# Is the institution of marriage dying?



## bankshot1993 (Feb 10, 2014)

So maybe its just me getting a little bitter in my old age, maybe just swallowed one to many red pills, but I find myself wondering if marriage is still going to be a thing 20, 30,40 years from now.

the millenials don't seem to anxious to marry, and its no real wonder there.

A good portion of them have grown up in broken homes and watched bitter angry parents do what ever they could to screw each other over so no surprise they don't want any part of that. In addition to that looking at it from a gender biased perspective, its no secret that the family court system weighs heavily against men when it comes to divorce. All to often men are bled dry financially and forced to live a fairly poor standard of life while their XW's are taken out and wined and dined and continue to live a fairly comfortable standard of life. I'm not saying that women don't endure financial hardship with divorce but social tradition still make it easier for women to have a healthy social life while the same cannot be said for men. 

My point being that there is a lot of young men being raised that see this and decide quite early that they don't want to be victimized the same way so they have no interest in marriage.

Young women see their mothers become much happier after leaving what their mothers describe as a miserable marriage (70 percent of all divorces are initiated by women), so it would be fair for them to draw the conclusion after watching their mothers live a happier life as a single divorcee, that they too want no part of marriage as they can clearly see they would be happier as a single.

Now as far as the older generations go, those that are married will of course eventually be dying off and those that are divorced are pretty much in the same camp as the above. How many people have we seen here where after their ugly divorce they swear up and down they will never go down that road again.

Now lets add in the sociological shift that has been happening over the last number of years. Men seem to be increasingly vilified in media with things such as the #metoo movement and it is a wonder that men aren't afraid to talk to women completely.

I had a friend tell me that he (married for twenty years) won't go sit in the park for a quiet afternoon anymore for fear that he is going to have the police questioning him about why he is there. There is an ever increasing social pressure against men as the media bombards them with negativity towards the male gender. Men are growing up being told they are to blame for all evil. I believe that this is going to cause a greater divide between genders at time when there seems to be such a huge movement towards equality.

I have a 24 year old son and in speaking with his friends. none of them have a very positive view on marriage or on committing in any relationship. They have a pretty negative view on their place in marriage and relationships and have all but sworn off them. I find myself wondering where this path we seem to be on is going to lead us.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Anybody with assets would be foolish to marry today!

Maybe it should be dying!


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I would love to remarry. Having said that though, I don't see it happening unless I happen to meet someone face to face - probably more of a work situation, where we're around one another without actually being romantically involved.

Modern dating isn't for me. 

I'm not going to be the convenient ****, or the seasonal fling, or the perpetual girlfriend, or the shack up.

Healthy relationships take time, and I've found that it's near impossible to find anyone with the patience.


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## FalCod (Dec 6, 2017)

It depends on the demographic. Marriage rates among the poor have declined sharply. Among the well off, marriage rates have declined, but not by very much.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I don't think it's dying, and I doubt that it ever will. However, it may be changing, and that's a good thing. Marriage has changed many times in many ways over the centuries, to suit the times. This time is no different, but perhaps more sweeping. The lowered marriage rate is a sign of the need for change - in social conventions, and in the laws affecting marriage. I still think it will persist and be recognizable centuries from now, but we'll also have many more options and variations as well.


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

Men don't have to marry to have sex anymore. It's easy to get today, easier than ever. Add to that everything you mentioned, and the expectation that men should not just respect but cater to women, no way men want to get married. I can tell you first hand that young women today have some crazily misplaced expectations for a mate. Yet, there are news stories about women who are complaining about the lack of quality partners and it's tied to all of the economic and social forces that have been breaking down masculinity for decades.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

FalCod said:


> It depends on the demographic. Marriage rates among the poor have declined sharply. Among the well off, marriage rates have declined, but not by very much.


Ding. A lot of marriage statistics are foretold by financial ones. Careers are less stable than they used to be in other economic strata, which also affects marriage rates.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Well, as much as you think that marriage is on the decline, one thing has proportionately increased. 

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD).


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

bankshot1993 said:


> In addition to that looking at it from a gender biased perspective, its no secret that the family court system weighs heavily against men when it comes to divorce. All to often men are bled dry financially and forced to live a fairly poor standard of life while their XW's are taken out and wined and dined and continue to live a fairly comfortable standard of life. I'm not saying that women don't endure financial hardship with divorce but social tradition still make it easier for women to have a healthy social life while the same cannot be said for men.


I prefer working with facts/statistics/research. You though sound like you're whining based on your own circumstances. Projecting generalizations from your situation to make them seem like stastistical data doesn't make for very intelligent statements because they are far from the truth. Live the life a divorced women and then you will know what it's like. Your opinion is only an opinion, and, as you noted, a gender biased one and is far removed from the facts.

