# Getting ready to drop the news



## Cromer

I've done a lot of reading in the forums over the past few months on the recommendation of a friend. It is so helpful to read about others' experiences, even though so much of it is so sad and/or tragic. I guess I'm posting because I'm having second thoughts? I was so sure.

My wife and I are in our early 50's and married for 30 years. I have been retired for a couple of years and she's been a SAHM for most of our marriage. Our youngest is leaving for college soon and for the first time in a very long time, we will be home by ourselves. We are financially secure and in good health and good shape. We still enjoy each other's company and do everything together. We get along great and have a lot of the same interests. Except for sex. We haven't had sex in over ten years and for her, it's no big deal. For me it's Hell. 

I don't need any advice about how to "rekindle" anything. We've been down that road many, many times in many different ways, to include doctors and counseling. The fact remains that we have a sexless marriage and I have long since given up on trying to change it. I haven't brought up the topic in years. I'm sure she thinks the topic of sex has "gone away." The fact is that I have been planning to get out for a long time. We'd be so much better as best friends than husband and wife. I have remained faithful.

In her mind, our marriage is great. We do everything together, have "couple friends", do volunteer work, active in church, etc. Her family is my family. She has been planning our post-kids life for a while now. She wants to do some traveling and some home renovations. 

For me, I have been carefully planning for divorce for the past year and she has no idea. Not in the slightest. I feel horrible about not telling her yet. I admit that I am and scared to lose so much of this life we've built. But I absolutely refuse to spend the rest of my life without physical intimacy in a relationship. I don't care how much it costs (and it will cost me big), I just to be with someone who doesn't expect me to keep an important part of who I am dead and buried. I'd rather just be alone.

I don't hate my wife, but I harbor a lot of resentment. I can't say that I love her as a wife anymore; years of rejection saw to that. But, I have a hard time imagining a life without her. We've been together our entire adult lives. Everyone sees us as the perfect marriage.

Everything is ready to go, to include all of the planning for the anticipated split in assets. I am probably a month or so away from breaking the news and but I don't know how yet. This is going to be rough on so many levels for us and our families, but I'm not going to live this lie of a perfect marriage any longer. I don't want to see my wife hurt but there is no way around it. I am determined to do this but I admit that I am struggling.


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## Yeswecan

For better or worse.....



> I don't want to see my wife hurt


What do you think will happen?


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## farsidejunky

Did you ever tell her that a sexless marriage would lead to divorce?

Not hinting, not beating around the bush, not alluding to...but in a direct, blunt fashion?


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## john117

They rarely believe it, and at the end of the day coerced intimacy under threat of divorce is pointless.


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## Cromer

farsidejunky said:


> Did you ever tell her that a sexless marriage would lead to divorce?
> 
> Not hinting, not beating around the bush, not alluding to...but in a direct, blunt fashion?


That is how I finally got her to agree to counseling years ago (several times), but her heart just wasn't in it. I've given up.


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## Yeswecan

john117 said:


> They rarely believe it, and at the end of the day coerced intimacy under threat of divorce is pointless.


I concur. However, this poor woman is about to get hit by a oncoming freight train that is steaming at her back. OP appears to be basking in the glow of planning without his W knowledge.


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## Cromer

john117 said:


> They rarely believe it, and at the end of the day coerced intimacy under threat of divorce is pointless.


I agree, tried that.


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## farsidejunky

This may be true in 99 of 100 cases, or perhaps 999 of 1,000.

However, even if it is 1 of 10,000, the right thing to do is communicate clearly the consequences, ensuring it is clearly understood by the other spouse. 

You miss 100% of the shots you do not take.



john117 said:


> They rarely believe it, and at the end of the day coerced intimacy under threat of divorce is pointless.


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## Herschel

If anyone thinks that living in a sexless marriage would be ok, and the marriage should sustain, is a fool. You've already waited too long. 10 years? Are you kidding me? Would you want your kids to live like that?

Hand her the papers, tell her you love her, but you can't be with her anymore. Tell her that intimacy with your spouse is the most important thing in a marriage (which it is, not just sex, but intimacy). The fact it doesn't bother her that you have done without this for 10 years shows how little she really cares about your needs. Get on with you life man.


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## Cromer

Yeswecan said:


> For better or worse.....
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think will happen?


Yes, I am the bad guy in all of this.


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## john117

Yeswecan said:


> I concur. However, this poor woman is about to get hit by a oncoming freight train that is steaming at her back. OP appears to be basking in the glow of planning without his W knowledge.


Unless OP has a gold star on Hollywood Boulevard in recognition of his superb acting skills, she knows.


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## Yeswecan

Herschel said:


> I
> 
> Tell her that intimacy with your spouse is the most important thing in a marriage (which it is, not just sex, but intimacy).


Sex is part of a marriage and not always the most important. Each has their own "important" thing in a marriage. OP is apparently sex. His W not so much.


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## jlg07

Cromer said:


> That is how I finally got her to agree to counseling years ago (several times), but her heart just wasn't in it. I've given up.


I really don't think you should just drop a bomb on her. You need to start discussing the sex aspect again, esp. since you say she's "probably forgotten" about it. You really need to be clear to her that your empty nest life isn't going to be what she thinks if your sex life doesn't improve. I know you said you've done all this before, but she OBVIOUSLY doesn't realize the extent of the issue now that you are very resentful and are ready to through out an otherwise good relationship (from what you've said).

You REALLY need to sit down and discuss how far this has gone in your thoughts/emotions. Just be honest --you don't have to tell her about the impending ACTUALITY of the divorce yet, but you DO need to tell her that you have REALLY been thinking along those lines due to this.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

My story is pretty much identical to yours (not totally sexless, but there is a HUGE disconnect there).

Have you considered the whole picture rather than looking at the sexual dissatisfaction in isolation? 

Even if you set aside the morality of abandoning your vows and look at this in purely selfish terms, do you really think that, at this stage in life, you're going to find a better overall situation? Really, how likely do you think it may be that you'll find a good person who you care for, a loving partner, _and _great sex? 

Just look at the sex thing in isolation for a minute. Most women have less drive than men to begin with. Add to that your age--you're going to be looking at a small group to begin with (not married), and they will largely be menopausal, likely complicating an already difficult sexual situation even further. How likely are you to find a great sexual partner at this stage? This is going to be exceedingly rare. And, assuming you actually find such a gem, what are the odds she'll be up to snuff in all the other areas you already have today?

Tread carefully, friend. Remember the story about the dog with the bone looking at his reflection in the lake.


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## farsidejunky

If this is as you say, then you communicated to her the consequences of a sexless marriage.

That is all one can do. She has to choose to overcome it from her end.

What is your plan?



Cromer said:


> That is how I finally got her to agree to counseling years ago (several times), but her heart just wasn't in it. I've given up.


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## Cromer

Yeswecan said:


> I concur. However, this poor woman is about to get hit by a oncoming freight train that is steaming at her back. OP appears to be basking in the glow of planning without his W knowledge.


I'm not basking in anything.


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## Yeswecan

john117 said:


> They rarely believe it, and at the end of the day coerced intimacy under threat of divorce is pointless.


Golden Globe winner.


> *For me, I have been carefully planning for divorce for the past year and she has no idea. *


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## Yeswecan

Cromer said:


> I'm not basking in anything.


Sorry sir, your post comes off as appearing so to me.


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## john117

farsidejunky said:


> This may be true in 99 of 100 cases, or perhaps 999 of 1,000.
> 
> However, even if it is 1 of 10,000, the right thing to do is communicate clearly the consequences, ensuring it is clearly understood by the other spouse.
> 
> You miss 100% of the shots you do not take.


I'm facing the same at the end of the month. Being a nice person 😎 I'm offering three options:

- Counseling for both and individuals with defined criteria - minimum six months to a year
- Mediation divorce (low cost no fights)
- Traditional (ugly) divorce

Each has a cost and probability of acceptance. We'll see what happens. 

Perhaps OP can get estimates of the post divorce numbers and present in a succinct way - current assets, divided assets, cost, cost of counseling, objectives. Give it a reasonable amount of time to sink in and be done.


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## Cromer

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> My story is pretty much identical to yours (not totally sexless, but there is a HUGE disconnect there).
> 
> Have you considered the whole picture rather than looking at the sexual dissatisfaction in isolation?
> 
> Even if you set aside the morality of abandoning your vows and look at this in purely selfish terms, do you really think that, at this stage in life, you're going to find a better overall situation? Really, how likely do you think it may be that you'll find a good person who you care for, a loving partner, _and _great sex?
> 
> Just look at the sex thing in isolation for a minute. Most women have less drive than men to begin with. Add to that your age--you're going to be looking at a small group to begin with (not married), and they will largely be menopausal, likely complicating an already difficult sexual situation even further. How likely are you to find a great sexual partner at this stage? This is going to be exceedingly rare. And, assuming you actually find such a gem, what are the odds she'll be up to snuff in all the other areas you already have today?
> 
> Tread carefully, friend. Remember the story about the dog with the bone looking at his reflection in the lake.


If I gave the impression that I want to hit the dating scene that's not the case. I'm finding it harder and harder to live in a situation that I have come to resent so much. I mentioned that I'd rather be alone, at least that's how I've come to feel about it.


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## Cooper

Cromer said:


> Yes, I am the bad guy in all of this.



Maybe not. She could be doing exactly the same as you, role playing the happily married couple when in fact she is just as unhappy as you. She may may be thrilled to get divorced.


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## Marc878

There is s time to stop beating a dead horse. All you end up doing is getting blood and guts on you.

Set aside some time and tell her you have decided to divorce her and move on.

Dont best around the bush, try and manipulate or make empty promises, etc.

She'll be shocked because even though she knew it was a problem you probably taught her through your lack of actions to ignore you.

I wouldn't have her served in public unless I had to


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## Lostinthought61

my guess is that she will not be all that surprised if your still in a sexless marriage and you have approached the topic several times.....and you may want to start by reminding her of that


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## bikermehound

Been going thru the same thing on what to do /talking about going to counseling but I have mentioned I am not living rest of my life like this what can a guy do let me now how u make out we r both about the same age u r thanks

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## Herschel

Yeswecan said:


> Sex is part of a marriage and not always the most important. Each has their own "important" thing in a marriage. OP is apparently sex. His W not so much.


I didn't say sex, I said intimacy. There are many different levels of intimacy and if you don't have it, then why are you married? You are roommates. And one roommate doesn't even care that the other roommate needs to get laid!


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## 2&out

Don't beat yourself up too much. Unless she's as dumb as a post - which I am guessing not - she won't be surprised and is probably expecting it. There is a solid chance she's done some preparing herself so be careful. Don't let her provoke you into doing something stupid / irrational in the heat of a "moment". Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. You ready for abuse accusations / charges ? It's an all to common ploy to tip the scales of settlement. Never say never... 

Best of luck. Have an independent 3rd party present. Do it calmly, don't answer any questions, and don't look back.


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## Yeswecan

Herschel said:


> I didn't say sex, I said intimacy. There are many different levels of intimacy and if you don't have it, then why are you married? You are roommates. And one roommate doesn't even care that the other roommate needs to get laid!


Some don't need intimacy either. Some do not mind roommate living. These types do not show up here on TAM. Herschel, every marriage has a different dynamic that works for them. Some don't. It is not always cookie cutter.


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## Yeswecan

Cromer said:


> If I gave the impression that I want to hit the dating scene that's not the case. I'm finding it harder and harder to live in a situation that I have come to resent so much. I mentioned that* I'd rather be alone*, at least that's how I've come to feel about it.


You are alone now even in the same room as your W. What will be different when separated?


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## Bananapeel

Personally, I'd recommend that you talk with her first and tell her you plan to file for D and ask her how she wants to proceed. See if she wants to go through lawyers or a DIY kit, and then try to follow her wishes as long as she's being reasonable. If not having sex is a deal breaker for you, then it's a deal breaker. Just be upfront about it and as civil as you can while working through your options. If you just drop it on her without a discussion then it is unlikely that you'll remain as friends.


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## wilson

Here's a good way to broach the subject in a softer way. Try to increase the amount of cuddling you do, but don't make it about sex. Specifically, make sure you cuddle some when you go to bed and in the morning. But to repeat, don't make it about sex. Just enjoy the physical contact. You'll have to put aside your feelings of frustration and not allow yourself to get turned on. What you want to see is how she feels about non-sexual contact with you. That will give you direction on how to proceed.

If she seems to enjoy the cuddling, it will give you a path forward towards working things out. If you can get back to cuddling on a regular basis, it makes it much easier to have that lead into sex more often. However, you can't make the cuddling be about sex. You really have to have the mindset of enjoying cuddling and if it leads to sex, great. If you make cuddling about sex, she'll shut down.

If she rejects even the cuddling, this will give you a good opening to start talking about your future. If she can't even tolerate non-sexual contact with you, that's a clear sign that you're not right for each other. Sex is sex and there's lots of complicated reasons why that might happen, but there should always be some sort of physical contact in a marriage. If she doesn't even want to feel you at all, that will give you both a clear perspective on the state of the marriage.

And just to emphasize one more time, don't make the cuddling into something erotic or it won't work. Make the cuddling much more like a platonic hug than an erotic massage if you want to try this.

One way to start this is to ask her to lie next to you as you go to bed because your day was stressful and it will help you relax. Then the next night say it helped you sleep much better and ask her to do it again. It should hopefully became a more normal part of you going to bed.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

wilson said:


> Here's a good way to broach the subject in a softer way. Try to increase the amount of cuddling you do, but don't make it about sex. Specifically, make sure you cuddle some when you go to bed and in the morning. But to repeat, don't make it about sex. Just enjoy the physical contact. You'll have to put aside your feelings of frustration and not allow yourself to get turned on. What you want to see is how she feels about non-sexual contact with you. That will give you direction on how to proceed.
> 
> If she seems to enjoy the cuddling, it will give you a path forward towards working things out. If you can get back to cuddling on a regular basis, it makes it much easier to have that lead into sex more often. However, you can't make the cuddling be about sex. You really have to have the mindset of enjoying cuddling and if it leads to sex, great. If you make cuddling about sex, she'll shut down.
> 
> If she rejects even the cuddling, this will give you a good opening to start talking about your future. If she can't even tolerate non-sexual contact with you, that's a clear sign that you're not right for each other. Sex is sex and there's lots of complicated reasons why that might happen, but there should always be some sort of physical contact in a marriage. If she doesn't even want to feel you at all, that will give you both a clear perspective on the state of the marriage.
> 
> And just to emphasize one more time, don't make the cuddling into something erotic or it won't work. Make the cuddling much more like a platonic hug than an erotic massage if you want to try this.
> 
> One way to start this is to ask her to lie next to you as you go to bed because your day was stressful and it will help you relax. Then the next night say it helped you sleep much better and ask her to do it again. It should hopefully became a more normal part of you going to bed.


To the OP,
I have done the above with limited success. 

My wife loves cuddling. Luckily, I love snuggling as well, for its own sake, with no intent to progress to sex.

This really helps with the "togetherness" and bonding. It helps me stay connected even without the sex and it helps keep her bonded in a way that makes sex more likely when she's feeling up to it. There are often times when she wants to cuddle, just for her comfort and pleasure and I don't really care so it does seem like I often being used (what else is new, eh?). It's no panacea, but it's clear that we're both better off with it than without it. 

Baby steps. 

But as Wilson notes, it's only going to help if she's receptive and you're willing to do so without expectations.


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## Satya

Do you feel that compared to you, her needs are being amply met? If so, there's been an imbalance in your relationship for some time and she's probably very used to it.

FWIW, I don't think of you as the bad guy. It sounds like you've tried to find a resolution. I wouldn't blindside her, though. Tell her to her face precisely what you're going to do. She has to prepare as well. I think that she is likely happy where she is, without the sex. If that's not your idea of marriage, then you must do what you think is best. 

I think everyone deserves to have and expect regular, meaningful sex when married. Sex IMO is the glue that bonds us together in a strong, healthy way. My husband is 52 and I'm 36. We both came from near sexless first marriages. The sex is infinitely more meaningful with someone who adores you and wants to make you feel as fulfilled as you want to fulfill your partner.

The last thing I think you'd want is pity or appeasement sex. But be prepared for the possibility of the offering when you mention divorce.


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## Elizabeth001

Yeswecan said:


> Sorry sir, your post comes off as appearing so to me.




It comes across as relief to me. After a long time of debating it, he has made a decision. That's a damn good feeling. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400

Cromer said:


> That is how I finally got her to agree to counseling years ago (several times), but her heart just wasn't in it. I've given up.


That's how you do it...

You start by saying "remember when I told you that our sexless marriage could lead to divorce?"


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## Yeswecan

Elizabeth001 said:


> It comes across as relief to me. After a long time of debating it, he has made a decision. That's a damn good feeling.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





> For me, I have been carefully planning for divorce for the past year and she has no idea.


Yep, sense of relief as the W is completely blindsided in the dark. Sure, OP talked about D but decided acting in secret was the best course. Really? The W did not perform in the bedroom. Does the W deserve this type of presentation for D?

The OP is not some sort of victim here. 10 years the OP waited.


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## Elizabeth001

Yeswecan said:


> Yep, sense of relief as the W is completely blindsided in the dark. Sure, OP talked about D but decided acting in secret was the best course. Really? The W did not perform in the bedroom. Does the W deserve this type of presentation for D?
> 
> The OP is not some sort of victim here. 10 years the OP waited.




It took me 10 years to do it but he knew it was coming and I doubt seriously that she has no clue. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cromer

Satya said:


> Do you feel that compared to you, her needs are being amply met? If so, there's been an imbalance in your relationship for some time and she's probably very used to it.
> 
> FWIW, I don't think of you as the bad guy. It sounds like you've tried to find a resolution. I wouldn't blindside her, though. Tell her to her face precisely what you're going to do. She has to prepare as well. I think that she is likely happy where she is, without the sex. If that's not your idea of marriage, then you must do what you think is best.
> 
> I think everyone deserves to have and expect regular, meaningful sex when married. Sex IMO is the glue that bonds us together in a strong, healthy way. My husband is 52 and I'm 36. We both came from near sexless first marriages. The sex is infinitely more meaningful with someone who adores you and wants to make you feel as fulfilled as you want to fulfill your partner.
> 
> The last thing I think you'd want is pity or appeasement sex. But be prepared for the possibility of the offering when you mention divorce.


It's hard to explain everything in a forum. This situation has a long history of trying to address it many different ways. She hated the idea of counseling because she didn't want to discuss our sex life with a stranger (understandable). But, she went because I made it clear that our marriage was at risk. We've had three counseling efforts and I could write for hours about what I have done trying to find and work a solution. I finally gave up. She remains indifferent about it. Between work and other issues I just didn't want to deal with it anymore. I retired early hoping to make a fresh go of things, but it's clear she's not interested. She will cuddle all day. When I first retired we'd spend all day in bed watching movies together. She's happy with that. I grew to hate it.

I know that I have enabled this situation badly by putting her first all of the time and finally accepting the status quo for the kids' sake. I grew up in a broken home with an absent father and I was not going to let that be my family. My wife knows that I wouldn't go anywhere. Divorce is something her family simply doesn't do, but I don't see her ever changing. So, my options:

1. Stay and accept it.
2. Leave.

I've tried Option 1, really tried. Recently I've come to a point where I don't even want her touching me anymore. I know that sounds awful but it's how I've come to feel. I can tell she's noticed but she's not said anything to me. A friend of hers asked me if I was happy being retired since I was such a high energy person. I'm sure that came from my wife talking about me changing over these past months. For her, if you ignore a problem it isn't a problem. For the first time in all these years, I am about to put something that I want first.

I don't want coerced intimacy as mentioned earlier. I don't want sympathy intimacy. Yes, I can stay and live half a life. But it's getting where I don't want to be around her. She is a good person and a great mother. She doesn't deserve the brooding and resentful husband I'm becoming.

I know that I owe it to her to let her know sooner rather than later. I'm guessing that her initial reaction will be "here we go again", but this time is different. I actually have a plan in place. It will certainly be a wake-up call.


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## farsidejunky

Yeswecan said:


> Yep, sense of relief as the W is completely blindsided in the dark. Sure, OP talked about D but decided acting in secret was the best course. Really? The W did not perform in the bedroom. Does the W deserve this type of presentation for D?
> 
> The OP is not some sort of victim here. 10 years the OP waited.


Speaking as a Moderator:

In this post, you are minimizing her role to prove a point.

Your post on page one regarding "basking in the glow" is projecting intentions upon the OP that have been in no way indicated in his posts.

I concur that there is some accountability for the OP, but you are literally injecting things into this that have no indication of existence, and doing so in a poor manner.

Please refrain from doing so.


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## Cynthia

If she has no clue, sex isn't the only issue in the marriage. He told her that no sex = divorce. They went to counseling and nothing changed. She went to the doctor and nothing was found. She is refusing to meet his need, because she doesn't see it as important to her life. She vowed to "have and to hold," but is refusing to have sex with her husband, which is what "to have and to hold" means. 

He hasn't been mistreating her.

He has been planning a divorce and to do it the easiest way possible without hurting her any more than he has to. He has taken her into consideration. He's not doing this to hurt her. He's doing it to relieve himself of the hurt she is causing him and to do it as carefully as possible. He's tried other methods for relieving that hurt, but ultimately that is in her hands and she has refused despite his clear communication that it is a deal breaker.

My recommendation is to get it all prepared, then once you've signed the papers and the divorce is filed to sit down and let her know that now is the time. You have discussed this with her before and now it is time to take the step to dissolve the marriage and move on with your lives separately. She has clearly shown that she is not interested in resolving this issue in the marriage. She has had ample time. If she suddenly gets desperate, I would not believe her if she seemed to change.

It would be good to be clear with your kids, as awkward as it will be. Simply tell them that she has refused to have sex with you for over ten years, you told her you would divorce her if that wasn't resolved, and in all these years she has not corrected the problem. They can make up their own minds how they feel about that, but as young people I have a feeling they will understand.


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## SunCMars

wilson said:


> Here's a good way to broach the subject in a softer way. Try to increase the amount of cuddling you do, but don't make it about sex. Specifically, make sure you cuddle some when you go to bed and in the morning. But to repeat, don't make it about sex. Just enjoy the physical contact. You'll have to put aside your feelings of frustration and not allow yourself to get turned on. What you want to see is how she feels about non-sexual contact with you. That will give you direction on how to proceed.
> 
> If she seems to enjoy the cuddling, it will give you a path forward towards working things out. If you can get back to cuddling on a regular basis, it makes it much easier to have that lead into sex more often. However, you can't make the cuddling be about sex. You really have to have the mindset of enjoying cuddling and if it leads to sex, great. If you make cuddling about sex, she'll shut down.
> 
> If she rejects even the cuddling, this will give you a good opening to start talking about your future. If she can't even tolerate non-sexual contact with you, that's a clear sign that you're not right for each other. Sex is sex and there's lots of complicated reasons why that might happen, but there should always be some sort of physical contact in a marriage. If she doesn't even want to feel you at all, that will give you both a clear perspective on the state of the marriage.
> 
> And just to emphasize one more time, don't make the cuddling into something erotic or it won't work. Make the cuddling much more like a platonic hug than an erotic massage if you want to try this.
> 
> One way to start this is to ask her to lie next to you as you go to bed because your day was stressful and it will help you relax. Then the next night say it helped you sleep much better and ask her to do it again. It should hopefully became a more normal part of you going to bed.


Wilson! I am talking to you!

He has tried that. He is blue in the face from talking about this. No, not lately, not in the last year or two. He said in his first post, not to offer up ways to turn her interest back to being intimate.

If intimacy was important to her...she would tell him...this is not good.

She isn't. She does not care. By OP's words, she is happy as a lark. Her husband is not pawing on her. Her husband is not "after" her for sex. 

She is delighted with the status quo. Again, if she were not, she would certainly let him know.

My only question is this, "Does she have someone on the side?" I doubt it. And that is "almost" as troubling. 

She either has a lover or does not want one. Wow, what a rotten deal for OP. He 'has' lost out, either way.


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## MEM2020

Cromer,

There's a guy who made a ton of money writing this book called the 5 love languages. And he got it 'mostly' right. The thing he kind of buried as a foot note - is called sacrifice. And I am not talking about you here - I'm referring to your wife. 

All healthy marriages require both partners to be able to flip an 'all about you' switch. This is the switch that enables you to happily (and that is the key to the whole thing) do something solely because it pleases your partner. 

The inability to flip that switch basically puts your partner in a very bad spot - where any type of exclusive activity is concerned. 

In a lot of these broken marriages - the taker - is really only focused on what their partner DOES for them, not how their partner feels. 

The reason counseling failed is - she made it about herself - instead of accepting that it was FOR YOU. 

------------
That said I'm going to warn you in advance that she is going to play the victim card. Prepare to be calm and honest which sort of looks like this: You don't get to reject someone for a decade, refuse counseling and then pretend that you are the injured party. 

If you really think your behavior is ok, then the next time we are together with all our friends - stand front of the room and tell them you've been refusing to sleep with me since 2007. And mostly refusing for a long time before that. 

Just because I've tolerated it, doesn't make it alright. 






Cromer said:


> It's hard to explain everything in a forum. This situation has a long history of trying to address it many different ways. She hated the idea of counseling because she didn't want to discuss our sex life with a stranger (understandable). But, she went because I made it clear that our marriage was at risk. We've had three counseling efforts and I could write for hours about what I have done trying to find and work a solution. I finally gave up. She remains indifferent about it. Between work and other issues I just didn't want to deal with it anymore. I retired early hoping to make a fresh go of things, but it's clear she's not interested. She will cuddle all day. When I first retired we'd spend all day in bed watching movies together. She's happy with that. I grew to hate it.
> 
> I know that I have enabled this situation badly by putting her first all of the time and finally accepting the status quo for the kids' sake. I grew up in a broken home with an absent father and I was not going to let that be my family. My wife knows that I wouldn't go anywhere. Divorce is something her family simply doesn't do, but I don't see her ever changing. So, my options:
> 
> 1. Stay and accept it.
> 2. Leave.
> 
> I've tried Option 1, really tried. Recently I've come to a point where I don't even want her touching me anymore. I know that sounds awful but it's how I've come to feel. I can tell she's noticed but she's not said anything to me. A friend of hers asked me if I was happy being retired since I was such a high energy person. I'm sure that came from my wife talking about me changing over these past months. For her, if you ignore a problem it isn't a problem. For the first time in all these years, I am about to put something that I want first.
> 
> I don't want coerced intimacy as mentioned earlier. I don't want sympathy intimacy. Yes, I can stay and live half a life. But it's getting where I don't want to be around her. She is a good person and a great mother. She doesn't deserve the brooding and resentful husband I'm becoming.
> 
> I know that I owe it to her to let her know sooner rather than later. I'm guessing that her initial reaction will be "here we go again", but this time is different. I actually have a plan in place. It will certainly be a wake-up call.


----------



## Cromer

SunCMars said:


> Wilson! I am talking to you!
> 
> He has tried that. He is blue in the face from talking about this. No, not lately, not in the last year or two. He said in his first post, not to offer up ways to turn her interest back to being intimate.
> 
> If intimacy was important to her...she would tell him...this is not good.
> 
> She isn't. She does not care. By OP's words, she is happy as a lark. Her husband is not pawing on her. Her husband is not "after" her for sex.
> 
> She is delighted with the status quo. Again, if she were not, she would certainly let him know.
> 
> *My only question is this, "Does she have someone on the side?" I doubt it. And that is "almost" as troubling.*
> 
> She either has a lover or does not want one. Wow, what a rotten deal for OP. He 'has' lost out, either way.


Believe me, I thought about it but I don't see how this would be possible. I've read so much about infidelity in this forum and there's not an inkling of another man or any secrets. We have each other's phone codes, facebook passwords, computer passwords, text each other all the time, tell each other where we're going, etc. She does things with her church lady group but other than that we are always together. Even with the church lady meetings and retreats over the years, they post dozens of pictures on fb and she's always in them. I know most of them too. When I was working we'd meet for lunch regularly, she would go with me on business trips, etc. She is a woman of faith and although I know that doesn't mean much to a lot of people, it means something to her.


----------



## SunCMars

Volcanoes remain dormant for years. They await for tectonic forces to become overbearing...good word...one layer of rock sliding over another.

They build up pressure and then a few things happen:

Steam starts coming out of the ground...or more steam.
Rumbling starts rumbling.
The ground shakes.
Gas, Ash, CO2 and pumice erupt upward.
A Pyroclastic wave comes down the mountain.
Big, large, humongous boulders start being blown out of the mountain.
Lava flows down the mountain.

@Cromer volcano has been through the rumbling phase.
It has gone through the gas emissions phase.
Soon, the boulders will fly.
................................................................................................................
Cromer's wife, once given the divorce papers will stop dead in her tracks.
Any rumbling heard will be the rusty gears in her head trying to turn. 

In a short while, she will expel some gas and launch rocks at her husband.

She will threaten him by saying that she will tell the family "the truth". Her version of the truth.
She will threaten to tell the children and family; that Cromer wants sex. He is obsessed with sex. 

When she sees that this isn't going to work...that Cromer is serious, she will lay down on the bed and tell him "Go ahead, do it. If it so damn important."
She will then tell him that something is wrong with him. He is throwing away everything for sex? "What are you, Nuts?" "I don't understand you?" "Marriage is more than just sex."

A few days later she will accuse him of having a girlfriend, or having some women in mind.


----------



## wilson

SunCMars said:


> Wilson! I am talking to you!
> 
> He has tried that. He is blue in the face from talking about this. No, not lately, not in the last year or two. He said in his first post, not to offer up ways to turn her interest back to being intimate.
> 
> If intimacy was important to her...she would tell him...this is not good.


Calm down, dude. I offered the cuddling suggestion as a way to open up dialog for the divorce. I had assumed (incorrectly) that there was no affection at all. So if he just tried for cuddling and she turned it down, that would be a perfect opportunity to start the divorce talks and her clearly understanding why. 

From the later post, it's clear she's fine with just cuddling and not interested in anything more. I agree with other people that it's time to get all the papers in place and talk to her directly. I don't really see how this situation improves. I'm sure the OP will be able to find someone who will be more receptive to intimacy.


----------



## Herschel

Cromer said:


> This situation has a long history of trying to address it many different ways.


This, A HUNDRED TIMES this. It bothers me when people who have spent so long in a bad situation are questioned like it happened yesterday and all of the sudden a switch was flipped. I am sure that Cromer has gone through every conceivable circumstance to resolve this with the mother of his children. He needs more than she is willing to give. Hell, at this point, if she changed her mind, I'd be flipping the freak out. He went through a pretty prime period of his life, completely sexless. There is no undoing that. If she wanted to, she would have years ago.

You got one shot on this planet and I understand the resentment. You can't worry about that and you can't worry about how she feels. Where was she worrying about how you felt for the last 10 years (probably much more)?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Many people would cheat under these circumstances. And if they come to TAM they're told cheating is wrong and the only honorable course is to leave. Then when you say you're going to leave, you hear everyone say how wrong and selfish it is. To me that's hypocritical. To others, maybe it's situational ethics. Whatever. I think you're doing the right thing. Good luck. Remember she broke her vows first, and didn't ask your permission or forewarn you either.


----------



## Cromer

MEM2020 said:


> Cromer,
> 
> There's a guy who made a ton of money writing this book called the 5 love languages. And he got it 'mostly' right. The thing he kind of buried as a foot note - is called sacrifice. And I am not talking about you here - I'm referring to your wife.
> 
> All healthy marriages require both partners to be able to flip an 'all about you' switch. This is the switch that enables you to happily (and that is the key to the whole thing) do something solely because it pleases your partner.
> 
> The inability to flip that switch basically puts your partner in a very bad spot - where any type of exclusive activity is concerned.
> 
> *In a lot of these broken marriages - the taker - is really only focused on what their partner DOES for them, not how their partner feels. *
> 
> The reason counseling failed is - she made it about herself - instead of accepting that it was FOR YOU.
> 
> ------------
> That said I'm going to warn you in advance that she is going to play the victim card. Prepare to be calm and honest which sort of looks like this: You don't get to reject someone for a decade, refuse counseling and then pretend that you are the injured party.
> 
> *If you really think your behavior is ok, then the next time we are together with all our friends - stand front of the room and tell them you've been refusing to sleep with me since 2007. And mostly refusing for a long time before that. *
> 
> Just because I've tolerated it, doesn't make it alright.


She has admitted that she knows things needed to change, but then won't do anything to change it. I have seen her go to great lengths to get something she really wants. I mean move heaven and earth. She can be very determined. What I've taken from that is she just doesn't care about what I've gone through enough to show that same determination for something I've sorely needed from her.

Yes, I know that she's been a "taker" and I enabled it. I have come to see it. For so long I've desperately wanted to keep what we've built that I was willing to sacrifice a big part of me for it. But I can't any longer. I don't want to paint her as a bad person, she is a good Christian woman and a great mother. I can't hate her but I do resent her.

She would be mortified if I told anyone about our sex life. MORTIFIED.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Yeswecan said:


> You are alone now even in the same room as your W. What will be different when separated?


I can give my answer to this. I am also at the point of just wanting to be alone.

The difference would be that:
I wouldn't have to go to bed wondering if she might be coming to bed soon as well.
I wouldn't be laying in bed wondering if she might actually hug me when she crawls in.
I wouldn't be tempted to reach out to hug her.
I wouldn't actually hug her and get rejected and then feel like a fool.

Being alone would be much better and might actually someday result in a chance to not be alone.


----------



## Herschel

Cromer said:


> She has admitted that she knows things needed to change, but then won't do anything to change it. I have seen her go to great lengths to get something she really wants. I mean move heaven and earth. She can be very determined. What I've taken from that is she just doesn't care about what I've gone through enough to show that same determination for something I've sorely needed from her.
> 
> Yes, I know that she's been a "taker" and I enabled it. I have come to see it. For so long I've desperately wanted to keep what we've built that I was willing to sacrifice a big part of me for it. But I can't any longer. I don't want to paint her as a bad person, she is a good Christian woman and a great mother. I can't hate her but I do resent her.
> 
> She would be mortified if I told anyone about our sex life. MORTIFIED.


First, she can't satisfy your needs, because your needs include her WANTING you. You already said you didn't want complicit sex. You want to be wanted, and nothing will ever fix that.

Second, don't worry about the last line, you didn't talk about a sex life at all.


----------



## Cromer

WorkingOnMe said:


> *Many people would cheat under these circumstances. *And if they come to TAM they're told cheating is wrong and the only honorable course is to leave. Then when you say you're going to leave, you hear everyone say how wrong and selfish it is. To me that's hypocritical. To others, maybe it's situational ethics. Whatever. I think you're doing the right thing. Good luck. Remember she broke her vows first, and didn't ask your permission or forewarn you either.


I've had quite a few chances over these past years, to include a very tempting close call (she was very persistent), but never once went that route. The last time we tried counseling, my wife went so far as to say "I wouldn't blame you if you cheated." But she would be crushed if I had and I couldn't live with myself. For a lot of reasons, it's just something I'm not wired to do.


----------



## Cromer

SadSamIAm said:


> I can give my answer to this. I am also at the point of just wanting to be alone.
> 
> The difference would be that:
> I wouldn't have to go to bed wondering if she might be coming to bed soon as well.
> I wouldn't be laying in bed wondering if she might actually hug me when she crawls in.
> I wouldn't be tempted to reach out to hug her.
> I wouldn't actually hug her and get rejected and then feel like a fool.
> 
> Being alone would be much better and might actually someday result in a chance to not be alone.


This is it exactly! It's horrible. For a long time now, I haven't been going to bed until she's asleep, basically becoming a night owl.

I certainly sympathize. I'm sorry.


----------



## MEM2020

Cromer,

Everyone has a threshold for what I call 'the gory details'. And that's ok. But it's entirely self serving when the summary below is depicted as more than rated PG. Because the real aversion to it - is how selfish it seems. 

We stopped relating to each other as 'man and wife' about a decade back. And I made it clear that was extremely painful to me. 

----------
Regarding the kids - the best move is typically this: 

Your mom isn't really surprised about what's happening, but she is hurting and needs your support. So be good to her, because she needs you now. 
----------
When they press you - and they may - its best to stick with: It's ok if you are sad, even ok for you to be angry with me. I just need you to know that if you ever end up in a marriage where you really don't feel loved, I want you to end it. It's better to be alone than - with someone who expects to be loved, but doesn't love. 

And NO there isn't anyone else and never has been.

----------







Cromer said:


> She has admitted that she knows things needed to change, but then won't do anything to change it. I have seen her go to great lengths to get something she really wants. I mean move heaven and earth. She can be very determined. What I've taken from that is she just doesn't care about what I've gone through enough to show that same determination for something I've sorely needed from her.
> 
> Yes, I know that she's been a "taker" and I enabled it. I have come to see it. For so long I've desperately wanted to keep what we've built that I was willing to sacrifice a big part of me for it. But I can't any longer. I don't want to paint her as a bad person, she is a good Christian woman and a great mother. I can't hate her but I do resent her.
> 
> She would be mortified if I told anyone about our sex life. MORTIFIED.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> Believe me, I thought about it but I don't see how this would be possible. I've read so much about infidelity in this forum and there's not an inkling of another man or any secrets. We have each other's phone codes, facebook passwords, computer passwords, text each other all the time, tell each other where we're going, etc. She does things with her church lady group but other than that we are always together. Even with the church lady meetings and retreats over the years, they post dozens of pictures on fb and she's always in them. I know most of them too. When I was working we'd meet for lunch regularly, she would go with me on business trips, etc. She is a woman of faith and although I know that doesn't mean much to a lot of people, it means something to her.


Since she is a christian give her this link. What do you have to loose. I can see how the constant rejection would kill your love for her.

https://forgivenwife.com/


----------



## wilson

MEM2020 said:


> When they press you - and they may - its best to stick with: It's ok if you are sad, even ok for you to be angry with me. I just need you to know that if you ever end up in a marriage where you really don't feel loved, I want you to end it. It's better to be alone than - with someone who expects to be loved, but doesn't love.


I'm not sure I would imply that she doesn't love him. She likely does love him in her own way, she just doesn't feel sexual towards him. She probably loves him the same way she might love her siblings. So it might be better to say "If you end up in a marriage that doesn't give you the love you need ...".


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> She would be mortified if I told anyone about our sex life. MORTIFIED.


Don't let that stop you from telling the truth about your situation. Yes, she will be mortified, but don't let that silence you. The family has to know the truth. It is really important to your kids to know what really happened. You are their model of a husband and father. If they don't know what happened it will impact them in many ways. The truth matters, even when it's embarrassing. 

I like how MEM2020 put it. Nothing further needs to be explained. That is very clear, but also PG13 and appropriate.


MEM2020 said:


> We stopped relating to each other as 'man and wife' about a decade back. And I made it clear that was extremely painful to me.
> 
> ----------
> Regarding the kids - the best move is typically this:
> 
> Your mom isn't really surprised about what's happening, but she is hurting and needs your support. So be good to her, because she needs you now.
> ----------
> When they press you - and they may - its best to stick with: It's ok if you are sad, even ok for you to be angry with me. I just need you to know that if you ever end up in a marriage where you really don't feel loved, I want you to end it. It's better to be alone than - with someone who expects to be loved, but doesn't love.
> 
> And NO there isn't anyone else and never has been.
> 
> ----------


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Cromer said:


> She would be mortified if I told anyone about our sex life. MORTIFIED.


Why? Two likely reasons. 
1. She's a very private person, and would just panic over this, irrational though it may be given that this is done in complete anonymity. Irrationality is impossible to deal with. 
2. Seeing this in black in white forces her to face the impossible situation she has created--knowing others have seen this, even if they are all unknown, faceless internet denizens, she may be mortified by what she has done. 

You're probably seeing #1, but #2 is the one that is meaningful in the real world among rational people. Of course, when people are faced with the rational exposition of what they have done, often sink even further into their irrationality. When Russell Crowe, in 'A Beautiful Mind' realized that his imaginary friend hadn't aged in a decade and that woke him up to his mental defect... well, that's the exception, not the rule.


----------



## SadSamIAm

CynthiaDe said:


> Don't let that stop you from telling the truth about your situation. Yes, she will be mortified, but don't let that silence you. The family has to know the truth. It is really important to your kids to know what really happened. You are their model of a husband and father. If they don't know what happened it will impact them in many ways. The truth matters, even when it's embarrassing.
> 
> I like how MEM2020 put it. Nothing further needs to be explained. That is very clear, but also PG13 and appropriate.


Don't tell your kids anything until after you have left. 

If you talk to them first and then you end up together, she will hold it against you until the end of time.


----------



## MEM2020

Fair enough. But then simpler yet:

If you end up in a marriage where you don't feel loved. 

--------------




wilson said:


> I'm not sure I would imply that she doesn't love him. She likely does love him in her own way, she just doesn't feel sexual towards him. She probably loves him the same way she might love her siblings. So it might be better to say "If you end up in a marriage that doesn't give you the love you need ...".


----------



## Cromer

MEM2020 said:


> Fair enough. But then simpler yet:
> 
> If you end up in a marriage where you don't feel loved.
> 
> --------------


Getting this right is most important. Our youngest is 18 and he will take it hardest. He needs to know sooner rather than later though, I don't want this news getting dropped on him right as he starts his Freshman year. This is the main driver for timing. Just dang, I feel like I am being the selfish one despite what everyone is saying. It's so hard to not feel that way.


----------



## Yeswecan

SadSamIAm said:


> I can give my answer to this. I am also at the point of just wanting to be alone.
> 
> The difference would be that:
> I wouldn't have to go to bed wondering if she might be coming to bed soon as well.
> I wouldn't be laying in bed wondering if she might actually hug me when she crawls in.
> I wouldn't be tempted to reach out to hug her.
> I wouldn't actually hug her and get rejected and then feel like a fool.
> 
> Being alone would be much better and might actually someday result in a chance to not be alone.


I give it about 2 weeks and you would not want to be alone. Have you tried it? If not, why not?


----------



## SunCMars

Cromer said:


> She has admitted that she knows things needed to change, but then won't do anything to change it. I have seen her go to great lengths to get something she really wants. I mean move heaven and earth. She can be very determined. What I've taken from that is she just doesn't care about what I've gone through enough to show that same determination for something I've sorely needed from her.
> 
> Yes, I know that she's been a "taker" and I enabled it. I have come to see it. For so long I've desperately wanted to keep what we've built that I was willing to sacrifice a big part of me for it. But I can't any longer. I don't want to paint her as a bad person, she is a good Christian woman and a great mother. I can't hate her but I do resent her.
> 
> *She would be mortified if I told anyone about our sex life. MORTIFIED.*




I believe you.

And that makes her even more culpable in this mess that you are in.

Her honor and her pride and her needs must not be tarnished.

As it is, you are not going to rub her nose in this anyway. It will be you and your wife's secret. 
If she asks, "What are you going to tell people?, tell her you will say it is irreconcilable differences. Or better yet, personal. Not to be shared.

For your own sake. Do not mention this blog...TAM.

It will bring more shame on her.

Shame on her!

Sad, so sad...


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> Getting this right is most important. Our youngest is 18 and he will take it hardest. He needs to know sooner rather than later though, I don't want this news getting dropped on him right as he starts his Freshman year. This is the main driver for timing. Just dang, I feel like I am being the selfish one despite what everyone is saying. It's so hard to not feel that way.


I would guess that you feel selfish because you are so used to putting your needs aside and now you are going to stop doing that. Instead you are admitting that your needs matter and you are going to take drastic measures to stop from being continuously hurt day in and day out by the underlying rejection you are feeling in your marriage. I'm sorry it's come to this. I understand why you feel guilty, but think about why you are feeling guilty. You aren't planning to leave your wife destitute or to be harsh with her. You have simply hit your line in the sand and are not going to take it anymore.

Obviously there is no good time to do this, but your plan is as good as it's going to get. I assume shortly after graduation and in time for him to adjust.


----------



## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> I would guess that you feel selfish because you are so used to putting your needs aside and now you are going to stop doing that. Instead you are admitting that your needs matter and you are going to take drastic measures to stop from being continuously hurt day in and day out by the underlying rejection you are feeling in your marriage. I'm sorry it's come to this. I understand why you feel guilty, but think about why you are feeling guilty. *You aren't planning to leave your wife destitute or to be harsh with her.* You have simply hit your line in the sand and are not going to take it anymore.
> 
> Obviously there is no good time to do this, but your plan is as good as it's going to get. I assume shortly after graduation and in time for him to adjust.


Not in the least. That is important to me. Granted, the big house will have to go (lots of equity there too) but she will be set for life unless she goes crazy spending, which I don't see happening. I am hoping that she accepts this as inevitable and is amicable about it. I think she will be.  There is nothing to be gained from a nasty split except paying lawyers a lot of money. In the end, she won't get anything more than what I am going to offer. I've already done all of the math with my lawyers and they agree that she would be crazy to fight for anything more (60% all assets, 2 cars, lifetime alimony = 50/50 split of my income).


----------



## tropicalbeachiwish

10 years!? 10 years!? Your wife violated her vows. Kudos to you for never stepping outside of the marriage. 

However. . . . . I do think you should tell her what you're planning. She's obviously oblivious because she's planning her retirement (as a couple?) while you are planning the divorce. She's going to be hurt regardless, but she'll be really hurt that you allowed her to continue on her path.


----------



## Yeswecan

Cromer said:


> Not in the least. That is important to me. Granted, the big house will have to go (lots of equity there too) but she will be set for life unless she goes crazy spending, which I don't see happening. I am hoping that she accepts this as inevitable and is amicable about it. I think she will be. There is nothing to be gained from a nasty split except paying lawyers a lot of money. In the end, she won't get anything more than what I am going to offer. I've already done all of the math with my lawyers and they agree that she would be crazy to fight for anything more (60% all assets, 2 cars, lifetime alimony = 50/50 split of my income).


The material items good very well be meaningless for your W. Looks great to the lawyers as long as the check is good.


----------



## Cynthia

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> 10 years!? 10 years!? Your wife violated her vows. Kudos to you for never stepping outside of the marriage.
> 
> However. . . . . I do think you should tell her what you're planning. She's obviously oblivious because she's planning her retirement (as a couple?) while you are planning the divorce. She's going to be hurt regardless, but she'll be really hurt that you allowed her to continue on her path.


I think she knows. She's likely just trying to maintain the status quo and hope he doesn't make good on his intentions. Maybe if she ignores it, it'll go away sort of thing.

If she doesn't know, she was asleep during her doctor appointments and marriage counseling.

People keep posting that he should tell her now, but he is ready to go except for not wanting turn his son's world upside down at the end of the school year. Is that correct, @Cromer . Doing it now would not be healthy for his son. That is the reason for the timing and what he is waiting on. Correct me if I'm wrong, please, Cromer.


----------



## MEM2020

The trouble with me and my fellow tribesmen is that we incline towards an Old Testament level of bluntness. 

I'm surrounded by you folks - by - Christians that is. And while I don't subscribe to your theology - I am a big fan of your sociology. Meaning - the way you treat other folks. Especially the emphasis on service. 

I can say all this in a constructive spirit being that I'm married to one of you. And what she'd tell you if she was posting - is you can't claim to be a good Christian wife if you pretend that the sole use of a mattress is for sleepin. 

Monogamy without engagement is essentially demanding your partner agree to be celibate. There is absolutely nothing Christian about such a demand. 





Cromer said:


> Believe me, I thought about it but I don't see how this would be possible. I've read so much about infidelity in this forum and there's not an inkling of another man or any secrets. We have each other's phone codes, facebook passwords, computer passwords, text each other all the time, tell each other where we're going, etc. She does things with her church lady group but other than that we are always together. Even with the church lady meetings and retreats over the years, they post dozens of pictures on fb and she's always in them. I know most of them too. When I was working we'd meet for lunch regularly, she would go with me on business trips, etc. She is a woman of faith and although I know that doesn't mean much to a lot of people, it means something to her.


----------



## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> I think she knows. She's likely just trying to maintain the status quo and hope he doesn't make good on his intentions. Maybe if she ignores it, it'll go away sort of thing.
> 
> If she doesn't know, she was asleep during her doctor appointments and marriage counseling.
> 
> People keep posting that he should tell her now, *but he is ready to go except for not wanting turn his son's world upside down at the end of the school year. Is that correct,* @Cromer . Doing it now would not be healthy for his son. That is the reason for the timing and what he is waiting on. Correct me if I'm wrong, please, Cromer.


That is it exactly! He's graduating in a couple of weeks, plus he's about to receive a couple of other long-awaited "big deal" achievement recognitions. I want him to have his moment, he's worked so hard.


----------



## Yeswecan

MEM2020 said:


> The trouble with me and my fellow tribesmen is that we incline towards an Old Testament level of bluntness.
> 
> I'm surrounded by you folks - by - Christians that is. And while I don't subscribe to your theology - I am a big fan of your sociology. Meaning - the way you treat other folks. Especially the emphasis on service.
> 
> I can say all this in a constructive spirit being that I'm married to one of you. And what she'd tell you if she was posting - is you can't claim to be a good Christian wife if you pretend that the sole use of a mattress is for sleepin.
> 
> Monogamy without engagement is essentially demanding your partner agree to be celibate. There is absolutely nothing Christian about such a demand.



WOW...that is very insightful MEM2020. Very insightful. Presented in this manner it does shed some light on this and others situations.


----------



## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> I think she knows. *She's likely just trying to maintain the status quo and hope he doesn't make good on his intentions. Maybe if she ignores it, it'll go away sort of thing.*
> 
> If she doesn't know, she was asleep during her doctor appointments and marriage counseling.
> 
> People keep posting that he should tell her now, but he is ready to go except for not wanting turn his son's world upside down at the end of the school year. Is that correct, @Cromer . Doing it now would not be healthy for his son. That is the reason for the timing and what he is waiting on. Correct me if I'm wrong, please, Cromer.


That's her exactly! You know, so many other things that I read about other couples having problems with, i.e. finances, work/life balance, trouble with kids, etc. just haven't applied to us. Intimacy has been the one, big issue and she just wanted it to go away. 

You know, if our intimate life had consisted of a once-a-month but it was sincere type of situation, I wouldn't be going through with this. I could've lived with it. But there's nothing and will always nothing. I held out hope for far too long.


----------



## sokillme

MEM2020 said:


> The trouble with me and my fellow tribesmen is that we incline towards an Old Testament level of bluntness.
> 
> I'm surrounded by you folks - by - Christians that is. And while I don't subscribe to your theology - I am a big fan of your sociology. Meaning - the way you treat other folks. Especially the emphasis on service.
> 
> I can say all this in a constructive spirit being that I'm married to one of you. And what she'd tell you if she was posting - is you can't claim to be a good Christian wife if you pretend that the sole use of a mattress is for sleepin.
> 
> Monogamy without engagement is essentially demanding your partner agree to be celibate. There is absolutely nothing Christian about such a demand.



1 Corinthians 7:5 
Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Yeswecan said:


> I give it about 2 weeks and you would not want to be alone. Have you tried it? If not, why not?


You may very well be correct. That is one of the reasons why I am still here. If I knew it would work out fine it would be easy to leave.

I have tried for a few days a couple of years back. I was actually feeling pretty good about it. She talked me into coming back. She now holds that against me, how I "Just run away when things get tough"

Other reasons not to leave:
1) Youngest is 20 and still at home going to university
2) Business - Will have to somehow compensate my wife for 50% of the value of the company. Not easy to do without selling the company.
3) Retirement - I am 53. Divorce will mean retirement is later than I would have liked
4) Love - I love my wife. When times are good they are very good. Just only happens a day or two a month though. The rest of the time is hell.

If a person knew exactly how it would turn out if they left, it would be an easy decision. I know it is just a bunch of excuses. But it is reality. 

Based on the texting between my wife and I today, it might be ending sooner than I think.

Anyhow, I don't want to derail the OPs thread.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> That's her exactly! You know, so many other things that I read about other couples having problems with, i.e. finances, work/life balance, trouble with kids, etc. just haven't applied to us. Intimacy has been the one, big issue and she just wanted it to go away.
> 
> You know, if our intimate life had consisted of a once-a-month but it was sincere type of situation, I wouldn't be going through with this. I could've lived with it. But there's nothing and will always nothing. I held out hope for far too long.


I suspect from reading about these situations it's not the sex that's the problem as much as it's the feeling that she doesn't desire you and love you. It's the tremendous loneliness of feeling unloved and unwanted. Sex is one of the primary ways most men express intimacy and how the bond. (I can here women saying, hey us too, OK maybe so.) I don't speak for women as I am not one, but I know for most men it would be the same if she never had deep conversations with him. It is a primal need. 

I wish you could get her to read that blog I sent you. Someone linked it the other day and I just read it out of curiosity. That women is very good at explaining what male sexuality is seemingly to a female audience who gate keeps as she calls it. She is also a Christian so if there is any pious shame involved that eliminate that as well. It could be a preempted warning to your wife that the end of your marriage is near, if she really is oblivious. Send it. Don't say anything except I need you to read this. At worst it will cause a dialog and nothing will change but at least she won't be blindsided as some people seem to think is going to happen. For what reason I am not sure, but maybe she really just doesn't get it.


----------



## tropicalbeachiwish

SadSamIAm said:


> When times are good they are very good. Just only happens a day or two a month though. The rest of the time is hell.


If you're only getting 1 or 2 good days a month and the rest is HELL, then it may be time to call it. Especially if this hell is shifting from temporary/recent into long term. BTW, a 20 year old is no longer a child.


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## Cromer

sokillme said:


> I wish you could get her to read that blog I sent you. Someone linked it the other day and I just read it out of curiosity.


Thanks for the link, I am reading through it now. Frankly, though, I'm at the point where I don't think this is fixable. But maybe she would finally begin to understand.


----------



## SadSamIAm

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> If you're only getting 1 or 2 good days a month and the rest is HELL, then it may be time to call it. Especially if this hell is shifting from temporary/recent into long term. BTW, a 20 year old is no longer a child.


Agreed .... running out of excuses


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## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> Thanks for the link, I am reading through it now. Frankly, though, I'm at the point where I don't think this is fixable. But maybe she would finally begin to understand.


If you send it to her, it will be a signal to her that the end is almost near. Then when you tell her, she should be expecting it. It's not really for discussion. From what you've said she won't talk about it anyway. It can also serve the purpose of not allowing her such an easy route to blame shift when this all goes down.

In the KJV, what your wife is doing is translated "defraud." The word is used six other times in the Bible and is used this way: King James Word Usage - Total: 6
defraud 4, destitute 1, keep back by fraud 1


----------



## Cynthia

SadSamIAm said:


> Agreed .... running out of excuses


You aren't going to leave your child homeless. S/he can still live with you or your wife while going to school. Talk to an attorney about how to deal with the business. I don't know how that's done, but there must be something you can do.


----------



## Phil Anders

sokillme said:


> 1 Corinthians 7:5
> Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.


This passage gets trotted out routinely, but I always think of it as a wash where refusers like OP's W are concerned, even if they are devout. Both marriage and sex are presented as consolation prizes for inferior Christians who can't quite make the grade. It's clear the real prizes are celibacy and "self-control" and suppression of immoral desires. 

That mixed message leaves the door wide open for refusers to argue they're pursuing a higher calling for themselves and their spurned partners, despite the plain instructions about a marital duty which, it's strongly implied, they shouldn't be enjoying too much anyway. 

I'm not a believer, but I always wonder if this kind of thing says more about Paul's hubris as a newly-minted zealot than about any divine intent. And then I wonder why modern Christians so uncritically accept his biases...but that's an R&P tangent.


----------



## sokillme

Phil Anders said:


> This passage gets trotted out routinely, but I always think of it as a wash where refusers like OP's W are concerned, even if they are devout. Both marriage and sex are presented as consolation prizes for inferior Christians who can't quite make the grade. It's clear the real prizes are celibacy and "self-control" and suppression of immoral desires.
> 
> That mixed message leaves the door wide open for refusers to argue they're pursuing a higher calling for themselves and their spurned partners, despite the plain instructions about a marital duty which, it's strongly implied, they shouldn't be enjoying too much anyway.
> 
> I'm not a believer, but I always wonder if this kind of thing says more about Paul's hubris as a newly-minted zealot than about any divine intent. And then I wonder why modern Christians so uncritically accept his biases...but that's an R&P tangent.


I actually agree. Imagine if he whole human race followed the first part of the command to the letter. It's troubling. However I think the sentiment in the second part of the command fits with my idea of God at least where gate-keeping is concerned.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> Thanks for the link, I am reading through it now. Frankly, though, I'm at the point where I don't think this is fixable. But maybe she would finally begin to understand.


SEND IT! She won't have any excuse if you do.


----------



## Phil Anders

sokillme said:


> I actually agree. Imagine if he whole human race followed the first part of the command to the letter. It's troubling. However I think the sentiment in the second part of the command fits with my idea of God at least where gate-keeping is concerned.


Well, given where OP finds himself, quoting it at her certainly can't make things any worse!


----------



## MrsHolland

Some very wise words from the folks of TAM as usual 

OP I feel your distress, some of the story is similar and much of it dissimilar however the end result is the same, being alone in a marriage is the pits. I ended my sexless/passionless marriage over 7 years ago now, was closer to 40 than 50 at the time and 3 kids that were younger than yours. For me it was not so planned, I woke up one morning and could not take it any more so told him I wanted a divorce. Our sex life was troubled for many years but even as a woman that loves sex (moreso than emotional closeness) it was the pain of him rejecting who I am at my core that was literally killing me. It was not the lack of sex, it was the lack of effort and giving on his part. He knew I wanted a healthy sex life but sadly he has some issues and much selfishness that prevented him from doing anything pro active to build our connection.
He was very giving in many areas of our life but now when I look back they were the things he wanted too, kids, financial stability, adventure, travel etc. 

I woke up that day and realised just how damn selfish he was, if he had of cared about me then my happiness would have been important to him. I hold no grudge towards him and we had a very amicable divorce and co parent extremely well. We were together for 20 years and he is a good man but I had to face the reality that we were not a good, compatible match for the long haul.

My marriage did not fail, it came to its natural end (although it dragged out about 5 years too long). 

Divorce will be harder than anyone can prepare you for but you sound calm, reasonable and measured. Stand your ground, take responsibility for your own failings, invest in yourself by way of taking on board what it is you need to heal. It will take time and strength.

Make sure you have a support network around you, family, close friends and of course the randoms of TAM. Most importantly remember to breath, sounds silly but trust me on this one.

As an end note I am now in my second marriage and have never looked back. I took full responsibility for my part in it all, made sure ex and I did the best we could by our amazing children and actively chose to be amicable. MrH V2 is my man, we are compatible and are building a wonderful life full of love, sex and laughter. Life post divorce can be wonderful as long as you take the required steps to heal and grow.

All the best to you, it will be one of the hardest things you ever do but it seems you are doing it for the right reasons and in the right way. You have one life, don't ever let anyone stop you from living it.


----------



## sokillme

Phil Anders said:


> Well, given where OP finds himself, quoting it at her certainly can't make things any worse!


I don't think so Paul is clearly saying it's better not to be married but if you are have sex with your spouse. Paul was married by the way. I think you have to remember the context of which he was writing it. I think the life of a Christian in those days was very hard. So better to not have a wife. It is extreme though or at least used by extremists. Besides that the Protestant churches teaching is very much in the same line. Withholding sex is a sin. He can just point to about 100 blog posts that use this scripture to say as such. Now Catholics that is different, I believe this is one of the bases for Priests being celibate.


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## WorkingWife

john117 said:


> They rarely believe it, and at the end of the day coerced intimacy under threat of divorce is pointless.


That is a really good point.

I'm going through something similar where I am considering divorcing my husband and I KNOW that he would do every thing I want if I said it is that or divorce. But how would it ever feel good to have someone who is sacrificing just to keep you? Especialy sex. Obligatory sex - how hot; how fulfilling...


----------



## WorkingWife

Yeswecan said:


> I concur. However, this poor woman is about to get hit by a oncoming freight train that is steaming at her back. OP appears to be basking in the glow of planning without his W knowledge.


WOW - I did NOT get "basking in the glow" from his post. I got "feels like hell about the whole thing."


----------



## WorkingWife

Cromer said:


> If I gave the impression that I want to hit the dating scene that's not the case. I'm finding it harder and harder to live in a situation that I have come to resent so much. I mentioned that I'd rather be alone, at least that's how I've come to feel about it.


I understand. If you are living alone you will not be subject to the daily reminder of sexual rejection.

Of course you'll also lose her companionship and it sounds like you are very entrenched. You'll probably be starting over with creating a social life, and it's much harder to do at our age because the majority of people are pretty settled and busy in their lives.

I may be unusually anti-marriage at the moment because I'm considering divorcing my husband and also feeling very bad about it. But as a post menopausal woman with a low sex drive I just have to say - honest to God, if you love your husband how hard is it to sexily, cheerfully give him a BJ or HJ (sorry to be graphic) if you care about your marriage but just can't get there for intercourse for whatever reason? I have had some "women issues" where sex is very painful in the last few years. 
But when women won't sexually satisfy their husbands at all, when their husbands have told them they desire sex, I have to believe there's something psychological going on where the romantic love and good will just isn't there.


----------



## Cromer

WorkingWife said:


> I understand. If you are living alone you will not be subject to the daily reminder of sexual rejection.
> 
> Of course you'll also lose her companionship and it sounds like you are very entrenched. You'll probably be starting over with creating a social life, and it's much harder to do at our age because the majority of people are pretty settled and busy in their lives.
> 
> I may be unusually anti-marriage at the moment because I'm considering divorcing my husband and also feeling very bad about it. But as a post menopausal woman with a low sex drive I just have to say - honest to God, if you love your husband how hard is it to sexily, cheerfully give him a BJ or HJ (sorry to be graphic) if you care about your marriage but just can't get there for intercourse for whatever reason? I have had some "women issues" where sex is very painful in the last few years.
> But when women won't sexually satisfy their husbands at all, when their husbands have told them they desire sex, I have to believe there's something psychological going on where the romantic love and good will just isn't there.


I posted little ways back a few times but not a lot, and hadn't intended to again until I read your thread and thought more about it. The situation with my wife is something like your husband's, where she has come to rely on so many things from me. I also believe she thinks she loves me. A few months ago we were watching a movie together on LMN (ya, I know but I'm home all day) and some guy was telling a woman the reasons he loved her. After the movie, my wife out of nowhere starts telling me why she loved me. I felt horrible. She didn't ask and I didn't return the thought, which I know bothered her. Before I would have said something in return, but these last few months I have been working to harden my resolve in making a life change.

As for social circles, I am planning to move out of state. It is my intent to go back to work in an entirely new endeavor, and I have been working on the certifications for a while. Once this is done, I'm gone. I have a huge social network from all of the volunteer work I've done over the years, one that my wife isn't really connected to so much. They all know her though. I am just going to start over.

I can hear people now..."Cromer is going through a mid-life crisis" but that's not it at all. It's a life crisis, one that has been brewing for years.

ETA: @WorkingWife I can so relate to how you feel.


----------



## Cromer

MrsHolland said:


> Some very wise words from the folks of TAM as usual
> 
> Our sex life was troubled for many years but even as a woman that loves sex (moreso than emotional closeness) *it was the pain of him rejecting who I am at my core that was literally killing me. It was not the lack of sex, it was the lack of effort and giving on his part.* He knew I wanted a healthy sex life but sadly he has some issues and much selfishness that prevented him from doing anything pro active to build our connection.
> He was very giving in many areas of our life but now when I look back they were the things he wanted too, kids, financial stability, adventure, travel etc.


Exactly! But people in our circle just won't understand. I dread getting painted with the "selfish" brush when this happens but I know that's what will take place. You know, the mid-life crisis yarn. I am happy for you!


----------



## farsidejunky

When that happens, memorize a few statements.

"I'm sorry you feel that way."

"I see things differently."

This is for both your wife and anyone else who, after politely explaining to them why you are doing what you are doing, starts to rant or nag.

--

"You do what you feel you need to. I will do the same."

This is for threats such as, "I will ruin you in divorce court!"

--

"I'm not okay with x (lying, manipulation, etc.)."

Use this the next time she says you run away from your problems or other blameshifting nonsense.

--

"Are you done?"

Use this when she keeps coming around to the same subject over and over again.

--

"Relationships discussions are for couples interested in building their intimacy. You have shown over 10 years you are not, and I now accept and agree with that answer."

Use this when she wants to talk about how you have fallen short.

--

This will get ugly. Notice that each of these statements is designed to disengage from her. It will drive her crazy. She is so used to manipulating you that it is second nature. This is evident from the blameshifting and gaslighting she is doing. 

These statements will save you a ton of grief.


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## MrsHolland

Cromer said:


> Exactly! But people in our circle just won't understand. I dread getting painted with the "selfish" brush when this happens but I know that's what will take place. You know, the mid-life crisis yarn. I am happy for you!


People in your circle don't have to understand, you have no obligation to soothe anyone or justify anything.

You know, if it is cheating or abuse or whatever then at least there is a "valid" reason but a sexless/passionless/selfish marriage is not something that needs justifying or explaining to others. 

I did not want to humiliate my ex or myself for that matter (far more humiliating for a woman that is HD with a LD husband IMHO) so my standard explanation was simply...... "our marriage came to its natural end, we care for each other but it was time for it to end."

What you wife says to others about you is totally out of your control, hold your head up high knowing you went above and beyond what many would have. You have not cheated, you are a decent man and no one can take that away from you.


----------



## Mostlycontent

I don't get much time these days to peruse the boards here anymore but I swear in the last week, I've seen so many threads just like this. I hope people know and understand that a person not desiring any sex at all is an unhealthy person. That's simply not normal and something is going on with that person that needs to be addressed.

We all have physiological needs if we're normal. So either OP's wife is just completely not into him in any kind of sexual or physical way or her hormones have taken a total nosedive to the point where she has the libido of an 8 year old girl. From the timing involved, it sounds as though the OPs wife entered peri menopause and her hormones got whacked and she never bothered to address the problem.

I know this because my own wife had similar issues when she hit her early 40s. The difference was that she loved sex and became alarmed when her libido dropped so much. We talked about it, found the right doctor and then went and got treated with bio identical hormones. Her T levels had dropped to a staggering low number and that effects women in the same way it does men. Men's levels are much higher but women need T as well. We got her T levels much higher and her normal drive returned. Problem solved.

As I stated previously, for either spouse to just suddenly no longer desire sex, something drastic has occurred. It could be that they no longer find you attractive, have found another or their hormones left the building. It is not normal or acceptable IMO.


----------



## Cromer

MrsHolland said:


> People in your circle don't have to understand, you have no obligation to soothe anyone or justify anything.
> 
> You know, if it is cheating or abuse or whatever then at least there is a "valid" reason but a sexless/passionless/selfish marriage is not something that needs justifying or explaining to others.
> 
> I did not want to humiliate my ex or myself for that matter (far more humiliating for a woman that is HD with a LD husband IMHO) so my standard explanation was simply...... "our marriage came to its natural end, we care for each other but it was time for it to end."
> 
> What you wife says to others about you is totally out of your control, hold your head up high knowing you went above and beyond what many would have. You have not cheated, you are a decent man and no one can take that away from you.


I understand that I don't owe an explanation to anyone but her family has been my family since I was 19. Her mom is "mom" to me. I don't want to go into too much detail but she has the classic "Leave it to Beaver" family and mine is/was at the opposite extreme.

In a fit of logic, which I am wont to do (math person here), I made a list of "reasons to stay" and "reasons to go". The"reasons to stay" far outnumbered the "reasons to go". But then I weighted the value of each reason, which is subjective of course, and it was clear what I needed to do for my own personal sanity.

For YEARS I've been next to the woman I've wanted so badly, but remained out of reach. I held out hope things would change for so long, but nothing. 

Newton's First Law of Motion comes to mind: _An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force._ What I would add is that the force has to be strong enough to effect a change, which to this point I've not applied. Now I don't care to try any longer.

Thank you for your vote of confidence, something that I am sorely lacking at the moment and it's a strange feeling.


----------



## Cromer

Mostlycontent said:


> I don't get much time these days to peruse the boards here anymore but I swear in the last week, I've seen so many threads just like this. I hope people know and understand that a person not desiring any sex at all is an unhealthy person. That's simply not normal and something is going on with that person that needs to be addressed.
> 
> We all have physiological needs if we're normal. So either OP's wife is just completely not into him in any kind of sexual or physical way or her hormones have taken a total nosedive to the point where she has the libido of an 8 year old girl. *From the timing involved, it sounds as though the OPs wife entered peri menopause and her hormones got whacked and she never bothered to address the problem.*
> 
> I know this because my own wife had similar issues when she hit her early 40s. The difference was that she loved sex and became alarmed when her libido dropped so much. We talked about it, found the right doctor and then went and got treated with bio identical hormones. Her T levels had dropped to a staggering low number and that effects women in the same way it does men. Men's levels are much higher but women need T as well. We got her T levels much higher and her normal drive returned. Problem solved.
> 
> As I stated previously, for either spouse to just suddenly no longer desire sex, something drastic has occurred. It could be that they no longer find you attractive, have found another or their hormones left the building. It is not normal or acceptable IMO.


We've been this route, many times. We both get physicals every year with blood work, etc. Several times she specifically got a physical to see if there was anything physiological to explain it. Yes, she went through the change but this started long before then. We've not been intimate in over ten years.

It's of no use now anyhow. She has no desire to change anything. None. I had hoped that she would come to understand how important this was to our future, to me, then do something about it. But no, that never happened.

I'm tired of it all.


----------



## MrsHolland

OP all families and situations are different. For the sake of conversation I will throw in more info about my post divorce life and can only hope yours ends up in a good, amicable place too.

My situation is very much that of an outlier. We were both very involved with each others families and post divorce we still are but to a much lesser degree. Ex and I share kids birthdays as a family (we will always be a family albeit a different version), Christmas and other celebrations are very much the modern family type of event, me, MrH V1 and V2, a mix of kids, Mrh V2's ex wife, my family, ex's family if they are in the country, whoever is around.

My ex has dinner with my dad a few times a year and he is always invited to my siblings families events. 

From day one I said to my family that I did not want them to ostracise him, he did not go from being a good man to a bad man just because we divorced.

Moral of the story? No idea really. But I do understand the concern with looking like a failure to family and extended family but you know what, a good person that holds their head up high and does not engage in post divorce nastiness can still maintain connections with IL's and other family members.

I very much like your weighted/ matrix type of analysis, it is complete opposite of my scatter brain way of thinking but is in complete alignment with MrH V2's way of thinking.


----------



## SunCMars

Cromer said:


> Newton's First Law of Motion comes to mind: _An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force._ What I would add is that the force has to be strong enough to effect a change, which to this point I've not applied. Now I don't care to try any longer.


The moving force of your passion struck the immovable mass of her lack of said passion.

Slamming your passion into her walled being caused small imperceptible ripples within her massive stone structure.

Ripples have ridges...but no sharp edged love can be discerned. And no Heat of Solution can be measured using digital insertion into the nether fold.


----------



## Absurdist

Cromer I have to ask this question. My wife and I come from Leave it to Beaver backgrounds. We are in our sixties and still going strong. 

As a counselor my wife has seen many women from Leave it to Beaver settings who have extreme sexual dysfunction much like your wife. She has discovered that many have childhood sex abuse that has been buried. It was a funny uncle, neighbor etc. The shame causes this to be buried only to emerge years later. Have you done any digging? Looked into her past with a microscope? You seem to be very thorough but I have to ask the question.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Absurdist said:


> Cromer I have to ask this question. My wife and I come from Leave it to Beaver backgrounds. We are in our sixties and still going strong.
> 
> 
> 
> As a counselor my wife has seen many women from Leave it to Beaver settings who have extreme sexual dysfunction much like your wife. She has discovered that many have childhood sex abuse that has been buried. It was a funny uncle, neighbor etc. The shame causes this to be buried only to emerge years later. Have you done any digging? Looked into her past with a microscope? You seem to be very thorough but I have to ask the question.




Too late for any of that. She had her chance. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3Xnocharm

SadSamIAm said:


> You may very well be correct. That is one of the reasons why I am still here. If I knew it would work out fine it would be easy to leave.
> 
> If a person knew exactly how it would turn out if they left, it would be an easy decision. I know it is just a bunch of excuses. But it is reality.
> 
> Based on the texting between my wife and I today, it might be ending sooner than I think.
> 
> Anyhow, I don't want to derail the OPs thread.


If I may offer my personal experience...

I have divorced THREE times. Two I initiated... one, the last, was forced upon me. I regret NONE of my divorces. The last one was the hardest for me...since I was kicked out after less than a year of marriage so he could remarry his first wife, I was still very much in my newlywed in love phase. But in the long run, it REALLY was for the best, the marriage should never have happened. 

Also... in my almost 47 years on this planet, I have never met one single, solitary person who regretted getting divorced. NOT ONE. EVER. What people DO regret is that they didnt end things much sooner than they did. 

Anyway... I just thought I'd offer this up to you (and to OP) to give you some encouragement and hope about coming out the other side.


----------



## Cromer

Absurdist said:


> Cromer I have to ask this question. My wife and I come from Leave it to Beaver backgrounds. We are in our sixties and still going strong.
> 
> As a counselor my wife has seen many women from Leave it to Beaver settings who have extreme sexual dysfunction much like your wife. She has discovered that many have childhood sex abuse that has been buried. It was a funny uncle, neighbor etc. The shame causes this to be buried only to emerge years later. Have you done any digging? Looked into her past with a microscope? You seem to be very thorough but I have to ask the question.


I don't think there's anything like that, at least no indications and abuse is something that I thought about. I mean, who but she would really know? But it doesn't fit.

She was very much "wait until married" before having sex. We dated for three years, but after I proposed she went onto BC on her own initiative and _it was on_ for months before we actually married. I still remember that surprise weekend at the beach she planned like it was yesterday, the first of several during our engagement. Yes, it was awkward at first but it was fun discovery learning. There was a time when we would have sex two or three times a day on the weekend. In the car, while camping, on the boat, in her parents BR (ya, I know), while hiking, under the pier, etc. It was adventurous, passionate, and amazing. I'm not looking back with rose colored glasses, we had an awesome sex life. I really don't want to rehash it all because there's no point. But those memories make it all the more painful.

My point is that it wasn't always like this, not even close. So abuse in her background? I just don't think so.


----------



## GuyInColorado

My 8 year marriage was sexless the last 4 years. I bailed once my youngest went into kindergarten. 

I understand how you feel... these people telling you to snuggle with her and tell her sex must happen blah blah blah blah. You left this marriage years ago and the thought of kissing her or being naked with her in bed repulses you. When I told my ex I was leaving her, she begged me to stay. I looked her in the eyes and told her I'll never have sex with you again... I'm doing you a favor and refuse to be roommates with my wife. 

Bravo to you for taking your time to plan the exit. I didn't have patience, left her and got laid the next night. I haven't looked back since!


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## Tatsuhiko

Be prepared, Cromer. This is going to shock her to the core. She's going to put up a hell of a fight to keep you. She will go into defcon 1 seductress mode. She's been rationalizing this whole time--telling herself that you've gotten over your issues as you've aged. She's erroneously convinced herself that you've finally gracefully accepted the sexless marriage. An astute woman might have seen this coming, but she's never been particularly attuned to your needs, and has instead chosen to live in a little world of delusions where intimacy is something you no longer need. You need to figure out what you're going to do when she throws herself at you in bed the same night you reveal your plan. Mark my words--it will happen.


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## MrRight

Sex can seem to be more important that it is.

My dad had a breakdown at 70 - they separated - and he spent a lonely year living in a flat. Met no one at all. And eventually came back - now feels better - has built up some interests outside the home - including visiting old people's homes to support the residents there.

I am not saying that will happen to you. But as the old cliche goes - you dont know how valuable something is until you lose it. 

I dont know how old you are - probably late 50s, 60s maybe. Starting again? May be a cold lonely experience.


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## sokillme

This thread is a tragedy.


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## WorkingOnMe

Tatsuhiko said:


> Be prepared, Cromer. This is going to shock her to the core. She's going to put up a hell of a fight to keep you. She will go into defcon 1 seductress mode. She's been rationalizing this whole time--telling herself that you've gotten over your issues as you've aged. She's erroneously convinced herself that you've finally gracefully accepted the sexless marriage. An astute woman might have seen this coming, but she's never been particularly attuned to your needs, and has instead chosen to live in a little world of delusions where intimacy is something you no longer need. You need to figure out what you're going to do when she throws herself at you in bed the same night you reveal your plan. Mark my words--it will happen.




I've seen this go both ways. Sometimes the husband secretly hopes she'll throw herself at him. So he can reject her or change her or whatever. But then if she doesn't throw herself at him and just accepts the divorce, he'll be doubly hurt since not even the nuclear option will make her want him. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cromer

sokillme said:


> This thread is a tragedy.


Yes.


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## Cromer

WorkingOnMe said:


> I've seen this go both ways. Sometimes the husband secretly hopes she'll throw herself at him. So he can reject her or change her or whatever. But then if she doesn't throw herself at him and just accepts the divorce, he'll be doubly hurt since not even the nuclear option will make her want him.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


At this point, I am hoping that she amicably agrees to move on while letting me move on in peace.


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## Mostlycontent

Cromer said:


> We've been this route, many times. We both get physicals every year with blood work, etc. Several times she specifically got a physical to see if there was anything physiological to explain it. Yes, she went through the change but this started long before then. We've not been intimate in over ten years (could be longer, I don't remember the last time TBH) but for a long time before that, sex was a very infrequent. I could go back to over 15 years ago and say that things started to decline before then, but I attributed it to kids, etc.
> 
> It's of no use now anyhow. She has no desire to change anything. None. I had hoped that she would come to understand how important this was to our future, to me, then do something about it. But no, that never happened.
> 
> I'm tired of it all.



Hey Cromer,

If I may ask, what kind of doctor are you seeing for her blood work? Very few, if any, family physicians know anything at all about hormones. You have to see a doctor who specializes in hormones, specifically bio identical hormones, so you can get an accurate reflection of what's going on. Doing blood work for a doc who doesn't even look at hormone levels is fairly useless. Oh sure, they can check for abnormalities as it relates to disease and so forth but it doesn't address the very real hormone issues women have in their 40s and 50s.

In one of your subsequent posts, you mentioned the frequent sex and amorous memories you have of the two of you. Obviously, she was not like she is now at one time so she either pulled off the biggest bait and switch "con" of all time or something changed. Did her appearance change for the worse in the last 10 to 15 years? How about yours? If not, then it almost has to be a hormonal thing. There simply has to be an explanation for the change and I don't mean an excuse that she's giving you. One just doesn't go from almost daily sex, as you described in your post, to none at all without something drastic to have occurred.

I would bet the ranch that her T levels have plummeted or some such thing to explain her complete loss of libido. The thing is, you can still feel healthy but your sex drive just disappears. My wife didn't like it when she experienced some symptoms but other women may not be so concerned, unless of course, they're given reason to be.


----------



## Cromer

Tatsuhiko said:


> Be prepared, Cromer. This is going to shock her to the core. She's going to put up a hell of a fight to keep you. She will go into defcon 1 seductress mode. She's been rationalizing this whole time--telling herself that you've gotten over your issues as you've aged. She's erroneously convinced herself that you've finally gracefully accepted the sexless marriage. An astute woman might have seen this coming, but she's never been particularly attuned to your needs, and has instead chosen to live in a little world of delusions where intimacy is something you no longer need. You need to figure out what you're going to do when she throws herself at you in bed the same night you reveal your plan. Mark my words--it will happen.


Once I give her the news, I am out the door and moving in with a friend on a temporary basis. It's already arranged (he's the only one who knows). I have been slowly moving things that I want to keep into storage (i.e. camping and fishing gear, guns, etc.), things which she doesn't have visibility on since I store them in the garage. I have been purging clothes and other unneeded personal items (i.e. books, papers, etc.) for a while, which my wife believes to be a project to free up space that I took on since retiring. I've hired a pool service, a lawn service, and have a home warranty on the house now. I've fixed everything that's needed any kind of repair, no matter how slight. She believes it's because I want to free up more time to do other things, but it's to make sure that she can keep things in order at the house once I move out. I also have all of the financials neatly arranged for her with instructions, and I paid off her car.

Yes, I feel dirty being so sneaky about it but I don't want to leave her in a bad way when it comes to the nuts and bolts of everything. And I don't want her to try and convince me to stay. That ship has sailed. In the short term, she'll probably stay in the house but I'm sure she'll want to move. In the long term, she can move one with her life in any way that she wants. But once I'm gone, I'm gone.


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## Cromer

Mostlycontent said:


> Hey Cromer,
> 
> If I may ask, what kind of doctor are you seeing for her blood work? Very few, if any, family physicians know anything at all about hormones. You have to see a doctor who specializes in hormones, specifically bio identical hormones, so you can get an accurate reflection of what's going on. Doing blood work for a doc who doesn't even look at hormone levels is fairly useless. Oh sure, they can check for abnormalities as it relates to disease and so forth but it doesn't address the very real hormone issues women have in their 40s and 50s.
> 
> In one of your subsequent posts, you mentioned the frequent sex and amorous memories you have of the two of you. Obviously, she was not like she is now at one time so she either pulled off the biggest bait and switch "con" of all time or something changed. Did her appearance change for the worse in the last 10 to 15 years? How about yours? If not, then it almost has to be a hormonal thing. There simply has to be an explanation for the change and I don't mean an excuse that she's giving you. One just doesn't go from almost daily sex, as you described in your post, to none at all without something drastic to have occurred.


I just can't think of anything "drastic". The only thing that's really changed with me physically is becoming bald. I am a fitness person and have been my entire life. I am within 5 lbs. of my HS weight and was a runner for decades until my knee couldn't take it anymore. Now I'm a cyclist. My wife has put on about 20 lbs but she carries it very well and it doesn't bother me at all. I've never told her anything other than she's beautiful.

If I could point to anything it would be the birth of our first. But even then, I'm not sure.

As for doctors, she's seen several different ones over the years, to include specialists.

The real hurt for me comes in that she has known for so long that this is a real issue for me and has chosen to ignore it, basically rejecting me. I wasn't expecting sex like when we were in our 20's, but nothing for years and years and giving up on it?

Anyhow, it's not anything she's willing to try and fix. At least not for me. I'm past trying to fix it.


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## Mostlycontent

Tatsuhiko said:


> Be prepared, Cromer. This is going to shock her to the core. She's going to put up a hell of a fight to keep you. She will go into defcon 1 seductress mode. She's been rationalizing this whole time--telling herself that you've gotten over your issues as you've aged. She's erroneously convinced herself that you've finally gracefully accepted the sexless marriage. An astute woman might have seen this coming, but she's never been particularly attuned to your needs, and has instead chosen to live in a little world of delusions where intimacy is something you no longer need. You need to figure out what you're going to do when she throws herself at you in bed the same night you reveal your plan. Mark my words--it will happen.



Maybe this wouldn't be all bad though. After all, it's what OP really wants. He's got the best friend and roommate thing down to a science but it's not really a marriage. As has been said numerously, marriage by its very nature is a sexual relationship. Without sex, it's pretty much just a close friendship. The hope would be that OP's wife will get the message and decide to make a change. 

As he stated previously, she has no desire to change right now. You have to shock her into wanting to make a change and it needs to be her decision. If she's not interested when she knows her husband is walking out the door, then she just doesn't care that much and he should go. It almost seems like the perfect ultimatum because you'll either get what you want or find out how your wife really feels about you. The truth will come out in this.


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## Mostlycontent

Cromer said:


> I just can't think of anything "drastic". The only thing that's really changed with me physically is becoming bald. I am a fitness person and have been my entire life. I am within 5 lbs. of my HS weight and was a runner for decades until my knee couldn't take it anymore. Now I'm a cyclist. My wife has put on about 20 lbs but she carries it very well and it doesn't bother me at all. I've never told her anything other than she's beautiful.
> 
> If I could point to anything it would be the birth of our first. But even then, I'm not sure.
> 
> As for doctors, she's seen several different ones over the years, to include specialists.
> 
> The real hurt for me comes in that she has known for so long that this is a real issue for me and has chosen to ignore it, basically rejecting me. I wasn't expecting sex like when we were in our 20's, but nothing for years and years and giving up on it?
> 
> Anyhow, it's not anything she's willing to try and fix. At least not for me. I'm past trying to fix it.



Were any of these doctors hormone specialists though? Most people just don't understand how that impacts people. Anyway, it sounds like you've had enough, specifically since she knows it's an issue for you and she doesn't care to address it. Candidly, I'm surprised you stayed as long as you did. I wouldn't go past a couple of months without leaving my wife, barring unusual circumstances of course.


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## Tatsuhiko

Mostlycontent said:


> Maybe this wouldn't be all bad though. After all, it's what OP really wants. He's got the best friend and roommate thing down to a science but it's not really a marriage. As has been said numerously, marriage by its very nature is a sexual relationship. Without sex, it's pretty much just a close friendship. The hope would be that OP's wife will get the message and decide to make a change.
> 
> As he stated previously, she has no desire to change right now. You have to shock her into wanting to make a change and it needs to be her decision. If she's not interested when she knows her husband is walking out the door, then she just doesn't care that much and he should go. It almost seems like the perfect ultimatum because you'll either get what you want or find out how your wife really feels about you. The truth will come out in this.


The problem is that once you've issued the ultimatum, the sex doesn't really "count" after that point. What Cromer wanted was to be desired and valued by his wife, naturally and organically. He didn't want the "coerced" version, as john117 mentioned very early this thread. And Cromer wasn't asking for anything of her beyond what a good spouse does naturally. He spent years expressing this need to her, hoping she would come around. It hurt all the more when she couldn't even be bothered to try. So when she listed her reasons why she loved him, I imagine it pissed him off more than making him feel lovey-dovey. If you loved me so much, you would show it. You'd desire me, or at least you'd want to meet my needs.


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## MrRight

Tatsuhiko said:


> The problem is that once you've issued the ultimatum, the sex doesn't really "count" after that point. What Cromer wanted was to be desired and valued by his wife, naturally and organically. He didn't want the "coerced" version, as john117 mentioned very early this thread. And Cromer wasn't asking for anything of her beyond what a good spouse does naturally. He spent years expressing this need to her, hoping she would come around. It hurt all the more when she couldn't even be bothered to try. So when she listed her reasons why she loved him, I imagine it pissed him off more than making him feel lovey-dovey. If you loved me so much, you would show it. You'd desire me, or at least you'd want to meet my needs.


I sometimes wonder what planet some partners are living on. Whether they really ever think about the other person in terms of whether he/she is happy living precious life in this way. 

It seems like Cromer's wife is leading a blinkered existence. I am sure she will be quite happy to fritter away his days until he is rotting in the earth - living the rest of her days on the lie that it was a good marriage.

Maybe I am wrong - but I would have thought it is less of a big deal for wives to cater for the sexual needs of their husbands than vice versa. My wife freezes my genitals to a tenth of their normal size by her attitude - no way could I manage it unless I want it.

You might just find if he says he wants to move on to a new life on this basis she will change her ways. She may resent having it this way - but hey - life's not perfect and if she value's him that much she may well find it an acceptable compromise to being left after 30 years - a fate which is a horror to many women and indeed humiliation.


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## Satya

You can dwell on the "what ifs" and analyze her reluctance to listen and take action over the years, or you can put your energy into improving yourself and set better standards on what you expect out of your next life partner.

Some people thrive on staying comfortable, regardless of whether they are depriving another of vital needs. It's all too easy to neglect the person right next to you, if they allow it.


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## MJJEAN

Others have said they can't believe Mrs Cromer is about to be blindsided because surely she must know how important sexual intimacy is to her husband. I think a LOT of women and men who are LD or NoD truly fail to understand even after it has been explained to them repeatedly. Mrs Cromer likely believes Cromer has "gotten over" the need for sex and is just as content in the marriage as her. In other words, she thinks they have a happy marriage and will be shocked and devastated when she is told there will be a divorce. 

It's kind, caring, and just plain decent to make sure she is financially sound post divorce, but she will need more than money. She will need to be able to accept and heal. @Cromer, have you thought about arranging a few counseling sessions to help you both navigate the end of the marriage?


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## john117

And, during these sessions, Cromer should put as much (or little) effort as his wife put in addressing their marital ailments.

On unrelated news, they know. They just don't think their partners will do it. The ultimate in head burying in sand...


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## Tatsuhiko

MJJEAN said:


> Others have said they can't believe Mrs Cromer is about to be blindsided because surely she must know how important sexual intimacy is to her husband. I think a LOT of women and men who are LD or NoD truly fail to understand even after it has been explained to them repeatedly. Mrs Cromer likely believes Cromer has "gotten over" the need for sex and is just as content in the marriage as her. In other words, she thinks they have a happy marriage and will be shocked and devastated when she is told there will be a divorce.


That's exactly how this will unfold. She was expecting to spend the rest of her life with him, watching LMN movies and discussing, at a distance of 5 feet, the reasons why they love each other. His conundrum is the same of all spouses whose love language is physical intimacy: You never want to explain it to the LD spouse too emphatically. You don't want them to just go through the motions, faking it. You drop hints to them and they see you shed a few tears, but they just don't get it. I don't know if it's some fundamental selfishness or what. The HD spouse suffers silently as the years pass until it reaches a point where it's too late to save it. Mrs. Cromer will finally have her "what have I done?!" moment, 10 years too late. Ironically, the prospect of losing her husband will make her finally desire him more. She will throw herself at him. It's up to Cromer to determine how much of her newfound interest is based on desire versus damage-control-manipulation, and whether there's enough material to rebuild the marriage.


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## john117

I doubt she will. They rarely do sincerely...


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## farsidejunky

She has already shown what she will do with him leaving. She has been accusing him of being a runner. It will all be his fault.

This is particularly manipulative, and shows how effective she is at maintaining her state of denial. 

FTR, I do not see this as malicious, but more a lack of depth of introspection.


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## summer41

Cromer said:


> Yes, I am the bad guy in all of this.




I don't think you are. You've tried for 10 years. I've tried for 6, 2 of which have been sexless 6 of 6 have lacked intimacy, I am early 40s. He is my friend but not a husband I've ended my marriage and slowly working through the fallout and it's hard.

Be sure, be as kind as you can to yourself and your wife. 

Good luck 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sokillme

MJJEAN said:


> Others have said they can't believe Mrs Cromer is about to be blindsided because surely she must know how important sexual intimacy is to her husband. I think a LOT of women and men who are LD or NoD truly fail to understand even after it has been explained to them repeatedly. Mrs Cromer likely believes Cromer has "gotten over" the need for sex and is just as content in the marriage as her. In other words, she thinks they have a happy marriage and will be shocked and devastated when she is told there will be a divorce.
> 
> It's kind, caring, and just plain decent to make sure she is financially sound post divorce, but she will need more than money. She will need to be able to accept and heal. @Cromer, have you thought about arranging a few counseling sessions to help you both navigate the end of the marriage?


That is not his role anymore, he will not be her husband. It's really better for him and her to stop doing this. He has already gone above and beyond. She is an adult it's up to her to take care of herself.


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## Taxman

Cromer:
One suggestion before throwing in the towel. As many have said here, your wife appears to know the problem, but is hoping it will just dissipate. Therefore, her behaviours are controlling, and fairly passive aggressive. Before blowing up the world, give her the ultimatum that she is hoping not to hear: Sex, regular sex and intimacy, on a regular basis, and no excuses or you are gone in 90 days. A little shock and awe can work. You must be aggressive, it must shock her out of this false complacency that she has convinced herself is the norm.

You could, as well let her know that a life without passion or sex is not what you want. Ask her if she'd be willing for you to take a lover, and have her move in with the two of you. That is also a shocker that she'd have to wake up and deal with.

Alone is no way to live, it is the express train to health issues and mental issues, especially in those in their 60's and beyond. This situation is retrievable.


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## GuyInColorado

He doesn't want sex from her. That ship sailed years ago. Do you guys know what's it like to be married to someone that you DON'T desire? The thought of being intimate with them makes you want to vomit. It's awful. She could be the hottest thing in the world, but he doesn't want to bang it. She has hurt him to the core by neglecting one of his basic needs and there is no going back. The resentment is high and running through his mind non stop. He's hanging on for kids and finances. That's it. 

He is sick and tired of being sick and tired. Now it's time for action and to start experiencing life with other women that actually desire him. I applaud him for not cheating. If I was in his shoes, I would have cheated and wouldn't lose an ounce of sleep over it. Deep down Cromer is wishing/praying that his wife was cheating, then he'd be able to exit the marriage and be the "good guy." On that thought, Cromer, have you investigated fully to make sure she isn't sleeping with someone else? Catching her in an affair, physical or emotional, would give you the exit you are wanting so badly.


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## Yeswecan

Cromer said:


> Once I give her the news, I am out the door and moving in with a friend on a temporary basis. It's already arranged (he's the only one who knows). I have been slowly moving things that I want to keep into storage (i.e. camping and fishing gear, guns, etc.), things which she doesn't have visibility on since I store them in the garage. I have been purging clothes and other unneeded personal items (i.e. books, papers, etc.) for a while, which my wife believes to be a project to free up space that I took on since retiring. I've hired a pool service, a lawn service, and have a home warranty on the house now. I've fixed everything that's needed any kind of repair, no matter how slight. She believes it's because I want to free up more time to do other things, but it's to make sure that she can keep things in order at the house once I move out. I also have all of the financials neatly arranged for her with instructions, and I paid off her car.
> 
> *Yes, I feel dirty being so sneaky about it but I don't want to leave her in a bad way when it comes to the nuts and bolts of everything. * And I don't want her to try and convince me to stay. That ship has sailed. In the short term, she'll probably stay in the house but I'm sure she'll want to move. In the long term, she can move one with her life in any way that she wants. But once I'm gone, I'm gone.


The nuts and bolts. What about the emotional for your W? I suspect the happenings going on behind her back will make this anything but amicable. Your W may very well hold the door open as a result of how you are handling the divorce without her knowledge. 

I'm not sure why you are here posting. Your bases are covered. You planned your work and seem hesitant to work your plan.


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## MEM2020

Cromer,

The divorce consists of two distinct dimensions:
1. The mechanics (maintenance, money, etc)
2. Emotions

Math guy - you have nailed down (1) and have minimal risk there. 

Thing is, you don't have a plan to deal with (2) in the event that she decides to go full court press and get friends and family to pressure you to go back to her. 

So - here's your plan if she truly wants to 'fight' for you. Tell her she can 'date' you. That's right. She dates you. Not the other way around. She picks you up, takes you out and either brings you home for sex or drops you at your friends house. 

Thing is - if she brings you home - you wake up and go back to your friends house. 

Dates don't have to be expensive. The only rule is the only rule and that is - if she wants you to sleep over, she needs to sleep with you. 

------------
And uhhh - there is some basic math that lays beneath desire. Strength is desirable, weakness a turnoff. So no whining about how she shut you down 10+ years ago. Because you let her. You are responsible for your half the marriage. I'm not saying you were in an easy spot - you weren't. But you just rolled over. 

One last thing - there's no complaints about passion levels. You get what you get. But engagement level - whole different deal. So if she brings you home and lies inert - to let you have sex with her - just stop. Smile - give her a firm smack on the bottom and while getting dressed to leave say: 

I'm not interested in whatever this is. So either step up, or step off, because this type of pretend stuff is a non starter. 

My guess - you will get water works. Lots of them. Just shrug and say: You were tough enough to dish out a decade of rejection, I am confident you can handle being on the receiving end for one night.

And then let yourself out. 

Her lack of desire is likely partly driven by your lack of edge. 







Cromer said:


> I just can't think of anything "drastic". The only thing that's really changed with me physically is becoming bald. I am a fitness person and have been my entire life. I am within 5 lbs. of my HS weight and was a runner for decades until my knee couldn't take it anymore. Now I'm a cyclist. My wife has put on about 20 lbs but she carries it very well and it doesn't bother me at all. I've never told her anything other than she's beautiful.
> 
> If I could point to anything it would be the birth of our first. But even then, I'm not sure.
> 
> As for doctors, she's seen several different ones over the years, to include specialists.
> 
> The real hurt for me comes in that she has known for so long that this is a real issue for me and has chosen to ignore it, basically rejecting me. I wasn't expecting sex like when we were in our 20's, but nothing for years and years and giving up on it?
> 
> Anyhow, it's not anything she's willing to try and fix. At least not for me. I'm past trying to fix it.


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## MEM2020

Oh yeah - I can't believe it - but I forgot the best part. 

So I said there was only one rule - regarding how the dates end. And that's true - but that's kind of the docking station rule. Sleepovers equal sex. No sex equals no sleep over. 

But the body of the date itself also has a rule - just one also - but - it will absolutely change the dynamic of the date. It will make it way, way scarier. Just one, easy to remember rule. No lying. That's it. But strictly enforced that means: no spin. no diplomacy, deception or dissembling. Best thing about a practicing Christian wife - you can play that whole 'hand on the Bible' card. In this case: Hand on the Bible I solemnly swear to tell the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth, unless I explicitly take the 5th. 

Your only play, asked a question you are afraid to answer, is to say: I'm not brave enough to answer that right now. I'll try and get up my courage for a later date. 
-----------------
Because you two - got layers and layers of polite deception - keeping you from really connecting. 






Cromer said:


> At this point, I am hoping that she amicably agrees to move on while letting me move on in peace.


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## farsidejunky

The soft deception is why 10 years have passed with no sex or consequences.


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## GuyInColorado

Have you asked Cromer if he WANTS to have sex with his wife? Why should he settle for her when there are thousands and thousands of other single women out there that will actually desire him and want his **** in them multiple times a day? When was the last time Cromer's wife gave him a BJ? This neglect makes a man dead inside and you can't go back to happy days. He needs a new beginning. 

