# Lost, done everything she's asked



## Lostandhurtandconfused (Mar 2, 2016)

ill throw this question out one the ladies side: my wife said Monday that "she loves me as a best friend, and father for our four kids. But doesn't love me. She said I've been doing everything she's asked of around the house and with the kids. She said she cannot connect with me emotionally anymore.

A little bit of back ground, she has put up with me looking at porn multiple times in the past. I've stopped and have a handle on it now. In the past when I need you to step up more. I've done it, I'm 32 she's 31 I realize how childish I was in the past, with expectations of what I thought should happen. we just have each other not a lot of friends We both work full time, she works as a youth director for the church we attend. She has a lot of meetings during the evening when she gets home she's tired. With her new job she's made friends with other ladies and guys,
My question is do I give her space, take care of the kids and love them to death, take care f myself by not walking around with slumped shoulders, to show her I'm okay? 
I don't want this to be over, but I don't want to smother her either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Lostandhurtandconfused said:


> my wife said Monday that "she loves me as a best friend, and father for our four kids. But doesn't love me."





Lostandhurtandconfused said:


> She has a lot of meetings during the evening when she gets home she's tired.





Lostandhurtandconfused said:


> With her new job she's made friends with other ladies and guys


Ask her, "What's his name?"


----------



## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

This...



Lostandhurtandconfused said:


> ill throw this question out one the ladies side: my wife said Monday that "she loves me as a best friend, and father for our four kids. But doesn't love me. She said I've been doing everything she's asked of around the house and with the kids. She said she cannot connect with me emotionally anymore.


And this...



Lostandhurtandconfused said:


> she works as a youth director for the church we attend. She has a lot of meetings during the evening when she gets home she's tired. With her new job she's made friends with other ladies and guys,


I would start looking for a third person.

Your first quote is basically the stereotypical "I love you but I'm not in love with you" line. This is a common cheaters speak for "I'm interested in/seeing someone else" 

Your second quote is possibly when and where this is taking place.


----------



## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Lostandhurtandconfused said:


> ill throw this question out one the ladies side: my wife said Monday that "she loves me as a best friend, and father for our four kids. But doesn't love me. She said I've been doing everything she's asked of around the house and with the kids. She said she cannot connect with me emotionally anymore.
> 
> A little bit of back ground, she has put up with me looking at porn multiple times in the past. I've stopped and have a handle on it now. In the past when I need you to step up more. I've done it, I'm 32 she's 31 I realize how childish I was in the past, with expectations of what I thought should happen. we just have each other not a lot of friends We both work full time, she works as a youth director for the church we attend. She has a lot of meetings during the evening when she gets home she's tired. With her new job she's made friends with other ladies and guys,
> My question is do I give her space, take care of the kids and love them to death, take care f myself by not walking around with slumped shoulders, to show her I'm okay?
> ...


Don't smother her. 

Do the things you want to do. make some friends. Go out and do stuff. 

Watch what she is doing.....


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Find time to work out, get yourself in the best shape of your life.
Be happy, but also find ways to once & awhile drop by wherever she is supposed to be.
Read No More Mr. Nice Guy.
Be the best YOU that you can be.
Cleaning and being a good father just make you a beast of burden.
It seems that you can be a very good husband, and be royally taken for granted.
Did your wife date any bad boys in the past, takes someone nasty to get her excited?


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Ok, I'll also say classic case of "I'm seeingsomeonelseitis". Take two VAR's, one phone password (yeah, her phone is locked), and a half of a lawyer's phone number and call me in the morning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Lostandhurtandconfused said:


> ill throw this question out one the ladies side: my wife said Monday that "she loves me as a best friend, and father for our four kids. But doesn't love me. She said I've been doing everything she's asked of around the house and with the kids. She said she cannot connect with me emotionally anymore.
> 
> A little bit of back ground, she has put up with me looking at porn multiple times in the past. I've stopped and have a handle on it now. In the past when I need you to step up more. I've done it, I'm 32 she's 31 I realize how childish I was in the past, with expectations of what I thought should happen. we just have each other not a lot of friends We both work full time, she works as a youth director for the church we attend. She has a lot of meetings during the evening when she gets home she's tired. With her new job she's made friends with other ladies and guys,
> My question is do I give her space, take care of the kids and love them to death, take care f myself by not walking around with slumped shoulders, to show her I'm okay?
> ...


You might both benefit from watching the movie ''Fireproof.'' If you haven't seen it already, it's a good movie about some of the issues you are both struggling with, from a quasi-Christian perspective. Not the greatest acting, but a good message overall.


----------



## Redactus (Nov 22, 2015)

"I love you but I'm not in love with you" simply means that, " I used to love you but I am seeing this other guy now that is totally rocking my world. I feel that he is my soulmate and I am doing things with him in bed that you can never ever imagine me ever doing with you. I am just too chicken-s**t to break up with you or file for divorce. In fact, I will just keep you around for plan B if things don't work out....besides, you are a good father and can watch the kids whenever I go out to get my block bored out a few more thousandths...."


----------



## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Decimated said:


> Your second quote is possibly when and where this is taking place.


Yup. And I wonder what he is the minister of?


