# More than just sex - looking for feedback



## Texansfan (May 8, 2015)

Curious about this, wanted to get some feedback. I noticed many posters in this thread talk about different ways (including ultimatums) to improve their sex lives with their significant others. Say this works and you increase the frequency. What I struggle with is if this is really satisfying in the long run? In my opinion, it's not only about the sex, it's about you wanting the other person to desire you and actually want to have sex with you. If the other person is only having sex with you because they are afraid you may leave them or some other reason, it defeats the purpose no? I'd like to hear some feedback on this cause I see these types of posts time and time again.

Personally, I initiate way more than i have in the past and the frequency is much improved (2-3x per week). I am rarely turned down. However, I can't help but feel something is missing and can't put my finger on it. While I don't get denied, and it appears she does enjoy it after a while (seems to orgasm most times), I still don't feel satisfied. Not once does she initiate on her own and while I respect that she may be trying to improve things and do it to meet my emotional need for sex, I don't feel she desires sex or me for that matter and that is why it just doesn't feel right sometimes. I can see in her face that she'd rather do other things than have sex with me but she goes with the flow anyway. 

Don't mean to ramble, just curious what others feel about this. Always thought it was about me just wanting to get laid more but I guess I'm deeper than that....who knew....lol.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

If you're going to issue an ultimatum, it should be about improving the marriage, not simply frequency of sex.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

So, this thing you can't put your finger on?... would it be your wife screaming in the bedroom not to stop and keep going after she has had about six orgasms while digging her fingernails into your back and ripping the sheets half way off the bed?

Well the key to that my friend, let me see here, oh crap where did I hide the key???????


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tex,

This is an excellent post. What you seek is a connection via sex and that's a very positive thing. 

IF - and it may be difficult - IF you can get a bit deeper into your wife's head, you may find out how to make the experience better for her. 

No certainty, but possible. 





Texansfan said:


> Curious about this, wanted to get some feedback. I noticed many posters in this thread talk about different ways (including ultimatums) to improve their sex lives with their significant others. Say this works and you increase the frequency. What I struggle with is if this is really satisfying in the long run? In my opinion, it's not only about the sex, it's about you wanting the other person to desire you and actually want to have sex with you. If the other person is only having sex with you because they are afraid you may leave them or some other reason, it defeats the purpose no? I'd like to hear some feedback on this cause I see these types of posts time and time again.
> 
> Personally, I initiate way more than i have in the past and the frequency is much improved (2-3x per week). I am rarely turned down. However, I can't help but feel something is missing and can't put my finger on it. While I don't get denied, and it appears she does enjoy it after a while (seems to orgasm most times), I still don't feel satisfied. Not once does she initiate on her own and while I respect that she may be trying to improve things and do it to meet my emotional need for sex, I don't feel she desires sex or me for that matter and that is why it just doesn't feel right sometimes. I can see in her face that she'd rather do other things than have sex with me but she goes with the flow anyway.
> 
> Don't mean to ramble, just curious what others feel about this. Always thought it was about me just wanting to get laid more but I guess I'm deeper than that....who knew....lol.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Emotional intimacy is what you are craving. That, coupled with an intense sexual connection, is a beautiful thing when it all "clicks." Sex without intimacy is just... sex.

We all (or most of us) want the total package.

When we're lucky enough to have it all, it's beyond words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

What was the frequency before the increase?

In the recent past, I increased the frequency and she complied. I know her heart wasn't there, which over time caused more resentments. It was just sex for my wife. Nothing emotional at all. Sex never made her feel loved. 


Haven't had sex in 9 months. Why did I ever give a heck about a stupid emotional connection?

When the sex stopped, all affection stopped as well. It wasn't sex I was after, It was affection.


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## Texansfan (May 8, 2015)

Trickster said:


> What was the frequency before the increase?
> 
> In the recent past, I increased the frequency and she complied. I know her heart wasn't there, which over time caused more resentments. It was just sex for my wife. Nothing emotional at all. Sex never made her feel loved.
> 
> ...


This post has me concerned cause I can see this happening. Was the resentment on your part or hers or both? So why do you stay in this marriage, it's sounds like a pretty bad situation.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

For me it was about way more than the lack of sex, it was about living a passionless life, no intimacy or closeness. Like many others we had a great marriage in all other aspects but I could not live the rest of my life without the passion. I love being part of a secret club of two where a fulfilling sex life adds to all the other things that bond you, without that there there is no marriage, just friends raising kids together.

Ex and I have remained friends, amicable and co parent exceptionally well. Divorce took away the pain of living in a sexless marriage and now we are both happy in our separate lives and as friends. 

Have said it many times here, life is too short to live in a sexless, passionless marriage. I found an amazing life after divorce, yes the grass was much greener.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

Sorry to get Freudian on everyone, but I know more than a few so-called LD women who are such because of childhood trauma - particularly systematic sexual abuse, and by a close family member or friend.

