# Is this a problem, or am I just too needy?



## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

I have been married for 20 years to a woman I am deeply in love with. We have a great life and 2 great kids. We have a very active sex life, sometimes 4 times per week. But there is one thing missing. She isn't affectionate, and I ALWAYS initiate the sex. When we were first married she would sing this little song, "tonight's the night....for love" it was so cute, since she has no singing voice at all. But it told me she was in the mood for love. She was very cuddly and kissy. Now we almost never kiss, except for when we leave for work. There just isn't any romance from her side. I have been trying different things, such as I do the laundry, I go grocery shopping with her, help the kids with homework etc. She just doesn't show it the way she used to. Maybe that's how it's supposed to be after 20 years? Like I said we have sex all the time, and she is into it when we do, but it's ALWAYS my idea. I would like her to come to ME once and ask me to make love to her or something like that. Heck I would be happy just to hold her hand, I am really just looking for the little things. So am I stupid and should I just be happy with what I have? Am I reading something from nothing? I would appreciate any feedback. Thanks!:smthumbup:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jims1020 said:


> I have been married for 20 years to a woman I am deeply in love with. We have a great life and 2 great kids. We have a very active sex life, sometimes 4 times per week. But there is one thing missing. *She isn't affectionate, and I ALWAYS initiate the sex*.
> 
> When we were first married she would sing this little song, "tonight's the night....for love" it was so cute, since she has no singing voice at all. But it told me she was in the mood for love. She was very cuddly and kissy. *Now we almost never kiss, except for when we leave for work*. *There just isn't any romance from her side*.
> 
> I have been trying different things, such as *I do the laundry, I go grocery shopping with her, help the kids with homework* etc. She just doesn't show it the way she used to. Maybe that's how it's supposed to be after 20 years? Like I said we have sex all the time, and she is into it when we do, but it's ALWAYS my idea. I would like her to come to ME once and ask me to make love to her or something like that. Heck I would be happy just to hold her hand, I am really just looking for the little things. So am I stupid and should I just be happy with what I have? Am I reading something from nothing? I would appreciate any feedback. Thanks!:smthumbup:


No, it doesn't have to be this way after 20 yrs of marriage... some of the things you say sound similar to the way my husband used to think....when I was "too much into the kids"... his only complaint in our marriage was 2 things...he wanted more "affectionate holding" ...and more sex... but unlike yourself...if I didn't initiate, he would put himself down and Wait for me to come to him... he was very very sensitive like that...which I always did.... after so many days I was dying for it.. I was too stupid to realize he was feeling this way...and he was too passive to put it out there, open the conversation up... We just never talked about sex... biggest regrets of our marriage... 

I learned after the fact - he read some article online on how to get the wife more sexual... It talked about doing more of my dishes... clean the house..







I just laughed....I looked him in the face and said "HOney, you read the wrong darn article to deal with me [email protected]#$".... His talking to me, or being more flirtatiously aggressive...teasing / playing...showing some Erotic FUN.... would have been his answer... stirring the pot of excitement, a little creativity, novelty.. to arouse me... 

He was always a quiet sensual lover....honestly I was probably a little bored..BUt I was happy, just didn't have the brain on sex as much as he did.

He was the HIGHER drive... whomever is the higher Drive needs to go above & beyond to TURN their partners buttons... learn what DOES it for her... 

If she is an Acts Of Service woman... I don't know, maybe helping with all those things might allow her to relax a little...not feel so stressed -but upping the Lust.. I doubt it....for instance read the 3rd post on this link as an example - what I quoted of Caribbean man's post...( he mentions doing the dishes, laundry, etc). http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/69905-pickup-game-never-ever-works-ever-147.html

Chances are your wife's sex drive does NOT need 4 times a week (most women don't).... men have 10 times more Test over women.... therefore she never initiates sex.. I DID initiate because he could go a whole week without it (even though he wanted it badly- crazy husband of mine!)....

Have you EVER opened up this subject with your wife? Does she have any idea you are feeling this way...that you would just feel so good if she would just come to you on her own... be a little overt.... some Playfulness.... *I do not feel you are NEEDY*...you are just expressing how much this would mean to you... I feel you are a normal man who wants to feel desired / wanted by his wife.....all men want this [email protected]#$%^& 

You are a Romantic, and you don't want to feel it is one sided... So now you have to stir the pot...stir the attraction... Have an affair with your wife, open up the sex dialog.... 



*1.* Is there any Resentment - that might have hindered her *romance* towards you over the years?

*2. * How about *Physical attraction*... have you gained weight, or anything that might have stolen her Oomph for you ?

*3.* This is a great book that touches on this subject, spefically written for men wanting to UP the attraction to their wives....the steps needed...

The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay:

*4.* Do you feel you are too much of a NICE GUY..  Take the No More Mr. Nice Guy! Self-Assessment

*5.* Do you feel she is passive aggressive and just goes along to keep the peace...does it ever feel like "duty sex".... does she orgasm? 

*6.* Is she on any meds to Zap her drive? 

*7. *What about love Languages - do you know hers.. and try to fulfill them, does she understand yours? 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-languages-how-does-affect-your-marraige.html


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

Thanks for replying, I don't really have any women friends who I can talk to about this!

I get the feeling that she never really gets aroused. She is always busy doing something with the kids or work. She almost never says "no" to sex and is an active participant. But I would rather have her come up behind me and hug me around the neck and tell me that she loves me. I always wonder if she would miss sex if I didn't request it. It seems like she could live without it. I will answer your questions:

1. No, we have a great relationship. We have had probably 4 or 5 fights in 20 years. I am very in touch with how to keep her happy. Little things aren't worth fighting over.

