# Near the end of my rope...another sexless marriage thread



## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

Another husband here in a sexless marriage. We're both very physically fit. Kids are older now and in school all day. She only works part-time. (cant use those as excuses) She says she enjoys it when it does happen, just has no desire and could care less about it. For it to ever happen it HAS to be a big production that takes like a couple hours. But then there is never enough time - vicious circle. Had a big talk about it last spring. Of course things improved for a short time, then back to the old ways and not one time since. It's like we're roommates just putting on a show for the sake of family and the kids. Don't even sleep in the same room now - wouldnt change things if we did since she will not do it if the kids are in the house anyways (and its a pretty big house with locks on the door!). She's completely fine with it and not willing to change so as I see it, it's down to me having to live with it or separate. Am I missing any options? Is going without sex really worth breaking apart a family and losing a couple hundred grand? I dont want to cross the fence and learn that the grass ISNT greener after all. If yes, is it better to give an ultimatum first or just blind-side her and say that its time to go?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

UserName1 said:


> Another husband here in a sexless marriage. We're both very physically fit. Kids are older now and in school all day. She only works part-time. (cant use those as excuses) She says she enjoys it when it does happen, just has no desire and could care less about it. For it to ever happen it HAS to be a big production that takes like a couple hours. But then there is never enough time - vicious circle. Had a big talk about it last spring. Of course things improved for a short time, then back to the old ways and not one time since. It's like we're roommates just putting on a show for the sake of family and the kids. Don't even sleep in the same room now - wouldnt change things if we did since she will not do it if the kids are in the house anyways (and its a pretty big house with locks on the door!). She's completely fine with it and not willing to change so as I see it, it's down to me having to live with it or separate. Am I missing any options? Is going without sex really worth breaking apart a family and losing a couple hundred grand? I dont want to cross the fence and learn that the grass ISNT greener after all. If yes, is it better to give an ultimatum first or just blind-side her and say that its time to go?


Some times my friend the grass IS truly greener.

How are you going to lose a couple $100k? She's bringing that to the table?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

> Is going without sex really worth breaking apart a family and losing a couple hundred grand?


What is happiness worth? It's not just sex: it's love, affection, respect, companionship, ... and sex.

Divorce is expensive because it IS worth it most of the time.

Before you make that decision, there are some things you can try. Search this site for the "180" to change yourself, and perhaps your wife will become interested in you again. Perhaps.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

The grass is greener in my situation but that is not the story for everyone, only you can decide.

I ended my marriage because it was sexless but that is just the end of the story. The real story was that he would tell me he loved me but he never took the steps to fix his issues which led to us being sexless. So it wasn't the lack of sex, it was that I woke up one day and realised that my needs were not that important to him.

Going down the divorce path is one of the hardest things anyone will ever do but for me it was worth the heartache. 4 years down the track now, 2 years into my new relationship and I have never felt more loved and cherished. I have found the man that is right for me and our love life is beautiful. 

All the best to you, which ever path you choose.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Amplexor said:


> Any one that knows my story will recall that my wife and I were in a very bad place a few years back, hit bottom, damn near divorced but journeyed to a very long but successful recovery. We are very strong as a couple today, committed and loving.
> 
> However our sexual drives are still a mismatch. We deal with the problem better than we used to but had made little progress. I understand my wife is in menopause which has lowered her previously high-drive. With menopause has come an increase in weight lowering her self esteem. And her job is very stressful leaving her exhausted at the end of the day. I am very empathetic to her feelings on all three but there are two people in the marriage.
> 
> A few months ago we had "that talk" again and again it took a familiar path. Stress, weight, drive... With empathy and respect I told her I understood all those reasons but that quite frankly she has done nothing to try and address them and that I didn't see this ever improving much over where it was today. I told we were going to try a different path this time. "For the next 60 days, I want you to submit yourself to me when I want sexual intimacy." My wife is extremely strong willed and independent of soul. Her icie blues flashed for a moment then she took her stare off of me, thought about it and responded, "That's not an unreasonable request." Initially she found it a bit awkward ("knowing she had to") but we settled into a very good pattern. My wife does enjoy sex when we get started so she was not being "dutiful" during it. Keep in mind, I am in my mid 50s so I'm not swinging wood five times a day any more. 2 or 3 times a week is more than sufficient for me. It put us in a good rhythm that has continued on passed the initial period. She has also begun to work out regularly and watching her diet more closely. When we went though our R one of the things we did was rebuild the foundation of the relationship and two areas we became much more successful at then we had been previously were communication and empathy. Both had a strong part in helping us improve this area of the marriage.


I posted this in July 2012. To this day, we are still in a mode that rejection is very rare. After 20 plus years of marriage and a long drought in the bedroom, she finally came to understand that my desire for sex was an important part of my happiness in the marriage. Her previously high drive had died and I heard many of the same things you did. "I could live without it forever" Well, I can't. She is now and has been since this conversation an engaged and enthusiastic lover. The difference? I stated my requirements in the marriage. I stopped begging, bartering and moping about them.


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## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

treyvion said:


> How are you going to lose a couple $100k?  She's bringing that to the table?


Dower rights. Wife gets half of everything. We have over 500k of assets and no debt. Then there's child support...


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## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> The difference? I stated my requirements in the marriage. I stopped begging, bartering and moping about them.


I don't want to mistake what you are saying. You told her point-blank to give you sex whenever you want it or you might be leaving? And it worked? Wow.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

UserName1 said:


> I don't want to mistake what you are saying. You told her point-blank to give you sex whenever you want it or you might be leaving? And it worked? Wow.


I told her for 60-days I wanted her to submit to me. The 60-day period was to get us back into a pattern. It did.

I did not threaten to leave the marriage. The point was that if she did not fulfill my requirements in the marriage I would naturally become less inclined to meet hers. The danger being we could slip back into a very damaged relationship because of it. Give and take. It clicked with her.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> I told her for 60-days I wanted her to submit to me. The 60-day period was to get us back into a pattern. It did.
> 
> I did not threaten to leave the marriage. The point was that if she did not fulfill my requirements in the marriage I would naturally become less inclined to meet hers. The danger being we could slip back into a very damaged relationship because of it. Give and take. It clicked with her.


OP the consequence needs to be severe enough to change her thinking and behavior, with out the fear of a real consequence there will be no change. You have done all you can do, talking and asking, now it is time to do what is necessary. You have been told about the 180. Feel free to start it and let her know you are doing this for you, not for her. If she turns around great, if not you will be used to not needing her in your life and at that point you have truly done it all. Yes giving up the money is worth it. You are giving her half already and getting no sex in return, might as well just give it to her and send her on the way. Follow my logic here. Money cannot be traded for happiness. If it could then the 98% of people that are middle income or less would all be miserable and the rich would all be happy. This is not the case for a reason. You are not happy and I guarantee you that if a day comes when you are again, the money lost will be the last thing on your mind.


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## soulsearch (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: Re: Near the end of my rope...another sexless marriage thread*



Amplexor said:


> I posted this in July 2012. To this day, we are still in a mode that rejection is very rare. After 20 plus years of marriage and a long drought in the bedroom, she finally came to understand that my desire for sex was an important part of my happiness in the marriage. Her previously high drive had died and I heard many of the same things you did. "I could live without it forever" Well, I can't. She is now and has been since this conversation an engaged and enthusiastic lover. The difference? I stated my requirements in the marriage. I stopped begging, bartering and moping about them.


did her not wanting it bother you? we are kind of in that place... if I say I need it, she will usually give in, but I've been having issues with that. if we get started, and she isn't showing much desire, I go limp and can't get it back. she freaks out, of course.

now we are in this weird place where neither of us want sex, because I'm afraid she's not going to be into it, leading to my problem, and she never initiates anyway, and thinks my going limp has to do with not being attracted to her. (we have talked about it, and I told her why)

honestly, I'd just rather go solo at this point.


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## where_are_we (May 24, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> I told her for 60-days I wanted her to submit to me. .


Oh. My. God.


I wish my husband would say to me, "I want you to submit to me!" 

I've been trying to submit to him, but he won't take the control. LOL

What's a girl to do.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

where_are_we said:


> Oh. My. God.
> 
> 
> I wish my husband would say to me, "I want you to submit to me!"
> ...


Get a new man (half joking). I think that a man that is not sexually confident is far less likely to change than a woman that lacks confidence/desire. It is a whole other discussion and don't want to side track this one.


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## Cyclist (Aug 22, 2012)

UserName1 said:


> Dower rights. Wife gets half of everything. We have over 500k of assets and no debt. Then there's child support...


I pay 3k a month in child support and figure that is the price for my happiness. Would not have it any other way. Even though my current relationship is not perfect there have been some fantastic times and if it does not work out I am a phone call to a moving company away from being single. no worries.

Divorce sucks, it really does. But if done correctly you can come out much stronger on the other end. If you go that route just give yourself a couple of years to recover and during that time have fun for yourself and enjoy your kids.


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## Cyclist (Aug 22, 2012)

soulsearch said:


> did her not wanting it bother you? we are kind of in that place... if I say I need it, she will usually give in, but I've been having issues with that. if we get started, and she isn't showing much desire, I go limp and can't get it back. she freaks out, of course.
> 
> now we are in this weird place where neither of us want sex, because I'm afraid she's not going to be into it, leading to my problem, and she never initiates anyway, and thinks my going limp has to do with not being attracted to her. (we have talked about it, and I told her why)
> 
> honestly, I'd just rather go solo at this point.


Oh man I have been there.....

MY GOD why cant they understand !!!!!!

If I could just come up with a solution, a pill, a 60 minute session, a video, SOMETHING that would let a wife know what we are truly thinking and what we truly need. It would be bigger than viagra and on every shelf like p90x


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

How old are you both?

Do you love her?

If yes, take Amplexor's example. Ramp up the pressure to have sex. Tell her: "We need to make love much more often for the sake of our marriage, for us, because we are are in danger of losing our connection, our life together."

Make your insistent pitch very short and entirely about "we", not about you. Don't argue or debate. Give this report on the state of your lives in a compassionate but serious manner.

You can ask her: "What about our relationship could be better? What can we do better? What kind of romance can we create? What sources of resentment can we nip in the bud?"


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Good advice so far. I hate to bring this up but I have seen it a lot. 
If there are no health problems And you are generally a good husband, Then is it possible she is having an affair? 
Not trying to cause you more problems, Women desire sex and affection as well.
If there is nothing wrong medically a psychologically, Your average healthy woman has a pretty good libido.
Even LD women desire sex, just at a slower build up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

UserName1 said:


> Don't even sleep in the same room now - wouldnt change things if we did since she will not do it if the kids are in the house anyways (and its a pretty big house with locks on the door!).



This part is odd. If she won't do it with kids in the house, what other time would be open to you? I assume you are at work when kids are in school, so weekdays wouldn't work. 

And what is the reason you sleep in separate rooms? That can't help the situation.


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## soulsearch (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: Re: Near the end of my rope...another sexless marriage thread*



Cyclist said:


> Oh man I have been there.....
> 
> MY GOD why cant they understand !!!!!!
> 
> If I could just come up with a solution, a pill, a 60 minute session, a video, SOMETHING that would let a wife know what we are truly thinking and what we truly need. It would be bigger than viagra and on every shelf like p90x


I hate top hijack, maybe I should have just pm messaged you, but if you don't mind, how did you get OUT of that trap?


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

How great to read Amplexors post and his 60 days! Clearly it worked for them. Clearly whatever 'damage' had been done was repairable and they both wanted to repair it.

Other posters have talked first hand about divorce...yes it is expensive and yes it is traumatic but the end result is 'your' happiness. No one likes divorce.

But sometimes the damage done over the years is too much.

My wife and I have been together 20 years. I could count the number of times we have tongue kissed on one hand - she hates it. Oral hygene isnt an issue. She has never kissed my c*ck or balls...she thinks bj's (she has never given one to any one) are disgusting.
Her attitude towards sex is 'why should I do something I dont want to do?'

Of course when I was younger I wanted sex 'all' the time...I was constantly rejected. 
She comes from a place that sex in marriage should only happen if both parties want it.
So If I want it and she doesnt, tough. If she wants it, I have to grab the chance.

Over the years so much damage has been done that that I am actually no longer interested in having any form of sexual relationship with her and neither am I even interested in trying to repair any damage.

As another poster said, I'd rather go solo!


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## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

Thanks for all the thoughts so far! I should respond to a this comment and a couple others.



ConanHub said:


> Then is it possible she is having an affair?
> If there is nothing wrong medically a psychologically, Your average healthy woman has a pretty good libido.
> Even LD women desire sex, just at a slower build up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I highly doubt it. I work from the home so I know who comes/goes. (This also responds to person wondering when else sex could happen - almost anytime M-F 7a-3p!) When she goes to her classes (she teaches fitness classes part-time) I know where, how long, and I see the paychecks. Neither of us ever go out at night with friends (dont drink, etc) so its virtually impossible. For the record, surprisingly, I have never ever cheated either. She claims to have never 'gone solo' and seemed sincere when she said it. I've mentioned seeing a doctor about possible medication - she laughed it off and said no way.