I really wish all you HDers with LD wives or husbands would, in a serious as a heart attack way, urge your "LD" partners to open up to you about what's really at the root of their lack of desire, and encourage them to seek therapy if they can't. They don't stay with you in sexless marriages out of laziness or complacency. In their hearts and minds, they do love you. But the concept of physical, intimate love with someone they trust to also have their back in a familial way got broken some time ago. Not irretrievably broken, though. But they can't fix it alone.


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## Icey181 (Apr 16, 2015)

I am in a similar (kind of) situation as you, because I have the same question/comment.

We are working on frequency, but there is something missing.

Desire, passion, enthusiasm are only there generally, like half measures.

The issue with the "Talk" or ultimatums is that sometimes it just convinces a person to add "having sex" to their list of chores.

That was really never the point.

I am not sure if that is a mismatch of "Love Languages" or whatever or just a complete disconnect between "relationship love" and "passionate love" that she does not quite get.

No answers here, still working on it myself.

I just know where you are coming from.


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## Icey181 (Apr 16, 2015)

Nomorebeans said:


> But the concept of physical, intimate love with someone they trust to also have their back in a familial way got broken some time ago. Not irretrievably broken, though. But they can't fix it alone.


This assumes that something existed to "break" this in them.

For my wife I do not think it was ever established in the first place.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Texansfan said:


> This post has me concerned cause I can see this happening. Was the resentment on your part or hers or both? So why do you stay in this marriage, it's sounds like a pretty bad situation.


First reason- I changed. I accept her virginity when she was 25 and many years of near sexlessness because of codependency.. I was the one who changed and wanted to turn a platonic love into a romantic sexual love after 17 years. I have friends now, hobby's, interests. I am happy overall. I am no longer dependent bon my wife for happiness.

Second- our daughter. She is 11 and is my world. I still read to her every night. We read to each other. I love that. Most of my family has passed away. Both parents and two brothers. I do have a sister. My wifes' family are mine as well. They treat me like family. I never had that growing up..

Third- financial. Again, I accepted my wife as she was. Even with her degree, she never advanced in a career. A child made it easy for her to stay at home. Problem was, she didn't want to go back to work. Every year, we added about 5 thousand dollars of debt. We weren't living in luxury either. Just camps, books, clothes, general stuff for our daughter, and some medical early on. My wife didn't spend money on herself all that much. Wife wanted to buy a home in a nice school district for our daughter. I wanted the best possible for our daugher too. That's how I justified everything. The plan was that my wife would go back to work several years sooner. She took her time and now has to go back to school.


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## afab (Jul 28, 2015)

A few things. Maybe you do it too often for her.
But more important. Today one can get films of 'how' it should be done which you cant compete with. Maybe your wife expects something else or what she thinks is better. She sees pictures of males who look a lot better than you. All this has a devastating effect on her sex and you cant do much about it. 
She has to realise that you are what she has got and has to make the most of it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Texansfan said:


> This post has me concerned cause I can see this happening.


Hi Texasfan, 

For what it is worth, I had a similar concern only to find out that I was not acknowledging my wife's affection towards me. Here is an example:

We both work from home and I often let my office turn into a disaster. She will not only come clean it up for me, but she will rearrange some things to help make my work easier (we share the same career, so she really understands my job). Instead of recognizing this as a way that she demonstrated her affection for me, I felt guilty for letting my office get so messy that she had to clean it up for me. In reality she enjoys helping me keep my stuff in order and now I make it a point to thank her caring about my work space. 

In relationships there are many languages of love/affection, and many of them are hard to recognize. If your wife has been demonstrating her affection in a way that you show no gratitude, it is easy for her to build resentment. Also if you want her to show affection only in ways that you recognize it, she can feel as though you are manipulating/controlling her which can also be counterproductive. If she is already giving you affection, be sure to learn to recognize and acknowledge it.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Texasfan-

I didn't quit answer your resentment question.

Throughout this whole process, over a 4 year period, I changed a lot. Call it a 180. It was more than that. I read so many books on marriage, including a polar opposite, MMSLP. I has the nice guy syndrome already. That has always been part of me. If I only did this one more thing, my wife would love me the way that I want.

Nothing really changed on her part. 

Toward the end, I pursued sex more than ever and my wife never really rejected me. After I read the to our daugghter at night, my wife would tuck her in and stay with her until she fell asleep. My wife always fell asleep next to our daughter. She would find ways to avoid sex.

She NEVER verbalized anything that she wanted me to do to make her feel more loved. She always felt I loved her and didn't know why I didn't feel loved by her.

I resented that my wife never told me what she wanted me to do to improve our sex life. It was a guessing game. She didn't care to try new things either. She saw me reading book after book on marriage and never picked up a book herself. It was wasted effort. 

I got in excellent shape, developed hobbys and she never said a word. It didn't matter to her. Nothing mattered.