2. I am in better shape than she is. I work out 4 days a week plus do yoga. She put on some weight after the 2nd kids was born and really hasn't done anything about it. But I don't care. For some reason, even though I am told I can get a "better" woman, I am very happy with her. She does have a KILLER rack too lol!

3. I will get that book, looks like exactly what I need.

4. I am very nice guy, and I make a lot of money. I don't drink, smoke, do drugs or run around. Sometimes I get the feeling that she doesn't understand how lucky she is lol!

5. If it's duty sex she hides it well. She always is into it, never just lays there. She orgasms when we use her toy. Good ole pocket rocket. But she gets so sweaty that she doesn't like to do it all the time. Maybe twice a month?

6. no meds, very healthy.

7. don't know about love languages?


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

I have that book, "His needs, her needs" we read together a few years ago.


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## sexy (Jul 29, 2012)

Hi OP,

Me and my h have been married 23 yrs in july. We also have 2 great kids/teen girls. Your situation sounds kind of like me and my h.I love my h like crazy. I love sex with him, I orgasm , I tell him how much I love being in bed with him, but, like your w, I NEVER PHYSICALLY INITIATE! I am in better shape than my h, about 10 or so pounds over where I want to be, but I am still pretty and fit. I am ALSO horribly shy and very soft-spoken around him. We do fight/argue somewhat regularly, as we are both fire signs:FIREdevil: but we usually move on and get over it. I don't know much about your w or u for that matter, but fwiw, I am very timid about initiating touch with my h. I am 5'5" with a medium frame but my h is 6' and all of his limbs and body parts DWARF mine. His hands, feet, arms, shoulders, legs, EVERYTHING seems huge compared to me and I am almost afraid to touch him first. What iff he breaks me?jk but I am usually intimidated by nothing, until my h lays down beside me, and I remember the vast differences in our sizes. One of his hands covers 1/2 of my back and most of my thigh. That kind of keeps me from initiating the first physical contact. I am not afraid of him trying to hurt me, but just realizing that he could hurt me is usually in the back of my mind. plus I am a very timid individual. Like you said about your w, I too, am NOT an overtly affectionate person. I don't go out of my way to hug, touch, kiss, or even talk to my h very often. We stay busy doing our own things most of the time, and sex is always his idea, though I have helped him get the idea, so to speak ( perfume I wear, shirts I wear, makeup, distance I sleep from him) just subtle hints I give him. However I would never be aggressive enough in the bedroom to just jump on him or strip down to nothing to start him up so to speak. I just don't have that killer instinct that says "I have to have you right now!" Sometimes I wish I could overcome the shy person I am, but bein' raised in the south, girls aren't brought up that way. Sometimes I'm too much of a  lady for my own good. I'm not sayin' that this can't change for you , but her upbringing may play a part of how she is in bed. One thing I can recommend to you is for you to tell her that you love the way her hands feel when she touches you (both in bed and when she just touches you during the day. Tell her that nothing feels as good to you as her touch. Tell her that her touch is your favorite part of the day. Tell her to touch you more. Tell her that you can't get enough of the feel of her soft hands on your body, and that nothing makes you feel better after work than feeling her hands around your neck, or back when she hugs you and kisses you. Believe me If I thought my h enjoyed my touch just during the day, I would touch him a lot more in and out of bed. HMMMMMMMM 

Well OP, that's my 2 cents. Hope I said something helpful to you.

Good Luck


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

sexy said:


> Hi OP,
> 
> Me and my h have been married 23 yrs in july. We also have 2 great kids/teen girls. Your situation sounds kind of like me and my h.I love my h like crazy. I love sex with him, I orgasm , I tell him how much I love being in bed with him, but, like your w, I NEVER PHYSICALLY INITIATE! I am in better shape than my h, about 10 or so pounds over where I want to be, but I am still pretty and fit. I am ALSO horribly shy and very soft-spoken around him. We do fight/argue somewhat regularly, as we are both fire signs:FIREdevil: but we usually move on and get over it. I don't know much about your w or u for that matter, but fwiw, I am very timid about initiating touch with my h. I am 5'5" with a medium frame but my h is 6' and all of his limbs and body parts DWARF mine. His hands, feet, arms, shoulders, legs, EVERYTHING seems huge compared to me and I am almost afraid to touch him first. What iff he breaks me?jk but I am usually intimidated by nothing, until my h lays down beside me, and I remember the vast differences in our sizes. One of his hands covers 1/2 of my back and most of my thigh. That kind of keeps me from initiating the first physical contact. I am not afraid of him trying to hurt me, but just realizing that he could hurt me is usually in the back of my mind. plus I am a very timid individual. Like you said about your w, I too, am NOT an overtly affectionate person. I don't go out of my way to hug, touch, kiss, or even talk to my h very often. We stay busy doing our own things most of the time, and sex is always his idea, though I have helped him get the idea, so to speak ( perfume I wear, shirts I wear, makeup, distance I sleep from him) just subtle hints I give him. However I would never be aggressive enough in the bedroom to just jump on him or strip down to nothing to start him up so to speak. I just don't have that killer instinct that says "I have to have you right now!" Sometimes I wish I could overcome the shy person I am, but bein' raised in the south, girls aren't brought up that way. Sometimes I'm too much of a  lady for my own good. I'm not sayin' that this can't change for you , but her upbringing may play a part of how she is in bed. One thing I can recommend to you is for you to tell her that you love the way her hands feel when she touches you (both in bed and when she just touches you during the day. Tell her that nothing feels as good to you as her touch. Tell her that her touch is your favorite part of the day. Tell her to touch you more. Tell her that you can't get enough of the feel of her soft hands on your body, and that nothing makes you feel better after work than feeling her hands around your neck, or back when she hugs you and kisses you. Believe me If I thought my h enjoyed my touch just during the day, I would touch him a lot more in and out of bed. HMMMMMMMM
> 
> ...


