# Trying to save what's left



## Foreversorry

I want to preface this by saying that I am the WS. My husband has been here since DDay and I have lurked just about as long, only joining a few days ago, tryin to get up the courage to post hoping for some advice/help of my own. This site has been a huge help to him... 

I have had 6 online EAs involving txts as well as pics, and 1 EA/PA in a span of 2 years before DDay. After DDay, I had made promises that I would do ANYTHING to make us 'work' if he would just give me that chance. He did give me that chance. Several times. And each time, I broke promises, and TT'ed him to death. Ive put him through hell. By the time I was done TTing, Ive put everything out there, and kept promises, he gave me one last shot. But in this last chance, he is very uncertain, and rightfully so. Not only was I lying to him during the cheating, but EVERY oppertunity he gave me to come clean, I threw away. I do not blame him for feeling the way that he does. I am EXTREMELY thankful that he is giving me this day by day. To make matters worse, the OM finally contacted him to confirm what I have told him to be the truth, only his 'version' is slightly off than mine, and honestly not true. Unfortunetly, with all my previous lies and TT, BS has a hard time believeing still that I AM being truthful. And again, I truely understand that. 

I don't know what else I can do to prove myself that there is nothing more that I am trying to hide, that there isnt any little tidbit that he isnt aware of, that I am honestly commited to doing everything I can to show him that I have changed, will continue to change, and that I will do whatever I need to do to prevent this from ever happening again. That he, our marriage, and our family is what I am commited to fixing, because I know it can be done. 

I know this is a very VERY condensed version of whats happened. I will answer any questions the best I can.


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## Hope1964

Who is your husband on here?


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## talin

Why do you think that this time you really mean it when you say you're done having affairs?

What's different?


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## Foreversorry

Hope, my husband is Awake1.

Talin, whats different is I see what I have to lose. A husband who did everything in his power to make sure I had the best life we could have. I took him and everything about him for granted. I was selfish and thought I needed 'validation' when all along, I had it right in front of me. I thought I needed to be told I was 'pretty' that I was still 'wanted' and all that bull. What I now know is it doesnt matter what anyone else thinks of me. What matters is what *I* think of myself and what matters is that I need to make my BS feel wanted and loved. Something I didnt do for years.


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## awake1




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## Hope1964

Volunteer to take a polygraph then do it.

Get into IC and figure out why you did these things and come up with a plan to never do them again and share this with him. Then get both of you into MC.

Open your life up completely. No password on phone. He has total access to all emails, bank accounts, credit cards etc. Put a keylogger on your computer and email him the info. GPS when you aren't home. He knows where you are every minute of ever day, who you're with, what you're doing. Everything. This stops when HE says it does. Or never. It's up to him.

Give him 2-5 years to get over it.

Read the 'understanding' link in my signature.

Keep posting here, and reading. Especially posts from truly remorseful waywards.


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## Foreversorry

He has all my passwords, I have a forwarding app on my phone that sends him every txt I send/recieve as well as incoming/outgoing phone calls. It also has a GPS on it as well. As soon as I am back to work, I am putting money aside in order to do a poly. 
He gets triggers quite a bit, most of the time, he doesnt tell me when he gets them (I believe cause they are so often) but when he does, Im not sure how to respond. IS a repeated "im so sorry I caused this" truely enough at that moment?


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## Foreversorry

Also Hope, yes, I have read the 'understanding' link. Several times in the past 6 months. And he has also described it to me that way. I understand the pain I have caused him, but I also know that I will never truely KNOW the pain I caused him.


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## warlock07

awake1 said:


>



You had no idea ?


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## Hope1964

Well, I have probably needed to hear at least a thousand "I'm sorry"'s over the last 3 plus years. I still need them once in a while.

When I trigger, often I don't even tell him. When I do, I just want him to know. Hearing I'm sorry - just that, no embellishments - always helps. Sometimes I get mad that something has been taken away from me and I need him to know why I'm mad. He has to be gentle and remorseful and never ever ever get mad at me when I bring this stuff up, and mostly just LISTEN to me.

He finally wrote me an apology letter that I still have so that I could read it whenever I needed to.


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## awake1

warlock07 said:


> You had no idea ?


It was a little surprising to see this thread. I'm at work and she mentioned it some time ago but I'd forgotten honestly! (I thought it was a passing comment that wasn't serious.)


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## LostViking

Foreversorry said:


> Also Hope, yes, I have read the 'understanding' link. Several times in the past 6 months. And he has also described it to me that way. I understand the pain I have caused him, but I also know that I will never truely KNOW the pain I caused him.


Well then if you have been lurking and reading his posts, you know how close he is to walking away from you.

And no one here would blame him. 

You see, you killed your marriage, and now that Awake1 has had time to clear his head, absorb the pain, and step back and look at your affairs objectively, he seees with eyes unclouded by desperation and fear. And what he sees is ugly. 

He's disgusted with you. Sorry, but you are not the beautiful, enchanting bride he married all those years ago. You killed that image forever.

It is up to him now to decide what happens with the marriage.


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## Foreversorry

I have also written him an appology letter, and he does hear the "Im sorry's" a bit. I just sometimes worry that he'll 'tire' of hearing it, even though he has said I cant say it enough.


Yes, we have talked in passing about my coming here, and at the same time, one of my mistakes in all this post DDAY was that I thought I could do all this on my OWN. I didn't talk to, or ask anyone for advice. I should have asked for advice from someone..ANYONE..


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## LostViking

Just a warning Foreversorry, prepare for the 10th degree here. 

You are going to be the brunt of some pretty harsh criticism and even downright abuse. Not from me, but there are some angry people here who love to stomp a new wayward. 

Maybe this will be the trial by fire you can go through to show Awake1 you are serious about reconciling.


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## Foreversorry

He has EVERY reason in the WORLD to walk away from me, I do know that. And yes, it is solely his decision, I am fully aware of that. I know that even one, small tiny foul word/look, ANYTHING and he can walk. I also know that I could do EVERYTHING in my power, everything that he asks of me, I could become the PERFECT wife, and he could STILL leave. And yes, not ONE person would blame him. 
I killed my old marriage. There is no getting that back. But we can build a new and better marriage. I know he will never look at me the same way again, and I dont want him to. I was NOT a good person. I was a terrible wife, and a terrible mother. I am making improvments in myself. Not just for him, but for ME. I don't like that person I was. My kids need a good mother, and my husband needs a good wife. I WILL be that person.


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## Foreversorry

LostViking said:


> Just a warning Foreversorry, prepare for the 10th degree here.
> 
> You are going to be the brunt of some pretty harsh criticism and even downright abuse. Not from me, but there are some angry people here who love to stomp a new wayward.
> 
> Maybe this will be the trial by fire you can go through to show Awake1 you are serious about reconciling.



I am aware of that, and if thats what I need to go through as another way to showing him that, then I will. In the 6 months since DDay, I have gotten a few..verbal beatings..from Awake. And I have also told him that I know I fully deserve everything I hear.


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## LostViking

Foreversorry said:


> He has EVERY reason in the WORLD to walk away from me, I do know that. And yes, it is solely his decision, I am fully aware of that. I know that even one, small tiny foul word/look, ANYTHING and he can walk. I also know that I could do EVERYTHING in my power, everything that he asks of me, I could become the PERFECT wife, and he could STILL leave. And yes, not ONE person would blame him.
> I killed my old marriage. There is no getting that back. But we can build a new and better marriage. I know he will never look at me the same way again, and I dont want him to. I was NOT a good person. I was a terrible wife, and a terrible mother. I am making improvments in myself. Not just for him, but for ME. I don't like that person I was. My kids need a good mother, and my husband needs a good wife. I WILL be that person.


Admitting these things is the first step towards changing your life. But you have to follow through. 

Actions....not words...are what Awake1 wants to see. The occasional hearfelt "I'm Sorry" is good, and you need to do that, but you need to proactively make changes in your life that he can see. Don't wait around for him to tell you what he wants you to do. You know your issues and you need to take the bull by the horns and deal with them, work on them and make a concerted effort to build the boundaries that will protect you from cheating again. 

As for the mindmovies and emotional turmoil he is going through? All you can do is be there for him: emotionally, intellectualy and sexually... of course.


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## Foreversorry

I have made some changes already. Changes that he has said he has noticed. But he is also leary on that because in the past (non-cheating related) things that I tried improving on slowly went back to the way they were. I need to show him this time that that isnt going to happen. NOTHING is going to go back to the way it was. All I can hope for is that he sticks around to see that.


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## LostViking

And even if he decided not to go on with the marriage, your work on yourself will make you a better mother and co-parent. The main thing is, you need to watch yourself to make sure you are not falling back into your old entitlement mindset.


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## Thound

Foreversorry said:


> I have also written him an appology letter, and he does hear the "Im sorry's" a bit. I just sometimes worry that he'll 'tire' of hearing it, even though he has said I cant say it enough.
> 
> 
> Yes, we have talked in passing about my coming here, and at the same time, one of my mistakes in all this post DDAY was that I thought I could do all this on my OWN. I didn't talk to, or ask anyone for advice. I should have asked for advice from someone..ANYONE..


Talk is cheap action is POWERFUL! I hope things work out for the both of you.


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## Foreversorry

I try and look at that everyday. To see if I feel like Im going to fall back into old habits. Even small things, like the way I phrase or word something. My being a better person/wife/mother is not going to happen over night. Its going to be an on-going process. And its going to take work. Work that only *I* can do myself. And the more I see/feel that change, the more I need to be aware of it.


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## warlock07

Why dd you keep lying ? How can he be sure that he has the full truth now ? If I am not mixing up stories, you used your ill father as an excuse to meet up with the OM, right ? 

Not trying to beat you down here.


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## Thound

Foreversorry said:


> I try and look at that everyday. To see if I feel like Im going to fall back into old habits. Even small things, like the way I phrase or word something. My being a better person/wife/mother is not going to happen over night. Its going to be an on-going process. And its going to take work. Work that only *I* can do myself. And the more I see/feel that change, the more I need to be aware of it.


Are you in counseling? If not I would suggest you get into IC.


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## awake1

warlock07 said:


> Why dd you keep lying ? How can he be sure that he has the full truth now ? If I am not mixing up stories, you used your ill father as an excuse to meet up with the OM, right ?
> 
> Not trying to beat you down here.


I never had it confirmed but i suspected it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foreversorry

warlock07 said:


> Why dd you keep lying ? How can he be sure that he has the full truth now ? If I am not mixing up stories, you used your ill father to meet up with the OM, right ?
> 
> Not trying to beat you down here.


I did not use my father to meet up with the OM. Awake had that thought that it could have happened, but it didnt. Every time I had gone to visit him in the hospital, or anywhere, I had my mother (who knew nothing about the OM or any EAs until post DDay) or our kids with me. Comfirming it would be speaking to anyone of the family I had been with each time.


Why did I keep lying? Purely selfish reasons. 1. I was ashamed of what I had done. Its not that I didnt WANT to face it, I was ashamed of it. and 2. The one last detail I had omitted (where the OM was from, and that it had happened once extra time than what I had told Awake about) was because I was afraid he would think it had happened more often than what it did. Which, in hindsight, is a lame reason. But yes, very selfish.

As to how he can be sure that he has the full truth..that is where I will be putting $$ back in order to get the polygraph, as well as scheduling it, and taking it.


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## LostViking

That's a good step.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foreversorry

Thound said:


> Are you in counseling? If not I would suggest you get into IC.


ATM, due to $$ that is not possible right now. Hopefully, I can/will get a job that offers decent insurance in order to do that. Other wise, I was actually thinking about even going to talk to the wife of the pastor where the kids go to church. I figure, its a start.


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## LostViking

There are charitable organizations that offer family counseling. Maybe someone here can steer you that way if they are not whipping you with a flog.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foreversorry

LostViking said:


> There are charitable organizations that offer family counseling. Maybe someone here can steer you that way if they are not whipping you with a flog.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is something that I would be interesting in knowing more about. Thank you.


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## alte Dame

So why did you do it?


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## MattMatt

Foreversorry said:


> I have also written him an appology letter, and he does hear the "Im sorry's" a bit. I just sometimes worry that he'll 'tire' of hearing it, even though he has said I cant say it enough.
> 
> 
> Yes, we have talked in passing about my coming here, and at the same time, one of my mistakes in all this post DDAY was that I thought I could do all this on my OWN. I didn't talk to, or ask anyone for advice. I should have asked for advice from someone..ANYONE..


We'll be here for both of you.

Incidentally, why did the OM contact your husband? Was it to gloat in any way? If so, I think you and Awake1 should make him your together time hobby project. Sort of: "How we exposed the POSOM on CheaterVille.com" type of thing.


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## MattMatt

Foreversorry said:


> That is something that I would be interesting in knowing more about. Thank you.


These links might help
http://www.cchbg.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Counseling-Services.pdf
Social Service Organizations, Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh Resource Guide


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## Foreversorry

Mattmatt, about a month ago Awake and I tried contacting him in order to confirm my account of events were the truth. He didn't respond or answer the phone, so Awake tried calling him again. I guess he figured if he didn't respond, he wouldn't be left alone. Of course, he responded with a couple things that were not true, and I have no way to prove that.

As to WHY I cheated in the first place.. because I was selfish and thought I needed outside validation. Yes, the online EAs were validating, but obviously, it wasn't 'enough' and I continued looking for more. Why did I feel I needed validation? Because I felt like I wasn't getting enough attention from Awake, which again, goes right back into my being selfish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foreversorry

Ty Matt, I actually found that one earlier as well as another I think ill look into more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Ok, I'm very much pro reconciliation so this may seem like a strange question from me. But after having read this story I think I need to ask. You've lied, you treated your husband terribly, you've given your body, mind and heart to another man. Why should your husband stay with you instead of finding a woman that he can trust and that hasn't already betrayed him? What do you offer that the younger cute redhead from the coffee shop doesn't?


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## Doc Who

Just something to think about before you try to be the perfect wife and do all you can to sway awake1 into R...

Why now? Only because you see what you lost. Cute redheads want him. He is a good guy, a great dad and other women want him. You are going through rejection and you cannot stand it. You were quick to dump him for other men, but you cannot handle that he can replace you in relatively quick order for what seems like a much better model.

That sucks. And it hurts. And it makes us do things we normally do not do. But once you alleviate the rejection (say that you do get awake1 to give R a try), the chemistry in your brain will head right back to where you were. Resentful of him. Desperate for the attention of other men. Neglectful. Selfish.

Real change and I mean REAL change is hard. Not that you cannot do it. But it takes vigilance, reflection, and often professional help. His rejection of you makes for a great catalyst of change, but sustained change into something better is really, really hard.

Take a few days to consider that. If he wasn't finding greener pastures with little problem, would you honestly be here?

Don't put him through the pain of a false R "to keep the family together" if all you are going to do is run out with the next guy that says "You are pretty, let's screw."


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## Foreversorry

My wanting to 'sway him' and work on a better marriage has little if nothing to do with the fact that other women want him. I knew he was a catch before the 'younger hotter redheads' actively showed interest.I took him and our marriage for granted. I realize that. And I won't ever do that again. Why should he not 'replace me with a younger model' who hasn't betrayed him? Because I was did not always treat him badly. I did not always treat him with disrespect. At one point we had a great relationship. Until I started becoming greedy and selfish and basically a b***h. And we can get that great relationship back. Better even. And in 30-40 years, we can look back and say 'Damn that was HELL but we got through it, beat the odds and his giving me this last chance was worth it and not a mistake' Can he have a good relationship with that cute young redhead? Maybe.. maybe not. But WILL he have great new relationship/marriage with me? Yes and he and will. I am determined to fix me and be what Awake deserves. I will never again put myself in any situation where he, myself, or anyone would ever doubt my love and commitment to my husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express

Hey forever---you keep saying I'm sorry---what does that mean, its just 2 words coming from the mouth of a liar and cheater---what does I'm sorry do for anyone

Your sorry---your sorry for destroying your H's carefree life---for prior to your so called selfishness---your H, would have trusted you with anything anywhere anytime---he is never gonna trust you again---if anything out of the ordinary occurs---what is he to think????-----Your sorry, what does that mean compared to him losing his peace of mind---he will never have that again, with you around----your sorry---what do those words do for your children, who even now as this is being written, are forced to live in a home where misery/distrust/unhappiness/guilt/shame/lies leak out of every corner----and life for them, will never be the same, does I'M SORRY take care of that

Why, were you selfish---you know what---I'm selfish is just the way you are---but I'm selfish, doesn't tell anyone WHY you were with 6 other men---IN PREFERANCE TO YOUR FAMILY, it doesn't tell anyone---why you needed to deceive/manipulate/plan/lie, and sneak around, full well knowing you were destroying the innocent lives of your family---does I'm Sorry, take care of that.

Its all gonna be good 30--40 yrs from now----are you kidding me---you don't have the slightest clue---what 30-40 yrs from now are even all about

30-40 yrs from now---if you are lucky, and still in this mge---you will be together 24/7---there are no jobs to go to---kids are out of the house---and its the 2 of you together---ALL THE TIME---you don't think what you did now is gonna still be on his mind----when you have that kind of time ---everything gets replayed over and over----cuz you have nothing but time on your hands---time to think, and reflect,---on past days---and in your case---what will your H, have to think about---oh yeah---how you spread your legs, for another man---how you time and again---fought your H---so you could emotionally be with 5 other men----don't kid yourself---30-40 yrs from now ain't gonna be anything like what you think its gonna be

What is to keep you from allegedly going selfish on your H---5 to 7 yrs down the road, when things get boring again---that is if you are still in this mge----your H, will never be able to trust you---what kind of a mge, can the 2 of you even have

You talk about being the perfect wife---get real, all of a sudden you "get it"--you are now the perfect wife---well guess what---your so called perfect---IS WHAT LOYAL, MATURE, GROWN-UP, LOVING wives and mothers do all the time---did you know that, real wives are perfect, and they don't even think about it---its just what a proper wife and mother do---AND THEY DON'T NEED ANY KUDOS FOR BEING A WONDERFUL WIFE---IT JUST COMES WITH THE TERRITORY

So you tell us what does I'm Sorry---DOES FOR ANYBODY----once again, they are just words coming from the mouth of a proven liar, and cheater

What your H. needs to know---is what are you gonna really do for this mge---to give him reason to stay with you??????


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## warlock07

How did you rationalize the EA's in your mind ? You must have noticed the pattern, if not on the 2nd EA, atleast on the 3rd. What did you tell yourself ?

What about the OM? What was going through your mind when you consummated the affair ? How did you rationalize that ? Was it a fling the H did not have to know or were you deeply in love(infatuated) with the OM ? Was this supposed to be an exit affair ?

How long would you have continued if you hadn't been found out ?


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## AngryandUsed

Awake1 may have his side of validation of your so-purpoted remorse from the following:

In your Honesty. In demonstrating that you are honest with him.
In Being Truthful to him. And the marriage that your Husband belived it was.
In you being committed to the marraige, relationship.
In you being very sincere in your thoughts, deeds.

Actions speak. Not the words.


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## weightlifter

A question for personal knowlege. Then perhaps I can write what it is like for men for clarity for you. I am one of the regulars here. My specialties are discovery and doormat threads.

Anyway. Questions all tie in.

1) on the PA, You knew you were going to give yourself to another man ahead of time? How long before did you make the decision to make the EA a PA? (Time=from decision yes I am to penetration)
2) What are your thoughts that final "Faithful" hour or two before you give yourself fully to another man? This time period is roughly 
2 hours before to 2 minutes into coitus.
3) Does your thought process change during the following stages?
a) Driving to hookup spot
b) seeing OM the first time that day
c) foreplay
d) undressing
e) one half second before penetration. IE penis first touches vagina.
f) 2 minutes into coitus.

I am after PSYCHOLOGY AND YOUR THOUGHTS not a description of the sex. I realize for example c and d might be one and the same.

A point for clarity you may well know. Or not.

Do you realize just what it does to a man to know what knowing your wife had ANOTHER MAN INSIDE HER does to him? We men are primitive territorial animals. Your vagina is yours meaning ownership, but for most men, once we agree to exclusivity you have signed an EXCLUSIVE lease and upon marriage that lease is lifetime. You let another man violate his territory.

You shred his heart. Yes men do love. 
You shred his ego. He wonders why he wasnt good enough
You shred his trust. Most men want at least one part of their lives to be "safe" Safe is not exact but it is the best I can do ATM. Men are raised to be providers. This means we go out and fight the world to provide for our families. We want one damn place in our lives we dont have to worry about.

Then to top it off, for most men, sometimes the time being random. They have a good day going and all of a sudden they get the mental image of another man inseminating his woman. The day is now ruined!

My wife ONLY had an EA with an ex and it only got to the spooning part. It FVCKING KILLS me that I don't trust her fully with that 100% implicit trust. I will NEVER have it again. UGH! I will probably eventually get to 90% trust but it will NEVER be 100%. I HATE HATE HATE that! IF Awake ever gets to 80% he is the strongest man on earth.

My pain. Is a TINY fraction of what Awake feels since you gave yourself over fully.

Ugh there was another thread where 3 men described what it was like to know your wife had another man inside her. I reposted 3 comments into my own post and now I can not find it in my history. It was roughly 1-2 months ago. I wonder if it was deleted. It was VERY VERY insightful. Anyone have that one linked?


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## doubletrouble

I can tell you a few things about that from a male BS standpoint. 

Echoing what wl just said, you cannot say you're sorry often enough. Keep saying it. AND follow up with real change, real actions. 

The mind movies of her being with another man are something that runs through my head EVERY DAY. Every day when I see the same model car, hear his name randomly on the radio or during my business day, and other triggers I won't go into for various reasons... they all put my mind back in that bed, with her naked and wet, him naked and hard, taking what was supposed to be mine. She gave it willingly, thoroughly, completely, and then wrote to him what it was like to be in such a realtionship where she loved him so much. 

At that point with her I had NOTHING of what I thought I did. I was oblivious at the time, and she never told me. I had to find out. They did it in OUR bed, and since I was traveling at the time, I arrived the next day. His sperm wasn't even dead inside her before she accepted mine as well. That bites, in ways I can't even describe. It's the biggest betrayal, the biggest hit on my manhood and sexuality, as a provider and ALL the roles I take on as head of the family. That guy came in and stole it all... no, she gave it all to him in those moments. 

And it's not just the moments of sex, which are bad enough. To know what was being said between the two of them, and knowing he was married anyway, so just grabbing a free piece of ass at MY expense -- it's utter destruction of my heart. 

I could write on and on, because it goes on and on, but maybe that can give you a flavor of what you've done to your husband in those moments of gonad-driven stupidity and utter irresponsibility. You should be ashamed, you should be contrite, you should apologize over and over, and you must do all the heavy lifting because it was your CHOICE to spread 'em for some strange. 

And I tell her: I hope it was worth it.


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## alte Dame

I think you have to do much better than "I was selfish and took him for granted" as a rationale for what you have done. And if you can't dig deep and try to understand why you are the way you are, your commitment to your marriage won't be worth a plugged nickel.

You faded your H to the background, where he was, at best, a pest in your life as you pursued other, more exciting relationships with men. So, yes, you were selfish, and, yes, you took him for granted, but why were you this way? You can say you needed validation, but what, exactly, does this mean?

You treated your H with massive disrespect. You are the kind of person who can treat another person this way, a person you have supposedly committed yourself to. This, to me, is the issue. Why do you think that it's alright to disregard and disrespect your H's dignity, manhood, and commitment to you? Do you lack empathy? Maturity? A general respect for other people?


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## Foreversorry

Anyone can say "Im sorry". They are just words. They dont take away the pain that I have caused my husband, our kids, and even our families. But the actions I am working to show..IE: becoming a better, more caring person...are what is SHOWING that I am truely sorry. As for 20-30 years from now, yes, I do NOT know what it will be like. I can only hope and work at proving to him that in that many years we would look back and say it was not a mistake to try. I have stated that we can get past this, that I can and am here to help HIM through this, NOT that he/we can get OVER it. I know it will always be there and never go away. I dont expect it to. Ever. 

It was a fling. There were absolutely no feelings involved, I did not "fall in love" with the OM. It was not an 'exit affair'. As to what I was thinking as I went through the steps, I actually wasnt sure it would happen even as I was driving there. I dont know WHAT I was thinking in that moment, except "What ARE you doing?" But again, even in that mindset, yes, I still went through with it. And driving home was shaking and thinking "wtf did I just do?!". But yet, 3 months later, I was back to driving to meet the OM. Two more times. Each time, I DID think "wth am I doing this AGAIN for?" But again, I put that in a box along with him and our family and pushed it aside for a few moments of "feeling good".

Why did I take him for granted? I guess I was selfish in the point that I felt entitled to what *I* want. If I wanted to feel 'validated' why shouldnt I be able to. Its not that Awake never told me he thought I was beautiful, or that he found me sexy. Quite the opposite actually, he told me that alot. But at the time, feeling like I wasnt getting the attention I thought I 'deserved' (which, in hindsight, I really DIDN'T deserve, due to the way I treated him) attention is what I seeked out.

I disrespected him as a man, as my husband, and as a person. Even aside from the cheating, I flat out treated him like dirt most of the time. I wanted what *I* wanted and did whatever I could get get what I wanted. And yes, I do know where that comes from. That feeling of 'entitlement'. But that has to and is going to change. Yes, in order to be a good spouse and parent, you need to take care of yourself first, BUT that does NOT mean you put your SELFISH needs in front of those who are most important to you. It means the opposite. The KIDS need the attention to feel like they are important and that you want them to grow up into respectable adults. Your SPOUSE needs the love and respect so they know you appriciate everything they do, from taking care of you when you are in the hospital for a week, to working their a** off to provide, to simply just BEING there and loving you back. If I don't get to go to that concert because we don't have the $$ atm, then I shouldnt expect him to work an extra 30 hours to give that to me. That time can be spent taking the kids to the park, or making them something THEY want for dinner. Life is NOT all about what "Foreversorry" wants and thinks she should have. Its about making sure my husband knows that I value the fact that he chose ME to spend his life with, and US raising our kids together. 

Awake has stated several times to me "I hope a few minutes of getting some strange was worth it" No. Not at All. Not in the LEAST. Not only was it not worth it because I almost (and potentially still could) lose my family, but because in those moments, I also disrespected myself.


----------



## Lovemytruck

So you kinda sorta explained why you had the affairs.

What does Awake1 get out of R? 

It seems both of you have learned some very valuable things. Awake1 has learned that some spouses need consistant praise and inclusion. Some spouses also cheat, lie, and serve only themselves.

You have learned that you are a very emotionally needy person. Maybe you also have learned that you had treasure at home, but you sold it for vanity.

If you feel Awake1 was such a poor husband, why do you want to R? 

It is difficult for this reader to understand. The funny thing is that many of us have lived this. We were so horrible that our spouses HAD to cheat, then they CRY because we want out. 

Lol!

Why not be free, and find that soulmate that you want?


----------



## Rookie4

Foreversorry said:


> That is something that I would be interesting in knowing more about. Thank you.


The charitable organization part or the flagellation part? Sorry, my warped sense of humor.


----------



## Foreversorry

I never felt that Awake was a poor husband. I did not cheat because of Awake, I cheated because of ME. 
As to what he gets out of R? He gets the wife I should have been. The wife he deserves. He gets me treating him with respect and me being appreciative of him and everything he does for our family. If that means I feel 'ignored' or 'not getting enough attention' then so be it. I suck it up and read a book, talk to family members, anything but go looking outside our marriage. One mistake I had made was that while I felt like I wasnt getting 'the attention' from him (which was because he was working so hard to give me the lifestyle I thought I wanted) I should have pushed him. Instead, I closed down, and went elsewhere. HE should have been my focus, not myself. And he will see that as we R and beyond.


----------



## Rookie4

Both of you should visit the reconciliation thread. There are some really good folks there going through the same issues you are and it is very supportive.


----------



## Robsia

Lovemytruck said:


> Why not be free, and find that soulmate that you want?


Because we want the fantasy. We want a good marriage with the person that we are already in love with. We want to believe that they can rectify their faults and that we can have that happy ever after, after all. Because when it's good, it's really really good, and we want that forever.


----------



## Foreversorry

Rookie4 said:


> Both of you should visit the reconciliation thread. There are some really good folks there going through the same issues you are and it is very supportive.


I actually read that thread quite a bit, I didn't feel right posting in it just yet as I wanted to put myself out there first so that people know who I am as well. There are a few members that I keep up on in their reconciliation and can only hope and pray that Awake and I will be chugging along behind them as time goes on. We are just 6 months from DDay, and I know its a long LOOONG road.


----------



## sandc

Do you love him enough to let him go if that's what he wants?


----------



## Lovemytruck

Thanks for the reply. Sounds like you are getting some good ideas on your new path.

Maybe you can think of it this way, be a better person regardless of Awake1's decision to R or D. 

Be an awesome wife for him, or possibly a different fellow someday down the road.

I honestly felt that my exWW really would never grasp the pain she inflicted on me. The only way she could get close was to go through a D and start fresh. She needed to examine herself, re-evaluate what her goals were, and find out that the grass was not so green elsewhere.

My heart needed to heal, and start over with a woman that I could cherish and adore. Someone that had not lied, humiliated, and degraded me. It can just be too ugly for us to stay with the one that did that to us.

Hope you do better from here on out.


----------



## Doc Who

Foreversorry

You are facing difficult decisions and actions that will not be easy. You do say many good things, and I have great hopes for your recovery and healing, but you need to go into this with your eyes open.

