# Can a "gentleman" become dominant?



## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

It is a common theme in the Sex in Marriage section that women (most women actually) like a little or a lot of domination in the bedroom from time to time.

Wives have posted about wanting their "gentleman" husband to become more dominant. But the men have been raised to treat a woman like a lady. Posters insist that a man like this can't change.

Can a man who is like this change and become dominant enough (without looking fake) to arouse his wife and give her what she needs?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

My SO is both a gentleman and dominant so, IME, it's certainly possible. There's no reason why these traits should be exclusive of one another.


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## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

Yes. As I age and a part of me dies and I become desensitized to other people's feelings, the high-brows gentlemanly approach to women fades as well, and I gradually start behaving in a way that I notice is a turn-on to women.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Being sexually dominating, from a woman's perspective, is about calling the shots, setting the tone, pace and tempo in response to her. Holding a woman's hand a over her head is dominating her actions during sex, holding a woman's elbow as you cross the street is both courtly and subtly dominating. You are guiding her actions in the interest of her safety. IMO, a man who is dominant without the manners, is nothing but a blustering brute!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

moco82 said:


> Yes. As I age and a part of me dies and I become desensitized to other people's feelings, the high-browsed gentlemanly approach to women fades as well, and I gradually start behaving in a way that I notice is a turn-on to women.


Perhaps the older we get, the more important it is to cut to the chase?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

ntamph said:


> It is a common theme in the Sex in Marriage section that women (most women actually) like a little or a lot of domination in the bedroom from time to time.
> 
> Wives have posted about wanting their "gentleman" husband to become more dominant. But the men have been raised to treat a woman like a lady. Posters insist that a man like this can't change.
> 
> Can a man who is like this change and become dominant enough (without looking fake) to arouse his wife and give her what she needs?


Ok, here we go with definitions again.

I will give you my perspective. To me a gentleman has a solid balance of traits. He is NOT a Nice Guy. He is a Good Guy first but if you trifle with him he will dominate you. He is a quality man who does not need to show his dominant side by default because he is both considerate AND highly confident that if he needs to he can invoke a more seriously side.

A gentleman is often highly educated but for sure very capable and in general someone you can trust. But do not trifle with them. They will kick your @$$.

You may define a gentleman as some differently. A gentleman can be easy going and considerate because he chooses to be so but can invoke the Kracken at will.

But as the say many men ( Gentlemen most certainly ) want a lady on the street and a freak in the bed. I do not see a true gentleman as a "dandy" but a man that women admire and lust for at the same time. He definitely is a bad boy in some perspective as he has his own code and mind. A free thinker. He knows his way with women.

This is my opinion. YMMV.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> Ok, here we go with definitions again.
> 
> I will give you my perspective. To me a gentleman has a solid balance of traits. He is NOT a Nice Guy. He is a Good Guy first but if you trifle with him he will dominate you. He is a quality man who does not need to show his dominant side by default because he is both considerate AND highly confident that if he needs to he can invoke a more seriously side.
> 
> ...



This works too.


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## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Perhaps the older we get, the more important it is to cut to the chase?


That is certainly a factor, but I also find that whereas in my youth I was afraid that a woman might find an act or phrase humiliating, I care much less now. As if I used up too much of my caring in past years and now there isn't enough to go around.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ntamph said:


> It is a common theme in the Sex in Marriage section that women (most women actually) like a little or a lot of domination in the bedroom from time to time.
> 
> Wives have posted about wanting their "gentleman" husband to become more dominant. But the men have been raised to treat a woman like a lady. Posters insist that a man like this can't change.
> 
> *Can a man who is like this change and become dominant enough (without looking fake) to arouse his wife and give her what she needs?*


I can only speak from our own situation...as I have wanted MORE from my husband in this area (at times).....I suppose just reading your question...may conjure up different ideas in the minds of women/ even men......what I see as "Dominance" is like a Rape Fantasy ..(not a bad thing even if it may sound so)....or a man just TAKING a woman for what he wants...not so much worried about her pleasure , but his lust is so high, he can't stop himself...and gives her a good pounding.....him telling her what he wants, going to do to her.. aggressively...and with expectation she will be salivating over him. 

My husband struggles with these things...he has not been able to change his stripes or act like this AT WILL....just because I have wanted him too...... not in the ways some women talk about their husbands taking charge - like spanking their ass (I'd be there telling him Harder , Harder, Beat me!).. then we'd end up laughing... even pulling my hair, he's too gentle, again, I'd be saying "Harder, Harder, Pull it out baby! "... what's a girl to do! 

My 1st thread here was >> 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...inate-enough-wives-who-how-reverse-roles.html

I have found...this will always be a struggle for him... it's not how he is geared, but it's still OK.. we have a wonderful sex life, but it's more sensual / emotionally geared / Romantic......

I have found I care FAR MORE about *his DESIRE* over *his Dominance* with me....so long as I know he wants to be there, thrives on Love making...I am happy. 

I did buy this book -written specifically for men wanting to ALPHA it up- in the bedroom... Just F*ck Me! - What Women Want Men to Know About Taking Control in the Bedroom (A Guide for Couples)  ....we only got so far in it....haven't picked it back up.. he could relate to everything written - to the type of man he is / the mindset they carry in this thing. 

He's never been the aggressive type...would never care to be a Boss....prefers the background... he is tipped on the Beta scales a bit....but I don't feel this is an insult -like everyone else seems to... He is MAN enough and manages to keep me very happy ...which has to speak for something.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

My husband also is both a gentleman and (usually) the dom personality in the bedroom...

I agree with entrophy3000 that some of us women want a 'good' man for daily life but a 'bad in a good way' man in the bedroom.

I think it's one of those situations where you really CAN have it all


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Say what?



> IMO, a man who is dominant without the manners, is nothing but a blustering brute!


This


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

ntamph said:


> Wives have posted about wanting their "gentleman" husband to become more dominant. But the men have been raised to treat a woman like a lady. Posters insist that a man like this can't change.
> 
> Can a man who is like this change and become dominant enough (without looking fake) to arouse his wife and give her what she needs?


I cannot speak for all gentlemen, but I have not been able to imagine myself behaving in such a manner. As much as I attempt to redefine these terms, they still remain mutually exclusive to me. 

This paradox defines the core of the issue that brought me here. When my LW of 19 years attempted to define the conditions of her boudoir boredom and it's possible solutions, she did so by confessing to behavior and activities she engaged in prior to our having met. 

Although these disclosures were albeit educational and certainly informative, her admissions prompted a certain re-evaluation of character. 

My first considerations upon her disclosures were not of the great opportunity they provided (which was her intent) but were instead the beginnings of a panic that anyone may have ever recognized her while we were together in public. 

Recognizing this, I desperately hoped that further inquiry would uncover her experiences as a private youthful indiscretion or two. That was not the case. 

I understand her intent, but the nature of her forthcomings were so numerous and various that it is only my steadfast resolve to honor my vows that permits me to remain. A gentleman, after all, remains a gentleman, no matter the company he keeps.


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

MrVanilla said:


> A gentleman, after all, remains a gentleman, *no matter the company he keeps*.


That's one of the most ungentlemanly things one could say about one's wife.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

The subject matter of this thread is a perfect example of why the advice given to men, re " Just be yourself " cannot and does not work in most if not all situations.

There are times some women want a man who's domineering in bed.
My wife is one who from time to time wants to be thrown across the bed , restrained or pinned against the wall ,and all the other rough stuff that goes with it, which gives her a
" _sweet, pleasurable soreness_ " the morning after.
Before marriage I would have never dreamed that she liked that kind of lovin'. However things have evolved sexually and I cannot "_ just be myself_ "and dismiss her urges..

There are times " a man's got to do what a man's got to do " and satisfying his wife exactly in the way she wants to be pleased during sex, is one of those times.

Using physical force in a confrontation to protect her physical being and her dignity, is another.

Being dominant in bed doesn't make you a bully or misogynist , just like physically fighting to protect your wife and family doesn't make you a violent man.
In both cases, the status quo holds.
You can still " be yourself " ie: a gentleman , and do these things , when necessary.

Human beings are multi dimensional and very complex.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ntamph...I don't think "most" women really want to be "dominated", I think they want to have some rough play. There is a difference, but typically people call it "dominated" for lack of better words.

I get all the fun rough play I want, yet there is never any "domination" or "submission" going on.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Being sexually dominating, from a woman's perspective, is about calling the shots, setting the tone, pace and tempo in response to her. Holding a woman's hand a over her head is dominating her actions during sex, holding a woman's elbow as you cross the street is both courtly and subtly dominating. You are guiding her actions in the interest of her safety. IMO, a man who is dominant without the manners, is nothing but a blustering brute!


Thank you. It took me a long, long time to realize that what the ladies here meant by the word, 'dominant' is very different from the image the word conjures up in my mind.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Thank you. It took me a long, long time to realize that what the ladies here meant by the word, 'dominant' is very different from the image the word conjures up in my mind.


Happened to me too. lol.

Maybe we need a " TAM-_Thesaurus_ ?"


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> ntamph...I don't think "most" women really want to be "dominated", I think they want to have some rough play. There is a difference, but typically people call it "dominated" for lack of better words.
> 
> I get all the fun rough play I want, yet there is never any "domination" or "submission" going on.


Yes, I completely agree with this. Well, apart from the last paragraph but if I got all the rough play I wanted there would not be elements of domination or submission as such.


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## Devotee (Sep 22, 2013)

I agree, the word domination can sometimes conjure up the wrong image. For me it's not black leather and whips, etc 

Its definitely a mind set and means that the man is in control and is directing the action. It translates into things like him telling me what to do, or making me say certain phrases, or putting my hands where he wants them. Or conversely taking my hands out of the picture and not allowing me to touch him for a time. He's the one in control. And sometimes that is very appealing. Not all the time. Just sometimes. 

My husband is a gentleman in and out of bed, always. He gets pleasure from my pleasure. He never aggressively takes what he wants. He's just not that type. And so there are times when him taking the reigns and making it mentally more about himself is super attractive. But I would not want that all the time in the bedroom- or out of the bedroom.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ClimbingTheWalls said:


> That's one of the most ungentlemanly things one could say about one's wife.


Some of our spouses were abusive, lying crooks who never loved us, and you can't say anything?


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Some of our spouses were abusive, lying crooks who never loved us, and you can't say anything?


Sure, uncoupled from the "holier than thou" attitude of the rest of that post. But this thread is probably not the place for that discussion.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> The subject matter of this thread is a perfect example of why the advice given to men, re " Just be yourself " cannot and does not work in most if not all situations.


I disagree.

And this is why:



> Human beings are multi dimensional and very complex.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I think "just being yourself" can work - providing you're being the best self you can possibly be. If someone is lazy, sloppy and not prepared to work on themselves, learn and grow, that 'self' is unlikely to cut it.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Cosmos said:


> I think "just being yourself" can work - providing you're being the best self you can possibly be. If someone is lazy, sloppy and not prepared to work on themselves, learn and grow, that 'self' is unlikely to cut it.


Aye

I prefer this mentality


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

limabeans said:


> I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept or why some people can't get the VAST canyon between 'being an abusive a-hole' and being an assertive man.


The answer to that might not be welcome, but it's simple. 

Some men, (Myself included) do not measure assertiveness in terms of how people weaker than ourselves are physically treated. 

I wear a size 11 wedding ring. If my wife wanted her ass slapped in the 'heat of passion' I'd be happy to. But it would be for her pleasure, not mine. A man who derives pleasure from that is not 'assertive' in my book. -He's a coward.

I'm sorry if that's offensive to anyone, but I can't change the way I feel about it.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> The answer to that might not be welcome, but it's simple.
> 
> Some men, (Myself included) do not measure assertiveness in terms of how people weaker than ourselves are physically treated.
> 
> ...


Interesting.

My wife doesn't like being physically hit anywhere about her body , at anytime. Be it during sexual play or normal rough play we sometimes have outside of sex. 

Being hit is a huge turn off for her, I have large hands, but they _are_ a turn on for her.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ocotillo said: "If my wife wanted her ass slapped in the 'heat of passion' I'd be happy to. But it would be for her pleasure, not mine. A man who derives pleasure from that is not 'assertive' in my book. -He's a coward."


I think this is another misunderstanding.

I have been with some very nice rough and tumble lovers who can deliver a good throw down or spanking. They don't "get off" on hurting me (though I'm not hurt anyway, but it might look like I am)...they "get off" on how much fun I am having being thrown around or paddled.

When women express that they want to be handled this way, they aren't saying they want to be with a sadist. They are saying they want their bodies jostled and "woken up" by a man's aggressive, lusty nature.

I have never been with a man or woman who is a sadist...it is a totally separate thing.

That's why I don't think the word "dominate" is what most women want. We just don't have better words to use to describe what we DO want.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

When I was in HS, I saw this scene in a movie. It became the "meat" of my fantasies afterward for many years. The movie was called Continental Divide. It was about a lady who lived alone in the mountains and studied eagles. She had a lover who was a mountain man. They had a fun game where she would run through the woods and he would chase her and catch her and they'd do it right there in a meadow. In this scene, a man who is writing an article about her (John Belushi) is staying with her, and was suspicious of what was going on so he followed her out in the woods to see what she was up to. At first he saw her mountain man stalking her and got alarmed about it...but soon he saw what the two were really up to.

Anyway...the raw passion and fun between the mountain man and woman was so obvious in this scene. There is no nudity, nothing graphic. Just the PASSION and raw lust were so enticing. I vowed to myself when young that I would experience this much passion and lust in my life...that I didn't want anything less.

