I don't look upon him as a Freak, a weirdo, but a man of temperance....honorable to his values...he does not believe in the double standard...nor casual sex... but still has the restraint / even audacity to believe in saving yourself for ONE woman, because God Help him, he thinks he will find one who will treasure that.
> 
> For his sake, in this day & age...I hope it's not a pipe dream.


Not a pipe dream. My daughter is 23, and is a proud virgin and intends to stay that way until she marries.
She thinks her quest for the one man who will cherish her is a waste of time, because in her words, all boys her age are idiots and only out for one thing.
She is the only virgin out of her friends, and my god does she cop a flogging for it.
Still, she perseveres.
God love her, I only hope she doesn't wind up disappointed.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Thundarr said:


> *It depends on the semantics of what blind trust is to us. We have to trust our spouse at the end of the day but we also need foster an affair proof environment. * If we truly love our partner then we have catch them when they fall and be paying attention so we know when it's happening. They are fallible after all. If blind trust means trusting them unconditionally then I think it's not very fair to them. So I'm not a fan of blind trust in that regard.


Yeah, I agree with this. Plus, in hindsight, I also think that my husband was wondering why I would want to be friends with women who don't observe the boundaries of marriage and instead depend on him to behave himself.

My situation was that I moved country to marry my husband and therefore, in the pre digital age, in a country whose population prides itself on being standoffish, I was keen to make friends. Now looking back and forward, I realise when people don't behave themselves, like female friends, you just simply drop them and find new ones instead of trying to make things work, and then burdening your husband with added expectations.

Once again, let's not forget that an EA does not need to get to a PA to become a problem to the marriage. But of course, I was married in the 90s, at a time when the concept of an EA was still in development.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

TRy said:


> Going on one-on-one regular dinner and a movie outings with "just friends" of the opposite sex allows for inappropriate feelings to develop and for the affair fog to have the opportunity to set in.


 I agree this can happen...if their is physical attraction ~ way more so....this is something we don't do in our marriage, we do everything together. 



> *If they did not spend so much alone time together during a down time in the marriage*, those feeling may not have had the opportunity to develop.


 Just speaking for myself here, theres only been 2 downtimes in our marriage....trying to conceive...and when I started to question my husbands desire because my sex drive sky rocketed (on a lessor scale ~ and all in my head)..... and both caused me to run to him & hang on more so....and he's never pushed me away. In this way, my husband's never let me down, I'm not the type that runs from a problem but plants myself there till we work it out. This helps- but only if you have a spouse who wants that & feels the same way. 




> *Originally Posted by that_girl *
> For me, when I only hung out with men was *because I couldn't trust women.* All of my close female friends (and I mean ALL) from ages 16 to 24 screwed me over royally, with my boyfriends or exes. Yes, the men were jerks too BUT I have a code with my female friends and that's number one: NO EXES. If you steal my bf, you are not my friend


 I've never had a friend screw me over in relation to boys/ men. I had one boy I liked - like my best GF more than me before I met my husband -but that wasn't her fault ! She didn't do anything, she didn't even like him, thought he was weird. . 

But women are *very petty* and I'v had them get mad at me over the dumbest damn things, I had one not talk to me for years because she felt left out that I was friends with another lady she hated vehemently... 

Then that friend ....was going to cut me off for life over something I said, it was like :wtf: We were friends since 10th grade, I was on my 3rd kid by then... so I had to kiss her royal a$$ to get her back in my life (which is not really what I did, but I got her to come to my house, and we TALKED it out on a walking trail in my back yard)...and from that time on, she has called me her best friend ....because I am the only one who cared enough to confront her & explain why I said what I said, eat a little crow but forgiveness went forth. 

Women are too temperamental, get too offended, and frankly if I did work, I'd prefer to be around men 10 times more.


----------



## pandorabox

Well I always believed you can have a male friend but changed my mind 2 weeks ago - yes throw the stones at me - guilty as charged.
I guess it could only work if they super unatrractive


----------



## Open up now let it all go

Thundarr said:


> Percentage of men who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: *74%*
> 
> Percentage of women who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: *68%*


Wow... Didn't knew that one. I'm not really surprised by the rest of the high infidelity ratings. No surprise there. But this one makes me wonder why so many people actually care so little about what a committed relationship/marriage is about. It seems to be just a facade in their eyes - something you do in life at a certain moment without much further thoughts. I get that people are tempted in life and that they make mistakes, mistakes with dire consequences nonetheless. But I thought that these things happen because of weakness, when the relationship with their spouse is bad, spurs of the moment, whatever. I didn't expect that it would be something you coldly calculate the odds for and see if it's viable to cheat around on your partner. Meh...


----------



## arbitrator

I have a number of female friends but they also happen to be married to male friends of mine. The only real social activity that I ever have with them is basically when all of us socialize together at dinner, parties, and the such.

I greatly respect the institution of marriage and could never find myself wanting to ever circumvent the beloved trust that exists between them and me, by ever thinking of my even wanting to hit on these ladies. 

Their love, friendship, and mutual trust just means so very much more to me!


----------



## Tony55

Can anyone tell me why Costa200 was banned? I read all of his posts in this thread, and unless one of those posts have been deleted, I see nothing here that should have gotten him banned.

T


----------



## ocotillo

Goldmember357 said:


> Seems to me this is the case...



'All' is a pretty inclusive term to answer with a, "Seems to me..." don't you think? 

I'm sure you understand the limitations of anecdotal observation. 

At any rate, I would disagree. I have a good friend from childhood. I met her when I was six and she was five. There weren't any other children around and we spent practically every waking moment together. 

It never, ever got physical, not even so much as an experimental kiss because a familial barrier developed between us. --Probably the result of growing up together. 

She's been married almost as long as I have and we still keep in touch after 50+ years.


----------



## sandc

As a guy, I'd have to cop to not having female friends for this very reason. Now I love my wife and would never want to hurt her. But when I spend too much time with a moderately attractive woman I begin to wonder "what if?" Since I even have those thoughts I know that it's not within me to have female friends. I'm far too flirty for it to be safe.


----------



## jaquen

Open up now let it all go said:


> But this one makes me wonder why so many people actually care so little about what a committed relationship/marriage is about. It seems to be just a facade in their eyes - something you do in life at a certain moment without much further thoughts.


I believe this is exactly it. Marriage hasn't always been defined as we see it now. These days it's more an attempt at a love match, based more off feelings. In that past marriage, for most people, had extraordinary social, financial, and cultural implications. It's not that many didn't marry for love, but mad, wild, passionate love was never the hallmark of marriage before the 20th century. And, of course, the stigma of divorce was far harsher.

I think we are still keeping the tradition, but without the context. So people are marrying because that's what we're "suppose" to do, but don't necessarily even know why they truly _need _to be married. Without the social, or religious, pressures to stay married, the much freer attitudes about sex, and without the absolute need to be married for survival, people are finding that marriages based almost exclusively off the early butterflies of a relationship can topple as soon as those feelings start to wane. And then, at that point, why stay married? 

I really believe marriage, in today's western world at least, should be far rarer. And you should never marry because that's what people just do. I was talking to my wife last night, and I said that I don't feel like I need to be married in general, but rather I am married because I need to be bonded in that way specifically with _her_. 

If people are really, truly honest with themselves, can they answer the question? Did you marry because you loved someone, and the next step is suppose to be marriage? Or could you have been fine going the rest of your life unmarried if that specific person never came into your life?


----------



## Created2Write

Thundarr said:


> This is an example of something I would find inappropriate for me or my wife. I'm friendly with my ex wife because we are raising our children in a unified front but I would feel guilty if we were buddies.
> 
> I agree with many of the points made by everyone but an OSF/ex would be a problem for our marriage no doubt.


I can't see anything inappropriate about it at all. My husband hasn't met the guy, which some could say is pushing the limit. But this ex and I talk over IM _maybe_ once every six months. My husband trusts me and I also trust myself. I'm not the type of person to seek out male companionship with anyone but my husband. In fact, all of my male friendships are almost entirely based over IM due to the long distance. 

And it's not like I have tons of male friends. But I am a social person, and I'm not going to let the title of "marriage" limit my social circle to people with boobs and a vagina. Maybe others have different boundaries, and that's totally fine for them. For me and husband? Nope. My husband has plenty of female friends, even girls he'd wanted to date once before. He doesn't hang out with them unless I know about it first, and he rarely talks to them at all. In fact, it's been nearly a year since he last hung out with one of them. 

I'm confident enough in myself not to be obsessive and suspicious. I know who I am, how sexy my husband finds me, and I know how I deserve to be treated. If something ever happened between my husband and these friends, the issue wouldn't be with having OSF in general, the issue would be with the individual people.


----------



## FalconKing

I agree with that 100% Jaquen. That goes back to soooo many things. So many people in unhealthy relationships, can't communicate, absurdly selfish, the cheating, abusive, etc... But i'm sure most of these people can't imagine NOT being married. When they have no idea how to love a spouse. It's just the thing to do. I think the idea of getting married and "keeping the romance alive" is a fairly new concept because many other things took precedents in marriage. Many cultures don't even expect to do those things after marriage. A friend of mine and her husband are from another country. He actually told her that after they married..._We are married now. We don't have to do that romantic stuff anymore._ :slap:


----------



## sandc

Created2Write said:


> I can't see anything inappropriate about it at all. My husband hasn't met the guy, which some could say is pushing the limit. But this ex and I talk over IM _maybe_ once every six months. My husband trusts me and I also trust myself. I'm not the type of person to seek out male companionship with anyone but my husband. In fact, all of my male friendships are almost entirely based over IM due to the long distance.
> 
> And it's not like I have tons of male friends. But I am a social person, and I'm not going to let the title of "marriage" limit my social circle to people with boobs and a vagina. Maybe others have different boundaries, and that's totally fine for them. For me and husband? Nope. My husband has plenty of female friends, even girls he'd wanted to date once before. He doesn't hang out with them unless I know about it first, and he rarely talks to them at all. In fact, it's been nearly a year since he last hung out with one of them.
> 
> I'm confident enough in myself not to be obsessive and suspicious. I know who I am, how sexy my husband finds me, and I know how I deserve to be treated. If something ever happened between my husband and these friends, the issue wouldn't be with having OSF in general, the issue would be with the individual people.


I wonder what your guy friends think though.


----------



## FalconKing

Created2Write didn't you post before about taking dance classes and one guy kept wanting to dance with you and mentioned that he was going to take you from your husband? You still dance with that guy?


----------



## Thundarr

Created2Write said:


> I can't see anything inappropriate about it at all. My husband hasn't met the guy, which some could say is pushing the limit. But this ex and I talk over IM _maybe_ once every six months. My husband trusts me and I also trust myself. I'm not the type of person to seek out male companionship with anyone but my husband. In fact, all of my male friendships are almost entirely based over IM due to the long distance.
> 
> And it's not like I have tons of male friends. But I am a social person, and I'm not going to let the title of "marriage" limit my social circle to people with boobs and a vagina. Maybe others have different boundaries, and that's totally fine for them. For me and husband? Nope. My husband has plenty of female friends, even girls he'd wanted to date once before. He doesn't hang out with them unless I know about it first, and he rarely talks to them at all. In fact, it's been nearly a year since he last hung out with one of them.
> 
> I'm confident enough in myself not to be obsessive and suspicious. I know who I am, how sexy my husband finds me, and I know how I deserve to be treated. If something ever happened between my husband and these friends, the issue wouldn't be with having OSF in general, the issue would be with the individual people.


Even though I cannot make myself interpret those boundaries as safe, I do like so many of your posts on a broad range of topics and I believe you've put thought into it.


----------



## Coffee Amore

sandc said:


> I wonder what your guy friends think though.


But what does that matter?

Created2write isn't responsible for some man's hidden intentions. He is responsible for his thoughts. She is responsible for her own boundaries and conduct. If she can maintain those boundaries, and it sounds like she does, then the secret intentions of that man or any other man can't pierce the marital boundary she has set up.

Some of the issues people have with OSF comes from the fear that the OSF has secret intentions. But so what? If your spouse has good boundaries and is committed to the marriage then that OSF can't even get a flirty comment out before the spouse shuts it down. Now if your spouse won't do that, you have big problems in your marriage, and that spouse shouldn't have OSF at all. That's difference for me. I KNOW I would shut it down and I know my spouse would do the same if a woman came on to him.


----------



## Thundarr

Coffee Amore said:


> But what does that matter?
> 
> Created2write isn't responsible for some man's hidden intentions. He is responsible for his thoughts. She is responsible for her own boundaries and conduct. If she can maintain those boundaries, and it sounds like she does, then the secret intentions of that man or any other man can't pierce the marital boundary she has set up.
> 
> Some of the issues people have with OSF comes from the fear that the OSF has secret intentions. But so what? If your spouse has good boundaries and is committed to the marriage then that OSF can't even get a flirty comment out before the spouse shuts it down. Now if your spouse won't do that, you have big problems in your marriage, and that spouse shouldn't have OSF at all. That's difference for me. I KNOW I would shut it down and I know my spouse would do the same if a woman came on to him.


Well it does matter what they think since what they think about you defines if they are a friend or if they are just posing as one.

I think you actually made the point however that I was going to which is, it's one thing for them to want you sexually and you know it. It's another thing to blindly assume any OFS will want you for that. I think that assumption is invalid. Just happens that in C2W's case, it's an ex which is another dynamic than just guy friend and that's the part that I would have issues with even though it's possible under crazy circumstances that I MIGHT not mind. Very slim chance though. You solution is that when you catch flirty or inappropriate behavior to shut it down.

I personally don't think shut it down in regards to the flirting is enough. I think shut down the illusion that they are actually a friend is more accurate because if they have sexual interest in you and know that you have a commitment then they are thinking of themselves and not of you. That doesn't fit the definition of someone I would call a good friend anyway.


----------



## that_girl

That's so right, Coffee....lol "Coffee"...

My male friend and I don't flirt. Ever. We never have. It would be awkward and lame if he or I tried. It's just not like that.

If he did, I'd kick his ass. SNAP OUT OF IT! dang.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

sandc said:


> As a guy, I'd have to cop to not having female friends for this very reason. Now I love my wife and would never want to hurt her. But when I spend too much time with a moderately attractive woman I begin to wonder "what if?" Since I even have those thoughts I know that it's not within me to have female friends. I'm far too flirty for it to be safe.


I feel it IS vitally important to know oneself LIKE THIS !







SandC... and for speaking the truth about it.... far too many can NOT do this, they go on how it could never happen to them.

I could also believe for myself.. too close for comfort (getting off alone) ... too much physical attraction going on... oh yeah.. a fog could come over that.. I'm not immune. 



> *jaquen said*: If people are really, truly honest with themselves, can they answer the question? Did you marry because you loved someone, and the next step is suppose to be marriage? Or could you have been fine going the rest of your life unmarried if that specific person never came into your life?


 I can answer this very easily... I ALWAYS wanted marriage, I love everything about being bonded to the love of my life.. I could not see my life without that, I would not be happy without a man in my life ~ this completes me ... but we are both pathetic Hopeless Romantics who wanted kids/family ... so it all makes sense ...

We're the type that was destined for marriage & all it's fullness. I count marrying my husband the greatest thing I have ever done in this life...because every dream I dared dream came from this Union. 

Because I feel so strongly....I've always had a hard time understanding people who didn't care about being in love.. I needed to understand....not everyone THINKS like me....or FEELS like me... It's no sin, to each their own. We married for all the right reasons.. We didn't rush, in fact I held back until I knew for sure...had that perfect peace....all the stars lined in a row...or we would have married yrs earlier.


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## Tony55

I think everyone here has their own definition of what constitutes an opposite sex friend. It might help if posters put their personal OSF contact in context; example, I have an OSF who I talk to weekly, or see daily, or talk to once a year, etc.

I have many friends who I rarely talk to and many I talk to daily; obviously the ones I talk to daily I know more intimately (in the present). Would I expect a person to have an issue with their spouse talking to an OSF daily? Yes. Annually? no. Work acquaintance in the context of work? no.

Some of these people disagreeing on here aren't even disagreeing on the same thing.

T


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Coffee Amore said:


> But what does that matter?
> 
> Created2write isn't responsible for some man's hidden intentions. He is responsible for his thoughts. *She is responsible for her own boundaries and conduct.* If she can maintain those boundaries, and it sounds like she does, then the secret intentions of that man or any other man can't pierce the marital boundary she has set up.
> 
> Some of the issues people have with OSF comes from the fear that the OSF has secret intentions. But so what? * If your spouse has good boundaries and is committed to the marriage then that OSF can't even get a flirty comment out before the spouse shuts it down.* Now if your spouse won't do that, you have big problems in your marriage, and that spouse shouldn't have OSF at all. That's difference for me. I KNOW I would shut it down and I know my spouse would do the same if a woman came on to him.


This is how me & mine think -- I left a post not too long ago on one of LovelyGirls threads about "hitting" - I said this .....could also apply to a Male friends UNSPOKEN hidden intentions >>>

This reply is not about what one constitutes as HITTING but how I feel it should be handled if /when it comes.

Me & mine had a conversation about this ages ago... we both feel the same....neither of us can help what other people outside of our little circle DO...what they think, what they say, their body language, their motivations/intentions... 

It is He who is *committed *to me ...and I who am* committed* to him...  So if some outside force (male/ female, friend/ stranger) .... is hitting, a little too flirtatious, body language raising an eye brow...we can't help that....we're just living, we are social creatures after all. 

*However*....we can choose to remove ourselves, put up a barrier of some sort if we feel a line (in our







) is being crossed... as to NOT hurt our significant other. But we both agree.... our beef would be with each other... not the outside force. 

I would never confront another woman - I would confront the one I am committed to...if what I saw/felt was "inappropriate behavior".....we'd be talking.


----------



## TRy

In looking at the divorce rate percentages please notice that they are talking about the percentage of marriages that end in divorce and not the percentage of people that divorce. To understand this distinction I will give you an example. If you have three bothers where 2 have been married for many years and never divorced, and where 1 of the brothers has been married and divorced 3 times, then for those brothers you would have 5 marriages and 3 divorces for a divorce rate of 60%. Although the 60% divorce rate for those bothers would be true, it would not correctly reflect the fact the only 33% of the brothers have ever been divorced. The statistical characteristic of the 3 brothers divorce rate example is similar to the characteristics of the divorce rate of the entire population, thus if you have never been divorced, the odds of you as an individual getting a divorce is lower than the divorce rate would indicate.


----------



## Thundarr

TRy said:


> In looking at the divorce rate percentages please notice that they are talking about the percentage of marriages that end in divorce and not the percentage of people that divorce. To understand this distinction I will give you an example. If you have three bothers where 2 have been married for many years and never divorced, and where 1 of the brothers has been married and divorced 3 times, then for those brothers you would have 5 marriages and 3 divorces for a divorce rate of 60%. Although the 60% divorce rate for those bothers would be true, it would not correctly reflect the fact the only 33% of the brothers have ever been divorced. The statistical characteristic of the 3 brothers divorce rate example is similar to the characteristics of the divorce rate of the entire population, thus if you have never been divorced, the odds of you as an individual getting a divorce is lower than the divorce rate would indicate.


Anything that makes these numbers reports look higher than they are makes me happy. Unfortunalety that's only one of many and they're all high. Maybe there are a couple more that appear worse than statistics imply. The 75% / 68% one thought provoking for sure.


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## Created2Write

sandc said:


> I wonder what your guy friends think though.


What _they_ think doesn't define how _I_ act or react. 

I know for a fact one of my make friends _used_ to have feelings for me. Not like crazy feelings, just a crush. I never liked him that way, and so nothing happened. Knowing he liked me makes no difference in our friendship. There are boundaries that exist and, if ever crossed by either one of us(intentionally or unintentionally) the friendship would be over in a heartbeat. But for the last...four years he's been utterly respectful of my relationship with my husband. If he does still have feelings for me, they certainly don't show. If he ever acted on them, that would be it.


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## Created2Write

FalconKing said:


> Created2Write didn't you post before about taking dance classes and one guy kept wanting to dance with you and mentioned that he was going to take you from your husband? You still dance with that guy?


He never said any such thing. He flirted, yes. Ballroom dance kind of comes with that automatically. Dancing can be incredibly passionate, and usually is when two people are good at it. I never flirted back. He _did_ test the waters once. We were dancing a slower dance and he said flirtatiously, "This dance is notorious for guys to slide their hands _down_." Referring to my a$$. I didn't laugh or smile. I just said, with all seriousness, "Well I trust you. Time will tell if that's a wise choice or not." I decided then and there, if his hand moved even an inch down toward my butt, I would intentionally step on his feet and leave class and never dance with him again.

That weekend we went dancing outside of class. I dressed up cute(I never did my hair and makeup in class, which was where our dancing together primarily took place). And I brought my husband with me. The guy asked me to dance maybe twice. 

We still dance together occasionally, yeah. But never without my husband present. The dance is an Open Swing Dance class at a ballroom, and I would never want to go dancing without my husband. So on the rare occasion when I go(it's been like, six months since the last I went), I make sure to take hubs.


----------



## Created2Write

Coffee Amore said:


> But what does that matter?
> 
> Created2write isn't responsible for some man's hidden intentions. He is responsible for his thoughts. She is responsible for her own boundaries and conduct. If she can maintain those boundaries, and it sounds like she does, then the secret intentions of that man or any other man can't pierce the marital boundary she has set up.
> 
> Some of the issues people have with OSF comes from the fear that the OSF has secret intentions. But so what? If your spouse has good boundaries and is committed to the marriage then that OSF can't even get a flirty comment out before the spouse shuts it down. Now if your spouse won't do that, you have big problems in your marriage, and that spouse shouldn't have OSF at all. That's difference for me. I KNOW I would shut it down and I know my spouse would do the same if a woman came on to him.


SO true. As an example, the Swing Dance guy who I mentioned once before: I can tell by the way he acts, the way he talks, and the we he looks at me that he thinks he can get any girl he wants. And I can tell he likes me, if only for the mere fact that I can dance really well, and I'm fairly attractive. And he's a fantastic guy to dance with. He leads well, knows moves I'd never seen before we started dancing, and makes conversation instead of just staring at me like I'm some carnavor. 

He flirts. So? I don't flirt back. His actions don't define mine. _I_ am in control of what I do and say, not _him_. Like you said, his hidden intentions mean nothing about what choices I make. 

Same with my husband. Whenever a woman flirts with him, the first thing he does is say something nice about me. This is why there's trust between us. Even when the other person isn't around or close by, we enforce our boundaries. What those girls intend means nothing so long as my husband intends to remain faithful, which he does.


