# Am I wrong/crazy or what



## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

So, around this time of year I get a bit, uh, crazy. I use that word to describe myself because it's about me so I can and it sums up everything pretty succinctly. I guess one could say that I deal with a lot of anxiety and I have trouble putting things away in my emotional closet when I'm dong thinking about them. I've been on medication before and I'm not averse to doing it again. But, there is a situation that has been on my mind lately. 

My wife and I have a spa (or hot tub). We use it a lot. It's in a secluded part of our backyard and at night we use it sans clothes. No biggie there since no one can see us and we are discreet. When neighbors, friends and family come over we all wear swimsuits. Lately a couple who lives near us has been suggesting that with the weather being colder than it would be nice to not have to walk home in wet swimsuits. They've mentioned it a lot. They insist that nudity is not necessarily a sexual thing, and to a point I agree with them. Okay so far, except that we've known this couple for a long time. The husband has said things (of a sexual nature) that I find offensive and troubling, the wife has exposed herself to me and was, to use her own words, "handsy" with my wife one New Year's Eve among other similar questionable incidents. Looking back, it kind of reminds me of the Ellen/Katy Perry thing where if a man had acted similarly there would be heck to pay, but everyone seemed to think it was all good because it was one intoxicated woman on New Year's Eve having fun around another (who wasn't drunk) 

I don't think my wife is actually considering allowing the naked spa visits and I've said I'm not for it, but I just sort of need help with the confidence to say, "No good can come of this couple getting in our spa without clothes." I've said that based on past events I see no good coming of this and besides, it's not my job to accommodate someone's discomfort if they choose to get in my spa nude. I don't think anyone's health will be in serious peril for wearing a wet bathing suit while walking down the street to go home and I don't think not wearing the swimsuit will improve anyone's health chances much.

The problem is that we've had this sort of situation with this couple before where they've wanted us to move our boundaries and I've been the one saying no while my wife seems to see no trouble with their request. I believe that since people that the neighbors wife used to hang out with are gone that she is going to latch onto my wife more. I want my wife to have friends and she generally makes good decisions; however, I really need to understand how to present my views about these things clearly, dispassionately and in a way that doesn't start an argument. Again, I just do not see good coming out of their behavior sometimes and I often wonder about their motives. They creep me out sometimes. Some of my friends ask me if we've considered moving away from the area. While I have, I don't think we should have to move because anyone else's lack of boundaries. My wife makes pretty good decisions and she is an adult obviously, but I need to be able to learn how to represent my side properly when _our _ interests are at state.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Well, the problem will rise up and become obvious.

Not when the naked neighbors wife enjoys the hot tub.
It will happen when the nude neighboring man enters the hot tub.

And gazes lovingly at your wife.
And when she returns the smile, her eyes coyly ogling him up and down.
Her hidden hands drifting to underwater, uncharted regions.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Have you tried simply telling your wife, point-blank, that you are not okay with the neighbors enjoying your hot tub in the nude? Also say that if such a thing happens, it will be the last time they are invited over, for any reason. Also, mention to your wife that this couple makes you uncomfortable and that you don't like hanging out with them because they do not seem to be friends of your marriage.

It's really not all that hard to state boundaries, or to live by them. Just tell the couple "no" if they ask again, and repeat as needed. Don't get dragged into the position of justifying your decisions to them. If they can't abide by your rules in your house (or hot tub) then ask them to leave. And if your wife isn't willing to accommodate your more-than-reasonable boundaries, then you have bigger problems than your swinger neighbors. 

Have you considered seeing a therapist to help you work on your self-confidence and boundary-setting?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

We have a neighbor with a hot tub. We can see it over the fence. Often when they are in it they will ask to me and my W to come over. We are not hot tub fans. Further, we certainly would not get in their hot tub. That is just plain weird to me and my W. 

Just say no. You don't share your W naked body(visually or otherwise with other men). No arguing about it. Get a bigger fence with lock.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

It sounds a lot like this couple are swingers or wannabe swingers and are trying to move things in that general direction with you and your wife. If that's not the case, they're just creepy and lacking boundaries. Since you aren't comfortable with their desire to enjoy the hot tub nude, simply tell them that nudity with other people is inappropriate as you are monogamously married and that, if they don't want to walk home in wet clothes, they should bring dry clothing to change into or simply not get in the hot tub.

Or, better yet, stop hosting Mr and Mrs Creepy altogether.

You're an adult male with a wife and family. Surely you can plainly speak as to your boundaries and comfort levels.


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## DaveinOC (Oct 15, 2017)

RaceTrack1975 said:


> Lately a couple who lives near us has been suggesting that with the weather being colder than it would be nice to not have to walk home in wet swimsuits.


lol, what's with this sense of entitlement? they come and use something in YOUR property and complain of their inconvenience, therefore hinting at you to let them do as they please? they might as well go "hot tubbing" in their bathroom... i heard there's no wind blowing between the bathroom and their closet. 

