# She answered my question



## KingwoodKev

Had a nice chat tonight. After advice here I re-asked the question. For those that don't know it was "if OM had asked you to run off with him and leave us, would you have?"

She told me at that moment in time, yes. She said she definitely had a "maybe the grass is greener" thing going thinking about running away from all her responsibilities and being with a very irresponsible person. She went on to say that now her head is clear and there's no way she'd ever even speak to him again. She said she's completely humiliated that she allowed herself to get involved with such a douche but that she was panicking when she turned 45 and he just happened to be available and not me.

Another thing she told me from her therapy session is that the shrink told her that her feelings for him may have not been real but her own biology betraying her. She said that when women have repeated sex with a man that a chemical process kicks off in them that makes them feel love for the man. WTF is that? So you're saying that if you F a woman enough times she has to love you? Sounds like egghead bullsh*t to me.

Anyway the chat was good. I'm still not healthy enough to even consider her moving back in but she knows that I'm at least willing to begin the long process of R so that made her happy. As those of you who've helped me probably realize I still have a sh*tload of rage in me. I don't think we should move too fast until I deal with that.

Anyone reading this and wanting to know my story it's on another thread but here's the cliff notes. Met at 18, married at 19, perfect marriage for for 26 years, 3 kids, then supposedly a midlife crisis overwhelms my beautiful perfect wife at age 45 and she ends up in a full-on affair with one of her good friend's husbands. A couple that were good friends of ours. Now all families' lives are in shambles. The OMW divorced him and he's gone off in another state. My wife is in purgatory (a small apartment I rented for her when I kicked her out), our children still won't speak to her and it's been two years since d-day. She had to quit her job because it was a pretty conservative business and she being a "slvt" was the talk of the office. She didn't confide the affair to me, I had to find out from OMW with irrefutable proof and wife lied every step of the way only admitting to what we had proof of. Since then she has given me full disclosure, every horrific detail. She also found out that she meant nothing to the OM other than being a piece of ass. Now she says the therapy has helped her recognize it for what it was and that she begs me for a 2nd chance. I still replay mental movies a thousand times a day and still can't understand why this happened when she keeps insisting that it had nothing to do with me and was just about her and her "overwhelming panic after turning 45 and wondering if there was more out there."

That's about the only update but it was a decent day. I have to admit that I'm happier than when I was ignoring her and basically mentally torturing her for her sin against me. I actually feel somewhat ashamed of myself for taking satisfaction in her complete despair following the blow up and her excommunication from all family and friends. Still, everything I ask of her to consider R she now does without hesitation. So far.


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## Tobyboy

Divorce her....then start dating others, your ex also if you want.


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## KingwoodKev

I forgot to add that I did read each and every post you all put on my story thread. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/244162-ok-my-story-i-need-help.html

I just wanted to tell you all that I highly appreciate it. I'm still figuring my way forward but I've gotten some great advice here and, even better, I've met other people who have gone through the exact same thing. Both my therapist and our MC have never been cheated on so it's hard for me to blindly accept their advice.


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## drifting on

KingwoodKev

If you want R I back you completely. I only have one question, what is she going to do if another crisis arises? This is why I said to be wary of the mid life crisis excuse. So did other posters. She has told you partial truth in that she thought the grass was greener. In my opinion it was an exit affair as she knew you wouldn't tolerate an affair. Only OM told her she is only a piece of ass. What does she do now? Crawl back to you because everyone else turned their backs on her. I tell you this so you know how difficult R is with a remorseful spouse. One that blames it on a mid life crisis in a good marriage, in her own words, will be difficult to R with. She isn't taking the blame one hundred percent and instead using the mid life crisis excuse. You admitted to a mid life crisis yourself buying a Harley. Why didn't you want to know if the grass was greener? Because something is broke within her. Make her find out what is broken. Good luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolfman1968

Kev, I put this on another thread to you, but I will respond here.

As you seem to think, I also do not think that "Midlife Crisis" is a good enough reason to cheat. There is something ELSE as well that she has not addressed, which made her Midlife Crisis manifest itself as cheating, rather than other things such as changing jobs, trying to write the Great American Novel, get a sports car, etc. What is that other issue?

- Was it because she regretting having no other sexual experience besides you?
- Was it because she hoped to "trade up" to be with a man she THOUGHT was higher status/more money/whatever.
- Was it because she doesn't find you as attractive as a man/less masculine than the OM?
- Was it because she has personality defects which make her have poor boundaries/lack of empathy to you/etc.?
- Other possible reasons you might think of...


The answer to this would tell me a lot as to whether I would try to Reconcile. For example, if she wanted to "trade up" and the only reason she didn't is because OM didn't want her, then I would feel I was the consolation prize/"Plan B". I couldn't live like that. I have to be my wife's first choice.

Likewise, if she was just more sexually attrated to the OM, and just stuck with me because he wouldn't have her, I wouldn't accept that either. I have to be number one in my wife's desires, or why else get married? Who would want to feel second rate?

You have to decide what sort of situation is acceptable to you. Regardless, I feel that your wife is being evasive by using the Midlife Crisis fig leaf, and I frankly question her IC's competence by not exploring these other issues.

And let me say, that her willingness to run off with the OM makes me think that you were Plan B/Second Choice either for status or sexual attraction.


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## GusPolinski

Kev, I realize that things are unfolding on a day-by-day basis for you at this point, but you'll get much more out of your time here (especially in terms of overall participation) if you'd stick to updating a single thread.


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## Wolfman1968

KingwoodKev said:


> Another thing she told me from her therapy session is that the shrink told her that her feelings for him may have not been real but her own biology betraying her. She said that when women have repeated sex with a man that a chemical process kicks off in them that makes them feel love for the man. WTF is that? So you're saying that if you F a woman enough times she has to love you? Sounds like egghead bullsh*t to me.


Except that evades the question of why he was able to get close enough with her to have sex in the first place to even activate any hormones?


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## KingwoodKev

Wolfman1968 said:


> Kev, I put this on another thread to you, but I will respond here.
> 
> As you seem to think, I also do not think that "Midlife Crisis" is a good enough reason to cheat. There is something ELSE as well that she has not addressed, which made her Midlife Crisis manifest itself as cheating, rather than other things such as changing jobs, trying to write the Great American Novel, get a sports car, etc. What is that other issue?
> 
> - Was it because she regretting having no other sexual experience besides you?
> - Was it because she hoped to "trade up" to be with a man she THOUGHT was higher status/more money/whatever.
> - Was it because she doesn't find you as attractive as a man/less masculine than the OM?
> - Was it because she has personality defects which make her have poor boundaries/lack of empathy to you/etc.?
> - Other possible reasons you might think of...
> 
> 
> The answer to this would tell me a lot as to whether I would try to Reconcile. For example, if she wanted to "trade up" and the only reason she didn't is because OM didn't want her, then I would feel I was the consolation prize/"Plan B". I couldn't live like that. I have to be my wife's first choice.
> 
> Likewise, if she was just more sexually attrated to the OM, and just stuck with me because he wouldn't have her, I wouldn't accept that either. I have to be number one in my wife's desires, or why else get married? Who would want to feel second rate?
> 
> You have to decide what sort of situation is acceptable to you. Regardless, I feel that your wife is being evasive by using the Midlife Crisis fig leaf, and I frankly question her IC's competence by not exploring these other issues.
> 
> And let me say, that her willingness to run off with the OM makes me think that you were Plan B/Second Choice either for status or sexual attraction.


At first I totally rejected the midlife crisis as a cheap excuse but I've been doing a lot of research on my own and it appears that affairs are common with people going through midlife crisis that have only ever been with 1 sexual partner. I was her first and only until 2 years ago.

Still, we have a long way to go. I'm committed to R but it has to be at my pace. I'm still way too full of rage for it to be a healthy R at this point. Two years later and the thought of it still crushes my soul and enrages me. Especially when she insists how perfect we had everything and she didn't appreciate that enough. That makes it worse and I've told her so.


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## Wolfman1968

KingwoodKev said:


> Still, everything I ask of her to consider R she now does without hesitation. So far.


Except some things she can't do. 
Like be the woman she once was, who never betrayed you.
That woman is gone forvever.

I know that sounds trite and obvious, but that matters a lot in these situations. It is one of the reasons some BS cannot Reconcile.


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## KingwoodKev

Wolfman1968 said:


> Except some things she can't do.
> Like be the woman she once was, who never betrayed you.
> That woman is gone forvever.
> 
> I know that sounds trite and obvious, but that matters a lot in these situations. It is one of the reasons some BS cannot Reconcile.


For me to do a real R I will have to be ready to take a leap of faith and trust her completely and forgive her fully. Some here are saying that's impossible but I don't think it is. Am I ready to do that today? Of course not. I can't, however, have a wife that I don't trust and have to plant GPS and VAR's in her car and around the house so I can keep tabs on her. If I thought that was the only future I'd have to end it forever.

I've decided that if we put in the work and I get to that point I'm going to jump in head first again into the deep end and trust her with my life. If I can't do that then it's over. We'll see where it goes from her. It's the only way it can work for me. I've told her this and she said that she knows she can earn that trust again. As I said, we'll see.


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## Wolfman1968

KingwoodKev said:


> At first I totally rejected the midlife crisis as a cheap excuse but I've been doing a lot of research on my own and it appears that affairs are common with people going through midlife crisis that have only ever been with 1 sexual partner. I was her first and only until 2 years ago.
> 
> Still, we have a long way to go. I'm committed to R but it has to be at my pace. I'm still way too full of rage for it to be a healthy R at this point. Two years later and the thought of it still crushes my soul and enrages me. Especially when she insists how perfect we had everything and she didn't appreciate that enough. That makes it worse and I've told her so.


Well, you're a better man than me (I think). 
I couldn't do it, because with her confession about running away with the OM, it looks like you're her Plan B. I couldn't live like that.

It would also be pretty sh**ty if she just did it for sex because of her lack of other experience, but never intended to leave me. In that situation, she would be selfish, lack boundaries, unable to control her lusts, but at least I wouldn't feel like she had chosen him OVER me from a status or sexual aspect--she just wanted him IN ADDITION to me. That is still a horrible situation, but maybe a little easier to Reconcile, because it doesn't involve a demotion of me in her eyes.

But with her actually CHOOSING him OVER me? No, couldn't do it.


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## KingwoodKev

Wolfman1968 said:


> Well, you're a better man than me (I think).
> I couldn't do it, because with her confession about running away with the OM, it looks like you're her Plan B. I couldn't live like that.
> 
> It would also be pretty sh**ty if she just did it for sex because of her lack of other experience, but never intended to leave me. In that situation, she would be selfish, lack boundaries, unable to control her lusts, but at least I wouldn't feel like she had chosen him OVER me from a status or sexual aspect--she just wanted him IN ADDITION to me. That is still a horrible situation, but maybe a little easier to Reconcile, because it doesn't involve a demotion of me in her eyes.
> 
> But with her actually CHOOSING him OVER me? No, couldn't do it.


That is a very tough part for me and we'll have to work through it but she said that she wanted to be honest and at that moment she was "going nuts" and very confused about everything. She said that running off with him would have been less painful for her than facing me. It's not going to be easy. I think I need a lot more therapy myself to deal with this. R won't happen overnight or this year or probably next year. I've told her this and she said she'd spend the rest of our lives working toward it even if we never get there.

As I said, I won't invite her fully back into my life and my bed until I'm ready to plunge head first back into this marriage. That's just a requirement of mine. I can't do the R but with spying and constant surveillance. It has to be full trust or nothing. Hopefully we get there. As angry as I am and as hurt as I am it still hurts me that she is hurting so badly. That tells me that even after all this utterly horrific last two years I still love this woman against all better judgment.


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## Wolfman1968

KingwoodKev said:


> At first I totally rejected the midlife crisis as a cheap excuse but I've been doing a lot of research on my own and it appears that affairs are common with people going through midlife crisis that have only ever been with 1 sexual partner.



Well, it may be common, but Midlife Crisis doesn't mean she became mentally incompetent.

She would have still been expected to control herself against committing murder, assault, fraud, even shoplifting. She is still considered to know right from wrong. Do you think "Midlife Crisis" would be accepted by a judge if she walked out of a store with a piece of jewelry in her pocket? So why is it accepted for a betrayal of a life partner?

No, there is a second reason at play, here. From her confession, it sounds like you were Plan B, and she would have left with the OM if he would have had her.

As I said, you have to decide for yourself, but I think I deserve more than that. I deserve to be #1 in her heart, not First Runner-Up. I couldn't live like that.


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## KingwoodKev

Wolfman1968 said:


> Well, it may be common, but Midlife Crisis doesn't mean she became mentally incompetent.
> 
> She would have still been expected to control herself against committing murder, assault, fraud, even shoplifting. She is still considered to know right from wrong. Do you think "Midlife Crisis" would be accepted by a judge it she walked out of a store with a piece of jewelry in her pocket? So why is it accepted for a betrayal of a life partner?
> 
> No, there is a second reason at play, here. From her confession, it sounds like you were Plan B, and she would have left with the OM if he would have had her.
> 
> As I said, you have to decide for yourself, but I think I deserve more than that. I deserve to be #1 in her heart, not First Runner-Up. I couldn't live like that.


I can't live with that either that's why it's one of the milestones I listed that we have to reach before she's really my wife again. I have to be 100% convinced that I'm her #1 and ONLY choice from now until death do us part. You know, the vow that she took and broke. The MC told me to list milestones. That's been helpful. I'm still in the process of coming up with them but this one is an important one. Another one is still the "why" of the whole thing for the same reasons you're asking. I have to be convinced of why she did it. If it's midlife crisis panic then why not go back to school or buy a fancy car or run a marathon or take up a new hobby or any one of a thousand things. I bought a Harley and I love my Harley. Why for her was it screwing someone we knew for a friggin year?

