# Married Men Who Bang Hookers & The Women Who Love Them



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

So, I had to recuse myself from a thread because I could not wrap my mind around the thought process involved in thinking a poster's marriage was great other than the fact Mr. Wonderful was banging hookers and not touching her with a 10-foot pole.

Ok, so some folks have open marriages and swing, but both parties are getting sex somehow. I could understand if she was totally asexual/ill and allowed him to meet his needs elsewhere, I've heard of people who do that sort of thing where I'm from. What I can't understand is why in this day and age a woman would even want to bother with a man like that?

For full disclosure purposes, I don't approve of cheating, having a serial cheating father and exH who also preferred to screw another woman and not touch me. Also, I am disgusted by the thought of sharing germs from a philandering partner, his partners, their partners, etc. I sure as heck wouldn't want to kiss that person's mouth, much less anything else for fear of catching something. 

Sure you can practice safe sex and show test results, but those results are only good for that moment in time. So many STI's have long incubation periods. What if eventually you get an STI? Especially a lifelong or untreatable one. Do people really not care about these things or do I have a serious bias against catching cooties? 

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts, especially after seeing some bits of absolutely absurd, bordering on voyeuristic advice given to this unusual young woman.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Yuck


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Holy bottom feeders!

One, I think men who buy women are less respectable than a STD.

Two, no I can't comprehend a woman putting up with that pathetic of a man.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Holy bottom feeders!
> 
> One, I think men who buy women are less respectable than a STD.
> 
> Two, no I can't comprehend a woman putting up with that pathetic of a man.


Dude, you should visit the original thread. Some TAM regulars are giving this woman advice on how to act like a prostitute to inveigle her degenerate turd of a husband to screw her too/instead.

ETA:
And to invite his favorite Prossy to show her how to bang him.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TXTrini said:


> So, I had to recuse myself from a thread because I could not wrap my mind around the thought process involved in thinking a poster's marriage was great other than the fact Mr. Wonderful was banging hookers and not touching her with a 10-foot pole.
> 
> Ok, so some folks have open marriages and swing, but both parties are getting sex somehow. I could understand if she was totally asexual/ill and allowed him to meet his needs elsewhere, I've heard of people who do that sort of thing where I'm from. What I can't understand is why in this day and age a woman would even want to bother with a man like that?
> 
> ...


I am totally 100% with you on that bizarre thread and some of the answers given.
A marriage where one spouse totally deprives the other of sex yet constantly watches porn and even has sex with multiple prostitutes is as far from a good marriage as you can really get. The husband's behaviour is as far from loving and respectful as you can get as well.
Unbelievable that to some that is acceptable behaviour. That she should apparently encourage his behaviour by watching the porn as well and even asking one of his prostitutes to give her advice is just astounding. Bizarre.
To think that sex with prostitutes isn't cheating is also bizarre. Of course it is. In fact for many it's far worse than just having one sexual partner as it's many partners and the risks of STDs is higher as well.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Holy bottom feeders!
> 
> One, I think men who buy women are less respectable than a STD.
> 
> Two, no I can't comprehend a woman putting up with that pathetic of a man.


Not just putting up with but claiming it's not cheating. Also singing his praises and claiming that he is a lovely man.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> ETA:
> And to invite his favorite Prossy to show her how to bang him.


I approve of your word. Prossy. 😂


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I am totally 100% with you on that bizarre thread and some of the answers given.
> A marriage where one spouse totally deprives the other of sex yet constantly watches porn and even has sex with multiple prostitutes is as far from a good marriage as you can really get. The husband's behaviour is as far from loving and respectful as you can get as well.
> Unbelievable that to some that is acceptable behaviour. That she should apparently encourage his behaviour by watching the porn as well and even asking one of his prostitutes to give her advice is just astounding. Bizarre.
> To think that sex with prostitutes isn't cheating is also bizarre. Of course it is. In fact for many it's far worse than just having one sexual partner as it's many partners and the risks of STDs is higher as well.


Thank you,
I was wondering if I stepped into Fetlife.com and not talkaboutmarriage.com for a moment, it was completely unreal.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> Thank you,
> I was wondering if I stepped into Fetlife.com and not talkaboutmarriage.com for a moment, it was completely unreal.


I had to take a shower after finishing my last post. I think I need some Ajax and a Brillo pad should I go back.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TXTrini said:


> Thank you,
> I was wondering if I stepped into Fetlife.com and not talkaboutmarriage.com for a moment, it was completely unreal.


The sadest part is that this poor lady thinks his behaviour is all her fault when it's all down to him. ☹


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> The sadest part is that this poor lady thinks his behaviour is all her fault when it's all down to him. ☹


I couldn't believe what I was reading. Sadly I think she needs mental help, assuming that's a real situation.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TXTrini said:


> I couldn't believe what I was reading. Sadly I think she needs mental help, assuming that's a real situation.


Its tragic. Reminds me of a wife whose husband beats her and she says that it's her fault because she isn't a good enough wife.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> Ok, so some folks have open marriages and swing, but both parties are getting sex somehow. I could understand if she was totally asexual/ill and allowed him to meet his needs elsewhere,* I've heard of people who do that sort of thing where I'm from. What I can't understand is why in this day and age a woman would even want to bother with a man like that?*


If she has zero interest in sex, either with him, or anyone else, and she is getting all her other needs met.....That's the best reasoning I can come up with...

My aunt had that type of arrangement...He was an immigrant from a country that is known for men having multiple women...He didn't even hide it...She loved him, and was able to lead a pretty opulent lifestyle, so I imagine that was enough to satisfy her needs.. Perhaps for others there are a variety of reasons..who knows??

"every form of refuge has it's price".....?...I dunno..

* I'll review the other thread and post back later when I have more time* 😉


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

hamadryad said:


> If she has zero interest in sex, either with him, or anyone else, and she is getting all her other needs met.....That's the best reasoning I can come up with...
> 
> My aunt had that type of arrangement...He was an immigrant from a country that is known for men having multiple women...He didn't even hide it...She loved him, and was able to lead a pretty opulent lifestyle, so I imagine that was enough to satisfy her needs.. Perhaps for others there are a variety of reasons..who knows??
> 
> ...


Thats not the case here.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TXTrini said:


> Dude, you should visit the original thread. Some TAM regulars are giving this woman advice on how to act like a prostitute to inveigle her degenerate turd of a husband to screw her too/instead.
> 
> ETA:
> And to invite his favorite Prossy to show her how to bang him.


Maybe she should become her own prossy entrepreneur and then he could be one of her many customers?

What the hell right??? 😵‍💫


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

QuietRiot said:


> I approve of your word. Prossy. 😂


Prossy is good.

Prissy might be phonetically better sounding, but, it may be a wide and deep lie for these gals.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

TXTrini said:


> I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.....















TXTrini said:


> * Do people really not care about these things* or do I have a serious bias against catching cooties?


No, they don't. The drive to get ones penis wet, even for a few minutes, seems to make people do incredibly stupid and disgusting things.....(and you MIGHT be a germaphobe, not that there's anything wrong with that)


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

hamadryad said:


> If she has zero interest in sex, either with him, or anyone else, and she is getting all her other needs met.....That's the best reasoning I can come up with...
> 
> My aunt had that type of arrangement...He was an immigrant from a country that is known for men having multiple women...He didn't even hide it...She loved him, and was able to lead a pretty opulent lifestyle, so I imagine that was enough to satisfy her needs.. Perhaps for others there are a variety of reasons..who knows??
> 
> ...


I agree. First I am pro-marriage (my definition) and think that cheating is a bad idea.

I think that there are really at least three separate concepts being discussed by the OP to this thread.

First, topic is what does a "marriage" look like? For some one of the keys to a successful marriage is monogomy. As been pointed out monogamy is not a universally held concept. Some have open marriages, some have what is not called "ethical monogamy." Personally, I like the concept of monogomy, as it makes genealogical research so much easier. If both parties in a marriage agree on an open marriage, on swinging, on 3-somes, etc. it is not cheating, it is done with the knowledge and consent of both marriage partners. 

The second topic is what does "banging a hooker" mean. In the "post that the OP referenced" the wife indicated that her husband went to be with "escorts" usually while she was out of the country visiting relatives 2 to 3 times a year. There are a lot of sex workers out there. They include; bikini baristas, topless waitresses, strippers, women who work in illegal massage parlors, addicts who sell themself for a fix of their drug of choice, prostitutes that work the streets, prostitutes that work bars, prostitutes that work the internet, prostitutes at legal brothels, porn stars, escorts, female dominatrix, etc. Some of them probably include women who have a high probability of having an STD or if they had an SDT wouldn't care if they passed it on to a client. Others probably fear for their own health, are very careful and take steps to minimize their exposure to STD's or work where mandatory testing, condoms, and safer sex are required (legal brothels and porn actors). So depending on what one means by banning a hooker, there could be a very remote chance of getting an STD. Still monogamy would be an even lower chance.

The third, issue is that to some, they like to see things as either black or white, or all one way or another. I am old enough to have seen a lot and realized that not everything is cut and dried. For example, in the case of the woman in the post that was referenced. If I remember correctly she liked to go out of the country 2 or 3 times a very to visit family. It sounded like there were the principal times her husband sought out escorts. The wife seemed to not have had a problem with that and was grateful he didn't become emotionally involved with lovers. The wife also seem to feel all other aspects of her life (marriage) with her husband were very good.

I know people who are in gay marriages, who have married someone so they could stay within the USA, have married someone they lived with for decades just to get them on their health insurance, to be able to help them near the end of life get their legal and financial affairs in order. There are places and cultures where multiple wives are allowed, where having a mistress is common, where having affairs or typical, where "boys night out" includes strippers or massage parlors, and where prostitution is legal.

I am a big fan of David Schnarch and his book the Crucible. He likes to say that marriage is the hardest thing that two people can do, if done correctly. Marriage will push and pull two people's emotional development throughout the entire marriage. It will challenge people not to grow at their own pace, but at a pace imposed by a spouse or by circumstances. For the marriage to survive, there will have to be commitment and the flexibility to mutually agree to change and negotiated boundaries.

I feel that what is being complained about is because of the imposition of peoples own definition of what marriage entails being applied to another couple, is because of some assumptions of what sex with a "hooker or escort" really means, and is because people are not willing to see a spectrum of fine gradations in their assumptions about others. 

I don't think that the lady who did the posting was in a great situation, but she gets to make those choices. I urged her to do some research on codependence and sex marriage counseling to improve her marriage. I also suggested she explicitly discuss with her H and the marriage counselor if lack of intimacy between them and his seeing escorts helped or interfered with a jointly held definition of marriage.

Again, thanks for your views.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

hamadryad said:


> If she has zero interest in sex, either with him, or anyone else, and she is getting all her other needs met.....That's the best reasoning I can come up with...
> 
> My aunt had that type of arrangement...He was an immigrant from a country that is known for men having multiple women...He didn't even hide it...She loved him, and was able to lead a pretty opulent lifestyle, so I imagine that was enough to satisfy her needs.. Perhaps for others there are a variety of reasons..who knows??
> 
> ...


Definitely take a look and let me know what you think. I didn't want to derail her thread if she is genuinely looking for help.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Maybe she should become her own prossy entrepreneur and then he could be one of her many customers?
> 
> What the hell right??? 😵‍💫


If I weren't a germaphobe, I'd be all for prossy-getting equality.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> Prossy is good.
> 
> Prissy might be phonetically better sounding, but, it may be a wide and deep lie for these gals.


