# Sexual incompatibility. What ways have you overcome them in long term relationships?



## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

Sexual incompatibility in marriages and relationships comes in many flavors.

Some partners have a lot of sexual experience and others have minimal or none.

Some are selfish partners, in bed I mean.

Some only like vanilla things in the bedroom and others are way at the other end of the spectrum.

Lastly, communication issues greatly affect sexual issues in a relationship too.

I'm looking for examples and ways folks in long term relationships have overcome sexual compatibility issues in their relationships.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Dumping the other partner and replacing them with someone or multiple someone’s who are actually compatible, is an extremely effective way to fix such problems.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

That’s extremely broad, is there a point here or specific question?


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

I came here and complained about it. Didn't really do much but I felt better for it LOL

I don't always agree with Personal but in reality, I think thats all you can really do. Don't think you can ever get someone to be "more" sexual as I don't believe you can change those aspects of another person.

Sure you can reach a compromise with something like the frequency of sex but that may be it.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Your only hope would be to find someone who's willing to lovingly compromise with and provide for the higher drive partner, which can be done. There are people who intellectually appreciate the relationship benefits of a satisfying sex life even if not so much into the sex per se.

But not every LD partner is willing to do so. And all HD people aren't willing to have sex with their partner who isn't dripping wet or rock hard off the bat.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I trained her. She trained me a bit too.😉


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

DTO said:


> Your only hope would be to find someone who's willing to lovingly compromise with and provide for the higher drive partner, which can be done. There are people who intellectually appreciate the relationship benefits of a satisfying sex life even if not so much into the sex per se.
> 
> But not every LD partner is willing to do so. And all HD people aren't willing to have sex with their partner who isn't dripping wet or rock hard off the bat.


DTO described the unicorn, a rare but not unheard of mate.

If sexually incompatible best bet is don't let a str turn into a ltr.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Adjustment of the thermostat by the hotter partner gradually, until it reaches zero. 

It there is no change at that point, @Personal suggestion is really the only option left. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Adjustment of the thermostat by the hotter partner gradually, until it reaches zero.
> 
> It there is no change at that point, @Personal suggestion is really the only option left.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Hate this answer!

Truth is, what truth does.


L-


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> I'm looking for examples and ways folks in long term relationships have overcome sexual compatibility issues in their relationships.


Through the long, slow, and sometimes agonizing process of acceptance. Which does not necessarily "overcome" in the sense you might be using it. @minimalME has a thread right now on changing your spouse, and this is just another avenue where we try to change our partner. So for my sexually incompatible marriage, changing my view of why things were as they were and diminishing my sense of entitlement with this particular person who was not capable of that kind of growth has helped, to a point.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

DTO said:


> Your only hope would be to find someone who's willing to lovingly compromise with and provide for the higher drive partner, which can be done. There are people who intellectually appreciate the relationship benefits of a satisfying sex life even if not so much into the sex per se.
> 
> But not every LD partner is willing to do so. And all HD people aren't willing to have sex with their partner who isn't dripping wet or rock hard off the bat.


While others have indicated this is rare. I don't see why both willingly and lovingly compromise isn't an option. The lower drive partner steps up more often than their ideal and the higher drive partner accepts it isn't going to happen every time they wish it. All relationships are a compromise on almost every subject.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Divorce is the fix. The rest is just a bunch of transactional manipulative BS that ends in unsatisfactory results. You can’t fundamentally change people that way .... unless they want it as bad as the other ..... which is rare.... very very rare. Many people come up with endless BS justification of why they stay in such a situation but in reality it is just Self denial they choose to suck down instead of actually doing something about it.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> While others have indicated this is rare. I don't see why both willingly and lovingly compromise isn't an option. The lower drive partner steps up more often than their ideal and the higher drive partner accepts it isn't going to happen every time they wish it. All relationships are a compromise on almost every subject.


The problem I think is the LD partner is never really wanting to change or compromise as THEY were the start of the problem. Some may agree to more frequent sex but its likley to be "duty sex" and not really great and exciting.

I think its like a kid who hates certain vegetables. The parents can probably get them to eat some through bribery and begging but they still aren't going to be excited about eating them and will just do so reluctantly.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> The problem I think is the LD partner is never really wanting to change or compromise as THEY were the start of the problem. Some may agree to more frequent sex but its likley to be "duty sex" and not really great and exciting.
> 
> I think its like a kid who hates certain vegetables. The parents can probably get them to eat some through bribery and begging but they still aren't going to be excited about eating them and will just do so reluctantly.


It's always easy for the HD partner to say well they are the problem. Guess what? I don't really think that's the case. I won't highjack the thread so I'll leave it at that.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> While others have indicated this is rare. I don't see why both willingly and lovingly compromise isn't an option. The lower drive partner steps up more often than their ideal and the higher drive partner accepts it isn't going to happen every time they wish it. All relationships are a compromise on almost every subject.


Let's take a vote, how many think an LD will increase and the HD will live with high turn down rates, as a long term success, without this problem causing more problems?

I vote not many.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Let's take a vote, how many think an LD will increase and the HD will live with high turn down rates, as a long term success, without this problem causing more problems?
> 
> I vote not many.


Do not need a vote. I'm sure the crowd here will come and say it doesn't work the poor HD shouldn't put up with it. But in no relationship is everything evenly balanced and there are plenty of long term relationship that work out without problems. I feel the way you deal with problems is more important than the problem.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> It's always easy for the HD partner to say well they are the problem. Guess what? I don't really think that's the case. I won't highjack the thread so I'll leave it at that.


Neither is the problem. 

No individual who doesn't have an actual psychological issue is the root of a couple's sexual problems in marriage. Like every human trait, our sexual preferences have a broad range of normal. It's only when we try to match our sexuality with another's that we have trouble. 

It takes two to tango horizontally.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> Do not need a vote. I'm sure the crowd here will come and say it doesn't work the poor HD shouldn't put up with it. But in no relationship is everything evenly balanced and there are plenty of long term relationship that work out without problems. I feel the way you deal with problems is more important than the problem.


The advice usually offered, that one should dump an otherwise perfectly good spouse over sexual challenges, combined with a bias that anyone who doesn't do this is weak, is IMHO one of the great shortcomings here.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Cletus said:


> The advice usually offered, that one should dump an otherwise perfectly good spouse over sexual challenges, combined with a bias that anyone who doesn't do this is weak, is IMHO one of the great shortcomings here.


I don't disagree things here tilt that way in a lot of cases. But remember the context; the imbalance has usually been going on for years, most have tried the obvious fixes with no improvements and the level of frustration in the M has lead said poster to a marriage problems forum. 

THAT is the pool majority of sex related posters, male and female. Context is everything.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> It's always easy for the HD partner to say well they are the problem. Guess what? I don't really think that's the case. I won't highjack the thread so I'll leave it at that.


Well if the HD partner was LD, there wouldn't be a problem would there? Or vice versa.

I get what you are saying just back to my original point that no matter WHO is the problem, any difference is desires between partners is going to be a problem that is hard to solve.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Cletus said:


> Neither is the problem.
> 
> No individual who doesn't have an actual psychological issue is the root of a couple's sexual problems in marriage. Like every human trait, our sexual preferences have a broad range of normal. It's only when we try to match our sexuality with another's that we have trouble.
> 
> It takes two to tango horizontally.


Good point.

My wife would say I am the problem as I want too much sex. I say she is as she doesn't want it enough. Who is right? Not sure?

But I am sure it bothers her as much as me as she gets tired of me trying to initiate and I get tired of her saying No.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Good point.
> 
> My wife would say I am the problem as I want too much sex. I say she is as she doesn't want it enough. Who is right? Not sure?
> 
> But I am sure it bothers her as much as me as she gets tired of me trying to initiate and I get tired of her saying No.


Thousands nay 100s of thousands of circumstances recapped accurately right here. 👍


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Thousands nay 100s of thousands of circumstances recapped accurately right here. 👍


Yep. And if I had an answer (other than just divorce) I would be a millionaire!


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> The problem I think is the LD partner is never really wanting to change or compromise as THEY were the start of the problem. Some may agree to more frequent sex but its likley to be "duty sex" and not really great and exciting.
> 
> I think its like a kid who hates certain vegetables. The parents can probably get them to eat some through bribery and begging but they still aren't going to be excited about eating them and will just do so reluctantly.


Yeah who the hell wants broccoli sex ??? Yuck !!


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

You know, partners may have the exact same sex drive and still have issues of sexual compatibility.

It's far too simple to just talk about sex drive and how often folks want sex. There is a heck of a lot MORE to sex than just how often folks have it.

There are things online, questionnaires and such about sex that couples may take, like the MojoUpgrade quiz. 

I figured that many on here would be versed in things they've done over the decades, talks they've had, ideas they've come up with to help their sexual life with their partners.

For instance, with one partner, he and I would each write out things, a scenario, on 6 different index cards and we'd put them into one of my children's plastic Halloween baskets and then we'd take turns picking out an index card and that was the scenario we'd do with each other that time. It could be things like lighting candles, getting wine, filling the tub with bubbles, having the children stay with others like family so he and I could be alone and do what was written on that specific index card that night with each other.

I've had sex at each hour of the day (not in the same day, but over almost two weeks) because he wanted that one time.

We've had sex in each room of the house, in the car while it's in the garage and even on the staircase leading to upstairs.

We have talks about sex while not having sex, like on walks in the neighborhood as that's one way to talk about sex that makes it easier for me.

Sometimes we have sex that's all about me, sometimes we have sex that's all about him. Most times we have sex that's for both of us.

Sometimes we have quickies, sometimes we have sex for a few hours, in front of the fireplace, in the hot tub, in our bedroom, taking a break for wine and snacks etc.

My point is that sex shouldn't be the same way each time. Sex shouldn't only happen at night or in the morning or only on the weekends.

I was just wanting to hear what many others do to help put some more arrows in my quiver was all but I guess I didn't do a good enough job of explaining that, so that's on me. 

Different toys, lubes, different types of roleplay are things I was looking for too.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

I see the problem as much deeper than just low drive vs. high drive.

If my MONOGAMOUS partner doesn't CARE about my sexual needs at all, what else is there to do but find someone else??

If a partner refused to share their money, or refused to contribute to household chores, or refused to speak to their spouse, then the advice would invariably be the SAME from anyone who says sex shouldn't be a big deal....WHY is there a discrepancy?? 

For some reason, when it's sex, the person who isn't getting enough is seen as selfish by those same people who believe an emotionally withholding spouse should be divorced just as quickly as they criticize others for saying a sex withholding spouse should be divorced. I've never heard anyone say, "well, he's just not emotionally into you, so you need to learn to live without that from him and not get that need met from anyone else either, while you keep meeting his other needs".

Yet THAT is what people try to say when it's a sexual need. I find that hypocritical.

ALL of those relationship issues are the same. It's about personal needs that marriage is supposed to meet, and the selfishness and uncaring attitude of the withholding partner.

And when you cannot get your monogamous partner to CARE about any of your needs (not just sexual), then what other choice is there except divorce??


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> You know, partners may have the exact same sex drive and still have issues of sexual compatibility.
> 
> It's far too simple to just talk about sex drive and how often folks want sex. There is a heck of a lot MORE to sex than just how often folks have it.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have it pretty good and have a compatble partner(s). 

Good for you as its nice to hear your perspective. (Can you email some of those to my wife?) 

Thats awesome.


I guess the only thing I would add is once you are married to someone who really isn't into sex, all the things you mentioned never really happen (the survey, the open discussions, the variety) It just doesn't occur.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I’m 57 years old and have had some LTRs, a marriage, some FWBs etc over the years and so far the only thing that has actually worked to resolve the incompatibility issue has been to move on to someone more compatible. 

I’m still hoping to somehow unlock some mysterious, magical solution but thus far it has eluded me.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> I was just wanting to hear what many others do to help put some more arrows in my quiver was all but I guess I didn't do a good enough job of explaining that, so that's on me.


I didn't answer your post as a frequency problem. That might be the easiest issue to solve.

Having a quiver absolutely brimming with arrows does you no good if your partner is afraid of arrows.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> ALL of those relationship issues are the same. It's about personal needs that marriage is supposed to meet, and the selfishness and uncaring attitude of the withholding partner.


For some of us, uncaring is a pretty gross mischaracterization of the spouse who has difficulty meeting our needs.

You're a highly sexual person, so perhaps you don't understand what it is like for someone who finds a large part of the sexual world literally nauseating. As in sick to your stomach, want to curl up in a ball, just cannot do it averse. 

Who, expecting their spouse to perform in that case would truly be the uncaring partner?


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Cletus said:


> For some of us, uncaring is a pretty gross mischaracterization of the spouse who has difficulty meeting our needs.
> 
> You're a highly sexual person, so perhaps *you don't understand what it is like for someone who finds a large part of the sexual world literally nauseating. As in sick to your stomach, want to curl up in a ball, just cannot do it averse. *
> 
> Who, expecting their spouse to perform in that case would truly be the uncaring partner?


Come on, what you describe here is a very uncommon scenario that has nothing to do with the vast majority of LD spouses.

What you describe is someone who is either:
1. Suffering from a serious psychological pathology or trauma, and is not capable of being a fully functional / healthy spouse. 
2. One of the incredibly rare people who are actually asexual, and therefore not a suitable spouse 
3. Just not sexually attracted to YOU.

So someone married to a spouse like you describe above is likely either trying to fix someone who is not capable of being a fully functional spouse, or making / accepting excuses so as to protect their ego from the reality that their spouse just isn’t sexually attracted to them.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> The problem I think is the LD partner is never really wanting to change or compromise as THEY were the start of the problem.


From the LD perspective there is no problem. They’re not interested or they never even think about sex so what problem is there from their perspective?

The way the LD CAN or COULD have a problem is if they want to remain in the relationship and the HD is fed up with the lack of intimacy and is ready to leave. At that point the LD starts to understand that it isn’t just sex for the HD, it is a critical missing component to the relationship that the LD is refusing to participate in.

Once they know this and believe the HD will follow through and leave if nothing changes, well now they’re aware of a problem. Even if they don’t really understand it all they way they understand what leaving means.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> It's always easy for the HD partner to say well they are the problem. Guess what? I don't really think that's the case. I won't highjack the thread so I'll leave it at that.


That's an interesting perspective. To learn more, let's see where that goes.

Let's take it from that pov.

What examples or support for your position can you offer?


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

And while a few have mentioned frequency may not be the problem, I do think its the first step to solving any problems. If you are only having sex 1-2x a month, there isn't really a way you could expect the quality or appreciation of it to get better.

Its like playing an instrument, if you only practice once or twice a month, you are not going to be any good.

I think A18's reply above where she lists all the things to do to keep a sex life going is great. But it shows the willingness of BOTH partners to do so. I think that reply is what defines a great sex life.

I can come up with all of those items on my own but if I don't have a partner who is interested, they are useless.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I can come up with all of those items on my own but if I don't have a partner who is interested, they are useless.


Big time cart before the horse. Sex that isn’t happening the quality is zero.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> Big time cart before the horse. Sex that isn’t happening the quality is zero.


Yeah I know. That was my point hence why I said I think frequency is indeed important


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Having experienced incompatibility first hand, I still don't have an answer. Sorry.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> Having experienced incompatibility first hand, I still don't have an answer. Sorry.


I don't think some of us ever will my friend.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> For some of us, uncaring is a pretty gross mischaracterization of the spouse who has difficulty meeting our needs.
> 
> You're a highly sexual person, so perhaps you don't understand what it is like for someone who finds a large part of the sexual world literally nauseating. As in sick to your stomach, want to curl up in a ball, just cannot do it averse.
> 
> Who, expecting their spouse to perform in that case would truly be the uncaring partner?


It's not because I'm a highly sexual person, so I don't understand...it's because I'm a highly loving and caring person, so I cannot understand denying such an important need for my partner ever. 

First, I would never ever "expect" anyone to perform or meet my needs for anything in a relationship...however, anyone who wants to be in a monogamous relationship with me will have to make the choice to nurture and embrace my sexuality and to share his with me. It will always be his choice. But if I'm expected to be a happy, giving partner, then he needs to choose to meet my sexual needs just as faithfully as meeting any of my other needs for emotional connection and communication and joining me in my life in a way that is meaningful for me. Sex doesn't get some special status of being optional, it will be like ALL my other needs...and if my partner doesn't want to meet my needs, sexual or emotional, I would be understanding, but then we would need to rethink whether we have a true, loving partnership.

Also, the type of person that you describe above is VERY rare. Most people are sexual beings, it's part of our biology to want sex when we are healthy. So NO, I don't understand what you described at all...but neither do most of the sex-refusing people, because most of them are not refusing sex for those reasons.

You make it sound like I must not have any experience myself with being confronted with (non-sexual) needs that my partner had that were inconvenient or even repulsive for me personally to meet in my relationship...but I absolutely do. Most of us do.

There are plenty of things that we will do for our partners out of genuine LOVE and CARE for them that we don't want to do or might not choose for ourselves, and that act of GIVING to our partners selflessly is deeply rewarding and satisfying. Which then turns the "annoying" task into something that felt intimate and joyful, for me anyway. And everyone would agree that I was a wonderful, loving partner for doing those things. 

But it's totally opposite when it comes to sex.

I remember my mother snorting at me when I had two tiny boys under 2yrs old, when I told her I never said No to sex with my husband, that I would never do that to him or to to our marriage or myself!! She was disgusted and even mocked me over it. I just told her SHE was being selfish and silly. But she was angry at me, I could tell!

YET...two years later when my husband got a terrible infection in his foot, and was at home on IV antibiotics (from a daily visiting nurse), she was very clear that it was my wifely duty to help him go to the bathroom in a bedpan and dispose of that and clean it (and him) all up, so he didn't have to be humiliated by a nurse or anyone else doing that.
It was MY DUTY to care for him that way and meet his needs that way. And I agreed with her, of course, but I remember noting the discrepancy in what she considered viable "needs" in a marriage. And I believed she was a hypocrite.

And receiving my husband's inconvenient sexual attention with excitement and warmth was so much easier and way more fun than taking care of that bedpan!!!

So I see a strange classification of sex by most people, and I just completely disagree with doing that. In NO way will it ever be an optional need to meet in any of my monogamous relationships. Just like any other need that my partner will look to me to provide.

And I absolutely consider it an act of love from him to desire me and see me as a sexual person FIRST...as HIS sexual person...and if I'm expecting monogamy from him, then why would I ever ever refuse to welcome him as MY sexual person?? I would only do that if I didn't love and care for him.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> That's an interesting perspective. To learn more, let's see where that goes.
> 
> Let's take it from that pov.
> 
> What examples or support for your position can you offer?


Sorry been here long enough I don’t feel like trying to have a reasoned conversation about how both partners are the problem.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> And I absolutely consider it an act of love from him to desire me and see me as a sexual person FIRST...as HIS sexual person...and if I'm expecting monogamy from him, then why would I ever ever refuse to welcome him as MY sexual person?? I would only do that if I didn't love and care for him.


I just don't think everyone sees it that way but if they did, many of us would be MUCH happier.

I won't bore you with the cut and paste but long ago I started a post whereby my wife said "Just because I don't want to have sex with you, doesn't mean I don't love you". She has said it again a time or two since then as she sincerely believes they are mutually exclusive. YET, she would not endorse sex outside of marriage (ie us not being monogamous)

I think some people (such as my wife) don't equate that idea of love and sex to people like me are a direct correlation while to her, she can experience love but sex does not have to be part of it to do so.

Just my thoughts of course. I could be wrong.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I just don't think everyone sees it that way but if they did, many of us would be MUCH happier.
> 
> I won't bore you with the cut and paste but long ago I started a post whereby my wife said "Just because I don't want to have sex with you, doesn't mean I don't love you". She has said it again a time or two since then as she sincerely believes they are mutually exclusive. YET, she would not endorse sex outside of marriage (ie us not being monogamous)
> 
> ...


Many women have bought the feminist line that sex can be separated from love.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

DudeInProgress said:


> Come on, what you describe here is a very uncommon scenario that has nothing to do with the vast majority of LD spouses.
> 
> What you describe is someone who is either:
> 1. Suffering from a serious psychological pathology or trauma, and is not capable of being a fully functional / healthy spouse.
> ...


A lot to unpack here.

You have never heard of someone who finds the idea of oral sex disgusting? They are not exactly a rare species. To someone who craves that in a sexual relationship, that's going to be a problem.

What if you're really into anal, but your partner finds it uncomfortable or, again, disgusting?

How about light BDSM? Lots of folks aren't too keen on restraints, ball gags, or whips.

What I describe isn't someone who is sexually flawed. What I describe is two people with a significant sexual mismatch.

I'll take a hard pass on the victim blaming part. Confusing a person's sexual preferences for a lack of attraction to their partner is not a problem I'm concerned with. When it comes to humans, the word "normal" encompasses a pretty wide spectrum of behavior. Two people too far apart are going to find the road a little rough.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> "Just because I don't want to have sex with you, doesn't mean I don't love you". She has said it again a time or two since then as she sincerely believes they are mutually exclusive. YET, she would not endorse sex outside of marriage (ie us not being monogamous)


Yeah that’s fine sometimes. 

I want to have sex twice a day generally. Once a day is OK. Zero for a single day… annoying. Zero for a few days in a row ok now there is a problem.

Maybe this is what @Anastasia6 is saying. My wife’s natural libido varies from zero to maybe a few times a month but depending on her mood and cycle sometimes she can jump up quite a lot.

So on the days when she isn’t feeling it at all and she has zero interest that is fine to a point and yes it doesn’t mean she doesn’t love me, she could just care less about sex and it never enters her mind.

She is well aware that is a problem for me if she’s not coming to bed.

She procrastinates and puts off tasks and chores and does them at the last second. She’s late for things all the time. That’s just how she is, so she will think about it and go, “Oh I can not attend to him because I’m playing Candy Crush and my day sucked and I don’t want to have goo leaking out of me”. It takes a lot of energy for her and she works hard and she’s tired. If she says, “I’m tired.” I never try to initiate.

Again this is like @Anastasia6 said something that I as the HD changed. I can imagine how annoying it would be if you’re exhausted to have some big guy poking you with a boner, and if he’s doing that repeatedly what would the effect be? Not good I think.

So while the LD is the gatekeeper it really is up to both people to get them to open the gate.

So if my wife said, “I don’t want to have sex with you.” My question would be, “Why not?” and then you have to listen and believe what she is saying. I found that very hard at first.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Cletus said:


> What I describe is two people with a significant sexual mismatch.


I think generally people who were not mismatched at the start of the relationship, possibly for years, and suddenly everything dries up are a completely different situation.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I just don't think everyone sees it that way but if they did, many of us would be MUCH happier.
> 
> I won't bore you with the cut and paste but long ago I started a post whereby my wife said "Just because I don't want to have sex with you, doesn't mean I don't love you". She has said it again a time or two since then as she sincerely believes they are mutually exclusive. YET, she would not endorse sex outside of marriage (ie us not being monogamous)
> 
> ...


Personally, I believe there are many women who think that men put too much emphasis on sex and that marriage can be fine just with friendship and companionship. We are seen as shallow individuals, who only think about sex and are prepared to leave an otherwise good marriage "just for sex"... the problem is, lots of men just go along with it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> It's not because I'm a highly sexual person, so I don't understand...it's because I'm a highly loving and caring person, so I cannot understand denying such an important need for my partner ever.


Have you ever had to overcome disgust or extreme anxiety over a sexual act for your husband? If so, did that act ever become truly enjoyable for you? If it did not, and your husband was aware of that perpetual dislike and continued to push for that act, then I would call him (or anyone in that position) uncaring about your feelings. I would not call you uncaring for not being able to overcome your intrinsic distaste, if it ran deep enough. 

I'm not talking about "meh" things that you could take or leave. I'm talking about things that if you had your way would never be a part of your sexual repertoire ever again.[/QUOTE]


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I just don't think everyone sees it that way but if they did, many of us would be MUCH happier.
> 
> I won't bore you with the cut and paste but long ago I started a post whereby my wife said "Just because I don't want to have sex with you, doesn't mean I don't love you". She has said it again a time or two since then as she sincerely believes they are mutually exclusive. YET, she would not endorse sex outside of marriage (ie us not being monogamous)
> 
> ...


I love lots of people I don't want to have sex with. Lots. That's normal. 

I'm not married to any of them, though, because marriage is a sexual relationship. 

Your wife wants the benefits of being married without having to actually participate in a sexual marriage. And by staying in the relationship, you age agreeing with her that your wife doesn’t need to want to have sex with you.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> I think generally people who were not mismatched at the start of the relationship, possibly for years, and suddenly everything dries up are a completely different situation.


Probably. There is still a (albeit shrinking) group who believes sex should be reserved for marriage. They don't get to discover their incompatibility until the honeymoon.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I just don't think everyone sees it that way but if they did, many of us would be MUCH happier.
> 
> I won't bore you with the cut and paste but long ago I started a post whereby my wife said "Just because I don't want to have sex with you, doesn't mean I don't love you". She has said it again a time or two since then as she sincerely believes they are mutually exclusive. YET, she would not endorse sex outside of marriage (ie us not being monogamous)
> 
> ...


