# WS claims to be "Crystal clear" about wanting only me



## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Hello everyone,

I've been reading threads in this forum for nearly two weeks now and have decided to ask for some feedback about my WH of 26 years. 

DDay was mid-May and unfortunately, I discovered that the OW was a single 31-year-old teacher colleague of mine whom I had invited into our home on several occasions. Double betrayal laden a heavy dose of naivety. 

WH claims she kissed him on two different occasions (in our home while I was in the restroom no less), he was "intrigued", felt flattered that someone 20 years younger expressed interest and the rest is history. The affair lasted four months and the phone and text records indicated it was both an EA/PA. 

I kicked him out of the house and he has been living with his mother. All his relatives know, most of my colleagues know (including administrators to whom I have spoken directly, politely demanding the OW be moved to another building in the district so I don't have to see her), our two 20-something children know...in all, their affair has been outed. 

My WH and I have both begun IC and if I feel I can make the jump after working through the betrayal, may begin MC at some time in the future. I offer him no guarantees. He and I talk more now than we ever have and have read "After the Affair" as well as "His Needs, Her Needs". I can see where our marriage was vulnerable, but I do not take responsibility for his ultimate decision to commit adultery. My faith really has been the foundation upon which I can stand and endure this tragedy. 

The question I have for anyone who might be able/willing to answer is this. In all of the material I've read about WS, there seems to be a common thread about how they mourn the loss of the AP and all of the high chemistry. However, my WH staunchly and repeatedly states that he has no thoughts of her, does not miss her and thinks only of me. I've even told him that I believe he says this to protect me from further harm, but he insists that he is being 100% honest. Then my logical mind begins to ask, "What kind of person can flip switches like this and do I want to attempt to rebuild a marriage with someone who can flip switches so easily?" I have even told him this is a subject he needs to address in next week's IC session. 

I would love to hear anyone's thoughts about this as I can't find any reading to substantiate what he claims to feel, that it has become "crystal clear" in his mind that he wants me and only me. If only this clarity were present six months ago...

Thank you in advance for your candid thoughts.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

No one knows what is going on in his head. People are definitely capable of not becoming attached to an affair partner. It happens all the time. Maybe less than the other scenario, but I doubt it.

What kind of person does this? A normal person. Many people can compartmentalize different parts of their lives.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

You're asking the question I did. 

Did I mean so little to the wayward spouse, that they betrayed me for someone they didn't really care about? 

Has he cheated before? Are your suspicious he has?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I am a former wayward. Honestly, it is quite possible that he doesn't have feelings for her. Its not like he is suddenly turning feelings for her off. Its more likely that he never had any feelings for her in the first place. With that said I would judge him by his actions. I would think it would be hard to hide a broken heart. If he isn't justifying his actions to you and he is showing real remorse than its highly plausible that she meant nothing to him.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

I think men are better able to differentiate sex from emotion, but four months in, he had to feel something for this woman. He might be interpreting your asking him if he "loved" her, which he most likely didn't.

Perhaps in his mind, she's the cause of his problems now, so he is able to feel contempt for her. The way you described it - that she came on to him, he was flattered, etc. makes me think he is blame-shifting the affair onto her, and may be angry at her for it.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Awake1,
I asked, he said no, I don't believe so, but only he knows for certain. I want to believe, but won't at this time. 

ReformedHubby, 
Thank you for sharing. Your former WH insight is much appreciated. He "appears" remorseful, but given how I've been so easily duped by both of them, I don't fully trust my judgement, especially given it's only been a bit more than 7 weeks. I am just beginning to see through the fog. TBH, I really believe that time will reveal how genuine his remorse truly is. 

InlandTXMM,
That's my thinking...four months of heavy phone calls and texting point to EA. He did tell me that he professed love for her which only adds to my confusion. I don't sense that he has contempt for her. The blame-shifting you sense is probably more about my initial attempts to vilify her in my conversations with WS, given her very brazen behavior in my home. This OW stayed at my house on two occasions and even had the audacity to go to church with me the following morning. Quite frankly, I think she's a nutcase, and I am somewhat angry with myself for not recognizing it and with WH for not resisting her advances. Of course, I only know his side of the story and will have to weed through that to determine where I go and when...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

awake1 said:


> You're asking the question I did.
> 
> Did I mean so little to the wayward spouse, that* they betrayed me for someone they didn't really care about? *
> 
> Has he cheated before? Are your suspicious he has?


I... can I answer this? I hope so.

My AP was someone who was seriously flawed. And she was not, actually, a particularly nice person. But she still became my EA AP.

Maybe because I viewed her through an alcoholic haze? We were both drinking too much.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

MattMatt, 

Thank you for your response. I'm not sure how much alcohol was consumed by my WH or the OW during the A. I would venture to say not enough for him to view her through an alcoholic haze, as much as I'd like to believe that. WH did begin to drink more at home during A which I now recognize as a numbing agent and escape.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

GreenThumb said:


> MattMatt,
> 
> Thank you for your response. I'm not sure how much alcohol was consumed by my WH or the OW during the A. I would venture to say not enough for him to view her through an alcoholic haze, as much as I'd like to believe that. WH did begin to drink more at home during A which I now recognize as a numbing agent and escape.


Potted history: My wife cheated on me, I dealt with it by drinking lots of alcohol and hooked up an equally soused AP.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

I am a fisherman, and I have trolled a juicy morsel in front of a fish several times before it snapped up the bait........I think your husband saw a tasty morsel going by, and finally snapped it up.....

I am making no excuses, a bass dosn't take a vow to forsake all other nightcrawlers, he just does what comes natural.....

Your husband probably had no interest in having an affair, he was in a more or less good place, and made no effort to seek out other women....And then....

Here is a somewhat attractive, much younger woman. At first she hardy making a ripple on his subconscious, and POW...This little piece of "strange" makes an overt sexual move.......

OMG did that just happen? This MUCH younger little trick coming on to ME!!!! 

After this first contact, his mind was overwhelmed with........

Did that really happen?, She is so young, I shouldn't be going there, I'm going to throw her out, Stupid to even consider, Probably the last and only time this will ever,

...I've never even.....

And he makes a really STUPID decision......

If my son brought a date over, and when he and the wife were checking out his new Mustang, the GF walks up to my recliner and groped my junk....The same thought process would happen with me, or just about any man.....

The fly in the ointment is the decision he made......

Taken by surprise, a normally faithful husband makes that snap decision.......and exercised truly awful judgement....

Under the circumstances, could a married man, who had opportunity thrust into his face, take advantage of the situation????

Absolutely......

There was no courtship, no emotional void aching to be filled, no love letters, no sexting, no thought of a long term relationship....It was almost a reflex action, and now that it is over, it is over....

Men are wired like that, plant the seed and move on....

Now he has to deal with the horror of his bad decision. He is eaten up with guilt, remorse, and that nagging "How could this have happened to me" feeling...

You can believe him when he says he dosn't think about her, the "Switch" that was never tripped was the "I love you" switch for the other woman.....

If you are willing to consider R, this is a good thing. You will not be faced with the chore of getting a wandering spouse to "Un-love" the affair partner....

And while it is only "crooks remorse"...(The bad feelings caused by being caught) it is a real form of remorse, and the negative feelings it causes will be permanently transferred to the AP....

A year from now, seeing her walking toward him on the sidewalk will result in shock, fear, anxiety, and a total and rapid retreat on his part......

I hope you don't allow the little home wrecker to break up your marriage. She acted like a tramp, and got caught...She has been outed for the________ (insert word) she is, and being introduced to any ones husband in a social setting is a thing of the past....

Now you have to get through the pain of your husbands betrayal. He really screwed up, and needs to jump through some serious hoops with his IC, to root out why he crossed boundaries, and broke your trust......

You seem to be a very level headed person, with a good handle on what it will take to R, so get him busy fixing himself, Do what you need to do for yourself, and remember it is not your fault.....

Only you know for sure, but I think your husband and your marriage are worth fixing, and I am sure he will do anything to earn your forgiveness....

hope for the best
the woodchuck


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Its one thing to for a man to respond/approach another woman but not to give up everything for what amounts to a roll in the hay. He could easily be hating her now that its all hit the fan and reality has hit him between the eyes.

I don't doubt his sincerity but I would still poly him and ask about other affairs too.


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## jupiter13 (Jun 8, 2012)

My WS says he could care less if ow lived or died it was all about the sex. Do I believe not on your life.....if he loved me so much he would not have hurt me this way.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Woodchuck, 

Much of what you shared has entered my mind since DDay. I wish I could simply chalk it up to a man taking advantage of a "twisted tasty morsel", but the A's length and intensity of phone contact during make it difficult for me to comprehend he no longer has feelings for her. 

Chapparal, 

Is there a particular reason why you're recommending a poly or is it your opinion they should be standard fare?


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Jupiter, 

When I asked my WH if the A was about sex, his response was, "It took us a while to have sex." Thanks for THAT reassurance. I can rest so much easier NOW. In fact, he purchased birthday gifts for her prior to their PA beginning, so again, I am struggling with his telling me he has no feelings for her or doesn't think of her at all anymore. I worry that he has simply transferred his A feelings back to me now that the A is public. Again, time will tell and is needed for me to heal.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

I think reality is a powerful thing, and can clarify and polarize things for the wayward - and dispel the fog.

Personally, I did not mourn or miss my APs once the fog cleared (I had 3 overlapping EAs). It was like finally breaking an addiction.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

A woman kissing you by surprise an returning the kiss ONCE, is one thing, but an undoing affair has big flags for me.

I don't think he cares for the woman because she is young and nutty. 

Young and nutty is fun in he sack but not marriage material.

I'm sure my husband misses the crazy sex in crazy places with prostitutes but I don't think he misses the girls.

He wanted a stable home life with you and a crazy slu*ty girl on the side. A lot of guys and gals would like this situation.

I am curious how D-Day occurred. Did he or she confess and come clean or did you catch them?


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Rugs, 
I discovered he was having an affair purely by serendipity. He stayed at her place overnight, telling me he was out of town on business. I sensed he wasn't out of town on business, but didn't know where he was. The following day, someone mentioned seeing WH driving into work late when WH was supposed to be in a town four hours away for business meeting. I confronted him, he denied until he couldn't deny any longer. I didn't know who the OW at this time, but found out four days later when he "butt-dialed" me, leaving a voicemail for me that included a frantic conversation between my WH and the OW: "Did anyone follow you? Are you sure?" This conversation was prompted by the OW seeing me drive around her apartment complex just prior to my WH's arrival as I suspected it was her based upon her behaviors at work while working with her. Looking back, I'm glad I didn't see him pull in and confront them together as I think it would have been very ugly; I'm sure I would have said/done things I would have regretted.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

GreenThumb said:


> Jupiter,
> 
> When I asked my WH if the A was about sex, his response was, "It took us a while to have sex." Thanks for THAT reassurance. I can rest so much easier NOW. In fact, he purchased birthday gifts for her prior to their PA beginning, so again, I am struggling with his telling me he has no feelings for her or doesn't think of her at all anymore. I worry that he has simply transferred his A feelings back to me now that the A is public. Again, time will tell and is needed for me to heal.


Having a sweet young thing show an interest brings out courtship behavior....

A male of almost any species gifts the female to show he has enough vigor to give away food or prime nesting materials...

Bower birds build intricate structures with no purpose but to catch the attention of a female... Sweet talk, attentiveness, all are just a rather creaky older dude shifting into "player" mode...

Please be kind enough to not tell him how FOOLISH he looked doing it....

the woodchuck


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Woodchuck, 

Thank you for the chuckle, not something that comes easily these days. Something tells me your close to my WH's age.


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## canuckprincess (Mar 22, 2012)

GreenThumb said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've been reading threads in this forum for nearly two weeks now and have decided to ask for some feedback about my WH of 26 years.
> 
> ...


IMO it's one of two things, number 1 is he never truly loved his ap or number 2 he's lying! 
I've been on both sides of the fence and I've heard all the lies as both a bs and the ow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

I think if it hasn't already been done, a No Contact (NC) letter is in order here. It will serve a trifold purpose: 1) Observe his reaction via his willingness to do it; 2) Cue you into his frame of mind about her and what "they" really had via his thoughts on what is relevant to tell her, how he says it and his choice of words; 3) A "team" activity for both of you may help when you and he revise it and add/subtract anything irrelevant & actually sending it (certified mail) can help you feel comforted that she gets the message in black & white. 

1 & 2 will answer your questions. 3 is optional if you want to stay in the marriage and work it out after seeing 1& 2. 

Also, please read the "Welcome Newbies" thread by AlmostRecovered for details on the NC letter.


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## Flygirl (Apr 9, 2013)

GreenThumb said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've been reading threads in this forum for nearly two weeks now and have decided to ask for some feedback about my WH of 26 years.
> 
> ...


My husband is the same way except he denied ever having any sexual feelings about her at all. He says he could care less about her. He says he saw her as one of the guys. I don't believe him because if that was true, why hide her and keep her a secret? It really makes me angry when he says this because I would hate to think he betrayed our marriage, hurt me so bad and risked losing his family over someone he cares nothing about!!


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Calibre12 said:


> I think if it hasn't already been done, a No Contact (NC) letter is in order here. It will serve a trifold purpose: 1) Observe his reaction via his willingness to do it; 2) Cue you into his frame of mind about her and what "they" really had via his thoughts on what is relevant to tell her, how he says it and his choice of words; 3) A "team" activity for both of you may help when you and he revise it and add/subtract anything irrelevant & actually sending it (certified mail) can help you feel comforted that she gets the message in black & white.
> 
> 1 & 2 will answer your questions. 3 is optional if you want to stay in the marriage and work it out after seeing 1& 2.
> 
> Also, please read the "Welcome Newbies" thread by AlmostRecovered for details on the NC letter.


Calibre, 

I have mentioned a NC letter to WH and he told me he would do it. My reasoning was to clarify in my mind that the A is def over because when I asked how it ended, he claims it was mutual and both he and the OW knew the relationship was over even before I discovered it. I also wanted the OW to get the clear message that he was committed to marriage. 

Your other points are well-taken and I am definitely going to pursue this with WH tomorrow. I will look for AR's thread for guidance. 

Thank you.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

GreenThumb said:


> Jupiter,
> 
> When I asked my WH if the A was about sex, his response was, "It took us a while to have sex." Thanks for THAT reassurance. I can rest so much easier NOW. In fact, he purchased birthday gifts for her prior to their PA beginning, so again, I am struggling with his telling me he has no feelings for her or doesn't think of her at all anymore. I worry that he has simply transferred his A feelings back to me now that the A is public. Again, time will tell and is needed for me to heal.


I still don't think he had feelings for her, but if he did those where gone pretty much the moment he was found out. A lot of men will tell there AP pretty much what they want to hear during an affair. 

His behavior after getting found out isn't consistent with someone who has an emotional attachment with the OW. If you read other posts on here you will see that a lot of wayward spouses get super depressed or downright nasty with their spouses when they get exposed. They are upset because they can't be with their "one true love". They rewrite the history of their relationships with their spouses. All of a sudden they were never happy because you didn't do bla, bla, bla.

The affair fog is nasty stuff, but based on your posts I don't think he is in it. I think he is in throw the other woman under the bus mode, because he wants a chance to reconcile. This is usually what happens when men in affairs get exposed.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Btw, do you know a cheateville.com? Perhaps the sweet young thing that likes other women's husbands should have a spot up there?


