# Eric Anderson’s “The Monogamy Gap” thoughts



## GoneDoggy (May 15, 2018)

Just finished reading Eric Anderson’s book The Monogamy Gap, in which he opines that monogamy is a “prison” and against human nature, derived from religious strictures. 
His basic argument is that cheating in marriage (primarily by men) is caused by a need for the excitement of other partners and new sexual experiences. He asserts that men want to be emotionally monogamous but “their body craves sex with other people”. Sort of a biologically driven addiction that requires great effort and willpower to overcome. 
In a nutshell: marital sex becomes boring and unfulfilling after a year or two and they need to have the ability (and permission) to act on physical desires. It appears he is primarily discussing quick flings... when the see someone they consider ‘hot’ and ‘sexy’, they should not be forced to deny themselves. And they still have wife and family to go home to for emotional intimacy, home etc. (IMO - having the excitement but still having someone cook, clean, and raise his children to come home to after wild, animal sex.)
In interviews, he has agreed that while women cheat, their don’t have the overwhelming biological ‘need’ for frequent new sexual partners. 
Basically saying marriage should be open sexually. 
So - I am wondering if people agree with him, that marriage should not require monogamy, that freedom to satisfy one’s sexual desires should be a given, without societal recriminations, etc? Would women and men be as equally satisfied and likely to utilize the sexual freedom? 
As an extension of this, do you believe love and sex are two different things (as in “being in love with” not love for parents, pets)?
Should physical intimacy and emotional intimacy be considered equally important and two separate things?
(And do you really think a man would be okay with his wife seeking sexual intimacy outside the marriage as he does?)
I’m not judging but very curious. As psychology college major (never used the degree tho) the book raised a lot of questions for me.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Sounds like a quack 🦆


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

He is free to either avoid marriage or find a partner will to have an open marriage. One can ask for whatever they want....just be honest.

But I suspect he'd lie like the scum he is


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

GoneDoggy said:


> In interviews, he has agreed that while women cheat, their don’t have the overwhelming biological ‘need’ for frequent new sexual partners.


If there aren't many women who have a need for frequent new sexual partners, WHERE are all these married men going to find hot, sexy women who want emotionless "wild, animal sex" with them...??

I always find it a little humorous that some men think that there are just oodles of interested, available women waiting to have flings with them. I mean, I know there are SOME women like that, sure, but the fantasy that "opening" their marriages will mean that they (men) will get to bang every sexy, exciting woman they see is quite FALSE.

I also think your last question should be, "do you really think most WOMEN would be understanding of their man's 'need' to put in the effort to have wild, animal sex with some other woman, instead of with them"...because I don't think there will be many men getting married without monogamy (or at least the illusion of it) -- and nevermind MARRIAGE - I don't want to have ANY sexual relationship without monogamy!!


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Who is that Belgian woman that sells similar schlock. She had a fairly interview in the Financial Times about 2 years. Supposedly, corporate are buying her advice.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Lots of senseless and thoughtless hostility so far (predictable), and probably no one but the OP has read the book or even the description and reviews on amazon. I haven't read it either (but ordered it), but have read about it and think it would make an interesting read. I know I won't agree with all of it, but there is clearly something to learn if you want to. Most people want monogamy - or at least espouse it - and many cheat anyway. Some are ethically non-monogamous, not having bought into the idea in the first place. Obviously there are depths to human desire and nature that the standard monogamous narrative doesn't address - in fact, they're usually covered up.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

GoneDoggy said:


> So - I am wondering if people agree with him, that marriage should not require monogamy, that freedom to satisfy one’s sexual desires should be a given, without societal recriminations, etc?


IMO, marriage should be what the participants agree to. If that means they _agree_ to monogamy, then that's great. If they agree to something else, then they need to establish just what that is, how it will work, and appropriate rules and boundaries that they may agree to change with time and experience. The problem with all such agreements is that people and circumstances change, and the agreements are relatively inflexible. Some people cheat, some live with unhappiness, some divorce. Human nature isn't going to change, but the nature of relationships (esp. marriage) can - and has constantly changed over time and across (and within) cultures.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

So, MEN should be able to go bang whoever they want because the "need" to act on their desires, and the little wifey will be there waiting for him to come home and be with her to do all the cookin' and cleanin' and taking care of the kids:



GoneDoggy said:


> And they still have wife and family to go home to for emotional intimacy, home etc. (IMO - having the excitement but still having someone cook, clean, and raise his children to come home to after wild, animal sex.)


Why the hell can't you have wild animal sex WITH YOUR WIFE??? What is wrong with THAT idea?

What about the fact that about the same amount of WOMEN now cheat in their marriages. That being the case, but women "their don’t have the overwhelming biological ‘need’ for frequent new sexual partners. "
SO, why do they cheat?

Seems like a REALLY poor try to defend (or self-delude about) cheating. People go to amazing extremes to defend or come up with reasons WHY they should do something, but it's really just twisting or spin doctoring to try to make it seem SO reasonable.

Look at the thread about Christian Swingers.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Well, what do I know. I only have my own experience to go by. The theory doesn't match the data to me.
I do know one man who got bored every few years. He also had a serious problem with selecting crazy. He finally got his head on straight. The solution was never more partners.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

We already have that. It's called open marriage. While you cannot go down to the county clerk and get an Open Marriage Certificate, the authorities won't come banging down your door if you have one. Everything he wants is already available if you can find a willing partner. 

That it is so almost universally frowned on by the members here, even for willing participants, makes me think we are a long way from having it common and socially accepted. But it might happen one day. We have gay marriage now, unheard of at my birth. One thing is for certain - it will never be for everyone.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I think it's gross from a biological standpoint just for starters. I sure don't want to be having sex with a man who is currently having sex with other women. 

Isn't the first suggestion we give people here who even suspect a spouse is cheating ---go get tested for STD/STI? Anytime you have a new partner you are potentially exposed to a whole slew of infections. Yeah, they really are common.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Married but Happy said:


> Lots of senseless and thoughtless hostility so far (predictable), and probably no one but the OP has read the book or even the description and reviews on amazon. I haven't read it either (but ordered it), but have read about it and think it would make an interesting read. I know I won't agree with all of it, but there is clearly something to learn if you want to. Most people want monogamy - or at least espouse it - and many cheat anyway. Some are ethically non-monogamous, not having bought into the idea in the first place. Obviously there are depths to human desire and nature that the standard monogamous narrative doesn't address - in fact, they're usually covered up.


I have NO hostility or judgement against open marriages or relationships at all, but I definitely didn't like how the OP described the author as saying that marriages should be open to satisfy the husband's needs for more variety, and what sounds to me like the opportunity to USE others for sexual gratification, and then USE his wife for his emotional gratification. I realize this is a generalization, but so was his description, and that's what I was reacting to.

Most sex is going to have an emotional cost, and men who think that there are tons of single women who would be thrilled to have NSA sex with them are wrong.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

@LisaDiane, those are valid points. I plan to read the book and will see if that's the author's perspective, or just the way the OP described it. I am totally against men using women for their own gratification. I also feel that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so if an open relationship is good for _some_ men, it is surely also good for _some_ women.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> @LisaDiane, those are valid points. I plan to read the book and will see if that's the author's perspective, or just the way the OP described it. I am totally against men using women for their own gratification. I also feel that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so if an open relationship is good for _some_ men, it is surely also good for _some_ women.


How in our modern society can a man use a woman for his gratification, outside of some fringe religious groups?

If a woman agrees to sex with a man to whom she is not married, she has agreed to playing an active role in his gratification, and presumably to hers as well. What am I misunderstanding?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Cletus said:


> How in our modern society can a man use a woman for his gratification, outside of some fringe religious groups?
> 
> If a woman agrees to sex with a man to whom she is not married, she has agreed to playing an active role in his gratification, and presumably to hers as well. What am I misunderstanding?


Well, it's known that men sometimes lie about their intentions towards a woman, but of course not all women care. Sometimes both just want a sexual experience, and sometimes one wants something more than that.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

I think the concept of "men don't want to be mono" is kid of silly. I don't really believe that it is biological either. 

Further, women also like sex, just like men, some cheat and some don't. I did read a study that women tend to lose attraction to me faster than men do for women. I think that might be true but who really knows. 

When I am with someone that I am in love with I have no trouble being mono. I do not get tired of my partner as long as WE are ok and the relationship is good. 

When I am single, I am not Mono, very much NOT MONO but that is just me. 

I think people can choose to do what they want to do, as long as everyone is honest and truthful. That is what i have an issue with. 

I will say that i cannot be as attached to someone if her and I are causal or open. For men, if the relationship is serious then we are mono.... 

Not everyone feels that way and i am totally cool with that...


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## EveningThoughts (Jul 12, 2018)

Seeing as I asked to open my current marriage, you might be inclined to think I would agree with the author.
But I don't.

Monnagmy is not a prison if you are monogamous through and through.

It is also not totally derived from religious strictures, in my opinion, as plenty of non religious people want monogamy. 
So the feeling and need for it must be part of human nature.

If marital sex becomes boring after a year or two, one of you isn't very good at it. 

Honestly, he sounds like a lech, trying to justify himself.
"Not be forced to deny themselves" seriously!

And what about the wives? There are plenty of wives with desires just as strong, if not stronger.

I'm all in favour of a couple agreeing on what the terms of their own marriage are.
But he seems to only be looking at sexually favourable terms for himself/men, a wannabe hothusband as it were, and us women get to be their cuckqueens.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> How in our modern society can a man use a woman for his gratification, outside of some fringe religious groups?
> 
> If a woman agrees to sex with a man to whom she is not married, she has agreed to playing an active role in his gratification, and presumably to hers as well. What am I misunderstanding?


Well, I meant the CONCEPT of "using" others, and that it will be unappealing to most women if honestly presented.

But even IF a woman agrees to it, she is agreeing to be USED...and so is he...the "consent" doesn't change the situation, and the fact that both people are using eachother as objects.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Married but Happy said:


> @LisaDiane, those are valid points. I plan to read the book and will see if that's the author's perspective, or just the way the OP described it. I am totally against men using women for their own gratification. I also feel that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so if an open relationship is good for _some_ men, it is surely also good for _some_ women.


I almost wish you had already read the book, because I would love to hear what your opinions of it are!


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## DallasCowboyFan (Nov 20, 2012)

There is an emotional component to physical intimacy. I cannot imagine having my needs met by someone other than my wife with the expectation that there would be no fallout. Some may crave multiple partners, but I don't think many lifelong commitments would survive much of that. How would that make the wife feel? What if you like it more with the new girl? What if this results in the wife not having her physical needs met? What if the new girl becomes attached to you? What about jealousy? There are numerous traps here


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Winston Churchill said, ''Democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all others.''

Similarly, in my opinion, monogamous marriage is the worst form of long term coupling, except for all others.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

OnTheFly said:


> Winston Churchill said, ''Democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all others.''
> 
> Similarly, in my opinion, monogamous marriage is the worst form of long term coupling, except for all others.


I love this!!!


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

GoneDoggy said:


> Just finished reading Eric Anderson’s book The Monogamy Gap, in which he opines that *monogamy is *a “prison” and a*gainst human nature*, derived from religious strictures.


I know it will sound strange coming from the poly guy, but I disagree. Religious or not, monogamy seems to be the default with poly being the exception in the same way that heterosexuality is the default with homosexuality and bisexuality being the exceptions. I have no doubts that the monogamy in religions stem more from religious leaders not liking that such exceptions occurred.



> So - I am wondering if people agree with him, that marriage should not require monogamy, that freedom to satisfy one’s sexual desires should be a given, without societal recriminations, etc?


On a social scale yes. Never on an individual scale. That is to say that just because I am polyamorous, I shouldn't expect that someone who prefers monogamy to want to stay with me and just deal with it. Mind you there is poly/mono relationships that work, but it all still comes down to being those involved agree to operate as such.



> Would women and men be as equally satisfied and likely to utilize the sexual freedom?


Only insofar as if it was part of their nature. As noted most people are monogamous. Most marriages don't end due to "cheating". If there is "cheating" prior to the divorce, many times the marriage has already ended, and they haven't bothered to acknowledge it.



> As an extension of this, do you believe love and sex are two different things (as in “being in love with” not love for parents, pets)? Should physical intimacy and emotional intimacy be considered equally important and two separate things?


