# Do Relationships Fall Apart Easier These Days?



## Administrator

While I realize that the challenges couples face today are much different than they were 20 years ago, sometimes it feels like modern day relationships fall apart much easier. 

What do you feel is the reason for that? Social media? Life styles that have become far too busy?

Do we simply give up too easily?


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## GuyInColorado

I feel like marriage is no longer a death sentence these days. You aren't forced to make something work that shouldn't because of religion or what society told you. It amazes me how many people stay married for the convenience (kids, money) and live an unhappy life.


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## IIJokerII

VS Glen said:


> While I realize that the challenges couples face today are much different than they were 20 years ago, sometimes it feels like modern day relationships fall apart much easier.
> 
> What do you feel is the reason for that? Social media? Life styles that have become far too busy?
> 
> Do we simply give up too easily?


 Whatever reason one wants to find to end a relationship or deem it tiresome, they'll adhere it. There is no blanket foundation, just a multitude of facts convoluted by one undeniable fact, what does my relationship do for ME?!. The WE part died a long time ago. But please, pick any particular instance and save for abuse or mistreatment everyone has a reason nowadays to abandon a relationship.


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## Anon Pink

VS Glen said:


> While I realize that the challenges couples face today are much different than they were 20 years ago, sometimes it feels like modern day relationships fall apart much easier.
> 
> What do you feel is the reason for that? Social media? Life styles that have become far too busy?
> 
> Do we simply give up too easily?



Your premise is wrong.

The challenges couples face today are pretty much the same as they were 20 years ago, the only difference is that today we are no longer expected to suffer in silence, or grin and bear it, or habitually deprioritize ourselves in order to remain married.

People don't walk out of a marriage over flimsy or temporary problems. They never have and they never will. Whether the left behind spouse agrees or not, leaving a marriage has always been and always will be serious business and not taken lightly.


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## Relationship Teacher

Anon Pink said:


> Your premise is wrong.
> 
> The challenges couples face today are pretty much the same as they were 20 years ago, the only difference is that today we are no longer expected to suffer in silence, or grin and bear it, or habitually deprioritize ourselves in order to remain married.
> 
> People don't walk out of a marriage over flimsy or temporary problems. They never have and they never will. Whether the left behind spouse agrees or not, leaving a marriage has always been and always will be serious business and not taken lightly.


I see it as going from suffering in silence to suffering in exposure. Instead of individuals dealing with relational problems between partners, they are now aired to friends, family and social media. Not only do the individuals that are publicly voicing their problems divorce themselves of responsibility, they also accept the "advice" from others, which is typically slanted towards refusal of forgiveness.

I disagree that people don't walk out over flimsy or temporary problems. This over-exposure of problems actually escalates and blows them out of proportion. Small problems become big problems when the 'victim' has moral support from many others on their side. Campbell and Manning's _Microaggression and Moral Cultures_ explains a lot of this behavior, although it wasn't targeted for romantic relationships.

In fact, we are now in the era of self-expressive marriages, or all-or-nothing marriages. These arrangements are composed of individuals that ask "what am I going to get out of this relationship" instead of (principally) "what can I put into this relationship".

As was hinted at first, we are moving towards a more unforgivable stance to perceived acts of emotional aggression. This means that the 'victim' will or must experience emotional trauma, as refusing to forgive results in a permanent emotional wound. We left behind the "stay together no matter what" arrangements (thank goodness) but seem to have forgotten to take commitment and forgiveness with us into our new arrangements.

Yes, relationships fall apart easier these days. Many relationships that can become totally blissful are discarded as if they were trash. Much of the fault is on society for engendering this mentality. We can unlearn it and replace it with respect, acceptance and forgiveness.


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## Anon Pink

Relationship Teacher said:


> I see it as going from suffering in silence to suffering in exposure. Instead of individuals dealing with relational problems between partners, they are now aired to friends, family and social media. Not only do the individuals that are publicly voicing their problems divorce themselves of responsibility, they also accept the "advice" from others, which is typically slanted towards refusal of forgiveness.


I would hope the scenario you describe is one that is outgrown at some point in early adulthood. It doesn't take a relationship expert to know that there are two sides to every story. 



> I disagree that people don't walk out over flimsy or temporary problems. This over-exposure of problems actually escalates and blows them out of proportion. Small problems become big problems when the 'victim' has moral support from many others on their side. Campbell and Manning's _Microaggression and Moral Cultures_ explains a lot of this behavior, although it wasn't targeted for romantic relationships.


Small problems become big problems when they are not dealt with. At any given time here on TAM, there are usually a few threads involving a young couple that is in crisis over a series of small problems. That crisis is caused by an inability to effectively communicate and no amount of forgiveness will alter the inability to communicate. However failure to learn better communication will result in relationship failure.

I am unfamiliar with the article you referenced but look forward to reading it.