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Please remember that we have seen this scenario too many times. Totally hurting for you, but wanting you to see the truth faster, so you can stop hurting faster.
It's another man. 100%.
Textbook symptoms.
Sorry. Very sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Well tell her friends is not enough for a marriage.

Get the book "His Needs Her Needs" and read through it with her doing the questions with you.

It will be a great place to start.

If your wife is cheating, fair to good possibility, don't blame yourself.

She did it and needs to own it.

Stopping porn was good and helping out is good.

Your wife could care less about that right now. 

You don't flip her switch and someone else may be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

opuss said:


> Is that metaphorical for "playing with her clit"?


One and the same is a safe assumption.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Imovedforthis (Dec 18, 2015)

Yikes.... 
Yes it sounds like your wife is preparing you for the marriage to end. She might not be actually having an affair but I'm guessing she is having a "grass is greener" moment for sure! Being around friends, meeting new friends and now being busy in the evenings can cause this to happen. Seeing how someone else is living, wanting that as well, and then moving forward to get that. 

I haven't been here long but the posters here are really good at calling this stuff. If they think she's possibly having an affair- look into it. 

Focus on yourself and start digging! 

It doesn't matter how perfect you are, if someone else has caught her eye...


----------



## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Imovedforthis said:


> Yikes....
> Yes it sounds like your wife is preparing you for the marriage to end. She might not be actually having an affair but I'm guessing she is having a "grass is greener" moment for sure! Being around friends, meeting new friends and now being busy in the evenings can cause this to happen. Seeing how someone else is living, wanting that as well, and then moving forward to get that.
> 
> I haven't been here long but the posters here are really good at calling this stuff. If they think she's possibly having an affair- look into it.
> ...


THIS!!! 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I suugest you quietly do your own investigation as to see if being the best husband is going to help.
If you are in fact competing with a new lover the you may want to adjust your battle plan in fighting for your family.

Yes...you are in fact in a battle to save your family... so now go find out what/who the real enemy is by geting a GPS and a voice activated recorder and plant them in her car.

At the very least take a look at her cell phone, her bank statements, and her computer.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Does she hid her cell phone, leave the room to have a conversation on her phone, does she shy away from you while texting?


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I think you need to start attending her "meetings," without announcing it.


----------



## Lostandhurtandconfused (Mar 2, 2016)

Well I'm toast, she has already been to the court house and has her portion filled out. She has her phone on her 24-7 , I cant snoop because she always has it. Mostly FB messenger and I dont know her passwords. Our four kids are sharing rooms, our oldest girls got our old room. She and I are each in our rooms, I got are old bed , she went out and got a twin. Anyone have any ideas how to see whats on her phone? Curious now,


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Sorry, sounds like you need to find the 180 steps on TAM. No begging, no crying, make up your mind on what your hard limits are for her. Read up on the infidelity section regarding exposing affairs. Don't tip your hand that you really suspect an affair. Gather as much evidence as you can first.

Hopefully someone more astute will be along shortly.


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Lostandhurtandconfused said:


> Well I'm toast, she has already been to the court house and has her portion filled out. She has her phone on her 24-7 , I cant snoop because she always has it. Mostly FB messenger and I dont know her passwords. Our four kids are sharing rooms, our oldest girls got our old room. She and I are each in our rooms, I got are old bed , she went out and got a twin. Anyone have any ideas how to see whats on her phone? Curious now,


She disclosed that to you?


----------



## Lostandhurtandconfused (Mar 2, 2016)

Yes she did, got the do it yourself packet. We can't afford attorneys, I saw it today after she left to go get the bed
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Ugh... Find out who the guy is


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Lostandhurtandconfused said:


> Well I'm toast, she has already been to the court house and has her portion filled out. She has her phone on her 24-7 , I cant snoop because she always has it. Mostly FB messenger and I dont know her passwords. Our four kids are sharing rooms, our oldest girls got our old room. She and I are each in our rooms, I got are old bed , she went out and got a twin. Anyone have any ideas how to see whats on her phone? Curious now,


Yeah, I have an idea. Stop being a wuss and jerk that thing out of her hand while she's texting, change the password, and keep it until you've found out all you want to know. Is there one good reason you shouldn't do this? 
She is still your wife, and shouldn't be keeping secrets. You can bet that she will take full legal advantage of her wife status.

You have a right to know what she's doing. Before I snatched it, I'd have a VAR in my pocket and be ready for a physical altercation.... Because what's she's been doing is bad. And she doesn't want you to know about it. 
Maybe there's better ways, but this is the one I'd probably do. Be careful she doesn't whip you, and careful you don't lies your temper. This should be a cold, calculated event.

One last thing: you said she had a lot of evening meetings. Want to know who she's meeting with? Borrow a friends car and find out, or do as you've been instructed and buy a GPS, and var.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Not very good behavior for a married Christian lady, but I have seen worse. Have her read Malachi 2:16 "Indeed, the LORD God says that he *hates divorce*, along with the one who conceals his violence by outward appearances," says the LORD of the Heavenly Armies. "So guard yourselves carefully, and *don't be unfaithful*."


