# Has there been one false alarm yet?



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

This is focused on unfaithful women but another thread could easily be started about unfaithful men, so let's try to keep this on topic as much as possible.

Whenever a man posts an original message filled with red flags like ILYBINILWY, withholding sex, being glued to the cellphone, new underwear that he has never seen before, and so on, a number of relatively long-time posters will say "She's cheating on you or is planning to do so as soon as she can.".

Then other posters will say "Why do you always jump to conclusions? Maybe this time it's different!"

Assuming that the OP sticks around rather than disappearing permanently after his original post, has it *ever *turned out that "this time it's different"?

I ask this because I can't recall a time when that happened, but maybe I'm just not recalling it.

Thanks.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

i for one am not one of the 'she/he must be cheating' barkers. 
i like to give the benefit of the doubt and see what's really going on.

i'm willing to bet there are numerous instances where the broken ILYBINILWY situations weren't cheating.
you'd have to do a massive search in this forum to find out the %.

i spend a lot of time in the CWI forum. i'm in a happy marriage now, but iv'e been cheated on in the past and you never really get over it.
it haunts you forever.

i will say this: it is just downright uncanny how some of the regulars there call it out after a few posts and it ALMOST always turns out to be true.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

i should amend that to say forums across the board where things are awry, not just CWI.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

One that I recall from years ago. Gentleman came here with some issues in the marriage. Some of the regular red flags but the kicker was a pair of woman's stained panties in the laundry hamper that he didn't recognize. Got the bull rush from members and he confronted his wife which she denied, denied, denied. It apparently got pretty ugly. He received a call from his son a few days later who informed him the panties were his girl friend's from college and had gotten mixed in with his laundry on his last trip home. 

There were a couple of others that I recall but not the specifics. After dealing with ****ed up families, spouses and relationships here for 8 years, they tend to blend in together.


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## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Yes, there have been a few, but I'd argue it is rare. Yes, even on other boards. What's crazy is when the few threads that turn uglywith both sides bickering and the poster comes back months or years later saying "yeah, you guys were right."


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

If there are a lot of red flags, there's usually a reason for that. 

I think what many people object to, though, is the seeming rush by some posters to shout "she's obviously cheating" when there really aren't all that many red flags. Or worse, when the "red flags" seem to be mostly in the poster's imagination or in the imaginations of those telling him she must be cheating. 

Know a great way to completely tank a marriage? Foster a sense of paranoia and righteous indignation in one of the partners, while simultaneously ignoring any and all legitimate issues the couple might be having.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

technovelist said:


> Assuming that the OP sticks around rather than disappearing permanently after his original post, has it *ever *turned out that "this time it's different"?


Betrayeds getting lambasted and leaving after a short period happens more often than the average users ever sees. They generally delete their posts and in the explanation section of the delete list things like "**** this place" "I don't need this crap" and so on.

If they have been treated unfairly, I will generally issue a temp ban on the offender and send an email to the BS and ask them to return. They rarely do.

There can be a fine line here between giving it to them straight and projecting one's own anger at them. IMHO, it happens a lot.

As far as the 900 batting average, I think it's a skewed number. My experience tells me that by the time a spouse decides to come to a place like TAM, the marriage is already in critical mass and an affair is already underway. They are pretty much tossing us meat-balls.


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

I don't jump to that conclusion because I am not a cheater. I have been in a miserable marriage, but I don't think cheating was ever really the issue with us. If he did, I don't know about it, and honestly don't want to know. 

I have known people in real life who were faithful even when their partners doubted. Many times. Then again, I have known several people in real life who have been unfaithful. I would be willing to bet it probably hovers around 50/50 in all honesty.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

I get what you're saying, OP. If you have suspicions, there could be something there. But especially if you have been cheated on before, the tendency is to assume that anything wrong in the relationship is cheating. Marriage and relationships are too precious to throw away without evidence. I don't think anybody regularly says not to get evidence before confronting. At least if someone suspects their spouse and it turns out it wasn't cheating, but something else causing lack of sex or whatever other things they notice, they have the opportunity to fix what's wrong with the relationship or give a shot at working on it. It saddens me every time I see someone's suspicions turn out to be true. But I like to try and keep an open mind, because at the end of the day, it's important to still have faith in people unless you have evidence that they have done something wrong. Does that make sense?


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

If my husband came here and posted the following about me:

-she started dieting and exercising and has lost weight
-bought herself sexy underwear
-she goes out at night with girlfriends
-she goes on weekend's away with girlfriends
-she has withheld sex in the past
-she's having more sex with me
-she has a good friend that's male
-she's told me two years ago that she was unhappy with our marriage

there would be posters here that would tell him I'm cheating and to snoop and VAR up.

And those posters would be completely wrong.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

I can think of two, maybe three without researching, where red flags were evident and the ILYBINILWY was clearly given. Two played out and well documented here. The other, where the "affair is right under your nose" posters pushed the OP to leave here for another board. All were WAW without infidelities, that reconciled.

