# Never say Never



## Pit-of-my-stomach

I was having a discussion with someone who said "I would never cheat"... That conversation hit me in between the eyes because what this person said was almost word for word what my W had said to me before she had her affair... 

It prompted me to put together some information I've learned while trying to understand and cope with what is happening to my family and write this in response...

I don’t think the majority of people involved in affairs, or even drugs for that matter set out with the intention of becoming drug addicts or adulterers. It is a snow ball effect. Most people don’t even know it’s rolling until its already gained significant speed and can very easily get out of control. 

The DS doesn’t always realize what is happening or they see it through *“the fog”.* A bad (often dismissed as “innocent”) decision starts the ball rolling, which forces another bad decision, which may be difficult to cope with, which is rationalized, which kicks in all of the defense mechanisms, which force more bad decisions…. Etc, etc, etc…

You are not as strong as your mind, and in affair situations your mind *IS ON DRUGS*. It most often starts as something “innocent” and somewhere along the line it starts… Chemicals get naturally released into the brain.. when fed small doses of "love drugs" i.e. *phenylethylamine* (or "PEA" -- a naturally occurring trace ammine in the brain. PEA is a *natural amphetamine*, which leases *Dopamine. *Dopamine stimulates the production of *oxytocin*). This begins "intrusive thinking," where it seems like your brain is fixated on the object of your affection. When your heart rules your head, there's actually one part of your brain running the other: the cortex is the area of your brain that controls logical thinking, while emotions are processed by the limbic system. When too many happy chemicals like PEA and dopamine flood your brain, they head straight for the limbic system. 

The DS is now on the addiction path. Then your mind can begin a process of *defensive mechanisms* which can and will shield you from realizing what is really happening, and before you know it you lose control. But most often I believe the DS thinks they are in control of the situation as does any “addict”. They don’t see it; after all that *IS* a defense mechanism. *It’s your mind’s way of protecting itself*, an unconscious process that tries to reduce the anxiety associated with *instinctive desires*. The most well known and common in an adulterer would be *Rationalization, Denial, and Repression. *Read any story here or anywhere else about “the fog” or a DS’s behavior the characteristic signs of these defense mechanisms are present.

*Denial* is probably one of the best known defense mechanisms, used often to describe situations in which people seem unable to face reality or admit an obvious truth (i.e. "more than friends”) Denial is an outright refusal to admit or recognize that something has occurred or is currently occurring. 

Denial functions to protect the ego from things that the individual cannot cope with (guilt?). While this may save us from anxiety or pain, denial also requires a substantial investment of energy. Because of this, other defenses are also used to keep these unacceptable feelings from consciousness.

*Rationalization* is a defense mechanism that involves explaining an unacceptable behavior or feeling in a rational or logical manner, avoiding the true reasons for the behavior. Rationalization not only prevents anxiety, it may also protect self-esteem and self-concept. Rationalization also kicks in when confronted by perceived moral failure or wrongdoing (i.e.; DDay); people tend to blame other people or outside forces. 

*Repression* is another well-known defense mechanism. Repression acts to keep information out of conscious awareness. (i.e. selective memory regarding conversations or acts with the OM/OW) Sometimes we do this consciously by forcing the unwanted information out of our awareness, which is known as *suppression*, but it is usually believed to occur unconsciously.

*Sublimation, Displacement, Projection and Intellectualization* are other defense mechanisms which play small parts in the process of mental self protection in affair or addiction situations…

Often the DS attributes “outside forces” to what happened that lead to an affair, (i.e. "it just happened") Outside forces don’t get people into these situations. But “inside forces” can… I’m just saying this is a powerful thing.

In the end, A person is responsible their actions and the decisions they made to get to that point. I only mentioned what I did to point out that your brain + affairs (oxyticon, dopamine, etc) love drugs) are dangerous, situations. It could happen to almost anyone, don’t kid yourself.


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## notreadytoquit

Great post!


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

I don't explain any of this because of justification for my wifes actions...

I have educated myself on some of these things and shared some of what I've learned with you because it helps me cope with this situation.

As with many people who come here seeking answers and advice on how to cope, Ideally I would love to make it through this with a stronger marriage, and my child's family intact. Can that happen? I don't know. I just don't want to contribute to the reason it couldn't.

Knowing what I know, takes the sting out of some of it. It helps to understand and better fight the emotions that get in the way of my goals. Because of all of my anger and hurt, it's difficult to say and do what is needed to deal with this situation and effect the end goal.

The end goal is and always has been to give my family the best chance I can give them to heal from this. If recovering my marriage is possible, I don't want my own insecurities, hurt and defensiveness to be what stands in the way of that. Yes, her actions are the reason I have these emotions and this hurt. That is her fault. But it is my choice to allow those things to effect my actions moving forward. It would be easy to just blame her for making me feel this way and make her responsible for what happens as a result. But, does that help me? 

Anyway, it has helped me to understand these things. If I understand them, I can try to control my reactions. If I can control my actions, I hope that gives me a better chance of success. 

I'm sharing because I hope some of this information can help one or more of you and gives back to this community for everything each of you has done and continues to do to help my family through this...

Pit~of~my~Stomach

p.s. I'd like to mention I got the info on love drug chemicals from an ariticle Affaircare forwared me a month or so ago about the chemistry of love, and the defense mech information is directly from Freud's studies on the subject. Rest is pieces parts from the massive storage of posts and artciles all taking space in my head.


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## triton1984

I can attest to the never say never portion of this.....and I was the one that cheated. 

I first started looking on this board before I had cheated because I wanted things to be better in my marriage........I was looking for ways to improve my marriage, increase the desire my wife had for me, etc. I found great ideas but also saw how many bad marriages/relationships were out there. Somewhere along the way I forgot about the "I would never do that". It started with needing and wanting more conversation......I thought what harm can some email exchanges be? It wasn't long until I was anxiously awaiting that next email, that proceeded to chat, and then to actually meeting this woman. 

Don't have the time or desire right now to rehash what followed other than to say my wife found out, affair was ended.....she hasn't left, we are in counseling, doing pretty good now but everything changed in the way we both think about marriage.

Your post discusses the drugs the body produces, I've read that...and can say there was a "high" during the affair....at the time no thoughts were going on about if it was worth it. I suppose that is the "fog" that is discussed. In hindsight was it worth it......NO, even though we communicate better now than ever, the sexual intimacy is the best it has ever been.....I would still trade what we have now for being able to say I had remained faithful to my wife.


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## mommy2

:iagree:

Great post. 

My H also said he would never cheat. In fact, it was so out of character for him, when he talks about people cheating, he says it with disgust, as if he forgets he is one of them now. 

How true - I said I would NEVER stay with someone that cheated - you cheat, you're gone. I never left, I never let him leave. Never say never.................


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## the guy

poms,
Thanks for the time in putting this down. I do appreciate it.


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## remmons

Great post!

Wow! By reading this, I felt like that I was "seeing" what my wife was going through. This may not be the explanation of what she is going through, but a lot of what was posted here almost mirrors her moods, actions and thought processes. I was faithful in my relationship to her, but she sought out the company of another, and I could not win her back due to his "charming personality".


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## Affaircare

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Very well-written and right on target factually. 

Fog does not mean they aren't feeling it--obviously disloyals do have an emotional attachment to their OP--but it does mean that the ability to think in a clear-heading, rational way is clouded. I've seen time and again where a loyal, having known their spouse for decades, will say "Oh he/she would never do that!" and in their normal, unfogged way of thinking they wouldn't! But the fog is partially due to the brain chemistry, and partially due to the defense mechanisms. And WOW you explained it so clearly! 

Well done! :smthumbup:


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## jamesa

Top post. Someone who can apply their intellectual resources to a problem as you seem to have should be successful. I hope things work out for you.


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## MsLonely

I would like to challenge this: Quote: The DS doesnt always realize what is happening or they see it through the fog. A bad (often dismissed as innocent) decision starts the ball rolling, which forces another bad decision, which may be difficult to cope with, which is rationalized, which kicks in all of the defense mechanisms, which force more bad decisions. Etc, etc, etc 
Are you sure they're all bad decisions?
In a LS points of views, they're bad and evil.
In a DS points of views.
They're good decisions, moreover, fun decisions. 
Furthermore, they're decisions of awakening.
After being unhappy in the marriage, it's the first few steps in search of happiness. 
It could be, the DS found a great opposite sex who could share heart to heart conversation.
It could be, a initial plan as a preparation of getting divorce.
It could simply be falling in love with the affairs.
They're decisions but not necessarily all bad and all foggy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhereAmI

I used to say that I'd never cheat. I thought it was disgusting and selfish. I'm at a point in my marriage where I understand it all too well. I'd love to have someone there who'd listen to me and show that they genuinely care. In the beginning of any relationship, that's always there.

