# Trying to discuss issues with wife....



## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

So, I attempted to talk to my wife regarding the whole "go get a BJ from someone else" and ensured she knew it wasnt about the sexual act (she never wants to talk about sex with anyone). So, I get to the point where I am telling her that I see her interactions with her friends and our family and I am not getting talked to in the same manner and therefore feel like she treats them better... she then proceeds to tell me that its just another thing I am saying that she is doing wrong. She cited not enough sex as another thing she was doing wrong. She started to get emotional and so I stopped the conversation. What the hell am I supposed to say to her? It's like she doesnt care about what I am trying to say or how I feel.

link to other thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/122786-wife-said-i-could-get-bjs-other-women.html


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> So, I attempted to talk to my wife regarding the whole "go get a BJ from someone else" and ensured she knew it wasnt about the sexual act (she never wants to talk about sex with anyone). So, I get to the point where I am telling her that I see her interactions with her friends and our family and I am not getting talked to in the same manner and therefore feel like she treats them better... she then proceeds to tell me that its just another thing I am saying that she is doing wrong. She cited not enough sex as another thing she was doing wrong. She started to get emotional and so I stopped the conversation. What the hell am I supposed to say to her? It's like she doesnt care about what I am trying to say or how I feel.
> 
> link to other thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/122786-wife-said-i-could-get-bjs-other-women.html


Of course she doesn't care about what you're trying to say or how you feel. Haven't you been paying attention?

Look, if this were a miscommunication with your wife, then a conversation would fix it. It's not. It's about your wife taking you for granted, not respecting you, and mistreating you. She knows exactly what she's doing. She just hopes you don't. So, when you talk to her about it, she shouts you down by becoming emotional.

That's why you need to keep your adversarial conversations short. Like two minutes in length. They shouldn't even be conversations. They should be notifications. Your communication should be nonverbal. You should be pulling away from your wife and not doing the things she wants you to do. When she asks you why your behavior has changed, you just notify her that, because she refuses to meet your needs, you feel no obligation to meet hers. Period. Then you leave, before she can start crying and accusing you of being the bad guy. That's just manipulation.

When you get back, she will probably want to talk more. Fine. Let her. But only her actions will affect your actions. Words are meaningless. Remember, the 180 says believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see.

Just keep running the MAP.

Good luck.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Of course she doesn't care about what you're trying to say or how you feel. Haven't you been paying attention?
> 
> Look, if this were a miscommunication with your wife, then a conversation would fix it. It's not. It's about your wife taking you for granted, not respecting you, and mistreating you. She knows exactly what she's doing. She just hopes you don't. So, when you talk to her about it, she shouts you down by becoming emotional.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Excellent advise! It appears that is suffering no consequences for her behavior and it's time to make it happen. To drift away. To pretend you don't care. To find other outside interests. No more confrontations until she decides to address her issues. If she starts up being difficult, simply walk away. Do not weaken.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

4 years and my wife still won't talk about our issues. I've taken all of this advice given so far to no avail. I'll just agree with the "notification" strategy. Since she wont talk, that's all you can do anyhow. Then pull a 180. Fix you. She isn't going to help anyhow.

It's awful, isn't it? I haven't read that linked thread yet. Probably won't bother. I'm pretty sure my answer there will be the same as this anyhow: She doesn't love you so she doesn't care. That's the problem in my marriage anyhow. And yours seems A LOT like mine (except her agreeing to let me get BJ's outside the marriage. Kudos for that).


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

She repeatedly tells me she loves me, I did pull back from doing things over the past 3 days, and she called me out saying "you havent done anything to help me, you didnt pack the kids lunches (like I normally would), or feed them supper, blah blah", and so is my only reason I can say to her "your not respecting my feelings" ..? I mean I seriously told her that I saw her resolve a conflict with MY mother (whom she claims to hate) in a reasonable tone of voice with no adverse accusatory remarks and literally watched her solve the issue peacefully. I told her that I get the 3rd degree right from the getgo, and why can't she treat me like that.... she just got defensive and didnt remember the situation.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MrK said:


> 4 years and my wife still won't talk about our issues. I've taken all of this advice given so far to no avail. I'll just agree with the "notification" strategy. Since she wont talk, that's all you can do anyhow. Then pull a 180. Fix you. She isn't going to help anyhow.
> 
> It's awful, isn't it? I haven't read that linked thread yet. Probably won't bother. I'm pretty sure my answer there will be the same as this anyhow: She doesn't love you so she doesn't care. That's the problem in my marriage anyhow. And yours seems A LOT like mine (except her agreeing to let me get BJ's outside the marriage. Kudos for that).



MrK, why are you still with this woman??




