# Gut wrenching attraction to other women



## Lonelygent1977 (Feb 20, 2018)

Hey all
As you may have read in my previous posts I'm in a nearly sexless marriage bar a couple of days a month if im lucky whilst my other half is ovulating.
So most of the time I'm walking around like I'm on permanent viagra ready to go in a split second, I work in town and currently due to the heat most if not all the women are walking around with not alot on leaving nothing to the imagination and it's driving me insane knowing that I will never ever be able to get with a girl like that and I'm stuck with one women who would rather look at Facebook than show me the slightest desire.
I've read the books I'm currently implementing the sex life primer, getting myself in better shape whilst training for a higher paid job, hoping to turn some sort of attraction back on in my wife, but I'm not holding up much hope in that.

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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I don't recall your other posts, but have you and your wife had a serious discussion about how the lack of sex is destroying your marriage?

I would never want my husband to think of me as the person he was stuck with.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

The tone of "I hope my wife likes me again" needs to stop. It's horribly unattractive. Instead get in awesome shape and get your money situation in line so that you're just an overall better dude. If your wife comes along for the ride... great. If not... also great. 

The irony is that the better and more "attractive" you become, the less you will want your wife. You will realize that there is more to life than dancing like a clown in front of your spouse hoping they notice you.

*READ THIS:* https://dadstartingover.com/dissecting-dead-bedrooms/


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## Lonelygent1977 (Feb 20, 2018)

minimalME said:


> I don't recall your other posts, but have you and your wife had a serious discussion about how the lack of sex is destroying your marriage?
> 
> I would never want my husband to think of me as the person he was stuck with.


Yes we had a talk a few months ago, she said she was tired due to work and looking after the kids and that she needs to feel relaxed before she feels intimate and she likes spontaneous sex, so I've done everything I can to make her more relaxed foot rubs most of the housework, cooking every meal, massages our kids arnt baby's they are 10 and 13 so they take care of themselves, I've tried being spontaneous but it's normally..we have work..the kids are in the next room, we were mucking about in the shower together the other day she turned me on but said no to sex as she didn't want to get "messy" before work.
It's as though she dosent care about me I'm right at the bottom of the pile, it's got so bad for me where I'm so sexually frustrated that I'm contemplating an affair just to feel wanted and I could if I wanted a few old girlfriends have shown interest in me recently.

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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I'm very sorry, Lg. Although I was in a sexless marriage, I didn't have the testosterone you're dealing with. 

I do understand your frustration though.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Stop helping her with the housework, cooking, etc. Spend that time at the gym and rocking things at your job. If you guys get divorced then you won't be helping her around the house at all. Give her a taste of what that will be like.

It is not that cutting her off will get her in the mood. It won't. It is that cutting her off shows that you respect yourself enough not to be her doormat and punching bag.

The gym and the focus at work combined with the fear of losing you might trigger her to raise you to a higher slot on her priority list. Or might not. But if it doesn't, at least you have maximized your own attractiveness for when you go looking for her replacement.

Don't waste another minute kissing her behind. It never works for nice guys. Being nice and apologizing is how bad boys win their woman back after she found out he slept with her sister and her best friend. Nice guys rekindle interest by being selfish. Women want a nice balance of alpha and beta. Men see progress by being the opposite of what you currently are "too much" of.

Yes, it really is that simple. Wish I had realized that 25 years ago.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> The irony is that the better and more "attractive" you become, the less you will want your wife. You will realize that there is more to life than dancing like a clown in front of your spouse hoping they notice you.


Another irony is that if you keep yourself more attractive, your wife might never have lost interest at all.

If you don't want your wife when you become more attractive; then that means that you probably never really wanted your wife in the first place. You settled for her because you thought that she was all that you could get.

Otherwise, when you get "more attractive", you'd still only have eyes for your wife. That love would fade if she was unresponsive to the "more attractive" new you.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> Don't waste another minute kissing her behind. It never works for nice guys. * Being nice and apologizing is how bad boys win their woman back after she found out he slept with her sister and her best friend. *Nice guys rekindle interest by being selfish. Women want a nice balance of alpha and beta. Men see progress by being the opposite of what you currently are "too much" of.
> 
> Yes, it really is that simple. Wish I had realized that 25 years ago.




You don't win any woman back after committing emotional atrocities like that. At least no woman with an atom of self respect.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

This is a prime example of WHY depriving your partner of their needs DOES make them vulnerable. No it doesn't "cause" them to cheat or make the cheating "not their fault." BUT yeah.....youtreat your spouse like crap or ignore them....they WILL be vulnerable. And that vulnerability IS on you.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Wait...if you are this miserable why are you trying to get her pregnant again???


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I sometimes wonder if people stuck in sexless marriages should intentionally develop porn addictions


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

uhtred said:


> I sometimes wonder if people stuck in sexless marriages should intentionally develop porn addictions


I don't think intentionally would be very good. But if you say no to your husband for months and years on end (and sex once a month IS saying no ladies), than you don't get to whine when you find out he is using porn.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

It's obvious that she has lost interest in you and possibly respect. It might be too late...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lonelygent1977 said:


> I'm stuck with one women who would rather look at Facebook than show me the slightest desire.


Have you seen those survival TV shows where some folks can easily start a fire in pouring rain with impossible tools, and then there are those folks that you give them dry wood and matches and they still can't get a fire started if their life depended on it. 

That is perhaps the best way to view your life right now. 

This is what you do.... Create a fake Facebook account as if you are a hot babe. Flirt with yourself using that account and be really aggressive about it! Complain to your wife that some other women is wanting it from you and show her your Facebook page demonstrating it. Then have this pretend person try and befriend your wife and make endless claims about how hot her husband is. 

There, I just gave you dry wood and matches! Good luck!!

Bad,
Badsanta


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Have you seen those survival TV shows where some folks can easily start a fire in pouring rain with impossible tools, and then there are those folks that you give them dry wood and matches and they still can't get a fire started if their life depended on it.
> 
> That is perhaps the best way to view your life right now.
> 
> ...


:laugh::grin2: >


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> There, I just gave you dry wood and matches!



As well as a fast track ticket to a mental asylum  who has time for this?



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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Stop helping her with the housework, cooking, etc. Spend that time at the gym and rocking things at your job. If you guys get divorced then you won't be helping her around the house at all. Give her a taste of what that will be like.
> 
> It is not that cutting her off will get her in the mood. It won't. It is that cutting her off shows that you respect yourself enough not to be her doormat and punching bag.
> 
> ...


If you want to compeletly destroy marriage, do what Holdingontoit says.

If you want to be happily married in 10 years, man up and do what you know is right:

1. Be the best father and husband you can be.
2. Keep pulling your weight at home with the chores. Don't mope, or be angry about it. Being a father and husband are your jobs!
3. Take care of yourself: gym, friends, spiritual life, etc.
4. STOP looking at other women!! When you see flesh coming toward you, look away and think about the marriage you want with your wife. STOP daydreaming about other women!!!
5. Tell your wife how badly you are suffering from not having sex. Tell her that you will not be able to stay forever in a sexless marriage. Eventually, you will divorce her to get the love, both emotional and physical, that you need.
6. DO NOT CHEAT!
7. Get marriage counseling with your wife.
8. Buy His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters by Willard Harley. Read them with our wife.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Araucaria said:


> If you want to compeletly destroy marriage, do what Holdingontoit says.
> 
> If you want to be happily married in 10 years, man up and do what you know is right:
> 
> ...