You really have a way with words, my friend.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> I agree. First I am pro-marriage (my definition) and think that cheating is a bad idea.
> 
> I think that there are really at least three separate concepts being discussed by the OP to this thread.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Young at Heart!
1. That's a fair point. However, it's only her husband using escorts.
2. I used the term banging a hooker to drive salacious interest to this thread for discussion. Though, it hardly matters what flavor sex worker, if it's not his wife, and she's not getting laid or stepping outside herself. From what I could tell, there is no agreement and she wants sex but is left high and dry, which is why my view is dump the stump.
3. Maybe a lot of details are missing, so there's no context. I asked about culture, to gauge views, but got a vague response. It could very well be a financial legal situation for citizenship or comfortable life, but we don't know. The wife did very much have a problem with him because he's screwing escorts and not her, even if she doesn't consider it cheating. Why else complain about it and solicit advice?

Although my preference is hetero monogamy, like you I've also seen people in various agreed-upon arrangements that work for them. However, she's the one posting looking for advice to get her philandering H to have sex with her, so I hardly think that is a satisfactory arrangement in her view.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Young at Heart said:


> I agree. First I am pro-marriage (my definition) and think that cheating is a bad idea.
> 
> I think that there are really at least three separate concepts being discussed by the OP to this thread.
> 
> ...


I would agree with this entirely if there was an agreement, but he hides it, and deprives her of sex and affection, and has a porn habit in addition to sneaking behind her back for prostitutes when she is out of the country. (I’d bet money he does more than just that)

If the problem were of their marriage, or with something she is doing, that’s one thing. But the issue is not their marriage or her. There is no marriage that causes a man to seek pornography and prostitutes over their wife that wants to have sex with them. 

So I think the entire thread is missing the forest for the trees. Her husband is sneaking, lying, has secret sexual affairs and actively hides all this while depriving her of affection and intimacy. And has been doing so for at least the entirety of their marriage. Probably longer. That’s not something that can by solved by fixing a marriage, or her dressing up like a cartoon skank. He is the problem. He needs help. Individually. She is just being a willing doormat and doesn’t see she can’t fix him.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Way back in 1997, my wife and I we’re having a night out with one of her female school friends and her fiancée.

Funnily enough when her fiancée was elsewhere, to our surprise she mentioned that she was fine with him seeing prostitutes. Since she didn’t want to have sex with him and was thinking that she would carry on a marriage with him sans sex while he got it elsewhere.

In the end her friend eventually dumped him before they got married, which I think was a good thing since I found him to be a lot of a creep (although his brother was a nice person).

That said another thing about them being together, was he met the right criteria of being from the same nationality, religious background and ethnic group as my wife’s friend.

At the end of the day though, if all involved are okay with that kind of thing then good luck to them.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Personal said:


> Way back in 1997, my wife and I we’re having a night out with one of her female school friends and her fiancée.
> 
> Funnily enough when her fiancée was elsewhere, to our surprise she mentioned that she was fine with him seeing prostitutes. Since she didn’t want to have sex with him and was thinking that she would carry on a marriage with him sans sex while he got it elsewhere.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. The situation we're talking about, the wife is not ok, b/c she's not getting laid and wants to, but won't use male hookers.


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## Tested_by_stress (Apr 1, 2021)

The title reads likes the title of a Jerry Springer episode. Come to think of it, snoopy2's story reads like the script of said episode.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> I'm interested in hearing your thoughts, especially after seeing some bits of absolutely absurd, bordering on voyeuristic advice given to this unusual young woman.


My take…

As a man, if I am tapping a woman that is it. I want to go raw and I don’t want to infect or be infected. So that means one woman only.

Seeing a hooker not so much. It’s wasted energy. You SHOULD ditch whatever you have if you don’t like it and then find another to be your only.

This is my testimony and I stand by it.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Tested_by_stress said:


> The title reads likes he title of a Jerry Springer episode. Come to think of it, snoopy2's story reads like the script of said episode.


I figured it would be great clickbait. 

Seriously though, I needed confirmation that TAM wasn't degenerating, b/c some people on there made hooker-banging out to be no big deal.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Yeah, I read that thread. Personally, I think it's totally bogus. If it's not, then the OP is delusional and has set the bar so low on what she'll accept it's pathetic. JMO


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Prodigal said:


> Yeah, I read that thread. Personally, I think it's totally bogus. If it's not, then the OP is delusional and has set the bar so low on what she'll accept it's pathetic. JMO


I hope that's the case, it's really sad if not.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Prodigal said:


> Yeah, I read that thread. Personally, I think it's totally bogus. If it's not, then the OP is delusional and has set the bar so low on what she'll accept it's pathetic. JMO


How low would your self worth have to be to accept your husband banging some escort?

When I had issues with sexual frequency with my wife I thought for about 10 seconds about staying married and doing something else before I ruled it out as stupid and pointless.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> Dude, you should visit the original thread. Some TAM regulars are giving this woman advice on how to act like a prostitute to inveigle her degenerate turd of a husband to screw her too/instead.
> 
> ETA:
> And to invite his favorite Prossy to show her how to bang him.


🤮


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> 🤮


That thread is why I asked for the 🤮 button.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TXTrini said:


> That thread is why I asked for the 🤮 button.


Thought it was. 😉


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Thought it was. 😉


Saucy minx!


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> If she has zero interest in sex, either with him, or anyone else, and she is getting all her other needs met.....That's the best reasoning I can come up with...
> 
> My aunt had that type of arrangement...He was an immigrant from a country that is known for men having multiple women...He didn't even hide it...She loved him, and was able to lead a pretty opulent lifestyle, so I imagine that was enough to satisfy her needs.. Perhaps for others there are a variety of reasons..who knows??
> 
> ...


Thing is she wants sex with him and she will get him to say yes to her every couple months. Meanwhile he is masturbating to porn and hiring prostitutes while she is visiting family. She says she isn't okay with it, but seems almost unfazed. She rationalizes that it is okay because he is getting it from a sex worker, not just some woman he picks up at a bar or something. It is totally baffling to me.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> Prossy is good.
> 
> Prissy might be phonetically better sounding, but, it may be a wide and deep lie for these gals.


Wide and deep is more of a Prossy description


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Heh not sure that whole dilemma is worth another thread but hey why not.



TXTrini said:


> What I can't understand is why in this day and age a woman would even want to bother with a man like that?


Same reason why they bother with men who beat them up and abuse them I reckon.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Heh not sure that whole dilemma is worth another thread but hey why not.
> 
> Same reason why they bother with men who beat them up and abuse them I reckon.


Maybe not, but it seemed disrespectful to indulge my curiosity on that thread.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TXTrini said:


> That thread is why I asked for the 🤮 button.


I got it after this thread.🤮🤮🤮


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Reminds me of the wife that cut her hubby’s penis off- Bobbit? Seems like a woman with a temper wouldn’t put up with that.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> Reminds me of the wife that cut her hubby’s penis off- Bobbit? Seems like a woman with a temper wouldn’t put up with that.


It's funny you mention that! I warned someone about that on another thread, they didn't know who Lorena Bobitt was.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Btw @ CatholicDad 
After reading so many threads about husbands who are addicted to porn and rather screw around on their wives instead of with their wives, 

I have to wonder if you are right after all. I was neutral b/c everything is a choice, but it's a definite trend.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TXTrini said:


> So, I had to recuse myself from a thread because I could not wrap my mind around the thought process involved in thinking a poster's marriage was great other than the fact Mr. Wonderful was banging hookers and not touching her with a 10-foot pole.
> 
> Ok, so some folks have open marriages and swing, but both parties are getting sex somehow. I could understand if she was totally asexual/ill and allowed him to meet his needs elsewhere, I've heard of people who do that sort of thing where I'm from. What I can't understand is why in this day and age a woman would even want to bother with a man like that?
> 
> ...


Some folks like to wear diapers and have their spouses change them. I don't need to understand them, I don't care.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> So, I had to recuse myself from a thread because I could not wrap my mind around the thought process involved in thinking a poster's marriage was great other than the fact Mr. Wonderful was banging hookers and not touching her with a 10-foot pole.
> 
> Ok, so some folks have open marriages and swing, but both parties are getting sex somehow. I could understand if she was totally asexual/ill and allowed him to meet his needs elsewhere, I've heard of people who do that sort of thing where I'm from. What I can't understand is why in this day and age a woman would even want to bother with a man like that?
> 
> ...


This kind of risk is not limited to just STI's. Without getting into a debate on the disease itself, look at the risks that people are taking with COVID right now. Look at how many people risk the flu, both catching and spreading, by not getting those shots. So perception seems to be playing a large part in this.

Risk assessment is a very individual thing. We can look at statistical odds all day, but in the end, each of us will have to judge whether the risk is worth the reward. That which I might not find worth it, you could, and vice versa.

People do care about these things (well...most). It's one of the reasons there are people in closed poly relationships. Some take that responsibility and risk threat very seriously and mitigate it as much as they can. While I wouldn't call you a hypochondriac, You seem to me, at first blush, to be just more sensitive to the risk from this area. Not a bad thing. You just can't let your bias (again not used in a negative way) for this to color other's decisions. There is a major difference between saying "that's wrong" vs "that's wrong for me". One of the key factors is whether or not others are harmed by the decision without the consent to the risk of that harm. And that is what shows the difference between poly/open and cheating. Cheating lacks that consent.

As to your one question why a woman would even want to bother with such a man (or really anyone with a given partner. Sex/gender doesn't matter for this issue), it happens for a couple of reasons. First, it's usually not an obvious thing at first. Secondly, for some reason many of us are not willing to leave this kind of abuse/neglect. Whether it is the false idea that we failed causing the other to cheat, or that we have had the radical monogamy for life no excuses concept shoved down our throats, or some other reasons, we tend to not want to let go of toxic people in our lives. We see it easily enough in others, but are blind to ourselves.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Thats not the case here.


I believe that @hamadryad was referring to the generalization and not the specific case of the other thread.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

maquiscat said:


> One of the key factors is whether or not others are harmed by the decision without the consent to the risk of that harm. And that is what shows the difference between poly/open and cheating. Cheating lacks that consent.


There is an additional factor here in that both the escort and the John in this case are committing a crime in most places in the world (prostitution and soliciting). They’re a crime for a reason and interestingly some of that thinking in terms of why they’re criminal in the first place could also be applied to porn.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> I figured it would be great clickbait.
> 
> Seriously though, I needed confirmation that TAM wasn't degenerating, b/c some people on there made hooker-banging out to be no big deal.


I would say that hooker banging (with the caveat that "hooker" has a wide range of application), in and of itself is not a big deal. Cheating and engaging outside of agreed boundaries is a big deal. The hardest part is trying to not conflate the two.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> There is an additional factor here in that both the escort and the John in this case are committing a crime in most places in the world (prostitution and soliciting). They’re a crime for a reason and interestingly some of that thinking in terms of why they’re criminal in the first place could also be applied to porn.


That is rather separate from what I was saying. I took the OP as tackling the topic as a more generalized issues as opposed to the specifics of snoopy's thread, and answered accordingly. My point remains whether or not a person is engaging in an illegal activity. There are other legal means by which the one could engage with others besides their spouse. We would need a whole separate thread to discuss whether any given thing should or should not be illegal.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

maquiscat said:


> That is rather separate from what I was saying. I took the OP as tackling the topic as a more generalized issues as opposed to the specifics of snoopy's thread, and answered accordingly. My point remains whether or not a person is engaging in an illegal activity. There are other legal means by which the one could engage with others besides their spouse. We would need a whole separate thread to discuss whether any given thing should or should not be illegal.


Maybe, however the title here contains the word “hookers” which seems pretty specific.

