# Nudging her with other women (it worked)



## ohno

To make a long story short, my wifes main issues with me are laying around the house and not helping with our five young kids. Also my anger issues (I never struck her or the kids, but there is a point where I see black and have to walk out of the house for 20 minutes or so). 

My main issues with her are her never wanting to spend time with me unless it is as "parents", her going out constantly with her mother. Ya my demonic MIL is in her 60's but she is non-stop in the casino and always always always pushes for my wife to join her. 

MIL buys "going out" clothes for my wife which my wife would never buy, including skin-tight camel toe pants, short skirts, skin tight tank tops and low cut blouses. My wife is built really really well,dd, thin waist, wide hips nice round ass, really light carmel color skin and an exotic beauty from being from a ton of different nationalities. 

My wife knows that dressing like that bothers me. I never told her how to dress. When we met she wore baggier clothes that didn't show off her body and always said she wanted to be noticed for her mind and personality and not just her body. I always told her I loved that about her. I would never tell anyone how to dress, but I also definitely would not take any woman seriously (as a prospective mate) who always dressed to show off her body. She wears these clothes when she goes out with her mother. It is like her mother is proud of the guys leering at my wife and encourages my wife to enjoy the attention. To the extent where my wife confessed once that while passing the casino bar, her mom spotted a few successful looking younger guys drinking, approached the guys 
and said, "Hey guys, that hot girl over there is my daughter and it is her birthday, won't anyone buy her a drink?"  On a side note karma visited the old hag with a nice malignant tumor (just found out about this a few months ago). 

I trust my wife and had that trust reaffirmed with the help of a keystroke logger and a voice activated mic in the car. Also, her cell and backup cell are always clear of strange numbers or any kind of shadyness. 

We had a stellar sex life up until a few months ago, and sex went from once or more every day to once a month. It has been a couple weeks now. 

A couple of weeks ago, my wife said she wanted a divorce and there was no way to reconcile. I kept asking her every few days if there were any chance of working on things and she'd say no. 

So I went about changing myself for my own good. I treat the house as if I were single raising the kids by myself- by that I mean I am always on top of taking care of them, I clean constantly, and just do things as they need done. I have my anger under control, have been to support groups and so on. 

And I made some female friends. Truly just friends, but since my wife and I were separating and she refused any kind of reconciliation I knew that having these friendships perhaps slowly move towards romance would serve me well. 

My wife noticed these changes in me, and asked me if I wanted to work things out. We had a few breakthrough talks, put our cards on the table and decided to forge on together. 

It was like meeting her all over again because I honestly think I wanted the divorce as badly as she did but did not want to break up the family. Our friendship is new based in new things we are seeing in each other. I even came to the conclusion that when she wears the "going out" cloths she just wants to feel sexy, and I don't even hold her passing enjoyment of the attention against her. After all, I enjoy the attention of women, I like when they check out my package or my bum and am not about to wear looser clothes myself just because I am well endowed and have a nice butt. So I shouldn't hold that against her. 

I stopped talking to the new female friends. None the less, some of the texts and stuff were still on my phone- I have nothing to hide. 

She found my texts from when I was making new friends. "oops". This was last night. She tried to keep her composure and she didn't start crying or anything but she was ranting nervously "OhISeeYou'veMadeNewFriendsICan'tReallyBlameYouBecauseUmIHaven'tBeenThereForYouLately...." I played it off. "You want me to tell you about my friends hun?" She said, "NO, I don't want to know. As long as THAT" she pointed between my legs "wasn't anywhere but HERE" she pointed between her legs "then its none of my business". I told she has a right to know. She shook her head. 

Went to work (I work at night) she calls me at 3am, she hasn't called me at work to say hi for months. She makes small talk then says she can't sleep. She said "it" is bothering her. I asked if she wanted to talk about it. She didn't. I told her I am no longer friends with those women and it won't happen again. I offered her my passwords and so forth that she already has. 

Suddenly today she says she wants to have sex tonight. She wants to spend time with me and then have sex. She went shopping with her mom. She was wearing all baggy clothes. I told her, "Aren't you kind of dressed down for going out with your mother?" she said she is getting tired of being oggled by other men. Uh uh. Lol. 

I didn't expect my "friendships" to have any affect on her at all really, but apparently they have. The story of those friendships is through those texts. She saw these successful nice looking women were attracted to me and the texts were moving towards a more romantic context as there is all kinds of relationship discussion as a general topic and so on.

In the end, I think being right with yourself and what you are doing means you can be honest without any kind of fear or shame, and that in the end that honesty will serve you well.


----------



## whitehawk

Good for you , she wanted a divorce just because the going got a little uncomfortable, glad you woke her up.

Not sure if it might backfire with mine though because an EA on my side was a big part of us splitting.
lf l want R l think l'd have to do the opposite , never sure bout that one.


----------



## cdbaker

A few warning signs I read...

1. Why were you tracking her with a key logger and a voice activated microphone? Those are awfully invasive steps and typically aren't appropriate unless you have very solid evidence of an affair of some kind, which you didn't describe. It's easy to say "I trust my wife" when those elements are involved, but it isn't really trust at all if you need them.

2. After she initially said she wanted a divorce, it sounds like you did mostly all the right things which is great, and it worked. As for this recent round with her suddenly dressing the way you want, calling to talk at work, sex that night, etc. you need to be very careful with how you respond to it. Yes it is her sudden insecurity that drove those moves, which is fine for when you are trying to wake her up from a divorce cloud, but NOT for a day-to-day marriage. So don't stoke that particular fire for very long, just my two cents.