This the scene. Sorry, there is a 30 second ad first, and the good part doesn't start until about 1:29...but if you want to see what many women think is fun and rough and tumble and lusty goodness....take a peek.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNAVsV-Jqfg&feature=endscreen


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes...individual preferences abound...in this scene though, they both know the chase is just for fun. There's no actual fear involved, it is a pre-planned event. Which is different than not even expecting it and being chased.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Oh also...a lot of women won't be into his wild, mountain man look, beard, etc!

So guys...don't take this clip to be a literal translation. Just the "flavor" of rough and tumble and playfulness.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

where....It is funny, because I know some women who WANT to be afraid. That doesn't appeal to me, but I kind of get it. I just wouldn't be afraid at all in the chasing scenario, so it doesn't read that way to me.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I knew a girl who wanted her man to wear vampire teeth and actually chase her around, catch her, and then bite her with them! LOL! To me that was goofy...but to her, it made her heart race.

I know another gal whose hubby is on a SWAT team. Sometimes they set up sex games where she is being held captive by bad guys and he has to rescue her...they set it up so that she is actually feeling terror before he busts in to save the day. I'm not sure what they do to get her to feel terror...maybe he plays the bad guy first, ties her up, then rushes off to change into his SWAT gear to save her? :scratchhead:

All I know is it sounded fun!


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> where....It is funny, because I know some women who WANT to be afraid. That doesn't appeal to me, but I kind of get it. I just wouldn't be afraid at all in the chasing scenario, so it doesn't read that way to me.


Funny thing about that. I can't possibly be the only man who noticed that a roller coaster ride at an amusement park, a scary movie or a walk through one of those 'haunted houses' you see here and there around Halloween would often make a date much more 'friendly.'


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

A while ago, I went on a "hookup" site. I never contacted anybody and was never contacted by anybody. It is kind of like looking at porn except that the women are real and not just airbrushed, plastic surgery enhanced fakes. What stuck out to me was the abundance of younger women that wanted the rape fantasy. I would read this quips about it and think, "why would you someone want this?". Is it really a rape if you want it?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

tyler...the rape fantasy is very common. Though as for women on hookup sites...I'm not sure about that, they might actually want something a bit more on the sadist side. Most women want the rape fantasy with someone we love and trust, not a stranger.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> tyler...the rape fantasy is very common. Though as for women on hookup sites...I'm not sure about that, they might actually want something a bit more on the sadist side. Most women want the rape fantasy with someone we love and trust, not a stranger.


That's quite possible. I am not judging. It is just not what I expected to read. Society tells us that women want to be respected and then you read that they are craving being back-handed, tied up, and raped. Plenty of men can fulfill that desire. Even if I was single, I would not be able to do that.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

tyler...you may not know this, but "many" men actually can't pull that off. It is a quite advanced sexual fantasy that requires a lot of skill and understanding. 

The men you might be referring to, men who actually DO slap women around because they are idiots...those men aren't normally allowed into a woman's fantasies. Those men have far too many issues.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> tyler...you may not know this, but "many" men actually can't pull that off. It is a quite advanced sexual fantasy that requires a lot of skill and understanding.
> 
> The men you might be referring to, men who actually DO slap women around because they are idiots...those men aren't normally allowed into a woman's fantasies. Those men have far too many issues.


I read quite a few where the women explicitly stated that they did not want to make out before hand or anything. They wanted the men to walk in unannounced and proceed with assaulting them and overpowering them. Pain was a necessary condition of the sex.

It is their words, not mine. Again, if that floats their boat then go on ahead. I prefer a less sadistic approach. Call me old-fashioned but I do not conflate sex with giving pain.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

That's why I said...women on a hookup site are up for something different than most women/wives.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> That's why I said...women on a hookup site are up for something different than most women/wives.


If I would have seen one or two, I would have paid it no mind. However, it came up quite regularly. I thought being Sadistic/Masochistic was a bit rare especially in younger women but apparently it is not. Again, it works for them so who am I to judge. 

Anyways, that is all that I have to say about that.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> The men you might be referring to, men who actually DO slap women around because they are idiots...those men aren't normally allowed into a woman's fantasies. Those men have far too many issues.


Not with normal, healthy, sane women. I have a good friend who is a psychologist in a penitentiary in the Midwest. He's told me (And I have no reason to doubt him) that the most violent, notorious criminals get enough weekly mail to fill a postal tote. Declarations of undying affection. Offers of marriage. Offers of sex. Offers to bear the criminal's child. 

The world can truly be a strange place sometimes.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes octillo...that is a phenomenon that has been covered many times. It is known, however, that those women are not normal, healthy and sane. So I don't think those women should come into this equation (this thread) at all. We can't try to figure out why people do crazy things...why bother?

However, normal every day women/wives DO have a rape fantasy. It does NOT include actual rapists and killers and men on hookup sites, however.

tyler...If that surprises you, you obviously haven't checked out Fetlife yet. There are soooo many true kinksters that are into real pain, real sadism, etc. 

But again...that is a fringe element and most people can't relate...so it doesn't really apply to the married woman who wants her man to grab her and throw her down, such as the clip I posted.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes octillo...that is a phenomenon that has been covered many times. It is known, however, that those women are not normal, healthy and sane. So I don't think those women should come into this equation (this thread) at all. We can't try to figure out why people do crazy things...why bother?


I wonder sometimes if the two are jumbled together more than we realize. I could have an absolute field day with the Christian Grey character and some of the wishes expressed right here on TAM.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> When I was in HS, I saw this scene in a movie. It became the "meat" of my fantasies afterward for many years. *The movie was called Continental Divide.* It was about a lady who lived alone in the mountains and studied eagles. * She had a lover who was a mountain man. They had a fun game where she would run through the woods and he would chase her and catch her and they'd do it right there in a meadow.* In this scene, a man who is writing an article about her (John Belushi) is staying with her, and was suspicious of what was going on so he followed her out in the woods to see what she was up to. At first he saw her mountain man stalking her and got alarmed about it...but soon he saw what the two were really up to.
> 
> Anyway...*the raw passion and fun between the mountain man and woman was so obvious in this scene. There is no nudity, nothing graphic. Just the PASSION and raw lust were so enticing. * I vowed to myself when young that I would experience this much passion and lust in my life...that I didn't want anything less.
> 
> ...


That was funny.... I wonder if the Mountain man talked instead of just Grunted and Roared... he'd be  without the beard... I also hope she wasn't stringing Belushi along. 

Interesting what has formed some of your Passion views.. IN my youth, although I always loved a passionate R rated scene, I used to get annoyed with all the cheating I seen in movies, like it ruined it somehow...if it wasn't between a man and his wife.. I seriously did not like that, even used to complain...but the kicker was... It still excited/ aroused me...so it was a conflict! 

I am a very passionate person... but the softer version...of feeling deeply wrapped up in each other - with high emotion has always been enough for me (I guess they'd call this Romance)... even though in mid life, I did have a desire for some of those "Rape fantasies" - probably better called "Ravishment" fantasies, I don't know. 

Women's Rape Fantasies: How Common? What Do They Mean?
Rape or near-rape fantasies are surprisingly common. 


> Rape or near-rape fantasies are central to romance novels, one of the perennial best-selling categories in fiction. These books are often called "bodice-rippers" and have titles like Love's Sweet Savage Fury, which imply at least some degree of force. In them, a handsome cad becomes so overwhelmed by his attraction to the heroine that he loses all control and must have her, even if she refuses--which she does initially, but then eventually melts into submission, desire, and ultimately fulfillment.
> 
> Romance novels are often called "porn for women." Porn is all about sexual fantasies. In porn for men, the fantasy is sexual abundance--eager women who can't get enough and have no interest in a relationship. In porn for women as depicted in romance novels, the fantasy is to be desired so much that the man loses all control, though he never actually hurts the woman, and in the end, marries her.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ocotillo said: "I could have an absolute field day with the Christian Grey character and some of the wishes expressed right here on TAM."


Does that mean you haven't read the 100 threads that are already on TAM about 50 shades?

It has been discussed and explored many times.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Back to the original post..............

I hope a woman who has the fantasy can see as the guy who could fulfill it one day. That she can think of me in that dominant way if that's what she wants.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Well she won't see you that way if you don't act and behave that way, you know. And by "that way" I just mean the lovely fun agressively lustful love making and whole vibe.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Does that mean you haven't read the 100 threads that are already on TAM about 50 shades?


Actually, believe it or not, I read way more than I talk. 

It's been almost two years, but I recall that for some, the line between fantasy and reality seemed to blur a little bit, specifically when it came to wishes that were expressed to actually be with someone like that in real life.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

For sexually self-aware women it isn't blurred, ocotillo. Just sayin'.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

I consider my self a gentleman, 55 years old, I remarried late in life after a failed marriage. Since remarrying 15 years ago I feel like a teen. I was not getting satisfied in bed really, but in the last couple weeks wife has come around, much more open to me weird things I wanna do,,,wouldn't you like to know....


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

ntamph said:


> Back to the original post..............
> 
> I hope a woman who has the fantasy can see as the guy who could fulfill it one day. That she can think of me in that dominant way if that's what she wants.


The answer to your question is, yes.

I know because I did it.

Here's the important piece. You can't frame your attempt at 'assertive or dominant' from her perspective, it has to be from yours. And then you dial it back, or up, depending upon your partner.

I had to let go of the the very long held, and extraordinarily naive view that 'women don't really like that'. Because ... they do. They REALLY do like that, and odds are you will too. Not all of them all the time, but every once in a while you get the sense or the cue that it's time to try something ... and you can't be timid. You do it. You don't ask her if it's ok in the moment, you don't stop and say 'am I hurting you', you don't ask, 'does that feel good?' You just do it, and pay attention. Pay attention to your response, and to hers. Talk about it after the fact, don't break the moment if the moment is obviously good. On the other hand if she shrieks and screams "WTF are you doing?" well ... take that as a verbal cue. Better to apologize after the fact than ask for permission when it comes to sexual assertiveness.

The first time I grabbed a handful of hair and pulled her head back, I was thinking 'No way is she going to go for this.' She let out a cry, and I immediately let her go and stopped dead ... she was flabbergasted, "Why did you stop? That was amazing."

Boy did I feel like a dope.

It isn't complex unless you make it that way.
Sometimes your smooth like butter and sweet like sugar, and sometimes you hit that sh!t like a ninth inning homerun with the bases loaded.

You want to be respectful, pedestrian and ultimately boring? Go for it. 

There is a reason women had to wear panty liners when reading 50 Shades.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

edited: a post I was responding to went missing...might have been on the wrong thread or something. Carry on.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

where_are_we said:


> YES! YES!! YES!! This!
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> Listen up guys!


I like Deejo's Post too... but it also triggers me....So what are we supposed to do with our men who can't DO this, throw them to the curb ?? 

I doubt there is any woman on this forum who has went to the sheer lengths to persuade (and believe me, I can be a persuasive woman when I want something)....to educate, communicate with enthusiasm & praise even...to make it FUN... worth his while...

BUT...Gotta pick my battles when it comes to this ...I married a wonderful man....he desires me, I have an orgasm every time we have sex...I Love our sex life...intimacy ROCKS me.... why I want him all the time... is my favorite topic under the sun... it never dies... YET....he is not a hair puller, he doesn't push me up against the wall, throw me down on the bed....I do that more so ! 



> *Deejo said: *You want to be respectful, pedestrian and ultimately boring? Go for it.
> 
> There is a reason women had to wear panty liners when reading 50 Shades.


I have called him "*boring*" before in bed wanting some of this sh**.....and he responded by pinning me down and saying *>>* "If you call me boring one more time, I am going to turn into a christian" ...which I busted up laughing ... saying " NO.. I sure as hell don't want [email protected]#" - cause then the porn would have to go and there goes some of our pleasingly "dirty" enjoyment. 

Some men REALLY struggle to *BE* this..(he can't be the only one!)....and it's not because he doesn't love me, or want to please me...... if I buy into this belief again.... The frustration will rise (again)...I'll cause fights with him...which will only make him feel lousy, like he is not good enough.....which is not a place I need to revisit. 

I can't look upon him as less of a man or catch (or boring) cause he is not geared this way... or can't overcome this hurdle... I must look at the BIG picture ...what we do have... And I am - writing this out in this post - basically. 

Just saying.. Yeah us women may want THIS.... but we don't always get what we want - in everything... and must still be able to *accept * & so appreciate what is offered... in Love and marriage. 

Interestingly enough, this is my one & only contention with my husband in this life...which isn't all that damn bad !


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

where_are_we said:


> He is NOT the only one.
> 
> I am glad you found peace with this dilemma. I hope I do.
> 
> Let me ask you this though....you don't tell him what you want to not cause fights and you are trying to not change him. I get that. *But in turn, doesn't that mean that you have to do all the changing?*


 Well there is one plus to this (for us).....that I have realized by reading many stories HERE to how other men are in regards to this "dominance" thing... Let me try to explain...

I am very comfortable slipping into the shoes of the initiating Aggressor in our sex life.... I ENJOY it even, flirtatiously showing him how much I want him, what I want to do to him .. some of my fantasies are taking the shy inexperienced man down... and giving him the time of his life.. and what turns my husband on... JUST THAT sort of scenario [email protected]#$% 

He LOVES the woman coming after him! This fires his jets.. which makes it a JOY for me ! I almost get a HIGH off of this! 

We had a conversation about this a # of times...He has never been one to ENJOY 
*"the chase"*....which really is what dominant males DO... I did a thread in the Men's clubhouse once - but deleted it thinking HE sounded too "strange" after reading so many posts by the men....... So in this way...I have the freedom to fully BE ME..a bit of a Vixen one might say... which offsets this to some degree with us. It's not like we don't have FUN in bed....We DO ! 

