# Shark!!!!



## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

I will not bore you fine citizens of TAM with yet another sad retelling of my marriage's demise. Suffice to say we are in the early divorce process, and my STBX wife this week has decided to become brazen/open with her affair. I cannot tell you how much this grieves me, as it sends the worst of all possible messages to our kids on relationships. It also makes her look cheap, and I'm known in my community.

I'm not jealous though. My feelings on this matter are different than that. It's not seller's remorse either. I don't want her back as my wife. She's burned that bridge. Perhaps a part of it is wounded pride, but the larger piece is genuine concern for her.

Simply put, she's hooked up with a very bad person during a very vulnerable period in her life. If the guy wasn't such a complete horrible piece of human excrement, I think I could be fine with things and sail off into the sunset. 

I know she's no longer my responsibility, but I still feel compelled to shout "Shark!!!", because I know what this piece of [email protected] is. I just don't want to see her get hurt, and right now she is not at a healthy enough place to attract a healthy partner, and this guy is sludge.

Please for the love of all things holy do not begin with the Alpha/Beta thing. I am definitely dominant. My wife is not into strong independent males. She is into control, and he is extraordinarily submissive to her. She calls it "supportive". I love euphemisms. 

He isn't well educated or good looking either. I'm both. I make far more money than he does. He's been through two wives already secondarily to adultery, and he's practically 20 years older than she is so what gives? Atholk says women are supposed to be hypergamous...not in this situation. She's definitely slumming it. 

Over the last five years everything has changed about my wife. Her hobbies. Her friends. Her relationship with her kids and her God. I think it says a lot about where she is mentally at in settling for this guy. 

Ironically, she used to start fights with me by talking about what my next wife would be like. My STBX said my next wife would be a professional like me with all sorts of unread journals on her desk. She'd also be pretty, physically fit, and disciplined. She also said she'd be high maintenance like I am, but that it'd be ok because she'd "pay her way." I could go on, but she basically just described me with breasts.

I also retorted with "I think you'll hook up with the assistant shift manager at Denny's". [email protected], I'm practically Nostradamus. Hopefully, her gift for divination will even surpass my own. 

Please tell me TAM that I am not the only person who feels this way. It's like she replaced me with someone who is the complete opposite of me. Ironically, he father died about four years ago, and her mom hooked up with someone who is very similar to "Joe". Is there some sort of mother/daughter modeling going on her that social scientists should be alerted to? 

Just let me know if I should just shake my head people and let this go. I just hate to see her get hurt. Like I said earlier, I may not want her for my wife, but I'd at least like her to try to build something with a healthy person. That's what I intend to do, but for God's sake not now. Life is all about proper timing.

LIL


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## InAPickle (Jun 4, 2010)

Wow. Is this loser around your kids? 

I admire that you still care for her as a human being and don't want her to be hurt even though she did make her own bed. Are you concerned about what her involvement with him might do to affect _your_ reputation?

Good luck to you. I hope she can get it together for her own sake as well as the sake of the kids.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Sadly InAPickle, he is around my kids all to frequently. My older kids despise him, but my 7 and 5 year old don't know any better. He typically has the little ones come over to his house as he lives just a few houses down. That keeps "Joe" safely away from my recently graduated senior from high school, his 15 year old brother, and my 13 year old girl with her venomous tongue. 

As for my reputation, this sort of thing isn't actually that uncommon in my profession. I have a friend locally who is an orthopedic surgeon who just went through this same thing last year. The similarities are eerie.

It doesn't hurt my stock professionally, although it is a distraction from my practice. From a relationship standpoint she is actually helping me, but I'm not on the market for sympathy sex. I guess it's a push. My primary concern is her.

When I was in the service they used to talk about West-Pac widows. No one ever discussed this in school or on rotation, but the mechanisms are pretty much identical. 

husband is gone
wife has too much free time
wife feel unfulfilled and unappreciated at home
insert opportunistic dirt bag

It would be so much easier if we didn't have kids involved. It just pains me that there are people in our world that would readily exploit a woman's mental illness for their own sorry advantage. 