3. Under "her main issues with you" I hope you have realized how damaging those habits are to a marriage. Five kids?! Holy crap, you need to get in there and carry your load. You'll win her heart and make her wet at the same time, it's really win-win.

4. Under your main issues with her, it sounds like you've accepted that you cant' fault your wife for your MIL's actions. As for her not spending quality time with you, I'd highly recommend you pick up "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. I bet she just doesn't understand how you interpret feelings of love/respect vs. how she does. I bet you are unintentionally leaving one of her "love languages" unfulfilled as well. Seriously, buy the book, it's a short read and very worth it!

Best of luck!


----------



## ohno

whitehawk said:


> Good for you , she wanted a divorce just because the going got a little uncomfortable, glad you woke her up.
> 
> Not sure if it might backfire with mine though because an EA on my side was a big part of us splitting.
> lf l want R l think l'd have to do the opposite , never sure bout that one.


Thanks. For me it was a matter of just trying to live. I thought I was dead to her and she could care less if I talked to a million women. She even at a point told me I needed to find a girlfriend. Part of living, for me, is female companionship. So I chose to go and get it. 

And my slate was entirely clean. I even felt totally guilty and f'd up talking t these other women when my wife was totally rejecting me and wanting to divorce me.


----------



## ohno

cdbaker said:


> A few warning signs I read...
> 
> 1. Why were you tracking her with a key logger and a voice activated microphone? Those are awfully invasive steps and typically aren't appropriate unless you have very solid evidence of an affair of some kind, which you didn't describe. It's easy to say "I trust my wife" when those elements are involved, but it isn't really trust at all if you need them.


This was due to her heavy online flirting, sex chat and multiple EA's. It was advice I was given and I am glad I took it. The online things hurt and certainly would get in the way of reconciliation but we cleared the air on that and she is no longer doing any of that. I simply told her that I don't care who she talks to online or what they talk about as long as I am #1 and when I come home she needs to tell whatever dood that her Man is home and so she going to log off now. As long as I am getting what no other man is getting and as long as no other man gets anything I don't get from her, I am fine with it. Real life sex anything though is a no go and no way would I be ok with her having male friends that she talked to or met. She knows that and she doesn't.



> 2. After she initially said she wanted a divorce, it sounds like you did mostly all the right things which is great, and it worked. As for this recent round with her suddenly dressing the way you want, calling to talk at work, sex that night, etc. you need to be very careful with how you respond to it. Yes it is her sudden insecurity that drove those moves, which is fine for when you are trying to wake her up from a divorce cloud, but NOT for a day-to-day marriage. So don't stoke that particular fire for very long, just my two cents.


Oh you are right. This has caused some trouble and there is no way I am going to push it any further. Really, she wants to work things out, she has me 100%. We didn't end up having sex, and still haven't. :/ In fact, that evening (as I was writing that bit) she got into a car accident (she is fine) which means my car is in the shop so I can't work which damages my role as a provider for right now. And we don't have a damn car. But I am here with her which is a benefit. She doesn't have to do much when I am here anymore lol and I am fine with that. Subsequent nights the kids really ran some heavy interference, and she is towards the end of her cycle so her libido is low. When she menstrates and then comes out of it, it will be high tide again and I I will be ready. :smthumbup:



> 3. Under "her main issues with you" I hope you have realized how damaging those habits are to a marriage. Five kids?! Holy crap, you need to get in there and carry your load. You'll win her heart and make her wet at the same time, it's really win-win.


Long term severe damage. I didn't realize despite her looking me in the eyes several times over the years and crying telling me she can't take it. Now I see it like half my responsibility is working for an income and the other half is the household. To just do what I see needs done and not ask or need to be told. This will take a long time to really affect her because I have told her in the past I would change. 



> 4. Under your main issues with her, it sounds like you've accepted that you cant' fault your wife for your MIL's actions. As for her not spending quality time with you, I'd highly recommend you pick up "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. I bet she just doesn't understand how you interpret feelings of love/respect vs. how she does. I bet you are unintentionally leaving one of her "love languages" unfulfilled as well. Seriously, buy the book, it's a short read and very worth it!
> 
> Best of luck!


Ah, my wife is all about time with me now. When it rains it pours. She is trying her heart out and I love her for it. I blames her for MIL's actions and have since ceased. 

But I see her slowly becoming like MIL and it i something I desperately want to stop. Everything is oversexualized with MIL. She has tried to tongue kiss me, has grabbed my butt, lifted up my shirt and petted my abs and it really ticks off my wife. Not to mention it is just incredibly gross. I don't let her do it but she is quick. If MIL and I go anywhere alone (dropping wife off somewhere or going to the store or whatever) my wife says, "If you do anything with my mother you are a piece of sht". wtf. Not only is her mom the opposite of what I find attractive in terms of a womans behavior, but ffs she is 60 some years old and HER MOM. 

When I met my wife she hated her mom. Because mom talked to EVERY male she came across and flirted heavily with them. And MIL talks openly about sex all the time. But I know MIL really well, and know that for all her talk she is not the gardening implement (not a rake or a shovel!) she makes herself out to be. Wife is becoming more like MIL but only online as far as I can see. Now the online stuff has stopped for now, but it was a trend I have been noticing as growing the past few years.

