# What to tell the children (boys 12 & 10)?



## YellowRoses (Jun 2, 2012)

Thanks to those who have helped on my first thread - I only have one so easy to find but I'm having a block on how to link to it 

OH moved out 9d ago - the boys know we weren't ' getting along' and they know in general terms that its dad's fault. His behaviour in recent months made it obvious that he was the one behaving badly and causing the problems.

We should have had a chat with them together but he made that impossible at the time.

I have told them he has moved out whilst mum and dad decide what to do next and we will talk to them and keep them informed and that they can talk to either of us freely . At the moment they will NOT talk to him about it but are pushing me quite hard to know the full reasons. My youngest thinks I'm keeping secrets that he should know and is angry. The oldest is just worrying quietly.

I do NOT want to lie but how much truth is appropriate for these ages? 

What and how much would you tell them ?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Tell them now, but coach it in terms their young minds will understand. Kids are perceptive creatures and smarter than we grownups give them credit for.


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## YellowRoses (Jun 2, 2012)

I know, that's why I've kind of sounded them out first to see what level they're at

They will not take a fob off or anything too general

I just don't know how to tell about the cheating in a way that won't put them off their dad for life


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

YellowRoses said:


> I do NOT want to lie but how much truth is appropriate for these ages?
> 
> What and how much would you tell them ?


All of it.

Keep it neutral and age appropriate but tell them everything and answer all questions when asked.

You`re playing with fire by keeping them in the dark


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

I would use very general terms like "fell out of love" or "grew apart".

Young children invest themselves heavily in their views of their parents. Since their parents are awesome people, they just might be OK too. That's the reasoning behind the "my dad can beat up your dad" game that many young boys play in school.

When they realize that one, or both, of their parents are just average people, or worse, people with significant flaws, their self-image takes a big hit. If Dad is a scumbag, well, Junior may well be a scumbag too.

The concept that good people can do evil things is a pretty sophisticated idea. Most children can't really grasp it. Kids much prefer the white hat, black hat view of the world. Bad guys are bad and good guys are good. If a guy does something bad, he's a bad guy. He's not a guy who made a series of poor choices because of some complicated neurobiological influences.

Your 12 year-old might be able to begin to grasp the issues at work in your situation. Your 10 year-old probably isn't. So, for the time being, I would simply say that it's happening for vague reasons. If they press you, tell them that the specifics are between you and your husband and it's not appropriate to tell them every single thing that has ever transpired in your marriage.

Good luck.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Choose words to suite their ages 

Tell the truth, do not dilute or lie to them . Children are not fools and they know more than they let on. It is important that they know you are there for them and understand it is not their fault.

Do not fall into the trap of saying you drifted apart etc your husband chose to commit adultery and that has nothing to do with drifting apart.

"When a parent has an affair what lessons are being taught to the children? What rules of life are being learned?" by not telling your children the truth you are covering up the affair . They will eventually find out by other means thus placing you in a difficult position. 

Be honest with them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

YellowRoses said:


> Thanks to those who have helped on my first thread - I only have one so easy to find but I'm having a block on how to link to it
> 
> OH moved out 9d ago - the boys know we weren't ' getting along' and they know in general terms that its dad's fault. His behaviour in recent months made it obvious that he was the one behaving badly and causing the problems.
> 
> ...


No matter what you tell your children, they will be angry.

The first time my WS and I separated, he left the marital home and, just like your sons, my sons also had an understanding that he somehow betrayed me, I was angry, and their Dad left the home. I did mention to them (they figured it out anyway) that other women were involved and this was an issue between their father and me. He still loved them and so did I, and sometimes married people need to be away from each other to sort things out. Eventually, their father moved back into the home and things got back to normal. At the time I was not prepared to be a single mom, and since my children and their stability was the most important thing in my life, I forgave their Dad.

Fast forward 10 year later. Sons are grown. Their father is back to cheating again. WS refused to leave the marital home, so I did. I have my sons full support. The youngest asked me why I took him back the first time, and I told him of my concerns in regards to being a single mom. He actually apologized to ME for being a burden, which I quickly and effectively explained that I love him and have no regrets at all in regards to my decision back then and providing him with a two parent home until such time as he was grown.

Your sons need as much truth as they can handle. Yes, they do know that their parents are fighting. Yes, they want the truth. Yes, they love you both, but they are also old enough to recognize fault when they see it. They need to learn that parents sometimes make mistakes, but they will always be loved by both parents without conditions.

My youngest was angry with his father. After several months, he wanted his Dad back in the home. Dad was apparently using him to plead to me. It worked only because I did not want my son to carry this burden that his father placed upon him. In hindsight, perhaps I was wrong to forgive for my son's sake and not my own, but the end result is that my son did not suffer any emotional or financial consequences while he was younger, and this time he has a better understanding (and more insight) into what is happening now.

Time has a way of working things out, so long as you are honest with your children. Always tell them you love them and NOTHING will change that fact.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

I disagree that you should reveal your husband's affair to them. That is unfair, they are not old enough to understand, and I do agree with you (and applaud you, btw) for not wanting to poison their minds against their father.

I think PHTlump's advice is spot on.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Read the following

Infidelity: The Lessons Children Learn
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Extracted from elsewhere

"
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur. 

An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults. "

"Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse). "

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

lamaga said:


> I disagree that you should reveal your husband's affair to them. That is unfair, they are not old enough to understand, and I do agree with you (and applaud you, btw) for not wanting to poison their minds against their father.
> 
> I think PHTlump's advice is spot on.


I would have to weigh this both ways. In my situation, the children overheard enough to learn of the source of the argument (another woman) without the details. If we were to assume that, in the OP's situation, her children overhead the nature of the disagreement, then they already know about the affair (or some other understanding of the fact that their Dad is involved with some OW)

On the other hand, if the children had no independent knowledge of any OW being involved, then yes, one could use the generic "differences" excuse.