Yes. Sexual attraction and romantic attraction, while usually found together, are two separate things and can exist independently of each other. While most are aware of sexual attraction without romantic attraction, very few actually comprehend romantic attraction without sexual attraction. Heck, we see it often enough on this forum, with people who are still greatly in love with their spouses, even while having no sex drive or desire. We can also see it with asexuals, especially those with no sex drive. They still want love and companionship, just not sex.



> (And do you really think a man would be okay with his wife seeking sexual intimacy outside the marriage as he does?)


Some will and some won't. Both genders will have those who are open to the idea and others that will be hypocritical about it.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Every person has a limited amount of time and attention that they can spend on relationships. You have to work, sleep, etc so you can't always be tending to your relationship or partner. The only way that this seems to work at all is if there is a large disparity in libido and minimal effort in acquiring a partner. If someone has to spend time and energy seeking, talking to, dating and determining compatibility, and performing the act itself, that would take a large proportion of time and energy that could and likely should be going into the "primary" relationship. I think I might have just determined why the author referenced in the OP ends up with boring sex after a year or two _cough_.

Monogamy, or at the very least serial monogamy, seems to be the only logical relationship type for the majority of people. Followed by solitude and random encounters. The monogamy with cheating / extra-relationship encounters adds lots of complication and effort while not adding much in terms of quality of life compared to the other options.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Married but Happy said:


> If that means they _agree_ to monogamy, then that's great. If they agree to something else, then they need to establish just what that is, how it will work, and appropriate rules and boundaries that they may agree to change with time and experience.


This really applies to monogamy as well. How many times have we seen the person who comes here all confused because their spouse is calling something cheating that they don't think of as cheating. I know of at least two who have had their spouses call masturbating (not to porn, just general doing it) as outright cheating.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Cletus said:


> One thing is for certain - it will never be for everyone.


I think part of the problem is that those who oppose such things, have some strange idea that those of us who want to or do practice such, want it to be done by everyone, instead of just be allowable for us to do so.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Cletus said:


> How in our modern society can a man use a woman for his gratification, outside of some fringe religious groups?
> 
> If a woman agrees to sex with a man to whom she is not married, she has agreed to playing an active role in his gratification, and presumably to hers as well. What am I misunderstanding?


By the man leading them on that there will be more to the relationship than sex.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

BluesPower said:


> I did read a study that women tend to lose attraction to *me* faster than men do for women. I think that might be true but who really knows.


You really shouldn't put yourself down like this. I'm sure that plenty of women love you for long periods of time.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Hiner112 said:


> The monogamy with cheating / extra-relationship encounters adds lots of complication and effort while not adding much in terms of quality of life compared to the other options.


I'm sure that is often true. And I agree that we have a limited amount of time and energy to devote to relationships, given everything else we need to deal with in life. However, my experience is that additional consensual relationships (ranging from FWB to full polyamorous relationships - I exclude cheating as that is anathema to me) can add a tremendous amount of quality of life. I can also say from experience that monogamous relationships may provide everything one would want or need, even over decades. But not for everyone. Still, my additional long-term relationship made for one of the most enjoyable periods in my life. Others' experiences will surely vary - some better, some worse.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

maquiscat said:


> By the man leading them on that there will be more to the relationship than sex.


Caveat emptor. It applies when buying milk and choosing sexual partners.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I’m a man that loved to date around.

I am also extremely monogamous and disinterested in dating around now that I’m married or in an LTR. Just the way I am.

I suspect I’m not alone.


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## GoneDoggy (May 15, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> If there aren't many women who have a need for frequent new sexual partners, WHERE are all these married men going to find hot, sexy women who want emotionless "wild, animal sex" with them...??
> 
> I always find it a little humorous that some men think that there are just oodles of interested, available women waiting to have flings with them. I mean, I know there are SOME women like that, sure, but the fantasy that "opening" their marriages will mean that they (men) will get to bang every sexy, exciting woman they see is quite FALSE.
> 
> I also think your last question should be, "do you really think most WOMEN would be understanding of their man's 'need' to put in the effort to have wild, animal sex with some other woman, instead of with them"...because I don't think there will be many men getting married without monogamy (or at least the illusion of it) -- and nevermind MARRIAGE - I don't want to have ANY sexual relationship without monogamy!!


For me, monogamy is essential. Cheating would have me and the kids out the door fast. And my lawyer on the phone. You want someone else in your bed, good luck. 
I agree that men have the fantasy that gorgeous women will flock to them. Statistics from many sources claim up to 80% of committed relationships/marriages will experience cheating.


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## GoneDoggy (May 15, 2018)

Married but Happy said:


> IMO, marriage should be what the participants agree to. If that means they _agree_ to monogamy, then that's great. If they agree to something else, then they need to establish just what that is, how it will work, and appropriate rules and boundaries that they may agree to change with time and experience. The problem with all such agreements is that people and circumstances change, and the agreements are relatively inflexible. Some people cheat, some live with unhappiness, some divorce. Human nature isn't going to change, but the nature of relationships (esp. marriage) can - and has constantly changed over time and across (and within) cultures.


From only observation of friends of both sexes who chose open relationships or polyamory, there is a very real chance that rules forbidding developing ‘feelings’ for ‘casual’ sex will be broken and emotional attachment occurs. The belief that regular physical intimacy turning into emotional intimacy can be controlled by force of will is laughable. If someone proposes marriage without monogamy they are actually saying “We’ll share a house, you’ll have and raise our children, cook my meals (if I’m not dining with a different partner), do my laundry, handle all the ******** like paying bills, having car fixed, etc and I’ll come home at night. We can have sex if I haven’t gotten it already.” Why marry? I find it hard to believe that someone can maintain separation of physical & emotional intimacy. As someone said to me, “You have my heart & soul, she only has my body”. Said after he admitted cheating on every business trip - which were sometimes weekly and days long. Haven’t spoken to him in 45 yrs.


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## GoneDoggy (May 15, 2018)

jlg07 said:


> So, MEN should be able to go bang whoever they want because the "need" to act on their desires, and the little wifey will be there waiting for him to come home and be with her to do all the cookin' and cleanin' and taking care of the kids:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The author uses the ‘evolutionary’ excuse. From prehistoric time males have instinctually attempted to have sex (and impregnate as many females as possible) to propagate the species. Females want to ‘nest’, have babies in exchange for a males protection, food etc. Males are Therefore not sure if a child is his, so he doesn’t feel deep connection to them. Or the baby mamas one would assume. 
This biological drive remains today, only controlled by force of will.
Author states that men get bored with sex in monogamous relationships but still feels emotional attachment to the original partner. I know there is excitement and anticipation with new partners, but I agree that should still (attempt) to be found with current partner. If sexual excitement was never in a marriage, you aren’t truly compatible.


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## GoneDoggy (May 15, 2018)

jlg07 said:


> What about the fact that about the same amount of WOMEN now cheat in their marriages. That being the case, but women "their don’t have the overwhelming biological ‘need’ for frequent new sexual partners. "
> SO, why do they cheat?


 I’ve read a lot of papers and books on marriage, infidelity, biological differences of the sexes. 
Most agree in some form -
“Men give love for sex, women give sex for love”
“Men just need a place, women need a reason”
Men are quicker to get unfulfilled wants/needs met outside marriage with no intention of ending it. Women hold longer, despite unfulfilled needs/wants in marriage longer, But when the finally set outside the relationship they have give it great thought and are prepared (maybe only subconsciously) for it to end.
I would think that when children are involved the decision can be torturous. Women frequently say “I Love him too much to give up”. I often read male explanations love for their children and home. I notice however they either fail to mention the wife or do not include “I love her too much to leave”. 
This is not universal among cheaters tho. Among those who haven’t been unfaithful, love and respect are most common reasons for fidelity.
Is “love” perceived differently by the sexes?


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## GoneDoggy (May 15, 2018)

OnTheFly said:


> Winston Churchill said, ''Democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all others.''
> 
> Similarly, in my opinion, monogamous marriage is the worst form of long term coupling, except for all others.


If the “evolution & genetics’ theories are true, that women seek physical and emotional intimacy, and need to feel safe, secure, love for herself and offspring, why would any woman accept open marriage, where she shares intimacy and there is a constant threat to those needs from external sources that share those intimacies, time and attention?
I’m sure there are women who prefer limits on commitment and desire variety in sexual partners.


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## GoneDoggy (May 15, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> If there aren't many women who have a need for frequent new sexual partners, WHERE are all these married men going to find hot, sexy women who want emotionless "wild, animal sex" with them...??
> 
> I always find it a little humorous that some men think that there are just oodles of interested, available women waiting to have flings with them. I mean, I know there are SOME women like that, sure, but the fantasy that "opening" their marriages will mean that they (men) will get to bang every sexy, exciting woman they see is quite FALSE.
> 
> I also think your last question should be, "do you really think most WOMEN would be understanding of their man's 'need' to put in the effort to have wild, animal sex with some other woman, instead of with them"...because I don't think there will be many men getting married without monogamy (or at least the illusion of it) -- and nevermind MARRIAGE - I don't want to have ANY sexual relationship without monogamy!!


When I was young (teens to early 20s) I enjoyed a little variety in experiences. It was limited to people I got to know as friends, not ‘hit and run’ and I discovered what I wanted/needed sexually in my marriage. And it was fun. While those relationships sometimes only lasted a few months we remain friends 45 yrs later.


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## GoneDoggy (May 15, 2018)

maquiscat said:


> I know it will sound strange coming from the poly guy, but I disagree. Religious or not, monogamy seems to be the default with poly being the exception in the same way that heterosexuality is the default with homosexuality and bisexuality being the exceptions. I have no doubts that the monogamy in religions stem more from religious leaders not liking that such exceptions occurred.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Quite a few studies have discovered that women are more upset by emotional affairs (“Do you love her? one of the first questins) while men have a harder time accepting physical affairs of their partners, possibly because of males’ innate desire to be/appear strong, have power and respect. Having others ‘taking’ something he possesses/loves subconsciously is a blow to the core needs of masculinity (as defined by the cultural stereotypes of the time).

As polyamory, are you married? And do you live with the other partners? 
Do all the relationships share physical and emotional intimacy or do some lean more toward one or other?
Are you and partners the equivalent of monogamous within the relationship or is it open? 
Curious because close friend - male- was polyamorous back in college days. He and his wife lived with 2 female and 1 male partner. Relationship was also open to one-night stands - not long enough to develop feelings. Things were good for about a year. Then wife got pregnant, he divorced her...It always struck me as a juggling act trying to share time and affection. He’s still in poly relationship. To me, it seemed to be a lot of work - scheduling his time, trying to fulfill wants and needs of partners. Sometimes it’s hard finding time For and meeting needs of a single partner.
(I’m not judging, mostly curious, somewhat confused)


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

GoneDoggy said:


> I’ve read a lot of papers and books on marriage, infidelity, biological differences of the sexes.
> Most agree in some form -
> “Men give love for sex, women give sex for love”
> “Men just need a place, women need a reason”
> ...


Every single man I've talked to about why they cheated eventually admitted part of the attraction was emotional ego validation.

Every single woman I've talked to about why they cheated eventually admitted part of the attraction was just wanting to **** the dude.

People are people. Genders may explain things differently, or have more shame around admitting why they did what they did, but I've found the drivers are almost identical between the genders. The rationalizations come out differently, but they're just rationalizations.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

GoneDoggy said:


> The author uses the ‘evolutionary’ excuse. From prehistoric time males have instinctually attempted to have sex (and impregnate as many females as possible) to propagate the species. Females want to ‘nest’, have babies in exchange for a males protection, food etc. Males are Therefore not sure if a child is his, so he doesn’t feel deep connection to them. Or the baby mamas one would assume.
> This biological drive remains today, only controlled by force of will.
> Author states that men get bored with sex in monogamous relationships but still feels emotional attachment to the original partner. I know there is excitement and anticipation with new partners, but I agree that should still (attempt) to be found with current partner. If sexual excitement was never in a marriage, you aren’t truly compatible.


I get what he was driving at, but the issue I've always had with this "evolution" theory is that it assume we are all just animals that react based on instincts. Humans are SUPPOSED to be self-aware -- and we THINK, not just act according to instinct. While there may be biological drives we have, WE SHOULD THINK about what we are doing.
We take actions, but we also need to be RESPONSIBLE for those actions.
If we were all just acting on instinct, all we would see is people humping each other in the street.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Marduk said:


> Every single man I've talked to about why they cheated eventually admitted part of the attraction was emotional ego validation.


Not for me. It was to fill the sexual hole in my life, no pun intended, and nothing else. Certainly there was an ego component of wanting to be desired in that way, but it was not emotional in any way, as that was not missing from my marriage.

