# Stuck in an endless loop



## DonaldDuck666 (Feb 20, 2017)

So, I hope this isn't too long to follow. I have so much to say that I could write for the next hour and make you all read the rest of the day! I apologize if I'm all over the place at times. I know I'm leaving a lot of things out.

Anyway, I'm new here, btw. I'm 43, been married 13 years this coming May. We have two kids, 10 and other just turned 7. I adore the hell out of them, they are great kids and my son and I are especially close. What I'm going to say below is essentially what I had been saying about 2 or 3 years ago before I got the courage to tell her I wanted a divorce. Out of respect for the kids and her, I agreed to go to MC. We had a great therapist and she was able to get us closer and work things out. Things went fairly well for a while, we enjoyed life. But all of my lingering doubts and feelings never disappeared. I felt them lurking, but figured they would eventually go away. They haven't, and I'm feeling even more trapped in a situation than I was before. 

The issues between my wife and I go back to the very beginning. And I now think of our relationship (in my mind) as death by a thousand cuts. When we met, I had gone through a REALLY bad relationship with someone who was a Borderline (if you don't know what that disorder is, look it up - you don't ever want to deal with it, trust me) and string of demoralizing dating fiascos. About 3 months prior, I deleted all my dating profiles (this was the dark ages of online dating, btw, not the smorgasbord you find today) and told myself I had to just stop looking. I was really down. We had know each other through mutual friends, but there was never any attraction on my end. She was a tomboy, who played soccer, basketball, softball, etc. growing up and you'd swear she was a boy in some of her younger pictures. She was very conservative from top to bottom. We ran into each other at the store, she had grown up a bit and looked pretty good. We chatted a bit and that was that. Since she had just moved back to the area, I invited her over to a party we were having the following wknd (I think it was the Final Four). We spoke once by phone when she called to accept and then she asked if I wanted to go out the next weekend or something for dinner. It was, officially, our first date, but nothing romantic at all. I decided to pursue, and asked her out again a week later. I don't even remember what we did, but we ended up back at my place. Not much happened. I offered a foot massage to get things going. She obliged, but just after I started she told me that she was still a virgin. Right away, the red flags went up. This didn't exactly surprise me, but it was a real deflating moment. Needless to say, we didn't do anything else that night. In fact, there were NEVER any real sparks between us. You know when you first start dating someone, it goes great and you can't keep your hands off each other or your clothes on and it acts as sort of a bonding experience for the two of you and you? That NEVER happened. In fact...we didn't actually have sex for the first nine months. We fooled around here and there, but she was so sexually ignorant, she didn't even know that a guy ejaculated when climaxing. She grew up in a bubble, driven by her zero-sex-appeal, conservative mother. I also had issues in that we spent a LOT of time around her family. A LOT. So it felt sort of like I was dating them as well, half the time. So, "Why did you stay, you idiot?" I don't have a good answer for that, other than I had given up on finding true love after so many bad experiences - and I wasn't exactly overflowing with confidence and killing it with the ladies. I accepted that this was better than nothing, she was a good person and would make a good mom. I had my doubts then, but even my dad encouraged me to stick with her b/c she was a good person. Looking back, I realized i was never actually IN LOVE with her. I settled and went along for the ride. 

I should also mention that we really have never had much in common. I have a lot of interests. So many that I don't have enough time in the day to pursue them all. She's the opposite. She's never had a hobby. She still doesn't, really. That's been an issue we've worked on in therapy (counseling and individual). It's not as bad as it used to be, but still annoys me. Again, it indicates someone who has NO PASSION about anything. 

During this time came another one of those "cuts" I talked about earlier. As you can see, our sex life was, uh, almost non-existent. She was also a fan of granny panties. Despite what you think, I'm a VERY sexual person. I *love* sensuality and femininity in women who have that. I decided to go to VS and get her some NICE panties. Nothing crazy like g-strings. Just nice bikini briefs. Well, I never saw those panties again. She was so offended that she threw them out without ever saying anything. Overall, she was quite an insecure person, especially when it came to her sexuality and such. Again, she had virtually NO sexual history to speak of. She had only a couple of previous relationships and one of them ended when she walked in on the guy having sex with someone else (again, she wouldn't have sex). So, certainly there was some lingering emotional trauma that didn't help things.