Debunking Financial Divorce Myths
_"The 1985 book The Divorce Revolution: The Unexpected Social and Economic Consequences for Women and Children in America popularized that statistic. By 1996, the data had been revised to reflect that a woman’s standard-of-living decline was actually 27 percent on average. Men’s boost was calculated to be 10 percent on average. In 2011, the U.S. Census Bureau reported that, of the women who divorced in the last 12 months, 27 percent had an annual household income of less than $25,000. Only 17 percent of recently divorced men reported the same assets._

_Truth: After divorce, women’s standard of living drops by an average of 27 percent while men’s grows an average of 10 percent."_

Debunking Financial Divorce Myths
_"Yes, women may fare worse in divorce than men — recently divorced women are more likely to require public assistance than recently divorced men, as well as have a lower income and be more likely to live in poverty, according to the most recent Census. But they’re much more likely than men to initiate divorce.

Research out of the U.K. also shows that even women in same-sex unions are more likely to split than men in same-sex unions, though data is still new. As researchers noted, in the United States roughly two-thirds of divorces are wanted, initiated, or filed by the wife.

Truth: Women initiative divorce more often and end up more financially devastated than men."_

The Divorce Gap
*There’s a common perception that women siphon off the wealth of their exes and go on to live in comfort. It’s wrong.*
_"Despite the common perception that women make out better than men in divorce proceedings, women who worked before, during, or after their marriages see a 20 percent decline in income when their marriages end, according to Stephen Jenkins, a professor at the London School of Economics. His research found that men, meanwhile, tend to see their incomes rise more than 30 percent post-divorce. Meanwhile, the poverty rate for separated women is 27 percent, nearly triple the figure for separated men."
_
You can find the relatively same data anywhere on this page.

Whatever the correlation you're trying to make between the financial aspects and the social aspects don't make any sense either. Traditionally, men were 20% to 30% more likely to remarry than women, which obviously means men have enjoyed the healthier social life. Only recently within the last 2-3 years have women's likelihood of remarriage begun to close the gap. And whether a woman remarries or not, being "wined and dined" is not on her dime, being dated, taken out to dinner, is no reflection on and has nothing to do with her own financial or social status.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

bankshot1993 said:


> Young women see their mothers become much happier after leaving what their mothers describe as a miserable marriage (70 percent of all divorces are initiated by women), so it would be fair for them to draw the conclusion after watching their mothers live a happier life as a single divorcee, that they too want no part of marriage as they can clearly see they would be happier as a single.



Divorce Facts: What Affects Divorce Rates
Why people are divorcing in the united states
Lack of commitment is the most common reason given by divorcing couples according to a recent national survey. Here are the reasons given and their percentages:

Lack of commitment 73%
Argue too much 56%Infidelity 55%
Married too young 46%
Unrealistic expectations 45%
*Lack of equality in the relationship 44%*
Lack of preparation for marriage 41%
*Abuse 25%*

Since the majority of divorces are initiated by women and the reason for divorcing is a combined 69% inequality and abuse, young women seeing their mothers abused and treated as inequitable partners in the marriage are quite capable of deciding for themselves not to marry, rather than someone suggesting something he knows nothing about. Being single is not an innate social factor, wanting marriage is. And, it is wrong to suggest mothers are discouraging their daughters from getting married.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

bankshot1993 said:


> Now lets add in the sociological shift that has been happening over the last number of years. Men seem to be increasingly vilified in media with things such as the #metoo movement and it is a wonder that men aren't afraid to talk to women completely.
> 
> I had a friend tell me that he (married for twenty years) won't go sit in the park for a quiet afternoon anymore for fear that he is going to have the police questioning him about why he is there. There is an ever increasing social pressure against men as the media bombards them with negativity towards the male gender. Men are growing up being told they are to blame for all evil. I believe that this is going to cause a greater divide between genders at time when there seems to be such a huge movement towards equality.


I don't know why you blame the media for the backlash on men's actions. So, you're saying all the abuses of power should have been kept quiet like it's always been. Every woman telling her story about the abuse and harassment she experienced in the work place or anywhere and demanding justice should be muzzled. By all means protect men and allow them to continue on THEIR paths of abuse because they cannot possibly be the ones to blame for what they, themselves, have done. It's all the media's fault.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Bankshot1993: Or perhaps it is people just like you with their offset view of realty that is causing the decline.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I will never understand why divorced husbands feel the money is THEIRS. ESPECIALLY where kids are concerned. Anyway the idea that Mom is getting fat and happy off of HIS money is largely fiction, but people love to feel victimized by the rare occasion that these things are loudly disseminated.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

FalCod said:


> It depends on the demographic. Marriage rates among the poor have declined sharply. Among the well off, marriage rates have declined, but not by very much.