Cromer... are you a Christian? I was before I divorced my wife. After seeing her bogus faith and asking why God would put me with this miserable person, I don't believe in God anymore. She can have her God and live a miserable and fake life. I get laid daily now and am with a woman that desires me. I desire her. I can't stop thinking about her. You'll find someone else too, you still got plenty of time. And you know what? If things go south and it doesn't work out, you move on. Relationships aren't a death sentence. There is no such thing as soul mates. We live and die. You get one life, so don't waste it.


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## john117

The beautiful part about rejection is that there is no deception involved. After a while that is. 

MEM's scenario above works for the "newly" sexually disenfranchised, but a hardcore LD is not going to fall for it. She'll be too busy being indignant about "being dumped for sex".

The suggestion could work if we had abetter idea of the reason for her shutdown. I'll give her bonus points for sat least trying, but after a decade the excuse factory is shut down.

A better understanding of the post divorce numbers for both would also help.


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## MEM2020

Taxman,
The thing about that approach is a feels coercive. If he moves out and she ASKS him on a date and she ASKS him to come to bed end of the date - that feels more like she is making choices of her own free will and at her own pace. And if she can only bear to be touched once a week - they likely won't reconcile. 

It the dates - create this bracketed context where all kinds of amazing stuff might happen. 

Both these people - owe each other closure. And while I don't think they've cheated on each other - they are each carrying a couple metric tons of secrets. About themselves - each other. 

The only shot they have at repairing the marriage is based on the two of them starting to share all those secrets. You'd likely be surprised how much desire is entwined in all those layers of polite deception they engage in. 





Taxman said:


> Cromer:
> One suggestion before throwing in the towel. As many have said here, your wife appears to know the problem, but is hoping it will just dissipate. Therefore, her behaviours are controlling, and fairly passive aggressive. Before blowing up the world, give her the ultimatum that she is hoping not to hear: Sex, regular sex and intimacy, on a regular basis, and no excuses or you are gone in 90 days. A little shock and awe can work. You must be aggressive, it must shock her out of this false complacency that she has convinced herself is the norm.
> 
> You could, as well let her know that a life without passion or sex is not what you want. Ask her if she'd be willing for you to take a lover, and have her move in with the two of you. That is also a shocker that she'd have to wake up and deal with.
> 
> Alone is no way to live, it is the express train to health issues and mental issues, especially in those in their 60's and beyond. This situation is retrievable.


----------



## sokillme

Do people even read the thread? He did give her an ultimatum years ago. He doesn't want sex that is coerced, for that very reason, he wants his wife to want to have sex with him because she loves him. OP has done more then most would do. 

The thread is not about what he should do but how to handle the fall out. Make no mistake barring her doing a 180 without him saying a word this is done. This is on her, he told her she didn't listen or possibly even worse she didn't care.


----------



## john117

Those secrets should have been Shared during counseling, no?

Agreed, these secrets are the key, and only serious motivated counseling could fish them out...


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## WorkingOnMe

I like that term, polite deception. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020

John,
Maybe you're right. Thing is - it's kind of hard to get someone to agree to go on a date if you're berating them for being shallow. 

We're setting a high but sincere bar here. She has to do the askin and they both have to do the hand on the Bible no lyin oath. 

There is a method to my madness. If the date is one long series of refusals to be honest, they shouldn't have sex. It shouldn't even be on the table. Sleepin with someone who knows you and actively doesn't trust you - is a certain disaster. 

And he can break the ice easy on the first date. He can ask: I want you to tell me something , that you've always wanted to say, but been afraid to. 





john117 said:


> The beautiful part about rejection is that there is no deception involved. After a while that is.
> 
> MEM's scenario above works for the "newly" sexually disenfranchised, but a hardcore LD is not going to fall for it. She'll be too busy being indignant about "being dumped for sex".
> 
> The suggestion could work if we had abetter idea of the reason for her shutdown. I'll give her bonus points for sat least trying, but after a decade the excuse factory is shut down.
> 
> A better understanding of the post divorce numbers for both would also help.


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## GuyInColorado

Oooooomgeee. This is hilarious!

Why would you go on a first date with someone that you KNOW IN ADVANCE isn't going to have sex with you for 10+ years???? LOL LOL What stupid person would keep going on date after date KNOWING this?

Cromer KNOWS all he knows about his wife before he even he picks her up at the house he paid for while she stayed at home for all those years. Tell Cromer why he should date this person? Are you KIDDING me? Do you think she'll change just like that? You people don't know what resentment is. It can't be undone. He needs to start over with a new woman.

The real question is WHY Cromer stayed with her all these years. He wasted his prime years. He can't get those years back. All for stupid crap? You can buy more stupid crap, trust me I know very well what divorce does. Your kids will understand. Would you want your kids to live through a sexless marriage for 10+ years? Can you imagine once they find out, the guilt they will have? Dad stayed miserable just because he was scared to change my perfect world. 

Cromer, would you have bailed 10 years ago if you go back and have a re-do? Are you happy you stayed until the kids turned 18? Give some advice to others in your shoes.


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## chillymorn69

op is a good man. he gave her a chance and she didn't take it now hes done. no wrong doing on his part no blindsiding just.

this man did what exactly we tell people who come here he tried everything under the sun to get her to open her eyes and she selfishly ignored it. he got his ducks in a row and now he pulling the trigger.

I love it when a plan comes together!!!!!

theres no easy way to tell her.

I would say listen babe we haven't had sex for so long even though I tried my best to communicate how i feel about it and you just ignored it. I no longer want to be in a marriage void of desire and sex. and no amount of trying on your part could bring it back because of the deep resentment I have built up against you. I don't hate you we raised children together and I respect many things about you but this is not what I would consider a marriage. we can be civil or not I don't really care one way or the other. but the gentleman in me would like to stay civil for all involved.


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## 3Xnocharm

Taxman said:


> Cromer:
> One suggestion before throwing in the towel. As many have said here, your wife appears to know the problem, but is hoping it will just dissipate. Therefore, her behaviours are controlling, and fairly passive aggressive. Before blowing up the world, give her the ultimatum that she is hoping not to hear: Sex, regular sex and intimacy, on a regular basis, and no excuses or you are gone in 90 days. A little shock and awe can work. You must be aggressive, it must shock her out of this false complacency that she has convinced herself is the norm.


This isnt going to work. She may step up for a bit and provide sex, but as soon as she is convinced she has him back in place, she will go right back to what she has been doing for the last 10 years. Because THAT is who she is. Period. 



Taxman said:


> You could, as well let her know that a life without passion or sex is not what you want. Ask her if she'd be willing for you to take a lover, and have her move in with the two of you. That is also a shocker that she'd have to wake up and deal with.
> 
> *Alone is no way to live, it is the express train to health issues and mental issues, especially in those in their 60's and beyond. This situation is retrievable.*


There is absolutely NOTHING WRONG with being alone! Many people live very fulfilling lives on their own. Staying in a marriage you are miserable in just to avoid being alone is pathetic and life sucking.


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## mary35

In my opinion it sounds like your ship has sailed and your decision is made, and now you are facing the fears of the fallout that is sure to happen when you implement your plan. That's a good thing to do - but no matter how much you plan and think this through - the emotional impact is going to be very intense and far spread - not only for both you and your wife, but also for your kids, and for the extended family and social network. You won't be only blindsiding your wife - but everyone else too because you have not been honest with her or anyone else about your true feelings. You have been playing the part of a happily married man. At least she has been honest with you about her dislike of sex!

I strongly suggest that you not just drop this bomb that you are ending your marriage and then run! 

Instead, start laying the groundwork by engaging a really good professional to help you navigate this end of the marriage. Line up a good counselor and go talk to them first so that they know what you plan to do and then listen to their advice on how to proceed. It may mean delaying your plan a little longer, but trust me when I say that what you are planning will blindside your wife totally and everyone else too! It would be better that you ease into the plan by at least telling her with the help of the counselor that you are not and have not been as happy with the marriage as she thinks. Then you can explain that you now realize that no sex in your marriage is a deal breaker for you. That you thought you could live with it - but you now realize that you can't. You can explain that you are not offering more chances - as you have traveled that road too many times, and already know where it leads - NoWHERE! You can explain that this is not a threat - that you are not changing your mind. All this can slowly be brought out in the open over several months of counseling and then you can slowly reveal your plan to end the marriage! 

Dropping the bomb and running will just make the fallout 100 times worse! Even if she deserves it - its not the right thing to do - its the cowardly thing to do! And more importantly dropping it and running is going to cause more damage to more people - as she is not the only one that will be blindsided by this behavior - your whole family and friends will also be blindsided. You need to start out by letting everyone see and adjust to the real you first - and stop showing them the fake happily married man that you have pretended to be. Let them adjust to that fact first before you finally try to end the marriage.


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## Elizabeth001

3Xnocharm said:


> This isnt going to work. She may step up for a bit and provide sex, but as soon as she is convinced she has him back in place, she will go right back to what she has been doing for the last 10 years. Because THAT is who she is. Period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is absolutely NOTHING WRONG with being alone! Many people live very fulfilling lives on their own. Staying in a marriage you are miserable in just to avoid being alone is pathetic and life sucking.




One of the things I have repeatedly said over the last few years of my life is that it sucks being lonely, but being lonely inside a marriage is hell. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SunCMars

3Xnocharm said:


> This isnt going to work. She may step up for a bit and provide sex, but as soon as she is convinced she has him back in place, she will go right back to what she has been doing for the last 10 years. Because THAT is who she is. Period.
> 
> *There is absolutely NOTHING WRONG with being alone! *Many people live very fulfilling lives on their own. Staying in a marriage you are miserable in just to avoid being alone is pathetic and life sucking.


Use yourself as an example.
You have been through unsatisfying relationships.

I believe you are presently unmarried.

Being unmarried does not mean being alone.

You have friends.
You have family.
You have dates with men...if you choose. And why would you not choose?

You have lovers....................they may be LTR. They may be bed warmers on cold nights. Always your choice.

Being alone is a choice. Never MAN-dated. Not as a result of and/or mandated by divorce.

Sorry, being alone is wrong. 

Wrong using logic.
Wrong using emotion.

Wrong because it is not necessary. 

Wrong because you are cheating...something you abhor.

You are cheating yourself out of touch, intimacy, shared smiles, intrique...bone crushing hugs...my list is endless.


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## summer41

Elizabeth001 said:


> One of the things I have repeatedly said over the last few years of my life is that it sucks being lonely, but being lonely inside a marriage is hell.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Could not agree more with this. It is a totally different kind of lonely horrendous.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Openminded

I ended an extremely long marriage against the very heated advice of all of my family and friends. I didn't care what any of them thought because, as I explained to them, I was the one who had to live that unhappy life -- not them -- and I could no longer do it. 

Yes, you allowed this to happen over the years but now you have a plan. Good for you.


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## MEM2020

Mary,
If he moves out, puts the ball in her court, I'd say there's a 50 percent chance that she gives it her best shot. 

Hey Cromer - you willing to humor me - do a quick little exercise? Just answer the questions below. 

1. What do you routinely do totally independent of your wife? Weekend away with the guys? Night out playing cards? Etc.
2. What do you two have conflict over?
3. When was the last time she apologized to you and for what?
4. When was the last time she wanted Italian, you wanted Chinese and you said: we're having Chinese - and you had Chinese

Everybody wants passion, but no one wants conflict, much less combat. You cannot have passion without conflict. 

Nothing inherently bad about conflict. It's just the result of two determined individuals each asserting themselves. 

But simulating peace - when you're actually in a state of war - that my man isn't exactly honest. 





mary35 said:


> In my opinion it sounds like your ship has sailed and your decision is made, and now you are facing the fears of the fallout that is sure to happen when you implement your plan. That's a good thing to do - but no matter how much you plan and think this through - the emotional impact is going to be very intense and far spread - not only for both you and your wife, but also for your kids, and for the extended family and social network. You won't be only blindsiding your wife - but everyone else too because you have not been honest with her or anyone else about your true feelings. You have been playing the part of a happily married man. At least she has been honest with you about her dislike of sex!
> 
> I strongly suggest that you not just drop this bomb that you are ending your marriage and then run!
> 
> Instead, start laying the groundwork by engaging a really good professional to help you navigate this end of the marriage. Line up a good counselor and go talk to them first so that they know what you plan to do and then listen to their advice on how to proceed. It may mean delaying your plan a little longer, but trust me when I say that what you are planning will blindside your wife totally and everyone else too! It would be better that you ease into the plan by at least telling her with the help of the counselor that you are not and have not been as happy with the marriage as she thinks. Then you can explain that you now realize that no sex in your marriage is a deal breaker for you. That you thought you could live with it - but you now realize that you can't. You can explain that you are not offering more chances - as you have traveled that road too many times, and already know where it leads - NoWHERE! You can explain that this is not a threat - that you are not changing your mind. All this can slowly be brought out in the open over several months of counseling and then you can slowly reveal your plan to end the marriage!
> 
> Dropping the bomb and running will just make the fallout 100 times worse! Even if she deserves it - its not the right thing to do - its the cowardly thing to do! And more importantly dropping it and running is going to cause more damage to more people - as she is not the only one that will be blindsided by this behavior - your whole family and friends will also be blindsided. You need to start out by letting everyone see and adjust to the real you first - and stop showing them the fake happily married man that you have pretended to be. Let them adjust to that fact first before you finally try to end the marriage.


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## john117

Depends on how dignified the move out is.

If they both do it in a dignified manner, and keep it quiet, it's doable. If they both take it to the Sunday morning news shows or social media to slight the other, nope.

If her financial position post divorce is good, why bother?


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## Satya

@Cromer, how are you doing?


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## Steve1000

CynthiaDe said:


> If she has no clue, sex isn't the only issue in the marriage. He told her that no sex = divorce. They went to counseling and nothing changed. She went to the doctor and nothing was found. She is refusing to meet his need, because she doesn't see it as important to her life. She vowed to "have and to hold," but is refusing to have sex with her husband, which is what "to have and to hold" means.
> 
> He hasn't been mistreating her.
> 
> He has been planning a divorce and to do it the easiest way possible without hurting her any more than he has to. He has taken her into consideration. He's not doing this to hurt her. He's doing it to relieve himself of the hurt she is causing him and to do it as carefully as possible. He's tried other methods for relieving that hurt, but ultimately that is in her hands and she has refused despite his clear communication that it is a deal breaker.
> 
> My recommendation is to get it all prepared, then once you've signed the papers and the divorce is filed to sit down and let her know that now is the time. You have discussed this with her before and now it is time to take the step to dissolve the marriage and move on with your lives separately. She has clearly shown that she is not interested in resolving this issue in the marriage. She has had ample time. If she suddenly gets desperate, I would not believe her if she seemed to change.
> 
> It would be good to be clear with your kids, as awkward as it will be. Simply tell them that she has refused to have sex with you for over ten years, you told her you would divorce her if that wasn't resolved, and in all these years she has not corrected the problem. They can make up their own minds how they feel about that, but as young people I have a feeling they will understand.


Great post from you. OP's wife may be a nice and pleasant person, but still she ends up in a sexless marriage knowing that her husband has expressed a desire for it. I question how much she could really love the OP.


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## Thound

Elizabeth001 said:


> One of the things I have repeatedly said over the last few years of my life is that it sucks being lonely, but being lonely inside a marriage is hell.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Gospel


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## Thound

Satya said:


> @Cromer, how are you doing?


Anyone check the ID channel?


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## MrRight

Cromer said:


> Once I give her the news, I am out the door and moving in with a friend on a temporary basis. It's already arranged (he's the only one who knows). I have been slowly moving things that I want to keep into storage (i.e. camping and fishing gear, guns, etc.), things which she doesn't have visibility on since I store them in the garage. I have been purging clothes and other unneeded personal items (i.e. books, papers, etc.) for a while, which my wife believes to be a project to free up space that I took on since retiring. I've hired a pool service, a lawn service, and have a home warranty on the house now. I've fixed everything that's needed any kind of repair, no matter how slight. She believes it's because I want to free up more time to do other things, but it's to make sure that she can keep things in order at the house once I move out. I also have all of the financials neatly arranged for her with instructions, and I paid off her car.
> 
> Yes, I feel dirty being so sneaky about it but I don't want to leave her in a bad way when it comes to the nuts and bolts of everything. And I don't want her to try and convince me to stay. That ship has sailed. In the short term, she'll probably stay in the house but I'm sure she'll want to move. In the long term, she can move one with her life in any way that she wants. But once I'm gone, I'm gone.


I love this post. It reminds me of some of the concerns I have for the big day. what to do with my LP collection? I have been selling the better ones on ebay - the rest will go to a charity shop. But there's loads of clutter (mostly hers though) - Im going to start getting rid bit by bit - hundreds of books - clothing etc. I feel like I could live with just the clothes on my back dont need all this junk accumulated over the years. And the heating system needs a flush - ok must leave the house in good order for her to enjoy her solitude. Cant have the roof leaking or washing machine breaking down.
arent we swell guys? If she left she would just go and let the house collapse.

I could be wrong but I think she would get down on her knees to stop you from going. Or at least after you have gone she may try and get you back at any cost. You would be a fool to move back though once you are free.


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## Cynthia

Thound said:


> Anyone check the ID channel?


What is the ID channel?


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## Yeswecan

CynthiaDe said:


> What is the ID channel?


Investigation Discovery.


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## Cromer

Satya said:


> @Cromer, how are you doing?


Hanging in there, thanks for asking. Just been thinking about some of what I'm reading here.


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## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> Hanging in there, thanks for asking. Just been thinking about some of what I'm reading here.


If it becomes overwhelming here and you drop out, please come back once you have told her and let us know how you are doing and how it went for your wife and your family. I wish you the best and hope that they all understand and are supportive of both you and your stbx.


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## Yeswecan

Cromer said:


> Hanging in there, thanks for asking. Just been thinking about some of what I'm reading here.


Sorry for busting your chops in previous posts, Cromer. I do hope it works out for all concerned. It is tough no doubt and I can only imagine as I have not had to face a life altering decision as this. I hope you the best!


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## MrRight

Well cromer (btw - that's a seaside resort in norfolk - wonder if that's where you live)

one possibility you may get cold feet.

I dont see why though - unlike me you have run out of excuses - no kids - no sex in 10 years.

I knew a guy like you - similar story - no planning though - his wife came back from a round of golf with her friends - and he was gone when she came back - just left a brief note saying I've had enough. didnt take a thing and just vanished.

I think the older you get - the more that is likely to happen if things are not right.


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## Bibi1031

Cromer said:


> Getting this right is most important. Our youngest is 18 and he will take it hardest. He needs to know sooner rather than later though, I don't want this news getting dropped on him right as he starts his Freshman year. This is the main driver for timing. Just dang, I feel like I am being the selfish one despite what everyone is saying. It's so hard to not feel that way.


That is because that is how the kids and your wife will see it initially. They were used to you giving everything up for them, why are you being so darn selfish now?

That of course is not true, but that is what they are going to think for quite some time. Be ready to give them time and patience to accept that you were there for them in their time of need. Now you need to find yourself again. It's time to end something that was extremely detrimental to you. You will still be there for the kids and of course your wife if that is what she can muster, but you need your freedom and you want to give her hers. The marriage you had was not really a true marriage at all for the past 10 years. You are just ending what should have ended 10 years ago.

The guilt is normal but misplaced Cromer. You don't need it anymore. She doesn't want the resentment you feel either, she just doesn't know that either. You don't love her anymore like a man needs to love his wife to carry them til the end. That ship sailed off 10 years ago. 

Let this dead marriage finally rest in peace and give your left behind family time to process the new family that will be built with sharing time apart with mom and dad and not together anymore.

Most of us that are divorced have had time to work this out. It was not easy in the beginning, but it is doable as the numbers of nuclear families staying til death do us part is dropping like flies over the years.

Nip it in the bud or it will eat at you...the guilt I mean.


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## lisacolorado

I hope you will tell her before you drop the d-bomb. I'm not criticizing--I'm right behind you! Married 27 years and he's a good guy. I'm just...I can't stand the sound of him chewing and can't stand to be locked in for the rest of my life like a prisoner.


----------



## Cynthia

lisacolorado said:


> I hope you will tell her before you drop the d-bomb. I'm not criticizing--I'm right behind you! Married 27 years and he's a good guy. I'm just...I can't stand the sound of him chewing and can't stand to be locked in for the rest of my life like a prisoner.


He did tell her. It's a big deal. She went to the doctor. They had marriage counseling. She knows all about it, but it didn't make any difference.

Welcome to TAM. As you get a little more experience you will notice that it's helpful to read everything the OP (opening poster and also used for opening post) has said in order to have a better picture. People tend to ask questions and the OP responds, so a clearly picture is formed about what's going on.


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## bandit.45

MrRight said:


> Well cromer (btw - that's a seaside resort in norfolk - wonder if that's where you live)
> 
> one possibility you may get cold feet.
> 
> I dont see why though - unlike me you have run out of excuses - no kids - no sex in 10 years.
> 
> I knew a guy like you - similar story - no planning though - his wife came back from a round of golf with her friends - and he was gone when she came back - just left a brief note saying I've had enough. didnt take a thing and just vanished.
> 
> I think the older you get - the more that is likely to happen if things are not right.


I read a story many years ago on another website, written by the son of a man who did this also. He lived for years in a dud marriage, but he loved his wife and wanted to stay married. He used to handcraft custom made furniture for her...one new piece every year. Beautiful stuff...looked just like real Chippendale. Then around the 35 year mark he found out through a family friend that about ten years prior his wife had been in a LTA with a guy she worked with. He put two and two together and figured out that she had broken up with her OM around the same she stopped being intimate with him. In her own sick way she was witholding sex from him as a way of staying faithful to an OM who had dumped her. He did some sleuthing to confirm this, and once he did he pretty much did the same thing OP is doing. He got everything ready, settled his finances, and then one weekend while she was away visiting their daughter, he packed up his truck and skedaddled. Before going, he finished the last piece of furniture he had built her and set it in the living room for her to see when she got home...some kind of big beautiful wardrobe. Well, when she got home she saw it, and upon opening the doors to look inside found a goodbye letter with his wedding ring sitting on top of it. She got served the D papers a day or two later. 

According to the son she cried for about a day and then went on with her life. She didn't beg her husband to come back. She knew the jig was up.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

bandit.45 said:


> Beautiful stuff...looked just like real Chippendale.


Maybe he should have made _himself _look like a real Chippendale model:grin2:

Sorry, not helpful I know but I couldn't resist. Doesn't sound like it would have helped anyway. I got myself pretty ripped even after hitting the half century mark, with no noticeable increase in physical response from my wife.


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## mary35

You are not being selfish - you are simply focusing on your self - on your needs for once in your life! Nothing wrong with that unless you ONLY self focus all the time while disregarding others.


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## introvert

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> My story is pretty much identical to yours (not totally sexless, but there is a HUGE disconnect there).
> 
> Have you considered the whole picture rather than looking at the sexual dissatisfaction in isolation?
> 
> Even if you set aside the morality of abandoning your vows and look at this in purely selfish terms, do you really think that, at this stage in life, you're going to find a better overall situation? Really, how likely do you think it may be that you'll find a good person who you care for, a loving partner, _and _great sex?
> 
> Just look at the sex thing in isolation for a minute. Most women have less drive than men to begin with. Add to that your age--you're going to be looking at a small group to begin with (not married), and they will largely be menopausal, likely complicating an already difficult sexual situation even further. How likely are you to find a great sexual partner at this stage? This is going to be exceedingly rare. And, assuming you actually find such a gem, what are the odds she'll be up to snuff in all the other areas you already have today?
> 
> Tread carefully, friend. Remember the story about the dog with the bone looking at his reflection in the lake.


Okay, I haven't read through all of the pages and posts here yet...but I felt the same way when my wife dumped me two years ago, and I am now in a freaking sexually hot relationship with another woman who has the exact same sex drive as I do, and we are both in our fifties.

I have been in a sexless relationship in my past, and it was awful. A high drive person needs to have sex at least every other bank holiday. Cromer has gone for ten years with zero sex.

Cromer knows he will have to sacrifice big money in this situation, but I think he should go for it.


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## introvert

And for those of you who are urging him to try again with his wife? Be realistic. They are essentially brother and sister at this point. There is no rekindling anything after ten years of no sex. They are roommates with a lengthy history in common. That's it.


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## bandit.45

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Maybe he should have made _himself _look like a real Chippendale model:grin2:
> 
> Sorry, not helpful I know but I couldn't resist. Doesn't sound like it would have helped anyway. I got myself pretty ripped even after hitting the half century mark, with no noticeable increase in physical response from my wife.


Once a woman loses her desire for her husband, a door closes in her mind, and there is no unlocking it after that point. 

A husband could get ripped, grow a 9" rod, win the Texas lottery, discover the cure for the cold virus, and learn to ballroom dance, and she still wouldn't desire him.


----------



## Cynthia

introvert said:


> And for those of you who are urging him to try again with his wife? Be realistic. They are essentially brother and sister at this point. There is no rekindling anything after ten years of no sex. They are roommates with a lengthy history in common. That's it.


Think about it folks. If they haven't had sex in over ten years and he cannot even recall the last time they did have sex, that includes the time after he told her that it was not working for him. Even with counseling regarding the lack of sex she still did not have sex with him; not even one time. She didn't even give it a try. Someone like that is not interested in meeting the natural needs of her spouse.

They are not children. They are not platonic friends. They are married adults. Married people are supposed to be lovers. They are supposed to share their bodies with each other. If a spouse refuses to share her body with her husband when there is no discernable reason why not and she is clearly not interested in doing anything to resolve the problem, it should be obvious that she really isn't interested in meeting a normal, natural need that most people have. One that she vowed to share with her husband when they said, "I do." 

Would he have still married her if he knew this was going to happen? Probably not. That is why the term "defraud" is used to describe this kind of behavior. People get married expecting that it is a sexual relationship. Withholding sex from one's spouse who is suffering for lack thereof is not right. It's not normal. It creates stress and destabilizes the relationship to the point that most people will start look outside the marriage. This is basic common sense. For her to think that he is going to live like this indefinitely is foolishness.

Planning retirement activities and so forth while she has been warned that she is on borrowed time is just a way to rug sweep and hope it all goes away. I seriously doubt that she really believes he is going to continue on in the marriage like this. He told her and insisted that they get help, yet she didn't really participate, because she made zero changes to resolve this most basic issue.

It would be one thing if they were both this way and agreed this was okay. But she knows it's not okay and she knew before she ever married him that he was expecting to have a sexual relationship with her.


----------



## introvert

Cromer?

After my divorce, I thought my sex life was done. I'm a mid-fifties lesbian, and lesbians have a notorious history of bed death. I've been a very high drive person my entire life, and I've been with zero women who had equal drives.

But then, I met my now gf...and she has the exact same drive that I do, plus she's a kinkster like I am...and the sex has never been better, I swear. Don't lose hope, you will live and love again.


----------



## Elizabeth001

introvert said:


> Cromer?
> 
> 
> 
> After my divorce, I thought my sex life was done. I'm a mid-fifties lesbian, and lesbians have a notorious history of bed death. I've been a very high drive person my entire life, and I've been with zero women who had equal drives.
> 
> 
> 
> But then, I met my now gf...and she has the exact same drive that I do, plus she's a kinkster like I am...and the sex has never been better, I swear. Don't lose hope, you will live and love again.




This post makes me want to be a lesbian! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rockon

introvert said:


> lesbians have a notorious history of bed death.


Forgive my ignorance but what is bed death?


----------



## Elizabeth001

rockon said:


> Forgive my ignorance but what is bed death?




Dude...think about it. 

LMFAO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rockon

Elizabeth001 said:


> Dude...think about it.
> 
> LMFAO
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Jeez, sorry I asked.


----------



## Elizabeth001

rockon said:


> Jeez, sorry I asked.




No worries. Perhaps I am misguided but I see it as something that can happen in any sexual relationship, regardless of gender or sexual preference. 

Things are rockin in the bedroom and then all of a sudden...wham! It dies. 

Uhhh...hope I got that right because I have posted some amazing sh1t today and don't want to ruin it now :/

:-D


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## introvert

Elizabeth001 said:


> No worries. Perhaps I am misguided but I see it as something that can happen in any sexual relationship, regardless of gender or sexual preference.
> 
> Things are rockin in the bedroom and then all of a sudden...wham! It dies.
> 
> Uhhh...hope I got that right because I have posted some amazing sh1t today and don't want to ruin it now :/
> 
> :-D
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, but honestly? It seems to die all the time with lesbians! I'm so glad I found a kinky gf.


----------



## WilliamM

I suppose someone dying of thirst who is asking for a drink of water could be called selfish, by some people.

I am selfish. I have always been selfish, and I have no problem being selfish. But that's me.

Please don't think you are being selfish. Your parched bones have turned to dust already.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

introvert said:


> Okay, I haven't read through all of the pages and posts here yet...but I felt the same way when my wife dumped me two years ago, and I am now in a freaking sexually hot relationship with another woman who has the exact same sex drive as I do, and we are both in our fifties.
> 
> I have been in a sexless relationship in my past, and it was awful. A high drive person needs to have sex at least every other bank holiday.  Cromer has gone for ten years with zero sex.
> 
> Cromer knows he will have to sacrifice big money in this situation, but I think he should go for it.


Given the completely sexless situation coupled wit other factors, I would tend to agree.

And congrats to you as well.


----------



## MrRight

bandit.45 said:


> I read a story many years ago on another website, written by the son of a man who did this also. He lived for years in a dud marriage, but he loved his wife and wanted to stay married. He used to handcraft custom made furniture for her...one new piece every year. Beautiful stuff...looked just like real Chippendale. Then around the 35 year mark he found out through a family friend that about ten years prior his wife had been in a LTA with a guy she worked with. He put two and two together and figured out that she had broken up with her OM around the same she stopped being intimate with him. In her own sick way she was witholding sex from him as a way of staying faithful to an OM who had dumped her. He did some sleuthing to confirm this, and once he did he pretty much did the same thing OP is doing. He got everything ready, settled his finances, and then one weekend while she was away visiting their daughter, he packed up his truck and skedaddled. Before going, he finished the last piece of furniture he had built her and set it in the living room for her to see when she got home...some kind of big beautiful wardrobe. Well, when she got home she saw it, and upon opening the doors to look inside found a goodbye letter with his wedding ring sitting on top of it. She got served the D papers a day or two later.
> 
> According to the son she cried for about a day and then went on with her life. She didn't beg her husband to come back. She knew the jig was up.


He must have adored her to build all that furniture. What a FB.

But this is another story where there is no I" want to divorce you" chat and go. Guy just leaves a note and vanishes. Pretty much what I intend to do one day. Every time in the past when we fall out and she says to me - go! And I say ok - she starts laying down impossible demands - signed papers promising big bucks etc. It all ends up with going back to square one. I think the disappearing act may be necessary in some cases.


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## MrRight

introvert said:


> Okay, I haven't read through all of the pages and posts here yet...but I felt the same way when my wife dumped me two years ago, and I am now in a freaking sexually hot relationship with another woman who has the exact same sex drive as I do, and we are both in our fifties.
> 
> I have been in a sexless relationship in my past, and it was awful. A high drive person needs to have sex at least every other bank holiday. Cromer has gone for ten years with zero sex.
> 
> *Cromer knows he will have to sacrifice big money in this situation*, but I think he should go for it.


I think the money becomes irrelevant. what's the use of a fortune to a prisoner?

I would live in one room with a single bed - leaving behind a house and lifetime of possessions.


----------



## Cromer

Well, the shat hit the fan tonight. Not up for an update right now but will post tomorrow. I appreciate everyone's input, even though I don't agree with some of it.


----------



## MrRight

Cromer said:


> Well, the shat hit the fan tonight. Not up for an update right now but will post tomorrow. I appreciate everyone's input, even though I don't agree with some of it.



cant wait.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Cromer said:


> Well, the shat hit the fan tonight. Not up for an update right now but will post tomorrow. I appreciate everyone's input, even though I don't agree with some of it.


Sorry you're going through all this Cromer, hope all is ok. (well... ok as it CAN be...) We're here for ya.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
I do think counseling would help. But - the reason it has to be accompanied by him moving out is that communication without commitment is just verbal masturbation. You aren't creating a connection - because the other person is mostly (entirely) focused on their own agenda. 

And I think that his presence in this house makes him - sort of invisible to her because she is so used to taking him for granted. He will however become very very visible - if he moves out. 




john117 said:


> Those secrets should have been Shared during counseling, no?
> 
> Agreed, these secrets are the key, and only serious motivated counseling could fish them out...


----------



## Don't Panic

This is such a heartbreaking, cautionary tale....one that speaks volumes regarding the importance of long-term sexual compatibility and the damage that polite lies will inflict upon a seemingly "good" marriage. 

Thank you for sharing this Cromer. I hope for a happy outcome, whatever that may eventually be, for you. MEM's advice to you has particularly spot-on...an incredibly insightful, simple and direct way to approach your situation. 

I want you to know that my son is also 18, and also leaving for university in the fall. I shared your story with him. It is crucial (IMO) that we teach our children the importance (and beauty and FUN!) of sexual compatibility and the power of open and honest dialogues within our marriages. 

Sorry that you are here. Your story WILL help others.


----------



## Cromer

Let me start by saying again I appreciate all of your comments and input. They have been very helpful in getting me to see things from several different angles. I debated about posting this because I acted like a total ass last night, but here goes.

After reading through all of this and thinking about things, I did something that I hadn't done in a long time. I got out a bottle and proceeded to get liquored up last night. 

I spent a lot of yesterday with the chainsaw doing some tree clean-up work on the property that I've been putting off (we live on 15 acres). Nothing like good ol' manual labor, there's a lot of time for thinking. Well, I was tired last night and it was my intention to peacefully watch zombie movies on Netflix in an effort to get my "man card" back after seeing all of the LMN crap I've watched lately. I don't mean to be flip but I'm trying to maintain a sense of humor. Anyhow...

After I'd had several strong drinks, my wife comes into the room, kisses my bald head (I shave it), and asked if I would be willing to go to a church couple's retreat next month. She has asked before and I've only said that I'd think about it. Keep in mind that we know a lot of people who are going and it's important to her for us to go. The conversation went something like this:

Me: No.
Her: Why not?
Me: Because I don't want to go.
Her: Why?
Me: I'll tell you what. I'll go if you promise me something.
Her: What?
Me: That while we're there you'll f**k me like you mean it.

Of course, I have no intention of going. I only said that to provoke a response.

She didn't know what to say, then ran off to the bedroom, shut and locked the door, and started crying. I couldn't leave well enough alone, so I stood outside the door and said "You know, I'm outta here when *our son* is gone and I'm going to get laid somewhere, maybe Vegas. You can take that to the bank." Then I went back to watching TV, thought about posting here but was really tired, then fell asleep in my recliner. When I woke up this morning, she was gone. I just found out she's at her mom's house.

Well, there you have it.


----------



## Cynthia

Most people under pressure let off steam eventually and when they do it isn't pretty. What you did wasn't kind, but it wasn't unexpected, especially after you've been posting here and thinking so much about this.

It's okay that you let the cat out of the bag with your wife, but both of you do need to consider your son and make sure he's okay. I would make that clear to your wife. This is between the two of you and should not interfere with your son's ability to complete what lies ahead for him. She needs to keep it together for him, which is what you've been doing up until yesterday. If you can hold on for ten years, she can hold on for a month. Don't let her be a baby. Set some boundaries.

Remember she is a grown woman. Furthermore, as a Christian she should have a strong spiritual life to help her through this. Don't let her turn this around, blame shift, to you. Shut that down quickly. She is likely going to try to suck you and play on your guilt feelings. Do not accept her guilt or false guilt.

Are you a Christian?

Edit to add: And please do not ask her to come home. Let her stay with her mommy.


----------



## wilson

Well, you really know how to get the ball rolling. 

While your underlying message was valid, how you delivered it was pretty harsh. I'm guessing if she's typical, she's portraying you as pretty horrible to anyone who would listen and not taking any of the blame herself.

Make sure she understands that you reached your breaking point and that's why it all came out. If she thinks a man can live for 10 years without intimacy and not care, she's not living in the real world. I'm sure she'll come up with a million excuses, but none of that matters. If she wants to be married and live with a man, intimacy needs to be a normal and usual part of the relationship. If she can't provide that, then the marriage is over.


----------



## Steve1000

Cromer said:


> Me: No.
> Her: Why not?
> Me: Because I don't want to go.
> Her: Why?
> Me: I'll tell you what. I'll go if you promise me something.
> Her: What?
> Me: That while we're there you'll f**k me like you mean it.
> 
> Of course, I have no intention of going. I only said that to provoke a response.
> 
> She didn't know what to say, then ran off to the bedroom, shut and locked the door, and started crying. I couldn't leave well enough alone, so I stood outside the door and said "You know, I'm outta here when *our son* is gone and I'm going to get laid somewhere, maybe Vegas.


I'm sure that you don't need anyone here to tell you that you messed up last night. However, it could have been worse. You made it clear that the reason for your anger and resentment is because of years of her lack of empathy about the lack of sex. It would have been worse if you exploded about some other topic. 

Now that it happened, you should apologize for exploding at her with hurtful words, but stay strong about why you exploded in the first place.


----------



## farsidejunky

Congratulations. You were honest with her for the first time in years, even if you did so in a less than savory manner.

Do not contact her or reach out to her. From this point forward, when she attempts contact, be direct but not harsh. Continue to speak the truth.

And Cromer? No more alcohol. None. Not "just one or two". Zero.


----------



## MrRight

Thank you for sharing that with us.

I think there will a lot of stunned silence after reading your post.

I think this could potentially put you back a little - but you should not allow your poor drunken behaviour to deflect you off course.

Perhaps you will take this chance to clear out now? She's upset - hurt - you could drop the bomb and let her take all the pain together now - or put it off - build some trust again - and then do it.

You didnt mention that you have a drink issue. And zombie films are not the best way to inject testosterone - try High Noon, or Shane. And above all - lay off the drink.

How old is your son? I dont think you mentioned this - 35 year marriage - I assumed any children had left home. 

Anyway - not the most gallant way of speaking but I am sure you will prevail in the end.

You are probably feeling like an absolutely dirty rotten scoundrel.


----------



## Steve1000

farsidejunky said:


> You were honest with her for the first time in years, even if you did so in a less than savory manner.


That's a great point.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

I hope that we didn't provoke you into behaving that way. I think you should call her. First, apologize that you behaved inappropriately. Then gently explain to her that the lack of intimacy, and her unwillingness to address it, has destroyed you over the past 10 years and that you feel it's time for you to move on. Tell her that you will always love her as the mother of your children and want to make sure she is treated fairly in the divorce. Promise her that now that you've had your venting session, you'll behave better in the future.


----------



## Noble1

Sorry to hear about what happened.

As already commented on, it is understandable that you blew up a bit as your situation and resentment is always on your mind.

If you are able to, an apologies for the delivery of the message should be offered.

You still have a viable plan in place for your exit so this should not interfere with your overall plan.

Good luck.


----------



## farsidejunky

I agree with the posts above about apologizing. But that is all. 

"I'm sorry for how I said what I said last night. Take care."

Then end the conversation.


----------



## Yeswecan

Cromer said:


> Let me start by saying again I appreciate all of your comments and input. They have been very helpful in getting me to see things from several different angles. I debated about posting this because I acted like a total ass last night, but here goes.
> 
> After reading through all of this and thinking about things, I did something that I hadn't done in a long time. I got out a bottle and proceeded to get liquored up last night.
> 
> I spent a lot of yesterday with the chainsaw doing some tree clean-up work on the property that I've been putting off (we live on 15 acres). Nothing like good ol' manual labor, there's a lot of time for thinking. Well, I was tired last night and it was my intention to peacefully watch zombie movies on Netflix in an effort to get my "man card" back after seeing all of the LMN crap I've watched lately. I don't mean to be flip but I'm trying to maintain a sense of humor. Anyhow...
> 
> After I'd had several strong drinks, my wife comes into the room, kisses my bald head (I shave it), and asked if I would be willing to go to a church couple's retreat next month. She has asked before and I've only said that I'd think about it. Keep in mind that we know a lot of people who are going and it's important to her for us to go. The conversation went something like this:
> 
> Me: No.
> Her: Why not?
> Me: Because I don't want to go.
> Her: Why?
> Me: I'll tell you what. I'll go if you promise me something.
> Her: What?
> Me: That while we're there you'll f**k me like you mean it.
> 
> Of course, I have no intention of going. I only said that to provoke a response.
> 
> She didn't know what to say, then ran off to the bedroom, shut and locked the door, and started crying. I couldn't leave well enough alone, so I stood outside the door and said "You know, I'm outta here when *our son* is gone and I'm going to get laid somewhere, maybe Vegas. You can take that to the bank." Then I went back to watching TV, thought about posting here but was really tired, then fell asleep in my recliner. When I woke up this morning, she was gone. I just found out she's at her mom's house.
> 
> Well, there you have it.


Tact sir....tact!


----------



## MEM2020

Cromer,

I give you credit for being honest about what transpired. 

As to your delivery style - well no one can accuse you of taking the band aid off slowly. 






Cromer said:


> Let me start by saying again I appreciate all of your comments and input. They have been very helpful in getting me to see things from several different angles. I debated about posting this because I acted like a total ass last night, but here goes.
> 
> After reading through all of this and thinking about things, I did something that I hadn't done in a long time. I got out a bottle and proceeded to get liquored up last night.
> 
> I spent a lot of yesterday with the chainsaw doing some tree clean-up work on the property that I've been putting off (we live on 15 acres). Nothing like good ol' manual labor, there's a lot of time for thinking. Well, I was tired last night and it was my intention to peacefully watch zombie movies on Netflix in an effort to get my "man card" back after seeing all of the LMN crap I've watched lately. I don't mean to be flip but I'm trying to maintain a sense of humor. Anyhow...
> 
> After I'd had several strong drinks, my wife comes into the room, kisses my bald head (I shave it), and asked if I would be willing to go to a church couple's retreat next month. She has asked before and I've only said that I'd think about it. Keep in mind that we know a lot of people who are going and it's important to her for us to go. The conversation went something like this:
> 
> Me: No.
> Her: Why not?
> Me: Because I don't want to go.
> Her: Why?
> Me: I'll tell you what. I'll go if you promise me something.
> Her: What?
> Me: That while we're there you'll f**k me like you mean it.
> 
> Of course, I have no intention of going. I only said that to provoke a response.
> 
> She didn't know what to say, then ran off to the bedroom, shut and locked the door, and started crying. I couldn't leave well enough alone, so I stood outside the door and said "You know, I'm outta here when *our son* is gone and I'm going to get laid somewhere, maybe Vegas. You can take that to the bank." Then I went back to watching TV, thought about posting here but was really tired, then fell asleep in my recliner. When I woke up this morning, she was gone. I just found out she's at her mom's house.
> 
> Well, there you have it.


----------



## 2&out

You call that messing up ? LOL. Totally Mickey Mouse ! No worries. This could be GREAT ! Don't contact her AND HOPE SHE STAYS at her Mom's. Do you have the D papers ready ? If you have some hopes of keeping the house and want to protect yourself, NOW is the time !!! FILE ! And establish residence of the house. 

Divorce is the pinnacle of nice guys finish last. Don't. Take the bull by the horns and protect your assets and future as best possible. Don't worry about her - your going to be helping/paying her plenty for years to come. DO NOT TOUCH HER.


----------



## wilson

I'm guessing that one of the reasons you don't want to go to the couples retreat is that you don't want to pretend you have a perfect marriage. The point of a couple's retreat is to celebrate being married, but your marriage is a fraud. I'm sure you'd feel like a phony pretending everything was great in your marriage.


----------



## musicftw07

I'm going to go against the grain and say that I don't have any issues with how Cromer spoke to his wife.

Ten years of no sex, of being rejected, of no intimacy... In my opinion, she got off easy.

I wouldn't apologize. I would be absolutely silent. She KNOWS it's an issue and has done nothing to correct it. What other possible outcome could she have expected?

That's not to say I'd verbally hit her with both barrels again. Cold, calm, and detached from here on out, even if she brings it up.

But I agree with another poster... He finally spoke from his heart. I think that needed to happen in order for OP to start the path down finding his own happiness again.


----------



## Satya

I also feel that sometimes you just have to let it out.
Sure, your delivery could have used more tact as one poster put it, but your filters were down at the time due to the alcohol.
Next time, I hope that you will not feel you need liquid courage to be honest.

I agree with @farsidejunky 's comment - you should apologize for your delivery, not for the content. The content was your truth.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

He gave up some of the high ground when he turned it into a Vegas-style quest for sex. It was never about that. He loved her and craved intimacy and she had no interest in supporting him. She was neither a wife, nor a friend for the past 10 years. That's what she needs to understand. NOT that men just want sex and get mad when they don't get it. Help her understand her shortcomings so that she can have healthier relationships in the future. 

I can understand how the idea of going on a couples' retreat and watching a hundred loving wives affectionately hanging on their husbands would be one hell of a way to spend a weekend. What was she thinking? Does she know what couples do when the lights go out?


----------



## MrRight

I have little doubt that had Cromer not come onto this board and had a shed load of advice etc - his wife would now be sleeping peacefully by his side - back turned of course - but she would be there - looking forward to the Christian retreat weekend.

There would have been no liquor, no zombie films and no drunken explosion of emotion at the bedroom door with a woman inside sobbing into a duvet.

I think we should all bear in mind that our virtual world comments, however well meant, can lead to irreversible real world dramas.


----------



## Don't Panic

"She didn't know what to say, then ran off to the bedroom, shut and locked the door, and started crying. I couldn't leave well enough alone, so I stood outside the door and said "You know, I'm outta here when *our son* is gone and I'm going to get laid somewhere, maybe Vegas. You can take that to the bank." Then I went back to watching TV, thought about posting here but was really tired, then fell asleep in my recliner. When I woke up this morning, she was gone. I just found out she's at her mom's house."

Well we've busted through the barrier of "polite lies"....yikes....

Lay off the booze. Your conversation was certainly justified, right up to "I'll go if you'll **** me like you mean it." Women respond to overt, confident, strength. That comment would have been exactly that (albeit slightly crude) had you not been drunk. 

Your response to her crying in the bathroom may set your progress back considerably. No more alcohol. Doesn't really mesh with chainsaws anyway.


----------



## Yeswecan

wilson said:


> I'm guessing that one of the reasons you don't want to go to the couples retreat is that you don't want to pretend you have a perfect marriage. The point of a couple's retreat is to celebrate being married, but your marriage is a fraud. I'm sure you'd feel like a phony pretending everything was great in your marriage.


So sex is very lacking in the marriage it is a fraud? By that logic everyone's marriage is a fraud because you will not find one that encompasses every aspect of a marriage. There will always be something missing.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I also think this went over just fine. Sure, it was a little on the harsh side as far as his wife's perspective, and since he knew she thought there was nothing wrong his lashing out in this way was unfair.

But at the same time, if there is ANY chance that he and his wife will turn this around, it almost HAD to start that way. He had his chance to blow off all those years of anger and resentment in that one outburst he said to her, and he did it. So NOW - again if there's any chance of reconciliation - his wife is finally aware of his state of anger and resentment. And she needs to be aware of just how close he is to being out the door. If he WASN'T that angry and resentful about it, how would she ever understand it? She would think he had gone mad or was just having a mid life crisis if he had presented her with a speech and D papers when the last kid left. She would never have seen her part in it.

Not that she will now but there is a CHANCE she will because the OP finally showed his hand. His real hand, no the one he was bluffing with all these years.

Going forward...this could go in a totally different direction. She might just accept the D with no further discussion about it. I think that would be a saving grace for the OP.

Or....she will try to get family and church involved and get them all on her side. To me this is to be expected, even though I still think it was a good thing that the OP blew his top like that. And if the OP wants to join in any of the discussion that will be had about his marriage, I suggest that he do what a previous poster suggested and just tell any one who comes from her side to "talk some sense into him" the truth: we haven't had sex in over 10 years, and yes, I lost my composure that night and blew up on her....but I meant what I said and I am done.

From there, his wife will be left with no options other than facing the truth. And again, she might take the easy escape, just to NOT have to face it.


----------



## wilson

Yeswecan said:


> So sex is very lacking in the marriage it is a fraud? By that logic everyone's marriage is a fraud because you will not find one that encompasses every aspect of a marriage. There will always be something missing.


No. Not all aspects are critical aspects to a marriage. Going to the game together? Not a critical aspect. Sex? A critical aspect. Liking pizza? Not a critical aspect. Companionship? A critical aspect. 

If two people decide that sex isn't important and get married, then great! But if one person decides that sex is no longer going to be part of the marriage, then they don't have what most people would think of as a marriage. I would consider that a marriage in name only.


----------



## Yeswecan

Faithful Wife:



> He had his chance to blow off all those years of anger and resentment in that one outburst


Outbursts are never constructive.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Her reaction is telling..... the fact that her hb wanted her to **** him like she meant it sent her crying to the bathroom says she either has a pathological issue with sex or the thought of sex with her husband disgusts her.

Most of us might either say sure, or ok whatever, even if we roll our eyes, depending on how into sex we were with hubby.

That's a over the top reaction in my view, at least from someone who likes her hb enough to go on a church retreat.

My ex actually said that to me, but I couldn't stand him and certainly didn't want to go on retreats with him. Suffice to say I did not cry in the bathroom.....i told him to **** off.

OP, which one is it in your view? Issues with sex or issues with you?

She knows it's been an issue, but was probably comfortable with the status quo.

I agree that laying off the booze is a good idea..... while your message is valid the Vegas thing was low. Threatening to get it elsewhere results in exactly zero probably of intimate, willing sex.

And it makes you look low, which I don't think you deserve.


----------



## Yeswecan

wilson said:


> No. Not all aspects are critical aspects to a marriage. Going to the game together? Not a critical aspect. Sex? A critical aspect. Liking pizza? Not a critical aspect. Companionship? A critical aspect.
> 
> If two people decide that sex isn't important and get married, then great! But if one person decides that sex is no longer going to be part of the marriage, then they don't have what most people would think of as a marriage. I would consider that a marriage in name only.


Other than food items and game....what in your mind are the critical aspects of a marriage?


----------



## farsidejunky

Yeswecan said:


> Other than food items and game....what in your mind are the critical aspects of a marriage?


Whatever they are to each person in the marriage.


----------



## Yeswecan

lifeistooshort said:


> Her reaction is telling..... the fact that her hb wanted her to **** him like she meant it sent her crying to the bathroom says she either has a pathological issue with sex or the thought of sex with her husband disgusts her.
> 
> Most of us might either say sure, or ok whatever, even if we roll our eyes, depending on how into sex we were with hubby.
> 
> That's a over the top reaction in my view, at least from someone who likes her hb enough to go on a church retreat.
> 
> My ex actually said that to me, but I couldn't stand him and certainly didn't want to go on retreats with him. Suffice to say I did not cry in the bathroom.....i told him to **** off.
> 
> OP, which one is it in your view? Issues with sex or issues with you?
> 
> She knows it's been an issue, but was probably comfortable with the status quo.
> 
> I agree that laying off the booze is a good idea..... while your message is valid the Vegas thing was low. Threatening to get it elsewhere results in exactly zero probably of intimate, willing sex.
> 
> And it makes you look low, which I don't think you deserve.



Oh I don't know....I can attest to the many times my mother ran to the bedroom crying when my drunken father lashed out similar to Cromer and his drunken outburst. How many people expect to get yelled at for a simple question like a retreat?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I think you did great. It was exactly what she needed to hear. Now, don't call her and if she comes back don't be apologetic. No telling her that what she's done to you all these years is ok. It's not ok. For the record, most men who tell their wives they want them to **** them like they mean it, they run to the bedroom for some screaming fun, not crying.


----------



## Yeswecan

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think you did great. It was exactly what she needed to hear. Now, don't call her and if she comes back don't be apologetic. No telling her that what she's done to you all these years is ok. It's not ok. *For the record,* most men who tell their wives they want them to **** them like they mean it, they run to the bedroom for some screaming fun, not crying.


I don't believe the record....how much of a turn on is a drunken H showing anger about sex?


----------



## MEM2020

Cromer,

Best thing to do now is agree on messaging to the kids. So you might want to write something up and suggest it to her. 

You can go totally innocuous with: 
We've grown apart 

Or a bit more honest with: 
We've had a serious issue for over a decade. Neither of us was determined enough to address it. And so I tolerated that issue so I could participate in raising you - so I could see you every day. But now that you are off to school, there is no reason for me to continue in an unhappy situation. And I am not going to. And were any of you ever to find yourself in a similar situation, I hope you would do the same. That said, your mom is hurting and needs your support. So do the best you can to comfort her, as her primary source of comfort (me) has now become a very acute source of pain. 

They may press you for specifics. I think the safe bet is this: I refuse to say a single unflattering thing about your mother. If you want specifics - you can ask her. She does know why I'm ending the marriage. I will tell you that there is no one else and never has been. Neither of us betrayed the vow to forsake all others. 

-------------
You described your wife as a very determined person. Good chance she is going to stick with a couple themes: 
- I don't want a divorce 
And maybe even play dumb with:
- I don't know why your father is doing this to me (this is a calculated gamble that you are too much of a gentleman to say what's really going on)

If she does either of these - the high road is: Your mom knows exactly why I am divorcing her. It is not my place to share the specifics with you. That is solely up to her. 





Satya said:


> I also feel that sometimes you just have to let it out.
> Sure, your delivery could have used more tact as one poster put it, but your filters were down at the time due to the alcohol.
> Next time, I hope that you will not feel you need liquid courage to be honest.
> 
> I agree with @farsidejunky 's comment - you should apologize for your delivery, not for the content. The content was your truth.


----------



## musicftw07

Yeswecan said:


> Oh I don't know....I can attest to the many times my mother ran to the bedroom crying when my drunken father lashed out similar to Cromer and his drunken outburst. How many people expect to get yelled at for a simple question like a retreat?


How many people expect to have no sexual intimacy from their spouse for a decade while continuing to meet all of their spouses needs and wants?

My impression is that your father was a regular drunk, yes? The OP doesn't seem to fit that category. Apples to oranges.


----------



## bandit.45

Don't sweat it Cromer. You were a volcano ready to erupt. Her asking you to go on a retreat was the height of hypocrisy. 

180 and move towards D.


----------



## Herschel

All I'm saying is...Vegas? I'm in! When we going?

Ok, maybe I'll also say, good for you, don't back down, don't apologize unless she apologizes for the years of sexless marriage.


----------



## 2&out

Don't apologize for being a man. Your fine - stand your ground. If anyone should be apologizing it's her. Run and lock the door and cry when her frustrated husband says some sharp words about not getting and wanting sex. What kind of crap is that ? Just FYI - their are women that would jump you right on the spot for manning up/speaking like that. I'm still trying to figure out what you did wrong.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

By the way, if her mom is worth a damn she'll send her back home with lingerie and some lube after a stern talking to. I can't imagine what the wife said to her mother when she arrived with tears in her eyes. Mom, he wanted me to have SEX!!! Like I MEAN it!!! sniff sniff. Why is he being so mean to me??


----------



## MEM2020

Yes,

I am speaking solely as a fellow traveler - not as a mod. 

If I put myself in Cromer's shoes - here's what I see: A wife who has expected me to be celibate for a decade and is now pressing me to go on a couples retreat during which I will be expected to pretend to be one half of a happy couple. That is a toxic mix of selfishness and hypocrisy. 

He's been putting his wife's needs ahead of his own for a long long time now. There's a reason all circuit breakers are amperage rated. 





Yeswecan said:


> I don't believe the record....how much of a turn on is a drunken H showing anger about sex?


----------



## Tatsuhiko

WorkingOnMe said:


> By the way, if her mom is worth a damn she'll send her back home with lingerie and some lube after a stern talking to. I can't imagine what the wife said to her mother when she arrived with tears in her eyes. Mom, he wanted me to have SEX!!! Like I MEAN it!!! sniff sniff. Why is he being so mean to me??


Wishful thinking on your part and mine. Unfortunately her mom is likely the one who raised her to be the "good Christian woman" who never talks about sex, rarely engages in it, and is puzzled years later when she loses her husband. More like "Mom he swore at me and said he was going to be unfaithful."


----------



## naiveonedave

i don't get the angst over his presentation, other than the booze aspect of it. Sometimes the message isn't received if the emotion is taken out of it. It is clear she got the message when she ran to her room. She 'had' to know this boom was coming or at least could come at any moment.

I really don't see his behavior as bad. He has been abused in this M by the lack of intimacy. Typically your wedding vows (and the bible clearly for us christians in the audience), that sex is expected in a marriage and if you are not willing, at all, to fulfill that part of it, the M is somewhat of a sham.

I wish the OP the best, he has earned it.


----------



## musicftw07

Tatsuhiko said:


> Wishful thinking on your part and mine. Unfortunately her mom is likely the one who raised her to be the "good Christian woman" who never talks about sex, rarely engages in it, and is puzzled years later when she loses her husband. More like "Mom he swore at me and said he was going to be unfaithful."


^^^ This. Unfortunately.

I don't see how the OP will avoid being "the bad guy" to his W's family. Not because of him, but because blood is thicker than water. It's to be expected, really. You might get some empathy from your FIL in private, but I wouldn't expect any publicly.

OP, don't let it bother or deter you. You can't make everyone happy, and in the end, what her family thinks is irrelevant. Be true to yourself, love your children, and treat your W fairly in divorce. Take the high road. Trust me, you'll feel better for doing it even if they don't give you credit for it.


----------



## Cromer

For the record, that bottle of Jack had been sitting for so long the box was dusty. It was a Christmas gift from a couple of years ago with a couple of custom tumblers. I rarely have anything to drink unless it's the beer or two with friends or the occasional glass of wine with a good steak. I'm sure that I was a bit dehydrated which never helps.

- I regret being drunk when I said it, but don't regret saying it. Yes, the Vegas thing was crude but it's honest. I've been thinking about a trip to Vegas with my soon-to-be roomie friend this fall.

- I didn't want nor expect to get "anything physical" from her. Without giving TMI, the "**** me like you mean it" line was something SHE would say to ME way back in the day. I knew it would be an emotional hammer when I said it, and it was meant that way. Her crying about it was not a surprise to me.

- I had been avoiding the phone but it's blowing up with texts. Her sister wants to talk to me. Geez.

- Our son was asleep when it happened, and a war wouldn't wake him up. I didn't yell anyway, just used a normal tone of voice. My wife going to her mom's is not unusual so he has no clue, thank God.

- I didn't want to go to the retreat because I'm SICK of pretending, plus it's around the time I'm planning to leave.

As much as she's known this was an issue in the past, I'm sure she thought it'd gone way since I haven't mentioned it in so long. Please understand that I just gave up trying to do anything about it and let it rest. Yes, I'm an enabler but I have no regrets about being here for the kids.

At this point, I'm ready to leave ALL of this behind and just let her deal with the house, the stuff, etc. How much and how long I have to pay her doesn't matter to me.


----------



## bandit.45

Tatsuhiko said:


> Wishful thinking on your part and mine. Unfortunately her mom is likely the one who raised her to be the "good Christian woman" who never talks about sex, rarely engages in it, and is puzzled years later when she loses her husband. More like "Mom he swore at me and said he was going to be unfaithful."


Yep. 

And it is usually these sweet little churchified Christian girls who end up cheating on their husbands and acting like sex crazed, porn star hose queens with their APs.


----------



## bandit.45

Cromer said:


> For the record, that bottle of Jack had been sitting for so long the box was dusty. It was a Christmas gift from a couple of years ago with a couple of custom tumblers. I rarely have anything to drink unless it's the beer or two with friends or the occasional glass of wine with a good steak. I'm sure that I was a bit dehydrated which never helps.
> 
> - I regret being drunk when I said it, but don't regret saying it. Yes, the Vegas thing was crude but it's honest. I've been thinking about a trip to Vegas with my soon-to-be roomie friend this fall.
> 
> - I didn't want nor expect to get "anything physical" from her. Without giving TMI, the "**** me like you mean it" line was something SHE would say to ME way back in the day. I knew it would be an emotional hammer when I said it, and it was meant that way. Her crying about it was not a surprise to me.
> 
> - I had been avoiding the phone but it's blowing up with texts. Her sister wants to talk to me. Geez.
> 
> - Our son was asleep when it happened, and a war wouldn't wake him up. I didn't yell anyway, just used a normal tone of voice. My wife going to her mom's is not unusual so he has no clue, thank God.
> 
> - I didn't want to go to the retreat because I'm SICK of pretending, plus it's around the time I'm planning to leave.
> 
> As much as she's known this was an issue in the past, I'm sure she thought it'd gone way since I haven't mentioned it in so long. Please understand that I just gave up trying to do anything about it and let it rest. Yes, I'm an enabler but I have no regrets about being here for the kids.
> 
> At this point, I'm ready to leave ALL of this behind and just let her deal with the house, the stuff, etc. How much and how long I have to pay her doesn't matter to me.


Tell her you will go to Vegas on the same flight.

Once she is there she can go to the retreat and pray and sing praise songs and bask in the Holy Spirit and tell everyone what a wonderful marriage she has. 

You duck out and head up to Crystal, NV. There is a well-known establishment up there full of some very lovely, very clean, state-certified professional women who will be more than happy to relieve all your stress that has been building up for ten years.


----------



## Yeswecan

MEM2020 said:


> Yes,
> 
> I am speaking solely as a fellow traveler - not as a mod.
> 
> If I put myself in Cromer's shoes - here's what I see: A wife who has expected me to be celibate for a decade and is now pressing me to go on a couples retreat during which I will be expected to pretend to be one half of a happy couple. That is a toxic mix of selfishness and hypocrisy.
> 
> He's been putting his wife's needs ahead of his own for a long long time now. There's a reason all circuit breakers are amperage rated.


But, we are talking a person here and how things should be approached. The alcohol appears to be the driver of the outburst and also emboldened Cromer to speak out.


----------



## farsidejunky

Cromer said:


> For the record, that bottle of Jack had been sitting for so long the box was dusty. It was a Christmas gift from a couple of years ago with a couple of custom tumblers. I rarely have anything to drink unless it's the beer or two with friends or the occasional glass of wine with a good steak. I'm sure that I was a bit dehydrated which never helps.
> 
> - I regret being drunk when I said it, but don't regret saying it. Yes, the Vegas thing was crude but it's honest. I've been thinking about a trip to Vegas with my soon-to-be roomie friend this fall.
> 
> - I didn't want nor expect to get "anything physical" from her. Without giving TMI, the "**** me like you mean it" line was something SHE would say to ME way back in the day. I knew it would be an emotional hammer when I said it, and it was meant that way. Her crying about it was not a surprise to me.
> 
> - I had been avoiding the phone but it's blowing up with texts. Her sister wants to talk to me. Geez.
> 
> - Our son was asleep when it happened, and a war wouldn't wake him up. I didn't yell anyway, just used a normal tone of voice. My wife going to her mom's is not unusual so he has no clue, thank God.
> 
> - I didn't want to go to the retreat because I'm SICK of pretending, plus it's around the time I'm planning to leave.
> 
> As much as she's known this was an issue in the past, I'm sure she thought it'd gone way since I haven't mentioned it in so long. Please understand that I just gave up trying to do anything about it and let it rest. Yes, I'm an enabler but I have no regrets about being here for the kids.
> 
> At this point, I'm ready to leave ALL of this behind and just let her deal with the house, the stuff, etc. How much and how long I have to pay her doesn't matter to me.


Hold firm, Cromer.

Your conversation, while painful, will be a moment on which you reflect favorably five years from now; the moment that you declared you were mad as hell and you weren't going to take it anymore.


----------



## Yeswecan

musicftw07 said:


> How many people expect to have no sexual intimacy from their spouse for a decade while continuing to meet all of their spouses needs and wants?
> 
> My impression is that your father was a regular drunk, yes? The OP doesn't seem to fit that category. Apples to oranges.


You side step the issue at hand. Yelling. Aggressive yelling is never welcome for anyone. No sexual contact does not afford one the right to yell at the top of their lungs. 

You assume to much about the OP and drinking.


----------



## tropicalbeachiwish

bandit.45 said:


> Tell her you will go to Vegas on the same flight.
> 
> Once she is there she can go to the retreat and pray and sing praise songs and bask in the Holy Spirit and tell everyone what a wonderful marriage she has.
> 
> You duck out and head up to Crystal, NV. There is a well-known establishment up there full of some very lovely, very clean, state-certified professional women who will be more than happy to relieve all your stress that has been building up for ten years.


I think the retreat & Vegas are two completely different trips.


----------



## Yeswecan

WorkingOnMe said:


> By the way, if her mom is worth a damn she'll send her back home with lingerie and some lube after a stern talking to. I can't imagine what the wife said to her mother when she arrived with tears in her eyes. Mom, he wanted me to have SEX!!! Like I MEAN it!!! sniff sniff. Why is he being so mean to me??


I would hope her mother would have asked why her daughter is not having sex with her H. Then work to resolve the issue that has caused this.


----------



## MEM2020

Same message to sister, mother in law etc. 

Your sister/daughter knows why I am divorcing her. If she wants to share that with you, she will. If not, that's ok also. But I am not going to get guilt tripped by people unsighted as to the actual state of our soon to be ex marriage. 

If your sister tells you what has been going on for the last ten plus years - and you still want to talk to me that's perfectly fine. But you are going to need to begin the conversation by confirming to me that you know why I'm doing this. 

I am not going to play games here. If your sister swears she really doesn't know, I'll tell you what, I will send her a two sentence email repeating what I said to her last night. I guarantee she won't share it with you. Because it is very important to her to paint me as the bad guy. And once you understand the situation I won't seem so bad anymore. 





Cromer said:


> For the record, that bottle of Jack had been sitting for so long the box was dusty. It was a Christmas gift from a couple of years ago with a couple of custom tumblers. I rarely have anything to drink unless it's the beer or two with friends or the occasional glass of wine with a good steak. I'm sure that I was a bit dehydrated which never helps.
> 
> - I regret being drunk when I said it, but don't regret saying it. Yes, the Vegas thing was crude but it's honest. I've been thinking about a trip to Vegas with my soon-to-be roomie friend this fall.
> 
> - I didn't want nor expect to get "anything physical" from her. Without giving TMI, the "**** me like you mean it" line was something SHE would say to ME way back in the day. I knew it would be an emotional hammer when I said it, and it was meant that way. Her crying about it was not a surprise to me.
> 
> - I had been avoiding the phone but it's blowing up with texts. Her sister wants to talk to me. Geez.
> 
> - Our son was asleep when it happened, and a war wouldn't wake him up. I didn't yell anyway, just used a normal tone of voice. My wife going to her mom's is not unusual so he has no clue, thank God.
> 
> - I didn't want to go to the retreat because I'm SICK of pretending, plus it's around the time I'm planning to leave.
> 
> As much as she's known this was an issue in the past, I'm sure she thought it'd gone way since I haven't mentioned it in so long. Please understand that I just gave up trying to do anything about it and let it rest. Yes, I'm an enabler but I have no regrets about being here for the kids.
> 
> At this point, I'm ready to leave ALL of this behind and just let her deal with the house, the stuff, etc. How much and how long I have to pay her doesn't matter to me.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> For the record, that bottle of Jack had been sitting for so long the box was dusty. It was a Christmas gift from a couple of years ago with a couple of custom tumblers. I rarely have anything to drink unless it's the beer or two with friends or the occasional glass of wine with a good steak. I'm sure that I was a bit dehydrated which never helps.
> 
> - I regret being drunk when I said it, but don't regret saying it. Yes, the Vegas thing was crude but it's honest. I've been thinking about a trip to Vegas with my soon-to-be roomie friend this fall.
> 
> - I didn't want nor expect to get "anything physical" from her. Without giving TMI, the "**** me like you mean it" line was something SHE would say to ME way back in the day. I knew it would be an emotional hammer when I said it, and it was meant that way. Her crying about it was not a surprise to me.
> 
> - I had been avoiding the phone but it's blowing up with texts. Her sister wants to talk to me. Geez.
> 
> - Our son was asleep when it happened, and a war wouldn't wake him up. I didn't yell anyway, just used a normal tone of voice. My wife going to her mom's is not unusual so he has no clue, thank God.
> 
> - I didn't want to go to the retreat because I'm SICK of pretending, plus it's around the time I'm planning to leave.
> 
> As much as she's known this was an issue in the past, I'm sure she thought it'd gone way since I haven't mentioned it in so long. Please understand that I just gave up trying to do anything about it and let it rest. Yes, I'm an enabler but I have no regrets about being here for the kids.
> 
> At this point, I'm ready to leave ALL of this behind and just let her deal with the house, the stuff, etc. How much and how long I have to pay her doesn't matter to me.


It's unfortunate because you lashing out can and probably will be used to obfuscate the real issues. But it is what it is. At this point I would send her a letter apologizing for lashing out, say your feeling in a less emotional manor and attach the divorce papers. Guess it wasn't a good idea to wait.


----------



## Yeswecan

sokillme said:


> *It's unfortunate because you lashing out can and probably will be used to obfuscate the real issues.* But it is what it is. At this point I would send her a letter apologizing for lashing out, say your feeling in a less emotional manor and attach the divorce papers. Guess it wasn't a good idea to wait.


I would agree.


----------



## bandit.45

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> I think the retreat & Vegas are two completely different trips.


Maybe he should just file for D and go to Nevada by himself.


----------



## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> *Are you a Christian?*
> 
> Edit to add: And please do not ask her to come home. Let her stay with her mommy.


Yes, but she is far more into the goings on at church. It's her social thing.


----------



## farsidejunky

Cromer said:


> Yes, but she is far more into the goings on at church. It's her social thing.


Which is why she wanted you on the retreat.


----------



## Cromer

MrRight said:


> And zombie films are not the best way to inject testosterone - try High Noon, or Shane.


You, my friend, must not have seen _*MILFS vs. Zombies*_ (on Amazon Prime atm).


----------



## Cromer

farsidejunky said:


> Which is why she wanted you on the retreat.


Yep. Ironically one of the seminars in the program is "Intimacy in the Christian Marriage." NO WAY I was sitting in on that one.


----------



## farsidejunky

Appearances are that she needs to...keep up appearances. How important is image to her?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Cromer said:


> Yep. Ironically one of the seminars in the program is "Intimacy in the Christian Marriage." NO WAY I was sitting in on that one.


Send her pastor a link to this thread.


----------



## tropicalbeachiwish

Cromer said:


> Yep. Ironically one of the seminars in the program is "Intimacy in the Christian Marriage."


You've got to be kidding! Unbelievable.


----------



## Cromer

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> You've got to be kidding! Unbelievable.


Not only that, but the facilitators are a married couple we've known for years and spend a lot of time around.


----------



## sokillme

Tatsuhiko said:


> Wishful thinking on your part and mine. Unfortunately her mom is likely the one who raised her to be the "good Christian woman" who never talks about sex, rarely engages in it, and is puzzled years later when she loses her husband. More like "Mom he swore at me and said he was going to be unfaithful."


In the thread they had good sex at one point. I think this points more to her own issues maybe with her getting older. Postmenopausal an or body issues. It's way too late now though, it needed to be address in the first year or two. Water under the bridge. Again this thread is a tragedy.


----------



## Yeswecan

Cromer said:


> Yep. Ironically one of the seminars in the program is "Intimacy in the Christian Marriage." NO WAY I was sitting in on that one.


Holy crap...that is really something. If I may ask, your W has sat through these classes/programs in the past 10 years and not taken notes? 

Honestly, there is more going on inside your W head then anyone my know.


----------



## Elizabeth001

Yeswecan said:


> You side step the issue at hand. Yelling. Aggressive yelling is never welcome for anyone. No sexual contact does not afford one the right to yell at the top of their lungs.
> 
> 
> 
> You assume to much about the OP and drinking.




He said he wasn't yelling. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Yeswecan

Cromer said:


> Not only that, but the facilitators are a married couple we've known for years and spend a lot of time around.



Reminds me of a program in the UK titled, "Keeping Up Appearances".


----------



## Elizabeth001

Yeswecan said:


> But, we are talking a person here and how things should be approached. The alcohol appears to be the driver of the outburst and also emboldened Cromer to speak out.




That's why they call it "liquid courage". 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Yeswecan

Elizabeth001 said:


> He said he wasn't yelling.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not in the initial updated past. Outburst.


----------



## Yeswecan

Elizabeth001 said:


> That's why they call it "liquid courage".
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It appears Cromer needed it.


----------



## Elizabeth001

Yeswecan said:


> It appears Cromer needed it.




Perhaps. I think that's why some people are saying the incident, although not in good taste, might have been a good thing. At least the ball is rolling. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bandit.45

Yeswecan said:


> Holy crap...that is really something. If I may ask, your W has sat through these classes/programs in the past 10 years and not taken notes?
> 
> Honestly, there is more going on inside your W head then anyone my know.


I went to a couple of these seminars waaaay back a long time ago. Sex never comes up as a topic. Bible study, tithing, daily prayer together....that is what they talk about. Sexual responsibility is never broached. They also preach that since the husband is the spiritual head of the family, whatever his wife does is his ultimately his responsibility, because if he had been a more Godly man and a better leader, she would have never had reason to stray.


----------



## Yeswecan

bandit.45 said:


> I went to a couple of these seminars waaaay back a long time ago. Sex never comes up as a topic. Bible study, tithing, daily prayer together....that is what they talk about. Sexual responsibility is never broached. They also preach that since the husband is the spiritual head of the family, whatever his wife does is his ultimately his responsibility, because if he had been a more Godly man and a better leader, she would have never had reason to stray.


Our church paster spent an entire service talking about sex in marriage with associated flying the freak flag. Kids were excused. Sex and freak flag are an integral part of keeping most from straying(some do anyway). We can throw in the Biblical stuff if we want. 

Cromer paid his dues certainly. Just wish he approached it with be secretive and held off the alcohol. But what's done is done.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Tatsuhiko said:


> Wishful thinking on your part and mine. Unfortunately her mom is likely the one who raised her to be the "good Christian woman" who never talks about sex, rarely engages in it, and is puzzled years later when she loses her husband. More like "Mom he swore at me and said he was going to be unfaithful."


Mom may not be aware that her daughter hasn't had sex with her hb in 10 years.

Religious types are often big on the wifely duty thing.


----------



## Yeswecan

Elizabeth001 said:


> Perhaps. I think that's why some people are saying the incident, although not in good taste, might have been a good thing. At least the ball is rolling.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cat's out of the bag. 

For me, I hope there is some shred of continuing the marriage and allowing cromer's W to correct this. The reason I say this is it does not appear the no sex was done in malice. Something shut this woman off 10 years ago. What was it?


----------



## wilson

Cromer, I know you have everything planned for the future, but you may want to see how things play out with her. There's a chance that a switch has been flipped in her. Generally, people only make significant personal changes when they are hit with a major shock--and this was a doozie! There is a possibility she could have a real personality change because of this. It's possible that the shock will reactivate her desire for true intimacy.

Think about your dream scenario for reconciliation--you've got nothing to lose. If she comes back humble, remorseful, regretful, and wanting to work it out, let her know what you expect and that you won't let it slide again. Of course, if she comes back with a bunch of excuses about how it's all your fault, then you know what you have to do.


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## 3Xnocharm

My suggestion would be dont talk to the sister. Your wife can fill her in on details, and you dont need her coming at you trying to suck you into glossing over this. Also, I know you were wanting to wait for your son to get through school, but you may want to go ahead and move forward, as now she is tipped off and may very well start initiating things on her own and throw a wrench into the plans you've been laying out. 

I agree with those who say her reaction was childish and over the top, running off crying and closing herself in. Sheesh. You may even need to be prepared for a pathetic offer of sex, which I hope to hell you turn down should that happen.


----------



## 2&out

No sex for years ? A Jack bottle with dust on it ? 401...does not compute... I think the real problem has been discovered.  . lol

Dust on a Jack bottle... What ? Really ? Is that possible ?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Yeswecan said:


> Cat's out of the bag.
> 
> For me, I hope there is some shred of continuing the marriage and allowing cromer's W to correct this. The reason I say this is it does not appear the no sex was done in malice. Something shut this woman off 10 years ago. What was it?


He's done, let it go.


----------



## sokillme

bandit.45 said:


> I went to a couple of these seminars waaaay back a long time ago. Sex never comes up as a topic. Bible study, tithing, daily prayer together....that is what they talk about. Sexual responsibility is never broached. They also preach that since the husband is the spiritual head of the family, whatever his wife does is his ultimately his responsibility, because if he had been a more Godly man and a better leader, she would have never had reason to stray.


This has actually been a big topic in Christian churches in recent years.


----------



## Elizabeth001

Yeswecan said:


> Cat's out of the bag.
> 
> 
> 
> For me, I hope there is some shred of continuing the marriage and allowing cromer's W to correct this. The reason I say this is it does not appear the no sex was done in malice. Something shut this woman off 10 years ago. What was it?




Can't like this. The "whys" aren't important anymore. That ship sailed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Yeswecan

3Xnocharm said:


> He's done, let it go.


Nope.


----------



## sokillme

3Xnocharm said:


> He's done, let it go.


Agreed when you change your feelings for your spouse into those of a sibling it's almost impossible to switch the switch back on.


----------



## sokillme

Yeswecan said:


> Nope.


Is your advice for OP or just because you want the happy ending, no pun intended...

whoops.


----------



## Phil Anders

Cromer's new anthem?

"Well I hadn't intended to bend the rules,
but whiskey don't make liars; it just makes fools.
So I didn't mean to say it,
but I meant what I said."

James McMurtry--"Too Long in the Wasteland"


----------



## Tatsuhiko

sokillme said:


> In the thread they had good sex at one point. I think this points more to her own issues maybe with her getting older. Postmenopausal an or body issues. It's way too late now though, it needed to be address in the first year or two. Water under the bridge. Again this thread is a tragedy.


There's definitely a loss of desire. I get that part. It's hormonal and probably natural with age. 

But I'll tell you this: I have no desire to clean the shower drain right now and pull out rotting, soapy hairs. However, if my wife came to me and told me it was very important to her that I clean the shower drain on a regular basis and that it hurt her when I didn't do it, I'd take the 10 minutes out of my schedule to make sure I cleaned it on regular basis. Why? Because my wife's needs are important to me, and I expect that my needs are important to her. I don't often question those needs when she expresses them. I just respect them and comply. But I expect the same from her. 

The real tragedy is when spouses cannot meet each other's needs, even when sexual desire is absent. This component is the sickness to dead bedrooms that goes beyond a simple lack of desire. There's always some other cause: religious issues, passive-aggressive resentment, control, etc. Is it THAT hard to give intimacy to the one you ostensibly love? No. 

We'll probably never know what Mrs. Cromer's issue was. We can only hope that Mr. Cromer goes on to have a wonderful, fulfilling life.


----------



## bandit.45

sokillme said:


> This has actually been a big topic in Christian churches in recent years.


I wouldn't know. I gave up church for lent.


----------



## Yeswecan

sokillme said:


> Is your advice for OP or just because you want the happy ending, no pun intended...
> 
> whoops.


I would like to see the W rectify the problem. 10 years ago the W shut off sex like a light switch. What precipitated that decision? 

Is it fair for cromer to take 10 years and allow the W to build this fantasy marriage then drop the gauntlet? Cromer did say he was an enabler. 

I would hope this could be worked out by both. Let me say I had a 20 year marriage that was mostly sexless for my W. I screwed up. Sex was way lacking. Once maybe twice a month for an entire 20 years. She forgave and let me correct it. Never been happier. My W has 20 year to cromers 10. Do the math my W has had 10 years sexless. She stayed the course. It worked out for both us in the end.


----------



## SunCMars

Yeswecan said:


> Nope.


----------



## musicftw07

Yeswecan said:


> I would like to see the W rectify the problem. 10 years ago the W shut off sex like a light switch. What precipitated that decision?
> 
> Is it fair for cromer to take 10 years and allow the W to build this fantasy marriage then drop the gauntlet? Cromer did say he was an enabler.
> 
> I would hope this could be worked out by both. Let me say I had a 20 year marriage that was mostly sexless for my W. I screwed up. Sex was way lacking. Once maybe twice a month for an entire 20 years. She forgave and let me correct it. Never been happier. My W has 20 year to cromers 10. Do the math my W has had 10 years sexless. She stayed the course. It worked out for both us in the end.


What YOU would like to see doesn't jive with what the OP wants.

This thread isn't about you. It's about Cromer.


----------



## SunCMars

Tatsuhiko said:


> But I'll tell you this: I have no desire to clean the shower drain right now and pull out rotting, soapy hairs. *However, if my wife came to me and told me it was very important to her that I clean the shower drain on a regular basis and that it hurt her when I didn't do it, I'd take the 10 minutes out of my schedule to make sure I cleaned it on regular basis.* Why? Because my wife's needs are important to me, and I expect that my needs are important to her. I don't often question those needs when she expresses them. I just respect them and comply. But I expect the same from her.


Ah, huh!

Whittle the nag list to zero..then Godly things happen..

The seas part......


----------



## Always Learning

@Cromer

I have been following this with great interest, Although it hasn't been ten years for me I am pretty much where you are or were. 30 year marriage has been largely sexless, no intimacy or affection. I get told I am needy if I try to hug her, there is no passion from her at all anymore. We get a long OK. My youngest is a freshman in college. Our families are intertwined deeply. There is so much to walk away from but I find my self wondering just how much better life would be with someone who wants to be with me.

I admire your resolve to follow through. I have also started planning for a future alone. I have been becoming more independent and starting to get rid of things I do not need. 

I think I would be better off alone than living with some one who has no interest in our relationship.

I wish you well!


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Im glad something worked out for you, but sometimes for some of us, its just too much, then it becomes too late. I can tell you this, when I lost attraction and desire for my XH, there wasnt a damn thing bringing it back EVER. The very thought of his touch repulsed me. No change he could have possibly made would have changed this for me. Cromer has been through his own hell with all of this, and was making plans in the most considerate way he could. Instead of shoving in his face how he needs to continue to give her a chance, how about being supportive and positive for the difficult path he has chosen as best for him?


----------



## Yeswecan

musicftw07 said:


> What YOU would like to see doesn't jive with what the OP wants.
> 
> This thread isn't about you. It's about Cromer.


Thanks for your input. Another member asked me what I would like to see. He got an answer.


----------



## dubsey

Agree with the others regarding the apology: "Sorry how I said what I said. Not sorry for what I said."

Honestly is was probably better it was said this way. Any other way would have been soft and misleading.

IMO, you're doing the honorable thing by walking away. You're leaving before you cheat. It's what every person here wishes their disloyal spouse would have done. You've made your effort, and you're doing it the right way.


----------



## Elizabeth001

SunCMars said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBumgq5yVrA




Cool...but I was hoping for the GIF of beating the dead horse. Does anyone have it?

lol 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme

Yeswecan said:


> Is it fair for cromer to take 10 years and allow the W to build this fantasy marriage then drop the gauntlet? Cromer did say he was an enabler.


You know you are actually blaming the victim here.


----------



## sokillme

Tatsuhiko said:


> There's definitely a loss of desire. I get that part. It's hormonal and probably natural with age.
> 
> But I'll tell you this: I have no desire to clean the shower drain right now and pull out rotting, soapy hairs. However, if my wife came to me and told me it was very important to her that I clean the shower drain on a regular basis and that it hurt her when I didn't do it, I'd take the 10 minutes out of my schedule to make sure I cleaned it on regular basis. Why? Because my wife's needs are important to me, and I expect that my needs are important to her. I don't often question those needs when she expresses them. I just respect them and comply. But I expect the same from her.
> 
> The real tragedy is when spouses cannot meet each other's needs, even when sexual desire is absent. This component is the sickness to dead bedrooms that goes beyond a simple lack of desire. There's always some other cause: religious issues, passive-aggressive resentment, control, etc. Is it THAT hard to give intimacy to the one you ostensibly love? No.
> 
> We'll probably never know what Mrs. Cromer's issue was. We can only hope that Mr. Cromer goes on to have a wonderful, fulfilling life.


I agree, but it's also a tragedy that it was 10 years, and that now it's too late. Also sad that besides that the marriage is good. But then again it's like a sports car with no engine. I hope they both have wonderful lives. Things in life end.


----------



## Steve1000

Yeswecan said:


> Outbursts are never constructive.


They are ugly, but sometimes they can be constructive.


----------



## sokillme

dubsey said:


> IMO, you're doing the honorable thing by walking away. You're leaving before you cheat. It's what every person here wishes their disloyal spouse would have done. You've made your effort, and you're doing it the right way.


:iagree:


----------



## WorkingOnMe

sokillme said:


> You know you are actually blaming the victim here.


No, I don't think so. I don't see any victims here. Neither of them. Maybe in the first year, but he chose to stay all those sexless years. That's on him. It was a sucky choice, kids or sex, but it was still his choice to stay. And he's kept quiet about it. He's no victim. He's not trapped. Like everyone, when the pain of staying is greater than the pain of leaving he'll go...and not one minute before. And keeping his intentions secret was morally wrong and cowardly. But that's how he chose to play it. Quiet deception.

Oh, and none of this is meant to excuse her actions which were equally wrong and already commented on ad nauseam.


----------



## Cynthia

Tatsuhiko said:


> Wishful thinking on your part and mine. Unfortunately her mom is likely the one who raised her to be the "good Christian woman" who never talks about sex, rarely engages in it, and is puzzled years later when she loses her husband. More like "Mom he swore at me and said he was going to be unfaithful."


Some Christians are like this, but so are some secular people. The Bible teaches that sex in marriage is good and important. If Christians aren't practicing that, it's not due to their christianity. It's due to something else.



Yeswecan said:


> Outbursts are never constructive.


This literally made me laugh out loud. I heartily disagree. Sometimes an outburst is the only thing that will get someone's attention. I'm not saying to go on and on, but there is a time and a place for an angry outburst. People who regularly have outbursts of anger have a problem, but once in a blue moon over something extremely serious, when someone just isn't getting it. I say absolutely.


----------



## bandit.45

3Xnocharm said:


> Im glad something worked out for you, but sometimes for some of us, its just too much, then it becomes too late. I can tell you this, *when I lost attraction and desire for my XH, there wasnt a damn thing bringing it back EVER*. The very thought of his touch repulsed me. *No change he could have possibly made would have changed this for me.* Cromer has been through his own hell with all of this, and was making plans in the most considerate way he could. Instead of shoving in his face how he needs to continue to give her a chance, how about being supportive and positive for the difficult path he has chosen as best for him?


THIS ^^^^^^^^

3Xnocharm is conveying a hard truth that all guys need to absorb.


----------



## Elizabeth001

bandit.45 said:


> THIS ^^^^^^^^
> 
> 
> 
> 3Xnocharm is conveying a hard truth that all guys need to absorb.




Exactly. I told this to stbx at some point before moving out. The point of no return. They even wrote a song about it. Hehe

ETA: I really thought this came across extremely clear in his very first post and I can't believe people are still suggesting "one more try". 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Edward333

WorkingOnMe said:


> ...he chose to stay all those sexless years. That's on him. It was a sucky choice, kids or sex, but it was still his choice to stay. And he's kept quiet about it. He's no victim. He's not trapped. Like everyone, when the pain of staying is greater than the pain of leaving he'll go...and not one minute before. And keeping his intentions secret was morally wrong and cowardly. But that's how he chose to play it. Quiet deception.


This is nonsense. He tried his best to get his wife to come around and gave her the benefit of the doubt, over and over and over. He stayed in the best interest of his family, but finally reached his breaking point and decided to end things with the best interest of all involved.

Under the circumstances, his wife asking him to attend a couple's retreat after all this had to be extremely frustrating. I don't blame him one bit for his reaction.


----------



## john117

What does the post divorce financial picture look like?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Edward333 said:


> This is nonsense. He tried his best to get his wife to come around and gave her the benefit of the doubt, over and over and over. He stayed in the best interest of his family, but finally reached his breaking point and decided to end things with the best interest of all involved.
> 
> Under the circumstances, his wife asking him to attend a couple's retreat after all this had to be extremely frustrating. I don't blame him one bit for his reaction.


First, your last paragraph: I've already said as much. Nothing in my post has anything to do with whether he was justified last night. I firmly believe that he was.

Second, I get that he stayed for his family and reached his breaking point. What I don't get is how that makes him a victim. Staying or leaving or making a stand was his choice to make and he chose to stay quietly. That doesn't make him a victim. That just makes him a man who chose that path as his priority. Yes, he tried his best and failed. And then did nothing but stay and take it.


----------



## Elizabeth001

WorkingOnMe said:


> First, your last paragraph: I've already said as much. Nothing in my post has anything to do with whether he was justified last night. I firmly believe that he was.
> 
> 
> 
> Second, I get that he stayed for his family and reached his breaking point. What I don't get is how that makes him a victim. Staying or leaving or making a stand was his choice to make and he chose to stay quietly. That doesn't make him a victim. That just makes him a man who chose that path as his priority. Yes, he tried his best and failed. And then did nothing but stay and take it.




I get it. NEITHER of them get to play the victim card. Very valid point. 


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----------



## Cromer

Dang. Who says I'm playing the victim card? 

I made my choice and stand by it for good reason, and I don't regret it. I understood the sacrifice. Our children will NEVER say their father left them. EVER. 

And I'm not cowardly or morally bankrupt.


----------



## sokillme

WorkingOnMe said:


> No, I don't think so. I don't see any victims here. Neither of them. Maybe in the first year, but he chose to stay all those sexless years. That's on him. It was a sucky choice, kids or sex, but it was still his choice to stay. And he's kept quiet about it. He's no victim. He's not trapped. Like everyone, when the pain of staying is greater than the pain of leaving he'll go...and not one minute before. And keeping his intentions secret was morally wrong and cowardly. But that's how he chose to play it. Quiet deception.
> 
> Oh, and none of this is meant to excuse her actions which were equally wrong and already commented on ad nauseam.


Nonsense. First of all you must not have read the post, he has been telling her for years and she has never truly committed to fix it. If she is surprised it is all on her. You guys just want to conventionally ignore that fact to get on OP. And my point was he is the victim if you are going to calling him out for doing nothing wrong, read the contexts of my post please. But again I think you know that you just want to make the wife the victim. So now we are accusing OP, he is playing the victim card? Again nonsense. But I get it white knights are going to white knight.


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> Dang. Who says I'm playing the victim card?
> 
> I made my choice and stand by it for good reason, and I don't regret it. I understood the sacrifice. Our children will NEVER say their father left them. EVER.
> 
> And I'm not cowardly or morally bankrupt.


Nope, you haven't played the victim card. You have owned your decision and now you're ready to move on. I don't see anything cowardly or morally bankrupt about that at all.

Your children have benefited greatly from having you with them throughout their childhoods. An intact family is good for children as long as it's not a stress filled or abusive environment and it sounds like you had a peaceful, loving home. I don't think you'll regret making that choice.

Don't worry if your wife doesn't understand your choice. She probably won't. If she did, things may have been different and she may have tried harder to meet your needs. You seem like the kind of person who would have settled for a little if she was clearly giving it her best effort and showing you that she cared about your needs. But she didn't. If she changes now, it won't be due to your needs, but due to her desire to stay married. Watch out for that. If she suddenly becomes sexually aggressive it is unlikely to last long. Only until she has you back where she wants you and then she'll slide back into complacency.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> Dang. Who says I'm playing the victim card?
> 
> I made my choice and stand by it for good reason, and I don't regret it. I understood the sacrifice. Our children will NEVER say their father left them. EVER.
> 
> And I'm not cowardly or morally bankrupt.


Ignore the white knights OP.

You were more then honorable and did more the most people would.


----------



## Bibi1031

WorkingOnMe said:


> By the way, if her mom is worth a damn she'll send her back home with lingerie and some lube after a stern talking to. I can't imagine what the wife said to her mother when she arrived with tears in her eyes. Mom, he wanted me to have SEX!!! Like I MEAN it!!! sniff sniff. Why is he being so mean to me??


Hell no, she ain't dumb dudes. She is going to tell good ole mom that Cromer is going to Vegas to have sex with prostitutes and will divorce her because he has gone mad. She has no idea why her once loving husband has become this sex crazed monster. She doesn't recognize who he has become. On top of that he has become a drunk too. Oh the webs we spin...sigh.

She will pull the poor me, me, card all the way to court. Take that one to the bank!


----------



## sokillme

Bibi1031 said:


> Hell no, she ain't dumb dudes. She is going to tell good ole mom that Cromer is going to Vegas to have sex with prostitutes and will divorce her because he has gone mad. She has no idea why her once loving husband has become this sex crazed monster. She doesn't recognize who he has become. On top of that he has become a drunk too. Oh the webs we spin...sigh.
> 
> She will pull the poor me, me, card all the way to court. Take that one to the bank!


Yep. Exactly what is going to happen. That's why I wish he hadn't have lost it. But the truth is she knows exactly why, she just can't get over her demons and it will be easier to blame him then herself.


----------



## Bibi1031

sokillme said:


> Yep. Exactly what is going to happen. That's why I wish he hadn't have lost it. But the truth is she knows exactly why, she just can't get over her demons and it will be easier to blame him then herself.


Why of course, if WS can play the blame shifting game, why wouldn't his wife play that card too. She will also minimize the no sex for 10 years thing too, just watch.

I'm sorry Cromer, but she will not admit her faults, especially if she is the type to lie for appearances sake. She will throw you under the bus and come out looking like the lamb to the slaughter kind of gal. It's the Christian thing to do you know...gag me!


----------



## MEM2020

Cromer,
Do you have a plan to answer all the questions and thinly veiled accusations that are going to come your way?

I'm not poking at you - and certainly don't see you as immoral. I'm just thinking it's dangerous to respond on the fly to matters that are likely to produce the red mist. 




Cromer said:


> Dang. Who says I'm playing the victim card?
> 
> I made my choice and stand by it for good reason, and I don't regret it. I understood the sacrifice. Our children will NEVER say their father left them. EVER.
> 
> And I'm not cowardly or morally bankrupt.


----------



## john117

Does it matter what he says in front of the likely kangaroo court? Y'all think they will be anything remotely sympathetic?


----------



## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> Your children have benefited greatly from having you with them throughout their childhoods. An intact family is good for children as long as it's not a stress filled or abusive environment and it sounds like you had a peaceful, loving home. I don't think you'll regret making that choice.


Without going into a long story my upbringing was turbulent, to say the least. Welfare household, no father, men constantly cycling through our home, lived with my grandmother as a teen, lots of abuse, being the fruit of my mother's affair and blaming me for losing the only man she ever truly loved until the day she died (ya, I caused her to cheat), etc, etc, etc.

Well, early on I decided that I would get out of the black hole of a welfare and substance dependent family cycle in which all of them remain mired to this day. I put myself through school and built two successful careers. *I committed to myself that I would always be with my kids.* I wanted the family I never had and tried my best to build it. I would've lived in a van and eaten bean's and franks every day if that's what it took to support them. I have an Eagle Scout, two Gold Award Scouts, all 3d Degree Black Belts (do NOT mess with our daughters, they can shoot too), all National Honor Society, etc. They will have completed college with no debt. They love their mom and dad and have no trouble showing it. I've shown nothing but respect towards their mother.

My life's accomplishment will not be measured in how much I got laid. It's our children. I'm proud of them, proud of the job we've done, and have no regrets.

But I need a change.


----------



## Cromer

MEM2020 said:


> Cromer,
> Do you have a plan to answer all the questions and thinly veiled accusations that are going to come your way?
> 
> I'm not poking at you - and certainly don't see you as immoral. I'm just thinking it's dangerous to respond on the fly to matters that are likely to produce the red mist.


I'm not sure what's going on except I got a mystery text from her sister saying that mom was really pissed at my wife.

I don't want to call her sister right now, she keeps asking.


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> I'm not sure what's going on except I got a mystery text from her sister saying that mom was really pissed at my wife.
> 
> I don't want to call her sister right now, she keeps asking.


Sounds like your wife told her mom the truth and it didn't go over very well.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Interesting. Of course, Mom might just be mad that her daughter didn't stay and work it out, discuss it, etc. Traditionally a woman is supposed to stand by her husband, after all, and not abandon the home because of a minor (LOL) argument. 

Earlier you told us that she was embarrassed by the prospect of anyone knowing the details of your sex life. I wonder if your wife actually felt some shame about the fact that she was denying you intimacy, and was eager to keep this information hidden.


----------



## farsidejunky

Cromer said:


> I'm not sure what's going on except I got a mystery text from her sister saying that mom was really pissed at my wife.
> 
> I don't want to call her sister right now, she keeps asking.


Let the situation come to you.

It either will or it won't, but don't chase it.


----------



## Lloyd Dobler

Bibi1031 said:


> Hell no, she ain't dumb dudes. She is going to tell good ole mom that Cromer is going to Vegas to have sex with prostitutes and will divorce her because he has gone mad. She has no idea why her once loving husband has become this sex crazed monster. She doesn't recognize who he has become. On top of that he has become a drunk too. Oh the webs we spin...sigh.
> 
> She will pull the poor me, me, card all the way to court. Take that one to the bank!


This sounds eerily similar to CopperTop's situation.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I'm not sure what's going on except I got a mystery text from her sister saying that mom was really pissed at my wife.
> 
> I don't want to call her sister right now, she keeps asking.


Steel yourself.


----------



## wmn1

MJJEAN said:


> Others have said they can't believe Mrs Cromer is about to be blindsided because surely she must know how important sexual intimacy is to her husband. I think a LOT of women and men who are LD or NoD truly fail to understand even after it has been explained to them repeatedly. Mrs Cromer likely believes Cromer has "gotten over" the need for sex and is just as content in the marriage as her. In other words, she thinks they have a happy marriage and will be shocked and devastated when she is told there will be a divorce.
> 
> It's kind, caring, and just plain decent to make sure she is financially sound post divorce, but she will need more than money. She will need to be able to accept and heal. @Cromer, have you thought about arranging a few counseling sessions to help you both navigate the end of the marriage?