YMMV


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> Betrayeds getting lambasted and leaving after a short period happens more often than the average users ever sees. They generally delete their posts and in the explanation section of the delete list things like "**** this place" "I don't need this crap" and so on.
> 
> If they have been treated unfairly, I will generally issue a temp ban on the offender and send an email to the BS and ask them to return. They rarely do.


I explained this in another thread, but only Waywards are treated poorly according to the belief of some posters. I think it gets equally ugly on both sides.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

soccermom2three said:


> If my husband came here and posted the following about me:
> 
> -she started dieting and exercising and has lost weight
> -bought herself sexy underwear
> ...


Yep, I have had several of the "red flags" before and have felt and said ILYBINILWY before. H would had been told I was cheating and it would have made things so much worse.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

There is a guy that has posted for the past couple of years, (I can't remember his name right now), he is suspicious that his wife is having an affair with a coworker but he hasn't uncovered any evidence at all. This is just my opinion, but I don't get the vibe from his posts that his wife is having an affair. I think he's totally sabotaging his marriage with his false accusations and appears weak and insecure to his wife.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

joannacroc said:


> I get what you're saying, OP. If you have suspicions, there could be something there. But especially if you have been cheated on before, the tendency is to assume that anything wrong in the relationship is cheating. Marriage and relationships are too precious to throw away without evidence. I don't think anybody regularly says not to get evidence before confronting. At least if someone suspects their spouse and it turns out it wasn't cheating, but something else causing lack of sex or whatever other things they notice, they have the opportunity to fix what's wrong with the relationship or give a shot at working on it. It saddens me every time I see someone's suspicions turn out to be true. But I like to try and keep an open mind, because at the end of the day, it's important to still have faith in people unless you have evidence that they have done something wrong. Does that make sense?


Please note that this is not about me. I'm happily married and don't have any reason to suspect my wife of anything.

But to answer your question about whether we should have faith in people unless we have evidence that they have done something wrong: that depends on what you mean by evidence.

I think that the red flags are so commonly borne out by events that when they come up, it is wise to do a little investigation. It's a lot easier to stop problems at the beginning rather than waiting until it is 100% certain that they are serious.

Does that make sense?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

soccermom2three said:


> If my husband came here and posted the following about me:
> 
> -she started dieting and exercising and has lost weight
> -bought herself sexy underwear
> ...


So how long have you been cheating on your husband?










*Just kidding!*

To me the biggest red flags boil down to an unwillingness to be transparent. When I see things like "he takes his phone pretty much everywhere, even to the bathroom" or "she changed all of her passwords" or "I picked up his phone the other day to check something and he freaked out"... that's all it takes to convince me that infidelity has entered the picture, and I'll call it out -- and unabashedly so -- every. single. time.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> To me the biggest red flags boil down to an unwillingness to be transparent. When I see things like "he takes his phone pretty much everywhere, even to the bathroom" or "she changed all of her passwords" or "I picked up his phone the other day to check something and he freaked out"... that's all it takes to convince me that infidelity has entered the picture, and I'll call it out -- and unabashedly so -- every. single. time.


I totally agree with you. Protecting the phone is a huge red flag.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

soccermom2three said:


> I totally agree with you. Protecting the phone is a huge red flag.


Yep. That's how my wife got busted.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

We had a guy here maybe 2 years ago who had some typical red flags. His wife was withdrawing and was being secretive with her phone. I think he came across an email which looked a bit suspicious. He installed a VAR in her car and discovered that she was deeply unhappy in the marriage but was definitely not in an affair. Iirc she had been conversing with her sister or a female friend about the marriage problems.

I wish I could remember the guy's name. Anyhow, he used the info from the VAR to do some self-reflection and to become a better husband. He turned around his marriage.

In his case the red flags were not as bold as most, though certainly looked like he was going to find out she was cheating.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

I seem to recall that @BillEBoy was seeing a number of red flags. Turned out that his wife wasn't cheating but rather was confiding in a close (female) friend via a number that he hadn't previously noticed. Their situation was a bit more complicated than most, as they (mostly she) were still mourning her adult daughter's suicide, as well as taking care of her daughter's child.

There may have been some light drug use as well (MJ, IIRC, and also involving the friend), but apparently he was OK w/ that.

I also want to say that she wound up finding the VAR that he'd deployed in her car, as well as the spyware that he'd installed on her phone. Seemed tragic at the time, but -- looking back on it -- it was actually kind of funny.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

all i know is that in the two previous LTR relationships where i got cheated on, there were red flags and i ignored them, 
because i didn't want to believe them. i didn't listen to my gut, or if i did, i ignored it.

i would tell myself i'm being paranoid. i would ruminate and rationalize why she might be cheating, and why she might not be.
the 'might not be' always won out until, i would start digging, and even then.

i was naive and i still am. i was like tons of guys/gals that come on here almost every day and say "NO; it just can't be!"
but every instance where my gut told me something was wrong, it was.
although i didn't find out till much (weeks/months) later.

it was probably even much worse than i ever found out even. although those relationships are long in the past and
probably shouldn't matter, if i were to know the full truth i would probably be aghast. it would be much worse than i ever found out.

were there's smoke, there's fire, and if you do nothing you get burned. bad.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

Thor said:


> We had a guy here maybe 2 years ago who had some typical red flags. His wife was withdrawing and was being secretive with her phone. I think he came across an email which looked a bit suspicious. He installed a VAR in her car and discovered that she was deeply unhappy in the marriage but was definitely not in an affair. Iirc she had been conversing with her sister or a female friend about the marriage problems.
> 
> I wish I could remember the guy's name. Anyhow, he used the info from the VAR to do some self-reflection and to become a better husband. He turned around his marriage.
> 
> In his case the red flags were not as bold as most, though certainly looked like he was going to find out she was cheating.


