# Marital Problems after only 3 years - Help!



## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

Apologies for the long post 

Have been with my wife for 6 years this month, married for 3. We have a 3yr old boy too. I guess the problems were initiated by me. There's been times within the relationship where i've felt lonely, almost like a single dad. And, like an idiot, I seeked solace elsewhere and flirted with a girl online. It was a complete random, but that doesn't make it excusable. What makes it worse is that I've done it twice. I've never physically cheated, I guess I just needed an ego boost whenever I've been made to feel "unattractive" by my wife. I was found out both times. To make things worse, my wife was also caught red handed, flirting with an old friend she openly says she thinks is fit, which only hurt me more as it felt more personal. But in her eyes, hers was just a joke which went wrong whereas mine was cheating.

Anyway, it was decision time. We know we both screwed up, and it was time to fight to save the marriage or walk away. We decided to stick with it and head to marriage counselling. I found it helpful but she was quite closed minded and didn't find it helped. Especially when the counsellor was telling my wife that she wasn't blameless. After she was hearing this, she stopped going and believed we could work through this ourselves. And we did.

A year later is where we are now. The trust on both parties is finally back. We used to both snoop on each other and be paranoid, but now it's all completely relaxed. We get on really well, emotionally it feels like we've moved heaven and earth and back in a good place. However, physically, it's a different story.

We have sex once a month. She loves it when we do sleep together, but is of the belief that once a month is what couples do that have been together this long, and that it'll never be how it was at the start? She said she doesn't want or need it anymore than once a month. If she's not in the mood, then she can't have it more than that and won't allow me to get her into the mood.

The problem is, the once a month thing, has now become 6 weeks, then 2 months. We have sex maybe 10 times a year. I read in the paper that anything less than 12 times a year is classed as a sexless marriage.... told my wife this, she said how can ours be a sexless one if we have sex still? I've told her I want a regular, healthy, physical relationship with my wife. When I kiss her, she'll kiss me and then move away. She doesn't touch me and foreplay is non existent. 

She says she's aware of how unhappy I am with the physical side of things, but its a "feeling" that's stopping her having more sex, not an action? She doesn't feel like sleeping with me, doesn't feel like kissing me. She says it's to do with the past and believes i'm gonna "cheat" on her again. Yet emotionally, she's definitely moved on. I can't help but feel she just isn't attracted to me anymore and now has a good excuse to give? We are like room mates! I questioned why she doesn't even have any needs it seems.... she said she's too busy with work to have needs?!

Every night, she'll want to snuggle/cuddle me and asks me for a massage, which I do. So I suppose, if that's her needs, they are being met! So it's not like she doesn't want to be close at all, but all she wants to do is cuddle....

Work is another problem. She's not the main breadwinner, but stays late at work every single day. Her working hours are 9am - 5.30pm. If she can get out the house to start at 8am, she will. She regularly gets home for 7pm and then goes gym for an hour. Which brings me onto the next thing i'm confused about.... her role as a mum.

I work shifts, so on average I look after our son 2/3 times a week. My wife has him 4 days every 5 weeks (2 weekends in a row that I work). She misses his bedtime most nights, and when she is here for it, she'll choose to make dinner instead of spending time with him, putting him to bed, which I do most if not all of the time. My son is so attached to me, that she thinks he's obsessed with me! She'll ask him for a cuddle and he'll run to me to give me one instead. Whenever we leave the house together, he'll only hold my hand and want to be with me. Once a month or so, she'll get upset about it, cry at night about it, but then won't do anything about it and it's forgotten the next day.

She's a shocking mum - I do feel like a single dad. Especially when it's me having him most days and putting him to bed whilst she's not home. To some of you, it may sound like she's having an affair, but I know she's actually at work when she stays late. She says work stresses her out (she thinks the company will apart without her) and now says the marriage stresses her out as I try to communicate my/our issues to her. When I bring up the subject of sex, she says I put her under so much pressure and that I need to give her time and wait for her to come to me. What is she waiting for? I've waited 2 months since the last time we had sex. But I don't understand why the sex thing is getting worse over time and not improving?

We talked about splitting, she said it's not an option. She said it would break our boys heart if he didn't see me in the mornings. She questions whose happiness is more important, mine or my boys. Said our happiness is secondary to his. She's knows how good a dad I am. As I get so much time at home with him, I do all the chores too. All she does is cook, that's it! I clean, I do the washing, dishes, hoovering, a real house husband. Maybe she takes everything I do, for granted?

She thinks I place sex above her and the relationship, that's how much importance I place on it. It barely even registers in her mind, it's that unimportant to her.

She will not acknowledge there's a problem sexually, so will not go doctors to look into it. She would rather lose everything than to do whatever it takes to save the marriage. She wants me to stay in this sexless marriage, as in her eyes, everything else is pretty much perfect. I've been as honest as possible with her, she knows exactly how I feel.

Has she checked out the marriage physically? I know she can make me so happy again, but it frustrates me that she doesn't want to, and I don't want this marriage to be over!


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

mik3yc said:


> We talked about splitting, *she said it's not an option*. She said it would break our boys heart if he didn't see me in the mornings. She questions whose happiness is more important, mine or my boys. Said our happiness is secondary to his. She's knows how good a dad I am. As I get so much time at home with him, I do all the chores too. All she does is cook, that's it! I clean, I do the washing, dishes, hoovering, a real house husband. Maybe she takes everything I do, for granted?