In all seriousness though, I think you can be honest with your wife about how you feel. It's not ridiculous that you dont want naked people in your tub.....


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

So she got hansy with your wife?

What did your wife say about that?

And yuor wife seems awfully quite about all these sugestions...hmm

Time to have a disscussion with your wife about all of this.

I would advoid this couple like the plague!


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

And other questionable things?

Hmm.

You gloss over some important stuff. Are you sure that she isn't already involved with them?

I smell something fishy. 

Lol pun intended!


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## Slartibartfast (Nov 7, 2017)

I..


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

You need to be stronger. You sound weak, and to be truthful, pretty pathetic.

Yes, they are trying to make your relationship sexual. Yes, they want to get naked with you two so they can get frisky with you two. 

Either learn to say no with strength and conviction, to both your wife and the other couple, or go along for the ride. I suspect with as weak as you are being, it would end your marriage if you do go along as you are, and just let things happen.


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## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

WilliamM said:


> You need to be stronger. You sound weak, and to be truthful, pretty pathetic.
> 
> Yes, they are trying to make your relationship sexual. Yes, they want to get naked with you two so they can get frisky with you two.
> 
> Either learn to say no with strength and conviction, to both your wife and the other couple, or go along for the ride. I suspect with as weak as you are being, it would end your marriage if you do go along as you are, and just let things happen.


Ouch! Painful but I can't disagree. I really do not believe my wife is doing anything inappropriate behind my back. However, I do agree that she is too soft on them when it comes to boundaries. Yes, I need to say no with strength and conviction. My wife doesn't seem to like for me to put my foot down when it comes to them. Well, that has to stop--or rather my weakness on the matter has to stop. To the person who said they have a sense of entitlement, you are quite correct. Time to build some better fences (metaphorically ... I don't think spending money on a privacy fence would do much good). 

She actually is wishy-washy about the boundaries. One minute she is wanting to plant large foliage during the spring/summer between our house and theirs for more privacy from them, but then when they say something like this she comes across weak. I have often thought they are wannabe swingers. Well, I'm a wanna-not-be-a-swinger. I mean, it sounds fun and all but The School of Life has a pretty good video on how polyamory isn't for most people. Some people can't stand their videos (YouTube), but I think they're pretty good. The people who make the videos are anti-religion and I am not, but other than that they make good points.

Anyway, I have suggested counseling many times but she won't go. I am not an equal partner in this marriage otherwise I wouldn't be told to keep my views quiet. That is about to change. What is she going to do, kick me out? I don't think so. I need to remember that I need to act like an equal partner in this marriage whether she treats me as one or not. I cannot wait for her to say, "Ok Dear, today I'm going to treat your ideas and opinions as equal to mine." Never going to happen. 

I also agree that I shouldn't get involved in justifying my views--don't like them? Go home!


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## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

WilliamM said:


> Yes, they are trying to make your relationship sexual. Yes, they want to get naked with you two so they can get frisky with you two.


I disagree with this statement. I somehow feel the couple would want to leave me out in the cold (pun intended). :wink2: Not going to happen, though. My wife isn't a swinger either.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

There are many possibilities regarding what they want.

As for your wife: do you honestly expect her to be the one to speak up and set the boundaries?

My wife and I are children of the sixties, so perhaps we are old fashioned, but we have observed many young couples who are more old fashioned than us. We think your wife expects YOU to step forward and take care of setting boundaries. She is waiting for you to be a man, and do your duty.

It looks extremely weak for you to wait for your wife to take care of something that needs to be taken care of. 

Or does your wife expect you to just meekly demure to her decisions? Have you two discussed this? Does your wife get upset if you are protective of her?

Right now you are acting like her child rather than her Knight. Get off your ass and take care of your marriage.

Good luck. I am harsh, but I think you need it, and might actually benefit from it.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

This makes me really glad that I don't even talk to any of my neighbors. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

WilliamM said:


> There are many possibilities regarding what they want.
> 
> As for your wife: do you honestly expect her to be the one to speak up and set the boundaries?
> 
> ...


Harsh, but correct. She says she wants me to be the man (her knight) but her reactions to what I say and do suggest otherwise. However, leaders have to lead even when their decisions aren't popular. One way in which I feel that I get caught in a quandary is when one of her friends or relatives violates our boundaries. She says that since it is her friend or relative that she should take care of it, but I think I should have some input in how she does take care of it or I can say, "You aren't taking care of it" if she isn't doing the right thing. Often she'll say she shouldn't have told me about something if I disagree with how she handled it. She seems to expect me to defer to her when her friends or relatives say things in front of both of us, but I think this is unrealistic. If her female friend says, "We should go (insert inappropriate activity," I am well within my rights to say, "We don't do that." I have found that that phrase, "We don't do that," is very powerful and very short and sweet. Naked hot tub time? "We don't do that." Swinging? "We don't do that." Clubbing and bar hopping? "We don't do that." 