Had she found the VAR and discovered that his first suspicion was her cheating that could well have gone completely the other way. 

I'm on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt. There have been many posts without even a little red flag when the VAR, "go full spy mode" crowd springs up over nothing. 

This supposedly support forum descends into a witch hunt forum far too easily in my opinion.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

soccermom2three said:


> There is a guy that has posted for the past couple of years, (I can't remember his name right now), he is suspicious that his wife is having an affair with a coworker but he hasn't uncovered any evidence at all. This is just my opinion, but I don't get the vibe from his posts that his wife is having an affair. I think he's totally sabotaging his marriage with his false accusations and appears weak and insecure to his wife.


I have a close friend who's husband has been pulling this crap on her for years.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

I remember the guy that got his wife to take a lie detector and she passed it. Can't 
remember the thread. He thought she was too cozy with work colleague.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

ButtPunch said:


> I remember the guy that got his wife to take a lie detector and she passed it. Can't
> remember the thread. He thought she was too cozy with work colleague.


That's the guy I'm talking about!


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> To me the biggest red flags boil down to an unwillingness to be transparent. When I see things like "he takes his phone pretty much everywhere, even to the bathroom" or "she changed all of her passwords" or "I picked up his phone the other day to check something and he freaked out"... that's all it takes to convince me that infidelity has entered the picture, and I'll call it out -- and unabashedly so -- every. single. time.


Yep, this is a red flag

IMO the ILYBINILWY feelings and being closed off and distant, not wanting sex are all red flags that there is an issue in the marriage and needs aren't being met. Maybe they just got lazy and take each other for granted but they are unhappy in their marriage. Unhappy people are more likely to have a (*ahem* non-excusable) affair. So they see the signs of unhappiness and often they uncover an affair.

I'd love to see a series of posts where a husband comes on with "red flags" of an affair and is told to 180, go to the gym, get looking nice and go out with the guys, do things on your own, spy. 
Then the wife comes and says "my marriage has been in a rut and now my husband has been acting suspicious, staying late at the gym and going out with the guys looking nice and not coming home until late"
Then she gets told he's having an affair and it just goes around and around. :laugh:


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Yep. That's how my wife got busted.


What was weird about my SIL was her phone wasn't password protected and she would leave it lying around. One day my naive BIL sends my husband screen shots of conversations between SIL and OM and he's like, "There's nothing suspicious, they just don't make sense." He felt so stupid when we told him that she was deleting just the damning texts.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

technovelist said:


> Please note that this is not about me. I'm happily married and don't have any reason to suspect my wife of anything.
> 
> But to answer your question about whether we should have faith in people unless we have evidence that they have done something wrong: that depends on what you mean by evidence.
> 
> ...


I never said you thought your wife was cheating on you. My point was, I guess, that a lot of folks on here have been cheated on (myself included) or are on the boards because they have or have had marital troubles. A lot of them are hurting and so when they read about troubling behavior in other folks relationships, tend to have a knee jerk reaction of "cheating" when it isn't necessarily true.

To a certain degree your post makes sense to me, even if I don't agree with all of it. You make some interesting points, and it seems we're agreeing on one basic point - get hard evidence and do some digging if you suspect something is off. But to immediately tell someone who sees red flags that their spouse is cheating before we have more information is to do them a disservice. Dig a little? Absolutely. Get more information so they can make an informed decision? Yes. But jump on the bandwagon of "they're cheating" the minute they finish typing is a bit premature.

But if all I wanted to do was read my own opinion over and over again I would never have a conversation with anyone, so I value your input and that of the other posters even when I don't agree.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

joannacroc said:


> I never said you thought your wife was cheating on you. My point was, I guess, that a lot of folks on here have been cheated on (myself included) or are on the boards because they have or have had marital troubles. A lot of them are hurting and so when they read about troubling behavior in other folks relationships, tend to have a knee jerk reaction of "cheating" when it isn't necessarily true.
> 
> To a certain degree your post makes sense to me, even if I don't agree with all of it. You make some interesting points, and it seems we're agreeing on one basic point - get hard evidence and do some digging if you suspect something is off. But to immediately tell someone who sees red flags that their spouse is cheating before we have more information is to do them a disservice. Dig a little? Absolutely. Get more information so they can make an informed decision? Yes. But jump on the bandwagon of "they're cheating" the minute they finish typing is a bit premature.
> 
> But if all I wanted to do was read my own opinion over and over again I would never have a conversation with anyone, so I value your input and that of the other posters even when I don't agree.