> In fact, we are now in the era of self-expressive marriages, or all-or-nothing marriages. These arrangements are composed of individuals that ask "what am I going to get out of this relationship" instead of (principally) "what can I put into this relationship".


Very few people enter marriage aspiring to put everything they've got into making it work. I would go so far to advise that goal be cause to NOT get married. We enter marriage because we are starry eyed and crazy in love and as a result we *think* we've got the best chance of making it work. Only once the bumpy roads hit do we realize that if we want to have a good marriage we have to be willing to make it work and sometimes that means forgiveness but most times, IMHO, it means learning to be a better spouse in order to get a better spouse.




> As was hinted at first, we are moving towards a more unforgivable stance to perceived acts of emotional aggression. This means that the 'victim' will or must experience emotional trauma, as refusing to forgive results in a permanent emotional wound. We left behind the "stay together no matter what" arrangements (thank goodness) but seem to have forgotten to take commitment and forgiveness with us into our new arrangements.


Perhaps what we have neglected is not forgiveness but life long learning? Few enter marriage with the perfect skill set required to cope with life's challenges not only as a couple but also as an individual. Perhaps that's what we see happening today? Our helicoptered children are growing up and are not skilled enough to cope with life as an individual, let alone as a couple.



> Yes, relationships fall apart easier these days. Many relationships that can become totally blissful are discarded as if they were trash. Much of the fault is on society for engendering this mentality. We can unlearn it and replace it with respect, acceptance and forgiveness.


Perhaps you are right and relationships are falling apart easier today than they were 20 years ago. I still assert the challenges young couples face today are essentially the same as they were back then. Maybe young couples today are less well equipped to take responsibility for making it work.


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## arbitrator

*Add the sad fact that the mega-trillion dollar family law business dictates the command that it does, I really feel that they at going to make things foremostly easier but rather pricey for divorce to happen, i. e. No-fault divorce laws and rules of court. The courts are tired of contested trials and simply want to be nothing more than a "stamp pad" where the litigants shell out their thousands of dollars and have the court validate the wishes of the person who has the greatest likelihood of shelling out the lions share of the money!

To quote the traveling preacher from  O Brother Where Art Thou?, "it's all about the money, boys!"*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thread the needle

VS Glen said:


> While I realize that the challenges couples face today are much different than they were 20 years ago, sometimes it feels like modern day relationships fall apart much easier.
> 
> What do you feel is the reason for that? Social media? Life styles that have become far too busy?
> 
> Do we simply give up too easily?


No. It's about the same. 

It is not clear if you are talking about marriages or unmarried dating or ONS off tinder or POF. 

Individuals are waiting longer to tie the knot if at all and that is a very good and responsible thing to do since divorce is so costly and painful and the cause is often a lack of maturity and experience.


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## Relationship Teacher

Anon Pink said:


> I am unfamiliar with the article you referenced but look forward to reading it.


Firstly, you make some very astute observations and arguments. I greatly enjoyed reading your post.

Go here to read about the aforementioned work by Campbell and Manning

Where microaggressions really come from: A sociological account | The Righteous Mind

This is a link to the full work as well:

Microaggression and Moral Cultures | Jason Manning and Bradley Campbell - Academia.edu


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## Vinnydee

My marriage is almost 50 years old. All of our friends are similarly situated. When I was young a divorced woman was seen as a damaged woman. Women who had premarital sex were ****s and damaged goods not suitable for marriage, just someone you can have casual sex with. We had no internet or cable TV to make divorce into sitcoms and cheating the subject of movies and TV shows. When I married, I married a 20 year old virgin after having sex with all of my previous girlfriends. I feel hypocritical about it now but back then that is what most of us men did. There were women to have sex with and women to marry.

Despit the stigmas, even good girls were having sex with men if they were engaged or thought that they would marry someday. Premarital sex and cheating goes on despite what society and religion think about it. We are governed by our hormones and when emotions come into play, we all make bad decisions. Now we have TV sitcoms about divorced people, cheating and casual sex. We are exposed to those things all the time until they do not feel as bad as they used to. Men and woman see how a husband or wife should behave from TV and movies. There are those who get their idea of what marriage and relationships should be from the media and if it does not work out that way, they are dissatisfied. 

We have very large websites for cheating spouses to hook up with others and free porn. The internet is filled with posts from husbands who want their wives to act and behave like what they see in porn. If they do not, they grow dissatisfied and seek it elsewhere. Today people are used to divorce, casual sex and cheating. They see if every week on their TV's or the movies. It is not shocking or carry a stigma like it did in my younger days. Divorce is also much easier to get today. When i lived in Texas it costs you $250 and an even split of the property and you were divorced in 3 months. My neighbors would divorce every time they had a major argument. They were on their 5th divorce when we moved. My best friend was on his 3rd wife in 3 years. Back in the ancient times where I lived, there was also a lot more religious people who just did not go to church on Easter and Christmas. For Catholics there was the problem that if you divorced, you could not get remarried in a church again, unless you knew the right people and made good donations to get your marriage annulled. 