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

Just to answer your original question, it is very possible for someone to have an affair with no real attachment. My WW carried on for over a year with her AP and told me that while she really liked him, she had no real feelings for him. I did not believe this for one minute at first. But the more we talked and the more questions I asked, the more I became convinced she is telling the truth. She just didn't do things that people "in love" do. The OM was way younger than my WW and it was a huge boost for her ego. She easily broke off the affair when she thought I was suspecting something and the OM has no problem with this, he said "he didn't want any drama". This sort of thing is even more common for men who are much more prone to separating sex from love.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> Btw, do you know a cheateville.com? Perhaps the sweet young thing that likes other women's husbands should have a spot up there?


Shaggy, 

As tempting as this sounds, I really don't want to give her any more energy than my mind already does. I've just gotten over nearly constant obsessive thoughts of them together, although I can't seem to completely shut those off in my dreams and waking hours yet. 

The other aspect that prevents me from posting to Cheaterville.com is the possibility that she would come after me for harassment. It sickens me that she's a teacher who should be a role model, one who regularly texted my WH during paid instructional periods. However, I am maintaining my professional demeanor and handling this with as much class as I can muster. I have fought my impulses to march into school board meetings with phone records as I feel it would only highlight the scorned wife aspect of the whole scenario. My focus is on me, my marriage and possible reconciliation with WH, not the OW for whom I have no personal or professional respect. I have placed her fate at the feet of my God.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Woodchuck said:


> Having a sweet young thing show an interest brings out courtship behavior....
> 
> A male of almost any species gifts the female to show he has enough vigor to give away food or prime nesting materials...
> 
> ...


It's right, it's entirely possible he didn't/doesn't have real feelings for her. I admit I put myself in roleplaying mode if opportunity arised. You can like "something" and drop it from your mind in a nanosecond.
I don't agree with the last line tough. He must be very aware of the foolishness of his behavior.

Unless OW tries to relink the contact I see no need for a NC letter just now. You both can draft and send a very clear one in case she fishes.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

HarryDoyle said:


> Just to answer your original question, it is very possible for someone to have an affair with no real attachment. My WW carried on for over a year with her AP and told me that while she really liked him, she had no real feelings for him. I did not believe this for one minute at first. But the more we talked and the more questions I asked, the more I became convinced she is telling the truth. She just didn't do things that people "in love" do. The OM was way younger than my WW and it was a huge boost for her ego. She easily broke off the affair when she thought I was suspecting something and the OM has no problem with this, he said "he didn't want any drama". This sort of thing is even more common for men who are much more prone to separating sex from love.


Harry, 
One thing my WH has told me that does bring me SOME comfort is that the A was more about how she made him feel rather than how he felt about her. This coupled with the age difference (as you described) points to ego-stroking. I just become frustrated with the idea that I have been married to a man who fell so easily just for a "feel good" when he could have approached me with his needs. SO frustrating that I have to go through all of this muck because he couldn't communicate with me and keep himself in check.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Acabado said:


> It's right, it's entirely possible he didn't/doesn't have real feelings for her. I admit I put myself in roleplaying mode if opportunity arised. You can like "something" and drop it from your mind in a nanosecond.
> I don't agree with the last line tough. He must be very aware of the foolishness of his behavior.
> 
> Unless OW tries to relink the contact I see no need for a NC letter just now. You both can draft and send a very clear one in case she fishes.


Acabado, 

I haven't had to point out his foolish behavior; he has acknowledged it himself. 

He has drafted a NC letter which he will share with me later today. All records indicate she has not tried to contact him, but her irrate father did call my WH's place of employment about two weeks ago, asking for the man who had an affair with his daughter (he apparently didn't have his name) threatening to come there and "discuss" the A. I think OW's family didn't know until that time and daddy didn't have the whole story. What was he trying to do...defend her honor? :rofl: My WH notified me of this situation and I offered to and did leave a voicemail for the OW at that time since my WH agreed to have no contact with her. I stated that I was giving her the courtesy of letting her know that daddy would have to deal with police should he appear to threaten WH at his place of employment. I also told her that she had a responsibility to tell daddy her role in the A, not just my WH. Apparently, daddy came to his senses as he hasn't been seen or heard from again. My WH is fortunate that his employer took these precautionary measures for him and his fellow employees. 

I had asked WH to write NC letter several weeks ago, and I feel that it will clearly communicate to her what WH's intentions are. I can't lie...I am somewhat anxious to see what he's written and will have to steel myself against "reading into" things, as is my analytic nature. 

Thank you for your feedback. I can't tell everyone how much TAM members' support means at this most challenging time in my life!


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## jupiter13 (Jun 8, 2012)

I need to expose this. My WH not only had this OW 20 years younger but her husband was there to watch since he is unable to maintain erection to satisfy his wife. This I am told. There was also drug use going on. It is something these people do. So while my WH is getting a ego-boost and his need for sex met, he is also doing drugs with them. I am not getting my needs met at all. So does that mean if I should find myself in a similar situation its OK to indulge. It would be OK since we are not in love there are no emotional ties and not going to be a replacement for my marriage? Knowing I would be breaking my marriage vows and hurting my partner but that means nothing since this opportunity has presented itself. Besides I could be mad at my partner at the moment so what the heck? In our business and the meeting of so many various people everyday how do you know it will not continue with someone else? WH was the one to expose what was going on but he did so while on drugs and violence. He says he is so very sorry and will never happen again BUT......... once the deceptive behavior is totally exposed there are other times I have seen the same thing even when he claims this is the one and only time.


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## canuckprincess (Mar 22, 2012)

GreenThumb said:


> Calibre,
> 
> I have mentioned a NC letter to WH and he told me he would do it. My reasoning was to clarify in my mind that the A is def over because when I asked how it ended, he claims it was mutual and both he and the OW knew the relationship was over even before I discovered it. I also wanted the OW to get the clear message that he was committed to marriage.
> 
> ...


I'm going to play devils advocate, really what good does a NC letter serve. What's to stop a ws from telling the om or ow to ignore the letter and that he or she was forced to send it. I'm sorry but a piece of paper or an email can't stop an affair if the parties involved want to continue the affair. You'd be surprised how easy it is to continue an affair if you really want it. My neighbour has been with a mm and dday was 5 months ago, he calls the ow on his way to and from work they texted during the day and there have been a few times when his wife was asleep he has left the house to meet up with his ow. I don't know the wife at all but it is quite possible that she has chosen to ignore the signs and is content with him just coming home to her. Or he is just the worlds greatest manipulator. I know it's none of my business so that's why I would never tell his wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

GreenThumb said:


> Shaggy,
> 
> As tempting as this sounds, I really don't want to give her any more energy than my mind already does. I've just gotten over nearly constant obsessive thoughts of them together, although I can't seem to completely shut those off in my dreams and waking hours yet.
> 
> *The other aspect that prevents me from posting to Cheaterville.com is the possibility that she would come after me for harassment.* It sickens me that she's a teacher who should be a role model, one who regularly texted my WH during paid instructional periods. However, I am maintaining my professional demeanor and handling this with as much class as I can muster. I have fought my impulses to march into school board meetings with phone records as I feel it would only highlight the scorned wife aspect of the whole scenario. My focus is on me, my marriage and possible reconciliation with WH, not the OW for whom I have no personal or professional respect. I have placed her fate at the feet of my God.


If you have proof, what can she do? Truth is the ultimate defense. Stick to the facts that you can prove. Sure she can try and sue you, but then SHE would have to go into a courtroom and explain why you would do something like that. 
Actually, come to to think of it, it would be a GREAT test to see where your WH's loyalties lie. If she were to sue, and he throws her under the bus in court, well... there's your answer. If not... there's your answer.


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## canuckprincess (Mar 22, 2012)

Unless her affair happened while on work time what right does the school board have. There is no employment laws preventing her from engaging in a sexual relationship with a man, is there? 
Is the affair right, well no of course not but it still has nothing to do with her employment. Also would you like your wh's employer to know what a low life he is for stepping out on his wife, I would think not. So you need to hold your cheating spouse to at least the same level of standard you expect from a stranger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

canuckprincess said:


> I'm going to play devils advocate, really what good does a NC letter serve. What's to stop a ws from telling the om or ow to ignore the letter and that he or she was forced to send it. I'm sorry but a piece of paper or an email can't stop an affair if the parties involved want to continue the affair. You'd be surprised how easy it is to continue an affair if you really want it. My neighbour has been with a mm and dday was 5 months ago, he calls the ow on his way to and from work they texted during the day and there have been a few times when his wife was asleep he has left the house to meet up with his ow. I don't know the wife at all but it is quite possible that she has chosen to ignore the signs and is content with him just coming home to her. Or he is just the worlds greatest manipulator. I know it's none of my business so that's why I would never tell his wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Canuck, 

Yes, I know that the NC letter will not prevent any WS from cheating if he/she has his/her mind set upon it. I have even told my husband that despite all the transparency he has offered, I know that if he still wanted to continue any A, he would find a way. With that said, I also told him that I wouldn't allow myself to be hurt or willing to reconcile EVER AGAIN should he fail again with ANY AP; "Lawyer up" would be my first and only response and I would take him for everything I possibly could. I am an understanding person, but I refuse to be made a fool by anyone more than once.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

canuckprincess said:


> Unless her affair happened while on work time what right does the school board have. There is no employment laws preventing her from engaging in a sexual relationship with a man, is there?
> Is the affair right, well no of course not but it still has nothing to do with her employment. Also would you like your wh's employer to know what a low life he is for stepping out on his wife, I would think not. So you need to hold your cheating spouse to at least the same level of standard you expect from a stranger.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually schools can and do dismiss people of bad moral character.

There was a teacher fired in Oxnard CA for having in her past made a perfectly legal and legit porn movie under a stage name. She still got fired


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> Actually schools can and do dismiss people of bad moral character.
> 
> There was a teacher fired in Oxnard CA for having in her past made a perfectly legal and legit porn movie under a stage name. She still got fired


Shaggy, 

I tried the violation of school board ethics/questionable moral character approach with super, but district attorney did not feel that there were grounds for dismissal. The district is also not wanting to make a big production of this scenario which I understand to SOME degree, but this has been a delicate balance between my role as a scorned wife/colleague (making what she's done known to the appropriate parties) and maintaining my professional reputation in the district and community.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

jupiter13 said:


> I need to expose this. My WH not only had this OW 20 years younger but her husband was there to watch since he is unable to maintain erection to satisfy his wife. This I am told. There was also drug use going on. It is something these people do. So while my WH is getting a ego-boost and his need for sex met, he is also doing drugs with them. I am not getting my needs met at all. So does that mean if I should find myself in a similar situation its OK to indulge. It would be OK since we are not in love there are no emotional ties and not going to be a replacement for my marriage? Knowing I would be breaking my marriage vows and hurting my partner but that means nothing since this opportunity has presented itself. Besides I could be mad at my partner at the moment so what the heck? In our business and the meeting of so many various people everyday how do you know it will not continue with someone else? WH was the one to expose what was going on but he did so while on drugs and violence. He says he is so very sorry and will never happen again BUT......... once the deceptive behavior is totally exposed there are other times I have seen the same thing even when he claims this is the one and only time.


Jupiter, 

What a complicated scenario and I am so sorry that you have had to endure this. I don't know if you're a person of faith, but I will pray for you and your family. 
I hate how our minds are DVRs that, once deception has been revealed, rewind to previously untainted scenarios; it seems that ANY scenario can then become suspect. It's such a vicious cycle, one which we will endure whether or not we reconcile with the WS.


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## artlady (Jul 17, 2011)

Answering your original question as a BS two-and-a-half years down the line: I can see how you'd be questioning it right now and wondering how he could think nothing of her and only about you. I certainly felt that way after discovering my H's A, thinking that he'd been in love with her, was still thinking about her all the time, etc. BUT, now, because I can look back at it logically, he was only in love with me and wanted only to make things right between us again (his PA had ended a month before I found out, but there was still contact-- she was a nutcase too, and it was hard for him to break the communications off. After I found out, *I* took care of that!). His behavior was only of a man who was in love with his wife again.

If he's sorry, if he's doing everything to make things right between you two again, and if he's abiding NC, then I would believe him. Although there are many variables, sometimes it's just simply the shock of being discovered and outed that changes the WS's mindset about their AP.

Good luck to you-- I mean it. It's a hard road of recovery, but it can be done. I hope your husband continues to be remorseful.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

jupiter13 said:


> I need to expose this. My WH not only had this OW 20 years younger but her husband was there to watch since he is unable to maintain erection to satisfy his wife. This I am told. There was also drug use going on. It is something these people do. So while my WH is getting a ego-boost and his need for sex met, he is also doing drugs with them. I am not getting my needs met at all. So does that mean if I should find myself in a similar situation its OK to indulge. It would be OK since we are not in love there are no emotional ties and not going to be a replacement for my marriage? Knowing I would be breaking my marriage vows and hurting my partner but that means nothing since this opportunity has presented itself. Besides I could be mad at my partner at the moment so what the heck? In our business and the meeting of so many various people everyday how do you know it will not continue with someone else? WH was the one to expose what was going on but he did so while on drugs and violence. He says he is so very sorry and will never happen again BUT......... once the deceptive behavior is totally exposed there are other times I have seen the same thing even when he claims this is the one and only time.


No worth the dirt on your shoes - you deserve better.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

artlady said:


> Answering your original question as a BS two-and-a-half years down the line: I can see how you'd be questioning it right now and wondering how he could think nothing of her and only about you. I certainly felt that way after discovering my H's A, thinking that he'd been in love with her, was still thinking about her all the time, etc. BUT, now, because I can look back at it logically, he was only in love with me and wanted only to make things right between us again (his PA had ended a month before I found out, but there was still contact-- she was a nutcase too, and it was hard for him to break the communications off. After I found out, *I* took care of that!). His behavior was only of a man who was in love with his wife again.
> 
> If he's sorry, if he's doing everything to make things right between you two again, and if he's abiding NC, then I would believe him. Although there are many variables, sometimes it's just simply the shock of being discovered and outed that changes the WS's mindset about their AP.
> 
> Good luck to you-- I mean it. It's a hard road of recovery, but it can be done. I hope your husband continues to be remorseful.


ArtLady, 
Thank you for your kind, reassuring words. I am guarded at best and as you know, when you are in that place, it's hard to determine where you are much less where the WS is. 

We spent some time together yesterday and while he was mowing the grass, I went through his car to be sure he discarded a CD the OW had given him as a gift. When we were talking later, he started to cry, telling me how awful he feels that he's caused me so much pain and to think and act in these ways. I want to believe him, but I'll be damned if I'll let him or anyone else hurt me again. I guess that's where I am right now and I need to determine if I'm willing to be in a relationship where I am compelled to be on guard or turn him loose and move on. I'm hoping that through IC I can make a decision that's not only logical, but best for me (and potentially him). 
Some days it feels like it would be so much easier to walk away, but other days I think about all of the good years we've had together and the man he was before "the fall". 