I agree with this. He speaks about being friends with her afterwards but the way he's stretching this out and how it's going to unfold is just going to make her fight harder over divorce terms and ensure a nasty divorce plus potentially turn his kids against him. 

I am not siding with her but siding with those who feel his strategy is wrong. 

I am sure I am going to catch he11 from the 90% here who are fully in his corner but I feel his resentment for her over the sexless marriage has shattered the compassion he should have to ensure a smooth divorce and leave her in one piece. Some here said it's not his job to do that but his kids will resent him when they see their mom crash and burn hard. 

I have seen couples come back from sexless marriages. 

I do applaud the OP for not cheating and I am curious if for some reason if she hasn't cheated on him.

ALl I am saying is that this thing is not going to end well.


----------



## wmn1

mary35 said:


> In my opinion it sounds like your ship has sailed and your decision is made, and now you are facing the fears of the fallout that is sure to happen when you implement your plan. That's a good thing to do - but no matter how much you plan and think this through - the emotional impact is going to be very intense and far spread - not only for both you and your wife, but also for your kids, and for the extended family and social network. You won't be only blindsiding your wife - but everyone else too because you have not been honest with her or anyone else about your true feelings. You have been playing the part of a happily married man. At least she has been honest with you about her dislike of sex!
> 
> I strongly suggest that you not just drop this bomb that you are ending your marriage and then run!
> 
> Instead, start laying the groundwork by engaging a really good professional to help you navigate this end of the marriage. Line up a good counselor and go talk to them first so that they know what you plan to do and then listen to their advice on how to proceed. It may mean delaying your plan a little longer, but trust me when I say that what you are planning will blindside your wife totally and everyone else too! It would be better that you ease into the plan by at least telling her with the help of the counselor that you are not and have not been as happy with the marriage as she thinks. Then you can explain that you now realize that no sex in your marriage is a deal breaker for you. That you thought you could live with it - but you now realize that you can't. You can explain that you are not offering more chances - as you have traveled that road too many times, and already know where it leads - NoWHERE! You can explain that this is not a threat - that you are not changing your mind. All this can slowly be brought out in the open over several months of counseling and then you can slowly reveal your plan to end the marriage!
> 
> Dropping the bomb and running will just make the fallout 100 times worse! Even if she deserves it - its not the right thing to do - its the cowardly thing to do! And more importantly dropping it and running is going to cause more damage to more people - as she is not the only one that will be blindsided by this behavior - your whole family and friends will also be blindsided. You need to start out by letting everyone see and adjust to the real you first - and stop showing them the fake happily married man that you have pretended to be. Let them adjust to that fact first before you finally try to end the marriage.


I agree with this Mary, it's just sad that some are too shallow to see this.

You are right in what you say


----------



## wmn1

MEM2020 said:


> Mary,
> If he moves out, puts the ball in her court, I'd say there's a 50 percent chance that she gives it her best shot.
> 
> Hey Cromer - you willing to humor me - do a quick little exercise? Just answer the questions below.
> 
> 1. What do you routinely do totally independent of your wife? Weekend away with the guys? Night out playing cards? Etc.
> 2. What do you two have conflict over?
> 3. When was the last time she apologized to you and for what?
> 4. When was the last time she wanted Italian, you wanted Chinese and you said: we're having Chinese - and you had Chinese
> 
> Everybody wants passion, but no one wants conflict, much less combat. You cannot have passion without conflict.
> 
> Nothing inherently bad about conflict. It's just the result of two determined individuals each asserting themselves.
> 
> But simulating peace - when you're actually in a state of war - that my man isn't exactly honest.


on the other side, if he blindsides her, she will possibly go for the jugular in divorce proceedings and the kids will resent him as she is surely going to act the victim and they may fall for it.

If this was as slam dunk as you think, Mem, then why is Comer here in the first place ? It's all black and white. Right ? Not quite ...

And yes, this could be conflict free if he lays it out over time and in a compassionate way. Could doesn't mean WILL, but it could.

Comer stands to lose a lot. Noone is telling him that he's wrong about how he feels. The dissenters are telling him that the way he's going about it is going to be costly and is wrong too. 
I do know someone who had a habit that his wife hated and she played the good wife for 4 years then moved out one day and never looked back. He found through emails she was planning this for ayear and he was so pissed that she wasted ayear of their life that they still fight over custody and bad mouth each other. The divorce was nasty too


----------



## wmn1

bandit.45 said:


> I read a story many years ago on another website, written by the son of a man who did this also. He lived for years in a dud marriage, but he loved his wife and wanted to stay married. He used to handcraft custom made furniture for her...one new piece every year. Beautiful stuff...looked just like real Chippendale. Then around the 35 year mark he found out through a family friend that about ten years prior his wife had been in a LTA with a guy she worked with. He put two and two together and figured out that she had broken up with her OM around the same she stopped being intimate with him. In her own sick way she was witholding sex from him as a way of staying faithful to an OM who had dumped her. He did some sleuthing to confirm this, and once he did he pretty much did the same thing OP is doing. He got everything ready, settled his finances, and then one weekend while she was away visiting their daughter, he packed up his truck and skedaddled. Before going, he finished the last piece of furniture he had built her and set it in the living room for her to see when she got home...some kind of big beautiful wardrobe. Well, when she got home she saw it, and upon opening the doors to look inside found a goodbye letter with his wedding ring sitting on top of it. She got served the D papers a day or two later.
> 
> According to the son she cried for about a day and then went on with her life. She didn't beg her husband to come back. She knew the jig was up.


exactly !!! Bandit. I just brought this up a few posts ago. Did Comer's wife have an affair a while ago ?

Right now, my posts are based on Comer having a right to divorce and walk away but to do so respectfully since he has a wife with LD but loves him and is planning the rest of er life with him. However, if she had ever cheated, like in your example, then I am all about the 'conflict' that Mem talked about and for him to walk out on his own terms period !!

Who knows what the other story is. This is just a tragic story


----------



## john117

Is there ever a good way to divorce a supposedly unsuspecting spouse? 

If you threaten divorce and not follow up or they cave in then you have not addressed the underlying root causes. Which is the whole point of the exercise.


----------



## sokillme

He is not blindsiding her. They have talked about this off and on for years. Again you guys act like she is a child, she is a grown adult. If your spouse tells you over and over, this is a deal breaker to me you can't be blindsided if it turns out to be a deal breaker. 

She is perfectly capable of getting counseling for herself like any other adult. Why are some of you so desperate to see her as helpless?

By the way --



> Did Comer's wife have an affair a while ago ?


Why I said steel yourself. I thought I was being too cynical by bringing up the possibility but what are the chances that that is what the Mom is pissed at.


----------



## MEM2020

Cromer,

This is a guess - but an educated one. Your MIL if she is the 'standard issue' has a few key themes summarized below:
1. First and by far foremost: The quality of the grandchildren you produced (by any measure - exceptional) and their basic starting position in life (degreed and debt free - very nice). 

2. The degree to which you fullfilled your role as provider. 

3. The way you sort of integrated into the family and in a sort of modest way made it clear how different it was than what you grew up with. 

4. The way she saw you treat her daughter. 

So daughter comes home and says a bunch of factual stuff that is also very misleading. And momma asks: But why is he doing this? Ultimately though - whether or not she admits to constructive abandonment - Momma tells her to go home and fix it. And that's why MIL is mad. She knows if her daughter was in the right - she'd be in a hurry to return home and defend her position. 

Hiding is the reflex of the guilty. 

---------
That said - Farside is right - C2 will either come to you or she won't. And depending on her approach you will either reject her or think about what she's offering. 

As for the sister I would not freeze her out. If the two of you have a decent relationship - you can thank her for reaching out to you - but politely tell her that what needs doin needs to be done by you and C2, and just the two of you. 

In the meantime - might consider emailing C2 a suggested plan for what and when you want to inform the kids. Including a short list of expected questions and agreed on answers. 

Right now, she might be hoping you will get lonely and fold. It is her best outcome. 




Cromer said:


> I'm not sure what's going on except I got a mystery text from her sister saying that mom was really pissed at my wife.
> 
> I don't want to call her sister right now, she keeps asking.


----------



## Faithful Wife

wmn1 said:


> I am not siding with her but siding with those who feel his strategy is wrong.
> 
> I am sure I am going to catch he11 from the 90% here who are fully in his corner but I feel his resentment for her over the sexless marriage has shattered the compassion he should have to ensure a smooth divorce and leave her in one piece. Some here said it's not his job to do that but his kids will resent him when they see their mom crash and burn hard.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> ALl I am saying is that this thing is not going to end well.


It might end well. If his W comes to realize that she can't bluff her way out of this one and she can't try to turn all the tables on him....and if the thought of having a real sex life with him makes her cringe (for whatever reason)...she might just be amicable about a divorce.

I do not feel this OP has lost his compassion for her. He loves her. He knows he has enabled this. He still has compassion for her, or he wouldn't have struggled so hard to figure out a way to tell her. Being on TAM made him get in touch with his resentment and anger, and he lashed out. But he may have needed that prod, because trying to figure out a calm way to say it may have just been too much to handle.

This way, with a little conflict, there is at least a sense of relief that his feelings have been shared. It isn't like the Dday night turned into some huge war where the police were called. The one outburst he had after 10 years will blow over eventually and the real issue will either be addressed, or a divorce will be agreed upon.

@Cromer , if it looks like this will be heading toward a divorce sooner than you anticipated, I suggest you just stay calm and forthright throughout it all....and definitely have a conversation with all of your kids individually, you and them one on one. Tell them the truth, but without details. Tell them you have always loved their mother and still do, but that you haven't had sex for over 10 years and that you regret not pushing the issue earlier, but it is what it is, and you can no longer live this way.

That's all they need to know.

Please don't tell them that they were the reason you stayed so long, or at least find a way to buffer that message with your own admission of just being too complacent to cause a bigger stir sooner. Kids (including adult kids) will take a message like that to mean that they were somehow responsible for your decisions. I suggest you don't go into the whole "my childhood was such and such so I promised myself I would never leave my kids" story. Again, that will just make them feel responsible for your decisions. The timing of this isn't that important. For a variety of reasons, right now is when you were able to finally deal with this, so that's all they need to know. 

They will be hurt. They will be angry. Let them talk about their feelings and just absorb it, knowing that eventually, they will feel differently. If you do end up with a quick amicable divorce, eventually they will see your integrity with this whole issue, and ultimately, you want to set an example for them of a man who did his best, had his issues (complacency and maybe co-dependant), loved their mother and them, but ultimately had to do what was best for HIMSELF. This is a powerful message that at first glance may feel is "selfish", but with some 20/20 vision it is the best example we can set for our children.

Your wife, if she is truly incapable of a life that includes sex, will move on quite fine, and you two will most likely end up friendly and loving toward one another. I know that may be hard for you to imagine based on your childhood. But there are many couples who don't "hate" each other after divorce, and who continue to be loving not only for the kids' sake, but simply because they once loved each other.


----------



## lifeistooshort

It is worth considering that his wife might actually remember these last 10 years differently and may honestly not think it was that bad.

Spouses are often accused of rewriting but the fact is that they sometimes have a different view of the marriage. She may have convinced herself that it wasn't really that bad.

OP of course has been keeping track because he's frustrated, but if his wife has been getting her needs met she may genuinely not think it was so bad. 

Or she knew he was unhappy but didn't think it was THAT bad.

So part of the shock could be genuine.

We see this all the time with walk away wives.....husband is genuinely shocked. But then you find out that he knew she was unhappy and just didn't realize it was that bad.

And he usually gets sympathy and told that she's probably cheating, because went else would a wife leave? Particularly if she plots to leave privately, he's told how unfair it is that she didn't make it clear that she was leaving without change.

This isn't that different. Should she have known he was unhappy with no sex? Absolutely.

Did she think it was that bad? Maybe not. 

I still think OP probably needs to move on, but I wanted to offer some alternative thoughts as to where his wife might be mentally. There are many people who think sex is a ridiculous reason to leave an otherwise good marriage. The older I get the more I think it's a lousy idea yippy waste the one life you get on a sexless marriage, but not everyone sees it that way. There was s time when it would be unconscionable to leave your spouse for this reason, and his wife may be of that mindset.

That doesn't make her evil, only a poor match for him.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

lifeistooshort said:


> It is worth considering that his wife might actually remember these last 10 years differently and may honestly not think it was that bad.
> 
> She may have convinced herself that it wasn't really that bad.
> 
> Or she knew he was unhappy but didn't think it was THAT bad.
> 
> Did she think it was that bad? Maybe not.


Therein lies the problem. If she thought it was bad, there might be some common ground from which they could work. Her relative happiness under the exact same circumstances if just proof of how wide is the divide.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Therein lies the problem. If she thought it was bad, there might be some common ground from which they could work. Her relative happiness under the exact same circumstances if just proof of how wide is the divide.



Absolutely. Thus my comparison to waw's.....hubby knew she wasn't happy but considered her attempts to tell him nagging.

Then she stops talking and he thinks all is well.

Until she leaves, then he's shocked and claims to be blindsided.

This is much like that.


----------



## wmn1

Cromer said:


> For the record, that bottle of Jack had been sitting for so long the box was dusty. It was a Christmas gift from a couple of years ago with a couple of custom tumblers. I rarely have anything to drink unless it's the beer or two with friends or the occasional glass of wine with a good steak. I'm sure that I was a bit dehydrated which never helps.
> 
> - I regret being drunk when I said it, but don't regret saying it. Yes, the Vegas thing was crude but it's honest. I've been thinking about a trip to Vegas with my soon-to-be roomie friend this fall.
> 
> - I didn't want nor expect to get "anything physical" from her. Without giving TMI, the "**** me like you mean it" line was something SHE would say to ME way back in the day. I knew it would be an emotional hammer when I said it, and it was meant that way. Her crying about it was not a surprise to me.
> 
> - I had been avoiding the phone but it's blowing up with texts. Her sister wants to talk to me. Geez.
> 
> - Our son was asleep when it happened, and a war wouldn't wake him up. I didn't yell anyway, just used a normal tone of voice. My wife going to her mom's is not unusual so he has no clue, thank God.
> 
> - I didn't want to go to the retreat because I'm SICK of pretending, plus it's around the time I'm planning to leave.
> 
> As much as she's known this was an issue in the past, I'm sure she thought it'd gone way since I haven't mentioned it in so long. Please understand that I just gave up trying to do anything about it and let it rest. Yes, I'm an enabler but I have no regrets about being here for the kids.
> 
> At this point, I'm ready to leave ALL of this behind and just let her deal with the house, the stuff, etc. How much and how long I have to pay her doesn't matter to me.



you would leave everything behind ????? all that you worked for ?? Not protecting yourself well. You deserve at least half if not more. But hey, it's your life. I wouldn't give up the castle.


----------



## Edward333

Cromer said:


> But I need a change.


You deserve it!!!


----------



## MrRight

One thing Cromer - the truth all came out in a drunken rage - at least you threatened the worst - which I assume is a threat and not intention

- go to vegas and get laid by hookers

- leave when son is grown up

that suggests to me you do not intend to leave until your son is older. is that the case?

In fact the way you went about things tends to suggest you wont leave. It's was more a bit of a drunken tantrum to get your way wasnt it?

I understand totally - it's no little thing to leave an otherwise good wife, your home etc and moreover - a son you have nurtured over the years - to get laid now and then.


----------



## MrRight

You might find if your wife has gone to her mother and told all - she will get no support there - in Christian belief in particular - she is breaking her marriage vows - and you might just find the tide will turn in your favour.

But you will need to apologise for drinking and the abuse. As for the words - admit you are frustrated and leave it at that. She wont want to leave it at that - part if her mother is on your side and there is a big issue now that needs to be solved. Then you will need to spot the signals - if you miss them - she will freeze up inside and that will be that. 

This might turn out very well. But will require gentle behaviour from now on.

I may have read this wrong - but that is my take based on all that has happened.


----------



## MEM2020

This is mainly about feeling egregiously taken advantage of. 

And that is predicated on a marriage where C2 has high expectations regarding what Cromer does/is going to do for her. 

The most concise way to describe it is this: C2 expects that the vast majority of Cromers:
- Time
- Treasure
- Talent
and
- Emotional energy

Are directed at her or projects she has chosen. 

Her expectations of him are VERY high. 

Her expectations of herself - are quite different. 

Situation like this it becomes difficult not to conclude that C2 loves C2 more than she loves Cromer. And C2 expects, nay she demands that Cromer love her more than he loves himself. 

Their sexual disconnect is merely a symptom of the real problem which is a combo of selfishness and indifference.....






MrRight said:


> One thing Cromer - the truth all came out in a drunken rage - at least you threatened the worst - which I assume is a threat and not intention
> 
> - go to vegas and get laid by hookers
> 
> - leave when son is grown up
> 
> that suggests to me you do not intend to leave until your son is older. is that the case?
> 
> In fact the way you went about things tends to suggest you wont leave. It's was more a bit of a drunken tantrum to get your way wasnt it?
> 
> I understand totally - it's no little thing to leave an otherwise good wife, your home etc and moreover - a son you have nurtured over the years - to get laid now and then.


----------



## Bibi1031

Lloyd Dobler said:


> This sounds eerily similar to CopperTop's situation.


I honestly hope not. Cromer's kids are well rounded and not ill at all. They are doing more than great, so at least he can't be imprisoned in a sexless marriage that way. 

Now that the cat is out of the bag, please follow through Cromer. There is no more waiting time left since you blurted it out before time. Nothing wrong with that though, but it does make you push the outcome weeks earlier.

May your wife accept the demise of the marriage in the best of ways for everyone involved. You just never know how she will really react once she knows that the life she so fiercely held on too is not going to happen. Please be prepared for this to possibly happen and let everything go if that means you will set yourself free. 

Like you stated in an earlier post, you need a change indeed. You have paid your penance more than you should have.


----------



## Cromer

wmn1 said:


> you would leave everything behind ????? all that you worked for ?? Not protecting yourself well. You deserve at least half if not more. But hey, it's your life. I wouldn't give up the castle.


With the anticipated asset split that I've worked with my legal team, both of us will have a 6 figure yearly income (barely). Yes, she will make out MUCH better because I'm offering 60% of total assets but at this point, it's worth it to me. We have a 4k sq ft home complex with 6 br and 5 baths on 15 acres. I love it but am willing to give it up. I'm extremely low maintenance, we only have this place because of her. The bottom line is that I will not be destitute and would never allow the mother of my children to be destitute. To the contrary, she will be set for life and I would rest easy.


----------



## mary35

MEM2020 said:


> This is mainly about feeling egregiously taken advantage of.
> 
> And that is predicated on a marriage where C2 has high expectations regarding what Cromer does/is going to do for her.
> 
> The most concise way to describe it is this: C2 expects that the vast majority of Cromers:
> - Time
> - Treasure
> - Talent
> and
> - Emotional energy
> 
> Are directed at her or projects she has chosen.
> 
> Her expectations of him are VERY high.
> 
> Her expectations of herself - are quite different.
> 
> Situation like this it becomes difficult not to conclude that C2 loves C2 more than she loves Cromer. And C2 expects, nay she demands that Cromer love her more than he loves himself.
> 
> Their sexual disconnect is merely a symptom of the real problem which is a combo of selfishness and indifference.....


Good Luck getting her to see this though!

I feel for you Cromer. I think you have a rough road ahead. You've been the "good guy" for so long, this change may be a bit uncomfortable for you for awhile. I hope it all works out for you and that you find someone who you can be truly happy with.


----------



## MrRight

Cromer said:


> With the anticipated asset split that I've worked with my legal team, both of us will have a 6 figure yearly income (barely). Yes, she will make out MUCH better because I'm offering 60% of total assets but at this point, it's worth it to me. We have a 4k sq ft home complex with 6 br and 5 baths on 15 acres. I love it but am willing to give it up. * I'm extremely low maintenance, we only have this place because of her.* The bottom line is that I will not be destitute and would never allow the mother of my children to be destitute. To the contrary, she will be set for life and I would rest easy.


Me too - and yes same here.


----------



## Marc878

Cromer said:


> Let me start by saying again I appreciate all of your comments and input. They have been very helpful in getting me to see things from several different angles. I debated about posting this because I acted like a total ass last night, but here goes.
> 
> After reading through all of this and thinking about things, I did something that I hadn't done in a long time. I got out a bottle and proceeded to get liquored up last night.
> 
> I spent a lot of yesterday with the chainsaw doing some tree clean-up work on the property that I've been putting off (we live on 15 acres). Nothing like good ol' manual labor, there's a lot of time for thinking. Well, I was tired last night and it was my intention to peacefully watch zombie movies on Netflix in an effort to get my "man card" back after seeing all of the LMN crap I've watched lately. I don't mean to be flip but I'm trying to maintain a sense of humor. Anyhow...
> 
> After I'd had several strong drinks, my wife comes into the room, kisses my bald head (I shave it), and asked if I would be willing to go to a church couple's retreat next month. She has asked before and I've only said that I'd think about it. Keep in mind that we know a lot of people who are going and it's important to her for us to go. The conversation went something like this:
> 
> Me: No.
> Her: Why not?
> Me: Because I don't want to go.
> Her: Why?
> Me: I'll tell you what. I'll go if you promise me something.
> Her: What?
> Me: That while we're there you'll f**k me like you mean it.
> 
> Of course, I have no intention of going. I only said that to provoke a response.
> 
> She didn't know what to say, then ran off to the bedroom, shut and locked the door, and started crying. I couldn't leave well enough alone, so I stood outside the door and said "You know, I'm outta here when *our son* is gone and I'm going to get laid somewhere, maybe Vegas. You can take that to the bank." Then I went back to watching TV, thought about posting here but was really tired, then fell asleep in my recliner. When I woke up this morning, she was gone. I just found out she's at her mom's house.
> 
> Well, there you have it.


After 10years of celibacy I see nothing wrong here. Not everyone is capable of living like a eunuch.

10 years of zilch hurt a lot worse that a one night drunken outburst.

I'd use this to start the ball rolling.


----------



## farsidejunky

How are you holding up, Cromer?


----------



## Yeswecan

sokillme said:


> You know you are actually blaming the victim here.


The victim let it go on for 10 years. Self imposed victimhood?


----------



## bandit.45

wmn1 said:


> exactly !!! Bandit. I just brought this up a few posts ago. *Did Comer's wife have an affair a while ago* ?


No. Apparently she has just been withholding sex for years.


----------



## bandit.45

Cromer said:


> With the anticipated asset split that I've worked with my legal team, both of us will have a 6 figure yearly income (barely). Yes, she will make out MUCH better because I'm offering 60% of total assets but at this point, it's worth it to me. We have a 4k sq ft home complex with 6 br and 5 baths on 15 acres. I love it but am willing to give it up. I'm extremely low maintenance, we only have this place because of her. The bottom line is that I will not be destitute and would never allow the mother of my children to be destitute. To the contrary, she will be set for life and I would rest easy.


No single guy needs a home this big. Neither of you do. Sell your half to her, buy a small house in a great location that you want o grow old and die in, then sock away the rest or go on a big long vacation to some foreign country with beaches full of naked women.


----------



## sokillme

Yeswecan said:


> The victim let it go on for 10 years. Self imposed victimhood?


He did it for his kids. His kids are grown. The victim comment was in the context of calling him a bad guy for wanting to leave. He had a valid reason for wanting to leave. Many, many people think that marriage without sex is not marriage at all.


----------



## Yeswecan

sokillme said:


> He is not blindsiding her. They have talked about this off and on for years. Again you guys act like she is a child, she is a grown adult. If your spouse tells you over and over, this is a deal breaker to me you can't be blindsided if it turns out to be a deal breaker.
> 
> She is perfectly capable of getting counseling for herself like any other adult. Why are some of you so desperate to see her as helpless?
> 
> By the way --
> 
> 
> 
> Why I said steel yourself. I thought I was being too cynical by bringing up the possibility but what are the chances that that is what the Mom is pissed at.


Sokillme...many couples have thrown out the D word from time to time in arguments. It's inevitable. However, not many secretly stow their stuff in a storage unit. Repair the house and plan an exit without the other being aware. Specifically after 10 years when one thinks the marriage is do well.

At this juncture Cromer has had months to prepare and is ready to hit Vegas. The W got it in a 10 minute outburst to prepare. Yes, at this time the W is helpless other than turning to family for now.


----------



## Yeswecan

sokillme said:


> He did it for his kids. His kids are grown. The victim comment was in the context of calling him a bad guy for wanting to leave. He had a valid reason for wanting to leave. Many, many people think that marriage without sex is not marriage at all.


I don't believe any are calling Cromer a bad guy for leaving. The justification looks good. The method maybe not so much.


Sex is part of marriage certainly. Some can live without it some can't as we see here.


----------



## arbitrator

*Late to this party, once again! But she's a mature 50 year old woman ~ and she's got to know that without at least some medical complication on her part or even yours, that a "no sex" policy with your spouse can end up being the ultimate deal breaker, no matter what your ages are!*


----------



## BetrayedDad

Cromer said:


> I've done a lot of reading in the forums over the past few months on the recommendation of a friend. It is so helpful to read about others' experiences, even though so much of it is so sad and/or tragic. I guess I'm posting because I'm having second thoughts? I was so sure.
> 
> My wife and I are in our early 50's and married for 30 years. I have been retired for a couple of years and she's been a SAHM for most of our marriage. Our youngest is leaving for college soon and for the first time in a very long time, we will be home by ourselves. We are financially secure and in good health and good shape. We still enjoy each other's company and do everything together. We get along great and have a lot of the same interests. Except for sex. We haven't had sex in over ten years and for her, it's no big deal. For me it's Hell.
> 
> I don't need any advice about how to "rekindle" anything. We've been down that road many, many times in many different ways, to include doctors and counseling. The fact remains that we have a sexless marriage and I have long since given up on trying to change it. I haven't brought up the topic in years. I'm sure she thinks the topic of sex has "gone away." The fact is that I have been planning to get out for a long time. We'd be so much better as best friends than husband and wife. I have remained faithful.


Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Your wife's ten years of sexual neglect is tantamount to ABUSE.

You are a victim. She's an abuser wrapped in a pretty little bow. I agree with the term "HELL."

Your only mistake was waiting ten years to divorce her. She has neglected you long enough.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes,

I continue to speak as a traveler - not - a mod. I started to write you this post twice - and then deleted it because - you aren't violating any rules. So - I will start with that. You aren't breaking any rules. 

I do however feel that you are being unkind and unfair to the OP and have done so from the start of the thread. I am therefore asking you to go back and read the sixth post on this thread. It is your post - and in it you assert the OP is basking in the glow - full quote below. So this is my question - which you are not obligated to answer. What did the OP say in his initial posts - to warrant your post claiming that he was basking in the glow - #6 below? 

------------------------
I concur. However, this poor woman is about to get hit by a oncoming freight train that is steaming at her back. OP appears to be basking in the glow of planning without his W knowledge.
--------------








Yeswecan said:


> The victim let it go on for 10 years. Self imposed victimhood?


----------



## wilson

BetrayedDad said:


> Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Your wife's ten years of sexual neglect is tantamount to ABUSE.
> 
> You are a victim. She's an abuser wrapped in a pretty little bow. I agree with the term "HELL."
> 
> Your only mistake was waiting ten years to divorce her. She has neglected you long enough.


I think it would be helpful to get some clarification on whether she was really rejecting him or whether her heart just wasn't into it. That's an important difference. Did she actually tell him "No" when he approached for sex? Or was it that she did not meet his standard for passion, so he stopped asking and she never brought it up? If it's the first, then yes, that would be like abuse. But if it's the second, there should be more compassion of the situation. If she doesn't feel passionate or crave sex, I can't really fault her for not initiating and not being passionate in bed. But I would still expect her to do her best to make him happy, which would mean not always rejecting him when he initiated.


----------



## Edward333

Yeswecan said:


> The victim let it go on for 10 years. Self imposed victimhood?


Yeswecan,

The tone of your posts makes it seem like you have an axe to grind with the OP.

Did your spouse leave you after you withheld sex for 10 years?

Please tell.


----------



## Yeswecan

MEM2020 said:


> Yes,
> 
> I continue to speak as a traveler - not - a mod. I started to write you this post twice - and then deleted it because - you aren't violating any rules. So - I will start with that. You aren't breaking any rules.
> 
> I do however feel that you are being unkind and unfair to the OP and have done so from the start of the thread. I am therefore asking you to go back and read the sixth post on this thread. It is your post - and in it you assert the OP is basking in the glow - full quote below. So this is my question - which you are not obligated to answer. What did the OP say in his initial posts - to warrant your post claiming that he was basking in the glow - #6 below?
> 
> ------------------------
> I concur. However, this poor woman is about to get hit by a oncoming freight train that is steaming at her back. OP appears to be basking in the glow of planning without his W knowledge.
> --------------


Cromer:


> For me, I have been carefully planning for divorce for the past year and she has no idea. Not in the slightest.


This to me is calculating and basking in the glow of what is coming that his W hasn't the slightest. 

Cromer:


> Everything is ready to go, to include all of the planning for the anticipated split in assets.


How would Cromer expect the confrontation to go? Cromer has had months to prepare. The W had a 10 minute outburst. She left crying. Yet, many here said she was childish. Really? One's entire world crashes and burns in under three sentences. Many here expected the W to be ready for it because there was talk about it a few times.

I have no issue with the separatation. It is justified in my eye. The method is not.


----------



## Yeswecan

Edward333 said:


> Yeswecan,
> 
> The tone of your posts makes it seem like you have an axe to grind with the OP.
> 
> Did your spouse leave you after you withheld sex for 10 years?
> 
> Please tell.


Not at all Edward333. The method of deceiving is very calculating. The methodical cleaning out of things to a storage facility. The separation of finances. The escape route to Vegas. Meanwhile the W is non-the-wiser.


----------



## musicftw07

Yeswecan said:


> Not at all Edward333. The method of deceiving is very calculating. The methodical cleaning out of things to a storage facility. The separation of finances. The escape route to Vegas. Meanwhile the W is non-the-wiser.


It's his life. As long as he's not breaking his wedding vows, what he chooses to do with *his* stuff and *his* income is *his* business.

Especially after a decade of celibacy forced upon him.

It really does sound like you've got an axe to grind.


----------



## Yeswecan

musicftw07 said:


> It's his life. As long as he's not breaking his wedding vows, what he chooses to do with *his* stuff and *his* income is *his* business.
> 
> Especially after a decade of celibacy forced upon him.
> 
> It really does sound like you've got an axe to grind.


No axe to grind. Issue here is many side step the secretive separation. I think it wrong. Imagine arriving home for work and half you furnishing are gone along with your spouse who is on the way to Vegas.

Forced celibacy? Cromer stayed 10 years. For the kids? His choice in both. Cromer acknowledged that. 

You appear to find the method(secret) justified because of forced celibacy. A celibacy that was not accepted but accepted non-the-less for 10 years.


----------



## Spitfire

I'm sure this isn't the way you wanted to do this but what's done is done. You'll probably have to move quickly now towards the divorce to head off any sort of reconciliation attempt on her part. Good luck


----------



## MEM2020

Yes,

I didn't read it that way but agree it can be read that way.




Yeswecan said:


> Cromer:
> 
> 
> This to me is calculating and basking in the glow of what is coming that his W hasn't the slightest.
> 
> Cromer:
> 
> 
> How would Cromer expect the confrontation to go? Cromer has had months to prepare. The W had a 10 minute outburst. She left crying. Yet, many here said she was childish. Really? One's entire world crashes and burns in under three sentences. Many here expected the W to be ready for it because there was talk about it a few times.
> 
> I have no issue with the separatation. It is justified in my eye. The method is not.


----------



## Edward333

Yeswecan said:


> Cromer stayed 10 years. For the kids?


EXACTLY!

His kids turned out pretty well from the sound of it. Very SELFLESS act on his part.

Some here perceive him preparing himself for the divorce as being "secretive" and "deceptive". I would argue that his wife essentially trapped him into a difficult situation for 10 years and he made the best of it.

His mind was made up, he planned out a smooth transition, and his wife will be able to carry on with no financial worries. 

Secretive? Deceptive? 

I'd call it being generous and compassionate.


----------



## dubsey

Yeswecan said:


> No axe to grind. Issue here is many side step the secretive separation. I think it wrong. Imagine arriving home for work and half you furnishing are gone along with your spouse who is on the way to Vegas.
> 
> Forced celibacy? Cromer stayed 10 years. For the kids? His choice in both. Cromer acknowledged that.
> 
> You appear to find the method(secret) justified because of forced celibacy. A celibacy that was not accepted but accepted non-the-less for 10 years.


The issue is moot anyway, he told her.


----------



## Cynthia

Edward333 said:


> EXACTLY!
> 
> His kids turned out pretty well from the sound of it. Very SELFLESS act on his part.
> 
> Some here perceive him preparing himself for the divorce as being "secretive" and "deceptive". I would argue that his wife essentially trapped him into a difficult situation for 10 years and he made the best of it.
> 
> His mind was made up, he planned out a smooth transition, and his wife will be able to carry on with no financial worries.
> 
> Secretive? Deceptive?
> 
> I'd call it being generous and compassionate.


I agree. From what @Cromer has said, it's not about springing it on her. It's about making things as smooth and easy as possible for the family, not only him, not only his wife, but the family as a whole. He has laid out how he has taken it all into consideration and wants to have as smooth a transition as possible. 

Cromer appears to be a reasoned, thoughtful person who cares deeply about his whole family, including his wife. He knows she's going to be upset, but he is going to make as clean a break as possible and get on with living his life. He hasn't treated her badly. He has been a good, solid husband and father and now that he is about to no longer have any children living at home, he believes his duty is done and now it's time to think about taking care of himself for a change.

Sure the family will be shocked. He warned his wife repeatedly and even required her to get a medical evaluation and counseling. He attended counseling with her. He told her that no sex would mean divorce. He has and had no malice towards her. He said he feels resentful to have celibacy imposed on him against his will, but he isn't malicious towards his wife.

He has taken care of his wife all of their marriage, but she hasn't taken care of him, at least not in this one rather important regard. Now that he is ready to divorce her, he has taken care of all the details, so she will have nothing to worry about. She can grieve and work through this without also having to worry about how she's going to make ends meet or where she's going to live. He has literally covered everything for her. I think most people would be glad to know such a mean, conniving, self-centered individual as this.


----------



## Yeswecan

Edward333 said:


> EXACTLY!
> 
> His kids turned out pretty well from the sound of it. Very SELFLESS act on his part.
> 
> Some here perceive him preparing himself for the divorce as being "secretive" and "deceptive". I would argue that his wife essentially trapped him into a difficult situation for 10 years and he made the best of it.
> 
> *He accepted it. Many here will say D because a miserable marriage is no better for kids than a D. *
> 
> His mind was made up, he planned out a smooth transition, and his wife will be able to carry on with no financial worries.
> 
> *He planned a smooth transition for himself. Again, no financial worries. Forget any of the emotional stuff. That will not come up because there are no financial worries. I have a bridge.
> *
> Secretive? Deceptive?
> 
> I'd call it being generous and compassionate.* Being deceptive and dropping a bomb on a unsuspecting spouse is compassionate? Throwing money at her is generous? Sheesh...*


----------



## Bibi1031

Cromer has had 10 years to detach. Once you know you won't stand this situation much longer, you simply formulate an exit plan. 

His wife was told ahead of time what was lacking from her side in the marriage to satisfy a basic need from her husband. He asked her for sex and intimacy, but she made that bed that now has been past due for 10 dry spell yesrs.. She has had 10 years to detach as well. She was happy getting her way for 10 years without filling her husbands needs. Well, the hubby well finally went dry for good. 

Marriage is a contract and filling your spouses needs is indeed a vow that has been broken without the possibility of repair. Just because he formulated an exit plan and is executing it doesn't make it morally wrong because some seem to think it is blind siding the wife. It is the detached and strictly business part of ending the broken vows without repair marriage transaction. 

Isn't that what TAM tells other BS to do when marriage vows have been broken. Detach and prepare your exit plan. Why is this different. He was betrayed, she didn't love and honor til death due them part. Her love included no sex after so many years of marriage. She screwed the marriage vows and not him. 

Now all Cromer needs to do is to talk to his kids once mom gets served to that his plan can be complete and the kids will need to help mom accept this loss. Hopefully his kids will not disown dad forever.


----------



## GuyInColorado

Start the separation now! You could be getting laid tomorrow. Yes, life is short and you are missing out on the best part of life.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

wilson said:


> I think it would be helpful to get some clarification on whether she was really rejecting him or whether her heart just wasn't into it. That's an important difference. Did she actually tell him "No" when he approached for sex? Or was it that she did not meet his standard for passion, so he stopped asking and she never brought it up? If it's the first, then yes, that would be like abuse. But if it's the second, there should be more compassion of the situation. If she doesn't feel passionate or crave sex, I can't really fault her for not initiating and not being passionate in bed. But I would still expect her to do her best to make him happy, which would mean not always rejecting him when he initiated.


*It doesnt matter *at this point what has happened. What matters is the OP is DONE and has tried to go about this with consideration for his STBX. Everyone needs to stop speculating and flogging him for making an extremely difficult and painful decision. (Im not saying YOU did so, @wilson) He didnt come here looking for advice as to what else he can do to try and save this, he came here for some support for what he has already decided to do.


----------



## musicftw07

3xnocharm said:


> *he didnt come here looking for advice as to what else he can do to try and save this, he came here for some support for what he has already decided to do.*


*

^^^^^ this.*


----------



## musicftw07

Yeswecan said:


> You appear to find the method(secret) justified because of forced celibacy.


NOW you're getting it. And I would not blame anyone for doing that.

If I were in Cromer's shoes, I would do the exact same thing. I told my GF that sex is implied in any romantic relationship. If the sex stops, there is no more romantic relationship. It's merely a friendship.

At which point I am no longer obligated to consider myself in a romantic relationship, and at that point it will end.

Cromer stayed for his kids. Not the choice I would have made, but I understand it based on his FOO. So I'm not going to continually post in his thread that I would have made a different choice *because it's irrelevant now and doing so doesn't help him in the here and now*.


----------



## BetrayedDad

wilson said:


> I think it would be helpful to get some clarification on whether she was really rejecting him or whether her heart just wasn't into it. That's an important difference.


You think there's a big difference? I don't. 

Do you think it's normal for a human not want sex for 10 years? I don't.

Either she needs medical treatment or she has checked out. No one's heart "isn't into it" for TEN YEARS.

Neither scenario warranted her DOING NOTHING about it while he's left rejected and going off to jerk off alone.

It's two sides of the same coin. Her lack of response to his NEEDS is what's cruel and what makes her abusive imo.


----------



## MrRight

Nothing from cromer for a while. I guess something is happening.

according to his dialogue with his wife - or rather bedroom door drunken rant - he is going to leave when son is grown up.

Son also apparantly sleeping in bedroom while this was going on. Not good. Hope he didnt hear any of it. Cromer seems to live in a mansion so hopefully not. I would have lost respect for my father had I heard such cruel drivel - even had I been aware of the full context. probably would never have spoken to him again.

No excuse for drunken threats of paid sex in vegas and abandonment when son grown in my view after wife rightfully took herself away from an abusive situation. Sorry - 10 years of no sex in marriage does not make it ok to get plastered and unload vulgar threats and suggestions to one's wife.

Understandable - we all make mistakes - but I dont agree with the - well at least you got it out into the open comments and serves her right etc. This was a poor turn of events compared with the intention of a respectable conversation and break. As someone said - the moral high ground has been lost to drink and prostitution threats.

I also dont think wives should be coerced, morally or contractually into sex. If it's to be divorce - then so be it - but make sure you walk away on the best terms possible. Dont trash the last 30 years and sneak away unshaven in a dirty set of clothing.


----------



## MEM2020

Cromer staying a decade plus for the kids - hugely selfless. 

In a perfect world - he would have moved out the bedroom 12 months before his sons graduation date. And at that point in time told C2 that in 12 months he was out. Benefit of that is the kids see/here a full year of strife and THEN the marriage ends. 

Because the drawback to the approach Cromer took is the kids are all going to question their own ability to gauge the health of a long term relationship. 





Edward333 said:


> EXACTLY!
> 
> His kids turned out pretty well from the sound of it. Very SELFLESS act on his part.
> 
> Some here perceive him preparing himself for the divorce as being "secretive" and "deceptive". I would argue that his wife essentially trapped him into a difficult situation for 10 years and he made the best of it.
> 
> His mind was made up, he planned out a smooth transition, and his wife will be able to carry on with no financial worries.
> 
> Secretive? Deceptive?
> 
> I'd call it being generous and compassionate.


----------



## MrRight

MEM2020 said:


> Cromer staying a decade plus for the kids - hugely selfless.
> 
> In a perfect world - he would have moved out the bedroom 12 months before his sons graduation date. And at that point in time told C2 that in 12 months he was out. Benefit of that is the kids see/here a full year of strife and THEN the marriage ends.
> 
> Because the drawback to the approach Cromer took is the kids are all going to question their own ability to gauge the health of a long term relationship.


I think that is speculation. Cromer may well explain the true nature of things to his son when the time is right.


----------



## bandit.45

I don't think she's going to be as devastated as some speculate. I imagine she will spend a couple days crying and talking to her church sisters. They will tell her he's a scumbag and that she is better off without him. She go crying to her pastor and he will tell her to pray for his deliverance and that God will change his mind...blah, blah. 

She'll be sad for a week, then she'll grow indignant, and then she'll hire a shark lawyer to try her best to skin him.


----------



## bandit.45

The term LD should be outlawed on TAM. "Abnormal" is the word that should be used.


----------



## Red Sonja

wmn1 said:


> you would leave everything behind ????? all that you worked for ?? Not protecting yourself well. You deserve at least half if not more.


I was in an almost identical situation as the OP ... I left half of our (considerable) assets behind, the house and took no support, it was worth every ****ing penny to be out of sexless hell.

I can always start over and make more money, what I cannot do is let someone else suck me dry emotionally ... it's slow soul-destruction.


----------



## Red Sonja

MEM2020 said:


> Cromer staying a decade plus for the kids - hugely selfless.
> 
> In a perfect world - he would have moved out the bedroom 12 months before his sons graduation date. And at that point in time told C2 that in 12 months he was out. Benefit of that is the kids see/here a full year of strife and THEN the marriage ends.


I did EXACTLY this in an identical situation as OP and my sexless-alien H still "flipped out" when I actually left. These people are expert at denying reality and playing the victim card. Why? *Because they feel justified in using others to their own benefit.

*


----------



## thelitewentoff

Wow. Just got back on here and read through Cromers tragic situation.
No hijack here, but his life and what he's dealing with sounds very familiar. 
After joining TAM, and reading and understanding the pitfalls of divorce through posts like these, and keeping an open point of view, I have started to make my own plans.
Cromer, no man or woman for that matter needs to be in a sexless marriage. It is the bond that hold two people together. 
If nothing is there from one or both, whats the point? 
I do not blame him for his recent drunken outburst, but it is too bad the news was delivered that way. (and no one should be getting drunk to express how they are feeling)
One's got to recognize since he started posting a few days ago, and he posted a lot, this **** has been really bothering him, questioning himself and his decision to pull the trigger. 
It was the booze that was talking, but this has been coming to boiling point for some time for Cromer, and with anyone dealing with a life changing event like divorce, I get it that one drink turned into 2 or 3.
If he can't deal with this situation unless he has a bottle in his hand, maybe he should remove himself from the house and memories, and move in with his buddy now. 
I hope him the best. God knows what he is to expect.


----------



## thelitewentoff

@3Xnocharm....I like your tag line...

Life is too short to spend time with people who suck the happiness out of you.


----------



## farsidejunky

Cromer has requested that his thread be closed, and I am honoring that request.

He has chosen to do so because of speculation about what has happened that hasn't actually happened, and that he had come here to get ideas about how to smoothly execute the divorce.

Via PM: 

"As for my situation, I spoke at length with my wife's sister this morning. Yesterday my wife told her mother and sister the real story of what's was going on and they were shocked. Her sister is surprised I didn't leave much sooner. My MiL is very upset at my wife about it, basically saying that she never refused "her man" and what my wife did was not Christian. My MiL was married to my FiL for 44 years before he died. My wife is home now and she's one defeated woman. I'm not sure what's next but I feel horrible. Thankfully our son is going to be on a trip this weekend so we'll have some time to talk. Thanks for everything."

I asked that he update this thread when it suits him and he said he would.


----------



## Cromer

Please let me start by saying thanks to FSJ for unlocking the thread and his support. I really appreciate how he reached out. I stopped posting because I got so much "advice" about how I shouldn't end things and the speculation about my life and behavior. What I saw some people saying simply wasn't who I am at all. Anyhow, my update for anyone who might find it helpful. I'm all over the place because I am having some blueberry moonshine after cooking her dinner, watching a movie with her, and having a "great time" with the gf who is now asleep lol.

I am divorced. It's not something I wanted but in retrospect something I needed. The divorce cost me over a million dollars, but it was money well spent. I will never, truly be free of my XW. I had been with her since I was 19 (early 50's now). She is etched on my heart in a way that no other woman will ever be, and I don't mean to be dramatic but it is a fact. So much down the drain and for what? She wanted to bang a hot younger dude because she was lonely when I was deployed 12 years ago? Then she thought to have sex with me was cheating on him?!? Where is he now? Married with a child of his own, and my XW is alone with her mother and miserable. A few weeks ago she was crying on the phone after she found out about my girlfriend, and said that she will never find anyone else because of the weight she gained. Frankly, I told her "not my circus, not my clowns". I know that was cruel but what the heck, I deserved a dig.

For those who followed this thread, you know that I loved my XW dearly, protected her, supported her, provided for her, and guarded her as the mother of our children. She was my best friend, but we had not been intimate in over 10 years. I held hope that we could mend what was wrong but she wasn't interested despite counseling, medical intervention, etc. That was until I dropped the "D" bomb with her getting served the day I moved out. That's when all of the ugliness about her years-ago affair came out.

My XW is a good looking woman with a very charming personality. She has always been a man magnet. Frankly, I'm not sure how I was able to keep her affection for the three years when we dated, then why she said yes when I asked her to marry me. If I were to do a "looks scale", I would say she's a 10 while I'm a 5 (today bald, goatee, fit body tho). Frankly, my worst fears ultimately played out, she was too good looking for me to hold onto. My advice to men with hot women, stay vigilant or stay away. Hot women just aren't worth the stress and pain. My downfall was trusting her implicitly; without question. I thought we were conquering the world together.

When I returned from deployment, I knew something was wrong when we didn't have sex that night. We had always had great sex when I got back. But she lost her father during that time and I thought that was it. Then she lost her sister a couple of years later (breast cancer). For years, I thought that the intimacy problems in our marriage after I got back from deployment were a result of all of this turmoil in her life. I can't tell you the number of sleepless nights that I spent with her, to support her, during all of this. I even retired early from my military career to help her take care of her family.

I obviously don't know the gritty details, but in a nutshell, she met someone when I was deployed. She had the affair for several months while I was gone, to include having him in our house and in our bed. She got our children to stay at someone else's so she could f*** some dude in our bed. She was "in love" and thought that having sex with me would somehow betray the OM. She said she ended it just before I got back, but went back to him a few months later before it ended for good when we moved. Over the years this became the norm in our marriage, although I was too naive to see it. I am such a tool.

After the divorce, I just wanted to get laid. OMG, there are so many women out there, I had no idea how easy it was to get some, even as a 50-something. But it wasn't long before I found a woman who had been betrayed by her XH (at my church, of all places, completely by accident at a social) who had the same attitude as me: never again trust anyone. After a few amazing months, she is going to stay at my house for a few days a week and moves into a room next week. It's her room but I am sure that's not where she will be sleeping lol. Yes, I may be a fool in all of this but I am living life again, and there is nothing like a woman who works you over physically like she really wants you. Just saying.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Cromer said:


> Please let me start by saying thanks to FSJ for unlocking the thread and his support. I really appreciate how he reached out. I stopped posting because I got so much "advice" about how I shouldn't end things and the speculation about my life and behavior. What I saw some people saying simply wasn't who I am at all. Anyhow, my update for anyone who might find it helpful. I'm all over the place because I am having some blueberry moonshine after cooking her dinner, watching a movie with her, and having a "great time" with the gf who is now asleep lol.
> 
> I am divorced. It's not something I wanted but in retrospect something I needed. The divorce cost me over a million dollars, but it was money well spent. I will never, truly be free of my XW. I had been with her since I was 19 (early 50's now). She is etched on my heart in a way that no other woman will ever be, and I don't mean to be dramatic but it is a fact. So much down the drain and for what? She wanted to bang a hot younger dude because she was lonely when I was deployed 12 years ago? Then she thought to have sex with me was cheating on him?!? Where is he now? Married with a child of his own, and my XW is alone with her mother and miserable. A few weeks ago she was crying on the phone after she found out about my girlfriend, and said that she will never find anyone else because of the weight she gained. Frankly, I told her "not my circus, not my clowns". I know that was cruel but what the heck, I deserved a dig.
> 
> For those who followed this thread, you know that I loved my XW dearly, protected her, supported her, provided for her, and guarded her as the mother of our children. She was my best friend, but we had not been intimate in over 10 years. I held hope that we could mend what was wrong but she wasn't interested despite counseling, medical intervention, etc. That was until I dropped the "D" bomb with her getting served the day I moved out. That's when all of the ugliness about her years-ago affair came out.
> 
> My XW is a good looking woman with a very charming personality. She has always been a man magnet. Frankly, I'm not sure how I was able to keep her affection for the three years when we dated, then why she said yes when I asked her to marry me. If I were to do a "looks scale", I would say she's a 10 while I'm a 5 (today bald, goatee, fit body tho). Frankly, my worst fears ultimately played out, she was too good looking for me to hold onto. My advice to men with hot women, stay vigilant or stay away. Hot women just aren't worth the stress and pain. My downfall was trusting her implicitly; without question. I thought we were conquering the world together.
> 
> When I returned from deployment, I knew something was wrong when we didn't have sex that night. We had always had great sex when I got back. But she lost her father during that time and I thought that was it. Then she lost her sister a couple of years later (breast cancer). For years, I thought that the intimacy problems in our marriage after I got back from deployment were a result of all of this turmoil in her life. I can't tell you the number of sleepless nights that I spent with her, to support her, during all of this. I even retired early from my military career to help her take care of her family.
> 
> I obviously don't know the gritty details, but in a nutshell, she met someone when I was deployed. She had the affair for several months while I was gone, to include having him in our house and in our bed. She got our children to stay at someone else's so she could f*** some dude in our bed. She was "in love" and thought that having sex with me would somehow betray the OM. She said she ended it just before I got back, but went back to him a few months later before it ended for good when we moved. Over the years this became the norm in our marriage, although I was too naive to see it. I am such a tool.
> 
> After the divorce, I just wanted to get laid. OMG, there are so many women out there, I had no idea how easy it was to get some, even as a 50-something. But it wasn't long before I found a woman who had been betrayed by her XH (at my church, of all places, completely by accident at a social) who had the same attitude as me: never again trust anyone. After a few amazing months, she is going to stay at my house for a few days a week and moves into a room next week. It's her room but I am sure that's not where she will be sleeping lol. Yes, I may be a fool in all of this but I am living life again, and there is nothing like a woman who works you over physically like she really wants you. Just saying.


Very happy for you Cromer. You should be proud of the husband you were. You deserve the life you are now living. Have fun!


----------



## farsidejunky

Thanks for the update, brother. 

Keep being great.


----------



## itskaren

Wow. You could be my husband. ...🙁 this is probably how he feels. We both know it. It’s just unspoken.


----------



## Tron

WOW!

Was it just one or multiple affairs? 

What a slag!

So sorry Cromer. How did you find out about the affair?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Cromer, I am so glad you came back to update. Its nice to read that you are doing so well! 

I for one am not surprised that your wife cheated. How did this truth all come out?


----------



## M042

so wait in all that thread about -- dropping the news-- you never knew about the cheating until after the thread was locked?


----------



## Cromer

3Xnocharm said:


> Cromer, I am so glad you came back to update. Its nice to read that you are doing so well!
> 
> I for one am not surprised that your wife cheated. How did this truth all come out?


An old military friend found out about the divorce situation and messaged me on fb. He asked if it was because of what my wife did. Whoa. He thought I knew. It seems that his wife knew what my wife had done but didn't tell her husband anything until years later. It galls me to no end that we did all of these "couples" things together for years yet they kept this from me. Oh well, not their circus I guess.

When my XW was served, she went into full meltdown, batsh!t crazy woman mode. Shear panic. She is still depressed and taking medication. It was a complete shock and her emotions where all over the place. We had been together for 33 years and we were both virgins when we met. She did not want the divorce and decided that she wanted to work on our "issue." In her mind, because I had stopped talking about it for so long, she thought it had "gone away." I didn't tell her I knew anything, simply asked her to be completely honest with me and tell me why she hadn't wanted sex all of these years. She came clean and confessed and apparently thought that I knew something had happened. At the time, she thought if she were honest with me then I would be more willing to stay and try to work things out. Instead, I moved out. I'm back in the house now though, she left to be with her mother.

I still don't know, nor do I want to know, all of the details about what happened. But basically, she had the affair when I was deployed, "stopped" when I got back, then when I had to be gone again for a few weeks after being home for several months, she went back to screwing the OM. Just before we moved a few months later, her boyfriend ended it. I remember her being so down at the time but I attributed that to her family situation. Shortly before the move, I took a couple of surprise days off from work and went on a trip to the beach, just the two of us, to try and help her feel better. I thought it was her sister's diagnosis but no, she was upset at losing OM. Thinking back, I now realize why that trip was such a bust. It turns out he met someone, but she did not know it at the time. She was 43 and having an affair with a 26-year-old. Geez.

I was an idiot. I so completely and utterly trusted this woman. Never, ever again. I don't know if there were any other affairs but it is moot at this point. I saw so many of my friends have their wives cheat on them over the years, and it never occurred to me that it would happen to us. We even talked about how it was such an evil thing to do to another person, we would never do it, etc.

I do worry about my XW. She has gained almost 40 lbs and has isolated herself with her mother. She called and texted me every day for months until I finally had to stop answering. She's lonely and depressed and her family hates me right now. I haven't given them any details so there is no telling what they think, which is a shame. I loved them like my own. But she's financially taken care of for life so she could do anything she wants. I really hope she moves on at some point.


----------



## bandit.45

Thanks for the update Cromer. I hope you are getting laid like asphalt.


----------



## Cromer

bandit.45 said:


> Thanks for the update Cromer. I hope you are getting laid like asphalt.


I am a young, retired man of leisure. My newish ladyfriend is a career woman who jokes that she needs a man toy waiting at home. I'm happy to oblige. I even cook. :wink2:


----------



## bandit.45

Cromer said:


> I am a young, retired man of leisure. My newish ladyfriend is a career woman who jokes that she needs a man toy waiting at home. I'm happy to oblige. I even cook. :wink2:


I bet you tore her up the first time. 😆

She was the happy recipient of a sex-starved man. ....An all you can eat buffet for an Auswitz victim.


----------



## Uselessmale

Your story is a lot like mine. Although no EA that I know of, but I have been pushed away for a multitude of years. When I finally gave the ultimatum of counseling or me leaving, now decides to have sex with me and mains and coos like I’m a lover from one of her novels. It’s forced I know. I’m just tired of being married and lonely and verbally abused. Think I need to drop a bomb myself. Thanks for your story


----------



## Don't Panic

Wow....
I'm so sad for your wasted years Cromer, but very, very happy that you finally know the truth and are enjoying your life.

I had told your story to my children (young adults) as a cautionary tale of sexual incompatibility. Clearly that wasn't quite *exactly* the case. My son still occasionally asks me how you are doing, thank you for the update.


----------



## Cromer

bandit.45 said:


> I bet you tore her up the first time. 😆
> 
> She was the happy recipient of a sex-starved man. ....An all you can eat buffet for an Auswitz victim.


Let's put it this way. It's warmed up to the 80's here and a couple of days ago a simple picnic in the field on the property turned into a first-ever sex in a pasture. Twice. In the open. It's a good thing there are 10 acres of woods around and a gated road. Yesterday it was was the new pool deck. Last week it was the fire pit.

A couple of weeks ago we left to go to the movie and dinner, so she thought. I made the excuse that we needed to go back because I forgot my wallet. She went into the house to get it for me, only to find me blocking the door, then getting creative with the chairs on the porch.

Life is great.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> Please let me start by saying thanks to FSJ for unlocking the thread and his support. I really appreciate how he reached out. I stopped posting because I got so much "advice" about how I shouldn't end things and the speculation about my life and behavior. What I saw some people saying simply wasn't who I am at all. Anyhow, my update for anyone who might find it helpful. I'm all over the place because I am having some blueberry moonshine after cooking her dinner, watching a movie with her, and having a "great time" with the gf who is now asleep lol.
> 
> I am divorced. It's not something I wanted but in retrospect something I needed. The divorce cost me over a million dollars, but it was money well spent. I will never, truly be free of my XW. I had been with her since I was 19 (early 50's now). She is etched on my heart in a way that no other woman will ever be, and I don't mean to be dramatic but it is a fact. So much down the drain and for what? She wanted to bang a hot younger dude because she was lonely when I was deployed 12 years ago? Then she thought to have sex with me was cheating on him?!? Where is he now? Married with a child of his own, and my XW is alone with her mother and miserable. A few weeks ago she was crying on the phone after she found out about my girlfriend, and said that she will never find anyone else because of the weight she gained. Frankly, I told her "not my circus, not my clowns". I know that was cruel but what the heck, I deserved a dig.
> 
> For those who followed this thread, you know that I loved my XW dearly, protected her, supported her, provided for her, and guarded her as the mother of our children. She was my best friend, but we had not been intimate in over 10 years. I held hope that we could mend what was wrong but she wasn't interested despite counseling, medical intervention, etc. That was until I dropped the "D" bomb with her getting served the day I moved out. That's when all of the ugliness about her years-ago affair came out.
> 
> My XW is a good looking woman with a very charming personality. She has always been a man magnet. Frankly, I'm not sure how I was able to keep her affection for the three years when we dated, then why she said yes when I asked her to marry me. If I were to do a "looks scale", I would say she's a 10 while I'm a 5 (today bald, goatee, fit body tho). Frankly, my worst fears ultimately played out, she was too good looking for me to hold onto. My advice to men with hot women, stay vigilant or stay away. Hot women just aren't worth the stress and pain. My downfall was trusting her implicitly; without question. I thought we were conquering the world together.
> 
> When I returned from deployment, I knew something was wrong when we didn't have sex that night. We had always had great sex when I got back. But she lost her father during that time and I thought that was it. Then she lost her sister a couple of years later (breast cancer). For years, I thought that the intimacy problems in our marriage after I got back from deployment were a result of all of this turmoil in her life. I can't tell you the number of sleepless nights that I spent with her, to support her, during all of this. I even retired early from my military career to help her take care of her family.
> 
> I obviously don't know the gritty details, but in a nutshell, she met someone when I was deployed. She had the affair for several months while I was gone, to include having him in our house and in our bed. She got our children to stay at someone else's so she could f*** some dude in our bed. She was "in love" and thought that having sex with me would somehow betray the OM. She said she ended it just before I got back, but went back to him a few months later before it ended for good when we moved. Over the years this became the norm in our marriage, although I was too naive to see it. I am such a tool.
> 
> After the divorce, I just wanted to get laid. OMG, there are so many women out there, I had no idea how easy it was to get some, even as a 50-something. But it wasn't long before I found a woman who had been betrayed by her XH (at my church, of all places, completely by accident at a social) who had the same attitude as me: never again trust anyone. After a few amazing months, she is going to stay at my house for a few days a week and moves into a room next week. It's her room but I am sure that's not where she will be sleeping lol. Yes, I may be a fool in all of this but I am living life again, and there is nothing like a woman who works you over physically like she really wants you. Just saying.


I think I am losing my faith in humanity.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I do worry about my XW. She has gained almost 40 lbs and has isolated herself with her mother. She called and texted me every day for months until I finally had to stop answering. She's lonely and depressed and her family hates me right now. I haven't given them any details so there is no telling what they think, which is a shame. I loved them like my own. But she's financially taken care of for life so she could do anything she wants. I really hope she moves on at some point.


****ing hell dude tell them.


----------



## bandit.45

Yaaaaaaaahooooooooo!!!!!🤪


----------



## Don't Panic

Cromer said:


> Let's put it this way. It's warmed up to the 80's here and a couple of days ago a simple picnic in the field on the property turned into a first-ever sex in a pasture. Twice. In the open. It's a good thing there are 10 acres of woods around and a gated road. Yesterday it was was the new pool deck. Last week it was the fire pit.
> 
> A couple of weeks ago we left to go to the movie and dinner, so she thought. I made the excuse that we needed to go back because I forgot my wallet. She went into the house to get it for me, only to find me blocking the door, then getting creative with the chairs on the porch.
> 
> Life is great.


That's awesome! You're an inspiration :grin2: 
So happy to know you are thriving!


----------



## Cromer

Uselessmale said:


> Your story is a lot like mine. Although no EA that I know of, but I have been pushed away for a multitude of years. When I finally gave the ultimatum of counseling or me leaving, now decides to have sex with me and mains and coos like I’m a lover from one of her novels. It’s forced I know. I’m just tired of being married and lonely and verbally abused. Think I need to drop a bomb myself. Thanks for your story


I didn't fully realize just how lonely I was during those years. I had forgotten what it was like to be wanted. I see that now. One shouldn't accept lonely in a relationship, much less a marriage. I feel for you brother. Believe me, I do.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> ****ing hell dude tell them.


My XW has been such a train wreck that I didn't want to do that to her. Her mother would be crushed. My oldest daughter knows, but that's a long story. That's about it unless my XW as told anyone. Best just to move on, it just wouldn't serve any useful purpose.


----------



## bandit.45

Cromer said:


> My XW has been such a train wreck that I didn't want to do that to her. Her mother would be crushed. My oldest daughter knows, but that's a long story. That's about it unless my XW as told anyone. Best just to move on, it just wouldn't serve any useful purpose.


But what about your rep? Do you want her or her family telling everyone you kicked your wife out and divorced her so you could replace her with a better model?

Your ex may be sad and contrite now, but that doesn’t mean she will stay that way. When the shock clears she may come out swinging. 

All you need to do is tell her mom that you found out she cheated on you years ago and for the last decade has refused to be intimate. That’s it. You don’t have to get into ugly details. But you need to protect your rep. Reputation is much more important than you think.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> My XW has been such a train wreck that I didn't want to do that to her. Her mother would be crushed. My oldest daughter knows, but that's a long story. That's about it unless my XW as told anyone. Best just to move on, it just wouldn't serve any useful purpose.


I don't know man. Turns out your wife was a pretty ****ty one. She deceived you for years, stole your sexuality, and robbed you of a **** ton of money. I read your first post again you were honorable and protective of her the whole time. You couldn't even conceive that this was done to you with malice but the truth is it was. I see this all the times with guys like you especially when thier wives are SAHM, you protect your wives from consequences like they are children, and then they go and act like children. The consequences would actually be good for her and healthy, she lived for years in an unhealthy dynamic, she didn't work even when her kids were past the age of needing constant attention right? Basically she got entitled and now that you're not there she has to live with the harsh reality one that was protected from her for her entire adult life with you. 

Besides that, ****ing a I would not let her steal my honor. Honor that was hard won by years of faithfulness, and celibacy, especially when protecting her from consequences was probably part of the reason she ****ed it all up to begin with. Your wife never grew up, she turned you into her parent. You are still treating her like a child. 

Now I am not saying announce it in church but if someone asked I would just say straight out, she cheated. Leave it at that. I would also tell my kids and the both sets of parents. Your kids have seen an unhealthy dynamic for years, this would be a good lesson for them to learn. Let them talk to her about it so that they can see the consequences of cheating. 

Do not let this women steal your honor. YOU WERE FAITHFUL AND GAVE UP SEX FOR YEARS! Now you are going to let everyone think this is a mid life crisis even your other kids? It's wrong. In my mind it kind of negates all of the honorable stuff you did in the first place.


----------



## MEM2020

The distinctive sound of a ‘good man’.

This type of restraint is increasingly rare in today’s world. 




Cromer said:


> My XW has been such a train wreck that I didn't want to do that to her. Her mother would be crushed. My oldest daughter knows, but that's a long story. That's about it unless my XW as told anyone. Best just to move on, it just wouldn't serve any useful purpose.


----------



## MEM2020

This is all true but - his real friends know what he is like and many of them know she cheated - via the grapevine. 

He isn’t running for office, so what casual acquaintances think - isn’t material. 





sokillme said:


> I don't know man. Turns out your wife as a pretty ****ty one. She deceived you for years, stole your sexuality, and robbed you of a **** ton of money. I read your first post again you were honorable and protective of her the whole time. You couldn't even conceive that this was done to you with malice but the truth is it was. I see this all the times with guys like you especially when thier wives are SAHM, you protect your wives from consequences like they are children, and then they go and act like children. The consequences would actually be good for her and healthy, she lived for years in an unhealthy dynamic, she didn't work even when her kids were past the age of needing constant attention right? Basically she got entitled and now that you're not there she has to live with the harsh reality one that was protected from her for her entire adult life with you.
> 
> Besides that, ****ing a I would not let her steal my honor. Honor that was hared won by years of faithfulness an celibacy, especially when protecting her from consequences was probably part of the reason she ****ed it all up to begin with. Your wife never grew up, she turned you into her parent. You are still treating her like a child.
> 
> Now I am not saying announce it in church but if someone asked I would just say straight out, she cheated. Leave it at that. I would also tell my kids and the both sets of parents. Your kids have seen an unhealthy dynamic for years, this would be a good lesson for them to learn. Let them talk to her about it so that they can see the consequences of cheating.
> 
> Do not let this women steal your honor. YOU WERE FAITHFUL AND GAVE UP SEX FOR YEARS! Now you are going to let everyone think this is a mid life crisis even your other kids? It's wrong. In my mind it kind of negates all of the honorable stuff you did in the first place.


----------



## Taxman

Oh it’s going to come out. She will never live it down. And she will be known as the idiot who couldn’t hold onto a good man because of her stupidity. And yes she needs some humiliation for the patently stupid way she did this to you. 

I hope you have decades of happiness and good sex with your new lady. I’m a vindictive son of a *****, and I hope your ex ends up alone. She could have fixed it and chose to torture you for no good fucxing reason, and therefore a pox on her


----------



## Vulcan2013

@bandit.45 was a little psychic with this post on your thread. Waaaay back there. 



bandit.45 said:


> I read a story many years ago on another website, written by the son of a man who did this also. He lived for years in a dud marriage, but he loved his wife and wanted to stay married. He used to handcraft custom made furniture for her...one new piece every year. Beautiful stuff...looked just like real Chippendale. Then around the 35 year mark he found out through a family friend that about ten years prior his wife had been in a LTA with a guy she worked with. He put two and two together and figured out that she had broken up with her OM around the same she stopped being intimate with him. In her own sick way she was witholding sex from him as a way of staying faithful to an OM who had dumped her. He did some sleuthing to confirm this, and once he did he pretty much did the same thing OP is doing. He got everything ready, settled his finances, and then one weekend while she was away visiting their daughter, he packed up his truck and skedaddled. Before going, he finished the last piece of furniture he had built her and set it in the living room for her to see when she got home...some kind of big beautiful wardrobe. Well, when she got home she saw it, and upon opening the doors to look inside found a goodbye letter with his wedding ring sitting on top of it. She got served the D papers a day or two later.
> 
> According to the son she cried for about a day and then went on with her life. She didn't beg her husband to come back. She knew the jig was up.


----------



## Betrayedone

10 years no nookie? WTF?


----------



## sokillme

Vulcan2013 said:


> @bandit.45 was a little psychic with this post on your thread. Waaaay back there.


Let this be a lesson all of this stuff follows a very logical pattern. Living in a sexless marriage for years is like playing Russian roulette. I have just read this story way to much now. There is always deeper reason. A marriage without regular sex is a marriage is very broken and ultimately unsustainable. 

OP thought he had a good marriage besides the sex part. He thought she was his best friend. The truth is, he marriage was very broken for a very long time and it was not a good marriage. She was not a good friend to him, she was not a good wife, she would not try to help meet his very reasonable needs. And it turns out she was an entitled cheater. But she was already selfish, just turns out she is even more then he thought.

Sexless marriages are unsustainable and bad broken marriages.


----------



## MEM2020

I can't agree strongly enough with this sentiment.  




sokillme said:


> Let this be a lesson all of this stuff follows a very logical pattern. Living in a sexless marriage for years is like playing Russian roulette. I have just read this story way to much now. There is always deeper reason. A marriage without regular sex is a marriage is very broken and ultimately unsustainable.
> 
> OP thought he had a good marriage besides the sex part. He thought she was his best friend. The truth is, he marriage was very broken for a very long time and it was not a good marriage. She was not a good friend to him, she was not a good wife, she would not try to help meet his very reasonable needs. And it turns out she was an entitled cheater. But she was already selfish, just turns out she is even more then he thought.
> 
> Sexless marriages are unsustainable and bad broken marriages.


----------



## sokillme

MEM2020 said:


> I can't agree strongly enough with this sentiment.


The worst is she is crying for herself but she doesn't get that she deserves this. She deserves to be alone for the rest of her life. She could have done the honorable thing and divorced him if she was not happy, she could have come clean and maybe they would have survived (hopefully not), instead she stole 10 years of his life from him. If she got that she would be happy that he is happy. Instead she cries that now she will be all alone. I get a lot of flack for not believing in R much but this is who these people are. This women doesn't get that she stole from him. She thinks she made a mistake that hurt her. The emphasis on her. This after he had dedicated 20 years to her. I am SO TIRED of these types of people. Our culture is toxic and it creates people like this. So self centered that the throw away years of commitment and work for some some such silliness. She ruined the rest of her life for nothing. 

OP has she said anything to you about what she did about what she took from you? Does she get what a awful wife she was to you for years? Or does she just cry that no one will love her?

If I were you I would show her this thread. Let her read how you wrote about her, as your best friend. How you scoffed at the idea that she would cheat. How you lasted 10 years without sex and feeling undesirable because of her, her lover and her lies. And you still want to protect someone like that?


----------



## MEM2020

Difference between protecting someone, and choosing not to pile on when they are down.





sokillme said:


> The worst is she is crying for herself but she doesn't get that she deserves this. She deserves to be alone for the rest of her life. She could have done the honorable thing and divorced him if she was not happy, she could have come clean and maybe they would have survived (hopefully not), instead she stole 10 years of his life from him. If she got that she would be happy that he is happy. Instead she cries that now she will be all alone. I get a lot of flack for not believing in R much but this is who these people are. This women doesn't get that she stole from him. She thinks she made a mistake that hurt her. The emphasis on her. This after he had dedicated 20 years to her. I am SO TIRED of these types of people. Our culture is toxic and it creates people like this. So self centered that the throw away years of commitment and work for some some such silliness. She ruined the rest of her life for nothing.
> 
> OP has she said anything to you about what she did about what she took from you? Does she get what a awful wife she was to you for years? Or does she just cry that no one will love her?
> 
> If I were you I would show her this thread. Let her read how you wrote about her, as your best friend. How you scoffed at the idea that she would cheat. How you lasted 10 years without sex and feeling undesirable because of her, her lover and her lies. And you still want to protect someone like that?


----------



## Cromer

bandit.45 said:


> I bet you tore her up the first time. 😆
> 
> She was the happy recipient of a sex-starved man. ....An all you can eat buffet for an Auswitz victim.


Okay, I hope this isn't TMI.

She is 48 with two adult children. Her husband was her first until the divorce 6 years ago, and she's had two partners since. Since my divorce, I had two one-night-stands that were completely unsatisfying believe it or not for a sex-starved man. Shortly after my divorce was final, we met at a church social for singles.

She and I joke that we are "double nickels", basically each of us being a "5" on the looks scale. I think she is gorgeous and one incredible lady. She is smart, sassy, doesn't take crap from anyone, accomplished, and loves for me to take charge because she's in charge every day at work. She also has a great body, and my definition of a great body is a woman with just a few extra pounds. That may not be politically correct but it's working for us LOL.

After four dates I invited her to the house for dinner on a Friday night. We end up in bed all weekend. Actually, all over the house all weekend. When she left to go to work on Monday morning she basically said that she had no idea how much a man could "appreciate" her and her body. In the time since she admits that she has stepped up her sexual game far beyond anything she's done before, and I have to tell you that I am one happy camper.

Both of us are enjoying each other but are trying to avoid the emotional entanglement thing. My gut is telling me she's not doing very good at it, and neither am I. But, I will never trust again and neither will she. We're taking it one day at a time but she is sorta moving in...


----------



## 3Xnocharm

bandit.45 said:


> But what about your rep? Do you want her or her family telling everyone you kicked your wife out and divorced her so you could replace her with a better model?


Wifey's affair will be a most excellent face thrower when the family goes on the attack for him divorcing her. 

What kills me is, she made OP go TEN YEARS with no sex, then after he files on her, THEN she comes out and confesses. To me that is sick beyond words... how sadistic.


----------



## Uselessmale

I can’t imagine there would be some lady out there like that for me. I am heartbroken


----------



## sokillme

MEM2020 said:


> Difference between protecting someone, and choosing not to pile on when they are down.


She is not my wife. I am only speaking the truth. Plus she did this to herself. Look how happy OP is with his new gf. She could have had that and with a faithful man too. Her loss.


----------



## Taxman

Cromer
You are a good and kind man. She may be completely fucxed up right now, however, you have lost sight of something major. She pretended to be your wife for all of those years. She did not have sex with you because she did not want to be UNFAITHFUL TO HER OM. You were betrayed, and then worse, denied your rights as a husband. SHE PUT THE BOMB IN YOUR MARRIAGE AND WHEN IT FAILED TO EXPLODE SHE LET IT DIE A SLOW PAINFUL DEATH, because she was too stupid or too evil to make good. Now boo hooo hoo, she is too fat, and will never find another man. Oh my heart bleeds for her. Karma, is a beatch, and so was she. I say she deserves more than a little payback. To add insult to injury, you left her fairly wealthy. Send her mother the truth about her affair and why your marriage ended. You should never be made out to be the bad guy, and I cannot say how offensive it is that these people vilify you for saving yourself. Sir, to put it in the bluntest term possible, you have been abused, and swindled.


----------



## Cromer

Taxman said:


> Cromer
> You are a good and kind man. She may be completely fucxed up right now, however, you have lost sight of something major. She pretended to be your wife for all of those years. She did not have sex with you because she did not want to be UNFAITHFUL TO HER OM. You were betrayed, and then worse, denied your rights as a husband. SHE PUT THE BOMB IN YOUR MARRIAGE AND WHEN IT FAILED TO EXPLODE SHE LET IT DIE A SLOW PAINFUL DEATH, because she was too stupid or too evil to make good. Now boo hooo hoo, she is too fat, and will never find another man. Oh my heart bleeds for her. Karma, is a beatch, and so was she. I say she deserves more than a little payback. To add insult to injury, you left her fairly wealthy. Send her mother the truth about her affair and why your marriage ended. You should never be made out to be the bad guy, and I cannot say how offensive it is that these people vilify you for saving yourself. Sir, to put it in the bluntest term possible, you have been abused, and swindled.


I see your point but just couldn't do it to her at the time. I still care about her as someone that I spent so much of my life with and as the mother of our children. Sure, I have a lot of resentment for so many years of lost intimacy, but on the other hand not every woman is cut out to be the wife of a career military man. Misjudging her character was my mistake. Not to mention, the first 20 years of our marriage was, from a sexual standpoint, great. If I had not had to deploy for that year, I'm sure that things would have played out differently. How much separation should a woman endure? I'm not sure and yes, I am explaining away her behavior, in part. But I find it hard to pour salt on her wound.


----------



## Cromer

Uselessmale said:


> I can’t imagine there would be some lady out there like that for me. I am heartbroken


UM, please don't say that. You'd be surprised. Trust me, I had no clue until I was back in the ocean, and I'm as clueless as they come re: the whole dating thing.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I see your point but just couldn't do it to her at the time. I still care about her as someone that I spent so much of my life with and as the mother of our children. Sure, I have a lot of resentment for so many years of lost intimacy, but on the other hand not every woman is cut out to be the wife of a career military man. Misjudging her character was my mistake. Not to mention, the first 20 years of our marriage was, from a sexual standpoint, great. If I had not had to deploy for that year, I'm sure that things would have played out differently. How much separation should a woman endure? I'm not sure and yes, I am explaining away her behavior, in part. But I find it hard to pour salt on her wound.


Tell your kids don't let them think their father left for some new sex. You will be damaging them and their view of marriage. Think how cynical their view of marriage will be. Let them learn from your wife's mistake, possibly the only good thing that can come out of this. When they see her crying let the lesson be the truth, don't cheat and ruin your marriage. That is an acceptable outcome in most peoples mind, nothing cynical about that. Don't let them think their own father is a monster who got away with it. Honestly for someone who acted so honorably, if you let them think their father abused their mother by walking out to shack up with some lady from church, basically because she got old that will ruin all your sacrifice in my mind. You stayed until you son was 18 to give him a good start, you need to continue to do right for him. Telling the truth is the right thing to do, for him. 

I am not saying pile on but there is no honor in continuing to let her take advantage of you. They will forgive her because she is their Mother especially if you survive and thrive, but they may not forgive you if you let them think you crushed her for selfish reasons. Your wife is going to have a hard rest of her life, their needs to be a reason for that more then just you got bored.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> Tell your kids don't let them think their father left for some new sex. You will be damaging them and their view of marriage. Think how cynical their view of marriage will be. Let them learn from your wife's mistake, possibly the only good thing that can come out of this. When they see her crying let the lesson be the truth, don't cheat and ruin your marriage. That is an acceptable outcome in most peoples mind, nothing cynical about that. Don't let them think their own father is a monster who got away with it. Honestly for someone who acted so honorably, if you let them think their father abused their mother by walking out to shack up with some lady from church, basically because she got old that will ruin all your sacrifice in my mind. You stayed until you son was 18 to give him a good start, you need to continue to do right for him. Telling the truth is the right thing to do, for him.
> 
> I am not saying pile on but there is no honor in continuing to let her take advantage of you. They will forgive her because she is their Mother especially if you survive and thrive, but they may not forgive you if you let them think you crushed her for selfish reasons. Your wife is going to have a hard rest of her life, their needs to be a reason for that more then just you got bored.


After this issue came up on the forums earlier, I texted my oldest and asked if she told her sister and brother. I just got a response and of course, she did. She said that she thought it was important for her sister and brother to know the truth about their mom and dad. Dang. She is an amazing woman. She is my baby girl who can shoot, camp and make a fire. She is wise so far beyond her years. I want to cry lol. If her husband EVER cheats on her I swear I will kill him. And I have guns. Lots of them. And knives. He will suffer.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> After this issue came up on the forums earlier, I texted my oldest and asked if she told her sister and brother. I just got a response and of course, she did. She said that she thought it was important for her sister and brother to know the truth about their mom and dad. Dang. She is an amazing woman. She is my baby girl who can shoot, camp and make a fire. She is wise so far beyond her years. I want to cry lol. If her husband EVER cheats on her I swear I will kill him. And I have guns. Lots of them. And knives. He will suffer.


Good. How did she find out. You said that was a long story. Did she know before you? 

Understand your wife needs to suffer right now, that is how it works. You do bad you suffer, then you heal and hopefully do better. Protecting people from suffering when it is a consequence of treating others bad is not healthy for them or society in general.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> Good. How did she find out. You said that was a long story. Did she know before you?


My oldest has always been so mature beyond her years. She's amazing. The bottom line is that she sensed something wasn't right with her mom and dad several years ago, and after failing to get anything from her mom when the divorce started, she went to the weak spot, dad. I told her that we "hadn't been living as a husband and wife for a long time" and she got what that meant. She then started asking about the time her mom was so weird acting years ago and put together some of the things she saw at the time. She then asked me if her mother had cheated and I couldn't lie.

Of course, there is a lot more to how this played out but that's it in a nutshell.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> My oldest has always been so mature beyond her years. She's amazing. The bottom line is that she sensed something wasn't right with her mom and dad several years ago, and after failing to get anything from her mom when the divorce started, she went to the weak spot, dad. I told her that we "hadn't been living as a husband and wife for a long time" and she got what that meant. She then started asking about the time her mom was so weird acting years ago and put together some of the things she saw at the time. She then asked me if her mother had cheated and I couldn't lie.
> 
> Of course, there is a lot more to how this played out but that's it in a nutshell.


Yeah kids know and lots of times suffer because of it, which is another reason why the act is so evil. Does her Mom know that she knows?


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> Yeah kids know and lots of times suffer because of it, which is another reason why the act is so evil. Does her Mom know that she knows?


I'm not sure and haven't asked if her mom knows that she knows. Dang, this is such a soap opera.


----------



## GusPolinski

Cromer said:


> After this issue came up on the forums earlier, I texted my oldest and asked if she told her sister and brother. I just got a response and of course, she did. She said that she thought it was important for her sister and brother to know the truth about their mom and dad. Dang. She is an amazing woman. She is my baby girl who can shoot, camp and make a fire. She is wise so far beyond her years. I want to cry lol. If her husband EVER cheats on her I swear I will kill him. And I have guns. Lots of them. And knives. He will suffer.


Sounds like you’d have to take a number and get in line behind her. :lol:

Seriously, she sounds awesome. I’d be one proud dad.


----------



## Cromer

Cromer said:


> Believe me, I thought about it but I don't see how this would be possible. I've read so much about infidelity in this forum and there's not an inkling of another man or any secrets. We have each other's phone codes, facebook passwords, computer passwords, text each other all the time, tell each other where we're going, etc. She does things with her church lady group but other than that we are always together. Even with the church lady meetings and retreats over the years, they post dozens of pictures on fb and she's always in them. I know most of them too. When I was working we'd meet for lunch regularly, she would go with me on business trips, etc. She is a woman of faith and although I know that doesn't mean much to a lot of people, it means something to her.


I was reading back through this thread and wow. What a dumbass I am. Or was. Never again.


----------



## Cromer

GusPolinski said:


> Sounds like you’d have to take a number and get in line behind her. :lol:
> 
> Seriously, she sounds awesome. I’d be one proud dad.


I think she would make a serious mess of him, tbh. He already knows that career Marine dad would make his life miserable if he mistreated her, but she is just as formidable as I lol. I AM one proud dad. My baby girl is everything to me.


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## bandit.45

Cromer did your ex show any real contrition at all. Do you think she knows and acknowledges how much she hurt you? Or was she only upset about losing her nestegg?


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I was reading back through this thread and wow. What a dumbass I am. Or was. Never again.


I don't think you were a dumb ass, you loved your wife and treated her the way a husband should. She was your high school sweetheart. I just think you need to stop protecting her. She is not your wife and has not been for over 10 years. 

You go to church so I will say that when you marry you make a promise to God. You honered and kept that promise your wife didn't. You were celibate for 10 years because you believed in those vows. Your wife couldn't last 2, which is why it's laughable that you blame you time serving your country as an excuse for her behavior. In every way you were a success in the marriage. She was the failure. 

Just watch what happens. It will be a while before your wife's life gets on track if it ever does and it will not be what it could. Your is already starting to get better, and you will be rewarded for your faithfulness even if your wife didn't. 

However one word of caution. Do some research on codependency just to be sure you don't suffer from that. Codependent people tend to take being treated unfairly as their responsibly. This stops them from having strong boundaries, they think, well this is not right but I probably made my spouse do this so I will just suffer and not call them on their bull****. Make sure you don't continue that dynamic if it was their before. I suspect it might have been because of the ease in which you excuse your wife's pitiful behavior. She made vows and you had every right to expect she keep them. She completely abused you and used your vows to steal from you, money, sex, and time. If you want to have a good relationship their needs to be some push-pull. Both people need to have expectations, as it keeps the spouses on their toes. 

Also, if I were you I would stop romanticizing your relationship with your ex wife. The way you write about her, you may have had that relationship with her for 20 years but as soon as she ****ed that guy, she became a real ******* to you. You should see her that way, it will do better for your next relationship if there is not some idealized memory of her hanging over it. She doesn't need to be in your life except around your kids and frankly she shouldn't be. That is not fair to anyone who is with you. Remember you could marry the next one and have another 30 years with that person.

One last thing. As you say "I will never trust anyone again" is not the lesson to learn from this. The lesson is you can have the worst thing done to you by someone who you trusted whole heartily. Go through something so awful, and in a years time be having a wonderful life, shagging in the grass. There is no reason that if it happened again you would be alright again. The lesson is if you could get through what your wife did to you, you can get through anything. Love or relationships are not so hard to find, that you need to stay in a bad one or fear that if one blows up that your life is over. So trust if they earn it, always verify, but don't fear that if it doesn't work out or even if they cheat your life will end, because it didn't. And it won't. And get a prenup!


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## Cromer

bandit.45 said:


> Cromer did your ex show any real contrition at all. Do you think she knows and acknowledges how much she hurt you? Or was she only upset about losing her nestegg?


I think she took things with me for granted. Dang how I adored and loved that woman. Damn. I think that she thought that I would always be there because of my family history. She knew that I would never leave because of the kids and how important it was for me to be a full-time dad. I didn't have a dad growing up. Instead, I saw my mother cycle men through our house and it was mostly abusive to my sister and I. As for contrition, I do think that she's genuinely regretful.

In this forum, someone said something along the lines of I protected her and now she has to face life on her own. Well, I thought my role as a good husband was to protect my wife. I took that seriously. I know it's not PC nowadays but I wanted to protect my woman. It's who I am. And yes, maybe I'm still doing it because I cannot throw away a human being who happens to be the mother of my children.

I honestly don't think money was an issue with her. I think she just got comfortable and didn't want to realize how important this issue was to me, tried to avoid it, then was completely shocked when everything happened because I stopped talking about it. If she could take everything back I know she would, but that's not the world we're living in, is it?


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I think she took things with me for granted. Dang how I adored and loved that woman. Damn. I think that she thought that I would always be there because of my family history. She knew that I would never leave because of the kids and how important it was for me to be a full-time dad. I didn't have a dad growing up. Instead, I saw my mother cycle men through our house and it was mostly abusive to my sister and I. As for contrition, I do think that she's genuinely regretful.
> 
> In this forum, someone said something along the lines of I protected her and now she has to face life on her own. Well, I thought my role as a good husband was to protect my wife. I took that seriously. I know it's not PC nowadays but I wanted to protect my woman. It's who I am. And yes, maybe I'm still doing it because I cannot throw away a human being who happens to be the mother of my children.
> 
> I honestly don't think money was an issue with her. I think she just got comfortable and didn't want to realize how important this issue was to me, tried to avoid it, then was completely shocked when everything happened because I stopped talking about it. If she could take everything back I know she would, but that's not the world we're living in, is it?


In 2 years your love will just be a memory, you will remember you loved her but you won't feel it. 

They are always regretful, but if they could really get what they do they wouldn't do it in the first place. 

Has she at least apologized to you, in a way where she acknowledges how she took advantage of you? Did she try to have seduce you or suggest counseling which she was so against before?


----------



## Satya

Cromer said:


> I was reading back through this thread and wow. What a dumbass I am. Or was. Never again.


No you weren't. You were a human being.
You still are.


----------



## Don't Panic

Cromer said:


> In this forum, someone said something along the lines of I protected her and now she has to face life on her own. Well, I thought my role as a good husband was to protect my wife. I took that seriously. *I know it's not PC nowadays but I wanted to protect my woman. * It's who I am. And yes, maybe I'm still doing it because I cannot throw away a human being who happens to be the mother of my children.
> 
> I honestly don't think money was an issue with her. I think she just got comfortable and didn't want to realize how important this issue was to me, tried to avoid it, then was completely shocked when everything happened because I stopped talking about it. If she could take everything back I know she would, but that's not the world we're living in, is it?


That quality is one of the things I love about my husband (also former military). The males in his family are protective towards the females in general, and across family ties...wives, daughters, sisters, mother, nieces. There have been no affairs AFAIK, no divorces, the marriages are now 20+ years or longer with the youngest generation just beginning their own unions. The women (my SILs) are accomplished, confident, attractive and speak highly of their husbands, you can see the mutual love and respect. These are not faked "let's go to a marriage retreat and reflect on how great things are while not having sex for ten years". That cruel facade is on your X, not you. 

Not PC? Pffft who cares! Keep being protective. And I agree with SoKillMe that you're clearly strong enough to trust again. It's rare and commendable that you are not willing to crush someone who is so horribly broken. Well done.


----------



## Cromer

Don't Panic said:


> That quality is one of the things I love about my husband (also former military). The males in his family are protective towards the females in general, and across family ties...wives, daughters, sisters, mother, nieces. There have been no affairs AFAIK, no divorces, the marriages are now 20+ years or longer with the youngest generation just beginning their own unions. The women (my SILs) are accomplished, confident, attractive and speak highly of their husbands, you can see the mutual love and respect. These are not faked "let's go to a marriage retreat and reflect on how great things are while not having sex for ten years". That cruel facade is on your X, not you.
> 
> Not PC? Pffft who cares! Keep being protective. And I agree with SoKillMe that you're clearly strong enough to trust again. It's rare and commendable that you are not willing to crush someone who is so horribly broken. Well done.


Thanks for the words. Now that I've thought about it, the greatest compliment a woman can give to me is to say she feels safe with me. Frankly, I like having a woman in my life who wants to be protected. Maybe that's not so weird after all lol.


----------



## MEM2020

The desire to be trusted, is very powerful. 




Cromer said:


> Thanks for the words. Now that I've thought about it, the greatest compliment a woman can give to me is to say she feels safe with me. Frankly, I like having a woman in my life who wants to be protected. Maybe that's not so weird after all lol.


----------



## Uselessmale

Elizabeth001 said:


> One of the things I have repeatedly said over the last few years of my life is that it sucks being lonely, but being lonely inside a marriage is hell.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’m no sensitive man but I 100% agree with this. Being married and lonely is HELL and physically exhausting and emotionally wringing.


----------



## bandit.45

Cromer said:


> I think she took things with me for granted. Dang how I adored and loved that woman. Damn. I think that she thought that I would always be there because of my family history. She knew that I would never leave because of the kids and how important it was for me to be a full-time dad. I didn't have a dad growing up. Instead, I saw my mother cycle men through our house and it was mostly abusive to my sister and I. As for contrition, I do think that she's genuinely regretful.
> 
> In this forum, someone said something along the lines of I protected her and now she has to face life on her own. Well, I thought my role as a good husband was to protect my wife. I took that seriously. I know it's not PC nowadays but I wanted to protect my woman. It's who I am. And yes, maybe I'm still doing it because I cannot throw away a human being who happens to be the mother of my children.
> 
> I honestly don't think money was an issue with her. I think she just got comfortable and didn't want to realize how important this issue was to me, tried to avoid it, then was completely shocked when everything happened because I stopped talking about it. If she could take everything back I know she would, but that's not the world we're living in, is it?


You give her too much credit. 

No sane woman, who really cared about her husband and marriage, would cut him off sexually. Think about that. Stand back and look at the totality of her actions. What kind of woman would choose complete celibacy and total lack of intimacy for the rest of her life, after having an affair...no matter how much she became attached to her affair partner? Only a very small percentage of women like your wife would ever do something like this. It goes against the basic biological human need for sex and intimacy. No she never ended the affair. She was continuing with this affair in her heart, all the way up until the point you discovered what she had done. 

No, this wasn't her just sliding into a new lifestyle of celibacy. She chose to do this to you, knowing full well she was hurting and neglecting you. For what? To honor the memory of a scumbag who used her and tried everything he could to destroy her marriage and family? 

Oh no no no... No this was a rare and insidious evil intent my friend. You were being exploited and deliberately abused and neglected by her. Sorry, I feel no sympathy for her. None. I hope for your sake that she dies fat, miserable and alone... because she deserves it.

My hope is that you will, in the next coming months or years, find the righteous anger that you should be showing towards her now. Fury...seething fury is what I would be feeling.


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## bandit.45

Uselessmale said:


> I’m no sensitive man but I 100% agree with this. Being married and lonely is HELL and physically exhausting and emotionally wringing.


To describe this as loneliness would be to minimize this. 

He was imprisoned.


----------



## TAMAT

Cromer,

Thanks for serving, an indirect cost of your service has been your loss of your marriage and of years of your sex life.

When I was a kid my cousins 2nd husband, a navy officer, was disliked by the men in the family and I never knew why. As it turned out he was my cousins affair partner and she left her fellow navy officers husband to be with him. 

I think those WWII vets looked upon anyone who would have an affair with a soldiers wife or girlfriend as a kind of traitor. 

If the OM was in the service it might have been possible to court marshal him.

Tamat


----------



## As'laDain

Cromer said:


> Okay, I hope this isn't TMI.
> 
> She is 48 with two adult children. Her husband was her first until the divorce 6 years ago, and she's had two partners since. Since my divorce, I had two one-night-stands that were completely unsatisfying believe it or not for a sex-starved man. Shortly after my divorce was final, we met at a church social for singles.
> 
> She and I joke that we are "double nickels", basically each of us being a "5" on the looks scale. I think she is gorgeous and one incredible lady. She is smart, sassy, doesn't take crap from anyone, accomplished, and loves for me to take charge because she's in charge every day at work. She also has a great body, and my definition of a great body is a woman with just a few extra pounds. That may not be politically correct but it's working for us LOL.
> 
> After four dates I invited her to the house for dinner on a Friday night. We end up in bed all weekend. Actually, all over the house all weekend. When she left to go to work on Monday morning she basically said that she had no idea how much a man could "appreciate" her and her body. In the time since she admits that she has stepped up her sexual game far beyond anything she's done before, and I have to tell you that I am one happy camper.
> 
> Both of us are enjoying each other but are trying to avoid the emotional entanglement thing. My gut is telling me she's not doing very good at it, and neither am I. * But, I will never trust again and neither will she*. We're taking it one day at a time but she is sorta moving in...


you know, the thing about trust is that it is literally impossible to trust another person. we cannot, we can only trust our judgement and our biases about them. it hurts to say that our judgement is wrong. but if we can accept that our judgement can be wrong, then we wont feel so hurt when we find out.

if your lady friend ever hurts you someway, remember that your judgment can be wrong, and that is ok. it will allow you to move on much easier.

though, i think you understand this now...


----------



## DustyDog

john117 said:


> They rarely believe it, and at the end of the day coerced intimacy under threat of divorce is pointless.


I disagree. I never had this problem, but friends of mine did. One woman told me "when my husband told me directly that this was an absolute need, I realized I was being selfish. After all, if he'd failed to be a financial provider, or if he was incapable of doing the house maintenance, I'd have not wanted him as a husband, so why was I the only one who could have absolute requirements?" I asked her if it didn't feel forced and she said "if it's done because you love someone, it's not forced. He has never liked work, but he's never complained either, and I know that without a family, he knows how to live very frugally and would have worked a lot less".

That's just one woman...others have said similar things.

I dislike maintaining a kitchen. To someone who's capable of what I am, it's menial work, very servant-like. My new GF has never had it in her to clean up after herself in the kitchen, and she has health issues that do make it somewhat painful. And the teenagers are just as bad. So, every morning, I clean the kitchen, to a restaurant grade. Takes two hours. I can't stand the work, but i do it because I love the family...and therefore it does not feel forced.

There are very few absolutes in the world, and simply doing something because someone you love wants you do is not absolutely the same as being forced.


----------



## DustyDog

As'laDain said:


> you know, the thing about trust is that it is literally impossible to trust another person. we cannot, we can only trust our judgement and our biases about them. it hurts to say that our judgement is wrong. but if we can accept that our judgement can be wrong, then we wont feel so hurt when we find out.
> 
> if your lady friend ever hurts you someway, remember that your judgment can be wrong, and that is ok. it will allow you to move on much easier.
> 
> though, i think you understand this now...


That's not the usual way of looking trust.

Trust is a choice. And it's not 100% - trusting someone isn't about believing they never lie, it's more about believing that what they do and say is done with everybody's best interests in their heart. Our brain actually prevents us from telling some truths, because we think they'll be too painful for someone else.

We do 'levels' of trust. I trust a stranger to not hurt me in the first five seconds. I trust a cashier to hand me the correct change. I trust, when I go out on a date, that most of what she says to me is true, while trusting that she is also trying to show me her best side - after all, she agreed to go on a date with me, so she has high hopes. I trust that every person I meet has values and goals and if I get to know those things better, then I am going to be better able to interact with those people in the future.

And, trust is one of those weird things that works both ways - people who, in general, don't trust others end up not being trustworthy. Without thinking about it or realizing it, their lack of trust for others causes them to behave in ways that make them not trustworthy.

Here's an example I see over and over.

Former workmate Tom trusted nobody. He was working on a project and needed some information from Bradley. He contacts Bradley and says I need to understand something...Bradley says it's not a short answer, how about we get together today at 2pm and I'll show you the background information, how we got to this point and then I would love your help in getting past it? Tom says fine, and they agree on 2pm.

At 2pm, I see Tom and say "aren't you supposed to meet with Bradley?" to which he says "I doubt if he really understands what I need, so I'm not going." He had canceled. Bradley now things that Tom, whose job is to fix the problem, isn't going to. Bradley had trust in Tom, but Tom's very behavior diminished the trust Bradley had in him. Although, Bradley is a trusting person and when I spoke with him, he said "I figured Tom either had something else come up or he figured it out on his own." Tom, for his part, never got the task done and I had to assign it to someone else. Tom still thinks he is a trustworthy person, but he doens't trust anybody else.