Yes, I see now that I can't cower in the face of disagreement.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

These aren't friends. They are enemies of your marriage. Cut ties with them completely. Have a good talk with your wife about boundaries.


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## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

Inloveforeverwithhubby said:


> These aren't friends. They are enemies of your marriage. Cut ties with them completely. Have a good talk with your wife about boundaries.


I'm definitely starting to see that. :surprise:


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

My wife is different than most, but it always surprises me how many other women seem to be similar. My wife is very submissive to me, but will test me from time to time. 

When I stand firm for the boundaries I have set, she ends up melting in appreciation of me. So I know what I can do without a problem. You will have to discover that for yourself.

As a disclaimer I will say my wife is bisexual and we have played with other people. I believe we recognize what your neighbors are doing.


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## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

WilliamM said:


> As a disclaimer I will say my wife is bisexual and we have played with other people. I believe we recognize what your neighbors are doing.


Wow, if you were to say, "You're naive cuz you've never 'played with other people'" I would have not been surprised. So, seeing you write that you believe you recognized what they are doing confirms it for me. I think the neighbor's wife is bored, lonely, doesn't like her husband and wants to try and groom my wife.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Can you just tell your wife you have zero interest in seeing the neighbors naked .

What neighbor insists on using YOUR hot tub naked or in a suit?

Tell these bugs to get their own GD hot tub.


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## Tony Conrad (Oct 7, 2013)

Good advice. Nothing to add. Your sexual life is only between your wife and yoursefl. Any third parties seriously takes away from the stability of a happy marriage.


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## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

Wow!!!! I just hear the term "gaslighting" and looked it up. 

From Wikipedia: Gaslighting is a form of manipulation that seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, hoping to make them question their own memory, perception, and sanity. Using persistent denial, misdirection, contradiction, and lying, it attempts to destabilize the target and delegitimize the target's belief.[1][2]

Yeah, I see what is up now.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

RaceTrack1975 said:


> Ouch! Painful but I can't disagree. I really do not believe my wife is doing anything inappropriate behind my back. However, I do agree that she is too soft on them when it comes to boundaries. Yes, I need to say no with strength and conviction. My wife doesn't seem to like for me to put my foot down when it comes to them. Well, that has to stop--or rather my weakness on the matter has to stop. To the person who said they have a sense of entitlement, you are quite correct. Time to build some better fences (metaphorically ... I don't think spending money on a privacy fence would do much good).
> 
> She actually is wishy-washy about the boundaries. One minute she is wanting to plant large foliage during the spring/summer between our house and theirs for more privacy from them, but then when they say something like this she comes across weak. I have often thought they are wannabe swingers. Well, I'm a wanna-not-be-a-swinger. I mean, it sounds fun and all but The School of Life has a pretty good video on how polyamory isn't for most people. Some people can't stand their videos (YouTube), but I think they're pretty good. The people who make the videos are anti-religion and I am not, but other than that they make good points.
> 
> ...


You aught to purchase the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy". It may help you find your strength and will.


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## Slartibartfast (Nov 7, 2017)

..


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

You should definitely never get involved in trying to justify your own opinion. For one thing that shows weakness.

Your house, your rules. No discussion or justification ever needed. Anyone who asks you why is being totally out of line.

If you were at their house and they were making moves on your wife, you should leave, without discussion. Never stop to explain yourself. As soon as you fall to that bait, you lost power to the person who got you to think you need to explain.

You NEVER need to explain your morals, unless you happen to want to in a mellow way to someone you happen to like as part of an interesting conversation.

And I am someone who probably has very different opinions than you. But I can handle people thinking very differently than me, and enjoy finding common ground rather than the tiny islands of differences.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

RaceTrack1975 said:


> The husband has said things (of a sexual nature) that I find offensive and troubling, the wife has exposed herself to me and was, to use her own words, "handsy" with my wife one New Year's Eve among other similar questionable incidents.


 I'd venture this isn't so much the neighbor wife grooming your wife as it is both of them grooming your wife for a threesome, and they think that you are weak enough for them to push you aside. You need to set them straight and create/discuss some serious boundaries with your wife to make sure you and she are on the same page.


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## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

Slartibartfast said:


> Yeah. We knew you were more than halfway there when you asked if you were crazy. Now I wonder who suggested that.


