# Husband said he doesn't love me anymore



## Xusan

Hello,

Last Friday night, my husband told me that I had broken him -- that he didn't love me anymore. He wanted to get rid of our house. He wanted me and our daughter to go live with my mother. He would live alone and give us half his paycheck. He has never said anything like this before. I was shocked and scared and so, so sorry, and willing to do whatever it took to save our marriage.

We are high school sweethearts, and have been together for 15 years, married for 9. We have just had a little girl, who is now almost 4 months old. My husband has always been my soul mate. We tell each other everything and share the same interests, values, etc. He has always adored me and tried to do everything in his power to make me happy.

I have not been the best wife. I snap at him for little things. He gets so hurt and cannot understand how I can be angry about little things if I love him. So, he questions my love for him.

I love him with all my heart!! I know I have to work on not snapping and have committed myself to doing whatever it takes to make him happy. The problem is, I have been working on this for quite some time. I've read books like Dr. Laura's, Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands. Things work out for awhile, but then I will get lazy and snap again.

This last time, it was about the trash. The baby's diapers were piling up, and trash is his chore. He came home from a long day at work and wanted to relax. We gave our baby a bath, and he wanted to take one himself, right after. That's when I irrationally lost it. It was my time to get a break! I started to brood. He asked me what was wrong. I said it was the trash, and I wanted a shower. He took the baby and immediately went cold. After my shower, he took out the trash. He was cold all evening and the morning after. He went to work. When he came home I asked if he wanted to talk. That's when he told me I had broken him.

I told him I knew I wasn't acting like a loving wife. I should not have snapped at him. To make things worse, he had just lost a significant portion of our savings in the stock market. I wasn't upset when he told me this, but he was devastated. He felt that it was his role to provide for the family, and this was a huge failure on his part. All this happened the same day I snapped at him about the trash. He couldn't believe I did that on this, his worst of days.

I can't believe I did that either. I wish so much that I could take it back.

I have taken a few steps to show him that I truly do love him, such as confronting my mother about some long standing issues. This and other things have compelled him to stay. He is also deeply in love with daughter. It tears him apart to think of any time away from her.

He is still scared to open up to me, of course. I don't blame him at all. He just wants to be loved. What can I further do to repair my marriage? Please help!


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## dcrim

Communications is the key! You MUST sit him down and talk. 

After your daughter is in bed asleep. Just talk. 

Get him a glass of wine, maybe two to loosen up (but NOT drunk!!), but TALK. 

Apologize for your action, maybe he'll apologize for his. But yours will be off your chest. 

You can't change the past, but you can build a bridge to the future.


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## Melancholy

Xusan,

I know what you are going through, I am in the EXACT same situation with my wife. I love her dearly and I didn't treat her as I should have. I didn't do the things that people who love each other do for one another. So, just as your husband said, my wife said she is no longer in love with me.

Man, we have so much in common, my wife and I are high school sweethearts, and have been married 7.5 years. I lost my job earlier this year, and after months of unemployment, stress, and loss of our house, my wife found no happiness in life or in her relationship with me.

It's been 4 weeks since she packed my bags and left them at the front door. I am accepting the fact that she does in fact need space to work things out on her own.

In your situation, maybe you should consider a trip to your mother's house. Don't call it a separation, just think of it as a vacation for you and your husband. He can use the time and see what life is really like without you and your daughter in his life every day, and you can work on your own issues.

You sound like a wonderful person, and sincere. I also have a hard time controlling my snapping at my wife (for stupid simple questions and requests) and it is something I am going to work on.

I wish you good luck, this is a very hard time and I know exactly what you are going through. Keep yourself busy (not hard with a 4 month old) and use the time to work on yourself, exercise, and pray lots.


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## Blanca

Xusan said:


> We gave our baby a bath, and he wanted to take one himself, right after. That's when I irrationally lost it. It was my time to get a break! I started to brood. He asked me what was wrong. I said it was the trash, and I wanted a shower. He took the baby and immediately went cold.


So when you say you irrationally lost it, are you saying that you just got upset and told him the trash was piled up and you wanted a shower? and after that he just totally shut down? 

that doesnt sound like irrationally losing it to me. it sounds like you were also really stressed out. so you got angry. well, so did he. it sounds like you both just got angry and neither of you handle it very well. 

i know you want to be the perfect wife and never snap at him, but i think he's kind of controlling you emotionally by becoming cold and shutting off. i dont think he's totally innocent here. and i think the reason you snap all the time is because you dont feel like you can really talk to him about anything negative b/c he'll shut you out. It sounds to me like its not just your problem. 

i think he needs to be more open to the fact that you're going to have bad days and him just shutting off isnt going to help anything. maybe you feel he could help you a little more?


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## wantingmore

ljtseng said:


> So when you say you irrationally lost it, are you saying that you just got upset and told him the trash was piled up and you wanted a shower? and after that he just totally shut down?
> 
> that doesnt sound like irrationally losing it to me. it sounds like you were also really stressed out. so you got angry. well, so did he. it sounds like you both just got angry and neither of you handle it very well.
> 
> i know you want to be the perfect wife and never snap at him, but i think he's kind of controlling you emotionally by becoming cold and shutting off. i dont think he's totally innocent here. and i think the reason you snap all the time is because you dont feel like you can really talk to him about anything negative b/c he'll shut you out. It sounds to me like its not just your problem.
> 
> i think he needs to be more open to the fact that you're going to have bad days and him just shutting off isnt going to help anything. maybe you feel he could help you a little more?



:iagree:
Also you have a new baby. My husband and I went thru a lot of the same issues as you for about the first year after our first child.
One of the things that helped was giving each other free time. 
When he got home from work he got a few minutes to relax. Then he took over the baby while I got my shower and things I wanted to do.
After dinner it was back to his free time. Then time together the 3 of us. Put baby to bed, time togither for the 2 of us. 
We also had the chores divided, but if I knew he was having a rough day or week, I had no problem taking out the trash. 
And when I was getting overwhelmed he would clean up the kitchen for me or whatever.
We still snapped at each other a lot, but we knew we still loved each other and were still getting used to having our lives turned upside down with a new baby.


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## Xusan

Thank you all for taking the time to read my post and offer your advice. I've been feeling so alone and isolated. Being without my husband's affections feels like being suffocated. I'm constantly nauseated and have lost my appetite. I force myself to eat for our baby.


dcrim,

We have talked. We talked for about 3 hours after he told me he didn't love me. He said he didn't even want to come home that night. I apologized. That didn't matter. I had apologized before. He said he believed that I would change, but I just never did. He said that I must not be the person he thought I was. When I asked who he thought I was, he said, "Someone who loves me." I told him I loved him, but this did nothing.

He said he didn't want to hold me anymore, didn't want to kiss me or comfort me. He didn't want to eat the food I made. He had never felt like this. He would have swam through shark infested waters to bring me lemonade if I wanted it. (I believe him! He lived and breathed his love for me like this!) All he asked was that I love him back. He couldn't stand the abuse.

We had a turning point when I said I wished I had just called my mother and canceled our Thanksgiving plans because I knew that being around her made him uncomfortable. His tone changed then. He agreed, and seemed surprised and a little hopeful. He did eat the dinner I prepared and even told me it was really good.

Funny that you mention drinks. Neither of us drink. He doesn't because his dad is an alcoholic. He also wants to always have complete control of his faculties. That night, he said he may as well start drinking. There was just no point. This is another thing that he said that has never ever been said.


Melancholy,

I'm sorry you're going through this! I'm having such a tough time and it's only been five days. I see your wife has been gone for 4 weeks. I can't imagine the pain you must be feeling.

I won't go to my mother's. I promised him that if I could have the chance to make him happy every day from now on that it would be an honor. I meant that. We both believe that love is doing whatever it takes to make the other person happy, something I had not been doing. I can't leave because that would mean taking our daughter away, who brings the purest happiness to his heart. I admit that I can't fathom being away from him either, even with things the way they are.


ljtseng,

Everything you said was right. We both got angry. I snap, he shuts down. I just figured I was irrational because I got soo angry for some trivial things.

I do need his help around the house. I feel all kinds of guilt about this because I became a stay-at-home-mom and considered the house my responsibility. I thought I could take care of everything on the domestic front. I thought I ought to...I can't. The thing is, he never expected me to. He said if the dishes were piled to the ceiling, he wouldn't care. I'm the one who gets upset that I can't do it all. Then, I snap at him for not helping out. He said he comes to me for comfort when things get tough. When things get tough for me, I lash out at him. I have been able to ask for help, nicely, saying things like, "I know you're tired, but the trash is piling up. Would you mind doing a trash run?" I always thank him when he does any sort of chore. But, sometimes, more than usual, lately, I just loose it and snap.

You're also right about him having some responsibility for going cold and shutting off. When we were kids (I was 16, he was 17), it was so much worse. He wouldn't talk at all....for days. I confronted him about it a long time ago and told him it was so hurtful for him to do that. He said it hurt him, too and promised not to ever do it again. He stayed true to that and never became silent again.

But, whenever he is hurt, he is excellent at withholding his affection. He will answer me when I ask a question, but will not volunteer information, nor will he hug, kiss, or touch me in any way. His heart is silent. We have revisited this issue, and he continues to work on it. Even now, he is talking to me. He even eats my meals and thanks me for making them. He comments that they are good. Yet, he will not touch me and becomes rigid when I reach out to hug him or touch him in any way. There is no love in his voice when he talks to me. He is shutting away the part of himself that loves me...or, I've really broken him, and it's gone.

Just thinking that is excruciating.


wantingmore,

We do have a new baby. And, she is so amazing. We love her so, so much. We knew that she would turn our lives upside down and welcomed it. I just always thought we would be taking on this challenge together. I never dreamed we would be in danger of ending our relationship! I'm so crushed and surprised that he was so hurt that he was willing to let go of day-to-day living with our daughter.

We were giving each other free time very close to the way you laid out. He was OK with this, but did get a little stressed when I left the baby with him to take a shower. If she got fussy and inconsolable, he would want to hand her back to me while I was still getting dressed. This annoyed me, and I showed it by sighing and rolling my eyes, both hurtful and counterproductive things to do. I wish I had simply let him know I needed a little more time.


Today, he left for a short business trip. He'll be flying back tonight. He said a thorough goodbye to our daughter, smiling at her, hugging her and kissing her. I was glad to see him happy and engaged with our daughter. Then it was time to say goodbye to me. He said an emotionless, "See you later," and left. We are usually very demonstrative with our affection. His cold behavior cut me, specially since he seemed to soften up a bit the night before. I want to hug him, but fear that it will make things worse. I don't know whether he wants me to reach out to him, or just not touch him at all. Sometimes I get the feeling that it's both.


Any further thoughts about what I can do to save my marriage would be wonderful. I'll reflect on what you've all already said. Thank you again for your time. It's been very helpful just to get things out.


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## Xusan

mommy22,

Thank you! I think your advice is excellent. I'm going to make sure he comes home to his ideal home. I also plan to use your calming strategy when I feel like I might lose it. Thank you so much. I feel hopeful.


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## draconis

You have take the first step without knowing it. Every time things start to fall apart something about marriage like a book helps to get you in the loving mode. Stay on the forums. Everyday, I am thankful for what I have, even the worse and most stressful of days are better than a marriage that tanks. 

I grew up in a household where yelling was normal, and tempers short. I didn't like it so at 15 I started to change myself. Sometimes if things started to get elevated I'd go for a walk. Other times I'd ask to wait so I could calm down and rationally say what I really wanted to say.

Talk to your husband. "I know I can improve things. Things have been hard for me. I have always loved you. Isn't 15 years worth another chance with a clean slate."

The use of I is important. When saying YOU it accuses or blames others for fault and they feel defensive. Using I is a method to keep things from escalating.

draconis


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## Melancholy

Xusan,

I have two more thoughts.

First, to reemphasize what mommy22 said; men put so much of their pride and happiness in life into how well they provide for the family. Even though you may not see it, or he may not show it, an occasionally word of appreciation to your husband for taking care of you and your daughter can do a lot for him. Without this, a man can feel pointless and unloved.

Also, with a new baby and all, your husband is now dealing with a drastic change in your relationship. Of course he loves his daughter, but he is now learning how to share you. If you are breastfeeding and caring for the child all day, it is easy for him to seem like an outsider, especially when the only caretaking he can involve himself in right now is diapers and baths. You and your new baby are bonding right now and he won't get his chance until the kid is a little older. I had this same situation with my son, he never really liked me until he was 2.5yrs, and it was tough.


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## Xusan

draconis,

Thank you for sharing those details about your childhood. I think you're trying to get me to see that I can take charge of myself, as you did. I'm determined to do this.

Also, you reminded me that my husband's childhood was much the same as yours. He had an alcoholic father who constantly yelled at him for ridiculous things. I've never seen it, but I've sadly treated my husband the same way. No wonder he's so traumatized.

I tried talking to him this morning. I told him I have always loved him, that our daughter was born of love and that I still love him. The night he told me he didn't love me anymore, he said he was so angry that I went ahead and had our daughter with him even though I didn't love him. How could I have done such a thing? But, I DO LOVE HIM! He said he would not try looking for anyone else, that no one could make him happy, that I was the closest thing.

This morning, I also told him that I know I have hobbled that love by always expecting him to step up and fill my perceived inadequacies, to do what I thought I should be doing and could not. He miraculously was able to do this -- to do the things I thought I should be doing. When he didn't I would get angry. I think this comes from guilt on my part and unrealistic expectations of myself. I would break down and either be down on myself or lash out at him, and he would come in and rescue me.

He didn't comment on anything. He said he was still not up and went back to bed. I let him go, knowing that he had a tough day and needed to go to work soon. I could tell that nothing I was saying was making any positive impact.

When he did wake up, I asked if he needed a lunch, today. I had made him one. He said, "Yes," and accepted it. At least he is still willing to take food from me. He then looked at my thermos on the table and contemplated taking it. I told him to go ahead and take it, please. He said, "No, it's yours. You'll get mad." As I assured him that I wouldn't get mad, he shuffled out the door and left for work...hurt and angry. I will not give up.


Melancholy,

I do thank him for working so hard, and tell him he is the best husband and father ever. This was one of his complaints the night we had our fight. He wondered why I always had to be at the two extremes, paying him the highest compliments, or mad at him. I really feel like I have poisoned our marriage. I just hope it's not too late to save it.

I understand what you're saying about father bonding time. I know it's so hard for him to leave her every day. She really brings happiness out in him. All it takes is one smile from her, and he's catapulted into the best mood -- smiles, laughter and love just flowing from him. That's why I was so shocked that he was willing to sever our relationship, effectively taking himself largely out of her day to day life.

Things have settled into a sort of roommate situation. I don't know if he is just coasting, or if he is working out the details on how to split. I'm so confused. He talks to me about what happened during his day, about the state of our finances, about our Thanksgiving plans. I just asked him to do me a big favor and pick up some groceries on his way home. No problem. But, there IS NO LOVE coming from him, no affection.

I shouldn't say "none". Sometimes it seem like he "slips" and accidentally becomes his old self. The other night he bumped into my knee, rubbed it and comforted me. It was the most minor of bumps, but he treated it as if I had broken something. Then, it was back to no affection. A couple nights ago, he was baking cookies. He asked me if I wanted some raw cookie dough. I said yes. He came into the living room and offered me the dough from his finger and said, "Mmmm, yum." Then, the mask came back down. I miss him so, so much.


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## draconis

Keep positive and keep doing what you are doing without making him feel he needs to be defensive. He needs to see this over the long haul to know it isn't just to get him back. You have humbled yourself and gone towards change. Keep working on yourself and he will notice.

draconis


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## Xusan

I will definitely keep trying to make him happy. It's funny. That part isn't hard at all. It's the most gratifying thing in the world. The tough part is going without his affection, and him thinking I don't love him.


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## AZMOMOFTWO

I think you have described why he is so unhappy. Do you two ever enjoy a happy conversation together, just have fun? While we can all have bad days and snap at each other, and the other should help support the spouse having the bad day, I don't think your husband is getting that support in return. 

Why do you snap at him? Really sit down and consider this. Generally its not the trash, or the dishes, or whatever, its something else. Are you happy? If not, then why? I think to a point I was in your place. Raising a family, working, keeping house etc. is a lot of work and stress. There were times my husband could have used a kind word or a smile, a hug, or just plain having fun. I would sometimes snap at him too. Not a lot but I could tell it hurt him. On the other hand he was giving nothing back, he was pulling away. I did sit down and think about this and wondered why I was irritated so much and I felt something was just off didn't know if it was with me or him or us...that contributed to my moods and it snowballed. 

He had a part in it too, I was feeling something real. He was not doing his part in contributing to decision making and putting too much on my shoulders, not being a parther, it was unfair and too much for one person. Then when he felt overwhelmed he checked out, went out with friends and eventually had an affair (I'm not suggesting this is happening with you..this is my situation but showing you how it snowballed). 

Dcrim said communication, he is right. You need to communicate with your husband and fix this but you have to fix you too. What is wrong, why are you unhappy? Are you overworked, not getting something you need, worried? Whatever these issues are work through them and resolve them together. 

I don't think its too late to save it, I think one person can make a difference and that person has to be you. Commit 110% to fixing this, focus on being positive and do not let yourself get angry or snap. Listen, really listen to him and don't get defensive. Then work through the issues together. Also you need to start doing some fun things together, take off the stress, laugh together, remember why you fell in love and do it again!


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## AZMOMOFTWO

Melancholy said:


> Xusan,
> 
> I know what you are going through, I am in the EXACT same situation with my wife. I love her dearly and I didn't treat her as I should have. I didn't do the things that people who love each other do for one another. So, just as your husband said, my wife said she is no longer in love with me.
> 
> Man, we have so much in common, my wife and I are high school sweethearts, and have been married 7.5 years. I lost my job earlier this year, and after months of unemployment, stress, and loss of our house, my wife found no happiness in life or in her relationship with me.
> 
> It's been 4 weeks since she packed my bags and left them at the front door. I am accepting the fact that she does in fact need space to work things out on her own.
> 
> In your situation, maybe you should consider a trip to your mother's house. Don't call it a separation, just think of it as a vacation for you and your husband. He can use the time and see what life is really like without you and your daughter in his life every day, and you can work on your own issues.
> 
> You sound like a wonderful person, and sincere. I also have a hard time controlling my snapping at my wife (for stupid simple questions and requests) and it is something I am going to work on.
> 
> I wish you good luck, this is a very hard time and I know exactly what you are going through. Keep yourself busy (not hard with a 4 month old) and use the time to work on yourself, exercise, and pray lots.



Melancholy:

My profession is working with executives in transition. What you have written about here is not uncommon. In fact, sadly some of the people I have worked with ended their relationship after the husband lost his job. It wasn't the wife but the husband changed, felt depressed, etc. Its very tough. I have a philosophy that it goes back to when men hunted and the women gathered. You can't "hunt" right now and thus your sense of purpose is diminished. 

However, you will feel better if you take control of your situation. Do everything it takes to get another job, and don't be discouraged when you get turned down because that will happen, if not, you are not getting out there. The more action you take it will definately help. 

I feel for you, I've experienced these emotions from people first hand and I don't think women are immune to it. 

My husband has a business and when it slowed I took on more clients and worked very late. This made him angry at me. Angry because I was never around, true but it was more a feeling of I had to take up the slack in his opinion. I was angry about this, if I could work why wouldn't I? I felt we were a team, but he left me to pick up the kids and complained dinner wasn't ready. He was being a jerk but that's another story. He admits he was really upset by the lack of work and he did in fact take it out on me. We take it out on those we love the most. 

His situation was controlling him. I told him if he didn't like it then do something about finding more business. It took awhile and he worked hard but I noticed while he was contacting people and doing something his mood improved. 

If I can help, feel free to send me a private message. Meantime, I hope you can repair the relationship with your wife.


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## Melancholy

Thanks AZMom (AZ person myself). I actually got a job 2 days ago, after almost 10 months of unemployment. I am really excited because it is exactly the kind of job I wanted. I was beginning to think I would have to settle for anything, but this job came my way. I truly believe God had/has a plan for me and it apparently included me going through a long period of unemployment and struggles.

I am just praying right now that losing my wife is not in his plan for me.

I let my wife know I had gotten a job, the only response was a "congratulations" in a text message to me.


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## Xusan

AzMom,

Thanks for your advice. We do spend time doing things we both like. We have a lot of common interests, so this is not too hard. We both like to play World of Warcraft, so we used to do this a lot. Since the baby's birth, this has been tough to do, though. I could barely play at all, and he didn't play much without me.

We used to watch TV shows together. He has lost interest in many of the shows and only watches at meal times because he knows I enjoy them. We also used to go to movies every weekend. Since we're now on a budget, this has stopped completely.

Another thing that I really loved was going to the park, or just walking anywhere with him, really. He did this for me and enjoyed it while we were there, but never initiated a trip.

Hmm, as I write, I see that we really don't do much together, anymore. A while back, while we were at a park with the baby, I told him what a great time I was having and asked if we could do this once a month. He said why not once a week? I was thrilled!! We did that for a while. This past Thanksgiving weekend, though, there was no park trip. I hope we pick up this new tradition again.

So, I wanted to update everyone. I bought and read The Five Love Languages, by Gary Chapman. It made me cry so much. My husband is apparently a love expert. I'm having such a hard time identifying my primary love language because he was so good at filling my tank with all five! I'm guessing that my primary love language is Quality Time, though, followed closely by Physical Contact.

His primary love language, I'm guessing, is Words of Affirmation, followed closely by Physical Contact. I'm working on filling his tank in all five areas, but mostly in those two.

So far, things are improving very much. He is conversational with me, and even does things for me that he really doesn't have to, like baking me cookies, and helping me set up my headphones. The other day, while he was chatting online with my brother, he wrote that I was the "sweetest person you could ever know." That melted me and has been the number one thing to give me hope that we may be able to salvage things. He has tenderly touched me 5 times since our fight. We usually touch this many times in the space of half an hour, so this really is not much, but it isn't zero. Unfortunately, he is still rejecting my touch.

During Thanksgiving he touched me 3 times, which startled me. I reached out to hug him once, but he pulled away. I tried hard to keep it together and not cry. It was tough.

I haven't complained at all and have instead started writing my complaints in a journal as Chapman suggests. It's felt great trying to fill my husband's love tank. Even if things don't return to the way they were, even if he can't love me anymore, I don't regret this process. It is a gift to be able to make him even the tiniest bit happier. I'm hopeful, though. This book is a Godsend.

~~~

So, we are in day 12 of our "fight". I'm unsure about how to proceed with the physical part of our marriage. Touch and affection are super important to both of us. I have cut back on the amount I touch my husband because either he doesn't react, goes rigid and stares ahead, or pulls away. Obviously, he is still hurt and scared. The reason I'm confused is that the rest of our marriage has almost returned to normal. We have banter. He calls me by my pet names. We even talk about our core issues, my snapping at him and his deteriorating trust in me.

Early this morning, I cuddled with him and stroked his hair for about 15 minutes. He didn't pull away. He didn't really participate either, though. I may have imagined it, but it felt like he needed that contact as much as I did.

He got out of bed soon after without looking back or saying good morning. When I got up, he said a rushed and emotionless good morning to me. After that hiccup, we went on to have an almost normal morning. I made him a cup of cocoa. He thanked me for it. I flirted with him as he did his morning push ups. This was well received. I stood at the door to wish him a good day. He didn't look back or say anything.

I feel like he loves me, but he is trying hard not to show it. I think he may be scared that if he opens his heart to me fully, once again, that I will just crush it...again.

I wonder if I should stop touching him. Am I making things worse by showing affection in that way? Or, should I continue to make affectionate advances?

~~~

I'm feeling so down today. I've never been this lonely. I miss my husband's calls. I miss the look in his eyes that was just for me. I miss his love so much.

Has anyone successfully followed the guidelines set forth in The Five Love Languages and repaired their marriage? Has anyone heard the words, "I don't love you anymore," and been able to turn that relationship around? I need some hope.


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## dark_shedevil

I've read your post a few weeks ago and I've really grown to learn what has happen in your relationship. I care about you and noticed you haven't responded in a while. Please give me an update at my email [email protected]. I would really like to know.


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## jodhaa

hi. i'm looking for any advice anyone might have. my husband and i got married 3 months ago. from the first day of our honeymoon, he had pretty much been 'freaked out'. i have tried to let it go, thinking it will get better and he'll calm down. well yesterday morning over coffee we talked and i asked him directly if he loved me and there was long long silence. finally he said 'you've asked me a direct question so it's kind of hard to answer.' so basically the answer was no. he then said he felt nothing for me. 

i'm pretty numb at the moment. and i don't know what, if anything i can do. we try to talk, if it gets too emotional, he can't handle it. and for me, i'm trying to talk about a plan of action, all the while wondering how this could possibly happen and what's the point if he doesn't even love me.

suggestions, anyone, anything, please!


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## dcrim

Freaked out about what?


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## jodhaa

i could just tell that he was thinking 'what have i done, was this all a big mistake?' he was distant, wouldn't really communicate with me. after we got back home (from honeymoon) he admitted he was feeling 'oh my god! this is forever!' and i figured, i'm sure other people go thru those feelings so i acknowledged them, asked if there was anything i could do, and decided not to feel hurt, but let him work it out. 3 months later he still has these feelings.......


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## Veronica Jackson

Can husbands still feel jealousy even after they said they don't love you? I've been dating for a few weeks now and he became very quiet lately.


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## Rhea

Veronica Jackson said:


> Can husbands still feel jealousy even after they said they don't love you? I've been dating for a few weeks now and he became very quiet lately.


Are you guys living together? Or no and just still talking? Are there papers filed? Alot of times I think I don't love you screams many other things...one of the main ones is them saying they don't love themselves but really don't know what to do about it.


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## Veronica Jackson

hi Rhea, we are still living together. He cops an attitude and treats me like crap. No papers filed yet and I can't wait to get the hell outta here. He's a disrespectful homophobic jerkoff who is not all that good looking. i don't know what the hell i was thinking marrying this hick.


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## GAsoccerman

are you dating other women?


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## Veronica Jackson

hi Rhea, yeah we are still living together, I'll be in my brand new townhouse by July. I'll sign them divorce papers when I get money in my hand.

I hope he does feel jealousy for the pain he caused me.


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## Veronica Jackson

GAsoccerman said:


> are you dating other women?


No, I have alot of gay friends and some family members are gay. He makes fun of them because he's a *********.


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## Xusan

Hello,

It's been about nine months since my husband told me he didn't love me anymore. Life has changed so much since then. Things are better and worse. It's tough to describe. I guess you could say the emotions aren't as raw, yet they feel deeper and more real somehow. I find myself at a crossroads, more confused than ever about what to do, wondering how to just make it through the next day. 

I'll start where I left off, around December, 2008. First, I made a mistake about what my husband said. He didn't stop loving me. He stopped being "in love" with me. He was extremely upset that I had missed this distinction, saying that he coudn't just stop loving me, like it was some kind of switch. He just didn't feeling like taking care of me, touching me, eating food I prepared, etc.

I've written about how our life went on for awhile. I appologized for snapping at him. He did not accept. We continued to live as roommates. The only happiness that ever crossed his face came when he held our baby daughter.

I read like crazy: The Five Love Languages, and other stuff by Chapman, Mort's Marriage Fitness program. Nothing made any difference. My husband continued to treat my touch like fire and behaved very coldly towards me. I continued to shower him with love, and cooked and kept house, all the while thinking and projecting possitive thoughts. I was having such a hard time taking care of myself because he was so tired and unhappy that he didn't want to take our baby so that I could shower, etc. He said, as far as he was concerned, we were seperated and no longer married. 

Eventually, I had an epiphany. I told him I knew I needed to stop worrying all the time and just love--follow the love. This did the trick. The smile that had once only been for my daughter was now beaming in my direction. I hugged him. He hugged me back! Enthusiastically! We reconciled. It was a good Christmas.

(To be continued.)


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## Xusan

He had some bad days, where he became depressed and distant. I asked him what was wrong, if I had done anything. He said I hadn't done anyhing. He was just scared that I was going to--to snap, to stop loving him. I assured him that I wouldn't snap at him and that I loved him and would always love him.

Things were pretty good. 

Eventually, we got a chance to both stop working and spend time with our daughter. Even though he now had lots of free time, I did 80% of thevwork involved in raising our daughter. He was still reluctant to give me time to shower and cook. Whiley daughter was sleeping, I would cook, clean and have alone time with my husband. He showed affection, but I could feel somehong was wrong. He took looong naps and sometimes stayed up late into the wee hours, sometimes not sleeping at all, till the next day at noon. He spent time with me and my daughter, but I always felt like I was pulling teeth. Though, once involved in an activity, he participated whole heartedly.

I found myself asking for hugs and kisses, almost Ina daily basis, to see if things were okay. He would oblige, but things weren't okay. 

He began rolling his eyes at me, sometimes making a sniffing sound of derision, as if to say, "How stupid!" He had never done these things before, had always found me his intrllectual equal, and respected me as such. I called him on it. He never responded.


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## Xusan

One day, he was sick and I was driving. I got lost and asked him which way to go. I'm terrible with directions and had been following our car's navigation system. He exploded in anger, asking me what I THINK I should do, asking what I would do if he weren't around, instead of just telling me the way. I said I would call his sister. He was disgusted with me, and spit out, "Yeah, 'cause SHE knows this neighborhood." I asked him why he was so mad? It couldn't b just because I got lost.


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## Xusan

He said it wasn't that. It was because I had been losing my keys, or phone or wallet on a daily basis, that I wasn't showing any care, that I must NOT care enough. Also, I had lost my fire. The girl he married would not resort to calling his sister. She would figure out a way on her own, or would have cared enough to thoroughly research the route, knowing she was going to be driving her baby and sick husband. I appologized, and promised not to be careless. I haven't lost my keys, phone etc. I've made sure to know where I'm going.


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## Xusan

I know what's happening. I've been so preoccupied with doing whatever I can to save our marriage and rekindle our connection that I've been hypersensitive to my husband's needs that I've been letting things like my where I put my keys fall through the cracks. My fire, I stamped out because it was burning him! That's what caused the original straw that broke the camel's back! But, I assured him the fire that he missed was still there.