Over and over these things exist. Nobody can love you more than you love yourself. Nobody can trust you more than you trust others. Nobody can be more truthful to you than you are truthful with them - because if you lie, then people are responding to false information when talking to you.

There must be a dozen things like trust, love, respect, etc, that we really want out of others, without realizing that we will pretty much get back exactly what we offer in those areas.

DD


----------



## Cromer

When I say that I will never trust again, I mean allow myself to be put into a position to be hurt by someone else. Although, I think that is easier said than done.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Cromer,


was she ever remorseful, willing to work hard on the marriage, asking for forgiveness?


----------



## Taxman

Cromer
All due respect, but your ex-wife deserves what has happened. To do to you what she did shows near sociopathic disregard, even a touch of resentment. I hope no one ever looks her way again, and the weight gain puts her on "My 600Lb Life". She has the nerve to cry that you found someone new? What she is experiencing now is payback You are right, not your circus not your monkeys. I have a good friend. His wife decided that at age 50, she had enough sex. She closed her legs and told him that sex in their relationship was done. He tried mightily. He loved her with all of his heart. Then, after five years, he was wiping an old cell phone, when her FB account opened to him. There he read the account of an affair she had at work. It was physical, it had ended when she turned 50, he had dumped her for another woman. Her anger and arrogance, he discovered, were levelled at him as she projected her anger at the AP onto him. Hurriedly, he called a number of his friends, me included. We decided to go away for that weekend. (I let my wife in on it immediately, and she suggested that we get him out of town and do an intervention if needed) During that weekend, he decided that his marriage ended five years earlier, she just did not have the decency to let him know. His anger arrived on Saturday night, and we drank siginificantly and indulged in a lot of grass. At first he wanted to punch her out, and find her AP and end him. We said that the best thing to do, was to permanently f!!k her over. So, he came home to the scowling *****, and was all smiles and lovey dovey. Whenever she threw **** at him, he smiled and took it. Quietly, we moved assets out and into trusts (It is what I do), money in their accounts was drying up at an amazing pace. We even arranged for someone to "rob" them. She did not notice that the engagement ring and a few pieces were missing. Those loving presents were put into a safety deposit box, known only to me, and could not be opened unless I got a password. She was not in the least suspicious. In fact, he was causing her to lapse into a state of complacency. That is what he wanted, worse than anything.

He waited for the right time. It was a Friday night, and of course, he was once again making supper. She was on the couch again watching TV. He suggested that they have sex after dinner. She was incredulous, and said that he was out to lunch. Then he said, "I guess that you should really be calling x___. That made her sit up and take notice. Yup, I know all about it. She said at that moment, she shlt herself. He continued, he told her that he wanted to know why she closed up shop, and this discovery, has ended it for him. He said that he regretted what he must say, however, he said that her actions since that time, convinced him that he no longer loved her, he didn't hate her, he just did not feel anything for her any longer. He said that he had already secured another place to live, and was leaving. She went bat-**** crazy. She ripped off her clothing and demanded that he have sex with her. He said that was too little and way too late. She started running against the wall to put bruises on her, and she threatened to have him arrested. He said, fine, if you want to play dirty, he called her mother on speed dial, told her that they were divorcing, and it was all because her daughter had an affair, and refused sex for five years. Her mother said the was an idiot, and deserved the divorce. It has been years. She is now with a very much older man. It aint love, it's convenience. He was looking for a nurse and she was looking for a purse. My bud says that she proved to be very much a wh0re, then used the Adam Sandler wrinkled balls across the nose line. She had a good marriage, and it was taken away from her as a consequence.


----------



## 3putt

Taxman said:


> Cromer
> All due respect, but your ex-wife deserves what has happened. To do to you what she did shows near sociopathic disregard, even a touch of resentment. I hope no one ever looks her way again, and the weight gain puts her on "My 600Lb Life". She has the nerve to cry that you found someone new? You are right, not your circus not your monkeys. I have a good friend. His wife decided that at age 50, she had enough sex. She closed her legs and told him that sex in their relationship was done. He tried mightily. He loved her with all of his heart. Then, after five years, he was wiping an old cell phone, when her FB account opened to him. There he read the account of an affair she had at work. It was physical, it had ended when she turned 50, he had dumped her for another woman. Her anger and arrogance, he discovered, were levelled at him as she projected her anger at the AP onto him. Hurriedly, he called a number of his friends, me included. We decided to go away for that weekend. (I let my wife in on it immediately, and she suggested that we get him out of town and do an intervention if needed) During that weekend, he decided that his marriage ended five years earlier, she just did not have the decency to let him know. His anger arrived on Saturday night, and we drank siginificantly and indulged in a lot of grass. At first he wanted to punch her out, and find her AP and end him. We said that the best thing to do, was to permanently f!!k her over. So, he came home to the scowling *****, and was all smiles and lovey dovey. Whenever she threw **** at him, he smiled and took it. Quietly, we moved assets out and into trusts (It is what I do), money in their accounts was drying up at an amazing pace. We even arranged for someone to "rob" them. She did not notice that the engagement ring and a few pieces were missing. Those loving presents were put into a safety deposit box, known only to me, and could not be opened unless I got a password. She was not in the least suspicious. In fact, he was causing her to lapse into a state of complacency. That is what he wanted, worse than anything.
> 
> He waited for the right time. It was a Friday night, and of course, he was once again making supper. She was on the couch again watching TV. He suggested that they have sex after dinner. She was incredulous, and said that he was out to lunch. Then he said, "I guess that you should really be calling x___. That made her sit up and take notice. Yup, I know all about it. She said at that moment, she shlt herself. He continued, he told her that he wanted to know why she closed up shop, and this discovery, has ended it for him. He said that he regretted what he must say, however, he said that her actions since that time, convinced him that he no longer loved her, he didn't hate her, he just did not feel anything for her any longer. He said that he had already secured another place to live, and was leaving. She went bat-**** crazy. She ripped off her clothing and demanded that he have sex with her. He said that was too little and way too late. She started running against the wall to put bruises on her, and she threatened to have him arrested. He said, fine, if you want to play dirty, he called her mother on speed dial, told her that they were divorcing, and it was all because her daughter had an affair, and refused sex for five years. Her mother said the was an idiot, and deserved the divorce. It has been years. She is now with a very much older man. It aint love, it's convenience. He was looking for a nurse and she was looking for a purse. My bud says that she proved to be very much a wh0re, then used the Adam Sandler wrinkled balls across the nose line. She had a good marriage, and it was taken away from her as a consequence.


----------



## MEM2020

Cromer,
It’s ok to be afraid. Over time, your new partner will either prove she is trustworthy, or not. You will however find that her desire to be trusted is every bit as strong as yours. This desire for trust is interwoven with the desire to love and be loved. 





Cromer said:


> When I say that I will never trust again, I mean allow myself to be put into a position to be hurt by someone else. Although, I think that is easier said than done.


----------



## MEM2020

M2 and I had a sort of similar - situation. Though - my response timeline was a bit shorter than yours. I took her to the mat on day five instead of day 4,000. M2 was like C2, she wanted me to be her safety net, plan B guy. 

And on day 5 - upon discovering that my reaction to that was - that I would outsource sex going forward - she decided within the space of 30minutes that it was better for both of us, for her to retain me as her Plan A guy. Followed by weeks of hysterical bonding sex. 





Cromer said:


> I think she took things with me for granted. Dang how I adored and loved that woman. Damn. I think that she thought that I would always be there because of my family history. She knew that I would never leave because of the kids and how important it was for me to be a full-time dad. I didn't have a dad growing up. Instead, I saw my mother cycle men through our house and it was mostly abusive to my sister and I. As for contrition, I do think that she's genuinely regretful.
> 
> In this forum, someone said something along the lines of I protected her and now she has to face life on her own. Well, I thought my role as a good husband was to protect my wife. I took that seriously. I know it's not PC nowadays but I wanted to protect my woman. It's who I am. And yes, maybe I'm still doing it because I cannot throw away a human being who happens to be the mother of my children.
> 
> I honestly don't think money was an issue with her. I think she just got comfortable and didn't want to realize how important this issue was to me, tried to avoid it, then was completely shocked when everything happened because I stopped talking about it. If she could take everything back I know she would, but that's not the world we're living in, is it?


----------



## Cromer

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and the time you've taken to respond. I debated posting this but what the heck.

Today I found out something interesting. Yesterday I texted my oldest daughter and asked if she told her sister and brother the whole story about the divorce, and she said that she did. Both of them called me today and I had very long conversations with them. My son (youngest, in college) was the hardest to talk to, he has taken all of this very hard but understands. My other daughter was much more harsh about her mother than he. Then my oldest called and said that a couple of weeks ago she told her grandmother (XMiL). I was floored.

The way it played out was her grandmother called her and was upset and worried about my XWW (I guess I should use that term now). She then blamed me for making my XWW a mess, said she thought that I was a good man but she was wrong, and other general trash talking. My daughter couldn't take it anymore and spilled all of the beans. My daughter didn't tell me because she regretted saying anything, that she thought it wasn't her place, and she thought I'd be upset. But, she was very angry with her grandmother for disrespecting her dad. She is also still angry at her mother. Of course, I can't get mad at my baby girl for looking out for me.

Women and drama, they seem to go hand in hand in my life LOL.

PS. All of them understood why I didn't want to tell the whole story.


----------



## Cromer

Lostinthought61 said:


> Cromer,
> 
> 
> was she ever remorseful, willing to work hard on the marriage, asking for forgiveness?


That's complicated. I think she is remorseful at losing her "married" life, it was comfortable, she had a lot of freedom, and I was always there for her. But what I really think she is remorseful about is losing a best friend, not a husband. That's what we'd come down to in our marriage. When she got served, she definitely got the wakeup call and said she would do anything to save the marriage; that she never thought it would come to a divorce. But frankly, I had checked out a long time earlier. I stayed until the last was in college, and I just didn't want to be married to her anymore.

She is definitely remorseful at losing all of the history and our social circle, she said this a lot. We had so, so many stories, experiences, and memories together. Our experience was quite remarkable. We lived overseas for a total of 7 years, did a ton of traveling (we visited all 50 states, saw glow worms in a cave in New Zealand, spent two days at China's National Museum, hiked in Alaska, ate our way through Southern France, on and on and on). They are still there of course but now is it different. 

I hate not finishing the growing old part with the person I shared all of that with over the years. It feels wasted if that makes any sense. Not to mention, it is hard being careful about how I talk about what I've experienced with the gf, even though she asks tons of questions. I think she is envious of what my XWW had during those years. She wants to travel and has never been out of the country, she hasn't had much time to do it because of work/family, money, and her XWH wasn't interested in traveling. It is a strange place to be, that is with someone new and has had a much different life experience.

So remorseful? Yes, but not at losing a husband.


----------



## Satya

Cromer said:


> I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and the time you've taken to respond. I debated posting this but what the heck.
> 
> Today I found out something interesting. Yesterday I texted my oldest daughter and asked if she told her sister and brother the whole story about the divorce, and she said that she did. Both of them called me today and I had very long conversations with them. My son (youngest, in college) was the hardest to talk to, he has taken all of this very hard but understands. My other daughter was much more harsh about her mother than he. Then my oldest called and said that a couple of weeks ago she told her grandmother (XMiL). I was floored.
> 
> The way it played out was her grandmother called her and was upset and worried about my XWW (I guess I should use that term now). She then blamed me for making my XWW a mess, said she thought that I was a good man but she was wrong, and other general trash talking. My daughter couldn't take it anymore and spilled all of the beans. My daughter didn't tell me because she regretted saying anything, that she thought it wasn't her place, and she thought I'd be upset. But, she was very angry with her grandmother for disrespecting her dad. She is also still angry at her mother. Of course, I can't get mad at my baby girl for looking out for me.
> 
> Women and drama, they seem to go hand in hand in my life LOL.
> 
> PS. All of them understood why I didn't want to tell the whole story.


Good on your daughter for setting the record straight. So many people are just incapable of being objective or even open to possibilities until they get a slap in the face with the truth.

People who want to hide their real nature will rally behind anyone who will support their lies. Your daughter is a very upstanding person by not allowing it.


----------



## snerg

Cromer said:


> I was reading back through this thread and wow. What a dumbass I am. Or was. Never again.


No.

You believed you had a faithful wife.

You trusted that she was a faithful wife.

You had no experience in dealing with a cheater. How would you know what to look for or expect?

Naive? Possibly.

Dumbass. Not in the least.


----------



## MEM2020

Everyone thinks their spouse is loyal til they discover otherwise. 

My view is - that - the best move is to agree with a partner who insists sex isn’t important. And let them know that - since it isn’t important you are outsourcing. 

This reverses the polarity of conversation - because now they are threatening divorce unless you agree to be celibate. 

If my choices are to agree to involuntary celibacy or let someone leave me, that’s not a hard choice: by by now




snerg said:


> No.
> 
> You believed you had a faithful wife.
> 
> You trusted that she was a faithful wife.
> 
> You had no experience in dealing with a cheater. How would you know what to look for or expect?
> 
> Naive? Possibly.
> 
> Dumbass. Not in the least.


----------



## Txquail

Cromer,

Im really happy your life has turned around. I will never live in a sexless marriage nor will I live with a woman who cheats on me. My current wife knows this and has sworn she would never break our vows. Been there, done it and got the tee shirt.

In my current marriage, we have detailed billing so we can see numbrs that each phone calls and txts. All passwords are given to each other. No personal bank accounts and each phone has tracking software installed. She can check on me and I on her. 

Affairs destroy marriages, the lead the cheater to shun the other partner. I cant imagine not having sex for 10 years. Well at least you know now its because she couldnt keep her hands off another guy.

If you know how to contact the OMW, I would tell her about the affair. Doesnt matter if it was before they were married or not. At least she will know to watch her husband and not find out about it 30 years later.


----------



## TAMAT

Cromer,

You wrote, *I texted my oldest and asked if she told her sister and brother. I just got a response and of course, she did. She said that she thought it was important for her sister and brother to know the truth about their mom and dad. Dang.*

I glad the kids now, please make sure they also know it was not their fault in any way, the affair was 100% your W's choice. There is also a chance your kids may have seen your exW with the OM and were sworn to secrecy by your W make sure they know you don't blame them. 

One of the consequences of infidelity is a loss of reputation, this is part of the risk she took, it may take her a few years to get over it, but how does it compare with the loss of years of love you endured.

Did you ever confront or expose the OM?

Tamat


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> That's complicated. I think she is remorseful at losing her "married" life, it was comfortable, she had a lot of freedom, and I was always there for her. But what I really think she is remorseful about is losing a best friend, not a husband. That's what we'd come down to in our marriage. When she got served, she definitely got the wakeup call and said she would do anything to save the marriage; that she never thought it would come to a divorce. But frankly, I had checked out a long time earlier. I stayed until the last was in college, and I just didn't want to be married to her anymore.
> 
> She is definitely remorseful at losing all of the history and our social circle, she said this a lot. We had so, so many stories, experiences, and memories together. Our experience was quite remarkable. We lived overseas for a total of 7 years, did a ton of traveling (we visited all 50 states, saw glow worms in a cave in New Zealand, spent two days at China's National Museum, hiked in Alaska, ate our way through Southern France, on and on and on). They are still there of course but now is it different.
> 
> I hate not finishing the growing old part with the person I shared all of that with over the years. It feels wasted if that makes any sense. Not to mention, it is hard being careful about how I talk about what I've experienced with the gf, even though she asks tons of questions. I think she is envious of what my XWW had during those years. She wants to travel and has never been out of the country, she hasn't had much time to do it because of work/family, money, and her XWH wasn't interested in traveling. It is a strange place to be, that is with someone new and has had a much different life experience.
> 
> So remorseful? Yes, but not at losing a husband.


So really your answer is no, because losing a husband is a selfish remorse and really has nothing to do with you. Actually I am not surprised, just imagine if she had put half the effort into your marriage as she did into that young guy. Again your wife grew into a jerk. Everyone who has posted about her is right she gets what she deserves. I hope you meet a nice women to have 30 more years of adventures with.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Pisses me off that she got away with a con job for 10 years. Let this be a lesson to anyone in a sexless marriage. Figure out the underlying reason NOW. Investigate. If you don't get closure, MOVE ON. Don't wait for things to get better with someone who apparently couldn't care less that she's making you feel worthless.

Cromer's story reminds me of this elaborate con job over at SI: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=614285&HL=61076

This guys wife is also losing her marbles. Honestly, what do these cheater's expect after they're exposed?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Cromer said:


> When I say that I will never trust again, I mean allow myself to be put into a position to be hurt by someone else. Although, I think that is easier said than done.


Welcome back Cromer, I had always hoped we'd get an update from you. I'm glad for your changes! And I also get why it's sad and hard to think of not being able to grow old with the same person. That pain fades with time and more new experiences.

On the quote above I just wanted to say....we really cannot do anything that ensures we will never be hurt by someone else. So please just get used to that right now. It's part of romantic and sexual relationships. Now that you're back in the ocean, you have had a taste of how easy it is to swim and fish. That feels exhilarating! But please know that having one of your fins or your snout chomped on is also common in the ocean and you are lucky to escape with your life sometimes. Yet all of that is exhilarating as well! 

I really don't think people mean to hurt us. Its just that it is literally a jungle/ocean out there and in the end, it's every animal for itself. 

I've been dating for two years now after a really sad divorce and my heart would never withstand that kind of pain again. So I'm dating and accepting that things come and go and I do get hurt and so do they. But I can control the level of hurt. I do that by simply understanding that people come and go and things change and accepting it.

I know that I'll be with someone in a fully committed relationship again someday and it will last forever and birds will sing, etc. I am not afraid to love to deeply again. I'm not even afraid to be hurt again because we all know that even in the best case scenario where you live happily ever after...one of you is still going to leave by dying first. 

Endings are built in to all relationships. If we can just accept this with grace and also accept a bite on the snout once in awhile, we will minimize the amount of hurt we feel. 

The amount of fun and love and great sex we have can exceed the pain hundreds of times over, as you are finding out right now. Great sex actually is the fountain of youth!!!!


----------



## Taxman

Ambivalent One's story is similar, in that it was a long term affair many years ago. Just as heinous, however, she had used the nine years between her lover dying and the present to recommit to the marriage. The end result however is just the same. Ambivalent one has removed her from his property, has given her a property settlement, which is lower than she could have gotten, as they live in an "at-fault" state, and is moving toward a D. The wrinkle in this is, that a short while ago, she made a suicide attempt. The separation is on hold until he feels she is safer. This is what happens when they conceal a long term affair. For AO's wife, her affair is way in the past. For Ambivalent one, it happened in October. She has come to terms with it, and he may never do so. Now, she thought that since she dealt with it, and it is in the past, that consequences are that much harder to bear. Cromer's wife had that realization on the day he handed her the divorce papers. Foolish? Remorse? Bet not. Regret? I bet that she regrets every single time she turned Cromer down. See what that bought her.


----------



## bandit.45

I don't even understand the mentality of a person who would knowingly subject herself and her husband to celibacy for 10 years. I just can’t understand the thought process that could bring a person to that point and think what they are doing is okay on any level. 

This is one seriously messed up woman.


----------



## GusPolinski

Tatsuhiko said:


> Pisses me off that she got away with a con job for 10 years. Let this be a lesson to anyone in a sexless marriage. Figure out the underlying reason NOW. Investigate. If you don't get closure, MOVE ON. Don't wait for things to get better with someone who apparently couldn't care less that she's making you feel worthless.
> 
> Cromer's story reminds me of this elaborate con job over at SI: SurvivingInfidelity.com - Dazed and Confused
> 
> This guys wife is also losing her marbles. Honestly, what do these cheater's expect after they're exposed?


Think that thread is crazy now?

Wait until someone drops a suggestion that AO’s wife tried to off herself so she could be with OM.


----------



## Marc878

GusPolinski said:


> Think that thread is crazy now?
> 
> Wait until someone drops a suggestion that AO’s wife tried to off herself so she could be with OM.


Already happened


----------



## Cromer

Tatsuhiko said:


> Pisses me off that she got away with a con job for 10 years. Let this be a lesson to anyone in a sexless marriage. Figure out the underlying reason NOW. Investigate. If you don't get closure, MOVE ON. Don't wait for things to get better with someone who apparently couldn't care less that she's making you feel worthless.
> 
> Cromer's story reminds me of this elaborate con job over at SI: SurvivingInfidelity.com - Dazed and Confused
> 
> This guys wife is also losing her marbles. Honestly, what do these cheater's expect after they're exposed?


I read through all of the OP's posts (wasn't interested in replies) and looked at the new thread too. How does someone do that for 9 years plus a year of grieving, then expect her H to not feel an ultimate betrayal no matter how long ago it happened? His "lost" 10 years were in the middle of his marriage and my "lost" 10 were at the back end, but we are brothers-in-Hell it seems. I didn't have to read disrespecting emails and see any wifey porn pictures though, thank God.

The advantage I had was that by the time it was over, I was already detached and it didn't take long for me to move on. Although angry about the affair, if I'm honest with myself I'd say that I just didn't care that much. But ever since I started seeing someone my XWW has gone off the rails and apparently completely lost it a couple of weeks ago and had to be heavily medicated. She still thinks that she has a chance. She just needs to move on.

No matter, got an entirely different drama today LOL. Debating posting about it now that I'm unexpectedly alone...


----------



## Livvie

What happened?


----------



## Cromer

Livvie said:


> What happened?


I hope I get this all straight LOL. Last night the woman I've been intimate with for the past two months and I had a very short conversation when I was falling asleep after taking an Ambien. We had just finished a "Hallmark & Chill" evening (explanation later LOL) and I was half out of it. It was something like this:

Her: "What do you think of things?"
Me: "What things?"
Her: "Us things silly man"
Me: "You make me very happy"
Her: "You make me very happy too"

That's what I remember from last night. But this morning, *I didn't remember it right away* as I was in that after-Ambien morning fog. And I probably would've said it differently if I hadn't been half out of it. So at breakfast, she kissed me and said: "I am very happy that I make you happy". I wasn't sure where that came from until later when I remembered the conversation from the night before. So not remembering it, I said something like:

"I am very happy, and it's because of you. Things have moved fast since the divorce, a lot faster than I expected. But for now, I just want to enjoy being happy in the moment with you."

She looked at me and burst into tears, I mean waterworks. I asked what's wrong, "nothing". I ask again, "I'm fine". Then she grabs her keys, says "I can't take this" and heads out the door. She left her purse and phone. I didn't try to stop her and I was worried sick for hours. She never, and I mean NEVER, goes in public without being put together. She is the most meticulous woman when it comes to her look, from nails to hair, that I've seen.

A couple of hours ago I got a text from a mutual friend. She told me that "Claire" (that's what I will call her) was there and asked if we could talk but was afraid to call me herself. Our friend told me that Claire was really upset but was sorry for leaving and wanted to know if it was it all right if she came back over tomorrow (she's staying at friend's tonight). I said, of course, she could come back tonight if she wanted, that I was worried, and definitely wanted to talk to her.

It's my fault. She practically lives here. She has colonized one of the sinks in the master bath, has 6 different kinds of soap in the shower for different parts of the body (it's a big, multi-head setup and it is totally feminized now LOL), in a spare bedroom she has filled a closet+ with clothes and shoes and set up a make-up table/mirror/light with all kinds of various and sundry items I have no clue about. I have dinner ready when she comes here after work (which for the past few weeks is every day), cook breakfast for her when she's getting all dolled up for work, helps me with the kitchen, she vacuums and does the laundry because I suck at it. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love having her here and enjoy her company immensely. But it has happened fast and I'm not sure how I feel about it.

I swear it feels like High School.


----------



## Marc878

I don't see where you did anything wrong here.

However, it's easy to get in a rebound after what you've been through.

Don't do the "pick me dance". I suspect she like most wanted some sort of commitment from you.

There are many many out there don't doubt that.

If this doesn't work out move on. Don't make the same mistake of staying in a bad situation and wasting your life again.


----------



## farsidejunky

"Claire, I care for you, and value the time we spend together. That said, we have moved pretty quickly. Please understand that I am also still healing, and am giving what I am capable. If you are unable to continue this way, I totally understand and will hold no ill will. What I won't allow to happen is this dance of you pressing for more. If that is something you can't avoid, then it is best that we part ways."

You, my man, have just been **** tested.

Be compassionate, but firm. Stand your ground and understand if taking things slower is really that important to you, then losing her is better than compromising.

This is exactly how you ended up in a sexless marriage for 10 years, brother.


----------



## Livvie

farsidejunky said:


> "Claire, I care for you, and value the time we spend together. That said, we have moved pretty quickly. Please understand that I am also still healing, and am giving what I am capable. If you are unable to continue this way, I totally understand and will hold no ill will. What I won't allow to happen is this dance of you pressing for more. If that is something you can't avoid, then it is best that we part ways."
> 
> You, my man, have just been **** tested.
> 
> Be compassionate, but firm. Stand your ground and understand if taking things slower is really that important to you, then losing her is better than compromising.
> 
> This is exactly how you ended up in a sexless marriage for 10 years, brother.


As a woman, I agree with this. You've just come out of a multi decade marriage. And after 2 only months together, you two are kinda acting like you live together. Yikes, a closet, make up table and taken over the shower. I fear someday soon you will wake up and this will feel suffocating. Maybe it's good this happened, as a clarifying event.

I was divorced after a 16 year marriage. I jumped into a very entwined relationship too soon after divorce, it didn't work out well.


----------



## Cromer

@farsidejunky @Livvie She is coming over tonight and wants to talk at the fire pit. That actually means something because it's been our place to "bare our souls". I appreciate your insights. This is my doing and I need to make it clear to her what my expectations are: I won't let the fog of a new, sexually charged relationship determine what is good for me in the long term. Of course, I will say it much differently.

I want to be with her. But dang it I don't want to get hurt. Her having things here makes that very convenient for both of us because I live in the country and she lives on the other side of town with her work sorta in the middle. Plus, it is comfortable for me, maybe that is weird? Should we see less of each other? I'm excited, scared, horny, butterflies in the gut, and head spinning all at the same time LOL. 

I should have seen this coming, but got caught up in the fog myself. I know a lot of people that she knows, and her "bona fides" as a person are impeccable. In fact, the gossip of why my marriage ended is out and everyone who knows us both seem to be happy that Claire found me. She is a woman who appeared to choose a good man to share her life with, but one who ended up spending a fortune with prostitutes and now has a 24 yr old girlfriend. Just FYI, I have no idea why because Claire is amazing, but that's probably the fog talking.

@farsidejunky I tell you this: I'd much rather have this problem than the one I escaped.


----------



## sandcastle

Cromer said:


> I hope I get this all straight LOL. Last night the woman I've been intimate with for the past two months and I had a very short conversation when I was falling asleep after taking an Ambien. We had just finished a "Hallmark & Chill" evening (explanation later LOL) and I was half out of it. It was something like this:
> 
> Her: "What do you think of things?"
> Me: "What things?"
> Her: "Us things silly man"
> Me: "You make me very happy"
> Her: "You make me very happy too"
> 
> That's what I remember from last night. But this morning, *I didn't remember it right away* as I was in that after-Ambien morning fog. And I probably would've said it differently if I hadn't been half out of it. So at breakfast, she kissed me and said: "I am very happy that I make you happy". I wasn't sure where that came from until later when I remembered the conversation from the night before. So not remembering it, I said something like:
> 
> "I am very happy, and it's because of you. Things have moved fast since the divorce, a lot faster than I expected. But for now, I just want to enjoy being happy in the moment with you."
> 
> She looked at me and burst into tears, I mean waterworks. I asked what's wrong, "nothing". I ask again, "I'm fine". Then she grabs her keys, says "I can't take this" and heads out the door. She left her purse and phone. I didn't try to stop her and I was worried sick for hours. She never, and I mean NEVER, goes in public without being put together. She is the most meticulous woman when it comes to her look, from nails to hair, that I've seen.
> 
> A couple of hours ago I got a text from a mutual friend. She told me that "Claire" (that's what I will call her) was there and asked if we could talk but was afraid to call me herself. Our friend told me that Claire was really upset but was sorry for leaving and wanted to know if it was it all right if she came back over tomorrow (she's staying at friend's tonight). I said, of course, she could come back tonight if she wanted, that I was worried, and definitely wanted to talk to her.
> 
> It's my fault. She practically lives here. She has colonized one of the sinks in the master bath, has 6 different kinds of soap in the shower for different parts of the body (it's a big, multi-head setup and it is totally feminized now LOL), in a spare bedroom she has filled a closet+ with clothes and shoes and set up a make-up table/mirror/light with all kinds of various and sundry items I have no clue about. I have dinner ready when she comes here after work (which for the past few weeks is every day), cook breakfast for her when she's getting all dolled up for work, helps me with the kitchen, she vacuums and does the laundry
> 
> I swear it feels like High School.


It is not HS because no one lived together.

I agree- your fault, the woman lives with you , she left her purse on purpose, she is triangulating with friend phonecall and if that was the only thing she has hysteria about then hold onto your ass when she REALLY moves in.

Quit the Ambien- bad stuff with horrific side affects - originally intended for jet lag/ short term usage.


----------



## MEM2020

Most folks aren’t intentionally sadistic. However, some people are highly parasitic. 

And Cromers ex wife definitely fit that mold. I don’t believe she really thought it was ok to do what she did. Her claim that she thought he was ok with it - doesn’t ring true to me. 

And that’s a common theme with parasites. They steadfastly employ willful incomprehension until the host is highlighted beneath the soft red glow of the exit sign at which point they suddenly *acknowledge* that what they’ve been doing isn’t remotely acceptable.

Some folks really are bad people. 




Faithful Wife said:


> Welcome back Cromer, I had always hoped we'd get an update from you. I'm glad for your changes! And I also get why it's sad and hard to think of not being able to grow old with the same person. That pain fades with time and more new experiences.
> 
> On the quote above I just wanted to say....we really cannot do anything that ensures we will never be hurt by someone else. So please just get used to that right now. It's part of romantic and sexual relationships. Now that you're back in the ocean, you have had a taste of how easy it is to swim and fish. That feels exhilarating! But please know that having one of your fins or your snout chomped on is also common in the ocean and you are lucky to escape with your life sometimes. Yet all of that is exhilarating as well!
> 
> I really don't think people mean to hurt us. Its just that it is literally a jungle/ocean out there and in the end, it's every animal for itself.
> 
> I've been dating for two years now after a really sad divorce and my heart would never withstand that kind of pain again. So I'm dating and accepting that things come and go and I do get hurt and so do they. But I can control the level of hurt. I do that by simply understanding that people come and go and things change and accepting it.
> 
> I know that I'll be with someone in a fully committed relationship again someday and it will last forever and birds will sing, etc. I am not afraid to love to deeply again. I'm not even afraid to be hurt again because we all know that even in the best case scenario where you live happily ever after...one of you is still going to leave by dying first.
> 
> Endings are built in to all relationships. If we can just accept this with grace and also accept a bite on the snout once in awhile, we will minimize the amount of hurt we feel.
> 
> The amount of fun and love and great sex we have can exceed the pain hundreds of times over, as you are finding out right now. Great sex actually is the fountain of youth!!!!


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Cromer said:


> It's my fault. She practically lives here. She has colonized one of the sinks in the master bath, has 6 different kinds of soap in the shower for different parts of the body (it's a big, multi-head setup and it is totally feminized now LOL), in a spare bedroom she has filled a closet+ with clothes and shoes and set up a make-up table/mirror/light with all kinds of various and sundry items I have no clue about. I have dinner ready when she comes here after work (which for the past few weeks is every day), cook breakfast for her when she's getting all dolled up for work, helps me with the kitchen, she vacuums and does the laundry because I suck at it. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love having her here and enjoy her company immensely. But it has happened fast and I'm not sure how I feel about it.
> 
> I swear it feels like High School.


Wow, all this only two months in?? Have you even agreed to be exclusive at this point, has that been a conversation? She needs to understand that you can still be involved without her moving in!


----------



## Cromer

3Xnocharm said:


> Wow, all this only two months in?? Have you even agreed to be exclusive at this point, has that been a conversation? She needs to understand that you can still be involved without her moving in!


It's been more like three months, but things moved really fast after our first weekend "together," which was two months ago. I am very new to this, but I will only date one person at a time and Claire knows this. She told me the same thing, so I think the exclusivity is implied. Frankly, I am so new at this and no doubt naive. As for the moving in, I originally suggested that she leave some things here for when she comes over to make it easy on her, and it kinda grew from there the last few weeks.


----------



## Marc878

Hold firm. You'll be fine.

If she's as good as you say it'll work itself out.


----------



## sandcastle

Cromer said:


> It's been more like three months, but things moved really fast after our first weekend "together," which was two months ago. I am very new to this, but I will only date one person at a time and Claire knows this. She told me the same thing, so I think the exclusivity is implied. Frankly, I am so new at this and no doubt naive. As for the moving in, I originally suggested that she leave some things here for when she comes over to make it easy on her, and it kinda grew from there the last few weeks.


12 weeks and her clothes are in.
The soap- ok- clothes- Ruh- roh.

No woman is so upset she leaves her purse AND her phone.

You could be getting worked.

Hard.


----------



## Livvie

Cromer said:


> 3Xnocharm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, all this only two months in?? Have you even agreed to be exclusive at this point, has that been a conversation? She needs to understand that you can still be involved without her moving in!
> 
> 
> 
> It's been more like three months, but things moved really fast after our first weekend "together," which was two months ago. I am very new to this, but I will only date one person at a time and Claire knows this. She told me the same thing, so I think the exclusivity is implied. Frankly, I am so new at this and no doubt naive. As for the moving in, I originally suggested that she leave some things here for when she comes over to make it easy on her, and it kinda grew from there the last few weeks.
Click to expand...

Yeah, honestly, a closet plus, and the make up table, after only two months, waaay too fast. Also, you said leave over "a few things" and it sounds like she's moved most of her wardrobe in instead. That's a red flag. Having dinner ready for her every evening after work, breakfast for her every morning. It's like you are faux married.

The danger here is if you ever need some space, etc., the more stuff she has there it's going to be hard to get rid of her. And then she's not even really gone, her STUFF in is your space,/house. I've lived this, I know!! 

She sounds nice, but also maybe not very stable. Her reaction to your comments this morning, with such drama, does not bode well. Another red flag.


----------



## sandcastle

Livvie said:


> Yeah, honestly, a closet plus, and the make up table, after only two months, waaay too fast. Also, you said leave over "a few things" and it sounds like she's moved most of her wardrobe in instead. That's a red flag. Having dinner ready for her every evening after work, breakfast for her every morning. It's like you are faux married.
> 
> The danger here is if you ever need some space, etc., the more stuff she has there it's going to be hard to get rid of her. And then she's not even really gone, her STUFF in is your space,/house. I've lived this, I know!!
> 
> She sounds nice, but also maybe not very stable. Her reaction to your comments this morning, with such drama, does not bode well. Another red flag.


This exactly.

Does this woman not have her own home?

Is she pissing on her tree ? Taking you off the market AND moving into your house without you noticing.

Be afraid- very afraid. And get her **** out of your house tomorrow. Sunday is a great moving day.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I read through all of the OP's posts (wasn't interested in replies) and looked at the new thread too. How does someone do that for 9 years plus a year of grieving, then expect her H to not feel an ultimate betrayal no matter how long ago it happened? His "lost" 10 years were in the middle of his marriage and my "lost" 10 were at the back end, but we are brothers-in-Hell it seems. I didn't have to read disrespecting emails and see any wifey porn pictures though, thank God.
> 
> The advantage I had was that by the time it was over, I was already detached and it didn't take long for me to move on. Although angry about the affair, if I'm honest with myself I'd say that I just didn't care that much. But ever since I started seeing someone my XWW has gone off the rails and apparently completely lost it a couple of weeks ago and had to be heavily medicated. She still thinks that she has a chance. She just needs to move on.
> 
> No matter, got an entirely different drama today LOL. Debating posting about it now that I'm unexpectedly alone...


This is why I think they are just a different species of human. I know that offends people, so be it. I just don't see how they can do it. The guilt would kill me. Right away the guilt would take away all the momentary excitement that would come of it. I will never understand how someone can live with themselves for 9 years, how they can live with themselves in the aftermath. How they can live a life that is a bold face lie to everyone they love. Again, it requires a level of self focus that seems pathological. I understand the temptation, but I will ever understand the follow through, thank God.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I hope I get this all straight LOL. Last night the woman I've been intimate with for the past two months and I had a very short conversation when I was falling asleep after taking an Ambien. We had just finished a "Hallmark & Chill" evening (explanation later LOL) and I was half out of it. It was something like this:
> 
> Her: "What do you think of things?"
> Me: "What things?"
> Her: "Us things silly man"
> Me: "You make me very happy"
> Her: "You make me very happy too"
> 
> That's what I remember from last night. But this morning, *I didn't remember it right away* as I was in that after-Ambien morning fog. And I probably would've said it differently if I hadn't been half out of it. So at breakfast, she kissed me and said: "I am very happy that I make you happy". I wasn't sure where that came from until later when I remembered the conversation from the night before. So not remembering it, I said something like:
> 
> "I am very happy, and it's because of you. Things have moved fast since the divorce, a lot faster than I expected. But for now, I just want to enjoy being happy in the moment with you."
> 
> She looked at me and burst into tears, I mean waterworks. I asked what's wrong, "nothing". I ask again, "I'm fine". Then she grabs her keys, says "I can't take this" and heads out the door. She left her purse and phone. I didn't try to stop her and I was worried sick for hours. She never, and I mean NEVER, goes in public without being put together. She is the most meticulous woman when it comes to her look, from nails to hair, that I've seen.
> 
> A couple of hours ago I got a text from a mutual friend. She told me that "Claire" (that's what I will call her) was there and asked if we could talk but was afraid to call me herself. Our friend told me that Claire was really upset but was sorry for leaving and wanted to know if it was it all right if she came back over tomorrow (she's staying at friend's tonight). I said, of course, she could come back tonight if she wanted, that I was worried, and definitely wanted to talk to her.
> 
> It's my fault. She practically lives here. She has colonized one of the sinks in the master bath, has 6 different kinds of soap in the shower for different parts of the body (it's a big, multi-head setup and it is totally feminized now LOL), in a spare bedroom she has filled a closet+ with clothes and shoes and set up a make-up table/mirror/light with all kinds of various and sundry items I have no clue about. I have dinner ready when she comes here after work (which for the past few weeks is every day), cook breakfast for her when she's getting all dolled up for work, helps me with the kitchen, she vacuums and does the laundry because I suck at it. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love having her here and enjoy her company immensely. But it has happened fast and I'm not sure how I feel about it.
> 
> I swear it feels like High School.


I bet you will be married in a year. And you know what? That's alright, that's life. I suggest you slow down but you probably won't.


----------



## Get Real

I just started reading posts here a few days ago. I think you have won a lot of people's true concern because you deserved more. It was actually cruel for someone to make a choice for you in which you had the bad end of the bargain for 10 years. And you unlike most left her worry free. Good for you. But now everyone is worried because you are on the rebound and going way too fast. Like setting up for a second round of nonsense. 
After what you went through it is great that life has smiled at you. And if this is the next woman of your dreams; if you put the breaks and slow down, she should be OK with that. It may be wise to take some time off. Just give yourself some time alone and then take it slow. Get to know several women. You are very right. A man who is finantially secure, in good shape and not a jerk should have no problem meeting a woman. So be selective, get to know the person well. It seems to me that in the long run you want something fairly solid. But I maybe wrong, you maybe done with solid, and just want to have fun. 
However, even if this is the case, it may be better for you to take your time so she at least is emotionally stable and will not be trading one set of problems for another.
You may have done this already but it could be fun to go out with your kids on a trip, just all of you, cook with them... Make them a part of your new life sance girlfriend first. And please be careful, I have a friend that was getting divorced and before the divorce was final he ended up getting the woman he had started to go out with pregnant. And he was from a well known family where things like this still make the news among their social circle. The wife was the one who left him and he even ended up with heart issues... anyway. 
Best of luck!


----------



## Satya

@Cromer,as a woman, I think that's really too soon for her to be nesting so much with you.

Doing your laundry, cleaning, etc, are her ways of showing her domestic fitness and care for you.

Not a bad thing, but too soon IMO to be identifying so strongly as your partner. All the things you describe show her comfort at becoming a permanent fixture, right now.

Her intentions are clearly too fast, too soon for you. You're on different wavelengths in terms of progress in this respect.

Take it from a woman who twice over did what your gf is doing before learning to slow it down.

She cried because she knows you really don't feel exactly as she does, and when you are trying to nest and bond so strongly, it's a reality that can hit us, hard. 

With Odo, I did NOT nest until he invited me to and when I knew for sure we were a solid item and there was no question that permanency had some commitment attached. That insistence on my part protected me, my feelings, and kept me from making the same mistake a 3rd time.

I'm not blaming you for anything, as long as you've been crystal clear with her from the start.


----------



## GusPolinski

Cromer said:


> I hope I get this all straight LOL. Last night the woman I've been intimate with for the past two months and I had a very short conversation when I was falling asleep after taking an Ambien. We had just finished a "Hallmark & Chill" evening (explanation later LOL) and I was half out of it. It was something like this:
> 
> Her: "What do you think of things?"
> Me: "What things?"
> Her: "Us things silly man"
> Me: "You make me very happy"
> Her: "You make me very happy too"
> 
> That's what I remember from last night. But this morning, *I didn't remember it right away* as I was in that after-Ambien morning fog. And I probably would've said it differently if I hadn't been half out of it. So at breakfast, she kissed me and said: "I am very happy that I make you happy". I wasn't sure where that came from until later when I remembered the conversation from the night before. So not remembering it, I said something like:
> 
> "I am very happy, and it's because of you. Things have moved fast since the divorce, a lot faster than I expected. But for now, I just want to enjoy being happy in the moment with you."
> 
> She looked at me and burst into tears, I mean waterworks. I asked what's wrong, "nothing". I ask again, "I'm fine". Then she grabs her keys, says "I can't take this" and heads out the door. She left her purse and phone. I didn't try to stop her and I was worried sick for hours. She never, and I mean NEVER, goes in public without being put together. She is the most meticulous woman when it comes to her look, from nails to hair, that I've seen.
> 
> A couple of hours ago I got a text from a mutual friend. She told me that "Claire" (that's what I will call her) was there and asked if we could talk but was afraid to call me herself. Our friend told me that Claire was really upset but was sorry for leaving and wanted to know if it was it all right if she came back over tomorrow (she's staying at friend's tonight). I said, of course, she could come back tonight if she wanted, that I was worried, and definitely wanted to talk to her.
> 
> It's my fault. She practically lives here. She has colonized one of the sinks in the master bath, has 6 different kinds of soap in the shower for different parts of the body (it's a big, multi-head setup and it is totally feminized now LOL), in a spare bedroom she has filled a closet+ with clothes and shoes and set up a make-up table/mirror/light with all kinds of various and sundry items I have no clue about. I have dinner ready when she comes here after work (which for the past few weeks is every day), cook breakfast for her when she's getting all dolled up for work, helps me with the kitchen, she vacuums and does the laundry because I suck at it. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love having her here and enjoy her company immensely. But it has happened fast and I'm not sure how I feel about it.
> 
> I swear it feels like High School.


Crazy town.


----------



## cc48kel

I think too soon, too fast!! Your recently divorced--take a breather and enjoy life.


----------



## Openminded

She's moving way too fast and you're letting her. That's not a good idea.


----------



## bandit.45

She's husband hunting my friend. Any woman who moves in that quick is desperate to get a ring on her finger. She'll bang you like a gun and give you all the hot monkey sex you want for now, but in the end she might turn out just like your ex-wife once you marry her.

SLOW THE FECK DOWN....


----------



## Livvie

bandit.45 said:


> She's husband hunting my friend. Any woman who moves in that quick is desperate to get a ring on her finger. She'll bang you like a gun and give you all the hot monkey sex you want for now, but in the end she might turn out just like your ex-wife once you marry her.
> 
> SLOW THE FECK DOWN....


I agree to the first. I've thought of what I think was odd about how fast she moved that much stuff in and the fact that she has spent the past 3 weeks! at your place: Where does she live, house or apartment? I think it's odd she isn't needing to/WANTING be at her own place more often, she kinda abandoned ship, her own ship, for yours. It sounds like she totally ditched her own life/abode and has set up camp in yours as hers. That's a huge red flag. Why was she so quick to abandon her own life?


----------



## Cromer

I should probably start a new thread, but frankly, I appreciate the input I am getting here and don't know if I want to put this anywhere else for now. To answer a couple of questions from a couple of posts, my ladyfriend is a teacher and has been for 25 years. She owns her own home outright.

We were up all Saturday night talking, and it was much needed. It was the most honest dialogue that I've had with anyone in many years. I say dialogue because she was a completely open book, at least it sure as heck seemed like it, and I was too. I will try to summarize without going into too much detail, there was so much. She was beside herself with embarrassment about what happened Saturday.

From her:

- She has not dated for over two years and wasn't looking to date when we met, even though it was a social for singles (she went at her best friend's urging). She was lonely but loves her life and career, and is not looking for a husband. She's planning to retire in 5 years to do some traveling.

- It wasn't her intent to get carried away so quickly, but she said that she has been "utterly swept off her feet" and this both surprised and scared her. No man in her life, other than her father, has treated her with so much respect (my grandmother raised as an old-school Southern Gentleman). It was all so overwhelming and so fast she didn't know how to process it knowing that I was so soon from a divorce and wasn't looking for anything serious when all of this started. She didn't know how to ask how I felt about the situation without scaring me away. 

- She admits to having major self-esteem issues and went through extensive counseling twice before and twice after her divorce. Her XWH cheated on her with two different women during their marriage. They reconciled after the first affair, her reasons were the kids and she still loved him. FYI, our mutual friend told me the story shortly after we met and warned me to be on my best behavior!

- She has been in two relationships since her divorce. Each ended badly because of "porn issues" with both men, and one cheated after they were exclusive. Porn is a deal-breaker for her because her XWH had this problem too. She HATES porn.

- She feels safe and confident in herself with me, something she hasn't felt with someone for a long time. This is the big reason she was so quick to be intimate, at least by her past standards, and so passionate about it.

- She is committed to taking things as they come and will respect any boundaries that I ask her to honor.

For me:

- I told her the whole, sad story about my marriage, including many of the details I had kept to myself. She was shocked. I also told her it was my initial intent to "make up for lost time," but being so casual about intimacy just wasn't for me.

- If she saw herself through my eyes, in the way that I see her, she wouldn't have any self-esteem issues. She is an attractive, accomplished woman who has a lot to be proud of about herself.

- I got swept up too. I had been so lonely in my marriage for so long, I had forgotten what real female companionship was like. There is a real danger that this could be a classic rebound relationship, and only time would sort that out. We had to get past the hormonal fog (thanks, TAM!) and see how we really are together to see if this will work.

- Although I made it known on the first date that I wasn't looking for anything long-term from any relationship, I realize that every signal that I gave to her as things progressed indicated otherwise. This was unfair and I apologized and promised to always be honest with how I felt.

- When the porn issue came up, I gave her my phone and let her look all through it, then we went into the house and let her look at everything on my laptop. I have a lot of objections to porn, but haven't always I admitted. There are a number of reasons but one big one is too many young women have their lives wrecked by a predatory industry. She really teared up at this gesture.

- I am seriously considering downsizing my life, selling this place and getting rid of a lot of "stuff." The more I think about it, the more it is a change I need to make. She needs to understand that I am going through a lot of change and it has only started.

- I treasure our time together, enjoy her companionship immensely, and am very happy with where we are right now. But we should not spend every night together. We each need space. 

Of note, I hadn't explained this before but for the past month, I have been working on a major carpentry project. Several weeks ago she offered to help in any way so she has been here, sometimes bringing dinner and doing other things around the house so I can work outside until dark. She is also learning how to use a miter saw and a router, and she's gotten pretty good.

For us:

- We are only seeing each other right now.
- Weeknight overnights are on hold, but we can still see each other. Friday and Saturday overnights only.
- The shower stuff and a few casual clothes stay, but her work clothes, shoes, and everything else is going back to her place. 
- Her daughter has been staying at her house for the past month, and as she puts it coming over her helps her not to deal with that drama lol.

I left a lot out, but I have to say I can't help to be excited about things. We'll see. Thanks for all of your input and advice for a new divorcee.

PS. I forgot, her birthday is coming up in a few weeks. So, I have to handle the whole "present thing" delicately. Any ideas? The first thing that came to mind was a very nice overnight makeup bag.


----------



## wilson

Cromer said:


> PS. I forgot, her birthday is coming up in a few weeks. So, I have to handle the whole "present thing" delicately. Any ideas? The first thing that came to mind was a very nice overnight makeup bag.


Women like jewelry, so maybe a gold ring with a single diamond to signify that this is the first birthday you're celebrating with her. She'll appreciate something simple like that if you keep it to 1 caret or so. 

It sounds like you had a great heart-to-heart to get things grounded again. It sounds like you have your wits about you. Just keep in mind that the first year or so of a passionate relationship is encompassed in that hormonal fog you mentioned. So even though you now think that honk sound she makes when she sneezes is so adorable, it won't be like that forever. But it does sounds like she's a great woman and hopefully the future remains bright.

As for other birthday ideas, a framed picture of the two of you would probably be good. It's personal without being too intimate.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I should probably start a new thread, but frankly, I appreciate the input I am getting here and don't know if I want to put this anywhere else for now. To answer a couple of questions from a couple of posts, my ladyfriend is a teacher and has been for 25 years. She owns her own home outright.
> 
> We were up all Saturday night talking, and it was much needed. It was the most honest dialogue that I've had with anyone in many years. I say dialogue because she was a completely open book, at least it sure as heck seemed like it, and I was too. I will try to summarize without going into too much detail, there was so much. She was beside herself with embarrassment about what happened Saturday.
> 
> From her:
> 
> - She has not dated for over two years and wasn't looking to date when we met, even though it was a social for singles (she went at her best friend's urging). She was lonely but loves her life and career, and is not looking for a husband. She's planning to retire in 5 years to do some traveling.
> 
> - It wasn't her intent to get carried away so quickly, but she said that she has been "utterly swept off her feet" and this both surprised and scared her. No man in her life, other than her father, has treated her with so much respect (my grandmother raised as an old-school Southern Gentleman). It was all so overwhelming and so fast she didn't know how to process it knowing that I was so soon from a divorce and wasn't looking for anything serious when all of this started. She didn't know how to ask how I felt about the situation without scaring me away.
> 
> - She admits to having major self-esteem issues and went through extensive counseling twice before and twice after her divorce. Her XWH cheated on her with two different women during their marriage. They reconciled after the first affair, her reasons were the kids and she still loved him. FYI, our mutual friend told me the story shortly after we met and warned me to be on my best behavior!
> 
> - She has been in two relationships since her divorce. Each ended badly because of "porn issues" with both men, and one cheated after they were exclusive. Porn is a deal-breaker for her because her XWH had this problem too. She HATES porn.
> 
> - She feels safe and confident in herself with me, something she hasn't felt with someone for a long time. This is the big reason she was so quick to be intimate, at least by her past standards, and so passionate about it.
> 
> - She is committed to taking things as they come and will respect any boundaries that I ask her to honor.
> 
> For me:
> 
> - I told her the whole, sad story about my marriage, including many of the details I had kept to myself. She was shocked. I also told her it was my initial intent to "make up for lost time," but being so casual about intimacy just wasn't for me.
> 
> - If she saw herself through my eyes, in the way that I see her, she wouldn't have any self-esteem issues. She is an attractive, accomplished woman who has a lot to be proud of about herself.
> 
> - I got swept up too. I had been so lonely in my marriage for so long, I had forgotten what real female companionship was like. There is a real danger that this could be a classic rebound relationship, and only time would sort that out. We had to get past the hormonal fog (thanks, TAM!) and see how we really are together to see if this will work.
> 
> - Although I made it known on the first date that I wasn't looking for anything long-term from any relationship, I realize that every signal that I gave to her as things progressed indicated otherwise. This was unfair and I apologized and promised to always be honest with how I felt.
> 
> - When the porn issue came up, I gave her my phone and let her look all through it, then we went into the house and let her look at everything on my laptop. I have a lot of objections to porn, but haven't always I admitted. There are a number of reasons but one big one is too many young women have their lives wrecked by a predatory industry. She really teared up at this gesture.
> 
> - I am seriously considering downsizing my life, selling this place and getting rid of a lot of "stuff." The more I think about it, the more it is a change I need to make. She needs to understand that I am going through a lot of change and it has only started.
> 
> - I treasure our time together, enjoy her companionship immensely, and am very happy with where we are right now. But we should not spend every night together. We each need space.
> 
> Of note, I hadn't explained this before but for the past month, I have been working on a major carpentry project. Several weeks ago she offered to help in any way so she has been here, sometimes bringing dinner and doing other things around the house so I can work outside until dark. She is also learning how to use a miter saw and a router, and she's gotten pretty good.
> 
> For us:
> 
> - We are only seeing each other right now.
> - Weeknight overnights are on hold, but we can still see each other. Friday and Saturday overnights only.
> - The shower stuff and a few casual clothes stay, but her work clothes, shoes, and everything else is going back to her place.
> - Her daughter has been staying at her house for the past month, and as she puts it coming over her helps her not to deal with that drama lol.
> 
> I left a lot out, but I have to say I can't help to be excited about things. We'll see. Thanks for all of your input and advice for a new divorcee.
> 
> PS. I forgot, her birthday is coming up in a few weeks. So, I have to handle the whole "present thing" delicately. Any ideas? The first thing that came to mind was a very nice overnight makeup bag.


Sounds good to me. Take it slow but she doesn't sound crazy or anything like that. It's nice when you meet someone and it stirs feeling in you. The tendency is to hold them close, but the wise thing is to really get to know them long term because sometimes the intense feelings cover up stuff that can cause conflict. She seems cool with that and agrees, all good things in my mind.

As far as gifts go, start paying attention to her right now. Things she likes to do, or interests she has. Get a few ideas from that and then do some web research about nice things to get for people who have interests in those things.


----------



## Steve1000

Cromer said:


> I think she just got comfortable and didn't want to realize how important this issue was to me, tried to avoid it, then was completely shocked when everything happened because I stopped talking about it.


I've been reading your thread and I want to make sure I understand something. Why did your wife not want to have sex with you for the past ten years? I understanding why during her affair, she wouldn't want to, but I don't understand the reason for the abstinence after she and her affair partner ended their relationship.


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## Cromer

Steve1000 said:


> I've been reading your thread and I want to make sure I understand something. Why did your wife not want to have sex with you for the past ten years? I understanding why during her affair, she wouldn't want to, but I don't understand the reason for the abstinence after she and her affair partner ended their relationship.


Frankly, I can't say for sure. The way she put it that it took a long while for her to get over it when OM broke it off, she was depressed, etc. and wasn't interested in sex with me. So it went from "cheating on OM" to just not wanting sex anymore, then it just became the norm. It didn't help that I was gone a lot during subsequent few years. She went to a lot of counseling, and I thought it was just about what had been happening in her family. The more the whole thing finally started coming out made it clear that I had no idea what was going on in her mind and still don't. I never got a lot of details and don't care to know. She made her choice and now she's living with it and I've moved on, in a big way.


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## 3Xnocharm

wilson said:


> Women like jewelry, so maybe a gold ring with a single diamond to signify that this is the first birthday you're celebrating with her. She'll appreciate something simple like that if you keep it to 1 caret or so.


Um... NO...

This is an engagement ring you are describing! Holy lord.


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## Cromer

3Xnocharm said:


> Um... NO...
> 
> This is an engagement ring you are describing! Holy lord.


Buying a diamond for a woman is not a mistake that I plan on making again!


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## GusPolinski

wilson said:


> Women like jewelry, so maybe a gold ring with a single diamond to signify that this is the first birthday you're celebrating with her. She'll appreciate something simple like that if you keep it to 1 caret or so.


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## Cynthia

You're right. She made her choices and now she has to live with them. For her to think that she could treat you that way and you'd be okay with it shows that she is self-absorbed. For a woman who claims to be a strong Christian, that's not a very Christian attitude. Her thinking is messed up. Spending the rest of your life with someone who clearly does not have your best interests at heart, but only her own selfish needs does not sound like a happy life. You made the right choice in divorcing her.



Cromer said:


> Frankly, I can't say for sure. The way she put it that it took a long while for her to get over it when OM broke it off, she was depressed, etc. and wasn't interested in sex with me. So it went from "cheating on OM" to just not wanting sex anymore, then it just became the norm. It didn't help that I was gone a lot during subsequent few years. She went to a lot of counseling, and I thought it was just about what had been happening in her family. The more the whole thing finally started coming out made it clear that I had no idea what was going on in her mind and still don't. I never got a lot of details and don't care to know. She made her choice and now she's living with it and I've moved on, in a big way.


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## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> You're right. She made her choices and now she has to live with them. For her to think that she could treat you that way and you'd be okay with it shows that she is self-absorbed. For a woman who claims to be a strong Christian, that's not a very Christian attitude. Her thinking is messed up. Spending the rest of your life with someone who clearly does not have your best interests at heart, but only her own selfish needs does not sound like a happy life. You made the right choice in divorcing her.


You're right, and I tortured myself over it for such a long time. Once I made the decision and had a good plan, it went so much better emotionally (from my perspective) than I had expected. I feel like I have been set free from a 12-year prison sentence, and it is glorious!


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## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> You're right. And I tortured myself over it for such a long time. Once I made the decision and a had a good plan, it went so much better emotionally (from my perspective) than I had expected. I feel like I have been set free from a 12-year prison sentence, and it is glorious!


It kind of was a prison sentence. You were living in a marriage where you were actively being deceived about what was really going on. She was even counseling, but still did nothing to improve the relationship or show any real concern for you. It was all about her and how she felt. That is not how marriage works and obviously it wasn't working for you.

In the true sense, you have been released and are now free to pursue authentic relationship. This is a gift and I'm so glad that you were able to cut the ties and now your eyes are opened to what was really going on. I don't blame you for not wanting any more details. It's pointless. You know all you need to know; that your ex did not love you, she loved what she got out of you. No one needs to live like that. It ugly and dishonoring.


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## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> I don't blame you for not wanting any more details. It's pointless.


I've gotten asked that question so many times, "don't you want to know all of the details?" or people have said "you need to get the details for closure." Uhh...no. Don't care don't care don't care.

It's the same when people ask if I exposed or am going to expose OM. First, this happened 12 years ago. Second, I had almost made the decision to end my marriage before I knew. Third, yes what she did was dishonorable putting me through 10 years of sexless Hell because of it, but that's behind me and I am looking towards the future. Fourth, she was 43 and married with 3 children, he was 26 and single and looking to get some. Frankly, I hold her more responsible than him, it's just the way I feel. I have no idea what I would gain from trying to blow his life up today, and all I see is it going badly for me or my XWW.

Maybe if I still cared I would have the whole "mind movie" problem. But I haven't and don't. In fact, finding the root cause just validated my decision, and I was already detached from her. I didn't realize it until I literally felt "nothing" for her but pity in the end. From what I understand the "mind movie" problem is part of what my XWW is suffering from re: my new ladyfriend. That is a whole 'nother story and not sure if I should start a thread about the "Psycho XWW who tracked my ladyfriend down on fb and started some shat." Geez.


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## Cynthia

I can understand you not wanting to expose. The only reason I think it would be of any value would be if he was married at the time and is still married to the same woman. If she doesn't know, she could be going through difficulties due to not knowing that she has no idea are the root of the problem. If someone would have outed them to you, even two years ago, that would have been a huge help. Otherwise - I agree - let sleeping dogs lie.


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## TAMAT

Cromer,

Yea I get that the guy was 26, the last church guy who was circling my W was 23 or something like that, so I just sent his fiance a message and left it at that. He confronted me about it and I pointed out that while his fiance was very attractive to me I kept a respectful distance and never kissed her, I hope he got the message about interfering in other peoples lives. 

Were he older or more mature the outcome would have been different.

Tamat


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## sokillme

I would just let the guy know you know and that one day when he is least expecting it you are going to tell his wife, and maybe his family. Seeing as he is a church going guy. I am sure he has a facebook page right. Then I would ghost. But then I am kind of a ****. Still you punch me I am going to punch you back.



> From what I understand the "mind movie" problem is part of what my XWW is suffering from re: my new ladyfriend. That is a whole 'nother story and not sure if I should start a thread about the "Psycho XWW who tracked my ladyfriend down on fb and started some shat." Geez.


So @Cromer, are we to infer you wife is stalking your new girlfriend now? I'm shocked that a women who would cheat with a guy 20 years younger and then withhold sex for 10 years is now stalking. That's sarcasm. This is why I always say it's a character issue and it ends up affecting all aspects of the relationship. People who behave like your wife just don't make good partners in the long run.


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## Elizabeth001

CynthiaDe said:


> I can understand you not wanting to expose. The only reason I think it would be of any value would be if he was married at the time and is still married to the same woman. If she doesn't know, she could be going through difficulties due to not knowing that she has no idea are the root of the problem. If someone would have outed them to you, even two years ago, that would have been a huge help. Otherwise - I agree - let sleeping dogs lie.




Or let lying dogs sleep. lol 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cromer

sokillme said:


> So @Cromer, are we to infer you wife is stalking your new girlfriend now? I'm shocked that a women who would cheat with a guy 20 years younger and then withhold sex for 10 years is now stalking. That's sarcasm. This is why I always say it's a character issue and it ends up affecting all aspects of the relationship. People who behave like your wife just don't make good partners in the long run.


Several weeks ago my XWW texted me and said that she wanted to talk and it was important. She knows that I won't answer unless she texts first and gives me the topic for the call. I had to do this for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here. Anyhow, she didn't say what it was about just that it was important, so I told her all right. 

She started with some small talk asking how I was doing and whatnot, then asked if I was seeing anyone. I told her that it was none of her business. She said it was because I might want to introduce our kids to a "strange woman" at some point and she had a right to know what was going on. Instead of hanging up, I took the bait. I said "she's not strange to me" and that "our kids are adults, it's not like they are in elementary school." She kept pressing for details and I finally said that I needed to go.

She then went into the "I can't believe you're with someone so fast", "it must have started before the divorce", "were you f'n around on me?", etc. Then she started crying and saying she was sorry about what she did, that she will never find anyone else like me, especially since she gained a lot of weight, etc.

Then she said, "you're f'n her aren't you?" At this point, I was pissed and said something like "she's shown me what it's like to be with a real woman again" and hung up. She blew up my texts but I ignored them. Last week, my gf mentioned that she got a message on fb from my XWW, introducing herself and asking a few questions, like "how did you meet?", "how long have you been together?", etc. She didn't answer and blocked XWW, but she was afraid. Fortunately, XWW is 3 hours away, and gf understands because her XWH went psycho trying to get her back when she filed for D. I feel so bad about it.

My oldest daughter went to see XWW a few days ago because she felt bad about spilling the beans to XMiL. What she got was an interrogation about the gf that totally creeped her out (my daughter has met gf a few times and likes her a lot). My daughter told me that she doesn't recognize the person that her mother has become, both mentally and physically. She sent me a picture of them together and I swear that I wouldn't recognize the XWW if I passed her on the street, and it's only been 9 months since I last saw her. She is a total mess.


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> Several weeks ago my XWW texted me and said that she wanted to talk and it was important. She knows that I won't answer unless she texts first and gives me the topic for the call. I had to do this for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here. Anyhow, she didn't say what it was about just that it was important, so I told her all right.
> 
> She started with some small talk asking how I was doing and whatnot, then asked if I was seeing anyone. I told her that it was none of her business. She said it was because I might want to introduce our kids to a "strange woman" at some point and she had a right to know what was going on. Instead of hanging up, I took the bait. I said "she's not strange to me" and that "our kids are adults, it's not like they are in elementary school." She kept pressing for details and I finally said that I needed to go.
> 
> She then went into the "I can't believe you're with someone so fast", "it must have started before the divorce", "were you f'n around on me?", etc. Then she started crying and saying she was sorry about what she did, that she will never find anyone else like me, especially since she gained a lot of weight, etc.
> 
> Then she said, "you're f'n her aren't you?" At this point, I was pissed and said something like "she's shown me what it's like to be with a real woman again" and hung up. She blew up my texts but I ignored them. Last week, my gf mentioned that she got a message on fb from my XWW, introducing herself and asking a few questions, like "how did you meet?", "how long have you been together?", etc. She didn't answer and blocked XWW, but she was afraid. Fortunately, XWW is 3 hours away, and gf understands because her XWH went psycho trying to get her back when she filed for D. I feel so bad about it.
> 
> My oldest daughter went to see XWW a few days ago because she felt bad about spilling the beans to XMiL. What she got was an interrogation about the gf that totally creeped her out (my daughter has met gf a few times and likes her a lot). My daughter told me that she doesn't recognize the person that her mother has become, both mentally and physically. She sent me a picture of them together and I swear that I wouldn't recognize the XWW if I passed her on the street, and it's only been 9 months since I last saw her. She is a total mess.


Once you read these stories a lot you realize that when the BS stays with the WS a lot of times it really saves the WS life in a way. Talk about ironic. I think the BS has to do the heavy lifting of getting over the cheating but also help a very dysfunctional person learn how to function as well. It's deeply unfair. The WS is so broken that the BS is really the only solid thing in their life, usually the thing that is keeping them from spiraling out of control. Besides that it's not an easy thing to live with the fact that you blew up your life. Maybe somewhere deep down she even feels sorry that she hurt you and her kids, but typically, as it always is with people like your wife, it's not her first thought. She may not even totally grasp the seriousness of it. It's who they are, they are broken. 

Sounds like your wife is spiraling. Doesn't mean I think you should have stayed with her. Actually you were her high school sweetheart right? That dynamic probably wasn't good as she could have crashed and burned early in her life with plenty of time to recover. Now it's going to be a lot harder. Their are similar stories like this where women who married young cheat and then can't handle it when their life blows up. She was a stay at home mom too right? I am convinced the dynamic with these wives who do this kind of thing is that when they got married they just substitute their husbands for their parents. I am not saying all SAHM's do this, but I think ones who only have one relationship and never work are a risk for this kind of thing. It's like they don't really grow up. Again you are not responsible for this. It's on her. The best you can do is have your kids encourage her to get help. Sounds like she needs it.


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## Cromer

sokillme said:


> *Actually you were her high school sweetheart right?* That dynamic probably wasn't good as she could have crashed and burned early in her life with plenty of time to recover. Now it's going to be a lot harder. Their are similar stories like this where women who married young cheat and then can't handle it when their life blows up. *She was a stay at home mom too right?* I am convinced the dynamic with these wives who do this kind of thing is that when they got married they just substitute their husbands for their parents. I am not saying all SAHM's do this, but I think ones who only have one relationship and never work are a risk for this kind of thing. It's like they don't really grow up. Again you are not responsible for this. It's on her. The best you can do is have your kids encourage her to get help. Sounds like she needs it.


We met in college. We were both virgins, and the first time (a few months before we married for full sex, lots of other before that) there was lots of proof lol. I was beginning my Sophmore year (19 yo) and she was beginning her Senior year (21 yo). We dated exclusively until for 3 1/2 years and married 6 months after I was graduated. She had a job right out of college making good money as a computer programmer. She worked until she became preggers with DD1 (term I just learned LOL). We decided that I would be the one with the career and provide, she would be the one to take care of the home. She will tell you though that I did my share of everything and more in the house, I didn't come home every day and expect to be catered to by a woman. Night feedings, bathroom cleaning, cooking (I love to cook), taking kids around and being at events when I could, etc. I encouraged her to get out and do something outside of the home, and she did. She did a lot of volunteer work, church, active with military family issues, had girl's nite outs, etc. 

My mistake was getting her into the gym. One day she asked to go and I spent a lot of time showing her the ropes. We would go together and she really got into it. She lost weight and as she would joke "she upped her hotness considerably and I'd better keep her happy." She already outlooked me but dang. I admit it bothered me a little the way guys looked at her in the gym but I trusted her, idiot me.

We had an amazing sex life before I deployed in 2005, and I am not sanitizing the history. We were a 5-7 times/week couple and it was hot and sweaty and amazing, and I mean we were at it the day the doctor said we could after childbirth. Somehow I thought that we might get that back but it never happened and I was so naive. Damn.


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> We met in college. We were both virgins, and the first time (a few months before we married for full sex, lots of other before that) there was lots of proof lol. I was beginning my Sophmore year (19 yo) and she was beginning her Senior year (21 yo). We dated exclusively until for 3 1/2 years and married 6 months after I was graduated. She had a job right out of college making good money as a computer programmer. She worked until she became preggers with DD1 (term I just learned LOL). We decided that I would be the one with the career and provide, she would be the one to take care of the home. She will tell you though that I did my share of everything and more in the house, I didn't come home every day and expect to be catered to by a woman. Night feedings, bathroom cleaning, cooking (I love to cook), taking kids around and being at events when I could, etc. I encouraged her to get out and do something outside of the home, and she did. She did a lot of volunteer work, church, active with military family issues, had girl's nite outs, etc.
> 
> My mistake was getting her into the gym. One day she asked to go and I spent a lot of time showing her the ropes. We would go together and she really got into it. She lost weight and as she would joke "she upped her hotness considerably and I'd better keep her happy." She already outlooked me but dang. I admit it bothered me a little the way guys looked at her in the gym but I trusted her, idiot me.
> 
> We had an amazing sex life before I deployed in 2005, and I am not sanitizing the history. We were a 5-7 times/week couple and it was hot and sweaty and amazing, and I mean we were at it the day the doctor said we could after childbirth. Somehow I thought that we might get that back but it never happened and I was so naive. Damn.


Your mistake was marrying her, but how could you know? You seem to have gotten good kids out of it so that may even make it worth it, especially if in a few years you are just as happy with this new women or just plain happy. People are ****ty, even when you treat them like royalty. That's why the idea that you can somehow love someone enough not to cheat is just silly. Your wife cheated because she was selfish, I bet if you look back on it there were any other signs that she was selfish as well. This is why it's a mistake to take all of your happiness or security from just one relationship. See your marriage as a success because YOU loved her and did the right thing. You were a very good husband to her. Her marriage was a failure because she blew it up. She was a ****ty wife for 1/3 of it. For now enjoy your new relationship for as long as you can, but remember if that blows up you can just then move on to the next one.


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## Cromer

@sokillme I guess one never knows. I mean, I thought I did, but not really. But you know, it takes a very, very special woman to be a faithful military wife. Maybe it's too much to expect for them to be faithful when you are gone so much. During the first 4 years of our marriage, I was gone for 2 of it, and during the recent wars about the same. The irony is that we wore that as a badge of honor in front of everyone we knew, that our marriage was so strong that we could not only handle but grow during the separations. I can't tell you the number of times I'd hear from non-military wives "I could never do what your wife does." It all turned out to be a lie. I hate to say this, but after all of the cheating military wives I've seen over the years, to include my own, I would never recommend a career military man get married. It's just too much of a risk. If I had it to do all over again with the wisdom of hindsight, I would have pulled a Maddog Mattis.

PS. Not really, I love my kids and wouldn't change a thing that brought them into this world.


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> @sokillme I guess one never knows. I mean, I thought I did, but not really. But you know, it takes a very, very special woman to be a faithful military wife. Maybe it's too much to expect for them to be faithful when you are gone so much. During the first 4 years of our marriage, I was gone for 2 of it, and during the recent wars about the same. The irony is that we wore that as a badge of honor in front of everyone we knew, that our marriage was so strong that we could not only handle but grow during the separations. I can't tell you the number of times I'd hear from non-military wives "I could never do what your wife does." It all turned out to be a lie. I hate to say this, but after all of the cheating military wives I've seen over the years, to include my own, I would never recommend a career military man get married. It's just too much of a risk. If I had it to do all over again with the wisdom of hindsight, I would have pulled a Maddog Mattis.


You didn't cheat when you were there right? Personally I just think there are cheaters and non-cheaters.


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## Cromer

sokillme said:


> You didn't cheat when you were there right? Personally I just think there are cheaters and non-cheaters.


No. Never. I never had "female friends", never flirted, nothing like that. I can't overstate how much I adored and loved my XWW. I remember once when I was second in command of a battalion, we went to this formal ball and someone asked me "how can you not enjoy all the boobage?" because he noticed that I was not scoping out all of the women. I said something like "because I love my own boobage" referring to the wife. I meant it too.

You know, I admit that I would see other women and think that they were attractive. But it was a fleeting thought, like "she's good looking" then it left my brain almost instantly. My wife was the center of my female world. I thought about her constantly when I was deployed. We had this ritual of taking a picture of her, then I would laminate it so it wouldn't get destroyed when I deployed (field hardened LOL). She would ask me to leave hickeys all over her tummy before I left. She wouldn't wash the pillowcase that I was using once I deployed because she said it smelled like me and made her less lonely. I took so much joy in bringing little "surprise" gifts home, going through elaborate set-ups for special occasions (and there were some classics), taking surprise days off after coordinating a sitter and whisking her away to do something unexpected (we called it wifenapping), and the greatest joy I had was seeing her happy reaction to something I did for her. It's hard for me to express how utterly devoted I was to this woman. Yes, that may point to issues that I have or whatnot but it made me happy and I thought it made her happy. In hindsight, she just took it for granted. But, I thought that was what marriage was about and I make no apologies. In any case, I have great, and I mean awesome, kids.

Writing about all of this is actually good for me. I never went to any kind of counseling, but believe it or not my gf has encouraged me to talk about all of this with her and has been very empathetic. Maybe I'm not as "over it" as I thought but I'm getting there.


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## Cynthia

There was nothing wrong with your devotion to your wife. The problem wasn't with you. It was with her. It's all on her. When two people are equally devoted to each other, it's a beautiful thing.


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> No. Never. I never had "female friends", never flirted, nothing like that. I can't understate how much I adored and loved my XWW. I remember once when I was second in command of a battalion, we went to this formal ball and someone asked me "how can you not enjoy all the boobage?" because he noticed that I was not scoping out all of the women. I said something like "because I love my own boobage" referring to the wife. I meant it too.
> 
> You know, I admit that I would see other women and think that they were attractive. But it was a fleeting thought, like "she's good looking" then it left my brain almost instantly. My wife was the center of my female world. I thought about her constantly when I was deployed. We had this ritual of taking a picture of her, then I would laminate it so it wouldn't get destroyed when I deployed (field hardened LOL). She would ask me to leave hickeys all over her tummy before I left. She wouldn't wash the pillowcase that I was using once I deployed because she said it smelled like me and made her less lonely. I took so much joy in bringing little "surprise" gifts home, going through elaborate set-ups for special occasions (and there were some classics), taking surprise days off after coordinating a sitter and whisking her away to do something unexpected (we called it wifenapping), and the greatest joy I had was seeing her happy reaction to something I did for her. It's hard for me to express how utterly devoted I was to this woman. Yes, that may point to issues that I have or whatnot but it made me happy and I thought it made her happy. In hindsight, she just took it for granted. But, I thought that was what marriage was about and I make no apologies. In any case, I have great, and I mean awesome, kids.
> 
> Writing about all of this is actually good for me. I never went to any kind of counseling, but believe it or not my gf has encouraged me to talk about all of this with her and has been very empathetic. Maybe I'm not as "over it" as I thought but I'm getting there.


What a fool your wife was. Seems like she is coming to terms with that in the way she is capable. Again though, she didn't know how lucky she was, I think. Honestly I think a lot of these HS sweetheart (1 and only) folks in relationships don't really have a good comparison to draw from. It's also why they stay when it's bad or broken beyond repair. They don't understand how much better it can be. Seems like you are learning that now, and your wife is learning how much worse it can be. Wait 5 years from now it will even be worse, she is right she is not going to find that again. 

The cynical part of me says that whenever I read stories where the guy is almost over the top about his wife she almost always ends up taking it for granted and cheating. Maybe that's not true, but a lot of times it is. I also think you idealized your wife like lots of people do when they have no others to compare to. But maybe like you say, you got joy out of it so it wasn't all lost on her. So do the same for whoever comes next, this women or whomever, I suspect they will love it and appreciate it more. I also suspect you will look back on your wife and realize she wasn't as great a catch as you thought, even the years before she cheated. 

Your story reminds me of Walloped's story on SI. I wonder if you have read it. Same as in his wife is his one and only and stay at home mom. The difference is that she got caught in the middle of the affair, and he has decided to stay with her so far. He had not had 10 years of rejection like you, but he may have gotten it, if her relationship with this man had run it's course and ended. It seems strange but in a way you are lucky that you found out after. The break (which I absolutely think is the right decision) had kind of already happened. You don't really have to get over her, and even if you have some feelings of rejection, it's pretty obvious you are done with her nonsense. She had rejected you for a long time, enough for you to lose your love for her. She showed you her true nature and you had had time to come to accept it. 

For a lot of people accepting the truth that your spouse is a bad choice is really hard, I think there is a kind of denial in a lot of people who try to stay. It is common to hear a BH talk about how their wives were tricked by the AP. They frequently concentrate all their anger on the AP which seems misplaced in a way. After all the AP didn't make you any promises. Not saying they arn't *******s and also responsible for their own actions. But as far as the relationship goes your spouse is worse because they have much more of a responsibility to you. Plus if the AP is scum what does that make your spouse. 

I wonder if you ex gets that all of this really comes down to her cheating on you 11 years ago? It was that decision that ended your marriage. Generally this is the endpoint when you cheat. Despite some of the more optimistic posters here like to say, most marriage don't recover from infidelity. How could they really. I suspect she doesn't get it as she has some nerve asking you if you cheated. But even that makes sense. With all my reading it's just painfully obvious that most of WS are so self centered in their thinking that the correlation doesn't even dawn on them. It's how they could do it in the first place. This is also why I suspect it probably would have happened anyway, your service or not. You wife was just not that deep and was ripe for the picking. She was the type to cheat. I wouldn't be shocked that she pushed the envelope through your entire marriage. Lack of character is partially why she is such a mess now. She lacks the character to understand ore even care that she wrecked your life. You are the victim here not her. Does she even feel bad about that? She is not attacking her moral flaws, and accepting her fate (which is of her own doing) because that takes character. Instead she stalks your girlfriend.


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## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> There was nothing wrong with your devotion to your wife. The problem wasn't with you. It was with her. It's all on her. When two people are equally devoted to each other, it's a beautiful thing.


Early in our marriage, we were stationed overseas. There was this commercial that would play on the Armed Forces Radio and Television Network (now AFN) that showed an elderly couple slow dancing in the kitchen, then the camera panned to pictures of them together through the years with him in his uniform, to the song "Can You Imagine How Much I Love You." It made my wife cry the first time she saw it, so for years after, I would randomly go into the kitchen, grab her and start dancing with her while singing this song. It was OUR SONG because of how she reacted to this commercial years ago and I thought she believed in the message. This is what I miss, never being able to enjoy that memory with anyone else. Ever. It would be so depressing if I didn't have Friday to look forward to with the gf. I know that I deserve better, I just have to internalize it.


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> Early in our marriage, we were stationed overseas. There was this commercial that would play on the Armed Forces Radio and Television Network (now AFN) that showed an elderly couple slow dancing in the kitchen, then the camera panned to pictures of them together through the years with him in his uniform, to the song "Can You Imagine How Much I Love You." It made my wife cry the first time she saw it, so for years after, I would randomly go into the kitchen, grab her and start dancing with her while singing this song. It was OUR SONG because of how she reacted to this commercial years ago and I thought she believed in the message. This is what I miss, never being able to enjoy that memory with anyone else. Ever. It would be so depressing if I didn't have Friday to look forward to with the gf. I know that I deserve better, I just have to internalize it.


You had that memory for many years. You will have other memories with someone else. You have to remember, she had that too and she chose to reject that for some tawdry sex. You were never going to have that memory no matter what because your dancing partner didn't priorities it. So you are grieving over a lie. I know this is harsh but you will do a lot better if you stop romanticizing it and look at it for what it really was. The best you were going to have with this women was as many years as she was able to do the right thing. But a lifetime was never in the cards. 

Again there can be other memories just as nice.


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## skerzoid

Cromer:

I really feel for what you went through. My father was in the Navy during WWII and in the Army during the Korean War. When he was drafted out of high school, he married his high school sweet heart and she actually followed him to San Diego where he took his training. He was sent overseas and while there he found out that she was pregnant by another man. He of course divorced her. 

Now, I am empathetic to the pain he felt, but, when he returned, he met my mother, and married her when she graduated from high school. A year later, I was born. Man am I glad that woman cheated! I would never have existed otherwise! 

Your XWW earned her fate, especially since she did it twice and made you pay for her displeasure.

Life has many twists and turns. YourGF sounds like a winner, but you take it slow and easy and make her earn you. You are a prize beyond gold. 

Oh and thank you for your service! Good luck with your new life!!


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## Cromer

sokillme said:


> The cynical part of me says that whenever I read stories where the guy is almost over the top about his wife she almost always ends up taking it for granted and cheating.
> 
> *This is a very depressing thought. I have read and heard so much about how women felt ignored by their husbands, then ended up cheating with a loser because he paid her attention or complimented her eyes or some such crap. So, I dote over my wife and she ends up cheating anyway. F'n marriage is nothing but a lose/lose for a man.*
> 
> Your story reminds me of Walloped's story on SI. I wonder if you have read it.
> *
> I should register there and do some reading, but my guess is that SI is a place of great misery and I am in a mostly happy place right now.
> *
> For a lot of people accepting the truth that your spouse is a bad choice is really hard.
> 
> _*It's hard for me to say that she was a bad choice at the time, people change. Something changed in her. We had a great 20+ years together and it produced my kids.
> *_
> 
> It is common to hear a BH talk about how their wives were tricked by the AP. They frequently concentrate all their anger on the AP which seems misplaced in a way. After all the AP didn't make you any promises.
> *
> I have no illusions here, I blame her all the way.*
> 
> I wonder if you ex gets that all of this really comes down to her cheating on you 11 years ago? *I think she gets it now.*
> 
> It was that decision that ended your marriage. Generally this is the endpoint when you cheat. Despite some of the more optimistic posters here like to say, most marriage don't recover from infidelity. _*I would never reconcile with a cheater, I find it so dishonorable, dirty, and I have no sympathy for anyone who f's up their marriage by f'n someone else. Pity is what I feel towards her. Just pity. Honor and commitment used to mean something, not anymore.*_
> 
> I wouldn't be shocked that she pushed the envelope through your entire marriage. _*If she did I didn't see it. But I was a trusting fool. She is very charming, outgoing, and could enthrall one of those little groups that form during social events with no effort. She was no doubt an eye magnet. Maybe she was a rat the entire time, who knows. I remember looking at her when she'd get all dolled up for one of these formals and wonder what I did to catch such a woman. *sigh**_
> 
> Lack of character is partially why she is such a mess now. She lacks the character to understand ore even care that she wrecked your life. You are the victim here not her. Does she even feel bad about that? _*I'm not sure how she feels, but it doesn't matter. *_ She is not attacking her moral flaws, and accepting her fate (which is of her own doing) because that takes character. Instead she stalks your girlfriend. *I have no doubt that in her mind, she thinks that we are going to get back together. She has said as much many times. She's tried to say all kinds of things to make this better. For her. But, I am long-ago done.*


I was thinking last night about the college days. My male social circle (mostly military guys) in college would always collect around my wife like she was Queen Bee and they were the drones. She got hit on so much, but our relationship seemed bulletproof. Of course, I was insecure about it. I did all I could to win and keep her. At the wedding, my college roommate of 3 years (also military) used to say that he had no idea how I landed XWW as my girlfriend, that I really did hit above my weight with her, and that I'd better be careful because some other dude was going to steal her someday. He seems like Nostrodamus now.

Last night is the last time I open a bottle of wine and hang out on TAM. Reading back at what I posted, what a pity party. Oh well. GF and I decided to break the "no weekday" rule and she is coming to spend the night a day early. That'll fix things. :smile2:


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## Taxman

Cromer
Your ex wife probably reruns the last ten years over and over and over. The one thought that occurs to her is, if I had only had sex with him, I would not be alone now. If only I had not had sex with the OM, I would be happy, secure, married, thinner, less lonely, and generally better, but I threw it all away for sweet fwck all. He has a girlfriend, and I watch Jeopardy on the couch with my mom seven nights a week. All she really can say is that she bought and paid for this hell that she will experience for the remainder of her life. All it would have taken is a trip to the bedroom with her husband. Instead she was faithful to a stranger who banged her ten years ago, and is now with another. How pitiful is she?


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I was thinking last night about the college days. My male social circle (mostly military guys) in college would always collect around my wife like she was Queen Bee and they were the drones. She got hit on so much, but our relationship seemed bulletproof. Of course, I was insecure about it. I did all I could to win and keep her. At the wedding, my college roommate of 3 years (also military) used to say that he had no idea how I landed XWW as my girlfriend, that I really did hit above my weight with her, and that I'd better be careful because some other dude was going to steal her someday. He seems like Nostrodamus now.
> 
> Last night is the last time I open a bottle of wine and hang out on TAM. Reading back at what I posted, what a pity party. Oh well. GF and I decided to break the "no weekday" rule and she is coming to spend the night a day early. That'll fix things. :smile2:


No offense man but you are putting too much of this on her looks. Beautiful women are faithful and less attractive women cheat. Also you can't do anything to make someone not cheat. You are totally at their mercy, so if they are going to do it they are going to do it. 

After all the reading I have done I think the only thing that has any chance of keeping you from getting cheated on is to have really high standards in who you are willing to give your heart to. At least that will weed out some of the worse offenders. Even then though people change, that is why it's good to know that even if you do get cheated on life goes on and you can still be happy. You just shouldn't look to one person, or one relationship to give you joy and contentment.


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## Cromer

sokillme said:


> No offense man but you are putting too much of this on her looks. Beautiful women are faithful and less attractive women cheat. Also you can't do anything to make someone not cheat. You are totally at their mercy, so if they are going to do it they are going to do it.
> 
> After all the reading I have done I think the only thing that has any chance of keeping you from getting cheated on is to have really high standards in who you are willing to give your heart to. At least that will weed out some of the worse offenders. Even then though people change, that is why it's good to know that even if you do get cheated on life goes on and you can still be happy. You just shouldn't look to one person, or one relationship to give you joy and contentment.


I guess it's my way of trying to make sense of things.


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I guess it's my way of trying to make sense of things.


Maybe think of it like a car crash. Bad things happen in life. You had no control over your wife and she decided to blow up your world because of her selfishness. Just like a car crash you heal and then you move on. Most people drive again, but some choose to never get in a car. Unfortunately that is life, even emotional safety is not always guaranteed. Is that even something you should strive for? Maybe but not at the expense of what could be wonderful experiences. You had 20 good years, you were married to a beautiful women in her prime, you had good kids. That is a lot. 

On other thing, YOU were always the catch. Maybe she was beautiful but there are a hell of a lot of beautiful women out there, and with some makeup, good diet and the right cloths almost anyone can be made to be beautiful. Not a lot of men who will slow dance with his wife while singing about growing old together, especially guys who are the type to also be soldiers. Looks fade, but character does not. Your wife was truly a fool, she deserves to feel that way. Accept it and move on with your life. I promise you, you can have exactly what you had with your wife (as far as an emotional love and connection) with someone else. Remember the person who was your wife died a very long time ago.


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## Taxman

Cromer
It has absolutely nothing to do with looks. It has everything to do with CHARACTER. When I cheated, I was a LOWLIFE. I was entitled. I was in the me me me stage. It was all about me, my wealth, my car, my house, my lifestyle. So the blonde cheerleader was the next acquisition. It took a massive wake up call to shake me out of this mindset. Your wife missed all of the wake up calls. Her character was of a low nature that allowed her to first cheat, and then screwed her up badly enough that she operated under the delusion that she would be unfaithful to her lover. What happened to her, she earned. She worked on it, labored on it, and molded it into a shape that kept you out of her vajayjay, but not out of her life. That D should have come to her in the first year. It may have been retrievable then. Now, there is no chance for her. Admittedly, she is no longer attractive and she is, lets be truthful, she is a fuxking idiot. Did she think that you would just forget your libido? Did she think your **** stopped working? She was obviously delusional, and now, justice has arrived. Make no mistake, this is justice. She gave away what was rightfully and legally yours. Then she denied you access to it, because she wanted to keep it for the interloper. She deserves to be alone and lonely because that is nature, or karma, or fate, or providence or kismet. She created this and now she regrets her actions, but with most, it is way way too late. We know you are a good and kind man, and you do not wish this on your ex. Too bad it is deserved.


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## Graywolf2

If I were your XWW what would blow my mind is that all I had to do was have sex with you occasionally and the divorce would have never happened. 

I agree with you that she’s more upset that she lost her best friend than that she lost her husband. But you can show your best friend a good time every once in awhile if only because you like to see them happy.

Your wife has been able to charm people and get her way for her entire life. She was more upset by her boyfriend dumping her than by the news that her sister had cancer. Now you have dumped her and she can’t take it. Her world has turned upside down. 

She has enough insight to know that she has used her looks to get her way. That’s why she keeps bringing up that her weight will make her powerless in the future. 

I remember Kathleen Turner (from the 1984 movie Romancing the Stone) saying in an interview that “Every man in the room wanted me.” I saw her in the 2008 movie Marley & Me. We have all gotten older but time was especially unkind to her. I wonder how she handles that. Maybe it's better to have never been a 10. That way you develop other skills.


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## itsontherocks

Hey Cromer, First off, sorry for what you went through. I know how it felt when you found out about your EWW. My ex-wife had an emotional affair right after we married and I will bet dollars to donuts she had an extra-marital affair as well. Nonetheless, you were way too generous on the split, but I can understand why you didn't put the screws to her financially. It shows true character in yourself which she may never see. She's very much sorry for what she's lost and she has to live with her actions for the rest of her life. If you believe in the bible, she will have to answer for her misgivings on Judgement Day. 

I am happy to hear you are doing a million percent better. Just do not get married again. Should you co-hab with your lady friend, make sure you have her sign a co-hab agreement. It's so important these days to protect your financial and legal a$$.


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## TeddieG

Graywolf2 said:


> If I were your XWW what would blow my mind is that all I had to do was have sex with you occasionally and the divorce would have never happened.
> 
> I agree with you that she’s more upset that she lost her best friend than that she lost her husband. But you can show your best friend a good time every once in awhile if only because you like to see them happy.
> 
> Your wife has been able to charm people and get her way for her entire life. She was more upset by her boyfriend dumping her than by the news that her sister had cancer. Now you have dumped her and she can’t take it. Her world has turned upside down.
> 
> She has enough insight to know that she has used her looks to get her way. That’s why she keeps bringing up that her weight will make her powerless in the future.
> 
> I remember Kathleen Turner (from the 1984 movie Romancing the Stone) saying in an interview that “Every man in the room wanted me.” I saw her in the 2008 movie Marley & Me. We have all gotten older but time was especially unkind to her. I wonder how she handles that. Maybe it's better to have never been a 10. That way you develop other skills.


Kathleen Turner had rheumatoid arthritis and was in incredible pain by 1992. She medicated herself with alcohol until about 8 years later when a variety of medications resulted in remission from the pain. The medications alone would have caused weight gain, but her drinking didn't help, as she freely admitted. Her looks were indeed affected by the RA and the medication. She did often complain, starting in her 50s, that her talent as an actress was overlooked because she was sick. She said that when she reached 40 she was offered roles as mothers or grandmothers. She said at one point that actors who were fat could get jobs, actors who were alcoholics could get jobs, but actors who were sick could not. She went to re-establish a semblance of a career, particularly doing voice-over work, but her marriage ended in 2007 because of her incessant pain and the way she medicated herself. She finally went into rehab when the medications developed for RA finally gave her some relief. But while she has been vocal about ageism, she's also been honest about her struggles and her own weaknesses. 

We all have to deal with those things, but I can't imagine what it would be like to do that publicly, under scrutiny from magazines and photographers.


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## Cromer

Best. Night. Ever.


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## As'laDain

Cromer said:


> Best. Night. Ever.


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## Cromer

Graywolf2 said:


> If I were your XWW what would blow my mind is that all I had to do was have sex with you occasionally and the divorce would have never happened.
> 
> I agree with you that she’s more upset that she lost her best friend than that she lost her husband. But you can show your best friend a good time every once in awhile if only because you like to see them happy.


I'm going to get some 2x4's here. 

Yesterday before gf came over I called XWW at her request. We talked for a little while and she said that she wanted to have a face-to-face meeting, that her counselor said that she should "tell me everything" to help with the "moving on" process. At first, I didn't want to do it, but my XWW is in such a dark place that I decided to go. So...while gf is a work, I'm about to meet XWW at the half-way point for lunch. GF knows I'm going and encouraged it. She's been amazing support. Wish me luck.

ETA: My daughter really wants me to do this, how could I say no?!?


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## TAMAT

Cromer you wrote,

*that her counselor said that she should "tell me everything" to help with the "moving on" process.*

Its good of you to allow her to confess and/or apologize. I don't think you will go back to your ex-W or forget what she has done, but it will help her make amends to her children. This is particularly true if your children were witnesses to her affair when you were away.

I think my W is somewhat like your ex in that my W believes her religious involvement has granted her forgiveness from God, but she still fights her impulse to confess to me.

Tamat


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## wilson

How do you think you'll react if she gives you gory details or shifts the blame to you? Maybe she will truly sorry and take responsibility, but she might also have warped things around to make it all your fault and that she didn't have any choice. Try not to take things personally. Realize that she will likely say some crazy stuff and that you don't necessarily have to agree or respond to it.


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I'm going to get some 2x4's here.
> 
> Yesterday before gf came over I called XWW at her request. We talked for a little while and she said that she wanted to have a face-to-face meeting, that her counselor said that she should "tell me everything" to help with the "moving on" process. At first, I didn't want to do it, but my XWW is in such a dark place that I decided to go. So...while gf is a work, I'm about to meet XWW at the half-way point for lunch. GF knows I'm going and encouraged it. She's been amazing support. Wish me luck.
> 
> ETA: My daughter really wants me to do this, how could I say no?!?


I think it's a really bad idea. You owe her nothing, she fired you years ago. But since you are going to do it anyway good luck. 

One thing though, what are you going to do the next time her counselor asks you to do something else to help you heal. She is your EX wife. If you keep deferring to her you will hurt your new relationships. She can't be a priority.

Maybe a good compromise would be to let her write you a letter.


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## TAMAT

I think she wants to tell him important details, like there may have been other people beside the one OM, and who they were. Or that she gave money to them etc, or that her kids witnessed what was going on or that her parents approved of it. Given what he wrote about his WW she is not likely to reveal the sexual aspects of the affair without prompting.

Tamat


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## Taxman

Cromer
I can't help but wonder if this is a ploy to get you back. Listen intently, but shut her down if she offers anything. Your divorce is final, and you have a lovely lady who, frankly is everything you want. Your xww is used goods, and from my standpoint, I would have nothing in my heart for her. You were a good husband. Better than she deserved. You did not deserve what she did. Let her know that she is the offending party and that she was so wrong that she ended the marriage because of her lies, deceit and infidelity. I am a son of a bit(h, and I would say to her that all that befell her was of her own doing. Had she acted remotely like a wife in the bedroom, this would have never happened. Also tell her that the new woman is making up for the time that you spent being a celibate husband, and you were celibate because you were decieved. Ask her for the last ten years that she pissed away for nothing. That is where her head should be, angry and bitter at herself for creating this.


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## Cynthia

He's already gone. I hope this brings closure for her and she can move on. Her antics create stress and further dysfunction in the family. Cromer's children need a healthy mother, even though they are all grown up. It's difficult at any age to have a parent who is falling apart, which she clearly has been. Maybe this will help her get back on track and to make the changes she needs to be healthy.


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## lilianagrace

CynthiaDe said:


> He's already gone. I hope this brings closure for her and she can move on. Her antics create stress and further dysfunction in the family. Cromer's children need a healthy mother, even though they are all grown up. It's difficult at any age to have a parent who is falling apart, which she clearly has been. Maybe this will help her get back on track and to make the changes she needs to be healthy.


I agree. He is gone and seems to have good boundaries despite also being soft in the heart towards the mother of his children. This may be like amends in recovery programs. I think it is good of him to allow her this meeting and hopefully it brings about closure for her. I have to say this is the saddest thread I have read on here. I am a long time lurker and registered today just to say this. She really blew it. I mean really, really blew it. 10 years is a long time to be neglected and your faithfulness is admirable. You are a good man.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## GusPolinski

I’m suddenly reminded of @LostCPA; he divorced his ex as a result of what he initially thought was a single affair with the neighbor.

Turns out she’d had a total of SEVEN affairs during the course of their marriage.


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## Cromer

I just got back and don't know what to say. Got to get my thoughts together and I'll post more. Best night ever to worst day ever. Ugh.


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## GusPolinski

Don’t do it, man.


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## ButtPunch

GusPolinski said:


> Don’t do it, man.


He's already divorced. He's good.


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I just got back and don't know what to say. Got to get my thoughts together and I'll post more. Best night ever to worst day ever. Ugh.


Well we all told you not to do it.


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## Cromer

I read through some of the latest comments and of course, they didn't disappoint with the predictions. Basically, it only took 80 minutes to rewrite the history of my adult life. I'm not sure how I feel about it. Just numb and achy all over. I mean really numb. I'll do my best to lay it out logically, but my thoughts are everywhere right now. It's so good to have a place to talk with people who've been there.

So, I met with XWW and her mother was there with her. We talked by ourselves though. I hardly recognized her, she has gotten huge and really dark bags under her eyes. It was shocking to see. Please keep in mind what I am writing is what I heard her say, and I'm adding a lot about the situation at the time for context, but my head was spinning so who knows if I am getting it right. She had a list written down with everything she wanted to say.