Either way, the children deserve an age appropriate truth, and a parents needs to be aware of what information that their children have been exposed to prior to answering any questions.

In my situation of 10 year ago, had I simply "dismissed" their father's behavior by calling it "a difference of opinion" or "growing apart", I don't know that my sons could have handled me minimizing the seriousness of the problem, since they were aware of the nature of the problem.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

lamaga said:


> I disagree that you should reveal your husband's affair to them. That is unfair, they are not old enough to understand, and I do agree with you (and applaud you, btw) for not wanting to poison their minds against their father.


So you advise to lie to them?

Any intentional omission of facts will be discovered and realized as what it is...a lie.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Saying that mom and dad are not getting along is not a lie.

There's a very fine line with the strategy Eli is recommending -- you can argue all day that it's just being honest with kids, but it's also (not coincidentally) vindictive against the other spouse. I generally prefer to err on the side of not being vindictive.


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## YellowRoses (Jun 2, 2012)

I am very torn on this as you can tell

I need to think some more

My eldest has asked me outright if dad has had an affair and I have deflected the discussion. I do not want to answer him with a lie but I don't want to burden him with the truth either. 

I really don't think I can get away with the 'not getting on' or 'fell out of love' - they are too inquisitive and pretty bright. I've used these to explain the immediate separation but am now getting the ' why exactly' and 'what exactly' questions.

The first time we told them next to nothing and they were young enough to take everything at face value. Its different now

I also worry that the truth will out and someone other than me and him will tell them and they will be even more gutted that I lied. You know how gossip is and how cruel or just unthinking people can be

Underlying all this is the fact that we've let them down bigtime whatever we say. They had a right to a happy family and not to have to live with all this


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

" My eldest has asked me outright if dad has had an affair and I have deflected the discussion. I do not want to answer him with a lie but I don't want to burden him with the truth either. "

As your eldest asked you that implies they know, tell the truth , do so in a way that is factual and be there to support them . They will ask further questions, answer as honestly as you can.

You used the word burden, your not burdening them, if you lie you will be disappointing them as they need to know who they can trust to tell them the truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

"I really don't think I can get away with the 'not getting on' or 'fell out of love' - they are too inquisitive and pretty bright. I've used these to explain the immediate separation but am now getting the ' why exactly' and 'what exactly' questions."

If you decided to go this way all your doing is compounding one lie on another and then become an active participant in intentionally deceiving your children.

I don't think you have an issue telling the truth , your concern is probably more how to do so without hurting them. Your children know the score already what they are seeking is reassurance that you will you be honest with them and will be there for them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

YR, there is clearly a disagreement here on the comment thread, but you strike me as a thoughtful and engaged parent, and you know what? Whatever you decide is going to be fine. This isn't life or death, and you will handle it in the best way you know how. Good luck, honey.


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## Looking to heal (Jun 15, 2011)

My view (my kids are 6, 9, and 10) is that the kids main concern is that they are not responsible for separation whatever the cause (including infidelity).

There are some things we don't discuss with our kids because we feel they don't have the context to understand it.

I (and I am the BS) do not plan to say anything to my kids until they are much older and I agree that kids are often capable of more than we give them credit for.

My guide might be, the day I would consider watching a porno movie with them (I don't watch pornos) might be a good guide for when they are ready.

Personally, I would wait for a while if I were you.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

lamaga said:


> Saying that mom and dad are not getting along is not a lie.
> 
> There's a very fine line with the strategy Eli is recommending -- you can argue all day that it's just being honest with kids, but it's also (not coincidentally) vindictive against the other spouse. I generally prefer to err on the side of not being vindictive.


Here's the main issue I have with your suggestion, lamaga. It's not true that "mom and dad are not getting along." If you use that line, that tells a 10yo and a 12yo that THEY have to get along and share toys etc. with the kids at school and with their cousins whom they can't stand....but adults do not. Further, they are taught that any time you don't "get along" with someone, it's okay to forget your responsibilities and just leave. I don't think those are lessons you want to teach a child!

YellowRose they are 10yo and 12yo and have no reference for what a relationship or marriage is other than yours, so they won't entirely understand everything it means to have an affair--all the betrayal and hurt. All they'll see is their mom and dad are fighting (shoot, everyone fights with each other now and then) and suddenly mom started acting REALLY weird with dad and no one would explain why!! 

I would suggest saying something they would understand, and I suggest keeping the whole discussion on YOU and YOUR BELIEFS....like this: "Well you know how moms and dads fall in love and then get married and have kids and there's a family right? I personally believe that when they get married, they make promises to each other like 'I will love you forever' and 'We will be together through thick and thin' kind of stuff. Also there's a promise to love ONLY each other. I personally think it is wrong for a mom to have a boyfriend or a dad to have a girlfriend. The reason I've been acting so weird and upset and hurt lately is that I found out your dad didn't keep his promise to me and it really hurt my feelings...A LOT!! Right now I still don't think it's right for a dad to have a girlfriend and your dad and I are disagreeing on that. I would like your dad to get rid of his girlfriend and fix our family, and I even understand that there was some stuff I did that hurt him and needs to change. But since a girlfriend is a pretty big thing to disagree about, your dad has decided to move out instead of give up the girlfriend, and to be honest I feel really sad about that."

The end. I mean...do your best not to say what your disloyal spouse believes or feels or thinks--keep it simple and keep it on what YOU think and the things you want to the kids to learn. In the example above: "I think having boyfriends or girlfriends while married is wrong. Your other parent disagrees with me. I'm going to keep the focus on marriage being exclusive!"