I will check out that book. Communication is a MASSIVE problem for my wife. Even telling me when we are cooking together to spread some flour evenly across the bottom of a pan (this happened tonight) she just says "Pour some flour in there" I start pouring the flour and ask her "is this what you want, is this enough" and she says briskly "..just pour some flour in there". Oddly enough being around her sometimes reminds me of working with my dad when I was a kid and he would point at a shelf full of about 50 different tools and say "Hand me that tool" "Which one?" "THAT ONE ARE YOU BLIND I AM POINTING RIGHT AT IT DAMMIT" hahah 

The trick is to just be supernaturally observant and understand exactly what she is doing at any given time so I can, via context, figure out what the hell she is talking about. As far as emotions go I can only go by exactly how she s acting, body language and so on because what she says never makes any sense at all. "Here" handing me a brush and flipping her hair back means she wants me to brush her hair, which for her, is one of the first steps in a pretty complex courting ritual that ends with sex and her being all over me for a few days. 

I brushed her hair tonight while we were watching a movie together, it was actually the first time in years. Later she was giving me sht for something I did months ago and I smiled and told her she is beautiful even when giving me sht. 

To be totally honest we are hardly love birds at this point. Neither of us is totally convinced it will definitely work or that we can be a good couple. But I think we are both convinced that we are each trying our assess off, and are each at least open to the other romantically.


----------



## cdbaker

Hey I enjoyed reading your reply, it sounds like you are both moving in the right direction and willing to be patient with each other as well, so I see no reason you guys won't make it all work out. Here are a few thoughts as I read down your response...

I hadn't realized that she was engaging in lots of flirting, sexual chat and multiple EA's. In fact, you originally said that you trusted her and that the snooping (key loggers, etc.) confirmed that you could trust her. Either way, your granting her your approval to continue to engage in those things is pretty alarming. There are certain things that a married person should simply not share with other members of the opposite sex. Not only can it erode your own intimacy with her over time, but given the right conditions in your relationship, it would be VERY VERY easy for her to unintentionally (or intentionally...) cross the lines you've laid out. If she is having a bad day, or experiencing a period of low self esteem or you're both in a rough patch and she's feeling a little unloved, it would be natural for her to go to one of the guys in her online "male harem" to find a little bit of confidence, emotional support, etc. which are things that only you should be providing. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean here, but as I see it, you are asking for trouble down the road with an "Other than meeting/sex, do whatever you like online with other guys" policy.

Yeah communication is usually an issue. One thing to keep in mind though is that it might not just be her. I don't mean that you both have problems communicating, but simply being male and female means you'll both likely communicate in very different ways. So maybe she does need to communicate better, but you might also want to look into how to listen more effectively too. With that said, it sounds like you already realize that and are actively working on it.

I love the Five Love Languages because it presents such a simple and easy to use concept. No relationship book is the end-all, be-all solution to marital happiness, but this one is such an incredibly easy way to build a love loving, stronger relationship. It's based on the idea that everyone feel's love very differently, ussually based on their upbringing. As an example, A girl who grows up seeing her father bring her mother flowers every Friday for years, or watches her rub her father's feet every night before bed, or any other loving gesture, could easily come to relate those TYPES of loving actions as genuine signs of love. Maybe that same girl never really saw her parents spend long nights alone together, or compliment/say loving words to each other, so she might not see those as loving gestures.

When she grows up and gets married, she'll expect those same TYPES of loving gestures from her husband, and will offer the same in return to show him love. But if he grew up in a household where his parents were constantly joined at the hip, touching/cuddling whenever possible and saying wonderful things to each other, he'll interpret the gestures she shows very differently. This sets up a conflict. She'll bring or make him gifts, or offer to rub his shoulders, make him coffee in the morning, pick up his dry cleaning for him, etc. but he won't realize that these are her attempts to show him love. Instead he'll expect that she should want to spend a lot of time with him, touch and cuddle with him, and wants to hear her compliment him or appreciate him verbally. Those are things she doesn't relate to however. So ultimately they both love each other very much, but by showing it in such different ways, they are effectively not speaking the same "language". So the book just breaks those love efforts into five categories and helps show you how you can very easily spend a few minutes a day reconnecting in a big way.

For my wife, I learned that her main "love language" is words of affirmation. Verbal compliments, verbal cues of affection or admiration, etc. I don't need that at all to feel loved, I'm more of a physical touch or acts of service guy. So for me, I've made it a habit to make sure I compliment her at least once and show her verbal appreciation once every single day. It really isn't difficult. In fact, I even started writing one of them on a note card every night (or sometimes I might cheat and write a few in advance) and then in the morning would leave it in a different place where she would find it. Like taped to the bathroom mirror, in the front seat of her car, sticking out of her purse, etc. So imagine her now. She knows that every single day I am going out of my way to specifically show her that I do indeed love her, in a way that does not come naturally to me at all but is worth it to me nonetheless, plus she gets that note card surprise which she now looks forward to.

And it only takes me literally a few minutes a day. It won't solve everything of course, but if you can ensure that you both feel each others love 100% of the time, and that alone will change the course/mood of disagreements, conflicts, etc.


----------



## ohno

cdbaker said:


> Hey I enjoyed reading your reply, it sounds like you are both moving in the right direction and willing to be patient with each other as well, so I see no reason you guys won't make it all work out. Here are a few thoughts as I read down your response...
> 
> I hadn't realized that she was engaging in lots of flirting, sexual chat and multiple EA's. In fact, you originally said that you trusted her and that the snooping (key loggers, etc.) confirmed that you could trust her. Either way, your granting her your approval to continue to engage in those things is pretty alarming. There are certain things that a married person should simply not share with other members of the opposite sex. Not only can it erode your own intimacy with her over time, but given the right conditions in your relationship, it would be VERY VERY easy for her to unintentionally (or intentionally...) cross the lines you've laid out. If she is having a bad day, or experiencing a period of low self esteem or you're both in a rough patch and she's feeling a little unloved, it would be natural for her to go to one of the guys in her online "male harem" to find a little bit of confidence, emotional support, etc. which are things that only you should be providing. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean here, but as I see it, you are asking for trouble down the road with an "Other than meeting/sex, do whatever you like online with other guys" policy.