----------



## that_girl

People are just going to pick because they can't understand. Just do what you do. Whatever.


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## FalconKing

So you have no problem continuing to communicate and passionately dance with a man who flirted with you and even tested the waters?

Do you feel like you have enough control to never let it go further? Even if you feel that way, why do you need to do this? Does it empower you do know that other men want you and you not succumb to that?


----------



## Created2Write

Thundarr said:


> Well it does matter what they think since what they think about you defines if they are a friend or if they are just posing as one.
> 
> I think you actually made the point however that I was going to which is, it's one thing for them to want you sexually and you know it. It's another thing to blindly assume any OFS will want you for that. I think that assumption is invalid. Just happens that in C2W's case, it's an ex which is another dynamic than just guy friend and that's the part that I would have issues with even though it's possible under crazy circumstances that I MIGHT not mind. Very slim chance though. You solution is that when you catch flirty or inappropriate behavior to shut it down.
> 
> I personally don't think shut it down in regards to the flirting is enough. I think shut down the illusion that they are actually a friend is more accurate because if they have sexual interest in you and know that you have a commitment then they are thinking of themselves and not of you. That doesn't fit the definition of someone I would call a good friend anyway.


If my ex still has repressed sexual feelings for me, then yeah, to _him_ it might be more than friendship. I can't see their intentions, though. So, until such feelings have been declared, we're just friends. That's why we have boundaries, to identify when things have gone beyond friendship. IMO the friendship remains a friendship until at least one person acts on what they feel.


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## ATC529R

FalconKing said:


> So you have no problem continuing to communicate and passionately dance with a man who flirted with you and even tested the waters?
> 
> Do you feel like you have enough control to never let it go further? Even if you feel that way, why do you need to do this? Does it empower you do know that other men want you and you not succumb to that?


It is flirtacious to even continue communicating with him...much less dancing.

he sees green lights, but proceed with caution signs.


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## NextTimeAround

The other trend in relationships these days, in addition to the new trends in marriage, is that -- even before the digital age-- it became ok to be friends with the opposite sex. In the olden days, men and women didn't have social relationships unless they were courting one another or were already relatives. 

I tried to be more open minded about other women's behaviour towards me and my SO (whether erstwhile husband or my current fiancé) but I have been screwed enough by predatory women that I have finally learned to say "My way or the highway."

Let me just repeat what I have been told in the past: "My friendship with your husband has nothing to with you."

and quite frankly, the women that I am thinking of who said that to me, I really didn't get the feeling that they wanted to date him. I think it was more that because he was a management consultant and they were "professional" women, they saw the relationship as about networking and saw no use for me.

I don't want to allow a relationship between me and my partner and some other woman to the point where she would even have the balls to say that.

since raising the issue of my fiance's "special friend" resulted in his getting rid of her and proposing to me, then obviously I have taken the right road.


----------



## Lyris

I was thinking about this topic and also the one from a couple of months ago about men not having male friends. I've also read on other forums similar threads from women discussing their lack of real life friends. 

I wonder if part of the lack of understanding coming from people who don't have OSF is due to not valuing friends in general particularly highly. There was an exchange a few pages back where a poster mentioned he didn't need other people to fill any void, or whatever, and others saying contact with others was vital to them. That sounds like an introvert/extravert dichotomy to me.

I'm sure that's not the only component at work here, but it might be part of what's going on.


----------



## Thundarr

Created2Write said:


> SO true. As an example, the Swing Dance guy who I mentioned once before: *I can tell by the way he acts, the way he talks, and the we he looks at me that he thinks he can get any girl he wants. And I can tell he likes me, if only for the mere fact that I can dance really well, and I'm fairly attractive.* And he's a fantastic guy to dance with. He leads well, knows moves I'd never seen before we started dancing, and makes conversation instead of just staring at me like I'm some carnavor.
> 
> He flirts. So? I don't flirt back. His actions don't define mine. _I_ am in control of what I do and say, not _him_. Like you said, his hidden intentions mean nothing about what choices I make.
> 
> Same with my husband. Whenever a woman flirts with him, the first thing he does is say something nice about me. This is why there's trust between us. Even when the other person isn't around or close by, we enforce our boundaries. What those girls intend means nothing so long as my husband intends to remain faithful, which he does.


I don't understand why this type of character is someone worthy of your friendship? He has no respect for your marriage and certainly has none for your husband who is after all your partner.

Add to that, he sounds like a successful womanizer. Okay I get it that you trust yourself and you feel like you have the freedom to trust yourself. It still seems like there's no regard here his disrespect of your marriage. 

I admit this whole subject has a lot to do with trusting one's self and one's partner but a healthy respect for our ability to fail sometimes gets overshadowed by pride and entitlement to personal freedom and yes I am saying I think that in your case miss C2W. Ultimatums suck and they would not fly well at home but utter disrespect of human nature would not fly well either.

And I can't help but come back to what's most disturbing is that I think this guys is disrespectful to your marriage and your husband and I just don't understand why you would find someone like that desirable as a friend.


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## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> People are just going to pick because they can't understand. Just do what you do. Whatever.


That is a very true statement that_girl but it also sounds dismissive rather than respectful disagreement. Maybe it's not that at all. I do understand many of the scenarios you guys have talked about in this thread. Some of the OSF's you guys are talking about are long time friends, some of your work environments and social circles make it more common, etc.

Based on the details that I've learned in this discussion I've found quite a few pro OSF TAMERS who I think very similar to so it's surprising to me if some pro OSF will not find the good looking, sexy, flirty guy who likes C2W as starting to push the boundaries that most think are safe for marriage.


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## NextTimeAround

Yeah, Created2Write, your dance partner at some point may be moved to say: 

"My friendship with you has nothing to do with your husband."


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## that_girl

Thundarr said:


> That is a very true statement that_girl but it also sounds dismissive rather than respectful disagreement. Maybe it's not that at all. I do understand many of the scenarios you guys have talked about in this thread. Some of the OSF's you guys are talking about are long time friends, some of your work environments and social circles make it more common, etc.
> 
> Based on the details that I've learned in this discussion I've found quite a few pro OSF TAMERS who I think very similar to so it's surprising to me if some pro OSF will not find the good looking, sexy, flirty guy who likes C2W as starting to push the boundaries that most think are safe for marriage.


I wasn't talking about you. It's not personal to you. Some people just pick and pick and make other people suspicious just because they, themselves, couldn't deal.

Please stop taking my statements so personally.


----------



## Created2Write

FalconKing said:


> So you have no problem continuing to communicate and passionately dance with a man who flirted with you and even tested the waters?


No, I have no problem with it. His feelings and thoughts mean nothing to me, so long as he doesn't actually act on them. He tested the waters, saw my boundaries, and that was it. If he ever acted on them and tried to get anything to happen, my husband would be the first to know, and all of the communication and dancing would cease. 

I mean, unless there's some universal rule that says all arrogant guys who are good at dancing really _can_ get any girl they want, no matter how in love that woman is with her husband, I really don't see the problem.



> Do you feel like you have enough control to never let it go further? Even if you feel that way, why do you need to do this? Does it empower you do know that other men want you and you not succumb to that?


Yes, I feel that I have more than enough control to never let it go further. The guy is a good dancer. So? He's fun to dance with. He knows more about it than I do, and since my goal is always to get better, I'm eager to learn. He's a great leader, and he's friendly. He flirts sometimes, I don't flirt back. It's not like we hang out. We only see each other when I'm either in Swing Dance class at the college, or at the Open Swing night at the ballroom. And if I'm at the ballroom, my husband is always with me. 

Why do I need to dance? It's a blast! My husband is a beginner and I absolutely love dancing. It comes so naturally to me. Unless the guy actually goes beyond flirting, I'm gonna dance. My husband trusts me, and he's totally fine with it. He knows I'm gonna go dance with this guy behind his back. My husband is always there, unless it's class at school. 

Again, just because he flirts, doesn't mean I will. Just because he may have inappropriate intentions, doesn't mean I lack self-control. And no, it doesn't empower me with anything. _I like to dance_, and he's good at it. If it ever went further, it would be done. That would be it.


----------



## Lyris

I don't think C2W said this person was a friend, exactly. Just someone she knows who is fun to dance with and a bit flirty. So I don't see why she needs to worry too much about his character flaws, since she's only seeing him at one place to do one activity.

Edit: posted before I read the above.


----------



## FalconKing

Well to be fair That_girl, a lot of people who get involved in affairs don't really see it coming until they just have to talk to that guy/girl and will do so whether their SO likes it or not.


----------



## that_girl

Omg. I know. I KNOW.

I was just saying do what you do. People don't need to justify themselves online about a situation that hasn't even happened. Damn.


----------



## ATC529R

perfect case study on OSF. :sleeping:


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## Created2Write

ATC529R said:


> It is flirtacious to even continue communicating with him...much less dancing.
> 
> he sees green lights, but proceed with caution signs.


LOL. It's flirtatious just to talk to him? About dancing? I really do not see the connection here. 

I have three male friends who are great dancers. All three are flirtatious, two of them intentionally, and one just because he's himself. He's kind of flamboyant and doesn't mean to be. Anyway, we're all friends. My entire group of friends, saving two girls, are all Swing Dancers. We all know each other, and us girls all know that these three guys are incredibly flirtatious when it comes to dancing. You're saying that we're all flirting with these guys just by dancing and talking with them?


:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:


----------



## NextTimeAround

I remember my boyfriend in grad school did not like the idea that I would go to a party without him and dance with other men.

And he also was the type who did not remain friends with ex's. I knew I was history when he told he was engaged.


----------



## ATC529R

ATC529R said:


> and shame on all the women with so called guy "friends" that send out flirtatious vibes just so they feel special.....


:sleeping::sleeping:


----------



## ATC529R

Created2Write said:


> LOL. It's flirtatious just to talk to him? About dancing? I really do not see the connection here.
> 
> I have three male friends who are great dancers. All three are flirtatious, two of them intentionally, and one just because he's himself. He's kind of flamboyant and doesn't mean to be. Anyway, we're all friends. My entire group of friends, saving two girls, are all Swing Dancers. We all know each other, and us girls all know that these three guys are incredibly flirtatious when it comes to dancing. You're saying that we're all flirting with these guys just by dancing and talking with them?
> 
> 
> :scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:


I won't say anything more.... I have a feeling others will explain it.


----------



## Thundarr

that_girl said:


> I wasn't talking about you. It's not personal to you. Some people just pick and pick and make other people suspicious just because they, themselves, couldn't deal.
> 
> Please stop taking my statements so personally.


I didn't think it was directed toward me since I've been kind of moderate on this whole debate and see both sides of what's being said. 

Not like it matters though since the last I checked this is a forum where we post opinions. I'm not in a fetal position at the moment and wouldn't be if I thought it was directed at my poor little self so no need to console me.

I post was based purely out of disagreement that C2W should just do whatever.


----------



## jaquen

Lyris said:


> I was thinking about this topic and also the one from a couple of months ago about men not having male friends. I've also read on other forums similar threads from women discussing their lack of real life friends.
> 
> I wonder if part of the lack of understanding coming from people who don't have OSF is due to not valuing friends in general particularly highly. There was an exchange a few pages back where a poster mentioned he didn't need other people to fill any void, or whatever, and others saying contact with others was vital to them. That sounds like an introvert/extravert dichotomy to me.
> 
> I'm sure that's not the only component at work here, but it might be part of what's going on.


Thank God somebody said it.

Yes. In my time here at TAM, I continually run up against a seemingly never ending stream of people who seem to consider friendship of little, to no, value. Whenever anybody makes a thread about having no other male friends, the overwhelming majority of guys chiming in with declarations of being virtually friendless. And it's not a lamented state for most, it seems to be easily accepted, and by some thought of as totally natural. Such a state I find mortifying, as friendship is of utter importance to me. 

When the topic of OSF arise it is common to hear people say things like "why would I need an OSF? I have my spouse", or "what do you need with an OSF when your husband/wife is there". It's as if people think that one vagina, or penis, somehow trumps an entire person's humanity. I shouldn't have a female friend because my wife has apparently filled up the vagina quotient? Is there not entire, fully dimensional, complex and layered persons attached to those other vaginas in my life? I can so easily shut out HALF of the human race socially because I have a permanent vagina back at the house?


Friendship, real friendship, is of vital importance to me. It is to my wife as well. While the majority of our friends are of the same sex, we're not about to toss out the proven, incredible OSF we have just because they're packing different genitals than we are. It makes no sense at all, to either of us.

If there is a genuine problem with an OSF, end it. However if the only problem is that other people don't believe in them, will that's just not going to cut it.


----------



## Created2Write

Thundarr said:


> I don't understand why this type of character is someone worthy of your friendship? He has no respect for your marriage and certainly has none for your husband who is after all your partner.
> 
> Add to that, he sounds like a successful womanizer. Okay I get it that you trust yourself and you feel like you have the freedom to trust yourself. It still seems like there's no regard here his disrespect of your marriage.


*sigh* I feel like a broken record. Him being attracted to me does not mean he's a scum bag. Admittedly, his actions during the one slow dance were inappropriate, which was why I responded with what I did. After that, the flirting slowed way down and he actually was really nice. 

You're assuming a lot.



> I admit this whole subject has a lot to do with trusting one's self and one's partner but a healthy respect for our ability to fail sometimes gets overshadowed by pride and entitlement to personal freedom and yes I am saying I think that in your case miss C2W. Ultimatums suck and they would not fly well at home but utter disrespect of human nature would not fly well either.


"Miss"? LOL. 

So you think I'm proud and entitled. Fair enough. I am proud; I'm proud of myself, and how I handled the situation with that guy. I'm proud of myself to _always_ telling my husband about _anything_ and _everything_ that takes place between me and the men in my life, however irrelevant they may seem. I'm also proud of my husband who trusts me and believes me when I say, "It's just dancing". Cause really, if it weren't for that, this guy and I wouldn't even know each other. 

So yeah, based on that I feel that my husband and I are both entitled to have the friends we do.



> And I can't help but come back to what's most disturbing is that I think this guys is disrespectful to your marriage and your husband and I just don't understand why you would find someone like that desirable as a friend.


Honestly, outside of dancing we have minimal interaction. Perhaps I should have clarified, but after he tested things and got the response he did, the flirting slowed way down. I don't flirt back. I mean, I can see how people might think that flirting automatically means that a boundary has been crossed, but then people think that dancing with someone you're not married to is crossing a boundary too. 

The comment he made about touching my a$$ was disrespectful. But I stopped that kind of attitude right away, and it's not happened since. My husband is there when we go to Open Swing. My husband has seen all of his texts, I mean, I really fail to see the issue.


----------



## Created2Write

NextTimeAround said:


> Yeah, Created2Write, your dance partner at some point may be moved to say:
> 
> "My friendship with you has nothing to do with your husband."


???

His flirtation has nothing to do with _my_ reactions. He can flirt if he wants. We're dancing. It happens. But I can choose to either flirt back or not. And I don't.


----------



## FalconKing

Created2Write said:


> No, I have no problem with it. His intentions mean nothing to me, so long as he doesn't actually act on them. He tested the waters, saw my boundaries, and that was it. If he ever acted on them and tried to get anything to happen, my husband would be the first to know, and all of the communication and dancing would cease.


The first time wasn't enough? 



> I mean, unless there's some universal rule that says all arrogant guys who are good at dancing really _can_ get any girl they want, no matter how in love that woman is with her husband, I really don't see the problem.


You still dance with him.....



> Yes, I feel that I have more than enough control to never let it go further. *The guy is a good dancer. So? He's fun to dance with. He knows more about it than I do, and since my goal is always to get better, I'm eager to learn. He's a great leader, and he's friendly. He flirts sometimes, I don't flirt back*. It's not like we hang out. We only see each other when I'm either in Swing Dance class at the college, or at the Open Swing night at the ballroom. And if I'm at the ballroom, my husband is always with me.


:slap:
This man wants you. Has made it clear and here you are speaking positive of him and explaining why you obviously will continue to communicate and associate with him in the future. 



> Why do I need to dance? It's a blast! My husband is a beginner and I absolutely love dancing. It comes so naturally to me. Unless the guy actually goes beyond flirting, I'm gonna dance. My husband trusts me, and he's totally fine with it. He knows I'm gonna go dance with this guy behind his back. My husband is always there, unless it's class at school.


Whether you husband likes it or not you are going to dance with a man who has made it known he is attracted to you and will like to be romantic with you. He probably knows if said anything you would do it anyway so he goes along. 



> Again, just because he flirts, doesn't mean I will. Just because he may have inappropriate intentions, doesn't mean I lack self-control. And no, it doesn't empower me with anything. _I like to dance_, and he's good at it. If it ever went further, it would be done. That would be it.


Hasn't it gone far enough? Does he have to kiss you?


----------



## ATC529R

I would not dance OR text with a woman that openly flirted with me out of RESPECT for my wife.


----------



## Cletus

Created2Write said:


> The comment he made about touching my a$$ was disrespectful. But I stopped that kind of attitude right away, and it's not happened since. My husband is there when we go to Open Swing. My husband has seen all of his texts, I mean, I really fail to see the issue.


Drinking and driving doesn't guarantee you'll be in an accident, but it sure doesn't help the odds.

Or to use a phrase probably closer to your heart, pride goeth before a fall.

You'll never see it coming until it's too late.


----------



## Thundarr

Created2Write said:


> *sigh* I feel like a broken record. Him being attracted to me does not mean he's a scum bag. Admittedly, his actions during the one slow dance were inappropriate, which was why I responded with what I did. After that, the flirting slowed way down and he actually was really nice.


That's not a broken record. That's the other side of the record that we have not heard yet.

Oh yes I used "Miss" because I disagree on this very much but like many of your other post very much . I symbol of respect for you but not for the opinion I suppose.


----------



## Created2Write

FalconKing said:


> The first time wasn't enough?
> 
> 
> You still dance with him.....
> 
> 
> :slap:
> This man wants you. Has made it clear and here you are speaking positive of him and explaining why you obviously will continue to communicate and associate with him in the future.


*Dancing*. 




> Whether you husband likes it or not you are going to dance with a man who has made it known he is attracted to you and will like to be romantic with you. He probably knows if said anything you would do it anyway so he goes along.


I don't understand what you mean by the last statement. Are you implying that, despite what I say, I would go along in some kind of romantic entanglement with this guy? That my husband thinks I would too but goes along with it to make me happy?




> Hasn't it gone far enough? Does he have to kiss you?


According to some here it's inevitable. Just by dancing with him I've communicated my unending need for male attention, that I want him to flirt with me, blah blah blah. God forbid people in this world could actually practice self-control while dancing with someone of the opposite sex. And even if he can't, _I_ can.


----------



## jaquen

OK, here is what's making my really curious.

For those with strict boundaries around opposite sex interactions, beyond just friendships, how often do you actually run into people of the opposite sex flirting with you? Putting on the moves? 

If it's a rare, to near nonexistent, occurrence than I totally understand how it seems easy to just shut everyone down. But, in my experience, people flirt. A waitress might flirt. Go to a bar with your friends, and girls will come over and flirt. Co-workers flirt. That's just apart of life. Some of it is with the intention to go further, some of it is light, breezy, and not to be taken seriously.

If you have people flirting, or making advances, on even a semi-regular basis, how do you believe those situations should be handled. Should you always go up to people and be strict, and bold? Do you believe a little light flirting with a co-worker is a huge no-no? Do you let it go? Remain silent? 

Just want to get a feel for how people are handling being approached in their day to day lives.


----------



## Lyris

jaquen said:


> Thank God somebody said it.
> 
> Yes. In my time here at TAM, I continually run up against a seemingly never ending stream of people who seem to consider friendship of little, to no, value. Whenever anybody makes a thread about having no other male friends, the overwhelming majority of guys chiming in with declarations of being virtually friendless. And it's not a lamented state for most, it seems to be easily accepted, and by some thought of as totally natural. Such a state I find mortifying, as friendship is of utter importance to me.
> 
> When the topic of OSF arise it is common to hear people say things like "why would I need an OSF? I have my spouse", or "what do you need with an OSF when your husband/wife is there". It's as if people think that one vagina, or penis, somehow trumps an entire person's humanity. I shouldn't have a female friend because my wife has apparently filled up the vagina quotient? Is there not entire, fully dimensional, complex and layered persons attached to those other vaginas in my life? I can so easily shut out HALF of the human race socially because I have a permanent vagina back at the house?
> 
> 
> Friendship, real friendship, is of vital importance to me. It is to my wife as well. While the majority of our friends are of the same sex, we're not about to toss out the proven, incredible OSF we have just because they're packing different genitals than we are. It makes no sense at all, to either of us.
> 
> If there is a genuine problem with an OSF, end it. However if the only problem is that other people don't believe in them, will that's just not going to cut it.


It's not just TAM, J., It's forums generally. My theory is that you get way more introverts and people with social difficulties interacting on forums than you meet in the world. 

Disclaimer; I'm in no way suggesting that all those arguing against OSF are anti-social weirdos. I am saying that there might be some overlap between those who can't understand why you'd bother with OSF and those who don't care much about friendships generally. And I think you get more people who aren't very social in person interacting online.


----------



## Created2Write

ATC529R said:


> I would not dance OR text with a woman that openly flirted with me out of RESPECT for my wife.


How many times do I have to say that my husband and I have talked about it? It's like people here think my husband is in the dark. And if my husband had really not liked it, if it had truly made him uncomfortable, I wouldn't have danced with the guy. But because we communicate and actually explain what goes on with each other, he doesn't feel disrespected when I dance with this guy. 

Sheesh. I feel like I'm on trial or something. My actions don't effect people here, they effect myself and my husband. And the person I answer to is him. And we both think it's possible for a woman to dance with a guy, get flirted with, and _not_ fall to the floor and spread her legs. 

Anyway, I've said all that I need to say. I won't let what people say online define whether the boundaries my husband and I have agreed to are right or wrong.


----------



## NextTimeAround

I put a high value on friendships and I appreciate the work and time it takes to cultivate them. This is why I don't want to waste my time with women who use me as a conduit to facilitate their business networking or anything else that includes my husband and excludes me. And judging how naturally women observe certain boundaries around me and my partner will save me time.

One problem that I see with a lot of men is that they, as I call it, outsource their social life to one or two women.... to the point where they become scared to start dating...... lest, they are taken off the guest list and e-mail strong of their patron matrons. 

Ergo, men should spend time cultivating their friendships as well, and with women becoming a part of their social circle, so that they never become beholden to one or two people for their social life, whether male or female.


