# "You can't tell me why you love me"



## itsnotmeok

My wife and I are going through a rough patch and one of the issue that seems to be upsetting her the most is that supposedly I can't tell her why I love her. 

I tell here I love her everyday and she does the same. When she ask me I give her a list of things, but she says they are all service reasons and she doesn't fell like I love her for her.

I spent everyday for 3 months keeping a secret journal that gave at least one reason per day why I love her. A month or so later I created a website callled ilove____.com and wrote another list of reasons why I love her. After reading all of this she isn't mean about it but she is obviously completely dissatisfied with the reasons I give. 

I have no clue how to make her realize that I really do love her for her. Maybe I'm not coming up with the right words, but I know for sure I never want to be with anybody else and I enjoy being married to her. I'm still crazy about her even when things aren't perfect. 

Just for example here are some of the things I've written her or told her. *Can you guys tell me if I'm missing something or how to let her know she is the one for me?*

-I love that you want our family to be close, if it wasn't for you I would never have it.
-I love that you're a hard worker. It makes me proud to be with you. 
-I love you for all the things that I am not. You fill in the gaps left by shortcomings. Thank you for being you. 
-I love you because you are content, it has a calming affect on me. It's easy to love you. You are lovable.
- I love that you appreciate me
- I love that you encourage me and are proud of me
- I love that you don't over think things like I do. Thank you for dealing with me when I worry.
- I love that you enjoy cooking and baking, and I love that it's soooo much better than your mother's cooking
- You're easy on the eyes, in the true sense of the words. You have a sweet beautiful face that is comforting to look at.


----------



## tacoma

Tell her this...

Love in the Brain

Then tell her to get over it.
The whole thing is ridiculous.


----------



## r2d210

I'm thinking your going over the top with to much Beta here. You need to use the L word sparingly and it will have more meaning. Look, there are thousands of reasons why you love her. You will never pinpoint the exact, single reason. I would give that up. Actions do speak louder then words. 

Take a look at this post from Athol, on married man sex life. Sorry, you will have to paste it into your browser, I don't know how to insert a link. 

Married Man Sex Life: Sexy Moves: How To Say I Love You To A Woman

Hope that helps!


----------



## Conrad

Hey RD...

I was thinking about you the other day.

Are you getting any better mastering the preferred dishwasher loading technique?



r2d210 said:


> I'm thinking your going over the top with to much Beta here. You need to use the L word sparingly and it will have more meaning. Look, there are thousands of reasons why you love her. You will never pinpoint the exact, single reason. I would give that up. Actions do speak louder then words.
> 
> Take a look at this post from Athol, on married man sex life. Sorry, you will have to paste it into your browser, I don't know how to insert a link.
> 
> Married Man Sex Life: Sexy Moves: How To Say I Love You To A Woman
> 
> Hope that helps!


----------



## r2d210

I'm doing well! I'm a different person now! This site and my post was the beginning of a physical and mental change for me. I could write a very long post explaining it all, but I won't. Oh, I still have a ways to go, but I will never go back to being a doormat. My relationship is better and we are both very happy. I check out this site once in a while (rarely post). I read Athol's blog daily, and I take lots of notes, which I apply to my relationship. I'm no expert here, but sometimes these questions are just plain obvious! You and others from this site have changed my life so I hope I can help others make changes as well. Thanks so much for thinking about me!


----------



## Conrad

Rd,

I'm glad it's working.

I went through something similar simultaneously. My wife and I now realize we actually belong together. I always suspected it, but she was a little bit more difficult to convince.

And, of course, I didn't convince her by running the vacuum or loading the dishwasher properly.

I've seen people express skepticism that the transformation for guys like you couldn't have really been as dramatic and as sudden as they were.

It was even referred to as "The Great Dishwasher Incident of 2010"

I know that it can be just that sudden - and likely was.

There's a bit of "process" to it, but the transformative moments are easy to identify.

Stay in touch.





r2d210 said:


> I'm doing well! I'm a different person now! This site and my post was the beginning of a physical and mental change for me. I could write a very long post explaining it all, but I won't. Oh, I still have a ways to go, but I will never go back to being a doormat. My relationship is better and we are both very happy. I check out this site once in a while (rarely post). I read Athol's blog daily, and I take lots of notes, which I apply to my relationship. I'm no expert here, but sometimes these questions are just plain obvious! You and others from this site have changed my life so I hope I can help others make changes as well. Thanks so much for thinking about me!


----------



## itsnotmeok

“The fact is, I don’t know why I love you. I just do.”

Yeah I've done that, no revelation here. Good article but I've done that exact thing, although I will try again. Using a spreadsheet is not a good idea, I get that and won't try that again, but if I just say I just love you cause I love you. To her that means I don't actually know why I love her because I can't give her the reasons she it looking for. 

Does anyone know what a women wants to hear regarding this. I know it sounds bad but I just want to tell her anything that will satisfy her on this topic and we can move on.


----------



## Conrad

Use humor.

It's a fitness test.





itsnotmeok said:


> “The fact is, I don’t know why I love you. I just do.”
> 
> Yeah I've done that, no revelation here. Good article but I've done that exact thing, although I will try again. Using a spreadsheet is not a good idea, I get that and won't try that again, but if I just say I just love you cause I love you. To her that means I don't actually know why I love her because I can't give her the reasons she it looking for.
> 
> Does anyone know what a women wants to hear regarding this. I know it sounds bad but I just want to tell her anything that will satisfy her on this topic and we can move on.


----------



## r2d210

My wife still sometimes refers to me as "the old me", or "back when you were different". After understanding what had to happen, I came to a conclusion that I was not going to allow myself to be treated that way ever again. And, after reading "No more Mr. Nice Guy", (which explained to me clearly why I was acting that way), I knew I had to change. I added some Alpha and because my wife did love me but was used to getting results from me by being mean and overbearing, she understood how I felt and loved me enough to allow me to be the man! The first few months after my post was intense. I'm not going to lie. But, she has admitted to me since then that she loves me and respects me more now then before. We have had several "power" struggles since, one recently...., however we understand each others boundaries and it has worked well. I'm glad to hear your doing well. It is a process, a long process. Keep up the good work!


----------



## itsnotmeok

Forgive me I'm new to the website. Insert link to fitness test education here.


----------



## WhereAmI

I think what she's really saying is "I don't feel loved by you." Words aren't going to fix this, actions are. Do you know her love language?

It's possible that she's simply feeling insecure due to the role reversals in the M, if you are as alpha as you claim. Nevertheless, you should make sure your actions are saying "I love you."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## r2d210

There is a ton of info on this site, and here is a link to all the posts on Athol's site....

Married Man Sex Life: Fitness Tests


----------



## ren

itsnotmeok said:


> *Can you guys tell me if I'm missing something or how to let her know she is the one for me?*


I suggest you give her a gift that demonstrates your love in an undeniable way. This video should provide you with some helpful ideas:

Saturday Night Live - **** In A Box - YouTube


----------



## omega

> - I love that you don't over think things like I do.


oh really? haha.

I'm a woman and I like getting verbal (and written) stuff along those lines, I think that's pretty normal, but I say thank you and reciprocate, rather than tearing my H to shreds. 

I hate to say this but I wonder if she is looking to manufacture an excuse as to why you are not giving her all that she needs to be happy ---> set up for blaming an affair or .... whatever, on you and your inadequacies. ("You didn't make me feel loved, so I ...")


----------



## tacoma

itsnotmeok said:


> Does anyone know what a women wants to hear regarding this. I know it sounds bad but I just want to tell her anything that will satisfy her on this topic and we can move on.


No, nobody knows, nobody will ever know, she doesn`t even know what she wants to hear.

The whole exercise is irrelevant.

Move on without ever answering her question because no matter what answer you give her it`s wrong.

She doesn`t want the answer she wants you to pass the test.
I have a feeling the more you even try to answer the more you`ll fail.

Passing would be not even bothering with the question.

If she has no faith in your love for her after knowing you, marrying you, and living with you she`ll never have faith no matter what answer you give her.

So tell me, what reasons does your wife have for doubting your love for her?


----------



## Conrad

itsnotmeok said:


> Forgive me I'm new to the website. Insert link to fitness test education here.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests.html

You'll really like the OP in this thread.


----------



## itsnotmeok

I claimed to be an alpha? I didn't realize that. I'm probably fall into the nice guy role. Also, ren very funny, it's the only funny thing SNL has done since the golden age of mid 90s comics. Anyways, I do stuff for my wife all the time. We just had our anniversary and I planned out a bunch of romantic things and got her a couple nice gifts. I need to read up on love languages again, good suggestions. I think or I know there are more underlying issues that are bothering her but she seems to always come back to the "you don't know why you love me"


----------



## Trenton

Is your wife romantic? I am a romantic and these are the things I want to hear...(notice the difference in what I want to hear from what you said to your wife *is* that I want it to be about me, not what I do for him but what about me he loves...). They don't make all those cheesy romance movies with cheesy lines for nothing.

I love you because you're not afraid to go after your dreams and make them a reality.

I love you because you care about everyone around you.

I love you because you have been willing to put your dreams on hold to be a Mom of our kids and have done a great job at it.

I love you because you are a beautiful person on the inside and the outside.

I love you because you make me proud to be your husband.

I love you because you complete me.


----------



## alphaomega

Barf!

They are cheesy for a reason.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## itsnotmeok

Did you read some of the things I've told her? Many of the things are focused on what she does and who she is. 

-I love that you're a hard worker. It makes me proud to be with you. 
-I love you for all the things that I am not. You fill in the gaps left by shortcomings. Thank you for being you. 
-I love you because you are content, it has a calming affect on me. It's easy to love you. You are lovable.


----------



## alphaomega

Nothing says I love you to a woman better than tossing her down on the bed and making passionate love. You know....like monkeys do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega

Stop saying I love you already. You said it so much it has little meaning anymore. 

Next time sh asks, tell her to get naked and you will show her how much you love her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## itsnotmeok

I appreciate the comments I really do and want to hear more, but after reading through this website I'm getting the idea that the consensus on this website is to read No More Mr. Nice Guy. From what I know about the book and it's premise I see the book as more anecdotal not scientific. I'm getting off topic here but I want to know what kind of person I'm getting my advice from. again thank you for replies.


----------



## Trenton

itsnotmeok said:


> Did you read some of the things I've told her? Many of the things are focused on what she does and who she is.
> 
> -I love that you're a hard worker. It makes me proud to be with you.
> -I love you for all the things that I am not. You fill in the gaps left by shortcomings. Thank you for being you.
> -I love you because you are content, it has a calming affect on me. It's easy to love you. You are lovable.


Yeah but they didn't speak to me or her so maybe changing some wordings around to get into why she is a hard worker like...

I love that you selflessly work hard and are so good at what you do.

"hard worker" is hard to like hearing, you know?

You love her for all the things that you're not, what are those things? A stripper? A baboon? What?

"I love you because you are content" but she's obviously not content because she wants more from you.

Also...women like to be described as sexy, gorgeous, heart stopping, beautiful, etc. (not cute with nice face)


----------



## Trenton

alphaomega said:


> Barf!
> 
> They are cheesy for a reason.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It might be cheesy but it works for me. No, I don't like barf on me either.


----------



## alphaomega

A very smart man. Whom also happens to have DR. In front of his name . 

I would recommend reading the book. 9.99 on the kindle site. Download the kindle client to your handheld or computer if you don't have a kindle. It's helped a lot of men on this site.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

The math on this ... scientific or not, is pretty simple.

She is not responding to what you are doing. So ... stop doing it.

Turn it around;
"Explain to me why it is that you DON'T think I love you? Tell me what makes you feel loved."

If she pulls the old "You're supposed to know that ..." or "Figure it out."

Then she absolutely is fitness testing you.


----------



## ren

itsnotmeok said:


> I think or I know there are more underlying issues that are bothering her but she seems to always come back to the "you don't know why you love me"


Why does it even matter that you know why you love her? What is the purpose of knowing? 

Here's an idea that may explode the logic of her inquisition: When she accuses you of not knowing why you love her tell her that you know one of the reasons why you love her is that you don't know every reason why you love her. 

(Assuming this is true of course, and I'm sure if you give it some thought you will see that it is)


----------



## Trenton

itsnotmeok said:


> I appreciate the comments I really do and want to hear more, but after reading through this website I'm getting the idea that the consensus on this website is to read No More Mr. Nice Guy. From what I know about the book and it's premise I see the book as more anecdotal not scientific. I'm getting off topic here but I want to know what kind of person I'm getting my advice from. again thank you for replies.


It's a hard pushed topic by men on this forum. I personally don't buy it. I think it leads a man away from his woman or strings her along with games.

I believe in authenticity and working to find the connection.

I do think there is a need to set boundaries, etc. and if you're not doing that then that's something you have to change. I'm trying to do that in my own relationship and it is REALLY hard.

Anyway, my best advice would be for you to dig deeper into why you love your wife and think of what you're saying and how it will sound to her. They are just words but they carry a lot of meaning. 

Can you give her examples of why you love her. I mean take what you've written and hash it out even farther and place real memories to your love? This might really make her feel happy and good about the relationship.


----------



## Trenton

Oh, and write it down for her, especially if you don't normally write things down for her. Even include stick figure drawings of the memories you're chronicling next to your writing.


----------



## AFEH

r2d210 said:


> My wife still sometimes refers to me as "the old me", or "back when you were different". After understanding what had to happen, I came to a conclusion that I was not going to allow myself to be treated that way ever again. And, after reading "No more Mr. Nice Guy", (which explained to me clearly why I was acting that way), I knew I had to change. I added some Alpha and because my wife did love me but was used to getting results from me by being mean and overbearing, she understood how I felt and loved me enough to allow me to be the man! The first few months after my post was intense. I'm not going to lie. But, she has admitted to me since then that she loves me and respects me more now then before. We have had several "power" struggles since, one recently...., however we understand each others boundaries and it has worked well. I'm glad to hear your doing well. It is a process, a long process. Keep up the good work!


We can learn so much about each other and ourselves during those power struggles. In essence we learn what is fundamentally important to us as individuals in the marriage. The things we truly value, the things that make us the unique individuals we are and the things that we will not compromise, that we will not sacrifice our happiness for in order for our partner to be happy. Power struggles will and do happen in long term marriages, it’s typically when the marriage is adjusting to changed circumstances. They are an “adjustment” like tectonic plates shifting to reduce pressure that’s built up over time. As long as the power struggles remain respectful and are handled with dignity good does come out of them, including new boundaries!

A marriage is never static. It is constantly changing. Just that most of the time we have our old spectacles on, we stay with past imprints and images and just don’t see the changes that are happening right under our noses.


----------



## AFEH

itsnotmeok said:


> My wife and I are going through a rough patch and one of the issue that seems to be upsetting her the most is that supposedly I can't tell her why I love her.
> 
> I tell here I love her everyday and she does the same. When she ask me I give her a list of things, but she says they are all service reasons and she doesn't fell like I love her for her.
> 
> I spent everyday for 3 months keeping a secret journal that gave at least one reason per day why I love her. A month or so later I created a website callled ilove____.com and wrote another list of reasons why I love her. After reading all of this she isn't mean about it but she is obviously completely dissatisfied with the reasons I give.
> 
> I have no clue how to make her realize that I really do love her for her. Maybe I'm not coming up with the right words, but I know for sure I never want to be with anybody else and I enjoy being married to her. I'm still crazy about her even when things aren't perfect.
> 
> Just for example here are some of the things I've written her or told her. *Can you guys tell me if I'm missing something or how to let her know she is the one for me?*
> 
> -I love that you want our family to be close, if it wasn't for you I would never have it.
> -I love that you're a hard worker. It makes me proud to be with you.
> -I love you for all the things that I am not. You fill in the gaps left by shortcomings. Thank you for being you.
> -I love you because you are content, it has a calming affect on me. It's easy to love you. You are lovable.
> - I love that you appreciate me
> - I love that you encourage me and are proud of me
> - I love that you don't over think things like I do. Thank you for dealing with me when I worry.
> - I love that you enjoy cooking and baking, and I love that it's soooo much better than your mother's cooking
> - You're easy on the eyes, in the true sense of the words. You have a sweet beautiful face that is comforting to look at.


You could always mirror your wife’s behaviour. Ask her why she loves you. When she tells you say with a smile on your face “Hmmmm. That doesn’t feel like you love me. Tell me another reason why you love me”. Repeat as necessary.


----------



## alphaomega

Trenton said:


> It's a hard pushed topic by men on this forum. I personally don't buy it. I think it leads a man away from his woman or strings her along with games.
> 
> I believe in authenticity and working to find the connection.
> 
> I do think there is a need to set boundaries, etc. and if you're not doing that then that's something you have to change. I'm trying to do that in my own relationship and it is REALLY hard.
> 
> Anyway, my best advice would be for you to dig deeper into why you love your wife and think of what you're saying and how it will sound to her. They are just words but they carry a lot of meaning.
> 
> Can you give her examples of why you love her. I mean take what you've written and hash it out even farther and place real memories to your love? This might really make her feel happy and good about the relationship.


Oh god. Not this again.

The boundary advise is good. Oh hey! It's called Manning up.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## golfergirl

AFEH said:


> You could always mirror your wife’s behaviour. Ask her why she loves you. When she tells you say with a smile on your face “Hmmmm. That doesn’t feel like you love me. Tell me another reason why you love me”. Repeat as necessary.


How about telling your wife, 'I love you even though you're f**king obnoxious asking the same question over and over.' I'd find her behavior totally obnoxious.
How about stuff like:
When I look over at you first thing in the morning and you're snuggled under the covers, messy hair, no make-up and I feel I'm the luckiest man in the world, I know there is no one else I'd want to spend the rest of my life with.