I haven't been happy in my marriage for years, but I just can't come to grips with leaving her with this @sshole. He will destroy her, and enjoy himself in the process. She deserves better than that. 


LIL


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## InAPickle (Jun 4, 2010)

LIL, I have an orthopedic surgeon friend going through a similar issue! You're not in California, are you? 

I sure hope your ex sees the light very soon for the sake of all involved.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Since we've been having issues, my wife's new female friends all seem to be a step beneath where I thought we were as a couple. Don't mean to sound harsh, but my wife agrees with this assessment. While I hang out with people that I aspire to be more like, she is surrounding herself with people whose problems are worse than hers. She says these people make her feel better about her own situation when she sees how screwed up their lives are.

Also, a scumbag like you've described, likely has no spine and no real life and can therefore devote ALL his time and attention to her - in a sick, sad and unhealthy way that someone with clear head, a career and children would not be willing to do. Just a guess.

Don't waste your breathe - don't yell out "shark" or try to warn her. It will only fall on deaf ears.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

You can't yell shark when it's your stbx who is chumming the water and then jumping in.

I know the feeling LIL, I really do. Her choosing this guy has nothing to do with looks, money, or success, it's about how he makes her feel. How ever and for what ever reason, he makes her feel good - and you don't.

That isn't a smear. The similarity our spouses share is that they don't know who they are and they have no 'mission', some life-task that defines them. My wife chose a downgraded version of me as well. When we hit rough waters, I tried to encourage my wife to succeed and challenge herself - but that's a guy thing. Does'nt work with the x chromosome crowd. She wanted a cheer leader, who would wildly shower her with praise when she did ... Nothing. She basically felt like crap about herself. And in a more messed up fashion, she would purposely fail and use her failure as a fitness test. If I agreed that she didn't do her best - instead of shouting with glee and support that she had tried, she was able to pin her dissatisfaction on me. I see some of that in your posts.

Bottom line, her good looking, bread winning, doctor husband makes her feel stupid and inferior. Joey BagoDonuts makes her feel like the Belle of the ball.
Doesn't make sense to me either, but what I have learned, is that I can't be her cheerleader, and if I try to advise her without her asking, I am demonstrating that I don't respect her judgment. I can't help her, and importantly, she doesn't want my help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Deejo,

Thank you for your input. I frankly was somewhat astonished when I read your post. It was like you'd been peeking at her game book. She literally has said close variants of the following quotes to me:

Her choosing this guy has nothing to do with looks, money, or success, it's about how he makes her feel. How ever and for what ever reason, he makes her feel good - and you don't.

My favorite still is:

Bottom line, her good looking, bread winning, doctor husband makes her feel stupid and inferior.

Really? I have been very clear historically with her that she is very intelligent. I wouldn't have paired up with her otherwise. God knows though that her work ethic sucks. 

You are also dead on right that her life is lacking purpose or a "mission". I have begged her to go back to school or develop a new skill. We had friggin piano and saxophone instructors come into our house for years, and I simply admonished her to "take up piano" or another instrument with the kids. She was afraid they'd play better than she did, and she didn't want to commit to the practice.

Sadly, that largely sums up the course of her adult life. She reminds me a lot of Jamarcus Russell, that Raider's quaterback that went "bust". She had so much potential, but just never went anywhere with it. So sad.

LIL


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

> Does'nt work with the x chromosome crowd.


I gotta cry "foul" here. It is not restricted to women. The same emotional neediness is in just as many men, and such men are likely to find someone they can control rather than working to improve themselves.


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## InAPickle (Jun 4, 2010)

Deejo said:


> That isn't a smear. The similarity our spouses share is that they don't know who they are and they have no 'mission', some life-task that defines them. My wife chose a downgraded version of me as well. *When we hit rough waters, I tried to encourage my wife to succeed and challenge herself - but that's a guy thing. Does'nt work with the x chromosome crowd.*_Posted via Mobile Device_





sisters359 said:


> I gotta cry "foul" here. It is not restricted to women. The same emotional neediness is in just as many men, and such men are likely to find someone they can control rather than working to improve themselves.