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Children deserve the truth about what contributed to the destruction of their family, regardless of their ages. I think most of us have read the studies that reveal that kids often blame themselves for their parents divorce and more so when they don't have all the facts.

And family secrets are doomed to repeat themselves if they're swept under the carpet. Infidelity is one of those terrible family legacies that is often repeated through the generations. However, if it's brought into the light of day and discussed, apparently that risk goes down. Adultery is born of dishonesty and lies of omission. What message does it send to children to cover up dishonesty? It says that in certain circumstances dishonesty is warranted.


Furthermore, kids as old as 10 and 12 know right from wrong. They know it's not okay to sneak around behind someone's back and hurt them, and I'm sure they understand that married people should be loyal to one another.

That said, you can put it in kid friendly terms as in mommy and daddy are separating because Daddy has a girlfriend (although I hate calling OW's GF because wh0re is a better term for women who knowingly aid in destroying a family). You can explain that when you are married having a BF or GF is wrong so because of this, we are getting a D or separating or whatever your case may be. 

My son is 8 and he knows about his father's cheating (although in our case it was because he overheard his sister crying and freaking out when she overheard my H's confession). My son's response was to scream at his dad to "Break up with her! Break up with her! So kids as young as 8 get it. My son also turned to me and said, "Please don't divorce my Daddy!" Prior to this, I had never spoken to my son about infidelity or boyfriends or girlfriends, yet immediately he understood what this revelation could do to his family. Even if my son had not overheard, I would have told him as he would have deserved to know why those first few months after D-day, mommy was often sad and there was so much tension in our home. Kids are very intuitive and if your son has asked, you already know that he's suspicious. What message does it send to him about honesty if he does not get the truth when he asks?

Here's an excerpt on the subject from an article written by a psychologist: 


But by hiding the truth, unfaithful parents create confusion by telling their children what they believe is “good” for them while at the same time engaging in actions that contradict that “good” information—or, rather, disinformation. Being told one thing by your parent and knowing that the opposite is true results not only in confusion but anger and distrust. Children sense when they’re being told a lie, even when parents try to cover it up. Children whose parents are unfaithful are often handicapped by secrets and lies. Unfortunately, attempting to deceive a child and pretending that everything is fine only compounds the confusion and emotional damage of parental infidelity.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

lamaga said:


> Saying that mom and dad are not getting along is not a lie.


You`re splitting hairs hiding the truth is the same as lying.

My 11 year olds first question after I told her...
"We`re just not getting along honey so mom moved out"
Would be "Why aren`t you getting along dad?"

I`d then tell her why.



> There's a very fine line with the strategy Eli is recommending -- you can argue all day that it's just being honest with kids, but it's also (not coincidentally) vindictive against the other spouse. I generally prefer to err on the side of not being vindictive.


You give children far to little credit for intelligence.

I wouldn`t allow my wife's infidelity to be the cause of any resentment my daughter might direct towards me due to the cheating.

That`s the risk the OP is running by attempting to keep her husband from paying the price for his idiocy.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

YellowRoses said:


> I know, that's why I've kind of sounded them out first to see what level they're at
> 
> They will not take a fob off or anything too general
> 
> I just don't know how to tell about the cheating in a way that won't put them off their dad for life


Actually, YellowRoses, should that happen it would be their dad that put them off him for life, not you.

A cheating parent cheats on their children too, not just their spouse.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> I would suggest saying something they would understand, and I suggest keeping the whole discussion on YOU and YOUR BELIEFS....like this: "Well you know how moms and dads fall in love and then get married and have kids and there's a family right? I personally believe that when they get married, they make promises to each other like 'I will love you forever' and 'We will be together through thick and thin' kind of stuff. Also there's a promise to love ONLY each other. I personally think it is wrong for a mom to have a boyfriend or a dad to have a girlfriend. The reason I've been acting so weird and upset and hurt lately is that I found out your dad didn't keep his promise to me and it really hurt my feelings...A LOT!! Right now I still don't think it's right for a dad to have a girlfriend and your dad and I are disagreeing on that. I would like your dad to get rid of his girlfriend and fix our family, and I even understand that there was some stuff I did that hurt him and needs to change. But since a girlfriend is a pretty big thing to disagree about, your dad has decided to move out instead of give up the girlfriend, and to be honest I feel really sad about that."


Perfect!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Eli-Zor said:


> Extracted from elsewhere
> 
> "
> The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.
> ...


:iagree:


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## YellowRoses (Jun 2, 2012)

I also have a small worry that he will tell a different story, especially as there is no sign of a current other woman. 

I THINK he feels sorry enough not to try and bluff them but I'm not 100%

God forbid they should have to decide who to believe


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

YellowRoses said:


> I also have a small worry that he will tell a different story, especially as there is no sign of a current other woman.
> 
> I THINK he feels sorry enough not to try and bluff them but I'm not 100%
> 
> God forbid they should have to decide who to believe


Follow the lines and words posted by affaircare, I think this will help you plus your eldest has already asked the question . Your words will confirm the truth and settle their minds that they are not the cause .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

This might work. "I just don't think your dad loves me, any more. Sometimes that happens with husbands and wives.

"It doesn't mean your father is a bad man, just that he doesn't love me, now. He still loves you, though."

That way you do not have to mention any OW and if he denies there are OW to them, then HE has to explain the discrepancy.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

tacoma said:


> You`re splitting hairs hiding the truth is the same as lying.


Not really. I don't recommend hiding the truth or lying. I recommend not telling the children the reason you're divorcing. By arguing that the children have a right to know, you're arguing that children are equal partners in a marriage. They're not. A marriage, and a divorce, is primarily between a husband and a wife. The kids will certainly be affected, but they don't have the right, or the need, to know why their parents are divorcing.



tacoma said:


> You give children far to little credit for intelligence.