You are definitely in a sexless marriage! It seems your wife is no longer attracted to you.

OK, so you have let her know of your concerns, but she says divorcing is not an option. What solution does she propose? Does she really think you will divorce her unless something changes? 

I would recommend reading the Married Man's Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay.

You are only married for 3 years...something's gotta give.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

She never once comes up with any solutions. Even when we went counselling, because she said I cheated and hers was a joke that went too far, she blamed all the marital problems on me. Didn't want to go counselling at all, to the point that she didn't pay a penny towards it. I forked out hundreds paying for it...

I guess i'm of the belief now that she doesn't fancy me, emotionally and/or physically but is on to too much of a good thing to walk away? But then why does she want to cuddle and snuggle up in front of the tv and in bed every night? Never anything more than that though. Not allowed to touch her in any of the places i want, that's a massive no-no.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I don’t think she realizes it yet, but it sounds like she is half out the door already. Since she is not willing to address the issues in your marriage, it might be best if you stop bugging her about it.

Also stop meeting her needs. If she will not meet yours, do not meet her. Stop giving her massages, etc. Treat her according to the 180 (see link below). You start withdrawing from her emotionally. Do things without her, just you and your son.

You see you are meeting her needs enough that she sees no crisis to meet your needs. So stop that already.

This will have one of two affects. 1) She will be thrown into a crisis when her needs are not met and then she will want to work on the marriage or 2) she will pull more away from you and divorce you. Once she sees a need for divorce she will no longer use the guilt trip of hurting your son because it will be what she wants. If you play it right… she will leave your son with you.

I am sure that the above sounds like an odd suggestion. But sometimes, to the only chance you have a fixing a marriage is to be willing to lose it.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

So when she asks for a cuddle or a massage, I just say no, on the basis that she's not sleeping with me? Seems a bit tit-for-tat. If I don't cuddle her, we will have absolutely no physical contact whatsoever.....

You mention about not bugging her about the issues... problem is, she's openly admitted she's happy to carry on as we are and just plod along, so that would be playing straight into her hands, no?

Thanks for the advice though


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Both of you read His Needs Her Needs and the Five Love Languages.

Good luck


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

This is the problem. She won't seek outside help and won't read any books. Whenever I've found a really good article that could help us, that's relevant to our issues, she'll read the first paragraph or 2 then stop. She'll tell me it's making her angry.

Yet she has no solutions. Says she doesn't have any answers. Just wants to plod along and take things a day at a time.

I emailed her at work today, asking how her day was and how she was, with kisses, the reply? Tired and behind with work. Literally that's it, word for word. Short, blunt and sharp. No kisses.

We used to email each other day in day out at work. Now? She might email me once a week, and that's only to ask if I mind her staying late or going gym, or asking me a question. Never idle chat  I don't deny she's busy and stressed, I just miss having her as a friend I guess.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

One thing I would do is INSIST that she take on more responsibilities with regard to childcare and housework. That's just not reasonable. You say she asks you if you "mind" her staying late or going to the gym. You must be saying you don't. So you're sitting around feeling frustrated, but you're not telling her that it's a problem. You're letting her walk on you. Even if she's not fully in the marriage anymore, her responsibility to her child is permanent. And maybe if you stand up for yourself a little more, she'll respect you more.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

One thing I'll just add about the "stay late at work" thing -- this is kind of a gray area, but I often find that there's more ability to leave early than a person is willing to admit. I AM the main breadwinner in my family, and I have a demanding job. But when I saw that my wife's work and family demands were overstressing her, I was able to examine my worklife and sometimes say "Do I really need to stay the extra two hours right now? Maybe I can come home early, help put the kid to bed, and then finish work from home after she goes to sleep." I do that a lot now, and so far my work has not suffered at all -- if anything I'm more efficient because of it. If your wife felt like she actually had some responsibility around the house, she'd also feel more pressure to use her time effectively at work.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

Good advice. I guess I say I don't mind as I genuinely enjoy the time I spend with my son. I guess it's just not "fair". But I find it odd that it doesn't bother her in the slightest that she's missing out on so much quality time with her only child? Very odd. I mean regardless of our marital issues, he's her son!

She doesn't need to work late at all. If she can't manage her workload, she needs to tell her boss. She often brings the company laptop home and works on the weekend. Her excuse being that she's stressed at home worrying about work that needs to get done. Instead of worrying about it, why not do it. She even broke down in tears at work once over the company getting fined for something. The MD couldn't understand, saying that if he wasn't upset, why was she? She does think the company will fall apart without her though. She won't take time off as that's an extra day she will be behind. As stressed as she may be, she LOVES the people there and would probably work there for free! Bizarre!


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

It sounds like she's escaping a lot. I don't know whether there's more going on than that, but it sounds like she's escaping her homelife and not facing the fact that she's a mother and wife as well as whatever her job is.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

Hmmm you could be right. On the 4 days she has him, in 5 weeks, I know she struggles to cope with him. Constantly talks about how much she misses him that day when she does come home, but is of the belief she spends enough time with him.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

But on the other hand, you seem to be giving her permission to do this, and then secretly resenting it.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

Plus there's absolutely no way I can ask her to not go out tonight and put her son to bed for once this week, without it turning into a massive argument. She'll take everything as criticism and get straight on the defensive.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

John Lee said:


> But on the other hand, you seem to be giving her permission to do this, and then secretly resenting it.