It also maybe is different in that it could be viewed as a transactional service like getting your hair cut or something by a small subset of people.


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> I would say that hooker banging (with the caveat that "hooker" has a wide range of application), in and of itself is not a big deal. Cheating and engaging outside of agreed boundaries is a big deal. The hardest part is trying to not conflate the two.


For me it would be a major deal that has nothing to do with fidelity. If a single man banged a hooker I would now consider him damaged goods, much like many men view women with a “high” partner count as damaged. I have forgiven infidelity in my marriage but being with a prostitute would an instant deal breaker. To me it is much worse than cheating.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Bluesclues said:


> For me it would be a major deal that has nothing to do with fidelity. If a single man banged a hooker I would now consider him damaged goods, much like many men view women with a “high” partner count as damaged. I have forgiven infidelity in my marriage but being with a prostitute would an instant deal breaker. To me it is much worse than cheating.


Which comes right back around to my point of the difference between "that's wrong" vs "that's wrong for me". Shift it back the other way. Is someone banging a hooker, where it is not an affect on your life and decision, really all that big a deal?


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

maquiscat said:


> Which comes right back around to my point of the difference between "that's wrong" vs "that's wrong for me". Shift it back the other way. Is someone banging a hooker, where it is not an affect on your life and decision, really all that big a deal?


We are often guilty of projecting our feelings. I am, as you know, lol. But, people do come here for our opinions and that is what they get. Certain topics like infidelity, monogamy and pretty much anything dealing with sex can generate a very viseral reaction in people. That is going to come out in their posts.

So you are right, if someone else is okay with their husband banging a hooker and neglecting their wife sexually it really doesn't harm me directly. At the same time I know it would cause me/my wife emotional harm if in that position and I don't want to see someone else go through that and if I can help I will. 

For me there is also a feeling that if I tolerate something so obviously wrong to me it will eventually be accepted in general. I think that can be bad for all of us. I wouldn't stand by if I saw a man beating his wife. I know that is extreme, but some see this kind of behaviour in that same light.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Also, in the case of patronising hookers and sex workers you are potentially taking a risk that could physically harm your innocent partner. 

You are also supporting an "industry" that has a very dark underside known for human trafficking and sexual abuse of women. Something similar could be said about porn too. The risk is lower, but still exists.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Also, in the case of patronising hookers and sex workers you are potentially taking a risk that could physically harm your innocent partner.
> 
> You are also supporting an "industry" that has a very dark underside known for human trafficking and sexual abuse of women. Something similar could be said about porn too. The risk is lower, but still exists.


It's leaking sewage tank. At best a porcelain bowl full of you know what. Selling and buying women, in porn or other venues, is vile in reality regardless of how it has tried to have been normalized, tidied up or even glorified.


----------



## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> That thread is why I asked for the 🤮 button.


Dumb question - what does that mean?


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So you are right, if someone else is okay with their husband banging a hooker and neglecting their wife sexually it really doesn't harm me directly.


One could argue it harms society.

Since most spouses would not tolerate this behavior you could infer that having this outlet easily available and legal will result in some amount of marriages being dissolved as a result.

The literature that looks at whether marriage is beneficial or not in child and family outcomes isn’t clear.

Whether breaking up marriages and families is bad or good for society is worth considering because as much as those people consume state resources they are affecting others. Indirectly you may be affected by a large amount of this behavior.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Same can be said for most of the clothes on people's back, the food on their tables, etc..

Exploitation of children/people/workers has many forms, so if we are going to use that as a reasoning, perhaps we should start growing and harvesting our own food and making our own clothes, etc.. If we want to cherry pick prostitution, for the reasoning of exploitation, that's fine, but then we better be prepared to walk the walk, if we want to talk the talk...


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> We are often guilty of projecting our feelings. I am, as you know, lol. But, people do come here for our opinions and that is what they get. Certain topics like infidelity, monogamy and pretty much anything dealing with sex can generate a very viseral reaction in people. That is going to come out in their posts.
> 
> So you are right, if someone else is okay with their husband banging a hooker and neglecting their wife sexually it really doesn't harm me directly. At the same time I know it would cause me/my wife emotional harm if in that position and I don't want to see someone else go through that and if I can help I will.
> 
> For me there is also a feeling that if I tolerate something so obviously wrong to me it will eventually be accepted in general. I think that can be bad for all of us. I wouldn't stand by if I saw a man beating his wife. I know that is extreme, but some see this kind of behaviour in that same light.





BigDaddyNY said:


> Also, in the case of patronising hookers and sex workers you are potentially taking a risk that could physically harm your innocent partner.
> 
> You are also supporting an "industry" that has a very dark underside known for human trafficking and sexual abuse of women. Something similar could be said about porn too. The risk is lower, but still exists.


And this feeds back to the point that the risk and/or harm must be consented to. If the husband is not seeing other women with the wife's permission, then she is not consenting to any risk. In the end it doesn't matter if anyone else is alright with the woman's husband banging a hooker. What matters is if _she _is alright with that. It makes a difference on whether you are viewing an activity in and of itself, and viewing it with specific context in mind. An otherwise harmless activity can be harmful under given circumstances.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> One could argue it harms society.


It's amazing what one can argue harms society. Religion is harmful to society because of the hate and bigotry many of them has espoused. Lack of religion is harmful to society because of the supposed lack of morals. Marriage without divorce is harmful because it keeps people who are toxic to each other together. Marriage with divorce is harmful because people have no incentive to stay together. We could go on.



> Since most spouses would not tolerate this behavior you could infer that having this outlet easily available and legal will result in some amount of marriages being dissolved as a result.


Makes me wonder if such marriages were strong enough to begin with.



> The literature that looks at whether marriage is beneficial or not in child and family outcomes isn’t clear.
> 
> Whether breaking up marriages and families is bad or good for society is worth considering because as much as those people consume state resources they are affecting others. Indirectly you may be affected by a large amount of this behavior.


This could also easily get into a discussion as to what if any state resources a person is entitled to, or what should or should not be available. That too is a wide range of opinion.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Bluesclues said:


> For me it would be a major deal that has nothing to do with fidelity. If a single man banged a hooker I would now consider him damaged goods, much like many men view women with a “high” partner count as damaged. I have forgiven infidelity in my marriage but being with a prostitute would an instant deal breaker. To me it is much worse than cheating.


Absolutely.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> This kind of risk is not limited to just STI's. Without getting into a debate on the disease itself, look at the risks that people are taking with COVID right now. Look at how many people risk the flu, both catching and spreading, by not getting those shots. So perception seems to be playing a large part in this.
> 
> Risk assessment is a very individual thing. We can look at statistical odds all day, but in the end, each of us will have to judge whether the risk is worth the reward. That which I might not find worth it, you could, and vice versa.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the thoughtful response, maquiscat,
You're right about the risk assessment, I am risk-averse for some things, and not for others myself, I get the whole risk/reward balance. However, there's a noticeable shift in attitudes, especially in the younger crowd, not just here, so I wondered how people viewed these things.

In poly relationships like you mentioned, all parties make their agreements, and although I can't fathom being OK with that, who am I to say what makes those people happy. The thread that launches this question, however, one party is clearly NOT happy, but didn't think sex with escorts was cheating. I suppose my view is different, b/c although sex= job for escorts they are still people and I don't see a huge difference if my partner was choosing anyone else BUT me.

Maybe her tone struck me, b/c I am from a culture that makes excuses for adultery even though it's not promoted. I do understand the fear to leave the familiar (faced that myself), but at some point, we choose what we get. Reading that thread made me feel like I went back in time 50 years ago.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> We are often guilty of projecting our feelings. I am, as you know, lol. But, people do come here for our opinions and that is what they get. Certain topics like infidelity, monogamy and pretty much anything dealing with sex can generate a very viseral reaction in people. That is going to come out in their posts.
> 
> So you are right, if someone else is okay with their husband banging a hooker and neglecting their wife sexually it really doesn't harm me directly. At the same time I know it would cause me/my wife emotional harm if in that position and I don't want to see someone else go through that and if I can help I will.
> 
> *For me there is also a feeling that if I tolerate something so obviously wrong to me it will eventually be accepted in general. I think that can be bad for all of us. I wouldn't stand by if I saw a man beating his wife. I know that is extreme, but some see this kind of behaviour in that same light.*


This is exactly why I felt ill after reading that thread, especially in light of some of the advice given. I saw someone desperately unhappy with a situation putting on a brave face taking on the blame of being put aside sexually for paid sex and rationalizing it.

It made me wonder if our changing attitudes is making others feel they need to put up with things they're uncomfortable with because these things are seen as no big deal.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> It's leaking sewage tank. At best a porcelain bowl full of you know what. Selling and buying women, in porn or other venues, is vile in reality regardless of how it has tried to have been normalized, tidied up or even glorified.


I have to agree with this.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> We are often guilty of projecting our feelings. I am, as you know, lol. But, people do come here for our opinions and that is what they get. Certain topics like infidelity, monogamy and pretty much anything dealing with sex can generate a very viseral reaction in people. That is going to come out in their posts.
> 
> So you are right, if someone else is okay with their husband banging a hooker and neglecting their wife sexually it really doesn't harm me directly. At the same time I know it would cause me/my wife emotional harm if in that position and I don't want to see someone else go through that and if I can help I will.
> 
> For me there is also a feeling that if I tolerate something so obviously wrong to me it will eventually be accepted in general. I think that can be bad for all of us. I wouldn't stand by if I saw a man beating his wife. I know that is extreme, but some see this kind of behaviour in that same light.


This is how I feel as well. To me, it’s abusive to deceive and take ones free choice to have a say in the sexual behaviors happening in the marriage. It is no visually apparent to others when it’s happening but it is happening. Now, like many women who think they deserve the beating, or it’s not that bit of a deal since he just grabbed her enough to bruise, or bumped her intimidatingly with his body… people if they were aware of the behavior would want to talk sense into the disillusioned woman. Or at least try.

In one way, no it doesn’t affect me personally, but on some level I at least want to try and make that person understand it IS abusive. And this situation, she can placate herself all she wants, but she knows deep down the situation is destroying her. She just refuses to come to terms with it and hold him accountable.

What is DISGUSTING is the people who are on that string encouraging her to feed the abuse. Dress like a cartoon Ho, bring hookers into the bedroom. I had no idea there were people like this in the world. It’s disheartening.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

joannacroc said:


> Dumb question - what does that mean?


I was so grossed out by the thread this one offshoots from, I wanted a puke button. Specifically to tag some truly disgusting posts on it. You'd have to read it to see what I mean.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> Maybe, however the title here contains the word “hookers” which seems pretty specific.
> 
> It also maybe is different in that it could be viewed as a transactional service like getting your hair cut or something by a small subset of people.


This opens up two issues; compatibility with regards to what is acceptable/not in a relationship, and on person trying to impose their will on another instead of accepting they can't win and walk.



Bluesclues said:


> For me it would be a major deal that has nothing to do with fidelity. If a single man banged a hooker I would now consider him damaged goods, much like many men view women with a “high” partner count as damaged. I have forgiven infidelity in my marriage but being with a prostitute would an instant deal breaker. To me it is much worse than cheating.


I agree. It shows me our values and thoughts of sex aren't compatible.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

hamadryad said:


> Same can be said for most of the clothes on people's back, the food on their tables, etc..
> 
> Exploitation of children/people/workers has many forms, so if we are going to use that as a reasoning, perhaps we should start growing and harvesting our own food and making our own clothes, etc.. If we want to cherry pick prostitution, for the reasoning of exploitation, that's fine, but then we better be prepared to walk the walk, if we want to talk the talk...