I think you give too much. I'm in my forties now. And I understand relationships far better than I did when I got married, in my twenties. I know things now that I would have scoffed at in my twenties. And you're arguing that small children can grasp these subtleties? I beg to differ.

Children will understand adult institutions and adult motivations when they are adults. Not before. Trying to explain the emotional states of two married people is like trying to explain calculus to an 8 year-old. Even if he says he understands, he doesn't really understand.



tacoma said:


> That`s the risk the OP is running by attempting to keep her husband from paying the price for his idiocy.


What the OP should do is attempt to protect her children, as much as possible, from her husband's idiocy. If her husband is also protected in the process, that is a different matter.

I see no difference between telling a young child that his father is an adulterer and telling a young child that his parents are divorcing because his father is just too kinky for his mother, and then explaining exactly what his kinks are. Some information should not be shared with children.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

_"Well you know how moms and dads fall in love and then get married and have kids and there's a family right? I personally believe that when they get married, they make promises to each other like 'I will love you forever' and 'We will be together through thick and thin' kind of stuff. Also there's a promise to love ONLY each other. I personally think it is wrong for a mom to have a boyfriend or a dad to have a girlfriend. The reason I've been acting so weird and upset and hurt lately is that I found out your dad didn't keep his promise to me and it really hurt my feelings...A LOT!! Right now I still don't think it's right for a dad to have a girlfriend and your dad and I are disagreeing on that. I would like your dad to get rid of his girlfriend and fix our family, and I even understand that there was some stuff I did that hurt him and needs to change. But since a girlfriend is a pretty big thing to disagree about, your dad has decided to move out instead of give up the girlfriend, and to be honest I feel really sad about that."_

Good God, this is vindictiveness wrapped up in piety, which is really the worst form of vindictiveness.

If you're going to tell them, just tell them without the treacle.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

> Good God, this is vindictiveness wrapped up in piety, which is really the worst form of vindictiveness.
> 
> If you're going to tell them, just tell them without the treacle.


:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:

The proposed way forward as criticised by yourself is worded to help the BS in dealing with her situation and in line with with the process followed by those who are professionals and have over the decades successfully helped with these difficult situations. If you wish to start a new thread to discuss the pros and cons of "telling the children" then please do so.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm with Lagama on this. 
Children this age have no need or right to know about an affair. Saying daddy fell out of love with me, assigns fault to him and will impact their perception of their father. If that's what you want-fine. What are you trying to achieve? Because telling kids their dad broke his vows to me and got a girlfriend totally paints him as the villain, and smacks of an attempt to have them pick sides. Let them decide on their own, based on their father's treatment of them, if this is the way a parent ought to act.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> I'm with Lagama on this.
> Children this age have no need or right to know about an affair. Saying daddy fell out of love with me, assigns fault to him and will impact their perception of their father. If that's what you want-fine. What are you trying to achieve? Because telling kids their dad broke his vows to me and got a girlfriend totally paints him as the villain, and smacks of an attempt to have them pick sides. Let them decide on their own, based on their father's treatment of them, if this is the way a parent ought to act.


So regardless of what child psychologist says about the impact on the children later in life, they have no right to know?

Let's just go ahead and create another generation or rug sweepers and conflict avoiders regardless of the research and good advice from the experts on this very subject?

And I hate to tell you but Daddy is the villain in this story. No, she doesn't have to say that but the boys are going to figure it out someday on their own, and they don't need to resent mom or have a lack of trust in her word because she was protecting her H from the consequences of his poor choices.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Zanna, we honestly don't know if daddy is the villain. Maybe mommy drank herself into a stupor and denied him sex for 20 years while all the time denying him a divorce. I'm NOT saying that's the case here, it's clearly not, but I'm saying that few cases of infidelity are as cut and dried as people like to think, and none of here on TAM know the details.

And anytime one parent decides to portray the other as a villain to a child, I'm going to have a problem with that. If Daddy is a villain, the kids are going to find out soon enough. If Daddy is not a villain, and mom always portrayed him as such, they'll remember that as well, and not fondly.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Pluto2 said:


> I'm with Lagama on this.
> Children this age have no need or right to know about an affair. Saying daddy fell out of love with me, assigns fault to him and will impact their perception of their father. If that's what you want-fine. What are you trying to achieve? Because telling kids their dad broke his vows to me and got a girlfriend totally paints him as the villain, and smacks of an attempt to have them pick sides. Let them decide on their own, based on their father's treatment of them, if this is the way a parent ought to act.


Maybe I'm just cursed with an overly intelligent kid but there's no way she's going to buy any bull**** I try to push on her and this will negatively affect how she sees me once she realizes I'm lying to her.
Maybe because of the fact that the situation has a very serious effect on her life I believe she needs the truth.

Maybe because I practice what I preach or maybe because I simply don't lie to my child
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Zanna, not all child psychologist say the same thing about every topic. There's a world of difference between secrets and privacy.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Funny, I spend a great deal of time warning my kid about all the "villains" in the world but I'm supposed to hide this one right under their noses.

I'll pass on that gymnastic rationalization thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Tacoma, I see what you are saying, and I respect that you would do right by your child.

I just think many people would use this "honesty" thing as an excuse to blast the estranged parent to the kids. Hey, people are people, and it's not pretty.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I don't think the OP is doing that.

She's here because she's concerned about how her kids view their father.

It seems she wants to avoid painting him in a bad light.