Try saying it without saying words 'I love you' and say one thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

I’m currently seeing passive aggression nearly everywhere, or at least I look to see if it’s a possibility. But let’s consider the possibility that your wife is a passive aggressive and see what comes out.

It obviously hurts you when your wife tells you she doesn’t feel that you love her. And even though you express your love in different ways she continues to tell you that she doesn’t feel loved by you and therefore she continues to hurt you. And your mind is somewhat fecked, you just can’t work out what’s going on, it makes no sense to you and so you search the internet, find TAM and post your questions here.

Feeling confused (mind fecked) and hurt and not knowing why is a sign that your wife is a passive aggressive. So PA is definitely a possibility. And if it is really there then she really is out to hurt and to see you hurt. Her reason for her “revenge” may be based on fact, fiction or part fact and part fiction. But in essence she is very much likely bitter and resentful for something you either did or didn’t do in the past. And she’s out to get you for it. It could be something from last week, last year or years and years ago.

If it is PA what can you do about it? I guess you could learn about it and see if it really is there. You could ask your wife if there’s anything in the past that she hasn’t forgiven you for and “hope” for an honest answer. But if she is a passive aggressive it is very doubtful you will get her openness and honesty. But it’s worth a shot.



And always bear in mind a lot of women don't fight by the Queensbury Rules. They’re more than capable of making their rules up to suit the situation as they go along and can change them day by day or even from one minute to the next. They just don’t fight fair and I reckon us men should learn and accept that and try and shrug our shoulders and handle it with humour.


----------



## nice777guy

Tell her those jeans make her butt look big. THAT should change the subject!


----------



## tacoma

So tell me, what reasons does your wife have for doubting your love for her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## heartsbeating

golfergirl said:


> When I look over at you first thing in the morning and you're snuggled under the covers, messy hair, no make-up and I feel I'm the luckiest man in the world, I know there is no one else I'd want to spend the rest of my life with.


ha, will you marry me? 

I think golfergirl has a good suggestion about telling her specific things that you notice about her that you love without necessarily saying "I love you." I'd also suggest perhaps letting her know these things in the moment. With this example, you could stroke her hair in the morning and quietly tell her this as she wakes. Being unexpected helps make the heart flutter. It does need to be sincere though and not just saying what you think she wants to hear.

In saying that, when I read your examples I thought they were lovely. I do agree with some points already made by Therealbrighteyes about using terms such as "hard worker". Like good art, music and poetry, a certain feminine approach is usually needed to express these types of thoughts and emotions. I think that is what she wants from you. You might love what she does and what she represents in your life together but what is it about HER as a woman, as an entity separate to you, that has you aching to be near her? Scratch even further beneath the surface of your thoughts to think beyond her actions and really FEEL who she is to you. I don't know how else to explain this. 

And again in saying all of this, maybe she does actually need to get over it and realize you just love her for her. The reason might actually be something unexplained, it's more of a feeling. That you like many things about her and what she does, but the reason why you love her isn't something that can be easily communicated. It's just something she needs to accept. You feel it. She feels it. End of story.

Then throw her on the bed and remove her undies with your teeth. Best wishes! 

..... I do also wonder why she feels insecure in your love. Is it related to her self-esteem? Or is it because of behavioral patterns between you?


----------



## alphaomega

Actually......

Golfer has the exact correct response. The first one, not the second one.

Then you will pass that fitness test!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

How long ago did this start? Is it recent? Is there another man feeding her love lines? This last blindsided question is definitely one you should ask her repeatedly to see how she reacts and what your gut feelings tell you about her answer.


----------



## Hicks

You will never come up with the right "words" to answer this challenge. I will say it again, you will never come up with the right words to answer this challenge. Know this. And once you know this you know that the answer to your question is to stop trying to find the words to say.

Rather, find the actions to show her that you love her. What is her love language? You want to do things to make her FEEL loved as opposed to logically listing the reasons that you love her (which will never make a woman feel loved).

You are making a big mistake in trying to jump through a hoop that you wife presents to you that has subjective answer. This is your wife's way of controlling the relationship and asserting power over you. She holds all the cards and has it set up that this will be permanent (since there will never be a right answer).

What YOU have to do is define the nature of love in a marriage and live by that, and expect her to live like that. Take control here.


----------



## Kobo

Next time:

"You know, I was just asking myself the same thing" then go out to garage.


----------



## Kobo

Trenton said:


> Yeah but they didn't speak to me or her so maybe changing some wordings around to get into why she is a hard worker like...
> 
> I love that you selflessly work hard and are so good at what you do.
> 
> "hard worker" is hard to like hearing, you know?
> 
> You love her for all the things that you're not, what are those things? A stripper? A baboon? What?
> 
> "I love you because you are content" but she's obviously not content because she wants more from you.
> 
> Also...women like to be described as sexy, gorgeous, heart stopping, beautiful, etc. (not cute with nice face)


She asked "Why do YOU love me" not "Can you tell me why 'I' think you should love me". If he changes things around, says things that aren't genuine to him then he's just being another PUA right? Gaming her? We all know that's a big no no around here


----------



## Halien

golfergirl said:


> How about telling your wife, 'I love you even though you're f**king obnoxious asking the same question over and over.' I'd find her behavior totally obnoxious.
> How about stuff like:
> When I look over at you first thing in the morning and you're snuggled under the covers, messy hair, no make-up and I feel I'm the luckiest man in the world, I know there is no one else I'd want to spend the rest of my life with.
> 
> Try saying it without saying words 'I love you' and say one thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It sounds like she wants you to love her for her unique traits, not the way she behaves. Behaviors can be mimicked, but it just sounds like she wants to know that there is something uniquely her that you love. Its funny that we men often have low tolerance for these seemingly unimportant needs, yet when we lose our sanity in a midlife crisis, we want our parther to respect our own vague needs.

Think about the way she moves when she does something. You'll notice things that make her stand out, and make you feel like everything is okay in the world. Or her smell. The cute habits. Even words she uses around those she loves. The way her eyes moisten when she watches a certain type of scene in a movie, or watches something with the kids.


----------



## wemogirl

Halien said:


> *It sounds like she wants you to love her for her unique traits, not the way she behaves. Behaviors can be mimicked, but it just sounds like she wants to know that there is something uniquely her that you love.* Its funny that we men often have low tolerance for these seemingly unimportant needs, yet when we lose our sanity in a midlife crisis, we want our parther to respect our own vague needs.
> 
> Think about the way she moves when she does something. You'll notice things that make her stand out, and make you feel like everything is okay in the world. Or her smell. The cute habits. Even words she uses around those she loves. The way her eyes moisten when she watches a certain type of scene in a movie, or watches something with the kids.


OP, I can't tell you what your wife wants to hear. But Halien is spot on here in his observation. In the past, when I have asked my DH why he loves me, the first thing he said is that he didn't know how to answer that question. If that doesn't make a girl feel special, I don't know what will.  Eventually I got him to tell me that he loves me because I'm nice to him and he likes my sense of humor. So to me that means I am replaceable by anyone who makes him laugh and is nice.

Give her specific traits about her that you love. 


> I love you for all the things that I am not. You fill in the gaps left by shortcomings.


This is good but could be made better if you tell her what gaps she fills.

Maybe some of these guys are right and she's just messing with your mind. Hopefully not, though. I hope you can figure it out.


----------



## Kobo

wemogirl said:


> If that doesn't make a girl feel special, I don't know what will.  Eventually I got him to tell me that he loves me because I'm nice to him and he likes my sense of humor. So to me that means I am replaceable by anyone who makes him laugh and is nice.


So he tells you truthfully why he loves you and you turn it into a negative. I'm sure that makes him feel "special"


----------



## wemogirl

Kobo said:


> So he tells you truthfully why he loves you and you turn it into a negative. I'm sure that makes him feel "special"


Nope, he has no idea how his comments made me feel. We just don't talk about it anymore. It took him about 20 minutes to come up with "because you are nice to me". I'm not going to go through that again. We don't talk about much of anything anymore. 

I think this disconnect is the crux of the OP's problem (if his wife isn't playing him and trying to fitness test him). I'm not saying the OP is doing anything wrong. I'm just saying that maybe it's not enough. Just like my DH didn't say anything "wrong". I just needed to hear more from him and still do but I certainly won't ask him again. So I'm in the process of changing my expectations and trying to find other activities to help fill the void. 

Just because you're not doing anything wrong doesn't mean you're doing everything right.


----------



## Deejo

Don't get more right, than this here ...



Hicks said:


> You will never come up with the right "words" to answer this challenge. I will say it again, you will never come up with the right words to answer this challenge. Know this. And once you know this you know that the answer to your question is to stop trying to find the words to say.
> 
> Rather, find the actions to show her that you love her. What is her love language? You want to do things to make her FEEL loved as opposed to logically listing the reasons that you love her (which will never make a woman feel loved).
> 
> You are making a big mistake in trying to jump through a hoop that you wife presents to you that has subjective answer. This is your wife's way of controlling the relationship and asserting power over you. She holds all the cards and has it set up that this will be permanent (since there will never be a right answer).
> 
> What YOU have to do is define the nature of love in a marriage and live by that, and expect her to live like that. Take control here.


----------



## Trenton

You either dig deep and think of this through her perspective using your true deep feelings to communicate with her and ultimately see this as an opportunity to connect with her within her mind and heart which is more likely to bring you closer together

-or-

You do as manning up dictates and see her as a game to be conquered and this as one more test among a million other tests that all come from a struggle for control and her desire to feel you are indeed a penis that can lead a pack

If you ask me, the later is about your own struggles with your own ego and skeletons and the first is a sincere connection to build something meaningful between the two of you. I might just be an insane lunatic, passive aggressive, borderline personality disordered freak who can't see my own shadow but I don't think so or care and, quite frankly, the later sucks as it lands the two of you alone in your own hearts.


----------



## tacoma

Kobo said:


> So he tells you truthfully why he loves you and you turn it into a negative. I'm sure that makes him feel "special"


This is why I keep telling the OP there is no answer to this question.

The question is irrelevant.

His wifes attitude is the problem.

I don`t want to piss anyone off but I look around this forum every day and I know the answer to most peoples problems here.

STOP LETTING YOUR LOVER/HUSBAND/WIFE **** ON YOU!!
STOP,STOP,STOP!!

Sorry, I had to get that off my chest but seriously 99% of the problems on this site are immediately fixed in one way or another with this simple action.


----------



## wemogirl

tacoma said:


> This is why I keep telling the OP there is no answer to this question.
> 
> The question is irrelevant.
> 
> His wifes attitude is the problem.
> 
> I don`t want to piss anyone off but I look around this forum every day and I know the answer to most peoples problems here.
> 
> STOP LETTING YOUR LOVER/HUSBAND/WIFE **** ON YOU!!
> STOP,STOP,STOP!!
> 
> Sorry, I had to get that off my chest but seriously 99% of the problems on this site are immediately fixed in one way or another with this simple action.


Who decides the question is irrelevant? And what is the definition of someone ****ing on you? Am I ****ing on my husband because I asked him why he married me or is he ****ing on me because he makes me feel like I'm at the bottom of his priority list and as a result I have to ask him why he married me? And how exactly do you stop letting your SO **** on you? 

My husband could get a housekeeper and get from her what he gets from me except sex (although I guess there are some housekeepers out there who would do that, too). We don't have any real emotional connection anymore because he's made it clear that that is not high on his list of what's important even though it's important to me. Although this last week has been better, but I had to miscarry a baby to get my DH to take time off work and to hold me when I cried.

I personally think the OP has more than adequately answered his wife's question. I'd be thrilled with a list half as long as what the OP gave his wife. But *she* isn't satisified with the answer. How do we know for sure she's ****ing on him? Who asked earlier why she's so insecure about his love for her? I think it's a very important, legitimate question and may be the real reason behind her continuing to ask for validation. 

Or maybe she is being manipulative. :scratchhead:


----------



## Pandakiss

i have been following this thread, and my thinking is, the reasons you love me are personal. telling me you love me because, i can really get that spot out, or you love me because we never have ring-around-the tub/toilet.

i want you love me because, my eyes are the perfect shade of "dot dot dot". 

you love me because i laugh a little to loud or a hot chick with a old lady laugh.

you love me because i give the best hugs.

you love me because i always smell good, even after a work out.

maybe even, you like that special chicken dish, or nobody makes mashed potatoes like you. [the difference is its one thing not just a basic, you good and every thing.]

i would want personal things you and only you know and love. not acts of service, a maid can clean, a mechinic can fix a car. the washing machine washes the clothes.

i had no say in my genitic make up, or any control about having cute kids.


----------



## tacoma

wemogirl said:


> Who asked earlier why she's so insecure about his love for her? I think it's a very important, legitimate question and may be the real reason behind her continuing to ask for validation.


I did and haven`t gotten an answer yet



> Or maybe she is being manipulative. :scratchhead:


Without an answer to the question of whether the OP`s wife has reason to doubt his love for her this is the only conclusion I can come to.


----------



## Kobo

Trenton said:


> You either dig deep and think of this through her perspective using your true deep feelings to communicate with her and ultimately see this as an opportunity to connect with her within her mind and heart which is more likely to bring you closer together
> 
> -or-
> 
> You do as manning up dictates and see her as a game to be conquered and this as one more test among a million other tests that all come from a struggle for control and her desire to feel you are indeed a penis that can lead a pack
> 
> If you ask me, the later is about your own struggles with your own ego and skeletons and the first is a sincere connection to build something meaningful between the two of you. I might just be an insane lunatic, passive aggressive, borderline personality disordered freak who can't see my own shadow but I don't think so or care and, quite frankly, the later sucks as it lands the two of you alone in your own hearts.



So everytime a man disagrees with you it's about "manning up". OK.

The issue hear is you are asking the wrong question for the answers you want. You can't dictate to someone why they love you. You are looking for attributes that make you special. That is a totally different question than why "I" love you. I may or may not love you because you have beautiful eyes. I may or may not love you because of your smile. I may or not love you because of how a$$ moves as you walk accross the room. Some people may fall in love with those things. I love my wife because we fit. We are awesome together. She is gorgeous but that's not why I love her. She's goofy in a good way but that's not why I love her. She is one of the kindest people I know but that is not why I love her. I love her because we fit together perfectly. Now that is not some specific list of attributes that you're looking for but it is the truth. I could give her the list of attributes that she desires if she asks that question but it wouldn't be the true reason I love her.


----------



## Kobo

Pandakiss said:


> i have been following this thread, and my thinking is, the reasons you love me are personal. telling me you love me because, i can really get that spot out, or you love me because we never have ring-around-the tub/toilet.
> 
> i want you love me because, my eyes are the perfect shade of "dot dot dot".
> 
> you love me because i laugh a little to loud or a hot chick with a old lady laugh.
> 
> you love me because i give the best hugs.
> 
> you love me because i always smell good, even after a work out.
> 
> maybe even, you like that special chicken dish, or nobody makes mashed potatoes like you. [the difference is its one thing not just a basic, you good and every thing.]
> 
> i would want personal things you and only you know and love. not acts of service, a maid can clean, a mechinic can fix a car. the washing machine washes the clothes.
> 
> i had no say in my genitic make up, or any control about having cute kids.



But see this is what "You" want. You can't dictate to someone why they love you. I know every lady wants to be their own special snowflake but the fact of the matter is if your husband has dated a good amount of ladies he met some with your same attributes that he didn't fall head over heels for. If you think about it you really don't want a man that falls in love with you because of your physical attributes. What happens when those curves get a little bit wider, those eyes have crows feet surrounding them, pain takes away your ability to where high heels, cancer takes your breasts, your hair starts graying, etc. If your man is showing you he loves you then take him at his word that he loves you because of the reason he says. You are special to him. If you want a laundry list of your good attributes then ask for that.


----------



## Halien

Kobo said:


> But see this is what "You" want. You can't dictate to someone why they love you. I know every lady wants to be their own special snowflake but the fact of the matter is if your husband has dated a good amount of ladies he met some with your same attributes that he didn't fall head over heels for. If you think about it you really don't want a man that falls in love with you because of your physical attributes. What happens when those curves get a little bit wider, those eyes have crows feet surrounding them, pain takes away your ability to where high heels, cancer takes your breasts, your hair starts graying, etc. If your man is showing you he loves you then take him at his word that he loves you because of the reason he says. You are special to him. If you want a laundry list of your good attributes then ask for that.


I don't think its as simple as just wanting a laundry list of good attributes. Most times, there are things about a guy's wife that make him feel like he has come home to a great place when he sees her after a time apart. These attributes are there. We just don't know how important they are to some women. For some women, there may be other ways that their love language is expressed. It comes down to your willingness to learn their love language, just like they will usually try to learn ours. My dad used to warn us boys all the time. He said that if you do not learn the language of your woman, be careful, because there are a hundred other guys who already speak the language she wants to hear, and she just has to meet one of them at the right place and the right time.


----------



## Trenton

Kobo said:


> So everytime a man disagrees with you it's about "manning up". OK.
> 
> The issue hear is you are asking the wrong question for the answers you want. You can't dictate to someone why they love you. You are looking for attributes that make you special. That is a totally different question than why "I" love you. I may or may not love you because you have beautiful eyes. I may or may not love you because of your smile. I may or not love you because of how a$$ moves as you walk accross the room. Some people may fall in love with those things. I love my wife because we fit. We are awesome together. She is gorgeous but that's not why I love her. She's goofy in a good way but that's not why I love her. She is one of the kindest people I know but that is not why I love her. I love her because we fit together perfectly. Now that is not some specific list of attributes that you're looking for but it is the truth. I could give her the list of attributes that she desires if she asks that question but it wouldn't be the true reason I love her.