This might work if she hasn't fallen out of love with him, or has lost all her respect for him or she sees him as a useless, whiny, immature doormat...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Araucaria said:


> If you want to compeletly destroy marriage, do what Holdingontoit says.
> 
> If you want to be happily married in 10 years, man up and do what you know is right:
> 
> ...


This isn't about "getting sex." This is about being a man of integrity whose integrity isn't dependent on OTHER PEOPLE's behavior. Real men have character even when it is tough.

I did have to bold the last suggestion, however, as it is Marriage Builders  Lots of people know about the first book, but you pretty much have to be on the forum to hear much about the second


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Why are you trying to get your wife pregnant!? Good grief. You are not thinking right.

You and your wife both work, but you are doing all the household chores? Did I get that right? Your wife is exhausted, but you are doing more than she is and her excuse for no sex is that she's tired? Am I getting this right?

Look, if you are both working full time, you should both be doing equal household chores including yard, vehicles, dishes, cooking, etc., but your children are old enough that they should also be doing chores. It should be a group effort to maintain a home that you all enjoy living in.

How long has this lack of sex been going on?



Lonelygent1977 said:


> I've tried being spontaneous but it's normally..we have work..the kids are in the next room, we were mucking about in the shower together the other day she turned me on but said no to sex as she didn't want to get "messy" before work.


What on earth! She is playing with you. This looks to me like she is purposefully teasing you. How can she be worried about getting messy while you’re in the shower! That makes zero sense. That she would get you all turned on and then drop you like that is purposeful and seems to me that she is trying to humiliate you. Is she angry with you about something? Does she do this sort of thing often?

After reading your posts on this thread, this entire scenario is messed up. How your wife treats you. How you respond to it. The bizarre lack of power balance in your relationship. The problem in your marriage goes much deeper than sex. Your wife is contemptuous towards you. Find out why. Stop being her doormat and get a hold of yourself.


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## seadoug105 (Jan 12, 2018)

Araucaria said:


> If you want to compeletly destroy marriage, do what Holdingontoit says.
> 
> If you want to be happily married in 10 years, man up and do what you know is right:
> 
> ...



You must really think low of men in general. You seem to see us as sad moping who don't contribute at home. And that their JOB is to provide for the want, needs, and welfare of their family; but to hell with their own wants and needs. However the wife JOB is to provide for the want, needs, and welfare of the children & herself... What about her husband? Marriage is a partnership. Right? So why are one person's wants/needs more important than the others? Why should should one persons want/needs have to be addressed before the other? Its not a barter system...


It is obvious he is here seeking guidance to improve the situation because what he has been doing (much of what you suggested) isn't working...


So the advice here is do what you are already doing... just keep doing it...

Threaten her... 

Oh, yeah and have story time with her... (albeit with books that can be helpful to you marriage)


Few problems here.... "They say" the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result... So is one partially/mostly insane if they slightly tweak what are doing and do it expecting a different result???

In the end all the effort is on the OP. All the pain is on the OP. All the control is with the wife.


In the end the answer that doesn't include "D" is somewhere in the middle....


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Avoid all the advice telling you to kiss your wife's ass more. It just won't work. If you need evidence of this, you can read a thousand stories in here where it didn't work. "I did more housework like she asked, and she still doesn't want me." A recurring theme.

Women are indoctrinated to believe that they are attracted to nice guys who help around the house and cry during chick flicks. They know that's how they're _supposed_ to think. When push comes to shove, they can't make themselves feel attraction for this kind of man. They instead prefer someone who is a bit aloof and reeks of confidence and independence. Some even take it to extremes with a "bad boy" fascination. Read the thousands of "I stay with him even though he abuses me" stories.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

seadoug105 said:


> You must really think low of men in general. You seem to see us as sad moping who don't contribute at home. And that their JOB is to provide for the want, needs, and welfare of their family;
> 
> I don't know where you got that idea. I think highly of men, just not boys in men's bodies. Real men take care of their families, and feel good about it, like he is doing. Read men are faithful to their wives even during tough times, or sex droughts. He's not actively cheating, but he is daydreaming about other women and seriously contemplating cheating. That is not what a real man does.
> 
> ...


No, I haven't recommended D. He came here asking for help with his marriage. There are steps he can take that may...I repeat, "may" help his marriage.

Until he has exhausted his options, and wife has been given the opportunity to know the seriousness of her actions change or not change I do not recommend divorce in OP's case.

You don't divorce from a lack of sex for a few months if you have not told your spouse how much you need sex, that it is a requirement.

I am just a poster on TAM, not a therapist, and definitely not God. Take what I say with a grain of salt, because I a giving an opinion. Even if my opinion is salted with years of reading on this forum and my own life experience, it is just an opinion.

OP, you need to weight everyone's opinions and decide which ones you respect and go from there.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> The irony is that the better and more "attractive" you become, the less you will want your wife. You will realize that there is more to life than dancing like a clown in front of your spouse hoping they notice you.


Very true. All of it.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Lonelygent1977 said:


> Yes we had a talk a few months ago, she said she was tired due to work and looking after the kids and that she needs to feel relaxed before she feels intimate and she likes spontaneous sex, so I've done everything I can to make her more relaxed foot rubs most of the housework, cooking every meal, massages our kids arnt baby's they are 10 and 13 so they take care of themselves, I've tried being spontaneous but it's normally..we have work..the kids are in the next room, we were mucking about in the shower together the other day she turned me on but said no to sex as she didn't want to get "messy" before work.
> It's as though she dosent care about me I'm right at the bottom of the pile, it's got so bad for me where I'm so sexually frustrated that I'm contemplating an affair just to feel wanted and I could if I wanted a few old girlfriends have shown interest in me recently.


Sir, lets face the reality here. Your W does not want to have sex with you or simply not at all. I'd remotely think you are in the pile other than a good paycheck. 

Reading what you have posted here concerning the shower with lead up to another let down...it is time for MC on a grand scale. 

I tell you, I would not put with that.


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

I got out. Best decision ever.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Don't look bro! LOL


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

A couple of times a month? I was lucky to get it every couple of months lol


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Evinrude58 said:


> Don't look bro! LOL


My husband was having lunch with a guy who was having serious marital issues. While waiting in line for their lunch the guy leered at a woman in the line who also had a child with her. He looked at my husband expecting him to do the same. My husband did not stare at her, but looked away.

While having lunch my husband told him that he shouldn't be leering at women, especially since he is married. He also told him that to be so obvious about how he was looking at her was disrespectful to her.

That picture you posted, Evinrude, is disgusting. Any man who would do that in the presence of his SO should be given a what for and dumped. Any man who would do that behind his SO's back should be dumped.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Lonelygent1977 said:


> Yes we had a talk a few months ago, she said she was tired due to work and looking after the kids and that she needs to feel relaxed before she feels intimate and she likes spontaneous sex, so I've done everything I can to make her more relaxed foot rubs most of the housework, cooking every meal, massages our kids arnt baby's they are 10 and 13 so they take care of themselves, I've tried being spontaneous but it's normally..we have work..the kids are in the next room, we were mucking about in the shower together the other day she turned me on but said no to sex as she didn't want to get "messy" before work.
> It's as though she dosent care about me I'm right at the bottom of the pile, it's got so bad for me where I'm so sexually frustrated that I'm contemplating an affair just to feel wanted and I could if I wanted a few old girlfriends have shown interest in me recently.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


Like many, I heard and heeded all the advice about women being open to more desire with a partner who respects her enough to help out.