McMuffin said:


> So, I attempted to talk to my wife regarding the whole "go get a BJ from someone else" and ensured she knew it wasnt about the sexual act (she never wants to talk about sex with anyone). So, I get to the point where I am telling her that I see her interactions with her friends and our family and I am not getting talked to in the same manner and therefore feel like she treats them better... she then proceeds to tell me that its just another thing I am saying that she is doing wrong. She cited not enough sex as another thing she was doing wrong. She started to get emotional and so I stopped the conversation. What the hell am I supposed to say to her? It's like she doesnt care about what I am trying to say or how I feel.
> 
> link to other thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/122786-wife-said-i-could-get-bjs-other-women.html


It isnt "like" she doesnt care...she DOESNT care. I agree with the advice to stop doing for her, as she does not care to meet your needs. Pull away. I think you need to have a come to Jesus meeting soon.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

So should I just do nothing but go to the gym, or play a video game? Sign up for some online classes? I kind of did this over the last few days, just sat around (cleaning up my stuff and some of kids stuff) and played a video game (out of the norm for me). I could see how upset she was just by walking around and the quick glances in my direction.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

On a different note, Saturday night, she went to a concert after church then called me when it was over saying she was going to the bar.... and I said, ok, enjoy hanging with your friends, just dont close down the bar (i.e. 1:30am) and guess what? She didnt get home till 1:40am, but woke me up for duty sex, and I took it... I know, wrong of me to accept it. I tried talking to her on Sunday afternoon about why she closed it down when I asked her not to, and she only responded with, "well you could have used your hand last night!" I honestly didnt know what to say after that... I am not good with arguing with her obviously.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

McMuffin said:


> On a different note, Saturday night, she went to a concert after church then called me when it was over saying she was going to the bar.... and I said, ok, enjoy hanging with your friends, just dont close down the bar (i.e. 1:30am) and guess what? She didnt get home till 1:40am, but woke me up for duty sex, and I took it... I know, wrong of me to accept it. I tried talking to her on Sunday afternoon about why she closed it down when I asked her not to, and she only responded with, "well you could have used your hand last night!" I honestly didnt know what to say after that... I am not good with arguing with her obviously.


You let her deflect the question. You shouldn't do that. "Don't change the subject, I asked you a question."

Learn to argue more effectively by keeping on topic.

And for the record, she woke YOU up. You didn't come to her for sex.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Yes, but I think she did it because she knew I would be upset that she stayed out when I asked her not to. And I did ASK her not to, I didnt tell her not to. I have my truck that I can finish working on, I can go to the gym, hang out with a buddy, or play a video game. I feel like I should become less available really...?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> She repeatedly tells me she loves me,


So what? Words are cheap. When her actions match her words, then you can believe her.



> I did pull back from doing things over the past 3 days, and she called me out saying "you havent done anything to help me, you didnt pack the kids lunches (like I normally would), or feed them supper, blah blah", and so is my only reason I can say to her "your not respecting my feelings" ..?


What you tell her is that you are re-calibrating your effort in the marriage to match hers. If she spends 60 hours a week working, doing things for the kids, cooking, cleaning, and whatever else, then you should not be spending 90 hours a week doing similar tasks.



> I mean I seriously told her that I saw her resolve a conflict with MY mother (whom she claims to hate) in a reasonable tone of voice with no adverse accusatory remarks and literally watched her solve the issue peacefully. I told her that I get the 3rd degree right from the getgo, and why can't she treat me like that.... she just got defensive and didnt remember the situation.


Of course not. I doubt she will remember any situation that doesn't portray her positively. That's no surprise. But it doesn't change anything.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

McMuffin said:


> Yes, but I think she did it because she knew I would be upset that she stayed out when I asked her not to. And I did ASK her not to, I didnt tell her not to. I have my truck that I can finish working on, I can go to the gym, hang out with a buddy, or play a video game. I feel like I should become less available really...?


It doesn't matter. You let her talk herself right out of being held accountable for something SHE did to upset you. And sex doesn't fix that. She thinks it will (and will likely use it again) but in truth it DOESN'T fix anything.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> So should I just do nothing but go to the gym, or play a video game? Sign up for some online classes? I kind of did this over the last few days, just sat around (cleaning up my stuff and some of kids stuff) and played a video game (out of the norm for me). I could see how upset she was just by walking around and the quick glances in my direction.


Don't do nothing. Do about as much as she does. And you focus on yourself and your kids. Treat her like a roommate. Don't be rude. Don't be hurt. Just be polite and busy doing your own thing.

If you cook dinner for yourself and the kids, go ahead and cook for her too. It's not any extra effort. But that's the thing. Don't put any extra effort in for her benefit. Especially on the things that are important to her.