Separate room issue: Started a long time ago. She is the lightest sleeper the world has ever known. If she doesnt get her 8+ hours she is a real bear. She is not a cuddler - she wants her own space (and she's real close to getting lots of it!) Also, I get up at 4:30am to hit the gym before work. The path of least resistance was to let her sleep while I turned the recliner into my own bed. I'm so used to it now I cant even sleep flat on a bed. When we travel its hell - I can hardly walk the next day I hurt so bad. Weird, I know.

Yes, we're both in great shape. She teaches 10-15 fitness classes a week, is 5'3", 110lb. Can still fit in clothes from high school (she's 44, I'm 43). I work out 5-6x/week, run races/triathlons, etc. So its not a weight or other physical issue. Trust me, I've tried to think of everything.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

soulsearch said:


> did her not wanting it bother you?


No, I have been professional salesman for over 30 years. I process rejection completely different than most.




soulsearch said:


> we are kind of in that place... if I say I need it, she will usually give in, but I've been having issues with that. if we get started, and she isn't showing much desire, I go limp and can't get it back. she freaks out, of course.


See the next two quotes below.



where_are_we said:


> Oh. My. God.
> 
> 
> I wish my husband would say to me, "I want you to submit to me!"
> ...


Husbands read WAW's response. One of the most important things I've learned is understanding the difference between when my wife wants to be made love to and when she needs to be ****ed!



Holland said:


> Get a new man (half joking). I think that a man that is not sexually confident is far less likely to change than a woman that lacks confidence/desire. It is a whole other discussion and don't want to side track this one.


Holland, it should be side tracked because it is key to the problem. In general, women want their lovers to be confident in the bedroom. If he is apprehensive because his partner doesn't respond immediately or he is afraid of failure, it all falls apart and both leave the moment disappointed and a little beaten down. Slowly that will erode away at the desire until they get where UN1 and SS are. Something as important as sex is no longer worth the effort. After my conversation with my wife, the sex was somewhat passionless on her part. Fine, I expected that and it didn't bother me and I went at it with my own passion and lust. Had I not, we would be taking steps backward. Within a couple of weeks she was fully engaged again.




UserName1 said:


> Thanks for all the thoughts so far! I should respond to a this comment and a couple others.
> 
> Separate room issue: Started a long time ago. She is the lightest sleeper the world has ever known. If she doesnt get her 8+ hours she is a real bear. She is not a cuddler - she wants her own space (and she's real close to getting lots of it!) Also, I get up at 4:30am to hit the gym before work. The path of least resistance was to let her sleep while I turned the recliner into my own bed. I'm so used to it now I cant even sleep flat on a bed. When we travel its hell - I can hardly walk the next day I hurt so bad. Weird, I know.


As long as you are not in the bed this will never improve. My wife is a light sleeper, I am a restless one. We make it work. You are rationalizing (back ache) her rejection of you. The marital bed needs to be slept in together and you have abdicated your side. Talk with your wife and explain that sleeping together is important to you and you are coming back. If need be, start with weekends where a little less sleep doesn't interfere with work. If she's grumpy, get used to it for a while. This won't get better without you stating your wants and sticking to them.


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## soulsearch (Aug 2, 2013)

thank you for the response sir. I'm processing it, lol. I have to say, I'm sure it's not a confidence issue, more of a loss of desire to have sex with someone who could care less.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

soulsearch said:


> thank you for the response sir. I'm processing it, lol. I have to say, I'm sure it's not a confidence issue, more of a loss of desire to have sex with someone who could care less.


That will kill your flame. Nothing better to go through a situation like this, and to realize it's isolated to the situation, unless you take those feelings and doubts with you into a new situation. As long as you don't open your mouth, the new situation can be whatever you want it to be. The flame restored, huge sexual mojo returns.


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## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> As long as you are not in the bed this will never improve. My wife is a light sleeper, I am a restless one. We make it work. You are rationalizing (back ache) her rejection of you. The marital bed needs to be slept in together and you have abdicated your side. Talk with your wife and explain that sleeping together is important to you and you are coming back. If need be, start with weekends where a little less sleep doesn't interfere with work. If she's grumpy, get used to it for a while. This won't get better without you stating your wants and sticking to them.


I still dont understand your point. I'm not rationalizing...I'm not in the bed because of her, not because of me making excuses. As I stated, even if I'm there sex is NOT going to happen. At least not for 8+yrs when the last of the kids are gone. So what's the plus side of moving back? If her stance on when-and-where doesnt change then as I see it where I sleep wont matter.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

I agree with you. Sleeping together is not a must but the big picture is that there has to be closeness and nonsexual intimacy in your relationship to have a thriving sex life. Sleeping together helps in that regard but if that will just bring more trouble then don't do it.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

I would not phrase it as an ultimatum and I do not think money is more important than happiness. 

I think that Amp's story is inspirational, but your only real leverage is being willing to walk out. Anything short of that and she might think she can have whatever she wants. It is hard for people to change and they often need a strong motivation to do that. 

Could be that she thinks she will get along fine without you. If this is a mostly sexless marriage than the grass probably is greener on the other side of the fence.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> I would not phrase it as an ultimatum and I do not think money is more important than happiness.
> 
> I think that Amp's story is inspirational, but your only real leverage is being willing to walk out. Anything short of that and she might think she can have whatever she wants. It is hard for people to change and they often need a strong motivation to do that.
> 
> Could be that she thinks she will get along fine without you. If this is a mostly sexless marriage than the grass probably is greener on the other side of the fence.


Sometimes the grass truly is greener!


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

From someone who has been dealing with this (an tried most everything) let me give you a Word of Advice...

Its a *NO WIN* Scenario.

Don't think for a moment there is a Solution, the ONLY hope is that your spouse comes around on their own or you decide to leave.

Think about it do you really want to coerce your own wife to have sex with you...NO

What you want is to be desired, at face value sexually and fully enjoy each other.

So while I applaud those who gave ultimatums and are getting some, how do you know it isn't just your spouse giving in to your DEMANDS? They could lie to your face and say they love it (sex with you) but deep down you know that they went off sex with you for a reason....you may have coerced them back but is it real? Does you spouse WANT sex with you or are they just doing what is needed to make you shut up?

That is the problem with any solution that involves pressuring your spouse.

There is a huge problem when a basic thing like sex is compromised in a marriage. There should be no need for convincing at all when you think about it..its not like this is new.

My advice is to come to grips with the NO WIN scenario and do your best to find a way to cope with it.

I live by the notion if she doesn't want sex with me then that's the way it is and she can deal with that decision/view of hers and she can deal with the consequences of removing a basic necessity from our lives....selfishly. 

Quit banging your head against the wall...you are not alone.
Try to see the positives of your marriage there are many that are clouded by sexlessness perhaps one day things will change...stranger things have happened.

That is my 2 cents.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The half of everything bit comes into play with a divorce. There are other options. Legally separate, clearly telling her why. Give her the bare minimum support legally required. She's getting something out of this marriage and my guess is that thing folds and fits in a wallet. She'd be required to get full-time employment, lower her standard of living, or sue for divorce. If she has a brain, she'll figure out that 100% of something beats 20% or 50% and the world isn't chock full of men just dying to take on a sexless woman with a bunch of kids. The most logical solution for her would be to remember where she put her libido.


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## soulsearch (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: Re: Near the end of my rope...another sexless marriage thread*



treyvion said:


> That will kill your flame. Nothing better to go through a situation like this, and to realize it's isolated to the situation, unless you take those feelings and doubts with you into a new situation. As long as you don't open your mouth, the new situation can be whatever you want it to be. The flame restored, huge sexual mojo returns.


yeah.... it's been tempting to cheat and see how much better it could be. damn my parents for raising me with morals! (and I say that only partly tongue in cheek)


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

soulsearch said:


> yeah.... it's been tempting to cheat and see how much better it could be. damn my parents for raising me with morals! (and I say that only partly tongue in cheek)


Options are to leave or cheat. You can also leverage the wife in ways to allow her to see a fullfilled sexlife is a better thing for the both of you.

Let me just say this.

If she has been starving and neglecting you. Taking you for granted... When you cheat, you will start to wonder why you go back in there with her. You've given her plenty of chances, for something that is given so freely and easily in the world.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Trying2figureitout said:


> From someone who has been dealing with this (an tried most everything) let me give you a Word of Advice...
> 
> Its a *NO WIN* Scenario.
> 
> ...


So he should just put his tail between his legs, wonder off to the bathroom and masturbate? There was no _coercion_ in my example above. There was no "**** me or I'll walk!" ultimatum. I simply stated my needs in the marriage and sex was one of them. If my needs weren't understood and respected then I would be less inclined respect hers. We went down that path years ago and it nearly tanked the marriage. Why is it that when a wife goes off sex her husband is expected to just take it with a grain of salt. **** that noise. I tried that for years and it just built resentment to the point I didn't care if I stayed married to her or not.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

I agree Amp, just that more often than not it will not result in your outcome. I would have to guess that even if you did not say it directly, your wife had to have the feeling that the marriage was on the line. 

For most of us, if we threatened to simply withdraw emotionally the wives would say fine.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

usmarriedguy said:


> I agree Amp, just that more often than not it will not result in your outcome. I would have to guess that even if you did not say it directly, your wife had to have the feeling that the marriage was on the line.
> 
> For most of us, if we threatened to simply withdraw emotionally the wives would say fine.


It all boils down to communication and empathy. At this point in your marriage, there appears to be issues with both. Drilled down to its simplest components my wife understood if I was to continue to meet her needs, she needed to meet mine for the marriage to be happy. Not to survive, but to be happy. One of the best books I read during R was "The Five Love Languages" It works on both issues (communication and empathy) and the concept is really quite simple. You should both read it.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Yeah Amp, I would say that simply because it happened to work out for you does not make you the Love Guru or that everyone's spouse can simply read a book and than come to this transformative change. 

While there are certainly many cases where a married couple may begin to have problems with sex drive caused by poor communications and other solvable problems there are also a lot caused by one spouse having a much lower drive and priority than the other and not seeing any reason that there should be higher frequency. 

Why would your desire for sex outweigh your wife's desire to not have sex? (other than if she want to keep you she better plan on supporting your needs)

Believe me, if your wife did not care about making it work you would be in a sexless marriage or divorced.


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## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

When this was discussed last spring, her first response was 'this is the way I am, deal with it'. I stated that I cant live that way and asked what her suggestion was. She said 'if you have to go elsewhere for it then go ahead...just dont plan on ever being with me again since I dont want a disease". A day or two later she changed course and made time for sex quite a bit the next few weeks. Then the well went dry again. Of course that starts the vicious circle - I get rejected time after time so after a while I quit trying. I believe I communicated my needs in no uncertain terms and here we are again. I guess this either has to be an annual event or I throw in the towel. 

I've heard that one of the worst mistakes a guy can do is move out of the house (my uncle went thru this). They consider it abandonment or something. Especially hard when my business is at the house. Business is down this yr and I'm struggling to make ends meet as it is - there is no way to afford two places even temporarily. I guess thats why I keep trudging along and just 'living with it'.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

soulsearch said:


> yeah.... it's been tempting to cheat and see how much better it could be. damn my parents for raising me with morals! (and I say that only partly tongue in cheek)


One cannot steal someone's discarded trash. The immoral aspect of adultery is linked to giving another what is rightfully a spouse's. If the spouse quite clearly doesn't want it, who is the victim and on what basis might they claim victim status? Does a piece of paper demand celibacy of you? The promise to be sexually faithful assumes the parties agree to attend to the reasonable sexual needs of their partner. I agree to perform x work for x wages. If I refuse to work, my boss is released from any moral obligation to pay me. If your parents are happy to hang on a sexless cross for their entire lives, that is their choice. For you to be the complete human your Creator designed, sexual intercourse is naturally a part of that; as natural and necessary as eating, drinking, and breathing. Deliberately starving because you are paired with a selfish bat who has an abundance of food but just won't provide would serve no one. 
I'm a believer, I'm a Christian. I had very pious parents and grandparents. If your wife can but just won't, I'll never look at you sideways or judge you if you have to get your reasonable needs met elsewhere. Would it be more honorable to destroy the marriage and subject your kids to a life without their father? Why punish yourself and them when your wife is the one in the wrong? She is the withholder. Whatever ill consequences she receives for choosing to be a fraudulent wife, she has earned in spades and I would attach no guilt to it.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

UserName1 said:


> When this was discussed last spring, her first response was 'this is the way I am, deal with it'. I stated that I cant live that way and asked what her suggestion was. She said 'if you have to go elsewhere for it then go ahead...just dont plan on ever being with me again since I dont want a disease". A day or two later she changed course and made time for sex quite a bit the next few weeks. Then the well went dry again. Of course that starts the vicious circle - I get rejected time after time so after a while I quit trying. I believe I communicated my needs in no uncertain terms and here we are again. I guess this either has to be an annual event or I throw in the towel.
> 
> I've heard that one of the worst mistakes a guy can do is move out of the house (my uncle went thru this). They consider it abandonment or something. Especially hard when my business is at the house. Business is down this yr and I'm struggling to make ends meet as it is - there is no way to afford two places even temporarily. I guess thats why I keep trudging along and just 'living with it'.


