# Thoughts? Suggestions?



## takris (Sep 22, 2010)

I was the guy who would never consider divorce. I would appreciate your thoughts, although I understand it is hard to understand based on just a short summary.

Married over 20 years to a wife who is very committed, but has serious issues with insecurity and depression. I suspected BPD because of self-image concerns, but her therapist argues that it is just insecurity and depression.

So, I'm introspective, but try to be agressive towards being a good husband. Spend plenty of time trying to talk, encourage, and I'm always optimistic. The lady at the flower shop knew my credit card number, but most things would probably just appear goofy to others. Early birthday parties with streamers and Disney characters on the tableware when she was down (she had a childhood fascination with this). Hidden chocolates in her closet and lunch bad. Poems that were framed (one even published). Completely remodeled her bedroom into her favorite fantasy theme while she was away. But sometimes I let myself fall into a rut and lose some of the spontaneity. Absolutely nill lately.

She admits that she is very critical and has trouble putting things in perspective. And although I tell her constantly that I love her and think she is beautiful, she cannot stand herself, always feeling like a failure. 

Her family tells her that I'm a great husband, but it is impossible for her to say something remotely affirming. Most of our time together is her time to talk about everything that is wrong with our relationship. I consider myself passionate and a hopeless romantic, but she feels that our love life is a failure because 'real men want sex almost every night'. I have a hard time with more than three times a week because I really wish she could just let go and actually participate. In the first ten years, she would cry for hours if we skipped a night, but now constantly reminds me that she has accepted that we have a very abnormal sex life. 

To make it worse, she admits that she allows herself to imagine offenses almost constantly. Most of the time she looks at me as if she dislikes me and I usually find out that I did something for a reason I never even suspected. For instance, I have a painful joint disease. While we were talking, I leaned forward to stretch my back and two days later she admitted that she had been furious because I turned my back on her out of disrespect. Believe me, I'm in a leadership position, so we had endless hours of discussion, but the best she will come up with is that she can't disbelieve what her mind is telling her.

Last year, she really tried to work on her own issues, finally accepting that I can't always make her feel like she wants. She stunned me by telling me that I was a great husband, and wishes she had focused more on enjoying the romance and spontaneity. But she is now very angry that I always assumed that since she only spoke of my failures, I thought our marriage was always troubled. 

After I told her that divorce is an option, she became more commited to following the advice of her therapist. But she constantly tells me that I want the impossible, and I am trying to make her be something she is not. I only want her to be able to occasionally smile and say an affirming word or two.

I have accepted that realistically, she will not be able to change alot, but our fundamental stopping point is her constant statement that I need to be able to treat her like I did for almost twenty years. That's the problem for me. I awoke every morning saying 'maybe this will be the day', and continued to try to focus on her needs. The whole time, her words were telling me how much of a failure we were. I can't go back to that without some feeling that she will be different.

Yes, I know we need joint counseling, but I know her well enough that I'll be my couseling or 'the guy's an idiot'. And I do have my own annoying issues. Lots of them. So, I'll be able to support a separate household next year, and when that time comes, will probably ask for the divorce.

Why do I feel like such a jerk? I don't think this is a greener grass issue because I have to admit that I'm afraid a counselor would tell me that all women are like this, so what's my problem?


----------



## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

First, I was worried about going to a marriage counselor because I thought it would end up that I would be paying $250/hr for TWO people to tell me I'm an a-hole. But it didn't turn out that way and it was very helpful. I strongly suggest it.

However after 20 years, can you realistically expect a person to change? unless it is a mental defect that medication could help (to which she would need to agree to be treated for), you may just be spinning your wheels and leaving is your only option.


----------



## takris (Sep 22, 2010)

I should have mentioned that she has been taking medications for years for depression and anxiety, but the therapist speaks more of acceptance than getting better. 

Maybe part of it is just the need to ventilate.


----------



## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

Takris,

I'm sorry to read that your wife may have BPD while your therapist thinks it is depression and anxiety. 

Is this the opinion of other mental health professionals? Having had too much experience with medical pro's (HAH !) and their treatment/diagnosis of women I wouldn't rely on a single practitioner's opinion for anything more serious than a hang nail. This is true for women and men regardless of field - dentists, specialists, psych's, gyn's, etc. After two words they have a Dx, further questions and tests only confirm the opinion. The treatment of women by the medical field is horrid, I hate to say it but I think some large corporations are doing a better job.

Look for posts on this forum by Uptown - (I owe him a response) about BPD and a forum he recommends on this topic.