Don't just sit around the house doing nothing. That's being too passive-aggressive. Get out. Take the kids and hit the park. After dark, let her put the kids to bed while you go out by yourself, or with friends. Just go "out".

And yes, it will upset her. She can sense that she's losing power. Nobody likes that. She will probably make several plays to get it back. They won't be sincere. She wants the power back.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> Yes, but I think she did it because she knew I would be upset that she stayed out when I asked her not to. And I did ASK her not to, I didnt tell her not to.


That's a mistake. Don't ask her for anything. Would you ask a roommate to be home at a reasonable hour? Of course not. When your roommate tells you he's going out, you tell him to have fun. Then you go to bed and don't worry about him.

I don't think there's anything wrong with accepting her duty sex. You're honestly in a no-win situation. If you decline the sex, she knows that she has hurt you. If you accept, you prove yourself desperate enough to accept awful sex. So, accept it. At least you can climax that way.



> I have my truck that I can finish working on, I can go to the gym, hang out with a buddy, or play a video game. I feel like I should become less available really...?


Exactly. Be less available. If she wants access to you, she needs to be available herself. Match her efforts.

Run the MAP and study MEM's thermostat method.

Good luck.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> She repeatedly tells me she loves me,


As did my wife for 10+ years until I realized it was a lie. Just sayin'. 

This board is littered with the corpses of "I didn't see it coming" husbands who had NO IDEA their wives had checked out years prior.

A woman is going to give permission to get extra curricular BJ's to someone they are in love with? Maybe, but not you combined with your other issues. It all adds up to something else.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

hmmm, im stepping up the monitoring, but I dont see the availablity in her schedule for anything extra cirricular...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You guys are made for each other. You're both all talk no action.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

how do you mean workingonme?


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Muffin-

As I said in your other thread, My wife is just like yours, even telling me to have sex with other women. 

What everybody is saying about the 180, go ouit, spend time on hobbies.... I am doing that and it has't changed my wife at all. It has helped me cope better though.

I do get out a lot. I joined two meetup groups, I have lunch dates with women, I've gone to the movies a few times alone and didn't tell my wif3e. My daughter was at a friends b-day party and I din't want to spend that time with my wife.

If you wife is like mine, nothing you do will change her desire. What I realize now is that I no longer :need: sex from my wife. I'd rather jack off now.

I do realize that vother women are attractedb to me. For years, my confidence was pretty krappy.

I think I am close to taking my wife up on her suggestion of another women.Is it my morals all messed up or is it my wife's for suggesting sex with another women.

I didn't really know what people meant by working on yourself. I do now and I have made many changes. I am still sad because I a prinoner of my marriage.

Why not do things with the kids. That may be what she wants you to do anyway.

Saturday, I plan to go on another 10 mile hike with about 50 people. It took me 2 days to recover rfrom the last hike. I had so much fun and met some people.. i can't wait.

Do something fun for yourself. It may not change your wife, but at least you will feel better about yourself.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Wow Trickster, I'm sorry to hear that your wife hasn't changed. I don't think that I could go on like that. However, I have the books suggested all over this forum do I'm going to start working hard on me, and read these books and apply. If my wife makes no effort, then I'm out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

McMuffin said:


> I did pull back from doing things over the past 3 days, and she called me out saying "you havent done anything to help me, you didnt pack the kids lunches (like I normally would), or feed them supper, blah blah", and so is my only reason I can say to her "your not respecting my feelings" ..?


You could respond this way: "that's just another thing you are saying that I'm doing wrong" (the same response she gives to you). 

It sounds childish, but sometimes people don't realize how annoying their deflections are until they see them from the other side.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> Wow Trickster, I'm sorry to hear that your wife hasn't changed...If my wife makes no effort, then I'm out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She won't. They rarely do. A big part of the 180 is to do it for YOU. If they see a change and want to come along, great. Problem is, while you are out doing your own thing and ignoring her, she gets what she wants. A life without you.

One of the most amazing things I still can't get over is the disparity between the HUGE problem of walk-away-wives and SO LITTLE research has been done to understand it. NOBODY is talking about it. So people come on here and don't get it.

We really need to start talking about this in the greater society, not just relationship forums.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MrK, how much longer to YOU plan to continue to live in YOUR miserable situation? Same question for Trickster. I am sure that McMuffin does not wish to live this way for the next several years. I guess I just dont understand the WHY. There is a much happier world out there.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Life is a tradeoff. The burden of leaving and destroying my family is not worth it. Plus, all I;m missing is sex and someone to want me. I'm not going to get that by leaving her. I'm 50+, bald and a little soft in the middle. I at least get pity sex ocassionally now. That's better than the nothing I'll get when I leave. 