I recognize that even if I were to go outside of my marriage and have the new relationship work out, that I'd have another set of issues to overcome with that person at some point. Relationships are all simple in the beginning. 

I'm determined to stay faithful. There are things I'd love to do right now (a yoga class for example) to relieve some of this stress, but I'd be putting myself in a tempting situation. I'm still fairly certain that I'd stay true, but the fact that I understand the appeal of an affair scares the hell out of me. I've put myself on anti-social lockdown.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

MsLonely said:


> I would like to challenge this


Really?


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## remmons

WhereAmI said:


> I used to say that I'd never cheat. I thought it was disgusting and selfish. I'm at a point in my marriage where I understand it all too well. I'd love to have someone there who'd listen to me and show that they genuinely care. In the beginning of any relationship, that's always there.
> 
> I recognize that even if I were to go outside of my marriage and have the new relationship work out, that I'd have another set of issues to overcome with that person at some point. Relationships are all simple in the beginning.
> 
> I'm determined to stay faithful. There are things I'd love to do right now (a yoga class for example) to relieve some of this stress, but I'd be putting myself in a tempting situation. I'm still fairly certain that I'd stay true, but the fact that I understand the appeal of an affair scares the hell out of me. I've put myself on anti-social lockdown.



This hits a little close to home for me. I have friends telling me that I should be looking for a female companion to share my thoughts and feelings with, or even if it is just for a dinner or a movie. But I still have a strong enough connection to my wife to where I don't even feel like looking.

With our separation, it is difficult. Lonliness is a powerful emotion to overcome at times, but I am not willing to put myself out on the market just yet. I am avoiding situations that could lead me to temptation. I avoid talking to ladies who show even a hint of interest for me.

I will remain faithful to the end, if there is an end to our marriage. In the mean time, I will keep my hopes up and continue to live the right way. In the beginning, my wife and I use to have wonderful heart-to-heart talks, but then life, a child and reality kicked in. We started to take life for granted and forgot about what it took to keep us happy and connected. Maybe, after some much needed healing time, we will once again reconnect. But in the mean time, I will remain faithful. I will let her open up her eyes to what she has done, and fix the broken connection that has come between us.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

MsLonely said:


> I would like to challenge this:


There is no gray area here. People who have experienced the fog tend to repaint situations and circumstances to come to grips with their own *Cognitive dissonance*. Cognitive dissonance is the *psychological phenomenon* describing the sensation of discomfort felt when there is a discrepancy between what someone already knows or believes (i.e. Right & Wrong), and new information or interpretation (i.e. Conflicting desires). When such tensions arise, steps are taken to decrease that tension by changing one's thinking. Cognitive dissonance is the Fog *“jumping off” spot *for all of the defense mechanisms which become present as a result of the *“rebuilding of reality”* in the fog.



MsLonely said:


> Are you sure they're all bad decisions?


Yes. I am certain. They are all bad decisions. 

The baseline which I am using to determine “bad” vs. “good” is not relative or subjective. *You are married.* With the promise you made when you confirmed your vows comes a *moral and ethical obligation of faithfulness. *

It doesn’t “depend” on your definition of “bad”. There is *no moral ambiguity* regarding a person's *decision to commit adultery*. If a person chooses to continue in denial, rationalizations, and justifications or ignore and paint these facts to suit their ability to digest what is happening or has happened, they can choose to do that and they will get very good at it. Just realize, you and your subconscious mind are doing it. 

This is concrete. These decisions are wrong, they are “bad, evil, immoral, sinful”. Whatever. 



MsLonely said:


> In a LS points of views, they're bad and evil.
> In a DS points of views. They're good decisions, moreover, fun decisions.


No, As I mentioned above. Despite an internal need to paint this gray, it can’t be. They are undeniably “bad” decisions. 

Again, a bad decision is one in which you override your senses and choose an option that, at some level, you know you should not. 

When a person ignores the signals in their own system and makes bad decisions (by the definition here) they will generate the consequences of bad decisions. There will be misery and disappointment. Guaranteed. It's only a question of when, to whom and how much. 

The *effects of bad decisions *consists of some or all of the following:

** *The individual *compromises* themselves. 

** *they don't get what they actually want or they do get what they want but at the *expense of others*, which *damages* multiple relationships amongst the people involved in the dynamic.

** Anxiety, distress, guilt, depression *etc., etc. Which can lead to physical symptoms, aches and pains etc



MsLonely said:


> Furthermore, they're decisions of awakening.


Awakening to what? To "awaken" is "to be made more aware of." To use the term awakening when justifying an affair can only be referring to “awakening” to a disloyal spouses own selfish needs and wants and how they have convinced themselves that they are paramount. 

*They do indeed awaken. *Not awaken somehow enlightened, *awaken addicted*. As an addict (even by definition a *"soft addiction"*, or an *Behavioral addiction*) (also called process addiction or non-substance-related addiction) which is a recurring *compulsion condition *whereby a person engages in a specific activity despite harmful consequences to the person's health, mental state, or social life. 

In this state a disloyal spouses decision making has become compromised. 

a Disloyal Spouse's new found foggy “awakening” should include some of the following enlightened behaviors.

* *Denial.* Addicts often deny that there is an addiction. Denial is a way to ignore or dismiss the idea of affair addiction and avoid seeing a problem. Sometimes, addicts will acknowledge being addicted, but nevertheless dismiss the significance of the addiction. 

* *Selfishness. *Addictions/Affairs make people selfish and blind them. Nothing is more important than the addiction itself. Everything is geared towards getting the dependence met, and the deeper into affair addiction the greater the selfishness.

* *Covert Behavior. *Addictive behaviors eventually become a source of concern for others. Consequently, in order to meet the needs of the addiction, addicts often hide their affairs and the behaviors from others. 

* *Irresponsible and Undependable. *In the throes of an affair addiction, addicts must pay far more attention to the needs of their addiction than the needs of anyone or anything else. Accordingly, addicts often become unable to meet social expectations and responsibilities, whether in school, work, relationships, or social roles.


I only had time to answer part of your challenge... I will try to finish when I can.


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## Affaircare

Just thought you guys in this thread might enjoy seeing this: 

What Is Disloyal Fog?

Pit-of-my-stomach--all I can say is "You've been reading!" LOL :lol: I am excited to see how clear and down-to-earth you're making some of this. Obviously a person could go pretty deep into some psychological type talk when describing what "the fog" is, yet the way you write it is so easy to understand. Just so you know I am going to ask Chris to sticky this one because it just so well explains why someone we have known for YEARS suddenly is acting so out of character that it makes no sense!


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## MsLonely

Thanks for your response to my challenges. I appreciated your sharing.
For you, as the loyal spouse, they're all sinful decisions in marriage.
For the disloyal spouses that have little idea about how the brain works with all these psychological terms, their cheating decisions, in their views, are good decisions. The marriage contract is effective only when both parties want to keep that marriage contract.
When either one heads half way of termination of the marriage vows, for him/her, cheating could be just a trail, a preparation that might follow by a final termination in all the commitments, vows and moral rules. 
Ppl are free to get married and make a vow, signing a marriage contract; yet, don't forget, they're also free to terminate that vow and check out at anytime they want. Cheating tells you, the marriage has hitted a dead end. It's right or wrong; good or evil, it's in trouble.
No matter how evil you want to name it, cheatings are not evil decisions. It's simply a decision. It's awakening from an unhappy marriage. The worst consequence is to break the vow and get divorced which they've considered for a long time already.
After the marriage contract is terminated, who cares about which spouse is right or wrong?
All the understanding of psychological terms and moral judgements will be forgotten when the love story ends.


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## MsLonely

I don't mean to challenge you more. Just share some brutally honest views that are in DS's minds.
Of course it's a fog but they're aware.
They're not idiots.
They know what cheatings mean.
If they make a so called bad decision, at a certain level, they've given up their marriage long ago already.
It could be the issue of custody making them hesitated in getting divorced.
It could be they still love their spouses as family members, but not lovers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## remmons

Affaircare said:


> Just thought you guys in this thread might enjoy seeing this:
> 
> What Is Disloyal Fog?
> 
> Pit-of-my-stomach--all I can say is "You've been reading!" LOL :lol: I am excited to see how clear and down-to-earth you're making some of this. Obviously a person could go pretty deep into some psychological type talk when describing what "the fog" is, yet the way you write it is so easy to understand. Just so you know I am going to ask Chris to sticky this one because it just so well explains why someone we have known for YEARS suddenly is acting so out of character that it makes no sense!


