# What do you say ?



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Am I wrong to cheat on my disabled husband? | Daily Mail Online


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

More of the synopsis is,


> When the man she adored was left hopelessly brain-damaged in a crash, Shana took a lover. Callous - or her only way to cope?


Yea that's an uncharted territory for just about all of us. I can't judge her as wrong or right.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

If it were me, I'd rather be divorced.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

She'll probably divorce brain damage Pete when bottom feeder Jess tells her he's had enough of the never ending drama. By that time Jess will probably be involved with another woman without the extra baggage. Shana will then become a poster girl of the old sayin' "what goes around comes around", Just watch, you'll see.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Yes, it's cheating.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Yeah, this is all about Shana! More especially when something this catastrophic happens to Pete!

Maybe she had better take a little time to reread and study her marriage vows to him!

How would it have been had this tragedy happened to Shana instead? It could have very easily happened that way! And if Pete would have deserted her, what would her family have thought about it?

Yeah, this is all about Shana!*


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

If I'm brain dead, I hope like hell my husband find someone who HAS a brain. Whether we're still married or not, as VMS no longer exists at that point. I'd be a selfish ***** to say "You have to love a brainless sack of meat now, so hope you're happy!" Never ever could I be that selfish.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The article says that her husband has the brain capacity of a toddler. He lives in a care center.

Technically she is cheating.

It's a marriage on paper only. she has some legal and financial responsibility. But there is nothing there. But I see nothing wrong with this. 

My bet is that she will get a divorce somewhere down the line.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

I'd stay married if my husband's care was dependent on being on my insurance (even if it just meant better quality of care than what he'd get on state funded care.) However, I'd move on and live my life after the grief period. Whoever I met would have to understand that I could commit but I couldn't legally marry them. If they had an issue with that, then they would lack the kind of understanding I'd need in a partner.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

vms said:


> I'd stay married if my husband's care was dependent on being on my insurance (even if it just meant better quality of care than what he'd get on state funded care.) However, I'd move on and live my life after the grief period. Whoever I met would have to understand that I could commit but I couldn't legally marry them. If they had an issue with that, then they would lack the kind of understanding I'd need in a partner.


...


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

3 words "Right To Die"

I would definitely would NOT want to continue "living" under such circumstances.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Heartbreaking story. Should I wind up similarly disabled, I wouldn't want my wife to spend the rest of her life w/o the type of love and affection that a husband _should_ be able to give to his wife.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Wtf?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

chaos said:


> 3 words "Right To Die"
> 
> I would definitely would NOT want to continue "living" under such circumstances.


I get the impression that her husband is not on life support.

So he's not going go die unless someone kills him. That's not what right to die is.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I get the impression that her husband is not on life support.
> 
> So he's not going go die unless someone kills him. That's not what right to die is.


Nevertheless, I reserve the right to choose how and under what circumstances I live. If I choose to end my life by proxy - mercy killing provided he/she is willing to carry out my wishes - then it should be nobody's business but my own.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

chaos said:


> Nevertheless, I reserve the right to choose how and under what circumstances I live. If I choose to end my life by proxy - mercy killing provided he/she is willing to carry out my wishes - then it should be nobody's business but my own.


A living will would have been necessary for ^this^. And, even then, since he isn't bound to life support and/or facing a terminal illness, it likely wouldn't apply in many states/countries.

But disregard that and consider this... assuming the absence of an unrelated and unattached third party designated as the executor of said living will, his wishes would likely have to be carried out by a loved one (parent, sibling, spouse, etc). How many people do you know that would be wiling to sign off on euthanizing someone w/ the mental capacity of a 2-year-old child? And a loved one at that?

Having said all that, I don't necessarily disagree w/ the point that you're trying to make.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

chaos said:


> Nevertheless, I reserve the right to choose how and under what circumstances I live. If I choose to end my life by proxy - mercy killing provided he/she is willing to carry out my wishes - then it should be nobody's business but my own.


I agree if you have complete control over it.

Apparently the law in the USA does not agree.

In some countries now euthanasia is allowed.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

to me, it's cheating and I'd rather be divorced. 

Pete could move to Oregon. 

It's really a bad situation all around.

I told my wife if I was ever injured like that, I would leave. She had a fit and said she would never stray and she would track me down. I wouldn't cheat on her if the roles were reversed.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

On the right to die or euthanasia topic, we have living wills that address this issue and state the parameters under which we'd rather be allowed to die (or in those few states that may allow assisted suicide, to have our spouse decide for us based on that document and our known wishes).

We have explicitly discussed the circumstances in which we'd stay married and have an open relationship for the well partner, and those in which we'd choose a Medicaid Divorce to preserve the long term financial well-being of the well spouse. (Depending on severity and prognosis, we might even continue to live together.)


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*If Shana's greater priority in life is to abandon Pete, so that she can go have her ashes hauled by someone who might be more of a sexual functionary, then do the honorable thing and divorce him. 

And at the same time, please do his family members the service of telling them what it is that you are planning to do, but even more importantly, why, and let them judge you accordingly!

Pretty much in the very same way that our Heavenly Father will come to judge us, all in due time! *


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

I agree Arbitrator


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> to me, it's cheating and I'd rather be divorced.
> 
> Pete could move to Oregon.
> 
> ...


And exactly how -- with the mind of toddler -- would you go about doing this?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Shana is a coward. She would rather dishonor and betray him and her family than get a divorce. If I was her son, I would hate her for degrading the family. Bringing her POS around family get togethers with her husband is particularly classy.

Institutionalizing him is one thing, it makes sense, she has to work full time and take care of two boys but fvcking another man while lying to her H about the state of their marriage (it doesn't matter that he is impaired, it is right).

Lovely family. I wish her boys well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I know a woman in a similar situation. Her husband has early onset dementia and was institutionalised at age 45. By 50 his family could not visit him as the hospital barred them as it took a week to get him stabalised again. Visits from his wife and children sent him into terrible rages.

They advised her to treat him as if he were dead.

Eventually she met someone else and they live together but she refuses to divorce her husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

For those that say she should divorce him, what if Pete is getting supplemental medical insurance as Shana's spouse. Is it still the honorable thing to divorce him and have him lose access to additional medical benefits?


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

coffee4me said:


> For those that say she should divorce him, what if Pete is getting supplemental medical insurance as Shana's spouse. Is it still the honorable thing to divorce him and have him lose access to additional medical benefits?


No, it would not be the honorable thing under those circumstances. But not having personal universal medical insurance isn't honorable either.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> No, it would not be the honorable thing under those circumstances. But not having personal universal medical insurance isn't honorable either.