We've always had communication issue. I'm more the guilty party on that front. But, again, it's very difficult to express your deepest desires and such for someone you simply have never felt those desires and true, passionate love for. 

Another of those cuts, and this has been an issue she's sort of tried to work on, but I don't think it's her nature, is affection. I go back to women being sensual. She doesn't have that trait. At all. We've discussed the lack of affection bothering me in the past (my love language is physical touch). And when it comes from someone who it feels either forced for or unnatural for, it feels very empty. I've had female friends/co-workers of mine (who I'll admit I'm attracted to) show me small signs of affection that just sends jolts of electricity through me. Whether it's a slight touch on the chin, rubbing my chest, or whatever. Again, I believe you have it in you or not. 

All through this, we've had two kids (who are, fortunately, very healthy and happy), many job/career changes (one thing I will say is that she has been TREMENDOUSLY supportive of me when I've decided to change careers once or twice, even when it affected us financially), a new house and whatever. 

Our sex life is...bad. Even she's acknowledging lately that it's been very sub-par and we need to step it up. But....this has often been the case. Another of those cuts: She is an AWFUL kisser. Good kissing, to me, can bring a person to their knees. I've had women in my past who were GREAT kissers, and I thought of myself as one until I got together with my wife. I'm embarrassed to say that, if I was with someone new right now, I wouldn't know how to kiss them properly. But, the lack of kissing in our relationship, I think, is another sign of passion/sensuality that doesn't exist between us. And it's not like I can tell her she's a bad kisser, especially now. I wouldn't even know how to fix that!! So, we barely ever kiss, especially during foreplay or sex. It's a very empty feeling for me and I'd rather jerk off half the time. The sex is so...lacking in desire a lot of the time, I literally clench my teeth to get through it.

I will give her credit for slowly, but surely coming around on a number of things. She has, occasionally, worn sexy underwear. Even lingerie a couple of times the past 13 years. A couple of times. :/ I've gotten her sexier underwear and she's been much more open to wearing things (again, this is all part of being sensual, erotic, etc for me and almost every woman I know does these things on a normal basis), but they eventually disappear. I got tired of being the one to have to buy everything, and she finally bought....one pair last year. She wears them all the time. I like them. But, c'mon. And here's another one of those cuts: a couple of weeks ago she wore them before we had sex...but kept her brown work socks on. I can't describe how turned off I was. 

We've gone the toy route a bit here and there. She likes one of her vibrators. But, again, it was me who had to initiate and buy this stuff. (I forgot to mention, the kinkiest she's been with me have been after we had a blowup before agreeing to go to MC and then the week after I told her I wanted a divorce. You know the joke that the only time women give you anal is when they think you're going to break up with them? It's real, folks!) 

Another issue is smell. A great-smelling woman makes me swoon. I work with a woman (who's gay, so nothing happening there) who wears a certain perfume that, if I wasn't an atheist, I would say is what heaven would smell like to me. I'm not kidding. It's one of those scents that I wish I could, literally, inhale for hours. I'm so hapy when she comes into my office and I can smell it for a while after she leaves. She's not the only one. Any woman that smells good is a turn on. I have bought my wife perfume a couple of times in the past few years. To me, if a guy buys you perfume HE WANTS YOU TO WEAR IT ALL THE TIME BECAUSE IT LIKES HOW IT SMELLS ON YOU! Yet, the only time she will use them is in her pre-sex routine in the bathroom. In fact, when I bought her the last one, I found the bottle in the downstairs bathroom. She thought I got her bathroom deodorizer for Xmas. :/ She also has bad breath almost all of the time. I usually tell her, but it's so common that it's another one of those things that wears me down and turns me off. And, I'll throw a gross one at you guys that's happened several time - including last night. I'm sure this happens to other people (I guess, but it never happened with other women I've had sex with). If we're doing it doggy-style, it's instantly noticeable if she's gone to the bathroom at some point in the day and not fully cleaned herself. It's so bad that I'll literally have to hold my breath for as long as possible in order to finish. I may be at fault for never saying anything to her about it. I don't want to embarrass her. On the flip side, this is another one of those things were I say to myself "How does a person not know to do this? You do everything you can to clean up certain areas before you have sex!" 