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## Xusan

Recently, he exploded in anger again. Our time of liesure is ending. Our funds have run out and we feel pressured by real life money needs again. He is also going through a period of urgency about using his amazing voice, and is trying to join a band. I wanted to encourage him and asked him how we would make it work. He slammed his fist on the table and yelled, "Why do I even try!?" Again, ivwas surprised, not understanding his anger. He said tha u wasn't supporting him, that asking questions about how he baby and I would fit into his new lifestyle was not support. It was nagging and insulting. He said I wasn't putting him first, before the baby, that this was just another example of how he was not first. Another was when I grudgingly got him water, when he asked, as our baby was fussing and about to breast feed. He had a fever at the time. I hose to care for the baby, explaining that though sick, he could still care for himself. I hose wrong. He felt trapped. He knew he had to go back to work for the family, an that was fine, because it was FOR something. For us. Now, it was for what? He had nothing at home.


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## Xusan

He told me that he still wasn't in love with me. This hit me so hard that I felt Luke throwing up. I knew something had been wrong. This was it.

I told him I knew I had failed. I wasn't putting him first though I knew I should. I told him that he would be first from that moment on. I told him I had been working so hard to show him love and to take care of him. He said love shouldn't be so much work. He didn't work at it. He just loved.


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## Xusan

I was quiet for a while. I cried. I told him that when things felt right, it was not when I was following a method, but just doing what love drove me to do. I vowed to follow this feeling. That did it. That was three days ago. I've been tru to my word. These have been the most wonderful three days. He has been so open wig his heart and has been craving and giving as much affection as me. It has been bliss...till today.


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## Xusan

We have a parrot. She is destructive and likes to bite things. We let her out of her cage at times, but have to jeep an eye out for her. Today, she bit 4 keys off my husband's laptop. They are somewhat repaired, except for one. My husband was in the shower, and I was in he bedroom with our daughter, at the time. He discovered the damage when he got out of the shower. He was extremely angry. Again, I didn't understand his anger. He never would have been so mad at something like his before. I've crashe our car and he was not even a little angry, only concerned about me. I shared this with him. He said, "You broke me, and expect things to go back to the way they were just after a couple good days?" He said my negligence was just another sign of my not putting him as a priority. He is angry, and not showing affection again. My touch is once again like fire.

My daughter is a year old now. How do I save rhis marriage. My husband will stay till our daughter is grown. I need more than that. I need him to LOVE me.


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## Xusan

I feel so scared. I feel so alone. I don't know what to do, and hope that I have the strength to do what's best. I wish I knew what was best.


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## RestlessInGeorgia

He's right, things aren't going to go back to the way they were overnight. One of the things that we forget when we are faced with a crisis in our marriage, is that the marriage didn't get this way overnight. It took time to slowly chip away at it. And, it's going to take time to glue those pieces back together. The funny thing is, when we break something that was once whole, and glue it back together, it's not completed until the last piece is set and it's had time to cement. The same happens in our marriages. There are those of us who are inpatient and want the marriage perfect again as fast as possible. It's a long process to put a marriage back together. The saying "Time Heals All Wounds", never applied more in the case of broken marriages. Look at it like this. Your husband is still there with you and your daughter. He as not left or started an extra marital affair with another women. He hasn't asked you to leave or asked for a separation. You two still speak to each other every day. You are not as bad off as you feel you are. 

You have said that he still loves you, but is not "In Love" with you. The fact that he loves you is a great foundation. This "In Love" feeling that people are hung up on, comes and goes in a relationship. Mature relationships realize this. Love is not just something you feel. Love is a decision you make for the other person. You are showing that you love him. And, in time, the "In Love" feeling will come back. It just takes time. As an example, when you two argue, do you feel "In Love" with him and just want to kiss all over him and make mad passionate love into the wee hours of the morning? No, because that feeling has been replaced, during an argument, with frustration and anger. Does that mean that the feeling won't come back when you resolve the argument? 

Also, you are putting too much effort into showing him that you love him. He sees all the effort you are putting in. He is just waiting to see if the changes you are making will be permanent. Just be careful not to do too much too quickly, because you'll burn yourself out. And, when it isn't reciprocated by him, you will start to resent him more and more for seemingly ignoring your efforts. When our spouses tell us something that shakes the very foundation of our marriages, we try to change ourselves overnight. They see these changes as superficial. If his problem is, that you snap at him over little things, then just work on that area. In time, it will become second nature to you to talk to him calmly about things that are bothering you. If he raises his voice, continue to talk calmly to him. I know it's not right, but he may be testing you to see if you've truly changed. He wants to feel safe with you, and not have to have his guard up waiting for the next insult to him as a person. 

Also, we bring problems into our marriages when we dwell on the negative things the other person has done. He seems to be doing this a lot. This is the world we live in. We never reward for the good things that people do, but let them do something bad and we basically crucify them. He needs to know this, because I'm sure you are not a horrible person. You are a person and you make mistakes. He needs to realize this. 

Also, don't ever, ever, ever, ever put him before your daughter. She comes first in all things. If it upsets him that you put your daughter first, then he should have never had children to begin with. Out of everything that you've written, this irritates me the most. Your daughter is helpless compared to him and deserves your attention before he does. She also deserves his attention before you do. She did not ask to be brought into this world. You two made the decision to bring her in. He needs to grow up and not be such a selfish jerk. You seem to be doing right by your daughter. If he is jealous of the attention that you show your daughter, then you and your daughter deserve a better husband/father. 

Don't think that you are the only person to blame for where your marriage is currently sitting. It took both of you to get married, and it took both of you to break it. And, if you are the only person putting effort into repairing it, then you will fail. He has to work at this marriage too. Marriage is a full time job. When we are first married, we think that the love we feel that day will sustain the marriage forever. How wrong we all are for thinking that. It comes to a point in all marriages where we have to put effort into making the marriage work. And, it takes work from both parties. The day one of you is not willing to work your marriage, is the day the marriage is truly over.

I wish both of you the best of luck.


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## Xusan

Restless,

Thank you for your thoughts. Right now, I just need someone to talk to, someone to give me hope. I love my husband so much and want our marriage to be as strong as it once was. 

What you said about a marriage not really being whole till he final piece us in place is sobering. I guess it's just really going to take time. The waiting is just so painful and lonely.

Snapping at little things was our original issue. Another big one is that I don't deffend him when he feels threatened by others. This one is so much harder for me, because I can never tell when he needs defending until after the fact. During, it always looks to me like he's doing just fine in an argument, and doesn't need me to jump in.

What you said about him seeing immediate changes as superficial seems right, too. He just doesn't believe. And now, his tollerance is much, much lower. When I make a mistake, it's seen as a severe slap in the face. I do feel burnt out.

As far as putting him first, I agree that I should, as long as he has my well being, and our daighter's well being as his priority. As long as he's treating me with respect and love. Right now, he's not. So, it's been very tough to put him first, and I'm feeling lots of resentment towards him. I do loving acts, but they're tainted with this resentment. 

Living day to day, knowing how to act around him, this is where I'm so lost and confused. Nothing feels right, and joy is ellusive.


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## Xusan

Had to clarify that I agree with my husband, that he should come first. I feel that if our daughter sees that I respect and love her father, that if she sees we have a strong marriage, it will be best for her. We both love her very much. He's a fantastic father.


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## RestlessInGeorgia

Can you give me an example of how you don't defend him when he feels threatened by others? I need to understand where he is coming from on this. 

You shouldn't have to walk on eggshells all the time around him. I agree that the snapping at him and he snapping at you needs to stop. It seems like you have already done that. You just don't need to work so hard on him and deny yourself. This is why you are feeling resentment towards him. You are putting so much effort into him that you are never doing anything for yourself. You shouldn't have to have a complete makeover to make him happy. 

You may want to ask him one day if he even notices the changes you have made for him. Then, ask him if he really thinks you would be willing to make those changes for him if you didn't love him. I know it's hard to find the right time to talk about these things with him, but he needs to be willing to respect your feelings as well. If he's not willing to respect your feelings, then you can do so much better than him. 

Take a step back and look at the person you were when you two got married. Hell, ask him to tell you what it was about you that he fell in love with. Once you know, ponder that information and try to determine what you can do to become that person again. It may be very hard and don't try to become that person again over night. Again, if you do too much too quick, he will think it's superficial. 

Here's an idea. Try picking up a copy of the 40 Day Love Dare from your local bookstore. If you aren't familiar with it, it's a biblical based relationship book. The point of the book is that it gives you a dare to do each day on your spouse, to show them you love them. It explains the purpose of the dare each day and gives biblical background of how God views love. Even if you aren't a Christian or do not have a strong religious background, I recommend picking it up. It provides a journal for what you did for the dare, and what your spouses response was. Now, if you don't get a positive response from the dares, don't get discouraged, keep doing them. They are more for your benefit than they are for his. It will show you how to truly love someone unconditionally. And, don't tell him that you are doing them for him. He may think that you only did those things because the book told you to. You may even want to give him your book at a later date with your journal entries and all, just to show him what you did and are willing to do to love him. 

I know all seems lost right now and it usually does when you're in the thick of it. But, if you can be married for a lifetime and only say you had 1 or 2 bad years, then I would call that a successful marriage. You will get through this and come out better on the other end. Marriage is like rough metal, you heat it up, beat all over it, and pull something beautiful out of it in the end that lasts forever.


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## Corpuswife

My H said the same thing in Oct. 2008. We have been separated now for 5 weeks. You H sounds like my H was.....everything was my fault. My happy go lucky H was now anger filled for the first time in his life. He also was very affectionate and thoughtful like your H...not anymore. Touching him was like touching a cardboard box. 

Anyway...I have a thread here under When Love Must be Tough. It's based on a book by the same name that Dr. Dobson wrote. It has helped me greatly as I had tried everything up to that point (begging, pleading, convincing, sex, marriage counseling, self help books, etc). It based upon giving your H the freedom to do what he wants (opening the cage door) as he is feeling trapped. Once released...often the thing "is this what I REALLY want?" There is more to it. 

Would he be willing to participate in counseling? My was...but he was 1/2 in and being 1/2 in doesn't work in counseling.


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## Xusan

Restless,

Thank you so much. Your words give me hope. I guess I just feel like I've been working to push forward for nine months, and now I'm all the way back to square one. 

As far as not deffending him, the most recent incident was with his sister. We recently moved in with her and her two young kids. One of the kids was sick. My husband repeatedly asked the sick child not to touch our baby. The child kept forgetting and reached out to our daughter over and over. My husband told his sister that the child was not listening. She said that's just the way children are. My husband asked then why discipline them at all. His sister sarcastically said, "Right. We shouldn't discipline them at all then!". All this took place in front of the kids. I was in earshot, in the kitchen. Afterwards he was so upset that I hadn't said anything.

I noticed he was extremely upset afterwards, and thought he was just mad at his sister. He was, but was even angrier at me. I appologized and spoke to his sister the next morning about keeping a united front, as far as discipline is concerned. I spoke to her about how she had undermined the authority of he adults in the house, an expressed that we were worried that when we asked the kids to do something, mayb something saftey related, they would not have any reason to listen. He was fine after that. All was well. In fact, we had a great talk that day. Things were better than they had been since the beginning of our rift. 

I want to address your other points, but Baby needs attention.


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## RestlessInGeorgia

Xusan,

I really have a hard time seeing how he felt that you didn't defend him with his sister. He told his sister what was going on, and she dealt with it by brushing his concern to the side. That would've angered me too. I know it's hard to say something negative to someone when you are a guest in their home. Trust me, I've been there with my mother-in-law. If you would have said something as well, at that time, you would have just fanned the flames of aggravation. I think he was probably just taking his frustrations out on you, which isn't right. 

The only way I could see him saying that you never defend him is in the following example. Say the same thing happened in your example and you walked in and told him that he was overreacting a little and sided with his sister. Then, I could see his argument of you not defending him. Instead, you were only within earshot and weren't even the adult that said something to the sick child. He is an adult, right? That was his sister, and not yours right? I would think that if you had a problem, he would be responsible for talking to his sister about it. That's just my opinion and I don't know how close you are to his sister. You guys may be close enough that it's easy for you to say things like that to her.

I really think that he dealt with it the best way. I don't think you should have ever been made to feel guilty for what happened. Shame on him for doing that. I look forward to your responses from my previous reply.


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## Xusan

I tried to talk to my husband today. He didn't want to, but I pressed forward, anyhow. I asked him if he'd noticed any positive changes. He was silent. I asked if he'd noticed I hadn't snapped at him. He didn't know what I was talking about. After reminding him (!) he said he definitely didn't want to talk about things that don't matter.

I picked up The Love Dare book. Tomorrow I work on patience. I won't have a hard time not being angry. I will have a hard time not always hugging and kissing him and not being hurt when he doesn't reciprocate.


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## Xusan

The person I was before we were married was always happy, didn't care what anyone thought, strong and take charge, confident and interested in traditionally male hobbies like archery, martial arts and video games. God, I rocked his world.

The hobbies went away after the baby. The Alpha qualities I snuffed out when he told me I had broken him. I feel like the good Captain Kirk in the Star Trek episode where he was split in two--kind, but with no backbone, no steel. At the end of that episode, Kirk figured out he needed both halves, even the evil side, because that side had his "fire". I need to become whole again, without hurting my husband. How do I even start? I have a one-year-old. I guess I better figure it out quickly. I feel my husband becoming more and more distant each day.


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## Xusan

Corpus,

Thanks for your response. I'm sorry you're going through tough times, too. I wouldn't wish this kind of lonliness and pain on anyone. 

I know my husband won't leave. He feels bound by obligation and is completely devoted to our daughter. He has said that the positives she brings totally outweigh my negatives. He's still around because he knows we're a package deal.

The thing is, before the laptop incident, we were flying so high! He was in love with me again. We were cuddling up a storm, talking about having mote kids. I don't understand how it all fell apart so quickly.


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## Loving Husband

Xusan said:


> I tried to talk to my husband today. He didn't want to, but I pressed forward, anyhow. I asked him if he'd noticed any positive changes. He was silent. I asked if he'd noticed I hadn't snapped at him. He didn't know what I was talking about. After reminding him (!) he said he definitely didn't want to talk about things that don't matter.
> 
> I picked up The Love Dare book. Tomorrow I work on patience. I won't have a hard time not being angry. I will have a hard time not always hugging and kissing him and not being hurt when he doesn't reciprocate.



I too will be doing the book but understand the book is about "YOU" not the other person. Love should be unconditional. It's to teach you to love not to worry about a response. Do not look for a response.. Yet note any responses down IF there is ant. Go through the dares and as it slowly changes you he will notice. Don't put too much pressure on it. It's not just a task book its to help change the way we think..


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## RestlessInGeorgia

Xusan said:


> Corpus,
> 
> Thanks for your response. I'm sorry you're going through tough times, too. I wouldn't wish this kind of lonliness and pain on anyone.
> 
> I know my husband won't leave. He feels bound by obligation and is completely devoted to our daughter. He has said that the positives she brings totally outweigh my negatives. He's still around because he knows we're a package deal.
> 
> *The thing is, before the laptop incident, we were flying so high! He was in love with me again. We were cuddling up a storm, talking about having mote kids. I don't understand how it all fell apart so quickly*.


There are other things at play here that you aren't being told about. I can't see how the bird ruining a couple of keys on the laptop was in anyway your fault. He is not letting his guard down to let you in. He's always standing there, at the ready, waiting for the shoe to drop. I don't know how your argument went with him when the laptop incident happened. Maybe you yelled and he started to see you in the way that made him become cold to you. Communication is key here and both of you need to understand that and figure out the best way that you can convey your feelings and thoughts to each other, without belittling, yelling, or sniping. Everyone understands things differently. 

I think it's great that you have gotten a copy of The 40 Day Love Dare. As it was said earlier, this book is about showing YOU how to love unconditionally. Sure, he will notice changes as you work through the dares. If he doesn't then either one of two things has happened. He is choosing to ignore you, or you are not putting your heart into it. Don't take these dares half-hearted. Do them with your whole heart and don't be discouraged if you don't get the responses from him that you are looking for. I dealt with this when I did the dares on my wife. Also, be unique, put your own spin on how you complete the dares. Make your response to each dare your own. And, keep track of everything in your book. Most people ask what to do once they get to day 41 and things have not gotten better. I always respond with, "Start over again at Day 1". Even when things get better, continue doing the dares. Don't get to a point that you are satisfied and quit doing the things you learn from this experience. 

I think my favorite dare in the book was the 3rd day. It was about Love not being selfish. And, the dare was to buy something for your spouse that says, "I was thinking about you today." It was fun because it made me sit down and think of what I could buy my wife that would convey this to her. 

There may be dares that are impossible for you to do on the day you read them. Don't worry, do that dare on a day that you are able to and continue on with the dares. I wish you the best of luck in your marriage.


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## Xusan

The laptop thing wasn't really an argument. I didn't argue. He was angry and hurt and let me know it. I appologized and reassured him that I loved him and cared for him always. He didn't believe me and said I never would have left the bird out if that were true. I went on to order replacement keys online, to try to make ammends. Not sure if my efforts matter. Maybe that's not the point. 

I hear you all with both ears. I have a lot to think about. I will dive into this journey in earnest and work on being the best me. Thank you all for your support. I can't express what a difference it's made to share and to see things from your points of view.


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## euphoria

Hi Xusan, I was just reading your thread. Sorry you are in so much pain. I think you guys just need a plan. Stress of a new baby and finances can do so much damage. How about trying this. Sit down together and each of you write down the top 3 things that the other does to hurt you or cause you pain. It could be belittling, lying, spendingmoney, or any other thing that bothers you. Number them from 1 to 3 with 1 being most important. You need too identify the 3 major problems in order to work on them. Next do the same thing with your top 3 needs. It could be domestic help, companionship, physical attractiveness, sexual needs, financial, and so on.


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## Xusan

euphoria,

Thanks for your input. Unfortunately my DH is completely opposed to doing these types of exercises. He doesn't feel that he needs to change anything at all. Our marital problems are all because of me. He is opposed to counseling for the same reason, though would not mind if I went. Even so, when we have an argument, I do share my concerns. And, his behavior changes. He made dinner the other night. I could count the number of times he's done this in the past year on one hand. He did the dishes a couple times. He just did a load of laundry.  I guess my love language is Acts of Service, something he doesn't speak very well. 

Today was a good day. My Love Dare was patience. I was required to note all the times I felt like putting words to anger, but kept silent and calm. I also chose to practice forebearance, and just mentally let it go and not get even silently upset. I was surprised at what I noticed. I could feel myself begin to get upset because of the smallest things, like him not putting his bowl in the dishwasher. I was not surprised about being angry when he didn't respond when I called him to dinner three times. I asked if he was hearing me. He said, "Yes." Grr. Then, why didn't he say something, or just come to the table? I had to settle for silently angry for this one. I remained pleasant on the outside. It was definely a learning experience for me. I REALLY need to stop being upset about things that don't matter. 

Got one hug and one kiss, today. Super paltry when compared to our usual level of affection, but infinitely better than ultra cold.


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## Xusan

Grr! I'm angry and I'm hurt! My DH is lashing out at me by ignoring direct questions. He is enjoying hurting me. He is upbeat, yet still presses against te wall to avoid my touch when we pass. I think he kiss he gave me earlier was for appearances. It was in front of his sister. The hug was genuine, I think. It happened when we were alone. I hate this! Gah! Today is patience, patience.


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## Xusan

I'm so confused! He's calling me by my pet names, but is still acting like he did when we were separated! I guess this doesn't change my actions. I'm determined to throw nothing but love at him, no matter how bad he is treating me.


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## Xusan

I'm already faltering, and it's only the first day. I'm already having thoughts of leaving, of, "What's the point if he doesn't love me?" It would be impractical to leave. It would break his heart if I took our daughter away from him. Plus, we want her raised by us and don't believe in daycare, specially this young. Mort Fertel's program says to give it a good year. My year is coming up in 3 months. Love Dare takes 40 days. The problem is, things change in the blink of an eye. But, they can stay bad for loong time. My DH was not in love with me for six months. None of the program I worked or the books unread changed this. One conversation changed it. Then, "in love" only lasted a few days--the best days of my life. And yet, it all fell apart over what? A laptop? ????


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## Xusan

That should read " books I read."


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## Loving Husband

Why are you focused on every little turn your DH does?? This is a rollercoaster. Look at my post.. The book is about you transforming into a better person. He will see it over time. Just read the book and everything it is teaching you. I really sugest you watch the movie "Fireproof". Its based on the book. It's the only movie I cry to.. I saw the end last night and I was so choked up.. I think cause I could NEVER see my wife admit to being wrong and chase me..


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## RestlessInGeorgia

Xusan,

Please continue to use this forum to vent about your frustrations. Loving Husband wrote that you should watch the movie Fireproof. I agree with him. It will give you perspective on things that could and probably will happen while you are doing these dares. You are only on the first couple of days of the dares. You are doing great so far. Don't feel that if you fail at a dare, that you need to start over again. Continue on to the next dare. He is not going to change overnight and become the man you fell in love with. It just takes time and patience. 

If you continue the dares with your whole heart and he still remains cold to you, then you did everything you could. You don't want to leave your husband and then have regret over not having done everything you could. He seems very immature about relationship matters, especially when he tells you that the state of your marriage is all your fault or makes you feel that way. It's not all your fault and it never will be. He is just as responsible for the marriage as you are. 

There may be a point in time that you have to exercise a little tough love with him. In that, I mean, telling him that you are going to leave and following through with it. Leaving does not mean that you can't come back. But, it does put his life in perspective for him and would make him realize what he is missing without you and your daughter there. My wife did the same to me at one point. Trust me, it didn't take more than a week for me to figure out what was I was going to miss. My wife is truly my best friend. I can't see going a day without talking to her and seeing her. She irritates me some times, and rightly so, we are different people learning and growing in love everyday. 

Go ahead and finish the love dares with him and see if he doesn't change. If he doesn't then prepare yourself to exercise some tough love with him. If the tough love doesn't work, then I would think about ending the marriage because you don't deserve to be miserable for the rest of your life. And, if this is the road you have to take, do it as soon as possible for your daughters sake. The younger she is, if there is a divorce, the better. She is just over a year old now, right? She is young enough for this not to affect her very much. 

I'm not saying to just divorce your husband, by any means. I'm saying do everything you can, so that if it comes to that, you can leave knowing you did everything you could to make it work. And, you can tell your daughter the same, if she ever question why you and her daddy are no longer married. 

I still hold out hope for you. Just remember, when we love someone, sometimes the best thing to do is to let them go.


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## euphoria

I understand that he doesn't want to participate in counseling or marriage excercises. Thing is that you can do them alone. That is if you do want to save your marriage..not sure if you still do. Haven't had time to read through everything yet on the thread. But if you do, let me know and I will give the advice.


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## nightshade

Xusan said:


> The laptop thing wasn't really an argument. I didn't argue. He was angry and hurt and let me know it. I appologized and reassured him that I loved him and cared for him always. *He didn't believe me and said I never would have left the bird out if that were true.*


That's insane.

He literally presses against the wall to avoid you touching him as you pass? He's like, an adult, right? 

You're making efforts to make things better, which is great... but to me, it sounds like he's getting you to jump through a few too many hoops to "prove" your love. 

I've read most of this of thread, and it seems to me that he's really great at making a big issues out of things. 

Look, I'm not saying you're without blame, no one likes to be snapped at. But with a new baby, hey, it happens. Things get stressful, people freak out a little- that's life.

If I got this right, he's saying you broke him by snapping at him? I just don't get that. Unless it was a constant everyday thing, or you turn into Medusa when you get mad... or unless he didn't have very far to bend to start with before he breaks.

Situations like being mad at you for not defending him to his own sister, being mad when you got lost seem to turn into how you don't love him enough. 

I reckon it was the financial situation that was his real breaking point. His pride can remain intact if at the onset of his insecurities he blames you, and gets you to try even harder. He didn't have the power to stop from losing that money, but guess what, he's got power over you so that makes him feel better. 

I may be way off base, but this is how it appears to me. 

Good luck.


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## Xusan

It's tough not to paint a negative picture of my husband. He's acting in ways that are so unloving. This I the polar oposite of the wag he behaves when we are doing well. The prroblem is, he justifies his behavior because I caused him to be angry, to mock me, to become distant. So, it's ok. I know this is insane. The problem is, I can't control him. I don't want to. All I can do is try to work on myself and create the best possible environment for reconciliation that I can. I also know I don't want my daughter to see me treated this way. He is civil, at times, even sweet to me when she is awake and with us, or when we're around other people. But, as she grows, she will come to see and understand our dynamic.

I am willing to go to counseling, though right now, I don't see a practical way to do so. I'm definitely willing to do marriage exercises. Love Dare is tough, but I'm working it. 

I want to give this marriage my all before giving up. My failure will mean not just a broken life for me, but also for my husband and daughter.

Thank you all, again for all the advice and encouragement. It's keeping me afloat in this sea of despair.


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## Xusan

nightshade,

I think our financial situation, plus his highly stressful job definitely bent him so far that it didn't take much to break him. But, this is the situation I have to work with.

I'm in the middle of Day Two of Love Dare. Today is Kindness. I woke up and cleaned out the litter box, a chore of his. We went to a local park with our daughter, his sister and her son. He is crazy about taking pictures, to the point of being obsessed. Usually, I am irritated by his constant picture taking, though I am silently so. Today, I aksed for the camera several times and took lots of pictures for him.

I'm having a tough time, because it's hard to be kind when you're down, and when you feel you're beig wronged by the person you're trying to express kindness towards, but that's the whole point of the dare, to be kind without any expectations of reciprocation, to be kind just because, to be kind from a place of selflessness, from a place of love. So, why am I having such a hard time of it? I was sulking most of the day, not making eye contact with my DH. My attitude didn't turn around till he kissed me for one of the pictures his sister took of us. I felt like the kiss was fake, but was so thirsty for affection that it just made me so darned happy. Why does it take positive feedback for me to put out positive vibes? So far, I think I've failed this dare. Glad the day isn't over. I still have a chance to turn things around.


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## Xusan

"The wise husband and wife will look for the emotional need behind the argument.* Why is my spouse so upset over what seems trivial to me?* The answer to that question will help you understand your spouse.* Meeting emotional needs for each other is one way to create a positive climate for communication."

This is an excerpt from Gary Chapman's latest Love Language Minute. Obviously, I am not meeting one of my husband's basic emotional needs. If I can just figure out what that need us and how to meet it, I think I might just get somewhere.


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## nightshade

Xusan said:


> It's tough not to paint a negative picture of my husband. He's acting in ways that are so unloving. This I the polar oposite of the wag he behaves when we are doing well. The prroblem is, he justifies his behavior because I caused him to be angry, to mock me, to become distant. So, it's ok. I know this is insane. The problem is, I can't control him. I don't want to. All I can do is try to work on myself and create the best possible environment for reconciliation that I can. I also know I don't want my daughter to see me treated this way. He is civil, at times, even sweet to me when she is awake and with us, or when we're around other people. * But, as she grows, she will come to see and understand our dynamic.*
> 
> I am willing to go to counseling, though right now, I don't see a practical way to do so. I'm definitely willing to do marriage exercises. Love Dare is tough, but I'm working it.
> 
> I want to give this marriage my all before giving up. My failure will mean not just a broken life for me, but also for my husband and daughter.
> 
> Thank you all, again for all the advice and encouragement. It's keeping me afloat in this sea of despair.


That's definitely true. 

I think it's great you're doing all you can from your side of the marriage. I really hope for the sake of everyone that things finally click into place for him and he sees your efforts and the pain he is now causing you, and stops his unloving ways. 

The thing about a lot of self help type deals, like marriage workbooks, is that they basically work on the assumption that both people are relatively "normal" average people. That their actions have a clear and traceable cause. But people are complex, more than they know or want to admit. X + Y does not always equal Z with people. 

It very well could be that you're not meeting a basic emotional need of his. But what if that need is unhealthy or unreasonable? Say, if he has a basic emotional need for your grovel at his feet all the time to keep him feeling good about himself. That's not really a need you should be meeting. 

I guess my point is, that you can only get so far without his willingness to look at his side of things or within himself. There could be things about him that no matter what you do, will not change, and will not change how he acts toward you. 

Unfortunately, I don't have any advice how to help him want to also help with things. 

I do think, that if you can find a way to make it work, that counseling would be good. Might help you deal with things thats more personalized.


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## Xusan

Self help has to be general enough to work for most people, but yes, I see how that also means it's tough to address specific situations. We've always thought we were different, unbreakable, that we had something truly special. Maybe we are more average than we think. As you say, he may not move. He may not meet me where I need to be met. But, i hope, have faith, and love him with my whole heart.

Today's Love Dare was selflessness. I was to buy my DH something to show him I was thinking of him. We are super tight on money, and my DH wants to curb spending. So, I didn't want to fly on the face of that by getting somehong extravagant. I wentvsimple and got him some Ovaltine, a favorite treat of his. Something I don't care for but he enjoys. He was pleased and smiled a bit.


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## nightshade

Xusan said:


> Self help has to be general enough to work for most people, but yes, I see how that also means it's tough to address specific situations. We've always thought we were different, unbreakable, that we had something truly special. Maybe we are more average than we think. As you say, he may not move. He may not meet me where I need to be met. But, i hope, have faith, and love him with my whole heart.
> 
> Today's Love Dare was selflessness. I was to buy my DH something to show him I was thinking of him. We are super tight on money, and my DH wants to curb spending. So, I didn't want to fly on the face of that by getting somehong extravagant. I wentvsimple and got him some Ovaltine, a favorite treat of his. Something I don't care for but he enjoys. He was pleased and smiled a bit.


I think that was a good choice and nice gesture.


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## RestlessInGeorgia

Xusan said:


> Self help has to be general enough to work for most people, but yes, I see how that also means it's tough to address specific situations. We've always thought we were different, unbreakable, that we had something truly special. Maybe we are more average than we think. As you say, he may not move. He may not meet me where I need to be met. But, i hope, have faith, and love him with my whole heart.
> 
> Today's Love Dare was selflessness. I was to buy my DH something to show him I was thinking of him. We are super tight on money, and my DH wants to curb spending. So, I didn't want to fly on the face of that by getting somehong extravagant. I wentvsimple and got him some Ovaltine, a favorite treat of his. Something I don't care for but he enjoys. He was pleased and smiled a bit.