Many of those men PREFER "*subtle*" from their women....as this leaves them feeling more dominant in the sexual even... 

Now If I was matched with a man LIKE THAT.... I would feel I had to PUSH a part of who I am and what I flirtatiously want in the moment *DOWN* ...in order to turn him *ON*....and this I do not feel would be ideal for me....with my natural inclination to enjoy arousing him . 

Does this make any sense? But true, a girl likes things shook up once in a while ! I still have my fantasies! 



> You avoid the confrontation so he does not feel lousy, that is admirable. In turn do you feel lousy?


 We've always been able to be *very open* with our feelings with each other (the good, the bad, the ugly...and the mushy)...at every turn... he loves this about ME...and I need a man like that... he is a real GEM... I mentioned this thread to him earlier tonight...how it triggers me...but no ill words spoken..

For us....it is in that *"openness"*...before each other that we can find that *peace*...it may be a struggle for a time (a season)... it's almost like an operation...we have to lay it on the table and cut it apart ...and see what we have....but we eventually get sowed up...and move on. 

The hardest time for me was when my sex drive spiked REALLY HIGH....it was like I felt I missed this in our sex life, his being THIS WAY towards me (married 19 yrs at that point)... I had a real stirring for wanting to experience this sort of thing... but we got through it..with my shaking things up... but yeah, these feelings can spring upon me again...so I need to be careful ...to look at the BIG PICTURE. 



For you Where We Are... -what about your struggle? What are your sexual deal breakers ? What is GOOD, that you thrive on in your sex life? 

See, I can handle this but one thing I couldn't -would be if he didn't *desire *me...that would blow my roof off...or he rebuffed me..ya know... so long as I know he wants to be there, has enthusiasm & passion for US....how can I not be happy? Take THAT away though, it would all fall apart.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Yes, my husband is very dominant in bed. Very. But I love it. I wouldn't want it any other way. I'm very bossy in case anyone couldn't tell, but I'm more of a sub in bed. If you knew my husband, you'd never guess he is this way in bed. He is a Good Guy in public. The award winning model employee and great sibling. In private with me, he is the dominant person and I love it. I honestly don't know where he got it from. I know he doesn't read romance novels aimed at women, but what he says can appear on those pages. 

That's all I'm going to say ...And I feel very lucky.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> ocotillo said: "If my wife wanted her ass slapped in the 'heat of passion' I'd be happy to. But it would be for her pleasure, not mine. A man who derives pleasure from that is not 'assertive' in my book. -He's a coward."
> 
> 
> I think this is another misunderstanding.
> ...


I spank my wife's ass frequently during sex, she never says stop, ow, or wtf, but then again she never says stop it either.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

I have learnt that this is one of those issue where the most important thing is compatibility. A man does not have to be dominant to be a great lover but for me personally I prefer a strong man.

My ex was not a dominant man, he is a very good man but we were not sexually compatible. He is much LD than me and TBH way too timid.

My now partner, Mr H is a far better match for me. He is an amazing man, a good man, intelligent, funny, soft and caring. in the bedroom he rocks my world, pulls my hair, bites me, ties me up and tells me what to do. There is nothing that turns me on more than him telling me to go down on him or whatever it is he wants. He has the balance just perfect, sometimes it is slow and sexy,other times he will pick me up and throw me on the bed.
He has an excellent sense of what to do and when, helps that we are both very HD but more importantly we both enjoy the same type of sex. Sometimes I am the dominant one and he happily lies back and lets me have my way.

There is no wrong or right, the only important thing is compatibility.

Oh and this is a man that is a complete gentleman, holds doors open, cares about me and my needs, is a generous and kind man. But he is strong, successful and very, very masculine. He is the perfect fit for me and I covert what we have together.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

It's even better when the woman bites back, nails dug into your back with her teeth biting on your shoulder while being slammed and rammed against the wall. Fierce resistance always drove me wild... curses, scratches, punches, kicks, slaps, wrestling over dominance... ah good o' make up sex. 

And then you forget whatever the fk you were just fighting about once you both become jelly. Miss it really come to think of it


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

where_are_we said:


> He is NOT the only one.


No, he isn't the only one, and the reasons behind his behavior are going to be specific to _him_. 
The hard part is finding out what they are. 
They have to be willing to try. 

This is what I've found out about me:

There’s more than enough empirical evidence to support the claim that a certain percentage of women find this ‘assertive’ sort of outward behavior from their perspective lover occasionally desirable. 

When I considered the words women (including my LW) often attributed to this idea, it's usually a physical expression of: sexual want, need, lust, passion, or desire. The male’s outward physical actions are in some way perceived by the woman as a validation of her own desirability. 

I don’t have a problem accepting this premise now - because my LW expressed it and I've found verification. 

My problem (and perhaps only _my_ problem) comes from a lifetime of behavioral conditioning. If there were times in my life when I felt strong sexual wants or needs, or experienced lust, passion, or great desire, those feelings were never fulfilled. - Because I was never able to express or fulfill those feelings when I had them, I stopped having them. (appox age 20).

Consider my behavior to that of say Pavlov’s dog (If food is presented, the dog salivates. If you ring a bell rang when the food is presented, eventually the dog salivates at the sound of the bell: an association is formed) then it’s easy to see my learned associations. When: I felt lust, passion, or great desire – those feelings were never fulfilled – since those feelings were never fulfilled - I stopped having those feelings. 

If this is me on one side of the equation, and if my LW on the other side of the equation has formed a behavioral codependent association of ‘assertive male behavior in lovemaking’ as it applies to her own self worth… 

Then you have an excellent picture of my situation - but being able to recognize this 'why' has taken a year of therapy, 
and it's only half the battle.

=)


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

I still for the life of me do not perceive an equivalency between adjectives like "strong" and being rough with someone with less than 1/4 the strength in their hands that you have.

But I'm glad that those who are happy are happy.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I don't get what you just said, ocotillo. "Perceive an equivalency?"


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't get what you just said, ocotillo. "Perceive an equivalency?"


Well, semantically, it's pretty straightforward. Strong is simply the adjectival form of Strength. It's defined basically as, "...having the power to move heavy objects and/or perform other physically demanding tasks". A strong person has strength. How they exercise it is a different subject entirely.

Socially, it's a little more complicated. There are obvious exceptions, but we all know that as a general rule, a size/strength disparity starts to develop between boys and girls, usually right around puberty. And there are always a handful of boys in any given group of males who couldn't handle suddenly finding themselves on the right hand side of the bell curve physically. They confuse the _ability _to do something with the _right_ to do something and revel in the power of doing what they want and taking what they want. In my generation, these were the same boys who couldn't be trusted with an air rifle when they were younger, couldn't be allowed around horses and other livestock, never really had a close relationship with a dog, cat or some other companion type pet that looks to you for protection and comfort. They were the 'Biff Tannens' of the world. 

There is a perversity in the human nature that preserves the genes of people like this. They are the ones most likely to survive a complete breakdown in social order since they have little to no natural respect for the most fundamental tenet of civilized society in the first place. I get that and I understand the attraction. I understand the fun in role playing, erotic games of the genre my wife calls, "Escaped convict and the warden's wife", etc. 

Where I part company with some here on TAM (Apparently) and take exception is when this is described not just as a _personae _that one slips on and off like clothing, but as a real component of one's personality and characterized as a good thing.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ocotillo said: "Where I part company with some here on TAM (Apparently) and take exception is when this is described not just as a personae that one slips on and off like clothing, but as a real component of one's personality and characterized as a good thing."

Ok...I don't read it that way, mostly. I don't read anyone suggesting to anyone else that they actually become a Biff Tannen. I *do* hear that kind of crapola from MMSL fans, but no where else. Everywhere else I hear and read about what women want, sounds more like that clip I posted. Did you watch it?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Well, semantically, it's pretty straightforward. Strong is simply the adjectival form of Strength. It's defined basically as, "...having the power to move heavy objects and/or perform other physically demanding tasks". A strong person has strength. How they exercise it is a different subject entirely.
> 
> Socially, it's a little more complicated. There are obvious exceptions, but we all know that as a general rule, a size/strength disparity starts to develop between boys and girls, usually right around puberty. And there are always a handful of boys in any given group of males who couldn't handle suddenly finding themselves on the right hand side of the bell curve physically. They confuse the _ability _to do something with the _right_ to do something and revel in the power of doing what they want and taking what they want. In my generation, these were the same boys who couldn't be trusted with an air rifle when they were younger, couldn't be allowed around horses and other livestock, never really had a close relationship with a dog, cat or some other companion type pet that looks to you for protection and comfort. They were the 'Biff Tannens' of the world.
> 
> ...


I think I understand well what you're saying Octillo, and that which you speak of confuses me, sometimes as well.
It is a real, not apparent, dichotomy in what society and women say they want and what they _actually_ desire on a visceral level.

And I agree with you, in your last paragraph. 
From a psychoanalytic perspective , it is impossible to drastically alter one's personae at will , unless of course ,psychiatric issues are involved.

But perception is everything.
A person's perception is often times _their_ reality.
Because it works _for them_.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok...I don't read it that way, mostly. I don't read anyone suggesting to anyone else that they actually become a Biff Tannen. I *do* hear that kind of crapola from MMSL fans, but no where else.


Well there is that, but that's not what I had in mind. What I had in mind is the huge contrast between Deejo's description of the tentative way in which he first approached this, and some of the ladies, whose descriptions of their husbands leave you in doubt over whether this is only a bedroom _personae_ or whether this is their real, actual personality. Does that make sense? 




Faithful Wife said:


> Everywhere else I hear and read about what women want, sounds more like that clip I posted. Did you watch it?



The clip from Continental Divide? 

I have to say from a male perspective that there is something about Nell Porter's (Blair Brown's) stiff in the knees, bouncy 'city girl' walk that is both helpless and cute at the same time. But Max (Tony Ganios -- Wasn't he 'Meat' from the Porky's series? LOL) was actually very gentle with her.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Well there is that, but that's not what I had in mind. *What I had in mind is the huge contrast between Deejo's description of the tentative way in which he first approached this, and some of the ladies, whose descriptions of their husbands leave you in doubt over whether this is only a bedroom personae or whether this is their real, actual personality. *


Yup^^^.
But much of it might be subjective.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ocotillo said: "What I had in mind is the huge contrast between Deejo's description of the tentative way in which he first approached this, and some of the ladies, whose descriptions of their husbands leave you in doubt over whether this is only a bedroom personae or whether this is their real, actual personality. Does that make sense?"

No, still doesn't make sense...I don't know about any stories about a real, actual personality of a Biff Tannen as described by any women here who liked it on him. ??

Can you point me to such a story?

ocotillo said: "...was actually very gentle with her."

Right. Because it was the "essence" of his manly attitude and his "handling" of her that was hot...he chased her, he grabbed her, he lifted her above his head...and then they got busy. See? Not Biff Tannen. The "rough" part is the fact that his hands and strength can throw her around...and he did a little bit...yumm.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

In very plain spoken terms, I prefer to think of this dynamic as sexual assertiveness rather than 'dominance'. Although ... I really don't think there is a question that many women, quite often, want their man to orchestrate and execute on what takes place in the bedroom, and that is often framed as dominance.

The words are just that to me at this point. I recognize that the words are important to many people, but not to me. I'm interested in the results and outcomes.

I think SA's husband is a great guy. I don't feel compelled to put down anyones' fundamental nature, or character. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with being a gentle-man unless ... your partner WANTS you at times to not be gentle. With the concern being this becomes an issue.

There is a difference in the guy who is afraid of the outcome of what I call rough, or athletic sex (this was who I used to be) versus the guy, who intrinsically cannot reconcile that kind of behavior as being enjoyable to himself or any potential partner.

I'd wager most guys fall into the former category. For that guy, for me, it was simply a matter of being willing to take the risk of stepping outside your comfort zone, and discovering that your new comfort zone is a whole lot bigger and exciting than you previously imagined.

Communication is STILL the lynch pin. When my partner tells me that she loves it when I order her to do something to me, talk dirty, pin her hands above her head, or (gently) put my hand around her throat, guess what? I do it.

For me, there is something to be said for being able to come 'unhinged'. I don't have to monitor my behavior, what I'm doing, or whether she is ok with it. It enables you to simply enjoy and get completely lost in the moment, and let the moment take you someplace you may NEVER have gone to otherwise.

If you are open to building passionate, erotic, and pleasurable sexual exchanges with your partner, than I believe a simple corollary of that, is she is likely to define your sexual behavior as strong, confident, or dominant.

It's still about her feeling safe and secure, and cherished, to be able to go there with you.

And its pretty damn rewarding for both parties, nothing negative, or chauvanistic about it all. At least not in my 'unhinged' experience thus far.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I'd wager most guys fall into the former category. For that guy, for me, *it was simply a matter of being willing to take the risk of stepping outside your comfort zone, and discovering that your new comfort zone is a whole lot bigger and exciting than you previously imagined.*


Yes^^^, I agree.
Hence my first post on this thread.
Same dynamic exist in the bedroom with my wife & I.

But I think that sometimes some guys , myself included, like to go deeper, and try to reconcile what appears to be some incongruity between what women say they want, and what they actually want.

My experience with my wife was that she wanted rough sex at times, but could not communicate it.

It wasn't something new to me, but I never thought that she would want _that type of sex._

I was more than surprised when for the first time , early in our marriage , during sex , something came out of her mouth and I fyully understood what she meant.

She never uses curse words, but during that time she did. I knew what she wanted without asking and the outcome was unbelievable.
We talked about it after and then the choking , biting ,scratching, fast and hard and so on came into the bedroom.