I could have used this 2 months ago. I should have recognized the signs back then, but like they say, hindsight is 20/20.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

MsLonely,

Please feel free to challenge my statements as much as you would like. I don't know that you’re going to accept any of the conclusions and facts regardless of the absolutes that are offered. 

I hope you can allow the two points which can not be debated. Everything I research and anything I offer begins with these two things. 

Infidelity; 1. It is wrong. 2. You choose to do it.

I don't know that you want to or perhaps "can" accept them (responsibilty?) right now. I believe it's evident that you are personally struggling with a journey through the fog. The residual psychological effects of the “condition” are still present in your thinking. 

As Freud’s research on the psychology of the human mind indicates, these Rationalizations are based subconsciously as part of your self protective instincts. Like most DS’s at some stage of “the fog”, you can’t listen or “hear” this logic. It’s is triggering cognitive dissonance. Everything I mentioned essentially throws the switch on a nuclear war happening in your head. 

From what I read every point and DS thought process you have offered is littered with all of the defense mechanisms mentioned. Lot's & lot's of coping baggage. Excuses, rationalizations, justifications, deflection, impact denials, blame shifting, etc, etc... 

I’m not going to be able to convince you or break down the “protective walls” you have built around your psyche. I’m not trying to, I don't know you. That's your journey. I’m just offering what I’ve learned trying to make it through mine.


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## MsLonely

My journey is both being cheated and cheated.
I have been through both situations. So I'm not rationalizing for either side. I simply want to point out some facts.
This research is still a study and not yet a theory. It's also a kind of rationalizartion with its purpose to put all the blames on the cheating spouse. 
After putting all the blames, the cheating spouse apologise, ok then wants a divorce even when the loyal spouse would love the cheating spouse to stay in the marriage. 
I'm not talking about psychology but what's happened in many cases in TAM, the LS fighting with the DS, in the end, the DS apologised and quit. Leaving the LS all alone only to find he/she is the only person believing in marriage vows, being faithful but being abandoned.
You said, infidelity is wrong, are you sure?
What if domestic violence is involved and the cheating spouse was physically and mentally abused? 
Never said never. There's no absolute answers to explain every single marriage issue.
Marriage in the end is a piece of paper. Who has made mistakes and bleached the marriage contract isn't a main point. For the one who made mistakes still has a perfect right to check out the marriage.
If this study is only made to make the LS happy, but make the DS check out the marriage, its academic value is limited.


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## MsLonely

We get married because of love not because of logic. We get divorced because love is dead not because of logic.
Marriage is not a thing that you can put inside a box to say it must be all logical.
Ppl don't always follow and believe in logic.
If they do, they shouldn't get married at all.
Because marriage is a combination of desires and craziness. 
It's a kind of ideology. You have a dream of happiness, to pursue it, you get married. When you find it's not what is expected, you wake up from the dreams, you start cheating and the worst situation is to fight for custody, that's probably the main reason to stay married.


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## Saffron

Hmmmm, interesting debate. 

I guess I'd just say that if someone cheats, because they want a divorce and think their marriage is dead, then they aren't really in a fog. 

If someone cheats, but never really intends to divorce their spouse, then "the fog" helps to justify the cheating.

Basically, not everyone who cheats experiences "the fog". 

My husband cheated, but knew he never wanted to divorce me. He even told the OW at the begining of the EA that he wasn't going to leave his wife. She was new, interesting, and stroked his ego. The way he described what he was feeling and thinking during the affair correlates with "the fog". He even said her attention was like a drug. 

As the EA/PA progressed, he started to ponder a divorce. However, he never gave it any serious thought, since the thought was too painful (his words, not mine). But it also seemed to make the affair seem less wrong by thinking it could be "more".

Living in the fog helped him enjoy the 10% fantasy he had with her, but then come home to me and live the 90% reality. When I found out about the affair and made the 10% fantasy a 100% possiblity by saying "divorce", he said it was like waking up to his worst nightmare. Whatever small percentage of doubt that ever made him think the word "divorce" during the affair evaporated in that moment.

These are all things we've discussed in detail over hours of conversation. I'll show him this post tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure he'll say "yup, that's it exactly." (If not I'll post any corrections) I don't think he's just saying this to try and make me feel better either. I've heard plenty of details about the affair that hurt like hell, there's no more sugar coating at this point.

Anyway, I still can't imagine myself becoming a DS. But if I did, I'm pretty sure it would be with my eyes wide open. A reason could be to void my 17 years of monogamy. Would it be wrong? Yes. Would I be in a fog? No. Will I do it? Not if I want a better and more fulfilling marriage. Which I do and so does my husband.


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## MsLonely

@Saffron,

The tendency for cheating husbands, they only want to get sex & appreciation (ego stroke) from the OW. Most of them won't decide to leave their families,kids and wives. Few of them would really abondon the family and go away with the OW.

For cheating wives who have EA + PA, they have somewhat given up their marriage already.

They stayed married for some reasons, mostly because they still love their husbands as family members, not lovers though. Also, when kids are involved, together with financial issues, they feel much hesitated to get divorced.

Women are much more aware when having an affiar. Usually, husband won't detect anything until things get serious.

By the time they found out wives' EA+PA, they're already on the verge of divorce.

As for your husband's affair, it's very typical.

After fk, the married man goes home.


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## OhGeesh

Ms.Lonely just so you know I agree much more with your take on cheating kudos!!

Post 24 I know many men who fall into this category. It's just a game, just a challenge, hit "it" a few times, then quit it. ZERO emotional connection then on to the next one all while the wife, kids, and family are at home.

No doubt men and woman are wired very different.


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## Saffron

MsLonely... sucks either way, doesn't it. 

Hubs affair was big on the ego stroke. He only had sex with her twice over 7 months (lots of outdoor make-out sessions at their cars though), so for him it was more about that excited "new" feeling he got while getting to know her. Granted, we were having sex 2-3 times a week, so I'm sure that's why he didn't have sex with her more often. Having a girl fawn over him was the big draw and too much to resist.

Always get irritated thinking about the fact he got to date someone else for 7 months while married to me. Meeting for drinks, lunch, or even a movie. That part of the affair will be much harder for me to overcome than the physical part. Giving her his time meant more than giving her his tongue.... or other body parts.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

MsLonely said:


> This research is still a study and not yet a theory.


lol. Ok, Whatever makes you comfortable. Water is not wet. 



MsLonely said:


> It's also a kind of rationalizartion with its purpose to put all the blames on the cheating spouse.


lol. No, no. It’s not the DS’s fault. This is all psycho-babble blame game head shrinking. Strictly for entertainment value. The sky is not blue.



MsLonely said:


> You said, infidelity is wrong, are you sure? What if domestic violence is involved and the cheating spouse was physically and mentally abused?


Yes, I’m sure. 

What if? What if? What if? What if? What if?. Keep asking yourself and keep digging for a justification for it, I’m confident you will find one that you can hang onto. “Must… find…. Grey… a…r…e…a…”

This whole study on human physiology and the psychology of what occurs in the human mind in some affair situations ("fog"), partially as a result of naturally occurring chemicals in the brain is all an elaborate hoax. I made everything up in the hope of cornering you into believing the DS had some responsibility for their own choices. Had you going for a minute there didn’t I? lol. 

Truth is, It’s not your fault. It just happened, it could happen to anyone. I mean who could blame you, after all you went through?. You deserve to be happy, and the marriage has been over for a longtime.



MsLonely said:


> There's no absolute answers to explain every single marriage issue.


I do have an absolute that is not the answer to any marriage issue. Adultery. 



MsLonely said:


> Marriage in the end is a piece of paper.


I’m sorry you feel that way. 



MsLonely said:


> Who has made mistakes and bleached the marriage contract isn't a main point.


No, the main point is to understand what has happened why it may have happened. Understand and accept responsibility for the role you may have played in the situation and to support an environment of healing. 



MsLonely said:


> For the one who made mistakes still has a perfect right to check out the marriage.


Yes, they do have a right to check out. It’s called divorce.



MsLonely said:


> If this study is only made to make the LS happy, but make the DS check out the marriage, its academic value is limited.


lol. Yes, I’m sure that was the intention of these studies. To punish and guilt poor injured DS and to make the LS happy. LS: “Hey, I just got run over by a truck! But, now that I understand that there was a brake system failure which caused this and I know exactly how the brake components were manufactured and what went wrong… I feel a lot better!.” “Oh, would you mind handing me that chunk of my skull over there on the curb? I feel great now that I know it’s not my fault, but I might need that skull fragment to hold my brain in my head. Thanks!”