How are you with meeting her needs? In view of her rejection, are you still doing the stuff that you used to do to show her you love her?


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

usmarriedguy said:


> Yeah Amp, I would say that simply because it happened to work out for you does not make you the Love Guru or that everyone's spouse can simply read a book and than come to this transformative change.
> 
> While there are certainly many cases where a married couple may begin to have problems with sex drive caused by poor communications and other solvable problems there are also a lot caused by one spouse having a much lower drive and priority than the other and not seeing any reason that there should be higher frequency.
> 
> ...


No love guru here, just stating what the forum is here for. Listing what worked for us. My wife and I were lucky to beat the odds on a lot of things, primarily our recovery. Our process certainly wouldn't work for everyone. I read a number of books and discarded 80% of what was discussed, but found 20% that was very helpful. The forum is the same way, take what might apply, toss the rest but at least you have some exposure to other perspectives.



usmarriedguy said:


> Why would your desire for sex outweigh your wife's desire to not have sex? (other than if she want to keep you she better plan on supporting your needs)


This is where I think the disconnect comes from, especially in husbands. It is not making my needs more important than hers. It is about her respecting mine and for me to do the same. We are a HD/LD couple, that will unlikely change. The "60-day challenge" was a reasonable commitment I wanted from her to see if we could stop going around in circles as we had for years. Some improvement, then back to the same-ole same-ole. Most everyone on this forum has dealt with that on some issue or another. I don't force her to have sex, she is a willing partner. However, she will never initiate and that's OK, I can deal with that. The point is not how we managed to correct this in our marriage, the bigger picture is that we recognized each other's needs and are happy to meet them. There are things my wife likes to do that I'm not interested in or just don't care for. I do them because they are important to her and her happiness is important. There is no resentment involved and I doubt there is any on her part either. Simple formula My needs = her needs, her needs = mine.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> I agree Amp, just that more often than not it will not result in your outcome. I would have to guess that even if you did not say it directly, your wife had to have the feeling that the marriage was on the line.
> 
> For most of us, if we threatened to simply withdraw emotionally the wives would say fine.


I don't think withdrawing emotionally, stopping filling needs, making moves to divorce, etc. usually work, either. 

My husband did it, and I just found other ways to be happy outside of my miserable marriage. I fully expected that we'd eventually divorce--that knowledge didn't change my level of desire for my husband at all. 

And I'm high drive, by the way. If you're not doing it for your wife and you want the real thing, then you're going to have to do something to make yourself desirable. 

Start by taking back your bed. Even if it makes you a cripple.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

UserName1 said:


> When this was discussed last spring, her first response was 'this is the way I am, deal with it'. I stated that I cant live that way and asked what her suggestion was. She said 'if you have to go elsewhere for it then go ahead...just dont plan on ever being with me again since I dont want a disease". A day or two later she changed course and made time for sex quite a bit the next few weeks. Then the well went dry again. Of course that starts the vicious circle - I get rejected time after time so after a while I quit trying. I believe I communicated my needs in no uncertain terms and here we are again. I guess this either has to be an annual event or I throw in the towel.
> 
> I've heard that one of the worst mistakes a guy can do is move out of the house (my uncle went thru this). They consider it abandonment or something. Especially hard when my business is at the house. Business is down this yr and I'm struggling to make ends meet as it is - there is no way to afford two places even temporarily. I guess thats why I keep trudging along and just 'living with it'.


A couple of things...

First, her about face about you getting sex elsewhere was telling. She realized what she said and wanted to pull it back. This indicates she does not want you to go elsewhere because of what will happen in the marriage (emotional connection, divorce, etc...)

Second, leaving the house is a big mistake, but so is leaving the bedroom. Sorry but I don't care that she can't sleep. She cut your balls off but putting you out of the bedroom. Sorry to sound harsh about it. Go to her purse, get your balls back and move back into the bedroom. If she can't sleep, have her move out.

So what do you do now?

Lack of sex isn't the issue... something else is. Lack of sex is a symptom of the other issue.

Note: During all this time you should be initiating with her. if she declines, let it pass.

1 - Figure out what her needs are and meet them. If you have to ask her what her needs are, go ahead. Better that SHE outline them than you guess at them.

2 - Meet them on a consistent basis. Confirm that you are. "Honey, remember when you said non-sexual intimacy was one of your needs? I think last night cuddling on the couch was pretty nice, no?"

3 - Once you can honestly say you are meeting her needs and she has not been meeting yours, have an honest conversation with her. Ask her whether she feels you are meeting her needs. Point out where you have... not just one example but many. Tell her that a "fulfilling, intimate sexual relationship" (NOT "sex") is one of your needs "to make this marriage work." Without it, you will become resentful and frustrated and less likely to want to meet her needs. If that happens, the marriage will be over.

4 - Explain to her that the marriage contract includes an implied promise to be monogamous with each other AND to meet each other's sexual needs. You can't have one without the other.

5 - Divorce MUST be on the table. Otherwise, what incentive does she have to change if there is no consequences?

6 - Don't accept answers like she's "too tired", "not interested" in sex, etc.... Come home from work one day and tell her you quit your job because you were "too tired" or "not interested" in working. How would that go over?

7 - Don't accept comments like "you only want sex" or "all you think about is sex". You do not have to justify wanting a "fulfilling, intimate sexual relationship" with the person you love. Don't minimize it, don't feel bad about it, don't feel dirty about it.

All of the above assumes there are no physical or mental reasons stopping her from being intimate with you. If there are, those need to be addressed first.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> How are you with meeting her needs? In view of her rejection, are you still doing the stuff that you used to do to show her you love her?


Why would someone love their abuser? She's eating and she has a home. That's more consideration than she warrants. If he's even still coming home, it's a remarkable testament to selfless service. He drags himself to work every day so he can support a zombie, a being who isn't really alive and does not have the decency to leave or die.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> Why would someone love their abuser? She's eating and she has a home. That's more consideration than she warrants. If he's even still coming home, it's a remarkable testament to selfless service. He drags himself to work every day so he can support a zombie, a being who isn't really alive and does not have the decency to leave or die.


Did you post this in the right thread?


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## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> How are you with meeting her needs? In view of her rejection, are you still doing the stuff that you used to do to show her you love her?


In all honesty, the answer is both yes and no. I provide for the family, do all the family events, help chauffeur kids all over, help with dishes, put my laundry away, maintain the house/yard, don't go out at night with the guys, and so on. Where I lack is the small 'romantic' gestures. And why? Again it comes down to rejection. I come home and she's too busy for a hug, not feeling well, grouchy, whatever. I offer to help and she either says no or *****es for doing it all wrong. I peeled an apple the other night and had to listen to how I don't do it right. I do the dishes and get scolded for putting a pan in the wrong place. On and on and on. Its everything, everyday. Not only does that put up a barrier to closeness, after a while ya just dont care anymore. I'm sorry, but with all that nagging the last thing I feel like is offering a romantic gesture. Its like getting kicked below the belt and coming back for more for 18 years.


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

I agree with the above post. Might I add when you talk to her don't let her make you feel like a sex addict or perv. If she tries to shift the blame or name call give it right back explaining that she is a very cold wife etc. Don't meekly feel sorry for yourself stand up for your sexual rights. At the altar you both vowed to forsake all others, you have been faithful in seeking her but she has broken hers by not actively pursuing you.

It was not until our 7th year of marriage I started to learn about my husband's sexuality. I started to read books on marriage in general which then led to reading books about sexuality. Probably by about year 10 I finally humbled myself to him and told him to forgive me and that I will never refuse him in the future.

Could the two of you have regular date nights that include reading up on marriage? You guys could read a chapter a night or week all the while spending time alone.

I feel bad for you, stand up for your self. Don't let her bully you on this or shift the blame back to you. Remind her that all this time you have been faithful and that most guys would have cheated by now.

Good Luck


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> I don't think withdrawing emotionally, stopping filling needs, making moves to divorce, etc. usually work, either.
> 
> My husband did it, and I just found other ways to be happy outside of my miserable marriage. I fully expected that we'd eventually divorce--that knowledge didn't change my level of desire for my husband at all.
> 
> And I'm high drive, by the way. If you're not doing it for your wife and you want the real thing, then you're going to have to do something to make yourself desirable.


I agree that he needs to make himself desirable, but I think part of that is about keeping his self-respect. She knows it is a need of his, knows she is not meeting it and knows he is continuing to do all the nice stuff for her. That is not a recipe for inciting desire.

I would suggest His Needs/Her Needs and Five Love Languages. Also Married Man's Sex Life. Require that she read the first two as well.



> Start by taking back your bed. Even if it makes you a cripple.


I agree with this.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

UserName1 said:


> In all honesty, the answer is both yes and no. I provide for the family, do all the family events, help chauffeur kids all over, help with dishes, put my laundry away, maintain the house/yard, don't go out at night with the guys, and so on. Where I lack is the small 'romantic' gestures. And why? Again it comes down to rejection. I come home and she's too busy for a hug, not feeling well, grouchy, whatever. I offer to help and she either says no or *****es for doing it all wrong. I peeled an apple the other night and had to listen to how I don't do it right. I do the dishes and get scolded for putting a pan in the wrong place. On and on and on. Its everything, everyday. Not only does that put up a barrier to closeness, after a while ya just dont care anymore. I'm sorry, but with all that nagging the last thing I feel like is offering a romantic gesture. Its like getting kicked below the belt and coming back for more for 18 years.


Look at fitness testing in Married Man's Sex Life and see how you can better respond. If my wife complained about how I incorrectly peeled an apple, I would have laughed, grabbed it from her, and said I guess its for me. Then I would have walked out of the room. Consider that she wants you to stand up to some of that behavior.


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## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

Chris Taylor said:


> A couple of things...
> 
> First, her about face about you getting sex elsewhere was telling. She realized what she said and wanted to pull it back. This indicates she does not want you to go elsewhere because of what will happen in the marriage (emotional connection, divorce, etc...)
> 
> ...


Outstanding reply - Thank you!!
But I still dont understand the 'take your bed back' thing. What will it accomplish? 18 yrs of experience tells me that it will not lead to sex, and neither of us will sleep well.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

UserName1 said:


> In all honesty, the answer is both yes and no. I provide for the family, do all the family events, help chauffeur kids all over, help with dishes, put my laundry away, maintain the house/yard, don't go out at night with the guys, and so on. Where I lack is the small 'romantic' gestures. And why? Again it comes down to rejection. I come home and she's too busy for a hug, not feeling well, grouchy, whatever. I offer to help and she either says no or *****es for doing it all wrong. I peeled an apple the other night and had to listen to how I don't do it right. I do the dishes and get scolded for putting a pan in the wrong place. On and on and on. Its everything, everyday. Not only does that put up a barrier to closeness, after a while ya just dont care anymore. I'm sorry, but with all that nagging the last thing I feel like is offering a romantic gesture. Its like getting kicked below the belt and coming back for more for 18 years.


Man, this hits a nerve with me. I treated my husband like that and he just took it. He walked on eggshells around me, trying to do everything "just right" to avoid confrontation. He figured giving in to me would make me happy and keep our marriage smooth, but it just left me adrift, feeling like it was up to me to run the show. I needed his input. I needed his push back. I needed his participation. I didn't know it then, but I do now. 

Having a yes man for a husband is a real libido killer. 

You could read No More Mr. Nice Guy or try MMSLP. Either way, if your wife is anything like me, some manning up is in order. 

And you might want to try a good hard spanking, too. Just to reestablish order.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

GettingIt said:


> Man, this hits a nerve with me. I treated my husband like that and he just took it. He walked on eggshells around me, trying to do everything "just right" to avoid confrontation. He figured giving in to me would make me happy and keep our marriage smooth, but it just left me adrift, feeling like it was up to me to run the show. I needed his input. I needed his push back. I needed his participation. I didn't know it then, but I do now.
> 
> Having a yes man for a husband is a real libido killer.


Thank you!!!

I have said it many times here. Many men who love their wives tend to be non confrontational with them and it rarely turns out well. Don't be a prick, but don't be a doormat either.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

UserName1 said:


> In all honesty, the answer is both yes and no. I provide for the family, do all the family events, help chauffeur kids all over, help with dishes, put my laundry away, maintain the house/yard, don't go out at night with the guys, and so on.


Looking at this again, I see a couple issues that you should fix.

First, make sure that, in your efforts to help around the house, you have not transformed from a partner to a butler. I did a lot of that in an effort to take the load off my wife to get more sex. My wife stopped picking up after herself and started leaving her glass on the end table. My light bulb moment came when I forgot one evening and she chastised me for not cleaning up after her. The next time it happened, I told her I would let the staff know and then walked away.

Second, find some things that you can do to get out of the house on occasion. Meet up with friends, hit the gym or start a sport. Something that is fun for you and gets you out doing things a couple times a month. Show her (and your) that you can be fun to be around and that your happiness does not depend on her.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Um, let me know if I'm stepping out of line here . . . but does your wife respond to your being aggressive and rough in bed? You don't even have to answer that, I'll just put it out there that if she does, you might want to step it up even more. 

Try and forget, just a little, what your mother taught you about how to treat a lady . . .


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Did you try telling him that you needed his input? Did you act like his input was welcome and useful?