You didn't go simple, you got him something that he enjoys. The dares aren't meant to do anything extravagant anyways. You finished that dare and got a positive response out of him. I think that's wonderful. There are people that have done the dares and not gotten a positive response for quite awhile. Keep up the good work.:smthumbup:


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## Xusan

Thanks you two! Your support has been a great help to me.


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## Xusan

I'm watching Fireproof. Wow. I got much better reactions, much sooner, than the characters in the story. I'm about a third of the way through. Thanks for pointing me towards the film!


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## Xusan

Today's dare was to ask my husband if he was okay and to ask him if he needed anything. He said he was good, grabbed me and my daughter, kissed us, and said all he needed were hugs. Then he hugged us! ??????


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## Izzitme

Hi Xusan

Your commitment and effort in winning your husband back is wonderful! It's gonna be tough and you are in for some really hard times - good luck. 
I do, however, think that you need to get some reassurance from him that he is willing to work on this too. Effort and participation in the 'fix' must come from both parties. He has years invested in your relationship, he has a family, you guys have a history. He can't just make all this disappear just by saying that he no longer loves you. He can't just send you away and out of his life. He has responsibilities to you, his child and your relationship. He must see this and he must make hard work and effort, with you, to meet his responsibilities, respect your feelings and give his family the best he can.

While you change, modify your actions and give thought to his well being, you cannot do it in a spirit of 'fear' of losing him. You are not the junior partner in this relationship, you are a full equal partner. Your work and concern must me equally matched by him.

I think you ned to make this clear to him.


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## Loving Husband

Izzitme.. The love dare is about changing you to love unconditionally. It's not about making him do anything. You are supposed to make the changes and then your partner has 2 choices. First to accept the new you and want it also or to ot accept and walk away. Either way the person doing the love dare will be better off one way or another. You can not make people do anything. When I talk to my wife about us its trying to get her to see the issues she caused and HOPE she wants to fix them. Though I am also doing the love dare cause I want to be a better person..


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## Xusan

Hi Izzitme,

Thanks for popping in. I think you're right that I should not be motivated by fear. This is something I struggle with. I have so many emotions, that it's tough to say what exactly is driving me. But, as LH says Love Dare is about loving unconditionally, despite all those emotions.

It is hard, but also strangely easy at the same time. I'm finding that the most loving route is also the most natural. I know my husband so well that if I just breathe and become still, the right course just appears.


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## Xusan

The day went well, for the most part. DH's family spent the weekend with us. DH was very loving towards me. Tonight there was a small incident. I asked him to turn down the volume on the TV because half the family had just gone to bed, and I was about to sleep, as well. He got extremely annoyed and said the volume was only loud during the commercials. The movie itself was already too low to hear. Why should he turn it down? I had Love Dare on the brain, an was serene. I smiled, said, "Okay, good night," and went to bed. He gave me a quick hug. His father was in the room as all this happened.

Really, this was such a tiny incident. It was more his tone and manner that struck me. He was talking to me like I was a child, a child he was disgusted with.

I have a feeling he will turn cold again when his family leaves. I hope not, but this sense of forboding is tough to shake. 

Today's Love Dare was to ask my husband 3 things I needed to improve. He would have been very angry I asked him. I already have a laundry list of things he'd like me to change. I wrote down the top three:

1. Stop losing my keys, phone and wallet
2. Stop forgetting to lock the door
3. Stop correcting him in front of others
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I'm watching a movie with my husband and his parents and checking in with my sleeping daughter (and posting) from time to time. I'm sharing a chair with him. He seems to be avoiding my touch asvmuch as possible while attempting notbto alert his parents that anyhig is wrong. Or, I'm imagining demons that aren't there. I'm tired. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I knew something was wrong.  Turns out the small incident wasn't so small after all. When we went to bed, he told me he was upset with me. My feet became cold and my stomach started to turn. I asked what he was mad about. He said it was when I asked him to turn the volume down. 

I took a deep breath and thought for a few moments, trying to figure out why he would be mad about this. I took a shot and asked if it was because I should have trusted him to just turn down the volume. He said, "Yes." I wanted to know if it was just me asking, or if it was me asking in front of his parents that made him upset. He said it was both things. I appologized. He didn't seem to care. I put my arm around his chest. He told me he couldn't breath with my arm there. I moved my arm higher. He turned away from me. Ok, I get it.  He doesn't want to be touched right now. We've taken a step backwards. As I asked him to turn down the volume, I didn't think he would be mad at all. I wish I had known. I never would have asked.

  
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nightshade

Xusan said:


> I knew something was wrong.  Turns out the small incident wasn't so small after all. When we went to bed, he told me he was upset with me. My feet became cold and my stomach started to turn. I asked what he was mad about. He said it was when I asked him to turn the volume down.
> 
> I took a deep breath and thought for a few moments, trying to figure out why he would be mad about this. I took a shot and asked if it was because I should have trusted him to just turn down the volume. He said, "Yes." I wanted to know if it was just me asking, or if it was me asking in front of his parents that made him upset. He said it was both things. I appologized. He didn't seem to care. I put my arm around his chest. He told me he couldn't breath with my arm there. I moved my arm higher. He turned away from me. Ok, I get it.  He doesn't want to be touched right now. We've taken a step backwards. As I asked him to turn down the volume, I didn't think he would be mad at all. I wish I had known. I never would have asked.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow. He was upset that you didn't trust he would turn down the volume himself? He had an excuse for why he couldn't, so that seems doubtful to me. Did he actually ever do it after you left? 

And I'm sure he was upset you said something in front of his father - because his response probably made him look bad. 

How much farther do you have to go on the Love Dare?


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## Loving Husband

I think she is on day 5.... Long way. Her journey just began and the first part is very touchy. A lot of ups and downs... it might be 20+ days before he sees anything..


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## Corpuswife

He's just looking for a reason to justify his feelings.

Ignore it. Try not to read too much into it. Keep on with the Love Dare.


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## Loving Husband

I was told by my brother-in-law to total ignore her actions.. If she wants to file for divorce do it.. Just try not to respond to her actions. I think this is true in many ways.. Its like gasoline on a fire. The more you fight back the more it grows. I am having a hard time with it... Mines Day 6..


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## Xusan

Hello All,

I'm on Day 5. Ignore his actions. Ignore his actions. Unfortunately, I did pour gasoline on the fire this morning. I had to use the restroom when I woke up. When I left, the baby started to cry. He hissed at me, angrily asking why I didn't just take her to the restroom with me. Now she'd woken the parrot, and the whole house must be awake. I stupidly bickered back, saying the parrot had been awake for half an hour already. He said, "Wrong!"

What a non-issue! Why did I choose this, of all things, to fight about?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

You all make me think. You all keep me sane. Thank you do much. I don't know what I would do without all your help!

LH, you sound so grounded and calm. You're only on Day 6? Wow. Kudos!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Corpus,

I think you're right. He's mentally building a case, keeping an emotional file.  I will keep on with Love Dare.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corpuswife

Yep. An emotional file...good wording on that.

He can be angry with you and put all of these conditions and you have to take it! I say you have a battle on your hands.

Do what you can. You won't be perfect. Give youself some slack. 

I am with you Xusan...without this site my life would be even more difficult!


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## nightshade

Yeah, good term! You're human, you're going to slip up and want to fight back once in a while. From the sounds of it, I think you're doing well.


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## Loving Husband

Xusan said:


> You all make me think. You all keep me sane. Thank you do much. I don't know what I would do without all your help!
> 
> LH, you sound so grounded and calm. You're only on Day 6? Wow. Kudos!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL :rofl::rofl:

i am doing this a second time around... So I feel experienced with it.. My wife has this nasty habit of putting on a happy face when she is mad. She blindsides me.. Still for a 2nd time around I am not doing great. her family though once again has my back..


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## Xusan

LH, I admire your perseverance.  

It looks like I was on Day 6 (first time) today. Not much happened. I appologized for arguing with him about the baby and the bird. He was civil. I miss him. I miss my husband, the man who always put me first, the man who couldn't pass me without a kiss or a tender touch, the man who shared his bowl of ice cream with me. I miss him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RestlessInGeorgia

Xusan,

Sorry, I haven't been able to post for a few days. I've been down with a stomach virus. You are doing great with the Love Dare. I wouldn't worry too much about his reactions right now. Just continue on with what you're doing. Don't get depressed every time you slip up and accidently snap at something he's said or done to you. In the end, you are only human and will make mistakes from time to time. 

It seems to me right now he's overly sensitive to everything that you do to him. He's taking instances like the tv volume and blowing them way out of proportion. Whenever there are issues in our marriages, we tend to take even the littlest things and make them seem so much worse to ourselves. I don't know why we do it, I guess it could just be our own self pity. Ya know, "Oh why has this person that's supposed to love me and be there for me always, just done this to me. They must not love me very much at all." I can't tell you how many times I've thought this way, when my wife did something small that rubbed me the wrong way. The good thing is, when you realize that you do this, you are able to overcome it. 

You said you thought when you two were sitting in the chair that he was cuddling you, just to keep up appearances. This may be true, but you don't or didn't have confirmation on it from him. You are all too aware that you two are having issues and I think you may be hypersensitive to the little things as well. If he cuddles you, or hugs you, kiss you, etc..., think of him doing these things in a positive thought. One of the dares, that you may or may not have gotten to yet, is one that tells you to dwell on the good qualities of your spouse. I have been wondering. Why would he be trying to keep up appearances for his family? What is he afraid of? Is he afraid that he's in the wrong for what he does to you?

I think it's great that you had the opportunity to watch Fireproof. When my wife and I sat down and watched it together, we seen our marriage throughout the entire movie. I cried so hard at the end of the movie when she realized how much she loved him and he loved her, then ran to him at the fire station. I want so much for my wife to realize how much I really do love her and cherish her. I think you are doing wonderfully and he will come around sooner or later. 

I know you are probably just like me. If I could let my wife into my thoughts, I know she would have no doubts as to how I feel about her. I'm sure you think the same way about your husband. Here's something to try. Try writing a love letter to your husband. Tell him all the reasons that you love him and why he means so much to you. Then, leave it somewhere that you know he'll find it. I can't see how you wouldn't get a positive reaction from him on that. 

I will keep you, your daughter, and your husband in my prayers at night. Keep up the good work with the Love Dare, you are doing great.


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## Xusan

Hi Restless,

Yikes! The stomach flu is no fun. Hope you feel better soon. 

It's so hard not to beat myself up. I put all this effort into our marriage, and one slip up can just erase it all. I guess it's always a lot easier to destroy than it is to create. Couple that with the oversensitivity you mentioned, and oh boy...I'm definitely oversensitive too. I read into every word and action, looking for signs of progress. I have to stop measuring progress through his reactions. This is my toughest challenge, loving just to love, despite his responses.

I'm actually on the dare you're reffering to, today. It's a good time for me to work on this, seeing his positive traits, dwelling in the positive room. He is a wonderful man with a big heart. I'll have no trouble listing his many good traits.

As far as putting on appearances, I know he doesn't want anyone to know about our marital problems. He has always been a very private person. Early in our relationship, I used to talk to my parents about our issues. BIG mistake. All they could see in him was the negative after that. They just kept prodding me to leave him and never treated him like family. He doesn't even want me to confide in his sister. He doesn't want anyone to have any clue that things aren't going well. Does he think he'll look bad? Maybe. But, no matter how he thinks he'll look, he's made it clear that he doesn't think he's at all at fault. 

Yes! I wish he could just peek in my head. Then, there would be no question.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Treadingcarefully

Xusan said:


> Couple that with the oversensitivity you mentioned, and oh boy...I'm definitely oversensitive too. I read into every word and action, looking for signs of progress. I have to stop measuring progress through his reactions. This is my toughest challenge, loving just to love, despite his responses.


My wife is a bit like that, she seriously snaps and bites my head off for things. At first I would let her know she was over-reacting, but then any assertiveness was seen as escalation, and she would chuck me out of the house, and I'd be away from her and the kids, so I got very resentful of this dynamic. 
It's okay to nag occassionally, and to be a bit moody, but snapping or exploding on a regular basis makes a man feel very unappreciated if, indeed he is (or feels he is) actually putting in a lot of effort. 
I would get annoyed at things like, when we moved house and there was no washing line or side gate, and I would build a gate, and put in the poles for the line... and instead of 'thanks'... it was... "the gates crooked." (it's about 5-6 degrees off cos after digging through the concrete with hammer and chisel, I found a pipe at the bottom of the hole, so I had to work around it. ... the gate opens and closes fine... it's just slightly crooked.) 





Xusan said:


> I'll have no trouble listing his many good traits.


That's good. My wife was 'listing' my good traits to me once, and I couldn't believe how short the list was, and how trivial the traits were. No mention of how I've stuck by her through some very tough times, how I carried her down a mountain after she broke her knee (jumping over a 6 inch deep stream while 6 months pregnant). How I helped her stand up to her boss who was mistreating her at work, etc... 




Xusan said:


> Early in our relationship, I used to talk to my parents about our issues. BIG mistake. All they could see in him was the negative after that. They just kept prodding me to leave him and never treated him like family.



I get exactly that. My wife always vents to her family, and her parents look at me like some kind of failure. It's hard for me to get on with them because of the language barrier, and their own destructive behaviours. (I get on great with her brother though). I don't mind her talking to family of course, it's just I discovered that she hasn't mentioned a lot of the good things to them.
Likewise with her friends. She moans to them about a lot of things she'd like me to change, but rarely ever praises me, despite the fact that I work hard, am romantic, give loads of time and love to the kids, and I am the clown who makes people laugh on the dull rainy days.

I know I make mistakes sometimes, but I don't expect to endure a long rant about things like stacking nappies so that they're easier to grab. (It would take me 10 seconds to say it, and 5 seconds to fix it... a 5 min rant is nuts in my opinion.)
If there's an underlying problem, I prefer to hear it straight, so I can deal with it. I hate this tactic of using something else to trigger it. When I'm annoyed about something, I don't disguise it under another topic. I just say it, and usually it's a much shorter, more productive conversation.


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## Xusan

Hi TC,

Thanks for your input. Today felt almost normal. The only thing missing is that spark. His eyes no longer smile at me. I'll keep on with the dares. I'm just so sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Today he stroked my hair. 

it's become tougher to read him. We're all suffering from colds, so I can't tell if he's sad or just sick. I don't feel him. I don't feel whole anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I have a hard time sleeping when he doesn't come to bed with me. Sometimes he doesn't come in till 4 or 5AM. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

DH snuggled with me as I nursed our daughter. 

I made him breakfast. He washed the dishes (rare) and asked me to buy ingredients so he could make dinner. I'm trying to just enjoy these things and not read into them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Took the baby to story time. I asked him if he wanted to go this morning. He said no. I asked him again right before we went this afternoon. He became angry and yelled, asking why
he would change his mind. He's known to change his mind...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

Pressure is the worst thing now.. I did my own today. It reconfirms why they want to leave..


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## Xusan

Ugh. I see your point.

Getting behind on my dares. Need to find a way to burn my negatives list. I was at the store today. Should have bought some matches. Maybe I'm not ready to let go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

What do I do with all this anger and resentment? I don't let it out, but it's eating me up. I think I'm beginning to hate my DH...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

Xusan said:


> What do I do with all this anger and resentment? I don't let it out, but it's eating me up. I think I'm beginning to hate my DH...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Are you reading the book or just doing the dares??? See what it is supposed to do is teach you to think differently and apply it to your daily life. If you just doing the dares then your not learning WHY your doing them... Give it time.. In the movie it took him half way through before he was able to throw his heart into it. My wife already says that I am going through the motions but not seeing a change. Maybe because she doesn't want to believe in the change or maybe she is looking for something else in me.. Don't know but I will push through and keep myself trying..


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## swedish

Xusan said:


> "The wise husband and wife will look for the emotional need behind the argument.* Why is my spouse so upset over what seems trivial to me?* The answer to that question will help you understand your spouse.* Meeting emotional needs for each other is one way to create a positive climate for communication."
> 
> This is an excerpt from Gary Chapman's latest Love Language Minute. Obviously, I am not meeting one of my husband's basic emotional needs. If I can just figure out what that need us and how to meet it, I think I might just get somewhere.


I think you may have something here. In reading your posts, if snapping at him is what made him feel 'broken' maybe he needs the opposite...words of affirmation...acknowledging the positive things he says/does?

I do think what sets him off at the moment seem trivial (tv volume, laptop keys, etc) but he is now hyper-sensitive in his thinking....trying to either convince himself that he is right and you are not changing or something along those lines. If words of affirmation is something he needs, a simple request like turn down the volume may backfire.

Letting go of built up resentment (as you are having difficulty with at the moment) is likely the same thing he struggles with.


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## nancy.moore16

It is a very important thing that there has to be love between both of you 
and the financial matters also need to be strong enough before you have a baby 
and i think i can suggest you with some of the best basic principles that you need to follow to overcome this situation


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## Xusan

LH,

I read the words. I try to live the words. Right now, they're just not penetrating my heart. Sometimes I feel so gung ho. The next minute, I'm deflated. I will keep on. I think he feelings will follow the actions.

swedish,

Yes. Definitely, yes. He does need words of affirmation. I think that's his primary love language. He can't stand it when I don't back him up right away, or question a decision he's made (volume, etc). I just get upset, wondering why I shouldn't have my own opinion. I think I have to put that thought away for now, choose my battles. The problem is, how not to be a doormat. He wants fire. How do I do fire without burning him?

Nancy,

Our finances were solid before we had our baby, solid enough for me to stop working outside the home. We hit a financial crisis when our baby was around 3 months old.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

He just kissed us. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## swedish




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## Loving Husband

That's great don't push it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Devastatedmom

I am right there with you but a little deeper now, being seperated for over 8 weeks now. I do have one thing that I watched, have you heard of the Love Dare. There was a movie, you can get at blockbuster, it would be so good to watch together, then maybe look at getting the book and doing it. I have the book, but my husband refused to watch the movie with me.....I am looking at a website program and am also doing couseling with him. I hope that helps.


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## Devastatedmom

mommy22 said:


> I do know that men put a lot of emphasis on providing for their family. The fact that he lost a lot of your savings is probably killing him. He's beating himself up about it and he's coming home to stress. It's difficult for him to see that you're stressed too. It's just that when you snap at him he feels like you're adding insult to injury. You need a schedule to decide who takes a shower when. Since you're still talking a good bit, see if he'd be willing to sit down with you and divide out household chores and schedules. Perhaps if you have it in writing, you won't be fighting over who's turn it is to do what. While you're at it, ask him to plainly list things that could improve your marriage--things that you can change. While your daughter is certainly a priority and needs her needs met, make your marriage a big priority right now.
> While he's on this business trip, do everything you can to make your house a haven for him upon his return. Are there things that really make him feel loved? Do them. How about taking out the trash for him this time? Sometimes, we have to put our pride on the shelf to make things work.
> 
> Also, make it a POINT to work on your communication skills. DON"T SNAP!!! If you feel like you're going to, take a deep breath and say, "Honey, would it be okay with you if I take a shower to compose myself? I want to be in a good mood for you and to be able to enjoy our time together this evening." Another suggestion is put the baby in the playpen, put the monitor in the bathroom and take a quick shower together.
> 
> It's easy for couples to forego their time together for the sake of the baby. This is doing no one any favors-- including the baby.
> 
> Use the time he's away on business to think about what you can do to make a turn-around in your communication with each other.


Mommy22,
I like your advice. I have a hard time with that, as both my husband and I work and we have a busy 5 year old. My husband recently did the same thing, when I sat him down and stated that we needed to work on re-engaging as we were spiraling down. He then said "I do not know if I want to be married anymore" "I am going to move out". He has not filed for divorce, but I also have a step daughter from his 1st marriage who does not live with us, but has visited for over 11 years and knowing her. It is a huge mess, I am trying to hold it together and fight for us, but he is just shut down and cold now. I wish I had the time and effort to make our home a haven but the fact is I run out of time in the day.....I am trying, but I am a yo yo, crying, anger, and then some days doing okay and have hope.


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## Xusan

Hi DM,

I'm sorry you're in the middle of tough times, too. I'm actually working through he Love Dare book. LH is a wonderful study partner. He's keeping me focused. (Thank you LH!) At first, I wanted to watch it with my DH. Now, I'm glad he didn't want to see it. I think he would see what I'm doing as manipulation and not working on myself. Follow the book. I find it keeps me going when I think I can't make it through my next breath. 

Today was a good day. We sang together, went grocery shopping and made dinner together. Weber never done that before. He said he'd better learn how to cook as he is going to be a stay-at-home dad next year. He made a minor jab at me during cooking which I ignored. Overall, a wonderful day!

LH, I won't push it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

He is trying. How do I keep the momentum going? How do I not mess this up? I feel like I have to keep my radar up at all times, so we don't take any backwards steps. I don't know how to handle missteps. I used to yell. Now, I listen, confirm and apologize. He's through listening to apologies, waaaay through. Ugh. I just don't want to mess up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corpuswife

Just keep up what you are doing and SHOWING him.

It will take plenty of time.

Allow for yourself to make mistakes along the way. 

Consider individual counseling for yourself. Both for support and guidance along the way. You may learn some skills that can help you forge a different attitude in your marriage. Plus, counseling can be a great stress reliever when you are walking on eggshells.


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## Devastatedmom

That is good advice. I was going to do the Love Dare book, but was told by my counselor to put that away....I think now, since we are doing some few things together, I might want to pick that back up. I am in the same place, my H is sick of apologies, so I feel like I am walking on egg shells. Today we took our son to bfast and the circus, and it was fun. I just hope that when he is here and us doing stuff he just sees all the positives. I read one post that said, "well he has not thrown D papers at you, so that might be a positive to hold on to", so I am holding on to that. Thank you all for your input and 2 cents, as sitting at home and wondering can be very lonely.


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## Xusan

Thanks Corpus,

I'll follow your advice, give it time, cut myself some slack, and seek counseling options. Hope. Faith. Love.

Devastated,

Hang in there. Keep focusing on the positive. Love even if they don't deserve it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bernadine

Hey Guys,

This site is great. I need your help. I read past and the current posts from and for Xusan. I am so glad that things are better Xusan. I am somewhat in the situation that you were in.
My husband says he still loves and cares for me but he can't take me anymore. We've been married for 14yrs. I am 10yrs. older than he is. When we got married I was an executive with a Fortune 500 company earning a good living and well established. He was only 26 and just beginning his professional life. I already had a daughter (very young) from a previous marriage, this is his first. I no longer work due to market conditions. He now earns a six figure income but things are tight right now financially. He says when I am able to secure a job he's leaving. He knows that it's going to be a while before or if I can find another job earning even half of what I did. I feel so dependent this is a place I haven't been in years. But in the meantime, I'm getting the ice cold shoulder everyday. This has gone on for over a month now. He won't touch me, will barely look at me. Like Xusan's husband did, he slips every once in awhile-- like last Sunday morning he asked if I wanted him to cook me breakfast. I need help. I love my husband and I do depend on him. HELP!


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## Xusan

Hi Bernadine,

First, just breathe. Then, breathe again. Listen to upbeat music. Play with your daughter. Think positive thoughts. I know your stomach is probably turning. Your appetite is probably gone. Maybe this is the moment when things will turn around. 

What is it that he can't take anymore? Have you gotten your hands on any of the books mentioned in this thread (The Five Love Languages, The Love Dare, etc.)? If not, I highly suggest you pick them up. At the very least, they will keep you sane.

Best wishes. We are here for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

If you need immediate help, (I did.) both books have websites. Google them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Hello again. I have to write. It hurts to see him treat his sister better than me. It reminds me of the way he used to treat me. Our front door is difficult to open. The key gets stuck. You have to jiggle it around for a bit before the door will open. I will be outside with the baby, fighting with the lock. He will not even look up when I come in. His sister gets home and he jumps up as soon as he hears her key in the door, so he can open it for her.

If he's watching something, usually on YouTube, and I come out, he will continue to do so, with headphones, unless I ask him if I can listen, too. He makes sure there are movies ready for her to watch and immediately stops what he's watching to put on something for her. I'm not angry at her. I'm just sad because I remember what once was. He has that haunted look in his eyes again... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

Xusan,

Don't worry about what he does with others and dream of it. He might someday with you if he sees the new you. Love unconditionally. One thing is for sure.. The more you fight the more he fights. The more you don't fight the more he won't fight with you. Just keep loving him unconditionally..


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## Xusan

LH,

It's hard to steer my thoughts away from remembering what once was.

We had a very good day, today. I was able to put forward an encouraging and positive attitude towards something I usually dread. I already feel like my DH doesn't spend enough time with me and my daughter. So, when he intends to spend the day writing and recording his music, I'm not supportive. I usually become sad because I know I won't be seeing him all day. Today, when he told me he wanted to work on his music, I enhusiastically wished him good luck. He was pleased. It felt wonderful to do this.

He ended up not writing anything. Instead, we actually did some songs together. When his sister and kids came home, they even joined in. We had a great evening. Then, I left to change the baby, brushed her teeth, etc. I came back out to say good night. I hugged him. Then, he rolled his eyes at me as I went in for another hug. I had slipped back into our previous behavior, when multiple hugs were the norm. This time, it felt like he saw me as clingy. Also, he wouldn't take the baby while I brushed my teeth.  I didn't react badly. Along with The Love Dare, I'm reading Love as a Way of Life, by Gary Chapman. He stresses that authentic love means loving, even if you're scorned. It's a good companion book for Love Dare. So, I go to bed sad, mourning our once perfect love, but also thankful hat I have the chance to show my DH how much I love him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

He is being nice to me today. We even talked about our future. He initiated affection. . Before I could even give him his morning greeting, he came in and gave me a kiss. After lunch, as I put the baby down for her nap, he cuddled with us. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Ok. Something just happened, and I don't know what. Maybe someone can help me figure it out. We all just got back from a walk and went down for a family nap (me, DH and DD). Everyone was cuddling. My DH and DD slept while I surfed the Internet on my phone. Maybe an hour into our nap, my DH's phone rings. I don't get up to answer it because I know that DD will wake. DH answers the phone. A minute later, my DD wakes up screaming. I'm guessing she had a bad dream. DH comes back into the bedroom, clearly angry, asking, "What's her deal?" I day probably a bad dream. It wasn't the phone. I ask who called. He ignores me, gets up, says he mmight as well just get up now and leaves. He is cold again. I follow him and explain that I didn't answer his phone because I knew it would wake them both. He stares at me with hard eyes. He avoids my touch as we pass each other again. What happened?

Should I have answered the stupid phone?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Janedoe

I feel like your talking about me/to me....I am new to this and I have not told anyone that my marriage is in trouble. I have no one to talk to and I don't want to have another late night talking to my hubby about it and only ending up in tears and the next day I don't see it really made a difference. I want my marriage to work. We have 2 young children and it was never in my plan to have more then 1 marriage. I don't know what to do...I just really need someone to talk to.


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## Xusan

Janedoe,

Glad you found this place. When all his first started, and many moments since then, I felt like existing just the next few seconds would be too much to handle. I was also very thankful to find this site. It helps so much to just tell your story. When others respond, it feels healing and gives you hope. I hope you find your way back to happiness. I'm herebto listen if you need to talk.

The phone thing was a non-issue. I don't know why DH was cold for that brief moment. I'm just going to let it go and not dwell. He said an odd, "Good night," to me. He sort of left our bedroom and said it as he shut the door, without looking back at me. But, he said it, and he kissed me. I'm looking at it as a positive encounter.

Love Dare is going well. I'm two weeks in and have seen a definite improvement. I'm still unclear about what to do when I hit a bump. It seems my choices are sooo crucial.

Must mention before I forget. The parrot and one of the cats were wrestling on the dining table when I woke up this morning. I thought he parrot escaped on her own. Turns out DH had he parrot out last night and forgot to put her away. I just took this in and smiled at my DH, letting him know it was ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Husband didn't come to bed till 6AM. I have to let this go. Going to the DMV with the little one to take care of registration for our cars. Maybe we'll be done by the time he wakes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

DMV didn't work out. Line was waaay long (surprise ), too long to stand in with the baby. DH appreciated the gesture anyway.

Today's dare didn't go as planned. I usually make dinner. I told DH I wouldn't today so we could spend the time doing something he enjoyed. He didn't really hear me and said he hoped to jam tonight (with others). He then went on to say that I was going to see a lot less of him since he's trying to join a band. I knew this and am supportive, but I will miss him. I don't think he liked that I said I would miss him. I'm sure he was lonely when I went to grad school. He was nohing but supportive, hanging out in the library with me on weekends and having dinner ready even whenni came home at 9:30PM. I can do this for him, be happy for him and support him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

We had a great day today! I'm learning to live wihthe reality that DH may not be in love with me right now. I'm learning to be ok wih that and not so hurt about it. There have been times in our marriage that I haven't been in love with him. Everything he did annoyed me. All good deeds were wiped out by one annoyance. Poor DH. It's no wonder he is where he is right now. I'm learning to just let him be irritable, rude, insulting, impatient, and just love him anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

You are learning the "in love" feeling goes in and out and not to let it effect the big picture. I know it's tough. Even though I have 18 years with my wife I always fear she won't want me now. Like I don't excite her. I have to keep telling myself thats not the case its that she isn't in a good place now. Just go through your daily motion.. At least your gettting some affection..


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## Xusan

It's a hard reality to face. I always took it for granted that he would just always be head over heals in love with me forever. I think he would have been if I had just nurtured him the way I should have. But, yes, at least I am getting affection. I can't believe I am. I also feared he no longer desired to reach out to me that way. That desire is still there. It's just also mixed with pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I think we're back to "normal." He's been treating me well. He's affectionate again. This is the test, I have to keep working on myself even when things are good. I would also love to learn how to handle the next time things go south. I will continue on with Love Dare. I plan to start over at Day One after I finish the book. I'm not near where I want to be. Our issues are still there. I'm just so happy that our marriage is surer footing, now. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

That's great p hope pt continues. At least some people having success.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corpuswife

Xusan,

I think you may have caught things before they got to the point of no return. Who knows? Keep up the good work. It's wonderful to hear positive news on a relationship...