MsLonely said:


> Because marriage is a combination of desires and craziness. It's a kind of ideology.


I guess as sad as that is, for some this may be true. I hope those people don’t have children. 



MsLonely said:


> You have a dream of happiness, to pursue it, you get married. When you find it's not what is expected, you wake up from the dreams,


God forbid you actually have to wake up from those dreams. Real life and reality is not something anyone should be forced to endure. Work? Responsibility? Accountability? – NO!!!!!!!! Better idea! What we need here is a NEW DREAM! More happy! YEAH!!! 

lol.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

*Foggy Talk 101...* (please feel free to add more)

•Our marriage was over long before I cheated.
•We're not like we used to be.
•I don't love you anymore.
•We've never been right for each other.
•I feel trapped.
•I never wanted to get married.
•I don't want to live like this.
•I love you like a sister/brother.
•I wanted to shake up our marriage and make it better.
•You deserve better.
•I thought you didn't love me anymore.
•You left me before I left you.
•I was never in love with you.
•Our marriage was boring.
•I need to have sex with others. I can't go the rest of my life sleeping with just you.
•The sex is incredible. It was never that good with you.
•It doesn't mean anything.
•It just happened.
•He/She has an unhappy marriage, and I was filling an emotional void in his/her life.
•We were just friends.
•I was curious what sex with someone else would be like.

*ALL YOUR FAULT FOGGY TALK*

•I've told you for years why I was unhappy, but you decided to not do anything about it.
•You work too much.
•I thought you would change.
•You don't listen to me.
•You aren't good in bed.
•You don't give me any attention.
•I'm tired of having to do everything around here.
•You don't need me anymore.
•You put on too much weight/look different.
•You pressured me too much for sex so it wasn't fun with you anymore.
•You were never really there for me when I needed you.

*ALL MY FAULT FOGGY TALK*

•It has nothing to do with you.
•It's not you, it's me.
•I'm unhappy.
•I need some space.
•I really don't know what I want to do with my life.
•I never cheated before but something just snapped.
•I want to stand on my own two feet.
•The other guys goaded me on and I didn't want to look like a sissy.
•I have issues.
•I don't why why I did it. It wasn't planned.
•I didn't expect to get caught.
•I'm having a mid-life crisis.
•I'm not happy. I haven't been happy for years.
•I never meant to hurt you.
•It's in my nature to cheat.
•It's just a guy thing.
•It's an addiction. 
•I can't help myself.


----------



## notreadytoquit

You should write a book about foggy talk . It's an amazing list.


----------



## Stevebg

maybe i'm ol school, don't know but i can honestly say in my 42 yrs I've never cheated in my relationships. I believe it's a moral thing. But by the same token I have seen it happen,happened to me and sometime I wonder.... is it my morals or am I stupid, should I have?


----------



## remmons

Stevebg said:


> maybe i'm ol school, don't know but i can honestly say in my 42 yrs I've never cheated in my relationships. I believe it's a moral thing. But by the same token I have seen it happen,happened to me and sometime I wonder.... is it my morals or am I stupid, should I have?


I firmly believe in what I have to say here. I see no reason for you to lower your your morals just because someone else has. Those of them who do will have to eventually answer to someone in due time.


----------



## OhGeesh

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I was having a discussion with someone who said "I would never cheat"... That conversation hit me in between the eyes because what this person said was almost word for word what my W had said to me before she had her affair...
> 
> It prompted me to put together some information I've learned while trying to understand and cope with what is happening to my family and write this in response...
> 
> I don’t think the majority of people involved in affairs, or even drugs for that matter set out with the intention of becoming drug addicts or adulterers. It is a snow ball effect. Most people don’t even know it’s rolling until its already gained significant speed and can very easily get out of control.
> 
> The DS doesn’t always realize what is happening or they see it through *“the fog”.* A bad (often dismissed as “innocent”) decision starts the ball rolling, which forces another bad decision, which may be difficult to cope with, which is rationalized, which kicks in all of the defense mechanisms, which force more bad decisions…. Etc, etc, etc…
> 
> You are not as strong as your mind, and in affair situations your mind *IS ON DRUGS*. It most often starts as something “innocent” and somewhere along the line it starts… Chemicals get naturally released into the brain.. when fed small doses of "love drugs" i.e. *phenylethylamine* (or "PEA" -- a naturally occurring trace ammine in the brain. PEA is a *natural amphetamine*, which leases *Dopamine. *Dopamine stimulates the production of *oxytocin*). This begins "intrusive thinking," where it seems like your brain is fixated on the object of your affection. When your heart rules your head, there's actually one part of your brain running the other: the cortex is the area of your brain that controls logical thinking, while emotions are processed by the limbic system. When too many happy chemicals like PEA and dopamine flood your brain, they head straight for the limbic system.
> 
> The DS is now on the addiction path. Then your mind can begin a process of *defensive mechanisms* which can and will shield you from realizing what is really happening, and before you know it you lose control. But most often I believe the DS thinks they are in control of the situation as does any “addict”. They don’t see it; after all that *IS* a defense mechanism. *It’s your mind’s way of protecting itself*, an unconscious process that tries to reduce the anxiety associated with *instinctive desires*. The most well known and common in an adulterer would be *Rationalization, Denial, and Repression. *Read any story here or anywhere else about “the fog” or a DS’s behavior the characteristic signs of these defense mechanisms are present.
> 
> *Denial* is probably one of the best known defense mechanisms, used often to describe situations in which people seem unable to face reality or admit an obvious truth (i.e. "more than friends”) Denial is an outright refusal to admit or recognize that something has occurred or is currently occurring.
> 
> Denial functions to protect the ego from things that the individual cannot cope with (guilt?). While this may save us from anxiety or pain, denial also requires a substantial investment of energy. Because of this, other defenses are also used to keep these unacceptable feelings from consciousness.
> 
> *Rationalization* is a defense mechanism that involves explaining an unacceptable behavior or feeling in a rational or logical manner, avoiding the true reasons for the behavior. Rationalization not only prevents anxiety, it may also protect self-esteem and self-concept. Rationalization also kicks in when confronted by perceived moral failure or wrongdoing (i.e.; DDay); people tend to blame other people or outside forces.
> 
> *Repression* is another well-known defense mechanism. Repression acts to keep information out of conscious awareness. (i.e. selective memory regarding conversations or acts with the OM/OW) Sometimes we do this consciously by forcing the unwanted information out of our awareness, which is known as *suppression*, but it is usually believed to occur unconsciously.
> 
> *Sublimation, Displacement, Projection and Intellectualization* are other defense mechanisms which play small parts in the process of mental self protection in affair or addiction situations…
> 
> Often the DS attributes “outside forces” to what happened that lead to an affair, (i.e. "it just happened") Outside forces don’t get people into these situations. But “inside forces” can… I’m just saying this is a powerful thing.
> 
> In the end, A person is responsible their actions and the decisions they made to get to that point. I only mentioned what I did to point out that your brain + affairs (oxyticon, dopamine, etc) love drugs) are dangerous, situations. It could happen to almost anyone, don’t kid yourself.


Unless you are mentally ill it's a choice like everything else in the world drugs, porn, money, affairs, you name it.

Just because you can link feelings of euphoria to chemicals doesn't change one thing!!


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

OhGeesh said:


> Unless you are mentally ill it's a choice like everything else in the world drugs, porn, money, affairs, you name it.
> 
> Just because you can link feelings of euphoria to chemicals doesn't change one thing!!


Im honestly not even sure what your saying? I didn't claim it changed anything. 



Pit-of-my-stomach (original post) said:


> I’m just saying this is a powerful thing.
> 
> In the end, A person is responsible their actions and the decisions they made to get to that point. I only mentioned what I did to point out that your brain + affairs (oxyticon, dopamine, etc) love drugs) are dangerous, situations.





Pit-of-my-stomach (second post) said:


> I don't explain any of this because of justification for my wifes actions...
> 
> I have educated myself on some of these things and shared some of what I've learned with you because it helps me cope with this situation.


----------



## Jellybeans

Being in an affair is like being high as a kite. 

Pit, your post where it said : 

_You are not as strong as your mind, and in affair situations your mind IS ON DRUGS._

Is spot on.


----------



## SoWhatNow

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> *Foggy Talk 101...*


I'm a little lost on what you're calling "foggy talk". Are you suggesting that if someone feels any of the things in your list, they aren't actually feeling them, they're merely in a fog (e.g. confused by the brain's chemical response to love)?


----------



## Jellybeans

^ Google "Affair fog"


----------



## SoWhatNow

Jellybeans said:


> ^ Google "Affair fog"


Thanks. New to the board and had been searching on the term "foggy talk" and coming up empty. Read up on it a bit and it sounds like nothing more than pseudoscience.