Contrary to popular belief most people can't read minds. Some of us can, but even then...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Did you try telling him that you needed his input? Did you act like his input was welcome and useful?
> 
> Contrary to popular belief most people can't read minds. Some of us can, but even then...


No I did not. Because I didn't know at the time that it was a problem. At the time it was a problem that he couldn't read my mind and figure out HOW TO CUT THE F*CKING APPLE!!!

You men are always thinking that we know what we want and are deviously keeping it from you so that you continue to suffer. HEAR THIS: WOMEN OFTEN DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL WE WANT ANY MORE THAN YOU DO.

We're "supposed" to be all liberated and equal and that's all well and good out in society. We DO want that. Problem is, it makes us stand up to our men at home and they respond by doing what THEY are "supposed" to do out in society--be a gentleman, keep your wife happy, put your own needs last. 

I can't speak for all women, but that dynamic translated into NO SEX at our house for many a long year. It wasn't the dynamic that we started out with for the first ten years, but after we had kids, we fell into that pattern. It's been reversed with increasingly satisfying results.


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## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Um, let me know if I'm stepping out of line here . . . but does your wife respond to your being aggressive and rough in bed? You don't even have to answer that, I'll just put it out there that if she does, you might want to step it up even more.


There is no time in bed, therefore there is nothing to step up. Nice thought though! 



> I needed his input. I needed his push back. I needed his participation


If he ever did participate or give input, did you make him feel like crap when he did? There must have been a reason he walked on eggshells. So the man has to 'man up' and the woman can simply continue her behavior? Maybe the book would help me understand...



> Second, find some things that you can do to get out of the house on occasion. Meet up with friends, hit the gym or start a sport.


I go to the gym every morning and have friends there, and fish some weeknight bass tournaments in the summer with buddies (Overall points champions in both clubs this year. She likes that I actually make money doing my hobby!)


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

UserName1 said:


> If he ever did participate or give input, did you make him feel like crap when he did? There must have been a reason he walked on eggshells. So the man has to 'man up' and the woman can simply continue her behavior? Maybe the book would help me understand...


Part of it is being confident enough in yourself that her throwing a fit does not mean you feel like crap. The only person that can make you feel that way is you. 

The book will help in dealing with this. I use humor to deflect, as well as point out she is being unreasonable. In a sense, I don't take her "attack" seriously and make clear that I don't plan to. I certainly never let her see that it bothers me. My wife is great about not using these very often, so I don't have the same practice that others have. Do a search on this form for fitness tests or $h!t tests to get some other ways to handle them.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

UserName1 said:


> I go to the gym every morning and have friends there, and fish some weeknight bass tournaments in the summer with buddies (Overall points champions in both clubs this year. She likes that I actually make money doing my hobby!)


Those are good. But make sure that you do somethings with friends in the winter as well. My point is that being the husband who never goes out with the guys can actually be a bad thing if taken to the extreme.


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## soulsearch (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: Re: Near the end of my rope...another sexless marriage thread*



over20 said:


> I agree with the above post. Might I add when you talk to her don't let her make you feel like a sex addict or perv. If she tries to shift the blame or name call give it right back explaining that she is a very cold wife etc. Don't meekly feel sorry for yourself stand up for your sexual rights. At the altar you both vowed to forsake all others, you have been faithful in seeking her but she has broken hers by not actively pursuing you.
> 
> It was not until our 7th year of marriage I started to learn about my husband's sexuality. I started to read books on marriage in general which then led to reading books about sexuality. Probably by about year 10 I finally humbled myself to him and told him to forgive me and that I will never refuse him in the future.
> 
> ...


this is awesome, and you deserve recognition for it. unfortunately, most people (men and women) never even attempt to figure out what their spouse needs.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> We're "supposed" to be all liberated and equal and that's all well and good out in society. We DO want that. Problem is, it makes us stand up to our men at home and they respond by doing what THEY are "supposed" to do out in society--be a gentleman, keep your wife happy, put your own needs last.



Considering that women are more likely to hold intimacy hostage when their partners can't read their minds. taking the safe approach seems prudent.

Conditioning once again.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

UserName1 said:


> There is no time in bed, therefore there is nothing to step up. Nice thought though!


Did you guys ever have a sex life? What was the dynamic like?



UserName1 said:


> If he ever did participate or give input, did you make him feel like crap when he did? There must have been a reason he walked on eggshells. So the man has to 'man up' and the woman can simply continue her behavior? Maybe the book would help me understand...


We'd didn't have huge fights, but our house was just a pressure cooker of constant, unresolved tension. He is conflict adverse and would avoid it at all costs. Look, he'll never have a good time asserting himself with me--we are incredibly different in outlook and personality. Is that a reason to just roll over and give up, because marriage is hard? If your wife gives you grief about nonsense items, learn to show her that you don't give a damn. Getting pissy about her attitude, avoiding conflict, or putting your opinions last until you're resentful and a drag to be around is about as unsexy as you can get. 

There are just some things in our marriage that we are not going to resolve. We used to let that tension hang over us like a pall. Now that we understand the psychology of my desire a little bit better, we use sex to work out what we can't work out otherwise. 

My husband says that No More Mr. Nice Guy and MMSLP have been HUGE eye openers and very useful. I'm grateful that he is willing to work so hard on this with me. I feel so much more at peace in our marriage now that he's stopped letting my behavior affect him so deeply. I want to be able to speak my mind and not have to worry about it rocking his world so badly that he turns in his man card.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Considering that women are more likely to hold intimacy hostage when their partners can't read their minds. taking the safe approach seems prudent.
> 
> Conditioning once again.


You can be safe, it just ain't gonna get you laid.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> You can be safe, it just ain't gonna get you laid.



No disagreement. But is it the right approach, or are we conditioning young males to either beta their brains out and not get laid at the end versus act like alpha he-men, get laid a plenty, and expect to do that for life?

It's a negative feedback loop. What happens if everyone turns uber-alpha and there are no betas except at PetSmart?


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## not recognizable (Mar 19, 2011)

john117 said:


> No disagreement. But is it the right approach, or are we conditioning young males to either beta their brains out and not get laid at the end versus act like alpha he-men, get laid a plenty, and expect to do that for life?
> 
> It's a negative feedback loop. What happens if everyone turns uber-alpha and there are no betas except at PetSmart?


Please don't assume all women find a roughing up to be sexy. A man who talks sweetly and gently to me melts me in all the right ways.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm quite the superficial beta myself, but there's always a little equation behind what I do. I do wonder about most of my friends who are truly Nice Guys with no equations.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> No disagreement. But is it the right approach, or are we conditioning young males to either beta their brains out and not get laid at the end versus act like alpha he-men, get laid a plenty, and expect to do that for life?
> 
> It's a negative feedback loop. What happens if everyone turns uber-alpha and there are no betas except at PetSmart?


I don't think any "one size fits all" approach should be advocated. If you are interested in having your wife desire you, and are amenable to making changes, then find out what she desires and do it. 

But don't get too comfortable, because what trips our desire is apt to change. 

Flexiblity: there, that's what I'd advocate.


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## Want2babettrme (May 17, 2013)

where_are_we said:


> Oh. My. God.
> 
> 
> I wish my husband would say to me, "I want you to submit to me!"
> ...



We should introduce him to my wife. They'll get along just fine. :rofl:


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## yolo62 (Dec 19, 2013)

UserName1 said:


> Another husband here in a sexless marriage. We're both very physically fit. Kids are older now and in school all day. She only works part-time. (cant use those as excuses) She says she enjoys it when it does happen, just has no desire and could care less about it. For it to ever happen it HAS to be a big production that takes like a couple hours. But then there is never enough time - vicious circle. Had a big talk about it last spring. Of course things improved for a short time, then back to the old ways and not one time since. It's like we're roommates just putting on a show for the sake of family and the kids. Don't even sleep in the same room now - wouldnt change things if we did since she will not do it if the kids are in the house anyways (and its a pretty big house with locks on the door!). She's completely fine with it and not willing to change so as I see it, it's down to me having to live with it or separate. Am I missing any options? Is going without sex really worth breaking apart a family and losing a couple hundred grand? I dont want to cross the fence and learn that the grass ISNT greener after all. If yes, is it better to give an ultimatum first or just blind-side her and say that its time to go?


I found myself in more or less the same situation as you. The wife is not happy that I need sex to relieve stress and tension. Our once a month sex is very quick (within 5 minutes), as she just urges me to "get it over with"! 

However, I don't think that it's worth breaking up the family purely because of lack of sex. You could make clear that, like every other husband, you need to get some kind of sexual satisfaction in life. Let it be known that if you can't get it from her (the wife), you may be forced to get it elsewhere and ask her to think about it or to agree to it. 

Hope my comment helps!


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## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Did you guys ever have a sex life? What was the dynamic like?
> 
> We'd didn't have huge fights, but our house was just a pressure cooker of constant, unresolved tension. He is conflict adverse and would avoid it at all costs. Look, he'll never have a good time asserting himself with me--we are incredibly different in outlook and personality. Is that a reason to just roll over and give up, because marriage is hard? If your wife gives you grief about nonsense items, learn to show her that you don't give a damn. Getting pissy about her attitude, avoiding conflict, or putting your opinions last until you're resentful and a drag to be around is about as unsexy as you can get.
> 
> ...


Question 1: Very sporadic at best. A good week or two maybe a couple times a year, then nothing. When its 'on', its outstanding - and she would say the same. There is no doubt she has multiple orgasms (based on the clean up required:smthumbup 

Your next paragraph describes our house very well - constant tension. As long as that is there she has zero desire to be romantic. Obviously you still do even under those conditions which is the big difference. Your last paragraph would indicate that it all comes down to him dealing with it differently and you continuing to do/say what you want. If I have that right, that's where I have a problem. Shouldn't both sides work to improve? I see that as still 'turning in the man card'. If she won't even try to stop nagging and belittling me, I'll never be able to change how I react to it. If there is at least acknowledgment of the issue and effort shown, I will be much more inclined to do the same. She's a perfectionist and is always right. She never says "I'm sorry" or "I was wrong".


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

UserName1 said:


> If she won't even try to stop nagging and belittling me, I'll never be able to change how I react to it. If there is at least acknowledgment of the issue and effort shown, I will be much more inclined to do the same. She's a perfectionist and is always right. She never says "I'm sorry" or "I was wrong".


Ah, yes, the "if only the other person would change, we'd be happy" marriage. Hint: as much as you think your wife is the problem, she thinks you are. You're probably both right. You're both trying to change the other person so that the marriage will be fixed. When in reality, the only person either of you can change is yourselves. So, start by changing you. 

Basically, you're saying that it's up to her to decide for you, by her behavior and words, whether or not you are happy. I think that's unhealthy and co-dependent. You should be controlling yourself and your emotional state. You absolutely can change how you react to her. Learn to disconnect your emotions from her. She cannot make you happy. She cannot make you unhappy. Those are reactions to her that you are permitting. Stop.

Now, I'm not saying that she's not eroding your love for her with her behavior. Simply that relying on another person to provide your emotional state for you is a bad idea. As is a tit-for-tat dynamic where you dig in your heels and won't meet her needs until she meets yours or behaves as you'd prefer. Work on being a happy person, in and of yourself. Try to meet her needs (not every wish or each petty request, _needs_) regardless of what she does, but calmly let her know that her behavior is unacceptable to you and is endangering the marriage. If, in say 3-6 months, she's still a raging virago of anger and pettiness, stop and re-evaluate. You don't have to keep giving to someone who just takes and gives nothing in return. But since you're here and she's not, and the only person you can change is yourself, you may have to be the one to go first in shaking up the marital dynamic.

It really may be that your wife isn't marriage material. But you should make [email protected] sure you are. Read, learn, employ new strategies. Practice on her for a while. If there's no change, end your marriage and find someone more compatible with whom to employ all you've learned while practicing. 

Oh, and just because I always do, I highly recommend you read _His Needs, Her Needs _ and _Lovebusters_, both by Willard Harley, if you haven't yet.


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

UserName1 said:


> Another husband here in a sexless marriage. We're both very physically fit. Kids are older now and in school all day. She only works part-time. (cant use those as excuses) She says she enjoys it when it does happen, just has no desire and could care less about it. For it to ever happen it HAS to be a big production that takes like a couple hours. But then there is never enough time - vicious circle. Had a big talk about it last spring. Of course things improved for a short time, then back to the old ways and not one time since. It's like we're roommates just putting on a show for the sake of family and the kids. Don't even sleep in the same room now - wouldnt change things if we did since she will not do it if the kids are in the house anyways (and its a pretty big house with locks on the door!). She's completely fine with it and not willing to change so as I see it, it's down to me having to live with it or separate. Am I missing any options? Is going without sex really worth breaking apart a family and losing a couple hundred grand? I dont want to cross the fence and learn that the grass ISNT greener after all. If yes, is it better to give an ultimatum first or just blind-side her and say that its time to go?