So married people should each carry their own health insurance? Most people have insurance through work. No work = no insurance. How would that help this guy?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

The only honorable thing to do is uphold the vows you willingly and knowingly took. Anything else is dishonorable, but there are some things less honorable than others. Accepting that you cannot uphold the vows you took and acknowledging that to the family of the victim would be more honorable than taking advantage. You can set up care for your spouse, as well as procure all that is possible to help pay for that care, then leave. In my mind, it's better to be cared for by those who really do care than to be patronized by the one you love. Remember, that person still loves you.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

coffee4me said:


> For those that say she should divorce him, what if Pete is getting supplemental medical insurance as Shana's spouse. Is it still the honorable thing to divorce him and have him lose access to additional medical benefits?


This is what has me deciding that this is a corner case about cheating.

Yes, she is cheating--technically.

But if she is still his wife, is she providing some kind of health insurance that she would not if they are divorced?

It's a sad situation.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

vms said:


> So married people should each carry their own health insurance? Most people have insurance through work. No work = no insurance. How would that help this guy?


By staying married and giving a sh!t. For once in ones life. Life is not fair. Crap happens.

People who would dump their SO in matters like this merely show their colors. When life serves up something bad, run. Find a f buddy.

Is this now the slow rot of "civilized people"? Variable values? Well, the wind is blowing, so I can cheat now.

Fidelity is fidelity, don't let the hamsters go running around justifying what is probably the worst thing one can do.

I hate hamsters.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Insurance is not an issue. It would be covered by the NHS plus possibly insurance of the driver who was at fault.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

What saddens and sickens me is that you are all(maybe not all) trying to justify cheating on someone who has no say in it, but may have been a decent spouse. They likely did not ask for this ailment. Some seem to want to save the honor of the cheater and care little for the sick. 

What has the caretaker spouse done to check into all sources of help available? What steps have they taken to date? If they have tried all possible ways to get help for the sick spouse, and have gotten sitters, meals on wheels, and any other possible help available, they are at least on their way to taking responsibility for their decision. 

Sometimes we have to admit we are not the Florence Nightingale we thought we were. Just because some have a stereotype of being caregivers, doesn't mean they actually have that ability. Each of us is different and sometimes it's more understandable to just step back and do the best we can while being honest with ourselves and everyone else and ask for help, because we cannot do it on our own. 

Remember, infidelity will affect the one who is unfaithful, too. It's effect is negative. It makes the next time all that much easier. It teaches how to get away with it better the next time. It lowers the standards that one might have used previously for justifications. Flat out deciding and finding reasons has to be the worst. Once that door is open and believed to be the correct decision, there will be cheating again with someone else. It's a downward spiral. It's a snowball effect, getting bigger and bigger as it gains momentum.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

coffee4me said:


> For those that say she should divorce him, what if Pete is getting supplemental medical insurance as Shana's spouse. Is it still the honorable thing to divorce him and have him lose access to additional medical benefits?


There are many arrangements that can be made. Cheating is a pretty shytty option. Especially bringing her loser around her family and boys. She stated that she doesn't want to tell her husband that she wants a divorce so I guess banging another man and rubbing it in everyone's face is more acceptable to her.

Speaks volumes about her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> There are many arrangements that can be made.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What other arrangements can be made? That would make her honorable in your eyes? 

1. Divorce her husband and have him lose additional medical benefits 

2. stay married, faithful and live a solitary, celibate life. 

Is there other solutions that I'm missing?


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

coffee4me said:


> What other arrangements can be made? That would make her honorable in your eyes?
> 
> 1. Divorce her husband and have him lose additional medical benefits
> 
> ...


A pillow


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> Catholic wedding vows are usually preceded by three questions from the priest:
> "(Name) and (name), have you come here freely and without reservation to give yourselves to each other in marriage?"
> "Will you honor each other as man and wife for the rest of your lives?"
> "Will you accept children lovingly from God, and bring them up according to the law of Christ and his Church?"
> ...


That's correct. There are only two choices. These are what I learned and said in my first marriage. It doesn't mean I kept them. It only means it's what I must base all subsequent actions and consequences on to take responsibility for what I did and did not do. 

Although, the spouse leaving can make all possible arrangements for the sick spouse to live as well as possible. You see, the sad thing is that the sick spouse, even though devastated by the abandonment, still can be helped to understand what they knew all along, even before the vows. We are all human. Not often we see that sentence used in the manner intended. Copy it into a word document. It could be the last time you see it used this way.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

tdwal said:


> I would think that if he is in long term care that insurance is not covering it anyway, it would either be her burden or the government so that may not be an issue.


I don't think that the couple in the article live in the US it was more a hypothetical question given the responses on the thread and the fact that in the US the way our insurance system works it could very well be case if the couple lived here. People on government disability can have a spouses insurance as supplemental and that covers additional medical and out of pocket costs for the ill spouse.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> There are many arrangements that can be made. Cheating is a pretty shytty option. Especially bringing her loser around her family and boys. She stated that she doesn't want to tell her husband that she wants a divorce so I guess banging another man and rubbing it in everyone's face is more acceptable to her.
> 
> Speaks volumes about her.


Again... this guy now has the mind of a toddler. Do you _honestly_ think that he'd even understand what his wife was saying to him if she were to tell him that she wants a divorce?

We're not talking about a trivial injury here. This injury has fundamentally changed who this guy is as a person. As a result of this, this poor woman has effectively lost her husband. Her children have effectively lost their father. And to assume that this she doesn't feel awful about all of it is a huge stretch, and more than a little ignorant to boot.

And let's not forget that she's not forsaken him at all. Her first responsibility (aside from the well-being of her children, obviously) was to see to her husband's care, and she's done that... even if she's not the person providing the care. And how could she? In addition to raising two boys on her own, she has to work a full-time job to support them!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> And let's not forget that she's not forsaken him at all. Her first responsibility (aside from the well-being of her children, obviously) was to see to her husband's care, and she's done that... even if she's not the person providing the care. And how could she? In addition to raising two boys on her own, she has to work a full-time job to support them!


She has forsaken him in upholding the vows of her marriage which are each of equal value, once she cheats. Compassion should be placed on the husband first, and then, if the wife decides she can no longer be faithful to the vows she made, she should receive compassion based upon her being a human, and then the amount of responsibility she takes for her actions before she divorces him. His family/guardians should be notified and kept abreast of what she is doing and what she will do, as well as being a part of the decision making for the husband. She is no longer able to be trusted with the sole care of her husband once she has committed adultery. That's my opinion. She has broken her vows. How many men here could say they would trust their wife since they have been cheated on? How could this guy agree to being cared for by his cheating spouse?


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

First of all, Gus, minds of brain damaged people do often times improve with the right treatment and as other parts of the brain take over for some of the functions of the dead ones. It doesn't make much of an improvement to get your 'where-with-all' back in many cases at least is stages or periods of time. So in this story, who really knows how bad Pete is. He actually looks decent in the later photo of him. Zolpiden and Stilnox are helping patients grow out of vegetative states and even talk and communicate effectively for a couple of hours before returning veg again.