After many years of sobriety, I fell off the wagon. I was on and off drinking. When I was sober for six month, she didn't say a word and when I was drinking regular for six months, she didn't say a word. I was like a child acting badly, trying to get her attention. That never worked. There was some resentments there.

If my wife has any resentments, I wouldn't know. 

I eventually forced the truth. My wife told me she has a platonic love for me. I have been a friend for 23 years. She is happy with that. She is still happy today. Happier now that sex has stoopped.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Texansfan said:


> Curious about this, wanted to get some feedback. I noticed many posters in this thread talk about different ways (including ultimatums) to improve their sex lives with their significant others. Say this works and you increase the frequency. What I struggle with is if this is really satisfying in the long run? In my opinion, it's not only about the sex, it's about you wanting the other person to desire you and actually want to have sex with you. If the other person is only having sex with you because they are afraid you may leave them or some other reason, it defeats the purpose no? I'd like to hear some feedback on this cause I see these types of posts time and time again.
> 
> Personally, I initiate way more than i have in the past and the frequency is much improved (2-3x per week). I am rarely turned down. However, I can't help but feel something is missing and can't put my finger on it. While I don't get denied, and it appears she does enjoy it after a while (seems to orgasm most times), I still don't feel satisfied. Not once does she initiate on her own and while I respect that she may be trying to improve things and do it to meet my emotional need for sex, I don't feel she desires sex or me for that matter and that is why it just doesn't feel right sometimes. I can see in her face that she'd rather do other things than have sex with me but she goes with the flow anyway.
> 
> Don't mean to ramble, just curious what others feel about this. Always thought it was about me just wanting to get laid more but I guess I'm deeper than that....who knew....lol.


This is classic! Sex isn't the problem, what is missing is seduction. Seduction was and will always remain the female form of power and warfare. For thousands of years, it was the cure to rape and violence. It's apparent that a form of boredom has crept in. Your ability to alleviate this boredom by making life adventerous and exciting will make your company highly prized again. 

The greatest danger to marriage is the mere hint of routine or familiarity. You need to maintain some mystery and invoke high emotional tension and charm which will result in excitement and imagination. You'll need the ability to get outside yourself. To take your marriage where it's never been, you'll have to do things you've never done. All of us are weighed down by all kinds of responsibilities. A wall forms around us. You must lure your wife away from the daily responibility and affairs that fill her mind. Offer her something unfamiliar that will fascinate her and hold her attention. To do this, start with being different with your manner and her appearance. People yearn to explore thier darker, more seductive sides. Love is not always suppose to be tender and soft.

Each gender has its own seductive lures and to a woman, it is her appearance. Men are predominantly visually stimulated. Venture out, and obtain the most seductive dress or wardrobe for your wife as possible with plans to make a public appearance. Physical appearances are critical, they force upon a man an agitation of his senses. Providing a sexy dress/wardrobe will transform your wife inside and out. You will give her the license to play a role that has been pre-determined. Use flattery, there is no greater physical lure than to make your wife feel alluring. Make your wife feel that a great deal of time and money was spent, better yet... even wasted, on her exclusively. 

To be effective, the body and it's clothes must dazzle. It is the body and clothes that create the Goddess effect of being beyond everyone's reach. Disclosure must be selective, revealing only part of the body, but a part that will excite and stir your imagination. Make her feel that once she walks out of your home's front door on date night, that she is leaving one world behind and entering a new one.

Leave all of your inhibitions behind and care nothing of what anyone else thinks or opinionates. Feminine boldness has it's allure because it is more rare than any other kind. Remember, no one is born timid. Timidity is a protection we develop. 

The frequency of sex means nothing without boldness and seduction. Dress her up, and take her out! Let us know how it went...


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Nomorebeans said:


> Sorry to get Freudian on everyone, but I know more than a few so-called LD women who are such because of childhood trauma - particularly systematic sexual abuse, and by a close family member or friend.
> 
> I really wish all you HDers with LD wives or husbands would, in a serious as a heart attack way, urge your "LD" partners to open up to you about what's really at the root of their lack of desire, and encourage them to seek therapy if they can't. They don't stay with you in sexless marriages out of laziness or complacency. In their hearts and minds, they do love you. But the concept of physical, intimate love with someone they trust to also have their back in a familial way got broken some time ago. Not irretrievably broken, though. But they can't fix it alone.



Yes, but...

Many times the CSA victim does not understand sexuality, and they don't understand their marriage is not right. They don't understand male sexuality especially.

My wife thought that men just needed to "spurt it out", as a bodily function. She did not understand there is an emotional connection for men. My first ultimatum to her was about the marriage as a whole, not sex. When we got to talking about sex I didn't make any ultimatums because by that time she'd revealed (finally after decades of being married) that she had been sexually abused as a child.

Up until our conversation, she truly believed that wives provided a servicing of their husbands to keep them from wandering. She had a really dysfunctional view of sex in marriage, and sexuality in general. Children who are abused learn about sexuality in a very dysfunctional way. Don't expect them to think or behave like non-abused people.