----------



## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Here is the 180


Liove shack 180*


THE 180's:

180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new BS begin these behaviors as soon as possible. I am convinced that if I had implemented them, I would still be married. In retrospect, I did everything besides 180. I looked pathetic. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive. (Making it)*

So here's the list:*
Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
No frequent phone calls.
Don't point out "good points" in marriage.
Don't follow her/him around the house.
Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.
Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS.
Don't ask for reassurances.
Don't buy or give gifts.
Don't schedule dates together.
Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable.
Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!
Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.
Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!
When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to!
If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.
Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them!
Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.
No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.
All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!
Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!
Don't be overly enthusiastic.
Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!
Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!
Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.
Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.
Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.
Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.
Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.
Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care!
Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.
Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!"
Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.
When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW."

Critical Readings For Separation and Divorce - LoveShack.org Community Forums


----------



## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Hi LHC, 




First understand you are going thought a personal nightmare of a Hollywood big budget disaster movie. *You cannot get a single moment to collect your thoughts, *every *time you turn around you get hit with something new. *Your emotions are running wild, a non stop roller coaster. **

Your first thought of the day must be: issues are issues - adultery is adultery. They are not the same, *getting drunk is one thing, getting in a car and driving when drunk, causing an accident that kills a family is another. *This is what your spouse has done. *The issues in your marriage have created a toxic environment that your spouse chose to react to in the worst way possible. *They have driven while DUI and killed a family. *

I have several lengthly post on each step you will need to take and prepare for. *I will post each one on a separate post, *here is a list:

Except your current marriage is over. *Currently you are in a panic mode to put back together what is lost, *it is lost period. *You will want to reconcile above all else. *You will Cling to this idea and beg, plead, promise to change but twill not work at this time, **

Develop a plan A: *how to divorce and the post divorce life you want, *
Develop a plan B for if and when she suggest a divorce, *

Plan A*

Read "welcome newbies, *it will give you abv and detonations. *WW, BS, 180, the FOG are many the concepts you need to know.*

Read, follow and become the 180, *as @Satya suggest at all times be polite, diplomatic, and somewhat stoic when dealing with your WW. *Be gentle, reassuring, and loving with your children,*


Find out what is going on is your spouse a walk away, in an EA, or a PA. *Review red flags, if your spouse will not give you access to their phone get the bill. *Review numbers called and how often. *Look onto getting a Var. Read @weightlifter "standard of evidence post" *

Read and follow espousal 101.. *If your spouse is on an EA or PA any child over the age of four must be made aware of this fact. *Provide just the facts and only the facts without value judgements, *you do not need to say more then: every marriage has issues and conflicts that if not resolved creates a toxic environment. *Among the issues in my marriage I did look at porn off and on. *I am sorry for this. *I hurt your mother but I have stopped and worked hard to build a better marriage. *Your mother has reacted ton this though by entering into an inappropriate relationship with another man wants to divorce to be with him. DO NOT TELL HER YOU ARE EXPOSING. *SHE WILL USE THE TIME TO DESTROY YOU: *REMEMBER THE FOG

Be aware her first reaction will be DAVO

Follow *@Marduk and @MEM111361 post on Strategy.*

In suggest you print out each post and keep it with you for review.

Be well*


----------



## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Exposure *101

Exposure 101*

Exposure is simply your most powerful weapon against an affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposure can be ruinous. Exposure is no guarantee, but it is your best bet at killing the affair and making it possible to save your marriage. YES, we know your spouse will be furious, but the goal is to save your marriage, not to avoid your wayward spouse's anger at all cost. Your marriage can survive his/her temporary anger; it cannot survive an ongoing affair. Read up on why exposure is so effective: When Should an Affair Be Exposed?*

Originally Posted By: Dr. Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
"Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."


Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
"The reason for the wide exposure is not to hurt the unfaithful spouse, but rather to end the fantasy. Your husband's secret second life made his affair possible, and the more you can to to make it public, the easier it is for him to see the damage he's doing. Keeping it secret does damage, but few know about it. Making it public helps everyone, including the unfaithful spouse and lover, see the affair for what it really is."


Dr Harley tells a betrayed husband he is an "enabler" for not exposing his wife's affair: radio clip*

Dr Harley tells BTinTrouble to "expose the heck out of his wife's affair" [exposure saved their marriage, btw] radio clip here*

Exposure targets
Parents of all concerned, family, close friends, children of the BS, workplace [if a workplace affair], spouse of the affair partner, pastor. Facebook friends of affair partner.*

Exposure Timing
Exposure should be done immediately. The longer you wait, the more entrenched the affair becomes. There is never any “perfect” time to expose, so don’t delay while looking for an imaginary perfect time.*

Expose on the SAME DAY – or as close as possible – in order to achieve a tsunami effect. The affairees should be completely taken by surprise. Doing this creates a powerful hit on the affair and prevents the affairees from pre-empting you

Exposure Tactics

Spouse of affair partner- Give your full name, phone # and email address. Tell the other BS all about the affair, offer to share all evidence with him/her. Offer to follow up to ensure that contact is truly ended and ask the other BS to do the same. The other BS will be shocked when you tell him, so be sure and give your email address and phone # for follow up questions. ALWAYS GIVE THE OTHER BS YOUR WS'S PHONE # IN CASE HE/SHE WANTS TO CALL.*

Parents, close family, friends – Tell them about the affair, giving them names, general timelines, etc. Explain you are attempting to save your marriage and would be willing to forgive your WS if he/she ended the affair. Ask them to use their influence to persuade the WS to end her affair. A way to save time is to call both sets of parents and send an email to the other close family and friends. Template letter posted below

Parents of affair partner. Give your full name and explain why you are calling. Ask them to use their influence with their son/daughter to persuade them to leave your spouse alone. It might also help if the PARENT of the WS calls them too.*

Workplace exposure: Expose to Director of Human Resources, a key VP and both of the affairee’s supervisors using the template letter posted below.