I wish you and your H continued success in your marriage.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

canuckprincess said:


> Unless her affair happened while on work time what right does the school board have. There is no employment laws preventing her from engaging in a sexual relationship with a man, is there?
> Is the affair right, well no of course not but it still has nothing to do with her employment. Also would you like your wh's employer to know what a low life he is for stepping out on his wife, I would think not. So you need to hold your cheating spouse to at least the same level of standard you expect from a stranger.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Puleeez cp - You shouldn't be so worried about her holding her husband to the same standard as a stranger. Every profession has standards and codes of ethics...GreenThumb, believe me, if you look at them closely, you will be able to pin her down on at least one of them. Let's put it this way, you invited her into your home as a dear colleague but she felt it was an invitation to your husband, the rooms in your house etc...I'd say she has no standards nor boundaries and unless it's not part of the code of ethics for college employees, it's okay for her to have sexual relationships with college students, in which case, whoever is paying their tuition fees, is entitled to a refund, because that type of behavior is not offered as a class on any campus I know: "How To Not Know What A Boundary Is" or "How to Murder Someone's Marriage", or "Immediate Gratification 101" - Those are available off campus and easily on the internet.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Green Thumb

Your answers that you want concerning your husband are going to come like you mentioned several times; ONLY TIME WILL TELL!

Your pain is not going away in a few weeks or a few months. However, it can get better each month depending on your actions. You probably are in desperate need of security and someone to trust for that. *Your emotional health needs to be stabilized and you will need to have someone you can trust to help you stabilize.*

Right now your husband is not that person. I hope that you have friends and family that can help you. I also know that you are going to have to stretch your faith in order to get through this in an easier fashion. When I was in your shoes I was driven to turn to my much neglected faith in order to get some stability. *I decide that I was going to put more effort into building my faith and trusting in the stability of my God rather than depend on any human especially my spouse*.

I am not saying that you cannot rebuild your marriage, you and your husband can. For me it was a gamble to allow myself to put all my faith, trust, and stability in my spouse. In the years that have followed I have found God to be faithful to His promises every time I did my part. Although my spouse improved substantially she did not have the power or ability to rebuild me within myself. *I think I made a mistake by thinking that people can build my most inter strengths*. We have many years of R but my security and trust and strength comes from God’s help. The vast majority of your inter strength will come from you and God. If I do my part I know that God is the only one that can and will always fulfill His promises.

I am not saying that we do not need other people it is just that people cannot always be trusted to have your best interest at heart nor always have the ability and power to deliver every time.

Do not have revenge for your husband even though you are probably very tempted. If he is a good man then he will suffer enough by himself. *Right now concentrate on you being built up as your top priority and if you have something left you can help your husband if you desire*. Your husband is the only one that can make the biggest difference in his recovery and you should not sacrifice your rebuilding to do something for him that he is mostly responsible for. This is not being vengeful it is just right for now.


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## artlady (Jul 17, 2011)

> ArtLady,
> Thank you for your kind, reassuring words. I am guarded at best and as you know, when you are in that place, it's hard to determine where you are much less where the WS is.
> 
> We spent some time together yesterday and while he was mowing the grass, I went through his car to be sure he discarded a CD the OW had given him as a gift. When we were talking later, he started to cry, telling me how awful he feels that he's caused me so much pain and to think and act in these ways. I want to believe him, but I'll be damned if I'll let him or anyone else hurt me again. I guess that's where I am right now and I need to determine if I'm willing to be in a relationship where I am compelled to be on guard or turn him loose and move on. I'm hoping that through IC I can make a decision that's not only logical, but best for me (and potentially him).
> ...


Thank you. We're doing really well-- just passed 24 years together (21 married).

The way you're feeling, your thoughts, are exactly the way I felt for a long time. And I also threw out everything associated with her, including pictures from when they were teenagers-- ripped them up into tiny bits and burned them. You're going to be on guard for quite a while-- you just don't want to be hurt again, especially by someone you love so much (and thought loved you), but it does lessen, but that really depends on how he acts. My husband was remorseful, completely sorry, transparent-- I have to be truthful and say that it took awhile to get the whole truth out of him, but that was out of his fear of losing me (no excuse, he knows now!). And we kicked that sk**k out of our lives, while building a much better marriage for ourselves. It's a LOT of work. It's natural to feel like you want to run away and just give up-- I did, many times-- but I guess you just have to come to the point as many do of which life feels better for you.

As others have said, it's going to take a lot of time. You're going to go through a lot of emotions; I'm sure you already have. It took me a little over two years to say with 100% certainty "I trust you" and "I forgive you" to my H. Regretfully, I can't wipe that period or those events out of our lives. But I decided that the great marriage I got after our separation, and all our history together, was worth it.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

artlady said:


> Thank you. We're doing really well-- just passed 24 years together (21 married).
> 
> The way you're feeling, your thoughts, are exactly the way I felt for a long time. And I also threw out everything associated with her, including pictures from when they were teenagers-- ripped them up into tiny bits and burned them. You're going to be on guard for quite a while-- you just don't want to be hurt again, especially by someone you love so much (and thought loved you), but it does lessen, but that really depends on how he acts. My husband was remorseful, completely sorry, transparent-- I have to be truthful and say that it took awhile to get the whole truth out of him, but that was out of his fear of losing me (no excuse, he knows now!). And we kicked that sk**k out of our lives, while building a much better marriage for ourselves. It's a LOT of work. It's natural to feel like you want to run away and just give up-- I did, many times-- but I guess you just have to come to the point as many do of which life feels better for you.
> 
> As others have said, it's going to take a lot of time. You're going to go through a lot of emotions; I'm sure you already have. It took me a little over two years to say with 100% certainty "I trust you" and "I forgive you" to my H. Regretfully, I can't wipe that period or those events out of our lives. But I decided that the great marriage I got after our separation, and all our history together, was worth it.


ArtLady, 

If you don't mind my asking, how long were you separated?


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> Green Thumb
> 
> Your answers that you want concerning your husband are going to come like you mentioned several times; ONLY TIME WILL TELL!
> 
> ...


Mr. Blunt, 

Thank you for your post. Yes, I do have people around me who offer support. My daughter is home from college right now and I have neighbors, colleagues and a few close friends with whom I can talk and spend time. It's funny who fidelity really limits your conversation topics: "How ARE you?" "If there's anything I can do, please let me know", "If you ever need to talk, don't hesitate to call me". Everyone is well-intentioned, but both they and I know there's not much they can do to alleviate this pain other than lend an ear or a shoulder on which to cry when I need it. What I DON'T want to do is talk about the affair with people because then I feel like I'm taking huge backwards strides. That's where my faith comes in. I do turn to my God in moments of frustration, despair, anger, and hope. I know He is the key to my seeing and staying the "right" course. 

Thank you for you kind words...I truly appreciate them.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Alright...I am compelled to share a recent "incident" with all of you since you've been a wonderful support group for me over the past week. 

*Disclaimer: Please don't think me some sort of freak. 
*

Like many of you who have experienced infidelity, I've done a lot of praying, asking Him for clarity, grace, vision, patience, and "signs" to determine my eventual course of action. I have extended periods of "silent time" each day where I "listen" for God's voice. Recently, my mother (who has "visions" of people she knows from time to time) told me that my deceased grandmother intended to pay me a "visit" some time soon. 

This morning at ~ 5 a.m., my dog and I awoke to a rather impressive and scary thud coming from somewhere in my bedroom/master bath. Warily getting out of bed (and half tempted to grab my 9mm for which I will shortly be taking CCW training), I investigated only to discover that my wedding dress box and wedding shoes had fallen from the top shelf of the bedroom closet. The dress and shoes have been there for 16 years and the last time I touched them was last summer when I was doing some organizing. 

So...now I'm left with interpreting what I think is an impressive "sign". My immediate thoughts were that my WH had established contact or with the OW at that moment. WH sent me a pic from his bedroom where he's staying with his mother within minutes as he is an early riser. Another thought is that I should consider my marriage as a whole, that the falling dress and shoes was a sign to consider the entire marriage.

If you think I'm crazy, just ignore the post. If not, I'd love to hear your thoughts! :scratchhead:


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## artlady (Jul 17, 2011)

> ArtLady,
> 
> If you don't mind my asking, how long were you separated?


A little over 10 weeks. In the scheme of things, it isn't that long, but it felt a lot longer than that (especially since we'd been together 21 years at that point), and he moved almost a thousand miles away. He definitely had a midlife crisis, so the leaving didn't completely have to do with me and our marriage. Funny thing was, the morning I woke up and told myself I was done, he wasn't going to dictate my feelings or emotions anymore, he called me and apologized (for REAL), and asked me to go back to the town we'd lived in to surprise our daughters for Christmas. Go figure.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

GreenThumb said:


> Alright...I am compelled to share a recent "incident" with all of you since you've been a wonderful support group for me over the past week.
> 
> *Disclaimer: Please don't think me some sort of freak.
> *
> ...


Don't ever ignore signs given to you after serious prayer. 

I always ask God to give me a big red neon arrow to point to the signs he gives me. 

I can't interpret your sign, but I see it as one.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Alright...I am compelled to share a recent "incident" with all of you since you've been a wonderful support group for me over the past week.
> 
> Disclaimer: Please don't think me some sort of freak.
> 
> ...




You are not some sort of a freak!

You are at a very difficult crossroad. Do I act on my immediate thoughts or do I go with the actions I have seen so far? *My way of thinking is that if God is going to lead me he is not going to beat around the bush and leave you guessing.* I am not saying that your ‘Sign” is not from God it is just that my life has not experienced that sort of direction from God. I would not be surprised if your husband was prompted to send you that pic as God knows you are suffering and needed relief, perhaps an answer to your prayer.

First I would like to recap. Your husband has demonstrated remorsefulness, he has cut off all communications with the OW, he has written a no contact letter, he has been transparent, he has cried about the A, his words are that he wants only you, etc.

*So far it appears to me he is doing pretty good considering that he has committed the mother of all marriage breakers*. At this point it appears that he is sincere. I am not soft peddling his failure as a man, a Christian, and as a husband and wife; his failure is HUGE!

However, when I was in your shoes at this point I looked to my life’s guide (Scriptures) and to those people that could help me with fully understand that guide and help me to follow the right path. I found that that the first order of business for me was for me to put aside all my own thoughts that were contrary to the scriptures. So what did I find in the scriptures?

*I found that I needed to make God number one and realized that I had committed infidelity to God.* I had not made him number one I had several of my interests as number one. Then I got a clear sign from God about my actions in regards to my spouse. *God was very direct and spoke through the scriptures and said *

* Matthew 6:15
New International Version (NIV)
15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.*

*That is very clear sign to me*; I just did not want to do it. Don’t take that wrong I am not saying that there are no consequences for him. Also it is very important to get the right concept of forgiveness and that may take a lot of counseling and study. Here below is just the tip of the iceberg



> *Steps to Forgiving Others *
> 1. Understand that forgiveness is not
> * Justifying, understanding, or explaining why the person acted toward you as he or she did.
> * Just forgetting about the offense and trusting time to take care of it.
> ...


For me cancellation of the debt does not mean you are to be gullible and put full trust in them. It just means that I am not going to hold the betrayal as a condemnation over their head. By doing this I am releasing myself from bitterness and revenge and progressing towards being rewarded.

1.	Hebrews 11:6 
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a *rewarder* of those who diligently seek Him.


Green Thumb
I cannot interpret the “sign” that you mentioned, I am just pointing out to you what I found to be exactly what I found to be true in my case. The scriptures were very helpful and very direct without any confusion. For me the scriptures are God’s words to me on how to get into a right relationship with Him. *When I am in a right relationship with Him then I can handle the hurts and will be all right with or without my spouse.

I can not change my spouse I can only change me!
*


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

DT and Mr. Blunt, 

I meant to close my last "incident" posting with "I know that this sign, if that's what I take it to be, is not the pivotal point upon which I can make a decision". It was just too strange and the fact that it was my wedding attire was too big to ignore. 

Blunt, 

I understand all that you have shared and completely agree. Right now, WH and I are talking heavily about faith as he has agnostic for quite some time. This was always a sorrow I carried in my heart during the last 10-15 years of our marriage. I attended church with my children, taught religious classes and was a relatively active member of the church for years without him by my side. Alone, I am strong in my faith and will continue to nurture/rely upon my relationship with Him to help me get to the other side, with or without my WH. WH is going to church now and is meeting with a priest tomorrow for guidance. What I don't want though is a WH who is taking on a spiritual life because he feels it's what I want, rather than be self-motivated. I need him (or any other SO in my life from this point forward) to share some type of faith life with me. Thus, I desire more than anything that my WH's reach for a faith life to be genuine; he says it is, but I know that again...time will tell. Whoever thought that 8 weeks could feel like eternity?

Thank you again for sharing the scripture and your faith-based perspective. My priest is coming to the house this week to bless (in my mind, more like cleanse) the house and provide me with some scripture for meditation and prayer.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

artlady said:


> A little over 10 weeks. In the scheme of things, it isn't that long, but it felt a lot longer than that (especially since we'd been together 21 years at that point), and he moved almost a thousand miles away. He definitely had a midlife crisis, so the leaving didn't completely have to do with me and our marriage. Funny thing was, the morning I woke up and told myself I was done, he wasn't going to dictate my feelings or emotions anymore, he called me and apologized (for REAL), and asked me to go back to the town we'd lived in to surprise our daughters for Christmas. Go figure.


ArtLady, 

My WH has been out of the house for 8 weeks and I will not allow him to return to the house until at least mid August since my daughter is home from college and is not ready to see or talk to him yet. I have to honor her feelings as I know my children will process this in very different ways than me; she is seeing a counselor to help her through this mess. Monitoring from a distance feels darn near impossible.

I would imagine that after WH has a few IC sessions under his belt and continues to show genuine remorse, we'll approach the joint MC and moving back into the house. 

I never fully appreciated the saying, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" until now....

Thank you for your support and feedback.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

GreenThumb said:


> Canuck,
> 
> Yes, I know that the NC letter will not prevent any WS from cheating if he/she has his/her mind set upon it. I have even told my husband that despite all the transparency he has offered, I know that if he still wanted to continue any A, he would find a way. With that said, I also told him that I wouldn't allow myself to be hurt or willing to reconcile EVER AGAIN should he fail again with ANY AP; "Lawyer up" would be my first and only response and I would take him for everything I possibly could. I am an understanding person, but I refuse to be made a fool by anyone more than once.


I'm in a very similar situation and I agree 100% with your insights. ... Do you feel you are giving your WS a pass when you maintain, "Betray me again and the gloves come off"? I discovered a 12 month EA/PA by complete accident. I have the responsibility to insist both my WS and I engage in IC to gain an understanding into our respective roles in the EA/PA. A little MC to work through the resentments and miscommunications can come later. If not, why would I not expect a repeat in the future? 

I offer a very fragile trust to my WS and while I realize my vulnerability, I simply will not remain in any relationship where I have to be a watchdog. You are at a point now where you may be considering vengeance vs. compassion. Only you can decide the right course. Please take the time and space you need for gentle self-care.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Several comments:

- Your gut told you something was up when your wedding paraphernalia suddenly fell from its perch. You thought perhaps he was in touch with her. Are you monitoring as best you can?

- I do, in fact, think that it's very possible for him to have snapped out of his infatuation once he was busted. The thing is that this is often what happens with serial cheaters. This is why I would do some real digging about the past. Are you sure this is a one-time thing? I would agree that a poly is a good idea. They're not wonderfully reliable, but they have a way of inducing spontaneous confessions.

- You sound strong and on the fence. This is a good position to take, in my opinion. You need to be in control of this situation and he needs to have the consequences clearly spelled out by you, i.e., the marriage could be over because of his betrayal of you.