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## Texansfan (May 8, 2015)

Hi Guys, I am having a rough time here so I thought I would post. I don't know what to do or how to act around my wife anymore...I'm all over the place these days. We had the talk about our relationship a few times already over the last 5 months, with the most recent being 2 weeks ago. Recently, we both agreed there is a disconnect and that we should work on it. However, she has not put one ounce of effort into working on it and improving things since we started talking about it back in March. It's been ALL me putting in the effort (reading and suggesting books, MC, etc.) She acts like nothing is wrong and just continues each day not bringing up the topic or discussing any issues. She'll show affection occasionally but not much. I tried different tactics over the last few months. Started with me planning date nights without kids, doing stuff with eachother, etc. which she was on board with when I plan it. I also initiated sex much more and as initially posted, she did not reject me but I could tell she was just doing it for me. Recently over the last couple of weeks after our last talk I have been doing a "soft" 180 (reducing the temperature). I haven't initiated sex once, I rarely show affection unless she does, stopped texting her at work etc. I'm not even sure she noticed the difference...she still just goes about her day working, playing mom and wife acting like things are fine with no communication about it. While a minor hug and kiss here, we haven't had sex...she hasn't initiated once. She said one night she hoped we could get together but then nothing happens. I feel myself getting so frustrated and resentful I'm almost ready to blow. I have to force myself to calm down. I'm getting so tired of putting in the effort I'm frankly losing motivation to do so. I know if I blow up and appear cold it will push her away further. But I'm not sure how long I can go on acting like nothing is wrong hoping for things to get better. I just don't understand it, I am in great shape, have a good job, a good father to our 2 kids (5 and 7). All I want is to have a solid, fun marriage with intimacy, passion, etc. with my wife. In her defense, she works full time at a demanding job and her commute is long. She gets home and has to get kids ready for next day, etc. She is exhausted a lot. But I do help with all this, work and go to the gym also. I get that it's hard but many families do this and still make time for eachother. 

Do you recommend continuing with the soft 180 and see where it goes? Or, have another talk. I'm almost getting to the point of ultimatums but I know my wife would not respond well to that...I think she would shut down. Just looking for advice cause I'm starting to get depressed. I have been thinking recently that this may lead to separation and it breaks my heart when I think about not being able to kiss and tuck my kids in bed every night. I'm so upset over this...it's a no win situation.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

When you do initiate, how do you do it? How often (before the 180)?

Was the sex ever good? Did she ever initiate? If so, when did it change?

Have you ever done a vacation just the two of you?


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## Mrs.K (Apr 12, 2012)

Every time in the past few months that I have brought up lack of sex to my husband I always felt he was doing it just because I said something. 
Then he stopped listening apparently because he is always too tired.

He finally admitted he is addicted to porn (could have told him this 10 years ago, I did actually) and since then we have had sex one time and it wasn't initiated by him. 

I want more sex but I am to the point where I don't want or need his obligatory sex.

I guess I wouldn't even know the difference of him really wanting it or not. We've been married for almost 12 years and our sex life has always been dysfunctional. It's also always been blamed on me.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Texansfan said:


> Hi Guys, I am having a rough time here so I thought I would post. I don't know what to do or how to act around my wife anymore...I'm all over the place these days. We had the talk about our relationship a few times already over the last 5 months, with the most recent being 2 weeks ago. Recently, we both agreed there is a disconnect and that we should work on it. However, she has not put one ounce of effort into working on it and improving things since we started talking about it back in March. It's been ALL me putting in the effort (reading and suggesting books, MC, etc.) She acts like nothing is wrong and just continues each day not bringing up the topic or discussing any issues. She'll show affection occasionally but not much. I tried different tactics over the last few months. Started with me planning date nights without kids, doing stuff with eachother, etc. which she was on board with when I plan it. I also initiated sex much more and as initially posted, she did not reject me but I could tell she was just doing it for me. Recently over the last couple of weeks after our last talk I have been doing a "soft" 180 (reducing the temperature). I haven't initiated sex once, I rarely show affection unless she does, stopped texting her at work etc. I'm not even sure she noticed the difference...she still just goes about her day working, playing mom and wife acting like things are fine with no communication about it. While a minor hug and kiss here, we haven't had sex...she hasn't initiated once. She said one night she hoped we could get together but then nothing happens. I feel myself getting so frustrated and resentful I'm almost ready to blow. I have to force myself to calm down. I'm getting so tired of putting in the effort I'm frankly losing motivation to do so. I know if I blow up and appear cold it will push her away further. But I'm not sure how long I can go on acting like nothing is wrong hoping for things to get better. I just don't understand it, I am in great shape, have a good job, a good father to our 2 kids (5 and 7). All I want is to have a solid, fun marriage with intimacy, passion, etc. with my wife. In her defense, she works full time at a demanding job and her commute is long. She gets home and has to get kids ready for next day, etc. She is exhausted a lot. But I do help with all this, work and go to the gym also. I get that it's hard but many families do this and still make time for eachother.
> 
> Do you recommend continuing with the soft 180 and see where it goes? Or, have another talk. I'm almost getting to the point of ultimatums but I know my wife would not respond well to that...I think she would shut down. Just looking for advice cause I'm starting to get depressed. I have been thinking recently that this may lead to separation and it breaks my heart when I think about not being able to kiss and tuck my kids in bed every night. I'm so upset over this...it's a no win situation.