Having lived, married & divorced a BPD wife after 16 years and two kids (9 & 12 when I moved out, now adults 30+ years old) I know how impossible it is to stay married to someone who has BPD or similar disorders - by year 5 every time I came home it was to anger that just kept getting worse, long, long silences and a complete lack of affection.

We nice guys are way too nice for them.

Good luck,

Mark


----------



## takris (Sep 22, 2010)

I considered second opinions, but my wife will barely follows the advice of her current therapist. She's resigned to this life, but not its consequences.

Plus, my state is known to determine disability in such cases involving divorce if there is an official diagnosis. She's functional and works.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> I suspected BPD because of self-image concerns, but her therapist argues that it is just insecurity and depression.


Takris, I agree with Think that you cannot rely on the opinion of one therapist. For one thing, unless he is a psychologist, he may not have adequate training to spot BPD. Even if he is a psychologist, he likely will not tell you her true diagnosis if it is BPD. One reason is that insurance companies rarely cover BPD. This is why so many therapists list the "diagnosis" as one of the associated symptoms (e.g., bipolar or depression or PTSD).

A second reason is that the vast majority of BPDers will quit therapy immediately if given that diagnosis. A third reason is that the social stigma of a borderline diagnosis is so strong that therapists often fear the possible effect on existing or future employment, particularly since most people obtain health insurance through an employer's health plan.

I took my BPD exW to weekly visits with six different psychologists over a 15 year period. Not one of them ever mentioned the term "BPD" to me. On the contrary, when I asked the last therapist about BPD, she denied that my exW had it even though she had been treating her weekly for five years (and both of us together in counseling). She claimed that "labels are not useful." At the end, when I insisted on knowing what my exW was suffering from, she would only say "a thought disorder." Never mind that my exW had been sexually molested for years in childhood by her sociopathic father. Never mind that she exhibited all nine BPD traits strongly. And never mind that the most popular BPD books read like a biography of her life.

As to the other five psychologists, they referred to my exW's illness in terms that I now recognize as "code" for BPD -- telling me that she has an "emptiness inside that can never be filled" and has "PTSD." For additional reasons as to why your spouse's therapist won't tell you the truth about BPD, you may want to read a short article written by a divorce lawyer. It is at http://www.bonnebridges.com/pdf/Borderline_Personality_Disorder.pdf.


> I considered second opinions, but my wife will barely follows the advice of her current therapist.


I believe Think was suggesting a second opinion for YOU to obtain on your own. That is, you could go to a psychologist for a visit or two and describe your W's behavior and ask his opinion. Because he is not treating her, he will be free to speak to you candidly without the concerns mentioned above. Without her present, he will not be able to render a definitive diagnosis but he will be able to say "Yes, it sure sounds to me that she likely has...." Your chances of getting such a candid remark out of her therapist -- or a therapist who is seeing both of you -- is very small, IMO.

Alternatively, you can read up about BPD traits and decide for yourself whether your W exhibits strong BPD traits. Of course, you won't be able to determine whether they are so severe as to meet the diagnostic criteria. Only a professional can do that (but likely will not tell you the result). Yet, if you are miserable living with her, does it really matter whether the traits reach the diagnostic level?


----------



## takris (Sep 22, 2010)

Uptown said:


> Takris, I agree with Think that you cannot rely on the opinion of one therapist. For one thing, unless he is a psychologist, he may not have adequate training to spot BPD. Even if he is a psychologist, he likely will not tell you her true diagnosis if it is BPD. One reason is that insurance companies rarely cover BPD. This is why so many therapists list the "diagnosis" as one of the associated symptoms (e.g., bipolar or depression or PTSD).


I really appreciate the helpful response. Basically, I've accepted that I know what I know. She admits that she is unable to think in anything other than 'all or nothing mode', which is a key component of BPD. Currently, she has quit trying because she cannot believe the small steps will help.

I let it drop because a lawyer friend asked me 'are you crazy'? If she is diagnosed, she can claim a disability in the divorce. I'm in my mid forties, but already have a few million in my retirement accounts, plus a pension. And I've locked almost everything into retirement.

She is 100% committed to paying for our kids college. One is cuttently planning on going to medical school, and another graduate school, plus a son shortly behind. To put it bluntly, she can make a very good living in her profession, and next year will be the time that I can divorce while letting her make the decision of whether she'll take me to the cleaners or let me put our kids through college. Can't be both.