- I think a big 'A' for the OW, who in fact is quite a brazen lady, is not a bad idea. cheaterville.com is a great choice & is not an issue for you if you just stick to the facts. Put her up there with a dry, factual recitation of what she did with your husband. She deserves to be named and shamed.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Several comments:
> 
> - Your gut told you something was up when your wedding paraphernalia suddenly fell from its perch. You thought perhaps he was in touch with her. Are you monitoring as best you can?
> 
> ...


alte Dame,

-I can only monitor his phone calls and texts monthly because it is a corporate cell phone. His only computer is a company laptop which I cannot place a keylogger on for security/privacy reasons. Since he's living with his mother at this time and we see each other ~ two to three times a week, the only monitoring I can do is checking his cell when we visit. I have his car for the next 24, and I'm giving serious thought to purchasing and placing a VAR in it. I jokingly told him that if/when I fully commit to rebuilding marriage that I would have him microchipped like my dog. Of course, his response was, "If that's what I need to to, I'll do it." Think I could convince my vet to slip one under his skin? :rofl:

-In looking at his behavior over our 26 years together, I can honestly say that I think this was his only A. He never worked late, went out with friends or engaged in any solo hobbies that I didn't/couldn't verify. I won't rule a future poly out, but I'm not looking to do that at this time. 

-He clearly knows that I am on the fence and that I need time, total cooperation, and continued remorseful support to make any decision. He is not a patient man, so this will prove to be a true test for him. Again, time will tell. If he can't make trip with me, I know it's God will and I'm better off without him. 

-I haven't ruled out cheaterville.com for the OW, but I am still hesitant for reasons I previously stated. One of the reasons I invited her into my home in the first place was because she was having what she described as a very difficult time coming out of a long-term relationship that turned bitter. Her BF wouldn't commit to marrying her. I have a sneaking suspicion that her relationship became bitter because she has exhibited this brazen, sexy vixen behavior before. Of course, I can't verify it, I don't want to and I'm not giving her any more energy than what she's exacted already. Whatever information I get about her before, during or after the A will literally need to fall in my lap because she is dead to me and I pray to my WH. 

Thank you for your feedback. The collective "been there, done that" TAM experience is so invaluable to me.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Jung_admirer said:


> I'm in a very similar situation and I agree 100% with your insights. ... Do you feel you are giving your WS a pass when you maintain, "Betray me again and the gloves come off"? I discovered a 12 month EA/PA by complete accident. I have the responsibility to insist both my WS and I engage in IC to gain an understanding into our respective roles in the EA/PA. A little MC to work through the resentments and miscommunications can come later. If not, why would I not expect a repeat in the future?
> 
> I offer a very fragile trust to my WS and while I realize my vulnerability, I simply will not remain in any relationship where I have to be a watchdog. You are at a point now where you may be considering vengeance vs. compassion. Only you can decide the right course. Please take the time and space you need for gentle self-care.


Jung, 

I am as far from revenge as I believe I can be. Quite frankly, I'm too tired to exact revenge. What energy I do have, I spend on myself and my daughter. I will occasionally see my WH ~ 2 to 3 times a week and he gets any leftovers . 

Your "free pass" question is thought-provoking and supports something I've been thinking about all day today: Have I made potential R too easy for WH? Perhaps...why? Because I do still love him. Why? Only God knows that. However, that being said, I know without a question that that love would not survive a repeat offense. 

Thanks for your feedback!


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

During a visit with WH this past weekend, I asked to see his company laptop. 

*Reminder*: WH is staying with mother during separation during period of IC while daughter is home from college. Thus the only true monitoring I have is cell phone records which have been clean. I searched his bedroom and his car for a burner phone and did not find one and have my own little private eyes monitoring him at his place of employment. Am placing VAR in car next time I have access to it. 

Resuming scenario:
WH willingly opens laptop and allows me to explore, but as I spend about 30 minutes perusing, he becomes increasingly agitated, taking deep breaths and walking in an out of the room. His mother walks by the room on her way to the restroom and notices me looking at his computer. Once I have finished my checking and shut down the computer, he is clearly agitated, asking "Did you have to do that in front of my mother? Couldn't you have asked me to bring the laptop to the house instead?" My response was, "If I had, you might have wiped or deleted anything I was looking for beforehand." In other words, I felt I needed the element of surprise to check the laptop for any communication with OW. Then he cancelled an outing he had scheduled for us, claiming his mind was not in the right place. He becomes frustrated very quickly these days which I honestly feel doesn't bode well for the long journey ahead of us during R. 

Is this my hypervigilance or do you think his actions indicated he was afraid I might find something? And why would he be so concerned about his mother seeing me check his computer if she has full knowledge of the A? 

Any thoughts, especially of any WSs and how they may have dealt with the BS looking/checking for activity with AP would be greatly appreciated.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It sounds like he was worried that you were going to find something and the concern about his mother was a cover story for his agitation. If you haven't made a habit of checking his work laptop, he may have felt safe using it to communicate with her.


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## ScrewedEverything (May 14, 2013)

GreenThumb said:


> ....why would he be so concerned about his mother seeing me check his computer if she has full knowledge of the A?
> 
> Any thoughts, especially of any WSs and how they may have dealt with the BS looking/checking for activity with AP would be greatly appreciated.


I can relate to this as a fWH. It sounds like he's frustrated with the process and I think that is a common phase that fWSs go through at the beginning. It's not that he has something to hide - exactly the opposite - he's thinking, "why can't she see that I've changed, I'm clean, and I'm doing everything I can to make things right? Is she doing this just to humiliate me and punish me?" He just needs to get over it and get over himself. 

Probably because you have been separated and haven't started MC, he doesn't fully appreciate your perspective. Once he does, if he is serious, he will get it and do whatever it takes. He will understand that its not punishment, its what you need to do; that, no, you can't see what's in his head and, even if you could, you can't be expected to just believe it;; that his frustration is nothing compared with what you are dealing with; that his humiliation in front of family and friends is the price he has to pay and, in the end, it's an insignificant price if it helps restore your relationship.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

ScrewedEverything said:


> I can relate to this as a fWH. It sounds like he's frustrated with the process and I think that is a common phase that fWSs go through at the beginning. It's not that he has something to hide - exactly the opposite - he's thinking, "why can't she see that I've changed, I'm clean, and I'm doing everything I can to make things right? Is she doing this just to humiliate me and punish me?" He just needs to get over it and get over himself.
> 
> Probably because you have been separated and haven't started MC, he doesn't fully appreciate your perspective. Once he does, if he is serious, he will get it and do whatever it takes. He will understand that its not punishment, its what you need to do; that, no, you can't see what's in his head and, even if you could, you can't be expected to just believe it;; that his frustration is nothing compared with what you are dealing with; that his humiliation in front of family and friends is the price he has to pay and, in the end, it's an insignificant price if it helps restore your relationship.


This is what I WANT to believe, but obviously, I'm guarded at best. He's been frustrated often lately and keeps telling me "The affair is over." I reply, "Perhaps for you, but I'm dealing with the aftermath of it." He tells me that he's frustrated with himself for what he's done and how it's hurt me and the family. I really think he's getting close to a full realization of the As consequences because he often says, "I've ruined everything and I have to live with this for the rest of my life." He's been extremely needy and atypically sensitive, always reading between the lines of text messages. 

I really appreciate your perspective as a fWH; I know how I feel, but have no idea what's going on in his head and what might be typical WS behaviors.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> It sounds like he was worried that you were going to find something and the concern about his mother was a cover story for his agitation. If you haven't made a habit of checking his work laptop, he may have felt safe using it to communicate with her.


Alte, 

Given I only see him once or twice a week and it's a corporate laptop, I'm not able to check it often or place a keylogger on it. He knows that if I find any contact with OW, it's merciless D...no questions asked. 

I'm really anxious to get the VAR in his car. I just want definitive proof either way; committed to IC and R or keeping the OW in the loop. 

Thank you for your thoughts.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey GThumb----I haven't read everyone's post, so I don't know if this has already come up

You want a reason for what happened-------51 yrs old

Your H, has crossed the 50 threshold---he knows---he is going to be looked upon as an old man soon enuff---and a hot young chick---went after him----do you need more

Your H, was thinking with what he sits on, facing advanced age, and what it brings, is never a reason, for cheating, but it is definitely a factor in one's thinking

Millions, cross that threshold, and move into their golden yrs with dignity----they live out good lives together, with their spouses----your H, unfortunately, may very well not be handling looking into his future very well------You should probably demand as a part of his R---that he go to IC, with a slant, on how to handle growing old.


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

Seems your husband has some issues if the OW is 20 years younger. She could be his daughter!


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## ScrewedEverything (May 14, 2013)

GreenThumb said:


> This is what I WANT to believe, but obviously, I'm guarded at best. He's been frustrated often lately and keeps telling me "The affair is over." I reply, "Perhaps for you, but I'm dealing with the aftermath of it." He tells me that he's frustrated with himself for what he's done and how it's hurt me and the family. I really think he's getting close to a full realization of the As consequences because he often says, "I've ruined everything and I have to live with this for the rest of my life." He's been extremely needy and atypically sensitive, always reading between the lines of text messages.
> 
> I really appreciate your perspective as a fWH; I know how I feel, but have no idea what's going on in his head and what might be typical WS behaviors.


Everything you've said confirms my impression. I really don't think he's hiding anything but, just as you are struggling with a mess of emotions (hurt, betrayal, doubt, grief, etc.), so is he (fear, shame, self-loathing, guilt, etc.). The difference is that he's the one who caused all of this, so he has to realize that his feelings take a back seat to yours. That realization will come with time and honest (if often painful) communication.

I went through everything you describe he is doing, including the being needy and atypically sensative. That's two things: he's trying to show you that he has been changed by all of this and he is also desparately trying to read you for signs of hope. The danger for you is that you might let his frustration and clinginess become an obstacle. The danger for him is that it all turns to despair and defeat. What he needs from you to push through this is hope. Not a guarantee that things will work out or even a guarantee that you are committed to trying - at this point it doesn't sound like you are there yet - but just an indication that you would like it if things could work out, that you haven't already written him off. 

Good luck. It's a long haul and it's easy to get derailed. You both just need to keep your eyes on the light at the end of the tunnel and push through.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

GT I certainly wish you well as you navigate R. However definitive proof of something not existing is difficult at best. 

Proof that he is still in contact is one thing. 

Good luck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

jnj express said:


> Hey GThumb----I haven't read everyone's post, so I don't know if this has already come up
> 
> You want a reason for what happened-------51 yrs old
> 
> ...


JNJ,

This is one of the major reasons why I am considering R. The age difference coupled with the blatant manner in which the OW planted the A seeds are huge factors in helping me understand what I can about my WH's tragic fall from fidelity. If there is such a thing as a perfect A storm, I swear my WH's A was it. 

Great idea to consider the aging aspect during IC.

Thank you for your feedback.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

ScrewedEverything said:


> Everything you've said confirms my impression. I really don't think he's hiding anything but, just as you are struggling with a mess of emotions (hurt, betrayal, doubt, grief, etc.), so is he (fear, shame, self-loathing, guilt, etc.). The difference is that he's the one who caused all of this, so he has to realize that his feelings take a back seat to yours. That realization will come with time and honest (if often painful) communication.
> 
> I went through everything you describe he is doing, including the being needy and atypically sensative. That's two things: he's trying to show you that he has been changed by all of this and he is also desparately trying to read you for signs of hope. The danger for you is that you might let his frustration and clinginess become an obstacle. The danger for him is that it all turns to despair and defeat. What he needs from you to push through this is hope. Not a guarantee that things will work out or even a guarantee that you are committed to trying - at this point it doesn't sound like you are there yet - but just an indication that you would like it if things could work out, that you haven't already written him off.
> 
> Good luck. It's a long haul and it's easy to get derailed. You both just need to keep your eyes on the light at the end of the tunnel and push through.


SE, 

Yes, we are walking a tightrope right now. I am naturally hesitant to be fully invested and he is reading my body language and texts for any signs of hope. Any time I use "we" describing future events, he notices. When I have a "warm and fuzzy" day (holding hands, hugs, kisses), he's elated and hopeful. When I am not so warm and fuzzy, he feels despair and asks, "Are you okay? Should I leave?" I want to scream, "No, I'm not alright. You had a 4-month long affair with a 31-year-old. How could I be alright?" But I don't because rehashing the obvious hurts both of us. 

Thank you again for your invaluable feedback.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

hey gthumb---know this---in little more than probably 7 to 10 yrs---the 2 of you, if you stay together, will be retired and in your home by yourselves 24/7---and like it or not--the years move by quickly

Maybe one of you will still work, maybe not---kids out of the home---so you are together----ALL THE TIME---day and night

Everything gets multiplied by 1000 times, as to how you get along, the tiniest things, ignored when younger--become an elephant-----you are incessantly bothered by his or your dependence on each other---this happens even if the 2 of you are on good terms, with no elephants in the room

You need to figure out---WHAT YOU WANT TO DO---prior to all of this---cuz if the spectre of his A---continues---and it will--as your sub-conscious will keep it forefront, you are gonna have a very hard time being with him everyday allday---KNOWING WHAT HE DID

Get it squared away, one way or the other, long before you are thrown together 24/7, where neither of you leaves for work, and you are there with each other ALL THE TIME


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## ScrewedEverything (May 14, 2013)

GreenThumb said:


> I want to scream, "No, I'm not alright. You had a 4-month long affair with a 31-year-old. How could I be alright?" But I don't because rehashing the obvious hurts both of us.


I've gotta disagree with you. You need to be able to scream this stuff at him. He needs to learn how to deal with it constructively. Thats the only way for you to heal and for him to develop a healthier way of dealing with relationship problems. Counselling and communicating will help you get to the place where you can vent your emotions and he can just say "I understand" and hold you. These episodes are actually good because thats part of rebuilding trust and confidence - showing each other that you can take the pain and still be there.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I'm thinking a great obstacle is going to be your daughter. I call it obstacle but might would be better challenge. If you want to reconcile you are going to be in the middle whether your like or not. You can't pretend it's something exclusively between them. Your direct relationship with her is going to be impacted by the R (or D).
How is she doing it? How is she taking your attempt of reconciliation (because she knows, obviously).


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

GreenThumb said:


> SE,
> 
> Yes, we are walking a tightrope right now. I am naturally hesitant to be fully invested and he is reading my body language and texts for any signs of hope. Any time I use "we" describing future events, he notices. When I have a "warm and fuzzy" day (holding hands, hugs, kisses), he's elated and hopeful. When I am not so warm and fuzzy, he feels despair and asks, "Are you okay? Should I leave?" I want to scream, "No, I'm not alright. You had a 4-month long affair with a 31-year-old. How could I be alright?" But I don't because rehashing the obvious hurts both of us.
> 
> Thank you again for your invaluable feedback.


Go read S4E's and craig42's threads. Burying your feeling can make the situation worse.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

ScrewedEverything said:


> I've gotta disagree with you. You need to be able to scream this stuff at him. He needs to learn how to deal with it constructively. Thats the only way for you to heal and for him to develop a healthier way of dealing with relationship problems. Counselling and communicating will help you get to the place where you can vent your emotions and he can just say "I understand" and hold you. These episodes are actually good because thats part of rebuilding trust and confidence - showing each other that you can take the pain and still be there.


The emotional outburst is important, but it may not heal the injury. I suggest a slightly different approach which involves a more empathetic emotional engagement of the WS:

Lifetime of Love: Recognize if your marriage has a deep injury, and HEAL IT!

Your WS feels incredible guilt & shame. Acknowledging the pain he inflicted upon you, actively and completely, is the path to begin to heal this injury. This will take some time.