1. Awake really resents you. If not, hates you. Or worse, has lost feelings for you. If he stays, are you okay with him staying for the kids in a marriage where he can no longer love you or decides that he cannot be with you any more in a year or two?
2. Real change is really hard. You think you can distract yourself when you are feeling neglected. Maybe for a while. You think you can engage him. But if his feelings are gone?? You have miles to go. What happens when a cute guy flirts with you and that rush of external validation hits? You might fend it off a few times, but R is hard, especially as cruel as you have been to your spouse. He is not going to rush into making you feel great, even if his feelings are still there.

I am not saying this to be cruel, but for you look at things from all viewpoints. Because in the end, the only person you can heal is yourself. And if you are doing it for another or for the marriage, it has a low probability of being a permanent change.

Strength and blessings to you


----------



## Lovemytruck

Robsia said:


> Because we want the fantasy. We want a good marriage with the person that we are already in love with. We want to believe that they can rectify their faults and that we can have that happy ever after, after all. Because when it's good, it's really really good, and we want that forever.


Very honest answer! 

The problem with this answer is that it disregards the damage you inflict into the heart of your spouse. It is the most vile act a spouse commit toward their "mate."

Maybe the loyal spouse wanted that too? What are they left with?


----------



## Foreversorry

I can not MAKE him stay, all I can do is be a better wife and person and hope that his resentment eventually subsides. It is possible to fall in love over again and I am going to do what I can to help that. If he leaves, I will continue improving myself as a person and fix things that need fixed within ME. I only hope Awake will still be there to see that.
I dont expect him to make me feel great, what I expect is for me to make HIM feel great and to make HIM feel appriciated by me again.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Yeah, I know...abuse and murder probably top betrayal.


----------



## Foreversorry

Lovemytruck said:


> Yeah, I know...abuse and murder probably top betrayal.


Some would argue that cheating is a form of abuse as well. 
I do know that the way I treated Awake at times could be (and is by him) looked at as a type emotional abuse.


----------



## Robsia

Lovemytruck said:


> Very honest answer!
> 
> The problem with this answer is that it disregards the damage you inflict into the heart of your spouse. It is the most vile act a spouse commit toward their "mate."
> 
> Maybe the loyal spouse wanted that too? What are they left with?


 I am the loyal spouse...


----------



## Ovid

thanks to this thread I'm starting to wonder when my own W will show up...


----------



## Lovemytruck

Foreversorry said:


> Some would argue that cheating is a form of abuse as well.
> I do know that the way I treated Awake at times could be (and is by him) looked at as a type emotional abuse.


Yup! A big 10-4 on that one. That is why it is considered a betrayal. It really is much more than one spouse getting a little attention and/or sex on the side.

Kind of like an emotional knife in your back. Twisted by your loved one.


----------



## Foreversorry

Ovid said:


> thanks to this thread I'm starting to wonder when my own W will show up...


Would that be a good thing? I know in the months before I actually joined, even just reading some of these threads helped me. Just seeing some of the different views on how I really did make Awake feel was eye-opening. Not that I didnt see it in HIM, but seeing how others decribed it was just as hard.


----------



## Foreversorry

Lovemytruck said:


> Yup! A big 10-4 on that one. That is why it is considered a betrayal. It really is much more than one spouse getting a little attention and/or sex on the side.
> 
> Kind of like an emotional knife in your back. Twisted by your loved one.


He has told me that since DDay, every time he hears of someone being unfaithful in anyway, he gets kind of a 'mental twitch'. Ive noticed the same thing in me. At first, it was a guilt thing, as in 'yup, I did that, Im totally ashamed of myself' now its that along with me wanting to reach through the TV/computer screen/whatever, wrap my hands around their thoat and scream "WTF ARE YOU DOING!?? DON'T be an idiot like I was!!" Even if its just a movie/tv show. Ive noticed more and more how the media plays on infidelity. But thats a whole 'nother topic..


----------



## Lovemytruck

Foreversorry said:


> He has told me that since DDay, every time he hears of someone being unfaithful in anyway, he gets kind of a 'mental twitch'. Ive noticed the same thing in me. At first, it was a guilt thing, as in 'yup, I did that, Im totally ashamed of myself' now its that along with me wanting to reach through the TV/computer screen/whatever, wrap my hands around their thoat and scream "WTF ARE YOU DOING!?? DON'T be an idiot like I was!!" Even if its just a movie/tv show. Ive noticed more and more how the media plays on infidelity. But thats a whole 'nother topic..


That's funny, I just love watching the new "Mistresses" on ABC. JK!

You sound like my exWW. It became more appearent that she felt guilty as the months rolled on...

The problem is that my feelings for her changed. It goes to a feeling that you care for your WS kind of like a naughty child or sibling. You still love them, hate what they did, and realize that they are not your partner anymore.

At my 8 month mark from her confession I had lost desire to be with her. My attraction level was zero. I didn't want to have sex with her. I didn't want to share my feelings. I didn't want to dream of her in my future.

The other women I could find became much more appealing. It was a relief to finally move out and start new.

Not saying this to hurt or scare you. It is a very likely possibility that Awake1 is heading in that direction. Please don't try to punish him more by being a b!tch if he choses to leave. Be a good ex. He deserves that.


----------



## Rollin

As far as I understand, I thought Awake is getting ready to divorce you already...


----------



## bfree

OP, speaking of guilt...do you feel at some point you will be able to forgive yourself for the damage you have done? Is your ability to forgive yourself tied to whether Awake forgives you or is it something that you will be able to/must find within yourself?


----------



## Foreversorry

Our old marriage is dead, there is no way of getting that back, I am aware of that. He has given me R with the terms of one day a time. Just because he is here today, does not mean he can promise me he will be here tomorrow. And I accept that, and make the most of that one day I have. I tell him quite a bit that I am sorry, and that I love him, and while it hurts when I dont get the I Love You Too back, I understand it. Hopefully in time, it WILL come back. In the meantime, I will just keep reassuring him that I do in fact love him, and that he means the world to me. 

As for the guilt and forgiving myself..at some point, yes, I will forgive myself for it. Awake has told me that he thinks he has forgiven me, so my forgiveness of myself does dont depend on his forgiveness of me. I dont HATE myself for what Ive done (hate is a VERY very strong word) but I am extremely disgusted with myself how I made him feel and that *I* am the one who made me look at me the way he does now.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Foreversorry said:


> Our old marriage is dead, there is no way of getting that back, I am aware of that. He has given me R with the terms of one day a time. Just because he is here today, does not mean he can promise me he will be here tomorrow. And I accept that, and make the most of that one day I have. I tell him quite a bit that I am sorry, and that I love him, and while it hurts when I dont get the I Love You Too back, I understand it. Hopefully in time, it WILL come back. In the meantime, I will just keep reassuring him that I do in fact love him, and that he means the world to me.
> 
> *This is what we call "limbo." It sucks for both sides. It is (IMHO) worse than D. For me it wasn't about forgiveness, it was about evaluting my life, her worth, and what I did or did not "deserve."*
> 
> As for the guilt and forgiving myself..at some point, yes, I will forgive myself for it. Awake has told me that he thinks he has forgiven me, so my forgiveness of myself does dont depend on his forgiveness of me. I dont HATE myself for what Ive done (hate is a VERY very strong word) but I am extremely disgusted with myself how I made him feel and that *I* am the one who made me look at me the way he does now.


Forgiveness does not equal no consequences. I am sure you understand this. What happened for both of you can not be undone. Forgiveness for me was a gift of giving myself peace. It probably is that way for both parties in the betrayal.

Talking and thinking about it is often a painful thing, but it eventually tends to lessen the hurt overall. It seems that it is on the scale of years to overcome it. Some never do.

Happiness in a marriage was my ultimate goal. He is likely deciding if you are worth the risk, or if he could find it more easily with a different partner. Lack of trust erodes the happiness.

Most of the time we (men) usually decide we will be happier elsewhere.

Not trying to be hurtful. In the end you need to do what is best for you too. A divorce is not the end of the world.


----------



## sandc

Do you love him enough to let him go if that's what he wants?


----------



## Dad&Hubby

sandc said:


> Do you love him enough to let him go if that's what he wants?


Yes because after reading his thread....That might be the direction this goes.


----------



## awake1

Lovemytruck said:


> Forgiveness does not equal no consequences. I am sure you understand this. What happened for both of you can not be undone. Forgiveness for me was a gift of giving myself peace. It probably is that way for both parties in the betrayal.


I started to forgive when I realized that we're products of our own upbringing, situations, and choices. 

What others do does not reflect on me at all. It is their choice to do as they want. 



Lovemytruck said:


> Happiness in a marriage was my ultimate goal. He is likely deciding if you are worth the risk, or if he could find it more easily with a different partner. Lack of trust erodes the happiness.
> 
> Most of the time we (men) usually decide we will be happier elsewhere.


That's what I kick around on any given day. The question has been "What is offered that makes it worth it?" I've come up with kids, a life built together, keeping the family unit together, not having to move, having someone to share the bills with, not wasting all the history etc. 

But those are all reasons to stay in general. Not reasons to stay with _this_ person. 

That is the 1,000,000 dollar question. The question isn't should I stay. The question is should i stay with this person? It's a question that I haven't answered yet.


----------



## LostViking

Yeah I just went back through Awake's thread and I was reminded that just a couple months back when you had ankle surgery your husband played nursemaid for you, seeing to your every need, and even during that time you were in daily contact with online partners .

That is pretty damn cold Foreversorry. 

Even by TAM standards that stunt right there is enough to make most people here hate your guts. How have you explained your state of mind to Awake that would have caused you to behave with such utter disregard for a man who was basically being your manservant b!tch?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Foreversorry

That is not a simple yes or no answer because saying just no can be seen as being selfish, yet saying yes would look like not being willing to fight for us. Should he chose to leave, I can not MAKE him stay. I wouldn't have a choice in letting him go in that sense. I would also continue working to better myself for the kids as well as myself. But I am, fighting like hell and will continue to, to show him that he would be making a safe no regrets choice should he stay. Do I love him enough to let him go by MY choice? If I did not feel that I could change and be a good wife to him, then I would let him go..continuing to treat him badly and dishing out that 'emotional abuse would be selfish. But knowing that I can be that good wife and give him that good marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## awake1

LostViking said:


> Yeah I just went back through Awake's thread and I was reminded that just a couple months back when you had ankle surgery your husband played nursemaid for you, seeing to your every need, and even during that time you were in daily contact with online partners .
> 
> That is pretty damn cold Foreversorry.
> 
> Even by TAM standards that stunt right there is enough to make most people here hate your guts. How have you explained your state of mind to Awake that would have caused you to behave with such utter disregard for a man who was basically being your manservant b!tch?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As far as I know it wasn't daily contact, just when she was in the rehab place. What she was doing was covering up the full extent of her activity and lying to me about it while I was being her manservant lol. 

If it was vague in my thread im sorry. Just wanted to clarify that. To my knowledge she's talked to these OM little since jan. (on a few occasions that i'm aware of. But the last that I know about was 2 months ago.)

EDIT: To clarify more: I know she talked to one of the OM at least late january (he confirmed it) and while she was in rehab.


----------



## Foreversorry

Viking, when I had my surgery I was NOT in daily, or ANY contact with any of the OMs. The contact that was made was after Awake had told me, at that time, that he was not going to work on R. He was here with the kids until I came home. That contact was a mistake, bad idea, no matter if he was willing to R or not. That's no making excuses, that is just my clarification that I was not talking to anyone while there was a chance of R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BK23

Foreversorry said:


> Viking, when I had my surgery I was NOT in daily, or ANY contact with any of the OMs. The contact that was made was after Awake had told me, at that time, that he was not going to work on R. He was here with the kids until I came home. That contact was a mistake, bad idea, no matter if he was willing to R or not. That's no making excuses, that is just my clarification that I was not talking to anyone while there was a chance of R.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So if Awake has a bad day and says he's not feeling so hot about R, you'll start lining up your plans B, C, D, E, etc.? 

Awake--run. fast. you will get hurt again.


----------



## LostViking

Clarification noted. Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lovemytruck

awake1 said:


> I started to forgive when I realized that we're products of our own upbringing, situations, and choices.
> 
> What others do does not reflect on me at all. It is their choice to do as they want.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I kick around on any given day. The question has been "What is offered that makes it worth it?" I've come up with kids, a life built together, keeping the family unit together, not having to move, having someone to share the bills with, not wasting all the history etc.
> 
> But those are all reasons to stay in general. Not reasons to stay with _this_ person.
> 
> That is the 1,000,000 dollar question. The question isn't should I stay. The question is should i stay with this person? It's a question that I haven't answered yet.


It feels good to know that I helped to clarify your spot. Very, very normal. You sound like you are close to the same timeframe that I needed.

The hardest part is now you are in a position of being the parent that has to tear the family apart. Something that you probably cherished more than anything in your life.

It sucks. It really sucks.

My wise old MC told me that if you decide it is over, don't give her false hopes. It will hurt her more if you let her think that she still has chances.

Sorry for both of you. Hope you both find your joy someday soon.


----------



## Foreversorry

No, it was not a 'bad day' at the time. When I came home, he came over, I told him about the contact made, we (I) blocked the numbers after setting up NC and that's when he chose to give me day to day R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## awake1

LostViking said:


> Clarification noted. Thanks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What bothered me was that while I was being her manservant, she was still lying to my face swearing there was no more. 

It's poor behavior regardless.


----------



## Foreversorry

Awake is not giving me false hope. I know tomorrow is not promised. Again, all I can do is continue proving my remorse and showing him that things are and will be different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Trying to save what's left*



Foreversorry said:


> Viking, when I had my surgery I was NOT in daily, or ANY contact with any of the OMs. The contact that was made was after Awake had told me, at that time, that he was not going to work on R. He was here with the kids until I came home. That contact was a mistake, bad idea, no matter if he was willing to R or not. That's no making excuses, that is just my clarification that I was not talking to anyone while there was a chance of R.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ouch. That would certainly have me questioning whether if things aren't going well you would go back to your old habits. See that's part of why he isn't sure you are the one deserving of his commitment. Because you haven't shown even as lately as a couple of months ago that you will be faithful. I'm beginning to feel that you don't necessarily want Awake per se but want what he represents. A stable family and life. Many times on TAM we see a BS fight to win back a WS but once that happens the BS starts to wonder just what it is that he/she won? What happens if Awake does decide to give you another chance and you start feeling the itch again because you now have what you want. I guess what I'm asking is are you fighting for the marriage or fighting to attain your goal of staying married? Will you become complacent once you have what you want?


----------



## awake1

Lovemytruck said:


> It feels good to know that I helped to clarify your spot. Very, very normal. You sound like you are close to the same timeframe that I needed.
> 
> The hardest part is now you are in a position of being the parent that has to tear the family apart. Something that you probably cherished more than anything in your life.
> 
> It sucks. It really sucks.
> 
> My wise old MC told me that if you decide it is over, don't give her false hopes. It will hurt her more if you let her think that she still has chances.
> 
> Sorry for both of you. Hope you both find your joy someday soon.


When I decide, and I feel that the decision won't flop like a fish again, she'll be the first to know. 

I'm very tired of drama and games. My cup runeth over on all that. I want to get on with life in whatever direction that is.


----------



## awake1

bfree said:


> Ouch. That would certainly have me questioning whether if things aren't going well you would go back to your old habits. See that's part of why he isn't sure you are the one deserving of his commitment. Because you haven't shown even as lately as a couple of months ago that you will be faithful.



Bingo. That too, was poor form.


----------



## sandc

I don't think she can answer my question.


----------



## LostViking

The two of you should start posting in the Reconcilliation thread. There are couples there who are going through this and who can help you out. I'm a two time divorcee so I can't really give good advice on R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doubletrouble

Foreversorry said:


> Anyone can say "Im sorry". They are just words.
> 
> *Yes, but they are still damned important words to hear.*
> 
> It was a fling. There were absolutely no feelings involved,
> 
> *...except your husband and family and...*
> 
> That feeling of 'entitlement'. But that has to and is going to change. Yes, in order to be a good spouse and parent, you need to take care of yourself first, BUT that does NOT mean you put your SELFISH needs in front of those who are most important to you. It means the opposite.
> 
> *That entitlement thing -- I used to think it was just the teens and 20-somethings that had it so bad. Seems to be an epidemic. But I, for what it's worth, am glad to see you resognize it for what it is. *
> 
> Life is NOT all about what "Foreversorry" wants and thinks she should have. Its about making sure my husband knows that I value the fact that he chose ME to spend his life with, and US raising our kids together.
> 
> *Sucks that you've managed to make it that much more difficult for all involved. But live and learn -- none of us are perfect. I am not throwing stones here, by the way, so please don't take it as such.*
> 
> Awake has stated several times to me "I hope a few minutes of getting some strange was worth it" No. Not at All. Not in the LEAST. Not only was it not worth it because I almost (and potentially still could) lose my family, but because in those moments, I also disrespected myself.


My WW also had the same internal issues. She knew she was being a hypocrite, knew she was screwing up, but for reasons I just still cannot assemble in my head, she did it anyway.


----------



## Foreversorry

I am fighting for my marriage to Awake. Its HIM that I am giving my all for. Should he decide that staying if what he wants, even years from now I will be fighting for my marriage to him. Its not the 'paper' or the 'comfort' of having him here that I want. Its him and everything about him. I want his laugh, his corny jokes, his brain and his heart. I want to be that smiling face that is happy to see him when he comes home from even a bad day at work. I want to be the one he wants to tell about his day. He will be shown on a daily basis how much MORE I respect and appreciate the fact that he is still here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

LostViking said:


> Yeah I just went back through Awake's thread and I was reminded that just a couple months back when you had ankle surgery your husband played nursemaid for you, seeing to your every need, and even during that time you were in daily contact with online partners .
> 
> That is pretty damn cold Foreversorry.
> 
> Even by TAM standards that stunt right there is enough to make most people here hate your guts. How have you explained your state of mind to Awake that would have caused you to behave with such utter disregard for a man who was basically being your manservant b!tch?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My WH broke his foot last summer and even though we were going through a really bad time in our marriage, I dropped everything to ferry him to the hospital for his various appointments, looked after him, took him places he needed to be. I even sewed up the ends of a pair of old legwarmers to make big socks that would go over his cast so he didn't get cold toes.

All the time he was on dating sites chatting to other women. The only reason he wasn't meeting up with them was because he was in plaster and couldn't drive. As soon as he was better, he started meeting up with them.


----------



## Chris989

Robsia said:


> My WH broke his foot last summer and even though we were going through a really bad time in our marriage, I dropped everything to ferry him to the hospital for his various appointments, looked after him, took him places he needed to be. I even sewed up the ends of a pair of old legwarmers to make big socks that would go over his cast so he didn't get cold toes.


Good for you. That is exactly what marriage is about.



Robsia said:


> All the time he was on dating sites chatting to other women. The only reason he wasn't meeting up with them was because he was in plaster and couldn't drive. As soon as he was better, he started meeting up with them.


That is exactly what every cheater's mindset is, isn't it?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Trying to save what's left*



Foreversorry said:


> I am fighting for my marriage to Awake. Its HIM that I am giving my all for. Should he decide that staying if what he wants, even years from now I will be fighting for my marriage to him. Its not the 'paper' or the 'comfort' of having him here that I want. Its him and everything about him. I want his laugh, his corny jokes, his brain and his heart. I want to be that smiling face that is happy to see him when he comes home from even a bad day at work. I want to be the one he wants to tell about his day. He will be shown on a daily basis how much MORE I respect and appreciate the fact that he is still here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But once you've “won" and Awake decides to R what happens then? You've already shown with actions that you very easily relapse into cheater mode. What assurance can you give to Awake that once he's given you his recommitment that you won't betray him again?


----------



## Foreversorry

Sandc, I did answer you. Its not a simple yes or no question.  

I still appreciate your responses Viking.

Yes, I'm sorry IS still important to say, and I do and will continue to. There are a lot of things I am working on changing. Some are evident now, others are works in progress, and all are ongoing as well as permanent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lovemytruck

Robsia said:


> My WH broke his foot last summer and even though we were going through a really bad time in our marriage, I dropped everything to ferry him to the hospital for his various appointments, looked after him, took him places he needed to be. I even sewed up the ends of a pair of old legwarmers to make big socks that would go over his cast so he didn't get cold toes.
> 
> All the time he was on dating sites chatting to other women. The only reason he wasn't meeting up with them was because he was in plaster and couldn't drive. As soon as he was better, he started meeting up with them.


All too common. The caretaker usually feeds the entitlement mindset. I seems to happen over and over again.

It is ironic that those that seem to receive more than they give end up as the WS. 

Just sayin'!


----------



## Foreversorry

There is no 'winning'. R is a lifetime thing, not just 'until things get better'. I have signed a prenup, though unfortunately, I had done so while I was still with-holding information. If signing another would be an option, I would do it. My assurance should he chose recommitment, is continued openness about everything for as long as needed, forever for all I care, not breaking any of the boundaries that have already been put into place, and showing him with my actions that I'm going above and beyond.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## talin

Foreversorry said:


> I have signed a prenup, though unfortunately, I had done so while I was still with-holding information. If signing another would be an option, I would do it.


Why would you sign a second prenuptual agreement?

Although it's not a prenuptual agreement, it's a post nuptial agreement if it happened during the marriage when you were having an affair and withholding information. 

You can always modify a post nuptual agreement and put verbage in there such as "If I have another affair he gets everything".


----------



## MattMatt

Foreversorry said:


> My wanting to 'sway him' and work on a better marriage has little if nothing to do with the fact that other women want him. I knew he was a catch before the 'younger hotter redheads' actively showed interest.I took him and our marriage for granted. I realize that. And I won't ever do that again. Why should he not 'replace me with a younger model' who hasn't betrayed him? Because I was did not always treat him badly. I did not always treat him with disrespect. At one point we had a great relationship. Until I started becoming greedy and selfish and basically a b***h. And we can get that great relationship back. Better even. And in 30-40 years, we can look back and say '*Damn that was HELL but we got through it,* beat the odds and his giving me this last chance was worth it and not a mistake' Can he have a good relationship with that cute young redhead? Maybe.. maybe not. But WILL he have great new relationship/marriage with me? Yes and he and will. I am determined to fix me and be what Awake deserves. I will never again put myself in any situation where he, myself, or anyone would ever doubt my love and commitment to my husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, yeah! Been there, done that!:smthumbup:


----------



## MattMatt

Robsia said:


> My WH broke his foot last summer and even though we were going through a really bad time in our marriage, I dropped everything to ferry him to the hospital for his various appointments, looked after him, took him places he needed to be. *I even sewed up the ends of a pair of old legwarmers* to make big socks that would go over his cast so he didn't get cold toes.
> 
> All the time he was on dating sites chatting to other women. The only reason he wasn't meeting up with them was because he was in plaster and couldn't drive. As soon as he was better, he started meeting up with them.


Now, honey, I think I can see the mistake you made, right there. Clearly, you sewed the wrong thing up! If you'd have sewn his d**k up, why you might have had a result!:smthumbup:
:rofl:


----------



## Foreversorry

talin said:


> Why would you sign a second prenuptual agreement?
> 
> Although it's not a prenuptual agreement, it's a post nuptial agreement if it happened during the marriage when you were having an affair and withholding information.
> 
> You can always modify a post nuptual agreement and put verbage in there such as "If I have another affair he gets everything".


Sorry, fingers were going fast than my brain was, I did mean I had signed a post-nup. That is exactly what it had said, that if I ever cheated again, he gets everything and then some.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Foreversorry said:


> I have signed a prenup, though unfortunately, I had done so while I was still with-holding information. If signing another would be an option, I would do it. _Posted via Mobile Device_


Holy crap! I do feel for you two, but this is making me laugh.

Curiosity killed the cat, you know? 

I wonder how many post-nups would make him trust you now?

Oh sweet, confused, messed-up girl! I hope you do well in your future.

It does feel better to have a wife that is honest. My new wife is very sincere, and it makes life blissful after going through an awful betrayal, limbo, and divorce.

Good luck in changing yourself!


----------



## Foreversorry

Lovemytruck said:


> Holy crap! I do feel for you two, but this is making me laugh.
> 
> Curiosity killed the cat, you know?
> 
> *I wonder how many post-nups would make him trust you now?*
> 
> Oh sweet, confused, messed-up girl! I hope you do well in your future.
> 
> It does feel better to have a wife that is honest. My new wife is very sincere, and it makes life blissful after going through an awful betrayal, limbo, and divorce.
> 
> Good luck in changing yourself!



But you know what? I dont care if I have to sign a post-nup on every DDay or R anniversary. It doesnt matter what I have to do to (eventually) gain trust back. He does have an honest wife who is sincere and is trying like hell to make his life blissful again. Its extremely unforunate and sad that I have to do all this and more in order for him to gain at least some trust back, but you know what, *I* did this. *I* made my bed, and I need to lay in it. *I* need to, and WILL do whatever it may take for him to feel secure in a marriage with me again.


----------



## LostViking

I have an idea for a boundary. Does your list include this?

No male friends or acquaintances outside the family. None. 

No girls night out, no going to any social scenes without your husband present. Ever. 

No toxic friends. None. If your husband dislikes or disapproves of a female friend you are hanging out with, she is gone yesterday. No questions asked. 

While in public or outside the home you conduct yourself as Ms. Awake. There should be no question in anyone's mind that you are a married woman. In public you dress modestly except when you are stepping out with Awake. You dress sexy for no one but him. At home you are Awake's wife, friend, coparent, teammate, companion, confidant, and ally. In the bedroom you are his lover, his slvt, his wh0re.....

Outside the home you are a nun. 

Think you can handle that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lovemytruck

Foreversorry said:


> But you know what? I dont care if I have to sign a post-nup on every DDay or R anniversary. It doesnt matter what I have to do to (eventually) gain trust back. He does have an honest wife who is sincere and is trying like hell to make his life blissful again. Its extremely unforunate and sad that I have to do all this and more in order for him to gain at least some trust back, but you know what, *I* did this. *I* made my bed, and I need to lay in it. *I* need to, and WILL do whatever it may take for him to feel secure in a marriage with me again.


Are you my exWW? Lol!

Your spunk makes you sound sincere. I think you missed the point just a little.

The damage has been done. The bleeding is still happening.

Your efforts might not amount to anything more than prolonged heartache.

Change for YOURSELF. You might need to go through the D to find yourself again. Then be a good wife to husband #2, if that is the path you face.

It is impossible for anyone on TAM make your choices, or Awake1's choices.

I chose to D. No regrets. It seems much easier in the long run than R.


----------



## Foreversorry

LostViking said:


> I have an idea for a boundary. Does your list include this?
> 
> No male friends or acquaintances outside the family. None.
> 
> No girls night out, no going to any social scenes without your husband present. Ever.
> 
> No toxic friends. None. If your husband dislikes or disapproves of a female friend you are hanging out with, she is gone yesterday. No questions asked.
> 
> While in public or outside the home you conduct yourself as Ms. Awake. There should be no question in anyone's mind that you are a married woman. In public you dress modestly except when you are stepping out with Awake. You dress sexy for no one but him. At home you are Awake's wife, friend, coparent, teammate, companion, confidant, and ally. In the bedroom you are his lover, his slvt, his wh0re.....
> 
> Outside the home you are a nun.
> 
> Think you can handle that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually, everything there but how I dress IS on our 'boundry list' lol
Maybe I will have him print that out as another agreement I can sign..


----------



## Rollin

Foreversorry said:


> Actually, everything there but how I dress IS on our 'boundry list' lol
> Maybe I will have him print that out as another agreement I can sign..


what you should do is print it out yourself and sign it and make an "agreement" with yourself


----------



## Foreversorry

Rollin said:


> what you should do is print it out yourself and sign it and make an "agreement" with yourself


I mention to have him doing so because at home, we do not have a printer, he does at work..

Although..I could handwrite it out...


----------



## awake1

To address a big reason i feel im in limbo: A major belief she hasn't come totally clean. 

The story had holes and didn't make a lot of sense to me.


----------



## LongWalk

Weightlifter asked some rather direct questions, which I don't think you answered. So, I am going to take stab at it.



> 1) on the PA, You knew you were going to give yourself to another man ahead of time? How long before did you make the decision to make the EA a PA? (Time=from decision yes I am to penetration)


I thought I could cover up the EA if I was careful. That was easy and when he didn't notice the EA after a few days, I began think PA could also be hidden. When I had decided to PA, he didn't notice, so I decided to go for PA as soon as the OM suggested it.



> 2) What are your thoughts that final "Faithful" hour or two before you give yourself fully to another man? This time period is roughly
> 2 hours before to 2 minutes into coitus.


I was just excited by everything and hope the OM would like me. I hoped I would be good enough for him.



> 3) Does your thought process change during the following stages?
> a) Driving to hookup spot


I drove as fast as could and maybe a little over the speed limit. It felt good hurrying like that.



> b) seeing OM the first time that day


In some ways he was different than I expected, in other ways he was better. But overall he was good enough and I wanted to try him. I wanted him to like me



> c) foreplay


We hurried the first time.



> d) undressing


We didn't hang our clothes up carefully.



> e) one half second before penetration. IE penis first touches vagina.