How was I supposed to reconcile that?
I don't know.
But she fully enjoys it.

That is something I've never heard a woman properly explain, and of course there's a fine line.

But I know for sure, despite what most of them say, they respect and enjoy male dominance in the bedroom. Some more than others.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> No, still doesn't make sense...I don't know about any stories about a real, actual personality of a Biff Tannen as described by any women here who liked it on him. ??


That's not exactly what I have said 

Let me elaborate. I think it's pretty safe to say that very few (If any) women found the Tannen character attractive. Biff was an archetype, and as such, there was almost zero in the way of social veneer. The raging two-year old within was plain for all to see and that's just not attractive at all. Only extremely stupid men actually act that way or let it show to that degree in real life.

But if you take that same basic personality type that I described (i.e. Those who tend to blur the distinction between the ability to take something with the right to take something) and lacquer it up with a sophisticated social veneer, you *do* get a character that women find attractive especially if that social veneer makes the character deeply conflicted. You get a Christian Grey, Edward Cullen, John Harrison, Louis de Pointe du Lac, Loki, etc.

Of course that is just entertainment and not real life, but this is exactly where it can be confusing for some men. Where does fiction end and reality begin? You asked for an example. Here's one from this thread. This isn't intended to pick on Holland or offend her in any way whatsoever:



Holland said:


> A man does not have to be dominant to be a great lover but for me personally I prefer a strong man.
> 
> My ex was not a dominant man, he is a very good man but we were not sexually compatible. He is much LD than me and TBH way too timid. (Emphasis mine)



It _seems_ to me that she is describing a fundamental difference in personality type and equating that with strength. (I hope she will correct me if I am wrong here.)

If that's true, then I guess the answer to this thread may be, "No." It can't be learned. 




Faithful Wife said:


> Right. Because it was the "essence" of his manly attitude and his "handling" of her that was hot...he chased her, he grabbed her, he lifted her above his head...and then they got busy. See? Not Biff Tannen. The "rough" part is the fact that his hands and strength can throw her around...and he did a little bit...yumm.


And I can see that. To me though, there is a helluva difference between the gentle way he held her vs. spanking, hair pulling, ordering her to perform fellatio on him etc. When a man is that much stronger than his partner, being rough simply leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Maybe this ultimately comes down to a difference in the way men view other men and the way that women view those same men and we're never going to resolve it in words. But nobody can say I didn't try


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ocotillo...I guess I still just don't get what you are saying. I don't equate the things you are equating...and yet I do want to be spanked and roughed around.

Don't men enjoy seeing women being ultra sl*tty in porn/fantasy, too? And yet I don't think men actually want women who "act like that in every day real life"....right? Men want to see women who love certain sex acts, but they don't want a woman who is sitting with her mouth gaping open begging for a facial at dinner with his mother.

I really don't see any difference here.

Some women like rough sex. I was already saying on this thread that to me, it isn't about dominance and submission...it is about rough and tumble play. When he pulls my hair, I squeal with happiness and then start laughing. I don't act like I am afraid of him or am going to "obey" him. (Though nothing wrong with that for women who like it).


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Well, semantically, it's pretty straightforward. Strong is simply the adjectival form of Strength. It's defined basically as, "...having the power to move heavy objects and/or perform other physically demanding tasks". A strong person has strength. How they exercise it is a different subject entirely.
> 
> Socially, it's a little more complicated. There are obvious exceptions, but we all know that as a general rule, a size/strength disparity starts to develop between boys and girls, usually right around puberty. And there are always a handful of boys in any given group of males who couldn't handle suddenly finding themselves on the right hand side of the bell curve physically. They confuse the _ability _to do something with the _right_ to do something and revel in the power of doing what they want and taking what they want. In my generation, these were the same boys who couldn't be trusted with an air rifle when they were younger, couldn't be allowed around horses and other livestock, never really had a close relationship with a dog, cat or some other companion type pet that looks to you for protection and comfort. They were the 'Biff Tannens' of the world.
> 
> ...


I would differ with this opinion, but only by shades. While growing up and developing I never had any interest in bullying others or exerting my strength over women. However, I became at some point the "bad boy". This title eluded my attention at the time, but looking back with understanding, it makes sense. I was absolutely unafraid of anyone or any law or rule or system. I tested every boundary just to observe the reactions of people (without bullying). I was interested in girls but honestly, I did not start to figure females out until I met my wife at age 20.

With that being said, I later found out that the majority of girls in my high school were quite more than interested in me. One of the biggest surprises in my life was when the most desirable girl in school let it be known she would like to get to know me "better". This caused an incredible upset in the social structure of our school and one of the biggest seniors picked a fight with me, I was 15.
I believe what was and is so attractive to many if not all women, is that primal "barbarian" element. 
That characteristic is not a persona that I put on and take off. To this day, I am now 42, many people upon meeting me are a bit scared. I am a perfect gentleman but there is a dangerous element of my character that cannot be hidden.
My wife has even been very vocal as I age and soften up a bit, that I not loose that "dangerous" aspect as she is very attracted to it.
In the bedroom..... she likes to start off most of the time being treated like a lady, because first and foremost, she is a lady.

However, when things get moving and she starts getting really into it, there is almost always a time when an animal like hunger/need overtakes her and the only thing that will satisfy her at that point is to be consumed by an overpowering male "demand" for her sex. Anything less than being "taken" at that point just does not cut it, or satisfy her.
There are also some times when my need has been very high to start with and she "succumbed" to my dominance with almost none or no for-play and she has expressed great delight afterwards.
To sum it up, I do not think having some "bad boy" characteristics are really bad at all. You just need to have discipline to let "him" out of the dark cave once in a while and send "him" back when "he" is not needed. 
I think that maybe all men can be more dominant in the bedroom, but maybe they have not made peace with there "dark" side and learned how to let "him" out a little at a time for fun.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

where_are_we said:


> I think that you said the key words about your husband..... "enthusiasm and passion." *This is what is lacking for me from my husband. Because I am not getting this I am beginning to lose my own enthusiasm and passion for him and it just makes the cycle worse. His lack of initiation, enthusiasm and passion makes me feel undesired.*


I just want you to know, from what you said here, I'd feel the same... if your husband RARELY initiates..how can this not take an emotional HIT on you ...as women, so I see it, we were designed to be these "objects of desire" for our men....I'd even go as far as to say, we NEED THAT....or we simply aren't fulfilled... we feel crushed , it takes a hit on our self esteem , our very woman-hood. 

So really....even if your husband's nature & loving was more gentle...over some of these Lust dogs on this thread playing out the Ravish fantasies with ease...at least you'd still *feel desired *with his passion....even if more romantically & sensually given/ expressed... this (I feel) can make up for the lack of the other...(but maybe that depends on the women to!)... 

Take this away...what is there to get excited /look forward to about sex ....would seem putting on some porn with a "Magic wand" might even be better... I assume if this is lacking...so goes the "after-glowing" laying in his arms too -afterwards.... 



> *Deejo said:* Communication is STILL the lynch pin. When my partner tells me that she loves it when I order her to do something to me, talk dirty, pin her hands above her head, or (gently) put my hand around her throat, guess what? I do it.


My husband has trouble talking dirty...at least* in bed*...we've talked about this a # of times...what I have learned is this...he feels "pressure" with me wanting this...and if he concentrates here too much... it has a way of deflating other things....so ...yeah....had to let this one go ! 

As far as me telling him... the thing I get caught up on is this... when I have to tell him...like in the moment ....this begins to irritate me....I get caught on this merry go round of thinking...'Why can't he do this on his own .. surprise me now & then"... so I am a little of the problem there.. Once my irritation goes south, it tends to show on my sleeve. 



> For me, there is something to be said for being able to come 'unhinged'. I don't have to monitor my behavior, what I'm doing, or whether she is ok with it. It enables you to simply enjoy and get completely lost in the moment, and let the moment take you someplace you may NEVER have gone to otherwise.


 But your unhinged is not as Tame as His "Unhinged"....again I am comparing other men to him... not somewhere I should go. Damn triggering threads. 

I remember Stonewall had this issue too, he just couldn't get more aggressive/ dominant/ assertive UNTIL he started Test therapy..and all of a sudden.. it became easier.. this is likely what it would take to put a little animal in my husband. 

Honestly, we haven't have a fight about this IN MONTHS, probably since my "Am I being whiny" thread even, so I am making this out to be Bigger than it even sounds..... I really think the man needs hypnotized.. it just isn't going to happen the way I would handle it, envision it, take me to the Moon - to have it played out..... .but those are MY expectations, MY fantasies.. and yeah...they are his being MORE Dominant and in control than he has ever been in his life..

He does initiate, he will move around my body and take charge...ENOUGH , to make him a good lover.... it's not like he lays there and receives from the woman, he is active ....and into it 100%.....we still get lost in each other...always... he just isn't like the Mountain Man in Faithful Wife's clip !


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> [QOTE=ocotillo;4822666]Well, semantically, it's pretty straightforward. Strong is simply the adjectival form of Strength. It's defined basically as, "...having the power to move heavy objects and/or perform other physically demanding tasks". A strong person has strength. How they exercise it is a different subject entirely.
> 
> Socially, it's a little more complicated. There are obvious exceptions, but we all know that as a general rule, a size/strength disparity starts to develop between boys and girls, usually right around puberty. And there are always a handful of boys in any given group of males who couldn't handle suddenly finding themselves on the right hand side of the bell curve physically. They confuse the _ability _to do something with the _right_ to do something and revel in the power of doing what they want and taking what they want. In my generation, these were the same boys who couldn't be trusted with an air rifle when they were younger, couldn't be allowed around horses and other livestock, never really had a close relationship with a dog, cat or some other companion type pet that looks to you for protection and comfort. They were the 'Biff Tannens' of the world.
> 
> There is a perversity in the human nature that preserves the genes of people like this. They are the ones most likely to survive a complete breakdown in social order since they have little to no natural respect for the most fundamental tenet of civilized society in the first place. I get that and I understand the attraction. I understand the fun in role playing, erotic games of the genre my wife calls, "Escaped convict and the warden's wife", etc.


I would differ with this opinion, but only by shades. While growing up and developing I never had any interest in bullying others or exerting my strength over women. However, I became at some point the "bad boy". This title eluded my attention at the time, but looking back with understanding, it makes sense. I was absolutely unafraid of anyone or any law or rule or system. I tested every boundary just to observe the reactions of people (without bullying). I was interested in girls but honestly, I did not start to figure females out until I met my wife at age 20.

With that being said, I later found out that the majority of girls in my high school were quite more than interested in me. One of the biggest surprises in my life was when the most desirable girl in school let it be known she would like to get to know me "better". This caused an incredible upset in the social structure of our school and one of the biggest seniors picked a fight with me, I was 15.
I believe what was and is so attractive to many if not all women, is that primal "barbarian" element. 
That characteristic is not a persona that I put on and take off. To this day, I am now 42, many people upon meeting me are a bit scared. I am a perfect gentleman but there is a dangerous element of my character that cannot be hidden.
My wife has even been very vocal as I age and soften up a bit, that I not loose that "dangerous" aspect as she is very attracted to it.
In the bedroom..... she likes to start off most of the time being treated like a lady, because first and foremost, she is a lady.

However, when things get moving and she starts getting really into it, there is almost always a time when an animal like hunger/need overtakes her and the only thing that will satisfy her at that point is to be consumed by an overpowering male "demand" for her sex. Anything less than being "taken" at that point just does not cut it, or satisfy her.
There are also some times when my need has been very high to start with and she "succumbed" to my dominance with almost none or no for-play and she has expressed great delight afterwards.



ConanHub said:


> To sum it up, I do not think having some "bad boy" characteristics are really bad at all. You just need to have discipline to let "him" out of the dark cave once in a while and send "him" back when "he" is not needed.
> I think that maybe all men can be more dominant in the bedroom, but maybe they have not made peace with there "dark" side and learned how to let "him" out a little at a time for fun.


Sounds good. Sometimes men are exactly like you describe, but it is not permitted, at all. It is too dominant and that women in question does not want anyone controlling her, dominating her or calling the shots. That's how some of them are.

I love how you where able to put the almost uncontrollable sexual urge into words.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Thanks trev. To be honest, many "feminist" women cannot stand me. They get confrontational, argue, and express general disapproval of me all while the color in their cheeks rise. However... I have managed to remain friends with a few "feminist" types and they have confided that while I really piss them off, whenever they have been scared of someone or something, I am the first person that comes to mind.
They think "If he was here that jerk would be put in his place!" or "If he was here those lose dogs would leave me alone." 

I think that the finer points of the feminine thought process are good and enriching, but, I will not and can not be "subject" to that thought process because in doing so, I would cease being necessarily masculine, witch women(even highly refined women) need.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> I think that maybe all men can be more dominant in the bedroom, but maybe they have not made peace with there "dark" side and learned how to let "him" out a little at a time for fun.


That's a good observation and it sounds like you're a well adjusted individual.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

ntamph said:


> It is a common theme in the Sex in Marriage section that women (most women actually) like a little or a lot of domination in the bedroom from time to time.
> 
> Wives have posted about wanting their "gentleman" husband to become more dominant. But the men have been raised to treat a woman like a lady. Posters insist that a man like this can't change.
> 
> Can a man who is like this change and become dominant enough (without looking fake) to arouse his wife and give her what she needs?


Before you extrapolate too much - consider the audience this site attracts. People with problems, marraiges on the rocks, sexual frustration up the wazoo and infidelity everywhere.

No - it has nothing to do with your question exactly. Not exactly - but worth considering before you start thinking in terms of 'most women', 'wives' and 'the men' according to the demographic concentrated here and their collected musings on repairs they are trying to make.