With this in mind, My friend Dan has three things going on. He gave instructions on how he wants to be treated which incorporates a plan to recover mentally as much as possible. He gave durable medical power of attorney to his cousin who is an attorney with instructions to execute her brother's wishes (Dan's other cousin) he is a surgeon. If Dan is paralyzed or suffers a traumatic brain injury, this guy calls the shots and knows some of the best in the field. He gave durable financial power of attorney to my wife so she can finance herself and have a good life. The divorce option is in the attorney's (cousin's hands). Dan said he's not sure if he would follow through with it but in case his wife strays, he's out. believe it or not, this is a topic we have all broached before and Dan is a man of action. His wife iis pissed he gave the cousins so much power however, he doesn't want to survive a vegetative state and she wants him to hold on. She plans to stay with him forever which is good but she cheated on him once when he was healthy and they reconciled so he doesn't trust her in the regard and would want a way out.

In Pete's case here, he has to have family get attorneys involved, get some of these powerful drugs in his system to improve his mental state just above the threshold of being competent, then exercise his own power of attorney and he's back in the game.

Keep in mind, I don't know if Pete knows, cares, or what part of his brain is damaged to enable this. Not enough details in the first article


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Well you all know me  But I just don't know what side of the fence I'm on here.

On one side I am thinking like others, that if I became tantamount to a vegetable, or infant, I would want my spouse to move on. Hence, divorce me, put me in care somehow, give care to my kids, or by luck, have my life end someway.

The other side says, "ya, put him in a home, divorce him, ....to hell with him, right?"

So not sure what to think here. If there ever WAS a good reason to want affection elsewhere, this is it.

But I will say this, like a commenter said on that website, they can't judge her one way or the other, but perhaps maybe she should refrain from marriage in the future. If she is justified in what she is doing, fair enough...but then maybe she just doesn't need to ever be married again.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Well you all know me  But I just don't know what side of the fence I'm on here.
> 
> On one side I am thinking like others, that* if I became tantamount to a vegetable, or infant, I would want my spouse to move on. Hence, divorce me, put me in care somehow, give care to my kids, or by luck, have my life end someway.
> *
> ...


And this dovetails right in with what I was saying. If done honorably, it can be a reasonable option. Help the children to visit. That's about all the responsibility there would be left. 

It's for the next guy to figure out if he wants a woman who would do this. I imagine all he would have to do is what wmn1's post says. Give someone else the power of attorney. Then again, aren't the vows I posted, then violated and a lie was told before the vows were taken? So, there are the grounds for annulment and the marriage is a joke from the start. Know thy self.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

coffee4me said:


> For those that say she should divorce him, what if Pete is getting supplemental medical insurance as Shana's spouse. Is it still the honorable thing to divorce him and have him lose access to additional medical benefits?


Apparently to some, it's more honorable to abandon him to the worst care possible.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

wmn1 said:


> to me, it's cheating and I'd rather be divorced.
> 
> Pete could move to Oregon.
> 
> ...


Neither of you know what you would really do until you are faced with the situation. We all talk big when we are not faced with the reality of such a horrible situation.

If you were injured in the way that this guy is, you could not leave. With the mental capabilities of a toddler you would not be able to do much more than eat the food put in front of you.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> What saddens and sickens me is that you are all(maybe not all) trying to justify cheating on someone who has no say in it, but may have been a decent spouse. They likely did not ask for this ailment. Some seem to want to save the honor of the cheater and care little for the sick.


I think you've been reading said replies very incorrectly.



2ntnuf said:


> What has the caretaker spouse done to check into all sources of help available? What steps have they taken to date? If they have tried all possible ways to get help for the sick spouse, and have gotten sitters, meals on wheels, and any other possible help available, they are at least on their way to taking responsibility for their decision.
> 
> Sometimes we have to admit we are not the Florence Nightingale we thought we were. Just because some have a stereotype of being caregivers, doesn't mean they actually have that ability. Each of us is different and sometimes it's more understandable to just step back and do the best we can while being honest with ourselves and everyone else and ask for help, because we cannot do it on our own.


Uhhh... OK. :scratchhead: 



2ntnuf said:


> Remember, infidelity will affect the one who is unfaithful, too. It's effect is negative.


OK... and...?



2ntnuf said:


> It makes the next time all that much easier. It teaches how to get away with it better the next time. It lowers the standards that one might have used previously for justifications. Flat out deciding and finding reasons has to be the worst. Once that door is open and believed to be the correct decision, there will be cheating again with someone else. It's a downward spiral. It's a snowball effect, getting bigger and bigger as it gains momentum.


Geez. This is "cheating" in only a very technical, textbook sense. And it's only "cheating" because her husband hasn't consented to it. But here's the thing... HE CAN'T! And he'll never again be possessed of the mental capacity to do so.

No man that _truly_ loves his wife would want her to live the rest of her life w/o the love, affection, and intimacy offered by marriage simply because he is no longer mentally AND physically capable of providing these things for her. And for what?  To spend her days toiling to care and look after a mentally invalid husband while struggling to work a full-time job in order to provide for their children? No. He'd want her to have as full a life as she possibly could, because THAT is what will best enable her to raise their children w/o him.

So... having said all ^that^, I'm more than willing to give her a pass on the "cheating". After all, I can pretty much guarantee you that she's already inflicted a thousand times more anguish upon herself w/ her _own_ thoughts on the matter that anyone here -- or anywhere else, for that matter -- ever could.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

vms said:


> So married people should each carry their own health insurance? Most people have insurance through work. No work = no insurance. How would that help this guy?


If they lived in the USA (they do not) and they divorced. He would get on Medicaid and/or Medicare.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> If they lived in the USA (they do not) and they divorced. He would get on Medicaid and/or Medicare.