We don't have to go that far, but we can make better choices. There are many fair trade certified options for food and clothing, and I personally buy them because it's worth it to me.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> Thanks for the thoughtful response, maquiscat,
> You're right about the risk assessment, I am risk-averse for some things, and not for others myself, I get the whole risk/reward balance. However, there's a noticeable shift in attitudes, especially in the younger crowd, not just here, so I wondered how people viewed these things.
> 
> In poly relationships like you mentioned, all parties make their agreements, and although I can't fathom being OK with that, who am I to say what makes those people happy. The thread that launches this question, however, one party is clearly NOT happy, but didn't think sex with escorts was cheating. I suppose my view is different, b/c although sex= job for escorts they are still people and I don't see a huge difference if my partner was choosing anyone else BUT me.
> ...


I agree with you on snoopy's specific situation. To me that is that specific thread. I have been taking this thread as if that one inspired it, but you are feeling out in a more general sense, than talking specifically about that thread.

I do encourage you to not think in terms of adultery, but in terms of cheating. Adultery is rather objective, but it's impact is subjective. There is a shift from it being negative to it being neutral. Cheating, which subjective, indicates a violation of agreements, whereas adultery can still occur even with agreement.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> I agree with you on snoopy's specific situation. To me that is that specific thread. I have been taking this thread as if that one inspired it, but you are feeling out in a more general sense, than talking specifically about that thread.
> 
> I do encourage you to not think in terms of adultery, but in terms of cheating. Adultery is rather objective, but it's impact is subjective. There is a shift from it being negative to it being neutral. Cheating, which subjective, indicates a violation of agreements, whereas adultery can still occur even with agreement.


It's hard for me to separate that thread from this one, because it's what sparked my interest. However, I didn't want to threadjack her thread.

Ok, now you're using semantics, and I get it, you're poly, so you don't use those terms interchangeably. However adultery = cheating for me, and many monogamous folk. I'm not going to argue semantics with you, the principles are the same for that situation. There was no agreement, one party acts to suit himself, the other part is clearly unhappy with the status quo.

How about we focus on the premise that there are no agreements, one party is acting without care for the other, and the injured party is not happy but goes along anyway because "everything else is good". I can see how someone's sense of self, and personal boundaries can slip over time the more they allow themselves to accept less. Been there, done that.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I dunno.....I guess I don't have the inclination to start crusades for people that exercise poor judgement..,or do things that I wouldn't conceivably do...

I mean, couldn't we start a thread with "Married women that are known gold diggers and the men that love them"...

Like in that case, I wouldn't stand for it for a minute, but if some guy thinks that it's ok for a woman to use him like an ATM, while he works himself into the ground to keep up, isn't it the same thing as some woman who thinks that it's ok for a guy to put his **** in a prostitute, because better that, than if he starts effing her friend and runs off with her?...In both cases, it's atypical behavior, but they somehow managed to rationalize it...

One of my closest female relatives married a gay guy....Yes, she knows he's gay, I have no idea where or with who he gets his rocks off with and maybe she likes him as a person and has no interest in sex, so she is good with it? I didn't ask and don't really care...

As for the responses telling her to "compete" with the prostitutes to gain his affection back..? Sure...I would consider that bizarre advice...

At the end of the day, people stay in situations like these, because they are getting something out of it...When they don't anymore, then they would probably leave...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> How about we focus on the premise that there are no agreements, one party is acting without care for the other, and the injured party is not happy but goes along anyway because "everything else is good". *I can see how someone's sense of self, and personal boundaries can slip over time the more they allow themselves to accept less.* Been there, done that.


This is exactly what happened in my now-ended marriage. I was so desperate to entice ANY kind of sexual interest in me that I lowered my boundaries over and over, until my face was in the dirt.

It was brutally painful, and the wounds are slow to heal. 

The OP in the other thread posted that she has confidence in herself and a strong sense of her own value...but if she follows the advice of those posters who told her that her husband is just bored with HER, and to do little tricks to gain his sexual interest back, and then FAILS (which she WILL)...she will lose all of that and become a shell of who she is now.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

hamadryad said:


> I dunno.....I guess I don't have the inclination to start crusades for people that exercise poor judgement..,or do things that I wouldn't conceivably do...
> 
> I mean, couldn't we start a thread with "Married women that are known gold diggers and the men that love them"...
> 
> ...


You could start that thread if you were so inclined, and you'd have lots of discussion. 

Why does anyone start a thread about any topic? I'm interested in the thought process b/c there's been a ton of women popping up with similar issues, and it's one I've faced myself.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

hamadryad said:


> I dunno.....I guess I don't have the inclination to start crusades for people that exercise poor judgement..,or do things that I wouldn't conceivably do...
> 
> I mean, couldn't we start a thread with "Married women that are known gold diggers and the men that love them"...


Isn't that what the MGOTW thread was basically about??


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Isn't that what the MGOTW thread was basically about??



What's MGOTW?


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> This is exactly what happened in my now-ended marriage. I was so desperate to entice ANY kind of sexual interest in me that I lowered my boundaries over and over, until my face was in the dirt.
> 
> It was brutally painful, and the wounds are slow to heal.
> 
> The OP in the other thread posted that she has confidence in herself and a strong sense of her own value...but if she follows the advice of those posters who told her that her husband is just bored with HER, and to do little tricks to gain his sexual interest back, and then FAILS (which she WILL)...she will lose all of that and become a shell of who she is now.


I could see clearly how she could get to that point, like I said, been there, done that. Heck, I'm still recovering from it, maybe that's why it grabbed my attention.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> This is exactly what happened in my now-ended marriage. I was so desperate to entice ANY kind of sexual interest in me that I lowered my boundaries over and over, until my face was in the dirt.
> 
> It was brutally painful, and the wounds are slow to heal.
> 
> The OP in the other thread posted that she has confidence in herself and a strong sense of her own value...but if she follows the advice of those posters who told her that her husband is just bored with HER, and to do little tricks to gain his sexual interest back, and then FAILS (which she WILL)...she will lose all of that and become a shell of who she is now.


Yes, blaming the cheated on spouse for what the cheater does, and telling them that they should grovel in the mud because he is grovelling in the mud is appalling.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

hamadryad said:


> What's MGTOW?


I'm not sure!!! It was about men who were angry at women taking advantage of them.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> I dunno.....I guess I don't have the inclination to start crusades for people that exercise poor judgement..,or do things that I wouldn't conceivably do...
> 
> I mean, couldn't we start a thread with "Married women that are known gold diggers and the men that love them"...
> 
> ...


If the man was under the impression that the woman was anything but a gold digger… for instance thought she loved him for his shining personality and cooking skills rather than the fact he buys her Birkins…and he thought he could fix her behavior, you wouldn’t say anything to him?? You wouldn’t direct him to some sort of “man up” resources?


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

QuietRiot said:


> If the man was under the impression that the woman was anything but a gold digger… for instance thought she loved him for his shining personality and cooking skills rather than the fact he buys her Birkins…and he thought he could fix her behavior, you wouldn’t say anything to him?? You wouldn’t direct him to some sort of “man up” resources?



Nah...

I mean where does this end? 

It's 3 degrees here and the poor guys hanging off the back of the garbage truck to pick up the garbage probably aren't making $18/hr....Talk about exploitation! Do you ever think of them?


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

hamadryad said:


> Nah...
> 
> I mean where does this end?
> 
> It's 3 degrees here and the poor guys hanging off the back of the garbage truck to pick up the garbage probably aren't making $18/hr....Talk about exploitation! Do you ever think of them?


What's got your goat today?

ETA: Is this a sore spot? Do you bang hookers?


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> Nah...
> 
> I mean where does this end?
> 
> It's 3 degrees here and the poor guys hanging off the back of the garbage truck to pick up the garbage probably aren't making $18/hr....Talk about exploitation! Do you ever think of them?


Oh. Sorry didn’t realize we were having dialogue about the oppression of males until you posted this. I don’t think that’s even applicable to this discussion. But alrighty. 

To answer your question and your meme, no. I don’t think about people who choose the paid jobs they are in. I shoveled snow for free for many years for my mom, myself, and my neighbors. So. I’m not sure what snow shoveling and gender equality have in common. But thank you for this deep contemplation into an unrelated topic.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

hamadryad said:


> Nah...
> 
> I mean where does this end?
> 
> It's 3 degrees here and the poor guys hanging off the back of the garbage truck to pick up the garbage probably aren't making $18/hr....Talk about exploitation! Do you ever think of them?


I'm not like this...neither are lots of the women posting on here. 

And what does your post mean...? Isn't that garbage guy in the same situation you described -- he must be getting something out of that job, even if he's being underpaid (according to you), and that's why he stays in it. 
He can quit anytime he wants to, so why feel bad for him?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> Nah...
> 
> I mean where does this end?
> 
> It's 3 degrees here and the poor guys hanging off the back of the garbage truck to pick up the garbage probably aren't making $18/hr....Talk about exploitation! Do you ever think of them?


Well that's another subject, but I'd be super happy if I was making $18 an hour.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Another thought- too bad we’re living in such a wussified world and that poster didn’t have a couple mean older brothers. In the good old days I’d like to think someone in her family would whoop his azz and the police would look away. Years later hubby might have been thankful for it.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

TXTrini said:


> Btw @ CatholicDad
> After reading so many threads about husbands who are addicted to porn and rather screw around on their wives instead of with their wives,
> 
> I have to wonder if you are right after all. I was neutral b/c everything is a choice, but it's a definite trend.


Go to my fight the drug URL tagline and read the stats. The amount of porn traffic on the internet is astounding, and sad.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> Another though- too bad we’re living in such a wussified world and that poster didn’t have a couple mean older brothers. In the good old days I’d like to think someone in her family would whoop his azz and the police would look away. Years later hubby might have been thankful for it.


Too bad indeed. She's isolated though, with no family here.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

What bothers me is when posters purposefully refuse to understand the issue -- if the guy wanted his partner to join him, HE WOULDN'T BE HIDING IT!!!!! And there are many of us from those exact situations as PROOF...yet they still refuse to acknowledge the real issue.

And I try very hard to NOT be bothered...but it hurts me, I think because it reminds me of how much I did to do to get my EX's attention and to please him sexually...and I was rejected every single time. 

Of course, that's me projecting MY feelings onto posts, I know, but I've lived what they are going through, that's why I KNOW and can SEE the reality...that other posters who have much more "charmed" sexual relationships seem to refuse to want to understand.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> What bothers me is when posters purposefully refuse to understand the issue -- if the guy wanted his partner to join him, HE WOULDN'T BE HIDING IT!!!!! And there are many of us from those exact situations as PROOF...yet they still refuse to acknowledge the real issue.
> 
> And I try very hard to NOT be bothered...but it hurts me, I think because it reminds me of how much I did to do to get my EX's attention and to please him sexually...and I was rejected every single time.
> 
> Of course, that's me projecting MY feelings onto posts, I know, but I've lived what they are going through, that's why I KNOW and can SEE the reality...that other posters who have much more "charmed" sexual relationships seem to refuse to want to understand.


Some people have no empathy or understanding for others until the shoe is on the other foot. 

What bothers me is when those people focus on the wrong things, and end up making an already beaten down person feel more inadequate, it basically shifts the responsibility of someone else's actions to that person.

When I dealt with this, I took on all the responsibility because I was too ashamed to ask anyone their opinion. The first thing people question is your attractiveness and worth when it's already low, instead of saying when a wrong thing is a wrong thing. That's why I question the principles of people who blameshift when wrongdoing is clear. 