Throughout much of history, though, the well-off were the only ones who married - as we would think of it - at all. A great many people, even up through the early 1900's, were "married" simply because they said they were. There was nothing that bound them together in a permanent way that was recognized by law. The legalities of marriage were the exclusive purview of people who owned property and assets, and were thus concerned with inheritances. If you can trace your family back father than about 1800, through legitimate marriage and birth records, there's a good chance it's because your people were at least middle class if not landed gentry. Even the church wasn't all that concerned about marriage among the peasantry. That came later as Victorian notions of morality spread and became mainstream. And so, what we're seeing now, in the decline of marriage rates among the poor, is more of a return to a historical baseline than anything else.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

chillymorn69 said:


> *Anybody with assets would be foolish to marry today!*
> 
> Maybe it should be dying!


*By the very same token, anyone without assets, IMHO, would also be equally naive to get married!

Trevassing the uncertainty of the Family Court System scares the ever-living hell out of any person remotely considering entering the institution. 

Or it damned well should!*


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

bankshot1993 said:


> A good portion of them have grown up in broken homes and watched bitter angry parents do what ever they could to screw each other over so no surprise they don't want any part of that. In addition to that looking at it from a gender biased perspective,


There are many raised in good homes with loving parents. I know of plenty. These individual have recently married and or working towards marriage.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

bankshot1993 said:


> I had a friend tell me that he (married for twenty years) won't go sit in the park for a quiet afternoon anymore for fear that he is going to have the police questioning him about why he is there.


Someone's been petting the drama llama.

What an utterly ridiculous assumption that if he sits on a bench in the park, he'll immediately become cop bait. Sure as the sun rises every morning, he'd be considered a 'person of interest' by the men in blue and they'd be on him like a hobo on a hotdog, wanting to know exactly what his intentions are, daring to sit there on that bench and being a male and all. Why, the NERVE of that guy!

Do you guys actually listen to yourselves when you talk?

Let me guess - it actually happened once to the friend of a friend of his mother's uncle's cousin, so it *must *happen to literally every man in the park sitting there alone. Alrighty, then.

And I don't know WHERE you got that nonsense about divorced men living in poverty while their ex-wives are being featured on "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous with Robin Leach." What a boatload of bull**** THAT is. Statistics have always pointed to the fact that in a divorce, the general rule is that a man's standard of living goes slightly up while a woman's goes down. As is always the case, there are exceptions to every rule.

As another poster correctly pointed out, just because you may have experienced this and know a few guys who have as well, doesn't make it universal fact or truth. Its just YOUR truth.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Someone's been petting the drama llama.


:rofl:


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## DelicateFlower (Jan 10, 2018)

Being the mother of three boys (26, 24 and 19) I can say your assessment is probably accurate with one caveat; 
I would correct it and say "The institution of HAPPY, HEALTHY marriage is dying"

My 19 year old has told me on numerous occasions, he has ZERO interest in getting married or being in a relationship with anyone long term. After watching me and his father for 19 years he's said "there's no way I ever want to go through that. Even if you got along better, no way do I want to be in a relationship where I have to get someone else's permission or agreement to do things for my life. No thanks. Not worth it!"

He doesn't even want to have kids. 

My other two are a bit different. They were/are practically desperate to get married to the point they have no discerning skills to do find an ideal mate. 
My oldest bounced from girlfriend to girlfriend and ultimately found his wife (who was only 19 at the time - he was 21) on, of all things, one of those "sex buddy sites" - as a mother, my heart broke when I found out. 

My middle son, god bless his heart, I have little hope he'll ever find a mate. He convinces himself he's found the one he wants to marry after only talking to a girl for a dozen times; so much so, he comes on so strong they are running for the door by the second date and never looking back. He hasn't been able to get or keep a girl for longer than a week or two once they start dating. 

I've had very candid talks with all of my boys about marriage, sex, relationships etc. Given each of them guidance unique to their situations and search parameters as much as possible. 

Outside of my own children, my niece has one goal at her 18 years: get married and be pregnant by the time she's 25. I love her but she's the quintessential poster-child for "DIVA". the inside joke with our family, even her mother is "That girl is going to make someone a great X-wife". Sadly, my niece is incredibly smart and very talented and all she cares about it clothes, make-up and finding a boy. 

I've seen VERY few millennials that possess the maturity or skills to be considered "marriage material" or to have a healthy, happy marriage lasting decades. 

Sadly, the only one I've run into recently is my own 19 year old son; the one who refuses to get married. 

