# My story begins 34 days ago (possible WW)



## johndoe12299

Hey all, first of all I want to say thanks for this forum. Finding it has been a breath of fresh air and has provided great information and consolation in the fact of knowing other men and women are going through what I am currently going through. Thanks in advance for all replies and time spent reading this.

My story begins on June 9. This was a day my wife, 2 kids and I(ages 2 and 5) were supposed to leave to take a family trip to the mountains along with my parents and sister's family. All good, right?

I talk to her at lunch and discuss logistics of when we are leaving, packing, etc... She sends me a picture of them celebrating her sales leader for the month at work, all that jazz.

I get home, go to the master bedroom and our bags are sitting there packed. I can immediately sense something is wrong from my wife's demeanor. Cue the 'stomach wrenching feeling'. I definitely can't recall what was exactly said that day as it's a blur by now, but she basically said she couldn't go on the trip. She didn't want to pretend in front of my family. She was tired of trying. "It shouldn't be this hard", etc...

I know it's cliche but i was pretty flabbergasted. I, like most people, thought we had a decent marriage. I'm not going to sit here and say it was great as we had our struggles. But there was definitely no incident in the previous couple of weeks like any sort of argument that would have triggered this. She just sounds emotionally drained(now that i read about WWs, the traits are similar) I don't do anything like beg, ask her about the kids, etc...I really am just mostly shocked and if i recall i pretty much hear her out on a few things and leave the room to be with the kids and try my best to keep it together. She takes a nap, then wakes up at 9pm to head to her sister's house.

******
Now, a little back ground. Rewind to 3 nights before, i giver her oral and we have great sex. This was preceded by us reading a big we got from our marriage retreat together and going over the sex chapter. She was turned on by it.

Next night she has a bit of a breakdown and says she is losing her faith. She joined christianity prior to us getting married 7 years ago and our lack of a "spiritual" connection has always been something she's brought up. Over the years we've tried reading books together. I've always supported her journey, have attended church with her on a semi regular basis; but am not quite where she is on the belief scale. She mentions the only thing keeping her trying in the marriage was her faith and without her faith she doesn't know if she can do it(red flag anyone...boy i should have saw this coming right then and there).

I console her and offer to pray with her. We finish the night with a BJ and anal sex. That sounds crass but I just want to give an idea of our relationship directly leading up to D Day.

*****

Now, that marriage book i mentioned. It's christian based and it talked heavily about the role sex plays in a marriage and what's expected of wife and husband.

My wife has had a rough childhood, to say the least. Her mom had her at 14, and had 5 kids by the age of 23. Lots of men came in and out. Terrible things were done to my wife, and she's had **** bfs. Her dad treated her like ****. The whole 9 yards. She and I have been to counseling to discuss her past, and how to best navigate those waters in our relationship.

I think the book may have been a part of the trigger that set her off.
*****
Now, back to d-day. Some of the other things she said, and has said before in counseling, is that she would be totally good with never having sex again. She sometimes feel asexual. She's tired of feeling the pressure to have sex, and that it wasn't me, but just being in a marriage brought her constant anxiety about it. I could go on but i think you get the gist of it. It is hard to explain if you haven't been with a victim of sexual abuse.
*****

Well, she sleeps at her sister's for a few nights and i really don't contact her much. Intuition told me just to leave her alone as much as possible if i wanted any chance at salvaging this. She ends up getting a airbnb a few days later and informs me she is living there for the remainder of June.

Now, I am sure i ****ed up here as I probably should have just said no but I don't think i had much ground to stand on as we have joint accounts and she brings in an income. So i considered the cost of airbnb coming out of her income.

Anyway, fast forward a little bit and I'm a week into the guilt trip. Playing back everything in my head, "what did i do wrong? what can i do going forward" You all know it. The kind of reflection that drives you crazy. Well, maybe a week or week and a half later, she comes over to spend time with the kids(i have been keeping them all this time) and I notice her ring is off. So, as an emotional mess I can't keep it in and ask her what's up with that? She basically says that she doesn't know what she wants and she needs to work on herself. I don't remember her exact words. (Again, here is where i should have just said alright we are done now and silo'd her). We then go into the room and talk more(again, i shouldn't have done this but i was desperately seeking clarity). I still at this point never once asked her to come back, or say things like "what about the kids, me, etc" so I can at least cling to that, ha! But i do go into my spiel about how being alone gives so much time to reflect on things and look at the relationshp from an outsider's perspective. How I probably didn't love her the way she wanted to be loved (me thinking that providing everything for the family was good enough, possibly didn't help out enough with the kids, all that jazz) Basically a little bit of honesty and truth but quite possibly coming off as a sap. I just thought honesty at that point was the way to go, but I now know that just looks like it was all my fault for my wife getting to this point; which i know is not the truth.

But I didn't. I don't think i had discovered this forum yet but it was around this time where i found a thread where someone outlined like 35 steps on what to do. Maybe the 180 method, i'm not sure. I really liked it. I was already doing a few things, but made sure to add some more to my arsenal.

A few days go by and we don't talk much. She comes over to see the kids and she comes to talk in the room and talks about how "thanks for everything you said the other night; it's not all true. You did everything you needed, etc" Basically telling me not to beat myself up over it. "But", she says(there's always a but!)..."when i think about us and you in the future, I envision you with the kids and someone that loves you, and I don't feel anything. No jealousy, anger, etc"(code red anyone??) At this point i should have just saw the writing on the wall, but i was dumb, and stubborn, and just asked her one last thing: if she could consider going on a retreat for sexual trauma victims. I had it in my head that she dipping back into a worse mental state and that her past was to blame. (this still may be partially the case, that is up for debate).

Also at some point during the "talk" that night she says she's just tired of having to answer to anyone, doesn't want to feel obligated to have sex, wants to be able to do what she wants with her money(we had argued about how much she should donate to charity recently). Lots of different things all pointing back to basically wanting to not be tied down to anyone or have any sort of marital/family obligation. She talks about how she's jealous of my cousin who has his kid 7 & 7(the week off).

She ultimately agrees to go on the retreat and asks if we could wait until she returns before she makes a decision about us. It's so early on in the process i basically say OK. I mean at that point what else am I going to do?

*****

There's about a 2.5 week period before the retreat ends so not much happens. I am still living with the kids, trying hard to focus on them. Taking them on outings, keeping them occupied outside, etc. We don't talk much outside of about the kids. At one point we text a bit and i basically just tell her I am good with wahtever the outcome of this retreat is, and to not go into it with expectations. She is very thankful and tells me she hopes it changes the way she feels about us, because that's what she wants.

*****

Fast forward to end of the retreat(she texted me several messages and pictures, had a 30 minute convo about one of her sessions). Myself and the kids pick her up at the airport and she seems in good spirits. She recommends we take the kids to lunch so we do that.

We get home, put the kids down for a nap and she hands me a card she wrote the day before with an excerpt from the note being "I have also gained what i wanted here - peace and clarity. Whatever I do in love is the right decision for me. I love you. I hope you can see me"

So, at this point I really just want clarity on the situation so we go talk in the room and she basically says her feelings have not changed. The counselors there asked her what her idea of happiness was in 6 months and she says "to see my husband with someone that loves him unconditionally" and to be coparenting. Says she wants to be able to eat what she wants, do what she wants(uhhh, what? I never once told her she couldn't do these things, I was also the one who recommended she get out of the house and taking care of the kids, and pursue a real estate career. Which she did and has been great at itthis year)

But i knew not to try and argue and question tat reasoning with logic. I basically just told her I never did any of that, and she stated it wasn't me, just being in a marriage made her feel that way and that she didn't think she was cut out for the traditional marriage lifestyle.Felt invisible, etc "just a mom and wife"...

Anyway, at that point I get the message loud and clear. Now here's where it gets fun

***

Later that day I log into my cell phone plan to add some data. Both of our lines are on the plan, and i see the "data usage" link. I figure "why not, let me check". I keep seeing a number pop up, with some extremely long call times(2-5 hours. Yes, 300 minutes for one call). These calls go back several weeks, including while on her retreat. Ultimately i go back and and see the first time his number shows up is 2 days before D day.

Now, Some may call me naive, and sure I am; but just for full disclosure and honesty I never once considered the the possibility of another man in the picture. Again, this will probably come off as extremely naive as I'm sure most guys feel this way until it happens to them, but she held herself with high integrity, christian values, and absolutely despised cheaters. You guys are all probably laughing at me now, as you probably saw it coming from a mile away while reading all of that text, but what can i say. If i thought my spouse had that bone in her body i would not have married her. But, I'm just being real here. Opening myself up and being truthful.

I do some digging and the guy is a person she works with at the brokerage. I do more digging and his social media presence is very slim which is odd considering he's a RE agent and 32yo. I also find he has a long term GF that works in the same hometown I'm from. I have no idea if it's physical yet. It probably is if I'm being honest, but i have no proof. All i know is it would be hard to be physical at night as they are on the phone for hours just about every night, and she knows i know where she is so if i ever got a wild hair i could easily check in. Definitely possibly some day time stuff going on.

So, that's where we are. I am here a week later. I haven't told her anything. I haven't told the GF anything. Just my parents know(my dad's inital hunch at the very beginning was another man, i said it was the bottom of my list of concerns. Dad knows best...)

I did slip up and tell her Mom i know this past Saturday. I know how horrendously stupid that was. Like, seriously ****ing stupid. Her mom and i had been talking because my wife had cut her and all her aunts off from communication so her Mom would call me to check on the kids. I just held it in for a week and had to get it off my chest and she was within reach. She promised she wouldn't say anything. We'll see.

I've bascially kept it status quo with the wife for the past week. Minimal talking. She offered to take the kids this past weekend. It was so last minute I had no time to get any kind of decent VAR. I bought one from best buy but it was garbage and i didn't have a great place to conceal it. So, i set up my laptop in the room to use the Mic to listen to her call. However that was a fail because there is a time limit on the Windows voice recorder app. Also, when i returned Sunday my laptop was closed, lol. She never mentioned it so I wonder if she was tipped off? That was so clumsy of me. It was just a last ditched rush job to catch something on tape.

***

So, where do we go from here? When do I approach her about the long phone calls? Do i keep it on the down low until i can gain more info? She has told me several times "she doesn't want anything". I discussed selling the house and splitting the equity. "I don't want to take anything from you, this is all my fault" Of course that can change on the drop of a dime so I'm thinking i need to get some more solid evidence of promiscuity before tipping her off that i know(or before her mom says anything) When do I tell the other gf?

I have a consultation with my lawyer tomorrow. She is supposed to be a great advocate for father's rights. Anxious to see how it goes and what she's going to recommend. My thoughts for not confronting the wife about it now is i just want to keep her in her current good spirits of "i don't want anything" rather than rocking teh boat confronting her about this OM. Thoughts? Candid honesty is welcome! But really, just thanks for reading all this mess. It's cathartic to write it all out and get it off my chest.


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## johndoe12299

also, any GPS tracking devices/VARs you folks recommend? I really, really hate that i was too in a daze and filled with false hope earlier to not buy those sooner. She took the kids to her house the second night of the weekend so i'm thinking that combined with the laptop lid being closed she might be on to me trying to listen in on something.

Little does she know I still have access to phone records.


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## Mr.Married

She is already finished. Who cares at this point. Your wasting your time from this point forward. It has been told to you plain as day she is no longer interested..... multiple times. Get the message.....get the divorce.... and move on with your life.

What’s really going to happen: you will mentally anguish over every last detail... how come... why...who is he...why him....how do I win her back....why is he better than me.... I need details....I want answers.....I want people to dislike her.... I want our friends to choose me .....blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Dude ...... save yourself.... don’t bother.

It’s finished


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## Luckylucky

I would do exactly what she suggested find someone who will love you and never ever look back. 

She’s abandoning her husband and kids, she’s beyond help. Don’t try fixing her or suggesting anymore therapy or retreats or anything. 

Grieve it, and again, find someone who loves you. You’re an absolute catch, there’s a broken heart out there just waiting for a loyal father and husband. 

Find someone who loves you, and forget this emotional mess of a woman.


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## johndoe12299

@mr married

Heh. Your second paragraph has been the last week. Honestly though, she called yesterday as it sounds she was having a break down after being *****ed out by her mother. I listened to her for about 10 minutes. After I got off the phone, i just sat there thinking "what are you doing? get your **** together". Called the lawyer this morning and set up my appt for 1:30 tomorrow.

I'm just saying it's not easy when kids are involved man. "get the message"...yeah in hindsight there were multiple things in that post where i should have immediately shut it down and called lawyer; but the family unit clouds judgement for sure. That, and my sympathy for her mental issues.

But, I get it. I'm past that. Ready to get this process rolling and be the best Dad i can be for my kids, because they need a strong, stable figure right now.


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## johndoe12299

Luckylucky said:


> She’s abandoning her husband and kids, she’s beyond help. Don’t try fixing her or suggesting anymore therapy or retreats or anything.


Thanks for the kind words 
(meant to copy the other part of your post)


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## Mr.Married

johndoe12299 said:


> @mr married
> 
> Heh. Your second paragraph has been the last week. Honestly though, she called yesterday as it sounds she was having a break down after being ***ed out by her mother. I listened to her for about 10 minutes. After I got off the phone, i just sat there thinking "what are you doing? get your ** together". Called the lawyer this morning and set up my appt for 1:30 tomorrow.
> 
> I'm just saying it's not easy when kids are involved man. "get the message"...yeah in hindsight there were multiple things in that post where i should have immediately shut it down and called lawyer; but the family unit clouds judgement for sure. That, and my sympathy for her mental issues.
> 
> But, I get it. I'm past that. Ready to get this process rolling and be the best Dad i can be for my kids, because they need a strong, stable figure right now.


I like you already 👍

Try to keep your head down and keep plowing forward. No one will claim it isn’t difficult. You just have to do it.

There is a little cutie waiting for you on the other side...... you’ll see 👍


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## Beach123

Move your money into your name only so she can’t spend or take all of what’s available (she will).
She left her kids - she’s capable of anything terrible.
Ask the court for 100% custody a d she can pay you child support. Take tax records and get proof of income to the attorney.
Close her credit cards unless they are in her name only…
Make sure she can’t swipe assets and put them in her name only.
Change passwords on everything…including the garage door opener.
Just start eliminating her from your life. She left a while back - this is just the result of it all.

Be done with her and move forward knowing she is t a good person and she sure isn’t a good wife or mother.
Of course her mother outed her. Anything you say to her mon will go immediately to the wife.

Just get the divorce filed and make sure you don’t look back.


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## Evinrude58

I agree, go for full custody. She abandoned her kids to go screw another dude. I knew it three sentences into your first post.
You’re hurting. Your emotions will screw your over. Let your attorney take care of this. Full custody. That’s non negotiable. Have proof the kids have been with you the whole time for months. Get the best possible settlement.
Ignore any thoughts you have about being fair.
Forget the person you think she was. She’s not that person. 

she’s been lying to you this whole time and making you think you’re the bad guy.

she’s a terrible mother, terrible wife, and terrible person. Don’t give her a pass because bad things happened to her years ago. Everyone has a past. These are her choices.


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## MJJEAN

She's agreeing to give you primary of the kids and the marital home, free and clear, because she "doesn't want to take anything from you"? Do it now. Tell that lawyer to make printer go brrrrr, get those papers signed by her, and file them ASAP.

Also, her offer might be contingent upon her leaving with a spotless reputation. If you out the affair she may do a swift about face and fight for the kids and the assets. I'm going to go against my normal advice and say keep your mouth firmly shut until the paperwork goes through and then out her to all and sundry.


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## Diana7

Even if you go for full custody please make sure she sees the children for their sakes.


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## Evinrude58

Diana7 said:


> Even if you go for full custody please make sure she sees the children for their sakes.


omg. What is it with this for the children sakes?

she’s abandoned them. He has not mentioned EVER that he’s even considering keeping her away from her kids.

the fact is, she doesn’t want to be a mother anymore. The kids are BETTER OFF not seeomg a person like this and thinking she is what a mom really is like. But the OP has never even mentioned not letting her as the kids.


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## Evinrude58

MJJEAN said:


> She's agreeing to give you primary of the kids and the marital home, free and clear, because she "doesn't want to take anything from you"? Do it now. Tell that lawyer to make printer go brrrrr, get those papers signed by her, and file them ASAP.
> 
> Also, her offer might be contingent upon her leaving with a spotless reputation. If you out the affair she may do a swift about face and fight for the kids and the assets. I'm going to go against my normal advice and say keep your mouth firmly shut until the paperwork goes through and then out her to all and sundry.


Absolutely positively correct. OP, you have a very short window to get her to do as she says. Hours , not days. When what little conscience she has goes away, her buds start putting ideas in her head about how she should get this and that, etc.——- you’re screwed.

if your lawyer doesn’t draw up the paperwork and she can’t sign it TODAY, get A lawyer who WILL. As MJEAN told you, it’s a matter of printing it out. Get it done. You will not have this chance for much longer. If you don’t get this done literally today, it will be a huge huge HUGE mistake.

please listen and take action.


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## farsidejunky

johndoe12299 said:


> @mr married
> 
> Heh. Your second paragraph has been the last week. Honestly though, she called yesterday as it sounds she was having a break down after being ***ed out by her mother. I listened to her for about 10 minutes. After I got off the phone, i just sat there thinking "what are you doing? get your ** together". Called the lawyer this morning and set up my appt for 1:30 tomorrow.
> 
> I'm just saying it's not easy when kids are involved man. "get the message"...yeah in hindsight there were multiple things in that post where i should have immediately shut it down and called lawyer; but the family unit clouds judgement for sure. That, and my sympathy for her mental issues.
> 
> But, I get it. I'm past that. Ready to get this process rolling and be the best Dad i can be for my kids, because they need a strong, stable figure right now.


Next time she wants to vent:

"Emotional consoling is for people who are in a loving marriage. You have made it clear we are no longer in one, so I have no interest in hearing about your problems."

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Jlb12

Hi there,

Having been in an unhappy marriage and having an affair in the past, from her reactions to you, she’s feeling guilty. If you think you can salvage the marriage, I would consider discussing it with her. No matter how hurt or pissed you might be, try not to show it and listen to her whys. Pay attention to what she’s getting from this other person that she thinks you aren’t giving her. It might not change her decision and she might not admit to it because she might be ashamed but you can at least know you tried. 
Best wishes on everything.


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## Lila

Mr.Married said:


> She is already finished. Who cares at this point. Your wasting your time from this point forward. It has been told to you plain as day she is no longer interested..... multiple times. Get the message.....get the divorce.... and move on with your life.
> 
> What’s really going to happen: you will mentally anguish over every last detail... how come... why...who is he...why him....how do I win her back....why is he better than me.... I need details....I want answers.....I want people to dislike her.... I want our friends to choose me .....blah blah blah blah blah blah.
> 
> Dude ...... save yourself.... don’t bother.
> 
> It’s finished


As someone who went through the exact same thing, I agree with this 100%. See a lawyer quick. You won't get a better chance at getting an uncontested divorce with the best settlement possible. 

I do not recommend taking full custody of your kids unless you feel you can handle being a single parent 24/7. You may not like HER right now but your kids don't know any better. They need both parents in their lives. I will also say that it's much easier to find women to date when you have shared custody than full custody. Modern dating already sucks. Don't add more hurdles unless you absolutely need to


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## Marc878

Your wife is and has been neck deep into a sexual affair with a shiny new lover. If you look at the phone records you can probably spot when it started.

*Betrayed spouse syndrome:*
Swallow their lies (all cheaters lie a lot) because you can’t deal with the truth.
Blame yourself because if it’s your fault you can fix this. BS. She is having an affair because she wants to. Period. You didn’t make her a cheater. It’s 100% on her.
Do the infamous “pick me dance” or try nicing her back which will lower your status even more while making her shiny new lover look even better.

You are the only one that can make yourself a chump.
Get strong and stay there or you will put yourself in a long painful stay in limbo

Go into hard no contact now. See an attorney and get the divorce rolling. Right now she is having great porn star sex with her other man. Move fast or linger in hell.

Infidelity is a life long gift. LET HER GO. FREE YOURSELF.


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## Numb26

Marc878 said:


> Your wife is and has been neck deep into a sexual affair with a shiny new lover. If you look at the phone records you can probably spot when it started.
> 
> *Betrayed spouse syndrome:*
> Swallow their lies (all cheaters lie a lot) because you can’t deal with the truth.
> Blame yourself because if it’s your fault you can fix this. BS. She is having an affair because she wants to. Period. You didn’t make her a cheater. It’s 100% on her.
> Do the infamous “pick me dance” or try nicing her back which will lower your status even more while making her shiny new lover look even better.
> 
> You ate the only one that can make you seem a chump.
> Get strong and stay there or you will put yourself in a long painful stay in limbo
> 
> Go into hard no contact now. See an attorney and get the divorce rolling. Right now she is having great porn star sex with her other man. Move fast or linger in hell.
> 
> Infidelity is a life long gift. LET HER GO. FREE YOURSELF.


^^^This! Some of the best advice you will get


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## Marc878

Right now is not the time to stand around flat footed living on hopium that she wakes up and gets it. My sister was a wayward and she never got it.

Beware of those telling you to try and save your marriage at all cost. You don’t have one to save since she’s out screwing her new boyfriend. Pastors, friends, family usually have no clue in dealing with a cheater/infidelity.

The one thing you need to get is they lie. A lot.


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## johndoe12299

Hey all, thank you for all the advice and words.

Just for full transparency, she hasn't completely abandoned the kids. She has picked them up from day care some days and spent the afternoons with them, until she leaves at night to go back to her place. She calls to tell them goodnight, etc. Although they have only slept with her 2 nights of the last 33. The rest were at my house with me. Just wanted to get that out there; it's not a situation of full blown abandonment, fwiw.


So, I met with the lawyer today; and honestly i'm walking away more confused than ever. Louisiana is a backwards ass state, obviously; as we are the only state in the union that follows civil law, and not common law. 

Basically, my lawyer's advice to me was to carry on as much as i can and wait out the 365 day period we have to be separated. The earlier i serve papers, the earlier i have to pay spousal support.

It was a ton of information and my head is spinning at this point. I told her my wife seems to want to have an "easy" splitup and not take anything...however even if we get that in writing, statute of limitations is 3 years and she can dissolve anything in writing and come back for her half.

This is ****ed.


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## moulinyx

johndoe12299 said:


> Hey all, thank you for all the advice and words.
> 
> Just for full transparency, she hasn't completely abandoned the kids. She has picked them up from day care some days and spent the afternoons with them, until she leaves at night to go back to her place. She calls to tell them goodnight, etc. Although they have only slept with her 2 nights of the last 33. The rest were at my house with me. Just wanted to get that out there; it's not a situation of full blown abandonment, fwiw.
> 
> 
> So, I met with the lawyer today; and honestly i'm walking away more confused than ever. Louisiana is a backwards ass state, obviously; as we are the only state in the union that follows civil law, and not common law.
> 
> Basically, my lawyer's advice to me was to carry on as much as i can and wait out the 365 day period we have to be separated. The earlier i serve papers, the earlier i have to pay spousal support.
> 
> It was a ton of information and my head is spinning at this point. I told her my wife seems to want to have an "easy" splitup and not take anything...however even if we get that in writing, statute of limitations is 3 years and she can dissolve anything in writing and come back for her half.
> 
> This is ****ed.


Does Louisiana grant at-fault divorces? I know it sounds bad but that is one way to avoid her coming back and going for it all. I personally would pursue an at-fault divorce if infidelity were to be discovered. It would get pretty messy though.


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## johndoe12299

It does grant at-fault. Lawyer said that it is extremely tough to prove in louisiana court. I mean basically you need to have a camera in the room. Her writtten confession may not even be enough. We would have to get the other guy on the stand to.

Lawyer basically said i should avoid litigation at all costs and should work for settlement; which my wife seems to be on board with for now. It just doesn't really pay to file now or 330 days from now. If i file now i will probably owe spousal support until the divorce is served. So ****ty. Why the heck can't i just end this marriage given the circumstances. I have to deal with this for the next 330 days? I just want it to be over.


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## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Hey all, thank you for all the advice and words.
> 
> Just for full transparency, she hasn't completely abandoned the kids. She has picked them up from day care some days and spent the afternoons with them, until she leaves at night to go back to her place. She calls to tell them goodnight, etc. Although they have only slept with her 2 nights of the last 33. The rest were at my house with me. Just wanted to get that out there; it's not a situation of full blown abandonment, fwiw.


Cmon man quit making excuses 2 nights out of 33 is abandonment. My god man she’s supposed to be their mother. What mother does this? Answer: a worthlessness lowlife. Get out of denial. That’s not going to help you.

She wants you and your kids out of the way so she can make herself fully available for her shiny new lover.

All you have to do is drive by or stop in one evening. Her lover will be there.

Never accept the unacceptable or be plan B backup in case it doesn’t work out for her.

I feel for you. The best path for you is to cut contact. If it isn’t about kids or divorce ignore her.


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## Marc878

Right now it seems like the end of the world. It isn’t. You will get through this. It won’t be easy but In the end you’re gonna be fine.


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## MJJEAN

johndoe12299 said:


> i file now i will probably owe spousal support until the divorce is served. So ****ty.


You mentioned some confusion. I'm asking how clear you are on how this all works.

In my state, alimony is calculated from the day of separation. If the payor waits 365 days (12 months) to file they are assessed alimony they owe for the preceding 12 months and start off in arrears. Before delaying filing make sure it is not the same in your state. If so, you're only delaying the beginning of payments and will owe her the set alimony plus arrears until arrearages are paid off.

Also, you want the courts involved as soon as possible, generally, when children are involved. As is, without a court order, your wife can legally take the kids to her place or even out of state and there is jack you can do about it unless/until you get a court order. Then there is the matter of child support and custody. You want it established you are the primary custodial parent before she has a dose of reality and decides to become mommy again. Also, there are legal liabilities spouses share. Without official separation or a divorce filing on record how open to liability are you should your wife decide to run up debt or get sued for a DUI? Can she just come back home any time she wants without a court order establishing she has her own residence?

I know Louisiana law is different than the rest of the country, but I think you may want to speak to a few more lawyers for 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions.


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## Affaircare

@johndoe12299 , 

Okay, thanks of the extra information! Knowing that you're in Louisiana helps a lot, and I can confirm a couple things for you that will help all this make more sense. 

First, in Louisiana there are no-fault divorces and at-fault divorces, and adultery is one category of fault. BUT (and it's a big but...) in order to prove adultery you pretty much need to have a photograph of the spouse with another person as they are in the midst of making love. It's my understanding that you have "circumstantial" evidence such as calls to the same phone # for thousands of minutes...but not a photo by a PI. So you have the option to try to obtain a photo of your STBXW making love to the guy with all the phone calls, but honestly...she has moved out and it would look pretty much like stalking. Thus, the alternative, and the option usually used the most, is to file no-fault. If you file no-fault, you still would need to live apart for 365 days because Louisiana has you state a reason why you want a divorce, and they accept "we have minor children and have lived apart for 365 days". 

Next, you technically "could" file your divorce at any time during the 365 days, but as soon as you do file, the first thing the courts will do is set something for after the 365 days...and the second thing will be to establish temporary child support, alimony, and custody. That temporary order will be in place and enforceable until the time apart has elapsed and the divorce can proceed. Therefore, essentially, if you file early, you will be court ordered to pay earlier. If you put off filing, you have the option to let her walk away for now and she won't be able to use the court to force you to pay her. 

For the next 365 days, if you more or less just carry on as if she had passed away and you were the remaining parent who has to take care of his kids, you will actually do okay. This will give you a little time to read the Louisiana Divorce Laws: Civil Code 102-104 (click on 102 and read it and all amendments, then 103, then 104). The idea is for you to be INFORMED about what your state laws are. No one knows your situation and your case better than YOU! So arm yourself and get informed!!! 

You want to learn about these laws because when the time does come 330 days from now, you want to know how the court will divide your assets and debts, and have some idea how the court will rule regarding custody and child support and alimony. If you read between now and the next three months and can document that you have the children 95% of the time and paid for 95% of their expenses...guess what? Likely they won't come after you for back CS ... AND you'll already have fairly split whatever assets and debts the two of you jointly held! Just look at the law and be realistic, remembering that court WILL NOT "punish" her for being wrong, being bad, or even being stupid. Court will only gather the list of all you own and owe, and split it like a business deal. Court will only look at who was primary taking care of the kids, who had them the most overnights, who earns what (or has the potential to earn), and split that in half.

In addition, during this year apart, you have a GREAT opportunity to DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. That means, either write it down or take a photo you can print. For example, RIGHT NOW (Today) go buy a weekly planner type paper calendar, and write down on that planner when YOU have had the kids overnight, and when SHE had the kids overnight. In addition, jot down anything relating to the kids such as "picked them up from daycare" or "spent the afternoon" or "took Child#1 to doctor appointment"...because for custody judges usually look at OVERNIGHT, but if you can also document that you are their primary carer, you make your case *much *stronger. And the reason you document in a calendar and not just on your cell phone or by memory is this: you'll say "I have the kids more than she does" and she'll outright lie and say "Oh no we have them evenly, and since my income is 1/3 of his, I need him to pay me CS." Your memory will a) not be perfectly accurate and b) not be admissible as evidence in a court of law to prove that you do or do not have them more! BUT A CALENDAR IS ADMISSIBLE!!!! A calendar is a piece of paper you can turn over to the court and say "I have documents to show that I have had the kids for 300 overnights over the course of the past year, and she has had them 65 overnights. In addition, I can document that I am the primary carer because I go to the PTA meetings, go to the Parent/Teacher Conferences, take them to doctor appointments, and accompany them to all extra curricular events. Here is my calendar proving my statement."

Finally, during this year apart, you want to appear as the "rational and mature" spouse, and let her choose what type of spouse she choses to act like. If you raise your kids, do your best not to disrupt their lives, fairly divide assets such as bank accounts and cars, and essentially leave her alone...you'll be seen as dependable and reasonable. If she walks away from her kids, isn't involved in their lives very much, tries to take more than Louisiana Law says is her fair share...she'll be seen as unreliable and unreasonable. Take this time to show the court, by your action, that you are all about the kids and saving "the family unit" and if she wants to walk away (shrug) okay...let her. Make sense? I get it--this HURTS LIKE CRAZY, but if you just keep quiet, judges like to go with status quo. If she establishes status quo of YOU having custody and she just "visits" once a month, that's what they'll order! So just quietly let it happen.


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## johndoe12299

Affaircare said:


> @johndoe12299 ,
> 
> Okay, thanks of the extra information! Knowing that you're in Louisiana helps a lot, and I can confirm a couple things for you that will help all this make more sense.
> 
> First, in Louisiana there are no-fault divorces and at-fault divorces, and adultery is one category of fault. BUT (and it's a big but...) in order to prove adultery you pretty much need to have a photograph of the spouse with another person as they are in the midst of making love. It's my understanding that you have "circumstantial" evidence such as calls to the same phone # for thousands of minutes...but not a photo by a PI. So you have the option to try to obtain a photo of your STBXW making love to the guy with all the phone calls, but honestly...she has moved out and it would look pretty much like stalking. Thus, the alternative, and the option usually used the most, is to file no-fault. If you file no-fault, you still would need to live apart for 365 days because Louisiana has you state a reason why you want a divorce, and they accept "we have minor children and have lived apart for 365 days".
> 
> Next, you technically "could" file your divorce at any time during the 365 days, but as soon as you do file, the first thing the courts will do is set something for after the 365 days...and the second thing will be to establish temporary child support, alimony, and custody. That temporary order will be in place and enforceable until the time apart has elapsed and the divorce can proceed. Therefore, essentially, if you file early, you will be court ordered to pay earlier. If you put off filing, you have the option to let her walk away for now and she won't be able to use the court to force you to pay her.
> 
> For the next 365 days, if you more or less just carry on as if she had passed away and you were the remaining parent who has to take care of his kids, you will actually do okay. This will give you a little time to read the Louisiana Divorce Laws: Civil Code 102-104 (click on 102 and read it and all amendments, then 103, then 104). The idea is for you to be INFORMED about what your state laws are. No one knows your situation and your case better than YOU! So arm yourself and get informed!!!
> 
> You want to learn about these laws because when the time does come 330 days from now, you want to know how the court will divide your assets and debts, and have some idea how the court will rule regarding custody and child support and alimony. If you read between now and the next three months and can document that you have the children 95% of the time and paid for 95% of their expenses...guess what? Likely they won't come after you for back CS ... AND you'll already have fairly split whatever assets and debts the two of you jointly held! Just look at the law and be realistic, remembering that court WILL NOT "punish" her for being wrong, being bad, or even being stupid. Court will only gather the list of all you own and owe, and split it like a business deal. Court will only look at who was primary taking care of the kids, who had them the most overnights, who earns what (or has the potential to earn), and split that in half.
> 
> In addition, during this year apart, you have a GREAT opportunity to DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. That means, either write it down or take a photo you can print. For example, RIGHT NOW (Today) go buy a weekly planner type paper calendar, and write down on that planner when YOU have had the kids overnight, and when SHE had the kids overnight. In addition, jot down anything relating to the kids such as "picked them up from daycare" or "spent the afternoon" or "took Child#1 to doctor appointment"...because for custody judges usually look at OVERNIGHT, but if you can also document that you are their primary carer, you make your case *much *stronger. And the reason you document in a calendar and not just on your cell phone or by memory is this: you'll say "I have the kids more than she does" and she'll outright lie and say "Oh no we have them evenly, and since my income is 1/3 of his, I need him to pay me CS." Your memory will a) not be perfectly accurate and b) not be admissible as evidence in a court of law to prove that you do or do not have them more! BUT A CALENDAR IS ADMISSIBLE!!!! A calendar is a piece of paper you can turn over to the court and say "I have documents to show that I have had the kids for 300 overnights over the course of the past year, and she has had them 65 overnights. In addition, I can document that I am the primary carer because I go to the PTA meetings, go to the Parent/Teacher Conferences, take them to doctor appointments, and accompany them to all extra curricular events. Here is my calendar proving my statement."
> 
> Finally, during this year apart, you want to appear as the "rational and mature" spouse, and let her choose what type of spouse she choses to act like. If you raise your kids, do your best not to disrupt their lives, fairly divide assets such as bank accounts and cars, and essentially leave her alone...you'll be seen as dependable and reasonable. If she walks away from her kids, isn't involved in their lives very much, tries to take more than Louisiana Law says is her fair share...she'll be seen as unreliable and unreasonable. Take this time to show the court, by your action, that you are all about the kids and saving "the family unit" and if she wants to walk away (shrug) okay...let her. Make sense? I get it--this HURTS LIKE CRAZY, but if you just keep quiet, judges like to go with status quo. If she establishes status quo of YOU having custody and she just "visits" once a month, that's what they'll order! So just quietly let it happen.


Wow great post full of information. The lawyer i met with today talked to me about 102/103/104. I just left feeling confused on what my next steps should be. It was more of a 2 hour session on louisiana divorce law rather than her hearing my situation and giving me the best advice for what my goals are.

You seem to be well versed...is there any advantage to my wife and I going in now and filling out the "settlement" paperwork. The lawyer made it clear I don't want to go to litigation and that i should reconcile or settle.

***
Side note: I ****ed up again. Lawyer wouldn't take Amex and my only card was debit card linked to joint bank account. What do you know, wife sees the lawyer charge on statement today and calls to ask if i'm trying to get full custody. I told her I was just meeting with a lawyer to get legal advice. She was alarmed that this particular lawyer, according to her website, focused on "father's rights".

I told her I would still like to settle and she wants to meet tomorrow to discuss how to split things. The tide is already to slowly shift from "i don't want to take anything from you" to when i asked her about child support she said "what do you feel comfortable giving?" I can see where this is headed. She is worried about how she's going to support herself and wants money to do things with the kids when she has them. She continued to stress she doesn't want to get lawyers involved so I think i will just walk on eggshells, not rock the boat too much, and give her a bit to keep her from lawyering up and coming after half of everything. I'm not sure what else my play should be at this point.

We are getting lunch tomorrow. I will make sure to record everything on my phone. I also told her I want the whole truth. I told her I'm not stupid; she said she wanted to talk about it in person. I think by this point she knows that I know, probably from the Mom.

So, yay, i get to hear about this other guy straight from the horse's mouth tomorrow.

It has been rough tonight, especially after that call. I can't stop crying. It hurts so much. I should hate her ****ing guts. I somehow keep feeling guilty. I keep thinking "well damn i could have just done this, done that. Why wasn't i more romantic?" I've just been exhausted. I know i played a role in this; just not anywhere as big as I'm feeling. Just when i think I'm beginning to move past, something just sets me back. It's just the swiftness and speed at which this happening and how it doesn't seem to effect her at all. I know she's been preparing for this and has a guy so it makes it easier, but it's just a huge slap in the face and a shot to my self confidence. I wasn't some bum. I got a promotion earlier in the year making 150K, got my MBA and got state licensure. I'm not a bad looking guy. How can this person i thought i knew just move on from a marriage and family so easily? For a guy who just started in real estate? It's not even like she's moving up; which makes it worse. Looks wise, probably. But that won't sustain it. I know it wasn't perfect, we did things to attempt to correct it, but I never once abused her in anyway, did lots to make her happy. I'm just sitting here like I'm in a nightmare I can't wake out of.

Every time i see my kids i just want to start crying. They don't deserve this. They didn't sign up for being tossed around houses every week. They deserve their mom and dad. Why do i want her back? Why do I keep envisioning a history of us having a great relationship when it probably wasn't that great? It's just the ultimate game of wanting what you can't have. It's brutal.

/vent


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## johndoe12299

She's also saying she doesn't want to be told when she can see her kids. Her signing off on full custody is def off the table. She keeps saying she doesn't know what she wants custody-wise in settlement because she doesn't know her living situation, location wise and financially.(she's new real estate agent so no stable income).


Really, I see her regretting what she signs off of and just comes back for more money later in the 3 year period. We shall see.

I'll update after tomorrow's talk


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## johndoe12299

Should we just talking about divvying up the assets and not even give her a chance to talk about the affair? Just tell her I'm over it and don't care? Only plus is I can get it on audio if needed later. I'm sorta leaning towards just showing no interest in it and not "needing an explanation"...

I messed up so hard by telling her Mom i know. That was my one ace up the sleeve and i totally let it out of the bag.


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## MJJEAN

johndoe12299 said:


> I told her I would still like to settle and she wants to meet tomorrow to discuss how to split things. The tide is already to slowly shift from "i don't want to take anything from you" to when i asked her about child support she said "what do you feel comfortable giving?" I can see where this is headed. She is worried about how she's going to support herself and wants money to do things with the kids when she has them. She continued to stress she doesn't want to get lawyers involved so I think i will just walk on eggshells, not rock the boat too much, and give her a bit to keep her from lawyering up and coming after half of everything. I'm not sure what else my play should be at this point.


If you have the children, say 80% of the time there should be no child support owed to her. And this is why I said to file. Because you need to get custody orders in place to keep things kosher until the divorce. As of right now she can come pick up the kids, refuse to return them, and there is literally nothing you can do until you have a court order assigning parenting time that the police can enforce.

She doesn't want lawyers involved NOW because she barely has the kids and that means you'd be considered the custodial parent. Officially. If you keep navel gazing and hand wringing she will start taking the kids more as the affair fog lifts and by the time it goes to court you will no longer be the custodial parent. They you will see your kids less, have less say regarding their lives, and be paying support.

The reality is 330 or so days is a looong time for the situation to change. You cannot act as if she won't change her mind because she's already waffling. You need custody in writing. Now. So she cannot suddenly decide she and the kids should live at her place or to even move somewhere else to be close to her current or next AP.

As far as her not liking being told when she can see her kids, welcome to divorce. Court orders when you can see your kids and that's how it is. Welcome to the real world where actions have consequences.

And if you think giving her a percentage now on the totally verbal promise she won't come back for more later you're delusional. She could take 30% now and decide in 300 days she wants the other 20% she's entitled to and that would be that.

You don't wanna rock the boat. Sure. Don't anger the woman that betrayed you because she might...what? Lawyer up? She'll probably do that anyways and all passivity will do is make you look weak and easy to push over, thus encouraging and emboldening her.



johndoe12299 said:


> Should we just talking about divvying up the assets and not even give her a chance to talk about the affair? Just tell her I'm over it and don't care? Only plus is I can get it on audio if needed later. I'm sorta leaning towards just showing no interest in it and not "needing an explanation"...


There is absolutely zero reason to say a single word to her that is not purely the business of child custody and financial division. She is not your wife anymore. She is not your friend. She isn't even a work buddy. You say nothing to her that isn't strictly business.



johndoe12299 said:


> I messed up so hard by telling her Mom i know. That was my one ace up the sleeve and i totally let it out of the bag.


Why? Why are you talking to her mother? That's her family, not yours. Her mother isn't going to turn her back on her adult child. Anything you say can and will come back to bite you. Stop talking to anyone that is associated with your STBX.


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## BigDaddyNY

johndoe12299 said:


> Should we just talking about divvying up the assets and not even give her a chance to talk about the affair? Just tell her I'm over it and don't care? Only plus is I can get it on audio if needed later. I'm sorta leaning towards just showing no interest in it and not "needing an explanation"...
> 
> I messed up so hard by telling her Mom i know. That was my one ace up the sleeve and i totally let it out of the bag.


I know I would not be able to hold in what you know about the affair. Obviously you don't have all the details, but she is talking to another man for hours on end rather than you, that is an affair plan and simple. I personally would want to at least say I know this is really about you having an affair with another man, not they story you have been feeding me. What I don't know is if that will really make things any better for you.


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## Evinrude58

Divorce and get full custody based on the fact that you’ve been taking care of then full time. 
the more custody you have, the less you’ll pay in child support. That’s why she will start getting the kids more. She will go for 50/50 custody on paper so you’ll pay out the tail on child support. It she will still have you keep them probably 90/10.

get an aggeemwnt hashed iut and this all settled. It isn’t nearly as easy to get this stuff changed and you might think, unless they agreement is really unreasonable.

there’s no need in discussing the AP with her. It will just hurt you more. All your emotions are normal. It will take a long time to get right again, months. Probably a couple of years. But you’ll make it.
All you’ll get if you discuss the other man is to hear her spin things where it makes her look not so bad, excuses...... there is nothing she can say that won’t hurt you. And 95% of it will be a lie. You’ll be enraged because you’ll know it’s a lie, and things will go south. Don’t listen and stop her before she starts in about it.

yes, you are going to get totally ****ed in the divorce, because your wife is a selfish ***** and the law backs up women like her. So get used to the idea.

But, get an agreement at light speed while she still has a little remorse and her buds haven’t had time to educate her on how badly she can screw you over. The sad thing is, the system gives huge rewards to women who do exactly what your wife has done.


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## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> She's also saying she doesn't want to be told when she can see her kids. Her signing off on full custody is def off the table. She keeps saying she doesn't know what she wants custody-wise in settlement because she doesn't know her living situation, location wise and financially.(she's new real estate agent so no stable income).
> 
> 
> Really, I see her regretting what she signs off of and just comes back for more money later in the 3 year period. We shall see.
> 
> I'll update after tomorrow's talk


Bud her shiny new lover will be in her ear. You see this all the time. In the end she’ll probably like most take everything she can get. A friend of mines wife abandoned her kids upfront then woke up and got them 50% for the child support.

She’s a cheater. You can’t believe anything she says. Her actions say she doesn’t give a damn about you or the kids. This is as part of who she is. Wake up to the facts. Stay out of denial. You’ll be a lot better off.


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## Hoosier

OP so sorry you are here! 
I was in your shoes, sort of, 10 years ago. My wife of 30 years suddenly left, I had no idea. Fortunately for me my youngest child was a Sophmore in College so I did not have the "kid issue". Feel free to look at my old thread and you will see what a basket case I was. Couple of things you need to know:
1. The affair is not your fault. No matter what you did or didnt do, the affair is on her. 
2. When dealing with this situation you will make MANY mistakes! Dont let them get you down. Are they better to not have happened? of course. But just learn from them (you seem to be doing an excellent job of that) and strive to do better.)
3. When ever a decision is needed.... MAKE IT! Limbo sucks the soul dry! (you are doing great, top 10% of people on this)
4. The only thing that is going to help is time. Time away from her, time with your kids, time for you to put yourself back together. After my divorce I lost 2 years. I literally could not really function, if not for great employees I would of lost my business. I thought about my situation time after time after time, I could not stop. Now 10 years later its like a long ago dream, thank god! (funny fact, that only NOW while writing this response did I realize that 4 days ago was the 10 year anniversary of my DD. Only now! LOL for 3 years I had to get my self mentally ready to face "July 10th!" ) 
5. Never bad mouth her to the kids. They will figure it out for themselves at some point. Be a rock for them, be positive for them, smile with them, laugh with them, ignore anything to do about her.
6. Watch out for her to make a few moves to keep you available as plan B. Never, ever be a Plan B.

Good luck to you. Need to sound off? Nothing better than this place. Listen to ALL that is said. Some you wont agree with but listen to it all before you decide. One last thing. When my xw left after 30 years, her only insturctions to her attorney was to get it done fast. She gave me a list of 12 things she wanted some crazy things, like a picture frame made of barb wire! and $50k. Had she fought she could of got $500k! I just agreeded to anything she wanted so her wish could come true, a quick divorce, it took us just over 90 days! (Indiana has only no fault divorce, which I thought sucked, but they allow a quick out which was great for me, as she did not have time to change her mind about what she wanted) Keep your head down and ACT. 

Hoosier


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## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Every time i see my kids i just want to start crying. They don't deserve this. They didn't sign up for being tossed around houses every week. They deserve their mom and dad. Why do i want her back? Why do I keep envisioning a history of us having a great relationship when it probably wasn't that great? It's just the ultimate game of wanting what you can't have. It's brutal.


Deserves got nothing to do with where you are now. She’s dealt you this hand. You may not like it but you’d better wake up and effectively deal with it. You and your kids will just suffer more if you don’t.


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## jlg07

johndoe12299 said:


> I somehow keep feeling guilty. I keep thinking "well damn i could have just done this, done that. Why wasn't i more romantic?" I've just been exhausted. I know i played a role in this; just not anywhere as big as I'm feeling.


NO -- SHE is 100% at fault for her affair and dealing with this other guy -- NOT YOU. You didn't play ANY role in her cheating. You didn't drive her to do this. She is DEEP in the affair fog, and is just at the 100% selfish phase (which is why she has left the kids so much...)

Be honest with others and expose her cheating so that SHE doesn't re-write the marital history.


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## johndoe12299

Met her at her place this afternoon to discuss logistics of the kids the next few weeks. We talked over the plans over the next month or so. She will be taking the kids a couple nights a week. 