----------



## ATC529R

jaquen said:


> OK, here is what's making my really curious.
> 
> For those with strict boundaries around opposite sex interactions, beyond just friendships, how often do you actually run into people of the opposite sex flirting with you? Putting on the moves?
> 
> If it's a rare, to near nonexistent, occurrence than I totally understand how it seems easy to just shut everyone down. But, in my experience, people flirt. A waitress might flirt. Go to a bar with your friends, and girls will come over and flirt. Co-workers flirt. That's just apart of life. Some of it is with the intention to go further, some of it is light, breezy, and not to be taken seriously.
> 
> If you have people flirting, or making advances, on even a semi-regular basis, how do you believe those situations should be handled. Should you always go up to people and be strict, and bold? Do you believe a little light flirting with a co-worker is a huge no-no? Do you let it go? Remain silent?
> 
> Just want to get a feel for how people are handling being approached in their day to day lives.


How often it happens depends on how much we're out there. I work from home, so I am not out there. I can say with confidence that when in an office setting (before I got married) it happened with probably 75% of the women.---where they engaged.

waitresses, bar.....one time things are no big deal. 

A little flirting with a coworker is ok I guess because you HAVE to interact with them. 

but if I am going to go shoot darts or a painting class or something that is OPTIONAL and a woman is hitting on me I stop going. If I must go...I would at least cover my a$$ and let the wife know...."hey, so and so is makin moves on me" even if in a joking way. but let her know that xyz is not to be trusted.

not just keep on doing it like it's ok...because it's NOT.


----------



## Cletus

Created2Write said:


> Sheesh. I feel like I'm on trial or something.


No one ever wants to hear from the older, wiser, more experienced crowd that what they're doing is playing with fire. Nothing new there. 

I sincerely hope that you and all of your girlfriends get to 50 and not have to look back on events like this as an "oops" moment. I don't have a crystal ball, so I can't tell you what will happen. Only that, with 100% certainty, what you're doing can do nothing but increase the odds of you or your friends making a regrettable mistake.

We're not putting you on trial. We're trying to warn you about something to which you seem particularly oblivious.


----------



## jaquen

Created2Write said:


> LOL. It's flirtatious just to talk to him? About dancing? I really do not see the connection here.
> 
> I have three male friends who are great dancers. All three are flirtatious, two of them intentionally, and one just because he's himself. He's kind of flamboyant and doesn't mean to be. Anyway, we're all friends. My entire group of friends, saving two girls, are all Swing Dancers. We all know each other, and us girls all know that these three guys are incredibly flirtatious when it comes to dancing. You're saying that we're all flirting with these guys just by dancing and talking with them?
> 
> 
> :scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:


You're in the dance world. People who are not in the dance world won't really get this. I've got a couple of professional dancers as friends, and I've peaked inside the world a few times. The atmosphere can be charged, and flirting isn't uncommon at all, especially when the straight male dancers are so outnumbered by the straight female ones. If somebody is married, or in a serious relationship, you just get use to it. It becomes your norm. You don't drop a good dance partner just because they're a little flirty. It doesn't really work like that. It's even more unlikely if you're doing it professionally in a show, or out on tour (like one of my best friend is now, out on a Broadway tour). 

I think you're trying to explain an atmosphere that a lot of people are foreign to. So looking from the outside in, especially with people who have much stricter marital boundaries than you do, it looks like trouble, trouble, trouble. And it can be; it's not like all that flirting is innocent, or never comes to fruition. I totally get why people are pulling this :scratchhead: with you. It does sound dangerous, and it can be.

But it also, to me at least, sounds normal. If you're young, and/or attractive, and you want to dance, it's all part of the norm. You navigate the waters the best way you can, without alienating everyone, and you hope your fortitude, and your relationship, are strong enough to withstand the sea of hot bodies, open attitudes, and yes, flirtation.


----------



## NextTimeAround

TBH, a friend of mine started going to salsa dancing..... and she and her husband were on the way down......... so you all know the end or middle anyway to this story. I haven't heard from her in a while but she was living with him starting from her separation.


----------



## ATC529R

jaq

I keep getting the vibe that maybe the reason people on here don't understand is because they do not get flirted with.

if you're attractive it's part of the norm????

are you trying to say you only pretty people get flirted with?

I don't get it.


----------



## NextTimeAround

ATC529R said:


> jaq
> 
> I keep getting the vibe that maybe the reason people on here don't understand is because they do not get flirted with.
> 
> if you're attractive it's part of the norm????
> 
> are you trying to say you only pretty people get flirted with?
> 
> I don't get it.


I get flirted with. My fiancé has told me that he sees men checking me out. and we go to meetup activities, for example, he knows that when men approach me it's because they want to hit on me. I'm with him and I let them know immediately.


----------



## Lyris

Hey, I not only get flirted with, I have, on occasion, flirted!

Well, not for a while because I don't go out the way I used to now that I've got small children, and I don't really see the male friends I used to see a lot of much anymore. Also, I feel pretty old and haggard most of the time which is not particularly conducive to flirting.

But before kids? Yeah, I flirted with people sometimes. In a lighthearted kind of way. The impact on my marriage was zero.


----------



## that_girl

No one ever flirts with me. Except my husband. Maybe that's because I don't really leave the house LOL!


----------



## Lyris

People flirt with you all the time on TAM that_girl. That's why you come here isn't it? Yes, I've got your number missy.


----------



## that_girl

Oh yea. That's exactly why I come here.  I'd flirt with you though. Awww yea.


----------



## Coffee Amore

Created2Write said:


> How many times do I have to say that my husband and I have talked about it? It's like people here think my husband is in the dark. And if my husband had really not liked it, if it had truly made him uncomfortable, I wouldn't have danced with the guy. But because we communicate and actually explain what goes on with each other, he doesn't feel disrespected when I dance with this guy.
> 
> Sheesh. I feel like I'm on trial or something. My actions don't effect people here, they effect myself and my husband. And the person I answer to is him. And we both think it's possible for a woman to dance with a guy, get flirted with, and _not_ fall to the floor and spread her legs.
> 
> Anyway, I've said all that I need to say. I won't let what people say online define whether the boundaries my husband and I have agreed to are right or wrong.


You're not on trial and you shouldn't have to justify things in your marital relationship to a bunch of strangers on the internet. If they and their partners don't allow OSF in their marriage, so be it. That's their marriage and that's fine. They're entitled to have that because it's their relationship. However, to cast aspersions on people who have good marriages and have OSF and impute bad morals to them is absurd and speaks more about those people than you. 

Honestly, you shouldn't even answer any more of these posts because it's a cross examination you don't need.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> OK, here is what's making my really curious.
> 
> For those with strict boundaries around opposite sex interactions, beyond just friendships, how often do you actually run into people of the opposite sex flirting with you? Putting on the moves?
> 
> If it's a rare, to near nonexistent, occurrence than I totally understand how it seems easy to just shut everyone down. But, in my experience, people flirt. A waitress might flirt. Go to a bar with your friends, and girls will come over and flirt. Co-workers flirt. That's just apart of life. Some of it is with the intention to go further, some of it is light, breezy, and not to be taken seriously.
> 
> If you have people flirting, or making advances, on even a semi-regular basis, how do you believe those situations should be handled. Should you always go up to people and be strict, and bold? Do you believe a little light flirting with a co-worker is a huge no-no? Do you let it go? Remain silent?
> 
> Just want to get a feel for how people are handling being approached in their day to day lives.


I'll take a stab at this but obviously for us anti-OSF guys it's not the same since we've already filtered some based one out thoughts in this thread. I'll pretend that I don't have that filter and give my opinion for a moment.

All flirting is not created equal but in general, people who are seriously flirting with me and I know they're not just cutting up get put into my aquaintence category pretty quickly. That mean I'm nice but not sharing secrets and bonding or doing things they might percieve as a date.

Another general idea is if I have sexual attraction to them then I limit myself from becoming close friends.

If they're not joke type flirting but really giving me that "I want you now" vibe then it's a given that we're not getting coffee for the sake of friends bonding. We may have to be around each other but sometimes that's how it is.

The worst for me is if someone knows me and my wife and yet they still flirt then they might as well be calling my wife bad names. I just feels disrespectful to her.

Sorry it's sloppy. Gotta go meet my SSF and workout. See I got friends.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Coffee Amore said:


> You're not on trial and you shouldn't have to justify things in your marital relationship to a bunch of strangers on the internet. If they and their partners don't allow OSF in their marriage, so be it. That's their marriage and that's fine. They're entitled to have that because it's their relationship. However, to cast aspersions on people who have good marriages and have OSF and impute bad morals to them is absurd and speaks more about those people than you.
> 
> *Honestly, you shouldn't even answer any more of these posts because it's a cross examination you don't need*.


I used to be that free spirit like Created when I was younger. If anything, we are just telling her to watch it. and asking for more detail to see how similar various situations are.


----------



## that_girl

Coffee Amore said:


> You're not on trial and you shouldn't have to justify things in your marital relationship to a bunch of strangers on the internet. If they and their partners don't allow OSF in their marriage, so be it. That's their marriage and that's fine. They're entitled to have that because it's their relationship. However, to cast aspersions on people who have good marriages and have OSF and impute bad morals to them is absurd and speaks more about those people than you.
> 
> Honestly, you shouldn't even answer any more of these posts because it's a cross examination you don't need.


Dude. SO effing true. But you were nicer than I wanted to be. Bravo.


----------



## jaquen

ATC529R said:


> jaq
> 
> I keep getting the vibe that maybe the reason people on here don't understand is because they do not get flirted with.
> 
> if you're attractive it's part of the norm????
> 
> are you trying to say you only pretty people get flirted with?
> 
> I don't get it.


I didn't say anything about "pretty" people. It's not up to me to qualify personal attraction.

I'm merely asking if some of those who have major, uber strict boundaries with members of the OS are ever in a place regularly to test those boundaries. It can be very easy to take a strict, staunch approach to any, and all, attempts to flirt, or make advances, if you don't typically face those kinds of scenarios. 

But what if this happens to you as a norm? C2W, for example, is a very attractive woman. How is she suppose to be expected to avoid interacting with men who are going to inevitably express interest. Attractive women, with nice shapes, are approached almost every single day. In the case of her dancing, something she absolutely loves, is she suppose to drop a passion because she runs into flirty guys. As long as she dances there will likely ALWAYS be guys flirting and making passes. So that becomes HER norm, and she learns to navigate it. It's her risk to take, and she's got to make the best of the situation.

On this board we live in different realities. Certain circumstances that seem typical to one, are completely out of bounds to another. If I'm booked for work that requires me to do a make out, or love scene, then that's my norm. But others might say that I'm being a fool to allow another woman to slob me down. Normal for me, not so normal for others.

If you have single friends, and you go out to a bar. You'll inevitably run into a situation where women will become part of the group, and folks will flirt. Maybe you, a married man, will be flirted with. What do you do then? Haul tail from the bar every single time somebody bats their eyes at you?

I'm just trying to understand what lives people are living here. If you've got these strict boundaries on lives where the temptations are low, than that's an entirely different perspective than others who might be navigating lives where flirtation, or attempts to bed, are more their norm. How each handles the situations just might be different.


----------



## jaquen

Lyris said:


> Hey, I not only get flirted with, I have, on occasion, flirted!
> 
> Well, not for a while because I don't go out the way I used to now that I've got small children, and I don't really see the male friends I used to see a lot of much anymore. Also, I feel pretty old and haggard most of the time which is not particularly conducive to flirting.
> 
> But before kids? Yeah, I flirted with people sometimes. In a lighthearted kind of way. The impact on my marriage was zero.


Don't even get me started. I'm already in the dog house with enough TAMers over my loose, and dangerous marital ways! :rofl:


----------



## that_girl

You heathen!


----------



## Cletus

Coffee Amore said:


> Honestly, you shouldn't even answer any more of these posts because it's a cross examination you don't need.


If I was doing something I thought innocent and safe but a really large chunk of the world thought otherwise, particularly people who had actually seen it go horribly wrong, I'd want to know that, even if that involves answering some difficult and pointed questions.

YMMV.

I ride a motorcycle. Lots of folks think that behavior is too dangerous. I don't discredit their opinion - it IS dangerous. It's a danger I am willing to take on for my personal benefit. But I don't for one minute forget that I am very, very vulnerable when I ride.


----------



## Lyris

that_girl said:


> Oh yea. That's exactly why I come here.  I'd flirt with you though. Awww yea.


You're only human. I am pretty hot. In my mismatched pyjamas, old cardigan and with kids hanging off me. I just picked the muesli out of my teeth too. 

Sorry, was that OT?


----------



## that_girl

:rofl: I haven't even showered yet and I'm going to the market soon. Wtf-ever.


----------



## Lyris

Pfft, showering just washes away the pheromones.


----------



## NextTimeAround

jaquen said:


> If you have single friends, and you go out to a bar. You'll inevitably run into a situation where women will become part of the group, and folks will flirt. Maybe you, a married man, will be flirted with. What do you do then? Haul tail from the bar every single time somebody bats their eyes at you?


Back when I was single I remember mentioning to a married friend of mine how I went to a bar one evening during the week. I was with another woman and as soon we got through the door, some guys were calling us to their table. Ok, free champagne. And what was interesting is that these men made no secret of being married but also didn't seem to be hitting on us.

But I remember my married friend said that she would be furious if she knew her husband was doing that while he was away for work.


----------



## Open up now let it all go

ATC529R said:


> jaq
> 
> I keep getting the vibe that maybe the reason people on here don't understand is because they do not get flirted with.
> 
> if you're attractive it's part of the norm????
> 
> are you trying to say you only pretty people get flirted with?
> 
> I don't get it.


It's generally women that get flirted with. Men are usually the initiating party in this aspect. Sure I have a few very attractive male friends who seems to get hit on the other way around but the rest of us have to put in the effort ourselves if we want flirtatious action at all. So once in a relationship not actively seeking it out is more then enough to not enter any danger zones whatsoever.


----------



## jaquen

Lyris said:


> You're only human. I am pretty hot. In my mismatched pyjamas, old cardigan and with kids hanging off me. I just picked the muesli out of my teeth too.
> 
> Sorry, was that OT?


----------



## that_girl

Exactly.


----------



## FalconKing

Created2Write said:


> I don't understand what you mean by the last statement. Are you implying that, despite what I say, I would go along in some kind of romantic entanglement with this guy? That my husband thinks I would too but goes along with it to make me happy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to some here it's inevitable. Just by dancing with him I've communicated my unending need for male attention, that I want him to flirt with me, blah blah blah. God forbid people in this world could actually practice self-control while dancing with someone of the opposite sex. And even if he can't, _I_ can.


You like this guy. Or at least you don't want him out of your life. If you and your husband are good with it, whatever then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen

OK, for those who are critical of C2W's actions.

What do you reasonably expect her to do? Go to the dance teacher and asked to be partnered with a gay man?


----------



## that_girl

jaquen said:


> OK, for those who are critical of C2W's actions.
> 
> What do you reasonably expect her to do? Go to the dance teacher and asked to be partnered with a gay man?


I LOOOVE my gay men friends. Awwww yea.


----------



## FalconKing

jaquen said:


> OK, for those who are critical of C2W's actions.
> 
> What do you reasonably expect her to do? Go to the dance teacher and asked to be partnered with a gay man?


She can do what she wants. But if I was in that situation as a husband I would ask my wife to partner with somebody else. Or if she just had to dance and that dude was always around I ask her to join another dance studio. Or hell I would be her partner. If a dude wants my wife and he made it clear to her I don't see why she needs to communicate with him again no matter how good he is at what he does. I would do the same for her. I like to work out. If the gym I was going to had some chick flirting with me and then made it clear she was interested in me, there would be nothing for me to gain from continuing to communicate with her. She definately wouldn't be my workout partner and be texting me. I would even consider going to another gym.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

Thundarr said:


> Entropy had an EA that he himself was not aware he was in until he had withdrawls so I wish you guys would listen to his perspective first and disagree later. *It does apply to some people but I think he'd like for his words to prevent even one EA.* Yes many people with OSF are very naive but personally I don't think you (Jaq, Cof, that, etc) or most of the pro OSF TAMERS are naive about it.
> 
> What's unfortunate is that the people who would benifit from hearing that some people (ME) think OSF are risking are not on TAM to begin with until after the fact. Instead there are marrige and relationship aware posters (at least for this type of subject) who kind of know the dangers and manage them well.
> 
> Both sides of this subject are going to sound condescending to the other so I wish we would all get thicker skin so we can actually debate what the other is saying without verbal slapping.


This is 100% of my motivation.

Having been in an EA is nothing to be proud of. It is a failure. A flaw. Bad choices. Ego. Naivete .... and so on. Notice I did not say mistake. We are all capable of tunnel vision on these types of things. When you go through something like this and realize that your judgement was impaired ... it shakes you up. This said, I am certain what I went through a lot of people go through and do not ever realize that they went through an EA. They just think they fell out of love with their spouse. Mine was caught before that happened.

It is not just about sexual attraction. We love our friends. We should love our friends. Just how close should you be with opposite sex friends?
That is going to vary. But IMO judging this by sexual attraction alone is missing a very important aspect. This is emotional stuff.


----------



## jaquen

Entropy3000 said:


> I have blocked him. He can do the same if he wishes.


Who knew it was _that _deep? Oh well.


----------



## that_girl

Yea. I don't even know.


----------



## jaquen

FalconKing said:


> She can do what she wants. But if I was in that situation as a husband I would ask my wife to partner with somebody else. Or if she just had to dance and that dude was always around I ask her to join another dance studio. Or hell I would be her partner. If a dude wants my wife and he made it clear to her I don't see why she needs to communicate with him again no matter how good he is at what he does.


Yes, but what do you recommend when a spouse is involved in a passionate hobby, or profession, where they are most certainly bound to run into this kind of situation on a regular basis?


----------



## DangerousCurves

I think all opposite sex friendships have the POTENTIAL to become physical.


----------



## FalconKing

jaquen said:


> Yes, but what do you recommend when a spouse is involved in a passionate hobby, or profession, where they are most certainly bound to run into this kind of situation on a regular basis?


That's why I would never date strippers, movie stars, professional singer or models. It just too much of a headache.

But if I would recommend anything, it would be spending as much time together as possible and hope your spouse would not do things that would not make you uncomfortable. Every marriage is different. I don't think there is one thing that works for all people in that situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cletus

jaquen said:


> Yes, but what do you recommend when a spouse is involved in a passionate hobby, or profession, where they are most certainly bound to run into this kind of situation on a regular basis?


Be informed and act accordingly. Knowledge is power.

You can't control other's behavior, only your own. Understand the potential for problems, never minimize it. Understand that the other party's goals and desires might not match yours. Be firm in your reactions to flirting from other parties - don't engage them in it. Be friendly but cool in your attitude. Don't find yourself alone with the other person, especially if there is a reciprocal attraction. Recognize when you might be susceptible to making a mistake, such as a rough patch in your marriage, and be mindful that fleeting anger and resentment at your spouse are a bad basis for making changes. Understand that you WILL be attracted to others on occasion, and just like living in an earthquake zone, have an emergency response plan in place for when it happens.

Especially if you're a woman, understand that someone flirting with you could easily mean that they want to have sex with you. DO NOT FORGET THIS. It can be a powerful feeling, difficult to overcome. You get to live and enjoy life and the friends you make along the way. Just don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

Oh, and never EVER fall into the trap of thinking that it couldn't possibly happen to you.


----------



## jaquen

DangerousCurves said:


> I think all opposite sex friendships have the POTENTIAL to become physical.


My closest OSF is a lovely, 300+ pound, over 60 grandmother.

No, we do not have the potential to become physical.


----------



## TRy

Created2Write said:


> Perhaps I should have clarified, but after he tested things and got the response he did, the flirting slowed way down.


 Slowing way down is not the same as stopping it now is it? The other man is continuing to fish and you are allowing it. Every time that the other man flirts with you, he is disrespecting your husband and your marraige. The other man has made his intentions know, and yet because he is a better dancer than your husband, he is the alpha male on the dance floor that gets to continue to dance and flirt with you both when your husband is there and when he is not.



Created2Write said:


> The comment he made about touching my a$$ was disrespectful. But I stopped that kind of attitude right away, and it's not happened since. My husband is there when we go to Open Swing. My husband has seen all of his texts, I mean, I really fail to see the issue.


 The issue is that maybe you need to dance with the other man in class, but texting and dancing with the other man in Open Swing as he continues to flirt with you is something that you are doing because you want to. Your husband knows that if he ever slips up, you have another viable male option waiting ready in the wings. This is not a healthy balance of power.


----------



## Cletus

jaquen said:


> My closest OSF is a lovely, 300+ pound, over 60 grandmother.
> 
> No, we do not have the potential to become physical.


Um, yeah. That's why any question with the word "All" in it is pretty easy to dismiss outright.

I'm almost always talking about the larger statistical picture.


----------



## that_girl

I'm so blessed to have a husband who wants me to nurture my spiritual side and get emotionally intimate with others BASED on our beliefs. It's overwhelming sometimes how loved and connected I feel. There's nothing sexual about it...nor am I looking for that. I can go to temple or out with loved ones, discuss beliefs and theories and get passionate (about our beliefs) and deep with people, and then come home and eff my husband's mind out. 

I cannot live a life without all those facets of living and Life. It would be wasted indeed.


----------



## jaquen

TRy said:


> Slowing way down is not the same as stopping it now is it? The other man is continuing to fish and you are allowing it. Every time that the other man flirts with you, he is disrespecting your husband and your marraige. The other man has made his intentions know, and yet because he is a better dancer than your husband, he is the alpha male on the dance floor that gets to continue to dance and flirt with you both when your husband is there and when he is not.
> 
> The issue is that maybe you need to dance with the other man in class, but texting and dancing with the other man in Open Swing as he continues to flirt with you is something that you are doing because you want to. Your husband knows that if he ever slips up, you have another viable male option waiting ready in the wings. This is not a healthy balance of power.


She is an attractive woman, submerged in the dance world.

There will *always* be men flirting. It's not as simple as just going to your teacher, or director, and saying "Tommy won't stop flirting with me. Can you please give me another partner".

That's not realistic on any level for the world she's immersed in.

Cletus gave great advice above in regards to navigating the potential pitfalls more reasonably.


----------



## Entropy3000

Thundarr said:


> Jurassic Park 1993:
> Ian:Gee, the lack of humility before nature that's being displayed here,um...staggers me.
> 
> *Has it occurred to you that emotional bonds these OSF build when you sharing to their marital woes distracts them from their primary bond with their spouse.* I'm sure it's euphoric to your confidence and feels like your helping but this likely is considered inappropriate by some the OSF partners who've shared this with you.