Not that it's germane to this particular discussion, but I thought it was possible for someone to continue to carry his/her former spouse on his/her insurance plan...?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> She has forsaken him in upholding the vows of her marriage which are each of equal value, once she cheats. Compassion should be placed on the husband first, and then, if the wife decides she can no longer be faithful to the vows she made, she should receive compassion based upon her being a human, and then the amount of responsibility she takes for her actions before she divorces him. His family/guardians should be notified and kept abreast of what she is doing and what she will do, as well as being a part of the decision making for the husband. She is no longer able to be trusted with the sole care of her husband once she has committed adultery. That's my opinion. She has broken her vows. How many men here could say they would trust their wife since they have been cheated on? How could this guy agree to being cared for by his cheating spouse?





wmn1 said:


> First of all, Gus, minds of brain damaged people do often times improve with the right treatment and as other parts of the brain take over for some of the functions of the dead ones. It doesn't make much of an improvement to get your 'where-with-all' back in many cases at least is stages or periods of time. So in this story, who really knows how bad Pete is. He actually looks decent in the later photo of him. Zolpiden and Stilnox are helping patients grow out of vegetative states and even talk and communicate effectively for a couple of hours before returning veg again.
> 
> With this in mind, My friend Dan has three things going on. He gave instructions on how he wants to be treated which incorporates a plan to recover mentally as much as possible. He gave durable medical power of attorney to his cousin who is an attorney with instructions to execute her brother's wishes (Dan's other cousin) he is a surgeon. If Dan is paralyzed or suffers a traumatic brain injury, this guy calls the shots and knows some of the best in the field. He gave durable financial power of attorney to my wife so she can finance herself and have a good life. The divorce option is in the attorney's (cousin's hands). Dan said he's not sure if he would follow through with it but in case his wife strays, he's out. believe it or not, this is a topic we have all broached before and Dan is a man of action. His wife iis pissed he gave the cousins so much power however, he doesn't want to survive a vegetative state and she wants him to hold on. She plans to stay with him forever which is good but she cheated on him once when he was healthy and they reconciled so he doesn't trust her in the regard and would want a way out.
> 
> ...





2ntnuf said:


> And this dovetails right in with what I was saying. If done honorably, it can be a reasonable option. Help the children to visit. That's about all the responsibility there would be left.
> 
> It's for the next guy to figure out if he wants a woman who would do this. I imagine all he would have to do is what wmn1's post says. Give someone else the power of attorney. Then again, aren't the vows I posted, then violated and a lie was told before the vows were taken? So, there are the grounds for annulment and the marriage is a joke from the start. Know thy self.


The echo chamber is getting awfully loud.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Apparently to some, it's more honorable to abandon him to the worst care possible.


So what would you do? What would your solution be?


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

I agree 2ntnuf.

Also, who is to say that as she gets closer to jess, he husband won't suffer more via care and attention ? I also agree about what steps she's taken to get the best care for him

treatments are improving. The brain's amazing potential for recovery - CNN.com


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Apparently to some, it's more honorable to abandon him to the worst care possible.





EleGirl said:


> Neither of you know what you would really do until you are faced with the situation. We all talk big when we are not faced with the reality of such a horrible situation.
> 
> If you were injured in the way that this guy is, you could not leave. With the mental capabilities of a toddler you would not be able to do much more than eat the food put in front of you.


What's the difference between being cared for by strangers who do their job for money and being cared for by someone who does not keep their vows? I'm not sure there is. Besides, no one said to just abandon the husband. That would be grounds for civil action.


You know what you are capable of long before you take those vows. You just aren't being honest with yourself.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Not that it's germane to this particular discussion, but I thought it was possible for someone to continue to carry his/her former spouse on his/her insurance plan...?


I've never seen an insurance company that does this beyond the finalization of a divorce. There is COBRA after divorce but this only lasts for a short period of time and is expensive.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> I know a woman in a similar situation. Her husband has early onset dementia and was institutionalised at age 45. By 50 his family could not visit him as the hospital barred them as it took a week to get him stabalised again. Visits from his wife and children sent him into terrible rages.
> 
> They advised her to treat him as if he were dead.
> 
> Eventually she met someone else and they live together but *she refuses to divorce her husband.*_Posted via Mobile Device_


Why? Did she ever say? Was it because of guilt? Does she visit him? Or is she treating him like he is dead as they advised? 

If the latter, then only thing I can think of is....can't get certain assets if he is still technically alive.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> I think you've been reading said replies very incorrectly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's all that's required for the vows to be broken. Listen, if you want to rewrite the vows, you can. Just do it in the open and be honest about it before the marriage. 

"If, I decide at some point, you have done something so egregious, or you become incapacitated in some manner that I determine is not conducive to a commitment, I will divorce you. Anything I do after said egregious action, shall be incumbent upon my feelings at the time. I promise limited fidelity and responsibility to you in all things." "I do." hahahaha


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

vellocet said:


> So what would you do? What would your solution be?


If the only way he had medical insurance that provided better care, I'd stay married to keep him on my insurance. 

I might go for a legal separation as that is technically married so he could stay on my insurance, but it would make it clearer that I was moving on with the rest of my life.

Now the woman in the article lives in England, so insurance is not an issue as has been pointed out by MattMatt.

But there might be other issues. For example, what if he has no one else who is willing to be his legal guardian. I would not be comfortable with turning over the legal guardianship of a loved one to the government. The only way to maintain that is to stay married. At least that way he has someone who is looking out for him who is not a gov employee.

There are so many issues that come into play with caring for a seriously ill and/or injured person that it's not so simple as some make it seem here.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Ele, 

first of all, again we don't know how much this guy has progressed and what his treatments are. We are taking her representation of how bad it is but I'd like to see a doctors representation before determining if she's not trying to further justify her infidelity by embellishing her story. 

next, you say "Neither of you know what you would really do until you are faced with the situation. We all talk big when we are not faced with the reality of such a horrible situation." You are wrong. I do know. Cheat free for life despite tragedy and miserable situations. I consider the marriage with my wife 'My bond" and sorry, religiously I believe I will be with her forever. I have every confidence in my ability to go the rest of this life being loyal despite her injury and I know my traits and will power better than anyone here. If I have a 40 year drought while helping my wife and being loyal, I will be rewarded with an eternity of self respect and doing what the lord wanted me to do.

The 7th commandment didn't say "unless she was in a car accident"


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> That's all that's required for the vows to be broken. Listen, if you want to rewrite the vows, you can. Just do it in the open and be honest about it before the marriage.
> 
> "If, I decide at some point, you have done something so egregious, or you become incapacitated in some manner that I determine is not conducive to a commitment, I will divorce you. Anything I do after said egregious action, shall be incumbent upon my feelings at the time. I promise limited fidelity and responsibility to you in all things." "I do." hahahaha


The more words you throw at this argument, the better I feel about my stance.

Let me know when you need a new keyboard. I have a few spares lying around.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

I know this situation is different, but the principle isn't much different.

As someone who was in a sexless marriage, I didn't cheat. You know what I did? Spent time with my kids, worked on the home, and beat off. But I realize she had the extra burden of now caring for him.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vellocet said:


> I know this situation is different, but the principle isn't much different.
> 
> As someone who was in a sexless marriage, I didn't cheat. You know what I did? Spent time with my kids, worked on the home, and beat off. But I realize she had the extra burden of now caring for him.