I'm just concerned it'll backfire if she takes it too far
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Maybe I'm just cursed with an overly intelligent kid but there's no way she's going to buy any bull**** I try to push on her and this will negatively affect how she sees me once she realizes I'm lying to her.
> Maybe because of the fact that the situation has a very serious effect on her life I believe she needs the truth.
> 
> Maybe because I practice what I preach or maybe because I simply don't lie to my child
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey. I do not lie to my children. 
I don't feed them bull****
and I don't like the way your comment takes a swipe at my children's intelligence.
My eleven year old told me, after being dragged to the school psychologist by well-meaning teachers, "Geez Mom, of course the divorce is not my fault, I wasn't the one married."


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

lamaga said:


> Zanna, we honestly don't know if daddy is the villain. Maybe mommy drank herself into a stupor and denied him sex for 20 years while all the time denying him a divorce. I'm NOT saying that's the case here, it's clearly not, but I'm saying that few cases of infidelity are as cut and dried as people like to think, and none of here on TAM know the details.
> 
> And anytime one parent decides to portray the other as a villain to a child, I'm going to have a problem with that. If Daddy is a villain, the kids are going to find out soon enough. If Daddy is not a villain, and mom always portrayed him as such, they'll remember that as well, and not fondly.



There are 3 solutions to problems in a M.

1. Fix them
2. Live with them
3. Divorce

Cheating is not an option regardless of circumstances.

And you can't deny someone a divorce if they really want one. Seriously? :scratchhead:

And no one said to portray him as the villain but when a child is asking a direct question then lying is not the answer. Word it age appropriately but lying adds to the problem.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> Zanna, not all child psychologist say the same thing about every topic. There's a world of difference between secrets and privacy.


Yes, and when your child asks you a direct question and you lie, there's a world of difference between lying and telling the truth.

The so called experts that condone lying to children are few and far between and I don't subscribe to their views.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Zanna said:


> So regardless of what child psychologist says about the impact on the children later in life, they have no right to know?


I'm not sold on the wisdom of child psychologists. Child psychologists have advocated running families as democracies. A child gets one vote just like an adult. To me, it just doesn't get more asinine than that.

However, my suggestion of only telling children that you are divorcing, and not the reasons you are divorcing, is shared by Dr. John Rosemond, my favorite child psychologist.



Zanna said:


> Let's just go ahead and create another generation or rug sweepers and conflict avoiders regardless of the research and good advice from the experts on this very subject?


I would be interested to see any rigorous studies on the subject. Please provide any links you may have.

But, I disagree that children will follow in an adulterous parent's footsteps when they don't know that the parent is adulterous. It seems to me more likely that they will be more likely to be adulterous if they understand that one of their parents was adulterous.



Zanna said:


> And I hate to tell you but Daddy is the villain in this story. No, she doesn't have to say that but the boys are going to figure it out someday on their own, and they don't need to resent mom or have a lack of trust in her word because she was protecting her H from the consequences of his poor choices.


Daddy is the villain. But when you decide to make a baby with someone, you need to put your future enmity for that person aside for the best interest of the child.

Sure, the OP could make her husband look bad to her children. All she has to do is make her children feel worse than they need to. I don't recommend that.

And sure, the children may well figure it out one day. That doesn't mean they have the right to know today. One day, they will learn the truth about Santa Claus. Does that mean we should shatter their illusions today? One day, they will learn about the birds and bees. Does that mean we are obligated to tell them right now? I don't think so.

If they figure it out on their own in the future, then they will probably be emotionally prepared for the knowledge that Daddy wasn't as nice as they thought. Let them handle it at that time. Don't thrust unwanted knowledge on children just for the sake of sticking it to a wayward spouse.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> I'm not sold on the wisdom of child psychologists. Child psychologists have advocated running families as democracies. A child gets one vote just like an adult. To me, it just doesn't get more asinine than that.
> 
> However, my suggestion of only telling children that you are divorcing, and not the reasons you are divorcing, is shared by Dr. John Rosemond, my favorite child psychologist.
> 
> ...


Yes, and I'm not sold on your so called wisdom either.

As for providing you with links, do your own research. I'm not interested in proving anything to you or engaging with anyone who discounts child psychologists but expects me to listen to some stranger on a message board and consider their advice "expert".

Pick up "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce" if you're interested in the subject. 

The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: A 25 Year Landmark Study: Amazon.ca: Judith S. Wallerstein, Sandra Blakeslee, Julia M. Lewis: Books


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Let's all ditch the attitude and concentrate on sending good wishes to Yellow Rose. Wasn't that the whole point of this?


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

lamaga said:


> Let's all ditch the attitude and concentrate on sending good wishes to Yellow Rose. Wasn't that the whole point of this?


Agreed. That's why I have no interest in going back and forth with anyone or providing links. However, let's also remember that the OP asked for opinions though so she is obviously wanting to listen to both sides. And this is a discussion board.


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## YellowRoses (Jun 2, 2012)

Don't worry guys, all views welcome 

Actual experience even more so 

At least I know I am not just being an emotional wimp about this - it really is a bloody minefield


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

YellowRoses said:


> Don't worry guys, all views welcome
> 
> Actual experience even more so
> 
> At least I know I am not just being an emotional wimp about this - it really is a bloody minefield


No doubt about it...it sucks no matter what you do.

Just have to find the least suckiest route to take.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Zanna said:


> Yes, and I'm not sold on your so called wisdom either.


Oh dear. I didn't mean to harm your self esteem. Experts claim that can be very damaging.




Zanna said:


> As for providing you with links, do your own research. I'm not interested in proving anything to you or engaging with anyone who discounts child psychologists but expects me to listen to some stranger on a message board and consider their advice "expert".


I have never claimed to be an expert. Although, I have done research. I enjoy Dr. Rosemond's books and columns. He's an expert. You don't have to take my word for things, you can take his.