What was missing was a satisfying sex life. The reason I'm even bothering to respond is to counter the pigeon holing that so surrounds this topic - there seems to be no end of others wanting to tell ME why I did something and what it says about me rather than hear the actual reasons.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cletus said:


> Not for me. It was to fill the sexual hole in my life, no pun intended, and nothing else. Certainly there was an ego component of wanting to be desired in that way, but it was not emotional in any way, as that was not missing from my marriage.
> 
> What was missing was a satisfying sex life. The reason I'm even bothering to respond is to counter the pigeon holing that so surrounds this topic - there seems to be no end of others wanting to tell ME why I did something and what it says about me rather than hear the actual reasons.


My point wasn't to say that all affairs were the same. My point was to say that I believe gender mostly only plays into the rationalization component - the stories we tell ourselves and others.

I've known plenty of women that cheated just to get laid. Plenty of men, too. In fact, I think that's a primary driver that most if not everyone feels - attraction to others and a desire to have sex.

It's what allows people to talk themselves into cheating that fascinates me. And our brains aren't very different between the genders for the most part. We're far more alike than unalike.

Were I to ask you a question about your infidelity, for example, it would more likely be about how you talked yourself into allowing yourself to cheat more than the desire to cheat. That is a far more interesting question to me than trying to figure out why **** sapiens has sexual desire hardcoded.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Marduk said:


> Every single man I've talked to about why they cheated eventually admitted part of the attraction was emotional ego validation.
> 
> Every single woman I've talked to about why they cheated eventually admitted part of the attraction was just wanting to **** the dude.
> 
> People are people. Genders may explain things differently, or have more shame around admitting why they did what they did, but I've found the drivers are almost identical between the genders. The rationalizations come out differently, but they're just rationalizations.


You keep trying to say that this is how things REALLY are for men and women, but your proof is just anecdotal...there are studies by psychologists that prove otherwise. YES, there are exceptions, but what you keep trying to state is not the norm. And everyone I've ever talked to (or read about) who cheated or considered it, or even had multiple partners, were overwhelmingly opposite of what you heard from your acquaintances or friends - the people I talked to may have had different ways of explaining how they felt, but when examined, their "drivers" fell along stereotypical lines.

I don't think it matters to note the reasons, except that it's important to have the correct information in order to help people identify their needs better so they can find ways to have them met. And like I said, there ARE exceptions, and I DO believe that men get emotionally attached through sex, and women can avoid it. But remember also, only WOMEN have a biological hormonal attachment response from having sex - men do not. So it would make sense that women seek and form romantic emotional attachments more easily than men. And because of the biology of it, it's NOT sexist to assume that either.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Marduk said:


> *My point wasn't to say that all affairs were the same. My point was to say that I believe gender mostly only plays into the rationalization component - the stories we tell ourselves and others.*
> 
> I've known plenty of women that cheated just to get laid. Plenty of men, too. In fact, I think that's a primary driver that most if not everyone feels - attraction to others and a desire to have sex.
> 
> ...


This is a great point, I think!!! I had never thought of it in this way before!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> You keep trying to say that this is how things REALLY are for men and women, but your proof is just anecdotal...there are studies by psychologists that prove otherwise.


Can you point any of these out?



> YES, there are exceptions, but what you keep trying to state is not the norm. And everyone I've ever talked to (or read about) who cheated or considered it, or even had multiple partners, were overwhelmingly opposite of what you heard from your acquaintances or friends - the people I talked to may have had different ways of explaining how they felt, but when examined, their "drivers" fell along stereotypical lines.
> 
> I don't think it matters to note the reasons, except that it's important to have the correct information in order to help people identify their needs better so they can find ways to have them met. And like I said, there ARE exceptions, and I DO believe that men get emotionally attached through sex, and women can avoid it. But remember also, only WOMEN have a biological hormonal attachment response from having sex - men do not. So it would make sense that women seek and form romantic emotional attachments more easily than men. And because of the biology of it, it's NOT sexist to assume that either.


I'm far less interested in the motivations (which are obvious to me) and far more interested in the justifications. The stories we tell ourselves to rationalize what we want to do, or decide that it's ok, or decide that they did it and they're 'still a good person.' And I'm far less interested in hearing the rationalizations while they're 'in the fog,' because they'll say anything at the time. But, talking to someone that maybe cheated a decade ago, went through therapy after, and now has insights - those are extremely valuable.

Men have hormonal changes as a response to having sex as well:


> According to data from the Journal of Zhejiang University–Science, male testosterone levels exhibit a rhythm that corresponds to recent sexual activity.








Sexual motivation and hormones - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

GoneDoggy said:


> From only observation of friends of both sexes who chose open relationships or polyamory, there is a very real chance that rules forbidding developing ‘feelings’ for ‘casual’ sex will be broken and emotional attachment occurs. The belief that regular physical intimacy turning into emotional intimacy can be controlled by force of will is laughable.


You assume that the rules forbid developing feelings. Some couples do have that rule, and of course sometimes feelings develop. What then? Well, one option is to break off that relationship (which is hard once there are feelings) and some actually do that. Some decide further open things to polyamory. And some make a mess of things, which may lead to divorce. Other couples don't have the rule about developing feelings, and are open to poly relationships from the start (that includes us, but we do have other boundaries that have worked for 20+ years). Yet another subset limits the number of times they can see someone else so that there is little chance that feelings will develop to the point of becoming a problem.

Most of the people who have such problems haven't really thought things through and looked at the potential problems and solutions. Monogamous relationships also suffer from the same lack of foresight.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Marduk said:


> Can you point any of these out?


Oh, I COULD...are you going to make me WORK for this...ugh!!! Lol!
Actually, I had a terrific book about relationships that I read years ago with all kinds of references, but I'm not sure where that went...I'll have to get back to you about exact studies, but I KNOW they are out there, I've seen them and it's what I base my understanding of motivations of behavior on.
There COULD be newer studies that refute the ones I've read about, but I love reading everything I can about that stuff when I see it, so if there are, they aren't mainstream that I've seen. I would definitely want to know if I am wrong, though!



Marduk said:


> I'm far less interested in the motivations (which are obvious to me) and far more interested in the justifications. The stories we tell ourselves to rationalize what we want to do, or decide that it's ok, or decide that they did it and they're 'still a good person.' And I'm far less interested in hearing the rationalizations while they're 'in the fog,' because they'll say anything at the time. *But, talking to someone that maybe cheated a decade ago, went through therapy after, and now has insights - those are extremely valuable. *


I see what you mean with this, and I think it's a very interesting way to look at the things people do!!
For me, I just am just searching for understanding mostly, so I want to know as much as I can about everything. I do find it more effective (for ME) to focus on motivations when dealing with people who are struggling with the consequences of their actions as I try to help them (and understand them). I am NOT at all invested in WHY or whether things go along gender lines or whatever - I just want to know the TRUTH. 
The part I bolded I whole-heartedly agree with you on!!! GREAT point!



Marduk said:


> Men have hormonal changes as a response to having sex as well:


YES, and I think it's SO interesting that as a Testosterone reaction, it's almost the opposite of biological attachment -- I would love to understand WHY humans developed these biological responses, WHAT benefit does it bring each gender?? Our biology encourages or discourages our attachment response after sex...and I bet it varies person to person and encounter to encounter...!! SO interesting!!!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Married but Happy said:


> You assume that the rules forbid developing feelings. Some couples do have that rule, and of course sometimes feelings develop. What then? Well, one option is to break off that relationship (which is hard once there are feelings) and some actually do that. Some decide further open things to polyamory. And some make a mess of things, which may lead to divorce. Other couples don't have the rule about developing feelings, and are open to poly relationships from the start (that includes us, but we do have other boundaries that have worked for 20+ years). Yet another subset limits the number of times they can see someone else so that there is little chance that feelings will develop to the point of becoming a problem.
> 
> Most of the people who have such problems haven't really thought things through and looked at the potential problems and solutions. Monogamous relationships also suffer from the same lack of foresight.


I'm really glad you responded to that, because after he brought that up, I was wondering if that happened and how it was handled!

Observing all the kinds of human relationships we have, I think it's true that most of the issues that poly-couples deal with that could be negative are also risks in monogamous relationships - the difference is that most poly-couples are better at communication and openness, and have less guilt and shame about what happens than mono-couples do. 
I know that there are poly-couples that struggle, but from what I've seen, secrecy and dishonesty cannot be a way to cope for poly-couples, or things fall apart...where it seems to be the opposite with mono-couples.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Marduk said:


> Every single man I've talked to about why they cheated eventually admitted part of the attraction was emotional ego validation.


Here's another question I forgot to ask you!! 

Would you REALLY call ego validation for men emotional...?? From what I've seen with the way men behave, ego isn't emotional...am I wrong...? How do YOU experience that, as a guy?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> Here's another question I forgot to ask you!!
> 
> Would you REALLY call ego validation for me emotional...?? From what I've seen with the way men behave, ego isn't emotional...am I wrong...? How do YOU experience that, as a guy?


Meaning, either they were seeking emotional fulfillment from the third party, or that they were seeking to soothe their ego. 

For example, a guy I know well cheated partly because his wife was very cold. He wanted to be validated that he was attractive and interesting.

What allowed him to cheat was that he had no integrity, but what made him motivated to cheat was that his ego was bruised. Instead of dealing with that in a straightforward way - divorcing his cold wife and dating other people - he chose to try to soothe his ego and emotions on the side while keeping up the pretense that his marriage was working.

I would say that the human ego is an emotional construct - where else would your need to have self-esteem or self-importance come from? Or a sense of identity? I'm not shrink though, so I could totally be wrong.

My point is that his primary driver seemed to be sexual but actually wasn't. It was to be emotionally soothed.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Marduk said:


> Meaning, either they were seeking emotional fulfillment from the third party, or that they were seeking to soothe their ego.
> 
> For example, a guy I know well cheated partly because his wife was very cold. He wanted to be validated that he was attractive and interesting.
> 
> ...


That's TRUE - most of the urge for ego gratification IS emotionally driven. I mean, I suppose that even men who want NSA sex are finding THEIR type of emotional fulfillment, no matter how shallow...

Maybe it's more accurate to look at it as we are ALL emotional beings - it's how we process and respond to our emotional feelings that make us different, and THAT isn't really gender-specific (but it can be) -- ATTACHMENT is more about gender, but again, there are always exceptions.

I know, for ME, I can feel much more emotionally attached from sex than a guy would in some cases, but that doesn't mean that I would respond to that sense of attachment by expecting anything from him. In fact, if I knew it wasn't welcomed by him, I could turn it off and appear very cold and detached. That's probably part of MY ego protecting itself...maybe...? Hmm...interesting...

Thanks!!


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

GoneDoggy said:


> From only observation of friends of both sexes who chose open relationships or polyamory, there is a very real chance that rules forbidding developing ‘feelings’ for ‘casual’ sex will be broken and emotional attachment occurs. The belief that regular physical intimacy turning into emotional intimacy can be controlled by force of will is laughable. If someone proposes marriage without monogamy they are actually saying “We’ll share a house, you’ll have and raise our children, cook my meals (if I’m not dining with a different partner), do my laundry, handle all the ******** like paying bills, having car fixed, etc and I’ll come home at night. We can have sex if I haven’t gotten it already.” Why marry? I find it hard to believe that someone can maintain separation of physical & emotional intimacy. As someone said to me, “You have my heart & soul, she only has my body”. Said after he admitted cheating on every business trip - which were sometimes weekly and days long. Haven’t spoken to him in 45 yrs.


With this whole statement, you seem to have a very large misunderstanding on polyamory at the least, and all of ethical non-monogamy at worst. Since polyamory is about relationships, i.e. feelings, then there would not be a "no feelings" rule to even start with. Furthermore, if it is taken as far as polygamy, then usually they are all living in the same household as I and my three spouses do. You also seem to be approaching it from a perspective of the male is the one with the outside relationships, and the wife doesn't even work outside the house.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

GoneDoggy said:


> As polyamory, are you married? And do you live with the other partners?


2 wives and a husband. Yes we all live in a single household.



> Do all the relationships share physical and emotional intimacy or do some lean more toward one or other?


No. We all share emotional intimacy with each other. I am physically intimate with both wives, and my non-legal wife is physically intimate with both husbands. 



> Are you and partners the equivalent of monogamous within the relationship or is it open?


Open, although not commonly used. I and the non-legal wife tend to make use of the ability more. 