There is a stark difference between a spouse that _refuses_ to give marital affection and a spouse that will _never again_ be (physically OR -- more importantly -- mentally) capable of doing so.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

2nt, you said "What's the difference between being cared for by strangers who do their job for money and being cared for by someone who does not keep their vows? I'm not sure there is. Besides, no one said to just abandon the husband. That would be grounds for civil action."

I agree. In the case I illustrated above with my friend Dan, he has an extremely good Long Term Care plan and will be cared for very well by his family and a great medical team. So in his story, if his wife is to be a part of that, she's not integral unless she is providing him some type of marital encouragement or support'. Her cheating would destroy this to him. He would rather sit at home with a hot hospice nurse and single than to look at his wife coming up to him straightening herself out to cover up that she had just been banged by another guy.

To the detractors, it does matter to many guys that much.

And btw, Dan's system is good enough that he has the facilities to be cared for by medical professionals and has the ability to learn new friends.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> What's the difference between being cared for by strangers who do their job for money and being cared for by someone who does not keep their vows? I'm not sure there is. Besides, no one said to just abandon the husband. That would be grounds for civil action.


A person can still love and care for a spouse who, like this man in the story, is not able to function as an adult and have another relationship. And a person can love and care for more than one person at a time. She cannot love her husband as she did before because he is not the same as he was before. But she can love him in a way that allows her to take good care of him.

If she divorces her husband, she has no legal right to see him, much less to make sure he's taken care of. Divorcing him is abandoning him. 

Then for anyone else to step in as his someone who has the power of attorney, and the right to direct his care, etc., they have to go to court to fight for that. It's expensive. Generally the guardian has to go to court at least once a year or more often. A member of my family went through this. They exhausted their finances trying to just maintain guardianship.

After that experience, everyone in my family gets a power of attorney that names different people... .who take over if the previous person steps down as power of attorney. But without that one has to go to court.



2ntnuf said:


> You know what you are capable of long before you take those vows. You just aren't being honest with yourself.


Most people have no idea what they are capable of in a harsh situation until that situation hits them for real. I've seen it too many time where a person just goes on so sure what they would do if xyz happens. Then xyz happens and they find out that they cannot do what they pontificated about.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> There are so many issues that come into play with caring for a seriously ill and/or injured person that it's not so simple as some make it seem here.



I don't think anyone thinks this is simple. I watched my mother die in a home. Even with family doing what they could, it was not simple, nor easy. 

My neighbor had no one to help. None of us, her friends, knew what happened to her when she left her apartment. Even her best friends knew nothing of where she was at or what was going on. Only her sons knew. They lived in another state most of the time and in this state a few weeks a year. 

Which do you suggest was easier? Which was simpler? I suggest to you neither is simpler. Neither easier.

You simply show that you advocate infidelity and do not agree to the vows of marriage. That, to me is shocking from someone who claims to be Catholic. Again, it's best to know yourself before the vows. We cannot know all, but we surely can take responsibilty for what we realize about ourselves moving forward. We don't have to leave them to the state. There are church groups, veterans affairs, community organizations, and others who will visit and care for folks just because they are really good people. Some of them visited my own mother. You are painting a picture that does not have to be.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> Keep in mind, I don't know if Pete knows, cares, or what part of his brain is damaged to enable this. Not enough details in the first article


Why all the desperate grasping? Maybe I'm just crazy, but I choose to assume that the author of the article is correct in stating that his cognitive capacity has been reduced to that of a 2-year-old.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> The more words you throw at this argument, the better I feel about my stance.
> 
> Let me know when you need a new keyboard. I have a few spares lying around.


Okay Gus. I know where you stand. Apparently, you can only throw insults. What a man you are. The ladies should be falling at your feet.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> There is a stark difference between a spouse that _refuses_ to give marital affection and a spouse that will _never again_ be (physically OR -- more importantly -- mentally) capable of doing so.


And I realize this, hence my comment about the extra burden she carries by caring for him.

Its why I'm on the fence on this issue. But this would be the only issue in which I'd be on the fence of cheating, because as you stated, he would never again be able to give physical or mental affection again.

All I can say is, this just makes me feel even worse for someone who already had their lives turned upside down.


But what about, for example, a man who developed an erectile problem through no fault of his own and the blue pill doesn't work?

Would that be different to those that might understand her having sex with another man?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> There is a stark difference between a spouse that _refuses_ to give marital affection and a spouse that will _never again_ be (physically OR -- more importantly -- mentally) capable of doing so.


There literally is no difference in the intent of the vows you spoke. 

In the one case, the person withholding, just because they can or some other nonsense, has broken the vows. In the other, the one who steps outside the marriage because of sickness and health issues has broken the vows. Literally, the vows have been broken in both cases. There is no, "but if", in the vows, period.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

I wouldn't make any such assumption, Gus. It was her who said he had the mentality of a toddler. I doubt the author talked to the Doctors and I know England's healthcare system is $hit which brings in my questions on what has done with what could be done elsewhere. Maybe the author is entirely correct but I don't know ...

What I do know is that the guy went from being nearly dead to being able to dance, remarkable progress. Over time, the brain in such people do improve too and she has a vested interest in justifying her actions in order to not make her look as bad so I am open to the possibility that she overstates his current condition. 

Maybe it was toddler stage when he broke out of his funk but now where is he at ? As discussed in an earlier thread, even Alzheimers patients are more aware of their surrounding than many of us believe or give them credit for.

So no desperate grasping.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vellocet said:


> But what about, for example, a man who developed an erectile problem through no fault of his own and the blue pill doesn't work?


Unless he's lost all ten of his fingers and his tongue, he is still more than capable of being an effective lover.



vellocet said:


> Would that be different to those that might understand her having sex with another man?


Only if the husband weren't on board.

And, again, this case is different in that the afflicted spouse is no longer capable of either sexual OR emotional intimacy. After all, many would be more than willing to forego anywhere from some to all of the former so long as the latter is present.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

very good point, Vellocet regarding post 66 and the second scenario.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

Q tip said:


> A pillow


Mercy killing?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> There literally is no difference in the intent of the vows you spoke.
> 
> In the one case, the person withholding, just because they can or some other nonsense, has broken the vows. In the other, the one who steps outside the marriage because of sickness and health issues has broken the vows. Literally, the vows have been broken in both cases. There is no, "but if", in the vows, period.


I'm not arguing that vows haven't been broken in both cases. What I'm saying is that, in the latter case, the (technically) wayward spouse is deserving of some compassion, as well as the freedom and understanding necessary for him or her to live a fulfilling life.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

vellocet said:


> And I realize this, hence my comment about the extra burden she carries by caring for him.
> 
> Its why I'm on the fence on this issue. But this would be the only issue in which I'd be on the fence of cheating, because as you stated, he would never again be able to give physical or mental affection again.
> 
> ...


That's completely different since that man would still know he's married, what marriage is, what sex is, and how to use his hands, tongue and toys with his wife. 