I do trust her. She hasn't lied to me, and is really very open and honest with me when I ask her about who her friends are and what do they talk about- so long as I don't bite her head off when she tells me. 

I have told her repeatedly that her doing it will change how I feel about her. She sees it as a control issue. Like I am a jealous controlling husband. The first ea I caught her in was a big blow up and I was ready to leave. This was a few years ago. She totally stopped all inappropriate chatting with other males. A lot of this revolved around facebook games. We agreed to not "do" fb because it is too much trouble. That lasted a couple years. 

After that I felt safe to suggest we start new fb "family" pages with shared passwords and so on. A few months later and she has like 5 fb accounts and is right back at it. But I was #1, was over affectioned, over sexed and bathed in attention by her when I was home. So I didn't really care. I still said it is not right and she ended up closing those fb pages. 

There is a multiplayer game I used to play online. She HATED it, to be honest unless she is online doing her own thing she HATES anything I do that is not her. Her ideal would be me and her doing nothing but paying attention to each other 24/7. I am someone who reads books and likes to have an hour or so alone time to read or whatever. She always HATED that. 

So it made sense to me to try to get her to play this game. She finally did ad at first it was paradise. I was doing exactly what I wanted to do WITH her doing it with me. Then the sexual innuendo and heavy flirting with the male players, my friends online. Then the fb games and that whole nasty bit again. And that continued right up to a couple weeks ago. I will never play that game again because she has embarrassed me so bad. They all know she is my wife. She says she is just joking around. About dildos and any kind of imaginable sexual innuendo. Ya thats really ****ing funny. And she said I am a controlling jealous insecure pig for being hurt and offended by it. My response has always been that she is the controlling one because she is forcing me to watch her sacrifice our monogamy on a virtual alter as punishment for not giving her attention 24/7. That manipulation is an attempt at control. 

It has gone so far as me canceling the internet service for weeks at a time, and those were some good weeks. And she even asks me to not get it put back on. She says she doesn't need it. It is just trouble. 

It aggravates me that she is too emotionally retarded to be able to handle something as simple as internet service without wrecking our marriage. I know I know....

It is something we are working on. She has stopped for now with no commitment to remain stopped or acknowledgement of how fked up it is. Yes I gave her "permission", but that is because I really am not a controlling person and want her to stop of her own volition. Like stop because you know its not right, not because I told you to stop. 




> Yeah communication is usually an issue. One thing to keep in mind though is that it might not just be her. I don't mean that you both have problems communicating, but simply being male and female means you'll both likely communicate in very different ways. So maybe she does need to communicate better, but you might also want to look into how to listen more effectively too. With that said, it sounds like you already realize that and are actively working on it.
> 
> I love the Five Love Languages because it presents such a simple and easy to use concept. No relationship book is the end-all, be-all solution to marital happiness, but this one is such an incredibly easy way to build a love loving, stronger relationship. It's based on the idea that everyone feel's love very differently, ussually based on their upbringing. As an example, A girl who grows up seeing her father bring her mother flowers every Friday for years, or watches her rub her father's feet every night before bed, or any other loving gesture, could easily come to relate those TYPES of loving actions as genuine signs of love. Maybe that same girl never really saw her parents spend long nights alone together, or compliment/say loving words to each other, so she might not see those as loving gestures.
> 
> When she grows up and gets married, she'll expect those same TYPES of loving gestures from her husband, and will offer the same in return to show him love. But if he grew up in a household where his parents were constantly joined at the hip, touching/cuddling whenever possible and saying wonderful things to each other, he'll interpret the gestures she shows very differently. This sets up a conflict. She'll bring or make him gifts, or offer to rub his shoulders, make him coffee in the morning, pick up his dry cleaning for him, etc. but he won't realize that these are her attempts to show him love. Instead he'll expect that she should want to spend a lot of time with him, touch and cuddle with him, and wants to hear her compliment him or appreciate him verbally. Those are things she doesn't relate to however. So ultimately they both love each other very much, but by showing it in such different ways, they are effectively not speaking the same "language". So the book just breaks those love efforts into five categories and helps show you how you can very easily spend a few minutes a day reconnecting in a big way.
> 
> For my wife, I learned that her main "love language" is words of affirmation. Verbal compliments, verbal cues of affection or admiration, etc. I don't need that at all to feel loved, I'm more of a physical touch or acts of service guy. So for me, I've made it a habit to make sure I compliment her at least once and show her verbal appreciation once every single day. It really isn't difficult. In fact, I even started writing one of them on a note card every night (or sometimes I might cheat and write a few in advance) and then in the morning would leave it in a different place where she would find it. Like taped to the bathroom mirror, in the front seat of her car, sticking out of her purse, etc. So imagine her now. She knows that every single day I am going out of my way to specifically show her that I do indeed love her, in a way that does not come naturally to me at all but is worth it to me nonetheless, plus she gets that note card surprise which she now looks forward to.
> 
> And it only takes me literally a few minutes a day. It won't solve everything of course, but if you can ensure that you both feel each others love 100% of the time, and that alone will change the course/mood of disagreements, conflicts, etc.


hah I would agree that the start of any fix in communications is all involved parties being willing to work on their own input and output. 

I THINK her "language" to me is actions. When she wants to be affectionate with me she will do all kinds of stuff for me. A hot bath, cooking exactly what I want to eat, rearranging my computer desk and organizing my stuff "for me" and so on. And just spontaneous quiet affection. A lot of it. That last one is the best. She feels good, looks good, smells good. If I try to talk its "shhh". 