How about marriage counseling - can you ask her to make that a priority because your marriage is in trouble? Maybe she doesn't understand that you think your marriage is in serious trouble? I certainly didn't get that from your first post, but now it seems like you are ready to issue ultimatums? What kind of ultimatum?

If you want to improve intimacy inside the bedroom, you have to improve it outside. Start dating again. Find some good baby-sitters and leave the kids at home and go on dates with your wife. Flirt with her, remind her that she is a woman first, mom second. Pay attention to her, flirt, lots of eye contact, compliments, all the things you did naturally when you were first dating. Rekindle the spark. Couples need at least 15 hours of together time, just the two of them as an adult couple, in order to maintain the emotional intimacy in their marriage. No kids, no distractions, just the two of you.

As for sex/initiation - lots and lots of women have responsive desire. They don't get aroused and want sex the same way that men do. So I don't think you need to feel bad that she doesn't initiate. I love my SO and I love sex with my SO, but I don't think I really ever "initiate" out of the blue. 

However, problems inside the bedroom usually are a symptom of what is doing on outside the bedroom, so treating her coldly doesn't seem like it would increase the temp between you.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Texansfan said:


> *It's been ALL me putting in the effort (reading and suggesting books, MC, etc.) She acts like nothing is wrong and just continues each day not bringing up the topic or discussing any issues. She'll show affection occasionally but not much. I tried different tactics over the last few months. Started with me planning date nights without kids, doing stuff with eachother, etc. which she was on board with when I plan it. I also initiated sex much more and as initially posted, she did not reject me but I could tell she was just doing it for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...it's a no win situation.*


*




Your wife is passively rejecting the idea that your marriage is in trouble. Instead of coming out and disagreeing with you, she nods and agrees and then does nothing. Been there done that and that is why the ultimatum is the last line of defense of marriage. Yes defense. 

You don't want a divorce, neither did I, but I sure as hell was t going to live the rest of my life in an emotionally constipated, disconnected marriage.

I gave the ultimatum last Jan. we had been on thin ice for a few years, trying half heartedly to connect. Half heartedly by both of us I might add. I was done with putting all the effort into this marriage, if it meant enough to him he needed to step the hell up. And he kinda sorta almost sometimes did. Last Jan an insignificant event between us occurred and I realized I was never going to see from this man the kind of emotional connection and passion I wanted. 

That's when he realized I really was done. That's when he called Retrouvaille and hooked is for emergency intervention.

So you can do your 180, did that too. You can make your plans and buy the books, did all that too. You can find a marriage counselor, did that twice. But it wasn't until I was really done that he realized he better step up. I was lucky because he could have also watched me walk out the door and told everyone how unreasonable I was. And that is a risk you will face too.

Maybe keep trying all those other things for a few years and then give the ultimatum. But whatever you do, do NOT ever pretend everything is peachy when it isn't*


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## Texansfan (May 8, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> Your wife is passively rejecting the idea that your marriage is in trouble. Instead of coming out and disagreeing with you, she nods and agrees and then does nothing. Been there done that and that is why the ultimatum is the last line of defense of marriage. Yes defense.
> 
> You don't want a divorce, neither did I, but I sure as hell was t going to live the rest of my life in an emotionally constipated, disconnected marriage.
> 
> ...


A few years?? I'm lucky if I last a few months. Thanks for this...appreciate the response. You didn't say, how are things now between you two? How is the passion/sex now? Also how did you give the ultimatum and what did you say? If i ever decide to walk out the door not sure if she would stop me or not. That is pretty sad that I don't know the answer to that.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Texansfan said:


> A few years?? I'm lucky if I last a few months. Thanks for this...appreciate the response. You didn't say, how are things now between you two? How is the passion/sex now? Also how did you give the ultimatum and what did you say? If i ever decide to walk out the door not sure if she would stop me or not. That is pretty sad that I don't know the answer to that.



We had talked about divorce several times, agreed to divorce, decided to try, and then things fell apart again. I reached the end and just point blank said I was done, that nothing would ever change, that he would always go right back to his normal the first chance he got and I did not want his normal for the rest of my life. 


We have enjoyed a great sex life for ...maybe 12 or so years now. Our problem began with sex, and that was my fault so I fixed it. But fixing sex didn't fix the emotional connection, the passion for each other, or the desire for life, enjoyment of life. He did his thing I did my thing and we had great sex. So sex was not our problem.