Funny thing though, I was already doing more than my fair share. Nevertheless, for years, I years I did more and more and more and more. 

No change. 

Many will simply take all the extra benes and think nothing of it. My wife, to her credit, now feels bad that I had to carry so much of the load for so long. But even with that epiphany, there's zero impact on her desire level or remorse for all the lost years. 

What I'm saying here is don't buy into the "guys who help out are sexy" BS, and don't expect anything you do to amp up her desire. This is not a symmetrical situation: you can certainly do things to turn her off, but that doesn't also mean you can do things to turn her on. If she's not interested, she's not interested. 

Take care of yourself first. Be a good dad to your kids. Do everything you can do to enjoy whatever it is you enjoy in life outside of sex. Do all of this, but don't expect anything to change in your relationship. But if you really need sex and she's not going to provide it, don't cheat. Either extricate yourself from the marriage or accept the marriage. There is no viable middle ground. Just make your decision with eyes wide open and in full understanding of the consequences either way.


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

I am finding it very odd that more and more wives seem to be good with the "Roommate Marriage" thing...We have countless threads stated the SAME thing, over and over again. 

Now, I also find it surprising that the men in the marriage are doing all the same things...Back Rubs, More dishes, Cooking, Cleaning house. Basically pampering her 24/7. And the man is essentially told to sit down and behave like a good boy.

I never really see threads that the men acting like a prince and abstaining from sex in a marriage unless they have something else going on. It's not really a switch turned like it is with the Ladies...I mean sure, we have a few outliers, but the other seems to be up and running!

Is this a cultural shift in identities that now women in changing roles have even less use for their "men"? Or is it just men acting more in feminine roles "traditionally" that give this NEW AGE phenomenon gas?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I agree with doing that in front of your SO being disrespectful of her. 

But if an exceptionally beautiful person walks by in front of a man, and he happens to admire her beauty, is that wrong in your opinion if he's married? I'm not talking staring disrespectfully like this guy (I just thought the pic was funny, didn't mean to offend anyone), but just noticing a beautiful person.

I don't think it's wrong. I don't think it's disrespectful if it's not staring. And anyone who says they don't notice when a person is exceptionally beautiful of the opposite sex, when they are currently married, is a liar. It's just human nature.

Certainly it's a man's responsibility to keep his mind from lusting after any woman other than his wife, but noticing someone's beauty is not wrong, it just is what it is.

It's just my opinion. Others may disagree.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

LG, at what point do you love yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable? 

This does not (necessarily) mean divorce, but it does mean placing your wife last.

Right now, you are angry at yourself for continuing to serve her in the absence of reciprocation. 

Stop taking actions that lead to you resenting yourself. Stop projecting your anger at yourself onto your wife. Stop teaching her, through your actions, that it is okay to take you for granted.

You do that by stopping everything that you do for her specifically. Foot rubs? Getting her coffee or tea? Helping her open jars? Squashing spiders? 

None...Zip...Zilch...Zero...unless it is needed for the kids. 

Make this your new mantra:

"Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option."

Oh, and pregnancy should never be in the equation with her unless she can show over a sustained period (say two years or so) that she is interested in maintaining a sexual relationship with you. 

Start first by loving yourself.

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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> LG, at what point do you love yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable?
> 
> This does not (necessarily) mean divorce, but it does mean placing your wife last.
> 
> ...


I can't like this post enough! Dude, I was like you for a long time. IT DOESN'T WORK! FSJ is giving some great advice here, and take it from someone who was defacto celibate for over 10 years. Never again my friend, never again.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BarbedFenceRider said:


> I am finding it very odd that more and more wives seem to be good with the "Roommate Marriage" thing...We have countless threads stated the SAME thing, over and over again.
> 
> Now, I also find it surprising that the men in the marriage are doing all the same things...Back Rubs, More dishes, Cooking, Cleaning house. Basically pampering her 24/7. And the man is essentially told to sit down and behave like a good boy.
> 
> ...


Is women being more open to the roommate arrangement really a trend? Not arguing, just curious. What evidence supports this? 

It just seems to me that, as society has changed to allow women to be sexual beings rather than cooks and baby makers, that openness should remove any stigma associated with actually enjoying sex rather than considering it a wifely duty, thus expanding the sexual part of a relationship. 

Is that not happening? 

I'm especially curious to hear what some of our modern, more enlightened and self confident women would say?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I sometimes read another forum I used to frequent way back in the day. There was a thread started on emotional needs. The man who started the thread basically asked if we should take emotional needs at face value or are there times that the emotional need is excessive or not healthy. I read it as he was trying to find evidence to dispute his wife's needs. Apparently so did the vets on that forum, because they came in and told him it wasn't a spouse's job to pick apart their partner's needs. That all needs are legitimate. That one cannot have too many emotional needs. Basically, "Hey buddy, it isn;t your job to rationalize away your wife's needs. Hop to meeting them!"

THEN.....THEN

He reveals that it is HIS needs he worried about. He really really needs sex with his wife every day, and she is fine with less than once a week.

The shift was so fast I got whiplash. Suddenly, no, that was silly, he didn't NEED sex every day. The tired "women need two things to desire sex yada yada...." Article about how a man can get the sex he wants - i.e. be perfect and wait for your wife to want you.

It was almost laughable how quick the veteran hens circled the wagons lol


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> As well as a fast track ticket to a mental asylum  who has time for this?


While we are on the topic of going away to a mental asylum and mixing that with having a gut wrenching attraction to other women, how old does this ghost look to you?










Perhaps the OP might want to try moving into an old haunted house! And just enjoy himself...

All joking aside if the wife is busy with facebook, I bet the OP would really enjoy binging on American Horror Story on Netflix. If you can't fix your problems, at least having an enjoyable escape from reality can be fun to distract from the pain. 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> I agree with doing that in front of your SO being disrespectful of her.
> 
> But if an exceptionally beautiful person walks by in front of a man, and he happens to admire her beauty, is that wrong in your opinion if he's married? I'm not talking staring disrespectfully like this guy (I just thought the pic was funny, didn't mean to offend anyone), but just noticing a beautiful person.
> 
> ...


My mom had a facility sometimes for bluntness, and while largely traditional, was never one to hid the facts of life from her kids, in hopes that they would grow up with adequate knowledge to understand the world in which they lived.

She once said of my dad "If he's no longer able to notice such things, he's of no use to me!"

It was, of course, an exaggeration, but the point was clear.


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## Lonelygent1977 (Feb 20, 2018)

Thanks for all the advice everybody, were not trying for a baby I had a vasectomy 8 years ago, funnily enough in a bid to have more sex ie taking away the fear of unplanned pregnancy, it didn't work lol.
We have been together a long time 22 years 16 married, she was only 16 and I was 18 she was a virgin when we met, she was very shy and timid as her parents were very controlling and she was adopted and an only child so she was spoiled.
I do feel bad that she spent all her younger years with me when she should have been having fun with men, but she's always said in the past I could have dumped you if I wanted that.
I am working hard to get fitter I'm no slob I'm 6ft4in and 220lbs and I have a very active job, my wife on the other hand is only 5ft2in and has in recent years gained a few pounds, which dosent bother me in the slightest, I love her and I can only see the pretty girl I started dating 22 years ago.
Were going on holiday for 2 weeks tomorrow and funnily enough she does turn into a sex kitten when we are away, obviously due to no stress of work or chores.