THANK YOU, sisters!! It's a HUMAN thing, not a gender related issue. For example, the big, macho member of the Y chromosome crowd I married is the emotionally needy one in the marriage - not "little ole me".


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Yeah, I cry foul on that statement as well. Succeeding and challenging oneself is a guy thing? That's news to me. In fact, I think successful women have to work harder than men to get where they are because of hostile statements like what was just made.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

lastinline said:


> Sadly, that largely sums up the course of her adult life. She reminds me a lot of Jamarcus Russell, that Raider's quaterback that went "bust". She had so much potential, but just never went anywhere with it. So sad.
> 
> LIL


That last line is exactly the reason why my spouse can't be with me. No matter what she does or accomplishes, _she_ believes that I won't ever think it's good enough. So, no matter how positive and encouraging and loving I am - she can't and won't be open to it. It's sad, and really unfortunate - because it honestly isn't true.


Sisters, I think you may have misunderstood me. As boys and adults, guys challenge each other, personally, in sports, with women, in business - often it looks like criticism and may even be true, but it's intent is to make you want to be better than you are:
"You're way too slow to beat me."

"You'll never ask her out, she likes me better than you anyway."

"I have my doubts about you being able to bring in this account."

My point was that generally this kind of 'encouragement' doesn't work with women.

This is the best example I can think of that relates directly to the dynamic between my wife and I.
HER: "I've been thinking, and I want to found a school for kids on the spectrum similar to <our son>."

ME: "Really? That's a fantastic idea. God knows we need it. So pitch it to me!"

HER: "Well, it has to incorporate neuro-typical kids to help role model or script social behavior for kids on the high functioning end. The goal is to raise a generation of normal kids and parents that can 'see' and understand autistic behavior and recognize it as simply different and know how to deal with it, instead of just assuming spectrum kids are weirdos or retarded and pushing them further away. The curriculum focuses on the social piece and recognizing what responses are appropriate and which aren't for the spectrum kids. It gives everybody tools. It makes everybody better."

ME: "Wow, sounds like you have been thinking about this a lot. So how do you hook in parents of regular kids to seeing there is a benefit for sending their child to school with kids with special needs? You should write down what you just told me as your mission statement, because it was awesome. Have you talked to any of your contacts in the private school system? So what do we do for <our son> in the meantime? I wouldn't imagine that even if you got this off the ground it probably wouldn't be in a time frame to help him, would it?

HER: *Cold blank stare*

ME: "Ummm ... what?"

HER: "You always do that."

ME: "Do what?"

HER: "Focus on the negative and tell me why I can't do something."

ME: *Deer in headlights* It just goes downhill from there.

Point was: I wanted to help outline the steps to solve the problem of making her dream school a reality.

She didn't give a sh!t about the reality. All she wanted was someone else to jump in and swim around in the joy and idea of her dream school, and not make it feel impossible or improbable. She wanted to relate how the idea of the school made her feel. I wanted to relate to the idea of making it real - which means we were trying to play the same game on two different ball fields.

The dynamic of this little exchange is the thing that killed her attraction for me. Initially, I always did jump in and swim around - but whenever it came to the 'doing' she wasn't interested. And eventually ... I got tired of playing f*cking make believe, when we couldn't pay our bills, or faced the possibility of losing our home. She was afraid of failing, so she would always stop just short of actually trying.

I came to recognize this about 4 weeks ago. I always thought I was doing a good thing ... and if keeping my wife and fostering her having the hots for me was the goal - the way I went about a very important part of it was fundamentally flawed.

My diatribe aside, does the kind of exchange I'm talking about make sense? I thought I was helping ... and I was accomplishing the opposite. I wanted to fix it. She wanted to feel it, and from her perspective, I didn't add anything, instead I diminished her positive feelings.

Cripes, LIL, sorry for the thread-jack.

**And I still think her idea has incredible merit and value. I would love nothing more than to see her make the creation of this school her 'mission'.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Brennan said:


> Yeah, I cry foul on that statement as well. Succeeding and challenging oneself is a guy thing? That's news to me. In fact, I think successful women have to work harder than men to get where they are because of hostile statements like what was just made.