Exactly why I think most women only see men as sperm donors and a check / meal ticket. No offense intended just saying.
Sometimes the grass IS greener on the other side. The mere fact that you talked about it and some short term changes were made shows that she's conscious of what's going on.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

UserName1 said:


> Question 1: Very sporadic at best. A good week or two maybe a couple times a year, then nothing. When its 'on', its outstanding - and she would say the same. There is no doubt she has multiple orgasms (based on the clean up required:smthumbup


How about when you were dating? Did you two ever have a good sex life? If not, why did you marry her?



> Your next paragraph describes our house very well - constant tension. As long as that is there she has zero desire to be romantic. Obviously you still do even under those conditions which is the big difference. Your last paragraph would indicate that it all comes down to him dealing with it differently and you continuing to do/say what you want. If I have that right, that's where I have a problem. Shouldn't both sides work to improve? I see that as still 'turning in the man card'. If she won't even try to stop nagging and belittling me, I'll never be able to change how I react to it. If there is at least acknowledgment of the issue and effort shown, I will be much more inclined to do the same. She's a perfectionist and is always right. She never says "I'm sorry" or "I was wrong".


Sure. In a perfect world. But we ain't in that. You are the one here, so you can shake your fist at the unfairness of the world, or work to change yourself. At the end of the day, that is all you can do.

Having read GettingIt's other posts, she has changed and worked, not just her husband. But I think her point is the same as mine in that your wife is not the one posting here, you are. We can have all types of ideas for her, but they don't do any good. Someone needs to break your cycle.

You need to work on you for you. You are clearly unhappy, and I suspect it is beyond just the lack of sex. So go change yourself and work on making you happy. Stop putting up with her crap and walking around on eggshells like you are not worthy. Demonstrate your worth and take the lead, then help her when she starts changing.

With all of that said, the most important thing you need to learn is that *you will live, and in fact can be happy, without her*. Yes, your preference is that she stays part of your life and you have a wonderful marriage. But you can't guarantee that, because it requires her input as well. All you can guarantee is that you will work to make you happy.


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## LoveLonely (Dec 8, 2013)

UserName1 said:


> Dower rights. Wife gets half of everything. We have over 500k of assets and no debt. Then there's child support...


Screw that. I am sorry but I will be blunt. You don't have a relationship. I would quit my job and bag groceries. Then I would file for divorce.


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## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

LoveLonely said:


> Screw that. I am sorry but I will be blunt. You don't have a relationship. I would quit my job and bag groceries. Then I would file for divorce.


And the judge would order alimony and child support based on what you USED to make before quitting and bagging groceries and then filing for divorce. Saw it happen to a guy.

The courts have seen all the tricks and know how to screw you.


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

BeachGuy said:


> And the judge would order alimony and child support based on what you USED to make before quitting and bagging groceries and then filing for divorce. Saw it happen to a guy.
> 
> The courts have seen all the tricks and know how to screw you.


Honesty is the best policy. Just make sure you go for JOINT CUSTODY, this way everything is literally 50/50 (debts are 50/50 too). At least you can move on with your life and hopefully her part time work will sustain her. 
Just remember, any attempt to screw each other might work in the short term but your children are the ones that will suffer for it.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

I guess I mostly agree with Rowan. Treating someone bad or insulting them because they insulted or don't treat you the way you like may be satisfying but it is not a good way to effectively communicate. 

She could be more critical of the things you do as a way to justify not wanting to have sex with you. Or if she has always done that than she is just very picky and expects everything to be just like she is used to. 

I do think the fact that your wife turned around for a while after telling you that you could go find someone else is a good sign.

I don't really see the problem is that you sleep in separate beds. 

More likely I think there are a lot of people who have some different wiring in their brain and simply do not respond like the typical person. Most behavior can be modified but the person has to want to change. 

I do not think it is all that common for a woman to want a more dominate man (more than normal) but I suppose it is possible that she has specific sexual needs that are not being met fully that she does not fully understand or is embarrassed to say. 

My wife and I also have great sex, it just does not happen with the frequency I would like. For me I would rather do it only once a week and have her fully onboard than to do it three times a week and have her being less enthusiastic. Past the once a week though would be my limit. 

My wife is a very organized list making type and a set routine helped her. If your wife is like that than you might suggest starting a routine. Start with one day a week and maybe a four hour block of time that is set aside for you two. Maybe she would like a back rub, a long warm soak in the tub, or whatever, maybe just loving talk for an hour to get the ball rolling.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

UserName1 said:


> In all honesty, the answer is both yes and no. I provide for the family, do all the family events, help chauffeur kids all over, help with dishes, put my laundry away, maintain the house/yard, don't go out at night with the guys, and so on. Where I lack is the small 'romantic' gestures. And why? Again it comes down to rejection. I come home and she's too busy for a hug, not feeling well, grouchy, whatever. I offer to help and she either says no or *****es for doing it all wrong. I peeled an apple the other night and had to listen to how I don't do it right. I do the dishes and get scolded for putting a pan in the wrong place. On and on and on. Its everything, everyday. Not only does that put up a barrier to closeness, after a while ya just dont care anymore. I'm sorry, but with all that nagging the last thing I feel like is offering a romantic gesture. Its like getting kicked below the belt and coming back for more for 18 years.


There are many facets to improving a sexless marriage.

Facet #1 - you must figure out what her needs are (what is her equivalent of sex). You must not ask her what her needs are, becuase she will get mad that you don't know her well enough after all this time. And, she will think you are following a formula designed to get sex. Read a book called the 5 Love Languages.

Facet #2 - the concept of attractiveness. Yes, you must remain sexually attractive to your wife. A man cares about looks, body, visual stimulation. Women don't care too much about that (alhtough I"m sure many women will post how wrong I am... A sexist jerk. But, try an experimiment. Walk around naked in your house and see if your wife jumps you). So, how is a man attractive to a woman? I can tell you that women are not attracted to men they can nag without a strong, masculine reaction, coming back and shutting it down. Women are not attraccted to men who don't defend themselves. Women are also not attracted to men who cook and clean and jump through hoops, hoping it "gets her ina good mood so she will have sex".

Facet #3 - Defining what a marrige is to you, living by that definition, and expecdting your wife to live by that definition. A marriage is a sexual relationship. A marragie involves a man figuring out his wfe's needs and meeting them, and a woman doing the same. IN a marriage sometimes we give, and sometimes we receive. In a marriage, the husband and wife need to create a great marriage in order to emotionally feed the children..... In other words, you elevate Sex out of f the gutter.

Facet #4 - Accepting your wife for who she is. Yes, your wife is anormal woman a) probably is not obsessed with sex the way a man is and b) needs to have a reason / excuse to be sexual since sex was taught to her to be wrong. Therefore to expect her to turn it on as you do, will frustrate you.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Rowan said:


> Try to meet her needs (not every wish or each petty request, _needs_) regardless of what she does, but calmly let her know that her behavior is unacceptable to you and is endangering the marriage.


While I agree with much of what Rowan posted, I strongly disagree with this. Treating people well when they treat you poorly has two major problems. 

First, it rewards poor behavior. When she treats him badly and he is still wonderful, there is no incentive for her to change. She receives positive reinforcement for her bad behavior.

Second, it results in mixed messages. When he says he does not like her treatment, but then treats her like everything is fine, he is undermining his words. He may say he is upset, but his actions say that it is really not a big deal to him. So he needs to be consistent with his communication.

To be clear, I am not suggesting that he turn into a complete jerk, yelling at her and actively treating her poorly. But is she does not change, he needs to quit doing everything for her and start looking out for himself. Not necessarily all at once, but start slowly. If she asks you to get something while you are out, do it if it works for you, but don't change your trip. In essence, what would you do for a roommate. 

The key is making it clear that you still are not okay with her behavior and why you are not doing stuff for her. She is not looking out for your needs, so you are focusing more on you and don't have as much time for her. No passive-aggressive crap, but rather a consistent message (in both word and actions) that she is not treating you well and you happy about it.

You also need to keeping your side of the street clean. You are still a partner and need to do your part in keeping the household running. Work on you and be the type of man that is attractive.


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

Why do people reward bad behavior?!


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

aston said:


> Why do people reward bad behavior?!


Becuase he thinks if he keeps her happy, she will be in the mood for sex.

But, he found it does not work.


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

Hicks said:


> Becuase he thinks if he keeps her happy, she will be in the mood for sex.
> 
> But, he found it does not work.


I think this goes back to the issue of the "reward system". Men have become accustomed to viewing sex as a reward while women have used sex to their advantage in this regard. Sex between a couple in a healthy relationship should not be a "reward". Hence rewarding bad behavior. Just my two cents!:lol:


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

aston said:


> I think this goes back to the issue of the "reward system". Men have become accustomed to viewing sex as a reward while women have used sex to their advantage in this regard. Sex between a couple in a healthy relationship should not be a "reward". Hence rewarding bad behavior. Just my two cents!:lol:


I don't know if it is that simple. I agree that it should not strictly be a reward, in the sense that a spouse says you get sex if you cook dinner and do the dishes. But I am meeting my wife's needs for romance by doing that, she may be driven to ensure that she meets my needs for physical intimacy, thus rewarding my behavior.


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't know if it is that simple. I agree that it should not strictly be a reward, in the sense that a spouse says you get sex if you cook dinner and do the dishes. But I am meeting my wife's needs for romance by doing that, she may be driven to ensure that she meets my needs for physical intimacy, thus rewarding my behavior.


Equitable distribution of responsibilities in a relationship shouldn't be a predicate to intimacy. Meeting your wifes needs by providing a home, income / financial stability, among other things are extremely important. If she also works fulltime then the domestics is a different issue. If she works part time or doesn't work at all then I won't expect you to get home after a 10 hour work day to do dishes, laundry etc......and if you don't then no sex.
It's like my ex who decided to stay home for a bit and had the gumption to wait until I got home to ask me what I'm making for dinner or why the garbage hasn't been taken out. 

No it's not that simple but it's only as complicated as you make it. If I'm handling my business and ensuring my family is intact then meet me halfway. If you're withholding intimacy for whatever reason you chose not to communicate to me about till the point where I have to sit you down (and you make temporary changes), then the relationship itself is fractured at best.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Telling her that your needs are not being met and will eventually result in a poor or failed marriage is not rewarding her bad behavior. 

It is just that being as bad or immature as the person you are trying to deal with is not an effective way to deal with the problem. 

But there are likely two conditions that need to be met:
1. She has to want to make the marriage work more than having it her way.
2. She has to believe that not modifying conditions will result in a failed marriage.

Often people need a lot of time to process information that is in conflict to their point of view. It is better to not give them additional stress while they are processing.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

usmarriedguy said:


> Telling her that your needs are not being met and will eventually result in a poor or failed marriage is not rewarding her bad behavior.


Well, that was only part of the advice. The other was to continue to meet her needs even though she is actively treating him badly. How is that anything other than rewarding poor behavior?



> It is just that being as bad or immature as the person you are trying to deal with is not an effective way to deal with the problem.


I don't see how not doing nice things for someone who is treating you poorly is immature. I am not a doormat. I don't think the OP is either. Actions (and inaction) have consequences.



> But there are likely two conditions that need to be met:
> 1. She has to want to make the marriage work more than having it her way.
> 2. She has to believe that not modifying conditions will result in a failed marriage.


Agreed, though sometimes a beleif that not modifying conditions will result in not getting what she wants will be enough.



> Often people need a lot of time to process information that is in conflict to their point of view. It is better to not give them additional stress while they are processing.


I don't see that as extra stress. Again, I am not saying to treat her badly. I am saying that if after discussing with her your issues, she continues to act badly, he does not need to continue to work to meet her every need. Words alone fail in most situations, particularly when actions say the opposite. People tend to "hear" the message they want to receive. So when words say this is a problem, but actions say it is not, people will "hear" the actions because it requires the least effort. 

Even if it does add stress, I don't see that as his problem. It is important to remember that this is not just her not wanting sex. rather, she is actively nagging and berating him. She is not just neglecting him, she is affirmatively treating him poorly. That indicates a lack of respect for him. Taking it while still jumping to do everything for her will not change that dynamic.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

"How is that anything other than rewarding poor behavior?"

It is simply demonstrating good behavior. Rewarding bad behavior would be something like: they agree to have sex tomorrow and then tomorrow she says I don't feel like it and his response is great let me do something extra special for you then. 

Which is very different than saying she won't have sex with me when I want it so therefor I will withhold X from her because turnaround is fair play.

Yes that is true, a failed marriage or anything else she may want enough to motivate changes. 

It is just that in my opinion withholding those things is not an effective way to induce positive changes. It is certain that if the marriage fails than whatever needs he is providing currently will stop (other than his financial obligations) and she should think about that.


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## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

> Ah, yes, the "if only the other person would change, we'd be happy" marriage.


I'm not saying that ONLY she should change, but that it takes two. Is that so wrong?



> Basically, you're saying that it's up to her to decide for you, by her behavior and words, whether or not you are happy. I think that's unhealthy and co-dependent. You should be controlling yourself and your emotional state. You absolutely can change how you react to her. Learn to disconnect your emotions from her. She cannot make you happy. She cannot make you unhappy. Those are reactions to her that you are permitting. Stop.