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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

Lonelygent1977 said:


> Thanks for all the advice everybody, were not trying for a baby I had a vasectomy 8 years ago, funnily enough in a bid to have more sex ie taking away the fear of unplanned pregnancy, it didn't work lol.
> We have been together a long time 22 years 16 married, she was only 16 and I was 18 she was a virgin when we met, she was very shy and timid as her parents were very controlling and she was adopted and an only child so she was spoiled.
> I do feel bad that she spent all her younger years with me when she should have been having fun with men, but she's always said in the past I could have dumped you if I wanted that.
> I am working hard to get fitter I'm no slob I'm 6ft4in and 220lbs and I have a very active job, my wife on the other hand is only 5ft2in and has in recent years gained a few pounds, which dosent bother me in the slightest, I love her and I can only see the pretty girl I started dating 22 years ago.
> ...


If the bolded is true, then that would be quite different than most of the other situations here, it really would be tied to items that can get resolved and are fixable.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

@BarbedFenceRider: yes. I'm convinced it is a cultural thing, but mostly in western culture, where a much higher percentage of men are becoming more docile/effeminate by the switch of traditional roles for men from being the provider head of household to either just a partner or being less equal to the woman on top of social agendas were the pressure is for males to bend over it, or you are ostracized as some sort of horrible anomaly. Plus the fact that more and more men are raised in an environment where there is not a male role, just females.

Not wonder today's young females are taking the lead and being the more secure and aggressive, while the young men are just so confused and intimidated. Why do you think that western women more and more are preferring men from other cultures/races? Why do we see more and more western men doing the foreign bride thing? The women are seeking a more manly man, the guys, that's the only way they can get a woman. I've seen it countless of time with my own eyes. 

Another thing that really reels me is the use of "Nice guy", why can we call it like it is: a weak, sometimes pathetic guy that doesn't has the guts to do what needs to be done.

We see it so much in the sex department where the guys just pathetically suffer and complain in an ineffective way that the only thing it does is to annoy the woman, and after a time they lose respect for the man. Why shouldn't they when all they are confronted with is a toothless dog barking.

Check the OPs in these forums, a high percentage of them when confronted with the reality of things by the posts of people responding with advice, specially if it is direct 2x4s they can not endure it. They stop posting and leave. Most likely they are too ashame of themselves, and/or are so cowards that they can't read anymore what's being told in their faces.

I'll REPEAT myself one more time: when my first wife cut me off from sex, three months later I was gone. Best decision ever, my actual wife never refuses me.

Funny story about no refusing: when I was young and working as a dishwasher in a Italian restaurant, one night after we had just closed, the boss shows up and ask us: can you guys stay longer? The Gambinos just showed up and I can't refuse them. I'll never forget that one.


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

So, you are in your 40s? Right? And you are hoping for intimacy on some future vacation? Here is what is telling. She was a virgin but you led a active sexual lifestyle when younger. But you thought it was a SHAME for not having multiple partners and tons of sex?

Also this is a kind of weird statement you wrote of her : "but she's always said in the past I could have dumped you if I wanted that." Maybe you could explain that further....


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm especially curious to hear what some of our modern, more enlightened and self confident women would say?


It can be confusing at times, but I think it's awesome to have a choice.

Personally, I enjoy being submissive with an assertive man, but occasionally, it'd be fun to tie him to a chair. 

And with minor exceptions, if ever in a sexual relationship again, I wouldn't want to be asked for sex ('just take' is my attitude), so the roommate situation wouldn't be an issue.


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## seadoug105 (Jan 12, 2018)

A lot of people are gonna flip out on this one (some for content, some for length, and some for the TMI), but we as a couple are in a fare better place because of it…

Early in my marriage my wife had a group of friends that were a little full of themselves and felt they controlled men like puppet masters. I began to notice my wife start to use sex as a weapon (holding out, "if you do this - you get THIS", etc). Often times promising sex that night just to have an excuse or pick a fight RIGHT before action. And the all too often telling me about how horny she was, how sexy she found something, how much she wants me; only to have her act like Lucy and pull the ball right before Charlie Brown kicks it. All too often the promise of sex once we got to bed was just so she could get her ego kibble and cuddle time, only to be “Too Tired” once foreplay involved removing our underwear. After a while I was having none of it and she played dumb, but it continued with varying frequency. This became a big point of contention, for me.

Then one day I was watching "Everybody Loves Raymond" and in the episode Raymond began to hold out on his wife (i don't remember how or why it started), and it frustrated and confused her. It stuck in my head for a while.

Then one day I thought about that episode, and thought 2 can play that game. The next time I was turned down, I held up my right hand and said half-jokingly, “That’s OK! I’ve got my girlfriend here. She can take care of it! And ya know what? She never says “NO”! And she never argues!” She said, “Good! Knowing you she probably gets a lot of action.” and shrugged it off.

Then I stopped the subtle touching that would hint to my interest. I still complimented her, when she looked nice, letting her know she is beautiful & I love her. I was a loving husband but not a lover. However I stopped using words like “Sexy” or “Hot”. When she would do her teasing I would play on a bit, but I always made it about me. And the closer it got to action time the more tired I became or the more urgent some work matter became.

Eventually she wasn’t getting her ego kibble, nor getting her own sexual release, and she would put the hardcore press in bed. At which point I would be WAY to tired, or tell her “Oh I thought you were tired.” Then holding up my hand and say, “so I took care of it in the shower…” She got quite frustrated, and I went to sleep. This had gone on for about 3 wks, and eventually she became VERY frustrated, and we had a conversation. She would ask if I found her sexy & I would tell her she was very attractive. When she would ask why I didn’t want sex I told her it wasn’t that I didn’t want it’s just that, “I’m really tired lately,” “work is stressful lately,” “I have a lot on my mind,” “I’m gassy and don’t feel sexual then,” Many of the same excuses she used with me.

We had sex the next night and it was pretty hot and she was more passionate than I remembered her being in a LONG time. The next day I was being the loving husband AND lover: I was rubbing her back, rubbing up on her calling her sexy etc.. and she said “you will find out how sexy I am when we get to bed..” Then as we were going to bed that night (I made sure it was early, so we had time), she gave hints of being tired… when we got in bed I began to rub up on her she said “hey babe, I’m tired can you just hold me?”… I said “Hold on I gotta do something..” I hopped out of bed, went to the bathroom & grabbed some Kleenex. I then climbed in to bed and let “my girlfriend do the work”.. When I was gone I went a flushed the Kleenex, washed me hands, and climbed back in bed. The whole time her jaw was on the floor. I then faced the wall to go to sleep. She then said “What just happened?” I held up my hand and said, “I told you she never says NO.” Surprisingly, she was now turned on, and when she began rubbing up on me I told her “hey babe, I’m tired can you just hold me?” She went, “Huh…” and cuddled up behind me and kissed my neck a few times & told me she loves me and that I am her “Whole World” as I went to sleep.