Now, after the first wedding, no one cares how they get married the subsequent times. The point is that unhappy couples stuck together and found ways to work things out. Now, it is much easier to just get up and leave. I am seeing younger couples we know, divorce at an alarming rate. Back in my day I did not see that until the 70's. I think we all have seen the studies that show the divorce rate keeps climbing over time, as does the cheating rate. It is so much easier to cheat and divorce now that it was when I was young.

Personally I do not believe monogamy is workable for many marriages and think that someday we will have short term marriage contract that are renewable. It sounds crazy but if you get into a 5 year marriage contract that has all the same protections and laws that we have now for alimony and child support, what is the big deal if you simply extend it for another 5 years every time if you are happily married. On the other hand if you are not happily married you can plan for the end of the marriage when the contract expires and have a smoother transition and prepare for it.


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## NextTimeAround

Relationship Teacher said:


> I see it as going from suffering in silence to suffering in exposure. Instead of individuals dealing with relational problems between partners, they are now aired to friends, family and social media. Not only do the individuals that are publicly voicing their problems divorce themselves of responsibility, they also accept the "advice" from others, which is typically slanted towards refusal of forgiveness.
> 
> I disagree that people don't walk out over flimsy or temporary problems. This over-exposure of problems actually escalates and blows them out of proportion. Small problems become big problems when the 'victim' has moral support from many others on their side. Campbell and Manning's _Microaggression and Moral Cultures_ explains a lot of this behavior, although it wasn't targeted for romantic relationships.
> 
> In fact, we are now in the era of self-expressive marriages, or all-or-nothing marriages. These arrangements are composed of individuals that ask "what am I going to get out of this relationship" instead of (principally) "what can I put into this relationship".
> 
> As was hinted at first, we are moving towards a more unforgivable stance to perceived acts of emotional aggression. This means that the 'victim' will or must experience emotional trauma, as refusing to forgive results in a permanent emotional wound. We left behind the "stay together no matter what" arrangements (thank goodness) but seem to have forgotten to take commitment and forgiveness with us into our new arrangements.
> 
> Yes, relationships fall apart easier these days. Many relationships that can become totally blissful are discarded as if they were trash. Much of the fault is on society for engendering this mentality. We can unlearn it and replace it with respect, acceptance and forgiveness.


Please explain to us this need to forgive. What does the forgiver get out of that?


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## NextTimeAround

Vinnydee said:


> My marriage is almost 50 years old. All of our friends are similarly situated. When I was young a divorced woman was seen as a damaged woman. Women who had premarital sex were ****s and damaged goods not suitable for marriage, just someone you can have casual sex with. *We had no internet or cable TV to make divorce into sitcoms and cheating the subject of movies and TV shows. *When I married, I married a 20 year old virgin after having sex with all of my previous girlfriends. I feel hypocritical about it now but back then that is what most of us men did. There were women to have sex with and women to marry.



There are lots of films dealing with adultery and infedelity starting from the date of 1915. You need only go to IMDB.com and do a keyword search,


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## Relationship Teacher

NextTimeAround said:


> Please explain to us this need to forgive. What does the forgiver get out of that?


We need to forgive to end the emotional trauma that a past hurt caused us. We aren't letting the perpetrator off the hook; we are doing it for ourselves. That said, relationships can move beyond tough moments of they choose to learn from mistakes and live in the moment.

when we say that something is unforgivable, we are making a future commitment to emotional trauma. The worst thing we can do is keep that pain with us. The perpetrator wins if we do so, but actually loses if we forgive and move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NextTimeAround

Relationship Teacher said:


> We need to forgive to end the emotional trauma that a past hurt caused us. It is possible to move onwith one's life without having to involve others. We aren't letting the perpetrator off the hook; we are doing it for ourselves. Then how does that keep a couple together. If forgiving someone else is an act for the forgiver's benefit,isn't that kind of selfish? That said, relationships can move beyond tough moments of they choose to learn from mistakes and live in the moment. One can choose to learn from past mistakes - one's own and the mistakes that others have made that should not have been overlooked -- without the involvement of others.
> 
> when we say that something is unforgivable, we are making a future commitment to emotional trauma. That is your opinion and ONLY your opinion. For me deciding that something is unforgivable helps me to be more decisive with my life choices in the future. The worst thing we can do is keep that pain with us. One way of keeping the pain with us is by insisting that we must forgive the person who hurt us. The perpetrator wins if we do so Wins what? , but actually loses if we forgive and move on. So you are after retribution after all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane

> While I realize that the challenges couples face today are much different than they were 20 years ago, sometimes it feels like modern day relationships fall apart much easier.


Are the challenges really that different from 20 years ago? I remember 1996. It wasn't that different from today as far as marriage goes. 

Divorce rates have been *dropping *since the 90's:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divor...age_and_Divorce_Rates_in_the_US_1990-2007.png

In 1996, cell phones were new-ish and were not smart phones. The internet wasn't so much a thing, so not as many forums for people to be louder about their problems, but louder doesn't mean more.