I guess I am, but my question is, why isn't she missing her child? That's what I don't understand? Surely she would want to be there for him most nights, if not all?


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Forget about tonight. If you spring it on her all of the sudden, I agree it will be ineffective. You need to find a time when you can sit down with her and really talk. "Listen, I feel that I am taking too much of the burden of our childcare, especially given that I also have a demanding job. I am overstretched, and I need you to share more of the burden with me." Something like that, where the focus is on your feelings and needs and not just accusing her. You're right, she may get defensive, but what are you going to do, keep avoiding confrontation just to keep things superficially pleasant? Here you are, complaining to strangers on a message board, rather than confronting your wife, right? Is that a sustainable solution?


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

I don't disagree with you! I guess as I work shifts, it's a mixture of days, nights, weekdays and weekends. I do get a few days off in the week, some of which are when my boy is at childcare, so I get the whole day to myself. She resents this... she sees it as she's working all week, so come the weekend, she wants some "me" time and never gets any free time to herself - whereas in her eyes, I get loads of free time to myself, so who am I to question her if she wants to take a few hours here and there for some "me" time...


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

mik3yc said:


> I don't disagree with you! I guess as I work shifts, it's a mixture of days, nights, weekdays and weekends. I do get a few days off in the week, some of which are when my boy is at childcare, so I get the whole day to myself. She resents this... she sees it as she's working all week, so come the weekend, she wants some "me" time and never gets any free time to herself - whereas in her eyes, I get loads of free time to myself, so who am I to question her if she wants to take a few hours here and there for some "me" time...


Ok, well the plot thickens a little. I'm somewhat sympathetic to her on this point. It sounds like you DO get a lot of free time to yourself, and she doesn't. Why shouldn't she want some? But are things out of balance? Is it really a case of you pulling your weight and she doesn't? Is it possible that on some of those "whole days off" you could get a few more errands or chores done to make life easier for both of you?


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

But at the same time, how many hours a week do you work? How many does she? Is she really pushing off most of her childcare duties at home on you or really just asking for "a few hours here and there"? Your son needs time with her too, it's not just about you and her.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

mik3yc said:


> This is the problem. She won't seek outside help and won't read any books. Whenever I've found a really good article that could help us, that's relevant to our issues, she'll read the first paragraph or 2 then stop. She'll tell me it's making her angry.
> 
> Yet she has no solutions. Says she doesn't have any answers. Just wants to plod along and take things a day at a time.


In that case I would advise you to read them, then if you think they are good, either explain some of the contents to her in conversation or seek to persuade her to change her mind about reading.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

John Lee said:


> Ok, well the plot thickens a little. I'm somewhat sympathetic to her on this point. It sounds like you DO get a lot of free time to yourself, and she doesn't. Why shouldn't she want some? But are things out of balance? Is it really a case of you pulling your weight and she doesn't? Is it possible that on some of those "whole days off" you could get a few more errands or chores done to make life easier for both of you?





John Lee said:


> But at the same time, how many hours a week do you work? How many does she? Is she really pushing off most of her childcare duties at home on you or really just asking for "a few hours here and there"? Your son needs time with her too, it's not just about you and her.


I work 12hr shifts, my days off are recovery days. For example, I might work 6.30pm til 6.30am, so the following day i'll be at home alone to get out of night shift and recover. You mention getting a few more errands/chores done, but I literally do 99% of them. Monday to Friday, the only chore she will do is the cooking (if we don't get takeaway). I do the hoovering, washing, dishes, tidying (the mess a 3yr old leaves is crazy!), take out the bins. If I do the cooking, she will have nothing to do.....

Over the course of a month, I work 180 hours (15 days on average x 12hrs). My wife will work 150 hours (7.5hr days for an average of 20 days). But where I work maybe a 3 day week, it appears I'm not at work much to her maybe?


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

tryingtobebetter said:


> In that case I would advise you to read them, then if you think they are good, either explain some of the contents to her in conversation or seek to persuade her to change her mind about reading.


The problem being, i've read articles before which I've thought were good and asked her to read them, and she refuses, saying it'll only make her angry....


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Do tell your wife you love her but never or seldom hear the same in return? Stop saying I love you. Stop sending her notes with XXX on them. Stop hugging her and massaging her. Stop engaging her in assuring chit chat.

Do you spend time in the gym. Make sure you are in shape. Do you smoke? Eat junk food? Is so quit. Say not one word about any change you make to improve yourself. Let your wife notice or not. You test her powers of observation.

As to the domestic chores... well studies have been done that show that couples in which the husband does the housework have sex less frequently.

Book activities in the evening for your wife to do. Arrange for a sitter. Don't discuss it with just tell her you've done it. It's all arranged.

Don't lose your temper and argue with her. Practice restraint in communication. You are not her subordinate. To be frank, she treats like a servant.

Work on yourself so that your happiness is not dependent on her because if she doesn't wake, you're headed for divorce.

Read the self help books people recommend. If Machiavelli (read his posts), Turnera or Elegirl suggest something, it will almost always be good advice.

Does your wife spend much time on Facebook?