If it's not the true reason then I wouldn't list it but I wonder if you're playing with semantics here. Telling what you wrote above would do everything she needs and according to you be 100% accurate so what's the damage in saying that? " I know you're beautiful, your ass turns me on when you walk and you're one of the kindest people I know but that's not why I love you, I love you because we just fit." 

Does it always have to be a battle or some unwritten code? I only counter the manning up theory in most threads here because it's constantly brought up as if it's the default setting in every relationship and I don't believe that. Like you, I am being honest. If you ask me it's ending up with a lot of men alone.

Can't a wife reach out for assurance that the love between the two is safe, secure and still existing without having to worry about the dude's ego? If she's asking the question you can bet she's doing it for herself so why not love her enough to figure out why and answer her.


----------



## golfergirl

Trenton said:


> If it's not the true reason then I wouldn't list it but I wonder if you're playing with semantics here. Telling what you wrote above would do everything she needs and according to you be 100% accurate so what's the damage in saying that? " I know you're beautiful, your ass turns me on when you walk and you're one of the kindest people I know but that's not why I love you, I love you because we just fit."
> 
> Does it always have to be a battle or some unwritten code? I only counter the manning up theory in most threads here because it's constantly brought up as if it's the default setting in every relationship and I don't believe that. Like you, I am being honest. If you ask me it's ending up with a lot of men alone.
> 
> Can't a wife reach out for assurance that the love between the two is safe, secure and still existing without having to worry about the dude's ego? If she's asking the question you can bet she's doing it for herself so why not love her enough to figure out why and answer her.


She can reach out for assurance. But when her H goes above and beyond to provide that and keeps getting told wrong answer, continuing to nag is harming the relationship. 'I love you because....' Is turning into, 'why do I love you?????'. continuing to press is doing more harm than good. H is here W isn't though, so what do you do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jayde

Itsnotme . . . in the past couple days, my wife and I have been reading the 5 Love Languages and found it helpful. One of the languages is Words of Affirmation - whcih you are doing... but if she is not a Words of Affirmation person, they won't mean much. Google this and do the on-line test (your wife too) and see what happens. We also took the test answering for the other person, just to see how well/or not we 'guessed' the other's love language. Yes, this sounds cheesy - but at least a good converstaion starter. My wife scored very high on the Words of Affirmation (10/12) and I scored a 1/12 . . . so, no matter what she 'says' to me, it doesn't mean a whole lot. Give it a shot.

And the man-up and other adivce on here is all good too. If it was as simple as one good suggestion, TAM wouldn't be here. And what would we all do all day? (Stay in bed with our spouses?) Good luck.


----------



## AFEH

Kobo said:


> But see this is what "You" want. You can't dictate to someone why they love you. I know every lady wants to be their own special snowflake but the fact of the matter is if your husband has dated a good amount of ladies he met some with your same attributes that he didn't fall head over heels for. If you think about it you really don't want a man that falls in love with you because of your physical attributes. What happens when those curves get a little bit wider, those eyes have crows feet surrounding them, pain takes away your ability to where high heels, cancer takes your breasts, your hair starts graying, etc. If your man is showing you he loves you then take him at his word that he loves you because of the reason he says. You are special to him. If you want a laundry list of your good attributes then ask for that.


Spot on. It’s also in part to do with the world they create around them by doing what they do and we like and love that world and want to live in it with them. We’ll defend that world. It’s in part to do with them just being by our side on our path through life and putting up with our quirks. We love them for that too. And of course us being men their looks will have a lot to do with it because we have that big attraction to them, and we love them for that as well. And if they are in trouble in anyway, ill, parents problems we love that about them as well because then we can be their knight in shining armour. I think it’s also to do with commitment. I really did commit big time to my wife, it really was until death us do part and that was in my head in the first 10 seconds I saw her for the very first time. We love that about them as well. That they are the one, the only one we commit ourselves to. It’s a pity when your woman plays you and takes advantage of and abuses your love for them.


----------



## TheMizz...erable

Good God, reminds me of the talk I had with my wife in July. I told her I still love her. She said what do you love about me? My answer off the top of my head was because you're my wife and we've been married for 13 years. Well she held that against me the next time we talked. She said I couldn't tell her why I loved her(I thought of specific reasons after that when I had time to think) so that told her I don't know her as a person. WTH???


----------



## AFEH

TheMizz...erable said:


> Good God, reminds me of the talk I had with my wife in July. I told her I still love her. She said what do you love about me? My answer off the top of my head was because you're my wife and we've been married for 13 years. Well she held that against me the next time we talked. She said I couldn't tell her why I loved her(I thought of specific reasons after that when I had time to think) so that told her I don't know her as a person. WTH???


It's a game some women play when they want to hurt you or they are setting you up for something. Mine said once all I wanted her for was for sex, I told her her food was very good as well.


----------



## Halien

Manning up may be great advice for the OP, but sometimes you have to take the wife's question at face value and ask yourself why she is making this particular question a very big deal. I mean, this is a pretty ominous question that she is asking. There are so many ways that this question could potentially be reworded. 'She is fixating on her possible belief that the OP could be happy with any of a hundred different women.' 'She is possibly saying that she thinks he doesn't really love her, and never did.' 'She is possibly asking him if the whole relationship is just built on a marriage of convenience.' 

There could be many different reasons for asking this question of him, but it is disturbing that one of the first steps men or women will use to re-write marital history and divorce is incompatability, or the belief that the two of them never had anything special. Telling her to 'get over it', as some have advised, would only support this re-writing. I'm only suggesting that manning up might be secondary to the need to find out why she is asking this question.


----------



## Kobo

Halien said:


> I don't think its as simple as just wanting a laundry list of good attributes. Most times, there are things about a guy's wife that make him feel like he has come home to a great place when he sees her after a time apart. These attributes are there. We just don't know how important they are to some women. For some women, there may be other ways that their love language is expressed. It comes down to your willingness to learn their love language, just like they will usually try to learn ours. My dad used to warn us boys all the time. He said that if you do not learn the language of your woman, be careful, because there are a hundred other guys who already speak the language she wants to hear, and she just has to meet one of them at the right place and the right time.


Yes, I understand it is important to some women to hear it. Which is why I suggested they ask a different questions. I can answer the question exactly how they want to hear it but that doesn't make my answer true. It just makes my wife happy. If that's my goal fine. If my goal is to answer her truthfully then I must say it with my own truth not hers. This should not be a reason for her to have her feelings hurt. If my love for you does not come from your perfect lips then I shouldn't say it does.


----------



## Kobo

Trenton said:


> If it's not the true reason then I wouldn't list it but I wonder if you're playing with semantics here. Telling what you wrote above would do everything she needs and according to you be 100% accurate so what's the damage in saying that? " I know you're beautiful, your ass turns me on when you walk and you're one of the kindest people I know but that's not why I love you, I love you because we just fit."
> 
> Does it always have to be a battle or some unwritten code? I only counter the manning up theory in most threads here because it's constantly brought up as if it's the default setting in every relationship and I don't believe that. Like you, I am being honest. If you ask me it's ending up with a lot of men alone.
> 
> Can't a wife reach out for assurance that the love between the two is safe, secure and still existing without having to worry about the dude's ego? If she's asking the question you can bet she's doing it for herself so why not love her enough to figure out why and answer her.



There is no damage in saying it but it is not the true reason I love her. Like I said, ask the correct question. Don't you think that I hold dear the reason that I am in love with my wife? Why should I have to sugar coat that and spice it up so that she can hear what she wants to hear. I praise her on those attributes outside of answering this question so why can't I be truthful when the question is asked?


----------



## Kobo

AFEH said:


> That they are the one, the only one we commit ourselves to.


Isn't it amazing when you feel that. There is just something there that is unexplainable. Something that goes beyond looks and how funny or cool they are. My explaination is that we "fit". That's why I love her. If asked that question I need to be able to express that without worrying about wether or not I put in enough compliments. My wife needs to love me enough that I am comfortable being open and truthful with her at all times.


----------



## AFEH

Kobo said:


> Isn't it amazing when you feel that. There is just something there that is unexplainable. Something that goes beyond looks and how funny or cool they are. My explaination is that we "fit". That's why I love her. If asked that question I need to be able to express that without worrying about wether or not I put in enough compliments. My wife needs to love me enough that I am comfortable being open and truthful with her at all times.


It’s that spirit in the machine thing, the magical mystery. It’s like they are “unknowable”. We can’t fathom them out, what it is that makes them tick and that’s probably why we can’t give good account as far as they are concerned of why we love the them. And sometimes I swear blind the last thing they want us to know is what does make them tick.

But it is so very important that both spouses do actually feel loved otherwise they will feel insecure and I think it a duty of each to find out what the others language of love is and become an unthinking expert of using that language when communicating with their partner.

It's very different when the magics gone, the mystery is explained.


----------



## Deejo

Wait ... I thought telling her what she wants to hear was game playing and manipulation?

:FIREdevil:


----------



## wemogirl

OP, if someone else asked you why you love your wife, what would you say to them?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

TheMizz...erable said:


> Good God, reminds me of the talk I had with my wife in July. I told her I still love her. She said what do you love about me? My answer off the top of my head was because you're my wife and we've been married for 13 years. Well she held that against me the next time we talked. She said I couldn't tell her why I loved her(I thought of specific reasons after that when I had time to think) so that told her I don't know her as a person. WTH???


It can be frustrating when you are expected to answer a question, that is often out of the blue, with the same level of detail that she provides having thought through the question all day. 

One evening, after stuttering out a pretty bad answer to a question like this and then getting the evil eye, I asked how long she had been thinking about it. When she said since morning, I told her I would think about it for the next 12 hours and give her an answer then. After a quick shocked look, she smiled and said no need.


----------



## Enchantment

jayde said:


> Itsnotme . . . in the past couple days, my wife and I have been reading the 5 Love Languages and found it helpful. One of the languages is Words of Affirmation - whcih you are doing... but if she is not a Words of Affirmation person, they won't mean much. Google this and do the on-line test (your wife too) and see what happens. We also took the test answering for the other person, just to see how well/or not we 'guessed' the other's love language. Yes, this sounds cheesy - but at least a good converstaion starter. My wife scored very high on the Words of Affirmation (10/12) and I scored a 1/12 . . . *so, no matter what she 'says' to me, it doesn't mean a whole lot*. Give it a shot.
> 
> And the man-up and other adivce on here is all good too. If it was as simple as one good suggestion, TAM wouldn't be here. And what would we all do all day? (Stay in bed with our spouses?) Good luck.


It also means that you may have to work a bit harder to meet your wife's love language, since it is not your own, just like she may have to do for
yours. Because what YOU say to her, does mean a lot to her.


----------



## Conrad

Tall Average Guy said:


> It can be frustrating when you are expected to answer a question, that is often out of the blue, with the same level of detail that she provides having thought through the question all day.
> 
> One evening, after stuttering out a pretty bad answer to a question like this and then getting the evil eye, I asked how long she had been thinking about it. When she said since morning, I told her I would think about it for the next 12 hours and give her an answer then. After a quick shocked look, she smiled and said no need.


You get an A-plus on that particular Fitness Test.

Congrats


----------



## Pandakiss

Kobo said:


> But see this is what "You" want. You can't dictate to someone why they love you. I know every lady wants to be their own special snowflake but the fact of the matter is if your husband has dated a good amount of ladies he met some with your same attributes that he didn't fall head over heels for. If you think about it you really don't want a man that falls in love with you because of your physical attributes. What happens when those curves get a little bit wider, those eyes have crows feet surrounding them, pain takes away your ability to where high heels, cancer takes your breasts, your hair starts graying, etc. If your man is showing you he loves you then take him at his word that he loves you because of the reason he says. You are special to him. If you want a laundry list of your good attributes then ask for that.



i should have used quotes, but i was lazy....good points,but it was just an idea of personal things about me, not acts of service or tasks to do in everyday life.

and i wasnt thinking of "why you fell in love me"..but why you love me now. now reasons are a goofy laugh,because sometimes those things that annoyed us in the first year are cute and adorable in year 5 and a different appreation for them in year 10.

im pretty simple, i like being told i look great with out make-up, or that i dont need all the make-up i wear. plus my love language is gifts.

but thats just me....but i just wanted to give examples on a personal side. 

it wasnt a wish list....but nothing wrong with wanting to be told just {at least} one reason why you are special in the eyes of your husband/wife.

IDK..im told everyday, oh i like your shoes, or dress, or hair, or cute kids by strangers...so i like very personal reason(s) from husband.


----------



## Trenton

golfergirl said:


> She can reach out for assurance. But when her H goes above and beyond to provide that and keeps getting told wrong answer, continuing to nag is harming the relationship. 'I love you because....' Is turning into, 'why do I love you?????'. continuing to press is doing more harm than good. H is here W isn't though, so what do you do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree and it makes me think there is more going on in this case. It could be any amount of things.


----------



## Trenton

Kobo said:


> Isn't it amazing when you feel that. There is just something there that is unexplainable. Something that goes beyond looks and how funny or cool they are. My explaination is that we "fit". That's why I love her. If asked that question I need to be able to express that without worrying about wether or not I put in enough compliments. My wife needs to love me enough that I am comfortable being open and truthful with her at all times.


Yeah, that's the beautiful stuff that I don't think is said very often by most guys. Maybe because it makes them appear vulnerable? I wouldn't think so in a secure relationship but a marriage forum is not going to be a hot spot for that type of relationship to begin with so it becomes a matter of which came first the chicken or the egg. 

Maybe in a secure relationship it doesn't need to be said? No idea. I'm in a rocky relationship myself and trying to figure it out. I do know if I felt my husband was gaming me, and sometimes I do, it turns me off and pisses me off both at the same time.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Wait ... I thought telling her what she wants to hear was game playing and manipulation?
> 
> :FIREdevil:


If you're being honest with what you say it is not manipulation or game playing, it is sincerity.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> If you're being honest with what you say it is not manipulation or game playing, it is sincerity.


If you find my honest sincerity lacking or insufficient, despite the fact that it is sincere to me, such as in this case, then we haven't moved the goal posts much, have we?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> If you find my honest sincerity lacking or insufficient, despite the fact that it is sincere to me, such as in this case, then we haven't moved the goal posts much, have we?


Sincerity will be believed a lot more if their isn't a history of manipulation and head games. Just sayin'.


----------



## Deejo

itsnotmeok said:


> I spent everyday for 3 months keeping a secret journal that gave at least one reason per day why I love her. A month or so later I created a website callled ilove____.com and wrote another list of reasons why I love her. After reading all of this she isn't mean about it but she is obviously completely dissatisfied with the reasons I give.
> 
> I have no clue how to make her realize that I really do love her for her. Maybe I'm not coming up with the right words, but I know for sure I never want to be with anybody else and I enjoy being married to her. I'm still crazy about her even when things aren't perfect.


Are you presuming that is the case with itsnotmeok? She doesn't find him sincere because he plays 'games'?

Is it game playing to suggest that he express himself in a manner in which his wife does feel loved? Whether he 'sincerely' believes it or not?

I'm not saying she's wrong and he's right. I'm saying the way they are interacting isn't strengthening their bond. If he's doing his best, and his best isn't good enough for her ... then his best doesn't matter, does it?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Conrad said:


> You get an A-plus on that particular Fitness Test.
> 
> Congrats


I will admit I got more than a sticker from her that day.

And a couple of days later, I leaned in from behind her and whispered a couple of the reasons I loved her into her ear. She positively floated on air the rest of the day.


----------



## Trenton

Tall Average Guy said:


> I will admit I got more than a sticker from her that day.
> 
> And a couple of days later, I leaned in from behind her and whispered a couple of the reasons I loved her into her ear. She positively floated on air the rest of the day.


If you and I had the same convo I would say, "Great! I look forward to 12 hours from now."... and I'd be curious to see what you came up with and grateful you'd spend the time as I'd assume you were sincere. If I thought you were being obnoxious, I'd be insulted.

I certainly wouldn't reward your little quip with hot sex and a pat on the back...a cold beer and a blow.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> If you find my honest sincerity lacking or insufficient, despite the fact that it is sincere to me, such as in this case, then we haven't moved the goal posts much, have we?


I think this is a misunderstanding because I was speaking in general about the topic and not directly to you and your level of honesty. I don't foresee us ever moving the goal post very far because we sincerely disagree on this topic. So much so that you don't recognize that I'm not on a playing field at all and for me goal posts don't matter.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Trenton said:


> If you and I had the same convo I would say, "Great! I look forward to 12 hours from now."... and I'd be curious to see what you came up with and grateful you'd spend the time as I'd assume you were sincere. If I thought you were being obnoxious, I'd be insulted.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't reward your little quip with hot sex and a pat on the back...a cold beer and a blow.


Interesting. Rather that admit that it was unfair to pop that question out of the blue and expect a fully thought out answer, you would double down and continue to assert that you were reasonable? Had I received that answer, I likely would have been insulted.


----------



## Trenton

Tall Average Guy said:


> Interesting. Rather that admit that it was unfair to pop that question out of the blue and expect a fully thought out answer, you would double down and continue to assert that you were reasonable? Had I received that answer, I likely would have been insulted.


I could admit it was unfair of me to pop a question I had thought about a lot and I could also understand that it was fair to offer you the same amount of time to come up with an answer as you suggested.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Trenton said:


> I could admit it was unfair of me to pop a question I had thought about a lot and I could also understand that it was fair to offer you the same amount of time to come up with an answer as you suggested.


I would certainly be much more receptive to that type of response to my question.


----------



## Conrad

Aim for the stars.

Hold out for the beer and blow job.



Tall Average Guy said:


> I would certainly be much more receptive to that type of response to my question.