:iagree:

Yes. Folks keep wanting to come back to "cheating" and "sexual" attraction. Those are both possible but not remotely what I have been talking about.

As usual you are very eloquent in stating this.


----------



## that_girl

So I can't share anything with anyone other than my husband? He works on the cars for hours...doesn't share that with me. He races cars, his passion! I support it...but it's not how I fulfill myself.

So by sharing my soul with people, and who I really am, I am cheating on my husband?

Psh. Ok.

ETA: OH! About marriages. Yea, I don't talk to my male friend about his marriage because he isn't married. We do talk about his ex...trying to process that. I don't talk about my marriage with anyone, really.


----------



## Cletus

that_girl said:


> So I can't share anything with anyone other than my husband? He works on the cars for hours...doesn't share that with me. He races cars, his passion! I support it...but it's not how I fulfill myself.
> 
> So by sharing my soul with people, and who I really am, I am cheating on my husband?
> 
> Psh. Ok.
> 
> ETA: OH! About marriages. Yea, I don't talk to my male friend about his marriage because he isn't married. We do talk about his ex...trying to process that. I don't talk about my marriage with anyone, really.


I've tried to avoid specific "rules" here, 'cause everyone's different, but I would state this as one:

Do not talk about the intimacies of your marriage with an OSF, _especially_ to complain about a problem or rest your head on a sympathetic shoulder. Save that for your counselor, priest, sister, or same sex friends. 

That's the fastest way I know to create an inappropriate emotional bond with someone that can lead to an affair.


----------



## Entropy3000

TRy said:


> It is a myth that all cheaters are born cheaters that go out seeking to cheat. This may be true for serial cheaters, but is not true of most cheaters. Studies show time and again that the vast majority of people that cheat are not serial cheaters and never intended to cheat when they first befriended what would eventually become their affair partner.
> 
> You are right if you are married to a serial cheater that is looking for the opportunity to cheat, but if you are not married to a serial cheater, you are safer if you limit the opportunities for the relationship to developer on an emotional level. Their is a big difference between meeting and interacting with people of the opposite sex and and bonding with them on a personal and emotional level.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## FalconKing

that_girl said:


> So by sharing my soul with people, and who I really am, I am cheating on my husband?
> 
> Psh. Ok.


Would you share you soul with people who made it clear they want to have sex with you though? Would you have your husband come with you when you share you soul with a guy that you know wants you? Suppose he's one of the best soul sharers you ever meet? Is that what you will tell your husband when you keep meeting the guy? And you because you know the guy wants you, but you are a strong enough not let it go there you husband should just accept this? Carry on then:yawn2:


----------



## that_girl

FalconKing said:


> Would you share you soul with people who made it clear they want to have sex with you though? Would you have your husband come with you when you share you soul with a guy that you know wants you? Suppose he's one of the best soul sharers you ever meet? Is that what you will tell your husband when you keep meeting the guy? And you because you know the guy wants you, but you are a strong enough not let it go there you husband should just accept this? Carry on then:yawn2:


What are you talking about? I already said that I have ONE male friend. No need for more. He and I have been friends since December of 2006 and never have flirted or anything of that sort. lol. We shared everything before I even met my husband. I don't deal with other men that way...kinda repulses me. My husband gets it all. My male friend just pushes me to keep growing. 

I am not stupid  I'm grown enough to know BS. I read vibes quickly. I don't have any desire to be close to other men at all.

I totally see your point. I wouldn't even let it get that close.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> OK, for those who are critical of C2W's actions.
> 
> What do you reasonably expect her to do? Go to the dance teacher and asked to be partnered with a gay man?


Are we twisting this to say that C2W dances for a living or that there are not other dance partners? 

She didn't make that case at all. Jaq, one of your examples in previous post was pertaining to an actor kissing another actress (or actor for that matter). No one here has implied that we think that's wrong. Several of us specifically throw in things to the contrary

Point is it feels like we're trying to redefine the original comments. Maybe we are also become more aware of the hidden details but I sense both.


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> Are we twisting this to say that C2W dances for a living or that there are not other dance partners?


It doesn't matter whether she dances for a living, or not. She's still in the dance world. Even at the amateur level, it's not realistic to become the person who is constantly requesting partner switches because you don't know how to handle flirting. In even a semi-professional, or serious amateur, situation you're going to basically told to deal with it, or leave.

Unless this is middle school, or you're being sexually harassed in a serious way, running to an instructor, choreographer, or director just is not going to fly.

She's choosing to dance. She has to deal with the unique set of circumstances that provides in a way that's realistic to this situation.



Thundarr said:


> Jaq, one of your examples in previous post was pertaining to an actor kissing another actress (or actor for that matter). No one here has implied that we think that's wrong.


I used that specifically to highlight that this is a practice that some people will never feel comfortable with. I'm trying to highlight the fact that the very world C2W is putting herself in comes with an atmosphere, and general attitude, that some people just won't get. What might seem outrageous, and beyond comfort, to some, might be totally normal to her. Even the idea of C2W, an attractive woman, dancing with an attractive, well built man, sans the flirting, might be too much for some husbands to handle.

Just trying to pinpoint the conflict here. In some circumstances, the realities we're living just might be what's causing the conflicts in our views. Falcon resolved this well in an earlier post where he just admitted that he wouldn't date somebody in certain professions.


----------



## lovelygirl

ATC529R said:


> How often it happens depends on how much we're out there. I work from home, so I am not out there. I can say with confidence that when in an office setting (before I got married) it happened with probably 75% of the women.---where they engaged.
> 
> waitresses, bar.....one time things are no big deal.
> 
> *A little flirting with a coworker is ok I guess because you HAVE to interact with them. *
> 
> but if I am going to go shoot darts or a painting class or something that is OPTIONAL and a woman is hitting on me I stop going. If I must go...I would at least cover my a$$ and let the wife know...."hey, so and so is makin moves on me" even if in a joking way. but let her know that xyz is not to be trusted.
> 
> not just keep on doing it like it's ok...because it's NOT.


I have to disagree. Can't you have friends without flirting?? Why do you have to flirt to be friends with her?? I didn't know that coworkers need to flirt in order to interact ...
Then it comes down to what you consider flirting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> She is an attractive woman, *submerged* in the dance world.
> 
> There will *always* be men flirting. It's not as simple as just going to your teacher, or director, and saying "Tommy won't stop flirting with me. Can you please give me another partner".
> 
> That's not realistic on any level for the world she's *immersed* in.
> 
> Cletus gave great advice above in regards to navigating the potential pitfalls more reasonably.


Again? I haven't heard her say she's submerged, immersed, entwined, consumed, engrossed, etc. These are your words to paint a picture to support a postition. 

C2W are you submerged and immersed in Dance and I trust you to answer honestly if you choose to answer. I do not however trust that you know these things about her Jaquen. If they are true then it would have been good info from the beginning.


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> Again? I haven't heard her say she's submerged, immersed, entwined, consumed, engrossed, etc. These are your words to paint a picture to support a postition.


No, actually they're not.

But I'll let C2W talk about the details of her own life, if she chooses to.


----------



## NextTimeAround

that_girl said:


> So I can't share anything with anyone other than my husband? He works on the cars for hours...doesn't share that with me. He races cars, his passion! I support it...but it's not how I fulfill myself.
> 
> So by sharing my soul with people, and who I really am, I am cheating on my husband?
> 
> Psh. Ok.
> 
> ETA: OH! About marriages. Yea, I don't talk to my male friend about his marriage because he isn't married. * We do talk about his ex...trying to process that. * I don't talk about my marriage with anyone, really.


In my situation, he and his ex were talking about me. Would you find that acceptable if you were the "me" in that situation?


----------



## that_girl

Cletus said:


> I've tried to avoid specific "rules" here, 'cause everyone's different, but I would state this as one:
> 
> Do not talk about the intimacies of your marriage with an OSF, _especially_ to complain about a problem or rest your head on a sympathetic shoulder. Save that for your counselor, priest, sister, or same sex friends.
> 
> That's the fastest way I know to create an inappropriate emotional bond with someone that can lead to an affair.



For reals. I agree. However, the first person I called when my husband left me was my male friend and he helped me patch myself back up and work on myself. He helped me save my marriage.

But no one else knew but him, a couple girlfriends, my sister and you guys. lol.


----------



## that_girl

NextTimeAround said:


> In my situation, he and his ex were talking about me. Would you find that acceptable if you were the "me" in that situation?


 NO no...we aren't talking about HER...just trying to talk about his issues with it all. I know her and she knows we're friends and he's been through a ton. Left NY to move back to CA because of her abuse and she admitted that to me when I asked her how she was doing. We love her. He still loves her. There is no bashing. Ever.

In your situation, talking about you to an ex is wrong  How is that the same? This isn't my ex...he's my friend who has been through some crazy shet. I talk to them both though, through Love.

But my marriage is just mine. I don't really talk about it much (ya'll know this!) ...I am me, married or not. If I talk about my marriage, it's with my husband. I've learned that much in my lifetime. Made some effed up choices in my past.


----------



## NextTimeAround

that_girl said:


> NO no...we aren't talking about HER...just trying to talk about his issues with it all. I know her and she knows we're friends and he's been through a ton. Left NY to move back to CA because of her abuse and she admitted that to me when I asked her how she was doing. We love her. He still loves her. There is no bashing. Ever.
> 
> In your situation, talking about you to an ex is wrong  How is that the same? *This isn't my ex...he's my friend *who has been through some crazy shet. I talk to them both though, through Love.
> 
> But my marriage is just mine. I don't really talk about it much (ya'll know this!) ...I am me, married or not. If I talk about my marriage, it's with my husband. I've learned that much in my lifetime. Made some effed up choices in my past.


My fiancé was convinced that his ex was his friend even she was advising him to drop me because according to her we hadn't had sex enough. She came to that conclusion because he told her about the first time we had sex. And then after that, every time he said he was going with me, she would ask him if I spent the night. Just another example of how OSFs can be a problem.


----------



## lovelygirl

NextTimeAround said:


> My fiancé was convinced that his ex was his friend even she was advising him to drop me because according to her we hadn't had sex enough. She came to that conclusion because he told her about the first time we had sex. And then after that, every time he said he was going with me, she would ask him if I spent the night. Just another example of how OSFs can be a problem.


Yes. OFS can be a problem. I've talked here about my close guy friend who'd literally tell me every single detail about his sexual life. To be honest it was not fair towards his GF and I had to tell him to stop because it sounded like he was selling her too cheaply. That's why having a close OSF is risky when it comes to sharing intimate details with them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Lyris said:


> It's not just TAM, J., It's forums generally. My theory is that you get way more introverts and people with social difficulties interacting on forums than you meet in the world.
> 
> Disclaimer; I'm in no way suggesting that all those arguing against OSF are anti-social weirdos. I am saying that there might be some overlap between those who can't understand why you'd bother with OSF and those who don't care much about friendships generally. And I think you get more people who aren't very social in person interacting online.


I think it's 2 things... the *Introvert* & *Extrovert* thing AND Alpha males who've slept around in their youth feel all men are unrestrained DOGS (which many are) because they couldn't keep it in their pants... their experience SPEAKS .....they have a hard time imagining a man who doesn't jump for some...
....PLUS they are a little more "*territorial*" of their woman....I know this from reading about Testosterone, the higher the Test, the more they may BE this way.... It's built into men -really. 

My husband is a through & through introvert.... as far as he is concerned he'd live on a deserted island with just me & our kids & have need of noone else...He jokes if he was Rich... he'd build a castle...with a mote with alligators & piranhas. 

He just doesn't need people .......

Me... I'm an extrovert and I like to socialize with others, even with the chaos it may bring at times, I just thoroughly enjoy it.


----------



## that_girl

NextTimeAround said:


> My fiancé was convinced that his ex was his friend even she was advising him to drop me because according to her we hadn't had sex enough. She came to that conclusion because he told her about the first time we had sex. And then after that, every time he said he was going with me, she would ask him if I spent the night. Just another example of how OSFs can be a problem.


And see, that is wrong. I am not my friend's ex. You situation is not really an OSF. That's an ex with a motive. Don't mistake the two.


----------



## that_girl

lovelygirl said:


> Yes. OFS can be a problem. I've talked here about my close guy friend who'd literally tell me every single detail about his sexual life. To be honest it was not fair towards his GF and I had to tell him to stop because it sounded like he was selling her too cheaply. That's why having a close OSF is risky when it comes to sharing intimate details with them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am seeing how different my friend and I are. We are close. We share a ton, but we've never talked about sex together. Ew. That would be awkward. I'd kick his skinny ass.


----------



## Thundarr

lovelygirl said:


> Yes. OFS can be a problem. I've talked here about my close guy friend who'd literally tell me every single detail about his sexual life. To be honest it was not fair towards his GF and I had to tell him to stop because it sounded like he was selling her too cheaply. That's why having a close OSF is risky when it comes to sharing intimate details with them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I remember you saying this once before on a thread and I remember commenting how much I like the fact that you felt uncomfortable that he was talking poorly about his SO to you and that you called him out on it (I think). Bravo again.

Edit: Actually I remember taking up for you because everyone thought you were married and took your comments out of context


----------



## lovelygirl

that_girl said:


> I am seeing how different my friend and I are. We are close. We share a ton, but we've never talked about sex together. Ew. That would be awkward. I'd kick his skinny ass.


Despite disrespectful it's also awkward. I agree. Too much info. Too many details are out in the open. Poor girls didn't have any privacy .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## that_girl

lovelygirl said:


> Despite disrespectful it's also awkward. I agree. Too much info. Too many details are out in the open. Poor girls didn't have any privacy .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yea, and the only penis I want to think about is my man's. :rofl: I don't want to hear about my guy friend and sex. No. He and I have shet to do and THAT conversation isn't one of them.


----------



## TRy

jaquen said:


> It's not as simple as just going to your teacher, or director, and saying "Tommy won't stop flirting with me. Can you please give me another partner".
> 
> That's not realistic on any level for the world she's immersed in.


 Since contrary to your comment to my post, I specifically did not require her to go to the teacher in class when I stated that "maybe you need to dance with the other man in class", your response was disingenuous and avoided addressing the real issue that I was discussing. The real issue is that you have not addressed is that she is still "texting and dancing with the other man in Open Swing as he continues to flirt with" her (as he openly disrespects her husband and her marraige) because she wants to not because she has to. And she wants to because in "the world she's immersed in" the other man as the superior dancer to her husband is the alpha male that she wants to be seen with. I suspect that her husband is a nice guy that does not want to appear controlling so he is sitting back and letting this happen. She can dance all she wants with any of the men that do not disrespect her husband and her marraige, but out of respect for her husband, she should not text or dance with this other man unless she has to in class.

Although we do not agree on OSF, I have until now understood your point of view and am surprised by your post on this. I think that maybe you need to step back from your bias toward the arts and look again at what she and I posted in this particular case.


----------



## jaquen

NextTimeAround said:


> *My fiancé was convinced that his ex was his friend even she was advising him to drop me *... Just another example of how OSFs can be a problem.


That's not an OSF problem. What kind of man would think his ex, who advises him to dump his fiance, is a "friend".

I don't care what she did. If I found out my fiancee, before we are even married, is staying friends with an ex who is bad mouthing me, that would swiftly become my ex-fiancee.

That woman can think whatever she wants to about you. She ain't making pledges to cherish you above all others. The question is why would be stay "friends" with her a moment longer after that happened?


----------



## jaquen

TRy said:


> The real issue is that you have not addressed is that she is still "texting and dancing with the other man in Open Swing as he continues to flirt with"


Of course she's going to continue dancing with him, and texting. He's her dance partner. Maybe it doesn't mean anything to you, to so causally flip off a good dance partner, but obviously it means something TO HER. And you are not her. It means nothing whatsoever to you to find a dance partner who clicks with you, especially in a partnered dance genre. But this is a passion for her, and it's not so easy to go "oh, every man who flirts with me will get quickly dumped". She might be searching for a good dance partner for years if that is her criteria. 

If I'm in a scene study class, and am paired with a woman who has flirted with me, but not crossed any major boundaries toward harassment, I'm going to keep acting with her, AND, gasp, I might have to text her from time to time.

You don't throw away a good dance partner, someone you're in an artistic relationship with, because they hit on you a couple times. That NOT how it works at all.

C2W never said that this man was constantly sexually harassing her. She stated clearly that he took his shot, she handled it, and things cooled off.



TRy said:


> And she wants to because in "the world she's immersed in" the other man as the superior dancer to her husband is the alpha male that she wants to be seen with.


Dear. God.


----------



## that_girl

jaquen said:


> Dear. God.


:rofl:


----------



## NextTimeAround

jaquen said:


> That's not an OSF problem. *What kind of man would think his ex, who advises him to dump his fiance, is a "friend".*
> 
> I don't care what she did. If I found out my fiancee, before we are even married, is staying friends with an ex who is bad mouthing me, that would swiftly become my ex-fiancee.
> 
> That woman can think whatever she wants to about you. She ain't making pledges to cherish you above all others. The question is why would be stay "friends" with her a moment longer after that happened?


We weren't engaged at that time. Perhaps one could say that he was multi dating the two of us even though she was advantaged with more information about his dating activities than I was...... and of course, she was already dating another guy. Would that make her appear partial or impartial to his dating choices?

This is the problem with the whole web of types of relationships that men and woman can have with each other. Because anything is possible, it's not always clear what you have.

ETA: I get the feeling that a lot of women who befriend men will try to influence the man's opinion of the women he's dating or even married to. Many of the examples here and on other message boards I have seen, is that the wife realises that their husband's new friend knows all about her. May have already said something negative about her (the wife) and can see evidence that her husband is acting on that advice.

My exH on a couple of occassions would play messenger for something negative remark that one os his female friends had made about me.


----------



## Cletus

jaquen said:


> Dear. God.


What now? I can't even step into the shower...


----------



## jaquen

NextTimeAround said:


> We weren't engaged at that time. Perhaps one could say that he was multi dating the two of us even though she was advantaged with more information about his dating activities than I was...... and of course, she was already dating another guy. Would that make her appear partial or impartial to his dating choices?


What? So you keep using this situation with the fiance and the ex to demonstrate the dangers of OSF...

And yet now you're revealing that he wasn't fianceed to you, and was actually "multi dating" you and her at the same time?

Like I said before, not an OSF problem at all.


----------



## NextTimeAround

jaquen said:


> What? So you keep using this situation with the fiance and the ex to demonstrate the dangers of OSF...
> 
> And yet now you're revealing that he wasn't fianceed to you, and was actually "multi dating" you and her at the same time?
> 
> Like I said before, not an OSF problem at all.


It is an OSF problem
1) he has no right to talk about intimate details about our relationship to another woman... it's just common human decency
2) he has always tried to pass her off as "just a friend" despite the fact that some of the things they did together looked like bf / gf type activities
3) after he and I became exclusive, she and he were still in contact without his telling me; some contact had to do with getting together even though it didn't happen. 

Trying to decided whether I could I live with that relationship was what brought me here.


----------



## MattMatt

Goldmember357 said:


> I do not think "Friend zone" exists. *I think that is something men just tell themselves to make the female look cruel for not returning similar feelings.*
> 
> I believe all you need in order for a relationship to ensue is a spark that can range from physical to emotional connection/attraction.
> 
> Generally speaking men and women do not maintain a very good strong relationship with 1 individual of the opposite sex unless they are physically and mentally attracted to them.
> 
> Studies have been done to the death on this.
> 
> There is a belief that "women are better at not mixing friendship and sex" and that women can be friends with men but men cannot be friends with women.
> 
> I do not believe this to be true overly true in regards to that "special" one opposite sex friend who has hung around for years. I believe women are just as likely to desire their friend but are less likely to go for him or bring up their feelings. I feel women are just as likely to engage in an affair with a close friend they have had for years and i feel women are just as likely to be pushed by curiosity.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a rare instance
> 
> I've read that relationships formed in the sandbox day's can avoid this issue. However i have overwhelmingly heard and read that males and females who make and maintain a special opposite sex friend usually are attracted to one another and will partake in a physical and emotional relationship at some point.


Excuse me, but what you posted cannot be right, can it? If a woman tells you that the friend zone exists, then how can you deny its existence and say: 


> I think that is something men just tell themselves to make the female look cruel for not returning similar? feelings


----------



## jaquen

NextTimeAround said:


> It is an OSF problem
> 1) *he has no right *to talk about intimate details about our relationship to another woman... it's just common human decency
> 2) *he has always tried to pass her off *as "just a friend" despite the fact that some of the things they did together looked like bf / gf type activities
> 3) after he and I became exclusive, she and he were still in contact *without his telling me*; some contact had to do with getting together even though it didn't happen.
> 
> Trying to decided whether I could I live with that relationship was what brought me here.


Read what you wrote. This isn't an OSF issue. This is a boyfriend-is-emotionally-cheating-and-you-are-blaming-the-woman issue.

As long as you're concentrating on the evils of OSF, you're missing the picture.

Why even think about marrying a man who is already "multi dating" you with an ex, having an EA, and lying?


----------



## TRy

jaquen said:


> Of course she's going to continue dancing with him, and texting. He's her dance partner.


 Read her past posts. He is not her dance partner. He is just someone that she is sometimes paired with in class. She even said that "I decided then and there, if his hand moved even an inch down toward my butt, I would intentionally step on his feet and leave class and never dance with him again" showing that not dancing with him is a realistic option even in class.



jaquen said:


> C2W never said that this man was constantly sexually harassing her. She stated clearly that he took his shot, she handled it, and things cooled off.


 He still takes his shots, he just does it less. In talking about the other man she stated that "I can tell by the way he acts, the way he talks, and the we he looks at me that he thinks he can get any girl he wants. And I can tell he likes me, if only for the mere fact that I can dance really well, and I'm fairly attractive." and "He flirts. So? I don't flirt back."


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> That's not an OSF problem. What kind of man would think his ex, who advises him to dump his fiance, is a "friend".
> 
> I don't care what she did. If I found out my fiancee, before we are even married, is staying friends with an ex who is bad mouthing me, that would swiftly become my ex-fiancee.
> 
> That woman can think whatever she wants to about you. She ain't making pledges to cherish you above all others. The question is why would be stay "friends" with her a moment longer after that happened?


Posts like the remind me that we have common ground.


----------



## NextTimeAround

jaquen said:


> Read what you wrote. This isn't an OSF issue. This is a boyfriend-is-emotionally-cheating-and-you-are-blaming-the-woman issue.
> 
> As long as you're concentrating on the evils of OSF, you're missing the picture.
> 
> Why even think about marrying a man who is already "multi dating" you with an ex, having an EA, and lying?