Before i left she said she had a list of things she wanted to say. The usual; i waited for her to finish and said i can't believe anything you say because you lied this whole time about the guy.

So, i got her to admit to seeing him(she didn't outright say they slept together so bad news for the VAR), she said she didn't want to tell me because she didn't want to think that was the only reason for splitting up and not other stuff int he 10 years we've been together, lol. So i just tell her if there were any marriage threatening issues the answer was communicating those to me and not sleeping with another guy.

She mainly held her head down crying most of the time. I couldn't get her to tell me how long it's gone on. But then told her don't worry about it because i won't believe anything you say. Earliest phone record i found is 4 weeks ago(when she left) but could have easily been physical before the first phone call. I asked about whether the guy's girlfriend knows, she said yeah and that she ended it. I've reached out to her to confirm.

That was that and I left, right after she asked if i was going to tell the kids. No i'm not going to tell my 5 year old their mom left a great life for one off with some shmuck RE agent. They'll be grown adults before they hear the truth. She'll have to live with that the rest of her life.

Big weight is off my chest. Will obviously still take a while, but this is a step in the right direction. Having to think about my wife with another dude is a sickening feeling but what are ya gonna do. Time heals all.


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## johndoe12299

I just want to say again I am so glad I found this forum. Being able to talk about with individuals who have gone through similar situations is no better outlet and the advice is second to none. Thanks all!


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## johndoe12299

jlg07 said:


> NO -- SHE is 100% at fault for her affair and dealing with this other guy -- NOT YOU. You didn't play ANY role in her cheating. You didn't drive her to do this. She is DEEP in the affair fog, and is just at the 100% selfish phase (which is why she has left the kids so much...)
> 
> Be honest with others and expose her cheating so that SHE doesn't re-write the marital history.


oh i know. I'm just saying what's going through my head. Just a part of dealing with infidelity.


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## Affaircare

@johndoe12299 ,

I have a few thoughts:

The first is that no matter what advice you get here on this forum, remember that we are NOT lawyers or legal experts IN YOUR STATE...you lawyer is. As I see it, our job here is to tell you generally "how it goes" or what is likely to happen based on our experience. I've been on this forum for eleven years and been through a divorce and the death of a spouse, plus I am interested in the law so I actually just read it for fun. (Geeky, I know). But I'm not a laywer! So I'll do my best to give you general ideas, and you take the ones that make sense to you or work for you and ask your lawyer about them. Okay? Your lawyer knows YOUR STATE'S LAWS because they are in the trenches. But bear one thing in mind: lawyers do not work "to give you the best legal advice for your individual situation"...they work for billable hours. Their job is to get as many billable hours as possible. Just don't confuse that with "doing what is best for you." Okay?

Next, it seems to me that if you and your STBXW are able to agree on how to split assets and debts and whatnot, then agree to that. If you look at your divorce laws and use a Louisiana Child Support Calculator (like this one: Calculate Child Support Payments in Louisiana) just put in realistic numbers and that's going to be roughly what you may or may not pay in child support. If your kids are under 5yo and you two can agree to a custody plan, then agree to that. My point here is that the more you can agree to, the better...BUT remember that her goal right at the moment is probably to get away so she can be with the boyfriend, and your goal is probably to get as much time with your kids as possible. Soooo...as soon as she is able to get away to be with the boyfriend, she may begin to see it's not all a bed of roses, they can't pay the bills, she can't see her kids, etc. and the tune will change. So if she is agreeable now, it may be a good time to BEGIN to agree to things and get what you can in writing, but it's likely it will change or be challenged during the year of required separation for abandonment.

Next, in your state, there are only two options for custody: joint or sole. I would recommend that you open with joint because it makes you come off as the parent who's willing to be cooperative. Offer joint legal custody and physical custody, but with a little twist. MY OWN physical custody was structured so that my house was the "home base" and the kids had their beds, toys, friends, and stuff at my house...and they could liberally visit their father any time that he or they arranged for a visit. At his house, he had a "spare bedroom" that they could use if they stayed overnight on a weekend, but on a week night he'd just bring them home at the end of the night and let them sleep at my house. I did not go for any alimony but I did request child support since I had them so much...but I asked for it to just be split 50/50 for our households. I got the kids as tax deductions.

Now, on the one hand you might say "WAIT! If I have the kids 95% of the time, I want CS from her! Why should I pay CS if she doesn't have them?" Here's my reasoning: my exH just wanted to go chase skirt. He got his freedom. And my kids got the best opportunity for a stable home. He earned WAY more money than I did (he made $100k+ and I made $25k), so I wanted him to experience the financial responsibility of the kids he helped make. It turned out to be $800/mo. But it was a zillion times more important to me that they have a stable home base! So yeah, to some degree he got let off the hook and "got away with it" --but to me, I was free of him and I knew I could take care of the kids just fine.

Once you've agreed to some asset division, and some debt division, and joint legal custody (that means she gets to make decisions with you), and physical custody with you as "home base" and her with liberal visitation any time she arranges it...she (your STBXW) may feel like you're being pretty fair, and you can take those agreements to your lawyer. Your lawyer can determine the best time to file, get the papers ready, and if you two agree you can co-petition and both sign once the year is over. That would be ideal.

Now in REAL LIFE, it's rarely ideal. But that doesn't mean you can't try to behave as close to this as possible. In real life, splitting assets and debts down the middle is kind of easy. In real life, she's going to get SOME custody. In real life, the judge will likely order some amount of child support, so why not look at a calculator and be as realistic and fair as you can be? Then you can continue to be reasonable as long as she is being partly reasonable. When she goes off the rails, you have a lawyer to protect you. But if, by the grace of God, she never goes off the rails, then you have a relatively civil interaction.


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## Marc878

Nothing unusual. Typical cheater scrip. The important thing is you are starting to wake up. Now you see she’s just a very typical wayward nothing special about her at all.

*This is important.* Communicate only by text or email. Kids or D only. No phone calls made or answered. On pickups/drop offs keep it to 2-3 minutes. Be civil but short. You don’t go into her place or allow her into yours. You will probably get the “let’s be friends”. That is for her not you. It’s to relieve her guilt. We’re friends so he’s ok with what I’m doing. Or the “do it for the kids” thing. She’s never once thought about the kids but she’s more than willing to use them against you for herself. Kids will adjust to a no contact policy. I’ve seen it done well. LEARN TO IGNORE. You don’t owe her anything now.

No contact is important so you don’t keep yourself in this. Make no mistake you are the only one that can keep yourself in limbo.


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## johndoe12299

I spoke to the other guy's GF today. They've been in a relationship 7 years. She basically caught them the first time we think he went see her 4 weeks ago, around after D day. She says she can't find anything from before then so it's looking likely that she left me and met up with him a couple days later. I can't tell if ol girl is in denial or not but he's still living with her??? She basically said she cut him out of her life but he's still there. I didn't get into details of their living arrangement. But he was basically just telling her that "she was in a bad spot" so he was talking to her, lol.

So i told her there are dozens of hours of phone records i have, that although i don't have her admitting to sex on the VAR, she admitted to "it" lasting the last 4 weeks. And judging from how emotional her response was, i know there is sex involved.

Anyway, here's the kicker. The girl tells me that she's the breadwinner and that the guy hasn't ever really held a job. He just started in real estate but isn't making any money.

How's that for a kick in the gut? That's even worse for my self confidence. I know i shouldn't be thinking this but all I'm thinking now is "were my flaws that bad? to drive my wife to leave the family for a dude with absolutely nothing going for him? Was i that oblivious to the issues?"

Also, no surprise, but she wants CS now. She spoke to a lawyer today and all of a sudden she wants the kids half the time. She "couldn't focus on the kids while worrying about how to make money". It's either give her some money or she can just file papers and the courts will force me to pay. She wants to avoid litigation. I'm going to get a 2nd opinion from a lawyer monday, and see if pushing the "unfit mother" angle is worth the time and money.


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## manowar

johndoe12299 said:


> I wasn't some bum. I got a promotion earlier in the year making 150K, got my MBA and got state licensure. I'm not a bad looking guy. How can this person i thought i knew just move on from a marriage and family so easily?



You are in a very good position moving forward once you put this behind you. Better than you are aware. Sounds like you are around 40. A guy who has his act together. The rules change for men like you. The dating game you remember from your 20s no longer applies where women had the upper hand. those days are over.. Read the rational male book and watch the videos by rollo tomassi. Check out rich cooper's videos and book. Gain insight This is hard on you because you got blindsided out of leftfield.

She can move on because she's in fantasy land. Nothing you can do about that. Go 180 on her. Stop doing all the stuff you used to do as her husband. the stuff she relied on you to do. Stop giving her money, paying her credit card bills, car inspections, registration, fixing things, etc....Let her fend for herself. New guy won't be able to give her the material life that you provided and she got used to. She'll quickly find that out. I wouldn't be surprised if she comes crawling back in the not-too-distant future when reality sets in. Be prepared.


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## johndoe12299

Currently debating between exposure or not. Just read this article:





When Should an Affair Be Exposed : Marriage Builders, Inc.


The issue of exposure of an affair comes up when a betrayed spouse has first learned about the affair. Should it be exposed to others, or kept secret? I almost always recommend exposure. When...




www.marriagebuilders.com





My reservation is that in LA basically immediately once papers are served, I'm required to start paying CS and Alimony. Right now, she doesn't want alimony, just help with CS. She is good with not filing any papers and me just sending her some money every month. Exposing her will almost positively piss her off and the consequences would very likely be her filing and also requesting alimony. So, while I would love to show everyone the truth, including her employer since they work together; it seems it would be an unwise financial move. I will verify with 2nd lawyer opinion Monday, but it seems it's in my best interests just to suck it up and bear it, at least unitl the 365 days have passed and we file. Then, you can't get back pay in CS and alimony.


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## Affaircare

@johndoe12299 .

It's my understanding that exposure is a technique used when a person is trying to save their marriage. In other words, to save a marriage it is REQUIRED that the affair end. To end an affair, one of the quickest ways is to shine a light on it rather then continuing to "cover" for it to others (such as involved family). So exposure is not just "broadcasting it on Facebook" per se, but rather, openly telling the facts of infidelity to those who will likely be impacted such as siblings, parents, and even best friends. If this is your intent, exposure is an option--and I personally ALWAYS support honesty and not the "we drifted apart" nonsense. That's an outright lie! You stayed in the marriage and worked on your family, and she committed adultery! Letting others know and even having some proof available for disclosure will be like shining a light. 

But you're right, she will be mad! Mad as a wet hen!! Here's the way I see it: a marriage can survive anger but it can not survive ongoing adultery!

Now, if you are set on divorce and there is no desire for an attempt to reconcile, then I would advise against exposure. If that is your course, then likely you'll get a more favorable result by just agreeing with her, giving her $X per month for a year, filing with agreement already established, and just having a judge rubber stamp it. You know she cheated, and she may even admit she did, but if you are just determinied to divorce, what would be the advantage of exposure? None, I can see. Now that doesn't mean you need to cover up the truth, but rather you would not use the technique of specifically choosing the folks who are most impacted (parents, siblings, mentors, best friends) and revealing to them the proof of adultery that you care to share. Instead, when these impacted people talk to you, you'd say "Well I'm not sure what STBXW may have told you, but we are divorcing at her insistance because she met someone and emotionally cheated on me and then moved out with no warning. I didn't want this and yet here we are."


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## johndoe12299

manowar said:


> You are in a very good position moving forward once you put this behind you. Better than you are aware. Sounds like you are around 40. A guy who has his act together. The rules change for men like you. The dating game you remember from your 20s no longer applies where women had the upper hand. those days are over.. Read the rational male book and watch the videos by rollo tomassi. Check out rich cooper's videos and book. Gain insight This is hard on you because you got blindsided out of leftfield.
> 
> She can move on because she's in fantasy land. Nothing you can do about that. Go 180 on her. Stop doing all the stuff you used to do as her husband. the stuff she relied on you to do. Stop giving her money, paying her credit card bills, car inspections, registration, fixing things, etc....Let her fend for herself. New guy won't be able to give her the material life that you provided and she got used to. She'll quickly find that out. I wouldn't be surprised if she comes crawling back in the not-too-distant future when reality sets in. Be prepared.


Thanks buddy. I'm 36. I will check out those books. I honestly never had much game, lol. So now being 10 years out of the game, I especially have catching up to do.

This 30 day period has kicked off extreme weight loss due to not eating; so i'm down 10lb and at my lowest weight in the last decade probably. IT's good though, got rid of some fat, now i have something to build off of. Will start working out and getting ready to hit the market once this 365 days are up.


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## johndoe12299

Trying the 180 but having trouble with this one:

*17.* Don’t be nasty, angry or even cold – Just pull yourself back. Don’t always be so available…for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you’re missing. 

Since kids are involved i have to see her a lot. I really don't want to have any discussion with her at all when I see her, outside of the kids. Well, when i picked up the kids today she asked why i was dressed up. Lol, i basically pretended i didn't hear her and started talking to our daughter.

I know that is not the right way to handle it, so what's your advice? That probably just comes off as passive aggressive and moody. But, if i answer her question, i know it will lead to others and i don't want to engage in conversation. Do i just straight up tell her i don't want to discuss anything outside of kids so that this situation doesn't arise?


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## johndoe12299

also, this one:

*12.* Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent. 

It just seems if I am cheerful around her she will think I am OK with all she has done. It's tough.


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## anchorwatch

johndoe12299 said:


> also, this one:
> 
> *12.* Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.
> 
> It just seems if I am cheerful around her she will think I am OK with all she has done. It's tough.


The 180 is not written in stone. It's just a guide. You adjust it for yourself and your situation. 

Best


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## Affaircare

johndoe12299 said:


> Trying the 180 but having trouble with this one:
> 
> *17. Don’t be nasty, angry or even cold – Just pull yourself back. Don’t always be so available…for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you’re missing.*
> 
> Since kids are involved i have to see her a lot. I really don't want to have any discussion with her at all when I see her, outside of the kids. Well, when i picked up the kids today she asked why i was dressed up. Lol, i basically pretended i didn't hear her and started talking to our daughter.
> 
> I know that is not the right way to handle it, so what's your advice? That probably just comes off as passive aggressive and moody. But, if i answer her question, i know it will lead to others and i don't want to engage in conversation. Do i just straight up tell her i don't want to discuss anything outside of kids so that this situation doesn't arise?


Okay so the theory of the 180 is like doing a U-turn. What you had been doing in the past did not work (does not work) and so you do the exact opposite. Another way of thinking of it is to live George Castanza Day: do the opposite! LOL For this one, the intent is that many Betrayed Spouses (BS) tend to chase the Wayward Spouse (WS) around, and if the WS ever says "Hey can you watch the kids?" or "Hey, can I come over?" they drop everything and say SURE! It kind of feels like they sit around next to the phone, hoping the WS will call (and honestly, some may actually do that). That didn't work! 

So the opposite would be something not always being around. When you go over and you're dressed up, if she asks I think it is a GREAT response to look right at her, smile, and say nothing. Let her know you heard "hmm...you're dressed up...how come?" but just don't feel the need to answer. In addition, when she is asking "Can you meet me at the park?" "Can you.....?" just occasionally say no. "I'm sorry I have something scheduled and can't make it." The End. Because what often (usually) happens is that a WS wants the freedom to cheat, but they want to keep their BS as their safety net/backup plan in case the cheating doesn't work out! So she wants freedom? Cool...give her some. She last minute wants to pick up the kids? "Oh I'm sorry that doesn't work with OUR schedule, but maybe next time." "Oh we are out. Can't talk now...bye!" 

Now I'm not saying you have to start dating! Nor am I saying to lie to your WS. Rather, I'm saying, get busy living your own life and doing your own schedule, and if she wants to fire you from the job of caring about her, then so be it. You are not at her beck and call any longer. Practice saying no.



> also, this one:
> 
> *12. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent. *
> 
> It just seems if I am cheerful around her she will think I am OK with all she has done. It's tough.


Actually quite the opposite. Many (most) BSs will mope and look like their life has ended because the WS left, and what that communicates to the WS is "you still have your hooks in me" and "I am still your backup plan." On the other hand, this suggestion is saying to maybe show some confidence and act in a way that says, "Well, I'm not sure about you, babycakes, but I for one am going to be more than okay if you walk away. Sorry you're leaving but don't let the door hit ya in the ass!" LOL Being cheerful doesn't mean dancing around whistling, but rather not that moping and begging "Please come back to me! Please let's be the way we were." Imagine her surprise if she came to you and said she'd like to come back home and be the way it was, and you said, "Oh no. I didn't realize, but I'm quite happy alone and would never want to be where we were. I can't believe I accepted that little from a partner." :-O She'd be SHOCKED! 

When you act mopey or even angry-sometimes-you are communicating she has sway over you and your emotions, but if you act like life is good (because guess what? IT IS!!!), and like you are capable of handling this, and like you are confident and don't really need her (because guess what? YOU DON'T!!!), then you are communicating that she no longer has power over you or your emotions. YOU are in charge of you, and YOU GOT THIS! And you want to act like that with her. 

Final thought: my Beloved Buddhist and I are ecstatically married. We do dearly love each other. But we do not need each other. He has said he volunteers to be committed to me in front of our families, but I do not need him to survive, and he doesn't need me to survive. I have no doubt that if one or the other of us left, we would be sad. But we aren't here out of requirement or "need"--we are voluntarily together and act in a loving way toward one another because that's what we choose to do. @johndoe12299 your STBX has said she doesn't want to volunteer for that anymore, so yep that's sad, but let her go. Act like you are doing well and alright without her because YOU ARE.


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## manowar

johndoe12299 said:


> Well, when i picked up the kids today she asked why i was dressed up. Lol, i basically pretended i didn't hear her and started talking to our daughter.



Dressed up is good. No explanation is required. That's not passive-aggressive. Losing weight and going to the gym - great move. . This is what you want to do. You're handling this well.

You've been set free. Tell her! You can do what you want. You come first. It's that simple. The first principle is never to put a woman first. Don't know if you did this with the wife. But don't do it. I realize this goes against your clergyman's teachings of woman is princess, bend the knee, she's the prize, you're lucky to have her. All of it is designed to create beta providers. 

Sure you got kicked in the balls and it is traumatic but you have entered your prime. And your wife knows it. This is the sweet spot for a man from around 34-44/45. It's sort of the equivalent if your wife was 23/24 again. You have an mba, good career, bank, smarts, solid in the looks, leadership qualities (this is really important as you begin to understand female nature/psychology) -- This stuff means something now. A lot in the sexual marketplace where your stock has risen. You don't need great game with these creds. But be careful, you don't want to fall into the _provider trap_. That's why it's imperative that you understand how the dating/relationship game_ really_ works. Again your clergyman won't tell you this. He and the system want you providing again asap. Preferably with a single mother with children. The mixed family thing. You don't want to go there. Repeat - no mixed family ever.

Check out two videos by CRP - coach red pill. 1) three things women want (2017). Corny title but he lays out basic female psychology very well and accurately. 2) Eastern European Woman - Again he lays out female psychology well. Info you need to understand going back out into the sexual marketplace. You are in a position to go down 8/10 years dating women in their late 20s if this interests you. You have 365 days to prepare and get it right where you are in control.


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## johndoe12299

Probably a topic for a different thread...but about the single mom thing. I mean, i'm a single dad. How many women with no kids want to date a dude with that baggage?


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## johndoe12299

Affaircare said:


> Okay so the theory of the 180 is like doing a U-turn. What you had been doing in the past did not work (does not work) and so you do the exact opposite. Another way of thinking of it is to live George Castanza Day: do the opposite! LOL For this one, the intent is that many Betrayed Spouses (BS) tend to chase the Wayward Spouse (WS) around, and if the WS ever says "Hey can you watch the kids?" or "Hey, can I come over?" they drop everything and say SURE! It kind of feels like they sit around next to the phone, hoping the WS will call (and honestly, some may actually do that). That didn't work!
> 
> So the opposite would be something not always being around. When you go over and you're dressed up, if she asks I think it is a GREAT response to look right at her, smile, and say nothing. Let her know you heard "hmm...you're dressed up...how come?" but just don't feel the need to answer. In addition, when she is asking "Can you meet me at the park?" "Can you.....?" just occasionally say no. "I'm sorry I have something scheduled and can't make it." The End. Because what often (usually) happens is that a WS wants the freedom to cheat, but they want to keep their BS as their safety net/backup plan in case the cheating doesn't work out! So she wants freedom? Cool...give her some. She last minute wants to pick up the kids? "Oh I'm sorry that doesn't work with OUR schedule, but maybe next time." "Oh we are out. Can't talk now...bye!"
> 
> Now I'm not saying you have to start dating! Nor am I saying to lie to your WS. Rather, I'm saying, get busy living your own life and doing your own schedule, and if she wants to fire you from the job of caring about her, then so be it. You are not at her beck and call any longer. Practice saying no.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually quite the opposite. Many (most) BSs will mope and look like their life has ended because the WS left, and what that communicates to the WS is "you still have your hooks in me" and "I am still your backup plan." On the other hand, this suggestion is saying to maybe show some confidence and act in a way that says, "Well, I'm not sure about you, babycakes, but I for one am going to be more than okay if you walk away. Sorry you're leaving but don't let the door hit ya in the ass!" LOL Being cheerful doesn't mean dancing around whistling, but rather not that moping and begging "Please come back to me! Please let's be the way we were." Imagine her surprise if she came to you and said she'd like to come back home and be the way it was, and you said, "Oh no. I didn't realize, but I'm quite happy alone and would never want to be where we were. I can't believe I accepted that little from a partner." :-O She'd be SHOCKED!
> 
> When you act mopey or even angry-sometimes-you are communicating she has sway over you and your emotions, but if you act like life is good (because guess what? IT IS!!!), and like you are capable of handling this, and like you are confident and don't really need her (because guess what? YOU DON'T!!!), then you are communicating that she no longer has power over you or your emotions. YOU are in charge of you, and YOU GOT THIS! And you want to act like that with her.
> 
> Final thought: my Beloved Buddhist and I are ecstatically married. We do dearly love each other. But we do not need each other. He has said he volunteers to be committed to me in front of our families, but I do not need him to survive, and he doesn't need me to survive. I have no doubt that if one or the other of us left, we would be sad. But we aren't here out of requirement or "need"--we are voluntarily together and act in a loving way toward one another because that's what we choose to do. @johndoe12299 your STBX has said she doesn't want to volunteer for that anymore, so yep that's sad, but let her go. Act like you are doing well and alright without her because YOU ARE.


you are awesome!

Every time I read these posts it brings my spirits up. I think i now just need to get out of this house. I think this process would be easier if i didn't have constant reminders of her/our old family activities at every turn. That's been the hardest part, just playing board games with my daughter, riding bikes in the neighborhood. All things the wife was there for. It just feels so empty with her not being a part of the family. The thought of kids not growing up with their mom and dad together just makes me sick to my stomach; and just rekindles my hatred for her. I know they are better off with two happy, separated parents rather than 2 miserable ones, but it didn't have to be this way. I am still occasionally falling into the trap of "damn the signs were there, all it took was some small changes". It's tough at times but I'm trying to hang in.


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## Kaliber

johndoe12299 said:


> Probably a topic for a different thread...but about the single mom thing. I mean, I'm a single dad. How many women with no kids want to date a dude with that baggage?


If you got your crap together, many many will (I know that for a fact)
part of having your crap together is hitting the gym religiously and getting V shaped!

Read these books, very important:
Practical Female Psychology: For the Practical Man - Kindle edition by South, Joseph. Health, Fitness & Dieting Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

Amazon.com: What Women Want When They Test Men: How to Decode Female Behavior, Pass a Woman's Tests, and Attract Women Through Authenticity (Audible Audio Edition): Bruce Bryans, Greg Zarcone, Bruce Bryans: Audible Audiobooks

Amazon.com: The Unplugged Alpha: The No Bullsh*t Guide to Winning with Women & Life (Audible Audio Edition): Richard Cooper, Richard Cooper, Richard Cooper: Audible Audiobooks

Amazon.com: The Rational Male (Audible Audio Edition): Rollo Tomassi, Sam Botta, Rollo Tomassi: Audible Audiobooks (there are THREE volumes, this is number one)

Warning 1: What you're about to learn, will never be unlearned!
Warning 2: You will know that you have been sold a big lie about relationship and its dynamics!


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## johndoe12299

I went through the unplugged alpha's red flags of who not to date. I think my wife hit 3 of the 5! Where was this 10-15 years ago?

I have ordered the last 2 on your list. Will knock them all out in the next year.


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## Kaliber

johndoe12299 said:


> I went through the unplugged alpha's red flags of who not to date. I think my wife hit 3 of the 5! Where was this 10-15 years ago?
> 
> I have ordered the last 2 on your list. Will knock them all out in the next year.


Oh dear 3 out of 5 is really huge!
Can you share the red flags please?
It will help many BS here!


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## johndoe12299

#1 - Daddy issues - no relationship with her father. He is a scumbag and had some sort of inappropriate relationship with her and sisters when young. hasn't spoken to him in 20+ years.

Also had scumbag stepdads in and out of her life.

#3 - the unhappy and unlucky - this one sorta. At the beginning I felt like she "needed saving" and i was the poor shmuck for the job. Not always unhappy, but i always felt like there was a moving target and she wasn't ever satisfied no matter what i did. We discussed this in counseling.

#6 - poor with money - she had 35k worth of student loans when we met(want to guess who paid them off?). Not much fault of her own. Again, no father growing up and her mom had 5 kids by the age of 21; so not great examples for her.

#8 - extreme jealousy - at the beginning this was a big deal. Once i was at a casino and commented on getting a massage from one of the masseses there and she was irate. This was probably a year or two into the relationship. She became indifferent later(probably a warning flag i should have noticed).

#11 - notch count - i never asked her number, nor cared to know, and she didn't ask mine. But, it was probably up there if i had to guess. See: daddy issues


Man, writing this all out, and everything I read; is a real eye opener. I'm thinking while rough now, this has been a blessing in disguise.


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## Kaliber

johndoe12299 said:


> #1 - Daddy issues - no relationship with her father. He is a scumbag and had some sort of inappropriate relationship with her and sisters when young. hasn't spoken to him in 20+ years.
> 
> Also had scumbag stepdads in and out of her life.
> 
> #3 - the unhappy and unlucky - this one sorta. At the beginning I felt like she "needed saving" and i was the poor shmuck for the job. Not always unhappy, but i always felt like there was a moving target and she wasn't ever satisfied no matter what i did. We discussed this in counseling.
> 
> #6 - poor with money - she had 35k worth of student loans when we met(want to guess who paid them off?). Not much fault of her own. Again, no father growing up and her mom had 5 kids by the age of 21; so not great examples for her.
> 
> #8 - extreme jealousy - at the beginning this was a big deal. Once i was at a casino and commented on getting a massage from one of the masseses there and she was irate. This was probably a year or two into the relationship. She became indifferent later(probably a warning flag i should have noticed).
> 
> #11 - notch count - i never asked her number, nor cared to know, and she didn't ask mine. But, it was probably up there if i had to guess. See: daddy issues
> 
> 
> Man, writing this all out, and everything I read; is a real eye opener. I'm thinking while rough now, this has been a blessing in disguise.


I will barrow and update @Affaircare quote:


Affaircare said:


> When you act mopey or even angry-sometimes-you are communicating she has sway over you and your emotions, but if you act like *YOU KNOW* life is good (because guess what? IT IS!!!), and like *YOU KNOW *you are capable of handling this, and like *YOU KNOW *you are confident and don't really need her (because guess what? YOU DON'T!!!), then you are communicating that she no longer has power over you or your emotions. YOU are in charge of you, and YOU GOT THIS! And you want to act *WILL BE *like that with her, *BECAUSE THIS IS @johndoe12299 Version 2.0*


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## MJJEAN

johndoe12299 said:


> My reservation is that in LA basically immediately once papers are served, I'm required to start paying CS and Alimony. Right now, she doesn't want alimony, just help with CS. She is good with not filing any papers and me just sending her some money every month.


Run this by a lawyer. In my state anything given outside the court is considered a "gift" unless by check or money order with "for child support" written on the memo line or with a written and signed, by the payee, receipt. Find out exactly what your legal obligation to your STBX is and how to keep records to submit to the court should it be necessary.



johndoe12299 said:


> Probably a topic for a different thread...but about the single mom thing. I mean, i'm a single dad. How many women with no kids want to date a dude with that baggage?


Why a woman with no kids? Not judging. Just curious. 

I was 24, on the way out of a bad marriage, with 2 kids, when I met my DH. He was also 24, had never been married, and did not have children or even know anybody who did. He'd never imagined anyone with kids, but we fell in love instantly and he adjusted his thinking to include kids. I, however, wasn't so flexible in my thinking. I DID NOT want a man with kids. First, I didn't want a man who had that kind of bond with someone else. Second, some kids are just jerks. Third, baby momma drama. And, finally, having kids of my own with an absent ex was complicated enough.

My friends, however, have all seriously dated or married men with kids. It seems a lot of people are fairly flexible in terms of whether or not kids are a dealbreaker. Your behavior and the kids behavior really make a difference here. If you're healthily detached from the ex with good boundaries and your kids are well behaved and respectful I don't think you'd be disqualified by many women.


----------



## manowar

johndoe12299 said:


> Probably a topic for a different thread...but about the single mom thing. I mean, i'm a single dad. How many women with no kids want to date a dude with that baggage?


 This response alone tells me you have some learning ahead. This is not the 1950s, the hallmark Christmas channel, or the romantic comedy. If you don't learn the rules, then let fate rule your destiny as you search for love. [sarcasim]



johndoe12299 said:


> I went through the unplugged alpha's red flags of who not to date. I think my wife hit 3 of the 5! Where was this 10-15 years ago?


You failed to qualify her properly. you weren't paying attention. We are often told that buying a house is the biggest investment we'll ever make. No. Choosing the right wife is the biggest investment for a man. instead, most men believe the myth narrative. 

Make sure you read the Joe South Book. I think your wife is LSE (low self-esteem) based on what you wrote. LSE women are to be disqualified as marriage prospects. Dating them is ok so long as you understand what you're dealing with.

We are just pointing you in the right direction. the work is up to you. You can choose to ignore it and follow your own path. business as usual or try to see the world for what it is. Again don't expect this stuff from your clergyman.


----------



## manowar

johndoe12299 said:


> #3 - the unhappy and unlucky - this one sorta. At the beginning I felt like she "needed saving" and i was the poor shmuck for the job. Not always unhappy, but i always felt like there was a moving target and she wasn't ever satisfied no matter what i did. We discussed this in counseling.


 White Knight behavior. Never satisfied with what you did (indicator of LSE). Always on to the next thing; wanting more. You adapted into the serviceable provider for your princess. 



johndoe12299 said:


> #6 - poor with money - she had 35k worth of student loans when we met(*want to guess who paid them off?*). Not much fault of her own. Again, no father growing up and her mom had 5 kids by the age of 21; so not great examples for her.


See Briffault's Law. 

"Not much fault of her own". - Don't make excuses. Accept them for what they are. You're not going to change them into what you consider acceptable. 

All red flags that you chose to ignore. You knew it in your gut but let it go. Nos 1 and 11 are serious. Understand that all relationships nowadays have an expiration date.


----------



## Imnobodynew

You have free will. Follow your faith, walk straight. Do not commit iniquity in your heart. Just cut all of her out. Let her have her path. Lifes too short. Walk forward and serve your God. 

Alot of of bs in the faith tend to worship thier horrible situation instead of the love that God has displayed wrongfully saying that they are trying to forgive and love.

The truth of the matter is they worship their misery. Thinking that martyrdom is goodness an it's not. Walk forward. Be honest with yourself. You don't like this person who can justify her existence. So cut it out. If your power to be decides that it meant it be, your God will restore it. You know as a christian I believe in free will. My God doesn't force us to do anything, just sets us up onto do right and gives us a choice. 

do the 180
Be emotionally detached
Read no more mr nice guy
Stay away from engaging unless it about childcare.


----------



## johndoe12299

manowar said:


> White Knight behavior. Never satisfied with what you did (indicator of LSE). Always on to the next thing; wanting more. You adapted into the serviceable provider for your princess.
> 
> 
> 
> See Briffault's Law.
> 
> "Not much fault of her own". - Don't make excuses. Accept them for what they are. You're not going to change them into what you consider acceptable.
> 
> All red flags that you chose to ignore. You knew it in your gut but let it go. Nos 1 and 11 are serious. Understand that all relationships nowadays have an expiration date.


Agree, although it's not that i "chose to ignore". I was young, naive, and didn't know any better. Caution flags? sure. Marriage threatening? I wouldn't have guessed at the time. With age comes wisdom. All i can do now is learn from my mistakes.


----------



## Beach123

Can you see why I said in the beginning of this thread to separate all your assets? She shouldn’t need to see how you are spending your money! 

Also, since you have the kids 90% of the time it seems that SHE should owe YOU child support money every month!

And I would show the court she’s the cheater. It’s who she is - so just show the evidence. That - and the fact that she isn’t being the kids mother! 
Wild hyena’s couldn’t have kept me from my kids! 
She’s a terrible Mother! Cut off her access to money and tell her to earn it herself! Quit feeling like you need to be reasonable with her…you don’t! She’s despicable! Treat her as such!!!

I’d file the papers! Show the court she isn’t hardly seeing her kids - and work that money against her spousal support she may get. Hopefully she ends up owing you every month.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Trying the 180 but having trouble with this one:
> 
> *17.* Don’t be nasty, angry or even cold – Just pull yourself back. Don’t always be so available…for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you’re missing.
> 
> Since kids are involved i have to see her a lot. I really don't want to have any discussion with her at all when I see her, outside of the kids. Well, when i picked up the kids today she asked why i was dressed up. Lol, i basically pretended i didn't hear her and started talking to our daughter.
> 
> I know that is not the right way to handle it, so what's your advice? That probably just comes off as passive aggressive and moody. But, if i answer her question, i know it will lead to others and i don't want to engage in conversation. Do i just straight up tell her i don't want to discuss anything outside of kids so that this situation doesn't arise?


Learn to ignore. You don’t owe her a thing. Kids or D. Text/email. If not you’ll linger longer in this. 
civil/short. On pickups/drop offs you get it done and leave. Don’t stand around and have a chat.


----------



## Marc878

Her other man she picked maybe a loser but that’s who she is. Always was a will be. 

Work on fixing your picker. You will be fine.


----------



## MattMatt

johndoe12299 said:


> Probably a topic for a different thread...but about the single mom thing. I mean, i'm a single dad. How many women with no kids want to date a dude with that baggage?


Those impressed with how good a dad you are? The type of women you'd want in your life, that is.


----------



## johndoe12299

She met with lawyer last week and suddenly she wants the kids, now that she gets CS and doesn't have to "stress how she will make money and can enjoy kids more". I agreed to the CS that lawyer ccame up with based on the formula. 

I pissed her off more when i tried going down on it because she forgot to tell her lawyer some numbers. Now that set off something in her and she will likely pursue spousal support as well, which she originally said she didn't want. It's kind of what i've been saying; i can't really say or do anything to rock the boat b/c she has all the leverage. I basically just need to keep my mouth shut and get her to sign some favorable papers asap. My lawyer is drawing up the papers tomorrow; hopefully she's in a good mood when we get to the signing table and I don't get hit too hard for spousal support.


I also failed hard at the 180 the other night. When we had the talk about CS and SS, i just prodded her more for an explanation/closure. Stupid, i know. I had a moment of weakness. What was most surprising is that it just sounds like she has a ton of resentment towards me. It's honestly a shock. Things I never knew she had problems with came out.

"You got to better your career, pursue MBA etc while I stayed home with the kids" < in which i told her not only was that to better myself, but i was bettering myself to put the FAMILY in a better situation

"I could never tell you anything without it leading to an argument so i just kept my mouth shut" < That one hurts, all it does is make me get in my head and ask myself am i really like that?

"it was always going to be your way or no way" "tired of asking for things"

Seems like a lot of her resentment stems from financial issues and how i managed the money...but like i told her, if it was all about myself i would have never touched her student loan debt and she'd be leaving this marriage with a 35k cloud over her head. Now she is walking away scot free.

I just need to stop. I know i know. You all keep telling me. I just keep asking myself "this is all ending because of her issues with the way i handled the money? She couldn't talk to me about it?" 

It's just that I often comprimised with her on things. I was never the "my way or the highway guy". I just always felt like her happiness was a moving target. _shrugs_

I just want this to be over.


----------



## Evinrude58

Anyone here could tell you that cheaters rewrite marital history and make their spouse a monster in their minds so they feel justified in their horrible betrayal.
We also told you that she’s go for the jugular in divorce so be prepared.
NOne of this is about you other than using you for her financial gain. She is 100% totally your enemy and should be treated as such. Don’t worry about your emotions. She will beat out Anything positive you felt for her, just give it time.
The good thing is: The dating tables turn when you get older. You have likely got more beautiful, more intelligent ladies to look forward to. Just be sure their character matches their appearance.


----------



## MattMatt

@johndoe12299 She is following the script so often seen. She is reinventing the history of the marriage, she is monsterising you and she is gaslighting you.

The idea of recording interactions is a good one as it stops her from claiming abuse, etc.


----------



## manowar

johndoe12299 said:


> "it was always going to be your way or no way" "tired of asking for things"



yeah as if she knows what its like being you. The crap that you have to deal with day in and day out at work and supporting her. This is all bullshyt from a child. I guess she's claiming you were "cheap". this is classic from some woman who have no fking concept of what it takes to make money. You did the right thing than spending it on her frivilous crap. 



johndoe12299 said:


> resentment stems from financial issues and how i managed the money.


 Lets she what she gets from the entry level re agent. She has no clue what's in her future. Could she be that stupid? 
Are you a wallet that is supposed to spend for her amusement? 



johndoe12299 said:


> "You got to better your career, pursue MBA etc while I stayed home with the kids"


 Ok -- as if you were going to let this nit wit pilot the ship. this is all talk. Its EMOTION.



johndoe12299 said:


> 35k cloud over her head.


 this tells me you are responsible thinking you were doing the right thing for your family. She simply cannot understand. She lacks the capability. Ask her to pay you back. try to get it in the asset split if she eventually goes for the max which I excpect her to do.

Did she give you the riddle - ILYBANILWY - i love you but am not in love w/ you. Did she claim you are boring or any of that crap. 



johndoe12299 said:


> I just always felt like her happiness was a moving target.


 Indicative of Low self esteem. By the way low self esteem women tend to sabatoge good relationships after a few years. They feel like they don't deserve it. They are hard wired for dysfunction. Tend to thrive on drama. 

This chick is useless to you. 5 years out you will be way ahead of her and happy she's in your past. She's got an entry level RE agent in a RE market that's in a huge bubble. Three massive financial bubbles that have never existed at this magnitude. Bonds, Stocks, RE. A big reset is coming. The RE man will never be able to provide to what she's gotten accustomed to. Stick to the script.


----------



## manowar

forgot to mention. No matter how much you spent on her it would not have mattered. It wouldnt have made her happier or made a difference. This is the end result because its what you have to work with.

Advice. Stash some money away.


----------



## johndoe12299

Went pay the lawyer to get the paperwork started. Now it's up to the ww and I to agree on things amicably and hopefully avoid litigation. Child support is a formula so that is straight forward, but i don't think spousal support works that way. Hopefully we can agree on something and move forward.

To top it off, i tested positive for covid today and feel like absolute ****. And i have the kids so they have to stay with me until quarantine is over...while trying to work remotely. When it rains it pours i suppose.

Find myself crying a lot the last few days. I am still just having trouble coping with how fast things changed. I just wonder how long she has been checked out. We had a decent few months leading up to D day. I just can't understand how it can go from that to just wanting a divorce so quickly. That's what hurts the most. Just wanting to feel wanted, and your best friend just totally doesn't see you in that light anymore. I know i should hate her. And I do to some degree, but still have that soft spot in my heart for her. It's almost like i just hate not being in control. It's like I WANT her to want me back so i can be the one to say no. Is that normal? Like, i know it would never be the same physically but in a way i want her back for the family unit. Lots of thoughts running through my head. I just want to fast forward 5 months from now.

Reading Rational Male and NMMNG concurrently. I'm struggling with the nihilistic view on relationships...but will continue reading.


----------



## cp3o

johndoe12299 said:


> Is that normal?


Yes - at this stage anything and everything is normal. 

Normal people cannot overnight break the habits of years. Your brain is struggling to accommodate two incompatible concepts. One is the character of the woman you love - the other is the character of the woman you love - brains don't do that easily.

When I finally realised that I loved an image, a false image that I had helped create and loved fiercely for years, that did not resemble the woman to whom I was married I realised that she was, in reality, someone that I disliked. She was someone that, had we then met at a social event, I would have been polite to and then moved on as fast as decently possible.

You will get there - but probably not today or tomorrow.


----------



## snerg

Imnobodynew said:


> You have free will. Follow your faith, walk straight. Do not commit iniquity in your heart. Just cut all of her out. Let her have her path. Lifes too short. Walk forward and serve your God.
> 
> Alot of of bs in the faith tend to worship thier horrible situation instead of the love that God has displayed wrongfully saying that they are trying to forgive and love.
> 
> The truth of the matter is they worship their misery. Thinking that martyrdom is goodness an it's not. Walk forward. Be honest with yourself. You don't like this person who can justify her existence. So cut it out. If your power to be decides that it meant it be, your God will restore it. You know as a christian I believe in free will. My God doesn't force us to do anything, just sets us up onto do right and gives us a choice.
> 
> do the 180
> Be emotionally detached
> Read no more mr nice guy
> Stay away from engaging unless it about childcare.


I would like to say this is a most excellent approach.
This thought process can apply to those of faith and non believers.


----------



## johndoe12299

It's just the kids involved. Reality is setting in that I will only see my kids for half the time as they grow up. That ****ing kills me. I've been reading up on different stats related to kids from divorced households and it's sickening. Not being able to be a positive male influence for both my kids 100% of the time makes me ill, and hate her even more. I just can't believe that it went straight to this and no talk about counseling or going over the issues.


----------



## MEA

johndoe12299 said:


> Hey all, thank you for all the advice and words.
> 
> Just for full transparency, she hasn't completely abandoned the kids. She has picked them up from day care some days and spent the afternoons with them, until she leaves at night to go back to her place. She calls to tell them goodnight, etc. Although they have only slept with her 2 nights of the last 33. The rest were at my house with me. Just wanted to get that out there; it's not a situation of full blown abandonment, fwiw.
> 
> 
> So, I met with the lawyer today; and honestly i'm walking away more confused than ever. Louisiana is a backwards ass state, obviously; as we are the only state in the union that follows civil law, and not common law.
> 
> Basically, my lawyer's advice to me was to carry on as much as i can and wait out the 365 day period we have to be separated. The earlier i serve papers, the earlier i have to pay spousal support.
> 
> It was a ton of information and my head is spinning at this point. I told her my wife seems to want to have an "easy" splitup and not take anything...however even if we get that in writing, statute of limitations is 3 years and she can dissolve anything in writing and come back for her half.
> 
> This is ****ed.


In Louisiana, it looks like you can choose to file a “fault” divorce.
If you so this, you may avoid paying alimony.
I know you love your wife and are distraught right now, but your wife sickens me.
She lied to you, cheated on you, is a hypocrite, went on several vacations with your blessing and pity during all of this (used you for money), and used her traumatic past as a manipulative tool in her cheating game. Other than a murderer, I cannot for the life of me think of a worse person than your wife right now.
And you’re still giving her credit for being a mother when she had 2/33 overnights with the children this past month?
Being a mother is often thankless and yes, we mothers often feel invisible… but then there are the times we are thanked and showered with love. It’s just part of the job. She is utterly selfish.


----------



## snerg

johndoe12299 said:


> Went pay the lawyer to get the paperwork started. Now it's up to the ww and I to agree on things amicably and hopefully avoid litigation. Child support is a formula so that is straight forward, but i don't think spousal support works that way. Hopefully we can agree on something and move forward.
> 
> To top it off, i tested positive for covid today and feel like absolute ****. And i have the kids so they have to stay with me until quarantine is over...while trying to work remotely. *When it rains it pours i suppose*.


Where's your 180?
instead of the thought process you currently have, why not think "At least I'm not in the hospital hooked up to a ventilator"
Positive thoughts and negative thought do cause reality to shift.
If you start to force yourself to have positive thoughts, you will have positive results (this does not undo negative things but can lessen the damage/affect they can have on you).



johndoe12299 said:


> Find myself crying a lot the last few days. I am still just having trouble coping with how fast things changed. I just wonder *how long she has been checked out*.


Long time. That's a reality you need to get a grip on and start getting angry about. Again, 180. You need to be angry that she checked out without talking to you.
You need to be angry that she cheated.
You need to be angry she left.
Not to the point of starting fights, but to the point of not putting up with her bull schmidt.




johndoe12299 said:


> We had a decent few months leading up to D day. I just can't understand how it can go from that to just wanting a divorce so quickly.


It didn't - that's the issue. You are late to this game.



johndoe12299 said:


> That's what hurts the most. Just wanting to feel wanted, and your best friend just totally doesn't see you in that light anymore. I know i should hate her. And I do to some degree, *but still have that soft spot in my heart for her*. It's almost like i just hate not being in control. It's like I WANT her to want me back so i can be the one to say no. Is that normal? Like, i know it would never be the same physically but in a way i want her back for the family unit. Lots of thoughts running through my head. I just want to fast forward 5 months from now.


You do not have a soft spot for her in your heart.
You have a soft spot for the image you built of her in your heart.
You have to get used to the idea the woman you loved and married *DOES NOT NOR HAS SHE EVER EXISTED*
You are absolutely in control. You are frozen by uncertainty. DO the 180 - become certain in your mind set, your thought process, your actions. Take back the control you allow her to have.



johndoe12299 said:


> Reading Rational Male and NMMNG concurrently. I'm struggling with the nihilistic view on relationships...but will continue reading.


Try removing emotions from the relationship views.
Try to understand them purely as a statistical or logical item. That will give you a bit of a paradigm shift.
Everything in those books isn't for everyone at all times. But they do offer some unemotional views for you to ponder and figure out how to apply to your life if you so choose to.


----------



## johndoe12299

Problem is an "at fault" divorce in our case would be an adultery divorce. But in order to do that both her and the guy would have to come testify and she has stated she won't do that.

To the rest of your post, 100%. I want to tell her those things so badly. But, I'm just sticking to the 180. I would love to just rip into her and tell her all those things you said. Lied to me, betrayed my trust, abandoned her kids so she could **** off with some guy. I feel that i let her off too easily when we had the "talk" about the other guy a couple weeks ago. All she could muster was "i don't know what else to say, you're right". 

All those things she did but now all of a sudden she wants the kids half the time because she can get child support so now she can enjoy the kids since she "doesn't have to stress about how to support them".