I was watching a video on YouTube about boundaries and someone in the comments said "he's gaslighting" about a situation that was mentioned in the video. I had never heard this before and decided to do a search for it. Wow! "You wouldn't be upset if I came and watched your new expensive TV at 3 in the morning would you?" Translation, I'm turning this around on you to try and make you look like a jerk for not wanting me in your house at 3 in the morning and now I expect you to defend your side. I've been the target of this kind of behavior many times in my life. 

I've watched many videos and read many books about boundaries and assertiveness. And, while I appreciate the suggestion of yet another book to read, I think it just comes down to doing it. My wife and I need to be on the same page about these things and if she is willing to tolerate behavior that I'm not then she and I need to talk. If she won't see where I'm coming from then I think it's time to insist on counseling. I've let _her _ dictate _our_ boundaries for long enough.


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## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

BioFury said:


> You aught to purchase the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy". It may help you find your strength and will.


I am listening to an ex·cerpt from this book (the Intro and Ch. 1). Wow! I need this book.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

'No' is a complete sentence. These people are so stupid that they can't think to bring a bathrobe to change into for their one house walk home? 

If you feel the need to justify, argue, defend and explain to your wife, just tell her you don't do 'stupid'.


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## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

So, I'm reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and it is me to a tee. I hear there are support group for "nice guys," but I don't see any in my area. I'd love to start one, but I'm afraid it would be like an alcoholic trying to start his own AA group or something--not very effective.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

While you are reading, google [email protected] test. Leave out the @. We are not allowed to say that here or get around the rule. However, I have no idea how else to tell you what you really need to see. It’s a test designed to push your buttons and then see if you react correctly or cower like a dog.
For example you don’t run on with an explanation you just give an answer and that it.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

RaceTrack1975 said:


> So, I'm reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and it is me to a tee. I hear there are support group for "nice guys," but I don't see any in my area. I'd love to start one, but I'm afraid it would be like an alcoholic trying to start his own AA group or something--not very effective.


I believe there is an online forum that you can join and use to interact with others. Perhaps not as good as personal meetings, but still valuable.

http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/forums/


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

RaceTrack1975 said:


> So, I'm reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and it is me to a tee. I hear there are support group for "nice guys," but I don't see any in my area. I'd love to start one, but I'm afraid it would be like an alcoholic trying to start his own AA group or something--not very effective.


Lots of online forums and sites to read. I have a website that I will not promote, but I will just say that I get a lot of regular emails from guys exactly like you. Usually, they come to me after they catch their wife in an affair or she leaves for no discernable reason. 

Oh, and your neighbors are swingers and they're trying to grooom your wife. She should be flattered and firmly say no thank you. You should, in no uncertain terms, let her know that she is a big girl and can put up boundaries herself. Their behavior obviously crossed the line. You're not always going to be around to smack her hand and tell her no when such situations come up (and they will come up, repeatedly).


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

RaceTrack1975 said:


> <snip>My wife and I need to be on the same page about these things and if she is willing to tolerate behavior that I'm not then she and I need to talk. If she won't see where I'm coming from then I think it's time to insist on counseling. I've let _her _ dictate _our_ boundaries for long enough.


This is a problem.

You don't see that she is waiting for you to MAKE A STAND. She cannot follow, because you will not lead.

Has your wife told you she wants to have sex with the other couple? That would be dictating a boundary, for sure. But if nothing is being said, and you are just letting the other couple push you two around, it is obvious your wife is just waiting and waiting for YOU TO LEAD.

Get out there and lead, damn it.


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## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

WilliamM said:


> This is a problem.
> 
> You don't see that she is waiting for you to MAKE A STAND. She cannot follow, because you will not lead.
> 
> ...


She has often said in the past that she doesn't want me to say anything in front of them to upset or offend them, but I'm no longer ok wiith that. I need to be ok offending them and losing her approval. If they say something that I don't like I'm going to start saying, "I don't find that funny and I'd appreciate you not say it anymore." I'm tempted to add, "And, I don't think you are intending to be funny anyway."


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

RaceTrack1975 said:


> She has often said in the past that she doesn't want me to say anything in front of them to upset or offend them, but I'm no longer ok wiith that. I need to be ok offending them and losing her approval. If they say something that I don't like I'm going to start saying, "I don't find that funny and I'd appreciate you not say it anymore." I'm tempted to add, "And, I don't think you are intending to be funny anyway."


My wife Mary said, when she read this: "That just means his wife wants to (have sex with) 'em!"

There are only two things you can do with those people. Either give in, or insult them. They are obviously not taking being ignored as "No", so they just aren't going to back off until told NO in big letters.

But then maybe your wife isn't all hot and bothered and wanting to jump into bed with them. Maybe your wife is a weak person who also can't stand to insult anyone.

As you may have guessed, it is probable I have insulted everyone I know at some time or other. But I've apologized to a handful of them.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

A pox on pushy neighbors!


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