That's all I was thinking about.

f) 2 minutes into coitus.
I didn't want it to end

My questions:

1) Maybe the sex was great, maybe it wasn't. If you say it wasn't, it sounds like a lie, right? If you admit it was really pleasurable, Awake will be more likely to divorce you, or not?

2) Awake was a virgin when you married him. Did you look down upon him for this? I think you did.

3) Would you like Awake to experience sex with another woman if you knew that he would still be yours afterwards?


----------



## Foreversorry

awake1 said:


> To address a big reason i feel im in limbo: A major belief she hasn't come totally clean.
> 
> The story had holes and didn't make a lot of sense to me.


The story doesnt have 'holes', it just doesnt make sense to you the way it happened. Once we can get the poly, among other things, you will see that hun.


----------



## Foreversorry

LongWalk said:


> Weightlifter asked some rather direct questions, which I don't think you answered. So, I am going to take stab at it.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I could cover up the EA if I was careful. That was easy and when he didn't notice the EA after a few days, I began think PA could also be hidden. When I had decided to PA, he didn't notice, so I decided to go for PA as soon as the OM suggested it.
> 
> 
> 
> I was just excited by everything and hope the OM would like me. I hoped I would be good enough for him.
> 
> 
> I drove as fast as could and maybe a little over the speed limit. It felt good hurrying like that.
> 
> 
> In some ways he was different than I expected, in other ways he was better. But overall he was good enough and I wanted to try him. I wanted him to like me
> 
> 
> We hurried the first time.
> 
> 
> We didn't hang our clothes up carefully.
> 
> 
> That's all I was thinking about.
> 
> f) 2 minutes into coitus.
> I didn't want it to end



Glad you can make light of it thinking that you know/knew what was in my head. 

FTR, I DID answer a few of those questions, as in what was going through my mind on my way/before as well as after. 
As to what I was thinking JUST beforehand, I can not answer that because I do not remember and I am not going to make something up that 'sounds good'.

*My questions:

1) Maybe the sex was great, maybe it wasn't. If you say it wasn't, it sounds like a lie, right? If you admit it was really pleasurable, Awake will be more likely to divorce you, or not?

2) Awake was a virgin when you married him. Did you look down upon him for this? I think you did.

3) Would you like Awake to experience sex with another woman if you knew that he would still be yours afterwards?*


1. No, actually, it WASNT great. Me and Awake have actually talked about this several times. 

2. I did not ever look down on him for this fact. I have told him that as well previously.

3. This is something that Awake and I have privately discussed more than a few times. lol


----------



## talin

If your husband knows the answers, you don't need to provide them to anyone else. Especially someone who is being antagonistic.

Just say'en.


----------



## alte Dame

Your treatment of your H, not just with your cheating, but with your generally dismissive attitude, was disrespect writ large. We talk about trust being lost, but when you so consistently disrespect a man who himself is honorable and respectful, he loses respect for you.

That is what, I imagine, you have created in your H. He not only doesn't trust you, but he probably doesn't quite respect the person that he has uncovered in all of this. You don't change that with some words in a few months time.

Awake comes across as a smart, perceptive man. He doesn't think he has the full truth yet & I bet he is correct. Again, trust and respect lost. I think he deserves much more than you can offer him now.


----------



## LostViking

Like I said Foreversorry, we have a lot of angry people on this forum. You have to take good with bad. But a lot of the more snide responses you are getting here can give you an insight into how Awake may feel inside. A lot of these same thoughts have sprung up in his head and will continue to do so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CEL

Forever I want to say to hang in there I know that TAM can be a hard place to come if you are a WS but it can also be a gold mine for finding ideas on how to heal a marriage. I would recommend you reach out to some of the WS in the Reconciliation Thread they may be able to offer more specific advice that has helped them also they may feel that some of the advice is of a very personal nature. So I would start working on that plus you will need your own support network and who better than people who have and some are where you currently are.

All that being said you have to realize that I just don't know any advice that can help you. The level of the deception over and over again is just so much that I find it hard to help you, I know this reflects badly on me as a person but it is just very hard to want to see you happy after these actions. I can offer a few things being as I do understand some of what he is going through and yourself as well.

1. He was virgin when you met that was something special that he shared with only you. Was it special for you as well? 

2. Are you in IC? "Sorry if you have already said"

3. Are you in MC?

4. If you fell with just this how do you see yourself being able to support him when times really get tough like an illness or an accident? Do you see these things as different? I can honestly say that I can believe this is one of his worries now he looks at his life as being alone against the world he would no doubt worry if you would ever be able to handle a rough patch without cheating.

5. Why now? I know this has been asked but do you have a reason why this time is so different from the other times. Was it just that he has made his decision and moved on that scares you.

6. If he goes through with the divorce will you still want to be with him? Or is that a deal breaker for you?

7. What are you doing for yourself? You need to try to heal the damage you have done not just for yourself but for him. I would encourage you to start a journal and everyday write your thoughts at least a little this can help you work through them.


You are in a bad spot but he has not left you...yet. You have to keep doing all the things you are already doing and make sure that you understand for him this may be the way it is for a long time to come. I think you love him it is not the same love I have for my girl as my love includes empathy I just could not hurt her the way you have hurt him. The IC should be able to work on that with you, many of these affairs are due to a lack of compassion for an understanding of the pain of others. I do wish you the best and I wish that I had more to give you to help you. I want you to know that although you made horrendous choices you can change and be something beautiful and wonderful but only if you choose everyday to be that person. Good luck and the best of wishes for you.


----------



## Foreversorry

alte Dame said:


> Your treatment of your H, not just with your cheating, but with your generally dismissive attitude, was disrespect writ large. We talk about trust being lost, but when you so consistently disrespect a man who himself is honorable and respectful, he loses respect for you.
> I am completely aware of this.
> 
> That is what, I imagine, you have created in your H. He not only doesn't trust you, but he probably doesn't quite respect the person that he has uncovered in all of this. You don't change that with some words in a few months time.
> I never expected ANYTHING to change in 'a few months time' I have said over and over that not only do I not EXPECT anything, but I know that if trust, respect, and his feeling even a little safe comes that it will take a LONG time.
> 
> Awake comes across as a smart, perceptive man. He doesn't think he has the full truth yet & I bet he is correct. Again, trust and respect lost. I think he deserves much more than you can offer him now.
> He is a very smart man, I will be the first (ok, second to him ) to tell anyone that. He believes that he does not have the full truth because I had lied and held back for months before I put it all out there. I don't blame him for feeling that way, I get that. He deserves A LOT and I CAN offer that to him, and will show that.


----------



## Foreversorry

LostViking said:


> Like I said Foreversorry, we have a lot of angry people on this forum. You have to take good with bad. But a lot of the more snide responses you are getting here can give you an insight into how Awake may feel inside. A lot of these same thoughts have sprung up in his head and will continue to do so.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know that about this board, and I am still here answering and not running away.


----------



## talin

Foreversorry said:


> I know that about this board, and I am still here answering and not running away.


Does it help your marriage to answer these questions?

I'd think your time might be better spent...talking to your husband directly.


----------



## alte Dame

Foreversorry said:


> ....
> I never expected ANYTHING to change in 'a few months time' I have said over and over that not only do I not EXPECT anything, but I know that if trust, respect, and his feeling even a little safe comes that it will take a LONG time.


I was being careful with my wording, Foreversorry. For me, as with many people & perhaps even your H, the loss of respect that results from the relentless disrespectful treatment that you dished out is a permanent condition. In other words, the balance gets tipped and there isn't any going back or recovering.


----------



## swedish

sandc said:


> Do you love him enough to let him go if that's what he wants?


Great question - I believe the answer to this is telling as far as trying to become a less selfish person and truly putting your spouses needs and happiness above your own, even if it means ending the marriage against your wishes, because at the end of the day, only he can decide whether he is able to move past infidelity or not...forgiveness is a big step but usually does not equate to getting over the pain, images, triggers, and general fall-out of being betrayed...some are able to recover and others are not.


----------



## Foreversorry

CEL said:


> 1. He was virgin when you met that was something special that he shared with only you. Was it special for you as well?
> 
> 2. Are you in IC? "Sorry if you have already said"
> 
> 3. Are you in MC?
> 
> 4. If you fell with just this how do you see yourself being able to support him when times really get tough like an illness or an accident? Do you see these things as different? I can honestly say that I can believe this is one of his worries now he looks at his life as being alone against the world he would no doubt worry if you would ever be able to handle a rough patch without cheating.
> 
> 5. Why now? I know this has been asked but do you have a reason why this time is so different from the other times. Was it just that he has made his decision and moved on that scares you.
> 
> 6. If he goes through with the divorce will you still want to be with him? Or is that a deal breaker for you?
> 
> 7. What are you doing for yourself? You need to try to heal the damage you have done not just for yourself but for him. I would encourage you to start a journal and everyday write your thoughts at least a little this can help you work through them.


1.) Yes, it was special to me. I also know that I ruined that fact. He saved and gave himself to someone who felt lucky to get that gift, who only in turn gave that same very thing to someone else.

2 and 3.) not at the moment due to $$/insurence issues, but hoping to work that out. Ive mentioned MC to Awake, and while I think he would be open to it, its too early for that. IC needs to come first.

4.) I wasnt there for him when I should have been. That is something I can only prove when those times would come. There isnt any concrete 'action' to show until then. Words are words, and my word is dirt atm.

5.) The simplest answer I have told him when he asked this when he came to me after I was home from the rehab place, I realized just HOWCLOSE I was after everything to losing him. I am still close, but with this day to day chance, that thin thin melting sliver of ice I was standing on re-froze into a small thin sheet instead of a sliver. I am slowly piling bits of snow onto that thin sheet to try and keep it from melting anymore, as well as building it into a stronger piece of ice.

6.) Again, something we have discussed already, and yes, I will still want to be with him. Divorced but committed relationship is 100xs better than divorced and not having him at all.

7.) For myself, I am seeing where I need to make changes, again, not just for him, but for our kids as well as me. A journal may not be a bad idea instead of just working through thoughts that pop into my head.


----------



## Foreversorry

talin said:


> Does it help your marriage to answer these questions?
> 
> I'd think your time might be better spent...talking to your husband directly.


We talk quite a bit. Most everything thats been asked to me here, he has asked me. I havent told/answered anything that I havent told/answered to Awake.


----------



## weightlifter

Back off a bit please.

Her answer matches 3 others i have had a chance to get. This includes one where the BS asked her for mevery near the date of the confrontation where she was in dire fear of divorce if she did not come clean. She in fact was very specific on other questions.

In fact. Hers is abit more specific than two of them. I get the impression, women plan well beforehand subconsciously then shut off part of their conscious minds to compartmentalize.

This is not an excuse. I will continue to ask this question as i get theoppotunity. I tried on prvtaffrs dotcom and my thread was promptly deleted.


----------



## awake1

weightlifter said:


> Her answer matches 3 others i have had a chance to get. This includes one where the BS asked her for mevery near the date of the confrontation where she was in dire fear of divorce if she did not come clean. She in fact was very specific on other questions.
> 
> In fact. Hers is abit more specific than two of them. I get the impression, women plan well beforehand subconsciously then shut off part of their conscious minds to compartmentalize.


Which question are you referring to?


----------



## weightlifter

Awake. Glad to answer for you. You have answered numerous of mine.



weightlifter said:


> A question for personal knowlege. <snip>
> Anyway. Questions all tie in.
> 
> 1) on the PA, You knew you were going to give yourself to another man ahead of time? How long before did you make the decision to make the EA a PA? (Time=from decision yes I am to penetration)
> 2) What are your thoughts that final "Faithful" hour or two before you give yourself fully to another man? This time period is roughly
> 2 hours before to 2 minutes into coitus.
> 3) Does your thought process change during the following stages?
> a) Driving to hookup spot
> b) seeing OM the first time that day
> c) foreplay
> d) undressing
> e) one half second before penetration. IE penis first touches vagina.
> f) 2 minutes into coitus.
> 
> I am after PSYCHOLOGY AND YOUR THOUGHTS not a description of the sex. I realize for example c and d might be one and the same.


This question is for my own knowledge and helping others in CWI.

Forever's answer is not specific. I would kill to get one. But in the four times I have been able to get an answer. It is a very vague one every time, in fact I got more from her answer than 2 of the answers for sure. Thus my hypothesis that women willfully ingore parts of their brains to compartmentalize. I continue to ask but it IS a pattern I see so far.


----------



## LongWalk

Everyone compartmentalizes. Video games are not real but create real emotions.

People remember sex unless drunk
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Foreversorry said:


> I want to preface this by saying that I am the WS. My husband has been here since DDay and I have lurked just about as long, only joining a few days ago, tryin to get up the courage to post hoping for some advice/help of my own. This site has been a huge help to him...
> 
> *I have had 6 online EAs involving txts as well as pics, and 1 EA/PA in a span of 2 years before DDay. After DDay, I had made promises that I would do ANYTHING to make us 'work' if he would just give me that chance. He did give me that chance. Several times. And each time, I broke promises, and TT'ed him to death*. Ive put him through hell. By the time I was done TTing, Ive put everything out there, and kept promises, he gave me one last shot. But in this last chance, he is very uncertain, and rightfully so. Not only was I lying to him during the cheating, but EVERY oppertunity he gave me to come clean, I threw away. I do not blame him for feeling the way that he does. I am EXTREMELY thankful that he is giving me this day by day. To make matters worse, the OM finally contacted him to confirm what I have told him to be the truth, only his 'version' is slightly off than mine, and honestly not true. Unfortunetly, with all my previous lies and TT, BS has a hard time believeing still that I AM being truthful. And again, I truely understand that.
> 
> I don't know what else I can do to prove myself that there is nothing more that I am trying to hide, that there isnt any little tidbit that he isnt aware of, that I am honestly commited to doing everything I can to show him that I have changed, will continue to change, and that I will do whatever I need to do to prevent this from ever happening again. That he, our marriage, and our family is what I am commited to fixing, because I know it can be done.
> 
> I know this is a very VERY condensed version of whats happened. I will answer any questions the best I can.


Foreversorry:
my opinion/advice is as follows - 

You are not marriage material; your track record with your current husband makes this clear. Your ingrained compulsions cannot be held at bay for more than finite intervals. You and your husband should follow through with divorce. Once you get yourself 'single' again - standard IC will NOT be sufficient to address your character issues in any significant way. A much more hard-nosed regime of cognitive and behavioral therapy might help you. Perhaps with a good therapist and a few years of hard work you could end up in a different place, emotionally - ready to consider a real marriage commitment with someone.

In the meantime, your current husband will have a much better chance of building a stable marriage with someone else. Most women do not cheat on their husbands; the most credible statistics put the rate at not higher than 20%. So the odds are much better for him without you than with you.

None of this means that your role as a mother should end or cannot be strengthened, of course.


----------



## awake1

weightlifter said:


> Awake. Glad to answer for you. You have answered numerous of mine.
> 
> 
> 
> This question is for my own knowledge and helping others in CWI.
> 
> Forever's answer is not specific. I would kill to get one. But in the four times I have been able to get an answer. It is a very vague one every time, in fact I got more from her answer than 2 of the answers for sure. Thus my hypothesis that women willfully ingore parts of their brains to compartmentalize. I continue to ask but it IS a pattern I see so far.


Then that means of those women who cheat, the thought pattern is such that they're likely to reoccur. (Or at least, more likely than the general population, given their propensity.) I recently saw a study that female rats continue to have sex with the prefrontal cortex removed. (in other words, logic is overridden for a period of time. In a way this process makes them automaton like during the cheating. Cause and effect are switched off. Humans arent so simple, im just relating this study to female cheating specifically. It also lends credence to cheating females not using protection. In other words there's no cause and effect, right and wrong involved. Just going through the motions.) 

In addition it means that a woman who ends up cheating, can swear on everything that she wont. And she'd pass a poly because she'd believe it. Or after she cheats she'll swear "that's all! never again!" and mean it. When it comes time for the actual cheating, that switch gets flicked again, turning off reason for a period of time (from minutes to years of the "fog")

However since many women do not cheat, in those that do I think they're incapable of stopping themselves without therapy and/or a severe life altering event. In other words, it's not a built in flaw, but a developed one. 

That isn't a surprise since it matches the patterns of BPD and narcissistic disorders, which I think most cheaters have. We all call it entitlement though. These disorders cause them to deny the very treatment they need. ("I don't have a problem, you just weren't giving me what i need!")

I'm not trying to derail the thread, just giving my thoughts on the subject (which may all be Bullcrap) 

My .02 on all this for now.


----------



## CEL

Okay here is my 2 cents. People are not rats. People change all the time they change life long patterns all the time as well. Cheating is by its nature changing a long time pattern. Your wife had a pattern of faithfulness far longer than she had a pattern of being a cheater. By cheating she changed a long held pattern. 

I get that people want a logical reason why others cheat. I also get that it makes a good black and white when we can label those who cheat as cheaters eternally. The plain fact is that life is not black and white instead it is a gray sea where what you see is not always what you get. I don't have any answers for why people cheat or if they will repeat. What I don know is that people LEARN from pain when it is inflicted on them and when they inflict it on themselves. When I was young I burned my finger on a stove from that I learned not to touch stoves. Now would I have learned that lesson any better if I had burned my entire upper body on the stove? No but I most definitively would of taken that experience and developed some serious fear from it.


----------



## awake1

CEL said:


> Okay here is my 2 cents. People are not rats. People change all the time they change life long patterns all the time as well. Cheating is by its nature changing a long time pattern. Your wife had a pattern of faithfulness far longer than she had a pattern of being a cheater. By cheating she changed a long held pattern.
> 
> I get that people want a logical reason why others cheat. I also get that it makes a good black and white when we can label those who cheat as cheaters eternally. The plain fact is that life is not black and white instead it is a gray sea where what you see is not always what you get. I don't have any answers for why people cheat or if they will repeat. What I don know is that people LEARN from pain when it is inflicted on them and when they inflict it on themselves. When I was young I burned my finger on a stove from that I learned not to touch stoves. Now would I have learned that lesson any better if I had burned my entire upper body on the stove? No but I most definitively would of taken that experience and developed some serious fear from it.


Very true. People are more complex than lab animals. I think it's a fascinating subject though. Even so it doesn't really change the situation for me and the op.


----------



## Rookie4

LostViking said:


> Yeah I just went back through Awake's thread and I was reminded that just a couple months back when you had ankle surgery your husband played nursemaid for you, seeing to your every need, and even during that time you were in daily contact with online partners .
> 
> That is pretty damn cold Foreversorry.
> 
> Even by TAM standards that stunt right there is enough to make most people here hate your guts. How have you explained your state of mind to Awake that would have caused you to behave with such utter disregard for a man who was basically being your manservant b!tch?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dude, you should probably cool down a bit. You might get the ban-hammer if you continue with this line of talk. Just Sayin.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> But once you've “won" and Awake decides to R what happens then? You've already shown with actions that you very easily relapse into cheater mode. What assurance can you give to Awake that once he's given you his recommitment that you won't betray him again?


Bfree, you know that there are no iron-clad guarantees. If Foreversorry continues to improve herself, and walk the walk of a good wife, that is all anybody can hope for. There has never been a "sure thing" marriage. All have the potential to fail.


----------



## Rookie4

LostViking said:


> I have an idea for a boundary. Does your list include this?
> 
> No male friends or acquaintances outside the family. None.
> 
> No girls night out, no going to any social scenes without your husband present. Ever.
> 
> No toxic friends. None. If your husband dislikes or disapproves of a female friend you are hanging out with, she is gone yesterday. No questions asked.
> 
> While in public or outside the home you conduct yourself as Ms. Awake. There should be no question in anyone's mind that you are a married woman. In public you dress modestly except when you are stepping out with Awake. You dress sexy for no one but him. At home you are Awake's wife, friend, coparent, teammate, companion, confidant, and ally. In the bedroom you are his lover, his slvt, his wh0re.....
> 
> Outside the home you are a nun.
> 
> Think you can handle that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dude, I say again, as a word of warning, you should probably cool it with the invective. Just changing a letter in a word doesn't mean that the Mods will look kindly on it. A poster got banned last week for just calling someone a loser. As a former victim of the hammer I suggest you give it some thought.


----------



## Rookie4

LongWalk said:


> Weightlifter asked some rather direct questions, which I don't think you answered. So, I am going to take stab at it.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I could cover up the EA if I was careful. That was easy and when he didn't notice the EA after a few days, I began think PA could also be hidden. When I had decided to PA, he didn't notice, so I decided to go for PA as soon as the OM suggested it.
> 
> 
> 
> I was just excited by everything and hope the OM would like me. I hoped I would be good enough for him.
> 
> 
> I drove as fast as could and maybe a little over the speed limit. It felt good hurrying like that.
> 
> 
> In some ways he was different than I expected, in other ways he was better. But overall he was good enough and I wanted to try him. I wanted him to like me
> 
> 
> We hurried the first time.
> 
> 
> We didn't hang our clothes up carefully.
> 
> 
> That's all I was thinking about.
> 
> f) 2 minutes into coitus.
> I didn't want it to end
> 
> My questions:
> 
> 1) Maybe the sex was great, maybe it wasn't. If you say it wasn't, it sounds like a lie, right? If you admit it was really pleasurable, Awake will be more likely to divorce you, or not?
> 
> 2) Awake was a virgin when you married him. Did you look down upon him for this? I think you did.
> 
> 3) Would you like Awake to experience sex with another woman if you knew that he would still be yours afterwards?


Dude, you are being antagonistic. You aren't a lawyer and this isn't an inquisition.


----------



## Rookie4

alte Dame said:


> I was being careful with my wording, Foreversorry. For me, as with many people & perhaps even your H, the loss of respect that results from the relentless disrespectful treatment that you dished out is a permanent condition. In other words, the balance gets tipped and there isn't any going back or recovering.


I disagree. Awake and Foreversorry, If you know my story, you know that it is possible to build a new relationship.


----------



## warlock07

Just saying this. If you are a former WS looking to reconcile and if you read TAM for a couple of weeks, you can possible come up with the type of responses TAM loves and approves to hear without actually meaning them. Problem is, we wouldn't know if it is just more manipulation or if that is genuine remorse. All we read is text on the screen.


----------



## Rookie4

nuclearnightmare said:


> Foreversorry:
> my opinion/advice is as follows -
> 
> You are not marriage material; your track record with your current husband makes this clear. Your ingrained compulsions cannot be held at bay for more than finite intervals. You and your husband should follow through with divorce. Once you get yourself 'single' again - standard IC will NOT be sufficient to address your character issues in any significant way. A much more hard-nosed regime of cognitive and behavioral therapy might help you. Perhaps with a good therapist and a few years of hard work you could end up in a different place, emotionally - ready to consider a real marriage commitment with someone.
> 
> In the meantime, your current husband will have a much better chance of building a stable marriage with someone else. Most women do not cheat on their husbands; the most credible statistics put the rate at not higher than 20%. So the odds are much better for him without you than with you.
> 
> None of this means that your role as a mother should end or cannot be strengthened, of course.


I don't agree with this at all. There is no "one size fits all" cheaters script, and neither is there a "one size fits all" script for recovery. And your opinions about the OP's issues are just that, your opinions.


----------



## Rookie4

Good point, Warlock. I guess some more pertinent questions to ask Awake is, what has Foreversorry DONE since D-day to provide concrete proof of her intentions? What changes has she started to make in her behavior?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Trying to save what's left*



Rookie4 said:


> Bfree, you know that there are no iron-clad guarantees. If Foreversorry continues to improve herself, and walk the walk of a good wife, that is all anybody can hope for. There has never been a "sure thing" marriage. All have the potential to fail.


No I know that. I was giving her an opportunity to address a question I already know her husband is asking.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Rookie4 said:


> I don't agree with this at all. There is no "one size fits all" cheaters script, and neither is there a "one size fits all" script for recovery. And your opinions about the OP's issues are just that, your opinions.


Sorry Rookie. Awake1 has a lot more insight on her than I do. He is talking about personality disorder. She fits that mold perfectly. He can love her, but she is incapable of returning that love. Not to him, not to anyone.


----------



## awake1

Rookie4 said:


> Good point, Warlock. I guess some more pertinent questions to ask Awake is, what has Foreversorry DONE since D-day to provide concrete proof of her intentions? What changes has she started to make in her behavior?


You've asked since DDay:

For the past 2 months she's complied with everything and has definitely changed her mood and behavior. She's been doing well. 

Now the bad stuff has come before those last 2 months:

the first 4-5 months of 2013 I had seen changes in overall attitude in a positive way. She was also an open book (phone/social networking email etc.). She agreed to a polygraph and signed a post nup. She agreed to no guy friends, GNOs. 

Now all this was agreed to in january, (and again at various times) well before I knew the full extent of the cheating. Actually it was agreed to almost as a kneejerk reaction. 

But when it came time to live up to these promises, most were denied for a time. For example, when it came time to sign the post nuptial agreement she refused. When it became obvious if she did not I would leave, she relented (after days of "please baby trust me" type stuff.) 

That became the pattern probably a dozen times. Make a promise, break the promise, then she would relent when i wouldn't budge. to paraphrase her one time: "im not doing it. you just have to trust me. If that means divorce I cant help it" In a strange way it was sort of a test or game of chicken. I didn't budge an inch. 


So yes she's made some positive changes, grudgingly I think. The entire dynamic of the relationship has changed from me giving in to me no longer compromising. (unless it's common sense.) I saw the pattern of her promise, then a broken promise, then i give another chance. 

I think these positive changes in her were brought about more by realizing it's all different now, and forever. I am no longer a doormat (enabler) 

Had that not changed, nothing else would.


----------



## bfree

awake1 said:


> You've asked since DDay:
> 
> For the past 2 months she's complied with everything and has definitely changed her mood and behavior. She's been doing well.
> 
> Now the bad stuff has come before those last 2 months:
> 
> the first 4-5 months of 2013 I had seen changes in overall attitude in a positive way. She was also an open book (phone/social networking email etc.). She agreed to a polygraph and signed a post nup. She agreed to no guy friends, GNOs.
> 
> Now all this was agreed to in january, (and again at various times) well before I knew the full extent of the cheating. Actually it was agreed to almost as a kneejerk reaction.
> 
> But when it came time to live up to these promises, most were denied for a time. For example, when it came time to sign the post nuptial agreement she refused. When it became obvious if she did not I would leave, she relented (after days of "please baby trust me" type stuff.)
> 
> That became the pattern probably a dozen times. Make a promise, break the promise, then she would relent when i wouldn't budge. to paraphrase her one time: "im not doing it. you just have to trust me. If that means divorce I cant help it" In a strange way it was sort of a test or game of chicken. I didn't budge an inch.
> 
> 
> So yes she's made some positive changes, grudgingly I think. The entire dynamic of the relationship has changed from me giving in to me no longer compromising. (unless it's common sense.) I saw the pattern of her promise, then a broken promise, then i give another chance.
> 
> I think these positive changes in her were brought about more by realizing it's all different now, and forever. I am no longer a doormat (enabler)
> 
> Had that not changed, nothing else would.


And the million dollar question. Having said all that do you in your heart and your mind feel that these changes in her are permanent or do you honestly feel that given the chance and an excuse she would backslide?


----------



## awake1

nuclearnightmare said:


> Sorry Rookie. Awake1 has a lot more insight on her than I do. He is talking about personality disorder. She fits that mold perfectly. He can love her, but she is incapable of returning that love. Not to him, not to anyone.


I think it's possible there's some bpd tendencies there. I really am not sure. I'm not a pro so my opinion in this is worthless. I do however feel like I see genuine remorse and regret. She seems to earnestly want to change. (that doesn't mean we'll be together, but I think she does _want_ to change.)


----------



## LostViking

Where is she anyway? Damn Awake....look what you did: you went and thread jacked your own wife.

Meanie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## awake1

bfree said:


> And the million dollar question. Having said all that do you in your heart and your mind feel that these changes in her are permanent or do you honestly feel that given the chance and an excuse she would backslide?


I think what matters more is that _I_ don't backslide. I can't control others behavior but I cant be that same person ever again. What she does really doesn't matter so long as I do not become her doormat again. (or anyones) Whether she backslides or not, I need to maintain the tools to end it. So long as that's done i'm in good shape in any relationship.

To answer your question though, yes. She has a solid history of testing boundaries and breaking them. This has gone on at least since I met her. While it can change, i am not hopeful. 

Maybe this is a wake up call. Or maybe it's just a temporary pause on testing the boundaries of relationships.


----------



## awake1

LostViking said:


> Where is she anyway? Damn Awake....look what you did: you went and thread jacked your own wife.
> 
> Meanie.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's at her parents having dinner with the kids. (No tam it's not the OMs house.) 

I'll stop posting in it lol


----------



## bryanp

Awake,

From what you have written the Post Nup is not valid. The courts have ruled time and again that any pre-nup or post-nup signed under duress is not valid. From what you have written any good lawyer representing her would show that it was signed under duress of a threat from you divorcing her.


----------



## awake1

bryanp said:


> Awake,
> 
> From what you have written the Post Nup is not valid. The courts have ruled time and again that any pre-nup or post-nup signed under duress is not valid. From what you have written any good lawyer representing her would show that it was signed under duress of a threat from you divorcing her.


I'm not the monopoly guy so I wasnt concerned about the validity of the post nuptial agreement. It was the mere act of signing it. 

The divorce papers were also signed, and the distribution of everything was already done. (this was a few months ago. I just never got around to finishing the filing of them)

We're going to sign a cohabitation agreement, and i will make sure it's iron clad, because on this one I do care that it will stand up if challenged. 