----------



## johndoe12299

snerg said:


> Where's your 180?
> instead of the thought process you currently have, why not think "At least I'm not in the hospital hooked up to a ventilator"
> Positive thoughts and negative thought do cause reality to shift.
> If you start to force yourself to have positive thoughts, you will have positive results (this does not undo negative things but can lessen the damage/affect they can have on you).
> 
> 100%. That comment was more tongue in cheek. I just have a fever/fatigue and nagging cough. That's how I've been coping with all this; telling myself people have lives wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy worse off than I do right now.
> 
> 
> Long time. That's a reality you need to get a grip on and start getting angry about. Again, 180. You need to be angry that she checked out without talking to you.
> You need to be angry that she cheated.
> You need to be angry she left.
> Not to the point of starting fights, but to the point of not putting up with her bull schmidt.
> 
> oh i'm angry. I'm just mad that the 180 doesn't allow me to go off on her!
> 
> 
> 
> It didn't - that's the issue. You are late to this game.
> 
> You are right. Hard to come to terms with it.
> 
> 
> You do not have a soft spot for her in your heart.
> You have a soft spot for the image you built of her in your heart.
> You have to get used to the idea the woman you loved and married *DOES NOT NOR HAS SHE EVER EXISTED*
> You are absolutely in control. You are frozen by uncertainty. DO the 180 - become certain in your mind set, your thought process, your actions. Take back the control you allow her to have.
> 
> 
> Try removing emotions from the relationship views.
> Try to understand them purely as a statistical or logical item. That will give you a bit of a paradigm shift.
> Everything in those books isn't for everyone at all times. But they do offer some unemotional views for you to ponder and figure out how to apply to your life if you so choose to.


thank you sir.


----------



## snerg

johndoe12299 said:


> All those things she did but now all of a sudden she wants the kids half the time because she can get child support so now she can enjoy the kids since she "doesn't have to stress about how to support them".


DOCUMENT
DOCUMENT
DOCUMENT

Talk to your lawyer. Try to find out what to do here.

DOCUMENT everything.
Every time you talk.
Everything she does with the kids.
Document everything.

You're going to get burned because you keep thinking this person is your friend.
This is the mother of your children. That's it. 
Let me tell you who she is.
She's a cheater.
She's a thief.
She's a manipulator.
She's a liar.
She's an abuser.
She doesn't love you.
She doesn't care for you.
She will do everything she can to twist that knife that she stabbed into your back.
She will do everything in her power to cripple and keep you wounded.

So you best believe that you better be getting some legal advice like yesterday on this.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> She met with lawyer last week and suddenly she wants the kids, now that she gets CS and doesn't have to "stress how she will make money and can enjoy kids more". I agreed to the CS that lawyer ccame up with based on the formula.
> 
> I pissed her off more when i tried going down on it because she forgot to tell her lawyer some numbers. Now that set off something in her and she will likely pursue spousal support as well, which she originally said she didn't want. It's kind of what i've been saying; i can't really say or do anything to rock the boat b/c she has all the leverage. I basically just need to keep my mouth shut and get her to sign some favorable papers asap. My lawyer is drawing up the papers tomorrow; hopefully she's in a good mood when we get to the signing table and I don't get hit too hard for spousal support.
> 
> 
> I also failed hard at the 180 the other night. When we had the talk about CS and SS, i just prodded her more for an explanation/closure. Stupid, i know. I had a moment of weakness. What was most surprising is that it just sounds like she has a ton of resentment towards me. It's honestly a shock. Things I never knew she had problems with came out.
> 
> "You got to better your career, pursue MBA etc while I stayed home with the kids" < in which i told her not only was that to better myself, but i was bettering myself to put the FAMILY in a better situation
> 
> "I could never tell you anything without it leading to an argument so i just kept my mouth shut" < That one hurts, all it does is make me get in my head and ask myself am i really like that?
> 
> "it was always going to be your way or no way" "tired of asking for things"
> 
> Seems like a lot of her resentment stems from financial issues and how i managed the money...but like i told her, if it was all about myself i would have never touched her student loan debt and she'd be leaving this marriage with a 35k cloud over her head. Now she is walking away scot free.
> 
> I just need to stop. I know i know. You all keep telling me. I just keep asking myself "this is all ending because of her issues with the way i handled the money? She couldn't talk to me about it?"
> 
> It's just that I often comprimised with her on things. I was never the "my way or the highway guy". I just always felt like her happiness was a moving target. _shrugs_
> 
> I just want this to be over.


You know her excuses are all BS.

This is what you’re getting

*Blame-shifting* is when a person does something wrong or inappropriate, and then dumps the blame on someone else to avoid taking responsibility for their own behavior.


----------



## Marc878

Sounds like you still need to wake up. I know it’s a shock but…..


----------



## johndoe12299

I'm getting there. I'm just being honest with what my feelings are. It's kinda therapeutic for me to type it out, and the feedback i get helps a ton too. Papers are signed and being filed tomorrow.


----------



## johndoe12299

snerg said:


> DOCUMENT
> DOCUMENT
> DOCUMENT
> 
> Talk to your lawyer. Try to find out what to do here.
> 
> DOCUMENT everything.
> Every time you talk.
> Everything she does with the kids.
> Document everything.
> 
> You're going to get burned because you keep thinking this person is your friend.
> This is the mother of your children. That's it.
> Let me tell you who she is.
> She's a cheater.
> She's a thief.
> She's a manipulator.
> She's a liar.
> She's an abuser.
> She doesn't love you.
> She doesn't care for you.
> She will do everything she can to twist that knife that she stabbed into your back.
> She will do everything in her power to cripple and keep you wounded.
> 
> So you best believe that you better be getting some legal advice like yesterday on this.


Louisiana divorce law is ****ed. I've met with 2 lawyers and I dont have much leg to stand on. The "i don't want anything" was early on before i was recording convos. I doubt that verbal would have mattered anyway. Definitely documenting everything now. Unless i have video of them ****ing i can't even get an adultery divorce unless they would both testify; even though i have her on tape admitting to "something" going on for the last 4 weeks, and her having feelings for him.

She's entitled to CS no matter what, so we agreed upon what is in the state tables, with 600/mo spousal support. Custody split 50/50.

Going sign the docs with lawyer later this week


----------



## johndoe12299

This NMMNG is eye opening. I identify with so much in it, really eye opening as to why I am the way i am. If anything, it is making me feel even more responsible for the end of our marriage... :/

It just sucks it takes this to happen to get exposed to these reading materials. If i had read this 2, 3, 5 years ago I don't think we would be in this predicament.


----------



## Imnobodynew

johndoe12299 said:


> This NMMNG is eye opening. I identify with so much in it, really eye opening as to why I am the way i am. If anything, it is making me feel even more responsible for the end of our marriage... :/
> 
> It just sucks it takes this to happen to get exposed to these reading materials. If i had read this 2, 3, 5 years ago I don't think we would be in this predicament.


Can I say something about stats? They are in the eye of the beholder.

My parents split. Left me and my sibling 9 years old in the streets. While the bloods and the crips were going at it. We both have clean records. We both own very lucrative business. The property I own now is close to 1.7.

So.....stats? If you know anything about them.. they are easily manipulated by the the statician to say what they want. People are individuals not labels. Stats are only helpful to give broad general scopes of understanding. The more narrow their scope the more they lie lol. Your kids need you to be the best father you can . They are not numbers they are people. Play the long ball. Get them into counseling. Do the best you can given the situation. Please believe in doing right by them. Be a good father. Include them in good bonding time and be supportive. Do not dump your issues with your stbxw wife on them. Do not talk about your wife's crap. If they ask you why it happened and they are of age... just give them a parable they could understand.... when they are adults and ask, tell them the truth. Your life will turn ok. There life will turn out ok... and when they fall they will turn to you. Btw the more ok you are, the better thier launching pad in life becomes. Becuase in in lifes hardship you teach them how to live, not succumb to pettiness 

I'm a Christian so. I believe in God. I have faith that when troubles ends up in my life there is a purpose. Doesn't feel good when it's going on but there is a purpose. One of those reasons is for the good of those around me. I become an example of someone who can carry on in any adversity becuase knowing God is with me. My family is included in Gods blessing on my life.

About Her:
Peoples actions have costs. They are not always apparent, you may never see the fruit, but they always have a cost. A serial cheater becomes very shallow and attracts shallow people. A drunkard has to fight their addiction and often isolates themselves from the very people that love them. But you want her to grow up (for the sake of your kids), and while she may not have a place in your life.... let it go and hope she comes to some kind of place where she can a human being not an impulsive mess driven by outside desires.

From your descriptive paragraphs, she's not a happy person. Always looking for her next fix. Never really dealing with the core problems. While you may have enabled that in some ways shes an adult let her put her big girl skirt on and deal with life without you. Live and be happy! You are not tied to her unhappiness. She's just not your problem.

*Isnt that gift in itself? *

Sorry for the typos and bad grammar and a.d.d. like style lol I'm on my phone, buzzing on coffe, late at night lol

I hope this was beneficial is some small way. These come from my own life experiences.


----------



## Evinrude58

Get the best deal you can. Having to wait that year in Louisiana before you can cut out the cancer in your life is awful.
You’ll get over this.

She is not your friend. She’s your worst enemy . Because:
She doesn’t want to be a responsible person and support herself. She wants you to do that. She doesn’t care that she’s going to make your life harder, because she doesn’t CARE about YOU anymore. So remember that.
Do not let the attorney put in that agreement that you will split extracurricular activity costs and this and that. Many attorneys will print out some crap form and fill in your names and charge the hell out of you. Be very careful you look at every word of the agreement and maybe even run it by us before you sign. Every word matters. When you get the kids, which holidays..... get the right of first refusal in writing. If she pawns them off on someone to take a trip with her bf, you get them . Not her mom or her trashy friend or whoever. The divorce agreement is super important. Judges don’t like to make changes in custody stuff. 

she will use the kids to leverage money from you. Get that divorce agreement to specify exactly what you are responsible for—- she will hold you responsible for every dime and do things just to hurt you financially.
Make sure elective medical procedures that you don’t agree to— you’re not responsible for.

there’s a lot to this. She will use every option she can to extract money from you.
Expect this and plan ahead. This is where a good attorney is worth the money over a form filler.


----------



## manowar

johndoe12299 said:


> It just sucks it takes this to happen to get exposed to these reading materials. If i had read this 2, 3, 5 years ago I don't think we would be in this predicament.


Not your fault really. You were socially conditioned from a very young age like the rest of mankind in the modern world. You also viewed the world from a blue pill lens. You're in the process of cutting the cord. 
I guarantee you when you make the transformation you will have better relationships and more confidence. Perhaps 2, 5 years ago, it would have been difficult to break your preconceived beliefs. 

You have to work on yourself going forward. read all the books I recommended. It's not nihilistic but a crash course on female psychology and male behavior. That's what it's really about. 

You feel really bad because you got kicked in the balls. She had a long head start on you.


----------



## Kaliber

johndoe12299 said:


> Problem is an "at fault" divorce in our case would be an adultery divorce. But in order to do that both her and the guy would have to come testify and she has stated she won't do that.


@johndoe12299 I have a question..
Is it possible to talk to a really good PI in your area, someone who has a good feedback and reviews to find out what type of evidence you need to file under "at fault" divorce? 
The PI usually knows what proof you need for such divorce.
If they can collect these evidence for you, I believe it would be your best option to eliminate the alimony aspect of the divorce!
The PI will cost you but it's well worth it.
Many good PIs have a free consultation session/phone calls!

It's time for you to stand up and be proactive, you need to start to take control and do what's best for you!

You will not lose anything by trying and asking!


----------



## johndoe12299

Kaliber said:


> @johndoe12299 I have a question..
> Is it possible to talk to a really good PI in your area, someone who has a good feedback and reviews to find out what type of evidence you need to file under "at fault" divorce?
> The PI usually knows what proof you need for such divorce.
> If they can collect these evidence for you, I believe it would be your best option to eliminate the alimony aspect of the divorce!
> The PI will cost you but it's well worth it.
> Many good PIs have a free consultation session/phone calls!
> 
> It's time for you to stand up and be proactive, you need to start to take control and do what's best for you!
> 
> You will not lose anything by trying and asking!


Yep! I did this a few weeks back. Had a lengthy convo with a good PI and he said you basically need visual evidence of them having sex. Even having video of them going into a hotel/business and coming out hours later is not sufficient. It's crazy.

That, or they would both have to testify in court that the affair happened, which she said she wouldn't do.


----------



## johndoe12299

I'm actually starting to wonder if there are drugs involved. She never did drugs during our marriage, outside of MJ. But, she literally emailed me 3x last night between the 3:38AM and 5:30AM. Then she was up at 8:00 b/c she texted me.

That isn't normal behavior. It's very possible she was on the phone with the guy b/c that's what the phone records showed(long late night conversations); but i'm starting to wonder if there is something else at play.


----------



## manowar

johndoe12299 said:


> or they would both have to testify in court that the affair happened, which she said she wouldn't do.


You wanna bet?

proving the affair is easier than you think. This is what an attorney has to do. I understand this process very well. Notice wife to take her deposition and Subpoena the OM. This will scare them. Not dealing with sophisticated people here. They will attempt to get their stories straight. Take the deposition of both of them separately. A decent attorney will have a field day with their contradictions. Put together evidence of a relationship. That may entail calling in outside witnesses from where they work. The guy is going to get sick of the legal procedures and probably just admit to it. The OM has to understand that he's not going to be left in peace. Your attorney is going to remain on his ass until he admits it. It's also going to cost this clown money and time. without legal representation, he will hurt himself. Once he admits it, what's she going to say? OM is lying? Go to trial and really get on them hard during cross-examination. She will end up admitting to the affair as the only logical reason for leaving you. 

You make the OM's life inconvenienced. Go 180 on the wife and stop listening to her bullsht. You can prove an affair. Instead, you continue to listen to her. Keep reading NO More Mr. Nice Guy!!!!

Dude, you have to understand if they lie at the deposition or trial that they are committing perjury. It's a felony. It's serious.
A decent attorney knows how to get this info out of them. He doesn't have to be Clarence Darrow. Hire a man for this that does Divorce work.


----------



## johndoe12299

Ha.I really have done 180 outside of talking about kids/settlement.

Here's the thing, from a financial perspective I have to decide whether the cost of a trial/PI etc is worth it.

As it stands now i have to pay child support 1000/mo, regardless of proven infidelity. She's asking for is 600/month in spousal support. So, if we can agree to spousal support until divorce is final, that puts me about 7200 in the hole.

OR, I could spend a couple thousand on PI and not get guaranteed results, then hire a lawyer to do what you said above. I'm thinking the costs of those lawyer/court fees could easily surpass the 7200. I don't see it being less than that for legal representation in that regard. Am i off there?

All that to prove adultery and get me off from paying alimony. It's either a wash or i'd come out slightly to moderately ahead just paying the 600/mo and leaving it be. Also, time lost to having to appear in court and all that jazz.

Am I off in that thinking?


----------



## Evinrude58

I don’t think there’s a chance in hell of getting her for adultery. The courts just don’t care.
I’ve talked to a LOUISIANA attorney that’s is considered a legal badass on this. As OP stated, he’d basically have to show pictures of them having sex.
If he could do it, he’s be better off no doubt. 

She’s going to ask for more and more for child support. I’d try for full custody if there was a chance if that. Child support is for a loooooong time. Alimony in Louisiana is for a few years I think. The mom isn’t a mom.


----------



## manowar

Good idea on the child support. I wouldn't cave so easily on the alimony. Here's why.

What about* both parties admitting* to it as I outlined. If they admit, as good as a video in my book. Will they both lie under oath after they've been warned of the seriousness and consequences of perjury. This tacit works. It creates doubt in the witness. Especially witnesses like these two. Better to be safe than sorry they think.. Plus the OM who has little skin in the outcome will get tired of being dragged into this legal case that doesn't concern him. The OM should be attacked until he gives up the wife and then the pressure is placed on the wife. 

the phone records will indicate they were in communication. what about the texts sent back and forth. All strong evidence of an affair. There may even be hotel receipts. All of it can be subpoenaed.

The courts don't care. It's a fault state, right? It's the law. 

Also, he can create risk rather than just agree to pay her. Tell the wife he's not willing to pay 600 per/mo. But rather 300. She says no. He says fine. I'll prove you are an adulteress and pay you nothing. And pursue the legal strategy I suggested. 

It's $7200 per year alimony. For how many years. 1 yr, 5 years. 10 years.? Why give in if she's an adultress in a fault state where he can prove adultry. If both parties admit it, the court has to take it into consideration. If the court fails to consider it, that's grounds for an appeal. I'm not familiar with LA law and have no intention of familiarizing myself with it.

Personally, I would never pay full freight in this situation. OP has a good defense imo.

.


----------



## Smilieman

snerg said:


> Let me tell you who she is.
> She's a cheater.
> She's a thief.
> She's a manipulator.
> She's a liar.
> She's an abuser.
> She doesn't love you.
> She doesn't care for you.
> She will do everything she can to twist that knife that she stabbed into your back.
> She will do everything in her power to cripple and keep you wounded.


This sums up my current experiences exactly, of what I have come to realise about my stbxw - My only question to the last 2 points is "Why?". According to some it's not personal towards the LBS and the WW is just doing what best for her and what makes her happy. But personally, I don't get that feeling, more of a feeling that she hates my guts and absolutely wants to hurt me as much as possible.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

johndoe12299 said:


> Ha.I really have done 180 outside of talking about kids/settlement.
> 
> Here's the thing, from a financial perspective I have to decide whether the cost of a trial/PI etc is worth it.
> 
> As it stands now i have to pay child support 1000/mo, regardless of proven infidelity. She's asking for is 600/month in spousal support. So, if we can agree to spousal support until divorce is final, that puts me about 7200 in the hole.
> 
> OR, I could spend a couple thousand on PI and not get guaranteed results, then hire a lawyer to do what you said above. I'm thinking the costs of those lawyer/court fees could easily surpass the 7200. I don't see it being less than that for legal representation in that regard. Am i off there?
> 
> All that to prove adultery and get me off from paying alimony. It's either a wash or i'd come out slightly to moderately ahead just paying the 600/mo and leaving it be. Also, time lost to having to appear in court and all that jazz.
> 
> Am I off in that thinking?


No, I don't think you're off at all. Sometimes you have to hold your nose and think of the bigger picture. It might feel really good to nail her for adultery, and people with integrity really WANT the truth known because we have a need to see injustice and dishonour punished. BUT, if the cost (in money, stress and time) of getting that judgement is more than the cost of the more amicable version of divorce, is it worth it? Personally, I'd rather the money went to my ex than to a PI and lawyers. At least the ex might use it on the kids, and it might make her more cooperative later.


----------



## johndoe12299

Thanks Hopeful cynic.

So, i've been stuck home with covid all week, with the kids. We were going to wait until my symptoms died down before the wife took the kids.

She talked to my daugher on the phone last night and said she was "praying for dad", she called me this morning basically begging to let her bring some medicine/food/drinks to me and i told her I was good.

It's like she doesn't even begin to grasp the level of pain she has caused me. Of course i haven't shown her that, but you think i want to see you any more than i have to? You haven't given one single **** about my feelings/well being the last 2 months and now you're concerned? 

Then her mom and sister texted me asking how i was doing. They can all **** the right off


----------



## Evinrude58

Smilieman said:


> This sums up my current experiences exactly, of what I have come to realise about my stbxw - My only question to the last 2 points is "Why?". According to some it's not personal towards the BS and the WW is just doing what best for her and what makes her happy. But personally, I don't get that feeling, more of a feeling that she hates my guts and absolutely wants to hurt me as much as possible.


She has to convince herself that you’re a despicable person that needs to be punished. Otherwise, her cheating makes her s pretty terrible person, doesn’t it?? This is classic thinking of a cheating spouse. Yes, it’s personal. A cheater is far too selfish and self centered to think of themselves poorly. Their minds MUST rationalize the cheating, or they feel bad. Nobody likes feeling bad. It’s easier to blameshift and feel anger.


----------



## snerg

Smilieman said:


> This sums up my current experiences exactly, of what I have come to realise about my stbxw - *My only question to the last 2 points is "Why?"*. According to some it's not personal towards the LBS and the WW is just doing what best for her and what makes her happy. But personally, I don't get that feeling, more of a feeling that she hates my guts and absolutely wants to hurt me as much as possible.


The answer I will give is very simplistic and rage inducing.

Why?

Because.

Nothing more, nothing less.

If you look for anything else, you start running into excuses.

I cheated.
Why?
Because...

I hurt you.
Why?
Because...

I ruined the relationship.
Why?
Because...

Hurting you is because...


----------



## Smilieman

snerg said:


> The answer I will give is very simplistic and rage inducing.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because.


I suppose that sums it up though. If the WW is following feelings then I suppose it is just that. So the "Why" never gets answered to any degree and therefore one has to just be ok with not knowing. Frustrating to say the least.


----------



## johndoe12299

Been pretty quiet. I think there's been the first ***** in her armor. The timing was really strange. I was having a rough night Monday. Just alone in the house as she has the kids this week. I was just sittingin my daughter's bed thinking about the way things were, being sad, etc...

Well, around 10pm not long after that my wife texts a screenshot of an argument we had about 2 weeks before d-day. She says "do you remember that convo? can you believe it's been 2 months already?"

Like i said, she must've had a 6th sense because i was most vulnerable at that time and obliged her in the conversation and responded, instead of ignoring her. I told her i did and i had gone back to it several times, as i feel that was the "tipping point"

Then she says "just wanted to say sorry for everything"

"I'm sorry for betraying you and hurting you. And i hate watching ***** suffer like this. I know she's confused and upset. My heart is broken for her"

I asked why she was looking at that conversation : "I don't know. Just trying to find the moment that was my tipping point i guess". I basically just tell her yeah, and we never even talked about it so i'm sure resentment built up. She agreed. Then she said "just still in disbelief about everything. Like i'm in a bad dream".

I left it alone and didn't respond after that. We haven't talked about it sense, just kids talk this week.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> This NMMNG is eye opening. I identify with so much in it, really eye opening as to why I am the way i am. If anything, it is making me feel even more responsible for the end of our marriage... :/
> 
> It just sucks it takes this to happen to get exposed to these reading materials. If i had read this 2, 3, 5 years ago I don't think we would be in this predicament.


Reading it’s great but if you don’t apply it nothing changes.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Been pretty quiet. I think there's been the first *** in her armor. The timing was really strange. I was having a rough night Monday. Just alone in the house as she has the kids this week. I was just sittingin my daughter's bed thinking about the way things were, being sad, etc...
> 
> Well, around 10pm not long after that my wife texts a screenshot of an argument we had about 2 weeks before d-day. She says "do you remember that convo? can you believe it's been 2 months already?"
> 
> Like i said, she must've had a 6th sense because i was most vulnerable at that time and obliged her in the conversation and responded, instead of ignoring her. I told her i did and i had gone back to it several times, as i feel that was the "tipping point"
> 
> Then she says "just wanted to say sorry for everything"
> 
> "I'm sorry for betraying you and hurting you. And i hate watching ***** suffer like this. I know she's confused and upset. My heart is broken for her"
> 
> I asked why she was looking at that conversation : "I don't know. Just trying to find the moment that was my tipping point i guess". I basically just tell her yeah, and we never even talked about it so i'm sure resentment built up. She agreed. Then she said "just still in disbelief about everything. Like i'm in a bad dream".
> 
> I left it alone and didn't respond after that. We haven't talked about it sense, just kids talk this week.


Words mean nothing. 180, 180,180. Many fall into the trap of hopium.

Bud the tipping point was when she started having sex with her shiny new boyfriend. You don’t learn to ignore you will keep yourself in this. You can only be a chump if you allow it.


----------



## jlg07

johndoe12299 said:


> I told her i did and i had gone back to it several times, as i feel that was the "tipping point"


From what I've read in your thread, TWO WEEKS before D-Day was NOT the problem. Her having an affair with her co-worker (even just emotional affair) was the problem. Don't beat yourself up for this -- this is on HER.


----------



## johndoe12299

for sure. i guess she's trying to figure out what caused her to finally say "**** it" and pursue something like that. WHo knows, doesn't matter


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Been pretty quiet. I think there's been the first *** in her armor. The timing was really strange. I was having a rough night Monday. Just alone in the house as she has the kids this week. I was just sittingin my daughter's bed thinking about the way things were, being sad, etc...
> 
> Well, around 10pm not long after that my wife texts a screenshot of an argument we had about 2 weeks before d-day. She says "do you remember that convo? can you believe it's been 2 months already?"
> 
> Like i said, she must've had a 6th sense because i was most vulnerable at that time and obliged her in the conversation and responded, instead of ignoring her. I told her i did and i had gone back to it several times, as i feel that was the "tipping point"
> 
> Then she says "just wanted to say sorry for everything"
> 
> "I'm sorry for betraying you and hurting you. And i hate watching ***** suffer like this. I know she's confused and upset. My heart is broken for her"
> 
> I asked why she was looking at that conversation : "I don't know. Just trying to find the moment that was my tipping point i guess". I basically just tell her yeah, and we never even talked about it so i'm sure resentment built up. She agreed. Then she said "just still in disbelief about everything. Like i'm in a bad dream".
> 
> I left it alone and didn't respond after that. We haven't talked about it sense, just kids talk this week.


Upon further thought. She texted to see if her plan B was still available. Just in case she needs a soft spot to land if things don’t work out with her new lover. 

By answering her you have told her you’d be open to taking her back. Whether you meant to or not.

Think long term. If she’s done this once the capability is there to do it again. Upfront most just want them back without thinking about what they’d be getting back. She abandoned you, family, everything.

Your marriage is over. Knowing who and what she is would you marry her again? That’s what reconciliation is.

She’s a lying cheater. She’s banging her new boyfriend and abandoned everything for him until she thought about finances. You’d better to learn to love yourself more. 

You heart is broken for her and the deliberate choices and decisions she made to get where she’s at and put you in the position you’re in? You need to fully awaken to who she really is.


----------



## Marc878

When you break no contact you reset the clock back to zero. Every time!!!


----------



## johndoe12299

she didn't bring up getting back together though. Hasn't once mentioned that. I think she was just saying that stuff to feel me out and bait me in to saying something. I haven't brought it up.


----------



## johndoe12299

Marc878 said:


> When you break no contact you reset the clock back to zero. Every time!!!


i know! and it was going so well.


----------



## johndoe12299

side note...papers are officially filed today. she had to go sign the paperwork to confirm.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> she didn't bring up getting back together though. Hasn't once mentioned that. I think she was just saying that stuff to feel me out and bait me in to saying something. I haven't brought it up.


She texted you for a reason. Probably just to make sure you’re available if she wants it. It’s for her. You don’t matter.


----------



## Evinrude58

Marc878 said:


> Upon further thought. She texted to see if her plan B was still available. Just in case she needs a soft spot to land if things don’t work out with her new lover.
> 
> By answering her you have told her you’d be open to taking her back. Whether you meant to or not.
> 
> Think long term. If she’s done this once the capability is there to do it again. Upfront most just want them back without thinking about what they’d be getting back. She abandoned you, family, everything.
> 
> Your marriage is over. Knowing who and what she is would you marry her again? That’s what reconciliation is.
> 
> She’s a lying cheater. She’s banging her new boyfriend and abandoned everything for him until she thought about finances. You’d better to learn to love yourself more.
> 
> You heart is broken for her and the deliberate choices and decisions she made to get where she’s at and put you in the position you’re in? You need to fully awaken to who she really is.


Better read this twice. Exactly right. This is why she called.


----------



## Marc878

She’ll be pulling the let’s be “friends” next. This will be for her. Not you. It helps alleviate guilt. She can say what I did wasn’t so bad cause we’re friends.

Definition of friend - loyal, honest and trustworthy.

You want a life going forward? No contact is your best path. Kids will adjust. I know three who do this religiously and they all say it’s the best thing they’ve done. You’ll find no one wants an X in the mix.


----------



## Marc878

Love yourself enough to never accept the unacceptable. Never be plan B or second place.

You have a ways to go yet. It isn’t easy but you can get there. You deserve better.


----------



## Zedd

Marc878 said:


> You’ll find no one wants an X in the mix.


not always true. My ex-wife is one of my best friends and godmother to my daughter. I wouldn't be re-married without her and her support. She was fully responsible for helping my now wife navigate the mess that is me.


----------



## Marc878

Zedd said:


> not always true. My ex-wife is one of my best friends and godmother to my daughter. I wouldn't be re-married without her and her support. She was fully responsible for helping my now wife navigate the mess that is me.


Sorry man but that doesn’t say much for your capabilities.


----------



## johndoe12299

Marc878 said:


> She’ll be pulling the let’s be “friends” next. This will be for her. Not you. It helps alleviate guilt. She can say what I did wasn’t so bad cause we’re friends.
> 
> Definition of friend - loyal, honest and trustworthy.
> 
> You want a life going forward? No contact is your best path. Kids will adjust. I know three who do this religiously and they all say it’s the best thing they’ve done. You’ll find no one wants an X in the mix.


Yeah, she already tried that a few weeks back. "Can we do things with the kids together?" I said, "Sure, i'm sure i'll see you at school functions." Then she was like "No, intentional like dinner, etc" and i just told her no.


----------



## Evinrude58

Let me cuckold you and treat you like a dumb chump—- oh let’s have dinner????

You should’ve given her the middle finger


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Yeah, she already tried that a few weeks back. "Can we do things with the kids together?" I said, "Sure, i'm sure i'll see you at school functions." Then she was like "No, intentional like dinner, etc" and i just told her no.


Very typical. They blow up the family and everything but want you to still be there for them. I’m sure you’ll hear “do it for the children”. Funny thing is she wasn’t thinking about the children at all until she wants something from you.

Be smart and keep everything separate. Kids adjust. Be the one sane parent. At school events set separately. Your family going forward is you and your kids.


----------



## Zedd

Marc878 said:


> Sorry man but that doesn’t say much for your capabilities.


that's fine. the way I presented that is kind of wonky and it's a weird scenario and a long story (aren't they all?), but for a little clarity, I legitimately had reasons to not have another serious relationship and my ex-wife convincing me to give my current wife a chance. There wasn't any drama about our divorce really, so for sure that makes the situation different.


----------



## Marc878

Zedd said:


> that's fine. the way I presented that is kind of wonky and it's a weird scenario and a long story (aren't they all?), but for a little clarity, I legitimately had reasons to not have another serious relationship and my ex-wife convincing me to give my current wife a chance. There wasn't any drama about our divorce really, so for sure that makes the situation different.


There is nothing worse or more destructive than infidelity. It’s good you did not experience that.


----------



## Nailhead

johndoe12299 said:


> Probably a topic for a different thread...but about the single mom thing. I mean, i'm a single dad. How many women with no kids want to date a dude with that baggage?


----------



## Marc878

A friend of mine had just turned 40 with 2 girls in grade school and found out a steady guy is pretty marketable. Stay out of rebound situations. Do not introduce the kids until you are in a stable relationship.

My friend told me he had trouble finding the time to date everyone that was interested. Be picky if there are red flags or it’s not what you want dump fast and move on.

It took my friend over 2 years to find the right one. He traded way up!!!

You play this right you will be pleasantly surprised. NO CONTACT is key!!!!


----------



## Marc878

You should read up on rebounds. You have enough to deal with.

Study NMMNG thoroughly. It’s been around a long time and has a proven track record.


----------



## manowar

johndoe12299 said:


> "I'm sorry for betraying you and hurting you. And i hate watching ***** suffer like this. I know she's confused and upset. *My heart is broken for her"*



What? How touching. She put you in the Friendzone and it looks like you accepted.


----------



## johndoe12299

lol, i accepted what? She was just texting me that ****. She was just playing the sob story of feeling bad for the kids


----------



## Jamieboy

Just want to say, @johndoe12299 you have my respect and admiration, you are dealing with this like a titan, I would take you out for a beer to give you kudos any day of the week.

Yes you have mistepped a couple of times, but you're conducting yourself with dignity and being pragmatic in the face of the biggest betrayal you've ever faced. 

Your wife's reactions are all too familiar im afraid, it frightens me how similar the scripts are.

Just remember your wife has done a very bad thing and she will want absolution in her own mind, however she is fundamentally selfish. Hence the guilty I don't want anything, to, actually I do want everything I'm entitled to.

You sir, are going to move on from this and have a great life with your kids and a new lady if that's what you want. You have so much of the right stuff im in awe.

(Think ive got a bit of a man crush) but reading your responses you are streets ahead of where others have been at this point.

Keep on keeping on. You have this random Internet dudes respect


----------



## Kaliber

Jamieboy said:


> Just remember your wife has done a very bad thing *and she will want absolution in her own mind,* however she is fundamentally selfish. Hence the guilty I don't want anything, to, actually I do want everything I'm entitled to.



@johndoe12299 don't give her that!
You are doing great!
BTW Rich Cooper has another channel for short clips, very insightful: https://www.youtube.com/c/RichCooperClips/videos


----------



## Marc878

Learn to ignore !!!


----------



## ABHale

johndoe12299 said:


> Hey all, thank you for all the advice and words.
> 
> Just for full transparency, she hasn't completely abandoned the kids. She has picked them up from day care some days and spent the afternoons with them, until she leaves at night to go back to her place. She calls to tell them goodnight, etc. Although they have only slept with her 2 nights of the last 33. The rest were at my house with me. Just wanted to get that out there; it's not a situation of full blown abandonment, fwiw.
> 
> 
> So, I met with the lawyer today; and honestly i'm walking away more confused than ever. Louisiana is a backwards ass state, obviously; as we are the only state in the union that follows civil law, and not common law.
> 
> Basically, my lawyer's advice to me was to carry on as much as i can and wait out the 365 day period we have to be separated. The earlier i serve papers, the earlier i have to pay spousal support.
> 
> It was a ton of information and my head is spinning at this point. I told her my wife seems to want to have an "easy" splitup and not take anything...however even if we get that in writing, statute of limitations is 3 years and she can dissolve anything in writing and come back for her half.
> 
> This is ****ed.


This is full blown abandonment. 

I don’t know of any parent that would give up being with their kids like your cheating wife has. 

I have seen on TV and in our own community what a mom like your wife is capable of. They get rid of the kids so they can be happy.


----------



## Kamstel2

Hope you and the kids are doing well. 

Hang in there. 

I promise it will get better


----------



## johndoe12299

Thanks @Kamstel2 we are doing pretty well. It's my week with the kids; picked them up today. One day at a time.


----------



## johndoe12299

Jamieboy said:


> Just want to say, @johndoe12299 you have my respect and admiration, you are dealing with this like a titan, I would take you out for a beer to give you kudos any day of the week.
> 
> Yes you have mistepped a couple of times, but you're conducting yourself with dignity and being pragmatic in the face of the biggest betrayal you've ever faced.
> 
> Your wife's reactions are all too familiar im afraid, it frightens me how similar the scripts are.
> 
> Just remember your wife has done a very bad thing and she will want absolution in her own mind, however she is fundamentally selfish. Hence the guilty I don't want anything, to, actually I do want everything I'm entitled to.
> 
> You sir, are going to move on from this and have a great life with your kids and a new lady if that's what you want. You have so much of the right stuff im in awe.
> 
> (Think ive got a bit of a man crush) but reading your responses you are streets ahead of where others have been at this point.
> 
> Keep on keeping on. You have this random Internet dudes respect


Thanks for the words of encouragement Jamie. I feel like I've done some dumb things during this process but finding this forum and heeding the advice of everyone here has been extremely helpful. There is also a sense of accountability to myself and others in that I know if i screw up I will hear it from everyone here!

Every once in a while, like last night home alone, i have these urges to just call her and talk about things but I just gotta fight it off.


----------



## Evinrude58

It’s extremely difficult to go no contact with someone you love. Try to remember that every time you communicate without her, the clock for your healing and getting over her will be set back to zero. Fight the urge. I promise you this. If you contact her, you will not leave the conversation feeling better. It will put you in tears. Don’t ask me how I know. Resist the urge with all your might.


----------



## johndoe12299

Definitely. It isn't going to happen. I had a few beers that night and was just in my feels.

Reading other threads here about people going through almost the exact thing is scary, but beneficial. I'm reading their threads thinking "oh my why is he considering going back to her!" and then ask myself the same question.

Really, the only thing I want to ask her about is her text last week "feels like a nightmare can't wake up from"....

The more I think about that the more it pisses me off. I didn't respond to it at the time; that's basically the last "non kids" message we had. But, like....this is what SHE wanted. She is getting everything she wanted, but it's a nightmare for her? Lol, please, PLEASE switch shoes with me for one day and see what a nightmare is. I won't, but i really want to find out what she meant by that. I have no idea if she was just throwing bait out there but is too prideful to ask about R.


----------



## MattMatt

Marc878 said:


> Sorry man but that doesn’t say much for your capabilities.


Or that cheating wasn't involved?


----------



## Marc878

When you break no contact you reset back to day one. The longer you stay no contact the easier it gets.
Those that get strong and stay there come out best.


----------



## johndoe12299

When I go back and think about things at the beginning I just get so pissed at myself. I could have easily checked the phone records from the very get go and knew everything that was happening. When I first told my parents my Dad's first question was "is there another guy at work?"...I said that is the LAST thing I would expect it to be, lol. Man i was so, so foolish. My wife HATED cheaters; i just never expected that.

So i spent the first few weeks actually helping her find a place and booking the logistics of her retreat to "help herself". LOL. It's so pathetic. All the while she's having thousands of minutes of phone conversations with this guy. 

I hate that i was so gullible and was just used and manipulated so easily; but you never expect that from your wife and best friend, so i guess it's not something on your radar.


----------



## Marc878

You were just to trusting. That’s on her not you. 
Learn from it and apply.


----------



## Zedd

Aye, this isn't about me, but I want to clean this up before I become a product of a thread jack.

My original quote


Zedd said:


> not always true. My ex-wife is one of my best friends and godmother to my daughter. I wouldn't be re-married without her and her support. She was fully responsible for helping my now wife navigate the mess that is me.


To which this was replied:


Marc878 said:


> Sorry man but that doesn’t say much for your capabilities.


The end of my response was meant to be snarky in a self-deprecating way. I went full isolationist when I got divorced. My ex-wife is the one who convinced me to give my current wife a chance after I'd politely turned her down like 3 times because she was a friend of our family (my ex-wife's family, specifically)

Then this followed Marc's quote:


MattMatt said:


> Or that cheating wasn't involved?


Zero cheating. Absolutely zero cheating. I got divorced because my ex-wife met an old girlfriend of mine who still clearly had regrets about breaking up with me, and had a massive bout of retroactive jealousy and lost her damn mind. She went to try and meet up with an old boyfriend, not to cheat, but for validation to see if she still had any kind of pull like that on him. I found out about what was going on long before she met up with him and tried to get her to not do it without letting her know that I knew what was going on. She met up with him for coffee, and that was that. I walked in, had a 2 minute conversation, and it was over. We had an expiring pre-nup in 18 months that her father pushed us into to protect a future inheritance (he didn't like me, I was running my own buisiness and was in debt when we got married) and at the time of the meet-up with her ex-boyfriend, the pre-nup at become massively beneficial to me. Saved me many many many millions of dollars.

Because of all of this and the weird timing of the pre-nup, I chose to get divorced immediately.

there was no cheating. There could have been had I not stomped all over it or been aware of the secret plans to meet up, but no, I was lucky enough to have been all over it.

anyway, sorry. I just wanted to clean this up and add context. Because of how it all worked out, that we share a child together, and how my ex-wife was involved in setting me up with my current wife, she's been instrumental in my/our lives since the divorce.

You can still be friends with your ex, if you want to.


----------



## Openminded

My husband was always contemptuous of people who cheated but that didn’t stop him. Cheaters have different rules for themselves.


----------



## ABHale

I am starting to wonder if those that speak out so vehemently against cheating are only covering their tracks. Especially in a relationship where there isn’t any known cheating at the time. I have heard so many say here recently that WS was so against cheating I never would have believed they could cheat.


----------



## johndoe12299

ABHale said:


> I am starting to wonder if those that speak out so vehemently against cheating are only covering their tracks. Especially in a relationship where there isn’t any known cheating at the time. I have heard so many say here recently that WS was so against cheating I never would have believed they could cheat.


yeah, I'm sure it's some sort of unconscious defense mechanism.

Sorta how it's the not surprising when the most homophobic people turn out to be gay...


----------



## Zedd

Exactly. It's pretty common, for sure. A Freudian principle (not everything he did was crazy) coined projection many many years ago. The thought process and reasoning behind it has evolved over time, but yes, generally, it's a defense mechanism.


----------



## johndoe12299

Talked to my wife's sister's husband today. Him and the sister have zero clue on what's going on. All they know is we are separated! I said boy do i have a lot to tell you. 

I really want to type up na email and expose her to all family but I have to tread lightly so that these divorce negotiations smoothly. Blows my mind that she hasn't told her sister anything. It shouldn't, but they're a pretty close family.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

johndoe12299 said:


> Talked to my wife's sister's husband today. Him and the sister have zero clue on what's going on. All they know is we are separated! I said boy do i have a lot to tell you.
> 
> I really want to type up na email and expose her to all family but I have to tread lightly so that these divorce negotiations smoothly. Blows my mind that she hasn't told her sister anything. It shouldn't, but they're a pretty close family.


No surprise. You really think she wants anyone to know how bad of a wife, mother and person she is?


----------



## johndoe12299

Lol, was just doing some more thinking today. I really should get out of my head, but hopefully this helps someone that stumbles upon this thread.

I'm not even sure if I mentioned this in OP, but a couple weeks after the wife left me, i noticed she had her ring off and i brought it up. She gave me some BS about fixing things with her or whatever. It didn't make any sense...

point being, after that, I STILL was nice to her, supported and helped her plan her "Trauma recovery retreat" lol...I was a total NICE GUY. Lord, I was in such a shock induced fog I could not see anything clearly. The minute i saw the ring off i should have laid the ultimatum there, (this was before i knew about the AP)...at the least it should have alerted me to the possibility of their being an AP. Still, it didn't cross my mind. I really found out about AP by accident; although i suppose i would have gotten curious at some point.

No ring is just the ultimate slap in the face. It should have been very clear at that point. The hopium was strong in me


----------



## johndoe12299

it really induces a **** ton of rage in me. She lied, manipulated, abandoned her kids for a month, took advantage of my generosity, all because she wants her "FREEDOM"...how the **** is it free if you are going to come after me for child support and spousal support after ti's all said and done. You want freedom from me, but not my money, is that right?


GAHH **** off


----------



## Kaliber

johndoe12299 said:


> it really induces a *** ton of rage in me. She lied, manipulated, abandoned her kids for a month, took advantage of my generosity, all because she wants her "FREEDOM"...how the *** is it free if you are going to come after me for child support and spousal support after ti's all said and done. You want freedom from me, but not my money, is that right?
> 
> 
> GAHH **** off


One of the main reasons is why marriage in it's current state is such a high risk for men!


----------



## jlg07

johndoe12299 said:


> it really induces a *** ton of rage in me. She lied, manipulated, abandoned her kids for a month, took advantage of my generosity, all because she wants her "FREEDOM"...how the *** is it free if you are going to come after me for child support and spousal support after ti's all said and done. You want freedom from me, but not my money, is that right?
> 
> 
> GAHH **** off


You should make sure that the fact that she abandoned the children is DOCUMENTED -- start a journal for any time she has blown them off, doesn't see them, etc.. Could be very important when custody comes up in court....


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Talked to my wife's sister's husband today. Him and the sister have zero clue on what's going on. All they know is we are separated! I said boy do i have a lot to tell you.
> 
> I really want to type up na email and expose her to all family but I have to tread lightly so that these divorce negotiations smoothly. Blows my mind that she hasn't told her sister anything. It shouldn't, but they're a pretty close family.


Why? Cheaters lie.


----------



## johndoe12299

Want to know something else she did recently?

Part of her biggest resentments towards me during our marriage, was after taking a 5 year hiatus from work to stay home with kids, she started working in RE this January. Well, she wanted to donate 10%of her earnings. I did not agree with this and we comprimised at 5.

Anyway, apparently she never got over this and was one of her reasonings for leaving, whatever...

Well, last week i got a notice of receiving $400 in cash app from her. I texted her and asked what that was for. She says "oh i used a check(from our joint acct) to give 10% of my recent commission to xxxx charity".

So, 2 things...you are claiming you can barely make ends meet and need spousal support for that, yet you are giving away 10%of your money? That chaps my hide...should it?

Secondly, the charity is a charity that supports parents of babies/toddlers that have passed too early. A niece of mine passed away at 9 months old so my family is close with the charity. When that particular charity receives donations they inform the parents of the kid the donation is placed under...so my sister and her husband got a notice that my wife made a donation.

I mean, great that the charity is receiving a donation, but it just seems very calculated that she would choose that one...almost as to just try and get on my sister's good side but it's probably more for herself to make her feel better about herself after all this.


----------



## Beach123

johndoe12299 said:


> she didn't bring up getting back together though. Hasn't once mentioned that. I think she was just saying that stuff to feel me out and bait me in to saying something. I haven't brought it up.


Oh come on… you’re that naive? She texted you because she likely had a fight with her new BF and wanted to see if the door was still “ajar”! And by responding and getting sentimental you let her know you are still weak.

The ONLY answers you need to give are yes and no! That’s it! And the only thing you need to communicate about at this point is your kids! Stop looking weak to her!


----------



## johndoe12299

You are right. That was a mistake. She caught me at the worst possible time as i was having a bad night. Has been hard 180 ever since!


----------



## Beach123

johndoe12299 said:


> You are right. That was a mistake. She caught me at the worst possible time as i was having a bad night. Has been hard 180 ever since!


When she contacts in any way… do NOT respond! Nothing!

The only thing you need to respond to is if your kids have an emergency like going to the hospital. Even then, one word response is adequate!

She is baiting you to see how weak you are. Start looking like you’re gaining strength! 

It lets her know she doesn’t hold that power over you! Even if it’s not true - act as if it is true.

What she’s doing is sneaky and sly… she’s just trying to make sure you’re still her willing plan B. Don’t be plan B.

And since you did respond - why didn’t you call it what it is? There’s nothing wrong with saying (when you actually do respond) “oh ya… that was when you started cheating on me - which broke up our family!” Get real with what she’s done! Stop being nice to her!


----------



## Marc878

This is all you’re getting.

*Blame-shifting *is when a person does something wrong or inappropriate, and then dumps the blame on someone else to avoid taking responsibility for their own behavior.


----------



## Beach123

Why haven’t you exposed her to family?
At this point you plan to divorce her - why keep protecting her? Let people know exactly what she’s done!
At this point she thinks you are a chump - because she has been seeing someone and you haven’t told people what’s real.

It is time to tell what she’s been doing. If she gets mad do not respond to her.