Another milestone is that I'd need to be able to be intimate with her without that triggering mental images and utter rage. We still haven't touched each other at all since d-day nor could I right now. A fear of mine is that she does something different even if it's just slightly and subtly different. I'd know it was something she did with him or he showed her and I'd f'ing flip out.


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## Wolfman1968

KingwoodKev said:


> I can't live with that either that's why it's one of the milestones I listed that we have to reach before she's really my wife again. I have to be 100% convinced that I'm her #1 and ONLY choice from now until death do us part. You know, the vow that she took and broke. The MC told me to list milestones. That's been helpful. I'm still in the process of coming up with them but this one is an important one. Another one is still the "why" of the whole thing for the same reasons you're asking. I have to be convinced of why she did it. If it's midlife crisis panic then why not go back to school or buy a fancy car or run a marathon or take up a new hobby or any one of a thousand things. I bought a Harley and I love my Harley. Why for her was it screwing someone we knew for a friggin year?
> 
> Another milestone is that I'd need to be able to be intimate with her without that triggering mental images and utter rage. We still haven't touched each other at all since d-day nor could I right now. A fear of mine is that she does something different even if it's just slightly and subtly different. I'd know it was something she did with him or he showed her and I'd f'ing flip out.


Well, good luck.

I wonder what makes you able to try this and not me?
Am I too proud? Are you more forgiving? Is my heart more heardened than yours? I don't know. 

I just know you are going to try something I never could, and so I wish you luck.


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## honcho

I am glad she gave you an honest answer about whether she would have run off with Mr perfect. The therapist is letting her off "easy" with the ever encompassing mid life crisis or hormones. It isn't uncommon in the therapy work. Many make the patient feel better they don't necessarily get to the root of the problem. 

If you want to R you do have to be committed but you also have to be willing to divorce if its not working. You can't just say you're reconciled. Its the start of a long hard journey. You can't blindly trust her again and you won't. The damage has been done and can't be forgotten. 

You want to keep the rose colored glasses on but if you put her on the pedestal again your bound for trouble. A friend of mine had the perfect marriage. He had an affair and got caught. When I asked him why he told me that his wife had him on such a pedestal he could do no wrong. He figured even if he got caught she would forgive him because she was so devoted to him. His selfishness and ego was his failing. It was a lame answer but he was truthful. He really thought he could chase the thrill and not have any real consequences if caught.

She divorced him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

KingwoodKev said:


> Had a nice chat tonight. After advice here I re-asked the question. For those that don't know it was "if OM had asked you to run off with him and leave us, would you have?"
> 
> She told me at that moment in time, yes. She said she definitely had a "maybe the grass is greener" thing going thinking about running away from all her responsibilities and being with a very irresponsible person. She went on to say that now her head is clear and there's no way she'd ever even speak to him again. She said she's completely humiliated that she allowed herself to get involved with such a douche but that she was panicking when she turned 45 and he just happened to be available and not me.
> 
> Another thing she told me from her therapy session is that the shrink told her that her feelings for him may have not been real but her own biology betraying her. She said that when women have repeated sex with a man that a chemical process kicks off in them that makes them feel love for the man. WTF is that? So you're saying that if you F a woman enough times she has to love you? Sounds like egghead bullsh*t to me.
> 
> Anyway the chat was good. I'm still not healthy enough to even consider her moving back in but she knows that I'm at least willing to begin the long process of R so that made her happy. As those of you who've helped me probably realize I still have a sh*tload of rage in me. I don't think we should move too fast until I deal with that.
> 
> Anyone reading this and wanting to know my story it's on another thread but here's the cliff notes. Met at 18, married at 19, perfect marriage for for 26 years, 3 kids, then supposedly a midlife crisis overwhelms my beautiful perfect wife at age 45 and she ends up in a full-on affair with one of her good friend's husbands. A couple that were good friends of ours. Now all families' lives are in shambles. The OMW divorced him and he's gone off in another state. My wife is in purgatory (a small apartment I rented for her when I kicked her out), our children still won't speak to her and it's been two years since d-day. She had to quit her job because it was a pretty conservative business and she being a "slvt" was the talk of the office. She didn't confide the affair to me, I had to find out from OMW with irrefutable proof and wife lied every step of the way only admitting to what we had proof of. Since then she has given me full disclosure, every horrific detail. She also found out that she meant nothing to the OM other than being a piece of ass. Now she says the therapy has helped her recognize it for what it was and that she begs me for a 2nd chance. I still replay mental movies a thousand times a day and still can't understand why this happened when she keeps insisting that it had nothing to do with me and was just about her and her "overwhelming panic after turning 45 and wondering if there was more out there."
> 
> That's about the only update but it was a decent day. I have to admit that I'm happier than when I was ignoring her and basically mentally torturing her for her sin against me. I actually feel somewhat ashamed of myself for taking satisfaction in her complete despair following the blow up and her excommunication from all family and friends. Still, everything I ask of her to consider R she now does without hesitation. So far.


Sadly what her counsellor told he was cold hard science.

Of course there is a defence against that happening. Don't start having extramarital sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jung_admirer

drifting on said:


> KingwoodKev
> 
> If you want R I back you completely. I only have one question, what is she going to do if another crisis arises? This is why I said to be wary of the mid life crisis excuse. So did other posters. She has told you partial truth in that she thought the grass was greener. In my opinion it was an exit affair as she knew you wouldn't tolerate an affair. Only OM told her she is only a piece of ass. What does she do now? Crawl back to you because everyone else turned their backs on her. I tell you this so you know how difficult R is with a remorseful spouse. One that blames it on a mid life crisis in a good marriage, in her own words, will be difficult to R with. She isn't taking the blame one hundred percent and instead using the mid life crisis excuse. You admitted to a mid life crisis yourself buying a Harley. Why didn't you want to know if the grass was greener? Because something is broke within her. *Make her find out what is broken.* Good luck to you.


There is a good chance that what's broken is not fixable. The way adults compensate for our deficits is by creating boundaries. She has to show you she will religiously respect the boundaries she needs to protect the marriage. You'll need to verify this for a while as you rebuild trust. Kindest Regards-


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## Q tip

If you want to learn a different angle, read up on Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011. Also read up on strategies that PUA use to nail women.

Below is an example of PUAs. Women have weak boundaries. Just enough that if they don't respond strongly... 

(Located and copied by another poster)

Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
***********************************************

My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.

For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.

I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.

The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.

If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.

Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.

I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.

I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.

As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.

The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.

I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.


I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.

I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.

It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.

Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.

It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.


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## seasalt

I can't give you a suggestion about your situation based upon my own because I've never cheated or been cheated upon but I'm older than you and perhaps am where you want to get to.

First, I've always thought that 100% of a demonstrably remorseful spouse and 100% of your children is better than 50% of your children and a possible crapshoot with your next partner. With that said it's been two years since your discovery and she seems to be doing nothing more than wallowing in her guilt. She's allowed you to closet her in an apartment you pay for and has little or no connection to her children. How is that evidence of someone worth trusting again or for that matter having in your life again? If you pull the switch and ask her back into your life what is it that will make your lives better?

Twenty-five years from now when the only sex you have will have will be in your head do you want it to be mind movies of her and her boyfriend? You need to be doing things that make you feel good about yourself to prepare for those times when you can't just forget about what she did.

I can't believe that I'm saying this but sometime in the past two years you should have tested the waters with another woman. Not as a means for revenge or to hurt her but to determine if you truly want her and her baggage back.

It sounds to me that you are miserable without her and perhaps even more miserable thinking about taking her back that you should have a clearer understanding about all the choices you have available to you.

Good luck,

Seasalt


----------



## Jasel

KingwoodKev said:


> For me to do a real R I will have to be ready to take a leap of faith and trust her completely and forgive her fully.


There's nothing wrong with trusting or forgiving her but never trust ANYONE completely.

That being said, good luck. It sounds like your wife is 100% dedicated to R which is good. Just make sure you move at a pace that's good for you.


----------



## wmn1

KingwoodKev said:


> For me to do a real R I will have to be ready to take a leap of faith and trust her completely and forgive her fully. Some here are saying that's impossible but I don't think it is. Am I ready to do that today? Of course not. I can't, however, have a wife that I don't trust and have to plant GPS and VAR's in her car and around the house so I can keep tabs on her. If I thought that was the only future I'd have to end it forever.
> 
> I've decided that if we put in the work and I get to that point I'm going to jump in head first again into the deep end and trust her with my life. If I can't do that then it's over. We'll see where it goes from her. It's the only way it can work for me. I've told her this and she said that she knows she can earn that trust again. As I said, we'll see.



I am not trying to stir the pot any more. Trust me, I'm not. She's been gone for two years now. Are you confident that during those two years, there hasn't been anyone else she has seen ? Based on what you tell us, I doubted it but just asking for your insight.


----------



## convert

wmn1 said:


> I am not trying to stir the pot any more. Trust me, I'm not. She's been gone for two years now. Are you confident that during those two years, there hasn't been anyone else she has seen ? Based on what you tell us, I doubted it but just asking for your insight.


this is a good question.

I would like to ask another one, has OP dated in those 2 years?


----------



## wmn1

Q tip said:


> If you want to learn a different angle, read up on Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011. Also read up on strategies that PUA use to nail women.
> 
> Below is an example of PUAs. Women have weak boundaries. Just enough that if they don't respond strongly...
> 
> (Located and copied by another poster)
> 
> Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
> ***********************************************
> 
> My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.
> 
> For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.
> 
> I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
> 1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
> 2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
> 3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.
> 
> The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.
> 
> If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.
> 
> Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.
> 
> I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.
> 
> I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.
> 
> As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.
> 
> The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.
> 
> I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.
> 
> 
> I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.
> 
> I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.
> 
> It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.
> 
> Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.
> 
> It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.


It's sad that so many are frail enough to cheat like that.

His statement about how many of them are still married tell me that they hid it after their affairs and their husbands are living lies right now.

So sad and I see some of these players every day. If they came across my boundary, I would crush them.

Good input QTip


----------



## CantBelieveThis

wmn1 said:


> IHis statement about how many of them are still married tell me that they hid it after their affairs and their husbands are living lies right now.


it is sad, I have read multiple articles that say the majority of affairs are never discovered...thats devastating to hear....


----------



## lifeistooshort

There's a fundamental character flaw in someone that's willing to run off with her friends hb and ruin the lives of everyone around her because she can't handle being 45. I get it, I'm 40 and having my own mid life issues but I'm trying to envision a circumstance where I'd f!ck up my friends lives by taking off with their husband.....i can't. 

I don't think you'll ever really know if you're number 1 because getting back with you also means getting her life back. If she had to sacrifice get back with you then you'd have a better idea. This really is a leap of faith.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## arbitrator

Q tip said:


> *If you want to learn a different angle, read up on Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011. Also read up on strategies that PUA use to nail women.
> 
> Below is an example of PUAs. Women have weak boundaries. Just enough that if they don't respond strongly...
> 
> (Located and copied by another poster)
> 
> Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
> ***********************************************
> 
> My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.
> 
> For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.
> 
> I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
> 1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
> 2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
> 3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.
> 
> The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.
> 
> If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.
> 
> Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.
> 
> I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.
> 
> I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.
> 
> As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.
> 
> The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.
> 
> I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.
> 
> 
> I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.
> 
> I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.
> 
> It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.
> 
> Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.
> 
> It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.*


* While this posting does lend itself to being somewhat confessionary of being so self-servingly "predatory," more especially toward married women, I would think that it is so very true of a lot of men out there!

It gives me chilling flashbacks to my rich, skanky XW, who had two OM simultaneously. But the first and primary one was her deceased first husband's best friend from work, who from all of the evidence that I encountered, led her on, largely by some of the same lines and verbiage contained within this posting.

But IMHO, the fault does not solely lie with the "guy on the make." Although he provides the needed psychological as well as the physical stimuli to a willing candidate, in order to get his unbridled hedonistic needs met by having a married, family woman drop her drawers for him, the "proof of the pudding" is quite preeminent that she had one of two responses that she could have offered up.

She could have chosen to take the high road and tell this guy to go to hell, that she is a married family woman, or perhaps things on the homefront were not as aesthetically pleasing as she would like them to be, and to wit, her feminine psyche lets his more than attentive listening skills kick in, followed up by his soothing, inviting words soak into her ears then into her inner being, causing her undergarments in greatly letting the force of gravity take over in causing them to fall before him in a Southerly direction!

It is not her fault that he extended the lurid, self-serving invitation; it is her fault, however, that she chose to accept it!

Kev: the ball is in your court! You've known her longer than most anybody else! She has confessed only from being "outed!" How many times prior to this episode might she have done the same thing and walked away Scot-free?Without the first scintilla of knowledge on your part? What guarantees are there that even after R, that she might revert back to her old ways? Does it mean anything to you when those sweet, assuring words of his caused her to lower her inhibitions, as well as other things, that you were even a speck on the radar in her heart or in her mind?

If you feel that the "risk" is worth it in pursuing R, then I'd say "Go for it!" But I greatly feel that the evidence is just too overwhelming that she is somehow proactive in "sweet-talking" you into R solely to save her own backside! Take this as it is, the evidence has been duly presented to you ~ and the ball is now securely in your court! Decide accordingly after praying about it!