From the things you've posted about your wife (sexual and non-sexual), she sounds very selfish and entitled to me, so I am not surprised that she thinks of your sex life as only existing to meet HER needs (and expectations).


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Livvie said:


> I love lots of people I don't want to have sex with. Lots. That's normal.
> 
> I'm not married to any of them, though, because marriage is a sexual relationship.
> 
> Your wife wants the benefits of being married without having to actually participate in a sexual marriage. And by staying in the relationship, you age agreeing with her that your wife doesn’t need to want to have sex with you.


PERFECT explanation.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> Probably. There is still a (albeit shrinking) group who believes sex should be reserved for marriage. They don't get to discover their incompatibility until the honeymoon.


Yes, but that same group also believes that neither partner is allowed withhold sex or sexual acts from their spouse, so that's supposed to take care of the incompatibilities that might crop up.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Anastasia6 said:


> It's always easy for the HD partner to say well they are the problem. Guess what? I don't really think that's the case. I won't highjack the thread so I'll leave it at that.


That's not it. The problem is a joint thing. The problem is that the LD are infrequently part of the solution. Even here, a sex-positive site, we hear mostly of HD partners either sucking it up or moving on. We rarely hear about LD spouses stepping up their game for a true compromise, much less rising up to the HD spouse's level.

The issue is sex is an expecteation of marriage. It is the flip side of monogamy. If you expect me to save myself for you, you created an expectation you will meet that need - not perfectly, but enough to provide a sex life that is a relationship positive.

If you don't believe me, tell your future partner or spouse "I expect you to be faithful even if that means being essentially sexless" and see what happens. You don't get to wish away your partner's sex drive or acknowledge only those traits you prefer.

More importantly, if you're truly LD then you need to find a partner with similar drive of stay single. The issue is that, particularly if you are young, finding an LD partner who meets your needs is very difficult. So then people settle and figure it will work, and that's probably the source of a good number of the conflicts we see now.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> *Have you ever had to overcome disgust or extreme anxiety over a sexual act for your husband? If so, did that act ever become truly enjoyable for you?* If it did not, and your husband was aware of that perpetual dislike and continued to push for that act, then I would call him (or anyone in that position) uncaring about your feelings. I would not call you uncaring for not being able to overcome your intrinsic distaste, if it ran deep enough.
> 
> I'm not talking about "meh" things that you could take or leave. I'm talking about things that if you had your way would never be a part of your sexual repertoire ever again.


[/QUOTE]
YES and YES. Do you think girls are excited to realize they are expected to have that strange looking thing called a penis touching that back of their throats? Lol!!!

Most women feel like your wife did/does.

And if I had never gotten over my fear and nervousness and discomfort with giving my partner oral (which took about a year), I would have become an enthusiastic connoisseur of hand jobs or whatever else, to make up for that. 
My first husband actually preferred the way I touched him over getting oral.

It's not the reluctance to engage in the act...it's the attitude.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Yes, but that same group also believes that neither partner is allowed withhold sex or sexual acts from their spouse, so that's supposed to take care of the incompatibilities that might crop up.


That's a position I have not heard until today. 

Not withholding sex, check. That's mainstream.

Not withhold any sexual acts? Surely you don't really mean that - anything sexual a spouse might desire is REQUIRED? Even Dan Savage doesn't go that far! If that is truly your belief, you'd certainly make a great partner, but I think it puts you well out of the mainstream.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> It's not the reluctance to engage in the act...it's the attitude.


For you, I don't doubt that's true. I have heard many others on this site (@DownByTheRiver comes to mind, recently) who are not sex averse but who very much disagree.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Cletus said:


> The advice usually offered, that one should dump an otherwise perfectly good spouse over sexual challenges, combined with a bias that anyone who doesn't do this is weak, is IMHO one of the great shortcomings here.


Two problems: the first is that "otherwise perfectly good" implies that sex is not (or at least should not be) essential to a relationship. But that's simply is not true for everyone. Say I had a car that looks great - shiny paint, good interior, but the engine is bad and it won't pass inspection. If you tell me "other than that it's a perfectly good car" I will tell tell you it doesn't meet my minimum standard for a car.

And so it is with a sex life for many of us. I personally am content alone and would rather remain so than be in a sexless relationship. Sure the sex will ebb and flow, but on the whole it should be satisfying or I'm out.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> Have you ever had to overcome disgust or extreme anxiety over a sexual act for your husband? If so, did that act ever become truly enjoyable for you? *If it did not, and your husband was aware of that perpetual dislike and continued to push for that act, then I would call him (or anyone in that position) uncaring about your feelings. I would not call you uncaring for not being able to overcome your intrinsic distaste, if it ran deep enough.*
> 
> I'm not talking about "meh" things that you could take or leave. I'm talking about things that if you had your way would never be a part of your sexual repertoire ever again.


[/QUOTE]
I guess so, maybe....but I still think it's very uncaring to be so repulsed by your partner's body and sexual organs. 
That's a rejection that builds a huge wall between you that is only negative - you might be able to live with it, but it takes away from your intimacy and connection. 

When people are willing to SURRENDER themselves to being intimate and sexual with their partner, they might find they are not as inhibited or anxious about all kinds of things that seem disgusting from a cold, disconnected point of view.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

DTO said:


> And so it is with a sex life for many of us. I personally am content alone and would rather remain so than be in a sexless relationship.


As would I. I am not referring to sexless. That's another problem altogether.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> It's not because I'm a highly sexual person, so I don't understand...it's because I'm a highly loving and caring person, so I cannot understand denying such an important need for my partner ever.
> 
> First, I would never ever "expect" anyone to perform or meet my needs for anything in a relationship...however, anyone who wants to be in a monogamous relationship with me will have to make the choice to nurture and embrace my sexuality and to share his with me. It will always be his choice. But if I'm expected to be a happy, giving partner, then he needs to choose to meet my sexual needs just as faithfully as meeting any of my other needs for emotional connection and communication and joining me in my life in a way that is meaningful for me. Sex doesn't get some special status of being optional, it will be like ALL my other needs...and if my partner doesn't want to meet my needs, sexual or emotional, I would be understanding, but then we would need to rethink whether we have a true, loving partnership.
> 
> ...


Wow, very beautiful post. I think my wife thinks this way too however I think wives like this are becoming rare- maybe because selfish bastards destroy women like this.

The other side of the coin is that husbands sometimes need to put on their big boy pants and not turn into whiny little crybabies when they aren’t getting any… Clearly, a *lot* of men either shut down emotionally, run off to porn, or just take advantage of their wife’s kindness the *moment* they feel a tinge of sexual frustration…. any man that can’t withstand a little frustration- ain’t really a man.

Marriage is give/take…. sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes… it eats you.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> I guess so, maybe....but I still think it's very uncaring to be so repulsed by your partner's body and sexual organs.


See, I just can't accept this. 

Is it uncaring that I hate Brussels Sprouts? I am of the opinion that we do not choose most or our likes and dislikes in life. Caring has nothing to do with how we feel, only with how we manage those feelings.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> That's a position I have not heard until today.
> 
> Not withholding sex, check. That's mainstream.
> 
> Not withhold any sexual acts? Surely you don't really mean that - anything sexual a spouse might desire is REQUIRED? Even Dan Savage doesn't go that far! If that is truly your belief, you'd certainly make a great partner, but I think it puts you well out of the mainstream.


That's not my belief...that's Biblical, just like the admonition to save sex for marriage (which I also don't believe in). But as always, it was very general and could be interpreted all kinds of ways.

You keep trying to make this about extreme sex acts. And that's not what I'm talking about. That's a totally different topic.

I am talking about meeting sexual needs. And how I believe that should be negotiated. No one else has to agree with me.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> See, I just can't accept this.
> 
> Is it uncaring that I hate Brussels Sprouts? I am of the opinion that we do not choose most or our likes and dislikes in life. Caring has nothing to do with how we feel, only with how we manage those feelings.


Well, that's lucky for your wife then. I am glad you've made peace with what your wife was willing to give.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ccpowerslave said:


> From the LD perspective there is no problem. They’re not interested or they never even think about sex so what problem is there from their perspective?
> 
> The way the LD CAN or COULD have a problem is if they want to remain in the relationship and the HD is fed up with the lack of intimacy and is ready to leave. At that point the LD starts to understand that it isn’t just sex for the HD, it is a critical missing component to the relationship that the LD is refusing to participate in.
> 
> Once they know this and believe the HD will follow through and leave if nothing changes, well now they’re aware of a problem. Even if they don’t really understand it all they way they understand what leaving means.


The problem is that even if the LD spouse truly doesn't want it, they are not dumb and realize they are a minority. Knowing that, why marry unless you ensure that compatibility or your willingness to provide first?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> It's not because I'm a highly sexual person, so I don't understand...it's because I'm a highly loving and caring person, so I cannot understand denying such an important need for my partner ever.
> 
> First, I would never ever "expect" anyone to perform or meet my needs for anything in a relationship...however, anyone who wants to be in a monogamous relationship with me will have to make the choice to nurture and embrace my sexuality and to share his with me. It will always be his choice. But if I'm expected to be a happy, giving partner, then he needs to choose to meet my sexual needs just as faithfully as meeting any of my other needs for emotional connection and communication and joining me in my life in a way that is meaningful for me. Sex doesn't get some special status of being optional, it will be like ALL my other needs...and if my partner doesn't want to meet my needs, sexual or emotional, I would be understanding, but then we would need to rethink whether we have a true, loving partnership.
> 
> ...


Absolutely right. Classifying sex as optional and inferior and the need for it as dirty or weak is a huge underlying issue.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> See, I just can't accept this.
> 
> Is it uncaring that I hate Brussels Sprouts? I am of the opinion that we do not choose most or our likes and dislikes in life. Caring has nothing to do with how we feel, only with how we manage those feelings.


Hmm...let me ask you this....

What if your wife made you something very special with brussel sprouts, because that's the only thing she had to feed you, from HER garden that she wanted to be only for you? And she made the dish as special and delicious as she could FOR YOU, because she wanted to give you something of herself that she made just for you.

What would you do with those brussel sprouts? What do YOU believe would be the caring, loving way to respond to her gift of brussel sprout casserole that she wanted to please you with??

Would you push it away and say, "EEW!! Gross! I told you I hate those, don't ever make me those again!"...?

Would you run crying from the room, shaking from anxiety and disgust that she just wouldn't stop trying to feed you brussel sprouts, even though that's the only thing she had to offer you?

How would you treat the person that you loved and that you knew loved you in a caring way, in the face of having something so distasteful to you presented to you?


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> Hmm...let me ask you this....
> 
> What if your wife made you something very special with brussel sprouts, because that's the only thing she had to feed you, from HER garden that she wanted to be only for you? And she made the dish as special and delicious as she could FOR YOU, because she wanted to give you something of herself that she made just for you.
> 
> ...


Many men would refuse the brussel sprouts, pull out carrots and then demand they be eaten completely- even the stem- cause that’s what they saw online. Lol


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

DTO said:


> The problem is that even if the LD spouse truly doesn't want it, they are not dumb and realize they are a minority. Knowing that, why marry unless you ensure that compatibility or your willingness to provide first?


I didn’t notice the sex really decreasing until we had been married for many years and then it was a gradual decline down to basement levels. So when we first got married we were popping off.

Crap during the dating phase we would literally screw all night.

So I figure hey this is perfect!

It took a long time to degrade, way less time to get back.

I wouldn’t get into a relationship with someone who didn’t like having a lot of sex as it’s one of the main things I want.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> Many men would refuse the brussel sprouts, pull out carrots and then demand they be eaten completely- even the stem- cause that’s what they saw online. Lol


Lolol!!! Good one!!!!!!


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

CatholicDad said:


> Many men would refuse the brussel sprouts, pull out carrots and then demand they be eaten completely- even the stem- cause that’s what they saw online. Lol


I never refuse Brussels sprouts and sadly my wife can’t take carrot to the stem but she gives a good try, that’s all you can really ask for.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Hmm...let me ask you this....
> 
> What if your wife made you something very special with brussel sprouts, because that's the only thing she had to feed you, from HER garden that she wanted to be only for you? And she made the dish as special and delicious as she could FOR YOU, because she wanted to give you something of herself that she made just for you.
> 
> What would you do with those brussel sprouts? What do YOU believe would be the caring, loving way to respond to her gift of brussel sprout casserole that she wanted to please you with??


If this were the first time, I would take a bite. Maybe even try to put on a game face, once. But in an interesting coincidence, when my mother used to cook them (poorly), they literally activated my gag reflex. As in I thought I was going to throw up in my mouth. No one should have to suffer that as a show of love for their spouse, in my world.



> Would you push it away and say, "EEW!! Gross! I told you I hate those, don't ever make me those again!"...?


If it was the second time, yes. Why would anyone try to do something for another that they have already been told in no unclear terms is unwanted? Why would someone continue to have their feelings hurt by continually trying to change my mind about what I already know about myself? That is an extraordinarily self-centered "gift". 



> How would you treat the person that you loved and that you knew loved you in a caring way, in the face of having something so distasteful to you presented to you?


I would thank her for her love, for the sincere effort made, and in no unclear terms state to please not do it again. There are other foods we can enjoy together.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Some things in life (and marriage) you have to keep trying… eventually you find yourself loving it. It’s called “growth”.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> Some things in life (and marriage) you have to keep trying… eventually you find yourself loving it. It’s called “growth”.


Last week was my 36th anniversary, so I'm no stranger to the concept of adapting and growth. Some limitations in life you have to accept - it's called compassion.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> So if my wife said, “I don’t want to have sex with you.” My question would be, “Why not?” and then you have to listen and believe what she is saying. I found that very hard at first.


Of course. Except her answer is just "Cause I don't want to right now" Which goes along with your listening part but when you hear that same answer a few times in a row, its not really an acceptable one and no matter how hard you listen, it doesn't tell you anything.

But you know my story already.

My just overall thought in my replies are some people (my wife) are just not into sex in their marriage and the only real option is divorce. 

Which sucks.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Livvie said:


> I love lots of people I don't want to have sex with. Lots. That's normal.
> 
> I'm not married to any of them, though, because marriage is a sexual relationship.
> 
> Your wife wants the benefits of being married without having to actually participate in a sexual marriage. And by staying in the relationship, you age agreeing with her that your wife doesn’t need to want to have sex with you.


I don't disagree.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Cletus said:


> I would thank her for her love, for the sincere effort made, and in no unclear terms state to please not do it again. *There are other foods we can enjoy together.*


Except - if a spouse is repulsed by their spouses body, and repulsed by what most wound consider basic sex acts - there’s not.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> I was just wanting to hear what many others do to help put some more arrows in my quiver was all but I guess I didn't do a good enough job of explaining that, so that's on me.


Generally speaking what might be an extremely successful idea for one couple may be a complete fail for another couple. So you can't exactly borrow someone else's arrows, put them in your quiver, and expect a bullseye when you try them. For example a flaming arrow may even catch your quiver on fire. A frozen arrow may thaw/melt if you live somewhere tropical and the water will warp all your other arrows.

Having said that, if you do not feel deterred and want to look into my stock of arrows, here are a few:


Have you heard of kegels? This is where you tense up your muscles to have stronger orgasms. Most people have not heard about reverse kegels. This is where you not only relax but you take it a little further and push out (as if you are trying to pee faster) while approaching and having an orgasm. If you can do it and challenge your partner to as well, the resulting orgasm is exponentially more intense and longer lasting. Kind of like jumping off a cliff in slow motion. 
Coconut oil
Even more coconut oil
As soon as you think you have used too much coconut oil, keep going! 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

“Growth” is uncomfortable. Maybe it’s us in learning to accept our spouses limitations. But we can’t quit something after the first, second, third, fourth (etc.) try…. many things we can learn to “love” are hard won. Becoming a dad sucks for the first year (lol, and through the child’s teen years). We all have some sex act that we were squeamish about and learned to love 😉. Growth is almost always uncomfortable or even very uncomfortable.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> We all have some sex act that we were squeamish about and learned to love 😉



Really?...like what? Wait...I don't think I want to know 

Just messing with ya as there really isn't anything I can think of anything sexually that I didn't like the first time I did it.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Really?...like what? Wait...I don't think I want to know
> 
> Just messing with ya as there really isn't anything I can think of anything sexually that I didn't like the first time I did it.


A certain shower perhaps? Wouldn’t be super excited with that one if my wife was like hey honey…


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Really?...like what? Wait...I don't think I want to know
> 
> Just messing with ya as there really isn't anything I can think of anything sexually that I didn't like the first time I did it.


No doubt there's a lot of that thinking going on here - "Hey, what I like must be normal, moral, widely accepted, and liked by all, right? I mean, I do it!".

It doesn't take long listening to the Savage Lovecast, for example, to understand that the world of sex is a whole lot scarier than I ever imagined. Which sort of informs my opinion - when I hear what some rando is into in his dungeon, I don't have any trouble understanding why likes and dislikes might come into conflict for any two people.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Really?...like what? Wait...I don't think I want to know
> 
> Just messing with ya as there really isn't anything I can think of anything sexually that I didn't like the first time I did it.


Well, I disliked many first tastes- beer, whiskey, Copenhagen, cigars…not you? One acquired taste is pretty important to marriage- not brussel sprouts 😉


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

CatholicDad said:


> Well, I disliked many first tastes- beer, whiskey, Copenhagen, cigars…not you? One acquired taste is pretty important to marriage- not brussel sprouts 😉


Hey if my wife wants to do something and it doesn’t involve a third party I’m game for trying anything.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> A certain shower perhaps? Wouldn’t be super excited with that one if my wife was like hey honey…


I am sorry, but would draw the line on that. Thankfully the subject has never come up in our house.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> I am sorry, but would draw the line on that. Thankfully the subject has never come up in our house.


Not in my house either. If she really wanted to do it well then it’s time to put the big boy pants on and take it IMO.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Cletus said:


> See, I just can't accept this.
> 
> Is it uncaring that I hate Brussels Sprouts? I am of the opinion that we do not choose most or our likes and dislikes in life. Caring has nothing to do with how we feel, only with how we manage those feelings.


If you are repulsed by your partner's body and sex organs, then you should not get married to that person. If you are repulsed by all male sex organs, you should not get married to a man. You should form asexual alliances, instead (or perhaps you like same sex people).

_Pretending_ that you will be into sex when you get married (when you know you won't) in order to get someone to marry you is horrible, selfish, and makes you a massive liar.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cletus said:


> The advice usually offered, that one should dump an otherwise perfectly good spouse over sexual challenges, combined with a bias that anyone who doesn't do this is weak, is IMHO one of the great shortcomings here.


I know I'm a bit late on replying to this post, but there is much truth to this. Especially considering there are intermediate steps that can be taken.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I don't disagree things here tilt that way in a lot of cases. But remember the context; the imbalance has usually been going on for years, most have tried the obvious fixes with no improvements and the level of frustration in the M has lead said poster to a marriage problems forum.
> 
> THAT is the pool majority of sex related posters, male and female. Context is everything.


Speaking as someone with experience in this matter...

The imbalance happens because it is allowed to happen. 



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Livvie said:


> If you are repulsed by your partner's body and sex organs, then you should not get married to that person. If you are repulsed by all male sex organs, you should not get married to a man. You should form asexual alliances, instead (or perhaps you like same sex people).
> 
> _Pretending_ that you will be into sex when you get married (when you know you won't) in order to get someone to marry you is horrible, selfish, and makes you a massive liar.


I think we're getting a little cross-wise here.

I can only really talk authoritatively about my marriage, so I will. 

My wife loves my penis. It is her favorite (and only) sex toy. With it, she is multiply orgasmic as often as we care to do it. However, she also wants it to remain as far from her mouth as humanly possible - preferably expressed in astronomical units. She is not repulsed by it except in the context of it smacking into her tonsils while staring at my belly button. 

She is "into" sex, by her definition of the word. Which, coincidentally, doesn't match mine. There was no pretense before we got married - sex has always been on the table. What was not discussed, because we were young and naive, was what sex _meant_. 

In the context of this thread, we are sexually incompatible because even though we both like sex, we do not agree on a common definition of what defines a satisfactory sex life.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Speaking as someone with experience in this matter...
> 
> The imbalance happens because it is allowed to happen.
> 
> ...


this is often true.
as when a woman has a 2nd child, and suddenly turns the sex machine completely off.

IF her husband sets her right about that two weeks after....things certainly can turn around. if instead the man asks her when he can please have sex again, 3 years later....well, he deserves a sexless marriage for not lifting a finger to fix things.


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## Coloratura (Sep 28, 2021)

I have found this thread so interesting. Here is another analogy also related to food. Say you have one partner who only eats meat and potatoes. As in, quite literally. That is pretty much all the variety they want in their food. None of the food can touch or be mixed together in any way. No vegetables other than corn should ever touch the plate, and they are adamant about not even trying anything new. Say this partner is the one who is also extremely HD in the relationship.

The other partner, the (perceived) LD in the relationship, loves to try almost all manner of food. Any cuisine from any culture - there is almost nothing they don’t enjoy. Some foods are an allergen so they don’t eat those, but on the whole they will try anything new. This partner happens to be one who is expected to cook all the meals.

For 27 years, the LD partner who cooks only makes food the HD partner will enjoy and eat, exactly the way he likes it, despite her own much more varied preference for food. She does not try to force vegetables down his throat even though vegetables are her favorite. She doesn’t make the foods she likes for herself because who wants to cook two separate meals? She is extremely attentive to her husband’s dietary preferences and makes sure he has meals he will enjoy. When they go out to eat, they always go to restaurants specializing in the foods HE likes, rather than ethnic restaurants with more interesting choices.

Should I have divorced him solely because our dietary preferences are wildly different? Does it matter that I have spent 27 years making sure my husband was happy in so many ways? In handling all the child-rearing and housework and grocery shopping and bill paying and yard work while also working full time?

So why is it fair that he solely blames my (perceived) LD for his unhappiness in life and for the dissolution of our marriage, and says that is the reason he found a side piece to meet that need for him? That he loves me but was tired of being rejected by me?

I say I am perceived by him as LD when I don’t really think I am. He THINKS I am because he never really bothered to learn what turns me on, and always expected me to be turned on as if I am a switch.

I bring all that up not to hijack the thread, but to say that not all LD partners are uncaring or selfish. Many try very hard to be good partners in all aspects of the marriage but simply may need a little more help or understanding “getting there” or being more adventurous in the bedroom, and that can sometimes be difficult when they are not appreciated for all the other things they may be doing to show love to their spouse. Marriages are not all about sex. While sex is extremely important, I submit that the CARING has to come first. If I had felt that my husband cared about me outside of the bedroom more, maybe he would have learned that I am not as LD as he thinks I am. And speaking as a person with a history of sexual assault, I have come a LONG way.

(As a side note: my husband said that one reason he is not interested in me anymore, other than my LD, is because “we don’t have anything in common, even in the food we like.” You just can’t win!)


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Coloratura said:


> I say I am perceived by him as LD when I don’t really think I am. He THINKS I am because he never really bothered to learn what turns me on, and always expected me to be turned on as if I am a switch.


This is definitely a thing with multiple causes.

There’s LL4U which is “low libido for you” meaning for someone else not LL but for the current partner LL.

It sounds like you’re more in the responsive desire camp where you need a lot of preheating to get there.

Best exhibited to a HD man by suddenly grabbing his junk in a non sexual context when he doesn’t expect it. My reaction at least is to flinch. I think that’s maybe as close as you can get as a demo of where you’re coming from with how a clunky initiation feels to someone with responsive desire.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Coloratura said:


> *Marriages are not all about sex*. While sex is extremely important, I submit that the CARING has to come first. If I had felt that my husband cared about me outside of the bedroom more, maybe he would have learned that I am not as LD as he thinks I am. And speaking as a person with a history of sexual assault, I have come a LONG way.


IMO, marriage is at it's *core* a sexual relationship formalized within a contract. So saying a marriage is not all about sex seems a little "off" to me. Rather than saying sex is extremely important, I would say it is the *essential* ingredient.of a marriage. If it disappears then what is left is just a shell, two people living and maybe raising children together who used to be lovers but now pursue their own agendas. A lot of people live this way, but for the life of me I can't understand why. Life is very short, too short to spend it in misery.

I assume that the two of you had a lot of discussions about what each of you needed from the relationship before it disappeared. If he never proved to you that he cared about you, then shame on him. Usually both partners contribute their share to problems, unless one or the other is somehow flawed in their personality. In your case to use your analogy, a carnivore and a vegan attempted a union which after 27 years dissolved. He never recognized or facilitated your desires. And it seems you resented that for a long time, no doubt some of that resentment leaked out. The sad part is that the two of you muddled on so long, miserable in your condition.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> this is often true.
> as when a woman has a 2nd child, and suddenly turns the sex machine completely off.
> 
> IF her husband sets her right about that two weeks after....things certainly can turn around. if instead the man asks her when he can please have sex again, 3 years later....well, he deserves a sexless marriage for not lifting a finger to fix things.