Facebook exposure: Should be done to the affair partner’s facebook friends via private message. This is a very, very effective exposure because it is a collection of the AP’s closest friends and family. SPACE THE PM’S OUT 60 SECONDS APART SO FB DOES NOT SHUT YOU DOWN FOR FLOODING. Before you begin, copy and paste all the contacts into a WORD doc. Change your fb picture to a picture of you and your spouse and children. Template letters posted below.


Send the Evidence! Provide the evidence via email to your exposure targets. One ideal way to do this is to start up a website, upload your evidence and send out the link to everyone. This prevents the WS from denying there is an affair.

The Fallout
Expect your spouse to be FURIOUS and to make all manner of threats, “I was going to work on the marriage, now I am not!!” “I cannot trust you” “You have to pack and leave!!” “You have ruined any chance you had!!” Do not let this bother you!! Just imagine that you have taken the crackpipe away from the crack head. Of course they are angry. But it will blow over. Don’t laugh, don’t fight, don't attempt to reason with them, and most of all, don’t be SCARED! Your marriage can survive some temporary anger, it cannot survive an ongoing affair! The madder your WS, the harder you hit the target!*

The goal is to save your marriage, NOT to avoid your wayward spouse's anger at all costs.

Just say, "I am so sorry you are upset.. Can I get you a potato chip?" *

Common Exposure Mistakes

Telling the WS that you got the idea to expose on the internet rather than taking ownership of your actions. Then the discussion becomes “who???” When the WS is told it was Marriage Builders, the WS is forever jaundiced against Marriage Builders, which harms future recovery chances. You need to OWN IT. Saying somebody told you to do it does not work for 5 year olds and it won’t work for you!

Keeping exposure a secret. Yes, you read right. But we have had exposure targets say “ok, I will keep this a secret!!” And they never tell the WS they know. That defeats the entire purpose. If that person won’t help you by speaking to your WS, at least TELL the WS that person knows.*

Doing trickle exposures. Meaning exposing to just a few people but not to everyone that could have an influence. Trickle exposures are a disaster because they are not enough to kill the affair but just enough to infuriate the WS enough to come after the BS. So the exposure essentially only served to beat down the already beaten BS for no benefit.

Eliminating exposure targets because that person “has no influence over my WS” even though this is a person with long history over the WS. Such as a mother or father. Such targets cannot be dismissed on such a subjective basis because the BS CANNOT PREDICT WHO WILL OR WON’T HAVE AN INFLUENCE OVER THE WS. Sorry, but unless you are psychic and your name is Madame Cleo, you don’t know. Many WS are estranged from a parent, sibling, pastor but that is not a knock out factor.*

Threatening to expose. Using exposure as a threat only serves to forewarn the affairees and cause them to go further underground. All you have achieved is to give the enemy your battle plan so they can come back and kick your rear tomorrow. It also gives them an opportunity to pre-empt you and tell others you are “crazy” “jealous”. Then then when you do expose no one will take you seriously. Threatening to expose is the equivalent of giving your battle plan to the enemy. Don't do that!

Deleting or throwing away evidence after the affair is killed. DO NOT DO THIS! You will need this in case the affair starts up again or if you get divorced. Yes, we know you don't want to be triggered. Fine. Then bag up the evidence and put it somewhere for safekeeping. Do not throw it away!

Here is the link*Exposure 101 - Your Most Powerful Weapon - Marriage Builders® Forums


----------



## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Red flags*

Sex life dropped off noticeably
Passwords on phone and computer
Much more time on line...fakebook.
More GNOs...staying out later.
Less eye contact and holding hands...much less physical contact.
Less communication.
Staying up late on computer.
Dressing more provocative
More shopping-spending...clothes.
3 hour groceries shopping trips
Gasoline use and mileage went up
Generally disconnected from family.
New friends that I wasn't introduced to
Cell/text usage went up...way up.
New hair style and attention to makeup
Started exercising more.
Secretive about whereabouts during contact
She would become annoyed easily with me.
Household responsibilities dropped way off.
ecame more forgetful in general
A noticable distancing from her family.
Much more waxing...trimming...shaving....not for me.


----------



## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Davo

What is DARVO?

Jennifer J. Freyd, University of Oregon

Short Definition

DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim -- or the whistle blower -- into an alleged offender. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of "falsely accused" and attacks the accuser's credibility or even blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of a false accusation.