After all you’re just being honest about the mess she’s created.


----------



## johndoe12299

Beach123 said:


> And since you did respond - why didn’t you call it what it is? There’s nothing wrong with saying (when you actually do respond) “oh ya… that was when you started cheating on me - which broke up our family!” Get real with what she’s done! Stop being nice to her!


Yeah, i thought about this after the fact. I was way too accomodating in my response. Like i said, weak moment. Learn and move on!


----------



## johndoe12299

Beach123 said:


> Why haven’t you exposed her to family?
> At this point you plan to divorce her - why keep protecting her? Let people know exactly what she’s done!
> At this point she thinks you are a chump - because she has been seeing someone and you haven’t told people what’s real.
> 
> It is time to tell what she’s been doing. If she gets mad do not respond to her.
> 
> After all you’re just being honest about the mess she’s created.


I have to tread lightly. In my state woman holds all the power in divorce negotiations. If she takes me to court i probably owe 1200/month just in spousal support and she has agreed on 600/mo. So, I need to wait until that is in writing before i ruffle the bed too much with exposuere. Her mom, one of her sisters and her nanny knows for sure.


----------



## manowar

johndoe12299 said:


> I was a total NICE GUY. Lord, I was in such a shock induced fog I could not see anything clearly. The minute i saw the ring off i should have laid the ultimatum there



that's true but you saw the world of relationships/women differently then. At least you are waking up. And that's a good thing. We are a lot older than you are. Paid our dues so to speak. How many guys do you know that are living in the same self-induced coma? Something like this will never happen to you again because your willing to smarten up about these matters and you'll begin to recognize the man idiots.


----------



## johndoe12299

so...new texts this morning at 6AM

"Seeing the kids only half of the time is killing me. I'm sure you feel the same way.I'm sorry for that."

Then a few minutes later:

"I'm sorry for betraying your trust. I'm sorry for everything."


----------



## Marc878

Ignore. She’s just sorry she got caught. Learn to ignore or suffer the consequences.
No good deed you do for her will go unpunished.


----------



## Marc878

Next up. Let’s be friends. I blew up you and the kids life. I didn’t give a damn about anyone but myself. Now you need to just eat that crap sandwich I served you. You need to be a good little doormat and be my friend. Do it for the kids even though I never thought about them.


----------



## johndoe12299

Ha. Yeah, i'm not really sure what sort of response she's looking for. Similar message to what she sent last week. Is she just wanting to hear "I forgive you" for her peace of mind?


----------



## Rob_1

It doesn't really matter what sort of response she's looking for. You ghost her, no replies, nada, zilch. That's your best bet.


----------



## Evinrude58

I’ve been through all this ****. Feeling for you. Marc878 is exactly correct. Ignoring and not taking the bait is hard, but the only way to go.
Every text you respond to will hurt you and slow your healing. She’s not sorry for a damn thing. She needs to feel you are still on the hook for security, and feel she is a special snowflake in your life, so she can try to feel good about herself. Nothing she does or says will be of benefit to you. She’s proven over and over she is all about HER.


----------



## GusPolinski

johndoe12299 said:


> so...new texts this morning at 6AM
> 
> "Seeing the kids only half of the time is killing me. I'm sure you feel the same way.I'm sorry for that."
> 
> Then a few minutes later:
> 
> "I'm sorry for betraying your trust. I'm sorry for everything."


She's likely putting out feelers for reconciliation. Too proud to come right out and ask for it, though.

Might've gotten dumped.


----------



## RebuildingMe

I’ve been in your exact shoes. After we filed, we were still living in the same house. She’d come to my room and say how nice I looked, how sorry she was, how distraught she was. She’d try to hug me and even once tried to dance with me. I never took the bait. Never. Never touched her for the 6 months I lived in that house. Found out later that her German bf had dumped her. Lol. They always look for a backup plan. Don’t be part of that plan.

After a few months, she was no longer any part of my thoughts. She was just my adversary sitting across from me at court. It’s like quitting a bad habit. Each day is harder, until you wake up one day to find that each day is now easier. It’s the greatest feeling in the world. Hang in there brother!


----------



## Marc878

It’s possible she’s been dumped or found out the shiny new object wasn’t so shiny.
She’s looking for you to step up and be the doormat she needs right now. She’s looking for a rugsweep not reconciliation. That would be way to much work for poor muffin.

*Warning* you break contact you reset the clock back to zero!!!!


----------



## johndoe12299

GusPolinski said:


> She's likely putting out feelers for reconciliation. Too proud to come right out and ask for it, though.
> 
> Might've gotten dumped.


I think this is it. 2 weeks in a row of unrsponsive messages about being sorry. And now with the "only seeing kids half the time"...kinda seems like she is hinting at getting back together but doesn't want to come out and say it.

It's getting better. In no way am I ready to begin dating, but i created an anon profile on match.com just to look at what's out there/pass the time when i get bored, and man does the landscape look good!


----------



## johndoe12299

RebuildingMe said:


> I’ve been in your exact shoes. After we filed, we were still living in the same house. She’d come to my room and say how nice I looked, how sorry she was, how distraught she was. She’d try to hug me and even once tried to dance with me. I never took the bait. Never. Never touched her for the 6 months I lived in that house. Found out later that her German bf had dumped her. Lol. They always look for a backup plan. Don’t be part of that plan.
> 
> After a few months, she was no longer any part of my thoughts. She was just my adversary sitting across from me at court. It’s like quitting a bad habit. Each day is harder, until you wake up one day to find that each day is now easier. It’s the greatest feeling in the world. Hang in there brother!


Ouch man. I could not imagine living in the same house while going through divorce! props to you. At what point did she eventually stop trying to hug/touch/talk to you? Does she stilld o it?


----------



## johndoe12299

Marc878 said:


> It’s possible she’s been dumped or found out the shiny new object wasn’t so shiny.
> She’s looking for you to step up and be the doormat she needs right now. She’s looking for a rugsweep not reconciliation. That would be way to much work for poor muffin.


Oh you mean the guy who hasn't supported himself in years and is a broke RE agent living with his gf isn't so shiny? Color me shocked!


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Oh you mean the guy who hasn't supported himself in years and is a broke RE agent living with his gf isn't so shiny? Color me shocked!


🤣🤣🤣 yep that’s the one! Poor muffin probably watched a Disney movie and is looking for a happy ending. At your expense of course 😎

You’d have to buy a lot of mustard in order to choke down that **** sandwich she’s wanting you to eat. The damn heartburn is incredibly bad afterwards though.


----------



## GusPolinski

Couple of tidbits from your initial post...



johndoe12299 said:


> Also at some point during the "talk" that night she says she's just tired of having to answer to anyone, doesn't want to feel obligated to have sex...


Translated from waywardese...

"Sex with a BH is perfunctory and obligatory; sex with an OM is awesome."



johndoe12299 said:


> She talks about how she's jealous of my cousin who has his kid 7 & 7(the week off).


Ironic given the most recent texts.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> I think this is it. 2 weeks in a row of unrsponsive messages about being sorry. And now with the "only seeing kids half the time"...kinda seems like she is hinting at getting back together but doesn't want to come out and say it.
> 
> It's getting better. In no way am I ready to begin dating, but i created an anon profile on match.com just to look at what's out there/pass the time when i get bored, and man does the landscape look good!


You are gonna be shocked at the opportunity. A friend of mine was.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> I think this is it. 2 weeks in a row of unrsponsive messages about being sorry. And now with the "only seeing kids half the time"...kinda seems like she is hinting at getting back together but doesn't want to come out and say it.
> 
> It's getting better. In no way am I ready to begin dating, but i created an anon profile on match.com just to look at what's out there/pass the time when i get bored, and man does the landscape look good!


I suspect muffin will give you some sloppy seconds if you’ll just give her the opportunity to play you again.

NOT WORTH YOUR TIME!!!!!


----------



## seadoug105

johndoe12299 said:


> Oh you mean the guy who hasn't supported himself in years and is a broke RE agent living with his gf isn't so shiny? Color me shocked!


She must be be extremely naive & immature to think this guy was a catch!

One might assume he was a player, but that can’t be right. Some of the same skills as player can lead to success as a RE agent. Albeit, most likely a slimier one but still…

And seriously…. How bad of a RE agent do you have to be to be broke???

Especially in this market!


----------



## johndoe12299

Lol, right? That's what hurt my self confidence even more. "She left me for _this_ guy?" Just another guy with a good game. Nothing to back it up, though.

Yeah, he just started in January(same time my wife started, hmmm). His gf told me he made no money and hasn't made any the last fea years and that she supported him, lol.


----------



## RebuildingMe

johndoe12299 said:


> Ouch man. I could not imagine living in the same house while going through divorce! props to you. At what point did she eventually stop trying to hug/touch/talk to you? Does she stilld o it?


IHS is hell on earth. I shut it down, turned her down and she became an ugly, bitter witch. In the end, she got what she deserved. She is now shacking up with her truck driver bf. They all crash and burn eventually. Yours will also.


----------



## johndoe12299

side note, really digging this MMSLP book so far. Just finished 1st two chapters. NNMNG was pretty good, definitely some things applied to me, but i don't feel like all did.


----------



## johndoe12299

I just feel like I'm completely powerless in this. I checked my HSA statement today, and she used the HSA account to pay for a $230 urgent care visit. I have no idea why it was $232 to get a COVID test but she doesn't give a **** as it's not her money. I asked my lawyer if i can just deduct it from my next CS payment and he said it's community property since it was contributed to while we were married.


----------



## Marc878

All you can do is get out ASAP. Sorry man but you’ll be fine long term.


----------



## johndoe12299

Welp.

Bit of a 180 timer reset yet again. This one was a bit out of my hands. Yesterday was my kid's first day of kindergarten. Well, due to COVID you can only drop your kid off, can't get out of vehicle. 

My WW has the kids this week so I had to make a decision to meet up with them to ride and drop my daughter off. I could not miss her first day of school for the world. So, I rode with them to the school, gave her a hug and comforted her as she was crying while getting out of the car.

I really didn't say much to the WW other than a few things about the kids. I then went to her place after work to talk to my daughter about her first day. I realize i could have done this from phone but it's just a big moment and i wanted to be there for her. Again, no talk amongst me and WW.

Fast forward to this morning 6AM. I wake up and i have a couple of texts from WW she sent at 5AM.

"I can't do this anymore"

"*** told me she thinks i don't love her anymore. She's been acting out so much. She hated me for this. I can't do this to her anymore. It's breaking my heart. She has so much anger and anxiety and it's my fault"...

I simply responded "Can't do what anymore?"

She never answered. 

I called her around noon to find out what she means by that, and she honestly didn't really give an answer, it was basically 'don't worry about it i'll figure it out.' Then she just spoke about some things our daughter told her. I'm just sitting there like "i'm really not sure what you want me to say/do". Anyways, we ended the call. In hindsight i should have just left that text alone and let her respond if/when she wanted.

Then, this afternoon after i'm off of work she calls and asks if i'm home because she wants to talk "in person"...uhh ok.

She comes over and basically attempts to guilt trip me because she can't find affordable housing right now. I'm sure the rest of the country is just as insane as where I am, but the price of decent+ houses/apartments are just crazy right now.

Well due to her not having a guaranteed income and her informing me 2 deals fell through, she's feeling the heat.(remember I'm still giving her 1600/mo). But, after her spiel, again i asked "what do you want from me?"...what is this about? what do you want me to do? Why are you here?

She says she just wanted me to know what she's going through and how all of her time with the kids is spent looking for a place and nothing's affordable. Of course i brought up some affordable apts but they apparently are not nice enough for her and she doesn't want the kids there. Cool!, apparently I'm supposed to support both msyelf and put her up in a lavish 3br house. Such spoiled, entitled ********.

She is definitely trying to use the kids to manipulate me, and insinuating i don't care about the kid's safety since i'm "allowing" them to live in one of these apartments.

Oh, she also threw in the "you have a lawyer so i'm going to get one"(i just have one i paid to put our docs together assuming this was going to be cordial. Insinuating that she's going to come after more spousal support so she can afford something nicer, lol. Of course I just got the judgement with our AGREED upon spousal Monday afternoon and she hadn't signed it yet. I think the lawyer is a emotional bluff, she has no $ for a lawyer right now.

At that point I was just over it. She left and put the kids in the car. I told her to come back in the house and basically told her she has no right to come in here, raise her voice and get an attitude with me after everything she's done the last 2 months. I then told her she's no longer welcome in the house and I won't go into hers. Transfer of kids will take place outside. She said OK and left.

Tonight I was still fuming that she nerve to come in the house and act that way. So i texted her telling her i've been nothing but cordial this entire time. I have yet to raise my voice or basically tell her anything negative despite HAVING EVERY REASON TO DO SO. I tell her she needs to quit trying to place guilt on my shoulders, and to also look into getting a job with a stable income(she is certified teacher but wants to chase the RE dream). Her response:

"easy for you to say. you're not worried about finding a decent place to live. Maybe i'm stressed out and shouldn't raise my voice, but you have the nice house and the nice car and i'm over here desperately trying to find a place to get settled. And maybe you think that's fair. But i just thought you should know since the kids need a place to live"

lol, what in the ****ing hell. This is what I am dealing with. I am now officially done. Engaging with her will get nowhere unless it's me just blindly giving her whatever she wants. Even though technically this was "about the kids" I am just done talking with her about anything than kid's health or logistics of the transfer. I know i know, TL;DR


----------



## johndoe12299

i really think she's bipolar, and i don't throw that term around lightly. She was extremely nice yesterday when i visited my daughter. I guess losing those 2 deals sent her over the edge


----------



## manowar

johndoe12299 said:


> what she's going through



So what. Her decision.

just tell her to have her boyfriend buy her a house and the rest of her material comforts. Not your problem.

make her fend for herself. Dont do the things she relied upon you for. Just do the bare minimum that you are required.

tell her your primary objective is divorce. You have plans for getting on with your life. She's used to the nice guy she was married to. Those days are over.



johndoe12299 said:


> told her she has no right to come in here, raise her voice and get an attitude with me after everything she's done the last 2 months. I then told her she's no longer welcome in the house and I won't go into hers.


NMMNG. Nice guys always lose. Nice job.





johndoe12299 said:


> i really think she's bipolar


Emotions. She may be frightened of what the future has in store. It's unknown and your not there to provide that support.



johndoe12299 said:


> i brought up some affordable apts but they apparently are not nice enough for her and she doesn't want the kids there. Cool!,


that's where she belongs......reality is starting to set in. She was living in the present with no concept of the future. She's learning. Life's a bi*ch. But us guys already know that. 

Stay the course. You know a lot now. Even if you took her back, there's always the risk she'd pull this crap again and you'd be on the hook for much more. Keep that in mind. If she suggests coming home as nothing happened-- Tell her she's high risk and you prefer seeing what's out there as a single man with a great career. Looks like the balance of power is beginning to shift. I told you that when guys are in their 30s the game changes. You have the upper hand and she knows it. Believe it or not, she's going to respect you more.


----------



## Beach123

Let her figure it out. It’s not your job to handle her issues anymore.

If she wants to complain to a man - she can call her boyfriend.

Don’t respond to her emotional tantrums anymore! Anything she communicates is designed to get YOU to give HER more! Do not respond. 

She can figure out her problems now. Rinse and repeat… 🙄


----------



## Marc878

This will be your life if you don’t learn to ignore. No contact is your only good path. No one can get dumped on like this without allowing it. 
She fired you. Stay fired. Or pay the price.


----------



## Evinrude58

There is a segment of the population that feels they are entitled to be treated as special snowflakes and are experts at manipulating others with whatever leverage they can find to get their wants met. Wants, not needs.

i agree with everyone else— let her bf worry about her. She chose him over you. Make her own that choice as best you can.

Tell her if she’s that worried about your daughter, that your daughter can stay with the loyal, responsible parent and she can go **** her bf in whatever 18$ a night hotel she wants. Not your circus, not your monkeys anymore.


----------



## Luckylucky

It sounds like she wants you in bad housing driving a bad car… and she’s going to get loud until she gets it. Be careful. 

Have you explicitly told her to stop these texts/talks? Just stuck to a drop off point like you asked? Keep the messages at exactly this: time and place. 

She’s pulling on your heart strings and blame-shifting ‘aren’t you sorry the kids have to stay in a dump?’

You keep getting sucked into the drama and you’re going to end up losing every time. She wants it all! Don’t you see it? 

And why should you be suggesting places?? Don’t be doing her work, she was adult enough to leave in the first place, and she’s probably not spending all her time even looking for apartments at all! She’s expecting you to sort out the mess, she doesn’t really want an apartment, she’s probably wanting to come home and for you to go away.


----------



## Kaliber

@johndoe12299, I know it's very hard for you, after all she was you wife for a long time, but you should have the discipline to recognise that if someone betray you to the level that she did, you cut them off from your life, that's what strong successful men do!

This response from you should have never happened:


johndoe12299 said:


> I simply responded "Can't do what anymore?"


What problems she has with your daughter is her problem to solve, after all she caused this.
Ignore her completely unless it's for the kids!

Oh and a very good advice that EVERY lawyer will tell you, keep things in writing (emails, texts ..Etc) you need to have everything kept as evidence or reference if needed, no more phone or face to face talks!

Soon, you will see what's out there for you and you will be very excited and happy!


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I was worried for a minute reading your update, but you stepped up and put her in her place. Good for you. The effing nerve she has! She sure as hell didn’t have your kids’ interests in mind when she decided to fire her husband and get a boyfriend! If she’s that concerned, the kids can just be with you all the time and she can pay you child support! 

The nerve. Seriously, the effing nerve. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Zedd

Don't need to say this out loud to her, but keep saying it to yourself.

"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

That's her.


----------



## MattMatt

johndoe12299 said:


> Welp.
> 
> Bit of a 180 timer reset yet again. This one was a bit out of my hands. Yesterday was my kid's first day of kindergarten. Well, due to COVID you can only drop your kid off, can't get out of vehicle.
> 
> My WW has the kids this week so I had to make a decision to meet up with them to ride and drop my daughter off. I could not miss her first day of school for the world. So, I rode with them to the school, gave her a hug and comforted her as she was crying while getting out of the car.
> 
> I really didn't say much to the WW other than a few things about the kids. I then went to her place after work to talk to my daughter about her first day. I realize i could have done this from phone but it's just a big moment and i wanted to be there for her. Again, no talk amongst me and WW.
> 
> Fast forward to this morning 6AM. I wake up and i have a couple of texts from WW she sent at 5AM.
> 
> "I can't do this anymore"
> 
> "*** told me she thinks i don't love her anymore. She's been acting out so much. She hated me for this. I can't do this to her anymore. It's breaking my heart. She has so much anger and anxiety and it's my fault"...
> 
> I simply responded "Can't do what anymore?"
> 
> She never answered.
> 
> I called her around noon to find out what she means by that, and she honestly didn't really give an answer, it was basically 'don't worry about it i'll figure it out.' Then she just spoke about some things our daughter told her. I'm just sitting there like "i'm really not sure what you want me to say/do". Anyways, we ended the call. In hindsight i should have just left that text alone and let her respond if/when she wanted.
> 
> Then, this afternoon after i'm off of work she calls and asks if i'm home because she wants to talk "in person"...uhh ok.
> 
> She comes over and basically attempts to guilt trip me because she can't find affordable housing right now. I'm sure the rest of the country is just as insane as where I am, but the price of decent+ houses/apartments are just crazy right now.
> 
> Well due to her not having a guaranteed income and her informing me 2 deals fell through, she's feeling the heat.(remember I'm still giving her 1600/mo). But, after her spiel, again i asked "what do you want from me?"...what is this about? what do you want me to do? Why are you here?
> 
> She says she just wanted me to know what she's going through and how all of her time with the kids is spent looking for a place and nothing's affordable. Of course i brought up some affordable apts but they apparently are not nice enough for her and she doesn't want the kids there. Cool!, apparently I'm supposed to support both msyelf and put her up in a lavish 3br house. Such spoiled, entitled ******.
> 
> She is definitely trying to use the kids to manipulate me, and insinuating i don't care about the kid's safety since i'm "allowing" them to live in one of these apartments.
> 
> Oh, she also threw in the "you have a lawyer so i'm going to get one"(i just have one i paid to put our docs together assuming this was going to be cordial. Insinuating that she's going to come after more spousal support so she can afford something nicer, lol. Of course I just got the judgement with our AGREED upon spousal Monday afternoon and she hadn't signed it yet. I think the lawyer is a emotional bluff, she has no $ for a lawyer right now.
> 
> At that point I was just over it. She left and put the kids in the car. I told her to come back in the house and basically told her she has no right to come in here, raise her voice and get an attitude with me after everything she's done the last 2 months. I then told her she's no longer welcome in the house and I won't go into hers. Transfer of kids will take place outside. She said OK and left.
> 
> Tonight I was still fuming that she nerve to come in the house and act that way. So i texted her telling her i've been nothing but cordial this entire time. I have yet to raise my voice or basically tell her anything negative despite HAVING EVERY REASON TO DO SO. I tell her she needs to quit trying to place guilt on my shoulders, and to also look into getting a job with a stable income(she is certified teacher but wants to chase the RE dream). Her response:
> 
> "easy for you to say. you're not worried about finding a decent place to live. Maybe i'm stressed out and shouldn't raise my voice, but you have the nice house and the nice car and i'm over here desperately trying to find a place to get settled. And maybe you think that's fair. But i just thought you should know since the kids need a place to live"
> 
> lol, what in the ****ing hell. This is what I am dealing with. I am now officially done. Engaging with her will get nowhere unless it's me just blindly giving her whatever she wants. Even though technically this was "about the kids" I am just done talking with her about anything than kid's health or logistics of the transfer. I know i know, TL;DR


Don't worry about that TL;DR stuff. We ain't Reddit and longer, more thoughtful posts are welcome on TAM!


----------



## Kamstel2

Just try to apply some pressure to speed up the process. Whenever she texts/calls you, just ask her when can she get together and settle the next item in the process.


----------



## Kamstel2

Keep moving forward. We’ve been there and understand where you are and what you’ve had to do.

just lower you head and bull through this hell!!!

I promise that once everything is finalized, you will be shocked at how much of a weight has been lifted from your shoulders. And you will also be shocked at just how good the other side is.

how is the online dating/window shopping going?

is a single female friend that you can take out to dinnner, just as friends? It might be a good way to transition to seeing other women.

good luck and continue to stay strong!!
you will make it


----------



## Beach123

Any time she complains - inform her that your solution is:

You are willing to take 100% custody! Maybe that alone will get her to quit bringing you her problems.

Or maybe she just may agree… then you could get your support amount reduced!


----------



## johndoe12299

Thanks everyone.

So, all that was 2 days ago. Yesterday morning she texted apologizing for everything. Taking her emotional outbursts on me, and how didn't deserve any of it, and that she will figure things out, etc etc... I said ok thanks and told her the time i would pick up the kids that afternoon.

Now for the bad news...

she lives literally 1/2 mile from my office. On the way to my office at around lunch time, i just completely fell apart and decided i just wanted to go over there. No other reason than I was just thinking with the other head. 

I got to her place and we just talked for a bit. Nothing physical happened until we were getting ready to leave. I just took her and put her up against the kitchen counter and kissed her. Felt her up a bit but that was it as we had to go get our kid from school. 

It was completely stupid and I knew it was stupid from the minute i made the decision to pull into her driveway. What can I say, I'm human and gave it to my physical urges. If there's any positive I'm glad I didn't initiate anything earlier b/c i'm sure it would have led to sex.

I am feeling like **** since last night. I hate that I did it and I hate how weak it makes me look. What kind of dude wants to kiss/feel/sex up the woman that left his family for another guy(oh by the way, she says they're no longer talking,lol)? It just makes me look so weak in my eyes and hers i'm sure.

I felt like i was doiong a reasonable job up until now but I just balled everything up, threw in the trashcan and am starting all over.

I dont even know why i had such an urge to go there. I should have been pissed after everything that happened the day before. Glutton for punishment i guess.


----------



## johndoe12299

I really feel like I let everyone down and in a way turned my back on you all. I say that because you are taking time out of your lives to not only read my walls of texts, but give very solid advice. Forgive me, i will do my best to not f up in the future.


----------



## Marc878

Sorry man but it sounds like she threw out a breadcrumb and you bit. Does that magically change who she is? Nope.

You weren’t the first nor will you be the last to fall off the wagon.

If you give her back control don’t expect miracles. You feel like **** became you’ve reset the clock back to zero.

Learn from it. Move forward.


----------



## Marc878

Some of my best lessons have been from mistakes I’ve made.


----------



## johndoe12299

You are right. And I knew it in the process, lol. Didn't have the self control. I'll be glad when she moves further away next month.


----------



## johndoe12299

On a positive note, found out my neighbor is doing BJJ so i had my first class tuesday and go again tonight. Good group of guys and something I've always wanted to do. Also in talking to my neighbor about my situation; found out he went through the same thing and he was very understanding and accommodating. It's crazy how when you start talking to people about this, you find out how common it is. It's good to find another guy that can empathize with you.


----------



## Kaliber

johndoe12299 said:


> Thanks everyone.
> 
> So, all that was 2 days ago. Yesterday morning she texted apologizing for everything. Taking her emotional outbursts on me, and how didn't deserve any of it, and that she will figure things out, etc etc... I said ok thanks and told her the time i would pick up the kids that afternoon.
> 
> Now for the bad news...
> 
> she lives literally 1/2 mile from my office. On the way to my office at around lunch time, i just completely fell apart and decided i just wanted to go over there. No other reason than I was just thinking with the other head.
> 
> I got to her place and we just talked for a bit. Nothing physical happened until we were getting ready to leave. I just took her and put her up against the kitchen counter and kissed her. Felt her up a bit but that was it as we had to go get our kid from school.
> 
> It was completely stupid and I knew it was stupid from the minute i made the decision to pull into her driveway. What can I say, I'm human and gave it to my physical urges. If there's any positive I'm glad I didn't initiate anything earlier b/c i'm sure it would have led to sex.
> 
> I am feeling like **** since last night. I hate that I did it and I hate how weak it makes me look. What kind of dude wants to kiss/feel/sex up the woman that left his family for another guy(oh by the way, she says they're no longer talking,lol)? It just makes me look so weak in my eyes and hers i'm sure.
> 
> I felt like i was doiong a reasonable job up until now but I just balled everything up, threw in the trashcan and am starting all over.
> 
> I dont even know why i had such an urge to go there. I should have been pissed after everything that happened the day before. Glutton for punishment i guess.


How can you not control yourself maaaaan!
/smaking_my_head_on_table
/runing_naked_outside_screeming
/neighbours_calling_the_cops

You need to start dating to forget about her!
Really, start dating!
And Hit the gym every day!


----------



## Jamieboy

Its ok to stumble on the way as long as you don't lose site of the end goal. Like you say we're human. 

Not many will say this, but you might want to forgive this poor behaviour on her side one day. But it should come from a place of strength. 

Divorce first, she needs to feel the consequences of her actions. Im still super impressed with your class while dealing with this.


----------



## johndoe12299

Marc was right. She dangled a carrot "sometimes i think about getting back together and starting from scratch" and i fell for it. 

What annoys me the most is that i knew I was falling for the bait and couldn't control myself. 

Well, could have been worse. Sex would've been really bad.


----------



## johndoe12299

She sent a few texts after the encounter that I'll have to share later


----------



## Evinrude58

johndoe12299 said:


> Marc was right. She dangled a carrot "sometimes i think about getting back together and starting from scratch" and i fell for it.
> 
> What annoys me the most is that i knew I was falling for the bait and couldn't control myself.
> 
> Well, could have been worse. Sex would've been really bad.


No, the sex would’ve been really good, and the fact that you likes it would be really bad because you’re back to being mind ****ed all over again.


----------



## johndoe12299

lol, this si true...yes, physcially it would have been great. But terrible for my mind. The kiss was hot and passionate of course..


----------



## Beach123

In those weak moments - it may help to remember who she is now! Not the gal you thought she WAS!

She is the gal who ruined your family with her selfish choices.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> She sent a few texts after the encounter that I'll have to share later


Learn to ignore. You can only be a chump if you allow it.


----------



## RebuildingMe

The only "carrot" most women have is sex, so they learn how to use it to get what they want, inside and outside of marriages.


----------



## Openminded

Stay away from her. That was totally predictable. She’s good at manipulating you and you’re good at falling for it.


----------



## johndoe12299

Beach123 said:


> In those weak moments - it may help to remember who she is now! Not the gal you thought she WAS!
> 
> She is the gal who ruined your family with her selfish choices.


I started keeping a list of all the things she's done to hurt me...just as a reminder in these weak moments. I need to carry it in my pocket.


----------



## manowar

Dude -- you are a piece of work. You are honest though. 

Things she's done to hurt you: 1) "I was cucked".

There is one thing you can do that will really get her attention. It works 99.9% of the time. It's not playing games or being immature. You find another woman. Younger and Hotter. I've never seen this fail. Or just any girl. Or let her think you've got a new woman. But you have to go NC and forget the wife for a good 6 months - 1 year. 

You can't let go of the Nice Guy (you seem to love so much). what's so great about the nice guy. where did it get you. Try the other way. See where that gets you. Trust us. It works.


----------



## Beach123

I don’t agree with using another woman to make the stbxw jealous. Using anyone for your own best interest is unkind.
Don’t ever be alone with her - especially since you can’t control yourself. Ever!

Anything she needs to say she can text. Stop s ring her in person! 
She may be trying to get pregnant - to use you even further. Stop falling for her crap!


----------



## johndoe12299

It's tough. 36 years of being a "nice guy" is hard to break in 2.5 months. I keep answering when she calls because it's usually about the kids. But, not always. Do i just come out and tell her straight up to not call unless it's about the kids? She'll probably laugh at me if i say that now after what I did yesterday, but i suppose better now than never.

For example, she called me tonight and asked about an email she received and whether it was spam. I just answered her and hung up. But, yeah, i know i shouldn't be doing that. I guess i'll just have to be blunt with her. Need her to sign the court judgement with the agreed upon CS payments first I suppose.


----------



## Openminded

Yes, tell her you’ll only talk to her about the kids. And make that stick. She’s looking for ways to reel you back in and you keep giving them to her. The answer is no.


----------



## manowar

Its not about saying its about acting. The saying is in your behavior. You are a free man and you're going to do as you please. Nothing needs to be said. Is she submissive? Up your alpha traits. Bet you get a very positive response. You can be a beta man with alpha traits. what you cant be is a beta man with beta traits. Those dudes have serious problems.



Beach123 said:


> I don’t agree with using another woman to make the stbxw jealous. Using anyone for your own best interest is unkind.


Youre right. Neither do I. It's not about using someone. Its about OP being a free man . . he's single now. He's not tethered to any woman. If his wife responds negatively to it, as a by-product, so be it. Op doesn't care. I don't mean get a serious gf. More like dating different women. Care free.


----------



## ABHale

johndoe12299 said:


> Welp.
> 
> Bit of a 180 timer reset yet again. This one was a bit out of my hands. Yesterday was my kid's first day of kindergarten. Well, due to COVID you can only drop your kid off, can't get out of vehicle.
> 
> My WW has the kids this week so I had to make a decision to meet up with them to ride and drop my daughter off. I could not miss her first day of school for the world. So, I rode with them to the school, gave her a hug and comforted her as she was crying while getting out of the car.
> 
> I really didn't say much to the WW other than a few things about the kids. I then went to her place after work to talk to my daughter about her first day. I realize i could have done this from phone but it's just a big moment and i wanted to be there for her. Again, no talk amongst me and WW.
> 
> Fast forward to this morning 6AM. I wake up and i have a couple of texts from WW she sent at 5AM.
> 
> "I can't do this anymore"
> 
> "*** told me she thinks i don't love her anymore. She's been acting out so much. She hated me for this. I can't do this to her anymore. It's breaking my heart. She has so much anger and anxiety and it's my fault"...
> 
> I simply responded "Can't do what anymore?"
> 
> She never answered.
> 
> I called her around noon to find out what she means by that, and she honestly didn't really give an answer, it was basically 'don't worry about it i'll figure it out.' Then she just spoke about some things our daughter told her. I'm just sitting there like "i'm really not sure what you want me to say/do". Anyways, we ended the call. In hindsight i should have just left that text alone and let her respond if/when she wanted.
> 
> Then, this afternoon after i'm off of work she calls and asks if i'm home because she wants to talk "in person"...uhh ok.
> 
> She comes over and basically attempts to guilt trip me because she can't find affordable housing right now. I'm sure the rest of the country is just as insane as where I am, but the price of decent+ houses/apartments are just crazy right now.
> 
> Well due to her not having a guaranteed income and her informing me 2 deals fell through, she's feeling the heat.(remember I'm still giving her 1600/mo). But, after her spiel, again i asked "what do you want from me?"...what is this about? what do you want me to do? Why are you here?
> 
> She says she just wanted me to know what she's going through and how all of her time with the kids is spent looking for a place and nothing's affordable. Of course i brought up some affordable apts but they apparently are not nice enough for her and she doesn't want the kids there. Cool!, apparently I'm supposed to support both msyelf and put her up in a lavish 3br house. Such spoiled, entitled ******.
> 
> She is definitely trying to use the kids to manipulate me, and insinuating i don't care about the kid's safety since i'm "allowing" them to live in one of these apartments.
> 
> Oh, she also threw in the "you have a lawyer so i'm going to get one"(i just have one i paid to put our docs together assuming this was going to be cordial. Insinuating that she's going to come after more spousal support so she can afford something nicer, lol. Of course I just got the judgement with our AGREED upon spousal Monday afternoon and she hadn't signed it yet. I think the lawyer is a emotional bluff, she has no $ for a lawyer right now.
> 
> At that point I was just over it. She left and put the kids in the car. I told her to come back in the house and basically told her she has no right to come in here, raise her voice and get an attitude with me after everything she's done the last 2 months. I then told her she's no longer welcome in the house and I won't go into hers. Transfer of kids will take place outside. She said OK and left.
> 
> Tonight I was still fuming that she nerve to come in the house and act that way. So i texted her telling her i've been nothing but cordial this entire time. I have yet to raise my voice or basically tell her anything negative despite HAVING EVERY REASON TO DO SO. I tell her she needs to quit trying to place guilt on my shoulders, and to also look into getting a job with a stable income(she is certified teacher but wants to chase the RE dream). Her response:
> 
> "easy for you to say. you're not worried about finding a decent place to live. Maybe i'm stressed out and shouldn't raise my voice, but you have the nice house and the nice car and i'm over here desperately trying to find a place to get settled. And maybe you think that's fair. But i just thought you should know since the kids need a place to live"
> 
> lol, what in the ****ing hell. This is what I am dealing with. I am now officially done. Engaging with her will get nowhere unless it's me just blindly giving her whatever she wants. Even though technically this was "about the kids" I am just done talking with her about anything than kid's health or logistics of the transfer. I know i know, TL;DR


You should let her know that the kids had and still have a place to live. That she is the only one without a place.


----------



## Zedd

johndoe12299 said:


> Do i just come out and tell her straight up to not call unless it's about the kids? She'll probably laugh at me if i say that now after what I did yesterday, but i suppose better now than never.


Nothing wrong with asking her to only contact via text. Let her know you're messed up and you're having difficulty processing and responding appropriately in real time. Text gives you a moment to reflect and you'd appreciate that level of respect at the moment. You deserve it after what you've been through.

That's not weakness, it's setting a boundary.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> It's tough. 36 years of being a "nice guy" is hard to break in 2.5 months. I keep answering when she calls because it's usually about the kids. But, not always. Do i just come out and tell her straight up to not call unless it's about the kids? She'll probably laugh at me if i say that now after what I did yesterday, but i suppose better now than never.
> 
> For example, she called me tonight and asked about an email she received and whether it was spam. I just answered her and hung up. But, yeah, i know i shouldn't be doing that. I guess i'll just have to be blunt with her. Need her to sign the court judgement with the agreed upon CS payments first I suppose.


Nope, no contact is up to you. Limit her to text or email. That way you can ignore anything not kid related. Making excuses to talk will not get you where you need to be. At this time what is giving her control getting you?


----------



## Perkman0109

0


----------



## Robert22205

She's keeping you in the friend zone so she can use you. 

When she calls for advice/assistance that's not related to the kids - advise her to call her boyfriend and hang up.


----------



## johndoe12299

Well this happened quicker than I thought. She texted yesterday wanting to "talk" about what "us getting back together would require and what it would look like"...


----------



## Zedd

Well, it's entirely up to you, but don't be afraid to ask her if she met a scientist possessing a DeLorean with a flux capacitor.


----------



## Diceplayer

johndoe12299 said:


> Well this happened quicker than I thought. She texted yesterday wanting to "talk" about what "us getting back together would require and what it would look like"...


Yeah, that's what usually happens when the boyfriend dumps them. You are plan B my friend.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Well this happened quicker than I thought. She texted yesterday wanting to "talk" about what "us getting back together would require and what it would look like"...


Yep, boyfriend didn’t work out now she’s throwing out breadcrumbs to see if you’ll be her chump again.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Well this happened quicker than I thought. She texted yesterday wanting to "talk" about what "us getting back together would require and what it would look like"...


If I come back under my terms of course there might be some sloppy seconds in it for you but I can’t promise anything.


----------



## Evinrude58

Zedd said:


> Well, it's entirely up to you, but don't be afraid to ask her if she met a scientist possessing a DeLorean with a flux capacitor.


Why can’t I be that quick witted? Damn


----------



## jlg07

johndoe12299 said:


> It's tough. 36 years of being a "nice guy" is hard to break in 2.5 months. I keep answering when she calls because it's usually about the kids. But, not always. Do i just come out and tell her straight up to not call unless it's about the kids? She'll probably laugh at me if i say that now after what I did yesterday, but i suppose better now than never.
> 
> For example, she called me tonight and asked about an email she received and whether it was spam. I just answered her and hung up. But, yeah, i know i shouldn't be doing that. I guess i'll just have to be blunt with her. Need her to sign the court judgement with the agreed upon CS payments first I suppose.


Just don't answer any phone calls. TEXT her and say if she needs something for the kids, text YOU. and leave it at that.
If she starts complaining why you don't answer the phone, IGNORE those texts or text "Just text my about anything to do with the kids"


----------



## seadoug105

Zedd said:


> Well, it's entirely up to you, but don't be afraid to ask her if she met a scientist possessing a DeLorean with a flux capacitor.


----------



## Kaliber

@johndoe12299 known how you broke your 180 I can see how hard this will be for you!
I remember you said you wanted to be a different man, why? so nothing like this in the future will drag you down or anyone will disrespect you or betray you!
What if you replied: *Sorry, not interested!*
Think about it!
If you reply like this what do you think will happen?
What message you are sending?
What kind of man you will be or show?
What kind of future you will have?

What you choose right now will shape your future!
So think about it, very simple: *Sorry, not interested!* (do you think you can do that?)

One thing for sure, do not gaslight you self: The kids, the sex, the finance, the alimony ..Etc
Leave all that out, and think about yourself, as a man, about your dignity, about your honor, and you happiness!
She will know how much you value yourself if you open the door for her again!

Remember, *you paid the full price for something that another guy got for free and easy!!*
He dumped her, that's why she wants back, you were never her first choice, do you want the leftovers from another man!
He took your wife, enjoyed her, had his fun, knew her worth, despite he is a POS, he is very smart, he knows his value, he knows you can't build a future with a cheater who easily nuked her own family, threw her away, and you want the leftovers from him?

Don't deny yourself happens and a life with dignity and respect!
At the end, it's your call, but think deep and hard about it before you make a decision, and NEVER gaslight yourself!


----------



## Kaliber

Oh and don't believe if she says she is the one who dumped him, she risked every thing and lost her family for that POS, this is how much he meant to her!
BUT NOW she text you:


> wanting to "talk" about what "us getting back together would require and what it would look like"


So for the other man she nukes every thing and destroys her family for it, she never cared "*what it would look like*" after her betrayal, and I bet you she never talked with him on "*what it would look like*" for their future together, she didn't care, she did it all for him, for a guy who didn't even do 1% of what you did for her, and YOU the betrayed husband (Who paid the full price) she says lets talk on "*what it would look like*" and negotiate the requirements to get back together, WOW just wow!

She should be at the front door with a sleeping bag asking for your forgiveness!

Are you seeing what I'm seeing?!


----------



## Affaircare

johndoe12299 said:


> Well this happened quicker than I thought. She texted yesterday wanting to "talk" about what "us getting back together would require and what it would look like"...


@johndoe12299,

#1 Please read your list of all the things she's done to hurt you. This is not to dwell in the past or hold it as a grudge against her, but rather as a reminder TO YOU of the way she acted. This is the person she is. This is what she is capable of doing. Is that the kind of person you would like to consider getting together with?

#2 One week ago today, she "lost her ****" and tried to blame you and guilt you that she had nowhere to live and couldn't afford anywhere that she liked...because she lost two RE deals. A) SHE had a nice home and whole family and SHE decided to throw that all away to chase a loser ... not you. B) There are places she can afford, she just doesn't like them. C) She BLAMED YOU for her choices. D) She "lost her ****" at you. E) She tried to use your children to manipulate you. None of those things are loving or respectful. Not one. This is the person she is. This is what she is capable of doing. Is that the kind of person you would like to consider getting together with?

#3 Seven days ago, you literally wrote these words: "_i really think she's bipolar, and i don't throw that term around lightly._" What about her has changed? Has she been to therapy? Has she seen a medical doctor? Has she seen a psychiatrist? Has she begun a new medication for her mental illness? If not, then that means she is STILL bipolar and untreated! It's conceivable that she has come to realize the stupidity of her choices to break up her family and leave her nice home, but not one thing ABOUT HER has changed. This is the person she still is. She is still capable of treating you in an unmedicated, bipolar way. Is that the kind of person you would like to consider getting together with?

#4 What's in it for you? Is she a great lay? A warm, loving, and affectionate partner? Accepting of you and who you are? Do you two connect spiritually, emotionally, and physically? Is she your best friend? Can you trust her with your life? I mean, I "get" the concept of not destroying your children's lives, and that is a big thing, but what is in the possibility of getting back together FOR YOU? YOU, @johndoe12299 . 

I think her concept of "getting back together" means something like "Could we please go back to the way it was so I don't have to experience the consequences of my choices or how I treated you?" But for you, if getting back together means that she is still asexual, doesn't really like you that much, blames you for her choices, is nice to you one minute (to get what she wants) and then a ***** to you the next, does not treat you kindly or like a friend, doesn't share interests and hobbies with you... I mean this sincerely: what possible reason would you have to go back to that?

IF IT WERE ME, I'd have this talk with her about "us getting back together would require and what it would look like"... and I'd lay it out like this:
1) She would have to be 100% honest with the kids about her affair
2) She would have to tell all family and close friends about the affair so that they know it was HER fault and not yours. 
3) She would have to live on her own for a year, to learn how hard it is to provide and to learn how good she HAD it.
4) During that time, she would attend therapy with a counselor who specializes in adultery, and she would WORK ON HERSELF to correct the character flaws that allowed her to commit adultery.
5) She would have to demonstrate, for a year or more, that she can act in a way that is worthy of your trust.
6) She would have to demonstrate, for a year or more, that she can treat you in a loving and respectful way.
7) She would have to demonstrate, for a year or more, that she desires you sexually.
ETC. 

Seriously...I don't think she's changed one bit. For people to change, there usually has to be some lifechanging event--such as a huge car accident, losing a parent or loved one, or a couple years of steady therapy--and that event serves as a catalyst for them to realize life is short and they need to be different! I see NOTHING like that with her, and to me that means what she's asking you is "Could I go back to being the way I was please?" Well, you tell me. This is the person she is--she hasn't changed. This is what she is capable of doing--and will likely do again because she hasn't changed. Is that the kind of person you would like to consider getting together with?


----------



## manowar

johndoe12299 said:


> Well this happened quicker than I thought. She texted yesterday wanting to "talk" about what "us getting back together would require and what it would look like"...



Had a feeling this would happen. Agree that she got dumped by the other guy. OM was in no position financially to get serious. The stronger you are the more* respect *she'll have for you. respect that you want from her is not fully there. That means not giving in so easily as she probably expects because her current options suck. Hold her ass to the fire for her wretched behavior. This cannot simply be overlooked. Dude you are a provider, Dont kid yourself. Show that you are something more. Hope you learned something about how important male behavior is. It's everything in male/female dynamics. The weak guy loses.


----------



## Evinrude58

Good post from affaircare. Something to consider.


----------



## Marc878

Most don’t think about what they’d be getting back. Plus the capability to do this again is there.


----------



## johndoe12299

Affaircare said:


> @johndoe12299,
> 
> #1 Please read your list of all the things she's done to hurt you. This is not to dwell in the past or hold it as a grudge against her, but rather as a reminder TO YOU of the way she acted. This is the person she is. This is what she is capable of doing. Is that the kind of person you would like to consider getting together with?
> 
> #2 One week ago today, she "lost her **" and tried to blame you and guilt you that she had nowhere to live and couldn't afford anywhere that she liked...because she lost two RE deals. A) SHE had a nice home and whole family and SHE decided to throw that all away to chase a loser ... not you. B) There are places she can afford, she just doesn't like them. C) She BLAMED YOU for her choices. D) She "lost her **" at you. E) She tried to use your children to manipulate you. None of those things are loving or respectful. Not one. This is the person she is. This is what she is capable of doing. Is that the kind of person you would like to consider getting together with?
> 
> #3 Seven days ago, you literally wrote these words: "_i really think she's bipolar, and i don't throw that term around lightly._" What about her has changed? Has she been to therapy? Has she seen a medical doctor? Has she seen a psychiatrist? Has she begun a new medication for her mental illness? If not, then that means she is STILL bipolar and untreated! It's conceivable that she has come to realize the stupidity of her choices to break up her family and leave her nice home, but not one thing ABOUT HER has changed. This is the person she still is. She is still capable of treating you in an unmedicated, bipolar way. Is that the kind of person you would like to consider getting together with?
> 
> #4 What's in it for you? Is she a great lay? A warm, loving, and affectionate partner? Accepting of you and who you are? Do you two connect spiritually, emotionally, and physically? Is she your best friend? Can you trust her with your life? I mean, I "get" the concept of not destroying your children's lives, and that is a big thing, but what is in the possibility of getting back together FOR YOU? YOU, @johndoe12299 .
> 
> I think her concept of "getting back together" means something like "Could we please go back to the way it was so I don't have to experience the consequences of my choices or how I treated you?" But for you, if getting back together means that she is still asexual, doesn't really like you that much, blames you for her choices, is nice to you one minute (to get what she wants) and then a *** to you the next, does not treat you kindly or like a friend, doesn't share interests and hobbies with you... I mean this sincerely: what possible reason would you have to go back to that?
> 
> IF IT WERE ME, I'd have this talk with her about "us getting back together would require and what it would look like"... and I'd lay it out like this:
> 1) She would have to be 100% honest with the kids about her affair
> 2) She would have to tell all family and close friends about the affair so that they know it was HER fault and not yours.
> 3) She would have to live on her own for a year, to learn how hard it is to provide and to learn how good she HAD it.
> 4) During that time, she would attend therapy with a counselor who specializes in adultery, and she would WORK ON HERSELF to correct the character flaws that allowed her to commit adultery.
> 5) She would have to demonstrate, for a year or more, that she can act in a way that is worthy of your trust.
> 6) She would have to demonstrate, for a year or more, that she can treat you in a loving and respectful way.
> 7) She would have to demonstrate, for a year or more, that she desires you sexually.
> ETC.
> 
> Seriously...I don't think she's changed one bit. For people to change, there usually has to be some lifechanging event--such as a huge car accident, losing a parent or loved one, or a couple years of steady therapy--and that event serves as a catalyst for them to realize life is short and they need to be different! I see NOTHING like that with her, and to me that means what she's asking you is "Could I go back to being the way I was please?" Well, you tell me. This is the person she is--she hasn't changed. This is what she is capable of doing--and will likely do again because she hasn't changed. Is that the kind of person you would like to consider getting together with?