----------



## Lon

Any betrayed spouse can tell you precisely when and how this "pseudoscience" fog has affected their wayward spouse. I personally know exactly what it means, and I think it is the perfect term for the way my W acted once she found herself on the path of her affair. It prevented her from being able to admit what she did was just plain wrong, it permitted her to rewrite our own marital history in her head, it allowed her to make ridiculous threats about dishing the dirt on me when I started telling her family about her affair(s), it encouraged her to turn everything all back on me as if I was the disrespectful one for ignoring her needs (and of course it was MY fault that she couldn't meet my impossible needs such as, you know, sitting down as a family atleast once a month to eat a meal, which I make btw). It is no more pseudoscience than the term "infidelity" itself.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

SoWhatNow said:


> Thanks. New to the board and had been searching on the term "foggy talk" and coming up empty. Read up on it a bit and it sounds like nothing more than pseudoscience.


Well the term "foggy talk" was just an expression I made up. So I don't assume you will find much in your searches using that term. It's a pseudoterm. lol.

There is a very common script for what someone in an affair says and does. Those are all examples. 

No, Its doesn't mean that they (DS) don't feel a certain way (at a given time) it means that the way that they feel is influenced by a very powerful chemical reaction in someones brain. It means that someone's logic, ability to reason, and thier decision making, has been comprimised.


----------



## SoWhatNow

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> There is a very common script for what someone in an affair says and does. Those are all examples.


I suspect that's true. However, there's a pretty common script for what people do in ALL relationships, not just affairs. People tend to interact in similar ways... after all, we're all human and tend to relate to each other in a typical fashion.



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> No, Its doesn't mean that they (DS) don't feel a certain way (at a given time) it means that the way that they feel is influenced by a very powerful chemical reaction in someones brain. It means that someone's logic, ability to reason, and thier decision making, has been comprimised.


Well, this is why I called it pseudoscience. I read your OP, as well as a few other articles on the topic. Here's my take on it and why I disagree with the whole notion of an "affair fog".

We would agree that there's a chemical reaction that takes place in the brain when we fall in love. However, this chemical reaction (the release of dopamine, etc.), in and of itself, is not unique to infidelity, it's a reaction to love. So, the implication that this reaction is specifically tied to affairs, is misleading. Let's keep in mind, people in love constantly make bad decisions, cut friends out of their life, etc. 

Second, you said, "...in affair situations your mind *IS ON DRUGS*". That's a grand overstatement. If this was true, people in love would not be allowed to drive a car or operate heavy machinery. 

Third, you tie in Freud's theories, in order to lend this "theory" some gravitas. However, let's not forget, Freud was a neurologist from the early 1900s. Most of his theories have been debunked by modern science. Basing a modern day theory on what Freud knew and understood about the way the mind works, would be like building a modern day war plane based on what the Wright brothers understood about flight.

Ultimately, this whole concept is based on the idea that the chemical response is unique to an affair (it isn't), the overstated idea that your brain is on drugs (it isn't really), and cementing it all with an early 19th century neurologist's understanding of brain function (probably not a good idea).


----------



## HurtinginTN

OK, then how do you explain the apparent lack of so many people in affairs to be able to see reality? I'm not getting into the technical stuff of a mind. But the "fog" seems to explain a lot of how my wife acted. It seems to be a common thing on here with many threads. They get so wrapped up in the affair, that nothing else in their life really matters. I've had different counsellors compare it to a crack cocaine addiction.


----------



## sigma1299

I always called it having my head up my [email protected]@ when I was in my affair and post D Day until I found this site - "The Fog" sounds so much nicer. Having been through it, I'll say it was very real, at least for me.


----------



## pidge70

SoWhatNow said:


> I suspect that's true. However, there's a pretty common script for what people do in ALL relationships, not just affairs. People tend to interact in similar ways... after all, we're all human and tend to relate to each other in a typical fashion.
> 
> Well, this is why I called it pseudoscience. I read your OP, as well as a few other articles on the topic. Here's my take on it and why I disagree with the whole notion of an "affair fog".
> 
> We would agree that there's a chemical reaction that takes place in the brain when we fall in love. However, this chemical reaction (the release of dopamine, etc.), in and of itself, is not unique to infidelity, it's a reaction to love. So, the implication that this reaction is specifically tied to affairs, is misleading. Let's keep in mind, people in love constantly make bad decisions, cut friends out of their life, etc.
> 
> Second, you said, "...in affair situations your mind *IS ON DRUGS*". That's a grand overstatement. If this was true, people in love would not be allowed to drive a car or operate heavy machinery.
> 
> Third, you tie in Freud's theories, in order to lend this "theory" some gravitas. However, let's not forget, Freud was a neurologist from the early 1900s. Most of his theories have been debunked by modern science. Basing a modern day theory on what Freud knew and understood about the way the mind works, would be like building a modern day war plane based on what the Wright brothers understood about flight.
> 
> Ultimately, this whole concept is based on the idea that the chemical response is unique to an affair (it isn't), the overstated idea that your brain is on drugs (it isn't really), and cementing it all with an early 19th century neurologist's understanding of brain function (probably not a good idea).



^^^^I agree with all of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SoWhatNow

HurtinginTN said:


> OK, then how do you explain the apparent lack of so many people in affairs to be able to see reality? I'm not getting into the technical stuff of a mind. But the "fog" seems to explain a lot of how my wife acted. It seems to be a common thing on here with many threads. They get so wrapped up in the affair, that nothing else in their life really matters.


I won't pretend to know the answers to this. I just don't think the theory being suggested makes sense, for the reasons I listed. 

That said, why even bother to distinguish people in affairs from people in new relationships? How many times has someone you know started ignoring their friends because they were so into the new person in their life? How many women do you know who exclusively date men who are jerks? How many men do you know who end up whipped? People in love do dumb things. It's the nature of the beast. An affair becomes an affair because the people involved have fallen for one another. I'm not sure it's really any more complicated than that.

Again, just my two cents.


----------



## joe kidd

HurtinginTN said:


> OK, then how do you explain the apparent lack of so many people in affairs to be able to see reality? I'm not getting into the technical stuff of a mind. But the "fog" seems to explain a lot of how my wife acted. It seems to be a common thing on here with many threads. They get so wrapped up in the affair, that nothing else in their life really matters. I've had different counsellors compare it to a crack cocaine addiction.


Well Hurt my SO told me she wasn't in a fog. She said that she was a selfish horrible b*tch who was thinking of no one but herself.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

SoWhatNow said:


> Well, this is why I called it pseudoscience.


I'm happy to discuss this with you at length. I hope to be able to find time to address anything you want to discuss. I'm not a scientist or psychologist, I'm not writing a paper and don't have professional capitol tied to being right or wrong about this. I'd just assume none of this ever happened to me and I never felt compelled to find answers to these questions which have haunted my life. 

Have you been or are you involved in an extra maritial realtionship? or has your significant other been involved in one and that is what is driving your interest in the subject? 

If you want to have an intelligent open minded conversation about these things, I would love to engage with you. Obviously, I have an interest. You've taken a decidedly aggresive approach to objecting to the facts and opinions I've offered. That is obviously fine, even good if your coming from the 'right' place. 

It would help for me to understand what angle your coming from. I'm not interesting in trying to change your mind or force anything down your throat if your determined to disagree. In that case your going to bounce around and find a "weak spot" to exploit. Your going to believe what you want or need too. 

Start with...

The comment about "drugs" being a grand overstatement. If anything it's an understatement. The example you use about someone not being allowed to drive is absurd. I think you know that but you use that example to hit home a point your trying to make. Fine, nice showmanship. 

I think that the last stat I saw said that over 10% of the population is on anti-depressants, and in general up to 50% of the population is on some type of perscription medication at any given time. This says nothing about over the counter drugs which could increase the numbers over 75%. So 3 out of 4 people in the US are on "drugs" at any given time. Depending on the drug, the effects on the individual vary widely. Most drive.

Dopamine along with the other chemicals that are naturally released by your brain are drugs. Dopamine's power is amazing. Some perscription drugs and most addictive "street drugs" produce or stimulate the production of high levels of dopamine in the brain. This production of dopamine IS what people are addicted to. Addictive drugs flood the brain with dopamine and condition us to expect artificially high levels of the neurotransmitter. Over time, the user's brain requires more dopamine than it can naturally produce, and it becomes dependent on the drug.

The drug is just the vehicle for it's production. Affairs are also a vehicle for the production of massive amounts of dopamine. It's addictive properties don't change based on what is delivering it.