The false alarms are very very rare however.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Pattern of DRASTIC change does have concern of cheating to it. 

Changes in appearance is one
Chances in demeanor is another
Changes in how secret and aloof they become is another

I think at times what is misunderstood is that when people say start diggin they are asking for the possibility to be eliminated. Just rarely seems to be the case


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

The only reason I typically post in infidelity type threads is because everyone is shouting affair and I don't see it. I can remember one off the top of my head, Sofaking's thread. I don't want to rehash his thread here but that guy is one paranoid dude and being here fed his demon! There was another one at about the same time that got pretty nasty. A few absolutely insisted the wife was having an affair and a few of us absolutely insisted the "red flags" we're imaginary.

Then there was the thread recently in which a man posted his wife wanted a divorce,Moshe was depressed and angry at him and want to leave him...oh and she was 12 weeks post partum which throws all of that into doubt because her hormones are whacked.

So I can't say how often it happens. But it happens with regularity.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

My thinking is this:

If a spouse is exhibiting behaviours like they are cheating, and they actually are cheating, then moving forward with that assumption is good. 

If a spouse is exhibiting those same behaviours and not actually cheating, then there are systemic problems there that can be straightforwardly brought out if the other spouse draws the natural conclusion that they are being cheated on. 

I.e. If a wife starts buying sexy underwear, tells her husband ILYBINILWY, and is gone out late all the time and hiding her phone... But isn't cheating... Well it shouldn't be a surprise to her that her husband thinks she is. 

Same goes if it's the husband doing similar things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> My thinking is this:
> 
> If a spouse is exhibiting behaviours like they are cheating, and they actually are cheating, then moving forward with that assumption is good.
> 
> ...


Right, if your wife is acting like she's single there are problems. Unfortunately, everyone defines what marriage looks like differently. Some of the regular posters here have a vastly different idea than I do about what marriage looks like.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I posted quite a while back about a situation where I bought my wife a bunch of sexy lingerie which never saw any action. I had a few posters tell me it was an affair.

Turns out she just didn't want to have sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Pattern of DRASTIC change does have concern of cheating to it.
> 
> Changes in appearance is one
> Chances in demeanor is another
> ...


See, and that's just it...

A certain behavior (or even a _set_ of behaviors) in and of itself doesn't necessarily constitute a red flag.

But a significant CHANGE in behavior...?

Better start digging.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> Right, if your wife is acting like she's single there are problems. Unfortunately, everyone defines what marriage looks like differently. Some of the regular posters here have a vastly different idea than I do about what marriage looks like.


I think, for me, a big part of a spouse having their head on a swivel and with their feet firmly on solid ground in the real world... means that you look at changes in behaviour.

Not necessarily suspiciously, but to pay attention.

Someone who's paranoid will increase their paranoia after someone here says "they're cheating," sure.

But that doesn't mean they are not cheating, or vice versa, that their spouse shouldn't know they're married to someone that's paranoid.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Fozzy said:


> I posted quite a while back about a situation where I bought my wife a bunch of sexy lingerie which never saw any action. I had a few posters tell me it was an affair.
> 
> Turns out she just didn't want to have sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sure the thank you cards from the milkman and mailman were coincidences.

I'M KIDDING!


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Right, if your wife is acting like she's single there are problems. Unfortunately, everyone defines what marriage looks like differently. Some of the regular posters here have a vastly different idea than I do about what marriage looks like.


Agreed. Some of the posters here seem to be living in the movie 
"Pleasantville" , and are looking for Big Bob to lead them back to the promised land.

Hey, but if Big Bob isn't available, I guess Ozzie & Harriet will do.

They are very sad people.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

marduk said:


> My thinking is this:
> 
> If a spouse is exhibiting behaviours like they are cheating, and they actually are cheating, then moving forward with that assumption is good.
> 
> ...


I agree with the red flags make it pretty likely especially if someone is super secretive about their phone or wiping their browser data every time they log off the PC.

But the responses here aren't of the "well that is a red flag and you may want to look for others" the responses they get are typically of the "there's no doubt that she is certainly cheating", "if she and the other guy haven't had sex already then they soon will".

To someone who is emotionally vulnerable that is like throwing gasoline on the fire, and it doesn't help the OP who needs to be approaching the situation keeping a level head.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

WonkyNinja said:


> I agree with the red flags make it pretty likely especially if someone is super secretive about their phone or wiping their browser data every time they log off the PC.
> 
> But the responses here aren't of the "well that is a red flag and you may want to look for others" the responses they get are typically of the "there's no doubt that she is certainly cheating", "if she and the other guy haven't had sex already then they soon will".
> 
> To someone who is emotionally vulnerable that is like throwing gasoline on the fire, and it doesn't help the OP who needs to be approaching the situation keeping a level head.


I hear you sometimes that people hit the panic switch for no reason.

My favorite one was "my wife is having a lot of sex with me all of a sudden" and the answer was "she's cheating!"

Instead of "congrats!"