How much do you watch TV? Cut TV out of your life. Read books. Don't let your wife see you reading books on how to improve yourself. She'll think your changes are fake. You have to make them real.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

mik3yc said:


> So when she asks for a cuddle or a massage, I just say no, on the basis that she's not sleeping with me? Seems a bit tit-for-tat. If I don't cuddle her, we will have absolutely no physical contact whatsoever.....
> 
> You mention about not bugging her about the issues... problem is, she's openly admitted she's happy to carry on as we are and just plod along, so that would be playing straight into her hands, no?
> 
> Thanks for the advice though


What you have been doing has not been working. Do you know what they call doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results? They call it insanity.

So you need to do something completely different from what you have been. That's what the term "180" means. It means to act completely different.

Get the book "Divorce Busting" when you read it pay close attention to the section on the 180. Customize it for your needs.

Then read the books "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters".

If you insist on just complaining and continuing as you have been, your marriage will continue to go down hill.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

mik3yc said:


> The problem being, i've read articles before which I've thought were good and asked her to read them, and she refuses, saying it'll only make her angry....


YOu can read the articles and the books and make changes in yourself. If you change, she has to change. You cannot control how she changes, but she will change. Hopefully it will be good change.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

mik3yc said:


> I don't disagree with you! I guess as I work shifts, it's a mixture of days, nights, weekdays and weekends. I do get a few days off in the week, some of which are when my boy is at childcare, so I get the whole day to myself. She resents this... she sees it as she's working all week, so come the weekend, she wants some "me" time and never gets any free time to herself - whereas in her eyes, I get loads of free time to myself, so who am I to question her if she wants to take a few hours here and there for some "me" time...


The way to handle this is that the two of you need to spend about 15 hours a week together, just the two of you doing date like things where you focus on each other.

After that, share the child care and personal alone time as equally as you can.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Do tell your wife you love her but never or seldom hear the same in return? Stop saying I love you. Stop sending her notes with XXX on them. Stop hugging her and massaging her. Stop engaging her in assuring chit chat.
> 
> Do you spend time in the gym. Make sure you are in shape. Do you smoke? Eat junk food? Is so quit. Say not one word about any change you make to improve yourself. Let your wife notice or not. You test her powers of observation.
> 
> ...


I often tell her I love her, to be fair, she probably tells me she loves me more than I tell her... Decided last night after reading the 180 thing, to just be happy and smiley, no matter what I was feeling inside. She clearly noticed, asked why I was in a good mood. All I said was that life's too short to be down in the dumps. Not sure if I said the right thing though!

Shes constantly on her phone, either texting or on facebook. Every night in bed, the phone comes out and she browses through facebook or she texts/whatsapp. And no, she's not texting another guy, as I can see who she's messaging if shes sitting next to me.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> The way to handle this is that the two of you need to spend about 15 hours a week together, just the two of you doing date like things where you focus on each other.
> 
> After that, share the child care and personal alone time as equally as you can.


Thanks Elegirl for your other posts too. 15 hours a week? Not sure how that's possible! I'll give you an example.... if i'm working a dayshift, i'm home for 7pm. She usually goes gym for 7.30. By the time our 3yr old has settled for bed, shes home for 8.30 and we'll eat dinner. If i'm not at work, she'll usually stay at work til 7pm and then possibly go gym for an hour at 7.30ish. Once a week, i'll go football in the evening.

I try to arrange "date night" but it's always dependent on getting a sitter, so it's hard to do regularly. She's usually so tired from work and/or gym, that once she's home, she just wants to eat and go to bed. 

A fortnight ago, she messaged me at work to tell me she wanted to try bring the romance back. That night, she ran me a bath when I got home, cooked me dinner, was a nice night. Since then? Nothing. Then again, i'm not sure what my expectations are....

So as for making time for just "us"... she won't even spend an hour with our son of an evening, let alone us as a couple.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

mik3yc said:


> Thanks Elegirl for your other posts too. 15 hours a week? Not sure how that's possible! I'll give you an example.... if i'm working a dayshift, i'm home for 7pm. She usually goes gym for 7.30. By the time our 3yr old has settled for bed, shes home for 8.30 and we'll eat dinner. If i'm not at work, she'll usually stay at work til 7pm and then possibly go gym for an hour at 7.30ish. Once a week, i'll go football in the evening.
> I try to arrange "date night" but it's always dependent on getting a sitter, so it's hard to do regularly. She's usually so tired from work and/or gym, that once she's home, she just wants to eat and go to bed.


Date like things does not mean necessarily formal dates. In-home dates are a great way to get quality time together. Other things that work are taking walks together. 

For example when she gets home at 8:30, you could have a date-like thing waiting for her. Run her a hot bath and have wine by the tub (get some plastic wine glasses for this). Then she can take a bath and you can sit in the bathroom with her and talk. Talk about all kinds of things. Maybe she will even invite you to join her in the tub.

Or after dinner has a very good dessert and a wine that goes with it. Then just sit, cuddle, eat your desserts/wind and have small talk.

What time do the two of you go to bed? So you have 8:30 to your bed time on work nights? You have time for dates those nights.

Go to the gym with her. Why are you staying home? Is there day care at the gym? Take advantage of it. Spend time working out with her. And again talking. 



mik3yc said:


> A fortnight ago, she messaged me at work to tell me she wanted to try bring the romance back. That night, she ran me a bath when I got home, cooked me dinner, was a nice night. Since then? Nothing. Then again, i'm not sure what my expectations are....