SoWhatNow said:


> Ultimately, this whole concept is based on the idea that the chemical response is unique to an affair (it isn't)


Dopamine production or it's addiction is not unique to affairs, that's rediculous. None of these things are unique to affairs, they are simply present in them. We are on an infidelity forum, we are discussing affairs and infidelity. Dopamine production and it's effects are very much present in affairs, That was the reason for this discussion here.


----------



## HurtinginTN

SoWhatNow said:


> That said, why even bother to distinguish people in affairs from people in new relationships? How many times has someone you know started ignoring their friends because they were so into the new person in their life? How many women do you know who exclusively date men who are jerks? How many men do you know who end up whipped? People in love do dumb things. It's the nature of the beast. An affair becomes an affair because the people involved have fallen for one another. I'm not sure it's really any more complicated than that.


That is very interesting. You make a good point. The addiction is not so much the affair, as it is the new relationship. Actually, they are one and the same. The new relationship IS the affair. The difference is that the new relationship would be fine if both parties were single. In an affair, one or both parties are supposedly involved in a committed relationship with another person. Instead of first ending that committed relationship, the affair partners have chosen to explore this new relationship first. That is where the dopamine comes in, I believe.

The dopamine was not what started the affair. The cheating spouse walked down that slippery slope on their own. The dopamine simply makes the affair more appealing once it is in progress. It does become an addiction, in my opinion, making it very hard to stop. Not all affairs, though. A one-night stand wouldn't produce this. A deep emotional affair definitely does.

The purpose of this forum is to help people "Cope with Infidelity". Pit has been through hell with his cheating wife. In searching for answers, he found this stuff. It does show the powerful draw of an affair, but like you point out, that is how any new relationship would start.

I guess this lends more credibility to the "Just let them go" thread. This new relationship the cheating spouse has decided to pursue blinds them to all negative aspects. As the 180 states, no amount of begging, pleading, reasoning, etc. will work. Only bringing the new relationship from fantasy into reality has the possibility of killing it.


----------



## EmeraldEyez

I started to read this thread thinking it would be one of those, "boy, can I relate"...but sadly...I don't find myself having "the luxury" (I'll explain that crazy choice of words ) there was no "fog"..."dopamine-induced" "search for happiness" in my WH choices. There wasn't any, "oh, we were friends, and she just understood me , you and I were having such a hard time...blah..blah..blah"....I don't have anything to "explain" what happened. He deployed, he did put up my pictures and the pictures of our sons on the walls of his room. He then preceeded to (insert a vulgar word here) anything that would give him a few seconds to do so. Didn't matter age, looks, weight..he was all equal opportunity. They all knew he was married, they saw my pictures and my sons pictures all over the walls, there was no friendship, there was no "aww...she was just gorgeous"....there was no "whoops it just happened", just oportunity, heck he didn't even have to date them, buy anything for them....just "be there". If that's all it takes....how the h...e double L are you suppposed to "process" that? I feel like my husband and my marriage died over there, and who/what am I living with now. No wonder, I'm constantly wondering.....driving myself crazy who/what/when/where it's going to happen again.


----------



## JustAGirl

EmeraldEyez said:


> I started to read this thread thinking it would be one of those, "boy, can I relate"...but sadly...I don't find myself having "the luxury" (I'll explain that crazy choice of words ) there was no "fog"..."dopamine-induced" "search for happiness" in my WH choices. There wasn't any, "oh, we were friends, and she just understood me , you and I were having such a hard time...blah..blah..blah"....I don't have anything to "explain" what happened. He deployed, he did put up my pictures and the pictures of our sons on the walls of his room. He then preceeded to (insert a vulgar word here) anything that would give him a few seconds to do so. Didn't matter age, looks, weight..he was all equal opportunity. They all knew he was married, they saw my pictures and my sons pictures all over the walls, there was no friendship, there was no "aww...she was just gorgeous"....there was no "whoops it just happened", just oportunity, heck he didn't even have to date them, buy anything for them....just "be there". If that's all it takes....how the h...e double L are you suppposed to "process" that? I feel like my husband and my marriage died over there, and who/what am I living with now. No wonder, I'm constantly wondering.....driving myself crazy who/what/when/where it's going to happen again.


I may not know anything about anything....but it sounds like he's trying to fill a void that you have nothing to do with. Or maybe has a sexual addiction? Whatever it is, it's HIS problem.....Take care of you


----------



## SoWhatNow

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Have you been or are you involved in an extra maritial realtionship? or has your significant other been involved in one and that is what is driving your interest in the subject?


Stumbled upon the forum... found the topic intriguing... honestly, that's it. Slow day at work. 



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> You've taken a decidedly aggressive approach to objecting to the facts and opinions I've offered.


My post wasn't intended to be aggressive at all. If you read it as such, please know, that wasn't my intention. I just think we just have opposite opinion on the topic, and my post reflected that that dichotomy. 



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> The comment about "drugs" being a grand overstatement. If anything it's an understatement.


Again, I disagree. I've been in love, and in my younger days, I was high on all sorts of drugs. In my opinion, they are not similar in how they impact the brain. As a prime example, no one has ever ODed on love.



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> The example you use about someone not being allowed to drive is absurd. I think you know that but you use that example to hit home a point your trying to make. Fine, nice showmanship.


It wasn't intended as showmanship, it was meant to highlight how much of an overstatement I believe the analogy is. People who are actually on drugs, are in such a compromised mental state, that they can be a danger to themselves and everyone around them. People in love or having an affair, don't represent this same danger to the general public. 



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I think that the last stat I saw said that over 10% of the population is on anti-depressants, and in general up to 50% of the population is on some type of perscription medication at any given time. This says nothing about over the counter drugs which could increase the numbers over 75%. So 3 out of 4 people in the US are on "drugs" at any given time.


If we use the statistic you've offered, that 75% of the people are on drugs, than 75% of cheaters are on drugs. And if that's true, we'd then have to understand what impacts dopamine has on the brain, in combination with each of the drugs that the 75% of cheaters are on, to have a true understanding of the impact of an affair on the brain. 



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> None of these things are unique to affairs, they are simply present in them. We are on an infidelity forum, we are discussing affairs and infidelity. Dopamine production and it's effects are very much present in affairs, That was the reason for this discussion here.


Agreed. And I do appreciate the context in which it was presented. However, I think it read as if the "fog" is unique to affairs. And I also think it suggested, that people in affairs don't actually fall in love with one another, they merely think they do, because of the fog. However, I would argue, that the fog, by and large, is the sensation of falling in love.

All that said... I sincerely feel bad for your personal situation. I can't even imagine what you're going through. I truly hope you find the peace you seek and the resolution you desire. Best of luck.

Cheers.


----------



## SoWhatNow

HurtinginTN said:


> The dopamine was not what started the affair. The cheating spouse walked down that slippery slope on their own. The dopamine simply makes the affair more appealing once it is in progress.


From what science knows, dopamine is connected to love. So, it would stand to reason, the affair becomes more appealing, only because the person is falling in love. I'm not suggesting I know this to be a fact, I'm just stating this is what I understand.



HurtinginTN said:


> It does become an addiction, in my opinion, making it very hard to stop. Not all affairs, though. A one-night stand wouldn't produce this.  A deep emotional affair definitely does.


Agreed on the latter part. However, I tend think we throw around the term "addiction" too liberally in this country. I don't believe people become addicted to each other or the feelings that another engenders in us. I think when we find happiness, even when that happiness comes outside of our primary relationship, we pursue it.


----------



## cowgirl70

Wow, this answered so many questions I have had for months.... Thank you for sharing. Not that it makes the hurt any easier but it explains the why.....


----------



## 3rdmanout

As a chemist and a LS, I find this thread very intersting, engaging, and totally understandable. Many on these thoughts on the power of dopamine (and other natural brain chemistry) associated with intense personal relationships have crossed my mind in bits and pieces, but never really come together. Thank you for your articulation. 
Even though my DS's affair ended with the end of her deployment, she has expressed still having intense feelings for him and finds it impossible to not contact him. Knowing the power of dopamine and the loning created when it is taken away, and her guilt over hurting me and tearing apart our family makes me worry that she'll never be able to get past this and decide that she wants to rebuild our relationship.
Knowledge is power, but sometimes, it is just plain scary.


----------



## 3rdmanout

"As a prime example, no one has ever ODed on love."

Maybe not, but many people have committed suicide when their love was taken away.


----------



## Habibi

You have no idea how much better I feel after reading this! And it's been 8 months since my husband cheated. It's so much easier to look at it in this non personal way.