Sex isn't your problem either. Your problem is the same as mine was, no emotional buy in on the relationship itself. Your wife leaves the relationship up to you, as did my husband. This leaves you feeling like you're the only one who gives a damn.

You're getting sex, you're not getting the emotional connection sex *should* bring with it.

For us, we are doing quite well. We are having fun again, laughing again, enjoying each other again. My husband had to go through some soul searching and he clicked with his second therapist so that was also a big assist. He isn't emotionally stunted anymore. He says what's on his mind, owns his decisions, makes plans, says yes and says no to me his family and our kids.

I don't think the ultimatum should be given lightly. You really have to be okay with the possibility that they might watch you walk out the door, but you also have to be just as okay with the possibility that they will fix it.

As much as I b!tch about the Catholic Church..Retrouvaille saved our marriage. So when you've exhausted marriage counseling and are sick of trying... Go here and find one close to you.

Marriage Help Program For Couples


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## Idun (Jul 30, 2011)

I understand what you're saying, you don't just want sex - you want to be wanted. 

Working on the relationship would be the best thing to do. Try books like His Needs Her Needs and The 5 Love Languages.

I just read your other posts and see you have made a huge effort  

I'm not sure, except like others have said she doesn't see there being a problem so hence cannot be bothered to actually make the effort to connect more with you - because you are putting up with things as they are anyway. I think ultimatums are wrong when it comes to just sex, but you are wanting emotional intimacy and attention - which I think is fair to put your foot down for.


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## Texansfan (May 8, 2015)

I'm very happy for you guys...I would want the same thing for us. Some quick clarifcation...number 1 is you mention that I am getting sex but that is not the case. The frequency picked up only recently after I made some changes and started initiating more. However, before that for years it was infrequent, sometimes going 2 months without. The sex was never that great...this has always been an issue for us. But you are right, it's not about the sex, it is about the emotional connection that goes with it and that is not there either. 

Also, Retrouvaille is not an option for us. Although I was brought up Catholic I am not religious in any way. And she is Jewish and not that religious either. Not sure if there is an equivalent to Retrouvaille that doesn't involve religion? If so, please let me know. But let me ask, did he here about this from you or you told him if he was serious about reconciling he needed to contact them? I don't feel I should be the one to say anything about this, it would need to come from her if she truly wants to work on us (not even sure if that's the case).

We've tried counseling back in May for 5 weeks or so and both hated it....it was more stressful for us than anything to even go. Unfortunately we had a very bad MC and that may have ruined it for both of us trying again....it was a waste of money. 

I don't know how to act right now. She does try to show affection here and there like I said and is being nice but still no communication about our relationship or any important issues...she does not bring it up. I know she also senses me being standoffish but doesn't persist to ask questions to find out why. Should I try to be the nice fun loving guy and be receptive to her affection and see if things get better? This is hard because as each day passes I feel my blood boiling even more.

Or have another discussion, being very direct and clear about where I'm at and what needs to happen. Not sure I'm prepared for ultimatums just yet however. 

I'm all over the place right now as you can tell. Not sure how to proceed but I know I'm not happy and it is impacting other aspects of my life including kids and work.



Anon Pink said:


> We had talked about divorce several times, agreed to divorce, decided to try, and then things fell apart again. I reached the end and just point blank said I was done, that nothing would ever change, that he would always go right back to his normal the first chance he got and I did not want his normal for the rest of my life.
> 
> 
> We have enjoyed a great sex life for ...maybe 12 or so years now. Our problem began with sex, and that was my fault so I fixed it. But fixing sex didn't fix the emotional connection, the passion for each other, or the desire for life, enjoyment of life. He did his thing I did my thing and we had great sex. So sex was not our problem.
> ...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

You sure are all over the place. I've had a gander at your other threads and I think Retrouvaille is your best hope.

Neither you nor your wife seem to be able to really get a handle on what keeps either of you from feeling this connection a married couple is supposed to have, or wants to have. You've suspected your wife of cheating, your wife has never really had a strong sex drive, you've paternity tested your kids and yes they are yours... Dude if you've accused your wife of cheating and even went so far as the DNA test your kids there is an ocean between you two, not just a disconnect.

You two need Retrouvaille! I am an atheist with pagan tendencies and the Catholic Church really pisses me off! My husband is a recovering catholic.  yes, there was *some* God talk but it is easily ignored. Really if I could ignore it anyone can! 

I had told my husband about Retrouvaille and he made the plans for us. For me, it meant the world that he finally was making a real emotional buy in. After reading your threads, I do not think it matters whether you make the plans or she does. Retrouvaille weekends are intense workshops teaching incredibly valuable communication skills. It was learning these skills that got my husband to realize just how distant he was, and that he was purposely distant knowing how it would affect me. That was a HUGE breakthrough for us.

I'm sorry that your experience with a MC was not helpful, to be honest, it is not uncommon for MC to fail miserably. Stop wondering, stop worrying. Go to Retrouvaille and learn how to work it out TOGETHER!