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## Anon Pink

Relationship Teacher said:


> Firstly, you make some very astute observations and arguments. I greatly enjoyed reading your post.
> 
> Go here to read about the aforementioned work by Campbell and Manning
> 
> Where microaggressions really come from: A sociological account | The Righteous Mind
> 
> This is a link to the full work as well:
> 
> Microaggression and Moral Cultures | Jason Manning and Bradley Campbell - Academia.edu




Thank you. I've enjoyed our discourse as well. I particularly relate to your assertion that unforgivable is making a commitment to future or continued emotional trauma. Whether we label our decision not to allow a past hurt any more head space as forgiveness or simply letting go, it is a useful skill to have and to teach.

I found the paper last night and began reading it. It certainly does seem to point the finger at a lack of coping skills combined with a drive to be a victim. But I also found it revealing that the helicoptered young adults, who grew up having Mommy and Daddy fight their battles for them are now dropping off their slights and hurts with another set of authority figures. I have a nephew who has wrapped himself so tightly into his "I'm a victim" flag I have a difficult time keeping my mouth shut. He was absolutely helicoptered and had every second of every day tightly managed and controlled and now at 21 the kid can't deal with anything.

Thank you so much for broadening my horizons.


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## Fozzy

Couples face the same challenges they always have, even though they take different forms. Do relationships fall apart more easily now? The vulnerable ones do, yes. The anchoring force of societal shame has largely been removed from marriage, so weak marriages do tend to die more easily. 

There's a positive flipside to this however. While people have less problems with "airing their laundry", part and parcel to that is a greater exchange of ideas and information. People now have access to tools, books and information they can use to improve their marriage. So for the people that are motivated enough to try to save their marriage, there is more help now than there ever has been. People don't have to be held together by shame anymore--they actually have a chance to be happy.


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## Relationship Teacher

Anon Pink said:


> Thank you. I've enjoyed our discourse as well. I particularly relate to your assertion that unforgivable is making a commitment to future or continued emotional trauma. Whether we label our decision not to allow a past hurt any more head space as forgiveness or simply letting go, it is a useful skill to have and to teach.
> 
> I found the paper last night and began reading it. It certainly does seem to point the finger at a lack of coping skills combined with a drive to be a victim. But I also found it revealing that the helicoptered young adults, who grew up having Mommy and Daddy fight their battles for them are now dropping off their slights and hurts with another set of authority figures. I have a nephew who has wrapped himself so tightly into his "I'm a victim" flag I have a difficult time keeping my mouth shut. He was absolutely helicoptered and had every second of every day tightly managed and controlled and now at 21 the kid can't deal with anything.
> 
> Thank you so much for broadening my horizons.


I think it is hard to argue with the assertions made, especially considering punishment of bullying is on the rise and bullying is not declining.

Adults are the ones fostering and enabling this mindset. I take it one step further and apply it to relationships. Just consider that emotional violence is the one thing that does not have to hurt. A physical act of aggression will always do damage, but a word does not have to. In relationships, increasing emotional intelligence and personal responsibility increases relational success and engenders heightened levels of intimacy. We often hear that XYZ act should hurt one's feelings or be grounds for divorce. I think that logic is unfortunate, as it is a commitment to unhappiness. We should commit to happiness, whether or not a relationship succeeds.

A lot of my focus is on handling or communicating with "victims". As much of the emotional violence comes from an individual that already feels victimized. It is amazing how easily and quickly a bully (in school, workplace or relatonships) can be disempowered.


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## 2ntnuf

VS Glen said:


> While I realize that the challenges couples face today are much different than they were 20 years ago, sometimes it feels like modern day relationships fall apart much easier.
> 
> What do you feel is the reason for that? Social media? Life styles that have become far too busy?
> 
> Do we simply give up too easily?


As always, it's about choices. The more choices you have, the more giving up or just not putting up with as much, looks better. The choices today are better than they have been in the past. There are support groups for all manner of issues, whether real or invented and distorted. There are many ways to get validation for almost anything we choose to do. Someone is bound to offer a shoulder to cry on and a way out.

So, it comes down to internal forces, intestinal fortitude, character, morals, or whatever you want to call them. It isn't easy, but it is easy to find someone to say, "Aw, I'm so sorry. Give me a hug. That feels great. Tell me what they did? I know how to make them pay. You're so lovely. Etc."

Today, there are more challenges with increasing ways to communicate privately. We will do many things in private that we won't do in public. That's always been true, but there are many more ways we can find privacy or maybe privacy and anonymity. 

I think life is more complicated today.