Great post man. Lots to think about and lots of truth in there. I already told her there's no chance of her moving back in, and she agreed. She found an affordable place and just signed a lease. So, that's off the table.

I agreed to meet to hear what she says(shocker, right?), but I'm totally on board with you. She didn't miraculously change overnight. I know more than she thinks I know, and I'm going to ask some questions. The second i get a lie or half truth, then the convo is over and that will be that. I'm going to lay out some terms, not guarantee anything, and tell her a lot of what you listed. I'm going to ask her questions about the OM and her last contact, then when she responds, I'm going to ask to see her phone and go through her calls/texts. If nothing lines up or she doesn't allow me to, then, poof, done.

Even with all that, I'm making no guarantees. Like you said, I will have to see ACTION, not words, over the course of a long period, to even consider starting a new relationship. Our other relationship is dead to me.


My 5yo girl is killing me. Her behavior is unlike anything before all this. I can't imagine what her little brain is going through. Any time I tell her 'no' or that she can't have what she wants, it's "you don't love me, you hate me" etc...and I know it's all because she's feeling betrayed because she no longer has a family. That's what makes all this the hardest. I know i need to put my happiness and self respect, but it's extremely tough when you have a little one crying out for her family...


----------



## Kaliber

johndoe12299 said:


> Great post man. Lots to think about and lots of truth in there. I already told her there's no chance of her moving back in, and she agreed. She found an affordable place and just signed a lease. So, that's off the table.
> 
> I agreed to meet to hear what she says(shocker, right?), but I'm totally on board with you. She didn't miraculously change overnight. I know more than she thinks I know, and I'm going to ask some questions. The second i get a lie or half truth, then the convo is over and that will be that. I'm going to lay out some terms, not guarantee anything, and tell her a lot of what you listed. I'm going to ask her questions about the OM and her last contact, then when she responds, I'm going to ask to see her phone and go through her calls/texts. If nothing lines up or she doesn't allow me to, then, poof, done.
> 
> Even with all that, I'm making no guarantees. Like you said, I will have to see ACTION, not words, over the course of a long period, to even consider starting a new relationship. Our other relationship is dead to me.
> 
> 
> My 5yo girl is killing me. Her behavior is unlike anything before all this. I can't imagine what her little brain is going through. Any time I tell her 'no' or that she can't have what she wants, it's "you don't love me, you hate me" etc...and I know it's all because she's feeling betrayed because she no longer has a family. That's what makes all this the hardest. I know i need to put my happiness and self respect, but it's extremely tough when you have a little one crying out for her family...


@johndoe12299 if you going to the route of that I think your going (reconciliation, and I wouldn't recommend it) I would at least ask you to consider a new strategy!
Your old marriage is gone!
She completely destroyed it.
If she really wants you, then ask her that you divorce but on your terms (No alimony and no CS paid to her), and date after this and maybe re-marry (new rings, new vows ..Etc) ask that.. and watch her actions!!
You will know if she wants you or not!


----------



## johndoe12299

have a few days. any other recommendations on what i should ask/add to my list of demands?

std test
possibly a poygraph - i only say possibly b/c of inaccuracies
full access to electronic devices
leaves her current job or OM does, if he's still there
IC for her
exposure to family/close friends


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Great post man. Lots to think about and lots of truth in there. I already told her there's no chance of her moving back in, and she agreed. She found an affordable place and just signed a lease. So, that's off the table.
> 
> I agreed to meet to hear what she says(shocker, right?), but I'm totally on board with you. She didn't miraculously change overnight. I know more than she thinks I know, and I'm going to ask some questions. The second i get a lie or half truth, then the convo is over and that will be that. I'm going to lay out some terms, not guarantee anything, and tell her a lot of what you listed. I'm going to ask her questions about the OM and her last contact, then when she responds, I'm going to ask to see her phone and go through her calls/texts. If nothing lines up or she doesn't allow me to, then, poof, done.
> 
> Even with all that, I'm making no guarantees. Like you said, I will have to see ACTION, not words, over the course of a long period, to even consider starting a new relationship. Our other relationship is dead to me.
> 
> 
> My 5yo girl is killing me. Her behavior is unlike anything before all this. I can't imagine what her little brain is going through. Any time I tell her 'no' or that she can't have what she wants, it's "you don't love me, you hate me" etc...and I know it's all because she's feeling betrayed because she no longer has a family. That's what makes all this the hardest. I know i need to put my happiness and self respect, but it's extremely tough when you have a little one crying out for her family...


Being a martyr is a tough and thankless task. Your daughter is in this predicament because your wayward wife abandoned her.
If you’re looking for an excuse to take her back you’ll find one.
You will have to be ok being plan B.


----------



## johndoe12299

Kaliber said:


> @johndoe12299 if you going to the route of reconciliation (I wouldn't recommend it) I would at least ask you to consider a new strategy!
> Your old marriage is gone!
> She completely destroyed it.
> If she really wants you, then ask her that you divorce but on your terms (No alimony and no CS paid to her), and date after this and maybe re-marry (new rings, new vows ..Etc) ask that.. and watch her actions!!
> You will know if she wants you or not!


Agree. I am going through with the divorce. Any slim chance of a relationship will be "new" and post divorce. Long ways from now though.


----------



## johndoe12299

any thoughts on a postnuptial? I guess that would only matter if i chose to stay in current marraige.


----------



## Marc878

Sounds like you’ve already planned to take her back. You’re already putting the cart before the the horse.
You apparently haven’t thought ahead. You get to live with this permanently unless she takes off again.


----------



## Kaliber

@johndoe12299 as far as I know, postnuptial never works, it's usually a complement to an already prenup agreement in place (like an update to it), so a new marriage is a must!
If you plan on this new strategy (new marriage) then don't tell her or mention a prenup until you makeup your mind about going through a new marriage (after the divorce)

Watch this, they talk about this in depth (a case a guy got cheated by his wife who got pregnant with AP child), they also talk how to do it and make it an iron clad agreement:


----------



## Luckylucky

I am saddened to hear how much power she still has over you.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

johndoe12299 said:


> have a few days. any other recommendations on what i should ask/add to my list of demands?
> 
> std test
> possibly a poygraph - i only say possibly b/c of inaccuracies
> full access to electronic devices
> leaves her current job or OM does, if he's still there
> IC for her
> exposure to family/close friends


Why are you suddenly willing to even entertain going through this? Just because she brought it up? Because you think you have to, or are supposed to? I do understand your concern for your daughter. 
Can you really even stomach her at this point? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Evinrude58

If she comes back it’s just for the security that living with you provided. And once she gets to feeling secure again, there will be a new guy.

From what you’ve written about the situation, you are setting yourself up to be used and further abused. I know exactly how you feel and how badly you want to stop the pain you’re feeling. Taking her back will lessen it for a while, but it will stretch it out possibly for years. And it will just be worse in the end.


----------



## Openminded

If you’re comfortable being her Plan B (which was predictable) go for it.


----------



## farsidejunky

Affaircare said:


> @johndoe12299,
> 
> #1 Please read your list of all the things she's done to hurt you. This is not to dwell in the past or hold it as a grudge against her, but rather as a reminder TO YOU of the way she acted. This is the person she is. This is what she is capable of doing. Is that the kind of person you would like to consider getting together with?
> 
> #2 One week ago today, she "lost her **" and tried to blame you and guilt you that she had nowhere to live and couldn't afford anywhere that she liked...because she lost two RE deals. A) SHE had a nice home and whole family and SHE decided to throw that all away to chase a loser ... not you. B) There are places she can afford, she just doesn't like them. C) She BLAMED YOU for her choices. D) She "lost her **" at you. E) She tried to use your children to manipulate you. None of those things are loving or respectful. Not one. This is the person she is. This is what she is capable of doing. Is that the kind of person you would like to consider getting together with?
> 
> #3 Seven days ago, you literally wrote these words: "_i really think she's bipolar, and i don't throw that term around lightly._" What about her has changed? Has she been to therapy? Has she seen a medical doctor? Has she seen a psychiatrist? Has she begun a new medication for her mental illness? If not, then that means she is STILL bipolar and untreated! It's conceivable that she has come to realize the stupidity of her choices to break up her family and leave her nice home, but not one thing ABOUT HER has changed. This is the person she still is. She is still capable of treating you in an unmedicated, bipolar way. Is that the kind of person you would like to consider getting together with?
> 
> #4 What's in it for you? Is she a great lay? A warm, loving, and affectionate partner? Accepting of you and who you are? Do you two connect spiritually, emotionally, and physically? Is she your best friend? Can you trust her with your life? I mean, I "get" the concept of not destroying your children's lives, and that is a big thing, but what is in the possibility of getting back together FOR YOU? YOU, @johndoe12299 .
> 
> I think her concept of "getting back together" means something like "Could we please go back to the way it was so I don't have to experience the consequences of my choices or how I treated you?" But for you, if getting back together means that she is still asexual, doesn't really like you that much, blames you for her choices, is nice to you one minute (to get what she wants) and then a *** to you the next, does not treat you kindly or like a friend, doesn't share interests and hobbies with you... I mean this sincerely: what possible reason would you have to go back to that?
> 
> IF IT WERE ME, I'd have this talk with her about "us getting back together would require and what it would look like"... and I'd lay it out like this:
> 1) She would have to be 100% honest with the kids about her affair
> 2) She would have to tell all family and close friends about the affair so that they know it was HER fault and not yours.
> 3) She would have to live on her own for a year, to learn how hard it is to provide and to learn how good she HAD it.
> 4) During that time, she would attend therapy with a counselor who specializes in adultery, and she would WORK ON HERSELF to correct the character flaws that allowed her to commit adultery.
> 5) She would have to demonstrate, for a year or more, that she can act in a way that is worthy of your trust.
> 6) She would have to demonstrate, for a year or more, that she can treat you in a loving and respectful way.
> 7) She would have to demonstrate, for a year or more, that she desires you sexually.
> ETC.
> 
> Seriously...I don't think she's changed one bit. For people to change, there usually has to be some lifechanging event--such as a huge car accident, losing a parent or loved one, or a couple years of steady therapy--and that event serves as a catalyst for them to realize life is short and they need to be different! I see NOTHING like that with her, and to me that means what she's asking you is "Could I go back to being the way I was please?" Well, you tell me. This is the person she is--she hasn't changed. This is what she is capable of doing--and will likely do again because she hasn't changed. Is that the kind of person you would like to consider getting together with?


Don't ever change, AC.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Jamieboy

Dude, couple of things, my marriage was rock solid when my girls were 5 and 7, they still told me they didn't love me etc all the time! It's what kids do to manipulate their parents. Im not saying what you're going through isn't affecting them, but try to understand that you are now the role model for decency and how you act now will inform their stance forever.

Secondly, and this is a sh8tty piece of news to hear, that I believe has already been said in much more prosaic fashion by others. If you take her back, she will not respect you and do it again. Ignoring who dumped who with your wife and her bf, you are second best to a total stranger, when you then allow her to come back consequence free, you lower your stock even further. The problem with consequences, is it is then thrown back in your face when she cheats again.

Im sorry dude, this is a no win scenario, the only way you will ever get back together on an even footing, is if you divorce live your separate lives and come back together as different people. Preferably after you have dated many, many other ladies.


----------



## CrAzYdOgLaDy

If you do have to meet up to discuss divorce, meet in public. That way you won't be tempted to jump on her haha. She will try and make you feel sorry for her and want sex if you meet at home.

When you walk through a storm
Hold your head up high
And don't be afraid of the dark


YNWA


----------



## CrAzYdOgLaDy

She will also lie and minimise her affair. You deserve better. She has no reason to go to your home and you have no reason to go to hers. She will gaslight you and lie lie lie. Don't like seeing good guys being treated like this. You could find a good woman, faithful and loving and genuine. Be strong and don't feel sorry for the cheating wife who didn't care about you while sh*gging another man. 

When you walk through a storm
Hold your head up high
And don't be afraid of the dark


YNWA


----------



## Kaliber

@johndoe12299 I still think you really need to rethink this over, most importantly how she will see you after you show her you are willing to take her back (it doesn't matter if it was on your terms or not), you will be taking a big hit to already suffering value and attractiveness!
Why do you think she wants back? (think about it!)
You are taking someone back who doesn't value you and doesn't see you attractive or else she wouldn't have done what she has done!
Think about it before you decide, and remember there are more healthy and faithful women out their for you!
Don't sell yourself short!


----------



## Diceplayer

johndoe12299 said:


> Any time I tell her 'no' or that she can't have what she wants, it's "you don't love me, you hate me" etc...and I know it's all because she's feeling betrayed because she no longer has a family.


No, it's because she's 5.


----------



## johndoe12299

Struggling with this. Contemplating just calling her and canceling this meetup.

I know what I should do, but geez it's hard to follow through.


----------



## johndoe12299

Safe to say no one in this subforum believes in R?, haha


----------



## johndoe12299

Diceplayer said:


> No, it's because she's 5.


I know how my daughter acted before and after this and it's markedly different. The above is just an example of things she never said before but is now saying.


----------



## Zedd

johndoe12299 said:


> Safe to say no one in this subforum believes in R?, haha


Absolutely untrue. However, it starts with her being 100% forthcoming and honest about everything that happened. It has to include not only the things she doesn't want you to know, but more importantly, all of the things you DON'T want to know.

The only way it works is if she metaphorically strips herself down to nothing so there's nowhere left to hide anything and nothing left to hide.

Do you think she's prepared to do that? Without it, it'll fail.


----------



## Evinrude58

I think reconciliation is possible, 99% of the time with infidelity it’s unsuccessful, and depends on the circumstances.

in your case, I doubt your wife really wants reconciliation, she just wants her wallet/security blanket back.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Safe to say no one in this subforum believes in R?, haha


From what I’ve seen R means a rugsweep not reconciliation. True reconciliation takes a huge amount of time and effort with the wayward pulling the heavier load. A lot just stay together and later wish they’d pulled the plug. Or later they get to go through more betrayal. The capability is there.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> I know how my daughter acted before and after this and it's markedly different. The above is just an example of things she never said before but is now saying.


So? You can’t fix your wife. Go ahead and be a martyr. It’s your life.


----------



## johndoe12299

Jamieboy said:


> Im sorry dude, this is a no win scenario, the only way you will ever get back together on an even footing, is if you divorce live your separate lives and come back together as different people. Preferably after you have dated many, many other ladies.


That is my plan going into this. I have no intentions of calling off the divorce. It will be made clear to her that we are still moving forward with divorce and if there is anything between us it will be as 'new' people, and I can't even guarantee I will want to be with that person when it's all said and done.


----------



## johndoe12299

Marc878 said:


> From what I’ve seen R means a rugsweep not reconciliation. True reconciliation takes a huge amount of time and effort with the wayward pulling the heavier load. A lot just stay together and later wish they’d pulled the plug. Or later they get to go through more betrayal. The capability is there.


Definitely. It's gotta start somewhere though, right? This meeting isn't about "oh let's try it again, move back in and rugsweep". She's signing a year lease elsewhere, D is still in waiting. I really just want to feel her out and see how much work she is willing to put in on herself.


----------



## Marc878

I got you. Most however will see what they want to see versus what it actually is. There will be signs if you pay attention. A lot in your situation don’t. They just want them back without thinking about what they’d be getting back. Instant relief for awhile.

Sorry they got caught versus true remorse means she’ll revert back. Hiding the truth. Resistance to what you want need. Blaming you for her actions. Are all signs she’s just looking for a soft spot to land. At your expense.

Nice guys get **** on all the time. This is your life. It’s gonna be what YOU make it.

No one can make you a chump except you.


----------



## Marc878

double post


----------



## Marc878

Just because you still love her doesn’t mean squat. A marriage takes 2. If you want a life


----------



## johndoe12299

I don't think I love her anymore. Do I miss her? Of course. But I have to ask myself what do I miss about her. And do i love the person that did everything these last 2 months to me? Of course not. 

My brain just does this thing where it compartmentalizes the good and the bad and I keep thinking about all the good things and pushing the bad to the side at times.


----------



## johndoe12299

Being out of the relationship has allowed me to more accurately reflect on it and come to the realization that it wasn't great at times and that I deserve better. It wasn't terrible, but there were some things I should have definitely not accepted and did moreso for "the sake of the family unit".


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> I don't think I love her anymore. Do I miss her? Of course. But I have to ask myself what do I miss about her. And do i love the person that did everything these last 2 months to me? Of course not.
> 
> My brain just does this thing where it compartmentalizes the good and the bad and I keep thinking about all the good things and pushing the bad to the side at times.


This is why no contact is so important. It helps clear the mind and gets you to reality. 

You only get one life. Stop biting at breadcrumbs.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Being out of the relationship has allowed me to more accurately reflect on it and come to the realization that it wasn't great at times and that I deserve better. It wasn't terrible, but there were some things I should have definitely not accepted and did moreso for "the sake of the family unit".


Many accept the unacceptable. You aren’t the only one that’s went down this path. That’s why she’s putting out feelers. She knows you and will attempt to capitalize on that. 

You seem to have high expectations but you know her too. 

IMO she’ll be looking for a rugsweep. 

Caution: marriage counselors and pastors are notorious for rugsweeping. I’ve seen a lot of waywards use this avenue to get back what they want. Pastors from what I’ve seen are especially bad at dealing with infidelity. Quote a few scriptures then put the onus on you to suck it up and save the all important marriage. You marriage didn’t mean a thing to her. She pissed all over it. So how could it be so important ?

I suspect if you’re smart about this you’ll know the score in 5 minutes.


----------



## seadoug105

johndoe12299 said:


> Being out of the relationship has allowed me to more accurately reflect on it and come to the realization that it wasn't great at times and that I deserve better. It wasn't terrible, but there were some things I should have definitely not accepted and did moreso for "the sake of the family unit".


That’s one thing the wayward never truly considers….

They are NOT the prize!

Oddly enough they are a trophy! Unfortunately enough for them they are just a participation trophy. Sure the AP often time puts them up on a Pedestal, polishing them, keeping them shiny…. and like almost all participation trophy’s they are eventually cast aside when the ”WINNER” grows out of that phase or finds something shinier.


She is finally realizing she had the prize and gave it up for the Whammy behind curtain #2


----------



## Marc878

seadoug105 said:


> That’s one thing the wayward never truly considers….
> 
> They are NOT the prize!
> 
> Oddly enough they are a trophy! Unfortunately enough for them they are just a participation trophy. Sure the AP often time puts them up on a Pedestal, polishing them, keeping them shiny…. and like almost all participation trophy’s they are eventually cast aside when the ”WINNER” grows out of that phase or finds something shinier.
> 
> 
> She is finally realizing she had the prize and gave it up for the Whammy behind curtain #2


Or she is just looking for a comfy place to land. Muffin I suspect thinks she’s the prize. Who wouldn’t want this princess?


----------



## Kaliber

johndoe12299 said:


> My brain just does this thing where it compartmentalizes the good and the bad and I keep thinking about all the good things and pushing the bad to the side at times.


@johndoe12299 that means you are not ready yet!
Why not take a different approach?
If I was in your shoes (I'll admit, I can never measure the pain you went or going through):
I would do this:
I will text her: *Sorry, I have to cancel the meeting, at the moment I'm not interested in such discussion* (you say 'at the moment' because your not closing the door completely and it seems that's what you want).
Doing that you will demonstrate couple of things:

You're shown strength, because you are not entertaining the idea in meeting her, and your not even curious in what she wants to say!
Your standards are now high!
You know your value and your worth!
Your not coming over as thirsty Beta!
You now know that you have options (you can go out now and start dating)!
You will not be taken for granted ever again
And the most important one: No more Mr. Nice Guy! Now you do what's in your best interest and what will bring you true happiness in your life, and when your happy, full of life and secure your daughter will be happy!



seadoug105 said:


> She is finally realizing she had the prize and gave it up for the Whammy behind curtain #2


@seadoug105 I really doubt she thinks @johndoe12299 is the prize, she was doing a full monkey branching on johndoe12299 but didn't go well beacuse she picked up the wrong guy, you see for the Monkey Branching to work her AP has to be the same level or higher than her current husband, she didn't plan it well!
I think she wants to get back and have a more solid ground and a better plan when she bails out the next time, it could take months or even years, but once she has the resources (better job, more money, the right guy ..Etc) she will monkey branch again and this time it will work!
Remember, she wasn't caught cheating, became remorseful, and stayed to fix the marriage, she actually moved out (A full monkey branching attempt), it was an exit affair, and exit affair means that her current husband has no chance entering her heart ever again as a lover and she will never have a burning desire for him, unless @johndoe12299 becomes the next Jeff Bezos!

If you want to see a proper monkey branching read @Smilieman story, his wife left 10 years ago, the monkey branching attempt didn't work out and came back after 9 months, he took her back (big mistake and he is paying the full price now for being a Nice Guy). She stayed for another 10 years!!
But this time she planed it right, got her finance sorted and the AP ready, then she sent a text to her husband (Smilieman) that she has feeling for another man and she is not coming back home, she never came home again only after a couple of weeks just to pick up her things!
Just like that, his world flipped upside down in one text, they were together for 19 years, she filed for divorce (monkey branching attempt succeeded)!

@johndoe12299, we are trying to help you move on, you are putting *yourself*, your *future* and your *mental health* in danger, because your wife is not your typical cheater!
You really need to think further than what you are doing now, you need to think years ahead, @Smilieman story is an example when you take back a woman who attempted to monkey branch but failed!
You are in your prime age now, you have so many options and possibilities, don't throw that away, your wife is not the typical cheater who wanted fun on the side but got caught and never intended to leave, she actually dumped you and your daughter and moved out for someone else, but the branch wasn't solid enough to swing, she is more dangerous than your typical cheater!
Read about exit affairs (monkey branching), these cheaters are very dangerous, watch out!


----------



## Jamieboy

Kaliber said:


> @johndoe12299 that means you are not ready yet!
> Why not take a different approach?
> If I was in your shoes (I'll admit, I can never measure the pain you went or going through):
> I would do this:
> I will text her: *Sorry, I have to cancel the meeting, at the moment I'm not interested in such discussion* (you say 'at the moment' because your not closing the door completely and it seems that's what you want).
> Doing that you will demonstrate couple of things:
> 
> You're shown strength, because you are not entertaining the idea in meeting her, and your not even curious in what she wants to say!
> Your standards are now high!
> You know your value and your worth!
> Your not coming over as thirsty Beta!
> You now know that you have options (you can go out now and start dating)!
> You will not be taken for granted ever again
> And the most important one: No more Mr. Nice Guy! Now you do what's in your best interest and what will bring you true happiness in your life, and when your happy, full of life and secure your daughter will be happy!
> 
> @seadoug105 I really doubt she thinks @johndoe12299 is the prize, she was doing a full monkey branching on johndoe12299 but didn't go well beacuse she picked up the wrong guy, you see for the Monkey Branching to work her AP has to be the same level or higher than her current husband, she didn't plan it well!
> I think she wants to get back and have a more solid ground and a better plan when she bails out the next time, it could take months or even years, but once she has the resources (better job, more money, the right guy ..Etc) she will monkey branch again and this time it will work!
> Remember, she wasn't caught cheating, became remorseful, and stayed to fix the marriage, she actually moved out (A full monkey branching attempt), it was an exit affair, and exit affair means that her current husband has no chance entering her heart ever again as a lover and she will never have a burning desire for him, unless @johndoe12299 becomes the next Jeff Bezos!
> 
> If you want to see a proper monkey branching read @Smilieman story, his wife left 10 years ago, the monkey branching attempt didn't work out and came back after 9 months, he took her back (big mistake and he is paying the full price now big time). She stayed for another 10 years!!
> But this time she planed it right, got her finance sorted and sent a text to her husband (Smilieman) that she has feeling for another man and she is not coming back home, she never came home again only after a couple of weeks just to pick up her things!
> Just like that, his world flipped upside down in one text, they were together for 19 years, she filed for divorce (monkey branching attempt succeeded)!
> 
> @johndoe12299, we are trying to help you move on, you are putting yourself and future in danger, because your wife is not your typical cheater!
> You really need to think further than what you are doing now, you need to think years ahead, @Smilieman story is an example when you take back a woman who attempted to monkey branch but failed and now he is a mess!
> You are in your prime age now, you have so many options and possibilities, don't throw that away, your wife is not the typical cheater who wanted fun on the side but got caught and never intended to leave, she actually dumped you and your daughter and moved out for someone else, but the branch wasn't solid enough to swing, she is more dangerous than your typical cheater!
> Read about exit affairs (monkey branching), these cheaters are very dangerous, watch out!


Dudes making a lot of sense, he may be right, he may be wrong, but are you willing to take that gamble with your best years?


----------



## johndoe12299

Zedd said:


> Absolutely untrue. However, it starts with her being 100% forthcoming and honest about everything that happened. It has to include not only the things she doesn't want you to know, but more importantly, all of the things you DON'T want to know.
> 
> The only way it works is if she metaphorically strips herself down to nothing so there's nowhere left to hide anything and nothing left to hide.
> 
> Do you think she's prepared to do that? Without it, it'll fail.


100% agree. That's really my intnetion if I decide to go through with this conversation. I want her to bare herself and reveal everything. If she slips up and tells me a lie, half truth, or even if i get the feeling something is off; it's done. This ist just more of an information gathering event and a way for me to gauge where she is.


----------



## johndoe12299

Kaliber said:


> @johndoe12299 that means you are not ready yet!
> Why not take a different approach?
> If I was in your shoes (I'll admit, I can never measure the pain you went or going through):
> I would do this:
> I will text her: *Sorry, I have to cancel the meeting, at the moment I'm not interested in such discussion* (you say 'at the moment' because your not closing the door completely and it seems that's what you want).
> Doing that you will demonstrate couple of things:
> 
> You're shown strength, because you are not entertaining the idea in meeting her, and your not even curious in what she wants to say!
> Your standards are now high!
> You know your value and your worth!
> Your not coming over as thirsty Beta!
> You now know that you have options (you can go out now and start dating)!
> You will not be taken for granted ever again
> And the most important one: No more Mr. Nice Guy! Now you do what's in your best interest and what will bring you true happiness in your life, and when your happy, full of life and secure your daughter will be happy!
> 
> @seadoug105 I really doubt she thinks @johndoe12299 is the prize, she was doing a full monkey branching on johndoe12299 but didn't go well beacuse she picked up the wrong guy, you see for the Monkey Branching to work her AP has to be the same level or higher than her current husband, she didn't plan it well!
> I think she wants to get back and have a more solid ground and a better plan when she bails out the next time, it could take months or even years, but once she has the resources (better job, more money, the right guy ..Etc) she will monkey branch again and this time it will work!
> Remember, she wasn't caught cheating, became remorseful, and stayed to fix the marriage, she actually moved out (A full monkey branching attempt), it was an exit affair, and exit affair means that her current husband has no chance entering her heart ever again as a lover and she will never have a burning desire for him, unless @johndoe12299 becomes the next Jeff Bezos!
> 
> If you want to see a proper monkey branching read @Smilieman story, his wife left 10 years ago, the monkey branching attempt didn't work out and came back after 9 months, he took her back (big mistake and he is paying the full price now for being a Nice Guy). She stayed for another 10 years!!
> But this time she planed it right, got her finance sorted and the AP ready, then she sent a text to her husband (Smilieman) that she has feeling for another man and she is not coming back home, she never came home again only after a couple of weeks just to pick up her things!
> Just like that, his world flipped upside down in one text, they were together for 19 years, she filed for divorce (monkey branching attempt succeeded)!
> 
> @johndoe12299, we are trying to help you move on, you are putting *yourself*, your *future* and your *mental health* in danger, because your wife is not your typical cheater!
> You really need to think further than what you are doing now, you need to think years ahead, @Smilieman story is an example when you take back a woman who attempted to monkey branch but failed!
> You are in your prime age now, you have so many options and possibilities, don't throw that away, your wife is not the typical cheater who wanted fun on the side but got caught and never intended to leave, she actually dumped you and your daughter and moved out for someone else, but the branch wasn't solid enough to swing, she is more dangerous than your typical cheater!
> Read about exit affairs (monkey branching), these cheaters are very dangerous, watch out!


Thanks @Kaliber you've had some thoughtful posts. I'm just caught up on what type of affair this was. I went through all the phone records dating back months before she left, and not a single one had the guy's number. She didn't call him until she was out of the house. I spoke to her sister and the sister said my wife mentioned a "cute guy at work" while she was staying ather sister's the first couple nights. I found out from AP girlfriend that she called the guy to have hime help her find a place.

So, i'm not sure if this was a full on monkey branch. It doesn't seem like it based off phone/text records; unless she was communicating via other methods before she left, but her phone was always unlocked and i was on it often so i don't htink it's likely. Could have been a workplace thing, though... It seems like it was more of a convenience thing that fell into her lap after he helped her find a place to stay. Who knows though; i'll probably never get the truth from her about that.


----------



## Evinrude58

johndoe12299 said:


> 100% agree. That's really my intnetion if I decide to go through with this conversation. I want her to bare herself and reveal everything. If *she slips up and tells me a lie, half truth, o*r even if i get the feeling something is off; it's done. This ist just more of an information gathering event and a way for me to gauge where she is.


Let me save you the suspense. She’s gonna lie her ass off. Come on JD,
Just cut it loose.


----------



## Kaliber

johndoe12299 said:


> 100% agree. That's really my intnetion if I decide to go through with this conversation. I want her to bare herself and reveal everything. If she slips up and tells me a lie, half truth, or even if i get the feeling something is off; it's done. This ist just more of an information gathering event and a way for me to gauge where she is.


You know @johndoe12299 at this point if she tells you any lie you wouldn't have the means to verify it, there is no way for you to know if it's half truth, full truth or even a complete lie!
For example, she can say she only slept with the AP two times (the truth maybe 30 times), how would you verify that?
It's going to be an impossible task to verify anything she says!
Asking her to reveal everything is not realistic since you have no way to confirm it!
That's why I think you will feel worse and more frustrated after the meeting!


----------



## 3Xnocharm

She may not have called him on her phone but there are all kinds of apps you can use to call and text. Or there could be a burner phone. Just goes to show the depths of the secrecy and deception. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jlg07

johndoe12299 said:


> e mentioned a "cute guy at work"


She could leave her phone open because she could talk to him ALL DAY LONG at work with you none the wiser.
She didn't NEED to phone contact him.


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## manowar

View this as a business meeting. Stay centered. Keep the meeting in your frame. Do not get emotional. This is key. There cant be I missed you or any of that. Act like you don't give a sh+t at this point. When she cries don't fall for it. The tears will be turned on when she realizes your not going back to the way things used to be. Her way. Don't be swayed by the tears. They are fake. Women can do this and they do it all the time. React indifferently to tears. Don't even hand her a napkin. Just wait patiently for the show to end.

Let her know your not her Plan B. Let her know that if you knew (or even thought she could) do something like this you would have never married her. "My wife doesn't fk other guys".. Be clear! Most of all let her know you've got options. Women who think their guy doesn't have options is a control boost and an attraction killer at the same time for her. That's all you have to say about options. "hey I have options". end of topic. She'll know what that means. Women communicate in something called subcommunication. It's like womanese or another language they devised.

You are in the position of power because it looks like she needs you (more). But you don't need her. She's turned into a pain-in-the-ass accessory. Your real power is in being able to walk away. Men who women can not control are way more attractive to them. This is one of the big reasons so many nice guys end up here.

One other thing --- good luck.


----------



## johndoe12299

Thanks everyone. She texted earlier today that she has to go look at her rent house tomorrow during the time the talk was scheduled for...lol. I told her OK and that i will cancel the babysitter. Nothing else and she didn't respond back about it. I guess she is playing a game where she wants me to ask her to meet at a different time? Make it look like I'm the one pushing for it? Who knows, it's Pretty laughable at this point. Admittedly, laughable from my end too, ha. 

On the plus side, i went play a poker game tonight that i haven't played since pre covid and won $1400 so that's nice...


----------



## Openminded

Maybe it was just a temporary break with her bf — who knows. She certainly isn’t likely to tell you the truth about what’s going on. That wouldn’t benefit her.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Thanks everyone. She texted earlier today that she has to go look at her rent house tomorrow during the time the talk was scheduled for...lol. I told her OK and that i will cancel the babysitter. Nothing else and she didn't respond back about it. I guess she is playing a game where she wants me to ask her to meet at a different time? Make it look like I'm the one pushing for it? Who knows, it's Pretty laughable at this point. Admittedly, laughable from my end too, ha.
> 
> On the plus side, i went play a poker game tonight that i haven't played since pre covid and won $1400 so that's nice...


She threw out a breadcrumb just to see if you were still available. That’s all she wanted. Until you establish no contact you’ll be under her control. Learn to ignore (kids or D only) or you’ll keep yourself in this. Hopium habits are hard to break.


----------



## johndoe12299

She's mad mad. I have to work storm restoration for Hurricane Ida and she wanted to stay with the kids at my house since she feels safer there. i told her no because she doesn't live here. Came pick up the kids this morning and didn't say a word to me, ha. Everything is all good as long as she gets her way/what she wants. It's all so clear now. Simply wants all the comfort i can provide but wants to live her own life. 

It's like she still hasn't grasped it yet. Once divorce is finalized does she think she would stay at my house in a situation like this? Well, why would she now? Of course she tried to use the safety of the kids as manipulation. I just told her she's responsbile for their safety while she has custody.


----------



## Evinrude58

johndoe12299 said:


> She's mad mad. I have to work storm restoration for Hurricane Ida and she wanted to stay with the kids at my house since she feels safer there. i told her no because she doesn't live here. Came pick up the kids this morning and didn't say a word to me, ha. Everything is all good as long as she gets her way/what she wants. It's all so clear now. Simply wants all the comfort i can provide but wants to live her own life.
> 
> It's like she still hasn't grasped it yet. Once divorce is finalized does she think she would stay at my house in a situation like this? Well, why would she now? Of course she tried to use the safety of the kids as manipulation. I just told her she's responsbile for their safety while she has custody.


Nice work layin some boundaries. 
Keep it up and you’ll be free if her tentacles.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Agree, good job!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> She's mad mad. I have to work storm restoration for Hurricane Ida and she wanted to stay with the kids at my house since she feels safer there. i told her no because she doesn't live here. Came pick up the kids this morning and didn't say a word to me, ha. Everything is all good as long as she gets her way/what she wants. It's all so clear now. Simply wants all the comfort i can provide but wants to live her own life.
> 
> It's like she still hasn't grasped it yet. Once divorce is finalized does she think she would stay at my house in a situation like this? Well, why would she now? Of course she tried to use the safety of the kids as manipulation. I just told her she's responsbile for their safety while she has custody.


Good job.
You will get like most the ‘let’s be friends’. This is all for her not you. Probably more of ‘do it for the kids’ even though she never gave a second thought about the kids as she was destroying the marriage and family. A form of cake eating. She’ll eat cake as long as you’re willing to feed it to her.

She hadn’t grasped it yet because this is the first time you stood your ground.


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## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> She's mad mad. I have to work storm restoration for Hurricane Ida and she wanted to stay with the kids at my house since she feels safer there. i told her no because she doesn't live here. Came pick up the kids this morning and didn't say a word to me, ha. Everything is all good as long as she gets her way/what she wants. It's all so clear now. Simply wants all the comfort i can provide but wants to live her own life.
> 
> It's like she still hasn't grasped it yet. Once divorce is finalized does she think she would stay at my house in a situation like this? Well, why would she now? Of course she tried to use the safety of the kids as manipulation. I just told her she's responsbile for their safety while she has custody.


It’s better for her to be pissed off versus you getting pissed on 👏👏👏👏


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## Openminded

johndoe12299 said:


> She's mad mad. I have to work storm restoration for Hurricane Ida and she wanted to stay with the kids at my house since she feels safer there. i told her no because she doesn't live here. Came pick up the kids this morning and didn't say a word to me, ha. Everything is all good as long as she gets her way/what she wants. It's all so clear now. Simply wants all the comfort i can provide but wants to live her own life.
> 
> It's like she still hasn't grasped it yet. Once divorce is finalized does she think she would stay at my house in a situation like this? Well, why would she now? Of course she tried to use the safety of the kids as manipulation. I just told her she's responsbile for their safety while she has custody.


The answer is yes, she does think that. The number of women who feel they can continue to use their exH for whatever they want is ridiculous. Good on you for telling her no (keep it up).


----------



## Marc878

I know 3 who run a tight no contact. All 3 say it’s the best thing they’d done. 2 have young kids in grade schools.
Keep everything separate. Holidays, birthdays, etc.
Never go into her home or allow her in yours.
Limit communication to text, email, kids or D only. Ignore everything else.
Pickups drop offs should take 2 minutes. Be civil but keep your distance.
It’s ok to take the children xtra time if she needs a favor. Expect the same.


----------



## Marc878

Definition of friend - loyal, honest, trustworthy. Muffin is not your friend.
You have to go your own way. Muffin fired you. It’s smart to stay fired.😆
Learn to ignore. You’ll move on quickly and realize you didn’t lose much plus it’ll put you in great shape for your future.

Strength is an attractive trait to have.


----------



## johndoe12299

It does feel quite empowering to simply say "no" because we all know that's hard for 'nice guys'.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> It does feel quite empowering to simply say "no" because we all know that's hard for 'nice guys'.


Just the beginning of the new you. You feel good because you realize for maybe the first time you are in control. You may have wanted your x but you never needed her. You don’t need anyone. You can do this.


----------



## mickybill

Good luck with Ida. 
And too bad that her choices has but your family in this position during a storm...let her know that.


----------



## johndoe12299

mickybill said:


> Good luck with Ida.
> And too bad that her choices has but your family in this position during a storm...let her know that.


Thank you. Long road to ahead. I work for electric utility so it's going to be long hours for the next month or two.


----------



## mickybill

johndoe12299 said:


> Thank you. Long road to ahead. I work for electric utility so it's going to be long hours for the next month or two.


I guess no good time for a hurricane or marriage problems...I hope that she doesn't think that since you will be working double shifts and not home for her she doesn't start wandering.
Be careful out there!


----------



## Kaliber

@johndoe12299 good luck and be careful bro!


----------



## manowar

johndoe12299 said:


> Simply wants all the comfort i can provide but wants to live her own life.


Thats not unusual. Never allow this sh+t. this is cucksville where she might even assume its ok to go out on dates. She may see you as the emotional tampon. You know her position. yes, it's demented thinking but what do you expect. Don't entertain it. No Contact is the path as just about everyone else suggested.


----------



## johndoe12299

I was foolish to ever think it would be "amicable". There is no amicable with this person unless she's having her cake. The minute she gets a bit of pushback she's in total ***** mode and not saying a word to me at the kid's pickup. Which is fine. But, funny and eye opening.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> I was foolish to ever think it would be "amicable". There is no amicable with this person unless she's having her cake. The minute she gets a bit of pushback she's in total *** mode and not saying a word to me at the kid's pickup. Which is fine. But, funny and eye opening.


It’s an easier no contact that way which is what you need. Enjoy it !!! You are seeing the real her. Poor muffin.


----------



## manowar

johndoe12299 said:


> I was foolish to ever think it would be "amicable". There is no amicable with this person unless she's having her cake. The minute she gets a bit of pushback she's in total *** mode and not saying a word to me at the kid's pickup. Which is fine. But, funny and eye opening.



of course. because she's not running over you anymore. You've been woke and that's dangerous. She knows that you've changed, and she's not used to pushback. You are responsible for only the *bare minimum*. Plus she apparently lives in an alternate universe. She may possibly have been aiming to friendzone you. Honestly, I thought she going to come back with her tail between her legs based on her lack of options. She still may in the end. Already covered above.


----------



## Zedd

johndoe12299 said:


> I was foolish to ever think it would be "amicable". There is no amicable with this person unless she's having her cake. The minute she gets a bit of pushback she's in total *** mode and not saying a word to me at the kid's pickup. Which is fine. But, funny and eye opening.


well, yes and no. You can get there. It just takes time. 

When I got divorced, I had to go no contact for a while. Didn't talk, did all the swaps coming in/out of school or soccer/hockey. She drops off, I pick up, etc. I didn't talk to her for almost a year.

Then, I decided I didn't like the darkness either. It was better when we talked. It was all about boundaries. She knew if she crossed them, I'd go dark again, and she hated that way more than if I was mad and yelled at her. It was foundational for us setting up a good co-parenting relationship. Much much better for me, for her, for the kids when we have a relationship. I love what we have now, but without her knowing where the lines were, we'd have never gotten there.


----------



## johndoe12299

Zedd said:


> well, yes and no. You can get there. It just takes time.
> 
> When I got divorced, I had to go no contact for a while. Didn't talk, did all the swaps coming in/out of school or soccer/hockey. She drops off, I pick up, etc. I didn't talk to her for almost a year.
> 
> Then, I decided I didn't like the darkness either. It was better when we talked. It was all about boundaries. She knew if she crossed them, I'd go dark again, and she hated that way more than if I was mad and yelled at her. It was foundational for us setting up a good co-parenting relationship. Much much better for me, for her, for the kids when we have a relationship. I love what we have now, but without her knowing where the lines were, we'd have never gotten there.


what was it about the darkness you didn't like? And what kind of boundaries are set now?


----------



## Zedd

johndoe12299 said:


> what was it about the darkness you didn't like? And what kind of boundaries are set now?


Mostly, I missed my friend. I didn't miss my wife, but I missed my friend. We have an amazing child together. I didn't like that we didn't spend time sitting together laughing at him while he learned how to skate backward at hockey. It was only her at practice, or me. Simple stuff like that, we weren't getting to share together. I bothered me a lot. Turns out, she hated that bit more than I did.

For quite a while, I just couldn't talk to her because any time we tried to chat about something real, it would always turn into an apology, a justification, whatever, for what happened with some passive aggressive hope that things would be better and we'd maybe give it another try. I didn't want that.

So, that was kind of my line, and her adherance to that sort of happened at once and organically. There was a girl that pursued me out of no where after ExW and I were divorced/separated like 15 months total. I said no to her like 3 times. It was the daughter of my ExW's best friend at work (both teachers). It's not quite as weird as it seems. Wife's work friend was 15 years older than her. My ExW was 5 years older than me, new girl was 4 years younger than me. Anyway, I kept saying no, then my wife, who knew about it, finally pulled me aside and more or less said "give her a shot. You know she's a good person." It was a long conversation, and at the end, she followed up with how she enjoyed it and missed it. So, by telling me it was ok, she had more or less drawn the line behind "us", and was more friend again, than partner who was trying to get back into my life.

It was that moment that told me she was ready to move on to a new form of "us". And there will always be an us, because we share a kid. We had to have a lot of conversations about stuff that happened that led us to divorce after that moment, but she got to say her piece, I got to say mine, and it was all entirely without the undertone of "maybe we can work something out." Ended up being really good, very little "it's your fault that..." and a lot more of "I wish I hadn't..." from both of us.


----------



## Marc878

From what I’ve seen this is dependent on the parties involved.
Keep in mind definition of friend = loyal, honest, trustworthy.
When infidelity is involved it can definitely change dynamics.
I know 2 who employ a strict no contact even a few years later.
The amount of damage done with infidelity is at best complicated. In these situations they moved on found other partners. One remarried and the other is engaged. Both traded up.

For these two they do not want an x in the mix. Everything is kept separate, communication is text/email, one uses court email. The kids have adjusted. Pickups/drop offs are just a few minutes.

Everything is civil in case of scheduling issues and both seem to get along in that respect.

It really depends on the parties involved and what you want your life to be.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

johndoe12299 said:


> Well this happened quicker than I thought. She texted yesterday wanting to "talk" about what "us getting back together would require and what it would look like"...


Be very scared......be very 😱


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

johndoe12299 said:


> Safe to say no one in this subforum believes in R?, haha


I am one that is on five plus years of r, however, I laid down the law and the conditions. You are “plan b” for her. She has found out it’s not all rainbows and unicorns. Be on guard.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

johndoe12299 said:


> She's mad mad. I have to work storm restoration for Hurricane Ida and she wanted to stay with the kids at my house since she feels safer there. i told her no because she doesn't live here. Came pick up the kids this morning and didn't say a word to me, ha. Everything is all good as long as she gets her way/what she wants. It's all so clear now. Simply wants all the comfort i can provide but wants to live her own life.
> 
> It's like she still hasn't grasped it yet. Once divorce is finalized does she think she would stay at my house in a situation like this? Well, why would she now? Of course she tried to use the safety of the kids as manipulation. I just told her she's responsbile for their safety while she has custody.


And you were thinking of reconciling with a proven liar and manipulative woman? Stay smart.


----------



## johndoe12299

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> And you were thinking of reconciling with a proven liar and manipulative woman? Stay smart.


I know. You're right. I just keep compartmentalizing and thinking of the "good". 10 years of being with a sexual abuse victim with depression issues has it hard to break the chain of wanting to help/fix/console her.


----------



## johndoe12299

Minor update:

Good news from the lawyer. He told me that any debts brought into the marriage(her student debt) that was paid off with community funds can be claimed when assets are split at the end. I have to file a reimbursement agreement. Huge news!

Also, you all might get a kick out of this. The AP gf/exgf (i have no idea if she took him back) messaged me the other day
"So what i know from **** is there was never a thing. I kind of spoke with him about it after you messaged and he said there was never anything with her and they are just friends."


I mean.................seriously? I didn't even respond. I could have told her my wife admitted to an affair(i never got any details of the extent, didn't care/ask) and i could have shown her the texts of my wife apologizing for "betrayal" or my wife on tape admitting to having feelings for him. But, none of that matters. This girl is either just choosing to live in denial, really naive and/or dumb, or just doesn't care either b/c she isn't with him anymore. 