----------



## itsnotmeok

Trenton said:


> You either dig deep and think of this through her perspective using your true deep feelings to communicate with her and ultimately see this as an opportunity to connect with her within her mind and heart which is more likely to bring you closer together
> 
> -or-
> 
> You do as manning up dictates and see her as a game to be conquered and this as one more test among a million other tests that all come from a struggle for control and her desire to feel you are indeed a penis that can lead a pack
> 
> If you ask me, the later is about your own struggles with your own ego and skeletons and the first is a sincere connection to build something meaningful between the two of you. I might just be an insane lunatic, passive aggressive, borderline personality disordered freak who can't see my own shadow but I don't think so or care and, quite frankly, the later sucks as it lands the two of you alone in your own hearts.



I'm thinking the later doesn't sound genuine. I want to be authentic and I'm not on this forum because I'm trying to get laid. AlphaOmega reminds me of a young man who just got out of bootcamp and thinks he is a hard ass. 

I should admit that I have some nice guys tendencies so I'm interested enough to read the book and give it a chance. I'm sure as with any book there are some good things to be taken away from it, but I'm not going to leave my wife because I read some book that told me to MAN UP! First off I don't like the term, sounds like something a ********* says.


----------



## Conrad

Wow - Omega always speaks highly of you.


----------



## itsnotmeok

He speaks highly of me? I've only post 4 or 5 times on here. He only says thinks like tell her to shut up and rip her clothes off.


----------



## Trenton

itsnotmeok said:


> I'm thinking the later doesn't sound genuine. I want to be authentic and I'm not on this forum because I'm trying to get laid. AlphaOmega reminds me of a young man who just got out of bootcamp and thinks he is a hard ass.
> 
> I should admit that I have some nice guys tendencies so I'm interested enough to read the book and give it a chance. I'm sure as with any book there are some good things to be taken away from it, but I'm not going to leave my wife because I read some book that told me to MAN UP! First off I don't like the term, sounds like something a ********* says.


I think manning up leads a man away insidiously because it's teaching separation and independence coupled with gaming and manipulation which is actually contradictory to marriage and relationships. The idea that women don't know what they want is ridiculous. The fact that men don't understand what women want because they are men is more likely. The same holding true for women. When you consider each relationship will also contain two very different individuals on top of all that it is really hard for me to believe that one way of handling things will fit all.

Certainly I don't feel men should stay unhappy and reliant just because they're in a relationship they feel helpless in but I think, like you suggest, there are less radical ways to go about it.

When you're dealing with affairs and boundaries that are being crossed that hurt the core of one of the people in the relationship, it's obviously a different story and that's the case for many here. In that instance, it does make sense to re-find yourself and your own needs in order to re-evaluate what you want to do with life. Still, this is sought after because having to face that the relationship may no longer be the mutual agreement it once was makes looking at a different set of choices pretty important for our own well being.


----------



## itsnotmeok

Here's a little more clarification to my w behavior. It's not her just wanting me to tell her WHY I love her but she is thinking why should I love her. She feels insecure about how much I really like her because she is mean sometimes and I'm so laid back that I don't even notice or care at times. She thinks that I don't know why I love her because we've been married for a few years now and I only love her because it's comfortable. Make sense?


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> I think this is a misunderstanding because I was speaking in general about the topic and not directly to you and your level of honesty. I don't foresee us ever moving the goal post very far because we sincerely disagree on this topic. So much so that you don't recognize that I'm not on a playing field at all and for me goal posts don't matter.


I do find it interesting that this always happens between you and I ... and not in a smart-alec way. You and I communicate very, very, poorly. I mean there is an utter chasm at times between us understanding one another.

I wasn't framing the circumstances as personal to me ... I intended them in the abstract third person, or more specifically as directly relates to itsnotmeok.

I recognize that message may not have been clear at all because of my use of the word 'I' and 'my'. I intended it as an example.

But in a weird way, it kind of illustrates my (personal my) point. You and I want the exact same thing, you know? Happy, loving, fulfilling relationships for both parties. But to you, the manner in which I do so ... is insincere. You don't trust it.



To itsnotmeok;

You mentioned that you tell your wife that you love her every day. Is that correct? And if so, why? Are you familiar with the 5 Love Languages?


----------



## Runs like Dog

"Because you don't ask a lot of stupid trick questions, dear..."


----------



## Halien

Trenton said:


> I think manning up leads a man away insidiously because it's teaching separation and independence coupled with gaming and manipulation which is actually contradictory to marriage and relationships. The idea that women don't know what they want is ridiculous. The fact that men don't understand what women want because they are men is more likely. The same holding true for women. When you consider each relationship will also contain two very different individuals on top of all that it is really hard for me to believe that one way of handling things will fit all.
> 
> Certainly I don't feel men should stay unhappy and reliant just because they're in a relationship they feel helpless in but I think, like you suggest, there are less radical ways to go about it.
> 
> When you're dealing with affairs and boundaries that are being crossed that hurt the core of one of the people in the relationship, it's obviously a different story and that's the case for many here. In that instance, it does make sense to re-find yourself and your own needs in order to re-evaluate what you want to do with life. Still, this is sought after because having to face that the relationship may no longer be the mutual agreement it once was makes looking at a different set of choices pretty important for our own well being.


To be honest, manning up isn't always the swiss army knife approach needed for every situation where a wife is pushing an issue. Maybe I just have a fanciful imagination, but sometimes a guy posts about his wife trying to control a situation and manning up is usually the default response, yet I wonder if there is a lot more going on than we see. I'm not talking about the OP, but sometimes we men are chronically misunderstanding our wife's needs, and she just feels that controlling is her last option.

My wife and I have a book about rearing boys and girls. It says that if a young man wants to color his feelings and emotional needs, a parent only needs to buy him one of the starter crayon boxes, the one with 8 crayons. A girl would need the big box. One with 64 colors. 

Just suggesting that manning up is not the approach needed if the guy is emotionally dumber than a rock.


----------



## AFEH

itsnotmeok said:


> Here's a little more clarification to my w behavior. It's not her just wanting me to tell her WHY I love her but she is thinking why should I love her. She feels insecure about how much I really like her because she is mean sometimes and I'm so laid back that I don't even notice or care at times. She thinks that I don't know why I love her because we've been married for a few years now and I only love her because it's comfortable. Make sense?


Maybe because she is mean (people who do mean acts have mean thoughts, you may be “seeing” just a few of them) then she BELIEVES SHE IS “UNLOVABLE”. And she is PROJECT HER BELIEF ONTO YOU. That is, she believes that you also believe she is unlovable. Look up psychological projection. It is EXCEEDINGLY common.

I wonder if you can love a person who doesn’t love themselves. Sounds like she has such a very strong self belief in these things that nothing you say or do will override that self belief. She probably needs independent counselling to get to the roots of her problems. Most especially the being mean to your husband problem.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> Are you familiar with the 5 Love Languages?


*Book *: Amazon.com: The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love That Lasts (9780802473158): Gary D. Chapman: Books

*Overview*: The Five Love Languages: Knowing a Person's Love Language is Vital to Healthy Communication | Suite101.com

*Test*: ******* | Take The 5 Love Languages Test


----------



## itsnotmeok

Halien said:


> Manning up may be great advice for the OP, but sometimes you have to take the wife's question at face value and ask yourself why she is making this particular question a very big deal. I mean, this is a pretty ominous question that she is asking. There are so many ways that this question could potentially be reworded. *'She is fixating on her possible belief that the OP could be happy with any of a hundred different women.' * 'She is possibly saying that she thinks he doesn't really love her, and never did.' *'She is possibly asking him if the whole relationship is just built on a marriage of convenience.' *
> 
> There could be many different reasons for asking this question of him, but it is disturbing that one of the first steps men or women will use to re-write marital history and divorce is incompatability, or the belief that the two of them never had anything special. Telling her to 'get over it', as some have advised, would only support this re-writing. I'm only suggesting that manning up might be secondary to the need to find out why she is asking this question.


Thank you!!! Nice to hear from someone with common sense. This is exactly what's going on. Manning up could come in handy in some cases or even part of our discussion on this subject but I'm not going to bully her into believing me. 

My wife I know is thinking that I could be happier with another women because sometime my wife is mean or not quite the perfect wife she saw herself being. As far as convenience, she believes me when I say "I love you" but she doesn't think I really do love her for her. She thinks I love her because it's convenient or comfortable since we've been together for so long.


----------



## Deejo

itsnotmeok said:


> Here's a little more clarification to my w behavior. It's not her just wanting me to tell her WHY I love her but she is thinking why should I love her. She feels insecure about how much I really like her because she is mean sometimes and I'm so laid back that I don't even notice or care at times. She thinks that I don't know why I love her because we've been married for a few years now and I only love her because it's comfortable. Make sense?


Makes perfect sense. And it's not terribly healthy. Agreed? Had a similar issue with my ex.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/20584-destructive-fitness-tests.html


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Conrad said:


> Aim for the stars.
> 
> Hold out for the beer and blow job.


The way my wife dropped ithe question on me was not fair, which is why I called her on it. While there was humor in my respnse, there was also the smallest bit of irratation. This was long before I found this board or knew about the term "manup."

I also know that for my wife, the actual question was important. It is a need of hers that she hears those things from me. Which is why I did think about it and give her some answers.


----------



## r2d210

Oversimplification:

OP marry's a mean women. BUT, he is ok with that. (He is easy going and happy to be there...)

Wife knows she is mean and doesn't like herself, so askes OP to justify himself to her, fearing that he will wake up one day and decide to jump ship, leaving her a mean women. 

One possible solution:

Get her to like herself/like (counseling) who she is and no longer be a mean person. She will learn to love herself and no longer seek justification from you and no longer fear abandonment.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> I do find it interesting that this always happens between you and I ... and not in a smart-alec way. You and I communicate very, very, poorly. I mean there is an utter chasm at times between us understanding one another.
> 
> I wasn't framing the circumstances as personal to me ... I intended them in the abstract third person, or more specifically as directly relates to itsnotmeok.
> 
> I recognize that message may not have been clear at all because of my use of the word 'I' and 'my'. I intended it as an example.
> 
> But in a weird way, it kind of illustrates my (personal my) point. You and I want the exact same thing, you know? Happy, loving, fulfilling relationships for both parties. But to you, the manner in which I do so ... is insincere. You don't trust it.
> 
> 
> 
> To itsnotmeok;
> 
> You mentioned that you tell your wife that you love her every day. Is that correct? And if so, why? Are you familiar with the 5 Love Languages?


I agree to all that you say here. Phew.


----------



## Conrad

Halien,

If he's "emotionally dumber than a rock", not much will help.




Halien said:


> To be honest, manning up isn't always the swiss army knife approach needed for every situation where a wife is pushing an issue. Maybe I just have a fanciful imagination, but sometimes a guy posts about his wife trying to control a situation and manning up is usually the default response, yet I wonder if there is a lot more going on than we see. I'm not talking about the OP, but sometimes we men are chronically misunderstanding our wife's needs, and she just feels that controlling is her last option.
> 
> My wife and I have a book about rearing boys and girls. It says that if a young man wants to color his feelings and emotional needs, a parent only needs to buy him one of the starter crayon boxes, the one with 8 crayons. A girl would need the big box. One with 64 colors.
> 
> Just suggesting that manning up is not the approach needed if the guy is emotionally dumber than a rock.


----------



## Halien

Conrad said:


> Halien,
> 
> If he's "emotionally dumber than a rock", not much will help.


Just to repeat, I wasn't talking about the OP. But yes, not much will help if a guy is emotionally disconnected from his wife, and makes her out to be the bad one for trying to bridge the chasm. Especially not manning up - but it'll probably help his self-confidence when the wife is married to another guy. As the OP indicated, his wife isn't the evil manipulator of men that some assumed her to be. 

I'm definately not bashing manning up, but I think its easy to see this as disproportionately more applicable to fix a marriage than communication by some of us newbies on the site.


----------



## MarriedTex

itsnotmeok said:


> Here's a little more clarification to my w behavior. It's not her just wanting me to tell her WHY I love her but she is thinking why should I love her. She feels insecure about how much I really like her because she is mean sometimes and I'm so laid back that I don't even notice or care at times. She thinks that I don't know why I love her because we've been married for a few years now and I only love her because it's comfortable. Make sense?


She's seeking re-affirmation of the relationship. If you come up with some intrinsic quality that only she can provide, she can rationalize continue treating you in what she sees as a sub-standard manner. Also, she may be afraid of "investing" more time in you if you're susceptible to just flying the coop. 

Your response should depend on how you want her to feel. Do you want her to feel more comfortable - and perhaps trade a bit of her desire to sustain relationship into a more laid back relationship approach? If so, do something re-affirming. Maybe suggest renewal of vows? 

If you want to keep her guessing - and keep her working to sustain your interest and love - you try something a bit more hard-edged. For instance, next time she asks, turn it into a game. You give her one and then she gives you one. (Why she loves you, I mean.) Her responses will provide you a pretty quick roadmap on the type of feedback she is likely to value. 

Without knowing your preferred strategy/outcome, it's hard to say which approach is better for you.


----------



## LostMyPath

Why do you have to prove to your wife that you love her all of a sudden?

I mean, its human nature to seek reassurance but, why would you go out of your way to make her a website, as much as you failed, but its a gesture that counts...

How about this, how about you ask her to tell you "why" she loves you, then, be very cold and tell her that that is not enough.

Lets see if she puts as much effort as you did into it all.


----------



## RandomDude

My answer whenever the missus asks me why I love her tends to be along the lines of: "What kind of question is that?!" Because considering our history together it is kinda stupid. But if she tries to dig in deeper I tend to go "What?! Hell if I know! Help me figure it out because I have no idea sometimes!" :rofl:

But after emptying out my testorome I tend to be more jelly-like telling her how much I adore and admire her and all the lovey dovey crap... including telling her how she makes me feel and all that sensitive emo sh-t. Then the next day comes and she tells me "I love you" and I go "I love me too!" which annoys her hehe.


----------



## itsnotmeok

MarriedTex said:


> She's seeking re-affirmation of the relationship. If you come up with some intrinsic quality that only she can provide, she can rationalize continue treating you in what she sees as a sub-standard manner. Also, she may be afraid of "investing" more time in you if you're susceptible to just flying the coop.
> 
> Your response should depend on how you want her to feel. Do you want her to feel more comfortable - and perhaps trade a bit of her desire to sustain relationship into a more laid back relationship approach? If so, do something re-affirming. Maybe suggest renewal of vows?
> 
> If you want to keep her guessing - and keep her working to sustain your interest and love - you try something a bit more hard-edged. For instance, next time she asks, turn it into a game. You give her one and then she gives you one. (Why she loves you, I mean.) Her responses will provide you a pretty quick roadmap on the type of feedback she is likely to value.
> 
> Without knowing your preferred strategy/outcome, it's hard to say which approach is better for you.



I appreciate this post. The "flying the coop" analysis is off but I understand the point. She is not scared of me leaving she knows I'm committed to her and family. 

Affirmation is not the issue because commitment is there and she's even said she knows that I love her, it's the fact I can't tell her why. I think she needs reassurance that she is a great wife and I love her for who she is and not for what she does for me. 

I've tried turning the question on her. The first time it didn't go over well. So the next day I pushed it again and although she pushed back she finally gave me a couple of reason. Funny thing, she said "you're sensitive and thoughtful". So I asked her isn't that the same as me telling you "you put others first and you're nurturing". She didn't have much to say other than "well there is more to what I said". LOL, hopefully I'm getting somewhere. I love her and her crazy women mind.


----------



## itsnotmeok

Will someone give me some examples of "I love you for you" stuff. This is an ambiguous topic to me because I don't know how to come up with reasons that aren't something she does or how she makes me feel. Yes, she does and says cute little things that I only know about but I don't think this is what she wants to hear. Anyways, I will move on from this subject soon because I'm sure it's getting annoying to read.


----------



## Conrad

Did you read the thread on Fitness Testing?



itsnotmeok said:


> Will someone give me some examples of "I love you for you" stuff. This is an ambiguous topic to me because I don't know how to come up with reasons that aren't something she does or how she makes me feel. Yes, she does and says cute little things that I only know about but I don't think this is what she wants to hear. Anyways, I will move on from this subject soon because I'm sure it's getting annoying to read.


----------



## heartsbeating

itsnotmeok said:


> Here's a little more clarification to my w behavior. It's not her just wanting me to tell her WHY I love her but she is thinking why should I love her. She feels insecure about how much I really like her because she is mean sometimes and I'm so laid back that I don't even notice or care at times. She thinks that I don't know why I love her because we've been married for a few years now and I only love her because it's comfortable. Make sense?


You said she is mean sometimes, so does she wonder herself if she is loveable because of her own actions? And is it possible that she sees your being laid-back as apathy? 

Is she just trying to get a reaction from you? Does she want to see some form of PASSION from you, whether good or bad, for her to feel response back to know that you're genuine in your emotion towards her. Maybe just as she wants to know why it is you love her, I wonder if she also wants you to call her on her bullsh*t when she's mean as well? I don't know, just a thought.


----------



## heartsbeating

itsnotmeok said:


> Will someone give me some examples of "I love you for you" stuff. This is an ambiguous topic to me because I don't know how to come up with reasons that aren't something she does or how she makes me feel. Yes, she does and says cute little things that I only know about but I don't think this is what she wants to hear. Anyways, I will move on from this subject soon because I'm sure it's getting annoying to read.


I can list a bunch of things I admire about my H as a person and what sets him apart from others to me. But the real reason why I love him becomes a deeper feeling. If I fail to find the words I need to express myself eloquently, I'll turn to songs and music instead. Led Zeppelin - Thank You - YouTube. _"And so today, my world it smiles, your hand in mine, we walk the miles. Thanks to you it will be done, for you to me are the only one."_ It doesn't tell him reasons why I love him, but we've always accepted the way we fit.