I had tried to send a message but it hadn’t sunk in so I doubled down. Over the next few weeks the situation played out… if she promised or implied sex, or if I was generally horny; I took care of myself before it we got to bed (so I wouldn’t be tempted). And when she would actually push for sex in bed, and I would tell her I was “tired.” She would then ask “What about your NEEDS?” I would tell her … “Oh I already took care of those in the bathroom a little while ago. I know you’re tired so I didn’t want to bother you. Night Babe! I love you!” then I rolled over and went to sleep. She was NOT happy.

This finally came to a head about week 3 of round 2. She began to get sexual in the middle of the day (something I have BEGGED for a long time). She was rubbing up on be, grabbed my hand pulling me to the couch, & said “have we broken this couch in yet?...” Boy did my lower head want to “break in” the couch. Then I said, “hold on babe I need to go to pee first..” Once I got in the bathroom… you guessed it (Manual), and it didn’t take much. When I got back I cuddled up to her on the couch and she was like, “WTF! Are you going to F me or not?” Then I said, “Oh I’m sorry, I knew you would be either too tired, too stressed, or have too much on your mind by the time I got back I just took care of it myself so you wouldn’t have to worry about it.”

That did it! The gloves came off! She laid in to me about how ****ty I had made her feel, I was a bad husband, etc. I asked her how I made her feel ****ty? How was I a bad husband? Had I not complimented her? Did I not do plenty of work around the house, including dishes, folding laundry, home repairs/maintenance, and more than ½ the cooking? Do I not provide for us? (we didn’t have kids yet.) She said, I did all of those and more, but I made her feel low and unwanted. I asked how. And she said I wouldn’t have sex with her, I would promise get her all excited and then deny her, and this made her feel un loved.

I said, “Sounds Familiar!” To which she asked, “What do you mean?” I responded, “Isn’t that exactly what I have been complaining about for a while now? You’re not Lucy, I’m not Charlie Brown, and our sex life isn’t some football.” 

Then she realized this was intentional, and she went to a new level of RED! She had several choice words to say to me, but eventually said what I had been saying all along. She said, “Ya know, SEX IS NOT A FAH-HUCKING WEAPON.” I said, “Exactly! I completely agree with you. Sex is part of a healthy relationship and should be used to strengthen a relationship. Not control one. The problem is you have been using to control our relationship for far too long and it has begun to destroy our marriage. I just don’t know what it will take for you to see that. How has using sex to control relationship worked out for your girlfriends?” I saw her face change right then and there. We talked for a while! I apologized for how I made her feel but I needed for her to see.

Has it been perfect since? No, I wouldn’t say perfect, but it has been awesome. That was over 15 years ago. Toxic (really just bad advice) friends are gone. We now have kids, and sex has become a tool we use to strengthen our relationship. Are there times sex is one sided, absolutely.. but that is part of the fun each spouse focusing on pleasuring the other. and yes it is a 2-way street in my marriage, we each "get our own"

Was this childish? probably..

Will it work for everyone? No but it worked for us…

Will this work for the OP? Not sure, but I hope the message that "Sex is not a weapon. Sex is part of a healthy relationship and should be used to strengthen a relationship. Not control one."


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Say dog, I think that is awesome. You had obviously tried lots of other nicer things and they had not worked. I think you need to write a book about this personally lol


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There is a tendency for people to map their own experiences onto these situations (and I of course do the same). When a reader with a typical libido hears about someone who's partner doesn't want sex, they tend to put themselves in the mindset of that partner. The think "under what conditions would I turn down sex". Since they normally enjoy sex, they come to the conclusion that the poster is doing something "wrong". What they think he/she is doing, depends on the reader's own experience of what others have done wrong to them. Out comes a wide range of thoughts: (Using "he" but many of these apply to "she" as well)

He is a doormat, needs to "man up". 
He needs to be more sensitive to her needs
He needs to do more chores.
He needs to do less chores
He needs to be more romantic. 
He needs to be more manly and less romantic
He needs to get in good physical shape. 
He is a bad lover
He is to vanilla in bed
He is porn- driven in what he does in bed
He needs to make her feel more comfortable and safe
He needs to make her feel afraid 


On and on. The thing is, all of these are true in some situations. In others though, the partner just doesn't want sex and nothing, really nothing, will cause them do desire sex. They may have sex to avoid some negative consequences, but they will not *want it. Ever.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Exactly, uhtred


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

BarbedFenceRider said:


> Is this a cultural shift in identities that now women in changing roles have even less use for their "men"? Or is it just men acting more in feminine roles "traditionally" that give this NEW AGE phenomenon gas?


Yes and yes.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It just seems to me that, as society has changed to allow women to be sexual beings rather than cooks and baby makers, that openness should remove any stigma associated with actually enjoying sex rather than considering it a wifely duty, thus expanding the sexual part of a relationship.
> 
> Is that not happening?


It's happening in a big big way. Just not with their boring provider husbands.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> This isn't about "getting sex." This is about being a man of integrity whose integrity isn't dependent on OTHER PEOPLE's behavior. Real men have character even when it is tough.
> 
> I did have to bold the last suggestion, however, as it is Marriage Builders  Lots of people know about the first book, but you pretty much have to be on the forum to hear much about the second


Are you stalking me??? This is the 3rd time on 3 different threads that you've accused me of being from Marriage Builders after I've suggested Willard Harley's books. What the heck is the "wink"  for? You and I have no inside secrets.

You're getting creepy personofinterest.

As I have previously said, I do not post or read on Marriage Builders! I learned about those books here, along with many other books. I recommend them in certain situations because those two books are excellent for helping married people people learn their boundaries and needs and learn to respect the other persons boundaries and needs.

I doubt that Marriage Builders has a rule that you have to be a member of their forum to like and suggest their books!!


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

I'm just going to throw out that when I get old and grey and looking back upon my life, I don't want regrets. Or atleast many of them. I don't want to be the guy that says, "Man, I wish I had more intimacy with my partner, more loving commited sex and desire." "But thank heavens I had integrity and man'd up for everyone..."
"Oh, and those cookbooks were fantastic, along with the stamp collection..." ROFL


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Lonelygent1977 said:


> Thanks for all the advice everybody, were not trying for a baby I had a vasectomy 8 years ago, funnily enough in a bid to have more sex ie taking away the fear of unplanned pregnancy, it didn't work lol.
> We have been together a long time 22 years 16 married, she was only 16 and I was 18 she was a virgin when we met, she was very shy and timid as her parents were very controlling and she was adopted and an only child so she was spoiled.
> I do feel bad that she spent all her younger years with me when she should have been having fun with men, but she's always said in the past I could have dumped you if I wanted that.
> I am working hard to get fitter I'm no slob I'm 6ft4in and 220lbs and I have a very active job, my wife on the other hand is only 5ft2in and has in recent years gained a few pounds, which dosent bother me in the slightest, I love her and I can only see the pretty girl I started dating 22 years ago.
> ...


That's a good sign, and means that you should take the "do more dishes" approach that has been given. Not the "Forget her and work on yourself" approach. The former works when the denying spouse has good will towards you, and who's refusal is the result of legitimate life circumstances. The latter, "forget her" approach works when the denying spouse has checked out of the marriage, and doesn't have good will towards you. Thankfully, your wife seems to have good will, so go with the former approach, quoted below.