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## Xusan

Thanks you two. Talking it out here really made a huge difference!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I'm to make a special meal for my DH tonight. We're having shrimp ****tail, hicken tacos and mangoes.

So, now that we're ok again, all the issues that got us to this point are staring me in the face. One is that even though my DH doesn't work, suposedly because he wants to spend time raising our DD, he spends most of his time on himself. Today, he spent 6 hours recording songs. He's still going. So far, I've been supportive. But, it's hard. We're existing on savings and will soon be existing on credit. I was fine with this in concept, but it's not looking like family time anymore. Instead, DH is spending the majority of his time on his music, watching tv, and surfing the Net (FB games, etc.). I guess there is really no point in me saying anything. Next year, my leave will end and I will go back to work. He will be a full time dad. I just wish he would spend more time with us now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lauren

LH,
You are such a good coach. I read through this entire tread and you've been through it with Xusan every step of the way. I hope your situation changes for the better. I'm sure better days are in store for you.


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## Loving Husband

Lauren said:


> LH,
> You are such a good coach. I read through this entire tread and you've been through it with Xusan every step of the way. I hope your situation changes for the better. I'm sure better days are in store for you.


Thanks Lauren but I think I am better at helping others more then myself.. Seriously I don't seem to listen to my own advise.  Still I enjoy trying to help people and families stay together. This world throws away marriages too easily and the kids pay the most. It isn't their fault we can't act like adults. We need to teach them its better to work at something then just throw it away. Depends obviously on what that is.. Physical abuse needs to be taken care of immediately and obviously relationships where the kids see a lot of destructive behaviour is also not good. Time outs and being apart to cool down are needed. I only hope my wife sees the big picture and gets to work eventually. Though this might be a LONG time. She needs to punish me more..


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## Xusan

Yes! Thank you very much LH! Thanks to everyone who has posted. I hope we become stronger because of all of this. I'm so happy that I have this chance to love my DH. I'm happy that he's allowing me to be his wife again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

Finish the book.. Do all the dares and remember to keep thinking about him and your relationship first. Let things go and don't take every critisim to heart. Remember we all are human.. We all make mistakes. Forgiveness needs to be practiced all the time and patience..


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## Xusan

I keep rereading your post LH. Things are fine right now, but only because I'm letting things go. I'm having a hard time truly letting them go and fear that they are just simmering in my heart doing damage. For instance, I mentioned a couple family, state fair type events to my DH a couple weeks ago and asked which, if any he would like to go to. He enthusiastically said, "Both!" I was happily surprised. Since then he has scheduled one jam session with a band that conflicts with one event and is thinking of driving 5 hours to LA for another during the other event. I'm hurt and angry that his music is obviously more important to him than we are. I'm also annoyed that he doesn't even know if he's going to go forward with the LA trip. I plan to take my daughter even if he doesn't come with us. I'm just so disappointed in him as a father and husband. He's doing a poor job on both counts. Meanwhile, I keep up a happy front. I don't know how to approach him about any of this, or even if I should. Right now, he's at least being affectionate and watches the baby at times when I need a shower, etc. Reading this is so depressing. I just don't know how to deal with conflict in our marriage. 

As far as Love Dare, I'm working through it still. The dares that focus on spirituality are hard for me. I feel spiritual and believe in God, but I have never really nurtured a relationship with God. So, it's all new and hard for me to relate what I read to improving my marriage. Sometimes I love my DH so much that I just want to hold him and never let him go. Other times I look at him and wonder what happened to the man I thought he was, and ask if maybe I never really knew him at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I'm obviously not where I'm supposed to be, yet. It's the everyday, small moments that are hard. DH just got through telling me how he was telling his fellow band member that his family comes first. Maybe he's talking about his sister. We're all out together. Whenever I get hungry, my DH gets annoyed and usually just wants to go home so I can make myself something. His sister says she's hungry an he says we can go wherever she wants...She senses something is off and asks me where I want to eat. I'm all hurt at that point and just agree to go wherever. I hate being upset about this petty crap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

The day is spiraling downward. Things are happening faster than I can deal with them. I'm not reacting right. I'm making things worse. I hope it's not too late to turn things around. How to do damage control...I have no clue. I'm not snapping. I'm going silent...just as bad. He is pulling away. Baby crying. I stay out in the car with her. He can stay too. I wish he would. He goes with his sister instead. He doesn't look at me, avoids touching me and doesn't say goodbye. I'm angry. He's angry. I'm taking my daughter to the event tonight. I'm taking her to the event tomorrow. He won't be there, though he says he wants to be. You do what you want. People do what they want. I want him to come with us, but I don't want to want. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

He left for the band audition. I wished him luck and said a sincere, "Have fun!". He said, "Okaaay. We'll see." He accepted my hug. Things still feel off, but I know I'm hyper-sensitive right now. Every little thing is a big thing. It feels good to have an outlet here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I texted him, "Thinking of you. Hope everything goes well! (Hope I didn't just make you crash. )". He hasn't responded. Of course, he's drivng, so maybe he just doesn't want to get into an accident. I'm being an idiot. How do I stop being an idiot! Gah! I need to get outbof my own head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

He came home very excited and happy about the audition. He hit it off with the other band members, and enthusiastically reported all the details to me. I'm happy for him. He's pursuing his dream. I need to just suck it up and support him in this, and stop sweating the small stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Today, I'm determined to let all negative things go and deliberately notice and appreciate the positive things my husband does.

1. This morning, he snuggled into me when I gave him his morning hug.
2. He told me I look nice. (I'm wearing a summer dress. He likes those.)
3. He accepted my kisses as we left for the carnival.
4. He's taking us to the carnival.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

You are on such a roller coaster ride. I feel for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

5. He asked me if I wanted to go on any rides. I said, "Yes, the ferris wheel." I went wih my MIL while he held th baby and took pictures.
6. He asked me if I wanted any water.
7. He accepted my kiss right before we started our ride home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Thank you LH. It's good to know you're out there listening.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

8. He asked me what I wanted for dinner. 
9. He kissed my forehead before I went to nurse the baby.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

At least your getting kisses. I think for me the kisses and her advancements are the last to come around. She is accepting most of mine. Like touching her or giving her little kisses on her neck or cheek but the lips is still not easy. So enjoy the little things. You are further along then I am on the book and the middle seems to be the toughest part. You should go back and reread the chapters. I think some of them are not getting to you.. My day is 27 and it is how I held my wife in my eyes all the time. I feel so bad for treating her like that.. I vow to continue to improve..


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## Xusan

LH,

I will reread. I know I'm not taking in some very important parts. I'm selfish. This is my core problem. I'm looking for reciprocation. This is totally the oposite of what the book teaches. So, in a way, my DH's positive reactions are slowing down my progress. It's when he's awful that my love is truly tested.

I'm very much enjoying the small things. Kisses on the lips are the hardest for us as well...Even sex, and all other foreplay, is easier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Our 10th wedding anniversary is this weekend. We're going to visit the spot we were married and have our sister take a picture of us holding up a big "10." The whole extended family is going to share a room, which is a downer on our anniversary. At least it's still celebratory in spirit. Also, our sister may be able to watch our daughter for a short time to give me and my DH some alone time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

LH,

Sometimes I'm ahead of you in Love Dare. Sometimes I'm behind. There are dares, like today's (Day 26) that I think I shouldn't do. The dare is:

Take time to pray through your areas of wrongdoing. Ask for God’s forgiveness, then humble yourself enough to admit them to your spouse. Do it sincerely and truthfully. Ask your spouse for forgiveness as well. No matter how they respond, make sure you cover your responsibility in love. Even if they respond with criticism, accept it by receiving it as counsel."

I have done this many times over. My DH is all listened out. It sickens him to hear more apologies. He needs to see actions.
I've chosen to reflect today on my faults and to ask for the strength to work on those faults.

I have to mention here that I had a trying time the other day. We were driving home from the carnival and still had about 40 min to go till we reached home when our daughter started crying. I asked if DH would stop he car so I could nurse. He said he had no problem if she cried the rest of the way home. Ordinarily, I would have insisted that he stop. I felt his was a pivotal moment, so instead, I nodded and said, "OK." My daughter screamed for the rest of the ride. The entire time, I fought an inner battle with myself, half of me wanting to rip off my wedding ring and throw it out the window, wantng to yell at my husband for not willing to stop so we could see to our baby! The other half knowing that he would see this as me not supporting his choice and choosing our daughter before him...our main marital issues!!! This was the day I vowed to ignore the negative. I kept telling myself that my baby wouldn't die. She wouldn't die. I immediately attended to her when we got home. It turns out she soiled her diaper. I told my husband. He said he would have stopped if he knew that...I could have said so many damaging things then. It took a lot of willpower to hold my tongue. I changed her and nursed her. Afterwards, I felt like leaving my DH then and there. So, I did the oposite of what I felt, hugged him, and told him our daughter was now fine and sleeping soundly (no thanks to him...I didn't add this last part...). He felt bad for not stopping, I think. I believe he felt supported. He has definitely opened up to me quite a bit more since this happened. I think I made the right call, marriage wise, but I know I also resent him for not stopping. I feel like he dropped the ball as a dad, and know that I deliberately dropped it as a mom. I hate him for that, and I hate myself, too.
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## Corpuswife

Don't be too hard on yourself. You are doing everything to salvage your marriage. You D was uncomfortable but ok. 

You are the one working on your marriage at this point. I respect you for that....exhaust all options. 

It's hard to be the only one willing to do the work. I commend you.


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## Loving Husband

You did what you had to do.. Remember no negative things. It will put him in a defensive mode. Your doing great just remember not to get to confident at times. Remember the book is about you finding peace and not letting circumstances chage how you feel. The fact you got so angry and worried means your still struggling a bit with the dare. You have to understand everything your doing is cause you WANT to do it. Not expecting anything in return. I told my wife that last night when I say I love you and she doesn't say it back. i do it cause I feel it not for her to say it back.. Let it all go and just do cause you want too.


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## Xusan

Thank you both. I take your words to heart.
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## Loving Husband

How are the dares going?? These are the hardest by far. I noticed the ones int he 20's are very difficult. I am up to Day 30. I don't usually skip a dare.. That's probably why I am ahead of you. Dare day 32 is coming up fast. Even though I won't be able to do it because it will be durring that time of the month we did do it 2 times this past week.. So I guess I can skip that day. I reread the book often.. It helps refocus. I might even do it again..


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## Xusan

Yes!! The dares are getting MUCH harder. Some are just not possible. I have the hardest time when he dares require us to talk about our marriage because my husband simply is so sick of talk that any hint of it infuriates him. Regardless, I try to fulfill the dares as best I can, even if I'm jus confessing things to God. I too am rereading. It does help. I have failed to really absorb some of the earlier dares, so rereading is very useful as a reminder.

Today was our 10th anniversary. It went very well. We visited the spot where we were married. I renewed my vows. He told me he loved me wih some special, very personal and heartfelt words. I gave him a personalIzed present that I put together using some of my talents with graphics. He gave me an anniversary band with a story behind it. It was a very good day.
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## Loving Husband

That's great. We missed our 10th cause of this. Now we missed our 15th cause of this. Man my wife is losing out on memories. If we make it through I will make up the 15th. Your doing good though.. He seems to be on edge though. 1 wrong move and boom he blows. My wife is like that. it's not easy to be in a relationship thats like that..


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## Xusan

I have hopes for you LH. You have plenty of time to make new memories, though I understand how painful it is to see the milestones go by while you're still in trouble.

We are doing well, but yes...I do live knowing he could blow up at any momentband put us back at square one, or worse, just end us. That's why I desperately want to learn what to do when that moment inevitably comes up. Right now, I have no idea.
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## Xusan

That moment may be now. My husband is paying bills. He just noticed that a credit card bill is late. I filed the bill, thinking it was paid. It wasn't. He's angry. I apoogized, explaining that I only file bills that are paid. I misunderstood when he gave me the bill. He's mad. He's on the phone with the credit card company now. I don't know what to say or do ...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

The moment passed. I went to nurse the baby. He gave me a kiss on the neck. Afterwards, I said, "How can I help you." He asked me to mark some bills "Paid" and file them. Crisis averted. But, the tension this tiny, everyday situation caused is telling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

His anger is going to be an issue if it's not corrected. It will beat everybody down.. Very hard to live on eggshells. I hope you guys get on the same page but it feels like your 1 issue froma big blowup..


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## Xusan

Yes, I know you're right. We were playing a game the other day that required me to choose the player that was most in need of anger management classes. The goal was to match my husband's answer. I honestly but stupidly chose him. He picked his sister...He was quiet. Later he brought it up with me, sarcasticly saying, "Yeah, because I always flip my lid." He doesn't see that he is always angry. He doesn't think he is.
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## Corpuswife

You are doing so well on the Love Dare. 

When I read your posts, I sense your effort and commitment.

I know it's difficult when you feel like you are walking on eggshell.s

I guess the thing, over time, that I worry about is losing your self worth. 

It's so easy to become hyper-focused on doing-the-right-thing that you lose yourself in the process. You become over compliant, You stuff your feelings. You sacrifice your wants and needs.

I've been where you have and understand the dilemma (sp??). 

Keep moving foward. You're doing a great job. Just some food for thought here.


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## Loving Husband

As the love dare says. It's hard to invest in something where you get nothing in return. I am hoping that you try not to focus on what h's doing and more of what you need to do.. Since you can't control him he will respond to how you act. If you show strength and colmness he wil eventually see that. Remember you teach people how to treat you. If you allow yourself to be a doormat then they wil walk on you. Not saying start arguments just be under control..


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## Xusan

Thanks again Corpus and LH,

This time of life is so hard. It's such a great help to know someone is out there listening.

I think I've already lost myself. I used to have a great smile. It was sunny and natural and took over my whole face. I can't smile anymore, specially for pictures. It just never seems to reach my eyes. I'm trying to find that smile again. I have a feeling that when I do, I'll have found myself as well.

I think we may be in trouble again. Two issues: the first has to do with volume again. We were all eating dinner. Our 3-year-old nephew complained that the TV was too loud. It was. I knew his 
was a hot button issue, so I remained silent. In fact, no one said anything and the TV remained loud. As the meal reached it's end, I couldn't take it anymore. My ears were hurting. I could only imagine what the volume was doing to our daughter's virgin ears and those of the other two kids in the house. I motioned to my husband turning down the volumeand asked if it was ok, if he could still hear. I was careful to make sure no one saw me ask him. He did not look amused and shrugged. I took that to mean it was ok with him if I turned down the TV. So, I did.

Later, I let him know I was going to give our baby a bath. I always hand the baby off to him afterwards and take a shower. (My precious relaxation time!) Before, I would ask him if it was a good time. He later let me know his was annoying him, and was angry because it made it look like I didn't trust him to care for our child. So, he said I should just go ahead and let him know I was giving the baby a bath instead of asking him. That's what I did this evening. He looked upset, and asked, "Again?" then said, "I don't want to do this every other night." I let him know that even if he baby didn't absolutely need a bath, I wanted a shower. He asked why I didn't just take one. I said okay and let him know I would take one after putting he baby to bed. He seemed fine with that.

I left our daughter with him to use the restroom. When I came back out, he was outside with her and he other 2 kids. He said he needed to walk off the burgers we grilled for dinner. I was grilled because I love taking walks, and he almost never wants to take a walk. So, I enhusiastically told him I was comming too. He looked disappointed that I was comming. A couple minutes into the walk, it was evident that he didn't want me there. I excused myself and said his was probably a good time for me to take that shower. He agreed, not one time looking at me.

After my shower, he seemed normal, speaking to me and making eye contact. I took our daughter and leaned in for a kiss, which he returned. He may have done so, only because his sister was in the room. I will have to see how he when we're alone. He let's me know when he's upset, and may even tell me why. I'm strangely numb right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

You guys are playing the act but I don't see anything improving. It's like your both trying at times but then get sucked back into the misery.. You always seem like your one action from a blow up and going back to the way it was. I am not sure anything has been fixed yet. His anger won't be and this will cause a constant problem.. Sorry your on such a roller coaster.


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## Xusan

I don't know what else to do, except what I'm doing 
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## MEM2020

The money thing is such a huge, huge deal to men. The stock market thing you described is likely making him feel awful. But separate from that is this idea of context. He tells you about some event that effects him in a really bad way. Picture if you had told him that your best friend was relocating to a place so far away you might never see them again. And that night he comes home from work, and gets mad at you about something minor. 

I am not saying this to make you feel bad - just to explain that this was not just snapping - this was snapping in the middle of a bad emotional storm for him. 

Have you thought about asking him for a list of his top 5. The top 5 things you could do that would make his life better/more enjoyable. Just ask him. Can't hurt. 









Xusan said:


> I will definitely keep trying to make him happy. It's funny. That part isn't hard at all. It's the most gratifying thing in the world. The tough part is going without his affection, and him thinking I don't love him.


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## Loving Husband

He has a lot of issues effecting him and you cane fix that. So other then doing the love dares and continue to improve yourself that's all you can. Helping him with what he's going through by being supportive might be something to try but asking him what's wrong can't hurt
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## Corpuswife

One of the things that you risk in being too nice is the lack of challenge that he feels. He feels that he can do anything and you will bend over backwards to make it allright.

I have done this before and you end up being a doormat. 

The Love Dare is great. However, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't direct your desires/wants towards him. If you want a shower and he needs to watch the baby. Ask him to watch the baby, when you are ready. If he's busy then put the baby in the crib or wait. 

You can still do the Love Dare but start putting your needs in a higher priority. If you'd like to go and do something....invite him and if he doesn't want to go...do it anyway. Show him that you are attractive and fun and not needy and not waiting on him. 

It's a balance. I read your posts and this is the issue that comes through. Too much focus on him and not enough on you.


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## Xusan

Hi Mem,

I hear you about the money thing. Basically, I kicked him when he was down.  I don't do that anymore. In fact. I build him up, which is what I shod have been doing all along.

LH,

Thanks for your honesty. Sometimes what you say is hard to hear, and my first instinct is to become deffensive. But, you make me think and reflect and improve. 

Corpus,

I think I've swung from being a spoiled, self centered, princess to a martyred doormat. I have to find a happier, healthier medium. I like pretentious coffee, graphic art, hiking and archery. I think I can work some of those things back into my life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corpuswife

I'm glad to hear of your interests. Slowly bring them back and do it for you. You are doing so good...just add a little "you" back into the equation.


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## Loving Husband

Yes its a very rocky road. How long that road is depends on how long its been rocky in the past. You are doing great just need to make the complete turn for yourself. He's got his own battles and he will need to see it eventually. Please don't focus on everything he says. It's only going to make you crazy. 

BTW: i have a habit of being upfront with people. It's not the softest way of handling things here but I will really try to help without sugar coating things.


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## Xusan

I never know when it's going to be. It usually happens when I think things are finally going well. We are both natural and loving. Then BAM!! All of a sudden he's ice cold. He's not making eye contact with me. He's rigid when I touch him.

I was helping our daughter and 3 year old nephew put away books. DH was a foot away watching TV with his sister. I went to the kitchen to wash my hands. When I came back, he was cold. I asked what was wrong. He said he looked back at our daughter and she was holding her wrist. The 3 year old looked guilty. He was mad because I left them unsupervised.  I didn't think I was doing any such thing. I guess I should have told him I was going to wash my hands. Now, I know he's gone again. I felt ice shoot through me and my stomach hurts. My heart is ripping. Just today he told me how happy he was that I was supporting his efforts to further his singing. He said he couldn't do it wihout me. Now, I'm alone again. He's ripped himself from me. I knew this was going to happen. It doesn't dull the pain at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corpuswife

Wow! It doesn't take much for your H to do a 180 huh??

I'm not sure I could live this way for long. Although,what am I saying, my H was pretty cold for 8 months. Just not THAT topsy turvy like yours. 

I think he's the dad and can watch the D while you go to the restroom. He sounds like he's being catered to....Has he always been this way?


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## RestlessInGeorgia

Xusan,
I have caught up on all the the posts you have put on here. I have a few things to say and they will probably upset you. First, your husband is walking all over you with this on again/off again attitude that he has. I know you are working through the love dares and that you are doing wonderfully. The problem is, you are not really seeing any kind of permanent change in you husband. I don't know how old he is, but it seems to me he must not be much older than 14, because he's acting like an angsty spoiled rotten teenager. If he doesn't get his way exactly, he's gonna pout. I'm sorry, you are not married to a man, you are married to a child. And, since you guys are having financial issues and are living with his sister, why isn't he working? Is he too good to get a job at say McDonalds? He is pursuing his music career, which will probably never go past the basement or garage of one of his friends. He needs to be more mature and get whatever work he can. You are a stronger person than I am. I would have thrown that deadbeat little **** out a long time ago. He is making your life a living hell. You really need to get the Tough Love book by Dr. James Dobson and practice it on that little boy you're married to. I'm sorry for being so harsh about your husband. It angers me to hear the things he is doing to you. You are definitely doing all of the work yourself. I know you are probably scared of being without your husband. But, there is gonna come a day where you are going to have to make the decision to stay or leave. There are men out there that will treat you so much better than your husband is treating you. My advice to you, is practice some tough love on him. Give him an ultimatum to help make your marriage work, or you are leaving. Make sure you have a place to stay lined up. Then, the most important part, follow through with it if he calls your bluff and actually leave. He will either chase after you or he won't. If he doesn't then you are better off without him at all. Please, for yourself and your daughter, don't let this man treat you like this. You are a person and deserve to be loved and respected. It's either find someone who loves and respects you or live a life of misery with this man. Things can get better with him, but only if he acknowledges his issues and takes steps to correct them.


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## Xusan

Gah! You're both seeing my frustrations. I'm not flying blind here. I know my husband is acting like a child, and it's confusing me! He has defininitely not always been this way. Up until my daughter was 7 months old, my husband was a highly paid professional. He wore a tie to work each day and went through hell to support us. Before we had our daughter, we both agreed that I would stay home while he worked. There is no reason why he can't work now. He just isn't. In the meantime, we're building up a humongous debt. I'm looking for part time work and trying to wean my daughter, so it's not so traumatizing to her when I leave.

He doesn't aspire to be famous with his music. He just wants it to be part of his life. I understand that. The hard part is being ok with knowing that he is sacrificing our wellbeing to do it. I keep telling myself that he fully supported me when I was going through grad shool. But, things were different then. We were both working full time, and we didn't have our daughter.

I keep wondering what my life would be like with someone else, or just no one else. I keep wondering if it would be better. But, I want to be sure I've done everything possible to repair my marriage before I decide I'm done. There's more to my story. I have no exit plan. We're estranged from both my parents and my extended family. I have old coworkers that are friends, but that's it.

He was once a man who took great care of us. I don't think he felt cared for, and, he's just not ready to be all in again.

He 180ed again that same night, hugging me and being affectionate. My heart is so confused. I feel myself retreating inwards. I'm slow to anger, but also slow to happiness. I don't know who I am anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

Well he's a puppetere and you are his puppet.. Sorry to be so blunt but he is controling you how sees fit for HIMSELF only.. How long can you endure this??? Yoiur reaching for the good times and trying to shed off the bad.. Keep trying but see the picture for what it is.


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## Xusan

I already know I can't change him. So, my options are looking bleak. Is there no positive choice? Are the choices simply: 1. Endure or 2. Leave?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

What other choices you see?? You can't control him or his actions only yourself. Marriages only work if they both try.. If he has no interest in improving what's the difference?? The love dare teaches you to love without anything in return.. That's the endure part.. I am not sure you want to endure or not. Something tells me you want more..


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## RestlessInGeorgia

Please, please, please, figure out an exit strategy and apply some tough love to him or else he is going to walk all over you for as long as he sees fit. Your marriage is no longer about giving to each other. It's about what he can get from you and him throwing table scraps of affection your way. He either sees the changes you have made and doesn't care or is blind to all of the changes. Either way, it's really not looking good for you in the long-run. I know it's a tough decision, but he really needs to see what he is losing. The only way that will happen is if you show him what he's losing, by leaving him. The longer you put this off, the harder it's going to be. 

I don't know your friendship situation, but you may want to find a friend to stay with until you can afford a place of your own. You are utterly miserable there. And, you can force your husband to watch your daughter everyday. Since he's not working, he has the time. And, since you will need a job, yours and your daughter's needs trump his need to live in fantasy land with his ignorant dream of his stupid music. 

He really needs a reality check and fast. Do yourself a favor and move out as soon as you can. You will thank yourself for it later. Right now, he is able to know that you will be there every evening and will take whatever **** he gives you. He doesn't see you as anything better than a whipping post or a dog to throw table scraps of affection to. You are a human being and deserve to be treated way better than this ******* is treating you. If he doesn't come around after you leave him, then you will find someone else more worthy of your love and affection.


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## Xusan

I really want to know that I've done all I can to work on myself and my marriage before throwing in the towel. Mort Fertel, and maybe Gary Chapman too, all say one year is a good amount of time to wait till pursuing devorce, etc. If you start counting from our initial, big fight. I've got another month.

Looking back ove he past year, I don't think our marrage has improved much. My husband is simply not treating me with the love he used to show in all his actions. Even when thngs are good, there is anger and despair underlying all his actions. Now, his smile is gone too.

We've just had a couple weeks of good days. He was loving, affectionate, and spending lots of time with me and the baby. He was spending lots of alone time with me, too. It was wonderful. He only thing missing was his, "I love you." He used to say this to me multiple times a day and always when we parted. nHe last time he said his was on our anniversary. Now, he says something else, a nonsense word, but it's not the same. Though I miss the words, I'm telling myself to be ok with this. Afterall, everything else was in place. He was doing so many things that he hadn't been doing before, like giving me neck massages and touching me lovingly as we passed in the hall -- touching me anytime we passed each other. I was overjoyed! Of course, I knew our problems were still there. I knew something would happen.

Today, somehong did. We were at a fountain where we let our daughter walk. She loves watching the water, and there is a ledge around the fountain that is just the right hight for her to practice walking. She gets very excited and speeds right along. So, I put her down and she proceeds to zoom away from me towards her dad, who is sitting a ways away. I follow behind, but not close enough. My daughter falls off a step and crashes down on he concrete ground, hitting her head. I'm horrified. I dive towards her and scoop her up, checking for injuries and comforting her. Her head looks ok, no blood, no bump. Of course she's upset.

I look over at my husband and see that he is very angry. He doesn't say anyhing, but as our day continues, it is evident that he is really mad. Everything I say and do elicits a roll of the eyes, a sound of derision, or an angry retort. For example, he asked me if there was an electronics store in the plaza we were in. I ask him what for, so can get a picture of whether he needs a Fyrs or Best Buy, or if we can just pop into a Target. He doesn't answer me, but just looks more and more angry. I ask him a couple other times and he finally says he's looming for a camera. He says he can't believe I didn't know that even after talking for half an hour in the car about gettng a new camera...Ugh. There are tons of reasons why he might want to go to an electronics store, music equipment, a new video game. How was I to know? But, I guess I was.

Later, he suggested walking somewhere to have lunch. I asked if Wendy's was ok. He got upset, rolled his eyes and said he already told me anywhere was fine. I told him here was a car behind us. He asked why he should care. It would stop, and anyway, he heard th car.

I asked him why he was angry. Was is because I let our daughter fall. He said yes. He needed me to take good care of her. She could have fractured her skull. I appologized, telling him I should have been closer to her. I knew that step was there. Somehow, I thought he would catch her. I told him I knew that he needed to trust me to look after her safety and that I would be more vigilant. I asked for his forgiveness. He said nothing. My daughter fell asleep in his arms.

When we got to the Wendy's. I got our food and fed him while he held our daughter. He let me do this, but he is still cold. I'm not sure if he accepted my appology.

Any exit I make, I think, has to wait till my daughter is five. We don't have anyone we trust to watch her. I'm willing to enndure till then and hope that my marriage improves and I don't have to exit. Tough love might work, but I think it's cruel. I only want to perform loving actions, even if that's not what I'm getting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corpuswife

I'm sorry this is happening. I just hope that you don't lose yourself and self esteem in the process.

You realize that you are a pushover to him now? I believe his behavior will escalate over time. 

You say you can take it but how much longer until you D is 5? In the meantime you may want to evaluate your career choices or schooling to better yourself in the job market. Get out of the atmophere if only for awhile. 

You are the scapegoat for everything right now. You are willingly to take the blame and ask for forgiveness. I think this is a mistake as to not have a backbone.

I understand the no "regrets" attitude. I have the same thing...I did it all. It's a year this month. 

I sound negative and I apologize if I am too blunt. I'm all for saving a marriag and keeping people together but not under the NO MATTER WHAT conditions.


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## Xusan

I'm already lost and am trying to define a new me. It's hard. 

I hate being a doormat/pushover, yet have no idea how to break out of this new mold I've created. One of my faults was selfishness. So now, I try to practice selflssness. How do I do that and still remain strong? Is that even the right question?

It really concerns and terrifies me that you think his behavior will escalate. Why do you think so? Is it because I'm already letting him walk all over me? How do I turn this around? Tough love can't be the only way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

Time to seperate i think... You have to take a break...


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## Xusan

My daughter is 14 months old right now. It will be a while before she's school aged.

I'm pretty marketable, job wise. I'm a teacher. I've been on leave for a year and am taking my second year now. Next year, I plan on going back to work while my husband stays home to watch our daughter. I already have a position waiting for me. At the end of that year, she'll be three. 

I think my husband is bipolar.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corpuswife

Such a sweet age. Great! You will obviously know if and or when this is going any further by then. 

I think you can have a happy medium without being a doormat. Tell him what you need sometimes. Expect that he may get upset. Ignore that behavior if it's not appropriate. Don't ask for forgiveness unless you did it on purpose.

Like when your daughter fell. It happens and you didn't do a thing wrong. He was pissed at what? What was HE doing? It could have happened to anyone. The only "sorry" should have been to your daughter. This is an example how you may have approached this situation. Ignore his anger as if it didn't exist. He's being babied for his bad behavior. 

Bipolar. Mood swings?