At some point she will need to accept that you love her. And/or you try to discover new ways of helping her feel romanced and secure whichever way speaks to her. But you can't keep jumping through hoops either. She needs to learn your language in return. My H knows songs are my language to him and I know he knows of the HOURS I spend perfecting a mix-tape for him lol. To someone else this might just be a music compilation, but to him it's hours of thought and effort to make it a wonderful expression of love meant just for him.


----------



## Stonewall

The question cannot be answered with finality as she is asking for a logical answer to an emotional question. These two are mutually exclusive entities. There will always be a hole in any answer you give unless get her to understand that. This is a test that you can't pass unless she wants to let you pass.


----------



## sinnister

Conrad said:


> Use humor.
> 
> It's a fitness test.


Beat me to it.

When i was faced with this one I said:

I love your bum...if it wasn't for that I'd be long gone.


----------



## itsnotmeok

heartsbeating said:


> You said she is mean sometimes, so does she wonder herself if she is loveable because of her own actions? And is it possible that she sees your being laid-back as apathy?
> 
> Is she just trying to get a reaction from you? Does she want to see some form of PASSION from you, whether good or bad, for her to feel response back to know that you're genuine in your emotion towards her. Maybe just as she wants to know why it is you love her, I wonder if she also wants you to call her on her bullsh*t when she's mean as well? I don't know, just a thought.


Thanks for your post, they have been some of the most helpful. 

I think she definitely wants me to call her on her bleep when she goes to far. And yes the laid-back attitude may come off as apathy and I've told her over the past couple weeks that I'm more aware of this now. 

I think it's awesome you play Zeppelin for your h. I love me some Zeppelin. One cool thing my wife is doing recently is listening to more music I like so she can enjoy it with me. I think this is a good even if a small step to more intimacy. 

I also talked to my wife about fitness test and asked her if she feels like she test me. She said she does test me sometime she thinks to see my reaction, but it's not something she does intentionally or is trying to "get me". I read some of the fitness test examples and I'm sorry but some of them are just stupid. I'm not going to be an a**hole just so my wife thinks I'm a hard ass. I'll take care of my wife as much reasonably possible.


----------



## ManDup

itsnotmeok said:


> Will someone give me some examples of "I love you for you" stuff. This is an ambiguous topic to me because I don't know how to come up with reasons that aren't something she does or how she makes me feel. Yes, she does and says cute little things that I only know about but I don't think this is what she wants to hear. Anyways, I will move on from this subject soon because I'm sure it's getting annoying to read.


There is still no right answer, even after 8 pages. You can try some of the approaches to fitness tests, such as agree and amplify: "Well, let's start with your little toe. Ok, but on that little toe is a toenail. And right above that toenail is a tiny little hair. The end of that hair has frayed a bit as it grows and wears out at the same time. I love that." Your attitude here is very important. This can't come off as sarcastic, just fake-sincere.

Another approach is the Tim Minchin "you fall within a bell curve". You can google the video, but here's the lyrics to give you an idea: If I Didn't Have You Lyrics - Tim Minchin
In that approach we question the absurd view that soulmates can only be for each other, which implies that no one else would want you, a display of low value on your part.

You can make a quick turnaround out of it, such as, "I don't know, but all the *****es loves me".

The point is it's a stupid and irrational question, and so there is no logical answer to it. Fight irrational with irrational (best to use humor).


----------



## ManDup

itsnotmeok said:


> Thanks for your post, they have been some of the most helpful.
> 
> I think she definitely wants me to call her on her bleep when she goes to far. And yes the laid-back attitude may come off as apathy and I've told her over the past couple weeks that I'm more aware of this now.
> 
> I think it's awesome you play Zeppelin for your h. I love me some Zeppelin. One cool thing my wife is doing recently is listening to more music I like so she can enjoy it with me. I think this is a good even if a small step to more intimacy.
> 
> I also talked to my wife about fitness test and asked her if she feels like she test me. She said she does test me sometime she thinks to see my reaction, but it's not something she does intentionally or is trying to "get me". I read some of the fitness test examples and I'm sorry but some of them are just stupid. I'm not going to be an a**hole just so my wife thinks I'm a hard ass. I'll take care of my wife as much reasonably possible.


Why not? She's being one when she asks you a stupid irrational question. Does this make my ass look fat? What kind of question is that? 

Try it if you don't believe it. Women aren't men.


----------



## IanIronwood

itsnotmeok said:


> I also talked to my wife about fitness test and asked her if she feels like she test me. She said she does test me sometime she thinks to see my reaction, but it's not something she does intentionally or is trying to "get me". I read some of the fitness test examples and I'm sorry but some of them are just stupid. I'm not going to be an a**hole just so my wife thinks I'm a hard ass. I'll take care of my wife as much reasonably possible.


a) don't make your wife aware of her own fitness tests. That's bad precedent. Recognize them for what they are, but don't call them to her attention unless she's being really psycho about it. Most women don't even know they're doing it, it's just ingrained in their biology. 

b) You don't have to be an a**hole about it . . . the goal is not to be a complete p*ssy about it, either. You can put your foot down firmly and refuse to cooperate with her crap and still be a decent guy. You're just a decent guy who has decided that he won't put up with her crap. When she pulls something like that again, treat her how you would treat a 9 year old pulling the same stunt. ("Sure you want ice cream . . . but is your room clean?")

I know if my wife asked me that in the same sort of way, the response would be "Why do I love you? Because I've always loved the kind of woman who would (insert kinky thing here) when I ask her for it, without giving me any crap about it." (pause) "I mean, you ARE that kind of woman, aren't you?"

In other words, she's smart enough to know that if she asks a question like that, she should expect a response worthy of it.


----------



## IanIronwood

ManDup said:


> Why not? She's being one when she asks you a stupid irrational question. Does this make my ass look fat? What kind of question is that?
> 
> Try it if you don't believe it. Women aren't men.



"Does this make my ass look fat?"

Athol Kay has the best response ever to this: "I don't know . . . your pants and panties are in the way."


----------



## Conrad

itsnotmeok said:


> I also talked to my wife about fitness test and asked her if she feels like she test me. She said she does test me sometime she thinks to see my reaction, but it's not something she does intentionally or is trying to "get me". I read some of the fitness test examples and I'm sorry but some of them are just stupid. I'm not going to be an a**hole just so my wife thinks I'm a hard ass. I'll take care of my wife as much reasonably possible.


My God


----------



## ManDup

itsnotmeok said:


> Here's a little more clarification to my w behavior. It's not her just wanting me to tell her WHY I love her but she is thinking why should I love her. She feels insecure about how much I really like her because she is mean sometimes and I'm so laid back that I don't even notice or care at times. She thinks that I don't know why I love her because we've been married for a few years now and I only love her because it's comfortable. Make sense?


Ok. So you need some boundaries, such as "Bad wife. Quit doing that." If you are treating your wife well (you are) and she is not treating you well (she's not) you have a man-up problem. A man does not accept that type of behavior from his wife just because he's afraid of conflict (you are, although you are quite happy to tell all of us we're wrong. why not her?)



itsnotmeok said:


> Thank you!!! Nice to hear from someone with common sense. This is exactly what's going on. Manning up could come in handy in some cases or even part of our discussion on this subject but I'm not going to bully her into believing me.
> 
> My wife I know is thinking that I could be happier with another women because sometime my wife is mean or not quite the perfect wife she saw herself being. As far as convenience, she believes me when I say "I love you" but she doesn't think I really do love her for her. She thinks I love her because it's convenient or comfortable since we've been together for so long.


You could be happy with another woman. So? There is nothing wrong with this. Women want men whom other women want. 

You could also be unhappy with her when she's mean to you, but you're not, so she doesn't trust it. You need to man up. Seriously. By A) working the fitness tests or at least ignoring them and not researching the internet for 8 pages of info you ignore, and B) setting boundaries of acceptable behavior. When you allow her to be mean to you and you just accept it, she thinks, "What kind of marshmallow did I marry? I thought he was a real man, who could protect me when I need it. Guess not." Being nice to her is all well and good if it is reciprocated. Why do you love (bad treatment)?


----------



## itsnotmeok

Conrad said:


> My God


My God? My God what? My God I could stomp your ass if you were standing in front of me right now? Is that what you meant? My God I just got my ass kicked. I'm such a loser because my wife asked me to take out the trash and I did it?

Now if she ask me to do it NOW and said you NEVER take out the trash, I wouldn't say in a real meek voice "ok honey". She almost never does me like that and when she says the word "never" I've always called her on that.


----------



## ManDup

itsnotmeok said:


> My God? My God what? My God I could stomp your ass if you were standing in front of me right now? Is that what you meant? My God I just got my ass kicked. I'm such a loser because my wife asked me to take out the trash and I did it?
> 
> Now if she ask me to do it NOW and said you NEVER take out the trash, I wouldn't say in a real meek voice "ok honey". She almost never does me like that and when she says the word "never" I've always called her on that.


I can't speak for Conrad, but for me, "My God, you're going to just keep taking care of your wife as best you can *regardless* of what she does." Nothing wrong with treating your wife right if she treats you right too. etc. etc.

Rather than trying to figure out what she wants you to say in response to this question, why don't you try to figure out why you feel compelled to provide a logical and "correct" answer to a meaningless question. Or, hey, just keep doing what you're doing, and get the results you're getting. Did you seriously come here because you thought you would find the "real" answer to her question, or are you looking for something deeper, something about YOU? Why *do* you love her?


----------



## Conrad

ManDup said:


> I can't speak for Conrad, but for me, "My God, you're going to just keep taking care of your wife as best you can *regardless* of what she does." Nothing wrong with treating your wife right if she treats you right too. etc. etc.
> 
> Rather than trying to figure out what she wants you to say in response to this question, why don't you try to figure out why you feel compelled to provide a logical and "correct" answer to a meaningless question. Or, hey, just keep doing what you're doing, and get the results you're getting. Did you seriously come here because you thought you would find the "real" answer to her question, or are you looking for something deeper, something about YOU? Why *do* you love her?



And, furthermore, do you want HER to feel lucky to have a witty, charming, confident partner? Or are you content to have her gradually disrespect you and wipe her feet on you - one transaction at a time?


----------



## itsnotmeok

IanIronwood said:


> a) *don't make your wife aware of her own fitness tests. That's bad precedent.* Recognize them for what they are, but don't call them to her attention unless she's being really psycho about it. Most women don't even know they're doing it, it's just ingrained in their biology.
> 
> b) You don't have to be an a**hole about it . . . the goal is not to be a complete p*ssy about it, either. You can put your foot down firmly and refuse to cooperate with her crap and still be a decent guy. You're just a decent guy who has decided that he won't put up with her crap. When she pulls something like that again, treat her how you would treat a 9 year old pulling the same stunt. ("Sure you want ice cream . . . but is your room clean?")
> 
> *I know if my wife asked me that in the same sort of way, the response would be "Why do I love you? Because I've always loved the kind of woman who would (insert kinky thing here) when I ask her for it, without giving me any crap about it." (pause) "I mean, you ARE that kind of woman, aren't you?"*
> 
> In other words, she's smart enough to know that if she asks a question like that, she should expect a response worthy of it.


It's bad precedent? So I should not make my wife aware of the things I'm working on or what she may be doing that she needs to at least be aware of? I'm not going to secretly have jedi mind tricks to get her to love or respect me or whatever. 
And doesn't the NMMNG book say to share this book with your spouse? 

When the mood is not to serious then I would say something funny like that, but in general I don't talk to my wife like shes a *****.


----------



## IanIronwood

itsnotmeok said:


> It's bad precedent? So I should not make my wife aware of the things I'm working on or what she may be doing that she needs to at least be aware of? I'm not going to secretly have jedi mind tricks to get her to love or respect me or whatever.
> And doesn't the NMMNG book say to share this book with your spouse?
> 
> When the mood is not to serious then I would say something funny like that, but in general I don't talk to my wife like shes a *****.



When you try to flaunt all the changes you are allegedly making, then it seems like you are doing it for her benefit, not your own. You are not a schoolchild, and you don't need her permission or her acquiescence to act like a man. You just DO IT, and observe her responses and adapt accordingly. By pointing out her fitness tests of you, you are going to make her self-conscious and resentful. By merely responding to them without discussion, you have truly laid claim to them.

Otherwise, it sounds an awful lot like: "Hey, Hon! Lookatme, I'm Manning UP! Aren't you proud of me? Huh? Aren't you? Don't I look buff? Aren't you sexually attracted to me now? Huh? Come on, please notice me! Won't your friends be jealous? Won't -- hey! PAY ATTENTION TO ME!" as she wanders away.

The goal of this isn't to just get your wife to have more sex with you. The goal of this is to get your wife to respect you, and as a result of that respect want to have more sex with you. Pointing out her own fitness tests to her is just going to piss her off. Discussing it to death is a female sort of thing to do, not a masculine sort of thing to do. Just let it happen, and accept the consequences without tacitly asking her permission if its okay to be a man.

It's not a jedi mind trick. It's more like a poker game. And you're showing her your whole hand.


----------



## itsnotmeok

IanIronwood said:


> When you try to flaunt all the changes you are allegedly making, then it seems like you are doing it for her benefit, not your own. You are not a schoolchild, and you don't need her permission or her acquiescence to act like a man. You just DO IT, and observe her responses and adapt accordingly. By pointing out her fitness tests of you, you are going to make her self-conscious and resentful. By merely responding to them without discussion, you have truly laid claim to them.
> 
> Otherwise, it sounds an awful lot like: "Hey, Hon! Lookatme, I'm Manning UP! Aren't you proud of me? Huh? Aren't you? Don't I look buff? Aren't you sexually attracted to me now? Huh? Come on, please notice me! Won't your friends be jealous? Won't -- hey! PAY ATTENTION TO ME!" as she wanders away.
> 
> The goal of this isn't to just get your wife to have more sex with you. The goal of this is to get your wife to respect you, and as a result of that respect want to have more sex with you. Pointing out her own fitness tests to her is just going to piss her off. Discussing it to death is a female sort of thing to do, not a masculine sort of thing to do. Just let it happen, and accept the consequences without tacitly asking her permission if its okay to be a man.
> 
> It's not a jedi mind trick. It's more like a poker game. And you're showing her your whole hand.



I get what you are saying but I'm not talking about about pointing out that she's testing me every time she does it. Just an initial talk about some of the things they may be occurring in our marriage. I'm not going to stop down every argument and say "Now, honey you are testing me and I can't let that happen so please stop and let me be a big burly man, ruff." I don't plan on pointing out to her when she is testing me. Nobody wants a know-it-all psychoanalyzing them, obviously that would annoy the hell out of anyone. I never said anything about getting her consent to act like a man. You guys sure do read alot into everything.


----------



## IanIronwood

itsnotmeok said:


> I get what you are saying but I'm not talking about about pointing out that she's testing me every time she does it. Just an initial talk about some of the things they may be occurring in our marriage. I'm not going to stop down every argument and say "Now, honey you are testing me and I can't let that happen so please stop and let me be a big burly man, ruff." I don't plan on pointing out to her when she is testing me. Nobody wants a know-it-all psychoanalyzing them, obviously that would annoy the hell out of anyone. I never said anything about getting her consent to act like a man. You guys sure do read alot into everything.


We've seen an awful lot of stories like yours. We know every story is different, but we see a lot of dudes making the same predictable mistakes over and over and we want to warn you away from the obvious pitfalls. And there are a LOT of them.

Manning up is almost never easy, and you can't expect the same level of emotional bonding from dudes as you get from women. After you've been around for a while, you'll learn to give as good as you get.


----------



## Trenton

Oh I get it! It's not manipulation it's a poker game! Duh me!


----------



## Conrad

If you want to know how a thoughtful man responds (not some Cro Magnon ******* like me), go to Deejo's profile and read the last 2 years of his posts.

He had no use for this "game playing" stuff when he showed up and didn't really believe any of it.

Different story now.

itsnotmeok... continue to ignore what we consider "reality" at your own risk.

Another case study would be MisterNiceGuy's thread. It's called, EA Headed Towards PA!

It's more than 1000 posts long and you'll see how far MisterNiceGuy got by paying attention to Love Languages and the rest of that stuff - while his wife walked all over him.

He eventually got religion also.

But - I'm sure - _itsnotmeok _is "different".



IanIronwood said:


> We've seen an awful lot of stories like yours. We know every story is different, but we see a lot of dudes making the same predictable mistakes over and over and we want to warn you away from the obvious pitfalls. And there are a LOT of them.
> 
> Manning up is almost never easy, and you can't expect the same level of emotional bonding from dudes as you get from women. After you've been around for a while, you'll learn to give as good as you get.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> If you want to know how a thoughtful man responds (not some Cro Magnon ******* like me), go to Deejo's profile and read the last 2 years of his posts.
> 
> He had no use for this "game playing" stuff when he showed up and didn't really believe any of it.
> 
> Different story now.
> 
> itsnotmeok... continue to ignore what we consider "reality" at your own risk.
> 
> Another case study would be MisterNiceGuy's thread. It's called, EA Headed Towards PA!
> 
> It's more than 1000 posts long and you'll see how far MisterNiceGuy got by paying attention to Love Languages and the rest of that stuff - while his wife walked all over him.
> 
> He eventually got religion also.
> 
> But - I'm sure - _itsnotmeok _is "different".


Deejo is also single now and I'm guessing from time to time wishes things were different and his family was back together. Manning up just made the end more acceptable but it didn't actually get him what he wanted. To do that you'd have to actually change the woman he fell in love with and no amount of manning up is ever going to do that. Key point that is always missing in any of these manning up posts.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> Deejo is also single now and I'm guessing from time to time wishes things were different and his family was back together. Manning up just made the end more acceptable but it didn't actually get him what he wanted. To do that you'd have to actually change the woman he fell in love with and no amount of manning up is ever going to do that. Key point that is always missing in any of these manning up posts.