I'm as happy as I can be considering my situation. I've done the 180 pretty well. I go out. I go to concerts. I go out with friends. She does too. I have a roomate. That's all I'd get if I leave, but I'm here with my kids now. I've made mistakes. Life will never be perfect for me. I'm now living what I feel is the best alternative.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

3Xnocharm said:


> MrK, how much longer to YOU plan to continue to live in YOUR miserable situation? Same question for Trickster. I am sure that McMuffin does not wish to live this way for the next several years. I guess I just dont understand the WHY. There is a much happier world out there.


For me, for years, my confidence was shot. All that has changed in the past six months, when I finally accepted that my wife will not change.

I am not necessarly waiting for an affair to be able to leave my wife because I know that relationship will never work out long term. 

What I do know is that I can attract other women. MrK as well as Mcmuffin may be the same. I am not cheating, even though my wife says I can have sex with other women. I am definately testing the waters. I am able to flirt with confidence.

I know I may not have the emotional conection with my wife as well as any future affair partner. At least with an affair partner, I may have the chance for mutually satisifying physical sex. That may be bad advice for McMuffin though.

I wish I had the why answer. Why can't I leave right now? think I am doing it very slowly.


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## BLACKSCORPIO (Aug 8, 2013)

Hi Mr. K, McMuffin and Trickster;

I was your wife. In a sense I still am. I checked out emotionally on my husband about 8 years ago. I had and EA that has now stopped. I did not want sex with him. I got offended when he mentioned his needs. I wanted him to find someone else and just leave me the hell alone. 

Well he did not leave me alone. he kept pestering me about our relationship and lack of emotional connection and unfulfilling sex. He just would not relent. We argued and I got defensive. He did not care. That pissed me off. Why wont he just leave me alone I would think.

Fast forward to today. I am still checked out emotionally, but I am truly trying to reconnect with him. When I allow myself to relax sex is amazing with him. 

My eyes are starting to open and I am starting to understand him. This man love me and will do whatever it takes to keep me in his life.

I am so blessed to have him and I want to reconnect and not be a walk away wife any longer. 

Not sure where I am going with this, but to say if you love her dont give up yet. My husband did not. We have hard days but we keep plugging away at it. 

There is no one in this world that I trust more than him. He is my children's father, my lover and he wants to be my friend again. Maybe, just maybe youf wife will come around like I am finally doing.

If my husband had gave up on me......I dont know where we would be.

If you love her keep at it!!!!!!!!!


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

BLACKSCORPIO said:


> I wanted him to find someone else and just leave me the hell alone.
> 
> Well he did not leave me alone. he kept pestering me about our relationship and lack of emotional connection and unfulfilling sex. He just would not relent. We argued and I got defensive. He did not care. That pissed me off. Why wont he just leave me alone I would think.


Honey? Is that you? Kidding. That is EXACTLY where my wife is today. You had me going. For a second.



BLACKSCORPIO said:


> Fast forward to today. *I am still checked out emotionally*, but I am truly trying to reconnect with him.


That bold part has me hesitating again. 

You know what the hardest part of the whole thing was? Mourning the end of my marriage. A mourning period where I had no one to turn to for comfort. I did it on my own. It was hard. VERY hard. And I'm not fully recovered yet. The harsh pain is gone, but I still mourn what I lost. I will find it VERY difficult to give my heart and soul to her again. I'm just starting to come out of it all. I'm living my life again without her. I don't think I can set myself up for that kind of pain and rejection again.


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## BLACKSCORPIO (Aug 8, 2013)

Mr. K i understand you feeling that way that i am still a little emotionally distant. But I have decided today that I am all in. Heart, soul, body. I am giving him everything I have to offer no holding back.

I am a little aftaid to let him back into my heart, but I am going to do it. So i am emotionally checking back in. 

Someone mentioned yesterday to give it you allf or 6 months and if you still don;t love him leave.

Well i am going full force for the love of my life I want that emotional connection back again!!


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

BLACKSCORPIO said:


> I am a little afraid to let him back into my heart, but I am going to do it. So i am emotionally checking back in...
> 
> ...I want that emotional connection back again!!


The difference between you and me is that you hold the cards, I don't.

Example: Early on in our "reconciliation" process, I was having trouble. Maybe it was back before I didn't fully understand the depth of her disconnect. I was doing things wrong. When they didn't go perfectly, I'd get a little weird. Start pulling back. 

Well, one day she said to me, and I'm paraphrasing: "I can't do this any more. One day you act like you want me and another you don't. I'm not trying any more".

See where that went? Brand new knife to the heart, with a big twist for effect. I can't do it. I hope it works out for you guys, but I'm out. And she won't care. See the difference?