Hostile? No.

The statement wasn't made as a criticism. It was my mea culpa that the method I used to try to get closer to my spouse, achieved exactly the opposite.

Reread your last sentence. To become more successful, which traits, masculine or feminine do you suppose pave the way for that success?


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## InAPickle (Jun 4, 2010)

Deejo, did your wife always have a significant fear of failure? (Or maybe even a fear of success?) Just a thought.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

InAPickle said:


> Deejo, did your wife always have a significant fear of failure? (Or maybe even a fear of success?) Just a thought.


Both. Parents primarily responsible. Failure meant unrelenting criticism. Success meant higher expectations - which inevitably couldn't be lived up to.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*tennis anyone*

I always picked tennis players who were better than I was. Like you two DJ,LIL my GOAL was to improve my game, not find a cheap boost to my self esteem by beating an inferior player. 

Took the same approach in business. Funny what happens when you choose to be around people with better skillsets, and you push yourself hard to "catch" them. 

I also had some performance friction with my wife. It reached a crescendo about 5 years ago. And then - magically she did a 180 and in one year really pulled it together. 




Deejo said:


> You can't yell shark when it's your stbx who is chumming the water and then jumping in.
> 
> I know the feeling LIL, I really do. Her choosing this guy has nothing to do with looks, money, or success, it's about how he makes her feel. How ever and for what ever reason, he makes her feel good - and you don't.
> 
> ...


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Deejo,
That wasn't hostility at all. You made a very broad statement about the female gender. "I tried to encourage my wife to succeed and challenge herself but that's a guy thing. Doesn't work with the X chromosome". As for my last statement,I would argue that all our human traits make us successful. It isn't gender specific. Sadly though, certain traits are perceived as being more important than others and it seems you touched on that. Perhaps I read your statement wrong but it certainly sounds like you stated that success and challenges are limited to the Y chromosome and that statement I took offense to. If I am wrong then I apologize. Posts don't always come out as they were intended.


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## questions (May 7, 2010)

LIL,

I read some of your past posts to get better understanding of your current situation. It's still not clear to me if you (and even your STBX) understand her unmet needs which led her to the level of frustration of no return. We simply don't know what we don't know unless we become brave enough to ask the right questions with the willingness to learn about our blind sides. 

Having witnessed a really bad divorce of my sister and her H, and the harm it caused their two daughters, my heart first reaches out to your 6 kids, especially the young ones. The kids are subconsciously pulled to pick sides as it's a societal norm to label everything good/bad, victim/victimizer, right/wrong, or guilty/innocent. They might be compelled to see you or your STBX either guilty or innocent for making the marriage fail thus breaking the family apart. If anybody is in the right mind, the kids will not have to take sides and will get all the support that they need to come to terms with the new reality of broken marriage when nobody had been at fault. 

You have said in your previous post that you are the only parent capable of taking care of the kids' welfare at this time. With that it mind, I'd like to remind you that it's still your job as a functioning parent to remind your kids that your STBX is their loving mother, that she might be behaving out of character as a mother because she herself is hurting so much while going through a divorce with you, and that it's nobody's fault that you're getting a divorce. Can you find in your heart to see all your STBX's actions as calls for help/love for the sake of your children? 

Since I didn't get any insights into what might had been your STBX's unmet needs, I'd like to venture to speculate how she might have felt while being married: Her H is arrogant, taking holier and better than thou attitude with her most of the time, putting too much emphasis on social status, intelligence, responsibilities, and being proper that she feels suffocated. She yearns for spontaneity, being in the moment, not caring about what others might think, freedom, and FUN. She's now trying to live up her fantasy but finding it daunting and challenging with the responsibility of juggling 6 kids...

LIL, please lose the judgement about her. You saw something lacking in her to prod her to take lessons, going back to school, etc, which fueled her sense of insecurity even more. If you saw her as the perfect mother of your 6 kids, you would have never prompted her to do something for herself. When she was feeling low/depressed, she just needed love, understanding and someone to tell her how perfect she was, exactly the way she was.