So she did something really nice. What did then follow up with? Work to get a pattern going where you two take turns planning even these little mini dates at home.


mik3yc said:


> So as for making time for just "us"... she won't even spend an hour with our son of an evening, let alone us as a couple.


You said that you go out every couple of weeks. You send time in the evening eating dinner. So start making those times more meaningful. Then start adding to them.

Your wife sounds profoundly unhappy. Maybe she feels that there is nothing at home for her. Sure she has a child. But if she is very unhappy and/or depressed home with her child and you might be the hardest thing for her to do right now. 

You are here asking for help, so you are the one who is going to be asked for help so you are going to get suggestions for things that you can do.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> For example when she gets home at 8:30, you could have a date-like thing waiting for her. Run her a hot bath and have wine by the tub (get some plastic wine glasses for this). Then she can take a bath and you can sit in the bathroom with her and talk. Talk about all kinds of things. Maybe she will even invite you to join her in the tub.
> 
> What time do the two of you go to bed? So you have 8:30 to your bed time on work nights? You have time for dates those nights.
> 
> ...


I've done the bath thing a few times, but whenever I've tried to surprise her with it, she'll text me to say she's staying at work late or tell me she's booked a last minute class at the gym, so it's hard to surprise her.

When i'm at home, she'll want to get into bed for 9.30, maybe 10pm. When I work a night shift, she'll up until 1 or 2am. I can't go gym with her, as it's the same problem with finding a sitter 

She is unhappy, she openly admits it, but says she's only unhappy because my unhappiness is making her unhappy? Go figure! Says she's not got any issues within the relationship, other than me constantly putting pressure on her regards our physical relationship. By this, it means, me bringing up the issue in conversation, or me even touching her in bed, she says its all pressure....


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

mik3yc said:


> I've done the bath thing a few times, but whenever I've tried to surprise her with it, she'll text me to say she's staying at work late or tell me she's booked a last minute class at the gym, so it's hard to surprise her.
> 
> When i'm at home, she'll want to get into bed for 9.30, maybe 10pm. When I work a night shift, she'll up until 1 or 2am. I can't go gym with her, as it's the same problem with finding a sitter
> 
> She is unhappy, she openly admits it, but says she's only unhappy because my unhappiness is making her unhappy? Go figure! Says she's not got any issues within the relationship, other than me constantly putting pressure on her regards our physical relationship. By this, it means, me bringing up the issue in conversation, or me even touching her in bed, she says its all pressure....


So she has told you some things that you can change. Stop being unhappy and harping on her. Stop putting pressure on her for sex.
There is a saying that is a bit simplistic but says a lot. “A woman needs a reason to have sex. A man just needs a place.”
She has no reason to want sex with her. You stopped wooing her, chasing her and dating her a long time ago. Instead you just think she should be having sex with you. That’s what she means when she says it’s all pressure. Read “His Needs, Her Needs”, it explains this stuff. 

Change your behavior… do a 180.. not the 180 in my signature block below… but instead your own customized 180. Here are some of the thing that are 180 from what you normally do.

1.	Act positive even when you do not feel positive.
2.	Point out the good things in your marriage. 
3.	Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive when you are with your wife. 
4.	No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
5.	Do not complain about anything.
6.	Talk about positive aspects of her parenting.
7.	Schedule as many dates, mini-dates, etc. as you can during the week.
8.	Don’t sit around waiting for you wife. Get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
9.	Never lose your cool.
10.	Be patient
11.	Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
12.	Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting.

After you read “His Needs, Her Needs” you can add to this. If you read “Divorce Busting” as well you will get more ideas of what to add to it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

mik3yc said:


> I've done the bath thing a few times, but whenever I've tried to surprise her with it, she'll text me to say she's staying at work late or tell me she's booked a last minute class at the gym, so it's hard to surprise her.


Don't tell her ahead of time. Tell her After she gets home.



mik3yc said:


> I can't go gym with her, as it's the same problem with finding a sitter


So there is no child are at the gym?


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

There's no childcare at the gym. I hear what you're saying and am willing to give anything a go. But I feel like it's only me putting the effort in to change to save this marriage?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

mik3yc said:


> There's no childcare at the gym. I hear what you're saying and am willing to give anything a go. But I feel like it's only me putting the effort in to change to save this marriage?


One person can change a marriage through unilateral changes.

You are the one who is here asking for help. We cannot make suggestions to you wife as she is not here. So yes, the suggestions are what you can do.

The goal is that over time, the positive changes in your will bring out positive changes in her. Eventually she will join you in the effort to improve your marriage.

Try it... for one week do the 180 list I gave you. See what changes happen in that one week.



The 180 is a gentle way to get her attention. But if you are only interested in doing things if she is on board with working with you then you are going to have to get harsh. You will have to do something like tell her that either the two of you will go to counseling together and work on the marriage together or you will divorce her. When she says that she's fine with the marriage you tell her that you are unhappy with the marriage. Is she ok that she has an unhappy husband? Then until she agrees to go to counseling you interact with her according to the 180 below. Have time limit of say 2 months. If she does not agree to go to counseling in 2 months file for divorce.

Or continue with your marriage as it is until eventually she walks.


Your choice.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

To answer your other question, yes, I do think it' s a little strange that your wife doesn't feel more compelled to spend time with your son. She seems to make the gym a big priority, for example, and to each their own, but for me and my wife that was something we cut back on so that we didn't miss our time with our daughter. It just didn't seem like a question -- we'd happily get a little less working out in to make sure we got regular family time. I don't really know what you can do about that though, except that if you think your son misses her and wants time with her you could hint at it.

