# The Sexodus - another article on men giving up pursuit of women



## Jetranger

The Sexodus, Part 1: The Men Giving Up On Women And Checking Out Of Society

Number one in a series.

A lot of familiar ground, a retread of the 'marriage just isn't worth it' from that infamous WSJ article, but also a lot more railing against extreme feminists. There's also an interesting bit on how a mistimed attempt at a kiss now doesn't get a man branded as awkward or inept, but as borderline rapist.



> One professional researcher in his late thirties, about whom I have been conversing on this topic for some months, puts it spicily: "For the past, at least, 25 years, I've been told to do more and more to keep a woman. But nobody's told me what they're doing to keep me.
> 
> "I can tell you as a heterosexual married male in management, who didn’t drop out of society, the message from the chicks is: 'It's not just preferable that you should f*** off, but imperative. You must pay for everything and make everything work; but you yourself and your preferences and needs can f*** off and die.'"


Huh. Is the old saying now "Can't live with 'em... can live without 'em!"?


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## ChristianGrey

How long they can last with _blue balls_?


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## Jetranger

ChristianGrey said:


> How long they can last with _blue balls_?


As long as it takes a video to buffer on XHamster.


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## DoF

I'm just thankful I found a great women. I would NOT want to be in the dating world right now looking for someone special.

That sounds like the worst nightmare....


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## michzz

Nothing new here to see. 

Some men get bitter and cynical about women because they haven't found one that is suited to them.

Maybe if you tried a different approach, bought new clothes, had interesting things to say and do you might have better success?

Giving up is surely an option, but why?


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## unbelievable

ChristianGrey said:


> How long they can last with _blue balls_?


Considering that an American man is like a rock star in the eyes of most of the earth's females, there's little need for any of them to have discolored testicles.


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## Jellybeans

ChristianGrey said:


> How long they can last with _blue balls_?


:rofl:



unbelievable said:


> Considering that an American man is like a rock star in the eyes of most of the earth's females, there's little need for any of them to have discolored testicles.


 You guys are cracking me up.


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## Deejo

I don't know if this so much is about bitter men, quite so much as it is neither sex yet seems quite comfortable acknowledging that each has a role in the relationship.

Instead, we argue about eliminating roles, and then wonder why men aren't behaving like men.


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## Wolf1974

Its clear relationships are being overhauled. I think many men and some women don't see the need for commitment or marriage. I really believe in 50 years marriage will be unheard of outside deeply religious circles. 

Virtually nothing of value in a man getting married anymore. And aside from the fairly tale / romantic stuff a woman may feel about it not much in it for her either.

If you destroy traditional roles then things like traditions and ceremonies become meaningless like marriage is.


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## SimplyAmorous

Wolf1974 said:


> Its clear relationships are being overhauled. I think many men and some women don't see the need for commitment or marriage. I really believe in 50 years marriage will be unheard of outside deeply religious circles.
> 
> Virtually nothing of value in a man getting married anymore. And aside from the fairly tale / romantic stuff a woman may feel about it not much in it for her either.
> 
> If you destroy traditional roles then things like traditions and ceremonies become meaningless like marriage is.


   ... Just got this book in the mail yesterday....thought it would be a good read...along the same lines....








...Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters 



> American society has become anti-male. Men are sensing the backlash and are consciously and unconsciously going “on strike.” They are dropping out of college, leaving the workforce and avoiding marriage and fatherhood at alarming rates. The trend is so pronounced that a number of books have been written about this “man-child” phenomenon, concluding that men have taken a vacation from responsibility simply because they can. But why should men participate in a system that seems to be increasingly stacked against them?
> 
> As Men on Strike demonstrates, men aren’t dropping out because they are stuck in arrested development. They are instead acting rationally in response to the lack of incentives society offers them to be responsible fathers, husbands and providers. In addition, men are going on strike, either consciously or unconsciously, because they do not want to be injured by the myriad of laws, attitudes and hostility against them for the crime of happening to be male in the twenty-first century. Men are starting to fight back against the backlash. Men on Strike explains their battle cry.


The 2nd review under the book... another opting out of the traditional lifestyle.. it's all that makes sense -to save himself. 



> "I think marriage and family are probably the best things you could possibly have in life. Having said that, why am I single and childless? Too risky. Divorce rate is too high. Households headed by married adults are now in the minority. The rate of increase in female perpetrated crime continues to skyrocket. Jobs are scarce. A large percentage of well educated women don't want kids or want them late in life. There are fatherless kids all over the place. One slip up with a woman and your life could be ruined.
> 
> I'm one of the many `on strike', which is wise considering the potential consequences and all that I might come up against in today's legal and economic climate. I'm well educated, have a great career, my own home, yada...yada...yada. No way am I betting all that on the flip of a coin. I can't even fathom how families with children handle divorce. Must be the most soul crushing thing in life for all involved. I consider what I'm doing to be identical to what women have done over the past 40+ years. I'm opting out of the traditional way of life.
> 
> This is an 'early an age as they can handle it' must read for all males. This book should be the start of a men's studies course in college. Just imagine the talk after that school paper announcement! HA!
> 
> The other day, a friend of mine told me that his girlfriend dialed 911 during an argument. I was rendered speechless. A chill ran down my spine. It is painfully simple to ruin someone's life with a phone call these days."


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## EleGirl

That's funny. Someone forgot to tell this to my son, daughter and all their friends... There is a lot of very normal dating and even marriages going on.

Oh well. The article is written to attract people to the website. I guess it worked.


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## Moops

I'm also considering giving up on women. 

In the not so distant future we will have AI robots who acts, looks and thinks exactly like real human beings. You know what this means? Unlimited amount of women for all men.

Say some companys decides to mass manufacture say I don't know... 14 billion female AI robots ... all of them good looking offcourse. Then women would outnumber men on a ratio of 4 to 1.


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## EleGirl

Moops said:


> I'm also considering giving up on women.
> 
> In the not so distant future we will have AI robots who acts, looks and thinks exactly like real human beings. You know what this means? Unlimited amount of women for all men.
> 
> Say some companys decides to mass manufacture say I don't know... 14 billion female AI robots ... all of them good looking offcourse. Then women would outnumber men on a ratio of 4 to 1.


:rofl: Do you have any idea how much those robots will cost?

If they act exactly like humans, then they will act exactly like women... so you will not like them either.


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## Moops

EleGirl said:


> :rofl: Do you have any idea how much those robots will cost?
> 
> If they act exactly like humans, then they will act exactly like women... so you will not like them either.


Coumputers when they first appeared were also way to expensive for the average joe to ever attain.

Give it time. Eventually AI robots will become cheap enough for anybody to buy it I'm sure.

I'm thinking one can "program" them in some way before their consciousness is turned on. For example maybe they could be programmed to desire sex as much as men.


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## Holland

It is a good thing if sooky pants men drop out, we really don't need them in the gene pool.


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## EleGirl

Moops said:


> Coumputers when they first appeared were also way to expensive for the average joe to ever attain.
> 
> Give it time. Eventually AI robots will become cheap enough for anybody to buy it I'm sure.
> 
> I'm thinking one can "program" them in some way before their consciousness is turned on. For example maybe they could be programmed to desire sex as much as men.


Computers and machines have no desire. They can go through the motions but that's about it. A blow up doll is about the same thing.


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## norajane

I'll believe men are dropping out of society when men no longer run Congress, our state legislatures, and pretty much every major corporation out there.

I'll believe men will give up on women...never. 

As for marriage, it's not for everyone, and there's no requirement that it be for everyone. Couples can have healthy relationships without marriage, if they don't want to marry. People can choose how to live the lives best for them, and should.


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## EleGirl

Holland said:


> It is a good thing if sooky pants men drop out, we really don't need them in the gene pool.


No kidding.

The constant threads basing women and TAM is getting more than tiresome.


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## Moops

EleGirl said:


> Computers and machines have no desire. They can go through the motions but that's about it. A blow up doll is about the same thing.


AI robots would basicly be manufactued humans, not machines. Have you ever seen Blade Runner? The replicants(aka AI robots) in that movie abosutley had desires and wants and emotions just like any normal human being. In some cases they didn't even know they weren't human.

Thats how I enivision the future. I will have a dozen "replicants" of Jennifer Aniston(1995 model) in my home who wants to **** my brains out every night.


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## Holland

EleGirl said:


> No kidding.
> 
> The constant threads basing women and TAM is getting more than tiresome.


It is low self esteem. I can see why TBH, women are free to be stronger and more open about what they want. 
The good guys, you know the ones that women do want are becoming more in tune with themselves and women.

This leaves the poor old sooky man/child left out which will only amplify his (general) shortcomings.


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## EleGirl

Moops said:


> AI robots would basicly be manufactued humans, not machines. Have you ever seen Blade Runner? The replicants(aka AI robots) in that movie abosutley had desires and wants and emotions just like any normal human being. In some cases they didn't even know they weren't human.
> 
> Thats how I enivision the future. I will have a dozen "replicants" of Jennifer Aniston(1995 model) in my home who wants to **** my brains out every night.


Yes... I get what you are talking about. It's nice science fiction. 

I'm an engineer and a deal in software as well. I have a very good concept of that it would take to replicate humans and program the resulting creature. There are HUGE moral concerns about this as well. 

You see, if we can manufacture humans and program them. Then we can program humans. When we can do that, we can just reprogram you to fix this distorted image you have of women. See how nicely that works?


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## EleGirl

Holland said:


> It is low self esteem. I can see why TBH, women are free to be stronger and more open about what they want.
> 
> The good guys, you know the ones that women do want are becoming more in tune with themselves and women.
> 
> This leaves the poor old sooky man/child left out which will only amplify his (general) shortcomings.


Yep, there are lots of very strong, good men who are not having any problem at all with all of this.


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## Moops

EleGirl said:


> Yes... I get what you are talking about. It's nice science fiction.
> 
> I'm an engineer and a deal in software as well. I have a very good concept of that it would take to replicate humans and program the resulting creature. There are HUGE moral concerns about this as well.
> 
> You see, if we can manufacture humans and program them. Then we can program humans. *When we can do that, we can just reprogram you to fix this distorted image you have of women. See how nicely that works?*


True. I prefer my scenario of a dozen Jennifer Aniston replicants though.


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## EleGirl

Moops said:


> True. I prefer my scenario of a dozen Jennifer Aniston replicants though.


You have fun with that vision ... :rofl:


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## Holland

Moops said:


> AI robots would basicly be manufactued humans, not machines. Have you ever seen Blade Runner? *The replicants(aka AI robots) in that movie abosutley had desires and wants and emotions just like any normal human being. In some cases they didn't even know they weren't human.*
> 
> Thats how I enivision the future. I will have a dozen "replicants" of Jennifer Aniston(1995 model) in my home who wants to **** my brains out every night.


Problem with your scenario is that the AI Jen won't be attracted to you for the very same reason real life women aren't.

Yeah I think the best suggestion is a blow up doll.


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## ChristianGrey

DoF said:


> I'm just thankful I found a great *women*. I would NOT want to be in the dating world right now looking for someone special.


I see what you did there.



unbelievable said:


> Considering that an American man is like a rock star in the eyes of most of the earth's females, there's little need for any of them to have discolored testicles.


Never realized that the _Lottery of Birth_ also saves you from testicular discoloration.



Jellybeans said:


> :rofl:
> 
> You guys are cracking me up.


We are having a serious discussion. 

Survival of our species depends on it.


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## ChristianGrey

Moops said:


> True. I prefer my scenario of a dozen Jennifer Aniston replicants though.


That would be the epitome of monogamy.


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## heartsbeating

EleGirl said:


> Yes... I get what you are talking about. It's nice science fiction.
> 
> I'm an engineer and a deal in software as well. I have a very good concept of that it would take to replicate humans and program the resulting creature. There are HUGE moral concerns about this as well.
> 
> You see, if we can manufacture humans and program them. Then we can program humans. When we can do that, we can just reprogram you to fix this distorted image you have of women. See how nicely that works?


Seems to me, most of us are already programmed with some bullsh!t that needs to be unlearned. Maybe when the robots figure out they're smarter than us, they'll reprogram us all.


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## ConanHub

Moops said:


> AI robots would basicly be manufactued humans, not machines. Have you ever seen Blade Runner? The replicants(aka AI robots) in that movie abosutley had desires and wants and emotions just like any normal human being. In some cases they didn't even know they weren't human.
> 
> Thats how I enivision the future. I will have a dozen "replicants" of Jennifer Aniston(1995 model) in my home who wants to **** my brains out every night.


Dude, you are actually coming off lame.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FormerSelf

I think a replicant Jennifer would give no play...as she would be busy pining after replicant Brad who left her for replicant Angelina.


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## Moops

ConanHub said:


> Dude, you are actually coming off lame.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you have a point or did you just want to insult me?


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## ConanHub

You are insulting yourself. Blade Runner was a great movie but clearly against generating people for slavery.

You need to stop thinking with your willy. If you were not committed to appearing pathetic and worked on yourself, you could have your choice of many good women.

Are you married?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Moops

ConanHub said:


> You are insulting yourself. Blade Runner was a great movie but clearly against generating people for slavery.
> 
> You need to stop thinking with your willy. If you were not committed to appearing pathetic and worked on yourself, you could have your choice of many good women.
> 
> *Are you married?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, because clearly I was completley 100% serious about generating female sex slaves for my own pleasure. What can I say. I lack moral fiber.

No.


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## ChristianGrey

Well, if they are programmed to be slaves than I don't think they will mind as that will be the only thing they know.

Do you guys think Google is happy to run around looking for all those stupid and obnoxious search requests?


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## ConanHub

Moops said:


> Yes, because clearly I was completley 100% serious about generating female sex slaves for my own pleasure. What can I say. I lack moral fiber.
> 
> No.


From all your other posts, it is hard to tell. You don't really seem to have a healthy grasp of the reality of make/female relations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Moops

ConanHub said:


> From all your other posts, it is hard to tell. You don't really seem to have a healthy grasp of the reality of make/female relations.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a silly discussion. But its my fault. I made a silly post. I am a pathetic, lonely and frustrated guy.


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## ConanHub

Moops said:


> This is a silly discussion. But its my fault. I made a silly post. I am a pathetic, lonely and frustrated guy.


Well, maybe you don't have to stay that way? There really are some great people here with good wisdom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChristianGrey

Moops said:


> This is a silly discussion. But its my fault. I made a silly post. I am a pathetic, lonely and frustrated guy.


Not good enough man. 

You really need to tell us how you really feel and then click _submit reply_ like you mean it.


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## JCD

Holland said:


> It is low self esteem. I can see why TBH, women are free to be stronger and more open about what they want.
> The good guys, you know the ones that women do want are becoming more in tune with themselves and women.
> 
> This leaves the poor old sooky man/child left out which will only amplify his (general) shortcomings.





EleGirl said:


> Yep, there are lots of very strong, good men who are not having any problem at all with all of this.


You can also be a strong confident man who actually has options and say 'this is a pretty dismal scenario legally and culturally as a dating man' and think very hard about much you are willing to invest in a relationship which is more likely than not to fail.

And by this trepidation, you essentially assure that the relationship will fail.

This is not to say that the women don't have their own fears and are exactly giving it their all! Frankly both genders right now seem to have their hands firmly on the 'ejector' lever and it only takes a twitch or a misunderstanding to have someone bail.

This is disconcerting.


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## ChristianGrey

This is what happens when you can buy food from the super markets.

Men are obsolete and women have got balls now.


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## JCD

Our Future...Ack!


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## JCD

I dunno.

If we are going to play the 'sexual fantasy' game, I don't think I'd pick Sex-bots. Think of the electric bill.

I'd prefer to have aphrodisiac pheromones or some such.

Or, if we are going the full wish route, just wish I was sexually irresistible.

Though honestly, with a little thought, that sounds dangerous.


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## Married but Happy

Robots will be great! Until they become intelligent enough to campaign for robot liberation and become robotists, robonazis., or lesbots. Then when they disconnect from you they'll require lifetime batteries and recharges in the settlement.


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## unbelievable

ChristianGrey said:


> This is what happens when you can buy food from the super markets.
> 
> Men are obsolete and women have got balls now.


Men are obsolete. Got it. That's why over 75% of adults receiving welfare in America are female. Even in 2014, relatively few American women are completely supporting themselves. The myth of men being unnecessary has given us a dramatic increase in violent kids and a decrease in academic achievement. 

Marriage benefits American women and kids but in it's current version, it offers few benefits for the adult male. I've had women on this very forum tell me that a man has no right to expect anything at all from his wife. Why would a man sign on to be a disrespected ATM machine for life when the world is chock full of women who would be thrilled to treat him like a king?