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## ScrewedEverything (May 14, 2013)

Thanks jung, that article was helpful to me. It's always a struggle to know what to say, if anything. One question though, for you or anyone, that approach featured a ton of apologizing. My wife has said more than once that she's sick of hearing apologies, that "I'm sorry" doesn't mean anything. This leaves me to show my remorse and contrition in other ways. Am I doing that wrong? Does she still need to hear "I'm sorry" even if she says she doesn't?

Sorry, hope this isn't a threadjack but I figured it would be helpful to greenthumb too.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

jnj express said:


> hey gthumb---know this---in little more than probably 7 to 10 yrs---the 2 of you, if you stay together, will be retired and in your home by yourselves 24/7---and like it or not--the years move by quickly
> 
> Maybe one of you will still work, maybe not---kids out of the home---so you are together----ALL THE TIME---day and night
> 
> ...


JNJ, 

Yes, I've already given this thought since our children are aging and leaving the home. One's already left (graduated this spring) and the other is beginning fourth of six year doctoral program. 

We've technically been empty nesters for two years, and this was a difficult transition for us (moreso for me). In those two years, I completed a Master's program and my parents lived with us for 9 months (July 2012 to April 2013). I'm a middle school teacher (very stressful career in this day and age), throw in a sly, bitter, envious 31-year-old female and a 50-year-old man with little to no self esteem. I never thought people in my life were capable of such intentional and thoughtless selfishness nor have I failed to recognize poor character in others before the A. In fact, I've always been quick to judge and highly critical, so this A has completely thrown me out of my orbit, never to return.

I saw WH for a good portion of the day today. I know he's remorseful, and listened to me for a good half hour, explaining just how painful the A is for me. He admitted he was rightfully guilt-ridden, ashamed, distraught and frustrated with himself. He said, "You will never be the same and I'm the one who caused it" while he cried like I've never seen him cry before. My simple response was, "Yes, that's true." 

Remorse or not, like you posted, can I live with the knowledge that he's done this to me for the rest of our lives? Can't answer that yet. I need more time to process and accept this ugly reality. I need him to exercise insight (something he's never done before) and seriously look at who he is as a man and human being; I need him to know "how" he allowed himself to engage in the A so that he knows how to avoid doing it again. In other words, I love him enough to want him as whole and healthy as possible in the future, with or without me. I pray that IC will help him get there. 

Life would be so much easier if I didn't still love him. Ironically, if anyone would have asked me at any time in my life/marriage if I'd even consider forgiving infidelity, I would have adamantly answered, "Absolutely not." Just goes to show you that you can never know until you're there. 

Thank you for your insight and advice.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

ScrewedEverything said:


> Thanks jung, that article was helpful to me. It's always a struggle to know what to say, if anything. One question though, for you or anyone, that approach featured a ton of apologizing. My wife has said more than once that she's sick of hearing apologies, that "I'm sorry" doesn't mean anything. This leaves me to show my remorse and contrition in other ways. Am I doing that wrong? Does she still need to hear "I'm sorry" even if she says she doesn't?
> 
> Sorry, hope this isn't a threadjack but I figured it would be helpful to greenthumb too.


SE, 

You're right about the potential TJ; it will be helpful to me as well, so thank you!

I was nodding my head while I read this post. First, when I tell my WH how I feel and he doesn't say anything in response, I quickly become frustrated. Sometimes there is nothing he CAN say that will help and other times, if he responds honestly, he's likely to hurt me further. I'm sure this is a catch-22 for my WH if not most. I'm very articulate and quick with my words; WH needs much more time to ponder what I've shared before he formulates a verbal response. He often tells me that he can't "keep up with me." THIS is why I KNOW we need MC to hone our communications skills. We acknowledge each other's feelings, but when it comes to matters of the A, it naturally becomes more emotionally charged. 

As far as the "I'm sorry", I completely understand your BW's stance. It can be overused, thus begin to sound insincere even though that is not necessarily the case. Use synonyms for sorry to mix it up a bit and creatively "show" her how wholeheartedly apologetic you are. "I'm sorry" can take many forms: a slow dance in the middle of the living room, a note/card on the bathroom mirror or on her pillow, a walk around the block holding hands, a dinner prepared together or by you for her, a burned CD of her favorite songs left in her car. I have always appreciated small gestures that illustrate someone cared enough to make a conscious effort to think of me and recognize life's simple pleasures that bring me joy. Perhaps you've already done these types of things to convey how much you're sorry...

Again, thank you for your response.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Acabado said:


> I'm thinking a great obstacle is going to be your daughter. I call it obstacle but might would be better challenge. If you want to reconcile you are going to be in the middle whether your like or not. You can't pretend it's something exclusively between them. Your direct relationship with her is going to be impacted by the R (or D).
> How is she doing it? How is she taking your attempt of reconciliation (because she knows, obviously).


Acabado, 

Your observation is spot on. Yes, it will be a challenge with both my children as they have both told me shortly after DDay that they don't want me to reconcile with him. Of course, the fact that I was not considering R at that time, but instead seriously considering changing my last name to Gatsby may have influenced the direction of the entire conversation 

My daughter is more challenging because she's been home for the summer and is a much more faith-based person than son. The heart of the matter for my daughter is simple: Father is not a good moral man because a good moral man could/would not do what he's done to his wife and family. 

She hasn't seen or spoken to her father since DDay, but at the recommendation of IC, has arranged to publicly meet him this weekend. WH has expressed a desire to help her move into a house on campus in a few weeks and she realizes that that would not be the opportune time to first see or speak to each other. Another major factor in her betrayal pain is that she knew the OW and had become friends with her last year. Like me, she felt doubly betrayed. 

In my conversations with her, I've asked her if she is bothered or hurt by possible R and my communicating/spending time with WH. She said, "I respect whatever choice you make mom." 
We also discussed what a "strong woman" is: one who will not tolerate infidelity and is able to support herself and move on without WH *OR* one who, as a Christian, can find a way to forgive the husband to whom she has married for 26 years. We didn't come to a definitive answer on that one  

What she hasn't seen is the remorse her father has shown me. Again, I "feel" it's genuine, especially after today. WH is greatly (and deservedly) pained by the "loss" of his children; he was always a fun dad who eagerly supported them and demonstrated a sense of humor both of them have thankfully inherited. I've always been the serious disciplinarian to whom they could talk or rely upon. It's sad, but my daughter told me that she sadly doesn't miss her father as much as she thought she would because they rarely talked about matters of substance. That, she said, was what I did. He was the one with whom she watched baseball games or played catch. He always checked her tire pressure and oil when she came home from school. Yes, she misses him, but not in the ways she wishes she did. I guess this further illustrates what he now recognizes as a lack of communication skills in both the marriage AND family dynamics. 

Thank you for inquiring about my daughter. Yes, this will be a challenge...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

GreenThumb said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've been reading threads in this forum for nearly two weeks now and have decided to ask for some feedback about my WH of 26 years.
> 
> ...


Someone who has had a terrible shock. Or a series of terrible shocks.

Find out he is a cheating POS? That shocked me when I realised what I had become.

Realising he nearly lost everything that he valued all for a silly fling. (Been there, got the tranquillisers from the doctor...)

I hope you can both make it together, or can split as amicably as possible if that is what you desire. Because it's what you want that counts, now.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

GreenThumb said:


> Another major factor in her betrayal pain is that she knew the OW and had become friends with her last year. Like me, she felt doubly betrayed.


I didn't think about this! Of course, OW was close to her age and sure enough she WAS double betrayed and used. OW was a fake friend. Poor girl.
I'm crossing my fingers so your husband find a way to be humble and open himself to her own daughter. If he's capable of showing her he's really remorseful and want to share her pain... maybe she can stop hardening her heart. I really hope he's ready to suck whatever she decides to dish.
I believe you will find almost impossible to R if your daughter and your husband don't find each other again.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Acabado said:


> I didn't think about this! Of course, OW was close to her age and sure enough she WAS double betrayed and used. OW was a fake friend. Poor girl.
> I'm crossing my fingers so your husband find a way to be humble and open himself to her own daughter. If he's capable of showing her he's really remorseful and want to share her pain... maybe she can stop hardening her heart. I really hope he's ready to suck whatever she decides to dish.
> I believe you will find almost impossible to R if your daughter and your husband don't find each other again.


Acabado, 

I agree with your last statement therefore I pray that his remorse is genuine and she can see/feel it enough to potentially forgive. 

It's also hard because the children weren't/aren't and shouldn't be knowledgeable about or aware of all the marriage vulnerabilities. My responsibilities in the marriage and where I may have better fulfilled them are not necessarily topics easily or appropriately discussed with my children. 

Thank you for your best wishes.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Well, daughter had two-hour long breakfast with WH yesterday and gave him a list of questions to answer, mostly about morality, faith and what he expects his relationship with her and her brother to be like in the future. She also was "okay" with him attending church with us today. I know she is uncomfortable around him and I can feel her anger/disappointment in his presence. Understandable. 

A question for both BSs and WSs: I keep asking him "how" he could have had the A if he had any respect for me. If you take the "love" excuses out of the equation (ILYBNILWY and IDTYLM) and simply look at having simple respect for someone you know and have spent 26 years with, how could you respect someone and carry on an A amid lies and deception? He explains it was like an addiction and that he was wrapped up in how good she made him feel. 

Okay, so let's go with the addiction claim. If he has addiction tendency (sex, attention, "love"), I feel he must address this aspect of his personality during IC and MC. Without knowing how he became "addicted" and wrapped up in the A, he'll go down that road again, no? In my mind, he has to develop cognition of his behavior and a communication skill set to prevent/stop any future temptations. It's funny that since we've started to see each other for an occasional outing (movie, dinner, ice cream, etc) it seems like that's not enough for him. He's hesitant to drop me back off at home, he wants to make plans to see me as soon as possible and as often as possible. It almost feels like he's possessed or addicted? 

Secondly, if the A was really about how she made him feel about being loved and enjoying affection, I think I'm better off letting him go. In essence, what I hear is, "She paid attention to me in ways you didn't and in ways I enjoyed. I preferred her company, attention, and affection to yours until you outed the A." IOW, "I didn't enjoy spending time with you, I didn't like the affection you tried to show me years ago (thus I shut it down) and I don't love you." Of course, I realize that the A and a 26-year-old marriage are apples and oranges in terms of fantasy versus reality, but this attention and affection thing really baffles me because he was NEVER publicly affectionate with me. Now when we're out and about, he's holding my hand, stopping to kiss me, and caressing my face. I hate the idea that the OW revealed this to him when I tried to be affectionate with him years ago. THESE types of behavior from him makes me think I'm a replacement for the OW who he claims, "I never think about. I think only of you." 

I'm trying to view the A with as much logic and intellect as possible, minimizing the emotional responses based upon betrayal. All of his "how" explanations don't make sense when I use logic. 

I'm sure that I am not the first BS to examine these explanations. I'd love any feedback and thoughts.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

He doesn't sound like his A was an addiction. It was an extramarital A, the likes of which we see here every day. She was much younger and had the allure of youth. She wanted him and she stroked his ego. He did it because he wanted to. He hoped you wouldn't find out, but the chance that you would discover it wasn't enough to stop him from doing something that would hurt you deeply.

I think the affection he is showing now is probably just a reflection of his fear of losing you and his family now that he has been busted. He sounds clingy at this point when this wasn't his natural behavior with you before. He is trying to hold onto you, I think, and trying to impress you with his attachment and loyalty.

If it were me, I wouldn't let the addiction rationale sway my decision process. For me, I would see this as a man being flattered by the attentions of a much younger woman, a man who lusted after her and weighed the effects on his marriage and still decided to betray his W. This is the crux for me. He knew that this would be a betrayal that would hurt you, but he wanted to do it, so he did it. And he only stopped when he was caught.

He can be contrite and really want it to work. Many cheaters do. He can even try to 'snap himself out of' his attraction to the OW. The question is what you want for your life. It's a question of what you can live with and how you see the quality of your own life. You may not really know this for certain for some time.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> He doesn't sound like his A was an addiction. It was an extramarital A, the likes of which we see here every day. She was much younger and had the allure of youth. She wanted him and she stroked his ego. He did it because he wanted to. He hoped you wouldn't find out, but the chance that you would discover it wasn't enough to stop him from doing something that would hurt you deeply.
> 
> I think the affection he is showing now is probably just a reflection of his fear of losing you and his family now that he has been busted. He sounds clingy at this point when this wasn't his natural behavior with you before. He is trying to hold onto you, I think, and trying to impress you with his attachment and loyalty.
> 
> ...



alte Dame, 

Ouch...honesty and reality hurts, but I do appreciate your response. 

Yeah...the lack of respect is tough to swallow right now. Simply put, the gains outweighed the potential losses in his eyes. It hurts to think that we meant so little to him.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

I read the recent reply from Alte D, and there is a lot of truth there. Let me provide a slightly different perspective. You are wondering.... Why? While an addiction is possible, it certainly doesn't seem to apply here. So, why? 

Humans from birth are hard-wired for emotional connection. Without a sense of purpose and emotional connection to those around us we suffer (Freud said, "The only two things that matter are work and love). You and your husband lost your connection. You filled this need with your family, your children, your friends ... your husband could not or would not. Ask yourself honestly, were you not considering walking away, even before the betrayal? Beliefs, values & boundaries play a role in the subtle balance that makes you who you are. 

In short, your husband was meeting his emotional needs with the affair because he no longer had the trust & intimacy to turn to you for these emotional needs. This is where IC picks up. I am right where you are with my WS. Please take care of yourself.

One more thing: The fact that he tried to hide the affair from you says a lot. He still cares about your feelings otherwise he might have made no attempt to hide his behavior. Small consolation I know, but I'm less certain about rebuilding a relationship after brazen & overt betrayal.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Yeah, you are overthinking this adiction thing.
Lust, feeling desired and persued by this bimbo, limerence like feelings... of course they are addictive-like.
You husbands is a run of the mill affair, almost a cliche, I'm sorry.
His behavior about you is also normal, I'd say consistent or even typical of WSs who are commited to R, scared sh1tles at the notion of losing their BS.
We say often actions speaks louder than words... well his actions, his clingy behavior speak very clear about where his mind is.
As I read this he's just desperate to keep you. And it's a risk as you alredy lost a huge deal of respect for him with the affair to begin with, this kind of behavoir can be interpreted as weak and no dignified and can make lose any trace of respect left.
Also, I believe her daughter examination and - borderline humilliating - tests point out at a humble, correct attitude.
Boy, she sounds very black and white thinker, she's testing him badly. I can't imagine a more humbling experience.

Take it for what it looks like, believe it. It doesn't mean you like it but believe it as it sounds real.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Jung_admirer said:


> I read the recent reply from Alte D, and there is a lot of truth there. Let me provide a slightly different perspective. You are wondering.... Why? While an addiction is possible, it certainly doesn't seem to apply here. So, why?
> 
> Humans from birth are hard-wired for emotional connection. Without a sense of purpose and emotional connection to those around us we suffer (Freud said, "The only two things that matter are work and love). You and your husband lost your connection. You filled this need with your family, your children, your friends ... your husband could not or would not. Ask yourself honestly, were you not considering walking away, even before the betrayal? Beliefs, values & boundaries play a role in the subtle balance that makes you who you are.
> 
> ...