A man with the mentality of a two year old doesn't even know he has a wife or what that means, nor what sex is.

I also don't see this as being entirely about sex!! This woman has lost her husband, essentially, including the companionship and love of a husband. Your man with ED would still be present, and could continue to be her loving companion as well.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> Okay Gus. I know where you stand. Apparently, you can only throw insults. What a man you are.


Nice try.



2ntnuf said:


> The ladies should be falling at your feet.


Again, nice try. Not sure why you'd go there, though. :scratchhead:

Either way, only the _one_ that matters. As for the rest, not so much... but that's only because all but the one lack the opportunity to do so.

:smthumbup:


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> In the other, the one who steps outside the marriage because of sickness and health issues has broken the vows. Literally, the vows have been broken in both cases. There is no, "but if", in the vows, period.


A couple can decide to modify their vows, I think, after the fact. Clearly many do so as they do not stay married until death, for many reasons. Vows or not, life goes on and in extreme circumstances like this, people will do the best they can, vows be damned if necessary. And rightly so, IMO.

And with that in mind, my wife and I made our own vows that have nothing of the traditional in them whatsoever. We designed our vows to honor the relationship we consciously agreed to have.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Enough with the hamster driven rationalization.

Agree ahead of time what to do. I've told my spouse to check me in, divorce and carry on. Don't bother visiting, that's an option. Period. She's agreed.

If she becomes incapacitated, I am hers to the end. She wants me to check her in and D too. I won't.

Not sure where - if a human being becomes a veggie, cheating is OK comes from. I hate hamsters...

It's a personal decision that should be made in advance and included in a living will. That should minimize family issues.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

I agree completely with Qtip above.

And I told my wife the same thing and she said 'screw you I am not leaving and I am yours until the end'. If she chooses that path to stay, I expect it to be with loyalty.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

Let's also remember that the article is written solely from the POV of Shana and nobody else. We're only getting one side of the story. It is very pro bias towards her. Also her 15 year old son Billy, who is very aware of the situation, believes that his father can be brought home to live with them. If he is right, then it blows out of the water a lot of what Shana has been telling about her husband's mental condition being that of a toddler. Just because you talk and walk like a toddler, doesn't mean you have the mental faculties of one.

Jess is either a bottom feeder or simply a fool who fell in love. If its the former, then their relationship will die out fairly quickly when Jess finds another woman without the extra baggage and if its the latter, he will simply fall out of love and dump her. What Shana may not realize is that this "living in limbo" will drive most quality men away from her because they will simply refuse to be anything but a fvck buddy being pulled along by the nose by a woman who may or may not be available to be a wife.

Lastly, as the breadwinner for her family who works 12 hour days, how is she able to find the time and energy for a lover? Most women in her situation would drop dead tired when they arrived home after a grueling work schedule. Not to mention looking after her kids needs. Rest, not sex, is what most of these women crave. Something just doesn't add up.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

vellocet said:


> But what about, for example, a man who developed an erectile problem through no fault of his own and the blue pill doesn't work?
> 
> Would that be different to those that might understand her having sex with another man?


To me his mental age makes this different than the less extreme examples you mentioned. I actually would judge her harshly if she were having sex with a man with the mind of a toddler even if they are legally married. They aren't relationship partners now. Instead it's a care giver relationship.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

I agree Chaos in #78. There's something she's missing and the husband doesn't look that bad in that pic. Not like a guy with a 2 or 3 year old capacity. 

I applaud her work, not her infidelity and she is definitely wrong IMO


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> I agree Chaos in #78. There's something she's missing and the husband doesn't look that bad in that pic. Not like a guy with a 2 or 3 year old capacity.
> 
> I applaud her work, not her infidelity and she is definitely wrong IMO


My SIL is mentally about 2 1/2. She looks like any other woman in their mid-30s in photos. 

I'm going to stop here because the rest of what I'm thinking isn't very nice.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

This article is more than 3 years old. I wonder if there is a follow up story.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I went back and read the full article and I've got two drastically different perspectives depending on how I look at it.

On one hand I would feel like a terrible person if my wife was disabled and I eventually divorced her or stepped out while legally marriage. On the other hand if I were disabled I hope that my wife would eventually find companionship. The thought of her dedicating her life to tending to me but her not being happy is just terrible. It's a no win situation.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> I'm not arguing that vows haven't been broken in both cases. What I'm saying is that, in the latter case, the (technically) wayward spouse is deserving of some compassion, as well as the freedom and understanding necessary for him or her to live a fulfilling life.





2ntnuf said:


> The only honorable thing to do is uphold the vows you willingly and knowingly took. Anything else is dishonorable, but there are some things less honorable than others. Accepting that you cannot uphold the vows you took and acknowledging that to the family of the victim would be more honorable than taking advantage. You can set up care for your spouse, as well as procure all that is possible to help pay for that care, then leave. In my mind, it's better to be cared for by those who really do care than to be patronized by the one you love. Remember, that person still loves you.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

I think, as long as his care would not be dependent on, for example, her insurance, that she should divorce him. Because if she has decided to move on and mess with someone else, then there is no good reason to keep doing so while married to him....whether or not he has the mental capacity of a 2 year old.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> I wouldn't make any such assumption, Gus. It was her who said he had the mentality of a toddler. I doubt the author talked to the Doctors and I know England's healthcare system is $hit which brings in my questions on what has done with what could be done elsewhere. Maybe the author is entirely correct but I don't know ...
> 
> What I do know is that the guy went from being nearly dead to being able to dance, remarkable progress. Over time, the brain in such people do improve too and she has a vested interest in justifying her actions in order to not make her look as bad so I am open to the possibility that she overstates his current condition.
> 
> ...


Here you go...










Now you don't have to reach so far.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

I have seldom heard of 15 year old boys wanting to live with people with the mentality of a "toddler".


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

wmn1 said:


> I wouldn't make any such assumption, Gus. It was her who said he had the mentality of a toddler. I doubt the author talked to the Doctors and I know England's healthcare system is $hit which brings in my questions on what has done with what could be done elsewhere. Maybe the author is entirely correct but I don't know ...
> 
> What I do know is that the guy went from being nearly dead to being able to dance, remarkable progress. Over time, the brain in such people do improve too and she has a vested interest in justifying her actions in order to not make her look as bad so I am open to the possibility that she overstates his current condition.
> 
> ...


I don't know wmn1. It seems like grasping to me as well. This article was written ten years after the accident. It's hard to imagine the largest leaps haven't already happened yet he's still being cared for 24/7. That makes me think it's going to be this way from now on. If we don't believe the writer of the article is even capable of verifying that then what's the point in debating because then it's a conspiracy theory debate rather than a moral debate.