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

McMuffin. I hope you are not ignoring this conversation because you think it's a threadjack. We are talking about you just as much as ourselves right now.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MrK said:


> Life is a tradeoff. The burden of leaving and destroying my family is not worth it. *Plus, all I;m missing is sex and someone to want me. I'm not going to get that by leaving her. I'm 50+, bald and a little soft in the middle. I at least get pity sex ocassionally now. That's better than the nothing I'll get when I leave. *
> 
> I'm as happy as I can be considering my situation. I've done the 180 pretty well. I go out. I go to concerts. I go out with friends. She does too. I have a roomate. That's all I'd get if I leave, but I'm here with my kids now. I've made mistakes. Life will never be perfect for me. I'm now living what I feel is the best alternative.


I think you are selling yourself short, here. Just sayin.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Well last night she brought up me not doing too much around the house and I used the line about matching her level of effort to the marriage... the conversation didnt hit her as hard as I would have liked it to, but I could see her wheels turning. Going to work on my truck tonight and see if she comes out to the shop and tries to "talkl" to me again... any advice for tonight, she is very defensive and I would love to be able to win a few arguements.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

McMuffin-

Even if you win an argument, you still loose the battle. That's my experience.

Every time I go jogging, meet with a couple of friends, or go to the animal shelter to volunteer, she let me know in her passive ways that I am spending too much time away from our daughter.

I am the cook around here. So when I backed off on that, I punish myself. lol She is getting better at that.

Eve when I wash clothes, I'll wash my clothes as well as my daughters and just throw in a couple of thing of my wife's to make it seem like I am not avoiding hers on purpose...She sees right through as well and it creates more resentments.

She doesn't shoe affection, so I stopped. That doesn't seem to matter for her either.

You may now win an argument Mcmuffin. My wife acts like nothing is really a big deal. It seems like she is on Valium all the time.

I still do my part around the house and then some. I also take more time for myself. That's all I can do.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> Going to work on my truck tonight and see if she comes out to the shop and tries to "talkl" to me again... any advice for tonight, she is very defensive and I would love to be able to win a few arguements.


As the computer in War Games said, "The only way to win is not to play."

If you think you're going to debate your wife into having enthusiastic sex with you, you're crazy. I'm betting that the debate team weren't the guys getting all the hot chicks at your high school/college. There's a reason for that.

Just remember that you're not debating. You're not negotiating. This is a take it, or leave it offer. Either you both get your needs met, or neither of you does.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Good advice. Going to start working on me again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I vote for - do as much as she does. Keep standing up to her. Don't back down from her defensiveness. I think you are doing well.

I like that you are working on your truck. Very competent. 

I wouldn't play video games and do nothing. Never give her the impression that you are not your own man and a self starter. be in control and call her out as soon as she gets a tone with you. Simply do not stand for it. 

You can do that in a calm way respectful way The way you want her to speak to you. My husband rarely yells. Sometimes he scares me he is so calm. 

He has no more leverage over me than you have over your wife. He just thinks too much of himself to allow any BS. You should too. 

I wonder if your wife would feel more like she can depend on you to take care of yourself her and the kids if you did not back down? 

It cant hurt. You will not get her to respect you by being too nice.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Well, today, she washed my muddy clothes from the tough mudder race, she had to wash them 3 times. I come home from picking up our oldest daughter from basketball practice, and she rudely demanded that I go and clean the washer so that she could do another load or two. She did this inside in front of the kids, so I asked her not to be so rude and that she was being disrespectful. She kept on, so I walked away. She was in the kitchen getting the kids some supper, and the whole time saying "sure I'll get you guys something to eat while your dad sits on his ass in the living room." I didn't respond. Later I follow her outside and asked her why she chose to be so disrespectful, of course she got defensive and started bringing up other stuff. I explained that had she just been nice about it, I would have willingly went and cleaned it out. We argued some more, and she made the comment that she could do all this herself and that she didn't need me. I then asked her if she was threatening me, she said no, and then one of our friends pulled in our driveway so we didn't discuss it any further. 

What should I make of this? And how should I deal with her comment about not needing me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

I gave her the cold shoulder last night and went to bed early. I didnt tell her I love you or even let her know. I'm kind of at a loss for words, and a little pissed off. Brung my MMSLP to work today....