Jung, 

As in any marriage there were highs and lows, but I honestly never felt that he and I were so disconnected that either one of us would resort to infidelity. However, I will admit that we did not communicate effectively, did not devote enough time and energy to "us" and took each other for granted. This is easy to do when the children are young as they can easily become the focus of the marriage energies. However, we are recent empty nesters, so this was not the case. At this phase of our lives, it was easier for me to *not *see his disconnect because of my demanding job and graduate studies. In short, he felt "lonely", and he never communicated to me that he needed me to find time for him and our marriage. Yes, I should have known this as any marriage requires this, but at the same time, he did not take up the responsibility to voice his concerns before taking part in the A. 

What's most frustrating is that during the A, I appealed to him emotionally on at least two occasions, pleading for him to tell me why he was so distant and disconnected, asking what I could do to help/support him. When he couldn't/didn't respond, I attributed his distance to the fact that his mother was recovering from a nasty winter fall and he was worried that she wouldn't bounce back. I even accused him of being unfaithful on one occasion when he wasn't where he claimed to be. He concocted a story. 

What really hurts is that there were opportunities for him to "come clean" on these three occasions and he never took them. I sensed something was wrong, but never would have come to think/believe he could cheat on me. 

Thank you for your response; I appreciate it.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Acabado said:


> Yeah, you are overthinking this adiction thing.
> Lust, feeling desired and persued by this bimbo, limerence like feelings... of course they are addictive-like.
> You husbands is a run of the mill affair, almost a cliche, I'm sorry.
> His behavior about you is also normal, I'd say consistent or even typical of WSs who are commited to R, scared sh1tles at the notion of losing their BS.
> ...


Acabado, 

I painfully laughed out loud when I read your comment about my husband being a cliche. You're right...sadly. 

Yesterday I was angry most of the day when I thought of the A. I was reminded of your earlier post about my getting angry and hoping my WH could tolerate this phase. Well, we shared a dinner last night and immediately following, I gave him a dose of my anger. It was not pretty, it was not polite and at some points, it was downright crude. I've had limited outbursts like this, so this was difficult for him to hear and tolerate. He cried and acknowledged everything I said. He wanted to hold me, but I wasn't able to let him. At one point, he stood up and said he wasn't feeling good and was going to leave. Right or wrong, I told him that he shouldn't feel good because he had an A and if he needed to leave, then leave, but that in my eyes, his leaving meant:

1) he isn't/wasn't brave enough to face my anger produced by A
2) he was giving up and walking out on me and our marriage AGAIN
3) his walking out meant he wasn't willing to fight through the A's aftermath to keep me and our marriage

I really thought I was through the anger phase weeks ago, but apparently I'm not. However, I feel that I have to keep this anger somewhat in check, otherwise he'll have little or no incentive to R given that he also has a sea of negative emotions that he's dealing with on top of mine. 

My daughter is very black and white which is typical of most 20-year-olds. I can recall being this way at her age and she comes by it very honestly. Her mom tends to be this way too 

Boy, this R business is complicated...

Thank you again for your response. I love TAM and the people who inhabit it!


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

GreenThumb said:


> What really hurts is that there were opportunities for him to "come clean" on these three occasions and he never took them. I sensed something was wrong, but never would have come to think/believe he could cheat on me.


Consider that it might be possible to be well aware that something is amiss, but not really certain of the source of this anguish. It took me months in IC to figure out the deep feelings that accompany these unsettling thoughts. In a perfect world your WH would have said. "I am not happy and it's on me figure this out. I need some time and space in IC to work through my MLC". I certainly wish my WW had. 

There were, of course, other options for your WH: Continue to suffer, leave the relationship, or simply mistreat you until you leave. Not very appealing are they? I asked my WW to please take care of herself as many times as you asked your WH. She did manage to partially get her emotional needs met with the A, damaging her & me and imploding our relationship. Let me tell you how I am looking at this 12 months after DOD. Our original emotional contract in marriage was both romantic and naive (I won't talk about my needs and you won't talk about your needs). That relationship burned to the ground, as it was destined to. I now have an opportunity to figure out who I am and what I want, independent of external forces (OK, sort of independent). The new contract I negotiate with my partner will not be entirely different, but it will have very clear expectations, boundaries and commitments. Will this new partner be my WW? I hope so ... time will tell if we both have the strength to clean up our side of the street and the love to turn toward one another. 

One more thing: Anger is essential, rage is useless. It took me months to stop trying to fight fire with fire. Compassion is the water on the fire. If you can find it within you, then you have the potential to start to reconcile. If not, work on your side of the street and move on when the time is right for you. Take the time you need.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Jung_admirer said:


> Consider that it might be possible to be well aware that something is amiss, but not really certain of the source of this anguish. It took me months in IC to figure out the deep feelings that accompany these unsettling thoughts. In a perfect world your WH would have said. "I am not happy and it's on me figure this out. I need some time and space in IC to work through my MLC". I certainly wish my WW had.
> 
> There were, of course, other options for your WH: Continue to suffer, leave the relationship, or simply mistreat you until you leave. Not very appealing are they? I asked my WW to please take care of herself as many times as you asked your WH. She did manage to partially get her emotional needs met with the A, damaging her & me and imploding our relationship. Let me tell you how I am looking at this 12 months after DOD. Our original emotional contract in marriage was both romantic and naive (I won't talk about my needs and you won't talk about your needs). That relationship burned to the ground, as it was destined to. I now have an opportunity to figure out who I am and what I want, independent of external forces (OK, sort of independent). The new contract I negotiate with my partner will not be entirely different, but it will have very clear expectations, boundaries and commitments. Will this new partner be my WW? I hope so ... time will tell if we both have the strength to clean up our side of the street and the love to turn toward one another.
> 
> One more thing: Anger is essential, rage is useless. It took me months to stop trying to fight fire with fire. Compassion is the water on the fire. If you can find it within you, then you have the potential to start to reconcile. If not, work on your side of the street and move on when the time is right for you. Take the time you need.


Jung,

Like your marriage, ours was based upon the romantic naive concept of love where we did not communicate our needs to each other. Early in our marriage, I communicated with H using the only method I'd ever seen/learned... highly emotional outbursts of crying which led to his defensiveness. After a while, he told me I was overemotional, I eventually shut down and became the "cold hard *****" because he had...he never acknowledged my needs nor did he respond with his own. 

My parents modeled dysfunctional communication (alcoholism and codependency) whereas his modeled near perfect stoic "elephant in the room" communication. It really is no wonder we are where we are when I think about it. Again, I'm just angry that he didn't have the respect for me and the family to choose a more honorable method of meeting his needs. 

Like you, I hope we can work through R and come out the other side together.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

GreenThumb said:


> Like your marriage, ours was based upon the romantic naive concept of love where we did not communicate our needs to each other. Early in our marriage, I communicated with H using the only method I'd ever seen/learned... highly emotional outbursts of crying which led to his defensiveness. After a while, he told me I was overemotional, I eventually shut down and became the "cold hard *****" because he had...he never acknowledged my needs nor did he respond with his own.
> 
> My parents modeled dysfunctional communication (alcoholism and codependency) whereas his modeled near perfect stoic "elephant in the room" communication. It really is no wonder we are where we are when I think about it. Again, I'm just angry that he didn't have the respect for me and the family to choose a more honorable method of meeting his needs.
> 
> Like you, I hope we can work through R and come out the other side together.


Wow, scary ... I have EXACTLY the same pattern, except my WW would scream and I would shut down. Both sets of parents, equally dysfunctional. Vent that anger, it's important. I am going to share something with you that helped me some (after I vented a few months): 

Learning Taoism: Releasing Judgement | Personal Tao
Midlife (Crisis) Transformations | Personal Tao

Kindest Regards-


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Fortunately, I save text messages. So I have "proof" of what was going on my marriage prior to and during my husband's affair, and it sounds like it was probably similar to what was going on in yours. I'd say overall there was much more good than bad, though certainly some things were not being communicated that should have been - a small part of that due on my end to the idea that you should "let some things slide," though in hindsight, I realize it all adds to a stockpile of resentment, which isn't good for the health of a marriage (hope to work on this as we begin MC).

I have one text from him - during the EA phase - marking the anniversary of our first date by saying the years with me were the "best years of" his life. Another text from him, also during the EA phase, said "I love you with all my heart." Of course, engaging in revisionist history as most WS's automatically do, the marriage was NOT meeting his needs. Well, he had made that abundantly clear in his texts, didn't he??

I do think there is an addictive quality to this stuff, both the EA goings-on (his texts to and from her - ridiculous numbers) and the PA. I think there are brain chemicals involved - stuff I don't fully understand, but they get "hooked on a feeling." I suspect this had much more to do with something that was lacking in THEM than what may or may not have been lacking in our marriages. I'm not saying my marriage or your marriage had no problems. There was room for improvement, and I know that. 

But affair sex and sexting are known to be wildly exciting - the naughty factor, the danger factor (the "might get caught" piece adds to the excitement), the getting some "strange" (ick!) factor, etc. I think this gives them a chemical rush. It's like a drug. Let's face it: wives are not like drugs. We're loyal and trustworthy and there when you need us and boy, isn't that just reliable and boring? When your ego needs boosting because YOU have issues, a younger woman who wants your body is just the thing to "medicate" yourself with. 

And if they have issues, they aren't thinking this thing through - so WHEN they get caught (it's probably not if, because most do), it's a nightmare. And we're living it. For reasons I won't go into here, my WS definitely does not want anything to do with the OW, so I know that it's over and I don't worry about that. But the trust I had in him has been shattered, and that's hard to rebuild. It's hard to feel close to someone you barely trust. So many lies, by omission and outright, so much deception. Activities together help, but....

Talking about the affair has been VERY difficult; I too have let loose on him at times. But we HAVE to talk about it in order to heal. A few times it has gone well, many times it has gone badly, and a couple times it has been disastrous. So I hope MC will help in that regard because it will be like a festering wound if the dressing doesn't come off and it doesn't get exposed to the open air. We've finally agreed to a set day and time each week to discuss it in addition to MC; I'm hoping this will help too.

I wanted to share some similarities in our situations. I'm about 6 months from D-Day. I do believe time helps - I'm not as "crazed" as I was early on - but our WS's definitely have to step up, too. Best of luck to you.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> Fortunately, I save text messages. So I have "proof" of what was going on my marriage prior to and during my husband's affair, and it sounds like it was probably similar to what was going on in yours. I'd say overall there was much more good than bad, though certainly some things were not being communicated that should have been - a small part of that due on my end to the idea that you should "let some things slide," though in hindsight, I realize it all adds to a stockpile of resentment, which isn't good for the health of a marriage (hope to work on this as we begin MC).
> 
> I have one text from him - during the EA phase - marking the anniversary of our first date by saying the years with me were the "best years of" his life. Another text from him, also during the EA phase, said "I love you with all my heart." Of course, engaging in revisionist history as most WS's automatically do, the marriage was NOT meeting his needs. Well, he had made that abundantly clear in his texts, didn't he??
> 
> ...


Hopeful, 

Thank you for sharing your similar story and candid thoughts. You're a little further along the R trail than I, so it's good to know I will feel less crazed. I did see my WH again today and I wasn't angry. I chose to face a few triggers today which certainly put a hamper on conversation early in the evening, but I faced them without any major breakdown and I did not have an angry outburst either. I'm sure it helps that we were in public places the entire time, so I was better able to keep a lid on my emotions. I've noticed that I vent more often when WH comes to the house to visit. I feel dually more empowered and vulnerable.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Update:
Have finally gotten a VAR which I'm hoping I can put in place before I go out of town for the entire week next week. I was nervous just buying it. Just goes to show you how naturally transparent and trusting I am. I'm nervous about bring out if town. If ever there was a perfect opportunity for WH to stray, this is it. 
I have a question for BSs. Weeks ago, I felt much more needy and emotionally attached to WH particularly when we spent time together. During the past week, I feel less needy and emotional. Is this progress in my healing and potential R? Or is it a sign that I'm closer to D and moving on without him? 
On another related note, WH asked daughter to attend a function and she agreed. This is progress for their relationship 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

GreenThumb said:


> Update:
> Have finally gotten a VAR which I'm hoping I can put in place before I go out of town for the entire week next week. I was nervous just buying it. Just goes to show you how naturally transparent and trusting I am. I'm nervous about bring out if town. If ever there was a perfect opportunity for WH to stray, this is it.
> I have a question for BSs. Weeks ago, I felt much more needy and emotionally attached to WH particularly when we spent time together. During the past week, I feel less needy and emotional. Is this progress in my healing and potential R? Or is it a sign that I'm closer to D and moving on without him?
> On another related note, WH asked daughter to attend a function and she agreed. This is progress for their relationship
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Feeling less needy and emotional is indeed a sign of progress in your healing, but it's not a clear indication for either R or D (sorry! no crystal ball). You will continue to be uncertain about that - quite normal - and this is where HIS actions will be most important. He can tear it all down if he sees the OW, or he could really have put that all behind and be totally invested in repairing what he's messed up. He has a lot to prove, and time will tell. Earning back your trust doesn't come quickly; it will take a long time. Proving that he deserves it won't be easy after a breach like this, and you'll never trust him to the degree that you did before. I trusted my husband completely - I hope I get up into the 90% range one day. It's climbed up to about 30ish now!! 

Don't expect perfection though - bristling at things like checking their various accounts is to be expected. It is, after all, humiliating. When I'm compassionate about it, I understand that - when I'm angry, I think he brought it on himself. But I try to let compassion win out over anger because if reconciliation is going to have any chance of succeeding, I have to.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

hopefulgirl said:


> Feeling less needy and emotional is indeed a sign of progress in your healing, but it's not a clear indication for either R or D (sorry! no crystal ball). You will continue to be uncertain about that - quite normal - and this is where HIS actions will be most important. He can tear it all down if he sees the OW, or he could really have put that all behind and be totally invested in repairing what he's messed up. He has a lot to prove, and time will tell. Earning back your trust doesn't come quickly; it will take a long time. Proving that he deserves it won't be easy after a breach like this, and you'll never trust him to the degree that you did before. I trusted my husband completely - I hope I get up into the 90% range one day. It's climbed up to about 30ish now!!
> 
> Don't expect perfection though - bristling at things like checking their various accounts is to be expected. It is, after all, humiliating. When I'm compassionate about it, I understand that - when I'm angry, I think he brought it on himself. But I try to let compassion win out over anger because if reconciliation is going to have any chance of succeeding, I have to.


It is all part of the "roller coaster" ride. I turned a corner in healing two weeks ago and then wham, felt punched in the gut last week and it continued till today. Created some tension and an argument with my wife last night and the day before. 

Just keep trucking. R suc*s but hopefully it will get better for us all.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Update: 
Still in IC and looking for MC counselors so that WH and I can begin working on the communication issues. We have been able to spend time together with limited negative interactions. I still cry often when I'm with him, but that is stemmed in sadness. However, last night we had a major blow-up which clearly highlighted we need the MC. 

WH has yet to answer the "HOW" he could betray me if he loves me as he claims he does. All he can offer me is, "I'm a bad person. Only a bad person could do this to the people he loves." Again, I'm not satisfied with this as it's a blanket statement. This was the impetus of last night's blow-up. 