I once had a complete stranger, after talking to me and my son for an hour, turn to me and say, "now THAT's the kind of boy I'd want my daughter to marry."


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I have written about this extensively. I do believe the institution of marriage as we know it is dying. That is not to say that it won't carry forward as some kind of vestigial throwback to our past. But statistics bear out the fact that it is becoming much less popular than in the past. 
The main reason, is because for the first time in history, it is no longer needed for the survival of our species. Society no longer requires the traditional family unit to raise children. Women have more freedoms and opportunities than ever before. For that matter so do many men.
The rates of divorce increased dramatically as the societal and cultural trends were reflected in divorce laws (no fault divorce). Many of these divorces were filed by woman. They began to fall among most groups as the rates of marriage began to decline as well. We may see an increase as custody and support laws catch up to no fault divorces. I would predict that more divorces will be filed by men when this happens.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

bankshot1993 said:


> the millenials don't seem to anxious to marry, and its no real wonder there.
> 
> A good portion of them have grown up in broken homes and watched bitter angry parents do what ever they could to screw each other over so no surprise they don't want any part of that.


The breakdown in family values and dismissal of the statutes that used to mold and govern American's moral compass led to the frequency of children born out of wedlock and the increasing rise of children born of varied partners. So, a good many millennials grew up in single-parent homes where there was no marriage at all. They never had the example, and, therefore, never developed any traditional sense of family or necessity to marry. As a result, 57 percent of millennials have children out of wedlock. Most are capricious, but some feel they can marry any time but can't have kids later in life.


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## Todd Haberdasher (Apr 23, 2017)

They are disillusioned because movies make marriage out to be something it was never about - love - instead of what it was intended to be - a partnership based on raising children. Don't expect love in your marriage, just hard work and sacrifice, and you won't be disappointed.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Someone's been petting the drama llama.
> 
> What an utterly ridiculous assumption that if he sits on a bench in the park, he'll immediately become cop bait. Sure as the sun rises every morning, he'd be considered a 'person of interest' by the men in blue and they'd be on him like a hobo on a hotdog, wanting to know exactly what his intentions are, daring to sit there on that bench and being a male and all. Why, the NERVE of that guy!
> 
> ...


That deserved repeating! 
Soooo funny. And probably isn't HIS truth either. Bet he has no idea of his exwife's social and economic status being result of their divorce.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

bankshot1993 said:


> I had a friend tell me that he (married for twenty years) won't go sit in the park for a quiet afternoon anymore for fear that he is going to have the police questioning him about why he is there.


Maybe he shouldn't wear a trenchcoat in the summer and take the closest seat to the playground.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

StarFires said:


> That deserved repeating!
> Soooo funny. And probably isn't HIS truth either. Bet he has no idea of his exwife's social and economic status being result of their divorce.


Do many man really believe women are better off financially after a divorce than they were before? 

Or do they just think the woman is _better off than they think she deserves to be?_

It's easy for the bitter to expect their ex should have to live in abject poverty and that anything above that is unwarranted luxury. And in the case of wife infidelity, I would tend to agree. But that works both ways; in the case of husband infidelity, justice would look something like him being her indentured servant, providing a very nice standard of living, at least until such time she remarries. Of course, in real life, that doesn't happen either.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

StarFires said:


> The breakdown in family values and dismissal of the statutes that used to mold and govern American's moral compass led to the frequency of children born out of wedlock and the increasing rise of children born of varied partners. So, a good many millennials grew up in single-parent homes where there was no marriage at all. They never had the example, and, therefore, never developed any traditional sense of family or necessity to marry. As a result, 57 percent of millennials have children out of wedlock. Most are capricious, but some feel they can marry any time but can't have kids later in life.


I would argue that what you consider to be a breakdown of family values and dismissal of statutes would actually, historically, simply be considered to be the evolution of the same. The things YOU or I did when younger would probably have been considered just as scandalous to someone from an earlier time as you seem to imagine the things millienials do today.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Do many man really believe women are better off financially after a divorce than they were before?
> 
> Or do they just think the woman is _better off than they think she deserves to be?_
> 
> It's easy for the bitter to expect their ex should have to live in abject poverty and that anything above that is unwarranted luxury. And in the case of wife infidelity, I would tend to agree. But that works both ways; in the case of husband infidelity, justice would look something like him being her indentured servant, providing a very nice standard of living, at least until such time she remarries. Of course, in real life, that doesn't happen either.


I think that many men just imagine the X is better off than she deserves to be. Studies have shown that in many cases the woman is worse off financially and that after the initial setback of divorce more men are better off financially. But women also tend to heal faster, while men are more damaged by divorce.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Ynot said:


> I think that many men just imagine the X is better off than she deserves to be. Studies have shown that in many cases the woman is worse off financially and that after the initial setback of divorce more men are better off financially. But women also tend to heal faster, while men are more damaged by divorce.