It's a pity people don't openly own their proclivities so you can filter them before you are legally and financially bound.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TXTrini said:


> What's got your goat today?
> 
> ETA: Is this a sore spot? Do you bang hookers?


Hookerbanger.... I think I just found a new nasty name to put in my collection...😆


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

As heartbreaking as it is for these wives to be replaced by porn/prostitutes- they really should gather proof and then just divorce the cheater and hire the best lawyer possible. I mean, you can’t rehabilitate men that are this far gone.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

CatholicDad said:


> As heartbreaking as it is for these wives to be replaced by porn/prostitutes- they really should gather proof and then just divorce the cheater and hire the best lawyer possible. I mean, you can’t rehabilitate men that are this far gone.


I agree. People who have ever been within the clutches of porn are forever scarred by it.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> I agree. People who have ever been within the clutches of porn are forever scarred by it.


Sarcasm? I’d think a guy that was sorrowful could be “rehabilitated”. But these guys that flat out have replaced their wives with porn… there is no hope for them. All modern men have likely been “damaged” by porn to some extent.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

CatholicDad said:


> As heartbreaking as it is for these wives to be replaced by porn/prostitutes- they really should gather proof and then just divorce the cheater and hire the best lawyer possible. I mean, you can’t rehabilitate men that are this far gone.


They don't even need proof. It makes no difference in court getting a divorce. All they need to know is their marriage became dysfunctional and it's not good enough anymore.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I'm not like this...neither are lots of the women posting on here.
> 
> And what does your post mean...? Isn't that garbage guy in the same situation you described -- he must be getting something out of that job, even if he's being underpaid (according to you), and that's why he stays in it.
> He can quit anytime he wants to, so why feel bad for him?


Plus those are young guys in entry level positions and they're probably making more money than a whole lot of other people around town in entry level positions and get some benefits as well.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

It's been truly disturbing to see all of the threads lately of lazy duds whacking off to cam girls or "Instagram models" instead of doing their unhappy wives or decisively dealing with any relationship issues.

Heck, I lived it and still can't wrap my head around it. Thankfully it's no longer a personal issue, but I've become less blasé about p0rn and absolutely refuse to deal with that crap again. 

Btw, I was an avid p0rn user and sharer and exposed to it before my teenage years, so it's not like I'm some prude wagging my finger at horndogs.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I think the problem comes in when they start believing that porn is real life. It's worse than believing what's in a movie is real life. I'm sure there are people who can watch porn and maintain a full awareness that it isn't anything you should try to manifest in real life for the myriad of reasons, but it's an alarming number don't seem to get that. And even the ones who are realistic about it, it's still making them want to do things most women you'd marry would not do and those on the screen wouldn't do if it weren't for either coercion or money and drugs, usually all three.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think the problem comes in when they start believing that porn is real life. It's worse than believing what's in a movie is real life. I'm sure there are people who can watch porn and maintain a full awareness that it isn't anything you should try to manifest in real life for the myriad of reasons, but it's an alarming number don't seem to get that. And even the ones who are realistic about it, it's still making them want to do things most women you'd marry would not do and those on the screen wouldn't do if it weren't for either coercion or money and drugs, usually all three.


I guess I can't understand, b/c although I have seen addicts (p0rn, drugs, alcohol) up close, I've never had the urges.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I think with kids accessing porn now at young ages I’m actually pretty worried about how people will ever have normal marital sex lives. Just wait until the VR technology gets better… it’ll be all over for marriage.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

TXTrini said:


> It's been truly disturbing to see all of the threads lately of lazy duds whacking off to cam girls or "Instagram models" instead of doing their unhappy wives or decisively dealing with any relationship issues.
> 
> Heck, I lived it and still can't wrap my head around it. Thankfully it's no longer a personal issue, but I've become less blasé about p0rn and absolutely refuse to deal with that crap again.
> 
> Btw, I was an avid p0rn user and sharer and exposed to it before my teenage years, so it's not like I'm some prude wagging my finger at horndogs.


I don't think you have to be a prude to recognize the destructive nature of porn.

It's like saying give kids candy chalk full of sugar and artificial ingredients. If they are healthy. It won't hurt healthy kids.

FYI there isn't body that needs that. Do some make it to adulthood without being obese. Sure but it still doesn't make the candy a good idea.

That's what you always see with porn. I use it and it hasn't effected me. (sure, what they mean is they don't see a negative impact but if it didn't effect then it wouldn't be watched).


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> I don't think you have to be a prude to recognize the destructive nature of porn.
> 
> It's like saying give kids candy chalk full of sugar and artificial ingredients. If they are healthy. It won't hurt healthy kids.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you said, the trouble is people aren't always 100% healthy and the insidious nature of it can really get you before you realize how far you've slipped. When I realized the direction my viewing was taking, I stopped.

The clutched pearl reaction some men have to anyone who talks negatively about it makes me wonder if people think anyone who views it negatively is a prude, hence the disclaimer.

Anyway, I wonder if that general acceptance of p0rn has influenced how we conduct relationships. It used to be that strip clubs was no big deal, boys will be boys. Girls who want to please said boys and want to "look cool" compromise their boundaries and accept the unacceptable.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I wish more people would not put up with it in their marriage. I would far rather be single that with a porn user. Its so disrespectful to a spouse to watch it. I could never treat Mr D that way.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> I guess I can't understand, b/c although I have seen addicts (p0rn, drugs, alcohol) up close, I've never had the urges.


Just as drugs and alcohol substance abuse is an escape from reality, so is porn addiction.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I already posted this definition on a related thread, but it looks like it could be of some use here as well. 

"The American Society of Addiction Medicine (ASAM) defines addiction as a chronic disease that affects the brain's reward, motivation, and memory functions. *Someone with an addiction will crave a substance or other behavioral habits. They'll often ignore other areas of life to fulfill or support..."*


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I wish more people would not put up with it in their marriage. I would far rather be single that with a porn user. Its so disrespectful to a spouse to watch it. I could never treat Mr D that way.


I wish I chose that earlier, it would have saved me a lot of wasted time in a sexless marriage.

However, when I complained about my ex's p0rn use, he told me it was "normal" - all guys used porn and I believed him. When I pointed out we were sexless b/c he was always too tired, too stressed, too full, had a headache, etc etc, he told me I was "too much work" and it was easier for him to rub one out on the toilet or in the shower than to have sex with me.

I should have left at that point, it would have saved a lot of time and grief. The things we do for love and from fear... Anyway, I actually met a man who doesn't watch much porn and doesn't think I'm "too much work" and gives me his sexual energy instead of wasting it on pixels and random cam prossys. 

Btw, big shoutout to the men who speak up about the dangers of p0rn and don't follow the crowd.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TXTrini said:


> I wish I chose that earlier, it would have saved me a lot of wasted time in a sexless marriage.
> 
> However, when I complained about my ex's p0rn use, he told me it was "normal" - all guys used porn and I believed him. When I pointed out we were sexless b/c he was always too tired, too stressed, too full, had a headache, etc etc, he told me I was "too much work" and it was easier for him to rub one out on the toilet or in the shower than to have sex with me.
> 
> ...


Yes it's good that some men actually recognise the dangers and don't watch it. Sadly there are more who just go with the flow.
Good for you that you did stand up to it.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> I don't think you have to be a prude to recognize the destructive nature of porn.
> 
> It's like saying give kids candy chalk full of sugar and artificial ingredients. If they are healthy. It won't hurt healthy kids.
> 
> FYI there isn't body that needs that. Do some make it to adulthood without being obese. Sure but it still doesn't make the candy a good idea.


That's a pretty good analogy. But all it shows is that too much of anything is bad for you. I don't think that anyone outside of an addict will claim that there is not such a thing as too much and a problem level. 



> That's what you always see with porn. I use it and it hasn't effected me. (sure, what they mean is they don't see a negative impact but if it didn't effect then it wouldn't be watched).


Everything has an effect, since as you pointed out, if it didn't then it wouldn't be continued. Whether or not the effect is positive or negative or neutral is a subjective view.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> As heartbreaking as it is for these wives to be replaced by porn/prostitutes- they really should gather proof and then just divorce the cheater and hire the best lawyer possible. I mean, you can’t rehabilitate men that are this far gone.


I agree. Hookers are a given, but I also believe men who prefer porn and masturbation to having sex with a real woman will not change. There is something IN THEM, in their minds, that I have never seen switch back to preferring real sex.

I am NOT talking about men who are using porn because their needs aren't being met -- I am talking about men who's needs ARE for porn, and who prefer that to a willing partner who desires intimacy with them.

I have never seen any man like that choose real sex.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Yes it's good that some men actually recognise the dangers and don't watch it. Sadly there are more who just go with the flow.
> Good for you that you did stand up to it.


I didn't though, I took it for years. He traded it for other addictions.

Maybe it's fine for most people, but it's definitely kryptonite for people who ar susceptible to addictions.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> I agree. Hookers are a given, but I also believe men who prefer porn and masturbation to having sex with a real woman will not change. There is something IN THEM, in their minds, that I have never seen switch back to preferring real sex.
> 
> I am NOT talking about men who are using porn because their needs aren't being met -- I am talking about men who's needs ARE for porn, and who prefer that to a willing partner who desires intimacy with them.
> 
> I have never seen any man like that choose real sex.


I agree to an extent, Lisa. They will refuse sex with that current partner and never have sex with them again. In my case, the perp found another person on the side and strung me along instead of giving me the ILYBNILWY speech. In that thread, poster's H is banging hookers and leaving her wanting when he has a willing wife.

Any time I hear about women whose husbands won't touch them, my radar goes up that uh oh, he's found someone else and feeding you enough to keep you there. 

That second scenario is a whole different thing, and I get it. Though I can't understand how p0rn and masturbation are satisfying long-term when you're in a relationship. It always left me feeling empty and sad, I much prefer sharing intimacy with a partner.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

TXTrini said:


> I agree to an extent, Lisa. They will refuse sex with that current partner and never have sex with them again. In my case, the perp found another person on the side and strung me along instead of giving me the ILYBNILWY speech. In that thread, poster's H is banging hookers and leaving her wanting when he has a willing wife.
> 
> Any time I hear about women whose husbands won't touch them, my radar goes up that uh oh, he's found someone else and feeding you enough to keep you there.
> 
> That second scenario is a whole different thing, and I get it. Though I can't understand how p0rn and masturbation are satisfying long-term when you're in a relationship. It always left me feeling empty and sad, I much prefer sharing intimacy with a partner.


Well, if I'm upset or mad with my partner (depending on what I'm mad about) yet horny I'll be rubbing one off rather than touching her even if I know she would be willing and it would end the fight.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

@CatholicDad

I know  But not all topics fought about can be resolved (at least on my end) by makeup sex.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Well, if I'm upset or mad with my partner (depending on what I'm mad about) yet horny I'll be rubbing one off rather than touching her even if I know she would be willing and it would end the fight.


I'm saying this with much love and fondness...
It sounds like you have some issues to fix before you're in another relationship, that's extremely hurtful and manipulative behavior.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

TXTrini said:


> I'm saying this with much love and fondness...
> It sounds like you have some issues to fix before you're in another relationship, that's extremely hurtful and manipulative behavior.


And you think the behavior and fights aren't hurtful and manipulative themselves? I was almost never the one to start them.

But yeah next time if there ever is a next time I should just split and run.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> I agree. Hookers are a given, but I also believe men who prefer porn and masturbation to having sex with a real woman will not change. There is something IN THEM, in their minds, that I have never seen switch back to preferring real sex.
> 
> I am NOT talking about men who are using porn because their needs aren't being met -- I am talking about men who's needs ARE for porn, and who prefer that to a willing partner who desires intimacy with them.
> 
> I have never seen any man like that choose real sex.