I do think you need to tell her it's time for her to pull her weight around the house -- not to put it like that, but to come up with some reasonable expectations of what she should be doing around the house. With you working more hours AND making more money, there's just no excuse for her to be leaving 90% of the housework and childcare to you. Getting less "me" time is part of being a parent, and it sounds like a good amount of your "me" time is actually spent doing chores. So don't accept whiny bs answers from her. 

I think what's lacking in your relationship is not romance but respect. I think you're rolling over and giving her a nice easy lifestyle while you bust your ass, and it's time for that to stop.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

Update for you. We had a talk last night, she wanted to tell me what was going through her head. She said she's contemplating ending the marriage. Said she cannot move on from the past and that all of our current problems are because of that. She said because of how she feels emotionally, that's why we've not been sleeping together, as she's not wanted to. She doesn't have any solutions and can't see what can change that will change how she feels, but is willing to try. She said it's not like there's anything I can do or change, i'm not making her unhappy or anything. But she doesn't know how to stop feeling how she is.

She wants to be able to move on but simply doesn't know how. Counselling didn't work for her... I was thinking maybe hypnotherapy? Clutching at straw and I don't know enough about it, but I wan't to have tried everything possible before breaking the family up. Help!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I doubt that hypnotherapy will work.

Is she having an affair? Is that why she's at work late all the time and then at the gym after work? Maybe you should find out if she is really where she says she is.. gps tracker could help with that. VAR in her vehicle would help as well.

You have basically ignored all the advice you have been given... advice that could very well help you.

So I just do not know what else to say. Maybe someone else will come along to help you.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

She's at work when she says she is, I don't believe she's having an affair.

How have I ignored the advice? I was taking it all onboard and then hit me with this last night, so haven't had a chance to react


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Well, maybe I'm wrong. 

So what are you going to do?


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

Well when I got home last night, I had the 180 thing in my mind. Within a couple of hours, she noticed the changes. Kept asking why I seem so happy and confident. My aim was to try the 180 for a week. But when she landed that bombshell on me in bed last night, I'm not sure how to react? Had to be up at 5am as i'm currently at work, so it's all a bit unresolved.

She just messaged me to say that, she's not saying it's over, but wanted to let me know her thought process.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

John Lee said:


> To answer your other question, yes, I do think it' s a little strange that your wife doesn't feel more compelled to spend time with your son. She seems to make the gym a big priority, for example, and to each their own, but for me and my wife that was something we cut back on so that we didn't miss our time with our daughter. It just didn't seem like a question -- we'd happily get a little less working out in to make sure we got regular family time. I don't really know what you can do about that though, except that if you think your son misses her and wants time with her you could hint at it.
> 
> I do think you need to tell her it's time for her to pull her weight around the house -- not to put it like that, but to come up with some reasonable expectations of what she should be doing around the house. With you working more hours AND making more money, there's just no excuse for her to be leaving 90% of the housework and childcare to you. Getting less "me" time is part of being a parent, and it sounds like a good amount of your "me" time is actually spent doing chores. So don't accept whiny bs answers from her.
> 
> I think what's lacking in your relationship is not romance but respect. I think you're rolling over and giving her a nice easy lifestyle while you bust your ass, and it's time for that to stop.


I suppose the expectation is there for me to do the chores, as i'm at home way more than her. She's only at home for an hour or 2 before bed and then all weekend, whereas I get whole days at home, with or without my little boy. So to some extent, if i'm home and it needs doing, why shouldn't I? I suppose if the roles were reversed and she was at home whilst I worked 9-5, if the washing or dishes need doing, why would she leave them until I got home, if she's at home all day. Just trying to play devils advocate?

I do agree with your point about respect though.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

She is probably not fully aware of her own feelings. You both might have seemed to forgive and move on but I think your wife has put up an emotional block (wall) to protect herself from further hurt. Women do like need sex like men do and it is not as big of a priority in our lives but when we (women) do not get what we need outside of sex we then have no desire for sex itself. The things we need in order to feel good about being with our spouse is engagement. You being a part rather than you letting her take care of everything...the kids, the house, planning outings, etc. She needs conversation and not just someone to listen to her. If she asks for an opinion then give her an opinion. Plan a dinner out together without the baby, interact with your child in more than just play. These things are very important to us. If she allows you to touch her still without backing off or you feeling some sense of uneasiness from her than touch her, non-sexually.....hold her hand. Let her know how you feel about her. These things are essential for us to feel any desire to be with our husbands.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

She said she can't get over the past. How serious was this online "flirting?" How long did it last? How far did it go?


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

The flirting was very sexual, was more of an ego boost for me at times when I felt I needed it... but where it happened a few times over 6 years, that's her issue, even though she's also done it herself (not that that's any form of excuse).

But we decided to stay together and work through. She admits herself that she has no issue with our relationship currently, she's not unhappy in anyway. She just can't forget what happened and and doesn't know how to get past it, as it's holding her back in so many ways?