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## 2ntnuf

Relationship Teacher said:


> We need to forgive to end the emotional trauma that a past hurt caused us. We aren't letting the perpetrator off the hook; we are doing it for ourselves. That said, relationships can move beyond tough moments of they choose to learn from mistakes and live in the moment.
> 
> when we say that something is unforgivable, we are making a future commitment to emotional trauma. The worst thing we can do is keep that pain with us. The perpetrator wins if we do so, but actually loses if we forgive and move on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think we do punish ourselves, but is it only forgiveness, or is it something else? I see forgiveness without understanding, explanation, nor an apology, as acceptance and patronization. I think it borders on arrogance. I'm not sure if I disagree, or just don't understand well enough.


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## coffee4me

Relationship Teacher said:


> I see it as going from suffering in silence to suffering in exposure. Instead of individuals dealing with relational problems between partners, they are now aired to friends, family and social media. Not only do the individuals that are publicly voicing their problems divorce themselves of responsibility, they also accept the "advice" from others, which is typically slanted towards refusal of forgiveness.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree that people don't walk out over flimsy or temporary problems. This over-exposure of problems actually escalates and blows them out of proportion. Small problems become big problems when the 'victim' has moral support from many others on their side. Campbell and Manning's _Microaggression and Moral Cultures_ explains a lot of this behavior, although it wasn't targeted for romantic relationships.
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, we are now in the era of self-expressive marriages, or all-or-nothing marriages. These arrangements are composed of individuals that ask "what am I going to get out of this relationship" instead of (principally) "what can I put into this relationship".
> 
> 
> 
> As was hinted at first, we are moving towards a more unforgivable stance to perceived acts of emotional aggression. This means that the 'victim' will or must experience emotional trauma, as refusing to forgive results in a permanent emotional wound. We left behind the "stay together no matter what" arrangements (thank goodness) but seem to have forgotten to take commitment and forgiveness with us into our new arrangements.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, relationships fall apart easier these days. Many relationships that can become totally blissful are discarded as if they were trash. Much of the fault is on society for engendering this mentality. We can unlearn it and replace it with respect, acceptance and forgiveness.



Interesting article thanks for posting it. It gave a name to the differences I see in how I raise my children. I usually say I'm old school but after reading that I'd say my kids are raised with an honor code rather than majority of their peers who are raised in victimhood. 

I'd like to hear more about how it is that you think society can unlearn and replace this trend. I honestly don't see it happening. 

I understand where you are coming from about forgiveness. The thing is I believe that many people in relationships do forgive, over and over and over again until they give up. Typically the person they are forgiving has a victim mentality and doesn't take responsibility for themselves, it's never their fault and they expect forgiveness. 

You said that verbal aggression is forgivable and a person should be able to move past it and live in the moment. I get that but there are times when the verbal aggression is forgivable but not forgettable. In that moment the person revealed their true thoughts and you gained information that made you reevaluate your choices. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Relationship Teacher

coffee4me said:


> Interesting article thanks for posting it. It gave a name to the differences I see in how I raise my children. I usually say I'm old school but after reading that I'd say my kids are raised with an honor code rather than majority of their peers who are raised in victimhood.
> 
> I'd like to hear more about how it is that you think society can unlearn and replace this trend. I honestly don't see it happening.


Adults must lead the way. This means that as adults, we must show our children how to accept verbal aggression and how to best manage our emotions. This entails building our own emotional intelligence. If we argue in front of our children, we are showing them how to hit the emotional buttons of others but also (most importantly) we are showing them how to receive the hurtful words. Children learn what is good and bad, but also learn how they should feel. 


> I understand where you are coming from about forgiveness. The thing is I believe that many people in relationships do forgive, over and over and over again until they give up. Typically the person they are forgiving has a victim mentality and doesn't take responsibility for themselves, it's never their fault and they expect forgiveness.
> 
> You said that verbal aggression is forgivable and a person should be able to move past it and live in the moment. I get that but there are times when the verbal aggression is forgivable but not forgettable. In that moment the person revealed their true thoughts and you gained information that made you reevaluate your choices.


I agree that many instances can't be forgotten. But when that memory does erupt, if it was truly forgiven, it will quickly subside. Sometimes an act that initially was forgiven will cause new pain in the future. The process is the same, it must be forgiven again. Often, individuals will say they forgive out of perceived necessity. Never do this.

To forget, we must sharpen our focus on the present moment. This skill is building mindfulness. It is an incredible skill to master in relationships. Imagine if you were able to react only to the present moment with no concern over the past. It is incredible.

In my relationship, I take forgiveness a step further. I don't even accept my partner's apologies. This is not to hold things against her. It is done to release her from her pain. I am very capable of managing my feelings and do not need her to beg or plead for forgiveness. Being mindful, I can almost instantly move on from any emotional pain that I do feel.