Sure, Men tend to better at masking their misery by becoming a workaholic. So men will pour themselves into their work, thus gaining associated financial reward. More money...Less happiness. Funny how that works out sometimes. 

The studies linked earlier in this thread tend to be UK based. I don't know if that carries over to the US. In all the divorces I've seen, *both *end up being worse off (even if one ends up making more money)--and really, how could it be any different when a roughly similar financial base is supporting two households vice one? The additional overhead in coparenting can also be a time sink that has negative career implications for both partners (assuming both participate equally in the coparenting--I suspect those cases where the ex husband is financially ascending, he's not paying a lot of attention to junior). 

The only real exception I've personally seen actually supports the bitter husband side. In the case of my wife's parents, MIL took FIL to the cleaners (long before I ever entered the picture, my wife to be was in 5th grade at the time). She got everything (despite her having been the one who cheated), ascended in her career (ignoring her two children in the process and further damaging them), invested shrewdly, and will die a millionaire, while FIL pretty much collapsed into a daily struggle just to get by. But I know enough not to try to say this is the rule rather than the exception.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Sure, Men tend to better at masking their misery by becoming a workaholic. So men will pour themselves into their work, thus gaining associated financial reward. More money...Less happiness. Funny how that works out sometimes.
> 
> The studies linked earlier in this thread tend to be UK based. I don't know if that carries over to the US. In all the divorces I've seen, *both *end up being worse off (even if one ends up making more money)--and really, how could it be any different when a roughly similar financial base is supporting two households vice one? The additional overhead in coparenting can also be a time sink that has negative career implications for both partners (assuming both participate equally in the coparenting--I suspect those cases where the ex husband is financially ascending, he's not paying a lot of attention to junior).
> 
> The only real exception I've personally seen actually supports the bitter husband side. In the case of my wife's parents, MIL took FIL to the cleaners (long before I ever entered the picture, my wife to be was in 5th grade at the time). She got everything (despite her having been the one who cheated), ascended in her career (ignoring her two children in the process and further damaging them), invested shrewdly, and will die a millionaire, while FIL pretty much collapsed into a daily struggle just to get by. But I know enough not to try to say this is the rule rather than the exception.


Another thing about those studies, is that I am not sure how they control for variables. It is easy to say H made X and now H makes X+ at this point. But how much of that is due to natural increases in income over time vs an actual improvement over the natural. The same holds true for women. I think many divorces involve children. If the W gave up her career when she has children, post divorce, she may need to change careers and/or be starting off with less valuable assets (knowledge) than otherwise.
I know, my own recovery post divorce has been great financially, but emotionally it is still very much a work in progress. Mainly due to the fact that I held such antiquated ideas of what a marriage was supposed to be. Which run counter to modern realities. I am playing catch up at an age, when I should be more established (at least in my own mind)


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Ynot said:


> Another thing about those studies, is that I am not sure how they control for variables. It is easy to say H made X and now H makes X+ at this point. But how much of that is due to natural increases in income over time vs an actual improvement over the natural. The same holds true for women. I think many divorces involve children. If the W gave up her career when she has children, post divorce, she may need to change careers and/or be starting off with less valuable assets (knowledge) than otherwise.
> I know, my own recovery post divorce has been great financially, but emotionally it is still very much a work in progress. Mainly due to the fact that I held such antiquated ideas of what a marriage was supposed to be. Which run counter to modern realities. I am playing catch up at an age, when I should be more established (at least in my own mind)


One of the studies linked was actually pretty good about addressing one of those variables, specifically the fact that traditionally it has been the W who has given up, or at least made significant career sacrifices. So naturally, she's less postured for post-divorce recovery. 

Beyond that, the spouse who ends up having primary custody subsequently has greater demands and requires much more time flexibility to manage those demands, so they end up taking less lucrative jobs as a tradeoff for the required time flexibility. That spouse is generally the wife.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

DelicateFlower said:


> My oldest bounced from girlfriend to girlfriend and ultimately found his wife (who was only 19 at the time - he was 21) on, of all things, one of those "sex buddy sites" - as a mother, my heart broke when I found out.


How did you find *that* out? :|


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Do many man really believe women are better off financially after a divorce than they were before?
> 
> Or do they just think the woman is _better off than they think she deserves to be?_
> 
> It's easy for the bitter to expect their ex should have to live in abject poverty and that anything above that is unwarranted luxury. And in the case of wife infidelity, I would tend to agree. But that works both ways; in the case of husband infidelity, justice would look something like him being her indentured servant, providing a very nice standard of living, at least until such time she remarries. Of course, in real life, that doesn't happen either.