He is not multidating me now. And I am not blaming the woman. I am blaming his choices.

I think this is an OSF issue because he wanted to continue the charade that they were friends even though he admitted that he knew it would be a bad idea to introduce us.

Some people do have a tendency to hang on to ex's (even fly by night ones) and try to reposition them as OSFs. 

Even if you have not been a party to this type of triangle, I still see it as a ripple that is relevant to this discussion.


----------



## Open up now let it all go

I'm on a salsa class and some old pervert apparently dances a little too intimately with my gf but apparently he does that to all women. I really can't be arsed to drop that fun dance class - it only occurs like 1-2 minutes occasionally. Withint a couple of weeks were in a new class and he'll be gone forever.


----------



## jaquen

TRy said:


> Read her past posts. He is not her dance partner. He is just someone that she is sometimes paired with in class. She even said that "I decided then and there, if his hand moved even an inch down toward my butt, I would intentionally step on his feet and leave class and never dance with him again" showing that not dancing with him is a realistic option even in class.
> 
> He still takes his shots, he just does it less. In talking about the other man she stated that "I can tell by the way he acts, the way he talks, and the we he looks at me that he thinks he can get any girl he wants. And I can tell he likes me, if only for the mere fact that I can dance really well, and I'm fairly attractive." and "He flirts. So? I don't flirt back."


So what do you propose she do? She drops the dance partner. OK. And what happens when it inevitably happens again?


----------



## jaquen

NextTimeAround said:


> He is not multidating me now. And I am not blaming the woman. I am blaming his choices.
> 
> I think this is an OSF issue because he wanted to continue the charade that they were friends even though he admitted that he knew it would be a bad idea to introduce us.
> 
> Some people do have a tendency to hang on to ex's (even fly by night ones) and try to reposition them as OSFs.
> 
> *Even if you have not been a party to this type of triangle,* I still see it as a ripple that is relevant to this discussion.


Oh I have been party to this type of triangle, trust me. My first, and great, loves both involved triangles. 

And I still think this isn't an OSF issue. There was no "friend" in this situation. There was you, your boyfriend, and his ex, whom he still was in love with, and he wanted to have his cake and eat it to. I don't care what he called her, she was never his "friend". She actually was barely his "ex".


----------



## Cletus

Open up now let it all go said:


> I'm on a salsa class and some old pervert apparently dances a little too intimately with my gf but apparently he does that to all women. I really can't be arsed to drop that fun dance class - it only occurs like 1-2 minutes occasionally. Withint a couple of weeks were in a new class and he'll be gone forever.


Sure, but there's nothing wrong with a discreetly applied taser to the testes in the meantime.

I always have an intellectual problem with a situation where everyone in the room knows something is wrong yet no one is willing to do anything about it. It feels like it's just empowering the pervert.


----------



## NextTimeAround

jaquen said:


> Oh I have been party to this type of triangle, trust me. My first, and great, loves both involved triangles.
> 
> *And I still think this isn't an OSF issue.* There was no "friend" in this situation. There was you, your boyfriend, and his ex, whom he still was in love with, and he wanted to have his cake and eat it to. I don't care what he called her, she was never his "friend". She actually was barely his "ex".


Because he tried to pass her off as "just a friend" and harboured the possibility of seeing each other again, I say it is an OSF issue. In fact, anytime someone uses the label "friend" in matters of relationships, I would say then it is an OSF issue. 

If had called her something else, like a "harassing harpie" then it would have been a harassing harpie issue.

This is the problem with the word and meaning of "friend." It just covers way too much ground. Some people call the person that they are ****ing "just a friend." And then that same person may call the guy from university that they go to the cinema with "just a friend." This is just the world we live in.


----------



## Open up now let it all go

Cletus said:


> Sure, but there's nothing wrong with a discreetly applied taser to the testes in the meantime.
> 
> I always have an intellectual problem with a situation where everyone in the room knows something is wrong yet no one is willing to do anything about it. It feels like it's just empowering the pervert.


Yeah, you're right indeed. Just pointing out that this stuff happens in dance classes all the friggin time no matter who you are.


----------



## Thundarr

TRy said:


> Read her past posts. He is not her dance partner. He is just someone that she is sometimes paired with in class. She even said that "I decided then and there, if his hand moved even an inch down toward my butt, I would intentionally step on his feet and leave class and never dance with him again" showing that not dancing with him is a realistic option even in class.
> 
> He still takes his shots, he just does it less. In talking about the other man she stated that "I can tell by the way he acts, the way he talks, and the we he looks at me that he thinks he can get any girl he wants. And I can tell he likes me, if only for the mere fact that I can dance really well, and I'm fairly attractive." and "He flirts. So? I don't flirt back."


I don't know. It's dissapointing that people keep trying to rewrite this. It wasn't very difficult to understand. Maybe I expect too much since it's human nature to posture and embellish. Guilty myself on occasion.


----------



## TRy

jaquen said:


> So what do you propose she do? She drops the dance partner. OK. And what happens when it inevitably happens again?


 Right now she says that he flirts but she does not flirt back. That is not good enough. She needs to tell him that she is married and does not appreciate the flirting and that all flirting needs to stop. If he does not comply, then she needs drop him as a dance partner when not in class and to stop responding to his texts. In my world I would drop him completely out of my life, but I am trying to understand your world in my answer.


----------



## that_girl

NextTimeAround said:


> Because he tried to pass her off as "just a friend" and harboured the possibility of seeing each other again, I say it is an OSF issue. In fact, anytime someone uses the label "friend" in matters of relationships, I would say then it is an OSF issue.
> 
> If had called her something else, like a "harassing harpie" then it would have been a harassing harpie issue.


Yea, that's just shady, crappy behavior.

Shady people do shady things. That ex was shady.


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> I don't know. It's dissapointing that people keep trying to rewrite this.


Considering that C2W agrees with my take on the situation, I doubt I'm "rewriting" anything.

It seems that those of you who aren't listening to her perspective, or may not be privy to further details, are the ones who are out of step with the points she is trying to make.


----------



## NextTimeAround

that_girl said:


> Yea, that's just shady, crappy behavior.
> 
> Shady people do shady things. *That ex was shady.*


this is what I mean when I refer to predatory women.


----------



## that_girl

NextTimeAround said:


> this is what I mean when I refer to predatory women.


Yup and men too. Anyone with a bad motive is shady.


----------



## jaquen

TRy said:


> Right now she says that he flirts but she does not flirt back. That is not good enough. She needs to tell him that she is married and does not appreciate the flirting and that all flirting needs to stop. If he does not comply, then she needs drop him as a dance partner when not in class and to stop responding to his texts. In my world I would drop him completely out of my life, but I am trying to understand your world in my answer.


I'm pretty sure C2W, and her husband, are the only people who get to define what is "good enough" for them.

She handled the situation to her satisfaction. That's all that matters.


----------



## jaquen

that_girl said:


> Yea, that's just shady, crappy behavior.
> 
> Shady people do shady things. That ex was shady.


The ex was shady.

But so was the "fiancee".

I'm totally baffled by the fact that the ex is being strung up as a predator, and the cheating boyfriend is still in the running for husband material...


----------



## NextTimeAround

jaquen said:


> The ex was shady.
> 
> But so was the "fiancee".


I agree that the fiancé _(masculine)_ was shady. this is why we had to have a discussion. and this is why TAM has been very helpful for me in sorting out what I can reasonably expect and what I ultimately want.

But still, I feel that that the dilemma that I was in before I sorted it out goes under the rubric of OSFs.

TBH, I've been reading about the dating habits of 20 and 30 something women. And what this women did matches the text books perfectly. 

If you guys can't fathom having a relationship with a woman who thinks it's ok to go out with another guy one on one, take trips together (share a hotel room ) and so on, well then, with one of these nubile young'uns then proceed caution.


----------



## jaquen

Well then this just be my particular blind spot, because I have never been able to understand the women who go on, and on, and on about the predatory, shady, suspect behavior of other women...

While not judging their boyfriends, fiances, and husbands by the same criteria.

Unless a woman is raping your husband, he's right there in the inappropriate (however you define it) behavior with her. You can't have an affair in a vacuum of one.

So this just might be something I can't even begin to comprehend. I never have been able to.


----------



## TRy

jaquen said:


> I'm pretty sure C2W, and her husband, are the only people who get to define what is "good enough" for them.
> 
> She handled the situation to her satisfaction. That's all that matters.


 Since she put it forth as an example in stating an opinion, it is no longer about just them and I have the right to call her out on it when disagreeing with her opinion. BTW, in looking at what you stated above, you could have said the same exact thing if she was in an obvious emotional affair, but that does not make it right.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> Considering that C2W agrees with my take on the situation, I doubt I'm "rewriting" anything.
> 
> It seems that those of you who aren't listening to her perspective, or may not be privy to further details, are the ones who are out of step with the points she is trying to make.


You know better than that. None of us are privy to more than what's been written but we are not re-writing it like you did 3 or 4 times, two of which I pointed out thinking you would realize what your were doing.

Instead you keep defending embellished circumstances that have not been presented by person you're taking up for. If you say "what if...." is different than just plain changing it for your argument.

I could generate a bulleted list of what she did and and also of what you have embellished and assumed but I already know the embellishment will continue until eventually the argument is "lets quit picking on C2W". It doesn't have to be that way. Explain why she's not naive and why our opinions are so wrong but without making stuff up.


----------



## NextTimeAround

jaquen said:


> Well then this just be my particular blind spot, because I have never been able to understand the women who go on, and on, and on about the predatory, shady, suspect behavior of other women...
> 
> *While not judging their boyfriends, fiances, and husbands by the same criteria.
> 
> Unless a woman is raping your husband, he's right there in the inappropriate (however you define it) behavior with her. *You can't have an affair in a vacuum of one.
> 
> So this just might be something I can't even begin to comprehend. I never have been able to.


It goes both ways. I would like to rid my life of predatory women. and that's why I am here, to recognise sooner rather than later the behavior that I would like to ultimately avoid.

Entropy has expressed in a post on another as well that there is adequate blame to serve around between the partner and the OP. Predatory women should not act in a predatory manner. (and I focus on other women because I am a woman seeking hetero relationships. ) 

In any case, I did take the issue up directly with my fiance._ -- that's how he became my fiance --_ and he dealt with it in a manner that I approve of.

I am here because the road to get to that point that I describe above needed assistance...... especially in this life where male / female friendships are supposed to be so cool


----------



## Entropy3000

Tony55 said:


> I think everyone here has their own definition of what constitutes an opposite sex friend. It might help if posters put their personal OSF contact in context; example, I have an OSF who I talk to weekly, or see daily, or talk to once a year, etc.
> 
> I have many friends who I rarely talk to and many I talk to daily; obviously the ones I talk to daily I know more intimately (in the present). Would I expect a person to have an issue with their spouse talking to an OSF daily? Yes. Annually? no. Work acquaintance in the context of work? no.
> 
> Some of these people disagreeing on here aren't even disagreeing on the same thing.
> 
> T


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> You know better than that. None of us are privy to more than what's been written but we are not re-writing it like you did 3 or 4 times, two of which I pointed out thinking you would realize what your were doing.
> 
> Instead you keep defending embellished circumstances that have not been presented by person you're taking up for. If you say "what if...." is different than just plain changing it for your argument.
> 
> I could generate a bulleted list of what she did and and also of what you have embellished and assumed but I already know the embellishment will continue until eventually the argument is "lets quit picking on C2W". It doesn't have to be that way. Explain why she's not naive and why our opinions are so wrong but without making stuff up.


If you believe I am "embellishing", "rewriting", and "making stuff up" about C2W's life, that's perfectly fine.

If she comes back to this thread, I will leave it up to her to determine exactly who she believes best grasps the situation she is in.



Thundarr said:


> We are defining our opinions only based on her input. Gee I thought that's what we all supposed to do.


Since when is typical on TAM for a poster to state that they had a problem, they dealt with the problem, and the marriage is not suffering from said problem...

And people stil go on for pages, and pages...and pages continuing trying to solve an already solved problem? Typical on this board if a person says "thanks guys, but I solved the problem" then people stop offering solutions.

C2W didn't ask for help. She didn't say her marriage was in flames over an OSF, a flirting dance partner, or anything in that realm. She made it clear several pages ago that the situation was handled to their satisfaction, and she was wondering why people still kept treating her like she did something wrong, or had to justify and defender her actions. I mean how in the world is a poster going to flat out say, about somebody else's life, that such and so action is just "not good enough"?

So what exactly is going on here? Why the overzealous attempt to help somebody who isn't asking for it?


----------



## that_girl

Travel and share a hotel room? 

Holy crap. No.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> Since when is typical on TAM for a poster to state that they had a problem, they dealt with the problem, and the marriage is not suffering from said problem...
> 
> And people stil go on for pages, and pages...and pages continuing trying to solve an already solved problem? Typical on this board if a person says "thanks guys, but I solved the problem" then people stop offering solutions.
> ------


We are debating scenarios and concepts like you and I have been doing on the "confessions of a porn hater". That's about 25 pages and we both know the OP does not like what we think about the subject. She said you and her speak different languages which C2W has not yet told me on this one.

C2W merely gave us a real world use-case.



jaquen said:


> I mean how in the world is a poster going to flat out say, about somebody else's life, that such and so action is just "not good enough"?


Your argument is going to look pretty flimsy if I points to any one of many comments on that other thread that you made to the OP which were quite insulting to her.


----------



## meson

Entropy reminded us that we should listen to Tony55 and define what an OSF is to us. As has been noted there is some agreement of positions and most of the discussion has been based around case study specifics. To me this highlights the issue. What is mostly being argued is the type and extent of boundaries required. Each of us and each of our marriages use different boundaries. 

I am pro OSF but there are women whom I have cut off but others whom even though I have feelings for are still friends of mine and my wife. Here are my thoughts which were stated in another thread:

Opposite sex friends work for us because we have boundaries, openness and respect. Before I elaborate on that it is important to note what types of friends I am talking about. There are acquaintances, people you know and talk to but don't really do or share anything with. There are friends that you do entertaining things and perhaps you open up a bit of your personal life to but remain guarded in many respects. There are close friends who are allowed to see a lot of your personal life, emotional thoughts with whom you share special events with. And there are the very close friends (BFF) with whom you are completely open and share almost anything with. 

My wife is my closest very close friend and I have a couple of male friends who are able to see the majority of who I am. For me OSFs are not in this category but they can be close friends just not very close. So my women friends can share special events and times, some emotional intimacy but never at a level that competes with the special friendship I have with my wife. 

One of the major boundaries we have include limiting the closeness of an OSF. There is a baseline set by our same sex close friends of what we do and say. This baseline should not be exceeded. If you give presents or special favors to your same sex friends then it is allowed with opposite sex friends to the same degree. It quickly becomes obvious when you do things that favor someone over the baseline. This includes typical time spent with friends as well. 

Another boundary is no escalation of contact. One of the signs that someone is more than a friend is that contact with them continually increases until its a threat to the marriage. Too much time with an OSF is not good and it needs to be limited. There are a lot of smaller boundaries like no complaining about the marriage or the spouse to an OSF, limited touching, limited emotional confidences etc.

Openness. There should be no secret friends and all of your interactions with an OSF should be transparent and verifiable to your spouse. Open access to email, Facebook or any other means of communication. Your spouse should know your friends and have opportunities to meet and be friends with them as well. Openness feeds into the next point. 

Respect. We need to respect the gut feelings of our spouses even if we disagree with them. The spouse is in a unique position to see your behavior and how it changes in the company of an OSF. In addition they can see the behavior of your OSF and can be in tune with OSF motives a bit better than you can frequently. So if your spouse is uneasy with your relationship, you need to respect it and make adjustments accordingly. You need to give your spouses opinion priority over your OSF.


----------



## Entropy3000

that_girl said:


> So I can't share anything with anyone other than my husband? He works on the cars for hours...doesn't share that with me. He races cars, his passion! I support it...but it's not how I fulfill myself.
> 
> *So by sharing my soul with people, and who I really am, I am cheating on my husband?
> *
> Psh. Ok.
> 
> ETA: OH! About marriages. Yea, I don't talk to my male friend about his marriage because he isn't married. We do talk about his ex...trying to process that. I don't talk about my marriage with anyone, really.


Depends on what sharing your soul means. That could be a smile or working with habitat for humanity or all sorts of real and euphimistic things. 

I could only share a certain amount of my soul without it pertaining to my marriage in some way. But without context idunno. In many ways I share a part my soul with my colleagues and friends. But nothing to the extent I share with my best friend.

If your husband truly knows what you are doing and is ok with it then you are not cheating by definition. But not cheating alone does not mean it is good for your marriage. 

All rhetoric and debate aside on this issue, I sincerely hope that whatever you are into right now it is the right thing for you.


----------



## that_girl

Sharing my soul....'religiously' speaking. Talking about past lives and soul familes, etc. Things most people don't want to talk about except those who believe in it. I need to ask questions and get personal with people sometimes.


----------



## Entropy3000

FalconKing said:


> Would you share you soul with people who made it clear they want to have sex with you though? Would you have your husband come with you when you share you soul with a guy that you know wants you? Suppose he's one of the best soul sharers you ever meet? Is that what you will tell your husband when you keep meeting the guy? And you because you know the guy wants you, but you are a strong enough not let it go there you husband should just accept this? Carry on then:yawn2:


What if it is her soulmate?


----------



## that_girl

Entropy3000 said:


> What is it is her soulmate?


People can have more than one soulmate. A twin flame or twin soul is your "one" (and always opposite sex). But soulmates? You can have many, male and female....But...this thread isn't about that.


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> We are debating scenarios and concepts like you and I have been doing on the "confessions of a porn hater". That's about 25 pages and we both know the OP does not like what we think about the subject. She said you and her speak different languages which C2W has not yet told me on this one.
> 
> C2W merely gave us a real world use-case.


Nope, not remotely the same situation, and you know it. The "porn hater" thread is a thread discussing porn overall, and specifically somebody talking about unresolved issues in their marriage. Dozens of pages later, her marital issues are still unresolved, and the greater debate about porn still rages.

How you're equating that to a situation where C2W was never asking for help, has made that clear, and people are STILL coming after her, is a mystery to me. We are beyond "concepts" at this point. We are talking about posters in this thread creating problems in somebody's marriage where the actual participants don't feel there is a problem at all.

Something is wrong with that. Say whatever you will about me, I have always advocated here on TAM that any problem is solved if the two married people are in accord. C2W and her husband are in accord, so I don't see any continued need to string her life up.




Thundarr said:


> Your argument is going to look pretty flimsy if I points to any one of many comments on that other thread that you made to the OP which were quite insulting to her.


If you feel you need to drag in a debate from another thread, that has nothing at all to do with the context of this C2W debate, have at it. It's not going to change my argument no matter how "flimsy" you think it looks. There are no claims of perfection coming from my finger tips, but I'm not going to be backing down on _*this*_ argument.


----------



## jaquen

meson said:


> Each of us and each of our marriages use different boundaries.


And this is what it comes down to. This thread would be only half as long if people would accept that each marriage has "different boundaries".

These OSF debates get heated, and lengthy, when people move beyond the discussion of the theoretical, or their own personal experiences, and begin to start foisting their marital boundaries on everybody else's marriage. If it's been made clear that both parties are totally fine with whatever boundaries are in that particular marriage, then we need to let it go.



that_girl said:


> People can have more than one soulmate. A twin flame or twin soul is your "one" (and always opposite sex). But soulmates? You can have many, male and female....But...this thread isn't about that.


I totally believe this. "Soulmate" doesn't even need to be confined to the romantic, or sexual.


----------



## that_girl

This could be a religious debate. Or a political one. :rofl: 


I think people just don't like thinking they are doing something wrong. I know I don't like that feeling. My way is good for me...so I want to believe it is good. But I've learned in my 36 years that other people have good ways too. More than one way to skin a cat. Awwww pppooosssay


----------



## Entropy3000

TRy said:


> Since contrary to your comment to my post, I specifically did not require her to go to the teacher in class when I stated that "maybe you need to dance with the other man in class", your response was disingenuous and avoided addressing the real issue that I was discussing. The real issue is that you have not addressed is that she is still "texting and dancing with the other man in Open Swing as he continues to flirt with" her (as he openly disrespects her husband and her marraige) because she wants to not because she has to. And she wants to because in "the world she's immersed in" the other man as the superior dancer to her husband is the alpha male that she wants to be seen with. I suspect that her husband is a nice guy that does not want to appear controlling so he is sitting back and letting this happen. She can dance all she wants with any of the men that do not disrespect her husband and her marraige, but out of respect for her husband, she should not text or dance with this other man unless she has to in class.
> 
> Although we do not agree on OSF, I have until now understood your point of view and am surprised by your post on this. I think that maybe you need to step back from your bias toward the arts and look again at what she and I posted in this particular case.


Actually it is not so difficult for someone who has good boundaries to do what they need to do. There is no amount of peer or social pressure that controls us. That is totally imaginery. No means no. Does saying no have a cost sometimes? Perhaps. So what?

This bothers me because this is how boundaries get chipped away. Oh I crossed a boundary because I was in a social situation that prohibited me from keeping it. Really? Sure situations may be awkward from time to time but one can low key those.

She has heard the tough love guidance from others. I wish her well. A guy like she describes will take not getting completely shut down as a ... maybe. Just keep trying. I like it enough for you to keep trying. He is hoping that eventually her husband upsets her greatly and she has a weak moment. He only needs to this to work on a small number of the woman he knows for it to be a successful strategy for him. He runs a kino escalation on her accept he has one really big advantage with it. He can run it over an extended period of time.


----------



## Entropy3000

TRy said:


> Read her past posts. He is not her dance partner. He is just someone that she is sometimes paired with in class. *She even said that "I decided then and there, if his hand moved even an inch down toward my butt, I would intentionally step on his feet and leave class* and never dance with him again" showing that not dancing with him is a realistic option even in class.
> 
> He still takes his shots, he just does it less. In talking about the other man she stated that "I can tell by the way he acts, the way he talks, and the we he looks at me that he thinks he can get any girl he wants. And I can tell he likes me, if only for the mere fact that I can dance really well, and I'm fairly attractive." and "He flirts. So? I don't flirt back."


Hopefully she will keep that promise to herself. That is tough to do but indeed she could do it and feel fine about it.