I'm still trying to rationalize how he could/would risk me and our family for the A and then not want to be with her after disclosure. Of course, I/we/everyone know(s) the A was "wrong" and this fact alone makes the A unattractive post disclosure, but I can't wrap my mind around how he could engage in an A without weighing costs and benefits. It really comes down to I'm devastated that I/we meant so little to him. It's an unbalanced equation with at least one unknown variable AKA the "HOW". He then tried to justify A ("She fulfilled a need I didn't know I had", "I always came last", "Think about it, did you really love me?") and I would allow none of that. Then it escalated to frustration and anger on his behalf: "You'd be better off without me. I'm not worth it because I bring you so much pain when you're with me. Find someone else. You deserve better." I then begin to think this was his plan all along. 

I'm struggling with feeling like he's imposing things he said and did with the OW onto me. One example is that during one conversation, he told me that he hopes that in the future he wants to travel with me as I've always wanted to go to Europe. When he told me, my gut told me that he had that conversation with her since she went there last summer. Sure enough, when I asked, he had. Naturally, I become angry and hurt, feeling like he's echoing conversations he had/perhaps misses with her with me. Nothing feels like its "ours" anymore, but rather echoes of what was "theirs" during their A fantasy. 

When I feel this way, I wonder if there is enough marriage to save, that R may be impossible given the damage. I also wonder if WH has dug deep enough to even knows who he loves. He keeps telling me that if he didn't love me, he would have left upon disclosure and would still be with her. This makes sense, but really, didn't he show me that he didn't love me and left when he had the A? 

My IC tells me that I'm trying to rationalize something (the A) that, to some degree, can't be rationalized. 

Thoughts anyone?


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

Who says it can't be rationalized or broken down in a logical form? 

Marry a person. That person is or grows to be self centered. That person is not concerned enough with the well being or feelings of others to prevent destructive actions. That person engages in an affair, but covers it up so to avoid the consequences of discovery. 
. 

We're shocked that we can be so far off the mark in our judgement of the WSs. That in my experience is what we can't wrap our heads around. The question is: How could my opinion of this person so drastically differ from reality? 

Selfish people do selfish things. That isn't an epiphany. Many would disagree with my simplistic explanation and claim it's more complex than it. At brass tacks though, that's what it is. 

From what i've seen, it's not that cheaters don't care about their families. It's that they're so entirely devoted to themselves when it comes to cheating, it simply never occurs to them. So wrapped in #1, the idea of giving HIV to an innocent spouse never crosses their mind. Or pregnancy, emotional fallout, financial ruin, child support etc. 

So does he love you? In his way is my guess. Did he weigh the risks of losing you? Briefly. But in his own mind he was able to drum up a reason to act in that moment. For example, lets say he's starting to feel guilty about cheating. A WS might come up with a reason to argue, then storm off to the AP using the argument as an excuse. 

Or if caught and the BS accuses them of still talking to an AP, the WS may do it anyways saying "well you said I was doing it. I may as well." 

Anyways, I hope I explained my own opinion on it well enough.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

GreenThumb said:


> Update:
> Still in IC and looking for MC counselors so that WH and I can begin working on the communication issues. We have been able to spend time together with limited negative interactions. I still cry often when I'm with him, but that is stemmed in sadness. However, last night we had a major blow-up which clearly highlighted we need the MC.
> 
> WH has yet to answer the "HOW" he could betray me if he loves me as he claims he does. All he can offer me is, "I'm a bad person. Only a bad person could do this to the people he loves." Again, I'm not satisfied with this as it's a blanket statement. This was the impetus of last night's blow-up.
> ...


Dear GreenThumb,

I'm not a psychiatrist but I am old enough to have seen a lot of immoral behavior of various sorts. My take on it is this: people cheat (and do other bad things) because they enjoy it or enjoy what they get out of it, and because they think that either they won't get caught or they don't care if they do.

That may sound simplistic but, IMO, everything else is just a rationalization. Your WH cheated on you because he wanted to and because, at least when he was doing it, making himself feel good was more important than what it would do to you if you found out. To the extent he even considered your feelings, he rationalized it by thinking you'd never know or that somehow you would forgive him (which you seem to be inclined to do).

I'm not saying that you shouldn't press him on this but just keep in mind that, whatever he says, he cheated because he wanted to; he wanted to because he enjoyed it; and he enjoyed it because he cared more about himself at that moment than about you and his family. 

I'm also not saying that you shouldn't give him and your marriage another chance, if that's what you want to do.

I'm also not saying that your WH can't change and become the kind of person who puts your feelings first. Maybe he can.

I'm just saying that, when you get right down to it, some people care more about themselves and other people care more about their loved ones, and that largely explains why some cheat and others don't.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

I go along with what your IC said, only I would put it slightly differently: it's like trying to make sense of something that doesn't completely make sense. There may be ways to break it down and explain PARTS of the whole situation, such as what were some of the contributing factors that made your WS vulnerable to an affair. But that will only get you so far. "How could you have done this if you love me?" will likely never be satisfactorily answered. It doesn't make sense. 

It doesn't even make sense to my own husband, my WS! He doesn't completely understand his own behavior himself. So how could he explain it to me? At one point he said, "I wasn't in my right mind." He did have more depression and anxiety going on, so that rings true. (He was trying to wean himself off his medication, having decided on his own to take half a pill every other day at the time when the affair started; the dose was so low at that point, it was like no medication at all.) And I think compartmentalizing figures in as well. 

But there's some degree of "off the wall," out of character, not in keeping with the kind of person I thought I knew, or even the kind of person he thought HE was. He is so ashamed of HIMSELF. It's hard to explain what's going on when one goes through a period like that, but certainly one isn't thinking things through very logically or giving much consideration to the people one SHOULD be taking into consideration. 

If a person goes a little "nuts" and stops thinking clearly enough to act like his truest self and doesn't act responsibly, he won't then be able to make sense of it later to his spouse. 

FYI - One partial explanation I've come up with is that he was "self-medicating" with the "intoxicating" thrill of the chase, the flirting, then the sexting, then the PA. He wasn't getting help from his meds, but on some level he "knew" he needed something. He didn't come up with this explanation - I did. It's only one piece of the puzzle, but I think it fits. Do you think your husband could have some mild depression as an underlying issue? Some of his statements indicate low self-worth, which can be a symptom of depression. Depressed people sometimes do strange things to feel better.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

People try very hard to understand the motivations for infidelity & often settle on simple selfishness. The cheater wanted to do it because it felt good.

Your WH wanted to have an emotional and physical relationship with the OW because it made him feel good, but he didn't want to give you up, so he ate cake as long as he could. When faced with a 'her or me' ultimatum, however, he says that there is no contest. He wants you. You will never know if he would have continued to eat cake indefinitely. It's possible.

So, he wanted to have the A, but wants to be with you more. The problem for you is that he wanted both things, i.e., he wanted her, too. This is what hurts, no? That after all those years, he wanted her badly enough to do what he did.

I think he can snap out of it because something that wasn't binary for him became binary when you busted him. He sees that she is not an option anymore if he wants you in his life at all, so it's a no-brainer for him.

You can't erase the fact that he wanted her badly enough to betray your vows to one another. This is what you will have to reconcile in your head if you move forward with him. Some people can do this & some can't. I think time will tell you which camp you are in.

FWIW, I think you have a shot at reconciliation given his mindset post-affair.

p.s. - Did you ever VAR the car?


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## jupiter13 (Jun 8, 2012)

My WH says the same thing, I want only you" and when he does I just want to laugh. H wasn't in love with her thinks she was ugly he says. When I ask what it was about her that attracted you he says good question. Well it had to be something and as long as the answer is "I don't know," what happens when another woman gets in his face and says I want you? If he was that weak before what makes him think his is strong enough now to not do it again? No I too need more pieces of the puzzle if I am going to wrap my head around this. I need more parts of the whole since I am the one that has lost so much out of my world. No one else has lost a damm thing that they weren't willing to give up with "their" choice and they are happily moving forward. Sorry your going through this but your not alone with wanting the puzzle pieces in place to hrpl understand the extent of the A and just what it is you are being asked to forgive. So many of these guys think it's all about the sex we have to forgive but there is so much more effected that just that. They may still be great people but they don't get to walk back in and take up where they left off with a opps....


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

awake1 said:


> Who says it can't be rationalized or broken down in a logical form?
> 
> Marry a person. That person is or grows to be self centered. That person is not concerned enough with the well being or feelings of others to prevent destructive actions. That person engages in an affair, but covers it up so to avoid the consequences of discovery.
> .
> ...


Awake, 

You def explained your opinion clearly and I appreciate it. You hit it on the nail about my judgement about WH being so far off the mark. It just bugs the living sheeit out of me that I've spent so much time and energy in this relationship and he literally threw it all out the window for a feel good. The fact that I'm stubborn and loyal to a fault does not make the situation any easier for me. I've never been good at letting go. 

Thanks again...


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> People try very hard to understand the motivations for infidelity & often settle on simple selfishness. The cheater wanted to do it because it felt good.
> 
> Your WH wanted to have an emotional and physical relationship with the OW because it made him feel good, but he didn't want to give you up, so he ate cake as long as he could. When faced with a 'her or me' ultimatum, however, he says that there is no contest. He wants you. You will never know if he would have continued to eat cake indefinitely. It's possible.
> 
> ...


alte, 

The "feeling good" is what he has offered me: "She made me feel good about myself and desired." This was def a marriage vulnerability. Both my WH and I rarely nurtured our marriage and def took each other for granted. I tend to throw myself into whatever I'm doing at 110% which leads to an unbalanced life, a very unhealthy habit. At the time of the A, I was in the throes of graduate work, my parents were living with us and it was winter, a season my WH typically struggles with as I think he has undiagnosed SAD. As jupiter asked, I do think he struggles with this form of depression. Please understand me though...none of these are justifications for the A. He made a series of poor and selfish choices without regard to those he claims to still love. These are just conditions that primed it 

At the very core though, WH trained me to stuff my emotions very early in marriage and we eventually became emotionally, then intimately disconnected. We both see this now, but as I said in previous post, I worry that there's not enough marriage to save given the betrayal. 

I have yet to VAR the car because I haven't had an opportunity to plant it. I will def have an opportunity to plant it over the next few days. Our daughter has gone back to college and WH thought he would simply transition back into home when she left. I nixed that idea as in my opinion (the one that counts the most right now) he still has much work to do to understand how he allowed the A to happen and how he can prevent any future infidelity. 

Thank you for your input and especially your comment about a good shot at reconciliation. As always, I appreciate it.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

jupiter13 said:


> My WH says the same thing, I want only you" and when he does I just want to laugh. H wasn't in love with her thinks she was ugly he says. When I ask what it was about her that attracted you he says good question. Well it had to be something and as long as the answer is "I don't know," what happens when another woman gets in his face and says I want you? If he was that weak before what makes him think his is strong enough now to not do it again? No I too need more pieces of the puzzle if I am going to wrap my head around this. I need more parts of the whole since I am the one that has lost so much out of my world. No one else has lost a damm thing that they weren't willing to give up with "their" choice and they are happily moving forward. Sorry your going through this but your not alone with wanting the puzzle pieces in place to hrpl understand the extent of the A and just what it is you are being asked to forgive. So many of these guys think it's all about the sex we have to forgive but there is so much more effected that just that. They may still be great people but they don't get to walk back in and take up where they left off with a opps....


Jupiter, 

Yes, there are moments in our conversations where I truly think WH just doesn't "get it" (the multiple effects of the betrayal). Of course he doesn't. He has the benefit of a loyal spouse who can't lie without wincing. In fact, I mentioned this once to WH: "What a gift to have someone in your life who you KNOW won't and can't deceive you." 

I know better than to think that I'll ever have a complete puzzle. That would require emotional suicide on my part and that's def not something I will subject myself to. I do want and need him to understand how he allowed himself to make the choice. According to WH, it wasn't just about the sex. He was "lonely" because he felt he was always last in my eyes. While I can't say this is wrong because this is how he *felt*, to some extent I do think he's rewriting some marriage history to justify the A. Quite simply, he didn't have/chose not to use communication with me. He has always struggled with communication and his family could be the poster child for conflict avoidance. Yes, I was steeped in graduate work and didn't dote on him. I never have and he never did on me either. This wasn't our marriage style. So really, the 
A was about someone stroking him  and creating a feeling of being connected to someone (20 years younger than him) in the context of a new and exciting forbidden relationship. So ridiculously absurd...and selfish...and devastating. 

Hoping he can do the work to convince me he's worth R


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> I go along with what your IC said, only I would put it slightly differently: it's like trying to make sense of something that doesn't completely make sense. There may be ways to break it down and explain PARTS of the whole situation, such as what were some of the contributing factors that made your WS vulnerable to an affair. But that will only get you so far. "How could you have done this if you love me?" will likely never be satisfactorily answered. It doesn't make sense.
> 
> It doesn't even make sense to my own husband, my WS! He doesn't completely understand his own behavior himself. So how could he explain it to me? At one point he said, "I wasn't in my right mind." He did have more depression and anxiety going on, so that rings true. (He was trying to wean himself off his medication, having decided on his own to take half a pill every other day at the time when the affair started; the dose was so low at that point, it was like no medication at all.) And I think compartmentalizing figures in as well.
> 
> ...


hopeful, 

I do think WH has undiagnosed SAD as his winter personality is starkly darker than his summer one. Even our friends and relatives have noted this without my pointing it out. Could this have contributed to the A? Possibly, but I'm not of the mind that it was a major factor. Quite simply, he was selfish and immoral. Can I live with that and can he convince me that he was acting out of character? Only time and his diligence will tell. 

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Just two more comments, Green Thumb:

1. I think you have to call BS on some of his 'feel good' explanation. In my opinion, he has sanitized it for your ears such that you are looking at your history in your marriage and pointing to things that you think you could have nurtured more. This, however, neglects the fact that the OW is a much younger woman. To test his theory that his motivation was that she made him feel good/desired and that you had dropped the ball here, just ask yourself what he would have done if a 65-yo woman had flattered him in exactly the same way as the OW did. You can bet that he wouldn't have had an affair with her.

So, I don't buy that your behavior in the marriage and the dynamic between you over the years is an explanation. Sure, it can explain unhappiness, but not his A with her.

2. I sense that your willingness to try to reconcile will depend very much on it being completely over with her and him. I would definitely recommend that you get the VAR in asap and monitor for a long time. Also, keep checking his accounts, look for secret accounts (phone, e-mail, etc.) in order to confirm NC. His behavior when you checked his work laptop was very suspicious.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

carmen ohio said:


> Dear GreenThumb,
> 
> I'm not a psychiatrist but I am old enough to have seen a lot of immoral behavior of various sorts. My take on it is this: people cheat (and do other bad things) because they enjoy it or enjoy what they get out of it, and because they think that either they won't get caught or they don't care if they do.
> 
> ...


Carmen, 

Your comment about WH becoming the kind of person who puts my feelings first struck me. From my POV right now, he was barely aware of his own feelings much less anyone else's pre-A. Now that he has to deal with not only my post-A feelings, but his, his children's, families' and friends', he recognizes how disconnected he was to himself and everyone else (except the OW...obviously). 

Again, time will tell if WH can and will change his perspective. He tells me that he wants to be the husband he never was; he wants to make me feel valuable and loved. He wants to earn my trust back. 

I've got time...and I know regardless of the outcome, I'll be okay...with or without him. I'm worthy of the effort and if WH can't give it, then that's His will. 

Thank you for your candid feedback.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Someone here recommended "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful" by Linda J MacDonald. It's for spouses that don't seem to "get it." I bought it and have been highlighting it for my WS (I'll be making it so easy - the book is very short, and by highlighting, it'll be an even shorter read). It's a little religious in spots, but not too heavy an emphasis on that. It may help your WS to help you, and earn back some trust since such a disconnected guy will be pretty much clueless about how to go about doing that.