Wouldn't the key then be to address issues head on ASAP, don't be conflict avoidant. Any woman (or man) who unilaterally turns off intimacy knows 100% that will lead to big problems. If they are doing that, it must be the opening shot in a war to the finish. The whole LD thing seems just an excuse, not a reason. It isn't as if sex is an exhausting, time consuming, unpleasant activity ( assuming the partner has some minimal abilities ) Absent physical problems, there is no excuse. And even with physical problems, there are numerous ways to "wire around" the issues and continue a sexual union.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Coloratura said:


> Does it matter that I have spent 27 years making sure my husband was happy in so many ways? In handling all the child-rearing and housework and grocery shopping and bill paying and yard work while also working full time?
> 
> ...they are not appreciated for all the other things they may be doing to show love to their spouse. Marriages are not all about sex.


These are the parts of your post that stood out to me. 

The other things don't make up for a lacking sex life. Handling these aspects of life aren't the same as having a sex life together.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Livvie said:


> These are the parts of your post that stood out to me.
> 
> The other things don't make up for a lacking sex life. Handling these aspects of life aren't the same as having a sex life together.


I think what happens is those other things become the important things at least to one of the partners (typically the LD one) and then when those things take precedence, sex gets pushed back. Then, if the other partner (HD one) mentions sex or tries to initiate, the first partner says something like "I can't believe you are worried about sex when we have *__* (enter the issue du jour) to deal with?!"

And *__* is typically something not very important.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

farsidejunky said:


> I know I'm a bit late on replying to this post, but there is much truth to this. Especially considering their intermediate steps that can be taken.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


In all fairness to this site, most of the advice to divorce isn't really immediate or even always using the word "divorce"...most times people will respond with ways an OP should stand up for themselves, and be direct and talk about the problem, and many of the men here write very specific and detailed posts to other men on how to win back respect and try to reignite attraction and passion in their wives. Which is very generous and great advice.

When a sexless partner refuses to respond or care about what their choices are doing to the OP, then what other steps can be taken? And that's when most posters will say, "Sorry, but if nothing has worked and you want a sex life, it will probably have to be with someone else".

I don't see that as a weakness of this site. I see that as a strength.


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## Coloratura (Sep 28, 2021)

Livvie said:


> These are the parts of your post that stood out to me.
> 
> The other things don't make up for a lacking sex life. Handling these aspects of life aren't the same as having a sex life together.


Yes, I realize it’s not the same thing. My point was just that marriage is about caring for each other in all ways, not just sex. And how can there be a good sex life if mutual appreciation does not appear in all aspects of a marriage?


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## Coloratura (Sep 28, 2021)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I think what happens is those other things become the important things at least to one of the partners (typically the LD one) and then when those things take precedence, sex gets pushed back. Then, if the other partner (HD one) mentions sex or tries to initiate, the first partner says something like "I can't believe you are worried about sex when we have *__* (enter the issue du jour) to deal with?!"
> 
> And *__* is typically something not very important.


That might be what happens in some cases, and that would be extremely petty. My point was that in a marriage, appreciation must be mutual in all ways, not just in one way no matter what that one way is. If I only appreciated my husband for his paycheck and for nothing else, that would be as bad as my husband only appreciating me for sex and for nothing else. 

Caring for each other should come first, and sex blossoms from that. I’m saying that while sex is essential, it needs to come from a place of caring about your spouse and showing them love, and not from a place of selfishness.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Coloratura said:


> I have found this thread so interesting. Here is another analogy also related to food. Say you have one partner who only eats meat and potatoes. As in, quite literally. That is pretty much all the variety they want in their food. None of the food can touch or be mixed together in any way. No vegetables other than corn should ever touch the plate, and they are adamant about not even trying anything new. Say this partner is the one who is also extremely HD in the relationship.
> 
> The other partner, the (perceived) LD in the relationship, loves to try almost all manner of food. Any cuisine from any culture - there is almost nothing they don’t enjoy. Some foods are an allergen so they don’t eat those, but on the whole they will try anything new. This partner happens to be one who is expected to cook all the meals.
> 
> ...


You haven't posted much that I've read about your sexual struggles with your STBX, but from the other things you've posted about him, I don't think you can take any blame for his sexual unhappiness and say it's the reason he cheated. 
He has serious entitlement and character issues, and I question whether he would have been happy with anything you did.
Sexlessness didn't cause the demise of your marriage or drive his choices.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Coloratura said:


> That might be what happens in some cases, and that would be extremely petty. My point was that in a marriage, appreciation must be mutual in all ways, not just in one way no matter what that one way is. If I only appreciated my husband for his paycheck and for nothing else, that would be as bad as my husband only appreciating me for sex and for nothing else.
> 
> Caring for each other should come first, and sex blossoms from that. I’m saying that while sex is essential, it needs to come from a place of caring about your spouse and showing them love, and not from a place of selfishness.


Well, there are many others like me who believe that a major way my partner demonstrates caring for me is by seeing me and desiring me as a sexual person and making my sexual needs his priority (like I do for him).


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Coloratura said:


> I have found this thread so interesting. Here is another analogy also related to food. Say you have one partner who only eats meat and potatoes. As in, quite literally. That is pretty much all the variety they want in their food. None of the food can touch or be mixed together in any way. No vegetables other than corn should ever touch the plate, and they are adamant about not even trying anything new. Say this partner is the one who is also extremely HD in the relationship.
> 
> The other partner, the (perceived) LD in the relationship, loves to try almost all manner of food. Any cuisine from any culture - there is almost nothing they don’t enjoy. Some foods are an allergen so they don’t eat those, but on the whole they will try anything new. This partner happens to be one who is expected to cook all the meals.
> 
> ...


Food preferences and sexual frequency/sex are so poor an analogy example using that as an example might be harmful to some reading it.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> Sorry been here long enough I don’t feel like trying to have a reasoned conversation about how both partners are the problem.


Sorry been here long enough to observe it's common for others posting what they feel is is accurate without real foundation. 

Hey, I feel I should have won the lottery by now but the lottery board doesn't support that.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Well, there are many others like me who believe that a major way my partner demonstrates caring for me is by seeing me and desiring me as a sexual person and making my sexual needs his priority (like I do for him).


Thank you for a great response. Spot on.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Coloratura said:


> Yes, I realize it’s not the same thing. My point was just that marriage is about caring for each other in all ways, not just sex. And how can there be a good sex life if mutual appreciation does not appear in all aspects of a marriage?


You’re onto something here.

Why would you want to have sex with someone you’re not attracted to? Depending on the person, the lack of care the way they need to be cared for makes their partner not attractive.

Often the advice is “go on a diet, lift weights”. That’s the physical part which is an important part but there’s also the emotional or behavior part that is overlooked by the more simple manosphere literature.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> I know I'm a bit late on replying to this post, but there is much truth to this. Especially considering their intermediate steps that can be taken.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


The perception of weakness is usually obtained by observing posters who have very serious complaints about their sex lives, making it sound like a deal breaker, and also portraying their spouse as intractable and uncaring in regards to the issue.

Given those circumstances, divorce does seem to be the go to when the OP says nothing works anyway and they do portray themselves as weak for claiming an intolerable situation and then wringing their hands about it.

I have no bones about a situation someone finds acceptable even if I find it deplorable but many of said posters just complain and act like nothing can be done or no one could do anything differently than them which several people on this forum have proven wrong.

You are one example that proves you can do something.

I don't even consider myself to be someone who can relate much or give that much input because I've always required a certain level of sexual frequency and variety, at the least, the desire and willingness from my partner.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> The perception of weakness is usually obtained by observing posters who have very serious complaints about their sex lives, making it sound like a deal breaker, and also portraying their spouse as intractable and uncaring in regards to the issue.


Yup. The matrix of options isn’t that big.

1 - Do nothing except whine and complain about it, be mad at the universe but leave things as they are; only more intolerable because the whining and complaining is annoying.

2 - Attempt to do something constructive to fix the situation. It works, yay!

3 - Attempt to do something constructive and it fails. Stay anyway but sulk and be sad about it or be late enough in life that you don’t care. Often these folks first post is looking for chemical castration or something of the sort.

4 - Try to fix it, fail, and divorce.

Of those I don’t have as much sympathy for people stuck in 1 or 3 because they’re stuck in a situation they don’t like and they’re not trying to fix it.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

[QUOTE="A18S37K14H18, post: 20439669, member: 352705
Lastly, communication issues greatly affect sexual issues in a relationship too.

I'm looking for examples and ways folks in long term relationships have overcome sexual compatibility issues in their relationships.
[/QUOTE]
We haven’t ever really had any incompatibility regarding intimacy, but maybe because we always kept it front and center from the beginning. We talked about how our sexual relationship was going as often as we talked about finances or work or the kids. We didnt let issues fester, brought them into the light and worked them. If for health or work or other reasons we couldnt be intimate with one another, we would assure our partner that tomorrow would be a “makeup” day.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Rus47 said:


> Wouldn't the key then be to address issues head on ASAP, don't be conflict avoidant. Any woman (or man) who unilaterally turns off intimacy knows 100% that will lead to big problems. If they are doing that, it must be the opening shot in a war to the finish. The whole LD thing seems just an excuse, not a reason. It isn't as if sex is an exhausting, time consuming, unpleasant activity ( assuming the partner has some minimal abilities ) Absent physical problems, there is no excuse. And even with physical problems, there are numerous ways to "wire around" the issues and continue a sexual union.


absolutely.
i can see the wife saying "hey it hurts down there, wait until the stiches come out" as she offers some other type of sex.

But if all you get is NOPE NOPE NOPE....start talking to your lawyer.

She has you by the short hairs at that point, you WANT TO BE a good father to your newborn kids, and it is very hard to even think about divorce at that point in time. But some women, apparently, take advantage of you for thinking that way. Stand tough!


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## Coloratura (Sep 28, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Food preferences and sexual frequency/sex are so poor an analogy example using that as an example might be harmful to some reading it.


Well yes, it is a poor analogy if you missed the point of the post. The point was that people should care for each other in myriads of ways, and that care deserves acknowledgement on both sides. If one person cares for another, in their way (whether that be cooking dinners the other enjoys, taking care of the children so the other can have time to themselves after work, making things nice in the home, treating them with kindness, supporting them through cancer, etc) then that would logically lead to a good sex life if the other person reciprocates that care in their own way.

Simply desiring a person in a sexual way without caring for them in other ways does not a good marriage make.

My other point was that in the end, it is then unfair for the person who feels they didn’t get enough sex in the marriage but also didn’t exhibit care for their spouse in other ways to blame the problems in a marriage on the LD person solely for that one reason.

Sex is essential to a good marriage but I don’t feel that the frequency of sex, taken out of context with the rest of a marriage, is an accurate barometer of the health of a marriage.

Before my husband decided to cheat on me, using lack of sex as his excuse, we were having sex almost every day, and often multiple times per day. We had sex in all manner of places and ways, and I was really working hard on pleasing him in that part of our marriage.

He is rewriting history now, claiming he never was satisfied. And now that we no longer have sex (this happened as a direct result of his betrayal and refusal to give up the OW) he is still blaming all of our issues on my supposed LD.

I am only saying that you have to look at the whole picture, and I wonder how many LD people are blamed for the problems in a relationship without considering the rest of it.


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## Coloratura (Sep 28, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> You haven't posted much that I've read about your sexual struggles with your STBX, but from the other things you've posted about him, I don't think you can take any blame for his sexual unhappiness and say it's the reason he cheated.
> He has serious entitlement and character issues, and I question whether he would have been happy with anything you did.
> Sexlessness didn't cause the demise of your marriage or drive his choices.


Thank you for this. I know you are right. He is the outlier here because he has what I believe is a personality disorder, and he has often been emotionally and sexually abusive to me. I know that is not the case with most people (well, I hope not!), but I still think my marriage could be used as an example of the importance of showing actual love in a relationship.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Coloratura said:


> Well yes, it is a poor analogy if you missed the point of the post. The point was that people should care for each other in myriads of ways, and that care deserves acknowledgement on both sides. If one person cares for another, in their way (whether that be cooking dinners the other enjoys, taking care of the children so the other can have time to themselves after work, making things nice in the home, treating them with kindness, supporting them through cancer, etc) then that would logically lead to a good sex life if the other person reciprocates that care in their own way.
> 
> Simply desiring a person in a sexual way without caring for them in other ways does not a good marriage make.
> 
> ...


You've missed the point totally. 

In a M with two healthy and loving adults.
WITHOUT sex being a significant part of a good M and if one partner is constantly turned down, the other positive aspects of the M are affected and the M will erode from the core out.


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## Coloratura (Sep 28, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> You've missed the point totally.
> 
> In a M with two healthy and loving adults.
> WITHOUT sex being a significant part of a good M and if one partner is constantly turned down, the other positive aspects of the M are affected and the M will erode from the core out.


Yes, I agree with this completely.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Livvie said:


> If you are repulsed by your partner's body and sex organs, then you should not get married to that person. If you are repulsed by all male sex organs, you should not get married to a man. You should form asexual alliances, instead (or perhaps you like same sex people).
> 
> _Pretending_ that you will be into sex when you get married (when you know you won't) in order to get someone to marry you is horrible, selfish, and makes you a massive liar.


Exactly right, from someone who's lived it. At that point it's not longer just a sex issue. It's a character issue as well. Someone who will use another like this is a bad person.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Rus47 said:


> IMO, marriage is at it's *core* a sexual relationship formalized within a contract. So saying a marriage is not all about sex seems a little "off" to me. Rather than saying sex is extremely important, I would say it is the *essential* ingredient.of a marriage. If it disappears then what is left is just a shell, two people living and maybe raising children together who used to be lovers but now pursue their own agendas. A lot of people live this way, but for the life of me I can't understand why. Life is very short, too short to spend it in misery.
> 
> I assume that the two of you had a lot of discussions about what each of you needed from the relationship before it disappeared. If he never proved to you that he cared about you, then shame on him. Usually both partners contribute their share to problems, unless one or the other is somehow flawed in their personality. In your case to use your analogy, a carnivore and a vegan attempted a union which after 27 years dissolved. He never recognized or facilitated your desires. And it seems you resented that for a long time, no doubt some of that resentment leaked out. The sad part is that the two of you muddled on so long, miserable in your condition.


This. I don't get people who act like if you divorce over sex then you are some kind of perv who values nothing else.

I personally have three essential requirements for a partner: sex, respect, high work ethic. All must be present so it isn't about any one of them. But the lack of any one will end the relationship unless due to physical impossibility.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Coloratura said:


> I say I am perceived by him as LD when I don’t really think I am. He THINKS I am because he never really bothered to learn what turns me on, and always expected me to be turned on as if I am a switch.


That was an interesting post! I do agree that caring is important, but it should hopefully be a form of caring that occurs as a team.

That aside, sexuality does require some degree of selfishness combined with the self confidence to stand up for what you want. If there was something you wanted sexually, you can't just expect a spouse to guess or pick up a hint. You have to be overt, spell it out, and take responsibility to just make it happen. 

Early in my marriage my wife expected me to just guess and "discover" something new that she liked. It was stressful for me because many of my ideas would fail. That stress has a tendency to lead one down the road of just sticking with meat and potatoes (as you described) of what seems to be easy and most likely to work. 

After many years of working through issues with my marriage and helping my wife feel more confident, she finally speaks up in the bedroom. What she wants is usually something simple but often rather counter intuitive to what I would think she wants. 

Back to the analogy of food and pleasing someone. A psychology book described that it is easy to cook for someone that tells you exactly what they like, and perhaps even helps you to prepare it for them. That is "team" based caring for one another. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

DTO said:


> This. I don't get people who act like if you divorce over sex then you are some kind of perv who values nothing else.
> 
> I personally have three essential requirements for a partner: sex, respect, high work ethic. All must be present so it isn't about any one of them. But the lack of any one will end the relationship unless due to physical impossibility.


Thats why if you ever do divorce over a poor sex life, you don't tell anyone (or at least not anyone you can't trust as a friend) Probably why many couples say they "just grew apart" or something like that.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm a LD partner, but only LD because both LTRs in my life wanted sex 3x a day. I just wanted sex 3-4x a week. Both I gave in and gave duty sex. First one we had fights about it and tons of drama, second one I was in love with her so I decided to live with it, she toned it down but still complained. Quite frankly I don't think there really is a fix unless you are happy to compromise on this, I told my exs repeatedly my triggers but both of them end up doing the opposite of turning me on - complaining and demanding sex. Second one did more than demand sex she demanded love-bombs or I'm not putting in enough 'effort' 🤦‍♂️

In all my years on TAM sex in marriage seems to be the #1 issue, and I haven't found a solution either than people simply compromising with duty sex.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

RandomDude said:


> In all my years on TAM sex in marriage seems to be the #1 issue, and I haven't found a solution either than people simply compromising with duty sex.


Maybe that is the issue posters (the HD people) are agitated about because they are already at the end of their rope and TAM is their last hope. Hoping (vainly) that someone somewhere has the magic solution.

Someone on here once mentioned that a 3:1 or greater difference in drive wasn't possible to compromise. So if someone wanted it 20-30 times a week, 6-10 times was the bare minimum the HD could tolerate. I would think the big issue is when the drive levels change radically from what has been the norm. That is what can be a marriage ending event.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> In all fairness to this site, most of the advice to divorce isn't really immediate or even always using the word "divorce"...most times people will respond with ways an OP should stand up for themselves, and be direct and talk about the problem, and many of the men here write very specific and detailed posts to other men on how to win back respect and try to reignite attraction and passion in their wives. Which is very generous and great advice.
> 
> When a sexless partner refuses to respond or care about what their choices are doing to the OP, then what other steps can be taken? And that's when most posters will say, "Sorry, but if nothing has worked and you want a sex life, it will probably have to be with someone else".
> 
> I don't see that as a weakness of this site. I see that as a strength.


Lower the thermostat to absolute zero. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

farsidejunky said:


> Lower the thermostat to absolute zero.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


What does that mean? You do that with your partner?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Rus47 said:


> Maybe that is the issue pi


What else can we do? I tell them I don't like routine, I don't like duty ILUs, I don't like duty kisses, I don't like duty sex. But nooo, 'it's my love language', so of course you try to accommodate, make compromises. You bring up solutions, you share with them your triggers, yet you trigger only their insecurity. You tell them to stop demanding yet they feel if they don't nag and make demands they won't get what they want. You may also end up being compared constantly, especially if you have a beautiful woman who gets loads of attention and wonders why you aren't drooling at her feet like other men and fking her brains out. Hell not just other men hitting on her but her friend's boyfriends too you are being compared, and when it comes to sex the expectation for a man is HARD AND WILLING ON DEMAND.

Hell even if you find someone with a compatible sex drive it can change at bloody anytime from people's stories so what the hell.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> In all my years on TAM sex in marriage seems to be the #1 issue, and I haven't found a solution either than people simply compromising with duty sex.


That's because sex is the #1 reason to get married or be monogamous. Neither of those exist for me (and most other people) without sex.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> That's because sex is the #1 reason to get married or be monogamous. Neither of those exist for me (and most other people) without sex.


Yeah and it seems the stars better align on this one if nothing else when people choose their partners. 

Because quite frankly from what I've experienced as well as observed there just ain't a solution for this either than someone having to give, and that someone is most likely not giving it enthusiastically but out of obligation/love/care/commitment for their partner. So it's not really a solution is it?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> What does that mean? You do that with your partner?


It is less about doing something with or to your partner, and more about prioritizing yourself over them.

For example, if I know words of affirmation are important to my partner, but she is refusing to prioritize sex in our relationship, I simply stop giving her words of affirmation.

I find reasons to be out of the house and doing things with other people than her.

I stop opening jars, squishing spiders, and all the other little things that she has taken for granted while she has simultaneously marginalized my desire for sex as unhealthy or accusing me of being a sexual addict for wanting more than one encounter in a week.

But...the motivation and intent for doing so matters. It isn't about punishing her. It's about loving myself enough to refuse to continue to engage in a lopsided relationship. So I simply disengage.

I haven't had to do this for several years. This is due to several factors, among them was me growing and becoming a better man and husband.

But part of said growth was me realizing I deserved better than what I was receiving. Once I reached that point, I realized that I was the person keeping our relationship on life support. So I simply stopped giving life support, and she had the choice to provide it or allow it to die. She chose the latter.

In this process are a couple of key phrases:

"If you want more from me, you can start by doing more for me.

"You've made it clear that meeting each other's needs is not a priority, so I am embracing that position."

Lastly, I think I should clarify the term thermostat. Essentially, the HD partner is the hotter partner, and the LD partner is the cooler one. The LD controls the thermostat, and likes it at a cooler to cold temperature. The HD is constantly trying to increase the thermostat, but is shut down by the LD. Once the HD realizes the LD is perfectly willing to be comfortable while watching their partner be uncomfortable, it is time to dramatically lower the temperature past the LD's comfort point.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Rus47 said:


> Maybe that is the issue posters (the HD people) are agitated about because they are already at the end of their rope and TAM is their last hope. Hoping (vainly) that someone somewhere has the magic solution.
> 
> Someone on here once mentioned that a 3:1 or greater difference in drive wasn't possible to compromise. *So if someone wanted it 20-30 times a week, 6-10 times was the bare minimum the HD could tolerate.* I would think the big issue is when the drive levels change radically from what has been the norm. That is what can be a marriage ending event.


Exs - 21x a week, me - 3-4x a week.
Yeah, sounds about right. Bah!!!!! 

Forget it!


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> What else can we do? I tell them I don't like routine, I don't like duty ILUs, I don't like duty kisses, I don't like duty sex. But nooo, 'it's my love language', so of course you try to accommodate, make compromises. You bring up solutions, you share with them your triggers, yet you trigger only their insecurity. You tell them to stop demanding yet they feel if they don't nag and make demands they won't get what they want. You may also end up being compared constantly, especially if you have a beautiful woman who gets loads of attention and wonders why you aren't drooling at her feet like other men and fking her brains out. Hell not just other men hitting on her but her friend's boyfriends too you are being compared, and when it comes to sex the expectation for a man is HARD AND WILLING ON DEMAND.
> 
> Hell even if you find someone with a compatible sex drive it can change at bloody anytime from people's stories so what the hell.


What your ex was demanding of you and the manner in which she did so was selfish and not sustainable and was ugly behavior on her part.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rus47 said:


> Someone on here once mentioned that a 3:1 or greater difference in drive wasn't possible to compromise. So if someone wanted it 20-30 times a week, 6-10 times was the bare minimum the HD could tolerate.


I'm not very big on absolutes, but I don't think that I'm out of line thinking that someone who wants sex 30 times a week (that's 4x a day) is pathological. There is no world outside of a fully catered desert island where that kind of frequency is sustainable or reasonable. 

I mean, if you have to have that to be happy, ok, but don't be surprised when you have to make some pretty serious compromises to get it.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

farsidejunky said:


> It is less about doing something with or to your partner, and more about prioritizing yourself over them.
> 
> For example, if I know words of affirmation are important to my partner, but she is refusing to prioritize sex in our relationship, I simply stop giving her words of affirmation.
> 
> ...


This is like "the 180" then! 

This is what I did, and all hell broke loose in my marriage. Good for you that it worked and your partner cared enough about you and your marriage to truly want to fix it!

I love how you word it - you were done giving your marriage life support, which gave your wife the choice of whether to save it.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Livvie said:


> What your ex was demanding of you and the manner in which she did so was selfish and not sustainable and was ugly behavior on her part.


Aye, but hell ex-wife was even more demanding sexually, less on the love-bombing front though. 
They shared some (many, actually) similarities but hell at least ex-wife respected me enough not to throw other men in my face and she did try harder to make it work.

Yet no solution, and all I see in this thread is - duty sex, the exact same crap I was forced to do.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> Aye, but hell ex-wife was even more demanding sexually, less on the love-bombing front though.
> They shared some (many, actually) similarities but hell at least ex-wife respected me enough not to throw other men in my face and she did try harder to make it work.
> 
> Yet no solution, and all I see in this thread is - duty sex, the exact same crap I was forced to do.


No one "forced" you to do anything. You chose to do that, because you couldn't cope with making your partners unhappy and standing up for what you wanted. Plus, I think there might be a part of you that needs to please others so you feel good about yourself...but ignoring your own needs only hurts YOU.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Coloratura said:


> Caring for each other should come first, and sex blossoms from that. I’m saying that while sex is essential, it needs to come from a place of caring about your spouse and showing them love, and not from a place of selfishness.


The problem with this is you make it sound like it goes in only one direction: you make me feel loved and cared for, and then we have sex. What's missing is that the contra-positive is also true: if we don't have sex, I'm not going to make you feel loved and cared for.

In a relationship context, yes comfort and trust need to be established. After that, it's a cycle. It can be a virtuous cycle where the caring causes sex to happen, which then causes the person who values sex to be more invested, and the caring / attention increases, and so on. But it can also be a vicious cycle where the caring is there and the sex doesn't happen anyways, the person being denied is hurt by the loss and starts to detach, then the refusing partner feels that pullback and wants it even less, etc.