Okay i'm done thread jacking!


----------



## Chris989

awake1 said:


> I'm not the monopoly guy so I wasnt concerned about the validity of the post nuptial agreement. It was the mere act of signing it.
> 
> The divorce papers were also signed, and the distribution of everything was already done. (this was a few months ago. I just never got around to finishing the filing of them)
> 
> We're going to sign a cohabitation agreement, and i will make sure it's iron clad, because on this one I do care that it will stand up if challenged.


You probably know this, but make sure she gets independent legal advice.


----------



## Lovemytruck

awake1 said:


> I think what matters more is that _I_ don't backslide. I can't control others behavior but I cant be that same person ever again. What she does really doesn't matter so long as I do not become her doormat again. (or anyones) Whether she backslides or not, I need to maintain the tools to end it. So long as that's done i'm in good shape in any relationship.
> 
> To answer your question though, yes. She has a solid history of testing boundaries and breaking them. This has gone on at least since I met her. While it can change, i am not hopeful.
> 
> Maybe this is a wake up call. Or maybe it's just a temporary pause on testing the boundaries of relationships.


Your perspective is amazingly clear. It is difficult knowing that your spouse can't make her own bounderies for her own good.

Your tone indicates that you are tired of being her sheepdog. Maybe that is why she started this thread? She is finally realizing that her choices have consequences?

Liked your theory about cheaters. Maybe she did learn not to do it again. Nobody knows.

For me the betrayal and the uncertainty were too much. Especially from a woman that had BPD traits. Some things can't be fixed. 

I guess it just comes down to playing the odds. What makes us more comfortable; D or R. Both are difficult and both have rewards.

Good luck. It inspires us to see how well you are coping with a tough situation. I am sure whatever you decide, it will be successful.


----------



## Foreversorry

LostViking said:


> Where is she anyway? Damn Awake....look what you did: you went and thread jacked your own wife.
> 
> Meanie.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



LOL no worries, Im still here, I havent been 'scared off' and Awake didnt thread jack me. 



awake1 said:


> She's at her parents having dinner with the kids. (No tam it's not the OMs house.)
> 
> *I'll stop posting in it lol*


no no NO dont stop posting in it!  I rather like seeing your input on things anyways, you know that!


----------



## Foreversorry

I screwed up A LOT in the months following DDay. The TT, the broken promises, and all that has done more damage than the actual cheating. There was no excuse for doing those things, even worse that it HURT Awake even more. The changes I have made in the last 2 months are totally different than the things I had done in the few months prior to that. As Awake as told me, 'What is TWO months compaired to the last 8 years?" and he is right..2 months of 'change' into someone I always SHOULD have been is nothing compaired to what was. All of this did open my eyes to a lot of things. I wasnt aware of how I was treating him all those years. I was blind to the fact that he was a 'doormat'. Was I happy that he did all he could to make sure that *I* had whatever I wanted? Sure, who wouldnt be. But in that, I wasnt thinking about what *I* should have been doing to make HIM happy. I assumed that because I was happy, he was happy. 

Our biggest issue was communication. Now, communication is (I think) one of our strongest points now. We talk now more in the last few months more than we did in the 12 years we have been together. And I LOVE that. I may need to open up a bit more sometimes with my feelings on certain things, but atm thats hard because I am the WS. I am the one who hurt the one person I should have never betrayed. So to a point, I don't think I have a RIGHT to certain feelings. If he says something that hurts, what right do I have, as the betrayer, to voice that hurt? There are certain things that have been put in place that no, I do not agree with, but being that its something he feels the need for to help HIM get through this, I need to put my selfish feelings aside and deal with it in order to help him, which I guess in turn, helps US. Its an every day process for me becoming the person I need to be. For everyone. Its something that I am actively working on every min of every day. I am aware of some of the things I used to do and I find myself correcting those behaviors. In time, that will stick. 

I can tell you all that I will not go back to the way that I was. The way I treated him. Hell, the way I treated MYSELF. But all you guys will ever 'hear' are my words. Awake will SEE for himself that this is a permanent change. He will be rewarded for giving me this chance and he will not be let down. When I am able to get into IC, Im actually rather excited about it, because while I have an idea of where some of my..issues..stem from, I personally would like more input on them, and to see how I can continue fixing what is wrong. 

All that said, I will say that coming here and posting is VERY VERY sobering. While I know the extent of what I did, and the extent that I have hurt Awake, its a lot different when you see how other people respond to it. People who don't know us. People who have been in the same shoes at one point or another. Some of the things have made me cringe a little while reading it, some have made me tear up, some have made me flat out sob. I didn't come here looking for "oh if you do THIS, he will possibly stick around". I came here expecting 2x4's and people who would be HONEST with me. Things that would help me understand more about all of this. For that, I thank every single one of you who have posted..


----------



## alte Dame

Foreversorry said:


> But in that, I wasnt thinking about what *I* should have been doing to make HIM happy. I assumed that because I was happy, he was happy.


This is what is so awful to me. You assumed that it was his pleasure and joy to make you happy. And the things he did to accomplish this made you happy. This only went in one direction, though. You never moved out of yourself enough to seek your own happiness from the things that you could do to make him happy. You weren't seeing your BH three-dimensionally and in that you failed to follow the golden rule, which is to treat others the way you want to be treated. Showing others our love can be joyful, but you took his love and gave nothing of value in return.

You say you have wept with your epiphanies re your treatment of Awake. I think you should weep about such careless treatment of someone you supposedly love.


----------



## sandc

I'm curious as to whether you will keep working towards trying to win Awake's heart back after he divorces you or are you going to say "what's the point, we're divorced now?"


----------



## Foreversorry

I have actually. In our hours-long conversations, we've talked about things pre-affair and general relationship things. The repairs and changes are not only to affair proof our relationship from here on out, its EVERYTHING that I have done wrong. The way I treated him, the way I parented our children, as well as I treated myself and everyone around me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Foreversorry

Doesn't matter if we are married, or divorced and in an exclusive relationship. Awake is the man I want to make happy again and the an I want to spend my life with. Just because there wouldn't be a paper saying that we are Mr and Mrs does not mean that I can't make him my number one and show him how lucky I feel to have him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sandc

Excellent.


----------



## Jeffery

Foreversorry said:


> D*oesn't matter if we are married, or divorced and in an exclusive relationship*. Awake is the man I want to make happy again and the an I want to spend my life with. Just because there wouldn't be a paper saying that we are Mr and Mrs does not mean that I can't make him my number one and show him how lucky I feel to have him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So if you think your husband is done then you wont feel like you should be faithful? is this what happened two months ago? Yes it is.

No you are not going to stay faithfull for an extended amount of time.


----------



## Foreversorry

What does that have to do with whether or not we are married or divorced and exclusive? That was a choice I made in very poor judgment, whether we were together or not. Yes I will be staying faithful to Awake. Its a shame that some people think people can't change. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jnj express

SIX other men----why should anyone, anywhere think you won't cheat again---and after each one you BASICALLY STATED---I am done cheating, I won't hurt you any more----and what do you do, you cheat again

One simple question WHY SHOULD ANYONE THINK THAT THIS TIME IT WILL BE DIFFERENT

If your H. does give a SEVENTH CHANCE---what happens three/four/five yrs from now when you are bored----actually what happens the FIRST TIME YOU HAVE A DISAGREEMENT---for that's part of mge-----are you gonna justify to yourself---my H, doesn't love me/we are disconnecting/this mge is TO MUCH HARD WORK----WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO--- --Are you REALLY gonna stay faithful thru the hard/tuff times???????


----------



## Rookie4

awake1 said:


> You've asked since DDay:
> 
> For the past 2 months she's complied with everything and has definitely changed her mood and behavior. She's been doing well.
> 
> Now the bad stuff has come before those last 2 months:
> 
> the first 4-5 months of 2013 I had seen changes in overall attitude in a positive way. She was also an open book (phone/social networking email etc.). She agreed to a polygraph and signed a post nup. She agreed to no guy friends, GNOs.
> 
> Now all this was agreed to in january, (and again at various times) well before I knew the full extent of the cheating. Actually it was agreed to almost as a kneejerk reaction.
> 
> But when it came time to live up to these promises, most were denied for a time. For example, when it came time to sign the post nuptial agreement she refused. When it became obvious if she did not I would leave, she relented (after days of "please baby trust me" type stuff.)
> 
> That became the pattern probably a dozen times. Make a promise, break the promise, then she would relent when i wouldn't budge. to paraphrase her one time: "im not doing it. you just have to trust me. If that means divorce I cant help it" In a strange way it was sort of a test or game of chicken. I didn't budge an inch.
> 
> 
> So yes she's made some positive changes, grudgingly I think. The entire dynamic of the relationship has changed from me giving in to me no longer compromising. (unless it's common sense.) I saw the pattern of her promise, then a broken promise, then i give another chance.
> 
> I think these positive changes in her were brought about more by realizing it's all different now, and forever. I am no longer a doormat (enabler)
> 
> Had that not changed, nothing else would.


After reading this, I can understand why you question her sincerity. My ex-wife would have crawled through broken glass just for the chance to say hello to me (she still would) and she would have done it willingly and cheerfully. For you to have to continually pressuring her to fulfill her promises doesn't bode well for your R. If she is fully on board with R, she needs to be much more pro-active in proving herself.


----------



## Foreversorry

Rookie4 said:


> After reading this, I can understand why you question her sincerity. My ex-wife would have crawled through broken glass just for the chance to say hello to me (she still would) and she would have done it willingly and cheerfully. For you to have to continually pressuring her to fulfill her promises doesn't bode well for your R. *If she is fully on board with R, she needs to be much more pro-active in proving herself.*


And I have been and will continue to be. 
As to who WOULDNT think that I would do it again in 5 or whatever years? I have said before I dont blame someone, anyone, everyone for thinking that. Hell, I would if roles were reversed. What I was saying is that people DO change. Sometimes it takes one small mistake to cause someone to see their destructive ways, or sometimes it takes a massive train wreck. But it IS possible if that person truely WANTS to change and works at it.


----------



## Jeffery

Yes people do change but not as often as one might thing.

One study i read says that a WW is 80 percent likely to cheat again in the future even when they are remorseful vs the general female population where only about 20-25 Percent will cheat on the husband sometime in their marriage. it has been suggested as a possible reason is that at the time the WW IS having some kind of remorseful feelings. but once they felt the desire for some one else they ignored boundaries, continued to have fantasizes about cheating . I know some here on Tam can quote this study word for word so perhaps some one else might be able to give a more informed opinion.

You know what you felt at the time, how exciting it all was. It is like a drug 
addict. 
Don't forget even if you change into the most wonderful wife in the world. the fact that you shared EVERYTHING with someone else just may be beyond repair.


----------



## LostViking

Unlike many of the posters here I am not so jaundiced to where I do not believe a person can change if they want to. 

But you have to really want it FS. You have to want it and then work it every day for the rest of your life.

I'm not talking about simply adjusting your behaviors to satisfy Awake1. If the only reason you are rehabilitating yourself is to make a show for your husband so he won't dismantle your comfortable world, then you are doomed to fail and revert back to your old selfish ways. 

You need to change for YOU first. Lets face it, up until a couple of months ago your behavior was abhorrent....by any standard of society. Not only as a wife, but as a mother and as a person in general. You were rude, entitled, obnoxious and abusive... to not only your husband but to your marriage and, by default, your children also. 

Only you can go back through your memories and identify where you began to go bad. Being spoiled growing up, lack of discipline from your parents, hanging out with the wrong set of girls while a teen, reading feminist literature, straying from your faith or moral foundations, watching too much Oprah....whatever it was you need to identify it and deal with the causes. A good counselor can help. But it's ultimately up to you. 

I don't believe you are fundamentally evil, nor do I believe you suffer from BPD (a catch-all fallback diagnosis for every bad female behavior, that is very popular in this forum, and which I think is a load of bunk) but I do believe somewhere along the line you allowed yourself to lapse into a mindset of entitlement... the thinking that your husband and everyone in your life owes you something because you are so...well... wonderfully you. 

Well you need to kill this mindset. Let me tell you a little secret....

You don't *deserve* anything for nothing. 

None of us do. 

I believe we are on this earth to help each other along, and along that kum-by-ya way, we should treat others as we wish to be treated. It really is that simple.


----------



## Foreversorry

Jeffery said:


> Yes people do change but not as often as one might thing.
> 
> One study i read says that a WW is 80 percent likely to cheat again in the future even when they are remorseful vs the general female population where only about 20-25 Percent will cheat on the husband sometime in their marriage. it has been suggested as a possible reason is that at the time the WW IS having some kind of remorseful feelings. but once they felt the desire for some one else they ignored boundaries, continued to have fantasizes about cheating . I know some here on Tam can quote this study word for word so perhaps some one else might be able to give a more informed opinion.
> 
> You know what you felt at the time, how exciting it all was. It is like a drug
> addict.
> *Don't forget even if you change into the most wonderful wife in the world. the fact that you shared EVERYTHING with someone else just may be beyond repair.*



As well as the fact that I had done so much damage in the months following. He has forgiven me for my cheating, but not for the things I had put him through.


----------



## Jeffery

Foreversorry said:


> And I have been and will continue to be.
> As to who WOULDNT think that *I would do it again in 5 or whatever years?* I have said before I dont blame someone, anyone, everyone for thinking that. Hell, I would if roles were reversed. What I was saying is that people DO change. Sometimes it takes one small mistake to cause someone to see their destructive ways, or sometimes it takes a massive train wreck. *But it IS possible if that person truely WANTS to change and works at it*.


two months ago it was about a day.

Yes but is very rare.

Cheating has not only changed your husband, forever but it changes the cheater in a most fundamental way, perhaps this is part of the reason that WS have such a bad track record in future faithfulness it like it changes the brain chemistry forever. an example might be like when a drug addict does become sober his brain still continues to suffer the bad side effects for the rest of his life, emotional and physical


----------



## 2asdf2

Foreversorry said:


> As well as the fact that I had done so much damage in the months following. He has forgiven me for my cheating, but not for the things I had put him through.


I was going to "like" your post, but I really mean that I agree with Awake. What you put him through is more cruel than the sexual infidelity itself.

Cold blooded and calculated. 

It gives me chills.


----------



## LostViking

2asdf2 said:


> I was going to "like" your post, but I really mean that I agree with Awake. What you put him through is more cruel than the sexual infidelity itself.
> 
> Cold blooded and calculated.
> 
> It gives me chills.


And so how do you think she should go forward and correct this behavior?


----------



## Foreversorry

LostViking said:


> But you have to really want it FS. You have to want it and then work it every day for the rest of your life.
> Yes, its a LIFETIME thing. Its not make changes and assume they will stick. Its every day. Every min of every day.
> 
> I'm not talking about simply adjusting your behaviors to satisfy Awake1. If the only reason you are rehabilitating yourself is to make a show for your husband so he won't dismantle your comfortable world, then you are doomed to fail and revert back to your old selfish ways.
> 
> You need to change for YOU first. Lets face it, up until a couple of months ago your behavior was abhorrent....by any standard of society. Not only as a wife, but as a mother and as a person in general. You were rude, entitled, obnoxious and abusive... to not only your husband but to your marriage and, by default, your children also.
> Its all connected. I change for myself which in turn affects Awake, the kids, as well as everyone around me.
> 
> Only you can go back through your memories and identify where you began to go bad. Being spoiled growing up, lack of discipline from your parents, hanging out with the wrong set of girls while a teen, reading feminist literature, straying from your faith or moral foundations, watching too much Oprah....whatever it was you need to identify it and deal with the causes. A good counselor can help. But it's ultimately up to you.
> There actually is a small portion of my childhood that I have very very VERY little memory of, and while I do know the reason for that, thats ALL I know. I want to know exactly WHY I blocked that out, and exactly WHAT I had blocked out.
> 
> 
> I don't believe you are fundamentally evil, nor do I believe you suffer from BPD (a catch-all fallback diagnosis for every bad female behavior, that is very popular in this forum, and which I think is a load of bunk) but I do believe somewhere along the line you allowed yourself to lapse into a mindset of entitlement... the thinking that your husband and everyone in your life owes you something because you are so...well... wonderfully you.\
> The odd thing that I think about in this is that while I agree with the entitlement thing, and all that, it wasnt because I feel like I was so 'wonderfully me'. Quite the opposite actually. I never thought I was oh so wonderful, I thought Im worthless, I deserve nothing good, but I want what I want and if I *****, whine, complain, beg, whatever, then I 'earned' it the only way I knew how.
> 
> Well you need to kill this mindset. Let me tell you a little secret....
> 
> You don't *deserve* anything for nothing.
> 
> None of us do.
> 
> I believe we are on this earth to help each other along, and along that kum-by-ya way, we should treat others as we wish to be treated. It really is that simple.


----------



## LostViking

> The odd thing that I think about in this is that while I agree with the entitlement thing, and all that, it wasnt because I feel like I was so 'wonderfully me'. Quite the opposite actually. I never thought I was oh so wonderful,* I thought Im worthless, I deserve nothing good,* but I want what I want and if I *****, whine, complain, beg, whatever, then I 'earned' it the only way I knew how.


Okay, then this is a starting point. This is what you need to focus on in your IC. 

I just hope Awake1 has the patience and endurance to wait around for you to fix yourself. It sounds to me like he's close to the end of this footrace. Hope that's not the case.


----------



## Rookie4

Foreversorry said:


> And I have been and will continue to be.
> As to who WOULDNT think that I would do it again in 5 or whatever years? I have said before I dont blame someone, anyone, everyone for thinking that. Hell, I would if roles were reversed. What I was saying is that people DO change. Sometimes it takes one small mistake to cause someone to see their destructive ways, or sometimes it takes a massive train wreck. But it IS possible if that person truely WANTS to change and works at it.


Possibly so, but why do you resist Awakes needs? why does he feel that you don't fulfill your promises without being coerced or cajoled into doing so?


----------



## Foreversorry

LostViking said:


> Okay, then this is a starting point. This is what you need to focus on in your IC.
> 
> *I just hope Awake1 has the patience and endurance to wait around for you to fix yourself.* It sounds to me like he's close to the end of this footrace. Hope that's not the case.


You and me both..


----------



## Rookie4

LostViking said:


> Unlike many of the posters here I am not so jaundiced to where I do not believe a person can change if they want to.
> 
> But you have to really want it FS. You have to want it and then work it every day for the rest of your life.
> 
> I'm not talking about simply adjusting your behaviors to satisfy Awake1. If the only reason you are rehabilitating yourself is to make a show for your husband so he won't dismantle your comfortable world, then you are doomed to fail and revert back to your old selfish ways.
> 
> You need to change for YOU first. Lets face it, up until a couple of months ago your behavior was abhorrent....by any standard of society. Not only as a wife, but as a mother and as a person in general. You were rude, entitled, obnoxious and abusive... to not only your husband but to your marriage and, by default, your children also.
> 
> Only you can go back through your memories and identify where you began to go bad. Being spoiled growing up, lack of discipline from your parents, hanging out with the wrong set of girls while a teen, reading feminist literature, straying from your faith or moral foundations, watching too much Oprah....whatever it was you need to identify it and deal with the causes. A good counselor can help. But it's ultimately up to you.
> 
> I don't believe you are fundamentally evil, nor do I believe you suffer from BPD (a catch-all fallback diagnosis for every bad female behavior, that is very popular in this forum, and which I think is a load of bunk) but I do believe somewhere along the line you allowed yourself to lapse into a mindset of entitlement... the thinking that your husband and everyone in your life owes you something because you are so...well... wonderfully you.
> 
> Well you need to kill this mindset. Let me tell you a little secret....
> 
> You don't *deserve* anything for nothing.
> 
> None of us do.
> 
> I believe we are on this earth to help each other along, and along that kum-by-ya way, we should treat others as we wish to be treated. It really is that simple.


LOL! Feminist Literature?......Oprah? Of all the reasons spouted by posters here on TAM, as explanations for cheating, those are firsts.:scratchhead: I don't know how your mind works , Viking, but it sure is entertaining. Most of your post is pretty good and addresses the OP's issues, but I'm betting that those two examples won't fly.


----------



## Robsia

Jeffery said:


> Yes people do change but not as often as one might thing.
> 
> One study i read says that a WW is 80 percent likely to cheat again in the future even when they are remorseful vs the general female population where only about 20-25 Percent will cheat on the husband sometime in their marriage. it has been suggested as a possible reason is that at the time the WW IS having some kind of remorseful feelings. but once they felt the desire for some one else they ignored boundaries, continued to have fantasizes about cheating . I know some here on Tam can quote this study word for word so perhaps some one else might be able to give a more informed opinion.
> 
> You know what you felt at the time, how exciting it all was. It is like a drug
> addict.
> Don't forget even if you change into the most wonderful wife in the world. the fact that you shared EVERYTHING with someone else just may be beyond repair.


That's depressing. What about WHs?


----------



## Foreversorry

Rookie4 said:


> Possibly so, but why do you resist Awakes needs? why does he feel that you don't fulfill your promises without being coerced or cajoled into doing so?


Why did I resist? The only thing I can come up with is just what he had pointed out to me so many times after the fact. It was pushing boundries. I was in the selfish mindset that "if he wants this to help heal, why cant he comprimise to this so that *I* can heal as well" Little did I realize at the time that I needed to help HIM heal, he doesnt need to help me heal. Thats all on myself. 
That is also not the way it is now. Im not, and Im not going to, push anything. What he needs for me to help him, he gets. One of the things is also communication. He needs to hear how I feel in reguards to everything. Which I am getting better at.


----------



## Foreversorry

Rookie4 said:


> LOL! Feminist Literature?......Oprah? Of all the reasons spouted by posters here on TAM, as explanations for cheating, those are firsts.:scratchhead: I don't know how your mind works , Viking, but it sure is entertaining. Most of your post is pretty good and addresses the OP's issues, but I'm betting that those two examples won't fly.


Nah, I wouldnt 'blame' Oprah or Feminist Literature..LOL


----------



## Chris989

Whatever the rights or wrongs, I admire Foreversorry for posting here. It's something my ex wife (still living together) has point blank refused to do and I know it would have meant the world to me had she had the courage to ask how to fix things.

You see, without this place I wouldn't have had a hope in so many ways so, if any place could, or could have, fixed whatever it is/was we have left then this might have done it.

To me, the fact that you come here, Forever, is a massive tick in a box. It says you are serious and prepared to face up to things.


----------



## LostViking

Rookie4 said:


> LOL! Feminist Literature?......Oprah? Of all the reasons spouted by posters here on TAM, as explanations for cheating, those are firsts.:scratchhead: I don't know how your mind works , Viking, but it sure is entertaining. Most of your post is pretty good and addresses the OP's issues, but I'm betting that those two examples won't fly.


Think what you want Rookie. But don't discount literature, television and pop culture's influence an a woman's mind and behavior if she gets caught up in that stuff. If you dont think these have an effect on altering the behavior of some women, you are deluding yourself.


----------



## 2asdf2

LostViking said:


> And so how do you think she should go forward and correct this behavior?


I'm at a loss.


----------



## Foreversorry

Chris989 said:


> Whatever the rights or wrongs, I admire Foreversorry for posting here. It's something my ex wife (still living together) has point blank refused to do and I know it would have meant the world to me had she had the courage to ask how to fix things.
> 
> You see, without this place I wouldn't have had a hope in so many ways so, if any place could, or could have, fixed whatever it is/was we have left then this might have done it.
> 
> To me, the fact that you come here, Forever, is a massive tick in a box. It says you are serious and prepared to face up to things.


He had mentioned in brief passing before that maybe I should post here because it had helped him in so many ways. My biggest issue (aside from the OBVIOUS ) is that I turned to NO BODY for help. I did not seek advice on what I should do from anything. Not friends, not family, no one but myself. And looking at the first 4 months, I see how well THAT worked out for me..lol 
I don't know exactly what point it was that made me 'wake up' and REALLY REALLY fight for him. I do know it was when I was in the hospital the second time, Me feeling like he really WAS done at that time def has something to do with it, but I also think there was something else. Maybe I won't fully figure out EVERYTHING that lead me there, I dont know.

Coming here has been a help. It feels good to get everything out and hear things people have to say. Has it helped Awake and I? Im not sure, but it hasnt HURT thats for sure.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Trying to save what's left*



LostViking said:


> Unlike many of the posters here I am not so jaundiced to where I do not believe a person can change if they want to.
> 
> But you have to really want it FS. You have to want it and then work it every day for the rest of your life.
> 
> I'm not talking about simply adjusting your behaviors to satisfy Awake1. If the only reason you are rehabilitating yourself is to make a show for your husband so he won't dismantle your comfortable world, then you are doomed to fail and revert back to your old selfish ways.
> 
> You need to change for YOU first. Lets face it, up until a couple of months ago your behavior was abhorrent....by any standard of society. Not only as a wife, but as a mother and as a person in general. You were rude, entitled, obnoxious and abusive... to not only your husband but to your marriage and, by default, your children also.
> 
> Only you can go back through your memories and identify where you began to go bad. Being spoiled growing up, lack of discipline from your parents, hanging out with the wrong set of girls while a teen, reading feminist literature, straying from your faith or moral foundations, watching too much Oprah....whatever it was you need to identify it and deal with the causes. A good counselor can help. But it's ultimately up to you.
> 
> I don't believe you are fundamentally evil, nor do I believe you suffer from BPD (a catch-all fallback diagnosis for every bad female behavior, that is very popular in this forum, and which I think is a load of bunk) but I do believe somewhere along the line you allowed yourself to lapse into a mindset of entitlement... the thinking that your husband and everyone in your life owes you something because you are so...well... wonderfully you.
> 
> Well you need to kill this mindset. Let me tell you a little secret....
> 
> You don't *deserve* anything for nothing.
> 
> None of us do.
> 
> I believe we are on this earth to help each other along, and along that kum-by-ya way, we should treat others as we wish to be treated. It really is that simple.


Excellent post! And by the way watching Oprah can eff you up big time.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

> That became the pattern probably a dozen times. Make a promise, break the promise, then she would relent when i wouldn't budge. to paraphrase her one time: "im not doing it. you just have to trust me. If that means divorce I cant help it" In a strange way it was sort of a test or game of chicken. I didn't budge an inch.


I wonder if you would not have gone through some of this even with out infidelity. By that I mean you standing strong was a change in your relationship - you upset the old dynamic. She needed to test you (subconsciously) to make sure it was true. If she had not cheated, bu you had made this change, you would likely have had her testing boundaries in the same manner, just about different subjects. That does not excuse her or her behavior, but may give you some insight as to at least part of why some of that happened.


----------



## LostViking

bfree said:


> Excellent post! And by the way watching Oprah can eff you up big time.


I included that Oprah line half jokingly by the way... 

She's not a bad gal....just fat.


----------



## Foreversorry

LostViking said:


> I included that Oprah line half jokingly by the way...
> 
> She's not a bad gal....just fat.


Shes not fat, shes fluffy! Squishy? 
Metabolically Challenged!!!!


----------



## LostViking

Foreversorry said:


> Shes not fat, shes fluffy! Squishy?
> Metabolically Challenged!!!!


:rofl:


----------



## Foreversorry

So, just a matter of opinion from you guys..You all obviously know my story..and that its still VERY early on in me trying to fix things..should I feel like a hypocrite for thinking about posting in other threads? Mainly threads started by other WS's. On one hand, I feel like 'dont be an idiot, do these things so you dont end up like me' and on the other hand, i feel like what right do I have to say anything at all when I was the one who betrayed?


----------



## awake1

Tall Average Guy said:


> I wonder if you would not have gone through some of this even with out infidelity. By that I mean you standing strong was a change in your relationship - you upset the old dynamic. She needed to test you (subconsciously) to make sure it was true. If she had not cheated, bu you had made this change, you would likely have had her testing boundaries in the same manner, just about different subjects. That does not excuse her or her behavior, but may give you some insight as to at least part of why some of that happened.


This has occurred to me more than once. My feeling is that that's what it is. 

In the past she'd gotten her way eventually, no matter what it was. Every "stand" i made was temporary and faded after she enough time passed or she wore it down (using begging, pleading, crying etc.)


----------



## Chris989

Foreversorry said:


> So, just a matter of opinion from you guys..You all obviously know my story..and that its still VERY early on in me trying to fix things..should I feel like a hypocrite for thinking about posting in other threads? Mainly threads started by other WS's. On one hand, I feel like 'dont be an idiot, do these things so you dont end up like me' and on the other hand, i feel like what right do I have to say anything at all when I was the one who betrayed?


I think your input will be valuable just like everyone else's. There was one poster who was being a mega, total, complete, hypocrite as she posted advice that differed from what she was doing on a day to day basis.

Even so, she often gave what seemed like good advice.

I think you could help out a lot. It should be your decision, though, not that of other posters...


----------



## LostViking

Foreversorry said:


> So, just a matter of opinion from you guys..You all obviously know my story..and that its still VERY early on in me trying to fix things..should I feel like a hypocrite for thinking about posting in other threads? Mainly threads started by other WS's. On one hand, I feel like 'dont be an idiot, do these things so you dont end up like me' and on the other hand, i feel like what right do I have to say anything at all when I was the one who betrayed?


I don't see an issue. How else are you going to learn and grow if you don't reach out to people going through the same thing? 

Just speak your mind.


----------



## Dyokemm

Foreversorry,

Its not hypocritical at all to post.