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## poida

Vinnydee said:


> My marriage is almost 50 years old. All of our friends are similarly situated. When I was young a divorced woman was seen as a damaged woman. Women who had premarital sex were ****s and damaged goods not suitable for marriage, just someone you can have casual sex with. We had no internet or cable TV to make divorce into sitcoms and cheating the subject of movies and TV shows. When I married, I married a 20 year old virgin after having sex with all of my previous girlfriends. I feel hypocritical about it now but back then that is what most of us men did. There were women to have sex with and women to marry.
> 
> Despit the stigmas, even good girls were having sex with men if they were engaged or thought that they would marry someday. Premarital sex and cheating goes on despite what society and religion think about it. We are governed by our hormones and when emotions come into play, we all make bad decisions. Now we have TV sitcoms about divorced people, cheating and casual sex. We are exposed to those things all the time until they do not feel as bad as they used to. Men and woman see how a husband or wife should behave from TV and movies. There are those who get their idea of what marriage and relationships should be from the media and if it does not work out that way, they are dissatisfied.
> 
> We have very large websites for cheating spouses to hook up with others and free porn. The internet is filled with posts from husbands who want their wives to act and behave like what they see in porn. If they do not, they grow dissatisfied and seek it elsewhere. Today people are used to divorce, casual sex and cheating. They see if every week on their TV's or the movies. It is not shocking or carry a stigma like it did in my younger days. Divorce is also much easier to get today. When i lived in Texas it costs you $250 and an even split of the property and you were divorced in 3 months. My neighbors would divorce every time they had a major argument. They were on their 5th divorce when we moved. My best friend was on his 3rd wife in 3 years. Back in the ancient times where I lived, there was also a lot more religious people who just did not go to church on Easter and Christmas. For Catholics there was the problem that if you divorced, you could not get remarried in a church again, unless you knew the right people and made good donations to get your marriage annulled.
> 
> Now, after the first wedding, no one cares how they get married the subsequent times. The point is that unhappy couples stuck together and found ways to work things out. Now, it is much easier to just get up and leave. I am seeing younger couples we know, divorce at an alarming rate. Back in my day I did not see that until the 70's. I think we all have seen the studies that show the divorce rate keeps climbing over time, as does the cheating rate. It is so much easier to cheat and divorce now that it was when I was young.
> 
> Personally I do not believe monogamy is workable for many marriages and think that someday we will have short term marriage contract that are renewable. It sounds crazy but if you get into a 5 year marriage contract that has all the same protections and laws that we have now for alimony and child support, what is the big deal if you simply extend it for another 5 years every time if you are happily married. On the other hand if you are not happily married you can plan for the end of the marriage when the contract expires and have a smoother transition and prepare for it.


I like it. A very realistic suggestion actually.
Women won't like it though. Less financial security for them.


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## poida

They don't fall apart easier, people ALLOW them to fall apart because the stigma of cheating and divorce in society is negligible.

I have issue with the fact that a partner can cheat, divorce and be no worse off in society, in fact probably better off financially.

These days we don't say "what a cheating wh*re/pr*ck, don't go near them!", we say "Oh well, it just wasn't meant to be"

I don't think that societies views on cheating and divorce are healthy at the moment.

If we as a society aren't willing to uphold the intent of marriage (monogamy and loyalty), and extricate those who boldly and openly desecrate those morals, then we should just get rid of any financially binding clauses/obligations of marriage and only have partnership relationships.


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## Anon Pink

poida said:


> They don't fall apart easier, people ALLOW them to fall apart because the stigma of cheating and divorce in society is negligible.
> 
> I have issue with the fact that a partner can cheat, divorce and be no worse off in society, in fact probably better off financially.
> 
> *These days we don't say "what a cheating wh*re/pr*ck, don't go near them!", we say "Oh well, it just wasn't meant to be"
> 
> I don't think that societies views on cheating and divorce are healthy at the moment.*
> 
> If we as a society aren't willing to uphold the intent of marriage (monogamy and loyalty), and extricate those who boldly and openly desecrate those morals, then we should just get rid of any financially binding clauses/obligations of marriage and only have partnership relationships.



Men have always had a free pass to cheat and face ZERO consequences. The reality is that these days women enjoy the same societal censor free aftermath of infidelity. Lamentable as it is that cheaters aren't tossed out of their homes with nothing and no recourse when their children are ripped away...oh wait that was only women who faced that consequence.


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## coffee4me

Relationship Teacher said:


> Adults must lead the way. This means that as adults, we must show our children how to accept verbal aggression and how to best manage our emotions. This entails building our own emotional intelligence. If we argue in front of our children, we are showing them how to hit the emotional buttons of others but also (most importantly) we are showing them how to receive the hurtful words. Children learn what is good and bad, but also learn how they should feel.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that many instances can't be forgotten. But when that memory does erupt, if it was truly forgiven, it will quickly subside. Sometimes an act that initially was forgiven will cause new pain in the future. The process is the same, it must be forgiven again. Often, individuals will say they forgive out of perceived necessity. Never do this.
> 
> 
> 
> To forget, we must sharpen our focus on the present moment. This skill is building mindfulness. It is an incredible skill to master in relationships. Imagine if you were able to react only to the present moment with no concern over the past. It is incredible.
> 
> 
> 
> In my relationship, I take forgiveness a step further. I don't even accept my partner's apologies. This is not to hold things against her. It is done to release her from her pain. I am very capable of managing my feelings and do not need her to beg or plead for forgiveness. Being mindful, I can almost instantly move on from any emotional pain that I do feel.