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## JCD

unbelievable said:


> Men are obsolete. Got it. That's why over 75% of adults receiving welfare in America are female. Even in 2014, relatively few American women are completely supporting themselves. The myth of men being unnecessary has given us a dramatic increase in violent kids and a decrease in academic achievement.
> 
> Marriage benefits American women and kids but in it's current version, it offers few benefits for the adult male. I've had women on this very forum tell me that a man has no right to expect anything at all from his wife. Why would a man sign on to be a disrespected ATM machine for life when the world is chock full of women who would be thrilled to treat him like a king?


The fact that it benefits my kids is sufficient for me.


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## SimplyAmorous

Wolf1974 said:


> If you destroy traditional roles then things like traditions and ceremonies become meaningless like marriage is.


Sadly this is the fall out..commitmentless to marriage , stability takes the biggest hit on our kids..and this is now "their normal".. I DO NOT see better things for our future generations...

The father factor: What happens when dad is nowhere to be found? 



> More than half of babies of mothers under 30 are born out of wedlock. The divorce rate among those who do marry exceeds 40 percent, according to the 2012 State of Our Unions report.
> 
> These statistics play out most often in the form of absent fathers — or the arrival and departure of serial father figures involved in romantic relationships with a child’s mother. (Moms still usually retain custody in a breakup or divorce.) Twenty-four million American children — one in three — are growing up in homes without their biological fathers, the 2011 Census says. Children in father-absent homes, it notes, are almost four times more likely to be poor.
> 
> Like Ott, now 25, children may grow up with lots of father figures but no real dad.....
> 
> The dad factor
> “I think there’s consensus that cultural and family factors are causing children’s family lives to be more unstable than in the past,” said Andrew J. Cherlin, author of "The Marriage-Go-Round" and director of the Hopkins Population Center at Johns Hopkins University. Experts debate whether *recent cultural shifts* or *economic changes* most undermine family stability, but, said Cherlin, “most who I respect believe both are at play.”


I think these are real problems...and I also feel, as women, *we need to start listening to the Men who are opting out*...instead of insulting them...if they see very little incentive to commit to a woman these days... this is not a good trend for society, for our culture , or for our children...I DO hope my daughter finds a good man , settles down , raises a family ,a husband by her side....

I have to agree with Wolf though, it's more those holding onto some form of religious belief..such men are more likely to hold to Traditional anything these days...against the naysayers...I really don't see that anyone else much cares, only sees it as *an option*...and not one to even aspire to... they invite the changes with open arms. 

This seems to be written by a feminist...and I agree with it !

Why Men Do Not Want to Marry - The Feminine Woman â€” Femininity - Dating & Relationship Advice for Women - The Feminine Woman


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## unbelievable

JCD said:


> The fact that it benefits my kids is sufficient for me.


Good for you. That works right up until your wife dumps you and a judge hands her your kids. Even if the marriage survives, kids grow up and leave. Then what? You're going to dangle on a cross of disrespect and exploitation for 70 years because doing so would give you about a 60% chance of improving life for your kid for 18 years?


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## ChristianGrey

unbelievable said:


> Men are obsolete. Got it. That's why over 75% of adults receiving welfare in America are female. Even in 2014, relatively few American women are completely supporting themselves. The myth of men being unnecessary has given us a dramatic increase in violent kids and a decrease in academic achievement.
> 
> Marriage benefits American women and kids but in it's current version, it offers few benefits for the adult male. I've had women on this very forum tell me that a man has no right to expect anything at all from his wife. Why would a man sign on to be a disrespected ATM machine for life when the world is chock full of women who would be thrilled to treat him like a king?


That is what I meant, but Im just tight with words.

I dont think it is a myth, it is a modern reality. Reading comments here, would make you realize that LD and HD are one of the biggest problems in a relationship.

Do you really need that much sex? Or would you really be wanting that much sex if you were working all day in the farm to save for winter and hadn't bathed for months in winter?

Sex and/or depression is what fills the vacuum left by a meaningless life.

There was a time when stupidity would get you killed in moments or slow agonizing death by starvation in harsh weather.

Re: kids, same thing. Who needs kids when you have pension plans.

I have known enough women so I know what you mean by being treated like a king. For a smart and man of understanding, the choice is whether to live a mediocre like with 1 woman or have fantastic life with many.

Just remember, get a woman a uniform and a job title like an Air Stewardess and she will serve coffee and lunch all day with a smile to the passengers and deal professionally every time they throw a tantrum but will not do that for a husband at home.

Not criticizing or approving anything, but just describing the world we live in at present.


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## ChristianGrey

Married but Happy said:


> Robots will be great! Until they become intelligent enough to campaign for robot liberation and become robotists, robonazis., or lesbots. Then when they disconnect from you they'll require lifetime batteries and recharges in the settlement.


I think Im fine as things are now. Vacuum has been invented and don't think its going to get any more intelligent.


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## unbelievable

ChristianGrey said:


> That is what I meant, but Im just tight with words.
> 
> I dont think it is a myth, it is a modern reality. Reading comments here, would make you realize that LD and HD are one of the biggest problems in a relationship.
> 
> Do you really need that much sex? Or would you really be wanting that much sex if you were working all day in the farm to save for winter and hadn't bathed for months in winter?
> 
> Sex and/or depression is what fills the vacuum left by a meaningless life.
> 
> There was a time when stupidity would get you killed in moments or slow agonizing death by starvation in harsh weather.
> 
> Re: kids, same thing. Who needs kids when you have pension plans.
> 
> I have known enough women so I know what you mean by being treated like a king. For a smart and man of understanding, the choice is whether to live a mediocre like with 1 woman or have fantastic life with many.
> 
> Just remember, get a woman a uniform and a job title like an Air Stewardess and she will serve coffee and lunch all day with a smile to the passengers and deal professionally every time they throw a tantrum but will not do that for a husband at home.
> 
> Not criticizing or approving anything, but just describing the world we live in at present.



There is actually a third choice you haven't mentioned. A man can still have a life partner, be respected and appreciated, have all the sex his body can possibly stand, get at least two home cooked meals a day. He only needs to expand his pool of potential candidates to include those outside the United States. He can choose between a few 40 year old American women with bad attitudes about men or a limitless supply of hard bodied 25 year olds who view American men like winning the lottery. It's not only a choice between putting up with garbage or living alone and sleeping around. If you're an employed or even retired American male, the world is your oyster.


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## Forest

Doesn't most everyone around here believe that all men need to read and adapt to the "No More Mr. Nice GuY" or "MMSLP" books that are always mentioned?

This seems to suggest that men are being pushed to adapt, change, evolve like the article suggests. Men are expected to adapt to be better able to accept women, but not the reverse?

Then there's the standard advice, to buy these clothes, act this way, or buy a blow up doll.


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## ChristianGrey

unbelievable said:


> There is actually a third choice you haven't mentioned. A man can still have a life partner, be respected and appreciated, have all the sex his body can possibly stand, get at least two home cooked meals a day. He only needs to expand his pool of potential candidates to include those outside the United States. He can choose between a few 40 year old American women with bad attitudes about men or a limitless supply of hard bodied 25 year olds who view American men like winning the lottery. It's not only a choice between putting up with garbage or living alone and sleeping around. If you're an employed or even retired American male, the world is your oyster.


All true, but I wouldn't put the blame solely on women. Its false expectations on both sides.

Every human relationship depends on sacrifice i.e. sacrifice to putting up with _crap_ (within reasonable means).

Also, all human relationships are based on needs. You can trade your need for an obedient wife with a hard bodied 25 year old's need for a better materialistic life.

Independent people don't form lasting relationships, because they are not dependent.

BTW, if you read history you will realize that the world has always been fvcked up one way or another, so don't stress about it. Do whats best for you.


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## T&T

Holland said:


> It is a good thing if sooky pants men drop out, we really don't need them in the gene pool.


Agreed, what I see is a bunch of "men" whining about how sh!tty they have it. Poor me...Nobody said life was easy...

What they ought to be doing is getting off their a$$es and grabbing the world by the tail instead of sulking and whining about how women have all the power, blah, blah, blah.

Another thing they complain about is the 50% divorce rate. Okay, don't be a statistic, WORK on staying married.

If someone told me I'd have a 50% chance of winning the lottery I'd be getting a ticket for sure!!

Glass half empty syndrome...

My Son's are doing just fine and many of their friends are too.


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## unbelievable

Forest said:


> Doesn't most everyone around here believe that all men need to read and adapt to the "No More Mr. Nice GuY" or "MMSLP" books that are always mentioned?
> 
> This seems to suggest that men are being pushed to adapt, change, evolve like the article suggests. Men are expected to adapt to be better able to accept women, but not the reverse?
> 
> Then there's the standard advice, to buy these clothes, act this way, or buy a blow up doll.


I don't need to read any books, jump through any flaming hoops, evolve, accept, settle, or tolerate. Outside the borders of the U.S., I'd have to beat the throngs of eager women back with an axe handle.


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## The Cro-Magnon

I tried, I worked my guts out, I jumped through every hoop she asked, I bought the love languages book, I did the 180, MAP, etc, it was like *I* was the one who had to adapt, refine myself, play a constant balancing act of being the perfect man. Whereas she, she was not expected to do anything at all. Lift her game at all.

Even the THREE marriage counsellors we saw all completely enabled her, and said it was all on me to change, and that her terrible treatment of me was something i should "just get over", and that it was unreasonable of me to exect her to meet my needs, and that I had to meet my own needs of happiness.

Well then, what in the FCUK did I get married for if I am essentially alone? 

And I asked myself, just what was I getting out of this? My wife didn't support me, when I said I needed her love she said I had no right to expect anything of her. And she has a cadre of female friends who all think the same thing. I could list their facebook accounts right now.

And yet here I am reading that if i don't "man up" and cop the shtt and total disrespect that women feel free to inflict upon the men that love them, then I am a "sooky man"

Fcuk me, you women need to take a good hard look in the mirror. Because where I am standing post divorce, with the clarity of hindsight, my wife did absolutely NOTHING for me, and didn't even think it was her responsibility to meet any of my most basic needs whatsoever.

It is women that are initiating divorce the majority of times, and for flippant reasons. My ex wife's sister left her husband because "he drank too much" as he would have a few beers after work. Now though, she herself drinks beer every night!

I can see not one single reason why I would ever consider marrying a woman again. They want everything, but give back nothing.

inb4 laughable feminist shaming tactics.

And the thing is, with every passing month, free of the burden of a useless harridan on my back henpecking me and making me feel like an animal (ie wife) my life is becoming AWESOME

The only victims are my kids, but I will not bear the guilt of that, it was their mother who wanted to torpedo their family just because married life was not exciting enough for her, and she wanted exciting "badboys" who gave her tingles.

My kids know the truth, they know I love them, they know I tried, they know their mum now goes out to the pub, gets drunk every week, is getting tattoos, and goes to rock concerts like a 16yo girl. #YesAllWomen EatLovePray YOLO

And I suspect my story is similar to that of many men out there.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

unbelievable said:


> I don't need to read any books, jump through any flaming hoops, evolve, accept, settle, or tolerate. Outside the borders of the U.S., I'd have to beat the throngs of eager women back with an axe handle.


So instead of being a better person to attract women, you want to basically buy a woman who will be obedient and serve you? 

There are plenty of men here having the same kinds of issues with their non-US wives, it's really not that simple.


----------



## Anon Pink

Fascinating and sad how bitter men complain of women being bitter.

Okay men, you're standing up for yourself and stating you're going to go your own way because you're not being respected by women.

Can you come up with a few key points you think women need to change in order to become better relationship material? I'd be interested to know these things. I'll start...

1. Quit with the princess crap! Do you treat your man like a prince? Respect your partner and insist he respect you.


Your turn...


----------



## ChristianGrey

The Cro-Magnon said:


> I tried, I worked my guts out, I jumped through every hoop she asked, I bought the love languages book, I did the 180, MAP, etc, ...


That is exactly where you went wrong.

Promise everything, deliver nothing.


----------



## DoF

unbelievable said:


> I don't need to read any books, jump through any flaming hoops, evolve, accept, settle, or tolerate. Outside the borders of the U.S., I'd have to beat the throngs of eager women back with an axe handle.


You are correct, unfortunately you are failing to realize that the women you would be beating off you are not the women you would want to begin with.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

Since leaving her:
Travelled Australia
Furthered my career, making a killing now
Taken up photography, guitar and drums again
Go to gym everyday, looking great
Made a heap of new friends
Have no need to drink alcohol now her pressure on me is gone
Go spearfishing whenever I want
Have my own house, half paid off, set up to be the ultimate man cave, my kids love it.
Going to thailand with friends soon, and then Mexico in 3 months.
Am beating women off with a stick.

And what is she doing with the freedom from horrible old "sooky man" me, the husband who loved her completely and was devoted to his family? Buying beer by the slab, has taken up smoking cigarettes, is getting tattoos, dumps the kids with her parents to go out clubbing with her group of single mother friends to get plastered and pick up men for ONS's, and is obsessed with rock bands like Foo Fighters and Queens of the Stone Age like a teenage girl.

So, remind me again why I would want to be legally attached to a total loser like that?


----------



## JCD

Anon Pink said:


> Fascinating and sad how bitter men complain of women being bitter.
> 
> Okay men, you're standing up for yourself and stating you're going to go your own way because you're not being respected by women.
> 
> Can you come up with a few key points you think women need to change in order to become better relationship material? I'd be interested to know these things. I'll start...
> 
> 1. Quit with the princess crap! Do you treat your man like a prince? Respect your partner and insist he respect you.
> 
> 
> Your turn...


Hmm.

Your last bit is the problem. Too many people (both genders) view 'insist s/he respect you' as 'treat me better than I treat you' as their definition of respect.

2) Every day, think of what your spouse has sacrificed by becoming your bride. Is she working? She could have had a career...but she didn't...for you! Your job dragged you to bumfvck Iowa? Did she go? Left her whole life behind...for you!

Appreciate the sacrifices she's made and suddenly, it isn't such a bitter pill to put up with her ass of a brother for 5 hours on Thanksgiving.

Just saying!

Edited to add: Sorry! I thought you wanted how a guy should appreciate his spouse more, not more suggestions on how to be a better female mate.


----------



## RClawson

EleGirl said:


> That's funny. Someone forgot to tell this to my son, daughter and all their friends... There is a lot of very normal dating and even marriages going on.
> 
> Oh well. The article is written to attract people to the website. I guess it worked.


Ele,

You are too smart to be this simplistic. The fact is this trend took hold in Japan well over a decade ago. The results, if they continue, will decimate their society. Young men there are giving up not only on marriage but on sex. The birth rate there has plummeted.


----------



## Forest

Anon Pink said:


> Fascinating and sad how bitter men complain of women being bitter.
> 
> Okay men, you're standing up for yourself and stating you're going to go your own way because you're not being respected by women.
> 
> Can you come up with a few key points you think women need to change in order to become better relationship material? I'd be interested to know these things. I'll start...
> 
> 1. Quit with the princess crap! Do you treat your man like a prince? Respect your partner and insist he respect you.
> 
> 
> Your turn...


OK: (for those to whom it applies)
Analyze this ritual, and correct where needed:
Get up in the morning: "Don't talk to me, I'm in a hurry"
At work, from sleazy coworker: "You look great" her response: "wish my husband felt that way"
Come home: "Don't talk to me, I'm hungry"
After dinner: "Shut up, I'm tired"

Laying in bed, thinking: "He never gives me attention and compliments."

Kinda the standard refrain at the CWI forum, anyway.


----------



## Anon Pink

Forest said:


> OK: (for those to whom it applies)
> Analyze this ritual, and correct where needed:
> Get up in the morning: "Don't talk to me, I'm in a hurry"
> At work, from sleazy coworker: "You look great" her response: "wish my husband felt that way"
> Come home: "Don't talk to me, I'm hungry"
> After dinner: "Shut up, I'm tired"
> 
> Laying in bed, thinking: "He never gives me attention and compliments."
> 
> Kinda the standard refrain at the CWI forum, anyway.


Okay Forest, so your contribution to the list of things a woman needs to pay attention to in order to be good relationship partner is that.... 

She should recognize and appreciate his attempts to make her feel loved.

So here is the list so far:


1. Quit with the princess crap! Do you treat your man like a prince? Respect your partner and insist he respect you.

2) Every day, think of what your spouse has sacrificed by becoming your bride. Is she working? She could have had a career...but she didn't...for you! Your job dragged you to bumfvck Iowa? Did she go? Left her whole life behind...for you!

3. Recognize and appreciate his attempts to make her feel loved.


----------



## JCD

RClawson said:


> Ele,
> 
> You are too smart to be this simplistic. The fact is this trend took hold in Japan well over a decade ago. The results, if they continue, will decimate their society. Young men there are giving up not only on marriage but on sex. The birth rate there has plummeted.


Um...whoa!

I hear a different story. Young women have money. They can get jobs for the first time in their lives.

Except now, the culture still demands that when the girl gets married, she gets to essentially be the slave to her mother in law, treat her husband like gold, even if he cheats on her (traditionally, the bills for his sing song girls went to the wife...who PAID)...and Hiromi gets to compare THAT life to an American girl...and she says 'fvck this noise!'