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## Texansfan (May 8, 2015)

Is there an alternative to Retrouvaille? I just don't see this as an option just yet. This is going to sound like an excuse but it's not...we have 2 young kids and obligations on weekends for the next 6 weeks it seems. We just don't have the time to commit to something like this at this time...it looks like a very involved program. Don't get me wrong, we may need this but for now looking for an alternative to at least kick things off and ramp up later if things don't improve. 



Anon Pink said:


> You sure are all over the place. I've had a gander at your other threads and I think Retrouvaille is your best hope.
> 
> Neither you nor your wife seem to be able to really get a handle on what keeps either of you from feeling this connection a married couple is supposed to have, or wants to have. You've suspected your wife of cheating, your wife has never really had a strong sex drive, you've paternity tested your kids and yes they are yours... Dude if you've accused your wife of cheating and even went so far as the DNA test your kids there is an ocean between you two, not just a disconnect.
> 
> ...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

No, there is no alternative. Retrouvaille is the emergency room for dying marriages. It is the last stop before divorce. It is not supposed to be easy to take part in this and there is a very good reason why. 

Make a choice, your marriage or your weekend. Your marriage or not inconveniencing family or friends to take care of kids. Your marriage or not having to put up with a smattering of God talk.

Retrouvaille is a huge inconvenience. But it is better than divorce. So how serious are you about saving your marriage?

It's okay that you're not there yet, things haven't reached the breaking point yet so Retrouvaille isn't appropriate yet. Like I said in my first post, run your MAP, do your 180, search for another MC and keep trying. Then when you're really ready to call it quits, call Retrouvaille instead.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Look Tex, you're confusing the hell out of me.

You say sex was never good, that your wife has never been a very sexual person, but then you accuse her of cheating and paternity test your kids? This makes no sense. If your wife has never had a sex drive why on earth would she be having an affair with someone else? I mean if sex isn't something she particularly cares about what would she be doing with another man? Another man in her life she can reject for sex? Makes no sense at all.

Secondly, you paternity tested your kids. What do you think that did to your relationship? If my husband paternity tested our kids I'd be damned furious! 

Your wife has two little ones she is chasing around the house and as I said in your first thread, it is very common for women to experience a big drop in their sex drive when they are caring for little ones. But you never answered my last post in that thread (so why am I bothering now I ask myself)

I think you should take a look in the mirror and find ways you might be turning your wife off and away. 
Appearing too needy is a turn off. 
If you want sex ask for it! 
Don't be a pvssy and sulk in the corner waiting for her to notice you!
Accusing your wife of cheating and paternity testing your kids damaged your relationship and showed you to be a needy alarmist. How are you fixing that about yourself?


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## Texansfan (May 8, 2015)

Anon, I know some of this is confusing but I do want to thank you for your help...I really do appreciate it. And I do appreciate you being straight with me. Let me clarify a couple of things.

1) I considered (and it is still possible) one of the possible reasons why my wife had a low sex drive with me is BECAUSE she was or is having an affair. I have no evidence but some things didn't look and feel right back in March/April...and this is right when I actually started paying attention so if something did happen, it's possible that it could have been going on for a while. Don't want to get into details but I attributed (and still do) some of the way she is acting to this. Right or wrong, just the way it is. 

2) She does not know I paternity tested the kids and will never know.

3) I have never been a needy person and I don't think I am now. We've been together for 23 years (married 11)...i think over time we've become complacent and have taken each other for granted and that is part of the problem. This year I finally "awakened" (because of the fear of infidelity that kicked me in the ass) and am trying to make changes so we are happily "connected" for the next 20 years. I am to blame for how we got to this point just as much as she is and I tell her that. However, I'm trying to put us back on track for our family so we don't become a statistic. Unfortunately, there is no effort on her part to do the same and that is depressing to me. I guess I have to come to the realization that too much time may have passed and she may be too far gone and not want to get back on track like I do. 

4) I have been assertive and initiated sex recently and we were doing it a couple times a week but I could see and feel by her facial expressions and body language that she was not into it. She would orgasm most times but the connection wasn't there. Hard to explain but I think most understand what I'm trying to say. Honestly, this probably ended up being the opposite of what my goal was. I was trying to create more of a connection by having more sex but I think the opposite happened...I felt more distant from her. So I stopped, it was too much to take. 

5) I have been doing things for myself. I've been running races and hitting the gym hard. I'm in great physical shape and I am considered a good looking guy by women (and maybe men too who knows lol). Yes I can do more in the area of confidence but that will come. 





Anon Pink said:


> Look Tex, you're confusing the hell out of me.
> 
> You say sex was never good, that your wife has never been a very sexual person, but then you accuse her of cheating and paternity test your kids? This makes no sense. If your wife has never had a sex drive why on earth would she be having an affair with someone else? I mean if sex isn't something she particularly cares about what would she be doing with another man? Another man in her life she can reject for sex? Makes no sense at all.
> 
> ...