Q-Tips post is most eye-opening. And because of my strong morals, I want to readily condemn the confessionary author who wrote that piece. But because of the Christian who I am, I choose not to. He must first seek God, and then make peace with himself as well as all of the innocent people that all of his self-serving actions brought even the slightest amount of harm to!*


----------



## bfree

Jung_admirer said:


> There is a good chance that what's broken is not fixable. The way adults compensate for our deficits is by creating boundaries. She has to show you she will religiously respect the boundaries she needs to protect the marriage. You'll need to verify this for a while as you rebuild trust. Kindest Regards-


You know, for some reason I found a lot of truth in this statement. I think it bears repeating.


----------



## GusPolinski

lifeistooshort said:


> There's a fundamental character flaw in someone that's willing to run off with her friends hb and ruin the lives of everyone around her because she can't handle being 45. I get it, I'm 40 and having my own mid life issues but I'm trying to envision a circumstance where I'd f!ck up my friends lives by taking off with their husband.....i can't.
> 
> *I don't think you'll ever really know if you're number 1 because getting back with you also means getting her life back. If she had to sacrifice get back with you then you'd have a better idea. This really is a leap of faith.*


Word.

Kev, if you want to test your wife's commitment, consider telling her that, while you're open to (and even leaning toward) reconciliation, you'd like to proceed w/ an amicable divorce. After all, there's no reason that you can't begin rebuilding your relationship _now_, and then continue doing so after the divorce is final.

If you decide to do this, don't tell her over the phone or via e-mail or text. Instead, take her out and have the conversation w/ her face-to-face. You can take her for a leisurely drive and have a picnic for two, or you can head to your favorite restaurant and then retreat to a quiet corner table in a dimly-lit back room. Either way, _you need to be able to see *the look on her face* when you communicate ^this^ to her._

Additional thoughts...

* If you opt for the scenario that I've desribed above, have a definite timeline in mind w/ respect to re-marrying your wife. I'd say no more than 2 years, but no less than a year.

* If you're not keen on the divorce/re-marriage idea (it's not a bad idea, but I wouldn't blame you for not being a fan), then continue to live apart from and date your wife for a while. Let intimacy resume. Encourage your wife to rebuild her strained relationship w/ your children and vice-versa. Once six months to a year have passed, re-evaluate your relationship and proceed accordingly.

* Come to grips w/ the notion that, should you opt for reconciliation, you're likely going to have to give up your friendship w/ OM's ex-wife. And not because your wife will demand it (given everything that I've read, she probably wouldn't), but because her continued presence in your life (even as a friend) may very well take a somewhat toxic turn once she learns that you've decided to commit to the reconciliation of your marriage.


----------



## bfree

Just an opposing view. I don't agree with the divorce first then reconcile crowd. I know it's going to sound silly considering what she did but women value the marriage connection much more than men. She will more than likely see it as the end of the relationship and give up.


----------



## GusPolinski

bfree said:


> Just an opposing view. I don't agree with the divorce first then reconcile crowd. I know it's going to sound silly considering what she did but women value the marriage connection much more than men. She will more than likely see it as the end of the relationship and give up.


Eh... that's a thought. Either way, standard disclaimer...

1) He knows her, I don't.
2) Take what applies and discard the rest.
3) Be honest w/ yourself and each other.
4) Yadda yadda blah, et al, etc

But honestly, I'd think that communicating the desire to divorce/reconnect/remarry in the manner that I described would be effective if she's truly committed to rebuilding their relationship, marriage, and family.

If not, see #1 - #4 above.


----------



## turnera

KingwoodKev said:


> Another thing she told me from her therapy session is that the shrink told her that her feelings for him may have not been real but her own biology betraying her. She said that when women have repeated sex with a man that a chemical process kicks off in them that makes them feel love for the man. WTF is that? So you're saying that if you F a woman enough times she has to love you? Sounds like egghead bullsh*t to me.


It's true. It's biology. Assuming he's not abusing her or something. Women approach sex completely differently than men do.



KingwoodKev said:


> I still replay mental movies a thousand times a day and still can't understand why this happened when she keeps insisting that it had nothing to do with me and was just about her and her "overwhelming panic after turning 45 and wondering if there was more out there."


Again, that's why they call it a midlife crisis - you see yourself running out of time, with this ONE life you have, and you wonder if it could have been different.

Of course, it's not that simple. There was SOMEthing in her life/your marriage that she wasn't too keen on and thought something else would be better. Have you even addressed that?

And why aren't YOU in therapy? You're the one who needs it most at this point.


----------



## Q tip

bfree said:


> Just an opposing view. I don't agree with the divorce first then reconcile crowd. I know it's going to sound silly considering what she did but women value the marriage connection much more than men. She will more than likely see it as the end of the relationship and give up.


I think that's the point. If she gives up, she ain't all-in. R is his way not hers. She lost her vote when she stepped out on her marriage.

By seeing it that way, tells him what he needs to know. She won't face consequences. He's then free to date younger hotter babes...


----------



## Q tip

If she values the marriage connection, there would have been no mess in the first place. Duh!


----------



## turnera

I've seen quite a few 'moral' and 'righteous' people who valued their marriage get sucked into affairs. It's not that black and white.


----------



## Graywolf2

One thing you can say for your wife is that she’s consistent. Both before and after the affair everything is about her. Her life and feelings come first before you and your children.



KingwoodKev said:


> My wife had to quit her job as a financial analyst because of the looks and whispers going on about her at work. Plus, she confessed that the guys she knew were douche bags suddenly came around to talk to her, to console her. Obviously they found out she's a slvt.


Her actions made it unpleasant at work. We can’t have that so she quit and you’re paying her rent. Does she have a new job? Does the new job pay as much as her old job? Does she feel guilty that her affair fallout is soaking up finances that could pay for your kids’ education? Or is she the poor victim of her “crazy” actions? 

Why couldn’t she just take one for the team (your family) and suffer the consequences of her actions at work and make money? 

The OM no longer worked there and she didn’t have to have sex with the other men in the office.



KingwoodKev said:


> That is a very tough part for me and we'll have to work through it but she said that she wanted to be honest and at that moment she was "going nuts" and very confused about everything. She said that running off with him would have been less painful for her than facing me.


So at that moment she would have run off with the OM. Again her feelings (pleasure of OM and pain of facing you) counted more than you or your kids.



KingwoodKev said:


> She didn't confide the affair to me, I had to find out from OMW with irrefutable proof and wife lied every step of the way only admitting to what we had proof of.


Total self-preservation. Going to the mat to protect her way of life. She was willing to disrupt your kids’ way of life but not hers. 



KingwoodKev said:


> She agrees that any attempt at R is 100% on my terms. *She tells me constantly that she can't go on living *if she thought we couldn't get back to the place we used to be.
> 
> *She's lost *without my smile, the surprise gifts, the shoulder to cry on, the strong arms to be held in when the world is scary. She emails and calls constantly just to chat. I truly believe she realizes what she has done and wants to make it right.


Marriage with you was easy and pleasurable until a different kind of pleasure came her way. Now that she can’t have the OM she wants her old life back. Going to the mat to RECAPTURE her way of life. 



KingwoodKev said:


> I can't live with that either that's why it's one of the milestones I listed that we have to reach before she's really my wife again. I have to be 100% convinced that I'm her #1 and ONLY choice from now until death do us part.


I think you might be able to trust her someday and it will not be because she loves you. It will be because it’s best for her not to have another affair. If she’s convinced that her life will be a disaster if she does, you’re safe.

All your wife’s actions can be predicted by her going after pleasure and avoiding pain. 

Animals react the same way. That’s why animal trainers use treats and sticks. We had a dog that knocked over the trash can in the kitchen when it was a puppy. It made so much noise that it scared the $hit out of it. For the rest of its life you could put a steak in the trash and it wouldn’t even look at it.


----------



## thenub

I would also suggest before bringing up R, have a good long talk with your children and see how they would feel with having their mother back in the picture. 

To me, it sounded like your youngest was the most verbal about the A. Maybe consider trying some family outings and see how things go. You may be able to take her back but the kids may still have a hate on for her. That could make home life dicey at best. 

Just my 2¢


----------



## bfree

Q tip said:


> If she values the marriage connection, there would have been no mess in the first place. Duh!


I agree. That's why I said it may sound silly. But I've seen many cases where a woman who was all in just give up when she thought it was over. Women don't think like men and trying to make them or interpret their thoughts through a man's lense doesn't work.


----------



## Graywolf2

KingwoodKev said:


> She keeps insisting that it had nothing to do with me and was just about her and her "overwhelming panic after turning 45 and wondering if there was more out there.”


She was right. There was more out there. Naughty guilty sex.



KingwoodKev said:


> She even said later that sex with him felt dirty and wrong and nothing like sex between us *(then why the F do it I ask?).*


Let me answer your question. While I think this is the absolute truth, it’s also misleading. With the OM she had no family responsibilities. With him she could be the dirty girl, an experience she never had before. She liked it and went back for more. You're the guy she took to church and school functions. Again it’s all about her.


----------



## Graywolf2

bfree said:


> I know it's going to sound silly considering what she did but women value the marriage connection much more than men. She will more than likely see it as the end of the relationship and give up.


This makes sense. That’s why it amazes me when a WW suddenly realizes how much her husband means to her when the OM becomes unavailable. 

I think it’s the monkey analogy. Monkeys swing from branch to branch through the trees. If the new branch breaks the old branch instantly becomes the best branch ever.


----------



## happyman64

> mentally torturing her for her sin against me.


Did you ever stop and think that her sin against herself is greater?

Some wayward spouses never forgive themselves for their infidelity.

The pain is so deep that their lives end in ruin as well as with their families.

Realize you have great power in your hand. I hope you use it wisely.

The power to forgive.
The power to love.
The power to heal.
The power to unite your family as a cohesive, loving, respectful unit.

Just something I wanted to bring to your attention.

Your wife has the opportunity to fulfill her promise to you. But only if you allow it to happen.

Who knows. You actually might get a better wife back than you had before this mess.

I am heading back to your original thread now.


----------



## vellocet

KingwoodKev said:


> She said she's completely humiliated that she allowed herself to get involved *with such a douche *but that she was panicking when she turned 45 and he just happened to be available and not me.


Ok, have to chime in on that. A douche he certainly is, but she doesn't get to make that call about him. You can, but not her.

Its the whole "pot-kettle-black" thing.




> Another thing she told me from her therapy session is that the shrink told her that her feelings for him may have not been real but her own biology betraying her. She said that when women have repeated sex with a man that a chemical process kicks off in them that makes them feel love for the man. WTF is that? So you're saying that if you F a woman enough times she has to love you? Sounds like egghead bullsh*t to me.


It is bullsh*t. Which is why I don't put much stock in therapists.

Sounds like the therapist is trying to help her make excuses.




> My wife is in purgatory (a small apartment I rented for her when I kicked her out), our children still won't speak to her and it's been two years since d-day. She had to quit her job because it was a pretty conservative business and she being a "slvt" was the talk of the office.


Well you might have to document that. Infidelity doesn't really come into play during a divorce. However, if you document that SHE quit her job and it was because of her actions, then at least that might be support for not having to pay alimony, just in case your R doesn't take.




> She also found out that she meant nothing to the OM other than being a piece of ass.


Do you ever wonder if that's the only reason she wants to R?

What was her emotional state when she found out she was just a piece of ass?





> Now she says the therapy has helped her recognize it for what it was and that she begs me for a 2nd chance.


Was it the therapy? Or finding out she was just a POA and the affair was blown out of the water?




> I still replay mental movies a thousand times a day and still can't understand why this happened when she keeps insisting that it had nothing to do with me and was just about her and her "overwhelming panic after turning 45 and wondering if there was more out there."



It happened because she wanted to have sex with another man. She wanted another man. The explanation above is a load of bunk and an answer designed to get you to have sympathy for her.





> That's about the only update but it was a decent day. I have to admit that I'm happier than when I was ignoring her and *basically mentally torturing her for her sin against me*. I actually feel somewhat ashamed of myself for taking satisfaction in her complete despair following the blow up and her excommunication from all family and friends. Still, everything I ask of her to consider R she now does without hesitation. So far.


Very well my man. Just make sure that during R she isn't feeding you a load of bull. If you want to give it a shot, the best to you. All the things I said above is not me trying to change your mind, but rather think about what she does and what she says and just don't swallow everything she tells you without thinking about it.

But I have a question as far as the bolded part. What is it you should have done?


----------



## Chaparral

turnera said:


> It's true. It's biology. Assuming he's not abusing her or something. Women approach sex completely differently than men do.
> 
> Again, that's why they call it a midlife crisis - you see yourself running out of time, with this ONE life you have, and you wonder if it could have been different.
> 
> Of course, it's not that simple. There was SOMEthing in her life/your marriage that she wasn't too keen on and thought something else would be better. Have you even addressed that?
> 
> And why aren't YOU in therapy? You're the one who needs it most at this point.



I basically agree with this except I do t think mid life crisises have much to do with the marriage. I think it's about a persons mortality. Life is a trap........no one gets out alive. People in this state don't go around acting like older people, they start do the stupid crap they wish they had done when younger. 

Look at the infidelity rate among women that have boob jobs or operations to lose weight. They see a different life available to them and take the leap.

I also think most peoe can be seduced by a player, money or power.


----------



## wmn1

convert said:


> this is a good question.
> 
> I would like to ask another one, has OP dated in those 2 years?



Interesting. I agree


----------



## imjustwatching

Maaan you are just plan B because her first plan didn't work (she even told you this ......)
What if the OM told her to leave you , what if this happen again in the futur with another OM she gonna say midlife crisis again? ( which is bull**** by the way)
You need to man up find another woman and move on there is a lot of honnest women out there....