Thanks so much. That is exactly what she is like. She is just not a big display of affection person. Maybe it's best that I just be grateful that we have had 20 years of a great marriage, 2 wonderful kids and she is still my best friend. I am very lucky and I know it. All of my friends have already been divorced at least once!


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

Then.. maybe, when you're sitting down watching the telly, or maybe you are out driving somewhere together... DO.. just grab & hold her hand.
What's the worst, she pushes it away?

Do just go up to her & rub her shoulders out of the blue (no sex initiating).. Give her a hug, flowers, a sweet peck on the cheek. 
And then DON'T ask for sex that night. Don't initiate.
Only ititiate intimate little moments with her. Then drop them & see if she picks it up later.

Maybe she needs to be "wooed" again?


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

Chelle D said:


> Then.. maybe, when you're sitting down watching the telly, or maybe you are out driving somewhere together... DO.. just grab & hold her hand.
> What's the worst, she pushes it away?
> 
> Do just go up to her & rub her shoulders out of the blue (no sex initiating).. Give her a hug, flowers, a sweet peck on the cheek.
> ...


Oh she NEVER says no or pushes me away. She is very willing to participate, she just NEVER starts it. If I go in for a kiss, she will give me a long sexy kiss, but I always have to start it. I never know when she is aroused, or if she ever even gets aroused. She never talks about it. Maybe that's just how it's going to be. I shouldn't complain apparently. After reading a bunch of posts in here, my life is perfect next to these stories!


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

jims, I have the exact same problem. My W is the most wonderful woman in the world to me, and she won't turn me down, but she won't initiate.

I know, it feels like she is doing it because she feels that she HAS to, or is doing it just to shut you up. And soon, you start feeling that she doesn't really desire or admire you, and that can be very damaging to a man.


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

F-102 said:


> jims, I have the exact same problem. My W is the most wonderful woman in the world to me, and she won't turn me down, but she won't initiate.
> 
> I know, it feels like she is doing it because she feels that she HAS to, or is doing it just to shut you up. And soon, you start feeling that she doesn't really desire or admire you, and that can be very damaging to a man.


We have talked about and she says that she doesn't mean to do it, and for a while she will make an effort, but after a while she slips back. I guess I shouldn't make it into more than it is.


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## ilou (Oct 25, 2012)

Sorry for my lousy suggestions but how about a few days of teasing Jim? 

Maybe play that aloofness card but still be loving. 
Don't make it seem you're distancing yourself but that you're just "whatever" and "if 'it' comes, 'it' comes". 

Try not to let it appear that it's on your mind.

For example,

Rub her lower back or any kind of touching for at max, 2 seconds and ask her how she's doing or what she's doing or some words of flattery. 
Then go back to being occupied with something.
I think you being occupied with something she can clearly see is key. Otherwise she may see through the game plan and think you're playing hard to get.

Don't lower the affection but don't seem too intimate.

This may mean you won't be doing it for a while  But if it works, It'll definitely be worth it.

But hey! Sometimes it takes 4 rounds to set up the left hook for a knock out.

Keep us posted. Of course you can spare us the details...


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

ilou said:


> Sorry for my lousy suggestions but how about a few days of teasing Jim?
> 
> Maybe play that aloofness card but still be loving.
> Don't make it seem you're distancing yourself but that you're just "whatever" and "if 'it' comes, 'it' comes".
> ...


Hmmm... a little hard to get? I like it!


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

> Believe me If I thought my h enjoyed my touch just during the day, I would touch him a lot more in and out of bed. HMMMMMMMM


Sexy, touch and him and see I bet you will be surprised how much he would LOVE your touch. You say he dwarfs you so you probably have to look up to him when you're talking to him like I have to do; so just start with getting up close to him and laying your palm flat on his chest whenever you're just talking to him. Or just brush his arms two or three times while you're talking. 

Then just walking up to him maybe when he first gets home and just lay your head on his chest.

I'm betting he will LOVE it.

OP, keep on doing what you're doing. Would you rather have good sex that you have to initiate or no sex at all like some men? Just because she doesn't initiate doesn't mean she can take it or leave it. My H seems like he always want to be the initiator so it makes me kind of reluctant to initiate too. It is better now but it use to be even if I meet him at the door in a negligee to show that this is MY night he will take that negligee of in 10 or 20 seconds flat and he has taken over. (I don't really mind though). So have you ever given the idea that you always want to initiate? Then that may be why she might let you take the lead all the time.


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## xftcyrpz (Apr 6, 2013)

Do just go up to her & rub her shoulders out of the blue


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

ilou said:


> Sorry for my lousy suggestions but how about a few days of teasing Jim?
> 
> Maybe play that aloofness card but still be loving.
> Don't make it seem you're distancing yourself but that you're just "whatever" and "if 'it' comes, 'it' comes".
> ...


I guess your post came in before mine, but that would work too!


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## ilou (Oct 25, 2012)

jims1020 said:


> Hmmm... a little hard to get? I like it!


HAHA. Yes! Just realized after pressing 'submit' that I took all that time to explain something that needn't be put in detail. To much beating around the bush.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

If her natural born Temperament is on the passive introverted side....being a "Receptive Lover"... likley it will be something you will just have to *accept*.... 

On the other hand, if she is embarrassed, not in touch with her sexuality, possibly some sexual repression going on due to - upbringing/ inhibitions, too much religious thinking...things like that... there is hope for her ...to grow into a more seductive initiating woman. 