Okay. To be honest, I'm a former poker player from college days. Either way, I'll slum if I have to in order to put them through college, but I'm counting on her BPD belief that I'm evil to help her not see me as bluffing. That's the rub for me. I've worked so hard to make her feel like a queen, yet she sees me as evil because I can't erase her pain. Although I didn't see it as BPD yet, I dropped out of college to marry because she was suicidal. She resented being married to a machinist, and I wanted the degree, so I worked full time and did college to finish. Basically, took a factory manager job at night to go to college. Took some time, but fortunately, I don't need much sleep, so I was able to spend hours per day with her. During this time, she resented that she wasn't first at all times. (Okay, enough venting for now!! There were some good times, and I'd do it again for the kids.)


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hi Takris, met my wife when I was 18 and she was 16. Together/married for 42 years. I “think” my wife had a PD but just don’t know. Personally I can’t see your wife as borderline because she has a good and steady job. Mine did too and she’s definitely not borderline. I think she’s covert narcissist. But I don’t “know” and it become no longer important to know.

What was important was to accept how she made me feel and to accept that it would never change.

Like you I never saw myself as a divorced man. But the day came when enough was enough and we split/separated. I went through quite a bit of grieving, seven or eight months.

Now looking back and feeling how I feel I’ve become to realise just how much of an institution marriage is. I don’t think it’s something a person can truly feel, know and understand until they’ve been in it for a long time and out of it for a while. I thoroughly enjoy being by myself. I enjoy the thought of no more dysfunctional episodes, no more “trying to understand”, no more critical comments and most definitely no more trying.

I think we all know when the end is the end. It needn’t be an affair or anything like that at all. For me it was more the feeling of wth/f I’m just fed up with it all.

Bob


----------



## takris (Sep 22, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Hi Takris, met my wife when I was 18 and she was 16. Together/married for 42 years. I “think” my wife had a PD but just don’t know. Personally I can’t see your wife as borderline because she has a good and steady job.
> Bob


Thanks for the supportive words. I can't necessarily give the whole background in my posts, but she has a good job, but never steady. She's highly functional, but has quit for long periods during depressions. Usually, after a few weeks of excessive motivation, she'll believe me when I tell her that working will give her some relief. 

I used to dream about growing old together. She cannot tolerate such discussions. Only ever dreams of dying young. Currently, I made her believe that our insurance would not cover her if she committed suicide. Her psychiatrist thinks that she is stable enough that the threats are empty, but she hates herself and wants to die young.

I watch her constantly for signs of bulemia, because this is her current self-destructive coping mechanism. She is very religious, which really moderates her behavior. 

She's great at her job, because these relationships are brief and give a sense of satisfaction. Currently, however, she has no friends.

These types of posts paint her as bad, but she is a good person. Great relationship with daughters, but her problems are with men. Tends to hate our son (yes, she calls it hate), but only vents to me. This is an area of guilt I will always carry. I quickly set very strict rules about how she could approach him, but he does not like her at all. I think he's confused because I don't talk bad about her, but she balances her bahavior by being loving when she can. 

She was abused sexually, but the guy was caught before it progressed. Unfortunately, she was reared in an environment where her behavior was never questioned. In other words, she was idolized as the perfect child. 

I was oblivious to the signs because I had absentee parents and just assumed this to be normal.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

AFEH said:


> I “think” my wife had a PD but just don’t know. Personally I can’t see your wife as borderline because she has a good and steady job.


Hello, Bob (aka, AFEH). Most folks diagnosed as "Borderline" or "having BPD" are called "high functioning" because they are able to hold jobs. Indeed, many of them are successful in demanding professions like being a physician, academic, police officer, or actor. And some of them are even therapists. This is possible with high functioning BPDers because their behavior usually does not become dysfunctional until they are in a close relationship with someone. This is why it is common to see a BPDer being outgoing and kind -- generous, even -- with total strangers and business associates and then go home to abuse the very person who loves her the most.

A high functioning BPDer is able to handle strangers and casual friends with such aplomb because they pose no threat to her. That is, there is no close relationship that can result in _abandonment_ (the BPDer's worst fear) and no intimacy that can cause engulfment (the other great fear). Lord help them, however, when they start to draw closer. This is why a high functioning BPDer typically has no long term friendships (unless the friend lives far away).

This is not to say, however, that Takris's W is "borderline" or "has BPD." Only a professional can determine whether her BPD traits are sufficiently strong to meet the diagnostic criteria. Yet, because the nine BPD traits arise from using primitive emotional defenses that we all have, every one of us occasionally exhibits all nine traits (albeit at a low level if we are emotionally healthy). Indeed, you could not be healthy without having those primitive defenses because they are needed to ensure your survival.