Disclaimers

DARVO as a concept is based on observation and analysis. The author has not yet published systematic empirical research testing the coherence or frequency of DARVO. However, the first empirical research specifically testing the concept of DARVO is completed and the manuscript report is in preparation (Harsey, Zurbriggen, & Freyd, in prep).
Other observers have likely noted the same phenomena and related phenomena using different terms; the author has been informed that some people have found the term DARVO a helpful mnemonic and organizing concept.
Also the presense of DARVO is not necessarily evidence in support of the accusation of guilt; a truly innocent person may deny an accusation, attack the person making the accusation, or claim the victim role. Future research may be able to determine the probability of a DARVO response as a function of guilt or innocence. The author hypothesized that some sorts of denials and reactions such as DARVO are more likely when the perpetrator is guilty than innocent (Freyd, 1997); however this hypothesis has not yet been tested. Furthermore, even if research indicates that a DARVO reaction is more likely when there is actual guilt, it would be an error to use a DARVO reaction as proof of guilt.
For now the concept of DARVO is offered as potentially memorable and useful term for anticipating the behavior of perpetrators when held accountable, and for making sense of responses that may otherwise be confusing (particularly when victim and offender get reversed).*
History of Terminology & Writings about DARVO

Jennifer Freyd introduced the term "DARVO" near the end of a 1997 publication about her primary research focus, "betrayal trauma theory." (For more on betrayal trauma theory, see Definition of Betrayal Trauma Theory.)

The reference for the 1997 article introducing the term is:

Freyd, J.J. (1997) Violations of power, adaptive blindness, and betrayal trauma theory. Feminism & Psychology, 7, 22-32.

In that paper Freyd explained that DARVO responses may be effective for perpetrators. "...I have observed that actual abusers threaten, bully and make a nightmare for anyone who holds them accountable or asks them to change their abusive behavior. This attack, intended to chill and terrify, typically includes threats of law suits, overt and covert attacks on the whistle-blower's credicility, and so on..... [T]he offender rapidly creates the impression that the abuser is the wronged one, while the victim or concerned observer is the offender. Figure and ground are completely reversed... The offender is on the offense and the person attempting to hold the offender accountable is put on the defense." (Freyd, 1997, p 29-30)

"By denying, attacking and reversing perpetrators into victims, reality gets even more confusing and unspeakable for the real victim. .... These perpetrator reactions increase the need for betrayal blindness. If the victim does speak out and gets this level of attack, she quickly gets the idea that silence is safer." (Veldhuis & Freyd, 1999. p 274).

It didn't happen (an instance) or It rarely happens (a type of event)
It wasn't harmful
Put together they can take the form: "It didn't happen, but if it did, it wasn't that bad" or "It rarely happens, but when it does it isn't harmful." The two claims both serve to deny, but they depend upon different sorts of evidence. They may both be true, but they are sometimes somewhat suspicious when claimed simultaneously (or by the same person at different times), as for instance can occur in response to allegations of rape or child sexual abuse.

Here is the link*What is DARVO?


----------



## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

A strategy*

Author: @MEM11363
Editor: @marduk 

If you are reading this it's because the most important person in the world - betrayed you. Sorry you're here. The good news is that you are the product of thousands of generations of clever, resourceful, tough ancestors who navigated flood, famine and ice age and consequently much stronger than you realize. You might love and want your partner, but you don't need them. Accept that and allow it to inform your actions to maximize your outcome. Conversely, choose to believe and act as if you need your spouse, and bring your worst fears to fruition. Love is your friend, need and neediness are your enemy.*

From the point of discovery forward you ought to focus on regaining your emotional equilibrium. It's hard to do because you naturally feel disoriented. Your primary human anchor just pulled up. Pick a trusted friend with a balanced view of your marriage and talk to them. Exercise is critical. Sleep may be tough. Catch up on weekends if possible. Try to prioritize this stuff until you've gotten through the worst of the disorientation. Avoid alcohol, drugs and opposite sex entanglements.

With that as prelude, the guidelines below are intended to help you navigate the Rapids:
- Assess the overall marriage
- Confirm that your spouse feels the same way
- Execute either an ALL IN reconciliation or the cleanest possible extraction from the marriage

I'm going to write this gender neutral - with one exception. Physical intimidation is not only maritally toxic - it may come back to bite you hard in family court. Pretend your spouse is recording, nay videotaping every conversation.*

Assessment: The goal is to search your soul and/or your gut to decide whether you think the marriage worth saving. Might help you to ask yourself some tough questions. Thing is, most folks feel some amount of love when they marry. And love is a beautiful thing. But for the long game, and marriage is the ultimate long game - compatibility rules. Love sans compatibility is the worst pairing of all. Virtually guarantees unhappiness. No oath, no vow will stop an unhappy person from cheating - either via a continuation of the affair or a brand new one. So roll back to just before you 'think' the affair started and answer the following queries.*

1. From that vantage if you could choose all over again, would you marry this person?*
2. How would your partner answer that question had they been asked it pre-affair?
3. Do/did you love each other?
4. Are you compatible?*
5. How much did my spouse accept and/or seek my company?
6. My non sexual touch
7. Sex*
8. Overall did they do a good job of making me feel loved/important?
9. Did I do a good job of making them feel loved/important?
10. Was your partner overall trustworthy, reliable and focused on you? 11. Or did they have a wandering eye, a flirtatious posture towards others.*
12. Did they let you marry them, or want to marry you?*
13. Do they feel sick about betraying you?
14. Or only sick they have been caught?
15. Or only sick at the prospect of being exposed to friends/family?
16. Or only sick at the thought of having to end the affair?*
17. Have they cheated on prior partners?*