She's been going to counseling and for the first time, she was advised to tell me everything. She said that her counselor told her that keeping everything from me has been very bad for her health over the years and that she didn't have anything to lose now. Basically, clear her conscience with me so she could find peace herself. Whatever.

My XWW said that she had slept with three men during our marriage. Needless to say, I was floored and didn't know what to say, so I just sat there and as she laid everything out. I had to go outside at one point because I thought that I was going to puke. I just had no idea. I asked her why and she said it was for the excitement, that she was lonely when I was gone, that she always got a thrill from being hit on, that she always had a fantasy about having sex with a stranger and wanted to see what it was like but never thought she would do it (for #1), she had a little crush on her boss (#2) but it was mostly the thrill and danger of having sex in our house with the chance I could come home anytime, and (#3) was loneliness+lust turned into a hormonal fog. She was very clear though that it wasn't anything that I did or didn't do. In fact, quite the opposite. She took all of the blame and wished she could live her life with me over again. She said that I had been a great husband, father, and provider; that she knows that she didn't deserve me; and that I didn't deserve what she'd done to me. I'd never seen her so contrite about anything.

Gory details:

OM #1 was a ONS about two years after we were married. We were living overseas and about halfway through our first tour, and living off base. When I was in the field training, she went on a girl's night out to the Officer's Club. She said she flirted with a guy (DoD school teacher, single) but that was it.  A couple of months later, I was on a short deployment and she went to the club with some friends again. He was there. Her "friends" were cheering her on and telling her to go for it, that no woman should experience just one man in her life, and I would never find out. So, she did. She got drunk, they ended up at our place for the night and they had sex in our bed. She says that when she woke up in bed with him the next morning, that she remembered everything and panicked. We were trying to get pregnant at the time and they didn't use protection. Thank God she didn't get pregnant. DD1's conception was about a year later and XWW swore that I was the father. Talk about a smack to the head. She never saw him again, supposedly.

OM #2 was her boss. We were stationed at a fairly unique duty station (too identifying for me to say here) with DD1 and DD2. I had a weird "8-day week" work schedule, which means my weekends were Mon-Tue, then Tue-Wed, etc. for a year. I was also "on call" for 4 of those days, and would often have to leave in the middle of the night to take care of something. We got space in the base daycare, which was very flexible, and XWW went to work as a GS employee. Time alone for us was at a premium, and I would sometimes come home and meet her for a "nooner". 

Where my wife worked was within walking distance of our house. Her boss was married with three kids and we socialized with them a few times, even had them over for dinner and visa-versa. His wife as a really nice lady who was an elementary school teacher and did lots of volunteer work. After about six months of flirting, they kissed for the first time, then went to our house and had sex. For the next six months, she and her boss would have sex in our house once or twice a week. The really nauseating part is they knew where I was because I had a Motorolla base station in the house, and they would turn it on and listen to me or my call sign on the radio to keep track of where I was at (I had to report my location at all times). A few times, they had to leave the house early because they heard that I was headed to the house for lunch. Once, she had sex with me less than an hour after him when I came home for a late nooner. This made me want to vomit. He ended it when his wife got pregnant with their 4th. We left shortly after that.

OM #3 was the gym guy, a trainer. She says that they flirted constantly, got close, and she finally "gave in" after I had been gone about 3 months. The first time was behind the gym, but since he was a was single and they used his place to have sex. About a month before I got back, she had an abnormal pap. After another exam, it turned out she contracted HPV and developed visible warts. She tells me that this is why she didn't want to have sex with me, not just because of OM. She was so shocked by getting an STD and was afraid that I would find out because she knew that I hadn't been with anyone else in my entire life. I don't know anything about HPV other than warts and cancer risk, but she said that it stayed with her for many years. Looking back, I remember that she got two pap smears every year, for years. She had two cervical freezes done, and some other procedures too. She was at the GYN a lot and now it makes sense. She broke it off with OM just before I got back from deployment, but did see him again later, one time, and gave him a hand job. Then he dumped her. I was out of town.

She swears that all of the kids are mine. From what she laid out timeline wise, I believe her. But wow. Just wow. She said that she knew that she did me wrong, lived a life of lies, and took me for granted. She said that after she got over OM #3, she finally realized what she was risking and that she really did love me. She felt trapped by her lies and the HPV and didn't know what to do because she couldn't risk having sex with me until she was clear. By that time we had settled into this sexless routine and I had basically detached and was ready to divorce.

I didn't say much, asked a few questions, that was it. She said that she wasn't asking me to forgive her, that it would be too selfish. But she knew that God had forgiven her and that she knows that she has to move on for our kids' sake. I told her that she will always be the mother of my children, that I don't hate her, I do worry about her health, but I needed time to process this. I also made it clear that we were over, she acknowledged it, and promised not to harass the gf anymore. That was the only time the gf came up in the conversation. She also said that she hopes that I find the happiness that I deserved. 

So there you have it. We could've talked a lot longer but I wanted to get the Hell out of there. My XMiL gave me a hug, said that I was a good man, and asked me to keep in touch.

I'm not sure how I feel, but to get angry now seems so pointless.


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## ButtPunch

I hope you find the happiness you deserve too Cromer. 

That day begins today.


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## TAMAT

Cromer,

At least she didn't expose you to the HPV it causes multiple cancers.

My W was also sort of shocked when I told her about the HPV cancer link.

I would go back and expose the OMs, the trainer was supposed to be a professional, the guy with the pregnant wife was married, and the other guy was a government employee and not supposed to be with soldiers wives. 

Tamat


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## GusPolinski

Sorry man.


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## Cromer

lilianagrace said:


> I agree. He is gone and seems to have good boundaries despite also being soft in the heart towards the mother of his children. This may be like amends in recovery programs. I think it is good of him to allow her this meeting and hopefully it brings about closure for her. I have to say this is the saddest thread I have read on here. I am a long time lurker and registered today just to say this. She really blew it. I mean really, really blew it. 10 years is a long time to be neglected and your faithfulness is admirable. You are a good man.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Thank you @lilianagrace. You don't know how much I appreciate your kind words. Although I feel as though I should have some regrets, when I really think about it I don't.


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## lilianagrace

Holy crap. The update was gnarly. I am both angry and sad. What a horrible situation. 

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## wilson

If there's any bright side, I'm glad you found out after the divorce and have had some time to move on. No doubt all that was tough to hear, but at least you had some emotional distance so the effect was muted somewhat. Don't be surprised if your emotions are on a bit of a rollercoaster for a while.


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## rockon

Good God!

I have no words. And I thought my cheating ex was bad. 

Stay strong bro.


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## Cromer

BTW, GF isn't coming over tonight, I told her I needed some time when I was on my way back and she understood. A good, life-long bro friend of mine is coming over and we're gonna do a fifth of CC at the fire pit. It's a beautiful, cool evening here. I want to get drunk as Hell and have a massive hangover tomorrow.


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## 3Xnocharm

Omg. What a sickening, selfish, sh!tty person to further destroy another person just to make herself feel better. I know some folks support her coming clean with everything, but I dont. Her guilt is her punishment for what she did, and she should have learned to heal and move on without dumping this crap on the person she betrayed. He was already so hurt as it was. 

I cheated in my first marriage, and my ex never found out. I thought about telling him many, many times over the years. Its a damn hard thing to have to live with, but I couldnt bring myself to dump something so hurtful on him like that just so I didnt have to carry that guilt anymore. To me that would have been a terrible, selfish thing to do , it would have only been to make myself feel better. He died not knowing. I dont have to worry any more about him finding out, but its still there, I know I did it. It has and will keep me from ever doing it again.


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## lilianagrace

Yeah I actually don't support her coming clean with all that. In recovery we are taught that we don't hurt people when making amends. In this situation it would not beneficial to croner to know, it would just relieve her from the secrets she kept all these years. Her therapist is a jerk too.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## As'laDain

3Xnocharm said:


> Omg. What a sickening, selfish, sh!tty person to further destroy another person just to make herself feel better. I know some folks support her coming clean with everything, but I dont. Her guilt is her punishment for what she did, and she should have learned to heal and move on without dumping this crap on the person she betrayed. He was already so hurt as it was.
> 
> I cheated in my first marriage, and my ex never found out. I thought about telling him many, many times over the years. Its a damn hard thing to have to live with, but I couldnt bring myself to dump something so hurtful on him like that just so I didnt have to carry that guilt anymore. To me that would have been a terrible, selfish thing to do , it would have only been to make myself feel better. He died not knowing. I dont have to worry any more about him finding out, but its still there, I know I did it. It has and will keep me from ever doing it again.


im actually glad my wife came clean immediately. i think Cromer deserved to know this a long time ago though... kinda pointless now, but at least his XWW is now _willing_ to face reality. granted, it took her getting _forced_ to see reality... :|

@Cromer...

ouch man. i have no words.


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## Cromer

3Xnocharm said:


> Omg. What a sickening, selfish, sh!tty person to further destroy another person just to make herself feel better. I know some folks support her coming clean with everything, but I dont. Her guilt is her punishment for what she did, and she should have learned to heal and move on without dumping this crap on the person she betrayed. He was already so hurt as it was.
> 
> I cheated in my first marriage, and my ex never found out. I thought about telling him many, many times over the years. Its a damn hard thing to have to live with, but I couldnt bring myself to dump something so hurtful on him like that just so I didnt have to carry that guilt anymore. To me that would have been a terrible, selfish thing to do , it would have only been to make myself feel better. He died not knowing. I dont have to worry any more about him finding out, but its still there, I know I did it. It has and will keep me from ever doing it again.


I'm pretty liquored up now with bad judgement, and watching a fire with my laptop, and just let my BFF read through this thread. Ok, it's an amazing fire when seen through liquor goggles lol. I have zero empathy for betrayers but I'm not judging you per se. I don't know your situation and appreciate you commenting on my situation. But people who f' someone who is not their betrothed are scum. Believe me, I wanted to and had many chances. But despite my sexless Hell situation, I didn't cheat. I just couldn't do it. Honor means something to me, and maybe that's why I was such a good fit as a military man.

My mother was married to a sailor, and she had an affair with her ex and when her husband came back from a 9-month deployment, she was 4 months pregnant with me. So hating cheaters and betrayers is somewhat problematic for me, because if it hadn't been for the unfaithful **** who was my mother, I'd never been born. Yes, I have mommy issues.

All I can say is f'k anyone who betrays the love and commitment of their devoted spouse. These people are the scum of the Earth and should burn in Hell. What happened to honor and commitment? I will probably regret this in the morning and delete it. Sorry. I'm in a bad place right now.


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## Cromer

lilianagrace said:


> Yeah I actually don't support her coming clean with all that. In recovery we are taught that we don't hurt people when making amends. In this situation it would not beneficial to croner to know, it would just relieve her from the secrets she kept all these years. Her therapist is a jerk too.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


It took a few drinks for me to get this but you are right. She did this without regard to how it would impact me to make herself feel better. Screw the [email protected]#ch.

I am so lost. WTF did I do? How could I have been so wrong? Other than my children, my life was wasted on a lie. She was the center of my world and I wanted her to be the happiest person on Earth. WTF did I do? How could I have been so wrong? This is torture.


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## bandit.45

You didnt waste anything my man. You served your country and protected the rest of us from villainous tyrranny and terrorism. You are an honorable man who just happened to marry a dishonorable woman. It happens to the best of men and is no reflection on who you are as a person.

Bang the hell out of that girlfriend of yours and have dome fun. You have earned it.


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## 3Xnocharm

Cromer said:


> All I can say is f'k anyone who betrays the love and commitment of their devoted spouse. These people are the scum of the Earth and should burn in Hell. What happened to honor and commitment? I will probably regret this in the morning and delete it. Sorry. I'm in a bad place right now.


Nah... dont delete it. Its you being honest with how you feel. I own what I did. But what I didnt do was to sh%t on someone else just to make myself feel better. You did nothing to make those things she did happen Cromer, that is all on her. You sound like the kind of man most of us out here are looking for, and she blew it.


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## bandit.45

And as for your p.o.s. ex-wife, I predict she is going to spend the rest of her life a very lonely and pathetic creature. Clearing her conscience is only going to be a temporary relief. 

The best revenge is to live your life well...having as much fun as you can and making yourself your #1 priority. 

Never talk to her from now on. Let your silence ring loud and clear in her ears.


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## Faithful Wife

Cromer.....I'm so sorry  

How painful this all is.

You did nothing wrong! You can have a completely different future now!!

I understand this grieving process and nothing is going to make you feel better for a little while.

My situation was kind of reversed from yours. He was the love of my life and vice versa and we had an incredible sex life. But we couldn't make the marriage work and eventually had to literally sever the ties knowing this is the love of our lives. 

But it was painful, like your situation. We had something incredible and still, fate worked against us lasting forever. It hurt like cutting a healthy limb off my body for no reason and no anesthesia. Neither of us want this but here we are.

So in similar ways to you we have both called out to God "why? Why would this happen to me when we love each other so much and none of it makes any sense?" 

We had to swallow our pain and trust that this was the correct path, as we had no choice. It was either that or feel like dying day after day if we tried to change it or make sense of it. Just had to accept the crap sandwich and all the weeks and months of agonizing pain and sadness.

I could ask God again "why? Why is this what is happening when it would seem like neither of us deserve this fate? What the hell did I do to deserve losing the best thing that ever happened to me?"

.........

I'm so grateful now to be far enough along in the process that I understand what God has in mind for me now, and I understand why my ex and I couldn't be together forever. I understand that my future is something different and better.

But for a full year I cried myself to sleep every night and barely coped with my daily life. I had to force myself to eat and force myself not to get drunk every night. Had to drag my ass to work and flee to the bathroom to cry my eyes out several times a day while my awesome and bewildered co workers just had to give me space and ignore me or I'd just start crying again. I couldn't handle any empathy from anyone it just made me melt down. 

But once again.....if only I could go and hug myself when I was in that place and truly show the old me what the new me is getting to do and be and live and have. If I could, I know that sobbing heartbroken me would have perked up and been like "what?!?!? All of that?!?!? Omg! It's going to be ok, not just ok, it's going to be amazing!" 

Trust that the path and God have you going the right direction. You didn't know that you were on the wrong path before. You are on the right one now. The old path can still be cherished again one day as you incorporate your new path. The one you need to be on.


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## farsidejunky

@Cromer

I wish I could say that this shocked me.

But...knowing the military lifestyle, it does not.

Thought and prayers for you, brother.

P.S. Go easy on the liquor. It does nothing to help you...nothing.


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## farsidejunky

Dude...stop looking at sunk costs, and start looking at opportunities.

You have your whole life in front of you.

Get your ****ing bucket list out and start checking off the items.

Love generously.

Savor life.

It is all there for the taking...all you have to do is decide to look forward and take the first step.


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## Graywolf2

Cromer said:


> She was the center of my world and I wanted her to be the happiest person on Earth. WTF did I do? How could I have been so wrong?


You projected your upstanding character onto her. For some people sex isn't a big deal. That's why you could be her best friend and she could screw around on you. What you didn't know wouldn't hurt you. She was never going to leave you and it was free fun for her until she got HPV. 

Yes you got screwed but you have three kids that turned out great to show for it. Do you realize how rare that is? You’re healthy and have a classy girl friend. Don’t let your past interfere with your future.


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## eric1

Cromer said:


> It took a few drinks for me to get this but you are right. She did this without regard to how it would impact me to make herself feel better. Screw the [email protected]#ch.
> 
> I am so lost. WTF did I do? How could I have been so wrong? Other than my children, my life was wasted on a lie. She was the center of my world and I wanted her to be the happiest person on Earth. WTF did I do? How could I have been so wrong? This is torture.




You are looking at this completely wrong. Reread your thread. You were very happy for many years then something changed to make it not happy. You adeptly pivoted in another direction and am happy now.

Your goal is to make tomorrow happy, not try to find reasons why yesterday sucked.


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## Taxman

Sir, you said that men that have sex with married women are scum. No, they are opportunists, your ex wife was a scum bucket. You are well rid of her. Do you know why your new girlfriend is better? She is better because she does not cheat. Your ex? Hope the weight gain is ongoing and permanent. She deserves every bad thing that happened. I have no words to express the utter disgust I have for your ex wife. Nothing that would befall her between now and the grave are so well deserved. 

Cromer, I hope she sees you walking down the street kissing your new GF. I hope your new GF becomes your new wife. I hope you have great sex twice to three times daily, have marvellous vacations, see the world and build a lifetime of new memories. May your daughters and grandchildren grow to love you and your new wife and may everyone turn their back on the flim-flam woman you called your wife. That was what it was, you were flim-flammed. While you were doing your job, she was banging anything that moved. Then when you want out, she gets an epiphany. Here is the epiphany. She was a low-life ***** who managed to cover her whoring for your entire marriage. You sir were taken. Do not give her an ounce of consideration in the future.


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## Cromer

A short check-in. 

I should be feeling like crap but I feel great. Bro friend and I went on a scavenger hunt last night. We found every last photo of her and her & I in albums, boxes etc. and burned it all. Negatives too. Purged FB and my computer of her. Kept the pictures of her with the kids though, I am going to give them to DD1. Then, everything she's ever given me, the holiday ties from over the years, gifts, nick-nacks she bought but left, you name it was either burned or resides in a 20-yard dumpster that I am using for a project. The house looks a bit naked but I don't care. I blocked her on FB and will do so on the phone. She's been texting but I'm ignoring her.

It's going to take a while to process things but getting mad as Hell and doing something about it felt so, so good and even better this morning.

GF is coming over tonight, says she has a surprise. Lord I can't wait.

ETA: It was a LOT of stuff!


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## Cromer

As'laDain said:


>


Now to go to a happy place. GF came over with a list of things she's always wanted to "do" in an intimate setting (being polite here) but never did. She said that even with her X, she was too embarrassed to talk about it. Well, we checked #1 on the list. Huge checkmark! There are 14 more to go.

She has this "librarian" persona, the way she dresses and acts so proper and reserved. Just wow, I never would've guessed...


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## bandit.45

Sex swing Cromer. 

Go on Amazon and order a sex swing. Best $50 you will ever spend.


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## Cynthia

What your ex did was vomit on you. Clean yourself up and move on. I'm so glad you've blocked her and are putting her in your rear view mirror. Time to move away from that train wreck.

Don't rewrite your history. You were happy. Don't take that away from yourself. Yes, she was a cheating, deceiving liar, but you didn't know that. You were living your life in honor and integrity. Don't ever let the truth of who you are get lost in the truth of who she is. Her lack of character does not lessen your strength of character.


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## Don't Panic

Disgraceful and shameful on so many levels...It's as if the psychological mind **** never ends in her world. Absolutely appalling.


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## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> Don't rewrite your history. You were happy. Don't take that away from yourself. Yes, she was a cheating, deceiving liar, but you didn't know that. You were living your life in honor and integrity. Don't ever let the truth of who you are get lost in the truth of who she is. Her lack of character does not lessen your strength of character.


Yesterday was a blessing in disguise, although I may not fully believe it yet. Any doubts or reservations about what I did were consigned to the ash bin of Cromer's history. I'm still not sure how I feel about everything but I'm not having the same response that I've read so many other BS's have. I don't feel grief or heartbreak, I'm not playing any mind movies although that would be so easy to do with a couple of the details she gave me, especially with OM #2. That sickened me. I was angry last night but I can already tell I'm not holding onto it. 

I feel sad for her, but mostly pity. She violated herself and our marriage beyond anything that I could have imagined. She cried some yesterday but she is on meds for anxiety and I could tell. XMiL is the one who drove her there. There is some emptiness but that is more about missing what I thought we were going to have together in the future, but that too is ebbing. 

I did something else that I'm not proud of, but it's done. I found OM #2 wife on fb early this morning and sent her a lengthy message. I tried my best to be diplomatic and explained that I thought that she deserved to know. I haven't heard back. I saw that they have a total of 6 kids. Wow. What a douche.

DD1 is really wanting to talk about yesterday. I'm not sure what to tell her and I have no idea what she knows. She reads me like a book though, and when she sees me next it is going to be hard to talk to her, she won't accept a simple "it's between your mother and I" and leave me alone LOL. 

It's just a weird place to be right now.


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## GusPolinski

You were right to reach out to OM2’s BW, IMO.

In fact, if OM1 was/is married as well, I’d encourage you to do the same for his BW.


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## Cynthia

You're right, Cromer, the good thing about what she told you is that you have absolutely no room for doubt that you did the right thing in leaving her. 

She said that her therapist told her to do it. I wonder if her therapist is really that stupid to tell her that or if the ex didn't quite understand the point of talking to you. It should have been to make amends rather than to hurt you more. It seems like a revenge for leaving her, which no good therapist would recommend.

As far as contacting the OM #2's wife, that was the right thing to do. She needs to know. Ex may think she's special, but chances are high that OM #2 is a philanderer in general and not only with your wife.

I have a hard time keeping things from my kids too. Like you, they can read me like a book and they press for information. I have learned to tell them that there are some things I need to keep to myself or to share with one of my confidants, because I don't think it's appropriate to share some details of my life with my children. They do understand that and honor it when I put it that way. You could even say something like, "Mom told me some disturbing things that she should have kept to herself. She shouldn't have burdened me with them and I sure as hell am not going to burden you with that information."


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## Cromer

GusPolinski said:


> You were right to reach out to OM2’s BW, IMO.
> 
> In fact, if OM1 was/is married as well, I’d encourage you to do the same for his BW.


OM2 wife wants to talk, she messaged me her number a few minutes ago. Oh damn. I didn't anticipate that.

OM1 I have no clue about him and it was decades ago, my XWWx3 said she only knew his first name.

OM3 is married now but I am not going to touch that one.


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## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> You're right, Cromer, the good thing about what she told you is that you have absolutely no room for doubt that you did the right thing in leaving her.
> 
> She said that her therapist told her to do it. *I wonder if her therapist is really that stupid to tell her that or if the ex didn't quite understand the point of talking to you.* It should have been to make amends rather than to hurt you more. It seems like a revenge for leaving her, which no good therapist would recommend.
> 
> As far as contacting the OM #2's wife, that was the right thing to do. She needs to know. Ex may think she's special, but chances are high that OM #2 is a philanderer in general and not only with your wife.
> 
> I have a hard time keeping things from my kids too. Like you, they can read me like a book and they press for information. I have learned to tell them that there are some things I need to keep to myself or to share with one of my confidants, because I don't think it's appropriate to share some details of my life with my children. They do understand that and honor it when I put it that way. You could even say something like, "Mom told me some disturbing things that she should have kept to herself. She shouldn't have burdened me with them and I sure as hell am not going to burden you with that information."


Good question. As addled as her brain is right now, there is no telling what advice she got versus what she thought she got. I do believe that she believed that it would be best for me to know rather than not. XWW logic I guess.

I will find out what DD1 knows first. I appreciate the insight.


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## GusPolinski

Cromer said:


> OM2 wife wants to talk, she messaged me her number a few minutes ago. Oh damn. I didn't anticipate that.


Just be honest with her.



Cromer said:


> OM3 is married now but I am not going to touch that one.


Eh... given that he’s likely given his wife HPV, you might consider reaching out to her as well. That way she and her OB/GYN can get out in front of any potential complications.


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## wilson

Cromer said:


> OM2 wife wants to talk, she messaged me her number a few minutes ago. Oh damn. I didn't anticipate that.


She deserves to know, but think about what you just went through and how it was presented. Consider holding back on any gory details. Give her the basic facts that will let her line things up on her end, such as dates and places where they met up, but nothing that will create mind movies that she won't be able to get rid of.

Also, be supportive. This may be the first she's learning about it and she may have no clue of how to deal with everything. Encourage her to take some time for her to process everything before making any decisions. Encourage her to confide in her family, start counseling, and get support from marriage forums like this one.


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## Cromer

wilson said:


> She deserves to know, but think about what you just went through and how it was presented. Consider holding back on any gory details. Give her the basic facts that will let her line things up on her end, such as dates and places where they met up, but nothing that will create mind movies that she won't be able to get rid of.
> 
> Also, be supportive. This may be the first she's learning about it and she may have no clue of how to deal with everything. Encourage her to take some time for her to process everything before making any decisions. Encourage her to confide in her family, start counseling, and get support from marriage forums like this one.


Great advice. I'm not thinking clearly about this subject right now, so your input is very helpful. I admit to being nervous about calling. She just messaged me again and said: "I would really like to talk."


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## Cynthia

I don't believe in revenge, but when it involves my children, I would NEVER do anything to make someone else look bad at the expense of my children no matter how much that person deserved it. These young women already know that their mother committed adultery against their father. Knowing more details isn't going to help them. Having a positive relationship with your parent is a huge blessing in life. Destroying that for your children isn't doing anyone any good.

Edit to add: In other words, telling the kids doesn't only ruin the ex's relationship with her children. It ruins it for the children. They should be able to decide on their own what they want to know, but I would be very careful about this and err on the side of caution.

Personally I learned things about my father that I wish I had never known. What I already knew was bad enough, but when I went to work with him, his colleagues told me stories that further damaged my relationship with him. That was about 30 years ago. My dad just passed away. We did not have a good relationship due to his adultery and my reaction to it. Sometimes I think it would have been better to not know how deeply flawed my father was. Maybe we could have had a better relationship. I don't know, but I'm glad my mother didn't do anything to make things worse between Dad and me. He did that all by himself without any help from her.


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## farsidejunky

Cromer said:


> Great advice. I'm not thinking clearly about this subject right now, so your input is very helpful. I admit to being nervous about calling. She just messaged me again and said: "I would really like to talk."


Call her.

Give her the overview story. Then provide details if she asks for them.


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## eric1

Cromer,

She is very lucky that she has you to talk to. Be compassionate but be very brief in details. Let her decide how much or how little she would like to know.

Do not be nervous. We so rarely have the opportunity to help other people in such a direct way. It does take some courage, to be sure, but after what you’ve been through you have absolutely nothing to fear.


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## Cromer

@Taxman I understand what you are saying, but it is important to me that I not become between our children and their mother. All I heard growing up was hate and vitriol coming from my mother about my father. I have carefully and delicately managed information from me about what happened when speaking with DD2 and DS3. DD1, the more mature one who is destined to be a great family Matriarch, figured a lot out on her own and I have been very forthcoming with her when she's asked, but not in a gross or inappropriate way. Thankfully she's done a great job of managing DD2 and DS3 when it comes to my XWW. DS3 has had the most trouble, but he is still on the upward swing on the maturity curve. All were angry with their mother, but don't hate her. I never want them to hate her, and they don't hear me saying I hate her either.

We are a community property, lifetime alimony state. To avoid paying lawyers crazy fees and to get the D done quickly, I made a fair offer and she accepted it. She did a great job with the kids, especially with me gone so much, and I appreciated that aspect of our relationship. I won't take that away from her, and I reinforce that with our kids. What my kids have seen is their dad treat their mom fairly and with respect, and I am going to keep it that way. That's more important than money to me.


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## Cynthia

I wish I could like this 100 times.



Cromer said:


> @Taxman I understand what you are saying, but it is important to me that I not become between our children and their mother. All I heard growing up was hate and vitriol coming from my mother about my father. I have carefully and delicately managed information from me about what happened when speaking with DD2 and DS3. DD1, the more mature one who is destined to be a great family Matriarch, figured a lot out on her own and I have been very forthcoming with her when she's asked, but not in a gross or inappropriate way. Thankfully she's done a great job of managing DD2 and DS3 when it comes to my XWW. DS3 has had the most trouble, but he is still on the upward swing on the maturity curve. All were angry with their mother, but don't hate her. I never want them to hate her, and they don't hear me saying I hate her either.
> 
> We are a community property, lifetime alimony state. To avoid paying lawyers crazy fees and to get the D done quickly, I made a fair offer and she accepted it. She did a great job with the kids, especially with me gone so much, and I appreciated that aspect of our relationship. I won't take that away from her, and I reinforce that with our kids. What my kids have seen is their dad treat their mom fairly and with respect, and I am going to keep it that way. That's more important than money to me.


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## As'laDain

Cromer said:


> @Taxman I understand what you are saying, but it is important to me that I not become between our children and their mother. All I heard growing up was hate and vitriol coming from my mother about my father. I have carefully and delicately managed information from me about what happened when speaking with DD2 and DS3. DD1, the more mature one who is destined to be a great family Matriarch, figured a lot out on her own and I have been very forthcoming with her when she's asked, but not in a gross or inappropriate way. Thankfully she's done a great job of managing DD2 and DS3 when it comes to my XWW. DS3 has had the most trouble, but he is still on the upward swing on the maturity curve. All were angry with their mother, but don't hate her. I never want them to hate her, and they don't hear me saying I hate her either.
> 
> We are a community property, lifetime alimony state. To avoid paying lawyers crazy fees and to get the D done quickly, I made a fair offer and she accepted it. She did a great job with the kids, especially with me gone so much, and I appreciated that aspect of our relationship. I won't take that away from her, and I reinforce that with our kids. What my kids have seen is their dad treat their mom fairly and with respect, and I am going to keep it that way. That's more important than money to me.


you are a very good man Cromer. don't ever let anyone tell you different.


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## oldshirt

sokillme said:


> I don't know man. Turns out your wife was a pretty ****ty one. She deceived you for years, stole your sexuality, and robbed you of a **** ton of money. I read your first post again you were honorable and protective of her the whole time. You couldn't even conceive that this was done to you with malice but the truth is it was. I see this all the times with guys like you especially when thier wives are SAHM, you protect your wives from consequences like they are children, and then they go and act like children. The consequences would actually be good for her and healthy, she lived for years in an unhealthy dynamic, she didn't work even when her kids were past the age of needing constant attention right? Basically she got entitled and now that you're not there she has to live with the harsh reality one that was protected from her for her entire adult life with you.
> 
> Besides that, ****ing a I would not let her steal my honor. Honor that was hard won by years of faithfulness, and celibacy, especially when protecting her from consequences was probably part of the reason she ****ed it all up to begin with. Your wife never grew up, she turned you into her parent. You are still treating her like a child.
> 
> Now I am not saying announce it in church but if someone asked I would just say straight out, she cheated. Leave it at that. I would also tell my kids and the both sets of parents. Your kids have seen an unhealthy dynamic for years, this would be a good lesson for them to learn. Let them talk to her about it so that they can see the consequences of cheating.
> 
> Do not let this women steal your honor. YOU WERE FAITHFUL AND GAVE UP SEX FOR YEARS! Now you are going to let everyone think this is a mid life crisis even your other kids? It's wrong. In my mind it kind of negates all of the honorable stuff you did in the first place.



I completely agree with this. 

Don't take this the wrong way because at the moment I would wear a "CROMER RULES!" t-shirt and pin up a CROMER poster over my bed like a 12 year old girl. 

But I do think that your kids need to know a cosmic truth of the universe. Your wife had an A and transferred all of her intimacy and attraction and desire to the OM and cut you off at the knees. From there she continued to use you for support and resources and subjected you into a life of chronic frustration, dissatisfaction and desperation and you never knew the root cause of why and you were never able to adequately address it or fix it because you never knew the root cause. 

There was a definitely 'cause-and-effect' that took place here. This did not happen in a vacuum and it her loss of intimacy with you and your eventual resentment and disconnect from her and from the marriage was not a random event that "just happened." This was a predictable and repeatable process that occurred due to a hidden affair that was never delt with by either your XW, you or the two of you as a couple. 

She went underground and hid it *even though she knew the effects of it were destroying your marriage bit by bit, day by day.* she knew the lack of intimacy was destroying your connection with her and was destroying the marriage *FOR TENS YEARS* but yet she did nothing. 

Your kids need to know this cause-and-effect. Otherwise they will always carry an insecurity that attraction and intimacy and connection just simply "end" one day for no reason and that there is no coming back from it. 

Yes it will be hard for them (and other family members) to hear that their mom was an adulteress and that their father floundered in desperation trying to find a fix. But in the long term it is better that they know that this was all the logical conclusion and the predictable result of a nefarious affair that was never addressed or delt with and that it was not just some random quirk that just happens out of the blue.


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## GusPolinski

“My ex may have been a cheater but she was a great mom.”

Wrong.

With every encounter with another man she risked having her family torn asunder.

By not confessing to her transgressions early on, by not getting a handle on her ****ty behavior, by not committing to change in order to be the wife she pledged to be, she risked having her family torn asunder.

By holding you hostage in a sexless marriage made necessary by the STD she contracted while ****ing another man she risked having her family — _her *children’s* family_ — torn asunder.

Never again will they be able to sit in the same room with both of their parents on Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas morning, etc. And even if you’re able to manage that, it will never be the same. What it should have been.

What they _deserved_.

But hey, at least she was able to wipe some noses, pack some lunches, and get everyone off to school, right?

Give me a break.


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## Cromer

Please remember that I am still dealing the yesterday's revelations. However, that hasn't changed my mind about my approach to everything. Maybe if I'd known a year ago, I would have been much more of a bastard about it. But that's not the place I am in right now.

There is no doubt that I could utterly destroy her with the kids, our mutual friends, church, you name it. At this point, it would be piling on, with little purpose other than to try and make myself feel better? Punish her more? What would anyone have to gain from it, especially the kids? They know she messed up. They see her as a wreck right now. She's paying the price, and so are they, but that doesn't erase all of the packed lunches, emergency room visits, wiping noses, etc. Although tainted by recent events, they still fond memories of their childhoods. It's something I will never have for myself, and I am thankful that is what they are taking away from their time at home.

No, I don't regret trying to take the high road. Maybe that makes me weak. Maybe I am a patsy. Maybe I should be more visceral about the whole thing. But, I need to move on and do so without causing more family damage and doing the best I can.


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## oldshirt

Cromer said:


> I see your point but just couldn't do it to her at the time. I still care about her as someone that I spent so much of my life with and as the mother of our children. Sure, I have a lot of resentment for so many years of lost intimacy, but on the other hand not every woman is cut out to be the wife of a career military man. Misjudging her character was my mistake. Not to mention, the first 20 years of our marriage was, from a sexual standpoint, great. If I had not had to deploy for that year, I'm sure that things would have played out differently. How much separation should a woman endure? I'm not sure and yes, I am explaining away her behavior, in part. But I find it hard to pour salt on her wound.



Do not make excuses or justifications for her. Her having sex with OM is only a fraction of what she did here. 

I was not a career man and I only did one enlistment, but I was in the service enough to know that, yes, military service is a challenge for marriages but there are options after options after options that she could have done that did not involve unilaterally cutting off all intimacy with her husband for *TEN YEARS* and allowing him to suffer and allowing the marriage to degrade day by day. 

- she could have outright left you for the OM (or anyone else of her choosing) Yes, that would have sucked and been painful at the time. But then you could have moved on and you could have spent the last ten years of your life doing whatever you wanted and could have moved on and dated and perhaps even remarried and could have been living a good life for the past 10 years. 

- she could have petitioned for some kind of open marriage or some kind of "arrangement" during long deployments. Maybe not ideal but it is what it is and a lot of service members have such arrangements.

- She could have come clean about the A and if she wanted to remain married to you she could have urged MC in which she delt with the affair head on and did the heavy lifting required to restore a healthy and happy marriage.

-even if she wanted to get away with it and gone to her grave with you never knowing, she could have sought individual counseling for herself to deal with her feelings and inner turmoils so that she could continue to have a happy and healthy marriage and relationship with you after your return. 

- She could have kept the A to herself but came out and admitted that she no longer had sexual feelings for you and no longer wanted to have an intimate and sexual relationship with you and offered you the option of a fair and equitable, uncontested divorce so that you could be free to pursue a full-service relationship if you so chose. 

- she could have just packed up and disappeared like a fart in the wind. That too would have painful and chaotic but in time you would have been free to move on and live your life as you saw fit. 

I am sure there are a thousand other things she could have done but instead she chose to keep the A a secret yet continued to cling on to you for support and resources and kept dangling a carrot in front of you to keep you holding on even though she knew you were dying inside and she knew that she was destroying the marriage and going to ultimately break up your home and family. 

That is the face of evil and cruelty. Those are actions of a cold, cruel, calculating and manipulating monster. 

That is not the actions of normal, military spouse that was lonely and horny and needed some human contact during a long separation. 

That is all by her choice and her actions to manipulate and use you as a resource and commodity to her. You are at absolutely no fault in that.


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## wilson

I think the ex is suffering enough. The kids don't need to know everything. There is a real possibility that she gets totally crushed and ends up in the lowest place which doesn't have a good outcome. With the mental state she's in right now, I'm not sure how far out of it she'll come. I could see if she was living the high life and spreading lies, but that's not the case. She's in a deep hole right now and looks to be going deeper all on her own. There's no need to help make that hole any deeper, unless the resulting outcome is the goal.


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## confusedalonemom

I know I am probably going to get a lot of heck for this. But tell her soon, I have been a wife for 8 years and I am a mother of 4. I had no idea how unhappy my husband was, like you he didn't show it. But I wish he had told me sooner what was on his mind. Nothing will prepare her. She will be angry at you, she may cry, but for all those years you need to be honest with her. 

I sometimes wonder what I can do for my husband but I see him slipping away from me each day. Not just me...our kids as well. I think I have finally accepted my fate, but it took a long time. I just wished he would have told me sooner so that I would know how to plan life without him. I still love him, he is my best friend and he saved my life once. He helped me achieve everything I ever wanted and gave me the best part of him. Our kids. I truly want him to be happy now, even if it is without me. I just wish I had known sooner, so like him I could have planned better. 

So I beg you please tell her soon.


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## farsidejunky

@confusedalonemom

I would read the entire thread. 

There is much to learn here.


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## Cromer

wilson said:


> I think the ex is suffering enough. The kids don't need to know everything. There is a real possibility that she gets totally crushed and ends up in the lowest place which doesn't have a good outcome. With the mental state she's in right now, I'm not sure how far out of it she'll come. I could see if she was living the high life and spreading lies, but that's not the case. She's in a deep hole right now and looks to be going deeper all on her own. There's no need to help make that hole any deeper, unless the resulting outcome is the goal.


Exactly. DD1 is worried sick about her mother and has been for a long time, but she does that. She's asked several times if I thought her mom could hurt herself or worse. I've dealt with several suicides over the years, and I do worry about her doing something rash. It would go without saying that the kids would be devastated, but if God forbid something did happen, they can't blame me. I dealt with misplaced family blame over a suicide years ago (long story, not for here). So yea, I'm sensitive about this.

Maybe it's because I detached from my XWW long ago, but to me I just want to move on. Yes I had my fit last night but I just can't dwell on it. It's in the past, she is in a bad place, and I have gf to look foward to in a couple of hours...


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## Handy

Cromer, I like your attitude and actions through all of this emotional storm.

I know people here like to file on all the negative things on the cheating spouse but I have to say your STBXW did some good things before she started having affairs. If her life was weighed with good verses bad on life's scales, which side of the balance would the heaviest-most good. I say this because your kids sound worthwhile and grounded.

I know this is small potatoes compared to the cheating she did and the long sexless time you endured but she didn't want to infect you OR she didn't want to get caught about her affairs.

My guess is if she didn't show signs of HPV, I suspect the marital sex and general relationship would have been good enough for you to be happy. Like i said, I am not excusing your STBXW's actions. I am just thinking along the lines of "what if."

Regarding your STBXW's HPV, I thought that took many months or years to detect. I was wondering if she contracted it before the gym guy. Please get yourself tested so you know if you have any form of any STI. I would do it for yourself and for that amazing GF you have. I am thinking the GF will eventually find out about your STBXW's HPV and the new GF might start to worry about her own health and risks.

Me, US Army 1965 to 1967, armor div.


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## Cromer

Ok, so I spoke to BS2 for about 15 mins. Wowzers. 

She was very pleasant and businesslike. Not emotional. She asked me to be honest and tell her everything that I know. No detail too small. So, I told her everything XWW told me. She asked if I had any proof and if XWW would make a written statement. I told her that I had nothing but what XWW said but that everything made sense, and that she would have to contact her to see if she would write a statement. She asked if I would make a statement, and I told her that she needed to go to the source. I wouldn't give her XWW number but did advise to contact her on fb.

She caught OM2 in an affair about 10 years ago with one of his employees who was 20 years younger. He still works in government, go figure. They reconciled, but as part of her staying she demanded a postnup and that all finances be split equally and managed separately, to include retirement assets. Kids have mostly grown and with this latest revelation, she's out. She's basically been waiting for an excuse. She appreciated me letting her know and asked to stay in touch. She was so matter-of-fact about it.

Didn't someone here call it? Gotta love TAM.


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## Cromer

Handy said:


> *I thought that took many months or years to detect.* I was wondering if she contracted it before the gym guy. Please get yourself tested so you know if you have any form of any STI. I would do it for yourself and for that amazing GF you have. I am thinking the GF will eventually find out about your STBXW's HPV and the new GF might start to worry about her own health and risks.
> 
> Me, US Army 1965 to 1967, armor div.


What I read about it was a few weeks to 2 or 3 months for symptoms to appear, if they appear, or to cause an abnormal pap. It's not like HSV. HPV usually will clear on its own if you have a healthy immune system, but sometimes it can take years. Looking at all of the timing and her paranoia about me finding out, she couldn't have infected me. I am certain, but it wouldn't hurt to get checked. Thanks for the kind words.


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## sokillme

What a night to lose internet connection. I spent the whole night wanting to respond to this post and give you encouragement but couldn't because all I had that worked was my phone. :surprise:

Anyway let this thread be an illuminating lesson to anyone whose spouse has cheated. Take this as a warning you guys who are quick to R like @MenDontCry and even @Walloped. It is a difficult truth to accept with but it's proven true over and over. * People don't cheat because they lose their way, people cheat because of who they are.* It's in their nature. Now we see your wife was pretty much always unfaithful, she didn't enter your marriage in good faith. She was a phony, a fraud, charlatan. So many of them are. 

Also when someone who treats you like crap then later tells you they need to give you whole story to ease their conscience, the proper and only response should be - "I don't care about your conscience, go **** yourself." Every damn time. You would have saved yourself a lot of pain. Frankly once someone cheats on you the response should always be "Go **** yourself". @Cromer from now on everything your wife says to you the response should be "Go **** yourself."

Now for once I am not going to be nice on here about how to deal with this. I usually take the high road but I believe that her counseling session was not about her clearing her conscience or for her health I think it was one last **** you because she is jealous that you are moving on, and what she always wanted was to have you and **** other men. Someone posted this and I was thinking it too. She is pissed because now she has neither and you are moving on. Your wife is a sociopath.

In that vain if it was me I would call a meeting with my kids and tell them what happened. I would say since there is no possible way to know when and who your wife was sexual with, they should consider getting DNA tests for their health sake as it's important for them to know their medical history. I would state emphatically that in your mind no matter what you are always their father and love them no less, but as their father it's important that they know this stuff for their health and you will worry about it. Heaven forbid they need to know and it is too late to find out, or they get a misdiagnosis because of the wrong information. Apologize for marrying such a snake. This is a kind of passive aggressive **** you to your ex wife. Besides all that it is good advice as the truth is, you have no idea if she is telling the truth with the timeline and you would be a fool to believe her. You also should not trust that you can read her because it has been proven that you can't. Not your fault, like most cheaters she is really good at lying and has a lifetime of practice. Also she deserves the indignity of her children having to check up on her.

I am glad you told the husband it's the right thing to do. I would also tell on 1 and 3 if you can. Both their wives need to know. Also if you really want to be mean if your girlfriend is in the church your ex went to have her put you on the prayer chain and have her spell out that you wife through your whole marriage had not intention of living as your wife. I would broadcast far and wide what a POS my ex was. But I am not nice. I would also make sure your ex mother in law gets Christmas cards with pictures of you with your kids but also your girlfriend. Take them all to Disney use that as the Christmas card picture. When your MIL dies go to her funeral with your girlfriend or whatever her status is in your life at that point. **** if it was me I may even accidentally text my ex a video or pictures of me and my new girlfriend a few times, no faces of course. Or faces when I am in Paris. That is wrong and a sin but like your wife says God will forgive you. By the way know that she is right God will forgive her but she will always have consequences. 

I wonder if your MIL (whom I believe you said was religious) may have also put her up to confessing everything to you. But your ex probably loved doing it one last time, just to see that she still has emotional power over you. That is why you need to kill the whole, "this woman was my first love and I will always love her" bull**** that you wrote a while back before you knew the extent of her evilness. She was a POS, very selfish and more like a toxic cancer. 

I would bet money that your wife is not going to leave you or your girlfriend alone, because she has proven herself to be a duplicitous *******. That's the thing with people like this you guys are always too nice to them. Please stop. Stop trying to rescue her. Stop romanticizing her and see her as she is broken and toxic. 

Finally I want to say something again about why you should not think about yourself or your marriage as a failure. Here is the thing for most of us when we say are vows we make a pledge to God. You kept yours to her and to him (yes I used a male pronoun to identify God). I think there is honor in that and I also think that will be honored, and if you look where you are today it has. Thank God you found out after you had emotionally detached. This allows you to heal much quicker. And here you are already with a women who had her husband do the very same thing, meaning she gets it. A women you met at your church. Someone who is excited about having a sexual adventure with you. I really believe that is your payback for being honorable to God. Don't move too fast but have fun and joy. 

I thank you for your service, I am sorry that that service give your wife avenue to abuse you but the truth is no matter what she was going to do this. She never had the stuff it takes to have a faithful marriage because that takes character, and hers was lacking. You got tricked by a con artist. It was in her nature.


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## GusPolinski

Cromer said:


> Please remember that I am still dealing the yesterday's revelations. However, that hasn't changed my mind about my approach to everything. Maybe if I'd known a year ago, I would have been much more of a bastard about it. But that's not the place I am in right now.
> 
> There is no doubt that I could utterly destroy her with the kids, our mutual friends, church, you name it. At this point, it would be piling on, with little purpose other than to try and make myself feel better? Punish her more? What would anyone have to gain from it, especially the kids? They know she messed up. They see her as a wreck right now. She's paying the price, and so are they, but that doesn't erase all of the packed lunches, emergency room visits, wiping noses, etc. Although tainted by recent events, they still fond memories of their childhoods. It's something I will never have for myself, and I am thankful that is what they are taking away from their time at home.
> 
> No, I don't regret trying to take the high road. Maybe that makes me weak. Maybe I am a patsy. Maybe I should be more visceral about the whole thing. But, I need to move on and do so without causing more family damage and doing the best I can.


No one would blame you for taking the high road, but you’re still protecting her.

A military wife is what she signed up to be — if she couldn’t take it then she shouldn’t have agreed to it, and if she didn’t realize that she couldn’t do it until AFTER agreeing to it, then she should’ve OPENED. HER. ****ING. MOUTH. and talked to you about it.

If your kids ask, tell them the truth. You can hold back the details, but you shouldn’t lie to them — that will just lead to resentment. _Trust me on that_. And besides, it’s not like the oldest won’t tell the other two at some point. Best that they hear it from you. Who knows what they’d wind up believing otherwise.

As for others (mutual friends, church folks, etc), they don’t need to know anything more than that you’re divorced.

As for the mutual friends that _knew_ about the affair(s)?

**** ‘em.

Put them out of your life for good, and never look back.

As for whether or not your ex should’ve told you the truth after all these years?

I’ll take the cold, brutal truth over a pretty lie any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

I understand if you feel otherwise, though.

Either way, a good man should never regret being a good man.

But regretting that you gave your love, trust, respect, and commitment to someone so undeserving of it?

That’s fair game.


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## GusPolinski

sokillme said:


> What a night to lose internet connection. I spent the whole night wanting to respond to this post and give you encouragement but couldn't because all I had that worked was my phone. :surprise:


Don’t think I’ve used anything but my phone for the past year or so. Not for TAM, anyway.

Either way...

Tethering, yo.


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## GusPolinski

Cromer said:


> Ok, so I spoke to BS2 for about 15 mins. Wowzers.
> 
> She was very pleasant and businesslike. Not emotional. She asked me to be honest and tell her everything that I know. No detail too small. So, I told her everything XWW told me. She asked if I had any proof and if XWW would make a written statement. I told her that I had nothing but what XWW said but that everything made sense, and that she would have to contact her to see if she would write a statement. She asked if I would make a statement, and I told her that she needed to go to the source. I wouldn't give her XWW number but did advise to contact her on fb.
> 
> She caught OM2 in an affair about 10 years ago with one of his employees who was 20 years younger. He still works in government, go figure. They reconciled, but as part of her staying she demanded a postnup and that all finances be split equally and managed separately, to include retirement assets. Kids have mostly grown and with this latest revelation, she's out. She's basically been waiting for an excuse. She appreciated me letting her know and asked to stay in touch. She was so matter-of-fact about it.
> 
> Didn't someone here call it? Gotta love TAM.


/salute

ETA: Called it, though I didn’t take the time to type it out.

And regarding BS2’s comments regarding a statement, I *almost* posted “*cough* Bring a VAR!” when you mentioned going to meet up with your ex yesterday.

Not that it would be admissible in court. Plus it might have landed you in hot water.


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## sokillme

CynthiaDe said:


> I don't believe in revenge, but when it involves my children, I would NEVER do anything to make someone else look bad at the expense of my children no matter how much that person deserved it. These young women already know that their mother committed adultery against their father. Knowing more details isn't going to help them. Having a positive relationship with your parent is a huge blessing in life. Destroying that for your children isn't doing anyone any good.
> 
> Edit to add: In other words, telling the kids doesn't only ruin the ex's relationship with her children. It ruins it for the children. They should be able to decide on their own what they want to know, but I would be very careful about this and err on the side of caution.
> 
> Personally I learned things about my father that I wish I had never known. What I already knew was bad enough, but when I went to work with him, his colleagues told me stories that further damaged my relationship with him. That was about 30 years ago. My dad just passed away. We did not have a good relationship due to his adultery and my reaction to it. Sometimes I think it would have been better to not know how deeply flawed my father was. Maybe we could have had a better relationship. I don't know, but I'm glad my mother didn't do anything to make things worse between Dad and me. He did that all by himself without any help from her.


Ahh my Mom told me my Dad cheated when I figured it out kind of, I know the whole story, he also went on to cheat on his long term girlfriend as we all watched. My Mom told me to love my father as my father not as his spouse. Judge my relationship with him from my personal history with him not how he treats women. So my feeling on my Dad are as a husband he was a garbage, but as a father he was good to me. Not that hard to do really, I don't have to be married to the man. No one should be. Cromer's kids can do the same.


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## sokillme

GusPolinski said:


> Never again will they be able to sit in the same room with both of their parents on Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas morning, etc. And even if you’re able to manage that, it will never be the same. What it should have been.


Maybe they will sit in the same room with their fat depressed Mom, and their happy Father with his happy girlfriend. >

Just saying.


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> Great advice. I'm not thinking clearly about this subject right now, so your input is very helpful. I admit to being nervous about calling. She just messaged me again and said: "I would really like to talk."


Like I said in my other post. Here would be the gist of what I would say. 

Daughter, you Mother will always be your mother, and you should love and respect her. You need to judge your relationship with her by how she treats you, not me. Please keep that in mind with what I am about to tell you. Also I am not going to provide details as they are painful and really between your Mother and I. Sadly it has come to my attention that your mother never had any intention of being faithful to me in the marriage and was unfaithful a number of times that I now know of. What she did is terribly cruel but the worst of it is since there is no real way to know if she is telling the truth and since much of our relationship was built on longstanding lies I can't even say with confidence that I am your biological father. That is such a terrible thing for me to say to you, but this is where we are, this is the position she has put us all in. 

Please, please understand that I will always be your father and none of this changes my feeling for you, and I hope it doesn't change your feeling for me. I don't care if you don't want to know, but I also won't feel any different if you want to check just to be safe for any future health reasons, you may need to know your history. 

Again this is such an awful conversation to have and I wish we never had to have it but it is also important that we speak the truth as so much of our lives through no fault of our own were built on lies and you see where that has lead us. I hope you forgive your Mom for how she treated me as I don't think in her mind she realized she was hurting you. I think you Mom is very broken and hopefully she will get help. It's important to forgive. She is still your Mom. Also know that I will be alright. I was a good husband, and tried to do my best for you and for her. That is how I will chose to remember my marriage.


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## Taxman

Well, since BS2 has been looking to execute her post nup, OM2 is about to have his world implode. He may come looking for XWW. Whatever, it is good that others are getting consequences out of this felonious theft of Cromer's last decade. Once again, I am a vindictive son of a bi+ch, and I hope that everyone who took from Cromer gets a little taste of hell. Justice would be served, to a small extent. Sorry guys, I am an accountant, and the books are not balanced.


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## bandit.45

Cromer you say you dont want to punish your exWW anymore. 

May I ask...just how has she been punished?

She took half of your combined assets. 

She will get a steady income of alimony from you for the rest of her life. 

And all she had to do was give up a man who she didn’t want anyway. 

Except for suffering some embarrassment with her kids, how else has she been punished? I don’t see it.


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## Graywolf2

sokillme said:


> Daughter, you Mother will always be your mother, and you should love and respect her. You need to judge your relationship with her by how she treats you, not me.


I think that I would start out like the above and then tell her that she needs to ask her mother. Don't put yourself in the middle. She a smart girl and will handle it.

You don’t want to leave yourself open to being accused of making it sound worse than it is. I know that facts are facts but women are all about tone and the expression on your face. My wife tells me that I'm using a bad tone when I have no idea that I'm doing it. So it's not just saying that her mom was with three guys, it's how you say it and the expression on your face.

If your daughter's relationship with her mother is destroyed you don't want to be anywhere near that. The only way to keep your fingerprints off that is to be 0% involved. If a problem comes up in the future you can say: "Well I never discussed her affairs with the kids."

You complained that your ex wife just told you stuff you didn't want to know. Are you going to put yourself in a position of deciding how much of that stuff to tell your daughter? You resented your wife for telling you too much. How is your daughter going to feel about you?

Often we tell the WS to wait for a question from the BS and then answer honestly. In other words don’t spill your guts. There are some things that some BS would rather not know. 

In a way your daughter is in the same position with her mom. Let them work it out.

EDIT: If your daughter doesn't know already tell her that there was a meeting where her mother spilled her guts. Also let her know that her grandmother attended and the nice things she said to you. That way she will know that she can also go to her grandmother for information. Your adult kids need to know that their mother cheated and you didn't. They already know that. The extra facts will come out sooner or later without you being involved.


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## TAMAT

Cromer,

Thank you for informing the OMW, you really did the right thing and are a stand up kind of guy for it.

The OMW may have gone on for years and years with a sick feeling that her H was still lying to her, that he spent money he never told her about, that he never seemed to have love her or affection for her etc.

You set the OMW free in the same way the truth set you free. You passed on the favor.

You did not destroy OMs marriage he did by cheating and lying.

Few here would not want what you have given, but few will get it.

Tamat


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## Thor

Cromer said:


> No, I don't regret trying to take the high road. Maybe that makes me weak. Maybe I am a patsy. Maybe I should be more visceral about the whole thing. But, I need to move on and do so without causing more family damage and doing the best I can.


My mother had an affair and left my dad. She married the AP. That was 25+ years ago, when I and my siblings were in our late 20's. My mother told us about the affair in a family meeting with my Dad there, so it wasn't a secret from us. My Dad told us that he wanted us to have as good a relationship as possible with our mother. The marital issues were between the two of them and we should not take sides on what had happened. He also never made it a secret how he felt about what had happened or what he thought of the OM!

So that is what I would recommend for how you approach your kids. There's no need to keep secrets, and there is no need for gory details either. I think it is possible, maybe even likely, your xw is going to say something to the kids. Part of the making amends to everyone she's hurt. Or xMiL may say something to them. Or, a situation may arise where you want to tell them. What I would do is preempt it by telling them now that the marital issues don't involve the kids, and you want them to have as good a relationship with their mom as possible. They should not feel any pressure or need to take sides. If they ask questions I would be a bit vague, maybe something like your xw wasn't as focused or oriented on the marriage relationship as you needed her to be and the relationship broke down many years ago.

You feel like you've been run over by a train right now, but I think you will soon realize that having the truth will release weight from your shoulders. Having the truth will be a good thing for you in the long run.


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## Cromer

What a day. GF is gone for the evening. All we did was talk all night. She really helped to calm the storm. She's been betrayed, knows the deal, and even though I've only known her for just over three months I have come to trust her. Go figure, I said I'd never trust again. I don't understand how she wasn't snagged by someone before we met, but I'm sure glad she wasn't. I don't remember when I was able to talk to anyone like I can with her and she feels the same. Blame the fog.

For the drama du jour:

- XWW blowing up the phone with texts that I didn't read. Got to get her blocked.
- BS2 texted and said that XWW is going to send her an email with all the particulars, thanked me again and said she owed me dinner.
- For the big kicker: DD1 texted a lot and wanted to talk yesterday evening but I had my phone off and didn't answer. About an hour ago she texted "ru sure that ur my bio dad?" I hadn't planned on getting on TAM tonight but geeze. I needed to vent. I've got to call her shortly. WTF did mom tell her? I appreciate the advice about talking to her, not sure exactly what I am going to say. In any case, it doesn't matter to me, she is my daughter. I'm sure that she will want to confirm, and if XWW timeline was honest then she is mine. She looks a lot like my mother, same hair, etc. I'm just not worried about it.

GF has Spring Break coming up and we are going on a trip together. I have GOT to get outta here. GF has lost almost 15 pounds since we've been dating and when I noticed last night she said: "I want to wear a bikini again." I told her she's always been bikini ready and let's do it! I told her to get her passport (gotta do a rush) and let me do the rest. I will surprise her. Since she's never been out of the country I'm thinking the Bahamas. I'm sure she will love it. 

Someone suggested that I give her a framed picture of us for her birthday. That's what I am going to do, except I am going to make the frame. It's going to be layered with cherry, walnut, and red oak, cut to expose the different woods in a pattern, and have a very nice lacquered finish. I will make sure to tell her not to throw away the frame if she kicks me to the curb someday.

While we are gone bro friend, bro friend wife, and a couple of her friends are going to redecorate several rooms in the house. This is kinda what she does for a living. I am giving her a budget, tagging the few things I want to stay (GF and I did that today), then she will do a reveal when we get back. It will be fun.

I read all of the previous comments and appreciate the time everyone takes to reply. Yea, I'm in an f'd up situation. Sure, I could try to get another pound of flesh from XWW. Yes, it may seem like she hasn't been punished but she is doing a great job of that herself. I don't need to pile on, it's just the way I feel. GF actually agreed even though she despises XWW. I think that I am going to unblock XWW on fb, then post dozens of photos of me with GF on a Bahama beach with fruity drinks...

ETA: GF and I updated fb status together today. Take a guess...


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## Marc878

I would not waste another minute of my time on XWW.

Life's too short !!!


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> What a day. GF is gone for the evening. All we did was talk all night. She really helped to calm the storm. She's been betrayed, knows the deal, and even though I've only known her for just over three months I have come to trust her. Go figure, I said I'd never trust again. I don't understand how she wasn't snagged by someone before we met, but I'm sure glad she wasn't. I don't remember when I was able to talk to anyone like I can with her and she feels the same. Blame the fog.
> 
> For the drama du jour:
> 
> - XWW blowing up the phone with texts that I didn't read. Got to get her blocked.
> - BS2 texted and said that XWW is going to send her an email with all the particulars, thanked me again and said she owed me dinner.
> - For the big kicker: DD1 texted a lot and wanted to talk yesterday evening but I had my phone off and didn't answer. About an hour ago she texted "ru sure that ur my bio dad?" I hadn't planned on getting on TAM tonight but geeze. I needed to vent. I've got to call her shortly. WTF did mom tell her? I appreciate the advice about talking to her, not sure exactly what I am going to say.
> 
> GF has Spring Break coming up and we are going on a trip together. I have GOT to get outta here. GF has lost almost 15 pounds since we've been dating and when I noticed last night she said: "I want to wear a bikini again." I told her she's always been bikini ready and let's do it! I told her to get her passport (gotta do a rush) and let me do the rest. I will surprise her. Since she's never been out of the country I'm thinking the Bahamas. I'm sure she will love it.
> 
> Someone suggested that I give her a framed picture of us for her birthday. That's what I am going to do, except I am going to make the frame. It's going to be layered with cherry, walnut, and red oak, cut to expose the different woods in a pattern, and have a very nice lacquered finish. I will make sure to tell her not to throw away the frame if she kicks me to the curb someday.
> 
> While we are gone bro friend, bro friend wife, and a couple of her friends are going to redecorate several rooms in the house. This is kinda what she does for a living. I am giving her a budget, tagging the few things I want to stay (GF and I did that today), then she will do a reveal when we get back. It will be fun.
> 
> I read all of the previous comments and appreciate the time everyone takes to reply. Yea, I'm in an f'd up situation. Sure, I could try to get another pound of flesh from XWW. Yes, it may seem like she hasn't been punished but she is doing a great job of that herself. I don't need to pile on, it's just the way I feel. GF actually agreed even though she despises XWW. I think that I am going to unblock XWW on fb, then post dozens of photos of me with GF on a Bahama beach with fruity drinks...


Gezz, I'm not Nostradamus but still. Read my post again, the one about what you should say to your daughter. You have no idea if what your wife said was the truth as far as the timing or even if their were only 3 affairs. Even if your daughter only knows the story that your wife told you it still leaves SO much room for doubt. Your vision of this is still tainted by the fact that this was a women you loved once. Your wife was a big conman who ran a very long con on you. She was basically a open for business your whole marriage. Unfortunately you have no ability to read her, and she is practiced in lying to you. It's her M.O. I am sure your daughter knows she can't basically trust a word she says now. 

I really feel bad for your daughter and all your kids. You are mostly detached and you have this new women who so far sounds nice, (though you should be careful). Remember your daughter is just finding out that her mother was a complete and utter phony. Depending on the age of your other kids I would not let them know how much of their Mom is just a fake. If they are adults then they should know and the paternity is important in the sense that if they want to know they should check. Make sure you let them know that it doesn't change a thing as far as you are concerned. Also you should prepare yourself, I think there is more then a small chance that it could be. Your wife is that ****ed up. Also I don't think they should learn this stuff from their sister. You should tell them, this is serious life changing stuff we are dealing with. This is not just your marriage anymore it's who they are in a way. 

You wife is an embarrassment unfortunately. You need to say some version of what I wrote, have I not predicted all of this ****? Did I not say their may be more affairs (I am pretty sure I did, I may have even said their may be cheating before you found out). Even now there may even be more then she has admitted to, it could even get worse. Did I not warn you NOT to take her confession. Did I not say she would continue to want to contact you, like she is doing by blowing up your phone. She will continue to contact your girlfriend too, and if it gets bad you better get a restraining order or she will try to ruin that too. Your wife is a narcissist or maybe even a sociopath.

The thing with all of this is it follows very clear patterns.


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## Cromer

@sokillme The one thing about my kids that they all look like mine. I know, I know that's not anything but they all look like siblings, and they have a lot of traits from my side of the family. I will talk with them all but DD1 is the key here. If she doesn't freak then the others won't. I'm about to call her. I'm sure she's gonna want to get tested.

I have to say that there was an alien in my XWW. One that I had no idea existed and was actually her true self. When she did her "big reveal" it finally became clear that she was a complete stranger to me. It took me a while to understand that but I have no idea who she really is or what she is about. I think that she believed that she lived the last 10 years of our marriage as the woman I thought she was, sans intimacy, and everything was OK in her addled mind. Who knows.

I know you said not to meet her, but I'm glad I did. For some reason, I do believe she told me the truth. She seemed determined for me to know and I'm not convinced it was her intent to hurt me more. I admit it was painful, hard to hear, will hurt for a while, and overall sucked. But, I would rather know the truth, and if it hadn't been for meeting XWW, BS2 would not have known about OM2. If anything, it was worth it for her sake. She will be free, and I take solace in that.

My immediate concern is getting the issue of paternity settled in DD1's eyes, and I will do whatever it takes to bring her peace about this.


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## sokillme

One more thing while I am thinking about it. It's nice that you found this very nice women but make sure you take it slow. Not just for you but for her, right now your feelings are clouded with this very intense emotional turmoil you are going through but once the drama and adrenaline calms down, only then will you really have a sense if this a long term deal. You were on the right page a few days ago when both of you talked about taking your time. For both of you this doesn't have to be the one and only. Maybe it is but it could also just be two people who helped each other heal.


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## Cromer

sokillme said:


> One more thing while I am thinking about it. It's nice that you found this very nice women but make sure you take it slow. Not just for you but for her, right now your feelings are clouded with this very intense emotional turmoil you are going through but once the drama and adrenaline calms down, only then will you really have a sense if this a long term deal. You were on the right page a few days ago when both of you talked about taking your time. For both of you this doesn't have to be the one and only. Maybe it is but it could also just be two people who helped each other heal.


You are right, and we talked about this last night. She really wasn't looking to get involved with someone, but admits that she has some very strong feelings right now. She has much more post-divorce experience than I, and she is more level-headed about this than I am, but she said that her judgement was clouded and that's not usually her. I damn sure know mine's clouded. We've agreed to just enjoy things as they come.


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## Marc878

You've been detached for 10 years so the normal for someone coming out of divorce may not fully apply in your case.

With that said no need to rush anything


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## farsidejunky

Cromer:

Slow your roll, dude.

You are literally ratcheting up the new relationship at a pace commensurate with the increased madness of your XWW.

SLOW DOWN.

She will still be there if it is meant to be.

As for your daughter, just remind her that no matter what may come, she will always be your little girl, and that no paternity test will change that.


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> @sokillme The one thing about my kids that they all look like mine. I know, I know that's not anything but they all look like siblings, and they have a lot of traits from my side of the family. I will talk with them all but DD1 is the key here. If she doesn't freak then the others won't. I'm about to call her. I'm sure she's gonna want to get tested.
> 
> I have to say that there was an alien in my XWW. One that I had no idea existed and was actually her true self. When she did her "big reveal" it finally became clear that she was a complete stranger to me. It took me a while to understand that but I have no idea who she really is or what she is about. I think that she believed that she lived the last 10 years of our marriage as the woman I thought she was, sans intimacy, and everything was OK in her addled mind. Who knows.


Your wife is emotionally retarded. She has serious emotional problems which are now manifesting without YOU, who was her stability their. You see this all the time, once the one person in their life who was their anchor is gone their whole world blows up, no one will even know what the deal is. DON'T let her use one of your kids as her anchor now, as I am sure she will try to. Seems to be a lot of people like her as this is not the first time I have read this story. 

Don't assume just because she is sad that she even gets a 10th of what she has done. I am telling you from reading WS in their own words it's really like a part of their brain is just not developed. The stories are all so alike. You go and read the threads where the cheaters anonymously celebrate what they are doing (I have mistakenly seen these once and a while on Reddit and places). These are where they are totally honest, you read those and they revel in what they do. The danger and despicable nature of it is part of the enticement. It's why there are songs about, "if loving your is wrong I don't want to be right". It's why there are books like "Bridges of Mad1son County". (Not sure why Mad1son is blocked??!) People think that way, they love to think that way. Your wife thought that way. Then once caught they revel in the melodrama of the shame. They roll all around it, gnash their teeth and tear their clothes. The whole thing is like a high like they get off of the intensity of the craziness. You as a normal person are never going to get it. 

I wonder what her Mother things? Where was the father?




Cromer said:


> I know you said not to meet her, but I'm glad I did. For some reason, I do believe she told me the truth.


This is what they call confirmation bias. Throughout this entire thread you have been saying their was NO WAY to every bad thing that we predicted. Sorry dude but you really have no idea. When you think you know you would do better to remind yourself that you don't. I get that that is tough but it's better then to keep getting blindsided by her. Your wife is an expert liar. 



Cromer said:


> She seemed determined for me to know and I'm not convinced it was her intent to hurt me more. I admit it was painful, hard to hear, will hurt for a while, and overall sucked. But, I would rather know the truth, and if it hadn't been for meeting XWW, BS2 would not have known about OM2. If anything, it was worth it for her sake. She will be free, and I take solace in that.


The only thing you should be certain she is determined to do would be to save her ass. I would be more likely to think that in her crazy mixed up mind this was the start of you getting back together. More likely it was a power play of some kind. As far as being free, you need to stop projecting how you think on her. So many people who get burned by people like this do this. She doesn't think this way. She is not thinking I did these terribly immoral things. She doesn't think that way if she did she wouldn't have done them in the first place. People don't all of the sudden have an epiphany and realize they are morally broken. What she is thinking is how sad she is that her life blew up. She is thinking what she has been telling you. "*I* am going to be alone because *I* am losing my looks now, and my fallback (quazi parent) is gone. This was not how this was supposed to go". She was quite content to live in a sexless marriage with you for 10 years. Not a thought for you. She probably confessed because her Mom told her too. So who knows if she even confessed the worst. Again this women doesn't think in rights and wrongs. The thinks me and everyone else. She is not going to get better by confessing because she is not falling apart from guilt of what she did, she is falling apart because she is looking at the potential of the rest of her life sucking. Confessing hasn't changed that. 

It's great and honorable you told OW2 but you need to also tell OW3. The guy who did this is going to cheat on is wife, just like your wife it's in his nature. He is a guy probably active in a church and conning is current wife. You can use the STD as the reason to contact her. You as a soldier should know you have a responsibility to protect the innocent. When he does cheat on his wife or if he has already, knowing that he was also ****ing a married soldiers wife while the guy was away fighting for his country will put who he really is in stark context. It will give her the full information when she needs to make her choices. And besides all that **** him, why should he just get away with that ****. It's people seeing other people getting away with it that lets them do it.

If it was me I would find him and find his wife. Then right before you tell her, friend him on FB. That should make his day. 



Cromer said:


> My immediate concern is getting the issue of paternity settled in DD1's eyes, and I will do whatever it takes to bring her peace about this.


Just love your daughter and kids. Don't let your toxic ex-wife use her for a replacement of you. Assume the worst of your ex from now on, it will keep you and your kids a lot safer. If she surprises you then good, but at least the surprises will be in a good way.


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## Cromer

farsidejunky said:


> Cromer:
> 
> Slow your roll, dude.
> 
> You are literally ratcheting up the new relationship at a pace commensurate with the increased madness of your XWW.
> 
> SLOW DOWN.
> 
> *She will still be there if it is meant to be.
> *
> As for your daughter, just remind her that no matter what may come, she will always be your little girl, and that no paternity test will change that.


Perhaps taking her on a trip is ratcheting it up, but it will make both of us happy and it will be fun. If things ultimately don't work out, they don't. What she does or who she is is out of my control. I accept that now.

I used to believe in "if it were meant to be", but not anymore. That's leaving an outcome to either God or Fate. I am beginning to believe that we have to make our own "meant to be" within the means that we have at our control, and carefully weigh the risk with the elements that are out of our control. I'm not blind, and I know there are pitfalls. On the other hand, I haven't enjoyed this part of my life so much in years. At least if I get hurt, it will only be my feelings at risk which right now, I don't even know how to classify.


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## farsidejunky

And the last sentence of the above post perfectly demonstrates why you should be taking things slowly.

Man...I want you to be happy. Make no mistake on that. I would hope you believe that with all sincerity.

Just keep your head AND your heart working in unison rather than letting the latter run unbridled.


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## Cromer

farsidejunky said:


> And the last sentence of the above post perfectly demonstrates why you should be taking things slowly.
> 
> Man...I want you to be happy. Make no mistake on that. I would hope you believe that with all sincerity.
> 
> Just keep your head AND your heart working in unison rather than letting the latter run unbridled.


Good point, as always! I am in such a weird place right now, I don't know how to describe it. You know though, when all of the dust settles, all will be right with the universe.

Gotta say though, I am really, really liking the gf. I can tell that she is very much into me as well, it's all of the little things. I know I've got to be careful but part of me doesn't want to be. Go figure.


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> Perhaps taking her on a trip is ratcheting it up, but it will make both of us happy and it will be fun. If things ultimately don't work out, they don't. What she does or who she is is out of my control. I accept that now.
> 
> I used to believe in "if it were meant to be", but not anymore. That's leaving an outcome to either God or Fate. I am beginning to believe that we have to make our own "meant to be" within the means that we have at our control, and carefully weigh the risk with the elements that are out of our control. I'm not blind, and I know there are pitfalls. On the other hand, I haven't enjoyed this part of my life so much in years. At least if I get hurt, it will only be my feelings at risk which right now, I don't even know how to classify.


Just slow down. She doesn't have to be the "meant to be" yet. She can just be the, "This is a good time right now and we will see where it goes." Stop thinking that this one relationship is the only potential you have for happiness. This is just one of a very many things and people who can give you happiness. Meaning that you should cultivate lots of relationships (talking friends here) that bring happiness. 

And slowing down doesn't mean not going forward, it means not putting all of your potential for happiness in this one woman's arms. It's actually not fair for her as again you are not in your right mind right now. She doesn't need to get hurt as well. Just enjoy your time but don't make the whole thing life and death or the only thing in each others life. You just got out of a long relationship you need to establish a larger support system.


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## Cromer

sokillme said:


> You just got out of a long relationship you need to establish a larger support system.


It may not seem like it from what I've posted, but I have a huge support system. Not just family, but good friends. I have the church social circle intact (XWW left to be with her mother), a well-established network of friends, and I mean "fire-pit" friends, from the volunteer work that I have done for years, my bro for life and his wife who are awesome, etc. I've gotten the "be careful" speech from the womenfolk, and the "go for it dude, knock the bottom out of it" speech from the menfolk. Interesting perspectives LOL. When all of the turmoil of divorce unfolded and XWW left the house, I wasn't alone and didn't have to cook for weeks.

No. The support system I have is enduring. What GF and I have is something else, but it's still young and undecided. But we are lost in the moment, at least I am. I'm not gonna deny it.

If all else fails, I really will sell everything, buy the 45' sailboat I've always wanted, and troll the Florida Keys in the winter and points north in the summer with a cat named Sharkbait.


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## sokillme

One last thing. I wasn't going to write this today but I figured since I already wrote a treatise on here I might as well spend the whole night. What the hell you did go to war for me. 

You are in counseling right? I think you should be. I don't know but you may want to see if you are not a little codependent, or if your picker is broke. No offense and I am not putting you down but you did miss that your wife was capable of this. Also your primary relationship with a women was with a women whom was abusing you the whole time. I am of the firm belief that these kind of people just don't treat their spouses bad by cheating, they treat them bad in all manor of the relationship. Again you may not have a good baseline to determine what is acceptable in a relationship because your only one was with such an awful person. You should do some reading about codependency and women narcissists. If only to get a better idea of where you accepted stuff that you shouldn't. 

This last one may be seem a little harsh, maybe controversial but I think I should say it. I am worried you may be one of these guys who when they like a women pretty much genuflect to the deity of her womanhood. Meaning when you fall in love with a women, you turn her into the goddess Diana who must be worshiped and adored. I can't tell you the number of guys who do this and then get cheated on. It's like a pattern over and over. Their wives can do no wrong, but worst when their wives do do wrong or mistreat them they assume it's something to do with themselves, or that they are not good enough husbands. They think that being a good husband is doing whatever she wants even if she is cruel. 

That doesn't make a good marriage and it doesn't make a good husband. Women get tired of husbands like that. It's like the old story if you get steak dinner for free over and over you eventually don't think it's that special anymore. Your spouse should be your equal, your peer. Someone who makes you stronger, they can't do that if you dominate them. Eventually you lose respect for them. You can be the strongest man in the world but if you are emotionally weak she will hate that ****. 

This is not me saying be mean, dominate or anything like that. You should always be kind to your spouse. By all means romance her and shower her with love. Try really hard to communicate and be emotionally in touch with her. But if she has a bad day and comes home a blows up on you, the healthy response should be, "What the hell, you have no right to talk to me that way". When they are taking advantage of your, or take you for granted you better call them on that ****. Let them know that you are not going to put up with it, and DON'T put up with it. You will have a better marriage. Your partner will respect you for it.

Now none of that may apply to you. But if it does you need to fix that ****. Your spouse should be your teammate/ helper not your goddess. It's a much better dynamic. 

I admit this is pretentious for me to even write. (hasn't stopped me before, plus I got some good beer in me right now. Plus there are enough guys and girls who do this so it may help someone.) By all means now is the time to dive deep get counseling, do lots of reading. Correct any places you many have gone off course or any bad habits you may have picked up being marred to the devil. Just saying.


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## Cynthia

I can only imagine what your kids must be thinking and feeling right now. This has got to be stressful and difficult for them. Your world has been rocked in a very difficult way, but this is their whole lives being tossed. They don't even know their mother anymore. They cannot divorce her. She is their mother. I feel horrible for them.

What on earth has ex told them? That's what concerns me right now is what she told your girls and how they are dealing with all of this trauma. They may need family counseling.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> The support system I have is enduring. What GF and I have is something else, but it's still young and undecided. But we are lost in the moment, at least I am. I'm not gonna deny it.


Good. 

Hey, enjoy the hell of of falling in love. That's great! Nothing better then that. You deserve it, and like I said in my other post maybe it's ordained. All any of us are saying is just be careful. You don't want to be another guy who brakes this girls heart, and you know that the trauma you are going through keeps you kind of a little off as far as being in touch with your feelings. No doubt they are effected by the intensity of it all. Like you know when you eat a hot pepper and then everything you eat taste that much more intense for a little bit? That's what it's like for you right now. I think this is all we are trying to warn you against.

Besides that I DO think you will be fine if it doesn't work out. I mean you went through the worst one, the first one. Nothing is worse then the first one. If you can get through that you now know you can get through anything.

I personally are more worried that after things calm down your feelings for this women will not be as strong and you will hurt her. You don't want to use her as a rebound.


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## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> I can only imagine what your kids must be thinking and feeling right now. This has got to be stressful and difficult for them. Your world has been rocked in a very difficult way, but this is their whole lives being tossed. They don't even know their mother anymore. They cannot divorce her. She is their mother. I feel horrible for them.
> 
> What on earth has ex told them? That's what concerns me right now is what she told your girls and how they are dealing with all of this trauma. They may need family counseling.


This could be my worse nightmare. I haven't put everything here but I have done my best to make this the least problematic for them. But, I can't control their mom, obviously. I've taken some hits in this forum because my number one, most important, and life-defining issue for me is the happiness of my kids. I don't want them to see their dad destroy their mom, disrespecting their mom, or breaking their mom. 

One of the things I learned about leadership over the years is setting an example. What example would I set if I were to try and destroy their mom to them? Be disrespectful to their mom? I am especially sensitive when it comes to DS3, because I never want him to think it is all right to disrespect a woman, even if he was wronged in some way. Sure that's old school but that's me. It's not who I am, and not who I want him to be. Or my daughters? What example what I be setting as a man who harbored only a desire to humiliate and destroy their mother? 

You are right, they can't divorce her. So much of my decision making during the past year has been shaped by that fact. If their relationship with their mother is destroyed, it will be her doing, not mine. They will remember their dad as the man who always treated their mother more than fairly and with respect.

I know that I am way old school and passe, but I believe it is a man's duty to protect the women in his life. My daughters are those women now, and my XWW is their mother. While someone may say that I am protecting my XWW, what I am really doing is trying my best to protect her relationship with our children the best way I know how.

People are going to think I'm weak for thinking this way, but it's what I think is right. I don't have to interact with XWW to do my duty as dad when it comes to their mom.


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## Cromer

sokillme said:


> Good.
> I personally are more worried that after things calm down your feelings for this women will not be as strong and you will hurt her. You don't want to use her as a rebound.


This is what concerns me most. Oh, how I do NOT want to hurt this woman. She wasn't looking to get into a relationship but here she is, and I can't describe how she has bared her life and soul to me. Not to mention, in her words she's become an entirely different "sexual creature" because she trusts me. She is utterly smitten, so am I, and hurting her would be worse for me than hearing how my XWW has been a c*m dumpster for other men all of those years. 

You are right in every respect. The fog is thick my friend.


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> This could be my worse nightmare. I haven't put everything here but I have done my best to make this the least problematic for them. But, I can't control their mom, obviously. I've taken some hits in this forum because my number one, most important, and life-defining issue for me is the happiness of my kids. I don't want them to see their dad destroy their mom, disrespecting their mom, or breaking their mom.
> 
> One of the things I learned about leadership over the years is setting an example. What example would I set if I were to try and destroy their mom to them? Be disrespectful to their mom? I am especially sensitive when it comes to DS3, because I never want him to think it is all right to disrespect a woman, even if he was wronged in some way. Sure that's old school but that's me. It's not who I am, and not who I want him to be. Or my daughters? What example what I be setting as a man who harbored only a desire to humiliate and destroy their mother?
> 
> You are right, they can't divorce her. So much of my decision making during the past year has been shaped by that fact. If their relationship with their mother is destroyed, it will be her doing, not mine. They will remember their dad as the man who always treated their mother more than fairly and with respect.
> 
> I know that I am way old school and passe, but I believe it is a man's duty to protect the women in his life. My daughters are those women now, and my XWW is their mother. While someone may say that I am protecting my XWW, what I am really doing is trying my best to protect her relationship with our children the best way I know how.
> 
> People are going to think I'm weak for thinking this way, but it's what I think is right. I don't have to interact with XWW to do my duty as dad when it comes to their mom.


You can protect her relationship with them but you need to acknowledge at least even to yourself who she is and that you can't trust a word she says. In the end that IS protecting them. They are going to find out sooner or later man. The best you can do is try to separate her as a Mom with her as a Wife. However if any one of them is not biologically your kid that goes out the window. None of this is your fault and you really have no control over that. You just have to try to contain the fall out. 

Did you talk to your daughter yet? What is the deal with her Dad? Normally women like your wife have Daddy issues.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> This is what concerns me most. Oh, how I do NOT want to hurt this woman. She wasn't looking to get into a relationship but here she is, and I can't describe how she has bared her life and soul to me. Not to mention, in her words she's become an entirely different "sexual creature" because she trusts me. She is utterly smitten, so am I, and hurting her would be worse for me than hearing how my XWW has been a c*m dumpster for other men all of those years.
> 
> You are right in every respect. The fog is thick my friend.


You're a ****ing soldier, discipline my friend. It's the same thing. Tell her to protect herself a little, maybe don't do the all out sex right now as that creates more feelings. Put that on hold for a little bit.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> You can protect her relationship with them but you need to acknowledge at least even to yourself who she is and that you can't trust a word she says. In the end that IS protecting them. They are going to find out sooner or later man. The best you can do is try to separate her as a Mom with her as a Wife. However if any one of them is not biologically your kid that goes out the window. None of this is your fault and you really have no control over that. You just have to try to contain the fall out.
> 
> Did you talk to your daughter yet? What is the deal with her Dad? Normally women like your wife have Daddy issues.


My XWW parents were married 40 years before he died of cancer. She had the "Leave it to Beaver" family. Working dad, SAHM, etc. She had everything she needed and wanted growing up, went to private school, finished college with no debt, and had every advantage. Her dad was awesome. Completely devoted family man. He and I hung out quite a bit back in the day and I loved his company. My XWW has only fond memories of her dad. I remember when I asked his permission to marry, and his response was "Let's go to the club, buy me a couple of drinks, then ask me like a man" LOL. On our wedding night, the reception was in a hotel and he and his buds had been drinking. When we were getting ready to go to our room, we saw him to say good night. He said to us "get upstairs and show her who's boss" and smacked me on my butt. She loved her dad and really took his loss hard, he was 62.

I told DD1 that we will talk tomorrow. She wants to come over. Ugh.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> My XWW parents were married 40 years before he died of cancer. She had the "Leave it to Beaver" family. Working dad, SAHM, etc. She had everything she needed and wanted growing up, went to private school, finished college with no debt, and had every advantage. Her dad was awesome. Completely devoted family man. He and I hung out quite a bit back in the day and I loved his company. My XWW has only fond memories of her dad. I remember when I asked his permission to marry, and his response was "Let's go to the club, buy me a couple of drinks, then ask me like a man" LOL. On our wedding night, the reception was in a hotel and he and his buds had been drinking. When we were getting ready to go to our room, we saw him to say good night. He said to us "get upstairs and show her who's boss" and smacked me on my butt. She loved her dad and really took his loss hard, he was 62.
> 
> I told DD1 that we will talk tomorrow. She wants to come over. Ugh.


One never knows. It really is in the genes. Something goes wrong probably before they are born, who knows. To have all those advantages, at least as far as we know and to end up where she did. What a waste. Seems like her life was touched, and she basically threw it all away for some cheap thrills. Maybe she just didn't appreciate it. At least now you get to have the thrills in a moral way and her life is in ruins.

What do you think your Mother-in-law thinks? She must be crushed at all the wasted effort she put into her.


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## skerzoid

Cromer:

1. Your XWW exposed her past as a weapon against you for being happy with someone else.

2. Write out what you want your DD to know and allow her to explain it to her siblings. She should advise them to get their DNA tested. Whether you like it or not, an accurate medical history needs to be established for them and your grandchildren. Coming from a sibling, it could actually be less of a blow. If your first instinct is to protect your children, then protect them from their mother!!! She is a narcissist and she will try to use them also. Good mothers don't risk their children's physical, financial, and emotional health. The mother instinct is not present in a narcissist.

3. You are not this woman's protector. You have never been this woman's protector. She didn't want to be protected. She ran from your protection. The only reason she didn't have other affairs was because she contracted an incurable STD. She would have been sleeping with others for the last ten years if she could have. You were the father figure, she the wild daughter sneaking out the bedroom window to meet her boyfriend of the moment. You provided home and hearth.

4. You are a warrior and your first instinct is to protect the gates. Your wife's first instinct was to lower the drawbridge and invite the barbarians in to despoil the castle. If she was put in front of a firing squad as her just deserts for being a traitor, your instinct would be to jump in front of her and take the bullets. FOR GOD'S SAKE, GET OVER HER.

5. Why all the angst with the girl friend? **** her like you mean it!


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## oldshirt

sokillme said:


> You're a ****ing soldier, discipline my friend. It's the same thing. Tell her to protect herself a little, maybe don't do the all out sex right now as that creates more feelings. Put that on hold for a little bit.


Dude!!!!!!! 

The man just got out of *ten years* of being rejected and blown off by a woman he loved and adored and now you are telling him to go back in to sexual excile??? :-O

F**k that! This gal digs him and wants him after her own period of dormancy and loneliness.

Screw caution and restraint! They should be ravaging each other day and night to their heart's content.

As long as they are consenting, responsible adults who are humane and respectful of each other and as long as they aren't spreading herpes throughout the countryside it is all fair game.
@Cromer you ravage that hot mamma until she pleads for mercy and don't let anyone try to scare you into celibacy ever again.

You paid your abstinence dues on the alter of being a "Nice Guy." 

Never be pussified by other people's hang ups ever again. As long as it is a sane, sober, consenting adult, you have a right to your own sexuality until you die.


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## oldshirt

skerzoid said:


> 5. Why all the angst with the girl friend? **** her like you mean it!


No $h1+ !!!!!!!

Are we men and adults here or are we scared little mice that scatter and run if we think there is something that might not be perfect down the road at some point.

These are full grown, sane, sober, educated, gainfully employed, professional adults that have been around the world and have accrued a lifetime of worldly experience.

If I hear one more person tell him to run for his safe room and seal himself into his underground zombie shelter one more time because things may not be perfect with his GF for an eternity I am going to come unhinged. 

They are full grown, educated, middle aged adults. If they want to tear each to shreds in their passion, that is their right and perogative.

If they get bruises on their naughty bits or eventually say farewell, that is a risk that is on them whether to take or not.


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## Edmund

Cromer said:


> - For the big kicker: DD1 texted a lot and wanted to talk yesterday evening but I had my phone off and didn't answer. About an hour ago she texted "ru sure that ur my bio dad?" I hadn't planned on getting on TAM tonight but geeze. I needed to vent. I've got to call her shortly. WTF did mom tell her? I appreciate the advice about talking to her, not sure exactly what I am going to say. In any case, it doesn't matter to me, she is my daughter. I'm sure that she will want to confirm, and if XWW timeline was honest then she is mine. She looks a lot like my mother, same hair, etc. I'm just not worried about it.
> 
> *This is a huge delimma, Cromer. You don't want to test DNA because you are afraid it might show DD1 is biologically some other man's daughter, and you are satisfied in believing that is not the case because of looks, hair, resemblence to your mother. On the other hand, DD1 is not convinced by these factors and wants the DNA test to prove you are her father, but also because she has to know her true biological heritage, regardless of what it is. I believe that you are a damn good man, Cromer. I pray for your sake the DNA test will prove she is your bio daughter.*
> 
> ETA: GF and I updated fb status together today. Take a guess...


*OK I am guessing you both changed it to "in a relationship".*


----------



## bandit.45

Cromer said:


> You are right, and we talked about this last night. She really wasn't looking to get involved with someone, but admits that she has some very strong feelings right now. She has much more post-divorce experience than I, and she is more level-headed about this than I am, *but she said that her judgement was clouded and that's not usually her*. I damn sure know mine's clouded. We've agreed to just enjoy things as they come.


Ill tell ya what happened...:grin2:

You got her d*ck-drunk. :corkysm60: You're THAT good in bed. Boss man!! 

Don't slow down the sex, no matter what others tell you. As long as she's willing... crack some drywall. 

You can go fast in bed but still take it slow with the relationship.


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## sokillme

You guys are not wrong. I am just saying both of them should be careful with the ever afters stuff after 3 months. Whatever way you do that.


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## Noble1

@Cromer, your post has it shares of ups and downs and drama for sure.

Glad to see it working out for you finally.

I am happy to see how you are keeping to your morals and not letting things bring you down to a 'lower level'.

A post you made awhile ago prompted me to remember a saying that I feel is appropriate to you - "living well is the best revenge"

You have done good and even better than anyone deserves to everyone involved in your situation.

As you mentioned, there is no need to burn anyone to the ground, just move on and live the best possible life on your own terms.

Good luck.


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## Cynthia

Sorry, for some reason I thought you had three girls. Do you have two daughters and a son?

You are doing a great job with your kids. Your attitude is exactly what they need to see regarding their mother. 

If your kids want to be DNA tested, that is up to them and I'd advise you continuing with your line of action to go along with it if that's what they want. However, I would not ask any of them to do so for you. As you have said, they are your children no matter what. You bonded with them, raised them, love them with all your heart. You are their father.

You are right about not seeking to destroy their mother. She has done that all by herself. It is not your job to give her consequences or punish her. I do not believe in that. Civil authority is put in place to handle justice. Eternal justice is handled by God. If we all go around trying to pay people back with consequences for bad behavior, it is a waste of time and energy, plus it doesn't work anyway. It only makes our world a worse place. Furthermore, your ex is now miserable. She even looks a mess. Clearly she is paying a price for who she has allowed herself to become. She has been completely humiliated and even her children don't trust her anymore. I cannot imagine a worse consequence personally. 



Cromer said:


> This could be my worse nightmare. I haven't put everything here but I have done my best to make this the least problematic for them. But, I can't control their mom, obviously. I've taken some hits in this forum because my number one, most important, and life-defining issue for me is the happiness of my kids. I don't want them to see their dad destroy their mom, disrespecting their mom, or breaking their mom.
> 
> One of the things I learned about leadership over the years is setting an example. What example would I set if I were to try and destroy their mom to them? Be disrespectful to their mom? I am especially sensitive when it comes to DS3, because I never want him to think it is all right to disrespect a woman, even if he was wronged in some way. Sure that's old school but that's me. It's not who I am, and not who I want him to be. Or my daughters? What example what I be setting as a man who harbored only a desire to humiliate and destroy their mother?
> 
> You are right, they can't divorce her. So much of my decision making during the past year has been shaped by that fact. If their relationship with their mother is destroyed, it will be her doing, not mine. They will remember their dad as the man who always treated their mother more than fairly and with respect.
> 
> I know that I am way old school and passe, but I believe it is a man's duty to protect the women in his life. My daughters are those women now, and my XWW is their mother. While someone may say that I am protecting my XWW, what I am really doing is trying my best to protect her relationship with our children the best way I know how.
> 
> People are going to think I'm weak for thinking this way, but it's what I think is right. I don't have to interact with XWW to do my duty as dad when it comes to their mom.


----------



## oldshirt

sokillme said:


> You guys are not wrong. I am just saying both of them should be careful with the ever afters stuff after 3 months. Whatever way you do that.


I get what you are saying and you aren't entirely wrong either. Everyone has to keep some wits about them.

But playing it safe and listening to everyone else's conventional wisdom is what got him a decade of involuntary abstinence with a cheating ho. 

Telling him to back off the sex now is like telling a starving man to go easy on the chocolate moose and hot fudge sundae when he finally gets to a buffet.

Yes he might get sick and puke it back up, so advising to have restraint is somewhat valid........ But who cares. 

If he's willing to have a belly ache and spend some quality time in the bathroom afterwards, that's his perogative, his risk and his choice.


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## Taxman

Cromer.
You are in a new relationship, and both of you came into this with a long line of hurts committed by previous partners. Right now you are both getting the, "OMG I am in a relationship, and my new SO is not ignoring me, cheating on me, treating me like shytte, etc etc etc". It is so nice to find someone that is not making you hurt for loving them. I have witnessed this, and have only one piece of advice: go with the flow. Do not analyze, do not criticize, enjoy each other, do not overthink or make rules. If you pass by and get aroused, take her to the bed. If she passes by and wants to hug and kiss, then do so, and enjoy, enjoy and enjoy. I see an awful lot of 50-60 somethings. The ones that have passed through that one mile long drainpipe filled with puke and crap, to find a beautiful calm lake at the end, enjoy it, and do not question it. If I were you sir, I would take her on a nice trip, a dirty weekend in Vegas is what my go to has always been, a few shows, some gambling, some really spectacular meals, and many of the hotels have hot tubs in the room. Go forth and enjoy the hell out of it.

With respect to your DD and your kids, they probably know most, if not all of it. It is not your job to be your EXWW's protector. Her heinous behavior is now the albatross around her neck. Given that your eldest knows a whole lot, and probably will want the entire story, then be truthful, let her defend herself. That is no longer your job. What she did, will come out. One notices she is in a confessional state. That is because life as she knew it ended, and she is having difficulty understanding the consequences of her actions. Three affairs, while you kept your powder dry? In my estimation sir, you are a hero, you did your duty for 30 years, and were served a platter of horse manure by your wife. Now she does not understand why you did not eat everything on the platter and ask for seconds. Me, I would just say to her: You could not make room for my **** in your vage for the last ten years, I guess it was crowded out by all of the guys you wh0red yourself out for. Have fun being alone for the rest of your life. Then I would just say, this is your penance for the crimes you committed against me. If you have neither me nor our children, then it is by your own hand, and you can suffer for it. Personally, I have a client that lost her husband and children under similar circumstances. It caused a psychotic break. She is given to fits of self harm. She punches herself in the crotch regularly, as she believes that is the centerpoint of all of her troubles. (That is according to her caregiver. She requires supervision now, as her former husband is now remarried, her two boys and one girl have not spoken to her in two years. She has been placed in an assisted living facility as her psychosis overcomes her regularly. Her world was self-devastated, and she cannot overcome the ongoing battle in her brain, essentially she has tried, convicted and penalized herself.)


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## Marc878

Cromer,

Before this goes any further we need pics. To see if she's worthy. Preferably in a bikini. Or not!!!!

Since I'm a finance guy I'll also need 5 years of W2's. Bank statements going back 10 years, 401k or retirement plans, etc.

I'll need this stat before you proceed any further.


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## sokillme

oldshirt said:


> I get what you are saying and you aren't entirely wrong either. Everyone has to keep some wits about them.
> 
> But playing it safe and listening to everyone else's conventional wisdom is what got him a decade of involuntary abstinence with a cheating ho.
> 
> Telling him to back off the sex now is like telling a starving man to go easy on the chocolate moose and hot fudge sundae when he finally gets to a buffet.
> 
> Yes he might get sick and puke it back up, so advising to have restraint is somewhat valid........ But who cares.
> 
> If he's willing to have a belly ache and spend some quality time in the bathroom afterwards, that's his perogative, his risk and his choice.


haha yeah I get it. >


----------



## sokillme

Taxman said:


> Personally, I have a client that lost her husband and children under similar circumstances. It caused a psychotic break. She is given to fits of self harm. She punches herself in the crotch regularly, as she believes that is the centerpoint of all of her troubles. (That is according to her caregiver. She requires supervision now, as her former husband is now remarried, her two boys and one girl have not spoken to her in two years. She has been placed in an assisted living facility as her psychosis overcomes her regularly. Her world was self-devastated, and she cannot overcome the ongoing battle in her brain, essentially she has tried, convicted and penalized herself.)


I would pay money to see the punching thing. It should be a skit on SNL. How old is this women?


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## oldshirt

Marc878 said:


> Cromer,
> 
> Before this goes any further we need pics. To see if she's worthy. Preferably in a bikini. Or not!!!!
> 
> Since I'm a finance guy I'll also need 5 years of W2's. Bank statements going back 10 years, 401k or retirement plans, etc.
> 
> I'll need this stat before you proceed any further.


Naw. As long as she can feed and clothe herself and pay her own rent and bills, then only the bikini matters. 

.......and if she's a good lover and he likes being around her and he's ok with the lights being out, then even the bikini is icing on the cake.


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## 3Xnocharm

Cromer, your kids' relationship with their mother is not your responsibility. Your intentions are admirable, but... this is all on her. You can be supportive to your kids, but respect whatever conclusions and decisions they come to about her. To be blunt, it really isnt your problem, and isnt up to you to solve. I feel bad for them, I really do. Just be there for them, dont push either way.


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## oldshirt

If someone was dealing drugs and got sent to prison, it would not be malicious or maligning or mudslinging or dragging them through the mud for their family to matter of factly and objectively state that they are not at Christmas dinner because they are in prison if someone asks. 

If they ask why they are in the prison, the answer is "he/she was dealing drugs."