Have you & her sat down with any sex books, read them together, talked about your wants ... really opening this conversation up ?


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

OK, an update. I read the Married Men Sex Life Primer, thanks Simplyamorous! I am definitely heavy Beta, but I really don't know how to be more Alpha. I make very good money, work out pretty consistently, never order my wife around, I play the piano and sing, my daughter and I both bond through music so am not much for disciplining the kids. I am a NICE guy. I would think a great catch.

But she runs the house, always has. I don't know what to do to be the Alpha male. It's going to be very unnatural for me. I am too nice. 

Take last night for instance. My W was with the daughter all day at a dance competition. I knew she would be tired and she had to go back on Sunday. Sunday is usually our grocery shopping date. I go with her Sunday morning and we knock it out. I decided yesterday that since she was getting back pretty late, around midnight, that I would go and get the groceries myself, so she could sleep in. She was very happy about that. But when she got home, she went right to bed. She gave me a little pat on the arm and thanked me for all I did, I also cleaned the house, another Sunday ritual, and then she fell asleep. Now, after all I had done, I felt like some romance was clearly in the cards, that didn't happen, so I felt shut off. 

Would the Alpha male have said "I did this, now you are doing this"?


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

I don't know about any other women here but my man doing the dishes, laundry, cleaning or getting groceries doesn't make me in the mood, why would it? When you dated your wife did you pick up groceries to get her engine running?

Think of all the sweet things you did when dating her and bring some of that back. Also another poster said some women are reactive when it comes to romance and just don't have it in them to be initiators. I don't have any knowledge of that as I'm the opposite.

But if your wife is like that then it may be something you just have to accept and move on. You can still have an amazing sex life being the only initiator in the relationship. Get those romantic juices flowing and enjoy being with the woman you love even if she doesn't initiate


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## Ellie5 (Mar 12, 2013)

Perhaps she's just so used to you initiating and it doesn't register the way it does for you - I agree with MON, carry on as you are.

Slightly off topic but I remember dating H one evening I'd driven over and it was raining. He actually came out of the house with a great big brolly to the car so I didn't get wet from the drive to the house (barely a few feet anyway) - it was very sweet / romantic.........yet never happened once married. 

I guess my point is that sometimes we just get used to each other and each other's habits, what prove to be problems for us aren't always problems for our partners...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jims1020 said:


> OK, an update. I read the Married Men Sex Life Primer, thanks Simplyamorous! I am definitely heavy Beta, but I really don't know how to be more Alpha. I make very good money, work out pretty consistently, never order my wife around, I play the piano and sing, my daughter and I both bond through music so am not much for disciplining the kids. I am a NICE guy. I would think a great catch.
> 
> But she runs the house, always has. I don't know what to do to be the Alpha male. It's going to be very unnatural for me. I am too nice.
> 
> ...


YOU ARE SO MY HUSBAND or the way he used to be... go back and read my 1st post, you need to UP the excitement to get her wheels turning sexually... Upping a little ALPHA ....you need some of that....Continuing to do boring mundane favors around the house does NOT cause physical attraction to a women, not a wink.... I know it doesn't do anything for me !! 

Give me some teasing / flirting, a little dirty talk....him wrestling me to the ground, show me some LUST, his want of me! We have come quite the ways in these things. 

I noticed you said... you never fight... when I hear others say this...I automatically think to myself... how can these 2 possibly be communicating honestly & soul-fully/ vulnerably... no 2 people will always agree... 4 fights in 20 yrs (if I recall correctly)... *are you both passive**? *

Just as you hid your feelings last night from her (but posted here)... how often is she hiding hers from you!??? Sometimes rocking the boat, opening that up - can surely lead to some beautiful things....Make up sex is grand...it stirs the passions.... don't be afraid of a little conflict.. .this is what SCREWED me & my husband in the past.... his passive behavior...when he wanted more.... and me not "getting it"...he stuffed his feelings not wanting to bother me.. I could ring his neck for this...looking back. We allowed a little APATHY to settle in.... 

Speaking of APATHY....I left this post below on another thread







...this man's wife up & left after 18 yrs... they NEVER fought...that is why he felt everything was OK.... but they also were not communicating... while they were both building a silent resentment wall --hers much more severe ....meanwhile everyone thought they had the "perfect marriage"...

Now Granted Jims1020....your situation is nothing like this man's ....as he was lucky to get Sex twice a month compared to your 4 times a week [email protected]#$.. But still a smidget of APATHY ..you'd want to overturn this / weed it out -if it is lurking... Just a thought, it may not apply at all... My next post will be about NICE GUYS....



> *SimplyAmorous said*:
> How important, when the laughter stops in the home, the smiles, the
> 
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Taken from  No More Mr. Nice Guy! Robert A. Glover: Books

Here is a list of *NICE GUY Characteristics* - Most guys have a few of these, but the headed for doormat status "NICE guys"- posses these in abundance . The book has more detail to each little item of coarse.



> Nice Guys are Givers
> 
> Nice Guys fix & Caretake
> 
> ...


There is problems with each one of those -the motivation behind the doing is the issue. What is happening is -- These men have been conditioned to believe that if they are "NICE" they will be loved, get their needs met and have a smooth life. 

Here is the "not-so nice" traits of Nice Guys ...



> Nice guys can be Dishonest, secretive, compartmentalized, manipulative, controlling, they give to get, passive aggressive, some are full of rage, additive, have difficulty setting boundaries, frequently isolated, often attracted to people & situations that need fixing, frequently have problems in intimate relationships, have issues with sexuality, usually only relatively successful .