Just thought ya'll would get a good laugh out of that.


----------



## Sfort

johndoe12299 said:


> Just thought ya'll would get a good laugh out of that.


It's actually not funny for those of us who have been on the receiving end of that sort of nonsense. But we get your point.


----------



## Evinrude58

One day, you won’t even notice when your ex is somehow brought up in conversation and you won’t care. Took me about 2 years. Hopefully it’s sooner for you.


----------



## Affaircare

johndoe12299 said:


> "So what i know from **** is there was never a thing. I kind of spoke with him about it after you messaged and he said there was never anything with her and they are just friends."


Here, let me run that through the BS Translator for ya:

"So I asked the person who has been lying to my face for the past several months, and the liar told me the truth! And I believe him! The liar said there was never a thing. What's 'a thing'? Is that flirting? Is that feelings? Is that a sexual relationship? Who knows, because the liar says there wasn't one! I 'kind of' spoke to him about it, because I was 'kind of' afraid of what the answer would be, so I asked in a way that made it easy for him to lie to me, and I decided to believe the lie rather than face the possibility of the truth. 'He said'...and we know that his word is as trustworthy as ... well wait a minute, it's not worthy of trust at all. But still! I believe! 'They are just friends'--huh, that's in the present tense. That means they STILL ARE, but you know, it's not an affair, it's just a friendship. They enjoy each other's company. They laugh at each other's jokes. They work together and have that in common. They text and call all day every day, and yeah...that's what friends do! So stop bugging me with the truth. My head is firmly planted right here in the sand."


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

johndoe12299 said:


> I know. You're right. I just keep compartmentalizing and thinking of the "good". 10 years of being with a sexual abuse victim with depression issues has it hard to break the chain of wanting to help/fix/console her.


She has to want to fix herself. You cannot fix it for her. She has to take control and responsibility. I know it is hard for you, but you are going to have to be firm and strong. I think you can do it. You are stonger than you realize. Remember that.


----------



## manowar

johndoe12299 said:


> He told me that any debts brought into the marriage(her student debt) that was paid off with community funds can be claimed when assets are split at the end. I have to file a reimbursement agreement. Huge news!


that is big. great to hear. 



johndoe12299 said:


> I know. You're right. I just keep compartmentalizing and thinking of the "good". 10 years of being with a sexual abuse victim with depression issues has it hard to break the chain of wanting to help/fix/console her.


She's LSE brother. (low self-esteem). They are dangerous and terrible for LTR. Next on your agenda is one who is HSE. Only HSE women for LTR. this is the most important factor along with how the woman treats you when a man decides to relinquish his commitment. learn to tell the difference between LSE/HSE women. LSE women are often fix-ups.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> I know. You're right. I just keep compartmentalizing and thinking of the "good". 10 years of being with a sexual abuse victim with depression issues has it hard to break the chain of wanting to help/fix/console her.


That’s hopium raisin it’s head. It will just keep you in limbo. Your brain knows the truth. Use it.


----------



## johndoe12299

i can't just flip a switch! i wish it were that easy


----------



## ABHale

It takes time man. Just keep moving forward.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Left foot right foot breathe repeat....you are going to be okay.


----------



## Evinrude58

johndoe12299 said:


> i can't just flip a switch! i wish it were that easy


Your emotions will take time to catch up with your logic. Pain will make you go against what you know one your heart is right and you know in your head is logical. Whenever you feel that urge welling up inside you to call her, do not give in to that. It will set you backward and just hurt you longer. You know she is a cheater, everything she does is self serving, and unless you had something kind of use to her, she’d not have a word for you. There is nothing you could do to ever have a fulfilling relationship with this person.

there are a LOT of people in the world that are users. This woman is one of plenty. There are millions of her out there. Get free if her and look for the rare lady that brings you happiness rather than pain.


----------



## johndoe12299

I guess my biggest struggle is finding it hard to believe she is that person...despite the overwhelming evidence. I still don't know if she intentionally left me to hook up with this guy. Not that it really makes a difference...i keep thinking she was having a nervous breakdown and needed some time away, and this guy swooped in when he saw an easy opportunity. But again, whether it was premeditated or not doesn't matter. She was hooking up/talking to him while not sleeping at the house with her kids


----------



## Evinrude58

Your mind is looking desperately for any sliver of reason that would explain away the truth of who she is and give you an out. Give you a reason to forgive her. I’ve been there.
You’ve got two choices: Just accept she’s what she has shown herself to be beyond any doubt, and move on in spite of your pain, or you can keep looking for a glimmer of decency in her—- what you’ll find is that she’s far, far worse than you can believe now. She will just keep on hurting you and leave you a shell of your former self for years.

I wish your future self could come back in time now and tell you what will happen if you give her further chances to betray you. You probably wouldn’t believe you.

some people just aren’t worth whAt you invested in them. You just have to let her go. The person you once knew—-that person never existed.


----------



## johndoe12299

Another rough morning. Today was my daughter's birthday. 5yo. I went over stbx house to drop off a present to her. There was a fun jump so i went jump with my 2 kids for 15minutes. Daughter loved it. Then i left.

balled like a baby on the way home. Nothing to do with stbx; just not beign able to spend the day with my kid on her own birthday is so ****ty. I'll make it up to her next week though.


Also, this afternoon my stbx texts "i have some odd jobs i need done around here asap, i can pay you to do them if youre interested"

I was completely flabbergasted. After everything that's happened, expecially the last couple weeks, everything she's done to our family, me telling her twice i'm either her husband or the kid's dad, nothing in between...she has the nerve to ask me to go do some handyman work at her new house?

I didn't even respond. I'm still in shock. She has to be the least self aware person out there right now. Does she think that little of me?


----------



## johndoe12299

Evinrude58 said:


> Your mind is looking desperately for any sliver of reason that would explain away the truth of who she is and give you an out. Give you a reason to forgive her. I’ve been there.
> You’ve got two choices: Just accept she’s what she has shown herself to be beyond any doubt, and move on in spite of your pain, or you can keep looking for a glimmer of decency in her—- what you’ll find is that she’s far, far worse than you can believe now. She will just keep on hurting you and leave you a shell of your former self for years.
> 
> I wish your future self could come back in time now and tell you what will happen if you give her further chances to betray you. You probably wouldn’t believe you.
> 
> some people just aren’t worth whAt you invested in them. You just have to let her go. The person you once knew—-that person never existed.


good post evinrude


----------



## Openminded

Yes, she absolutely does think that little of you. And the sooner you accept that — really accept it — the better off you’ll be.


----------



## johndoe12299

I guess i'm just wondering where it comes from. How can so much disrespect root just from being a nice guy? That's what I think about the most. I'm more interested in the psychology of it all.

Part of me thinks she thinks I'm ok with everything b/c i haven't told her at all what i really feel about the entire situation so i guess she's thinking I'm not in the least bit upset at her? So she thinks i won't mind helping?


----------



## Openminded

I think you’re giving her too much credit about caring how you might feel. It’s all about her.

Nice guys are givers and they get taken advantage of by users. All.The.Time.


----------



## johndoe12299

Very true. That's what i need to come to terms with. Everything she says the last few months is pretty much all about her, making her feel better. When i think of it she literally hasn't asked me a single question about me, my family(who she was very close to) work etc...Thanks for bringing that tot he forefront!


----------



## Openminded

Keep reminding yourself of it. Always. Because otherwise you forget and start remembering other stuff and not who she really is.


----------



## Evinrude58

Things she will never ask you:

what can I do to make the divorce easier?
Would you want to skip next months child support payment? 

could I bring you dinner so you don’t have to cook for the kids tomorrow? They said you were working late.


----------



## CrAzYdOgLaDy

johndoe12299 said:


> I guess my biggest struggle is finding it hard to believe she is that person...despite the overwhelming evidence. I still don't know if she intentionally left me to hook up with this guy. Not that it really makes a difference...i keep thinking she was having a nervous breakdown and needed some time away, and this guy swooped in when he saw an easy opportunity. But again, whether it was premeditated or not doesn't matter. She was hooking up/talking to him while not sleeping at the house with her kids


I had a nervous breakdown and the last thing on my mind was jumping in bed/meeting another man. That's a bad excuse. I couldn't even look after myself for months while recovering. 

When you walk through a storm
Hold your head up high
And don't be afraid of the dark


YNWA


----------



## CrAzYdOgLaDy

johndoe12299 said:


> Another rough morning. Today was my daughter's birthday. 5yo. I went over stbx house to drop off a present to her. There was a fun jump so i went jump with my 2 kids for 15minutes. Daughter loved it. Then i left.
> 
> balled like a baby on the way home. Nothing to do with stbx; just not beign able to spend the day with my kid on her own birthday is so ****ty. I'll make it up to her next week though.
> 
> 
> Also, this afternoon my stbx texts "i have some odd jobs i need done around here asap, i can pay you to do them if youre interested"
> 
> I was completely flabbergasted. After everything that's happened, expecially the last couple weeks, everything she's done to our family, me telling her twice i'm either her husband or the kid's dad, nothing in between...she has the nerve to ask me to go do some handyman work at her new house?
> 
> I didn't even respond. I'm still in shock. She has to be the least self aware person out there right now. Does she think that little of me?


You can do a special birthday party for your daughter at your place, when you next have her. Tell her she gets to celebrate her birthday twice. Set balloons and birthday banners up for her. Get a birthday cake, do her favourite party food, lots of presents and invite loved ones over, maybe some of your daughters friends if allowed, due to coronavirus. Make it a special day for her. Many kids come from broken homes and I remember my friends when younger loved having 2 seperate birthday parties in parents homes. Get her a lovely party dress or her favourite Disney character, Princess etc. 

When you walk through a storm
Hold your head up high
And don't be afraid of the dark


YNWA


----------



## johndoe12299

oh yeah. she's already on board with the 2 party idea lol. She can't wait for her 2nd party. She's so sweet. I got a haircut last night and when i showed up today she's like "daddy, you went to the hair salon? your hair is gone, but it looks good!"...meanwhile my wife is right there and didn't say anything. Damnit i love that girl!


----------



## 3Xnocharm

johndoe12299 said:


> Also, this afternoon my stbx texts "i have some odd jobs i need done around here asap, i can pay you to do them if youre interested"
> 
> I was completely flabbergasted. After everything that's happened, expecially the last couple weeks, everything she's done to our family, me telling her twice i'm either her husband or the kid's dad, nothing in between...she has the nerve to ask me to go do some handyman work at her new house?
> 
> I didn't even respond. I'm still in shock. She has to be the least self aware person out there right now. Does she think that little of me?


You’d be stunned at the number of men going through this who DO go over and do the odd jobs and repairs etc for their horrible stbx or ex. Kiss their ass big time. I don’t get it, I’m I’m so glad to see you didn’t take that bait!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Marc878

A good friend of mines wife dumped him and his kids for her boss. She only came back and started spending time with the kids because of the child support. He told me his biggest issue was realizing she was nothing but a typical cheater. Nothing special about her at all. He said cutting off contact was the best thing he had done.

You can get where you need to be if you drop the hopium pipe. All that does is keep you bound.


----------



## CrAzYdOgLaDy

johndoe12299 said:


> oh yeah. she's already on board with the 2 party idea lol. She can't wait for her 2nd party. She's so sweet. I got a haircut last night and when i showed up today she's like "daddy, you went to the hair salon? your hair is gone, but it looks good!"...meanwhile my wife is right there and didn't say anything. Damnit i love that girl!


Awww bless her. She loves her daddy so much. Bet the ex was raging inside haha. Hope her birthday party with your gang goes well. Have lots of fun. Are you doing any kind of theme for her party? 

When you walk through a storm
Hold your head up high
And don't be afraid of the dark


YNWA


----------



## johndoe12299

she's all about unicorns, as is 99% of kids that age. So i'm sure it'll be centered around that. Yeah, @Marc878 that's the hardest. Just coming to that realization. It's hard because there is no hisotry of it in 10 years(that i'm remotely aware of). Like, trust on both our ends was 150%. Never an issue. None of her stuff was ever locked, no history of it. Nothing. That's what's hard to wrap my head around. The oxytocin struggle is real i suppose


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Another rough morning. Today was my daughter's birthday. 5yo. I went over stbx house to drop off a present to her. There was a fun jump so i went jump with my 2 kids for 15minutes. Daughter loved it. Then i left.
> 
> balled like a baby on the way home. Nothing to do with stbx; just not beign able to spend the day with my kid on her own birthday is so ****ty. I'll make it up to her next week though.
> 
> 
> Also, this afternoon my stbx texts "i have some odd jobs i need done around here asap, i can pay you to do them if youre interested"
> 
> I was completely flabbergasted. After everything that's happened, expecially the last couple weeks, everything she's done to our family, me telling her twice i'm either her husband or the kid's dad, nothing in between...she has the nerve to ask me to go do some handyman work at her new house?
> 
> I didn't even respond. I'm still in shock. She has to be the least self aware person out there right now. Does she think that little of me?


Ignoring things like this is your best path.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> she's all about unicorns, as is 99% of kids that age. So i'm sure it'll be centered around that. Yeah, @Marc878 that's the hardest. Just coming to that realization. It's hard because there is no hisotry of it in 10 years(that i'm remotely aware of). Like, trust on both our ends was 150%. Never an issue. None of her stuff was ever locked, no history of it. Nothing. That's what's hard to wrap my head around. The oxytocin struggle is real i suppose


You have to deal with who she is now. What she’s shown you.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> I guess my biggest struggle is finding it hard to believe she is that person...despite the overwhelming evidence. I still don't know if she intentionally left me to hook up with this guy. Not that it really makes a difference...i keep thinking she was having a nervous breakdown and needed some time away, and this guy swooped in when he saw an easy opportunity. But again, whether it was premeditated or not doesn't matter. She was hooking up/talking to him while not sleeping at the house with her kids


My sister was a wayward. Before her affair she read her bible, went to church regularly, eve taught Sunday school. Was married for 10 years. Her husband was an ok guy. She was always kinda selfish but no one could believe it. Once she cheated she never lost her wayward mentality.

Her x died last year. It didn’t phase her one bit. Don’t ignore what you know for a pipe dream.

Most stay in denial because it’s a comfort zone. Pretty common. It’s also common to allow yourself to be a chump for months, even years. Huge mistake. Forums like this are full of chumps.

You’ve done ok so far. Keep going. From what I’ve seen R stands for rugsweep more than it does reconciliation. Rugsweep = long term heartburn and disaster but many jump right on it.


----------



## Openminded

Remind yourself that it doesn’t matter what _*was*_, it matters what _*is*_.


----------



## Evinrude58

My cheating ex taught Sunday school and sexted in class while she was teaching regular school. She told me.

who you thought she was doesn’t equal who she is. And yes, it’s hard to get one’s head around


----------



## johndoe12299

wow at both those stories. wow!
stbx was very religious and active at the church as well...i'm sensing a common theme here...hasn't been to church since this happened tho


----------



## johndoe12299

bit of a confidence boost the other day. went get a haircut and the girl shampooing my hair was like "wow your eyes are beautiful, not just the color, but the shape. They're vibrant"

It's been a long time since i've gotten a compliment of that caliber. "Vibrant"?! That felt good, lol. I told her wow, i'm getting divorced and my wife of 10 years never said that about my eyes. So of course she apologized and then told me she was going through a divorce too, lol! D is just so common nowadays.


----------



## Jamieboy

johndoe12299 said:


> bit of a confidence boost the other day. went get a haircut and the girl shampooing my hair was like "wow your eyes are beautiful, not just the color, but the shape. They're vibrant"
> 
> It's been a long time since i've gotten a compliment of that caliber. "Vibrant"?! That felt good, lol. I told her wow, i'm getting divorced and my wife of 10 years never said that about my eyes. So of course she apologized and then told me she was going through a divorce too, lol! D is just so common nowadays.


DO. NOT. STOP. GETTING YOUR HAIR CUT THERE


----------



## johndoe12299

lol, unfortunatety 0 physical attraction but she was super sweet and did a great job so i will definitely be going back


----------



## Blondilocks

johndoe12299 said:


> bit of a confidence boost the other day. went get a haircut and the girl shampooing my hair was like "wow your eyes are beautiful, not just the color, but the shape. They're vibrant"
> 
> It's been a long time since i've gotten a compliment of that caliber. "Vibrant"?! That felt good, lol. I told her wow, i'm getting divorced and my wife of 10 years never said that about my eyes. So of course she apologized and* then told me she was going through a divorce too,* lol! D is just so common nowadays.


Well, surprise, surprise! lol

It's been a long time since a woman has come on to you, hasn't it? Or, is it that you just haven't recognized it?


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> wow at both those stories. wow!
> stbx was very religious and active at the church as well...i'm sensing a common theme here...hasn't been to church since this happened tho


The important point or takeaway is they remained wayward. My sister blew up everything. The two kids lives were dramatically changed. She nor her husband ever had a decent or meaningful relationship after she had an affair with her boss. Years later her story is she’s glad she did it. It was all about her and what she wanted. 
That’s why you are getting the stop living in hopium.

Most think there situation is special, different. The reality is they aren’t. What you’re going through is typical. Nothing special at all.


----------



## Jamieboy

johndoe12299 said:


> lol, unfortunatety 0 physical attraction but she was super sweet and did a great job so i will definitely be going back


dude, I’m straight, but when a gay guy compliments me I take It, an ego stroke is an ego stroke 😁


----------



## Blondilocks

Jamieboy said:


> dude, I’m straight, but when a gay guy compliments me I take It, an ego stroke is an ego stroke 😁


Last month, I complimented my gay server on the lovely strand of pearls around his neck. He thanked me and said it was appreciated.


----------



## Divinely Favored

johndoe12299 said:


> wow at both those stories. wow!
> stbx was very religious and active at the church as well...i'm sensing a common theme here...hasn't been to church since this happened tho


It is no longer a good cover story. You found her out, why continue.


----------



## Chuck71

JD..... as I was reading your thread, you had me worried a few times. You seem to have a grasp on things now. Even if you took cheating entirely off the table, her abandoning her kids should be enough for you to walk. But why you say that Chuck?

Well...almost nine years ago, I had my DDay. (Notice the similarities...) She wanted us to remain M but do our own thing. I countered with MC. She refused so I dropped D papers in her lap. About a week later she stopped coming home through the week but did on weekends. I went down the rabbit hole. It was dark, cold, and numbing. But I came out a MUCH better person. As I detached, she began reaching. After I was away from her for a couple weeks, I did not want anything more to do with her.

Did she cheat? To this day I do not know and don't care. Her walking out on me was enough. The more I distanced myself from her, the more she reached. She would reach at least twice a year until I blocked her. 15 years and poof.... but I have never regretted it.

JD... be prepared for her to come after you hard. She wants her old lifestyle back. The handyman jobs.... she would have paid you with, your $ and took you inside and banged your brains out. So much for the myth of her not liking sex huh....

WWs always try to get to their BS through the kids. It's their next to last resort. Guess what their last one is.... just one guess LOL. It's hard at first doing the 180 but it gets easier with time. The farther away you get from her, the easier it becomes to see who she really is. Do not take her back....if you did it virtually gives her a green light to do it again. But if you just enjoy pain....at least get a D first, on your terms in all areas, and a couple months after... try dating. At least then you can tell her to F-off and not have to go through attorneys.


----------



## johndoe12299

I thought it would be getting better but i think it's getting worse.This last week has been basically 0 communication so i guess it's finally hitting home that it's over. The other weeks i was getting those apology texts so I guess in a way I sorta felt like i had the upper hand and was in control. Now, i guess it's a game of who caves first. I don't know why but i just constantly have to keep telling myself all the evil **** she did to get to this point. I just keep thinking a few changes and a little more effort in x department and this could have all been avoided. It's really hard to put yourself back in the relationship 6 months /1year/18 months ago and have a unibased perception of how it was.

No real point to this post. Did all of you go through this too?

Also it's just a downer to think about starting all over with someone, along with the trust issues i will undoubtedly have. I should be starting IC next week. It's just a ton of work. I would ultimately like to share my life with someone. Doubt i will go MWGTOW or anything like that. It's just...daunting


----------



## Evinrude58

Yes. It’s the same feeling for everyone that was in love with a person that totally betrayed them. You can’t wrap your head around it because it’s something you wouldn’t do. The would. They did. That’s why you ditch the witch. Forever. And remember to guard your dignity well against her or she will steal it every time you show weakness to her.


----------



## Openminded

While you may wish that things were different, the unfortunate fact remains that they aren’t. There’s no reset. It takes time for all of that wishful thinking to fade away. Often it takes much longer than you hope it will but there’s no way to fast-forward the process. You just have to live through it.


----------



## Marc878

A hopium addiction is very difficult to break. Brain versus heart.


----------



## Openminded

For a long time, you tell yourself the cheater is scum but deep down you don’t really believe it 100%. Then, one day, you tell yourself that and you absolutely believe it 100%. At that point you know you’re finally and completely over them. The problem is that takes time and everyone is different. When I was in the middle of it I thought I would never get through it. But I did and so will you.


----------



## GusPolinski

johndoe12299 said:


> I went through all the phone records dating back months before she left, and not a single one had the guy's number. She didn't call him until she was out of the house.


🙄

Dude... come on.

You've got kids – you can't afford to be this naive.



johndoe12299 said:


> ...unless she was communicating via other methods before she left...


Yep.



johndoe12299 said:


> ...but her phone was always unlocked and i was on it often so i don't htink it's likely.


Uninstall, reinstall.



johndoe12299 said:


> i'll probably never get the truth from her about that.


Not voluntarily, no.


----------



## GusPolinski

johndoe12299 said:


> Thanks everyone. She texted earlier today that she has to go look at her rent house tomorrow during the time the talk was scheduled for...lol. I told her OK and that i will cancel the babysitter. Nothing else and she didn't respond back about it. I guess she is playing a game where she wants me to ask her to meet at a different time? Make it look like I'm the one pushing for it? Who knows, it's Pretty laughable at this point. Admittedly, laughable from my end too, ha.


You didn't display the requisite amount of lovesick puppy so she figured you might actually hold her to account for her decisions... which means it just wasn't worth her time.



johndoe12299 said:


> On the plus side, i went play a poker game tonight that i haven't played since pre covid and won $1400 so that's nice...


Nice!


----------



## GusPolinski

johndoe12299 said:


> She's mad mad. I have to work storm restoration for Hurricane Ida and she wanted to stay with the kids at my house since she feels safer there. i told her no because she doesn't live here. Came pick up the kids this morning and didn't say a word to me, ha. Everything is all good as long as she gets her way/what she wants. It's all so clear now. Simply wants all the comfort i can provide but wants to live her own life.
> 
> It's like she still hasn't grasped it yet. Once divorce is finalized does she think she would stay at my house in a situation like this? Well, why would she now? Of course she tried to use the safety of the kids as manipulation. I just told her she's responsbile for their safety while she has custody.


"Kids can absolutely stay here.

You can't."


----------



## GusPolinski

johndoe12299 said:


> Another rough morning. Today was my daughter's birthday. 5yo. I went over stbx house to drop off a present to her. There was a fun jump so i went jump with my 2 kids for 15minutes. Daughter loved it. Then i left.
> 
> balled like a baby on the way home. Nothing to do with stbx; just not beign able to spend the day with my kid on her own birthday is so ****ty. I'll make it up to her next week though.
> 
> 
> Also, this afternoon my stbx texts "i have some odd jobs i need done around here asap, i can pay you to do them if youre interested"
> 
> I was completely flabbergasted. After everything that's happened, expecially the last couple weeks, everything she's done to our family, me telling her twice i'm either her husband or the kid's dad, nothing in between...she has the nerve to ask me to go do some handyman work at her new house?
> 
> I didn't even respond. I'm still in shock. She has to be the least self aware person out there right now. Does she think that little of me?


You should've responded with a link to Angie's List...









Angi - Home for everything home.


Angie's List is now Angi. Connect with vetted pros, read verified reviews & get fair pricing for all your home projects & services — with Angi.




www.angi.com





😆😂🤣


----------



## Chuck71

OP.... you hear no apologies because she is not "cutting you." She is assessing her position

so be aware. What helped me, with my XW is I profiled her...which at the time was my concentration

in my PhD studies. I knew her moves like clockwork. Only you know her better than anyone else.

Time..... is your ally. If you climb to 50k feet and observe her actions, WITHOUT emotion... it becomes

much easier. She doesn't have the audacity to say she wants to work things out but will damn sure

use the kids to manipulate you. She must work p/t at a travel agency because she continually wants 

to send you on a guilt trip. Your journey is far from over. She still has many tricks up her sleeve. Be 

ready. Separate who she IS from who she WAS. That helped me a lot. I would expand upon MGTOW 

but I would like your permission to.


----------



## johndoe12299

be my guest!


----------



## johndoe12299

GusPolinski said:


> You didn't display the requisite amount of lovesick puppy so she figured you might actually hold her to account for her decisions... which means it just wasn't worth her time.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice!


This seems accurate. I failed to post in here but she did call a few days later after she canceled and it was "i can't do this right now, my anxiety is through the roof, i know it will just turn into an interrogation etc etc" and then followed it up with "let's just put the kids first and continue on this path(to D)", lol. She absolutely does not want to face th emusic and is using anxiety as an excuse to not talk about it


----------



## johndoe12299

GusPolinski said:


> You should've responded with a link to Angie's List...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Angi - Home for everything home.
> 
> 
> Angie's List is now Angi. Connect with vetted pros, read verified reviews & get fair pricing for all your home projects & services — with Angi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.angi.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 😆😂🤣


ha i never responded. I did go the next day to pick up the kids and her cousin was there putting up some blinds and other ****. I just said "damn she roped you in?"


----------



## johndoe12299

GusPolinski said:


> "Kids can absolutely stay here.
> 
> You can't."


I would have loved to say that but couldn't with the hurricane affecting my work that week.


----------



## johndoe12299

GusPolinski said:


> 🙄
> 
> Dude... come on.
> 
> You've got kids – you can't afford to be this naive.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.
> 
> 
> 
> Uninstall, reinstall.
> 
> 
> 
> Not voluntarily, no.


It's possible. She isn't the most tech savvy though. Still possible. I did check her phone 2 weeks before D day because something was "off". I had no reason to think she was cheating but let's just say I felt "curious". Didn't find anything in emails/texts/call logs. So, who knows. _Shrugs_


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> It's possible. She isn't the most tech savvy though. Still possible. I did check her phone 2 weeks before D day because something was "off". I had no reason to think she was cheating but let's just say I felt "curious". Didn't find anything in emails/texts/call logs. So, who knows. _Shrugs_


Her AP may have been tech savvy.


----------



## MattMatt

There's also a number of apps that can be used for phone and video calls. Telegram, Facebook, WhatsApp, etc. Plus games with in-built chat facilities that can be a cheater's pal. Sadly.


----------



## johndoe12299

So...i went to Cincinatti the for a 5 day vacation to meet a friend...

I got laid 3 times...

By the same chick...

in the same night

Kept me up until 5:30AM Sunday and i had to leave for the airport at 7. needless to say i got zero sleep and i've been nonstop since arriving home.

worth every minute of lost sleep

I honestly don't think i've ever gone 3x in a night, with anyone. I was so tired after the 2nd time. I thought we were going to sleep but she started playing with it again and asked if i wanted a trifecta. I told her i REALLY needed some sleep but she didn't agree and finished me orally, lol


----------



## Chuck71




----------



## johndoe12299

oh i should note...my "friend" was not the chick...just a buddy. I met the chick out at a bar. got to chatting and she just got out of a divorce. We talked a lot the first night, i told her i'd hit her up the 2nd night. She met us the 2nd night then came back to our place. We both knew what we wanted, was nice just having everything out in the open; and she knew i was coming back home the next day. D

Definitely keeping her in my contacts should i return to cincinatti.

There was also a realllly cute bartender who told some mutual friends i was cute. Not sure why i didn't go talk to her. Probably too drunk. But, overall good to get some female attention. This past week has done more to help me move on than anything else. 

You know what else? When i got home sunday i got a "I miss you" text from the SBTX...it's almost as if she knew i got some strange over the weekend. Funny how that works huh


----------



## johndoe12299

Has anyone read the book on women's infidelity?



Women's Infidelity | Why Women Cheat And Have Affairs



I'm through chapter 3 and i'll be honest, it paints a pretty bleak picture of any hope of a successful LTR. It's extremely accurate in what my STBX did and many others...question is is a true happy LTR even possible with the way female hormones act in their 30s?


----------



## Jamieboy

johndoe12299 said:


> Has anyone read the book on women's infidelity?
> 
> 
> 
> Women's Infidelity | Why Women Cheat And Have Affairs
> 
> 
> 
> I'm through chapter 3 and i'll be honest, it paints a pretty bleak picture of any hope of a successful LTR. It's extremely accurate in what my STBX did and many others...question is is a true happy LTR even possible with the way female hormones act in their 30s?


I've not read it, but I would say yes, it is possible. It's a book, written to make money. I suspect its written to play to the confirmation biase of people in your situation. However, I think most of us have had our resolve tested over the years. When those situations present themselves, three things go into the decision making process. 1, am I happy with my life? 2, how firm do I think my partners boundaries are? 3 how firm are my own boundaries. 

Ironically, I think the first one is pretty irrelevant if 2 and 3 are lacking. My point is, there are reasons why 2 and 3 may not be present, and they are usually eroded over time in an LTR. They certainly were in my case, mutual respect disappeared first from her side then mine. 

I really must write down my full story sometime 🙃


----------



## Kaliber

johndoe12299 said:


> oh i should note...my "friend" was not the chick...just a buddy. I met the chick out at a bar. got to chatting and she just got out of a divorce. We talked a lot the first night, i told her i'd hit her up the 2nd night. She met us the 2nd night then came back to our place. We both knew what we wanted, was nice just having everything out in the open; and she knew i was coming back home the next day. D
> 
> Definitely keeping her in my contacts should i return to cincinatti.
> 
> There was also a realllly cute bartender who told some mutual friends i was cute. Not sure why i didn't go talk to her. Probably too drunk. But, overall good to get some female attention. This past week has done more to help me move on than anything else.
> 
> You know what else? When i got home sunday i got a "I miss you" text from the SBTX...it's almost as if she knew i got some strange over the weekend. Funny how that works huh


@johndoe12299 I'm happy that you started seeing what's out there, if you remember, more than a month ago I wrote :


Kaliber said:


> Soon, you will see what's out there for you and you will be very excited and happy!


AND:


Kaliber said:


> You need to start dating to forget about her!
> Really, start dating!
> And Hit the gym every day!





johndoe12299 said:


> question is is a true happy LTR even possible with the way female hormones act in their 30s?


Yes it's possible if you know what your doing and how to pick and most importantly maintaining your boundaries and frame!
These LTR problems happens mostly in the west!


----------



## johndoe12299

Welp. So Friday was an interesting day. Wife calls and asks if i have time to talk. She shows up at the door and says "i'm ready to come clean"

She then proceeds to tell me everything from the beginning where she first started to lose attraction/feel more of a brother/sister relationship to me up to where she is now. She read the women's infidelity book i posted above and apparently it opened her eyes to the "why" of what she's been feeling the last couple years. She basically just owned up to everything. Told me the timeline(which lined up with what i found through my investigation), she evenvolunteered to show me her phone with the messages telling him not to contact her anymore. She owned up to everything, apologized profusely and wants to do what she can to "make this work"...

I said if i were to even consider it she would have to at the minimum expose herself to all close friends/family members, give me all her email/phone/SM passwords, do IC as a start, and leave her work(or him leave)...

She emailed me all her passwords yesterday and already called her 1 sister that didn't know, 2 close aunts and a friend. She is about to cap at her agency(when you keep 100% of your commission) so she asked if i can give her a month to do that as she has a closing in next few weeks. She has until Nov 1.

I really didn't think it would happen that quickly and figured she'd balk at those things. So...I have no ****ing clue what to do now. I'm not sure i thought much about if she actually agreed to do that stuff.


----------



## nekonamida

Do you genuinely want to R with her? Or do you find yourself secretly hoping that she doesn't follow through so that you have justification to continue with D?


----------



## BigDaddyNY

johndoe12299 said:


> Welp. So Friday was an interesting day. Wife calls and asks if i have time to talk. She shows up at the door and says "i'm ready to come clean"
> 
> She then proceeds to tell me everything from the beginning where she first started to lose attraction/feel more of a brother/sister relationship to me up to where she is now. She read the women's infidelity book i posted above and apparently it opened her eyes to the "why" of what she's been feeling the last couple years. She basically just owned up to everything. Told me the timeline(which lined up with what i found through my investigation), she evenvolunteered to show me her phone with the messages telling him not to contact her anymore. She owned up to everything, apologized profusely and wants to do what she can to "make this work"...
> 
> I said if i were to even consider it she would have to at the minimum expose herself to all close friends/family members, give me all her email/phone/SM passwords, do IC as a start, and leave her work(or him leave)...
> 
> She emailed me all her passwords yesterday and already called her 1 sister that didn't know, 2 close aunts and a friend. She is about to cap at her agency(when you keep 100% of your commission) so she asked if i can give her a month to do that as she has a closing in next few weeks. She has until Nov 1.
> 
> I really didn't think it would happen that quickly and figured she'd balk at those things. So...I have no ****ing clue what to do now. I'm not sure i thought much about if she actually agreed to do that stuff.


If you want to reconcile this sounds like a good step in that direction. This affair never got physical or am I remembering wrong?


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> oh i should note...my "friend" was not the chick...just a buddy. I met the chick out at a bar. got to chatting and she just got out of a divorce. We talked a lot the first night, i told her i'd hit her up the 2nd night. She met us the 2nd night then came back to our place. We both knew what we wanted, was nice just having everything out in the open; and she knew i was coming back home the next day. D
> 
> Definitely keeping her in my contacts should i return to cincinatti.
> 
> There was also a realllly cute bartender who told some mutual friends i was cute. Not sure why i didn't go talk to her. Probably too drunk. But, overall good to get some female attention. This past week has done more to help me move on than anything else.
> 
> You know what else? When i got home sunday i got a "I miss you" text from the SBTX...it's almost as if she knew i got some strange over the weekend. Funny how that works huh


Ignore


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Welp. So Friday was an interesting day. Wife calls and asks if i have time to talk. She shows up at the door and says "i'm ready to come clean"
> 
> She then proceeds to tell me everything from the beginning where she first started to lose attraction/feel more of a brother/sister relationship to me up to where she is now. She read the women's infidelity book i posted above and apparently it opened her eyes to the "why" of what she's been feeling the last couple years. She basically just owned up to everything. Told me the timeline(which lined up with what i found through my investigation), she evenvolunteered to show me her phone with the messages telling him not to contact her anymore. She owned up to everything, apologized profusely and wants to do what she can to "make this work"...
> 
> I said if i were to even consider it she would have to at the minimum expose herself to all close friends/family members, give me all her email/phone/SM passwords, do IC as a start, and leave her work(or him leave)...
> 
> She emailed me all her passwords yesterday and already called her 1 sister that didn't know, 2 close aunts and a friend. She is about to cap at her agency(when you keep 100% of your commission) so she asked if i can give her a month to do that as she has a closing in next few weeks. She has until Nov 1.
> 
> I really didn't think it would happen that quickly and figured she'd balk at those things. So...I have no ****ing clue what to do now. I'm not sure i thought much about if she actually agreed to do that stuff.


You’d have to eat the **** sandwich. Infidelity is a life long gift. Better put some thoughts into what you’re getting back.
I’d bet she’s got a good dose of reality on how hard life is gonna be and is looking for a soft spot to land.
You don’t matter but she does. Better wake up.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> She emailed me all her passwords yesterday and already called her 1 sister that didn't know, 2 close aunts and a friend. She is about to cap at her agency(when you keep 100% of your commission) so she asked if i can give her a month to do that as she has a closing in next few weeks. She has until Nov 1.


She wants you to wait because of her job? I guess what’s important to her comes first.
I’d bet her boyfriend dumped her.


----------



## Evinrude58

I reread your thread. I’d let her go.
Asexual? Boyfriend? Took her ring off?
Yeah, she got dumped and wants the security back.


----------



## Diceplayer

Admit it brother, you are Plan B.


----------



## Chuck71

JD.... listen to what the guys are saying..... she Plan B'd you.... wants a soft landing after the AP dumped her.

Not only recall how she treated you, what about the kids...

If the AP hadn't dumped her.... would she be at your door begging to take her back?

She showed you who she really is.....BELIEVE HER

She wasn't into sex....with you. Bet your house and mine too she sure was with AP

Accepting a WS back after an affair gives them a green light, to do it again.

If you're on the fence, do as I recommended earlier.... D her on YOUR terms, 50/50 custody,

listing you as primary guardian (this is HUGE), no child support / spousal support. Any refusals

from her equates to a hells to the no for R. Then..... if it doesn't work out with post-D R, you can say

-didn't work, bye bye- Then all you have to deal with is custody % and maybe, maybe child support.


----------



## Zedd

johndoe12299 said:


> I really didn't think it would happen that quickly and figured she'd balk at those things. So...I have no ****ing clue what to do now. I'm not sure i thought much about if she actually agreed to do that stuff.


Might I suggest telling her you'd still like to proceed with the divorce and division of assets, but you'll be open to developing a new relationship with her, if you're truly interested.

How she responds to that would tell you an awful lot about how/what she thinks of you.


----------



## Kaliber

johndoe12299 said:


> Welp. So Friday was an interesting day. Wife calls and asks if i have time to talk. She shows up at the door and says "i'm ready to come clean"
> 
> She then proceeds to tell me everything from the beginning where she first started to lose attraction/feel more of a brother/sister relationship to me up to where she is now. She read the women's infidelity book i posted above and apparently it opened her eyes to the "why" of what she's been feeling the last couple years. She basically just owned up to everything. Told me the timeline(which lined up with what i found through my investigation), she evenvolunteered to show me her phone with the messages telling him not to contact her anymore. She owned up to everything, apologized profusely and wants to do what she can to "make this work"...
> 
> I said if i were to even consider it she would have to at the minimum expose herself to all close friends/family members, give me all her email/phone/SM passwords, do IC as a start, and leave her work(or him leave)...
> 
> She emailed me all her passwords yesterday and already called her 1 sister that didn't know, 2 close aunts and a friend. She is about to cap at her agency(when you keep 100% of your commission) so she asked if i can give her a month to do that as she has a closing in next few weeks. She has until Nov 1.
> 
> I really didn't think it would happen that quickly and figured she'd balk at those things. So...I have no ****ing clue what to do now. I'm not sure i thought much about if she actually agreed to do that stuff.


@johndoe12299 I know what your feeling now...Hope and fear!
Hope that your family is finally going to be whole again, one happy family, one house, and also no need to work so hard to build something new!

Fear that you're just Plan B, and fear that she doesn't truly desire you (the brother/sister relationship she admitted to you), fear that she doesn't have the hots for you, the fear that she might deprive you from sex (brother/sister relationship), and the fear she might pull something similar in the future after she is more secure financially or scored another man (thirsty Simp who has a bit of game) who is willing to wife her up!

If you re-read you thread from the start you will know that she really got dumped by him, and there is a VERY good chance that you're the fall back option!

Questions need to be asked (to yourself):

Are you really her Plan B? And how can you confirm that this is/not the case?
Does she still desire you sexually?
Does she really want to work hard on reconciliation?

You see reconciliation takes time (Average of 3-5 years) and no guarantee it will work at the end, the success rate is extremely low, meaning it's REALLY not an easy task and it takes years to achieve, she might not follow through and give up, it will take time from YOUR life that you will never get back, so do you take a leap of faith and hope it will work out, will she follow through (Do the work) tell the end, or should you spend those years building something new?!

Ask yourself this: *What will a strong successful man do?*
It's evident that she is desperate now (agreeing to expose herself to family and come clean), lots of WW do that but fall back to their ways later on, or give up, it's very risky, you might have seen some new stories that confirms this in the Infidelity section here on TAM (and plenty of old ones that confirms this already)!

You might want to ask her these questions:

Why do you want to come back? what changed?
Why do you want ME?
What is going to be different now?
I want sex every day, or whenever I want, excuses such as headache, not in the mood, being Asexual is not going to cut it for me, how are you going to cope with this (New me) while you see us as a brother/sister relationship?

@johndoe12299 I do not advice you to reconcile with her, but I do know human nature, and we have to be realistic here, so I do believe you will cave in and reconcile with her despite all the advice given here, because you are still stuck in limbo for so long and you couldn't/can't move on!

*So might as well make it right, and it should be on your terms!*
So If you're going to reconcile (before you do, at least get the answers to all the questions above), you need to let go of your fears, and you need to let her know that your are not *johndoe12299 that she knew when she left you*, you're a new person now that has ZERO tolerance for bullsh** , and you are not afraid to end things quickly if she showed any lack of effort!

*She first needs to leave her job now!
But before she does, and loses her income she needs to accept your conditions first!

Conditions : *Start being *Alpha male* and get some good Red Pill advice here, it works (trust me), tell her (by phone/in person not in writing) that you want her to be:

A new wife, because the one before doesn't interest you!
Agreeable
Submissive (not a slave, you lead she follows)
Feminine
Available any time you want (Sexually)
No male friends (Gay or not)
No social media for her <--- this is very important
No Girls Nights Out (GNO)
Postnup (it's crap and usually worthless but good indicator of her willingness)!
Add what you want....
Tell her if she wants to do what she can to "make this work" as she said then this is what she needs to do! (See how she reacts to this list!!)
*If she agrees, then she must leave her job now!*

What you are doing is simply building a new relationship dynamics where you are taking the lead role calling the shots, remember that she wants to do what she can to "make this work" NOT YOU, she does, so these are you conditions, if she doesn't or start to negotiate tell her Nope, you do not negotiate with cheaters, it's your way or the high way!

You need to start acting like johndoe12299 version 2.0 who has confidence and dominance who is not afraid to kick her to the curb if he wanted to, or you will repeat the **** show that happened to you!
You need to shock her by the new YOU, and see how she responds or else there is no point going back to the Beta Provider who pines after her, you saw first hand where this type of dynamics lead you too: *The brother/sister relationship and getting cheated on plus dumped*

For you to be able to pull this off you need to have no FEAR of the outcome, it's your way or no way, it's not going to get any worse, you have nothing to lose, you have the upper hand now, she is desperate, plus she might like the new you, the man with confidence and dominance (Alpha Male) that most women run after!

I know if you had confidence and dominance you could have moved on long time ago, you have this Beta Provider problem that you are working on since you came here, you got the books and you are working hard on yourself to be the best version of yourself, but at least for now fake it (Fake it until you make it!)
If you're going to do this against all our advice.. Then do it right!


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## Marc878

OP appears to be deep in his own fog. His wayward snaps her fingers and he comes running. Better wake up, bud.


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## Openminded

Her new life cratered so she wants to return to her old life. Happens a lot with cheating wives if they monkey branch wrong. I think you’ll take her back so my suggestion is never trust her 100% again. That’s really asking for trouble. I hope things work out to your benefit.


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## Jamieboy

I think there is some good advice here, I still say divorce first then think about R, however if she is serious about wanting you, she will get her arse to therapy. The truth is, personal change is really really hard. You need to have motivation for that, if you take her back straight away you will slip into old habits. The motivation will not be there. Also, you need to change too, which is equally hard. 

Its a horrible situation, I wish it weren't but there it is


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## oldshirt

She’s just backpedaling trying to find a soft to land.

Either the OM outright dumped her she’s just figuring out he is like 99.9999% of all the other OMs out there and was just scoring some easy, no-cost poon. 

The quickest way to shew away an OM is to let him have her. 

Once she starts wanting him to change her flats and unclogging her toilet, killing spiders or meeting the kids, that’s when he decides he wants nothing to do with that crap. That is what the BH is for. Other men only want to provide the d1ck. They don’t want to do any of that other stuff.

The thing you need to remind yourself is she only wanted you for that other stuff. She didn’t want your d1ck. 

She still doesn’t, but she may promise a life of swinging from the chandeliers to Hoover you back in.


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## Marc878

The only thing worse than losing a wayward cheater is winning a “pick me dance”.


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## Chuck71

JD......... below is a post from a BH, just 8 months back. He is speaking to you......

Chicagohusband2020 post #724

Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to provide a quick update for all those that helped support my through those dark few 
months. My separated wife and I now only speak via our lawyers. I am happy healthy and the second half 
of 2020 was probably the best of my life. I woke up most morning feeling 1/2 my age and excited for 
life. We are getting close to a settlement but still a ways away it seems. I have found someone who 
respects me and make me truly happy. I am better off. I hope anyone else out there that reads through 
this thread realize that you can also be better off if in a similar situation. 
Life is too short to stay with a WW


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## Chuck71

JD...... how's things? Were you seduced by the Dark Side?


----------



## johndoe12299

Hi @Chuck71 i have not made a decision yet. I truly don't know what to do. I feel like I know what I "should" do but of course there's the "well maybe this situation could be different"(despite the overwhelming evidence saying it'll probably turn out like 99% of other cases) on my other shoulder.

I had more discussions with her and asked her questions similar to what Kaliber posted. She agreed to sign a post nuptial should we get to that point. So, that's promising. If we do R then she would then be entering into my frame and there would be no financial threat to me should she leave in the future, or should i decide things aren't where they need to be and end it. Only problem is i spoke to lawyer about it and in order to sign post nup, we'd have to call off the divorce. If i do decide to attempt R i think I would just let the divorce play out, and then decide whether to remarry her at a later time or just stay in a committed LTR as I don't see the point of marriage anymore outside of tax benefits and health insurance.

It's a real mind **** though. Just when i thought i was getting to a good space. It's like she knew i was with someone in Cincinatti. How does she blow me up the minute i get back? Suspicious timing but i guess not surprising as she got her first whiff of me getting out of town and her not knowing what i was doing.

She is saying all the right things, which is to be expected i suppose. Also had 2 dates this weekend that i canceled just because i'm not in the right headspace right now. I need to simmer on this. Won't make a hasty decision.


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## Jamieboy

Are you seeing a therapist? As always you seem to be approaching this in a level headed fashion.

What is in the plus column for getting back with her?


----------



## johndoe12299

Not seeing a therapist yet. I had one session with a social worker but I'd like to get with someone more focused on marriage/infidelity issues. I need to make that a priority for sure.

Plus column...hmm, the good times with her were really good. We had a good connection, she was a great wife for the majority of the marriage. She's smart, funny, empathetic. And of course the family unity aspect is a big plus for me. Could I get all of that with a new partner? Sure, but I would still be worried about "will this person do what my wife did?" I guess that's where counseling comes in though...

Not sure if all of that outweighs the cons though. The constant looking over my shoulder i'm not sure i can put up with, even with having access to all of her devices/emails.