That's it. It is objective fact. There is no judgement or mudslinging and there is no malice or intent to rub salt in their wounds. It is simply fact. 

The same is true here. They are divorced because she has a series of affairs that destroyed their connection and marriage. 

Simple fact. No judgement. No defamation. 

Just as the drug dealers actions landed them in jail, the adulterer's actions landed them in divorce court. 

It's just simple fact.


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## farsidejunky

3Xnocharm said:


> Cromer, your kids' relationship with their mother is not your responsibility. Your intentions are admirable, but... this is all on her. You can be supportive to your kids, but respect whatever conclusions and decisions they come to about her. To be blunt, it really isnt your problem, and isnt up to you to solve. I feel bad for them, I really do. Just be there for them, dont push either way.


This is true.

Conversely, he could further poison the well by disclosing more details than are really necessary while going down a road that will keep his mind on his X.


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## Taxman

sokillme said:


> I would pay money to see the punching thing. It should be a skit on SNL. How old is this women?


She is now in her late sixties. She had a number of affairs, and her husband found out after years of taking shytte from her. She specialized in turning him into Mr. Milquetoast. She got careless or over confident, and he discovered that their entire marriage was a lie. She had started affairs before they were married and all through the marriage. He asked their three grown children to be DNA'ed. Turned out one was not his. When he had her served, he wrote a long letter detailing everything that had been found and confirmed. He stated to her, that they will never communicate again. The letter stated that their children were informed. The letter stated that the middle child was not his, and consequently, he felt that since he paid to support someone else's child, she did not deserve a penny. (He is still the father emotionally, however, he felt she needed to pay). Normally, she would have taken part of his pension, and half their net. She walked away against advice of counsel. Once the divorce was finalized, I believe she had a breakdown, and her family has paid to institutionalize her, and provide a care giver so that her self harm does not progress. Yes she does punch herself, as she is restrained from having anything that could break the skin.


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## Chaparral

Don’t unblock her on Facebook even if it’s the off chance she does harm herself. Make yourself happy and she can take care of herself any way she wants. I think she is to in love with herself to stay down forever. She can join an hpv support group. 

I also think part of her confession was revenge. She may not be a narcissist but she definitely has the beautiful woman narcissist role down pat. I have seen it many times. She was spoiled as a child. I fully doubt her homewrecking days are over. I also believe it’s still worse than she has let on.

Talk to your daughter. Ask her what her mother told her? Tell the truth but warn her that she can’t unhear what you tell her. I’m already wondering if your wife told her the same story.


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## Cromer

Drama is still unfolding but a few things.

- XWW is completely blocked from comms with me. She's already had a couple of mutual acquaintances contact me but I politely asked that they do not talk to me about her in any way and they understood. I don't think they know the story and didn't ask. GF has not heard anything from her.

- XWW spilled ALL the beans to DD1, and DD1 probably knows more than I do now. I asked her not to talk to me about their conversation, I don't want to know, I am not comfortable with her being a conduit about this between her mother and me, and she understands. 

- XWW is thinking irrationally. DD1 asked XWW NOT to talk to the other kids about it and told her that it would be better if she did it herself. DD1 gave me the details of her talk with her siblings yesterday, nothing graphic but she let them know that their mother "made more than one mistake". They are worried more about me than her, go figure, but I'm fine. They all want to be DNA tested. DD2 and DS3 won't speak to their mother right now. I'm staying out of it. Good advice about that here, it's not my place to fix it.

Looking back at the weekend reveal, I think the details that XWW gave me are what haunted her most. Otherwise, I don't think she would've mentioned them. I have been thinking back to the time with OM1 and remember how when I got back from that short deployment, XWW was really clingy and wanting to be with me all of the time. She didn't SCUBA but I did with a couple of friends a couple of times a month (usually sunrise until noon on Saturday), and she just wanted to stay home. I remember her all-of-the sudden wanting to come with us and just sit on the beach or walk on the reef when we went out. She did this for the rest of the time we were there, and it was after the OM1 situation. She even came to my unit's Officer's Calls, spouses were always invited but she usually passed, which was at the club once a month (a different club from where she met OM1). Just wow.

As for GF and the bikini situation, she can definitely rock it. She hasn't worn one in years because she said that she thought she was too old. WRONG!! We are definitely doing a Spring Break trip somewhere on a beach, away from college mobs. She's excited!


----------



## bandit.45

Chaparral said:


> I also think part of her confession was revenge. She may not be a narcissist but she definitely has the beautiful woman narcissist role down pat. I have seen it many times. She was spoiled as a child. I fully doubt her homewrecking days are over. I also believe it’s still worse than she has let on.


I think she's also an attention junkie. She likes being the center of attention and will do anything to maintain that position. Now that she's lost her husband, and has gotten fat, she has no man to pay attention to her anymore. So now she is going to get her attention fix by playing the scandalous mother and ex-wife. Better to have her kids angry with her than just flat out ignoring her.


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## Taxman

Cromer
While I am not a very religious man, I am an accountant, and I believe in a universe that seeks balance. In your case, sir, I believe the universe is doing just that. You were robbed, thieved, lied to, betrayed and made to suffer because of an errant wife who now realizes what she threw away. The universe is now giving back what was stolen from you. I hope that you both make each other deleriously happy. I hope that her presence in your life rights the wrongs done to you. I hope your presence in her live rights the wrongs done to her. I hope that both of you have found the partner for your golden years. May you both be old, wrinkly, and sound like a bowl of Rice Krispies when you make love, and may you be exceptionally happy.


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## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> Sorry, for some reason I thought you had three girls. Do you have two daughters and a son?
> 
> She has been completely humiliated and *even her children don't trust her anymore*. I cannot imagine a worse consequence personally.


Two daughters, one son (youngest, in college).

Their mother's loss of their trust is a tragic consequence and they are really, really afraid that everything that they know about themselves is a lie. I've told them that it's not, their lives are not a lie. They are great kids and I am their father regardless of what happens, and I've told them that. I really hesitate to do DNA testing, but it's clear to me that they won't find any peace unless we go through with it. I'm really concerned about DS3, being a freshman in college is hard enough on its own.


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> Two daughters, one son (youngest, in college).
> 
> Their mother's loss of their trust is a tragic consequence and they are really, really afraid that everything that they know about themselves is a lie. I've told them that it's not, their lives are not a lie. They are great kids and I am their father regardless of what happens, and I've told them that. I really hesitate to do DNA testing, but it's clear to me that they won't find any peace unless we go through with it. I'm really concerned about DS3, being a freshman in college is hard enough on its own.


Despite what their mother was doing in the background, your children had a good childhood. There would be nothing they could point to as having been abusive or neglectful in their lives. What is true is that they grew up feeling loved and having all of their needs met. They were not mistreated, but were treated with love and respect.

The underlying problem with their mother was a personal problem their mother had, not a problem your ex had with anyone else. It's internal and she is now suffering for not having resolved it and for not being a woman of integrity. It is strange that she was able to keep it hidden and for none of you to notice that she was disordered at such a significant level, but I think this happens a lot more than people are aware. She must have thought that since no one knew, then no one would be negatively impacted by it. It was all about her and she was able to compartmentalize her double life well enough to function normally when not engaged in her nefarious activity. When she got the STD's reality suddenly swooped in and knocked her on her butt. Eventually you were unwilling to live with her solution anymore and then the truth began to trickle out.

Through all of this, your kids will need your reassurance that their mother's behavior is not going to impact how you feel about them or your relationship with them. You have always loved them and you will continue to love them no matter what. That's the mantra they need to hear from you. Saying the same comforting things over and over doesn't get old for the hearer.


----------



## wilson

Cromer said:


> I'm really concerned about DS3, being a freshman in college is hard enough on its own.


I agree that he's most likely to be at risk, but it probably depends a lot on his personality. Boys often handle this kind of stuff better (although it still might be hard) and he's surrounded by his support group to help him through. What are his spring break plans? He should probably do something fun with friends so he doesn't dwell on stuff.

Now that all the cats are fully out of the bag, I would suggest to help them go through whatever they need to find out. If they want DNA tests, then go ahead. Everything is so tumultuous right now, you might as well get through all of it rather than have their lingering doubts drag on. Everyone is supporting each other so much, it will be easier to go through any bad news now.


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## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> Despite what their mother was doing in the background, your children had a good childhood. There would be nothing they could point to as having been abusive or neglectful in their lives. What is true is that they grew up feeling loved and having all of their needs met. They were not mistreated, but were treated with love and respect.
> 
> The underlying problem with their mother was a personal problem their mother had, not a problem your ex had with anyone else. It's internal and she is now suffering for not having resolved it and for not being a woman of integrity. *It is strange that she was able to keep it hidden and for none of you to notice that she was disordered at such a significant level, but I think this happens a lot more than people are aware.* She must have thought that since no one knew, then no one would be negatively impacted by it. It was all about her and she was able to compartmentalize her double life well enough to function normally when not engaged in her nefarious activity. When she got the STD's reality suddenly swooped in and knocked her on her butt. Eventually you were unwilling to live with her solution anymore and then the truth began to trickle out.
> 
> Through all of this, your kids will need your reassurance that their mother's behavior is not going to impact how you feel about them or your relationship with them. You have always loved them and you will continue to love them no matter what. That's the mantra they need to hear from you. *Saying the same comforting things over and over doesn't get old for the hearer.*


I've been thinking how I missed it. I know that a BS is not supposed to blame themselves, but I obviously missed something. Been wracking my brain over it. Two of the three times I was gone. The first was a ONS when I was gone. The third I was gone a long time and when I got back she had so much other turmoil in her life from two tragedies close together that I thought everything re: intimacy was tied to that. The second time I was on this weird schedule and it was like being "mostly" gone for a year in so many ways. I must've been tone deaf to something for her to have this need for other men in her life. I just don't know what I could've or should've done differently. But that's a man's perspective.

If it was just the ONS decades ago, and we had a "normal" marriage from then on, I could've forgiven it if I found out 28 years later. I know people would say I'm crazy, but I'm sure that I would still be married. But even if we'd had a marriage with a high level of intimacy and all of this other came out, I would have still divorced her.

My grandmother used to say that women are a lot sneakier than men and to never underestimate the power of "feminine wiles." This is sage advice that I should remember as practical advice in any future relationship.

Believe me, my kids will always hear that they are loved by dad.


----------



## bandit.45

I wonder what the percentage of service men and women are out there who's spouses cheated while they were on deployment? 

I bet if the truth were ever revealed it would be a national scandal. 

Conversely, I wonder what percentage of married service men and women cheat while on deployment?


----------



## Cromer

bandit.45 said:


> I wonder what the percentage of service men and women are out there who's spouses cheated while they were on deployment?
> 
> I bet if the truth were ever revealed it would be a national scandal.
> 
> Conversely, I wonder what percentage of married service men and women cheat while on deployment?


It's a lot, and paternity fraud is a big problem. But never thought it would be me. I should've known better.

Cheating on deployment? It happens. 

I remember seeing condoms for sale at a PX in Iraq and was really surprised. We joked that someone must be screwing camels. General Order #1 prohibited a lot of sexual contact, especially by married personnel with those who were not their spouse. But not all sex was illegal. Getting a soldier pregnant or getting pregnant while deployed was punishable under the UCMJ as a violation of GO1, hence the condoms. People are gonna f' no matter where they are.


----------



## bandit.45

Cromer said:


> It's a lot, and paternity fraud is a big problem. But never thought it would be me. I should've known better.
> 
> Cheating on deployment? It happens.
> 
> I remember seeing condoms for sale at a PX in Iraq and was really surprised. We joked that someone must be screwing camels. General Order #1 prohibited a lot of sexual contact, especially by married personnel with those who were not their spouse. But not all sex was illegal. Getting a soldier pregnant or getting pregnant while deployed was punishable under the UCMJ as a violation of GO1, hence the condoms. People are gonna f' no matter where they are.


Off subject here but...are there prostitutes in Iraq? Or is that like instant death for a woman there?


----------



## Cromer

bandit.45 said:


> Off subject here but...are there prostitutes in Iraq? Or is that like instant death for a woman there?


Prostitution is illegal there, but at one time there were brothels in Baghdad that were geared towards the international customer. Not sure about now. Prostitution carries a life sentence. A number of women were killed in the name of virtue in recent years for prostitution. It's a mess. GO1 prohibited sexual conduct with any Third Party Nationals.


----------



## Cromer

bandit.45 said:


> Off subject here but...are there prostitutes in Iraq? Or is that like instant death for a woman there?


On a side note, there were quite a few military women who were caught prostituting themselves, mostly with contractors. There was one big case involving a Marine Sgt, she had a ring going with other female Marines. She was married with two kids.


----------



## bandit.45

Cromer said:


> Prostitution is illegal there, but at one time there were brothels in Baghdad that were geared towards the international customer. Not sure about now. Prostitution carries a life sentence. A number of women were killed in the name of virtue in recent years for prostitution. It's a mess. GO1 prohibited sexual conduct with any Third Party Nationals.


I thank you for your service and sacrificing a normal life to travel to a backwards country to protect all of us here in the states, while your idiot exWW was back here living like a college girl.


----------



## farsidejunky

Cromer said:


> It's a lot, and paternity fraud is a big problem. But never thought it would be me. I should've known better.
> 
> Cheating on deployment? It happens.
> 
> I remember seeing condoms for sale at a PX in Iraq and was really surprised. We joked that someone must be screwing camels. General Order #1 prohibited a lot of sexual contact, especially by married personnel with those who were not their spouse. But not all sex was illegal. Getting a soldier pregnant or getting pregnant while deployed was punishable under the UCMJ as a violation of GO1, hence the condoms. People are gonna f' no matter where they are.


"I will guard everything within the limits of my post, and quit my post only when properly relieved."

Or are we talking different general orders? Because I don't see a violation there.


----------



## bandit.45

Cromer said:


> On a side note, there were quite a few military women who were caught prostituting themselves, mostly with contractors. There was one big case involving a Marine Sgt, she had a ring going with other female Marines. She was married with two kids.


Sheezuz H....:surprise:

Didn't hear that one on the nightly news.


----------



## farsidejunky

If there's one thing soldiers manage to do, it's get in trouble in ways that are quite astounding.


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## Cromer

farsidejunky said:


> "I will guard everything within the limits of my post, and quit my post only when properly relieved."
> 
> Or are we talking different general orders? Because I don't see a violation there.


This is an example of what most GO1's looked like from various military units. CENTCOM had a GO1 and most units commanded by a General Officer published their own.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...order-no-1-prohibited-activities-for-soldiers


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## Cromer

bandit.45 said:


> Sheezuz H....:surprise:
> 
> Didn't hear that one on the nightly news.


No, you didn't. Things like that don't get press releases. I could write a book about what I've witnessed that would shock most people. It's a crazy world.


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## bandit.45

I have a friend who was stationed at Camp Pendleton for several years and he said cheating was common amongst the soldiers' wives. He said it was also a big deal for an enlisted man to bag an officer's wife. Along with that, he said he was friends with several married marines would swap wives on a regular basis.


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## farsidejunky

Bandit:

Cromer could probably give you a dozen or so stories of taking rank from soldiers over offenses of the UCMJ.


----------



## bandit.45

farsidejunky said:


> Bandit:
> 
> Cromer could probably give you a dozen or so stories of taking rank from soldiers over offenses of the UCMJ.


Wasn't meant as an insult to the armed services. I think whenever you have a tightknit community a lot of shenanigans go on whether military or civilian. Just sharing an anecdote from an old friend. He by the way, just retired from the Marines after 25 years. Never married.


----------



## Cromer

bandit.45 said:


> I have a friend who was stationed at Camp Pendleton for several years and he said cheating was common amongst the soldiers' wives. He said it was also a big deal for an enlisted man to bag an officer's wife. Along with that, he said he was friends with several married marines would swap wives on a regular basis.


About a year after I left one duty station, I was asked to provide a sworn statement about my boss during that time. He and his wife, unbeknownst to me, had been swinging. His wife hit on me twice, and it was the most awkward thing ever. I didn't know anything about what they were doing though.

I did one investigation into a Captain who had been swinging with his wife. It seems he broke a "rule" about seeing a woman outside of a foursome. His wife got angry and came into my office with pictures, videos, website pages, etc. about their swinging life after he deployed. She was a gorgeous Colombian brunette who also did a webcam show. Unbelievable.


----------



## farsidejunky

bandit.45 said:


> Wasn't meant as an insult to the armed services. I think whenever you have a tightknit community a lot of shenanigans go on whether military or civilian. Just sharing an anecdote from an old friend. He by the way, just retired from the Marines after 25 years. Never married.


I know you weren't, brother.

I was just illustrating a couple of points in my statement. 

1. Shenanigans are rampant.

2. Cromer held at least two (likely three) positions where he was directly responsible for issuing punishment for violations of the UCMJ. 

I figure he has some interesting stories. I know I do...lol

ETA: See??? Lolz


----------



## Cromer

farsidejunky said:


> Bandit:
> 
> Cromer could probably give you a dozen or so stories of taking rank from soldiers over offenses of the UCMJ.


Sadly more than that, I had a lot of command time.


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> *I've been thinking how I missed it. I know that a BS is not supposed to blame themselves, but I obviously missed something. * Been wracking my brain over it. Two of the three times I was gone. The first was a ONS when I was gone. The third I was gone a long time and when I got back she had so much other turmoil in her life from two tragedies close together that I thought everything re: intimacy was tied to that. The second time I was on this weird schedule and it was like being "mostly" gone for a year in so many ways. I must've been tone deaf to something for her to have this need for other men in her life. I just don't know what I could've or should've done differently. But that's a man's perspective.


You missed it because she was hiding it. You cannot read minds. She systematically and thoroughly developed a plan and implemented it to deceive you. Most betrayed spouses never know or at least they don't know the extent of it. They hide their tracks. The fact that you came home to a wife who had a bunch of obvious and verifiable tragic events taking place only strengthened her ability to deceive you. Unless you had her implanted with a chip that tracked her whereabouts, body functions, and you could listen into everything she was doing, there is no way you could know what was going on unless something happened to bring it out into the open.

You've heard of situations where women have escaped from abusers and kidnappers, etc.. They were under extreme scrutiny, but they still managed to escape. No emotionally healthy or happy person can be constantly suspicious and vigilant to make sure they aren't being cheated on. There has to be some trust in order to have healthy relationships. Everyone knows that, including cheaters, which they use to their advantage. Your ex used that to her advantage and now she has destroyed her entire family and it looks like herself as well. 

It is true that this is in no way, shape, or form your fault for not knowing. You cannot know that which is well hidden.


----------



## Malaise

Cromer said:


> Sadly more than that, I had a lot of command time.


If I may ask: what was your rank?

E-4 here.


----------



## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> It is true that this is in no way, shape, or form your fault for not knowing. You cannot know that which is well hidden.


True, I was completely trusting, no doubt about that. Never thought to be otherwise. The technology was different back then too. No fb, smartphones, etc. and she handled all of the finances. She was always transparent with the technology, e.g. her fb, smartphone, email, etc. Not that I was looking AT ALL, it's just she never seemed to try and hide anything. I used her phone, she would leave her fb or email open on my laptop, etc.

When I see things here like "my wife is guarding her phone", "my wife sleeps with her phone under her pillow", etc. there is only one reason, at least in my mind. I told the gf that I don't mean to be a psycho, but the whole "guarding the phone" thing would be a dealbreaker for me if we ever were to get serious. She feels the same way, but she's been burned too.


----------



## Cromer

Malaise said:


> If I may ask: what was your rank?
> 
> E-4 here.


O-6


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> True, I was completely trusting, no doubt about that. Never thought to be otherwise. The technology was different back then too. No fb, smartphones, etc. and she handled all of the finances. She was always transparent with the technology, e.g. her fb, smartphone, email, etc. Not that I was looking AT ALL, it's just she never seemed to try and hide anything. I used her phone, she would leave her fb or email open on my laptop, etc.
> 
> When I see things here like "my wife is guarding her phone", "my wife sleeps with her phone under her pillow", etc. there is only one reason, at least in my mind. I told the gf that I don't mean to be a psycho, but the whole "guarding the phone" thing would be a dealbreaker for me if we ever were to get serious. She feels the same way, but she's been burned too.


Hiding things from your significant other is an obvious sign that there is trouble. 

There were no signs that you could have noticed. Sure we read about people here who know something is wrong, but they can point to obvious factors that don't fit into a healthy, happy relationship. You had none of that.

ETA: Even when there were signs, there were other obvious reasons for those things to be happening. Why would you think otherwise?


----------



## Noble1

From another accounting background - its like your "wife" committed a fraud on your marriage and since deliberate fraud is actively hiding something, it is difficult to uncover.

Especially if you are not really looking for "fraud" in the first case. 

I do feel for your kids as their 'sense of history' has been shaken by all of this.

It's one reason why I am so against infidelity - the wide ranging impact it has on so many innocent parties from the actions of one/two/few people.


----------



## Cromer

Geez. XBiL wants to talk. "Really worried about XWW". He's a really good guy, long-term marriage, great kids. Ugh. It's like no more than a few minutes go by and someone else blowing up my phone. I just want to go hide in Alaska for a bit.

ETA: Told him I'd rather not, I'm not the one she needs anymore to deal with this.


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> Geez. XBiL wants to talk. "Really worried about XWW". He's a really good guy, long-term marriage, great kids. Ugh. It's like no more than a few minutes go by and someone else blowing up my phone. I just want to go hide in Alaska for a bit.


It is understandable that he is worried about her, but he also needs to understand that there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. She is the only one who can do anything to resolve her issues. She does need to ask for help, but you are not the one to help her. You are the one she hurt (and the kids), not the one who she can go to for help in resolving her pain over the consequences of her sins.

I would have a lot to say to her, from a Christian perspective, but she's not here and she's not your problem.

Furthermore, I don't think she is repentant. I think she is freaking out because her sin has found her out and she does not like where it got her. You have not said a thing that gives me the impression that she is truly sorry for the wicked things she has done. Not that I think you should take revenge or try to punish her. Only that you are not the one who should do anything to help her resolve any of this. You owe her nothing and it would not be healthy for you to re-engage with her further. Cutting off all her communication to you is the best things you could have done. Not because she deserves it, but because you deserve to be free of her.


----------



## Cynthia

Your ex-bil should understand that you further engaging in drama with her is not healthy for you or the kids. You have to be detached in order to heal from the horrible revelations she has given you. And your kids are reeling from this, unsure of who they biologically are and you have to be there for them, not for her. She made this mess. Now she has to make a choice about what kind of woman she is going to be. Is she going to continue to live as an immoral, faithless woman or is she going to repent! There is nothing you can do about her choices, but you can remove yourself from the blast zone. She would be much better helped by those who are not the target of her deceit.

Furthermore, you are in a relationship and have moved on.


----------



## GusPolinski

bandit.45 said:


> I wonder what the percentage of service men and women are out there who's spouses cheated while they were on deployment?
> 
> I bet if the truth were ever revealed it would be a national scandal.
> 
> Conversely, I wonder what percentage of married service men and women cheat while on deployment?


Probably somewhere very close to 111.11%.


----------



## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> Your ex-bil should understand that you further engaging in drama with her is not healthy for you or the kids. You have to be detached in order to heal from the horrible revelations she has given you. And your kids are reeling from this, unsure of who they biologically are and you have to be there for them, not for her. She made this mess. Now she has to make a choice about what kind of woman she is going to be. Is she going to continue to live as an immoral, faithless woman or is she going to repent! There is nothing you can do about her choices, but you can remove yourself from the blast zone. She would be much better helped by those who are not the target of her deceit.
> 
> Furthermore, you are in a relationship and have moved on.


Divorce is unknown on her side of the family, and I don't think he or anyone else understand that I am no longer responsible for her in any way. They see that we were together for so long and were a fixture, they haven't been through anything like what I've been through afaik, there are no divorces that I know of anywhere in her extended family (some widows/widowers) and they just don't get it. Obviously, I must still have feelings for her, right? Wrong. 

The best thing she can do is focus on healing herself, getting into the gym, lose the weight, move out of her mother's house, forget about me and start banging guys. I'm sure being with her mother is not helping and prolonging the angst. Not my monkeys!


----------



## sokillme

CynthiaDe said:


> It is understandable that he is worried about her, but he also needs to understand that there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. She is the only one who can do anything to resolve her issues. She does need to ask for help, but you are not the one to help her. You are the one she hurt (and the kids), not the one who she can go to for help in resolving her pain over the consequences of her sins.
> 
> I would have a lot to say to her, from a Christian perspective, but she's not here and she's not your problem.
> 
> Furthermore, I don't think she is repentant. I think she is freaking out because her sin has found her out and she does not like where it got her. You have not said a thing that gives me the impression that she is truly sorry for the wicked things she has done. Not that I think you should take revenge or try to punish her. Only that you are not the one who should do anything to help her resolve any of this. You owe her nothing and it would not be healthy for you to re-engage with her further. Cutting off all her communication to you is the best things you could have done. Not because she deserves it, but because you deserve to be free of her.


Damn I hate being right all the time but I called it. She is no where near done. Also she is going to continue to contact your GF, I promise you.

I completely agree, if she was really repentant she would be feeling guilty for the pain she caused you her kids, shame for her immoral choices. That's not what this is. What this is is, OH **** I don't like my consequences please everyone help me to avoid them. 

@Cromer all you have to say is, unfortunate it came to my attention that my wife never had the intention of being monogamous in our marriage. That is unacceptable to me so I have decided to move on. We will both have to live with the consequences.


----------



## Cromer

If it weren't for you guys I'd be going nuts right now. Don't want to drag the GF anymore into this and drive her away, don't want the kids involved any more than they are, and by bro friend is there to listen but has a life of his own. It's therapeutic to post here. Right now I have a command post going LOL. Phone, three computer screens with TAM, fb and email up, and the XBox on with a conversation going with my "old timers" gamer group, all retired guys. Gaming is something I've started doing lately, and it is a social circle all of its own. Lots of screwed over guys out there and it's fun to bash our cheating ex's while playing The Division LOL.

Thank you.


----------



## As'laDain

bandit.45 said:


> I wonder what the percentage of service men and women are out there who's spouses cheated while they were on deployment?
> 
> I bet if the truth were ever revealed it would be a national scandal.
> 
> Conversely, I wonder what percentage of married service men and women cheat while on deployment?


its a lot more than is ever ****ing talked about, i can tell you that!

i have had to deal with it so many damned times its not even funny... i cant tell you how many soldiers i have referred to this JAG, this website, etc, when they find out that their spouses either had or are cheating on them. 

i even told our military family life counselor to send anyone dealing with infidelity my way, since that is one topic they never cover in any of our training. i asked her why nobody talks about it and she didnt have a clue. the closest they come to is the family building stuff, marriage retreats. think about how ludicrous that is... when a soldier goes to a chaplain and tells them that they are being cheated on, about the only official resource they can point them to besides a counselor is a marriage retreat. like that's going to do any good...

when i was in the 82nd, i found out about a soldier whos wife was started cheating on him while he was deployed. she was cheating with a married staff sergeant from a different unit. i brought him to everyone. first sergeants response was "your in the infantry. it happens to everyone. go talk to the chaplain." the chaplains response was "do you want to go to a marriage retreat? there is one coming up in three months.."

it was so pathetic that i ended up becoming the unofficial "infidelity counselor". i say unofficial because there is no such position. i stay in contact with the master resiliency trainer, the chaplains assistants, and the military family life counselors. whenever they have someone who is going through infidelity, i have them send them my way. because there really isnt much in place for them. they often end up losing their minds to the point they get command directed to behavioral health before anyone starts taking their grief seriously. by then, they usually already have a tarnished record, or at least, a tarnished reputation. 


i just recently took over an E-7 position, and hopefully i will be able to get the master resilience trainer position soon(when it becomes vacant), so i might be able to officially send them more resources, but i kinda doubt it.

it seems to vary with the unit. in one unit i was in, we had a 3 year divorce rate of over 90 percent. out of everyone who had been in that particular company for three years, only one of them had a wife who hadn't cheated on them. my wife had a single drunken one night stand with the neighbor. my case was one of the most mild ones. on the other end of the spectrum, we had a squad leader who was banging the wife of one of his privates, and rubbing it in his face. 

that was an airborne infantry unit. oddly enough, the special forces community seems to have a lower infidelity rate, from what i have seen. even though they have a joke that if you have been doing the job for five years and are on your first marriage, you aren't working hard enough. 

infidelity is the dark secret the military doesn't like talking about. they really should, because i have seen it have a huge impact on soldiers and unit readiness.


----------



## wilson

Cromer said:


> Divorce is unknown on her side of the family, and I don't think he or anyone else understand that I am no longer responsible for her in any way.


The sooner they understand that you're not coming back, the sooner she can move on. Right now, they are probably hoping you can patch things up and they may even be telling her that to help her feel better. No doubt they are concerned for her and are trying to help her in any way they can. Once they realize the marriage is over and there is no possibility of reconciliation, they will move onto other solutions. It will take time for them to come to that conclusion, so expect continued contact for sometime, and some of it might be quite imploring and impassioned. Keep being firm and eventually they will get the message.


----------



## Cromer

As'laDain said:


> its a lot more than is ever ****ing talked about, i can tell you that!
> 
> infidelity is the dark secret the military doesn't like talking about. they really should, because i have seen it have a huge impact on soldiers and unit readiness.


Nail on the head. It's tragic. I've seen so many good men get into a dark place and have their young lives ruined because of a cheating ho wife. God Bless what you are doing.


----------



## Taxman

Cromer, she is no longer your problem. Make that clear to her family. Re-iterate that she had affairs which ended the marriage and negated any feelings you may have for her. She has dug her own grave with the despicable manner in which she treated you. Now, everyone in her family knows her to be a cheater, and, frankly, not. that. bright. The last ten years of your marriage was a testament to being not. that. bright. So, she gets to rerun every time you wanted intimacy and she turned you down. She gets to rerun her lover dumping her for a woman his age, and her deciding to be faithful to someone who wasn't there, again, not. that. bright. 

She has lost you. She has now lost her children. Her family thinks she is an idiot. God knows what any friends may think. Of course her BIL thinks she is suicidal. Would anyone who flushed their entire lives down the toilet for a few f*cks with someone who was guaranteed not to be around, not be suicidal, and knowing that she did this all to herself. Yeah, it's called facepalm city. She is now alone, lonely and fat. Looks damn good on her. She deserves everything that is happening to her. You cannot be her KISA anymore. She needs not to be saved.


----------



## sokillme

As'laDain said:


> i asked her why nobody talks about it and she didnt have a clue.


I suspect no one talks about it because it would hurt recruitment and morale. Risk your life sure, have the love or your life ****ing some guy while you are risking your life, HELL NO. If you told every recruit that signing up means an 85% chance of his wife cheating on him love of country or not that is just bridge too far for a whole lot of them. The service is in the business of getting recruits first.

By the way it's not like this doesn't happen to a whole hell of a lot of people who are not in the services as we know. And those folks are not separated for long stretches of time or under the threat of death all the time.


----------



## As'laDain

sokillme said:


> Nobody talks about it because it would hurt recruitment and morale. Risk your life sure, have the love or your life ****ing some guy while you are risking your life, HELL NO. If you told every recruit that signing up means an 85% chance of his wife cheating on him love or country or not that is just bridge too far for a whole lot of them. The service is in the business of getting recruits first.


to be fair, i have seen a lot of soldiers cheat on their wives too. 

one soldier used to joke about TDY meaning "temporarily divorced"...


----------



## sokillme

As'laDain said:


> to be fair, i have seen a lot of soldiers cheat on their wives too.
> 
> one soldier used to joke about TDY meaning "temporarily divorced"...


Yeah it's not a lifestyle that leads to successful marriage for most. But that is just another sacrifice. Thanks for your service by the way.


----------



## Cromer

Taxman said:


> Cromer, she is no longer your problem. Make that clear to her family. Re-iterate that she had affairs which ended the marriage and negated any feelings you may have for her.


She was triggered by news of the GF, no doubt. It was calm mostly before that, believe it or not.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> She was triggered by news of the GF, no doubt. It was calm mostly before that, believe it or not.


That's because that is when it got real. You were not coming back. 

Do you know why your daughter wants the DNA test? Is it because of what we said, she has no credibility or did she tell her stuff you don't know?


----------



## Cromer

As'laDain said:


> to be fair, i have seen a lot of soldiers cheat on their wives too.
> 
> one soldier used to joke about TDY meaning "temporarily divorced"...


Probably the saddest case I saw in recent years was of a Sgt (E-5) who was my driver. He had a gorgeous wife and I know how much he loved and adored her. We spent a lot of hours and thousands of road miles together, and she was always a topic of conversation. We even had them over for dinner before we deployed as a thank-you for her support. She was in college, he was paying her way through, and when his enlistment was up, he was going to go to college on his Post 9/11 GI bill while she worked.

Well, about halfway through our deployment, my Sgt's demeanor changed. Contact with his wife dropped off considerably from her end, she didn't have time to talk when he called, didn't return emails, etc. Also, care packages from her stopped. We had arranged for his mid-deployment leave to coincide with her graduation, but a couple of weeks before he was supposed to go he got an email from her saying that she didn't want him there. Long story short, she started banging this college dude a couple of months after he left, now she was in love with OM, and wanted a divorce. She put all of his stuff in storage, got a restraining order because she "feared for her safety due to his PTSD" (total BS), and OM moved into their apartment (off base). Of course, he could do nothing while deployed. He had paid for her entire college, then left him for OM weeks before she graduated. We had to put him in the barracks when we got back because he had no place to live. For almost a year, he had to pay her rent (BAQ) plus 25% of his income for support with OM living with her.

We're still in touch. He's now an E-8, certain to be an E-9, remarried and has a little girl and boy. But what a humiliating travesty he had to endure. When someone is deployed, their spouse can do anything and get away with it, especially if a Power of Attorney is involved.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> That's because that is when it got real. You were not coming back.
> 
> Do you know why your daughter wants the DNA test? Is it because of what we said, she has no credibility or did she tell her stuff you don't know?


My daughter just doesn't believe anything her mother is saying. That simple.


----------



## As'laDain

Cromer said:


> When someone is deployed, their spouse can do anything and get away with it, especially if a Power of Attorney is involved.


that reminds me of an argument i got into with my sergeant major recently. i was having a conversation with one of our guys, telling him that i didn't do power of attorney this year and may not ever do power of attorney again. 

sergeant major started telling me that i really need to do power of attorney! what if my wife's car gets totaled, the house burns down, how is she going to get money, etc. 

i asked him when the last time he was unable to do electronic banking because of where he was. he thought about it... five years ago. i then asked him when was the last time he was unable to be contacted by his wife directly within 48 hours. again, about five years ago. 

in the end, he had to agree with me that power of attorney is not nearly as necessary as it used to be. connectivity is everywhere.

even when i was in the middle of nowhere in somalia or kenya or wherever, i still had ways to connect home.


----------



## Taxman

Due to her actions, she has forever changed the dynamic between herself and her children. I have encountered this more often than I'd like. Essentially when an affair is exposed, the adult children (this is only in the case of older marrieds with teen and adult children) tend to protect the betrayed parent. They tend to distance themselves from the wayward parent. It sets up a wall between the kids and the wayward parent, and that wall takes years to breach, if ever. Right now, you have children, and she does not. That is another knife that she stuck in herself. By the end of this, she may not have many people around her. I have one lady, whose husband was messing about with a coworker. The kids ghosted him. His XBW tried to get her children to forgive their father and have a relationship with him. He tried everything in his power, but they were unwilling to forgive his treatment of their mother. To my knowledge, it has been five years, and he is dead to his children.


----------



## TAMAT

Cromer,

As much as your WW cheated on you, she even more cheated on her children, and possibly is even a traitor to her country for cheating on a soldier. 

This is why a soldier can be prosecuted for an affair under the UCMJ it's understood that what it does to morale is worse then most other offenses and even exposes a soldier to blackmail and influence. 

The other men involved knew she had kids and went ahead anyway so to my mind they are guilty of a form of child abuse. 

Tamat


----------



## TAMAT

Cromer

And the "trainer" was willing to put your WWs life at risk by having unprotected sex with her, which could have given both of your some form of HPV related cancer.

Tamat


----------



## oldshirt

Prosecuting adultery in the military would be like trying to issue speeding tickets at the Indy 500.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> My daughter just doesn't believe anything her mother is saying. That simple.


She is wise.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> Probably the saddest case I saw in recent years was of a Sgt (E-5) who was my driver. He had a gorgeous wife and I know how much he loved and adored her. We spent a lot of hours and thousands of road miles together, and she was always a topic of conversation. We even had them over for dinner before we deployed as a thank-you for her support. She was in college, he was paying her way through, and when his enlistment was up, he was going to go to college on his Post 9/11 GI bill while she worked.
> 
> Well, about halfway through our deployment, my Sgt's demeanor changed. Contact with his wife dropped off considerably from her end, she didn't have time to talk when he called, didn't return emails, etc. Also, care packages from her stopped. We had arranged for his mid-deployment leave to coincide with her graduation, but a couple of weeks before he was supposed to go he got an email from her saying that she didn't want him there. Long story short, she started banging this college dude a couple of months after he left, now she was in love with OM, and wanted a divorce. She put all of his stuff in storage, got a restraining order because she "feared for her safety due to his PTSD" (total BS), and OM moved into their apartment (off base). Of course, he could do nothing while deployed. He had paid for her entire college, then left him for OM weeks before she graduated. We had to put him in the barracks when we got back because he had no place to live. For almost a year, he had to pay her rent (BAQ) plus 25% of his income for support with OM living with her.
> 
> We're still in touch. He's now an E-8, certain to be an E-9, remarried and has a little girl and boy. But what a humiliating travesty he had to endure. When someone is deployed, their spouse can do anything and get away with it, especially if a Power of Attorney is involved.


We have to change the laws so you can sue in a situation like this, at least get your money back for fraud or something. Thing is in the long run he is better off, I can understand falling love when you are away SO long, it's not nice but it does happen, but to steal from him as well. What kind of a person do you have to be to do something like that.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> We have to change the laws so you can sue in a situation like this, at least get your money back for fraud or something. Thing is in the long run he is better off, I can understand falling love when you are away SO long, it's not nice but it does happen, but to steal from him as well. What kind of a person do you have to be to do something like that.


Like that Wendy Davis chick in Texas. As soon as XH of 18 years wrote the last tuition check to Harvard, she ghosted him and her two daughters. Never understood why she was such a "hero", this story always bothered me as a cautionary tale about character. The way the media airbrushed it all was scandalous.

_But it requires a pretty calculating coldness to omit from her story husband number two, Jeff Davis, the lawyer she married when she was 24 and lived with for 18 years. It was he who paid her tuition at TCU and Harvard Law, cashing out his 401(k) and borrowing money to do it. It was he who cared for her two daughters while she went to Boston to study law for three years. And it was he who got custody (with no contest) after the divorce. He notes ruefully that she left the marriage at a key juncture: “It was ironic,” Davis told the Dallas Morning News, “I made the last [Harvard] payment, and it was the next day she left.”_

https://www.nationalreview.com/2014/01/lessons-wendy-daviss-success-story-mona-charen/


----------



## Cromer

Taxman said:


> *Due to her actions, she has forever changed the dynamic between herself and her children.* I have encountered this more often than I'd like. Essentially when an affair is exposed, the adult children (this is only in the case of older marrieds with teen and adult children) tend to protect the betrayed parent. They tend to distance themselves from the wayward parent. It sets up a wall between the kids and the wayward parent, and that wall takes years to breach, if ever. Right now, you have children, and she does not. That is another knife that she stuck in herself. By the end of this, she may not have many people around her. I have one lady, whose husband was messing about with a coworker. The kids ghosted him. His XBW tried to get her children to forgive their father and have a relationship with him. He tried everything in his power, but they were unwilling to forgive his treatment of their mother. To my knowledge, it has been five years, and he is dead to his children.


It's pretty bad right now. She has a lot of mending to do, and right now she is in no shape to begin the process.


----------



## Dyokemm

3Xnocharm said:


> Omg. What a sickening, selfish, sh!tty person to further destroy another person just to make herself feel better. I know some folks support her coming clean with everything, but I dont. Her guilt is her punishment for what she did, and she should have learned to heal and move on without dumping this crap on the person she betrayed. He was already so hurt as it was.
> 
> I cheated in my first marriage, and my ex never found out. I thought about telling him many, many times over the years. Its a damn hard thing to have to live with, but I couldnt bring myself to dump something so hurtful on him like that just so I didnt have to carry that guilt anymore. To me that would have been a terrible, selfish thing to do , it would have only been to make myself feel better. He died not knowing. I dont have to worry any more about him finding out, but its still there, I know I did it. It has and will keep me from ever doing it again.


I understand your reasoning.....and maybe in your case not confessing was right.

In other cases though, a confession years later can actually help bring peace to a BS.

I have a cousin who was left by his W......all he knew at the time was that she had become angry constantly with him, very cold towards him, and always telling him she was very unhappy.....eventually she filed for D and refused to reconsider.

He spent years blaming himself......trying to figure out what he had done wrong and what he could have done differently.....

Literally tortured himself thinking he was horrible and the cause of their D.

Several years later, his exW ended up recommitting herself to her church and faith......she also was doing IC.

One day she came to see my cousin.....

She confessed to an A during the last year of their M......told him that he had done nothing wrong, but rather had been a great H......the problems had all been her.....she had been completely selfish and cruel, and had blamed it all on him to protect her own self-image.

Now....she may have confessed in part for herself....

But I know that after the initial shock (and some anger) wore off for my cousin, her confession did him good as well.

He was finally able to stop blaming himself for the D.....realized he had been a good H doing everything he believed was right.....

In a sense it freed HIM from the past and all the self-doubt and criticism that came with it.....

IMO a BS who is in the dark about a past A usually knows that something went wrong in the M....they just do not know what....

And often they end up shouldering the majority of the fault and blame for the D or the marital disconnect on themselves....

IMO it is cruelty for a WS who knows what the issue REALLY was to allow the BS to flounder in doubt like this......and all the talk about ‘sparing’ the BS the pain is simply a smoke screen to maintain their reputation in many cases.


----------



## Taxman

Cromer said:


> It's pretty bad right now. She has a lot of mending to do, and right now she is in no shape to begin the process.


Cromer, just a word of advice. Stay out of this. It is between your XWW and your children. Be there for them but do not advocate on behalf of your XWW. I know that you are a good man, probably one of the best. Your first instinct is to defend and protect. You are ex military, it is in your nature. This is a battle she has to fight alone, and if she is defeated, then she is defeated. Your precious young adults know what was done to you, they know that she cheated and betrayed you. Yes she is their mother, however, they are not compelled to like or forgive her actions. Especially when it comes to you. They see that a crime was committed, and that their father is the victim. The perpetrator of this was their mother. Now they have to reconcile the image of motherhood, with the woman who did this to you. That is their cross to bear, my friend.

You are under only one obligation, to take care of you. Enjoy your life, you have earned it.


----------



## Chuck71

Cromer..... I'm still about ten pages behind but I am up to 2018. I don't want to rehash on what she did, the 

same way others have (up to where I am at). I live in the country.... I see stray dogs and cats all the time. I

have more respect for them, than your XW. Here is why.... when a spouse cheats, they run the risk of 

getting caught. They run the risk of getting an STD, and some STDs... don't go away. Spouses who cheat

hardly ever use protection. But she risked the M and... turning upside down the lives of her three children.

For the sake of argument, she was caught, or she chose POSOM over you... the lives of your two girls and 

one son would have been turned every-which-way. And guessing their ages... they were all between ?3-8?

Mutilating four lives.... for an "itch." That is why I do not have any respect for cheaters, male or female. 

Would your children have grown up then, as they have? Every parent wants their children to have a 

stress free childhood and go after their dreams when becoming an adult. Sadly.... in a D, the kids are VERY

often used as pawns between the spouses. Your three children avoided this.... so many do not.

As for protecting your wife, not being PC..... TAM doesn't have a middle finger icon or I'd use it right now.

There's a lot to be said about traditional values.... I am a firm believer in them. All this crap about feminists 

and liberals and GOPs.... blah blah blah.... it's just crap to fill the airwaves and get "clicks." Not my thing.

We're close in age, I'll be 46 this summer. I don't know about you but I'm too old to give a damn what 

others think. I'll use a term I bet you recall..... Today many people call me a "square john." I have yet to 

own a smartphone and every time I start considering one... a new reason comes up not to. I also hate

debit cards. But try to find an employer today who does not do direct deposit. I don't like the government

knowing my every move. If you always use debit, smartphone, GPS... well... they do. 15 years ago... I 

made a remark about the RFID chip in pets. Give it two-three generations and.... humans will have them

at birth. Ah hell Chuck... yous crazy! Am I? Just like these phones people pay $50-100 month for....

we didn't have them not too long ago. "We" just need to be convinced by "them" that "we" need them (RFID)

The world is changing quite rapidly. Like I told Bandit on a thread several years back, as late as WW1, the 

farmers could have easily "taken over the world." Just a century ago.

I am so very sorry about your mom. I can't imagine, I'm an author and I still couldn't. I lost my mom right 

before Christmas 2016. I miss her every day.... every time I hear a guy saying they never had a mother or, 

one like yours... I consider myself truly blessed. The two most important and influential women in your life..

let you down. But you're still here....swinging. I've bored you long enough, now to catch up on your thread...


----------



## bandit.45

My god.....


I see now why the ancient Romans never allowed married men to serve in the legion, and soldiers were banned from marrying until their twenty years of service was up. The Romans were way more hip to the realities of military life than we are.


----------



## Chuck71

Cromer said:


> I hope I get this all straight LOL. Last night the woman I've been intimate with for the past two months and I had a very short conversation when I was falling asleep after taking an Ambien. We had just finished a "Hallmark & Chill" evening (explanation later LOL) and I was half out of it. It was something like this:
> 
> Her: "What do you think of things?"
> Me: "What things?"
> Her: "Us things silly man"
> Me: "You make me very happy"
> Her: "You make me very happy too"
> 
> That's what I remember from last night. But this morning, *I didn't remember it right away* as I was in that after-Ambien morning fog. And I probably would've said it differently if I hadn't been half out of it. So at breakfast, she kissed me and said: "I am very happy that I make you happy". I wasn't sure where that came from until later when I remembered the conversation from the night before. So not remembering it, I said something like:
> 
> "I am very happy, and it's because of you. Things have moved fast since the divorce, a lot faster than I expected. But for now, I just want to enjoy being happy in the moment with you."
> 
> She looked at me and burst into tears, I mean waterworks. I asked what's wrong, "nothing". I ask again, "I'm fine". Then she grabs her keys, says "I can't take this" and heads out the door. She left her purse and phone. I didn't try to stop her and I was worried sick for hours. She never, and I mean NEVER, goes in public without being put together. She is the most meticulous woman when it comes to her look, from nails to hair, that I've seen.
> 
> A couple of hours ago I got a text from a mutual friend. She told me that "Claire" (that's what I will call her) was there and asked if we could talk but was afraid to call me herself. Our friend told me that Claire was really upset but was sorry for leaving and wanted to know if it was it all right if she came back over tomorrow (she's staying at friend's tonight). I said, of course, she could come back tonight if she wanted, that I was worried, and definitely wanted to talk to her.
> 
> It's my fault. She practically lives here. She has colonized one of the sinks in the master bath, has 6 different kinds of soap in the shower for different parts of the body (it's a big, multi-head setup and it is totally feminized now LOL), in a spare bedroom she has filled a closet+ with clothes and shoes and set up a make-up table/mirror/light with all kinds of various and sundry items I have no clue about. I have dinner ready when she comes here after work (which for the past few weeks is every day), cook breakfast for her when she's getting all dolled up for work, helps me with the kitchen, she vacuums and does the laundry because I suck at it. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love having her here and enjoy her company immensely. But it has happened fast and I'm not sure how I feel about it.
> 
> I swear it feels like High School.


----------



## Chuck71

bandit.45 said:


> She's husband hunting my friend. Any woman who moves in that quick is desperate to get a ring on her finger. She'll bang you like a gun and give you all the hot monkey sex you want for now, but in the end she might turn out just like your ex-wife once you marry her.
> 
> SLOW THE FECK DOWN....


See.... I'm catching up LOL. Cromer... this should scare the F out of you. Way too fast.

After my D, I dated UG. I said the same thing you did, bring some stuff over. LOL She should've

rented a U-Haul. We talked, she slowed it way down.... but was still husband hunting.

"Let's see how it goes, I have a two year wait with anyone." Eventually... she moved in.

Granted.... it took about a year of living together to see the bandages drop. One by two by eight...

I use the term "bandaged people" for a reason. They wrap themselves up really damn tight

and hide all dem red flags.... give you great sex in every room and corner of the property.

-What's your wild fetish... let's do it- Pop warned me about this.... some 20 years earlier.

Eventually.... her true colors showed.... and out I kicked her. Course she wanted to work things out 

but thought all she had to do was "show up." Didn't work.... bye-bye.

She started with the M talk about four months in, I LMFAO. Even told my mom, mom almost

had Coke coming out her nose. Near the end, I told her it is wise to use a pastor or MC a year

before the wedding. I'd like to utilize that... she balked, but I knew she would.

I don't think I wasted roughly almost two years of my life, we had some kick ass times....

I reflected upon my mistakes in my M, and eradicated them. I think it was a better fit for me then,

than being alone. After the split.... then I spent over a year, being alone. And I LOVED it!!!!!

I had a near miss from 2016 and from 2017. The 2017 is still around so... see where it goes.

As FSJ noted, the poo tests... I've had three with FQ.... passed every one. Actually saw them coming.

I'm sure later developments have occurred since you posted the spin-out. 

Hope things work out however you desire them to be.....


----------



## eric1

Cromer isn’t an idiot. I’m sure he’s thought through all of that.

And who knows, maybe she just really likes him. Weirder things have happened


----------



## Cromer

bandit.45 said:


> My god.....
> 
> 
> I see now why the ancient Romans never allowed married men to serve in the legion, and soldiers were banned from marrying until their twenty years of service was up. The Romans were way more hip to the realities of military life than we are.


In the 1990's, the Marine Corps wanted to stop accepting married recruits and put a clause in first term enlistment contracts stipulating no marriage during the first enlistment. I thought it was a great idea. The womenfolk in Congress went NUTS. Needless to say, it was a short-lived policy.


----------



## Cynthia

eric1 said:


> Cromer isn’t an idiot. I’m sure he’s thought through all of that.
> 
> And who knows, maybe she just really likes him. Weirder things have happened


She could also be thinking similar things. Lots of women have high sex drives and are looking for a match in that area as well as a man who is not into drama. I've known plenty of men who are high drama.


----------



## sokillme

CynthiaDe said:


> She could also be thinking similar things. Lots of women have high sex drives and are looking for a match in that area as well as a man who is not into drama. I've known plenty of men who are high drama.


I am not so much worried about him as I am her. Considering all that is going on I doubt he could have a real good handle on what he is feeling. Which is why taking it slow is good for both of them.


----------



## lilianagrace

That sounds totally crazy Cromer. A grown woman wouldn't have someone call on her behalf and apologize for her behavior and to ask if she can come over. Doesn't even sound like high school. I agree with the husband hunting thing. 

Yikes.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Cromer

lilianagrace said:


> That sounds totally crazy Cromer. A grown woman wouldn't have someone call on her behalf and apologize for her behavior and to ask if she can come over. Doesn't even sound like high school. I agree with the husband hunting thing.
> 
> Yikes.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


We talked about it for hours. Basically, she hadn't dated for 2 years, wasn't looking to, and wasn't expecting to get swept up into anything emotional. It scared her. She has some self-esteem issues because of what's happened to her in past relationships as well. She knows I have no intention of getting married again and she swears she's not looking for a husband. We agreed just to take things as they come and have fun together.


----------



## Cromer

TAMAT said:


> Cromer
> 
> And the "trainer" was willing to put your WWs life at risk by having unprotected sex with her, which could have given both of your some form of HPV related cancer.
> 
> Tamat


No shat! I posted this in the sex forum but damn I should be grateful: *Oral sex is causing an oral cancer epidemic in men by outwitting natural defenses* Oral sex: HPV is causing an oral cancer epidemic in men | The Sacramento Bee

"_*Men are four times more likely than women to be diagnosed with oral cancer, a hard-to-detect, hard-to-treat disease that has overtaken cervical cancer as the most common HPV-related malignancy in the United States.*_"

ETA: At least my cheating ho skank XWW did something noble, even if it were for ignoble reasons. Talk about dodging a bullet. For some reason, using "cheating ho skank XWW" in a sentence is therapeutic.


----------



## sokillme

So any news on the kids front? Are you doing the tests?


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> So any news on the kids front? Are you doing the tests?


The tests are happening. I've ordered the kits. I know this is going to sound really strange, but we are going to have a DNA swab family event the weekend that Spring Break starts. The kids are coming over, we're gonna roast a pig and socialize at the fire pit. Family and a few best friends are invited. It's gonna be a party! It was the kid's idea (e.g. DD1 but all are on board) so I figured why the heck not. We're trying to avoid therapy so figured let's own this so it doesn't own us. Then GF and I are going on our trip for 5 days. Can't wait!


----------



## bandit.45

Have you bought that sex swing yet?


I’m tellin ya man....


----------



## Cromer

bandit.45 said:


> Have you bought that sex swing yet?
> 
> 
> I’m tellin ya man....


I need to put that as #16 on her list!


----------



## GusPolinski

Cromer said:


> At least my cheating ho skank XWW did something noble, even if it were for ignoble reasons. Talk about dodging a bullet. For some reason, using "cheating ho skank XWW" in a sentence is therapeutic.


Sounds like you’re in need of a go-to acronym, along with an entry in the Urban Dictionary.

*cough* @arbitrator


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> The tests are happening. I've ordered the kits. I know this is going to sound really strange, but we are going to have a DNA swab family event the weekend that Spring Break starts. The kids are coming over, we're gonna roast a pig and socialize at the fire pit. Family and a few best friends are invited. It's gonna be a party! It was the kid's idea (e.g. DD1 but all are on board) so I figured why the heck not. We're trying to avoid therapy so figured let's own this so it doesn't own us. Then GF and I are going on our trip for 5 days. Can't wait!


Fight crazy with crazy! 

This is a great idea. You are all coming together to deal with this situation as a family, so you can have each other's backs. I'm glad you aren't going to let this own you.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> The tests are happening. I've ordered the kits. I know this is going to sound really strange, but we are going to have a DNA swab family event the weekend that Spring Break starts. The kids are coming over, we're gonna roast a pig and socialize at the fire pit. Family and a few best friends are invited. It's gonna be a party! It was the kid's idea (e.g. DD1 but all are on board) so I figured why the heck not. We're trying to avoid therapy so figured let's own this so it doesn't own us. Then GF and I are going on our trip for 5 days. Can't wait!


Does your ex know?


----------



## arbitrator

GusPolinski said:


> Sounds like you’re in need of a go-to acronym, along with an entry in the Urban Dictionary.
> 
> *cough* @arbitrator


*And now everybody knows exactly what a "RSXW" is! 

Even UrbanDictionary!

Thanks, Gus!*


----------



## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> Fight crazy with crazy!
> 
> This is a great idea. You are all coming together to deal with this situation as a family, so you can have each other's backs. I'm glad you aren't going to let this own you.


It's definitely crazy but hey, I didn't start it. My only concern is if there is a "mismatch" that the affected kid will want to find their bio father. I don't even want to think about that scenario. But, not much I can do about it so pig roast it is! DD1 is such great entertainment after one beer, it's gonna be a hoot.

I forgot to mention, if the weather is good we are going to do it as a campout. GF has NEVER slept in a tent before and I am an avid outdoors type and love primitive camping. The weather's been beautiful so hopefully, it will cooperate. My kids are pros at it.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> Does your ex know?


I have no idea.


----------



## Cromer

arbitrator said:


> *And now everybody knows exactly what a "RSXW" is!
> 
> Even UrbanDictionary!
> 
> Thanks, Gus!*


Hmmmm... CHSXW. Has a ring to it!


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> It's definitely crazy but hey, I didn't start it. My only concern is if there is a "mismatch" that the affected kid will want to find their bio father. I don't even want to think about that scenario. But, not much I can do about it so pig roast it is! DD1 is such great entertainment after one beer, it's gonna be a hoot.


Cross that bridge if you come to it. It likely won't be an issue. However, if it turns out to be a problem, you will handle it with the same Strength, love, and grace you have handled all the rest of this with.


----------



## Cromer

@CynthiaDe I was thinking about this yesterday. For my adult life, I have always put someone or something at the center of my world, and never, honestly, thought about me that much. It's not so much that I am a people pleaser, I have left plenty of pissed off folks in the wake of my life, but I've always put service first. If I were to do a circle graph, and start from the center with the most important and work towards the edge, it would be military/provide for family, wife, kids, church, volunteer work, then somewhere you'd find me at the edge. The military first wasn't by choice necessarily, but I was determined to be the provider that my family never really had, and if you have a military career then the military comes first. I had always intended for my wife to take center stage when I retired, but by then I had grown so bitter. I always thought that an early retirement would finally mean that we would be able to have a life together where we could do what we wanted when we wanted and screw The Man. I thought we'd get our closeness back. Today I shiver to think that I could still be married to that woman.

Right now, I am at a loss. The kids are grown with their own lives, the wife is gone, no career, and I have no idea what's next. It's a really strange place to be, and one that I'm not sure how to handle. Don't get me wrong, I am thankful for what I have. What I really need to do is go back to work somewhere, but after being out of the workforce for two years as a 53-year-old man it would be hard.

I guess I'm just venting a bit. But things have changed so quickly, and for the first time, I don't know what's next. It's unsettling.


----------



## arbitrator

Cromer said:


> Hmmmm... CHSXW. Has a ring to it!


*So what exactly does the acronym CHSXW stand for?*


----------



## Silverbird

It's not like you can coerce her into sex. That's what happened to me. Husband left me for a younger woman. In the end you have to realise, is it worth staying with someone with differing priorities? She obviously doesn't care about sex at all and I realise that it is important to men, unfortunately, moreso than it should be. She loves you and I don't doubt that you do in your own way but for her sake, don't 'end it' per say but just be honest!! Just tell her about this instead of tiptoeing around plotting to leave without her even knowing.


----------



## Cromer

arbitrator said:


> *So what exactly does the acronym CHSXW stand for?*


Cheating Ho Skank X Wife (CHSXW)


----------



## Cynthia

arbitrator said:


> *So what exactly does the acronym CHSXW stand for?*






Cromer said:


> ETA: At least my *cheating ho skank XWW* did something noble, even if it were for ignoble reasons. Talk about dodging a bullet. For some reason, using "cheating ho skank XWW" in a sentence is therapeutic.



@Silverbird as you are new to forums, you will find that reading to the end of the thread will help you get a better picture of what's going on. Cromer has divorced his CHSXWW and has moved on. The last couple of weeks have been quite enlightening compared to the information he had when he first started this thread.


----------



## Cynthia

If you want to work, you could start a business. Is there anything you've always wanted to do?
Or put together a resume, open a LinkedIn account, and start networking. If you want to work, go for it. I'm 53 and I figure I've got a lot of years left. Same should be true for you. Live your life to the fullest. 



Cromer said:


> @CynthiaDe I was thinking about this yesterday. For my adult life, I have always put someone or something at the center of my world, and never, honestly, thought about me that much. It's not so much that I am a people pleaser, I have left plenty of pissed off folks in the wake of my life, but I've always put service first. If I were to do a circle graph, and start from the center with the most important and work towards the edge, it would be military/provide for family, wife, kids, church, volunteer work, then somewhere you'd find me at the edge. The military first wasn't by choice necessarily, but I was determined to be the provider that my family never really had, and if you have a military career then the military comes first. I had always intended for my wife to take center stage when I retired, but by then I had grown so bitter. I always thought that an early retirement would finally mean that we would be able to have a life together where we could do what we wanted when we wanted and screw The Man. I thought we'd get our closeness back. Today I shiver to think that I could still be married to that woman.
> 
> Right now, I am at a loss. The kids are grown with their own lives, the wife is gone, no career, and I have no idea what's next. It's a really strange place to be, and one that I'm not sure how to handle. Don't get me wrong, I am thankful for what I have. What I really need to do is go back to work somewhere, but after being out of the workforce for two years as a 53-year-old man it would be hard.
> 
> I guess I'm just venting a bit. But things have changed so quickly, and for the first time, I don't know what's next. It's unsettling.


----------



## Cromer

Silverbird said:


> It's not like you can coerce her into sex. That's what happened to me. Husband left me for a younger woman. In the end you have to realise, is it worth staying with someone with differing priorities? She obviously doesn't care about sex at all and I realise that it is important to men, unfortunately, moreso than it should be. She loves you and I don't doubt that you do in your own way but for her sake, don't 'end it' per say but just be honest!! Just tell her about this instead of tiptoeing around plotting to leave without her even knowing.


A lot has happened since my first post, thanks for your input though! We are divorced, she cheated on me several times during our 30-year marriage, and now my kids have doubts that I'm their biological father. My XWW is on the verge of a mental breakdown, my kids don't want to talk to her, and my whole adult life was a lie. It wasn't that she didn't care about sex, she just cared about sex with other men more than me.


----------



## Cromer

So many things left to unravel. I just canceled my annual physical and need to find a new doctor. My XWW and I had the same primary care provider for 7 years and I bet she knew about the HPV and skank-hoing going on. Now I am all icked out. 

Need to change my medical Power of Attorney too, don't want the XWW deciding whether I live or die. Forgot all about that one!

Edited: TMI LOL


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> So many things left to unravel. I just canceled my annual physical and need to find a new doctor. My XWW and I had the same primary care provider for 7 years and I bet she knew about the HPV and skank-hoing going on. Now I am all icked out.
> 
> Need to change my medical Power of Attorney too, don't want the XWW deciding whether I live or die. Forgot all about that one!
> 
> Edited: TMI LOL


Nah, it's not TMI. That a difficult level to achieve according to TAM standards.

Definitely get her off as POA! Yikes.


----------



## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> Nah, it's not TMI. That a difficult level to achieve according to TAM standards.
> 
> Definitely get her off as POA! Yikes.


I just ripped it up. 

Also, the practice I go to (which I like) sent me a form to request a change in primary care physician. There is a place for "Reason for Request". So, this is what I put.

"My ex-wife and I went to Dr. X for over 7 years. I recently found out that my ex-wife was infected with HPV during this time and received treatment. I am certain that Dr. X knew about this, yet put my health at risk by withholding this information from me. I no longer trust Dr. X to look out for my health. She was more concerned with helping my wife keep her secret about having sex outside of our marriage than looking out for my health."


----------



## sokillme

Silverbird said:


> It's not like you can coerce her into sex. That's what happened to me. Husband left me for a younger woman. In the end you have to realise, is it worth staying with someone with differing priorities? She obviously doesn't care about sex at all and I realise that it is important to men, unfortunately, moreso than it should be. She loves you and I don't doubt that you do in your own way but for her sake, don't 'end it' per say but just be honest!! Just tell her about this instead of tiptoeing around plotting to leave without her even knowing.


Keep reading.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I just ripped it up.
> 
> Also, the practice I go to (which I like) sent me a form to request a change in primary care physician. There is a place for "Reason for Request". So, this is what I put.
> 
> "My ex-wife and I went to Dr. X for over 7 years. I recently found out that my ex-wife was infected with HPV during this time and received treatment. I am certain that Dr. X knew about this, yet put my health at risk by withholding this information from me. I no longer trust Dr. X to look out for my health. She was more concerned with helping my wife keep her secret about having sex outside of our marriage than looking out for my health."


Man that is awesome. You should live your whole life like this. Call people out on their bull****. Although Doctor Patient confidentially may have prevented her saying anything. If it was me I think I would have dumped her as a patient.


----------



## GusPolinski

sokillme said:


> Man that is awesome. You should live your whole life like this. Call people out on their bull****. Although Doctor Patient confidentially may have prevented her saying anything. If it was me I think I would have dumped her as a patient.


And yet for all other legal purposes, man and wife are a single, legal entity.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> Man that is awesome. You should live your whole life like this. Call people out on their bull****. Although Doctor Patient confidentially may have prevented her saying anything. If it was me I think I would have dumped her as a patient.


Ten minutes after I emailed the form my phone started ringing. I've gotten four voicemails from four different people wanting me to call their office. Been outside running the miter saw and just noticed this LOL.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> Ten minutes after I emailed the form my phone started ringing. I've gotten four voicemails from four different people wanting me to call their office. Been outside running the miter saw and just noticed this LOL.


That's cause they are worried they are going to get sued.


----------



## 3putt

sokillme said:


> That's cause they are worried they are going to get sued.


A legitimate concern.


----------



## farsidejunky

Cromer said:


> I just ripped it up.
> 
> Also, the practice I go to (which I like) sent me a form to request a change in primary care physician. There is a place for "Reason for Request". So, this is what I put.
> 
> "My ex-wife and I went to Dr. X for over 7 years. I recently found out that my ex-wife was infected with HPV during this time and received treatment. I am certain that Dr. X knew about this, yet put my health at risk by withholding this information from me. I no longer trust Dr. X to look out for my health. She was more concerned with helping my wife keep her secret about having sex outside of our marriage than looking out for my health."


Unfortunately, we both know Tricare will not even register what you have written.

ETA: I guess I shouldn't have spoken so soon. Shocked you got a call to say the least.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Hippa laws would prevent the doctor from telling you anything about your ex wife's doctor visits or tests.


----------



## WildMustang

Cromer said:


> Right now, I am at a loss. The kids are grown with their own lives, the wife is gone, no career, and I have no idea what's next. It's a really strange place to be, and one that I'm not sure how to handle. Don't get me wrong, I am thankful for what I have. What I really need to do is go back to work somewhere, but after being out of the workforce for two years as a 53-year-old man it would be hard.
> 
> I guess I'm just venting a bit. But things have changed so quickly, and for the first time, I don't know what's next. It's unsettling.


 @Cromer Congratulations on your escape from Crazy Town and your new found freedom. I know what it's like to wake up one day and suddenly realize your whole married life has been one big lie. We have that in common. It can be eerily disorienting and unnerving, to say the least. 

I am a 53 year old woman, was married 28 years and been divorced 3 years (as of April 7).

Have you ever heard of a man named Jocko Lillink? 

He is an American podcaster, author, and retired Navy SEAL. He received the Silver Star and Bronze Star for his service in the Iraq War. He was commander of SEAL Team Three's Task Unit Bruiser during the Battle of Ramadi. Together with fellow former SEAL Leif Babin, Willink wrote the book Extreme Ownership and founded the consulting firm Echelon Front. He hosts a weekly podcast with friend Echo Charles, called the Jocko Podcast.

While I have never served in our military, I find his podcasts interesting and very helpful. I think you might as well. He gives a lot of practical advice to retired military and also civilian people in general on how to get the most out of their lives, find direction and purpose, reinvent their lives, etc. Here is a link to his podcast web page. Jocko Podcast | Leadership and Discipline

Another great resource that I find helpful and interesting, is a guy named Jordan Peterson, a clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at University of Toronto. He is Canadian. He recently wrote a book that is #1 on all the lists, called "12 Rules For Life - An Antidote to Chaos" It is a great book. I found it to be very helpful. He has a gazillion Youtube videos that I also find very interesting and helpful. Check this guy out:






This Youtube video is an interview discussing his book, but all his other Youtube videos are also super informative and highly effective if the advice is followed. 

I am so happy for you and your new girlfriend! You are such an honorable man and a great catch for any lady looking for a partner in life! I wish you and yours *MANY BLESSINGS!*

*Thank you for so honorably serving our country and making our world a better place! YOU rock! YOU are AWESOME!!!!*


----------



## GusPolinski

Faithful Wife said:


> Hippa laws would prevent the doctor from telling you anything about your ex wife's doctor visits or tests.


Doesn’t make it right.

Just makes it not illegal.


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## Thor

GusPolinski said:


> Doesn’t make it right.
> 
> Just makes it not illegal.


I wonder if there will be a lawsuit at some point. A doc who has direct incontrovertible knowledge of a medical issue which could be a lethal threat to a patient should be obligated to inform that patient. Yes it is a conflict with HIPAA, but there is certainly a strong argument that a patient's life is more important than another patient's privacy. More so when the other patient is a spouse.


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## GusPolinski

Thor said:


> I wonder if there will be a lawsuit at some point. A doc who has direct incontrovertible knowledge of a medical issue which could be a lethal threat to a patient should be obligated to inform that patient. Yes it is a conflict with HIPAA, but there is certainly a strong argument that a patient's life is more important than another patient's privacy. More so when the other patient is a spouse.


100% agree

Aren’t docs required to report communicable diseases to the health department? And doesn’t the health department require that sexual partners be notified? I guess it depends on the municipality.

Then again, maybe her standard of living and creature comforts really do deserve more consideration that her husban... er, PROVIDER’S health.


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## Thor

GusPolinski said:


> Aren’t docs required to report communicable diseases to the health department? And doesn’t the health department require that sexual partners be notified? I guess it depends on the municipality.


Not required in Utah.


----------



## Cromer

Faithful Wife said:


> Hippa laws would prevent the doctor from telling you anything about your ex wife's doctor visits or tests.


The practice "management team" wants to meet with me to discuss the best path forward for any health care concerns that I may have. That was the last voicemail.

My XWW and I shared the same doctor. Although the doctor couldn't tell me about her, there was nothing keeping her from telling me that I should be tested. No explanation necessary, just recommend that I get tested for HPV. She knew that I was at risk, she was also MY doctor, but did nothing AT ALL. This makes me angry.


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## farsidejunky

"Haven't you done enough harm?"


----------



## Malaise

Cromer said:


> The practice "management team" wants to meet with me to discuss the best path forward for any health care concerns that I may have. That was the last voicemail.
> 
> My XWW and I shared the same doctor. Although the doctor couldn't tell me about her, there was nothing keeping her from telling me that I should be tested. No explanation necessary, just recommend that I get tested for HPV. She knew that I was at risk, she was also MY doctor, but did nothing AT ALL. This makes me angry.


Explore your legal options.


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## wilson

Cromer said:


> My XWW and I shared the same doctor. Although the doctor couldn't tell me about her, there was nothing keeping her from telling me that I should be tested. No explanation necessary, just recommend that I get tested for HPV. She knew that I was at risk, she was also MY doctor, but did nothing AT ALL. This makes me angry.


There is a chance your shared doctor didn't know about the HPV. She could have gone to her gyno or a clinic to get it treated, in which case her primary would have never known.


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## farsidejunky

This is true, but it will be illegal for them to confirm or deny without his xw permission.


----------



## naiveonedave

GusPolinski said:


> 100% agree
> 
> Aren’t docs required to report communicable diseases to the health department? And doesn’t the health department require that sexual partners be notified? I guess it depends on the municipality.
> 
> Then again, maybe her standard of living and creature comforts really do deserve more consideration that her husban... er, PROVIDER’S health.


what ever happened to the Hippocratic oath?


----------



## turnera

Cromer said:


> Right now, I am at a loss. The kids are grown with their own lives, the wife is gone, no career, and I have no idea what's next. It's a really strange place to be, and one that I'm not sure how to handle. Don't get me wrong, I am thankful for what I have. What I really need to do is go back to work somewhere, but after being out of the workforce for two years as a 53-year-old man it would be hard.
> 
> I guess I'm just venting a bit. But things have changed so quickly, and for the first time, I don't know what's next. It's unsettling.


Think back in time: what things have you wished you'd tried but couldn't? You have no ties now. Start some new memories. Go sailing or skydiving or surfing or whatever. Set up a bar on an island.


----------



## Cromer

Cromer said:


> Without going into a long story my upbringing was turbulent, to say the least. Welfare household, no father, men constantly cycling through our home, lived with my grandmother as a teen, lots of abuse, being the fruit of my mother's affair and blaming me for losing the only man she ever truly loved until the day she died (ya, I caused her to cheat), etc, etc, etc.
> 
> Well, early on I decided that I would get out of the black hole of a welfare and substance dependent family cycle in which all of them remain mired to this day. I put myself through school and built two successful careers. *I committed to myself that I would always be with my kids.* I wanted the family I never had and tried my best to build it. I would've lived in a van and eaten bean's and franks every day if that's what it took to support them. I have an Eagle Scout, two Gold Award Scouts, all 3d Degree Black Belts (do NOT mess with our daughters, they can shoot too), all National Honor Society, etc. They will have completed college with no debt. They love their mom and dad and have no trouble showing it. I've shown nothing but respect towards their mother.
> 
> My life's accomplishment will not be measured in how much I got laid. It's our children. I'm proud of them, proud of the job we've done, and have no regrets.
> 
> But I need a change.


I am alone tonight, GF won't be here until tomorrow (GF DD drama). I was reading back through this thread and it's hard to describe how I feel. But this is something I can say, without a doubt, hasn't changed despite all of the churn of the past year. I love my kids, and of all the titles I've held during my life, Dad is the most precious.


----------



## Graywolf2

Cromer said:


> But this is something I can say, without a doubt, hasn't changed despite all of the churn of the past year. I love my kids, and of all the titles I've held during my life, Dad is the most precious.


I have a wonderful idea even if I do say so myself. Gather your three kids and tell them how blessed you are that all of them turned out so well. That it’s rare and special,
Then announce that you want their permission to legally adopt them if the DNA turns out to be negative. Look at one of them in the eye and ask them. Wait for an answer and then move to the next.

I’m not a lawyer and they may already legally be your kid but I think the symbolism is great.

I know that you can adopt adults in some states.


----------



## MissyE

Have you ever sat down with her and had a heart to heart conversation about HER needs being met all these years? As a woman, I can say for sure that when a woman's needs (not necessarily sexually) are not being met there comes the disconnect as far as intimacy/sex. No man (or woman) is perfect in all ways and if you search your soul you will find that you aren't either. Either she is harboring hurt from the past which she hasn't gotten over or she is just waiting for YOU to file for divorce to get it over and done with so she doesn't have to feel guilty about doing it herself. She can start over just lie you can after 50 so she may be looking forward to that. Give her a chance to vent her feelings about why she has been turned off to your advances. Just heard the other day that the prime of a woman's sexuality and desire for sex is 66, believe it or not. I can assure you it can be for many women. Good luck.


----------



## Cromer

MissyE said:


> Have you ever sat down with her and had a heart to heart conversation about HER needs being met all these years? As a woman, I can say for sure that when a woman's needs (not necessarily sexually) are not being met there comes the disconnect as far as intimacy/sex. No man (or woman) is perfect in all ways and if you search your soul you will find that you aren't either. Either she is harboring hurt from the past which she hasn't gotten over or she is just waiting for YOU to file for divorce to get it over and done with so she doesn't have to feel guilty about doing it herself. She can start over just lie you can after 50 so she may be looking forward to that. Give her a chance to vent her feelings about why she has been turned off to your advances. Just heard the other day that the prime of a woman's sexuality and desire for sex is 66, believe it or not. I can assure you it can be for many women. Good luck.


Hi @MissyE! We are divorced. My XWW was a cheating skank ho who got a long-lasting STD. She wouldn't have sex with me because she was afraid I would find out about her cheating skank ho ways if she passed it onto me and I noticed (HPV). She didn't want the divorce, her last AP had been ten years before. All my kids are getting swabbed for DNA paternity testing tomorrow at a party I'm having in their honor. Then I'm headed off to a sunny beach location with the GF, plan to have lots of fruity drinks and sex, and admire her in her new bikinis and her newly found confidence to wear them. Life is good!

ETA. Page 25 and 35 for the good stuff.


----------



## Cromer

What a great day. I love my kids more than anything. Swabs go to the lab tomorrow. It's local and will take just over a week or so. DD1, as always, set the tone. She joked "if my swab has two DNA results, it's because I made X (her hubby) a happy man today" LOLOL. We had a few drinks by then, and DD1 can't hold booze. They were all so cool with it and they know that no matter what that I am their dad. 

GF has such amazing poise, empathy, and understanding. My kids really like her, and DD1 told me "you'll be married in a year" lol. It is like Providence dropped her into my family. She is so wise. DS3, who has the hardest time with all of this, told me that he hopes that GF can make me happy and that he really likes her. That is serious progress for him. He says that he hates what his mom did but understands that I don't want him to hate her. He has to work out his feelings. DD2 just wants it all to go away. I'm starting to worry about her more.

GF and I leave tomorrow for our vacay! DS3 and his GF are going to stay in a cottage on the property while we are gone. Maybe that's questionable judgment on my part but we had "the talk" about leaving nothing to chance. Besides, he's an adult in college and can do what he wants, and I'd just rather have him do it here than anywhere else. I like his GF, but hope like Hell he plays the field before he settles on a woman for life. I don't want him to make my mistake, but if I hadn't made that mistake my kids wouldn't have existed. Ugh.

So, my blonde, bald white boy arse is about to be lathered in sunscreen for a week while my brunette GF of Mediterranean heritage is looking forward to basking in the sun. I can't wait. Peace all, and I hope that all of the broken hearts of TAM can find peace in their lives. Just live life.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> What a great day. I love my kids more than anything. Swabs go to the lab tomorrow. It's local and will take just over a week or so. DD1, as always, set the tone. She joked "if my swab has two DNA results, it's because I made X (her hubby) a happy man today" LOLOL. We had a few drinks by then, and DD1 can't hold booze. They were all so cool with it and they know that no matter what that I am their dad.
> 
> GF has such amazing poise, empathy, and understanding. My kids really like her, and DD1 told me "you'll be married in a year" lol. It is like Providence dropped her into my family. She is so wise. DS3, who has the hardest time with all of this, told me that he hopes that GF can make me happy and that he really likes her. That is serious progress for him. He says that he hates what his mom did but understands that I don't want him to hate her. He has to work out his feelings. DD2 just wants it all to go away. I'm starting to worry about her more.
> 
> GF and I leave tomorrow for our vacay! DS3 and his GF are going to stay in a cottage on the property while we are gone. Maybe that's questionable judgment on my part but we had "the talk" about leaving nothing to chance. Besides, he's an adult in college and can do what he wants, and I'd just rather have him do it here than anywhere else. I like his GF, but hope like Hell he plays the field before he settles on a woman for life. I don't want him to make my mistake, but if I hadn't made that mistake my kids wouldn't have existed. Ugh.
> 
> So, my blonde, bald white boy arse is about to be lathered in sunscreen for a week while my brunette GF of Mediterranean heritage is looking forward to basking in the sun. I can't wait. Peace all, and I hope that all of the broken hearts of TAM can find peace in their lives. Just live life.


 @Cromer How was your trip my friend?


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> @Cromer How was your trip my friend?


 @sokillme just got in a couple of hours ago after dropping GF at her place. She says she needs tomorrow to recover before going to a teacher's workday on Monday. Spring Break ends for students on Tuesday.

Since you asked, there is only one word that comes to mind to describe the past week:

*Legendary*

I didn't take my phone, although GF took hers. I turned it on a few minutes ago and had 589 unread texts, 109 emails, and a full voicemail. I haven't looked to see who they are from. Oh, the joy of the real world. Also, I have dozens of fb messages too. GF posted and tagged us in a bunch of pictures on her fb. If people weren't paying attention before, they certainly are now. 

I have some thoughts I'd like to post and get some feedback, but I think that I'll start a thread in the private forum.

It sucks to be back.


----------



## As'laDain

nearly 600 text messages! holy crap!


----------



## Cromer

As'laDain said:


> nearly 600 text messages! holy crap!


At first glance, it's all drama. I would attempt to summarize but it's so far out in space I'm not sure anyone would believe it!


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> At first glance, it's all drama. I would attempt to summarize but it's so far out in space I'm not sure anyone would believe it!


From your ex I suppose? Or surrogates?


----------



## 3putt

Cromer said:


> At first glance, it's all drama. I would attempt to summarize but it's so far out in space I'm not sure anyone would believe it!


Believe me....I would.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> From your ex I suppose? Or surrogates?


All of the above. Since I blocked XWW from my phone, she got a burner phone and sent me a ton of texts. Emails too, but I've not read much of it. WTF stalk much? More of the same; how sorry she is, she wants to make things right, why didn't I tell her that I was going (really?!?), how she wished that it was her with me on that trip, yada yada yada. I also got lots of texts from other people we both know. Basically, between the texts and fb messages, the situation looks something like this:

- Many people we both know don't know the entirety of the situation surrounding our divorce
- Lots of people took her side and still do but have no information other than that I just "left" her
- Many had no idea that I was seeing someone, or seeing someone "seriously"
- A lot of the messages are nosey womenfolk aquaintances of XWW from over the years asking a bunch of questions that are none of their damn business, or leaping to conclusions that I left my cheating skank ho XWW for GF. Keep in mind many of these people we haven't "seen" in years.
- GF's fb pictures are what stirred the bees in all of the bonnets
- A few of my guy friends, to include the H's of some of these nosey women, are completely opposite. Things like "wtf did you do to deserve her?" or "you're hittin' that?" It's so funny to see the contrast. And ya, she was lookin' good.
- I called GF because I was worried she was being pulled in, and she doesn't care. She didn't get any hate from anyone, she is well respected and her friends are happy for her. In her words "after this week, they can all go f' themselves because that's all they're probably getting anyway" LOL. Full disclosure, we had an awesome time.

*This crap is freakin' CRAZY.* 

It's obvious that XWW is stirring the pot with a bunch of busybodies. I'm thinking about starting a fb group to keep it simple for them to gossip: "Cheating Ho Skank XWW's Coven." Or, I may just deactivate the damned account. I so badly want to do a Reader's Digest version of what happened and put it on blast. Geez. I'm getting a new cell number next week.


----------



## Edmund

@Cromer I hope this isn't too nosy on my part but did the DNA test results come and did they confirm your daughters and son as you expected? If that is too personal please just ignore this question.


----------



## Cromer

Edmund said:


> @Cromer I hope this isn't too nosy on my part but did the DNA test results come and did they confirm your daughters and son as you expected? If that is too personal please just ignore this question.


It's not too nosy at all and thanks for asking. I hope that my story might help someone else at some point, so why not put it out there? As @farsidejunky said there is a lot to be learned here.

I have an email from the lab that says results should be available online by Monday at noon and gave a link and access code. I'm not sure how I feel about it other than butterflies in the stomach. I will post an update when I have it.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> All of the above. Since I blocked XWW from my phone, she got a burner phone and sent me a ton of texts. Emails too, but I've not read much of it. WTF stalk much? More of the same; how sorry she is, she wants to make things right, why didn't I tell her that I was going (really?!?), how she wished that it was her with me on that trip, yada yada yada. I also got lots of texts from other people we both know. Basically, between the texts and fb messages, the situation looks something like this:
> 
> - Many people we both know don't know the entirety of the situation surrounding our divorce
> - Lots of people took her side and still do but have no information other than that I just "left" her
> - Many had no idea that I was seeing someone, or seeing someone "seriously"
> - A lot of the messages are nosey womenfolk aquaintances of XWW from over the years asking a bunch of questions that are none of their damn business, or leaping to conclusions that I left my cheating skank ho XWW for GF. Keep in mind many of these people we haven't "seen" in years.
> - GF's fb pictures are what stirred the bees in all of the bonnets
> - A few of my guy friends, to include the H's of some of these nosey women, are completely opposite. Things like "wtf did you do to deserve her?" or "you're hittin' that?" It's so funny to see the contrast. And ya, she was lookin' good.
> - I called GF because I was worried she was being pulled in, and she doesn't care. She didn't get any hate from anyone, she is well respected and her friends are happy for her. In her words "after this week, they can all go f' themselves because that's all they're probably getting anyway" LOL. Full disclosure, we had an awesome time.
> 
> *This crap is freakin' CRAZY.*
> 
> It's obvious that XWW is stirring the pot with a bunch of busybodies. I'm thinking about starting a fb group to keep it simple for them to gossip: "Cheating Ho Skank XWW's Coven." Or, I may just deactivate the damned account. I so badly want to do a Reader's Digest version of what happened and put it on blast. Geez. I'm getting a new cell number next week.


So I wish I could predict the stock market as well as I can predict your wife. She is not done, tell your girlfriend to expect shenanigans. Protect herself at work for instance. Your ex wife is bipolar or a narcissist or something. Block her burner phone. Tell your mother in law. Someone has to get through to her that it's over there is no chance. 

If I were you I would have a canned email or text response, something discrete but basically spelling out that your wife was the one who cheated. Something like. 

Out of respect for my ex wife I had no intention of talking about any of this however, since many of you are asking, yes it's true I am seeing someone new. While I appreciate the inquires and sympathy you have for my ex wife, I must say that though the demise of my marriage may be new to many of you, it has been over in spirit for many years. Though I tried for years, I was not able to fully recover from the betrayals in our marriage, even some which have only been revealed to me in the last year after we had divorced. I understand and appreciate all the sympathy and support for my ex wife, and would ask you to continue to do so. I spent many years with this women and she is the mother or my children so it is hard to see the difficulty she now has dealing the actions she took that eventually lead to the demise of our marriage and her life. However, for me, after years of pain and confusion I am eager to move on with my life and there is no longer any contact between us. So I ask you to kindly let move on with my life in peace. Thanks again for your warm wishes and concerns, it is my ex wife however who need these as she is the one who has been affected the worst from he choices. 

Maybe only send that to the ones who are the most judgy about it. If you care, maybe you don't.

People like your wife don't take not getting their way very well, your wife has serious mental illness, however I think that a lot of times peoples choices bring that about. This is a women who basically lived most of her adult life compartmentalizing and in two separate worlds. Instead of growing and maturing dealing with disappointments and not getting everything she wanted, she decided to live half her life in an alternative universe where her terrible destructive choices were never going to have any affect on her marriage or most of all the ones who loved her. It's only now that this fantasy world has come crashing down. Now without ever learning the skill she has to deal with not getting what she wants, this should have been a life long process. So many WS have this happen.

I have no doubts many others only are saved because their BS chooses to spare them, often foolishly.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> *So I wish I could predict the stock market as well as I can predict your wife. *
> 
> You would be a rich man!
> 
> *Tell your mother in law. Someone has to get through to her that it's over there is no chance. *
> 
> Her family is part of the problem, no doubt. I know that they all think that I'm somehow still responsible for her. They don't get that I don't want anything to do with her or them anymore, and I have no obligations other than the alimony and keeping her in military healthcare (DEERS). They think because I was with her for so long, and I made a vow, that I still have an obligation to her. "For better or worse" doesn't mean sticking with a cheating woman who won't live up to "to have and to hold". Remember, they never divorce in her family. They just don't get it.
> 
> *If I were you I would have a canned email or text response, something discrete but basically spelling out that your wife was the one who cheated. Something like. *
> 
> I'm going to put something together and send it EVERYWHERE. I will be diplomatic but I am putting this to bed.
> 
> *I have no doubts many others only are saved because their BS chooses to spare them, often foolishly.*
> 
> I read a lot Walloped's thread on SI after seeing so many references to it here, then saw the latest when his WW had her breakdown. I also read some of her thread, although it didn't generate any sympathy from me about my XWW. I think this is where my XWW is headed, she is not right in the head right now. But it's not my responsibility anymore other than keeping my children safe from her, if necessary.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I read a lot Walloped's thread on SI after seeing so many references to it here, then saw the latest when his WW had her breakdown. I also read some of her thread, although it didn't generate any sympathy from me about my XWW. I think this is where my XWW is headed, she is not right in the head right now. But it's not my responsibility anymore other than keeping my children safe from her, if necessary.


I think without a doubt that is where Mrs W would be without him staying. Not a good reason to stay though. She would have crashed and burned hard but maybe even blamed him. There are a lot of WW like this. There is a post I wrote about those being strong do the best or something (I don't feel like looking it up but you can find it if you search posts that I started). I post it a lot on threads where people come here right in the middle of finding out. It's all the post were folks just end the marriage and are done. Like cold turkey, it's remarkable how many of the spouses then end up having a total life breakdown. I suspect it's because the BS was like their emotional anchor to real life. They have real life with their spouse and the rest of their life is like a big fantasy with no consequences. They are able to do this because usually the BS is the type of spouse that thinks it's their duty to keep them from all the consequences. A lot of times too these people got married very young, like you did, so they never had to deal with real life without this partner who is kind of like a buffer for them. Their partner basically just moved right into the parent role without them even knowing it. That is just not a good dynamic. It's not healthy. 

Anyway in most instances when the BS has finally had enough and really detaches the WS crashes and burns. Hard to learn to be a self sufficient, decent person and adult in the middle of your life. If you read that post you will see how common the pattern is, that is basically why I can tell where yours is going. Unfortunately a lot of the WS attempt suicide as well, but really the passive kind where it's a call for help, not really trying to die. Something to think about, hope it doesn't happen in your case. Also NOT your responsibility.

Then their are the ones where the WS slowly crashes and burns. The thing is these people though they may be attractive and such just don't have it in them to have long lasting healthy relationships. I think this is because all of there fulfillment come from external sources, when something is wrong they look for external sources to fix it. There perspective is always outward. That is not how a good healthy life works. So they just don't know how to make a relationship, even with someone who is a good choice, work. Their lives are just one broken relationship after another. 

This is why I am so down on R most of the time, unless the WS really changes they are just not a good choice. I will say though that R for the WS is like a life saver in so many cases. All the ones who are really working hard, the ones on SI, where would they be without being given the chance? At least with their spouse still with them, it forces them to do work on themselves. If the spouse leaves most of them will just wander on to another relationship not realizing that THEY are the ones who have the problem and are never going to have a good relationship until they fix themselves. Plus it's easier to fix patterns that cause problems in relationships with practice and a practice partner. 

That's not to say that the BS don't have to fix themselves too. Saying that I am not trying to insult you, and I hope at the very least least, by the amount of time I have spent on your thread, posting these long winded post, that you feel I do have your best interest at heart. Even if you think I am wrong. I say all that to say you DO plan on going to counseling right? You are going to read books about codependency right? There are also books about being in love with a female narcissist. I am not saying that is you but you should check. You were in a relationship with an abusive women for a long time. This was your only primary relationship in your life. In my mind there is just no way that being with a person who we now see obviously has serious emotional problems didn't affect you in some way. Really no different then having parents who are emotionally abusive and unstable. You need to work out if this is the case, also how you missed the signs so that you don't bring patterns that were established with a crazy person into a healthy relationship. Just like WS if you do suffer from that then you won't be able to have a successful relationship in the long run.


----------



## sandcastle

sokillme said:


> You are going to read books about codependency right? There are also books about being in love with a female narcissist. I am not saying that is you but you should check.


Co- dependency.
Term coined by Melody. She has made a ton of money off this term .

What EXACTLY is co- dependency?

A mother and her newborn?They both should need each other.


----------



## sokillme

sandcastle said:


> Co- dependency.
> Term coined by Melody. She has made a ton of money off this term .
> 
> What EXACTLY is co- dependency?
> 
> A mother and her newborn?They both should need each other.


Yeah, not really. Now maybe you don't believe in it, that's fine. Lots of researchers and specialist do.


----------



## sandcastle

sokillme said:


> Yeah, not really. Now maybe you don't believe in it, that's fine. Lots of researchers and specialist do.


You would be shocked how many" researchers(?) and specialists" actually think it is junk.

But! Let's just agree to disagree.


----------



## skerzoid

cromer

1. Life is short. Every day is a gift not a promise. Enjoy the hell out of this new life.

2. Go with your heart. Why be cautious? Sounds like a winner to me.

3. Any news on the DNA yet?

4. You got some great babies there. Sounds like they got your back.

5. Your strength is an inspiration. Keep helping others on TAM. You can do so much good with your story.


----------



## Satya

I would have deactivated FB long ago, but that's me.

It's always full of pointless drama and people's micro-aggressions. If anyone really cares to know how you are, they can pick up the phone.

Oh, and block your ex's burner phone. Do not answer those texts.

Do not answer anything that is no one's business.


----------



## sandcastle

sokillme said:


> Yeah, not really. Now maybe you don't believe in it, that's fine. Lots of researchers and specialist do.


Yeah not really is for sure not a wiki entry.

Junk science at best.


----------



## GusPolinski

I’d tell you to block your ex’s burner, but she’d just get another. Maybe have your number changed and give it to your kids with the understanding that they’re not to give it to their mother.

I’d definitely start dropping FB friends, including the crude-ass “OMG dude you hittin’ that?” mother****ers.

Might set the story straight first, though.

Sans details, of course.


----------



## GusPolinski

sandcastle said:


> Co- dependency.
> Term coined by Melody. She has made a ton of money off this term .
> 
> What EXACTLY is co- dependency?
> 
> A mother and her newborn?They both should need each other.





sandcastle said:


> You would be shocked how many" researchers(?) and specialists" actually think it is junk.
> 
> But! Let's just agree to disagree.


Agreed.

People throw that term around like it’s just _completely unnatural_ for a couple to pair bond over the course of decades.


----------



## GusPolinski

Cromer said:


> Her family is part of the problem, no doubt. I know that they all think that I'm somehow still responsible for her. They don't get that I don't want anything to do with her or them anymore, and I have no obligations other than the alimony and keeping her in military healthcare (DEERS). They think because I was with her for so long, and I made a vow, that I still have an obligation to her. "For better or worse" doesn't mean sticking with a cheating woman who won't live up to "to have and to hold". *Remember, they never divorce in her family.* They just don't get it.


What about infidelity?


----------



## sandcastle

GusPolinski said:


> Agreed.
> 
> People throw that term around like it’s just _completely unnatural_ for a couple to pair bond over the course of decades.


We are all dependent on every person we have a relationship with.


Thank God women don't just get knocked up, plop the baby out and dump the newborn on the father and move to next village.

That is just for starters.






You have a boss? Employees?


----------



## sokillme

I don't know I find 



> Among the core characteristics of codependency, the most common theme is an excessive reliance on other people for approval and a sense of identity. Some codependents often find themselves in relationships where their primary role is that of rescuer, supporter, and confidante. These helper types are often dependent on the other person's poor functioning to satisfy their own emotional needs. Many codependents place a lower priority on their own needs, while being excessively preoccupied with the needs of others. Codependency can occur in any type of relationship, including family, work, friendship, and also romantic, peer or community relationships. In a codependent relationship, the codependent's sense of purpose is based on making extreme sacrifices to satisfy their partner's needs.


could describe about half the guys who post on these sites.


----------



## sandcastle

sokillme said:


> I don't know I find
> 
> 
> 
> could describe about half the guys who post on these sites.


Yep-

Buy my book! And let's talk about your co-dependency for hours at 325 per billable hours.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> *I say all that to say you DO plan on going to counseling right?*
> 
> I haven't said anything about it here but I have been going for a while. I have an excellent counselor from the VA. She has been great and wow has she seen it all. At one point my doctor thought I was mildly depressed and sent me for an evaluation. Right off the bat, the psych wanted to put me on meds and I declined.
> 
> *You are going to read books about codependency right?*
> 
> My counselor doesn't use this term much re: relationships. We've talked about it because of what I've read on TAM. It is her thinking that too many faithful, devoted, and supportive relationship partners are labeled with this when they are recovering from betrayal or loss and that more often than not, that label makes things worse.


I DO appreciate all of the time you've spent on my situation, it has been and continues to be very helpful even if I see things differently sometimes. It makes me think.


----------



## Cromer

skerzoid said:


> cromer
> 
> 1. Life is short. Every day is a gift not a promise. Enjoy the hell out of this new life.
> 
> 2. Go with your heart. Why be cautious? Sounds like a winner to me.
> 
> 3. Any news on the DNA yet? *Monday*
> 
> 4. You got some great babies there. Sounds like they got your back.
> 
> 5. Your strength is an inspiration. Keep helping others on TAM. You can do so much good with your story.


----------



## Cromer

GusPolinski said:


> I’d tell you to block your ex’s burner, but she’d just get another. Maybe have your number changed and give it to your kids with the understanding that they’re not to give it to their mother.
> 
> I’d definitely start dropping FB friends, including the crude-ass “OMG dude you hittin’ that?” mother****ers.
> 
> *It came from two guys specifically, and both have been joking about how I'm a free man and should become a man-****, etc. It's really juvenile, and they do need to go.*
> 
> Might set the story straight first, though.
> 
> *Happening today, then buh-bye fb.*
> 
> Sans details, of course.


----------



## Cromer

GusPolinski said:


> What about infidelity?


None in her family that I know of, but something like that would sure to be kept as a dark family secret.


----------



## Cynthia

What your ex-wife has done in telling her lies to every person she can think of shows the depth of her dysfunction. It is amazing that she wants you back so badly that she is choosing to put this kind of pressure on you by giving out your phone number and asking people to contact you. Does she not realize that telling lies about you and trying to make you feel bad will not win you back!

If she was truly contrite, she would leave you alone, be praying for your recovery, and be happy that you are building a healthier life, plus doing everything she could to build her own life away from you and to be a good mother to her children, but nope; instead her entire focus is in getting you back or destroying your reputation when it is her reputation that deserves to be destroyed. What an awful person she is! It’s amazing that she was able to keep all this malignancy stored inside her, but now it’s all coming spilling out. Apparently she was under the delusion that you would eventually cool down enough to take her back.



sandcastle said:


> We are all dependent on every person we have a relationship with.


This is not what co-dependence is about. You are describing inter-dependence, which is normal and healthy. Co-dependence is how people help each other to maintain their dysfunctions. Inter-dependence is how people help each other to function properly. That's it in a nutshell.

I don't think Cromer is co-dependent, but I do think his ex-wife is having a mental breakdown. The way the Cromer is responding to her drama shows that he is not co-dependent. Anyone can be fooled by a liar. No one can read minds. When someone is hiding something it is hidden and therefore unknowable unless the liar is sloppy. Most people get sloppy at one point, but this woman had many props to help her and she took full advantage of those props. Being tricked is not a symptom of co-dependency.