I thought the writer did a good job of giving voices to Mrs Williams as well as both kids as well as her family members both for and against this. I know it would be nice for Mr Williams to have a voice as well but that actually highlights the problem. His mental capacity is such that everyone involved believes his voice is that of a toddler. That is unless we want to believe the article has a bias or spin on it. To me it's speculation to assume that. We have to go on what we have in front of us.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

chaos said:


> Let's also remember that the article is written solely from the POV of Shana and nobody else. We're only getting one side of the story. It is very pro bias towards her.


Fair enough. It's a shame that the author didn't make any effort to interview the husband. :scratchhead:



chaos said:


> Also her 15 year old son Billy, who is very aware of the situation, believes that his father can be brought home to live with them. If he is right, then it blows out of the water a lot of what Shana has been telling about her husband's mental condition being that of a toddler.


Yes. Because a 15-year-old, despondent at having more or less lost his father, should be consulted for his opinion on marriage and relationship issues.



chaos said:


> Just because you talk and walk like a toddler, doesn't mean you have the mental faculties of one.


OK, so maybe he's functionally 3 instead of 2. Or maybe 5. Maybe 10. Maybe 12. Does it matter? By any reasonable measure, he clearly has the emotional and intellectual capacity of a child.



chaos said:


> Jess is either a bottom feeder or simply a fool who fell in love. If its the former, then their relationship will die out fairly quickly when Jess finds another woman without the extra baggage and if its the latter, he will simply fall out of love and dump her. What Shana may not realize is that this "living in limbo" will drive most quality men away from her because they will simply refuse to be anything but a fvck buddy being pulled along by the nose by a woman who may or may not be available to be a wife.


I'll admit to having some of the same thoughts.



chaos said:


> Lastly, as the breadwinner for her family who works 12 hour days, how is she able to find the time and energy for a lover? Most women in her situation would drop dead tired when they arrived home after a grueling work schedule. Not to mention looking after her kids needs. Rest, not sex, is what most of these women crave. Something just doesn't add up.


Gonna have to disagree w/ this. While the logistics are probably a bit erratic (if not outright manic), I'd think that working and taking care of a couple of kids around the clock would make her long for emotional and physical intimacy all the more.

Initially, she would have craved this from her husband, which would have made her miss him all the more. Slowly, she had to come to terms w/ the fact that he'd never be able to give that to her again.

Like I said... heartbreaking all around.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Fair enough. It's a shame that the author didn't make any effort to interview the husband. :scratchhead:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here you go, right back at you Gus:










They're jumbo size, just for you.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Dogbert said:


> Here you go, right back at you Gus:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ha! Thanks for the compliment, I guess.

Honestly, though, I (usually) prefer to drink from the glass.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

I like TAMs sponsored ads. I'm going to click on the one about Hot Russian babes searching for American doggies. Can't wait for one of them to scratch my tummy. Ahhhhh!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Dogbert said:


> I like TAMs sponsored ads. I'm going to click on the one about Hot Russian babes searching for American doggies. Can't wait for one of them to scratch my tummy. Ahhhhh!


Cute Dog Getting His Belly Scratched & Shaking His Leg - English Cream Golden Retriever - YouTube

She's a little on the au naturel side(hairy and masculine looking). 

Edit: No offense to Russian women. I was thinking the picture is usually not representative of reality.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> I don't know wmn1. It seems like grasping to me as well. This article was written ten years after the accident. It's hard to imagine the largest leaps have already happened and he's still being cared for 24/7. If we don't believe the writer of the article is even capable of verifying that then what's the point in debating because then it's a conspiracy theory debate rather than a moral debate.
> 
> I thought the writer did a good job of giving voices to Mrs Williams as well as both kids as well as her family members both for and against this. I know it would be nice for Mr Williams to have a voice as well but that actually highlights the problem. His mental capacity is such that everyone involved believes his voice is that of a toddler. That is unless we want to believe the article has a bias or spin on it. To me it's speculation to assume that. We have to go on what we have in front of us.


If he did not have the mental capacity of a toddler and could instead function as an adult, then he could walk out of the care facility and do whatever he wanted. Because of the fact that he had not taken the action that just about every adult would, it's pretty clear that he's not functioning at an adult level.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> If he did not have the mental capacity of a toddler and could instead function as an adult, then he could walk out of the care facility and do whatever he wanted. Because of the fact that he had not taken the action that just about every adult would, it's pretty clear that he's not functioning at an adult level.


Yes if we peel away the bias, motive, and projection, then that's the only logical conclusion to come to. Sometimes conspiracies are unfounded and based in *what if* thinking. Things like ; what if he really does know but can't articulate; what if the writer is unprofessional and lying; what if it were me; etc.

Those 'what if' scenarios are unfounded conspiracies with zero logic to back them up.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

Frankly my heart goes out to Shana, Pete and their kids. It is a tragic story. It's been over 3 years since this article was published, I hope that they have some peace.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

chaos said:


> Frankly my heart goes out to Shana, Pete and their kids. It is a tragic story. It's been over 3 years since this article was published, I hope that they have some peace.


Me too chaos. This is a no win scenario for everyone.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

vms said:


> My SIL is mentally about 2 1/2. She looks like any other woman in their mid-30s in photos.
> 
> I'm going to stop here because the rest of what I'm thinking isn't very nice.


Go ahead. Launch away. Like I am afraid of you ??

BTW, I know some people who are mentally ill as well and are treated below their capacity because people know they have brain damage but overstate it.

It goes both ways


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> I don't know wmn1. It seems like grasping to me as well. This article was written ten years after the accident. It's hard to imagine the largest leaps haven't already happened yet he's still being cared for 24/7. That makes me think it's going to be this way from now on. If we don't believe the writer of the article is even capable of verifying that then what's the point in debating because then it's a conspiracy theory debate rather than a moral debate.
> 
> I thought the writer did a good job of giving voices to Mrs Williams as well as both kids as well as her family members both for and against this. I know it would be nice for Mr Williams to have a voice as well but that actually highlights the problem. His mental capacity is such that everyone involved believes his voice is that of a toddler. That is unless we want to believe the article has a bias or spin on it. To me it's speculation to assume that. We have to go on what we have in front of us.


I understand your perspective Thundarr and yes, perhaps I am rationalizing something that may be there and may not be there. As Chaos said, I wish there was a follow up story. I still stand by my assessment that it is cheating and that cheaters do try to justify their actions by minimizing them. I do believe those who say the story is based on her version only. 

None-the-less, I appreciate your response. At least you could make it rational and respectful unlike a few others here.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Dogbert said:


> Here you go, right back at you Gus:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



:iagree::rofl:


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Q tip said:


> A pillow



To smother Pete or to hump?