Although with her agreeing to my stipulations I feel like it can be a very low risk high reward scenario as i stand to lose much less with a post nuptial in place. 


She was very candid with me in her telling of her story, which I appreciated.

Cliff notes:
She started losing attractiveness/building resentment, thought i only viewed her as a wife/mom and nothing else. Didn't show her appreciation. She thought something was wrong with her as she had everything she could ask for, home, kids, car etc...

Didn't know who to talk to about how she was feeling, was scared to say anything.

She started talking to this guy at work and they had a few things in common and i guess created a spark. She thought "well if i am interested in this guy then I must not be with my soul mate" and it "confirmed" for her what she had been feeling for the last 1-2 years. She justified it in her mind by waiting to leave me to contact him outside of work hours.

Lasted up until 3 weeks ago where she says she woke up one morning and realized it was all ******** and that soul mates weren't a thing and how foolish she'd been. Extremely apologetic and all that good stuff...

Apologized for all the rants/threats of spousal support, she admitted to beign in a 'daze' and acting out of fear and resentment.

She basically just owned up to everything and said she's completely out of line and "will do whatever it takes" to show me she is serious about us.


So,good chance she's just blowing smoke up my ass as I'm sure this is how most of these situations go, lol.

I will say we have both read the women's infidelity books and they are eye opening...she couldn't believe how accurate it was describing what she felt. She says she has a newfound understanding of herself and why she felt the things she did. Part of her was scared to talk to anyone about it as she was embarassed all this time.


----------



## manowar

johndoe12299 said:


> into my frame


your learning. 


johndoe12299 said:


> I don't see the point of marriage anymore outside of tax benefits and health insurance.


What happened -- you go MGTOW?



johndoe12299 said:


> she woke up one morning and realized it was all ****** and that soul mates weren't a thing and how foolish she'd been.


this may be true but she missed that wallet. What she realized is how difficult it would be to replace you. Let her know it.
Don't forget that nice guys always lose. Always.

It's your life and your decision on how to handle this.


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## Jamieboy

I totally see where you're coming from with the good points, however, i think you need to go to therapy, just for the one line where you say you would be worried about a future partner doing the same. That's a drop in logic there, because any future partner would be starting with a clean slate. 

Im not going to suggest that I know your wife, but I think she probably needs to live her life without you in it for a while. Im sure you are a great guy, however, she won't fully recognise that until she has faced the reality of being on her own for a while. 

I fear if you take her back with effectively zero consequences, the temptation to fall back on unhealthy coping mechanisms will resurface. Resentment is difficult to let go of, also if you take her back and she chaffes at the new reality, it may also drive her back to unhealthy coping strategies. 

Im not trying to influence you either way, just want you to be in a position of knowledge 

Good luck


----------



## gr8ful1

johndoe12299 said:


> She agreed to sign a post nuptial should we get to that point. So, that's promising. If we do R then she would then be entering into my frame and there would be no financial threat to me should she leave in the future, or should i decide things aren't where they need to be and end it. Only problem is i spoke to lawyer about it and in order to sign post nup, we'd have to call off the divorce.


Here’s what I would do:

Call off the divorce (assuming step #2 is feasible)
Set up a VERY favorable-to-you post-nup, make sure your lawyers say it would stick. Have the post-nup say you can call off the marriage for ANY reason or no reason at all
Watch her actions, see how you feel over time. 
If you then decide you’re done with her, you have the favorable post-nup so you don’t get financially effed
I’d say this makes the best of a very ****ty situation


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## Evinrude58

Unless a post nup is really, really going to help you financially when you do divorce, I’d get it done. There are 2 kinds of women in the world: those that cheat and those that don’t.
What you have is a cheater. It doesn’t matter that she understands now that she was wrong. The fact is that she doesn’t have the strength of character to be a loyal person when she has the urge to chase another ****.
Don’t be naive enough to think she’s “changed” and it won’t happen again. She’s not the special snowflake that “gets it” and will now show some character. 
It’s far more likely that the new wore off of this guy, or he showed her he really had no intentions of being with her or really loving her, and NOW she realizes that having a partner that truly loves her and wants to be with her- ain’t so easy to find.
Your wife is already a cheater. She will find it even easier on her conscience to do it Again.
She’s just manipulating you into being that person that was her rock, her security blanket, her source of an easier life—-that she threw in the garbage just a short time ago. 

She hasn’t had some epiphany. She’s just saying what she knows you want to hear so she gets that security back, and the person that actually cares about her.


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## 3Xnocharm

So is she aware of your wild night with another woman? I’m betting not. You have to come clean with that if you are going to reconcile. She very likely will change her whole tune and lose her shyt once she knows. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

Consult your attorney over a post nup.

Everything I have read about them says they are worth little more than the paper on which they are printed.

For that reason, I would finish the divorce, and let her earn reconciliation as your ex, should you choose the R route. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## johndoe12299

farsidejunky said:


> Consult your attorney over a post nup.
> 
> Everything I have read about them says there are worth little more than the paper on which they are printed.
> 
> For that reason, I would finish the divorce, and let her earn reconciliation as your ex, should you choose the R route.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I consulted with him. He says theere is statute in our law that provides for protection and separation of assets during a marriage, although you have to go in front of a judge. So, ultimately it's up to a judge to decide. I guess we basically tell him our story and he determine if you get the green light.


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## johndoe12299

3Xnocharm said:


> So is she aware of your wild night with another woman? I’m betting not. You have to come clean with that if you are going to reconcile. She very likely will change her whole tune and lose her shyt once she knows.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ha, not yet. She told me it's none of her business and she wouldn't ask if i was with anyone on that trip so I left it at that. But, I've had this urge to come clean, although I don't think there is much to come clean about. The marriage was over at that point. I think you're right though. During R all things should probably be on the table.


----------



## johndoe12299

Jamieboy said:


> I totally see where you're coming from with the good points, however, i think you need to go to therapy, just for the one line where you say you would be worried about a future partner doing the same. That's a drop in logic there, because any future partner would be starting with a clean slate.
> 
> Im not going to suggest that I know your wife, but I think she probably needs to live her life without you in it for a while. Im sure you are a great guy, however, she won't fully recognise that until she has faced the reality of being on her own for a while.
> 
> I fear if you take her back with effectively zero consequences, the temptation to fall back on unhealthy coping mechanisms will resurface. Resentment is difficult to let go of, also if you take her back and she chaffes at the new reality, it may also drive her back to unhealthy coping strategies.
> 
> Im not trying to influence you either way, just want you to be in a position of knowledge
> 
> Good luck


I suggested this as well. I told her she hasn't been single in forever and I don't think she can make a clear, level headed decision until we are actually apart and she isn't seeing someone else. She just needs to be alone. Still on the table.


----------



## johndoe12299

manowar said:


> your learning.
> 
> 
> What happened -- you go MGTOW?
> 
> 
> 
> this may be true but she missed that wallet. What she realized is how difficult it would be to replace you. Let her know it.
> Don't forget that nice guys always lose. Always.
> 
> It's your life and your decision on how to handle this.


Eh i wouldn't say i've gone mGTOW...i recognize the benefits of having a partner in life. Life is more fun as a team with someone who loves you at your side. It's fun to have a "partner in crime" and enjoy life's experiences with.

I just don't see the point of getting married. It's purely a legal construct that really provides no tangible benefits other than a bigger tax deduction and health ins for your spouse...I'd love to be proven wrong. I can be in a committed LTR without signing some paperwork and receiving a certificate.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Hi @Chuck71 i have not made a decision yet. I truly don't know what to do. I feel like I know what I "should" do but of course there's the "well maybe this situation could be different"(despite the overwhelming evidence saying it'll probably turn out like 99% of other cases) on my other shoulder.
> 
> I had more discussions with her and asked her questions similar to what Kaliber posted. She agreed to sign a post nuptial should we get to that point. So, that's promising. If we do R then she would then be entering into my frame and there would be no financial threat to me should she leave in the future, or should i decide things aren't where they need to be and end it. Only problem is i spoke to lawyer about it and in order to sign post nup, we'd have to call off the divorce. If i do decide to attempt R i think I would just let the divorce play out, and then decide whether to remarry her at a later time or just stay in a committed LTR as I don't see the point of marriage anymore outside of tax benefits and health insurance.
> 
> It's a real mind **** though. Just when i thought i was getting to a good space. It's like she knew i was with someone in Cincinatti. How does she blow me up the minute i get back? Suspicious timing but i guess not surprising as she got her first whiff of me getting out of town and her not knowing what i was doing.
> 
> *She is saying all the right things, which is to be expected i suppose. Also had 2 dates this weekend that i canceled just because i'm not in the right headspace right now. I need to simmer on this. Won't make a hasty decision.*


The one thing you should have learned is words are meaningless. Your heart hasn’t caught up to your brain yet. R can stand for rugsweep as well as reconciliation.

Your situation is not uncommon. No wayward wants to lose their meal ticket unless they have a firm one lined up. I still say her shiny new man either dumped her or it wasn’t worked out.


----------



## johndoe12299

Evinrude58 said:


> Unless a post nup is really, really going to help you financially when you do divorce, I’d get it done. There are 2 kinds of women in the world: those that cheat and those that don’t.
> What you have is a cheater. It doesn’t matter that she understands now that she was wrong. The fact is that she doesn’t have the strength of character to be a loyal person when she has the urge to chase another ****.
> Don’t be naive enough to think she’s “changed” and it won’t happen again. She’s not the special snowflake that “gets it” and will now show some character.
> It’s far more likely that the new wore off of this guy, or he showed her he really had no intentions of being with her or really loving her, and NOW she realizes that having a partner that truly loves her and wants to be with her- ain’t so easy to find.
> Your wife is already a cheater. She will find it even easier on her conscience to do it Again.
> She’s just manipulating you into being that person that was her rock, her security blanket, her source of an easier life—-that she threw in the garbage just a short time ago.
> 
> She hasn’t had some epiphany. She’s just saying what she knows you want to hear so she gets that security back, and the person that actually cares about her.


I get that. In her case, it's more than just words though. She's taking action. Despite us agreeing to a Nov 1 deadline to leave her office, she's leaving next week after a closing she has. She has a few interviews lined up at other agencies. Agreeing to everything, made more calls to family members.

Could it be pure desperation? Sure, but any true shot at R begins with action and she's definitely taking action and not just verbalizing things i want to hear.

You're right though, once a cheater, she'll always be known as a cheater. No escaping it. Is it possible people just make really stupid decisions that they ultimately regret? I know i've made tons of stupid decisions over my life, although i'd say nothing comparable to betraying a spouse. But i've made plenty of dumb judgement calls that i got very lucky to get out of unscathed; as i'm sure everyone on earth has. Is exercising forgiveness such a bad thing? Whatever happens I don't want this to define me; I don't want to be angry over it. It's already consumed too much of my time and headspace. I just want to move forward.


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## johndoe12299

by the way i just want to say again, thanks for everyone in this thread. If you guys and gals are ever down in the dirty south shoot me a PM and i'd love to buy you drinks


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## Marc878

They all tend to play the I was in a fog, didn’t know what I was doing, blah, blah, blah. I was the little lost girl in the woods, etc. BS you don’t meet up with another man, move into a sexual affair and dump your marriage, spouse and family and not know what you’re doing. I’d say reality hit her or the shiny new lover dumped her.

*You really don’t know.* All you have is her words, version. Call up the boyfriend and ask. Plus they still work together and there’s a good chance the affair maybe ongoing. Her showing you a text doesn’t mean squat.

Not to mention you know she has the capability to cheat. Repeated infidelity happens. 
If she’s serious then she’ll be there after the divorce. That’s your safest route.


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## Marc878

You were both in the same marriage and she wasn’t perfect either. Did her imperfections cause you to cheat? Like a lot you seem to want this to be your fault as an excuse to justify her actions. Faulty thinking.
Long term as with any reconciliation you get to live with her infidelity permanently. Can you do that? That’s what most don’t put in enough time or thought on and regret it later.


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## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> I get that. In her case, it's more than just words though. She's taking action. Despite us agreeing to a Nov 1 deadline to leave her office, she's leaving next week after a closing she has. She has a few interviews lined up at other agencies. Agreeing to everything, made more calls to family members.
> 
> Could it be pure desperation? Sure, but any true shot at R begins with action and she's definitely taking action and not just verbalizing things i want to hear.
> 
> You're right though, once a cheater, she'll always be known as a cheater. No escaping it. Is it possible people just make really stupid decisions that they ultimately regret? I know i've made tons of stupid decisions over my life, although i'd say nothing comparable to betraying a spouse. But i've made plenty of dumb judgement calls that i got very lucky to get out of unscathed; as i'm sure everyone on earth has. Is exercising forgiveness such a bad thing? Whatever happens I don't want this to define me; I don't want to be angry over it. It's already consumed too much of my time and headspace. I just want to move forward.


It’s also possible for people to repeat their choices. My sister was a wayward. Her thought process never changed. It is your choice.

It’s hard but try and see what is versus what you want to see.


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## Jamieboy

johndoe12299 said:


> by the way i just want to say again, thanks for everyone in this thread. If you guys and gals are ever down in the dirty south shoot me a PM and i'd love to buy you drinks


would love to, but us brits are still barred from the good ole US of A lol, on a serious note, how was your wife’s self esteem during your marriage? was she confident and self assured or timid and shy? It can have a lot to do with how they ended up doing what they did. Motivation is a factor in coming to your decision. The fog is real, I have been in it, it consumes you until you don’t recognise yourself. It definitely does not excuse what she did, but it can explain the change of heart. If the fog was the reason, then she was most likely dumped by her AP.


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## Chuck71

Proceed with D..... full steam ahead. If she allows you to secure all your assets, 50/50 custody, no

CS or SS, allow you to be primary parent... then call a truce after the D. Live apart for awhile. Still

have date nights and even have a family night. You can't miss someone when they're under the

same roof. She may very well learn from the separation. She could also monkey branch to

another guy. No better way to know that, than living apart. But the chances of her agreeing to

everything is slim. If you agree to remain in the same house, she just might go for that. But

time apart is much needed..... sure didn't bother her when she chose it.

You are very impressed with her actions, walking the walk. But if this is rugswept, it won't be

long until -while I was devastated and posting on TAM, they were having sex- starts running through

your head. 1-Get a D, 2-Live apart while building on R, 3-Be willing to give a little to get #2.

Has she admitted to having sex with him? People don't leave their spouse and kids for an AP

and not plan on having wild sex nightly.

Dirty south? You making fun of Aler-bamii?


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## Asterix

johndoe12299 said:


> I get that. In her case, it's more than just words though. She's taking action. Despite us agreeing to a Nov 1 deadline to leave her office, she's leaving next week after a closing she has. She has a few interviews lined up at other agencies. Agreeing to everything, made more calls to family members.


It's all well and good that she's taking action.

However, Have you considered that she's taking actions ONLY AFTER she realized that all other avenues are closed to her and taking action now is beneficial for HER? She did not consider taking any action, telling you the truth about her cheating and thought process when you were in pain and when you asked for it. She's doing it now because it benefits her.



johndoe12299 said:


> She then proceeds to tell me everything from the beginning where she first started to lose attraction/feel more of a brother/sister relationship to me up to where she is now.


Have you thought about the brother/sister relationship with you that she had in her mind? Have you considered how long it would take for her to get out of that mind set to seeing you as a potential mate? How long would it get for her to feel some sort of desire towards you? How long it would take for her to get to the point so that you can get laid three times in one night?

I think she's doing all this things just so that she can get you to stop the divorce proceedings. Even if she told some of her family, she'll do what most cheaters do and told only a partial truth and also likely painted you to be "not so good guy". 

You really need to read the list that you made where you have all the bad things that she did to you and all the mud that she dragged you through?

What do you think you'd get out of having her back? 

Even if we give her benefit of the doubt and say that she'll have strong desire towards you and be a good companion, to you, how long would you have to wait till she's tired of putting up all the pretenses? Because that's what it'll likely be, a pretense just so that she can have her cushy life back. 

Don't think that you are obligated to get back together with her because she mentioned partial truths to her family and gave you the passwords of her SM/phone etc. She can always buy another (and another) burner phone. She can create finsta after finsta accounts to suit her purpose and you'd be none the wiser.


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## Asterix

@johndoe12299 please ask her about has she considered about how would she feel like having relations with someone that she considers/considered like her brother? 

I most definitely do not want to drag in the old tired tropes of the deep southern families, but this is a valid question. I read it somewhere here that "you cannot manufacture desire" and it'd be a long way to go from considering someone as their brother to having hot and heavy relations three times a night. Just sayin'...


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## johndoe12299

The last 2 weeks we have gone on 2 dates. Have had lots of candid talks. Just taking it one day at a time. I'm not holding anything back, whatever comes to my head I bring it up and discuss. We've done a lot of reading. She is willing to do whatever it takes. I told her i want to see the divorce through because our marriage is dead and anything else we might have would be a new relationship. I straight up just told her i want to protect myself against anything she may do in the future and she gets it. She says she will do whatever I need in order to build trust back.

Of course this could all be just pure desperation and things could go sideways in a year or two; but it will be a much cleaner break now that we are allowing the divorce to go through and start anew.

Problem is I am currently just struggling with knowing if this is what i want. 2 months ago i would have said definitely, but things have changed. I'm in a better headspace now, i received some female attention and was starting to realize that things wouldn't be so bad without her. I just have to ask myself if i'm in it for the comfort or because i truly want to make things work. I think i know the answer but i also don't want to make any rash decisions so I think i will see how this goes in the short term, and just ensure she understands where my head is at.


----------



## johndoe12299

Asterix said:


> @johndoe12299 please ask her about has she considered about how would she feel like having relations with someone that she considers/considered like her brother?
> 
> I most definitely do not want to drag in the old tired tropes of the deep southern families, but this is a valid question. I read it somewhere here that "you cannot manufacture desire" and it'd be a long way to go from considering someone as their brother to having hot and heavy relations three times a night. Just sayin'...


i've read a ton of books since this started and i understand a lot more about what attracts women to men, specifically sexual attraction. I was a nice guy and exhibited none of those qualities, so i get the brother/sister comment. Women don't want to pounce on nice guys. I'm taking a lot of steps to make myself more attractive to the opposite sex and time will tell if that attraction is there. One thing is for certain, I won't sit here waiting long on it, that's for sure.


----------



## johndoe12299

Chuck71 said:


> Proceed with D..... full steam ahead. If she allows you to secure all your assets, 50/50 custody, no
> 
> CS or SS, allow you to be primary parent... then call a truce after the D. Live apart for awhile. Still
> 
> have date nights and even have a family night. You can't miss someone when they're under the
> 
> same roof. She may very well learn from the separation. She could also monkey branch to
> 
> another guy. No better way to know that, than living apart. But the chances of her agreeing to
> 
> everything is slim. If you agree to remain in the same house, she just might go for that. But
> 
> time apart is much needed..... sure didn't bother her when she chose it.
> 
> You are very impressed with her actions, walking the walk. But if this is rugswept, it won't be
> 
> long until -while I was devastated and posting on TAM, they were having sex- starts running through
> 
> your head. 1-Get a D, 2-Live apart while building on R, 3-Be willing to give a little to get #2.
> 
> Has she admitted to having sex with him? People don't leave their spouse and kids for an AP
> 
> and not plan on having wild sex nightly.
> 
> Dirty south? You making fun of Aler-bamii?


Only way to change the way assets are allocated would be to call off divorce, and file a post nuptial, but even lawyer said it's very hard to get rid of CS/SS in a post nuptial. I'm better off just letting the divorce go through.

We are currently living apart and have been for 4 months. She's in a 6 month lease right now so the plan is for her to stay there and will reevaulate at the end of her lease.

Yes she admitted to having sex with him. Nothing rugswept about it. She told me all i asked, and her family knows. We are having 1 date night a week with a family night 1-2x a week.


----------



## manowar

johndoe12299 said:


> I was a nice guy and exhibited none of those qualities, so i get the brother/sister comment. Women don't want to pounce on nice guys.


 I think you have it in you to pull it off (some guys simply can't do it). Maintain that quiet dominance over her. She's got a submissive streak. Can't tell you how far it goes of course. 



johndoe12299 said:


> I told her i want to see the divorce though because our marriage is dead and anything else we might have would be a new relationship.


this is good. Keep her in the grey zone wondering what you want. Start a new relationship if that's what you want. You arent Joe nice guy anymore and she'll look up to you. You'll know it when the woman actually respects you and looks up to you. She may even start buying you stuff just because she wants to. Dont stop her. Let her do it. If this happens you have one job to do. And do it well. On the other hand, she treated you like sh+t. In a fked up way, she also sent you a message to STOP the NICE GUY sh+t.

Keep her around and see what happens. Looks like you are in the driver's seat. Maintain it. I think you are handling it well. I know you'll be told by others to dump her. I guess im saying trust your judgment.


----------



## Harold Demure

I think you are being very sensible in your approach. You should go through with the divorce. You have explained your reasons to your STBXW and she has accepted them.

You are being very honest with her, you don’t have to make a decision by any deadline so why not just see how things go?

One question (apologies if I missed it), is there an expectation of exclusivity during this period? How would you feel if she dated and vica versa?


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> The last 2 weeks we have gone on 2 dates. Have had lots of candid talks. Just taking it one day at a time. I'm not holding anything back, whatever comes to my head I bring it up and discuss. We've done a lot of reading. She is willing to do whatever it takes. I told her i want to see the divorce through because our marriage is dead and anything else we might have would be a new relationship. I straight up just told her i want to protect myself against anything she may do in the future and she gets it. She says she will do whatever I need in order to build trust back.
> 
> Of course this could all be just pure desperation and things could go sideways in a year or two; but it will be a much cleaner break now that we are allowing the divorce to go through and start anew.
> 
> Problem is I am currently just struggling with knowing if this is what i want. 2 months ago i would have said definitely, but things have changed. I'm in a better headspace now, i received some female attention and was starting to realize that things wouldn't be so bad without her. I just have to ask myself if i'm in it for the comfort or because i truly want to make things work. I think i know the answer but i also don't want to make any rash decisions so I think i will see how this goes in the short term, and just ensure she understands where my head is at.


You are correct. Your old marriage is dead. Would you marry her now with all you know? What most don’t see upfront is the betrayal is always gonna be there. Most just want them back without thinking long term. This can change over time.

What happened with her new lover? Did he dump her? That’s an important thing to know.
The other thing is you don’t know where her other man has been. *STD testing would be mandatory for me.*


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## Landofblue

I am glad you plan to complete the D. Working on reconciliation in my mind doesn’t even START until the WS has actually COMPLETED the work they need to do in order to fix what was broken in her to make cheating a possibility and to become an absolutely safe partner. That takes months and more likely, years to do.

has she even started IC? If I were you I would tell her you’re not even willing to discuss the possibility of rebuilding a relationship with her until she’s had at least 6 months of therapy with a specialist in Infidelity. And that if she’s willing you’d come w her to the first therapy interview to make sure the counselor has the right views of cheating and isn’t an apologist for infidelity.

keep strong. You have all the time in the world. Complete the divorce and then decide what you want and need and communicate it honestly and thoroughly to your wife.


----------



## Blondilocks

I think you're in for a world of hurt. Best of luck.


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## Chuck71

See the D through. Be aware she will try to get you to stop it. As @Marc878 said.... where's loverboy? Did

he dump her? That could very well be the question which is truly never answered fully. A true R takes time,

years and years. Do you think you could ever trust her again? Keep in mind....if your try to R and it just

doesn't work, yes you can leave at any time. But look at the additional years you have spent with a WW.

You can't get those years back. IMHO.... you want to date her after the D but you also want to date others

as well.


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## Evinrude58

A woman that cheats on her husband, which would be you....... really isn’t worth dating.
You’d be wise to explore your options with women that at least aren’t known to be low on character.
Why would you date your own wife?
It’s not like you’re checking her out to see how she really is, if you like her, etc. you KNOW how she is, and how she is ain’t all that great.
Glad you’re at least divorcing her. She at least knows you’re man enough to dish out some consequences.


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## Chuck71

He has a long game in mind


----------



## Openminded

Blondilocks said:


> I think you're in for a world of hurt. Best of luck.


One hundred percent agree with that.


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## Jamieboy

I think there’s a saying about when a man says it’s over, it’s not but when a woman calls it quits, she means it. I believe that 100%


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## Asterix

Marc878 said:


> What happened with her new lover? Did he dump her?


I have a feeling how things went with her new lover 

Most likely he was more than happy to play with her while she was someone else's problem. When the option of making that his problem became available, he possibly declined and here she is trying to see if she can worm her way back into her old life.

I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to come back again once JoneDoe's wife patches things with johnDoe.


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## Asterix

Evinrude58 said:


> A woman that cheats on her husband, which would be you....... really isn’t worth dating.


@johndoe12299 I can't emphasize this enough. Consider a figurative analogy, say she cut one of your legs off, would you want to be in a position where there's a possibility that she can cut the other leg off?

I think it is non-negotiable that you make sure that the divorce goes through. 

You got to realize that it's not only the affair that you need to think about.You also need to think about all the lying to your face every single day while she was cheating on you. That is something difficult to get over with.


----------



## farsidejunky

johndoe12299 said:


> The last 2 weeks we have gone on 2 dates. Have had lots of candid talks. Just taking it one day at a time. I'm not holding anything back, whatever comes to my head I bring it up and discuss. We've done a lot of reading. She is willing to do whatever it takes. I told her i want to see the divorce through because our marriage is dead and anything else we might have would be a new relationship. I straight up just told her i want to protect myself against anything she may do in the future and she gets it. She says she will do whatever I need in order to build trust back.
> 
> Of course this could all be just pure desperation and things could go sideways in a year or two; but it will be a much cleaner break now that we are allowing the divorce to go through and start anew.
> 
> Problem is I am currently just struggling with knowing if this is what i want. 2 months ago i would have said definitely, but things have changed. I'm in a better headspace now, i received some female attention and was starting to realize that things wouldn't be so bad without her. I just have to ask myself if i'm in it for the comfort or because i truly want to make things work. I think i know the answer but i also don't want to make any rash decisions so I think i will see how this goes in the short term, and just ensure she understands where my head is at.


You don't have to know right away. 

It sounds like you have a plan. Execute it, and see where things take you with your WW post divorce. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Evinrude58

Asterix said:


> I have a feeling how things went with her new lover
> 
> Most likely he was more than happy to play with her while she was someone else's problem. When the option of making that his problem became available, he possibly declined and here she is trying to see if she can worm her way back into her old life.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to come back again once JoneDoe's wife patches things with johnDoe.


A very likely prediction and hypothesis


----------



## Asterix

@johndoe12299 , before you consider going on another date with her, please read the first five pages of this thread thoroughly. Pay extra attention to the details about her lies and gaslighting. 

Kindly,
-Your voice of reason


----------



## Livvie

I just read the entire thread. 

OP I am surprised you are considering a future with this person. 

As the above poster also said, I suggest you read the thread again to refresh your memory of who you are, once again, choosing to date.

You were kicking yourself for ignoring red flags the first time you got together with her. Now you are making an INFORMED decision to sign up for more.

As an aside, I will give you a female point of view, since your thread also discussed a possible future with someone else someday. An emotionally healthy stable woman, in the future, will likely think twice about becoming seriously involved with you when she learns about your willingness to be re- involved with your ex after what she did. The woman will sit back and ponder your dysfunction (in signing up for more, given your ex's toxic traits) and weakness when it comes to her. Much more of a turn off than being a single dad.


----------



## johndoe12299

It's freaking hard with the kids involved. I keep flip flopping on what to do. Everything you guys are saying is right, then i hear her and i start thinking that this could be different. And i'll never know if she's telling me the truth about how things ended. She says she "woke up" one day and realized how much she scrwed up, but there's no way to tell if that's true or if the OM dumped her. Really, that's just a small piece to this puzzle anyway.

The poster that asked if i would date this person without our history and just knowing what she's capable of...that hit hard. I guess at the end of the day it is just really hard to break off this relationship knowing the shockwaves it will cause, mostly with our kids. Part of me feels like i owe it to them to give this a shot and do things differently.


----------



## Jamieboy

johndoe12299 said:


> It's freaking hard with the kids involved. I keep flip flopping on what to do. Everything you guys are saying is right, then i hear her and i start thinking that this could be different. And i'll never know if she's telling me the truth about how things ended. She says she "woke up" one day and realized how much she scrwed up, but there's no way to tell if that's true or if the OM dumped her. Really, that's just a small piece to this puzzle anyway.
> 
> The poster that asked if i would date this person without our history and just knowing what she's capable of...that hit hard. I guess at the end of the day it is just really hard to break off this relationship knowing the shockwaves it will cause, mostly with our kids. Part of me feels like i owe it to them to give this a shot and do things differently.


Dude you didnt do this, she did, your kids will understand when they’re older and respect you for it. You can still be a good dad and her a good mum. It’s possible that she woke up, but be honest with yourself, how likely is that? Also what happens when she falls asleep again?

I have said this before, but bares repeating, personal change is really really hard, you might think she’s going to be different, you might think you’re going to be all no more mr nice guy, but the old patterns will reassert themselves without massive effort on both your parts.

Are you willing to gamble your life on a known loser? I’m sorry if this sounds harsh, but you have been a respect worthy guy in your handling of things so far. So I think you have the strength to follow this through and be happier and stronger as a result.

it’s your life at the end of the day, so take the advice with as much salt as you want, and if things don’t work out, it still won’t throw any shade on you


----------



## Openminded

My opinion (speaking as a female) is that she got dumped and now she wants you back to make life easier. It’s been obvious for quite awhile that you want her back. Only you know the real answer as to why you would but I do think you’ll reconcile and very likely live to regret it so take your time. My guess is that she’ll try to lock you down sooner than you’re ready for — to make sure you don’t escape. Don’t buy it. Lots and lots and lots of time benefits you, not her. Keep that in mind.


----------



## Kamstel2

I think you are handling it as best as a man can.

are you two saying you are exclusive or are you going out with other women?

I think you are absolutely correct in going through with the divorce. You were right when you told her that the old marriage is dead and that she killed it. I think that starting a new relationship with her after the divorce is finalized is a good idea to see if you are interested in her in thus new relationship.

but I also believe that Openminded may be correct in to the true nature of the breakup with her boyfriend/lover. I would suggest that you tell her that you will be making an appointment for her to take a polygraph test to verify that you have been given the entire truth. Her reaction might give you all you need to know. You might also want to keep an eye on her internet searches for phrases like “how to beat a polygraph”, etc.

once again, I think you are doing great. Keep moving straight ahead out of this hell that she put you in.

good luck and stay strong.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> It's freaking hard with the kids involved. I keep flip flopping on what to do. Everything you guys are saying is right, then i hear her and i start thinking that this could be different. And i'll never know if she's telling me the truth about how things ended. She says she "woke up" one day and realized how much she scrwed up, but there's no way to tell if that's true or if the OM dumped her. Really, that's just a small piece to this puzzle anyway.
> 
> The poster that asked if i would date this person without our history and just knowing what she's capable of...that hit hard. I guess at the end of the day it is just really hard to break off this relationship knowing the shockwaves it will cause, mostly with our kids. Part of me feels like i owe it to them to give this a shot and do things differently.


Cut the contact. I know two who coparent using the grey rock methods. It only works if you use it.


----------



## Imnobodynew

Why do you have to make that decision right now? Get a divorce. Separate your connection to the old marriage that died. If she's serious she will stick around. Or conversely you don't have to jump on this... let the divorce drag out and see what she does. It takes time to even trust a druggie or an alcoholic to prove they are really trying to get clean
. Why is this situation different? Why not work through it slowly and with diligence.. as you said it's a big decision?

The reason you want to even jump back in, I would presume, is that you are still enamored with the old image of her. And this new epiphany is reminiscent of that I image.

Let's eliminate your excuses.
1 you proved to yourself you could raise the kids without her. Kids are resilient. It's better to live in 2 homes that are halfway decent then a single that's fully disfunctional?
2. You proved you dont need her as validation for your security
3. You can move on.


And the real question until she proves otherwise like many people on these forums have show in bad rs what's to stop her from 1 year from now saying, the sex isnt good enough, your not good enough, it's not you it's me I need to move on, etc...? You have no basis for investment your most precious commodity in this relation, you time(its way to limted).

If a company goes bankrupt and they ask you for 100k and they will return it 10x fold, would you invest? What if you already gave them 100k and they squandered it and do not offer you thier financials, buisness plans, and what they are going to do differently. They show, until the bankruptcy that they havent done anything differently except cross a few ts and dot a few i's? Would you really give them your last 100k? Some might.. because they are desperate to prove that they weren't wrong the first time.

OP take your time. There is no rush. Sit down and evaluate actions that are befitting of your long term investment. The actions must be at the same level of your what you value yourself at. If you dont you will grow resentful. Right now your view of yourself is still affected by he actions... wait u till you get your own issues together before you try to make that choice.


Sorry for typos and bad grammar lol Forgive me. I hope my point got across and it was helpful.


----------



## johndoe12299

so to the folks saying take your time...how do we do this? And to the others asking about dating other people while this is going on...i'm of the opinion that it's either work on your marriage or cut ties...there's no working on your marriage while dating other people, imo.

Just date her and take it slowly? see how things to up until divorce and after?


----------



## Kamstel2

Tell her that the divorce is going to happen no matter what.

she is being demoted from wife to girlfriend, and it is still up in the air as to whether she will be further demoted to ex-girlfriend.

Have you to talked about exclusivity while you are in this stage? Has she made any promises?

not sure how much faith I would put into any promise she makes up you around exclusivity, as she has already proven that she has no problem breaking a vow.

good luck, stay strong, and do what you must FOR YOU!!!


----------



## johndoe12299

yep, divorce is definitely going through. We discussed it last week and she said she'll do "whatever" she needs to do to build trust and what makes me comfortable.


----------



## johndoe12299

side note...has anyone iTT read 'Women's infidelity"? Talk about eye opening. I hate the title of it actually because i feel like everyone would benefit from reading this book, not just people dealing with infidelity.

I've done a crap ton of reading the last 3 months:

Hold on to your nuts
Marriage man life primer
no more mr nice guy
womens infidelity 1 & 2
how to help your spouse recover from an affair
the dead bedroom fix
the rational male

next up is His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters

any other recs?


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> so to the folks saying take your time...how do we do this? And to the others asking about dating other people while this is going on...i'm of the opinion that it's either work on your marriage or cut ties...there's no working on your marriage while dating other people, imo.
> 
> Just date her and take it slowly? see how things to up until divorce and after?


I would not introduce others into this right now and would expect her to do the same.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> side note...has anyone iTT read 'Women's infidelity"? Talk about eye opening. I hate the title of it actually because i feel like everyone would benefit from reading this book, not just people dealing with infidelity.
> 
> I've done a crap ton of reading the last 3 months:
> 
> Hold on to your nuts
> Marriage man life primer
> no more mr nice guy
> womens infidelity 1 & 2
> how to help your spouse recover from an affair
> the dead bedroom fix
> the rational male
> 
> next up is His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters
> 
> any other recs?


Take anything with a grain of salt.


----------



## Chuck71

johndoe12299 said:


> It's freaking hard with the kids involved. I keep flip flopping on what to do. Everything you guys are saying is right, then i hear her and i start thinking that this could be different.


Okay..... I "thought" you were riding out the D and then moving on.....Lil story for you JD and I've told it

a dozen times on here. When 1st love and I broke up, I was miserable. I did the begging / pleading to

no avail. I got on with my life, as did she. Right when I started to connect with someone else, she came

after me like a freight train. -Maybe it's better the second time around- We got back together...it was not

the same, not by a long shot. The break up was in spring 1990, and we were through by beginning of 1991.

You can copy exactly what I said above and replace the person with 2nd love...and change the dates to

1993 and 1996. Do you see a pattern JD? It never was the same.

Your WW left you high and dry with two young kids....and she abandoned the kids for how many days? My XW

pulled almost the same thing your WW did and I never even cared if mine cheated or not, just her walking out

was enough for me. I have never regretted that decision. Our DDay was nine years ago next month.

JD....How long do you think it will be before this happens again? The reason I, and others, stress living

apart is you will see a different "her" than you are seeing right now. She will always be a part of your life

because of the kids.... but you don't have to allow her to ruin your life.

JD....the way she is acting now.... has she ever acted this way before? Maybe if she put as much into the M

before, as she is trying to now.... she never would have given AP the time of day. But she abandoned you, her

kids and wanted to be a naughty girl. When the AP was through with her, she came back home in shame.

If your best bud from HS was in this situation.... what would you tell him?


----------



## Blondilocks

You have two littles. One of you needs to be a stable parent. Guess who isn't up to, doesn't want to be nor applying to be a full-time parent?

Don't emotionally jerk these kids around with the on/off routine. She's proved she doesn't want a family full-time and even told you. Believe her.


----------



## Chuck71

JD....the only reason why she is love-bombing and texting you all day and night is she does not

want you to have time to "think." The more time you have, to "think," the more time you have to

evaluate all the crap she did to you, and the kids. Remember Day #7, when you were devastated

she left you and the kids wondered where mommy was? She was on AP like a cheap suit.

Remember that....


----------



## Chuck71

johndoe12299 said:


> She met with lawyer last week and suddenly she wants the kids, now that she gets CS and doesn't have to "stress how she will make money and can enjoy kids more".


Post #68...... This was your WW.....at first no SS nor CS. Then she wanted SS and CS. In her illogical head space,

she miraculously thought her and AP would settle down, and be a family. Crazy, yes... but look who we are talking

about. Since APs live-in was the breadwinner, WW thought she would have to be as well. But... she's got the AP!

WW wins, APs g/f loses, her BH (you) loses. She's got her AP, SS, CS...she's starting to bring in a paycheck.... -OMG

my new life will just be super duper fab- In her mind....she believes this will all play out perfectly.

JD..... I've been on these boards nine years. Your WWs thoughts are actually par for the course.

While your WW had all these dreams in her head, the AP began second guessing everything. -Now she wants

her kids 50%, I'll have to watch them while she's at work, we can't have sex much when they're here, she will

want me to go with them (WW / kids) as a family.... etc....- AP ponders this for a few weeks -Oh hell.... I had it

better with g/f, she works, I mooch, and no kids!- He bailed on WW. After three days of tissue induced snot

slinging, WW realized her fantasy was gone. She composed herself, tucked tail, and crawled back to YOU.

She was going to give you up for Jefferson Darcy. Let that sink in JD. You were in her rear view mirror.

Her childhood has a lot to do with her actions. Your WW is stunted emotionally. I will pull a previous post

to explain this.


----------



## Chuck71

#212 · 5 mo ago 

Jeff...... if you look back at past threads one thing you will find with WS is the fact most suffered through very traumatized childhoods. Now that alone does not destine them to be a WS. But what makes it more likely is the fact they never dealt with the trauma from their youth. It's human nature to avoid returning to a place of pain. But it is very unhealthy. If a said WS faced their first trauma at age 11 and it was never resolved or dealt with internally....that said person becomes emotionally stunted. It's like they stop growing emotionally.

Most learn the ability to cover it up extremely well as they reach adulthood. On the surface, it is not seen. But whenever this person faces stress, depression, or a life changing event, they will revert back to the emotionally stunted 11 year old. This is why so many people are amazed at the odd behavior a WS will exhibit.

When one grows up in low or no boundaries they are grounded in this ideal. Now it is put on a backburner when they "fall into chemical love." No drugs but the dopamine's rush, the high of falling. This is a catalyst in why even some healthy M fail too. Once you're M, starting a family, career.... it's easy to get away from "woo'ing" your spouse like you did in the beginning.

But if you look closely.... those with no boundaries start showing mini red flags not too long into the LTR. The mini's aren't "end the LTR potential" alone but many mini red flags do begin adding up to major. People "bandage themselves up really good" during the early LTR stages. Slowly.... at around six months the bandages start falling off. One by one by three by seven. Now when one is "falling in love" it can easily look over mini red flags. But the WS will counter a bandage coming off with something their spouse extremely enjoys. If the spouse is not paying attention, years can pass, M, children.... and the WS feels secure enough to take off all the bandages. By then....it's too late. Can't just walk away then.


----------



## seadoug105

My wife and I are very close with a couple where the wife was a SAHM for close to a decade and then became a real estate agent. 5 years later she is very successful (at least successful enough to need an assistant), never partnered with anyone just built her business on her own; with the loving support of her husband. 

In those 5yrs she has seen and learned a lot. The biggest thing she said she learn, was you have to do it the right way building the foundation and fundamentals. Short cuts ultimately lead to struggles and ultimately failure. She will talk to other agents and try to advise them when they complain about struggling for/with business. And whether single married or partnered, almost all of them say “You don’t understand you have ‘JD’!” She will point out that her husband ‘JD’ isn’t a licensed broker and can‘t do her work for her. Almost everyone tells, “but he supports you every step of the way! He encourages you. Hell he will even puts your signs out if your running late.”

it’s a long winded way of getting to my point… maybe she just realized she needs you (or someone supportive) to be successful in her work. Lord knows loser boy wasn’t gonna cut it. Wouldn’t surprise me if he were got jealous of deals she worked on. (a lot of selfish people in real estate… or sales as a whole). You might just find yourself being her fall back to build up her career. 

…And of course she is willing to leave the office/firm she is at…. Because she has a reputation… while there may be a lot of selfish people in real estate, but there are a lot of good natured honest people. And those are the ones that drive the bulk of the business; with repeat clientele and referrals rolling in. They are also not really gonna want to work with an agent who is know for abandoning her supportive husband and young children for the office loser.

not gonna tell you what to do… just pointing out another potential reality to her return, so you can protect yourself.


----------



## Evinrude58

When one has been shown that their wife is perfectly willing to leave her husband for another man, lie about it incessantly, and actually SHOW him his true value to her—-there is no freaking way she is worthy of a “date”. Nor should OP, for his own mental health, entertain such a horrible thought.

OP, her words are as hollow as her vows were to you. Believe who she showed herself to be. Believe how valuable you were to her when she THOUGHT Mr Wonderful was THE MAN


----------



## johndoe12299

With all this being said, what makes someone worthy of R? A while back I asked if some of you don't believe in R at all, which seems to be the case for a lot in this thread. For those that do, what are the signs?

It seems like my W is...she's saying all the right things, taking action, taking full responsibility, etc...

She was scheduled to have a talk with her broker this morning about leaving the brokerage, and I beat around the bush for a bit but basically just told her that I don't feel 100% into it. Honeslty I don't want her making career decisions based on something I'm not 100% on board with. I don't know, I just can't get there. I told her i still don't fully believe the story about how things ended with her and OM and that she is still the person that lies and cheats; and that it doesn't change overnight. Harsh, but i was just being honest. I didn't want to come off as judgemental but i basically just said I can't fix her, and it has to come from within. She had a messed up childhood, terrible father, and her mom had a revolving door of crap stepdads. Her mom had to lie, steal and cheat just to support her 5 kids at 21 and it's what my wife grew up with. Good post Chuck, it's just so frustrating. The nice guy in me thought i could "fix" that. Some people just get dealt a ****ty hand in life and it pains me that i have to end this relationshp because of her **** luck in childhood. 

So...we pretty much left it at that. Such a stupid situation. It's not something i want, but i just think it's necessary for the long term health of everyone involved. I hate that she put everyone in this situation but as comfortable as it makes me feel I don't think taking her back is the right decision at this time.


----------



## Livvie

Well, given the facts of your situation, no way I'd consider any relationship with her again. 

Your relationship wasn't horrendous, you weren't abusive to her or had done something really bad to her (not that that would be a valid reason to cheat).

Her character is that she is fickle, damaged, zero loyalty, zero care, zero compassion, or morals and had no problems CHEATING on you and LEAVING you. 

This wasn't a woman trying to escape an abusive, heinous, horrible marriage.


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## Nailhead

johndoe12299 said:


> The last 2 weeks we have gone on 2 dates. Have had lots of candid talks. Just taking it one day at a time. I'm not holding anything back, whatever comes to my head I bring it up and discuss. We've done a lot of reading. She is willing to do whatever it takes. I told her i want to see the divorce through because our marriage is dead and anything else we might have would be a new relationship. I straight up just told her i want to protect myself against anything she may do in the future and she gets it. She says she will do whatever I need in order to build trust back.
> 
> Of course this could all be just pure desperation and things could go sideways in a year or two; but it will be a much cleaner break now that we are allowing the divorce to go through and start anew.
> 
> Problem is I am currently just struggling with knowing if this is what i want. 2 months ago i would have said definitely, but things have changed. I'm in a better headspace now, i received some female attention and was starting to realize that things wouldn't be so bad without her. I just have to ask myself if i'm in it for the comfort or because i truly want to make things work. I think i know the answer but i also don't want to make any rash decisions so I think i will see how this goes in the short term, and just ensure she understands where my head is at.



Maybe at this point you should ask her what is in it for you. This reconciliation. She know what she is getting. As you said, things are not so bad without her. What is so good with her?


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## johndoe12299

Side note, she just got a 1.5 and 2.5M listings in the last couple weeks...so any thoughts of her coming back for financial security have been somewhat abated... all that does is convince me that maybe she is back in for the right reasons...but it's just constant doubt hovering over my head.


----------



## Nailhead

johndoe12299 said:


> With all this being said, what makes someone worthy of R? A while back I asked if some of you don't believe in R at all, which seems to be the case for a lot in this thread. For those that do, what are the signs?
> 
> It seems like my W is...she's saying all the right things, taking action, taking full responsibility, etc...
> 
> She was scheduled to have a talk with her broker this morning about leaving the brokerage, and I beat around the bush for a bit but basically just told her that I don't feel 100% into it. Honeslty I don't want her making career decisions based on something I'm not 100% on board with. I don't know, I just can't get there. I told her i still don't fully believe the story about how things ended with her and OM and that she is still the person that lies and cheats; and that it doesn't change overnight. Harsh, but i was just being honest. I didn't want to come off as judgemental but i basically just said I can't fix her, and it has to come from within. She had a messed up childhood, terrible father, and her mom had a revolving door of crap stepdads. Her mom had to lie, steal and cheat just to support her 5 kids at 21 and it's what my wife grew up with. Good post Chuck, it's just so frustrating. The nice guy in me thought i could "fix" that. Some people just get dealt a **ty hand in life and it pains me that i have to end this relationshp because of her ** luck in childhood.
> 
> So...we pretty much left it at that. Such a stupid situation. It's not something i want, but i just think it's necessary for the long term health of everyone involved. I hate that she put everyone in this situation but as comfortable as it makes me feel I don't think taking her back is the right decision at this time.



This scenario reads as if, "it sounds to good to be true". She confessed, will do anything to make it right, reading all the books, going to IC, just woke up realizing how she screwed up, and has told the family. It is almost a text book response. I see no remorse from her written in your posts. 