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## jupiter13 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hopefulgirl. "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful" by Linda J MacDonald." Good idea hadn't gotten this one yet but I am certainly going too. Thank you 

alte Dame " . I think you have to call BS on some of his 'feel good' explanation. In my opinion, he has sanitized it for your ears such that you are looking at your history in your marriage and pointing to things that you think you could have nurtured more. _This, however, neglects the fact that the OW is a much younger woman. To test his theory that his motivation was that she made him feel good/desired and that you had dropped the ball here, just ask yourself what he would have done if a 65-yo woman had flattered him in exactly the same way as the OW did. You can bet that he wouldn't have had an affair with her.
_
So, I don't buy that your behavior in the marriage and the dynamic between you over the years is an explanation. Sure, it can explain unhappiness, but not his A with her."

Good one I will be using this for another question, let's see how this one plays out. She was younger than our oldest son. Ha! explain that........


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> People try very hard to understand the motivations for infidelity & often settle on simple selfishness. The cheater wanted to do it because it felt good.
> 
> Your WH wanted to have an emotional and physical relationship with the OW because it made him feel good, but he didn't want to give you up, so he ate cake as long as he could. When faced with a 'her or me' ultimatum, however, he says that there is no contest. He wants you. You will never know if he would have continued to eat cake indefinitely. It's possible.
> 
> ...


altedame, 

I FINALLY was able to place VAR in his car tonight. We spent quite a bit of time together this weekend with most of it being positive. We're both heading back to a regular work schedule this week, so it will be interesting to get the VAR back when we see each other this weekend. Make or break as far as I'm concerned. If the VAR shows that he still has contact with her, I'm walking, no questions asked. I wish I had already had D papers drawn up in early weeks post D Day in the event he's still up to no good. Again, time will tell.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Best of luck, GT. I don't envy you either the waiting time with the VAR running or having to listen to it. I very much hope for you that it is clean. Not everyone continues to lie. I'm hoping for your sake that your WH is sincere in his desire to reconcile.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Update: 

VAR's been in car all week and I'll get it tomorrow night. 

I've been giving much thought to the respect aspect. He obviously had no respect for anyone (me, family, himself or AP) during the A. So...no respect = no love in my mind. 

On top of that...I'm grappling with a lack of respect for him. Can a WS earn back the respect of a BS? This is a pivotal consideration for me as I start to really determine if I can fully commit to R. Of course, he's been "tainted" by the A, but now I wonder if I can truly look at him with genuine respect at some point in the future


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## jupiter13 (Jun 8, 2012)

Respect is the hard part. As this has made me have less respect too and for me that is a BIG problem. AS he has shown no respect how can I give respect to R? I have no answer for that how do you get or give more respect when the WS has shown you and broken that trust too?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

For decades after my husband's initial affair I tried to get that respect for him back. I never did. After the resumption of his affair I decided to get out. I think respect is crucial and I lost mine for him forever decades ago. I should have gotten out then.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

GreenThumb said:


> I've been giving much thought to the respect aspect. He obviously had no respect for anyone (me, family, himself or AP) during the A. So...no respect = no love in my mind.
> 
> On top of that...I'm grappling with a lack of respect for him. Can a WS earn back the respect of a BS? This is a pivotal consideration for me as I start to really determine if I can fully commit to R. Of course, he's been "tainted" by the A, but now I wonder if I can truly look at him with genuine respect at some point in the future


Because there are some similarities in our situations (though I'm a little further along in the process), I thought I'd share some thoughts:

I think that my WS had sunk to a low place, where he was avoiding conflict and therefore communication with me, and didn't care enough about himself, me, or our marriage to put forth the effort to deal with difficult topics. He had also become "grumpy" enough to "train" me such that if I wanted to broach a couple difficult topics, it wouldn't be pleasant, so I was backing off from certain topics, too. 

So day to day things were relatively "fine" and we were even affectionate, but under the surface, there were things we both wanted to say but didn't. I could cope with that, but for someone with some mental health issues, it was eating away at him and his method of "coping" was to seek some kind of ego boost and sexual "comfort" from the OW. 

I'm not convinced that his lack of respect for me at that time (and lack of self-respect, because now he's really ashamed of his behavior) necessarily means he didn't love me. A lot of people on TAM believe someone having an affair cannot possibly love their spouse. But I think my WS did love me, and didn't want our marriage to end, but he was so messed up (as he puts in, not in his "right mind"), he just gave up on trying to do what seemed too difficult (communicate tough stuff) and looked elsewhere to "self-medicate" (it was all about HIM feeling better).

IN NO WAY am I excusing what he did! There is no excuse for infidelity. I am simply seeking to be understanding of what kind of messed up place he was in in his head at that time. And I'm suggesting that lack of respect for us may not necessarily mean that our spouses no longer loved us when they were cheating. They had to be good at compartmentalizing, but I believe they could still love us.

As for having genuine respect for your WS, some successful reconcilers have found they've been able to get to that place. I'm finding that I respect the effort that my WS is putting into MC, but we have a long way to go and he has a lot of work to do before I'll have something nearing the kind of respect I had for him before the affair.

FYI, our counselor has asked us to hold off on discussions at home about the affair for now. He says we need to learn more about how to "de-escalate" and work more on our communication, plus have our individual sessions with him first, because it's likely to be pretty unpleasant if we try to do it now (we had told him about some of our attempts, and while most were difficult, some were downright disastrous).


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Best of luck, GT. I don't envy you either the waiting time with the VAR running or having to listen to it. I very much hope for you that it is clean. Not everyone continues to lie. I'm hoping for your sake that your WH is sincere in his desire to reconcile.


alteDame, 

First VAR was clean; erased and put fresh batteries in for round two 

We spent two full days together this weekend and it was nice other than a few triggers. He consoled me as best as he knows how and broke down once when I had what I now call a "cleansing cry". 

I really want to get the MC ball rolling. I put that squarely in his lap today before he left.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Glad to hear it!

Baby steps. Restoring trust and respect after such betrayal requires years, they say. 

Keep checking in with us. One day at a time. Before you know it, life is livable again.....


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

GreenThumb said:


> I really want to get the MC ball rolling. I put that squarely in his lap today before he left.


Love it. :smthumbup:
Crossing my fingers.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Hope this trend continues


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

GreenThumb said:


> Update:
> Still in IC and looking for MC counselors so that WH and I can begin working on the communication issues. We have been able to spend time together with limited negative interactions. I still cry often when I'm with him, but that is stemmed in sadness. However, last night we had a major blow-up which clearly highlighted we need the MC.
> 
> WH has yet to answer the "HOW" he could betray me if he loves me as he claims he does. All he can offer me is, "I'm a bad person. Only a bad person could do this to the people he loves." Again, I'm not satisfied with this as it's a blanket statement. This was the impetus of last night's blow-up.
> ...


That’s exactly correct .You are trying to rationalize something that can’t be explained or rationalized.

I married my HS Sweetheart. She is perfect girl, wife, mother, and lover. Beautiful, smart, cute., loving and faithful.

Get it ??

I still fvcked it up cheated lied and betrayed

Still don’t know WHY !!

Seeking validation is the best I can come up with:scratchhead:


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Well...coming up on our 27th wedding anniversary and frankly, don't feel much like celebrating. Any advice on how to navigate this day?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

This is a hard one. Perhaps just a quiet dinner? Something low-key to reflect the uncertainty of the M? What does your WH say?


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> This is a hard one. Perhaps just a quiet dinner? Something low-key to reflect the uncertainty of the M? What does your WH say?


Well...we settled for a Chinese restaurant we went to for one of our first dates. No cards, no gifts, very subdued. We both cried frequently the 24 hours before and day of, but simply comforted each other. Second VAR was clean and placed a third one with fresh batteries in his car today. We have our first MC session scheduled...day by day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

Third VAR was clean :smthumbup: and we had our first MC session today. Didn't really make much headway as it was an initial consult. Placing the fourth VAR in the car this week before this coming weekend apart. Another "test" of sorts for WH. Hoping he passes with flying colors, but I'm prepared to fly myself if he falters .

I'm feeling kind of numb lately . IC thinks it may be a protective wall I'm building to insulate myself against future betrayals. Not sure it that's the case or I'm simply grappling with the my respect (or lack thereof) for WH. :scratchhead: Maybe it's a little of both and this feeling of continual limbo that's tiring me.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

The news on the VAR is good. I can also easily see your point about your feeling perhaps like you have lost respect for your H. Is he living at home? After a PA like his, it may be a long slog for you & you have to be prepared for a wide array of feelings and moods. I hope he can prove himself to you. Your feelings may never be exactly the same, but you may discover that your mending heart will let you live with your 'new' marriage.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> The news on the VAR is good. I can also easily see your point about your feeling perhaps like you have lost respect for your H. Is he living at home? After a PA like his, it may be a long slog for you & you have to be prepared for a wide array of feelings and moods. I hope he can prove himself to you. Your feelings may never be exactly the same, but you may discover that your mending heart will let you live with your 'new' marriage.


AlteDame,

No, he's not living at home. He's still living with his mother, but lately we've been spending most weekends together. He's making major efforts...doing things with me that he never wanted to do before the A, spurned by all of the reading we've done about our unmet needs in marriage. He's been as transparent as he can be given the separate living quarters. Occasionally we have breakdowns in communication and I revert to nasty comments about the A, fueled by my simmering anger which bubbles up in heated moments. This is another reason we are seeking MC. While I know he feels guilty, I'm not convinced he's really been introspective about how he gave himself permission to have the A (the ever elusive "How?" which I know you've directly addressed in previous thread posts). I may never get a fully developed response to "How?" and quite frankly, that scares the Hades out of me. I'm left with "What kind of man could do this to me, the family and even the AP?" and "Can I live with him, call him my husband and feel like I haven't compromised what I understand about love and marriage?"


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Glad to hear the dinner went OK. Crying and comforting each other is certainly better than conflict, so it sounds like it wasn't so bad.

The introspection piece - yes, I know what you mean. We've had a few MC sessions now, and my WS has only just begun to look inside, and it seems to me that process is going as slow as molasses in January. But, at least there's movement.

I'm probably going to get beat up here, but I think this is something that a lot of men aren't really used to doing. The whole look within and explore areas of personal weakness and discuss thing - not a traditionally comfortable place for men to go.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I was going to give a book to my husband that I'd highlighted, and I was only going to ask him to read the highlighted parts. And the book is really short too (How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by Linda J MacDonald). He has barely gotten through 5 pages. I really don't want to hound him about it (mainly because our MC suggested we not talk about the affair just yet). But I'm disappointed that this seems to be SO difficult.

I will say he has resumed his almost daily apologies to me - the frequency had started to drop off until I gave him that book - and every time he apologizes, I tell him how much that helps me. He apologizes sincerely, a little differently each time - it really does help, and I can tell he means it. I tell him he doesn't have to worry about bringing up the subject because it's probably on my mind anyway.

I think about what's going on as a long haul process. Rebuilding trust, feeling close again - it's going to take a long time. 

I hope your MC is good - I feel very good about ours, as he has helped to get my WS to start to talk about some difficult stuff. Not affair related, but we're working up to that. The counselor's plan is for us to be able to talk about highly charged topics in a new way - where we both feel safe - before we go there.


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## jupiter13 (Jun 8, 2012)

My WH has had a very hard time reading anything that has to do with repairing the marriage. (he can read anything else that is interesting to him) In 2 years he is only 1 book and 1/4 of "his needs her needs" He even complains about the love bank and how many times they mention it. I'm sick of the avoiding the hard questions. He just don't get it. you are lucky he apologizes so much I could count on one hand the times mine has. Yet he does all these things he thinks shows me he's committed love me etc. if he really knew how it doesn't help at all. I'm triggering tonight and should have stayed out of this but you are lucky you WW is showing you how he feels.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> Glad to hear the dinner went OK. Crying and comforting each other is certainly better than conflict, so it sounds like it wasn't so bad.
> 
> The introspection piece - yes, I know what you mean. We've had a few MC sessions now, and my WS has only just begun to look inside, and it seems to me that process is going as slow as molasses in January. But, at least there's movement.
> 
> ...


Hopeful, 

I agree with you about men generally not tending to be naturally introspective. My WH told me yesterday that's he's trying to wipe the A, AP from his memory and instead focus on us. While I appreciate his "focus", I'm not sure that's possible or even healthy. I wonder just how he can switch his focus and energy seemingly on a dime.This is a point we will most likely discuss in MC at some time in the future. There are moments when I see and speak to him that he seems intrinsically changed by the A, but then I reason that its my perception of him that's changed instead. Moments like those also highlight how keenly aware I am if his behaviors post-A compared to pre and during A. 

We have read so many books and are currently reading the love languages devotional bible together. He's earnestly trying in this area. I think I mentioned that it was he who got the first book shortly after DDay, even before I began speaking to him about three weeks later; he told me he was reading it and suggested I might if I was open to it. 

He also apologizes nearly every day, and it feels genuine. He doesnt use different ways to say it like yours. i might find that refreshing. However, as genuine as he sounds, I am leery as he's made a fool of me already. 

I've also got my young adult children in the mix. Both are talking to their dad when he initiates, but are not anxious for us to reconcile. They've both told me that they respect whatever I choose to do which really means "I'm hurt and can't understand why you'd consider taking his sorry a$$ back." IC is helping me deal with this aspect as my children are far too precious to me to damage my relationships with them. 

MC seems like a good fit so far.


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## GreenThumb (Jul 5, 2013)

jupiter13 said:


> My WH has had a very hard time reading anything that has to do with repairing the marriage. (he can read anything else that is interesting to him) In 2 years he is only 1 book and 1/4 of "his needs her needs" He even complains about the love bank and how many times they mention it. I'm sick of the avoiding the hard questions. He just don't get it. you are lucky he apologizes so much I could count on one hand the times mine has. Yet he does all these things he thinks shows me he's committed love me etc. if he really knew how it doesn't help at all. I'm triggering tonight and should have stayed out of this but you are lucky you WW is showing you how he feels.



Jupiter, 
So sorry to hear about your triggers. Of course you know you're not alone, even though it may seem that way at times. The last time I triggered, I cried so hard I could barely catch my breath; WH was there to see, hear and feel the pain. He often will cry in response saying he's ruined everything. I can't argue that point 

I hope you and your WH work together in a positive direction. I'm praying for you...for God to give you strength.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> I'm probably going to get beat up here, but I think this is something that a lot of men aren't really used to doing. The whole look within and explore areas of personal weakness and discuss thing - not a traditionally comfortable place for men to go.


I see nobody beat you up on that. I'm a guy, and I think you're right. For most guys. however, I think if you scratch below the surface of thinking men, you will find much introspection and thought about their lives and the live of people around them who they love. I do that, and not even as much as I think about doing it. It's just a natural course of thought for me. I do know some pretty rough and tumble guys who you wouldn't suspect of such levels of introspection, but the flannel-wearing, gun-toting guys out there are every bit as capable and willing as the intellectual, glasses-wearing argyle socks crowd (I don't use the term "metro male" ugh). 

But having said that, and going along with your comment about traditional "man-think" -- not going there -- I agree. There's some of it that happens and is never shared, and there's some of it that the guys are just walking c0cks and really don't think about much else. 

There's a female version as well, with a different description, but that's not who we're talking about. I thought I'd toss that in there to possibly provoke more thought on the subject.


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