In fact I think the more you engage in discussing infidelity, in any situation, the more therapeutic it will be for you.

Discussing situations naturally forces you to think about the situation first. This gives you insight (hopefully) into the issues and problems involved and helps you to grow as a person.

By all means, do so.


----------



## Foreversorry

LostViking said:


> I don't see an issue. How else are you going to learn and grow if you don't reach out to people going through the same thing?
> 
> *Just speak your mind.*


That right there is one of the things that got me into all this in the first place. I put wayyyy too much into worrying what other people think, therefore, I would hold back speaking my mind. Even now..Awake will ask me what I think of a particular thing, and I will hold back for fear of what he would think about my opinion. I am working on that..


----------



## Chris989

Foreversorry said:


> That right there is one of the things that got me into all this in the first place. I put wayyyy too much into worrying what other people think, therefore, I would hold back speaking my mind. Even now..Awake will ask me what I think of a particular thing, and I will hold back for fear of what he would think about my opinion. I am working on that..


With respect, Forever, what "got you into this" was a series of decisions actively made by you. I rather doubt that "not speaking your mind" was part of that. 

After all - had you "spoken your mind" - i.e. "Hey - I'm going to go sleep with another bloke" - then I suspect your situation would not be as it is now.


----------



## CEL

Foreversorry said:


> So, just a matter of opinion from you guys..You all obviously know my story..and that its still VERY early on in me trying to fix things..should I feel like a hypocrite for thinking about posting in other threads? Mainly threads started by other WS's. On one hand, I feel like 'dont be an idiot, do these things so you dont end up like me' and on the other hand, i feel like what right do I have to say anything at all when I was the one who betrayed?



I think you would have some valuable advice and I also think it would help your recovery. This site can be a great support network for people coming off of affairs because the BS are very sensitive to justification and [email protected] I think many WS could benefit from you advice and you could benefit from the dialogue.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Foreversorry said:


> He had mentioned in brief passing before that maybe I should post here because it had helped him in so many ways...............
> 
> .......Coming here has been a help. It feels good to get everything out and hear things people have to say. Has it helped Awake and I? Im not sure, but it hasnt HURT thats for sure.


questions for both you and awake1 - who first brought up the idea of you posting on TAM? was it you or your husband?
was he aware that you would identify him as your BS?
If I was a WS I think I could manage to start a thread and get comments/advice without tying it all back to another poster....if I wanted to.


----------



## bfree

LostViking said:


> Think what you want Rookie. But don't discount literature, television and pop culture's influence an a woman's mind and behavior if she gets caught up in that stuff. If you dont think these have an effect on altering the behavior of some women, you are deluding yourself.


Case in point....50 Shades of Grey


Not to mention Facebook


----------



## LostViking

My first ex-wife, the one who cheated on me before and after we wed, was a huge Harlequin Romance reader. 

She had boxes and boxes of those damn paperback novelettes in our bedroom, and always had a new one in her hand. 

No one can tell me the dreck she was reading didn't have some influence on the poor, misinformed attitude she had about marriage and relationships.


----------



## awake1

nuclearnightmare said:


> questions for both you and awake1 - who first brought up the idea of you posting on TAM? was it you or your husband?


It was mine


nuclearnightmare said:


> was he aware that you would identify him as your BS?
> If I was a WS I think I could manage to start a thread and get comments/advice without tying it all back to another poster....if I wanted to.


She knew about my thread previously, and had read it on occasion.


----------



## TDSC60

Foreversorry said:


> Doesn't matter if we are married, or divorced and in an exclusive relationship. Awake is the man I want to make happy again and the an I want to spend my life with. Just because there wouldn't be a paper saying that we are Mr and Mrs does not mean that I can't make him my number one and show him how lucky I feel to have him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree.

The only time it truly does matter is around April 15.


----------



## awake1

bfree said:


> Case in point....50 Shades of Grey
> 
> 
> Not to mention Facebook


Forever sorry was reading the 50 shades series during the later part of her physical cheating. If her story is accurate, then she probably began reading it before hand. 

I don't think it matters much though. My favorite fictional character is conan, but you don't see me swinging battle axes at people.


----------



## LostViking

awake1 said:


> Forever sorry was reading the 50 shades series during the later part of her physical cheating.


I hate this book. 

I have never read it... but I hate it. 

It has become like the bubonic plague for marriages.


----------



## Foreversorry

nuclearnightmare said:


> who first brought up the idea of you posting on TAM? was it you or your husband?
> *He brought it up in passing a few months ago. It wasnt something we actively talked about me doing.*
> 
> 
> was he aware that you would identify him as your BS?*He wasnt even aware that I had made a post until he had read it.*
> 
> 
> If I was a WS I think I could manage to start a thread and get comments/advice without tying it all back to another poster....if I wanted to.
> *I did not make this post with the intention of 'outing' him as the BS. Hope (I THINK it was Hope) had asked, and I responded. If he had said at ANY point that he didnt want to be 'tied' to me on this board, I would have respected that. *


I personally don't think people knowing that I am his WS hurt anything. If anything, it was a good thing. Everyone is getting views from both of us.


----------



## Foreversorry

awake1 said:


> It was mine
> 
> 
> She knew about my thread previously, and had read it on occasion.


NEVER secretly. I would ask, and he would show me. Which is why hes said that there was nothing in his thread that I wasnt aware of.


----------



## bfree

Foreversorry said:


> And I have been and will continue to be.
> As to who WOULDNT think that I would do it again in 5 or whatever years? I have said before I dont blame someone, anyone, everyone for thinking that. Hell, I would if roles were reversed. What I was saying is that people DO change. *Sometimes it takes one small mistake to cause someone to see their destructive ways*, or sometimes it takes a massive train wreck. But it IS possible if that person truely WANTS to change and works at it.


BTW, before you catch massive amounts of flak I would suggest you don't use the word mistake when talking about infidelity.


----------



## Foreversorry

awake1 said:


> Forever sorry was reading the 50 shades series during the later part of her physical cheating. If her story is accurate, then she probably began reading it before hand.


The series had absolutely nothing to do with my 'mindset' or choices in cheating. Its a BOOK and nothing more. 

Not that its important, but it was after that I had started reading it.


----------



## awake1

LostViking said:


> I hate this book.
> 
> I have never read it... but I hate it.
> 
> It has become like the bubonic plague for marriages.



Foreversorry would retreat to the bedroom and read it last summer and fall, and I would sometimes join her to spend time with her. While there I subjected myself to it. 

I could respect it on a lurid level if it at least used more descriptive sex scenes and used more rough language. (novel porn)


----------



## Foreversorry

bfree said:


> BTW, before you catch massive amounts of flak I would suggest you don't use the word mistake when talking about infidelity.


If you see all that I said, I wasnt refering to mistake in reguards to infidelity. I meant 'mistake' as in something not very serious, and the 'massive train wreck' as more towards infidelity. Does that make sense?


----------



## Foreversorry

awake1 said:


> Foreversorry would retreat to the bedroom and read it last summer and fall, and I would sometimes join her to spend time with her. While there I subjected myself to it.
> 
> I could respect it on a lurid level if it at least used more descriptive sex scenes and used more rough language. (novel porn)


It was very VERY poorly written..lol


----------



## Vanguard

I don't know all the details of the story. But I would simply say this. If you really, really love him, let him go. Divorce and let him find someone else. 

I see time and time again WS's saying "I love him so much, I don't want to lose him." I fear many people fail to see that the second sentiment does not logically follow the first.


----------



## TDSC60

bfree said:


> BTW, before you catch massive amounts of flak I would suggest you don't use the word mistake when talking about infidelity.


A mistake is taking a left instead of a right turn. A mistake is picking up the wrong item at a store.

A mistake is an action taken without understanding that it is wrong or their are undesirable consequences.

Cheating is a choice. A stupid, wrong, insensitive, damaging, painful, life changing, disrespectful choice - but still - a choice - not a mistake.


----------



## bfree

Foreversorry said:


> If you see all that I said, I wasnt refering to mistake in reguards to infidelity. I meant 'mistake' as in something not very serious, and the 'massive train wreck' as more towards infidelity. Does that make sense?


It may make sense but I would suggest for your own benefit to refrain from using the word mistake. Many here will jump down your throat before any explanation is entertained. Just a friendly suggestion.


----------



## Vanguard

LostViking said:


> I hate this book.
> 
> I have never read it... but I hate it.
> 
> It has become like the bubonic plague for marriages.


It truly is hard pornography for women. 

From what I understand it is very poorly written, and it is actually a Twilight Fan Fiction. 

Hard to believe something so stupid can be utilized in a way that leaves marriages riven and desolate.


----------



## TDSC60

bfree said:


> It may make sense but I would suggest for your own benefit to refrain from using the word mistake. Many here will jump down your throat before any explanation is entertained. Just a friendly suggestion.


I did not intend to blast anyone.

But to use the word "mistake" when any aspect of cheating is involved is a real trigger for me.


----------



## Foreversorry

Vanguard said:


> I don't know all the details of the story. But I would simply say this. If you really, really love him, let him go. Divorce and let him find someone else.
> 
> I see time and time again WS's saying "I love him so much, I don't want to lose him." I fear many people fail to see that the second sentiment does not logically follow the first.


Wouldnt that logically mean the same for EVERYONE? Even those who are not going through infidelity or anything else? As in, yes, you love your spouse, but if you really love them THAT much, divorce them and show them just how much you love them.

If I didnt care about him, I wouldnt be fighting for him. I wouldnt care if he stayed or went. Im fighting because I KNOW that I can be faithful to him, and that we can be happy together again. I am fighting to show him that.


----------



## Foreversorry

TDSC60 said:


> A* mistake is taking a left instead of a right turn. A mistake is picking up the wrong item at a store.
> 
> A mistake is an action taken without understanding that it is wrong or their are undesirable consequences.*
> 
> Cheating is a choice. A stupid, wrong, insensitive, damaging, painful, life changing, disrespectful choice - but still - a choice - not a mistake.


I completely agree. THAT is what I meant by 'mistake'. 
I never said that cheating was mearly a 'mistake'.




bfree said:


> It may make sense but I would suggest for your own benefit to refrain from using the word mistake. Many here will jump down your throat before any explanation is entertained. Just a friendly suggestion.


Understood. 




TDSC60 said:


> I did not intend to blast anyone.
> 
> *But to use the word "mistake" when any aspect of cheating is involved is a real trigger for me.*


I'm honestly sorry. I did not intend for it to cause any sort of triggers, or debate or anything like that.


----------



## bfree

TDSC60 said:


> I did not intend to blast anyone.
> 
> But to use the word "mistake" when any aspect of cheating is involved is a real trigger for me.


I know and you are not alone. Hence my warning.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Foreversorry said:


> I personally don't think people knowing that I am his WS hurt anything. If anything, it was a good thing. Everyone is getting views from both of us.



I think you're right. but am wondering...are you a manipulative person? someone with a real talent for it. have people told you that during your life? I can't help but see a WS identifying another poster as their BS as a supreme act of manipulation, much more so than 'advice getting.' Maybe a last ditch effort to turn things in the direction you want them to go (preventing Awake1 from walking). i.e. get a whole buch of usernames he's seen giving him support give you some support too. Some respect, some compliments...........saying what are clearly the right things, keep working them until they come around etc.
i.e., as you've discovered, many of us are less skeptical of you than he is. You could be doing this for the strategic value alone.


----------



## CEL

Personally I do not advocate divorce in this case for a number of reasons. Yes if Awake wants to I think she should go through with it as that is the honorable thing to do. But while he is deciding she should focus and showing him "as she has done" that she loves him and wants to be with him. Forever you are doing good in fact I am going to outline the things I think you are doing well just so that you can seem them individually.

1. You are on this site taking jabs you have learned a lot from this and I really believe that this has helped open you eyes to why you did what you did. You are also seeking support from others who have been where you have been. One of the hardest things is ASKING for help.

2. You are owning up to the fault of your affair 100 percent yes some posts are attacking you but that is because of the medium of communication we are using some words mean different thing to others. I do notice that you correct people on how you meant something instead of just attacking back.

3. You have been honest and open with the questions that have been posed to you by others and this is a big step in being a more honest person overall.

4. Even Awake says that at home you are doing everything right to make him believe you have changed his only criteria being the proof is in the pudding and real changes can only be evaluated over time.

5. You are a very good poster you manage to convey your thoughts very well as well as emotion.

6. You have followed the step necessary to do everything right and I think you are genuinely trying to change. 


You do have a lot to be proud of just because you are not at the finish line does not mean you cannot take some time to be proud of yourself. Yes I said proud many WS do in fact take the easy way out by demonizing the BS, refusing to be remorseful, refusing to make any changes, refusing to take any responsibility, refuse to do NC or just try to rugsweep. So take a moment and realize that what you are doing is GOOD that what you are doing with make you a BETTER person. One of the things you are starting to realize is that when you cheated you did not only cheat on your husband you cheated on your self you betryal was just as great to yourself as to him. You destroyed you self image when it all came down you realized you had become the kind of person that could rip the heart out of those that loved you more than themselves that trusted you more than themselves, this self respect is something you have to work to get back to truly BE the person that both you and your husband deserve. What you are doing will make whoever you end up with a LUCKY person. So this is me saying good job if you keep this up no matter what your story can be an inspiration on how to take responsibility of your choices and make something great from it. Good luck and I hope you continue down this path others have done it and I can honestly say that even if they were WS they are still some of the most inspirational people I have ever met.


----------



## Jeffery

Robsia, i am sorry it is only my dumb opinion and yes Husbands too maybe even more. i meant this only in a general way not to imply that is the case with you and your husband. sorry


----------



## Foreversorry

Again, the only reason I had mentioned Awakes name was because someone asked. I did not say anything about him in my first post.
He is the only one who has ever told me I was manipulative. I never came here looking for people to tell me I'm doing the 'right things', or compliments. The only person I care who sees me doing the 'right things is Awake. The people who have responded to him support him. Most if not all of the people who have responded to me support him. If that is what i was after, after seeing the lack of 'support and complinents' I have gotten, I prob would have either left the boards or lashed out.
I am here for the advice. Whether it be good, bad, supportive to me or not. I appreciate EVERYONES input. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jeffery

CEL said:


> Personally I do not advocate divorce in this case for a number of reasons. Yes if Awake wants to I think she should go through with it as that is the honorable thing to do. But while he is deciding she should focus and showing him "as she has done" that she loves him and wants to be with him. Forever you are doing good in fact I am going to outline the things I think you are doing well just so that you can seem them individually.
> 
> 1. You are on this site taking jabs you have learned a lot from this and I really believe that this has helped open you eyes to why you did what you did. You are also seeking support from others who have been where you have been. One of the hardest things is ASKING for help.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. You are owning up to the fault of your affair 100 percent yes some posts are attacking you but that is because of the medium of communication we are using some words mean different thing to others. I do notice that you correct people on how you meant something instead of just attacking back.
> 
> 3. You have been honest and open with the questions that have been posed to you by others and this is a big step in being a more honest person overall.
> 
> 4. Even Awake says that at home you are doing everything right to make him believe you have changed his only criteria being the proof is in the pudding and real changes can only be evaluated over time.
> 
> 5. You are a very good poster you manage to convey your thoughts very well as well as emotion.
> 
> 6. You have followed the step necessary to do everything right and I think you are genuinely trying to change.
> 
> 
> You do have a lot to be proud of just because you are not at the finish line does not mean you cannot take some time to be proud of yourself. Yes I said proud many WS do in fact take the easy way out by demonizing the BS, refusing to be remorseful, refusing to make any changes, refusing to take any responsibility, refuse to do NC or just try to rugsweep. So take a moment and realize that what you are doing is GOOD that what you are doing with make you a BETTER person. One of the things you are starting to realize is that when you cheated you did not only cheat on your husband you cheated on your self you betryal was just as great to yourself as to him. You destroyed you self image when it all came down you realized you had become the kind of person that could rip the heart out of those that loved you more than themselves that trusted you more than themselves, this self respect is something you have to work to get back to truly BE the person that both you and your husband deserve. What you are doing will make whoever you end up with a LUCKY person. So this is me saying good job if you keep this up no matter what your story can be an inspiration on how to take responsibility of your choices and make something great from it. Good luck and I hope you continue down this path others have done it and I can honestly say that even if they were WS they are still some of the most inspirational people I have ever met.


it could be that she learned what she SHOULD be saying from reading the stories of others


----------



## Foreversorry

CEL said:


> Personally I do not advocate divorce in this case for a number of reasons. Yes if Awake wants to I think she should go through with it as that is the honorable thing to do. But while he is deciding she should focus and showing him "as she has done" that she loves him and wants to be with him. Forever you are doing good in fact I am going to outline the things I think you are doing well just so that you can seem them individually.
> 
> 1. You are on this site taking jabs you have learned a lot from this and I really believe that this has helped open you eyes to why you did what you did. You are also seeking support from others who have been where you have been. One of the hardest things is ASKING for help.
> 
> 2. You are owning up to the fault of your affair 100 percent yes some posts are attacking you but that is because of the medium of communication we are using some words mean different thing to others. I do notice that you correct people on how you meant something instead of just attacking back.
> 
> 3. You have been honest and open with the questions that have been posed to you by others and this is a big step in being a more honest person overall.
> 
> 4. Even Awake says that at home you are doing everything right to make him believe you have changed his only criteria being the proof is in the pudding and real changes can only be evaluated over time.
> 
> 5. You are a very good poster you manage to convey your thoughts very well as well as emotion.
> 
> 6. You have followed the step necessary to do everything right and I think you are genuinely trying to change.
> 
> 
> You do have a lot to be proud of just because you are not at the finish line does not mean you cannot take some time to be proud of yourself. Yes I said proud many WS do in fact take the easy way out by demonizing the BS, refusing to be remorseful, refusing to make any changes, refusing to take any responsibility, refuse to do NC or just try to rugsweep. So take a moment and realize that what you are doing is GOOD that what you are doing with make you a BETTER person. One of the things you are starting to realize is that when you cheated you did not only cheat on your husband you cheated on your self you betryal was just as great to yourself as to him. You destroyed you self image when it all came down you realized you had become the kind of person that could rip the heart out of those that loved you more than themselves that trusted you more than themselves, this self respect is something you have to work to get back to truly BE the person that both you and your husband deserve. What you are doing will make whoever you end up with a LUCKY person. So this is me saying good job if you keep this up no matter what your story can be an inspiration on how to take responsibility of your choices and make something great from it. Good luck and I hope you continue down this path others have done it and I can honestly say that even if they were WS they are still some of the most inspirational people I have ever met.



Thank you for this. I appriciate it.


----------



## Foreversorry

Jeffery said:


> it could be that she learned what she SHOULD be saying from reading the stories of others


That could be what other posters are seeing. Awake is the one who will be able to see that its not just words. Saying and doing are two different things. I have learned a lot from reading other stories, but one of them is not 'only saying the right things'.


----------



## CEL

Jeffery said:


> it could be that she learned what she SHOULD be saying from reading the stories of others



Your reaching take a step back for a second.
1. She had put in place all the steps before she came here. Look at Awakes thread he even says that once she hit rock bottom she agreed to all the steps. Plus many of the steps like passwords, email accounts, phone open at any time, make it DAMN hard to continue an affair yes there are ways "burner phone, certain apps, schedule your time".

2. But Awake is a smart IT guy so he knows this. 

3. She has continued to post her even tho if you were trying to find a way to get around those things there are sites that would be a better use of her time than this one.

4. I tend to judge people based on ACTIONS yes she did cheat, yes she did lie, yes she did betray her husband. These are all facts what she does with them is up to HER no one can force her. And from what Awake has posted and what SHE has posted she is doing ALL that she can to not make up for it "because pain can only be healed it is not like you can go back to before it happened" but instead to BE the wife she should of been all along. 

5. People do horrible things I know I lived my life with a ton of them in that time some have turned over and realized what they have done and made changes. I DO NOT excuse there actions to me but I do applaud the character that it shows to face the fact that you have done wrong, that you are not the person you SHOULD be, that in fact the actions and decisions that you made DISGUST you. To take all this and CHANGE who you are that I do find to be inspirational. Can she do this? Again that is up to her but I will give her my support for as long as I see that she is working on it.

6. Time will tell but at this moment her actions and words match up and for me that is good enough.



Besides I try to follow the KISS method and that tells me given the evidence and actions that for TODAY she is sincere otherwise she should be bald wear a suit and call her self Lexy Luther "yeah I did that". Masterminds are few and far between. Now will she keep it up? Well that is all in her court as long as she commits to it everyday then she will be sincere EVERYDAY.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Trying to save what's left*



Foreversorry said:


> That could be what other posters are seeing. Awake is the one who will be able to see that its not just words. Saying and doing are two different things. I have learned a lot from reading other stories, but one of them is not 'only saying the right things'.


Words = regret

Actions = remorse


----------



## Jonesey

bfree said:


> Words = regret
> 
> Actions = remorse


Just to ad to your excellent quote..

What is you´re plan, Forever???

I´n Awke´s shoes i personally would like to now why know??

What changed? and please don´t keep giving the script answer´s. I MEAN THIS SERIOUSLY

Find out that question,and let You´re husband now..If you answer it now he will know you just have made it up.


----------



## Jonesey

CEL 

i agree for the most part.. but remember DR cool or whatever that sight´s name was...


----------



## Rookie4

LostViking said:


> Think what you want Rookie. But don't discount literature, television and pop culture's influence an a woman's mind and behavior if she gets caught up in that stuff. If you dont think these have an effect on altering the behavior of some women, you are deluding yourself.


Dude, that isn't what you said, is it? You specifically mentioned these two examples. You did NOT state generalities. I would agree with a general opinion, but would disagree with your specific examples.


----------



## Rookie4

LostViking said:


> I included that Oprah line half jokingly by the way...
> 
> She's not a bad gal....just fat.


 She's not fat, she's robust.


----------



## Rookie4

Foreversorry said:


> So, just a matter of opinion from you guys..You all obviously know my story..and that its still VERY early on in me trying to fix things..should I feel like a hypocrite for thinking about posting in other threads? Mainly threads started by other WS's. On one hand, I feel like 'dont be an idiot, do these things so you dont end up like me' and on the other hand, i feel like what right do I have to say anything at all when I was the one who betrayed?


Last I looked, it is a free country. Post where you want.


----------



## Madman1

Dont be afraid to post, its a support forum. It will be helpful in a number of ways.


----------



## Vanguard

Foreversorry said:


> Wouldnt that logically mean the same for EVERYONE? Even those who are not going through infidelity or anything else? As in, yes, you love your spouse, but if you really love them THAT much, divorce them and show them just how much you love them.
> 
> If I didnt care about him, I wouldnt be fighting for him. I wouldnt care if he stayed or went. Im fighting because I KNOW that I can be faithful to him, and that we can be happy together again. I am fighting to show him that.


No. You're taking one particular idea from a relatively large philosophical machine. You're not even taking a particular nuance, you're dissecting a fragment of a nuance. 

Please take no offense to this- I am simply being frank and concise. Love means doing what's best for the other person. Whether that be fighting for them, providing for them, yelling at them, or divorcing them. You've established that you love yourself more than you love him (your affair). You have also established that you are interpreting everything, including your affair, through the lens of how it affects you. Your man. Your pain. Your guilt. Your marriage. 

What about him? You need to take a real good look at how you are thinking and contextualizing things. You can't just slap his name on to whatever self-serving pathology your mind latches onto and say that it's for him. You really need to think about this. 

I don't think this is the case just for you, by the way. Many, many people have difficulties growing beyond this way of thinking. I apologize if this seems harsh. I promise I am not bashing you. But I wouldn't be doing you a favor if I didn't point these things out.

*EDIT:* If you do some true soul searching and arrive at the conclusion that reconciliation is the best thing for him, then do it. But if you are deceiving yourself (and it is very easy for us to unwittingly lie to ourselves) you will bring yourself an astounding volume of pain in ways that you can't really understand at this juncture.


----------



## aug

Maybe you should look at it this way. You say you love your husband. One of the ways you showed love is to have multiple EA's and a PA. (The EA's and PA are now imprinted into you and are part of you. I dont see how you can ever remove that.)

Will you agree to let him show you his love the same way? Let him have emotional and physical attachment to another woman.


----------



## Foreversorry

Vanguard said:


> You have also established that you are interpreting everything, including your affair, through the lens of how it affects you. Your man. Your pain. Your guilt. Your marriage.



Everything that I am doing is for him as well as me. Im making changes for me first, and that in turn is for him. My being an open book (the transparency) the answering of everything, the boundries, and some of the things I have agreed to are for him. To help him heal. To help him to eventually feel 'safe' coming into a relationship with me again. I havent once said or did anything in reguards to MY pain. My pain is absolutely nothing in compairison to the pain I caused him. 



aug said:


> Maybe you should look at it this way. You say you love your husband. One of the ways you showed love is to have multiple EA's and a PA. (The EA's and PA are now imprinted into you and are part of you. I dont see how you can ever remove that.)
> 
> Will you agree to let him show you his love the same way? Let him have emotional and physical attachment to another woman.


I can't ever 'remove' that, but I can use that as a lesson. 
Agreeing to let him do the same? That is stupid. No one would LET their spouse do the same as a way to 'show their love'.


----------



## Rookie4

aug said:


> Maybe you should look at it this way. You say you love your husband. One of the ways you showed love is to have multiple EA's and a PA. (The EA's and PA are now imprinted into you and are part of you. I dont see how you can ever remove that.)
> 
> Will you agree to let him show you his love the same way? Let him have emotional and physical attachment to another woman.


Ok, Aug, you've heaped your load of guilt on the OP. I think that maybe it's time to concentrate on the subject of can/should Awake and Foreversorry R or D and why, and leave off the bitter side comments. Foreversorry is NOT an idiot. She fully understands the magnitude of her choices. So lets try to be helpful, instead of constantly slapping her down. This is doing Awake no favors either. As a former BS, I've had my share of anger, but after a while it becomes counter-productive. Lets try some CONSTRUCTIVE advice.


----------



## alte Dame

I could have my threads confused, so please ignore this if that is the case. Were you the WW who, during an R attempt, when your BH asked to see your phone, you hovered over him, tried to quickly scroll through things and tilted the phone so he couldn't easily see it?

If this was you, why did you do that? This wasn't that long ago, was it?


----------



## Rookie4

alte Dame said:


> I could have my threads confused, so please ignore this if that is the case. Were you the WW who, during an R attempt, when your BH asked to see your phone, you hovered over him, tried to quickly scroll through things and tilted the phone so he couldn't easily see it?
> 
> If this was you, why did you do that? This wasn't that long ago, was it?


Ok, this is what I mean. Alt Dame, the op is a WS, we already KNOW that she is a deceitful person, right? So how is this post helpful? Instead of any further accusations, which even YOU aren't sure of, how about something constructive? Try to help her with her issues, with good solid advice, don't keep beating this dead horse.


----------



## LostViking

I agree. I think FS has made the first baby steps into trying to rehabilitate herself. If I'm not mistaken this forum is touted as a pro-marriage forum. Shouldn't we be trying to help FS and Awake save their marriage by pulling our combined knowledge and experiences, instead of scrutinizing every single word and phrase FS utters in an attempt to catch her in a lie or contradiction? This getting old.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

One thing, FS, is that you need to be pro-active. Don't make Awake ask you for anything, VOLUNTEER your time and effort. And by all means, follow through with everything you say.


----------



## mineforever

Foreversorry.... you are doing great...you hang in there! I am a BS from many years ago and my big guy put me through a PA and multiple EA's and multiple R's....it is he** what you have put awake1through but I also know you are now going to go through the same kinda of he** accepting responsibility for your own actions. If there is one thing I I can tell you it wlk would be "talk...talk...and when your done talking love each other".

Awake1...really sorry that life has brought you here...s*cks to be part of this club. Thought I would tell you what remorse looked like for my serial cheater once he finally got it.... by the way it took us agreeing that this was the last time and that if he cheated again he would leave of his own accord. He set his own boundaries ...heres what they were....answers all my questions, gave up PC (internet access), cell phone (only family numbers), calls and tells me when and where he is at all during day (that gets really annoying...but he feels better doing it), no female friends other than family. I won't police him I have told him that from day one...he has to be adult enough to control himself. If he is going to cheat or screw up he is going to all the policing in the world won't prevent it. I am happy to say...big guy is staying strong to his committment! You have a decision to make on whether this is the life you want to commit to....I have been on this path for 31 yrs with my husband. It is not an easy one, I am not saying it is the wrong one just that it is not easy and there is a heavy personal price to pay on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alte Dame

Rookie4 said:


> Ok, this is what I mean. Alt Dame, the op is a WS, we already KNOW that she is a deceitful person, right? So how is this post helpful? Instead of any further accusations, which even YOU aren't sure of, how about something constructive? Try to help her with her issues, with good solid advice, don't keep beating this dead horse.


It's true, Rookie4, this isn't constructive for her to get her H to believe her. True. But the point shouldn't be to get her H to believe her, in my opinion. It should be for her to look at her actions, her actual behavior and work on herself to become a more decent person. Talking in general terms about how she has changed doesn't address all of the reflexes of her behavior. I don't believe it's an accusation. I think she has to look at the details of her behavior that occurred over many years and not just focus on general statements of regret. My solid advice is that she do this.