I have tried to communicate back to her in this way and it usually works when I keep at it, but I have my own receptors that she is totally ignorant of. Like just sit and talk to me. Affectionate is good but it doesn't have to be constant. Where I am concerned she is always in one of these states:

1. Unhappy with me: Ignoring me totally and getting mad when I try to say anything. This is part of the reason why I think she might not be real smart. Either that or she is just really ignorant. She will stare at her show or the computer screen or whatever in a trance and not respond to anything I say. 

Lets say her name is Shelly. "Hey Shelly did you make the appointment to get the dog his vaccination?" Nothing for like 3 minutes despite me having said it loudly and clearly while facing her and looking directly at her head. "Hey Shelly?" Nothing. "Shel..."nope, "Shelbel Shelly. Shel" Notta. "Shelshelshelshelshelly. Shelbelshellyshelshelshel". Still eyes locked on what she is doing.

If I bang pots and pans directly behind her or snap my fingers rapidly in front of her eyes to confirm that she has not turned zombie on me she gets really mad, "Huh wha...WHAT!?! _What do you want???_". lol wtfff

2. Really unhappy with me: After a long session of sitting there essentially motionless and staring at her screen, she will explode into action picking up toys and stomping around loudly *****ing about everything under the sun. She will start epic house projects that take hours at like 1am when she meant to just pick up real quick before bed and god help me if I don't run around behind her helping. 

3. Happy with me: She will soak me in non stop attention, sex, everything for hours and days and weeks straight if uninterrupted. God forbid I have to go to work or if I want to read the newspaper or watch a tv show during this because then she goes back to state 1. Before we had kids and when I owned a business and could afford to not show up at the office every day, we would literally spend days in a row doing nothing but having sex, laughing, ordering out, holding each other, walking around the house totally naked. If I got on the computer for two minutes, or read a book for 10 seconds or anything but give her attention, the boobs were out and in my face, like literally smashed right in my face. "Oh I was just reaching for something". When that stopped working after awhile because, like, I love her to death but for gods sake I need additional sensory input, she started the #1thing. Like I had totally rejected her. 

There is no in-between anything. No balance or a greater or lesser degree, it always full on over the top extremely intense or absolutely nothing. 

ya I'll read that book. 

sorry for writing one here


----------



## LoveAtDaisys

You've made good progress, ohno! I'd just add one thing:

You call her "emotionally retarded" here. You say she's not real smart. You apparently will SNAP YOUR FINGERS at her. I'm sorry, I don't even snap at my dogs. Have you tried just gently shaking or touching her shoulder or arm while you talk to her? Have you tried talking to her about her tendency to zone out?

It's possible she may want to see a doctor about her issues - I'm no doctor, I'd hazard a guess at possible OCD tendencies or maybe ADD?

But you, as her husband, shouldn't be insulting her.


----------



## Catherine602

cdbaker said:


> A few warning signs I read...
> 
> 1. Why were you tracking her with a key logger and a voice activated microphone? Those are awfully invasive steps and typically aren't appropriate unless you have very solid evidence of an affair of some kind, which you didn't describe. It's easy to say "I trust my wife" when those elements are involved, but it isn't really trust at all if you need them.
> 
> 2. After she initially said she wanted a divorce, it sounds like you did mostly all the right things which is great, and it worked. As for this recent round with her suddenly dressing the way you want, calling to talk at work, sex that night, etc. you need to be very careful with how you respond to it. Yes it is her sudden insecurity that drove those moves, which is fine for when you are trying to wake her up from a divorce cloud, but NOT for a day-to-day marriage. So don't stoke that particular fire for very long, just my two cents.
> 
> 3. Under "her main issues with you" I hope you have realized how damaging those habits are to a marriage. Five kids?! Holy crap, you need to get in there and carry your load. You'll win her heart and make her wet at the same time, it's really win-win.
> 
> 4. Under your main issues with her, it sounds like you've accepted that you cant' fault your wife for your MIL's actions. As for her not spending quality time with you, I'd highly recommend you pick up "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. I bet she just doesn't understand how you interpret feelings of love/respect vs. how she does. I bet you are unintentionally leaving one of her "love languages" unfulfilled as well. Seriously, buy the book, it's a short read and very worth it!
> 
> Best of luck!


I agree with everything you wrote except, not putting the blame for her mothers actions on your wife. She is largely responsible for her mothers toxic interference and attempt to break up your marriage. I think that spouses are a team. They have each others back and their relationship comes before other family members. 

Her mother is activly disrespecting you, your marriage and your wife. Your wife needs to step up and side with her husband. She should not tolerate any threats to your union and disrepect to her husband. She can easily shut down the mothers attempt to scuttle her marriage. Tell mom to stop the machinations and affirm that she loves you , is committed to you and intends to stay married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ohno

LoveAtDaisys said:


> You've made good progress, ohno! I'd just add one thing:
> 
> You call her "emotionally retarded" here. You say she's not real smart. You apparently will SNAP YOUR FINGERS at her. I'm sorry, I don't even snap at my dogs. Have you tried just gently shaking or touching her shoulder or arm while you talk to her? Have you tried talking to her about her tendency to zone out?
> 
> It's possible she may want to see a doctor about her issues - I'm no doctor, I'd hazard a guess at possible OCD tendencies or maybe ADD?
> 
> But you, as her husband, shouldn't be insulting her.


Your right. I am just that way but need to not be that way towards her. Maybe I am the one who is emotionally retarded or maybe even what we got is when tards attack each other. hah! 

I have tried getting up and standing and saying, "Shelly did you hear me, I asked you a question." She has gotten a little better
with this 1. 