I understand your comments in the above post I don't think they work with most people. 

Forgive, forget, live in the moment teaching our kids to hit emotional buttons and receive hurtful words. Can all be setting someone up to be abused. I'd rather teach my kids to shut down someone is out to push their emotional buttons and receive criticism but not personal attacks. 

I don't believe that most marriages end over the first forgivable act of verbal aggression or because someone can't forget. Are you suggesting that people must forgive and forget over and over if the person they are married to is unable/unwilling to change? This is what I see happening in most marriages that break down. 

Lastly, you said that you don't let your wife apologize to you because you are releasing her from pain, you are capable of handling your emotions. You don't need her to beg and plead. Did you ever think that her apologizing to you is HER way of releasing her own pain? Perhaps she begs and pleads because you aren't allowing her to release her pain, her way. 


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## Relationship Teacher

coffee4me said:


> I understand your comments in the above post I don't think they work with most people.
> 
> Forgive, forget, live in the moment teaching our kids to hit emotional buttons and receive hurtful words. Can all be setting someone up to be abused. I'd rather teach my kids to shut down someone is out to push their emotional buttons and receive criticism but not personal attacks.
> 
> I don't believe that most marriages end over the first forgivable act of verbal aggression or because someone can't forget. Are you suggesting that people must forgive and forget over and over if the person they are married to is unable/unwilling to change? This is what I see happening in most marriages that break down.
> 
> Lastly, you said that you don't let your wife apologize to you because you are releasing her from pain, you are capable of handling your emotions. You don't need her to beg and plead. Did you ever think that her apologizing to you is HER way of releasing her own pain? Perhaps she begs and pleads because you aren't allowing her to release her pain, her way.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No. My partner is instantly relieved when I deny her apology. I am informing her that it is not needed. It's already in the past. She doesn't need to beg for forgiveness, her emotional mind thinks she does. I refuse to take any power over her, as the typical concept of forgiveness implies. Forgiveness is for ourselves. She is just afraid to drop her guard sometimes and accept this reality. " It's true, I really am not holding something against you."

As far as my advice and perspective as it relates to bullying (in relationships or in school), you can either accept emotional poison or reject it. If you accept it, then you have to manage emotions. If you reject poison, you don't have to do anything. Any person can do this. 


Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coffee4me

Relationship Teacher said:


> No. My partner is instantly relieved when I deny her apology. I am informing her that it is not needed. It's already in the past. She doesn't need to beg for forgiveness, her emotional mind thinks she does. I refuse to take any power over her, as the typical concept of forgiveness implies. Forgiveness is for ourselves. She is just afraid to drop her guard sometimes and accept this reality. " It's true, I really am not holding something against you."
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I find it strange that twice you have said she doesn't need to BEG for your forgiveness. I've never in my life felt that I needed to beg someone's forgiveness. 

Your statements above sound manipulative. "Her emotional mind thinks she does". "She is just afraid to drop her guard". 

"I deny her apology" and "I refuse to take any power over her". You take away her power by not letting her express remorse openly to you. 



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## Relationship Teacher

coffee4me said:


> I find it strange that twice you have said she doesn't need to BEG for your forgiveness. I've never in my life felt that I needed to beg someone's forgiveness.
> 
> Your statements above sound manipulative. "Her emotional mind thinks she does". "She is just afraid to drop her guard".
> 
> "I deny her apology" and "I refuse to take any power over her". You take away her power by not letting her express remorse openly to you.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My friend,

You are making assumptions.

When she is sorry, it is because she *thinks* she has committed a horrible relationship crime. She doesn't do so because of my actions. She, like i and everyone else, learned what is right and wrong when growing up and in other relationships.

Whether it is "begging" or not, the traditional definition of forgiveness is absurd. We forgive ourselves, not others. So why should I hold that power over someone by accepting their apology? Why should I play into and promote that logic? I help free her from her mental prison if she feels that way. It isn't controlling in any manner to do so. I don't say "I reject your apology". I say that she has no need to apologize. I just want to enjoy every moment. She knows this concept as well, except when she becomes emotional.

If you consider holding nothing against her being "manipulative" then that is your definition. If she is asking for forgiveness, then it is because she fears a grudge on my part. She fears that the moment can't be blissful. Showing that this is not the case is a wonderful start to a wonderful day.