So you're saying that if you walk in the door and are greeted with criticisms, anger, bad mood, etc. that you yourself can just smile, sweet talk, give a hug, be happy as a lark and feel the world is a beautiful place? You can be 'happy' in that environment? I cant get my head around that at all. Maybe some would say to walk away and take a time-out. Then that leaves her alone making dinner, attending to the 3 kids, etc and then she's twice as irate! Please tell me how YOU would handle the situation described above and how your wife would respond to your actions. Give me practical situational suggestions please


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

UserName1 said:


> I'm not saying that ONLY she should change, but that it takes two. Is that so wrong?
> 
> 
> So you're saying that if you walk in the door and are greeted with criticisms, anger, bad mood, etc. that you yourself can just smile, sweet talk, give a hug, be happy as a lark and feel the world is a beautiful place? You can be 'happy' in that environment? I cant get my head around that at all. Maybe some would say to walk away and take a time-out. Then that leaves her alone making dinner, attending to the 3 kids, etc and then she's twice as irate! Please tell me how YOU would handle the situation described above and how your wife would respond to your actions. Give me practical situational suggestions please


I'm with you 100%! I lived the scenario you painted above for the last 3 of the 7 years (together 9 total) I was married.
It's not worth it. Sometimes I got home and sat in my car dreading going inside to the usual ambush. Interestingly, after I walked away now she's the nicest and most respectful person (divorced over 3 years now). Perhaps it's because she know I don't have to tolerate her anymore.

Now such a situation you have to draw clear lines cause it usually morphs and overtime it will only get worse. You either take control of the situation so you don't get to the pint where you walk away....or you watch it deteriorate.

RULE: It IS rewarding bad behavior as stated earlier, no matter which way you dice it. Especially since you've discussed this with her in the past and she made very temporary changes. 
So..for her to revert is simply bad behavior. it's that simple.


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## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

Hicks said:


> Becuase he thinks if he keeps her happy, she will be in the mood for sex.
> 
> But, he found it does not work.


No, that's not true. I dont even expect sex anymore. The answer is to minimize the damage. I can put up a fight and make the problem worse, or just go with it and let it be over sooner. When I say that I cannot accept the way she is talking to me, the response is "then do what I'm telling you and I wont have to say it again".


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

usmarriedguy said:


> "How is that anything other than rewarding poor behavior?"
> 
> It is simply demonstrating good behavior. Rewarding bad behavior would be something like: they agree to have sex tomorrow and then tomorrow she says I don't feel like it and his response is great let me do something extra special for you then.
> 
> Which is very different than saying she won't have sex with me when I want it so therefor I will withhold X from her because turnaround is fair play.


If that is all that was happening, perhaps. But it is not. She is actively taking actions to treat him poorly. It is not merely the sex, but the disrespect.



> Yes that is true, a failed marriage or anything else she may want enough to motivate changes.
> 
> It is just that in my opinion withholding those things is not an effective way to induce positive changes. It is certain that if the marriage fails than whatever needs he is providing currently will stop (other than his financial obligations) and she should think about that.


But is he continues to do all the same nice things he did before, his words are empty. "I am very unhappy and your continued disrespect and refusal to meet my needs" looks pretty empty when it is followed by an offer to massage her feet or cook her a meal. 

She is clearly unhappy with him and her marriage. We know this based on both her words and her actions. There is no ambiguity. Saying one thing and doing another rarely effects a change either.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

UserName1 said:


> So you're saying that if you walk in the door and are greeted with criticisms, anger, bad mood, etc. that you yourself can just smile, sweet talk, give a hug, be happy as a lark and feel the world is a beautiful place? You can be 'happy' in that environment? I cant get my head around that at all. Maybe some would say to walk away and take a time-out. Then that leaves her alone making dinner, attending to the 3 kids, etc and then she's twice as irate! Please tell me how YOU would handle the situation described above and how your wife would respond to your actions. Give me practical situational suggestions please


Good lord no. But you don't have to take it either. Laugh, tell her that she clearly has been eating too many crabby patties and tell her you will be happy to talk when she can be respectful. Then walk away and do the other crap that needs to be done without being around her. Attend to the kids and their homework, do some other chores, whatever. But don't engage when she is being disrespectful.

There are a whole host of ways to address this between sitting there taking it with a "Thank you ma'am, may I have another" and walking out of the house. The key is don't let her bad mood make you have a bad mood. 

Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy or the Married Man's Sex Life? What about His Needs/Her Needs or The Five Love Languages? This is work man. It won't be easy. It requires you taking the first steps. You have to clean up your side of the street. It also requires you not accepting her poor treatment.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

UserName1 said:


> No, that's not true. I dont even expect sex anymore. The answer is to minimize the damage. I can put up a fight and make the problem worse, or just go with it and let it be over sooner. When I say that I cannot accept the way she is talking to me, the response is "then do what I'm telling you and I wont have to say it again".


You should be following your statement with "I am ready to discus when you can do so with respect" and then walking away. Don't engage and get into arguments. Be strong and insitant that you will not accept anything other than her being respectful. She can be mad, upset and disagree. But she cannot act like she has.

Honestly, a lot of this is your fault. She throws a tantrum and you cower and give in. Look at Super Nanny and see the dynamic. A five year old throws a fit and the adults cater to them. How does that work for them?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

UserName1 said:


> No, that's not true. I dont even expect sex anymore. The answer is to minimize the damage. I can put up a fight and make the problem worse, or just go with it and let it be over sooner. When I say that I cannot accept the way she is talking to me, the response is "then do what I'm telling you and I wont have to say it again".



Awesome. So assuming she does not hold any trump cards over you what's to stop you from treating her like she treats you? 

My favorite term is "marital warfare" which is simply a modern version of the Biblical "an eye for an eye".

A marriage works only when the whole is more than the sum of its parts. 

It's not fun to do it with children around but that's about the only way to get her to realize that she's emotionally abusing you.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If she is apt to throwing tantrums etc I would also look at BPD as a possible issue...


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

User, you cannot tolerate disrespectful talk.

Think of it as a test. You know women are complicated. So they do things like test their husbands.

Here is how it goes. Before she decides to be sexual with you she is going to test you to see what kind of man you are. One such test is the "belittle my husband test". If her belittling or nagging causes you to react like a child trying to get in Mommy's good graces, you fail. She associates your behavior with a child and not a sexual partner. If you strongly or humorously brush it off and make BASIC RESPECT a condition for interacting with you AT ALL you will accomplish two things. 1. You will always be treated with respect. 2. Your wife will view you as a strong, confident man which is more attractive to her.

Don't knock it till you try it.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

And that sleeping in another room thing... 

For years I got criticiced for "waking her up".. I roll around too much, fart too loud, get up too often, close the door too hard, blah blah blah. As if she never in a million years did anything that woke me up. And I let this pattern be the "understood and tolerated". She can ***** at me for waking her up, so I would say something when she woke me up... Guess what happend? It would cause a tirade where she listed all of the things I do to annoy her while she is trying to sleep.

So I tried a different approach. One time she complained about me waking her up. I told her "sometimes you have to take the good with the bad". I have not heard it since.

So sleeping in your bed is of utomst importance, becuase you sleeping in a chair speaks to who dominates the marrage


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

UserName1 said:


> Question 1: Very sporadic at best. A good week or two maybe a couple times a year, then nothing. When its 'on', its outstanding - and she would say the same. There is no doubt she has multiple orgasms (based on the clean up required:smthumbup
> 
> So, your sex life has never been satisfactory, before or after marriage?
> 
> Your next paragraph describes our house very well - constant tension. As long as that is there she has zero desire to be romantic. Obviously you still do even under those conditions which is the big difference. Your last paragraph would indicate that it all comes down to him dealing with it differently and you continuing to do/say what you want. If I have that right, that's where I have a problem. Shouldn't both sides work to improve? I see that as still 'turning in the man card'. If she won't even try to stop nagging and belittling me, I'll never be able to change how I react to it. If there is at least acknowledgment of the issue and effort shown, I will be much more inclined to do the same. She's a perfectionist and is always right. She never says "I'm sorry" or "I was wrong".


Actually, it was me who initiated the change in our dynamic--by bringing back the sex first without asking him for anything in return (you can click the link in my sig if you are interested in how and why I did this). Doing that had an immediate affect on our level of intimacy that has allowed us to open up and discuss the issues that caused our problems and led to the unbearable atmosphere of tension, defensiveness, and emotional distance. It was nobody's "fault," but once you arrive in the place where you find yourself now with your wife, somebody has to be willing to initiate the change and be fully committed to doing whatever it takes, or nothing will happen. 

Did I think it was "fair" that I was doing all the work? At first I was fine with it, later I used therapy to help me deal with some of the conflicting feelings I was having. I didn't ask my husband to go to therapy -- I went and worked through emotions that were getting in the way of my goal of sustaining the intimacy we'd re established. I won't kid you: it was a ton of work, and it still is, for BOTH of us. 

When I spoke to my therapist about feeling resentful that I was "doing all the work" and "changing myself while he stayed the same" she pointed out that all I did was introduce a change to the dynamic, that I was actually still the same person who had gained insight and knowledge and was using it to my advantage. It helped me to think of it that way--I was benefitting on a personal level from this process. The more I worked on myself, the more my husband noticed, and the more he started to work on himself. Even if all we got out of the change was a better sex life, even if he never came to realize and appreciate all the work I was putting into keeping my libido healthy and strong, I would still benefit from learning how to banish my resentments and focus on the positive. I was going to get something out of this regardless of what my husband put into it. 

In the end, when you learn to control your resentments and not let them control you, you WIN. 

I'm guessing there is a TON of resentment swirling around your house. Start with learning to deal with your own. Don't let your wife's behavior be an excuse. If you think you can't do it alone, then seek out individual counseling. 

Incidentally, if your wife was here asking for advice, I'd tell her the same thing. You are in a toxic dynamic: COMMIT to doing something to change it. Take a good hard look at yourself FIRST.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

UserName1 said:


> No, that's not true. I dont even expect sex anymore. The answer is to minimize the damage. I can put up a fight and make the problem worse, or just go with it and let it be over sooner. When I say that I cannot accept the way she is talking to me, the response is "then do what I'm telling you and I wont have to say it again".


And what is your response to her when she treats you like that? 

She does not respect you, and you are not giving her any reason to.


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## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

Hicks said:


> So sleeping in your bed is of utomst importance, becuase you sleeping in a chair speaks to who dominates the marrage


Ahhh, in 7 pages of posts nobody has answered WHY I should move back to the bed if sex was not part of the equation. Until now - thank you! So even if neither one of sleeps well and are tired/cranky, its still worth it for the message it sends? Just making sure I got it right before trying


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

Effort always counts but if the other person is not meeting you halfway then what's the point? That's why it's a marriage.....it's a two way street. Two people involved and not one. 
This is why my faith in humanity continually diminishes. If you let them they will *hit on your head!


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

UserName1 said:


> Ahhh, in 7 pages of posts nobody has answered WHY I should move back to the bed if sex was not part of the equation. Until now - thank you! So even if neither one of sleeps well and are tired/cranky, its still worth it for the message it sends? Just making sure I got it right before trying


I can't help but note that you seem to look for every excuse not to change things. People have given lots of suggestions. You given reasons why not to do them. It is unclear you have read the books or threads that have been suggested. 

So what is the issue? What you are doing now is not working, and you can't make her do anything. So why are you so resistant to do anything to change the dynamic?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

UserName1 said:


> Ahhh, in 7 pages of posts nobody has answered WHY I should move back to the bed if sex was not part of the equation. Until now - thank you! So even if neither one of sleeps well and are tired/cranky, its still worth it for the message it sends? Just making sure I got it right before trying


OP, I don't mean to bust your balls, but the fact that this needs to be laid out to you after all the previous posts telling you to stop being a doormat sort of makes me think that you're not understanding the messages that your behavior is sending to your wife. You've basically ceded control of your marriage to her. So why shouldn't she boss you around? You're asking for it, IMO. 

And I don't think she's happy being the boss, either. In fact, she sounds downright miserable.


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> OP, I don't mean to bust your balls, but the fact that this needs to be laid out to you after all the previous posts telling you to stop being a doormat sort of makes me think that you're not understanding the messages that your behavior is sending to your wife. You've basically ceded control of your marriage to her. So why shouldn't she boss you around? You're asking for it, IMO.
> 
> And I don't think she's happy being the boss, either. In fact, she sounds downright miserable.


AMEN!:lol: Again...if you let them they will *hit on your head!


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## RaiderGirl (Jul 3, 2013)

Cyclist said:


> Oh man I have been there.....
> 
> MY GOD why cant they understand !!!!!!
> 
> If I could just come up with a solution, a pill, a 60 minute session, a video, SOMETHING that would let a wife know what we are truly thinking and what we truly need. It would be bigger than viagra and on every shelf like p90x


They know . They just dont suffer any consequence thus make no effort.


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## RaiderGirl (Jul 3, 2013)

Third Option. The book Mindful Action Plan by Athol Kay. There is a forum and coaching too. I seen it work. It will revive your marriage without begging, pleading, analyzing, bargaining...just a simple plan. I have no vested interest in this only that I have seen it work . Good luck.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

RaiderGirl said:


> They know . They just dont suffer any consequence thus make no effort.