Now, maybe there is something on the other side. But that is part of what I heard was going on there.


----------



## ChristianGrey

Anon Pink said:


> Can you come up with a few key points you think women need to change in order to become better relationship material? I'd be interested to know these things. I'll start...
> 
> 1. Quit with the princess crap! Do you treat your man like a prince? Respect your partner and insist he respect you.
> 
> 
> Your turn...


If things were _perfect_, they would be so boring.

There is no charm in being predictable like a clockwork.


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> :rofl: Do you have any idea how much those robots will *cost*?
> 
> If they act exactly like humans, then they will act exactly like women... so you will not like them either.


Financially less then divorce for many . Emotionally it could save you everything


----------



## JCD

Anon Pink said:


> Okay Forest, so your contribution to the list of things a woman needs to pay attention to in order to be good relationship partner is that....
> 
> She should recognize and appreciate his attempts to make her feel loved.
> 
> So here is the list so far:
> 
> 
> 1. Quit with the princess crap! Do you treat your man like a prince? Respect your partner and insist he respect you.
> 
> 2) Every day, think of what your spouse has sacrificed by becoming your bride. Is she working? She could have had a career...but she didn't...for you! Your job dragged you to bumfvck Iowa? Did she go? Left her whole life behind...for you!
> 
> 3. Recognize and appreciate his attempts to make her feel loved.


Sorry.

Let me do this right:

4) Women, when your husband says something that you think is evil, stupid, or specifically designed to make you want to put rat poison in his Cheerios, take a breath and say 'why did you do X?' instead of just stewing in your juices.

Because 9 times out of 10, while he may STILL have reached an conclusion that you disagree with, how he got to that point and the reasons he made those choices probably had some validity, even if they were not fully informed. By informing him of the things he misunderstood, you can have a better relationship.


----------



## Wolf1974

SimplyAmorous said:


> Sadly this is the fall out..commitmentless to marriage , stability takes the biggest hit on our kids..and this is now "their normal".. I DO NOT see better things for our future generations...
> 
> The father factor: What happens when dad is nowhere to be found?
> 
> 
> 
> I think these are real problems...and I also feel, as women, *we need to start listening to the Men who are opting out*...instead of insulting them...if they see very little incentive to commit to a woman these days... this is not a good trend for society, for our culture , or for our children...I DO hope my daughter finds a good man , settles down , raises a family ,a husband by her side....
> 
> I have to agree with Wolf though, it's more those holding onto some form of religious belief..such men are more likely to hold to Traditional anything these days...against the naysayers...I really don't see that anyone else much cares, only sees it as *an option*...and not one to even aspire to... they invite the changes with open arms.
> 
> This seems to be written by a feminist...and I agree with it !
> 
> Why Men Do Not Want to Marry - The Feminine Woman — Femininity - Dating & Relationship Advice for Women - The Feminine Woman


I agree but most women don't want to hear the reasons why we are opting out. They don't seem to care so it just is what it is. Most my friends who are divorced are like me, upset they were screwed over emotionally or financially and now have a very jaded view of marriage and he'll even relationships. We are all raising kids that are now going to see these things through the lens of a broken home. Much like my x wife did. We saw divorce very different because that's what she saw growing up. now my kids will see her world instead of mine which was two emotionally healthy adults in a realtionship. The new norm is this one.


----------



## Married but Happy

Well, the whole "men giving up on marriage" idea may be false, at least for second marriages. Or it may be that the numbers would be less than 30% if marriage weren't skewed:



> ... the desire to remarry is also unequal across genders. When Pew asked divorced and widowed people if they would like to remarry, only 30 percent of men said no, compared to 54 percent of women


When men remarry, they go way younger. Women pick someone older.

Or right to the source:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-a-bigger-age-gap-than-the-first-time-around/


----------



## unbelievable

DoF said:


> You are correct, unfortunately you are failing to realize that the women you would be beating off you are not the women you would want to begin with.


Because American women have brought me such boundless joy? My father has been married to a Peruvian woman about 30 years and he's happier than a hog in slop. She treats him extremely well and he's not the easiest guy to deal with.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Forest said:


> Doesn't most everyone around here believe that all men need to read and adapt to the "No More Mr. Nice GuY" or "MMSLP" books that are always mentioned?
> 
> This seems to suggest that men are being pushed to adapt, change, evolve like the article suggests. *Men are expected to adapt to be better able to accept women, but not the reverse?*
> 
> Then there's the standard advice, to buy these clothes, act this way, or buy a blow up doll.


I took the time to lay out a thread on what *I feel* , we as women CAN DO / work on to better our relationships with our men...bringing more harmony to the sexes...

Though some feel lists are too confining...(not sure how else one gets a point across -if not laying out some idea, tidbits)...just didn't seem well received here at TAM....


----------



## always_alone

The Cro-Magnon said:


> Since leaving her:
> Travelled Australia
> Furthered my career, making a killing now
> Taken up photography, guitar and drums again
> Go to gym everyday, looking great
> Made a heap of new friends
> Have no need to drink alcohol now her pressure on me is gone
> Go spearfishing whenever I want
> Have my own house, half paid off, set up to be the ultimate man cave, my kids love it.
> Going to thailand with friends soon, and then Mexico in 3 months.
> Am beating women off with a stick.
> 
> And what is she doing with the freedom from horrible old "sooky man" me, the husband who loved her completely and was devoted to his family? Buying beer by the slab, has taken up smoking cigarettes, is getting tattoos, dumps the kids with her parents to go out clubbing with her group of single mother friends to get plastered and pick up men for ONS's, and is obsessed with rock bands like Foo Fighters and Queens of the Stone Age like a teenage girl.
> 
> So, remind me again why I would want to be legally attached to a total loser like that?


Interesting how you framed that.

It strikes me that you might also have said that she is out making tons of new friends, beating men off with a stick, turning her life into an awesome time having fun, sowing her wild oats, and catching up onthe good times she couldn't have when tied down.

While you are dumping off the kids, leaving behind a trail of ONS, and desperately trying to reclaim your adventurous youth like a teenage boy. 

Or so it seems from the outside...


----------



## always_alone

unbelievable said:


> Because American women have brought me such boundless joy? My father has been married to a Peruvian woman about 30 years and he's happier than a hog in slop. She treats him extremely well and he's not the easiest guy to deal with.


So why are you hanging around this dump? Get thee a plane ticket. Hordes of young hardbodies are waiting to treat you like a rock star!


----------



## Jetranger

Don't watch 90 Day Fiancee. 

38 year old guy from Iowa(?) with 23 year old hardbody from Brazil. Total ***** even before he flew down to meet her. She complained and found fault constantly the whole time she was up scoping out her potential new life, rude to his parents who she'd just met.

20-something guy from Ohio with 20-something from Philippines. In the car on the way back from the airport, she accuses him of giving her a fake diamond on her engagement ring. Mother, in the car, is mortified.

Granted, reality TV, no drama = no show, but thinking foreign women will all be direct descendants of the Goddess of **** is foolish.


----------



## changedbeliefs

I feel like a lot of threads go this way, people don't truly "debate," they simply steamroll in with their previous opinions, not open to the potentially new idea being presented. This article clearly rang true with several people, only to be trampled by OPINIONS that those people simply weren't being "good enough men" and/or hadn't met "good women." Moreover, they chalked their own success up to the fact that they DID have a "good woman" and/or that they were just more "secure" or of similar quality. This is like when, in response to hearing how some couples don't have kids, parents may say, "well, ya know, some people just aren't ready to be that selfless," which is the fancy way of saying "you're just too selfish."

To deny that there is a current of minimizing the role of the husband/father, and overemphasizing the importance of moms/women, is ludicrous. You can throw a dart and hit an article that implies a SAHM is the most important job in THE WORLD, but find me one that portrays a SAHD as much more than "cute that he can change a diaper and heat up soup." Many people are being very quick to simply dictate that this topic is eithe true or false; how about just a true open-minded discussion of each side?


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

always_alone said:


> Interesting how you framed that.
> 
> It strikes me that you might also have said that she is out making tons of new friends, beating men off with a stick, turning her life into an awesome time having fun, sowing her wild oats, and catching up onthe good times she couldn't have when tied down.
> 
> While you are dumping off the kids, leaving behind a trail of ONS, and desperately trying to reclaim your adventurous youth like a teenage boy.
> 
> Or so it seems from the outside...


I never wanted to leave my family. I never wanted to leave my kids. I pay double child support, yet she still denies me access.

Engaging in normal hobbies that she would not let me pursue whilst married because she said I had to work harder, and man up, and that I was lazy, so that make me a loser trying to reclaim a lost youth. OK. I thought it was just living a normal and productive life. And no I DON'T run around getting pissed having ONS, I merely said women show alot of interest in me. No way am I getting into a relationship again though, what for? What do women even bring to the table? All they do is take.

WHilst her conducting herself like a gutter dwelling *****, spending the child support on jim beam, beer, tattoos, LEAVING THE KIDS with her friends and parents to go out and get black out drunk then sleep with complete scumbag strangers, with her drunk tattooed bottom feeding frankston single mum friends, whilst my kids are going backwards, and my boy can't even hold a knife and fork because she just throws dinner in front of him then sits on her ipad looking on internet dating or ebay dreaming of her next purchase, running around spending hundreds on concert tickets and tattoos while crying poor to me that she can't afford them xmas presents

OK it is nice to know you think out lives are of comparable value, Sir Galahad. Is there any depth she could stoop to that you wouldn't condone? What if she got a job in a brothel? "Oh she's just being an empowered and sexually liberated strong modern womyn" I guess....

SHE wanted to get away from ME, as though I was holding her back. Her husband was the source of ALL her misery. 

Yet now she is free, she is as miserable as ever, and is making a fool of herself by being the drunken town bicycle of frankston.

YesAllWomen!

And my kids have to watch their mother do this. This is the example of what a mother is that my daughter is growing up to see. But according to Sir Galahad above, that's all OK, and I am a child, and she is living a great life meeting awesome people at 2am whilst pissed then sucking them off in their car before dragging herself home to the kids then getting her parents to watch the because she is too hung over.

Awesome, thanks, good to know I'm just being a child, and that her life choices are equally as valid and worthwhile as my own, and that her leaving me and taking the kids means that I am abandoning them, even though I die inside every day I am away from them.

God there are some fcukwits on this site.

Yes, all the above is happening, it is my life, I am living it.

I offered to pay for swimming lessons for my boy, but she said no as she would rather him be unable to tread water to save himself if he fell into deep water than have me spend any more time with him.

#YesAllWomen! And she has support networks, government funding, the media, dckkheads like the idiot above, all telling her what a great human she is to boot.

Fcuk Marriage, modern women are disgusting


----------



## Cletus

EleGirl said:


> Computers and machines have no desire. They can go through the motions but that's about it. A blow up doll is about the same thing.


No, but as the saying goes: "Once you can fake sincerity, the rest is easy".


----------



## Cletus

unbelievable said:


> I don't need to read any books, jump through any flaming hoops, evolve, accept, settle, or tolerate. Outside the borders of the U.S., I'd have to beat the throngs of eager women back with an axe handle.


We got it. You don't like American women. 

So buy that axe and don't let the door hit you on the ass.


----------



## vellocet

SimplyAmorous said:


> I think these are real problems...and I also feel, as women, *we need to start listening to the Men who are opting out*...instead of insulting them...if they see very little incentive to commit to a woman these days... this is not a good trend for society, for our culture , or for our children


Sadly, I am in this group of men that will never commit ever again. Although I am not and never will be a dad "nowhere to be found". I love my kids more than anything and will always be there for them.

I think its the men that have relationship experience that are the ones opting out. And this goes for some women too. Some women have been treated badly and have had enough, though I think women still hold on to that hope that they will find a good one some day. I think men tend to just give up, like myself.

I'll never commit. If I go on some dates, fine, but if I never go on a date the rest of my life, I honestly do not care.


----------



## jld

I don't think always alone was trying to deny or minimize your pain, Cro-Magnon. I think she was just trying to offer a different pov.


----------



## Cletus

Anon Pink said:


> Fascinating and sad how bitter men complain of women being bitter.
> 
> Okay men, you're standing up for yourself and stating you're going to go your own way because you're not being respected by women.
> 
> Can you come up with a few key points you think women need to change in order to become better relationship material? I'd be interested to know these things. I'll start...
> 
> 1. Quit with the princess crap! Do you treat your man like a prince? Respect your partner and insist he respect you.
> 
> 
> Your turn...


Expect, nay demand, equality. But do not demand that men and women be the same.


----------



## always_alone

The Cro-Magnon said:


> I never wanted to leave my family. I never wanted to leave my kids. I pay double child support, yet she still denies me access.
> 
> Engaging in normal hobbies that she would not let me pursue whilst married because she said I had to work harder, and man up, and that I was lazy, so that make me a loser trying to reclaim a lost youth. OK. I thought it was just living a normal and productive life. And no I DON'T run around getting pissed having ONS, I merely said women show alot of interest in me. No way am I getting into a relationship again though, what for? What do women even bring to the table? All they do is take.


Ah, a different frame. Before your life was awesome, your kids loved your man cave, and you were traveling the world beating women off with a stick, having a grand old time.

I'm sorry, didn't realize things were so completely awful for you.



The Cro-Magnon said:


> #YesAllWomen! And she has support networks, government funding, the media, dckkheads like the idiot above, all telling her what a great human she is to boot.
> 
> Fcuk Marriage, modern women are disgusting


This idiot wasn't suggesting anything about her character. Just that that the way you framed your description showed a complete double standard.

And since you described your life without her as so awesome, it occurred to me that maybe you were both better off without each other.

But what it really sounds like now is that not having a meaningful relationship is making you both miserable. And that's very sad.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

changedbeliefs said:


> To deny that there is a current of minimizing the role of the husband/father, and overemphasizing the importance of moms/women, is ludicrous. You can throw a dart and hit an article that implies a SAHM is the most important job in THE WORLD, but find me one that portrays a SAHD as much more than "cute that he can change a diaper and heat up soup." Many people are being very quick to simply dictate that this topic is eithe true or false; how about just a true open-minded discussion of each side?


A month or so ago, on the sunday I get my boy, it was raining so we couldn't do much, so I took him to the movies to see this kids film he wanted to see called Box Trolls.

I could not believe what I was watching, the whole movie was flat out anti-father brainwashing for kids. Fathers are unreliable, will let you down, cannot be trusted, will give you away. Whilst the mothers of the kids in the film feature for about 5 tenths of a second. I got home and had a google to see whether or not I was just imagining things, but sure enough, there are many other people complaining of the same thing, it was really sick, and i am annoyed I paid money to let him watch it. The point being, the is a strident effort to undermine the role and value of the father, and of men in general, at the moment, and the family unit is under attack, and women are encouraged to just do whatever they want, cheat, betray, fcuk & suck their way through a whole town (spreading their oats, as Sir Galahad above put it) 

And surprise surprise, men are making the entirely rational decision that there are basically zero positives being with these modern women, and so are just giving up.

At this point in my life, can a woman here tell me what a woman could do for me? How could a woman make my life better? WHY should I consider another marriage or even relationship with one? How would they sell the deal to me?

But I guess I'm just a sooky man, and a child, and I need to "man up" etc etc


----------



## jld

I don't think right now is the time for another relationship, Cro-Magnon. It's time for healing.


----------



## vellocet

michzz said:


> Giving up is surely an option, but why?


Because the headache, bullsh** and drama that comes with it, for me, is just not worth it.

That's shyte I don't ever need again.


----------



## unbelievable

Cletus said:


> We got it. You don't like American women.
> 
> So buy that axe and don't let the door hit you on the ass.


Thanks for the permission I didn't ask for and certainly don't require. A lame attempt at insulting someone who has arrived at a very obvious conclusion (one shared by a growing number of American men) isn't likely to correct the problem, now is it? 

You're on a marriage forum because you have found the institution to be all you've ever dreamed of and more?


----------



## vellocet

Holland said:


> It is a good thing if sooky pants men drop out, we really don't need them in the gene pool.


I've already propagated my genes.


----------



## Cletus

unbelievable said:


> Thanks for the permission I didn't ask for and certainly don't require. A lame attempt at insulting someone who has arrived at a very obvious conclusion (one shared by a growing number of American men) isn't likely to correct the problem, now is it?


You gaslight a forum, expect some blowback.

As the proud owner of a penis, I don't think I have the power to correct your issue. I know a guy who is on his second mail order Asian bride. He's the laughingstock of our social group.



> You're on a marriage forum because you have found the institution to be all you've ever dreamed of and more?


Would I still be at it after 29 years if I thought a bullet to the brain would be better?


----------



## Anon Pink

Cletus said:


> Expect, nay demand, equality. But do not demand that men and women be the same.


Men and women are not the same, never have been never will be. 

We may want the same things, love, respect, dignity and honor, but how we imagine those things to come about are vastly different.