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## Xusan

Thanks Corpus,

I need this, a step by step, concrete things to do. I have no good role models to follow. My mom is a tyrant. My dad is a child. I don't know what kind and strong looks like in a marriage. I do ask for things I need. He's gotten much better about how he handles it. I need to start asking for things I want, like an hour to just be by myself, in silence. The appologizing is going to take work. I don't ever do things on purpose anymore. Everything he's angry about is not deliberate. It's not passive aggressive. In fact, I have nobidea he's going to be upset by something till he's upset. Ugh. I used to fight him. Then there would be a week of silent treatment from him and yelling/anger from me, after which I would...appologize. 

Now, I just skip to the appologizing.

So, the baby fell. I was the one following her, the one "on call." He was puttig on some new shoes we just bought. He was actually closer to her, maybe 2 feet away, while I was about 4 feet away. My brain just told me our daughter was within his reach. I should have been clearer, maybe shouted something out to him, or just should have been close enough to catch her. I only appologize when I feel I've done something wrong. Sometimes it's not immediately apparant what that something is, but my husband knows and eventually let's me know. God that sounds so lame...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Bipolar. Yes, he has periods where he doesn't sleep at all, or not till the wee hours of the morning. Usually he's writing/recording music. Sometimes he's playing computer games. Other times he says he feels lethargic, so much so that it's hard for him to simply walk about. During these periods he sleeps a lot, not waking till noon, and taking naps 4-6 hours long. These periods usually last a week or so, and I believe they happen monthly, maybe every 6 weeks. I'm starting to chart his behavior to get a better fix on the timeline. I brought this up with him. He doesn't want to take any drugs because he's afraid of losing his creativity. I'm trying to see his anger matches up with his cycles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Sometimes he's depressed during he lethargic times. Other times he's happy, but just very tired.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

God LH. From you, suggesting separation is huge. I'm not ready to give up. We were separated before. It was hell, and not my choice. I won't do it until there's no other way. I'm almost through the Love Dares, ready to start over. This time, I will try to find myself and strengthen myself while I show him love as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

Seperation doesn't men divorce. Just means time out. You guys are not working on it just making it worse. I think he needs to see it's serious. I don't think anything you do or say makes him think that your more then a doormat. Not trying to hurt you but everything I see you type says he has no real deep feelings for you or he wouldn't continue to hurt. At least not right now..


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## Corpuswife

The fact of losing creativity...BS! He will losing his family instead!!

Bipolar disorder is difficult to treat...just as the reasons that you stated. They feel on top of the world and don't want to medicate or don't care to get on meds because of this and or that. In the meantime...their family is dealing with their high/lows and moodswings. 

Be careful that you don't enable his behavior or baby him or make excuses or protect him from consequences. He is being selfish which is highly common with mental health issues.


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## Xusan

Had a good day. Two big things: 1. DH started looking for a job and began renewing his license and 2. I was tired, and told DH I was taking a nap. He was great! He took care of our daughter, fed her and made sure I had a nice, quiet environment. Got an, "I love you," as well. I just need to do things like this more often.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

I am glad your having a good day but hun this will yo-yo if hes bi-polor.. You guys are not working together.. You are trying and he's not.. You might need to have the talk with him and go see somebody. Something has to change or this pattern will continue. You can't walk on eggshells forever..


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## RestlessInGeorgia

Xusan,

If he is bipolar or you suspect that he is bipolar, he needs to get help as soon as possible. You knowing/thinking that he's bipolar will only help you cope with his mood swings for a short period of time. And, if you are not planning on separating until your daughter is 5, you still have 3 years, 8 months to go. Do you really think you can put up with his ups/downs for that long? You may be a strong person, but no one is that strong. Please don't lie to yourself. You will begin to despise him after a short period of time. You are almost at that point now. I think the only thing keeping you from despising him now is fear and your daughter. What are you afraid of? 

If you believe he is bipolar, and from what you have written he may very well be, he needs to get to a doctor and have it diagnosed. You can use a separation to force him to do this. You can tell him that you and your daughter are leaving him until he can either prove that he is not bipolar from a doctor or prove that he is and has been prescribed medication to help him out. He is only going to ruin his life if he doesn't get treated. And, he will ruin yours and your daughters as well. Not to mention, if he is bipolar and hits a serious low-point and does something extremely harmful to himself, or, God forbid, you and/or your daughter. Then, you will blame yourself for whoever got hurt if it wasn't you. Do you really want that on your conscience?

Even if he is not bipolar, he does have some mental issues. They may be issues that require nothing more than therapy. I just hope you do what's right in the end. Good Luck


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## Mommybean

I agree with Restless. His behavior is highly erratic, and he NEEDS to get evaluated for Bi Polar. Treatment can take a while to kick in when it comes to finding the right medications. 

My H is prone to severe bouts of depression, and his actions during his depressed states almost destroyed our marriage. He was so dead inside, it resulted in infidelity, which resulted in a period where he was suicidal and prone to erratic behavior. He has been on meds since May, and that and therapy has given me the man I knew was in there. 

Encourage him to get evaluated...if for nobody else but his daughter!!


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## Loving Husband

Change needs to happen in order for anything to improve. Sad part is the change needs to start on his end and he's not ready too. That's why I suggest seperating. Give him the wake up call he needs or he's going to use you as a doormat. See the writting on the wall hun.. You need to break the cycle and help you and your family out. Move in with family for a short time.


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## Corpuswife

Xusan: It great that you told him YOUR needs. He needs to feel like a participant in the relationship. You have shouldered too much of the burden. That was a good move. I hope he gets the job.


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## Xusan

My DH looked up at me from the dinner table his evening and said, "Thank you for taking such good care of me...I don't do anything for you." Outside, I was calm and smiled. Inside, I was shocked and well, just SHOCKED. I told him he did a lot of things for me, and listed the many positives I had been mentally storing up: giving me time for myself while watching the baby, showing affection wih hugs and kisses and neck rubs, spending family time together, spending alone time together. I told him felt so happy and taken care of when he did hose things. He was thouhtful and a little sad. Then we had a huge hug.

I hope he remembers that moment when his next flip out hits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

Hun this is a pattern.. He goes up and down. bipolar big time. Tomorrow he might yell at you again and be mad.. You really need to try and help him see somebody. This pattern has to break or you will lose it..


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## RestlessInGeorgia

Xusan said:


> My DH looked up at me from the dinner table his evening and said, "*Thank you for taking such good care of me...I don't do anything for you*." Outside, I was calm and smiled. Inside, I was shocked and well, just SHOCKED. I told him he did a lot of things for me, and listed the many positives I had been mentally storing up: giving me time for myself while watching the baby, showing affection wih hugs and kisses and neck rubs, spending family time together, spending alone time together. I told him felt so happy and taken care of when he did hose things. He was thouhtful and a little sad. Then we had a huge hug.
> 
> I hope he remembers that moment when his next flip out hits.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's acknowledging what he is doing to you. He basically just told you that he knows he doesn't do anything for you. You need to remember this and the next time he snaps or goes cold, bring what he said back up to him. He will do one of two things. He will realize he is being ignorant or he will tell you that he didn't mean what he told you. I hope that he realizes, but if he doesn't then you will know with all certainty that he is selfish about his needs only. Don't try to defend him and justify his responses. He's playing a game with you and you are playing along. Games are for the playground, when you're a kid. They aren't for married couples.


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## swedish

Corpuswife said:


> Xusan: It great that you told him YOUR needs. He needs to feel like a participant in the relationship. You have shouldered too much of the burden. That was a good move. I hope he gets the job.


:iagree:

Keep on that path...you *can *be generous and strong at the same time!

I really hope he finds work soon and am glad to hear he is looking. I wonder how much of his mood has to do with being unemployed?


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## Xusan

Things are looking up. My husband has been treating me well. He's MUCH less deffensive now that he's looking for work. He's energized in a positive way. I'm continuing to ask for things and lean on him when I feel stressed/sad etc. instead of being a silent martyr. He's responding very well! We're talking more about hisnpossible bipolar issue in a problem solving way, not an accusatory way. He has other health problems and agrees that he will start exploring what to do once we have health insurance again. I hope this streak continues. I feel like this is the light at he end of the tunnel. Please let it be real.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I've finished Love Dare and will start over tomorrow. I'm curious to see how it works in a nonhostile environment. I have high hopes!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corpuswife

Sounds like a positive time! Keep up the good work Xusan...you are an inspiration!!


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## Xusan

Thanks Corpus. . Means a lot.

I'm trying to be emotionally honest with my DH. It's scary because one of the things that really upsets him is my dissatisfaction with our life. He thinks I always try to find things to be unhappy about. One of the things I changed after the Big Fight was hiding any negative feelings from him. If I failed and he asked what was wrong, I would just claim to be tired. This morning, he asked me what was wrong. I told him the truth. I missed him. I took our daughter to the pumpkin patch/farm the other day. He didn't want to go. I'm back again, today. He's not with us, again. I don't get it. He says he wants to spend time with our daughter. Why doesn't he want to come with us to the pumpkin patch? I asked if it was the location, or if he'd rather we stay home and hang out with him. He said no. He wanted us to have a good time. He just wasn't going.

We currently have a cmfortable raport going. He is affectionate with me and hasn't been disrespecful or cruel. I told him I missd him. He didn't respond, but wasn't upset. What's gong on?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I texted my DH asking how he was. He replied, " Sad." When I asked him about what he said, "job, missing our daughter, and stuff." What is stuff? Does he not miss me? I miss him. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ashley1216

Susan, I stumbled across this post yesterday while researching my own issue with my husband. I sat and read almost the entire thread and as I was reading it, I couldn't believe how SO VERY SIMILAR our stories are.

Now I know as of late there's been mention that your husband could possibly be bi-polar. Definitely possible. One thing that's for certain is that this man is suffering from depression. It is such a terrible illness, and it's what my husband is suffering from -- which caused him to go from a happy go-lucky, loving, very affectionate husband, to someone who can hardly stand to be in the same room as me, someone who can't make eye contact, doesn't want to go out and do anything, flinches when I attempt to hug him, and the list goes on and on. Often times, men who are depressed have a lot of unexplained anger which is something you had mentioned your husband has. The timing also makes sense in your situation, shortly after the birth of a baby. Many times depression is triggered by life changing events such as the birth of a child.

Please, set aside the marriage helper books because the larger problem here, from the sounds of it, is depression. When depression first hit (my husband and I just bought our first home -- he went from SO excited to be buying a house with me to telling me he regretted it and didn't want to be in it with me), NOTHING I did (or still do) made my husband happy. I thought it was me! I went to the bookstore and read books about being a great wife. I'd cook his favorite dinner. I'd offer to give him back massages or rub his feet. NOTHING I did gave me any sort of reaction from him. I just felt like I was disappointing him in every way possible and that I must be a terrible wife.

I stumbled upon a book at the book store that changed my life, literally. It's called Depression Fallout by Anne Sheffield and she talks about the stages the partners of those suffering from depression go through starting with confusion: "Why has someone you love become remote, as though the connection between you has been uncoupled? Why is he or she so distant and dissatisfied, so lethargic but demanding?"

This book really helped me to see that all of the issues I was facing with my husband, the lack of communication, his loss of interest in intimacy and doing all of the things we used to enjoy doing together, his behaviors including irritability, and making me feel as though I could do nothing right, were all due to an illness.

Goodness, I could go on and on here, really, because I feel for you! i know what it's like to be rejected over and over again, and to feel like you lost your life partner. I told my husband when it first happened that it seemed as though someone came and snatched my husband away and replaced him with his ghost as a mean trick. It is devastating, and I commend you for sticking by your husband's side and doing everything you can to make it through with your marriage in-tact. Good luck!


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## Xusan

Oh God . This sounds right. Thank you for posting, ashley. I will go get the Sheffield book ASAP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ashley1216

I forgot to mention the part about "I love you but I'm not IN LOVE with you" - there's a whole chapter in Depression Fallout about this. It's VERY common for someone suffering from depression to not FEEL love for their significant other. Depression takes away their ability to feel, so they draw the conclusion that they must not love their husband or wife. The chapter is called "I love you, I love you not." My husband is emotionally numb - he feels nothing and for whatever reason, his depression is directed towards me, probably because I know him best. Eight months without intimacy and counting...


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## Xusan

Oh ashley, I'm so sorry you're going through such tough times. Eight months . I definitely need to study up on depression.

We've been having such a long string of good days. I'm sick, some kind of flu. My husband has been taking excellent care of me and the baby. He does so with lots of love and affection. This morning he even said though things may be falling apart financially, it didn't matter. He was happy.

Then it happened. There is always a moment when everything stands still. My stomach turns, and my body becomes ice cold. It's the moment when things turn from amazing to hellish, when I have to remind myself to take the next breath and just hope, hope, hope that it's not as bad as I fear.

Things have been going wrong for my DH. The band he recently joined didn't work out. The job hunting isn't turning up any...jobs. Finances are scary. He asked me why all these bad things were happening. I said that was life. He turned cold. He asked me if that was how my life was. I said no. He asked why I would say such a thing then. I back peddled, panicking, and said sorry for something. I can't remember what, anymore. 

I'm going back out there. I'm going to appologize for being negative. I hope he doesn't cut me off. I hate this. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corpuswife

It's Ok to slip up! You are human and dealing with your H and his moods. You sound like a caring person and only want the best for you family. That's to be commended. Many people walk away when things get tough.

It's a difficult job market...my mom's husband was laid off about 10 months ago. He tries and tries...and is becoming depressed. I feel horrible for them. I've been looking for a job for 2 months...no fun. 

Sometimes, when financial worries are present it's hard to see the good things...family, health, a roof over your head. Faith helps me see this...I'm not sure if you are a church goer or even a believer. If you are maybe find a church. It's help me get through my rough patches (H filed for D mid Sept; son in crisis mode; no job; etc).


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## Xusan

Things have been going so well. We had another string of great days. My DH has been going out of his way to make sure I have down time. He watches the baby while I go grocery shopping or just want to relax by playing mini games online. I hadn't even popped on to respond to Corpus. No, I don't go to church, but I am a believer. I've been strengthening my spiritual life as I go through these rough times with my DH. I've been praying each day. It's helped me improve myself, and just helps put me in a hopeful, more peaceful state of mind. 

But, here I am, postIng again. I always seem to come here when crisis hits. I was awful today. My DH has been so wonderful. I don't know why I'm such an idiot. My sister-in-law came home. She offered a fry to my daughter. Both my DH and I said No. My daughter kept asking for a fry. My DH gave in and let her. I was upset, and went into my usual quiet and angry mode. DH was still fine. A little later, I see him folding laundry. Like a complete moron, I exclaim, "Oh! You're folding laundry!". Of course he feels insulted and hurt. He says nothing, but continues to be upbeat, though a bit deflated. Later, he feeds my daughter a carrot after I'd already brushed her teeth and washed her face. I was mad.

As I put my daughter down for he night. I looked back and knew I had been a bad wife today. I texted my DH a simple, " Hello," to test the waters. He responded, using terms of endearment. He was still open to me. I was determined to apologize for my behavior anyway. I don't want to apologize only when I think he's mad, but whenever I think I've wronged him. I wen out and did just that. He was holding me as I apologized. I could feel him getting stiffer and colder, finally feeling him slip away and close himself off. I'm alone again. It hurts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

He's talking to me. He's saying, "Thank you," and being polite. But, he's not there. He's witholding affection. I hugged him. He lay stiff with his hands to his side. He did say, "Night. Night," more than when things were worse. I have go stay positive, focus on positive things he's doing. It's just so hard with all the pain. It's so fresh and raw each time he withdraws, specially after such a great string of days. I have to try to sleep. My daughter will be waking up in a few hours. Please let his heart open up again. Please.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corpuswife

Xusan: What you said wasn't horrible or out of line...it was frustration. I REALLY don't see the harm in it. Of course, looking back, we could have worded our frustration different.

He seems to be step back mighty quick for minor incidents. I am not sure what to think? He's sensitive right now to your moves. You are human and seem like a great mom and wife. Don't expect perfection and total patience. That's not the real world and you know it...

Don't blame yourself. He's a huge factor in this marriage dynamics.


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## Xusan

I know Corpus. I know he's a huge factor. I married an extremely sensitive and volatile man, but I love him with all my heart. We all know we can only control ourselves. And, I feel I can't even do that at times. Again, thank you for talking. It helps so much.

I'm inspired by your strength and wish you reprieve from your sorrows. You help so many people here. I hope karma works quickly and sends happiness your way, soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Ugh. He's no longer even acknowledging me. I don't understand why he became even angrier after I apologized. Did I apologize for the wrong thing? I told him he was so precious to me, and hat every day I didn't make him feel that way, I considered a failure on my part. I said sorry for the things I'd done and told him I hoped he would forgive me. I've seen him react this way before. It was because I had apologized for the wrong thing. I feel like if I hadn't apologized at all, he wouldn't be so angry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I wish I knew why he was so upset!! I want to ask him, but I know that will make things worse. He will be upset that I don't know.   
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

I hate to see you going through this but those issues are there still.. I am afraid this yoyo will continue until they are addressed. You are going to walk on eggshells. Wonder why he's upset. Feel like you did something wrong. Come back scrambling.. The cycle will continue. He has some major issues and I fear for you.. Please help figure out what is going on with him. He really needs to see somebody. Nobody should have to live in such fear to be in a marriage.


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## MarkTwain

Xusan-

I just read most of your posts on this thread. That took a while!

Although you must have been quite "bad" to your hubby to make him flip out so bad last year, it is obvious that he is milking it. I don't want to interfere too much as you seem to be doing so well, but I do feel that there is one activity that people should indulge in very sparingly indeed:

Walking on eggshells.

What your hubby is doing to you (on a bad day) is manipulating you with his coldness and tantrums in order to get what he wants. The stomach cramps you feel whenever you know the nice atmosphere is about to turn nasty (becuase you were not telepathic, or the baby fell over or whatever) is actually a mild form of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD).

Your husband is clearly not 100% mentally healthy. At the very least it sounds like he has low serotonin levels. Or it may be something more severe.

The point is, he is taking you down with him. You said on one post that you used to smile all the time, but now the smile doesn't quite reach your eyes. I think it's high time to get that smile back.

You have done a lot to save your marriage, but now you need to save yourself. Cut back on the eggshell walking a bit, and be prepared to let him throw tantrums. Monitor him carefully. You will probably find his tantrums subside once he gets used to the new you.


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## MEM2020

I think you need to try to learn how to do this:

You seem angry - I need you to say why you are angry and I also need you to be fair with me and ensure your anger is in proportion to the offence. 

Meaning that a tactless comment cannot produce 3 days of silent treatment. That is abusive. There is no way to define an over reaction, it is like porn - you know it when you see it. 





MarkTwain said:


> Xusan-
> 
> I just read most of your posts on this thread. That took a while!
> 
> Although you must have been quite "bad" to your hubby to make him flip out so bad last year, it is obvious that he is milking it. I don't want to interfere too much as you seem to be doing so well, but I do feel that there is one activity that people should indulge in very sparingly indeed:
> 
> Walking on eggshells.
> 
> What your hubby is doing to you (on a bad day) is manipulating you with his coldness and tantrums in order to get what he wants. The stomach cramps you feel whenever you know the nice atmosphere is about to turn nasty (becuase you were not telepathic, or the baby fell over or whatever) is actually a mild form of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PSTD).
> 
> Your husband is clearly not 100% mentally healthy. At the very least it sounds like he has low serotonin levels. Or it may be something more severe.
> 
> The point is, he is taking you down with him. You said on one post that you used to smile all the time, but now the smile doesn't quite reach your eyes. I think it's high time to get that smile back.
> 
> You have done a lot to save your marriage, but now you need to save yourself. Cut back on the eggshell walking a bit, and be prepared to let him throw tantrums. Monitor him carefully. You will probably find his tantrums subside once he gets used to the new you.


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## Xusan

Im trying to cut back on the eggshells. It's a form of dishonesty to walk on eggshells all the time. It's. So. Hard. I caved and asked him why he was so much more angry after I apologized. After some guessing by me (all the stuff I posted last night), he told me he was furious that I didn't know or was pretending not to know.. It was because he felt I was ganging up against him with his sister, who has an "All men suck" mentallity. I don't feel i was doing this. He said it was probably PMS. I said, even so I wanted to know. I didn't want to use PMS as an excuse. DH spilled water on a blanket. I went to throw it in the wash. It was already dirty. DH felt it didn't need a wash. Ok. That was fine with me. Later he decided to wash it. At this point, it seems his sister made some comment. I missed it. When my DH told me about it, and it was obvious I was hearing the commen for the first time, he yelled the F word and stormed away, asking what the point of talking was if I didn't even hear his sister. So, now I know a little more about why he's mad. But, he's angrier than I've ever seen him. He's locked himself in the bathroom, a first. I'm at a complete loss.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarkTwain

Your domestic situation would be considered difficult at the best of times. Living with the SIL, and her family is crazy and cramped.

However, your husband has become like a little child, throwing a tantrum every time something happens that he is not happy with. He takes it out on you whether it's caused by you or not. You have bent over backwards to accommodate him, and he has grown used to you quacking in your boots and tiptoeing round him.

It is not necessary to talk to him about this. Talk is cheap. All you need to do is have a talk with yourself. Decide what sort of interaction you want with him, and go about executing your side of it. You can't dictate his responses, but you have total control of your own.

Now about your stomach cramps when he turns on you. I know this is tough, but there is a way to deal with it. The next time it happens, focus on the feeling in your stomach, and legs, and anywhere else affected. Just feel it. At the same time breath deeply form your stomach. With repeated uses, this exercise will cause your stress-reaction to become less and less. This man is bullying you. It's up to you to become so open that it jsut blows through you like wind through a picket fence.

This method is the opposite to having boundaries. Some people prefer to use boundaries, I prefer to yield if possible. That way nothing touches me - I don't exist. I don't always succeed


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## Xusan

I want to hear more about your method, MT. How do I let what he says and does blow through me? I'm already calm when we talk, not cold, calm. 

We just had another talk. He asked how I would feel if our roles were reversed. At first I didn't understand where he was coming from. He continued, saying what if we lived with someone who had a bad attitude about women and he said and did nothing to deffend me? I agreed that would be awful. I'm supposed to be aware of his needs and feelings. I'm his wife. I wasn't there for him. I should have been more aggresive in deffending him. Inaction was just as bad as lashing out. I want so badly to be what he needs. At one point, I thought I was making a breakthrough. He was paraphrasing what I was saying, and it looked like he was happy that I was getting it. Then, I kept talking, and he withdrew again. He said he felt like he was wasting time because I was PMSing. I told him I would figure it out. I wasn't going to let PMS be an excuse to hurt him. I'll chart my cycles. Whatever. I don't care what I have to do. I feel like I've really failed him. I told him that and said I hoped he would forgive me. 

I'm off to read more about PTSD. 

I have the stomach cramps, now. I'm able to practice your technique MT. I also have no appetite. I know I need to eat, so I will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corpuswife

Xusan: You are expecting too much out of yourself. Being a good wife has nothing to do with charting your every move so that you won't upset your husband.

How much effort do you think he's putting into the marriage?

Has he screwed up?

Have you screwed up?

Yes..of course. We all do.

You aren't responsible for his unhappiness.

Let him throw his tantrums like MT said...ignore that childish behavior. It will be good practice when you daughter begins to do this!!


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## Xusan

Ha! You made me laugh.  I will try to ignore the tantrums...let them blow through? I will continue to be nice and loving. It's the minute to minute existing that is tough. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

He's not putting any effort into the marriage. He doesn't think marriage should be work. For him, a good marriage comes naturally from love. If the love is true, then the marriage should be great! Ours is a wreck, so my love must be faulty....because it's not him. These stonewalling times have lasted from hours to months. So far, it's been a day. I hope I get some sleep tonight. 

No touch. He's ignoring mine, but allowing it. He's using terms of endearment and still speaking to me. I hear anger in everyhing he says. He's waitng for me to say or do something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I hate not knowing how long I will have to endure this lack of affection. I hate not knowing whether I should say something or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I think I will try Love Dare again. Last time, it worked. But, obviously, something didn't stick. It took nearly all 40 days until we were "normal". There were times during Love Dare that were tough, when my DH lashed out. Something about the process brought him back to me, though. Still, it's disheartening to see that after a year, we are still in the same spot, having the same problems. I feel like such a failure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

When I apologized earlier, my DH said I didn't sound sincere, just tired. He said I just wanted the situation to end and just go back to normal. In a way he's right. I do want things back to normal, but that doesn't make my apology any less heartfelt. What does he need to hear? What can I do to make things better. He is waiting for something, and the l ger I take, the more I feel him slipping away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarkTwain

Xusan said:


> I want to hear more about your method, MT. How do I let what he says and does blow through me? I'm already calm when we talk, not cold, calm.


Look at your recent post:


> When I apologized earlier, my DH said I didn't sound sincere, just tired. He said I just wanted the situation to end and just go back to normal. In a way he's right. I do want things back to normal, but that doesn't make my apology any less heartfelt. What does he need to hear? What can I do to make things better. He is waiting for something, and the l ger I take, the more I feel him slipping away.


What you are doing is letting his mental illness run you, as if he were normal, and you were the unhealthy one. However in so doing, you are becoming unhealthy. Yes you can make him happy by doing everything he wants, never challenging him, and being nice all day. But that's very disingenuous. And it never ends. You will always be kept on your toes - reacting to his every sigh and eye-roll.

OK so in the past you used to snap at him a lot. You admit that. But for a year you've tried everything to improve. And you have. To a fault.

You "let it all blow through you" be being the best person you can be, and not caring if it's not good enough for him. Life only ever asks us to do our best. Once you're doing that, you can't go any higher sweetheart 

So give yourself a break. You need to become a lot firmer. You can tell him when enough is enough without snapping. Let him know when he's being an ass, and don't be afraid of his reaction. You main fear is that he might leave you. That is what is driving your stomach cramps. But if you carry on like this, you will pray for him to leave you eventually.


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## Xusan

I'm most afraid that he won't love me again. That's the truth. Even after gong through Love Dare and trying to love unconditionally, there it is. I want to be loved and cherrished and wanted. I'm afraid he will just stay in this holding pattern of deliberate witholding with me, while he showers love on our daughter and the rest of our family. I've seen that he can do that for quite a long time. How do I make it end, short of leaving? This has been my dilemma.

I worked on me. I continue to do so. I know I need to swing back to the middle, because I went from aggressive to passive. I need to find assertive. The pain, and fear, and sadness and loneliness are so overwhelming. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

Xusan why do you want love from a man who doesn't care about hurting you?? Why are you torturing yourself?? His issues are to great for you to expect his love. He needs to work on himself first before he can love you.. I think you want something he won't be able to give you. That is a loving relationship. You are his toy and he uses you as he ses fit.. That doesn't seem very healthy. I can't see why you subject yorself to it without him wanting to address ANYTHING he is doing..


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## dobo

He is emotionally abusive. You don't need that...


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## Xusan

LH, why do you want your wife to love you?

dobo, I've been googling "withholding affection." I see that it's reffered to as emotional abuse everywhere. DH doesn't see it that way at all. He figures he's perfectly justified for not being affectionate because I "treat him like crap." How do I get him to even see that he is abusing me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loving Husband

We all want to be loved.. yet my wife isn't constantly trying to hurt me or being totaly selfish. She is battling issues she sees now. Problems with herself and trying to work through them and I am trying hard to help her. I am not saying you shouldn't love your husband but your in a situation thats very damaging to yourself. It's time to SEPERATE.. See if he can work on himself. The love dare is a tool to loving unconditionally. Not a fix. It's about giving yourself to that person. You have we have all seen it.. Yet your husband wants to hurt you.. He doesn't care what its doing to you. Are you ok with this life style? If he doesn't change are you ok with it?? I doubt it. Now what do you think will make him CHANGE??? Your there. Your loving him unconditionally.. He has no reason to change himself. Now if you left maybe it can help you.. Just a thought. I would like to see some peace in your life and for your child. He needs to learn to be a man..


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## Corpuswife

Xusan:

The sad fact is you can't GET him to see anything. He's blind to what he's doing as he doesn't care at this point.

He cares more about satifying his feelings. You are a wonderful scapegoat for him and you shoulder all of HIS burdens.

You are tired and eventually you will detach, a little at a time. It's called self preservation. 

Eventually you will come to your own conclusions on how your daughter's mother deserves to be treated.


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## Xusan

My daughter blew me kisses from across the room for the first time, today. I teared up. . I shared this with my DH and he said she'd blown kisses before. It felt like he was trying to diminish my story. I explained that she's blown kisses many times before (usually to him), but not to me. I'm usually the one holding her and leaving with her.

I know I'm a party to how I'm being treated. I allow it by staying. I just don't want to give up!! I don't want the only way to change my situation to be leaving my situation. I see my DH and my daughter playing together every day and can't be the one to take that away from them. I have to stop this eggshell existence. When and how? It's so scary when things are good. If I share my real feelings and thoughts, I'm afraid of starting a period of withdrawal, which are so painful. Then, I think, why not now? Just pour it all out. I have nothing to loose. He's already angry and withdrawn. But, I don't. I fear it will make the withdrawal longer or permanent. So, my life continues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarkTwain

Xusan said:


> It's so scary when things are good. If I share my real feelings and thoughts, I'm afraid of starting a period of withdrawal, which are so painful. Then, I think, why not now? Just pour it all out. I have nothing to loose. He's already angry and withdrawn. But, I don't. I fear it will make the withdrawal longer or permanent. So, my life continues.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Be true to yourself  That is firmness.


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## dobo

> Then, I think, why not now? Just pour it all out. I have nothing to loose. He's already angry and withdrawn. But, I don't. I fear it will make the withdrawal longer or permanent. So, my life continues.


At least permanent would give you a clear sign as to which way you should go.

You really don't have anything to lose. And further, you aren't causing his behavior. He's choosing it and using you as his excuse. He could choose to deal with his unhappiness in a hundred different ways, none of which would be harmful to you or your family. Instead, he chooses to be abusive to you. If you are suffering, at least he feels that he has some control and some power in life. 