Of course, you can play the dueling experts game. I know there are experts who will give advice that is diametrically opposed to mine and Rosemond's. But just because experts can't agree doesn't mean you need to get upset about conflicting advice.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

YellowRoses said:


> Don't worry guys, all views welcome
> 
> Actual experience even more so
> 
> At least I know I am not just being an emotional wimp about this - it really is a bloody minefield


My children were 7yo and 10yo (or 6 and 9...I forget now) when their dad surprised us by moving out of state with his mistress. I had known/suspected for months but he kept telling me I was crazy and just being jealous. Then he had a business trip planned and did not arrive at the location. Turns out the location never asked for a service call, he just used it as an excuse to leave, and we couldn't find him for several weeks! 

So I told them roughly what I said in my post. I do not believe you should be married and have a boyfriend/girlfriend. I don't want my kids thinking that if you stop loving someone, your commitment to them just ends. I don't want them to think it's okay to just leave your family either! So they needed to be told something and the truth seemed reasonable when everyone else was lying. 

The end result is that now they are grown adults--in their mid to late twenties--and both of them still have a relationship with their father. Our divorce was not filled with animosity and vitriol, and we have always been able to agree on things from child support to custody all along. The idea was not to point out what a "bad guy" he was, nor to make children understand what I was going through--they can't! They are children!! But they did need some version of the truth that sort of made sense with the rest of what they had been taught in life: like "lying is wrong" and "breaking promises is wrong" and "if you do something naughty there is a cost for that and it is a punishment." 

What would have been ideal (in my humble opinion) is for their dad to do something wrong (like having the affair) and then in front of the kids, stop himself, do the right thing, ask for forgiveness, and move on showing them that everyone makes mistakes but you can stop yourself, get back on track, and fix it again if you do make a mistake!! That would have been AWESOME!! Sadly that just was not what he picked... Good, bad or otherwise, he made the choices he made. Both kids were absolutely 100% free to have the relationship with him that they created with him--and I did not get in the way of that or influence that at all. However, when one parent chooses to leave their kids and go live with OP and their children, that choice carries consequences too; the cost of that one is your own kids are hurt by your actions!! The fact that your spouse chooses to tell the truth is not what hurts them.


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## Looking to heal (Jun 15, 2011)

In my view, it is really important to have the right motivation for the kids and it can't in any way be for personal reasons or to get back at WS. It can only be what is best for the kids.

I don't think anyone is saying never tell your children, it's finding the right age for the kids to be. I personally think it's when they are adults and have the right context.

Also, when hopefully 5 years from now when you and WS are both happy in some new situation what's the difference ?

If the question is: why are mommy and daddy getting divorced, TAM teaches us the following:

1. Marital problems are shared 50/50 prior to infidelity

2. BS would prefer WS should separate before infidelity (I wonder what that conversation would look like ?) Imagine WS had done that.

3. Deciding to go for R post infidelity is 100% up to BS if he/she offers the gift of R assuming remorse by WS

So again, what question do the kids want answered.

I could only see a case if WS cheated then left and never came back.

Other than that, think about what question your kids are asking and why you want to answer it now.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Looking to heal said:


> So again, what question do the kids want answered.


I`m pretty sure mine would ask first...
Why are you two getting divorced?

Can`t really bull**** that if my wife left me for another man can I?



> I could only see a case if WS cheated then left and never came back.


Divorce is "never coming back" as far as the kids are concerned.
It`s never the same again, it`s harder, more expensive, emotionally draining and painful.

Won`t bull**** that one either



> Other than that, think about what question your kids are asking and why you want to answer it now.


I`d want to answer it now so they have some context for understanding why the life they are used to and love has been destroyed in no time at all.

I think they deserve that at the very least.

Knowledge is power, the more detailed knowledge the more power the holder has.

When it comes right down to it my ONLY job as a parent is to empower my child.
Anything else is unacceptable to me and unfair to the child.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

tacoma said:


> I`m pretty sure mine would ask first...
> Why are you two getting divorced?
> 
> Can`t really bull**** that if my wife left me for another man can I?


But nobody is suggesting that you do. If you tell your children that you are getting divorced, but the exact reasons why are between husband and wife, that's not a lie. That's the truth.



tacoma said:


> I`d want to answer it now so they have some context for understanding why the life they are used to and love has been destroyed in no time at all.
> 
> I think they deserve that at the very least.
> 
> ...


I just disagree. Not all knowledge is power. Or, at least, it's not a good power. Some knowledge has the power to harm.

If two people are divorcing because the husband wants to live out a realistic rape fantasy during sex and the wife just can't stomach that, then I don't think the children deserve to know the truth. They may want to know the truth. But the truth won't help them understand the divorce, or deal with it better.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> But nobody is suggesting that you do. If you tell your children that you are getting divorced, but the exact reasons why are between husband and wife, that's not a lie. That's the truth.


It depends really.
If my wife cheats I will file for divorce.

Under your concept all my kids will know is that I divorced mommy and kicked her out of the house.

Again, no thanks I won`t punish myself in order to cover for my wayward wife.



> I just disagree. Not all knowledge is power. Or, at least, it's not a good power. Some knowledge has the power to harm.


Yes, all knowledge is power.
There is no "good" power or "bad" power.
Only the people who wield the power can do "good" or "bad".
All knowledge has the power to harm...all knowledge.



> If two people are divorcing because the husband wants to live out a realistic rape fantasy during sex and the wife just can't stomach that, then I don't think the children deserve to know the truth. They may want to know the truth. But the truth won't help them understand the divorce, or deal with it better.


"Honey, mom and dad want different things from a relationship and we can`t agree to a compromise."

This can lead to a simple "We are sexually incompatible" statement.

Look y`all seem to be getting the impression I think you should give a blow by blow of your cheating spouses sexual escapades when that is not what I`m promoting.