There's a lot more I want to say, but I've been typing this for over 2 hours now and I'm surprised if anyone is still reading. But here's sort of my bottom line: I'm attracted to feminine women, who know how to flirt, know how to be sexy and sensual. My wife is none of those (she is attractive and has a great body - more so than what I've maintained). In fact, ever since we were dating, I've had roving eyes. All of these things have added up for me, to the point I am absolutely CRAVING other women all the time. Craving everything she's never really been able to provide because it's not who she is. I've never cheated and would never hurt her like that (I had sort of an EA years ago before/after my son was born, not realizing what I was doing and ended up really hurting in the end. But it woke me up to things that I needed). But, I feel like I've circled back 3 years after we left MC in decent shape and really wanting out again. There are certain things I resent about her, but the bottom line is that I did not marry the love of my life. Not even close. And If I told her a lot of how I feel or have always felt, it would absolutely crush her, and I don't want to do that. The sticker is that I'm terrified of hurting the kids. My son, especially. Overall, we have a good life. But my feelings consume almost every waking moment for me and I don't want to go through the rest of my life like this. So, I feel completely trapped. 

I know some of you may toss me "the grass isn't always greener" line, and I appreciate that. I know, given the crazy women I've dated. I was never good at the dating thing, and I can't imagine how crazy it is now. Getting divorced would nuke our life in many ways. But I don't think it's crazy to want/crave/need to be with someone that, even on occasion, will take my breath away. Someone who I *want* to be with and not even think about anyone else. Someone I actually miss when I travel and wish they were in said country with me to share the experience instead of thinking of other women. Even for my kids' sake, I wish they could grow up seeing what a healthy, passionate, loving relationship REALLY looks like instead of two roommates that occasionally give pecks to each other. 

That's my story for now and I'm sticking to it. I hope it makes sense. Thank you for reading my novel. :/


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

I have to ask... you made this up, right?


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## DonaldDuck666 (Feb 20, 2017)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> I have to ask... you made this up, right?


No. Why would you say that?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Many of the things you say are simply hurtful to read.

There are so many insights here that I am not sure where to begin offering thoughts for reframing how one would look at such... but without your love and respect for her, they would fall into the dust of the past.


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## DonaldDuck666 (Feb 20, 2017)

Hurtful in what way? I admit I know what I SHOULD do, but just scared sh*tless. I feel guilty that anything would be taken as hurtful. I'm just being as honest as I possibly can. I'm not proud of where I'm at emotionally/mentally.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

So many of your cuts are bound to your external desires.... these may be who you are but at the same time, a commitment was made to another that you feel you cannot keep and distresses you.

You have married someone who sounds as possible that she did not have a role model to help her through many stages growing up, either through family or friends, and that role has now fallen on you husband, and it sounds like you are no longer interested in seeing it though it's course. There is naivety in so many things she does not know or perhaps even understands, and you sound as if your settled for values over attraction.

Not bad in many mindful ways... happens all over the world in many arranged marriages and love does develop from such as respect is the seed, but bad for you because it is not a seed that was nourished and now she is a big and very innocent part of your decision.

This is not all you... if you think she doesn't understand your disappointments, you may be mistaken.

In the relationship you describe, nobody is trapped... ever, because nothing is permanent, ever.

It's how we grow in that impermanence that matters...

On a scale of 1 to 10, where does your *MATURE* love fall?

The love that you truly care about her, communicate with honesty, give of yourself to improve her life (actions and things for her, not for you), remove suffering from her life, be there dependable in heart and mind and deed, demonstrate change as a positive and not a negative, look not with annoyances at your differences but with respect at them.

Love is just a word until someone gives it meaning... what did your words mean when you told her you loved her, was that person whom you used such with so unworthy of your uncertainty?

I truly hope it didn't mean she was good enough for now...

If your heart is really intent on improving this, start with unbridled honesty and compassion with her.

Do you feel she is honest with you? I am sure she has disappointments she would like to share as well... if she trusts you, she will.

This simply makes me sad for you both...

Your answers lie within you as everything you've shared is about you... are your eyes not looking at the right scenery?

If not, perhaps they could start...


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## flyhigher (Jun 23, 2016)

I agree that this is a very sad story. On one hand, I want to say.. wow, look at all that time you wasted for your poor wife. She could have found something real.. but instead, you tricked her with "fake" and "good enough" love. No one deserves that.

At the same time, I understand that you weren't in a healthy frame of mind, and did the best you could with the knowledge you had.

You're saying that you do not love your wife, and you're not sure that you ever have. Ouch. 