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## petethemug (Oct 7, 2013)

I actually find myself agreeing and set this into motion myself today. For weeks I have been making my wife posh food. Salmon and Egg benedict and steak. Then one morning she has made herself waffles, Did she pop in my office and say "hey bunny, do you wanna waffle"? You bet your arse she didn't. So I had a talk to her and oh boy she hit the roof. I backed of and said hey no worries and now I have not done anything for her, just cooked myself something delicious, she goes into one saying, all this over waffles.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Well, I'm going to stop getting her beer and cigarrettes. I will renew my gym membership today also.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> I come home from picking up our oldest daughter from basketball practice, and she rudely demanded that I go and clean the washer so that she could do another load or two. She did this inside in front of the kids, so I asked her not to be so rude and that she was being disrespectful. She kept on, so I walked away. She was in the kitchen getting the kids some supper, and the whole time saying "sure I'll get you guys something to eat while your dad sits on his ass in the living room."


This really isn't, or shouldn't be, unexpected. Your wife is used to walking all over you. You have given her a short-term glimpse of a future where she is no longer able to do that. And that scares her.

The predictable result is that she takes her bullying up a few notches. Since you've buckled under in the past to moderate pressure, it's logical to think that you will buckle under now to severe pressure.



> What should I make of this? And how should I deal with her comment about not needing me?


She's trying to pressure you and you're still trying to debate her. You need to constantly tell yourself to set your own frame. This isn't a debate. This is you being the new you. She will have to adjust.

Now, obviously you have to have a relatively short tolerance for the severe level of disrespect she's showing you. Especially in front of your kids. You obviously don't want an altercation in front of them. However, you also don't want to model a marriage where the wife berates the husband and the husband meekly takes it.

I suggest you continue your MAP as diligently as possible. The final stage of the MAP is an ultimatum. So, if she continues to treat you so poorly, you may need to rush the MAP a bit and get to the ultimatum sooner, rather than later. I think that is probably the surest path to eventual happiness. Either with your wife, or with someone else.

Good luck.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> I gave her the cold shoulder last night and went to bed early. I didnt tell her I love you or even let her know. I'm kind of at a loss for words, and a little pissed off. Brung my MMSLP to work today....


Withdrawal is good. The silent treatment is bad. Giving your wife the silent treatment tells her that she still has a profound affect on you. That is a consolation prize for her. If she can't make you do what she wants, she can at least make you miserable for it.

Don't give her that power. At least, don't let her know that she has it. Be sad in your car on the way to work. Don't be sad in front of her.

Good luck.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

_*... "sure I'll get you guys something to eat while your dad sits on his ass in the living room."*_

I have a particular problem with putting the kids in the middle like this. Her directing commentary directly to the kids as a means of criticising you is :

1) Putting the kids in a very unhealthy position. I believe it can affect their self-worth as they love and relate to both of you. When one of you is belittled by the other - it is VERY similar to telling the child that some of the things they look up to and love and indeed 'are' and want to be - are bad. This is partly psychobabble - but I believe making the kids feel like, or being told that, you are a bad parent is very, very bad when it is really about simply shaming or hurting you for something she doesnt agree with. 

2) Its cowardly. If you have something to say to me - say it to me - not the kids. I you have a problem - you take it up with me, not the kids. They are not pawns to be used or tools to provide leverage for any problem you feel needs adressing. You want to argue - fine - lets do it. You start telling the kids I am a bad parent - you can pack your bags, and Im not kidding.

I would put the clamps on that behavior - and fast. You need to take her aside and directly state these things. You simply cannot have her undermining you - as a person - directly to the children. This isnt their fault - and its fvck!ng childish for her to try and draw them into that position. She needs to be reminded that sort of behavior not only does nothing to make her 'right' (or you wrong) - but puts the children in a very unhappy place that they do no deserve.

When I see this sort of thing - it actually makes me angry.

She should actually apologze to the kids for this - and tell them that both of you always love and want the best for them - and that she was wrong to say that. Sometimes when we get angry we say things we dont mean - or have not thought clearly about.

First things first though.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

It made me very angry indeed, but I walked away as I should have. I find it very hard to argue with her, if the arguement isnt going her way, she brings up other stuff. Then if she is losing she will just throw her cigarrette out in the yard (which pissed me off immensly) and walks away. If she cant win, no one will....


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

McMuffin said:


> ... but I walked away as I should have....


I disagree. You dont need to escalate things emotionally, but you should take her to the side (if you must) and insist to not directly involve the kids in that way.

The 'if you have something to say to me - say it to me - dont put the kids in the middle' thing maybe can be said out loud in front of them as well.

Its not about you and her at that point. Its about the kids. It really is about acting in their defense and not about keeping the peace with your wife. Forcing the kids to take sides in your disagreement is just plain wrong. Bigtime.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

"if the arguement isnt going her way, she brings up other stuff."

Nope. We are talking about THIS. Lets work through it and we can talk about that other thing NEXT. This isnt about who has more ammunition or complaints this is about improving the relationship - right? Lets try and actually work through a problem before going off on 3 other tangents - and yeah I realize its all wrapped up and messy and we all have issus we want to deal with - but we have to start somewhere - and somwehere is THIS.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MC,
Duty sex is fine for now. 