The problem is that the porn starts innocently and is just supplemental to marital sex. As the resentments start (every marriage has them) men eventually find themselves turning more to porn (I.e @RandomDude post above). As age/health/performance issues creep in- causes more trouble and more retreats into porn. Pretty soon, wifey is just an unpaid cook and maid and hubby is bedding someone nice or if no game has 100% settled for porn and completely trained his body on porn (can’t get it up with wifey even if he wants to). That’s what I think is going on with some of these “marriages”…. Porn is a process that always leads to marital destruction.

Plus, we’ve all seen that porn may also lead to some, shall we say, unnatural and unfulfilling kinks/fetishes that most wives are not exactly dying to participate in.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> @CatholicDad
> 
> I know  But not all topics fought about can be resolved (at least on my end) by makeup sex.


Of course, some problems are never resolved however they sure are easy to ignore if the sex is good. 😆 

Agree?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

CatholicDad said:


> Of course, some problems are never resolved however they sure are easy to ignore if the sex is good. 😆
> 
> Agree?


Nope. Even after makeup sex it feels like rug sweeping.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> And you think the behavior and fights aren't hurtful and manipulative themselves? I was almost never the one to start them.
> 
> But yeah next time if there ever is a next time I should just split and run.


Quite frankly, That sounds like a petulant teenager's response. 

Why the need for fights? Have a conversation. If your partner resorts to those tactics, obviously they're immature and not ready for an adult relationship.

You know, despite being married to a man who was mentally a teenager for so long, we didn't fight. We argued, sometimes he stonewalled me and gave me the silent treatment. I left him alone until he came to me and we talked. Of course, that relationship didn't end well, but that's probably b/c he was a cowardly conflict-avoidant little ****.

Current partner, no fights, and boy do we butt heads sometimes, especially if there's a cultural misunderstanding. Adults can disagree and argue without fighting. We talk after a small cooling-off period and resolve things. Sex is not a weapon.

Btw, my idea of fighting is when people display obvious anger, raise their voices and say hurtful things to cause pain.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

RandomDude said:


> Well, if I'm upset or mad with my partner (depending on what I'm mad about) yet horny I'll be rubbing one off rather than touching her even if I know she would be willing and it would end the fight.


And here we have it.....

Now compound that with an overall, non situational general dislike, resentment, or disdain for that particular woman and you can imagine how that guy is going to default to that (or a prostitute or AP) over the long haul...

Women can't seem to understand this (some women)....They think that no matter what they do, how they act, what they look like, how they groom themselves, etc ,,,as long as they are willng, any guy should be game to have sex with them over anyone or anything else...Just not the case...And it's proven time and again, when those guys move on from those women and have no issues in the bedroom..

While I have no doubt that there are some(few) guys that have intimacy issues or are just plain weird, that actually prefer images and their right hand, to live bodies and those guys probably are in fact damaged and need help or maybe beyond help.. However, for the most part, these "other" guys(the overwhelming majority) aren't as "damaged" as some women are thinking they are...They just figured out a way to get by, without further complicating their lives.. Put them in a different situation, with a different and more compatible woman, and all those negative traits instantly disappear...

Guys are typically good at compartmentalizing aspects of their lives...If their wife gained 75 lbs and is no longer sexy to them, or they are a nagging pain in the ass, lazy, whatever negative you want, but they like everything else and their lives are generally good, they have a nice family/kids, whatever, they avoid that crushing conversation that they would have to have(which would likely kill the marriage anyway)., and take the path of least resistance...

It's admittedly a controversial position, but I believe part of this has to do with the aspect that most sexual relationships in humans have a built in "expiration date"....That was programmed into us when we evolved as a species for diversity and propagation of the gene pool.. Of course this is a theory on my part, but seeing as sexual problems are so common, it does make some sense.. This is not an exclusively male issue, as we see women all the time, refusing sex with a particular guy they have been with or at best laying there like a starfish, then becoming raging sexual animals once with a new guy...It may affect males more, as males are the main purveyors of higher levels of testosterone...but this is not gender specific..

I have learned that if you are a sexual person, or someone that has a natural HD, then the best way to prevent problems is to select a partner very carefully, paying particular attention to sexual chemistry... If you don't then you will likely be one of the people creating fake boogie man excuses and left wondering why either you or your partner can't stand to be with you, in a sexual sense...Perhaps rather than calling them damaged, just accept the simple fact that you both weren't meant to be together in the first place, or your initial attraction/compatibility wasn't strong enough to thwart or delay the built in "expiration date"...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> Well, if I'm upset or mad with my partner (depending on what I'm mad about) yet horny I'll be rubbing one off rather than touching her even if I know she would be willing and it would end the fight.


This is very unloving.

You haven't really been painting a very flattering picture of yourself as a partner.
Maybe you believe your actions are justified, but most of them will damage any connection your partner feels for you.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

TXTrini said:


> Quite frankly, That sounds like a petulant teenager's response.
> 
> Why the need for fights? Have a conversation. If your partner resorts to those tactics, obviously they're immature and not ready for an adult relationship.
> 
> ...


Why the need for fights? Ask my exs, I'm always the happy one.

And you think I withdrew sex as a weapon? I don't withdraw sex to hurt her or for a fight, I withdraw sex because I'm simply not in the mood to F her.
That's it. No hidden agenda.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

hamadryad said:


> And here we have it.....
> 
> Now compound that with an overall, non situational general dislike, resentment, or disdain for that particular woman and you can imagine how that guy is going to default to that (or a prostitute or AP) over the long haul...
> 
> ...


Then those men should F-ing LEAVE and find someone who excites them and makes them happy, and stop lying, hiding, gaslighting, and wasting their current partner's time.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

hamadryad said:


> And here we have it.....
> 
> Now compound that with an overall, non situational general dislike, resentment, or disdain for that particular woman and you can imagine how that guy is going to default to that (or a prostitute or AP) over the long haul...
> 
> ...


So some men can be conflict-avoidant comfort-diggers instead of gold-diggers. 

It sure would save lots of trouble if people were honest with themselves and their partners.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

hamadryad said:


> And here we have it.....
> 
> Now compound that with an overall, non situational general dislike, resentment, or disdain for that particular woman and you can imagine how that guy is going to default to that (or a prostitute or AP) over the long haul...
> 
> ...


QFT!
But of course I'm damaged and need help


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Why the need for fights? Ask my exs, I'm always the happy one.
> 
> And you think I withdrew sex as a weapon? I don't withdraw sex to hurt her or for a fight, I withdraw sex because I'm simply not in the mood to F her.
> That's it. No hidden agenda.


Have you asked them why they needed to fight? The "always happy" one can sometimes be the one who has no problem with the status quo because it doesn't affect them and can't be bothered by anyone else's feelings.

Look, I don't know you, or the dynamics of your relationships, you're the only one who can self-analyze to see how you can do/be better.

I had a very painful self-evaluation, and am very much a work-in-progress. I know myself enough to know that I cannot deal above board with a conflict-avoiding partner or a yes man. I need someone who's not afraid to be honest with me, even if it's to say potentially hurtful things to me about myself.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

TXTrini said:


> So some men can be conflict-avoidant comfort-diggers instead of gold-diggers.
> 
> It sure would save lots of trouble if people were honest with themselves and their partners.


We were honest, we fought about the same issue for 3 years. Of course it ruined us in the end as we could not find a solution.

Some relationships have to run their course, sometimes you have to exhaust all possible options before you decide it's time to give up.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> QFT!
> But of course I'm damaged and need help


What's the big deal about needing help sometimes? Do you think anyone is perfect?? Stubbornness can really hurt you, don't ask me how I know.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> So some men can be conflict-avoidant comfort-diggers instead of gold-diggers.
> 
> It sure would save lots of trouble if people were honest with themselves and their partners.


Sure, but that pendulum swings both ways....You can also count yourself in that avoidant category, because you say you put up with it for years...You should have left, no?

Part of the problem is most men have been conditioned from practically birth, that you can never be critical of a woman...No matter what...You know that running joke about what to say when a woman asks you if the dress makes her look fat, right?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

TXTrini said:


> Have you asked them why they needed to fight? The "always happy" one can sometimes be the one who has no problem with the status quo because it doesn't affect them and can't be bothered by anyone else's feelings.
> 
> Look, I don't know you, or the dynamics of your relationships, you're the only one who can self-analyze to see how you can do/be better.
> 
> I had a very painful self-evaluation, and am very much a work-in-progress. I know myself enough to know that I cannot deal above board with a conflict-avoiding partner or a yes man. I need someone who's not afraid to be honest with me, even if it's to say potentially hurtful things to me about myself.


I already over-analysed the whole breakup last year and the underlying issue of our relationship in regards to her expectations and my ability to meet them.

I did as best I could, could I have done better? Yes, I could have been less conflict-adverse. I loved unconditionally and accepted too much of her flaws when it did not just affect me but affected us as a whole. But quite frankly I think her age has always been a bug for me, I couldn't love her any other way, if I loved her conditionally and held her up to expectations I feared tampering with her evolving and maturing self.

Eventually she evolved and matured without me and overall it was a healthier outcome for her IMO.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> We were honest, we fought about the same issue for 3 years. Of course it ruined us in the end as we could not find a solution.
> 
> Some relationships have to run their course, sometimes you have to exhaust all possible options before you decide it's time to give up.


You just answered your own question. Yes, leave if the issues can't be resolved. What's the point in endless fighting that degenerates into nastiness? At least you tried and now you know that issue is a dealbreaker before you commit to someone else.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

TXTrini said:


> You just answered your own question. Yes, leave if the issues can't be resolved. *What's the point in endless fighting that degenerates into nastiness?* At least you tried and now you know that issue is a dealbreaker before you commit to someone else.


Love and hope.

You keep fighting for it to it's last breath and we did, no regrets. Just a whisper of a lost dream now faded away.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

hamadryad said:


> Sure, but that pendulum swings both ways....You can also count yourself in that avoidant category, because you say you put up with it for years...You should have left, no?
> 
> Part of the problem is most men have been conditioned from practically birth, that you can never be critical of a woman...No matter what...You know that running joke about what to say when a woman asks you if the dress makes her look fat, right?


Of course. Hence my post on painful self-evaluation.

Do you know why I put up with it for years? My exH begged me not to leave him when I talked about things frankly and begged for a chance to work on his issues. We went to MC and IC. If he was honest about what was going on in his head, I would have left instead of fighting so hard for so long.

Unfortunately, he lied to me, he lied to the therapist because nothing made sense until DD.

So that compartmentalization you talked about, yeah, that's a real killer to deal with as the other person.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

hamadryad said:


> Sure, but that pendulum swings both ways....You can also count yourself in that avoidant category, because you say you put up with it for years...You should have left, no?
> 
> Part of the problem is most men have been conditioned from practically birth, that you can never be critical of a woman...No matter what...You know that running joke about what to say when a woman asks you if the dress makes her look fat, right?


The problem with the generalizations you are making is that they don't fit MANY MANY men who make the choices we are discussing here. My EX had none of the hangups that you talked about in your previous post or this one. So there are no explanations and understanding about HIS motivations from your point of view. I'm sure you could be describing some men, but certainly not all.

And any man who solicits and pays a prostitute for sex while he has a willing wife at home has much larger mental and emotional issues than being conditioned not to criticize a woman.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> Of course. Hence my post on painful self-evaluation.
> 
> Do you know why I put up with it for years? My exH begged me not to leave him when I talked about things frankly and begged for a chance to work on his issues. We went to MC and IC. If he was honest about what was going on in his head, I would have left instead of fighting so hard for so long.
> 
> ...