Don't forget about the books. They are immeasurably helpful. Enjoy your vaca 


_If you want to be happily married in 10 years, man up and do what you know is right:

1. Be the best father and husband you can be.
2. Keep pulling your weight at home with the chores. Don't mope, or be angry about it. Being a father and husband are your jobs!
3. Take care of yourself: gym, friends, spiritual life, etc.
4. STOP looking at other women!! When you see flesh coming toward you, look away and think about the marriage you want with your wife. STOP daydreaming about other women!!!
5. Tell your wife how badly you are suffering from not having sex. Tell her that you will not be able to stay forever in a sexless marriage. Eventually, you will divorce her to get the love, both emotional and physical, that you need.
6. DO NOT CHEAT!
7. Get marriage counseling with your wife.
8. Buy His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters by Willard Harley. Read them with our wife.​_


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

BarbedFenceRider said:


> I am finding it very odd that more and more wives seem to be good with the "Roommate Marriage" thing...We have countless threads stated the SAME thing, over and over again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My biased opinion is that women are losing respect for their husbands for whatever reason. 

For example... did he let himself go? Did he stop dating her? Did he stop doing the things he did when they were dating? Ect ect. Now she may have the upper hand. Who knows.


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

"Enjoy your vaca"-----In spanish that means enjoy your cow! lol

I think you meant Vacay. Trendy shortening of vacation. 


Just joshin'...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BioFury said:


> That's a good sign, and means that you should take the "do more dishes" approach that has been given. Not the "Forget her and work on yourself" approach. The former works when the denying spouse has good will towards you, and who's refusal is the result of legitimate life circumstances. The latter, "forget her" approach works when the denying spouse has checked out of the marriage, and doesn't have good will towards you. Thankfully, your wife seems to have good will, so go with the former approach, quoted below.
> 
> Don't forget about the books. They are immeasurably helpful. Enjoy your vaca
> 
> ...


I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. My wife definitely gets more frisky when away from home, and she says it's because she feeld more free.

However.... my taking all the pressure off of her at home didn't change anything at home. 

I think there's a more complex dynamic at work here. My wife did seem to get more interested in me when I put her on the back burner so to speak.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. My wife definitely gets more frisky when away from home, and she says it's because she feeld more free.
> 
> However.... my taking all the pressure off of her at home didn't change anything at home.
> 
> I think there's a more complex dynamic at work here. My wife did seem to get more interested in me when I put her on the back burner so to speak.


Is your wife competitive?

This is a huge variable in that equation.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Is your wife competitive?
> 
> This is a huge variable in that equation.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Actually, no. She is hyperavoidant of competition or even confrontation.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. My wife definitely gets more frisky when away from home, and she says it's because she feeld more free.
> 
> However.... my taking all the pressure off of her at home didn't change anything at home.
> 
> I think there's a more complex dynamic at work here. My wife did seem to get more interested in me when I put her on the back burner so to speak.


Fair point, but if I remember correctly, you woke up some time ago with your hand in your wife's undies, and she was like "What the hell are you doing?". From my perspective, this would indicate some level of animosity between you and your wife on the subject of sex. While that may not be the case for the OP. Sex may not be a "trigger" for her, she just doesn't feel like it often. She may be passive on the subject, rather than openly hostile, if that makes sense.

I'm sorry, btw


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BarbedFenceRider said:


> I am finding it very odd that more and more wives seem to be good with the "Roommate Marriage" thing...We have countless threads stated the SAME thing, over and over again.
> 
> Now, I also find it surprising that the men in the marriage are doing all the same things...Back Rubs, More dishes, Cooking, Cleaning house. Basically pampering her 24/7. And the man is essentially told to sit down and behave like a good boy.
> 
> ...


Marriage requires unselfishness and empathy. Look who our President is. The Kardashians are admired by many people as industrious folk who have gotten ahead in life. And they seem to be successful for what success is today. Most people under 40 spend hours of their day posting about themselves online for the world to see, what they eat, where they are at all times. And you are surprised that folks don't do marriage well anymore? 

Soon enough we are going to be able to buy virtual spouses who can look and be whatever we want whenever we want. Then there won't be any marriage. 

Finally emotional training and discipline has been completely abandoned by the culture. Probably one of the biggest failures of the last 100 years.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> Stop helping her with the housework, cooking, etc. Spend that time at the gym and rocking things at your job. If you guys get divorced then you won't be helping her around the house at all. Give her a taste of what that will be like.
> 
> It is not that cutting her off will get her in the mood. It won't. It is that cutting her off shows that you respect yourself enough not to be her doormat and punching bag.
> 
> ...


No woman with any integrity or self respect would even think of having a man back who had done such a disgusting thing. Just sick.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BioFury said:


> Fair point, but if I remember correctly, you woke up some time ago with your hand in your wife's undies, and she was like "What the hell are you doing?". From my perspective, this would indicate some level of animosity between you and your wife on the subject of sex. While that may not be the case for the OP. Sex may not be a "trigger" for her, she just doesn't feel like it often. She may be passive on the subject, rather than openly hostile, if that makes sense.
> 
> I'm sorry, btw


Well, that wasn't an animosity thing. Of all the sexual complaints I might levy against my wife, that event isn't one of them. I was quite definitely feeling her up without her participation or even consent. Under such a circumstance, she most certainly has the right and authority to say "knock it off" without any fear of being mistaken for frigid or asexual. 

My sharing that anecdote was on point on that thread, in that it described my experience with such a bizarre phenomenon; sleep groping. Given how dexterous I was in doing it. I can see how it might be hard to believe that I was completely unconscious at the time.


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

dadstartingover said:


> It's happening in a big big way. Just not with their boring provider husbands.


I don't know why I missed this. But just read it and now have to clean my screen. Pepsi everywhere! lol
:laugh:


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Please don't cheat. Nothing good ever comes of that and you risk blowing up your children's lives as well as yours. 

You say you have talked to her about this, but have you actually told her of your deep struggles with temptation?


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Whatever path you take, I hope you report back with your results. Good luck my friend


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> No woman with any integrity or self respect would even think of having a man back who had done such a disgusting thing. Just sick.


1) There are women that have little self-respect and some that lack integrity, so yes, this happens. The same is true for men. So whether a husband's bad behavior is rewarded or not depends on what type his wife is. There are hundreds of stories in here where the wife _did_ take the husband back under similar circumstances. There are thousands where the wife took her husband back but was too ashamed to write the story anywhere. I'd be in that camp if I were a BH. 

2) There are hundreds of stories in here where a wife leaves her loyal, dish-washing, diaper-changing, laundry-folding husband for an ex-convict, often a sex offender. These are even more bizarre than the example of the wife who takes back her serial wayward husband. 

So yeah, both sexes do things that are nothing to be proud of. It's more interesting to examine how people _actually_ behave than discuss how they _should_ behave and pretend that the latter is how things actually occur.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Tatsuhiko said:


> 1) There are women that have little self-respect and some that lack integrity, so yes, this happens. The same is true for men. So whether a husband's bad behavior is rewarded or not depends on what type his wife is. There are hundreds of stories in here where the wife _did_ take the husband back under similar circumstances. There are thousands where the wife took her husband back but was too ashamed to write the story anywhere. I'd be in that camp if I were a BH.
> 
> 2) There are hundreds of stories in here where a wife leaves her loyal, dish-washing, diaper-changing, laundry-folding husband for an ex-convict, often a sex offender. These are even more bizarre than the example of the wife who takes back her serial wayward husband.
> 
> So yeah, both sexes do things that are nothing to be proud of. It's more interesting to examine how people _actually_ behave than discuss how they _should_ behave and pretend that the latter is how things actually occur.