----------



## Entropy3000

Cletus said:


> Sure, but there's nothing wrong with a discreetly applied taser to the testes in the meantime.
> 
> I always have an intellectual problem with a situation where everyone in the room knows something is wrong yet no one is willing to do anything about it. It feels like it's just empowering the pervert.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## jaquen

that_girl said:


> But I've learned in my 36 years that other people have good ways too. More than one way to skin a cat. Awwww pppooosssay


Exactly. I learned long ago, before I was ever married, that what works best in my relationship might not work in somebody elses. 

What matters is what works. Period.

If you and a spouse believe that OSF should never, ever be allowed, and you're both authentically on the same page, I'll be first in line to applaud you.

If you believe in OSF, but with very strict boundaries, horray if it works.

And if you are in a marriage where OSF are open, and free, and that suits both parties, throw a parade.

It's ALL good as long as it's ALL good for the parties listed on that marriage license.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> How you're equating that to a situation where C2W was never asking for help, has made that clear, and people are STILL coming after her, is a mystery to me. We are beyond "concepts" at this point. We are talking about posters in this thread creating problems in somebody's marriage where the actual participants don't feel there is a problem at all.


I merely said the scenario she laid out to us is something I that I would find out of boundaries for me and my wife and everyone went all apesh!t. I have no problem explaining why I find those specifics to be something I don't want to participate in. It's pretty simple. So I call it when I see her words get embellished and made up to suite the argument.

You've said a couple of times that it's ok that we don't agree and let's just wait and see what she says. I've "liked" both comments where you said that. Well I wanted to but other stuff was in one of them. Meson gave us a wonderful segway to change topic. I was ready to change topic like you sort of elluded to twice. Let's talk about his post.


----------



## Entropy3000

that_girl said:


> Travel and share a hotel room?
> 
> Holy crap. No.


Lets' not judge now. 

We cannot expect one person to meet ALL of our needs.


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> I merely said the scenario she laid out to us is something I that I would find out of boundaries for me and my wife and everyone went all apesh!t. I have no problem explaining why I find those specifics to be something I don't want to participate in. It's pretty simple.


You know me pretty well as a poster here. You know I have no problem discussion concepts, or relating experiences to my own marriage.

It went beyond that with C2W's situation, to the point where she made a few posts addressing the continued badgering.



Thundarr said:


> But I'm not setting silent watching while her words get embellished and made up to suite the argument.


Again, I will let C2W decide if she believes I am "embellishing" her life to suit an argument.

If she does come back to the thread, I think you might be a little bit surprised who she feels sees her situation the clearest. 



Thundarr said:


> You've said a couple of times that it's ok that we don't agree and let's just wait and see what she says. I've "liked" both comments where you said that but someone you keep pulling it back up. Meson gave us a wonderful segway to change topic. I was ready to change topic like you sort of elluded to twice. Let's talk about his post.


Why do you keep imagining that this is about just you, or I? This latest leg of the coversation came up when I quoted another poster, not you, who flat out told C2W that the solution she came up with for HER marriage was "not good enough". You weren't even apart of that tangent initially.

But you're right, lets move on. If C2W wants to clarify, she can.


----------



## Coffee Amore

jaquen said:


> Exactly. I learned long ago, before I was ever married, that what works best in my relationship might not work in somebody elses.
> 
> What matters is what works. Period.
> 
> If you and a spouse believe that OSF should never, ever be allowed, and you're both authentically on the same page, I'll be first in line to applaud you.
> 
> If you believe in OSF, but with very strict boundaries, horray if it works.
> 
> And if you are in a marriage where OSF are open, and free, and that suits both parties, throw a parade.
> 
> It's ALL good as long as it's ALL good for the parties listed on that marriage license.


:iagree:

None of us are the marriage police. At times it seems like some are self-appointed marriage police and I don't know why. Do what works for YOUR marriage. I'll do what works for mine. Live and let live.


----------



## that_girl

Entropy3000 said:


> Lets' not judge now.
> 
> We cannot expect one person to meet ALL of our needs.


Ima sock you.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> You know me pretty well as a poster here. You know I have no problem discussion concepts, or relating experiences to my own marriage.
> 
> It went beyond that with C2W's situation, to the point where she made a few posts addressing the continued badgering.


Noted. My intent is not to bash her and I'm ready to move on to something else. It's the sole reason I didn't go back and quote specifics pieces of the comments because I did not want to make it more personal.




jaquen said:


> Again, I will let C2W decide if she believes I am "embellishing" her life to suit an argument.
> 
> If she does come back to the thread, I think you might be a little bit surprised who she feels sees her situation the clearest.


I won't be surprise because I don't know. That was my whole point is that we don't know what we don't know. It's a concept we can both agree on probably. I only know what was presented and how it was presented.




jaquen said:


> Why do you keep imagining that this is about just you, or I? This latest leg of the coversation came up when I quoted another poster, not you, who flat out told C2W that the solution she came up with for HER marriage was "not good enough". You weren't even apart of that tangent initially.
> 
> But you're right, lets move on. If C2W wants to clarify, she can.


That's possible that I grabbed something you directed at another comment. We all do it from time to time. For the most part though I've responded to things with little "Thundarr" quotes in there like you respond to many things with little "Jaquen" quotes.


----------



## Entropy3000

that_girl said:


> Sharing my soul....'religiously' speaking. Talking about past lives and soul familes, etc. Things most people don't want to talk about except those who believe in it. I need to ask questions and get personal with people sometimes.


Good luck to you that girl. 

I am a spiritual person but avoid religions per se. A personal choice.

Predators come in all forms. You know this.

We are stardust and are all connected. I hope you find what you are looking for.


----------



## Entropy3000

that_girl said:


> People can have more than one soulmate. A twin flame or twin soul is your "one" (and always opposite sex). But soulmates? You can have many, male and female....But...this thread isn't about that.


I grok.


----------



## FalconKing

It's really weird how some of us can't agree here but all give the same damn advice on the coping with infidelity threads. Just saying.


----------



## Entropy3000

that_girl said:


> This could be a religious debate. Or a political one. :rofl:
> 
> 
> I think people just don't like thinking they are doing something wrong. I know I don't like that feeling. My way is good for me...so I want to believe it is good. But I've learned in my 36 years that other people have good ways too. More than one way to skin a cat. Awwww pppooosssay


In my way of thinking it is all these things. We can discuss them from different points of view but ALL those views, some of which seem contradictory, are all actually existing in simultaneous harmony and conflict with one another.

One thing that we people have in our nature is that we willingly do things that make us feel good. We tend to follow a path that feels right. I can just say from my personal expereince that "we are just friends" felt very right. I missed them when they we not around. I really looked forward to seeing them. And when I was with them I could see the mutual feeling from them. It felt fine. We admired each other and solved technical problems together under intense pressure and deadlines. This forged our relationship. This is absolutely natural. It felt like a very positve and spiritual bond. Yes she was quite attractive but she was very capable and well educated. She got it. And so on. Sigh. You know if we were not married to other people this would have indeed been fine. But it is very natural for us to connect / reconnect with others. 

In the absence of those brain chemicals that was impacting my judgement I realized ... holy crap WTF was I thinking! I did not feel ok then. Not talking about withdrawal. No that sucked big time, but I learned something about myself and because we are all connected I learned something about US. Humanity. We are very capable of loving and falling in love with any number of people. It can become very complicated. There is much goodness and badness with it all that coexists.

But for sure rationalization comes to the rescue.

TG, just relating to myself. I was a good person before my EA and I was a good person afterwards. But good people can be wrong and they can do selfish things. Now if people continue to do selfish things then maybe they are not so good. My ego said I could depend on my character. I was naive to think I could depend on my feelings. It is what we do with our situation that matters the most.

I never lost love for my wife. I never blamed my wife for anything. I know after many years of reflection what got me into trouble and how I was accountable for putting myself into the situation. A very common situation these days for a lot of folks.

Knowing where to draw the boundary on these relationships is not easy.

There is an infinite amount of space between radical monogamy and full open marriage. I am totally against both ends of that spectrum personally. While my boundaries have been radically improved my goals for my marriage have not really changed. I did not understand I was putting my marriage at risk. But clearly I was. 

Some peoples boundaries may be more liberal than mine but they may be fine for the level of monogamy they embrace and wish to maintain. Others not so much. The thing is that it is all very Darwinian. The only thing that clouds it I think is that people may end up drawing the wrong conclusions if their marriage does fail. Indeed some may blame it on friends and the real issue may have been primarily something else. But too often people discount the power that our friendships can have on our marriage ... good and bad.


----------



## lovelygirl

Thundarr said:


> I remember you saying this once before on a thread and I remember commenting how much I like the fact that you felt uncomfortable that he was talking poorly about his SO to you and that you called him out on it (I think). Bravo again.
> 
> Edit: Actually I remember taking up for you because everyone thought you were married and took your comments out of context


haha yeah I remember that.


----------



## lovelygirl

jaquen said:


> Read what you wrote. This isn't an OSF issue. This is a boyfriend-is-emotionally-cheating-and-you-are-blaming-the-woman issue.
> 
> As long as you're concentrating on the evils of OSF, you're missing the picture.
> 
> Why even think about marrying a man who is already "multi dating" you with an ex, having an EA, and lying?


OF course it was an OSF problem. It doesn't matter if they were dating or in an exclusive relationship or marriage. 
I wold treat it as an OSF problem and if I were her I would go ballistic and would probably break up from him.


----------



## Cletus

Coffee Amore said:


> :iagree:
> 
> None of us are the marriage police. At times it seems like some are self-appointed marriage police and I don't know why. Do what works for YOUR marriage. I'll do what works for mine. Live and let live.


I have no interest in telling her what she should do in her marriage.

I have plenty of interest in pointing out some of the traps and pitfalls that may follow from those choices in light of all of the publicly available data on infidelity. One would hope that we could all learn both from the successes and failures of those who have gone before us.

I get that that sounds patronizing. But I live all the time in the real world, and to paraphrase Heinlein, she's a harsh mistress.

So to anyone within earshot - do what YOU think is right. Take the advice of others and incorporate it into your worldview and become wiser for it.

I don't think that's trying to police anyone.


----------



## ATC529R




----------



## Cletus

ATC529R said:


>


Lol.

I respect your authoritah.


----------



## ATC529R

Cletus said:


> Lol.
> 
> I respect your authoritah.


glad we see eye to eye. and NO, you can't dance with my wife.


----------



## Tony55

It's hard to motivate people to express their opinion in a thread where nearly 50% of 500 posts belong to three people.

People are going to express their opinions, and some of those opinions might strike a nerve, but at the end of the day, that person is most likely here to learn something or share something, and in either case, that experience is probably cathartic for them.

I believe it's quite telling when a poster needs to repeatedly defend or attack a position; it says more about the individual then it does the actual topic at hand.

T


----------



## that_girl

Huh? 

I don't like people pushing their 'morals' or standards on me...at all. If me or my husband don't have a problem with our actions, then no one else should either.


----------



## Coffee Amore

that_girl said:


> Huh?
> 
> I don't like people pushing their 'morals' or standards on me...at all. If me or my husband don't have a problem with our actions, then no one else should either.


:iagree:

That's what I've said all along in this thread. Do what works for your particular marriage. If no OSF is your boundary then go for it. Just don't make those of us who choose to have OSF and can make it work and haven't ever had infidelity issues in our marriage seem like clueless immoral people. Just like I don't want people imposing their religion or political views on me, I don't care to have someone else's definition of "good marriage" imposed on me either.


----------



## that_girl

HEY! Entropy deleted his comment. Oh well. Mine still stands.


----------



## Entropy3000

that_girl said:


> HEY! Entropy deleted his comment. Oh well. Mine still stands.


I had no idea you were responding to my comment.
After I posted I felt I did not want to feed that anyway.


----------



## that_girl

It's all good


----------



## Hall33

This is a completely contextual situation. It greatly varies from person to person because of contextual issues. 

For instance. I have a friend who has *never* had strictly platonic female friends, and I'm not talking "friends" you see once in a while or just wall posts on FB, but real friendships....which are a type of relationship.

For this friend having female friends really doesn't exist, the only place females have had in his life are as GF's or "acquaintances" even frequently seen acquaintances.

For me? I was raised with sisters, and have female cousins that I love and am great friends with. 

So for *me*, I have a life long history of experience and reference of being close friends with females without a sexual component.

So growing up I have always had very very close female friends, that are attractive and never lead to anything more.

In fact, of every single GF relationship I've ever had, not a single one was generated from an existing friendship, they've always been women outside my circle of friends. I even had to heavily make-out with an attractive female friend for an acting gig, and it didn't turn into more.

So, can *I* have female friends that doesn't turn into something else, yes. But I believe I am the exception to the rule.


There are people more suited to this and people who aren't


----------



## jaquen

Hall33 said:


> For me? I was raised with sisters, and have female cousins that I love and am great friends with.
> 
> So for *me*, I have a life long history of experience and reference of being close friends with females without a sexual component.
> 
> So growing up I have always had very very close female friends, that are attractive and never lead to anything more.
> 
> In fact, of every single GF relationship I've ever had, not a single one was generated from an existing friendship, they've always been women outside my circle of friends. I even had to heavily make-out with an attractive female friend for an acting gig, and it didn't turn into more.
> 
> So, can *I* have female friends that doesn't turn into something else, yes. But I believe I am the exception to the rule.
> 
> 
> There are people more suited to this and people who aren't


I could have written this entire post (sans the never getting with friends, as my wife was my best friend). 

I'm glad you mentioned the female family component. If you are use to being in close relationship with a sister, or cousin, it might make a world of difference. I have seven sisters, but only one "full" one, and I was raised with her. We are exceptionally close; she is one of the best friends I have ever had.

So yes, it does seem perfectly natural to me to have a close female friend, from very early on. I wonder if there is any correlation.


----------



## NextTimeAround

There was a time when the fact that might husband might be out one on one with another woman would not have bothered me-- if other things had been in place. 1) that I knew her too and she was friendly with both of use 2) that it's clear that invitation is for both of us and 3) if my husband could ever no make it, the invitation would stil stand for me.

But what I found is that a lot of women don't play that way when they are friends with a man who then goes on to get married ; or when they befriend a married man.


----------



## lovelygirl

NTA, it's always a bit difficult for a woman to accept her OSF's wife. It's called jealousy and women have it more in this regard.
Funny how last night I was thinking about my OSF's imaginary wife (who wouldn't be me) and I felt some jealosy because of how I've started feeling about him recently. 
Now...if I didn't have fantasies that go beyond friendship, I would probably feel indifferent towards his future wife. 

These are all imaginary. Who knows I might like her a lot but one thing is for sure and I bet my life on it!!:
Any invitation for me would be for BOTH of them! In no way would I disrespect his marriage by inviting only him or by taking advantage of any alone time we might get. 
It's not in me to act that way and I'm sure his partner wouldn't feel good. Also, I would try to respect his relationship in every way, shape or form and I expect the same from him with my marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Created2Write

Thundarr said:


> Again? I haven't heard her say she's submerged, immersed, entwined, consumed, engrossed, etc. These are your words to paint a picture to support a postition.
> 
> C2W are you submerged and immersed in Dance and I trust you to answer honestly if you choose to answer. I do not however trust that you know these things about her Jaquen. If they are true then it would have been good info from the beginning.


UGH. The apparent lack of self-control here astonishes me. I apologize off the bat if this post offends her personally hurts anyone, but I am really tired of watching my choices being twisted and formed into something that most people in this thread simply don't understand. So, for one _final_ time, here is my explanation:

Ballroom dance is fun. It's a time to make friends, chat, laugh at how clutzy everyone looks when you're learning a new step or a new dance altogether. It's fun to take my husband and watch him, a former nationally competitive all-star and collegiate cheerleader, try to learn how to Swing Dance with how stiff and precise he's used to being. 

But there's something else that also come with Ballroom Dancing: close proximity to your dance partner. The Waltz, the Tango, the Salsa, The Cha-Cha, West Coast Swing, Nightclub...these dances require close physical proximity to your partner and, without speaking a single syllable to each other, radiate passion. Some dances like the Tango or Salsa are exceptionally sexy, centering on the hips to create its style and energy. I've watched national competitions, where the improv section is begun and two strangers are paired together to Salsa together. One time the woman walked right up to her partner and planted a kiss right on his mouth. She wasn't flirting or trying to seduce him, she was trying to build the passion that it takes two people dancing together to build over months and years, in only a few moments before they hit the dance floor for the first time in their lives. Because they're being judged not only on how well they can do the dance themselves, but how well they dance together. 

This sort of thing is true in any sport that requires a man and a woman to work together; cheerleading, ice skating, other kinds of dancing like ballet or hip-hop, jazz or contemporary. Dance, in and of itself, exudes passion between the people who are dancing, whether they're married, friends, or strangers. This is inevitable. There's no working around it. There's only two choices: accept it and deal with it, or don't dance. Some people would choose not to dance. Others recognize their own potential and decide to deal with it. 

My husband is no stranger to these kinds of choices. In high school he joined an all-star cheerleading team out of one of the best gyms in our state. He was one of the few straight guys on the team, surrounded by girls for hours every day. Touching them in places you don't even touch in dance unless your grinding against someone's crotch in hip-hop. Specific routines and moves and tricks require the men to touch women on the butt cheeks frequently, touch their bare skin, touch their breasts even, and when catching them, it's not uncommon for a man to touch a woman's crotch. Especially since his job is to ensure she lands safe and sound, no matter where you have to grab her. 

My husband is a phenomenal tumbler, he's phenomenal at stunting, and he got full college scholarships based on those talents. The butt grabbing and stuff comes with the territory. Either you accept that it will be there, no matter what team you're on, what gym you go to, and you deal with it, or you admit that you can't hack it, and you quit. He chose to deal with it. 

Women in cheer are often flirtatious, but you don't complain to your coach. A team is a team. Sometimes people are lazy. You don't quit because of that. Sometimes they're downright jerks. You don't quit because of that. You suck it up, deflect the uncomfortable situations your put in, and keep going. Why? It's your passion! It's what you love! You've spent hours, days, months, even years into this sport. Knowing you could be a national champion is one of the most motivating achievements a person could hope for. 

I'm 5' tall. There are no sports that I can start at this age where I could realistically make something of myself. I'm too short for basketball. I've never been terribly athletic, so running isn't an option. I hate water, so swimming isn't an option. I also hate skating, and I'm terrified of getting my fingers cut off, so there's a no go. Moreover, there are people who spend years, from the time they're children, training to be great at these sports, and sometimes they don't even make it. 

Dance is something I am good at. Ballroom, especially. It's technically challenging, but it's not like ballet where you can't move on until you master the move you got three months ago. It can be high speed, like the Salsa or the Hustle, or it can be slower like the Waltz or Nightclub, or it can be in the middle like West Coast Swing or the Cha-Cha. Each style has it's own personality, it's own vibe, and every dancer has his and her own way of expressing themselves through it. 

My husband understands the personality in men who dance Ballroom. Each and every one who is successful at it is ****y, confident, and flirtatious. They know that men who can dance like them are rare, and they know that a lot of women absolutely love it. I haven't danced with a single man who was good at Swing who didn't flirt with me, at least a little. Usually the flirting is obvious, but every once in a while there will be the shy one who barely had enough to guts to ask the women to dance in the first place. _I have never flirted back_. Did they come and ask me to dance again? Yes, because, frankly, I'm a wonderful dancer. Did I accept? Of course, because, frankly, I'm a wonderful dancer! I love dancing! Not for anyone else, but for myself! It's fulfilling. 

Ballroom dance is also an industry where you don't get cut out if you're over thirty. So long as you still have the moves, are still in shape, and have a partner who's just as good as you are, you can compete. 

I explained my passion for dance before my husband and I married. I explained that I would be dancing with other men frequently, that I'd likely be flirted with, and that I would never, ever, flirt back. He understood, coming from the cheer industry. He explained his passion for cheer, and said that he was considering partner stunting with someone. If you don't know what partner stunting is, it's basically where one guy and one girl get together and practice crazy awesome stunts, and they perform them alone. No one else is stunting with them. Which means a lot of one on one time with this girl. I understood that it would be no different than me finding a full-time dance partner and practicing for a competition. We agreed to specific boundaries conducive to both industries, and left it at that. 

Flirting comes with dance. It's been said over and over. And no, I'm not going to give up great potential with a great dance partner just because some people on a message board think an attractive woman is inevitably going to go weak in the knees over a guy who's a good dancer. I _do_ dance with my husband. But dancing is not natural to him. It would take him four times as long to learn what I know, and what I know only took me one term to learn. Less than that, even! And this guy is a great dancer. If I drop him and find another guy, he'll likely be the same way; flirtatious. The only way to not encounter this is to dance with the old, feeble men who're doing it as exercise.

And this whole thing about my husband only going along with it so as not to upset me is bullsh*t. He doesn't feel disrespected by me dancing with this guy. He laughed when I told him what happened. I asked him what he wanted me to do and his words were, "Nothing yet. If he says it again, or tries to touch your bum, then we'll figure it out." And no, he didn't say that just to make me happy. My husband actually has the balls to tell me when he doesn't like something, whether it's my cooking, or my writing, or my attitude, or something to do with dance. And I am a decent woman who recognizes when something has the potential to be really bad, and I tell my husband what happens the moment it does. Maybe other women in this word would go around keeping secrets about the inappropriate comments and the flirting, but I am not one of them. Maybe some of the critical men in this thread have had such experiences, if so, I am truly sorry. But it's not right to paint all women out to be that way. Some of us really do have the self-control to partake in our passions _and_ resist whatever complications come with it. 

I am by no means trying to say that my boundaries and my choices should be what everyone else does. Some women really couldn't resist a charming demeanor and a talented dancer. But I can. And until my husband voices any concern over what goes on, I'm going to dance. He wants me to dance! Same as I want him to live out his passions, even if it means touching some girls butt in a trick. We trust each other. Truly and entirely. And no one has the right to question that, married or not.