Maybe its a poinless point... but I often wonder how helpful it is to examine the hospital ward too closely for guidance on health. Clearly there is a ton of expertise here, but I feel it is often skewed in some important ways that I have trouble articulating - but mostly around drawing generalizations based on what one might see here.

just babling...

can a 'gentleman' become dominant? Sure, why not if they - the couple - feel that is what they want. Healthy couples make adjustments like this all the time and the timbre of the relationship can change over time - maybe descovering things they didnt realize they had. Maybe. Change does not always involve crisis.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Deejo said:


> ...Pay attention to your response, and to hers...


this. always critically important.

Not only that, its so fun when you are paying close attention isnt it?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Thanks oco!


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Well, semantically, it's pretty straightforward. Strong is simply the adjectival form of Strength. It's defined basically as, "...having the power to move heavy objects and/or perform other physically demanding tasks". A strong person has strength. How they exercise it is a different subject entirely.
> 
> Socially, it's a little more complicated. There are obvious exceptions, but we all know that as a general rule, a size/strength disparity starts to develop between boys and girls, usually right around puberty. And there are always a handful of boys in any given group of males who couldn't handle suddenly finding themselves on the right hand side of the bell curve physically. They confuse the _ability _to do something with the _right_ to do something and revel in the power of doing what they want and taking what they want. In my generation, these were the same boys who couldn't be trusted with an air rifle when they were younger, couldn't be allowed around horses and other livestock, never really had a close relationship with a dog, cat or some other companion type pet that looks to you for protection and comfort. They were the 'Biff Tannens' of the world.
> 
> ...


The strong, sexually confident man has one thing over the Biffs of the world, he is also respectful. A man can be dominant and respectful at the same time.

Mr H is the perfect example, I feel safe, he has never said or done anything to make me feel anything other than safe with him both emotionally or physically.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

> Of course that is just entertainment and not real life, but this is exactly where it can be confusing for some men. Where does fiction end and reality begin? You asked for an example. Here's one from this thread. This isn't intended to pick on Holland or offend her in any way whatsoever:
> 
> 
> > Quote:
> ...


No not offended or feeling picked on at all 

Not sure if this helps but my ex was a quieter, more timid man inside and outside of the bedroom. He is very successful in his career but ultimately his personality was probably too low key for me. 
So yes I may well be equating his personality type to strength but that would be because his personality is not strong. Not sure if this impacts on his more timid nature in the bedroom.

My partner is strong physically, has a very large personality and is sexually very confident. However he claims to not have always been so confident in the bedroom, I bring it out in him, he feels as safe and secure as I do. I respond well to his dominance and he responds well to mine.

Both men are super respectful, highly intelligent and good men.

So I would say the answer to the OP is not an absolute *no *but that there is more to it and the big issue being compatible with your partner, feeling secure enough to let go a bit and being with someone that responds well.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

anotherguy said:


> *Maybe its a poinless point... but I often wonder how helpful it is to examine the hospital ward too closely for guidance on health. Clearly there is a ton of expertise here, but I feel it is often skewed in some important ways that I have trouble articulating - but mostly around drawing generalizations based on what one might see here.*


:iagree:

My thoughts, exactly.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

and the difference between the Biff's of the world and a man like my partner is that one has very low self esteem, one has high self esteem. One is a violent thug, the other actions are based on passion.

No woman want's to be treated badly, that is not what a sexually strong or confidant man would do. Women want to be desired and that is exactly what a sexually confidant man can show her.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Thanks trev. To be honest, many "feminist" women cannot stand me. They get confrontational, argue, and express general disapproval of me all while the color in their cheeks rise. However... I have managed to remain friends with a few "feminist" types and they have confided that while I really piss them off, whenever they have been scared of someone or something, I am the first person that comes to mind.
> They think "If he was here that jerk would be put in his place!" or "If he was here those lose dogs would leave me alone."
> 
> I think that the finer points of the feminine thought process are good and enriching, but, I will not and can not be "subject" to that thought process because in doing so, I would cease being necessarily masculine, witch women(even highly refined women) need.


...and then there's the politics.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> ocotillo...I guess I still just don't get what you are saying. I don't equate the things you are equating...and yet I do want to be spanked and roughed around.


I think Holland hits the nail on the head below:



Holland said:


> The strong, sexually confident man has one thing over the Biffs of the world, he is also respectful. A man can be dominant and respectful at the same time.
> 
> Mr H is the perfect example, I feel safe, he has never said or done anything to make me feel anything other than safe with him both emotionally or physically.



Regardless of how rough the sex is between you ladies and your husbands, it is *still *consensual sex. Allusions to the contrary, as in tying you up, holding your arms above your head, grabbing you by the hair etc., may be fun and erotic, but ultimately they are only playacting.

There is a huge, huge difference between that and the real thing, just as there is a huge, huge difference between a good man who loves you and a man mentally capable of the real thing. And that is the difference I keep hammering away at on this thread. That's what I'm talking about when I speak of a _personae_ a man would slip into and out of at will just like an actor slips into and out of character. It is an illusion. It is not the real thing. The real thing is rape and rape is a heinous crime. As men, we're taught not only to hate the crime, but to hate the perpetrator as well. 

So when ladies say they want a 'dominate' man and a 'strong' man who can give them the rough sex they find erotic, I submit that what they're really saying is they want both a skilled lover and a skilled actor who can provide certain elements of the 'taken by force' scenario, but do so as Holland says, in a way where she still feels safe.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ocotillo said: "So when ladies say they want a 'dominate' man and a 'strong' man who can give them the rough sex they find erotic, I submit that what they're really saying is they want both a skilled lover and a skilled actor who can provide certain elements of the 'taken by force' scenario, but do so as Holland says, in a way where she still feels safe."


Yes. But no woman has said otherwise. That's why I don't see why you have to even state it this way. It is obvious to us women who want it. No woman here has ever said she actually wanted a real thug. There's no confusion for us and there never has been. If there has been for you, I get it now. But there never was any confusion for any woman - myself or anyone I've ever talked to - that this was an "act" of passion....not derived from a violent person. If you ever thought differently, you were wrong, I think.

Women who want to be truly violated and have real violence upon them do exist out there in the fringe of kinkster-land.

But those women aren't the ones here on this thread saying "yes, pull my hair, spank me, and shove me up against a wall".

We know the difference.

Why did you seem to think we didn't?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> 1] Women who want to be truly violated and have real violence upon them do exist out there in the fringe of kinkster-land.
> 
> But those women aren't the ones here on this thread saying "yes, pull my hair, spank me, and shove me up against a wall".
> 
> ...


Faithful,

In paragraph #1 above , you acknowledged that some women want real acts of violence upon themselves during sex. You labelled them as existing on the fringe in " kinkster- land."

So here's the obvious question.

Can these women be considered as " normal " women having normal sexual fantasies?

If so , then how do we men, differentiate between that sort of kink and those here on this thread saying "_yes, pull my hair, spank me, and shove me up against a wal_l".

You will agree that both can be determined as " kinky sex " and involves certain level of controlled aggression or violence.

How does a man whom society and women has indoctrinated and programmed from birth to treat them a certain way learn to turn on and off this sort of violence to fulfil his woman's fantasies, if he has always been a kind , respectful and caring gentleman .

How does " treating your woman love with respect" equate " yes, pull my hair, spank me, and shove me up against a wall"

There is a logic break somewhere in between there.

A good reference of how some women on TAM feel about the subject matter can be found here:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/65992-objectification-dominance-being-man.html

Therein lies the dichotomy.

I think that's Octillo's question and the Ntamph's question in one.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

To me there is no confusion, CM. There are people on a huge spectrum of sexual desires, fantasies, level of kink, etc. From missionary with no lights on to cutting each other open with knives to eating each other's poop.

For myself, I have usually been friends with similar minded women to myself. We share a common desire level on that spectrum (we want fun, rough sex sometimes and great slow intimacy other times), and it is not confusing to me at all when my girlfriends and I chat about what is hot and what is not (to us). 

We don't then speculate about what it means that some woman we might hear about is into being tied to a pole and beaten by some dude in a basement. We might worry about her and her mental health and "what it means"...yet, she is an adult and likely, won't be friends with women in my circle. She will be friends with others who are closer to similar with her overall lifestyle.

Likewise, I don't wonder what it means about a woman's husband who is a cross dresser (have known more than one woman like this). It may or may not even be a sexual thing, but most people will assume it is a sexual thing. To me, it is just another spot on the spectrum, has nothing to do with me, and I don't try to figure out the mind of that person...because they are an adult and there's so much diversity out there that I can't possibly try to comprehend the motivation behind such a wide range of behaviors. NOR comprehend the motivation behind the woman who loves this man. I just assume they are "normal", because everything on the spectrum is normal to that range on the spectrum!

I know what I know about myself and why I like it, and I'm not confused that it "means something" dark about me or about my husband. It is a sexual thing, and yes combined in there is a mental thing...but none of this has anything to do (for me) with the type of actual mean aggression in a man that would make him feel or be violent.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

CM to this question you asked: "How does a man whom society and women has indoctrinated and programmed from birth to treat them a certain way learn to turn on and off this sort of violence to fulfil his woman's fantasies, if he has always been a kind , respectful and caring gentleman."

IMO, this man should figure out for himself what he truly feels and wants. If he's not into it, he shouldn't be pressured into it.

If he is into it, he will find his way.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> CM to this question you asked: "How does a man whom society and women has indoctrinated and programmed from birth to treat them a certain way learn to turn on and off this sort of violence to fulfil his woman's fantasies, if he has always been a kind , respectful and caring gentleman."
> 
> *IMO, this man should figure out for himself what he truly feels and wants. If he's not into it, he shouldn't be pressured into it.*
> 
> If he is into it, he will find his way.


So then can you see exactly why this would cause confusion in some men's mind?

What percentage of women do you feel want that type of dominance during sex at different times?

Can you agree that a man who's genuinely confused about displaying that sort of aggression , at his woman's request is no different from the man who " gets it " and can make the switch and willingly participate? 
Does it make him less sexual or even less sexually compatible/ desirable partner?
Would you consider this inability to be a fair dealbreaker?

And do you agree that some men who are able to make that switch may not really be making a switch per se , because aggression , dominance and objectification is actually part of their nature that they've simply more skilled at how and when to express it?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

If a man's wife asks for something in the bedroom and he doesn't like it, can't get into it, it isn't his thing...and this applies to anything she might ask...then I don't think he is less sexual. He might just not be into it, and that is ok. Some men just aren't. Even though I like rough play, I have been sexual with people who were not on that scale at all and never will be, yet they were amazingly sexual in any number of different ways.

A man doesn't have to have or want to be the rough play guy in order to be highly sexual, a good lover, etc. For instance, SA's husband...she is crazy for him and they have lotsa good hot lovin's. He is no less a great lover and hot man, to her!

If there is a real mismatch and a wife wants it but the husband can't get into it, I think there is nothing wrong with him OR her....there is simply a mismatch. A lot of mismatches in this type of preference can be worked with.

I actually would suggest to a couple with this issue that they join a dance class. The lead and follow dynamic, once learned, can be used in a way that a woman can feel that swoon she is looking for and a man can remain a dignified gentleman while grabbing her by the waist and dipping her to the floor.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Another note...

Men ask for things in the bedroom, yet they don't want "that type of woman" in the day light.

Do you not see this is the same? 

Although I think some women might feel the same way you are describing about how some men would feel. Some women might feel insulted if her man asked her to behave in a way that made her fear that he wants her to be an actual "wh*ore", if he asked her to do something wh*re-ish.

Is that the same?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Another note...
> 
> Men ask for things in the bedroom, yet they don't want "that type of woman" in the day light.
> 
> ...



Of course yes!
They are both one and the same. 
That is what Octillo, and myself are / have been trying to say since yesterday.

Socially,men outwardly profess to despise women who act like [email protected]
Socially, women outwardly profess to despise men who are aggressive and dominant.

So the female equivalent to _ Biff Tannen_ , is Sampson's _Delilah._

But both men and women seem to be sexually attracted on a deep , psychosexual level to the archetype of the gender stereotype they outwardly profess to dislike.


The question is, why?

And is it really accurate to assume that women only want
" _nice guys_ " blah, blah , blah and men only want _good girls_ ?
Or would it be more accurate to say that human beings are multi dimensional and complex creatures , and despite deeply embedded social constructs, they can be sexually attracted to different aspects of human behaviours along a certain spectrum, at different times and for various reasons?

Would you agree that on a purely cognitive level , much of what causes this type of sexual attraction / arousal and response can be considered illogical, and may have absolutely nothing to do with socially accepted ideas of romance and love?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

CM asked: *"Would you agree that on a purely cognitive level , much of what causes this type of sexual attraction / arousal and response can be considered illogical, and may have absolutely nothing to do with socially accepted ideas of romance and love?"*

Sure! I agree with that.

But I personally have never said anything different than that. I have always trusted the Sexual Beast inside of me.

I've never looked inward and asked if my love/romance needs should be connected to my sexy/hot/lusty ideas and desires. They aren't connected and they never have been.

And yet....great sex makes me fall in love...at least chemically. You get the good bonding chemicals of sex whether it is of the romantic type or any other type. So whip me, beat me, make me write bad checks...I'm going to get the same chemical high as another person who loves it only nice and slow and sensual. Both are great. Neither are right or wrong. Romance is a personal flavoring and to me, it has nothing to do with what makes me HOT.

If someone else DOES get hot from romance, I don't find that strange either.

We are what we are. It is all good.

Personally, when my H asks me to do very naughty bad girl things...I don't think twice about whether he "wants to be married to a wh*re" or not. I know he gets turned on by behaviors that would turn him off in day light. Not a confusion or problem for me. I love it! I love his mind. I love his Sexual Beast.