----------



## remmons

Habibi said:


> You have no idea how much better I feel after reading this! And it's been 8 months since my husband cheated. It's so much easier to look at it in this non personal way.


I felt the same way when I started reading this thread. It has been almost 11 months now since I discovered my W's EA, and her daughters "relationship". This thread summarizes 5 years of my marriage in one sweep.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

Habibi said:


> You have no idea how much better I feel after reading this! And it's been 8 months since my husband cheated. It's so much easier to look at it in this non personal way.


Your very welcome. I'm sorry this is happening to you. 

It also helped me to educate myself and depersonalize some of what was happening and what I was witnessing. 

The poster previously who was interested in the subject but had never been through any of this can't understand and I can't explain. God willing, he will never _understand_ this. I couldn't have unless I had seen it. 

As many of you that are going through this understand, Many of my W's behaviors were so bizarre and foriegn they were outside my ability to comprehend and digest, particularly in my comprimised emotional state. I needed to understand. 

Double edged sword... I will admit, I will never look at "falling in love", attraction or any of it with the same starry eyes ever again. Guess you dissect anything far enough, it losses some of its 'magic'.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I will admit, I will never look at "falling in love", attraction or any of it with the same starry eyes ever again. Guess you dissect anything far enough, it losses some of its 'magic'.


Oh, Pit. One day we will both meet that magic woman (hopefully not the same woman, lol), the dopamine will flow freely, and we will forget what dopamine, affairs, etc. even are. Of course, I'm sure that will be many months down the road for both of us and after we are healed. 

I also am grateful for all of the research that you have done into all of this. Several of your threads have been very helpful to me, including this one. Also, for your book suggestion. I've been reading it most nights and it has helped a lot in helping my children.


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## MrQuatto

bump


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## Arnold

No, there are clearly some people who will never cross that line. I amnot claiming to be one of them. But, I know folks who never would do it.
Of course, neither of us can prove out takes on this, eh?


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## Arnold

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I'm happy to discuss this with you at length. I hope to be able to find time to address anything you want to discuss. I'm not a scientist or psychologist, I'm not writing a paper and don't have professional capitol tied to being right or wrong about this. I'd just assume none of this ever happened to me and I never felt compelled to find answers to these questions which have haunted my life.
> 
> Have you been or are you involved in an extra maritial realtionship? or has your significant other been involved in one and that is what is driving your interest in the subject?
> 
> If you want to have an intelligent open minded conversation about these things, I would love to engage with you. Obviously, I have an interest. You've taken a decidedly aggresive approach to objecting to the facts and opinions I've offered. That is obviously fine, even good if your coming from the 'right' place.
> 
> It would help for me to understand what angle your coming from. I'm not interesting in trying to change your mind or force anything down your throat if your determined to disagree. In that case your going to bounce around and find a "weak spot" to exploit. Your going to believe what you want or need too.
> 
> Start with...
> 
> The comment about "drugs" being a grand overstatement. If anything it's an understatement. The example you use about someone not being allowed to drive is absurd. I think you know that but you use that example to hit home a point your trying to make. Fine, nice showmanship.
> 
> I think that the last stat I saw said that over 10% of the population is on anti-depressants, and in general up to 50% of the population is on some type of perscription medication at any given time. This says nothing about over the counter drugs which could increase the numbers over 75%. So 3 out of 4 people in the US are on "drugs" at any given time. Depending on the drug, the effects on the individual vary widely. Most drive.
> 
> Dopamine along with the other chemicals that are naturally released by your brain are drugs. Dopamine's power is amazing. Some perscription drugs and most addictive "street drugs" produce or stimulate the production of high levels of dopamine in the brain. This production of dopamine IS what people are addicted to. Addictive drugs flood the brain with dopamine and condition us to expect artificially high levels of the neurotransmitter. Over time, the user's brain requires more dopamine than it can naturally produce, and it becomes dependent on the drug.
> 
> The drug is just the vehicle for it's production. Affairs are also a vehicle for the production of massive amounts of dopamine. It's addictive properties don't change based on what is delivering it.
> 
> 
> 
> Dopamine production or it's addiction is not unique to affairs, that's rediculous. None of these things are unique to affairs, they are simply present in them. We are on an infidelity forum, we are discussing affairs and infidelity. Dopamine production and it's effects are very much present in affairs, That was the reason for this discussion here.


Wouldn't you agree though, pit, that in order to get to the place hwere the stimuli for production of dopamine is present, one has to usually make a series of choices that alow exposure to the stimuli. And, that is where one , clearly, has control.
It is why we prosecute drunk drivers, despit the fact that, often, by the time they get behind the wheel, they are too impaired to realize their impairment.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

Arnold said:


> Wouldn't you agree though, pit, that in order to get to the place hwere the stimuli for production of dopamine is present, one has to usually make a series of choices that alow exposure to the stimuli. And, that is where one , clearly, has control..


My opinion was part of the first post...



Pit said:


> I don’t think the majority of people involved in affairs set out with the intention of becoming adulterers. It is a snow ball effect. Most people don’t even know it’s rolling until its already gained significant speed.......
> 
> A bad (often dismissed as “innocent”) decision starts the ball rolling, which forces another bad decision, which may be difficult to cope with, which is rationalized, which kicks in all of the defense mechanisms, which force more bad decisions…. Etc, etc, etc….........
> 
> It most often starts as something “innocent” and somewhere along the line it starts… Chemicals get naturally released into the brain......


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

To address the question and comment about there being some people out there that would just never do it... I refuse to say never. 

I believe without a doubt everyone has 'magical' combination of factors that if put into motion would begin to break down boundries and comprimise intimacy thresholds. That puts them in the crosshairs for a brain jaring burst of dopamine... and I do believe this is never or at least very seldom the intention.

So yeah, I do think everyone has a 'secret recipe'. 

lol, guess the key is not letting all the ingredients get into the mixing bowl at the same time?. But, that could be tough considering you may not know what those ingredients are at any given time.... or who might have them....

Guess "they" were right about marriage being so much work... who'da thunk it?... (honesty disclaimer) not me, I wasn't prepared for this)


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## Arnold

Me. I don't buy that it is an innocent activity or exposure gone wrong. A large % of th cheaters i encountered and spoke to , admitted that thye had the intention to cheat with someone and that they acted on it , trolling, before they even met their eventual partner. To me, I think in most cases it is premeditated, prior to the release of the chemicals. 
MY first XW, for example, would set up shop at a hotel with a tavern. Travelling men were available and accomodations in proximity. No dopamine releas at that point, as her partners were not known, yet.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

No doubt, lots of people out there set out with the intention of cheating or at least they are open minded to it. Then there are others that get swept up in the tornado of circumstances and find themselves where they never intended to be. Every cheater is the same while being entirely different I guess.


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## MrQuatto

bump


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## sadcalifornian

What an amazing post !!!


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## boto227

Steve, I think you,ve answered your own question, 42 years and never cheated! Say no more!!!:smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## Jellybeans

Why did Arnold get banned?


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

Jellybeans said:


> Why did Arnold get banned?


I dunno, I wondered that myself. 

Also curious who Steve is and what question he answered for himself, lol.


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## Looking to heal

This is a fantastic thread !

In my DS mind I know that if necessary (i.e. if discovered) she was always planning to end things but it surprised her how hard this would actually be to do.

That's the part of the betrayal that I have a hard time getting over and maybe never will...

In that regard, I agree with Pit of my Stomach as far as what happens post affair.

For me this is incredibly helpful/useful stuff to read

I do think though (and this is where I tend to agree with So What Now too) that the start of the affair is more of a rational process and less one caused by bad decisions and fog.

The word drug though is too general. Pot is a drug that many people use and live normally... Heroin on the other hand is not

I suspect there is a difference between the chemical feeling when falling in love vs falling for someone in an affair setting but I don't know that for sure...

And yes, under the right set of circumstances, I too believe almost anyone can cheat...


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## Jellybeans

Anyone can cheat. In any relationship. It all comes down to, will they?

Me personally, I had BLIND trustin my ex husband. I know that is something I lost with him and it's something I will never get back with anyone again in a new relationship.

Honestly, now I think it's dangerous to blindly trust someone. 

I don't trust anyone now.


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## zelika

Honestly, I think my boyfriend should write you a thank you letter. You just bought him a lot more patience and understanding from me. Ive been in that "fog" before, not for cheating but for other things I knew were wrong so I kind of get what that's like. I am also well aware of the power of oxytocin. I breed horses, and I will often give mares a dose of oxytocin immediately following birthing that are only on their first or second foal or mares that have a habit of rejecting their foals. The oxytocin forces their brains to bond with the baby instead of killing/hurting it. Happens way more than you think it would. Also, you're article about controlling vs transparent was very helpful as well. Until I read that I was the controlling description, and thought that was totally fine. What you said really made sense to me, so thank you!