After answering those questions you ought to have a good feel about recon or divorce.*

If you want to reconcile, it is time to discover what your partner wants.*
1. Do they want to stay married/try and reconcile?
2. Why did they cheat?*
3. What are they willing to DO to rebuild trust and heal?
4. Write a no contact letter?
5. Make a no contact call in your presence?
6. End the affair without one last get together for closure?
7. Provide transparency via phones and passwords etc?
8. Resume (if the affair interrupted it) a normal sex life with you?
9. Provide you with whatever details you want including a timeline of the affair?
10. Transfer departments or change employers entirely if their AP is from work?*
11. Take a test for STDs
12. Take a pregnancy test

Regarding (2), listen carefully. Might learn stuff ends up improving your marriage. The responses to (2) range from: we had a good marriage and I behaved selfishly and that is entirely on me. To you are the worst spouse since Henry the eighth and that is the ONLY reason I cheated. What they say might however, have real merit. For instance: you stopped sleeping with me years ago, or you consistently rejected my requests to spend time together. If you were the primary cause of a weak marriage, you need to decide if you can fix it. And you should acknowledge that and commit to fixing it.*

Confirmation: This phase is mostly about observable behavior. Words and in this case vows - are cheap. Actions WILL confirm or contradict your assessment. Is their primary emotion remorse or resentment. The stuff they committed to doing up above - are they doing it without pressure. Or is it you dragging them along. Considerate and kind about your heightened anxiety level? Or accusing you of being controlling?*

Execution: If you've both decided to try to recon, it's critical to accept the following:*
1. The more needy you seem, the less lovable you will be. This is every bit as unfair as it is true.*
2. People use the following phrase all the time: I was crying and begging them to stay
3. Crying is ok. It's about the loss of something you prized. It shows love.
4. Begging may be the single most toxic thing a betrayed spouse typically does. Crying means: You love them and are sad at the thought of losing them. Begging means you don't love yourself very much.*
5. If their affair partner is married or living with someone, you ought to contact that person and let them know what's been happening. There are several benefits to that, the best one is this. If your spouse has truly committed to NC, won't be a big deal. If they are still prioritizing their AP, you will get an angry reaction.*
6. If their AP is a coworker they frequently interact with, that's an inherently difficult situation. The focus should be on their prioritizing a transfer/company change.
7. Your perception of time is now different. Before Dday - you likely weren't nearly as impacted if they were running a bit late and didn't call. When it happens after Dday, you feel a lot more anxious. Thing is, if you call or text them every time they are officially one minute late, they will love you less. Doesn't mean you ought to be a doormat. If they are routinely way late without a call - that is a very bad sign. At minimum it means they are comfortable knowingly causing you intense distress.
8. Sex is a great litmus test for whether the recon is genuine. A WS who, upon discovery abandons, or continues to abandon the marital bed, is likely insincere.
9. Some folks advocate a zero tolerance shock and awe approach to demanding they stop the affair. This is a: choose right now one way or the other approach.*
10. Others are willing to compete with the AP over a period of time when faced with a WS who openly refuses to stop the affair. This is more likely a good strategy if you believe your pre-affair conduct was a significant contributor to the affair and want your spouse to see the 'new and improved' you before insisting they choose. And in some cases, this approach results in their choosing to end it of their own free will. Most folks find this competition period intensely stressful. If your partner is either selfish or has weak character, they will string this out as long as you allow. And will constantly move the goal posts for what you must do to win them back. This path MUST have a bright line end date.*
11. There are many paths to successful recon. However, a partner who continues a sexual relationship with their AP, while refusing to sleep with you, rarely reconciles. They tend to totally lose respect for you for tolerating it.*
12. Last but not least. You may be tempted to employ some extreme tactics in an effort to recon. These include your use of third parties either to advise of shame your partner. See examples below.*

Option 1: Attempting to cripple your partner so they CAN'T leave. If you go this route, eventually everyone you know will know that - you've turned into a psychopath - including your children and the family court judge. Good luck with that.*

BS: I just called the last of our friends and family and sent an email out to them as well. I told them what you did to me and the children. And asked them to contact you and tell you how wrong it is to destroy our family for a few cheap fvcks. I also contacted your employer and made a big fuss. I think they're going to fire you. And when I spoke to your AP's spouse, they told me they are going to try and work it out with your AP. And I also called the minister at our church. So go ahead and divorce me. Just know that you have no friends, your family is on my side, you will shortly be unemployed, you are unwelcome at our church and your AP is likely going to dump you. One last thing, I told the kids too. They were spitting mad.

Option 2: AKA - the voice of reason approach
BS: Picks one person who knows and loves their WS. Swears that person to secrecy and asks them to reach out to the WS and try and support them through the fog. The message to the friend is short and practical. I believe we had a good marriage and can recover. WS is lost in the fog. If you believe WS will end up regretting a divorce, maybe you can support me in helping them navigate out of the fog.*

Obviously there are many points on the spectrum between option 1 and option 2. A small modification to option 2 is to disclose to the partner of your spouse's AP. That person is in the same boat you are. That's actually a very effective step.