You are still on the fence. That is good. The last time you got off the fence and went all in you got screwed. Slow it down. Your wife appears to be steamrolling her way back in with this miraculous awaking of her wrong doing.


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## Nailhead

johndoe12299 said:


> Side note, she just got a 1.5 and 2.5M listings in the last couple weeks...so any thoughts of her coming back for financial security have been somewhat abated... all that does is convince me that maybe she is back in for the right reasons...but it's just constant doubt hovering over my head.


Let her close on these homes. She will need the money if come tomorrow this smoke and mirrors of a turn around is not sitting right.


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## johndoe12299

I guess i left that out. She has been remorseful. She's expressed time and time agin she's sorry for ruining our marriage. She handwrote a letter to my parents giving them the details and apologizing to them. I have yet to give the letter to them though; as i want to be sure about all this before doing so.


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## johndoe12299

I think the poster that said we just need to be apart for a while hit the nail on the head(no pun intended @Nailhead lol)...i don't really believe in fate but i feel like if we are going to be together, we have to first be truly separate.


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## farsidejunky

johndoe12299 said:


> Side note, she just got a 1.5 and 2.5M listings in the last couple weeks...so any thoughts of her coming back for financial security have been somewhat abated... all that does is convince me that maybe she is back in for the right reasons...but it's just constant doubt hovering over my head.


This is a fair point, and does show that she doesn't particularly need you. Also important is her willingness to divorce (at least for now) to protect you. 

That said there is a difference between returning to you...and staying with you. Think 5 years from now. What will be different?

Look, man. It is clear you want to reconcile. On that, most posters on this site will encourage you to divorce, as you have seen.

So here is the hard question:

What have you seen besides her word (which is obviously not worth anything) that she will become a safe partner? Because she isn't right now, no matter what she may say. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

Nailhead said:


> This scenario reads as if, "it sounds to good to be true". She confessed, will do anything to make it right, reading all the books, going to IC, just woke up realizing how she screwed up, and has told the family. It is almost a text book response. I see no remorse from her written in your posts.
> 
> You are still on the fence. That is good. The last time you got off the fence and went all in you got screwed. Slow it down. Your wife appears to be steamrolling her way back in with this miraculous awaking of her wrong doing.


In fairness, your entire first paragraph is illustrating actions that demonstrate remorse...especially the self exposure...followed by your statement that there has been no remorse. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Nailhead

johndoe12299 said:


> I think the poster that said we just need to be apart for a while hit the nail on the head(no pun intended @Nailhead lol)...i don't really believe in fate but i feel like if we are going to be together, we have to first be truly separate.


In life there is risk and reward. You are taking all the risk in this possible reconciliation. What reward is in this for you?


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## johndoe12299

farsidejunky said:


> In fairness, your entire first paragraph is illustrating actions that demonstrate remorse...especially the self exposure...followed by your statement that there has been no remorse.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Not sure where i wrote there has been no remorse. Definitely a typo.

It's water under the bridge. After our conversation this morning it's over. I think it's best to just go through with D and take this time to ourselves. I feel like **** for confusing the **** out of my daughter with this back and forth nonsense.


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## johndoe12299

Nailhead said:


> In life there is risk and reward. You are taking all the risk in this possible reconciliation. What reward is in this for you?


Just thinking out loud, but the reward is being in a relationship that is 10x more intimiate and close than we had in the past with someone who knows the deepest parts of me, and I of her.

I can get that with someone else, but it takes time, and the risk will be there with this person as well. Will she grow tired and leave in 5/10/14 years? Part of me feels like that risk is with anyone, so why not take the risk with someone that i already have a deep connection with?


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## johndoe12299

Is it selfish of me to wonder what it would be like to date other women? That is in the back of my head too. Prior to her coming back, there was the cincinatti incident, but i also had 2 dates lined up, which i canceled after hearing from wife. I texted the cincinatti girl for a bit after our meetup. It was just nice to talk to someone. Now, i have that in the back of my head(the what if) so that is affecting my decision. I guess it's what people in affairs think, "what if the grass is greener". I just feel like i owe it to myself to explore now, given everything that's happened. Part of me feels selfish to think that way. I see it as wanting to meet random women to satisfy my own desires instead of doing what's best for the kids and trying to make this work...


----------



## Kaliber

johndoe12299 said:


> With all this being said, what makes someone worthy of R? A while back I asked if some of you don't believe in R at all, which seems to be the case for a lot in this thread. For those that do, what are the signs?
> 
> It seems like my W is...she's saying all the right things, taking action, taking full responsibility, etc...
> 
> She was scheduled to have a talk with her broker this morning about leaving the brokerage, and I beat around the bush for a bit but basically just told her that I don't feel 100% into it. Honeslty I don't want her making career decisions based on something I'm not 100% on board with. I don't know, I just can't get there. I told her i still don't fully believe the story about how things ended with her and OM and that she is still the person that lies and cheats; and that it doesn't change overnight. Harsh, but i was just being honest. I didn't want to come off as judgemental but i basically just said I can't fix her, and it has to come from within. She had a messed up childhood, terrible father, and her mom had a revolving door of crap stepdads. Her mom had to lie, steal and cheat just to support her 5 kids at 21 and it's what my wife grew up with. Good post Chuck, it's just so frustrating. The nice guy in me thought i could "fix" that. Some people just get dealt a **ty hand in life and it pains me that i have to end this relationshp because of her ** luck in childhood.
> 
> So...we pretty much left it at that. Such a stupid situation. It's not something i want, but i just think it's necessary for the long term health of everyone involved. I hate that she put everyone in this situation but as comfortable as it makes me feel I don't think taking her back is the right decision at this time.


@johndoe12299, It doesn't matter what we say, it only matters if you think (NOT FEAL) it's right for YOU!
The first lesson I learned in the (Strong Successful Man) school is have a plan and execute it and be decisive about it!
Like many successful CEOs when they have a business plan they execute it, if the results are not satisfying, they change their plans immediately with something completely new, they don't go in circles and no place for Sunk Cost Fallacy in their books!
Remember you are johndoe12299 v2.0 now, the strong, dominant, decisive man, fake it if you must (Fake it until you make it!)

You have a plan don't you?
You said you are divorcing then reconciling, so stick to it, if the results are not satisfying than change it completely!
That means you need to approach it just like a CEO of a company that is struggling to remain in business, he needs to take risks but also fires half of the company employees (destroying many families), no room for emotions or they will all sink and die!
If you plan to go through your plan you need to be strong like that CEO, strong and calculated in front of your wife, she needs to see you in that state, she needs to see that you have a plan, that you are strong and know *what you want!*

And in your plan you need to have game!
Meaning have sex if you want to, call her and tell her you want her, let her come over and... smash!
Be dominant in bed, don't ask, do what you want!
Never let her see you indecisive or emotionally weak or vulnerable!

Or

Move on with your life, with something new and exciting, because reconciling with cheater is selling yourself short (My recommendation)!


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## johndoe12299

thank you. My biggest hangup is making all these requests of her, having her leave her brokerage, etc...when i'm not 100% sure this is what i want and I don't know when I'll know that


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## Chuck71

It's 10x more intense because it's love bombing


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## johndoe12299

lol I am a mess. i feel like everyone here is just reading this, shaking their hand and facepalming.


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## Nailhead

johndoe12299 said:


> Just thinking out loud, but the reward is being in a relationship that is 10x more intimiate and close than we had in the past with someone who knows the deepest parts of me, and I of her.
> 
> I can get that with someone else, but it takes time, and the risk will be there with this person as well. Will she grow tired and leave in 5/10/14 years? Part of me feels like that risk is with anyone, so why not take the risk with someone that i already have a deep connection with?


So this is more "comfortable" for you than starting anew with another. Understandable with the history. Just....what has occurred will be in the back of your mind from here on out. If that is something you can accept, she seems genuine with reconciling then I hope it works out for you.


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## Nailhead

johndoe12299 said:


> lol I am a mess. i feel like everyone here is just reading this, shaking their hand and facepalming.


Not really, if she is genuinely on the level and you are open to it there is nothing stopping you. Just advise her this is not 100% in the bag. Things could change in an instant.


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## Openminded

Reconciliation doesn’t work for many — and that includes those who manage to stay married until the end. Having been through it, and having been on TAM for many years, I almost never recommend it. A few here have succeeded, with a great deal of work, but there are a lot that have not and there are plenty of reasons for that. Recovering from betrayal is the hardest thing you will ever do. You can never trust the way you once did because now you know what they’re capable of. 

You have always come across to me as desperate to reconcile and very codependent (yes, you are a mess — that’s just one part of what infidelity does). If that’s the message you’ve given your daughter, that was a mistake because at this point you don’t know if reconciliation would work or not. You need time to focus on you without rushing into this. Let the divorce go through. See how things process. Maybe you’ll get back together and maybe you won’t — time will tell.


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## Chuck71

*Part of me feels like that risk is with anyone, so why not take the risk with someone that i already have a deep connection with?*

Who cheated on you, left you, left her kids behind to shack up with a mooch. You can do A LOT better


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## Chuck71

*doing what's best for the kids and trying to make this work.*

With her recent track record...... JFC are you serious?..


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## farsidejunky

johndoe12299 said:


> lol I am a mess. i feel like everyone here is just reading this, shaking their hand and facepalming.


Worry less about how you feel about what we think of you...it is your life after all...and more about how you feel about what you want from life.

Stop worrying about pleasing the masses of TAM. If you make poor decisions or sound ones, our lives will still go on unchanged. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> With all this being said, what makes someone worthy of R? A while back I asked if some of you don't believe in R at all, which seems to be the case for a lot in this thread. For those that do, what are the signs?
> 
> It seems like my W is...she's saying all the right things, taking action, taking full responsibility, etc...
> 
> She was scheduled to have a talk with her broker this morning about leaving the brokerage, and I beat around the bush for a bit but basically just told her that I don't feel 100% into it. Honeslty I don't want her making career decisions based on something I'm not 100% on board with. I don't know, I just can't get there. I told her i still don't fully believe the story about how things ended with her and OM and that she is still the person that lies and cheats; and that it doesn't change overnight. Harsh, but i was just being honest. I didn't want to come off as judgemental but i basically just said I can't fix her, and it has to come from within. She had a messed up childhood, terrible father, and her mom had a revolving door of crap stepdads. Her mom had to lie, steal and cheat just to support her 5 kids at 21 and it's what my wife grew up with. Good post Chuck, it's just so frustrating. The nice guy in me thought i could "fix" that. Some people just get dealt a **ty hand in life and it pains me that i have to end this relationshp because of her ** luck in childhood.
> 
> So...we pretty much left it at that. Such a stupid situation. It's not something i want, but i just think it's necessary for the long term health of everyone involved. I hate that she put everyone in this situation but as comfortable as it makes me feel I don't think taking her back is the right decision at this time.


R meaning reconciliation and not rugsweeping to be successful has to have the correct basics. Even then there are no guarantees. Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior.
Like a lot I don’t think you see her clearly. Time may tell though.
My wife and her sister had a crappy childhood. That did not translate into them being crappy people. However, if you’re looking for an excuse I guess that’ll work.
You don’t mind letting someone give you a crappy life then knock yourself out. At the end of the day it’s your life so do what you want with it.


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## Marc878

For peace of mind I would investigate if her and her boyfriend are still together. If not, what happened. Did he dump her or did she wake up to reality. These things make a huge difference.

Most here are seeing you wanting her back no matter what. That’s never a good sign. Repeated infidelity happens. No matter what you do won’t affect me at all. I’m just projecting on what I’ve seen and know.


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## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> Hey all, thank you for all the advice and words.
> 
> Just for full transparency, she hasn't completely abandoned the kids. She has picked them up from day care some days and spent the afternoons with them, until she leaves at night to go back to her place. She calls to tell them goodnight, etc. *Although they have only slept with her 2 nights of the last 33. *The rest were at my house with me. Just wanted to get that out there; it's not a situation of full blown abandonment, fwiw.


This to me is the most telling part. Most decent mothers will look out after their kids. 
See what is versus what you want to see. *This was her abandoning her kids for her new boyfriend.*


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## Chuck71

JD......what was your childhood like with your parents / siblings? Are you indecisive often?

If so.... how do you make major decisions? Do you seek approval from others? 

JD...... @Openminded is spot on..... you were talking the talk about moving on without her.......

until she came back, pleading to boot. If you want to D and begin a R.... go ahead. But you're

setting yourself up to get hurt again. Live apart for a good while. The first time she doesn't get

what she wants..... she will again, show you who she really is


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## Asterix

johndoe12299 said:


> And i'll never know if she's telling me the truth about how things ended.


One think you know FOR SURE at this point is that she's an expert at lying to your face. So, I would start with the presumption that she's lying to you and will continue to lie to you. Because now she is in a relationship salvage mode. So, she's only thinking of her own interests and acting in a way that are harmful to your interests. 

Think of it this way, the shockwave that will likely cause to your kids lives has been created by her own actions. It is not being caused by you trying to protect yourself. You got to keep that in mind. She should have thought of how her cheating is going to affect her kid's lives.


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## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> It's freaking hard with the kids involved. I keep flip flopping on what to do. Everything you guys are saying is right, then i hear her and i start thinking that this could be different. And i'll never know if she's telling me the truth about how things ended. *She says she "woke up" one day and realized how much she scrwed up, but there's no way to tell if that's true or if the OM dumped her. Really, that's just a small piece to this puzzle anyway.*
> 
> The poster that asked if i would date this person without our history and just knowing what she's capable of...that hit hard. I guess at the end of the day it is just really hard to break off this relationship knowing the shockwaves it will cause, mostly with our kids. Part of me feels like i owe it to them to give this a shot and do things differently.


Nope, its an important thing to know. If her boyfriend dumped her she’s looking for a plan B. Which is you.

Think back she wanted to talk to you about getting back together before and then blew you off for something else.


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## Marc878

I’ve seen this more than I care to remember. The new boyfriend wants a piece of ass but not everything that comes with it. The kids aren’t his, etc.

If it were me and I was even contemplating an attempt at R I’d call him up and ask. You may not get the truth but it’s worth a shot IMO.

I would bet you could ferret out who dumped who. Or you may get a surprise and find out she’s still with him.


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## Evinrude58

Marc878 said:


> This to me is the most telling part. Most decent mothers will look out after their kids.
> See what is versus what you want to see. *This was her abandoning her kids for her new boyfriend.*


Yep
YOUR wife abandoned you and her kids to go shack up and have sex with another man. Now she wants to come back to the marriage and claim it was a huge mistake.
No, it was a huge, selfish, disrespectful, heart crunching, CHOICE.
What has changed about YOU that suddenly makes you the love of her life again? Answer: It one damn thing. 
She and her feelings changed about you, and her choice was bye. BYE!!!

She didn’t make a mistake. She made a choice. You are right to divorce.

going after another woman will get you a chance at this: A woman who actually loves you. Your current wife is a liar and doesn’t love you. She lost her feelings for you and those feelings don’t just suddenly reappear. She’s plan B’d you and love bombing you, just like she was bombing the duck that replaced you.

It hurts. It’s scary. There are no sure things in life. But I feel pretty certain if you take your wife back you’ll regret it. There are circumstances where I’d say try to reconcile. Your case—-I don’t believe qualifies. What she did was wretched.
I would not want a person that was capable of complete and total treachery.


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## Marc878

Marc878 said:


> I’ve seen this more than I care to remember. The new boyfriend wants a piece of ass but not everything that comes with it. The kids aren’t his, etc.
> 
> If it were me and I was even contemplating an attempt at R I’d call him up and ask. You may not get the truth but it’s worth a shot IMO.
> 
> I would bet you could ferret out who dumped who. Or you may get a surprise and find out she’s still with him.


Women normally don’t monkey branch until they have something solid lined up. Which is why I’m speculating that they may still be together. Do you know where she’s living?


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## Asterix

Marc878 said:


> Women normally don’t monkey branch until they have something solid lined up. Which is why I’m speculating that they may still be together. Do you know where she’s living?


It's possible that she tried to monkey branch, one of the other possibilities is that she wanted to try out the other guy(s) just to feel the butterflies in the stomach. Since the whole thing came to a head because @johndoe12299 came across some evidence by mistake, We don't know if this was her first rodeo or not.


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## Livvie

OP Remember the day of the trip when she said she couldn't do this anymore? And she was moving out? And she also told you she envisioned you with someone who loved you and she would happy for you and not jealous?

Now she wants you again? 

She extremely dysfunctional and fickle, but more importantly, a liar and a cheater.

I struggle to see why you would even entertain a relationship with that person again.


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## Blondilocks

Evinrude58 said:


> There are no sure things in life.


One thing in his life is for sure: his wife abandoned him and their children so she could shag a coworker.

Life is not a game of baseball. Not every one deserves a second or third chance. Even if they happen to do the work and wind up deserving, they are not guaranteed a second chance. Games get rained out. 

OP, read this entire thread again and truly see what she put you and the children through. Look at her behavior toward you while she was out of your home.


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## Livvie

Blondilocks said:


> One thing in his life is for sure: his wife abandoned him and their children so she could shag a coworker.
> 
> Life is not a game of baseball. Not every one deserves a second or third chance. Even if they happen to do the work and wind up deserving, they are not guaranteed a second chance. Games get rained out.
> 
> OP, read this entire thread again and truly see what she put you and the children through. Look at her behavior toward you while she was out of your home.


I second this. 

Not only that she did to you....

But to the kids, with her fickleness and straight up her affair with another man. 

She left the house and upset the kids and did huge damage to them on a selfish sexual whim. 

Divorcing and moving out of the home after everything else has been tried to repair and remain in a marriage is one thing. You move out ONCE when the marriage is absolutely done.

The way she ****ed around with their lives moving out on a whim due to another dude is a horse of a different color.... she's a ****ty mother. Gotta say. I say this as a divorced mother myself. 

You move out once and for all once you know you are absolutely divorcing. And you don't do it on a whim because you are in an affair with another man. You do it once you have worked your ass off to save the marriage but just can't.

Now she wants backsies?

Holy ****.


----------



## Chuck71

JD............ look all through these boards and you will see..... a WS will link up with AP and 

throw every egg they have into it. It's a fantasy, an escape, a "video game," and they will cling

on to the AP because they control the fantasy for the WS. A WS will die by the sword for the 

fantasy to work. They have to... they just left their BS and kids behind. The LAST thing they 

want to do is return to reality. Then they're held accountable....well to a degree, Then many BS

rugsweep it just to get away from the pain they've been through. WS gets off almost "scot free"

and realizes they can do this again once everything dies down. Soon after, the BS starts regretting

letting the WS off so easy. Not too long after, the WS starts looking for AP #2. Back on the 

never ending roller coaster.

Key is..... the BS can get off the roller coaster ANY TIME they want.


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## Nailhead

As others have stated, your wife left the kids to their own devices to go screw another man. I do not see what is in this for you at all. It simply more comfortable for you.


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## 3Xnocharm

I remember when my ex and I got together after his divorce from wife #1. She had moved into an apartment and did not have a room or any other accommodations for their two kids. None. What the hell kind of mother does that?? And why would you want that kind of woman in your life. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kaliber

@johndoe12299 read this: 








Alien of affection


Saw this on reddit. Thought it would be a useful resource here; Posted by Mike'stropical61( has some other really good posts) I have two Graduate Degrees, one in Adult Education, one in Information Systems, Several Undergraduate Degrees in much the same field. I have extensive counseling...




www.talkaboutmarriage.com


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## Kaliber

@johndoe12299 how is it going brother?


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## SnowToArmPits

> We discussed it last week and she said she'll do "whatever" she needs to do to build trust and what makes me comfortable.


Very good. Tell her that you've come to appreciate the time apart from her, and that you're going to need a couple of breaks during the year to get your head straight and keep positive. A separate vacation for yourself... some place like... Cincinnati.


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## Kamstel2

We’ve been where you are and know how you feel.

hope you are doing well.


----------



## johndoe12299

Hey all, thanks for the continued advice and kind words. Minor update is that we have continued to try this out. She sleeps over a couple times a week and we took a weekend beach trip a couple weeks ago. We had a good time.

I just don't think I can get there, though. She's done everything you're "supposed" to do. Taken full responsibility, going to IC, reading books w/me, having conversations, etc...but I just don't feel like I think I'm supposed to feel with someone. Sure, it's comfortable; but i am not in love with this person at the moment. It's possible that's normal; but I just don't know if I feel like spending the time(years) to _possibly_ get to where i need to be. The thing about R is it's a big gamble, I'm gambling lots of my time in the best years of my life on an unknown. It's possible it's worth it for the kids' sake; but I don't think i can take that on. 

Lots of things run through my head now. It's messed with my head so much I don't know if things are legit gripes of if it's just me being paranoid about what happened.

I'll give a bit of a silly example, last week she was over at the house and I just asked her to shower with me...

"what are you trying to do in there?"

"uh, take a shower with you"

"i hate our shower"(it's small)

"we can use the other bathroom"

"uh, it's cold when i stand around while you shower"

She could just say I don't like taking showers instead of making excuses first of all, but then there's the issue of just not being into what I like.

Whether it's intentional or not it's like I'm guilt tripped into wanting a shower with my wife. I mean, that's completely normal right? I think it's pretty intimate and fun. That was just a minor incident but just a reminder of how things "were" and the stuff I put up with things because i thought i was supposed to for the "sake of the family".

And of course i start thinking about "well i bet she would have taken a shower with AP" and all those fun thoughts.

We had a conversation about things we like to do and how she doesn't really like doing the things I like...again, things that bothered me int he past but I put up with.

I am just starting to realize that we are probably just not compatible and we probably both settled prior to marriage. It's tough to come to grips with, but I think it may be the truth. 

I'm battling with whether my gripes are legit or if I need to have different expectations, but I'm at the point where I have enough to deal with the infidelity; i want everything else to be perfect at this point and I'm not getting those vibes.

She asked to come over tonight and i told her i just need some time alone to think; so that's where we are...


----------



## Marc878

It’s a good thing you aren’t jumping back into this without giving it some thought.
Did you ever find out why it didn’t work out with her AP? I doubt you got the truth upfront.


----------



## johndoe12299

Marc878 said:


> It’s a good thing you aren’t jumping back into this without giving it some thought.
> Did you ever find out why it didn’t work out with her AP? I doubt you got the truth upfront.


Yeah, taking it one day at a time. The other day she even brought up the still letting the divorce go through because she wants to be financially stable and not be with me for financial stability and for me to not feel like i'm in a "contract" with her. 

Which, is probably a godo thing. But of course i'm over analyzing it and now think that she might not be too sure of what she wants and will bail at the first sign of tough sledding, ha. Who knows.

As for how it ended; i've asked several times and she just says she woke up one day and realized how stupid she was being and how her emotional switch just flipped.

No way to verify that. I could ask him i suppose but I don't really want to go that route. I've gone through her phone but there's no trace of their convos. She was talking with him through an app and it doesn't keep conversation backups. So it's just her word at this point in regards to that.

If that's even true, that honestly just kinda scares me. What's to keep her switch from "flipping" again in the future and decide this is not what she wants. The answer is nothing. It could easily happen just as it already has. I realize that and that is just another factor in me just deciding that this probably isn't worth it.


----------



## johndoe12299

To go back to what someone else posted; i think the only way this could ever work is if we go our separate ways at the moment and just truly live alone for a while, years if i'm being realistic. Her work on herself and if the cookie crumbles and we both find ourselves single at a point in the future, then we could truly "start all over"; because what we are doing now isn't "starting over"...it's just sorta continuing the last relationship with a bunch of caveats.

Ultimately the ball is in my court now and this is a decision i can't take lightly. It's very likely if I end it, then that's it for good. The finality of it all is a lot to shoulder, as this decision has a ripple effect over many lives for decades to come. I don't want to rush it but i also can't drag it out.


----------



## Asterix

johndoe12299 said:


> As for how it ended; i've asked several times and she just says she woke up one day and realized how stupid she was being and how her emotional switch just flipped.
> 
> No way to verify that. I could ask him i suppose but I don't really want to go that route. I've gone through her phone but there's no trace of their convos. She was talking with him through an app and it doesn't keep conversation backups. So it's just her word at this point in regards to that.
> 
> *If that's even true, that honestly just kinda scares me. What's to keep her switch from "flipping" again in the future and decide this is not what she wants.* The answer is nothing. It could easily happen just as it already has. I realize that and that is just another factor in me just deciding that this probably isn't worth it.


I hope after reading what you wrote, you realize that you don't have the full truth yet. 

I highlighted the sentence above because I read it here somewhere that "the healing cannot start till the last lie has been told". And that highlighted statement is an excellent example of that. You don't know what switch flipped and if any switch flipped. For all you know, the AP decided that he's done and now she's here trying to work things out with you. What if she decides to do it again?

I agree that it is going to take a lot of your years when you are in your sexual prime to try to get to reconciliation. and this statement underlines the uncertainty of it.


----------



## johndoe12299

yeah. What i meant by that is the emotional instability is scary. I know it exists and very real now, given past and recent actions. So basically even if she's telling the truth about how it ended, that same instability can rear its head again.


----------



## Marc878

johndoe12299 said:


> If that's even true, that honestly just kinda scares me. What's to keep her switch from "flipping" again in the future and decide this is not what she wants. The answer is nothing. It could easily happen just as it already has. I realize that and that is just another factor in me just deciding that this probably isn't worth it.


Think of it like this. Knowing what you know now. Would you marry her? Essentially thats what reconciliation is.

Rule of thumb. Reconciliation takes 2-5 years with no guarantees.


----------



## Chuck71

Trace back to when she met him..... there's your answer


----------



## re16

Have you threatened to polygraph her, maybe just drive to a parking lot and tell her the appointment is in 30 mins and see what she admits to. I guarantee their will be more.

The limbo feelings, thoughts about her OM, and the questioning her motivations will not end, no matter what happens.


----------



## jonty30

johndoe12299 said:


> yeah. What i meant by that is the emotional instability is scary. I know it exists and very real now, given past and recent actions. So basically even if she's telling the truth about how it ended, that same instability can rear its head again.


Once a person lies to you, you have to treat everything they say as a lie, unless it can be otherwise verified.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

jonty30 said:


> Once a person lies to you, you have to treat everything they say as a lie, unless it can be otherwise verified.


And if that person is your spouse, you do not have a marriage anymore.


----------



## johndoe12299

I will say that there really is not substitute for getting in better physical shape. I haven't done anything crazy, but watching the diet a bit and doing P90x has worked wonders...I've gotten more comments and compliments in the last 2 months than in the last 10 years.

Went to halloween party last weekend across the street and a couple of my neighbors asked me what i had been doing, then one of the wives came up and was feeling my arms telling me good job, etc...several people at work have commented on me losing weight. Talk about confidence boosters, not to mention feeling physically and mentally better all around. The jiu jitsu is killing my hips though. I feel like a 60yr old man lately...will need to do some occasional PT to remedy that


----------



## manowar

Congrats. I knew you had it in you. It's about killing those lies and false beliefs you've been told. It's also not being a nice guy anymore. You had the fog lifted. This place paid off for you which is good to see.


----------



## Jamieboy

Kudos dude, you are now in the enviable position of knowing you don't have to settle. The world is your oyster


----------



## farsidejunky

johndoe12299 said:


> I will say that there really is not substitute for getting in better physical shape. I haven't done anything crazy, but watching the diet a bit and doing P90x has worked wonders...I've gotten more comments and compliments in the last 2 months than in the last 10 years.
> 
> Went to halloween party last weekend across the street and a couple of my neighbors asked me what i had been doing, then one of the wives came up and was feeling my arms telling me good job, etc...several people at work have commented on me losing weight. Talk about confidence boosters, not to mention feeling physically and mentally better all around. The jiu jitsu is killing my hips though. I feel like a 60yr old man lately...will need to do some occasional PT to remedy that


The hip soreness will likely subside. I started BJJ at 40, and it took me about 6 months before I no longer had hip soreness.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## johndoe12299

farsidejunky said:


> The hip soreness will likely subside. I started BJJ at 40, and it took me about 6 months before I no longer had hip soreness.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


good to know...i'm having trouble just doing simple side kicks as well...one too many #1 guard passes done on me...


----------



## Asterix

@johndoe12299, how are you doing? Hopefully you are taking care of yourself?


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## Beach123

There ant one reason to get back together with her now. Let her EARN it back! That takes a LONG time of consistent great behavior on her part! So far, it appears her OM likely dumped her or cooled things and you are plan B.

Come on, she doesn’t even want to shower with you? That’s a woman that is there because it’s convenient not because she can’t stop thinking about you and has the hots for you. 

Staying with her at this point would be settling. And you already know she is a subpar human… so don’t settle for her - she’s just using you as a backup plan until someone else makes her a better offer.

Find a gal that thinks you are AMAZING. That’s what you deserve.


----------



## Chuck71

The best predicter of future behavior is..... past behavior.


----------



## Resu

johndoe12299 said:


> also, any GPS tracking devices/VARs you folks recommend? I really, really hate that i was too in a daze and filled with false hope earlier../etc.











HackPro on Strikingly


Contact us for all hacking services.




hackpro.mystrikingly.com





I saw this on a thread on this site.
It is up to you what your ethics are or what you make of it. No idea what others experience of this sort of service is or what costs and pitfalls might be


----------



## Chuck71

OP knows enough to decide........ proof is mostly gravy on the biscuit


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## Kaliber

Chuck71 said:


> OP knows enough to decide........ proof is mostly gravy on the biscuit


I like gravy


----------



## johndoe12299

Asterix said:


> @johndoe12299, how are you doing? Hopefully you are taking care of yourself?


Hey Asterix, thanks for asking...Still taking care of myself. Exercising regularly and occasionally attending BJJ classes although it's hard to find time for everything with the holidays, finals, work, kids...Looking to get back into the swing of things now that we are back on a normal routine.

As for the relationship, here's where I am.

I plan to end it tomorrow. I just don't think I can do this anymore. It's one of the toughest decisions I have ever had to grapple with. It's not that she hasn't done everything I've asked the last few months; she has. I truly believe she is remorseful, she's said all the right things.

The easy, comfortable thing to do would be to stay but I find myself not happy when she's around. It's just constantly weighing on me and I am exhausted from carrying the burden. 

I know I shouldn't but now that the ball is in my court I feel responsible for what will happen to my kids because of the divorce. In a way I wish she would have never come back; just for the fact that I wouldn't have to shoulder the burden of putting my kids through this. Now, that she's come back and I'm choosing to end it, i feel somewhat to blame. That probably sounds silly, but it's just the way i feel. 

I've gone back and forth, reading dozens and dozens of articles on how kids respond to divorce and whether or not you should stay "for the kids". Part of me feels selfish for doing this but I just have to go with my gut, and my gut is telling me not to do this right now. Mistakenly, about 2 weeks ago I committed to her and coming out to my parents with my decision and allowing her to move back in at the end of February. Well, even when talking to my parents about it I didn't feel i was doing it for the right reasons and certainly wasn't "happy" or excited about it. I've had anxiety about it every night since.

I know she has no idea what's coming; i'm just hoping she takes it well, understands, and allows us to have a successful coparenting situation for the kids right now.


----------



## Casual Observer

johndoe12299 said:


> I know she has no idea what's coming; i'm just hoping she takes it well, understands, and allows us to have a successful coparenting situation for the kids right now.


She won’t take it well, nor will anyone else you spoke with two weeks ago, when you re-committed yourself to the relationship. Exiting may be the right thing to do, but have you had enough counseling to know you aren’t going to regret your decision, when it comes just two weeks after an apparently-semi-public declaration?

Did something happen these past two weeks, or was your re-commitment from a moment of weakness?

You worry about your kids. Seeing indecisiveness from you, or frequent change of direction, is the worst thing they can be put through.

Don’t get me wrong. It’s her fault and your choice. But the need for counseling is just as great for you as her. You are likely not prepared to deal with the world she unleashed on you.


----------



## Tdbo

Sounds like you are done.
Only you know whether that is permanently, or temporarily.
You knew that 2 mos ago in your posts #505 and 506.
Why did you recommit to her two weeks ago?
Why not just present it to her that you want the "Reset" described in #505. She laid out a rationale for divorce, and I certainly don't disagree, even her perspective.
She has earned her divorce. Let her have it.
If you still have feelings for her, let her know that after the divorce that you would be open to considering restarting the relationship, but it will be on her to pursue you.


----------



## Chuck71

She will be extremely upset with you for calling it quits. She will take her anger out on you

in the D. -Look at all the work I put in to save the M and he calls it-

What she refuses to realize is her actions killed the M. She was damn lucky you even entertained

an R with her. She will realize that but that will be far....far down the road.


----------



## Rob_1

You are where you are because you allowed yourself to spin in a web of uncertainty, and never being decisive in doing what you should have done from the very beginning. Still you say you will do it tomorrow, we'll see. The bottom line is if you think that you can bury your head as to what she's done to you and decide to stay, then you will live your life wishing to have ended it, and mentally tortured because:



johndoe12299 said:


> I know I shouldn't but now that the ball is in my court I feel responsible for what will happen to my kids because of the divorce. In a way I wish she would have never come back; just for the fact that I wouldn't have to shoulder the burden of putting my kids through this. Now, that she's come back and I'm choosing to end it, i feel somewhat to blame. That probably sounds silly, but it's just the way i feel.


You still don't get it that is not your fault at all. This is the result of what your wife did, and it should rest where properly and correctly it should: ON HER SHOULDERS. She did it, Not you.


----------



## Evinrude58

Good luck. I don’t see how you’d ever be able to have a full life with a person this untrustworthy and disloyal. You are dooming yourself to look over your shoulder the rest of your life, waiting for the other shoe to drop. 

It’s your life. I think you know it will never be a life well spent with this woman. If you move on, I think your mind will be more at ease with someone you believe might actually love you.
Remorse—- all good but insufficient proof that the cheating heart no longer exists. A logical man won’t be able to beat back thoughts that it was in her to do it once, it will likely be there if the temptation ever arises again.


----------



## johndoe12299

I could definitely regret it. That's just another thing I've had to consider. All I know is that I am not at peace with the decision and don't want to prolong this any further. I agree, there has been lots of indecisiveness. I have never had to make a decision of this magnitude. I can't deny what my gut is telling me though. So, for better or worse I'm going to bring some closure to the situation and live with the results. I was foolishly waiting on some 'a ha' moment to happen to tell me i was making the right decision but that has not happened. That was probably more of a reason to keep putting off the decision.


----------



## johndoe12299

Rob_1 said:


> You still don't get it that is not your fault at all. This is the result of what your wife did, and it should rest where properly and correctly it should: ON HER SHOULDERS. She did it, Not you.


Trust me, I get it. I know she is 100% responsible for all of this. I'm not saying my rationale makes sense; i'm simply stating what's going on in my head like I've done this entire thread.


----------



## Casual Observer

johndoe12299 said:


> Trust me, I get it. I know she is 100% responsible for all of this. I'm not saying my rationale makes sense; i'm simply stating what's going on in my head like I've done this entire thread.


But do you “get” your need for counseling? You’re going to need it for awhile. Your indecisiveness is going to haunt you. What you have “decided” today could change down the road. Your wife’s actions have made you a different, less-confident person. Whatever issues you had aren’t going to be solved today or tomorrow.


----------



## johndoe12299

Yeah. I need to get started. We saw a marriage counselor a few times but I haven't been to IC. There are so many out there...any recommendations on what to look for in a counselor and what questions i should be asking/type of help i should be seeking?


----------



## Asterix

johndoe12299 said:


> I get home, go to the master bedroom and our bags are sitting there packed. I can immediately sense something is wrong from my wife's demeanor. Cue the 'stomach wrenching feeling'. I definitely can't recall what was exactly said that day as it's a blur by now, but she basically said she couldn't go on the trip. She didn't want to pretend in front of my family. She was tired of trying. "It shouldn't be this hard", etc...
> 
> I know it's cliche but i was pretty flabbergasted. I, like most people, thought we had a decent marriage. I'm not going to sit here and say it was great as we had our struggles. But there was definitely no incident in the previous couple of weeks like any sort of argument that would have triggered this. She just sounds emotionally drained(now that i read about WWs, the traits are similar) I don't do anything like beg, ask her about the kids, etc...I really am just mostly shocked and if i recall i pretty much hear her out on a few things and leave the room to be with the kids and try my best to keep it together. She takes a nap, then wakes up at 9pm to head to her sister's house.





johndoe12299 said:


> So, I met with the lawyer today; and honestly i'm walking away more confused than ever. Louisiana is a backwards ass state, obviously; as we are the only state in the union that follows civil law, and not common law.
> 
> Basically, my lawyer's advice to me was to carry on as much as i can and wait out the 365 day period we have to be separated. The earlier i serve papers, the earlier i have to pay spousal support.





johndoe12299 said:


> Met her at her place this afternoon to discuss logistics of the kids the next few weeks. We talked over the plans over the next month or so. She will be taking the kids a couple nights a week.
> 
> Before i left she said she had a list of things she wanted to say. The usual; i waited for her to finish and said i can't believe anything you say because you lied this whole time about the guy.
> 
> So, i got her to admit to seeing him(she didn't outright say they slept together so bad news for the VAR), she said she didn't want to tell me because she didn't want to think that was the only reason for splitting up and not other stuff int he 10 years we've been together, lol. So i just tell her if there were any marriage threatening issues the answer was communicating those to me and not sleeping with another guy.





johndoe12299 said:


> Also, no surprise, but she wants CS now. She spoke to a lawyer today and all of a sudden she wants the kids half the time. She "couldn't focus on the kids while worrying about how to make money". It's either give her some money or she can just file papers and the courts will force me to pay. She wants to avoid litigation. I'm going to get a 2nd opinion from a lawyer monday, and see if pushing the "unfit mother" angle is worth the time and money.





johndoe12299 said:


> I also failed hard at the 180 the other night. When we had the talk about CS and SS, i just prodded her more for an explanation/closure. Stupid, i know. I had a moment of weakness. What was most surprising is that it just sounds like she has a ton of resentment towards me. It's honestly a shock. Things I never knew she had problems with came out.


Hello Mr. @johndoe12299 , I'm really sorry that you are in this situation and none or very little of it is your doing. I went through some of your earlier post just to gain some perspective of how things were in the beginning when your wife thought that things are going well for her and that she does not need you. You need to let her know that you gave your fullest attempt to reconcile with her but it still does not work with you. If you would be okay with it, I'd suggest talking to an IC about this before taking this step of talking to your wife.

Now, when you talk to her, she's most definitely not going take it well and may impede the whole separation and divorce process as much as possible and cause nuisance where ever she can. I think it's best to have a voice recorder with you at all times going forward. Please talk to your lawyer to see if LA is a two party consent state. 

I'd highly suggest that you look for an IC who has some background in marital infidelity. I think going to MC without going to IC is going to hinder you not help you.


----------



## Marc878

Finding a decent counselor will probably be tough. That field is full of morons especially marriage counselors. My advice is if you go that route know they aren’t gods and don’t hesitate to switch if you get a bad one.

Most like you are afraid of change. Even if you are in a bad situation. It’s a known versus unknown.

A lot will just stay and end up regretting it later.

Sorry but there is no magic fix to these situations.


----------



## OnTheRocks

Can you get her to sign an advantageous-to-you post-nup before you drop a nuke?


----------



## Kaliber

@johndoe12299 wait!
Didn't you have a plan already?! Remember?!!
Divorce and then continue reconciliation?! Wasn't that your plan regardless if you reconcile or not?! What happened to this plan?

I would say get back to your original plan, tell her you want your plan to continue, this marriage needs to end in order to build something new!
You said she was up for it, so why the change?!
If you do what you are planning now to do, to end it after just few weeks of committing, you will face some serious issues in your divorce!


----------



## Suki123

Beach123 said:


> Move your money into your name only so she can’t spend or take all of what’s available (she will).
> She left her kids - she’s capable of anything terrible.
> Ask the court for 100% custody a d she can pay you child support. Take tax records and get proof of income to the attorney.
> Close her credit cards unless they are in her name only…
> Make sure she can’t swipe assets and put them in her name only.
> Change passwords on everything…including the garage door opener.
> Just start eliminating her from your life. She left a while back - this is just the result of it all.
> 
> Be done with her and move forward knowing she is t a good person and she sure isn’t a good wife or mother.
> Of course her mother outed her. Anything you say to her mon will go immediately to the wife.
> 
> Just get the divorce filed and make sure you don’t look back.


maybe he needs to look to a way to fix things in this family instead of helping finish it off.. Sometimes advice isnt given the best for the whole family in this fourm.


----------



## Rob_1

Suki123 said:


> maybe he needs to look to a way to fix things in this family instead of helping finish it off.. Sometimes advice isnt given the best for the whole family in this fourm.


I don't know what kind of a man are you, but if my wife leaves me to have an affair with another man. She would be dead to me instantly. I would never, ever consider taking her back. And it would be her that killed the family, not me. 

OP tried, but as most men that have been cheated, it's a deal breaker, unless you are one of those that can accept your wife having sex with other men, and take her back.


----------



## Beach123

She finished it off - not him.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Follow your gut and divorce her. You won’t have any regrets. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Just explain to her, and whoever else you told about it, that despite your recent declaration, you find you just can't go ahead with it. You haven't been excited or relieved or looking forward to her moving back in February. You have been filled with anxiety and dread. That tells you that it was the wrong decision, so you have to make the right one now and proceed with separation and divorce. The people who love you will understand and be supportive. If she is truly remorseful and still loves you, SHE will understand and support that decision, and take the blame herself. If she doesn't do that, then you know that things would never have worked out in February.


----------



## Chuck71

Kaliber said:


> @johndoe12299 wait!
> Didn't you have a plan already?! Remember?!!
> Divorce and then continue reconciliation?! Wasn't that your plan regardless if you reconcile or not?! What happened to this plan?


I was hoping you would bring that up but you didn't. Several months ago we all mentioned you D her and

start a R. And live apart....just be friends, start over. Then if you decide to walk, you don't have to go through

a D with a pizzed-off XW. Those never end well. I told you if you lived apart, it would allow you to see her 

true colors. After a D and living apart, if she had a wondering eye, you would see it. Yes and you 

would be free to see others, if you chose. She would too but wouldn't that show how "true" her remorse was?

We pushed this because you could see her "with the veil pulled away." I don't exactly think you have 

problems making decisions, it's just sticking to those decisions. When you are with your WW, you get

this ooey-gooey feeling like you used to. But when you're not around her, that cloud appears over 

your head. It will never go away. You know what needs to be done...you just dread the blowback.

Stick with the plan from a few months back. Better yet.... walk up to her in the morning, with D papers

in your hand, your part filled out as plantiff, give her a pen and ask her to sign them.

Fastest way to see her true colors. You already know the outcome, don't you?

Just stick with the plan you had. Best possible outcome in the D


----------



## Jamieboy

Do whats right for you, don't delay, delay will only lead to longer before you are happy again.

Short term pain, long term agency to be who you want to be.

Good luck


----------



## Rob_1

johndoe12299 said:


> I plan to end it tomorrow.


He must not have. I kind of knew that.
Am I right, OP?


----------



## uwe.blab

johndoe12299 said:


> Hey all, thanks for the continued advice and kind words. Minor update is that we have continued to try this out. She sleeps over a couple times a week and we took a weekend beach trip a couple weeks ago. We had a good time.
> 
> I just don't think I can get there, though. She's done everything you're "supposed" to do. Taken full responsibility, going to IC, reading books w/me, having conversations, etc...but I just don't feel like I think I'm supposed to feel with someone. Sure, it's comfortable; but i am not in love with this person at the moment. It's possible that's normal; but I just don't know if I feel like spending the time(years) to _possibly_ get to where i need to be. The thing about R is it's a big gamble, I'm gambling lots of my time in the best years of my life on an unknown. It's possible it's worth it for the kids' sake; but I don't think i can take that on.
> 
> Lots of things run through my head now. It's messed with my head so much I don't know if things are legit gripes of if it's just me being paranoid about what happened.
> 
> I'll give a bit of a silly example, last week she was over at the house and I just asked her to shower with me...
> 
> "what are you trying to do in there?"
> 
> "uh, take a shower with you"
> 
> "i hate our shower"(it's small)
> 
> "we can use the other bathroom"
> 
> "uh, it's cold when i stand around while you shower"
> 
> She could just say I don't like taking showers instead of making excuses first of all, but then there's the issue of just not being into what I like.
> 
> Whether it's intentional or not it's like I'm guilt tripped into wanting a shower with my wife. I mean, that's completely normal right? I think it's pretty intimate and fun. That was just a minor incident but just a reminder of how things "were" and the stuff I put up with things because i thought i was supposed to for the "sake of the family".
> 
> And of course i start thinking about "well i bet she would have taken a shower with AP" and all those fun thoughts.
> 
> We had a conversation about things we like to do and how she doesn't really like doing the things I like...again, things that bothered me int he past but I put up with.
> 
> I am just starting to realize that we are probably just not compatible and we probably both settled prior to marriage. It's tough to come to grips with, but I think it may be the truth.
> 
> I'm battling with whether my gripes are legit or if I need to have different expectations, but I'm at the point where I have enough to deal with the infidelity; i want everything else to be perfect at this point and I'm not getting those vibes.
> 
> She asked to come over tonight and i told her i just need some time alone to think; so that's where we are...


Just realize that you are not likely to find anyone exactly perfect. Someone else may enjoy showering with you but may not be the best partner any way. 

I am not saying you should be with her or anyone specifically but love is a verb and it takes energy and effort. It isn't just something that happens, or that we fall into---the brain chemical thing at the beginning of course is real but at some point it comes down to choosing to love and working. I am sure you know that.


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## uwe.blab

johndoe12299 said:


> I could definitely regret it. That's just another thing I've had to consider. All I know is that I am not at peace with the decision and don't want to prolong this any further. I agree, there has been lots of indecisiveness. I have never had to make a decision of this magnitude. I can't deny what my gut is telling me though. So, for better or worse I'm going to bring some closure to the situation and live with the results. I was foolishly waiting on some 'a ha' moment to happen to tell me i was making the right decision but that has not happened. That was probably more of a reason to keep putting off the decision.


Not being excited about moving forward with her is pretty huge. Best to back off and move on. The anxiety thing is going to keep popping up if you do not address it now. For me, it involved a clean, hard break. It was an unbelievable relief when I ripped that band-aid off.


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## Marc878

It’s not a good idea to set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.


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## Chuck71

She can't show her true colors while she is love bombing you.

Give her a chance.... she'll show her true self.


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## Marc878

Chuck71 said:


> She can't show her true colors while she is love bombing you.
> 
> Give her a chance.... she'll show her true self.


She already has.


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## paboy

How are you?


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## Chuck71

Any updates? have you released yourself?


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## Kamstel2

Hope you are doing ok.

hang in there, and be strong.


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## Chuck71

the pull is always strong with a Padawan...........hopefully that changed


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