So that wasn't a question or thought to pose in response to what I stated because I didn't say, express, nor introduce any idea of what men think. The original poster did.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

StarFires said:


> So that wasn't a question or thought to pose in response to what I stated because I didn't say, express, nor introduce any idea of what men think. The original poster did.


Understood. I was carrying the thought forward and didn't want to omit your link in the discussion. I also didn't intend to be argumentative with you on that point. I've seen enough of your posts to know there will be plenty of opportunity for us to clash without turning this one into a debate.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Ynot said:


> I would argue that what you consider to be a breakdown of family values and dismissal of statutes would actually, historically, simply be considered to be the evolution of the same. The things YOU or I did when younger would probably have been considered just as scandalous to someone from an earlier time as you seem to imagine the things millienials do today.


I pointed out that what has occurred - the loss of fundamental family values - contributes to the reasons millennials don't marry as rebuttal to the OP's myopic view. There was no reason, serves no purpose, and doesn't contribute to the topic of discussion to point out the evolution of wayward principles.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Understood. I was carrying the thought forward and didn't want to omit your link in the discussion. I also didn't intend to be argumentative with you on that point. I've seen enough of your posts to know there will be plenty of opportunity for us to clash without turning this one into a debate.


Okay, I understand. And look forward to our engagement.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

StarFires said:


> I pointed out that what has occurred - the loss of fundamental family values - contributes to the reasons millennials don't marry as rebuttal to the OP's myopic view. There was no reason, serves no purpose, and doesn't contribute to the topic of discussion to point out the evolution of wayward principles.


I disagree, as your post came across as very judgmental or condescending towards modern realities. Pointing out the evolution of values and statutes was very appropriate given the way you phrased your post.
I am not saying the OP was not being short sighted and projecting their own experiences, but given the number and tone of your replies, felt such a response on my part was extremely appropriate.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Ynot said:


> I disagree, as your post came across as very judgmental or condescending towards modern realities. Pointing out the evolution of values and statutes was very appropriate given the way you phrased your post.
> I am not saying the OP was not being short sighted and projecting their own experiences, but given the number and tone of your replies, felt such a response on my part was extremely appropriate.


Again, there was no reason, serves no purpose, and doesn't contribute to the topic of discussion to point out the evolution of wayward principles. And your response above proves that since it was, as you clarified, for entirely different reasons with your own purpose and didn't contribute to the topic of discussion. Thanks so much.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

StarFires said:


> Okay, I understand. And look forward to our engagement.


I'm pretty sure the whole topic of this thread is, why there will be NO engagement . <snicker>


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm pretty sure the whole topic of this thread is, why there will be NO engagement . <snicker>


LOL Well, maybe they will get engaged but never set the date.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

StarFires said:


> Again, there was no reason, serves no purpose, and doesn't contribute to the topic of discussion to point out the evolution of wayward principles. And your response above proves that since it was, as you clarified, for entirely different reasons with your own purpose and didn't contribute to the topic of discussion. Thanks so much.


WTH are you talking about? I stated the reason and the purpose of my reply to you and how they contribute to this discussion, which is about whether or not the institution of marriage is dying. I stated my opinion and I read yours. I disagree with yours, as they seem to come from the POV of moral absolutism. Your statement in this reply about "wayward principles" is more evidence. I pointed out that morality and the statutes driven by that morality have changed. Which absolutely is relevant to the topic at hand.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Ynot said:


> WTH are you talking about? I stated the reason and the purpose of my reply to you and how they contribute to this discussion, which is about whether or not the institution of marriage is dying. I stated my opinion and I read yours. I disagree with yours, as they seem to come from the POV of moral absolutism. Your statement in this reply about "wayward principles" is more evidence. I pointed out that morality and the statutes driven by that morality have changed. Which absolutely is relevant to the topic at hand.


Okay, whatever you say. I'll not argue with nonsense.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

StarFires said:


> Okay, whatever you say. I'll not argue with nonsense.


LOL, I didn't think you had anything but your own myopic views to base your opinions on anyway!


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

It's hard to say what technology and this interconnected society will do to marriage, or relationships in general.


[*]20 years ago you got your information from the news paper.... now you can find out about some random dudes sexual assault popping up on your phone on the way to work

[*]10 years ago people started using text messages for primary means of communications (WTF has that done to dating?)

[*]Now if you want sex, you just have to install an app and swipe a certain direction and you might be rolling in bed with someone by night time...​

In my parents era they got their information and 'help' from their parents, who learnt it from their parents... now we have the internet and access to reports, science and general 'best knowledge'

Stuff my dad thought was "the right way" was actually wrong, and now i can prove it with study X, Y and Z.