----------



## alte Dame

LostViking said:


> I agree. I think FS has made the first baby steps into trying to rehabilitate herself. If I'm not mistaken this forum is touted as a pro-marriage forum. Shouldn't we be trying to help FS and Awake save their marriage by pulling our combined knowledge and experiences, instead of scrutinizing every single word and phrase FS utters in an attempt to catch her in a lie or contradiction? This getting old.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm very confused by some of this discussion. There are many, many threads here where the BS is tortured, sometimes many years after the infidelity, by the fact that he/she never really got the 'truth.' Sometimes there was rugsweeping, sometimes omission of details, sometimes a counselor enforced the burying of truth. In any event, the BS always complains about not really knowing what happened to a level of satisfaction that would help the reconciliation. This is really a very common issue.

Wouldn't the task of helping the OP, in this case a WS, include pushing him/her to face the details of the behavior openly and own them and not trickle truth or rugsweep or underplay to the BS?

I realize that there may be a blurred line between beating up on the OP and trying to make her see that not visiting the details is not workable for a reconciliation. I personally don't have any great desire to hammer away at her, but that doesn't mean for me that she shouldn't be pushed to face the various facets of her behavior, however painful. This, I think, is actually constructive, since it can spark real change, not just paper over problems.


----------



## LostViking

Yes but only if Awake1 wants every lurid detail. If that's what he wants then that's what she needs to give him. But why does he need every detail? Does he want to be able to process the details so he can move on? 

Or does he want some detail he has not heard that he can use and say "that is it! That is my deal breaker!" ? And then use what he asked her to give him as an excuse to cancel R and walk away. I think Awake1 needs to be honest about his own intentions. I get the hint he is looking to an excuse to bail. That is his right to do so and no one can blame him. But it is a question he needs to ask himself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alte Dame

I think these things are variable and personal, but always within a definable range. The one question that seems to be universal is 'why.' FS doesn't have to respond to online strangers about the details, but I think if she wants a chance, she has to really examine this closely and she has to be encouraged to do so. I think the questions have to be asked, whether she answers them here or not. I also think that there is a better chance of reconciliation if both the BS and WS confront the 'why' of it.

(And I agree that some people may have a primary interest in the lurid details, but I mainly find it sad. Facing the behavior points up the sad truth of it and shines sunlight on it, which can be very important for creating serious positive change.)


----------



## Foreversorry

First, thank you for your imput Mineflower..Second, I greatly appriciate what Rookie and Lostviking has said, though I thought that came with the territory of my posting here. Part of the way you guys are able to help Awake and I is asking questions. 



alte Dame said:


> *I realize that there may be a blurred line between beating up on the OP and trying to make her see that not visiting the details is not workable for a reconciliation.* I personally don't have any great desire to hammer away at her, but that doesn't mean for me that she shouldn't be pushed to face the various facets of her behavior, however painful. This, I think, is actually constructive, since it can spark real change, not just paper over problems.


Some BS's dont feel like they want/need the 'details' or the 'whys' for certain details, but Awake is not one of those people. Everything that has been asked by people in this thread has been asked by Awake at one point or another, and I have no problem answering them honestly. I am actually GREATFUL for some of the minor 'why' questions I have been asked, as truthfully, I dont know WHY I did some of the things I did. It makes me think about it, and while it helps Awake work through things, it also helps me. It helps me to figure out why I did the things I did, which is a road to fixing whatever issues I have, which, in turn, helps Awake. 

To answer Alte Dame's question, this was back in February with the phone. Obviously, the reason I was doing that was because I was still TTing. At the time, I actually believed that I did that because thats just how I was with my phone. With anyone, not just Awake. I never wanted ANYONE to mess with, or look at my phone. I didnt ACTIVELY do it BECAUSE I was hiding something else, but in hindsight thats exactly what it was. It also goes back into my trying to 'compremise' with whatever he had asked me to in those months. Yes I wanted to help him, but at the same time, I was caught up with 'but why cant he start trying to trust me again'. Obviously, we know the answer to that question. Because I ruined his trust in the first place.


----------



## Foreversorry

LostViking said:


> Yes but only if Awake1 wants every lurid detail. If that's what he wants then that's what she needs to give him. But why does he need every detail? Does he want to be able to process the details so he can move on?
> 
> Or does he want some detail he has not heard that he can use and say "that is it! That is my deal breaker!" ? And then use what he asked her to give him as an excuse to cancel R and walk away. I think Awake1 needs to be honest about his own intentions. I get the hint he is looking to an excuse to bail. That is his right to do so and no one can blame him. But it is a question he needs to ask himself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I believe it is a little bit of both, but its not the detail itself that would be a deal breaker, it would be the fact that it was something else that I hid-lied about-didnt come clean with.
The details themself are what he feels he needs in order to continue processing and work through it. If roles were reversed, Im not sure that I would even want every single detail, thought, or feeling, but HE does and I owe it to him to give him that.


----------



## warlock07

LostViking said:


> Yes but only if Awake1 wants every lurid detail. If that's what he wants then that's what she needs to give him. But why does he need every detail? Does he want to be able to process the details so he can move on?
> 
> Or does he want some detail he has not heard that he can use and say "that is it! That is my deal breaker!" ? And then use what he asked her to give him as an excuse to cancel R and walk away. I think Awake1 needs to be honest about his own intentions. I get the hint he is looking to an excuse to bail. That is his right to do so and no one can blame him. But it is a question he needs to ask himself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe he feels that only with complete truth that he can make a proper decision. I think he knows her much better than we do. The insinuations are uncalled for. If he wants to leave, he already had more than enough.


----------



## alte Dame

Foreversorry said:


> ...I dont know WHY I did some of the things I did. It makes me think about it, and while it helps Awake work through things, it also helps me. It helps me to figure out why I did the things I did, which is a road to fixing whatever issues I have, which, in turn, helps Awake.


I agree with this. Self-knowledge is important and helpful if you really want to change your life. Many of the BS's here are rightfully very suspicious of theirs WS's conversions. They ask, 'Why did he/she suddenly see the light. What really has changed? Why am I suddenly of value?'

Mostly, those questions can only be answered by the WS and, in my opinion, they are very important. Without an honest and heartfelt understanding of questions like this, the BS can feel that it is just an act. If you recognize this and are working on it, you are right, in my opinion, that it helps both of you.


----------



## LostViking

But what Awake has to ask himself eventually is , what is mor important: the "whats" or the WHYS". 

When my first wife cheated on me, the WHYS were what mattered. Yeah I had the mind movies, and I just took it for granted that she had done things with her lover(s) that she had never done with me. I just took that as a given. The "why did she do it?" was what was more important to me, because I wanted to know why I was so inadequate that she would search out other guys to bang. 

It wasn't until two decades after we split that we reunited for a while, that she came clean and admitted to me that her infidelities stemmed from huge personal insecurities going back to her very messed up childhood. 

Her excessive need for validation from as many men as she could get was a huge motivator in her cheating, and had nothing whatsoever to do with my skills in the sack, which she claims she was more than satisfied with. After years of therapy she finally got a hold on her issues and was, and is, continuing to deal with them through counseling. 

FS you need to get to the root of your need for male validation. I think this is the root of your problems, and they probably go back to some trauma in your past that you have shut out of your memory, or, for which you are in extreme denial.


----------



## LongWalk

LostViking said:


> But what Awake has to ask himself eventually is , what is mor important: the "whats" or the WHYS".
> 
> When my first wife cheated on me, the WHYS were what mattered. Yeah I had the mind movies, and I just took it for granted that she had done things with her lover(s) that she had never done with me. I just took that as a given. The "why did she do it?" was what was more important to me, because I wanted to know why I was so inadequate that she would search out other guys to bang.
> 
> It wasn't until two decades after we split that we reunited for a while, that she came clean and admitted to me that her infidelities stemmed from huge personal insecurities going back to her very messed up childhood.
> 
> Her excessive need for validation from as many men as she could get was a huge motivator in her cheating, and had nothing whatsoever to do with my skills in the sack, which she claims she was more than satisfied with. After years of therapy she finally got a hold on her issues and was, and is, continuing to deal with them through counseling.
> 
> FS you need to get to the root of your need for male validation. I think this is the root of your problems, and they probably go back to some trauma in your past that you have shut out of your memory, or, for which you are in extreme denial.


You should share this with LostLove
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

LongWalk said:


> You should share this with LostLove
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LostViking...:iagree:


----------



## LostViking

I did. 

Lost Viking is never marrying again. And yes he is getting counseling for his WhiteKnight tendencies. Smarta$$es.


----------



## Rookie4

alte Dame said:


> I'm very confused by some of this discussion. There are many, many threads here where the BS is tortured, sometimes many years after the infidelity, by the fact that he/she never really got the 'truth.' Sometimes there was rugsweeping, sometimes omission of details, sometimes a counselor enforced the burying of truth. In any event, the BS always complains about not really knowing what happened to a level of satisfaction that would help the reconciliation. This is really a very common issue.
> 
> Wouldn't the task of helping the OP, in this case a WS, include pushing him/her to face the details of the behavior openly and own them and not trickle truth or rugsweep or underplay to the BS?
> 
> I realize that there may be a blurred line between beating up on the OP and trying to make her see that not visiting the details is not workable for a reconciliation. I personally don't have any great desire to hammer away at her, but that doesn't mean for me that she shouldn't be pushed to face the various facets of her behavior, however painful. This, I think, is actually constructive, since it can spark real change, not just paper over problems.


I understand what you are saying, AD, but what is it to you? We as posters don't need to know every detail, only Awake does. We can be more helpful by trying to show FS what will help her to better herself, and by making Awake aware of his options.


----------



## awake1

LostViking said:


> Yes but only if Awake1 wants every lurid detail. If that's what he wants then that's what she needs to give him. But why does he need every detail? Does he want to be able to process the details so he can move on?
> 
> Or does he want some detail he has not heard that he can use and say "that is it! That is my deal breaker!" ? And then use what he asked her to give him as an excuse to cancel R and walk away. I think Awake1 needs to be honest about his own intentions. I get the hint he is looking to an excuse to bail. That is his right to do so and no one can blame him. But it is a question he needs to ask himself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I dont feel like i have all the truth. 

As far as leaving i honesly do not know yet. But no i dont need another reason. 1 EA is enough. The details only mattered if we R. I need the info not to stay or go but so my imagination can be given a rest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LostViking

awake1 said:


> I dont feel like i have all the truth.
> 
> As far as leaving i honesly do not know yet. But no i dont need another reason. 1 EA is enough. The details only mattered if we R. I need the info not to stay or go but *so my imagination can be given a rest.*_Posted via Mobile Device_


Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. But you are right. If you need the full truth, the details, then FS needs to fess up completely. 

Just beware what you wish for.


----------



## mineforever

awake1 said:


> I dont feel like i have all the truth.
> 
> As far as leaving i honesly do not know yet. But no i dont need another reason. 1 EA is enough. The details only mattered if we R. I need the info not to stay or go but so my imagination can be given a rest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Awake1....I know you won't listen to me because I didn't listen to the person that told me very well but she was right and I wish I had. You really don'tvneed to know the details matter fact you shouldn't knoe them...they are just more things you will have to forget. You see right now your imagination and mind movies are running wild but that will subside. The memories are another thing...the facts of the affair are memories that have to be forgotten...not so easy. You don't need to know about the sex....how often... what kind...with who.. etc.. I know it is exactly what you want to know right now... but you will regret finding out all the details when you want to forget them and leave them behind you. One day you will want to move beyond this...and remember the pain no more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alte Dame

Rookie4 said:


> I understand what you are saying, AD, but what is it to you? We as posters don't need to know every detail, only Awake does. We can be more helpful by trying to show FS what will help her to better herself, and by making Awake aware of his options.


I suppose what it is to me is what it is to anyone who responds on a thread here.

I believe that questions like the one you object to actually do 'help her to better herself.' The subject matter of my question wasn't sordid or lurid. It was mundane. For me, it goes to understanding behavior that is dysfunctional or hurtful that can both help her figure out why she does what she does and what she can do to change. It goes to compartmentalization and how that supports the destructive behavior.

I have no problem in agreeing to disagree here. I understand your position, Rookie, but believe that certain directed, detailed questions are not out of bounds. In my opinion, they can be constructive for the OP.


----------



## Rookie4

mineforever said:


> Awake1....I know you won't listen to me because I didn't listen to the person that told me very well but she was right and I wish I had. You really don'tvneed to know the details matter fact you shouldn't knoe them...they are just more things you will have to forget. You see right now your imagination and mind movies are running wild but that will subside. The memories are another thing...the facts of the affair are memories that have to be forgotten...not so easy. You don't need to know about the sex....how often... what kind...with who.. etc.. I know it is exactly what you want to know right now... but you will regret finding out all the details when you want to forget them and leave them behind you. One day you will want to move beyond this...and remember the pain no more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The problem with this is that the mind movies are usually much worse than the actual facts. Now people with little imagination might be able to get away without knowing the true facts, but Awake has already said that he must know, for his own piece of mind.. 
Also, a large part of the R process is the willingness of the cheater to prove that they can be trusted and the affair is truly over, , and how can this be done, without knowing the facts? Mineforever's position makes no sense, you cannot forget memories.


----------



## Rookie4

alte Dame said:


> I suppose what it is to me is what it is to anyone who responds on a thread here.
> 
> I believe that questions like the one you object to actually do 'help her to better herself.' The subject matter of my question wasn't sordid or lurid. It was mundane. For me, it goes to understanding behavior that is dysfunctional or hurtful that can both help her figure out why she does what she does and what she can do to change. It goes to compartmentalization and how that supports the destructive behavior.
> 
> I have no problem in agreeing to disagree here. I understand your position, Rookie, but believe that certain directed, detailed questions are not out of bounds. In my opinion, they can be constructive for the OP.


AD, you miss-understand. There is a time and place for all of this kind of thing, but I feel that in FS's situation, that time is past. You or I or any other poster, aren't here to point out every single flaw in FS's character or remind her (and awake) of all of the example's of her evil ways. Awake will know , better than any of us , what he needs to make his decisions. It is Awake's agenda that is important, not ours.


----------



## Rookie4

awake1 said:


> I dont feel like i have all the truth.
> 
> As far as leaving i honesly do not know yet. But no i dont need another reason. 1 EA is enough. The details only mattered if we R. I need the info not to stay or go but so my imagination can be given a rest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Awake, old Man, if YOU feel that there is more info that you are not getting, my advice to you is to keep digging until you are satisfied. But do this BEFORE you make any decisions about R or D. Also make sure that the info you are getting relates to the affair and your marriage. Only pay attention to the info that pertains to your specific issues, not a re-hash of all of FS's faults. You already know about the worst of them , anyway. It's hard to do, but you must try to be even-handed in processing the info you get. Weigh the pros and cons on their own merits ( without listening to people who have their own agendas).


----------



## Rookie4

When a marriage is in trouble (whether there is infidelity or not) there will always be different people with different agendas trying to sway the individuals in the marriage to their POV.
After D-day when I kicked Sweetie out, and even to this day, there are as many people who keep reminding me of her bad behavior, as there are those who are supportive of her , and most of it has nothing at all to do with our relationship, or US as people, I actually had a woman tell me that she KNEW that Sweetie was no-good, when we first started dating, 30 years ago!!! Sweetie will get asked if she still cheats? WTF is that all about? Most are well-meaning, but some (especially those who have had marriage problems themselves) seem to want to see us fail like they did. Misery loves company.


----------



## mineforever

Rookie4 said:


> The problem with this is that the mind movies are usually much worse than the actual facts. Now people with little imagination might be able to get away without knowing the true facts, but Awake has already said that he must know, for his own piece of mind..
> Also, a large part of the R process is the willingness of the cheater to prove that they can be trusted and the affair is truly over, , and how can this be done, without knowing the facts? Mineforever's position makes no sense, you cannot forget memories.


And that would be the point exactly! When you have all the sorted details, you have them etched into your mind permenantly.... 10 yrs later I can tell you in detail what his first time was like with th OW....I can tell you there conversation and I can tell you how it made him feel. I can descibe to you in his complete "fog" the look on his face when he explained to me how after 20 yrs of marriage to me he had met hiis soul mate and was in love and how happy he was. Yeah my husband just couldn't wait to tell me all about it....idiot somehow thought I was supposed to be happy for him. My point was I know he thinks he needs to know the details to get past it ....but in reality you don't....it only makes it harder in the long run. The facts become etched in your brain as memories. Your imagination and mind movies are temporary....your memories are not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alte Dame

Rookie4 said:


> AD, you miss-understand. There is a time and place for all of this kind of thing, but I feel that in FS's situation, that time is past. You or I or any other poster, aren't here to point out every single flaw in FS's character or remind her (and awake) of all of the example's of her evil ways. Awake will know , better than any of us , what he needs to make his decisions. It is Awake's agenda that is important, not ours.


I think I understand your point pretty well. I just have a different perspective. I don't view this as an agenda, but that's my opinion. I respect your position and, as I said, will agree to disagree. I have no need to continue this back and forth with you, Rookie. I think we have differing ideas on what is helpful. You believe in yours & I believe I can defend mine. Can't we just leave it at that?


----------



## mineforever

Rookie4 said:


> When a marriage is in trouble (whether there is infidelity or not) there will always be different people with different agendas trying to sway the individuals in the marriage to their POV.
> After D-day when I kicked Sweetie out, and even to this day, there are as many people who keep reminding me of her bad behavior, as there are those who are supportive of her , and most of it has nothing at all to do with our relationship, or US as people, I actually had a woman tell me that she KNEW that Sweetie was no-good, when we first started dating, 30 years ago!!! Sweetie will get asked if she still cheats? WTF is that all about? Most are well-meaning, but some (especially those who have had marriage problems themselves) seem to want to see us fail like they did. Misery loves company.


I completely understand this....I cannot believe how many people who 10 years later still bring up big guy's affair. He feels like it will hang around his neck for the rest of his life. Instead of being happy for us and supportive some people act almost aggrivated because we stayed together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Foreversorry

mineforever said:


> I completely understand this....I cannot believe how many people who 10 years later still bring up big guy's affair. *He feels like it will hang around his neck for the rest of his life.* Instead of being happy for us and supportive some people act almost aggrivated because we stayed together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It will hang around for the rest of his life. My parents went through infidelity 20+ years ago, and its still gets talked about. Of course, not like it was then, but it does still get talked about here and there.


----------



## 2asdf2

mineforever said:


> And that would be the point exactly! When you have all the sorted details, you have them etched into your mind permenantly.... 10 yrs later I can tell you in detail what his first time was like with th OW....I can tell you there conversation and I can tell you how it made him feel. I can descibe to you in his complete "fog" the look on his face when he explained to me how after 20 yrs of marriage to me he had met hiis soul mate and was in love and how happy he was. Yeah my husband just couldn't wait to tell me all about it....idiot somehow thought I was supposed to be happy for him. My point was I know he thinks he needs to know the details to get past it ....but in reality you don't....it only makes it harder in the long run. The facts become etched in your brain as memories. *Your imagination and mind movies are temporary*....your memories are not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've had mine since 1974. 

When can I expect that they'll fade out?


----------



## Chris989

It upsets my ex wife that she will take her betrayal of me, the children and herself to her grave. She talks about if she dies first it will be what I remember her for and if I die first, she will know it can never be fixed properly.

She wanted to be buried as husband and wife, but of course with the divorce and all that would be rather difficult.

Of course, the children will always know what she did so it goes down another generation too.

It really is the gift that keeps on giving, isn't it?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Trying to save what's left*



2asdf2 said:


> I've had mine since 1974.
> 
> When can I expect that they'll fade out?


I can't say that I have mind movies from my first marriage over twenty years ago. But I still have bad memories and trust issues. Not sure they ever truly go away. The way I look at it they are now a part of the person I am today for better or worse.


----------



## doubletrouble

I've been cheated on several times in my life, and with wife #1, I never really had mind movies. I just knew when I read the note he wrote her about being in his arms, that I was done. It was relatively easy, I just divorced her and moved on. 

The second time I was cheated on, there were no mind movies. She ran after a married man and I just had to let it go; no choice in the matter. This woman I was not married to. 

This last time, the mind movies are driving me crazy. I have some truth, some stories, some I never even asked for. The rest of it, answers I don't have yet (and she's not volunteering yet), drive me nuts once in a while. What I do know is that she was totally in love with someone else, and I was a secondary thought to all her primary thoughts about him. Yet she still took my ring. 

For example, a story about their first time, he left his watch in the hotel room. Called her the next morning looking for it. One night we went to bed and while I normally leave my watch elsewhere, I happened to wear it to the bedroom. Taking it off there, just before going to bed, I triggered on her story. For quite a few months afterwards, I couldn't even wear my watch. 

So what I'm trying to say, although I digressed a little, is that even in one lifetime, mind movies may or may not be a big deal. I can say that knowing won't help me feel any better, but not knowing is bad, too.


----------



## doubletrouble

By the way, FS, had my WW done half the things you have been doing, as well as you have been doing, I think our R would be in a lot better shape now than it is. So there's one perspective for you. I hope Awake can see that some day, and that it's enough for him. 

I'm rooting for both of you two to heal and move into a strong relationship where there is only bad history, but with the lessons well-learned.


----------



## Rookie4

mineforever said:


> And that would be the point exactly! When you have all the sorted details, you have them etched into your mind permenantly.... 10 yrs later I can tell you in detail what his first time was like with th OW....I can tell you there conversation and I can tell you how it made him feel. I can descibe to you in his complete "fog" the look on his face when he explained to me how after 20 yrs of marriage to me he had met hiis soul mate and was in love and how happy he was. Yeah my husband just couldn't wait to tell me all about it....idiot somehow thought I was supposed to be happy for him. My point was I know he thinks he needs to know the details to get past it ....but in reality you don't....it only makes it harder in the long run. The facts become etched in your brain as memories. Your imagination and mind movies are temporary....your memories are not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Memories are memories, if your reasoning is true, then we all should get lobotomized so we don't have any memories at all. Hiding from unpleasant facts with your head firmly in the sand is no way to live, IMO.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Trying to save what's left*



Rookie4 said:


> Memories are memories, if your reasoning is true, then we all should get lobotomized so we don't have any memories at all. Hiding from unpleasant facts with your head firmly in the sand is no way to live, IMO.


Yes. It's our experiences and memories and how we grow from them that make its who we are.


----------



## mineforever

Rookie4 said:


> Memories are memories, if your reasoning is true, then we all should get lobotomized so we don't have any memories at all. Hiding from unpleasant facts with your head firmly in the sand is no way to live, IMO.


I never once said hide from your memories...I said forget and get past them. I didn't take the advise when it was given to me over 10 yrs ago either. I got every sorted detail...got all the memories to show for it too. I always said if I could pass along that advise to someone I would ....maybe they would be smarter than me and realize that getting all the sorted details doesn't help...knowing they slept together 5 times is enough...having to know when where and what they did exactly is more detail then I needed to know. Well I tried, I'll quit bothering you all with my point now. You all have a good day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Foreversorry

I dont see what the point is to everyone argueing back and forth over the 'details' topic. What one person needs and can handle, and feel they can 'get through' may not be what someone else can. There is no 'right or wrong' when it comes to HOW much detail they should get. Its an indiviual choice. If someone would have asked me something that Awake told me he didnt WANT to know, I would have said so.


----------



## Rookie4

mineforever said:


> I never once said hide from your memories...I said forget and get past them. I didn't take the advise when it was given to me over 10 yrs ago either. I got every sorted detail...got all the memories to show for it too. I always said if I could pass along that advise to someone I would ....maybe they would be smarter than me and realize that getting all the sorted details doesn't help...knowing they slept together 5 times is enough...having to know when where and what they did exactly is more detail then I needed to know. Well I tried, I'll quit bothering you all with my point now. You all have a good day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This doesn't even make sense. How do you forget memories?


----------



## Rookie4

Foreversorry said:


> I dont see what the point is to everyone argueing back and forth over the 'details' topic. What one person needs and can handle, and feel they can 'get through' may not be what someone else can. There is no 'right or wrong' when it comes to HOW much detail they should get. Its an indiviual choice. If someone would have asked me something that Awake told me he didnt WANT to know, I would have said so.


I think, FS that the main point here is that you, as the WS, don't get to say what details to give Awake. You need to be ready and WILLING to tell him everything!! Cheerfully! If that's what he wants. Sweetie gave me every single bit of info Dates, times, what they did/didn't do, every place they went to , how long they were there, . All of her thoughts before, during, and after. EVERYTHING. She still does. She has no phone, cannot use any pc without letting me know, has no credit cards, in her name, and I get all of the bills. She calls me when she gets to work, goes on break, and when she leaves for home. The funny thing is that I never asked her to do half this stuff. She WANTS to do it, because my trust in her is the most important thing in the world to her, and she has proved it 24/7/365.


----------



## awake1

Imagination is not set in stone like the truth. The truth never changes, no matter how many times you roll it over in your head. 

Imagination can. "Did they do it in this position? I wonder if it was that one. OMG they prob did it like that too." 

For me at least, each piece of truth was a relief.


----------



## LostViking

Then the whole truth is what you need. FS can you draw up a timeline for your husband with dates, places and whatever sundry info he desires?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Foreversorry

LostViking said:


> Then the whole truth is what you need. FS can you draw up a timeline for your husband with dates, places and whatever sundry info he desires?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have written him a basic time line already with dates and such. Details, he just asks and I answer.


----------



## Rookie4

Foreversorry said:


> I have written him a basic time line already with dates and such. Details, he just asks and I answer.


This isn't quite the truth, is it? Awake has said that getting info from you is a pain in the heinie. That he has to threaten and cajol you into being more open.


----------



## Foreversorry

This is total truth. In the past, yes he had difficult times getting me to be honest, or speak out, but he is getting absolute pure 100% truth on whatever he asks me now. Whether it comes to details, or simply my feelings. I hold absolutely nothing back from him or anyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LostViking

Foreversorry said:


> This is total truth. In the past, yes he had difficult times getting me to be honest, or speak out, but he is getting absolute pure 100% truth on whatever he asks me now. Whether it comes to details, or simply my feelings. I hold absolutely nothing back from him or anyone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you are being honest with us, and you have disclosed every affair and misdeed to Awake1 that you can remember, every meetup, every rendezvous, then why does he think there is more you are not telling him?

We don't know your husband other than through his posts. Why would he suspect this?


----------



## Foreversorry

I would honestly feel the same way after so long of lies and deceit. Another thing is because the timeline doesn't make sense to him. Thefirst night spent with the OM occurred, and then a few months pasted before the 2nd and 3rd time. In those 'empty' months, nothing happened at all. No other APs, no texting, pics, nothing. Its basically an empty block between the other **** I did. It wouldn't make sense to me either, but that's the way it happened.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LostViking

Take the poly. You and Awake1 sit down and come up with a comprehensive list for the tester to use. Let Awake have the final say, but be involved with it. 

You might even want to answer the question of whether or not you were true to him during your engagement period. Alot of cheaters start cheating before the marriage is consummated. Not saying you did, but it may help assure him that this behavior you settled into over the last few years was not a part of you when the two of you got together.


----------



## Foreversorry

LostViking said:


> Take the poly. You and Awake1 sit down and come up with a comprehensive list for the tester to use. Let Awake have the final say, but be involved with it.
> 
> You might even want to answer the question of whether or not you were true to him during your engagement period. Alot of cheaters start cheating before the marriage is consummated. Not saying you did, but it may help assure him that this behavior you settled into over the last few years was not a part of you when the two of you got together.



As soon as I am able to get the money, the plan IS to do the poly. He has already typed up a sheet of questions for it that I have already answered. Of course I welcome any other questions he would have between now and then.


----------



## LostViking

Foreversorry said:


> As soon as I am able to get the money, the plan IS to do the poly. He has already typed up a sheet of questions for it that I have already answered. Of course I welcome any other questions he would have between now and then.


Well add that to it. "Did you cheat on your husband before the wedding?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SoulStorm

Wow. Looking back at awake1's post, he stated that around year 7 is when you started to treat him badly. You were moody, distant, and critical with him.
Looks like you do what some people do when they have had a bad childhood or were abused. You were prey..then as you become older you become a predator to the one who shows you compassion. Some people turn that around and never do what you did and some people do exactly as they received.

Awake1 feels that he doesn't have everything because you never respected him enough to give him the truth in the beginning and I feel even if you pass the poly, he won't still believe you. It may relieve him a bit, but there will be that nagging "what if".

The jist of this is that you have permanently put a grey cloud over your marriage and you will have to always be the sunshine that counteracts that cloud..or else awake1 will always feel he got the bad end of this marriage.


----------



## SoulStorm

I also want to add that I think the cheating pre-dated year 7. I think you have been taking advantage of awake1 far before year 7 with online flirting and even flirting in person at bars and GNO. The pattern you exhibited before he "manned up" on you would point to this very thing of you disrespecting him and doing whatever you wanted with anyone. I believe the poly will prove just that. If you are hoping that your new found attitude will erase or eradicate your behavior before awake1's change, don't count on it.

I just have a gut feeling that there is far more to tell that you haven't and you are hoping to beat the poly.

I've read awake1's whole thread and the old you is still not gone yet. She's still there behind the facade and only holding back because awake1 is not the same man he used to be. He is ready to let go and who could really blame him with how he has been emasculated, disrespected, cheated on and manipulated. I believe in second chances, but you've had that many times over. He is a good man and you have forever tainted your relationship with him. Any woman will be lucky to have him now.