----------



## thummper

Kev, if it's AT ALL possible, don't abandon her now. It sounds as though she's really trying to make amends and restart her life with you and the rest of her family. Yes, she did something absolutely terrible, but if you can find it in your heart to forgive her, I don't think you'll regret it. I know some people think I'm a Pollyana, but marriage to me is worth fighting for. From your original post, it sounded as though you two had a fantastic relationship. Maybe you can get it back. I hope so for everyone's sake.


----------



## Jellybeans

KingwoodKev said:


> Another thing she told me from her therapy session is that the shrink told her that her feelings for him may have not been real but her own biology betraying her. She said that when women have repeated sex with a man that a chemical process kicks off in them that makes them feel love for the man. WTF is that? So you're saying that if you F a woman enough times she has to love you? Sounds like egghead bullsh*t to me.


It's not bullsh*t. If people sleep together a lot, eventually one or both will end up catching feelings. This is just human nature. It's why "friends with benefits" very rarely ever works out when people try it out. One person (or both) will inevitably start viewing their sexual partner in a more romantic sense.

Oxytocin, serotonin and dopamine all get released when people are into each other/orgasming/having sex. 

None of that makes your wife's affair ok, but sex really does include a "bonding" factor. So there is actually a biological and scientific aspect to it.


----------



## vellocet

wmn1 said:


> I am not trying to stir the pot any more. Trust me, I'm not. She's been gone for two years now. Are you confident that during those two years, there hasn't been anyone else she has seen ? Based on what you tell us, I doubted it but just asking for your insight.


And during those 2 years was she still seeing him.

If so, then here is my take on it. She got to mess around with OM and have her fun, and keep H on the hook as the fall back plan.

IF that is what happened and she was still seeing OM for that time, then, if it were me, that would have to be dealt with before being completely open to R with her. How that would happen I don't know, but it would need to be dealt with. 

Because she could have gotten this out of her system and is now all satisfied that she got her marriage back, but Kev still gets to deal with the mind movies.


----------



## vellocet

Jellybeans said:


> It's not bullsh*t. If people sleep together a lot, eventually one or both will end up catching feelings. This is just human nature. It's why "friends with benefits" very rarely ever works out when people try it out. One person (or both) will inevitably start viewing their sexual partner in a more romantic sense.
> 
> Oxytocin, serotonin and dopamine all get released when people are into each other/orgasming/having sex.
> 
> None of that makes your wife's affair ok, but sex really does include a "bonding" factor. So there is actually a biological and scientific aspect to it.


I believe that. But its bullsh*t in the sense that it doesn't excuse or explain her behavior.


----------



## Jellybeans

vellocet said:


> I believe that. But its bullsh*t in the sense that it doesn't excuse or explain her behavior.


I never said it "excused" her behavior.

But it does explain why she felt bonded to the OM.


----------



## GusPolinski

vellocet said:


> I believe that. But its bullsh*t in the sense that it doesn't excuse or explain her behavior.


It explains it, but it doesn't excuse it.


----------



## vellocet

thummper said:


> Kev, if it's AT ALL possible, don't abandon her now. It sounds as though she's really trying to make amends and restart her life with you and the rest of her family. Yes, she did something absolutely terrible, but if you can find it in your heart to forgive her, I don't think you'll regret it. I know some people think I'm a Pollyana, but marriage to me is worth fighting for. From your original post, it sounded as though you two had a fantastic relationship. Maybe you can get it back. I hope so for everyone's sake.


I could possibly go along with what you said. But she only stopped when the OMW blew the affair out of the water and then found out she meant nothing to OM. Otherwise she'd likely still be having sex with him and would likely have left Kev IF the OM did want to be with her permanently.

Now I'm not saying he shouldn't reconcile. I just don't want smoke blown up his back side. He needs to see this for what it is.


----------



## vellocet

Jellybeans said:


> I never said it "excused" her behavior.


Oh I know you weren't saying that. I'm just sayin'



GusPolinski said:


> It explains it, but it doesn't excuse it.


Actually it doesn't explain it either.

The premise was that if you have sex enough times that there is some sort of bond.

So it doesn't explain her behavior in the decision to cheat in the first place. It might explain her addiction to OM later, but not on the onset. Sorry, didn't clarify that earlier.


----------



## Q tip

Yah, like prostitutes, falling for every trick... (Or repeat customer) That explains, well, ER... Uh... Nothing.


----------



## Graywolf2

Jellybeans said:


> Oxytocin, serotonin and dopamine all get released when people are into each other/orgasming/having sex.
> 
> *None of that makes your wife's affair ok*, but sex really does include a "bonding" factor. So there is actually a biological and scientific aspect to it.


:iagree:

It’s thought that oxytosin helps mates bond in order to stay together and raise the children. It’s also released during breastfeeding and helps the new mom bond with the baby. 

*Again, it’s absolutely no excuse to cheat. Testosterone makes men more violent. That doesn’t give men a free pass to kill people and women who don't breastfeed still love their baby.*



Q tip said:


> Yah, like prostitutes, falling for every trick... (Or repeat customer) That explains, well, ER... Uh... Nothing.


You have to have an orgasm to release the oxytosin. Many women (except for my wife ) fake it.


----------



## Grayson

Jellybeans said:


> It's not bullsh*t. If people sleep together a lot, eventually one or both will end up catching feelings. This is just human nature. It's why "friends with benefits" very rarely ever works out when people try it out. One person (or both) will inevitably start viewing their sexual partner in a more romantic sense.
> 
> Oxytocin, serotonin and dopamine all get released when people are into each other/orgasming/having sex.
> 
> None of that makes your wife's affair ok, but sex really does include a "bonding" factor. So there is actually a biological and scientific aspect to it.


Indeed. I'm watching it happen to a friend currently. With her divorce filed but not final, she's all about a guy a coworker set her up with. He's still a secret to most, so their limited time together is mostly between the proverbial sheets. She's known him a whole 2 months, but within a week of meeting him, was saying he's "The One" and just this past weekend, was saying that she's contemplating marriage (even though they've not discussed the subject).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

vellocet said:


> Actually it doesn't explain it either.
> 
> The premise was that if you have sex enough times that there is some sort of bond.
> 
> So it doesn't explain her behavior in the decision to cheat in the first place. *It might explain her addiction to OM later, but not on the onset.* Sorry, didn't clarify that earlier.


Exactly correct.


----------



## RV9

OP, staying or leaving depends on what do you see in the horizon. Go by the gut feeling. You feel she'll do it again or she'd never get it, walk away. But make your decision not what was in the past but what you believe would happen in the future. 

Something I feel is good about the situation now is your WW was honest in the answers. She could have lied. Truth is always bitter. It takes a lot to withstand it. Your WW wasn't some angel without wings. She's a human of flesh and bones, frail, fallible. Take her off the pedestal you placed her on. Maybe then you might someday forgive her. It's important not for her but for yourself. 

Work on yourself. Let your WW work on herself. Marriage isn't the most important thing right now. You both as individuals are.


----------



## RV9

Q tip said:


> Yah, like prostitutes, falling for every trick... (Or repeat customer) That explains, well, ER... Uh... Nothing.


Prostitutes fall for money. Just saying.


----------



## wmn1

vellocet said:


> And during those 2 years was she still seeing him.
> 
> If so, then here is my take on it. She got to mess around with OM and have her fun, and keep H on the hook as the fall back plan.
> 
> IF that is what happened and she was still seeing OM for that time, then, if it were me, that would have to be dealt with before being completely open to R with her. How that would happen I don't know, but it would need to be dealt with.
> 
> Because she could have gotten this out of her system and is now all satisfied that she got her marriage back, but Kev still gets to deal with the mind movies.


I know. I had to ask. Just because she moved away doesn't mean it was a hard break up, it could have continued. But even more so, 2 years is a long time and a lot could have happened. If she was truly remorseful, she would have waited and kept her focus on Kev which appears to possibly be the case, hopefully. Judging by Kev's writing, I highly doubt he played the field while she was in the small apartment and they were seeking reconciliation. Otherwise he would be like Daniel's wife to an extent.

It would be an interesting question to have answered


----------



## harrybrown

So while she did what she wanted in her selfish experience, did she ever think about the family, or just her kids?

have her read the following, and I do not understand why a mother would do this to her kids.

https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/kids-are-resilient-and-7-other-lies-divorcing-107330654983.html

(not to discount your pain, but you need to see why she would do this to her kids)

She did this because she wanted to, she liked the sex and did not think about you getting stds. 

How would she feel about you having an A? She thinks it would something she could handle? 

How do you know she stopped with the OM? He could be flying in for dates at her place.


----------



## Dogbert

KingwoodKev said:


> Another thing she told me from her therapy session is that the shrink told her that her feelings for him may have not been real but her own biology betraying her. She said that when women have repeated sex with a man that a chemical process kicks off in them that makes them feel love for the man. WTF is that? So you're saying that if you F a woman enough times she has to love you? Sounds like egghead bullsh*t to me.


Dude why do you think that fvck buddies are hard to create and maintain? Someone usually falls in love - usually it's the woman.

She may have felt guilty the first time but the more she had sex with POSOM the more she emotionally attached to him until she believed she fell in love and believed it was real.

As Captain Obvious would say "It's not just the plumbing between the legs that is different but also what's between the ears."


----------



## tom67

Kev I suggest if you have not to casually date a few women before diving into r.
Like Turnera said get some ic also.
Good luck bro.


----------



## GusPolinski

Kev, regardless of all of the debate that's occurred/is occurring in each of your threads, given everything that you've provided, here is my takeaway...

_If you choose to not reconcile w/ your wife, it will be *THE* thing that you find yourself regretting on your deathbed._

There will be pain. Hell, you know this already. Confront it. Channel it. Use it to give you focus. Bend w/ it, but don't let it break you.

And no, your relationship w/ your wife can never been the same. Wounds heal, but they leave scars, and scarred flesh is never quite as intact as it was prior to being broken.

But the 99.99999% that you can have w/ your wife is far, far greater than the 100% that you could ever have w/ any other woman. This isn't a universal truth; it's not something that will apply to all BH's, or even all BS's. But, again, based on what you've contributed thus far, I think it's true of YOU.


----------



## Graywolf2

vellocet said:


> Because she could have gotten this out of her system and is now all satisfied that she got her marriage back, but Kev still gets to deal with the mind movies.


Once again, vellocet is House.

Wilson: People change, House.

House: Sure. They get older, ovaries start drying up, and nice guys like you look attractive again.


----------



## ConanHub

Midlife crisis excuse is just that, a bvllshyt excuse. She needs to get to the real reasons she justified destroying her marriage and family as well as her "friend's" family to satisfy her desire for OMs junk.

The answer will probably be ugly but truth can be worked with, smoke and mirrors can't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dogbert

vellocet said:


> Oh I know you weren't saying that. I'm just sayin'
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it doesn't explain it either.
> 
> The premise was that if you have sex enough times that there is some sort of bond.
> 
> So it doesn't explain her behavior in the decision to cheat in the first place. It might explain her addiction to OM later, but not on the onset. Sorry, didn't clarify that earlier.


Are you acquainted with the term *seduction*?


----------



## wmn1

vellocet said:


> I could possibly go along with what you said. But she only stopped when the OMW blew the affair out of the water and then found out she meant nothing to OM. Otherwise she'd likely still be having sex with him and would likely have left Kev IF the OM did want to be with her permanently.
> 
> Now I'm not saying he shouldn't reconcile. I just don't want smoke blown up his back side. He needs to see this for what it is.


:iagree:


----------



## Dogbert

ConanHub said:


> Midlife crisis excuse is just that, a bvllshyt excuse. She needs to get to the real reasons she justified destroying her marriage and family as well as her "friend's" family to satisfy her desire for OMs junk.
> 
> The answer will probably be ugly but truth can be worked with, smoke and mirrors can't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You seem to have the answers oh great one. Please bestow upon us, the unworthy rabble, your wisdom as to what "real reasons she justified destroying her marriage and family". Your humble servants await with bated breath your response.

:allhail:


----------



## sidney2718

lifeistooshort said:


> There's a fundamental character flaw in someone that's willing to run off with her friends hb and ruin the lives of everyone around her because she can't handle being 45. I get it, I'm 40 and having my own mid life issues but I'm trying to envision a circumstance where I'd f!ck up my friends lives by taking off with their husband.....i can't.


We are all different. But as has been said upthread, midlife crises are common. And the more sex is involved in the affair, the stronger the bond becomes for the woman. The man is different. As the affair goes on he gets more and more worried about where it is all going. It is no longer at the quick roll in the hay stage. This is the reality that needs to be dealt with. 



> I don't think you'll ever really know if you're number 1 because getting back with you also means getting her life back. If she had to sacrifice get back with you then you'd have a better idea. This really is a leap of faith.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think that the number 1 business and the plan B business are not important. Clearly if the WS did not want the BS at all, they'd have filed for divorce. The affair is an indication that the very strong bond with the BS still exists. How strong it is at any given moment might depend on what one had for breakfast.

Until DD, if there is one, the very fact that the WS comes home every day is another indication that the affair, powerful as it is, has not yet taken over the WS's mind. Sure, if the WS has moved out, then it is a different story. The marriage is busted and gone and the BS needs to get used to that.

After DD the WS has to make a choice (unless they decided to confess first which is itself a major choice). Emotions will be tense. In the present case the wandering wife said she'd run off with the affair partner because she couldn't stand the drama of what would happen if she chose her husband.

That is not a negative thing. That's a positive thing. If she didn't still have strong feelings for her husband she'd not have given a d**n about his reaction.

Of course, the BS doesn't want to hear this because the BS and the WS are on totally different pages.