The solution is that sex needs to be a priority - a consistent part of everyday life despite the noise and difficulties that always exist, not a type of reward when everything else is done or a bonus that is to be appreciated but never really earned or an expectation. The problem sometimes is (and I've experienced this a few times myself) the LD person at some point seeks to invalidate their partner's priorities. It then becomes (as noted earlier) "how can you think of sex at a time like this" if not an outright "you should take care of me even if sex isn't happening".

ETA: I don't want any relationship benefits from a person with whom I don't want to have sex. People who expect to be treated well despite a lack of sex simply blow my mind.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I'm not very big on absolutes, but I don't think that I'm out of line thinking that someone who wants sex 30 times a week (that's 4x a day) is pathological. There is no world outside of a fully catered desert island where that kind of frequency is sustainable or reasonable.
> 
> I mean, if you have to have that to be happy, ok, but don't be surprised when you have to make some pretty serious compromises to get it.


Mrs. C and I hit that pace in our first week of dating and we had to pull back quickly to avoid losing jobs, friends and pretty much everything. 30x a week takes up a lot of time!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> No one "forced" you to do anything. You chose to do that, because you couldn't cope with making your partners unhappy and standing up for what you wanted.


Same thing 



> Plus, I think there might be a part of you that needs to please others so you feel good about yourself...but ignoring your own needs only hurts YOU.


It hurts them as well. That's the problem with duty sex.

Not that I have a solution, just duty sex isn't it!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> Same thing


Lol!!!!!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> That's because sex is the #1 reason to get married or be monogamous. Neither of those exist for me (and most other people) without sex.


It's also because people aren't aware of or don't accept the concept of loving sacrifice. Recent events in my home are a perfect example:

In Januart our dog died at 12+ from a long illness (got her at 8 weeks). A few months later we adopted a rescue my daughter chose. I like animals, but a 120 lb furry Shepherd mix is not my optimum. But she was smitten and I highly value her happiness so I dove in - not just the ordinary stuff but I even go to the obedience classes and such.

Also, she likes video games on her down time. I like games too, but the types and genres really aren't my thing. I'll invest time and energy to get conversant with the games, the story lines, spend time while she plays them, etc.

I wouldn't have gotten that dog (and perhaps no dog at all) and definitely would not play those games for hours. But I participate happily and lovingly for my kid's benefit; it's not some tedious chore and I don't roll my eyes when doing it or act like I'd rather be anywhere else.

If we could do the same with our partner's needs - accept that sex of a certain type and frequency is as valid as our wants and needs, rather than trying to minimize it - and provide accordingly, most of these problems would dry up.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Mrs. C and I hit that pace in our first week of dating and we had to pull back quickly to avoid losing jobs, friends and pretty much everything. 30x a week takes up a lot of time!


Yeah, I managed that pace for a short time once in my life too. Once things start falling off of a man, you slow down, hopefully before that fridge is empty and the mortgage overdue.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> Mrs. C and I hit that pace in our first week of dating and we had to pull back quickly to avoid losing jobs, friends and pretty much everything. 30x a week takes up a lot of time!


Not to mention production doesn't always meet demand. For me it took tuna cans...

F... that reminds me when I told my ex the story about ex-wife's sex drive, you know, like hoping she would go "ok, I'd better not drain him out too". 
Instead she asks me how ex-wife managed to get me to do it and actually tries it! 🤦‍♂️!!!!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DTO said:


> It's also because people aren't aware of or don't accept the concept of loving sacrifice. Recent events in my home are a perfect example:
> 
> Earlier this year our dog died at nearly 13 from a long illness (we got her at 8 weeks). A few months later we welcomed a rescue into our home of my daughter's choosing. I like animals, but a 120 lb furry Shepherd mix is not what I would have chosen. But she was smitten and I highly value her happiness so I dove in - not just the ordinary stuff but I even go to the obedience classes and such.
> 
> ...


Absolutely right.

And, I want to also say that I cannot understand finding sex SO unpleasant -- how is laying naked with your partner and touching them and being intimate with them to make them feel good such a sacrifice?? 
How can it ever be considered a begrudging chore?


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> Absolutely right.
> 
> And, I want to also say that I cannot understand finding sex SO unpleasant -- how is laying naked with your partner and touching them and being intimate with them to make them feel good such a sacrifice??
> How can it ever be considered a begrudging chore?


At the very least, cuddle time should not be burdensome. How can somebody cuddle with a pet for hours at a time, but not want touch their partners at all?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> Absolutely right.
> 
> And, I want to also say that I cannot understand finding sex SO unpleasant -- *how is laying naked with your partner and touching them and being intimate with them to make them feel good such a sacrifice??*
> How can it ever be considered a begrudging chore?


Hey that's cuddles. I'm talking about the pounding, and I assume everyone else is right?

Pounding takes more -> arousal / mood / energy / available ammunition / etc etc

Cuddles needs none of those


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> Absolutely right.
> 
> And, I want to also say that I cannot understand finding sex SO unpleasant -- how is laying naked with your partner and touching them and being intimate with them to make them feel good such a sacrifice??
> How can it ever be considered a begrudging chore?


The unfortunate answer often is that people choose partners for reasons other than love:

Loneliness
Wanting a family
Provision / Finances
Escaping a bad home life.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

RandomDude said:


> I'm talking about the pounding, and I assume everyone else is right?
> 
> Pounding takes more -> arousal / mood / energy / available ammunition / etc etc


Valid point. You were badly matched with two (?) partners. And even if you had been well matched, as you mentioned in a previous post, that change at any time. So as you concluded, sometimes (maybe most times) there is no solution satisfying to both parties. Both the LD and the HD partner end up being unhappy.

I will say that the pounding can be provided by either party. The wife has in the past pounded me quite readily, all I did was lay back and watch the (very enjoyable) show. But, our drive difference ( we have swapped who was the HD several times during our marriage ) never exceeded 3:1 for long.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Rus47 said:


> Valid point. You were badly matched with two (?) partners. And even if you had been well matched, as you mentioned in a previous post, that change at any time. So as you concluded, sometimes (maybe most times) there is no solution satisfying to both parties. Both the LD and the HD partner end up being unhappy.
> 
> I will say that the pounding can be provided by either party. The wife has in the past pounded me quite readily, all I did was lay back and watch the (very enjoyable) show. But, our drive difference ( we have swapped who was the HD several times during our marriage ) never exceeded 3:1 for long.


Aye!

Also the ratio is one thing yes, but even with the drives matching, the initiation of it, the expectations, all of such contribute. 

When you are doing it as to not have another fight, it's not the same as getting turned on enough to go wild with them, unless of course you get turned on by someone complaining and demanding sex.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

Love all the discussion.

Thank you to everyone.

Communication is huge too of course.

Many say they didn't realize that it died off so slowly, the sex, in their relationship and we know that happens but me thinks folks know it's happening and they don't work or communicate about it enough.

Partners need to do regular checkups with each other and not just about sex, but about many different issues in their lives together.

After like a year into their relationship they should talk with each other outside of the bedroom and ask each other what they like about sex, what they don't like about sex. They should ask each other what they want done that isn't being done. They should talk about their fantasies with each other.

With some partners, we talk about what we like and want to do regularly with sex. That's one category.

We also talk about things we like to do occasionally, but not each and every time during sex. That's a second category.

Finally, our third category is things that are hard no's for each us so we both know and communicate about things we don't ever want to do.

Now, all of us change over the years and decades so when we have this talk about a year later, we revisit all the categories and even for myself, I've had some things come off of my hard no list as the decades have gone by.

We learn more about ourselves as the years and decades go by, we become different and hopefully better people.

Things change, all the time so what we do in the bedroom in say 2005 shouldn't be what we do together in the bedroom in 2022.

There are many things I would have never have done when I was much younger (I'm in my 50's now) that I do now.

Role playing was off-putting to me when I was younger. I was kind of a prude for a long time honestly. It took me a long time to be comfortable spreading my wings sexually and I never got there with my first husband, not even close.

I love role playing now though.

Much of what's been discussed seems to be folks who are with partners who aren't right for them or each other and I don't just mean sexually, but in other ways.

I guess I assumed (and that's bad of course) that both partners cared for each other and were wanting to work on and improve things in their sex life.

If they aren't, one really needs to revisit whether they're with the right long term partner.

Not everyone out there can be a good long term romantic partner for us. I can't be the right long term romantic partner for many men, I know that.

It's about compatibility. It's about communication. It's about caring. It's about compromise. In and out of the bedroom.

One thing my 1st husband I did when we were young, in our early 20's was to compromise. He worked 2nd shift and he'd get off at 12:30 a.m. and I taught school. Once a week we had sex at like 1 or 1:30 a.m. when he got home. He'd wake me up.

Once a week we'd have sex in the morning before I left to go teach, I'd wake him up.

We went two years that way, working on different shifts. Many times we'd pass each other in our cars, me coming home and him leaving for work.

Our sex life would have dried up to little to nothing if we didn't compromise in some way, so we both took steps to meet each other in the middle so to speak.

Sadly, he and I weren't able to do much else with our sex life and it ended up crumbling, but I've done better since then with my current partner and I'm always trying to learn, read new things and hear from others about ways to keep on improving as I sure as heck don't know it all.

Thank you all and take care.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I believe calling people low drive just because you have a higher drive than they do is inaccurate. They were very well may be normal drive according to different research over the years. Here is just the first one I came to.









How often do the happiest couples have sex? (It's less than you think)


Once a week is "just right" for sexual happiness, according to a study. But there’s no magic formula.




www.nbcnews.com





"That said, a 2017 study that appeared in the Archives of Sexual Behavior found that the average adult currently enjoys sex 54 times a year, which equates to about once a week. This is less sex, by about nine per year, compared to a similar study done in the 1990s. Interestingly, though, another study published in Social Psychological and Personality Science — which surveyed over 30,000 Americans over 40 years for three different projects — discovered that a once weekly frequency was the Goldilocks standard for happiness. Couples who had sex more than once a week didn’t report being any happier, and those who had sex less than once a week reported feeling less fulfilled."


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Have you ever had to overcome disgust or extreme anxiety over a sexual act for your husband? If so, did that act ever become truly enjoyable for you?


*Abridged Version*

My wife who was a virgin until almost 26 years old, had a parade of many sexual hangups including, nudity and doing fellatio, that for some years at least probably exceeded your wife. Yet she overcame those hangups, to enjoy what she once feared, or thought was disgusting or was anxious about.

In part as a consequence of being with me. Plus also of being willing to try things, when faced with an expectation to give things a go.

She has also told me that she is convinced she would be in a sexless marriage or would not give blowjobs or do much of anything sexually at all, if she instead ended up being with any men like the male posters on here whose sex lives are absent or limited. Since she would have always felt safe to have remained in her comfort zone of avoiding sexual practices, since they would have settled for exactly that. Which is sad since she would have missed out on enjoying a tremendously rich and pleasurable sex life as a consequence.

...


*Long Version*

My wife was a very late starter to sharing sex with people.

As told by her it wasn't until her father died when she was a few months shy of turning 26. That she decided "**** it", since I'm not finding men I want to marry she will stop "saving herself for marriage". Which she had originally been doing for religious reasons. Although this "**** it" attitude was also at the end of finding that she was no longer a Catholic/Christian, and doubted that any god was a real thing at all.

Yet she certainly had lots of sexual hangups to unpack, including having been called a prostitute by her father (while she was still a virgin), because she moved out of home to be closer to university a couple of years earlier, since doing almost 4 hours a day of commuting wasn't her cup of tea. Plus the first time she ever went on a date, her family wanted her married off, immediately, yet she didn't want to marry that guy. So she was also called a troia by her father, in that instance as well.

She had also never had a boyfriend until after she was 18. And until she was nearer to 26 hadn't done more than hold hands, kiss some guys and let a couple briefly touch her breasts over her clothes.

Funnily enough despite not doing much of anything, some of the guys she dated to her surprise wanted to marry her, yet she didn't feel the same way in return. In fact one of the things that turned her off those other men, was they were so "nice" and accommodating of her resistance to anything but holding hands, some kissing and some infrequent hugging. They also fawned over her, put her on a pedestal, acquiesced to her wants at their expense and the like. Unfortunately or perhaps fortunately for those men and her, she couldn't help but feel they were weak for yielding to her in every way, plus she found that approach far from challenging or exciting and grew bored by them and would then dump them as a consequence.

Then as she neared 26 the death of her father, brought relief from one active source of shame for her. So when an older man (12 years her senior and divorced) from her previous workplace charmed her and expressed his desire for her, she was happily up for it. Thinking she wasn't getting any younger and was done waiting for sex any longer.

Anyhow one of her hangups was fellatio, which in my experience is an extremely common sex act. Now she knew that men liked it. Yet she didn't want to do it at all (not that she knew if she would like it or not in practice), she was also very anxious about it and she thought the idea of it was gross as well.. So this older man who was her first sexual partner, was very accommodating of her fear and reluctance.

Then after she had expressed to him, her inexperience and fear of doing that, he reassured her that there was no pressure at all that he only wanted her to do it if she wanted to, and he would wait for her to be ready. To her she relates that his accommodation made her feel free to firmly stay in her comfort zone, to the point that she had decided she would never put his penis in her mouth. Since she felt that given his approach, receiving oral sex wasn't that important to him at all. So combined with her fear and reluctance towards doing it, and his acceptance she felt happy to not go there at all.

Then following meeting me, combined with becoming frustrated by the other mans inability to bring her to orgasm. She asked me out on a date, with the hopes of having another short term sexual relationship to hopefully experience better sex.

Which saw her express to me in our very very early days (perhaps after the first or second time we had shared sex together) while we were waiting for a ferry, that she had never done a blowjob before, had never had a penis touch her lips. She also told me how reluctant she was and how she didn't like the idea of it and was scared of doing it, she thought she would be bad at it, and wasn't keen to try, since she thought it would be gross etc.

In response, first of all I was surprised. considering I just presumed she wasn't as inexperienced as she was. Some of which she didn't share with me until years later. Simply because fellatio was just the norm with everyone I had ever been with, except for one woman. who I dumped immediately after that one time we shared sex. Since sharing sex with an attractive divorced woman who was older than me, yet required that we do it in the dark, with the sex being very limited was evidently not someone who would make a great sexual partner.

Anyway back to my response to my now wife, after the "really?, no really?" was over with, I told her something along the lines of "don't worry about it, because you're going to get lots of practice". Since I had this presumption that's what people did in sexual relationships, so I figured she would be fine with a bit of practice and she would do it plenty. And it was my response and approach to that, which made all the difference for my wife.

Of which she relates (and it was years later that she shared this) that she then felt reassured by my expectation and even encouraged by it, that she then felt free to try doing it and it was okay if she wasn't experienced. She also liked that I told her she was going to get lots of practice. She also found it very exciting, that I had sexual wants and expectations of her. Likewise she also found it refreshing that I wasn't like all of the other men from her past, in that I didn't fawn over her, put her on a pedestal and acquiesce to her whims at my expense. So for her she finally found someone who challenged her, who excited her, who wanted her all sorts of ways sexually, yet would readily and easily dump her if I found her wanting, all of which she liked.

So she then started giving me oral sex, and became really good at it, with it still being an extremely frequent part of our rich and varied sex life.

That said I certainly didn't and wouldn't have nagged her about it, begged for it, nor pleaded for it at all. She was under no compulsion whatsoever to take my penis in her mouth. In fact I didn't talk about it hardly ever at all, except for occasionally in the moment I would tell her what I wanted. Yet it was still all on her, to do as she pleased. then if such things weren't for her, then I wouldn't have been for her as a sexual partner either. Yet that wouldn't have meant she was a terrible person or wrong, or a dud for not wanting to do it. Although I would have certainly let her go, since I have no interest in being with anyone who isn't sexually compatible with me or is doing things they really don't want to do.

Yet given some exposure and plenty of practice at doing fellatio, it turns out my wife enjoys giving me head. It turns her on, gets her excited, makes her feel like a wanton sexual animal, while making her want to be ****ed as well.

...


Then on the non-vanilla end there's golden showers, that certainly wasn't my wife's thing in the first place either, when I told her I wanted to pee on her and pee in her mouth etc. And I would have accepted her not wanting to do that, yet she thought about it, read up on it and told me she would give it a go. At first she had to overcome some anxiousness over it and disgust at the idea, yet on doing it she found it was okay and she didn't actually mind doing it at all. It was the idea of it that was icky to her, yet in practice it was all perfectly fine. So given plenty of practice, it has also become something that she happily enjoys doing.

One thing for sure I certainly appreciated my wife's reluctance, which is why it wasn't a make or break item for me. Since my own first experiences of it, were with my ex-wife when we were both young. So when I was 18 she straddled me one day at a beach while I was sunning myself and started pissing on me. She was all excited and wanted to know how it felt, did I like it on and on etc. My first reaction was along the lines of "what the **** is wrong with you???!!!". Yet given a bit of time, and a desire to give her a dose of her own medicine and show her what it was like, I then started pissing on her at another time. Which then led to my getting over it. Then over time, it becoming something we shared occasionally as a broader sexual activity together.

...

Anal sex was another hangup for my wife as well, yet like doing felatio and some other things, she overcame her initial desire not to go there. To the point that receiving anal sex is one of her favourite sexual activities

...


Also when she and I started dating, she had always slept with pyjamas on, yet gave it up on my wanting her to sleep naked all the time, which has now been her default state (unless it's really cold) since our early days of dating. I mean seriously, she even had hangups about sleeping naked even on her own.

So my wife went from being a woman, who at almost 26; had never had a penis in her mouth and didn't want to try it, had barely had sex and was very recently a virgin, who wouldn't sleep naked, wouldn't masturbate, wouldn't look at pornography and a myriad of other things that I can't think of right now. To who she is now at 51 a very sexual woman, with a rich sexual appetite, who enjoys sex in a smorgasbord of vanilla and non-vanilla ways.

To the point that she now poses for nude paintings, goes to nude beaches sans any clothing, sleeps naked, poses for nude photos, flashes me while we're out and about. Plus with me, shares pictures of herself being naked and sharing sex with me on a Fetish website. She does anilingus on me as part of my blowjob experience, takes facials, swallows, holds it in her mouth to show off, drools it onto her tits on request and otherwise after I let go in her mouth on and on etc along with doing so many other things as well.

And that transformation, didn't happen through passive acquiescence of what was the status quo, or as a consequence of nagging, pleading, force or coercion. Yet that transformation, which began from our early days of being together wasn't an accident either. It required me to have expectations that I would have walked on, had they not been met. Combined with my wife wanting more and more of who and what I was, plus her willingness to give things a go inspired by someone who wouldn't settle for less, and her desire to meet my wants in order to be with me.

...


Oh and getting back to fellatio, for a time when I was in my teens, I found it extremely difficult to ejaculate in a woman's mouth. Mostly because I thought they couldn't possibly want me to, and was convinced no woman would really be okay with it. Yet with practice and a helping of some reassurance along the way, I began to accept that it was certainly okay for some women and was even welcomed as well. So I learned to overcome my anxiousness, and a feeling that I was doing some harm with some shame, by exposure to it being okay and welcome.

Of which back to my wife, one other important thing to her. She has said that she felt that, my not being apologetic over my desires, and my directness and unashamed confidence. Afforded her a safe space to explore her sexuality without feeling shame for her sexual desires and to feel confident in her sexuality as well.

...


All of that said my wife enthusiastically enjoys the sex life she shares with me, in a rich variety of ways. In considerable part because I wasn't inclined to settle for less sexually. And that doesn't mean she doesn't say no at all, which is something we both easily say to each other when we don't feel like sharing sex or don't want to do something.

Also from reading TAM on and off over many years, my wife is convinced that she would have ended up being a woman who would have continued to steadfastly refuse almost all sexual practices. Or worse would have eventually become a woman who would have just turned the sex tap off altogether, if she ended up with a man who is like many of the men on TAM who settled for less sexually. So given her experience she does wonder if a lot of the men on TAM, who aren't getting much variety or anything at all, are their own worst enemies when it comes to not getting to enjoy rich sex lives with their nominal sexual partners?

...

Also Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, Cletus. I'm now part way through a few weeks of holidays right now and am enjoying myself. So I hope you, your wife and family are having a good Christmas and New Years season as well.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> which surveyed over 30,000 Americans over 40 years for three different projects — discovered that a once weekly frequency was the Goldilocks standard for happiness.


Wow you guys must have a lot of awesome TV to watch.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Cletus said:


> I'm not very big on absolutes, but I don't think that I'm out of line thinking that someone who wants sex 30 times a week (that's 4x a day) is pathological. There is no world outside of a fully catered desert island where that kind of frequency is sustainable or reasonable.
> 
> I mean, if you have to have that to be happy, ok, but don't be surprised when you have to make some pretty serious compromises to get it.


BTW the 3:1 figure is something I arrived at. If you spend time reading r/deadbedrooms you can see all levels of HD folks there including 30x a week folks but it is an example. It could be the HD wants 4x/month and the LD 1x, eventually this may cause an issue from what I observe.

I have almost 2 years of data from myself and I can tell you the 3:1 figure holds for me and a lot of other examples I looked at on Reddit.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> Hey that's cuddles. I'm talking about the pounding, and I assume everyone else is right?
> 
> Pounding takes more -> arousal / mood / energy / available ammunition / etc etc
> 
> Cuddles needs none of those


I didn't really mean platonic cuddling...I was talking about intimate sexual touching and contact, that would hopefully lead to "pounding" (but doesn't have to).


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DTO said:


> The unfortunate answer often is that people choose partners for reasons other than love:
> 
> Loneliness
> Wanting a family
> ...


I guess so...but I don't understand not loving and desiring a man who provided the things I wanted and needed, who was being a true partner to me.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Personal said:


> So given her experience she does wonder if a lot of the men on TAM who aren't getting much variety or anything at all, are their own worst enemies when it comes to not getting to enjoy rich sex lives with their nominal sexual partners?


We usually get more of whatever we tolerate and enable. We are also creatures of our own upbringing and life's experience. You were evidently blessed in both respects.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Personal said:


> *Abridged Version*
> 
> My wife who was a virgin until almost 26 years old, had a parade of many sexual hangups including, nudity and doing fellatio, that for some years at least probably exceeded your wife. Yet she overcame those hangups, to enjoy what she once feared, or thought was disgusting or was anxious about.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the abridged version...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> Thanks for the abridged version...


Lol!!! But I always love his Long Versions...he's definitely one of the most interesting, open people I've ever known!!!


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Lol!!! But I always love his Long Versions...he's definitely one of the most interesting, open people I've ever known!!!


I like when he gets to the parts about what they share together. Very 🌶


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Personal said:


> Also from reading TAM on and off over many years, my wife is convinced that she would have ended up being a woman who would have continued to steadfastly refuse almost all sexual practices. Or worse would have eventually become a woman who would have just turned the sex tap off altogether, if she ended up with a man who is like many of the men on TAM who settled for less sexually. So given her experience she does wonder if a lot of the men on TAM, who aren't getting much variety or anything at all, are their own worst enemies when it comes to not getting to enjoy rich sex lives with their nominal sexual partners?
> 
> ...
> 
> Also Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, Cletus. I'm now part way through a few weeks of holidays right now and am enjoying myself. So I hope you, your wife and family are having a good Christmas and New Years season as well.


Thanks, Personal, the same to you and yours.

All I can say is that your wife is not my wife, and that your approach would have had me divorced or in a completely sexless marriage by now. But I am glad it worked for you.


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## gr8ful1 (Dec 3, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> discovered that a once weekly frequency was the Goldilocks standard for happiness


Speaking for myself, I would be *very* unhappy with 1/week.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> I guess so...but I don't understand not loving and desiring a man who provided the things I wanted and needed, who was being a true partner to me.


Depends on how you define “desire.” I agree with you and having a “I want for nothing so my partner doesn’t either” mindset means both are happy. That sounds like a true partnership.

But loving and desiring someone because they provided or did something feels transactional. It seems like desire based on what they offer not who they are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

aaarghdub said:


> Depends on how you define “desire.” I agree with you and having a “I want for nothing so my partner doesn’t either” mindset means both are happy. That sounds like a true partnership.
> 
> But loving and desiring someone because they provided or did something feels transactional. It seems like desire based on what they offer not who they are.
> 
> ...


Not for ME...because being with someone who I can depend on and who shows me his love through his ACTIONS is how I feel loved. So it shows me the kind of man he is, and that's who I feel in love with and strong desire for.

It's not like, "he bought me a huge house, so now I love him"....it's, "he cares about me, he wants to do things for me, he wants to share my life, I can depend on him, I can trust him"...so my heart opens up and that's the key to my continued desire and love.

It's not the size of the gesture....it's the INTENT. And if his intent is to love me and care for me...I am HOOKED!!!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Aye!
> 
> Also the ratio is one thing yes, but even with the drives matching, the initiation of it, the expectations, all of such contribute.
> 
> When you are doing it as to not have another fight, it's not the same as getting turned on enough to go wild with them, unless of course you get turned on by someone complaining and demanding sex.