In the day light, he treats me like gold, with respect and love and much affection and admiration. I have it good on both sides of the bedroom door.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Caribbean Man said:


> Can you agree that a man who's genuinely confused about displaying that sort of aggression , at his woman's request is no different from the man who " gets it " and can make the switch and willingly participate?
> *Does it make him less sexual or even less sexually compatible/ desirable partner?
> Would you consider this inability to be a fair dealbreaker?*


 From all I have read on this thread...I think it would be a deal breaker for near every women who posted here- if discovered while dating.... I asked a question..."Should I throw mine to the curb?" ... not a soul wanted to take that one! Very obvious in the replies these men are looked upon as LESSOR...

Though would it be fair to say much of this Dominance is taking a woman for what HE wants in the moment, and many times SHE does not get her orgasm? after all it's about HIS LUST more so -but she likes it -that way... 

I wouldn't care for that part.... I WANT MINE TOO, or I'd probably try to beat him up, make him do it again. A Rape fantasy is not exactly "giving sex" I assume. But sure, she can sometimes get off too. 

SO the "slow man with the easy touch"...it still Rocks.. Not a deal breaker here.. though it may be a blessing I never had that in my younger years, what if I LIKED it ?? ... and then I married him and I was consumed with what I once had... Oh that would not be good, then I'd be doing the comparisons ..... best this is all I have ever known...

Other things *would be *deal breakers for me, that some my judge me as too particular... I have had to resolve this one to "let lie". 



> And do you agree that some men who are able to make that switch may not really be making a switch per se , because aggression , dominance and objectification is actually part of their nature that they've simply more skilled at how and when to express it?


 This is how I personally think ..just judging on how my husband IS...... I don't think too many men want to join this thread and say.. "Hey look at me, I have issues here, it doesn't come natural to me" and it's a struggle, as they will only come off as weak and painted as less valuable to women. 

My husband can not even watch a rape scene on Tv... he gets very ANGRY, he's said things like that make him want to kill someone... Yeah, now there is some aggression [email protected]#$%^ 

He looks upon men like that as the scum of the earth, they should all fall off a high cliff....so maybe in honoring himself he just can't cross certain lines, I don't know what it is. It frustrates me at times so this hits close to home....I am seriously more DARK and violent and selfish than he has ever been. Should I be proud of this [email protected]#$


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

I think we are getting too caught up in associating dominance and rape. Well in my life it is not an association that is made. It is more about deep passion, "I have to have you" type of action. I feel and do the same with my partner, there are times that I just have to have him, it in no way means I want to hurt him or thoughts of rape enter my mind. No it is a passion and desire for that person that feel intense.

Rape is a crime of violence, not passion or even sex sometimes, it is violence and hate (usually) towards women. This is not what a sexually confidant, dominant man does.

I abhor violence and would never be with a man that thought rape were acceptable or any violence towards women. I cannot deal with misogynists or disrespectful men so no I would never have one as a lover. I think rape fantasies are for those with some serious issues.
Being with a man that enjoys a bit of hair pulling and dominance is about deep passion, lust and raw sexual energy,it is not about violence or being demeaned, in fact it is the opposite, it is about being wanted and your pleasure to be incredibly important.

And SA, this could not be further from the reality and truth of my sex life


> Though would it be fair to say much of this Dominance is taking a woman for what HE wants in the moment, and many times SHE does not get her orgasm? after all it's about HIS LUST more so -but she likes it -that way...


Again, it is about desire and strangely it is actually about feeling so safe and secure with each other that we can be free to explore a deep level of lust and raw passion.
Mr H is the most giving of any lover I have ever had, I could go on and on for ages about all he does but suffice to say he is a giver.

I get why this is confusing for some men, there are some very fine line contradictions in there. But the bottom line is that there must be respect and communication which is no different to any other sexual style.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Though would it be fair to say much of this Dominance is taking a woman for what HE wants in the moment, and many times SHE does not get her orgasm? after all it's about HIS LUST more so -but she likes it -that way...


That wouldn't do much for me. It's also dominance to grab her and make her scream my name in pleasure. It can still be about her having a good time, but not gentle or slow.



SimplyAmorous said:


> I wouldn't care for that part.... I WANT MINE TOO, or I'd probably try to beat him up, make him do it again. A Rape fantasy is not exactly "giving sex" I assume. But sure, she can sometimes get off too.


I think dominance and rape simulations / fantasy are very different things. One doesn't need a safe word. One doesn't involve ignoring "no" even though she wants him too.




SimplyAmorous said:


> My husband can not even watch a rape scene on Tv... he gets very ANGRY, he's said things like that make him want to kill someone... Yeah, now there is some aggression [email protected]#$%^
> 
> He looks upon men like that as the scum of the earth, they should all fall off a high cliff....so maybe in honoring himself he just can't cross certain lines, I don't know what it is. It frustrates me at times so this hits close to home....I am seriously more DARK and violent and selfish than he has ever been. Should I be proud of this [email protected]#$


I'm on the same page. I honestly think I could kill a guy with my bare hands in such a situation.

That doesn't keep me from getting into roll play if that is what she wants.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Though would it be fair to say much of this Dominance is taking a woman for what HE wants in the moment, and many times SHE does not get her orgasm? after all it's about HIS LUST more so -but she likes it -that way...
> 
> 
> I wouldn't care for that part.... I WANT MINE TOO, or I'd probably try to beat him up, make him do it again. A Rape fantasy is not exactly "giving sex" I assume. But sure, she can sometimes get off too.





SimplyAmorous said:


> I wouldn't like it if this is how it were, but it's not how we do it. It's not about just his orgasms. It's not "well I got mine so too bad for you, woman." I absolutely get mine and more than he does.
> 
> My husband can not even watch a rape scene on Tv... he gets very ANGRY, he's said things like that make him want to kill someone... Yeah, now there is some aggression [email protected]#$%^
> 
> He looks upon men like that as the scum of the earth, they should all fall off a high cliff....so maybe in honoring himself he just can't cross certain lines, I don't know what it is. It frustrates me at times so this hits close to home....I am seriously more DARK and violent and selfish than he has ever been. Should I be proud of this [email protected]#$


We shouldn't confuse consensual sexual dominance/rough sex with rape. Rape is a crime. Rape is not about sex. It's about control. I have never had a rape fantasy ever. The dominance I'm talking about has nothing to do with such a fantasy. And I've never needed a safe word because "no" is no. I've never even gotten to a point where I need that. He knows where the line is for me.

And he is very good about giving me mine. I have more O's than he does. I wouldn't be in a relationship where it's "too bad for you, I got mine."

To me candles and soft music are overrated. 

I love it when my husband takes charge. His sheer strength and weight of his body, the way he grips my hands above my head..it's all good. I just respond well to this very assertive approach. It turns me on. It certainly never makes me feel unsafe to be taken in my husband's arms and felt up, in the privacy of our bedroom.

It's really no different than how men want a lady on the streets and a wh0re in the bedroom. Some of us women want a gentleman on the streets and a bad boy in the bedroom.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I feel I am being misunderstood here on using the term "Rape fantasy" - It was not me who coined this term...but I have read about and it IS very common for women (and there is nothing wrong with women who have such fantasies either)...... even though many feel it should be called something else, like a Ravishing Fantasy instead (this I would agree but others have argued then it would take on too much of a Romantic nature....so they kept the "RAPE" due to the dominate nature of the man not being able to control his lusts.. even though the woman WANTS it. 

I guess we can call them any darn thing we please....but what you Coffee and you Holland describe fits into the Rape Fantasy model.. would you not agree ? 

I explained this on post #52 
Women's Rape Fantasies: How Common? What Do They Mean?
Rape or near-rape fantasies are surprisingly common. 


> Rape or near-rape fantasies are central to romance novels, one of the perennial best-selling categories in fiction. These books are often called "bodice-rippers" and have titles like Love's Sweet Savage Fury, which imply at least some degree of force. *In them, a handsome cad becomes so overwhelmed by his attraction to the heroine that he loses all control and must have her, even if she refuses--which she does initially, but then eventually melts into submission, desire, and ultimately fulfillment*.
> 
> Romance novels are often called "porn for women." Porn is all about sexual fantasies. In porn for men, the fantasy is sexual abundance--eager women who can't get enough and have no interest in a relationship.* In porn for women as depicted in romance novels, the fantasy is to be desired so much that the man loses all control, though he never actually hurts the woman, and in the end, marries her*.


Sounds damn good to me !


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel I am being misunderstood here on using the term "Rape fantasy" - It was not me who coined this term...but I have read about and it IS very common for women (and there is nothing wrong with women who have such fantasies either)...... even though many feel it should be called something else, like a Ravishing Fantasy instead (this I would agree but others have argued then it would take on too much of a Romantic nature....so they kept the "RAPE" due to the dominate nature of the man not being able to control his lusts.. even though the woman WANTS it.
> 
> I guess we can call them any darn thing we please....but what you Coffee and you Holland describe fits into the Rape Fantasy model.. *would you not agree ?*
> 
> ...


No, never would I agree with the equating of being taken by a man that loves you, respects your boundaries and knows what no means to that of being raped.

It is both demeaning to those that have suffered such a horrendous crime and to the men that desire their partners and like a bit of dominance in a safe and loving relationship.

Rape is violence and disrespect. The type of sex style we are talking about involves desire and respect. Never will the two scenarios be the same.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

I believe in a woman wanting playful, sexual dominating to her desired level, I hope to try this soon with my wife


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> CM asked: *"Would you agree that on a purely cognitive level , much of what causes this type of sexual attraction / arousal and response can be considered illogical, and may have absolutely nothing to do with socially accepted ideas of romance and love?"*
> 
> Sure! I agree with that.
> 
> ...


It is good to hear you say this^^^,firstly because it is an accurate discription of what actually takes place , and secondly because it's the premise / assumption on which Athol kay's MMSLP is based.

Ie; for some women, raw lust , sexual attraction and desires at a visceral level is _not_ inextricably linked to ideals of romance and love.
Raw sexual attraction is the function of our limbic system , it sometimes supersede / override our cognitive ability , and the
" _inner sexual beast_ " is unleashed.

Agree?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> If someone else DOES get hot from romance, I don't find that strange either.
> 
> We are what we are. It is all good.


 Thank you Faithful Wife for your words here...Me & mine ARE these type of people...I appreciate you wouldn't find us strange. 



> *CoffeeAmore said*: To me candles and soft music are overrated.


 I do love candles (though don't light them all that much at home)..

But I take them on every Romantic vacation & put them around the hot tub.. when we went to the Poconos, around our in-room heart shaped pool....and filled the room with Love songs playing 24/7..... if my husband was naturally more dominate he may want to PUKE with that scene... and I'd probably tell him he was a stick in the mudd ....so yeah... this sort of thing does work for us....he is more so naturally geared this way...which takes no effort for him at all. 



> the fantasy is to be desired so much that the man loses all control, *though he never actually hurts the woman*, and in the end, marries her.


 You don't agree with this Holland.. I understand your dislike or any association with the term RAPE in front of fantasy-putting the 2 together....that this blackens it ...but yet.. what is implies is not different from what most of you are talking about here.. If I gave that same snippet and labled it a Ravashing fantasy you wouldn't have this argument ... am I missing something? 

I remember 1st reading about it in one of my books.. "The Alchemy of Love & Lust".. I too was shocked it was called this....the author talked about others were offended, wanted it called something else ! .... and true, there are more extreme forms.. yet sex therapists commonly call it this.... 

I've read a # of times it's in the top 5 of women's fantasies...Here is another description...



> “These female sex fantasies usually involve a gorgeous man carrying her off to his bedroom and quickly getting down to business. She’ll protest as he tears her clothing off and expertly arouses her body, but on the inside, she’ll love every minute of it. This continues to the point of penetration, and leads her to an incredible orgasm despite her earlier protests.”


Yes - I like the sounds of that sort of fantasy, no matter what is is called. I would LIKE my husband to act like this. It would be exhilarating.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Eh,
Rape fantasies.
Lots of women I've known do have rape fantasies.
but just like men's threesome fantasies,
it's just a fantasy, not like real rape.

In a fantasy , one gets to set the parameters.

From the women I've heard speak about it, a rape fantasy does not involve serious physical violence, shame or anything dehumanizing. 
Rather, it involves sex with a completely strange person who ravishes her body and satisfies her deep sexual longings without her explicit consent or a prior meeting.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> .
> 
> I've read a # of times it's in the top 5 of women's fantasies...Here is another description...
> 
> ...



Yes^^^.
Most so called rape fantasies are like that.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I actually would suggest to a couple with this issue that they join a dance class. The lead and follow dynamic, once learned, can be used in a way that a woman can feel that swoon she is looking for and a man can remain a dignified gentleman while grabbing her by the waist and dipping her to the floor.


In trying to explain what my LW called ‘the give and take’ in the bedroom, she once used dance as an example. How a man might lead and then she would follow. The analogy was lost to me since I’ve never danced… yet, what I have gathered since is that she was describing a scenario where one person might excite the other to a point, and then the ‘lead’ shifts and the person who had received stimulation turns about and stimulates the other. This is my best guess as to what she means by a 'back and forth' or you perhaps suggest as a 'lead and follow dynamic', even if my naivete fails to imagine more than one such transference. 



Faithful Wife said:


> Men ask for things in the bedroom, yet they don't want "that type of woman" in the day light.





Caribbean Man said:


> Socially,men outwardly profess to despise women who act like [email protected]
> Socially, women outwardly profess to despise men who are aggressive and dominant.