Of course those are not true for every Nice guy, my husband fit 4 of those plus a few we considered halfs in his case. I'm the one who bought the book -as I am more ..."the reader" between us...then we explored together - over our past, where we /he missed it.


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Taken from  No More Mr. Nice Guy! Robert A. Glover: Books
> 
> Here is a list of *NICE GUY Characteristics* - Most guys have a few of these, but the headed for doormat status "NICE guys"- posses these in abundance . The book has more detail to each little item of coarse.
> 
> ...


That's my problem right there. I am way too nice. I tell her every day how beautiful she is, and go out of my way to make things as perfect for her as possible. I like being nice. People like me because I am nice.

I don't know how to NOT be nice.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jims1020 said:


> That's my problem right there. I am way too nice. I tell her every day how beautiful she is, and go out of my way to make things as perfect for her as possible. I like being nice. People like me because I am nice.
> 
> I don't know how to NOT be nice.


Ok, nothing wrong with being NICE... if it is genuine...that is who you are.... Me personally, I prefer the GentleMan type...so long as he can also be a little crude & unorthodox now & then....Do you have any BAD BOY in you at all ?? For instance I can't imagine a women being "turned on" by a Mr Rogers type...









What is your "EDGE" ~ if you could explain it... Saying you make a good living and keeping her happy is not an answer... What you say to her, DO to her... how you INTERACT with her...that causes something in her to RISE & she is left feeling....."Damn I love this man & want to eat him up" -- that is an "EDGE".... as annoying as it may be... "Bad boys" with their ALPHA allure... seems to ooze this...not overly NICE men. 

Sorry for all these LINKS...I did a thread on this a while back..... My husband BEING a natural born Introverted Romantic Pleaser... I had to push my brain on this one.... Women answered too...maybe you can identify with some answers -- or get some ideas..what UPs the attraction for us women... 











> The *Alpha Traits* are those associated with classic “manly man” strengths. Power, dominance, physical ability, bravery, wealth, cool and confidence. Oh and good genes. These are the things that attract women and turn them on sexually. The Alpha Traits are linked to the dopamine response in women.
> 
> *Alpha *= attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement





> The *Beta Traits* are those associated with the strengths of being a nice guy / “family man”. Kindness, being a good listener, the ability to help with the children, dependability, thoughtfulness, compassion and patience. These all create a sense of comfort and safety for the woman, and relax her because she feels that if she became pregnant, the Beta Trait male isn’t going to abandon her and the baby.
> 
> *Beta *= comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment"


Bottom line....Alpha Traits create attraction and that “in love” feeling, and Beta Traits create the pair bond and makes her feel relaxed enough to have sex. You need a balance of both Alpha and Beta in a marriage to maximize her desire to have sex with you.


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Ok, nothing wrong with being NICE... if it is genuine...that is who you are.... Me personally, I prefer the GentleMan type...so long as he can also be a little crude & unorthodox now & then....Do you have any BAD BOY in you at all ?? For instance I can't imagine a women being "turned on" by a Mr Rogers type...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK, let's see. When I met her I was a musician. I actually had a one nighter the night before I met her. My wife was a blind date and we went to a midnight movie. I actually fell asleep during the movie! She was embarrassed lol! She still slept with me the first night. The next day something clicked in my head, we actually TALKED about marriage. I never looked at another girl again. We were married in a year. She was very open sexually, we even tried a 3 some once. She tried anal, didn't like it. But she was willing to try things.

I am a pretty potent lover. I love giving more than receiving and after 20 years I have zero need for Viagra. I would just as happily go down on her for 20 minutes lol. I love her body and an just fascinated with every inch of her. Nobody ever made her come before. 

I don't drink, smoke, drugs anything like that. I am in good shape, not great. I have high blood pressure so I have to take it easy. I don't play in a band anymore, still play the guitar and piano at home. 

So sexually I am a "bad boy" but in life I am the nice guy. The kind where I give the "will work for food" sign people money, because I feel bad for them. I am very unselfish and even naive. I trust everybody and try to make everybody happy.

We have 2 teenagers, a 14 year old girl (OMG!) and a perfect 17 year old son. They do take up a lot of time, dance classes, voice lessons, homework etc. so I can't really just throw her down and take her, the kids would need therapy! we just went on a 7 day cruise and she started her period on day 2, so that killed any romance, that and the kids in the room!

I like this Alpha male thing, I just have to figure out what it means. I always thought being a partnership meant sharing the chores, finances, kid stuff etc. I really don't know about being in charge. I am a big kid at heart, I even play Xbox!

Isn't that sad?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Re-read the Alpha list again and work on that. All those Beta traits are not what she wants.


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

Openminded said:


> Re-read the Alpha list again and work on that. All those Beta traits are not what she wants.



That's the problem, I don't know how to do these things. How do I show her power? Go beat up somebody? I would get arrested. How do I show her bravery? Go stop a mugging? Good way to get shot. I got the wealth thing working ok, but that's about it.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

jims1020 said:


> That's the problem, I don't know how to do these things. How do I show her power? Go beat up somebody? I would get arrested. How do I show her bravery? Go stop a mugging? Good way to get shot. I got the wealth thing working ok, but that's about it.


Stop trying to show her anything.

Start doing and being for yourself, if she wants to come along for the ride take her along.

Care less what she wants, needs, desires and more about what you want, need, desire.

It's that simple.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Well it sounds like you had her panties in a tickle in the beginning, ha ha ....sleeping together the 1st night.even though you are a nice guy....You was a bad boy that night ! Then talking about marriage the next day......WOW [email protected]#$% And It still all worked out, adoring this love story.. .very sweet. 