Good grief! I empathize with where you're coming from but I can nail it down and lay pipe at the drop of a hat.

I restrain myself a bit for my partner and I guess that's where the real rub is. It appears your partners didn't give you the same consideration I give mine.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> I guess so...but I don't understand not loving and desiring a man who provided the things I wanted and needed, who was being a *true partner to me*.


Do these issues result from resentment built over months and years? On these forums, constantly read of (mostly) women and some men describing behavior by their "partner" that builds resentment. Sometimes major issues, sometimes a series of relatively small ones. The offended one decides "i will show *YOU *who is in control and it ain;t you!' They attack in a way that most distresses the offender. If the offender really enjoys sex, well that is an easy pressure point, because likely the offended really doesn't care to be intimate with the one they are p!st at and are "turned off" at the idea of being intimate with them anyway. And, there are always excuses that can be used. "It was a hard day at work. The kids were lil hellions today. I'm tired. I have a headache, etc etc" Maybe a lot of the "drive" differences are actually 'passive' resistance.

A 'solution' would be to have it out once and for all, but unfortunately people are usually conflict avoidant, so the issues continue to pile up and become more severe until one or the other decides to go outside the marriage for satisfaction and/or revenge.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Personal said:


> *Abridged Version*
> 
> My wife who was a virgin until almost 26 years old, had a parade of many sexual hangups including, nudity and doing fellatio, that for some years at least probably exceeded your wife. Yet she overcame those hangups, to enjoy what she once feared, or thought was disgusting or was anxious about.
> 
> ...


I must admit to reading the abridged version and I can't agree enough with your wife's insight.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> I didn't really mean platonic cuddling...I was talking about intimate sexual touching and contact, that would hopefully lead to "pounding" (but doesn't have to).


We certainly live in a fallen world where this woman has not been appreciated by her men!


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

DTO said:


> The unfortunate answer often is that people choose partners for reasons other than love:
> 
> Loneliness
> Wanting a family
> ...


You get way more use out of the above things than sex. If you had sex 15 min/week that’s 14 hours a year out of 5,840 waking hours. Look at what your exchanging for 14 hours:

Time spent not being alone but working full time: 3600 (72 waking hours x 50 working weeks)

Time spent with family as SAHM - 4,380 (12 hrs x 365)

Provision and finances - spouse earns $100,000… $100,000/year plus benefits. If you spent 60 minutes using your spouses insurance twice a month that’s 24 hrs vs 14.

Bad home life - 5,840 (16 x 365)

Now imagine 1x month (3 hours). Three hours a year vs the hours above!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I believe calling people low drive just because you have a higher drive than they do is inaccurate. They were very well may be normal drive according to different research over the years. Here is just the first one I came to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow! Once a week is barely maintenance.

Mrs. C is up for once a day, sometimes two, at age 61 and I'm still good for three to five a day if we have the time at 50.

I think health standards are slipping along with testosterone in western males.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> I didn't really mean platonic cuddling...I was talking about intimate sexual touching and contact, that would hopefully lead to "pounding" (but doesn't have to).


Don't have to? Since when? 

Intimate sexual touching means their gonna get turned on and if I don't finish what I started that would be leaving them hanging (and hell to pay)
I was very careful as a result not to start something I ain't in the mood to finish.

And you know what's the irony of it? It turns me on too to tease and play but arousal for me takes time to simmer but nooo, they have no time for that, sexual tension isn't something everyone can handle it seems. Bah!



ConanHub said:


> Good grief! I empathize with where you're coming from but I can nail it down and lay pipe at the drop of a hat.
> 
> I restrain myself a bit for my partner and I guess that's where the real rub is. *It appears your partners didn't give you the same consideration I give mine.*


Of course not, I'm a dude! 

First one even made me do it during her time of the moment for cramp relief. At least that's a mercy recent one gave me, didn't spare me the damn mood swings though, at least period food and snacks still worked. Second one did give me a lot more consideration than first one, but it was never enough for her.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> Wow! Once a week is barely maintenance.
> 
> Mrs. C is up for once a day, sometimes two, at age 61 and I'm still good for three to five a day if we have the time at 50.
> 
> I think health standards are slipping along with testosterone in western males.


I mean I've watched statistics on this over the decades and it's always been about once a week being the norm. That certainly doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. Obviously there are lots of exceptions but that's always been the average and this article says that that's the happy medium. My point is that everyone's calling these women low drive when in fact they're probably normal.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I mean I've watched statistics on this over the decades and it's always been about once a week being the norm. That certainly doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. Obviously there are lots of exceptions but that's always been the average and this article says that that's the happy medium. My point is that everyone's calling these women low drive when in fact they're probably normal.


Telling a HD person what is normal ain't going to level out their sex drive 

It is futile, options remain to ultimately perform or step aside.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I mean I've watched statistics on this over the decades and it's always been about once a week being the norm. That certainly doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. Obviously there are lots of exceptions but that's always been the average and this article says that that's the happy medium. My point is that everyone's calling these women low drive when in fact they're probably normal.


What I've read alot of the time is that LD is for the partner who wants it less than the HD, who wants it more. 
I don't always read it as a description of them being lower than average drive...just low drive from their partner's perspective.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> Telling a HD person what is normal ain't going to level out their sex drive
> 
> It is futile, options remain to ultimately perform or step aside.


And telling a LD partner that your needs aren't being met certainly doesn't create any positive change either.

The only option for the HD is to feel frustrated and unwanted, or leave.

I wonder, would you have been willing to allow your partners to have sex with other people to relieve you of that burden, and meet their sexual needs, as long as it didn't disrupt their love for you?
I'm not saying that's the right way to handle it, but I'm curious about what your answer is...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I mean I've watched statistics on this over the decades and it's always been about once a week being the norm. That certainly doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. Obviously there are lots of exceptions but that's always been the average and this article says that that's the happy medium. My point is that everyone's calling these women low drive when in fact they're probably normal.


Hey. Don't be sexist.😉 The "norm" of once a week is probably being maintained by men as well as women who are adding to those statistics.🙂

I've always been an advocate for better health and I am convinced health has been slipping for a very long time which includes sexuality.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I mean I've watched statistics on this over the decades and it's always been about once a week being the norm. That certainly doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. Obviously there are lots of exceptions but that's always been the average and this article says that that's the happy medium. My point is that everyone's calling these women low drive when in fact they're probably normal.


Do you think once a week is the norm, really? Not being a smart ass, an honest question.

I'm wondering why three times a week absolute minimum for us is normal and at times not just left as the last act in a long day. But at times where are all still refreshed and enable to enjoy.

Four is typical but with family and recent holidays last week was three. I'm now on vacation and the next four days we'll make up some differences.

I caution Hs who's Ws tend to schedule family activities during the times normal rondevue take place, repetitively, need to consider the W may be scheduling so in avoidance of sex. Which a common spouse tactic to really leave no choice for the H until he's had enough and calls her out.

The degree of her defensiveness reveals truth.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> And telling a LD partner that your needs aren't being met certainly doesn't create any positive change either.
> 
> The only option for the HD is to feel frustrated and unwanted, or leave.
> 
> ...


Depends if I'm in love with them or not. If not, I want in on the groupie action! As long as honesty is there I don't see it as cheating.
But ex-wife told me she's not a ***** to pass around to my mates, so yeah didn't go there. Kinda ironic, considering her history...

If I was in love? Like recent ex, with all the emotional stuff? FK no!
So best to have it match from the get go I'd say... but it's something you may never know until later, me and ex waited 8 months before intercourse as she was a virgin.

You can imagine the WTF when I realised her sex drive was as HD as ex-wife's. I won hell's lottery - TWICE! 🤦‍♂️


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> I guess so...but I don't understand not loving and desiring a man who provided the things I wanted and needed, who was being a true partner to me.


It's simply because nothing is a substitute for those romantic feelings - that "chemistry". I think it's possible that in the beginning the newness and having someone who pays attention to you helps, but over time the difficulties that motivated you to seek that provider / partner fade to the background, and your just left with a person you simply weren't into.

I dated a lady several years ago who at first had a lot going for her: attractive, good personality, smart, good job / house / car. And she was totally into me. But she had issues / hangups that killed the attraction I had fairly soon. From that point, there was no amount of attention or provision that would have made her an appealing long-term partner. The disclaimer is I do well for myself and don't look to anybody help meet my material or emotional needs, so it's not the same as those possible reasons I listed earlier. However, without that baseline physical attraction / chemistry present up front, there's simply nothing to build upon to last over time.

I believe you can work on getting that attraction back that was present in the beginning but lost over time for a variety of reasons. But when that spark isn't there in the beginning you're in a relationship of convenience / for personal benefit. IMO, your perceived benefit decreases over time and these issues tend to worsen.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> What I've read alot of the time is that LD is for the partner who wants it less than the HD, who wants it more.
> I don't always read it as a description of them being lower than average drive...just low drive from their partner's perspective.


But how I usually see it used on here often infers there's something wrong with that partner, that they are the one with the problem.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Do you think once a week is the norm, really? Not being a smart ass, an honest question.
> 
> I'm wondering why three times a week absolute minimum for us is normal and at times not just left as the last act in a long day. But at times where are all still refreshed and enable to enjoy.
> 
> ...


I didn't do the statistics but I read this
same outcome from studies done over many decades now. I think mostly what we see on here are the people with an imbalance so we see the extremes.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> But how I usually see it used on here often infers there's something wrong with that partner, that they are the one with the problem.


True. I guess that's because the person who isn't getting what they want is frustrated and automatically paints the other person as the problem. 

What I've seen happen that is always interesting to me is that when a relationship ends (not always because of sex), the people will find new partners and then have the reverse problem - the LD will suddenly be with someone who's drive is lower, and the HD will be with someone who's drive is higher!


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> True. I guess that's because the person who isn't getting what they want is frustrated and automatically paints the other person as the problem.
> 
> What I've seen happen that is always interesting to me is that when a relationship ends (not always because of sex), the people will find new partners and then have the reverse problem - the LD will suddenly be with someone who's drive is lower, and the HD will be with someone who's drive is higher!


That would be really ironic, wouldn't it? I wonder once the shoe is on the other foot if there's a greater understanding in general.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DTO said:


> It's simply because nothing is a substitute for those romantic feelings - that "chemistry". I think it's possible that in the beginning the newness and having someone who pays attention to you helps, but over time the difficulties that motivated you to seek that provider / partner fade to the background, and your just left with a person you simply weren't into.
> 
> I dated a lady several years ago who at first had a lot going for her: attractive, good personality, smart, good job / house / car. And she was totally into me. But she had issues / hangups that killed the attraction I had fairly soon. From that point, there was no amount of attention or provision that would have made her an appealing long-term partner. The disclaimer is I do well for myself and don't look to anybody help meet my material or emotional needs, so it's not the same as those possible reasons I listed earlier. However, without that baseline physical attraction / chemistry present up front, there's simply nothing to build upon to last over time.
> 
> I believe you can work on getting that attraction back that was present in the beginning but lost over time for a variety of reasons. But when that spark isn't there in the beginning you're in a relationship of convenience / for personal benefit. IMO, your perceived benefit decreases over time and these issues tend to worsen.


I believe you are right. I think that for me, "chemistry" comes from a different place than just a mythical feeling. There has to be some type of action behind it. And I know this because I was passionately in love and desiring both of my partners based on how they treated me and what their actions showed me about their feelings for me.

I felt respect and desire for them based on who they were as men (and I lost it for the same reasons), based on how they made me feel. My love and desire have always been fueled by predictability and dependability, because I see that as a strength in men (and people), and strong men attract me and are very sexy to me. So the longer I was with the men I loved and the more they showed me I could trust them, the more I appreciated and desired them.

I didn't need money or stuff, I needed to feel wanted and safe. And once they took that away, my love and desire went away as well.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> That would be really ironic, wouldn't it? I wonder once the shoe is on the other foot if there's a greater understanding in general.


I would like to think so, but I haven't seen that much - mostly the people I've been around just whine and moan whenever they don't get what they want! And believe me, no one appreciates me pointing out the irony to them...Lol!!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> I needed to feel wanted and safe.


That’s the special ingredient which is essential to having a wonderfully shared sex life, that so many people don’t seem to get.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> True. I guess that's because the person who isn't getting what they want is frustrated and automatically paints the other person as the problem.
> 
> What I've seen happen that is always interesting to me is that when a relationship ends (not always because of sex), the people will find new partners and then have the reverse problem - the LD will suddenly be with someone who's drive is lower, and the HD will be with someone who's drive is higher!


There is no way I would leave Mrs. C because that would be ridiculous but I haven't met the woman who could match my drive. I know from math that those saucy wenches exist but there is more to life and love than sex 4 or 5x a day. LoL!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DTO said:


> I dated a lady several years ago who at first had a lot going for her: attractive, good personality, smart, good job / house / car. And she was totally into me. But she had issues / hangups that killed the attraction I had fairly soon. From that point, there was no amount of attention or provision that would have made her an appealing long-term partner. The disclaimer is I do well for myself and don't look to anybody help meet my material or emotional needs, so it's not the same as those possible reasons I listed earlier. However, without that baseline physical attraction / chemistry present up front, there's simply nothing to build upon to last over time.


Oh!!! I meant to add that this story you told shows me that she DID NOT provide what you really wanted in a partner, because of her issues and hangups. That's exactly how I felt about my STBX, once I couldn't deny that he had serious issues (not related to his sex drive), it killed my desire and love for him. You saw the REAL person she was and you didn't want to be with that person anymore.

That just means that your list (with the very cool little dots!) would have different things, or the definitions of "provisioning" and stuff is different for YOU personally. Which is just how it's supposed to be!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> There is no way I would leave Mrs. C because that would be ridiculous but I haven't met the woman who could match my drive. I know from math that those saucy wenches exist but there is more to life and love than sex 4 or 5x a day. LoL!


I wonder what would have happened if you had been single for longer...could she have been out there??? Lol!!!

It doesn't really matter because I definitely believe it's also very good for a man's health to have some "alone time" every day if he wants, too!!!!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

With all this talk of compatibility and cuddles vs pounding and BJs and stuff, it got me wondering where one draws the line between compatibility and attraction and arousal etc etc. 

I had an old GF that was pretty and she and I were very compatible on a personal level, but very little sexual compatibility (for me anyway).

Another FWB in my past would be considered a Plain Jane at best by most men and a complete train wreck in her personal and professional life, but the chemistry and passion was sizzling. 

And the talk of not liking oral etc a few pages got me considering a theoretical question of whether guys like Channing Tatum or Ashton Kutcher or Robert Redford, Warren Beatty etc have ever once in the entire lives ever been with a woman that didn’t go down on them like they were gonna die young? 

And if one of those guys did happen to encounter such a woman, did they ever go back for seconds or even speak to them again?

And if you took every woman that swears she is disgusted by oral and would never do it, and you paired them up with Chippendales or Zack Effron or Blake Shelton etc what percentage of those women would maintain that they are disgusted by oral vs those that would suddenly be gobbling them like it was their last meal on earth? 

And I’m not going to just pick on the ladies here. 

How many guys that tell their wives they don’t like oral or won’t do foreplay etc learn to breathe through their ears if given a chance with Jenifer Aniston or Anna Kendrick etc?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> I wonder what would have happened if you had been single for longer...could she have been out there??? Lol!!!
> 
> It doesn't really matter because I definitely believe it's also very good for a man's health to have some "alone time" every day if he wants, too!!!!


I actually had pretty extensive experience compared to many men and some women came close. As high a drive as I am, there are other attributes that are more important to me.

Mrs. C probably couldn't be considered LD by any standards anyway. She is good for at least once a day at age 61 and had a much higher capacity when younger.😉


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

oldshirt said:


> With all this talk of compatibility and cuddles vs pounding and BJs and stuff, it got me wondering where one draws the line between compatibility and attraction and arousal etc etc.
> 
> I had an old GF that was pretty and she and I were very compatible on a personal level, but very little sexual compatibility (for me anyway).
> 
> Another FWB in my past would be considered a Plain Jane at best by most men and a complete train wreck in her personal and professional life, but the chemistry and passion was sizzling.


Huh? It's rather simple. Though for me, chemistry is split from attraction, chemistry for me is more 'mental wavelength', but different from compatibility (age/circumstances/values/beliefs/goals)

High compatibility, low attraction, low/high chemistry? Friends! (All irrelevant with no sexual attraction)
High compatibility, med-high attraction, low chemistry? FWBs!
Low/high compatibility, low attraction, high chemistry? Best mates!
Low compatibility, med-high attraction, low chemistry? Fbuddies!
Low compatibility, med-high attraction, high chemistry? The next damn trainwreck!

Ideally, you want high compatibility, high attraction, high chemistry all at once. I only found ever trainwrecks.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> I actually had pretty extensive experience compared to many men and some women came close. As high a drive as I am, there are other attributes that are more important to me.
> 
> Mrs. C probably couldn't be considered LD by any standards anyway. She is good for at least once a day at age 61 and had a much higher capacity when younger.😉


Same, with recent ex I was happy to do duty sex simply out of love except deep down she simply wasn't satisfied along with all the other love languages she needed.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> With all this talk of compatibility and cuddles vs pounding and BJs and stuff, it got me wondering where one draws the line between compatibility and attraction and arousal etc etc.
> 
> I had an old GF that was pretty and she and I were very compatible on a personal level, but very little sexual compatibility (for me anyway).
> 
> ...


These are good questions, but what I wonder is if any of those "hot" guys you mentioned continued to get blow jobs and porn star sex from their long term partners if they were together for years. I remember when Arnold Schwarzenegger's affair came out, the woman said he told her his wife (Maria Shriver) refused to have sex with him for years.

So sure, these rich stars can easily get any manner of sexual activity from random fan girls...but do the women they marry feel that way about them forever?? Or are they marrying women who lose attraction for them just like many other relationships?


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> And if you took every woman that swears she is disgusted by oral and would never do it, and you paired them up with Chippendales or Zack Effron or Blake Shelton etc what percentage of those women would maintain that they are disgusted by oral vs those that would suddenly be gobbling them like it was their last meal on earth?
> 
> And I’m not going to just pick on the ladies here.
> 
> How many guys that tell their wives they don’t like oral or won’t do foreplay etc learn to breathe through their ears if given a chance with Jenifer Aniston or Anna Kendrick etc?


This caused me to smile really big. Long ago in my first marriage, I had a huge crush on Kenny Chesney and my husband knew it. Of course he had a huge crush on Shania Twain.

I would have done anything and everything with Kenny just as I'm sure my then husband would have with Shania.

The sex life between my first husband and me wasn't good at all.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> These are good questions, but what I wonder is if any of those "hot" guys you mentioned continued to get blow jobs and porn star sex from their long term partners if they were together for years. I remember when Arnold Schwarzenegger's affair came out, the woman said he told her his wife (Maria Shriver) refused to have sex with him for years.
> 
> So sure, these rich stars can easily get any manner of sexual activity from random fan girls...but do the women they marry feel that way about them forever?? Or are they marrying women who lose attraction for them just like many other relationships?


Hot guys and gals don't have to work on themselves as much, in order to attract attention. So, they tend not to work on themselves and they also tend to not put in work into relationships, because they can continually fail at relationships and get in new ones right away. 

Eventually their inadequacies catch up with them. I think it's interesting how many movie stars and sports athletes and models tend to not have children.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> These are good questions, but what I wonder is if any of those "hot" guys you mentioned continued to get blow jobs and porn star sex from their long term partners if they were together for years. I remember when Arnold Schwarzenegger's affair came out, the woman said he told her his wife (Maria Shriver) refused to have sex with him for years.
> 
> So sure, these rich stars can easily get any manner of sexual activity from random fan girls...but do the women they marry feel that way about them forever?? Or are they marrying women who lose attraction for them just like many other relationships?


Resident "hawt" guy here and I can say Mrs. C still gets her temperature turned up by just looking at me or me flirting with her.

I absolutely get your post however. Long term takes work and commitment as well as the heat of attraction.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> With all this talk of compatibility and cuddles vs pounding and BJs and stuff, it got me wondering where one draws the line between compatibility and attraction and arousal etc etc.
> 
> I had an old GF that was pretty and she and I were very compatible on a personal level, but very little sexual compatibility (for me anyway).
> 
> ...


The women famous guys would be interested in would also be used to getting what they want. Of course the men probably also just go slumming and also hire prostitutes to try to avoid hooking up with someone clingy they can't get rid of which is a very real problem.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> Or are they marrying women who lose attraction for them just like many other relationships?



Obviously it does happen as celebrities often have more divorces than regular people.
(Probably because they’re getting more box lunches at the ‘Y’ and BJs from those not their spouse). 

But I used celebrities as conceptual examples of very attractive, high status people and didnt mean for it to mean literally those individuals.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> Obviously it does happen as celebrities often have more divorces than regular people.
> (*Probably because they’re getting more box lunches at the ‘Y’ *and BJs from those not their spouse).
> 
> But I used celebrities as conceptual examples of very attractive, high status people and didnt mean for it to mean literally those individuals.


What does that mean? Is that a sexual thing?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> What does that mean? Is that a sexual thing?


Yes, it is a sexual thing LOL 😂


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> Obviously it does happen as celebrities often have more divorces than regular people.
> (Probably because they’re getting more box lunches at the ‘Y’ and BJs from those not their spouse).
> 
> But I used celebrities as conceptual examples of very attractive, high status people and didnt mean for it to mean literally those individuals.


Well, yes, but I was also pointing out that they might end up with the same relationship sexual problems that other couples have, conceptual or not.

But I think your point is that women with genuine attraction for a guy WILL give him blow jobs?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jonty30 said:


> I think it's interesting how many movie stars and sports athletes and models tend to not have children.


I don’t know if that is true.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I don’t know if that is true.


I can't cite stats, but it seems to be true. 
I think it is because they don't want commitments of any kind.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> Yes, it is a sexual thing LOL 😂


I can't be expected to know all your swinger lingo!!!!!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> Well, yes, but I was also pointing out that they might end up with the same relationship sexual problems that other couples have, conceptual or not.
> 
> But I think your point is that women with genuine attraction for a guy WILL give him blow jobs?


Yes on both counts.

Meaning yes I believe men and women both naturally and freely do oral with people they have genuine, burning desire for and are in a state of arousal. 

But, I also agree with your assertion that as a relationship breaks down and they lose attraction and desire, that oral along with everything else will drop off the charts. 

I think the percentage of people that truly, innately do not like oral regardless of who it is or what the circumstances are is quite low to almost negligible. 

Do you suppose if there was some way to contact Channing Tatum and Anna Kendrick and ask them if they have ever had someone refuse to do the deed and told them to their face that they find oral disgusting,, do you think they would get back to us and tell us? 😆


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> I can't be expected to know all your swinger lingo!!!!!


That’s not really swinger lingo.

It’s more like 13 year boy lingo LOL


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> Oh!!! I meant to add that this story you told shows me that she DID NOT provide what you really wanted in a partner, because of her issues and hangups. That's exactly how I felt about my STBX, once I couldn't deny that he had serious issues (not related to his sex drive), it killed my desire and love for him. You saw the REAL person she was and you didn't want to be with that person anymore.
> 
> That just means that your list (with the very cool little dots!) would have different things, or the definitions of "provisioning" and stuff is different for YOU personally. Which is just how it's supposed to be!


Hmmm, I don't think you're getting the message I'm trying to convey. The only thing missing was the sex. She would have been a great choice regarding the other aspects of a successful partnership - family orientation, ambition / work ethic, life goals, etc.

At some point had the relationship progressed we would have been the couple where everything looks great from the outside - resources to do lots of stuff, live well, retire early, stuff in common and able to have fun in each other's company. But, for me (and I'm confident I'm in the majority) without a sexual connection none of that matters. Even if I weren't doing well for myself, the security of someone who could plug those gaps and be there every day isn't enough to overcome that lack of spark.

As far that lady goes, she is the epitome of someone who will dive in for other relationship benefits, even knowing the challenges that presents. She was willing to commit without that attraction (she wanted that for us) - which I think is bizarre. We were both mid-40s and know what a relationship requires. She acknowledged having issues stemming from very-conservative and unaffectionate parents, but did nothing to address them. 

Clearly since she wanted an LTR with me, I had what she was looking for. We dated for several months and never exhibited any desire or "heat" in my direction, which seems to be a great example of how you can have what you want and not be attracted to that person. Moreover, a short, failed marriage and poor success at dating should have been a clue that at a minimum she needs to convey upfront that she has challenges she's unwilling to work on. But yet there she was giving me crap for breaking it off.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Meaning yes I believe men and women both naturally and freely do oral with people they have genuine, burning desire for and are in a state of arousal.


But now to be fair, we have to take into other factors such as harsh, misguided religious indoctrination and past trauma and such that may be impacting people’s responses and outlooks etc.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

aaarghdub said:


> You get way more use out of the above things than sex. If you had sex 15 min/week that’s 14 hours a year out of 5,840 waking hours. Look at what your exchanging for 14 hours:
> 
> Time spent not being alone but working full time: 3600 (72 waking hours x 50 working weeks)
> 
> ...