And then there is the position of the affair partner. They have the same stresses and very often are still strongly connected to their own spouses. That's exactly what happened in this case, his connection to his wife won out and he dumped the wandering wife.

I think the OP should think about this. His wife has been through the mill on this and has been punished for two years for her behavior. I think the time has come for an attempt at reconciliation -- meaning that they both have problems to fix.


----------



## Dogbert

Mr Spock: *"Jim, madness has no purpose or reason. But it may have a goal.*"


----------



## RV9

GusPolinski said:


> Kev, regardless of all of the debate that's occurred/is occurring in each of your threads, given everything that you've provided, here is my takeaway...
> 
> _If you choose to not reconcile w/ your wife, it will be *THE* thing that you find yourself regretting on your deathbed._
> 
> There will be pain. Hell, you know this already. Confront it. Channel it. Use it to give you focus. Bend w/ it, but don't let it break you.
> 
> And no, your relationship w/ your wife can never been the same. Wounds heal, but they leave scars, and scarred flesh is never quite as intact as it was prior to being broken.
> 
> But the 99.99999% that you can have w/ your wife is far, far greater than the 100% that you could ever have w/ any other woman. This isn't a universal truth; it's not something that will apply to all BH's, or even all BS's. But, again, based on what you've contributed thus far, I think it's true of YOU.


Best post I've read of Gus...


----------



## sidney2718

Jellybeans said:


> It's not bullsh*t. If people sleep together a lot, eventually one or both will end up catching feelings. This is just human nature. It's why "friends with benefits" very rarely ever works out when people try it out. One person (or both) will inevitably start viewing their sexual partner in a more romantic sense.
> 
> Oxytocin, serotonin and dopamine all get released when people are into each other/orgasming/having sex.
> 
> None of that makes your wife's affair ok, but sex really does include a "bonding" factor. So there is actually a biological and scientific aspect to it.


Yup. That was recognized back in the stone age. Which is why one is not supposed to have sex until one is married.


----------



## sidney2718

ConanHub said:


> Midlife crisis excuse is just that, a bvllshyt excuse. She needs to get to the real reasons she justified destroying her marriage and family as well as her "friend's" family to satisfy her desire for OMs junk.
> 
> The answer will probably be ugly but truth can be worked with, smoke and mirrors can't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As I've said, the wife tells the truth, the husband doesn't believe it and insists that there is another deeper truth out there.

We may think that all psychologists are a$$holes, but it isn't true. The "midlife crisis" bit is well documented. The woman is well aware of it because of certain physiological changes that take place.

The action taken is to prove to one's self that it isn't all over yet, that they are still feminine and still seen as desirable by men. And that their bodies are not ugly and that there are still men who can excite them.

All one has to do for research is to take a quick spin through the threads (and not just CWI) to see the number of couples in trouble at mid-life.


----------



## ConanHub

Dogbert said:


> You seem to have the answers oh great one. Please bestow upon us, the unworthy rabble, your wisdom as to what "real reasons she justified destroying her marriage and family". Your humble servants await with bated breath your response.
> 
> :allhail:


LOL! She has to explore that. Since she admitted to a grass being greener outlook, she needs to explore why she believed that running away with a loser was worth destroying two families over. Obviously her reasons will not be good. Probably going to tie in with not wanting the responsibility that comes with being a wife and mother. Now that she is sitting in her own shyt, it seems obvious to her that it was not a good trade. But what if she hadn't been dumped?

She wanted to run off with him. Willing to trade her husband and children for that POS. That is a core issue in her character that she needs to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## loyallad

ConanHub said:


> Now that she is sitting in her own shyt, it seems obvious to her that it was not a good trade. But what if she hadn't been dumped?
> 
> She wanted to run off with him. Willing to trade her husband and children for that POS. That is a core issue in her character that she needs to change.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

I told my WW after D-day that if ********* POSOM truly "loved" my WW he would leave his own wife to be with my WW. The reason I have for this is the bullsh*t poems and love notes POSOM wrote to WW. All the "you are my everything" and "I love you every minute of every hour of every day" blah, blah blah... If he loved her so much then be willing to lose it all for the "love of your life". WW bought POSOM's crapola hook, line and sinker. What I don't get is WS having A with someone that is married and begin to think this is the one I really should have been with all along instead of old BS. Really? The person you are having an affair with is betraying their own spouse and this is the one you really were meant to be with? What?!? Just don't get it. I guess I'm the one not thinking straight.:scratchhead:


----------



## Dogbert

ConanHub said:


> LOL! She has to explore that. Since she admitted to a grass being greener outlook, she needs to explore why she believed that running away with a loser was worth destroying two families over. Obviously her reasons will not be good. Probably going to tie in with not wanting the responsibility that comes with being a wife and mother. Now that she is sitting in her own shyt, it seems obvious to her that it was not a good trade. But what if she hadn't been dumped?
> 
> She wanted to run off with him. Willing to trade her husband and children for that POS. That is a core issue in her character that she needs to change.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



*I agree and MLC does not excuse her betrayal - hell there are no excuses unless she was drugged unconscious and raped.

A drunk may be uninhibited to do the sh!t he wouldn't do while sober. It still doesn't excuse his choice to drive and get busted by the cops. The consequences he suffers as a result will make him find religion. He's court ordered to go alcoholism treatment classes to abstain from booze and address/resolve his issues that caused him to get drunk before he's allowed back on the road. But if he hadn't gotten caught, he would have continued driving drunk. 

More relevant question, has she learned to manage/overcome her fears which led to her stupid, dumba$$ choice to cheat?. *


----------



## vellocet

Dogbert said:


> You seem to have the answers oh great one. Please bestow upon us, the unworthy rabble, your wisdom as to what "real reasons she justified destroying her marriage and family". Your humble servants await with bated breath your response.
> 
> :allhail:


I know this wasn't directed to me, but I'll answer.


Answer: She wanted strange.

The whole "midlife crisis" thing is an attempt to mitigate responsibility in some small way. Because afterall, she was just human and it was the crisis, not her.


----------



## Dogbert

vellocet said:


> I know this wasn't directed to me, but I'll answer.
> 
> 
> Answer: She wanted strange.
> 
> The whole "midlife crisis" thing is an attempt to mitigate responsibility in some small way. Because afterall, she was just human and it was the crisis, not her.


Mitigation is in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> Yup. That was recognized back in the stone age. Which is why one is not supposed to have sex until one is married.


You don't understand. The idea of repeated sex, chemicals, and becoming addicted to the OM is not bullsh*t.

What is bullsh*t is that it does not explain her decision to cheat in the first place.


----------



## Q tip

turnera said:


> I've seen quite a few 'moral' and 'righteous' people who valued their marriage get sucked into affairs. It's not that black and white.


Kinda proves when the rubber hits the, er, road - they did not value the marriage, values or morals. When I was single and available, there were nearly weekly opportunities for me to fool around. Married or single ladies. I am not lying. No exaggeration at all. 

I valued myself, values, morals... and the one I would eventually marry to avoid screwing my life up. Married or single, values matter. I did not judge the ones who approached me, several I worked with. I just avoided the entire mess and inevitable consequences.

Sure, I had my share of GFs. Never cheated on any of them either.

Just because I got married did not give me a magical cloak of values and additional integrity... Perhaps that point might be considered. 

Or maybe I've been wrong about myself...


----------



## ConanHub

Dogbert said:


> Mitigation is in the eye of the beholder.


I think there is something in your eye.&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

vellocet said:


> You don't understand. The idea of repeated sex, chemicals, and becoming addicted to the OM is not bullsh*t.
> 
> What is bullsh*t is that it does not explain her decision to cheat in the first place.


Well, most of the time it's because she is getting attention from the OM and it FEELS GOOD.

Which is why I harp so much on people NOT taking their marriage for granted. Doing new stuff. Spending time together. Remaining blessed that your spouse wants you. GETTING and GIVING that attention which is the kickstart for most affairs.

Unless they're looking for an exit affair or just plain sex, MOST people who cheat never intended to. It was a look, then a conversation, then another conversation, then a flirt...all harmless, right? Until you find yourself anxiously awaiting the next opportunity to see that 'harmless' person who makes you feel good. And each step, you justify what it is you're doing so that you can get to do it again...all still 'harmless.' 

Most people have NO CLUE what it means to fall into an affair and most never see it coming. It's one step at a time until you start stepping over that line for just one more chance to get flirted with, and then you broaden what's 'harmless,' and then you broaden it again, until you reach the point where you have to say "I've GOT to have more of this" and you say screw it, I know I'm wrong but I NEED it and you go full on into the affair.

I will say, though, that in the last 10 years or so, I've seen an increase in the number of people, male and female, who simply don't CARE what the norms are and figure they're due whatever they want. Part of that wonderful Generation X Perfect Snowflake calamity we've created.


----------



## loyallad

Q tip said:


> Kinda proves when the rubber hits the, er, road - they did not value the marriage, values or morals. When I was single and available, there were nearly weekly opportunities for me to fool around. Married or single ladies. I am not lying. No exaggeration at all.
> 
> I valued myself, values, morals... and the one I would eventually marry to avoid screwing my life up. Married or single, values matter. I did not judge the ones who approached me, several I worked with. I just avoided the entire mess and inevitable consequences.
> 
> Sure, I had my share of GFs. Never cheated on any of them either.
> 
> Just because I got married did not give me a magical cloak of values and additional integrity... Perhaps that point might be considered.
> 
> Or maybe I've been wrong about myself...


:iagree:

How can one feel good about themself if you don't stand for something? Maybe I'm off track. I wouldn't cheat on my W and kinda expected the same from her. I remember that was in our marriage vows. I try to live my life that my word is my bond. Seems to be out of date now days. 

Lie, cheat, do what makes you feel good, do what's right for you. That seems to be the mantra for some in today's world.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Does the attention from other men feel less good if she is getting it from her husband or is she just judging that her husband is giving her better attention than the other guy? What happens if his attention is better, even though her husband's was the best she knew previously? Incendiary thoughts? Maybe, but I'm thinking that there is always and I mean always someone out there that is better. That is the opposite of soulmates. Sorry for challenging thinking, but it seems a logical conclusion. There has to be something that stops the constant vigil for something better. Wouldn't that be what is inside each of us and independent of outside influence?

Edit: I can agree, when it starts, it seems innocent and feels good. Unless it's a ONS involving alcohol or some drug, a mental disorder or handicap, the fact that it's a step at a time, belies the thought for me, that the participants never saw it coming. At some point, they knew. It was that tipping point which is the critical time when that, "something inside each of us", comes into play. Sometimes, that, "something", is just not there.


----------



## Q tip

2ntnuf said:


> Does the attention from other men feel less good if she is getting it from her husband or is she just judging that her husband is giving her better attention than the other guy? What happens if his attention is better, even though her husband's was the best she knew previously? Incendiary thoughts? Maybe, but I'm thinking that there is always and I mean always someone out there that is better. That is the opposite of soulmates. Sorry for challenging thinking, but it seems a logical conclusion. There has to be something that stops the constant vigil for something better. Wouldn't that be what is inside each of us and independent of outside influence?


Let's expand on that a bit.

Taller, better looking,

More money, bigger breasts
Thinner, more muscles

Better breath, does not snore

Nicer car, healthier

Virgin...

Reasons are endless, to the less mature, lesser developed mind. Or could it a parent-less upbringing. Valueless upbringing. I mean, who influences behavior the first 15-18 years anyway. Government?


----------



## Grayson

2ntnuf said:


> Does the attention from other men feel less good if she is getting it from her husband or is she just judging that her husband is giving her better attention than the other guy? What happens if his attention is better, even though her husband's was the best she knew previously? Incendiary thoughts? Maybe, but I'm thinking that there is always and I mean always someone out there that is better. That is the opposite of soulmates. Sorry for challenging thinking, but it seems a logical conclusion. There has to be something that stops the constant vigil for something better. Wouldn't that be what is inside each of us and independent of outside influence?


This is something my wife has tried to explain to me after her affairs (EA and PA). It's akin to a high...it's not that the attention from the outside source is "better," just that it's different. It serves to boost and validate some sense of a lacking self esteem...that someone who isn't "supposed to" see them that way does. And it takes more and more to get that same "high" as that attention becomes routine. It's a pattern she can now look back and recognize in her past, and it's a behavior that she sees very clearly in the friend I mentioned earlier.

What keeps someone from repeating if they choose to R? It comes down to self-awareness and willpower. They have to recognize what they thought was missing and were using that "high" to "self-medicate" as it were. In my wife's case, while she self-diagnosed as a sex/love addict, her psychiatrist concluded that it was all tied into manias that are part of her bipolar disorder. Our friend seems to display those same traits (with a family history of bipolar), but is not diagnosed and claims that these changes in behavior are just part of "learning and liking who I really am." And then, of course, there are just those who either can't or won't summon the willpower to resist.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

Q tip said:


> Let's expand on that a bit.
> 
> Taller, better looking,
> 
> More money, bigger breasts
> Thinner, more muscles
> 
> Better breath, does not snore
> 
> Nicer car, healthier
> 
> Virgin...
> 
> Reasons are endless, to the less mature, lesser developed mind. Or could it a parent-less upbringing. Valueless upbringing. I mean, *who influences behavior the first 15-18 years anyway. Government?*


The most influential people in my life were:

0 - 5 ~ parents/siblings, mostly one older brother and my sister

6 - 14 ~ Catholic church officials/parents/Catholic grade school teachers and public school teachers

14 - 18 ~ Friends?not sure if they really were/girlfriend(first wife)and her parents/my parents were last/siblings almost not at all/Teachers at public schools should be after girlfriend and her parents

Don't know how to comment on the rest of your post. Hey, at least I'm being honest.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Grayson said:


> This is something my wife has tried to explain to me after her affairs (EA and PA). It's akin to a high...*it's not that the attention from the outside source is "better," just that it's different.* It serves to boost and validate some sense of a lacking self esteem...that someone who isn't "supposed to" see them that way does. And it takes more and more to get that same "high" as that attention becomes routine. It's a pattern she can now look back and recognize in her past, and it's a behavior that she sees very clearly in the friend I mentioned earlier.
> 
> *What keeps someone from repeating if they choose to R? It comes down to self-awareness and willpower.* They have to recognize what they thought was missing and were using that "high" to "self-medicate" as it were. In my wife's case, while she self-diagnosed as a sex/love addict, her psychiatrist concluded that it was all tied into manias that are part of her bipolar disorder. Our friend seems to display those same traits (with a family history of bipolar), but is not diagnosed and claims that these changes in behavior are just part of "learning and liking who I really am." And then, of course, there are just those who either can't or won't summon the willpower to resist.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





> it's not that the attention from the outside source is "better," just that it's different.