Just having a guitar around your neck is an automatic turn on to many women... 



> *jims1020 said* : So sexually I am a "bad boy" but in life I am the nice guy.


 This is what the majority of men want too, in reverse, the Lady in the streets, but the Freak in the sheets... 



> They do take up a lot of time, dance classes, voice lessons, homework etc. so I can't really just throw her down and take her, the kids would need therapy! we just went on a 7 day cruise and she started her period on day 2, so that killed any romance, that and the kids in the room!


 Your kids will surely not need therapy if Mom & Dad shows a little playfulness around them... you can have and ooze plenty of ROMANCE without the sex... building that sweet tension...I don't mean throwing her down on the bed with the bedroom door open.... but seeing a little flirting... teasing... hugging, a kiss here & there.... they are teens..you think they aren't thinking about it themselves ?? 

They need to see that Marital love is FUN, filled with some excitement, seeing this between there parents is a good thing... not something to hide.... all they see in society is ... everyone NOT married having a blast & all the hot sex....can you think of a worse message. 

We have 6 kids ranging from 6 - 22... we have a bedroom door, nothing stops us... we flirt right in front of them.... A little toned down ...but it's there, the way we look at each other, if we watch a movie with them, we are cuddled up... they are so used to us...it's nothing... I would even say this gives them comfort /hope for their own marriages someday..... to see parents so into each other.


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Well it sounds like you had her panties in a tickle in the beginning, ha ha ....sleeping together the 1st night.even though you are a nice guy....You was a bad boy that night ! Then talking about marriage the next day......WOW [email protected]#$% And It still all worked out, adoring this love story.. .very sweet.
> 
> Just having a guitar around your neck is an automatic turn on to many women...
> 
> ...


So, how do I stop being so nice, but not be MEAN? I can't be mean, just isn't in me.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

tacoma said:


> Stop trying to show her anything.
> 
> Start doing and being for yourself, if she wants to come along for the ride take her along.
> 
> ...


IN the spirit of THIS post by Tacoma... I will offer you this thread..







. 

Ya know on forums you will get a barrage of advice, some might help, some you need to just throw out, always hit of miss... this is what works for many... if you are too hot, feeling NEEDY, and you want her to come your way some... maybe turning down the Thermostat would Be your answer... worth a try....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> IN the spirit of THIS post by Tacoma... I will offer you this thread..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This website is great! I have been struggling with this for 15 years, and in 24 hours I have knowledge of what I was doing wrong, and the plan to fix it.

FYI, I already talked to my wife today and she was very receptive. I told her I was taking over and going to be more assertive and she said "thank God, finally". She felt like she had to make every decision since I unwittingly was allowing her to. But it caused her a lot of pressure. Today I TOLD her what we were having for dinner, when usually she asks me and I always said "I don't care, what do you want"?

Had no idea that was not what she wanted to hear.


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

update, she just left for dance competition day 2, and gave a very passionate kiss (which NEVER happens) and said "thank you for everything".

Wow!


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

I know, it might be a hard thing to bring up... But, Seriously... sit down and have a TALK with her. Maybe after sex one night. Be calm open and honest.
Tell her that it bothers you that she never initiates. That it makes you feel as if she having sex as a "wifely duty" instead of something she WANTs. Start really talking about what goes on in her body when you both are having sex. Ask her what it feels like, ask her what position is most comfortable.. &/or most fun & ask why.

Tell her what feels best for you.. tell her that it would make you feel so desired if she came up & gust cradled your ballsack in her hand & said 'MMmmmm, that feels so right in my hand." Of "Mmmmm I want some of that, can't wait until bedtime tonight!"

I really think a series of open honest discussions will help.
It doesn't have to be with a counselor. Just the two of you. (I guess if talk between the two of you is getting nowhere, then maybe counseling is in order).

I just know that conversations that my hubby & me had 15months ago made such a difference in our lives. Even though it's not frequent, our sex life is so much better now because of our talks.
Now, we have discussions about personal issues much more often than once every 22 years!!!!!!!!! It helps.


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

Oooh, another bad thing I have been doing is with disciplining my daughter. She and I are very close, we have a special bond since we are both talented musicians. She got that from me, my wife and son don't have a musical bone in their bodies.

So anyhow, my daughter has become quite lippy and starting to act older than she is. But I was on her side several times and actually went against the wife. I just wanted peace and quiet, but I didn't realize I was undermining her authority. And that is NOT good.

On the cruise we were just on our daughter disappeared till 4am the last night, and she was finally found. She was with a boy! My wife completely freaked out and rightfully so. I was more disappointed than angry, but we had no choice other than to ground her for a whole month. Now, I never had laid out this kind of punishment before and I felt bad! When my wife came to me, I put the whole decision on her. I couldn't do it. We talked about that today. She said that I need to be on her side. And suddenly my eyes opened wide. I had been AGAINST her instead of helping her. No wonder she felt so alone, so I assured her that I am on her side and I will be the discipline guy now.

Man, this is HARD! LOL!


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

It's gonna be hard to change, but it's the doing rather than the talking that's going to convince your wife you're "on her side".

Don't talk to the daughter now. Next time she's flippy with your wife, THEN get up in her face & tell her that is NOT how you are going to raise your daughter, to disrespect mom. Be stern & make her apologize & send her to her room for an hour. DON'T go & talk to your daughter & be all buddy buddy & apologetic about the discipline afterwards. If she apologizes to your/your wife, then you can hug her & tell her shes forgiven... but NO, do not apologize for any discipline. 1) It undermines that you really mean it & that you really were on your wifes side. 2) that would be SO beta...