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Most of the time the signs are correct and so is the gut feeling. It's a rarity when it's not.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> I posted quite a while back about a situation where I bought my wife a bunch of sexy lingerie which never saw any action. I had a few posters tell me it was an affair.
> 
> Turns out she just didn't want to have sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, that isn't a red flag. A red flag would be that you find out independently that she has sexy underwear that you have never seen before.


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

technovelist said:


> This is focused on unfaithful women but another thread could easily be started about unfaithful men, so let's try to keep this on topic as much as possible.
> 
> Whenever a man posts an original message filled with red flags like ILYBINILWY, withholding sex, being glued to the cellphone, new underwear that he has never seen before, and so on, a number of relatively long-time posters will say "She's cheating on you or is planning to do so as soon as she can.".
> 
> ...


Wanna hear that from a cheaters perspective? Because when I first joined, I was met with a whole lot of vitriol and venom how I wasn't being truthful...I wasn't sincere...I showed no remorse...How I'm not "transparent"...There were a helluvalot of TAM members who jumped to conclusions, yet here I am almost one year later and "we" are still together and "we" love one another, and "we" are making it work.

You think any recall that? You think that any of them will say 4 years down the road "You know what MR? I misjudged you. You proved me wrong."

I won't hold my breath. I'm not an idiot.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

MountainRunner said:


> Wanna hear that from a cheaters perspective? Because when I first joined, I was met with a whole lot of vitriol and venom how I wasn't being truthful...I wasn't sincere...I showed no remorse...How I'm not "transparent"...There were a helluvalot of TAM members who jumped to conclusions, yet here I am almost one year later and "we" are still together and "we" love one another, and "we" are making it work.
> 
> You think any recall that? You think that any of them will say 4 years down the road "You know what MR? I misjudged you. You proved me wrong."
> 
> I won't hold my breath. I'm not an idiot.


Not that I'm trying to detract from what you have done, but if I recall correctly, you admitted your infidelity immediately rather than your wife having to figure it out from red flags. So it isn't really a very similar situation.


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

technovelist said:


> Not that I'm trying to detract from what you have done, but if I recall correctly, you admitted your infidelity immediately rather than your wife having to figure it out from red flags. So it isn't really a very similar situation.


Perhaps I misunderstood. My apologies.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

I think the standard TAM advice is for the OP to investigate for infidelity if red flags are present. Hopefully there isn't
any cheating going on but it needs to be ruled out 100% before any advice can be given. 

I have seen threads that appeared as false alarms, OP investigates but finds nothing, but 3 months later OP catches
the cheater. I guess that would be a false false alarm.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

This has turned into the Rookie thread. No, to me, a false alarm is what Fozzy stated. Not catching the person or finding immediate proof isn't really a false alarm. Still, people tend to forget the 100 page derails (exaggeration) where people scream and berate posters for claiming affair, then the OP comes back devastated. I've seen some wayward spouses treated horribly and I've seen some betrayed treated horribly. 

What it boils down to is people see what they want.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Rowan said:


> If there are a lot of red flags, there's usually a reason for that.
> 
> I think what many people object to, though, is the seeming rush by some posters to shout "she's obviously cheating" when there really aren't all that many red flags. Or worse, when the "red flags" seem to be mostly in the poster's imagination or in the imaginations of those telling him she must be cheating.
> 
> Know a great way to completely tank a marriage? Foster a sense of paranoia and righteous indignation in one of the partners, while simultaneously ignoring any and all legitimate issues the couple might be having.


Quite. In my relationship, I really did not think there was anyone else and indeed there were not major red flags. However, people still jumped to that.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

ButtPunch said:


> I think the standard TAM advice is for the OP to investigate for infidelity if red flags are present. Hopefully there isn't
> any cheating going on but it needs to be ruled out 100% before any advice can be given.
> .


But here's the problem with that: 

1. a lot of posters don't give cheating as an "option to rules out first". It's just a statement 'She's 100% cheating on you man, dump her ass" 

2. Paranoia CAN ruin a marriage. So now instead of working on things they are paranoid, spying, demanding. All love busters that can kill an already damaged marriage.

3. It takes out any responsibility from the person posting. The focus is all on he and her behavior and how "shady" it is and nothing about WHY she may be feeling withdrawn or closed off other than "she must be cheating". There are legitimate reasons for a woman to ILYBINILWY but instead of exploring what may have happened to reach that point it's all on her and now the OP is a blameless victim. 
From personal experience- asking me if I am cheating when I am trying to explain a valid feeling I am having is like saying "it's not my fault, you must be doing something wrong"

4- During this "investigation" time he is most often told to stop doing anything to meet her needs, stop being "nice", go out and do your own thing, 180 her, etc. So now a marriage that was suffering due to unmet needs, not enough time together, lack of connection has now gotten even worse. 

5. It perpetuates false and rude ideas about women. Like they "monkey vine" from one guy to the next, they are always looking for something better, they used you until your kids were grown and now they want an alpha guy, etc. 
So even if she's not cheating he gets bombarded with the mob of angry men telling him how horrible women are and it can change his perception of his wife into something that isn't productive for a healthy marriage.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But here's the problem with that:
> 
> 1. a lot of posters don't give cheating as an "option to rules out first". It's just a statement 'She's 100% cheating on you man, dump her ass"
> 
> ...