I don’t have a problem accepting that there are women who profess a want for their partner to participate in such activities, but whether it’s socially or in private, if a woman wishes for me to engage in this behavior, whatever desire I may have had for her plummets. Apparently, I have no taste for it. 



Faithful Wife said:


> If there is a real mismatch and a wife wants it but the husband can't get into it, I think there is nothing wrong with him OR her....there is simply a mismatch. A lot of mismatches in this type of preference can be worked with.


The biggest hurtle in working with this ‘mismatch’ is finding activities that both can accept. If the ‘preferences’ being proposed by one… turns the other off so much that one partner begins to consider the other as completely undesirable, then it may create a much larger problem.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Ok, well tonight I talked to my husband again about these so called *RAPE fantasies*... he feels as Holland, doesn't like that word associated in any way, shape of form... 

Goes on to tell me how Pi$$ed off he was when he heard about this Indian woman on a bus
(I remember him coming home telling me this story)... how these men all raped her like savage animals - one after another, none stepped in to help her....then they stuck things up her and left her to die....how he'd want each SOB Mother F'ers to suffer the cruelest inhuman miserable death with sharp objects stuck in every orifice...he gets fired up.... he brought this up.... not me.. .but yeah ..the point is.. the term RAPE - he immediately associates with the gravest of stories...that is just how his brain works. 

So that WORD has to go ~ banished tonight! 

So I asked about the term *RAVISHING*... Oh he's all for that...that's DOable... He explained how he sees me as his "Queen, his Princess"... (Yes I know so White Knightish...what can I do!).... this is HIM...I said ...."well sometimes I'm a Bi*ch so just throw me around a bit".... 

I can say any old thing cause he is never going to hurt me...this I know. 

But yeah... until this night I would talk to him about these so called "*RAPE Fantasies*"....could be the term itself he rebuffed ...couldn't fully accept what I was after.... Maybe there is still a little hope...I must say he WAS a little more "forceful" tonight, grabbing a little firmer...maybe some progress for my Gentleman after all ...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ooohh...nice development, SA!!! Ravishing each other tonight, perfect!

CM...I have blogged about this very topic extensively. Several of my posts discuss what others would call body agenda. Athol Kay did not invent this idea, he is just one of the men telling other men that "women don't know what they want".

This is silly to me, because I have _never_ in my life proclaimed that a man doing more house work or being more romantic would would make me hot for him, and I have ALWAYS proclaimed that I want to be tossed around, chased around the room and spanked! 

It does a disservice to women who DO and have always known what they want to imply that "most women don't understand what body agenda is".

Some of us are simply sexual enough beings to actually know what we want without a man telling us that he figured it out for us. Sorry, but I wish you hadn't thrown MMSL in there, because I've been horny like this my whole life and have been trying to talk about it and express it and experience it. It is a beautiful thing, really. Raw lust and desire rocks! I know where it comes from and I work with the power of it in my body.

This is not a new idea for some of us.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

SA what does not sit well is the term rape when talking about something else which is consentual sex. Rape is a crime, consentual sex is not.

I have never read a romance novel in my life but all power to those that are into it. It seems though what you are talking about is a random stranger ravishing the woman. I only ever desire that sort of attention from the man I love, not some random. 
Never in a million year would I fantasise about the man I love hurting me, demoralising or committing a crime against me. He would be horrified if I suggested anything remotely disrespectful.

Do you see the difference? TBH I think many that talk about rape fantasy are not talking about a crime being committed against them. Cannot imagine many women would like to be violated in such a horrific way.

ETA glad that you have taken a little step forward with your DH on this one. He sounds like a real gentleman and no decent man would ever want to hurt a woman let alone the one they love.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Holland said:


> I have never read a romance novel in my life but all power to those that are into it. It seems though what you are talking about is a random stranger ravishing the woman. I only ever desire that sort of attention from the man I love, not some random.
> Never in a million year would I fantasise about the man I love hurting me, demoralising or committing a crime against me. He would be horrified if I suggested anything remotely disrespectful.


I've ALWAYS enjoyed Romance novels, even if I haven't read one in the past 8 yrs or so... when I did read them back in the day, they had the power to turn me on like lightning...I'd skim to get to the dirty stuff even.... probably because my husband wasn't this Take charge "got to have her right now" Heroin portrayed in them.... we would have been having a ton more sex back in the day HAD he acted like the men in those novels...

He's never came home and picked me up in a whirlwind -carried me off to the bedroom...lustfully....(even if he felt like it -he would put himself down).... when I might be in a testy mood... he's never wrestled me *playfully* to the ground trying to arouse me... this would have been damn fun - though in his head, that is "too forceful"..."too selfish"...it would be "about him" so it's a No No. 

So he's always felt doing things LIKE THAT was not showing *"Mutual" desire* but his forcing himself on me.. .. so I've never experienced this in my life pretty much... which really kinda sucks... when I read books like that, I was so turned on, I had to go chase him down... so there I was the aggressor, I really didn't care if he wanted me or not, I'd GET HIM TO WANT ME...though that was never a problem, he invited that & loved it. So it baffles me, why if HE loves this treatment on the receiving end- that he struggles to do it.. 

Can you all see my ridiculous dilemma. 

I am not against Porn or Romance Novels, in my view, they have helped me/us.. (which is not the normal view I suppose) but we were both Mr & Mrs Conservative , a little repressed ...both loved sex but had plenty to learn...I felt everything I seen in porn was DIRTY, against love...but really there were elements that we should have been doing, I had this separatist mentality for many years... that you just don't DO what those BAD GIRLS DO..... I even felt guilty reading those smut novels back then....yet I couldn't deny at the same time, I LOVED them, to hell with the guilt, they turned me on !! So they won out...

So for me, I will now call them *Ravishing Fantasies*....from here in.. I wouldn't want a stranger, this is against my moral code... I think anyone who reads my posts knows I frown on casual sex (for myself...and so does my husband)... but can I really judge anyone else since I love & embrace soft porn.. .that would be very hypocritical of me...if so.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> CM...I have blogged about this very topic extensively. Several of my posts discuss what others would call body agenda. Athol Kay did not invent this idea, he is just one of the men telling other men that "women don't know what they want".
> 
> This is silly to me, because I have _never_ in my life proclaimed that a man doing more house work or being more romantic would would make me hot for him, and I have ALWAYS proclaimed that I want to be tossed around, chased around the room and spanked!
> 
> ...


It appears to me your beef with Athol is of a political nature rather than ideological.
I have read some of your blog , I have read some of Athol's and I think both are very good . The basic difference is gender. Yours is geared for the feminine gender and his is for the masculine.

Yours is an expression of your own sexuality in marriage and how ordinary women who might not be sexually aware can tap into their inner self , become more sexually aware and get the kind of sex they really desire from their husbands.
His is about men doing the same.

The irony is that one cannot work without the other. 
Contextually, a husband can only be a sex god if his wife is a sex goddess.
A wife who is a horny sex goddess , can only express her sexuality if her husband is a willing and skilled lover.
Using your dancing analogy , both partners must be willing , skilled and able to execute this dance


Your point of contention is that he has no right telling men what women want in the bedroom because women are fully aware of what they want sexually. 
Obviously that is self contradictory , because if they all were , then you wouldn't need to have your blog. Conversely , if most or all men were full aware of their inner masculinity and how to execute a perfect " sexual throw down " then there wouldn't be any demand for MMSLP.

But you _do_ understand that both yours and his approach to the subject matter is highly subjective, and not research based ,hence , unscientific.

Your evidence is anecdotal , based on your experiences and those in your circle of friends.
So is his.

So the question is ,can a " gentleman " become dominant?
Or ,can a truly nice guy , who is the ideal gentleman become the kind of lover in the bedroom that brings out the raw lust , and the inner sex beast in his HD wife ?

The answer is a resounding yes he can , and there are ways he can do this. Much literature exists , including the MMSLP that can help in this regard.
The opposite is also true , for women.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> So the question is ,can a " gentleman " become dominant?
> Or ,can a truly nice guy , who is the ideal gentleman become the kind of lover in the bedroom that brings out the raw lust , and the inner sex beast in his HD wife ?
> 
> The answer is a resounding yes he can , and there are ways he can do this. Much literature exists , including the MMSLP that can help in this regard.
> The opposite is also true , for women.


The argument you've put forth appears valid on several levels if the resulting goal is for the man (or woman) to create a 'better' or 'more exciting' sex life for themselves. 

If, however the man's definition of 'better' might be to seriously reduce the raw lust and the inner sex beast of his HD wife because he finds it disturbing and seriously unappealing... then the validity of most of those 'getting what you want' hypothesis goes right the window - which results in a reexamination the original premises validity. 

It is a very curious conundrum.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> A man doesn't have to have or want to be the rough play guy in order to be highly sexual, a good lover, etc. For instance, SA's husband...she is crazy for him and they have lotsa good hot lovin's. He is no less a great lover and hot man, to her!
> 
> If there is a real mismatch and a wife wants it but the husband can't get into it, I think there is nothing wrong with him OR her....there is simply a mismatch. *A lot of mismatches in this type of preference can be worked with*.


I feel what saves me & mine from being a true mismatch is....I have no issues with being assertive and going after what I want, when I want it....and THIS TURNS HIM ON...which gives me a sexual HIGH, kinda like that "power view" (which I had described in my sexual views thread)...feeling his excitement ....

IF He didn't like THAT and rebuffed me, however.. or I was a LD passive non initiating wife....well we might as well both shoot ourselves in the head......he'd be miserable & take on the suffering... not wanting to upset my apple cart...and I wouldn't be feeling any passion or arousal with that going on !!! 



> I actually would suggest to a couple with this issue that they join a dance class. The lead and follow dynamic, once learned, can be used in a way that a woman can feel that swoon she is looking for and a man can remain a dignified gentleman while grabbing her by the waist and dipping her to the floor.


 This really is a great idea :smthumbup:... I have thought of looking into something like this, we just never have taken the time.... Neither of us are big dancers, but I could see us having a ball with this. 



MrVanilla said:


> I don’t have a problem accepting that there are women who profess a want for their partner to participate in such activities, but whether it’s socially or in private, *if a woman wishes for me to engage in this behavior, whatever desire I may have had for her plummets. Apparently, I have no taste for it. *
> 
> The biggest hurtle in working with this ‘mismatch’ is finding activities that both can accept. * If the ‘preferences’ being proposed by one… turns the other off so much that one partner begins to consider the other as completely undesirable, then it may create a much larger problem.*


 It is good to hear the various opinions & thoughts here ...(I think you , Where are We's husband & mine) are the only Geared Gentlemen in bed on this thread....gotta have a few to contribute! I wonder what HIS perspective is... 

I gotta tell you... we had a good laugh about your name last night ....telling him there is another like him on this thread....then he called himself "Mr Saltine"... though I must say....reading *YOUR posts* helps me be extra thankful for the way HE is...as even though this is not his CUP OF TEA...he is open to what I want, never has it been a turn off to him....or a Boundary pushing area .....I know deep down there is nothing he wants more than to make me happy..because this makes him happy. 

That may be some of our issue though.... as his DOING .... is coming from a place that is not born of himself -like some other men.....like letting the animal out of the cage type thing...I know from our talks...he is content the way he is....so it really is almost like asking him to BE something he is not. (I would compare it to the husbands who struggle to be Romantically natured...they see no use for it at all....and have to PUSH themselves to say something Sappy to their wives...just cause she would like it.) 



> If, however the man's definition of '*better'* *might be **to seriously reduce the raw lust and the inner sex beast of his HD wife because he finds it disturbing and seriously unappealing.*.. then the validity of most of those 'getting what you want' hypothesis goes right the window - which results in a reexamination the original premises validity.


 This would seriously depress me ...like his throwing ice water on my passion & enthusiasm.....IF my husband felt this way...this would have killed us..... but again, I am happy to hear your perspective, it helps appreciate what I do have, even more so.

I take it your wife has no cares or wants in these ways? 




> *Faithful wife said*: Ok...I don't read it that way, mostly. I don't read anyone suggesting to anyone else that they actually become a Biff Tannen. I *do* hear that kind of crapola from MMSL fans, but no where else. Everywhere else I hear and read about what women want, sounds more like that clip I posted. Did you watch it?


I noticed a lot of talk about this Biff Tannen character earlier in the thread, I had no idea who that was, looked him up >>







sounds like some bullying character in "Back to the Future", not very bright ....I don't remember him from that movie ages ago.... Biff Tannen - Wikipedia



> *Caribbean Man said:* It appears to me your beef with Athol is of a political nature rather than ideological.
> I have read some of your blog , I have read some of Athol's and I think both are very good . The basic difference is gender. *Yours is geared for the feminine gender and his is for the masculine*.
> 
> Yours is an expression of your own sexuality in marriage and how ordinary women who might not be sexually aware can tap into their inner self , become more sexually aware and get the kind of sex they really desire from their husbands.
> *His is about men doing the same.*


  I have the book, it does not bother me at all... if my husband would have read THAT instead of the stupid sh** he did on the net yrs ago about doing more housework to turn me on (are we kidding!)..I am not an "Acts of Service" woman in the least way... we would have been far better off... 

The natural Alpha's have no need for a page in that book...but many men are not... they *need* some DIRECT talk and ideas to shake their women up.. I needed shook a little back then....seriously.... we both did.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> *I feel what saves me & mine from being a true mismatch is....I have no issues with being assertive and going after what I want, when I want it....and THIS TURNS HIM ON...which gives me a sexual HIGH, kinda like that "power view" (which I had described in my sexual views thread)...feeling his excitement ....*


This part of your post stands out most to me.
And I agree with you. These types of coversations always interest me because it shows how different we are as humans and how relationships actually work.
This is not theory, but the " practicum " of relationships 101.