It's been my experience that guys tend to feel like when it comes to a partner they "want it all"....So my guess is he took whatever good he had with you and figured he can get the rest on the street and his life would be complete as long as he could shuck and jive you, so to speak.....Classic compartmentalizing and it's what most guys do to rationalize getting APs and not divorcing altogether...O course it's damaging and cruel, but I don't think they think all about that, or they figure that they can somehow fix that later by way of more compartmentalizing..

But don't discount the aspect that guys really don't want to confront women with what bothers them...It's really hard...You may think you would like it, but if he felt it would destroy you, the natural protector comes in and stops him in his tracks...


Either way, I am glad that you are no longer dealing with it and have found someone else that makes you happy.. 😉


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> Sure, but that pendulum swings both ways....You can also count yourself in that avoidant category, because you say you put up with it for years...You should have left, no?
> 
> Part of the problem is most men have been conditioned from practically birth, that you can never be critical of a woman...No matter what...You know that running joke about what to say when a woman asks you if the dress makes her look fat, right?


Are you always this laser focused on gender?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

TXTrini said:


> Do you know why I put up with it for years? My exH begged me not to leave him when I talked about things frankly and begged for a chance to work on his issues. We went to MC and IC. If he was honest about what was going on in his head, I would have left instead of fighting so hard for so long.


Ex and I didn't have that. We had that fight, then we thought up a solution, didn't work - another fight, another solution. It went on and on. We tried to work through it. We loved each other so we just kept trying until we did exactly what we agreed on all those years ago:

"Let us just keep trying until one of us gives up or falls out of love." Love wasn't enough no matter how hard we tried though.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

QuietRiot said:


> Are you always this laser focused on gender?


What do you care?

Go figure, a guy giving a male perspective....what a concept,,,,(the meme was a joke...let it go already)


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

hamadryad said:


> It's been my experience that guys tend to feel like when it comes to a partner they "want it all"....So my guess is he took whatever good he had with you and figured he can get the rest on the street and his life would be complete as long as he could shuck and jive you, so to speak.....Classic compartmentalizing and it's what most guys do to rationalize getting APs and not divorcing altogether...O course it's damaging and cruel, but I don't think they think all about that, or they figure that they can somehow fix that later by way of more compartmentalizing..
> 
> But don't discount the aspect that guys really don't want to confront women with what bothers them...It's really hard...You may think you would like it, but if he felt it would destroy you, the natural protector comes in and stops him in his tracks...
> 
> ...


I don't understand the "want it all" mentality, to me, that's completely irrational, unrealistic and self-defeating. I know everything I want in 1 man isn't possible, heck, if I was the poly type, I'd probably be happiest with a stable 😂. 

Jokes aside, yes, my bf and I have bared things that weren't pretty. It was very uncomfortable and painful. Yes, I thought he was an asshole right then, but then I realized I was free to unleash my assholishness too and not be the perfect lady, always considerate of everyone else's feelings but my own. 

You know what is amazing? That brought us really close together, it's been great to relax and enjoy being in love. Although I am happy with him, what makes me happy is communication and authenticity. 

Thank you for the good wishes. I feel very lucky to have another chance at the life I wanted, even if it's unfolding in a different way to what I imagined.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Ex and I didn't have that. We had that fight, then we thought up a solution, didn't work - another fight, another solution. It went on and on. We tried to work through it. We loved each other so we just kept trying until we did exactly what we agreed on all those years ago:
> 
> "Let us just keep trying until one of us gives up or falls out of love." Love wasn't enough no matter how hard we tried though.


I understand too well, it's why I kept trying. I'm glad (for both of you), you had enough integrity to not cheat but hold true to that agreement.

Keep the lesson you learned in mind when you meet someone who knocks your socks off and try to avoid getting carried away by hormones.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> Anyway, I wonder if that general acceptance of p0rn has influenced how we conduct relationships. It used to be that strip clubs was no big deal, boys will be boys. Girls who want to please said boys and want to "look cool" compromise their boundaries and accept the unacceptable.


I worked in a place with a lot of guys including married ones who would head off to the strip club after the bar at the end of the work day. I used to hang and even instigate the bar but never went to the strip clubs.

In my advanced age I can’t even hang with the bar. 

My wife doesn’t like having sex with me if I have been drinking so I have dialed it way way back and do not drink during the work week at all.

Porn is similar. I can really only go maybe 2x a day in average at this point in my life and the hand and the Kleenex for one of more of those times is lousy when I have the real thing! Again it’s one of those “keep your eye on the prize” things and then you make the right call.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> I worked in a place with a lot of guys including married ones who would head off to the strip club after the bar at the end of the work day. I used to hang and even instigate the bar but never went to the strip clubs.
> 
> In my advanced age I can’t even hang with the bar.
> 
> ...


I'm sure she liked that you respected your marriage enough not to go with the others and didn't give in to the "boys will be boys crew".

Did any of them try to shame you for not going?


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> What do you care?
> 
> Go figure, a guy giving a male perspective....what a concept,,,,(the meme was a joke...let it go already)


Simple question. You’re… interesting.


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## 6daily (12 mo ago)

LisaDiane said:


> And any man who solicits and pays a prostitute for sex


I was in a relationship for 4 years until my girlfriend started cheating on me with a rich sugar daddy who was 25 years older, I'll skip the details

The pain leaves deep, very worry after 4 years of relationship, of course I immediately went to a hooker in a Bar

She just laughed your girlfriend left you for a sugar daddy grandpa, I like you, after spend first night together we had condomless sex every day for the next few weeks after she finished working as a hooker at night.

Then I had to go to Singapore for a few days and then to China for several weeks for business

She didn't want to say goodbye, cried, do you want girlfriend, then I'll stop working as a hooker immediately ? so I had bought 2 plane tickets in her name, she left with me without saying goodbye to anyone,...we stay together for 8 years now

Finally: and my ex girlfriend didn't have long luck with her sugar daddy, he left her later....lol


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

6daily said:


> I was in a relationship for 4 years until my girlfriend started cheating on me with a rich sugar daddy who was 25 years older, I'll skip the details
> 
> The pain leaves deep after 4 years of relationship, of course I immediately went to a *** in a Bar
> 
> ...


And you are boasting of this because?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> I'm sure she liked that you respected your marriage enough not to go with the others and didn't give in to the "boys will be boys crew".
> 
> Did any of them try to shame you for not going?


Of course I got called every slur for homosexual in the book and probably some new ones that aren’t in the book.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> Of course I got called every slur for homosexual in the book and probably some new ones that aren’t in the book.


That sucks. Good for you for standing your ground.

So I have a few questions for you...
What is your view of p0rn as a married man?
Did you and your wife have clear boundaries with strip clubs or what that one you had for yourself?

I'm curious because it seems many men don't understand how fundamentally disrespected their partners (even the ones who don't cheat) feel when it's hidden away and they are rejected in favor of pixels or prostitutes.

It made me feel like I could never be enough.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> That sucks. Good for you for standing your ground.
> 
> So I have a few questions for you...
> What is your view of p0rn as a married man?
> ...


Porn? If everyone has consented to it then I don’t have a moral problem with it existing.

My wife knew I watched it and spanked to it and if she cared she never said so. I think she was probably more relieved because when I was younger I really wanted to have sex several times a day and with the exception of the NRE period she could never come close to matching that drive.

I think a key component there is also maybe how I viewed it. I was more interested in the act than the woman performing the act. Solo woman porn doesn’t do it for me. 

My wife always and still believes I want her and if she was up for it I would go with her twice a day on most days. 

If I want her to wear something hot I will buy it for her, but I want to see her in it not replace a model or something. I’m not thinking of the model at all. 

I can remember going on vacation somewhere and she comes out in a swimsuit I like and instant boner. So I don’t think she ever had any kind of body image issue or anything like that where I am concerned. She knows I want her.

As for the strip clubs I just didn’t think it was appropriate and it crosses a real line as the guys I know were doing VIP and such and definitely touching. It’s also just kind of seedy and thirsty and it’s public. Someone can watch you walk in and go ah look it’s CCP he is a strip club attending scum bag. No offense to those guys, they do what they do it’s just not for me.

FWIW women, girlfriends, and wives occasionally went with the crew and they did some nutty stuff. Many HR violations.

When you cook it down I am a “basic *****” I want to have sex with my wife and that’s the zone where I feel I belong and am happy with.

So she never would have told me, “No you can’t go to the Gold Club” and she’d know because she’d see the bill and hear about it. I just didn’t want to be the person who goes to that.

I view porn somewhat in a similar way now. Do I want to be the guy watching other people having sex or do I want to be the guy having sex? Well, I pick actually having it.


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## 6daily (12 mo ago)

TXTrini said:


> And you are boasting of this because?


because I am shocked how some men cheat on their wives, treat them badly, relationship and sex problems, porn use,..
I have no problem with my wife, have been together for 8 years now, before that she worked as a hooker in a bar.

So many marriage and relationship problems, glad to have nothing like that


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> And here we have it.....
> 
> Now compound that with an overall, non situational general dislike, resentment, or disdain for that particular woman and you can imagine how that guy is going to default to that (or a prostitute or AP) over the long haul...
> 
> ...


I know no one wants to hear it but there is a lot of truth in what you said here. I don't think it's a matter of *all* guys who watch porn in a relationship are broken individuals who are irredeemable and need fixing. You're right, SOMETIMES the guy just has 0 interest in having sex with his wife for some reasons that are likely either on her or just plain incompatibility and the guy will just do what he has to do to get by. Divorce statistics alone should show that men are far less likely to walk away when things aren't so great at home. Instead, we just make the most of a bad situation and get on with our lives. It's how we think.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> Nope. Even after makeup sex it feels like rug sweeping.


So you feel better after jacking off?

… I don’t get it.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> I know no one wants to hear it but there is a lot of truth in what you said here. I don't think it's a matter of *all* guys who watch porn in a relationship are broken individuals who are irredeemable and need fixing. You're right, SOMETIMES the guy just has 0 interest in having sex with his wife for some reasons that are likely either on her or just plain incompatibility and the guy will just do what he has to do to get by. Divorce statistics alone should show that men are far less likely to walk away when things aren't so great at home. Instead, we just make the most of a bad situation and get on with our lives. It's how we think.


It's not that people don't want to hear it (me anyway). I simply think it's stupid and selfish. Why don't they just pull the plug and stop making everyone around them miserable??


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

6daily said:


> because I am shocked how some men cheat on their wives, treat them badly, relationship and sex problems, porn use,..
> I have no problem with my wife, have been together for 8 years now, before that she worked as a hooker in a bar.
> 
> So many marriage and relationship problems, glad to have nothing like that


Some folks might say the same about your marriage. I personally would not date, much less marry an escort. 

Good luck to you.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> I'm saying this with much love and fondness...
> It sounds like you have some issues to fix before you're in another relationship, that's extremely hurtful and manipulative behavior.


So people who have their emotions attached to sex I don't think what he said is unreasonable. I'm certainly not about to have sex with someone when I'm real pissed off at them.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> It's not that people don't want to hear it (me anyway). I simply think it's stupid and selfish. Why don't they just pull the plug and stop making everyone around them miserable??