----------



## Foreversorry

Soul, you are free to think that the cheating went on for as long as you want, but I know it didn't, and Awake knows everything that happened. I'm not 'hoping' ill pass the poly, I am confident that I will because I've told all that there was. The 'old' me is just that.. the OLD me. I'm not that person now nor will I ever be that person again. Awake does see that, and I am going to show him that this is how I am from here on out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SoulStorm

Foreversorry said:


> Soul, you are free to think that the cheating went on for as long as you want, but I know it didn't, and* Awake knows everything that happened.* I'm not 'hoping' ill pass the poly, I am confident that I will because I've told all that there was. The 'old' me is just that.. the OLD me. I'm not that person now nor will I ever be that person again. *Awake does see that, *and I am going to show him that this is how I am from here on out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Awake is doubtful he knows everything and even though he sees what you do..he still doesn't trust it.

I hope you do pass the poly. Awake has suffered enough.


----------



## Foreversorry

I know that he is doubtful that I've told him everything. Unfortunately, I can not do anything to prove that to him, but the poly is a good start.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Forever,

Your attitude about the Poly is the best one. You're not afraid of it and welcome it, that does show alot, but there's no way Awake is going to believe you until he has the results in his hand.

The hardest thing for both of you is going to be after that.

Awake will STILL doubt that he knows everything. You have to understand this going forward. Don't take the stance "But I passed the Poly". 

Unfortunately the pain of the betrayal manifests itself in many ways and one of them is doubt so even if everything LOGICALLY says for him to believe you now. He still might not. Be patient and understanding, it's all you can do.


----------



## CEL

Forever,

You are doing everything you can do, all you have to do it keep it up. People are always leery of those that change never sure if it is true or not. And given the history Awake will be far more leery than that however as long as you keep up and keep you head high you will be okay no matter what happens. Remember the changes you are making are not only for him but for yourself. I think you are doing good like I said just keep up the good work.


----------



## weightlifter

You know he is now talking about a make out you had with a female friend. That kind of familiarity is not usually spontaneous. What was the maximum intimacy you shared with that woman and when? He alluded to pictures. what was on them?
Groping? Over clothes
Petting? Under clothes
More?

Just came from his thread.


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## Foreversorry

The only thing that ever happened with the friend was the night we all went out and we kissed. I do believe he mentioned that before. Nothing else ever happened, before or after that night. She was a good friend, and alcohol was in play. No excuse, just showing that it wasn't a sober choice. There were no pictures at all, no groping, nopetting, over or under clothes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Foreversorry said:


> The only thing that ever happened with the friend was the night we all went out and we kissed. I do believe he mentioned that before. Nothing else ever happened, before or after that night. She was a good friend, and alcohol was in play. No excuse, just showing that it wasn't a sober choice. There were no pictures at all, no groping, nopetting, over or under clothes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a serious question. How common is just kissing a good friend of the same sex after drinking?

Never happened to anyone in my circle of friend, but maybe we are staid?


----------



## CEL

I saw that post as well. But the real issue is not the past if Forever is being truthful then he knows it all and when the poly comes in then he will get confirmation. All this is just so that they both know the TRUE history the problem the elephant in the room that is causing so much damage and mistrust, is the fallout from this past.

Awake does not believe the change is real because of all the lies and deceit that have happened before he thinks that this will be just like all the other times that eventually she will regress back into her regular patterns. The problem that Forever is going to have is that only time is going to allow her to overcome this distrust only time can prove she is serious and remorseful. And that is something that Awake is not sure he wants to give her, and given the past I can understand.

What has the said about divorce it seems like he wants one either way? Can you try to work out a deal like sign the papers but date them for a year out so that you have the time to show him? Again I think you are doing the right things the problem is that he may not give you the time to prove it to him. Good luck.


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## Foreversorry

The only thing that ever happened with the friend was the night we all went out and we kissed. I do believe he mentioned that before. Nothing else ever happened, before or after that night. She was a good friend, and alcohol was in play. No excuse, just showing that it wasn't a sober choice. There were no pictures at all, no groping, nopetting, over or under clothes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foreversorry

Its NOT common to kiss friends. I know that. And I wasn't saying that alcohol was an excuse for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SoulStorm

Foreversorry said:


> The only thing that ever happened with the friend was the night we all went out and we kissed. I do believe he mentioned that before. Nothing else ever happened, before or after that night. She was a good friend, and alcohol was in play. No excuse, just showing that it wasn't a sober choice. There were no pictures at all, no groping, nopetting, over or under clothes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Was this before year 7?

And it was more than just a kiss..awake says tongue and all "right in front of him"


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Trying to save what's left*



MattMatt said:


> This is a serious question. How common is just kissing a good friend of the same sex after drinking?
> 
> Never happened to anyone in my circle of friend, but maybe we are staid?


I don't know. There's nothing I like better than getting trashed and giving old Ralph the big smoocheroo. Can't get used to that beard though.


----------



## bandit.45

MattMatt said:


> This is a serious question. How common is just kissing a good friend of the same sex after drinking?
> 
> Never happened to anyone in my circle of friend, but maybe we are staid?


Hit any bar any Friday or Saturday night along the California coast and you will see hot chicks making out with a bunch of guys whooping and whistling. It's a bar gag that drunk chicks like to do to get the boys riled up. A nice Yank invention.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CEL

Okay I can say I have seen this happen well a ton of times many of the people where in committed relationships and it was just ploy for attention. Really not much to see here. How many of you have NOT seen two girls do this?


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## SoulStorm

CEL said:


> Okay I can say I have seen this happen well a ton of times many of the people where in committed relationships and it was just ploy for attention. Really not much to see here. How many of you have NOT seen two girls do this?


Doesn't matter if we have seen this, what matters is it horrified her husband when she did it. She did it without regards to how he might have felt about it. And being drunk doesn't excuse disrespecting your spouse. It would be a different thing if he didn't mind..but obviously he did...read his thread.


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## CEL

SoulStorm said:


> Doesn't matter if we have seen this, what matters is it horrified her husband when she did it. She did it without regards to how he might have felt about it. And being drunk doesn't excuse disrespecting your spouse. It would be a different thing if he didn't mind..but obviously he did...read his thread.


I am going to take this not as an attack. So lets answer the actual questions that you are asking me. Yes I have read his thread. Yes she did do this but in his thread she also did not do it again. Yes she went on to cheat but this particular behavior did not continue. He states that she did continue the GNO and talking to the friend but he never witnessed another episode. And it is not disrespecting your spouse if you have no idea how they are going to take it, if my girl was kissing another I could care less does that mean she needs to ask me first? No she can do it and if I have problem I will chime in then if she does it again it is disrespect. This does not mean every behavior as obviously cheating is not covered but given how common this is I would expect people to do it and then be told to stop not ask permission.

Now his question is if she DID do something with the friend. She says no. He really won't know until the poly. The point I am making is she did what a LOT of people do if she had not cheated after the fact this would not even be a concern. The fact is that she did CHEAT and did LIE not every facet of her life was dedicated to cheating. Now if the poly comes out that she was cheating then okay start going at it but at this point given what she has written and what she has to lose can we make a simple assumption that THIS time was really just something that people do.

In these stories of WS we tend to look at EVERYTHING they do as indicative of cheating behaviors even when said behavior has very little to do with the actual cheating. I believe that this is one of them. Now I do have friends that kiss and hug many of my friends are very affectionate and NO they do not cheat they are just that way. I also know drunken girls who like to make out with other girls to stir guys up. She did this ONCE was told not to and did not do it again to ANYONES knowledge. Lets wait for the actual poly before we stir a pot with ingredients we don't even know.


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## Will_Kane

Girls nights out (or guys nights out) to pickup bars is disrespectful in and of itself. Two things happen in pickup bars - drinking and hooking up.

If you were making out with your girlfriend, you likely had many times making out with a guy. That is my opinion based on knowing many married women who went on fairly frequent girls nights out to pickup bars.

Alcohol decreases judgement and increases libido. These are pretty well-established medical facts. 

There are many things you can do on a girls night out. You can go to a comedy club, a movie, out to dinner, to a show, to a concert, bowling, skating, shopping - heck, you don't even have to do it at night, you can go to brunch on a Sunday morning if catching up and talking to your girlfriends is what it's all about. Choosing to go to pickup bars makes a pretty clear statement about what you are interested in - and it ain't in your husband and your marriage. At best, it says you like to receive attention from other men, at worst it says you are looking to hook up. Neither shows respect for your husband. 

If your entertainment of choice is to go to pickup bars, what does that say about your love and respect for your husband and your marriage? What does it say about your values?


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## SoulStorm

CEL said:


> I am going to take this not as an attack. So lets answer the actual questions that you are asking me. Yes I have read his thread. Yes she did do this but in his thread she also did not do it again. Yes she went on to cheat but this particular behavior did not continue. He states that she did continue the GNO and talking to the friend but he never witnessed another episode. And it is not disrespecting your spouse if you have no idea how they are going to take it, if my girl was kissing another I could care less does that mean she needs to ask me first? No she can do it and if I have problem I will chime in then if she does it again it is disrespect. This does not mean every behavior as obviously cheating is not covered but given how common this is I would expect people to do it and then be told to stop not ask permission.
> 
> Now his question is if she DID do something with the friend. She says no. He really won't know until the poly. *The point I am making is she did what a LOT of people do if she had not cheated after the fact this would not even be a concern.* The fact is that she did CHEAT and did LIE not every facet of her life was dedicated to cheating. Now if the poly comes out that she was cheating then okay start going at it but at this point given what she has written and what she has to lose can we make a simple assumption that THIS time was really just something that people do.
> 
> In these stories of WS we tend to look at EVERYTHING they do as indicative of cheating behaviors even when said behavior has very little to do with the actual cheating. I believe that this is one of them. Now I do have friends that kiss and hug many of my friends are very affectionate and NO they do not cheat they are just that way. I also know drunken girls who like to make out with other girls to stir guys up. She did this ONCE was told not to and did not do it again to ANYONES knowledge. Lets wait for the actual poly before we stir a pot with ingredients we don't even know.


My response was not an attack..merely a statement. And there is not a stirring of a pot..just repeating what awake is posting and his ponderings.

Yes..so alot of girls kiss each other to rile up the guys, however Awake was not happy about her doing this. The fact that a lot of girls do this does not excuse the fact that she did this at the dismay of her husband.
This was before he knew about the extent of her cheating also and it still horrified him.


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## Rookie4

OK, lets give this college bar crap a rest, shall we? This is a thread about serious issues and it has descended into the trivial. If any of you have been to Mardi Gras, spring break, or any other party location, you have seen this kind of thing so much that it barely draws a crowd anymore. It has little to do with FS and Awake's problems, and is wasted effort. Can we get back to the important issues?


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## awake1

I posted that not as a critique of todays culture but to point out patterns of dishonesty and also because more than kissing this friend was mentioned to an OM in january. I dont know if it was somehow meant to impress this om or if there is truth to it. Or both. This previous incidence matters for both reasons of honesty and because it may have some bearing on what this om was told and the truth of that statement.

After talking to FS about it my opinion is that i doubt it did. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

I agree that you needed to talk about the kissing incident, to get a clear picture. What I disagree with some other posters is using this kissing incident as further evidence of her deceit and promiscuous behavior. Girls kissing girls, for show, in a bar, is evidence of drunken behavior, nothing more.


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## Rookie4

Between the time I divorced my wife and we got back together, I dated quite a bit. On of the Ladies (very , very , hot!) and I went to Mardi Gras and she and another girl ( also very, very , hot!) "made out" in a bar, for the attention, and showed their boobs, along with a lot of other girls. I thoroughly enjoyed the show. Much better than reality TV .


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## LostViking

I agree the making out with another woman thing is being blown out of proportion. 

I was a at a company party a couple years ago. The unmarried crowd stayed after the marrieds had gone home, and, to say the least, the liquor was flowing. There were two secretaries who started making out, with everyone laughing and cheering them on. It was fun to watch and no one took it seriously. 

These gals work together on a daily basis and both are in monogamous relationships. The kissing was a joke, a drunken escapade. I highly doubt these two gals slept with each other that night. 

I have to give FS the benefit of the doubt on this one.


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## bfree

I think kissing another woman is less about the act itself and more about Awake's reactions and feelings about it. Two women kissing...who cares. My wife kissing another woman...I CARE! The fact is she was someone's wife and it shows a lack of respect for her husband. But that was in the past and FS seems to be trying to change how she treats Awake. Whether or not it's genuine or will stick...that's the real question.


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## LostViking

Did FS know that kissing another woman would shock her husband like that? If she did, and she knew that was a boundary for him, *then* he can hold it against her. 

If it were my wife, I would have been shocked yes, but if it were a problem for me I would gather our coats, grab her by the arm, and head out the door for home. 

Then on the way home we would have a nice talk in the car about boundaries.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Trying to save what's left*



LostViking said:


> Did FS know that kissing another woman would shock her husband like that? If she did, and she knew that was a boundary for him, *then* he can hold it against her.
> 
> If it were my wife, I would have been shocked yes, but if it were a problem for me I would gather our coats, grab her by the arm, and head out the door for home.
> 
> Then on the way home we would have a nice talk in the car about boundaries.


Ummm, if you're married should you be kissing ANYONE other than your spouse? Was it necessary for him to tell his wife that kissing someone else was not something a married woman should be doing? Somehow I don't think that's a marital boundary that should need to be stated.


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## Chris989

MattMatt said:


> This is a serious question. How common is just kissing a good friend of the same sex after drinking?
> 
> Never happened to anyone in my circle of friend, but maybe we are staid?


A Christmas do 2 years ago, a female married mother of two friend of mine "snogged" a recently single mother of two. No one really batted an eye lid and we aren't hedonists by any stretch of the imagination.

They were both drunk and it was seen as a bit of a laugh by most people. Even I didn't think much of it and I've called people out on infidelity even before my wife betrayed me.


----------



## LostViking

bfree said:


> Ummm, if you're married should you be kissing ANYONE other than your spouse? Was it necessary for him to tell his wife that kissing someone else was not something a married woman should be doing? Somehow I don't think that's a marital boundary that should need to be stated.


If I have half a brain, and I know that my wife enjoys being drunk and debaucherous, then I would cut her some slack if she did something like that with another woman.

If it were a man?....gloves off.


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## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Ummm, if you're married should you be kissing ANYONE other than your spouse? Was it necessary for him to tell his wife that kissing someone else was not something a married woman should be doing? Somehow I don't think that's a marital boundary that should need to be stated.


Come now, bfree, you can't equate FS lip-locking another girl , with doing the same to the office stud, can you? If this was something unheard of, possibly, but this sort of thing is common among any kind of party crowd, and you know it. The chances that FS and this girl were going to have a lesbian sex fest were slim to none. Awake , you know this as well.


----------



## bfree

LostViking said:


> If I have half a brain, and I know that my wife enjoys being drunk and debaucherous, then I would cut her some slack if she did something like that with another woman.
> 
> If it were a man?....gloves off.


Did he feel it was ok for his wife to be drunk and debaucherous? I don't believe he did. Why would he cut her any slack for this behavior? Because it was a woman? Its disrespectful regardless. So if your wife is cheating with a woman its less serious than if it were with a man? Again, it seems that FS is trying to atone for the way she treated Awake during that period of their marriage. But what she did was disrespectful and should not be swept under the rug in the slightest.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Come now, bfree, you can't equate FS lip-locking another girl , with doing the same to the office stud, can you? If this was something unheard of, possibly, but this sort of thing is common among any kind of party crowd, and you know it. The chances that FS and this girl were going to have a lesbian sex fest were slim to none. Awake , you know this as well.


Actually if you read Awake's thread that was exactly what he thought. There was indications that pictures were taken that showed FS and this woman in sexually suggestive positions. Now FS says that it was not true and they were joking around. But look at it from Awake's perspective and you will see how injurious her behavior was.

And for the record I make NO distinction between cheating with a man or a woman. Therefore it would be hypocritical of me to excuse a lip lock with a woman as something less than a lip lock with a man.


----------



## awake1

Rookie4 said:


> I agree that you needed to talk about the kissing incident, to get a clear picture. What I disagree with some other posters is using this kissing incident as further evidence of her deceit and promiscuous behavior. Girls kissing girls, for show, in a bar, is evidence of drunken behavior, nothing more.


You might have missed where I said there were things discussed with an other man involving FWW and this female friend that was way more than kissing. 

FWW back in january told OM she was going to do things with this woman and offered OM pictures of it. NOT KISSING. (I don't know how many times I need to say that lol) The kissing with this female was back in 08. Think more hardcore ***** porn than harmless debauchery. And this is ONE GNO out of probably a hundred. I have no record of the others, and i'm smart to know this probably wasn't the first time something like this was mentioned. Again, this info is from one GNO, I have no clue what happened on the other 75 or 100 or whatever. That was my hangup.

The only reason it matters is because it might have been evidence that those remarks to this OM were more than just "joking".

Almost every GNO FWW went with this female friend.

Again though, I don't think at this point anything happened there after talking to FS. 

As for the topic of culture: Girls making out is pretty normal and i've seen it 100 times. It was my wife swallowing another womans head that shocked me. It's not something major at this point, and is a small pebble in a big pond.

What DID bother me was lying, back in 08 and now. If she did something and lied about it, it would rightly make me angry.



Let me repeat it again: FWW told OM in January she was having sex with her female friend. This is the same friend she made out with in 08 and who had gone out with her every time. This conversation is ONE conversation from ONE GNO. It's all I have, and I do not know but can assume with logic it was not the first time this type of conversation happened given that she had been cheating for well over a year at that point.


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## LostViking

Then add the kissing incident to the question list on the polygraph.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## awake1

bfree said:


> Actually if you read Awake's thread that was exactly what he thought. There was indications that pictures were taken that showed FS and this woman in sexually suggestive positions. Now FS says that it was not true and they were joking around. But look at it from Awake's perspective and you will see how injurious her behavior was.
> 
> And for the record I make NO distinction between cheating with a man or a woman. Therefore it would be hypocritical of me to excuse a lip lock with a woman as something less than a lip lock with a man.


The pictures would have been graphic not suggestive. (hardcore) I think some information was lost in my attempt to sanitize it.


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## LostViking

Why isn't FS here giving her side?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## awake1

LostViking said:


> Why isn't FS here giving her side?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She took the kids swimming. I'm at work (its friday so )


----------



## LostViking

It's good for her to star getting used to doing things with the kids by herself. She is probably going to be doing a lot more of that now that divorce is imminent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

CEL said:


> Okay I can say I have seen this happen well a ton of times many of the people where in committed relationships and it was just ploy for attention. Really not much to see here. How many of you have NOT seen two girls do this?


I haven't.


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## bfree

awake1 said:


> The pictures would have been graphic not suggestive. (hardcore) I think some information was lost in my attempt to sanitize it.


I know. I was trying not to exaggerate.


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## awake1

bfree said:


> I know. I was trying not to exaggerate.


Ahhh I was just trying to make sure there wasnt a lot of confusion.


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## Rookie4

LostViking said:


> If I have half a brain, and I know that my wife enjoys being drunk and debaucherous, then I would cut her some slack if she did something like that with another woman.
> 
> If it were a man?....gloves off.


"debaucherous" ? Geez, Vike, who talks like that in the 21st century?


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Actually if you read Awake's thread that was exactly what he thought. There was indications that pictures were taken that showed FS and this woman in sexually suggestive positions. Now FS says that it was not true and they were joking around. But look at it from Awake's perspective and you will see how injurious her behavior was.
> 
> And for the record I make NO distinction between cheating with a man or a woman. Therefore it would be hypocritical of me to excuse a lip lock with a woman as something less than a lip lock with a man.


bfree, I can't imagine getting worked up by party behavior like this. If you would get bent out of shape over this kind of silly sh*t, it says more about your security issues than it does about her behavior.


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## Rookie4

MattMatt said:


> I haven't.


 Where do you live? I could probably point out to you a place to view the show.


----------



## Rookie4

OK, Awake, what I'm trying to get at is that You KNOW she cheated with men, right? Did you actually see any pictures of her in Lesbian antics? So all you have to go on is one kiss and a spurious message , which may or may not have been a joke. So which do you think is more important? The fairytale lesbian thing or the REAL cheating with men? Instead of wasting time on trivial cr*p, I think you would be better off paying attention to the real issues. Let me give you a hint about something. If you search your memory for every single past example of her doing questionable things, you will probably find them, but they won't change the major issues one little bit. You already know enough to make your decision to R or D.


----------



## Summer4744

Awake1. Like rookie4 has mentioned I would be cautious with R because of her backsliding on her promises. 

The fact that she says she will do anything for you and then tries to back out of it shows that she is more into trying to game the system in her favor than trying to win you back. A good spouse will not try to hide things or back out of things that are important to your recovery after they stray because doing so is a sign that they are in the marriage for themselves. 

Instead of focusing on this, your WW was testing you to see how much she could get away with. But why do you think this will change? It is more likely she caved to keep ou around, but over time she will start proving for weakness again.

I would D and then let her try to win you back. Why put yourself through all the self doubt?


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## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> bfree, I can't imagine getting worked up by party behavior like this. If you would get bent out of shape over this kind of silly sh*t, it says more about your security issues than it does about her behavior.


So you'd be okay with your wife behaving like that? I wouldn't but I guess everyone has their own ideas of acceptable marital behavior.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> OK, Awake, what I'm trying to get at is that You KNOW she cheated with men, right? Did you actually see any pictures of her in Lesbian antics? So all you have to go on is one kiss and a spurious message , which may or may not have been a joke. So which do you think is more important? The fairytale lesbian thing or the REAL cheating with men? Instead of wasting time on trivial cr*p, I think you would be better off paying attention to the real issues. Let me give you a hint about something. If you search your memory for every single past example of her doing questionable things, you will probably find them, but they won't change the major issues one little bit. You already know enough to make your decision to R or D.


I'm not answering for Awake but he has said he feels that FS is being truthful about this particular situation after speaking to her. I think it has more to do with whether or not he has the full truth after years of lies and months of TT. He really can't even begin to decide if he wants to R unless he knows everything that went on and all the secrets have been revealed. That's why he continues to probe for answers.


----------



## Foreversorry

OK I am here. If you read back a few, I had given my side of the story. Yes a few years ago I made out with a friend, no nothing else ever happened beyond that, and yes, I had TOLD the OM things but they never happened either. No pics, and nothing to even take pics of.
As for the comment that I need to get used to doing thongs with my kids, ftr, I ALWAYS did things with them, this is nothing new.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SoulStorm

Foreversorry said:


> OK I am here. If you read back a few, I had given my side of the story. Yes a few years ago I made out with a friend, no nothing else ever happened beyond that, and yes, I had TOLD the OM things but they never happened either. No pics, and nothing to even take pics of.
> As for the comment that I need to get used to doing thongs with my kids, ftr, I ALWAYS did things with them, this is nothing new.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not to belabor this, however you do understand Awake's concern about this considering the track record you held?

How can he be certain other than your word that nothing else happened on other GNO's besides that one.

It isn't about the making out with the friend in the grand scheme of things. He didn't like you doing that, however it is your integrity on other GNO's that are in question.

I guess the lie detector may be helpful in alleviating this.
I really hope it does.
Even though I am straight forward..I do hope you can fix your marriage and I do hope you have permanently changed. Time will tell.


----------



## LostViking

Foreversorry said:


> OK I am here. If you read back a few, I had given my side of the story. Yes a few years ago I made out with a friend, no nothing else ever happened beyond that, and yes, I had TOLD the OM things but they never happened either. No pics, and nothing to even take pics of.
> As for the comment that I need to get used to doing thongs with my kids, ftr, I ALWAYS did things with them, this is nothing new.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wasn't implying you are not an attentive or doting mother. 

My point was that since your husband is unenthused on R, you need to be ready to go it alone and get the mindset going that you will be spending more time with the kids without Awake there to help you. The more I read of Awake's comments over the last couple of days, he seems checked out. I went into this with a lot of hope for you two. That diminishes every day when I read Awake's texts. It seems to me he is giving up on this, and there are some very bitter people here who would love for him to do so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## awake1

Rookie4 said:


> OK, Awake, what I'm trying to get at is that You KNOW she cheated with men, right? Did you actually see any pictures of her in Lesbian antics?


The night she offered pictures, there were picture attachments sent through email. I don't know what 2 of the pictures were. She doesn't remember sending those pics.


Rookie4 said:


> So all you have to go on is one kiss and a spurious message , which may or may not have been a joke. So which do you think is more important? The fairytale lesbian thing or the REAL cheating with men? Instead of wasting time on trivial cr*p, I think you would be better off paying attention to the real issues. Let me give you a hint about something. If you search your memory for every single past example of her doing questionable things, you will probably find them, but they won't change the major issues one little bit. You already know enough to make your decision to R or D.


 I'm not looking for ghosts. When I see a message offering pics of sexual acts to another person, it obviously warrants investigation. That's not trivial. 

I concluded awhile ago that nothing happened maybe you missed that.


----------



## Acabado

awake1, I've changed my mind on this. You are right, this thing with her GF fits the pattern and it's worth to investigate more.
Hope you get a great polygrapher and every single of your questions get an answer.


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## Rookie4

bfree said:


> So you'd be okay with your wife behaving like that? I wouldn't but I guess everyone has their own ideas of acceptable marital behavior.


I don't have a wife. But if Sweetie ever did anything like this, I might not like it all that much, but I wouldn't go apesh*t about it either.


----------



## Rookie4

Foreversorry said:


> OK I am here. If you read back a few, I had given my side of the story. Yes a few years ago I made out with a friend, no nothing else ever happened beyond that, and yes, I had TOLD the OM things but they never happened either. No pics, and nothing to even take pics of.
> As for the comment that I need to get used to doing thongs with my kids, ftr, I ALWAYS did things with them, this is nothing new.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So, why would you tell the OM something like this? Are you interested in experimenting with Swinging or something? Have you ever had Lesbian sex? It don't mean sh*t to me, but it might be something that Awake needs to know. You are pretty much a loose cannon, aren't you?


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## Rookie4

LostViking said:


> I wasn't implying you are not an attentive or doting mother.
> 
> My point was that since your husband is unenthused on divorce, you need to be ready to go it alone and get the mindset going that you will be spending more time with the kids without Awake there to help you. The more I read of Awake's comments over the last couple of days, he seems checked out. I went into this with a lot of hope for you two. That diminishes every day when I read Awake's texts. It seems to me he is giving up on this, and there are some very bitter people here who would live for him to do so.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely right, Vike. FS, I feel like you can have a very good chance to R, but only if Awake wants it, and you do the heavywork involved in regaining your honor and his love and trust..


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## Rookie4

awake1 said:


> The night she offered pictures, there were picture attachments sent through email. I don't know what 2 of the pictures were. She doesn't remember sending those pics.
> 
> 
> I'm not looking for ghosts. When I see a message offering pics of sexual acts to another person, it obviously warrants investigation. That's not trivial.
> 
> I concluded awhile ago that nothing happened maybe you missed that.


I would be a lot more worried by her "loss of memory" than you seem to be.. I'm pretty sure that is a load of cra*p. She doesn't remember sending pic of lesbian antics to the OM? I'm betting she remembers pretty much everything she sent to the OM. FS, if you ever want to really reconcile with Awake, you have GOT to stop bullsh*tting.


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## Rookie4

Acabado said:


> awake1, I've changed my mind on this. You are right, this thing with her GF fits the pattern and it's worth to investigate more.
> Hope you get a great polygrapher and every single of your questions get an answer.


I agree, Acabado. I don't give a sh*t about some stupid bar antics, and Awake shouldn't either. It is her continually playing fast and loose with the truth, that should bother Awake more. I'm beginning to feel that she is TTing bigtime.


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## seasalt

I think she was trying to make herself even more appealing to the other guy by showing something that women think all guys like.

Awake, you should deal with what she does and says now and keep your ducks in a row, your powder dry, your eyes and ears open and any other cliches there are about being ready to "pull the plug" on your marriage if she deviates off the "straight and narrow".

Of course this suggestion is only offered if you can still look at her and spend time with her with love for her. I don't have first hand experience but I imagine that it's not looking at her and wondering what she's thinking but having her look at you and her knowing what you're thinking.

Good luck,

Seasalt

P.S. to Forevesorry - I try only to post to the original poster but this thread has gotten somewhat jumbled please accept my apologies.


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## warlock07

Rookie4 said:


> OK, Awake, what I'm trying to get at is that You KNOW she cheated with men, right? Did you actually see any pictures of her in Lesbian antics? So all you have to go on is one kiss and a spurious message , which may or may not have been a joke. So which do you think is more important? The fairytale lesbian thing or the REAL cheating with men? Instead of wasting time on trivial cr*p, I think you would be better off paying attention to the real issues. Let me give you a hint about something. If you search your memory for every single past example of her doing questionable things, you will probably find them, but they won't change the major issues one little bit. You already know enough to make your decision to R or D.


Look man, I respect you for how you dealt with your marriage and wife's infidelity but you shouldn't expect that everyone is the same as you are. People are different. They are going to have different opinions. I won't say "attack" but you are putting down every poster who has a different opinion that you.



> If this was something unheard of, possibly, but this sort of thing is common among any kind of party crowd, and you know it. The chances that FS and this girl were going to have a lesbian sex fest were slim to none. Awake , you know this as well.


How do you know that ? 


FWIW, some people are not OK with their spouses being bar sexual. You might be, but not every one is comfortable with such scenarios and there are many couples that would consider this cheating.