Why speak for Deejo?

His words speak for themselves.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> Why speak for Deejo?
> 
> His words speak for themselves.


It's my perception, he's free to disagree with it.


----------



## itsnotmeok

Conrad said:


> If you want to know how a thoughtful man responds (not some Cro Magnon ******* like me), go to Deejo's profile and read the last 2 years of his posts.
> 
> He had no use for this "game playing" stuff when he showed up and didn't really believe any of it.
> 
> Different story now.
> 
> itsnotmeok... continue to ignore what we consider "reality" at your own risk.
> 
> Another case study would be MisterNiceGuy's thread. It's called, EA Headed Towards PA!
> 
> It's more than 1000 posts long and you'll see how far MisterNiceGuy got by paying attention to Love Languages and the rest of that stuff - while his wife walked all over him.
> 
> He eventually got religion also.
> 
> But - I'm sure - _itsnotmeok _is "different".


I'm sorry that guys wife cheated on him, but my wife just isn't capable of that. I'm sure you're thinking "yeah right, you don't even know she's probably doing it right now, haha." I can bet my life on it that she isn't and would never. Even if I made no effort what so ever to change my attitude or behavior she would rather be miserable or eventually divorce me before she did that. There are some people who are capable of somethings while others just are not. I'm sure you don't agree with that, but whatever you seem to have all the answers. 

I never said I was ignoring your advice. Maybe you didn't take the time to read my post saying how I appreciate everyone's input and I'm going to read the book because I'm sure it has some relevant and useful information. But as with any book or article I can call BS on what I'm reading. Did I say love languages was the end all be all? No, just said I thought there would be some useful info inside too. 

I came to the forum for some insight and I'm getting some but I don't have to drink all the kool-aid. Some of you guys seem like you got the **** kicked out of you and now your Steven Segal "Out to Kill". I'm sure I'm reading too much into your post as well, but that's how it comes across.

HAVE A NICE DAY!


----------



## itsnotmeok

Conrad said:


> Why speak for Deejo?
> 
> His words speak for themselves.


You've spoken for me. douche.


----------



## Conrad

itsnotmeok said:


> You've spoken for me. douche.


Good to see you are approaching this with an open mind.

How's it working out for you?


----------



## itsnotmeok

Conrad said:


> Good to see you are approaching this with an open mind.
> 
> How's it working out for you?


I'm glad you care so much


----------



## ManDup

Trenton said:


> Deejo is also single now and I'm guessing from time to time wishes things were different and his family was back together. Manning up just made the end more acceptable but it didn't actually get him what he wanted. To do that you'd have to actually change the woman he fell in love with and no amount of manning up is ever going to do that. Key point that is always missing in any of these manning up posts.


I was a whiny ***** for a while when I was being cheated on an disrespected. Then I manned up. Then I became single. Then I met an awesome woman and fell in love with her and she me. I started the relationship on a whole other foot, right this time. It's been great so far, and I now possess the knowledge to keep this one from going so quickly off the rails. So yeah, manning up can change the woman I fell in love with into another, better one. 

In the past, men were men just by nature, and they set an example for their sons. Funny how the divorce rate is at historic highs now, after 3 decades of men becoming "equal" to women, especially in America, where misguided feminism is rampant, but hopefully in decline at last.


----------



## ManDup

Trenton said:


> Oh I get it! It's not manipulation it's a poker game! Duh me!


Of course it's manipulation. So? Wearing lipstick manipulates the man's subconscious into believing she is more fertile than she actually is. Now you're going to tell me you don't wear lipstick. Being "nice" is in any case far more manipulative, when what he really wants is to get laid.

What part of "boldness and confidence > neediness and approval-seeking" bothers you?


----------



## ManDup

itsnotmeok said:


> I'm sorry that guys wife cheated on him, but my wife just isn't capable of that. I'm sure you're thinking "yeah right, you don't even know she's probably doing it right now, haha." I can bet my life on it that she isn't and would never. Even if I made no effort what so ever to change my attitude or behavior she would rather be miserable or eventually divorce me before she did that. There are some people who are capable of somethings while others just are not. I'm sure you don't agree with that, but whatever you seem to have all the answers.
> 
> I never said I was ignoring your advice. Maybe you didn't take the time to read my post saying how I appreciate everyone's input and I'm going to read the book because I'm sure it has some relevant and useful information. But as with any book or article I can call BS on what I'm reading. Did I say love languages was the end all be all? No, just said I thought there would be some useful info inside too.
> 
> I came to the forum for some insight and I'm getting some but I don't have to drink all the kool-aid. Some of you guys seem like you got the **** kicked out of you and now your Steven Segal "Out to Kill". I'm sure I'm reading too much into your post as well, but that's how it comes across.
> 
> HAVE A NICE DAY!


Every woman is capable of falling out of love. Is that what you want? 

The reason guys take a hard-core stance on here is that you are at point A. You need to get to point B. If we discuss this from point C, we might be able to pull your views over to B. But if we pull from point B, where we really are, you won't get there. In other words, there is no need discussing the things we agree on, just the things we've seen over and over. "not capable". Pffft.


----------



## Trenton

ManDup said:


> I was a whiny ***** for a while when I was being cheated on an disrespected. Then I manned up. Then I became single. Then I met an awesome woman and fell in love with her and she me. I started the relationship on a whole other foot, right this time. It's been great so far, and I now possess the knowledge to keep this one from going so quickly off the rails. So yeah, manning up can change the woman I fell in love with into another, better one.
> 
> In the past, men were men just by nature, and they set an example for their sons. Funny how the divorce rate is at historic highs now, after 3 decades of men becoming "equal" to women, especially in America, where misguided feminism is rampant, but hopefully in decline at last.


Yes, it is very sad that many women would rather be alone raising children, working two jobs and struggling than with a **** of a husband. If given choices, women in unhappy relationships, will begin to choose to get out. We did this all awhile back in another thread. Currently in Japan women are divorcing their husbands more and more and all that had to happen to make that unfold is women's employment equaling more choices for women.

I won't make this about feminism or equality. If you want happy relationships men and women will have to face one another and recognize that both of their needs have to recognized and met in their relationship. If it leans too far in either direction and there is a choice to get out, one or the other will leave.


----------



## Trenton

ManDup said:


> Of course it's manipulation. So? Wearing lipstick manipulates the man's subconscious into believing she is more fertile than she actually is. Now you're going to tell me you don't wear lipstick. Being "nice" is in any case far more manipulative, when what he really wants is to get laid.
> 
> What part of "boldness and confidence > neediness and approval-seeking" bothers you?


Uh...seriously? The big difference being men are *aware *they are being manipulated by the makeup.

Yeah. You're not selling me.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> Uh...seriously? The big difference being men are *aware *they are being manipulated by the makeup.
> 
> Yeah. You're not selling me.


Sure they are.


----------



## IanIronwood

Trenton said:


> Uh...seriously? The big difference being men are *aware *they are being manipulated by the makeup.
> 
> Yeah. You're not selling me.


Um . . . no, actually, most men aren't. They see "pretty face" and their brains pretty much stop there. Not that they don't appreciate the over-all effect -- they do -- but they aren't consciously aware of it, nor are they usually aware of the hair-toss, the baring of the neck, or any of the other subtextual gestures that women employ to manipulate men. They just think the woman in question is being nice to him by showing him some attention, and that usually is the end of their awareness.

Really. Most of us don't even realize y'all shave your legs, until confronted with evidence that you don't.


----------



## Trenton

IanIronwood said:


> Um . . . no, actually, most men aren't. They see "pretty face" and their brains pretty much stop there. Not that they don't appreciate the over-all effect -- they do -- but they aren't consciously aware of it, nor are they usually aware of the hair-toss, the baring of the neck, or any of the other subtextual gestures that women employ to manipulate men. They just think the woman in question is being nice to him by showing him some attention, and that usually is the end of their awareness.
> 
> Really. Most of us don't even realize y'all shave your legs, until confronted with evidence that you don't.


And women are the ones who are lacking in reason and brains? 

I do hope you can see the difference between knowingly choosing to manipulate a person by withholding information and practicing behaviors openly to remain attractive to your husband.


----------



## morituri

Condescension tango anyone?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

IanIronwood said:


> Um . . . no, actually, most men aren't. They see "pretty face" and their brains pretty much stop there. Not that they don't appreciate the over-all effect -- they do -- but they aren't consciously aware of it, nor are they usually aware of the hair-toss, the baring of the neck, or any of the other subtextual gestures that women employ to manipulate men. They just think the woman in question is being nice to him by showing him some attention, and that usually is the end of their awareness.
> 
> Really. Most of us don't even realize y'all shave your legs, until confronted with evidence that you don't.


Damnit Ironwood! All this time I thought wit and charm mattered but all I really needed to do was slick on red lipstick, jack my tits to Jesus and toss my hair? 
I'm being serious here....men are THAT easy?


----------



## Trenton

morituri said:


> Condescension tango anyone?


Absolutely! Just let me go put on my tango costume and red lipstick Sir.


----------



## Conrad

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Damnit Ironwood! All this time I thought wit and charm mattered but all I really needed to do was slick on red lipstick, jack my tits to Jesus and toss my hair?
> I'm being serious here....men are THAT easy?


At first


----------



## morituri

Trenton said:


> Absolutely! Just let me go put on my tango costume and red lipstick Sir.


You're on madame. I've got my tuxedo and dancing shoes on. Just don't tell your husband about our little escape.


----------



## Trenton

morituri said:


> You're on madame. I've got my tuxedo and dancing shoes on. Just don't tell your husband about our little escape.


I was planning on bringing him with me!


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Deejo is also single now and I'm guessing from time to time wishes things were different and his family was back together. Manning up just made the end more acceptable but it didn't actually get him what he wanted. To do that you'd have to actually change the woman he fell in love with and no amount of manning up is ever going to do that. Key point that is always missing in any of these manning up posts.


Don't know if we are framing from the same context, but that's a pretty accurate summary.
Manning up STILL isn't about tricking a woman to be something you want her to be (conversely that's actually what being a 'Nice Guy' is ALL about) It's about recognizing that you can or cannot get what you want with and from a particular woman. I wasn't going to ever have the relationship I wanted with my ex. 

At the end of the day, either your partner loves, you; you love them and you both feel fulfilled ... or you don't.

Don't doubt for a moment that OP loves his wife. But ... as we have seen time and again ... doesn't matter how he feels about the love he expresses towards her. What matters is how she feels about the love he expresses towards her. It's either working and strengthening their bond, or it isn't working, and their bond is diminished. It's subtle and corrosive.

You are familiar with what I'm referring to, correct, Trenton? Meant as commiseration between our circumstances, not as a challenge.


----------



## heartsbeating

itsnotmeok said:


> Thanks for your post, they have been some of the most helpful.
> 
> I think she definitely wants me to call her on her bleep when she goes to far. And yes the laid-back attitude may come off as apathy and I've told her over the past couple weeks that I'm more aware of this now.
> 
> I think it's awesome you play Zeppelin for your h. I love me some Zeppelin. One cool thing my wife is doing recently is listening to more music I like so she can enjoy it with me. I think this is a good even if a small step to more intimacy.
> 
> I also talked to my wife about fitness test and asked her if she feels like she test me. She said she does test me sometime she thinks to see my reaction, but it's not something she does intentionally or is trying to "get me". I read some of the fitness test examples and I'm sorry but some of them are just stupid. I'm not going to be an a**hole just so my wife thinks I'm a hard ass. I'll take care of my wife as much reasonably possible.


I notice you seem quite defensive about advice given here from some of the other posters. Here's the thing though, you posted asking for advice and people have actually bothered to try to help you. Granted you don't need to agree with them, me, or any one here however despite your own slight defensiveness that comes across, people are still trying to help you. I hope you can recognize that.

You mentioned your wife is trying to listen to some of your music which is a small step with helping intimacy between you. There's more going on than just the question you posted. When you're ready to see that your initial concern is perhaps a small glimpse of a bigger picture, there's a chance you might begin to see what others are seeing here. You still might disagree with some thoughts but keeping an open mind to look at your scenario with different perspective might really help you. Best wishes.


----------



## AFEH

itsnotmeok said:


> *Will someone give me some examples of "I love you for you" stuff. *This is an ambiguous topic to me because I don't know how to come up with reasons that aren't something she does or how she makes me feel. Yes, she does and says cute little things that I only know about but I don't think this is what she wants to hear. Anyways, I will move on from this subject soon because I'm sure it's getting annoying to read.


Dozen big red roses works wonders sometimes. But then I've always been Mr Romantic.


----------



## Halien

itsnotmeok said:


> Will someone give me some examples of "I love you for you" stuff. This is an ambiguous topic to me because I don't know how to come up with reasons that aren't something she does or how she makes me feel. Yes, she does and says cute little things that I only know about but I don't think this is what she wants to hear. Anyways, I will move on from this subject soon because I'm sure it's getting annoying to read.


As a disclaimer - I'm assuming you know that words that have meaning to one woman might seem trite, or disingenious to another, so I'll only mention a few things that seem to work for my wife. 

I can't get past the simple fact that my wife's scent on my pillow makes me feel like I'm finally at home after a business trip. I tell her that part of love for me is feeling like I've come home to the one place where everything makes sense, and just her smell gives me that, while nobody else's can. 

I love how she instinctively covers her mouth when she laughs. When she was a little girl, she thought that her front teeth were too big, and that habit never went away when she grew up. She didn't have to tell me why she did it. I study her, and I knew there had to be a reason.

I love that she wants to surround herself with each changing season. She completely redecorates the themes of our home with the seasons. I'm convinced that this is part of her life as a military brat, and she just wants to make each season her own, in her home. She makes each and every holiday perfect in a very unique way. No other woman would do what she does.

She gives me at least four counter options for destinations every time we go out together. It frustrated the ****ens out of me until I realized that she's just working hard to try to make sure I enjoy the meal or date. And the best part is that she laughs when I pick on her about this, and pretends to be mad.

She has this incredible ability to frame choices where a simple 'yes' response can throw her whole discussion into a tailspin. "Would you like to go to Manuel's, or would you prefer Bernardi's?" I respond with nothing but "yes" and I swear it'll leave a bruise when she hits me.

These are just things she does, I agree, and they're seemingly trivial things, but only to prove a point that really seems to affect her: she knows that I study her. I memorize her, and how she is unique. I'm upfront about it, so I've never once had your question come from her.


----------



## itsnotmeok

heartsbeating said:


> I notice you seem quite defensive about advice given here from some of the other posters. Here's the thing though, you posted asking for advice and people have actually bothered to try to help you. Granted you don't need to agree with them, me, or any one here however despite your own slight defensiveness that comes across, people are still trying to help you. I hope you can recognize that.
> 
> You mentioned your wife is trying to listen to some of your music which is a small step with helping intimacy between you. There's more going on than just the question you posted. When you're ready to see that your initial concern is perhaps a small glimpse of a bigger picture, there's a chance you might begin to see what others are seeing here. You still might disagree with some thoughts but keeping an open mind to look at your scenario with different perspective might really help you. Best wishes.


I'm definitely keeping an open mind, I think I've said that already. I know there is more going on than the original question, that's why I'm here. I'm taking all the advice whether it seems like it or not, but some of these guys act like they know exactly what's going on. Maybe they do and I'm clueless while my wife is sucking on big one as I type. FML


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Don't know if we are framing from the same context, but that's a pretty accurate summary.
> Manning up STILL isn't about tricking a woman to be something you want her to be (conversely that's actually what being a 'Nice Guy' is ALL about) It's about recognizing that you can or cannot get what you want with and from a particular woman. I wasn't going to ever have the relationship I wanted with my ex.
> 
> At the end of the day, either your partner loves, you; you love them and you both feel fulfilled ... or you don't.
> 
> Don't doubt for a moment that OP loves his wife. But ... as we have seen time and again ... doesn't matter how he feels about the love he expresses towards her. What matters is how she feels about the love he expresses towards her. It's either working and strengthening their bond, or it isn't working, and their bond is diminished. It's subtle and corrosive.
> 
> You are familiar with what I'm referring to, correct, Trenton? Meant as commiseration between our circumstances, not as a challenge.


I am familiar -but- being a nice guy is about being something you're not and manning up is heading directly in the opposite direction leaving nowhere in the middle to meet, no room for compromise.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> I am familiar -but- being a nice guy is about being something you're not and manning up is heading directly in the opposite direction leaving nowhere in the middle to meet, no room for compromise.


I completely disagree with that summary.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> I completely disagree with that summary.


Yes but that's your default mode with me. Flip the switch.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> Yes but that's your default mode with me. Flip the switch.


You seem to have forgotten all that warmth we generated a few months back.

We put you in remedial "Man-up" occasionally. Perhaps it's time for another semester?


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> You seem to have forgotten all that warmth we generated a few months back.
> 
> We put you in remedial "Man-up" occasionally. Perhaps it's time for another semester?


Why do I feel like you're writing the script for some bad porn movie? It must be reading so many of Ironwood's posts.


----------



## Conrad

It's actually a "good" porn movie.

I used Syrum as a consultant.




Trenton said:


> Why do I feel like you're writing the script for some bad porn movie? It must be reading so many of Ironwood's posts.


----------



## IanIronwood

Trenton said:


> Why do I feel like you're writing the script for some bad porn movie? It must be reading so many of Ironwood's posts.


Again with the porn bashing! Sheeesh!

Like we use scripts, anyway.


----------



## IanIronwood

Trenton said:


> I am familiar -but- being a nice guy is about being something you're not and manning up is heading directly in the opposite direction leaving nowhere in the middle to meet, no room for compromise.