Some women have been burned badly by men and are angry and bitter. Some men have been burned badly by women and are angry and bitter. 

It is not more man's fault for women's bitterness than it is woman's fault for men. Their pickets are broken. Stop picking losers and crazy b!tches. Boom. Done.


----------



## vellocet

Holland said:


> It is low self esteem. I can see why TBH, women are free to be stronger and more open about what they want.
> The good guys, you know the ones that women do want are becoming more in tune with themselves and women.
> 
> This leaves the poor old sooky man/child left out which will only amplify his (general) shortcomings.


So let me get this straight, as someone who was a good husband(although nobody is perfect), good father, worked hard to provide for my family, never stopped showing my wife affection, only to be cheated on, my kids taken away from me.....and I'm the problem?? Got it.

And just to be clear, the same goes in reverse for women. There are women that suffered the same crap.

There are a lot of women here that bash men. Why? Because they have had enough of the bullsh##. Some of them have, in some ways, "given up" as well.

So if you say men who are no longer interested in commitment, or do not have a positive outlook on relationships because of their experiences, are sooky pants with shortcomings, then you just also attributed that insult to your fellow females here on TAM and everywhere else.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

always_alone said:


> Ah, a different frame. Before your life was awesome, your kids loved your man cave, and you were traveling the world beating women off with a stick, having a grand old time.
> 
> I didn't realize things were so completely awful for you.


Idiot. I'll make this clear to you. 
I was married. I loved my wife. I was HAPPY being a good hard wrking husband. I loved her, and never put another woman above her. Read my earlier threads, she treated me like crap. 

We split, she gets what she wants. House, kids, freedom, single mother pension, child support, AND works cash in hand illegally.

I lose my life, my world, my identity, my family, my kids, I attempted suicide at how bad she beat me down, I did not want it.

WTF was I supposed to do? Stay unhappy to entertain you and her? I accepted she never loved me, and loved some ridiculous ideal of a 6'5 tattooed badboy archetype that was not me. So I moved on, resolved to be the best dad I could be for my kids, and to live my life, to develop personally, to heal. They were my choices.

HER choices were to descend into being a total white trash alcoholic tattooed cigarette smoking bad cliche of the welfare dependant single mum. SHE CHOSE THIS. She isn't out reading, or going to gym, or doing any soul searching, or doing anything at all. Nope, she just wants to pick up "badboys" let them pump a load in her, then drag herself home to roll around in bed hung over.





> This idiot wasn't suggesting anything about her character.


Bullshtt. Yes you did. You said her life decisions were totally valid and of equal or greater value to my own. "Sowing her oats" "Meeting great people"

[quote[Just that that the way you framed your description showed a complete double standard.[/quote]
You are full of shtt. SHE got what SHE wanted, her excitement and dreams of a tatted up badboy boyfriend were more important than her family so she torpedoed it. My response was to try to recover and move on with integrity and try to live a fulfilling life now that she didn't want me as her husband,

Her response was just to descend into an revel being a *****.



> And since you described your life without her as so awesome, it occurred to me that maybe you were both better off without each other.


Read my threads, to be a father, and have a family, it was everything to me, her happiness was everything to me, I spent thousands in counselling, I tried everything to save it, does that sound like the actions of someone who was not happy in his role? And she never lifted a finger. And all because I was not an exciting badboy 6'4 tatted thug like her 1st boyfriend who she admitted she still loved the whole time.

Life dealt me lemons, so I tried to make lemonade. You sound pissed off I have dared to try to make myself happy and start moving on and being happy with my kids. 



> But what it really sounds like now is that not having a meaningful relationship is making you both miserable. And that's very sad.


Wrong again, what i've learned with the benefit of hindsight and distance, is that I DON'T NEED her, I DON'T NEED a marriage or relationship, that women GIVE NOTHING AND ONLY TAKE. 

What could a women give to me now other than potential pain?

It's a rhetorical question so don't bother answering, you're more concerned with covering your own tracks than anything else anyway.


----------



## Cletus

Anon Pink said:


> Men and women are not the same, never have been never will be.


My favorite Robin Williams' joke: "Put a woman in the White House and war would be a thing of the past. However, there would be very intense negotiations every 28 days".



> It is not more man's fault for women's bitterness than it is woman's fault for men. Their pickets are broken. Stop picking losers and crazy b!tches. Boom. Done.


It's OK to be bitter, for a while. Sometimes you just don't see the crazy coming, and when someone goes out of his or her way to make you nuts, bitter is a reasonable reaction. For a while. 

It just doesn't generalize well to others.


----------



## Anon Pink

The Cro-Magnon said:


> At this point in my life, can a woman here tell me what a woman could do for me? How could a woman make my life better? WHY should I consider another marriage or even relationship with one? How would they sell the deal to me?
> 
> But I guess I'm just a sooky man, and a child, and I need to "man up" etc etc



Your ex wife sounds like a horrible person.

Doesn't sound like you need a woman at all. Not sure why your should bother. 

Not sure what I can do about your sitch. I am a woman and you seem to have lumped all of us into one basket based on your basket case of an ex. So on behalf of all women, cause I am the official spokeswoman and all, we're sorry you were assigned the worst of the bunch. We sincerely apologize for her defectiveness and we will gladly take her back to the factory for a complete overhaul.


----------



## unbelievable

"Would I still be at it after 29 years if I thought a bullet to the brain would be better?"

Perhaps the most illogical defense of marriage ever written. Slavery existed over here for nearly 250 years and every slave had the option of suicide. That most didn't hang themselves is not an indication that their condition was acceptable.


----------



## vellocet

Wolf1974 said:


> I agree but most women don't want to hear the reasons why we are opting out.


I'm "seeing" someone right now. Friends with benefits arrangement. She also has opted out of the committed relationship life.

Her reason is the same as mine, just tired of the bulls**. Neither of us look unfavorably on the opposite sex, we just aren't interested in the committed life any longer.


----------



## jld

I hope someday love might bloom there, vellocet. Or at least comfort and understanding.


----------



## ConanHub

While I will agree that there are definite themes of unimportant or incompetent, stupid, unattractive and pathetic men/fathers/husbands being portrayed in the media and echoed throughout the halls of political correctness which has seeped into every pore of our society, I believe people are the same as they have always been.

There are real men here that the system has royally screwed over in favor of gutter tramps that care more for their next thrill and who is next in line to park in their crotch than for their own children.

I take nothing away from and do not disrespect their pain.

I think men just need to be picky and taught it early in life.

Not to settle or be led into a relationship by their willies. Women still want men and are willing to bend over backwards for a standard, run of the mill, primordial man.

The key is to have expectations and really wait until you have found a woman that truly fits the bill. Then when you have her, don't stop expecting and become a Mr. Nice guy. I am not saying there is an exact science to this and anyone can get burned but there are still a lot of women that will lift up their skirts and come running for a real/ un modern man. You just have to have patients and not settle for anything less.

A few of my friends are divorced, very macho men's men. They are more modern than me. They make fun of me as being one of the girls because I can carry on an interesting conversation with women. There GFs and wives look forward to my company because I talk like a man who is interested in women.

I follow principals that are thousands of years old and are hardly new or modern. I am closer to a "caveman" than any of the men who call me girly. I can also wipe the floor with all of them at once for a morning workout.

I think current culture has lost something. Yes, maybe some good feminine qualities are seemingly scorned and are becoming harder to find but the same can definitely be said for good masculine qualities.

Women don't want some oversensitive wiener or a insensitive macho brute. Both are somewhat modern versions of men. 

I am not blaming any man who was the victim of a poisonous shrew but understand that there is a woman that got just as screwed as you from a POS bastard.

This is going to come off politically incorrect but I have seen women step up and become classical feminine women when presented with classically masculine men.

I pay no attention or am offended in the least about absolute equality of the sexes. I don't believe in it nor do I act like it. I could also have a willing harem if it was legal because of my attitude. Women find it very attractive!

I did not win the genetic lottery and look like Brad Pitt. The women are attracted to what is beating in my chest and what is moving behind my eyes. Heart and mind. Classically masculine men attract women and actually makes it easier for them to be classical women.

Old school men hold their women responsible but don't blame. They don't treat women like men because they aren't. They listen to female input because it is many times valuable and from a perspective they can't see. They stand up for their woman and stand up to them when needed. They don't take shyt from their women and don't try to dish it back, but keep their calm more often than not with their mates. They don't always assume they are right and always take responsibility when they are wrong. They even take the blows the world has for their wives and kids.

I know these things are in the hearts of many good men who have been burned by an evil b!tch but we need to live like this fearlessly. It is easier for others to be strong when around one who already is.

It is also ok to expect the respect and devotion from your wives that you are walking through fire for and slaying dragons.

As has been many times stated, women do not like nice guy push overs but men who won't put up with any little sh!tty thing they do or crappy attitude they come up with.

None of the above is even in reference to strictly the financial but a man better be able to take care of his families needs no matter how much his wife makes.

I probably just wasted my electronic breath but I walk the walk with good results and have brought some "modern" men back closer to their primal roots and it has saved marriages and ignited passion in their women.

No matter what bullshyt theory is being accepted in the world today, women are still women and respond to solid masculinity.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

Anon Pink said:


> Your ex wife sounds like a horrible person.


She was just a peurile child, with some really deep seated sexual problems, and was so unintelligent and simple that her "Eye needz duh biggun tattoo sooper tallz badboy wif massive penis for my vagina" programming just overrode everything else.

If only you knew the half of it.

I tried everything. And just wasn't man enough. She loved her first boyfriend who used to beat her and told her she was ugly and stank.



> Doesn't sound like you need a woman at all. Not sure why your should bother.


Was waiting for this, the "you are a lone gunman, like a creep, just scuttle off back to your basement, relationships are great for normal people, not units like you"

Nope, I've found I actually am a social person, I enjoy time with friends I wasn't allowed to see for 12 years, I have no problems talking to new women, it is just that, WHAT can they do for me? Go on, tell me? What can a woman do for ANY normal man who has his life together like me? I'm struggling to see anything other than a bit of company every now and then, and even then you end up paying for it.



> Not sure what I can do about your sitch. I am a woman and you seem to have lumped all of us into one basket based on your basket case of an ex. So on behalf of all women, cause I am the official spokeswoman and all, we're sorry you were assigned the worst of the bunch. We sincerely apologize for her defectiveness and we will gladly take her back to the factory for a complete overhaul.


Yep, she is a broken unit, but I think that much of her brokenness comes from a decade of media/cultural/societal enablement, that life is there for women to have EVERYTHING they want, like little girls in a toy store, that they don't have to give anything back or even lift a finger.

If modern women all want to be floating members in a harem of some badboy whilst scores of decent men are single behind the scenes, then that is an ugly future, and that will rest SOLELY on the peurile and immature expectations of the disgusting modern "sex in duh city" woman

But I will be happy letting my mind flow into every crevice of the physical world, and enjoying it to the full, and being the best dad I can. My ex can guzzle as much cum as she likes. And we'll see which of the two of us lives more decent & personally fulfilling lives.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> I hope someday love might bloom there, vellocet. Or at least comfort and understanding.


Who knows, but right now I'm not interested, and it would have to pretty much land in my lap because I'm not in the market for it.

Right now I am loving being able to do what I want, when I want, do not have to answer to anyone, and do not have to worry about being cheated on, because afterall, I'm less than a man with shortcomings


----------



## jld

Sometimes not looking for love is the very best way to get it.


----------



## Wolf1974

vellocet said:


> I'm "seeing" someone right now. Friends with benefits arrangement. She also has opted out of the committed relationship life.
> 
> Her reason is the same as mine, just tired of the bulls**. Neither of us look unfavorably on the opposite sex, we just aren't interested in the committed life any longer.


I tried that whole FWB thing and was too difficult for me. I hope that remains on track for you :smthumbup:


----------



## Married but Happy

I am very skeptical about marriage after my first experience and much observation of other marriages, but I remarried. The key for me was thoroughly knowing my partner and believing in her integrity - that took time and experience for us both. It had been proven time and again before we married, and has been ever since. We have always had each other's best interests at heart, and meet each other's wants and needs in the ways the other appreciates.


----------



## Wolf1974

Married but Happy said:


> I am very skeptical about marriage after my first experience and much observation of other marriages, but I remarried. The key for me was thoroughly knowing my partner and believing in her integrity - that took time and experience for us both. It had been proven time and again before we married, and has been ever since. We have always had each other's best interests at heart, and meet each other's wants and needs in the ways the other appreciates.


Can't imagine the courage it takes to set yourself out there like that again. Glad this marriage is more of what you wanted.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I don't get this pursuit thing. Just be. Be near other people who like and do the same things you do. Therein lies the least stupid gender crap and a higher likelihood of meeting someone compatible.


----------



## Deejo

ConanHub said:


> No matter what bullshyt theory is being accepted in the world today, women are still women and respond to solid masculinity.


Unless they distinctly and adamantly protest otherwise. Comes back to what I said earlier about 'roles'.

Take an aggregate of qualities:
Honesty, integrity, honor, strength of character, commitment, physically and sexually competent, emotionally present, comfortable in own skin, lives by a code, can fix things, build things, break things, lift things.

All of those qualities I'm comfortable putting in the bucket of masculinity. 

But often times, the fairer sex wants to parse the bucket, because somehow, somewhere along the line 'masculine' has been given an ambivalent connotation at best, or a negative one at worst.


----------



## norajane

Deejo said:


> Unless they distinctly and adamantly protest otherwise. Comes back to what I said earlier about 'roles'.
> 
> Take an aggregate of qualities:
> Honesty, integrity, honor, strength of character, commitment, physically and sexually competent, emotionally present, comfortable in own skin, lives by a code, can fix things, build things, break things, lift things.
> 
> All of those qualities I'm comfortable putting in the bucket of masculinity.
> 
> But often times, the fairer sex wants to parse the bucket, because somehow, somewhere along the line 'masculine' has been given an ambivalent connotation at best, or a negative one at worst.


Of course we parse it.



> Honesty, integrity, honor, strength of character, commitment, physically and sexually competent, emotionally present, comfortable in own skin, lives by a code, can fix things, build things, break things, lift things.


This can and does describe feminine women, too. Or do you believe women aren't those things?


----------



## Forest

norajane said:


> This can and does describe feminine women, too. Or do you believe women aren't those things?


Why did my eyes focus right on "break things" in that list?


----------



## vellocet

Wolf1974 said:


> I tried that whole FWB thing and was too difficult for me. I hope that remains on track for you :smthumbup:


Well, its not like we see each other alot. Just when the mood strikes one of us and we want to go hang out.


----------



## Anon Pink

The Cro-Magnon said:


> She was just a peurile child, with some really deep seated sexual problems, and was so unintelligent and simple that her "Eye needz duh biggun tattoo sooper tallz badboy wif massive penis for my vagina" programming just overrode everything else.
> 
> If only you knew the half of it.
> 
> I tried everything. And just wasn't man enough. She loved her first boyfriend who used to beat her and told her she was ugly and stank.


She sounds like my ex psycho-b!tch SIL, only she though she was trading up when she dumped my brother for the doctor, who then promptly dumped her scrawny ass for some other woman with less baggage. 

Believe me, I know the kind of woman your ex was and there wasn't a damn thing you could have done better or differently except leave earlier!

My SIL accused me of controlling my brother. I laughed my ass off cause if I had had ANY influence over him he never would have married her in the first place!




> Was waiting for this, the "you are a lone gunman, like a creep, just scuttle off back to your basement, relationships are great for normal people, not units like you"
> 
> Nope, I've found I actually am a social person, I enjoy time with friends I wasn't allowed to see for 12 years, I have no problems talking to new women, it is just that, WHAT can they do for me? Go on, tell me? What can a woman do for ANY normal man who has his life together like me? I'm struggling to see anything other than a bit of company every now and then, and even then you end up paying for it.


Hold the phone there bud. I didn't say anything about you being a loner. I meant what I said which was your life is very happy so why would you seek to be married again? Your picker need tweaking so I don't suggest you go a picking until it's been tweaked! 





> Yep, she is a broken unit, but I think that much of her brokenness comes from a decade of media/cultural/societal enablement, that life is there for women to have EVERYTHING they want, like little girls in a toy store, that they don't have to give anything back or even lift a finger.
> 
> If modern women all want to be floating members in a harem of some badboy whilst scores of decent men are single behind the scenes, then that is an ugly future, and that will rest SOLELY on the peurile and immature expectations of the disgusting modern "sex in duh city" woman


Now it's this kind of generalization that kind of angers me. I am a modern woman and yet I'm still married to the same man for the last 29 years. I am a feminist and I insist on equality but not on same-ness because I'm not a man and my husband is not a woman. Together we complete each other and fill in the blanks.

Your angry right now. Don't blame women, don't blame society. Blame your ex wife and tweak your picker so next time the pretty face doesn't blind you to what's underneath.