What if you stopped responding and went out and got yourself a life that doesn't require him? Then what would he do? Who would he have to blame then? Who would he abuse then? (Your daughter? Perhaps. Maybe he should think about that and ask himself that very question...)

If you want to change the dynamic, you have to change yourself and your responses to him. Stop giving him so much power. He abuses power and doesn't deserve it. So give it to someone who does deserve it -- YOU.


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## Loving Husband

dobo said:


> At least permanent would give you a clear sign as to which way you should go.
> 
> You really don't have anything to lose. And further, you aren't causing his behavior. He's choosing it and using you as his excuse. He could choose to deal with his unhappiness in a hundred different ways, none of which would be harmful to you or your family. Instead, he chooses to be abusive to you. If you are suffering, at least he feels that he has some control and some power in life.
> 
> What if you stopped responding and went out and got yourself a life that doesn't require him? Then what would he do? Who would he have to blame then? Who would he abuse then? (Your daughter? Perhaps. Maybe he should think about that and ask himself that very question...)
> 
> If you want to change the dynamic, you have to change yourself and your responses to him. Stop giving him so much power. He abuses power and doesn't deserve it. So give it to someone who does deserve it -- YOU.




:allhail:


:BoomSmilie_anim::bunny:


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## Xusan

Well, I chickened out. I don't want seperation right now. I have nowhere to go and finances are a nightmare and about to get worse. I'm in at least till my daughter is 3. So I have to work with that in mind. I delivered the apology below, for better or worse:

1. *I'm sorry for my behavior the other day, sorry for ganging up on you with your sister and making you look like a bad dad in front of her.

2. *I was mean to you and I feel terrible that I acted that way. *I'm supposed to build you up, not tear you down, and I utterly failed. *I made things worse by not addressing what was really wrong.

3. Restitution- Making Ammends:
You're a good man, a wonderful husband and father. It's out there for everyone to see if I just stop undermining what you do. I love you. **

4. *No more male bashing from me. No more standing by when it happens and no more participating in it. I trust you with [DD]. I know you have her best interests foremost in your mind and I will cheer you on instead of getting angry.*

Please forgive me.*

Delivered apology. Left out some key things about our daughter. Number 3 got a reaction. It's because his love language is Words of Affirmation. I went to hug him. He didn't hug me back.*

Sister poked him in the foot. I told her not to. DH said I was defending him from the wrong thing -- playfulness. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I'm reading what you said more carefully, dobo. You're not necessarily advocating seperation. You're just saying I shouldn't do my part to continue the cycle. Let him be withdrawn. Whatever. Do things for myself. Live a good life, regardless of how he's treating me...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dobo

Yes. That is what I am saying.


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## Xusan

For a couple days, DH has been nice, conversational, even helpful. Still, he takes care not to touch me. He kissed me once when I gave him a hug. He's touched my shoulder a couple times. At night, he entwines his legs with mine. But, he will not initiate hugs or kisses, and stands rigid when I hug him or kiss him. He talks to me like everything is fine, asks for my opinion and uses terms of endearment. He shares personal thoughts and reminisces about the past with me. I don't understand what he's doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

He's being the sweetest man, except for the physical contact. It's very confusing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I oddly feel more comfortable being myself while he's like this. This morning, I forgot the baby's food in the house on our way out. This would have normally caused my DH to become irritated and put him in a bad mood. This time, he very gently said I could run in and get it if I wanted, and that was that. He went about the morning with a sunny attitude. He's patient and more than willing to hold and care for the baby while I tend to domestic matters. I don't feel as panicked as I normally would. Though I miss the connection with him, I don't feel like it's excruciating to exist through the next minute. I wish I knew what was going through his head. 

A few of you have commented that it must b difficult to live with my sister-in-law and her children. It's definitely a full house, but I think it relieves more stress than it adds. Before, when it was just me, my DH and our daughter, I would feel so, so alone. I like having his sister around. She also does her share of household chores. It's great having someone to regularly help with cooking and cleaning. Though many of he conflicts b/n me and my DH would not have happened had we been living on our own, I don't regret our living situation. Our problems exist independent of our situation. They've just now had a chance to come out, and I'm glad to be able to see them and cope with them now.

Things look bleak. My DH most likely has mental issues that he is reluctant to address. He doesn't see that he is doing anything to contribute to the deterioration of our marriage. He is emotionally abusive. Yet, I still have hope. I love him and my daughter very much and will fight tooth and nail to salvage our marriage. I have issues too. I've become the worst of doormats, constantly questioning my own judgement. I am dishonest about my feelings, and I feel an urge to lash out at my DH any chance I get by agreeing with people when they point out one of his faults. That last bit was a tough admition.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Many of you have said that the way my DH is acting is abusive. That's what he says about me. I've been reading things online about emotional abuse. I was surprised how much of what I read described my life. I'm beginning to document.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

It's so strange. DH is now somewhat returning my hugs, but will not touch me with his hands...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Started reading Steven Stosny's blog. 
Anger in the Age of Entitlement | Psychology Today

He's a psyhologist who specializes in emotional abuse. I'm learning a lot about how things got to this point and what I can do about it. I'm starting to understand my DH better. I also see how I've helped to create this situation. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarkTwain

Xusan-

In your very first post in this thread, you made it sound like you had provoked your husband, but you did not really go into detail. so it was hrad to tell if is 18 month rant was fair! Care to enlighten us?


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## Xusan

Sure thing. I unreasonably expected him to help out more around the house and with our baby. I was overtired and couldn't keep the house tidy, prepare meals, and take care of my husband and my daughter the way I wanted to. Even though I knew this was my failing, I expected my husband to happily pick up the slack and care for me and my feelings. I wanted him to take out the trash more regularly and take care of our baby while I made dinner or took a shower. When he didn't do these things, I would sulk until he asked me what was wrong. Sometimes I would tell him in an angry voice. Sometimes I would lie and say nothing was wrong when we both knew perfectly well there was.

In the meantime. Work was getting much tougher for him. His workload increased, and his micromanaging tyrant of a boss was becoming more micromanagey and tyranical. The night it all went down, he was dealing with all my attitude, his work, and also his feelings of failure after losing our savings in the stock market.

I kicked him when he was down.

I was being a bottomless pit, not trully happy, even though I had his love and we were all healthy. All I could see was our messy house and my failure to keep up my end. I was full of self pity and resentment for what I saw was his inabilty to pull his weight.

We reconciled in December, and he showed me What a Wonderful Life. I learned to appreciate what counted, and we were going strong for quite some time. But, he never really was the same after The Big Fight. He never really regained his trust in me to care for his heart. As he put it this past August, he still wasn't in love with me, though I don't buy that one bit. He is just massively hurt and angry and isn't letting go of those feelings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I'd like to add that I also frequently chose to address the baby's needs before my husband's. I would hand him a crying baby and jump in the shower, instead of just putting her in a bouncer and let her cry it out. We both felt that each of us should come first for the other, then the baby. At the time, I told myself that our daughter needed me to do the things I was doing, when really, it just made her more comfortable. I sacrificed his needs many times to tend to our little one. This played into a huge fear of his that I would love the baby more than him. Here it was, coming true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

The following is an excerpt from Stosny's blog:

"Living with Them
Living with a resentful, angry, or emotionally abusive person turns you into someone you are not. As you naturally grow defensive and resentful about being blamed for your partner's negative feelings and bad behavior, you lose touch with your core value and begin to vacillate between contempt and pity, passing through guilt and self-recrimination along the way. Understanding the difference between compassion and pity and their relationship to trust is crucial to recovery."

I think his is a good description of what's happened to me and my DH.

The rest of the blog entry can be found here: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/200806/love-without-hurt-boot-camps-compassion
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

My husband is sleeping on the couch. We're all sick. I'm coughing. He says he just wants to sleep.   
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

He usually cares for me when I'm sick. That's stopped. He no longer cares if I get hurt, whether it's a bump, a scratch or an illness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I went out and covered him with a blanket. He said thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I have never felt so low. I'm ready to call it quits. I just want to gather resources and map out a plan. I'd like to exhaust Steven Stosny's methods, too. I will not do this impulsively, though my body is thrumming to act now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

My husband is on the couch again. I feel so alone. I wish there was someone out there who would just hold my hand. I wish someone would give me a hug. I feel cold all over. I wish the painwouldjustend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarkTwain

Xusan said:


> I'm ready to call it quits.


This is the boundary your husband needs to see. Up until now, you have demonstrated that he can do anything he likes and you'll stick around.


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## Loving Husband

Until you LEAVE and change your marriage dynamics you will NEVER improve. We have all been telling you this I know its scary but the abuse has to stop.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarkTwain

Hi Xusan,

Thanks for answering my question.

One more question. Obviously on that day he let you know exactly what he thought of you... but did he ever hint at his unhappiness before that time?




Xusan said:


> Sure thing. I unreasonably expected him to help out more around the house and with our baby. I was overtired and couldn't keep the house tidy, prepare meals, and take care of my husband and my daughter the way I wanted to. Even though I knew this was my failing, I expected my husband to happily pick up the slack and care for me and my feelings. I wanted him to take out the trash more regularly and take care of our baby while I made dinner or took a shower. When he didn't do these things, I would sulk until he asked me what was wrong. Sometimes I would tell him in an angry voice. Sometimes I would lie and say nothing was wrong when we both knew perfectly well there was.
> 
> In the meantime. Work was getting much tougher for him. His workload increased, and his micromanaging tyrant of a boss was becoming more micromanagey and tyranical. The night it all went down, he was dealing with all my attitude, his work, and also his feelings of failure after losing our savings in the stock market.
> 
> I kicked him when he was down.
> 
> I was being a bottomless pit, not trully happy, even though I had his love and we were all healthy. All I could see was our messy house and my failure to keep up my end. I was full of self pity and resentment for what I saw was his inabilty to pull his weight.
> 
> We reconciled in December, and he showed me What a Wonderful Life. I learned to appreciate what counted, and we were going strong for quite some time. But, he never really was the same after The Big Fight. He never really regained his trust in me to care for his heart. As he put it this past August, he still wasn't in love with me, though I don't buy that one bit. He is just massively hurt and angry and isn't letting go of those feelings.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Yes. We have a few issues that keep coming up: 1. He doesn't feel I protect him, 2. He doesn't feel I'm ever satisfied with our life, 3. I'm not upfront about my feelings and instead keep them bottled up. These are ongoing issues that have been present since almost the beginning. I have worked to change my behavior, but now things I wouldn't ever guess were slights are seen as full blown attacks. I have disowned both my parents and the person who I considered to be my mother all in the name of protecting my DH. The only issue I'm really struggling with atm is the 3rd. I'm in such an eggshells mentality that I'm afraid any little thing will set him off, that if I tell him I'm feeling pain and why, all he will hear is blame. I think he'll feel so angry and ashamed that he will withdraw and withhold even more.

If I leave, I have to leave in a way that I feel is right, a way that allows for the possibilty of healing and reconciliation. The way is becoming clearer, but I'm not there yet. It's so easy to just tell me to leave. Where will I live? How will we eat? These are things I have to figure out. I'm a mother now. I can't just jump in he car and drive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarkTwain

Xusan said:


> The only issue I'm really struggling with atm is the 3rd. I'm in such an eggshells mentality that I'm afraid any little thing will set him off


I thought you had decided to stop the eggshells nonsense? 

You see walking on eggshells only happens when people want to make a deal. You are trying to make a deal with him. You are trying to earn his love and respect by walking on eggshells. It is barely working.

When you finally reach a point where you are prepared to say to yourself NO DEAL - he will pick that up. You don't have to leave him, and he does not need to leave you.

You are only making these deals out of fear. Once you drop the fear, you won't be bothered about making any deals.

Does this make sense?



> that if I tell him I'm feeling pain and why, all he will hear is blame. I think he'll feel so angry and ashamed that he will withdraw and withhold even more.


You don't need to tell him anything. Your fearful attitude is already telling him all he needs to know. He knows you are afraid of him, and that you will turn yourself inside out to keep the peace. When - and if - you change your internal attitude, when you no longer care about making deals, he will pick that up without you saying a word. He's not a fool. He already knows he's hurting you. He can't help himself out of his own weakness. He needs you to be strong enough to feel NO and to eventually say NO. When you reach that point, his behaviour will change. To talk to him now will just signal further weakness. He can't stand the weakness he feels in himself. So the last thing he wants is to hear your weakness. 

He feels weak becuase of losing all that money in the markets. He has not got over that. He blames himself. If you show him strength and firmness he will probably calm down. You will be surprised what you can get away with. Be brave. You are tough, but you are not brave - yet. But you certainly have the strength for it


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## Xusan

...You make a great deal of sense. Thank you MT. What you've said very much resonates with what I feel. I just have to conquer the fear and be true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I've been reading a lot. It feels like Steven Stosney is writing just for me. I bought his book, Love Without Hurt, which talks about emotional abuse and explains ways to make it stop. My DH and I are in a honeymoon period. We've had these before. He's treating me extremely well, giving me attention, affection, even saying, "I love you!" He's even been going to sleep at the same time, something he hadn't been doing for a long, long time. He said he wanted to change his schedule!

Tonight, something is different. I feel the tide turning.

Stosney calls for me to show my DH compassion. He believes when someone hurts the one he loves, he is also hurting himself because he is violating one of his core beliefs, to love and protect the one he loves. In order to have compassion for he abuser, one has to not allow the abuse to occur, even if that means leaving. Stosney suggests some things to do before taking such a step. I'm working on hose many things now. God. I hope it doesn't progress to the point where I have to leave, but I know our cycles. We always come back around. Many of you have already expressed that I should have left long ago. In the meantime, our daughter is growing up.

I'm so glad that she's the happiest little girl ever. She has smile that just makes your heart sing. I love her sooo much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I can't sleep. I'm so scared.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## needshelp

Xusan,

I think you still have a chance. I truly don't believe that your husband does not love you anymore, and I say this because I have been with my husband for almost 17 years (high school sweethearts as well) and I feel the way your husband does right now. I have never felt this way and I am certain that these feelings or lack of feelings for him are because of extreme anger, hurt and resentment towards him and not because our deep love is just gone. However, I am feeling right now that if he doesn't change his ways, I can't stay with him and so as a defense for my own emotional well being I think I have convinced myself that I don't care and that I'd be better off and much happier without him. We have had the same issues for our entire relationship but after 2 children and the fact that we are not 15 anymore I had hoped that these issues would get resolved. I think a big problem for us and for you is that we never really lived and learned through past relationships because there weren't any. Also, I know in my case he does not take seriously that I will leave if he doesn't stop his behaviors because after all these years because I never have. I think your husband is trying a desperate attempt to get your behaviors to change because past discussions haven't worked. And I'm sure there are behaviors of his that could use some working on too. I think communication is the key. In my case I communicates and he pretends to listen but only "changes" for a week or two and then it's back to the same. It sounds like you just need to tell him what you need from him so that you don't "snap." And then ask him what he needs from you. Also get a babysitter and get out of the house. Good luck to you


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## Loving Husband

Xusan said:


> I can't sleep. I'm so scared.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How much longer are you going to put up with this??? For your sanity and your kids happiness..


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## Xusan

needshelp,
Thanks for your words. I KNOW part of the problem is not experiencing other relationships. There was so much trial and error. One the plus side, all that history has certainly bonded us more tightly. On the minus side, we carry lots of scars. Though, I guess even in a new relationship, there's no clean slate. We all have a history, even if it's with different people.

I'm getting a lot better at telling my DH what I need. He's responding very well to that. I know he much prefers that I let him know than goin silent and broody myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

needshelp,

I don't snap anymore. I haven't since the Big Fight, over a year ago. My problem is that I went too far and became a doormat and someone who constantly walks on eggshells. I'm turning that around now. 

For the first time, I think I'm really making progress. My daughter just accidentally chipped my DH's front tooth. I told him it would be ok. We could get a dentist to refinish it and make it good as new. He went cold. I thought, "Oh, oh," and asked myself what he must be feeling. Maybe he thought I was saying he looked bad. I just knew a chipped tooth would irritate him and didn't want him to go through the agravation. I told him his and assured him he was as handsome as could be. This seemed to make him feel better. Than he said he didn't want to have any work done because of the cost. I said this was something worth spending money on. He disagreed. He went cold again somewhere around his point. The old feelings of dread, the stomach pains and despair flooded through me. I hugged him good night. He didn't return the hug, nor did he look at me. I said, "Night, night.". He said nothing. I felt unloveable and worthless.

Then, I thought of my daughter and how well I care for her. I thought of how well I took care of my DH. He stomach pain evaporated. So did the chill that usually comes with these episodes. I'm sad, but I don't feel worthless. I know I'm ok. My DH is the one who is really hurting. He's not doing this because of anything I said/didn't say or did/didn't do. He is hurting, and hurting me is making him hurt even more! I'll do what I can to help him. In the meantime, I'm ok with myself. I can smile. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corpuswife

Good job Xusan! You did some serious thought stopping and it worked. 

You are worthwhile. Know that his hurt isn't because of you. It's because of him. He's making that choice.


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## Xusan

Thanks Corpus,

Again, it's a huge comfort to know that you're out there!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Things have been steadily improving since I posted last. My DH improved in so many ways, so did I, so did we. He started spending more time with me and our daughter. He showed that he cared about me through affection, helping much more with the house and baby, and planning downtime activities with me in mind. I just ha the best Mother's Day ever.

Yet, I'm back. And, that always means things have gone South, big time. Our road here wasn't straight. He still doesn't spend as much time with me and the baby as I would like. Once in a while, he'll speak down to me still, or snort like he thinks something I've said is stupid. But, overall, I couldn't have been happier.

Tonight, we brought our daughter to he emergency room. She had a very high fever: 105.2 degrees. She's recovering and looks like she'll pull through unscathed. When we brought her in, we were a team, worried, and distraught, but connected. I let him know he was a wondeful father and husband. Everything changed when we were at the hospital. My husband asked the doctor a question. The doctor was rude and said something harsh about my husband not listening. The doctor asked me to repeat what I heard. I did, thinking it was what my husband had initially said. The doctor said I had repeated his instructions correctly, but my DH had not. I was confused! I thought we had said the same thing. So far, my DH was still ok. He was annoyed by the doctor, but still connected to me. Then a nurse asked my DH if the doctor misunderstood him. My DH looked at me and asked if he had repeated the doctors instructions correctly. I told him I didn't remember. That's when he went cold. We continued to talk about what to do about follow up with our daughter. His tone and manner quickly continued to turn hostile. He started to question me like a prosecutor. I told him it was not okay for him to be mean to me.

I talked to him about what was happening to us right away. He said he was upset that I didn't support him with the doctor than again with the nurse. I apologized and admitted I had made a mistake. It didn't matter what I heard or remembered or who was right and wrong. I should have supported him. I asked him if he could forgive me. He said he didn't want to talk about it at the hospital, where people could hear. We didn't talk on the way home. I was reviewing all I had learned from Steven Stosny, girding myself for the trials I knew would inevitably come.

Our DH just threw up all over our bed. I asked my DH to move so I could change the sheets. He moved to the couch. When I was done I let him know nhe didn't come back to bed. I went and asked him if he was coming to bed. He said NO. I covered him with a blanket and went into our bedroom. Here I am. I feel like this could be the end.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I'd like to point out that the 'not supporting me' bit is a direct derivation of the abusive personality. If he says it often enough, you grow to believe it's your job to support him, unconditionally.

It isn't.

It's your job as his wife to help him see when he is hurting himself, you, or others. As best friends should.

If he won't allow that, if he punishes you because you dare not let him suffer his own consequences (such as with the doctor), then he has not changed, and you should leave.

Often the abuse victim will become so good at sensing the 'coldness' as you call it and jumping through hoops to keep it at bay, so that you get a false sense of things being ok. They are not ok. They are just held at bay because you are sacrificing YOURSELF just to keep the peace.

That's not a marriage.

And you don't want your daughter growing up learning that is the norm, or else SHE will end up marrying someone who treats her the same way.


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## Xusan

I agree with most of what you say. I've never looked at the supporting thing in the way you put forward. You made me pause, and I have to mull that over becuase this is THE issue he has had with me throughout our almost 17 years together.

I agree that this is no way to live, for me, our daughter, or my DH. I want to let him know that what he does is hurting me and is not justified because he feels wronged and is himself in pain. I will lay it all out and see what he says. This is the moment I've feared for so long and have lacked the courage to actually do it. That fear has now been overridden by my desire to have a true, loving relationship. I am ashamed that I haven't told him my feelings sooner. This shame is holding me back. I've basically been lying to him by walking on eggshells. I know this is going to hurt him so much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You could be describing me 100%. Lying, shame, eggshells, his inability to have anyone consider him anything but perfect and right all the time...

That's why I tell you to stop coddling him. I protected my DH for almost 30 years, never let him really hear what people were saying about him, how they had problems with him, I always defended him...and all it did was convince him that he WAS right all the time, and how dare I - or anyone else - EVER question that he wasn't right all the time.

And because of it, we spiraled down to the point that, well, it's untenable. Because he never had to face his own issues. I protected him. Now, when he yells at a cashier, I have learned to walk away and let him earn his own shame, rather than try to defend him to the cashier or the other witnesses who can't believe he's being such an a$$. I have a mile-long list of events.

People have told me that he may suffer from OCPD. You may want to consider it. Mine fits it a little, but not alot.

In the end, though, you telling him is actually helping him. I've started telling my DH the truth when he does these things. I think it's helped a little. But you don't change that overnight.

I would recommend you either leave, or set VERY high goals for him to remain in your life.

A book that helped me with the shame is Healing The Shame That Binds You. It may not apply to you, but it's very enlightening anyway, even if it doesn't. And it almost surely applies to your husband.


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## Xusan

I did it. I told him it hurt me when he withdrew affection and spoke down to me or yelled at me. He confirmed that he has not been in love with me since my original post, almost 2 years ago. He said he wasn't going to change, that his behavior was a reaction to me and therefore ok. He confirmed that he didn't want to stay with me after our daughter was grown. I told him I was done. He asked if I was willing to throw everything away. He only did his once a month. Wasn't it worth keeping it together? I'm about to turn all our lives upside down. I still have to say NO. It's not worth it. I don't want to be treated badly, even if he good days outnumber the bad. We've given it almost 2 years. I'm feel I've tried all I can. This was the last effort. I feel anguish and relief and fear and wonder what the next step is. How do we handle our beautiful daughter? She is the ultimate loser in this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Ask HIM:
You only do this once a month. Isn't it worth keeping your family together for you to get into intensive therapy so I'll want to come back to you?

I'm pretty sure she'll be better off NOT living with him 24/7. And she will DEFINITELY be better off having a mother who's not one step away from despair all the time.

The one great regret I have is not leaving when DD19 was younger, so my husband wouldn't have had such a big influence on her.

Oh, and also point out to him, if you have to continue these conversations, that every time he tries to blame YOU for HIS actions, he hammers one more nail in the coffin of your marriage.


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## Xusan

He left. He said he was staying at his parents' house because he was too angry and in too much pain. I asked him if he was willing to find a way for us to stay together. He said he had already found a way. We'd been living this way for 2 years. I said what about a way that doesn't hurt me. He said not to expect him to find a way for me. I said I didn't expect him to find one but hoped we could find a way together. He said to quit dancing around if I had an idea. I gave him Love Without Hurt, by Steven Stosny. He looked at it, saw that it was about emotional abuse, said it was for me. I said yes, but there were things in there for him, too. He angrily and disdainfully poked it and said no. I wasn't even emotionally abusing him. I simply didn't care. I don't want to leave. I want to work on things. But, he is unwilling to change. I feel bad for telling him I'm leaving. I feel bad for considering taking away his daughter. He loves her more than anything. I wonder if the good days are worth it. I wonder if I can even go back. He may feel too betrayed.

How could he tell me he hasn't been in love with me for two years?! He's angry because I told him he could take as long as he needed, as long as he let me love him. He's let me love him and now I'm leaving? What am I doing? I thought I was standing up for myself. Why do I feel like the bad guy now? Am I the bad guy? I'm not even the yell at people type. Do I have to bark at everyone we meet to keep my pseudo marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

God. I think I am willing to live like this...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wannakillnow

Hi... I am new here and I just become a fan for this forum...I also have posted my issue here a day ago..
Anyway... looks like totally same situation to me except that part - husband say he doesn't love you..
My wife also totally same.. She also upset and angry very easily for small things that I inquire or request. Maybe I request stupid things all the time or maybe I ask something she does not like... In my oppinion, the problem is you both do not undertand well each other. You both do not know what your partner like. You both do not kow what say can make your partner upset and also do not know when you both stop questioning or request... Maybe its only my case, but guess maybe similar to you also. Myself, also many times want to leave from her, I mean not divorce but just cooling down myself alone but after sometimes.. because I know very well how much she loves me, I have nothing to concern about her because I respect who is she. We are all different individual and different chracter so we can always argue or fight.. but yes, afterall, we need to solve or let partner cool down by communication.. Yes.. communication is the most importany part in marrige life. If you can't coomunicate well, you won't have good relation with your partner and also your partner won't tell anything that he/she might be irritated. So they each other will show their fake soul more n more and later all the time...
What I want to say here is... communication. Study how to tell before you really have an important communication with your partner which I usually do... It will help a lot.


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## turnera

HELL no, you are not a bad guy.

You just DARED to stand up to him, finally, for once. 

Go read some books about abuse, and you'll kick yourself for waiting so long and putting up with so much crap.

Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, by Bancroft, is the BIBLE of abuse. Go get it tomorrow.

Half the stuff you said he said, I would have predicted, based on that book.


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## Xusan

Is there no other fix than to leave? In order to repair things, must I leave? I thought I'd exhausted all avenues. I was so proud of myself. Then, I told him I was going to leave. I thouht I did it calmly, but no. I did it out of anger and pain and shame. I don't trully want to leave. I want to be valued and loved. Maybe it might be just as good to say I want a unicorn...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarkTwain

Xusan said:


> Is there no other fix than to leave?


If you have not already, you might like to read about the broken popcorn machine. It's just possible you might have one on your hands:
"Popcorn"

Assuming your husband was not always like this, I am guessing two possibilities:

1) He simply had a crisis and went mad - and now his mind is warped. Perhaps he even has brain damage.

2) Something major happened to him that he kept secret from you. He may have had an affair, or he may have had some really really bad news. 

Either way, the guy is no longer able to function normally with you, -and possibly- even with anyone.


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## turnera

Xusan said:


> Is there no other fix than to leave? In order to repair things, must I leave? I thought I'd exhausted all avenues. I was so proud of myself. Then, I told him I was going to leave. I thouht I did it calmly, but no. I did it out of anger and pain and shame. I don't trully want to leave. I want to be valued and loved. Maybe it might be just as good to say I want a unicorn...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 It's important to understand that when you marry someone with a personality disorder, you just don't get to have the normal life people expect to achieve. You can have one or the other: leave him and find a guy who isn't driven by his dysfunction, or accept the dysfunction and stay and acknowledge that you will always be unhappy. But hey! you'll still have him.

Now, I can give you teeny tiny glimmer of hope. I've seen it work once or twice. But it WILL require you leaving him. In this scenario, you tell him you DO want him, but you have boundaries for your physical and mental safety. If he wants to be part of your life, he will have to accept those boundaries. And part of those boundaries, should they include HIM, would have to be him going to therapy for a good 2 to 5 years, so that he can learn where the dysfunction comes from, achieve humility and acknowledge his problem, and then recover from it.

Only THEN could you consider moving back in with him - AFTER that period, not DURING. Why? Because the instant you move back in with him, he WON. And he QUITS caring about what you want. Because he WON. That's how they think.


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## Xusan

I called him a couple times, wanting to let him know I didn't want to leave anymore. He ignored my calls. I reluctantly texted him with this information when he ignored me. He just called. I told him I was sorry for saying I was leaving. I told him it must have really scared him and hurt him and that i was sorry for making him feel that way. *I said I wanted to continue living together and asked him if he could do that. *He was so angry. He said he didnt know. *He said he didn't know who he was talking to. I might just flip things around tomorrow and say I couldn't live with such an abusive husband. *He said I should write an email so he could show me when I flipped things around the next time, but then I would just say he was brainwashing me and telling me how I feel. *Then he hung up. *He's never done that before.

He said I was really mean to him. *I'm not sure what he's talking about, here. Telling him I wanted to leave or telling him he was hurting me with the things he does. I don't know.

He was also mad that I let him think I was still leaving for a whole day. *I wanted to tell him over the phone, and texted him this afternoon when he kept ignoring my calls
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Tomorrow, we'll have been together for 17 years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You are acting EXACTLY like an abuse victim.

Have you ever researched what mentally abusive people are like? You should. It would really open your eyes.

Start with Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, by Bancroft. 

You need to educate yourself on what you're dealing with. Or you'll find yourself 30 years from now, a shell of a person, because all your personality has been beaten out of you by his blame and criticism and victimhood.


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## Susan2010

Right now I think she needs to research why abused women stay in abusive marriages. It seems why he abuses her is a little less important at the moment than understanding her own feelings and why she actually wants to continue being abused.

As much as that, Xusan needs to know that her feelings are normal as far as the breakup is concerned. The abuse factor aside, every woman would react this way because it is nearly impossible to process "I don't love you anymore." Breaking up is extremely difficult anyway, but she now has a gamut of elements to contend with and try to process - breaking up, the abuse factor, he doesn't love her - each of which causes a myriad of emotions unto themselves, and all of that is on top of what she has done to herself. If his abuse wasn't enough to degrade her, she has reduced herself over the past two years by making keeping him the priority and so much bigger than her self esteem and sense of self. Pride aside, he is not the only one who doesn't know who she is. Xusan is unrecognizable to herself. At this point, the beautiful and desirous young woman who knew herself to deserve love and admiration now thinks herself completely unworthy. And what his more if not worse, he has her thinking she destroyed her marriage but doesn't understand she is not the only one to blame. They both destroyed it.

Xusan, I think I summed you up half way decently. Unfortunately, I have no suggestions that might help you. Maybe someone else does.


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## Xusan

I've read Stosny's book on emotional abuse. He says abusers abuse because they are feeling core hurts such as guilt and shame because they are violating their own core values. In my husband's case, I think he is constantly feeling like he is not protecting us or providing for us the way he so wants to. To stop from feeling this shame and guilt, he lashes out in anger, then withdraws emotionally.