> To me, it seemed to be a lot of work - scheduling his time, trying to fulfill wants and needs of partners. Sometimes it’s hard finding time For and meeting needs of a single partner.
> (I’m not judging, mostly curious, somewhat confused)


It can indeed be, especially if you are not doing "kitchen table poly". I've had a couple of girlfriends that didn't work out because of scheduling issues. Poly has all the same issues as monogamous relationship. Just more dynamics for them to happen through. It takes communication, patience, and many other relationship skills; ones that are not inherent knowledge but need to be learned, whether mono or poly,.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> ... the difference is that most poly-couples are better at communication and openness, and have less guilt and shame about what happens than mono-couples do.


Most successful poly units, or polycules. Two corrections. Sadly, there are many who while being poly (as opposed to being mono thinking that they can be poly), don't have the relationship skills to be successful. Sadly, mono or poly, we have this delusion that being in a relationship is something natural and instinctual. That we somehow know how to be in a relationship. It simply isn't true.


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## GoneDoggy (May 15, 2018)

Marduk said:


> Every single man I've talked to about why they cheated eventually admitted part of the attraction was emotional ego validation.
> 
> Every single woman I've talked to about why they cheated eventually admitted part of the attraction was just wanting to **** the dude.
> 
> People are people. Genders may explain things differently, or have more shame around admitting why they did what they did, but I've found the drivers are almost identical between the genders. The rationalizations come out differently, but they're just rationalizations.


I realize individuals have free will, that life experiences make us all different. Also individual differences in brain function - push-pull between limbic (bestows pleasure from eating and sex, for survival of the species) and frontal cortex ( judgment & decision making), that Is responsible for addicts and bad decisions- like cheating or eating the whole cake). 

You do not agree with psych findings that women are more likely to cheat when they have been unhappy in a relationship for a lengthy period of time and seek love / a more fulfilling relationship, not temporary attention and/or validation of desirability? I think women hesitate to cheat because of fear of losing custody of their children.

Do men in the heat of the moment think of their children (if not their wife) and call a halt? It’s been shown that for men, libido is tied to visuals visual, see it- lust for it. Testosterone floods system & can overwhelm critical thinking momentarily. One-night-stands or the ‘anonymous quickie’ associated most often with men.
Psychologists believe women are more selective about sexual partners, needing to get to know them at least a little and find some connection - real or imagined, making them less likely to act purely on lust.

I’ve known quite a few women who did act spontaneously when we were young and single tho. I’m wondering if that is considered merely a youthful female ‘sowing ones wild oats’ or did I just hang out with a lot of sluts back then🤔. 

Men’s ability to compartmentalize the different parts of their lives where women’s minds entangle all parts of their lives. Plays a part in the ONS. What the WS calls ‘the mistake’. Neurobiology

I refuse to believe that those who need monogamy are really just acting on Puritanical (religious) tenets. How does that account for those of us raised without any religious experience (both my parents were agnostic) but who demand monogamy in relationships?

Which leads me back to - do the sexes have different definitions of love, intimacy in relationships? Is it expectations?
What explains (primarily) women who can have ONS when single but want monogamy in committed relationships? 

Ultimately, author’s attempt to tie everything to prehistoric DNA seems like an excuse for male infidelity/promiscuity

This book gave me more questions than answers. And my logical, accounting degree side can’t stand it.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

GoneDoggy said:


> I realize individuals have free will, that life experiences make us all different. Also individual differences in brain function - push-pull between limbic (bestows pleasure from eating and sex, for survival of the species) and frontal cortex ( judgment & decision making), that Is responsible for addicts and bad decisions- like cheating or eating the whole cake).
> 
> You do not agree with psych findings that women are more likely to cheat when they have been unhappy in a relationship for a lengthy period of time and seek love / a more fulfilling relationship, not temporary attention and/or validation of desirability? I think women hesitate to cheat because of fear of losing custody of their children.


No, I don't agree with these kinds of findings (which I've never seen, so I'm speculating) - because it is illogical. But it depends on what you mean by correlation or causation. 

People cheat while in happy relationships all the time. In fact, one of the most common things cheaters eventually say is things like "I don't know why I did it," "It didn't seem like it was me," "I never stopped loving you," or "It had nothing to do with you." Therefore, at least some affairs have nothing at all to do with the relationship.

Secondly, cheaters lie. Rationalization is a thing. Cheaters _claim_ all kinds of things, even though they are provably not true. For example, my buddy's wife claimed my buddy refused to have sex with her, when the reality is she was refusing to have sex with him, and even claimed to be asexual. My own wife started a secret texting relationship with a guy she knew from years ago literally while she was telling me and everyone else that she was the happiest she'd ever been in our relationship. After it blew up, she _then _claimed our relationship was bad. I literally had to bring out old videos and notes from her demonstrating the opposite. She struggled reconciling the two. Eventually she conceded the texting had nothing at all to do with me or our marriage.

Thirdly, people in unhappy marriages don't always cheat. There's lots of those people here. If bad relationships help create infidelity, you should see an uptick in cheating in those relationships. You simply don't. 

Even the world's leading cheating apologist - Esther Perel - says clearly that most affairs do not have anything at all to do with the marriage.



> Do men in the heat of the moment think of their children (if not their wife) and call a halt? It’s been shown that for men, libido is tied to visuals visual, see it- lust for it. Testosterone floods system & can overwhelm critical thinking momentarily. One-night-stands or the ‘anonymous quickie’ associated most often with men.


Show me the data for that - because I've talked to plenty of women that have had ONS while married.



> Psychologists believe women are more selective about sexual partners, needing to get to know them at least a little and find some connection - real or imagined, making them less likely to act purely on lust.


I'm sure loads of women are like this. I also know of loads of men that are like this. And I've slept with a number of women within hours or even minutes of meeting them. So who's to say. Timing of where they are at in their life is probably a factor.



> I’ve known quite a few women who did act spontaneously when we were young and single tho. I’m wondering if that is considered merely a youthful female ‘sowing ones wild oats’ or did I just hang out with a lot of sluts back then🤔.


Agreed.



> Men’s ability to compartmentalize the different parts of their lives where women’s minds entangle all parts of their lives. Plays a part in the ONS. What the WS calls ‘the mistake’. Neurobiology


I think that's a massive over-generalization. 



> I refuse to believe that those who need monogamy are really just acting on Puritanical (religious) tenets. How does that account for those of us raised without any religious experience (both my parents were agnostic) but who demand monogamy in relationships?


I agree with that. I'm that way.



> Which leads me back to - do the sexes have different definitions of love, intimacy in relationships? Is it expectations?


I think that the stories we tell ourselves are colored by what society demands of us as a gender, but I think the motivations are usually the same between the genders. There is far more variety in a gender than there is on average between them.



> What explains (primarily) women who can have ONS when single but want monogamy in committed relationships?


I can't explain that, because I don't believe it's primarily women.



> Ultimately, author’s attempt to tie everything to prehistoric DNA seems like an excuse for male infidelity/promiscuity
> 
> This book gave me more questions than answers. And my logical, accounting degree side can’t stand it.


Agreed there.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

maquiscat said:


> Most successful poly units, or polycules. Two corrections. Sadly, there are many who while being poly *(as opposed to being mono thinking that they can be poly)*, don't have the relationship skills to be successful. Sadly, mono or poly, we have this delusion that being in a relationship is something natural and instinctual. That we somehow know how to be in a relationship. It simply isn't true.


I agree with this completely - we are selfish creatures at heart, which is ok except when we decide we want to include someone else in our lives...then we need to turn that selfishness into self-LESS-ness to have a rewarding relationship, but it does NOT come naturally to do this!!!

The part I bolded is something I hadn't thought was possible...but of course it is!!


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm happily married and non-monogomous. And I think the author is full of crap if their views were accurately represented here.

I have a wife of twelve years and a girlfriend of one year... But my relationship with my girlfriend is mostly non-sexual. My girlfriend and I share a lot of very deeply intimate moments, both when we are together and when we are apart, but very few of them are sexual.

I have a much more sexual relationship with my wife. When apart, my wife and I sext a lot, share nudes, sexual fantasies, etc. She used to operate and maintain nuclear reactors. Nowadays, she learns languages with me. When apart, we often practice our vocab with each other when we aren't teasing each other with sexting or coordinating everyday mundane things.

My girlfriend and I share views on social topics, share hobbies(electronics, coding, radio technologies), and express desire to spend shared experiences with each other when we are apart. When we are together, we mostly cuddle and share hobbies. We rarely do anything sexual, but often do things that are considered intimate(cuddle, kiss, hug, etc). We are both ham radio operators(extra), both in technology related fields. She does support for the computer research department of a learning institution, and I hunt down bad guys so that green berets can kill or capture them(internet and radio tech).


I love them both dearly. And fiercely. I love them as they are. And most of all, I love them because I want to. I want to see them happy... I want that more than anything.


I really dislike the idea that men and women are slaves to their biology. I dislike it because I see it as complete bull crap. People are individuals. We are all the same in the sense that we are all experiencing the same world, but we are all individual in the sense that we are experiencing the world from our unique perspectives.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> *If there aren't many women who have a need for frequent new sexual partners, WHERE are all these married men going to find hot, sexy women who want emotionless "wild, animal sex" with them...??*
> 
> I always find it a little humorous that some men think that there are just oodles of interested, available women waiting to have flings with them. I mean, I know there are SOME women like that, sure, but the fantasy that "opening" their marriages will mean that they (men) will get to bang every sexy, exciting woman they see is quite FALSE.
> 
> I also think your last question should be, "do you really think most WOMEN would be understanding of their man's 'need' to put in the effort to have wild, animal sex with some other woman, instead of with them"...because I don't think there will be many men getting married without monogamy (or at least the illusion of it) -- and nevermind MARRIAGE - I don't want to have ANY sexual relationship without monogamy!!


LOL.. Funny how people making this argument forget that it takes two. 😅😂🤣


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

NextTimeAround said:


> Who is that Belgian woman that sells similar schlock. She had a fairly interview in the Financial Times about 2 years. Supposedly, corporate are buying her advice.


Esther Perel. She is in la la land , too.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

I'm a divorce attorney. Can't tell you how many times I meet couples who thought they could make their marriage work by opening it up and then one of the partners gets attached to a new partner and brings everything crashing down. I'm frequently shocked by how people don't anticipate this possibility and how they think an open marriage creates a solid foundation for parenting of children. I find myself wanting to say "What did you expect?"


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Parallax857 said:


> I'm a divorce attorney. Can't tell you how many times I meet couples who thought they could make their marriage work by opening it up and then one of the partners gets attached to a new partner and brings everything crashing down. I'm frequently shocked by how people don't anticipate this possibility and how they think an open marriage creates a solid foundation for parenting of children. I find myself wanting to say "What did you expect?"


This doesn't surprise me (especially the lack of foresight and evaluation of consequences). They were probably headed for divorce regardless, and figured, why not? Then this issue becomes the focus of the breakup.

If my ex had offered an open marriage, I might have taken her up on it. No doubt I'd have left anyway, whether or not I met someone else who was better.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> This doesn't surprise me (especially the lack of foresight and evaluation of consequences). They were probably headed for divorce regardless, and figured, why not? Then this issue becomes the focus of the breakup.
> 
> If my ex had offered an open marriage, I might have taken her up on it. No doubt I'd have left anyway, whether or not I met someone else who was better.


Yes, I agree they probably would have gotten there sooner. But the divorce typically gets much harder once there's been a betrayal. And even though there was permission to sleep with someone else, there can still be a sense of betrayal, particularly when one is being left for another. People get surprised by how complex the emotions can be. Once again I find myself perplexed that they didn't see the potential challenges.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Parallax857 said:


> I'm a divorce attorney. Can't tell you how many times I meet couples who thought they could make their marriage work by opening it up and then one of the partners gets attached to a new partner and brings everything crashing down. I'm frequently shocked by how people don't anticipate this possibility and how they think an open marriage creates a solid foundation for parenting of children. I find myself wanting to say "What did you expect?"


Pretty standard. If your marriage is not already stable, then opening it up isn't going to solve the problems already there.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Why the hell do people cheat for sex? Does their hand stop working? 

I have never understood it. Masturbate, and suddenly you aren't horny anymore.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

If sex is just about physical release, sure. It can be so many other things though. It can represent approval, a sort of ego gratification. It can be about emotional connection with the partner. For some, there's a spiritual dimension. This is not an exhaustive list. Just my very limited sense of some of the possibilities.