If you've never been a woman who was not having sex with her husband for some long standing reason of your own, how the heck can YOU say what they know or don't know or whether they suffer or not?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Well, regarding sleeping in your bed.
The thought process should not be "this will make things worse".

The thought process is where do you WANT to sleep, and do you believe that married people should sleep together.

And by the way, if you do decide to go back to the bed, you have to make it clear that it is her choice to stay there or sleep somewhere else.

But I see no path to a sexual marriage that does not involve you reclaiming your place of resepct in the martial bed.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

But, I don't think that it needs to be move #1.

Move #1 is to figure out what her needs are, and stop allowing yourself to get criticized.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> If you've never been a woman who was not having sex with her husband for some long standing reason of your own, how the heck can YOU say what they know or don't know or whether they suffer or not?



Not if the lack of sex is occurring under their terms...


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## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I can't help but note that you seem to look for every excuse not to change things. People have given lots of suggestions. You given reasons why not to do them. It is unclear you have read the books or threads that have been suggested.
> 
> So what is the issue? What you are doing now is not working, and you can't make her do anything. So why are you so resistant to do anything to change the dynamic?


Sorry Tall guy if that's how it comes across. I do want changes, but I also have known this women for over 20 years and know that some of the suggestions here would be an earthquake - that cant be done hastily. There has been a fair amount of differing opinions that I need to wade through too. Some of it is expected, some of it is very foreign to me and hard to get my mind around. Honestly, probably a lack of self confidence as well (that I'm even capable of making these huge changes and doing them right). Sorry, but thats just how I'm wired. "Measure twice, cut once" To your other question about books, I just bought No more Mr Nice Guy e-book today. I cant buy every one people have suggested-money is super tight.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm far more careful than that and still took my own advise. The objective of paying back in kind is simple - do upon others as they do upon you. This obviously blows away any chance of compromise but at the same time levels the playing field.

If they care about saving the marriage they'll ask wtf is going on and you will meekly point out the biblical quote of an eye for an eye.

If they don't care to leave they will have to develop a pretty thick skin to cope with the fireworks.

You can't negotiate under those conditions. She knows it and you know it.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

UserName1 said:


> Sorry Tall guy if that's how it comes across. I do want changes, but I also have known this women for over 20 years and know that some of the suggestions here would be an earthquake - that cant be done hastily.


This is the result of 20 years. It will take time to fix. It will also cause her some real discomfort. You can't let that stop you. The critical first step is respect. Without that, there will be no change.



> There has been a fair amount of differing opinions that I need to wade through too. Some of it is expected, some of it is very foreign to me and hard to get my mind around. Honestly, probably a lack of self confidence as well (that I'm even capable of making these huge changes and doing them right).
> Sorry, but thats just how I'm wired. "Measure twice, cut once"


You absolutely can do this. Don't think otherwise. But you will fail at times. You are human and that is what we do. But don't let that stop you. Learn from your mistakes and move forward in your growth.



> To your other question about books, I just bought No more Mr Nice Guy e-book today. I cant buy every one people have suggested-money is super tight.


Understandable. The Married Man's Sex Life has a blog as does NMMNG. Check this Forum for $h!t/fitness tests. All good resources for (free) advice. Plus you have lots of bright folks (and me) that can help.

It is a marathon, not a sprint. Rome was not built in a day. Slow and steady wins the race. Whatever reaches you, the point is this will take time and work. Be patient and persistent.


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## RaiderGirl (Jul 3, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> If you've never been a woman who was not having sex with her husband for some long standing reason of your own, how the heck can YOU say what they know or don't know or whether they suffer or not?


 I do understand and know of women and men that do not have sex with their mates for legitmate reasons such as illness, infidelity, violence. However most of the sexless marriages on this forum are not in that situation. 
If you are I am sorry to hear that. 

But surely you know that women in particular use sex as reward or punishment and bribery.

I do know women that throw a bone once a week and call it good. My own friends talk trash like Well its his Birthday so I have to do the annual obligatory BJ. Can you imagine how this feels to their men? The husband is supremely unsatisfied but the wife knows he wont/cant leave there is no motivation to change anything. I detest women like that and frankly I wish their pussies would rot and fall off .
Now having said all that let me add that if my husband were an ass I would not f**K him either but he would know why and I would probably be banging the neighbor. ( just kidding , my neighbor is 80).


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

(sigh...)

No raider, I'm not in that situation.

But I know that I can't predict or say what the reasons are for any particular woman *WHO ISN'T ME* to not want to have sex with her husband. And I know you can't either.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's a really messed up situation of miscommunication on top of resentment on top of outlandish expectations. 

Most of the low sex marriages are this way because people do not communicate. It's all about the kids, the office, the in laws, the chores, etcetera but never about the marriage.

People get in their comfort zone, too, and thanks to a couple generations of conservatism and centuries of prudish attitude sex becomes a has been. 

Then add the eternal sex as power play behaviors that plague a lot of marriages because adults can't or won't communicate. 

Of course, to add insult to injury we also have to deal with impossible work schedules and career expectations... It's a miracle anyone over the age of 20 gets laid.

How to fix? Beats me. Improve sex ed, improve attitudes towards sex, reduce stress, get people to communicate, and maybe in a couple generations we may see results.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

john117 said:


> It's a really messed up situation of miscommunication on top of resentment on top of outlandish expectations.
> 
> Most of the low sex marriages are this way because people do not communicate. It's all about the kids, the office, the in laws, the chores, etcetera but never about the marriage.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

I also wanted to add that there is a huge gulf between how we raise boys and how we raise girls. There were studies done regarding how we treat a male infant vs. a female infant. Most people will cuddle the female more than the male, we handle boys differently than we do girls. However, the female infant and male infant need the same amount of loving care so they can grow to be completely competent and loving adults. Girls are handled with more caresses and gentleness than the boys, which are handled more roughly. Girls are praised more for looking cute, boys are praised for being smart and strong. 

I was a girl who got all A's in school, however I was still judged for my looks and weight. I had a male classmate who was more sensitive and intuitive, he was bullied for not "being a man" and "acting like a punk". Males and females need to be treated the same because they come out of the womb with the same needs for love, nurturing and affection. However, we starve boys of the care they desperately need.

Maybe if we change this, boys will grow into men who do not rely on sex to fill that emotional void created by lack of loving care. And girls will grow more assertive, and they will love their bodies and all of its functions (menses, etc). There is such a huge gulf in relationships, men lean one way to get their needs met and women lean another way to get their needs met. I think that both men and women have the same libido, but one is suppressed (women) and the other one is used to compensate for the lack of care in early childhood (men). Once we equalize how we rear children, these problems will be solved in the next 2 generations.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

At the bottom of the pile lies the root cause - sex is demonized and weaponized instead of being taken like the natural function of expressing love and intimacy that it is. 

It's the corporate equivalent of layoffs. It's an easy choice to withhold sex or lay off hundreds because something ELSE is the issue. And of course with stereotypes it's hard to get the two sides talking.. One side decided unilaterally and that's it....


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

UserName1 said:


> I'm not saying that ONLY she should change, but that it takes two. Is that so wrong?
> 
> 
> So you're saying that if you walk in the door and are greeted with criticisms, anger, bad mood, etc. that you yourself can just smile, sweet talk, give a hug, be happy as a lark and feel the world is a beautiful place? You can be 'happy' in that environment? I cant get my head around that at all. Maybe some would say to walk away and take a time-out. Then that leaves her alone making dinner, attending to the 3 kids, etc and then she's twice as irate! Please tell me how YOU would handle the situation described above and how your wife would respond to your actions. Give me practical situational suggestions please


No but you do not have to respond in kind either, ignore her give her some space, whatever. When she is calmer talk to her. 

But eventually you will have to make her believe that you can't live like that and that the options are going to be improve or you will eventually have to leave. Give her a time frame -"I want to make this marriage work but if we can't make progress over the next 6 months than I think it would be best if we separated."


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Of course that is unless you would rather live like that rather than be separated or divorced.


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## soulsearch (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: Re: Near the end of my rope...another sexless marriage thread*



techmom said:


> :iagree:
> There is such a huge gulf in relationships, men lean one way to get their needs met and women lean another way to get their needs met. I think that both men and women have the same libido, but one is suppressed (women) and the other one is used to compensate for the lack of care in early childhood (men).


interesting. the physical act of sex is very important to me, as is being sexually desired by my wife. I mention that because growing up, my parents were very unaffectionate. even hugs from them were rare and awkward. definitely a possible explanation in my case.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Yes, I guess we really do not understand how much of our behavior is nature and how much is nurture.

Anyway, if divorce is not on the table than you can still try to improve conditions. There just may not be any strong motivation on her part. I doubt that she is expecting anything of you other than half the work required to raise the kids. 

If this is the case I would say that you should try to be the more adaptable person and find ways to work around her. 

Try to cut the apple the way she wants (because you probably do not actually care how it is cut yourself)


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The key to success in such a marriage (or "marriage") is a careful mix of indifference, manipulation, and calculation. Basically the "partner" feels they get what they need from the marriage so there is no incentive to change... 

Plan ahead to maximize your gains and that's it. It should not come down to that but in the event it does simply playing to your "partner"s tune is not a good idea.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

UserName1 said:


> In all honesty, the answer is both yes and no. I provide for the family, do all the family events, help chauffeur kids all over, help with dishes, put my laundry away, maintain the house/yard, don't go out at night with the guys, and so on. Where I lack is the small 'romantic' gestures. And why? Again it comes down to rejection. I come home and she's too busy for a hug, not feeling well, grouchy, whatever. I offer to help and she either says no or *****es for doing it all wrong. I peeled an apple the other night and had to listen to how I don't do it right. I do the dishes and get scolded for putting a pan in the wrong place. On and on and on. Its everything, everyday. Not only does that put up a barrier to closeness, after a while ya just dont care anymore. I'm sorry, but with all that nagging the last thing I feel like is offering a romantic gesture. Its like getting kicked below the belt and coming back for more for 18 years.


Feel for you. My wife is a lot like this, although she has gotten a bit better since I started pushing back some. She would constantly complain that I wasn't filling the dishwasher correctly, wasn't cleaning the kids' poopy diapers correctly, wasn't driving correctly, etc, and to avoid conflict and to show that I'm the reasonable one, I wouldn't say anything, but it didn't work too well. I do stay home to watch the kids so she can go out, and I honestly don't mind, as it's much less stressful when she's not home. A lot of my wife's issues are due to immaturity (she's very immature and insecure, and takes it out on me)

Now, this hasn't improved our sex life at all (we never have sex, as sex is too much work in her mind), and I still get pissed off when she gets bossy and naggy, but she is somewhat better now and will acknowledge that she flies off the deep end (once, she left something at the babysitters house, and got mad at me when I couldn't find it. She told a friend that she was mad at me, and the friend asked her why she was mad at Charlie, as she's the one that lost the item). 

Advice - learn to push back when she's being unreasonable (I'm still a work in progress on this, but am better than before). Also, I try to show that I don't get rattled by things (my wife will get upset over little stuff, while if she does something wrong, I don't get mad about it), as I'm trying to show that little things aren't worth getting all worked up about.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ChargingCharlie said:


> Feel for you. My wife is a lot like this, although she has gotten a bit better since I started pushing back some. She would constantly complain that I wasn't filling the dishwasher correctly, wasn't cleaning the kids' poopy diapers correctly, wasn't driving correctly, etc, and to avoid conflict and to show that I'm the reasonable one, I wouldn't say anything, but it didn't work too well. I do stay home to watch the kids so she can go out, and I honestly don't mind, as it's much less stressful when she's not home. A lot of my wife's issues are due to immaturity (she's very immature and insecure, and takes it out on me)
> 
> Now, this hasn't improved our sex life at all (we never have sex, as sex is too much work in her mind), and I still get pissed off when she gets bossy and naggy, but she is somewhat better now and will acknowledge that she flies off the deep end (once, she left something at the babysitters house, and got mad at me when I couldn't find it. She told a friend that she was mad at me, and the friend asked her why she was mad at Charlie, as she's the one that lost the item).
> 
> Advice - learn to push back when she's being unreasonable (I'm still a work in progress on this, but am better than before). Also, I try to show that I don't get rattled by things (my wife will get upset over little stuff, while if she does something wrong, I don't get mad about it), as I'm trying to show that little things aren't worth getting all worked up about.


Again, I read about this sort of dynamic that is so eerily similar to how my marriage was for ten years and I just want to beg the men to go to MMSLP and DO IT. 

And I'm the badly behaving wife, by the way . . .


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> Again, I read about this sort of dynamic that is so eerily similar to how my marriage was for ten years and I just want to beg the men to go to MMSLP and DO IT.
> 
> And I'm the badly behaving wife, by the way . . .


Yep, forgot to mention that your description of your marriage sounds like us. She would nag and ***** while I walk on eggshells dreading coming home because the kids are whiny and she's mad at me because they're whiny and she can't get anything done. 

Now, she has gotten better, but there are times when she will revert back, and I make a conscious effort to push back, but not too far (I try to watch that I don't say something I shouldn't, but want to make her aware that her behavior isn't acceptable). 