Manning up (red pill) and being a nice guy (blue pill) are both explorations of the masculine psychosexual development within a mature relationship. Both are valid, both are masculine, and a man can use either one to deal with his relationship.

Of course, one gets you laid, and the other doesn't, save at her whim. And one gets you blowjobs, and the other doesn't . . . almost ever.

But if you don't particularly like sex, then by all means, take the blue pill. 

Manning up, on the other hand, is an exploration of the masculine psychosexual landscape without the fear of judgement of or fear of rejection by women. It is a process of engaging your self-awareness in a decidedly masculine hue, re-discovering the ancient, more primal modes of masculinity upon which our human civilization and culture was built. It is about facing your own aggression, your own fears, and your own strengths, mastering your own emotions and intermal landscape, and when done properly it leads to the manifestation of a powerful masculine psyche that neither seeks nor requires the permission of a female -- or even of femininity itself -- to proudly exist.

It also gets you laid much, much more. In case I didn't mention that part.


----------



## Trenton

IanIronwood said:


> Again with the porn bashing! Sheeesh!
> 
> Like we use scripts, anyway.


That was friendly banter, no bashing intended and I apologize if it hurt your feelings Mr. Wood. I'm sure porn stars use scripts but just the kind that Mr. Conrad fills at his pharmacy. (sorry I couldn't resist)


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> That was friendly banter, no bashing intended and I apologize if it hurt your feelings Mr. Wood. I'm sure porn stars use scripts but just the kind that Mr. Conrad fills at his pharmacy. (sorry I couldn't resist)


They fill crank and meth at a pharmacy in Missouri?! So why's everybody gettin' all uppity about medical marijuana in Cali?!


----------



## Trenton

IanIronwood said:


> Manning up (red pill) and being a nice guy (blue pill) are both explorations of the masculine psychosexual development within a mature relationship. Both are valid, both are masculine, and a man can use either one to deal with his relationship.
> 
> Of course, one gets you laid, and the other doesn't, save at her whim. And one gets you blowjobs, and the other doesn't . . . almost ever.
> 
> But if you don't particularly like sex, then by all means, take the blue pill.
> 
> Manning up, on the other hand, is an exploration of the masculine psychosexual landscape without the fear of judgement of or fear of rejection by women. It is a process of engaging your self-awareness in a decidedly masculine hue, re-discovering the ancient, more primal modes of masculinity upon which our human civilization and culture was built. It is about facing your own aggression, your own fears, and your own strengths, mastering your own emotions and intermal landscape, and when done properly it leads to the manifestation of a powerful masculine psyche that neither seeks nor requires the permission of a female -- or even of femininity itself -- to proudly exist.
> 
> It also gets you laid much, much more. In case I didn't mention that part.


"Reality is merely an illusion albeit a very persistent one." -Einstein (not sure if I got this quote perfect but close enough)

My point being that the red pill you refer to is based off of your own painful truth. It's very possible you have it backwards or that you think because your pills are your pills that everyone has the same pills. So many darn possibilities. I actually have another Einstein quote for that..."To raise new questions, new possibilities, to regard old problems from a new angle, requires creative imagination and marks real advance in science." In this case it would mark a real advance in women/men relationships.

Enough about that. I will suggest that doing what you propose with the consent and willingness of a loving, partner (who may be a woman if that's your thing) is the ideal.

So then what's the problem? Is it that women are left out of your equation entirely?--stranded or floating away on their/to their own separate and very different landscape?


----------



## Trenton

Therealbrighteyes said:


> They fill crank and meth at a pharmacy in Missouri?! So why's everybody gettin' all uppity about medical marijuana in Cali?!


Dunno! It's the acceptance of the illogical. It happens all the time but I've no idea why.


----------



## IanIronwood

Trenton said:


> "Reality is merely an illusion albeit a very persistent one." -Einstein (not sure if I got this quote perfect but close enough)


There is nothing illusory about not having the kind of sex life you want. 



Trenton said:


> My point being that the red pill you refer to is based off of your own painful truth. It's very possible you have it backwards or that you think because your pills are your pills that everyone has the same pills. So many darn possibilities.


The red pill/blue pill analogy is quite widely understood. And sure, maybe what his wife wants is even MORE beta. If that's the case, and he's comfortable handing her complete control of his testicles, then he wouldn't be here in the first place.



Trenton said:


> I actually have another Einstein quote for that..."To raise new questions, new possibilities, to regard old problems from a new angle, requires creative imagination and marks real advance in science." In this case it would mark a real advance in women/men relationships.


Feminism did that. Men, in general, are still trying to come to terms with that. But as women tried to re-define femininity according to their own dictates, and eschewed the opinions of men as meaningless or counterproductive, somehow I think the question of redefining masculinity will be answered without a chorus of female voices telling us how we're doing it wrong. So you can imagine our goal here as a reaction to someone else "looking at old problems through a new angle". That new angle beat us all to hell and now we're trying to recover. What "new angle" do you propose that will give us a way to that? 



Trenton said:


> Enough about that. I will suggest that doing what you propose with the consent and willingness of a loving, partner (who may be a woman if that's your thing) is the ideal.


Actually, if you're manning-up, then sharing the details of that with your wife becomes_ highly _counterproductive. The point is to establish a masculine identity independent from your relationship, before you can have a whole-hearted relationship.



Trenton said:


> So then what's the problem? Is it that women are left out of your equation entirely?--stranded or floating away on their/to their own separate and very different landscape?


That's what feminism did to men for thirty years. Time for a little equality, don't you think?


----------



## Trenton

Ah, I see...this is all done in the name of meninism. Well, continue on and when the same issues exist fifty years from now or very similar variations thereof, I guess they'll be a whole 'nother reason.

You sure you don't want to start with a clean slate and hash out men/female sexuality without our preconceptions...in fact, deliberately denying our preconceptions? It might be interesting.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Ian, your posts have me rubbernecking. Kind of like seeing a 7 car pileup. You shouldn't look but you do anyways and then you wish you wouldn't. 
I can safely say I need to keep my eyes on the road. 
T, it's all you. That last sentence had my eyeballs explode. I just don't have it in me to talk him off the ledge of despair and "floating away" like he is Moses in the Nile. Perhaps you can take one for the team.


----------



## IanIronwood

Trenton said:


> Ah, I see...this is all done in the name of meninism.


It's not done in the "name of meninism". It isn't a sociopolitical movement we're talking about here. This is a legitimate and earnest attempt to redefine our masculinity in the wake of feminism's impact on society. The fact that women don't take it seriously is one of the reasons we don't often include them in the process. The condescension, judgement, and unjustified ridicule can be heartbreaking and highly demotivating.



Trenton said:


> Well, continue on and when the same issues exist fifty years from now or very similar variations thereof, I guess they'll be a whole 'nother reason.


Oh, there will be _different_ issues, because our society will look very, very different. Men are starting to realize that marriage does not necessarily serve their interests, women are freaking out about their "fertility options" while essentially ignoring men, and after two more generations of that we'll be so screwed up we'll look on these as the "good ole' days." 



Trenton said:


> You sure you don't want to start with a clean slate and hash out men/female sexuality without our preconceptions...in fact, deliberately denying our preconceptions? It might be interesting.


It might be. But denying biologically mandated preconceptions with 100,000 years of human culture backing them up is going to be a bit difficult. But I'm intrigued by your proposal: just where would you start such a conversation?


----------



## IanIronwood

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Ian, your posts have me rubbernecking. Kind of like seeing a 7 car pileup. You shouldn't look but you do anyways and then you wish you wouldn't.
> I can safely say I need to keep my eyes on the road.
> T, it's all you. That last sentence had my eyeballs explode. I just don't have it in me to talk him off the ledge of despair and "floating away" like he is Moses in the Nile. Perhaps you can take one for the team.


Actually, I'm far from despair. This last six months of observing the Manosphere has been enlightening, especially as men start really questioning the essential assumptions that have been imposed on them. 

I guess that's part of the gender divide: as soon as men start talking about themselves like this, we get compared to a horrific traffic accident or otherwise subjected to guilt and shame over what we say. Not at all what happens when women decide to start talking about themselves.


----------



## Trenton

IanIronwood said:


> It's not done in the "name of meninism". It isn't a sociopolitical movement we're talking about here. This is a legitimate and earnest attempt to redefine our masculinity in the wake of feminism's impact on society. The fact that women don't take it seriously is one of the reasons we don't often include them in the process. The condescension, judgement, and unjustified ridicule can be heartbreaking and highly demotivating.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, there will be _different_ issues, because our society will look very, very different. Men are starting to realize that marriage does not necessarily serve their interests, women are freaking out about their "fertility options" while essentially ignoring men, and after two more generations of that we'll be so screwed up we'll look on these as the "good ole' days."
> 
> 
> 
> It might be. But denying biologically mandated preconceptions with 100,000 years of human culture backing them up is going to be a bit difficult. But I'm intrigued by your proposal: just where would you start such a conversation?


Most movements begin as collective, agreed thought patterns from those who participate within the movement so it might not be meninism yet but if you're successful it will eventually.

As to where you'd start the conversation...you tell me. I can think of here or on a specific blog or a billion other places. If you're game, I'm game then we can outline specifics.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

IanIronwood said:


> Actually, I'm far from despair. This last six months of observing the Manosphere has been enlightening, especially as men start really questioning the essential assumptions that have been imposed on them.
> 
> I guess that's part of the gender divide: as soon as men start talking about themselves like this, we get compared to a horrific traffic accident or otherwise subjected to guilt and shame over what we say. Not at all what happens when women decide to start talking about themselves.


Tsk, tsk, Ian. I didn't compare men to a horrific car accident, I compared me reading your posts to rubbernecking and watching the wreckage. You know you shouldn't but you do anyways.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> As to where you'd start the conversation...you tell me. I can think of here or on a specific blog or a billion other places. If you're game, I'm game then we can outline specifics.


Well I posted a thread about feminism in the Ladies section. Curious as to Ian's thoughts.


----------



## IanIronwood

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Well I posted a thread about feminism in the Ladies section. Curious as to Ian's thoughts.



I'm curious as to how you would start a conversation on male/female relations without bringing in "preconceived notions" about each gender. Men and women have fundamental biological and psychological differences. Starting with biology and psychology as a basis, you still have an awful lot of preconceptions inherent in the argument. Just the reproductive opportunities alone make the whole discussion fraught with landmines. 

For the record, I don't view feminism as evil. It was necessary, for the times, and an inevitable result of the birth control/industrialization revolution and the widespread education of women. A lot of important stuff grew out of feminism. But in the process it helped shatter the masculine self-image into its current abysmal state, and it will take at least a generation for men to formulate a workable response. The ironic thing is this is going to hurt women in the long run more than men. It already is. 

Men, in my opinion, will indeed succeed in establishing a new masculine paradigm, but I'm guessing it won't be with a lot of female input. We're seeing this develop in the Manosphere already. 

And while I see this as more of a psycho-spiritual movement more than a socio-political one, just as feminism manifested a psycho-spiritual aspect, you can count on this developing a socio-political aspect.


----------



## Deejo

Wandering more than a little bit off the range folks.

Ian may go for the porn angle, but I always know who I can count on to pull gender roles into the fray ...

Neither of which are the concern of the OP.


----------



## ManDup

Trenton said:


> Yes, it is very sad that many women would rather be alone raising children, working two jobs and struggling than with a **** of a husband. If given choices, women in unhappy relationships, will begin to choose to get out. We did this all awhile back in another thread. Currently in Japan women are divorcing their husbands more and more and all that had to happen to make that unfold is women's employment equaling more choices for women.
> 
> I won't make this about feminism or equality. If you want happy relationships men and women will have to face one another and recognize that both of their needs have to recognized and met in their relationship. If it leans too far in either direction and there is a choice to get out, one or the other will leave.


What on the actual Earth are you talking about? Women alone with children? What? Anyway, my ex would rather be alone with another woman than with me, so what was your point about gender relations again? Oprah did a segment on women leaving their husbands for other women in late age, but you know what? There were no men on her segment. They and their feelings were ignored. I was not a**** of a husband, I was actually as nice as I could possibly be. Where does that get a man? Nowhere, that is where. Just really, actually, stand aside, the men are talking here. Really.


----------



## ManDup

Trenton said:


> Uh...seriously? The big difference being men are *aware *they are being manipulated by the makeup.
> 
> Yeah. You're not selling me.


The very definition of manipulation is that it flies under the radar of the target. Men for the most part are NOT aware of biological programs being played against them, any more than women are. But tools are tools, and women have been sharing what works for centuries. It's about time men do.


----------



## ManDup

Trenton said:


> Most movements begin as collective, agreed thought patterns from those who participate within the movement so it might not be meninism yet but if you're successful it will eventually.
> 
> As to where you'd start the conversation...you tell me. I can think of here or on a specific blog or a billion other places. If you're game, I'm game then we can outline specifics.


Here's the thing. As far as I know, this is the men's clubhouse. Here, we say what we want to other men. We try to help them. Then women come in and try to debase and devalue what we say. That seems to be your role specifically. Have fun with that.


----------



## IanIronwood

ManDup said:


> Here's the thing. As far as I know, this is the men's clubhouse. Here, we say what we want to other men. We try to help them. Then women come in and try to debase and devalue what we say. That seems to be your role specifically. Have fun with that.


Actually, I've found some very intriguing and thought-provoking comments from the ladies who choose to post here. I do appreciate their insights, even if I don't agree with them -- it gives me greater understanding in how the female mind works in comparison to the male mind.

That's not always a good thing. But it's almost always educational.


----------



## Trenton

ManDup said:


> What on the actual Earth are you talking about? Women alone with children? What? Anyway, my ex would rather be alone with another woman than with me, so what was your point about gender relations again? Oprah did a segment on women leaving their husbands for other women in late age, but you know what? There were no men on her segment. They and their feelings were ignored. I was not a**** of a husband, I was actually as nice as I could possibly be. Where does that get a man? Nowhere, that is where. Just really, actually, stand aside, the men are talking here. Really.


I'm talking about the choices women choose to make when given the opportunity to make choices. 

If you're married to a woman who does not want to be with you it won't matter what you do.

I don't appreciate your manly squared routine anymore than I appreciate the pretend nice guy routine.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Wandering more than a little bit off the range folks.
> 
> Ian may go for the porn angle, but I always know who I can count on to pull gender roles into the fray ...
> 
> Neither of which are the concern of the OP.


Does someone actually send you a message moaning about how it's off topic or are you just prepared to see certain titles go off topic? Does it matter if the OP doesn't care?

I resent the reference to my name in regards to pulling gender roles into the fray when the entire title of this message board by default places gender roles in the fray.

Unlike the ladies lounge where women can't seem to agree on anything from the color of their shoes to whether or not they're too fat, here it's always the same, unified and loud tune.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Does someone actually send you a message moaning about how it's off topic


He has an app for that. It's called the Damnit Trenton's Doin' It Again App. It doesn't ring or vibrate.....it just crows.


----------



## Trenton

Therealbrighteyes said:


> He has an app for that. It's called the Damnit Trenton's Doin' It Again App. It doesn't ring or vibrate.....it just crows.


Somehow I was instead picturing Bob pecking away at his keyboard with succinct taps spelling out, "Feminists are passive aggressively ruining threads again!"


----------



## Conrad

Nothing passive about it.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Does someone actually send you a message moaning about how it's off topic or are you just prepared to see certain titles go off topic? Does it matter if the OP doesn't care?
> 
> I resent the reference to my name in regards to pulling gender roles into the fray when the entire title of this message board by default places gender roles in the fray.
> 
> Unlike the ladies lounge where women can't seem to agree on anything from the color of their shoes to whether or not they're too fat, here it's always the same, unified and loud tune.


We're more fun. And you know it ...

Please note I did not refer to your name. I actually only referred to a male poster.

And occasionally, yes, we are notified by a poster that a thread is being derailed. Not in this case however. I was simply providing a friendly reminder to not wander too far off topic. The discussion is always worthwhile, but not always relevant to the OP's topic.

There just so happens to be a thread in the Ladies Lounge where such discussion would be very germane. 

And I apologize if I offended you. Such was not the intention of my post.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> We're more fun. And you know it ...
> 
> Please note I did not refer to your name. I actually only referred to a male poster.
> 
> And occasionally, yes, we are notified by a poster that a thread is being derailed. Not in this case however. I was simply providing a friendly reminder to not wander too far off topic. The discussion is always worthwhile, but not always relevant to the OP's topic.
> 
> There just so happens to be a thread in the Ladies Lounge where such discussion would be very germane.
> 
> And I apologize if I offended you. Such was not the intention of my post.


Yeah, sorry, I don't stay on topic very often as I just ramble out what I want to say based on what I'm reading and not necessarily on what the original post says. 

You didn't offend me though. I'm not sure what offends me but I've yet to be offended on these boards. 

...but come on, you were talking about me and BrightEyes when you spoke about gender roles, no?


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> Nothing passive about it.


Yeah, you're right, but that wouldn't have fit well with my imagination at that point. Poetic license and whatnot.


----------



## Trenton

I wonder if the irony that the thread is even farther off topic now alludes anyone?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> ...but come on, you were talking about me and BrightEyes when you spoke about gender roles, no?


Yeah, it would have more subtle if he said "gender roles" and then **cough cough Trenton, TRBE, cough cough**. 
But hey, this way he can say he didn't actually "say" our names and we just misinterpreted. How very beta.


----------



## Trenton

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yeah, it would have more subtle if he said "gender roles" and then **cough cough Trenton, TRBE, cough cough**.
> But hey, this way he can say he didn't actually "say" our names and we just misinterpreted. How very beta.