I do think that many people stray and then live to regret it. When they see the pain it causes a partner, or when they destroy a relationship, or when they realize they have to live with their own conscience.


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## CupCake522 (Mar 24, 2013)

GoneDoggy said:


> Just finished reading Eric Anderson’s book The Monogamy Gap, in which he opines that monogamy is a “prison” and against human nature, derived from religious strictures.
> His basic argument is that cheating in marriage (primarily by men) is caused by a need for the excitement of other partners and new sexual experiences. He asserts that men want to be emotionally monogamous but “their body craves sex with other people”. Sort of a biologically driven addiction that requires great effort and willpower to overcome.
> In a nutshell: marital sex becomes boring and unfulfilling after a year or two and they need to have the ability (and permission) to act on physical desires. It appears he is primarily discussing quick flings... when the see someone they consider ‘hot’ and ‘sexy’, they should not be forced to deny themselves. And they still have wife and family to go home to for emotional intimacy, home etc. (IMO - having the excitement but still having someone cook, clean, and raise his children to come home to after wild, animal sex.)
> In interviews, he has agreed that while women cheat, their don’t have the overwhelming biological ‘need’ for frequent new sexual partners.
> ...





GoneDoggy said:


> Just finished reading Eric Anderson’s book The Monogamy Gap, in which he opines that monogamy is a “prison” and against human nature, derived from religious strictures.
> His basic argument is that cheating in marriage (primarily by men) is caused by a need for the excitement of other partners and new sexual experiences. He asserts that men want to be emotionally monogamous but “their body craves sex with other people”. Sort of a biologically driven addiction that requires great effort and willpower to overcome.
> In a nutshell: marital sex becomes boring and unfulfilling after a year or two and they need to have the ability (and permission) to act on physical desires. It appears he is primarily discussing quick flings... when the see someone they consider ‘hot’ and ‘sexy’, they should not be forced to deny themselves. And they still have wife and family to go home to for emotional intimacy, home etc. (IMO - having the excitement but still having someone cook, clean, and raise his children to come home to after wild, animal sex.)
> In interviews, he has agreed that while women cheat, their don’t have the overwhelming biological ‘need’ for frequent new sexual partners.
> ...


HE SOUNDS CRAZY WHY GET MARRIED IF YOU WANT TO SLEEP AROUND .


GoneDoggy said:


> Just finished reading Eric Anderson’s book The Monogamy Gap, in which he opines that monogamy is a “prison” and against human nature, derived from religious strictures.
> His basic argument is that cheating in marriage (primarily by men) is caused by a need for the excitement of other partners and new sexual experiences. He asserts that men want to be emotionally monogamous but “their body craves sex with other people”. Sort of a biologically driven addiction that requires great effort and willpower to overcome.
> In a nutshell: marital sex becomes boring and unfulfilling after a year or two and they need to have the ability (and permission) to act on physical desires. It appears he is primarily discussing quick flings... when the see someone they consider ‘hot’ and ‘sexy’, they should not be forced to deny themselves. And they still have wife and family to go home to for emotional intimacy, home etc. (IMO - having the excitement but still having someone cook, clean, and raise his children to come home to after wild, animal sex.)
> In interviews, he has agreed that while women cheat, their don’t have the overwhelming biological ‘need’ for frequent new sexual partners.
> ...


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## CupCake522 (Mar 24, 2013)

Why get married if you want to sleep around , this author is crazy 😜.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

As'laDain said:


> Why the hell do people cheat for sex? Does their hand stop working?
> 
> I have never understood it. Masturbate, and suddenly you aren't horny anymore.


My first marriage was sexless or almost sexless for the last year, and I can tell you it was pretty hurtful. It wasn’t just the horniness that was the problem, it was the distance and coldness in the relationship that really hurt.

However, I didn’t cheat on her, even when I had opportunities. She had been cheating on me however, and that was a driver behind her no longer wanting to have sex with me.


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## CupCake522 (Mar 24, 2013)

Marduk said:


> My first marriage was sexless or almost sexless for the last year, and I can tell you it was pretty hurtful. It wasn’t just the horniness that was the problem, it was the distance and coldness in the relationship that really hurt.
> 
> However, I didn’t cheat on her, even when I had opportunities. She had been cheating on me however, and that was a driver behind her no longer wanting to have sex with me.


Wow I am so sorry that you went through this you deserve better, if you are willing maybe try therapy but for me it would be a deal breaker good luck .


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

CupCake522 said:


> Wow I am so sorry that you went through this you deserve better, if you are willing maybe try therapy but for me it would be a deal breaker good luck .


Oh, don’t worry about me. That was more than 20 years ago. She left, I partied my ass off, met my new wife, and we’ve been together almost 20 years.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> Why the hell do people cheat for sex? Does their hand stop working?
> 
> I have never understood it. Masturbate, and suddenly you aren't horny anymore.


My hand will never desire me sexually, no matter how much I sweet talk it. 

Reminds me of the joke a friend told in college. He pours part of a beer over his hand. When someone asks what the hell he's doing, he replies "just getting my date drunk".


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

CupCake522 said:


> Why get married if you want to sleep around , this author is crazy 😜.


Because not everyone has this idea that marriage is a limiter for such. Marriage is much more than who you are going to have sex with.


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## dazedbeauty (Sep 25, 2010)

GoneDoggy said:


> Just finished reading Eric Anderson’s book The Monogamy Gap, in which he opines that monogamy is a “prison” and against human nature, derived from religious strictures.
> His basic argument is that cheating in marriage (primarily by men) is caused by a need for the excitement of other partners and new sexual experiences. He asserts that men want to be emotionally monogamous but “their body craves sex with other people”. Sort of a biologically driven addiction that requires great effort and willpower to overcome.
> In a nutshell: marital sex becomes boring and unfulfilling after a year or two and they need to have the ability (and permission) to act on physical desires. It appears he is primarily discussing quick flings... when the see someone they consider ‘hot’ and ‘sexy’, they should not be forced to deny themselves. And they still have wife and family to go home to for emotional intimacy, home etc. (IMO - having the excitement but still having someone cook, clean, and raise his children to come home to after wild, animal sex.)
> In interviews, he has agreed that while women cheat, their don’t have the overwhelming biological ‘need’ for frequent new sexual partners.
> ...


Hello, I believe the author of the book is incorrect. If we think about it closely, considering this is a psychology course, animals that run around mating with different "partners" do not psychologize their mating rituals. They are incapable of being able to choose, and do not have intimate emotions as do humans, so I find it odd that this reading material would be associated with a psychology course. Mere animals lack the brain matter for physical intimacy, even though quite a few animals are monogamous, not to say that it's their conscious choice to be that way, it's just nature running it's course. 
Humans, on the other hand, can choose. We do choose. Physical and emotional intimacy are not different. A physical act is merely "animal" with no intimate emotions unless there is an emotional connection. I hope I'm making sense. 
This subject has been argued basically forever. 
I say, let's look at the physical human body and move away from emotions altogether. What happens when a woman has multiple partners? She gets disease. I'm not saying that the man has to have an STD. I'm saying that multiple partners affect a woman's flora. She must adapt to her male partner. If she changes partners, then her body will react to the different male's body fluids as if they are foreign and invaders, her cervix gets "sick" so to speak. She becomes very susceptible to bacterial vaginosis, yeast infections, and other maladies. We don't see condoms in nature, so to say "use a condom" doesn't address the human condition. 
The author of this book, in my opinion, has a very sexist, actually misogynistic view of women, possibly even be a narcisist. I say this because women cook, clean, care for children, the home, etc. out of love and devotion, not out of pure instinct (although I must say there are some women that have a "knack" for it where others do not.) 
A good study would be to watch the show "Sister Wives." This show features a polygamist man married to 4 different women. The very dynamics will show you how unhealthy the whole situation is, how the women are depressed, angry and extremely jealous of one another. After watching a few episodes, it's not hard to figure out the pecking order and what is most likely going on behind the scenes.
Intimacy during sex is getting to really know the other person at a very deep level and can hardly be put into a few words, hence the millions of love songs expressing the same thing, but in different words. 
Great topic!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> You keep trying to say that this is how things REALLY are for men and women, but your proof is just anecdotal...there are studies by psychologists that prove otherwise. YES, there are exceptions, but what you keep trying to state is not the norm. And everyone I've ever talked to (or read about) who cheated or considered it, or even had multiple partners, were overwhelmingly opposite of what you heard from your acquaintances or friends - the people I talked to may have had different ways of explaining how they felt, but when examined, their "drivers" fell along stereotypical lines.
> 
> I don't think it matters to note the reasons, except that it's important to have the correct information in order to help people identify their needs better so they can find ways to have them met. And like I said, there ARE exceptions, and I DO believe that men get emotionally attached through sex, and women can avoid it. But remember also, only WOMEN have a biological hormonal attachment response from having sex - men do not. So it would make sense that women seek and form romantic emotional attachments more easily than men. And because of the biology of it, it's NOT sexist to assume that either.


I'm actually in agreement with him.

Women pretty much cheat for the same reasons men do.

Women love hot sex and are just as tempted to take a hot guy for a spin for the pleasure of it as a man.

A lot of the "trusted" research is based on very outdated and proven wrong concepts about women's sexuality.

I have a lot of personal, or anecdotal, evidence that falls directly in line with more up to date studies on women and sex.

I've had young mother's, holding their infants, offer me afternoon delight with absolutely no intention of leaving their husbands or connecting with me in any other way than sexual.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I'm actually in agreement with him.
> 
> Women pretty much cheat for the same reasons men do.
> 
> ...


I agree. Women are just as likely to have a "fling" for the sexual thrill when they are in an otherwise happy marriage. This is my experience with what happen with my STBXW.

For all the differences between men and women, some things are universal whether we want to admit them or not.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

About the OP.....

The author is simply pathetic if he believes the drivel proposed in the opening post.

Women like strange just as much as men.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> About the OP.....
> 
> The author is simply pathetic if he believes the drivel proposed in the opening post.
> 
> Women like strange just as much as men.


And in my case they sometimes like multiple strange at the same time! Hahaha


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> And in my case they sometimes like multiple strange at the same time! Hahaha


I'm a little hesitant to read your story...😉


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I'm a little hesitant to read your story...😉


I understand, I was a little hesitant to live through it 👍


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I'm actually in agreement with him.
> 
> Women pretty much cheat for the same reasons men do.
> 
> ...


I believe you (and @Marduk) about what you've experienced and seen, I was just saying MY experience and what I've read is where I've developed MY particular beliefs about it...I'm open to being wrong (as always), and that's why it fascinates me to hear about the experiences that others have had...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> ...I'm open to being wrong (as always), and that's why it fascinates me to hear about the experiences that others have had...


I've always enjoyed reading others ideas and thoughts, especially when science and psychology are used to try and explain/validate beliefs different than my own. 

One of the driving factors of many open marriages is the notion that someone is struggling with fear of abandonment and trying to control and confront it. Think through that for a moment and try to figure out where the euphoria really comes from when someone tries to play around with and validate that form of fear. Also think about why fear of abandonment would make monogamy impossible for some. 

I just slept with someone else and you didn't leave me = yay!
You slept with someone else and you didn't leave me = yay!
I slept with someone else and afterwards they wanted nothing more but I still have you = yay!
You slept with someone else and the left you and now you really need me = yay! 
so on and so on....

Seems like a dynamic of self harm if you ask me. If you want to poke holes in someone that likes open marriages, you have to ask questions like:

Why don't you encourage your spouse to really fall in love with a new partner?
Why don't you allow yourself to really fall in love with a new partner?
Do you want a new partner to really fall in love with you and develop a long term love affair, and is your spouse OK with that?
Do you want to love a new partner more than your spouse?
Do you want a new partner to love you more than your spouse does?
Do you want a new partner to love your spouse more than you do?

Those questions will create some conflicts with the euphoria dynamics needed in order for someone to "comfortably" play around with their fear of abandonment. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

Ooo this is a tough one. Haven't read up on it much, so I can't say. But if I had to add my thoughts, I think there are people that do want monogamy (or else they wouldn't get jealous if their partner is talking to/bonding with someone else), but there are also a minor amount of people that really shouldn't be married at all (biologically speaking), and are pressured to do it by their culture/society (which was the case with an uncle's ex wife, marriage just wasn't for her). I think if people are honest with themselves (and don't listen to what their cultures/society dictates), they can make the choice to be monogamous or not, as long as you're honest about it. 