According to Stosny, I'm supposed to access my own core value, realize that I'm worthwhile, and have compassion for my DH, then act from a place of compassion. That path is unclear to me right now. Our daughter is almost 2. I'm returning to work in August. I'd rather live with my broken machine than have anyone else watch her. If he returns, I may reevalute when she's older...

I'll definitely read Bancroft, though it sounds like she may offer no oher solution than to leave.

I'm wary of pursuing the leave and let him do therapy thing. How do I do that? Just drop the ultimatum bomb and leave? It sounds so cruel. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

It sounds cruel because you have been conditioned to think of HIS well-being before your own. Abusers make sure of that. They do it one little criticism at a time. 

Tell me this: If you had gone out with him for the very first time, and he told you "You're not pretty enough for me. I think you need to lose about 20 pounds if I'm going to keep dating you," what would you have done?

They don't work that way. They nudge and nudge and nudge, one little put-down or negative word or sneer or silent treatment at a time. You keep thinking, it's just me, bad day, etc. Until you no longer can tell the difference.


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## Susan2010

_According to Stosny, I'm supposed to access my own core value, realize that I'm worthwhile, and have compassion for my DH, then act from a place of compassion._

Turnera, please tell me this is not a book you suggested for her. I mean, this isn't really what it says, is it?


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## turnera

No, that's not the book I suggested.


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## cb45

i want to offer up another idea:

yer H shouldnt expect perfection from u when he too isnt 
perfect, and u've already admitted some blame for your 
"snaps", but as important is yer words, volume and demeanor.

u give alittle by saying how u tell him u love him but......SO WHAT? 
SHOW HIM u love him, as in that tksgiving dinner u made. thats what
gets his (n most mens) attn. SHOW SHOW SHOW, for u stated he used
to show how much he loved u. (shark infested waters etc, rem?)
U need this attitude also, digg?

His need clearly is: "SHOW ME, and I'll show you"

maybe he needs the same from u. maybe he feels he's the
giver, and u r the taker all these yrs? maybe hes stressed
out from work too. who knows? u should.

saying i love you is a good thing, but not enough.
better when we SHOW it, which is a great thing.


worth a try wouldnt u say?

peace-------------------------------------cb45


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## Susan2010

cb45, she has spend the last two years SHOWING him. Did you read he whole thread. It's an awful lot of pages. You must have missed a lot.


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## Xusan

D'oh. You guys don't buy into the whole compassion thing, huh?

I think I should think of his well being before my own...I also think he should think of my well being before his. He used to...

I'll go to the library and get Bancroft's book. Perhaps there's a way to preserve myself within the marriage? I don't understand boundaries and how to set them. Flat out say it is unacceptable for him to do x? Or else what? I leave? I need to read. I don't know enough about this idea to even ask about it. All I've been studying has been about unconditionally loving a spouse and trying to understand that the abuse comes from feelings of shame and inadequacy on his part.

If my daughter weren't so young, if she were potty trained, I think I would have an easier time letting go. I would rather put up with this painful situation than have a stranger look after her. She's so young. I think she'd feel abandoned. I know this situation is damaging to her, as well. The ideal would be to have 2 parents who are lovng to one another. It pains me that I failed to give her that. Truthfully, the choice may have been taken out of my hands. I've moved to reconcile. My DH is currently at hi parents' ignoring my calls and texts and this email: I'm sorry for not supporting you the other night. *I know it just makes all the other times I've failed you rush back to the forefront. *I keep playing the evening at the hospital over and over in my head and see that I could have easily said a number of things to back you up. *I said none of them and profoundly hurt you. **I was so wrong. *I wish I hadn't acted the way I did. *I know it will be a mark of shame on my heart that I can only hope to make up for by standing by you, and jumping in front of you when need be, in the days to come. *I hope you can forgive me, return to me and give me a chance to make ammends. *You were wonderful that night. I felt very secure. *I wish I had given you the same feeling instead of doing the opposite. 

Worse, I had tunnel vision in the car, when I told you I was leaving. I could only see my own feelings and didn't think about yours, the very thing I was complaining about.  You must have felt so hurt, angry and scared and just helpless. *You'd been trying to make the best of things, to live a happy life with me, even though you're no longer in love with me, for these past 2 years. *You gave me all I'd asked for and more. *I repaid you by hurting you in the worst way possible. *I told you I was leaving, which means taking [DD] from you. I'm deeply ashamed that I even considered doing that. *I never thought there was a worse offense than cheating on your spouse. *Telling him you're leaving and taking his child is worse. *I'm not taking her away. *I won't take her away. *I'm so sorry I caused this deep fear, pain and sadness in you. *I hope I can build up a home with you again. *I hope such a hurt can be repaired. *Please give me the chance to do so. *Please forgive me. *Please come back. I want to be with you. I want to raise our child with you. It is my great hope that I can earn your trust back and, once again, have the honor of being the caretaker of your heart.

It scared me to write this letter because I know I will ultimately fail to protect him. I cannot possibly yell at everyone who offends him...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Turnera, are you still with your husband? How does he react when you leave him to yell at the cashiers on his own?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Ugh. Trying to update. My DH just sent me a long, heartfelt email and I need feedback. Having technical difficulties posting.


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## Xusan

Ok, here's the email:

You said so many hurtful things yesterday that you didn't address in the email -- that I'm emotionally abusing you, I never own up to any of the things I do, that my reaction to you breaking a promise is worse than your betrayal, that you only agree with me after an argument sometimes because I tell you how to feel (which would mean brainwashing, I guess...so I'm a severely abusive, manipulative, and controlling man, that you want to spend the rest of your life with?) Why didn't you feel the need to mention any of these other statements in the email? Is it because you haven't changed your mind on those points, so you'd rather avoid touching them? What the doctor did and your lack of support (human mistake, like you said, and I agree) were dwarfed by the monotoned, insincere apology that followed. You said sorry, but it sounded like "here we go again with Ian's issues". No, you don't understand -- you do intellectually but not emotionally -- why it's so important to me to have the support of my partner in the face of the attacks of others, so you don't care as much. It's just like your mom not caring that you have a problem with comments on appearance or your dad not caring that you feel dog poop on the carpet is a huge deal -- not an issue for them, so they get bored dealing with people who care about that stuff, and act accordingly toward them. When you said you are frustrated because you don't know how to act around me now because you don't know what will make me mad or hurt my feelings, you sounded EXACTLY like your mother complaining about walking on eggshells. And now, your email reads exactly like hers: "I'm sorry, I've been insensitive, I'll be better."...at superficial glance, it seems like the right things were said, but just like the feeling you got from her email, I feel yours is not so much a heartfelt and truly empathetic apology, as it is a well thought-out, but clinical, request for me to let you have another shot at walking on eggshells. Just like your mom, maybe you'll be better at playing the game this time, so my attention won't be drawn at the end of the day to the fact that you still simply don't like having to keep your guard up for me all the time, all the while resenting me for it. When things changed last year, it was because you were habitually taking me for granted (to simplify) and it broke me. You said you'd be around, trying your best to get back into my heart, forever...but I can go for weeks being the world's best dad and husband, and all it takes is a rude and degrading tone in my voice as a response to a relapse in your behavior to become scum of the Earth and someone with whom you just can't live with. It was heart wrenching when you exclaimed that I was emotionally abusing you...the wife that hours prior was gazing longingly into my eyes praising my job well done. What caused that change? My tone of voice? My rude, immature manner? My temporary lack of affection after being hurt? Really? That's all it takes to tip the scales against my attention, protection and caring? One minute, I'm supporting my girl in her time of illness, the next, my baby girl is being taken away from me because I was being rude after reacting badly to another broken promise? I felt like I was squirming in pain and you were standing over me, holding [DD], running you hand over your chin trying to think of something to say to get me to quit my bellyaching. I never thought I'd miss the days of you in tears after something like this, us sitting on the bed and you holding my hand and really talking to me like I was the most important thing in your life, and explaining exactly how you hurt me and how it wouldn't happen again. That was true love, and it healed me. Now, it's like you're just going through the motions, with your excuse being that I've changed, conviniently glossing over that you are the one who broke me and promised to fix me. I've been trying since then, but whever a ***** in the armor let's out some of the pain, you acuse me of abusing you. You sometimes in your anger claim that I demand perfection, but then other times you say that what I ask of you is simple and easy. Similar, contraticting statements have become a pattern from you, and each time you cycle back from mad/not mad and back again, you make a statement that is supposed to somehow discount everything you've previously said, like "ignore anything I said yesterday that is the opposite of what I'm saying now." Often times through the years, I have asked the not mad you what you would do if you were me, and you say that you would have left me by now, and that you don't know why I keep giving you more chances...statements that would no doubt be explained away by the mad you as more brainwashing. I want to get these two sides of you in a room to battle it out, cause it seems like they are in far more conflict than I am in with either one. Then there's the you I like least of all, the new, since last year, uncaring you. This you is the most hurtful, because at least some of the mad you's comments can be reasonably explained away as hyperbole made in the heat of argument. The uncaring you is worse, because she is cold and calculating. She speaks sternly and without passion to me like I was someone else's petulant child in need of discipline. It was this you that "apologized" at the hospital, said she was taking [DD] away, and handed me a book so I could go fix myself. This is the scariest you because she is loveless and uncompromising. She is tired of losing and will not cry, either for or because of the evil man in front of her. You say that I have been treating you bad immediately following getting hurt by you, and it is true, but it is this third you I have been dealing with lately in these situations, and it's as if I'm not even speaking to you anymore in those cases, but some bodyguard/lawyer you've hired to step in for you. If you switched to the not mad you, I would feel protective regardless of the situation, and up against the mad you, I would feel hurt but like It was still you I was talking to and not be as angry and abrasive. You know, like before I was broken, I would listen to you quietly or say stuff evenly, cause I guess I reacted to you in those cases still as if you were someone that had strong positive emotions for me, regardless. Now it's like, "Can I please just speak with [Xusan], Mrs. Bodyguard? I know she's authorized you to attack me in her stead, but I'm not sure she feels I'm abusing her and I don't think she wants to take [DD] away from me." It seems that the bodyguard has overtaken the other, sobbing uncontrollably because you love so much it hurts, you, because there just isn't enough love there to make you feel for me that strongly anymore, mad or otherwise.

PLEASE ADVISE!!


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## turnera

I'm still with my husband. But because I put up with the crap for so many years (25+) without setting any boundaries, I have maybe about 10% love left for him. I love him as a person, but I daydream about him going away and never coming back. Because I'm too weak to leave him and I feel responsible. Because of the 30 years of protecting HIM from himself, just as you do. Because of all the years of adapting myself to keep from hearing him criticize me. Him telling me we can't visit my family because the laundry isn't done, or the papers aren't filed, or the remodeling isn't finished...so that I'm obsessed with getting my house in 100% perfection so he can no longer use it as an excuse (because I was too weak to just say "Sorry, I have a right to go see my mom."). Because of his inability to see ANY imperfection in himself so that if I even question whether he called before we drive an hour to an appointment, he blows up at me for not 'supporting' him - his word, not mine. Because of all the years he'd say "I should have just stayed at work cos you don't want me at home" or "You just want me for my paycheck; I might as well just go kill myself." I could go on for hours.

Until someone got tired of listening to me whine, and sent me to marriagebuilders, and I discovered that there are solutions. And they start with boundaries.

A boundary is simply self-protection. It is literally a boundary, a wall. It's you deciding what you, as a human being designed by God and therefore sacred, deserves in your life. Such as not being physically abused; that one's easy. The harder ones are the intangibles, such as in your situation.

Does your H deserve your support? Absolutely. Within reason. As long as YOU are being supported by him. I could explain the MB program if you like. If your H is not really abusive, just misunderstood, too pampered and supported so that the relationship is skewed, you CAN fix the marriage with the MB program. I did, although I didn't give it 100% effort because I'd already fallen out of love with him. But I did it and it worked; he came around, started giving again. If I decide to invest in the marriage again, I'll have a really good one, I think, now that I know about boundaries and all. Right now I'm just treading water for a variety of reasons. But the program works because it's based on psychology: you can't make your partner do anything, but you CAN create an environment where he feels safe and wanting to please you.

Assuming he's not truly abusive. We can't decide that for you. That's why knowledge is so important. 

As for how does he act when I leave him to the cashier? Ten years ago, he would have screamed at me when he got outside. He would have punished me with silent treatment. He would have stormed all over the house, banging things. He would have done a bunch of things that taught me over the years to avoid angering him.

Now, after I've had some talks about how I don't deserve to be yelled at, how it hurts me when he does such things, and how I won't put up with it...he has toned it down. He still snaps. But he doesn't blow up like he used to. And surprisingly enough, he actually listens to me when I tell him that such an action makes HIM look bad (his biggest fear), and has toned himself down - all because I didn't stand next to him and support him, and let him see the look on the people's faces.


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## turnera

As for his message, I can't tell for sure. I do know he sounds just like my husband. Full of hurt - real or designed. My husband HAS to be the victim; it's how he deals with the world - he thinks it gives him an advantage, so that people 'owe' him something. Which of course comes from his insecurity.

I only read your last 5 pages; let me go back and read the whole thing, and I'll give you my impression on what you're really dealing with.


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## Xusan

Thank you so much, Turnera. Your situation sounds exactly like mine.

I've been so scared to death to tell my DH how I feel. I've finally done it and it's caused my marriage to implode. I constantly wish that he would just disappear. Things would be soooo much easier. Then, I feel guilty and ashamed for thinking that.

I've read the marriagebuilders website. Steven Stosny's book, The Five Love Languages, and Love Dare all talk about creating an environment that encourages change. I've been living and working those books. I read the marriagebuilders website, too. I know about the Love Bank. I make deposits daily, but my withdrawals my "not supporting" and my "attacking" dwarf those deposits.

Ugh. I can't tell if he's abusing me or just pampered. I don't know! I'm desperate right now. I feel like the longer it takes me to respond to his email, the he will take it seriously.


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## turnera

Then break it down into simplicity. 

Is this death we're talking about?

No.

We're talking about your life, and whether you deserve to be happy. Do you waste your one life making sure someone else is happy, or do you take steps to get happiness for YOURSELF, as well? What would your mother want for you?

It's not death. You don't HAVE to give him anything he wants, right this very minute. Even if he were to take a stand and say YOU are the bad guy and leave you, you wouldn't be dead, he wouldn't be dead. And even if he were to divorce - for any of a variety of reasons - it's still not death. And it still wouldn't mean you wouldn't eventually get back together and remarry. People do it all the time.

But for NOW...I want YOU to find happiness.

If you beg him for forgiveness, take ALL the blame on your own shoulders, IGNORE his sh*tty actions and tell him he's fine, do whatever he makes you do to 'make it up' to him...is that happiness?

No. It's capitulation. Pure and simple. It's a victor winning over his vanquished, and the vanquished 'admitting' it was all his fault, no matter what the true story.

If I were in your shoes, right now, at this point, since it's such a pivotal point in your life, I would tell my husband that I need space. I need time alone, on my own, to think about what I want and need in life, to decide if he will be part of it. And then I would move out, with the kids. Or tell him to leave.

The part of the equation I don't see in your situation is where YOU say what you DESERVE.

Every time your H acts up, gets all huffy, plays the victim card, looks at you and tsk-tsks as if you yet again disappointed him, you CAVE. You CRUMBLE. You BEG FORGIVENESS.

Boy, does he know how to work you.

Are you innocent? Of course not. 

But you married a man with expectations of being taken care of, loved, respected, and cherished. I don't see ANY of that.

And you deserve more, whether you're innocent or not.


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## turnera

I DO know that, in all the crap I've dealt with over the last 30 years, the thinking about suicide, all that...I would NEVER have written that letter you wrote. I would NEVER have begged him and taken all responsibility and blame on myself. 

I really think you should rethink what you said. You're basically saying "I'm worthless and I don't deserve you...so I'll do ANYTHING - just don't leave me."

What would you tell your daughter if you saw HER doing that to a guy?


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## Susan2010

Pressure to conform can be very powerful, and that is what you experience so often. You tell him how you feel, and he criticizes your feelings and the way you expressed them to him. So what do you do? You apologize. Where did your feelings go? Nowhere. Suddenly they don't exist anymore because now, all you want is to conform to how he says you should be. All you want is his approval.

Then, when you apologize, he criticizes and says it wasn't good enough. It wasn't heartfelt enough. It didn't come from the place in your heart. Where did your apology go? Nowhere. He threw it back at you, so you suck it back in and try to figure a better way to apologize, one that he will accept. All you want is his approval.

You finally stand up for yourself to express you don't deserve to be hurt, you don't deserve him being insensitive, and he accuses you of being Jekyl & Hyde and Mrs. Bodyguard too. What do you deserve now? Nothing. You not only don't deserve anything, but 1) he has left the residence, 2) you caused your marriage to implode, and 3) you feel desperate. You still want his approval.

You absolutely have to stop blaming yourself for everything. You have stop allowing him to place the blame on your shoulders. You have to stop allowing him to pressure you into conforming to his will. You have to stop needing his approval. Life is not about living by your husband's permission and approval. Surely you can see by my simple sum of his email, obtaining his approval is not possible. Good grief, you couldn't even express your fear of him and walking on eggshells afraid to anger him. He tore that expression completely to shreds. And that is the exact same thing he has done to you. He has torn you completely to shreds. He has reduced you to being afraid of thinking your own thoughts and feeling your own feelings. And goodness forbid if you express those thoughts or share those feelings. He has reduced you to wanting nothing but his approval. He will never stop. You cannot conquer this on your own. 

I forget what your reasons were that the two of you are not in counseling, but it is truly what you need. Throw those books away. Either something has mislead you along the way, or you have misconstrued their messages. I don't know which, but I know what I questioned before that you said was what the book told you to do - it sound incredibly skewed and misleading. Actually, it sound insanely nonsensical.

You need a new focus. As Tunera is suggesting, there is no one better to focus on than yourself.

Right this moment, you have to accept your marriage is over. You have to stop trying to get him back. You can no more fix your marriage than you can fix him. But, fixing him is beyond your ability, so fixing the marriage is out of the question. You have to arrange for counseling - marriage/couples counseling for both of you and individual counseling for yourself. Hope that counseling can save your marriage, and hope that the two of you will get back together. But for now, accept that it is over and you've done all you possibly could.

Set some realistic and obtainable goals. You clearly have to go back to work to support yourself and your daughter. Stop giving yourself excuses. Your daughter won't be the first child taken care of by strangers who are only strangers until you meet them. Your daughter won't be the only child who has a babysitter or is in day care before she's potty trained. I know you had a plan and wanted different for her, but the dynamics have changed, and you have to change along with them. Besides, if money/insurance was the reason for not seeking counseling, then the sooner you have those the sooner you can get counseling.

In the meantime, look into family services. They offer a lot for single mothers like yourself. Your hope and my hope for you is that you won't be a single mother for long. The reality however, is that you must accept that role for now. That requires you must become a woman of independent means. You must become stronger for your daughter. Allow her to be your motivation right now. And focus on yourself. Focus on your own needs. Focus on your own desires. Focus on achieving your own approval of how you live your life.

I wish you well.


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## Xusan

Thanks to both of you. I wrote this email response to my DH:

All 3 of those people are me. The cold and the mad me exist because I'm afraid of your reactions, but I'm resigned to weather them. I'm afraid to go through long periods of isolation and poor treatment, of having my perspective devalued or dismissed, of hearing you ask, " Did you honestly think x," or, "Why did you ask that?!" like only the most inane person would think or ask such things. You've told me you think I'm smart. Then, why can't you have confidence that I must think x, or be asking y for a good reason?

Yes, I said I would be with you, I would try to get back into your heart and do my best to be the best wife possible. I'm thankful for the time you've given me to do that. It's allowed us to be outstanding parents and given us some tender moments that I cherish. But, I didn't expect to feel continuously unlovable, devalued, and inadequate. The way you treated me made me feel these things. I don't think you would ever wish [DD] to be treated the way you treated me. So, why is it ok for you to treat me this way? I'm confident that I've put my all into being a better wife. I've done all that is humanly possible for me. This is not an excuse to stop. I know I'm far from perfect, and I'll continue to push to improve.

I hoped that you would put your all into being the best husband and father possible. These past few weeks, I started seeing that. You shared your thoughts and fears with me. You were wonderful about letting me take my time in the shower and making meals. You helped out with dishes. You found movies for us to watch together and asked me what I wanted to watch at meal times. You said, Hello and Good Bye, Good Night and Good Morning. You started going to story time. You spent time alone with [DD] for a couple hours while I went grocery shopping. You were sweet about putting away groceries. You were constantly affectionate and kind and always ready with a glass of water. You were going to bed at the same time as me. I was overjoyed! But, now, I fear it will take another 2 years before we build up to this point again, maybe longer. Meanwhile, [DD] will see us being distant. She'll see you being cold, rude and disrespectful towards me. She'll see that you would rather spend your time on YouTube, playing games, or sleeping rather than hanging out with us. She'll see that many of the times you do come out with us, you do so reluctantly. For that is what you've shown us for the majority of her life. You say you're loath to go back to work because you want to spend all your time with us. Please take an objective look at how you've spent your free time this past year.

And yes, it's been hard and easy. Hard because, it's tough to get past my own pain and anger and be compassionate towards you, while I'm under fire. Easy because I love you, I know how to love you, and all I have to do is let it out. My heart is filled with love for you, and it gives me great joy to express that love to you.

Yes, sometimes you tell me how to feel. During the big argument, where you told me you weren't in love with me anymore, you convinced me that I didn't love you or must not know what love is. I believed you and thought myself subhuman and malformed. So, I agreed with you. I must not really love you because I'm broken. Now, I know that to be untrue. I loved you then. I love you now. I've loved you always. I don't need you to believe it to know it's true.

You said, "It was heart wrenching when you exclaimed that I was emotionally abusing you...the wife that hours prior was gazing longingly into my eyes praising my job well done. What caused that change? My tone of voice? My rude, immature manner? My temporary lack of affection after being hurt? Really? That's all it takes to tip the scales against my attention, protection and caring?"

Yes, that's what did it. You ask if that's all it took, like they're small things. They are exactly the opposite of attention, protection and caring -- ignoring, attacking, and hurtful behavior. Both of my polar actions came from a true place. First, the comfort and security I was feeling due to your loving actions moved me to praise you. Then, I failed to protect you, and you became cold. I knew you would withdraw, stop treating me with respect, and begin to lash out. It was time to let you know how you'd been making me feel. When I shared my feelings, you lashed out at me. Then, you left.

I apologize to you when I feel I've wronged you. These apologies are from the heart and it pains me to hear you question their sincerity. I'm always willing to come back to you, and always hope to hear you apologize to me. You never do. You've admitted to doing things that are mean and that is something, but you're not sorry. You don't say you're sorry. I have yet to experience the healing that you experienced when I apologized to you.

I don't want to go back to walking on eggshells and being resentful. I want to go back to a relationship where I can be confident that you'll care for my heart even when you're in pain, where I can express my feelings without -- fear of being yelled at, ridiculed, dismissed, told I have to live with it, or left. I would like to be in a relationship where I can lose my keys, fail to quiet the cat, the birds or the baby, break the laptop, or any number of small things without triggering your anger and disdain. But, I am ready to swallow my pain again and concentrate on loving you. Though, I know that pain will grow into resentment if left ignored. Any harsh word, look, or action that shows me I'm not worthy of your time and attention brings all the old, unhealed hurts to the surface. But, I can't make you stop. I can only hope you will. That hope is enough for me to want a chance again. When you are loving, you are wonderful. And, those times are enough for me.

At the end of your message, you question my love for you. I have told you I love you. I have shown you I love you. I want to continue to love you and continue to improve myself as a wife and mom. I'm doing my best and giving you my best.

You've told me you're not in love with me. That was and continues to be the most painful thing I've ever heard in my life. When you say it, I know it's true. Your eyes tell me it is. It hurts me to see pictures of us these past two years because it documents all the time that you haven't been in love with me. I need you to care about me. You say you're not in love with me, yet you do caring things. You SAY you love me. That's confusing to me.

You expect me to have such strong positive emotions for you, yet express the lack of those emotions for me. What do you think about that? I don't see how you think that's ok.

When I said if I were you I would have left and wondered why you kept giving me chances, my opinion of myself was very low. Each time you ignored me, I felt unworthy of your attention, unworthy of your love. I thought I really must be worthless and low. I wondered why you would ever want to be with such a wretched human. I don't believe that anymore. I still feel deep sadness, but I know I'm worthwhile. I no longer depend on you to show me that.

I'm not in this relationship alone. I'm not solely responsible for your feelings and certainly not your actions. I don't understand why you don't want to change. Are you saying it should be ok for you to hurt me? Or, are you saying you don't know how to stop? Do you feel completely out of control and unable to stop your behavior because you feel I set you off? The book that you dismissed would help with all these things. You can get it anywhere. It's called Love Without Hurt, by Steven Stosny. It's helped me a great deal. I haven't been the best wife and this book helped me along the path to improving. It can help you, too.

I hope that if you come back, if you accept my apology, you do so with the intention to work on our marriage. I didn't wreck it alone and I can't fix it alone.

I make the following commitment to you and hope you will do the same:

I will make a supreme effort to be compassionate to you:
I will recognize that when I’m resentful or angry, I’m really hurt, anxious, or uncomfortable and that you are most likely hurt, anxious, or uncomfortable, too.
I will care when you are hurt, anxious, or uncomfortable.
I will try hard to heal my hurt, regulate my anxiety, and improve my discomfort, and I will support your efforts to do the same.
I will always treat you with value and respect, even when I disagree with you or do not like your behavior.
I will always appreciate the assets and qualities you bring to our relationship.
I will not criticize or ignore you.
I will not purposefully talk over you.
I will not try to control, manipulate, coerce, threaten, or intimidate you or purposefully make you feel bad in any way.
I will try hard to discover and correct blind spots about my behavior.
I will try hard to understand your perspective and sympathize with your feelings, especially when I disagree with you.I will stay true to my deepest values.
I will try hard to be the best person I can be.


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## Xusan

I'm pretty sure the above email will end my failing marriage.


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## Susan2010

Xusan said:


> I'm pretty sure the above email will end my failing marriage.


What do you mean by that? It could be taken a couple different ways.

Gosh, I like that letter. I REALLY like that letter. You are sticking up for yourself and not begging. I hope! I really, really, really hope he doesn't shoot it down. If he does, you will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's him and everything I said in my last post is true. But I hope he doesn't. I really, really do.


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## turnera

It's a great letter, Xusan, very well thought out. But I'm pretty sure it won't have an effect, either. At least not now.

After you leave him, once he realizes what not having you means, he may go back to it, find his humility, and finally think about it. You just never know. So at least you told him.

{{{Xusan}}}


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## Xusan

Haha!! Susan, you're right! I didn't see that! I meant he'll probably leave and the marriage will end. Thanks, both of you, for all your support.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

DH responded:

Go ahead and re-read your first email, then your second. *You wonder why I question your sincerity, then send me two back to back emails that look like they were written by two completely different people.

"You'd been trying to make the best of things, to live a happy life with me, even though you're no longer in love with me, for these past 2 years. You gave me all I'd asked for and more."

vs.

"...[DD] will see us being distant. She'll see you being cold, rude and disrespectful towards me. *She'll see that you would rather spend your time on YouTube, playing games, or sleeping rather than hanging out with us. *She'll see that many of the times you do come out with us, you do so reluctantly. *For that is what you've shown us for the majority of her life."

It can't be both; either I've given you all you asked for, or, for the majority of [DD]'s life, I've been cold, rude and disrespectful toward you. *There's no way both could be the case. -- they can't even be two perspectives of the same behavior.

Also:

"I repaid you by hurting you in the worst way possible. *I told you I was leaving, which means taking [DD] from you. I'm deeply ashamed that I even considered doing that. *I never thought there was a worse offense than cheating on your spouse. *Telling him you're leaving and taking his child is worse."

vs.

"You ask if that's all it took, like they're small things. *They are exactly the opposite of attention, protection and caring -- ignoring, attacking, and hurtful behavior. *Both of my polar actions came from a true place. *First, the comfort and security I was feeling due to your loving actions moved me to praise you. *Then, I failed to protect you, and you became cold. I knew you would withdraw, stop treating me with respect, and begin to lash out. *It was time to let you know how you'd been making me feel. *When I shared my feelings, you lashed out at me. *Then, you left."

You go from telling me that you believe you've comitted a worse act than adultery, then you defend your actions (and throw the fact that I left the house to cool down in my face, though the alternative would have been to either stew in cold silence, or to continue our arguing, that wasn't getting anywhere, until we ran out if breath, and rinsed and repeated, either of which would be more of the same behavior you dislike so much). *You don't truly, honestly believe that what you did was worse than adultry, or you wouldn't be so quick to give reasons why you did it, in an attempt to equivocate and turn the focus back on me. *If I cheated on you (something not as bad as what you did, from what you said), apologized, then quickly explained that I did it because you were being mean to me after I hurt you, what would your response be? "OK, I see your point" "I was asking for it", or "Your right, I shouldn't have been mean, let's call it even and move past it"? *No, and you understand that it was hurtful, yes, but worse than adultery, no, not even approaching, as evidenced by the tone of your second email.

Then there's:

"I'm always willing to come back to you, and always hope to hear you appologize to me. *You never do. *You've admitted to doing things that are mean and that is something, but you're not sorry. *You don't say you're sorry. I have yet to experience the healing that you experienced when I appologized to you."

You ask me to be objective, and you make statements like this. *Any third party reading that would have to take away that I've never apologized. *In 17 years. *For anything. *Is that true? *Of course not. *There's the cessation of the silent treatment, which we bring up often, but was over-looked by your claim. *I also know I've apologized for an outburst or wrongly spoken word here and there, over our time together, but, unfortunately there was no court reporter present. *Further, I know that I'm dealing with a new, empowered you that p'shaws most of what you've said to me when you were your weak, brainwashed self, but we've agreed plenty of times that we get in 99% of these situations because of something you've done or didn't do. *Again, I know that you've disavowed such feelings and thoughts from your weak, powerless past self, so I'm not sure why I even bring things up that you've said over and over and over in the last 17 years before you read your book, as if they were still up for discussion, so let's move on.