I hear what you are saying but infidelity has to be 100% eliminated to give any advice. I never advise the 180 until infidelity is discovered. I never advise to stop meeting needs until infidelity is discovered. The older TAM vets do not either. 

The newer posters who say the spouse is cheating just by seeing red flags are jumping the gun prematurely.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Here is an example. A poster asks about some "red flags" and gets a response like this (bold are the responses to his red flags) He is then told that she is 99% cheating on him. 
This was months ago and the poster is STILL looking for proof of cheating so instead of actively fixing his marriage he is killing any chance of it ever surviving, pushing her away more and love busting her like crazy. 

Quote:

6) She wouldn't perform certain things in the bedroom, and then one night she did and I asked her why. She flipped out about it.
*Practicing on you so she performs well for her OM.*

Quote:

9) Her find my iphone has been off on a few occurrences when I have wondered where she is
*Having sex with the OM.*

Quote:

10) She washes the underwear separately now, and she never used to do that.
*Because she doesn't want you to see the semen stains.*

Quote:

15) I asked her a personal question one day. I asked her if I was doing everything to satisfy her as a husband in terms of her needs, instead of reassuring me or discussing this, her first response was "what made you ask that"?
*She's afraid you might be onto her.*

Quote:

16) Have noticed thumb sized bruises on her body, and she refuses to have the cover off sometimes.*
Affair sex is lustful and rough more often than not. OM was banging your wife and marking your wife as an ego boost and to mock you.*

Quote:

18) She's secretive about being naked in front of me and getting changed which after being together for 10 years is a bit worrying.
*See above. She keeps the marks as a trophy as well and a reminder of her OM taking her body at will.*

Quote:

17) Goes up to the bathroom every single night without fail after work.
*Obviously, to wash the sweat and semen from her body.*


ETA- later in that same thread he inspects her panties and notices a white mark - which is 100% normal for a woman to have discharge BTW and yes, it can be white. Geez....- and is told that it is the OM semen and stop having sex with her. 

Seriously? If I ever found out that my husband examined my underwear it would be over. Right then. I couldn't be with a man like that. Ya and withhold sex. That always helps fix a failing marriage. 

How is any of that productive and healthy for a marriage?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

MountainRunner said:


> Perhaps I misunderstood. My apologies.


Accepted, of course.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But here's the problem with that:
> 
> 1. a lot of posters don't give cheating as an "option to rules out first". It's just a statement 'She's 100% cheating on you man, dump her ass"


I don't know about others, but I never say it's 100% unless there is a confession or a smoking gun of some kind.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> 2. Paranoia CAN ruin a marriage. So now instead of working on things they are paranoid, spying, demanding. All love busters that can kill an already damaged marriage.
> 
> 3. It takes out any responsibility from the person posting. The focus is all on he and her behavior and how "shady" it is and nothing about WHY she may be feeling withdrawn or closed off other than "she must be cheating". There are legitimate reasons for a woman to ILYBINILWY but instead of exploring what may have happened to reach that point it's all on her and now the OP is a blameless victim.
> From personal experience- asking me if I am cheating when I am trying to explain a valid feeling I am having is like saying "it's not my fault, you must be doing something wrong"


What are the legitimate reasons for ILYBINILWY that don't mean that the marriage is in very bad trouble? Even if it's not cheating, which it often is, the OP has got to find out what is going on pronto or his marriage is over.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> 4- During this "investigation" time he is most often told to stop doing anything to meet her needs, stop being "nice", go out and do your own thing, 180 her, etc. So now a marriage that was suffering due to unmet needs, not enough time together, lack of connection has now gotten even worse.


Most men who come here are not here because they are too aloof, but because they are too nice. Of course, there are exceptions, which is why the same advice is not given (and should not be given) in all cases.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> 5. It perpetuates false and rude ideas about women. Like they "monkey vine" from one guy to the next, they are always looking for something better, they used you until your kids were grown and now they want an alpha guy, etc.
> So even if she's not cheating he gets bombarded with the mob of angry men telling him how horrible women are and it can change his perception of his wife into something that isn't productive for a healthy marriage.


This is a thread about whether the red flags for a cheating wife are reliable. As I said in the OP, there could (and probably should) be another thread about whether red flags for a cheating husband are reliable. But men and women aren't the same, so the red flags aren't the same.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

technovelist said:


> I don't know about others, but I never say it's 100% unless there is a confession or a smoking gun of some kind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ILYBINILWY DOES mean the marriage is in trouble. It does not always mean cheating so becoming paranoid and damaging things further can be more harm than good if the reasons are not cheating. 
Find out WHY ILYBINILWY, don't just assume it's cheating.

I don't believe most men who comes here are "too nice" and not aloof or otherwise lacking in meeting emotional needs.
They may have the very best of intentions and be lovely men in general but just not meeting their spouse's specific emotional needs.