Consequently, you are already very familiar with all nine BPD traits and simply do not know all of the names -- and likely do not know how all of them affect your behavior on a weekly basis. With a little reading, however, you will be able to recognize a strong pattern of BPD traits when it occurs. This is why my discussion has focused on whether Takris' wife has strong BPD traits -- not on whether those traits satisfy the diagnostic criteria. 

Hence, my point in this post is that, even if she were diagnosed as "having BPD," she could still excel at work and be popular with hundreds of casual friends and work colleagues. The implication, then, is that your exW may have been a high functioning BPDer regardless of how well she performed outside the home. The litmus test is how well she performed with folks who love her. After 42 years of marriage, however, you ultimately understood the bottom line very well. As you observe, "what was important was to accept how she made me feel and to accept that it would never change."


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Thank you for your thoughts and time Uptown. Took me a long while to get to that bottom line, as I think you know and understand.

Takris has a way to go as yet.

Bob


----------



## takris (Sep 22, 2010)

Very helpful to hear of others who understand.

Thing was, I saw this for 20 years as my responsibility as a husband to just feel guilty. 

Now, she senses that I'm no longer taking the blame. I'm refinding myself personally. Even finished several novels that I've been puttering around with for years (went to college on a scholarship for a published story that won a contest).


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Takris and Bob, compared to the 20 and 42 years that you guys took, I did amazingly well in taking only 15 years to see the light. You both must be so envious of me. 

By "see the light," however, I mean the "light of day" I saw when getting out of jail. What happened was that, during one of my exW's tantrums, she chased me room to room until I finally pushed her back away from me, causing her to trip and fall. Anytime you push on a 60 year old woman she will fall down. All of this happened less than 20 feet from our grand daughter and my exW's sister (both of whom also have serious emotional disorders and were visiting us).

Like a typical high functioning BPDer, my exW is lousy as manipulation because she is too impulsive to plan well and too reactive to execute a plan properly. But she is plenty smart and thus recognized an opportunity when she saw one. So she called the police and told them that I had "brutalized" her. By the time the police arrived, they found me with three hysterical women -- all telling the same story, never mind that two of them had been behind a closed door during the "brutality," which had lasted all of two seconds. 

With me in jail until I could be arraigned in front of a judge so I could be released, my then-wife had time to file for a restraining order barring me from my own home for 18 months (the time required here to finalize a divorce). In retrospect, I consider that jail experience a Godsend because anything less would have been an insufficient basis for me to be willing to leave her. Although I was divorced 3 years ago and went NC over 2 years ago, I still love her. So, yes, Bob, I know something of what you went through -- and what you are still going through, Takris.


----------



## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

*and I thought my ex was manipulative*

Uptown,

I'm dumbfounded by your ex, doubt even my brilliant ex could have been that fast on her feet.

Eight years after we met, soon after the birth of our second child and the same day death of her Dad, I knew we were having serious problems, over the next decade our marriage declined in many ways, her BPD intensifying.

In the ninth year of our marriage, almost 18 years after we met, it was all over and I moved out.

Your previous posts about BPD are spot on, we had a wonderful "honeymoon", her angry, silent moments got longer and more intense as the years went by.

I strongly encourage those with BPD spouses to recognize the inevitable, s/he is so damaged all your love, all your kindness, all your concerns will make no change.

Uptown earlier suggested one look at 
Borderline Personality Disorder - Support group for families and relationship partners

I strongly agree, if you see your spouse described on its pages, you have my sympathy, please seek counselling, please learn about it, and please learn how to insulate your children - my youngest was hurt very badly, now at 36 is doing well but it has been a rough journey. 

Mark


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Uptown said:


> Takris and Bob, compared to the 20 and 42 years that you guys took, I did amazingly well in taking only 15 years to see the light. You both must be so envious of me.
> 
> By "see the light," however, I mean the "light of day" I saw when getting out of jail. What happened was that, during one of my exW's tantrums, she chased me room to room until I finally pushed her back away from me, causing her to trip and fall. Anytime you push on a 60 year old woman she will fall down. All of this happened less than 20 feet from our grand daughter and my exW's sister (both of whom also have serious emotional disorders and were visiting us).
> 
> ...


I think it does need a “traumatic event” to wake us up. Mine was a nervous breakdown lasting 4 weeks. It was brought about by my wife’s delusions, deceptions and lies. My wife smiles all the time but inside she’s a bitter woman. She manages to delude herself about past events and come out some twenty years later with a false accusation.

In between these deluded accusations everything was more or less fine and I had a lot of joy and happiness in the 42 years. But it took me so long to recover from the false accusations and a pattern was set that I knew I would be falsely accused again sometime in the future. I just couldn’t handle that thought so the only thing for me to do was to separate.