I think you should end this disaster, and give her a chance to find someone who will actually love her. You'll hurt her when you tell her, but I'm sad for her, and hope she can find true happiness one day.

And as for you, go find yourself. Go to therapy and figure out what you want in life; don't just go hoping into the next relationship because it doesn't sound like you desire anything REAL.. all you're talking about is physical features and sex; which is important, but it's not everything. I think you should do some soul searching and dig deeper into yourself. Start loving yourself and finding out who you are as a person.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

All I see is a long post blaming your wife for your damage, your decisions, and your clear disdain for her. 

You married someone knowing who she was and admitting you had no spark, then can't understand why she wouldn't be gung how to have sex and dress up for you. 

You came into this with a ton of baggage.

Do her a favor and leave, then get some intense counseling or you're going to continue being miserable.


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## DonaldDuck666 (Feb 20, 2017)

Those are good words to heed. I was just out driving for a bit, running errands and was trying to figure out why your first response sort of stuck in my craw. Throughout all of the adventures, I don't think "respect" ever became part of the discussion or part of my conscious thinking. So, that's something I need to think a lot more about. I'd venture to say I have NOT respected her that much, despite that she's a great person and has been very supportive. Part of me wonders if I'm simply just an a-hole.

I can't say if I am strong enough to be that open and honest with her about everything (yet). I mentioned earlier about the initial bonding. I've ALWAYS felt there was a wall or a disconnect between us. It's hard to put my finger on it or describe it well, but I've never felt as "one" with her. I've been in previous relationships where there was, at least, a period of time where that woman was my everything and other women didn't even really exist to me. I've never felt for her at that level. I've always had reservations. And I feel guilt over that, as again, she's not a bad person. She's not someone who'd be unfaithful, steal my money or whatever. I truly believe she deserves a lot. I just don't feel like I can ever give her that.

You're right about the naïveté aspect. And instead of trying to help (and I have, to a degree, I've become very resentful of it, for right or wrong). 

It is a sad situation. It's how I pretty much always feel. Just...sad.

And I agree with the others. Time for another round of therapy for myself.


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## DonaldDuck666 (Feb 20, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> All I see is a long post blaming your wife for your damage, your decisions, and your clear disdain for her.
> 
> You married someone knowing who she was and admitting you had no spark, then can't understand why she wouldn't be gung how to have sex and dress up for you.
> 
> ...


No, a lot of the fault lies with me. I'm sorry if you got that impression.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Deleted post (no longer relevant).


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

DonaldDuck666 said:


> No, a lot of the fault lies with me. I'm sorry if you got that impression.


Regarding your post, my impression is that you tried to be very honest about exactly what you are thinking and I think that you tried to paint a fair picture. After reading the first half on your post, I could understand why you want to get out. However, in the 2nd half, you mentioned that she now is willing to wear sexy lingerie and does make some attempts to improve your sex life. You imply that she is a nice person and that she is physically attractive. Therefore, she does have some really good things going for her. 

The part about being turned off when she wore work socks along with something sexy seems like overkill. I completely understand that she doesn't have the feminine seductiveness that you long for and doesn't have much passion when kissing. Those qualities are also wonderful, but I would not trade them for the qualities that she does have. My concern for you would be that you might regret very much losing this lady. Of course if there are more negative issues about her or her feelings of love and romance, it would affect my advice.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

This is SO sad.

Your wife has done nothing wrong, she has just been herself.
You have roving eyes, nose etc.

It's hard to say if you truly never loved her, or if you are rewriting history like so many that fall out of love over the years and need to rationalize.

A lot of people are going to be hurt over this. I'm so sad to even consider that....


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## DonaldDuck666 (Feb 20, 2017)

Steve1000 said:


> Regarding your post, my impression is that you tried to be very honest about exactly what you are thinking and I think that you tried to paint a fair picture. After reading the first half on your post, I could understand why you want to get out. However, in the 2nd half, you mentioned that she now is willing to wear sexy lingerie and does make some attempts to improve your sex life. You imply that she is a nice person and that she is physically attractive. Therefore, she does have some really good things going for her.
> 
> The part about being turned off when she wore work socks along with something sexy seems like overkill. I completely understand that she doesn't have the feminine seductiveness that you long for and doesn't have much passion when kissing. Those qualities are also wonderful, but I would not trade them for the qualities that she does have. My concern for you would be that you might regret very much losing this lady. Of course if there are more negative issues about her or her feelings of love and romance, it would affect my advice.