----------



## FalconKing

Created2Write said:


> UGH. The apparent lack of self-control here astonishes me. I apologize off the bat if this post offends her personally hurts anyone, but I am really tired of watching my choices being twisted and formed into something that most people in this thread simply don't understand. So, for one _final_ time, here is my explanation:
> 
> Ballroom dance is fun. It's a time to make friends, chat, laugh at how clutzy everyone looks when you're learning a new step or a new dance altogether. It's fun to take my husband and watch him, a former nationally competitive all-star and collegiate cheerleader, try to learn how to Swing Dance with how stiff and precise he's used to being.
> 
> But there's something else that also come with Ballroom Dancing: close proximity to your dance partner. The Waltz, the Tango, the Salsa, The Cha-Cha, West Coast Swing, Nightclub...these dances require close physical proximity to your partner and, without speaking a single syllable to each other, radiate passion. Some dances like the Tango or Salsa are exceptionally sexy, centering on the hips to create its style and energy. I've watched national competitions, where the improv section is begun and two strangers are paired together to Salsa together. One time the woman walked right up to her partner and planted a kiss right on his mouth. She wasn't flirting or trying to seduce him, she was trying to build the passion that it takes two people dancing together to build over months and years, in only a few moments before they hit the dance floor for the first time in their lives. Because they're being judged not only on how well they can do the dance themselves, but how well they dance together.
> 
> This sort of thing is true in any sport that requires a man and a woman to work together; cheerleading, ice skating, other kinds of dancing like ballet or hip-hop, jazz or contemporary. Dance, in and of itself, exudes passion between the people who are dancing, whether they're married, friends, or strangers. This is inevitable. There's no working around it. There's only two choices: accept it and deal with it, or don't dance. Some people would choose not to dance. Others recognize their own potential and decide to deal with it.
> 
> My husband is no stranger to these kinds of choices. In high school he joined an all-star cheerleading team out of one of the best gyms in our state. He was one of the few straight guys on the team, surrounded by girls for hours every day. Touching them in places you don't even touch in dance unless your grinding against someone's crotch in hip-hop. Specific routines and moves and tricks require the men to touch women on the butt cheeks frequently, touch their bare skin, touch their breasts even, and when catching them, it's not uncommon for a man to touch a woman's crotch. Especially since his job is to ensure she lands safe and sound, no matter where you have to grab her.
> 
> My husband is a phenomenal tumbler, he's phenomenal at stunting, and he got full college scholarships based on those talents. The butt grabbing and stuff comes with the territory. Either you accept that it will be there, no matter what team you're on, what gym you go to, and you deal with it, or you admit that you can't hack it, and you quit. He chose to deal with it.
> 
> Women in cheer are often flirtatious, but you don't complain to your coach. A team is a team. Sometimes people are lazy. You don't quit because of that. Sometimes they're downright jerks. You don't quit because of that. You suck it up, deflect the uncomfortable situations your put in, and keep going. Why? It's your passion! It's what you love! You've spent hours, days, months, even years into this sport. Knowing you could be a national champion is one of the most motivating achievements a person could hope for.
> 
> I'm 5' tall. There are no sports that I can start at this age where I could realistically make something of myself. I'm too short for basketball. I've never been terribly athletic, so running isn't an option. I hate water, so swimming isn't an option. I also hate skating, and I'm terrified of getting my fingers cut off, so there's a no go. Moreover, there are people who spend years, from the time they're children, training to be great at these sports, and sometimes they don't even make it.
> 
> Dance is something I am good at. Ballroom, especially. It's technically challenging, but it's not like ballet where you can't move on until you master the move you got three months ago. It can be high speed, like the Salsa or the Hustle, or it can be slower like the Waltz or Nightclub, or it can be in the middle like West Coast Swing or the Cha-Cha. Each style has it's own personality, it's own vibe, and every dancer has his and her own way of expressing themselves through it.
> 
> My husband understands the personality in men who dance Ballroom. Each and every one who is successful at it is ****y, confident, and flirtatious. They know that men who can dance like them are rare, and they know that a lot of women absolutely love it. I haven't danced with a single man who was good at Swing who didn't flirt with me, at least a little. Usually the flirting is obvious, but every once in a while there will be the shy one who barely had enough to guts to ask the women to dance in the first place. _I have never flirted back_. Did they come and ask me to dance again? Yes, because, frankly, I'm a wonderful dancer. Did I accept? Of course, because, frankly, I'm a wonderful dancer! I love dancing! Not for anyone else, but for myself! It's fulfilling.
> 
> Ballroom dance is also an industry where you don't get cut out if you're over thirty. So long as you still have the moves, are still in shape, and have a partner who's just as good as you are, you can compete.
> 
> I explained my passion for dance before my husband and I married. I explained that I would be dancing with other men frequently, that I'd likely be flirted with, and that I would never, ever, flirt back. He understood, coming from the cheer industry. He explained his passion for cheer, and said that he was considering partner stunting with someone. If you don't know what partner stunting is, it's basically where one guy and one girl get together and practice crazy awesome stunts, and they perform them alone. No one else is stunting with them. Which means a lot of one on one time with this girl. I understood that it would be no different than me finding a full-time dance partner and practicing for a competition. We agreed to specific boundaries conducive to both industries, and left it at that.
> 
> Flirting comes with dance. It's been said over and over. And no, I'm not going to give up great potential with a great dance partner just because some people on a message board think an attractive woman is inevitably going to go weak in the knees over a guy who's a good dancer. I _do_ dance with my husband. But dancing is not natural to him. It would take him four times as long to learn what I know, and what I know only took me one term to learn. Less than that, even! And this guy is a great dancer. If I drop him and find another guy, he'll likely be the same way; flirtatious. The only way to not encounter this is to dance with the old, feeble men who're doing it as exercise.
> 
> And this whole thing about my husband only going along with it so as not to upset me is bullsh*t. He doesn't feel disrespected by me dancing with this guy. He laughed when I told him what happened. I asked him what he wanted me to do and his words were, "Nothing yet. If he says it again, or tries to touch your bum, then we'll figure it out." And no, he didn't say that just to make me happy. My husband actually has the balls to tell me when he doesn't like something, whether it's my cooking, or my writing, or my attitude, or something to do with dance. And I am a decent woman who recognizes when something has the potential to be really bad, and I tell my husband what happens the moment it does. Maybe other women in this word would go around keeping secrets about the inappropriate comments and the flirting, but I am not one of them. Maybe some of the critical men in this thread have had such experiences, if so, I am truly sorry. But it's not right to paint all women out to be that way. Some of us really do have the self-control to partake in our passions _and_ resist whatever complications come with it.
> 
> I am by no means trying to say that my boundaries and my choices should be what everyone else does. Some women really couldn't resist a charming demeanor and a talented dancer. But I can. And until my husband voices any concern over what goes on, I'm going to dance. He wants me to dance! Same as I want him to live out his passions, even if it means touching some girls butt in a trick. We trust each other. Truly and entirely. And no one has the right to question that, married or not.


I'm too mentally tired to respond to all this but I want to say you don't have to defend to us that you don't mind giving you number and dancing with dudes that want to have sex with you. Dudes that have told you so. And you don't have to tell us how it's not worth the time to change partners because the next dude will want to have sex with you too. You even pointed out_ once again_ what positive qualities the dude has. Don't defend it. Embrace it. Shout to the clouds about it. It's your right as a woman. If you need to radiate passion with other men besides your husband to live, then live. Nobody wants you to die.


----------



## Created2Write

FalconKing said:


> I'm too mentally tired to respond to all this but I want to say you don't have to defend to us that you don't mind giving you number and dancing with dudes that want to have sex with you. Dudes that have told you so. And you don't have to tell us how it's not worth the time to change partners because the next dude will want to have sex with you too. You even pointed out_ once again_ what positive qualities the dude has. Don't defend it. Embrace it. Shout to the clouds about it. It's your right as a woman. If you need to radiate passion with other men besides your husband to live, then live. Nobody wants you to die.


:rofl:


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## TrustInUs

Hey CREATED2WRITE, get post. I was thinking about this thread because my husband and I dance the Chicago Style Step- which is a form of ballroom. For us it's a hobby, so we dont compete, and we dance together, but having been around the dance scene, I do see where you are coming from.


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## that_girl

FalconKing said:


> I'm too mentally tired to respond to all this but I want to say you don't have to defend to us that you don't mind giving you number and dancing with dudes that want to have sex with you. Dudes that have told you so. And you don't have to tell us how it's not worth the time to change partners because the next dude will want to have sex with you too. You even pointed out_ once again_ what positive qualities the dude has. Don't defend it. Embrace it. Shout to the clouds about it. It's your right as a woman. If you need to radiate passion with other men besides your husband to live, then live. Nobody wants you to die.


:rofl: /snark.


----------



## jaquen

Created2Write said:


> UGH. The apparent lack of self-control here astonishes me. I apologize off the bat if this post offends her personally hurts anyone, but I am really tired of watching my choices being twisted and formed into something that most people in this thread simply don't understand. So, for one _final_ time, here is my explanation:
> 
> Ballroom dance is fun. It's a time to make friends, chat, laugh at how clutzy everyone looks when you're learning a new step or a new dance altogether. It's fun to take my husband and watch him, a former nationally competitive all-star and collegiate cheerleader, try to learn how to Swing Dance with how stiff and precise he's used to being.
> 
> But there's something else that also come with Ballroom Dancing: close proximity to your dance partner. The Waltz, the Tango, the Salsa, The Cha-Cha, West Coast Swing, Nightclub...these dances require close physical proximity to your partner and, without speaking a single syllable to each other, radiate passion. Some dances like the Tango or Salsa are exceptionally sexy, centering on the hips to create its style and energy. I've watched national competitions, where the improv section is begun and two strangers are paired together to Salsa together. One time the woman walked right up to her partner and planted a kiss right on his mouth. She wasn't flirting or trying to seduce him, she was trying to build the passion that it takes two people dancing together to build over months and years, in only a few moments before they hit the dance floor for the first time in their lives. Because they're being judged not only on how well they can do the dance themselves, but how well they dance together.
> 
> This sort of thing is true in any sport that requires a man and a woman to work together; cheerleading, ice skating, other kinds of dancing like ballet or hip-hop, jazz or contemporary. Dance, in and of itself, exudes passion between the people who are dancing, whether they're married, friends, or strangers. This is inevitable. There's no working around it. There's only two choices: accept it and deal with it, or don't dance. Some people would choose not to dance. Others recognize their own potential and decide to deal with it.
> 
> My husband is no stranger to these kinds of choices. In high school he joined an all-star cheerleading team out of one of the best gyms in our state. He was one of the few straight guys on the team, surrounded by girls for hours every day. Touching them in places you don't even touch in dance unless your grinding against someone's crotch in hip-hop. Specific routines and moves and tricks require the men to touch women on the butt cheeks frequently, touch their bare skin, touch their breasts even, and when catching them, it's not uncommon for a man to touch a woman's crotch. Especially since his job is to ensure she lands safe and sound, no matter where you have to grab her.
> 
> My husband is a phenomenal tumbler, he's phenomenal at stunting, and he got full college scholarships based on those talents. The butt grabbing and stuff comes with the territory. Either you accept that it will be there, no matter what team you're on, what gym you go to, and you deal with it, or you admit that you can't hack it, and you quit. He chose to deal with it.
> 
> Women in cheer are often flirtatious, but you don't complain to your coach. A team is a team. Sometimes people are lazy. You don't quit because of that. Sometimes they're downright jerks. You don't quit because of that. You suck it up, deflect the uncomfortable situations your put in, and keep going. Why? It's your passion! It's what you love! You've spent hours, days, months, even years into this sport. Knowing you could be a national champion is one of the most motivating achievements a person could hope for.
> 
> I'm 5' tall. There are no sports that I can start at this age where I could realistically make something of myself. I'm too short for basketball. I've never been terribly athletic, so running isn't an option. I hate water, so swimming isn't an option. I also hate skating, and I'm terrified of getting my fingers cut off, so there's a no go. Moreover, there are people who spend years, from the time they're children, training to be great at these sports, and sometimes they don't even make it.
> 
> Dance is something I am good at. Ballroom, especially. It's technically challenging, but it's not like ballet where you can't move on until you master the move you got three months ago. It can be high speed, like the Salsa or the Hustle, or it can be slower like the Waltz or Nightclub, or it can be in the middle like West Coast Swing or the Cha-Cha. Each style has it's own personality, it's own vibe, and every dancer has his and her own way of expressing themselves through it.
> 
> My husband understands the personality in men who dance Ballroom. Each and every one who is successful at it is ****y, confident, and flirtatious. They know that men who can dance like them are rare, and they know that a lot of women absolutely love it. I haven't danced with a single man who was good at Swing who didn't flirt with me, at least a little. Usually the flirting is obvious, but every once in a while there will be the shy one who barely had enough to guts to ask the women to dance in the first place. _I have never flirted back_. Did they come and ask me to dance again? Yes, because, frankly, I'm a wonderful dancer. Did I accept? Of course, because, frankly, I'm a wonderful dancer! I love dancing! Not for anyone else, but for myself! It's fulfilling.
> 
> Ballroom dance is also an industry where you don't get cut out if you're over thirty. So long as you still have the moves, are still in shape, and have a partner who's just as good as you are, you can compete.
> 
> I explained my passion for dance before my husband and I married. I explained that I would be dancing with other men frequently, that I'd likely be flirted with, and that I would never, ever, flirt back. He understood, coming from the cheer industry. He explained his passion for cheer, and said that he was considering partner stunting with someone. If you don't know what partner stunting is, it's basically where one guy and one girl get together and practice crazy awesome stunts, and they perform them alone. No one else is stunting with them. Which means a lot of one on one time with this girl. I understood that it would be no different than me finding a full-time dance partner and practicing for a competition. We agreed to specific boundaries conducive to both industries, and left it at that.
> 
> Flirting comes with dance. It's been said over and over. And no, I'm not going to give up great potential with a great dance partner just because some people on a message board think an attractive woman is inevitably going to go weak in the knees over a guy who's a good dancer. I _do_ dance with my husband. But dancing is not natural to him. It would take him four times as long to learn what I know, and what I know only took me one term to learn. Less than that, even! And this guy is a great dancer. If I drop him and find another guy, he'll likely be the same way; flirtatious. The only way to not encounter this is to dance with the old, feeble men who're doing it as exercise.
> 
> And this whole thing about my husband only going along with it so as not to upset me is bullsh*t. He doesn't feel disrespected by me dancing with this guy. He laughed when I told him what happened. I asked him what he wanted me to do and his words were, "Nothing yet. If he says it again, or tries to touch your bum, then we'll figure it out." And no, he didn't say that just to make me happy. My husband actually has the balls to tell me when he doesn't like something, whether it's my cooking, or my writing, or my attitude, or something to do with dance. And I am a decent woman who recognizes when something has the potential to be really bad, and I tell my husband what happens the moment it does. Maybe other women in this word would go around keeping secrets about the inappropriate comments and the flirting, but I am not one of them. Maybe some of the critical men in this thread have had such experiences, if so, I am truly sorry. But it's not right to paint all women out to be that way. Some of us really do have the self-control to partake in our passions _and_ resist whatever complications come with it.
> 
> I am by no means trying to say that my boundaries and my choices should be what everyone else does. Some women really couldn't resist a charming demeanor and a talented dancer. But I can. And until my husband voices any concern over what goes on, I'm going to dance. He wants me to dance! Same as I want him to live out his passions, even if it means touching some girls butt in a trick. We trust each other. Truly and entirely. And no one has the right to question that, married or not.


Beautifully stated, and perfectly explained. If people still don't get it after reading this, they never will. But you laid it out exactly as it is in that world, exactly what works for your marriage, and that's all that matters.


----------



## Soccerfan73

This is a very interesting thread. Lots of drama. 

I think it's one of those things that you have to have the boundaries set by the partners in the marriage. It's kind of difficult to have rules from other people govern what will or won't work for you personally. 

PERSONALLY, I'll pass on having a partner who has a lot of guys hanging around her on her personal time. But that's just my boundary. I'm okay with being alone as opposed to being in that position. But that's also because of my past and having been cheated on. My problem. Wouldn't expect others to have to bow and live by it themselves.

Nor do I think that every woman who has guy friends around them is one step away from a career in pornography. 

As Rodney King once stated, "Can't we all just get along"?


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## SimplyAmorous

> *Created2Write said*: but I am really tired of watching my choices being twisted and formed into something that most people in this thread simply don't understand.


I'm not a dancer, I suck badly....2 feet in all the wrong places...but that does sound like ALOT OF FUN Created2write :smthumbup:.... We all have our gifts in life... in that atmosphere -what you are dealing with comes with the territory... so I would think. 

I asked my husband last night how he would feel in that situation, purely for curiosity's sake ....as I've always felt he is pretty lenient with me...(in comparison to some here anyway)....I bring up TAM scenarios all the time...

He did tell me he wouldn't like it (the dancing with a flirty good looking man)... I asked if he'd MAKE me stop if I made a case out of it ....he said he wouldn't "make me"/ enforce it ...... but he would be *uncomfortable* and it would show in his daily interactions with me...basically building to a contention, a disrespect on my part. 

If your husband is OK with it though... really.. Who are we to judge...I like the honesty on this thread with how it really is. 

All any of us can do is *be aware* of the way many before us fell....Ya know... I did laugh reading one of Jaquens posts asking- what do they expect you to do -ask for a Gay partner. :rofl: 

I feel any beautiful woman in your shoes will face exactly what you are experiencing -in the dancing world.... It likely doesn't even mean anything ... but the potential that it could (if things are bad at home & an emotional attachment develops on your behalf)...there is some wisdom in these warnings too. 

In our marriage....we've had a single man LIVE with us for a few months years ago... I thought he was cute..he was alone in the house with me at times...if he felt anything, he never stepped out of his boundaries against my husband...

We also have a guy friend with a very flirty personality...with all women.. And yeah he jokes with me too.... do we throw him to the curb... No....we don't. Do we need him in our life... also a NO, he is the one who calls on us 95% of the time.... He's been around for 20+ years...our kids look upon him as an Uncle.... He calls my husband "the STUD"... he hugs me, he hugs him.... he jokes / banters in a flirty manner... husband gets alot of ...."You're a lucky son of a B" type comments. 

He knows I am not attracted to him ~ like at all, not even on a deserted island. We've been there for him through a very sour "breaking up" of a female friend, (He wanted more) -she didn't....but she did keep him holding on, throwing out Hope... I kept telling him she was not into him.... as almost RUDE to him about it (but I could see it for what it was).... WE were the friends who were there to help him ...when his world came crashing down - to pick up the pieces of that deep hurt. 

Me & husband is a little more open than others would be in regards to FB friends also ...I've helped one guy with his dating profile...he asked ME - he used to go to our church - friends with him, his Mom, his dad. When we'd get together, we'd just randomly talk about anything...like we'd known each other for years, I only see them (now) about twice a year, but we pick right up. 

He's had a guy friend a work sending me emails about Disney world when we were planning our trip. 

My husband has even told a couple of the guys at work to call me up - with questions they had on things.. It's just how we are.

And again... we talk about it all. It's worked for us for the last 31 yrs ...I think we'll be OK.


----------



## Created2Write

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'm not a dancer, I suck badly....2 feet in all the wrong places...but that does sound like ALOT OF FUN Created2write :smthumbup:.... We all have our gifts in life... in that atmosphere -what you are dealing with comes with the territory... so I would think.
> 
> I asked my husband last night how he would feel in that situation, purely for curiosity's sake ....as I've always felt he is pretty lenient with me...(in comparison to some here anyway)....I bring up TAM scenarios all the time...
> 
> He did tell me he wouldn't like it (the dancing with a flirty good looking man)... I asked if he'd MAKE me stop if I made a case out of it ....he said he wouldn't "make me"/ enforce it ...... but he would be *uncomfortable* and it would show in his daily interactions with me...basically building to a contention, a disrespect on my part.
> 
> If your husband is OK with it though... really.. Who are we to judge...I like the honesty on this thread with how it really is.
> 
> All any of us can do is *be aware* of the way many before us fell....Ya know... I did laugh reading one of Jaquens posts asking- what do they expect you to do -ask for a Gay partner. :rofl:
> 
> I feel any beautiful woman in your shoes will face exactly what you are experiencing -in the dancing world.... It likely doesn't even mean anything ... but the potential that it could (if things are bad at home & an emotional attachment develops on your behalf)...there is some wisdom in these warnings too.
> 
> In our marriage....we've had a single man LIVE with us for a few months years ago... I thought he was cute..he was alone in the house with me at times...if he felt anything, he never stepped out of his boundaries against my husband...
> 
> We also have a guy friend with a very flirty personality...with all women.. And yeah he jokes with me too.... do we throw him to the curb... No....we don't. Do we need him in our life... also a NO, he is the one who calls on us 95% of the time.... He's been around for 20+ years...our kids look upon him as an Uncle.... He calls my husband "the STUD"... he hugs me, he hugs him.... he jokes / banters in a flirty manner... husband gets alot of ...."You're a lucky son of a B" type comments.
> 
> He knows I am not attracted to him ~ like at all, not even on a deserted island. We've been there for him through a very sour "breaking up" of a female friend, (He wanted more) -she didn't....but she did keep him holding on, throwing out Hope... I kept telling him she was not into him.... as almost RUDE to him about it (but I could see it for what it was).... WE were the friends who were there to help him ...when his world came crashing down - to pick up the pieces of that deep hurt.
> 
> Me & husband is a little more open than others would be in regards to FB friends...I've helped one guy with his dating profile...he asked ME - he goes to our church - friends with him, his Mom, his dad, we're all pretty darn "open".
> 
> He's had a guy friend a work sending me emails about Disney world when we were planning our trip.
> 
> My husband has even told a couple of the guys at work to call me up - with questions they had on things.. It's just how we are.
> 
> And again... we talk about it all. It's worked for us for the last 31 yrs ...I think we'll be OK.


Thanks. 

Honestly, the danger isn't always the circumstance, imo, the danger is when things are kept from the spouse. My husband and I understand the importance of open communication without judgment, which was why I made sure to tell him whenever I was flirted with by anyone is that class, and especially about the butt comment from the one guy. And he tells me when women flirt with him. We don't punish each other for something the person who was flirting did. But we are honest when things potentially get to what we deem for us to be an uncomfortable scenario. We talk, we consider our boundaries, decide if they've been entirely breached or merely tested, and then decide on a reasonable course of action. 

If I were to keep these things from my husband, then yes, I would see the potential danger. If my husband I were in a weak point in our marriage, I wouldn't even be going dancing. I would be putting the time and effort into _us_. But since neither of those things are true, I enjoy dancing with a guy who's great at dancing, and has gross coffee breath.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Created2Write said:


> Honestly, the danger isn't always the circumstance, imo, *the danger is when things are kept from the spouse*. My husband and I understand the importance of *open communication without judgment*, which was why I made sure to tell him whenever I was flirted with by anyone is that class, and especially about the butt comment from the one guy.


 This is how we look at such things also....very strongly, you know I am the 100% Transparency woman on TAM - ha ha 

It all starts with just a little undisclosed secret here... another there... *this* is the danger.... Every EA starts out with some form of secrecy... internal rationalizing "I can handle this- he/she doesn't need to know" - but still... our conscience is bothered...or should be!! 