Here is the link*http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/315681-cwi-strategy.html


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Do you have any friends you trust?

Have some discreet snooping take place when she is out and about.

In the meantime. Man up and take charge of your life.

You aren't that bad. Stop letting her beat you like a whipped puppy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I realize this is info overload at this time. Print each of these post out review them and keep them handy when posting and use them to build a narrative of what is going on. Many of the questions and comments going forward you will notice fit into a pattern. If you know the pattern you can either protect yourself and/or control the outcome. 

Understand advice is only as good as the info provided. Can you provide some additional info. 

What state do you live in. Many posters live in your state and can share their experience and other posts can provide links like this one for insight Pennsylvania Child Custody Factors - Pennsylvania Men's Divorce LawsPennsylvania Men's Divorce Information. What are the gender of your children and age range. 

How long have the two of you been together and known each other? 

What is the relationship history of the two of you, both your parents and any siblings, 

What branch of christainty do the two of you follow: Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic ?


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

And remember this - IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT!!! Remind yourself that you did what you could to be a good husband. She CHOOSE to make herself available to someone else.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Lostandhurtandconfused said:


> She has her phone on her 24-7 , I cant snoop because she always has it. Mostly FB messenger and I dont know her passwords.


Yeah, she's a cheat. No doubt in my mind.



Lostandhurtandconfused said:


> Well I'm toast


She may have won that battle but you can still win the war.

Do the 180, diet, hit the gym, don't leave the house, settle for no less than half of everything including custody, don't beg, plead or whine, don't speak to her unless it's about the children, NEVER let her see you sad or upset, and push hard to expedite for the divorce. When she hands you those divorce papers pretend like she just handed you a winning lottery ticket. Eventually, you'll realize she has.


----------



## Lostandhurtandconfused (Mar 2, 2016)

Anybody have a modern-bliss account?


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Never heard of it before you asked. Looks like a parenting forum.


----------



## the wife1962 (Mar 9, 2016)

I wish I had an inkling of half of the posted information accessible to me last year. All I had was my intuition that something was very wrong, and going on in our marriage. I thought I had it somewhat addressed, by making myself known and shown to the AP. But it wasn't enough. The AP was on her own agenda, which was to milk my husband out of any amount she could, for as long as she could. He knows that now. I didn't know that then, but things and the future will be handled oh so differently from here on in.


----------



## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Do you have access to the phone records? See if a number you don't know shows up frequently.

Read the 180 list someone posted. Live it. Do not show any vulnerability to her anymore.

ZERO relationship discussions. For any chance of saving this, you must be unafraid to lose it.


----------



## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

lostandhurtandconfused,

Don't be surprised if you find out that your Ws affair partner is someone at church, there often are hangers on in those organizations just looking for an opening or a vulnerable member.

In every church my W and I have gone to she has been approached by people on the make.

When my W first started going to church by herself back in 2006 or so, she quickly got sucked into a self-contained social sphere which absorbed a great deal of her time and almost 100% of her emotion. At the time I felt OK as I believed most people at church had better intentions consistent with their beliefs. 

While I don't believe she had a full physical affair, although she did hint at kissing, the emotional ties she had with these people felt in total like an emotional affair. I also believe it is what lead her to become involved with OM-3 during this time period. 

Tamat


----------



## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

LHC,
What's the latest? Any new updates or revelations? Please don't tell us the OM is the pastor!


----------



## Lostandhurtandconfused (Mar 2, 2016)

Quick update, this week I went to the courthouse to see if she has filed, she has not. We talked Tuesday upstairs while I was getting the kids ready for bed. She asked what was going on, is this an act with the kids, being involved and helping? I said no its for real, she said you can't break the kids hearts again. What does that mean? is she wait to see what happens? Thursday we watched some tv and talked while I folded some laundry, then she feel asleep next to me on the love seat. I gently rubbed her arm to wake her up. She said goodnight and went to bed.

Friday she had a date with a girlfriend at the beach, afterword she said she was meeting a friend for dinner. I said okay have fun, I checked out her work calendar and saw she was having dinner with Josh. I goggled him, he is recently divorced pastor with two kids. At a church eighty miles away.

I put in a common password she uses for everything on her facebook messenger, and it worked I couldn't believe it. I also saw she now has the small talk with this Josh dude, who has a blog, podcast and anything else. The night we watched tv. He asked what she was doing, she said folding the laundry and watch tv, When Im the one folding and watching with her.
Earlier in the week he asked and she said having a IPA and relaxing, we haven't had IPA in the fridge for weeks. That's what I drink, she also told him that she has filed for divorce. Which she hasn't yet.

I don't get the fibs she is telling him? 

She has also told her girlfriends on the messenger that she has filed too.

This afternoon we had the same conversation about me being involved with the kid's and engaged. She asked how do I know it's not going to end after a week or two like every other time. I said its not you just have to believe, she said she cant believe right now after all these years, and started crying. if she wants this so bad why does she keep asking.