I agree, since we are all different as individual men and women. Thing is, I had opportunities and each of them made me feel good and each was different from the one I was with. Are you saying that those of us who did not chose to pursue our strong feelings of validation in a different manner we were used to getting are faulty? I know you are not, but it is what I see as the conclusion.



> What keeps someone from repeating if they choose to R? It comes down to self-awareness and willpower.


But, isn't that what that, "something inside", in each of us is? If it took a lifetime to learn or certain social influences over time, isn't it then, nearly impossible for someone of the opposite nature to obtain? 

If it is something that is a part of our biological makeup, or genetics, isn't it impossible to learn?

If more than seventy percent of second marriages fail, what chance does a reconciliation have even if with a first marriage? You see, that marriage is over when one of the spouses decides to stray. So now, even a first marriage must be considered as a second marriage with handicaps greater than originally there. It only makes sense that the risk is much higher. 

The rest of your post I'm in agreement with. I am just challenging thinking here, not trying to argue.


----------



## Sports Fan

I think her sudden realisation of her stuff up has not come from therapy but rather from the fact that she was kicked out of the family home, lost all contact with her children, and the other man had abandoned her to boot.

Dont believe everything she tells you supposedly happened at therapy. She is only feeding you what she thinks you want to hear, so she can get back in your good graces, and jump back on the gravy train you once provided for her.

Reconciliation is your call alone and must be done under your terms only.


----------



## Graywolf2

KingwoodKev said:


> I've been reading your responses about her shrink telling her that repeated sex with OM actually released chemicals in her that cause her to "love" him even though her intellectual mind did not. When I read someone say that her repeated orgasms with him released those chemicals I feel like going F'ING CRAZY RIGHT NOW!!! I'm not ready to accept her orgasms with OM. That puts me right back to square 1.


She told you what her therapist said because that information would make her feel better if the situation were reversed. As a group women are more bothered by an EA and men are more bothered by a PA.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/242641-men-vs-women-pa-vs-ea.html

For her it would be comforting if you really didn’t love the OW and it was just a hormone fantasy induced by sex. She didn’t realize that the information would mean the opposite for you.

The OM correctly thought that the following might give his wife some comfort. 



KingwoodKev said:


> I was actually offended for my wife's "honor" when the OM told his wife she meant nothing to him and was just an easy piece of ass.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Graywolf2 said:


> She told you what her therapist said because that information would make her feel better if the situation were reversed. As a group women are more bothered by an EA and men are more bothered by a PA.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/242641-men-vs-women-pa-vs-ea.html
> 
> For her it would be comforting if you really didn’t love the OW and it was a hormone induced fantasy.


So, you don't know if it is true or not? It could have been said to minimize and manipulate?

Isn't this why the wayward spouse, when the betrayed spouse is in the position to require this, needs to work their butt off to get to the point where the faithful can be sure it's worth the effort of looking at their own failings, for the wayward spouse? Otherwise, I think the faithful just gets the counseling to heal and make sure anything is taken care of for someone who may be better.(reference back to former post about _different_)

Either that, or you just accept that what they are saying is true and give it a go. Hey, what the heck, it's only a marriage. They're plentiful.


----------



## ThePheonix

As you read through these post dawg, remember my post on your other thread.



ThePheonix said:


> *Unfortunately my man, you'll never be able to find out the answer to that one. * You'd actually been in a position of knowing if the other guy would have offered to ride off into the sunset with her. She probably doesn't know the answer herself if she would have faced a hard choice and had to make a decision one way or the other. The bottom line Dawg, is that you're going to have to throw the dice, one way or the other, on this one.


----------



## Dogbert

ConanHub said:


> I think there is something in your eye.��
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:lol:

Yeah, my contact lense.


----------



## ConanHub

Dogbert said:


> :lol:
> 
> Yeah, my contact lense.


I knew it!!!&#55357;&#56841;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dogbert




----------



## 2ntnuf

Explanation vs. Excuse



> In summary:
> 
> Excuses deny responsibility.
> Explanations allow for responsibility to be acknowledged, and the situation to be explored and understood.
> Excuses come from feelings of defensiveness that pop up when someone is feeling attacked.
> Explanations occur when someone wants to be understood.
> 
> When a person brings up a problem with someone — a boss, employee, friend or family member — how the concern is phrased can cause a positive or negative reaction. If the first speaker carefully describes the situation without assigning blame, it’s more likely that the listener will not offer excuses. Instead, the two will be able to discuss the incident calmly and without accusations. Without accusations, there is less need for excuses. Explanations can clarify the problem, and the two can become a team working toward a common goal.
> Excuse or Explanation: Is There a Difference? | Sorting Out Your Life


There are quite a few definitions. This seems like it fits for relationship problems. Seems like each is for a different scenario. It gets a little confusing. This is just a suggestion. Make up your own mind.


----------



## manticore

KingwoodKev said:


> Another thing she told me from her therapy session is that the shrink told her that her feelings for him may have not been real but her own biology betraying her. She said that when women have repeated sex with a man that a chemical process kicks off in them that makes them feel love for the man. WTF is that? So you're saying that if you F a woman enough times she has to love you? Sounds like egghead bullsh*t to me.


Kev as many have told you this is true, but what they are not mentioning is that is a *half true*, this is what people normally would call the FOG, I call it the dopamine fog, and is just not something that happens during affairs is something that happens during the beggining of almost all the relationships, a great force that glues people and allows what we call the "honey moon period" were the cherished one can do no evil at their eyes. but you are forgetting something, this is not what it is important what is important is how she reached this point?. 

See just as the alcoholic that while being drunk drives over elementary kids and don't even remember doing it, yes, his state affected his normal bahaviour a did something that in his 5 senses would never do but that is no important, what is important is that he allowed himself to get at that state where the incident happened.

Just like the drug addict that goes and steal to maintain his addiction and in a crime ends killing an innocent, yes, maybe the clean version of himself would have been a model citizen but what matters is that he allowed himself to get to that state in his life.

just like the cheater that allows himself to be mesmerized by a seductress and leaves his family in missery and spends his life savings and all material posessions in a woman who just wants his money, yes he may come to his senses later as he maybe was in the fog, but that does not matter, what matters is why he allowed himself to bond with her and later why he had sex with her that first time.

the same if for your wife Kev, we have 2 choices and neither is good:

1.-* she wanted to get frisky have a sexual adventure* with a man and then after many sexual sessions she developed those "feelings for him".

2.- *she was already "in love with him"* at the moment she slept wiht him the first time and the sex just reforced it.

what matters is not the fog, but how she allowed herself to get to the point where that happened, and neither of the routes is a consolation.

I am telling you this because you can not walk into R creating excuses that later in the process will crash when you reflect on them.


----------



## larry.gray

Jellybeans said:


> It's not bullsh*t. If people sleep together a lot, eventually one or both will end up catching feelings. This is just human nature. It's why "friends with benefits" very rarely ever works out when people try it out. One person (or both) will inevitably start viewing their sexual partner in a more romantic sense.


That would make sense if she accidentally fell on his rod and then came under the spell of oxytocin, serotonin and dopamine because it was so good.

But barring that scenario, she got into that position by having some level of emotional involvement with the OM first. Most affairs aren't a FWB setup. Especially for the woman.


----------



## Dogbert

Anybody ever hear of "the frog in the gradually heating pot of water"? Read Dr Shirley Glass' book "Not Just Friends" explains how affairs develop.


----------



## turnera

Many people are trying to tell you that your wife is evil, selfish, and forever wanting to please herself at your expense. Because she cheated. 

I'm trying to explain that many people cheat and are irrevocably changed from the fallout and choose to follow a right path after that.

Only you can determine if the woman you love is worth one more chance.


----------



## vellocet

Dogbert said:


> Are you acquainted with the term *seduction*?


Yes, but that has nothing to do with the idea that she became obsessed with the OM because of repeated sexual encounters. I'm saying that if the therapist is telling her that she is getting a high from repeated sexual encounters with the OM, that does not explain her decision to F him the first time.

In other words, the therapist's explanation doesn't hold water with her decision to cheat.


----------



## Grayson

2ntnuf said:


> I agree, since we are all different as individual men and women. Thing is, I had opportunities and each of them made me feel good and each was different from the one I was with. Are you saying that those of us who did not chose to pursue our strong feelings of validation in a different manner we were used to getting are faulty? I know you are not, but it is what I see as the conclusion.


Not at all. If anyone is "faulty," it's those whose proverbial circuit breaker that cuts off pursuit of that "high" is either lacking or doesn't work.



> But, isn't that what that, "something inside", in each of us is? If it took a lifetime to learn or certain social influences over time, isn't it then, nearly impossible for someone of the opposite nature to obtain?
> 
> If it is something that is a part of our biological makeup, or genetics, isn't it impossible to learn?
> 
> If more than seventy percent of second marriages fail, what chance does a reconciliation have even if with a first marriage? You see, that marriage is over when one of the spouses decides to stray. So now, even a first marriage must be considered as a second marriage with handicaps greater than originally there. It only makes sense that the risk is much higher.
> 
> The rest of your post I'm in agreement with. I am just challenging thinking here, not trying to argue.


I wouldn't say it's impossible to learn. It would more be a matter of whether or not one chooses to learn and/or apply what they've learned. It can be done...I've seen it. But the first step is acknowledging what happened, how they responded, and making a conscious decision to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

turnera said:


> Many people are trying to tell you that your wife is evil, selfish, and forever wanting to please herself at your expense. Because she cheated.


Not "just" because she cheated.

She did not end the affair on her own....OMW blew it out of the water.

Still don't have an answer to this, but she was kicked out for 2 years and I suspect that she was still seeing this guy for some amount of time after being kicked out and only did it end when OM dumped her and she then found out she was only "a piece of ass" to him.

Would like clarification on the above, but if we found out the timeline of just when the affair was officially over with regards to her moving out, that would be very telling, one way or the other.


----------



## turnera

That doesn't mean she's evil. It just means she was in the middle of it when it ended. You don't assume someone is forever evil and unredeemable just because they didn't end the affair. Most people in affairs are not CAPABLE of ending them because they're getting such a high from the contact, just like a drug addict. Getting the next hit consumes you. Which is why we recommend EXPOSING affairs so that the choice of ending it is taken out of the cheater's hands - since they usually can't.


----------



## LongWalk

Read RoadScholar's thread.

By the way, two years is a long time to go without sex.

You can have sex with you estranged wife and tell her up front that you are just doing it to get your rocks off.

No matter how emotional banging her might make you feel, pretend you are just having fun. Treat it like a light hearted exWW with benefits.


----------



## ConanHub

She certainly was selfish and evil to destroy two families for her gratification.

If she has really taken a hard look at herself and seen whatever ugly trait/s in her allowed her decisions and has worked to change herself in those areas, then she may not be selfish and evil anymore.

Pointing her finger at any crisis as cause for her dysfunction won't help her change her flaws.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Doesn't sound to me like she's doing that.


----------



## ConanHub

turnera said:


> Doesn't sound to me like she's doing that.


I'm still on the fence about it. Some of what her therapist is doing causes concern.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

turnera said:


> That doesn't mean she's evil.


Never said she was. Point is, if he wants to reconcile, then he needs to deal with it without people trying to blow smoke up his ass. If he thinks she came back to him for any other reason than the affair was exposed and OM didn't have the feelings for her she thought, then his R will be one sided and he is setting himself up for further pain in the future.

If he wants to reconcile, then he needs to see it for what it is and not fool himself thinking that she came back to him for any other reasons.





> It just means she was in the middle of it when it ended.


Is that all? Well shoot.




> You don't assume someone is forever evil and unredeemable just because they didn't end the affair.


You haven't read what I posted in this thread. I already said in another post that I'm not saying he shouldn't reconcile, just open his eyes to the way things came down, consider the timeline, and don't accept bullsh*t.


----------



## vellocet

Kev, it would really help to know after you kicked her out if she kept seeing him and if it only ended because OM ended it or when she realized he only wanted her as a side piece.


----------



## snerg

Wolfman1968 said:


> Well, it may be common, but Midlife Crisis doesn't mean she became mentally incompetent.
> 
> She would have still been expected to control herself against committing murder, assault, fraud, even shoplifting. She is still considered to know right from wrong. Do you think "Midlife Crisis" would be accepted by a judge if she walked out of a store with a piece of jewelry in her pocket? So why is it accepted for a betrayal of a life partner?
> 
> No, there is a second reason at play, here. From her confession, it sounds like you were Plan B, and she would have left with the OM if he would have had her.
> 
> As I said, you have to decide for yourself, but I think I deserve more than that. I deserve to be #1 in her heart, not First Runner-Up. I couldn't live like that.