I think cheating happens because you put yourself in that position, not sure if it's biological...there are so many social media outlets and sites dedicated to it. Plus the mainstream media makes it look cool and more acceptable, so the stakes go up.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> I believe you (and @Marduk) about what you've experienced and seen, I was just saying MY experience and what I've read is where I've developed MY particular beliefs about it...I'm open to being wrong (as always), and that's why it fascinates me to hear about the experiences that others have had...


There was a case of adultery in the church when I was pretty new to ministry that blew my mind, and some theories about women cheating, totally up.

There was a very happily married woman who had been taught inaccurately about women's sexuality and sexual sin by the church her whole life.

She thought sexual sin didn't affect women, only men. She didn't think herself susceptible to it.

After 20 years of a a very good and happy marriage, she got into a chat room with some guy from Florida and eventually flew out for a weekend of debauchery with him. She told her trusting husband she was going to some type of reunion and he paid for everything and took the time she was gone to watch their children.

After getting her ashes hauled all weekend, she told the scum she defiled her marriage for that it was a one time deal. She felt guilty.

She eventually confessed after three years because it was eating her up and affecting her relationship with her husband and children.

She never wanted out of her marriage or even fell in love with the idiot. She just wanted to get her brains ****ed out and she did.

This stuff happens a lot.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I've had young mother's, holding their infants, offer me afternoon delight with absolutely no intention of leaving their husbands or connecting with me in any other way than sexual.


Eeewy!!! Lol!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> There was a case of adultery in the church when I was pretty new to ministry that blew my mind, and some theories about women cheating, totally up.
> 
> There was a very happily married woman who had been taught inaccurately about women's sexuality and sexual sin by the church her whole life.
> 
> ...


See, now this is where I don't understand why she couldn't get her needs for having her brains ****ed out met with her husband...there was something missing for her that was triggered by the chatroom guy, that I wonder why she didn't talk to her husband about it. I mean, I know it's not really as simple as that in alot of cases, but MY first move would be to find out what I felt like I needed (excitement, variety, more attention, etc), and try to have that met with my partner.

It couldn't have been that great for her if she never wanted to do it again...

Did her marriage survive...?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> I've always enjoyed reading others ideas and thoughts, especially when science and psychology are used to try and explain/validate beliefs different than my own.
> 
> One of the driving factors of many open marriages is the notion that someone is struggling with fear of abandonment and trying to control and confront it. Think through that for a moment and try to figure out where the euphoria really comes from when someone tries to play around with and validate that form of fear. Also think about why fear of abandonment would make monogamy impossible for some.
> 
> ...


Oh, THIS is a really interesting way of thinking about open marriages!!! I want to think about this for a little while, because although I may not totally agree with what you are saying (I'm not sure if I do yet), this is VERY thought-provoking!!!

Thank you for this very intelligent viewpoint! I MIGHT get back to you with some questions... ;-)


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> See, now this is where I don't understand why she couldn't get her needs for having her brains ****ed out met with her husband...there was something missing for her that was triggered by the chatroom guy, that I wonder why she didn't talk to her husband about it. I mean, I know it's not really as simple as that in alot of cases, but MY first move would be to find out what I felt like I needed (excitement, variety, more attention, etc), and try to have that met with my partner.
> 
> It couldn't have been that great for her if she never wanted to do it again...
> 
> Did her marriage survive...?


I imagine this is a case of reality not matching expectations, having some similar first-hand experience. 

When your partner cannot or will not meet you half way on sex, it's easy to build up an alternative reality where the other person is the Answer to All Your Prayers. When it doesn't work out like you planned, you have two ways to think about it. 1) Wrong affair partner, the next one will be better or 2) Wow, this really is not what I wanted, I need to reevaluate my priorities.

If you land on #2, it can save your marriage.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

I don't pretend to know everything. There is much about sex and relationships that will forever remain a mystery to me. But I do think there are differences between men and women. Sociologists speak of threshold dimorphic behavior. Certain behaviors for men and women can be plotted on bell curves but the curves for men and women are not the same. They may, and typically do, overlap. So there may be women who like to carouse but not as many as there are among men. That sort of thing. 

In my experience as a divorce attorney, the vast majority of women who cheat do so for emotional reasons. Something's missing for them. Men sometimes cheat for similar reasons. But men are more likely than women to cheat for approval and ego gratification, the goodhousekeeping seal of approval from knowing that someone attractive wants to sleep with them. Men are more likely than women to cheat for recreational pleasure and to compartmentalize it and rationalize it away as irrelevant. Of course women do these things too. Just less often.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> See, now this is where I don't understand why she couldn't get her needs for having her brains ****ed out met with her husband...there was something missing for her that was triggered by the chatroom guy, that I wonder why she didn't talk to her husband about it. I mean, I know it's not really as simple as that in alot of cases, but MY first move would be to find out what I felt like I needed (excitement, variety, more attention, etc), and try to have that met with my partner.
> 
> It couldn't have been that great for her if she never wanted to do it again...
> 
> Did her marriage survive...?


You see, to you this is unreal right? But think about this...

If I was the guy I used to be, which I am not and I never will be again, there are so many married women out there that have laid it out to me several times. I think mostly because my F talks about our, her words, great sex too much. I am not temped but I think she makes the other girls feel bad.

Now I am not interested in anything like that, I am past it and have been past it.

But I have learned this, People will stay in relationships with bad or infrequent sex for a lot of reasons. While I would not, I seem to be some type of anathema.

Like the woman in Conan's story, her husband probably sucks at sex, or she just got board. It happens every day.

I am not saying any of this is right, I am just saying that it is...


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> You see, to you this is unreal right? But think about this...
> 
> If I was the guy I used to be, which I am not and I never will be again, there are so many married women out there that have laid it out to me several times. I think mostly because my F talks about our, her words, great sex too much. I am not temped but I think she makes the other girls feel bad.
> 
> ...


If the sex isn't good, it's usually about much more than sex. Sex is for most folks a kind of canary in the coal mine. It's the first thing that goes when communication breaks down and resentments build up. Most of the women offering themselves, I suggest, are looking for more than sex. You may have a look or a persona onto which they project their fantasy of having their needs met. This may cause you to get more opportunities than the average guy. But it's not just about the sex itself.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> I imagine this is a case of reality not matching expectations, having some similar first-hand experience.
> 
> When your partner cannot or will not meet you half way on sex, it's easy to build up an alternative reality where the other person is the Answer to All Your Prayers. When it doesn't work out like you planned, you have two ways to think about it. 1) Wrong affair partner, the next one will be better or 2) Wow, this really is not what I wanted, I need to reevaluate my priorities.
> 
> If you land on #2, it can save your marriage.


But tell me...if you are married to someone who won't meet you halfway on sex (ie: doesn't care about your needs), then WHY would you want to save your marriage...?

To me, that refusal means way more than just "sex"...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BluesPower said:


> You see, to you this is unreal right? But think about this...
> 
> If I was the guy I used to be, which I am not and I never will be again, there are so many married women out there that have laid it out to me several times. I think mostly because my F talks about our, her words, great sex too much. I am not temped but I think she makes the other girls feel bad.
> 
> ...


Well, maybe YOU need to be talking to THEIR husbands/partners about upping their moves...!!
Those women still seem a little silly to me, though...just because sex is good for one woman doesn't mean the same thing would be considered good by another woman...

I think I would be willing to stay in a sexless marriage out of love in my heart, but I would definitely be having sex with someone else...Lol!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Parallax857 said:


> If the sex isn't good, it's usually about much more than sex. Sex is for most folks a kind of canary in the coal mine. It's the first thing that goes when communication breaks down and resentments build up. Most of the women offering themselves, I suggest, are looking for more than sex. You may have a look or a persona onto which they project their fantasy of having their needs met. This may cause you to get more opportunities than the average guy. But it's not just about the sex itself.


This is a great point!!! However, there ARE lots of people who post on here that they are so happy with their relationship in every way except the sex...and I always wonder if there is something else lurking underneath the "happiness" they feel, that they are distracted from because they are unsatisfied with their sex life...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Oh, THIS is a really interesting way of thinking about open marriages!!! I want to think about this for a little while, because although I may not totally agree with what you are saying (I'm not sure if I do yet), this is VERY thought-provoking!!!
> 
> Thank you for this very intelligent viewpoint! I MIGHT get back to you with some questions... ;-)


There are also additional factors that drive open marriages. One example is suppressed bisexuality expressed via proxy. For example a husband is bisexual and refuses to accept that part of himself. He can however enjoy having sex with other men by having his wife do that for him. Perhaps she might even allow him to watch as a way for him to feel and experience the moment which can enable him to remain in a state of denial.

This also happens with women that are bisexual in that a threesome might be explored or she may observe her husband with another woman as a way to enjoy her suppressed sexuality via proxy. 

Then you have people that are completely open about bisexuality and embrace it in the form of an open marriage, but still trying to be creative enough to maintain the traditional stance of having a family together. 

So there many things that can drive people to be nonmonogamous. Fear of Abandonment is perhaps the most fascinating in how dynamic it can manifest itself. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> This is a great point!!! However, there ARE lots of people who post on here that they are so happy with their relationship in every way except the sex...and I always wonder if there is something else lurking underneath the "happiness" they feel, that they are distracted from because they are unsatisfied with their sex life...


There are some psychologists that have the philosophy that sex actually should be difficult in marriage. At some point in a marriage sex becomes more about if you are able to love and accept yourself while in the sexual presence of your spouse. THAT is a very difficult thing for people to do. It can be easier to distract yourself from that hot mess (of one's low self confidence) and just go find someone else to f*** as opposed to allowing a spouse to truly see you and know you. 

Everyone has two personas. First is the person they strive to be (better), and second is the person they actually are (imperfect). Too many people choose to try and make love in marriage as the first persona and never get around to learning how to love and accept the second. In other words everything sex-wise is often based on enabling each other to believe the lie that they will become a better person.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> But tell me...if you are married to someone who won't meet you halfway on sex (ie: doesn't care about your needs), then WHY would you want to save your marriage...?
> 
> To me, that refusal means way more than just "sex"...


For some people, a cigar is really just a cigar. There is no deeper meaning other than you are not sexually compatible. Such a partner may care very deeply about your unmet needs, but is incapable of being what you need them to be. They try, they fail repeatedly, and they feel bad about it. The "refusal" isn't a choice, it is a reality. 

That does not make them a bad person nor an uncaring partner. Nor even, necessarily, a bad spouse - if you can adjust appropriately.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> See, now this is where I don't understand why she couldn't get her needs for having her brains ****ed out met with her husband...there was something missing for her that was triggered by the chatroom guy, that I wonder why she didn't talk to her husband about it. I mean, I know it's not really as simple as that in alot of cases, but MY first move would be to find out what I felt like I needed (excitement, variety, more attention, etc), and try to have that met with my partner.
> 
> It couldn't have been that great for her if she never wanted to do it again...
> 
> Did her marriage survive...?


As far as I know, they reconciled. She did it because she got into it with Florida man online for months and didn't realize she was falling into an emotional affair. By the time she decided she was going to Florida for her defilement, she had already been hiding something from her husband for a very long time. She didn't know about what she was getting into and didn't defend against it. She didn't have healthy boundaries because she didn't believe she needed them.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Parallax857 said:


> If the sex isn't good, it's usually about much more than sex. Sex is for most folks a kind of canary in the coal mine. It's the first thing that goes when communication breaks down and resentments build up. Most of the women offering themselves, I suggest, are looking for more than sex. You may have a look or a persona onto which they project their fantasy of having their needs met. This may cause you to get more opportunities than the average guy. But it's not just about the sex itself.


I understand that You and @LisaDiane believe this and what she wrote. 

And no Diane I am not going to tell there husbands. Not all of them are married, anyway.

These things happen. 

But, yeah sometime the relationship is bad and the sex is lacking. This is a true statement. 

However, come to find out, there are a lot of men that just have no idea what they are doing or they have some type of hang up. 

What are the percentages, I have no idea? I just know that both happen, and I know what I have experience and seen. My guess it that it may be 50/50 but who really knows. 

But to think that the sex sucks because the relationship is bad and if it is good then the sex is good, yeah that is not really the case all of the time. 

Wouldn't it be great to have actual statics about these things. Impossible to get because no one would be honest... But interesting...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

badsanta said:


> There are some psychologists that have the philosophy that sex actually should be difficult in marriage. At some point in a marriage sex becomes more about if you are able to love and accept yourself while in the sexual presence of your spouse. THAT is a very difficult thing for people to do. It can be easier to distract yourself from that hot mess (of one's low self confidence) and just go find someone else to f*** as opposed to allowing a spouse to truly see you and know you.
> 
> Everyone has two personas. First is the person they strive to be (better), and second is the person they actually are (imperfect). Too many people choose to try and make love in marriage as the first persona and never get around to learning how to love and accept the second. In other words everything sex-wise is often based on enabling each other to believe the lie that they will become a better person.