> But I will be happy letting my mind flow into every crevice of the physical world, and enjoying it to the full, and being the best dad I can. My ex can guzzle as much cum as she likes. And we'll see which of the two of us lives more decent & personally fulfilling lives.


Clearly, the more decent person is you! My ex psycho b!tch SIL left town after my brother died. Most people ended up turning their backs on her because her true colors were no longer hidden by the protection of my brother and our family. She is getting married again, I pray for her fiancé and am very glad that he has no children at home because that would be a real tragedy!


----------



## unbelievable

Marriage is a wonderful institution for those who need to be institutionalized


----------



## NobodySpecial

Deejo said:


> Unless they distinctly and adamantly protest otherwise. Comes back to what I said earlier about 'roles'.
> 
> Take an aggregate of qualities:
> Honesty, integrity, honor, strength of character, commitment, physically and sexually competent, emotionally present, comfortable in own skin, lives by a code, can fix things, build things, break things, lift things.
> 
> All of those qualities I'm comfortable putting in the bucket of masculinity.
> 
> But often times, the fairer sex wants to parse the bucket, because somehow, somewhere along the line 'masculine' has been given an ambivalent connotation at best, or a negative one at worst.


I just don't see masculinity the way you do. I think masculinity as hot. But my list of masculine traits look nothing like yours.


----------



## naiveonedave

NobodySpecial said:


> I just don't see masculinity the way you do. I think masculinity as hot. But my list of masculine traits look nothing like yours.


Just curious what would be on your list, if you are willing to share.


----------



## NobodySpecial

naiveonedave said:


> Just curious what would be on your list, if you are willing to share.


A certain smell. Different shape and posture. Honestly? A tendency toward a crasser sort of sense of humor. More aggressive humor. At work I do see men more likely to be aggressively direct rather than quietly direct or using more of the convincing skills. (For the the record, that is why I see more successful men in individual contributor roles vs women in management roles, as unintuitive as it is. I think this would be more and more prevalent as the glass ceiling continues to crack.)

For me it has a lot less to do with roles that are placed on us by parents, society or whatever. I chose to dump those roles because I did not fit into them. For me, masculinity and its appeal is more in the physical realm with the exception that I tend to find male humor less likely to have a big @ss stick and thus, funnier.


----------



## NobodySpecial

For parents of boys who are worried about the girlification of society, good book

http://www.amazon.com/The-Wonder-Boys-Michael-Gurian/dp/B001BC8DZK


----------



## vellocet

NobodySpecial said:


> For parents of boys who are worried about the girlification of society, good book
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/The-Wonder-Boys-Michael-Gurian/dp/B001BC8DZK


Not having all the time in the world to read a book, could you summarize it in a nutshell?


----------



## naiveonedave

NobodySpecial said:


> A certain smell. Different shape and posture. Honestly? A tendency toward a crasser sort of sense of humor. More aggressive humor. At work I do see men more likely to be aggressively direct rather than quietly direct or using more of the convincing skills. (For the the record, that is why I see more successful men in individual contributor roles vs women in management roles, as unintuitive as it is. I think this would be more and more prevalent as the glass ceiling continues to crack.)
> 
> For me it has a lot less to do with roles that are placed on us by parents, society or whatever. I chose to dump those roles because I did not fit into them. For me, masculinity and its appeal is more in the physical realm with the exception that I tend to find male humor less likely to have a big @ss stick and thus, funnier.


thanks for posting. I guess i don't see most of those as qualities, but facts (other than being direct). Semantics, I guess.

BTW - I think some people need direct bosses others need mothering types. I really don't think it is that easy to just say on average women make better supervisors. The lack of being direct can be a very negative attribute in a boss.


----------



## NobodySpecial

vellocet said:


> Not having all the time in the world to read a book, could you summarize it in a nutshell?


Not really. He wrote a whole book. But the point is that boys are good as they are. Understanding what they are is good. Aggression needn't mean violent, for instance, and isn't bad on its own.


----------



## Deejo

norajane said:


> This can and does describe feminine women, too. Or do you believe women aren't those things?


Which is exactly my point.

Yes I do believe women are these things as well ... which is exactly WHY the term masculine gets parsed.

They present differently. And I believe you know exactly what I mean ... yet feel compelled to challenge it.

Which is also why I find it more and more challenging to actually find middle ground on gender issues and roles.

I think we're move to the middle, and then someone wants to move it a little more.

How would you prefer to define masculine?


----------



## Deejo

NobodySpecial said:


> I just don't see masculinity the way you do. I think masculinity as hot. But my list of masculine traits look nothing like yours.


I'm fine with that.

Masculinity can be functional or sexual.

John Wayne was masculine. Do you find him hot?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Deejo said:


> I'm fine with that.
> 
> Masculinity can be functional or sexual.
> 
> John Wayne was masculine. Do you find him hot?


John Wayne was an actor. I cannot say if he was masculine or not. I was a child when he was in movies. I cannot comment on him being hot.


----------



## NobodySpecial

naiveonedave said:


> thanks for posting. I guess i don't see most of those as qualities, but facts (other than being direct). Semantics, I guess.
> 
> BTW - I think some people need direct bosses others need mothering types. I really don't think it is that easy to just say on average women make better supervisors. The lack of being direct can be a very negative attribute in a boss.


Yah I guess that's it. Masculinity is a fact. Let me add. Confidence is masculine and hot. Not a set of behaviors that LOOK confident. But real confidence in himself as a person. Also having boundaries and holding them. Where he chooses to put his boundaries might be the difference between that one I say, Wow, he is a keeper and Man, what was I thinking. But boundaries are masculine.

For the record, I did not say mothering. I said quietly direct. With guidance. Which I can see is not very clear having re-read it. Guiding people to their own best choices. Motivation versus assertion that thou shalt be like this. As a mother, I am WAY more direct than with the people I am responsible for.


----------



## NobodySpecial

On John Wayne. He was way hotter in the Quiet Man than in any of his westerns. Except maybe True Grit which might come a close second.


----------



## norajane

Deejo said:


> Which is exactly my point.
> 
> Yes I do believe women are these things as well ... which is exactly WHY the term masculine gets parsed.
> 
> They present differently. And I believe you know exactly what I mean ... yet feel compelled to challenge it.
> 
> Which is also why I find it more and more challenging to actually find middle ground on gender issues and roles.
> 
> I think we're move to the middle, and then someone wants to move it a little more.
> 
> How would you prefer to define masculine?


I don't understand how qualities like honesty can be defined as masculine or feminine. I don't think they belong in the masculine or feminine buckets, but the "decent human being" bucket.

And no, I don't see how honesty presents differently in men and women.

I don't know how I would define masculine or feminine, but it's not by any of the character traits on your list.


----------



## Deejo

NobodySpecial said:


> John Wayne was an actor. I cannot say if he was masculine or not. I was a child when he was in movies. I cannot comment on him being hot.


From a male perspective, actor or no, what he represented were masculine traits. I like to think we would be hard pressed to find anyone that would define him as feminine.

Daniel Craig, George Clooney, Liam Neeson, or for the younger crowd, Leonardo DiCaprio, Chris Hemsworth, Chris Evans, Ryan Gosling.

Masculine.

Michael Cera, Jon Cryer, Jesse Eisenberg, Seth Rogen, any of the dudes from Big Bang, et al. ... not masculine.

Ironically, a good number in the non-masculine list also have a tendency to portray men-children in the movies.

And then there is of course this, which clearly outlines that none of what we think is clear, in fact is ...

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/40/14388.full.pdf

If women live in areas where safety, mortality or survivability are questionable ... guess which kind of men they prefer?

For cushy western first world problem culture where we get to discuss these high-falootin' issues on message boards, they seem to prefer a different look.

Me?

I'll define masculine for myself, thanks very much. And at this point, it has nothing to do with what woman I attract as much as it does how I choose to conduct myself as a man. 
I see this as reasonable rather than adversarial.


----------



## Deejo

norajane said:


> I don't know how I would define masculine or feminine, but it's not by any of the character traits on your list.


You don't know what it is. But you know what it isn't. And it isn't anything on my list?

Well, that's convenient. 

I'm not challenging you. I understand what you are saying. I've said it before.

We generally seem to intrinsically recognize what is masculine or feminine, but when we try to wrap words around it, it muddies the water.


----------



## Cletus

Deejo said:


> From a male perspective, actor or no, what he represented were masculine traits. I like to think we would be hard pressed to find anyone that would define him as feminine.


To be fair, the man did have to overcome his birth name.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Deejo said:


> From a male perspective, actor or no, what he represented were masculine traits. I like to think we would be hard pressed to find anyone that would define him as feminine.
> 
> Daniel Craig, George Clooney, Liam Neeson, or for the younger crowd, Leonardo DiCaprio, Chris Hemsworth, Chris Evans, Ryan Gosling.


Ok, I was with you until Leonardo DiCaprio. 




> Me?
> 
> I'll define masculine for myself, thanks very much.


I think that's great!



> And at this point, it has nothing to do with what woman I attract as much as it does how I choose to conduct myself as a man.


I think that is even better.



> I see this as reasonable rather than adversarial.


I see that as awesome.


----------



## Deejo

In the same way, I see these young guys that have effectively 'opted out' all of the time. They are emotionally stunted. Wouldn't know what the hell to do with a woman they couldn't 'click' on. They can set up a raid array but can't fix a clogged sink. They can recite movie quotes, sports or gaming stats, but don't know how to buy insurance, do a tax form or how the stock market works.

Yet, someone writes about it, and the ladies blow raspberries.

I'm not saying 'poor them'. I don't even feel compelled to defend them. But ... I do believe that the trend will continue to grow.

Whether or not it's because they are afraid of marriage and women I could care less ... but to deny it isn't a trend that many boys are not terribly anxious to become accomplished, men, husbands and fathers, is being more than a little cavalier.


----------



## Deejo

Cletus said:


> To be fair, the man did have to overcome his birth name.


May have been his sole motivation.


----------



## Deejo

NobodySpecial said:


> Ok, I was with you until Leonardo DiCaprio.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's great!
> 
> 
> 
> I think that is even better.
> 
> 
> 
> I see that as awesome.



He isn't on my list either, but he came up as masculine in a Google search.

I still like your style. Stand behind what you believe, but always willing to take another look at a different perspective.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Deejo said:


> He isn't on my list either, but he came up as masculine in a Google search.


I think I need to go tell Google how wrong it is. 



> I still like your style. Stand behind what you believe, but always willing to take another look at a different perspective.


Me? I am just another obnoxious internet b!tch.


----------



## NobodySpecial

^^ I see your last post as what I mean by masculine. In part.


----------



## Deejo

NobodySpecial said:


> ^^ I see your last post as what I mean by masculine. In part.


Not for nuthin', but I get sh!t all of the time from my friends for being attracted to 'masculine' women.

I developed tremendous admiration (crush) for Caity Lotz after watching this movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcGXa-pQT2Q

She plays a fantastic mix of feminine, vulnerable and compassionate, along with absolute kick ass strength and physicality. Movie is on Netflix for anyone interested.

If this is the future of sex robots, sign me the hell up.


----------



## michzz

in a Darwinian fashion, all those people opting for robots will be pruned out of the gene pool.

just sayin'


----------



## vellocet

michzz said:


> in a Darwinian fashion, all those people opting for robots will be pruned out of the gene pool.
> 
> just sayin'


According to Hawking, everyone will

Elon Musk, Stephen Hawking and fearing artificial intelligence—Commentary.


----------



## Deejo

michzz said:


> in a Darwinian fashion, all those people opting for robots will be pruned out of the gene pool.
> 
> just sayin'


Watch that movie and it's the robots that will be doing the pruning.

I like wimminz. I like the way they talk, the way they smell, the way they express themselves, and the way they make me feel.

You know you're alive when you invite someone else into your life, for better or worse. Just need to know when to put an expiration date on 'worse'.

If men want to opt out for fear of being hurt by, or taken for a ride by women ... then I'm happy to be part of that 20% that 80% of the ladies go for ... knowing they don't agree with, or like that little gem either.


----------



## ocotillo

Deejo said:


> If women live in areas where safety, mortality or survivability are questionable ... guess which kind of men they prefer?



Using actors to illustrate this point is interesting because they are an especially good example of the twilight zone that exists between perception and reality. 

John Wayne often played a deadly gunfighter. The reality was he was slower and clumsier with a pistol than my grandmother. (Literally) In contrast, there was a short, little pot bellied balding man whose life overlapped John Wayne named Ed McGivern. He could draw a real pistol; put all six rounds through a playing card at fifteen feet and holster it again in 3/10ths of one second. That's so fast that people today often want to argue about it, but it was caught on film more than once. 

Similarly, there was a character in the series Game of Thrones named Kahl Drogo, played by actor Jason Momoa. The Drogo character was the leader of a tribe of horseman. Momoa is a big boy and looks fierce in the makeup, but all you have to do is watch a real rodeo event for about five minutes and the, "What's wrong with this picture" will jump right out at you when Kahl Drogo is seen on a horse. 

You mentioned the cast of BBT. All nerds. In real life, one of them earned his first black belt at the age of ten. Chuck Norris has publicly said that his best student ever was Bob Barker, a skinny host of a schmaltzy television show in the 1960's called Truth Or Consequences.

I would submit that when it comes to attraction, perception is more important than reality. Napoleon Dynamite claimed that, "..Chicks dig skills." 

Bull****. Chicks dig attractive men. Period.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: The Sexodus - another article on men giving up pursuit of women*



ocotillo said:


> Using actors to illustrate this point is interesting because they are an especially good example of the twilight zone that exists between perception and reality.
> 
> John Wayne often played a deadly gunfighter. The reality was he was slower and clumsier with a pistol than my grandmother. (Literally) In contrast, there was a short, little pot bellied balding man whose life overlapped John Wayne named Ed McGivern. He could draw a real pistol; put all six rounds through a playing card at fifteen feet and holster it again in 3/10ths of one second. That's so fast that people today often want to argue about it, but it was caught on film more than once.
> 
> Similarly, there was a character in the series Game of Thrones named Kahl Drogo, played by actor Jason Momoa. The Drogo character was the leader of a tribe of horseman. Momoa is a big boy and looks fierce in the makeup, but all you have to do is watch a real rodeo event for about five minutes and the, "What's wrong with this picture" will jump right out at you when Kahl Drogo is seen on a horse.
> 
> You mentioned the cast of BBT. All nerds. In real life, one of them earned his first black belt at the age of ten. Chuck Norris has publicly said that his best student ever was Bob Barker, a skinny host of a schmaltzy television show in the 1960's called Truth Or Consequences.
> 
> I would submit that when it comes to attraction, perception is more important than reality. Napoleon Dynamite claimed that, "..Chicks dig skills."
> 
> Bull****. Chicks dig attractive men. Period.


What I articulated poorly, is that I tend to agree. I don't think a man has to be perceived as masculine, to actually be masculine.

Being a chick magnet doesn't necessarily make one masculine in my eyes.

But I do think that masculine can be an image as well.
And now that Khal Drogo is going to Aquaman, let's hope he can swim.


----------



## Cletus

Deejo said:


> But I do think that masculine can be an image as well.
> And now that Khal Drogo is going to Aquaman, let's hope he can swim.


Why? Aquaman is sort of the posterboy for non-masculine superhero.


----------



## WandaJ

Well, it goes both ways. My understanding is that it is generational things, not gender. Younger generations, witnessing their parent's divorce rates, facing economical challenges, are not in a hurry to marry. Not only in the states. There is actually something called Together Living Apart, that in UK is recognized as valid relationship status for tax purposes (If I remember correctly).
And another thing - we are actually now going back to standard marriage rates for US. The last few dozens of years brought spike in marriages, now going back to "normal"


----------



## ConanHub

Oc. I agree that perceptions do influence women and men but when the chips are down, the people with real strength come out looking pretty good.

But real strength is dealing with everyday life as well including social skills at interacting with the opposite sex.

Women are initially attracted to what is perceived as attractive but that has no staying power for the long haul. 

I agree that, depending on the current environment, what is looked upon favorably can be different.

A strong masculine outlook is always in style regardless of current perceptions.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I'd be curious to see whether more of the guys opting out were raised by married parents, single dads or single moms.


----------



## ConanHub

Deejo said:


> Unless they distinctly and adamantly protest otherwise. Comes back to what I said earlier about 'roles'.
> 
> Take an aggregate of qualities:
> Honesty, integrity, honor, strength of character, commitment, physically and sexually competent, emotionally present, comfortable in own skin, lives by a code, can fix things, build things, break things, lift things.
> 
> All of those qualities I'm comfortable putting in the bucket of masculinity.
> 
> But often times, the fairer sex wants to parse the bucket, because somehow, somewhere along the line 'masculine' has been given an ambivalent connotation at best, or a negative one at worst.


Don't get me wrong. There are many men and women that hate/ can't stand me or are actually scared of me.

I don't shape my actions by current events or view points and it pisses more than a few people off.