Strangely enough, “bitterness” is up for approval as a personality disorder.

I have a sister with bipolar so I know a lot about it. My wife most definitely doesn’t have it.

Bob


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

AFEH said:


> I have a sister with bipolar so I know a lot about it. My wife most definitely doesn’t have it.


Likewise, I have a foster son and grand daughter with bipolar. I am surprised that so many therapists appear to mistake BPD for bipolar. As you likely already know, there are several clear differences between the two disorders. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year.

In sharp contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. BPD rages, for example, typically last about 5 hours and rarely as long as 36 hours (if the BPD sufferer is inner-directed, however, you will not witness a raging screaming person but, instead, a quiet withdrawn person who turns her anger onto herself).

A second difference is that the onset is very different. Whereas a bipolar change may occur over several weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 15 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action.

A third difference is that, whereas bipolar can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness you see when a BPD is splitting you black. IMO, that difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPD person can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly.

Finally, a fourth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if she knows you well. Untreated BPDs, however, are unable to trust -- even though they sometimes may claim otherwise. This lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when a person does not trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will.

Yet, despite these four clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. Part of the confusion seems attributable to be the fact that many BPD sufferers also have the bipolar disorder. And part seems due to the practice of many therapists in deliberately "diagnosing" BPD as bipolar because the latter is covered by insurance and is more acceptable to their BPD clients.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Sorry Uptown, I should have said sister with borderline.

But look just how much you got into it all. I read so much and spent so much time and energy trying to “understand”. I’m glad I’m out and hopefully I never have to go through that kind of stuff again. It’s one heck of an emotional entanglement as you well know.

It was not until I’d been out of contact with my wife that I could see clearly what was going on and come to my conclusions and judgements about it all. I can feel the time coming when I will leave it all behind.

Bob


----------



## takris (Sep 22, 2010)

Uptown said:


> Yet, despite these four clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. Part of the confusion seems attributable to be the fact that many BPD sufferers also have the bipolar disorder. And part seems due to the practice of many therapists in deliberately "diagnosing" BPD as bipolar because the latter is covered by insurance and is more acceptable to their BPD clients.


Once, I saw where a professional estimated that up to 6% of people in the general population have BPD. I can't help but wonder how many are married to high functioning BP spouses without knowing.

I've never discussed her issues outside a forum like this, but the thing that separates my wife from many people is her physical inability to see gray areas of life. She's all or nothing. She recently tried to urge me to see that parts of our marriage were good. I reminded her that at the time, I was the only one saying so. We experienced years where intimacy was incredible, and weekends at a luxury hotel were common. At the time however, when she sees things as close, it becomes her time to really work on areas that she worries over, so I spend hours discussing how ruined our life is in the area of helping others (we voluunteer alot), or some subject that she worries about at the time. And at those times, if I tried to tell her that, overall, things were good, she would scoff and say they clearly were not. 

The second distinction is her admitted ability to create memories of hurt in her mind. Like schitzophrenia, I can later find out that I did things that I absolutely did not do. And she does not even remember that she broke down on our wedding night, ultimately trying to cut her face because I fell asleep after 4am (and multiple times of lovemaking), and had not slept for days in ferrying her family to the wedding. Fortunately, the self destructive behavior stopped after a few years.

.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

takris said:


> Once, I saw where a professional estimated that up to 6% of people in the general population have BPD.


Takris, the 6% figure (actually, 5.9%) was obtained in face-to-face interviews with nearly 35,000 American adults. The results were published in 2008 in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry. The 6% refers to the lifetime prevalence, which means that that 6% of the population have BPD at the diagnostic level at some point in their lives. A smaller percent, then, would have it at any particular time. 

Yet, IMO, if you also include all the folks who have strong BPD traits that always fall short of the diagnostic level, the percent may well be 10% -- for those would be very difficult to live with. The published article is available for free at Prevalence, Correlates, Disability, and Comorbidity of DSM-IV Borderline Personality Disorder: Results from the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions.


> She broke down on our wedding night, ultimately trying to cut her face because I fell asleep after 4am


Until a person has been through such experiences by living with a BPDer, they imagine that the solution is to hold the BPDer tight to your body and assure her of your deep love. Most folks do not realize that a BPDer fears engulfment almost as much as abandonment. They therefore do not understand that trying to heal a BPDer by loving her is like trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her. Hence, you are simply powerless to help her. She must "fix" herself by learning how to control her emotions.


----------