Need to learn how to replace your hardwood floors? I can find out in 5 minutes on Youtube.


Just like our parents could never predict we would all have small computer in our hands, i dont think we could predict what will happen with anything


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Ynot said:


> LOL, I didn't think you had anything but your own myopic views to base your opinions on anyway!


I was hoping you had more than insults to contribute but not at all suprised that you don't.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Steve2.0 said:


> It's hard to say what technology and this interconnected society will do to marriage, or relationships in general.
> 
> 
> [*]20 years ago you got your information from the news paper.... now you can find out about some random dudes sexual assault popping up on your phone on the way to work
> ...


I predict a chip implanted at birth....oh wait its already out there.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Marriage isn't dying and never will.

It has taken many forms over millenia and will continue to.

Getting government out of it would help immensely.

Western culture is also a fairly small sample of the entire world.

It won't go away but it is hard to say what shape it will take in every culture.

My oldest is married but I honestly hope it doesn't last unless he grows some balls or she drinks a potion that turns her into something roughly resembling human.

My youngest has a very nice girlfriend and is marriage minded so looking good on that front.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Getting government out of it would help immensely.


What does this mean? Anyone who doesn't want a marriage recognized by the govt. doesn't have to have one.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

SpinyNorman said:


> What does this mean? Anyone who doesn't want a marriage recognized by the govt. doesn't have to have one.


That is what I would like to see promoted. Couples drawing up their own power of attorney and agreements.

I think the state can still get their fingers in your marriage in some instances though.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

StarFires said:


> I was hoping you had more than insults to contribute but not at all suprised that you don't.


What insults? You stated an opinion. I disagreed with it. Rather than actually making an effort to defend your opinion you just discarded mine as irrelevant. So you actually did have nothing other than your own myopic POV to espouse with nothing but disregard for whatever any one else said.
So just in case you don't understand. This is a forum. A forum is where you exchange ideas. You offered your idea, I disagreed. Rather than support your idea, instead you, and you alone, decided it didn't add to the discussion. Even after it was explained exactly why it did.
Since you can't or won't defend your POV I would suggest that you not offer one, rather than just deciding that no one else's matter.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Steve2.0 said:


> It's hard to say what technology and this interconnected society will do to marriage, or relationships in general.
> 
> 
> [*]20 years ago you got your information from the news paper.... now you can find out about some random dudes sexual assault popping up on your phone on the way to work
> ...


Yep all of that is contributing to those "wayward principles". The fact is that the institution of marriage as we know, has changed, will continue to change and we may not even recognize it when it does.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Ynot said:


> What insults? You stated an opinion. I disagreed with it. Rather than actually making an effort to defend your opinion you just discarded mine as irrelevant. So you actually did have nothing other than your own myopic POV to espouse with nothing but disregard for whatever any one else said.
> So just in case you don't understand. This is a forum. A forum is where you exchange ideas. You offered your idea, I disagreed. Rather than support your idea, instead you, and you alone, decided it didn't add to the discussion. Even after it was explained exactly why it did.
> Since you can't or won't defend your POV I would suggest that you not offer one, rather than just deciding that no one else's matter.


Address me to keep baiting me again, and I will report you. I don't want to keep coming to this thread to read only to find more nonsense and insults directed at me from you.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Anyways, I still say the institution of marriage as we know it is evolving and will continue to until that concept is as foreign to us as ours is/was to earlier generations. The institution of marriage as we know is dying. Much of that has to do with advances in technology. In every aspect of our lives. At unprecedented speeds. 
It has been mentioned about changes in just the past 20 years. It is only going to keep changing. At ever increasing speeds.
The courts have been slow to modify existing custodial and support laws to align with no fault divorce. 
Eventually, as they do, I think we will see an increase in filings by men. As, just as women were freed from the financial bounds by advances in technology, men will become empowered to dissolve a marriage without the fear of financial ruin many imagine to be imminent. 
You can see that from some of the posters here on TAM. Males who openly state that the only reason they remain married is fear of financial ruin. 
So what happens when this next wave of divorces hits?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SpinyNorman said:


> What does this mean? Anyone who doesn't want a marriage recognized by the govt. doesn't have to have one.


I also have considered whether or not civil marriage should be eliminated, though I don't see that happening. I read about the history of civil marriage. (Speaking ONLY for the US from a source I cannot even remember, let alone assure is correct. Reader beware.) The origin of civil benefits, if this article was correct, was based on the thought that children do better in committed, long term parental relationships. Civil marriage was an attempt at social engineering aimed at incentives toward remaining together for the benefit of said children. This would be a misguided idea given that the commitment, caring, love, thought and values (having them at all more than what they specifically are) that go into remaining together are what I would think benefit children, not the physical presence of two people.