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

Chelle D said:


> It's gonna be hard to change, but it's the doing rather than the talking that's going to convince your wife you're "on her side".
> 
> Don't talk to the daughter now. Next time she's flippy with your wife, THEN get up in her face & tell her that is NOT how you are going to raise your daughter, to disrespect mom. Be stern & make her apologize & send her to her room for an hour. DON'T go & talk to your daughter & be all buddy buddy & apologetic about the discipline afterwards. If she apologizes to your/your wife, then you can hug her & tell her shes forgiven... but NO, do not apologize for any discipline. 1) It undermines that you really mean it & that you really were on your wifes side. 2) that would be SO beta...


I have done that for YEARS! I am Beta King!


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

. You don't want her growing up & being some man's doormat.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jims1020 said:


> So, how do I stop being so nice, but not be MEAN? I can't be mean, just isn't in me.


The "N*o More Mr Nice Guy Book"* will help you identify where you are going wrong in motivations and explain the Why's behind that -very nicely. 

If you are being NICE to EARN Her favor, her attraction...it's not a healthy dynamic...it can even be a form of deception. 

Do you never feel angry INSIDE, HURT, SEETH? Are you honestly assertive with your feelings even if they may squash her in a moment? I won't believe you if you say you never get Hurt or angry over anything.. but 4 times in 20 yrs...

If you feel them... you need to articulately express them - to her. This is healthy communication... You don't have to be *mean *to do this.. but you do have to be REAL...it's honesty, after all. 

Some women will not be moved by a man's talking/ expressing his needs- what a shame I say ....(endless TAM stories proving this).... but only by his actions -removing some of his attention/ affection /his helpfulness (*the Thermostat thread*)...and THIS catches her attention..she is left thinking







...then comes questioning you.. 

You just need to figure out what will MOVE your wife, what will put an UPrise in her....for this change you seek.

Ok just read your last post here...


> *jims1020 said*: This website is great! I have been struggling with this for 15 years, and in 24 hours I have knowledge of what I was doing wrong, and the plan to fix it.


 WONDERFUL [email protected]#$



> FYI, I already talked to my wife today and she was very receptive. *I told her I was taking over and going to be more assertive and she said "thank God, finally".* She felt like she had to make every decision since I unwittingly was allowing her to. But it caused her a lot of pressure. Today I TOLD her what we were having for dinner, when usually she asks me and I always said "*I don't care, what do you want"?*
> 
> Had no idea that was not what she wanted to hear.


See, she was feeling this for YEARS and never said anything to you...

You are both passive pleasers... who try to avoid hurting each other , you don't like conflict... both of you need to learn how to OPEN UP, talk, be honest, be real... with what you want... 

Here is an idea for you both...Start a SPICING Jar.....







...

This post was on one of my threads ....explaining this ... >>



> Originally Posted by *Inside_Looking_Out* :The one thing that has helped my husband create the illusion of 'taking more initiative and control' are our 'Desire Jars' that we made over a year ago.
> 
> We needed a better way of getting what we needed from the other person. So, I contrived a way to get what we wanted, without having to nag about wanting it all the time.
> 
> ...





> *jims1020 said*: So anyhow, my daughter has become quite lippy and starting to act older than she is. But I was on her side several times and actually went against the wife. I just wanted peace and quiet, but I didn't realize I was undermining her authority. And that is NOT good.


 Very very important to be on the same page in parenting, HUGE [email protected]#$ 

Kids will take full advantage of that if they sense the parents aren't as "IRON" on these things.. and it can slowly rip a family apart. This is another area.. . you need more communication... to avoid this in the future... Seems your daughter has really disappointed you both... See, she HAS boys on her mind alright ... talking openly about sex is also vital at her age.


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

You guys here are so great! You have helped me more in one weekend than anybody has in years!


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

You helped yourself by finally trying to find a spot that you could talk about marriage relationships and get some opinions/advice. 

This site has been a tremendous help for me too. Just reading some problems that other couples have.. have really opened my eyes & brought different perspectives to some marriage problems.

I realize each marriage is different, and half of the advice might not apply to you, because the poster is coming from such a different situation than your own. But many times, seeing the light in other relationships, makes you want to see some brightness in your own.


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

Just started reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" today. 

Damn! I am a nice guy! I have some work to do!

Even at work, this is pretty disturbing. I have a female partner in my office, we are Realtors. She is older than me, but I sell much more than she does. She always has me doing these menial tasks and I am the type where I won't say no, I don't like conflict.

Tomorrow the conflict begins.

No more Mr. Nice guy!

I don't even know how to thank you guys!

UPDATE:

Holy crap! I just read why I am so nice. My dad WASN'T! He was an alcoholic, abusive etc. I don't drink at all and have never raised my hand to anybody. Now I know why!

This is all starting to make sense!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jims1020 said:


> Just started reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" today.
> 
> Damn! I am a nice guy! I have some work to do!
> 
> ...


You will EARN more *RESPECT* (and with your co-workers) with some tactfully honest conflict..it is called *HOLDING YOUR BOUNDARIES*..... if you feel you are right, stand your ground, don't be taken advantage of.... many people in this life are Boundary-less, they have not be taught right and they prey on those who will cater. 

Here is another book that addresses this very nicely -the PLeasers who can't say "NO"... - written by Christian Authors... but irregardless of faith...so helpful ... I read this many years ago... eye opening... a life changer...

Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life: 



> Having clear boundaries is essential to a healthy, balanced lifestyle. A boundary is a personal property line that marks those things for which we are responsible. In other words, boundaries define who we are and who we are not. Boundaries impact all areas of our lives:
> 
> *Physical boundaries *help us determine who may touch us and under what circumstances --
> 
> ...