When I found out about her "indiscretion" online, I went ballistic and walked out (selfish I know), out of pure anger and hurt. Within a few hours, I came back and decided to work through it. She's of the opinion though, that based on how I reacted, I would never be with her still if the roles were reversed, and she'd done the flirting thing a few more times. She thinks she's an idiot for staying with me based on how I reacted, when she did it, if that makes sense? And that's not helping with her moving on thing.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I'm a little confused -- she can't get over the fact that you walked out for a few hours because SHE flirted online? Or is it because you had also done it, yet got upset when she did it? I'm having a hard time following this.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

I flirted online with complete random women 3 or 4 times over 6 years. She flirted with an old workmate which she openly admits to fancying, and he fancies her. But because of my reaction (walking out), she thinks she's an idiot as she never reacted that way, to the point of wanting to leave me. She believes that if I reacted that way after her 1 and only discretion, if she had done it 3 or 4 times like I did, then I would have left her by now. 

Maybe she thought she had carte Blanche to flirt as I had done it before, so now we're oddly equal? I've no idea.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

So first you flirted with several women. When was the last time? Did you fully reconcile? Have you stopped? How long ago?

Then after all this ended, she started flirting with her workmate, do I understand correctly? And you got so angry you walked out of the house. How long ago was that?

I'm wondering what's really going on here. Her explanation doesn't completely make sense -- she wants to leave because she wishes she stormed out of the house when she caught you flirting


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

The last time was in Feb this year. Hers was September last year (when I walked out), so mine was more recent. It was in Feb that we talked and decided whether to call it a day or work through. We chose to work through it and went to counselling. It was an experience and has definitely made me realise how lucky I am to have my family and how stupid and immature I was being.

The issue I guess is that she can't forget the past. She's forgiven me, but can't forget. She thinks she's an idiot for staying with me, as she don't believe I would have had the roles been reversed. 

Makes it even more frustrating when she says she's not unhappy with the relationship as it is, everything's fine. But little things remind her of the past (TV shows for example), and every little trigger like that sets her off. She hates the fact she can't forget it, as that's all she wants to do, but doesn't know how... and i've no idea what the answer is! 

I think a part of it is the fact that she's not convinced I won't "cheat" on her again, but there's nothing I can say or do to convince her, even though I know in my mind, it will not happen


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

It sounds to me like she detached from you because she felt like she couldn't trust you. And the fact that you repeated the behavior several times and the most recent was Feb makes this not very surprising. I don't think it's really about who walked out or didn't walk out so much as the fact that you betrayed her multiple times. I can't tell you whether reconciliation is possible or not but it's going to take an awful lot on your part to overcome what you did. You say you didn't "cheat" but you had I guess cybersex or something like that with several women. To me that's still a kind of cheating.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

Oh I don't disagree. As the counsellor said to me, any action I take that results in my partner losing my trust, is classed as cheating. I guess the frustrating thing is that I've worked tirelessly to get her to regain my trust... she says she fully trusts me again and has no problem with the relationship, but how can I reassure her it won't happen again. because of the fact there's nothing I can say or do to that, that's why she can't move on....


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

All you can do is keep showing her that you don't want to lose her and not cheat again. It's not completely in your control - the damage may be done.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

That's all I can do. Thanks for the advice.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Has she completely cut off contact with the old workmate, btw?


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## wabert (Oct 15, 2013)

RUN, I have fought this for 25 of 35 yr.s , Now it is even harder to move on. I ended up reconnecting with the girl I should have married, I m still married, I am "I think I want out" above. I should have left 25 yrs ago and not squandered 25 yrs of my life trying and begging to have the relationship I desired, my wife too works long late hrs and is more dedicated to her job than me, till now, but it is going to be too late now. you s sound just like mine yr s ago. we ve been through consiling, we ve talked for hrs and hrs, now I want out.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

John Lee said:


> Has she completely cut off contact with the old workmate, btw?


I believe so, but who knows. Unless she emails him at work. I do however, think she'll always lie to me when it comes to him. I know about 3/4 months ago, whilst I was at work, he was texting her and they spoke on the phone for an hour, with her telling him all about our marital problems. I knew they'd been talking. When I confronted her, she denied it, telling me she'd been on the phone to one of her girlfriends.

She apologised afterwards, said she told him far too much. But just got the feeling she'll never tell me the truth about him... She won't delete him as a friend on facebook either, even when I did ask if she'd mind. Said to me he's not an issue.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

mik3yc said:


> I believe so, but who knows. Unless she emails him at work. I do however, think she'll always lie to me when it comes to him. I know about 3/4 months ago, whilst I was at work, he was texting her and they spoke on the phone for an hour, with her telling him all about our marital problems. I knew they'd been talking. When I confronted her, she denied it, telling me she'd been on the phone to one of her girlfriends.
> 
> She apologised afterwards, said she told him far too much. But just got the feeling she'll never tell me the truth about him... She won't delete him as a friend on facebook either, even when I did ask if she'd mind. Said to me he's not an issue.


Well he clearly is an issue. She had at least an emotional affair with him and she's refusing to cut off contact AND lying to you about it. I have a hunch that this is part of the problem too -- she is one foot out the door partly because she is one foot with this guy. Part of why she was angry about your reaction to her relationship with this guy is that she didn't really want to give it up, and she was facing the shock of getting called on it.

If your marriage has any chance of healing you BOTH have to rebuild trust. She can never reconcile with you without cutting this guy off completely. Talking to a "former" EA partner about marital problems is a big no-no -- that's exactly the kind of thing that pushes her closer to him and further form you. 