Cromer said:


> My counselor doesn't use this term much re: relationships. We've talked about it because of what I've read on TAM. It is her thinking that too many faithful, devoted, and supportive relationship partners are labeled with this when they are recovering from betrayal or loss and that more often than not, that label makes things worse.


I agree with your therapist. I think the co-dependency label is over used and people are called co-dependent unfairly.


Cromer said:


> None in her family that I know of, but something like that would sure to be kept as a dark family secret.


It’s a bit late for that. She has maligned you to the world and wants you to keep her secret while she lies and turns it all on you. You are fortunate that you got out of that marriage. She obviously has no concern whatsoever for your well-being or she would not be doing this to you. You could actually have a case for slander at this point. You might consider having your attorney scare her with a cease and desist letter telling her that she needs to come clean with the truth or you will see her in court. I don’t think you’re really going to want to sue her, but she should understand the gravity of the situation and that you are not going to tolerate being harassed over something that she caused.


----------



## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> What your ex-wife has done in telling her lies to every person she can think of shows the depth of her dysfunction. It is amazing that she wants you back so badly that she is choosing to put this kind of pressure on you by giving out your phone number and asking people to contact you. Does she not realize that telling lies about you and trying to make you feel bad will not win you back!
> 
> *I honestly have no idea what her thought process is right now. If you'd told me a few years ago that she could be 10-ways-crazy like this, I would've laughed at the notion.*
> 
> I agree with your therapist. I think the co-dependency label is over used and people are called co-
> dependent unfairly.
> 
> *The way she put it: when many patients come to see her, they are looking for a label so that everything will make sense. Many have done a lot of searching on the internet and self-diagnose without any real understanding. Co-dependancy is an easy label to apply to a LOT of people, so people label themselves or others do it for them. The problem is that patients, in turn, will try to change themselves in ways that are more harmful than good for current or future relationships. For example, thinking that being supportive of a partner who has a problem is being "co-dependent", therefore backing away when they shouldn't and hence, sabotaging the relationship. I'm not sure if I remember it all correctly but she made a lot of sense. She didn't think it applied to me. *
> 
> It’s a bit late for that. She has maligned you to the world and wants you to keep her secret while she lies and turns it all on you.
> 
> *I sent the same group message to everyone who had messaged me with other than support, on my phone and fb. I wasn't explicit. I simply stated that our marriage wasn't their business, they don't know the facts, and if anyone here would be excited to stay in a marriage where you were betrayed multiple times, feel free to judge me. Otherwise, STFU and be happy for me and GF. There was a LOT of back peddling. *


ETA: I hate to give up fb because it is so easy to keep in touch with all of the people I've known throughout my years in the military, and my former students. I think that I will just go on an extended hiatus.


----------



## As'laDain

Cromer said:


> ETA: I hate to give up fb because it is so easy to keep in touch with all of the people I've known throughout my years in the military, and my former students. I think that I will just go on an extended hiatus.


you can also just deactivate your account. i have had to do that a time or two. you can always reactivate it at a later date.


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> ETA: I hate to give up fb because it is so easy to keep in touch with all of the people I've known throughout my years in the military, and my former students. I think that I will just go on an extended hiatus.


You could open a new Facebook account and only invite people you want to find you.


----------



## sokillme

CynthiaDe said:


> It’s amazing that she was able to keep all this malignancy stored inside her, but now it’s all coming spilling out.


See this gets to the heart of my post. I don't believe it works like this most of the time. I thank a lot of times it's really about how they both got together very young and the abused partner didn't know any better. They just assume their partner is normal and everyone is like that, or it's something they are doing. He wouldn't be the first and who can blame them. However I am constantly amazed at how crazy some spouses are and the person with them just seems to think this is how it is. So maybe he is not codependent but I still say you can't live a lifetime with such crazy and not have it have an affect on you.

I really see no evidence that people all of a sudden change overnight unless their is some brain issue such as dementia. Usually there were always signs it's just that they were not noticed, often times as there is very little experience with someone different. How many times have we seen posts from people who move on and are like, I never had any idea how terrible my ex was until I got with the person I am with now. 

That is really all I am saying, ignore the word codependent if you want, all I am saying is get an emotional checkup when you have been exposed so long to such a toxic person. It's really just that simple, and it sounds like Cromer is, which is a good thing.


----------



## Cromer

@sokillme for so long, I thought my XWW was the most amazing woman ever. Granted, I came from an American Horror Story of dysfunctional families of mostly crazy alcoholic cheating women and deadbeat absent men, and I can honestly say that the only good female role model I had was my grandmother (with whom I lived most of my childhood and all teen years). My mother hated her, a long story not for here. But she was an old-school Southern Lady, and she drilled into my head what it meant to be a gentleman and how a woman should be treated by a man. 

One of the things that GF remarked about last week was that she had never had anyone treat her with the respect that I do, and she saw it as a strength, not a weakness (one of many deep discussions lol). Opening the door? A sweet gesture. Pulling out her chair? Never had anyone do it. Walking to her street side? Never heard of it. Maybe that makes me a sucker, I don't know. I'm sure that I was ripe for the picking for the first pretty girl to come along who treated me right, and college was certainly the place for it. I see that now, but the past is the past. However, I don't apologize for who I am despite the 3d Wave Feminist view that I'm a microaggressor. 

Ironically it was my XWW who pursued me. I was so head-over-heels about having such a beautiful creature interested in me. I was basically afraid to talk to women at that time and would never have had the balls to approach one on my own, especially a beautiful popular one who was on the basketball cheerleading squad. After I proposed, she confided in me that several of her Sorority sisters told her that she was making a mistake and that she could do so much better. If I could've only seen the future.

I'm done putting women on a pedestal. But, I will always treat the woman I'm with as a gentleman should. With eyes wide open this time.


----------



## Curse of Millhaven

Hello! I’ve read most of this thread (rollercoaster!) and am not really an advice giver or taker, but wanted to share that even though I’m a stranger to you… I’m proud of you. Knowing that there are men (and women!) out there like you gives me hope in humanity (not an easy feat!) 

You seem like an amazing father, loyal loving partner, and upstanding quality gentleman. You’re an ideal embodiment of integrity, honor, and strength. In other words, I think you’re aces! 

One of my favorite poems, Loss and Gain by Longfellow, has always helped me persevere and given me hope when I need it most, especially the last two lines…”Defeat may be victory in disguise; The lowest ebb is the turn of the tide”.

Your tide has turned for the better, dear sir. 

May the stars always align for you, the heavens light your way, and peace, safety, and contentment be yours. Continued strength to you and your children.


----------



## sandcastle

CynthiaDe said:


> This is not what co-dependence is about. You are describing inter-dependence, which is normal and healthy. Co-dependence is how people help each other to maintain their dysfunctions. Inter-dependence is how people help each other to function properly. That's it in a nutshell.
> 
> I don't think Cromer is co-dependent, but I do think his ex-wife is having a mental breakdown. The way the Cromer is responding to her drama shows that he is not co-dependent. Anyone can be fooled by a liar. No one can read minds. When someone is hiding something it is hidden and therefore unknowable unless the liar is sloppy. Most people get sloppy at one point, but this woman had many props to help her and she took full advantage of those props. Being tricked is not a symptom of co-dependency.
> 
> I agree with your therapist. I think the co-dependency label is over used and people are called co-dependent unfairly.
> 
> .


"CO- Dependence is how people help each other maintain their dysfunction "


And then you go on to talk about " anyone can be fooled by a liar"

So- if a spouse gets conned by a liar and then is driven bat**** crazy by THE sociopath and has to WALK ON EGGSHELLS to maintain sanity and change diapers or go to work everyday to pay bills so everybody can eat...


IS that co- dependent or interdependent?


And there is a billion dollar industry treating the" co- dependent . Or interdependent.


----------



## As'laDain

sandcastle said:


> "CO- Dependence is how people help each other maintain their dysfunction "
> 
> 
> And then you go on to talk about " anyone can be fooled by a liar"
> 
> So- if a spouse gets conned by a liar and then is driven bat**** crazy by THE sociopath and has to WALK ON EGGSHELLS to maintain sanity and change diapers or go to work everyday to pay bills so everybody can eat...
> 
> 
> IS that co- dependent or interdependent?
> 
> 
> And there is a billion dollar industry treating the" co- dependent . Or interdependent.


what point are you trying to make?


----------



## sandcastle

As'laDain said:


> what point are you trying to make?


I'm asking a question.


----------



## Cromer

They are all mine. Lord thank you Jesus.


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> They are all mine. Lord thank you Jesus.


This brought tears to my eyes! Thank God. I am so happy for you and YOUR children.


----------



## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> This brought tears to my eyes! Thank God. I am so happy for you and YOUR children.


I was so nervous, my hands were shaking when I logged in (still are). I admit, this manly man cried like a baby. Thank you for your help and support!


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> I was so nervous, my hands were shaking when I logged in (still are). I admit, this manly man cried like a baby. Thank you for your help and support!


I'm so glad you didn't hold it in. Sometimes even manly men need a good cry.


----------



## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> I'm so glad you didn't hold it in. Sometimes even manly men need a good cry.


Yes, so true.

Last week I had one of the best, if not THE best, getaways ever. But tbh this was a cloud that hung over everything. GF was so understanding and supportive, we talked a lot about it and the "what ifs". Now it's done. I can finally say that I have moved on and it feels great!


----------



## bandit.45

I'm happy for you Cromer. 

Let your kids know.


----------



## Cromer

bandit.45 said:


> I'm happy for you Cromer.
> 
> Let your kids know.


Thanks! I let them know, first thing. DD2 cried hard. A few minutes ago DD1 called and said that her sister called XWW and cursed her out for making them go through it. I wasn't surprised, DD2 was upset. It seems that was the first XWW heard about the tests. DD1 told me that her mother is in full-on, crazy woman meltdown mode. FB deactivated. New cell phone number later today. Changing email too.

I just need to keep repeating "I don't have to deal with drama, I don't have to deal with drama..."


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> Thanks! I let them know, first thing. DD2 cried hard. A few minutes ago DD1 called and said that her sister called XWW and cursed her out for making them go through it. I wasn't surprised, DD2 was upset. It seems that was the first XWW heard about the tests. DD1 told me that her mother is in full-on, crazy woman meltdown mode. FB deactivated. New cell phone number later today. Changing email too.
> 
> I just need to keep repeating "I don't have to deal with drama, I don't have to deal with drama..."


You may have to deal with some of the drama, but you don't have to get sucked into it. You don't have to answer the fool according to her folly. You can rise above, like you have been. You are doing a great job. 

The greatest thing is being there for your kids. Your attitude with them. Your loving acceptance and affirmation of them is building an ever stronger foundation that will continue to build on as the foundation gains in strength. I'm sure you knew it was good before, but now that foundational security your kids always had with you has grown even this late in your parenting journey.

It is so good to see a man do for his kids what you are doing. They need you now more than ever as they are dealing with their mother's breakdown. You clearly have their backs and they know it.

Your second daughter's response to her mother may be harsh, but it is important for her to be able to strongly express her anger and to direct it at the correct target. Now I hope that she can forgive her mother and not hold onto that bitterness in her heart, as it will only poison her and create problems in her future.


----------



## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> You may have to deal with some of the drama, but you don't have to get sucked into it. You don't have to answer the fool according to her folly. You can rise above, like you have been. You are doing a great job.
> 
> The greatest thing is being there for your kids. Your attitude with them. Your loving acceptance and affirmation of them is building an ever stronger foundation that will continue to build on as the foundation gains in strength. I'm sure you knew it was good before, but now that foundational security your kids always had with you has grown even this late in your parenting journey.
> 
> It is so good to see a man do for his kids what you are doing. They need you now more than ever as they are dealing with their mother's breakdown. You clearly have their backs and they know it.
> 
> Your second daughter's response to her mother may be harsh, but it is important for her to be able to strongly express her anger and to direct it at the correct target. Now I hope that she can forgive her mother and not hold onto that bitterness in her heart, as it will only poison her and create problems in her future.


Dealing with some of the drama vs getting sucked into it. A very important distinction, thank you. 

Ok, XWW's spin on this is that she told me that they were mine, that she was telling the truth, and had no reason to lie. She's telling them that it wasn't her, but me who put them through it to hurt her. Go figure. DD1 and DD2 don't buy that reasoning for one second. DS3, I have no idea what he's thinking other than he doesn't want to talk to her. My phone is blowing up. If it's not one of the kids I'm not answering.

I've always been close with my kids but you are right, this has been a next-level bonding experience in a very sad and awkward sorta way.


----------



## Malaise

Cromer said:


> Dealing with some of the drama vs getting sucked into it. A very important distinction, thank you.
> 
> Ok, XWW's spin on this is that she told me that they were mine, that she was telling the truth, and had no reason to lie. She's telling them that it wasn't her, but me who put them through it to hurt her. Go figure. *DD1 and DD2 don't buy that reasoning for one second. * DS3, I have no idea what he's thinking other than he doesn't want to talk to her. My phone is blowing up. If it's not one of the kids I'm not answering.
> 
> I've always been close with my kids but you are right, this has been a next-level bonding experience in a very sad and awkward sorta way.


Because they aren't stupid.


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> I've always been close with my kids but you are right, this has been a next-level bonding experience in a very sad and awkward sorta way.


That's how the deepest bonding happens, through the hard times. Nothing is real until it is tested. Your love and commitment to your children as individuals has been severely challenged. Rather than being self-focused on the traumatic information you received, you focused on making sure that each of your children knows that they are your children no matter what and that you love them with all your heart. You proved it to them when you could have gone another way. That is how deep bonding occurs.

Their trust and security in you and their relationships with you just went up on the scale. Unfortunately for them, their relationship with their mother will never be the same. She hit them at the foundation of who they are and where they belong. That's not easy to overcome for someone who is healthy, but impossible when their mother is a wreck. They will be still be able to grow through this and will seek your direction through this crazy maze. You are setting a good example.


----------



## Cromer

Malaise said:


> Because they aren't stupid.


Exactly. Also, all they have seen from me is treating their mother with respect, giving her a fair settlement, and going out of my way not to come between them and their mother. It paid off big time today. She's got to fix this, not me or the kids. She's just not in a state of mind to do it right now.


----------



## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> Unfortunately for them, their relationship with their mother will never be the same. She hit them at the foundation of who they are and where they belong. That's not easy to overcome for someone who is healthy, but impossible when their mother is a wreck. They will be still be able to grow through this and will seek your direction through this crazy maze. You are setting a good example.


When this all started, my oldest sensed right from the start there was a lot more to the story. She didn't buy the whole "we just grew apart" line and she suspected that her mother was the issue. As XWW started losing it, the more DD1 pieced things together. She's in the know about everything now, but even before finding it all out she put the divorce squarely on her mother. So do the other kids. It's true though, she is the one who blew up or marriage. When I look back to this time last year, I thought that I was the one lighting the fuse.

It would have been so easy to sabotage XWW's relationship with them, but that was the last thing I wanted. Sadly, she's done quite well doing it all on her own. Mentally she is so far removed from having the capacity to fix it, I'm not sure she can in the foreseeable future. Maybe never.

Just think, if we'd had any kind of sex life at all over the last ten years of our marriage, I'd still be married to hidden crazy. Geez.


----------



## GusPolinski

Cromer said:


> Dealing with some of the drama vs getting sucked into it. A very important distinction, thank you.
> 
> Ok, *XWW's spin on this is that she told me that they were mine, that she was telling the truth, and had no reason to lie. She's telling them that it wasn't her, but me who put them through it to hurt her. Go figure.* DD1 and DD2 don't buy that reasoning for one second. DS3, I have no idea what he's thinking other than he doesn't want to talk to her. My phone is blowing up. If it's not one of the kids I'm not answering.
> 
> I've always been close with my kids but you are right, this has been a next-level bonding experience in a very sad and awkward sorta way.


To quote Mrs. Gus...

“*****es be crazy.”


----------



## Cromer

Holy crap. Just got this from DD2: "Dad, got appt with USMC recruiter tomorrow, will call later." I am NOT ready for that conversation right now.

ETA: She just texted "j/k got you!!"

It's dangerous being on TAM real-time LOL.


----------



## Cromer

Curse of Millhaven said:


> Hello! I’ve read most of this thread (rollercoaster!) and am not really an advice giver or taker, but wanted to share that even though I’m a stranger to you… I’m proud of you. Knowing that there are men (and women!) out there like you gives me hope in humanity (not an easy feat!)
> 
> You seem like an amazing father, loyal loving partner, and upstanding quality gentleman. You’re an ideal embodiment of integrity, honor, and strength. In other words, I think you’re aces!
> 
> One of my favorite poems, Loss and Gain by Longfellow, has always helped me persevere and given me hope when I need it most, especially the last two lines…”Defeat may be victory in disguise; The lowest ebb is the turn of the tide”.
> 
> Your tide has turned for the better, dear sir.
> 
> May the stars always align for you, the heavens light your way, and peace, safety, and contentment be yours. Continued strength to you and your children.


Thank you for your kind words. Yes, the tide has turned!


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> Holy crap. Just got this from DD2: "Dad, got appt with USMC recruiter tomorrow, will call later." I am NOT ready for that conversation right now.
> 
> ETA: She just texted "j/k got you!!"
> 
> It's dangerous being on TAM real-time LOL.


For all the crazy that your ex is, and the terrible things she did to you, at least she helped raise good kids. For that alone I hope she gets better one day. Maybe not find love again but at least is sane. 

Glad that they're yours too.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> For all the crazy that your ex is, and the terrible things she did to you, at least she helped raise good kids. For that alone I hope she gets better one day. Maybe not find love again but at least is sane.
> 
> Glad that yours too.


 @sokillme that's what's been so hard about all of this. We do have GREAT kids. So many people I know have struggled with their children, but we are 3 for 3 in the kid department (so far). I was gone so much, and it's hard for me to say that she was a horrible mother for what she did to me. She could've neglected them, or abused them, or not loved them, ignored them, etc. but none of that is the case.

What I resent is the position she's put them in as adults, having to deal with all of this crap. For the life of me, how did she think this wouldn't blow up on her someday? They are angry with her for what she did to me and our family, and no amount of spin from her is going to change their minds. That's what's driving her nuts right now. She never thought about how her selfishness was going to affect them, and possibly taint her relationship with them forever? I thank God that they have the basics of a great upbringing to deal with it in a healthy way. DD2 was really upset today and cursed out her mother, but then a few hours later pranked her dad about it. I take that as healthy.

All of them have lost respect for their mother, and I worry most about how it will affect relationships in DD2's and DS3's lives. But maybe not. DS3 has a GF and he's talked a lot with me about it. DD1's H is a good, hardworking man who treats her with love and respect. DD1 told me after she said yes to marrying him (he asked me first, good boy) that I was her standard, so to her, her choice felt right.

One of the things that the GF is swooning over is my relationship with my kids. She adores them. She's said several times that even though she despises her XWH, she wished that he was the father that I am with my kids. That is the greatest compliment ever. I've gotta say after this last week, I am really into her and the feeling appears to be mutual.

Probably the biggest result from today is that I realized that I am almost completely ambivalent about the XWW. I feel nothing honestly. Sure, if she did something stupid I'd be upset for my kids' sake and sorry for her as a human being, but for me personally, I'm done. After having to tell my kids that they were really mine after having to do a DNA test, I've come to the conclusion *screw the b*#&h, she's got what she deserves." I'd never tell my kids that though.

GF is coming over tomorrow after work and spending the week here. I am so looking forward to it, I can't tell you how much.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> @sokillme that's what's been so hard about all of this. We do have GREAT kids. So many people I know have struggled with their children, but we are 3 for 3 in the kid department (so far). I was gone so much, and it's hard for me to say that she was a horrible mother for what she did to me. She could've neglected them, or abused them, or not loved them, ignored them, etc. but none of that is the case.
> 
> What I resent is the position she's put them in as adults, having to deal with all of this crap. For the life of me, how did she think this wouldn't blow up on her someday? They are angry with her for what she did to me and our family, and no amount of spin from her is going to change their minds. That's what's driving her nuts right now. She never thought about how her selfishness was going to affect them, and possibly taint her relationship with them forever? I thank God that they have the basics of a great upbringing to deal with it in a healthy way. DD2 was really upset today and cursed out her mother, but then a few hours later pranked her dad about it. I take that as healthy.
> 
> All of them have lost respect for their mother, and I worry most about how it will affect relationships in DD2's and DS3's lives. But maybe not. DS3 has a GF and he's talked a lot with me about it. DD1's H is a good, hardworking man who treats her with love and respect. DD1 told me after she said yes to marrying him (he asked me first, good boy) that I was her standard, so to her, her choice felt right.
> 
> One of the things that the GF is swooning over is my relationship with my kids. She adores them. She's said several times that even though she despises her XWH, she wished that he was the father that I am with my kids. That is the greatest compliment ever. I've gotta say after this last week, I am really into her and the feeling appears to be mutual.
> 
> Probably the biggest result from today is that I realized that I am almost completely ambivalent about the XWW. I feel nothing honestly. Sure, if she did something stupid I'd be upset for my kids' sake and sorry for her as a human being, but for me personally, I'm done. After having to tell my kids that they were really mine after having to do a DNA test, I've come to the conclusion *screw the b*#&h, she's got what she deserves." I'd never tell my kids that though.
> 
> GF is coming over tomorrow after work and spending the week here. I am so looking forward to it, I can't tell you how much.


Well your kids will get over it. What she did sucks but she didn't actively do it to them. My Dad cheated on my Mom, left us though I saw him 3 days a week and then cheated on his long term GF years later. I am still close to him, he was just a ****ty partner to the women in his life, but he was good to me. I got over it. I actually think it was a blessing in some ways we would never have been so close if they had stayed married. It was different also because he wasn't a phony. He cheated, told my Mom and left. Once your wife stabilizes if she is truly repentant, not this hysterical bull**** that she is doing, then they will forgive her and life will go on. Although she may just have a personality disorder and if that is the case all bets are off. 

One thing is I hope to God none of your kids is cheated on, as that will be hard for all of you. That kind of crystallized my opinion of my Dad on that when it happened to me. It also crystallized my determination never to cheat on anyone also. I think it is different when it's your Mom though. I was never as emotionally close to my Dad, that would have made it much worse. You should talk to them about that and cheating in general. For some like me it makes you determined never to do it. But for others it normalizes it in some ways too. Even those who say they would never do it. It's like since it is already a part of their life they are not as afraid of it. 

As for your ex, she is dealing with the consequences of her actions. That's life. Like I said yesterday I suspect this is the first time she has ever had to face consequences. That is a hard thing to learn at the beginning of the second part of your life. I also suspect when you marry this new lady your wife is really going to feel it, at that point she will know there is no chance. (Yeah I know, but I predicted it about 20 pages ago and I am sticking with it, I have been right about everything else so far.) 

I honestly think this lady is your reward for being faithful like you were, you are hers too. You really have had it better then a lot of people considering.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> Well your kids will get over it. What she did sucks but she didn't actively do it to them.
> *
> This is all so raw to them, and I am sure you're right. It's just all of this hit so quickly over the past year, and especially the last few months. We need to think about the long game here. Yours is a great perspective to have right now.*
> 
> One thing is I hope to God none of your kids is cheated on, as that will be hard for all of you. You should talk to them about that and cheating in general.
> 
> *I have been thinking about this actually.*
> 
> As for your ex, she is dealing with the consequences of her actions. That's life. Like I said yesterday I suspect this is the first time she has ever had to face consequences.
> 
> *You nailed this. I spent so much of my adult life shielding her from consequences. I was her White Knight and thought that was part of my job as her husband. She doesn't have one now and that has to be part of her issue.*
> 
> That is a hard thing to learn at the beginning of the second part of your life. I also suspect when you marry this new lady your wife is really going to feel it, at that point she will know there is no chance. (Yeah I know, but I predicted it about 20 pages ago and I am sticking with it, I have been right about everything else so far.)
> 
> *Yeah, I saw your prediction and DD1 is saying the same. We'll see but right now I'm both p'whipped and admiring someone who is an amazing accomplished woman who actually wants me. Go figure.*
> 
> I honestly think this lady is your reward for being faithful like you were, you are hers too. You really have had it better then a lot of people considering.
> 
> *It's not lost on me. I consider myself blessed beyond belief.*


----------



## Cromer

I hesitate to post this, but XWW was admitted for inpatient treatment late last night. I don't have any details other than where she is and that physically she is OK. Her brother texted me and is the one who took her. DD1 is making the trip to see her. Right now I'm planning to stay out of it. Another day on the crazy train for my kids. What a thing to wake up to. Damn.


----------



## farsidejunky

Cromer said:


> They are all mine. Lord thank you Jesus.




I'm very happy to hear this, brother.


----------



## Elizabeth001

Cromer said:


> I hesitate to post this, but XWW was admitted for inpatient treatment late last night. I don't have any details other than where she is and that physically she is OK. Her brother texted me and is the one who took her. DD1 is making the trip to see her. Right now I'm planning to stay out of it. Another day on the crazy train for my kids. What a thing to wake up to. Damn.




Saw that one coming. She needs help. From professionals. This is probably a good thing. Support your kids but stay out of it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> I hesitate to post this, but XWW was admitted for inpatient treatment late last night. I don't have any details other than where she is and that physically she is OK. Her brother texted me and is the one who took her. DD1 is making the trip to see her. Right now I'm planning to stay out of it. Another day on the crazy train for my kids. What a thing to wake up to. Damn.


She has support from her brother, so that's good. I think you have a good approach in terms of being there for the kids, but staying away from her.

If you are concerned about posting certain things, you could have this thread moved to Private. I think you said before you didn't want to do that, so you could edit your post out and start a new thread in the Private section and link it back to this one in the OP so people can read this thread if they want to catch up.


----------



## Taxman

Cromer
What she did has hit her between the eyes. She was always shielded from reality by you. You were her knight in shining armor. Too bad that she chose to betray that for a feeling of a little strange dlck between her legs. Now, she has nobody in her corner. She pushed or betrayed them out of her corner. Now, not even her kids are in a position to forgive. All she sees is you happy with another woman, and her children discovering her despicable secrets. It would be hard to come to the conclusion that your actions have made you look lower than slime to those whose opinions matter most.

Sir, not your circus, not your monkeys. And eventually, she will come to understand that her actions have put you firmly on plain of indifference.


----------



## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> She has support from her brother, so that's good. I think you have a good approach in terms of being there for the kids, but staying away from her.
> 
> *If you are concerned about posting certain things, you could have this thread moved to Private.* I think you said before you didn't want to do that, so you could edit your post out and start a new thread in the Private section and link it back to this one in the OP so people can read this thread if they want to catch up.


That's a good idea and may do that. Just spoke to my oldest and she's rattled, which isn't like her. What a mess.


----------



## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> That's a good idea and may do that. Just spoke to my oldest and she's rattled, which isn't like her. What a mess.


She just visited her mother in a mental ward. That is a difficult situation. My father had a brain injury which caused him to have some serious mental problems. It is really awful to see your parent in such a situation, plus I'm sure as the eldest she feels responsible. I know I did.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> That's a good idea and may do that. Just spoke to my oldest and she's rattled, which isn't like her. What a mess.


What is the status?


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> What is the status?


I posted in the private forum.


----------



## Cynthia

New thread link: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/415794-post-divorce-issues.html


----------



## Satya

Cromer said:


> I hesitate to post this, but XWW was admitted for inpatient treatment late last night. I don't have any details other than where she is and that physically she is OK. Her brother texted me and is the one who took her. DD1 is making the trip to see her. Right now I'm planning to stay out of it. Another day on the crazy train for my kids. What a thing to wake up to. Damn.


Carry on.


----------



## Cromer

Well, some good news today. OM2 is out of the house on his arse. BS2 was very grateful for the help. She is cleaning him out and offered to buy me an expensive dinner if I'm ever in the DC area LOL.


----------



## skerzoid

Cromer said:


> Well, some good news today. OM2 is out of the house on his arse. BS2 was very grateful for the help. She is cleaning him out and offered to buy me an expensive dinner if I'm ever in the DC area LOL.


As Lincoln quoted the Bible in his last Inaugural Address, "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."

God moves in his own time his wonders to perform.


----------



## Cromer

skerzoid said:


> As Lincoln quoted the Bible in his last Inaugural Address, "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."
> 
> God moves in his own time his wonders to perform.


She was straight stone cold about it. Scary-like. She said she was going to enjoy spending his alimony across Europe and entertaining Italian boy-toys. I laughed my arse off at the things she was saying. It's clear she's been looking to pull the trigger for a while. She's mid-50's so lots of time left to spend his money!


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Cromer said:


> She was straight stone cold about it. Scary-like. She said she was going to enjoy spending his alimony across Europe and entertaining Italian boy-toys. I laughed my arse off at the things she was saying. It's clear she's been looking to pull the trigger for a while. She's mid-50's so lots of time left to spend his money!


I love this!!


----------



## sokillme

Did you out the last guy yet. You need to. People should know what kind of person they are dealing with. Here is a supposed "Church going" young man who was messing around with a deployed soldiers wife. That kind of dishonor should not be covered up, it should be lived with every day. Let him make amends for his choices. You might also want to mention how it broke up your marriage and put your wife in a mental hospital. Let his wife know what kind of man she married.

Besides that maybe he will be like the middle guy and this may be just another in a long line but knowing this may put her over the edge to seek freedom.


----------



## Cromer

/Rant on

Couldn't sleep. Had a few drinks. Alone at home. So here I am thinking about my life. I just don't get it. You know, I see so many threads here from men who say something like "I wasn't the best husband and my wife is leaving". Well hell, I was a good husband and look what it got me. Not perfect, of course. But I did my best.

The greatest joy I had in my life was spending time with my wife and family. Not partying. Not golfing. No chasing women in a bar. I am a family man, through and through. This whole situation has been devastating. Sure, I made the decision to leave, but I was conflicted about it because I thought it was selfish. Of course, when the truth came out I realized that I was doing what needed to be done for my health and well being. I still feel like I failed as a husband.

When I was away, my family kept me going. I couldn't wait to get home from work. I made every game, tournament, recital, play, etc. that I could. I doted on my wife. I hear the "if he only did housework" trope so many times, but I did even though my wife was a SAHM. The sparkly clean bathrooms and ovens over the years are my testament. When my wife had our first, I did all of the night feedings because it was such a difficult recovery for her. I would go days with little sleep, then go to work, so she could rest. There were times when I came home and she'd say "they are yours", and I tried to give her a break and did dinner, supervise homework, and *whatever else needed to be done* to take care of the kids. Maybe I was too much of a family man. What if I'd treated my wife like crap over the years? Maybe she'd have respected me more than she did.

I'm not complaining. Through all of this, I realize that the reason I have such a great relationship with my kids is due to the investment that I made in their lives. They are my life. But you know, if I could go back in time, the only reason I'd marry is because of my kids. There is no point in getting married anymore. It means nothing. The governmental and social support system for marriage is all but gone.

My advice to young people today? Don't do it, never marry. If you want kids, have them then pay child support and be a 50/50 dad. This is what's all the rage and with all of the strong, independent, women out there who don't need a man, it's the way to go (sarcasm). For my son, avoid marriage and the world of pain and loss of net worth it will inevitably cause. Although DD1 is married, DD2 and DS3 get this now after what they've seen. Thank God.

What a mess.

/Rant off


----------



## 2arebetter

Cromer said:


> Couldn't sleep. Had a few drinks. Alone at home. So here I am thinking about my life. I just don't get it. You know, I see so many threads here from men who say something like "I wasn't the best husband and my wife is leaving". Well hell, I was a good husband and look what it got me. Not perfect, of course. But I did my best.
> 
> The greatest joy I had in my life was spending time with my wife and family. Not partying. Not golfing. No chasing women in a bar. I am a family man, through and through. This whole situation has been devastating. Sure, I made the decision to leave, but I was conflicted about it because I thought it was selfish. Of course, when the truth came out I realized that I was doing what needed to be done for my health and well being. I still feel like I failed as a husband.
> 
> When I was away, my family kept me going. I couldn't wait to get home from work. I made every game, tournament, recital, play, etc. that I could. I doted on my wife. I hear the "if he only did housework" trope so many times, but I did even though my wife was a SAHM. The sparkly clean bathrooms and ovens over the years are my testament. When my wife had our first, I did all of the night feedings because it was such a difficult recovery for her. I would go days with little sleep, then go to work, so she could rest. There were times when I came home and she'd say "they are yours", and I tried to give her a break and did dinner, supervise homework, and *whatever else needed to be done* to take care of the kids. Maybe I was too much of a family man. What if I'd treated my wife like crap over the years? Maybe she'd have respected me more than she did.
> 
> I'm not complaining. Through all of this, I realize that the reason I have such a great relationship with my kids is due to the investment that I made in their lives. They are my life. But you know, if I could go back in time, the only reason I'd marry is because of my kids. There is no point in getting married anymore. It means nothing. The governmental and social support system for marriage is all but gone.
> 
> My advice to young people today? Don't do it, never marry. If you want kids, have them then pay child support and be a 50/50 dad. This is what's all the rage and with all of the strong, independent, women out there who don't need a man, it's the way to go (sarcasm). For my son, avoid marriage and the world of pain and loss of net worth it will inevitably cause. Although DD1 is married, DD2 and DS3 get this now after what they've seen. Thank God.
> 
> What a mess.


I was with you 101% until your last paragraph. Maybe it's the optimist in me, but I do believe there are genuinely good people out there. I wasn't (have not been yet ) put through anything like your story. Maybe if I had been I'd change my tune too. Surround yourself with good people. I'm trying to do that more now than I ever did when I was still fighting for my marriage. I don't know if I'll ever get re-married (I'm not even divorced yet). There's still an allure to marriage with the right woman. I think you and me thought we had it all when we really didn't. Putting up with getting walked over isn't love. Always picking up the slack isn't love. Putting your needs below that of others, that are capable of reciprocating, isn't love. 

I have two DD's (ummm... children). I hope they do get married if it's their wish.


----------



## sokillme

Well your first mistake is expecting good in returned for the good you do. What in your life experience tells you that it works that way? Nothing in mine. Sometimes it does but lots of times it doesn't. You do the right thing because it is the right thing, don't expect that you are going to be rewarded for it at least not on this earth. 

Also looking at your situation I really do think your wife basically just transferred you into her parents role. SAHM and SAHD seem to do that a lot. I mean look at her reaction. She really thought she would get grounded or punished and then everything would go back to normal, just like she would have with her parents. This is why doing everything for your spouse and especially protecting them from consequence is a bad idea, even more so when you marry right out of school at a young age. Then they never grow up really. It's a dynamic that I have read on these boards over and over. Even with the SAHDs. I would never do the STH thing now long term. Maybe for a few years while the kids are young, but idle hands and all that. People need purpose and once the kids are at school sitting at home without responsibility an purpose just leads to trouble. 

Finally like I said before, I think this girlfriend of yours is both of your reward for being faithful. God couldn't work it out with your messed up spouses so he made you find each other. Which is why you saying no reason to marry is kind of iffy. Like your both church going right, so don't you believe God created the institute of marriage. Besides that not everyone's is bad. Also kids do better in a two parent household, your kids did. Now I am not saying if one has abused the other the kids can't do just fine if you separate, but it's not the ideal situation. It certainly makes it harder. Besides you are going to look like a big hypocrite when you marry this girl next year. :wink2:

Has your ex settled down at least?


----------



## Cromer

2arebetter said:


> I was with you 101% until your last paragraph. Maybe it's the optimist in me, but I do believe there are genuinely good people out there. I wasn't (have not been yet ) put through anything like your story. Maybe if I had been I'd change my tune too. Surround yourself with good people. I'm trying to do that more now than I ever did when I was still fighting for my marriage. I don't know if I'll ever get re-married (I'm not even divorced yet). *There's still an allure to marriage with the right woman.* I think you and me thought we had it all when we really didn't. Putting up with getting walked over isn't love. Always picking up the slack isn't love. Putting your needs below that of others, that are capable of reciprocating, isn't love.
> 
> I have two DD's (ummm... children). I hope they do get married if it's their wish.


How would you know she's the right woman?

My point is that marriage today isn't worth the risk. There is no consequence if your wife is a cheating [email protected] If you leave, she gets half of your net worth and alimony. You know, breaking a rental agreement carries legal weight but breaking a marital agreement? Nada. It makes no sense to me. The wronged party get screwed.

When I got married, I was young and stupid and had no idea. Today, I am making damn sure that DD2 and DS3 are fully informed about the consequences to their lives. DS3 at this point is dead set against ever getting married, and frankly I have supported it. There is no advantage for a man to marry today. Nothing. The laws and courts are against him. Marriage only carries disadvantages and loss for a man. Sex is easy to get. MGTOW is something I've recently seen, and it makes so much sense.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> Well your first mistake is expecting good in returned for the good you do. What in your life experience tells you that it works that way? Nothing in mine. Sometimes it does but lots of times it doesn't. You do the right thing because it is the right thing, don't expect that you are going to be rewarded for it at least not on this earth.
> 
> Also looking at your situation I really do think your wife basically just transferred you into her parents role. SAHM and SAHD seem to do that a lot. I mean look at her reaction. She really thought she would get grounded or punished and then everything would go back to normal, just like she would have with her parents. This is why doing everything for your spouse and especially protecting them from consequence is a bad idea, even more so when you marry right out of school at a young age. Then they never grow up really. It's a dynamic that I have read on these boards over and over. Even with the SAHDs. I would never do the STH thing now long term. Maybe for a few years while the kids are young, but idle hands and all that. People need purpose and once the kids are at school sitting at home without responsibility an purpose just leads to trouble.
> 
> Finally like I said before, I think this girlfriend of yours is both of your reward for being faithful. God couldn't work it out with your messed up spouses so he made you find each other. Which is why you saying no reason to marry is kind of iffy. Like your both church going right, so don't you believe God created the institute of marriage. Besides that not everyone's is bad. Also kids do better in a two parent household, your kids did. Now I am not saying if one has abused the other the kids can't do just fine if you separate, but it's not the ideal situation. It certainly makes it harder. Besides you are going to look like a big hypocrite when you marry this girl next year. :wink2:
> 
> Has your ex settled down at least?


Ok, I'm liquored up so I'm ranting. But ya, I fully expect you all to call me out when I get married to the GF LOL. I understand about the expectation of good being returned. I'm just saying that you can do everything right and still get f'd.

My ex is still in inpatient treatment. Her psych asked to meet with me on Tues and I agreed. She won't be there, otherwise, I wouldn't go. The kids have all agreed to see her next week. It took some doing but after all, dad knows best :wink2:. Seriously though she needs them right now.


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## Chuck71

Cromer said:


> /Rant on
> 
> What a mess.
> 
> /Rant off


Took me longer than expected to catch-up. I swear I am so sorry you found out about the other three guys. But high 5^ for out'ing the ones you have so far. You played by the rules, did as you are told, used sound judgement, and yet you are here. Was it like this when my grandparents met and M (early 1930s) or did they just know how to better communicate? Or did they suffer in silence?

I can't say my grand mother did.... my pawpaw died in '78.... exactly ten years later granny was near death. I was 16... my mom and her sisters were rotating watching her. They asked me to look in, see if she's ok..... there she was clutching a picture of her and pawpaw... talking to him, crying, saying she can't wait to be with him again. THAT is what I call.... true love. Is that now lost on humanity with "all its novelties" to attract all our attentions from.... what we should be paying attention to?

I remember a friend telling me...he was much older but a stoner, I guess I was 17.... -treat a wh0re like a queen, a queen like a wh0re- .... I looked at him "WTF, you're serious?" Sad part... the stoner was right on several levels. Yes Cromer you will ask yourself.... WTF did I do, for this to end up xxxxx.... You can't answer it, neither can she. But humans love excitement, and sometimes no matter the cost.

I never had children with my XW of 15 years. I can get into why but, that would be up to you, your thread. But I am in full agreement about... there is no real reason to get married. My one exception... if you want to start a family. Other than that.... leave a will..... a solid will carries clout.

But I'm from the old school... once M, always M, fight it out. Can't fight when you're getting sniper fire from your back. Your XW sounds like she was a great mom, provided stable home, three top tier children. You are a winner.... but I do admit, you lost out on the growing old together... watching your grandkids run up to you as fast as their little legs can move them... followed by the children you and her raised. Priceless..... pure priceless.

I want children.... g/f does too. She understands I have no desire to get M until children are in the equation. Been there before, got the t-shirt, worked in advertising for them. Will I consider it.... yes I will. If the government did not stick their nose where it did not belong, I might not feel this way. In my D.... I got off better than 99% of the guys did.... unless they were M to A list actress. She got nothing, I got some of her debt. What I read here... frightens me. Guys being took to the cleaners by a WW... he caught cheating.

What type of precedence are we setting forth for out next generations? Who needs to change, us or the government? Social media, instant gratification, OTC pills to make you "feel good," no accountability, etc... it's here and by God it's here to stay. Sad... scary too. At least it is for me. But I'm just a country guy in the Smokies.... WTF do I know?

I just try to hold tight to what I believe in and scoff at the outside world. The outside world does not pay my mortgage, lights, water, etc.... They wouldn't be making deviled eggs at 1AM because I crave them after sex, or a gentle hand / touch when the world smacks you right in the mouth. Maybe it is the outside world and not as much.....us? 

Most doomed M we read about here were....once solid. What happened? Who knows?


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## farsidejunky

Cromer:

You have found your way back to the victim chair. You ever notice how alcoholic seems to do that "for" us?

The world doesn't owe any of us anything, brother. In fact, doing for others in hopes they will do it for you is textbook "nice guy".


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## Edmund

Cromer said:


> How would you know she's the right woman?
> 
> My point is that marriage today isn't worth the risk. There is no consequence if your wife is a cheating [email protected] If you leave, she gets half of your net worth and alimony. You know, breaking a rental agreement carries legal weight but breaking a marital agreement? Nada. It makes no sense to me. The wronged party get screwed.
> 
> When I got married, I was young and stupid and had no idea. Today, I am making damn sure that DD2 and DS3 are fully informed about the consequences to their lives. DS3 at this point is dead set against ever getting married, and frankly I have supported it. There is no advantage for a man to marry today. Nothing. The laws and courts are against him. Marriage only carries disadvantages and loss for a man. Sex is easy to get. MGTOW is something I've recently seen, and it makes so much sense.



Unfortunately, you are correct, Cramer. The laws and courts have changed over the last several decades to try to protect women and children but the pendulum has swung too far. It is a result of radical feminism, now before everyone flames me, I and everyone really, supports common sense like equal pay for equal work. But the idea of women abandoning their natural feminine nature in order to be masculine, dress and act like men, hold jobs that require characteristics of alpha males. And lately, all this crap about “gender identity”. This country is really psychologically sick. The new “cat” character in Madam Secretary makes me want to hurl. The idea that people can choose to be a different gender than they are biologically or that there are genders along a spectrum not just male and female. Sorry I just don’t get it.

Back when we got married, late 1970s, we couldn’t have seen all this in the future. Our marriage ideas based on our parents, the 1950s model, leave it to beaver type family. But as boomers, we were going to “fix” the problems of our parents we perceived, sexist attitudes, lack of opportunities, roles. So we got married. Almost 40 years for me now.

Just before my brother got married, in the 1980s, he asked me, should he marry? I said, it is a mistake to get married, but everyone does it anyway. If a young man today were to ask me that question, I would be right there with you saying no. Have a ceremony, sign a private contract (including a prenup), let it be known you are committed to each other, but stay away from the governmental involvement. The governments went to no fault, and no longer consider adultery as a reason to penalize the cheater, and there is no longer social stigma.

Cromer, I think you should stay away from drinking. Your attitude changes when you do, and it shows up in you writing. You are a decent and honorable guy. I think that it is killing you that your XW is suffering in a mental hospital. I think you may be feeling guilty for not rescuing her or helping her somehow. You once loved her and you still care.

Your XW could not see the future either, back when she cheated. If she had any idea things were going to end up like they did now, she probably never would have done what she did. There’s a country song, I wish I didn’t know now what I didn’t know then. Something like that. Bad choices have consequences.

I hope your new GF will stick with you through these times, I am sure she realizes the trauma you have had and that it will haunt you going forward.

Wish you peace, sir.


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## Cromer

farsidejunky said:


> Cromer:
> 
> You have found your way back to the victim chair. You ever notice how alcoholic seems to do that "for" us?
> 
> The world doesn't owe any of us anything, brother. In fact, doing for others in hopes they will do it for you is textbook "nice guy".


Oh, believe me, I get this. I was more ranting than anything. If I remember right, Clint Eastwood in "Unforgiven" said "Deserves ain't got nothing to do with it" just before he capped Gene Hackman. I've not forgotten that and have said that often.

I don't miss my ex. What I miss is the family. When all is said and done, whether one gets to have and sustain a family is out of their control. 

It's all good.


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## Cromer

Edmund said:


> Unfortunately, you are correct, Cramer. The laws and courts have changed over the last several decades to try to protect women and children but the pendulum has swung too far. It is a result of radical feminism, now before everyone flames me, I and everyone really, supports common sense like equal pay for equal work. But the idea of women abandoning their natural feminine nature in order to be masculine, dress and act like men, hold jobs that require characteristics of alpha males. And lately, all this crap about “gender identity”. This country is really psychologically sick. The new “cat” character in Madam Secretary makes me want to hurl. The idea that people can choose to be a different gender than they are biologically or that there are genders along a spectrum not just male and female. Sorry I just don’t get it.
> 
> Back when we got married, late 1970s, we couldn’t have seen all this in the future. Our marriage ideas based on our parents, the 1950s model, leave it to beaver type family. But as boomers, we were going to “fix” the problems of our parents we perceived, sexist attitudes, lack of opportunities, roles. So we got married. Almost 40 years for me now.
> 
> Just before my brother got married, in the 1980s, he asked me, should he marry? I said, it is a mistake to get married, but everyone does it anyway. If a young man today were to ask me that question, I would be right there with you saying no. Have a ceremony, sign a private contract (including a prenup), let it be known you are committed to each other, but stay away from the governmental involvement. The governments went to no fault, and no longer consider adultery as a reason to penalize the cheater, and there is no longer social stigma.
> 
> *Cromer, I think you should stay away from drinking.* Your attitude changes when you do, and it shows up in you writing. You are a decent and honorable guy. I think that it is killing you that your XW is suffering in a mental hospital. I think you may be feeling guilty for not rescuing her or helping her somehow. You once loved her and you still care.
> 
> Your XW could not see the future either, back when she cheated. If she had any idea things were going to end up like they did now, she probably never would have done what she did. There’s a country song, I wish I didn’t know now what I didn’t know then. Something like that. Bad choices have consequences.
> 
> I hope your new GF will stick with you through these times, I am sure she realizes the trauma you have had and that it will haunt you going forward.
> 
> Wish you peace, sir.


I don't drink that much, but yesterday after working on a project all day, I had some wine with dinner and when the GF left had some more. Wine + dehydration = not good. But yes, I am 99% there but not 100% there when it comes to dealing with the recent past.

There is a reason millennials aren't marrying, and the consequences for future generations are not good. The one thing the people don't ever talk about is the real reason for so much of our society's breakdown. The breakdown of the family. Broken families and single women are a political advantage for some, and many people see advocating strong families as anti-women, so what you have is this mess of government influence in marriage that screws men and children.

In my discussion with DS3, I told him there is nothing that marriage will give him legally that he can't do through other means. To get married is to set yourself up for failure, disappointment, and the government telling you how you have to live your life. I'm not sure that I could ever trust anyone enough to get married again, despite my awesome GF.


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## PDXGuardsman

Yeswecan said:


> I concur. However, this poor woman is about to get hit by a oncoming freight train that is steaming at her back. OP appears to be basking in the glow of planning without his W knowledge.




I love how people think this guy is somehow basking in the glow of his plans...I’ve read so many posts on this site suggesting divorce while providing advice on how one should plan for it in secret to ensure everything is ready and assets are protected...here we have a great example of someone who is actually thoughtful about their exit...needing advice on how to break it to his wife...I hope he follows up on this site so we know how it worked...Goos luck to you my friend...a 10 year sexless marriage sounds awful...it sounds like you took one for the team to ensure your children were provided for...clearly the grass is not guaranteed to be greener on the other side...but resentments are hard to live with. Please keep us informed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elizabeth001

Well unless you are planning on having more children or are very religious, what would be the point of getting married again? The new generation has the right idea in my opinion. Why invite the government into your relationship? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Openminded

Marriage works for some. For many others it does not. I wanted my very long marriage to work but it really never did. I stuck with it for decades because I believed in marriage. Now I don't believe in it for me but I acknowledge it can work for some. I wanted to be one but I wasn't. You weren't. For whatever reason, many just aren't. 

Losses take time to recover from. Alcohol doesn't help.


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## Edmund

PDXGuardsman said:


> I love how people think this guy is somehow basking in the glow of his plans...I’ve read so many posts on this site suggesting divorce while providing advice on how one should plan for it in secret to ensure everything is ready and assets are protected...here we have a great example of someone who is actually thoughtful about their exit...needing advice on how to break it to his wife...I hope he follows up on this site so we know how it worked...Goos luck to you my friend...a 10 year sexless marriage sounds awful...it sounds like you took one for the team to ensure your children were provided for...clearly the grass is not guaranteed to be greener on the other side...but resentments are hard to live with. Please keep us informed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Suggestion: Read the whole thread first rather than reply to the first few posts.


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> In my discussion with DS3, I told him there is nothing that marriage will give him legally that he can't do through other means. To get married is to set yourself up for failure, disappointment, and the government telling you how you have to live your life. I'm not sure that I could ever trust anyone enough to get married again, despite my awesome GF.


Yeah this is bull****. Men live longer when married for starters. Not every marriage is bad, and not every man is going to be making the most money in the relationship moving forward so half of everything may actually be in his benefit. This ain't the 20th century anymore. Some marriage is bad some is good. It's all in who you pick. Unfortunately you married an *******. You didn't know it. Maybe she even grew into being one because she didn't had the wrong people around her and she was never forced to grow up. But that is you, lots and lots of people keep there word even if their marriage is not the best. That is both men and women. 

Marriage is not the problem it's the people.


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## sokillme

double post.


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## sokillme

PDXGuardsman said:


> I love how people think this guy is somehow basking in the glow of his plans...I’ve read so many posts on this site suggesting divorce while providing advice on how one should plan for it in secret to ensure everything is ready and assets are protected...here we have a great example of someone who is actually thoughtful about their exit...needing advice on how to break it to his wife...I hope he follows up on this site so we know how it worked...Goos luck to you my friend...a 10 year sexless marriage sounds awful...it sounds like you took one for the team to ensure your children were provided for...clearly the grass is not guaranteed to be greener on the other side...but resentments are hard to live with. Please keep us informed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hold on to your... seat my friend.


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## Satya

Cromer said:


> /Rant on
> 
> Couldn't sleep. Had a few drinks. Alone at home. So here I am thinking about my life. I just don't get it. You know, I see so many threads here from men who say something like "I wasn't the best husband and my wife is leaving". Well hell, I was a good husband and look what it got me. Not perfect, of course. But I did my best.
> 
> The greatest joy I had in my life was spending time with my wife and family. Not partying. Not golfing. No chasing women in a bar. I am a family man, through and through. This whole situation has been devastating. Sure, I made the decision to leave, but I was conflicted about it because I thought it was selfish. Of course, when the truth came out I realized that I was doing what needed to be done for my health and well being. I still feel like I failed as a husband.
> 
> When I was away, my family kept me going. I couldn't wait to get home from work. I made every game, tournament, recital, play, etc. that I could. I doted on my wife. I hear the "if he only did housework" trope so many times, but I did even though my wife was a SAHM. The sparkly clean bathrooms and ovens over the years are my testament. When my wife had our first, I did all of the night feedings because it was such a difficult recovery for her. I would go days with little sleep, then go to work, so she could rest. There were times when I came home and she'd say "they are yours", and I tried to give her a break and did dinner, supervise homework, and *whatever else needed to be done* to take care of the kids. Maybe I was too much of a family man. What if I'd treated my wife like crap over the years? Maybe she'd have respected me more than she did.
> 
> I'm not complaining. Through all of this, I realize that the reason I have such a great relationship with my kids is due to the investment that I made in their lives. They are my life. But you know, if I could go back in time, the only reason I'd marry is because of my kids. There is no point in getting married anymore. It means nothing. The governmental and social support system for marriage is all but gone.
> 
> My advice to young people today? Don't do it, never marry. If you want kids, have them then pay child support and be a 50/50 dad. This is what's all the rage and with all of the strong, independent, women out there who don't need a man, it's the way to go (sarcasm). For my son, avoid marriage and the world of pain and loss of net worth it will inevitably cause. Although DD1 is married, DD2 and DS3 get this now after what they've seen. Thank God.
> 
> What a mess.
> 
> /Rant off


You were not the problem at all.
It was your wife. She had little respect or appreciation for what you did. I don't know why, but there are PLENTY of women out there who would have appreciated a husband and father like you. Can appreciate.


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## Get Real

I am not sure if I am qualified to write right now. I do not know what divorce is like yet but I have seen friends who have gotten divorced.

From one woman's view point. It is not always the case but many times we sacrifice better paying jobs to be with the kids. And we do a lot to keep the house together. Like you, thinking that marriage is forever, and then women find themselves on the divorce arena. Totally unprepared to be on their own. I had a friend who quit her job and was very engaged with the kids. Now she is divorced and she does get whatever the judge ordered plus he pays extra for the kids after school sports and things like that. She got the house, but she is working her everything off to make it. Her lifestyle changed drastically. He was mentally abusive and she took as much as she could, therapist and all. I recently visited her and she used to have a maid, now it is easy to see the decline. She is working so hard that I hope she starts ripping some rewards soon. She does seem happy about the fact that there is noone to put her down anymore. And she makes her own decisions.

Nevertheless, she has now found herself alone and trying to date with no decent guys really our there. It is not easy to find a decent guy once you are older. The odds are just against women. And this goes for most of my divorced friends and one who is a widow.

Cromer I know you know that money does not equal happiness and it maybe the alcohol but why wish her to pay for what she did to you??. Or to get the short end of the stick. Those things have a way of working themselves out. Actually, the better she does, the better it is for the kids. A bunch of us here hope that you do well because you deserve it but when you decide to not look back, just don't. And really, she lost you. Like I said, it is really hard to find a decent guy. And none will be with her as you were. Just let go of that if I may say and focus on building a new life. Take your time. You are wiser now. You are healthy, you have some finantial stability, you have a good GF, kids that love you. And kids that will need you strong as they face their own life challenges. 

I also tend to agree with the watch the drinking. Do not put any unnecesary rocks in your backpack that could weight you down later on. Just enjoy what you have. I am not walking in your shoes so I may be off.


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## Cynthia

@Get Real makes a good point. There are few good men out there and often they are looking for younger women. I cannot imagine your ex would be able to find another man as good as you. She knows that, which is one of the reasons she is in such torment. Torment of her own making, but she has fallen into her own trap.

I know it was partly the alcohol talking, but I hope you don't give up on love and marriage. Marriage is about making someone family. I have seen a lot in my 50+ years and as I grow older I notice a lot more than I used to. Plus my own 30+ year marriage has certainly not been without its crisis. But I still believe in love and marriage. And I believe in family, especially my children and now grandchildren.

The children and grandchildren make everything worthwhile. Nothing compares to having a close, loving, deep relationship with my children and now beginning to develop that with grandchildren. It's amazing how much love our hearts can hold, yet they continue to expand. <3


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## sokillme

Get Real said:


> I am not sure if I am qualified to write right now. I do not know what divorce is like yet but I have seen friends who have gotten divorced.
> 
> From one woman's view point. It is not always the case but many times we sacrifice better paying jobs to be with the kids. And we do a lot to keep the house together. Like you, thinking that marriage is forever, and then women find themselves on the divorce arena. Totally unprepared to be on their own. I had a friend who quit her job and was very engaged with the kids. Now she is divorced and she does get whatever the judge ordered plus he pays extra for the kids after school sports and things like that. She got the house, but she is working her everything off to make it. Her lifestyle changed drastically. He was mentally abusive and she took as much as she could, therapist and all. I recently visited her and she used to have a maid, now it is easy to see the decline. She is working so hard that I hope she starts ripping some rewards soon. She does seem happy about the fact that there is noone to put her down anymore. And she makes her own decisions.
> 
> Nevertheless, she has now found herself alone and trying to date with no decent guys really our there. It is not easy to find a decent guy once you are older. The odds are just against women. And this goes for most of my divorced friends and one who is a widow.
> 
> Cromer I know you know that money does not equal happiness and it maybe the alcohol but why wish her to pay for what she did to you??. Or to get the short end of the stick. Those things have a way of working themselves out. Actually, the better she does, the better it is for the kids. A bunch of us here hope that you do well because you deserve it but when you decide to not look back, just don't. And really, she lost you. Like I said, it is really hard to find a decent guy. And none will be with her as you were. Just let go of that if I may say and focus on building a new life. Take your time. You are wiser now. You are healthy, you have some finantial stability, you have a good GF, kids that love you. And kids that will need you strong as they face their own life challenges.
> 
> I also tend to agree with the watch the drinking. Do not put any unnecesary rocks in your backpack that could weight you down later on. Just enjoy what you have. I am not walking in your shoes so I may be off.


First of all I agree with you up until a point, I DO think wives deserve half even if they didn't work for the money assuming they were faithful and contributed half to the relationship. I have never been under the impression that anything I have earned while married to my wife is 100% mine alone, so I feel she deserves half of everything. She however works as well so half of her earnings is mine too. Besides that she has been a faithful partner and helper in the life we have built. Why should she not get half. 

I have no problem with this, where that stops in my mind though is where there is cheating and that can be by either spouse. At that point my mind all bets are off. As far as Cromer goes he give her a settlement that was in the range of a million dollars or so he wrote earlier in this thread. He was more then fair and she didn't deserve it Does she deserve to go destitute, I say no because she helped raise the kids and they seem to be decent human beings. Does she deserve to never have to work again, absolutely not because she was duplicitous the entire marriage. I really wish the courts would take infidelity into account when it comes to this, or at least give the BS the ability to sue the WS for lost time and fraud. In a perfect world they would.


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## sandcastle

Get Real said:


> I am not sure if I am qualified to write right now. I do not know what divorce is like yet but I have seen friends who have gotten divorced.
> 
> From one woman's view point. It is not always the case but many times we sacrifice better paying jobs to be with the kids. And we do a lot to keep the house together. Like you, thinking that marriage is forever, and then women find themselves on the divorce arena. Totally unprepared to be on their own. I had a friend who quit her job and was very engaged with the kids. Now she is divorced and she does get whatever the judge ordered plus he pays extra for the kids after school sports and things like that. She got the house, but she is working her everything off to make it. Her lifestyle changed drastically. He was mentally abusive and she took as much as she could, therapist and all. I recently visited her and she used to have a maid, now it is easy to see the decline. She is working so hard that I hope she starts ripping some rewards soon. She does seem happy about the fact that there is noone to put her down anymore. And she makes her own decisions.
> 
> Nevertheless, she has now found herself alone and trying to date with no decent guys really our there. It is not easy to find a decent guy once you are older. The odds are just against women. And this goes for most of my divorced friends and one who is a widow.
> 
> Cromer I know you know that money does not equal happiness and it maybe the alcohol but why wish her to pay for what she did to you??. Or to get the short end of the stick. Those things have a way of working themselves out. Actually, the better she does, the better it is for the kids. A bunch of us here hope that you do well because you deserve it but when you decide to not look back, just don't. And really, she lost you. Like I said, it is really hard to find a decent guy. And none will be with her as you were. Just let go of that if I may say and focus on building a new life. Take your time. You are wiser now. You are healthy, you have some finantial stability, you have a good GF, kids that love you. And kids that will need you strong as they face their own life challenges.
> 
> I also tend to agree with the watch the drinking. Do not put any unnecesary rocks in your backpack that could weight you down later on. Just enjoy what you have. I am not walking in your shoes so I may be off.


Amazing insight and you absolutely are qualified to post. 

However- children should not be exposed to or expected to embrace the new love interest until a year has passed no matter how great the new squeeze may seem and Cromer actually whinged about the New squeeze... High school, moving in... Drama 

But- his journey - kinda like The Bachelor speeches- such an amazeball journey.


----------



## As'laDain

marriage is great when the government keeps its hands out of it. 

i personally see no advantage of getting married, outside of the sentiment.


----------



## BluesPower

Get Real said:


> I am not sure if I am qualified to write right now. I do not know what divorce is like yet but I have seen friends who have gotten divorced.
> 
> From one woman's view point. It is not always the case but many times we sacrifice better paying jobs to be with the kids. And we do a lot to keep the house together. Like you, thinking that marriage is forever, and then women find themselves on the divorce arena. Totally unprepared to be on their own. I had a friend who quit her job and was very engaged with the kids. Now she is divorced and she does get whatever the judge ordered plus he pays extra for the kids after school sports and things like that. She got the house, but she is working her everything off to make it. Her lifestyle changed drastically. He was mentally abusive and she took as much as she could, therapist and all. I recently visited her and she used to have a maid, now it is easy to see the decline. She is working so hard that I hope she starts ripping some rewards soon. She does seem happy about the fact that there is noone to put her down anymore. And she makes her own decisions.
> 
> Nevertheless, she has now found herself alone and trying to date with no decent guys really our there. It is not easy to find a decent guy once you are older. The odds are just against women. And this goes for most of my divorced friends and one who is a widow.
> 
> Cromer I know you know that money does not equal happiness and it maybe the alcohol but why wish her to pay for what she did to you??. Or to get the short end of the stick. Those things have a way of working themselves out. Actually, the better she does, the better it is for the kids. A bunch of us here hope that you do well because you deserve it but when you decide to not look back, just don't. And really, she lost you. Like I said, it is really hard to find a decent guy. And none will be with her as you were. Just let go of that if I may say and focus on building a new life. Take your time. You are wiser now. You are healthy, you have some finantial stability, you have a good GF, kids that love you. And kids that will need you strong as they face their own life challenges.
> 
> I also tend to agree with the watch the drinking. Do not put any unnecesary rocks in your backpack that could weight you down later on. Just enjoy what you have. I am not walking in your shoes so I may be off.


 @Get Real, while I understand and agree with a lot of what you say, you should also understand that the same thing happens on the male side as well. 
@Cromer gave half of his life to loving and cherishing this woman. And, even when she stopped having sex with him, he stayed, FOR 10 YEARS. And how did this woman, and many others repay that love, by having multiple affairs on him while he was out serving his country. 

Now, no matter how you slice that, that is a low excuse for a human being. I don't even know if he had all the kids tested or if they are all his. 

This OP is a far, far and away a better man than me, by like miles.

But I also gave half of my life to a woman that never loved me and lied to me for years, not about her affairs, but about her drug addiction. 

And if even a small part of him would like for her to reap some of what she sowed as punishment, can you blame him?
@Cromer, I get everything you are feeling, I have been there. But the thing is, over time, you will get over it, or at least you learn to live with it. 

Enjoy your New GF and enjoy life to the fullest, because I sure as hell am. And short of alcoholism or irresponsible drinking, man I say party on. 

And to @Get Real, not all women have a hard time finding a decent guy, my current GF found me, actually other way around, and frankly we could not be happier. But if this one goes south, and I don't think it will, but if, I will just find another one, because there are millions of beautiful loving caring women out there. 

The thing that may not be really fair for some women is that the roles in dating are reversed in our 40's and 50's. For Girls, you have to take care of yourself, you have to be good in the sack, you have to enjoy sex, and you cannot be the least bit crazy in any way. For men, the rules a little simpler. 

If you are a good looking guy, have a little money, and are good in the sack, you are a SUPER HIGH VALUE TARGET. You simply cannot sleep with all the women that want to get with you, I know, I tried. 

But the cream rises to the top, and for me New GF is it, and she is 60 BTW, 8 years older than me. Now admittedly, she looks way younger than her age, she has an absolutely rocking body (after 3 kids mind you), and while she was a little sexually inexperienced before she met me, she is an absolute dream in bed. She is AWESOME... in every way. And guys, she actually has perfect T***, I am not kidding. 

For a while, like about 4.5 seconds, I felt a little sorry for my Ex W, I mean the drugs took their toll, she lives in a rent house with roommates to pay the bills, she actually had to get a job, and on and on. Yeah, that lasted less than 5 seconds. Now, I feel nothing for her. She wasted exactly one half of my life. I raised the kids. I was the sole bread winner. I took care of her when she was "Sick". I am the one that did everything to take care of my family. 

The fact that she is suffering now and I am actually living in a dream filled, party filled, sex filled life... Well tough S***, she is getting what she deserves and it only cost me a $100,000. It was worth 10 times that. 
@Cromer, man you will be OK, the best revenge is living well...


----------



## Faithful Wife

BluesPower said:


> The thing that may not be really fair for some women is that the roles in dating are reversed in our 40's and 50's. For Girls, you have to take care of yourself, you have to be good in the sack, you have to enjoy sex, and you cannot be the least bit crazy in any way. For men, the rules a little simpler.
> 
> If you are a good looking guy, have a little money, and are good in the sack, you are a SUPER HIGH VALUE TARGET. You simply cannot sleep with all the women that want to get with you, I know, I tried.


I liked your post, but I don't like it when men tell themselves and each other that it is harder for women than men to date after divorce. It simply isn't true as a generalization. It may be true on an individual basis.

For instance, I've known plenty of divorced BSC women who can easily get laid, get dates, and get marriage proposals. Men do not always care about that and some men actually attract and subconsciously want the drama. To say "you cannot be the least bit crazy in any way" is very far from true.

Also, men who want a woman to stay hot for him need to have and maintain a hot body. Simple math there. If I'm fit and hot, you have to be too or else I won't be attracted to you. Being a "good looking guy" is pretty non specific and women may or may not be attracted to him. 

And as a woman you are a SUPER HIGH VALUE TARGET to many men purely by our biology. Of course that doesn't mean high value men will necessarily be the ones targeting you, but that goes both ways too, as you know.

As for this: "You simply cannot sleep with all the women that want to get with you"....this is true for many women for their entire lives. Again, biology.


----------



## BluesPower

Faithful Wife said:


> I liked your post, but I don't like it when men tell themselves and each other that it is harder for women than men to date after divorce. It simply isn't true as a generalization. It may be true on an individual basis.
> 
> For instance, I've known plenty of divorced BSC women who can easily get laid, get dates, and get marriage proposals. Men do not always care about that and some men actually attract and subconsciously want the drama. To say "you cannot be the least bit crazy in any way" is very far from true.
> 
> Also, men who want a woman to stay hot for him need to have and maintain a hot body. Simple math there. If I'm fit and hot, you have to be too or else I won't be attracted to you. Being a "good looking guy" is pretty non specific and women may or may not be attracted to him.
> 
> And as a woman you are a SUPER HIGH VALUE TARGET to many men purely by our biology. Of course that doesn't mean high value men will necessarily be the ones targeting you, but that goes both ways too, as you know.
> 
> As for this: "You simply cannot sleep with all the women that want to get with you"....this is true for many women for their entire lives. Again, biology.


I like your post as well. I should clarify a few things. Of course women can get laid all they want, that has always been the case, always will be. 

I will say that, while I have never had any trouble with women, it is even more so now a days. I am 53 and I am no where near as pretty as I used to be. I have some miles on me. Before I got in to my current R, I was still keeping several FWB/or casual GF's. 

For men that are smart enough, and obviously it is not near all, it is really not hard to avoid "Not crazy at all" and I did that for the most part. I mean, you might sleep with crazy and it might be fun, but unless you are a complete moron you don't date them.

But having said all of that, I think those days are behind me. My new GF really is the most wonderful woman that I have ever met. Beautiful, sexy, loving, kind, affectionate, great in bed, and totally not crazy. I actually cannot believe I found her really, or that there was not any other man strong enough to snatch her up before I got there. What a bunch of Pu$$$$'s. And absolute Gem sitting right in front of them and all of them either to scared to date her or too stupid. 

You know, I really think she is the one, I just wish it had not taken this long to find her...


----------



## Cromer

BluesPower said:


> But having said all of that, I think those days are behind me. My new GF really is the most wonderful woman that I have ever met. Beautiful, sexy, loving, kind, affectionate, great in bed, and totally not crazy. I actually cannot believe I found her really, or that there was not any other man strong enough to snatch her up before I got there. What a bunch of Pu$$$$'s. And absolute Gem sitting right in front of them and all of them either to scared to date her or too stupid.
> 
> You know, I really think she is the one, I just wish it had not taken this long to find her...


Hmmm, I could've written that paragraph :wink2:

You know, the day my divorce was final, a woman I'd known for a couple of years (late 40's, 2 marriages, divorced for 8 years) asked me out for a drink. She had been flirty with me in the past and very attractive. I spent the entire weekend at her house (I call it a ONS but it was a One Weekend Stand). She was only the second woman I'd been with sexually and it was an eyeopener. She really wanted to date, and I was tempted. But soon I started reading crazy all over her. She finally got the message when GF came onto the scene. If I'd wanted to be a man-ho after the divorce, it would not have been a problem. But that's just not me.

Crazy in women is like porn. You know it when you see it and stay clear if you want a healthy relationship.


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## 269370

BluesPower said:


> Of course women can get laid all they want, that has always been the case, always will be.


I don't think it's always the case actually. My wife (35) often tells me that her other mum-friends who are single, recently divorced and in their 40s+ find it harder and harder to find a date 'worth paying a babysitter for' while many single dads I know in their 40s or 50s have no trouble going on dates with women in their 20s or 30s. Biology is definitely at work and things do tend to reverse after a certain age. Looks & aesthetics are not as important for women than for men perhaps so the numbers make sense.

It doesn't mean it's impossible for older women to find the 'love of their life' but it probably means that the 'standards' may have to be adjusted significantly for many as time goes on. At least as far as looks are concerned.

Perhaps men don't get such a bad deal after a divorce after all. Unless they end up divorced again...then it's back to square one.

The other thing is that since when 'getting laid' has been in any way a priority for women. I am sure it's possible to find someone willing to have sex with a woman at any age but is that the point for the woman?


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## Elizabeth001

inmyprime said:


> I don't think it's always the case actually. My wife (35) often tells me that her other mum-friends who are single, recently divorced and in their 40s+ find it harder and harder to find a date 'worth paying a babysitter for' while many single dads I know in their 40s or 50s have no trouble going on dates with women in their 20s or 30s. Biology is definitely at work and things do tend to reverse after a certain age. Looks & aesthetics are not as important for women than for men perhaps so the numbers make sense.
> 
> It doesn't mean it's impossible for older women to find the 'love of their life' but it probably means that the 'standards' may have to be adjusted significantly for many as time goes on. At least as far as looks are concerned.
> 
> Perhaps men don't get such a bad deal after a divorce after all. Unless they end up divorced again...then it's back to square one.
> 
> The other thing is that since when 'getting laid' has been in any way a priority for women. I am sure it's possible to find someone willing to have sex with a woman at any age but is that the point for the woman?




Well yes...if it’s GOOD sex 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## UpsideDownWorld11

You also need to take into consideration that the dating pool for women shrink considerably more as they age. This is based on how men typically prefer younger women and women typically prefer older men.

So if I'm 40, I have available pool of women say 30+ (10 yrs younger is an arbitrary number but for me that's my cutoff). A 40 yr old woman however has a pool of men that are 41+ and many of those men closer to their age want to date 30 yr olds. So, just based on the larger dating pool of women for men, men tend to have less difficulty finding a mate after divorce as long as they are decent looking and have a decent income.


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## Taxman

I have noticed something rather similar these days. My observations, while not scientific in any way, seems to reveal that there are more single women over 50 than men. I have several single male clients in the 50+ age category, and they are quite overt in saying that they rarely have a problem finding someone for the passenger side of their bed. I am an old married man, and the thought of being out there alone is bizarre tending toward frightening. However, I can see, post divorce a few of the males are bound and determined not to ever re-marry. One or two are in common law relationships, and another is serially monogamous. Unfortunately, my worry is later life. Will these relationships be committed enough to withstand the ravages that old age can impose? I have several single women in the 50's thru 70's. One in particular, moved through several OLD services, and finally found someone on a site for older singles. Seems to be a good thing, she is in the process of selling her practice (psych and social services), they have moved in together, and they are preparing to see the world. She had been divorced for over 20 years, and about three years ago, she divulged to me that she was looking now, as she no longer wished to live her life alone. It took her awhile, and my sense of this is that he is a good guy. He is a member of my profession in a different area of specialization. (Management consultant with some excellent skills in organization-contents of her latest tax return were a breeze this year.) I guess where I am going here is that older adults are finding mates after 50. I found that men do not stay on the market very long, unless they are determined to stay on the market. I have also observed that there are more 50+ women available as, wonderful creatures that they are, they outlive males by an average of 7 years.


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## Faithful Wife

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> You also need to take into consideration that the dating pool for women shrink considerably more as they age. This is based on how men typically prefer younger women and women typically prefer older men.
> 
> So if I'm 40, I have available pool of women say 30+ (10 yrs younger is an arbitrary number but for me that's my cutoff). A 40 yr old woman however has a pool of men that are 41+ and many of those men closer to their age want to date 30 yr olds. So, just based on the larger dating pool of women for men, men tend to have less difficulty finding a mate after divorce as long as they are decent looking and have a decent income.


However, you apparently also need to consider that an older woman will be pursued by younger and sometimes MUCH younger men. Sorry, it's still even. Although men don't want to understand this sometimes because they are too busy believing that younger women want older men but that the reverse isn't true.

I literally have 30 men 5 to 15 years younger than me for every man my age who pursues me. Remember - young men have so much more energy and especially sexual energy. They are always going to out pursue older men. 

I finally had to settle on two guys only 10 years younger to date and decide between them to see which one is more compatible with me. Hard time deciding between the one who has a boat (and lots of other toys) and the one who is built like The Rock. Both are professionals, done with the kids thing, and both want my time and attention. Decisions decisions.


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## Faithful Wife

Taxman said:


> I have noticed something rather similar these days. My observations, while not scientific in any way, seems to reveal that there are more single women over 50 than men. I have several single male clients in the 50+ age category, and they are quite overt in saying that they rarely have a problem finding someone for the passenger side of their bed. I am an old married man, and the thought of being out there alone is bizarre tending toward frightening. However, I can see, post divorce a few of the males are bound and determined not to ever re-marry. One or two are in common law relationships, and another is serially monogamous. Unfortunately, my worry is later life. Will these relationships be committed enough to withstand the ravages that old age can impose? I have several single women in the 50's thru 70's. One in particular, moved through several OLD services, and finally found someone on a site for older singles. Seems to be a good thing, she is in the process of selling her practice (psych and social services), they have moved in together, and they are preparing to see the world. She had been divorced for over 20 years, and about three years ago, she divulged to me that she was looking now, as she no longer wished to live her life alone. It took her awhile, and my sense of this is that he is a good guy. He is a member of my profession in a different area of specialization. (Management consultant with some excellent skills in organization-contents of her latest tax return were a breeze this year.) I guess where I am going here is that older adults are finding mates after 50. I found that men do not stay on the market very long, unless they are determined to stay on the market. I have also observed that there are more 50+ women available as, wonderful creatures that they are, they outlive males by an average of 7 years.


When I talk to men I've met on bumble about their experiences with it, they end up telling me they may get one or two matches a day. When I tell them I get at least 20 requests a day and another 20 matches, they are astounded. 

I'm a 50 year old divorced professional female and most of the requests I get are from men 10 years younger.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Define request...


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## Faithful Wife

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Define request...


On bumble you both have to "like" each other or else you cannot communicate. And even when you do both like each other, the woman has to message the man first. If she doesn't message him within 24 hours of both liking each other, he disappears out of her liked list. 

By requests I mean the men who have already liked me first. I may or may not like them back. Even if I do like them I may not message them in time because I'm already messaging with so many other guys I lose track.

I have very strict selection criteria in order to like a guy, yet I still always have far more than I could ever date. So I message with them awhile and try to sort out the ones that seem worthy of meeting in person.

I actually prefer to date men my own age, and I give them first priority if they meet my criteria. But oh those young ones...they are very hard to look away from. Especially when they have a great job, plenty of time for dating and courting, and endless energy. I've had to (reluctantly) turn down all of them that are under 40. If I was out just to get laid, I would be all over that. 

Thankfully, the men I match with who are 40 to 50 still have a lot of great sexual energy so I still know I'm gonna get my world rocked when we get to that point. They are so lovely and yummy. 

I have several girlfriends in my same position that report the same findings.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

That's interesting. I don't think I've ever met a female that would even consider dating a younger man. I mean maybe a year younger but that's about it. My preference is younger women too. I think for most of us its hardwired into our biology that the man needs to be older, just like he needs to be taller. That's what I see, anyways.


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## As'laDain

where i live, about all a man has to do to get a woman, of any age, is be in decent shape and utter or write the words "my horses" anywhere. 

women around here chase after men with horses. 

i look out at the horses in our stalls and i just cant seem to find the appeal. we don't own horses, but we do stable them on our property.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Maybe they think your horse is a metaphor...if you get what I'm sayin...


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## Cromer

I haven't used nor will I ever use a dating app. Talk about the most superficial crap ever. Swiping through pictures and making a dating decision on a picture? Or hoping that some chick will think you are cute and "choose" you? What crap. That's about as shallow as it gets. No way, no how I date a woman from an app. Anyhow, I don't need to LOL.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Nah. Attraction is half the puzzle. If you nail that, your half way there. Until they open their mouth and you want to drive an ice pick into your skull. Even so, you might still get sex...there still attractive with duct tape over their mouth.


----------



## Cromer

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Nah. Attraction is half the puzzle. If you nail that, your half way there. Until they open their mouth and you want to drive an ice pick into your skull. Even so, you might still get sex...there still attractive with duct tape over their mouth.


I guess I'm just old school and would rather experience that attraction in person. A woman whose looking for yummy on dating apps holds no interest whatsoever for me. It's just a preference.


----------



## SA2017

Cromer said:


> I've done a lot of reading in the forums over the past few months on the recommendation of a friend. It is so helpful to read about others' experiences, even though so much of it is so sad and/or tragic. I guess I'm posting because I'm having second thoughts? I was so sure.
> 
> My wife and I are in our early 50's and married for 30 years. I have been retired for a couple of years and she's been a SAHM for most of our marriage. Our youngest is leaving for college soon and for the first time in a very long time, we will be home by ourselves. We are financially secure and in good health and good shape. We still enjoy each other's company and do everything together. We get along great and have a lot of the same interests. Except for sex. We haven't had sex in over ten years and for her, it's no big deal. For me it's Hell.
> 
> I don't need any advice about how to "rekindle" anything. We've been down that road many, many times in many different ways, to include doctors and counseling. The fact remains that we have a sexless marriage and I have long since given up on trying to change it. I haven't brought up the topic in years. I'm sure she thinks the topic of sex has "gone away." The fact is that I have been planning to get out for a long time. We'd be so much better as best friends than husband and wife. I have remained faithful.
> 
> In her mind, our marriage is great. We do everything together, have "couple friends", do volunteer work, active in church, etc. Her family is my family. She has been planning our post-kids life for a while now. She wants to do some traveling and some home renovations.
> 
> For me, I have been carefully planning for divorce for the past year and she has no idea. Not in the slightest. I feel horrible about not telling her yet. I admit that I am and scared to lose so much of this life we've built. But I absolutely refuse to spend the rest of my life without physical intimacy in a relationship. I don't care how much it costs (and it will cost me big), I just to be with someone who doesn't expect me to keep an important part of who I am dead and buried. I'd rather just be alone.
> 
> I don't hate my wife, but I harbor a lot of resentment. I can't say that I love her as a wife anymore; years of rejection saw to that. But, I have a hard time imagining a life without her. We've been together our entire adult lives. Everyone sees us as the perfect marriage.
> 
> Everything is ready to go, to include all of the planning for the anticipated split in assets. I am probably a month or so away from breaking the news and but I don't know how yet. This is going to be rough on so many levels for us and our families, but I'm not going to live this lie of a perfect marriage any longer. I don't want to see my wife hurt but there is no way around it. I am determined to do this but I admit that I am struggling.



please do not divorce like that. first seek counseling just for yourself and go from there. why do you want to surprise her with these horrible news? :crying:


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## 3Xnocharm

SA2017 said:


> please do not divorce like that. first seek counseling just for yourself and go from there. why do you want to surprise her with these horrible news? :crying:


OMG you always do this... no empathy for the person getting screwed over. 

And how can you miss that there are a billion pages to this thread?? :slap:


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## Cromer

3Xnocharm said:


> OMG you always do this... no empathy for the person getting screwed over.
> 
> And how can you miss that there are a billion pages to this thread?? :slap:


*sigh*

Maybe I should edit the original post and add what happened?


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Maybe I should edit the original post and add what happened?


Nah it's more fun when they post making all kind of assumptions, white knighting as white knights do only to find your wife punked them as well.


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## Faithful Wife

Cromer said:


> I haven't used nor will I ever use a dating app. Talk about the most superficial crap ever. Swiping through pictures and making a dating decision on a picture? Or hoping that some chick will think you are cute and "choose" you? What crap. That's about as shallow as it gets. No way, no how I date a woman from an app. Anyhow, I don't need to LOL.


Um....gee thanks for the back handed insult. I apologize for the thread jack. I will not do it again.

I've made several supportive and encouraging posts on this thread before as well. Guess I won't bother with them anymore either. Clearly not appreciated and I didn't mean to bother you with such "crap".


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## As'laDain

i met my wife on yahoo personals. if apps were a thing back then, it probably would have been one...

its just another way to meet people.


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## Cromer

Faithful Wife said:


> Um....gee thanks for the back handed insult. I apologize for the thread jack. I will not do it again.
> 
> I've made several supportive and encouraging posts on this thread before as well. Guess I won't bother with them anymore either. Clearly not appreciated and I didn't mean to bother you with such "crap".


My apologies. I didn't mean it as an insult. I wasn't thinking about who posted, just reacting to the idea of using dating apps. For me, it all seems so superficial but since I've never used one, I probably shouldn't judge so quickly. I guess that's dating for most people in today's world though. I just don't see myself ever doing it.

ETA. Of course, my met my XWW the old fashioned way and look what it got me.


----------



## Cromer

@Faithful Wife, since you called me out on it I've been thinking about the dating app situation. I asked the GF about it at lunch today and although we haven't discussed it much, she has experience in this area and her perspective was very interesting. First, an important distinction. Dating app (Tinder, Bumble, etc.) vs online match services (e.g. Match, eHarmony, etc.). In the past, GF had profiles on Match, eHarmony, and on Tinder. Her experiences with each were very different. I've not done any of it.

I asked her this question: If I had liked her profile on a dating app, and she saw my picture, would she like me back? She didn't want to answer at first but eventually conceded probably not. Then she quickly added how she would've missed out. A bald guy with a goatee would have been a half-second swipe by.

She put it this way. If a woman is in decent shape, does her hair nice and puts on the warpaint, she's gonna get hits. Probably lots of them. Not so for men. No warpaint or updos. So, a full head of darkish hair with a little gray, the square chin, tall, etc. are what catches her eye. I fail on all points. Her two post-divorce relationships were with guys like this and they ended badly. She met both on Match. For Tinder, she said that if she simply wanted to get laid by "yummy", it would have been very easy. She didn't actually meet up with anyone from that service.

We met at a social. I've spent years in that environment and am very outgoing and socially skilled. The art is managing your interaction among the little conversation groups that form and disperse throughout an event. I have years of practice. My ex always told me that I worked a room like a politician and I have a gift for remembering names and faces. At this social, GF was in one of those little impromptu groups and I joined in the conversation. Two hours later we're still talking! When I walked her to her car, I asked her out and four months later we are still at it. She told me that I had "hooked" her after the first five minutes of talking with her. She admits that she didn't give me a second look beforehand.

So, my attitude about it is biased. I know that I would not be successful in a photo-based dating environment. That's not my strength and trying to market myself that way would be a waste of time and energy. It's just not going to happen. Not to mention, I'm not looking simply to get laid by "yummy". She did admit that it was a huge boost to her self-esteem for guys to be interested in her because of how she looked and that was part of the thrill for her after being betrayed by her XWH. It got old and she dropped out of the dating scene for a couple of years until we met.

Everything has its purpose, and I shouldn't judge. I've never liked shallow people and viewed the dating app environment as the shallowest of the shallow. But, everything has it's purpose and serves what people are after for their lives. Please accept my apology. I do value your opinion and it bothers me that I offended you.


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## Faithful Wife

Cromer said:


> Everything has its purpose, and I shouldn't judge. I've never liked shallow people and viewed the dating app environment as *the shallowest of the shallow*. But, everything has it's purpose and serves what people are after for their lives. Please accept my apology. I do value your opinion and it bothers me that I offended you.


Thank you for the apology, and I am also sorry if I got too snarky about it. But here again, you are calling me and the millions of other people in the world who use dating apps "the shallowest of the shallow".

Just because I'm on a dating app doesn't make me shallow. Also just because I definitely want to feel strong attraction toward someone I'm dating doesn't make me shallow. I do not consider men who want a beautiful woman with an awesome body to be shallow either, I consider them to be self aware about what they want (I'm speaking of men in general here). I also don't assume that such a man "only" wants a woman's beauty or great body, I assume he also wants her to be kind, loving, smart, etc.

Keep in mind, what I call attractive and what anyone else calls attractive are not the same, so it is impossible to make assumptions about what people mean when they discuss who is attractive or not. Men I have dated who I found very attractive, some of my girlfriends are like "ew, really?" I could care less, I either feel the attraction or I don't, what other men or women think of the attractiveness of my partner is irrelevant.

There are many men who I've met in person in the world who were totally attractive to me - - yet like you said, if I only saw their picture, I may not have swiped them. Sometimes in person chemistry is far higher than visual attraction. If I were to meet someone right now like that and he asked me out, I would absolutely accept the date and would immediately get off any dating apps as soon as a few good dates were had and it seemed we have something there. The thing is, I don't really get out much. I work 8 - 5 in an environment where no outsiders are ever likely to meet me, and my aging mother lives with me and is in poor health so I can't really get out much in the evenings. When I do get out, it is dinner with a girlfriend where I would not even notice a guy (I wouldn't be looking around or making eye contact or flirting like that) so in order to get asked out a man would have to approach us at the table to strike up a conversation. Being that we do not look like we are there to meet people and are engrossed in conversation, this never happens. Other than dinner with a friend, I spend the rest of my time with my adult kids and other family in each other's homes. I don't belong to a gym. I just generally am not in any environment that allows for a connection to spark with a stranger.

Always possible that I will be invited to a party and meet a friend of a friend....just haven't been able to even do things like that for a long time.

So for me, dating apps are good because otherwise there is very little chance to meet people.

I know I don't need to defend myself here, I'm just sharing a bit more and hoping to give you a bit more perspective about the dating world. Some of us just don't have as many in person options.

I also wanted to throw in here...my adult son is very attractive and has women after him everywhere, all the time. Yet the few times he was on a dating app, he got no attention, he tells me. He was very confused because he was used to lots of attention from women in real life. I was confused too, but I just had to assume that for whatever reason, some people do better on apps and some do better meeting people in person. Why? Which ones? I have no idea. He met his current girlfriend through his dancing community (swing and blues dancer) and they are a wonderful match and he is very happy.

I've met several very nice men on dating apps, ones who are not just attractive (to me) but also dignified, smart, kind, etc. I have not had even one date that turned out being someone I was sorry to have met. A lot of first dates that never went anywhere due to lack of in person chemistry, but I enjoy first dates regardless. There is no pressure, and it is just interesting to meet someone and hear their stories and learn more about the world through their perspective.

(this next part was not about anything you had said, but what a few other men on this thread and all over TAM have been saying)

When men start touting that younger women want older men but the reverse isn't true, and that older women have a hard time in the dating world, I kick back against that. It is silly and not true, and I just wish men would stop making those generalizations. So I get a little cocky about it and talk about how many younger men are pursuing me and all of the girlfriends my age as well. And these are not just idiots looking to get laid. They are men who for their own reasons, enjoy older women and pursue them (for dates, relationships, marriage...not just sex). They also do not lack in options for younger women. They simply have a preference, and there are more and more of these younger men who go for older women as time goes by. It is not a social taboo anymore, and these younger men are just going to go for it instead of worry about what other men might say. So when guys around here and elsewhere go on and on about how older women don't have options because men their age all want younger women, again, I'm going to push back against that because it is just not the case. 

Thanks for the discourse. :smile2:


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## Cromer

Faithful Wife said:


> Thank you for the apology, and I am also sorry if I got too snarky about it. But here again, you are calling me and the millions of other people in the world who use dating apps* "the shallowest of the shallow".
> *


I said "viewed" meaning past tense, and I was really talking about the whole environment. Now that I've had time to think about it, which I hadn't really before, I understand it better. I still don't get judging people by a photo, but I am not going to judge those who do. It didn't come across as I meant.

ETA. It is a good discussion, something I didn't put any real thought into tbh. I'm still newly divorced and the whole modern dating thing is somewhat overwhelming. I'm grateful not to be in it right now and consider myself very lucky.


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## Faithful Wife

Was going to add this one more thing....I am naturally introverted. Though I am completely open and extroverted with people I know and am great in groups when necessary...generally speaking, I don't like talking to strangers. So I avoid eye contact when out in public and if someone does try to talk to me, I get uncomfortable and end the conversation as soon as I can get away. It has nothing to do with them, I am just very introverted in that scenario. My point - - it is quite possible people may be trying to catch my eye or approach me in public or in a group I'm not familiar with, but I simply won't notice them because I'm trying so hard to just stay to myself in my comfort zone. So this is even more reason I don't meet anyone in the outside world very often. It's just me, how I am.


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## Cromer

@Faithful Wife my mother was married seven times, the last time she was 64. She didn't have trouble meeting men no matter her age or shape. She just never met the right one until #7, then she shat all over him. I don't buy that older women can't get men, it's just not what I've seen. If you noticed I stayed out of that conversation LOL.


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## Cromer

Oh, at lunch today GF asked: "why are you asking about dating apps?" LOL. Duh, I didn't think that conversation through before starting it.


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## Faithful Wife

Cromer said:


> @Faithful Wife my mother was married seven times, the last time she was 64. She didn't have trouble meeting men no matter her age or shape. She just never met the right one until #7, then she shat all over him. I don't buy that older women can't get men, it's just not what I've seen. If you noticed I stayed out of that conversation LOL.


Cromer...do you think it is odd that your mother was a cheater and then your wife ended up being one, too? I am just saying this because I see patterns like this all the time and it is always interesting to me. They say we all kind of gravitate toward partners that will recreate certain emotional states within us (not always in a negative way). It is just bizarre how this can happen - - how could we know in advance that someone will turn out like one or both of our parents? But after seeing it in so many examples, I have to believe there is something to it. I'm not saying there would be anyway for you to have known or that you would "want" to attract misery to yourself, of course! No one does! But it is a common thing that has me baffled.


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## Faithful Wife

Cromer said:


> Oh, at lunch today GF asked: "why are you asking about dating apps?" LOL. Duh, I didn't think that conversation through before starting it.


As I was reading your post, I kind of wondered how the GF felt about it....like is he thinking of getting on one? Obviously you cleared it up for her. :smile2:


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## Cromer

Faithful Wife said:


> As I was reading your post, I kind of wondered how the GF felt about it....like is he thinking of getting on one? Obviously you cleared it up for her. :smile2:


She knows that I post in a relationship forum and that it was good therapy so to speak. I didn't give asking her about it a second thought because there's not a subject I won't talk to her about. She's the same way. I have to remember to use a bit of relationship judgment on issues like this though but ya, it's cleared up 0


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## Cromer

Faithful Wife said:


> Cromer...do you think it is odd that your mother was a cheater and then your wife ended up being one, too? I am just saying this because I see patterns like this all the time and it is always interesting to me. They say we all kind of gravitate toward partners that will recreate certain emotional states within us (not always in a negative way). It is just bizarre how this can happen - - how could we know in advance that someone will turn out like one or both of our parents? But after seeing it in so many examples, I have to believe there is something to it. I'm not saying there would be anyway for you to have known or that you would "want" to attract misery to yourself, of course! No one does! But it is a common thing that has me baffled.


I always saw my mother and my XWW as two entirely different women. In almost every way they were. But I didn't live the latter half of my childhood with my mother. My grandmother was my role model. My mother was obsessed with having attention from men, and it turned out that my XWW was too but not to my mother's extreme. My mother would drop her H in a heartbeat for the next fog to come along. My XWW stayed in the marriage and didn't flaunt OM to my face as my mother did with her H's. My mother used to tell my XWW how lucky she was to have a faithful man to take care of her, go figure.

No, they are different in almost every respect. Frankly, I thought XWW was more like my grandmother in character, morals, and manner. I couldn't have been more wrong.


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## 269370

Cromer said:


> @Faithful Wife my mother was married seven times, the last time she was 64. She didn't have trouble meeting men no matter her age or shape. She just never met the right one until #7, then she shat all over him. I don't buy that older women can't get men, it's just not what I've seen. If you noticed I stayed out of that conversation LOL.



Yes I suppose it can be a touchy subject. I was only relaying what my wife’s single mum friends who use those apps/sites tell her. I don’t really have an opinion about it and like i said, I’m sure it’s possible for anyone to find the love of their life at any age.
I don’t get why people get offended by this; if it doesn’t apply to them then surely it doesn’t matter what happens to others or what others think or say on this subject. Everyone’s experience will be different.

I don’t think I would have a problem with dating apps (I used to model for fun when I was younger) but I can just not envisage meeting anyone through dating apps either without having to go through a lot of trouble (it will be like finding a needle in a haystack) because personal chemistry is really not possible to tell from photo.

A friend of mine told me there’s an app where you can input your bank account balance in profile or something similar and she actually met someone and married that way. They seem quite happy! (So much for my scepticism)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elizabeth001

Faithful Wife said:


> Was going to add this one more thing....I am naturally introverted. Though I am completely open and extroverted with people I know and am great in groups when necessary...generally speaking, I don't like talking to strangers. So I avoid eye contact when out in public and if someone does try to talk to me, I get uncomfortable and end the conversation as soon as I can get away. It has nothing to do with them, I am just very introverted in that scenario. My point - - it is quite possible people may be trying to catch my eye or approach me in public or in a group I'm not familiar with, but I simply won't notice them because I'm trying so hard to just stay to myself in my comfort zone. So this is even more reason I don't meet anyone in the outside world very often. It's just me, how I am.




That’s exactly the way I am too 

I think some of the attraction for older women might be less drama and more older women have created independence. Plus...we are really GREAT in bed! Hahaaaaa!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Edmund

Faithful Wife said:


> When I talk to men I've met on bumble about their experiences with it, they end up telling me they may get one or two matches a day. When I tell them I get at least 20 requests a day and another 20 matches, they are astounded.
> 
> I'm a 50 year old divorced professional female and most of the requests I get are from men 10 years younger.



I suspect you or at least your photo is stunningly beautiful for your age if you are getting that many younger men.


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## Faithful Wife

Edmund said:


> I suspect you or at least your photo is stunningly beautiful for your age if you are getting that many younger men.


Never been called "stunningly beautiful" in my life. Attractive, pretty, etc. yes.

Sorry to disappoint your expectations but I know many women of all shapes and sizes and levels of attraction around my age who are getting lots of attention from younger men.

Don't want to believe this because of your preconceived ideas? No worries by me. I know what is happening and it's happening all the time.

We don't get to decide for other people what they are attracted to.


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## sokillme

Faithful Wife said:


> Never been called "stunningly beautiful" in my life. Attractive, pretty, etc. yes.
> 
> Sorry to disappoint your expectations but I know many women of all shapes and sizes and levels of attraction around my age who are getting lots of attention from younger men.
> 
> Don't want to believe this because of your preconceived ideas? No worries by me. I know what is happening and it's happening all the time.
> 
> We don't get to decide for other people what they are attracted to.


Cougars and Milfs are kind of a thing now. Not sure how many are looking for long term relationships or providing financial support though. Also the styles are better and better at making them look better. Plus more people take care of themselves and live longer too.


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## Faithful Wife

sokillme said:


> Cougars and Milfs are kind of a thing now. Not sure how many are looking for long term relationships or providing financial support though.


I had said previously, these are not drifter young men looking to get into your purse. I'm talking about stable, professional men who are looking for relationships.

As I said, I am 50. So if I date a 40 year old, he is a grown man, not a man child looking for a mommy. Also, with most of them, if I joke that I am a MILF or cougar to them, they are not agreeing and kind of find it insulting. They tell me "actually I'm just interested in you, your age doesn't matter to me."

Sorry this is so hard for some of you to believe!


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## Cynthia

Edmund said:


> I suspect you or at least your photo is stunningly beautiful for your age if you are getting that many younger men.


That could be true, but if a woman looks younger than she is, she is likely to interest men who are about the age that she looks to be. Also, if a woman is fit, she is going to be high on the list, because very few women are fit these days, especially once they have children and the time they spent in the gym is focused on their children instead.


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## sokillme

Faithful Wife said:


> I had said previously, these are not drifter young men looking to get into your purse. I'm talking about stable, professional men who are looking for relationships.
> 
> As I said, I am 50. So if I date a 40 year old, he is a grown man, not a man child looking for a mommy.
> 
> Sorry this is so hard for some of you to believe!


My wife is 5 years older then me. I believe it. She is also in phenomenal shape and looks 20 years younger. In the end who cares as long as people are happy.


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## Cromer

sokillme said:


> My wife is 5 years older then me. I believe it. She is also in phenomenal shape and looks 20 years younger. In the end who cares as long as people are happy.


I watched this series on Netflix, "Age Gap Love". It was very interesting. I don't think I could do 20 or 30 years difference but God bless 'em.