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

If anything I said helped you in some way, That's all the thanks I could ask for. You and your boyfriend are very welcome.  

Happy holidays.


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## JennaLynne

All I can say is WOW.....The original post...wow....having just found out my STBXH was cheating and that i was so completely blind to it...this explains a lot. Especially considering everyone pegged him as a "he'd never cheat, it's just not him"....


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## frazaled

Wow this has actually helped me understand a few things that i just thought were excuses . my hubby was also the last person anyone thought would cheat , i was also one of those who said you cheat your gone and he isnt so yeah never say never


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## UCanTalk

Great post - check out limerence as well - lots of parallels with whats been posted here - hit me like a Mack truck and taken a year to move on.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

UCanTalk said:


> Great post - check out limerence as well - lots of parallels with whats been posted here - hit me like a Mack truck and taken a year to move on.


Thank you, and yeah I stumbled into and read extensively on limerence. There is a thread around here somewhere about that, it's nail on the head for what people refer to as "deep fog" and it was most certainly my W to a T.


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## remmons

WhereAmI said:


> I used to say that I'd never cheat. I thought it was disgusting and selfish. I'm at a point in my marriage where I understand it all too well. I'd love to have someone there who'd listen to me and show that they genuinely care. In the beginning of any relationship, that's always there.
> 
> I recognize that even if I were to go outside of my marriage and have the new relationship work out, that I'd have another set of issues to overcome with that person at some point. Relationships are all simple in the beginning.
> 
> I'm determined to stay faithful. There are things I'd love to do right now (a yoga class for example) to relieve some of this stress, but I'd be putting myself in a tempting situation. I'm still fairly certain that I'd stay true, but the fact that I understand the appeal of an affair scares the hell out of me. I've put myself on anti-social lockdown.





remmons said:


> This hits a little close to home for me. I have friends telling me that I should be looking for a female companion to share my thoughts and feelings with, or even if it is just for a dinner or a movie. But I still have a strong enough connection to my wife to where I don't even feel like looking.
> 
> With our separation, it is difficult. Lonliness is a powerful emotion to overcome at times, but I am not willing to put myself out on the market just yet. I am avoiding situations that could lead me to temptation. I avoid talking to ladies who show even a hint of interest for me.
> 
> I will remain faithful to the end, if there is an end to our marriage. In the mean time, I will keep my hopes up and continue to live the right way. In the beginning, my wife and I use to have wonderful heart-to-heart talks, but then life, a child and reality kicked in. We started to take life for granted and forgot about what it took to keep us happy and connected. Maybe, after some much needed healing time, we will once again reconnect. But in the mean time, I will remain faithful. I will let her open up her eyes to what she has done, and fix the broken connection that has come between us.


I had forgotten that I had posted this last year. With a sad heart I have to report that the marriage ended in July of last year. Since our separation on Christmas eve of 2010, my X has dated three guys, and she is now engaged to a fourth that she has met online who is from another State. I and her family are giving her marriage to last for up to four years, this seems to be her average. She was married twice for four years each before she met me. Our marriage had lasted for five years.

I have been hearing little things here and there from members of her family, friends, and our five year old daughter that still sound promising, but it's one of those things that I am not holding my breath on.


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## Songbird21

Thank you so much for this post. It's eased my confusion somewhat.


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## lucina

Never say never...
I watch my husband and his friends sail through life hitting bars and on women as sport. I never thought I would sink to their level but I did. 28 years of marriage and finally I had an affair. In the end my EA has given me strength to challenge my husband and our problems head on, I can’t say I’m sorry.


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## ilovechocolate

Just wanted to say thanks for such a brilliant post - it helps me to undertsand better why he lied, and did what he did . Still a long way to go but this has helped.


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## anfield

that is very useful OP, thanks....

i have one question though, how long will the fog usually last, weeks or months ? 

i think my wife in on that 'state' at the moment


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## thrway214

anfield said:


> i have one question though, how long will the fog usually last, weeks or months ?


From what I remember reading - it depends - on how long the affair lasted, how far it went, your W's emotional dependence, how your interactions go from here etc. 

For my W - it was an EA+non-sexual PA, that lasted about four months, with lots of interruptions. During the A, she hadn't progressed to hating me or considering sexual situations with OM. She ended it when my 180 and speaking to an attorney hit her like a sh1t-ton of bricks. From when NC started, she was depressed for a good 15days. The fog slowly lifted over two-three months. I would add that it took a lot of changes on my part to get her out of the fog. As long as I was angry, miserable, pathetic, she was able to justify her A in her mind. I finally decided to make it safe for her to confess and come back to our marriage. That's when it really began. 

Hope that helps, and hope others chime in.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

anfield said:


> i have one question though, how long will the fog usually last, weeks or months ?
> 
> i think my wife in on that 'state' at the moment





thrway214 said:


> From what I remember reading - it depends - on how long the affair lasted, how far it went, your W's emotional dependence, how your interactions go from here etc.


Sorry for the delay getting back with you... Essentially there is no hard, fast answer to your question. thrway214 answered well.. it depends. I know that's not comforting, but... It's true. 

One thing I can offer, if the fog clears quickly and there are no clear and pronounced signs of 'detox'.... Watch out, it's not over.


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## old timer

Bump for an insightful post


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## fishfast41

Very interesting, the mechanics of the brain and mind during an affair.Thumbs up for getting this into words so clearly. Good advice for everything in life..NEVER put yourself into a position where your proper behavior could be compromised.


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## C-man

The concept of "limerence" is very interesting. Very applicable to my STBXW and "affair fog" in general. My STBXW has moved from her PA, 3 years ago, into infatuations with different people. 

It's like she is in love with the feeling of falling in love. It must make the prospect of fixing a long-term marriage look pretty damn boring.


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## chillymorn

I would never say I would never cheat.

ironic that the people who say things like I would never do this or that seem to be the first ones to do this or that.


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## CantSitStill

triton1984 said:


> I can attest to the never say never portion of this.....and I was the one that cheated.
> 
> I first started looking on this board before I had cheated because I wanted things to be better in my marriage........I was looking for ways to improve my marriage, increase the desire my wife had for me, etc. I found great ideas but also saw how many bad marriages/relationships were out there. Somewhere along the way I forgot about the "I would never do that". It started with needing and wanting more conversation......I thought what harm can some email exchanges be? It wasn't long until I was anxiously awaiting that next email, that proceeded to chat, and then to actually meeting this woman.
> 
> Don't have the time or desire right now to rehash what followed other than to say my wife found out, affair was ended.....she hasn't left, we are in counseling, doing pretty good now but everything changed in the way we both think about marriage.
> 
> Your post discusses the drugs the body produces, I've read that...and can say there was a "high" during the affair....at the time no thoughts were going on about if it was worth it. I suppose that is the "fog" that is discussed. In hindsight was it worth it......NO, even though we communicate better now than ever, the sexual intimacy is the best it has ever been.....I would still trade what we have now for being able to say I had remained faithful to my wife.


I know what you mean, as a former WS I tried to stop contact with the exOM so many times and would text him a few days later with..there's no harm in being friends...it is very unexplainable for me to even understand what the heck was wrong with me...this is very good info..thank you Pit
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I chose to find my ex boyfriend...that is a choice I knew was wrong yet didnt care..because of all those foggy excuses. My husband does not believe in the fog. I understand why. Gosh I was unhappy and could have made way better choices but I reufused to. MY FAULT. I was concious of what I was doing but made all of those excuses just so I could get cheap stupid compliments from another man. I am so aware now that I really do know I won't do it again. I am thankful for this site because it has helped our marriage and it's a miracle we are still together after the way I betrayed him. We communicate and do so many things differently now but it takes alot of work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Keepin-my-head-up

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Really?



Great post!
Doesn't validate but explains.

The challenge tho, that was legit.

You stated facts.

As a fact, the brain on a purely chemical decision will not determine good vs. bad choice.
It will choose the route of which chemical high it wants.

Good v. Bad is subjective is it not?

I'm really asking, according to what you have posted, there is no good or bad- only high or not high.

I'm seriously trying to understand this because I am going thru some shI+! (right now this exact minute actually!) and am trying to see what I am up against.

There is no way I could have articulated this into its biological element so I will understand it accordingly.
When a male gorilla mates with another gorilla, then another and another.
It is not evaluating good or bad right?
So we are up against pure biology and Chemistry.

So where does common sense come in?
Fvck if I know but hopefully soon in my case


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