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## warlock07

awake1 said:


> The night she offered pictures, there were picture attachments sent through email. I don't know what 2 of the pictures were. She doesn't remember sending those pics.
> 
> 
> I'm not looking for ghosts. When I see a message offering pics of sexual acts to another person, it obviously warrants investigation. That's not trivial.
> 
> I concluded awhile ago that nothing happened maybe you missed that.


Yeah, looks like further trickle truth. 

FS, you might think that further truth might damage your chances to R but it is exactly the opposite. He is already in the worst case scenario. You already physically cheated with another man and had repeated EA's. If it is anything that can help your marriage at this point, it will be awake's belief that he can trust you again. 

Respect him enough to let him make his own decisions. If you have to lie to keep him in the marriage, there is no point. The doubts will haunt him and make both of your lives miserable


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## Rookie4

warlock07 said:


> Look man, I respect you for how you dealt with your marriage and wife's infidelity but you shouldn't expect that everyone is the same as you are. People are different. They are going to have different opinions. I won't say "attack" but you are putting down every poster who has a different opinion that you.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that ?
> 
> 
> FWIW, some people are not OK with their spouses being bar sexual. You might be, but not every one is comfortable with such scenarios and there are many couples that would consider this cheating.


Dude, I never said that I was comfortable with it, nor did I say that Awake should be comfortable with it. what I said was that it is fairly common and isn't an indication of a woman being lesbian. Plus I said that Awake's problems are much worse than stupid party cr*p, like this, and he should concentrate on his real problems , instead of his imaginary ones.


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## Rookie4

Thsi thread ha veered off of Awake's real issues and has spent too much time on college spring-break cr*p. I'm not going to discus the Lez kiss any more. It's too trivial.


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## Rookie4

warlock07 said:


> Look man, I respect you for how you dealt with your marriage and wife's infidelity but you shouldn't expect that everyone is the same as you are. People are different. They are going to have different opinions. I won't say "attack" but you are putting down every poster who has a different opinion that you.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that ?
> 
> 
> FWIW, some people are not OK with their spouses being bar sexual. You might be, but not every one is comfortable with such scenarios and there are many couples that would consider this cheating.


Dude, I think we are wasting Awakes time with this Lez thing, and say so. I'm not attacking anybody. The only attacks I 've seen is yours. I have my opinion and you disagree, so be it.


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## treyvion

bfree said:


> Actually if you read Awake's thread that was exactly what he thought. There was indications that pictures were taken that showed FS and this woman in sexually suggestive positions. Now FS says that it was not true and they were joking around. But look at it from Awake's perspective and you will see how injurious her behavior was.
> 
> And for the record I make NO distinction between cheating with a man or a woman. Therefore it would be hypocritical of me to excuse a lip lock with a woman as something less than a lip lock with a man.


It is good and fun... However it IS disrespectful to the spouse, and drunken "fun" like this leads to more fun which leads to cheating.

It's how it starts. If the spouse asks why did you have them looking like a fool like that, then they are "wrong".


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## awake1

Wow this got off topic fast. Forget the kiss. Anyways: 

There were 6 recent pics exchanged with this OM (they were recent at the time). 3 of which were that night in january. One of those pics FWW sent OM a picture of her hair. Two of the other ones, I don't have any idea about. No clue what they are and I only know they were sent that evening/night (not sure when exactly)

FS doesn't remember sending those couple pics and after going over the timelime from that night I'm unsure anything could have happened. She chatted with OM every other minute (literally). Except around 12am. (i found out at 1am) So there's a block there of an hour where something COULD have happened. I do not know when the pictures were sent, only that it was that evening or night. Then again I could be missing conversation on the friends phone. (FS told OM her camera was broke earlier. She told him she would ask me to look at it (LOL!). later that evening when she offered pics to OM he asked if her camera was broke. She said yes, but she could use her friends. FS later said she only told him that so she wouldn't have to send pics. Considering she had just sent one of her hair it's all very strange.)

The OM never commented on receiving other pictures like "omg nice" or anything. Just chatting as usual. There were phone calls however. 

But there was still time to send pics. Again, I don't really think anything happened that night. I'm 70% sure. OR i'm in denial.


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## awake1

warlock07 said:


> Yeah, looks like further trickle truth.
> 
> FS, you might think that further truth might damage your chances to R but it is exactly the opposite. He is already in the worst case scenario. You already physically cheated with another man and had repeated EA's. If it is anything that can help your marriage at this point, it will be awake's belief that he can trust you again.


I only ever wanted the truth. There is little difference between 1 ONS and 5 (to a point). What matters is if the person is ready to be truthful and if the disrespect through lying is over.


warlock07 said:


> Respect him enough to let him make his own decisions. If you have to lie to keep him in the marriage, there is no point. The doubts will haunt him and make both of your lives miserable


My gut has been right for over 2 years. I knew what was going on i just didn't want to see it. I also knew when she was still lying, and I think that's still the case. 

Eventually my instinct will be wrong, but how can I bet against the track record?


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## Rookie4

awake1 said:


> Wow this got off topic fast. Forget the kiss. Anyways:
> 
> There were 6 recent pics exchanged with this OM (they were recent at the time). 3 of which were that night in january. One of those pics FWW sent OM a picture of her hair. Two of the other ones, I don't have any idea about. No clue what they are and I only know they were sent that evening/night (not sure when exactly)
> 
> FS doesn't remember sending those couple pics and after going over the timelime from that night I'm unsure anything could have happened. She chatted with OM every other minute (literally). Except around 12am. (i found out at 1am) So there's a block there of an hour where something COULD have happened. I do not know when the pictures were sent, only that it was that evening or night. Then again I could be missing conversation on the friends phone. (FS told OM her camera was broke earlier. She told him she would ask me to look at it (LOL!). later that evening when she offered pics to OM he asked if her camera was broke. She said yes, but she could use her friends. FS later said she only told him that so she wouldn't have to send pics. Considering she had just sent one of her hair it's all very strange.)
> 
> The OM never commented on receiving other pictures like "omg nice" or anything. Just chatting as usual. There were phone calls however.
> 
> But there was still time to send pics. Again, I don't really think anything happened that night. I'm 70% sure. OR i'm in denial.


Awake, it seems to me that at this point, it doesn't really matter what was in those two pics, what matters is that FS is clearly evading the issue and continuing to lie about it. It has become a test of wills between you 2. This was in January, right? Unless she is mentally ill, she remembers those pics vividly, but doesn't want to tell you about them. I think you really need to lay the law down to her, right now and predicate your willingness to R on her being completely honest, INCLUDING those pics. If you let her she will trickle truth you to death, so it is better to nip it in the bud, now, rather than later, for your own sanity. I don't think she is as remorseful as she says she is, or this would not be an issue. She is playing you, put a stop to it.


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## Foreversorry

There is no more TT. At all. I'm not hiding anything, holding anything back, or avoiding anything. I am remorseful and doing everything that I can do. I honestly do NOT remember any pics from that night, if I did, I would say so. I have no reason to hide anything anymore. What's the point?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Sometimes there ISN'T a point. Sometimes we do what we do because we do it. If a person has a lifelong habit of lying to avoid punishment, they don't even think about it before the lie comes out. Because they've been doing it for 20, 30, 50 years and is as natural as breathing. 

Is that you? No idea. But it doesn't hurt to take a hard look at yourself and see if it fits. If so, THAT must be addressed in therapy, to have any hope of stopping it.


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## bfree

Foreversorry said:


> There is no more TT. At all. I'm not hiding anything, holding anything back, or avoiding anything. I am remorseful and doing everything that I can do. I honestly do NOT remember any pics from that night, if I did, I would say so. I have no reason to hide anything anymore. *What's the point?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because maybe those pics represent something that you believe awake cannot and will not be able to get over?


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## warlock07

FS, if you have nothing else to hide, just notice what kind of position you put awake in because of the infidelity.


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## bfree

Foreversorry said:


> There is no more TT. At all. I'm not hiding anything, holding anything back, or avoiding anything. I am remorseful and doing everything that I can do. I honestly do NOT remember any pics from that night, if I did, I would say so. I have no reason to hide anything anymore. What's the point?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See the problem you have is one of credibility. Awake cannot truly trust anything you say due to your past actions. Additionally he has proof that pics were sent that night. One he can account for but two he cannot. Coupled with the conversation he knows that occurred he has doubts that you are being truthful and in all honesty he has every right to doubt your veracity doesn't he? How do you explain the fact that pics were sent but you have no recollection of sending them. You've been around long enough to understand the term gaslighting right?


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## SoulStorm

Foreversorry said:


> There is no more TT. At all. I'm not hiding anything, holding anything back, or avoiding anything. I am remorseful and doing everything that I can do. I honestly do NOT remember any pics from that night, if I did, I would say so. I have no reason to hide anything anymore. *What's the point?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The point is Awake's gut is telling him something else and from the outside looking in, it does appear shady.
The point is not really about the pics, the point is about can he believe you. You haven't been being "honest" that long, so how can he be sure of honesty now.
Misdirecting him from this information also proves shady.
Like saying things like.."I don't remember" or "what's the point?" 
Those 2 statements show either lack of accountability or lack of the truth.
I hope you are telling the truth..for all that it's worth I would like for you and Awake to be able to succeed...but that going to rely on you more than him.


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## Foreversorry

My 'what's the point' comment was meant as what is the point of lying? There isn't point to it, I am very well aware of how much my cheating and the lying after the fact has hurt Awake. I get how he feels like he can't believe me when I say that I am being truthful and that I'm not lying anymore. I'm nit misdirection him or anyone from anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

What are you doing specifically to prove that to him?


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## Chris989

I thought FS has stopped posting for a bit there.

I think that her continuing to post and reply to points goes some way to prove that she is committed and willing to face up to consequences.

None of us really know what is going on, but I think it would be harder - anonymous forum or no - to deal with what is thrown at her on here than to trickle truth her BS.

It speaks volumes to me that my ex, a trickle truth liar extraordinaire - point blank refuses to post on here or any other site for fear of "being pulled apart". 

The forum may be anonymous, but it still hurts when people say bad things and it would be easy for a lie to be unpicked by the many experienced people on here.


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## LostViking

I agree. I think FS has made a big step by coming on here and taking her licks. Whether or not it means anything to Awake is up to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foreversorry

The only specific thing I can do is to do the poly. Other things are just being totally open with everything. There are absolutely no secrets, no passwords, nothing is even possibly being hidden. Open book.
As to my posting a bit less often, ATM our computer is down and the only access I have to the boards is my phone. And its a pain to reply from. I do still read everyday. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CEL

Foreversorry said:


> The only specific thing I can do is to do the poly. Other things are just being totally open with everything. There are absolutely no secrets, no passwords, nothing is even possibly being hidden. Open book.
> As to my posting a bit less often, ATM our computer is down and the only access I have to the boards is my phone. And its a pain to reply from. I do still read everyday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I keep saying the same things and that is that you are doing everything you can do, if nothing else you can be proud that you are fighting for your marriage. I know this thread got a MASSIVE side track on the whole photo thing "just weird as Awake seemed to have no major issue". Now the only thing left is the whole poly thing I want you to know I may not post much but I think you are doing great and am rooting for you. :smthumbup:


----------



## Will_Kane

Foreversorry said:


> The only specific thing I can do is to do the poly. Other things are just being totally open with everything. There are absolutely no secrets, no passwords, *nothing is even possibly being hidden*. Open book.
> As to my posting a bit less often, ATM our computer is down and the only access I have to the boards is my phone. And its a pain to reply from. I do still read everyday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is always possible to hide stuff, even if you grant access to devices and share passwords.


----------



## MattMatt

Rookie4 said:


> Where do you live? I could probably point out to you a place to view the show.


Britain. 

Though I do know a straight woman who tried lesbian sex 
just to see what it was like. But they didn't do it in public.


----------



## MattMatt

Rookie4 said:


> I don't have a wife. But if Sweetie ever did anything like this, I might not like it all that much, but I wouldn't go apesh*t about it either.


Really? I lost my first long term girlfriend to another woman. So I take this more seriously than some seem to.


----------



## awake1

CEL said:


> I keep saying the same things and that is that you are doing everything you can do, if nothing else you can be proud that you are fighting for your marriage. I know this thread got a MASSIVE side track on the whole photo thing "just weird as Awake seemed to have no major issue". Now the only thing left is the whole poly thing I want you to know I may not post much but I think you are doing great and am rooting for you. :smthumbup:


Until I have a eureka moment like sherlock holmes, i believe her story about that night.

It's not that I think she isn't telling the truth about this particular thing. 

It's that I feel like something is STILL missing from her narrative of events. 

I don't know what's missing from her story of everything, I just know something is. Maybe it's another guy, maybe it's a ONS. I don't know. I just feel like there's more and I cannot shake that feeling. 

I do believe her about a great many things when it comes to details. So it's not that I just blankly disbelieve everything she says. 

_Something_ is missing. Whether it's a little or a lot I can't say.


----------



## CEL

awake1 said:


> Until I have a eureka moment like sherlock holmes, i believe her story.


And to me that is all that really matters if you have no issues I have no issues. Hope YOU and Forever are doing well got my fingers crossed for you.


----------



## turnera

Foreversorry said:


> The only specific thing I can do is to do the poly. Other things are just being totally open with everything. There are absolutely no secrets, no passwords, nothing is even possibly being hidden. Open book.
> As to my posting a bit less often, ATM our computer is down and the only access I have to the boards is my phone. And its a pain to reply from. I do still read everyday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let him know where you are 24 hours a day. Set aside one hour each night, for now, to answer any questions, even if you have to answer the same question 500 different ways (you know, how they question suspects 100 times to see if they slip up and give a different answer). Install a GPS on your phone that he can use to track you. Find and book the MC and the IC and go religiously. Go to his parents and siblings and sit down and tell them the truth of what you did and ask their forgiveness. Write out a VERY VERY detailed timeline and give it to him, so he can reconcile what you said you did with what HE had going on. Read one marriage book a month and give him a 'book report' on what you learned from it and what you will be incorporating into the marriage if he agrees. Go to a lawyer and have him draw up a postnup that says if he ever catches you cheating again, you agree to give up rights to all assets you two have accumulated. 

That ought to be good for a start.


----------



## Rookie4

Foreversorry said:


> There is no more TT. At all. I'm not hiding anything, holding anything back, or avoiding anything. I am remorseful and doing everything that I can do. I honestly do NOT remember any pics from that night, if I did, I would say so. I have no reason to hide anything anymore. What's the point?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You sent 3 pics, you remember 1 pic, but can't remember the other 2 pics you sent at the same time? Sorry but that doesn't seem possible.


----------



## Rookie4

OK, FS, if you really don't remember those 2 pics, then it is your job to find out what they were and how they got sent and tell Awake every detail. This is what we mean by "heavy Lifting". It is ALL on you to prove yourself trustworthy. Just saying so or giving Awake platitudes like "I don't remember ' won't get it, you better be doing some detective work to find out about those pics, and give him EVERY bit of information about any and all extra- marital encounters you may have had. And this is BEFORE you do the poly. Remember every piece of info that you forget and Awake finds out about afterwards, will be the same as another affair. We all want you to succeed, but I don't think you have fully grasped the work you must do, nor do I think you are telling Awake the COMPLETE STORY.


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## mineforever

Awake1...I have read through the different threads of yours and Foreversorry. I do want to say that even though many have grilled her mercalicly which is to be expected on this forum ...especially since many of us are BS' s, she showed great perseverance and effort / dilligence in trying to respond to the constant fire of criticism and accusations thrown at her. There were many times I wanted to post and say give her a break...because she really took a beating. My WS would not have made it through the first day of the grilling she took...so I guess what I am saying is ...give her credit where credit is due. She did come on here and try to talk to us BS' s that took courage and fortitude that most would not have had.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LostViking

mineforever said:


> Awake1...I have read through the different threads of yours and Foreversorry. I do want to say that even though many have grilled her mercalicly which is to be expected on this forum ...especially since many of us are BS' s, she showed great perseverance and effort / dilligence in trying to respond to the constant fire of criticism and accusations thrown at her. There were many times I wanted to post and say give her a break...because she really took a beating. My WS would not have made it through the first day of the grilling she took...so I guess what I am saying is ...give her credit where credit is due. She did come on here and try to talk to us BS' s that took courage and fortitude that most would not have had.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Too little too late though.

If you read Awake's thread, he is about ready to pull the plug.


----------



## Foreversorry

He (as well as others) have given me credit for taking the slight beating on here. But that is nothing compared to what I need to be doing.Any truly remorseful WS can sit behind a screen and take proverbial beatings online. Its whether or not they do the things in the real world. Most of the time, what's said on here to a WS is NOTHING like what gets said by their BS. Was there anything that was told to me on here that got to me? A couple, yeah, but oh well. Not like I don't deserve it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1

Foreversorry said:


> He (as well as others) have given me credit for taking the slight beating on here. But that is nothing compared to what I need to be doing.Any truly remorseful WS can sit behind a screen and take proverbial beatings online. Its whether or not they do the things in the real world. Most of the time, what's said on here to a WS is NOTHING like what gets said by their BS. Was there anything that was told to me on here that got to me? A couple, yeah, but oh well. Not like I don't deserve it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Forever, I have been following your story - just work on you and become a better person - and let the future take care of itself. your husband is hurting in a big way and he thinks you are not working to fix things - just do the work. Whether you R or D you can work to improve yourself. Good luck.


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## LostViking

I have done a complete 180 in terms of my opinions regarding your predicament. I think I will bow out. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foreversorry

All I can say Viking is thank you for your input up until now. It is appreciated...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

For what its worth, me and the old lady went throught some heavy sh1t and we are making it.

Its been over 3 years since d day and at every passing day her actions are speaking louder then any words.


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## mineforever

Foreversorry said:


> He (as well as others) have given me credit for taking the slight beating on here. But that is nothing compared to what I need to be doing.Any truly remorseful WS can sit behind a screen and take proverbial beatings online. Its whether or not they do the things in the real world. Most of the time, what's said on here to a WS is NOTHING like what gets said by their BS. Was there anything that was told to me on here that got to me? A couple, yeah, but oh well. Not like I don't deserve it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Foreversorry...yes what you did was wrong but what I heard in your posts was a level of remorse and some sence of ownership for your actions. Unfortunately I know to well what Awake1 is going through...my husband put me through it for 20 yrs....more Ddays than I care to count. When you have been through the level of betrayal your husband and I have it does something to you that most people can not understand and what it takes to recover from that is pretty heroic in itself. You can recover and a marriage can survive the level of betrayal you and my husband perpetuated though. My hubby went a little further than you from what I have read of your threads...it took a committment on both my husband and my part to whether the storm no matter what, and it was excrutiatingly painful. There were times he had to litterly pick me up off the floor I was so paralazed by the pain and days where he had to unpack my bags as I was packing when I decided I had, had enough....then there were days he couldn't look at me without starting to cry, saying he was so sorry he hurt me....days where he wished I would just leave him because he felt I deserved better....there were many dark days we had to go through. For hubby and I it was worth it, its a life time journey and we cherish the relationship we have today (10 yrs later) and work hard to protect what we have because we know the price to be paid for screwing it up.

Whatever happens with the two of you I wish you the best. I pray that Awake1 can forgive and let go of the past and heal....he deserves to be happy. I wish him peace in the future. I wish you peace and happiness also Foreversorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

BTW, FS, did you ever discover what those 2 pics were? Or do you still not remember?


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## realist

Foreversorry said:


> I have had *6 online EAs involving txts as well as pics, and 1 EA/PA in a span of 2 years before DDay.* After DDay, I had made promises that I would do ANYTHING to make us 'work' if he would just give me that chance. *He did give me that chance. Several times. And each time, I broke promises*, and TT'ed him to death. Ive put him through hell. By the time I was done TTing, Ive put everything out there, and kept promises, he gave me one last shot. But in this last chance, he is very uncertain, and rightfully so. Not only was I lying to him during the cheating, *but EVERY oppertunity he gave me to come clean, I threw away.*


so out of the blue the old you is dead?

lol

If the guy is such a great husband to you..how come u didnt respect him enough to communicate all your problems and 'needs' before all these affairs?If you were so unhappy,why didnt u leave?ask to separate?suggest couples counseling?
What was the cheating suppose to do?solve all your problems?
Lets see,you cheated multiple times,with multiple men
Lied bout your cheating ways over and over again

You didnt confess..HE FOUND OUT

All of a sudden you've morphed into this new,faithful,respectful,loyal wife??

Awake..just go ahead and divorce this woman please.
She didnt cheat with 6 men for no reason..must have been some chemistry and passion there.
She has changed for the better?good..she should go apply all these new changes in a different relationship.

Wasnt for awake finding out bout all these affairs..you'd probably be on OM number 20 right bout now


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## CEL

Still hoping for you every day FS. Keep your head up remember that it takes a choice every day to be a better person.


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## Doc Who

FS
I am sure there is a part of you that wants to keep awake1, but is this fighting against his rejection really a reason to stay in a marriage where truly, you could not have cared less about it?

You both admitted that you were a terrible wife and mother. Awake paints a frightening picture of an entitled woman with zero respect for her husband AND HERSELF.

If you want to change, words mean nothing. Actions do. Your actions are not even close to what is needed. But you know that. Yet, there is something inside you that says it is not worth it.

Please, quit stringing awake along. The man was totally broken. You destroyed him as well as anyone possibly could. Now he finding his way back. If you really love him, quit the half-assed attempts. 

Either do, or do not.

Awake will take it from there.

But this stringing him along with promises of being a better person and IC and some weeks posting here and then nothing else is cruel to him. Perhaps you want to be cruel to him. If so, at least tell him that. be honest with him and then let him decide what to do.

Then fix yourself. You are still a mother who needs to get healthy for her kids, if nothing else.


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## turnera

FS, it would take you a good 4 or 5 YEARS of consistent, NON-CHEATING behavior before awake would ever be able to assume you're not lying every time you speak. You have shown NO ACTIONS to back up your flowery words. Why should he give you another chance? 

If you REALLY loved only him, if you REALLY have learned your lesson and are a changed person, you would be willing to SPEND those next 4 or 5 years ALONE, waiting on the side, and proving yourself to him every chance he gives you. Could you do that? I doubt it. But knock yourself out. Can you go even six months without talking to another man?


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## r0r0bin

Godspeed the divorce


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## Foreversorry

My not posting lately has nothing to do with my thought process, or lack of true remorse, or being scared off or whatever else. It is because posting from my phone is worse than horrible, as well as getting prepped for a new job. Awake will also tell you that. As for what I am 'doing', I am doing whatever I can that is possible ATM. I have no insurance ATM which means I have at least 3 weeks before I get to speak with a counselor. Books, right now, I do not have the means to get. I am concentrating right now on what I CAN do, and what will be done when its possible. As I have said before, yes, I AM a different personal than I was, and I it is and will be an ongoing process. I am not 'stringing' him along, if I was, I would be doing nothing at all. I did not do all those things over night, and I'm not going to be a totally new, 'fixed' person over night either. But it is happening, and I am doing everything I can with what I have to help him see this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chris989

Foreversorry said:


> My not posting lately has nothing to do with my thought process, or lack of true remorse, or being scared off or whatever else. It is because posting from my phone is worse than horrible, as well as getting prepped for a new job. Awake will also tell you that. As for what I am 'doing', I am doing whatever I can that is possible ATM. I have no insurance ATM which means I have at least 3 weeks before I get to speak with a counselor. Books, right now, I do not have the means to get. I am concentrating right now on what I CAN do, and what will be done when its possible. As I have said before, yes, I AM a different personal than I was, and I it is and will be an ongoing process. I am not 'stringing' him along, if I was, I would be doing nothing at all. I did not do all those things over night, and I'm not going to be a totally new, 'fixed' person over night either. But it is happening, and I am doing everything I can with what I have to help him see this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For what it's worth; you sound genuine to me. Good luck.


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## Foreversorry

Chris989 said:


> For what it's worth; you sound genuine to me. Good luck.


Thank you. I truly appreciate that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cre8ify

> *My* not posting lately has nothing to do with *my* thought process, or lack of true remorse, or being scared off or whatever else. It is because posting from *my* phone is worse than horrible, as well as getting prepped for a new job. Awake will also tell you that. As for what *I* am 'doing', *I *am doing whatever *I *can that is possible ATM. *I *have no insurance ATM which means *I* have at least 3 weeks before *I *get to speak with a counselor. Books, right now, *I* do not have the means to get. *I* am concentrating right now on what *I* CAN do, and what will be done when its possible. As *I* have said before, yes, *I* AM a different personal than *I* was, and *I* it is and will be an ongoing process. *I* am not 'stringing' him along, if *I* was, *I *would be doing nothing at all. *I* did not do all those things over night, and *I'm* not going to be a totally new, 'fixed' person over night either. But it is happening, and *I* am doing everything *I *can with what *I *have to help him see this.


In a helpful spirit, I share the observation that empathy does not seem to be your strong suit. He, him, we, and us may be more constructive than me, my and I as you try to meet awake where he is. At one point you said, "I am convinced I can win you back" or something like that which seemed to be a strange thing to say from "the inside out". Consider what that same thought sounds like to awake from "the outside in".


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Trying to save what's left*



Foreversorry said:


> My not posting lately has nothing to do with my thought process, or lack of true remorse, or being scared off or whatever else. It is because posting from my phone is worse than horrible, as well as getting prepped for a new job. Awake will also tell you that. As for what I am 'doing', I am doing whatever I can that is possible ATM. I have no insurance ATM which means I have at least 3 weeks before I get to speak with a counselor. Books, right now, I do not have the means to get. I am concentrating right now on what I CAN do, and what will be done when its possible. As I have said before, yes, I AM a different personal than I was, and I it is and will be an ongoing process. I am not 'stringing' him along, if I was, I would be doing nothing at all. I did not do all those things over night, and I'm not going to be a totally new, 'fixed' person over night either. But it is happening, and I am doing everything I can with what I have to help him see this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry but that doesn't cut it. If you are anywhere near a medium to larger city you can find counseling for little or no money. There are also support groups that you could join that cost nothing but time. Most books can be purchased on half.com for less than a dollar including His Needs Her Needs, Surviving An Affair, The 5 Love Languages etc. Maybe you can sacrifice that extra morning cup of coffee for a few days huh? Not to mention that TAM is free and if you don't want to post out in the open you have already been advised to start posting in the Reconciliation thread here in CWI to receive support and advice from both WS and BS alike. Instead you have chosen inaction and excuse making.


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## turnera

Foreversorry said:


> Books, right now, I do not have the means to get.


Really? They started charging at the library?


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## Rookie4

FS it is this kind of attitude that leads Awake to believe that you are not truly remorseful. You continue ti evade and to practice "selective memory" which is another name for Trickle truth. You have never come 100% clean to Awake so why should he invest any more of his life in you? The examples of the "lack of funds", that keeps you from getting professional help, plus the mysterious unremembered photos are proof to him that you still aren't willing to do the hard work of reconciliation, and makes him think that there is much more to your infidelity than you have admitted to. I think he is quite right to end it with you.


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## realist

She is not trying to save the marriage,she is trying to save the lifestyle she is accustomed to.
-Serial cheater
-Compulsive liar
-Selfish
-Disrespectful
-Manipulative
-Boundary Issues
-Entitlement issues

another chance for what?somehow you believe you deserve a chance at proving you've changed.but at whose expense?your husband?and when you relapse to your selfish,demonic ways then what?one more chance?one last time


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## jnj express

Hey forever-----you are a poster child for coming on here, facing down antagonism, and trying to learn, and better yourself

That said---your H, posted last month that he still is "pretty sure", there is something that is not "out there", something you did, but are still keeping hidden

You state everything is out ---you have nothing more to tell

Is there a big elephant in the room tween the two of you---I know there is no trust, and its very possible there never will be, but you both are pretty much at odds, over whether "everything is out there on the table"-----is that causing either/both of you problems

I would like to hear from you as a wife/mother---why you found a need to go to meatmarkets, when you went on GNO's, there are literally hundreds of things to do with your friends, that do not include looking for men---stretching this further---you do not live on an island, and you do have female friends---they are gonna invite you out in the future---How do you handle that type of situation---it will arise, in discussions with your H---especially if your friends, do ask you to go out with them---

--then if you are allowed to go with your friends---indicating your H, does at some point in the future trust you to some extent, or he just doesn't want to lock you in a tower---what do you do if the "girls" want to go to a meatmarket, as part of the night--------also what do you do, in re: to alcohol, on your possible future nights out with friends--------just questions, that will come up in the future, as I said, you are not on an island---and you do need to interact with others!!!!!


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Trying to save what's left*



realist said:


> She is not trying to save the marriage,she is trying to save the lifestyle she is accustomed to.
> -Serial cheater
> -Compulsive liar
> -Selfish
> -Disrespectful
> -Manipulative
> -Boundary Issues
> -Entitlement issues
> 
> another chance for what?somehow you believe you deserve a chance at proving you've changed.but at whose expense?your husband?and when you relapse to your selfish,demonic ways then what?one more chance?one last time


I don't think it's even a matter of proving she can change as much as its proving she can care. It's the difference between acting like a good wife and actually wanting to BE a good wife. She keeps coming up with excuses. No money, new job, no insurance, no library. It just shows that her marriage and husband is not THE priority in her life. It's just another role to play.


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## Rookie4

This is spot on. Unfortunately, FS hasn't even begun to place her marriage and family above her own interests. She evades at every step of the way. It's no wonder that Awake can't trust her.


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