I have talked to her at length about it and she always says that she responded the first time I asked but I have gone as far as taping it to prove it. She says the recorder just didn't pick up her response. She doesn't admit to there being a problem but instead has gotten a bit more responsive.


----------



## ohno

Catherine602 said:


> I agree with everything you wrote except, not putting the blame for her mothers actions on your wife. She is largely responsible for her mothers toxic interference and attempt to break up your marriage. I think that spouses are a team. They have each others back and their relationship comes before other family members.
> 
> Her mother is activly disrespecting you, your marriage and your wife. Your wife needs to step up and side with her husband. She should not tolerate any threats to your union and disrepect to her husband. She can easily shut down the mothers attempt to scuttle her marriage. Tell mom to stop the machinations and affirm that she loves you , is committed to you and intends to stay married.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is pretty much exactly what I say. My wifes reasoning is that I failed to have her back so she went to the next closest thing. 

When my wife had issues with my mother being too involved or having too much influence, I told my wife she has the same problem with her mom. My wife said there is an irish proverb that says "A man says goodbye to his mother when he takes a wife, by a daughter is a daughter for life.". I was like "your not even irish or anything like it for 1, and for 2 that is really one sided and probably the worst proverb I have ever heard in my life". She was like, "Well its true". Nah. No way. 

There is some history there- wife pretty much cut all ties with MIL during the first few years of our relationship due to the reasons I am stating. Wife grew REALLY close to my family. But wife also has an incredible mouth and bitter attitude. Like if I was the one ignoring her on the puter she would get right in my face and scream "HELLOHELLO I AM TALKING TO YOU". My wife gave me so much sht in those days and was so young (she was 18 i was 28, I am now 42 and she is 32) that I told her to lose the attitude or just get out. Which became just get out. She did and we were split up for 2 years. During that time she re-bonded with her mom. Then we got back together, and 12 years later here we are.

I have an admission to make- we were together for those 12 years but only decided to get married _right before_ the whole blow up a couple weeks ago. MIL was married SIX TIMES the old coot was married SIX TIMES. So though we have been living as husband and wife for 12 years, it has only been legal/official for about two months. A couple weeks ago she said it wasgoing to be the shortest marriage ever. 

Yep, lots of issues. I hope we make it through them. But I am not as border-line suicidally obsessed with it nowas I was a couple weeks ago. Now I know I really don't need her as my wife or my woman or whatever, but I do love her deeply. In the end it really hits home for both of us that it isn't the kids, it isn't the wack marriage, it isn't the relationship or any of that. It is the fact that we both risk losing our very best friend. 

Ya she is my best friend and I am hers and that is how we ALWAYS rolled, Bonnie and Clyde FTW, who can stop the both of us???? We both cried pretty hard together at the reality that is dying. And we decided to stop it from dying.


----------



## cdbaker

As far as the "steps" 1 and 2 you mentioned before, that is pretty common in my house too. Heck even I will do it. For either my wife or I, if one of us is already exhausted, ticked off or frustrated about something else, all it will take is us stepping barefoot on a stray lego or knocking over a cup on a crowded table by accident to explode and suddenly see everything around us as an absolute wreck of a house/room, and need to start on a multi-hour cleaning project regardless of the time of day or other commitments. Typically it helps. The room get's cleaned and within an hour or so, we've calmed down and are communicating better. Maybe we are broken, heck if I know.

As far as your wife's online flirting and such... this is just my opinion and I've probably made it clear already, but again I think it's a really bad idea to openly allow it, even if you are #1 or otherwise being satisfied. It simply is not healthy for a married spouse to be openly flirting in a sexual way like that. At best, she can control herself from going too far (and it sounds like you've already made it clear that she isn't very good at controlling herself from going to unhealthy levels) and at worst, it develops into something that can quickly cross big bold red lines in the marriage.

I'm not sure which online game you're referring to, but I'm guessing it's World of Warcraft of Eve Online or something similar. If you have found yourself playing those for hours on end for multiple days a week, then you probably have a problem with those yourself. Heck, maybe she was willing to get into it with you just as an attempt to vie for your attention, and the intense flirting within the game could have been her way of trying to make you jealous? Heck, all of her flirting might originate from a desire to make you jealous and get you to fight for her, woo her, or otherwise "take" her in a sexually dominant way, especially is she has indicated that she frequently feel's like you aren't paying enough attention to her.

(Of course, we only have your side of the story here. From your perspective, you might give her tons of attention all the time, but if you weren't, you probably wouldn't know it and certainly wouldn't be able to share it here. So I'm just exploring that possibility based on the bit of evidence that your wife seems to be expressing via her actions.)

Her "Love Language" may very well be acts of service or physical touch it sounds like. Yours might be quality time. The key is to figure out how she interprets and expresses love most naturally (and she the same for you) and commit to showing love to her in those ways every day. If she can feel loved by you, feel confident in fact that you find her sexy, desirable, wonderful, etc., then that will inevitably trickle down to every other aspect of your marriage, including the trouble areas. Maybe she won't feel a need to flirt as much, won't be as mad at you whether you deserve it or not, maybe will give you more free time for yourself since she is already satisfied, etc.


----------



## ohno

cdbaker said:


> As far as the "steps" 1 and 2 you mentioned before, that is pretty common in my house too. Heck even I will do it. For either my wife or I, if one of us is already exhausted, ticked off or frustrated about something else, all it will take is us stepping barefoot on a stray lego or knocking over a cup on a crowded table by accident to explode and suddenly see everything around us as an absolute wreck of a house/room, and need to start on a multi-hour cleaning project regardless of the time of day or other commitments. Typically it helps. The room get's cleaned and within an hour or so, we've calmed down and are communicating better. Maybe we are broken, heck if I know.