I'm not sure the best way to approach it since you have also betrayed her trust. Maybe you need to give each other access to phones, internet, etc. I agree she absolutely should de-friend this guy on facebook. If you have a shared phone plan, check your wireless bills for calls/texts to or from his number -- you can usually do this on the company website. If not, maybe it's time you get a shared phone plan. 

I think you have to confront her about the guy while also not taking blame off yourself. You have to tell her "If there's any chance of us making this work, we BOTH have to get 100% back into the relationship, and that means cutting off all outside flirting etc. for both of us."


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

I pay for the phone bills, so i've checked it all, but that's how I found out she had spoken to him for an hour on the phone whilst I was at work. I don't think i've ever spoken to my wife for an hour, even when we were dating! But I also don't believe she's spoken to him since... if she is, then it's via email at work or on Whatsapp, which I can't trace. It's always when i'm at work on a night shift, that she does these things. When she flirted, when she spoke to this guy etc. She usually goes to bed at 9.30/10pm when i'm home. When i'm at work, she'll stay up until 1/2am every time, always online or on whatsapp.

In rebuilding the trust, we were both open with everything, she can access everything of mine, likewise with hers.

If she hasn't spoken to him in months, would it not seem a bit random for me to ask her to de-friend him? Surely he'll just text her when he finds out anyway, which kinda defeats the object.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

mik3yc said:


> She never once comes up with any solutions. Even when we went counselling, because she said I cheated and hers was a joke that went too far, she blamed all the marital problems on me. Didn't want to go counselling at all, to the point that she didn't pay a penny towards it. I forked out hundreds paying for it...
> 
> I guess i'm of the belief now that she doesn't fancy me, emotionally and/or physically but is on to too much of a good thing to walk away? But then why does she want to cuddle and snuggle up in front of the tv and in bed every night? Never anything more than that though. Not allowed to touch her in any of the places i want, that's a massive no-no.


She enjoys knowing you want it. She enjoys controlling you. You need to serve her D papers and let her know who is in charge. Her affair was as bad as yours IMO. SHe already knew him and claimed he was fit, telling her H that she is not attracted to, that she is attracted to the OM. Her not going to counseling after the counselor let her know she is not blameless for the problems in the marriage, and her not paying her share for the sessions at all are all things telling you all you need to know. 
She is using the child as a way of extorting a certain lifestyle from you. One where her needs are met and yours are not considered. You are a sucker my friend and it is time to man up and do something about it. Take charge. Do not compromise until she starts to truly meet you in the middle. A divorce would be hard on the child but good parents divorce all the time and the child will be fine. Its called an adjustment period, and with proper scheduling and love the child will adjust to a different schedule. Growing up as a witness to a miserable marriage and a controlled father is not setting a good example. You would be teaching him a greater lesson in the long run by demanding respect from your W.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

There could very well be something in that. I know I need to pay for my stupidity, but how long do I give it? For how long can she keep using my past against me? I'm willing to do whatever it takes, I love her with all my heart... Though she's of the belief that, if I truly loved her, I wouldn't have done what I did.

She knows what she did was as bad as me, but because I did it several times compared to her once, we aren't on the same playing field so to speak, as mine was so much worse....


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

mik3yc said:


> There could very well be something in that. I know I need to pay for my stupidity, but how long do I give it? For how long can she keep using my past against me? I'm willing to do whatever it takes, I love her with all my heart... Though she's of the belief that, if I truly loved her, I wouldn't have done what I did.
> 
> She knows what she did was as bad as me, but because I did it several times compared to her once, we aren't on the same playing field so to speak, as mine was so much worse....


Yeah this is a tough one, especially since your last indiscretion was more recent than hers. I mean, there was the phone call a few months ago, but the fact that there was just this one phone call makes it seem unlikely that there was something ongoing. Can't be sure though -- why does she use whatsapp, just to save money? I've never used it - does it make any record at all? Can you ask to see it?


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

Yeah I can't prove anything, that they've been talking I mean. She uses whatsapp as it can't be traced. It's a bit like bbm for blackberry, it leaves no records, no trace. I can't see who she's talking to. All I can see is when she's online/last online. And when i'm on night shifts, she's online til after 1am, every single night. Then complain to me how tired she is when I get in from work! 

She remote desktops into her work pc a lot to do work of an evening, and even more so when i'm on nights. I know she's stressed with work, so she's probably working. But who knows if she emails this other guy... she won't ever give me access to it as i've no need to look.

I feel if I bring up this guy now, she'd go straight into defensive mode and question why i'm bringing him up now, especially if they genuinely haven't spoken in so long. And especially as my indiscretion was more recent than hers.... And when I say defensive, I mean, the hump, and silent, angry treatment!


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Maybe you should ask yourself why she would go into defensive mode if she has nothing to hide.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

I guess it just seems a bit random for me to bring him up, a year later?


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

mik3yc said:


> I guess it just seems a bit random for me to bring him up, a year later?


But it's only a few months after a time when you KNOW that she lied to you about contact with this guy.


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## mik3yc (Oct 10, 2013)

Very true! I think she'll just think i'm trying to deflect all my wrongdoing. But definitely worth a difficult conversation...


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

mik3yc said:


> Very true! I think she'll just think i'm trying to deflect all my wrongdoing. But definitely worth a difficult conversation...


Yup, it won't be easy, and truth be told it's partly the bed you made. But if there's any hope at all, you both need to regain trust in each other, and that means openness.


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