Ok, so are you saying you do agree with marrying someone to whom you have little or no sexual attraction to get those other benefits?


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

My wife and I have a beautiful relationship. We love and admire each other. When we have misunderstandings, we get through them completely and come back together in a lovely way. 

In terms of sexuality, I might have once said we were incompatible. I don't anymore because I see it as more complex. There are women who I'm so strongly drawn to, I want to tear their clothes off. That was, for a long time, a requirement for me in any intimate relationship. I didn't date women unless they made me really hot. 

That's not what I have with my wife. It never was that. I was drawn to her in a different way. Tearing her clothes off would feel violent and I want to be kind and gentle. There is attraction. It's kind and gentle attraction. At first, this confused me. I thought it might be a lack of attraction. But then I noticed that when I'm in an open hearted and loving space, she'll seem to me like the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. I still don't want to rip her clothes off. But I love making love with her. 

So sometimes people may misidentify another kind of attraction that they're not used to as a lack of sexual attraction. I'm not saying this applies (or could apply) to every couple. It's just the journey that my wife and I have been on. We are truly closer today than we were on the day we first fell in love, the day we decided to marry, the day we married. We grow closer with each passing day. 

I am still drawn more strongly to other women in the outer "I want to rip her clothes off" sort of way. I wish I wasn't. But it doesn't mean anything. I'm drawn to them like a biological machine. It's not about who they are. It's about arbitrary attributes that have no real meaning. Nature's way of trying to ensure survival of the species. In our best moments, that melts away entirely. At those times, I truly want only her.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Parallax857 said:


> My wife and I have a beautiful relationship. We love and admire each other. When we have misunderstandings, we get through them completely and come back together in a lovely way.
> 
> In terms of sexuality, I might have once said we were incompatible. I don't anymore because I see it as more complex. There are women who I'm so strongly drawn to, I want to tear their clothes off. That was, for a long time, a requirement for me in any intimate relationship. I didn't date women unless they made me really hot.
> 
> ...


But you still love making love to your wife (presumably with regularity). Most of this is about relationships that have little or no sexual contact, where the frequency and acts desired are objectionable to one partner or the other.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

DTO said:


> But you still love making love to your wife (presumably with regularity). Most of this is about relationships that have little or no sexual contact, where the frequency and acts desired are objectionable to one partner or the other.


I shared because I thought it might have value to someone. I'm sure it doesn't apply to everyone. We have gone long stretches of time without sex. When there isn't a strong pull, that can happen all too easily. But then we come back together because the desire for emotional intimacy is strong. There were requests I made early on that she said she wasn't comfortable with. At first, it bothered me because I took it personally. Later on, I realized it was her stuff and not about me in any way. Recently, I mentioned something about one of those requests and she opened the door to possibly going there. This time, I spoke of how, back then, I thought engaging in that act meant something and it represented a kind of emotional intimacy (in my imagination). She said, "I wish you had explained it that way back then" and she actually got curious about it. So perhaps it will happen soon. 

I guess my overall point is that when people can be close in their hearts, sexuality can open. Sometimes in ways that are surprising. It's been surprising to me in many ways. As an example, if I walk in on her when she's in the shower, I don't get aroused. But when she tells me she loves me, I feel myself getting hard. When I think of how much I love her, same thing. Ultimately, everything about sex arises from within.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DTO said:


> Hmmm, I don't think you're getting the message I'm trying to convey. The only thing missing was the sex. She would have been a great choice regarding the other aspects of a successful partnership - family orientation, ambition / work ethic, life goals, etc.
> 
> At some point had the relationship progressed we would have been the couple where everything looks great from the outside - resources to do lots of stuff, live well, retire early, stuff in common and able to have fun in each other's company. But, for me (and I'm confident I'm in the majority) without a sexual connection none of that matters. Even if I weren't doing well for myself, the security of someone who could plug those gaps and be there every day isn't enough to overcome that lack of spark.
> 
> ...


Oh, I see. I did read your story wrong, I thought you were saying the chemistry was there, but her issues ruined it, so I wasn't sure what the "issues" were...Lol!!

It makes sense to me, though, because how can you have any attraction continue for someone who doesn't reciprocate?

And of course she is going to say it's YOU, she clearly had no interest in meeting anyone's needs except her own. I don't think it's a sex drive or affection issue...I think it's a selfishness issue. Which is what most relationship problems boil down to at their core. At least in my opinion.

I think you are better off alone than with someone like that.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Parallax857 said:


> I shared because I thought it might have value to someone. I'm sure it doesn't apply to everyone. We have gone long stretches of time without sex. When there isn't a strong pull, that can happen all too easily. But then we come back together because the desire for emotional intimacy is strong. There were requests I made early on that she said she wasn't comfortable with. At first, it bothered me because I took it personally. Later on, I realized it was her stuff and not about me in any way. Recently, I mentioned something about one of those requests and she opened the door to possibly going there. This time, I spoke of how, back then, I thought engaging in that act meant something and it represented a kind of emotional intimacy (in my imagination). She said, "I wish you had explained it that way back then" and she actually got curious about it. So perhaps it will happen soon.
> 
> I guess my overall point is that when people can be close in their hearts, sexuality can open. Sometimes in ways that are surprising. It's been surprising to me in many ways. As an example, if I walk in on her when she's in the shower, I don't get aroused. But when she tells me she loves me, I feel myself getting hard. When I think of how much I love her, same thing. Ultimately, everything about sex arises from within.


I'm sure your post will have value to someone. And I'm glad you are in a situation that you and your wife are happy with.

However, your version of a sex life sounds too complicated and convoluted to meet my needs. And I especially need open sexuality with my partner in order to feel close in my heart with him.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> I'm sure your post will have value to someone. And I'm glad you are in a situation that you and your wife are happy with.
> 
> However, your version of a sex life sounds too complicated and convoluted to meet my needs. And I especially need open sexuality with my partner in order to feel close in my heart with him.


When we're intimate, it bring us even closer for a time. But you're correct that we don't need it to feel intimate. We do a lot of work within ourselves and together to work through everything that comes between us. If we ignore something, it's just to take a bit of space so we're in a good space to deal with it. So there are times we've gone to bed upset. When one is too tired or exhausted to process something, forcing it won't do any good and can be destructive. We'll come back to it when we're well rested and have each had time to sit with our own reactions and gain insight into the nature of the conflict. Then we can come to it from a place of empathy for the other and curiosity as to what went off track and why. We'll come out the other side more connected than ever. 

I agree, though, that sex is one way to reestablish intimacy.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Obviously it does happen as celebrities often have more divorces than regular people.
> (Probably because they’re getting more box lunches at the ‘Y’ and BJs from those not their spouse).
> 
> But I used celebrities as conceptual examples of very attractive, high status people and didnt mean for it to mean literally those individuals.


Their relationship success rate and happiness with their sex lives, probably isn’t that far from lots of other non-famous people.

It still all comes down to who you are, who you choose and how all behave and feel towards the other.


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## Gomezaddams51 (Jun 15, 2020)

My wife and I were virgins when we got married in 1973 so we had no clue about how much sex we wanted in marriage or even how to have much more than basic vanilla missionary position sex. Our wedding night totally sucked since neither of us knew what we were doing and my wife had a lot of pain and decided she hated sex. We rarely had sex, other than to try and get her pregnant after which it disappeared until the next time she wanted to get pregnant. After the 4th child (our 8th year of marriage) she told me that was it and there would be no more.
I made the mistake of staying in the marriage for another 10 years before I over came the religious brainwashing about no divorce and the BS that once you were married you were stuck with each other until death. I wish I had dumped her at the 8 year mark. I would have rather payed child support and had sex with others than live in a miserable sexless marriage that I hated and grew to hate her.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> And of course she is going to say it's YOU, she clearly had no interest in meeting anyone's needs except her own. I don't think it's a sex drive or affection issue...I think it's a selfishness issue. Which is what most relationship problems boil down to at their core. At least in my opinion.


I figured that was one possibility. A second possibility is that she really thought it could be worked out later (meaning an actual spark wasn't necessary and we would just need to sort out the mechanics). That seems super-naive, but there are some people here on TAM whose spouses just assumed it would fall into place over time and didn't think they'd have to work on it.

Or she had high hopes and needed someone to blame (besides herself). She had zero luck romantically - one short marriage in her early 20s, not much going on since, never had kids even though she likes them. For someone who wants an LTR, that has to hurt even if you are your own worst enemy.

Whatever the reason, it didn't matter. I am comfortable with ending relationships over lousy / sporadic sex and did what was needed.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I think this thread has run its course. Key takeaways:


@Personal and @ConanHub are so studly they never, ever have sexual problems
@Cletus does have trouble because he’s not as studly
@RandomDude is even more studly as his women want to do him four times or more per day.
@oldshirt really, really likes Channing Tatum and would likely perform oral on him if given the chance 😂
ladies need to feel safe and supported and magically perform any and all sex acts willingly- just to please their men even if they don’t enjoy it

😂 😂 😂


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> I think this thread has run its course. Key takeaways:
> 
> 
> @Personal and @ConanHub are so studly they never, ever have sexual problems
> ...


You forgot #6: @CatholicDad's Law - All relationship and sexual problems are caused by porn.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> I think this thread has run its course. Key takeaways:
> 
> 
> @Personal and @ConanHub are so studly they never, ever have sexual problems
> ...


Lolol!!!! I think God has given you the gift of discernment and understanding!!!!!! You are truly blessed!!!


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

DTO said:


> Ok, so are you saying you do agree with marrying someone to whom you have little or no sexual attraction to get those other benefits?


No, I’m agreeing with your list of other more important reasons why people get married.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> I think the percentage of people that truly, innately do not like oral regardless of who it is or what the circumstances are is quite low to almost negligible.


I think you might be way out over your skis here. 

This is a hard one to quantify, because it doesn't seem that hardly anyone doing legitimate research (instead of reader opinion polls) is publishing publicly available data - but from what you can uncover online, it's pretty clear that the number of people who do not like giving or receiving oral sex is a small but not insignificant minority, well above almost negligible.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Lolol!!!! I think God has given you the gift of discernment and understanding!!!!!! You are truly blessed!!!





CatholicDad said:


> I think this thread has run its course. Key takeaways:
> 
> 
> @Personal and @ConanHub are so studly they never, ever have sexual problems
> ...


I don't know if I'm a "stud" or not, past or present. I do know that I lack the insecurity gene required to constantly remind the forum of how big a stud I may or may not be.

But in the spirit of the post, @CatholicDad, your wife didn't complain, except to say "ouch".


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

aaarghdub said:


> No, I’m agreeing with your list of other more important reasons why people get married.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nowhere did I say these are more important reasons to get married. They are simply reasons why people marry those to whom they are not sexually attracted.

I've consistently said that marriage is a sexual relationship, and marrying people where that attraction does not exist is a bad idea. Not sure how you got anything else.

Sure those other things matter greatly, but not more than having that baseline attraction. None of those makes up for a partner who doesn't want you. And, except for possibly having kids, none of those require a spouse anyways.

You can secure your own future. If there's trouble with finances you can get a better job, side job/hustle, move. If you're lonely, be more social. And so on.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

aaarghdub said:


> You get way more use out of the above things than sex. If you had sex 15 min/week that’s 14 hours a year out of 5,840 waking hours. Look at what your exchanging for 14 hours:
> 
> Time spent not being alone but working full time: 3600 (72 waking hours x 50 working weeks)
> 
> ...


Looking at this again...

This seems very cold and transactional, the opposite of what's supposed to be a loving partnership. Do you advocate full disclosure of one's intent?

Outside of the ethics of using someone (which this absolutely is), do you really think someone can get by on one quickie a week? In a newer relationship?

You'd better figure on at least an hour a week over the long-term. Regardless of what the frequency is, what do you do when the lack of attraction makes sex very unpleasant? You can read stories on TAM, on Reddit, etc. about people who detest sex with their spouses and cannot bring themselves to do it. Do you really want to do that to yourself?

Or, what happens when your spouse figures out you don't really like them in a marital way?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cletus said:


> This is a hard one to quantify, because it doesn't seem that hardly anyone doing legitimate research (instead of reader opinion polls) is publishing publicly available data - but from what you can uncover online, it's pretty clear that the number of people who do not like giving or receiving oral sex is a small but not insignificant minority, well above almost negligible.



I agree that we will probably never know an exact percentage. 

If I say that percentage is 8% and you come back and say you think the number is closer to 9.5% , I will let you have the win. 

The problem with self reported online posts are people are typically referring to their first hand perspective at one point in time with their current partner out of a roughly 80 year life span. And things change and evolve over time and are influenced by a million things depending on environments, conditions and people involved. 

Some who hates oral with one person at one point in time may relish it with someone else at another stage of their life and vice versa. 

Now yes, I realise there are people that truly don't like it regardless of the people involved or circumstances etc. They do walk among us. 

But based on my personal experiences and the people I have known and talked to and things I have read here and other sex and relationship forums, I believe that number to be very small. Whether that percentage is 5%, 10% or 15% I do not know.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

CatholicDad said:


> I think this thread has run its course. Key takeaways:
> 
> 
> @Personal and @ConanHub are so studly they never, ever have sexual problems
> ...


Lol!  

Nah only 3x and not a stud, just a messed up picker.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I agree that we will probably never know an exact percentage.
> 
> If I say that percentage is 8% and you come back and say you think the number is closer to 9.5% , I will let you have the win.
> 
> ...


Only take a little google to discover ... in addition 26% of women have given oral and not received any while only 10% of men reported so.

"The biggest gender difference in oral sex was the enjoyment of giving oral. More than half of men who had given cunnilingus reported enjoying it a lot, while an additional 41 percent enjoyed it somewhat, and 7 percent didn't enjoy it much or at all. Contrastingly, only 28 percent of the women who gave fellatio found it very pleasurable; for 55 it was somewhat pleasurable; and 17 percent didn't enjoy doing it. This pattern was more significant in casual hookups. "


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Honestly when it comes to sex I feel people just should not expect their partners to put out just because you know, you're in a relationship. Instead each other should acknowledge each other's sexual triggers, turn ons and turn off's and adapt accordingly.

Maybe it's easier for me to say as I've always been this:









Except I'm the 'woman' with lots of switches while I ended up with women where when I touched them at the right/wrong place well, it's on! I touch everywhere but where they want until the last minute though - teasing and building tension is fun for me.

If that fails, the LD if they love the HD and happy to compromise they should just put out but if that's the solution the HD must accept that's its just duty sex and don't expect more than that. If it's not enough there's no other solution really.

But seriously it ****s me why it's so damn hard to tease me for half an hour to build sexual tension instead of spending a full hour complaining and whining about not getting enough sex and then getting duty sex in return instead of something more arousing for both parties. It doesn't have to be so hard!

Question for HD people, what steps do you make to arouse your spouse? Is there both sexual and non sexual touching? Is there frequent conflict or frequent love? There's alot of things that inspires or kills libido.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

I think sexuality is challenging when people focus on getting their own desires met. When sex is devotional, with the focus on satisfying the needs of the other, then it may open. Ideally, both partners wind up in this space. To get there requires a foundation of intimacy. 

As I've said elsewhere, my wife and I aren't naturally compatible. But a deep foundation of love smooths those differences over because we're both so caring with the other. We each want to do what satisfies the other. It gives pleasure to give pleasure. It hasn't always been easy. We've had to get through some difficult spaces. But we just keep talking it through in a kind, gentle and patient way. 

It helps that we see sex as an expression of underlying intimacy. It can also be a doorway to intimacy but it works best if the intimacy is generated through daily action and then the sex can open and flow. Ultimately, if there's something she really doesn't feel comfortable doing, I wouldn't want her to do it. There's more than one way to be satisfied.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

RandomDude said:


> Question for HD people, what steps do you make to arouse your spouse? Is there both sexual and non sexual touching? Is there frequent conflict or frequent love? There's alot of things that inspires or kills libido.


I hope I keep this straight as it's easy to become convoluted.

During my 1st marriage, my husband had a really high sex drive and I had a low drive (for him).

In my 2nd marriage, I had a high sex drive and my 2nd husband had a low sex drive.

I'm currently in my 3rd marriage and I still have a high sex drive, but my husband is older (in his early 60's) and sex isn't high on his list though he and I do have sex, just not a lot (but I love him, we get along great and overall things are really good between us).

My first husband was nice, thoughtful, he did so much around the house, for me, for my parents, for our children once we had them, he'd watch shows with, go places I wanted to go, he'd do my honey-do lists, he'd rub my back, neck, shoulders, feet etc. pretty much each night.

I knew he loved me and that he wanted to have sex all the time, but he didn't ask a lot, not even once a week. Why? He knew I didn't like sex with him. Sadly, for me anyway, he was comically well endowed and he and I never became sexually compatible. He and I met each other when we were both 14 years old and we were together from then on, through college, we got married after we graduated and we were married for over 16 years.

I was prim and proper when I was young (I'll go so far now as to say I was a prude way back then). I didn't know what I didn't know. He was my first partner, the first penis I ever saw and I just thought it was normal. This was long before the internet as he and I met in 1981. I grew up in the church though we didn't wait to have sex as he and I became sexually active when we were both 16 years old and the first time we had sex was terrible, I bled horribly and just to be fair, he didn't know we were going to have sex that time. We'd never had sex yet and I initiated it. I didn't have lube and it didn't go well. I had no idea how it was supposed to go either.

As the years went by, he was patient, he loved everything about sex, foreplay, showering together, touching etc. but the actual intercourse part just never worked between us. We used a lot of lube, we'd reapply it two or three times but he and I were never able to get past this.

I didn't want, like or look forward to sex with him and I began to turn him down a lot. 

In time, we divorced and in my 2nd marriage, things were much in terms of sex. In fact, I loved it with my 2nd husband. I was 40 and he was 50 years old when we were married. Besides being a little older, he was a little heavy, with high blood pressure and he needed to use the little blue pill, which I didn't mind at all.

Sex with my 2nd husband was really nice, it felt great as he was just about average down there, a tad under actually but it felt perfect for me.

I actually wanted more sex with my 2nd husband than he wanted and I'd talk to him about it. He apologized about his weight, his blood pressure and for the little blue pill being so expensive. We had a nice sex life and I would "woo" him in many ways from spending quality time with him, making him his favorite meals, rubbing his back, his shoulders. He liked acts of service and I did many things for him out of love (not just because I wanted sex is my point).

I talked with him outside of the bedroom and said we didn't have to have intercourse each time. I told him I loved him and that we could do many things sexually with each other that didn't include intercourse.

My first husband liked to kiss, but I'd turn my head away or break off the kiss when he was trying to kiss me for a long time.

With my 2nd husband, I wanted to kiss him a lot and for long periods of time and he'd turn away. I realized just how my first husband must have felt.

So, I took many steps, in and out of the bedroom to arouse my 2nd and 3rd husbands (I took steps to avoid arousing my first husband but he was still always aroused, that's a whole other story but he was erect too often, for too long like when we watched TV, worked in the yard, doing chores etc.). I spoke with my 2nd and 3rd husbands out of the bedroom.

To me, sex isn't only when a couple are doing the deed. To me, foreplay begins immediately after sex is done and it should lead up to the next time one has sex with their partner. I would flirt with them, say and do things, touch them in the kitchen in playful ways.

I took the time to learn what they liked, wanted etc. Sadly, I didn't do that with my first husband, but he didn't need any help being turned on, he just was, all of the time.


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## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

Parallax857 said:


> I think sexuality is challenging when people focus on getting their own desires met. When sex is devotional, with the focus on satisfying the needs of the other, then it may open. Ideally, both partners wind up in this space. To get there requires a foundation of intimacy.
> 
> We each want to do what satisfies the other. It gives pleasure to give pleasure.


This has been at the core of past sexual incompatibility issues for me. Being with women (past LTR & GF) who crave a selfish beast in bed vs a devotional lover who gives them orgasms daily. I've learned to meet my wife half way. I'm now 1/2 beast, and she's 1/2 devotional. And I've slowly learned about the spiritual aspects of being her beast.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> I hope I keep this straight as it's easy to become convoluted.
> 
> During my 1st marriage, my husband had a really high sex drive and I had a low drive (for him).
> 
> ...


LOL OMG that's what I do but it also didn't work.

What happened with your 2nd husband? Why the divorce, it seemed you two managed your sex drive imbalance quite well.

BTW this is like a dream: "I talked with him outside of the bedroom and said we didn't have to have intercourse each time. I told him I loved him and that we could do many things sexually with each other that didn't include intercourse."



> To me, sex isn't only when a couple are doing the deed. To me, foreplay begins immediately after sex is done and it should lead up to the next time one has sex with their partner. I would flirt with them, say and do things, touch them in the kitchen in playful ways.


Agreed and hell for me at this point I would settle with just no nagging


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> I hope I keep this straight as it's easy to become convoluted.
> 
> During my 1st marriage, my husband had a really high sex drive and I had a low drive (for him).
> 
> ...


So to summarize you have been LD once and HD twice relative to your partner. So have an appreciation of what both sides of the dynamic experience. It is a shame your second didn't address the weight issue, it would have made all of the difference in the world if he had. He could have gotten the BP down, off of the blue pill and maybe matched or surpassed your drive. 

Your first was probably *on* all of the time because you couldn't meet his innate needs. Hopefully he eventually met his match.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

RandomDude said:


> What happened with your 2nd husband? Why the divorce, it seemed you two managed your sex drive imbalance quite well.


Yes, our sex life was pretty good actually and not the reason at all for our divorce.

That was due to many other things, blending families as he had a prior marriage and a son and I had (have) 3 children.

We had pets and he wasn't keen on that either but I wasn't giving my children's dog up either and he knew that while we dated and when he proposed to me and when we got married as well.

It was many little things over time. He had his son 50-50 with his ex-wife but his son didn't want to be around as much with my 3 younger children. His son was a great kid, a nice young man now actually and he and I got along well.

But when he was with his dad, for 7 years as his dad was divorced for 7 years before he married me, it was just the two of them alone, no pets, small house etc.

Our house, my 2nd husband and me was a zoo of sorts with my 3 young children, our dog, then a cat and then a 2nd dog too.

There was always noise, things going on, coming and going and his son was in high school and my youngest two were in grade school at that time. His son didn't dislike my children, they were just too far apart in age, had different interests etc.

But, many little things just added up in time. Money was an issue too, not a lack of it though we weren't rich.

My 2nd husband was frugal. His car had over 200K miles on it when I met him and married him. He had been in a nice but small house after his divorce and I was in my own home with my 3 children that I bought after my divorce from my first husband. We both sold our houses to buy a home together and it was large.

It wasn't any one purchase, the house, my new car, things for the family, my children etc. but eventually it came out that he didn't like all the money going out (we paid all our bills, we were still saving too).

It's just that we had differences with respect to that was all. Neither he nor I was right or wrong, we just weren't on the same page and he didn't talk about it really but he let it build up slowly over time and it went boom along with some other things.

It was more like death from a thousand cuts between us with all that goes on with blended families. I loved sex with him, it was great, nice, felt wonderful for me etc. But there is a lot more than just sex to a relationship, to a marriage of course, as you know yourself so he and I didn't make it together long term sadly.

My current husband and I both empty nesters as my three children are all in their 20's, all young adults now and his are even older.

It's just the two of us and we get along great but sex isn't the end all and be all for him though he's affectionate.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> Yes, our sex life was pretty good actually and not the reason at all for our divorce.
> 
> That was due to many other things, blending families as he had a prior marriage and a son and I had (have) 3 children.
> 
> ...


And you had great sex despite LD/HD in the middle of all that?

Fellas I think we have a winner! 👏👏


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

RandomDude said:


> And you had great sex despite LD/HD in the middle of all that?


Yes, for a while, several years anyway until the other issues began to override things.

I didn't get as much intercourse with him as I wanted, but he met me halfway in other things as we did many other things besides intercourse so it wasn't all or nothing.

We didn't just have sex once a month or once every six weeks and then nothing else. 

He felt safe and comfortable knowing that all of our interactions weren't going to lead to intercourse. He didn't have to worry, take a pill, plan for it etc.

If he and I could have worked through our other issues, we'd still be a happy couple, even sexually.

He was a nice man, I'm glad to have met and known him. We were together for a year and a half before marrying and being that we were both older, both had been married before, we thought we knew enough about each other, it turns out we didn't though.

Sex wasn't an issue for us, between us though. Sure, I would have liked intercourse more with him as it was wonderful for me, but he met me halfway so to speak.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

aaarghdub said:


> No, I’m agreeing with your list of other more important reasons why people get married.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If sex is so unimportant, then why don't partners who don't want any sex agree to an open marriage??


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> During my 1st marriage, my husband had a really high sex drive and I had a low drive (for him).
> 
> My first husband was nice, thoughtful, he did so much around the house, for me, for my parents, for our children once we had them, he'd watch shows with, go places I wanted to go, he'd do my honey-do lists, he'd rub my back, neck, shoulders, feet etc. pretty much each night.
> 
> ...