They may be putting all their eggs into the wrong basket (ex: I work 80 hours a week and pay for everything - when her need is quality time together)

They may have missed warning signs that things were going downhill until the serious ILYBINILWY talk and/or sex stops.

They may have stopped dating and wooing their wives because once you're married you shouldn't have to do that anymore. 

And finally, as you can see from my second post- ANYTHING can be a red flag. Woman has discharge- cheating. Women has to pee after work- cheating. 
I don't have a problem telling the guy who's wife passworded her phone and takes it with her to the bathroom (although I do... I play games in there....:|) to check for cheating and a lot of posters do give productive advice about it but you can't deny that there are fanatics around here who will pretty much tell anyone with a penis that his wife is cheating on him and he should dump her ass no matter what the whole story is.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

9 times out of 10

ilybnilwy means cheating


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Didn't Shamwow bust his WW with the white crusty panties?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I recall several false alarms, but it would be a lot of work to go back and find them. 

The one that struck me the most was a guy who was talked into all kinds of surveillance. He was ready to walk out and file for divorce because that's what he was cheered on to do. This went on for weeks. He went silent for a bit. when he came back he said that he realized at some point that TAM was making him paranoid. He finally realized that his wife was NOT cheating. And he left TAM.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ButtPunch said:


> 9 times out of 10
> 
> ilybnilwy means cheating


No it does not. 

A lot of cheaters say that.

But a lot of people who are not cheating also say it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ButtPunch said:


> Didn't Shamwow bust his WW with the white crusty panties?


The problem with this is that most women have discharge that can dry to white crusty.

So saying that it's a sign of cheating means that every man should always check every pair of their wives undies.

By the way, men get white crusty stuff on their underpants too. I guess all women need to check their husband's underwear to see if that stuff I also vaginal discharge.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> And finally, as you can see from my second post- ANYTHING can be a red flag. Woman has discharge- cheating. Women has to pee after work- cheating.
> I don't have a problem telling the guy who's wife passworded her phone and takes it with her to the bathroom (although I do... I play games in there....:|) to check for cheating and a lot of posters do give productive advice about it but you can't deny that there are fanatics around here who will pretty much tell anyone with a penis that his wife is cheating on him and he should dump her ass no matter what the whole story is.


I haven't seen that, but just to be on the safe side, I disavow any blanket advice, on either side, that doesn't take into account the actual information that the OP presents.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

technovelist said:


> I haven't seen that, but just to be on the safe side, I disavow any blanket advice, on either side, that doesn't take into account the actual information that the OP presents.


I understand this but as you can see, people will take an OPs paranoia and fuel it with their own creating an even bigger problem. So it _is _information they present but every single little detail can be translated into cheating. 
The OP gets more paranoid, looking for even more "red flags" and instead of looking at what the actual problems are and trying to fix his marriage he is spending his life examining her behavior (and panties) to look for signs she's cheating. 


The example I posted wasn't my interpretation of a thread. I literally copy and pasted it and only removed the names. 
I'm sure if I looked I could find numerous threads that are the same. 

Since that particular OP hasn't found proof, despite STILL looking months later, when do you decide to call it a false alarm?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I understand this but as you can see, people will take an OPs paranoia and fuel it with their own creating an even bigger problem. So it _is _information they present but every single little detail can be translated into cheating.
> The OP gets more paranoid, looking for even more "red flags" and instead of looking at what the actual problems are and trying to fix his marriage he is spending his life examining her behavior (and panties) to look for signs she's cheating.
> 
> The example I posted wasn't my interpretation of a thread. I literally copy and pasted it and only removed the names.
> ...


Yes, I agree that is an example of the advice being over the top. While there is definitely some kind of fairly serious problem in their relationship, I would not consider those to be red flags for cheating, and would definitely not tell the OP that his wife was certainly cheating on him.

The one I do consider slightly suspicious is the change in laundry habits, but that would at most be a pink flag.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> The problem with this is that most women have discharge that can dry to white crusty.
> 
> So saying that it's a sign of cheating means that every man should always check every pair of their wives undies.
> 
> By the way, men get white crusty stuff on their underpants too. I guess all women need to check their husband's underwear to see if that stuff I also vaginal discharge.


Shamwow tested the panties and boom positive for semen. I don't think crusty panties is a red flag. Shamwow had lots of other larger red flags.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Florida_rosbif (Oct 18, 2015)

Amplexor said:


> Betrayeds getting lambasted and leaving after a short period happens more often than the average users ever sees. They generally delete their posts and in the explanation section of the delete list things like "**** this place" "I don't need this crap" and so on.
> 
> If they have been treated unfairly, I will generally issue a temp ban on the offender and send an email to the BS and ask them to return. They rarely do.
> 
> ...


Very true in my opinion, I got my fair share of "divorce her now" posts, and who knows, it might well end in divorce. 

However, when you read posters' responses you do so as an adult, and you reject the clearly polarised, extreme responses, you read between the lines and try to take away the immediately useful. Yes it can be difficult, you're still in love with the WS despite all the **** going down, and people that you don't even know are basically telling you what an underhand, lying ***** he/she is.