I think he would have added Syrum too. :rofl:


----------



## itsnotmeok

Ok, so I've gone a few days without posting but I've been reading some other threads, athol's blog, and NMMNG. Like I said I have an open mind and want to learn something. If I've come off as defensive, well I'm sure you guys have seen this from new posters, I'm just cautious about what kind of people are feeding me information regardless of the subject. For example, I won't respect the opinion of the PUA douche (can't believe I even just type PUA). 

Anyways, to give you more insight on the relationship please read. After some more conversations, my wife has said she feels like our personalities are not as compatible as they once were. She is very down on herself right now and is withdrawing from me over the past couple of weeks. She's suggested us spending some time apart. Not separating, she just thinks it would be a good idea for me or her to spend one weekend away. When I told her I would stay a couple nights at my parents she started crying and told me to come home. However, when I try to pull closer to her she acts like I'm not taking her concerns about the relationship seriously. 

My questions now is should I give her space for a few days or weeks in this case? What would be the alpha and/or beta action(s) be in my situation? My tendency is to try and fix the problem and be sweet to her. 

And just so you guys don't waste your time, no she is not cheating on me. I know she isn't and I've asked her directly if she is getting any type of needed attention from another male. Your also wasting your time with the "throw her on the bed and blank her suggestions." She ain't going for that at this juncture.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> I think he would have added Syrum too. :rofl:


No he wouldn't.

AFEH's not a porn guy.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> No he wouldn't.
> 
> AFEH's not a porn guy.


She's referring to Burgundy.


----------



## AFEH

itsnotmeok said:


> Ok, so I've gone a few days without posting but I've been reading some other threads, athol's blog, and NMMNG. Like I said I have an open mind and want to learn something. If I've come off as defensive, well I'm sure you guys have seen this from new posters, I'm just cautious about what kind of people are feeding me information regardless of the subject. For example, I won't respect the opinion of the PUA douche (can't believe I even just type PUA).
> 
> Anyways, to give you more insight on the relationship please read. After some more conversations, my wife has said she doesn't feel like our personalities are not as compatible as they once were. She is very down on herself right now and is withdrawing from me over the past couple of weeks. She's suggested us spending some time apart. Not separating, she just thinks it would be a good idea for me or her to spend one weekend away. When I told her I would stay a couple nights at my parents she started crying and told me to come home. However, when I try to pull closer to her she acts like I'm not taking her concerns about the relationship seriously.
> 
> My questions now is should I give her space for a few days or weeks in this case? What would be the alpha and/or beta action(s) be in my situation? My tendency is to try and fix the problem and be sweet to her.
> 
> And just so you guys don't waste your time, no she is not cheating on me. I know she isn't and I've asked her directly if she is getting any type of needed attention from another male. Your also wasting your time with the "throw her on the bed and blank her suggestions." She ain't going for that at this juncture.


Because of the love that’s there we all get hurt somehow in our marriage. Some are able to forgive that hurt and as time goes by it goes into long term memory and for all intents and purposes it’s forgotten. But others, those that do not believe in forgiving, hang onto their hurt and think often about it such that it never goes into long term memory. They carry their hurt with them as they go forward, instead of leaving it where it belongs in the past.

I’m guessing that your wife is holding bitterness and resentment against you for offences from the past. Resentment is strong passive anger and strong dislike held against the “offender”, in this case you. It is my belief that over time this passive anger and dislike slowly but surely kills off the love that was once felt for the other person. Part of the passive anger is that the person with it gradually “runs down” the loving things they used to do for their partner and instead of “actively loving” they start to “actively dislike or hate”.

This is what happened in my marriage. We were together a long time, 42 years. On our journey I always healed my pain from the times my wife hurt me, and sometimes she hurt me deeply but I always healed it by forgiving her. My wife was the opposite. She hung onto just about everything and that finally killed my love for her. I found and still find I cannot forgive my wife the way she hung onto her pain and become an exceedingly bitter and resentful woman.

In the years that we were married I found no solution to this bitterness and resentment thing. But you may want to try going on a marriage enrichment program, I was unaware of them. In these programs they teach forgiveness as one of the foundations of a happy and loving marriage and good conflict resolution techniques such that bitterness and resentment are kept out of the relationship. Take a look at Alpha Marriage Course | Emmanuel Methodist Church for more information.


----------



## Halien

In my opinion, AFEH is spot on with the resentment possiblity. It also seems that people who go into marriage with unrealistic expectations can be especially susceptable to harboring resentment. Because she doubts your love, its easier to harbor doubts and resentment that become cemented in her mind.

Your willingness to take her at her word by leaving for a time, and letting her know that such a mindset is not acceptable to you is probably your best hope to overcome. Instead of rugsweeping or trying to minimize, you show her that you expect change. You can wholeheartedly love her while still telling her that the status quo is no longer good enough.


----------



## Deejo

A few very simple things to help you move forward.

Pay attention.

Pay attention to what she DOES, not what she SAYS.

Talking is great, but only if the outcome of those talks directly impacts behavior and interaction between the two of you.

Conversely, make sure that you are clear on your words and actions.

"Well done, is always better than well said."
"Actions speak louder than words."
"Deeds, not words."

Keep those in mind moving forward. Apply them to yourself, and to your wife.

Is this all out of left field to you? Or can you clearly see or identify how and where along the progression of your relationship that your wife has lost attraction/respect, or built up resentment for you?

And make no mistake, that is what it is. For all of the discussions or unfortunate stories that you can find here regarding cheating or infidelity, the choice to cheat has a singular root ... loss of attraction, desire, and respect for a partner.


----------



## itsnotmeok

Halien said:


> In my opinion, AFEH is spot on with the resentment possiblity. It also seems that people who go into marriage with unrealistic expectations can be especially susceptable to harboring resentment. Because she doubts your love, its easier to harbor doubts and resentment that become cemented in her mind.
> 
> Your willingness to take her at her word by leaving for a time, and letting her know that such a mindset is not acceptable to you is probably your best hope to overcome. Instead of rugsweeping or trying to minimize, you show her that you expect change. You can wholeheartedly love her while still telling her that the status quo is no longer good enough.


Your sentence is somewhat confusing. Are you saying her mindset or my mindset or both? We've gotten past the suggestion of me leaving the house. I'm asking if I should give her space and not smother her by talking the issue to death. Do you think she will respond to me more if I don't seem desperate to solve the issue? I'm not saying act blase about the issue.

I think resentment is a real possibility. My wife is good about saying she's sorry when she makes a mistake, but I don't know if she is good about letting go when others hurt her. Neither one of us has done anything dishonorable to be resentful of, but I can see how my attitude over a long period of time could have worn on my wife.


----------



## itsnotmeok

Deejo said:


> A few very simple things to help you move forward.
> 
> Pay attention.
> 
> Pay attention to what she DOES, not what she SAYS.
> 
> Talking is great, but only if the outcome of those talks directly impacts behavior and interaction between the two of you.
> 
> Conversely, make sure that you are clear on your words and actions.
> 
> "Well done, is always better than well said."
> "Actions speak louder than words."
> "Deeds, not words."
> 
> Keep those in mind moving forward. Apply them to yourself, and to your wife.
> 
> Is this all out of left field to you? Or can you clearly see or identify how and where along the progression of your relationship that your wife has lost attraction/respect, or built up resentment for you?
> 
> And make no mistake, that is what it is. For all of the discussions or unfortunate stories that you can find here regarding cheating or infidelity, the *choice* to cheat has a singular root ... loss of attraction, desire, and respect for a partner.



The seriousness of her feelings are somewhat out of left field. Just a few weeks ago I would never have guessed she would be this upset about our relationship. However, I can see how my poor attitude could have worn on her over the past year or so. 

And make no mistake, you are hung up on this infidelity issue. I realize that the "choice" to cheat is set in motion by these factors but just as you said it's a choice. I don't care to convince you but her and I would never choice this option. I plan on making some changes in my behavior so the attraction and respect will come back strong. If she cheats on me than you can say I told you so and if she doesn't you can take credit for my change in behavior for her not grabbing the next guys ****


----------



## Deejo

You're focusing on the wrong thing.

I am not hung up on infidelity. I am not claiming your wife is, or is going to cheat on you.

What I can tell you with 100% certainty, is that based upon her behavior and revelations to you, that she no longer feels secure about your relationship, or her attraction to you.

With those circumstances in place ... infidelity is a possible outcome. Her leaving you is a possible outcome. Her growing more resentful, distant, and less engaged is an outcome.

I am presuming that you would like to avoid ANY of these outcomes.

Thus paying attention to what she is DOING to remedy the situation as opposed to what she says she is going to do, or how she feels becomes very important.

As much as you may wish to understandably frame your circumstances as unique, they are not. I do not state that with disrespect. The circumstances you frame are downright pedestrian. So are the outcomes. They are virtually cookie-cutter. This isn't a claim to minimize what is happening. It is an effort to make clear to you that her behavior or effort in reconnecting will tell you far more about where she stands, than do the words and tears she is likely to express.

Seriously, I'm not looking to say 'I told you so...'. Would like nothing more than to see you and your spouse recover and rediscover.

Take the advice given here with a grain of salt. But do know that many, many, here have been in the very circumstances you now find yourself in.


----------



## itsnotmeok

Deejo said:


> You're focusing on the wrong thing.
> 
> I am not hung up on infidelity. I am not claiming your wife is, or is going to cheat on you.
> 
> What I can tell you with 100% certainty, is that based upon her behavior and revelations to you, that she no longer feels secure about your relationship, or her attraction to you.
> 
> With those circumstances in place ... infidelity is a possible outcome. Her leaving you is a possible outcome. Her growing more resentful, distant, and less engaged is an outcome.
> 
> I am presuming that you would like to avoid ANY of these outcomes.


So your just trying to get me to understand the gravity of the situation? I'm living it, I think I might understand. I'm here trying to learn so the preaching about what will or could happen if I don't change is a moot point.


----------



## Deejo

You always this defensive?

Best of luck.


----------



## Halien

itsnotmeok said:


> Your sentence is somewhat confusing. Are you saying her mindset or my mindset or both? We've gotten past the suggestion of me leaving the house. I'm asking if I should give her space and not smother her by talking the issue to death. Do you think she will respond to me more if I don't seem desperate to solve the issue? I'm not saying act blase about the issue.
> 
> I think resentment is a real possibility. My wife is good about saying she's sorry when she makes a mistake, but I don't know if she is good about letting go when others hurt her. Neither one of us has done anything dishonorable to be resentful of, but I can see how my attitude over a long period of time could have worn on my wife.


The mindset in question is her suggestion that the two of you should seperate for a bit. I don't think that just getting past this is necessarily a good thing, either.

We're not trying to attack you, but there seems to be some very serious, very scary thoughts going on in her mind, based on what you are saying. She doesn't think that you can clearly state a reason that you love her. Hence, you could love anyone in her place. That strongly implies that she is wondering if the two of you just weren't made for each other. Add a half cup of resentment in there, and you often end up with someone sho spends a lot of time thinking about why you two were maybe a mistake, and possibly wondering 'what could have been.'

Maybe she isn't at this place yet, where she's thinking of what could've been, but her thoughts and energy seem to be directed towards judging the relationship. They need to be directed towards fixing the relationship. The direction change usually comes about when a person begins to realize that you will eventually cease talking it to death, or even giving them space to keep thinking about it.

I think this goes along with what Deejo is saying. She's spending her energy and thoughts on what is wrong with the relationship, instead of how she can grow closer. Who can tell where it will lead, other than to say its not very likely that it'll lead to a closer relationship.

I'll leave the thread alone, but some of us were really trying to offer insight from our own experiences.


----------



## itsnotmeok

Deejo said:


> You always this defensive?
> 
> Best of luck.


Always this smug? ...... Now that you went back and edited your earlier post, I can see that you're just trying to help. You're only trying to get it through a newbies thick skull to be mindful of what is happening. 

Thank you.


----------



## Conrad

itsnotmeok said:


> Always this smug? ...... Now that you went back and edited your earlier post, I can see that you're just trying to help. You're only trying to get it through a newbies thick skull to be mindful of what is happening.
> 
> Thank you.


Seriously, why ask questions if you merely want people to agree with what you already think?


----------



## AFEH

You know some people have some truly convoluted ways of communicating. If your wife is an indirect type of person and one that doesn’t want to cause “hurt” (Nice Guy/Woman syndrome), it may be that instead of telling you she doesn’t love you very much, she’s asking you how much and in which ways you love her. When you did put the same question back to her, which is maybe what her questioning is all about, she came up with just two reasons why she loves you. I bet you weren’t convinced that she does really love you. You may want to think on that for a while.


----------



## ManDup

itsnotmeok said:


> The seriousness of her feelings are somewhat out of left field. Just a few weeks ago I would never have guessed she would be this upset about our relationship. However, I can see how my poor attitude could have worn on her over the past year or so.
> 
> And make no mistake, you are hung up on this infidelity issue. I realize that the "choice" to cheat is set in motion by these factors but just as you said it's a choice. I don't care to convince you but her and I would never choice this option. I plan on making some changes in my behavior so the attraction and respect will come back strong. If she cheats on me than you can say I told you so and if she doesn't you can take credit for my change in behavior for her not grabbing the next guys ****


Meh. I think it's 50/50 she is already cheating or thinking very strongly about it. Sending you away (for "space") is a huge red flag, and her ambivalence just suggests second thoughts which are also consistent with cheaters. Here's a newsflash: cheaters lie. So you might want to get some actual data to back up your strong feeling that she isn't cheating. After all, if she's faithful, what does it hurt for you to have some data to say, "I told you so. She's not cheating." Or, you can just take it as an attack by me on her character or yours, and go about your way. Whatever works. I'll be back in 6 pages when you've figured out she's cheating and want advice then.


----------



## itsnotmeok

ManDup said:


> Meh. I think it's 50/50 she is already cheating or thinking very strongly about it. Sending you away (for "space") is a huge red flag, and her ambivalence just suggests second thoughts which are also consistent with cheaters. Here's a newsflash: cheaters lie. So you might want to get some actual data to back up your strong feeling that she isn't cheating. After all, if she's faithful, what does it hurt for you to have some data to say, "I told you so. She's not cheating." Or, you can just take it as an attack by me on her character or yours, and go about your way. Whatever works. I'll be back in 6 pages when you've figured out she's cheating and want advice then.



Did someone cheat on you?


----------



## jaqs

I have asked my husband similar questions many times. I don't know if our situations are alike, but I can tell you what I was looking for. [My husband was perfectly happy in our marriage because he was content with minimal interaction. He did not think what I asked for from the relationship was necessary, so did as little as possible towards those things.] 

I wanted evidence that he valued me and my unique strengths, and a reason to believe that our marriage was based on something other than the need for a quick piece of @$$ on demand. As someone said earlier, anyone can clean. Why did you pick me for this particular hell? What is it about me that keeps you here? I wanted to know that he actually paid attention to who I am, what I'm interested in, what I'm good at, what I'm proud of and he likes some/most of that. If your husband doesn't like or even pay attention to the 'you' you believe yourself to be, does he really love you? 

Also, even us plain janes want our men to tell us we're beautiful and sexy in our own unique way.


----------



## itsnotmeok

ManDup said:


> Meh. I think it's 50/50 she is already cheating or thinking very strongly about it. Sending you away (for "space") is a huge red flag, and her ambivalence just suggests second thoughts which are also consistent with cheaters. Here's a newsflash: cheaters lie. So you might want to get some actual data to back up your strong feeling that she isn't cheating. After all, if she's faithful, what does it hurt for you to have some data to say, "I told you so. She's not cheating." Or, you can just take it as an attack by me on her character or yours, and go about your way. Whatever works. I'll be back in 6 pages when you've figured out she's cheating and want advice then.



Man this sucks. You guys knew what you were talking about. I found out that she's been cheating on me with some guy at she meet through work. His name is Phil. WTF? She cheated on me with a guy named Phil. Never say this coming. Put my life on the line and this is what I get? Angry to the point that I might, probably shouldn't say. Thinking about moving across the country.


----------



## wemogirl

itsnotmeok said:


> Man this sucks. You guys knew what you were talking about. I found out that she's been cheating on me with some guy at she meet through work. His name is Phil. WTF? She cheated on me with a guy named Phil. Never say this coming. Put my life on the line and this is what I get? Angry to the point that I might, probably shouldn't say. Thinking about moving across the country.


Wow...I am so, so sorry to hear this.


----------



## DoYouWoo

Listen, you sound like an awesome guy who's done little wrong here. Don't beat yourself up about how this has all panned out. You deserve better and eventually you'll get it. I am sad it's turned out the way it has.


----------



## Deejo

Cripes, I'm really sorry.

You'll find plenty of support on the boards should you choose.

Take care of yourself. Seriously.


----------



## itsnotmeok

His name is Phil Connors he's a meteorologist from Pittsburgh. What an *******!


----------



## Soccerfan73

itsnotmeok said:


> His name is Phil Connors he's a meteorologist from Pittsburgh. What an *******!


Bill Murray's character in the movie "Groundhog Day"?


----------



## Halien

itsnotmeok said:


> His name is Phil Connors he's a meteorologist from Pittsburgh. What an *******!


So sorry for what you are going through!!


----------



## Conrad

itsnotmeok said:


> His name is Phil Connors he's a meteorologist from Pittsburgh. What an *******!


Sorry we were tough on you.

Also sorry about the pain you're experiencing.

But, better to be awake and able to deal with it.


----------



## AFEH

Soccerfan73 said:


> Bill Murray's character in the movie "Groundhog Day"?


Sounds like a wind up.


----------



## Conrad

AFEH said:


> Sounds like a wind up.


Sometimes one gets the feeling they're being trolled/played.

But, a supportive post is never really all that difficult.


----------