I completely understand why you say the socks thing is overkill. For me, it's a *constant* pattern of things like that, though, that has chipped away at the desire. I gave a few examples, but there's a lot more. I guess the part about the lingerie and such is that there's such minimal effort there. After all this time, why is the burden on me to buy everything? I've had female friends tell me they buy new stuff all the time and never wear the same thing twice to keep things exciting. I feel like I've done a LOT to expand her sexual horizons in the time we've been together. (And, my #1 rule in bed is to make sure my partner is satisfied before me.)


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Is there another woman or coworker that you currently want? Like right now?


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## DonaldDuck666 (Feb 20, 2017)

blueinbr said:


> Is there another woman or coworker that you currently want? Like right now?


No.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

DonaldDuck666 said:


> Those are good words to heed. I was just out driving for a bit, running errands and was trying to figure out why your first response sort of stuck in my craw. Throughout all of the adventures, I don't think "respect" ever became part of the discussion or part of my conscious thinking. So, that's something I need to think a lot more about. I'd venture to say I have NOT respected her that much, despite that she's a great person and has been very supportive. *Part of me wonders if I'm simply just an a-hole.*
> 
> I can't say if I am strong enough to be that open and honest with her about everything (yet). I mentioned earlier about the initial bonding. I've ALWAYS felt there was a wall or a disconnect between us. It's hard to put my finger on it or describe it well, but I've never felt as "one" with her. I've been in previous relationships where there was, at least, a period of time where that woman was my everything and other women didn't even really exist to me. I've never felt for her at that level. I've always had reservations. And I feel guilt over that, as again, she's not a bad person. She's not someone who'd be unfaithful, steal my money or whatever. I truly believe she deserves a lot. I just don't feel like I can ever give her that.
> 
> ...


My intent was not to offend... sometimes we find those who simply spin things to produce reactions and if you came back I could find some clarity where you struggle in your relationship.

I bolded the above because these things we align ourselves with are choice.

This begins with self-respect, self-worth, and self-love... if you cannot have them for yourself there is no way you can show them for others because connections start with such understanding.

You describe yourself as "not a very nice person" at times in your actions and reactions... what we are is not what we have to remain. Previous relationships are just that, previous, and they didn't work out making them the past lessons that identify which baggage is worthy of carrying forward (the good stuff) and which baggage is not (obviously the "not good").

Sometimes we need to understand there is a weight limit for what we can carry... for ourselves.

People share about the many things that draw one together. Some have that incredible connection that attaches itself up front and drives giddy love for the first few years and then... *poof*, the honeymoon is over and you begin to see another as you truly are, flawed, imperfect, annoying... human.

Your expectations have not rewarded you and never will over loving acceptance that your kind wife deserves.

Forgiveness, compassion, empathy, kindness, giving, caring are also human, and a wonderful balance.

Without the balance, we are the bolded.

Resentment is a silent thief whose left hand is taking the obvious lit penny while the right is robbing you of thousands in the dark.

She has done you no wrong and your wife deserves your loving thoughts... these chisel away negativity you feel at the moment. You may think this is awkward and meaningless if you do not feel it, but you have so much to be thankful for in her and you will begin seeing the difference between what you thought you saw, and clearly what you really see. There is a difference, make the effort to see it.

Stop setting yourself up for resentment... your motives defeat you every time and again, be thankful for the life you have, so many have less and never carry the resentment you hold.

Find your happiness within you... your family will LOVE you for that and years from now is what you will see has carried you the farthest.

Just a thought... when the warm feelings come, invite her to take a shower or bath with you and just have fun... soap another up, laugh, relax, cuddle, just hold another and think of this warm and caring person in your arms... that is one of the seeds you seek, see how it grows.

Peace be with you...


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## DonaldDuck666 (Feb 20, 2017)

No, I certainly wasn't offended at all. I am grateful for your words. It was one of those "ah ha" moments for me, but couldn't figure it out for a while, that's all.


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## megrbaby87 (Mar 30, 2017)

He made a lot up he trys to be someone he isn't so people like him. He prob dosent really have a son but maybe 3 daughters one his one here and then theirs he is prob a narcissist that likes kids

Sent from my SM-J700T1 using Tapatalk


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