In my experience, once I consciously decided to see my H that way, my feelings of love followed. Fake it until you really make it. Think of your 6 kids. It's in their best welfare that their mother gets better. All you can do is to see her perfect, and all else will follow. I sincerely hope that there's less animosity during the divorce process...

Best of luck to you.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

questions, I disagree vehemently with your basic premise. 

*It's still not clear to me if you (and even your STBX) understand her unmet needs which led her to the level of frustration of no return.*

Really, if I ask the right questions I can be "enlightened" like you and her behavior can be justified? Does TAM have a policy for drug testing?

Geez, I have to be brave too? I thought running a clinic and pushing for primary custody of six kids would qualify me as brave, but I guess not. 

Here's a thought...do you think during the period my lying tramp of a wife was "carrying on" that perhaps my friggin needs were neglected? Ever routinely work a 12 hour shift in a clinic to come home to a spouse headed out the door to go to yet another "workshop"? Leaves you with kids, dishes, baths, and anything else you brought home to finish up. From one job to the next. 

*Her H is arrogant, taking holier and better than thou attitude with her most of the time, putting too much emphasis on social status, intelligence, responsibilities, and being proper that she feels suffocated. She yearns for spontaneity, being in the moment, not caring about what others might think, freedom, and FUN. She's now trying to live up her fantasy but finding it daunting and challenging with the responsibility of juggling 6 kids...*

So it's wrong questions that I have any expectation that my wife actually contributes to the well being of her family? I could friggin care less about my social stauts. When I met my wife I was in the service. She was the one with the friggin money. I think you should go back and read my posts from the beginning and open you friggin mouth when you actually understand my past a little better. I grew up in a trailer in the midwest. She grew up in the second wealthiest community in America. 

"Feels suffocated", welcome to adulthood Sugar. Intelligence is important; try it sometime. "Being proper", I didn't realize I wore a tiara. She's the one with the friends with the metrosexual husbands. I spend my off moments in a gym or on a mat. She's the one into jazz and wine. I'm into tae kwon do and Jujitsu.

Here's a friggin thought questions, if you want "freedom" don't get married and have six friggin kids. Keep your legs shut, and just keep spending mommies trust money. I'm sorry she's daunted and challenged. Imagine how much more daunting and challenging it'll be when she actually has to put her @ss to work for the first time in her life.

*LIL, please lose the judgement about her. You saw something lacking in her to prod her to take lessons, going back to school, etc, which fueled her sense of insecurity even more.*

I'm going to take a stab at your life questions. I'm going to guess you really haven't accomplished a whole lot. It's nice to know it's my fault. Have I been the perfect spouse? No. Have I generally brought my "A" game? Yes. Is it easy? No. Does that matter? No. I do it anyway. It's called honor. It's called duty.

Life is about growth. Growth is positive. It's also painful. Learning is good. Lifelong learning is even better. I can see clearly now she cheated because I "nagged" her about taking piano lessons. She was the one that insisted our kids all play instruments, but does she play one herself? No. Seems a tad inconsistent to me.. 

I don't agree with your "have another cupcake" take on love, questions. Love is conditional. It's also refining. Have your spouse cheat on you and we'll talk. Do you think I've never had a chance to friggin cheat on her? I could have traded up long ago for a trophy wife, but I chose to honor my wedding vows and my family. So "F" you questions. Every wife beater has a reason as well for their actions, but that doesn't make it valid. Please remember to remit your urine sample to the TAM lab. 

Here's to animosity,

LIL


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## questions (May 7, 2010)

LIL,
I'm very sorry that my post was very upsetting to you. I should have had better judgement by recognizing that you are also hurting. I don't know you or your wife, and I was taking neither her side nor faulting you for your current situation. Whatever I said must have touched your nerve deeply for you to be so angry. I had no intention of hurting you more. I just wanted to humanize your wife for the sake of your children. I question whether you are being heroic and brave by trying to take the primary custody of all your 6 children by convincing yourself and others that your STBX is being a monster... She's still their mother. I just hope that you guys, including the kids, heal soon.