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> Yes if we peel away the bias, motive, and projection, then that's the only logical conclusion to come to. Sometimes conspiracies are unfounded and based in *what if* thinking. Things like ; what if he really does know but can't articulate; what if the writer is unprofessional and lying; what if it were me; etc.
> 
> Those 'what if' scenarios are unfounded conspiracies with zero logic to back them up.


But consider this Thundarr. Not trying to start up another war but read these two links and tell me what you think

He Remained Trapped in Vegetative State for 12 Years. Then He Miraculously Awoke and Had a Jaw-Dropping Story to Tell. | TheBlaze.com

They were waiting for this guy to die off and he knew everything that was going on around him

Brain-damaged man 'aware' of scientists' questions | Science | The Guardian

another brain damaged guy from a car wreck.

In both cases, scientists and Doctors got it wrong.

Study: Some brain injury patients misdiagnosed

a study showing misdiagnoses in England. 

While some here took the initial article at face value based on his condition, I wouldn't necessarily label any deviating thoughts as conspiracies or without logic. 

Personally, while I agree that the situation is tragic and gutwrenching, I feel that anyone who questions the diagnosis, as we have heard from a reporter and the spouse who is moving on, is not necessarily offbase.

The people here questioning her actions are doing it from three perspectives

1) Is it cheating ?
2) How aware is he of what is going on ?
3) Are her actions appropriate ?

I think they are all good questions and while some have been attacked here for questioning it, the opposing viewpoint people haven't even come close to slam dunking it yet


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

That is interesting wmn1 and point taken. There are cases where people recover and also where people wake from a vegetative state. In other words I agree with you that it's no slam dunk.

I do think that ten years is a long time to wait in the wings though for someone to get better and a long time to be alone. Maybe that's why I have a hard time judging this woman as right or wrong. I can't imagine being alone yet at the same time there not being any closure or any way to move forward. Yes I know divorce is a way to move forward and it's what I think she should do. Maybe she's waiting until their oldest is 18 so he can be legally able to make decisions for his dad.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> That is interesting wmn1 and point taken. There are cases where people recover and also where people wake from a vegetative state. In other words I agree with you that it's no slam dunk.
> 
> I do think that ten years is a long time to wait in the wings though for someone to get better and a long time to be alone. Maybe that's why I have a hard time judging this woman as right or wrong. I can't imagine being alone yet at the same time there not being any closure or any way to move forward. Yes I know divorce is a way to move forward and it's what I think she should do. Maybe she's waiting until their oldest is 18 so he can be legally able to make decisions for his dad.


I agree with you completely. It's a crap situation they are all in and I hope it will all work out for the best. Maybe it's possible that he could have gotten better treatment over the years and maybe he's as badly injured as the article represents and there's nothing they could have done. We agree about the divorce part too.

Anyone who knows my posting history knows I am a worse case scenario guy. A worst case scenario person like me is saying 'dammit, he knows and look what's she's doing to him', a possibility. I am a stubborn anti-cheater too. A best case scenario person says 'he has no clue, he's being cared for and no harm no foul', a possibility. A more reasoned approach is one such as yours and you may be hitting the nail on the head.

I am just pleased that medicine and miracles are happening. It gives us all hope just in case any of us are a tragic victim someday, which I pray does not happen.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

wmn1, wow, that article is a true eye opener. Thanks for posting it. It definitely puts a different spin on things. What is even sadder to imagine, is that someone might be in the same position that Shana's husband is in, yet never "visibly" wakes up, but whose mind is fully aware, yet remains trapped inside of a broken body, with no ability to communicate. There may be people who have lived and died, living out that nightmare, without anyone ever knowing. What a terrible tragedy that would be. 

Still, that would not make the heartbreak, or the loneliness, of the living, breathing, functioning spouse, any easier to bear. 

This is just a very sad and thought provoking issue, no matter how you look at it.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

EI said:


> wmn1, wow, that article is a true eye opener. Thanks for posting it. It definitely puts a different spin on things. What is even sadder to imagine, is that someone might be in the same position that Shana's husband is in, yet never "visibly" wakes up, but whose mind is fully aware, yet remains trapped inside of a broken body, with no ability to communicate. There may be people who have lived and died, living out that nightmare, without anyone ever knowing. What a terrible tragedy that would be.
> 
> Still, that would not make the heartbreak, or the loneliness, of the living, breathing, functioning spouse, any easier to bear.
> 
> This is just a very sad and thought provoking issue, no matter how you look at it.


It is sad EI. Very thought provoking and a situation I pray I will never have to face though I am a 'in sickness and in health' type guy. I just like these stories because they show how doctors, family and the injured never give up. What's sad is that I saw a study that it is possible that some in a vegetative state may have been like him, been conscious and knew they were pulling the plug. Sad. 

Here is the guy from that link's bio

Ghost Boy Book | martinpistorius.com

I certainly sympathize with her situation and the kids as well. 

here's another feel good story

Snowboarder Kevin Pearce Back on Slopes After Serious Brain Injury - ABC News


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I would feel for Shana if she wasn't such a coward. If she wants another man, no real shame there, then she needs to stop cake eating.

She has taken a horrible situation and made it worse by being too selfish and cowardly to do what is right.

I feel mostly for her boys. If he truly is unaware of pretty much everything then that at least is a blessing for him.

The boys are aware though. This will bite her in her ass. Life is very hard, I have been through enough to know, but it isn't an excuse to behave poorly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Here is the part about the story that bugs me.



> Quickly, they began a relationship. But telling Jess about Pete was discomfiting. She raised the subject with trepidation, fearing Jess would not want to pursue their relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Basically she was wanting to show this guy just how disabled he was so he'd stay around and F her. Disgusting.

So the guy may have been uncomfortable, but upon seeing her husband would say, "hey, I see what you mean, you need a man!!" and decided to go ahead and meet her needs....while still married to her husband.

Must be a different kind of man than I. Because not only would I not want to f*** a married woman, I'd feel even worse about it knowing the husband already has been dealt a life altering blow.....mental capacity of a 2 year old or not.

So sure, come on over and see just how bad my husband really is so you don't run away. Again, disgusting.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Yup!&#55357;&#56850;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I would feel for Shana if she wasn't such a coward. If she wants another man, no real shame there, then she needs to stop cake eating.
> 
> She has taken a horrible situation and made it worse by being too selfish and cowardly to do what is right.
> 
> ...



I do agree with you, Conan. I do think she's cake eating to an extent. 

Which is why I question her assessment of his condition to an extent. And why I question how a guy who has a mentality of a 2 year old almost a decade ago is still that way when others with similar injuries progress. 

There's something missing in this story but whether true or not, I feel you are right on the $ here


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Here is the part about the story that bugs me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ding ding. Agreed.

Horrible situation but do it with respect for all, not just herself


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