I am sorry, what does this even mean, I am really asking this question. 

When you love someone, you love them. For me, if I love a woman, I love her, I want to be intimate and sexual with her.

Your statements sound like the author thinks that everyone hides their true self from their spouse. 

If that is true, why even be married? That would not work for me. 

My F says that she loves how I make her feel comfortable about sex, and about herself. I still don't understand what I do to accomplish that???? 

Why would I want her to be uncomfortable, why would I not want to see the real her? Why would you allow yourself to project something unreal? 

Are there actually people that live like this? Why? 

I have a hard enough time being me, if I had to be two or three people, I would lose my mind...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> For some people, a cigar is really just a cigar. There is no deeper meaning other than you are not sexually compatible. Such a partner may care very deeply about your unmet needs, but is incapable of being what you need them to be. They try, they fail repeatedly, and they feel bad about it. The "refusal" isn't a choice, it is a reality.
> 
> That does not make them a bad person nor an uncaring partner. Nor even, necessarily, a bad spouse - if you can adjust appropriately.


I would bet that is RARE, though...and when you are talking about SEX, "incapable" (unless it's truly a physical limitation) doesn't exist, to MY way of thinking and wanting to be cared about at least. I've had first hand experience with this, as well, doing sexual things that aren't particularly enjoyable or comfortable for ME, but are exciting for my partner...so I GIVE that to him, from a place of being committed to meeting HIS needs. And I don't mean in a way of, "Oh fine, if you have to have that...", but from a place of, "ok, that's exciting to YOU, so I'm going to be happy that I'm giving you what excites you!"

For me, the refusal to do that shows a lack of real love and commitment...especially if there is an expectation that they aren't allowed to have their needs met with anyone else.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> I would bet that is RARE, though...and when you are talking about SEX, "incapable" (unless it's truly a physical limitation) doesn't exist, to MY way of thinking and wanting to be cared about at least. I've had first hand experience with this, as well, doing sexual things that aren't particularly enjoyable or comfortable for ME, but are exciting for my partner...so I GIVE that to him, from a place of being committed to meeting HIS needs. And I don't mean in a way of, "Oh fine, if you have to have that...", but from a place of, "ok, that's exciting to YOU, so I'm going to be happy that I'm giving you what excites you!"
> 
> For me, the refusal to do that shows a lack of real love and commitment...especially if there is an expectation that they aren't allowed to have their needs met with anyone else.


I have heard you write about how you believe this before. I think it is so great that you do this. I feel the same way as well but I don't hear as many women say this out loud. 

On the other hand, I have had women tell me horror stories about husbands or BF's that really did not have a clue about how to have sex and please a woman. I did not believe it at first, because, let's face it, it really is not rocket science. 

But they swear that is the case out there in the wild, and some of these woman married them anyhow, and then wondered why they were not happy with their sex lives.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

badsanta said:


> There are some psychologists that have the philosophy that sex actually should be difficult in marriage. At some point in a marriage sex becomes more about if you are able to love and accept yourself while in the sexual presence of your spouse. THAT is a very difficult thing for people to do. It can be easier to distract yourself from that hot mess (of one's low self confidence) and just go find someone else to f*** as opposed to allowing a spouse to truly see you and know you.
> 
> Everyone has two personas. First is the person they strive to be (better), and second is the person they actually are (imperfect). Too many people choose to try and make love in marriage as the first persona and never get around to learning how to love and accept the second. In other words everything sex-wise is often based on enabling each other to believe the lie that they will become a better person.


This notion that sex should be difficult is not something I'm familiar with. I'm curious though. Is there a philosophy I could google or a book that spells it out? I find that healthy marriage itself is a process of self discovery, learning and growth. A process of discovering our own wounds and triggers and sharing them in a vulnerable way with our partner, which in turn can lead to empathy and understanding.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> There are some psychologists that have the philosophy that sex actually should be difficult in marriage. At some point in a marriage sex becomes more about if you are able to love and accept yourself while in the sexual presence of your spouse. THAT is a very difficult thing for people to do. It can be easier to distract yourself from that hot mess (of one's low self confidence) and just go find someone else to f*** as opposed to allowing a spouse to truly see you and know you.
> 
> Everyone has two personas. First is the person they strive to be (better), and second is the person they actually are (imperfect). Too many people choose to try and make love in marriage as the first persona and never get around to learning how to love and accept the second. In other words everything sex-wise is often based on enabling each other to believe the lie that they will become a better person.


Well, aren't YOU just a bastion of brilliance today!!! This is another thing that has really captured my interest on this topic!!

I wonder how this could work in most marriages, though, because I have yet to see any marriage where both partners were equally committed to meeting the other's needs, and being a safe partner for the other to be truly seen and known...
THIS would be my goal, my ultimate happy marriage - fully sexually open, seen, known, and also then still wanted and accepted.

Could YOU do that for your partner...? Or be that way with them??


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> I am sorry, what does this even mean, I am really asking this question.
> 
> When you love someone, you love them. For me, if I love a woman, I love her, I want to be intimate and sexual with her.
> 
> ...


Young people are taught that they should dream big and that they can be anyone they want. Most embrace the dream of being sexually attractive, famous, and wealthy. Most hold onto the idea and just try to fake it until you make it. 

Having said that most people clearly see and know their spouse for the person they truly are. They love the real person. The spouse never learns to love themselves and chooses instead to try and hold onto the dream amidst unrelenting reality of having gained weight, the effects of aging, financial difficulties, and a family crisis or two. As a married couple holds onto this dream, some will enable the idea of still trying to fake it until they make it together.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> I understand that You and @LisaDiane believe this and what she wrote.
> 
> And no Diane I am not going to tell there husbands. Not all of them are married, anyway.
> 
> ...


Clearly there are many people with sexual hangups. To one degree or another that's true of all of us. I don't think that alone tells the story. I've had deeply intimate relationships with beautiful intimate sex that was very outwardly plain vanilla. I've had wild, swing-from-the-chandelier type sex that took me to places I didn't know existed without emotional intimacy. For me, the emotionally intimate sex was way better than the "giving her 17 orgasms until she couldn't breathe" sex. 

In other words, I don't think the quality of sex is about the sex itself, about the performance. I was once in a relationship with a woman who had chronic pain that sometimes prevented her from being sexual. She would hold me while I masturbated. It was amazing for both of us. There are many ways to make sex wonderful. It doesn't require any particular act. It doesn't even require orgasm.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Parallax857 said:


> This notion that sex should be difficult is not something I'm familiar with. I'm curious though. Is there a philosophy I could google or a book that spells it out? I find that healthy marriage itself is a process of self discovery, learning and growth. A process of discovering our own wounds and triggers and sharing them in a vulnerable way with our partner, which in turn can lead to empathy and understanding.


If you find it, I would like to read it. I am just telling you what women have told me. I don't get it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> I have heard you write about how you believe this before. I think it is so great that you do this. I feel the same way as well but I don't hear as many women say this out loud.
> 
> On the other hand, I have had women tell me horror stories about husbands or BF's that really did not have a clue about how to have sex and please a woman. I did not believe it at first, because, let's face it, it really is not rocket science.
> 
> But they swear that is the case out there in the wild, and some of these woman married them anyhow, and then wondered why they were not happy with their sex lives.


I have a close friend that I had to have a big brother talk about sex to.

His wife couldn't stand having sex with him. After a few basic tips, she couldn't get enough and started initiating as much as him.

It's funny too because the dude is hung like a horse!😉


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Well, aren't YOU just a bastion of brilliance today!!! This is another thing that has really captured my interest on this topic!!
> 
> I wonder how this could work in most marriages, though, because I have yet to see any marriage where both partners were equally committed to meeting the other's needs, and being a safe partner for the other to be truly seen and known...
> THIS would be my goal, my ultimate happy marriage - fully sexually open, seen, known, and also then still wanted and accepted.
> ...


I'm saddened to see that you've become cynical about relationship and marriage. I think relationship and marriage can be challenging but also very rewarding. In the course of my life (I'm 57), I've had two particularly special relationships. One was when I was young and my partner was too. It was idealistic and very sweet. Neither of us knew much of anything but we were idealistic so we had a capacity to surrender to love. It was beautiful for a while but we lacked the knowledge and wisdom to care for, guard and preserve it. So it eventually ended. We had maybe two or three beautiful years in a five year relationship. 

The other one is my marriage. For me it's my third. I had to learn the hard way. But I can honestly say we're closer today than we were ten years, two months and eight days ago when we first met. There have been frictions and challenges. It's not always been easy. We go through narrow spaces but we keep emerging into ever more open and loving spaces. Our sex isn't perfect. At 57, I have trouble completing. She has trouble climaxing more than once. So she'll typically finish well before me, though not always. She'll often try to keep going in one form or another but, once she's done, I don't really want to keep going. So we stop. But I'm fine with that. The love between us is strong and that's what really matters. The rest is just silliness. 

At this point in my journey, I know I don't have forever. I see every day as a jewel and I don't want to waste even a moment. So we're either learning, growing and giving birth to yet greater intimacy or we're enjoying what we've already got.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BluesPower said:


> I have heard you write about how you believe this before. I think it is so great that you do this. I feel the same way as well but I don't hear as many women say this out loud.
> 
> On the other hand, I have had women tell me horror stories about husbands or BF's that really did not have a clue about how to have sex and please a woman. I did not believe it at first, because, let's face it, it really is not rocket science.
> 
> But they swear that is the case out there in the wild, and some of these woman married them anyhow, and then wondered why they were not happy with their sex lives.


I actually think that is an important way to approach ALL of our partner's needs, sexual and non-sexual - THAT is REAL love and commitment to me. And it really does breed happiness!!! The only problem is that it should be reciprocated, not just taken advantage of...and when it's NOT, then it can seem like a BAD way to be...Lol!
But if BOTH partners care about eachother in this way, it could almost guarantee consistent happiness...!!!

I guess I just don't understand why it's so hard to "please" the other person...like, ok, maybe at first, but isn't that what monogamy is supposed to be about - LEARNING about how to please the other person sexually (and other ways), and being happy to do so...??


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Parallax857 said:


> I'm saddened to see that you've become cynical about relationship and marriage. I think relationship and marriage can be challenging but also very rewarding. In the course of my life (I'm 57), I've had two particularly special relationships. One was when I was young and my partner was too. It was idealistic and very sweet. Neither of us knew much of anything but we were idealistic so we had a capacity to surrender to love. It was beautiful for a while but we lacked the knowledge and wisdom to care for, guard and preserve it. So it eventually ended. We had maybe two or three beautiful years in a five year relationship.
> 
> The other one is my marriage. For me it's my third. I had to learn the hard way. But I can honestly say we're closer today than we were ten years, two months and eight days ago when we first met. There have been frictions and challenges. It's not always been easy. We go through narrow spaces but we keep emerging into ever more open and loving spaces. Our sex isn't perfect. At 57, I have trouble completing. She has trouble climaxing more than once. So she'll typically finish well before me, though not always. She'll often try to keep going in one form or another but, once she's done, I don't really want to keep going. So we stop. But I'm fine with that. The love between us is strong and that's what really matters. The rest is just silliness.
> 
> At this point in my journey, I know I don't have forever. I see every day as a jewel and I don't want to waste even a moment. So we're either learning, growing and giving birth to yet greater intimacy or we're enjoying what we've already got.


Don't be sad...I'm not really cynical...I'm just relaying what I've seen in an interested sort of way. I don't feel BAD about it, just kind of practical. There ARE some people who care deeply for eachother, especially on this site!! And I'm happy for you that you have found success and happiness with your relationship!

I've just seen, in MY life, with the people around ME, that most people are ultimately SELF-CENTERED...and that becomes a block to true love and intimacy like you are experiencing with your partner. I do feel bad about those people, because they are mostly unhappy in their self-centeredness - which is the opposite of what they are trying to accomplish by being that way!! I've found the greatest happiness comes from caring deeply and fully about other people, and giving what I can to the people who I care about who are depending on me to do so.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I have a close friend that I had to have a big brother talk about sex to.
> 
> His wife couldn't stand having sex with him. After a few basic tips, she couldn't get enough and started initiating as much as him.
> 
> It's funny too because the dude is hung like a horse!😉


OMG...I'm laughing to death over here at your comment!!!!