But, in my sphere of influence, when life gets real or the shyt hits the fan, the folks that had previously derided me or thought ill of my positions, think about getting a hold of me first.

I have been called by women who needed help, in varying degrees of distress, that can't stand my belief system and have been publicly derisive of me. But I have always walked the walk and when some shyt went sideways for them they knew I would come and do my best to kick the living hell out of whatever problem they were facing.

I have a couple of very modern, maybe "radical" feminists that are actually pretty close friends. They cannot stomach my stance on men and women or really any other topic but have thought of me first when something crappy came along and they needed help.

Same with some of my female cousins and aunts. Regardless of how I am perceived, I get called.

I am absolutely filling a growing void of men that are checking out. I do not hold women as having no responsibility in this but I am a practicing very old school male that is surviving in a LTR and I am generally looked on as very masculine by those in my sphere, even those that don't like me.

John Wayne was an actor but I loved what he emulated in many of his movies. Quiet Man is one of my all time favorites.

My grandfather was the best man I ever new. He was born in 1912, took care of a woman and children through the depression and was the kindest, strongest man I have ever met. He spoke less than a John Wayne character but exuded all of that quiet confidence and strength. 

Funny enough, my grandmother was very much like Maureen O'Hara in attitude and style.

I have adopted much of my grandfathers style, though I talk more, and I have become a hub of strength for my extended family and friends.

I am looked to by far too many because there is a real void being created by men checking out. It is a real and dangerous situation but there are men who are not checking out and still thriving in the same shyt stew that everyone else is swimming in.

I think the men that are checking out need to be listened to but the men that have not checked out and are succeeding should really be taken note of.


----------



## RClawson

JCD said:


> Um...whoa!
> 
> I hear a different story. Young women have money. They can get jobs for the first time in their lives.
> 
> Except now, the culture still demands that when the girl gets married, she gets to essentially be the slave to her mother in law, treat her husband like gold, even if he cheats on her (traditionally, the bills for his sing song girls went to the wife...who PAID)...and Hiromi gets to compare THAT life to an American girl...and she says 'fvck this noise!'
> 
> Now, maybe there is something on the other side. But that is part of what I heard was going on there.


Actually my real life friend, Hiromi, tells me that young men in Japan just don't care and would rather play video games all day. Sound familiar?


----------



## coffee4me

As a mom raising a young man. I see from an early age where the checking out begins. In my neck of the woods it begins with the helicopter mom. These boys are stifled by their mothers and they simply give up. I see it single moms and 2 parent households. The dads in these households don't advocate for their sons they simply abide by moms decisions also. 

As young men many of them are not allowed the freedom to make choices. They are not deemed responsible enough to make decisions, drive cars or be able to fix a problem themselves. Kind of embarrassing having your mom drive you around on a date at 17. Call your teachers about your grades or hearing her tell her friends you are irresponsible and incapable of making good decisions. 

Then all of a sudden they are supposed to act like men? They were beaten down and defeated as boys, long before they became men. 

I can see where some say its an excuse and a real man just takes charge of his life. But there are a lot of young men out there now who were never taught how to take charge of their life or were never given permission to do so.


----------



## chaos

Many of these young men have been first hand witnesses to the emasculation of many of their married brethren and their eventual spitting out after they loose their value. They simply refuse to follow suit.


----------



## coffee4me

naiveonedave said:


> Just curious what would be on your list, if you are willing to share.


Masculine traits 
These are things that I am trying to instill in my son. I do not want him to be a young man who opts out. I want him to be a strong, masculine man like the kind of men I grew up around. 

Confidence- he needs to be confident in who he is and what he is capable of achieving. 

Decisive- make well thought out decisions and be confident in your choices. Be able to speak your mind. Own your decisions and the consequences. 

Strength- physical strength, stay fit keep your body strong. Mental strength, life is going to throw stuff at you and you need to fight your way threw it. 

Leadership- be a leader, take control of a situation if you can. Think about the big picture and how to lead to obtain the goal. Step up! Not behind another. 

Goals and achievement- Set goals, have a purpose. Don't just exist, accomplish something. 

Respect and protect- you show respect to the women in your life and protect them from those who do not show them respect. 

Reading my own list I am reminded of what I wrote in memory of my father. 

He was man who lived life to its fullest. He was passionate about everything he did. He pursued his goals with unstoppable determination. His love of life, family and country will be his legacy. 

That's the kind of man I'm trying to raise but at times it certainly feels like I'm alone and my thinking radical in my circle of modern parents.


----------



## RClawson

3 years ago I came to this site with my tail between my legs. I was looking for answers because I was completely lost in my relationship. It dawned on me one day that she had lost respect for me and I was clueless up to that point.

Understand I was never a "player" and I had no "game" growing up. I knew this early on and honestly there were very few girls I was attracted to beyond the physical. I had endless female friends who I loved to death but could not even fathom being in a relationship with them. I met my wife and everything clicked. We had a whirlwind romance. Like everyone we experienced ups and downs but middle age really was comfortable and I thought life could not get more perfect. One day I woke up and realized I was living with someone I did not know.

Enter TAM. I was quickly diagnosed as a "Nice Guy" (no arguments here). Prescription? 180? Implementation was simple and initial results were satisfactory but I soon found that the guy I was turning into was not me. 

I can say our relationship is much better than when I first came here but I remain pissed off. I am angry that she acts like nothing happened and that she is the nicest person that walked the earth. She is an entitled Princess. Just a couple of weeks ago I heard her tell her BFF on the phone that she "doesn't need me". Nice huh? I thought we just needed one another but at least I know where I stand in the grand scheme of things. 

Most of these changes I chalk up to me losing my earning power. She used to throw it in my face that she made more money than me and tells her friend I am sensitive about the fact that she makes more than I do. Nothing could be further from the truth. What I am sensitive about was the fact that she felt the need to use it as reminder of her perceived "new station" in our relationship. Yes it is a real b!tch being the breadwinner. 

Sorry if the article resonates with me friends but I have lived some of these things personally and I am in my 50's. I am still shocked with the attitude she pulled on me for 4 years and I regret not calling her out on it much sooner but that is a Nice Guy for you.


----------



## jld

I just want our boys to follow their dad's example.


----------



## coffee4me

RClawson said:


> Just a couple of weeks ago I heard her tell her BFF on the phone that she "doesn't need me". Nice huh? I thought we just needed one another but at least I know where I stand in the grand scheme of things.


Ouch! Sorry RC that stings just reading it. At least you know where you stand. 

I've opted out of relationships myself so I get some if the reasons for just throwing in the towel, but I wouldn't want that for my kids.


----------



## Anon Pink

RClawson said:


> Actually my real life friend, Hiromi, tells me that young men in Japan just don't care and would rather play video games all day. Sound familiar?




Our plot to take over the world goes well. Bwahahahaha!


----------



## chaos

jld said:


> I just want our boys to follow their dad's example.


Especially in choosing a quality woman like their mother.


----------



## jld

My goodness! Thank you, chaos.


----------



## Shoto1984

I had a discussion with a woman recently who accepted responsibility for the breakup of her marriage. She explained that she was totally focused on their kids and on herself leaving little energy or time for her husband. She said she had lost a good man and if given a chance with a good man again she would not make the same mistake. It was refreshing.


----------



## Deejo

Shoto1984 said:


> I had a discussion with a woman recently who accepted responsibility for the breakup of her marriage. She explained that she was totally focused on their kids and on herself leaving little energy or time for her husband. She said she had lost a good man and if given a chance with a good man again she would not make the same mistake. It was refreshing.


Which is exactly why many men like the one she left, dial back on being 'good'.


----------



## JCD

Anon Pink said:


> Your ex wife sounds like a horrible person.
> 
> Doesn't sound like you need a woman at all. Not sure why your should bother.
> 
> Not sure what I can do about your sitch. I am a woman and you seem to have lumped all of us into one basket based on your basket case of an ex. So on behalf of all women, cause I am the official spokeswoman and all, we're sorry you were assigned the worst of the bunch. We sincerely apologize for her defectiveness and we will gladly take her back to the factory for a complete overhaul.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Just out of curiosity...I don't suppose you have a 100,000 mile tune up I can send my wife to?

(And off topic, Mrs. JCD is talking about 'trade in's. Not sure if we need to switch cars yet....:scratchhead: )


----------



## JCD

NobodySpecial said:


> I think I need to go tell Google how wrong it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Me? I am just another obnoxious internet b!tch.


We love you for who you are.


----------



## ChristianGrey

michzz said:


> in a Darwinian fashion, all those people opting for robots will be pruned out of the gene pool.
> 
> just sayin'


We would be mining Asteroids for resources and living on Mars by then.


----------



## FormerSelf

coffee4me said:


> But there are a lot of young men out there now who were never taught how to take charge of their life or were never given permission to do so.


:iagree:
Teens are almost an alien species these days as they aren't cute little lambs anymore, but moms often don't know what they require at this stage, and dads are often not in the picture or checked out.


----------



## vellocet

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'd be curious to see whether more of the guys opting out were raised by married parents, single dads or single moms.


Raised by married parents, still together to this day. Very loving household.


----------



## vellocet

chaos said:


> Especially in choosing a quality woman like their mother.


Unless she is like my X. I don't want either of them to choose someone like her.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Shoto1984 said:


> I had a discussion with a woman recently who accepted responsibility for the breakup of her marriage. She explained that she was totally focused on their kids and on herself leaving little energy or time for her husband. She said she had lost a good man and if given a chance with a good man again she would not make the same mistake. It was refreshing.



"What women want is roasted ice" - old Arab saying


----------



## Faithful Wife

My adult son who had been deeply entrenched in the hook up culture has recently had his world knocked over by a girl who appears to be "the one who took him out of that world". But here's the thing. I'm proud of him now and I was proud of him before, too, even though he appeared to be headed toward a future of maybe never being married. Why? Because he is an adult and I'm excited to see what he chooses for himself. I don't want him to just do what is expected of him (by society) and just marry someone just to be married. If he chooses to be part of a new trend of unmarried adults, I will still be supportive. I think getting married just because it is culturally expected is why there is so much divorce. If less marriages also means less divorces, I'm all for it.

However, surprise surprise...when that certain girl comes along ... Suddenly you find yourself thinking about little houses with white pickett fences!


----------



## awake1

Interesting thread. 

I think our society is over correcting a bit too much. Quality of life and happiness surveys bear this out.


----------



## vellocet

The Cro-Magnon said:


> I never wanted to leave my family. I never wanted to leave my kids. I pay double child support, yet she still denies me access.


Well hopefully you get to come back to respond, but I'll post this anyway.

What a load of bulls***. Take her to court! If you have set visitation and she keeps them from you, she can be held in contempt, and possibly a custody change in order.

Fine how do you do eh? Wife betrays you, but its you that gets your kids taken away from you and you get to pay for the privilege of not being with them every day. Or in your case, not at all.

And how is it you are paying double? Take her to court. Have her slapped with contempt.

Oh, and in case anyone thinks this is off topic, wrong. This is but one of the reasons men are giving up. It certainly is part of why I am giving up.




> WHilst her conducting herself like a gutter dwelling *****, spending the child support on jim beam, beer, tattoos, LEAVING THE KIDS with her friends and parents to go out and get black out drunk then sleep with complete scumbag strangers, with her drunk tattooed bottom feeding frankston single mum friends, whilst my kids are going backwards, and my boy can't even hold a knife and fork because she just throws dinner in front of him then sits on her ipad looking on internet dating or ebay dreaming of her next purchase, running around spending hundreds on concert tickets and tattoos while crying poor to me that she can't afford them xmas presents


And here is the b!tch of it, nothing you can do about that. She is allowed to spend the money on whatever she wants as long as the kids have the minimum basics.

But again, keeping them from you? Different story. Only way she can keep them from you is if she can prove you are a drug addict, abusive, etc. If you are a fit father, she is violating custody agreement. And if there is no custody agreement, GET ONE!

In that regard, don't give up.




> Awesome, thanks, good to know I'm just being a child, and that her life choices are equally as valid and worthwhile as my own, and that her leaving me and taking the kids means that I am abandoning them, even though I die inside every day I am away from them.


Don't let them/her get to you. Your wife's despicable behavior will be ignored by her, much less the reprehensible act of keeping your kids away from you, which hurts the kids more than anyone, and whatever you do, even though you were betrayed and thrown into this situation....you will be the jerk.

Ignore it, but looks like its too late. You have been successfully baited by someone with an attitude that speaks to the premise of this thread...why men are giving up.

I hope they let you back and you can learn, as have I, not to let certain people bait you.


Now addressing the rest of the TAMers in this thread, with regards to giving up. I know there are a lot of good women out there, yet still I'm done. I just don't want to take the chance on getting another lemon. I could find someone if I waited long enough, but I'm just not interested any longer.


----------



## that.girl

vellocet said:


> Now addressing the rest of the TAMers in this thread, with regards to giving up. I know there are a lot of good women out there, yet still I'm done. I just don't want to take the chance on getting another lemon. I could find someone if I waited long enough, but I'm just not interested any longer.


Does it annoy you when you say this, and people say "Don't worry, you'll change your mind when you meet the right girl!" (or whatever)?

I think it would annoy me. It's kind of like when a woman says she doesn't want kids, and everyone tells her she'll change her mind. 

Just a thought.


----------



## chaos

It may not be so much a distrust of women but a distrust in ones own judgement in selecting a good woman that is at the heart of many men who chose to opt out.


----------



## naiveonedave

chaos said:


> It may not be so much a distrust of women but a distrust  in ones own judgement in selecting a good woman that is at the heart of many men who chose to opt out.


I agree. I think it is very hard to be a 'good picker' right now.


----------



## vellocet

that.girl said:


> Does it annoy you when you say this, and people say "Don't worry, you'll change your mind when you meet the right girl!" (or whatever)?
> 
> I think it would annoy me. It's kind of like when a woman says she doesn't want kids, and everyone tells her she'll change her mind.
> 
> Just a thought.


Nah, doesn't annoy me at all. I know that when someone says that their heart is in the right place.

Nothing like saying, with regards to cheating, "it could happen to anyone", now THAT annoys me.


----------



## vellocet

chaos said:


> It may not be so much a distrust of women but a distrust in ones own judgement in selecting a good woman that is at the heart of many men who chose to opt out.


That is so not it.


----------



## chaos

naiveonedave said:


> I agree. I think it is very hard to be a 'good picker' right now.


Perhaps developing platonic friendships with women could help. These friends could potentially help screen out the lemons.


----------



## D.H Mosquito

If i was single again or made single (somedays still tempted to be single) then i would not look for another woman but enjoy my money on cars and holidays


----------



## ConanHub

chaos said:


> Perhaps developing platonic friendships with women could help. These friends could potentially help screen out the lemons.


Really! Stop with the logic!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## naiveonedave

chaos said:


> Perhaps developing platonic friendships with women could help. These friends could potentially help screen out the lemons.


when I was in my teens, I had a few female friends who always tried to set me up. they always ended up being epic fails. Proablby 10 for 10 on fails, and at least 6 blind dates lasted less than a couple of hours.


----------



## chaos

naiveonedave said:


> when I was in my teens, I had a few female friends who always tried to set me up. they always ended up being epic fails. Proablby 10 for 10 on fails, and at least 6 blind dates lasted less than a couple of hours.


You cannot compare a teenage girl's judgement with that of an adult female.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I always thought the organic getting to know thing worked better than the pursuit thing.


----------



## Trickster

coffee4me said:


> Masculine traits
> These are things that I am trying to instill in my son. I do not want him to be a young man who opts out. I want him to be a strong, masculine man like the kind of men I grew up around.
> 
> Confidence- he needs to be confident in who he is and what he is capable of achieving.
> 
> Decisive- make well thought out decisions and be confident in your choices. Be able to speak your mind. Own your decisions and the consequences.
> 
> Strength- physical strength, stay fit keep your body strong. Mental strength, life is going to throw stuff at you and you need to fight your way threw it.
> 
> Leadership- be a leader, take control of a situation if you can. Think about the big picture and how to lead to obtain the goal. Step up! Not behind another.
> 
> Goals and achievement- Set goals, have a purpose. Don't just exist, accomplish something.
> 
> Respect and protect- you show respect to the women in your life and protect them from those who do not show them respect.
> 
> Reading my own list I am reminded of what I wrote in memory of my father.
> 
> He was man who lived life to its fullest. He was passionate about everything he did. He pursued his goals with unstoppable determination. His love of life, family and country will be his legacy.
> 
> That's the kind of man I'm trying to raise but at times it certainly feels like I'm alone and my thinking radical in my circle of modern parents.


The list below is very similar to yours... I like your list

Here are the 21 suggestions for success: by H. Jackson Brown Jr.