Peace to you. Again, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I genuinely wish you and your family the best.

btw, I'll be happy to oblige to any drug tests. I'm the only person that I know who has never done any drugs. I've also done quite a bit in life. I've lived and traveled to all over the continents, and now I started my own company and have 3 patents. I still have time to post here .


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Questions, I'm going to assume that it was NOT your intention, but you just perfectly illustrated my point that the other ladies took issue with.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## scarletblue (May 20, 2009)

Most divorces are ugly, no matter how we don't want them to be. They turn ugly in some degree and some fashion. It's very hard to keep our opinions about our soon to be ex's away from our children's ears. I believe most parents do their very best to do just that...protect our children.

Another incredibly hard part is when the ex gets a gf/bf. Because we want to protect our children, we worry that this person is worthy. If the person is a scuzzball, we don't want them around our kids. If they are great, then it is really hard to hear your children say how wonderful they are. Even though it's not true, it feels like your kids have given some of the love they have for you to the new bf/gf.

It's really hard to watch your ex sink lower and lower, and unfortunately, the last person they want to hear anything from is you. No matter how concerned you are and how much you want to help, you are probably the last person she wants to hear from. 

I commend you on what you're doing. Take care of those kids, and yourself. My best to you!


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## questions (May 7, 2010)

This whole exchange has been a very good demonstration of how easy it it to have miscommunications in any relationships. I just wanted to be helpful, but unless I know how to talk in such a way that the other person can hear me, it can be heard as an attack.  This is universal, and I don't think that it applies just to X vs. Y chromosones, no offense to you, Deejo. I would have said the same thing about LIL's spouse if LIL were a woman. I think that whole miscommunications happened because I, myself, came across with "holier than thou" attitude. Nobody wants to hear from someone with that attitude . In that regard, I'll stay my course by insisting that it's everyone's need to be accepted exactly as he/she is and not be judged, period.

Scarletblue expressed my general sentiments much better than I was able to do, and it was a very good teaching moment for me on how to communicate if I want to be helpful.

LIL and Deejo - you both have expressed some wonderful insights in your respective marriage/separation/divorce process that could be very helpful and beneficial to all. Thank you both for your posts.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Questions you offered a very gracious explanation for your post, and I am sorry that I attacked you when you only meant to help me. This has been absolutely the worst week of my adult life. I don't know about other people of this forum, but half of the reason I'm here is that it is simply cathartic to type out my thoughts. 

I guess I shouldn't ask for answers if I'm not willing to entertain them. I was going to PM you questions and apologize to you that way, but I felt it would be better if I did it in the open. I'm sorry for what I wrote to you. It was uncalled for.

LIL


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

I am so sorry to hear about all the happenings LIL. I have been following your thread, I just don't honestly have any good advice since I haven't been in the situation as of yet. 

You do seem to be very intelligent, and I think that you are clever enough to find a way to keep this from affecting your youngest children to an extent. You don't come off as one that would "rally the troops" against her, on the contrary you seem to want her to find a way to be happy. 

I will send all the positive vibes I can find that your situation has a light at the end of the tunnel and that you can see it soon. Best of luck to you. ( and sorry I am not more helpful on this one lol)


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

lastinline said:


> He isn't well educated or good looking either. I'm both. I make far more money than he does. He's been through two wives already secondarily to adultery, and he's practically 20 years older than she is so what gives? Atholk says women are supposed to be hypergamous...not in this situation. She's definitely slumming it.
> 
> Over the last five years everything has changed about my wife. Her hobbies. Her friends. Her relationship with her kids and her God. I think it says a lot about where she is mentally at in settling for this guy.


Well you've made the case that she's mentally ill. Generally I don't think my viewpoint extends to the mentally ill as a practical theory. Doing bizarre crap that normal people wouldn't do being a loose summary of the diagnostic criteria. 

Though I suspect she's been waiting for you to dump her for years, so she's just beating you to the punch. Which mainly appears to have been something stuck in her head, rather than an actual real threat, until of course she started acting on it all and destablized on you.


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