Like the OP, she would say things like "I'll just do it myself" and I would let her do it herself, and she would ***** that she couldn't get anything done. She pulled something like this last week, and I told her no, I will do it. She let me do it, and admitted later (not directly, but in a backhand way) that she was over the line. 

Still looking to get her sex drive up to par, but one thing at a time...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ChargingCharlie said:


> Still looking to get her sex drive up to par, but one thing at a time...


My husband's response to my behavior is absolutely key to my desire for him. My drive is fine, but if he's turning me off by constantly retreating from me, then I'll deal with my sexual urges in other ways. As time goes on, he gets more comfortable with not automatically "chameleoning" my mood. In other words, he keep his good mood even if mine is negative, which brings me out of mind much faster. Why? Because I'm able to focus on dealing with what has me down in the first place. Piling one pissy mood on top of another is never a good idea . . .


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Again, I read about this sort of dynamic that is so eerily similar to how my marriage was for ten years and I just want to beg the men to go to MMSLP and DO IT.
> 
> And I'm the badly behaving wife, by the way . . .



MMSL may be too mild for some partners... "Oh he is not bothering me more time for FarmVille "

Confrontation helps - eventually she shuts down and all is quiet...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> MMSL may be too mild for some partners... "Oh he is not bothering me more time for FarmVille "
> 
> Confrontation helps - eventually she shuts down and all is quiet...


Doubtless it doesn't work for every couple--I think I'm pretty careful to say that. However, it worked so well for my marriage and I so commonly see similar marital dynamics described here, that I'd feel remiss in not suggesting it as a possible way to return happiness and balance and SEX to a those marriages. After all, that seems to be what most posters are seeking. I think few people just want to learn how to accept and survive in a dysfunctional marriage _before_ seeking something better.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> My husband's response to my behavior is absolutely key to my desire for him. My drive is fine, but if he's turning me off by constantly retreating from me, then I'll deal with my sexual urges in other ways. As time goes on, he gets more comfortable with not automatically "chameleoning" my mood. In other words, he keep his good mood even if mine is negative, which brings me out of mind much faster. Why? Because I'm able to focus on dealing with what has me down in the first place. Piling one pissy mood on top of another is never a good idea . . .


Good point about piling one pissy mood on top of another. That's what I'm trying to do. I want to show her that it's not worth getting worked up about things, and to be fair, she is getting better, but not all the way there. 

I don't think my wife has any sexual urges. She never masturbates (I can say that with near certainty), and never has any thoughts about sex except to state that sex is too much work. For now, if I have any urges, I take them out in the shower. In my mind, no point in having sex with someone that doesn't want to have it and is only doing it to say that she did it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Perceived detachment via MMSL etc works assuming the partner actually gives a hoot about the relationship and just needs a corrective nudge or hint. 

A lot of the horror stories we hear on TAM are well past that, pretty much into divorce or else territory.

GettingIt's husband must have been a saint to not escalate it for a decade if memory serves right. Escalating it via increased threats, detachment, 180, warfare, and the like does not fix the relationship obviously but some methods are better than others in ensuring things don't fall thru the cracks and the disfunction becomes the new standard...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Perceived detachment via MMSL etc works assuming the partner actually gives a hoot about the relationship and just needs a corrective nudge or hint.
> 
> Yes, and going all "scorched earth" as a first response is overkill and puts nails in the marriage coffin.
> 
> ...


He did escalate, detach, and threaten , and yes the mood was one of warfare in our house. But women like me are tough--we just do our own version of the 180 and find happiness elsewhere. What he wasn't seeing was his own contribution to the dynamic, and was therefore waiting for me to make a move. Unfortunately, it took me ten years to do so. 

Frankly, we didn't understand our own psycho/sexual dynamic. I dare say many couples do not--it's complex and fraught territory and detachment is often difficult if not impossible from within the throes of conflict. 

I do think my husband is a saint. For a HD man to come out of those years able and eagerly willing to work on things as much as he has . . . well, it is a testament to his character. 

Also telling is his eschewing of this forum. He gave it a try, but he said he found it too full of bitterness and self pity to be of any productive use to him. So, you might be right after all, John, the self-diagnosed "end stage" cases do often end up here. I just hate to think that a new poster thinks that "there is no hope" is always the case. That's one of the things that keeps me around.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It better be full of bitterness and the like - but that's how you get to learn you're not alone. If everyone's marriage was sitcom perfect we would be having debates on cake frosting recipes and BBQ sauces.

Like many health issues - and make no mistake it is - people wait forever to seek intervention.... So the five or ten year shadow of a marriage that shows up on TAM could be avoided if intervention happened at year 1 or 2...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> It better be full of bitterness and the like - but that's how you get to learn you're not alone. If everyone's marriage was sitcom perfect we would be having debates on cake frosting recipes and BBQ sauces.


Yes, I think TAM is a place where frustration can safely be vented, and sometimes that in itself is a worthwhile exercise. That's why I don't react very much to posters who seem over the top in their comments. There is a lot of frustration and hurt simmering here; I take things with that grain of salt. Agree about not feeling so alone--and it helped me understand that my husband is very much like many men in his wants and needs. Believe it or not, I didn't understand the emotional needs of men in general very well. I've been with him since I was 19; he's the only long term relationship I've ever had. I am a much better wife when I come here and see what could have become of him. I come here and learn what NOT to do, as much as I learn what I should do. 



john117 said:


> Like many health issues - and make no mistake it is - people wait forever to seek intervention.... So the five or ten year shadow of a marriage that shows up on TAM could be avoided if intervention happened at year 1 or 2...


Again, I agree with this as an observation, but I don't know how much help there is for the reality of it. People live and THEN they learn, not vise versa. Digging out from beneath marital problems is doable and worthwhile, although YMMW depending on the relative levels of commitment, perseverance, and humility of the participants.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Any help is better than none. MMSL 180 warfare NMMNG and everything else simply turn off communication between the couple, establish the legitimacy of roommates instead of a married couple, and reward bad behavior (oh, she won't have sex more often with me, what better than to act aloof and not caring)

None of the above, and MC or IC as well will fix anything that people don't want fixed... Early intervention may work before long term resentments settle in...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Any help is better than none. MMSL 180 warfare NMMNG and everything else simply turn off communication between the couple, establish the legitimacy of roommates instead of a married couple, and reward bad behavior (oh, she won't have sex more often with me, what better than to act aloof and not caring)
> 
> None of the above, and MC or IC as well will fix anything that people don't want fixed... Early intervention may work before long term resentments settle in...


I don't think MMSL et. al. turn communication off; I think one of the tenets of MMSL, for example, it is to communicate very clearly and precisely without getting pissy. It might not work for every struggling marriage, but it's successful with a certain subset. And sometimes it is best if used in conjunction with IC or MC. There really is no one size fits all.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Is there meaningful communication about important family and relationship issues during NMMNG or MMSL or just about whose turn it is to empty the dishwasher?

Such techniques have the dubious honor of being self fulfilling prophecies eventually I fear.

Detachment for the sake of implementing some mystery alphabet soup plan does lead to, duh, real detachment. That's where I am right now. I can't see a strategy that can bridge the rift and I'm not really eager to find one either.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Is there meaningful communication about important family and relationship issues during NMMNG or MMSL


:scratchhead: Why wouldn't there be???? 

I'm guessing it didn't work for you? *Shrug* Won't work for everyone, I suppose. My husband found it really useful, and the results for us have been great. I think because it's prescriptive--gives us a framework from which to approach problems when we're feeling at a loss. 

Sorry for the hijack, OP. MMSL, NMMNG . . . what ever the method with the long annoying acronym you might choose, I hope you can find a way to turn things around--for yourself at least, if not for your marriage.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The whole idea behind the listed methods is to provide signals or hints to one's partner without spilling the beans directly. Become "less available", focus on "self improvement", and the like. At best that's indirect communication. Not what a couple with a serious relationship issue needs in many cases.

To me they seem little different than "words with friends". Let's see, my wife has been rejecting me forever, let me ignore her completely and go bowling... 

It could work in some cases and I agree is worth trying but keep more serious non DIY methods on the table.


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## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

John117, I get what you are saying. Hard to grasp it all and see how it would work in real life. I'm reading a couple of the suggested books now, have read a zillion threads, etc. On one hand it seems best to find bits and pieces that seem most applicable and build your own system. On the other hand, it sounds like if you dont follow the program's tried-and-tested system in full you wont get the results you should/could. By nature I'm suspicious, detailed, a planner, etc. I'm also a christian. The harsh style of MMSL is challenging for me to read, but i'll keep at it and give it a fair shot before deciding its worth to my situation. There is no doubt that I have to change my Nice Guy syndrome and do it for ME. Its still hard to see where the balance is in these programs of being selfish and still being a good husband/dad. Hopefully it will start to clear up soon.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> The whole idea behind the listed methods is to provide signals or hints to one's partner without spilling the beans directly. Become "less available", focus on "self improvement", and the like. At best that's indirect communication. Not what a couple with a serious relationship issue needs in many cases.


Perhaps this is why NMMNG and MMSL worked so well for us--there is no issue of "spilling the beans." I know the approach he's taking to working on himself, and he knows the approach I'm taking to work on me. One of the things I had been unhappy about for years was my husband's unhappiness, and his hinging any improvements he needed to make on our sex life improving FIRST. It's hard to be attracted to someone who is unhappy, has no friends, no hobbies, no exercise, and is basically just living in limbo. I knew instinctively that I needed him to be happy with himself personally before I could be attracted to him. I pushed him for years to do the things that MMSL counsels without really knowing why. Anyway, in our relationship, actions do speak a lot louder than words. We are able to "discuss" an issue in our marriage for two hours without ever making any productive headway. 

I think as long as you end up improving yourself and not compromising your integrity and dignity, the method you choose matters little. Whether or not your marriage succeeds will depend much on whether your partner wants to work on things, but at the end of the day you have to look at yourself in the mirror and be happy with who you see.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt, the assumption here from my side is that things can be improved. Not to sound boastful here but the two things I feel I could improve have little bearing upon my marriage, and if they did, the quote about not belonging to any club that would have me as a member should apply.

I'm being very honest here (dear single TAM'ers please PM for marriage proposals :rofl: ). I'm at the top of my career, three college degrees, three decades with the same company, a good number of publications, a patent, I am a heck of a father, and a heck of a DIY guy. I am fun to be around, very extrovert, and never hesitate to speak my mind. I am polite, if caustic at times, and my use of colorful language and wild metaphors is very effective. 

My two "improvement areas" are in the weight dept and the ambition dept. I carry 25 extra pounds - pretty well - and my idea of ambition is European 35 hour work weeks versus 70 hour death march USA work weeks. The first is negotiable and fixable - I dropped 20 of the 25 lb before the Rapture - while the second is not. 

One could argue that my external immaturity could be an issue. But hey, I get done what needs to get done, and then some, far more than my contemporaries who simply count down the months to Florida, 

Soooooo, what exactly should I improve on? Go back to college and get another phd? Get a cashier job at Target? Learn how to do electrical work around the house? 

Unfortunately, past Rapture I go not see things getting any better regardless of whether I drop fifty pounds or work Foxconn hours. My issues with her are focused on what she does NOT want to do with ANYONE, not why. I could have Jack Welch's work ethic and money and Anderson Cooper's looks (long story) and still in her head emotional bonding and all that is for people under the age of 20. People in our age (50+) are not supposed to have feelings, emotions, sexuality, or anything of the kind. 

This type of thoughts, my friends, are not fixable... Not by DIY and likely not by MC or IC.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> GettingIt, the assumption here from my side is that things can be improved. Not to sound boastful here but the two things I feel I could improve have little bearing upon my marriage, and if they did, the quote about not belonging to any club that would have me as a member should apply.
> 
> I'm being very honest here (dear single TAM'ers please PM for marriage proposals :rofl: ). I'm at the top of my career, three college degrees, three decades with the same company, a good number of publications, a patent, I am a heck of a father, and a heck of a DIY guy. I am fun to be around, very extrovert, and never hesitate to speak my mind. I am polite, if caustic at times, and my use of colorful language and wild metaphors is very effective.
> 
> ...


That's all well and good . . . but I wasn't making any suggestions for your marriage. You have made it clear that you don't see a point in working on your marriage.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

John,

Before you are too old to enjoy sex you and your wife will have an opportunity to connect. You are a pretty together guy. Losing more weight is definitely doable. Much easier for men than women. Cut out carbs. Work out more. Be confident, happy (fake it till you make it) and put the moves on your wife in ways you haven't before. Listen to her more.

If she doesn't come round, apply 180. If she still doesn't wake up, then file for divorce and hand the papers. The key is not to wait until you cannot stand her. You should be able to say to her: "Sure, honey, I love you but you don't love me, so we have to part. Hurts me, too."

If she swears she'll change, you have time to see.

If she says she does not want divorce or sex, then ask her if you can have an open marriage. Who knows maybe she wants sex but not with you.


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## mitzi (Oct 8, 2013)

I posted a similar post on here only it's my husband that wont initiate anything and we would never have sex if it was up to him. People who care less about making love or "SEX" will tell you that your being foolish to even think about leaving because of that. However, many will say it's a big part of a relationship. Myself being one. I've always had a big sexual desire and now it's little to none and I'm going crazy so I feel your pain.


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