1) Marry the right person. This one decision will determine 90% of your happiness or misery.
2) Workers at something you enjoy and that's worth your time and talent.
3) Give people more than they expect and do it cheerfully.
4) Become the most positive and enthusiastic person you know.
5) Be forgiving of yourself and others.
6) Be generous.
7) Have a grateful heart.
8) Persistence, persistence, persistence.
9) Discipline yourself to save money on even the most modest salary.
10) Treat everyone you meet like you want to be treated.
11) Commit yourself to constant improvement.
12) Commit yourself to quality.
13) Understand that happiness is not based on possessions, power or prestige, but on relationships with people you love and respect.
14) Be loyal.
15) Be honest.
16) Be a self-starter.
17) Be decisive even if it means you'll sometimes be wrong.
18) Stop blaming others. Take responsibility for every area of your life.
19) Be bold and courageous. When you look back on your life, you'll regret the things you didn't do more than the ones you did.
20) Take good care of those you love.
21) Don't do anything that wouldn't make your Mom proud.


----------



## Anon1111

This is all a logical result of female empowerment. It is a sociological fact that, by and large, women do not date down. 

With greater and greater levels of female achievement, there is a smaller and smaller pool of males who are considered acceptable mates. The phenomenon is particularly pronounced in subgroups like African Americans where there is a greater disparity between female and male achievement. 

Women ask, where have all the good men gone? But the reality is their standards have gotten higher (due to their achievement).

Meanwhile, the ever increasing pool of substandard (in the eyes of women) men think, why am I no longer good enough?

To them, it seems like women demand more and more without offering anything more in return. In a sense, they are right.

But the better view is that more and more women are not interested in the majority of men at all. They only think the top tier of men are acceptable.

For men in the top tier, things have actually gotten easier.


----------



## Shoto1984

And this will continue. Its the Sex In The City fantasy but in reality you end up old and alone and isn't that fun....but then its too late....oh darn.


----------



## Trickster

My wife and I definitely have our issues. I will give my wife credit for one thing...

My wife has never demanded anything from me, not even marriage

I have always had freedom to do what I wanted to do, within reason

My wife never expected me to change to improve myself

Overall, I think my wife accepted me with all my issues...

With all my weird behavior, she hasn't reacted in any way...

Maybe that is unconditional love most of us want...

I just wish we had romantic love...


If I started over again, as cute as I am, I don't think any woman that I am attracted to would put up with me...

I would never give up on women.... Women are what keeps men sane. Women makes men feel alive, women are why we are willing to climb mountains, walk over not coals. Without women, us me would kill each other off pretty quick. 

I am 2-1/2 months without sex....I am angry, frustrated, lonely, and many other adjectives I can't say.... Sex would fix all that pretty quick... Mutually satisfying sex is awesome... I think it was awesome. My memory is a little fuzzy...

Stop pursuing women? Never


----------



## john117

unbelievable said:


> Considering that an American man is like a rock star in the eyes of most of the earth's females, there's little need for any of them to have discolored testicles.



Sex, like politics, is local. I'm sure my sex rank in my old village is a number approaching the national debt in magnitude but I can't - for lack of a better term - cash in from Paducah.

And returning to my village permanently is not an answer. American men are liked, don't get me wrong, but panties don't drop at the sight of an American passport


----------



## coffee4me

Anon1111 said:


> Women ask, where have all the good men gone? But the reality is their standards have gotten higher (due to their achievement).
> 
> Meanwhile, the ever increasing pool of substandard (in the eyes of women) men think, why am I no longer good enough?
> .


Getting very difficult in today's society to define "good man". Are the standards now not just higher but different? 

Men are supposed to express their emotions, real men cry. They are supposed to be masculine but not knights, women don't need to be rescued. They are not supposed to be tough guys or heros. Aren't most lead characters in action movies still tough guys and heros? Or maybe they are supposed to be sensitive vampires? Who knows? I give up.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Wow, if a man happens to be a little bit shy or introverted or might happen to have his own world rather than being someone brimming with confidence (the most overused word in the English language applied to men), a take-charge sort of guy, etc. etc., well then that guy ain't even on the radar for your ladies and gents.


I really find that we're all talking about what makes a man good because everything is up in the air and we really don't know anymore.


----------



## D.H Mosquito

My wife has just shown me this article on a feminist website, needless to say it was panned by them but a thought just hot me as i was typing why is she on a site like that? perhaps she feels hard done by because her cheating ass got busted lol


----------



## vellocet

Shoto1984 said:


> And this will continue. Its the Sex In The City fantasy but in reality you end up old and alone and isn't that fun



Depends on who you are. I know I'm having the time of my life not having a steady


----------



## BookOfJob

Trickster said:


> .....
> 3) Give people more than they expect and do it cheerfully.
> .....
> 10) Treat everyone you meet like you want to be treated.
> .....
> 14) Be loyal.
> .....


For those of you with academic inclination, the following is tonight's homework. Homework counts 30% of your grade in the degree that you're working on.

In 500 words or less, explain:

#3, how does it relate to the 2/3 rule in the "16 commandements of poon"?

#10, with some of us here in the forum being the spouses (or former spouses) of cheating wives, how does #10 relates?

#14, same above(?)

With 3 items being viewed in a different light, does that mean all 21 becomes questionable?

Why ask why? Drink .......weiser

(I like the list in general. It's time for a lighter moment. :rofl


----------



## Deejo

coffee4me said:


> Who knows? I give up.


So are they.


----------



## chaos

Mr Useless said:


> My wife has just shown me this article on a feminist website, needless to say it was panned by them but a thought just hot me as i was typing why is she on a site like that? perhaps she feels hard done by because her cheating ass got busted lol


She is trying to convince herself that her affair was a symbol "female empowerment"?


----------



## Westwind

In my family we have a doctor marrying a helicopter mechanic and a head corporate attorney married to a swimming coach. These women make about four times what their husbands make. Women now have to marry down.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I'm personally appalled at at the level of female expectations. Many I find are either super shallow or so irrational that any hope of ever meeting them are totally futile. So I don't blame guys for the sexodus. If my H and I end up not surviving in the future I'm not even sure I will try to get involved with anyone having so many train wrecks walking around. Good grief.


----------



## ConanHub

john117 said:


> Sex, like politics, is local. I'm sure my sex rank in my old village is a number approaching the national debt in magnitude but I can't - for lack of a better term - cash in from Paducah.
> 
> And returning to my village permanently is not an answer. American men are liked, don't get me wrong, but panties don't drop at the sight of an American passport


Oh darn!!!&#55357;&#56850;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

chaos said:


> She is trying to convince herself that her affair was a symbol "female empowerment"?


He should "empower" her by making her fully independent.


----------



## chaos

vellocet said:


> He should "empower" her by making her fully independent.


Spoken like a true misogynist


----------



## D.H Mosquito

vellocet said:


> He should "empower" her by making her fully independent.


If she comes out with any of that feminist stuff she will be but at the moment she is still in the very lucky girl stage and she knows it


----------



## vellocet

chaos said:


> Spoken like a true misogynist


Really? Surely this is sarcasm and I'm just not picking up on it


----------



## chaos

vellocet said:


> Really? Surely this is sarcasm and I'm just not picking up on it


It is sarcasm. I thought the smiley was enough, but I guess I should have added quotation marks on the word misogynist itself. Nevertheless, there are probably some loonies who would agree with my facetious comments.


----------



## D.H Mosquito

chaos said:


> Spoken like a true misogynist


It doesn't make him a misogynist we all have our reasons for staying or walking away after a betrayal i love reading both your posts (read a good few of them)as it helps give me a sense of balance and both your insights and experiences are invaluable to me :smthumbup:


----------



## vellocet

chaos said:


> It is sarcasm. I thought the smiley was enough, but I guess I should have added quotation marks on the word misogynist itself. Nevertheless, there are probably some loonies who would agree with my facetious comments.


Whew. Ok. I like ya, wasn't wanting to have to go off!!


----------



## SoWhat

All part of wider trends.
The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness


----------



## naiveonedave

SoWhat said:


> All part of wider trends.
> The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness


So are women more miserable or are their expectations higher or both?


----------



## john117

Much higher expectations by far.


----------



## SoWhat

Higher expectations. Rampant narcissism (self-obsession; not self-love). Lack of any institutions or belief systems which promise lasting satisfaction, rather than temporary, commodified goodfeelz. The rise of materialism. Deterioration of the average woman's mental state (1/4 on some sort of prescription mental health drug). Deferred marriage leading to highly deferred childbearing, meaning women foregoing one of their biological imperatives (that just so happens correlates to life satisfaction). Less sex with more people. Marrying/settling for males who they do not find sexually appealing. Sedentary lives and low-quality diets leading to being overweight/obese. 

This isn't all just limited to women. Many of the social and economic drivers of this stuff also claim most men as casualties. But a nation of many miserable, unattractive women is also going to contain a lot of men who don't see much incentive to enter increasingly risky legal relationships with those women. 

A lot of us here on TAM are really lucky. I know I am.


----------



## Anon Pink

Whether you're right or not, in the end you can only be responsible for yourself.

If you believe your path to happiness is without a woman, that's okay. You should follow it and not feel pressured to find a woman. Don't burden yourself with a woman/partner unless you find you personally cannot be happy without her.

I promise you, women will be okay you opting out.


----------



## Dogbert

Anon Pink said:


> Whether you're right or not, in the end you can only be responsible for yourself.
> 
> If you believe your path to happiness is without a woman, that's okay. You should follow it and not feel pressured to find a woman. Don't burden yourself with a woman/partner unless you find you personally cannot be happy without her.
> 
> I promise you, women will be okay you opting out.


Speaking of happiness. The absolutely false notion that another human being can bring you happiness, is behind a great amount of the misery that people experience in relationships. No woman or man can bring happiness to another. No human being should get married before being happy being single first.

We are responsible for our own happiness.


----------



## Runs like Dog

naiveonedave said:


> So are women more miserable or are their expectations higher or both?


"What women want is roasted ice" - Arab proverb


----------



## Youngster

Interesting thread,
My take based on conversations with single friends and colleagues is that men aren't necessarily giving up on women. Rather, they are giving up on committed relationships with women. The hook-up culture of today makes finding sex partners easy. Since men can find sex partners easily what advantages does marriage offer them? It's like the old saying "why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free".

Even men who want a committed monogamous relationship see that marriage is at best a huge financial and personal risk. The single men I talk to don't feel the risk is worth the reward. Sure, if they find the right woman they may move in with her but they is no way want to get married and have children.


----------



## alphaomega

Feminists can beotch all they want, but you can't erase 3.5 million years of evolutionary patterns in three generations.

They are mostly predictable. In the end, they just want to be heard. Have a voice.

Because I'm messed up like that, I used this to my advantage in a social setting not that long ago.

I got paired with an extreme feminist on an outing...only because we were the only two not in a relationship.

Immediately, she goes off on the male rant to me, up at the bar when dinner was over and we were getting drinks. Internally, I groaned, but externally I just agreed to mostly everything she said...."wow! I an see how you feel that way! That mst be tough to go through..."

And on andon all night. And then on and on all night back at her place. She was the man that night, taking control...but whatever...it was still fun.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

This thread has shown the hand of so many! Why are men in financial risk when getting married but not women? Why are men supposed to be the strong ones? Why are we surprised that most households with children require two incomes and then moan when the woman makes less than the man? Did he stay home after the birth if his kids, or did his wife? When the kid gets sick, who leaves work to be home with the sick child?

It seems modern American society requires a balancing act from so many, yet so few are really ready and able for the new age. To keep the balance, both husband and wife must straddle the line or find the way to make it work. 

And to all the men who have sworn off women, that is for the best. You aren't healthy enough emotionally for a relationship, so you are doing us all a favor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SurpriseMyself

alphaomega said:


> Feminists can beotch all they want, but you can't erase 3.5 million years of evolutionary patterns in three generations.
> 
> They are mostly predictable. In the end, they just want to be heard. Have a voice.
> 
> Because I'm messed up like that, I used this to my advantage in a social setting not that long ago.
> 
> I got paired with an extreme feminist on an outing...only because we were the only two not in a relationship.
> 
> Immediately, she goes off on the male rant to me, up at the bar when dinner was over and we were getting drinks. Internally, I groaned, but externally I just agreed to mostly everything she said...."wow! I an see how you feel that way! That mst be tough to go through..."
> And on andon all night. And then on and on all night back at her place. She was the man that night, taking control...but whatever...it was still fun.


That is hysterical!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

Anon Pink said:


> I promise you, women will be okay you opting out.


I really like your style.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Just have to add that this article is pretty pathetic. Since when are men treated unfairly at bars, clubs, and the like?! Boys take longer to mature than girls, so if women achieve more earlier in their schooling, it comes as no surprise.

Ironic that most men on TAM that are angry and have either sworn off women or who feel their wives are manipulating them or think that they'd be better off with a mail-order bride are white, middle age conservatives. I suspect they just hate having to accept the modern society, particularly females being less subservient and more independent and they can't handle it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

More for me and my two studmuffin sons. &#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

I don't think anyone denies the fact that general men get hosed the most in a divorce....


----------



## ConanHub

intheory said:


> Conan,
> 
> I think it's admirable for you to assist these women who want a male friend in their lives sometimes for guidance, support etc.
> 
> But - 1.) You've got your own life to live; job, home, kids, wife. You could get really taken advantage of.
> 
> 2.) Mrs. Conan (as you are well aware, I'm sure ), is first and foremost. I hope she's really ok with all these other gals making a bid for your time and efforts.
> 
> And it's always a bit dangerous to be around vulnerable women looking for a man to give them a "shoulder to cry on". I mean if one of them did make a pass at you. Very awkward. You'd have to end the association with them, and so forth.
> 
> 
> You are probably totally cognizant of all of this. I just had a bit of a red flag moment when reading your post.


I appreciate the concern. Mrs. Conan is always involved to keep things honest. I won't cross lines but she takes any doubt away.

If we didn't have titanium boundaries in place there could be trouble. We have also been in ministry for nearly two decades and had to learn precautions early on.

Outrageous amounts of infidelity in the church. Pisses me off!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SurpriseMyself

john117 said:


> I don't think anyone denies the fact that general men get hosed the most in a divorce....


In my state it is absolutely equal. No one is hosed. Joint custody, equal split of shared assets, excepting what was brought into the marriage. I work, so if I do get child support it will be $225 a month. How will he be hosed?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega

SurpriseMyself said:


> In my state it is absolutely equal. No one is hosed. Joint custody, equal split of shared assets, excepting what was brought into the marriage. I work, so if I do get child support it will be $225 a month. How will he be hosed?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


225 would be awesome. I pay 1850.

In my case, though, I'm ok with that. it's for my kids. I still have lots left over to spoil my kids in my time...plus do stupid guy stuff.


----------



## Holland

john117 said:


> I don't think anyone denies the fact that general men get hosed the most in a divorce....


Not in Aussie, it is usually a fair split. Shared care with kids and a fair formula for settlements based on standard criteria of current/future earning potential, assets brought into marriage, number and ages of kids, length of marriage.

The hardest done by men are the ones that think that every marital asset is theirs and theirs alone, yeah then they are hosed down when they learn that the legal system recognises that a SAHM is worth something, shock horror


----------



## Youngster

Holland said:


> Not in Aussie, it is usually a fair split. Shared care with kids and a fair formula for settlements based on standard criteria of current/future earning potential, assets brought into marriage, number and ages of kids, length of marriage.
> 
> The hardest done by men are the ones that think that every marital asset is theirs and theirs alone, yeah then they are hosed down when they learn that the legal system recognises that a SAHM is worth something, shock horror


That's certainly not the case in the US. Some states have alimony that goes on for years, a few still have lifetime alimony. Child custody is almost always in the women's favor.


----------



## Anon Pink

Runs like Dog said:


> "What women want is roasted ice" - Arab proverb



Quoting the Arab's on understanding woman is like quoting the KKK on race relations.


----------



## john117

... Equal split of shared assets...

I'll let you ponder on that for a bit...

My wife and I make similar money so that's not an issue - but if she was a SAHM and decided she wants out for any reason, legit or not, hello 50%. 

Also not all states are like yours, another major issue... Getting joint custody where I live is not common.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

john117 said:


> ... Equal split of shared assets...
> 
> I'll let you ponder on that for a bit...
> 
> My wife and I make similar money so that's not an issue - but if she was a SAHM and decided she wants out for any reason, legit or not, hello 50%.
> 
> Also not all states are like yours, another major issue... Getting joint custody where I live is not common.


I did not get to be a SAHM. My H was not willing to live on only his salary; it made him too anxious. So I have worked.

Recognize you stand corrected, and that men aren't always taken to the cleaners as is so often portrayed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soccermom2three

john117 said:


> I don't think anyone denies the fact that general men get hosed the most in a divorce....



I must live in Superman's bizarro world because I know more women than men that had to pay through the nose in their divorces. One woman is paying alimony. 
Or the couple split everything 50/50 and went their separate ways. I only know one guy that had to pay alimony for while then his ex got married.


----------



## john117

Or you must be living in states that are more equitable.