"Age Appropriate" discussion.

Show some respect for the child.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Tac, you know I love you, but what do you think "sexually incompatible" means to a child?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Zanna said:


> So regardless of what child psychologist says about the impact on the children later in life, they have no right to know?
> 
> Let's just go ahead and create another generation or rug sweepers and conflict avoiders regardless of the research and good advice from the experts on this very subject?
> 
> And I hate to tell you but Daddy is the villain in this story. No, she doesn't have to say that but the boys are going to figure it out someday on their own, and they don't need to resent mom or have a lack of trust in her word because she was protecting her H from the consequences of his poor choices.


:iagree:


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Pluto2 said:


> Hey. I do not lie to my children.
> I don't feed them bull****


I never said you did.



> and I don't like the way your comment takes a swipe at my children's intelligence.


WTF are you talking about?
I never referenced or made an implication about anyones intelligence other than someone I personally know.

You`re more than a bit defensive.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

lamaga said:


> Tac, you know I love you, but what do you think "sexually incompatible" means to a child?


We are talking about 10-12 year olds here.

You`re also talking to a father whose daughter came to him at the age of 4 asking what sex was and I told her... so maybe my parenting style ain`t for everyone.

My kid would know what "sexually incompatible" meant.

Disclaimer:

By noting the fact that my 11 year old would understand sexual incompatibility I am not in any way taking a swipe at anyone else's 11 year old who may or may not be aware of what sexual and/or incompatible means.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Well, my stepsons are 17 and they wouldn't have a clue what "sexually incompatible" means.

But, as always, Tac, I appreciate your honest responses.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Oh dear. I didn't mean to harm your self esteem. Experts claim that can be very damaging.


:wtf:

I'm assuming the smilie indicates you think your passive aggressive insult was funny or clever. I have no desire to engage in this kind of foolishness with you so moving on to the topic at hand...



PHTlump said:


> I have never claimed to be an expert. Although, I have done research. I enjoy Dr. Rosemond's books and columns. He's an expert. You don't have to take my word for things, you can take his.
> 
> Of course, you can play the dueling experts game. I know there are experts who will give advice that is diametrically opposed to mine and Rosemond's. But just because experts can't agree doesn't mean you need to get upset about conflicting advice.


I thought you didn't put much stock into child psychologists? I did look up his work and didn't find anything he said to be ground-breaking. Ironically, I found a couple of his tips which seem to suggest he believes in honesty and consequences. I couldn't find any statements to prove he condones lying to kid's about their parent's actions.

_Follow through with consequences. When your kids misbehave, calmly enforce appropriate consequences right away. Don't threaten, warn, give second chances, or make deals._

_Refuse to play the lying game. If your kids habitually lie to you, calmly tell them that you don't believe them and don't get caught up in a dramatic discussion. Stopping the drama should stop the behavior because they'll realize they're not getting attention for it anymore._


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> If two people are divorcing because the husband wants to live out a realistic rape fantasy during sex and the wife just can't stomach that, then I don't think the children deserve to know the truth. They may want to know the truth. But the truth won't help them understand the divorce, or deal with it better.


Talk about extrapolation.

How did you go from A to Z? 

As tacoma said, age appropriate discussions. No one is suggesting graphic details or diagrams. And how many people divorce over a discussion of fantasies anyway? The example above would probably be the conversation that was the slippery slope into infidelity.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

YellowRoses said:


> Don't worry guys, all views welcome
> 
> Actual experience even more so
> 
> At least I know I am not just being an emotional wimp about this - it really is a bloody minefield


Interesting discussion. My kids are 8 girl, 9 boy.

Like you Yellow Rose I am actually experiencing the same right here and now 

Been separated now for almost 6 weeks and my WS (you'll know the thread for details) was gone. 

As I insisted the kids would in no way feel this was my fault or original blame (as it wasn't) she was kind of happy to say "Mummy feels different and can't stay here and hurt Daddy any longer so she has to go away and its because of me this has happened"

I've noticed she is now (through what the kids say) trying to slightly 'amend' 'modify' that view.

That is beginning to piss me off more and more as I will never accept them thinking that I was in any way at the the root of all this misery that's befallen them.

Again, it has brought up that, probably like you, that I am actually defending this lying, cheating scumbag _again_

I had to lie when she previously did it from all friends and family as we reconciled time and time again to save her embarrassment and me feeling she needed to not undergo such a deep examination of her behavior to give her a 'proper chance with me' ( in retrospect, I know, my big mistake, I should have made her publicly confess to everything and deal with it)

And now when the more pointed questions are arriving from my kids I'm defending or deflecting once again, which does really grate on me as she simply does not deserve to be protected from her actions that have gone on for years.

I so want to tell them what a complete mental case their mother is and to tell them the whole truth of it all but I know deep down for me anyway that will destroy them even more and from me that is unfortunately something that they will find out about at a later date 

Difficulty with children is that having been through a divorce before I know they can easily become a weapon in the arms of the warring adults and that can ultimately take them even further into the abyss 

Every situation is different the children have different personalities.

Do I want my children to hate their mother for what she's done to them and me - YES I DO - if I'm honest

BUT - Can I let that actually happen knowing them hating her will warp their senses and definitely affect them even more at such tender important ages.? - No I can't

They do understand a lot and as people say more than they let on but for christ sake they are still children, still only 8 and 9 and so they do not deserve to have a fully adult sense of the world thrust onto their young shoulders and more over into their heads right now

Some days I wake up wanting to tell them but really I know that is coming from me not them so I can't. 