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## Faithful Wife

CynthiaDe said:


> That could be true, but if a woman looks younger than she is, she is likely to interest men who are about the age that she looks to be. Also, if a woman is fit, she is going to be high on the list, because very few women are fit these days, especially once they have children and the time they spent in the gym is focused on their children instead.


Hmmmm....I know it is true that average Americans are not all that fit, and many are extremely unfit and overweight.

But perhaps people who are on dating apps tend to be more fit? 

I don't see very many overweight people on bumble at least. Maybe a few who are 10 to 20 pounds overweight but that's about it.

Perhaps it's where I live and people in general are more fit and less fat here?

I am bisexual and am open to dating women as well. So I've sometimes searched for women or men at the same time on bumble. The women my age mostly look pretty good. Definitely most of them were fit or at least not greatly overweight. Most of them I felt were approximately my "level" of fitness and attractiveness.

The results may be a little different for men looking at women on bumble than the women who would come up on my feed, because the women I would see had marked that they are looking for women or both men and women. It could be that the population of strictly straight women men see are not as fit, but based on the fact that the men I see are mostly fit (even the ones I don't match with, I'm talking about all of them in a general way) I would assume most of the straight women are, too.

Again this may be a phenomenon related to who is on dating apps and where I live. My point is only that I am far from the only fit attractive woman in my age group. There are tons of us!


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## Faithful Wife

My sister who is 49 was in a one year relationship with a 34 year old attorney. They recently ended it because his sincere desire is to have kids of his own and be married. She is done with kids and marriage and so there was no solution other than to break up.

He is out there trying to date now, but keeps in touch with her. He has told her he can't find a young woman his age who is anything close to the amazing woman she is. He is still in love with her and told her several times he would have proposed to her in a heartbeat if they could have still had kids together somehow. Her tubes are tied and he even asked her if that was reverse able. Even if it was, she would not have a baby again at this point, her kids are in college and she's ready to have an empty nest.

They met on match. He had never dated an older woman, wasn't into the cougar thing. She had put a "like" on one of his pictures and they ended up chatting. From there they decided to meet up and just see what happened. He always said he was looking for a wife and kids ultimately but would happily take a detour with her for awhile. He fell madly in love with her right away and that's why they ended up together for about a year. Now he can't seem to replace her in his mind or heart and says no other woman compares, no matter what age.

She never gave him money or any other type of financial support. They simply really enjoyed each other's company (and the sex). 

Me personally, I couldn't date someone that young but I guess my mind could be changed if I met one who somehow changed it. I would be more likely to date someone 65 rather than 35, but that's outside my normal range also. Just saying I would be open to it with the right person but I definitely wouldn't be looking there to begin with.


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## sokillme

Faithful Wife said:


> Hmmmm....I know it is true that average Americans are not all that fit, and many are extremely unfit and overweight.
> 
> But perhaps people who are on dating apps tend to be more fit?
> 
> I don't see very many overweight people on bumble at least. Maybe a few who are 10 to 20 pounds overweight but that's about it.
> 
> Perhaps it's where I live and people in general are more fit and less fat here?
> 
> I am bisexual and am open to dating women as well. So I've sometimes searched for women or men at the same time on bumble. The women my age mostly look pretty good. Definitely most of them were fit or at least not greatly overweight. Most of them I felt were approximately my "level" of fitness and attractiveness.
> 
> The results may be a little different for men looking at women on bumble than the women who would come up on my feed, because the women I would see had marked that they are looking for women or both men and women. It could be that the population of strictly straight women men see are not as fit, but based on the fact that the men I see are mostly fit (even the ones I don't match with, I'm talking about all of them in a general way) I would assume most of the straight women are, too.
> 
> Again this may be a phenomenon related to who is on dating apps and where I live. My point is only that I am far from the only fit attractive woman in my age group. There are tons of us!


I am assuming your name is past tense? Meaning you are no longer a wife?


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## Faithful Wife

sokillme said:


> I am assuming your name is past tense? Meaning you are no longer a wife?


Yes I joined TAM and chose that user name when I was married. Didn't feel like changing it when I got divorced.

I might be his wife again someday anyway and then would have to change it back again 

Long story...


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## sokillme

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes I joined TAM and chose that user name when I was married. Didn't feel like changing it when I got divorced.
> 
> I might be his wife again someday anyway and then would have to change it back again
> 
> Long story...


Yeah well it just didn't make sense with all your dating app stories. Anyway the name kind implies your ex-husband wasn't?


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## Edmund

@Cromer, I think this venerable thread has veered off course and further thread jacks will reduce its considerable value to future readers by making it even longer without adding to your original story as reflected by the title.

I suggest you ask them to close this thread and direct everyone to the new thread you started a few weeks ago regarding post divorce issues.


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## sokillme

Edmund said:


> @Cromer, much as I am curious as to how Faithful Wife went from being married but living separately and telling TAM how great that alternative is ... to being divorced in less than a year ... and expecting to re-marry her husband at some future time .... I think this venerable thread has veered off course and further thread jacks will reduce its considerable value to future readers by making it even longer without adding to your original story as reflected by the title.
> 
> I suggest you ask them to close this thread and direct everyone to the new thread you started a few weeks ago regarding post divorce issues.


Agreed. Sorry.


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## Faithful Wife

sokillme said:


> Yeah well it just didn't make sense with all your dating app stories. Anyway the name kind implies your ex-husband wasn't?


Well he was, so, sorry you interpret it otherwise.


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## Faithful Wife

Edmund said:


> @Cromer, much as I am curious as to how Faithful Wife went from being married but living separately and telling TAM how great that alternative is ... to being divorced in less than a year ... and expecting to re-marry her husband at some future time .... I think this venerable thread has veered off course and further thread jacks will reduce its considerable value to future readers by making it even longer without adding to your original story as reflected by the title.
> 
> I suggest you ask them to close this thread and direct everyone to the new thread you started a few weeks ago regarding post divorce issues.


Hey Edmund. Nice to meet you! Interesting that you've been stalking me around the board even though you are new and don't know me. 

I had already apologized to Cromer for thread jacking yet he came back and continued conversing with me about the thread jack topic. But you already know that since you've obviously been hunting up my posts. 

But sure, be the man to tell Cromer what he should do! Clearly you are here to promote good vibrations and good will, right? Uh huh.


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## Faithful Wife

@MattMatt or other mods...feel free to delete all these posts, and also to reopen my thread in general section from 2015 which Edmund dug up just to mock me from a moment of a very difficult transition in my life. (How sweet of him).

I would like to give an update on that thread and share some thoughts on it from 3 years later, and update what is going on in my relationship with my ex and other areas of my life.

And also to hand Edmund a plate of sass. I'm not going to allow someone to treat me like that without standing up for myself.


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## 269370

This must be the first time in TAM’s history where it’s not me getting told off massively for blinking the wrong way <relieved>
Guys, take a deep breath and just let it happen...Things will be alright in the end. 🤫*♂*♂


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Edmund

Faithful Wife said:


> Hey Edmund. Nice to meet you! Interesting that you've been stalking me around the board even though you are new and don't know me.
> 
> 
> 
> I had already apologized to Cromer for thread jacking yet he came back and continued conversing with me about the thread jack topic. But you already know that since you've obviously been hunting up my posts.
> 
> 
> 
> But sure, be the man to tell Cromer what he should do! Clearly you are here to promote good vibrations and good will, right? Uh huh.



Hello Faithful,

Thanks for your comments. I hope we are good now.


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## Edmund

Faithful Wife said:


> @MattMatt or other mods...feel free to delete all these posts, and also to reopen my thread in general section from 2015 which Edmund dug up just to mock me from a moment of a very difficult transition in my life. (How sweet of him).
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to give an update on that thread and share some thoughts on it from 3 years later, and update what is going on in my relationship with my ex and other areas of my life.
> 
> 
> 
> And also to hand Edmund a plate of sass. I'm not going to allow someone to treat me like that without standing up for myself.



I apologize for mocking you. And I’ll take the sass, no problem. Thanks for updating your 2015 thread.


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## MattMatt

Moderator message

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/2117-forum-rules-please-read-first.html

Mocking or deriding other members is against the rules.


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## Chuck71

Cromer said:


> I always saw my mother and my XWW as two entirely different women. In almost every way they were. But I didn't live the latter half of my childhood with my mother. My grandmother was my role model. My mother was obsessed with having attention from men, and it turned out that my XWW was too but not to my mother's extreme. My mother would drop her H in a heartbeat for the next fog to come along. My XWW stayed in the marriage and didn't flaunt OM to my face as my mother did with her H's. My mother used to tell my XWW how lucky she was to have a faithful man to take care of her, go figure.
> 
> No, they are different in almost every respect. Frankly, I thought XWW was more like my grandmother in character, morals, and manner. I couldn't have been more wrong.


When one grows up with solid parents.... they have a general idea of what to look for, in a spouse.

My mom was not a helicopter parent but she was a bit smothering. Pop... was not much

into the care giving aspect but was a master teacher. So I took about half from each... to seek out a mate

who was a caregiver and... someone I could learn from too. During our first 5-7 years together,

I felt I made the correct choice. Not so had you asked me 10-12 years in. No one can fully envision

the finished product. My XW had many FOO issues.... but she "appeared" to have dealt with most in

a healthy way. Some she never dealt with and some appeared as time went on.

It's a crap shoot.... I've seen guy friends M dingbats in their 20s and they've ended up being super W,

super mom, and been there for them when they're smacked in the mouth by the world.

Then I saw, my best bro in HS, I was his best man when they M. Perfect couple, would have seven kids....

Two years later..... he suspected something....ran it by me, -When's the last time you looked at a

phone bill?- Sure 'nuff..... But that was 1994.... most cells didn't do long distance.

Pretty ribbons and bows with colorful wrappings do not guarantee a pretty, colorful gift.


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## Edmund

MattMatt said:


> Moderator message
> 
> 
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/2117-forum-rules-please-read-first.html
> 
> 
> 
> Mocking or deriding other members is against the rules.



Thanks for the reminder MattMatt. I didn’t really mean it to be mocking when I wrote it, but after she said it was, I went back, and realized it sounded snarky and I deleted it. I apologized to her. I really sincerely just think this thread should be closed and point to Cromer’s new thread but that is his decision of course. In regard to FW, her story is unusual and seems to attract posters who attack her for what she and her exhusband did which actually seems logical to me and I was wondering why it didn’t work. But the controversy over her story was filling up this thread with comments about her having nothing to do with Cromer’s story. That’s what happened here.


----------



## Cynthia

Here's a link to Faithful wife's thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...0913-alternative-relationships-marriages.html


----------



## sokillme

Hey @Cromer how is it going? Any news on your ex, is she finally calming down? 

Did you see the tread on SI "New and in pain?" Same pattern as you, over 20 years married, got caught cheating. His one partner. Seems like guy is too week to break away though. He is going to have a hard time. 

Sounds like posters are pushing for a Poly. If it happens that will be interesting, I bet it won't be her first rodeo, just like your wife. I think it's really rare where people suddenly change. I think most of the time it's life long patterns they just get more and more extreme until cheating happens. There is another WW on their with what seems to be a 30 year marriage that she blew up. Says she never really thought much about cheating until she did it. Didn't think she would get caught. Where do these entitled wives come from? 

Anyway it's a shame you are not on their to tell the dude to move on.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> Hey @Cromer how is it going? Any news on your ex, is she finally calming down?
> 
> Did you see the tread on SI "New and in pain?" Same pattern as you, over 20 years married, got caught cheating. His one partner. Seems like guy is too week to break away though. He is going to have a hard time.
> 
> Sounds like posters are pushing for a Poly. If it happens that will be interesting, I bet it won't be her first rodeo, just like your wife. I think it's really rare where people suddenly change. I think most of the time it's life long patterns they just get more and more extreme until cheating happens. There is another WW on their with what seems to be a 30 year marriage that she blew up. Says she never really thought much about cheating until she did it. Didn't think she would get caught. Where do these entitled wives come from?
> 
> Anyway it's a shame you are not on their to tell the dude to move on.


I just posted on his thread. How depressing.

The XWW is at her brother's and seems stable according to DD1. I really don't know more than that atm.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I just posted on his thread. How depressing.


Good man.


----------



## Cromer

I received a letter from XWW. Ten pages, handwritten, dated last week when she was in the hospital. She must've mailed it when she got out. A few things in it: I am truly sorry for what I did to you and our family; I was selfish and entitled; I didn't know how to fix it and I made you suffer; I should've let you go years ago but I selfishly used your love and respect for our family against you; I took you for granted by thinking I could live as your wife like nothing happened; you didn't deserve it; I love you and always will; I know that you've moved on and I have to accept that you'll never be in my life again; I have to let you go so I can heal; thank you for all you've done with our children and not trying to turn them against me; you'll never know how broken I am and the remorse I hold for the pain I caused you; I only wish happiness for your future. Love always, XWW

There is a lot more but that's the gist of it.


----------



## lilianagrace

Cromer said:


> I received a letter from XWW. Ten pages, handwritten, dated last week when she was in the hospital. She must've mailed it when she got out. A few things in it: I am truly sorry for what I did to you and our family; I was selfish and entitled; I didn't know how to fix it and I made you suffer; I should've let you go years ago but I selfishly used your love and respect for our family against you; I took you for granted by thinking I could live as your wife like nothing happened; you didn't deserve it; I love you and always will; I know that you've moved on and I have to accept that you'll never be in my life again; I have to let you go so I can heal; thank you for all you've done with our children and not trying to turn them against me; you'll never know how broken I am and the remorse I hold for the pain I caused you; I only wish happiness for your future. Love always, XWW
> 
> There is a lot more but that's the gist of it.


Tragic. Just tragic.. this could be the saddest movie. She was wrong and entitled and selfish and betrayed you but I can't help feel sorry for her too. She will pay for her mistakes for the rest of her life. You get to enjoy the rest of yours. As you should!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## dubsey

Take that letter as mostly grounded in truth. Ignore the "I need to let you go so I can heal" stuff. That's not about you, and she's not doing you a favor. But the rest, I believe she truly believes it, and is probably regretful for what happened, not that she got caught and is paying for it, but actually regretful that it happend - mostly because she's acknowledging that you're working hard with/through your kids not to abandon her, when they otherwise would really probably want to.


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## farsidejunky

Let this letter be the final page in the chapter of your life that involves her.


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## Tron

Cromer said:


> I received a letter from XWW. Ten pages, handwritten, dated last week when she was in the hospital. She must've mailed it when she got out. A few things in it: I am truly sorry for what I did to you and our family; I was selfish and entitled; I didn't know how to fix it and I made you suffer; I should've let you go years ago but I selfishly used your love and respect for our family against you; I took you for granted by thinking I could live as your wife like nothing happened; you didn't deserve it; I love you and always will; I know that you've moved on and I have to accept that you'll never be in my life again; I have to let you go so I can heal; thank you for all you've done with our children and not trying to turn them against me; you'll never know how broken I am and the remorse I hold for the pain I caused you; I only wish happiness for your future. Love always, XWW
> 
> There is a lot more but that's the gist of it.












10 years too late.


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## Cromer

@lilianagrace it is sad. A tragedy really.
@dubsey I do think she his genuinely remorseful, regretful, etc. But that doesn't change anything for me. Maybe it will help her with her relationship with the kids though.
@farsidejunky You are right. I'm not going to get drawn into anything, and I'm not planning to write anything back.

I'm still processing it but it reads like a therapy exercise. She uses the word "selfish" a lot. She also said several times how I had always been there for her, she didn't appreciate how much until I was gone, and that she is ashamed that she wasn't there for me. She also said that she knows that I will always be there for our children, and that gives her some peace.


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## Cynthia

I think you're right that it was a therapist exercise to help her move past the self-destruction and get on with her life. I sincerely hope that she does for the sake of your family.

It's also good that she has released you. You have struggled with what to do and if you have any responsibility to her. You struggled with whether you should visit her in the hospital and then thought about writing her a letter. I hope that in releasing you, it will be easier should you struggle with those kinds of things in the future. In releasing you, she has told you that visiting or writing is not your role. Your role in all this is to be a father to your children, which you are doing a great job at and will continue to do so. There is not need to respond to her letter.

It's also likely that she learned in therapy at the hospital that her belief that you were vengeful towards her with the DNA testing is not true and that you have been AMAZING in not actively turning the children against her, which you could have done with at least the younger two. You have shown great restraint and good character.



Cromer said:


> @lilianagrace it is sad. A tragedy really.
> 
> @dubsey I do think she his genuinely remorseful, regretful, etc. But that doesn't change anything for me. Maybe it will help her with her relationship with the kids though.
> 
> @farsidejunky You are right. I'm not going to get drawn into anything, and I'm not planning to write anything back.
> 
> I'm still processing it but it reads like a therapy exercise. She uses the word "selfish" a lot. She also said several times how I had always been there for her, she didn't appreciate how much until I was gone, and that she is ashamed that she wasn't there for me. She also said that she knows that I will always be there for our children, and that gives her some peace.


----------



## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> I think you're right that it was a therapist exercise to help her move past the self-destruction and get on with her life. I sincerely hope that she does for the sake of your family.
> 
> It's also good that she has released you. You have struggled with what to do and if you have any responsibility to her. You struggled with whether you should visit her in the hospital and then thought about writing her a letter. I hope that in releasing you, it will be easier should you struggle with those kinds of things in the future. In releasing you, she has told you that visiting or writing is not your role. Your role in all this is to be a father to your children, which you are doing a great job at and will continue to do so. There is not need to respond to her letter.
> 
> It's also likely that she learned in therapy at the hospital that her belief that you were vengeful towards her with the DNA testing is not true and that you have been AMAZING in not actively turning the children against her, which you could have done with at least the younger two. You have shown great restraint and good character.


Thanks for the kind words. After reading the letter, all of the background questions I got from her doctor make sense. I don't know what switch flipped on in her brain but hopefully, it stays on.

DD1 texted and asked if I got the letter. I'd bet dollars to donuts that she read it already. She's been with her mom a lot recently. That little stinker :smile2:


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## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> Thanks for the kind words. After reading the letter, all of the background questions I got from her doctor make sense. I don't know what switch flipped on in her brain but hopefully, it stays on.
> 
> DD1 texted and asked if I got the letter. I'd bet dollars to donuts that she read it already. She's been with her mom a lot recently. That little stinker :smile2:


I also hope that switch stays flipped.  Being in a psychiatric hospital has to be an intense experience.

You and your ex are blessed to have such a wonderful, wise, and loving daughter. I'm sure you're right that she read it before it went out.


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## Tron

I am sure it felt good for her to get those feelings out. Hopefully it was her way of getting closure. 

It seems you got yours when you divorced. She just hadn't caught up.


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## Taxman

Cromer, you will forgive me for saying this, but your ex wife got exactly what she deserved. Yes she should have owned up to her affairs and given you your freedom a decade ago. Instead she used your ethics against you. Now, **** her! May other men never look her way again. May another penis never enter her. May she die alone and desperately lonely. That is enough for what SHE DID TO YOU. 

Normally, I would counsel kindness and forgiveness. Not in your ex wife's case. Sorry, she may be the mother of your children, but my Mom always said, "Any cat can have kittens" They can thank you for them coming out as good as they are. Thank goodness they do not follow their mother, otherwise they would have the morals of a mink, while making their SO's sit and take it.


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## Cromer

Taxman said:


> They can thank you for them coming out as good as they are. Thank goodness they do not follow their mother, otherwise they would have the morals of a mink, while making their SO's sit and take it.


Only time will tell how this affects the kids and their relationships. DD1 is married, no kids, with an H that I love like a son. If her H were to cheat, I have no doubt that her vengeance would be swift, brutal, and without mercy. Not to mention what good ol' dad would do :surprise:. Her H knows it too. As for DD2 and DS3, no idea but I've seen DD2 drop a bf like a hot rock when she suspected something, and all his begging did was make her despise him. DD1 is measured, calculating, and logical. DD2 is more emotion driven, and DS3 is laid back. I think all of them will be fine and stand up for themselves, especially after what they've been through with their mom. No one wants to think their child would betray a SO, nor suffer the indignity of a betrayal.

On a different note, my best friend of 40 years has become a bit paranoid about his marriage. My experience has caused him to question and start digging about some things that happened in the past. Ugh.


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## Cynthia

Cromer said:


> No one wants to think their child would betray a SO, nor suffer the indignity of a betrayal.


I tell my kids that bad things are going to happen to them no matter what. Rain falls on the good and evil. But the bad things do not have to crush us. We learn basic principles for life and stick to our principles, then we will be okay.




Cromer said:


> On a different note, my best friend of 40 years has become a bit paranoid about his marriage. My experience has caused him to question and start digging about some things that happened in the past. Ugh.


 That's too bad. Do you think he's being paranoid or is recognizing true flags that he was blind to in the past?


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## Taxman

Cromer
Did you check out 2018MLMM's thread on SI. The similarities are significant. That took a definite turn today. The WW discovered that her AP was cheating on her as well. She flushed her marriage, career and kids for a 20 something that was married and cheating on her as well. You can't make this stuff up. She had a total meltdown today, and it only served to make him angrier. There appears to be no avoiding a divorce for her, as well as her children turning their backs. She has totally flushed her life. Sounds familiar?


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## Cromer

CynthiaDe said:


> That's too bad. Do you think he's being paranoid or is recognizing true flags that he was blind to in the past?


I'm not sure. I've known his wife since before they married and I would say it would be beyond shocking, but nothing surprises me anymore. She had no mercy for my XWW, but we know how that can go. He has been doing a lot of reading and hasn't shared any details about his suspicion, only that he thinks something might have happened years ago but it could be just him imagining things. He swears everything is great with his wife and marriage. I told him it would be best just to drop it. They are empty-nesters.


----------



## Cromer

Taxman said:


> Cromer
> Did you check out 2018MLMM's thread on SI. The similarities are significant. That took a definite turn today. The WW discovered that her AP was cheating on her as well. She flushed her marriage, career and kids for a 20 something that was married and cheating on her as well. You can't make this stuff up. She had a total meltdown today, and it only served to make him angrier. There appears to be no avoiding a divorce for her, as well as her children turning their backs. She has totally flushed her life. Sounds familiar?


I've been following his story, even posted in his WW's thread advising her to take care of herself before the meltdown. But yeah, I saw the parallels and that's why I posted. Maybe this deserves a 2x4, but for some WS's I believe that the pain of losing what they threw away is real, beyond just selfish regret. Maybe these people can become committed partners after an R. But there are so many more who don't care or don't give a damn about their BS's, yet the BS still tries to R or chase after someone who threw them away. It's horrifying to watch.

I also don't get how so many BS's there are complete, wishy-washy doormats. Some have 4 or 5 D-Day's in their signatures and they are still with the cheater. I admit the prospect of divorce was scary for me, but I had no idea about the A's at the time. Being scared of what divorce costs shouldn't outweigh the gains realized by being free from a toxic relationship. Unfortunately, if I'd done a cost/benefit and ROI before getting divorced, my emotions would have clouded my analysis. I see that so clearly now. The cost of divorce is an investment in one's future. Unfortunately, the most valuable returns can't be measured so easily.

I can't read SI anymore. It is such a depressing place. It's like a train wreck, you can't help but stop and keep looking at the carnage even though it is so disturbing. Reading selected threads there and here should be mandatory before anyone decides to get married. There would be a lot more prenups.


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## Tatsuhiko

Speaking of SI, just make sure you do whatever is necessary to prevent your wife from ending up like AmbivalentOne's.


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## Taxman

Cromer said:


> I can't read SI anymore. It is such a depressing place. It's like a train wreck, you can't help but stop and keep looking at the carnage even though it is so disturbing. Reading selected threads there and here should be mandatory before anyone decides to get married. There would be a lot more prenups.


I don't know how people stay there and post. SI is one of the more toxic ones. I was on about two years ago, and my story actually infuriated one of the mods. I wasn't sure what their story was, but I received a warning when I posted my story. I PM'd the mod, who again warned me that my story, or rather what happened, was inappropriate for their site. I kinda lost it, and told him or her where to go and how to get there. I was told to f' off, and banned. I have been told their mods get a bug up the ass and will ban for anything that offends them.

2018 would be much better off here. His wife would def. be better off here. OK, ok ok, she f*cked up big time, and flushed her entire life in one motion. The 2x4's were there. Followed by discovery that the affair was even stupider, as the AP had another chippy. So she pissed her world away for nothing, nada, gornischt, sweet f*ck all. When you look at Webster's dictionary under stupid, her picture is there.


----------



## Malaise

Taxman said:


> I don't know how people stay there and post. SI is one of the more toxic ones. I was on about two years ago, and my story actually infuriated one of the mods. I wasn't sure what their story was, but I received a warning when I posted my story. I PM'd the mod, who again warned me that my story, or rather what happened, was inappropriate for their site. I kinda lost it, and told him or her where to go and how to get there. I was told to f' off, and banned. I have been told their mods get a bug up the ass and will ban for anything that offends them.
> 
> *2018 would be much better off here.* His wife would def. be better off here. OK, ok ok, she f*cked up big time, and flushed her entire life in one motion. The 2x4's were there. Followed by discovery that the affair was even stupider, as the AP had another chippy. So she pissed her world away for nothing, nada, gornischt, sweet f*ck all. When you look at Webster's dictionary under stupid, her picture is there.


He was here telling the same story. He was banned.


----------



## Malaise

Malaise said:


> He was here telling the same story. He was banned.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/414937-i-know.html


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I received a letter from XWW. Ten pages, handwritten, dated last week when she was in the hospital. She must've mailed it when she got out. A few things in it: I am truly sorry for what I did to you and our family; I was selfish and entitled; I didn't know how to fix it and I made you suffer; I should've let you go years ago but I selfishly used your love and respect for our family against you; I took you for granted by thinking I could live as your wife like nothing happened; you didn't deserve it; I love you and always will; I know that you've moved on and I have to accept that you'll never be in my life again; I have to let you go so I can heal; thank you for all you've done with our children and not trying to turn them against me; you'll never know how broken I am and the remorse I hold for the pain I caused you; I only wish happiness for your future. Love always, XWW
> 
> There is a lot more but that's the gist of it.


Yeah after reading on here and SI I have come to the conclusion in situations like your if I had a choice between being the one who cheated and the one being cheated on I would rather be the one cheated on. At least you can hold your head up high and move on. The one who cheated will always be an adulterer, when you understand what that really means, that you took someone who love you and treated the like garbage, I suspect that is a hard thing to live with. That's the ones who get it. Some don't get it.

I do think if you read the W section of SI there are a few on their that if they had done like you and just split these women also would be in the hospital having a breakdown. Mrs W. for instance.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> @lilianagrace it is sad. A tragedy really.
> 
> @dubsey I do think she his genuinely remorseful, regretful, etc. But that doesn't change anything for me. Maybe it will help her with her relationship with the kids though.
> 
> @farsidejunky You are right. I'm not going to get drawn into anything, and I'm not planning to write anything back.
> 
> I'm still processing it but it reads like a therapy exercise. She uses the word "selfish" a lot. She also said several times how I had always been there for her, she didn't appreciate how much until I was gone, and that she is ashamed that she wasn't there for me. She also said that she knows that I will always be there for our children, and that gives her some peace.


Maybe one day years from now you will be able to be in the same room and interact like my parents do. There is really no hard feelings anymore. It's just life and they had a big part in each others.


----------



## sokillme

Taxman said:


> Cromer, you will forgive me for saying this, but your ex wife got exactly what she deserved. Yes she should have owned up to her affairs and given you your freedom a decade ago. Instead she used your ethics against you. Now, **** her! May other men never look her way again. May another penis never enter her. May she die alone and desperately lonely. That is enough for what SHE DID TO YOU.
> 
> Normally, I would counsel kindness and forgiveness. Not in your ex wife's case. Sorry, she may be the mother of your children, but my Mom always said, "Any cat can have kittens" They can thank you for them coming out as good as they are. Thank goodness they do not follow their mother, otherwise they would have the morals of a mink, while making their SO's sit and take it.


Funny you hope they die alone, I always hope that they love someone as intensely and loyally as their BS once loved them only to have that person treat them the same way they treated their BS. That seems closer to justice.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> Funny you hope they die alone, I always hope that they love someone as intensely and loyally as their BS once loved them only to have that person treat them the same way they treated their BS. That seems closer to justice.


Ya, that's stone cold right there.

Before my XWW gained her 40+ pounds, she was in really great shape. We're talking a 55 yo woman w/3 kids who had abs kinda shape. She's a looker too. It was torture to be next to that for years and get denied. Of course, her fitness situation really took off with gym-boi, and that makes it worse. My point being is if she got her act together, she would definitely find someone with no problem. The spitefulness in me hopes that he's a scumbag, she marries him, then he treats her like crap, cheats on her, and gives her another STD. But I won't stoop that low. Maybe he just cheats on her.

It's hard to be mean in this circumstance because I am firmly on the high ground and want to stay King of the Mountain. That's important to me.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I've been following his story, even posted in his WW's thread advising her to take care of herself before the meltdown. But yeah, I saw the parallels and that's why I posted. Maybe this deserves a 2x4, but for some WS's I believe that the pain of losing what they threw away is real, beyond just selfish regret. Maybe these people can become committed partners after an R. But there are so many more who don't care or don't give a damn about their BS's, yet the BS still tries to R or chase after someone who threw them away. It's horrifying to watch.
> 
> I also don't get how so many BS's there are complete, wishy-washy doormats. Some have 4 or 5 D-Day's in their signatures and they are still with the cheater. I admit the prospect of divorce was scary for me, but I had no idea about the A's at the time. Being scared of what divorce costs shouldn't outweigh the gains realized by being free from a toxic relationship. Unfortunately, if I'd done a cost/benefit and ROI before getting divorced, my emotions would have clouded my analysis. I see that so clearly now. The cost of divorce is an investment in one's future. Unfortunately, the most valuable returns can't be measured so easily.
> 
> I can't read SI anymore. It is such a depressing place. It's like a train wreck, you can't help but stop and keep looking at the carnage even though it is so disturbing. Reading selected threads there and here should be mandatory before anyone decides to get married. There would be a lot more prenups.


I read one of your post their -

One thing I would say to you, you said in your post that you still wonder why you were not enough. Please stop thinking this way about love and relationships. It's just not a healthy way to think. Marriage isn't supposed to be like that. You are not supposed to fulfill someone or be anything other then their partner. They are supposed to stay faithful because they made a commitment to stay faithful. It's not as long as you make me feel good or are good enough for me I am going to stay faithful. If it was then everyone would eventually cheat because in everyone's marriage their are times when you don't feel connected.


I hope that you and everyone else who feels this way would just stop. You married your wife and you followed your pledge. She didn't. That's it. It's also why if they don't follow their pledge you should not feel guilty by saying goodbye. It's a partnership. If she expected you to be the solution to all her problems that is on her. That was never the point of the marriage. Don't buy that nonsense. I guess this is why my advice here always seems so different then lots of others. No one is enough for anyone, everyone is responsible for their own life married or not.

Anyway, just my two cents.


----------



## sokillme

Malaise said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/414937-i-know.html


I think we all thought he was a fake, because their was another story on here about a year or more earlier that was almost the same. Also it seemed to much like a narrative. I wonder if the mods here had definitive proof. It seems now some on SI are starting to sense the same thing. Lots of questions in his threads now. King of "why doesn't this smell right?" questions. 

I think we are a little more sophisticated here, where as they are quick with the sympathy. It's why we are also not as quick with the forgive and forget like a lot of people are over there. At least IMHO.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> I read one of your post their -
> 
> One thing I would say to you, you said in your post that you still wonder why you were not enough. Please stop thinking this way about love and relationships. It's just not a healthy way to think. Marriage isn't supposed to be like that. You are not supposed to fulfill someone or be anything other then their partner. They are supposed to stay faithful because they made a commitment to stay faithful. It's not as long as you make me feel good or are good enough for me I am going to stay faithful. If it was then everyone would eventually cheat because in everyone's marriage their are times when you don't feel connected.
> 
> 
> I hope that you and everyone else who feels this way would just stop. You married your wife and you followed your pledge. She didn't. That's it. It's also why if they don't follow their pledge you should not feel guilty by saying goodbye. It's a partnership. If she expected you to be the solution to all her problems that is on her. That was never the point of the marriage. Don't buy that nonsense. I guess this is why my advice here always seems so different then lots of others. No one is enough for anyone, everyone is responsible for their own life married or not.
> 
> Anyway, just my two cents.


It's a hard question not to ask yourself after you've been betrayed, but even harder question not to ask when you've lived ten years of rejection by the woman who supposedly loved you. I know that you're right, but still. The popular notion is that if a woman doesn't want intimacy or she cheats, it was because of something her man wasn't giving her. But if a man cheats he's a scumbag, it had nothing to do with what his wife wasn't giving him. That pop culture myth is so ingrained in everything, probably because of all the dribble in women's magazines and bon-bon enabling daytime talk shows. Even my counselor has gone down that road, asking what do I think that I could've done differently that would have made our marriage better, with the implication of keeping her from cheating.

Yes, I asked that question many times, but my answer is nothing. I did nothing wrong, and in fact went above and beyond in my marriage. I know how to treat a woman, and it wasn't my fault. But I did ask the question, many times.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I can't read SI anymore. It is such a depressing place. It's like a train wreck, you can't help but stop and keep looking at the carnage even though it is so disturbing. Reading selected threads there and here should be mandatory before anyone decides to get married. There would be a lot more prenups.


The one that gets me the most on there right now is hikingout, to have a 30 year marriage and have your wife cheat like she did is just TOO much. To know that you could invest so much of your life into a person and that person to not have ANY loyalty. All it took was for her to be bored and have someone tell her she was hot. She says she didn't think she would get caught. That's another one that has to be the most cold, whenever I hear that. Like if they were to never get caught it would be OK. It shows that they don't even understand the very basics of what love is, they have no dignity. I wouldn't cheat on my wife if God told me (trigger warning) himself that I would not be caught. I love and respect her too much to do something like that, and i don't want to be that type of person it would be beneath my dignity to do that. Her husband must feel like he wasted a big part of his life. 

In all her posts I don't think she gets that. They never get what it means to be the BS and have them now as your spouse, what a let down that has to be. I think they don't get it for the same reason they could do it. They just don't think like us. What I wrote in my last paragraph is beyond their thinking. 

I wish we still had the SI thread so I could post some observations I had about this. I am not starting one though as I don't want to get the flack.


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> It's a hard question not to ask yourself after you've been betrayed, but even harder question not to ask when you've lived ten years of rejection by the woman who supposedly loved you. I know that you're right, but still. The popular notion is that if a woman doesn't want intimacy or she cheats, it was because of something her man wasn't giving her. But if a man cheats he's a scumbag, it had nothing to do with what his wife wasn't giving him. That pop culture myth is so ingrained in everything, probably because of all the dribble in women's magazines and bon-bon enabling daytime talk shows. Even my counselor has gone down that road, asking what do I think that I could've done differently that would have made our marriage better, with the implication of keeping her from cheating.
> 
> Yes, I asked that question many times, but my answer is nothing. I did nothing wrong, and in fact went above and beyond in my marriage. I know how to treat a woman, and it wasn't my fault. But I did ask the question, many times.


My friend I know you know this, you don't cheat because it is the right thing to do. That's it. You don't cheat because you made a promise. It's really that simple. The best spouse in the world, (and it seems you were a pretty good one) get cheated on. And the worst one have spouses that stay loyal. It really is a question of character, a lot of that is being raised with the right morals, but of also finding the motivation to keep those morals even when it's hard. That is where character comes into it.

All this stuff sounds old fashion and passe but it's not. Now I think it's not a bad thing to look to see if you could have done better in your marriage, but nothing you did or didn't do makes it reasonable for her to cheat. Like I said in my last post, if your spouse being faithful is contingent on you fulfilling their every wish, or making their every moment happy or even just entertaining then every spouse has a right to cheat. It's why when folks come on here and their first post is, my spouse said they cheated because I was a bad spouse and they were not happy my first response is always - Well now that they have cheated on you I am sure they would agree that you can cheat now to right? After all now you have an awful spouse too. 

It doesn't work that way. 

I also think it's quite clear that your wife like lots of these types is way broken, she never grew up. She thought like an entitled child, only now is she going through what she should have been learning in a less dramatic way in her late teens. Her whole way of thinking about life was wrong. What you did wrong was marry wrong, and at the worst passively protect her from consequences by your very presence. That's it. That is what you should work on. Making sure that you pick the right one.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> The one that gets me the most on there right now is hikingout, to have a 30 year marriage and have your wife cheat like she did is just TOO much. To know that you could invest so much of your life into a person and that person to not have ANY loyalty. All it took was for her to be bored and have someone tell her she was hot. She says she didn't think she would get caught.


I don't really know her story, and that website is crazy for trying to find anything. I have no idea, for example, how to find anything other than "recent posts". I posted on one of her threads though after looking at her sig and seeing that they are almost the same ages with kids around the ages of ours. I don't think that I will ever understand the concept of not being loyal to the most important person in your life. I just don't get it. If you can't be loyal, then move on, right? OMG I could have cheated so many times during our marriage and gotten away with it, but I didn't. When I think of my XWW being bent over by OM, then me having her a short time later, it's sickening. It seems that there are people who will put service and family and others before self, then people who put themselves before everything else. I think we know which category cheaters fall into...


----------



## sokillme

Cromer said:


> I don't really know her story, and that website is crazy for trying to find anything. I have no idea, for example, how to find anything other than "recent posts". I posted on one of her threads though after looking at her sig and seeing that they are almost the same ages with kids around the ages of ours. I don't think that I will ever understand the concept of not being loyal to the most important person in your life. I just don't get it. If you can't be loyal, then move on, right? OMG I could have cheated so many times during our marriage and gotten away with it, but I didn't. When I think of my XWW being bent over by OM, then me having her a short time later, it's sickening. It seems that there are people who will put service and family and others before self, then people who put themselves before everything else. I think we know which category cheaters fall into...


I don't understand it either, but not just loyalty to our wives, how about friends, family, jobs, country, all that. Loyalty is why we wouldn't do it. I think that is a very good tell as far as who to marry. Those relationships. Do they believe and operate out of honor.

The strange thing is my Dad cheated on my Mom, and then his long term girlfriend that we all had grown to love. He would probably cheat on his wife now if he wasn't too old, though maybe both were exit affairs. But I know he thinks of himself as a moral man. And in some things he is. In so many ways we are alike, but in this way he is like another species to me. It's hard to understand what made him so different when in a lot of other ways I feel like I can read his mind we are so close in how we think, was it just choices? Did he have a moment like your wife did at that bar with a bunch of friends telling him he deserved it? Or was it always there? I don't know how people live with themselves. I just don't.

Look at you. Your ex-wife made you wait 10 years right? 10 years, and yet you were still loyal. You did the right thing and divorced her but you never cheated. You did the right thing the whole way through.

This is an interesting thought, say you had cheated in those 10 years. Lots of people wouldn't have blamed you but then say she found out. Then she may have told you what she did and you would now have been even, at least in her mind. Then you would have stayed right? You would have been miserable but knowing how you think, as I think I do, you would have tried to will yourself into staying. You would have hated yourself for cheating and would have tried to deal with her cheating like a penance. Thing is you would have also known she cheated first and with a few guys. But I still think you would have been one of these guys like the posters you read, talking about how both of you have made mistakes, but you have so much history, pretending like you were OK. You would have probably felt trapped at that point. No new girlfriend, no new life. 

So maybe doing the moral thing doesn't always force you to be a martyr after all. I have to say dude, the more I think of your story the more I feel like God had his hand on you in a way. Yeah you suffered 10 years but that was better then the rest of your life. Plus it's like I just wrote, honor was more important to you then sex so I know you would have taken the same deal again to keep your honor. Also the 10 years made you were sufficiently detached enough so that you didn't have to have the intensity that you would have had. You got the best of a very raw deal I think. 

Anyway something to think about.


----------



## Cromer

sokillme said:


> Look at you. Your ex-wife made you wait 10 years right? 10 years, and yet you were still loyal. You did the right thing and divorced her but you never cheated. You did the right thing the whole way through.


I really thought that things would change though. Looking back it was so f'd up. Before we had a great sex life. But then "it" happened and I had no idea what I was fighting against.

You're right though, I am SO glad I didn't cheat. Not only am I not wired that way, I could imagine the narrative being "Cromer cheated and divorced his wife, what a scumbag".


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## seadoug105

Taxman said:


> 2018 would be much better off here.


But he was here.... and people labeled him a troll, getting his first post and I think his second also were locked down. 

SI, may be a dark and depressing place, but (at least in his case) they were far more supportive and gave him a place to vent and get advice.


----------



## Taxman

Cromer said:


> You're right though, I am SO glad I didn't cheat. Not only am I not wired that way, I could imagine the narrative being "Cromer cheated and divorced his wife, what a scumbag".


There was only room for one scumbag in your relationship Cromer, and she was it. Now she pays for this. Good. If there is anything to Karma or retribution, then your exWW is experiencing what it is to betray, be found out and lose everything as a consequence. Let her live with her three little affairs, and judge the overwhelming cost of what she did to you. Like 2018 MLMM's wife, she can't believe the price to be paid for a strange penis between her legs. Now, that she is paying, she'd be grateful for a time machine so that she could go back and not fu ck strange men. So she can spend the rest of her life on the couch watching Jeopardy, while her ex husband has a wonderful new girlfriend, their kids adore both of them, while she is an embarrassment, her ex husband is having sex and love and fulfillment, and she is wondering if she can take Places for $100 Alex.


----------



## farsidejunky

seadoug105 said:


> But he was here.... and people labeled him a troll, getting his first post and I think his second also were locked down.
> 
> SI, may be a dark and depressing place, but (at least in his case) they were far more supportive and gave him a place to vent and get advice.


I'm still not convinced he isn't to troll.

And yes, I've read both threads.


----------



## jlg07

Cromer said:


> I've been following his story, even posted in his WW's thread advising her to take care of herself before the meltdown. But yeah, I saw the parallels and that's why I posted. Maybe this deserves a 2x4, but for some WS's I believe that the pain of losing what they threw away is real, beyond just selfish regret. Maybe these people can become committed partners after an R. But there are so many more who don't care or don't give a damn about their BS's, yet the BS still tries to R or chase after someone who threw them away. It's horrifying to watch.
> 
> I also don't get how so many BS's there are complete, wishy-washy doormats. Some have 4 or 5 D-Day's in their signatures and they are still with the cheater. I admit the prospect of divorce was scary for me, but I had no idea about the A's at the time. Being scared of what divorce costs shouldn't outweigh the gains realized by being free from a toxic relationship. Unfortunately, if I'd done a cost/benefit and ROI before getting divorced, my emotions would have clouded my analysis. I see that so clearly now. The cost of divorce is an investment in one's future. Unfortunately, the most valuable returns can't be measured so easily.
> 
> I can't read SI anymore. It is such a depressing place. It's like a train wreck, you can't help but stop and keep looking at the carnage even though it is so disturbing. Reading selected threads there and here should be mandatory before anyone decides to get married. There would be a lot more prenups.


Can someone post the link to 2018? There is no general search function on SI (at least that I can find.... if anyone knows how to search for subjects or users there, please PM me...)


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## Chuck71

Taxman said:


> I don't know how people stay there and post. SI is one of the more toxic ones. I was on about two years ago, and my story actually infuriated one of the mods. I wasn't sure what their story was, but I received a warning when I posted my story. I PM'd the mod, who again warned me that my story, or rather what happened, was inappropriate for their site. I kinda lost it, and told him or her where to go and how to get there. I was told to f' off, and banned. I have been told their mods get a bug up the ass and will ban for anything that offends them.
> 
> 2018 would be much better off here. His wife would def. be better off here. OK, ok ok, she f*cked up big time, and flushed her entire life in one motion. The 2x4's were there. Followed by discovery that the affair was even stupider, as the AP had another chippy. So she pissed her world away for nothing, nada, gornischt, sweet f*ck all. When you look at Webster's dictionary under stupid, her picture is there.


Been almost two years ago.... I had a friend post his story here. But for some reason he was not able

to sign on, after 4-5 tries. Must have been a wide IP ban. I knew quite a few posters here were also

at the other place I recommended. Can't recall if it was LS or SI.... but "lord" William was the mod.

The guy made his post, twice... and it was removed. He too messaged the mod. He sent some gibberish

that he nor I could decipher. His OP was simply a gut feeling about a girl he was dating and he

felt she had one foot in the door and one foot out but wanted him "all aboard."

By the time I conferred with a mod, he had figured it out, for the most part. He still would like to know

why, for future use of course. There were similar threads here so I sent those to him.

The Hangover Crew too helped him out but I still think he would have gotten more out of the

situation, hearing from a variety of posters. I almost posted his story myself and just explained 

it was not me, but a friend. In hindsight... I should have.


----------



## Chuck71

Cromer said:


> It's a hard question not to ask yourself after you've been betrayed, but even harder question not to ask when you've lived ten years of rejection by the woman who supposedly loved you. I know that you're right, but still. The popular notion is that if a woman doesn't want intimacy or she cheats, it was because of something her man wasn't giving her. But if a man cheats he's a scumbag, it had nothing to do with what his wife wasn't giving him. That pop culture myth is so ingrained in everything, probably because of all the dribble in women's magazines and bon-bon enabling daytime talk shows. Even my counselor has gone down that road, asking what do I think that I could've done differently that would have made our marriage better, with the implication of keeping her from cheating.
> 
> Yes, I asked that question many times, but my answer is nothing. I did nothing wrong, and in fact went above and beyond in my marriage. I know how to treat a woman, and it wasn't my fault. But I did ask the question, many times.


The way people allow social media to dictate their lives still baffle me. My colleagues and I, our doctorate studies were not in the area to address this... except for the senior seminar class. Granted all of us were in our 30s and 40s and grew up before social media became a religion.

There were two females in the group... talk about slicing through this women empowerment movement. I thought assimilation was bad back in the 1980s and 1990s.... how wrong I was. I can't count the times I would ask females after they told me they had jitters about getting M to their XH.... -well everyone else was doing it, all my friends were- Exact same response for having kids. Mom received a ton of flack for waiting to have kids, until 27... early 70s. Her two older sisters had two each during their teens.

Today people are pressured to not have children until 30-35..... then you hear about reproductive issues. From people I know...who did family trees back to the 1800s or earlier, it was commonplace to have 5-7 kids...... while many fathers drank hard liquor daily and cleaned meat in poor ways. The wives gave birth with only rudimentary techniques (compared to today) but delivered babies into their late 30s / early 40s. My old boss at the newspaper, he was a WW2 baby, he summed it up -Today humans are educated beyond their intelligence-

I don't see it getting any better. Scary to a degree. When I taught in the public school system, my field was special education. This covered students from gifted....to SED, severe emotional disorders. I follow some of my students on FB... not friends, don't have to be. Everything they post.....is public. His younger sister became preggo at 15, guy tried to step up best he could. During her pregnancy... there were four guys who were posting things on her page. A huge flurry, then *poof*.

As adults we pretty much know what happened. The dad now wants a DNA, his family is all in her crap, calling DHS almost daily. The mom (16).... goes off on his family, course she has 8-10 friends egging her on. Yes most are HS dropouts, have kids themselves, near same age. Month before due date, posted her "new love." Course the dad (17) went off. Currently there's a new guy...she has several people staying with her who party and do pills / drugs. She has them "watch" the baby while she goes out with her guy or she can spend time with her guy.

The dad will pop up every now and then. Few days they exchange likes and pleasantries. He disappears about the time another guy starts posting all over her thread. But she will make sure to post 11 pics of the kid almost daily. This is a learned behavior. They don't know any other way. A day without drama is like a day without FB. But this is common for people born after the 1980s. Sometimes I wonder what pop or my grandmother would say about how things are.

I am more and more thankful I grew up in the 1970s and had my puberty crap in the 1980s. No cable, video games weren't as popular, you got on your bike... rode the neighborhood and hung out with your friends. If there was a new family moving in and they had a son near our age, we would all ride up, intro ourselves. If he had a bike, we would show him around the neighborhood. Parents didn't know us from a frozen corn dog.... but they didn't think one second about not allowing him. No worries about their son getting lost, beaten, kidnapped. 

I've noticed..... when I wonder back to my childhood, it reminds me more and more of a Twilight Zone episode.... A Trip to Willoughby.


----------



## Cromer

Update! I am engaged. I know it's crazy but it's true. We're living together and waiting a year before getting married. I can't believe how blessed I've been in all of this, how it seemed like destiny meeting her so soon after the divorce. I had vowed never to marry but here it is, a thing in my life again. I love her, we're living together, and life is great. There IS life after betrayal and divorce.


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## Edmund

Cromer said:


> Update! I am engaged. I know it's crazy but it's true. We're living together and waiting a year before getting married. I can't believe how blessed I've been in all of this, how it seemed like destiny meeting her so soon after the divorce. I had vowed never to marry but here it is, a thing in my life again. I love her, we're living together, and life is great. There IS life after betrayal and divorce.


Hey Cromer, I hope I am the first person to say congratulations! It is early morning on the east coast and I watched the All Star game a few hours ago (AL won again boo hiss, but many home runs - a record number) and I am going to hit the sack soon. Wishing you both the best of everything!


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## Decorum

Congrads Cromer.

Pre-nup ?


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## Decorum

Thanks!


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## sunsetmist

You are a legend. I am a newbie who has slogged through your whole thread. It was a therapeutic slog. Congratulations many times over. I'm honored to have a better understanding of the mind of a genuinely good man. Don't find many like you. (I, too, endured a marriage I did not deserve and recognize myself in the analysis that seemed to come creeping back.) YAY for you!!


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> Update! I am engaged. I know it's crazy but it's true. We're living together and waiting a year before getting married. I can't believe how blessed I've been in all of this, how it seemed like destiny meeting her so soon after the divorce. I had vowed never to marry but here it is, a thing in my life again. I love her, we're living together, and life is great. There IS life after betrayal and divorce.


Called it. 

Now I will call this. I think it was meant to be. Just don't either one of you take it for granted. 

Good luck dude!


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## SGr

Congrats. Never Say Never!

Sent from my 6045O using Tapatalk


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## Cromer

sunsetmist said:


> You are a legend. I am a newbie who has slogged through your whole thread. It was a therapeutic slog. Congratulations many times over. I'm honored to have a better understanding of the mind of a genuinely good man. Don't find many like you. (I, too, endured a marriage I did not deserve and recognize myself in the analysis that seemed to come creeping back.) YAY for you!!


I appreciate the kind words. Looking back over everything, it is just so crazy. My life, the soap opera. But, time moves us along and all we can do is make the best decisions we can within our principles and moral framework. It doesn't always work out but so far, for the first time in a long time, I am very happy about what's ahead.

I also got the news that I'm gonna be a grampa. Now, how cool is that!!! :smthumbup::surprise::toast:


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## Cromer

Decorum said:


> Congrads Cromer.
> 
> Pre-nup ?


There were three things I asked before saying yes:

- Had to wait at least year
- Had to live together during that year
- Prenup geared towards protecting our children's legacies while providing for the last one standing if the marriage is successful

She agreed without hesitation. She has her own assets and a career, so for her, it was almost a relief too. She never would've brought it up though.


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## Decorum

Cromer said:


> There were three things I asked before saying yes:
> 
> - Had to wait at least year
> - Had to live together during that year
> - Prenup geared towards protecting our children's legacies while providing for the last one standing if the marriage is successful
> 
> She agreed without hesitation. She has her own assets and a career, so for her, it was almost a relief too. She never would've brought it up though.


Yeah, sorry, I read that after I asked that. I think I was reading backwards. Ha ha.

Thanks for answering.
Congrads again, glad for some good news on here!
Take care.


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> There were three things I asked before saying yes:
> 
> - Had to wait at least year
> - Had to live together during that year
> - Prenup geared towards protecting our children's legacies while providing for the last one standing if the marriage is successful
> 
> She agreed without hesitation. She has her own assets and a career, so for her, it was almost a relief too. She never would've brought it up though.


I know I might not be your favorite person right now but you might want to add an out in case of infidelity. I know perish the thought, but you read here enough to know, you never really know.


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## Cromer

sokillme said:


> I know I might not be your favorite person right now but you might want to add an out in case of infidelity. I know perish the thought, but you read here enough to know, you never really know.


I'm sure she would go for that, it would give us both peace considering where we've been.


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## Thor

I can't stress enough the importance of using a trust instead of a will if your goal is to protect your children's legacy. You can easily provide for your spouse if she outlives you and yet still protect your heirs. You cannot guarantee this if you use a will.

A will is a simple gift, so if you die first she gets everything. Let's say your will and her will both say "If my spouse is still alive, he/she gets everything. If they pre-decease me, everything gets dividing equally amongst the children A,B,C,D from our first marriages". That looks pretty good. Your children A and B will each get 25% of the final estate, and her children C and D will each get 25%.

*Until the surviving spouse changes their will to write the other's kids out of the will*. This happened in my family, with my lost share being in the millions. The surviving second wife of my relative changed her will immediately after inheriting his estate, writing us out of it and sending everything to her side of the family instead.

A trust can be structured, using a good attorney, to accomplish precisely what you desire. However you want to make things go, you can lock it in with a trust.

I'm sure my relative loved and trusted his second wife. I'm sure he had no inkling she would do what she did. It doesn't have to be your spouse who sets out to cheat your heirs, it could be one of her heirs takes advantage of her when she is becoming feeble in her old age by getting her to change her will. But that can't happen with a trust. Even if you are decidedly middle class you can get great benefit from a trust.


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## Wolfman1968

Thor said:


> I can't stress enough the importance of using a trust instead of a will if your goal is to protect your children's legacy. You can easily provide for your spouse if she outlives you and yet still protect your heirs. You cannot guarantee this if you use a will.
> 
> A will is a simple gift, so if you die first she gets everything. Let's say your will and her will both say "If my spouse is still alive, he/she gets everything. If they pre-decease me, everything gets dividing equally amongst the children A,B,C,D from our first marriages". That looks pretty good. Your children A and B will each get 25% of the final estate, and her children C and D will each get 25%.
> 
> *Until the surviving spouse changes their will to write the other's kids out of the will*. This happened in my family, with my lost share being in the millions. The surviving second wife of my relative changed her will immediately after inheriting his estate, writing us out of it and sending everything to her side of the family instead.
> 
> A trust can be structured, using a good attorney, to accomplish precisely what you desire. However you want to make things go, you can lock it in with a trust.
> 
> I'm sure my relative loved and trusted his second wife. I'm sure he had no inkling she would do what she did. It doesn't have to be your spouse who sets out to cheat your heirs, it could be one of her heirs takes advantage of her when she is becoming feeble in her old age by getting her to change her will. But that can't happen with a trust. Even if you are decidedly middle class you can get great benefit from a trust.


Very wise words.


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## sadandlonely5

https://www.amazon.com/Living-Trust...rd_wg=uiOsy&psc=1&refRID=DDNB1EZPJ195HN8ZJRH8

https://www.amazon.com/Estate-Planning-Dead-Protection-Consumers/dp/1975780752

There is so much new information currently regarding legal changes, compliance and financial changes that you should definitely speak to an estate planning attorney and read some books like the one linked above. A will is typically basic, and does not cover you in a lot of circumstances, and does nothing to spell out your wishes or protect your children and your estate if you are incapacitated but not dead. You should look into a living trust, which will allow protection of your assets even if you are not dead, but incapacitated or otherwise unable to handle your assets yourself, and to avoid probate. Most boilerplate wills and trusts only cover basic situations if you die, but there are many grey areas that are not covered. You could assign your children as beneficiaries with a sibling or other trusted family member as trustee until the children turn 18 or 21.


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## cashcratebob

Man, so happy you came out better on the other end of this storm.

This situation definitely gets added to my "if the sh!t stinks" bin...


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## Cromer

Hey all. Sorry about ghosting but I got doxxed bigtime to family and the drama was bad, so I just stopped posting. Someone started after me on FB, long story but it's done and frankly now IDGAF. A few days ago I was thinking about all of the amazing support I received here during my darkest hours and wanted to log in to say hello. Not to mention, bored. This lockdown...

I'm married, have a beautiful granddaughter, and we're both living the "almost" retired life. My wife will teach this last year and take early retirement, but since she's been doing classes (and summer classes) remotely we've gotten used to being together all of the time LOL. I converted one of the bedrooms into a studio and it's all geared to making her remote teaching easier. Her house is a now a managed rental property which gives her additional income. Once this damn plague is done we plan to do a lot of traveling.

All of my kids are talking to their mother now, but it was like moving mountains to get our youngest to forgive her. My XWW and I do talk and she is physically fine after her injuries but in some pain still, but she's not the same person. I saw her last month and she looks like a shell of herself. She's lost so much weight that she lost her curves. I'm not sure how to feel about her except sad. She does have a sorta boyfriend according to DD1 but I don't pry. I admit that I still do things to take care of her (i.e. a couple of handyman house projects, help with her taxes, supplemental insurance) when she really needs it. I just can't completely abandon the mother of my amazing children, and my wife understands. Surprisingly my wife and XWW get along well now. My wife is such an amazing woman and I still can't believe what she endured from her asshole XH. He really lost out. Long story but when he realized what I was willing to do for her he backed off and went back into his hole.

On a positive note, I didn't have to sell the house and property. My XWW gave up her half so I could keep my workshop. When the plague started I built a "shake shack" on the other end of the property, ran electric, dug a well there, put in a fire pit, and internet. We use that as our "mini getaway" together and it's like playing house. Not sure what the next owners of this property will use it for but it's a fun distraction during the lockdown. I was bored and needed a project.

Again, I want to thank everyone for all of the support when my life was falling apart in a way that seemed too crazy to be true.

Cromer


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## shortbus

Good for you buddy, glad to see that things are going well.


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## WandaJ

Yeswecan said:


> You are alone now even in the same room as your W. What will be different when separated?


Freedom and hope


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## sokillme

This thread is now in the HOF. as an example to help others and give hope.


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## farsidejunky

It is great to hear from you, brother. 

What a fantastic update.

Continue being great. The world is your oyster. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## 3Xnocharm

I’m so glad you came back to update and I’m so happy for you. I went back and read your entire thread again, it’s taken me most of the weekend lol... I can remember when you were going through everything here. 

You mentioned the ex wife having injuries.. what was that about? Maybe I missed something..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cromer

3Xnocharm said:


> I’m so glad you came back to update and I’m so happy for you. I went back and read your entire thread again, it’s taken me most of the weekend lol... I can remember when you were going through everything here.
> 
> You mentioned the ex wife having injuries.. what was that about? Maybe I missed something..


Thank you! When I was dating my wife, XWW's friend did some snooping, got pics of us on an island trip off of fb, then they went out to talk crap about us apparently. Both got liquored up, XWW drove home drunk, and got into a very bad accident. I think I posted about in the private forum.


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## Chuck71

Great to hear things are going well for you. You freaking deserved this. 

The poetic justice in your case is...you felt like crap for awhile.....and pushed through it...by no choice of your own.

Her.....by her choice, will live in regret and misery. Knowing she had it all and threw it away.

A parable to read by contemplating WW/WH.


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## bandit.45

Cromer you are the better man for continuing to show grace to your XWW. If I recall she was especially cruel towards you. I think she will grow old sheathed in regret for what she threw away.

Hey did you ever buy that sex swing?


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## Cromer

bandit.45 said:


> Cromer you are the better man for continuing to show grace to your XWW. If I recall she was especially cruel towards you. I think she will grow old sheathed in regret for what she threw away.
> 
> Hey did you ever buy that sex swing?


During the lockdown we built a "getaway" with electric, internet, and water at the other end of the property. There's a swing and a few other things in there...


----------



## Galabar01

Just read this entire thread. Wow.

Cromer, I'm not a very forgiving person, but there are some lessons to be learned from your experience. I wonder if I can find it within myself to be a bit more magnanimous and kind in my interactions with others. Thanks!


----------



## Evinrude58

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> My story is pretty much identical to yours (not totally sexless, but there is a HUGE disconnect there).
> 
> Have you considered the whole picture rather than looking at the sexual dissatisfaction in isolation?
> 
> Even if you set aside the morality of abandoning your vows and look at this in purely selfish terms, do you really think that, at this stage in life, you're going to find a better overall situation? Really, how likely do you think it may be that you'll find a good person who you care for, a loving partner, _and _great sex?
> 
> Just look at the sex thing in isolation for a minute. *Most women have less drive than men to begin with.* Add to that your age--you're going to be looking at a small group to begin with (not married), and they will largely be menopausal, likely complicating an already difficult sexual situation even further. How likely are you to find a great sexual partner at this stage? This is going to be exceedingly rare. And, assuming you actually find such a gem, what are the odds she'll be up to snuff in all the other areas you already have today?
> 
> Tread carefully, friend. Remember the story about the dog with the bone looking at his reflection in the lake.


I haven’t found what you’ve said to be true. Not saying you’re wrong, but I haven’t found it to be this way myself. Yes, it will be difficult but not impossible. I can’t tell him what to do, but I don’t have a lot of compassion for a woman who has knowingly made this man celibate for ten years and is happy as a lark.
He sleeps with a cold pillow every night. It’s about time he held a warm body.
She hasn’t cared that he was suffering. It is what it is.


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## Cynthia

Evinrude58 said:


> I haven’t found what you’ve said to be true. Not saying you’re wrong, but I haven’t found it to be this way myself. Yes, it will be difficult but not impossible. I can’t tell him what to do, but I don’t have a lot of compassion for a woman who has knowingly made this man celibate for ten years and is happy as a lark.
> He sleeps with a cold pillow every night. It’s about time he held a warm body.
> She hasn’t cared that he was suffering. It is what it is.


 @Cromer divorced his his wife and has moved on. It turns out that the trouble started when she had an affair 10+ years before. 
This is an old thread. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Cromer

Galabar01 said:


> Just read this entire thread. Wow.
> 
> Cromer, I'm not a very forgiving person, but there are some lessons to be learned from your experience. I wonder if I can find it within myself to be a bit more magnanimous and kind in my interactions with others. Thanks!


Thanks. I'm sure that reading this thread was quite a slog. Looking back, I loved my ex and simply wanted to keep my family together and waited until our son was out of the house to make my move. When I first posted here I had no idea about the crap show that awaited me other than I was done with being in a sexless marriage. However, I also wanted to be fair to her.

It didn't take long for an amazing lady to snatch me from the single's market and we are having a blast. I think for the first time in her adult life she feels truly safe to be the person she is, and I am happy to be there for her for whatever she needs. She is a teacher and after this academic year she will retire early then the fun will really begin! Her daughter has basically adopted me as her dad, and my relationship with my biological children is as strong as ever. I am personally proud of the fact that they never saw anything from me other than respect for their mother. 

My ex seems to be doing well but remains single and now has several cats. I know that sounds so cliché and I'm not mentioning it to be derogatory. She's just lonely. I see her on occasion and fix things at her place once in a while as a handyman when my daughter asks. She gained, then lost, so much weight. She is so thin now that she's lost her curves.

My ex is friendly with my wife when we go over there, yes I know I should just go no contact but my ex is such a troubled soul and my kids appreciate that I "sorta" look after her. My wife actually encourages me to support my ex like this (she insists that it's the Christian thing to do). I don't hold any hate for my ex and hope that she finds someone.


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## Kamstel2

Cromer, how many grandchildren are you up to?

what ever happened to your friend that discovered his wife had an affair, and he intimately ended up living on a boat with much younger woman? Did the start a family? How is his ex?

How was the kids weddings?

glad to read that things are going so well. Enjoy making plansfor after wife’s retirement


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## Galabar01

My advice: whatever interactions you plan on having with the Ex, cut it by 75% (if you can)...


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## Cynthia

Galabar01 said:


> My advice: whatever interactions you plan on having with the Ex, cut it by 75% (if you can)...


He and his new wife seem to be doing very well. Normally I would agree, but the ex-wife obviously poses no threat and is a broken woman. @Cromer, your wife has a good and loving heart. I'm glad you found each other.


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## drencrom

Yeswecan said:


> I concur. However, this poor woman is about to get hit by a oncoming freight train that is steaming at her back. OP appears to be basking in the glow of planning without his W knowledge.


Well after years of being denied sex and counseling and she refuses to do anything, what do you expect him to do? 

What CAN he do in your opinion? Resort to porn? Cheat?(which I would be jumping his s**t if he was considering that).

What?


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## drencrom

Edit, realized this is a zombie thread pretty much.


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## Kamstel2

don’t consider it a Zombie Thread.

Cromer comes back every now and again. His last time was just 2 days ago. Although now it is more of him giving updates to those who are interested.

He is a good man that dealt very well to insane situations in an honorable manned. He is a man that his friends and children know they can rely on.


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## Galabar01

drencrom said:


> Edit, realized this is a zombie thread pretty much.


I read through the thread just a couples of weeks ago. It is a thread deserving of a sticky (or at least a monthly bump).


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## drencrom

Kamstel2 said:


> don’t consider it a Zombie Thread.
> 
> Cromer comes back every now and again.


Got it. I just saw the original date of the one I replied and thought, geez, I'm gonna get dragged for reviving it, LOL


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## Cromer

Hey @Kamstel2, hope you are well! Let's see:

*Cromer, how many grandchildren are you up to? *

Soon to be three! The wife is in full grandma mode.

*what ever happened to your friend that discovered his wife had an affair, and he intimately ended up living on a boat with much younger woman? Did the start a family? How is his ex?*

They are still together living on his boat. We visited them this summer and his gf is very intelligent, loves running their business, is madly in love with him, and is stunningly gorgeous. I swear 90% of her wardrobe is bikinis, that's all she wore for a week. Also, he has gotten so buff. The dog. Keys Life. They are planning to winter over in the Bahamas after hurricane season ends on Nov 30.

Haven't heard from his ex in a while. They sold the house and last I heard she moved in with her mother.

*How was the kids weddings?*

Amazing. Thankfully no drama. My daughter from another father is preggers, they didn't wait!

*glad to read that things are going so well. Enjoy making plansfor after wife’s retirement*

Thanks. We were planning to have her retire after this last year, but because of ongoing restrictions in areas that we want to visit she decided to work this year. We're planning for next summer but we're also playing it by ear.


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## Kamstel2

Fantastic news about the grandkids. 
Have fantastic time spoiling each of them, especially this Christmas.


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## Cromer

Cynthia said:


> He and his new wife seem to be doing very well. Normally I would agree, but the ex-wife obviously poses no threat and is a broken woman. @Cromer, your wife has a good and loving heart. I'm glad you found each other.


She does have a good and loving heart, and I can't imagine the why behind how some in her past treated her. I still can't believe how we ended up together. She was just done with relationships and so was I at the time. She's told me several times how safe she feels and I don't take that for granted.

For my ex-wife, absolutely no threat there. She's accepted my wife and they get along rather well. We don't see her that often. She's not clinging to hope or doing crazy social media stalkery stuff anymore. I know she's lonely though and as I mentioned before I hope that she finds a good someone. All of the kids are talking to her regularly and it was good to see her and our son getting along so well at his wedding.

Edited: My ex LOVES being a grandma, that is one big bright spot in her life.


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## Kamstel2

Hopefully your wife didn’t catch you looking at the friend’s bikini-clad girlfriend. LOL


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## Cromer

Kamstel2 said:


> Hopefully your wife didn’t catch you looking at the friend’s bikini-clad girlfriend. LOL


Not gonna lie, I was looking. But my wife also spent most of that trip in bikinis and she rocks it. I noticed my friend looking at her on more than one occasion, so I call it a draw. She's of Mediterranean heritage and after a day or two in the sun, she is a tanned beauty. I'm a white boy who can't tan so imagine the picture heh.


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## Galabar01

Cromer, how goes life?


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## Cromer

Galabar01 said:


> Cromer, how goes life?


I'm the most content that I've been in my life. It's not that I'm happy about what my ex-wife did, but if she hadn't I wouldn't be with my wife, who is such a selfless and devoted family woman. Our family is strong.


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## Divinely Favored

Cromer said:


> I'm the most content that I've been in my life. It's not that I'm happy about what my ex-wife did, but if she hadn't I wouldn't be with my wife, who is such a selfless and devoted family woman. Our family is strong.


My wife and i both say that if we were back to square 1 with Ex's, we would gladly go through the pain and heartache all over again to get back to each other. We just wish we had met 10 yrs earlier at HS age. Would have stopped alot of pain and suffering on both of us. But how often does the Sr. Girl go for the Freshman boy? As a freshman the boys look at the Sr girls like they are some kind of sexual goddesses and the girls see the Freshman boys as court jesters.

But i think the Lord knew i would have shot her dad...would have made for awkward family gatherings with brothers, so He waited till dad nixed himself to put us together.


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## joannacroc

Cromer said:


> I'm the most content that I've been in my life. It's not that I'm happy about what my ex-wife did, but if she hadn't I wouldn't be with my wife, who is such a selfless and devoted family woman. Our family is strong.


That's pretty awesome! Glad that you and your wife are so happy together. How're your kids faring?


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## Cromer

joannacroc said:


> That's pretty awesome! Glad that you and your wife are so happy together. How're your kids faring?


Such a complicated question! But our kids are doing very well. Thanks for asking. 

I've gone from having three kids to four. We're doing an adult adoption of my wife's daughter, long story but all of us want her and her future children to have the same benefits and recognition as my children and grandchildren when I'm gone. My other kids support this decision. She's long wanted nothing to do with her biological father, doesn't need his permission, and I love her so much. Yes, we could achieve this by other means (estate planning) but we have this option in our state even if it's mostly symbolic. She was not doing well when I first met my wife but she's done a 180 and is achieving her potential as a new wife, soon-to-be mother, and career woman. This should be finalized next month. 

I also love being a grandad of "almost" three (number three will be here soon). I'm a sucker for kids and especially girls. My wife jokes that one of the reasons that she loves me so much is how I let "my girls" wrap me around their fingers and love the fact that my daughters are daddy's girls LOL. They are amazing and accomplished women with good men in their lives.

I'm also proud of how my son has become such a responsible, hardworking, and family-oriented young man who is devoted to his new wife who we adore. I always held him to a higher standard than my daughters, and looking back it wasn't fair but he needed it.

I'm blessed beyond belief.


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## jonty30

Cromer said:


> I'm the most content that I've been in my life. It's not that I'm happy about what my ex-wife did, but if she hadn't I wouldn't be with my wife, who is such a selfless and devoted family woman. Our family is strong.


I read your entire thread and I must say that you may very well be the most honourable male here.
You handled your situation in a way that made it impossible to have any regrets.


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## Galabar01

Cromer, what is your advice for everyone on here he is currently "stuck" with a cheating spouse?


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## Cromer

Galabar01 said:


> Cromer, what is your advice for everyone on here he is currently "stuck" with a cheating spouse?


Get out. Whatever the cost.

I'm not sure what to say but here it is unfiltered. For me, I was mentally "stuck" for years blinded by love but didn't know she was a cheater. I really loved and adored my ex-wife and was devoted to her.

When I decided to divorce, I put myself first for the first time in my life. My life is so much better today and I have no regrets. My wife is amazing and we take care of each other.

No human should be "stuck" with anyone. Whether it is financially or emotionally, someone being "stuck" in a relationship is a state of mind. For me, getting out of my first marriage cost a lot and I knew it would, but I refused to be "stuck" in a sexless marriage and took a leap that was incredibly life-changing.

My advice, which I am very hesitant to give...f*** being stuck. Put yourself first in your life and if a woman loves and respects you and wants to go along for the ride, then hold onto her, protect her, and respect her like no other. She is a true life partner. I love my wife and it's not by accident. Maybe not quite the answer you're looking for but I'm basically a newlywed and admire my amazing wife. She's been so important to my recovery. Her story is much more traumatic than mine and I'm very privileged to be a part of her healing.


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## Cromer

jonty30 said:


> I read your entire thread and I must say that you may very well be the most honourable male here.
> You handled your situation in a way that made it impossible to have any regrets.


There are many honorable people here, and I am thankful for their support over the past few years. Regarding regrets...

I don't have regrets for putting my family or the original woman in my life first. I built my world around them. What I mean is that for me, my entire life meaning was my wife and children. My career was just a means to help them prosper and that made me so happy. I can't emphasize enough how being a provider and the man in our family gave meaning to my life.

But now I put myself first and have an amazing wife who has joined me on this journey. She readily admits that she doesn't want to lead and she tells me that she's the happiest she's ever been. Career-wise she owns it but at home she just wants me to be in charge and it works for us.

I lost many years of intimacy but I don't regret it. I am first, foremost, and always a dedicated family man and so far, the way our children have succeeded bears that out. For my ex-wife, I never disrespected her or wanted her to suffer. I know that our children are grateful that I never disrespected or abandoned their mother. In small ways, I still take care of her and my children appreciate it.

My ex-wife is not only the mother of my children. I spent most of my adult life with her as my partner. I genuinely like her to this day. She's a fun person to be with and has a great sense of humor. If our lives hadn't been upended by her cheating, we'd still be together. She is not a bad person, just a person who made bad decisions.


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## jonty30

Cromer said:


> There are many honorable people here, and I am thankful for their support over the past few years. Regarding regrets...
> 
> I don't have regrets for putting my family or the original woman in my life first. I built my world around them. What I mean is that for me, my entire life meaning was my wife and children. My career was just a means to help them prosper and that made me so happy. I can't emphasize enough how being a provider and the man in our family gave meaning to my life.
> 
> But now I put myself first and have an amazing wife who has joined me on this journey. She readily admits that she doesn't want to lead and she tells me that she's the happiest she's ever been. Career-wise she owns it but at home she just wants me to be in charge and it works for us.
> 
> I lost many years of intimacy but I don't regret it. I am first, foremost, and always a dedicated family man and so far, the way our children have succeeded bears that out. For my ex-wife, I never disrespected her or wanted her to suffer. I know that our children are grateful that I never disrespected or abandoned their mother. In small ways, I still take care of her and my children appreciate it.
> 
> My ex-wife is not only the mother of my children. I spent most of my adult life with her as my partner. I genuinely like her to this day. She's a fun person to be with and has a great sense of humor. If our lives hadn't been upended by her cheating, we'd still be together. She is not a bad person, just a person who made bad decisions.


There are many good people here, very well most of them.
I'm just saying that optimized the possibilities of how to handle your situation. Nobody could have done it better than you.
I'm sure she is an otherwise good person. She just deceived herself as to what she was doing.


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## Divinely Favored

Cromer said:


> There are many honorable people here, and I am thankful for their support over the past few years. Regarding regrets...
> 
> I don't have regrets for putting my family or the original woman in my life first. I built my world around them. What I mean is that for me, my entire life meaning was my wife and children. My career was just a means to help them prosper and that made me so happy. I can't emphasize enough how being a provider and the man in our family gave meaning to my life.
> 
> But now I put myself first and have an amazing wife who has joined me on this journey. She readily admits that she doesn't want to lead and she tells me that she's the happiest she's ever been. Career-wise she owns it but at home she just wants me to be in charge and it works for us.
> 
> I lost many years of intimacy but I don't regret it. I am first, foremost, and always a dedicated family man and so far, the way our children have succeeded bears that out. For my ex-wife, I never disrespected her or wanted her to suffer. I know that our children are grateful that I never disrespected or abandoned their mother. In small ways, I still take care of her and my children appreciate it.
> 
> My ex-wife is not only the mother of my children. I spent most of my adult life with her as my partner. I genuinely like her to this day. She's a fun person to be with and has a great sense of humor. If our lives hadn't been upended by her cheating, we'd still be together. She is not a bad person, just a person who made bad decisions.


Well said. My wife is same, she does not like the stress related to making the big decisions. She wants me to make the decisions and stand by them as a man should and she will follow my lead. She is perfectly capable but rather tends to defer to me for reassurance on many lessor decisions.


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## Cromer

Divinely Favored said:


> Well said. My wife is same, she does not like the stress related to making the big decisions. She wants me to make the decisions and stand by them as a man should and she will follow my lead. She is perfectly capable but rather tends to defer to me for reassurance on many lessor decisions.


Yes! This is my wife. She's amazing and perfectly capable as you say, but she wants to be cared for, makes no apologies about it, and I am happy to be there for her. For example...and this may seem weird but it isn't for us...

Last year we were buying a new car for her. When we ended up in the finance office they refused the initial price I had negotiated because I sprung on them that we're paying cash and wouldn't pay their crazy admin fee. I said "we're done here" and grabbed my wife's hand and walked out of the office. Before we got to our car the owner chased us down and agreed to our price sans administrative fees. My wife told me she had no idea this is what someone should do when negotiating a car price and was giddy about what happened. She was so turned on that we didn't make it home before she was in my pants and we went at it at a boat dock not far from our home. She still tells me how it turned her on so much to see me take on the dealership and how her car reminds her of how I stood up for her. I'm not saying that women can't stand up for themselves, not at all. But it feels damn good as a man for my wife to recognize and appreciate what I'm willing to do for her in life. I know it's a small thing but it is so important to her.

Edited: My wife was single for years before we married. She is perfectly capable of taking care of herself. But I love and appreciate the fact that she wants me to take care of her and find validation in her deference to my decisions because she trusts me. She "submits" (Biblical sense) to me leading our relationship and tells me that she's happier than she's been for most of her life. I am devoted to her and want nothing more than for her to be happy.


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## Fly With Me

I have just read this whole thread across two days and was on tenterhooks the whole time praying you would get your happily ever after. 

You are a good man and I am sure you have restored many people's faith in humanity. I am so very happy for you. 

This thread should be required reading for anyone wanting to know how to conduct themselves with honour and integrity in the face of extreme and heart rending circumstances. 

It sounds crazy but I want to thankyou for being who you are and allowing others to see that. Your family are very blessed to have you. These last few posts brought me to tears to see how generous your heart is even to your ex.

Bless you muchly!


----------



## Divinely Favored

Cromer said:


> Yes! This is my wife. She's amazing and perfectly capable as you say, but she wants to be cared for, makes no apologies about it, and I am happy to be there for her. For example...and this may seem weird but it isn't for us...
> 
> Last year we were buying a new car for her. When we ended up in the finance office they refused the initial price I had negotiated because I sprung on them that we're paying cash and wouldn't pay their crazy admin fee. I said "we're done here" and grabbed my wife's hand and walked out of the office. Before we got to our car the owner chased us down and agreed to our price sans administrative fees. My wife told me she had no idea this is what someone should do when negotiating a car price and was giddy about what happened. She was so turned on that we didn't make it home before she was in my pants and we went at it at a boat dock not far from our home. She still tells me how it turned her on so much to see me take on the dealership and how her car reminds her of how I stood up for her. I'm not saying that women can't stand up for themselves, not at all. But it feels damn good as a man for my wife to recognize and appreciate what I'm willing to do for her in life. I know it's a small thing but it is so important to her.
> 
> Edited: My wife was single for years before we married. She is perfectly capable of taking care of herself. But I love and appreciate the fact that she wants me to take care of her and find validation in her deference to my decisions because she trusts me. She "submits" (Biblical sense) to me leading our relationship and tells me that she's happier than she's been for most of her life. I am devoted to her and want nothing more than for her to be happy.


Looks like both our wives were cut from the same cloth. My wife is pissed about all the womens lib/feminazi stuff in society now. She said she wished she knew who started all this crap so she could whip their ass. Wife works but to her her primary want is being a wife to me and a mother to our boys. In that order.


----------



## Cromer

Divinely Favored said:


> Looks like both our wives were cut from the same cloth. My wife is pissed about all the womens lib/feminazi stuff in society now. She said she wished she knew who started all this crap so she could whip their ass. Wife works but to her her primary want is being a wife to me and a mother to our boys. In that order.


This is not only how my wife feels, but my daughters and daughter-in-law. They have completely rejected the modern feminist movement that sees men as the enemy, wants to disrupt the family unit, and espouses sex as a commodity or as meaningless as a handshake. Thankfully all of them are very happy in marriages with good, supportive men. All of them believe in the family unit and commitment, which is one of my proudest parental achievements. My wife doesn't have to work but loves what she does. She knows that she will be a "kept woman" when she does retire next year (at 50). I am thankful to be in a position to take care of my wife and enjoy life on our terms. I will take care of and protect her until my dying day. Well...as long as she approves!


----------



## Cromer

Fly With Me said:


> I have just read this whole thread across two days and was on tenterhooks the whole time praying you would get your happily ever after.
> 
> You are a good man and I am sure you have restored many people's faith in humanity. I am so very happy for you.
> 
> This thread should be required reading for anyone wanting to know how to conduct themselves with honour and integrity in the face of extreme and heart rending circumstances.
> 
> It sounds crazy but I want to thankyou for being who you are and allowing others to see that. Your family are very blessed to have you. These last few posts brought me to tears to see how generous your heart is even to your ex.
> 
> Bless you muchly!


Thank you for your kind words. I'm not sure it's all deserved. This journey started with me feeling so selfish about leaving my ex-wife. Now I'm remarried and celebrating a blended family in a way that I couldn't imagine three years ago. My wife and I weren't looking for a relationship but we found each other in faith and it's amazing. I am so thankful for having her in my life.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Cromer said:


> This is not only how my wife feels, but my daughters and daughter-in-law. They have completely rejected the modern feminist movement that sees men as the enemy, wants to disrupt the family unit, and espouses sex as a commodity or as meaningless as a handshake. Thankfully all of them are very happy in marriages with good, supportive men. All of them believe in the family unit and commitment, which is one of my proudest parental achievements. My wife doesn't have to work but loves what she does. She knows that she will be a "kept woman" when she does retire next year (at 50). I am thankful to be in a position to take care of my wife and enjoy life on our terms. I will take care of and protect her until my dying day. Well...as long as she approves!


Sounds like we married sisters. Soo many women now a days discount the importance of being a wife to their husbands first(if the guy is not TTFO that is)

It is nice to have my girl cover my back at all times. Even awhile back when i was clearing houses with my AR15 looking for drugged hoodlums, she was covering my back with her 9mm.

We are Blessed !


----------



## Cromer

Divinely Favored said:


> Sounds like we married sisters. Soo many women now a days discount the importance of being a wife to their husbands first(if the guy is not TTFO that is)
> 
> It is nice to have my girl cover my back at all times. Even awhile back when i was clearing houses with my AR15 looking for drugged hoodlums, she was covering my back with her 9mm.
> 
> We are Blessed !


There is no greater feeling in the world than having your woman have your back. I think some women underestimate their power when it comes to taking care of their man and the mountains that he would move for her in return.


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## Divinely Favored

Cromer said:


> There is no greater feeling in the world than having your woman have your back. I think some women underestimate their power when it comes to taking care of their man and the mountains that he would move for her in return.


I am glad my wife realized, if she makes me her king, I will give her the kingdom. Shame more women do not understand that about men in general.


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## Oxentree

Bottom line is if one party feels more strongly than the other, there will always be imbalance. I see the internal conflict within you and share the same horror in imagining the loss of my own but she may surprise you and understand your motivation. One of the most difficult parts is that it has to be kept secret because once you have made your decision, anything less than


Cromer said:


> Thank you for your kind words. I'm not sure it's all deserved. This journey started with me feeling so selfish about leaving my ex-wife. Now I'm remarried and celebrating a blended family in a way that I couldn't imagine three years ago. My wife and I weren't looking for a relationship but we found each other in faith and it's amazing. I am so thankful for having her in my life.


Dang man, your story is pretty inspiring to me. I am glad it turned out for the better and felt from your initial post that you knew what you wanted from life and chances were very good. Happy Holidays and cheers.


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## Scrooge

@Cromer:

You are the father that I wish I’d had, and your story is inspiring.

Like many others, I’m incredibly happy to see that life is finally showing both your wife and yourself the bright side that you both earned.

I know you’re too busy being happy, but if you ever wanted to work again, please consider mentoring, many people can benefit from your character and experience.

This thread is worth being a sticky one, at least the main events.


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## Cromer

Earlier tonight we were informed that we're gonna be grandparents x4. We're so excited. I appreciate how this community helped me through some hard times. For a while, I didn't want to revisit my posts here because there's a lot of baggage and pain involved. But now, no problem. My life is in such a different place. I know that may sound weird, but please believe me when I say that the TAM community is never far from my mind when I think about where I am today.

My son and his wife are unplanned preggers. They are a young couple and we are determined to help them however we can. My wife never thought she'd have grandchildren (long story if you're familiar), but she's been all about babies when our kids got busy. She's a woman on a mission. She decided to retire after this school year no matter what to be a full-time grandma and I support her of course. When I say she's in full grandma mode it's no joke. It's almost like she got a second lease on life. It's just my guess, but being married to me is giving her the chance to be the "nester" that she's always wanted to be, but never had the chance. I mean, she's the working woman and I fix her lunch every day, but she worries about what I'm eating and refuses to let me do most house chores that don't involve tools or lawn equipment.

I post this because I'm so happy for her. She could've been so easily overlooked. She's a high-value woman and I am blessed to have her in my life. She told me once that she felt that she was an "invisible woman" but Hell no, not to me. I still can't believe how this beautiful human came into my life.

Ok, enough simping. It's been a crazy day and I can't sleep.


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## Andy1001

That’s great news. Congratulations to the parents and grandparents to be.


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## Cynthia

A good husband deserves a good wife! You are a good husband according to both of your wives. Even the way you treat your ex is admirable. I am glad that you have a found a wonderful partner for life.


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## farsidejunky

Life continues to shine for you, @Cromer. Keep being great, brother. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Cromer

Cynthia said:


> A good husband deserves a good wife! You are a good husband according to both of your wives. Even the way you treat your ex is admirable. I am glad that you have a found a wonderful partner for life.


Thanks for your kind words. For my wife, I mostly think about how I need to measure up to her. That may seem strange but that's how much I respect and admire her. I felt about my ex-wife that way for years until things fell apart.

My upbringing shaped my thoughts about women, which I disturbingly find completely at odds with what young men believe today. But seeing how some young women are behaving and the culture of "I don't need no man and my sexy pictures for men on Instagram who aren't my man are liberating", I can't completely blame them. I had to deprogram my son out of some of today's Manosphere nonsense. He had become so afraid that his (now) wife's "female nature" would lead her to "monkey branch" to an older man with more resources. I mean, he was ready to call off his marriage. But she adores him, wants only him, and now they're building a life and family together. He's hardworking and loves her. She's a great girl and he's lucky to have her in his life. So much of the manosphere disregards the power of a woman's love and devotion.

I grew up without a father in a very, very female-centric family. No men around but it wasn't always the men's fault. My mother, her sisters, and other women around me were tough to be around to put it kindly. All of them were cheaters which lead to most of the reasons behind the broken families. But, that doesn't excuse the men (i.e. my father) from running out on us.

My greatest influence was my maternal grandmother, with whom I lived most of my pre-adult years, and consider her a saint. She was strictly old-school and was basically the "male" influence in my life. She was much harder on me than my sisters because, according to her, a man's job is to love, take care of, and protect the woman who will give you a family.

Some of her thoughts. You must be a gentleman. You must be able to fix things. You don't know your own strength and WILL respect women because you can hurt them. Never under any circumstance will you use force against a woman. Open doors. Walk street-side. You're courting her and must prove your worth. Pull out the chair. Never assume she wants anything physical until she signals it. Be a protector. Her feelings matter and you must be sensitive to her. Appreciate what she does at home. Build a life together that respects her and her goals. Be a father that provides for and protects his family (basically don't be like all of the loser men who have abandoned the women in my life). If she's someone worthy of being your wife, she will appreciate the respect that you have for her and not take advantage of it. For context, my grandmother was like many women of her generation. She married, her husband (my grandfather) who died when she was 40 (WWII), and she never remarried or even looked at another man.

If this is Patriarchy why do young women hate it so much? It's not showing women that they're weak, it's men showing respect. I raised my son this way and his wife tells me that he's her unicorn. Of course, we never know what goes on in another man's house, but my son's wife adores him and told us during their wedding reception "I want his babies" and now she's "surprise" preggers. When my wife and I were dating, she was so surprised at how I insisted on picking her up, opened doors, took the lead, pulled out her chair, planned dates, paid, all of the things. She'd never had that kind of respect shown to her.

Today, being an "old school" man is considered outdated. But my daughters expect it from their husbands and good on them. Their expectations probably weeded out a lot of losers and users. My wife loves it, my son's wife appreciates it and is determined to keep him that way. I make no apologies. I truly believe that women bring color to our lives. The women in my life certainly do, even my ex in how she has lit up about being a grandmother and now gets along with my wife. I appreciate what my grandmother brought into my life as an amazing influence, and as my wife would say she is the beneficiary.

I didn't mean to make such a long post, I kinda rambled. But the most respected and influential person in my life was a woman born in 1903 who taught me how to be a man. I hadn't thought about this in a while and it was nice to search my memories about my grandmother. She also taught me to make the most amazing recipes, my wife also being a beneficiary. My grandmother used to say that a man who can fix things is a keeper, but a man who can cook is a treasure.


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> Earlier tonight we were informed that we're gonna be grandparents x4. We're so excited.


Good for you buddy.


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## DesertH3

Cromer, I have read this thread many times and the way you have conducted yourself has been an inspiration and a model for how to handle an extremely difficult situation with grace and class. Thank you!! Congratulations for your happy life!! Well-deserved!


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## sokillme

Cromer said:


> Thanks for your kind words. For my wife, I mostly think about how I need to measure up to her. That may seem strange but that's how much I respect and admire her. I felt about my ex-wife that way for years until things fell apart.
> 
> My upbringing shaped my thoughts about women, which I disturbingly find completely at odds with what young men believe today. But seeing how some young women are behaving and the culture of "I don't need no man and my sexy pictures for men on Instagram who aren't my man are liberating", I can't completely blame them. I had to deprogram my son out of some of today's Manosphere nonsense. He had become so afraid that his (now) wife's "female nature" would lead her to "monkey branch" to an older man with more resources. I mean, he was ready to call off his marriage. But she adores him, wants only him, and now they're building a life and family together. He's hardworking and loves her. She's a great girl and he's lucky to have her in his life. So much of the manosphere disregards the power of a woman's love and devotion.
> 
> I grew up without a father in a very, very female-centric family. No men around but it wasn't always the men's fault. My mother, her sisters, and other women around me were tough to be around to put it kindly. All of them were cheaters which lead to most of the reasons behind the broken families. But, that doesn't excuse the men (i.e. my father) from running out on us.
> 
> My greatest influence was my maternal grandmother, with whom I lived most of my pre-adult years, and consider her a saint. She was strictly old-school and was basically the "male" influence in my life. She was much harder on me than my sisters because, according to her, a man's job is to love, take care of, and protect the woman who will give you a family.
> 
> Some of her thoughts. You must be a gentleman. You must be able to fix things. You don't know your own strength and WILL respect women because you can hurt them. Never under any circumstance will you use force against a woman. Open doors. Walk street-side. You're courting her and must prove your worth. Pull out the chair. Never assume she wants anything physical until she signals it. Be a protector. Her feelings matter and you must be sensitive to her. Appreciate what she does at home. Build a life together that respects her and her goals. Be a father that provides for and protects his family (basically don't be like all of the loser men who have abandoned the women in my life). If she's someone worthy of being your wife, she will appreciate the respect that you have for her and not take advantage of it. For context, my grandmother was like many women of her generation. She married, her husband (my grandfather) who died when she was 40 (WWII), and she never remarried or even looked at another man.
> 
> If this is Patriarchy why do young women hate it so much? It's not showing women that they're weak, it's men showing respect. I raised my son this way and his wife tells me that he's her unicorn. Of course, we never know what goes on in another man's house, but my son's wife adores him and told us during their wedding reception "I want his babies" and now she's "surprise" preggers. When my wife and I were dating, she was so surprised at how I insisted on picking her up, opened doors, took the lead, pulled out her chair, planned dates, paid, all of the things. She'd never had that kind of respect shown to her.
> 
> Today, being an "old school" man is considered outdated. But my daughters expect it from their husbands and good on them. Their expectations probably weeded out a lot of losers and users. My wife loves it, my son's wife appreciates it and is determined to keep him that way. I make no apologies. I truly believe that women bring color to our lives. The women in my life certainly do, even my ex in how she has lit up about being a grandmother and now gets along with my wife. I appreciate what my grandmother brought into my life as an amazing influence, and as my wife would say she is the beneficiary.
> 
> I didn't mean to make such a long post, I kinda rambled. But the most respected and influential person in my life was a woman born in 1903 who taught me how to be a man. I hadn't thought about this in a while and it was nice to search my memories about my grandmother. She also taught me to make the most amazing recipes, my wife also being a beneficiary. My grandmother used to say that a man who can fix things is a keeper, but a man who can cook is a treasure.


You are all class sir. Man your ex-wife was foolish.

I grew up around a lot of women too, sisters, only they didn't cheat and were all of very high moral character. I suspect partly because of that I very much like women, and I am not talking about attraction. I mean I like when women are around. I feel they tend to tamper the extremes of men and add a perspective that is great and one I might not have thought of.

To be honest I think a lot of the "Manosphere nonsense" (which is a good name for it) is basically just backlash by a lot of guys who idealized women and were rejected or hurt by them. Which is what I think a lot of the extreme "Patriarchy" stuff when it comes to relationships is the same. It all comes from seeing your opposite sex as - other, and magical, instead of honest to goodness human beings where some suck and some are great. When you can tell some they suck and tell others their great.

Though we as men can't have that conversation without acknowledging that until the last 40 years women were shut out of leadership so of course women are going to be skeptical and watchful about that. I also think there is a conversation to be had about how the unchecked extremes of both sexes sexual nature and how allowing that to control our thinking care really distort reality and hurt others. I think we forgot that with the sexual revolution.

Then there is this idea is that there is no difference which somehow became mainstream. That is BS too. I think it was a reaction to inequality, but it's just stupid.
I think the best way to think is that we are different and that is great, but neither is more important then the other. We should learn to be empathetic to our differences both in ourselves and in our partners. Hell, use that to make your partnership better. Celebrated it, use it to express your love more effectively. That doesn't even have to be a gender thing.

I think since that is proving more and more to be obvious that "all the same is" BS now there is this idea that everyone is so different as to still not possible to generalize. It's the same thing though. You can't generalize because we are all the same. You can't generalize because we are all so different. It's all nonsense. A lot of it is a way to avoid expectations.


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## Defhero

Cromer said:


> I've done a lot of reading in the forums over the past few months on the recommendation of a friend. It is so helpful to read about others' experiences, even though so much of it is so sad and/or tragic. I guess I'm posting because I'm having second thoughts? I was so sure.
> 
> My wife and I are in our early 50's and married for 30 years. I have been retired for a couple of years and she's been a SAHM for most of our marriage. Our youngest is leaving for college soon and for the first time in a very long time, we will be home by ourselves. We are financially secure and in good health and good shape. We still enjoy each other's company and do everything together. We get along great and have a lot of the same interests. Except for sex. We haven't had sex in over ten years and for her, it's no big deal. For me it's Hell.
> 
> I don't need any advice about how to "rekindle" anything. We've been down that road many, many times in many different ways, to include doctors and counseling. The fact remains that we have a sexless marriage and I have long since given up on trying to change it. I haven't brought up the topic in years. I'm sure she thinks the topic of sex has "gone away." The fact is that I have been planning to get out for a long time. We'd be so much better as best friends than husband and wife. I have remained faithful.
> 
> In her mind, our marriage is great. We do everything together, have "couple friends", do volunteer work, active in church, etc. Her family is my family. She has been planning our post-kids life for a while now. She wants to do some traveling and some home renovations.
> 
> For me, I have been carefully planning for divorce for the past year and she has no idea. Not in the slightest. I feel horrible about not telling her yet. I admit that I am and scared to lose so much of this life we've built. But I absolutely refuse to spend the rest of my life without physical intimacy in a relationship. I don't care how much it costs (and it will cost me big), I just to be with someone who doesn't expect me to keep an important part of who I am dead and buried. I'd rather just be alone.
> 
> I don't hate my wife, but I harbor a lot of resentment. I can't say that I love her as a wife anymore; years of rejection saw to that. But, I have a hard time imagining a life without her. We've been together our entire adult lives. Everyone sees us as the perfect marriage.
> 
> Everything is ready to go, to include all of the planning for the anticipated split in assets. I am probably a month or so away from breaking the news and but I don't know how yet. This is going to be rough on so many levels for us and our families, but I'm not going to live this lie of a perfect marriage any longer. I don't want to see my wife hurt but there is no way around it. I am determined to do this but I admit that I am struggling.
> [/QUOTE
> Jump without hesitation, but realize once you do, she might come begging and then all the sudden her sex drive misteriously comes back for a time being. One's who do this a lot of the times, will start putting out again (putting out, because they are not actually wanting it), all in the attempt to save the marriage. This would be short lived, that is why I say jump.
> If she decides to not be alone, she will then do this to some other man. Give sex to capture him and then eventually starve them to death....


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## Defhero

Cromer said:


> If I gave the impression that I want to hit the dating scene that's not the case. I'm finding it harder and harder to live in a situation that I have come to resent so much. I mentioned that I'd rather be alone, at least that's how I've come to feel about it.


I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but once you are alone, you will be awefully lonely with a lot of time on your hands. This is when you will desire finding someone or will try to paint a picture in your head, it wasn't as bad as you made it out to be. This is how our heads plays tricks on us, specially when it comes to sex and a man's mind....


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## PieceOfSky

@Defhero,

You’re nearly 5 years and more than 1000 posts behind.


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## Cynthia

Defhero said:


> I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but once you are alone, you will be awefully lonely with a lot of time on your hands. This is when you will desire finding someone or will try to paint a picture in your head, it wasn't as bad as you made it out to be. This is how our heads plays tricks on us, specially when it comes to sex and a man's mind....


Your predictions turned out to be completely wrong. It's always a good idea to read the entire thread before commenting.


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