If our consciences can grace over such things... knowing we have stopped telling our spouse everything (where we once did whole heartily)....we know we've stepped over a line/ a fence - in our







's....the slippery slope has begun.... 



> And he tells me when women flirt with him. We don't punish each other for something the person who was flirting did. But we are honest when things potentially get to what we deem for us to be an *uncomfortable scenario*. We talk, we consider our boundaries, decide if they've been entirely breached or merely tested, and then decide on a reasonable course of action.


 :smthumbup: 



> If I were to keep these things from my husband, then yes, I would see the potential danger.


 Yes, I think of this thread ....about the *POWER OF SECRETS*..








http://talkaboutmarriage.com/articles/993-sex-lies-secrets-secrecy-destroying-your-marriage.html











> If my husband I were in a weak point in our marriage, I wouldn't even be going dancing. I would be putting the time and effort into _us_. But since neither of those things are true, I enjoy dancing with a guy who's great at dancing, and has gross coffee breath.


 and this is very WISE...you hold firm to that.


----------



## arbitrator

SA; Now you know why I enjoy reading your posts so much. You and your better half just seem to exemplify the institution of marriage to the potential that I have always dreamed about.

You two are so very special and I absolutely love how your love and devotion for each other just bleeds through in your writing. I really can't speak for everyone here at TAM, but I for one, completely love your commentary and enjoy seeing the true example that you set of how married love was always intended to be! God bless!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

arbitrator said:


> SA; Now you know why I enjoy reading your posts so much. You and your better half just seem to exemplify the institution of marriage to the potential that I have always dreamed about.
> 
> You two are so very special and I absolutely love how your love and devotion for each other just bleeds through in your writing. I really can't speak for everyone here at TAM, but I for one, completely love your commentary and enjoy seeing the true example that you set of how married love was always intended to be! God bless!



Oh Arbitrator, your words had me yank my glasses off ~ with a few tears ... That's so very kind of you ...


----------



## Entropy3000

C2W,

I can see by your posts in this thread and the progessive love thread where you are coming from.

If you were doing any of this against your husbands wishes I would be compelled to critisize because I would see that as being unfaithful. From your posts I think you would agree. But you have been clear in that you are being totally transparent and this is what you and your husband want.

As I have said all marriages have some level of openess in them. Some level of monogamy in them. One hopes that ones boundaries are compatible with the level of desired level in the marriage. This is the choice of the couple. Wondermous.


----------



## lovelygirl

Yeah, I guess it's whatever works for the couple. As long as both partners agree to a specific level of boundaries then that's what it matters.


----------



## Thundarr

arbitrator said:


> SA; Now you know why I enjoy reading your posts so much. You and your better half just seem to exemplify the institution of marriage to the potential that I have always dreamed about.
> 
> You two are so very special and I absolutely love how your love and devotion for each other just bleeds through in your writing. I really can't speak for everyone here at TAM, but I for one, completely love your commentary and enjoy seeing the true example that you set of how married love was always intended to be! God bless!


:iagree:. In addition Simply has a unique perspective because she and her husband don't fit the stereotypical norms in many ways.


----------



## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> Yeah, I guess it's whatever works for the couple. As long as both partners agree to a specific level of boundaries then that's what it matters.


This trumps all.

The problems come in when one partner or the other is not "all-in" with the marital boundaries or there are unrealistic expectations. We see examples all the time with people saying, I was all for this because I did not want to be jealous, insecure or controlling. Ultimately that is on the spouse who is a conflict avoider and is unwilling to assert their boundaries. So all I can say if you are not ok with a situation speak up or you become part of the problem. One can become an enabler.

But indeed without critisizing an individual on here if it is ok to praise someones maritial decisions and promote a certain level of openess then it has to be ok for others to speak up and point out what the dangers might be to other marriages. This is Talk About Marriage. Folks reading these threads need to get a balance of ideas. Some folks are looking for a tighter view of monogamy and others a more open view. They should see both.

If not then this is Talk About Radical Monogamy or Talk About Open Marriage.


----------



## Entropy3000

Created2Write said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Honestly, the danger isn't always the circumstance, imo, the danger is when things are kept from the spouse. My husband and I understand the importance of open communication without judgment, which was why I made sure to tell him whenever I was flirted with by anyone is that class, and especially about the butt comment from the one guy. And he tells me when women flirt with him. We don't punish each other for something the person who was flirting did. But we are honest when things potentially get to what we deem for us to be an uncomfortable scenario. We talk, we consider our boundaries, decide if they've been entirely breached or merely tested, and then decide on a reasonable course of action.
> 
> If I were to keep these things from my husband, then yes, I would see the potential danger. *If my husband I were in a weak point in our marriage, I wouldn't even be going dancing. I would be putting the time and effort into us.* But since neither of those things are true, I enjoy dancing with a guy who's great at dancing, and has gross coffee breath.


This is key.


----------



## Created2Write

Entropy3000 said:


> C2W,
> 
> I can see by your posts in this thread and the progessive love thread where you are coming from.
> 
> If you were doing any of this against your husbands wishes I would be compelled to critisize because I would see that as being unfaithful. From your posts I think you would agree. But you have been clear in that you are being totally transparent and this is what you and your husband want.
> 
> As I have said all marriages have some level of openess in them. Some level of monogamy in them. One hopes that ones boundaries are compatible with the level of desired level in the marriage. This is the choice of the couple. Wondermous.


Thanks.  Honesty is truly essential in battling temptations, and I believe that being entirely honest, even with the little things, helps to strengthen the foundations and allow for OSF without the dangers.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Entropy3000 said:


> *One hopes that ones boundaries are compatible with the level of desired level in the marriage. *


:iagree:

Created,

In every marriage the dynamics are different. The people involved are also different. A person is the product or the sum total of their life's experiences. Some people have strong personal boundaries others have weak ones.

But boundaries must be strong enough to recognize and deal with the external risks / incursions.
A common mistake is to underestimate the nature of these threats. Many times they come in forms not easily recognizable.
Sometimes one partner sees it, but because of the situation at the present time in the marriage [ maybe a rough patch] the other partner sees them as jealous, insecure or controlling.
At the same time , the OSF appears more understanding than your partner.
Only an honest, mature person with strong personal boundaries would recognize this as potentially dangerous, and deal with it decisively.

I have maximum respect for you and your husband, and I know that you are an honest person.
I wish you guys the very best!


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## meson

lovelygirl said:


> Yeah, I guess it's whatever works for the couple. As long as both partners agree to a specific level of boundaries then that's what it matters.


Boundaries are good but more is required. As C2W mentioned, one needs to be able to discuss the situation with your spouse and decide what to do. Then one needs to respect your spouses opinion and defer to them even if you disagree. Otherwise the boundaries won't mean anything.


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## Coffee Amore

meson said:


> Boundaries are good but more is required. As C2W mentioned, one needs to be able to discuss the situation with your spouse and decide what to do. Then one needs to respect your spouses opinion and defer to them even if you disagree. Otherwise the boundaries won't mean anything.


:iagree:

I agree. Even though I have some casual platonic male friends (they don't come to my house, I don't go to theirs, we don't go out at night alone and I don't tell them anything remotely personal), if my husband said a particular friend made him uncomfortable, I would drop that male friend. I've said that before. My husband comes first. No friendship is more important than the friendship and bond I have with my husband. We're very open about what we feel. Yesterday when I was out for a jog with one of my children, there was a man jogging ahead of me who was in phenomenal shape. After I came home, I told my husband about it and we have some good laughs, lighthearted teasing about it. That's how we roll. He can tell me he saw someone attractive somewhere and just him noticing doesn't make me jealous. I feel the very fact we CAN talk to each openly and feel safe talking to each other protects us in a better way than any rigid boundary can.


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## Caribbean Man

meson said:


> Boundaries are good but more is required. As C2W mentioned, one needs to be able to discuss the situation with your spouse and decide what to do. *Then one needs to respect your spouses opinion and defer to them even if you disagree. * Otherwise the boundaries won't mean anything.


:iagree:
Yes !
That is what I meant to say!

But often times, the " deferral " part is hard to swallow.

What works in our marriage is that I do the " screening " firstly. There are thing I KNOW my wife would be uncomfortable with so I just don't bother with it.
Its not necessary.
I once had the opportunity to go to a trade show in China when I worked with this particular female designer [ _a very good friend of mine and business mentor_] and her fashion house.
It was a good opportunity,I ran the idea by my wife. She said ok, but deep down i knew she would be a little worried.
I decided not to go. It was not necessary that I go , even thought I wanted to go.


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## sandc

Once again, SA diffuses a raucous thread.

I guess I'm coming from a point of that doesn't really understand the constant flirty behavior. Attractive women must be much more used to dealing with and diffusing it because it's so common. I mean if a woman starts getting flirty with me I just assume something wrong with her... mentally. I mean, what woman targets short fat ugly guys?


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## meson

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> Yes !
> That is what I meant to say!
> 
> But often times, the " deferral " part is hard to swallow.


Glad to see youre back CMan. 

Yes the deferral part is difficult and that is the lesson I took from TAM and applied in my case.


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## arbitrator

sandc said:


> I mean, what woman targets short fat ugly guys?


I don't rightfully know! But you might start off by asking my STBXW~ as one of her OM fastly met that criteria!


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## Created2Write

meson said:


> Boundaries are good but more is required. As C2W mentioned, one needs to be able to discuss the situation with your spouse and decide what to do. Then one needs to respect your spouses opinion and defer to them even if you disagree. Otherwise the boundaries won't mean anything.


SUCH a great point.


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## Entropy3000

sandc said:


> Once again, SA diffuses a raucous thread.
> 
> I guess I'm coming from a point of that doesn't really understand the constant flirty behavior. Attractive women must be much more used to dealing with and diffusing it because it's so common. I mean if a woman starts getting flirty with me I just assume something wrong with her... mentally. I mean, what woman targets short fat ugly guys?


Kudos to you for being able to have self deprecating humor. Seriously that is a good quality. However do not sell yourself short, no pun intended.


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## Caribbean Man

sandc said:


> Once again, SA diffuses a raucous thread.
> 
> I guess I'm coming from a point of that doesn't really understand the constant flirty behavior. Attractive women must be much more used to dealing with and diffusing it because it's so common. I mean if a woman starts getting flirty with me I just assume something wrong with her... mentally. I mean, what woman targets short fat ugly guys?


Come on sandc!

Lets be honest.
What woman would not flirt or target a man who has lived in the Caribbean, own a * private jet * and visits Hawaii regularly?


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## sandc

arbitrator said:


> I don't rightfully know! But you might start off by asking my STBXW~ as one of her OM fastly met that criteria!


It wasn't me I swear!


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## sandc

Caribbean Man said:


> Come on sandc!
> 
> Lets be honest.
> What woman would not flirt or target a man who has lived in the Caribbean, own a * private jet * and visits Hawaii regularly?


Well... 99.99999% of women.  Luckily I married one of the .000001%

I visited Hawaii once but I have to tell you my heart is still in the Caribbean. Such a beautiful part of the world with the warmest people to be found anywhere.


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## FalconKing

And all ended well in the TAM community....


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## Tony55

Coffee Amore said:


> We're very open about what we feel. Yesterday when I was out for a jog with one of my children, there was a man jogging ahead of me who was in phenomenal shape. After I came home, I told my husband about it and we have some good laughs, lighthearted teasing about it. That's how we roll. He can tell me he saw someone attractive somewhere and just him noticing doesn't make me jealous. I feel the very fact we CAN talk to each openly and feel safe talking to each other protects us in a better way than any rigid boundary can.


And this is something that a confident couple loses if one of the two betrays the marriage, this very special comfort of being able to acknowledge other peoples attractiveness or sexiness, it's fun, it's like being best friends, telling each other, wow, she was hot, or wow, that man looked nice... all that goes out the window once insecurity takes root in a marriage. I'm not sure this comfort level ever returns to where it was before a spouses infidelity. I don't personally know, I didn't wait around long enough to find out, but if it never comes back, then it's a sad, sad, loss to the marriage.

T


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## arbitrator

sandc said:


> It wasn't me I swear!


You're totally absolved, *sandc*! After all, STBXW's beau is/was not only fat, but as ugly as hell!

In fact, I have it on good authority that he was actually a very homely child~ so homely in fact, that as a baby, they had to tie a pork chop around his neck to try to get the family dog to play with him!


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## TRy

Created2Write said:


> If my husband I were in a weak point in our marriage, I wouldn't even be going dancing. I would be putting the time and effort into _us_.


 Print this out, sign it, and give it to you husband. If you ever are in a weak point of your marraige, and are in an emotional affair fog, that is not the time for you to be deciding if giving up dancing to focus on your marriage is the right thing to do. 

We must all decide what works for ourselves. Be well. I wish you the best.


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## sandc

FalconKing said:


> And all ended well in the TAM community....


God bless us, everyone!


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## meson

TRy said:


> Print this out, sign it, and give it to you husband. If you ever are in a weak point of your marraige, and are in an emotional affair fog, that is not the time for you to be deciding if giving up dancing to focus on your marriage is the right thing to do.
> 
> We must all decide what works for ourselves. Be well. I wish you the best.


You are right that is not the best time to decide. But those of us that do place high value in our marriages can and do make the right choices at the wrong time. I did. I was deep in the fog when something my wife said and the tone in which she said it caused me reevaluate what I was doing and pull my self out. 

For those of us that can honestly step back and look at ourselves it is very possible. The hundreds of threads where it turns out for the worse litter the archives of TAM but that does not mean it is a necessary consequence for everyone in that situation. 

My experience is a complete counter example to the canonical wisdom of TAM and that wisdom is correct for most of the CWI threads. But it is not always the only possibility or a necessary outcome.


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## sandc

arbitrator said:


> You're totally absolved, *sandc*! After all, STBXW's beau is/was not only fat, but as ugly as hell!
> 
> In fact, I have it on good authority that he was actually a very homely child~ so homely in fact, that as a baby, they had to tie a pork chop around his neck to try to get the family dog to play with him!


You forgot, he was so ugly that when he was born, the doctor slapped his mother.


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## that_girl

I think any friend can pose an issue. For me it hasn't been men.


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## Thundarr

sandc said:


> You forgot, he was so ugly that when he was born, the doctor slapped his mother.


If my dog had his face I'd shave it's butt and teach it to walk backwards.


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## sandc

Guess it's time to move this threadjack over to the "Inappropriate jokes you couldn't put in the original thread" thread.


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## Numb in Ohio

Opinions,,,

Can you be "just friends" with an ex ( spouse or gf/bf) ?

If years have past, can you lose that "attraction", but still be close friends?


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## that_girl

Ohio, No. I don't think so.

I am pleasant with my ex, for our kid's sake. But in 5 years when she's grown, screw that guy.


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## Numb in Ohio

that_girl said:


> Ohio, No. I don't think so.
> 
> I am pleasant with my ex, for our kid's sake. But in 5 years when she's grown, screw that guy.


I very much doubt you can either... Was just adding ... with the bs story I got when I caught him talking to "friends" from his past. LOL.


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## Tony55

that_girl said:


> I think any friend can pose an issue. For me it hasn't been men.


That_girl, I'm curious, are you saying that for you it hasn't been men, in the context of a friendship becoming physical, or just in the context of creating a problem in the marriage?

T


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## that_girl

I'm saying it can happen with any sex. Not really cause an issue, per se, but it can go both ways.


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## Thundarr

Numb in Ohio said:


> Opinions,,,
> 
> Can you be "just friends" with an ex ( spouse or gf/bf) ?
> 
> If years have past, can you lose that "attraction", but still be close friends?


I'd say most people would not be comfortable with their spouse being friends with an ex. I certainly would be very skittish about it.


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## Tony55

that_girl said:


> I'm saying it can happen with any sex. Not really cause an issue, per se, but it can go both ways.


I'm sorry, I still don't understand, in the spirit of the topic, _'Do all opposite sex friendships become physical sooner or later?'_, are you saying that both opposite sex and same sex friendships may become physical sooner or later?

T


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## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> I'd say most people would not be comfortable with their spouse being friends with an ex. I certainly would be very skittish about it.


I agree, but it depends on the type of relationship they had with the ex too.
My wife had these two guys who were
" hopelessly in love " with her from her neighbourhood, before I came in her life.
They have always kept hanging around, trying, even though she had 
" friend zoned " them .
After we got married she still had them as friends, and they still come over for lunch with us and so forth.
I have never seen them as a threat and they respect our marriage . They are both married with children now.

However , there are some other guys I don't even want around her.


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## NextTimeAround

Numb in Ohio said:


> Opinions,,,
> 
> Can you be "just friends" with an ex ( spouse or gf/bf) ?
> 
> If years have past, can you lose that "attraction", but still be close friends?


I'd like to keep an open mind and say yes, but under a fair few conditions.

My exH stayed friends with his ex. She did try some funny business in behaving inappropriately around him in front of me. But I still don't think she ever wanted to have sex with him again. 

So really the issue for me is how does my partner's ex regard me: Is she going to treat me like some obstacle she has to work around or is she going to treat us like one social unit as one should??


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## SimplyAmorous

> *SimplyAmorous said*: He did tell me he wouldn't like it (the dancing with a flirty good looking man)... I asked if he'd MAKE me stop if I made a case out of it ....he said he wouldn't "make me"/ enforce it ...... but he would be *uncomfortable* and it would show in his daily interactions with me...basically building to a contention, a disrespect on my part.


There was a part of this I left out in my husband's thinking when I posted... he did say alot about it , but I forgot...it wouldn't be that he DIStrusted *me* at all... but a dancer is not a "friend"...and He (my husband) is not one to trust anyone he doesn't know well/knows his history... meaning even if he wasn't good looking, even if he looked like







...he wouldn't like me being that close to someone - because of THEIR intentions, what if they are a stalker/ crazy...he just doesn't trust other people , what hidden motives/intentions they may have. 

So really his thoughts had nothing to do with "looks" as I made it come across... now from MY END... the







looks could cause some "stirring" . 



Thundarr said:


> :iagree:. In addition Simply has a unique perspective because she and her husband don't fit the stereotypical norms in many ways.


Yes, we are both a little ODD &







in terms of the typical. I do so try to understand where others are coming from, putting myself in their shoes... even though often times it's foreign to our personal experience. 



> *Entropy3000 said*: But indeed without critisizing an individual on here if it is ok to praise someones maritial decisions and promote a certain level of openess then it has to be ok for others to speak up and point out what the dangers might be to other marriages. This is Talk About Marriage. Folks reading these threads need to get a balance of ideas. Some folks are looking for a tighter view of monogamy and others a more open view. They should see both.
> 
> If not then this is *Talk About Radical Monogamy* or *Talk About Open Marriage*.


I like that







We are purely Pro monogamy... praise it ! Where I find me & my husband different than many is on the privacy issue... what we share.... their are things he has said to me I would not even put on this forum -as another wife would cry ..."Disrespect!" - she'd put him in the dog house for saying it/ he'd never live it down ... but I asked !! So what the hell...& in my opinion, it is purely "normal" anyway....fantasies & such. 

I know he'd never be with another, heck, how rare is it for a man to restrain from even masterbating his entire marriage while craving more sex, even suffering for more . Why....he felt like that was "cheating" on his GF/wife...(his words).... talk about a very sensitive conscience! That's my husband! When I learned this, I told him I was a cheater then! So it even makes sense why in our marriage, a little Porn is surely not a big deal....like at all.. His heart devotion to our intimacy & how he values it speaks volumes- turn up the loud speaker. 



> *Originally Posted by Coffee Amore*
> We're very open about what we feel. Yesterday when I was out for a jog with one of my children, there was a man jogging ahead of me who was in phenomenal shape. After I came home, I told my husband about it and we have some good laughs, lighthearted teasing about it. That's how we roll. He can tell me he saw someone attractive somewhere and just him noticing doesn't make me jealous. I feel the very fact we CAN talk to each openly and feel safe talking to each other protects us in a better way than any rigid boundary can.


 We are the same way.. 100%... again, this is frowned on many times on this forum -for being "disrespectful" though. Given the circumstances that lead some here with distrust though, I can sympathize. 

I think women can get away with this far more than men though... I feel only if the couple are BOTH this way ...with that secure foundation laid with each other....can it work & even be an enjoyable -even a funny exchange. 

Me & my husband are both admittedly *visual*.. He knows what turns my head, they generally look like a drug addicted grungy rock star....(which I would despise the lifestyle anyway- so who cares!)... and he'd feast his eyes on the Brunette who could pass for a Playboy Bunny (without tattoos, a boob job or piercings of course)....he wouldn't want her lifestyle either! 



> *Tony55 said*: And this is something that a confident couple *loses *if one of the two betrays the marriage, *this very special comfort of being able to acknowledge other peoples attractiveness or sexiness, it's fun, it's like being best friends, telling each other, wow, she was hot, or wow, that man looked nice...* all that goes out the window once insecurity takes root in a marriage. I'm not sure this comfort level ever returns to where it was before a spouses infidelity. I don't personally know, I didn't wait around long enough to find out, but if it never comes back, then it's a sad, sad, loss to the marriage.


 LOVE this post... :iagree: 110 %..... it is a LOSS... a loss of trust they may never get back... 

I so believe the reason me & mine are so very free flowing here is because of this comfort spoken here... we were







's before we even kissed... There has never been any betrayal... Even in dating, I was upfront honest every step of the way...I did break up with him once & dated another -it was short lived, I realized he was who I wanted for life, I never lied to him, or hid my intentions. 

My record for keeping something from him -that bothered my conscience ... was 3 days. And when I shared it with him, he LAUGHED !! What a great moment. He totally understood why I could have done what I did. (I will restrain from sharing this with the rest of you )... but just to say... my husband is ...well... very understanding of human nature... We all need to be this way. 

Now, don't get the wrong idea, he would be a jealous monster / crushed deeply / a trust we shared irrevocably lost.....if I crossed a line that meant my







was leaving him ...I know I hold what we share in the palms of my hands...I do not take this lightly...to trample on this beautiful life we've built .... No man could love me as much as he. Some things you just know. 



> *Meson said*: For those of us that can honestly step back and look at ourselves it is very possible.


 This is all about "*Self Awareness*"...... “A person who is aware of himself is in a better position to predict and control his own behavior.” (B. F. Skinner)


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## Created2Write

TRy said:


> Print this out, sign it, and give it to you husband. If you ever are in a weak point of your marraige, and are in an emotional affair fog, that is not the time for you to be deciding if giving up dancing to focus on your marriage is the right thing to do.
> 
> We must all decide what works for ourselves. Be well. I wish you the best.


I like to think that I don't have to print out my promises and sign them just to keep myself accountable.


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