Hate sex is never ok. And corpse sex is a type of hate sex. 

Hate sex is: When your lower desire partner initiates and then proceeds to verbally or non-verbally convey that they wish they were not not doing it. If you are getting that:
- Stop and get out of bed (don't speak)
- She will likely ask what you are doing: just say: I will be back shortly
- Lock the bathroom door and finish yourself manually
- Come back to bed and say goodnight and go to sleep
- If she wants a conversation, shut it down with: If you have something to say, we can talk tomorrow. 





QUOTE=McMuffin;4660737]Wow Trickster, I'm sorry to hear that your wife hasn't changed. I don't think that I could go on like that. However, I have the books suggested all over this forum do I'm going to start working hard on me, and read these books and apply. If my wife makes no effort, then I'm out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I like this. The shorter version is: AFTER we resolve this issue, we can discuss anything else you want. 




QUOTE=anotherguy;4733290]"if the arguement isnt going her way, she brings up other stuff."

Nope. We are talking about THIS. Lets work through it and we can talk about that other thing NEXT. This isnt about who has more ammunition or complaints this is about improving the relationship - right? Lets try and actually work through a problem before going off on 3 other tangents - and yeah I realize its all wrapped up and messy and we all have issus we want to deal with - but we have to start somewhere - and somwehere is THIS.[/QUOTE]


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

THanks for the advice... another instance was last night. I went in our room to get ready for bed and our daughter was in our bed asleep. I went to her room where my niece is sleeping on her bed on the outside, and realized it will be virtually impossible to move her and not wake either one of the girls up. I went in the kitchen and found my wife and told her that I was just going to put our daughter on the couch, and why. Her response was "well I guess I'm just a fvck up..." I just spun around and went about my business man, I really dont know what the hell is wrong with her.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> Her response was "well I guess I'm just a fvck up..." I just spun around and went about my business man, I really dont know what the hell is wrong with her.


It's a test to gauge how invested you are in her. She's hoping you say something like, "Never say that. You're the best wife and mother in the world and we would be lost without you." That shows that you are dependent on her. She has the upper hand in the marriage.

By failing to take her bait, you've shown her that she can't get you riled up at a single phrase. Also, you didn't reassure her. Perhaps you think she is a screw up. Perhaps you think you can do better. Perhaps she should improve her behavior before you start looking to replace her.

Now, in a healthy marriage, reassuring your spouse is a good thing. If your wife screws something up and makes a comment like the one she made last night, you should jump in and reassure her that you value her. But, in a marriage like yours, you can't do that. You have to restore the balance of power in your marriage before you can behave reasonably and expect your wife to behave reasonably.

Good luck.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

McMuffin said:


> THanks for the advice... another instance was last night. I went in our room to get ready for bed and our daughter was in our bed asleep. I went to her room where my niece is sleeping on her bed on the outside, and realized it will be virtually impossible to move her and not wake either one of the girls up. I went in the kitchen and found my wife and told her that I was just going to put our daughter on the couch, and why. Her response was "well I guess I'm just a fvck up..." * I just spun around and went about my business* man, I really dont know what the hell is wrong with her.


I want to applaud the way you handled this. It surely was bait, and you didn't take it. More of this response and you'll really see something. She's not done yet.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MC,
Pht is giving you exceptional advice. 

You are changing the power dynamic in the marriage which frightens your wife. That fear will mostly express as:
- Open and obvious angry behavior, because fear often expressesx as anger. 
- Conscious and subconscious attempts to hijack your emotions. It is both important and reassuring to her to know that she can still hijack your emotions. 

The deeper your acceptance of the normalcy of her response pattern, the easier it will be for you to stay calm. 

For most folks, the ingredients (in order of importance) that enable calm are:
1. Sleep 
2. Faith (deep belief that everything will eventually turn out well, one way or the other)
3. Exercise (cardio and strength)
4. Diet 

The things that will help you avoid getting tangled up in her agitated emotional state are: 
- Quickly and gracefully suspending, ending or exiting contentious conversations.
- Learning simple verbal tactics that are helpful in conflict.
- Avoiding late night conversations that may/will disrupt your sleep or hers.

Your goal in those conversations is NOT to 'win'. Your goal is to rebalance the marriage by educating her. As you have discovered this is best done by a combination of communication and consequences. By 'briefly' conveying what you want which is for her to treat you the way that she wants/expects to be treated. 

A short list of phrases are quite useful in this situation:
- Don't make me spank you. 
- Is that the tone of voice you want to use with your life partner? 
- Going forward, it would be better if .....
- Would you be ok with me treating you that way?
- I would not treat you that way.
- Why would you think I would be ok with THAT? 