Civil marriage is much more than that in our societal fabric. Validation, acceptance and the like have been added to the equation. People's desire to have their primary relationship validated as special has changed the landscape where people for whom this was formerly unavailable seek it and those who have had it seek to protect their privileged status. The resultant political discourse is a complete waste of time when there are higher priorities in our world. Are we denying some a basic right? Or are we keeping/raising the value of the hetero-normative family unit, rightly or wrongly. It depends entirely on precisely WHAT your values are not that you are good people with a strong moral center and a desire to live a life of character and integrity.

Worse, it allows the desire for the law to enforce not only property rights and the best treatment for kids but also the punishment and reward of romantic, sexual "rights" and "responsibilities". The effort to determine who is more "right" and who is to "blame" for the perceived failure of these things is costly and futile. Unpacking a struggling marriage requires time, a suit of armor, and skill that does not belong in the legal arena. 

Just my two cents.


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2018)

This thread is a perfect demonstration why marriage is a declining institution in the US.

lol. I managed to put that in a way that evades the PC police. But it could not be clearer, to those with the insight.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Successful marriage requires a level of selflessness and altruism that is just not valued in western culture. Actually quite the opposite, so no wonder it's dying.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think marriage is changing. In the past it had a much stronger practical component. Women had a very difficult time having successful lives by themselves, so they needed a husband. I'm sure some people married for love, but for many it was just a requirement to have a normal life. 

Now that we have much more equality, women don't *need* to be married. This eliminates one of the motivations for marriage so it would be natural for the rate to decline. People who *want* to be married, can, and still do so. 

I see that as an overall good thing.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

There are good things and bad things about marriage...like most things. That's a h generic answer but it really depends on what a couple believe. It's tragic the rate of successful marriages is declining in my opinion.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> I also have considered whether or not civil marriage should be eliminated, though I don't see that happening. I read about the history of civil marriage. (Speaking ONLY for the US from a source I cannot even remember, let alone assure is correct. Reader beware.) The origin of civil benefits, if this article was correct, was based on the thought that children do better in committed, long term parental relationships. Civil marriage was an attempt at social engineering aimed at incentives toward remaining together for the benefit of said children. This would be a misguided idea given that the commitment, caring, love, thought and values (having them at all more than what they specifically are) that go into remaining together are what I would think benefit children, not the physical presence of two people.
> 
> Civil marriage is much more than that in our societal fabric. Validation, acceptance and the like have been added to the equation. People's desire to have their primary relationship validated as special has changed the landscape where people for whom this was formerly unavailable seek it and those who have had it seek to protect their privileged status. The resultant political discourse is a complete waste of time when there are higher priorities in our world. Are we denying some a basic right? Or are we keeping/raising the value of the hetero-normative family unit, rightly or wrongly. It depends entirely on precisely WHAT your values are not that you are good people with a strong moral center and a desire to live a life of character and integrity.
> 
> ...


I don't know what sexual rights or responsibilites marriage is involved in. Determining blame in a divorce is largely a thing of the past. As for custody issues, you will have them whether there is such a thing as marriage or not. It is not a condemnation of marriage if people read strange things into it, it is their problem.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

gowithuhtred said:


> There are good things and bad things about marriage...like most things. That's a h generic answer but it really depends on what a couple believe. It's tragic the rate of successful marriages is declining in my opinion.


In the past 40 years, there are fewer marriages and fewer divorces. Don't know if that means marriage is declining or not.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Successful marriage requires a level of selflessness and altruism that is just not valued in western culture. Actually quite the opposite, so no wonder it's dying.


I agree with you. As we move further and further into a me first entitlement society an institution like marriage, which is success based on the willingness to compromise and sacrifice, is going to suffer. I wouldn’t be surprised to see it decline to one day only be observed by the deeply religious. That would oddly make it more appealing for me to be part of and keep the government out of it


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Wolf1974 said:


> I agree with you. As we move further and further into a me first entitlement society an institution like marriage, which is success based on the willingness to compromise and sacrifice, is going to suffer. I wouldn’t be surprised to see it decline to one day only be observed by the deeply religious. That would oddly make it more appealing for me to be part of and keep the government out of it


I think it also needs to be said that we live much longer and some of the financial and practical benefits are not present in modern day society. That is a factor as well. Marriage in the bible for instance is much closer to the eastern idea. It wasn't romantic love. In many cases there is also no longer a need for one person to handle the home while the other person works for instance. This has created much pressure and given marriage a more singular purpose (companionship) in a lot of ways that it didn't have in the past.


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