And ok, at the risk of turning this into yet another penis-size thread...for MOST people (especially women) the BEST sex happens BEFORE the penis gets anywhere near the vagina...so "hung like a horse" is mostly irrelevant...Lol!!!

And I'm NOT going to even ask HOW you know this about him... ;-D


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BluesPower said:


> I am sorry, what does this even mean, I am really asking this question.
> 
> When you love someone, you love them. For me, if I love a woman, I love her, I want to be intimate and sexual with her.
> 
> ...


I think what he means by "difficult" is really "challenging" -- sex with your spouse should continue to be challenging to your sense of openness and being real with another person...in order to continue to develop intimacy between you both.
That's how I take it, anyway.

I can be honest here and admit that there are STILL things that I have fears about sexually, things I want to hide...definitely. These things can be old (from before I remarried) or recently developed - there are things that bother me one day, but not the next. I'm sure there are greater and lesser degrees for each person. And those fears should be CHALLENGED with our partners.

I LOVE that concept!!!


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Don't be sad...I'm not really cynical...I'm just relaying what I've seen in an interested sort of way. I don't feel BAD about it, just kind of practical. There ARE some people who care deeply for eachother, especially on this site!! And I'm happy for you that you have found success and happiness with your relationship!
> 
> I've just seen, in MY life, with the people around ME, that most people are ultimately SELF-CENTERED...and that becomes a block to true love and intimacy like you are experiencing with your partner. I do feel bad about those people, because they are mostly unhappy in their self-centeredness - which is the opposite of what they are trying to accomplish by being that way!! I've found the greatest happiness comes from caring deeply and fully about other people, and giving what I can to the people who I care about who are depending on me to do so.


You and I really speak the same language, Lisa. That's been my experience too. Took me a long time to figure it out. Had to get past the illusion that other things -- money, "success", sex, etc. -- would give me something of value. They do to a limited degree. A basic amount of money is important so one can care for oneself and one's loved ones. Beyond that, I find it's the booby prize people settle for when they've given up on a real experience of being alive. Aliveness comes from living in an open heart. Not that I live there all the time. It's a place I find from time to time. 

I agree with you that there are few healthy marriages and a lot of confused and unhappy people. Doing what they thing will make them happy and not understanding why it's not working. But always thinking it's around the next bend if they just do it more/better/different.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> I guess I just don't understand why it's so hard to "please" the other person...like, ok, maybe at first, but isn't that what monogamy is supposed to be about - LEARNING about how to please the other person sexually (and other ways), and being happy to do so...??


I thought just like you. I figured that every had the same amount of sex a I was having and for the most part it was always pretty go. 

This is not the case. And I have just learned that over the last few years. 

At first I really did not believe some of the woman I was with, but I came to believe it later. 

My Fiancé, was talking to me about her Ex husbands, and I said, look it could not have been that bad... 

She pulled over one of our friends that had dated him before they married, and she said, what was so and so like in bed??? 

Friend said, "absolutely the worst ever." 

Turn out this is common for people. Who knew????


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BluesPower said:


> I thought just like you. I figured that every had the same amount of sex a I was having and for the most part it was always pretty go.
> 
> This is not the case. And I have just learned that over the last few years.
> 
> ...


Did anyone ever try to teach him or tell him what they wanted and liked...?? Because if they DID, and he still didn't care or do anything to change things up, then I would have to agree. 

But if the poor guy was with women who were faking pleasure and orgasms, or just not telling him what they liked better than what he was doing, well, that's not really HIS fault...!!!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Parallax857 said:


> You and I really speak the same language, Lisa. That's been my experience too. Took me a long time to figure it out. Had to get past the illusion that other things -- money, "success", sex, etc. -- would give me something of value. They do to a limited degree. A basic amount of money is important so one can care for oneself and one's loved ones. Beyond that, I find it's the booby prize people settle for when they've given up on a real experience of being alive. Aliveness comes from living in an open heart. Not that I live there all the time. It's a place I find from time to time.
> 
> I agree with you that there are few healthy marriages and a lot of confused and unhappy people. Doing what they thing will make them happy and not understanding why it's not working. But always thinking it's around the next bend if they just do it more/better/different.


That's pretty neat, because I agree completely about the money and "stuff" not bringing happiness. In fact, there is still a part of me that thinks it would be fun to leave everything behind and live in my car at the ocean...Lol!!
From MY experience, more money and stuff brings more headaches and responsibility...I mean, I know we all need SOME money and stuff, but it's just not that important to me. 

I think you have a great perspective about life and relationships!!


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> That's pretty neat, because I agree completely about the money and "stuff" not bringing happiness. In fact, there is still a part of me that thinks it would be fun to leave everything behind and live in my car at the ocean...Lol!!
> From MY experience, more money and stuff brings more headaches and responsibility...I mean, I know we all need SOME money and stuff, but it's just not that important to me.
> 
> I think you have a great perspective about life and relationships!!


And I, you.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Did anyone ever try to teach him or tell him what they wanted and liked...?? Because if they DID, and he still didn't care or do anything to change things up, then I would have to agree.
> 
> But if the poor guy was with women who were faking pleasure and orgasms, or just not telling him what they liked better than what he was doing, well, that's not really HIS fault...!!!


I asked that question of several woman, including my Fiancé. They said that 1) they did not want to teach a grown man how to ****, or 2) they did not feel secure enough in THEIR knowledge/ability to teach (Confidence/ability) to try that, so they just let it go. 

While I don't agree with that as being right, LOTS of woman feel that way. They want a man that is confident in bed, that knows what he is doing and they just get to enjoys themselves. 

I guess I get it... Honestly, if a woman is into the situation and knows how to have an orgasm, I can take care of the rest. Any hints about what she likes are only gravy, the basics are kind of the same. 

But that is how my F is. She is submissive overall, and she likes me to do what I like doing while she reaps O's. She likes that I "tell her what to do" or what position to get into... all of that. 

Lots of women are kind of like that, not all but many. 

So, I am thinking after a certain age, many woman are not interested in teaching...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> There are some psychologists that have the philosophy that sex actually should be difficult in marriage. At some point in a marriage sex becomes more about if you are able to love and accept yourself while in the sexual presence of your spouse. THAT is a very difficult thing for people to do. It can be easier to distract yourself from that hot mess (of one's low self confidence) and just go find someone else to f*** as opposed to allowing a spouse to truly see you and know you.
> 
> Everyone has two personas. First is the person they strive to be (better), and second is the person they actually are (imperfect). Too many people choose to try and make love in marriage as the first persona and never get around to learning how to love and accept the second. In other words everything sex-wise is often based on enabling each other to believe the lie that they will become a better person.


Hey...!!! Is this philosophy from the book you mentioned in another thread - "Sexual Intelligence"...??


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BluesPower said:


> I asked that question of several woman, including my Fiancé. They said that 1) they did not want to teach a grown man how to ****, or 2) they did not feel secure enough in THEIR knowledge/ability to teach (Confidence/ability) to try that, so they just let it go.
> 
> While I don't agree with that as being right, LOTS of woman feel that way. They want a man that is confident in bed, that knows what he is doing and they just get to enjoys themselves.
> 
> ...


Ok...well, I'm actually VERY submissive (even shy), but this still seems grossly unfair to any man who is with a woman like that. I would have to say, those men cannot really be called "the worst in bed" simply because they couldn't read minds! I don't like having to spell-out what I want either - it makes me feel self-conscious and demanding...Lol!! - but then I wouldn't blame HIM for that...that's not fair...!

I've had sex with two men in my life, and they were VERY different in what they wanted to do and what felt good to them - in how they viewed what "good sex" was - and women are the same...each person has different feelings and desires, so there is no guarantee that what feels great to one woman (or person) will feel the same for another one.

I think the thing that makes someone "good" in bed is their ability to listen and care about how they are making their partner feel. And I have to say, if I was with a man who expected me to just do stuff to him without giving me some kind of guidance or direction about what he liked, I would be a nervous wreck and NOT enjoy the experience at all!! Lol!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Hey...!!! Is this philosophy from the book you mentioned in another thread - "Sexual Intelligence"...??


That philosophy would be in the books by David Schnarch. Either "Passionate Marriage" or "Intimacy & Desire" and I get confused between the two as I have read them simultaneously bouncing back and forth between one to the other. 

Those are great books. Devoted primarily to monogamy as he uses examples of affairs and open marriages to illustrate certain emotional challenges that some people struggle to overcome.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> That philosophy would be in the books by David Schnarch. Either "Passionate Marriage" or "Intimacy & Desire" and I get confused between the two as I have read them simultaneously bouncing back and forth between one to the other.
> 
> Those are great books. Devoted primarily to monogamy as he uses examples of affairs and open marriages to illustrate certain emotional challenges that some people struggle to overcome.


Ok, THANKS!!!


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

GoneDoggy said:


> Just finished reading Eric Anderson’s book The Monogamy Gap, in which he opines that monogamy is a “prison” and against human nature, derived from religious strictures.
> His basic argument is that cheating in marriage (primarily by men) is caused by a need for the excitement of other partners and new sexual experiences. He asserts that men want to be emotionally monogamous but “their body craves sex with other people”. Sort of a biologically driven addiction that requires great effort and willpower to overcome.
> In a nutshell: marital sex becomes boring and unfulfilling after a year or two and they need to have the ability (and permission) to act on physical desires. It appears he is primarily discussing quick flings... when the see someone they consider ‘hot’ and ‘sexy’, they should not be forced to deny themselves. And they still have wife and family to go home to for emotional intimacy, home etc. (IMO - having the excitement but still having someone cook, clean, and raise his children to come home to after wild, animal sex.)
> In interviews, he has agreed that while women cheat, their don’t have the overwhelming biological ‘need’ for frequent new sexual partners.
> ...


I agree with what he's saying 100%. However in my situation I only acted on it because after numerous discussions with my wife about how unhappy I was about our sex life and she agreed, she did nothing to change.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> I asked that question of several woman, including my Fiancé. They said that 1) they did not want to teach a grown man how to ****, or 2) they did not feel secure enough in THEIR knowledge/ability to teach (Confidence/ability) to try that, so they just let it go.
> 
> While I don't agree with that as being right, LOTS of woman feel that way. They want a man that is confident in bed, that knows what he is doing and they just get to enjoys themselves.
> 
> ...


My experience, which is limited to maybe 10 or so partners (if we're talking about intercourse), a few of whom I were one shot deals that I didn't learn much from, is that women are extremely different. I don't claim to be an expert. In my experience, some want to focus on pleasure. A subset of those women are multi-orgasmic and wanted to pursue the highest heights. But a good number of women focus more on connection than pleasure. Probably half of the women I've been with have been like that. They want pleasure too but it needs to grow out of connection; otherwise, they're not interested.

At one point in my life, I was really into performance. I'd gotten good at it and enjoyed taking women to orgasm, ideally more than once. I got off on their getting off. That's not where I started and it's not where I am now, but I spent probably a good ten years there (mid-30s to mid-40s), and I had partners who didn't want me to service them. They wanted me to look deeply into their eyes. Some would allow it but, looking back, I think they were almost doing it for me. Enjoying the ride but it wasn't, for them, the point.

Since I'm a sensitive guy, I probably attract women who are more likely to be sensitive too. My last long-term girlfriend never let me go down on her, not because she was afraid; she wasn't. She had no doubt had that experience many times. She was trying to elevate her sexual experience. She spoke of this openly. That she had her first partial sexual experience at 16, had intercourse for the first time at 18, and that it had always been an animal experience. She was wanting to explore the spiritual side of sex. As a result she wanted it to arise from love.

My wife and I actually elected to wait until we were married to have sex. That may sound crazy. At one time it would have sounded crazy to me. But she needed that. She had trauma and fear. She needed the safety of marriage in order to open and even then I had to be very patient. We're now married ten years and it's only in the last two of three she doesn't easily fall into places of fear. Even now that can happen, in which case we'll stop and I'll just hold her. And then she remembers it's me and we continue. It's actually really beautiful. Not super hot but very loving. I love it and wouldn't want her to be any other way. I'm done being a guy who rips a woman's clothes off from a state of desperate horniness. Not because there's anything wrong with that. It's no doubt in part because at 57 I no longer have the libido for it. But it's also because my desires and interests have changed. One might say I've seasoned. That old way of being looks violent to me now. I wouldn't want to be violent with a woman at this point in my journey. Not even if she wanted me to.


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