Break the momentum if she starts to get aggressive/disrespectful, by saying: 
- Hold that thought, but ease up on the tone, I will be right back (break the negative momentum and give her a little time to compose herself by going to another room for a minute or two: get a drink of water, or an apple, get your glasses from the bedroom). Don't explain and don't apologize. Stick with a low key: I will be right back. 

If that doesn't work:
- This isn't constructive, lets continue later or tomorrow.
- That is not acceptable (use this phrase sparingly, and end the conversation if you don't get a proper response). If she argues with this phrase, just hold up your hand, shake your head and say: I don't think you are hearing me. And then end the discussion. 






QUOTE=McMuffin;4754634]THanks for the advice... another instance was last night. I went in our room to get ready for bed and our daughter was in our bed asleep. I went to her room where my niece is sleeping on her bed on the outside, and realized it will be virtually impossible to move her and not wake either one of the girls up. I went in the kitchen and found my wife and told her that I was just going to put our daughter on the couch, and why. Her response was "well I guess I'm just a fvck up..." I just spun around and went about my business man, I really dont know what the hell is wrong with her.[/QUOTE]






PHTlump said:


> It's a test to gauge how invested you are in her. She's hoping you say something like, "Never say that. You're the best wife and mother in the world and we would be lost without you." That shows that you are dependent on her. She has the upper hand in the marriage.
> 
> By failing to take her bait, you've shown her that she can't get you riled up at a single phrase. Also, you didn't reassure her. Perhaps you think she is a screw up. Perhaps you think you can do better. Perhaps she should improve her behavior before you start looking to replace her.
> 
> ...


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## jay1365 (May 22, 2013)

Your wife is the classic passive aggresive control freak. I suggest you do some reading about this personality type and why some men are attracted to it. Once I had this info the dynamic in our marriage reversed and we are happier now after 20 years of marriage than ever before. I realized I could not change her until I changed myself. I am going out on a limb here but I would bet you have some codependency and abandonment issues, as do I. Fix yourself first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

I will look into that Jay, because I am not sure what that passive aggressive means, but yeah, she likes to be in control.

Its funny that since I have turned down my temp, and quit initiating kisses, hugs, ILY's, or texts during the day, lately she has been doing it. She came 90% to give me a kiss yesterday expecting me to come the other 10% and I did not, pissed her off. I have been rereading books and working on myself. Been spending more time out in my shop and she called me on it last night saying that I wasnt helping her much and why. So I asked her if she was trying to talk about our relationship, and she said yes! I then told her that when she made the comment to me about doing everything herself and she didnt need me, that I made the decision to let her. I then asked her if she wanted to do it all alone, and if so, then I would go get my **** packed. She said no, but then scarcastically said, "well if your going to spend more time in your shop and not helping me, then I will continue saying it..." to which I nodded my head and went to watch some baseball. When we got into bed, she actually wanted to cuddle with me.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> THanks for the advice... another instance was last night. I went in our room to get ready for bed and our daughter was in our bed asleep. I went to her room where my niece is sleeping on her bed on the outside, and realized it will be virtually impossible to move her and not wake either one of the girls up. I went in the kitchen and found my wife and told her that I was just going to put our daughter on the couch, and why. Her response was "well I guess I'm just a fvck up..." I just spun around and went about my business man, I really dont know what the hell is wrong with her.


She being mean and bating you into an arguement. Think of your wife like someone you are not having sex with. What would you think they meant if they said this to you in a hostile way? How would you answer. Maybe something like "if you think so" or "you said it not me". If you say it calmly with no ranker. 

What else would you say? Don't speak to me like that. Just make it a request. If she wants to deny you sex that's her loss. I know it may seem the exact opposite to what you want. 

What have you got to lose? Do something different. Treat her the way you would treat anyone who is hostile. Stay in control. Fume here but don't let her bait you. Why be controlled. 

This may elevate the hostility due to the new response but keep at it. If it does not work she will stop. Try something else. When she begins to treat you well. Be nice to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> When we got into bed, she actually wanted to cuddle with me.


This is common. Sh!t testing is a common tactic used by women to gauge your fitness. High value men, who women are attracted to, pass sh!t tests more than not. Low value men, who women are not attracted to, fail them.

And this is usually done subconsciously. A woman won't trust you to handle a crisis if you can't even handle her. Once you've proven you can handle her, then she feels safer being tied to you in a relationship. Once she's safe, she's free to indulge her romantic urges.

So, continue to pass her tests. Don't get upset by them. Keep a limit on how disrespectful she can be. But, as long as she is remaining civil, just treat her tests as cute little games she needs to play.

Good luck.


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