I am sure we all know many people who didn't stay around to take a cheating spouse back even the first time he or she did it. I am sure that the number of women who would take him back if he had cheated with her own sister is almost nil.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I am sure we all know many people who didn't stay around to take a cheating spouse back even the first time he or she did it. I am sure that the number of women who would take him back if he had cheated with her own sister is almost nil.


There are women who stay with wife beaters and run off with sex offenders--two types of men who make apologetic cheating husbands look like saints. I think there are wives that would blame their sister instead of their own husband. I know it's not pleasant to believe it's true.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

badsanta said:


> There, I just gave you dry wood and matches! Good luck!!


No, you just gave him dry wood and a small thermonuclear device. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

seadoug105 said:


> A lot of people are gonna flip out on this one (some for content, some for length, and some for the TMI), but we as a couple are in a fare better place because of it…
> 
> Early in my marriage my wife had a group of friends that were a little full of themselves and felt they controlled men like puppet masters. I began to notice my wife start to use sex as a weapon (holding out, "if you do this - you get THIS", etc). Often times promising sex that night just to have an excuse or pick a fight RIGHT before action. And the all too often telling me about how horny she was, how sexy she found something, how much she wants me; only to have her act like Lucy and pull the ball right before Charlie Brown kicks it. All too often the promise of sex once we got to bed was just so she could get her ego kibble and cuddle time, only to be “Too Tired” once foreplay involved removing our underwear. After a while I was having none of it and she played dumb, but it continued with varying frequency. This became a big point of contention, for me.
> 
> ...


Seadoug, thank you for sharing. Your story was awesome.

I think it worked for your marriage because you are describing your wife as a sexual person who was just using sex to jerk you around. But as you saw, she has a sexual pulse and began coming after sex with you when you stopped chasing her with it.

However, there are many LD spouses who are just going to be happy not to be badgered by their HD spouse. Your story wouldn’t work in a case like that.

Also it would not likely work if the LD spouse was withholding because they are cheating, which happens too.

Or if the LD spouse was only LD for their spouse, not for sex, which also happens a lot.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

@Diana7 You stated "I am sure that the number of women who would take him back if he had cheated with her own sister is almost nil." 

No offense, but you most be living in an alternate world, or you must been living a very sheltered life to believe and make this type of statement.

Around this world, specially for women, it is more prevalent than you could ever imagine. Please, go out into the world, and experience life as it truly is, not as some people experiencing the sanitize version of it. You know, there still are people that believe that the world is square, did you know that.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Well, that wasn't an animosity thing. Of all the sexual complaints I might levy against my wife, that event isn't one of them. I was quite definitely feeling her up without her participation or even consent. Under such a circumstance, she most certainly has the right and authority to say "knock it off" without any fear of being mistaken for frigid or asexual.
> 
> My sharing that anecdote was on point on that thread, in that it described my experience with such a bizarre phenomenon; sleep groping. Given how dexterous I was in doing it. I can see how it might be hard to believe that I was completely unconscious at the time.


I'd disagree, her behavior was the epitome of frigid. If you came home from work, walked over to give her a hug and a kiss, and she withdrew and said "Did I consent to being touched?", or "Did I say I wanted to participate in physical affection?", you would consider her behavior quite frigid and unacceptable. And yet you think the very same reaction is quite reasonable when you stick your hand underneath her clothes? I don't think so. Sounds like the relationship you'd have with a stranger.



BarbedFenceRider said:


> I don't know why I missed this. But just read it and now have to clean my screen. Pepsi everywhere! lol
> :laugh:


I'm not getting the joke....


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

personofinterest said:


> This isn't about "getting sex." This is about being a man of integrity whose integrity isn't dependent on OTHER PEOPLE's behavior. Real men have character even when it is tough.
> 
> I did have to bold the last suggestion, however, as it is Marriage Builders  Lots of people know about the first book, but you pretty much have to be on the forum to hear much about the second


LOL... you are wrong about that. Look at my signature block. I've had both of those books listed there since 2011. I suggest them to many people here on TAM. Quite a few others suggest them as well. Why? Because they are some of the best marriage self-help books out there.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BioFury said:


> I'd disagree, her behavior was the epitome of frigid. If you came home from work, walked over to give her a hug and a kiss, and she withdrew and said "Did I consent to being touched?", or "Did I say I wanted to participate in physical affection?", you would consider her behavior quite frigid and unacceptable. And yet you think the very same reaction is quite reasonable when you stick your hand underneath her clothes? I don't think so. Sounds like the relationship you'd have with a stranger.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not getting the joke....


Holy false equivalencies, Batman! 

The reaction was different because the situation was different.

Even when she wasn't receptive to sex, she's never reacted negatively when I've approached and even groped _when she was awake_. That speaks much more than how she reacted when she woke in the middle of the night to find herself penetrated. If you're worried about assessing what behavior is not appropriate in a loving relationship, I submit that penetrating an unconscious woman qualifies, unless such a thing has already been discussed and preapproved.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lonelygent1977 said:


> Were going on holiday for 2 weeks tomorrow and funnily enough she does turn into a sex kitten when we are away, obviously due to no stress of work or chores.


How many hours a week do you and your wife spend doing date-like things, just the two of you?


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Holy false equivalencies, Batman!
> 
> The reaction was different because the situation was different.
> 
> Even when she wasn't receptive to sex, she's never reacted negatively when I've approached and even groped _when she was awake_. That speaks much more than how she reacted when she woke in the middle of the night to find herself penetrated. If you're worried about assessing what behavior is not appropriate in a loving relationship, I submit that penetrating an unconscious woman qualifies, unless such a thing has already been discussed and preapproved.


Of course they're different. All things that are compared are different. But I understand what you're saying. I don't really agree with your justifications for her behavior, but it's your marriage. I hope things improve the way you want them to.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> This is a prime example of WHY depriving your partner of their needs DOES make them vulnerable. No it doesn't "cause" them to cheat or make the cheating "not their fault." BUT yeah.....youtreat your spouse like crap or ignore them....they WILL be vulnerable. And that vulnerability IS on you.


Vulnerable until the point when you realize what's going on with the relationship. 

Introspection is a good thing.


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## Lonelygent1977 (Feb 20, 2018)

EleGirl said:


> How many hours a week do you and your wife spend doing date-like things, just the two of you?


We go out about once a month, mostly because of work I work 5am till 4pm mon-fri and she works nights 7-7 mon- Thurs and for financial reasons.
We do watch netfilx most of the time on our own,the kids entertain themselves in their rooms.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## azimuth (May 15, 2018)

You have sex when she ovulates, I think that's a good sign that she enjoys sex. I assume that she initiates those times, does she? What about the rest of the time, do you initiate? What do your attempts look like? How does she shoot them down? One of the good pieces of advice I read here was made her give you a "no." That way it shows that you tried and she said no. She can't manipulate the situation after that or rewrite history.

In my past marriage, I would rather have sex than him doing housework. Helping more with chores did nothing for me. So if your wife is like me, if you're helping more around the house it's not going to make her want to desire you. I would rather trade the time by having sex instead. That's my experience. Some women do like it. Even if the dishes were piling up I'd want him to come over and take me, wherever I was in the house, before doing dishes.