So you are saying he was large sized and it made sex uncomfortable for you to the point where you didn't want sex with him, and you had a low drive FOR HIM...??

This goes against all male TAM thinking!!!!! If you knew how many penis size threads there have been...Lol!!!!!!


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> If sex is so unimportant, then why don't partners who don't want any sex agree to an open marriage??


I think one partner typically would but not both. I think the partner who has a lower interest would typically say 'No' to that based on the fear the partner going out and seeking it elsewhere might find someone they like better.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> So you are saying he was large sized and it made sex uncomfortable for you to the point where you didn't want sex with him, and you had a low drive FOR HIM...??
> 
> This goes against all male TAM thinking!!!!! If you knew how many penis size threads there have been...Lol!!!!!!


Bingo!

😁


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I think one partner typically would but not both. I think the partner who has a lower interest would typically say 'No' to that based on the fear the partner going out and seeking it elsewhere might find someone they like better.


OF COURSE. But then that means the LD person does recognize that sex is very important to maintaining a relationship. It's just that for many of them, they prefer to control the sexual interactions, as opposed to engaging in them.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> Bingo!
> 
> 😁


Women (of my generation anyway) tend not to talk about the ones that don’t fit but, yes, sometimes too much is just … too much and that can definitely lead to aversion.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

Openminded said:


> Women (of my generation anyway) tend not to talk about the ones that don’t fit but, yes, sometimes too much is just … too much and that can definitely lead to aversion.


That's been my sense as a man too. I'm average sized. One girlfriend told me about an ex who was too big. Made things uncomfortable. When I look back, I fit really nicely with some partners, not quite as well with others. I was never too large for anyone. Some might have received a bit more pleasure with someone longer or wider. Might have made various sexual positions easier or possible. But sex was never unpleasant with anyone, at least not for me. I don't think for any of my partners (unless we were in a difficult emotional place, which we were trying to rectify through sex).

The vagina is amazing in that it tightens down on the penis. Kind of like the tissue in the face that allows us to smile. If one smiles real wide, the face doesn't get stretched out. It immediately returns to its prior shape. Vaginal muscles and tissue are the same. A woman cannot be stretched out by a large penis. A virgin will lose the ridge of membrane, the hymen, that might make first sexual experiences uncomfortable and make the vagina seem very tight. But once it's gone, there's just the vagina itself and it doesn't get stretched or distorted.

All of this is very mechanical, however, and in my experience the quality of sex is far far more about emotional intimacy than anything else. I "fit" better with my last girlfriend than I do with my wife. Ideally, with my wife, my penis would be a bit larger. But it's not a big deal. She loves touching it and, even more, she loves it when I'm inside her. She comes just fine. I have a bit more trouble coming than I did when the fit was more ideal. All of that said, I can't tell you how grateful I am that my last girlfriend and I didn't get married but rather broke up and my wife came along. There's so much more to life, to marriage and to sex than a vagina that perfectly accommodates a penis.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> OF COURSE. But then that means the LD person does recognize that sex is very important to maintaining a relationship. It's just that for many of them, they prefer to control the sexual interactions, as opposed to engaging in them.


Yep! And THATS the problem in most HD\LD marriages.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Yep! And THATS the problem in most HD\LD marriages.


You're assuming motives and that's almost always a mistake. What looks like control to one partner looks like something else entirely to the other. Clearly his or her needs aren't being met through sex in some way, which is causing that partner to lack interest. Figuring out what's behind it is more complex and challenging. If my wife lost interest in sex, the first thing I'd want to do is ask why and really understand. Then we could see if it's something that could be fixed. 

What's usually behind a lack of sex, in my experience, is poor communication. It all starts with a four letter word for intercourse -- "T A L K".


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Parallax857 said:


> You're assuming motives and that's almost always a mistake. What looks like control to one partner looks like something else entirely to the other. Clearly his or her needs aren't being met through sex in some way, which is causing that partner to lack interest. Figuring out what's behind it is more complex and challenging. If my wife lost interest in sex, the first thing I'd want to do is ask why and really understand. Then we could see if it's something that could be fixed.
> 
> What's usually behind a lack of sex, in my experience, is poor communication. It all starts with a four letter word for intercourse -- "T A L K".


You are simplifying this way too much in my experience (and what I've see others experience).
What you don't realize is that MOST people in sexless relationships HAVE "talked"...but very often the person who is controlling the sexual relationship doesn't want to talk about anything because they are fine with things the way they are.

It's very often not a lack of communication...it's a lack of CARE by the partner who is happy with the way things are, and doesn't care about how their monogamous partner feels about it.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> You are simplifying this way too much in my experience (and what I've see others experience).
> What you don't realize is that MOST people in sexless relationships HAVE "talked"...but very often the person who is controlling the sexual relationship doesn't want to talk about anything because they are fine with things the way they are.
> 
> It's very often not a lack of communication...it's a lack of CARE by the partner who is happy with the way things are, and doesn't care about how their monogamous partner feels about it.


I'm a divorce attorney and mediator. I've been dealing with this stuff for 25 years professionally. I see this dynamic all the time. People accurately report the other partner's behavior but then they take it one step further and assume a motive. That motive is off base almost all the time. 

One of the motives people assume is "a desire to control". There's a very small subset of people with a desire to control. Perhaps we can call them sociopaths. If I had a nickel for each time a female client claimed her husband was a narcissist or a sociopath, I'd be a rich guy. Men typically claim their wife has borderline. It's almost never true. Perhaps 5% of the time it's fully true and another 10% of the time there's some indication of elements of those disorders. 

Same for motivations. What looks like "control" to one party can look like "a need for safety" to the other. Typically the sex goes south when one (or both) partner(s) feel that his/her needs aren't being met. That can arise for a huge variety of reasons. It's one of the reasons there are so many sexless marriages and an even larger number of married couples who are less than completely satisfied with the relationship and/or their sex lives.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Parallax857 said:


> Typically the sex goes south when one (or both) partner(s) feel that his/her needs aren't being met. That can arise for a huge variety of reasons. *It's one of the reasons there are so many sexless marriages and an even larger number of married couples who are less than completely satisfied with the relationship and/or their sex lives.*


For the people you encounter in your business, who are the ones with problems bad enough they are willing to drop *big* bucks to get loose from the pain, is the sex disappearing just a symptom more often than a cause? If a person is p!st at their partner most of the time for whatever reason, they might not care to share sex with them. They might use denial as a way to stick it to the partner. What "needs" do you find to be the major initiator of the sex going south? Financial? Emotional? Several of the threads on TAM recount situations where female acknowledged that their husband was best lay ever, but they cheated anyway because "their emotional needs" weren't being met, or because they felt "lonely".


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Parallax857 said:


> You're assuming motives and that's almost always a mistake. What looks like control to one partner looks like something else entirely to the other. Clearly his or her needs aren't being met through sex in some way, which is causing that partner to lack interest. Figuring out what's behind it is more complex and challenging. *If my wife lost interest in sex, the first thing I'd want to do is ask why and really understand.* Then we could see if it's something that could be fixed.
> 
> What's usually behind a lack of sex, in my experience, is poor communication. It all starts with a four letter word for intercourse -- "T A L K".


I agree with you mostly... but the bolded implies your partner is going to tell you the truth, which is not always the case.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> I agree with you mostly... but the bolded implies your partner is going to tell you the truth, which is not always the case.


You also need to hear them and believe what they say (assuming it was true) and then try to fix it. As said above often they won’t want to tell you the real reasons so there needs to be enough trust there that they will tell you what is really going on.

It’s a lot easier to say or write that down as it is to do it.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> I agree with you mostly... but the bolded implies your partner is going to tell you the truth, which is not always the case.


Or that they even think there is a problem with the sex life. Lack of sex a few times a week is a problem for the HD partner but an LD partner will often says things like "We just had sex!" or " "thats all you think about" to the HD partner.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> You also need to hear them and believe what they say (assuming it was true) and then try to fix it. As said above often they won’t want to tell you the real reasons so there needs to be enough trust there that they will tell you what is really going on.
> 
> It’s a lot easier to say or write that down as it is to do it.


My wife, with her mental issues, is a typical case. She never told me the real reasons. She always said she was fine. It wasn't her fault, really. She was dealing with her issues first and then the children and then her job... I came last (no pun intended)... once she said to me... do you really think that sex is our only problem? I said "Yes!". I just assumed she was struggling in some other ways, but she never told me anything. I could not get it out of her. To this day, I still don't know. I agree that communication is paramount, but sometimes we are unable to communicate.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Or that they even think there is a problem with the sex life. Lack of sex a few times a week is a problem for the HD partner but an LD partner will often says things like "We just had sex!" or " "thats all you think about" to the HD partner.


yes, that was my wife's line of "defence" as well. I was "hounding" her. Remember: we were having sex twice a month at the most. Hounding her?


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> yes, that was my wife's line of "defence" as well. I was "hounding" her. Remember: we were having sex twice a month at the most. Hounding her?


Yep I hear that too (We just HAD sex the other day!) as if there is some sex limitation whereby you can have sex too much.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Yep I hear that too (We just HAD sex the other day!) as if there is some sex limitation whereby you can have sex too much.


The problem was her perception... she probably "felt" hounded and therefore less inclined to have sex with me (hence the frequency). I didn't get it...


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Yep I hear that too (We just HAD sex the other day!) as if there is some sex limitation whereby you can have sex too much.


Fortunately my wife knows better.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> You are simplifying this way too much in my experience (and what I've see others experience).
> What you don't realize is that MOST people in sexless relationships HAVE "talked"...but very often the person who is controlling the sexual relationship doesn't want to talk about anything because they are fine with things the way they are.
> 
> It's very often not a lack of communication...it's a lack of CARE by the partner who is happy with the way things are, and doesn't care about how their monogamous partner feels about it.


In my case it wasn't a lack of care, more like we given up trying to talk about it and find other solutions. So we just settled with what we had until things either changed for better or worse.

Fights about sex never end well and never end in my favor so just meh and whatever.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> Fortunately my wife knows better.


What your wife knows about you is that if she doesn't care about your sexual needs, YOU will not accept excuses and she may lose her marriage to you.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> In my case it wasn't a lack of care, more like we given up trying to talk about it and find other solutions. So we just settled with what we had until things either changed for better or worse.
> 
> Fights about sex never end well and never end in my favor so just meh and whatever.


I'm curious...what do you do to make sure any new partner knows what your needs and expectations are with sex?
Do you come right out and let potential partners know what your feelings about sex are??


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> I'm curious...what do you do to make sure any new partner knows what your needs and expectations are with sex?
> Do you come right out and let potential partners know what your feelings about sex are??


Of course I do, or did anyway, they either disregard my needs or acknowledge them but end up prioritising theirs over mine, which is normal.

Example -> my need for foreplay/tease is disregarded because why does she have to put in the effort when other men are ready to go just looking at her, and even when acknowledged, it's not enough as eventually their needs overcome their patience and instead of sexual tension resulting in wild sex it results in frustration and fights.

Being @A18S37K14H18 is simply too much to ask if you're HD like my exs it seems.

After a while what can you do? After already communicating what you want, if your partner can't do it what's the point? Either accept or walk. I accepted because we had other things going for us and I was committed.

Hell not to mention, what's the point communicating my needs anyway, because her friends' boyfriends don't have such needs! Bah, I hated it when she threw them in my face. Bah! (This problem was exclusive to recent ex, as my ex-wife not once compared me with another man, except that one time she told me she had bigger and I responded that they didn't know how to use it otherwise she wouldn't be with me - that was the one time sh-t test and haha)


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

In Absentia said:


> yes, that was my wife's line of "defence" as well. I was "hounding" her. Remember: we were having sex twice a month at the most. Hounding her?





FloridaGuy1 said:


> Or that they even think there is a problem with the sex life. Lack of sex a few times a week is a problem for the HD partner but an LD partner will often says things like "We just had sex!" or " "thats all you think about" to the HD partner.


Maybe it lies in the approach?
There have been many times where I was indeed horny but my ex(s) would ruin it with their brute force approach.











You guys are not asking for it are ya? Don't give them that opportunity, don't initiate verbally. That way they can't even use those lines.
If they reject your non-verbal intimacy and affection though that's another thing.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

Rus47 said:


> For the people you encounter in your business, who are the ones with problems bad enough they are willing to drop *big* bucks to get loose from the pain, is the sex disappearing just a symptom more often than a cause? If a person is p!st at their partner most of the time for whatever reason, they might not care to share sex with them. They might use denial as a way to stick it to the partner. What "needs" do you find to be the major initiator of the sex going south? Financial? Emotional? Several of the threads on TAM recount situations where female acknowledged that their husband was best lay ever, but they cheated anyway because "their emotional needs" weren't being met, or because they felt "lonely".


Great questions, Rus. Definitely emotional. That's at the core even when the presenting issue is sex, money or some form of what one might call control. And the roots of the conflict predate the marriage. They go all the way back to each partner's childhood. There's an art and science to working through conflict and it's not easy. At least not until a couple learns how. Kind of like playing a musical instrument. Hard at first but then easier over time. 

Believe me when I say I figured all of this out the hard way. I'm divorced twice with at least a dozen failed relationships in my rear-view mirror. The family I came from was pretty messed up but I worked hard to learn and grow, both in my work and in my own life. At 47, I met the woman I'm married to now (11 years later) and things just get better and better for us. I brought my experience as a mediator and collaborative attorney. She brought her experience as a psychologist. And we have both continued to learn as we go. 

Marriage is challenging because everyone brings many needs. If we're not conscious, we tend to demand that others meet our needs without even understanding them ourselves. So when things aren't working, it's important to slow down and get introspective. To look at what's not working and to find the triggers, which are pretty much always in childhood. Then if each partner can speak about his/her needs in a way that invites understanding, the couple has a chance to get to know each other better and work through the conflict without toxic elements like blaming or shaming. 

As an example, my wife and I were at the ER last week with our son. We were both really stressed out. While we were waiting, she needed to take him to the bathroom. I knew where it was so I helped her find it. Once there, I held the door open and then said, "When you get inside, be sure to lock it". Because she was tired and stressed, she was not at her best and what I said triggered something so she shot back a rather sharp or pointed, "I know how to lock a door" or something to that effect. 

As I walked back to the room where we were waiting for the doctor, I had a chance to sit with the pain I felt at her response. I knew that my first impulse, which was to say something along the lines of "You're welcome" wouldn't be effective in terms of leading to mutual understanding or connection. I saw that her response triggered sadness in me because, as a child, I would often try to be helpful in my family and my intention was missed or misunderstood. There was a lot of shaming and blaming, which hurt. 

I knew that one way to address this would be to say something along these lines. "When we were at the bathroom, and I said to lock the door and you responded that you knew in a way that to me felt pointed, I felt hurt because I was trying to be helpful and had a need for appreciation. I'm wondering what was going on for you since you heard something different." I chose not to use that particular formula because we were too tired and anxious for that much processing. So I just jumped straight to the need. I said, "I've been sitting with the misstep we just had at the bathroom and realizing that it reminded me of how I felt as a child when I was trying to do something good and it was misunderstood". I knew that if I said it this way, with no criticism of her at all, but went straight to what was happening on my side, there would be nothing to push back at. She went right to what got triggered for her, also from childhood, a sense of not being trusted to know how to do anything. We reconnected. With each incident like this, we get to know each other better and have a better sense of where the other's triggers are. That allows us to both avoid them and also to be more understanding when one of us gets tweaked over something. 

Because we don't leave anything unresolved, nothing gets in the way of our desire to be physically intimate with one another. Sex becomes an act of kindness and generosity, each of us wanting to please the other, because we feel so close. When differences come up, we talk them through. It's a phenomenal way to do relationship because things just get better and better with time. But it does require a partner willing to be introspective and capable of doing so too. My sense is a lot of folks would think our model requires too much effort. There is effort but the payoff, in my view, makes it well worth it.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> I agree with you mostly... but the bolded implies your partner is going to tell you the truth, which is not always the case.


I agree. Getting to what's at the core requires self reflection and insight. As you can see from my response to Russ, immediately above, the approach to relationship that my wife and I use requires a willingness to really look at oneself. And to do so together. To examine one's own childhood wounds that result in adult triggers and invite the partner into that world. So that each of us can see what the other is up against. One has to be careful to avoid blame as that sort of approach never works.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> You also need to hear them and believe what they say (assuming it was true) and then try to fix it. As said above often they won’t want to tell you the real reasons so there needs to be enough trust there that they will tell you what is really going on.
> 
> It’s a lot easier to say or write that down as it is to do it.


Yes, definitely easier to talk about this approach than to do it. But it is possible. There are various techniques people can employ. One is Imago, the work of Harville Hendrix. Another is Non-Violent Communication (or NVC), the work of Marshall Rosenberg. There are other formulations too. They all essentially accomplish the same thing, though the approach can be a bit different from one to the next. Each is about cultivating curiosity and listening to understand. Each requires a willingness to avoid criticism (and a recognition of its toxicity). We also have to be willing to be real with each other. Stonewalling, like blame, destroys connection.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> yes, that was my wife's line of "defence" as well. I was "hounding" her. Remember: we were having sex twice a month at the most. Hounding her?


If I may, I'll share my thought. Yes, from where she stood, you were hounding her. She made clear she didn't have space for as much sex as you wanted or needed and it wasn't working for her. The thing is one has to get past the notion that there's a single "capital T" truth. Rather, each partner has a small t truth. From where you stood, there was a need for more connection and intimacy and a couple of times a month was not enough. Makes sense. Wouldn't be enough for most people. From her point of view, for whatever reason, the request seemed like too much. To really get what's that's about, one would have to ask with curiosity and listen with a real intention to understand.

Once each of you understood the other well enough to take the next step, which is to express some version of "You make sense" and validate the other's perspective, there's a chance of fixing the issue. If she said, "Even the once or twice a month is a stretch for me right now because I'm too tired and I don't feel connected to you. I do it for you, because you seem to need it, but it's hard for me because I don't want or need it", you might respond, "I'm hearing you say that you recognize that twice a month isn't much but that even that is hard for you because it's not a good experience for you. That we're too disconnected and your needs aren't being met. Did I get that right?" If she says you got it, the next step would be to say something along the lines of "You make sense. It makes sense to me that if you're feeling cut off from me and you're having sex because I'm wanting it, that would be really hard and not at all satisfying. I'm wanting to change this dynamic because I would never want our sex to be a burden to you. I hope we can find the root of the problem so it can be something that nourishes us both."

I don't know what the ultimate answer would be. A couple this alienated from each other might choose to separate. Perhaps a discussion like this helps them to part more amicably. Or maybe they figure out what's not working and renew their relationship. But it begins with a deep sort of mutual understanding. That has to be the first step. When people are making each other wrong, there's no path forward.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Parallax857 said:


> She brought her experience as a psychologist. *And we have both continued to learn as we go.*


Rather like Masters and Johnson lol?


Parallax857 said:


> My sense is a lot of folks would think our model requires too much effort. There is effort but *the payoff, in my view, makes it well worth it.*


A lot cheaper than writing checks for a divorce. And a lot less effort.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> Maybe it lies in the approach?
> There have been many times where I was indeed horny but my ex(s) would ruin it with their brute force approach.
> 
> View attachment 81697
> ...


Yeah I never ask, I just try physically. She usually knows I am interested when we are in bed, my hands are on her and I have an erection. I am pretty subtle about it


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Of course I do, or did anyway, they either disregard my needs or acknowledge them but end up prioritising theirs over mine, which is normal.
> 
> Example -> my need for foreplay/tease is disregarded because why does she have to put in the effort when other men are ready to go just looking at her, and even when acknowledged, it's not enough as eventually their needs overcome their patience and instead of sexual tension resulting in wild sex it results in frustration and fights.
> 
> ...


What you describe sounds really painful. Not getting your needs met when you try to communicate and ultimately just giving up on the notion that they'll ever be met. Getting compared to other men and put down, either for needing more foreplay or for not being as well endowed sounds incredibly painful. My heart goes out to you, brother.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Parallax857 said:


> If I may, I'll share my thought. Yes, from where she stood, you were hounding her. She made clear she didn't have space for as much sex as you wanted or needed and it wasn't working for her. The thing is one has to get past the notion that there's a single "capital T" truth. Rather, each partner has a small t truth. From where you stood, there was a need for more connection and intimacy and a couple of times a month was not enough. Makes sense. Wouldn't be enough for most people. From her point of view, for whatever reason, the request seemed like too much. To really get what's that's about, one would have to ask with curiosity and listen with a real intention to understand.
> 
> Once each of you understood the other well enough to take the next step, which is to express some version of "You make sense" and validate the other's perspective, there's a chance of fixing the issue. If she said, "Even the once or twice a month is a stretch for me right now because I'm too tired and I don't feel connected to you. I do it for you, because you seem to need it, but it's hard for me because I don't want or need it", you might respond, "I'm hearing you say that you recognize that twice a month isn't much but that even that is hard for you because it's not a good experience for you. That we're too disconnected and your needs aren't being met. Did I get that right?" If she says you got it, the next step would be to say something along the lines of "You make sense. It makes sense to me that if you're feeling cut off from me and you're having sex because I'm wanting it, that would be really hard and not at all satisfying. I'm wanting to change this dynamic because I would never want our sex to be a burden to you. I hope we can find the root of the problem so it can be something that nourishes us both."
> 
> I don't know what the ultimate answer would be. A couple this alienated from each other might choose to separate. Perhaps a discussion like this helps them to part more amicably. Or maybe they figure out what's not working and renew their relationship. But it begins with a deep sort of mutual understanding. That has to be the first step. When people are making each other wrong, there's no path forward.


This won't work in relationships in which one party isn't sexually interested in their partner or in which one party isn't interested in sex, period.

Talking it to death and analyzing it to death aren't going to make desire appear for someone you aren't attracted to nor cure asexuality.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

Rus47 said:


> Rather like Masters and Johnson lol?
> 
> A lot cheaper than writing checks for a divorce. And a lot less effort.


That's cute, the Masters and Johnson line, though I think of them (rightly or wrongly) as being more about the mechanics of physical arousal than touching into any focus on emotional needs. Their work on issues like the g-spot, vaginal versus clitoral orgasm and the like was important and necessary. But at the end of the day, those things are much easier to learn than developing emotional literacy. 

I'm with you 100% on the fact that the effort to create and nurture healthy relationship pays off in countless ways and is ultimately so much better than drifting toward either unsatisfying long term relationship or divorce. Sadly, most people wind up either in a long term accommodation of some sort or the relationship dies. We have very little understanding in our culture of what it takes to create great long term marriages.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Yeah I never ask, I just try physically. She usually knows I am interested when we are in bed, my hands are on her and I have an erection. I am pretty subtle about it


In reality, any female knows that nearly any male ( with a few exceptions ) is "ready to roll" at essentially any time. It is part of the dynamic women instinctively know. Men are always "interested" unless we are in a coma. And if not, the women begin thinking we aren't attracted to them, which causes more issues. My wife laughs about it, commenting to me "that's the male animal in there". I will ask how she knows and she will laugh and say "there is "something" poking me".

So yes, any "asking" is rather redundant. I have never in my life "asked", just start romancing, she knows full well what is on the agenda. If the wife isn't in the mood, it will be a gentle "can we get together later?"

I will grant that this is OUR dynamic, and maybe doesn't fly with everyone. Evidently there are women who see their husbands pursuing them as gross or objectionable "all you ever think about is sex". Well, if he isn't ever getting any then for sure that IS what he is thinking about 24x7.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

Livvie said:


> This won't work in relationships in which one party isn't sexually interested in their partner or in which one party isn't interested in sex, period.
> 
> Talking it to death and analyzing it to death aren't going to make desire appear for someone you aren't attracted to nor cure asexuality.


I believe there are people who are sexually incompatible. For example, if one is married to someone who is secretly asexual or homosexual. I just wouldn't want to jump to that conclusion too quickly. If the relationship had once been sexually satisfying to both partners, the question becomes what has changed. Usually, it's small hurts that have built up over time and created a wall. If the relationship never really worked sexually, then there's a real question as to whether a couple can get there together. But to find out, they'd have to first create deep emotional intimacy. When that's there, a lot of other stuff can get worked through because each is then wanting to satisfy the other (rather than focused on getting his/her own needs met). That being said, yes. I could never be sexually satisfied with someone I'm not at all attracted to. I couldn't, for instance, sleep with another man. I couldn't sleep with a woman I didn't find appealing. I couldn't sleep with a woman I found physically attractive if she seemed unkind or incapable of emotional connection. These examples are mine but everyone has their own likes and dislikes and a certain amount of mutual attraction needs to be present before chemistry can occur.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> What your wife knows about you is that if she doesn't care about your sexual needs, YOU will not accept excuses and she may lose her marriage to you.


Yeah that!

Last week she came to bed one night and banged the snot out of me. I didn’t wake up at my normal time, way way later. She got up and I was still in bed and she asked what happened? I said, well you put me down! She then said, “Me too, we both needed that.”