Thats reassuring. 



> As far as your wife's online flirting and such... this is just my opinion and I've probably made it clear already, but again I think it's a really bad idea to openly allow it, even if you are #1 or otherwise being satisfied. It simply is not healthy for a married spouse to be openly flirting in a sexual way like that. At best, she can control herself from going too far (and it sounds like you've already made it clear that she isn't very good at controlling herself from going to unhealthy levels) and at worst, it develops into something that can quickly cross big bold red lines in the marriage.


Well this is probably the central thing that could block our reconciliation. She hasn't done this since she said she wanted to start working on things to save the marriage. This wasn't discussed at that time, she will not talk at all about anything having to do with reconciliation unless it starts as an argument, which I refuse to participate in. I honestly do not know what she is thinking or how she feels but I definitely get the feeling she feels totally justified in anything she does or says. 



> I'm not sure which online game you're referring to, but I'm guessing it's World of Warcraft of Eve Online or something similar. If you have found yourself playing those for hours on end for multiple days a week, then you probably have a problem with those yourself.


 Well I did years ago during a period of time she just refuses to let go of and which she sees me through entirely. But I haven't played any games at all for weeks. 



> Heck, maybe she was willing to get into it with you just as an attempt to vie for your attention, and the intense flirting within the game could have been her way of trying to make you jealous? Heck, all of her flirting might originate from a desire to make you jealous and get you to fight for her, woo her, or otherwise "take" her in a sexually dominant way, especially is she has indicated that she frequently feel's like you aren't paying enough attention to her.


It is probably part this and part just getting attention from anyone period. She is someone who will drop a nuclear bomb in your face in retaliation for saying "boo" to her. She will cut your balls and then scream at you for not having any balls. 



> (Of course, we only have your side of the story here. From your perspective, you might give her tons of attention all the time, but if you weren't, you probably wouldn't know it and certainly wouldn't be able to share it here. So I'm just exploring that possibility based on the bit of evidence that your wife seems to be expressing via her actions.)


 yep it is either all or nothing with her. 



> Her "Love Language" may very well be acts of service or physical touch it sounds like. Yours might be quality time. The key is to figure out how she interprets and expresses love most naturally (and she the same for you) and commit to showing love to her in those ways every day. If she can feel loved by you, feel confident in fact that you find her sexy, desirable, wonderful, etc., then that will inevitably trickle down to every other aspect of your marriage, including the trouble areas. Maybe she won't feel a need to flirt as much, won't be as mad at you whether you deserve it or not, maybe will give you more free time for yourself since she is already satisfied, etc.


Lots of work and I am up to it, I just wish she would talk. I am a talker, and not a bs around the bush talker, but straight. 

Here is an example of us, this was today:

Thurs night I had to work 11pm to 9am, all driving. At 5pm I told her I would need to rest a few hours or I would not be safe to drive. She got pissed off, "Yaofcoursewhatever". I laid down and the damned house was so loud with the kids that I couldn't sleep. She usually makes an effort to keep them from being too loud (sending them outside so on) but last night she just didn't. They kept coming upstairs and knocking on my door and so on. So I didn't sleep and she knew it. 

Fri morning I come home from work at 9am, the kids are just waking up. I wash, change diapers, do the dishes, wipe all the counters, clean the mess the animals made of the trash outside during the night, swept the hardwoord floors with a broom and vaccumed the throw rugs, cooked the kids and her pancakes and stuff, let the dogs out, let the dogs in, changed the kittlitter box, and let her sleep. Finally at 11am I woke her up by laying next to her and stroking her head gently and offering her some breakfast and coffee.  

We held each other in bed for about 10 minutes and she got up and went into the kitchen and started complaining right away about everything. Like really hardcore complaining. Ok she just woke up, we are pissy when we wake up. But she kept it up. I was ready to pass out (had been awake a little over 24 hours at this point.) She was blasting "sweet nothings" by calvin harris over and over again. I am like "ok she is trying to tell me something". The main part of the song goes "its hard to love when your giving me such sweet nothing". What the **** is that supposed to mean? I had been kind, affectionate, got all of the housework done, fed the kids, fed her and somehow I was giving her nothing?? 


I had to go to the store. I went to the store and came back and told her about a deal I got on some food I bought. She said, "What, did you get a blowjob??". 

huhhhhhh??? I said, "Why would you say that". No response. Going twice, "You didn't hear me I asked why would you say that" going three times, and I asked one last time and was ignored and felt like biting her face off. There is this stupid lady that works at the store that my wife doesn't like but who is friendly with me despite the fact I pay her absolutely no attention and find her unattractive. What else could she be talking about. If I had my wits about me I would have immediately replied, "I only get blowjobs from you and its been awhile HON". 

So now it is like 2pm and my stupid ****ing boss is calling me for off hours work, he really needs me to come in and all that, my wife has a movie cued up she wants me to watch with her (her way of showing affection- spending time with me). Really it is just the last 20 minutes of a movie we saw most of before. By now I am stoopid tired. We watch that last 20 minutes over the course of the next hour because of interruptions from everyone. 

So at 3, even though I said at like 1pm I needed to sleep for work, I tell her I am finally going to crash because I will have to work tonight at 11 and I haven't slept at all for a long time. She goes, "Ya whatever" and has a really pissed look on her face. I told her to not hold it against me, but I need sleep to survive. She ignored me. In her mind all I do is sleep and work and play on the computer. Why doesn't she notice all the stuff I do, or at least acknowledge it?? I am on the computer maybe an hour a day at the very most and only when everything that needs done is done. 