In my Midwestern conservative state men are generally screwed and in other more "progressive" states they get screwed even more. Two cases I know where male friends or relatives were completely screwed are New Jersey and Wisconsin... 

When I looked into joint or full custody in my county the lawyer I consulted plainly told me the wife had to be Susan Smith to lose full custody...


----------



## SurpriseMyself

In most states the parents must agree to joint custody. I believe my kids need their father every bit as much as they need me, and so I will do what I believe is best. When women are paid on the same scale as men and when men are the ones who, more often than not, stay home with their newborns or are just as likely to be the stay at home parent, things will shift. But given our society's views on gender roles, particularly in conservative areas, this may never happen.

Moreover, if the children are accustomed to spending a large percentage of their time with one parent, why should you expect that to change with divorce? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holland

john117 said:


> ... Equal split of shared assets...
> 
> I'll let you ponder on that for a bit...
> 
> *My wife and I make similar money so that's not an issue - but if she was a SAHM and decided she wants out for any reason, legit or not, hello 50%.
> *
> Also not all states are like yours, another major issue... Getting joint custody where I live is not common.


The thing many men forget is that a SAHM is contributing to the household. It is not just those in paid employment. Fortunately the Courts recognise that raising children is a role that is valuable. The marital assets do not belong to just one party, if men carried on this way during marriage then it would be viewed as financial abuse and rightly so.
Nothing more baby like than a grown man whinging that he is the only one entitled to any assets from divorce.


----------



## NotLikeYou

SurpriseMyself said:


> This thread has shown the hand of so many! Why are men in financial risk when getting married but not women? Why are men supposed to be the strong ones? Why are we surprised that most households with children require two incomes and then moan when the woman makes less than the man? Did he stay home after the birth if his kids, or did his wife? When the kid gets sick, who leaves work to be home with the sick child?
> 
> It seems modern American society requires a balancing act from so many, yet so few are really ready and able for the new age. To keep the balance, both husband and wife must straddle the line or find the way to make it work.
> 
> And to all the men who have sworn off women, that is for the best. You aren't healthy enough emotionally for a relationship, so you are doing us all a favor.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll take a shot at answering these IMPORTANT QUESTIONS, before you have an attack of the vapors.....

First of all, it is sexist and hateful to phrase a question as "why are men in financial risk when getting married but not women?"

You should be ashamed of yourself, you prejudiced person, you.

Women are strong, equal, and independent, and JUST AS MUCH AT RISK FINANCIALLY as men are!

Except that any good feminist will bore you to tears whining about equal pay, because women make less than men. So, therefore, in a world where 2 + 2 equals 4, women are technically less at risk than men, since they are oppressed by the Patriarchy and have less to lose.

And women are also less at risk financially, because they are less likely to be ordered to pay child support.

Child Support Statistics in the United States

Details on alimony are very hard to find, since the government doesn't want them collected and published where men might see them and get annoyed.

But here is an vague overview.

Alimony Figures

Nothing super useful to prove any points, since it is mostly devoid of numbers.

But, remember- women are underpaid and oppressed. Alimony is designed to help the poorer more oppressed-er person survive in this cold cruel world, so the man is just more likely to be the pay-er than the pay-ee.

(That means the man is more at financial risk).

So hopefully this explains how a person of male persuasion might conceivably be considered to be more "at risk" financially in a marriage type situation than a person who leans female.



"Why are men supposed to be the strong ones?"

Well, see, when a man and a woman like each other a lot....


Sorry, wrong explanation.

Well, see, back before men invented labor saving devices like fertilizer, hunting rifles, and tractors, collecting food involved a lot more effort than it does today.

The men who were able to work harder and acquire more food were better prepared to support women and children, and a few thousand years later, here we are, at a point where women can show their appreciation for the bountiful society they live in by attending "The Vagina Monologues."

Oh, sorry, did you mean "strong" in the sense of "stoic in the face of emotional turmoil?"

Well, that's easy. Men HAVE to be strong, because they have to provide a solid base for women to rely upon- women are so oppressed and have it so terrible in our society that if it weren't for strong men, well, everyone would just sit around crying at the injustice of it all and the only people who would have any money would be tissue paper manufacturers.


"And to all the men who have sworn off women, that is for the best. You aren't healthy enough emotionally for a relationship, so you are doing us all a favor."

Don't you giggle at people who use shaming language? I know I do.

As a woman, you've never gotten to experience the joys of testosterone. The need to breed makes men do all kinds of stupid things. Google "The Mystery Method" and watch guys dress up like loons trying to pick up women to bump uglies with. Go read Roosh V and see how hard guys are trying to figure out how to persuade a woman to hike up her skirt for a few minutes.

The male sex puts immense effort into trying to get laid.

There may or may not be a significant percentage of young men making a conscious decision to avoid marriage and the pursuit of women. I certainly am not persuaded that the original article on the Sexodus is correct. And even if it is, people change, and a 30 year old guy might feel differently about marriage than he did at 20.

The "problem" that the Sexodus article attempts to investigate and explain is a statistical one- there is a drop in marriage rates in certain age demographics.

The authors of the article posit a theory "wimmen are too much trouble!" and then set out and interview individuals looking for guys who say things that support their assertion.

Its not at all clear that there even is a problem, much less that the problem is that a million-plus guys have individually reached the same conclusion that "wimmen are too much trouble!"

The interesting thing to me is that, given all this speculation in support of an un-proveable conclusion, YOU, SurpriseMyself, are not only prepared to accept it hook, line, and sinker, but you are also prepared to judge this hypothetical group of men as defective and unworthy of a relationship with a "real woman."

I don't know whether a million-plus guys are defective and "not healthy enough for a relationship," but I'm pretty sure that you have more hate and contempt for the opposite sex than is good for a person.

On the other hand, this thread has certainly "shown the hand of many." Be sure to include yourself on the list of the exposed.....


----------



## john117

The only joint custody I accept as such is 50-50. In my state it happens but not often and only on cases of "amicable separation". And in my state child support payments are way overblown... 

I value SAHM contributions (esp. after my not quite peachy marriage to a career driven woman) but said contributions should not be near 50-50 to the degree that anyone marrying a wealthy guy hits the jackpot in a divorce settlement. This gives an incentive to cause a split for trivial differences...

I wish there was a better way unfortunately but the current system is way too rigged in my opinion. Maybe I live in a Bible thumper state


----------



## Dogbert

Let's face it, we all like to drink the Kool-Aid no matter how much poison is in it. There will never be a shortage of suckers.


----------



## Q tip

Well, in my next life, thinking about being gay. 

...at least the problems and frustrations will be different.


----------



## Ripper

Dogbert said:


> Let's face it, we all like to drink the Kool-Aid no matter how much poison is in it. There will never be a shortage of suckers.


When training the new guys or talking to younger male relatives I sometimes feel like one of those people who scream at the television during a horror movie. You see them about to do something utterly stupid and can't do a thing to stop it.


----------



## tom67

Deejo said:


> I don't know if this so much is about bitter men, quite so much as it is neither sex yet seems quite comfortable acknowledging that each has a role in the relationship.
> 
> Instead, we argue about eliminating roles, and then wonder why men aren't behaving like men.


Well here is why men don't at least a part of it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/opinion/sunday/the-best-way-to-address-campus-rape.html?_r=0
Deejo men 20 years younger than us (well me) never experienced this.
At least to this level imo.
That was from http://www.avoiceformen.com/
How about this travesty
http://www.theroot.com/articles/new...sing_to_pay_child_support_for_child_that.html


----------



## Dogbert

Q tip said:


> Well, in my next life, thinking about being gay.
> 
> ...at least the problems and frustrations will be different.


Gay friend says there's more infidelity in the gay community.


----------



## Catherine602

I claim naming rights to this topic - "Groundhog Thread". 

Plot synopsis: A coming-of-angst thread. Boy meets girls. Girls interested in the study, school, success. Boys interested in sex, sex, sex. Boys hate independent feminist and turn up their noses. Girls hate sex-crazed misogynist and turn their noses down to books. Authoritative web sites project that the last child will be born near a valley somewhere in Ethiopia around the year 2055. 

In the interveining 40 years, men retreat into simulated reality apps and life with botgirls from Japan. Women stay real and run the world till - - The End.


----------



## ConanHub

Catherine602 said:


> I claim naming rights to this topic - "Groundhog Thread".
> 
> Plot synopsis: A coming-of-angst film. Boy meets girls. Girls interested in the study, school, success. Boys interested in sex, sex, sex. Boys hate independent feminist and turn up their noses. Girls hate sex-crazed misogynist and turn down nose into books. Authoritative web sites project the last child will be born near a valley in Ethiopia around 2055.
> 
> In the interveining 40 years, men retreat into simulated reality apps and life with botgirls from Japan. Women stay real and run the world till - - The End.


Or.... Me and men like me have 400 wives and 1000 concubines and thousands of children....

Interesting sci-fi fantasy! &#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

ConanHub said:


> Or.... Me and men like me have 400 wives and 1000 concubines and thousands of children....
> 
> Interesting sci-fi fantasy! ��
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl::lol::lol::rofl:

To the victor the spoils.


----------



## ConanHub

Catherine602 said:


> :rofl::lol::lol::rofl:
> 
> To the victor the spoils.


LOL! Might make an interesting story. I would have to have some influence affect something like 95% of males have a brain chemistry /hormone shift leaving only 5% of men with regular drives, testosterone levels and brain functions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!

That was phenomenal! Epic!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dogbert

Or men and women achieve immortality and become stuck in eternal arrested development.


----------



## Catherine602

Westwind said:


> In my family we have a doctor marrying a helicopter mechanic and a head corporate attorney married to a swimming coach. These women make about four times what their husbands make. Women now have to marry down.


How did you come to believe that they marry "down" and that it is something negative? Men marry down all the time with no judgement at all. 

I know women who are professional and married "down". They are in my family and husbands family. They don't act as if they got a bad deal. You can look at the issue with a different set of assumptions. Women who make money have the luxury of marrying for love not money or convenience. 

They find men who share their values and often their culture. Men who make lots of money are not the most attractive candidates when a woman can supply for her and her children's security.

My family and my in-laws are mostly construction workers, firemen and policemen. They are good men, intelligent, hardworking and family oriented. My husband would have been a construction worker if we didn't go to school together. He would still be the same person he is now.


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## Dogbert

Too easy to get married, too hard to get divorced. Maybe it should be the other way around. Nah! Makes too much sense.


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## ifweonly

Anon Pink said:


> Men and women are not the same, never have been never will be.
> 
> We may want the same things, love, respect, dignity and honor, but how we imagine those things to come about are vastly different.
> 
> Some women have been burned badly by men and are angry and bitter. Some men have been burned badly by women and are angry and bitter.
> 
> It is not more man's fault for women's bitterness than it is woman's fault for men. Their pickets are broken. Stop picking losers and crazy b!tches. Boom. Done.


I guess that I have been really blessed but I did not marry todays "modern woman"; my wife was a modern woman of her day.

I must admit that both my wife and I have observed that couples (read both men & women) do treat each other more harshly today than years past. Additionally, the media boldly illustrate women suggesting how dumb the male is. 

Take the Pizza Hut Super Bowl commercial showing a man getting hit in the groin. That was not funny --- I actually felt that man's perceived pain. Unacceptable!!! 

I don't have a magic solution for the issues that both man & women experience in today's marriages/relationships. I am sure better communication would help but as Anon Pink stated "Stop picking losers and crazy b!tches. Boom. Done!!!! Simple solution and right on --- thanks Anon Pink.


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## DesertRat1978

I was a founding member of the He-Man woman haters club in my early 20's. I gave up women for 2.5 years and would get all sanctimonious about it. However, growing up ruined this utopia. Not all women are bad and not all are good. They are imperfect just like men are.


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## Dogbert

That which we fear or don't understand we often demonized. Perhaps *some* married people, men and women, feel threatened by this thread and by single people in general. Perhaps because in the back of their minds they wonder IF these singles *may* actually be on the road to attaining true happiness. The happiness that they wish they could have as well.

Being happy and fulfilled is not a product of either being single or being married. It is a product of appreciating the blessings we are experiencing in the moment they are unfolding. So fear not those who embrace being single for they may end up showing others how to be happier individuals, even if they are married.


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## arbitrator

Dogbert said:


> That which we fear or don't understand we often demonized. Perhaps *some* married people, men and women, feel threatened by this thread and by single people in general. Perhaps because in the back of their minds they wonder IF these singles *may* actually be on the road to attaining true happiness. The happiness that they wish they could have as well.
> 
> Being happy and fulfilled is not a product of either being single or being married. It is a product of appreciating the blessings we are experiencing in the moment they are unfolding. So fear not those who embrace being single for they may end up showing others how to be happier individuals, even if they are married.


*If there was anyone that ought to feel like giving up, it is me! Two failed marriages, both due to the infidelity on the part of both wives, for their own secretive and selfish purposes. Don't think for a moment that it keeps running through my mind that I'm the common denominator here ~ that it was me who made them want other things that I wasn't supplying them as a husband, and to distance themselves from me, they found ways to break their solemn vows in dishonoring me as their H, and to covertly and illicitly honor the prurient wishes of others, as well as their very own carnal desires.

At times, I can't help but feel that I should just throw my hands up and not ever try to trust any other woman again! But I choose not to, knowing that while I am like a lot of other well-meaning guys who are in love with the prospects of falling into a deep, endearing, reciprocated love with a woman of magnanimous beauty and caring ~ the way that I feel that God largely intended it.

I could just cower from these bouts of failure and just resign myself to futility, but I choose not to, realizing that the odds are greatly with me that I will ultimately find true and lasting happiness with a woman who largely feels the same way about me, as I do for her!*


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## SurpriseMyself

Arbitrator - the best thing you can do is NOT to ask why your former wives cheated so much as ask yourself why you pick women like this. 

I've heard it said that under the right circumstances that anyone would cheat. I don't buy it. Sex and love are not like food. If you go without, you can leave and that should be what happens if your marriage cannot be salvaged. But to say that you must steal from the grocery store because you have no money when there's an ATM around the corner is selfishness and weakness of character. The thief steals either out of necessity or because they are the type of person who steals. You married the latter. That is the problem. 

Now, of course you should ask yourself how you will be in any future relationship you have. Be the best possible mate; but who you pick absolutely matters!


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## Wolf1974

SurpriseMyself said:


> Arbitrator - the best thing you can do is NOT to ask why your former wives cheated so much as ask yourself why you pick women like this.
> 
> I've heard it said that under the right circumstances that anyone would cheat. I don't buy it. Sex and love are not like food. If you go without, you can leave and that should be what happens if your marriage cannot be salvaged. But to say that you must steal from the grocery store because you have no money when there's an ATM around the corner is selfishness and weakness of character. The thief steals either out of necessity or because they are the type of person who steals. You married the latter. That is the problem.
> 
> Now, of course you should ask yourself how you will be in any future relationship you have. Be the best possible mate; but who you pick absolutely matters!


Unfortunately this premise also relies on knowing a person well enough to Make an informed decision about who they are. people lie all the time about who and what they really are. Really the only way to find out is to dig deep enough into someone's past but you know about how popular that is on this website :rofl:

Then even if they aren't lying some change overtime. So you started with one person and then they have a midlife change and you are left with a completly different person. 

At best realtionships are a crap shoot. I know the original post says giving up on the pursuit of women......I doubt that would ever happen. I love women way to much for that. But I am way more comfortable now In the idea of dating and no relationships than I ever have been.


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## SurpriseMyself

Wolf1974 said:


> Unfortunately this premise also relies on knowing a person well enough to Make an informed decision about who they are. people lie all the time about who and what they really are. Really the only way to find out is to dig deep enough into someone's past but you know about how popular that is on this website :rofl:
> 
> Then even if they aren't lying some change overtime. So you started with one person and then they have a midlife change and you are left with a completly different person.
> 
> At best realtionships are a crap shoot. I know the original post says giving up on the pursuit of women......I doubt that would ever happen. I love women way to much for that. But I am way more comfortable now In the idea of dating and no relationships than I ever have been.


I don't think people change over time, for the negative, so much as become more of who they really are.

I am friends with a now separated couple where the H cheated. The W says he changed, that she watched him become someone she didn't know. That he had a midlife crisis.

I will never tell her this, but I knew he was always capable. He liked to party, to smoke pot, to hang with the cool crowd. He was always uncomfortable getting "real" with anyone. All of those are signs that he was never a person who could truly be trusted to keep his marriage vows because he was always someone running away from things by running to other things. And eventually he ran away from his marriage by cheating.

Most of us who say the other person changed really never took a hard look at the person they were with in the first place. I know I'm guilty of that. Before we got married, we had a pre-wedding counseling session. The counselor asked us if there was anything either of us saw now that we thought could become a problem in our marriage. I said there was, and it was our inability to resolve conflict.

And look where I am now! I married him knowing then exactly what I know now, but I did it anyway. I have only me to blame for that.


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