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> You will EARN more *RESPECT* (and with your co-workers) with some tactfully honest conflict..it is called *HOLDING YOUR BOUNDARIES*..... if you feel you are right, stand your ground, don't be taken advantage of.... many people in this life are Boundary-less, they have not be taught right and they prey on those who will cater.
> 
> Here is another book that addresses this very nicely -the PLeasers who can't say "NO"... it is christian based, but so helpful to anyone regardless of belief... I read this many years ago, a life changer...
> 
> Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life:


You should get a commission on these books lol! I already bought 2 at your suggestion!

You know about the not fighting thing? I now see it's a passive aggression thing, and you know where it comes out? On Xbox. I always get in arguments with people online, in fact I have been banned several times. In real life I NEVER yell at people, so this is evidently my release....

And she HATES it! She hates the Xbox because of that fact. That is the only place where she sees my ugly side. And trust me, it gets ugly. I hate losing. I get very immature about it.

So now I know that I am going to speak my mind more often and not go on the Xbox.

I am getting this figured out!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You sing the song, get her to sing along. And see what happens.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jims1020 said:


> You should get a commission on these books lol! I already bought 2 at your suggestion!


 I am just a ReadAholic.....I spend so much time on forums I don't seem to find the time to read anymore... every issue I ever had, I'd find a book to break it wide open... started with Anger.. helped me dig deep to what was behind that... a loss of control.



> You know about the not fighting thing? I now see it's a passive aggression thing, and you know where it comes out? On Xbox. I always get in arguments with people online, in fact I have been banned several times. In real life I NEVER yell at people, so this is evidently my release....


 Everyone has a release somewhere... This makes SENSE... absolutely. There are some on this forum... who are timid in real life -wouldn't say "BOO"... but let loose on these boards, and have been banned a # of times... this is their release... 



> And she HATES it! She hates the Xbox because of that fact. That is the only place where she sees my ugly side. And trust me, it gets ugly. I hate losing. I get very immature about it.


 You sound like our 6 yr old son...ha ha , I was just chasing him around the house a couple times this morning, I can't stand how he reacts to loosing.. I just want to spank his butt. 



> So now I know that I am going to speak my mind more often and not go on the Xbox.










If you could divert some of your attention TO YOUR WIFE and not the X-box, this could be a start of some rekindling in your relationship. Oh yes.. I don't think many women get all hot & bothered seeing their man all over video games.. 

Happy this is one thing the husband doesn't get into .


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am just a ReadAholic.....I spend so much time on forums I don't seem to find the time to read anymore... every issue I ever had, I'd find a book to break it wide open... started with Anger.. helped me dig deep to what was behind that... a loss of control.
> 
> Everyone has a release somewhere... This makes SENSE... absolutely. There are some on this forum... who are timid in real life -wouldn't say "BOO"... but let loose on these boards, and have been banned a # of times... this is their release...
> 
> ...


I wish I didn't, but it's literally an addiction. She is off reading a book, grading papers, doing the bills etc, and I am playing golf or football lol!

I am going to minimize it though! :smthumbup:


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## jims1020 (Apr 6, 2013)

One question for the ladies.

I used to call her "chubby" and "boobs" cause she is rather curvy. She hated it and I promised not to do it anymore. So now I call her "gorgeous" "pretty girl" etc.

Should I stop and call it the way I see it? She is pretty but could use some exercise, a firm up here, a sit up there.

Can I tell her as the Alpha male? or is that crossing the line?


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Uh, you're doing great-but for god's sake, DON'T TELL HER THAT SHE NEEDS TO EXERCISE!!!

Better yet, maybe suggest that you exercise together?


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

jims1020 said:


> I have been married for 20 years to a woman I am deeply in love with. We have a great life and 2 great kids. We have a very active sex life, sometimes 4 times per week. But there is one thing missing. She isn't affectionate, and I ALWAYS initiate the sex. When we were first married she would sing this little song, "tonight's the night....for love" it was so cute, since she has no singing voice at all. But it told me she was in the mood for love. She was very cuddly and kissy. Now we almost never kiss, except for when we leave for work. There just isn't any romance from her side. I have been trying different things, such as I do the laundry, I go grocery shopping with her, help the kids with homework etc. She just doesn't show it the way she used to. Maybe that's how it's supposed to be after 20 years? Like I said we have sex all the time, and she is into it when we do, but it's ALWAYS my idea. I would like her to come to ME once and ask me to make love to her or something like that. Heck I would be happy just to hold her hand, I am really just looking for the little things. So am I stupid and should I just be happy with what I have? Am I reading something from nothing? I would appreciate any feedback. Thanks!:smthumbup:


My marriage was a hundred times worse last November...We did the book The 5 Love Languages. It made a world of difference...


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

jims1020 said:


> One question for the ladies.
> 
> I used to call her "chubby" and "boobs" cause she is rather curvy. She hated it and I promised not to do it anymore. So now I call her "gorgeous" "pretty girl" etc.
> 
> ...



Well... I don't know alot about the changing of beta to alpha ways... but I'd think it would cross the line a bit if you went back to calling her nick-names that she already expressed she didn't like.

I mean.. it depends on how you go about it. Yes, compliment her on losing weight... or getting some excersize in,.. but don't call her pudgy. I could see once "slipping" & calling her "boobs" in a friendly way.... and see if she reacts with a negative feeling (my guess is she will). That would tell you to stay away from pet names that cut her down or indicate you don't appreciate when she tries to dress up.

Being more alpha means to be assertive and having self confidence. Not turning into a meany just for the heck of it. You can be nice/pleasant.. .and still be very alpha/assertive.


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