In her defense she IS on her period and is absolutely miserable, everything aside. 

I am really tired of feeling like I have to always kiss her ass and make up to her. But if I don't do that she will rage on me and start all kinds of arguments. Her internet flirting is buried all the way in the back of that horrific mess. 

We will see what happens. Either way, I am changed forever and will never go back to being that guy who just goes to work and sleeps and doesn't help her at all. At the end of the year, provided I keep good on what I promise, if there is still internet flirting and her going out with her mom 4 out of 7 days a week and her just being a total rude *****, I am going to serve her papers myself and get the **** out of this. I deserve better.


----------



## cdbaker

Well, it sounds like you had/have an issue with the computer and games, and that perhaps it was a problem as recently as weeks ago. It'll take a long time for her to get over that so you need to be understanding of that. An hour of computer time a day also seems like a bit much when you are trying to show her that you aren't addicted to the computer.

Working completely opposite hours is also clearly an issue. Is there any way you could change your hours? Otherwise yes, I can see where she is coming from if she see's you working 10 hours a day, then sleeping 6-8 hours a day, then spending a few hours on the computer, all the while she is dealing with four kids running around to take care of. While I'm sure you help a little here and there as you mentioned, my guess it that the amount of help you've been offering only just recently increased with your latest revelations, and even then they might not be much compared to what she has to deal with every day.

Again, it'll take a very long time before she'll remotely believe that your positive changes are going to stick. In that time, take every positive step you make to the extreme. If not helping was a problem, then help A LOT for a while. If being on the computer too much was a problem, then try not to use the computer AT ALL (or at least no more than a few minutes a day) for a while. If she needs alone time with you to feel loved and you weren't a great provider of that before, then spend a LOT of time with her for a while. It might be as much about reprogramming you and your habits as it is about showing her that these changes are real and long term.

The way I see things is that we men are to be leaders, the first to sacrifice and the last to leave. If we have issues, whether the ones you've described or others, we aught to commit to making those right first and foremost. I'm very sure that your wife has her own set of issues as well, which you have carefully explained, but only she can address those. If she see's you changing over time in a positive way, it's very likely that she'll feel motivated to improve herself as well, especially when you are responding to her issues appropriately. (Like ignoring or at least not rewarding bad behavior, rewarding and responding to good behavior, showing her love her way so that she might show love your way, etc.)

Again, that's just my view.


----------



## ohno

Thanks for sticking in there cdbaker  Things are getting better between her and I. She came off her period and is being pretty cool now lol. Right now it is like we are new to each other which is kind of weird. We are affectionate but not overly so. Like resetting physical boundaries. It is like being a new couple in a lot of ways. She let me in on her music world and explained what the lyrics meant. She is even managing to be supportive in her own way which is almost shocking. 

What you are saying about my behavior sounds about right. I have to keep it up and do better and better.


----------



## ohno

Ok, about changing shifts to make it easier on her: 

Last year I went from a lucrative 7pm to 9am shift, to a really crappy 7am to 3pm shift. We sold our nice house in the nice neighborhood and bought a fixerupper for cash in a crappy area, traded in my new car for a jukner we would owe no money on and made several other lifestyle adjustments in order to make the 7-3 work financially. 

About 4 months into the 7-3 she started to lose her mind. Our two oldest kids were in school so all she had to really do was watch 3 young kids for 8 hours and clock out when I got home. 

Not good enough. She still went bonkers and that is when things really started to go bad (around december of last year). I QUIT WORKING ALTOGETHER for a couple months until our savings were depleted, to help her, then had to go back to work and was lucky enough to be taken back on this night shift. 

After I quit working, things improved with her over the course of about a month. She was happy I was here. Then again, 4 or more out of 7 days she was with her mom at the casino. 

Things started to go in the toilet when I started working again. That was about a month ater I went back to work which is about one month ago. 

She just doesn't want me to work period. But she will not get a job. A few weeks before I started my job we agreed I would be the stay at home parent and she would go to work. But the time she was supposed to be looking for a job she spent with her mom. We ran out of money. I had to go back to work. 

Just saying, the schedule switching doesn't work with her. I honestly feel like she is just making a fool of me while I am doing my absolute best to hold everything together.


I am kind of old school and tere is this thing in my head that says if she put 8 hours into housework every day like I put 8 hours into my job every day, and if we split the work after I got home from my job, everything SHOULD be cool. I would be happy that I had a good nurturing wife, and she would be glad she had a good providing husband. No, ffs, life just can't be that damned simple. And not by MY choice.


----------



## cdbaker

This is all good info but I didn't see any answer to the question of whether or not you can switch shifts to better align your working/awake hours to hers? I mean, I honestly see that as a HUGE issue if switching those shifts resulted in you losing 8-10 hours per day with her. Granted, most of that was just time in bed together, but you already know that time can't be discounted.

It just seems to me that if she is going "bonkers" without you around, and fleeing to her troubled mother as often as she can to escape, then one easy answer is to find a new work schedule that will better align with hers?


----------



## ohno

I can do that, and am working on it, but I am afraid she will go bonkers again even with our schedules aligned. I'm not a quitter so I will keep trying.


----------



## ohno

Finally, SEX. She is a whole different animal now. I am also. I think a lot of my anger at her was sexual frustration. So now I am more chill. And she is way chill. Even about the schedule. Have to keep this up, make it work. The thing is, we had sex night before last and she wanted it again the following morning. And afternoon. And night again. And again this morning. I am in decent shape, but she is 9 years younger than I am. Increase cardio exercise- check. Redbull stocked in the fridge- check. Her libido is taking off like a rocket and I have to keep up!


----------