I do believe any type of sexual match can work as long as two people are prepared to do the work and make it work. I don't believe that one size solution fits all relationships.

I do have my reservations about LD and HD concepts. I think that every woman has that inner sex siren in her ,and every man is naturally wired with the desire to reproduce, but sometimes it takes either a lot of work on oneself and compromise , or the right lover to bring it out.

It's all about the correct balance, and this can be learned , or developed naturally somewhere along the continuum, IMO.

My wife was never really dominant in bed , but over the years she became more assertive in the relationship and there was a spill over effect in the bedroom. Her self confidence grew .But this didn't happen by chance, she did the work. Which leads me to another point , which I think Faithful Wife touched on. The dynamics of the relationship outside of the bedroom, often times , spills over into the bedroom. A woman who's assertive and comfortable enough to lead in her family might be the dominant one in the bedroom , it comes naturally to her. Depending on the temperament of her husband they could be a sexual match. The converse will hold true , I imagine.
I'm not saying this is true in every case but the permutations and combinations in different relationships, [which are naturally subject to personality types],are infinite, so it's impossible to say for sure.

However , as the eternal optimist I like reading and hearing about stories like Yours ,Dejoo's , Larry's and other people turned their situation around and charted a way forward whether out of the marriage ,or back into the bedroom.
Sex is beautiful and the possibilities endless.

And BTW, I do believe in _some_ cases of a "sexless " marriage , the solution might be for the husband to do the dishes and help with the housework a little more ,so that the wife would at least have some energy left at the end of the day to feel like a sexual being and not like an automatic dishwasher.

The key is balance, of course!


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I've ALWAYS enjoyed Romance novels, even if I haven't read one in the past 8 yrs or so... when I did read them back in the day, they had the power to turn me on like lightning...I'd skim to get to the dirty stuff even.... probably because my husband wasn't this Take charge "got to have her right now" Heroin portrayed in them.... we would have been having a ton more sex back in the day HAD he acted like the men in those novels...
> 
> He's never came home and picked me up in a whirlwind -carried me off to the bedroom...lustfully....(even if he felt like it -he would put himself down).... when I might be in a testy mood... he's never wrestled me *playfully* to the ground trying to arouse me... this would have been damn fun - though in his head, that is "too forceful"..."too selfish"...it would be "about him" so it's a No No.
> 
> ...


Just love the passion you have for your marriage and sex life SA 

I'm not anti romance novels, just that they are not my thing. Can tell you that one of the sexiest things for me though is when Mr H reads to me in bed, not romance but just everyday novels. I really would like to find some light erotica for him to read to me. I am not into anything cheesy or silly and like you I prefer to get to the point (I do watch porn and don't care for the story, just want to see the sex) so finding something suitable is a challenge.

You know my past story, not going to go on about it but OMG the difference in my life now with Mr H is amazing. He is the pick me up and carry me to the bedroom type of man, wow he rocks my my world.

Here is to you and Mr SA rocking each others worlds for ever.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

CM said: "Your point of contention is that he has no right telling men what women want in the bedroom because women are fully aware of what they want sexually."

No dear...my point of contention is that he suggests that nearly ALL women are un-aware. He also suggests that nearly ALL men need his instruction manual. If I recall correctly, you haven't actually read his whole book. But I have. 

My contention (with this topic) is that this just isn't true. There are so many more sexually self-aware people in the world than he is suggesting. The picture he paints is, to me, far too shallow and only captures a very narrow slice of mentality surrounding sex.

Have you been over to the website for David Schnarch...of Passionate Marriage fame? There is an entire group of people discussing very intellectual intimacy issues.

And there are many other such groups. 

I think MMSL serves a great purpose to a certain group...but it is a sliver of the population, while Athol acts like it is a much larger sliver than it is.

Women who I have known have always known what they like and why they like it. And I don't argue that it requires me being on an equal sexual level as my husband to make this magic happen. There are MANY people like us, however...it isn't really even that rare or a big a deal. Lots of people know how to get down and what they like. I hear from a lot of them. There are a lot of them around TAM, too! You and your wife don't seem to need MMSL to have a rockin' sex life.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Dominant doesn't really have to be rough either in my opinion.

Like hey, having her facing against you while holding her hands behind her back is dominant but not rough. Lifting her up on your arms isn't rough either, but the man is still very dominant.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Absolutely RD. Maybe that is some of the confusion with the language being used. Personally I am more inclined to call it sexual confidence and masculine power eg Mr H can tell me in a quiet yet masculine voice to go down on him and I am there. He has a power in his voice that I cannot resist, I will happily submit to his wishes.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes. But no woman has said otherwise. That's why I don't see why you have to even state it this way....


I have appreciated your patience on this thread. Sincerely.

Certainly no woman on TAM (To my knowledge) has ever said such a thing.

However the idea gets threaded semantically into written discourse here on TAM as an _a priori_ assumption regularly and often. 

Even the thread title here is a half-way decent example, where the word, dominance is juxtaposed to the word, gentleman.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Caribbean Man said:


> My wife was never really dominant in bed , but over the years she became more assertive in the relationship and there was a spill over effect in the bedroom. Her self confidence grew .But this didn't happen by chance, she did the work. Which leads me to another point , which I think Faithful Wife touched on. *The dynamics of the relationship outside of the bedroom, often times , spills over into the bedroom. A woman who's assertive and comfortable enough to lead in her family might be the dominant one in the bedroom , it comes naturally to her. *
> 
> *Depending on the temperament of her husband they could be a sexual match.*
> 
> ...


 What you say here is very true for us.... I am the louder roar...when the kids go to Dad for a question, sometimes he'll say "go ask the boss"...he'll say this at work too... he jokes about it.... but if you knew us, you would see what *EASE* we have....and it's "equal".... we balance each other out .... *There is Respect*. I do nothing apart from him.. *He is our Head...if there is a power struggle...I will submit - as I know he has our family at heart*....we think so much alike that this rarely has to happen...

...I would say I "orchestrate" much of what goes on..which he appreciates... Trying to run a family of 8 takes some organization with a kid going here, another there, it is a juggling of schedules & we never miss a thing, it runs very smoothly....... So yeah, for us, out of the bedroom, I am very "take charge"...on top of it.. 



> And BTW, I do believe in _some_ cases of a "sexless " marriage , the solution might be for the husband to do the dishes and help with the housework a little more ,so that the wife would at least have some energy left at the end of the day to feel like a sexual being and not like an automatic dishwasher.


 oh yes, this is definitely true, having energy was never a problem for me.....I used to get irritated with him for always falling asleep on me at night...Energizer bunny here....didn't matter if I was working or not... I realize this is not the norm! 



> *Holland said:* Just love the passion you have for your marriage and sex life SA
> 
> I'm not anti romance novels, just that they are not my thing. *Can tell you that one of the sexiest things for me though is when Mr H reads to me in bed, not romance but just everyday novels. I really would like to find some light erotica for him to read to me. *


 This sounds very enjoyable and intimate too... Here is something I have saved on my amazon wish list, though never bought it....seems to have good reviews, I find many books on here just reading the reviews.. it's a "past time"... Frenzy: 60 Stories of Sudden Sex: 



> You know my past story, not going to go on about it but OMG the difference in my life now with Mr H is amazing. He is the pick me up and carry me to the bedroom type of man, wow he rocks my my world.


 Makes you Really appreciate what you have now! 



> Here is to you and Mr SA rocking each others worlds for ever.


 It may be more of a Romantic Rocking, but it's still Rocking.. I love that old classic Rock Me Gently - those words...to me...highly erotic...


> Ain't it good
> Ain't it right
> That you are with me
> Here tonight
> ...


 Holland !


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Thanks SA, will check out the link


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Well I think I have determined it is what she wants but honestly it is not who I am. Guess that sucks for us both.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Best five words I can hear.


"Wow, are you that horny."


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

RClawson said:


> Well I think I have determined it is what she wants but honestly it is not who I am. Guess that sucks for us both.


:scratchhead:

I don't understand, you don't even have to be rough

Just take control


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

Control of what exactly? There's a few of us out here that don't quit understand the concept. I've always thought of sex as a mutual and organic kind of situation. There was never anything that I asked for specifically. To 'take control' seems to assume that you may have some agenda, some methodology, some 'thing' that you have in mind: a direction. 

In a very simple and basic way you know where things are going to end, but apparently it's the route you take to get there that you're supposed to take control of? If this is the case, then your asking for someone to plan the trip. I've never sat back and tried to break things down like that. Turn left here, right at the next light, stop here for lunch... Who does this? I've never done this. 

Now that we all have a working concept of the ravish/dominate scenario, maybe someone could try to define just what 'control' means? What does this entail?


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Look guys, I've posted similar before. But in my limited experience in my marriage this works.

Yes my wife likes all the lovey dovey stuff as do I.

But sometimes I pull off her knickers, hold her hands above her head and do her hard.

That night or the next morning I'll apologise/mention that I found her so irresistible I lost control and just had to have her there and then.

She really seems to love it. I swear there is a spring in her step when I do that.

And some of the time I'm pretending. I don't try for her orgasm I just go for mine. I just make sure our next one is a long loving one.

It works for us YMMV


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

RClawson...if it isn't you, that is fine.

Some women are not into it, either.

I have had many women tell me they do not want any type of rough play or for a man to be in control or any of the things discussed on this thread. So it isn't something that "all women" want by far!

I think people have different flavors and the rough-play flavor is not necessarily the top of the list, either. It is on top of mine but that doesn't mean anything. I think probably women who want some rough play end up being more assertive types themselves, so that's why we might hear from more of them.

The slow sensual lovers won't usually be so vocal...yet many are very happily satisfied by slow sensual men. Different flavors!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Ok nevermind the word 'control', I meant more like take charge, or take the lead.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Too true FW, each to their own, no one style is better or worse than the other. The only important thing is that the couple are in sync, compatible and happy. In my world, our style changes daily and we can often have two very different experiences on the same day, we just seem to be on the same wavelength and that is all that matters to me.

For the men looking for some explanation of what "it" is, I'm not sure there are words to help. I guess it is the same as when a woman asks how to be sexier, you either feel it or you don't.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

yes!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MrVanilla said:


> Control of what exactly? There's a few of us out here that don't quit understand the concept. I've always thought of sex as a mutual and organic kind of situation. There was never anything that I asked for specifically. To 'take control' seems to assume that you may have some agenda, some methodology, some 'thing' that you have in mind: a direction.
> 
> In a very simple and basic way you know where things are going to end, but apparently it's the route you take to get there that you're supposed to take control of? If this is the case, then your asking for someone to plan the trip. I've never sat back and tried to break things down like that. Turn left here, right at the next light, stop here for lunch... Who does this? I've never done this.
> 
> Now that we all have a working concept of the ravish/dominate scenario, maybe someone could try to define just what 'control' means? What does this entail?


It is simply feeling hotly desired, some selfishness on the part of the man, like he can not hold himself back..cause he needs her NOW...what woman doesn't want to feel intense desire like that.. us HD's love it... Great demonstration in WyshIknew's post *>>*


> *WyshIknew said*: "But sometimes I pull off her knickers, hold her hands above her head and do her hard.
> 
> That night or the next morning I'll apologise/mention *that I found her so irresistible I lost control and just had to have her there and then.*
> 
> She really seems to love it. I swear there is a spring in her step when I do that. And some of the time I'm pretending. I don't try for her orgasm I just go for mine. I just make sure our next one is a long loving one."


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:

This may explain some, this taken from one of my threads...about wanting my husband to be "rougher"...



> *SimplyAmorous said*....He's said a # of times..."*I'm a Lover not a Fighter*"... "*I'm a Making Love man"* ....he is not at all selfish in SEX.... He is a through & through Pleaser, this is what gives him Pleasure....this appears to be a huge part of his psyche, which brings me to THIS....
> 
> How Useful is a little SELFISHNESS IN SEX?? We were talking this morning, we've had this discussion before ....I've told him I'd like to feel some "selfishness" from him....in one of my Sex books (written by a Sex Therapist) said this is one area we WANT some selfishness......feeling our partners selfishly want gratified -just as we do - this is at the heart of LUST/ eroticism - it fuels something in us... doesn't it ??
> 
> ...


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> It is simply feeling hotly desired, some selfishness on the part of the man, like he can not hold himself back..cause he needs her NOW...what woman doesn't want to feel intense desire like that.. us HD's love it... Great demonstration in WyshIknew's post *>>*
> :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:
> 
> This may explain some, this taken from one of my threads...about wanting my husband to be "rougher"...


I am going to find out if my wife wants dominated Friday night, anniversary...


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Thing is SA, I think I am probably closer to your hubby than many of the other guys here. Perhaps I'm a little rougher round the edges than your hubs.

It is just something I have learned I suppose, my 'default' is tender and loving sex with some enthusiasticness near the end.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> RClawson...if it isn't you, that is fine.
> 
> Some women are not into it, either.
> 
> ...


You know I like the idea of it and I can get into a bit of spanking and she loves that but I think she would like it if I would escalate things to a degree and it just ain't in me. Maybe it could be but I do not believe she would buy it if I tried.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

RClawson said:


> You know I like the idea of it and I can get into a bit of spanking and she loves that but I think she would like it if I would escalate things to a degree and it just ain't in me. Maybe it could be but I do not believe she would buy it if I tried.


But how will you know if she will "buy" it or not if you don't try it a few times with her?


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

doesn't it seem like such a simple thing Coffee? I look back at the posts and it seems silly but I think there is much more beneath the surface and it has to do with history and confidence and the way I perceive she sees me. Does that make sense?


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