In the meantime I ran 15 miles last week, up to 18 this week and started lifting weights I feel great too


----------



## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Lostandhurtandconfused said:


> Quick update, this week I went to the courthouse to see if she has filed, she has not. We talked Tuesday upstairs while I was getting the kids ready for bed. She asked what was going on, is this an act with the kids, being involved and helping? I said no its for real, she said you can't break the kids hearts again. What does that mean? is she wait to see what happens? Thursday we watched some tv and talked while I folded some laundry, then she feel asleep next to me on the love seat. I gently rubbed her arm to wake her up. She said goodnight and went to bed.
> 
> Friday she had a date with a girlfriend at the beach, afterword she said she was meeting a friend for dinner. I said okay have fun, I checked out her work calendar and saw she was having dinner with Josh. I goggled him, he is recently divorced pastor with two kids. At a church eighty miles away.
> 
> ...


I knew it was the Pastor!


----------



## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

Lostandhurtandconfused said:


> I put in a common password she uses for everything on her facebook messenger, and it worked I couldn't believe it. I also saw she now has the small talk with this Josh dude, who has a blog, podcast and anything else. The night we watched tv. He asked what she was doing, she said folding the laundry and watch tv, When Im the one folding and watching with her.
> Earlier in the week he asked and she said having a IPA and relaxing, we haven't had IPA in the fridge for weeks. That's what I drink, she also told him that she has filed for divorce. Which she hasn't yet.
> 
> I don't get the fibs she is telling him?
> ...


B!tches be crazy, yo! I don't why she's lying to him but she's also lying to you so her reasoning doesn't really matter. The crying could be due to feeling guilty but still 'wanting what the hearts wants' sort of thing.


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Lostandhurtandconfused said:


> Quick update, this week I went to the courthouse to see if she has filed, she has not. We talked Tuesday upstairs while I was getting the kids ready for bed. She asked what was going on, is this an act with the kids, being involved and helping? I said no its for real, she said you can't break the kids hearts again. What does that mean? is she wait to see what happens? Thursday we watched some tv and talked while I folded some laundry, then she feel asleep next to me on the love seat. I gently rubbed her arm to wake her up. She said goodnight and went to bed.
> 
> Friday she had a date with a girlfriend at the beach, afterword she said she was meeting a friend for dinner. I said okay have fun, I checked out her work calendar and saw she was having dinner with Josh. I goggled him, he is recently divorced pastor with two kids. At a church eighty miles away.
> 
> ...


Translation: Why did you have to start doing this now that its too late.

She's done.

Expose the pastor.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Old josh is the one on her mind romantically. 
He's this kind, thoughtful gentleman that spends time with his kids and thinks of others. He's everything you aren't. (In her mind only)
She's telling him she's divorced in case he might actually have scruples.

I wish she was a loyal wife and could see reason. She doesn't. She only wants josh, who is on her mind 24/7.
You are on her mind, too. As far as how is she going to ditch you and still have income from you and have her kids full time. As soon as she works out an escape plan, she's gone. 

I know this sounds awful, but it's the truth. You'll get the " I need some space so I can figure out what I really want soon". What that really means is--- josh needs to see me living elsewhere so I can continue my divorced wife charade until I can actually be divorced. 

I would talk go a lawyer and keep looking without letting her know you know her password a short time.
Then I would make a personal visit to see josh in the middle of church and expose him in front of his entire congregation for what he is.

I would file for divorce and detach. Showing your wife you are a man that can live without her will possibly change her perspective of you. But I'd ditch her. She's not going to change. It's over, and that's the truth. She will screw with your head for a while giving you little morsels of hope, which will just hurt you for a long time.
I hate to say it, but she has checked out a long time ago, and you're getting hit suddenly.
That's why it's everything to you--- and your marriage is nothing to her. Think about it-- she's already telling everyone she's filed for divorce. She pretty much has to now to save face.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Exposure. That guy is a disgrace.you need to man up and print copies of all correspondence between them, 180 like hell. She is in Lala land right now. Been in your shoes. It ain't fun. Tell his deacons his family her family your family. She will be pissed but tough. Do not take any more **** from her tell her to give you those damn papers and tell her your done. Stand back and watch her scramble. Sunlight is a wonderful disinfectant


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Lostandhurtandconfused said:


> Thursday we watched some tv and talked while I folded some laundry, then she feel asleep next to me on the love seat.





Lostandhurtandconfused said:


> The night we watched tv. He asked what she was doing, she said folding the laundry and watch tv, When Im the one folding and watching with her.


1) I don't enjoy being right about these things but I just KNEW your wife had the stench cheat on her. She's in an emotional affair at best.

2) She has some NERVE lecturing you about religious differences when she'd be consider a sinner in virtually all of them. She's a shameless liar and a cheat.

3) This quote is cringe worthy. You've got to STOP doing the fvcking choirs man. You're her fvcking b!tch maid and she has NO respect for you. Do your own damn laundry and that's it!


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

DO NOT let on the password thing until you find how deep this is. Keep your mouth shut and eyes open.

SAVE EVERYTHING on two thumb drives and two clouds. Put one thumb drive in possession of someone of unquestioned loyalty.


----------