I would read those books that were suggested - with your wife. Tell her you insist on doing this together instead of watching netflix. That you want to get to know her better and you want to build a stronger marriage. Those books will teach you both what the other likes regarding initiation and getting turned on.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Tatsuhiko said:


> There are women who stay with wife beaters and run off with sex offenders--two types of men who make apologetic cheating husbands look like saints. I think there are wives that would blame their sister instead of their own husband. I know it's not pleasant to believe it's true.


Maybe a tiny number, not the ones who have any sort of self esteem.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> > There, I just gave you dry wood and matches! Good luck!!
> 
> 
> No, you just gave him dry wood and a small thermonuclear device.
> ...


 @Cletus in the book "Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence" by Esther Perel, she does recommend that the idea of a third party in the bedroom can be used to reignite a partner's competitive inclinations. Now I am sure my method is probably a bad idea... but it would definitely make something happen!


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

badsanta said:


> @Cletus in the book "Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence" by Esther Perel, she does recommend that the idea of a third party in the bedroom can be used to reignite a partner's competitive inclinations. Now I am sure my method is probably a bad idea... but it would definitely make something happen!


She didn't invent the idea. It's GAME 101. 

In the book "Pimp" by Iceberg Slim, he talks about how a mentor pimp taught him a sure fire way to get his hooker to respect him more. The solution was to go to wire himself money from another prostitute that was supposed to be in a neighboring town (fake - she didn't exist). His girl would see the envelope of money from some other mysterious girl and her competitive urges would kick up a few notches. She would start treating him better and work harder for him.

Iceberg Slim and Esther Perel... not quite the same style, but same result.

Patrice (RIP) also talks about it in his "catching fish" bit:


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## Lonelygent1977 (Feb 20, 2018)

badsanta said:


> @Cletus in the book "Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence" by Esther Perel, she does recommend that the idea of a third party in the bedroom can be used to reignite a partner's competitive inclinations. Now I am sure my method is probably a bad idea... but it would definitely make something happen!


I'm currently listening to her book on audible it's very good and giving me some pointers.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Sorry, but if you are getting it a few times a month, you are NOT in a sexless marriage, and treating her like the two of you never hook up only pushes her further away. I went through that with an ex husband... twice a week was translated by him as NEVER. And I must say it insulted and infuriated me that he came at me this way. I shut down further and further the more he b!tched at me, and the more he came at me for sex only. Some people are in TRULY sexless relationships, so work on your non sexual relationship with your wife and you will likely see positive results.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Lonelygent1977 said:


> We go out about once a month, mostly because of work I work 5am till 4pm mon-fri and she works nights 7-7 mon- Thurs and for financial reasons.
> We do watch netfilx most of the time on our own,the kids entertain themselves in their rooms.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


That needs to be increased to 15 hours a week. This time should be spent giving each other undivided attention, meeting both of your emotional needs. Watching TV doesn't count.

15 hours may sound like a big feat, but do you really want the next 3, 5, or even 10 years of your life, to be spent away from your wife? To me, the thought is sad and depressing. A day is the largest allotment of time we're ever given. So if you don't make time every day to spend with her, you never will. You'll start getting old, and wonder were all the time went. 

So, my suggestion, is do what's necessary to make the change. Spending time with your wife and family are what's really important. When you're old, you'll regret spending so much time apart. Fix it while you're still young.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

badsanta said:


> @Cletus in the book "Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence" by Esther Perel, she does recommend that the idea of a third party in the bedroom can be used to reignite a partner's competitive inclinations. Now I am sure my method is probably a bad idea... but it would definitely make something happen!


What a terrible idea.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Lonelygent1977 said:


> I'm currently listening to her book on audible it's very good and giving me some pointers.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


I wouldn't pay too close attention. She has a very new age view of "marriage". She has no qualms about recommending 3-ways, spouse sharing, or really anything, to keep a marriage "fresh". When in my opinion, if such things are introduced, you no longer have a marriage - just a public orgy.



Diana7 said:


> What a terrible idea.


I agree. Esther Pearl doesn't know her butt from her elbow as far as I'm concerned.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BioFury said:


> I wouldn't pay too close attention. She has a very new age view of "marriage". She has no qualms about recommending 3-ways, spouse sharing, or really anything, to keep a marriage "fresh". When in my opinion, if such things are introduced, you no longer have a marriage - just a public orgy.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Ester Pearl doesn't know her butt from her elbow as far as I'm concerned.


Yes, she is encouraging people to behave really badly, not something for anyone to read or listen to if they care about their marriage or spouse at all.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Lonelygent1977 said:


> I'm currently listening to her book on audible it's very good and giving me some pointers.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


Far far more useful for you to talk to and listen to your wife. To tell her of you deep struggles and temptations. Have you even really done that? Honestly?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Yes, she is encouraging people to behave really badly, not something for anyone to read or listen to if they care about their marriage or spouse at all.


Perel was named to Oprah Winfrey's Supersoul 100 list of visionaries and influential leaders.

Don't be so fast to judge someone capable of getting others to engage in meaningful discussions and find a happier and more meaningful life.

I think she is like one of those politicians that just uses controversy to encourage public debate. If you get people talking and asking questions, the worst thing that will happen is that they might actually learn something. Almost every problem can be improved by education, but sometimes it is difficult to get people to learn something. 

Third person in the bedroom! No &^%$& way... OMG Oprah is into that? What it can't be... I'm am going to read more about this because this is insane.... (someone starts learning)


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lonelygent1977 said:


> I'm currently listening to her book on audible it's very good and giving me some pointers.


Hopefully it will give you and your wife a few things to start talking about!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Perel was named to Oprah Winfrey's Supersoul 100 list of visionaries and influential leaders.
> 
> Don't be so fast to judge someone capable of getting others to engage in meaningful discussions and find a happier and more meaningful life.
> 
> ...


Well anyone who Oprah likes is someone I may stay well away from. :surprise:


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## nessa8222 (Jun 24, 2018)

Towards the end of my first marriage we had this issue. Like you he wanted sex more frequently and I often was not in the mood. We both worked a lot and although he started helping out more around the house and with the kids, I felt very unappreciated because I had been carrying most of the weight for all of it for years. I also felt that a lot of him helping was just for sex and he wasn't really willing to invest time in the emotional intimacy I needed to feel loved and valued. Sex is not just physical. It may very well be that your wife loves you and does want that connection with you but doesn't know how to verbalize her needs. Or she may be dealing with a lot of physical, mental and emotional issues that are just making it difficult to get in the mood and enjoy sex. Either way, I would recommend investing time in reconnecting with your wife without the expectation of sex for now. If you do everything you can to reconnect with her and she shows no desire to grow closer to You, then ask her to consider marriage counseling. No matter how impossible it may seem the marriage can be saved if you both love each other and want things to work. In my case, I felt terribly alone and hurt that it seemed like all he wanted was sex. He felt rejected and decided he didn't want to be together/refused counseling and found someone else. That relationship didn't last. But, the damage did last and now our kids go back and forth between parents. I certainly didn't handle things perfectly and to some extent I didn't fully understand some of the underlying issues until I went to counseling by myself. I would just be cautious about some of the advice I've seen posted, no matter how well intentioned it may be, if it may possibly do more damage it isn't worth the risk. 

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