This is the truth.

Read this.

Print it out.

Tape it to your fidge, mirror, the ceiling, where ever.

When ever you start to think to rug sweep, read this over and over.


----------



## turnera

vellocet said:


> If he thinks she came back to him for any other reason than the affair was exposed and OM didn't have the feelings for her she thought, then his R will be one sided and he is setting himself up for further pain in the future.


You have no way of knowing that. And it contradicts what she's since done.


----------



## vellocet

turnera said:


> You have no way of knowing that. And it contradicts what she's since done.


It doesn't contradict at all. If he comes back and says that she continued with him after he kicked her out ONLY to want to come back to him once OM dumped her and she found out he was only a piece to him, then she used him as plan B.

If he says that after the affair blew up that it ended immediately, then I'd tell him to ease into it. Hold her accountable and make sure she isn't giving you a load of bunk. Reconcile, but cautiously.

So I'll wait to hear from Kev. Since he desires R, I hope for his sake that she didn't continue seeing him until finding out she meant nothing to OM. For his sake I really hope so.


----------



## Suspecting2014

It may explain a lot, but as long as an explanation is not a justification means nothing.
As it doesnt justify nothing is point less to answer why in this way.

MLC put her in a weak place where she was tempted and went for it. Plus she took her marriage for granted at the beginning, then as she fell for OM was willing to run away with him.

In a few words:

MLC made her weak but she made the choice to cheat.

ISO, KK needs to accept her as a human that can make mistakes as everybody, Realize she is not the woman he taught anymore.

He doesn't hate her but he hates what she has done. He only cant recognize her after what she has done, she is not the woman he married...


----------



## Mr.Fisty

I see it as her losing her addiction, and hitting rock bottom. Face it, she was in the infatuation stage, and some of the effects is like cocaine on the brain. She did make herself vulnerable, and she did place herself in that situation. She felt like something was missing from her life, and the OM gave her the emotional and excitement she craved. Those issues are on her to work on, and she has to take responsibility for that. It is like an alcoholic hitting rock bottom when their family leaves them, and then they have a moment of clarity. Sex is the second highest releaser of oxytocin, the bonding hormone. Oxytocin is responsible for the feeling of love, so given enough sex, someone can fall in love. Studies have shown prostitutes falling in love with clients from just sexual contact. The number one releaser of oxytocin is child birth.

Her actions are telling a different story. People have to realize how strong the infatuation stage can be. There have been stories of people killing themselves over their infatuation. When I was in high school, I remember a story about a high school boy who killed himself because his gf dumped him.

You have to see if you can forgive the addict or not. She is not a remorseless cheater. If she was, she would go on looking for another man. She is willing to put in the hard work. She did make a bad choice. It is not right or wrong if you do not give her a second chance. She may have burned too many bridges for you to move on with her. That is something you will have to figure out when you take the time to heal.


----------



## Suspecting2014

snerg said:


> This is the truth.
> 
> Read this.
> 
> Print it out.
> 
> Tape it to your fidge, mirror, the ceiling, where ever.
> 
> When ever you start to think to rug sweep, read this over and over.


Totally agree:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## 2ntnuf

Grayson said:


> Not at all. If anyone is "faulty," it's those whose proverbial circuit breaker that cuts off pursuit of that "high" is either lacking or doesn't work.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say it's impossible to learn. It would more be a matter of whether or not one chooses to learn and/or apply what they've learned. *It can be done...I've seen it. But the first step is acknowledging what happened, how they responded, and making a conscious decision to change.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I saw it once and it wasn't the first choice of the BS. I agree there has to be change and it will have to occur on both sides, no matter who was wrong.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Mr.Fisty said:


> *I see it as her losing her addiction, and hitting rock bottom. Face it, she was in the infatuation stage, and some of the effects is like cocaine on the brain.* She did make herself vulnerable, and she did place herself in that situation. She felt like something was missing from her life, and the OM gave her the emotional and excitement she craved. Those issues are on her to work on, and she has to take responsibility for that. It is like an alcoholic hitting rock bottom when their family leaves them, and then they have a moment of clarity. Sex is the second highest releaser of oxytocin, the bonding hormone. Oxytocin is responsible for the feeling of love, so given enough sex, someone can fall in love. Studies have shown prostitutes falling in love with clients from just sexual contact. The number one releaser of oxytocin is child birth.


Any adiction begins with trying. She tryed OM and got adicted, but she chose to try at the beggining taking her marriage fro granted. She made the first move!!



Mr.Fisty said:


> *Her actions are telling a different story.  People have to realize how strong the infatuation stage can be. There have been stories of people killing themselves over their infatuation. When I was in high school, I remember a story about a high school boy who killed himself because his gf dumped him.
> 
> You have to see if you can forgive the addict or not. She is not a remorseless cheater. If she was, she would go on looking for another man. She is willing to put in the hard work. She did make a bad choice. It is not right or wrong if you do not give her a second chance. She may have burned too many bridges for you to move on with her. That is something you will have to figure out when you take the time to heal.*


*

Totally agree that this is very strong, but as long as none can not use it in court to justify a crime, she cant use it to justify her affair.

Oxytocin and dopamine are the way nature bound humans, is the way we are made, this is the same exact way KK and his wife fell in love first time then caring and true love act to made it last. This is great explanation but not a justification.*


----------



## 2ntnuf

She would have crushed the affair and the AP herself and exposed to everyone including her husband if she realized she made a mistake and it wasn't exposed by someone else. She's choosing to follow responsibility now, not her heart. That is the giant issue in all of this and should be the most important thing, since that is why she left him for the AP. She ended up having feelings for someone else over time. In some cases, if a woman loses feelings for a man, she looks for someone else. In some cases, if a woman finds feelings for someone else through an EA, she sleeps with him. Some women stop themselves no matter what they feel and address why they have those feelings and if they are appropriate for someone other than their spouse.

Edit: It's the most important thing in this case, imo, because she is the type of person that chooses to follow feelings rather than commitment or good sense. This is assuming that Kev really did do nothing to drive her love of him away. No one knows for sure and I have my doubts that anyone is completely innocent.


----------



## Grayson

Suspecting2014 said:


> Any adiction begins with trying. She tryed OM and got adicted, but she chose to try at the beggining taking her marriage fro granted. She made the first move!!
> 
> 
> 
> Totally agree that this is very strong, but as long as none can not use it in court to justify a crime, she cant use it to justify her affair.
> 
> Oxytocin and dopamine are the way nature bound humans, is the way we are made, this is the same exact way KK and his wife fell in love first time then caring and true love act to made it last. This is great explanation but not a justification.


Doesn't seem to me that anyone here is using as a justification, just, as you point out, an explanation. And it's from explanations that people are able to form further ideas and plans to proceed.

As I've mentioned, I'm watching a friend to through this infatuation stage and not seeing it for what it is, and also with a strong possibility of another chemical/mental factor heightening it. But it's going to take hitting that same rock bottom for any decision to ask for help or to seek change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr.Fisty

Suspecting2014 said:


> Any adiction begins with trying. She tryed OM and got adicted, but she chose to try at the beggining taking her marriage fro granted. She made the first move!!
> 
> 
> 
> Totally agree that this is very strong, but as long as none can not use it in court to justify a crime, she cant use it to justify her affair.
> 
> Oxytocin and dopamine are the way nature bound humans, is the way we are made, this is the same exact way KK and his wife fell in love first time then caring and true love act to made it last. This is great explanation but not a justification.



Nor did I make it a justification. It was her choice, her poor boundaries. Same goes with an alcoholic, they chose to drink, they let it get out of hand. I personally did not get back with my ex, because I did not get over it. The experience killed my love and attraction for her. For me, to many bridges were burned. Everyone actions is on them, but he has to figure out if he can live with it. He has to decide if he can fogive her or not. My father was an alcoholic at one point. I wished back in the past that she did leave him, but when she was about to, he made the changes to become a better person. She decided to forgive him, and I got a more loving father after a while. Even knowing what I know now, I still would not hold it against her if she did. He did choose the alcohol over the family for a while until he hit rock bottom. I was a child of 5 to 9 being beat by a wooden pole, like a broom, being belted, punched and kicked as a child from his father. I had to learn to forgive him also. I did hate him for a long time to, and he did change and I did learn to love the new him. When he died, I felt grief, because I only had five or six years of his best. I felt cheated. I came to understand that he came from an abusive home, but his father did improve like he did. He was a disfunctional man. I had to go through therapy to break the anger cycle.


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## Suspecting2014

Grayson said:


> Suspecting2014 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any adiction begins with trying. She tryed OM and got adicted, but she chose to try at the beggining taking her marriage fro granted. She made the first move!!
> 
> 
> 
> Totally agree that this is very strong, but as long as none can not use it in court to justify a crime, she cant use it to justify her affair.
> 
> Oxytocin and dopamine are the way nature bound humans, is the way we are made, this is the same exact way KK and his wife fell in love first time then caring and true love act to made it last. This is great explanation but not a justification.
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't seem to me that anyone here is using as a justification, just, as you point out, an explanation. And it's from explanations that people are able to form further ideas and plans to proceed.
> 
> As I've mentioned, I'm watching a friend to through this infatuation stage and not seeing it for what it is, and also with a strong possibility of another chemical/mental factor heightening it. But it's going to take hitting that same rock bottom for any decision to ask for help or to seek change.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

Exactly!

What i am trying to say is that KK wont get an answer to why that forced her to have an affair.

There are not biological, quimical or magical answer that can justify her actions so KK must accept that the answer to why is as simple as "be cause i wanted".

Of course enviroment, MLC, etc played a key role to upgrade a mistake, the first move ( her choise), into an blow minding affair, capable of destroy her family and her friends marriage.

As you said it may help him undestad the intencity and the things she was willing to do for him, but never why


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## Grayson

Suspecting2014 said:


> Exactly!
> 
> What i am trying to say is that KK wont get an answer to why that forced her to have an affair.
> 
> There are not biological, quimical or magical answer that can justify her actions so KK must accept that the answer to why is as simple as "be cause i wanted".
> 
> Of course enviroment, MLC, etc played a key role to upgrade a mistake, the first move ( her choise), into an blow minding affair, capable of destroy her family and her friends marriage.
> 
> As you said it may help him undestad the intencity and the things she was willing to do for him, but never why


Maybe not the "why" of taking that first step, but possibly the "why" (and "how") of the way things progressed and escalated, and why she behaved the way she did after taking that first, conscious step.

ETA: I could go into excruciating detail about my wife's history that fostered a mindset of seeking validation and using sex as both a means of getting that and exerting control over herself and others. At the end of the day, she chose to pursue that "high" that she got from outside validation, but her biology and psychology helped to form the way she did so. There may not be an answer other than "I wanted to" when determining why she took the path she did...but the rest of it can answer the question of why the path was shaped the way it was. (If that makes sense.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf

And that's why I think he has to see that same intensity of emotion from her that shows she wants, needs, desires to be with him over all other men. I don't think that's possible after the bonding that took place, which has been so eloquently described. 

I do not think it is possible to regain that lost love. I do think it is possible for her to resign herself to the marriage oath and the responsibilities that go along. I don't think she can ever really deeply have those feelings of love she once had. She can only show that she is dedicated to her word by doing things which make Kev believe she loves him. In other words, I don't think it is possible to do those things out of the love in her heart now or ever again. 

The difference would be if she turned the AP in and broke it off after pursuing her Kev. That would absolutely show what she felt inside. It is gone. 

I believe, she can get some sort of love feelings back for him, but it will take a long time and be more like what one might feel for a friend, brother, or first cousin. Neural pathways have been formed with the other man. They can not be removed. Dopamine and other love drugs have been connected with those memories. Kev can only add memories of their own. Better memories? I don't think, only different. That may be good enough. 


Love then, would be what most call mature. It's not what most think of when they initially find that so called "one". That may be enough. Making love might not be possible. Even that might be enough.


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## lordmayhem

I've actually avoided clicking on this thread just in case it was someone trolling. With that said, its pretty interesting to say the least.

I won't rehash what others have said because just about everyone is making good points and it would do no good for me just to repeat what someone else has already said.

But I do have some questions about the limbo situation here.


D-Day was 2 years ago
OMW exposed the affair to the OP
Affair was an LTA - I consider a year or more to be long term because that involves all holidays, birthdays, much sex over the course of a year
WW trickle truthed
WW minimizes the sex - that it was dirty, yet came back again, again, again, & again
Affair was exposed to everyone
OMW divorced OM
WW quit her job
WW lives in an apartment separate from the family

Is that everything in a nutshell? I'm curious KingwoodKev, does she just not want to work or did you tell her not to work? Is it an expensive apartment? Do you give her a stipend for food and utilities? 

You are clearly in the Anger stage and have been there for some time. I would say that I was in the Anger stage for quite some time too, even past the 2 year mark. The mind movies and other things continue to trigger you. Thing is, you can't keep this up forever. You have to leave Limbo sometime. Either you decide to R or you divorce her. There's no shame in divorcing her because some people are not made for R.

And going into R doesn't mean you just trust her completely and forget everything, because that would be rugsweeping. You help her rebuild trust (which will never be 100%), but enough to R. And that means her being completely transparent and you monitoring her activities, computer, phone, etc.

This doesn't mean you will be doing so forever. Eventually, as you continue to monitor and find NOTHING, and she continues to do the heavy lifting, you will find yourself getting bored with the monitoring and doing it less and less. Eventually you reach the point that you can't remember when the last time you monitored was. That's how monitoring helps you heal and rebuild trust. 