"I would like to be in a relationship where I can lose my keys, fail to quiet the cat, the birds or the baby, break the laptop, or any number of small things without triggering your anger and disdain."

Those are not the root cause of my disdain; betrayal and broken promises are. *You are simultaneously begging forgiveness and wagging your finger at me. *That is not the behavior of someone who truly believes she has committed an act worse than adultery.

It seems that you have sunken your teeth into my behavior following your betrayal. *Then, I will say that treating you rudely when my heart is broken is bad in and of itself, and I should do better in the future, and will try.

What else is there for you rail against? *That I don't want to lay in bed when I'm not tired? *Why is it when I do what I want to do when you would rather me do something else, you portray it as somehow dark and selfish, but when I do what you want me to do when I would prefer something else, I'm just doing what's expected; the minimum. *It is insulting that you judge (thumbs down) the quality of my husbanding and parenting by some tally sheet in your head that I could never keep filled up. *I know that I have been a good father, and you implying otherwise because I don't parent your way is a stab in the heart. *And I know that I've been a good husband, someone you are happy with the vast majority of the time, and someone who puts a lot of work and dedication into the marraige, and yet am judged by you to be selfish because of the way I spend my time in between doting over you and [DD].

I have never said, and don't believe, that you aren't doing enough for [DD] or that you were anything but an excellent mother, and the only thing you aren't doing for me as a wife is supporting me when I am assaulted by outside forces. That's it, one thing. *I am very simple. *I appreciate all the little things you do for me, but don't put a negative check mark in an imaginary form in my head when you don't feel like doing them. *They are all icing, and inconsequential to whether my heart is warmed by you. *You, on the other hand, are judging me minute by minute...when's the last time he went to sleep at the same time as me? When was the last time he massaged me? *For how long? *When was the last time he went to storytime? *You determine the value of my dedication and love for you by daily filling out an income tax lengthed form in your head, and I determine yours for me by glancing at a single check box on an otherwise empty page.

The time following your reading of "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" was the best in our marraige, and the time following your reading of this new book enforcing your idea of victimhood has been the worst. *I don't think it's a coincidence. *You've mistaken selflessly giving your all to your husband as weakness, and standing up to him to selfishly protect yourself by any means neccassary as strength. *You've forgotten what simple, predictable, and easy to please creatures men are, and supplanted that wisdom with an over-arching and tunnel-visioned feminist attitude of self-entitlement.

I don't know who you will be when I get home today, but I do know that, in any case, I will still be hurt, dejected, and depressed. *I will most likely not want to hug you, kiss you, or even look at you. *Whether you consider that emotional abuse or not, I can't change it. *You can, but I can't; because you have eminently more control over my happiness than I do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I really am speechless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Susan2010

uuuummmm I can't really say "speechless" is the word. I am disgusted! And I feel awful for you. To tell you the truth, I got halfway and couldn't take any more, then I skipped down to the last two paragraphs for him to finish me off and dump me in the trash. I am exhausted and cannot even imagine what you have endured the last two years. I know this long thread has not even skimmed the surface, and I have no idea how you made it through. I admire your determination, your stamina, your fortitude. I'm not even half the woman you are, Xusan, because my head is still spinning just from his two emails. I do hope you know you simply cannot continue on this way. When he has finished macerating you, what will you have left? Who will you be then? And what good to your daughter?


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## PreludeCkN

Xusan said:


> Hello,
> 
> Last Friday night, my husband told me that I had broken him -- that he didn't love me anymore............. I was shocked and scared and so, so sorry, and willing to do whatever it took to save our marriage.
> 
> We are high school sweethearts, ........ My husband has always been my soul mate. We tell each other everything and share the same interests, values, etc. He has always adored me and tried to do everything in his power to make me happy.
> 
> I have not been the best wife. I snap at him for little things. He gets so hurt and cannot understand how I can be angry about little things if I love him. So, he questions my love for him.
> 
> I love him with all my heart!! I know I have to work on not snapping and have committed myself to doing whatever it takes to make him happy. The problem is, I have been working on this for quite some time.
> 
> ............ He went to work. When he came home I asked if he wanted to talk. That's when he told me I had broken him.
> 
> 
> .......... I don't blame him at all. He just wants to be loved. What can I further do to repair my marriage? Please help!



I am going thru the same thing myself, we just separated 3 weeks ago because of me. I am truely scared to lose him forever. I know you post this a long time ago and I hope that things are better now for the both of you. PLease let me know.


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## turnera

I agree.

You know what I see when I read his letters? an EXTREMELY smart, narcissistic, cruel, self-absorbed, self-righteous man who is used to getting what he wants by being smarter than you. And he thinks that's how it SHOULD be, because he's...well...smarter.

Do you see how sadistic that is?

I also am disgusted. And the sooner you are away from that...man...the sooner you'll realize that you ARE allowed to be happy, you are meant to be, and it doesn't have to be with him. Your guilt doesn't have to control you.

Spend the weekend taking care of yourself, ok? Clear your head of his mind games and start thinking about your future. Go around town and see what things you and your daughter can do as a family without him. You'll be surprised at how happy you will be, once you no longer have to act like a trained dog for him.


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## Susan2010

turnera said:


> Spend the weekend taking care of yourself, ok? Clear your head of his mind games and start thinking about your future. Go around town and see what things you and your daughter can do as a family without him. You'll be surprised at how happy you will be, once you no longer have to act like a trained dog for him.


errrr Sorry, Tunera, you can see in his EXTREMELY so-much-smarter-than-her kind of way, he informed her he was coming home in the last paragraph. He had alluded to it earlier in the same letter, conveniently dismissing his original intention to inform her that once again she got things all wrong and twisted and should have known his original intention to leave her was not his original intention. LOL This guy is a stone trip.


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## Xusan

Prelude, I feel for you. I wish I could tell you we had a fairy tale ending, but that's not how it went. I know my thread is daunting, so you might just want to read the last 3 pages to see how things unfolded. Breathe. Take a walk and notice the beauty of the world. Listen to something uplifting. Know that, cheesy as it may be, endings are new beginnings, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

Turnera and Susan,

You've both expressed the tone of his emails very well. I'm afraid I'm too close to my own situation to see things objectively, so it's nice to get your points of view. Thank you.

He's being very pleasant. He is avoiding the TV, speaking to me pleasantly. It's all very controlled. I feel and see him reigning in, I don't know, rage, pain. I asked him if he wanted to come to an event at a nearby park, expecting him to say his usual No. He said yes. I have mixed feelings about this. I'm determined to have a good time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Susan, just because he's coming home doesn't mean she has to spend time with him. In fact, I urge her NOT to spend time with him.


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## Xusan

I think he's trying to prove he's not abusive by being nice. He's operating with no tools. The situation is bound to explode at some point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I think you're right, on all counts. Just keep your boundaries in mind - what YOU can and can't accept to keep you alive, as a human being, due all the same respect in life as any other person. If he pulls back on any of those points, YOU pull away and do something else. Don't participate. If he bugs you, tries to guilt you, or coerce you, you just say "I need some time." or "I need some space."

There is NOTHING wrong with you saying that. If he can't even grant you time or space, then he is abusing you.


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## Susan2010

turnera said:


> There is NOTHING wrong with you saying that. If he can't even grant you time or space, then he is abusing you.


But we already know he is abusing her. I'd hate to try to nail abuse down as being predicated on a specific action. It makes it seem that action is the tale tell sign and the numerous others weren't. I know you didn't mean it that way.


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## turnera

But to those who are being abused, it often takes a LONG time before you reach the crossing over point. A lot of times like this where you KNOW what you need, you state it, he pushes back, you cave, and you hate yourself. Until you finally reach 'that point.' I'm trying to help her see 'that point' more clearly.


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## Susan2010

Oh, I understand.


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## PreludeCkN

Xusan said:


> Prelude, I feel for you. I wish I could tell you we had a fairy tale ending, but that's not how it went. I know my thread is daunting, so you might just want to read the last 3 pages to see how things unfolded. Breathe. Take a walk and notice the beauty of the world. Listen to something uplifting. Know that, cheesy as it may be, endings are new beginnings, too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh my, I guess I need to catch up, but I was hopeful for you.


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## Xusan

I feel much more in control right now. Before, I would have been in a panic to get back into his good graces, worried that the worse thing in the world would be if he left. Now, I feel so calm. I KNOW I'll be all right no matter how the chips fall. I still care about him. I still love him. But now, you know what? I care about myself, too. I will take any time and give myself any space I need. I see that these things are really mine to give myself. He can approve. He can disapprove. I will do what I need to be well.

So, I read the following in Stosny. It hit the nail right on the head. It's as if he knows my DH.

"At least one of the reasons marriage therapy fails to help walking-on-eggshells relationships is that it relies on egalitarian principles. As noble an idea as it is, this approach can only work in a relationship in which the couple see each other as equals. Remember, YOUR husband feels hat YOU control his painful emotions and, therefore, feels ENTITLED to use resentment, anger, or abuse as a defense against you. He will resist any attempt to take away what he perceives to be his only defense with every tool of manipulation and avoidance he can muster. In other words, he is unlikely to give up his edge of moral superiority -- he's right, you're wrong -- for the give-and-take process required of couples therapy. And should the therapist even remotely appear to side with you on any issue, the whole process will be dismissed as psychobabble."

Nail on head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I told my DH I was going to get my hair cut. I asked if he would watch the baby. He paused, ran his hand down his face, then said yes. I had a plan B in case he said no. So, I did. I got my hair cut for the first time, by anyone but him or his mom, in 10 years. It felt great!!! Then, I went to a Nubi frozen yogurt place for the first time and had a red velvet cake yogurt with white chocolate chips and almonds. Afterwards, I window shopped. I had an amazing, rejuvinating afternoon!! Baby and DH were fine when I got home. For the first time EVER I feel truly free. I'm not jonesing for DH's attention or approval. Nor, do I wish him ill. I feel free to just be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Susan2010

That sounds wonderful, Xusan. Hope you do something like often. I know finances are tight right now, but don't forget to buy something for yourself regularly, even if it's just a few dollars.


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## turnera

*hopping up and down for you in JOY!*

Xusan, can I tell you something? When I started going to therapy about 15 years ago, DD19 was about 5, I'd completely given up my life to make sure husband and daughter were taken care of. I became invisible. I went to my doctor because my back and neck stiffened up and I couldn't move. From stress. Dr. asked me what I did for fun. I thought a moment and said 'nothing.' He asked me what I liked to do for fun. I said read books and needlepoint. He asked me how long since I had done so, how long since I had sat down and read a book. I thought, and said, about 15 years. He sent me to a stress therapist, who gave me exercises to do, but did no help with me believing I had the RIGHT to take time off.

About 5 years later, I got the nerve to go to the work psychologist. She came to the same conclusion. She gave me one piece of homework: tell my husband that I was going to go do something on the next Saturday afternoon. See, since I had been married, I had NEVER taken any time off from my husband; well, I had, but every time I did, he 'punished' me for abandoning him in various ways. I soon learned to never go anywhere without him.

So she told me I had to just go up to my husband on Saturday morning and tell him that I was going to go to the mall by myself. I couldn't. He had conditioned me so well to avoid his wrath that I physically couldn't make myself tell him I was taking time off. I never DID do it, while I was seeing her for 3 years. I was too afraid. He had spent too many years punishing me in passive aggressive ways for abandoning him that I had conditioned MYSELF to believe he would harm my mentally if I took time off.

When I finally did do something, he was fine with it! I was flabbergasted. It turns out that the first 10-15 years of marriage he was afraid I would leave him, so he clutched too tightly on me by making my life miserable if I even seemed like I would want to be with my friends, or mother, or anyone else. But by the time I finally got the nerve to say "I'm going to the store" he was no longer afraid I was leaving him, and he had no problem with it.

But the moral of the story is that I had the right, and the power, and the control all along. I just never knew it. Just like you have the power.


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## Xusan

Wow!! I can't believe how that timing worked out!! What a revelation that must have been for you to see that you were holding yourself back. It's the small things, like going to the store, that are really big things. It's these small things that give us all some breathing room, some respite from the treadmill. Very eye opening to exercise our own power, specially since these muscles have been rusty for so long.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PreludeCkN

It sounds like you had a nice time to yourself. And I hope to get there someday. I just dont know when that will be. I am just scared that I might start to hate him for all this pain he has caused me. Its just a vicious circle.


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## Xusan

Prelude, it is a terrible cycle. It's a really hard cycle to stop, too. I'm still working on it, and it's been almost 2 years!! The wonderful part is that you have all the control you need, despite thinking and feeling like you're powerless. Just remember to always be true to yourself. Act according to your deepest values, and take strength from knowing that you are doing this. Best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

So, it appears my DH is trying to work on us. In one of my emails I wrote that I hoped he would spend more time with us instead of his usual routine of playing video games, watching YouTube, or sleeping. Since he came home, he's been coming to bed with us. We co-sleep, and I usually put the baby to bed on my own. I'm fine with this. Then I go out to the livingroom to hang out with my DH. On good days, we watch something together, share some popcorn and snuggle. On bad days, he ignores me, plays video games or watches things I find offensive, or just don't care for. When my confidence was low, I would sit there and endure the punishment. I would be a victim. It never occured to me that I could go off and read a magazine or surf the Net or whatever. Later, I did start doing those things, though still very sensitive to his behavior.

Anyhow, now he's coming to bed with us while I'm trying to get the baby to sleep. This is seriously extending the time it takes her to sleep because she's so excited Daddy is there and equates his presense to play time. Plus, he's usually watching something on his laptop, which is super distracting. He commented the other night that it takes much longer (like 2 hours!!) when he's in here. I agreed. I was hesistant to say so, because I didn't want to discourage his efforts. He said, "But you get mad when I'm not in here." I said that wasn't my issue. I never finished explaining what my issue was. Our daughter started talking to him about something and the moment was lost. My issue, which I wish I had clarified, was that he often stayed up till 4, 5 or even 6AM and didn't wake till past noon, unless I woke him sooner for a meal. In the meantime, had to keep the baby, her young cousins, he parrot, birds and cats quiet or else there was Hell to pay.

I think he actually is trying. We've had a couple, small arguments recently, where I just spoke my mind. This would normally have thrown him into his cold, withdrawn behavior, or evoked an episode of yelling. He did become superior, but his polite, day to day behavior hasn't stopped. This morning, he tentatively put his arm around me. I allowed myself to enjoy that. I need to remember not to be afraid of his reactions. I'm really not, anymore. It's odd to write that and to say it and to actually feel it. I've been scared for so long. I think that facing my worst possible scenario, him leaving, and making it through just fine, even if it had been a permanent exit, made all the difference. Knowing I was going to be fine if he left made all the difference.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

How old is your baby?


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## Xusan

She's 21 months old, almost 2. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

If he's now willing to spend time with you, maybe this would be a good time to start switching your daughter over to her own bed. We had the rails off our daughter's bed by the time she was 3, I think. But you have to put some extra effort into giving your husband some extra romance time once a baby comes; men get awfully jealous when the baby comes, and if the baby is sleeping with you, you have essentially cut off the time you two had before the baby came. And that's what's more important to the men, usually. Women get all absorbed in the baby, but the men feel like they're losing out, cos not only are they not getting absorbed in the baby, but the time they used to spend with their wives in a man/woman kind of way has been replaced. Worth thinking about...


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## Xusan

We're working on moving her to her bed, now. She has a toddler mattress in our room, inside a tepee where she's started napping. Ive made an extra effort to preserve our intimate time together. Traditional roles happen to be switched in our relationship. My libido has always been stronger, ever since the beginning. So, this is actually more important to me than it is to him. It's much more challenging to find the time to be intimate, but we're creative!


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## PreludeCkN

Xusan said:


> So, it appears my DH is trying to work on us........ Then I go out to the livingroom to hang out with my DH. On good days, we watch something together, share some popcorn and snuggle. On bad days, he ignores me, plays video games or watches things I find offensive, or just don't care for. When my confidence was low, I would sit there and endure the punishment. I would be a victim. It never occured to me that I could go off and read a magazine or surf the Net or whatever. Later, I did start doing those things, though still very sensitive to his behavior.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Sounds like my marriage, most of the time, I thought that this is how things were. Eventually I did start to go off and do my own thing but it did bother me that we had to do our own thing. But I am glad that your DH is attempting to work things out with you after 2 years. I that mine is also willing to do so, I'll wait as long as it takes, I don't want to give up on him even if he gave up on us.


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## Xusan

Prelude, I don't know much about your background. I don't know if abuse is an issue for you guys, as it is for me and my DH. If it's not...maybe even if it is, I HIGHLY reccomend The Five Love Languages, by Gary Chapman and The Love Dare. You might also want to watch Fireproof. It goes with The Love Dare. The two books will, at least, make you feel more hopeful and less helpless. They will give you concrete things to do, and will also give you some insight into yourself and your husband. Check them out and let me know what you think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PreludeCkN

It's ironic because I saw fireproof one week before we separated. My sister made me watch it (without any knowledge of our relationship status) and said watch it! it can save your marriage. So I did and I could relate to their situation, but we didnt fight as much. But the feelings were there. 

No we didn't have a violent relationship but it was gloomy at times. We never yelled at each other or he called me names. That was me. I notice that he became distant when I would ask him for a kiss and he would deny me, or I'd ask for a make out session and he said he was tired, even a hug was to much to ask. I wanted more intimacy and he didn't care for it much. 

Also, I was wondering about The Love Dare, can it work when my husband does not want to try to fix things? He doesn't seem to want talk to me much or even see me I guess.


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## turnera

There's another thing you can do, prelude, that is akin to the Love Dare. That's the program over at marriagebuilders.com. In it, you learn how you Love Bust your husband, hopefully by him filling out the LB questionnaire. Then you work your butt off to STOP all LBs that you do that aggravate him. That smooths out the waters.

Then, once you've changed your bad habits to stop doing what LBs him, you ask him to fill out the Emotional Needs questionnaire (or you fill it out for him); once you know his top 5 ENs, you make sure that YOU are the one person meeting all those needs. 

This doesn't require him reciprocating, if he's not in the mood to. But if you keep this up, you should see a difference in his attitude toward you.


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## PreludeCkN

thanks for the advice I am going to try this, but I find it hard to do by myself when he doesn't want to even try to work things out.


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## turnera

Believe me, my DH was worse. I'd ask him to pick up a piece of paper he left on the counter, and he'd just stare at me and walk away. But I did the MB plan, and it DID change him. He went from an angry, rude person to one who would hug again, talk, even help.


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## PreludeCkN

where can i find this questionaire?


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## turnera

Just go to marriagebuilders.com and look up Love Busters questionnaire.


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## PreludeCkN

Thanks I will do that right now =)


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## PreludeCkN

turnera said:


> Just go to marriagebuilders.com and look up Love Busters questionnaire.


So I went there to take the questionaire and this is what it said:

If either you or your spouse is in the State of Withdrawal, you have created emotional defenses and will not let the other spouse meet your emotional needs. It's only when you overcome Love Busters that the emotional barrier is removed, and you allow each other to meet your emotional needs. So if either of you are in the state of Withdrawal, the Love Busters should be eliminated before trying to meet that spouse's emotional needs. 


AND

When a couple is in the state of Withdrawal, the marriage seems hopeless. There is no willingness to be thoughtful or to meet each other's emotional needs, and no willingness to even talk about the problems. When both spouses are in the state of Withdrawal, at that point in time, it really is hopeless, because neither are at all interested in saving the marriage. 


My husband is in state of withdrawal, he said he gave up on us that he doesnt care to try, he doesnt want to try.


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## Xusan

The good news is, you are NOT in a state of withdrawal. You can start overcoming Love Busters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Exactly. What that means is, like I said, YOU have to work super super hard to eliminate YOUR Love Busters, that you do to him. If you spend a few months no longer LBing him, he will start to feel safer with you. Do you understand the concept of LBs?

Example of my husband's: he uses Qtips every single day. Unfortunately, once he uses them, he just drops them wherever he happens to be - kitchen counter, bed, bedstand, bathroom sink, NEAR the trash can (he never picks them up if he misses the can)...can you imagine how upset I get every single day just because he knows those Qtips upset me, yet he makes no attempt to do the simple decent thing to throw them away? Every day, I lose more love for him - not so much because he leaves them everywhere, but because he KNOWS it upsets me, and doesn't care enough about MY feelings to stop his LB behavior.

What is there about YOU that your husband feels the same way about? That's why you need HIM to fill it out - so you know what YOU do that aggravates him, so you can STOP it.


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## PreludeCkN

I am willing to do whatever it takes to get him back. I did look over the questionaire and I am going to do it. But how can I get my husband to do it when he doesnt it want to see me? He doesn't want to attempt to save our marriage at all.


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## turnera

You can tell him that you want to know what you did wrong.

He shouldn't mind getting a chance to rag on you.


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## PreludeCkN

turnera said:


> You can tell him that you want to know what you did wrong.
> 
> He shouldn't mind getting a chance to rag on you.


Well I know what happen because I was the cause. I didn't trust him, I was always jealous and I punished him for years for cheating on me before we got married. He got tired of it and wanted out. I don't blame him and I understand his resentment towards me. He said he has fallen out of love with me and I know I deserve it. But I know that we had more good times than we did bad times. But it's like they say, one negative things out weights 10 positive things. So here we are, H doesn't want to try and I am willing to do anything it takes to get him back. Yea I know its my fault for acting this way and I have apologize to him but he just doesn't care anymore.


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## turnera

Well, you can either try harder to get him to fill it out, or just give up and say he doesn't care...and divorce.


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## Xusan

DH has been trying his heart out. He's addressed everything I expressed in my emails through loving actions. He is attentive, polite, affectionate, sweet, thoughful, emotionally available and vulnerable. I hope he can continue to do this under stress. I'm so glad I finally told him how I felt. His initial reaction was horendous, something I never thought we could survive. I'm so glad I was able to push through the pain and fear. I'm so glad that I can now express my thoughts and feelings without emotionally cringing. (OK, I'm still working on this, but I'm WAY better.). This feels like a real change, not just a honeymoon period or the eye in the storm. Please, please let us both grow from this and come out better spouses for each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

{{{Xusan}}}

I am SO happy you chose the high road in this.


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## whiteflag

I'm sure he is still in love with you. he's just hurt and humiliated right now. I'd suggest giving him some time, space and your word to stop snapping at him like he's a child and calmly communicate with him as an adult and he'll be ok.

Can I get any of you all to share your thoughts with me on my thread Mom#1, Wife #2?


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## Xusan

My DH continues to be wonderful. It's times like these when I feel so scared that something will happen to turn him angry and cold again. I don't understand how he can be so loving, yet say he's not in love with me anymore, that I'm fooling myself if I think he is. I don't understand. Right now, it feels like he's in love with me. He's affectionate, attentive, gentle and just fun to be around. 

We've even been in some volatile situations that would have normally been sure to push his buttons. He's been kinder to everyone, overall -- even waitstaff and cashiers, once his mortal enemies! We've spent a couple evenings with my mother, who we hadn't spoken to in almost 2 years. And... he was great! I don't understand how he can love me, but not be in love with me, yet act like he's in love with me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I'm guessing but I think that, once he tells you 'the dreaded news' a huge weight of espectations is lifted off his shoulders. We all carry around a huge load of what we should do, have to do, are expected to do, and marriage makes it even more complicated. Now that he doesn't HAVE to stay with you, he can do whatever he wants, with no expectations. Just my guess.


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## Oranges30

My husband says he has no passion for me anymore. He's fallen out of love with me and feels nothing. We have a 2yr old and a baby on it's way. He says he wants to get the feelings back and is willing to go counselling. We don't argue that much, i thought we had a good marriage of 6 years now and he says it started two months ago when he got obsessed with a colleague at work. 

When his obsession got bad he told me hoping it would stop him thinking about her. He says he doesn't love her, has transferred job locations and has said he can't be friends with her (though does wishes he could be).

I don't know how to cope with the daily rejection of knowing that he feels nothing for me. I desperately want to work this out and from his actions and suggestions it seems he wants to get us back, but I'm so scared it won't work, as is he.

It's a horrible place to be in and I don't know what to do. We are going to start counselling but how do I get through the days until the first appointment and the following appointments, and is there anything that we could be doing in the mean time?

We have been going on weekly dates to try and do new things together, but I think once the 'activity' is done it reverts back to him feeling nothing.

Please someone say something???


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## turnera

Oranges, welcome. There is hope. Why don't you start your own thread so you can get targeted advice?

In case I don't see your new thread, go get the book His Needs Her Needs, and both of you sit down and read it together. A great place to start.


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## Xusan

Been going great. We were being kind to each other, affectionate, respectful. We were a team again. Problems, even huge problems, were tiny because we were ok. Yes, there were bumps and regression, but they were short lived. Today, I feel things slipping back.

I didn't get things together on time this morning and never got him his coffee. Sounds totally absurd as I write this, but he counts on me in the morning. If I told him I wasn't going to do this stuff, it would be different. But, I told him I'd help him, and I didn't come through. I've done this once before. I apologized. We talked. I started getting up earlier. Yesterday, I was setting up my classroom all day. I was soooo tired when I got home. He made dinner. I put our daughter to sleep early. I stayed up late reading.

He kissed me this morning, as he's been doing, lately, and told me he found a shirt that didn't need any ironing. I dozed off, secure that I had enough time to make him a lunch and some coffee. Turns out the shirt didn't work out and he needed one touched up. I didn't have time to get everything done. The coffee never got put together. I know I'm not at fault. It doesn't matter. Things didn't go well, and I could have dine things to make them run smoother, like make the lunch the night before or program the coffee maker. It doesn't matter. He's upset with me. Curt. Distant. I pray that his heart opens again and he accepts my apology. I'm going to bring him a Starbucks coffee and meet him for lunch. I hope he's nice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Xusan, come on! You are his everything, and when you fall flat he has the right to be mad at you and punish you by being curt and distant?

Seriously?

It sounds to me like the only reason you've been getting along is that you took back up your mantle of Superwoman so he can skate and rule his roost and not have to share the load. 

Have some more self respect than that.


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## Xusan

Man, it does sound like that, but he does his share of things, traditional male chores like yard work and even nontraditional stuff like making the occasional meal and tidying up after meals, etc. Point taken on the punishing me thing, though. That's definitely not ok. He has such a hard time saying, "It's ok. Don't worry.". How healing would it be to hear that every so often.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marilee

Xusan, I've read your whole thread. It was painful to read. Your husband sounds exactly, exactly, EXACTLY like my dad. Word for word. My mom sounds exactly, exactly, EXACTLY like you. Trying so hard, dealing with his temper tantrums and sulking. For YEARS. 

We watched him withhold affection and love whenever someone put the remote in the wrong place. We knew if we said the wrong thing at the wrong time he would be angry for days. He wasn't physically abusive, but it was still emotionally warping. We ALL walked on eggshells, the entire time we were growing up.

This is awful to say, but when my dad died of a stroke at 54, it was a relief to every single one of us. A RELIEF. How awful is that? I used to ask my mom all the time, whenever my dad would storm out of the house after she'd done something "wrong" - "why don't you just divorce him?" We all used to ask her that. And even though she was "the good parent" I'm afraid that we didn't respect her very much for that. In fact, we all kind of resented the way she constantly capitulated to him and allowed him to be this constant, soul-sucking, dark shadow in our lives.

It was DAMAGING for us to see Xusan. I have four sisters, and we have all had an incredibly difficult time learning how to have healthy relationships with men, because of the horrible example our parents modeled for us. We never learned to respect ourselves. Two of us have battled eating disorders, two are divorced, one bounces from unhappy relationship to unhappy relationship. 

I know you want more for your daughter than that. 

Sit back, and think about if this is what you really want.

A normal marriage is not like this. I've had issues with my husband, but nothing like this. You should not have to defend every move you make. People should be able to blow off the little stuff, to not let every single tiny thing that happens become a Mt. Everest in their relationship. Life with a man like this sounds like a living nightmare.

If you don't want more for YOU, want it for your daughter.


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## turnera

Amen.


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## Xusan

marilee,

I've read your post over and over. I don't know what to say. I'm so sad and worried about this beautiful, happy little girl we have.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I agree. And you should also, during more normal times, explain WHY you are doing it. They often won't understand, will just blame you for being a witch, and never take the onus upon themselves. He needs to HEAR from you that what he is doing is wrong.

I wanted to add that I, too, have a husband like yours. We are NOT allowed to criticize him. Once, he was using the wrong screwdriver and I just said "Do you want the other one?" and he just _screamed _at me "*Don't question me*!" As long as we don't question him, he's ok; but he simply cannot abide us not thinking he's perfect. And it's MY fault for kissing up to him every time it happened. And, like marilee - and I can't believe I'm admitting this as I am ashamed of myself - I often wish that something would just happen to him. He would die in a car crash. His plane would go down. Just so that I wouldn't have to do the hard work that is MY responsibility - standing up to him.

Don't make that your legacy, too.


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## Xusan

*breeze,

I hear you. *Indifference. *I know there's some solace there. *It's a lot harder to practice than it is to want to practice. But, I know I need to stop chasing and rewarding terrible behavior. *It's also tough not to regress. *New habits and patterns are sooooo hard to establish.*

tunera,
Wrong screwdriver...so very familiar. *The other day, I was pulling out a splinter from his finger at "the wrong angle". I pulled it out as he was finishing his criticism.  He laughed at himself and saw it was silly, but similar scenarios have resulted in lectures, annoyance and anger -- choosing the wrong elevator floor and me mentioning the restaurant may be (I knew it was) on a different floor. Makes you want to roll your eyes. *Gah! *Yet, I know I've chosen this path and continue to choose it... *
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Xusan

I have also often fantasized about how much easier life would be if he just had a freak, fatal accident. I'm also deeply ashamed of this, but can't help feeling that life would indeed be easier, because we could just mourn him, and work through the pain of his passing, rather than being crushed on a daily basis by his distance or cruelty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

My therapist told me it's extremely common for people to fantasize that way.


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## loveisforever

What is your story now? Everything is OK?


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