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## Texansfan (May 8, 2015)

Anon, I could use your advice on how I should proceed. Don't judge me for eavesdropping but I just overheard my wife having a conversation with one of her friends. She was complaining about work being so demanding and exhausting and how she needed to spend time with her family and was looking forward to our vacation next week. This is all good. But she did say something that made me think of what you said. She said she needed to spend time with me because she knows I'm upset because I have been quiet. But she also said to her friend that I'm like our third child when I don't get enough attention so she needed to spend time with me.

This tells me that she probably does view me as somewhat needy would you agree? Appears the soft 180 I am doing is being viewed by her as me being childish which is not what I wanted. I also get the feeling that she doesn't have total respect for me based on this.

So I ask you, what can/should I do to change her thinking and start gaining her respect. I think to do that I need to stop being a ***** like you said, be assertive and tell her straight out what I expect out of this relationship and if she isn't willing to work with me to make changes and show progress I am moving on. Do you think this is the right play here or another tactic would be better suited in this case?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Trickster said:


> Texasfan-
> 
> I didn't quit answer your resentment question.
> 
> ...


Of course she is. Her needs are being met.
What about your needs?


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

If somebody would just come up with a pill that killed sex drive, HD's everywhere would be happy. I'd take two a day.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Lots of anti-depressants kill sex drive. I don't recommend taking them if you aren't depressed, though.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

norajane said:


> Lots of anti-depressants kill sex drive. I don't recommend taking them if you aren't depressed, though.


I thought they made women want to have sex and men have a hard time having a orgasm.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

tornado said:


> I thought they made women want to have sex and men have a hard time having a orgasm.


No, that's alcohol.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Texansfan said:


> Anon, I could use your advice on how I should proceed. Don't judge me for eavesdropping but I just overheard my wife having a conversation with one of her friends. She was complaining about work being so demanding and exhausting and how she needed to spend time with her family and was looking forward to our vacation next week. This is all good. But she did say something that made me think of what you said. She said she needed to spend time with me because she knows I'm upset because I have been quiet. But she also said to her friend that I'm like our third child when I don't get enough attention so she needed to spend time with me.


Then your 180 wasn't done right. The purpose of the 180 is to find contentment and happiness without relying on your spouse, without pouting, heavy sighs, or passive aggressive pay backs. IOW, you become engaging, fun and happy no matter how she behaves toward you. You learn not to base your behavior on how your spouse is treating you. That's the 180.

This doesn't mean you don't _Try_ to connect with her, it simply means her answer, yes or no, won't set the tone for how you behave. Make sense?



> This tells me that she probably does view me as somewhat needy would you agree? Appears the soft 180 I am doing is being viewed by her as me being childish which is not what I wanted. I also get the feeling that she doesn't have total respect for me based on this.


Yes, hell yes. If you've been quiet and withdrawn waiting for her to notice you've shot yourself in the foot. Because that is pouting behavior and it is not attractive. 

She probably doesn't have a great deal of respect, but the good thing is that you can get it back.





> So I ask you, what can/should I do to change her thinking and start gaining her respect. I think to do that I need to stop being a ***** like you said, be assertive and tell her straight out what I expect out of this relationship and if she isn't willing to work with me to make changes and show progress I am moving on. Do you think this is the right play here or another tactic would be better suited in this case?


Yes, tell her what you want. Tell her what you expect. But first you've got to get your head on straight. So don't say anything right now.

Go to the men's club house and read the first sticky thread. Remember, do not silently point or silently stew. Either deal with it by discussing it or let it go.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-better-man-better-partner.html

Enjoy your vacation. Have fun, be together and be happy and content. When you get home start reading those thread contained in the link.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

norajane said:


> No, that's alcohol.


I have heard that about some of the SSRI.


Alcohol also makes people perdier. :grin2:

Then you wake up with a sea donkey in your bed :rofl:


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

tornado said:


> I have heard that about some of the SSRI.
> 
> 
> Alcohol also makes people perdier. :grin2:
> ...


Most SSRI's (Wellbutrin being the notable exception) will torpedo your sex drive--man or woman. It doesn't happen overnight usually, but it will happen.

To NoraJane's point however--don't take them exclusively for this reason. The first couple of weeks on them can affect people very negatively until you stabilize. Not a fun transition.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Texansfan--in the meanwhile, if you KNOW your spouse doesn't respect you and isn't enjoying sex--stop initiating. You're not getting anything out of it, and it's certainly not building any good will.


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## Texansfan (May 8, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> Then your 180 wasn't done right. The purpose of the 180 is to find contentment and happiness without relying on your spouse, without pouting, heavy sighs, or passive aggressive pay backs. IOW, you become engaging, fun and happy no matter how she behaves toward you. You learn not to base your behavior on how your spouse is treating you. That's the 180.
> 
> This doesn't mean you don't _Try_ to connect with her, it simply means her answer, yes or no, won't set the tone for how you behave. Make sense?
> 
> ...


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