Also, have you thought about seeking IC yourself and possibly get on meds that would help stabilize your emotions?


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## Suspecting2014

Grayson said:


> Suspecting2014 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly!
> 
> What i am trying to say is that KK wont get an answer to why that forced her to have an affair.
> 
> There are not biological, quimical or magical answer that can justify her actions so KK must accept that the answer to why is as simple as "be cause i wanted".
> 
> Of course enviroment, MLC, etc played a key role to upgrade a mistake, the first move ( her choise), into an blow minding affair, capable of destroy her family and her friends marriage.
> 
> As you said it may help him undestad the intencity and the things she was willing to do for him, but never why
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe not the "why" of taking that first step, but possibly the "why" (and "how") of the way things progressed and escalated, and why she behaved the way she did after taking that first, conscious step.
> 
> ETA: I could go into excruciating detail about my wife's history that fostered a mindset of seeking validation and using sex as both a means of getting that and exerting control over herself and others. At the end of the day, she chose to pursue that "high" that she got from outside validation, but her biology and psychology helped to form the way she did so. There may not be an answer other than "I wanted to" when determining why she took the path she did...but the rest of it can answer the question of why the path was shaped the way it was. (If that makes sense.)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

Yes it does!

That is exactly what I mean.

Sorry english is not my first language


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## Q tip

Players know how to sweep a lady off her feet and create that "desire". Rekindle feelings real life has dried out. 

He places her back into the fairy tale land of fun, hot sex, rainbows and not real life of bills, husbands, dirty dishes, cleaning, stress, mortgage, kids...

Perhaps she has no way to excuse the temptation but say I don't know what happened. But I liked it lots.


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## vellocet

Grayson said:


> Doesn't seem to me that anyone here is using as a justification, just, as you point out, an explanation. And it's from explanations that people are able to form further ideas and plans to proceed.


I think we have established that it explains her addiction to the OM. Not her decision to cheat in the first place.


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## sidney2718

Sports Fan said:


> I think her sudden realisation of her stuff up has not come from therapy but rather from the fact that she was kicked out of the family home, lost all contact with her children, and the other man had abandoned her to boot.
> 
> Dont believe everything she tells you supposedly happened at therapy. She is only feeding you what she thinks you want to hear, so she can get back in your good graces, and jump back on the gravy train you once provided for her.
> 
> Reconciliation is your call alone and must be done under your terms only.


Please don't say this. You've forgotten to mention that SHE must want reconciliation too or nothing will work.


----------



## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> Kev, it would really help to know after you kicked her out if she kept seeing him and if it only ended because OM ended it or when she realized he only wanted her as a side piece.


I believe, subject to correction, that the OM's W discovered the affair and tossed the OM out. The OM, trying to keep his wife, dropped Kev's wife like a hot potato. Meanwhile the OM's W notified Kev about the affair with proof. That led to DD with Kev's wife finally admitting the affair.

Now the OM and his wife are divorced, Kev's W is living in purgatory (as he named it), a small apartment near where Kev lives.

Kev's W and the OM have had a chance since the OM's divorce to get it on again. But nothing Kev has said indicates that they have. I don't recall him saying anything explicit, but he has said that her behavior has been exemplary after DD.

I agree with you that we need to get all this nailed down as it is important.


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## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> I believe, subject to correction, that the OM's W discovered the affair and tossed the OM out. The OM, trying to keep his wife, dropped Kev's wife like a hot potato. Meanwhile the OM's W notified Kev about the affair with proof. That led to DD with Kev's wife finally admitting the affair.
> 
> Now the OM and his wife are divorced, Kev's W is living in purgatory (as he named it), a small apartment near where Kev lives.
> 
> Kev's W and the OM have had a chance since the OM's divorce to get it on again. But nothing Kev has said indicates that they have. I don't recall him saying anything explicit, but he has said that her behavior has been exemplary after DD.
> 
> I agree with you that we need to get all this nailed down as it is important.


If that timeline is correct, aside from the fact it took the OMW to stop the affair and the OM to dump her, as she didn't stop it on her own, then I'd have a little more hope for R. But if I were him I'd still be very suspicious of her motives for wanting to get back together...because as he said, she admitted she'd have left him if the OM said he wanted to be with her.

So I have to wonder in the 2 years she was out of the house, what was she doing? Still talking to the OM? Was it truly over at that point? I dare say did she go out and have fun with any other men?
That is speculation, but something tells me she didn't refrain completely from gratification in those 2 years. Kev is being rather hush on that part of it.


----------



## sidney2718

Suspecting2014 said:


> Oxytocin and dopamine are the way nature bound humans, is the way we are made, this is the same exact way KK and his wife fell in love first time then caring and true love act to made it last. This is great explanation but not a justification.


The "chemical high" wears off for a married couple. It lasts about three years. The reason for it seems to be that three years of rabbit sex should leave the wife pregnant. And now there isn't time for sex three times a day. There isn't even time for sleeping. And so a different dynamic comes into play. One lives for the family, one shares a life. You know all her moves in bed and she knows all of yours. It is good, but it isn't the way it was when one was first married.

An affair brings back the excitement of marriage. It is good, it is wonderful, one is young again and free, at least for a little while, from the world of bills, responsibilities, and arguments over what color the living room rug should be.

Which is why mid-life affairs are real.


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## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> If that timeline is correct, aside from the fact it took the OMW to stop the affair and the OM to dump her, as she didn't stop it on her own, then I'd have a little more hope for R. But if I were him I'd still be very suspicious of her motives for wanting to get back together...because as he said, she admitted she'd have left him if the OM said he wanted to be with her.
> 
> So I have to wonder in the 2 years she was out of the house, what was she doing? Still talking to the OM? Was it truly over at that point? I dare say did she go out and have fun with any other men?
> That is speculation, but something tells me she didn't refrain completely from gratification in those 2 years. Kev is being rather hush on that part of it.


I don't think she was out of the house for two years. Kev wrote on another thread (I wish he'd stop creating new threads -- it is hard to find anything):



> Two years ago I think she started to doubt who she was. I could tell something was a little weird. Come to find out in this period of doubt that she had an affair with a man we know. About a year long affair.


So the affair was about a year long. I also found this:



> Met at 18, married at 19, perfect marriage for for 26 years, 3 kids, then supposedly a midlife crisis overwhelms my beautiful perfect wife at age 45 and she ends up in a full-on affair with one of her good friend's husbands.


So they married at 19. After 26 years they'd be 45. I don't know when the two year period Kev talks about above started. The affair ended after a year. So if Kev's gut was correct they are now 47 with the affair suspected but not confirmed. Then the affair began when they were 45, the affair blew up a year later at 46, and then Kev's wife was tossed out of the house. So I assume that that happened when they were 46 and that she's not seen the OM during that entire year.

But one does wish that Kev would put it all together for us. It is complicated enough as it is.


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## ConanHub

Q tip said:


> Players know how to sweep a lady off her feet and create that "desire". Rekindle feelings real life has dried out.
> 
> He places her back into the fairy tale land of fun, hot sex, rainbows and not real life of bills, husbands, dirty dishes, cleaning, stress, mortgage, kids...
> 
> Perhaps she has no way to excuse the temptation but say I don't know what happened. But I liked it lots.


If a PUA tried to sweep Mrs. Conan off her feet, she would hand him his nuts. If she was really annoyed at him, she would introduce me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dogbert

Another Captain Obvious comment:

"People don't appreciate what they have until they lose it"


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## ConanHub

Dogbert said:


> Another Captain Obvious comment:
> 
> "People don't appreciate what they have until they lose it"


I like Captain Obvious. I think he needs his own comic book.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dogbert

OP's wife took for granted her husband and children, gambled by throwing the die because she believed she could do better with OM, and crapped out on snake eyes. *LOSER!!*

The "Gambler's ruin".


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## honcho

Dogbert said:


> Another Captain Obvious comment:
> 
> "People don't appreciate what they have until they lose it"


And yet the obvious is often the hardest thing for people to see or believe


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## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> But one does wish that Kev would put it all together for us. It is complicated enough as it is.


Agreed. And this isn't a criticism of Kev. Just hard to follow sometimes.


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## Road Scholar

It was suggested I comment on this so I will. Many will already know my story, but it's not much different than anyone else's hear really. Infatuation, lies, deceit, betrayal, sex, gaslighting, trickle truth, exposure, guilt, shame, pain, trauma, insecurity, paranoia, anger, hurt, fear, confusion, limbo, mood swings...and all that could be in a day. It sucks but it sure makes you feel alive!

Two years is a long time to fake it. To me that shows remorse but I don't know the full story here. The bottom line to me is people are not perfect. People make mistakes and hurt each other, sometimes repeatedly for different reasons. Either because of their own flaws and insecurities or because of their own selfish, wants, needs desires and self gratification. Unfortunately through our mistakes is how we learn and hopefully evolve and mature.

If we're compassionate we try not to make mistakes that cause hurt for others, but inevitably it happens usually to those we love most. Certain individuals will see the hurt they have caused and learn their lesson and be sorry, remorseful and will come to realize that what they thought they wanted, desired, pursued wasn't real. It was a mirage. That will be a catalyst for change. Others will continue to pursue their own selfish needs regardless of how their actions hurt those around them. If you're wife is compassionate to you and is very caring for you and sensitive to your feelings, then she may just get it. Maybe she has learned.

At the end of the day, you need to decide which camp your wife falls into and then you need to decide if it's worth rolling the dice with her again, knowing she hurt you beyond her comprehension. Whatever your choice is you are fully entitled to it and neither one is wrong as long as it's right for you....but make the choice for you and what you want not her and what she wants. Just seeing her daily will bring up bad memories, but over time hopefully you can build new good memories to take the place of the bad ones during that time.

Lately I've been coming to the realization that it's not my job to teach my WW a lesson or to punish her for her mistakes and pain that she caused me. Because it takes me to the dark place with her and I eventually feel worse, mentally and physically. I know from experience that when I offer love, compassion and kindness that we both feel better and closer and that is when love and trust is created.

Hopefully one day all WW's fully realize the depth of pain and destruction they caused. As for me, I'm almost 2 years out from the start of my wife's affair 2/28/13 and about 1.5 years from DDay 2. We are reconciling and it's been up and down but seems to be stabilizing at least for now. If I didn't have kids, I'm pretty sure I'd be out. Just too painful and it would allow me to be more selfish. I'm not saying that it would have been the right decision either, but in many respects I feel it would have been easier to be out and done with it all. 

Trying to keep our family together has been a big factor for me. My desire for that, my wife's willingness to fight for our marriage has led me to reconciliation. But believe me I'm still angry about it and think about it every day, and think how could she do that? As long as she treats me well each day that I am with her and I am able to do the same, then I will fight on for a better future together. I'm still very vigilant and if anything changes, I know I won't have problem bailing next time and I can hold my head high.

All the best of luck to you. Stay out of the pity party, its a bottomless pit, been there many times myself. Easy to say, hard to do. Make the decision to be happy for you and live your life to the fullest. Be thankful for what you do have. We're only here a short time.

Peace.

-RS


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## star2916

Well, it may be common, but Midlife Crisis doesn't mean she became mentally incompetent.

___ "She would have still been expected to control herself against committing murder, assault, fraud, even shoplifting. She is still considered to know right from wrong. Do you think "Midlife Crisis" would be accepted by a judge if she walked out of a store with a piece of jewelry in her pocket? So why is it accepted for a betrayal of a life partner?

No, there is a second reason at play, here. From her confession, it sounds like you were Plan B, and she would have left with the OM if he would have had her.

As I said, you have to decide for yourself, but I think I deserve more than that. I deserve to be #1 in her heart, not First Runner-Up. I couldn't live like that. " ____

I do not believe for a moment in the Midlife Crisis concept.
If any person is going to experience that, it would more likely be in their 30's. Where their life experience is somehow limited depending of the way they were raised.

In our 40's, we are supposedly, and should be, mature enough to know better.
Any other excuse is just that, an EXCUSE> Or ... they are just selfish individuals that get bored and have a weak conscience or they are sick in their minds.


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## verpin zal

Umm.. OP banned?


----------



## larry.gray

verpin zal said:


> Umm.. OP banned?


Yep, twice. I saw the first one, I'm not sure what caused the second one. Number three is usually permanent. I hope he can figure out how to contain the responses that's getting him banned because he could use the help from this website.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

larry.gray said:


> Yep, twice. I saw the first one, I'm not sure what caused the second one. Number three is usually permanent. I hope he can figure out how to contain the responses that's getting him banned because he could use the help from this website.


He didn't seem to listen to much of what we were telling him on his multiple threads.

I'm guessing that he won't listen to the mod's for long either.

He's got a real knack for being his own worse enemy.


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## just got it 55

TheOMThatWivesWant said:


> Interesting.
> I'm 6'3. I get told I'm attractive a lot.
> I'm in good, athetic shape.
> I am solvent, financially, work fulltime, have no debts or baggage from marriages.
> I drive a very nice BMW.
> 
> I struggle like hell to get female _attention _let alone dates.


TOMTWW....Maybe that's just in your head ??

Just go with what happens forget the outcome.

55


----------



## Q tip

theomthatwiveswant said:


> interesting.
> I'm 6'3. I get told i'm attractive a lot.
> I'm in good, athetic shape.
> I am solvent, financially, work fulltime, have no debts or baggage from marriages.
> I drive a very nice bmw.
> 
> I struggle like hell to get female _attention _let alone dates.


 shower and shave..? smile? go out a bit?

you know the difference between a cactus and a BMW?


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## manfromlamancha

KK why did you delete your original thread ?


----------