All this doesn't alter the fact that TAM is a good place to be for advice and support!


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## thebirdman (Apr 5, 2014)

I wouldn't know about the "batting average" but I find that there is a lot of cynicism in regards to whether there has been an affair and what to do in the case of a suspected or confirmed affair. A lot of people seem to take the "Your SO came home 5 minutes late? They're definitely cheating. Dump them now." attitude. I find that to be a little depressing.

I'm not a cynic. I like to give people credit on all sides until they demonstrate they're not deserving of it. Even if they do something to damage their credibility, people can change. Not that they will necessarily, but they can.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

*when do you decide to call it a false alarm?*

I am curious about this in general. If a guy checks and finds no evidence of an affair, how is it productive to continue to be paranoid and searching for months, sometimes years on end? At what point does the posters switch to "start looking at other things, it's not an affair"

People telling him that yep, that and this does sound like an affair.... just fuels the fire and keeps the poster in victim mode and his wife as the "bad guy" Instead of looking for actual resolution he is on a never-ending search to prove that any little thing is a sign. How long do you think you could live under that kind of microscope? There is also a line where it can shift into abusive and controlling behavior and I think it's a slippery slope. 

I do think there is a reason for this, even subconscious.

Her feelings aren't legitimate - because it's probably an affair

He is of course doing everything he can, it's not him, it's just her affair

Affairs hurt, I know this, but at the same time it's almost an "out". It wasn't me, it was her. She was the one in the wrong. She is the one who has to work if she wants to be together.

'My wife was a horrible person who had an affair' is a damn good reason to divorce, to be mad, for a marriage to have failed. There's a clear bad guy, a clear victim. Tons of sympathy and no one deserves it no matter what they have done so it's a free pass on any mistake they may have made. Doesn't matter. She cheated. He gets to join the group of victim men and they get to add another one to their ranks (see, it happens to everyone! Women really are terrible) And based on many threads here, he gets to use her cheating as a trump card for years to come if he wants. 

'I stopped meeting my wife's needs and she eventually became distant and stopped loving me and wanted out of the marriage'- well that's a bit more grey, isn't it? That's more work, that's more blame, that's more accountability.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> *when do you decide to call it a false alarm?*
> 
> I am curious about this in general. If a guy checks and finds no evidence of an affair, how is it productive to continue to be paranoid and searching for months, sometimes years on end? At what point does the posters switch to "start looking at other things, it's not an affair"


It varies in all situations. If you find yourself continually monitoring long after it appears the A is over, then trust has not returned to the marriage in sufficient levels to support the relationship. Personally, I couldn't remain in a relationship LT, if I could trust my wife. It would be an unhealthy sub-current that could permeate the entire relationship. At some point I had to return to full trust in her. I've often said that trust will never be the same and even after these many years, it is not. I don't worry about her every move, evenings out with a GF, lunch with a male coworker or if she works late. The trust is different because before the EA, I never thought an affair was possible. Once you find that it can, trust is altered a bit. At this point I trust my reads on her emotionally, not snooping in her emails or phone records.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Amplexor said:


> It varies in all situations. If you find yourself continually monitoring long after it appears the A is over, then trust has not returned to the marriage in sufficient levels to support the relationship. Personally, I couldn't remain in a relationship LT, if I could trust my wife. It would be an unhealthy sub-current that could permeate the entire relationship. At some point I had to return to full trust in her. I've often said that trust will never be the same and even after these many years, it is not. I don't worry about her every move, evenings out with a GF, lunch with a male coworker or if she works late. The trust is different because before the EA, I never thought an affair was possible. Once you find that it can, trust is altered a bit. At this point I trust my reads on her emotionally, not snooping in her emails or phone records.


I was more questioning about when there is no evidence of an affair but monitoring and digging still continues for sometimes years. 
But I've made a new thread to not hijack this one by my ranting/thoughts :smile2:


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Affairs hurt, I know this, but at the same time it's almost an "out". It wasn't me, it was her. She was the one in the wrong. She is the one who has to work if she wants to be together.
> 
> 'My wife was a horrible person who had an affair' is a damn good reason to divorce, to be mad, for a marriage to have failed. There's a clear bad guy, a clear victim. Tons of sympathy and no one deserves it no matter what they have done so it's a free pass on any mistake they may have made. Doesn't matter. She cheated. He gets to join the group of victim men and they get to add another one to their ranks (see, it happens to everyone! Women really are terrible) And based on many threads here, he gets to use her cheating as a trump card for years to come if he wants.
> 
> 'I stopped meeting my wife's needs and she eventually became distant and stopped loving me and wanted out of the marriage'- well that's a bit more grey, isn't it? That's more work, that's more blame, that's more accountability.


If the wife *told* the husband that she wanted out, I don't think anyone would consider her a cheater. 

Unfortunately, in the cases we see here, the more common case is that wife decides internally that the marriage is over so it's okay if she has sex with someone else, without bothering to tell her husband of this decision.

Of course the same is true if the husband wants out but doesn't bother to tell his wife.


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