Infuriating end result - she feels she has largely got away with it happy to hurt me and happy that knowing I will not let the children suffer even more because of her actions 

Right now it is one of the reasons why I cannot let go of the inner rage I still have about it all

There is nothing easy about this and again when you next look into the eyes of your H you'll know it even more


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

YellowRoses,
I was thinking long and hard last night about your original question. What do you say when a young child asks "Did Dad have an affair?" and I realized what I would say. First, I would ask them questions. Do they really understand what having an affair means in a marriage? Why would it hurt someone? Then ask how they feel about it? This opens up an honest conversation you can have with them, after you determine exactly what they know and don't know. You can fill in the blanks in an age appropriate manner, without casting someone as the villain. I know that's a touchy word on this thread. But separate yourself from your own situation if you can for a moment. There is a difference between being a parent and being a spouse. Some people are good at both, and some aren't. I have no idea what your H was like as either. And other than knowing he's a cheater, few on this board do either. Best of luck.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

tacoma said:


> It depends really.
> If my wife cheats I will file for divorce.
> 
> Under your concept all my kids will know is that I divorced mommy and kicked her out of the house.


Wrong. Under my strategy, your children will know that their parents are divorcing. They won't know the reasons. And they won't know that you filed. They will only know that their parents are divorcing and won't be living together anymore.



tacoma said:


> Again, no thanks I won`t punish myself in order to cover for my wayward wife.


I don't see failing to be vindictive against your wife through your children as punishing yourself.



tacoma said:


> Yes, all knowledge is power.
> There is no "good" power or "bad" power.
> Only the people who wield the power can do "good" or "bad".
> All knowledge has the power to harm...all knowledge.


That's a cop out to avoid the responsibility of being a parent.

If all knowledge is morally neutral power, then we could show our young children R, X, and XXX films. It's just knowledge. We could sit down to the evening news so that our young children could hear of the latest school massacre, or global crisis. It's just knowledge.

Children are not short adults. Their brains are not fully developed. They don't have the capacity to understand many things. It's our job as parents to teach them the way the world works over time. Teach them age-appropriate truths during their childhood and adolescence.



tacoma said:


> Look y`all seem to be getting the impression I think you should give a blow by blow of your cheating spouses sexual escapades when that is not what I`m promoting.
> 
> "Age Appropriate" discussion.
> 
> Show some respect for the child.


It's good that your "all (or most) knowledge is fine for children" view has limits. I suppose I will simply disagree that the knowledge that one of his parents is an adulterer is not appropriate for a young child.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Zanna said:


> :wtf:
> 
> I'm assuming the smilie indicates you think your passive aggressive insult was funny or clever.


Exactly.  It was a witty response to a prickly comment of yours without getting prickly myself. That's not passive aggressive.



Zanna said:


> I thought you didn't put much stock into child psychologists? I did look up his work and didn't find anything he said to be ground-breaking.


I don't. And neither does Dr. Rosemond. Much of his work focuses on reversing the expert-driven child rearing practices of the last several decades and getting back to raising children the way our great-grandparents did. Self-esteem be damned.



Zanna said:


> Ironically, I found a couple of his tips which seem to suggest he believes in honesty and consequences. I couldn't find any statements to prove he condones lying to kid's about their parent's actions.


He doesn't condone lying to children. And neither do I. It's curious that people can interpret my recommendation to withhold information from children as lying. It's not. I've checked the definition of lying just to be sure that I'm correct in its usage. I am.

For the record, here is a link to a column Rosemond wrote where he recommends telling your children that you are divorcing, but refusing to tell them why.
The Spokesman-Review - Google News Archive Search


John Rosemond; said:


> Do not editorialize. Tell the children "what," but not "why." If they ask "why?" questions, tell them simply this is a decision moms and dads sometimes make, and you're sure it will work out well for everyone. Under no circumstances blame each other or put each other down.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Zanna said:


> Talk about extrapolation.
> 
> How did you go from A to Z?
> 
> As tacoma said, age appropriate discussions. No one is suggesting graphic details or diagrams.


I'm glad that the consistent recommendations for the ugly truth to be shared with children have their limits. I was simply asking if that was the case.

There are a few of you on record as being in favor of telling young children that their parents are adulterers. I was simply curious if these young children had the right to know whether their parents were perverts, or criminals, or something equally devastating.

Given that you and tacoma seem to agree that young children do, indeed, deserve to be protected from damaging information, our disagreement seems to be centered on what information is damaging to young children. I think the knowledge that a parent is an adulterer is damaging.

As an aside, I also believe that some information is just outside a child's right to know. Such as the intimate details of a marriage that may lead to divorce. By viewing marriage as between a husband and wife, with children outside of the relationship, I seem to be in the minority. Nevertheless, I still believe that children should be involved as little as possible in the inner workings of a marriage.


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## YellowRoses (Jun 2, 2012)

OK, PHTlump and Zanna, I know I said all opinions welcome but you two are just getting what we Brits call ar*ey with each other and perhaps need to take it outside


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## Looking to heal (Jun 15, 2011)

I suppose of infidelity is a deal breaker in a marriage then it would be correct to say that the divorce is due to infidelity.

For many it is not a deal breaker or they think it is and when it happens, they change their mind and want to work on the marriage.

For them, if the child is asking why are you divorcing ? Maybe correct answer is that R failed or problems before or whatever.

That is a different question than: Did you cheat on mommy or daddy ?

Anyways, I can think of many times when we are selective with information we give our kids.

When they are teenagers, we may not tell them about our own behaviour back in the day. 

Kids look to their parents as an example and I think we have to be careful in how we present ourselves to them.

I am in almost the same position as Headspin and have almost the same views.

It really really sucks. But everyone is trying to do what they feel is best for their kids and not everyone raises their kids in the same way.

What might be helpful to Yellow Roses is hearing some practical examples of when people told or didn't tell and what effect it had on the kids.


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