Thanks


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## coffee4me

Relationship Teacher said:


> My friend,
> 
> 
> 
> You are making assumptions.
> 
> 
> 
> When she is sorry, it is because she *thinks* she has committed a horrible relationship crime. She doesn't do so because of my actions. She, like i and everyone else, learned what is right and wrong when growing up and in other relationships.
> 
> 
> 
> Whether it is "begging" or not, the traditional definition of forgiveness is absurd. We forgive ourselves, not others. So why should I hold that power over someone by accepting their apology? Why should I play into and promote that logic? I help free her from her mental prison if she feels that way. It isn't controlling in any manner to do so. I don't say "I reject your apology". I say that she has no need to apologize. I just want to enjoy every moment. She knows this concept as well, except when she becomes emotional.
> 
> 
> 
> If you consider holding nothing against her being "manipulative" then that is your definition. If she is asking for forgiveness, then it is because she fears a grudge on my part. She fears that the moment can't be blissful. Showing that this is not the case is a wonderful start to a wonderful day.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks



How long have you been a "relationship teacher?" 


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## 2ntnuf

> Whether it is "begging" or not, the traditional definition of forgiveness is absurd.


Not sure what the "traditional" definition is? I see each one of us as an individual with individual needs and therefore with a slightly different definition of forgiveness. What I need is not what someone else needs. 




> We forgive ourselves, not others.


This is true, but we can only forgive ourselves and let it go when we know the one we love is not harmed by what we have done or said. Otherwise, it's acceptance of what we have done and moving on with a wound that never can heal. 




> So why should I hold that power over someone by accepting their apology? Why should I play into and promote that logic?


If what your wife needs to feel better is not important enough for you to hear her out and not dismiss her feelings, I don't understand how she can feel anything, but disrespected and belittled.




> I help free her from her mental prison if she feels that way.


Only if she has not hurt your feelings. I don't know anyone who is perfect and has never had their feelings hurt. Sure, sometimes we do it and don't mean it. In that case, maybe she doesn't need to apologize, technically. If you don't listen to her, you invalidate her feelings. In turn, you take a chance of hurting her feelings. 




> It isn't controlling in any manner to do so. I don't say "I reject your apology". I say that she has no need to apologize. I just want to enjoy every moment. She knows this concept as well, except when she becomes emotional.


I disagree that it isn't controlling. You aren't allowing her to be who she is and accept that she has feelings. Whether those feelings are justified or not, she has them all the same.


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## Ynot

Relationship Teacher said:


> Yes, relationships fall apart easier these days. Many relationships that can become totally blissful are discarded as if they were trash. Much of the fault is on society for engendering this mentality. We can unlearn it and replace it with respect, acceptance and forgiveness.


How do YOU or anyone else know that a relationship could become "totally blissful"? 
This goes back to the whole topic of permanence. The evolution of technology has made the world a much smaller place than it was just years ago. We are living thru an era of unprecedented change. 
Of course relationships are going to fall apart easier these days, just as most of our youthful relationships changed as we left the block we lived on to attend school. And then moved on from elementary school to junior high school and again to high school and from there to college and from college to our professional careers. The difference is that the relatively stable societies that we formerly existed in are changing just as rapidly as we are. Nothing is permanent in the world and never was, it is just our perceptions are finally catching up with reality.


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## Relationship Teacher

2ntnuf said:


> If what your wife needs to feel better is not important enough for you to hear her out and not dismiss her feelings, I don't understand how she can feel anything, but disrespected and belittled.


It is you that is implying dismissal, disrespect and belittlement. Your lack of imagination is your failure here. I don't dismiss her feelings. I embrace them. We talk about her feelings, and why she feels that way, instead of false forgiveness. 

I already mentioned to you that she agrees with me. She told me this before we were even dating. Do you want to change reality? What do you get out of it?



> Only if she has not hurt your feelings. I don't know anyone who is perfect and has never had their feelings hurt. Sure, sometimes we do it and don't mean it. In that case, maybe she doesn't need to apologize, technically. If you don't listen to her, you invalidate her feelings. In turn, you take a chance of hurting her feelings.


False assumption, again. What gives you the basis to assume that there is no conversation unless I say "I forgive you"?





> I disagree that it isn't controlling. You aren't allowing her to be who she is and accept that she has feelings. Whether those feelings are justified or not, she has them all the same.


Completely wrong.

The emotional mind is not rational. This isn't a derogatory statement. It is factual and based on basic psychological principles. When someone is emotional, you destroy relationships by taking the emotional mind seriously instead of the truth or person's directed thoughts.

Saying that I don't control forgiveness over her isn't controlling her. It allows her to push that button herself. She knows this. She believes this, herself. Any negative moment is immediately de-escalated with this approach.


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## WhyMe66

VS Glen said:


> While I realize that the challenges couples face today are much different than they were 20 years ago, sometimes it feels like modern day relationships fall apart much easier.
> 
> What do you feel is the reason for that? Social media? Life styles that have become far too busy?
> 
> Do we simply give up too easily?


I think the ease of divorce, "no fault" or "uncontested," the collapse of morals, has made relationships far more disposable. People don't need to work on them anymore, they change partners like they change underwear. More often, sometimes.


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