I was like damn. She is getting it!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> I think this thread has run its course. Key takeaways:
> 
> 
> @Personal and @ConanHub are so studly they never, ever have sexual problems.


Well, I won't argue with an obviously true statement like this!😆


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Parallax857 said:


> What you describe sounds really painful. Not getting your needs met when you try to communicate and ultimately just giving up on the notion that they'll ever be met. Getting compared to other men and put down, either for needing more foreplay or for not being as well endowed sounds incredibly painful. My heart goes out to you, brother.


With ex-GF there was a lot of good so the duty sex I compromised with. And there were moments of respite though, wasn't all bad. With the comparisons it wasn't my willy that was compared, it was my libido, effort and just about everything else that served to invalidate my needs (because other guys don't have my 'problems') and made me feel constantly never good enough.

At this point, I'm used to not feeling good enough by now 

Ex-wife's comparison of my willy with other men wasn't a problem, either than that one instance, unlike ex-GF, she never once compared me with another man. At least not to my face, she had more respect I guess.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Rus47 said:


> In reality, any female knows that nearly any male ( with a few exceptions ) is "ready to roll" at essentially any time. It is part of the dynamic women instinctively know. Men are always "interested" unless we are in a coma. And if not, the women begin thinking we aren't attracted to them, which causes more issues. My wife laughs about it, commenting to me "that's the male animal in there". I will ask how she knows and she will laugh and say "there is "something" poking me".


If I'm an exception, no wonder I am f---ed


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Well, I won't argue with an obviously true statement like this!😆


Lolol!!!!! Oh, what a PERFECT response!!!!! Lol!!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Parallax857 said:


> What's usually behind a lack of sex, in my experience, is poor communication. It all starts with a four letter word for intercourse -- "T A L K".


I'm suspicious of that. I think a lot us of who are / were in sexless marriages (including myself) know exactly what's going on. It's the LD not wanting to use limited time and energy nurturing a sex drive for reasons unrelated to the HD. This goes double if there are health issues or trauma.

Look at the Dead Bedroom Subreddit and other sites discussing the same. It's a common story. Ladies don't desire it and don't agree with investing effort to fix it. And there is resentment that sex is expected.

Combine that with knowing when your spouse doesn't care, there is good reason to not pursue it and move on.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

DTO said:


> I'm suspicious of that. I think a lot us of who are / were in sexless marriages (including myself) know exactly what's going on. It's the LD not wanting to use limited time and energy nurturing a sex drive for reasons unrelated to the HD. This goes double if there are health issues or trauma.
> 
> Look at the Dead Bedroom Subreddit and other sites discussing the same. It's a common story. Ladies don't desire it and don't agree with investing effort to fix it. And there is resentment that sex is expected.
> 
> Combine that with knowing when your spouse doesn't care, there is good reason to not pursue it and move on.


I think your last statement hits the nail on the head. Knowing that your spouse doesn't care leaves one not interested in pleasing them. That's the core of a communication problem. People give up on the relationship, assuming their needs will never be met. This happens because communication has broken down. 

Consider that communication goes beyond language. It includes empathy and understanding. A lot of marriages end when partners experience that their needs don't matter to the spouse. Others stick together in what we might call a complex accommodation. But this is an oversimplification because it's not black and white. There can be ways in which one gets his/her needs met and other ways in which one has given up. People stay together or break up for a complex variety of reasons. When couples work is effective, it helps the parties see through each other's eyes. When each gets what the world looks like to the other and sees what the other is up against, then there's a chance their intimacy can deepen and the relationship can improve. But it requires a willingness on the part of both partners to speak their own truth and listen with openness and curiosity when the other partner speaks his/her truth. Not everyone is interested in that sort of work and not everyone is capable.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

Parallax857 said:


> Consider that communication goes beyond language.


I know you understand this, but I'm going to expound upon this just a bit.

People shouldn't just consider that communication goes beyond language because 100% it DOES go beyond language.

There are many ways to communicate besides language.

Body language.

Facial expressions.

Both of those encompass a heck of a lot. A person might not turn to look at you when you are talking to them. They might not look up as they sit on the couch, maybe they keep looking at their phone etc.

They might ball their hands up into a fist while standing there with you, by you.

They might roll their eyes. They might sneer. They might hang their mouth open a little (an ex of mine always did that when he was upset, it was a tell and I knew every time because of this).

Sometimes people just walk off, run away, get into a car and leave.

Some people stonewall, give the silent treatment (for days and days). Some people just begin to laugh at you when you are trying to have an honest, real, serious discussion.

And on and on it goes. Communication goes way beyond language. I just touched the tip of the iceberg with this and again, I know you realize this. I just want to really hammer it home.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Parallax857 said:


> If I may, I'll share my thought. Yes, from where she stood, you were hounding her. She made clear she didn't have space for as much sex as you wanted or needed and it wasn't working for her. The thing is one has to get past the notion that there's a single "capital T" truth. Rather, each partner has a small t truth. From where you stood, there was a need for more connection and intimacy and a couple of times a month was not enough. Makes sense. Wouldn't be enough for most people. From her point of view, for whatever reason, the request seemed like too much. To really get what's that's about, one would have to ask with curiosity and listen with a real intention to understand.
> 
> Once each of you understood the other well enough to take the next step, which is to express some version of "You make sense" and validate the other's perspective, there's a chance of fixing the issue. If she said, "Even the once or twice a month is a stretch for me right now because I'm too tired and I don't feel connected to you. I do it for you, because you seem to need it, but it's hard for me because I don't want or need it", you might respond, "I'm hearing you say that you recognize that twice a month isn't much but that even that is hard for you because it's not a good experience for you. That we're too disconnected and your needs aren't being met. Did I get that right?" If she says you got it, the next step would be to say something along the lines of "You make sense. It makes sense to me that if you're feeling cut off from me and you're having sex because I'm wanting it, that would be really hard and not at all satisfying. I'm wanting to change this dynamic because I would never want our sex to be a burden to you. I hope we can find the root of the problem so it can be something that nourishes us both."
> 
> I don't know what the ultimate answer would be. A couple this alienated from each other might choose to separate. Perhaps a discussion like this helps them to part more amicably. Or maybe they figure out what's not working and renew their relationship. But it begins with a deep sort of mutual understanding. That has to be the first step. When people are making each other wrong, there's no path forward.


I agree again with you in general, but both partners need to be able to talk about it. My wife couldn't. She felt attacked and withdrew in her shell, as a defence mechanism. So massive resentment built up on both sides.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Parallax857 said:


> I think your last statement hits the nail on the head. Knowing that your spouse doesn't care leaves one not interested in pleasing them. That's the core of a communication problem. *People give up on the relationship, assuming their needs will never be met. This happens because communication has broken down.*
> 
> Consider that communication goes beyond language. It includes empathy and understanding. A lot of marriages end when partners experience that their needs don't matter to the spouse. Others stick together in what we might call a complex accommodation. But this is an oversimplification because it's not black and white. There can be ways in which one gets his/her needs met and other ways in which one has given up. People stay together or break up for a complex variety of reasons. When couples work is effective, it helps the parties see through each other's eyes. When each gets what the world looks like to the other and sees what the other is up against, then there's a chance their intimacy can deepen and the relationship can improve. But it requires a willingness on the part of both partners to speak their own truth and listen with openness and curiosity when the other partner speaks his/her truth. Not everyone is interested in that sort of work and not everyone is capable.


If a partner continually, over months and months, refuses to care about, acknowledge, honor, or meet their partner's needs, at what point does it stop being considered an assumption that they do not care and you will never have your needs met if you remain with this person as a partner?

At what point are you just beating a dead horse?

All your ideas are fantastic and warm and loving and build connection. 

But they simply DO NOT WORK when you are with a person who is coldly selfish and uncaring towards you. 
You can be as introspective and philosophical as you want to be about it, but the bottom line is, you cannot force someone to stop being selfish and to care about how you feel.

Consider yourself lucky that you aren't facing that in your marriage, and that your ability to think positively about your partner's motives isn't hampered by feeling lonely and unwanted and invisible with the person who promised to love and care for you.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Parallax857 said:


> I think your last statement hits the nail on the head. Knowing that your spouse doesn't care leaves one not interested in pleasing them. That's the core of a communication problem. People give up on the relationship, assuming their needs will never be met. This happens because communication has broken down.
> 
> Consider that communication goes beyond language. It includes empathy and understanding. A lot of marriages end when partners experience that their needs don't matter to the spouse. Others stick together in what we might call a complex accommodation. But this is an oversimplification because it's not black and white. There can be ways in which one gets his/her needs met and other ways in which one has given up. People stay together or break up for a complex variety of reasons. When couples work is effective, it helps the parties see through each other's eyes. When each gets what the world looks like to the other and sees what the other is up against, then there's a chance their intimacy can deepen and the relationship can improve. But it requires a willingness on the part of both partners to speak their own truth and listen with openness and curiosity when the other partner speaks his/her truth. Not everyone is interested in that sort of work and not everyone is capable.


This is not necessarily true. People don't always just assume their needs won't be met because of poor communication. Sometimes the communication is good and you know needs won't be met.

My ex explicitly told me my job was to take care of her and disagreed when I said a marriage should be about two people taking care of each other.

Regarding sex, she one time initiated foreplay on me and we had a good time. Next day she said she didn't like it so it wouldn't happen again. She also said that if I was a diligent husband she would "do something" with me, "once in a while". There you have it - great communication about what will be provided (infrequent intercourse) and zero chance my needs will be met.

There's other non-sex stuff, but it points to the same premise: handling business and her happiness was my job and I needed to put her above myself.

She no doubt felt the same way. She knew her needs would go unmet, regardless of how unreasonable those seem to most of us. She needed me to graciously accept a crap sex life even though she promised to fulfill me. She knew her failure to work on intimacy diminished her in my eyes and that while I'd do anything for our kids she'd not get more than she provided.

I refused to accept she was more deserving than me, and she refused to accept she wasn't. No hope but good communication.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> If a partner continually, over months and months, refuses to care about, acknowledge, honor, or meet their partner's needs, at what point does it stop being considered an assumption that they do not care and you will never have your needs met if you remain with this person as a partner?


I am curious how far you go with this. I _think_ you take this to a much further extreme than most. Could your partner have a sexual need that you would refuse to meet? Is there ever a line where you, a partner who wants to be giving, is unwilling to cross? I'll assume we're not being hyperbolic here, so no need to consider things like illegal activity or harming another. But there are lots of truly out-there kinks that almost everyone considers a bridge too far. So if such a line exists, are we not just arguing about where it is drawn?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> I am curious how far you go with this. I _think_ you take this to a much further extreme than most. Could your partner have a sexual need that you would refuse to meet? Is there ever a line where you, a partner who wants to be giving, is unwilling to cross? I'll assume we're not being hyperbolic here, so no need to consider things like illegal activity or harming another. But there are lots of truly out-there kinks that almost everyone considers a bridge too far. So if such a line exists, are we not just arguing about where it is drawn?


Are you asking ME specifically...? Or just stating a general line of thinking?

Because if you are specifically asking me, I would say first that you are being much too detailed in what you are reading into my meaning and expectations of what my sexual needs are.

But to answer your question, YES we are arguing where the line is drawn (or I am), to determine where sexual compatibility can overlap.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Are you asking ME specifically...? Or just stating a general line of thinking?
> 
> Because if you are specifically asking me, I would say first that you are being much too detailed in what you are reading into my meaning and expectations of what my sexual needs are.
> 
> But to answer your question, YES we are arguing where the line is drawn (or I am), to determine where sexual compatibility can overlap.


Yes, I am asking you personally. You have taken the line that not meeting your SOs needs is uncaring, so I am looking for clarification on what that really means in practice. Specifically, under what conditions is it acceptable to say no to your partner's needs? I think we agree that 100% compatibility is probably a pipe dream for almost all groups with more than one member - so when compromises are being made, when is it OK to say no?


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> I agree again with you in general, but both partners need to be able to talk about it. My wife couldn't. She felt attacked and withdrew in her shell, as a defence mechanism.



Exactly.

Everyone hears, knows and understands that communication is so important in relationships (all relationships, not just romantic ones) yet so many don't communicate.

Let me be clear, just because one communicates with a partner, it does not mean we'll get our way. Life and relationships do not work like that.

However, partners should ALWAYS listen to their partners and they should always be able to talk to them to, whatever the topic is.

Again, just because we communicate with our partners, it doesn't mean we'll get what we want.

But, if a partner will not engage on a topic or certain topics, that's an even bigger issue in and of itself.

We should always know that we may go to our partner and that we will be heard, listened to, empathized with even if they can't do something that we want or are requesting.

I'm not saying I'm perfect and that I've always done this, as I haven't. I'm older know, I've gained experience, knowledge, picked up some wisdom along the way. I wasn't good at this in my first marriage and I shut many topics down, hard, with my first husband.

I do know I was wrong for doing that back then. My first husband had to walk on eggshells around me and in some ways he was right. I just couldn't or wouldn't see that back then.

We all make mistakes, I did, my first husband did, but we should always be trying to learn, to improve.

Sadly, many don't do this on their own until the sheet hits the fan as they say and then they're all about working on something or trying or improving.

We all need to be more proactive.

There is so much good info out there from so many great authors, therapists, Ph. D.'s, so many vids, podcasts and such.

People practice so many things, sports, gaming, whatever hobbies they have.

They should "practice" and work on being a better person themselves and work on their relationships regularly even when things are going great. No, we don't have to spend 10 hours on this each week, I think you all get my point though.

It took me too long to get to this point myself. I'm harping on this mainly for the younger folks reading this.

Work on and invest in yourselves, your friends, family, romantic partners and yourself will all be glad you did.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> Yes, I am asking you personally. You have taken the line that not meeting your SOs needs is uncaring, so I am looking for clarification on what that really means in practice. Specifically, under what conditions is it acceptable to say no to your partner's needs? I think we agree that 100% compatibility is probably a pipe dream for almost all groups with more than one member - so when compromises are being made, when is it OK to say no?


It's ALWAYS ok to say No...but that will have consequences. 
As for where is the line...I don't know. I never reached that line with either partner I had.

But for an example, when I found out my STBX was watching porn and masturbating (and uninterested in and unable to perform with me), I was VERY HURT. I considered porn to be an insult to me and us, especially because he was rejecting me because he enjoyed the porn and masturbating more than he did being with me. It was devastating.

But I loved him and wanted to meet his sexual needs, even if I didn't get everything I wanted. So I tried to overcome MY expectations of what excited him and what he wanted sexually, and I ended up only asking him to either include me somehow (I asked if I could do any of the things he liked in the porn he watched), or only look at porn and masturbate after he had been with me for our weekly sex time (which was our compromise, because I wanted sex daily and he wanted it 2x a month or less). 

I wanted to support him and HIS sexuality, even if it meant that I didn't get what I wanted. Even if I had to compromise. So I let go of the porn issue and hoped that he would compromise on his end...but that didn't happen. Our marriage ended several years later when he decided he didn't want sex with me at all and wouldn't discuss it. And I was tired of trying to force him to care about how lonely, unwanted, and unloved I felt. I was tired of trying to force him to care or even SEE that I had sexual needs as well.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> Yes, I am asking you personally. You have taken the line that not meeting your SOs needs is uncaring, so I am looking for clarification on what that really means in practice. Specifically, under what conditions is it acceptable to say no to your partner's needs? I think we agree that 100% compatibility is probably a pipe dream for almost all groups with more than one member - so when compromises are being made, when is it OK to say no?


I also want to add....if you remember my response a few pages back...I also am dedicated to meeting my partner's other needs and wants to the best of my ability. I just don't differentiate and create a hierarchy of needs, placing sex at the bottom.

ALL needs should be cared about and tended to in a loving partnership.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

Cletus said:


> Yes, I am asking you personally. You have taken the line that not meeting your SOs needs is uncaring, so I am looking for clarification on what that really means in practice. Specifically, under what conditions is it acceptable to say no to your partner's needs? I think we agree that 100% compatibility is probably a pipe dream for almost all groups with more than one member - so when compromises are being made, when is it OK to say no?


Cletus,

You weren't asking me this as I'm a different poster, but here is my two cents on this.

I will meet my partners need for sex, but I will not do anything and everything sexually and he won't do that to me either.

See, he and I speak about this, fairly regularly actually.

We have 3 main categories when it comes to sex.

The first are things we both like to do, want to do, have done to us and that we do often while having sex with each other.

The second category are things we are both OK with doing from time to time, but not each time, not a lot.

The third category are things that are hard no's for each us sexually.

We communicate well, we listen to each other, we both bring up anything with each other regarding this and as time has gone on (the decades as I'm in my 50's), things have changed. I've had things in category 3 that I refused to and have moved them into category 2, not because he badgered me, but because I've grown, changed, become more confident in myself, more accepting of certain things, I've been able to let go of certain thoughts about things.

Fewer things are taboo to me now than they were when I was a teen and in my 20's (I was a prude back then honestly).

One may meet their partners needs without having to do anything and everything for them or with them.

Some don't want to wife swap or become a swinger or participate in golden showers and on and on and that's OK. Partners just need to discuss things and come to an agreement.

Meeting our partners needs, both in and out of the bedroom, does not just me rolling over and doing anything and everything they want us to do.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> Meeting our partners needs, both in and out of the bedroom, does not just me rolling over and doing anything and everything they want us to do.


That's the position that I am arguing for too. That if we have a need that is on our partner's hard-no list, we have the option of deciding it's not a true need after all or abandoning the relationship. That if we leave justifying it as an uncaring partner is only valid when they have made it abundantly clear that their reluctance comes from a place of true selfishness. Someone may care deeply about our happiness, but using that as a weapon sounds a lot like the high school line "If you loved me, you would do it". 

This site is extraordinarily bullish on personal boundaries. What boundary could be more personal than what you find acceptable and what you find unacceptable in the bedroom? 

I'd Do Anything For Love (But I Won't Do That)


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> I agree again with you in general, but both partners need to be able to talk about it. My wife couldn't. She felt attacked and withdrew in her shell, as a defence mechanism. So massive resentment built up on both sides.


Sounds totally unworkable. One great way to see if a relationship has legs is to attend an Imago workshop together. If the partner is unwilling or unable to engage in the intimacy exercises, chances are the marriage will be difficult if not entirely unworkable. There are people who simply can't do intimate relationship in a healthy way. I've had girlfriends like that and it was true of my first wife too. At this point, I feel bad for them.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> If a partner continually, over months and months, refuses to care about, acknowledge, honor, or meet their partner's needs, at what point does it stop being considered an assumption that they do not care and you will never have your needs met if you remain with this person as a partner?
> 
> At what point are you just beating a dead horse?
> 
> ...


If you're saying some relationships can't be resolved, I agree. I'm not saying anything different. But one can't know without trying. People are so quick to assume the worst, to assume bad motives, without taking the time or making the effort to see if they can understand the partner's point of view. If both people are willing and enable to engage in that kind of exercise, all things are possible. If one is unwilling or unable, then I agree that it's usually best to move on. I say "usually" because there may be circumstances where people feel compelled to stay together though the situation is less than satisfying. For example, if there is a child with special needs who would suffer at this particular stage of his/her development. That said, I wouldn't be a divorce attorney if I didn't believe that divorce was sometimes the best answer.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Everyone hears, knows and understands that communication is so important in relationships (all relationships, not just romantic ones) yet so many don't communicate.
> 
> ...


Beautifully said. I'll add that those who invest in developing relationship skills really can't go wrong because, if the current relationship ultimately fails, one carries their own personal growth and their shiny new relationship skills with them where they can pay dividends in their next relationship. This is true for both me and my wife. I'm divorced twice and have lots of failed relationships in my past. She's had her share too. Since coming together, we've shared notes and learned from each other. The result is we've had this great relationship for 11 years. Took me a long time to get here. I met her at 47. It's not unusual for people to not be ready to do relationship well upon entry into the adult world. Few of us had it modeled for us and God knows these skills are not taught in schools or the workforce.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> It's ALWAYS ok to say No...but that will have consequences.
> As for where is the line...I don't know. I never reached that line with either partner I had.
> 
> But for an example, when I found out my STBX was watching porn and masturbating (and uninterested in and unable to perform with me), I was VERY HURT. I considered porn to be an insult to me and us, especially because he was rejecting me because he enjoyed the porn and masturbating more than he did being with me. It was devastating.
> ...


What you describe, Lisa, sounds really unworkable. I think there are ways for people to incorporate porn into their sex lives (assuming both are willing) but it has to be done in a way that meets both partners' needs. I've seen situations where one partner has more sex drive than the other and they agree that the hornier partner can supplement through porn and masturbation. I've seen situations where the partners watch porn together to supplement their sex life. That's not what your describing. Sounds like you set your needs aside and allowed your boundaries to get rolled over. That never works. 

There are people who are simply not ok with porn, for themselves or their partner. If that's the case, they need to resolve the difference in sex drive somehow. I see a lot of people who choose open relationship but I've never seen that work. If there are children, I'd be particularly concerned about that approach because I see it as somewhat reckless and the children are the ones who pay the biggest price when a marriage fails. But if it can work for a particular couple, then I'd be alright with it. I'd never want that in my own marriage. 

My wife and I have had to work through sexual issues and we're still working on some of them. As an example, I'm really attracted to breasts and find touching them leaves me feeling closer and more intimate. When we first met, she had a wall around her breasts. Probably due to earlier trauma with men who didn't care for her and she came away feeling used. We had to walk through that together. Now, that rarely comes up for her and, when it does, I'll move my hands somewhere else. It used to hurt my feelings when she pulled my hands away but now it rarely does and when it happens I know it's not about me. 

At this stage we're working through other stuff. As I've gotten older and started taking certain medications, I still have no problem getting and maintaining erections but it's much harder for me to come. She'll have an orgasm and then try to hang in there for me but that's the point at which I'd rather just stop because it doesn't work to keep going. I can feel that her heart is totally with me but her libido drops off to zero. She's not multi-orgasmic and I don't think she can change that. We're trying to find ways to help me orgasm more easily (if possible). But whatever happens, we'll make the best of it. We approach these things as a team and we'll find a way forward. 

She knows that I can still orgasm when I masturbate so perhaps the end point will be that she comes and then holds me while I finish myself off. Or maybe I'm alright about not reaching orgasm. Or maybe we find a way to get there together. One way or another, there's a way as long as our hearts are connected. That's the core of sexuality. Sex arises from intimacy. Sex arises from trust and love. That's the foundation.


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## Parallax857 (May 15, 2012)

Cletus said:


> That's the position that I am arguing for too. That if we have a need that is on our partner's hard-no list, we have the option of deciding it's not a true need after all or abandoning the relationship. That if we leave justifying it as an uncaring partner is only valid when they have made it abundantly clear that their reluctance comes from a place of true selfishness. Someone may care deeply about our happiness, but using that as a weapon sounds a lot like the high school line "If you loved me, you would do it".
> 
> This site is extraordinarily bullish on personal boundaries. What boundary could be more personal than what you find acceptable and what you find unacceptable in the bedroom?
> 
> I'd Do Anything For Love (But I Won't Do That)


I agree that it's healthy for partners to have boundaries. If the love, trust and intimacy are strong there's usually a way forward together. I won't say always, though. Perhaps one partner feels the need for an open relationship and the other is simply not ok with it. That might be a difference that can't be resolved. 

My wife has expressed a willingness to do a certain type of sex play that I'm not comfortable with. She's done it in a sex positive way in the past. I've done it too and, to get there, I turned into an animal. I'm glad I've done it but it's not something I want to do again. She's fine with that. It's not super important to her. Just something that she thought might be fun and nice. 

I've recently told her about something that once upon a time brought me to the most extreme sexual pleasure I can recall. I asked her to think about whether she'd want to try it. We left it as something she'll sit with. If she were to say no, it's not a deal breaker for me. I'll share, though, that it was hard to ask. It was hard to be that vulnerable and I told her so. That trusting her with this information was not easy and I asked her not to respond in any way that might come across as belittling or uncaring. She understood and was very kind. Just sharing this event from my past left us feeling closer and more intimate. If she wants to engage in that activity and it works, it could solve the thing I mentioned above (having trouble reaching orgasm). Or not. If she is not comfortable trying it, I'll be fine. I wouldn't want to engage in something that didn't work for her. That wouldn't feel right.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> Role playing was off-putting to me when I was younger. I was kind of a prude for a long time honestly. It took me a long time to be comfortable spreading my wings sexually and I never got there with my first husband, not even close.
> 
> I love role playing now though.


Esther Perel recommends role playing. I think in particular she recommends scenarios that emulate the shadow of a third partner as this causes one's competitive instincts to kick into gear. An example would be you play the role of one of his first girlfriends that he still fantasizes about, or he plays the role of an old boyfriend you fantasize about here and there. You each come up with a script and procure any props needed to make that happen. 

Obviously the one role playing a past partner is going to know how to enhance the experience and rewrite that memory if done right out of jealousy.


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