"For better, for worse..." Those are the marriage vows. Statistics indicate that in the USA at least, men seem far less likely to walk away from a marriage than women do. I'm divorced now and I was miserable when married to the ex wife but I wouldn't have left, she had to make that choice. A lot of guys have the mentality like I mentioned where we just make the best of things. I don't see that as selfish, quite the opposite. If one is unhappy in their marriage, walking away seems the more selfish decision to me, especially when marriage vows, kids, and everything else is being considered. There is also the fact that a lot of men get taken to the cleaners in the divorce. If your home life is relatively peaceful, why put yourself through the gut wrenching experience of divorce when you know you will probably still end up supporting your ex wife if you walk away? 

I'm gonna put this out there too, and I know this won't go over well either lol. As a disclaimer, I am not saying this is ALL ladies, but it's a few.

I have known/met/dated a significant amount of women that seem to have this mentality that they can legit do no wrong. Like they are somehow exempt from putting in effort. Ladies with lackluster bedroom skills. Ladies who gain a HUGE amount of weight but instead of seeing it as a problem, they just say real men love curves. Ladies who act any kind of way but then say "men ain't sh*t." They can walk around with a mental illness or two that makes them difficult to deal with as well. In all of that, her guy still needs to find her sexy and please her in the bedroom or HE is the problem.

I'm not tryin to hate on you ladies here. I know there are guys that are addicted to porn and have almost rewired their brain to get off via porn instead of ladies. I've read enough about it to know it's a thing. I'm just saying that that's isn't the only thing going on. I still remember working construction and some of those guys hated going home just to get nagged to death by their wife that gained 80 pounds in the last 10 years. You think those guys went home to have satisfying sex? I doubt it lol. But no one wants to walk away and pay alimony/child support either, so what do they do? Have a drink at the bar.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> I worked in a place with a lot of guys including married ones who would head off to the strip club after the bar at the end of the work day. I used to hang and even instigate the bar but never went to the strip clubs.
> 
> In my advanced age I can’t even hang with the bar.
> 
> ...


You know it's funny, when I was young and dating, I was almost always drinking on dates and when I had sex. But then sometime in my thirties, I got real turned off by a drunk f buddy I known for years who was a morning drinking alcoholic. Maybe it was what he drank or just that he drank so much, but at that time I just noticed his skin started to taste and smell sour and spongy, and I know it was the constant alcohol. We had already dated when we were both finally single at the same time and fizzled. And we didn't have any big thing going with getting together at all and it was really strictly if we ran into each other and had nothing better to do. 

It made me wonder about myself because I always was drinking usually champagne or sometimes wine. It just made me wonder if anyone ever was thinking that about me. I stopped having sex with him and just avoided him if I saw him out in public. I felt kind of bad about it but I didn't want to have to explain myself. I knew he wasn't going to quit.. even if he had, our personalities weren't right to have a big relationship. 

And of course there's plenty of times when someone is just drinking something different than you are and you don't like the taste of their mouth or whatever.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> "For better, for worse..." Those are the marriage vows. Statistics indicate that in the USA at least, men seem far less likely to walk away from a marriage than women do. I'm divorced now and I was miserable when married to the ex wife but I wouldn't have left, she had to make that choice. A lot of guys have the mentality like I mentioned where we just make the best of things. I don't see that as selfish, quite the opposite. If one is unhappy in their marriage, walking away seems the more selfish decision to me, especially when marriage vows, kids, and everything else is being considered. There is also the fact that a lot of men get taken to the cleaners in the divorce. If your home life is relatively peaceful, why put yourself through the gut wrenching experience of divorce when you know you will probably still end up supporting your ex wife if you walk away?
> 
> I'm gonna put this out there too, and I know this won't go over well either lol. As a disclaimer, I am not saying this is ALL ladies, but it's a few.
> 
> ...


For better or worse does not exist in a vacuum, what's the point in honoring one vow and not all vows?

My question is directed to men who stay married while miserable and ignore their wives in favor of 3rd parties (escorts, cam prossies, AP). 

Did you cheat on your wife?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> This is very unloving.
> 
> You haven't really been painting a very flattering picture of yourself as a partner.
> Maybe you believe your actions are justified, but most of them will damage any connection your partner feels for you.


I can kind of understand where he is coming from though I might have developed some tools as I'm not in danger of ending my 30+ year relationship with Mrs Conan. I'm only talking about masturbating and not porn.

I never use to be able to have angry sex. Mrs. C can and actually likes it but I just didn't use to be able to have sex when I was upset with her or in an unresolved conflict with her.
It actually took a life altering incident to change that about me.

After the incident, I developed ED which turned out to be purely psychological.

The only way I could overcome it was to treat Mrs. C like a wanton piece of lady flesh in the bedroom, to be used and discarded in my mind.

It was not pretty in my head but Mrs. C loved it and we restored our faltering intimacy.

Emotions are important to a lot of men regarding sex even though we are supposed to be like sexual sharks, just wanting to feed.

I do agree with you that rubbing one off instead of giving your spouse intimacy is not healthy but unresolved conflict is a serious block.

Since my experience, I'm definitely in the camp of "just have sex" because it does help connections and intimacy.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> Porn? If everyone has consented to it then I don’t have a moral problem with it existing.
> 
> My wife knew I watched it and spanked to it and if she cared she never said so. I think she was probably more relieved because when I was younger I really wanted to have sex several times a day and with the exception of the NRE period she could never come close to matching that drive.
> 
> ...


That's reasonable and exactly why I used p0rn. Hmm, I guess I'm a basic ***** too 😂 

Thanks for sharing your experience, it really is nice to know there are still men who think like you.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> For better or worse does not exist in a vacuum, what's the point in honoring one vow and not all vows?
> 
> My question is directed to men who stay married while miserable and ignore their wives in favor of 3rd parties (escorts, cam prossies, AP).
> 
> Did you cheat on your wife?


I didn't cheat but I did get used to porn instead of her for a while there. For some of the reasons I stated above. She was sexy when I met her, but by the time we got separated she had gained 80 or so pounds. She started to have knee problems so her bedroom activities became limited to me doing all the work always. Have you ever known a guy to successfully come to his wife or GF about her losing weight and get some results? The only brave souls I have known to try such a thing just ended up looking like the bad guy. There were other issues and we tried to work on them but it never worked out so she decided we should divorce. 

I think it just comes down to men and women being different. I think ladies are far more likely to walk away if things aren't going the way they like. Men, we learn to deal with crap we don't like and just put it out of our mind.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It made me wonder about myself because I always was drinking usually champagne or sometimes wine.


So I like drinking, especially on the weekend. I go to bed early so I’m normally done by about 3pm, I like to drink at brunch. Unfortunately the alcohol turns me into the long lasting champ and it’s too much for her. So on Sunday I cut myself off way early because I wanted to have quality sex. A small price to pay!


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> I didn't cheat but I did get used to porn instead of her for a while there. For some of the reasons I stated above. She was sexy when I met her, but by the time we got separated she had gained 80 or so pounds. She started to have knee problems so her bedroom activities became limited to me doing all the work always. Have you ever known a guy to successfully come to his wife or GF about her losing weight and get some results? The only brave souls I have known to try such a thing just ended up looking like the bad guy. There were other issues and we tried to work on them but it never worked out so she decided we should divorce.
> 
> I think it just comes down to men and women being different. I think ladies are far more likely to walk away if things aren't going the way they like. Men, we learn to deal with crap we don't like and just put it out of our mind.


Interesting. Did you tell her you weren't attracted to her anymore or did she have to figure that out for herself?

I've had medical issues for the last decade, my weight fluctuates +- 20 lbs depending on what's going on. Btw, 80 lbs ain't pretty on men either, my ex with no medical issues gained 85 lbs and a huge belly which didn't disappear after he lost 65 lbs. He ate x3 times as much as most other men in my life and drank heavily (discovered that later on). I lost/regained the 20-25lbs a few times over our marriage, but nothing changed in the sex department. 

Anyway, my bf and I both gained weight over the last year since we started dating, and it hasn't affected his attraction. We're actively watching our diets and making great efforts not to sabotage each other's efforts. So yes, we've talked about it and all the good things that will come of getting fit together. Thankfully I have less to lose this time around but it's nice not to feel bitterness radiating my way or judgy eyeballs.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

At one time, when younger, I objected to prostitution because of the diseases it is likely many have just based on the number of encounters. I wouldn't want to share a toothbrush with 100 other men or even 1 either.

Now I also object because of the brutality of the lives these girls live, and that their wages are stolen from them by pimps, criminals and organizations. I feel that people who would condemn slavery and yet go to prostitutes are enabling slavery.

I think the shame is on the johns who patronize prostitutes not the girls themselves.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> So people who have their emotions attached to sex I don't think what he said is unreasonable. I'm certainly not about to have sex with someone when I'm real pissed off at them.


I get it. Maybe I should have phrased my question better.

It read like "I'm gonna sit here in my corner and not do anything until you apologize" It reminded my of the cold shoulder treatment I got every time I stepped out of line.

@RandomDude Don't mistake me, I am not excusing bad behavior on your ex's part. Maybe not much time passed between said argument and opportunity for sex. I've never experienced makeup sex myself, so couldn't say how I'd feel in your position.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> At one time, when younger, I objected to prostitution because of the diseases it is likely many have just based on the number of encounters. I wouldn't want to share a toothbrush with 100 other men or even 1 either.
> 
> Now I also object because of the brutality of the lives these girls live, and that their wages are stolen from them by pimps, criminals and organizations. I feel that people who would condemn slavery and yet go to prostitutes are enabling slavery.
> 
> I think the shame is on the johns who patronize prostitutes not the girls themselves.


At the end of the day it just doesn't seem right, does it?

To treat another person as a commodity.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> *Interesting. Did you tell her you weren't attracted to her anymore or did she have to figure that out for herself?*
> 
> I've had medical issues for the last decade, my weight fluctuates +- 20 lbs depending on what's going on. Btw, 80 lbs ain't pretty on men either, my ex with no medical issues gained 85 lbs and a huge belly which didn't disappear after he lost 65 lbs. He ate x3 times as much as most other men in my life and drank heavily (discovered that later on). I lost/regained the 20-25lbs a few times over our marriage, but nothing changed in the sex department.
> 
> Anyway, my bf and I both gained weight over the last year since we started dating, and it hasn't affected his attraction. We're actively watching our diets and making great efforts not to sabotage each other's efforts. So yes, we've talked about it and all the good things that will come of getting fit together. Thankfully I have less to lose this time around but it's nice not to feel bitterness radiating my way or judgy eyeballs.


If I had, how well do you think that would have worked out? Honestly. Just like @hamadryad said, conversations like that just kill marriages. I tried to go about it the way you and your BF do now, where we tried to be healthy together, and I ended up getting pretty fit but she stayed the same because she refused to do anything. There were other problems too, she just kinda became a pain to deal with since she lied all the time and even her personality seemed to completely change over time. Again, like we mentioned before though, a lot of guys just kinda learn to deal with that sort of crap and get on with their lives. In retrospect, I honestly should have just demanded better and walked out myself but I was a younger guy who took my marriage vows too seriously, evidently. 

No one is perfect. I gained weight when married too. My ex wife gained so much that many sexual positions were too painful because of the bad knee that was also caused by her weight gain. This wasn't "relationship weight" that a lot of people put on, she just got fatter and fatter because she got a more sedentary job, she had a poor diet, and she refused to exercise. Oddly enough, after we got separated she lost all that weight and looked better than she had since she was 19 years old. Funny how that works out. Either way, I wouldn't judge a girl for a bit of a weight gain, but when the only thing you can do in the bedroom is lay back because you got too fat...maybe it's time for some changes. 

With all that said, I still don't condone dudes banging hookers or whatever on the side. If I could go back, I never would have married the girl to begin with, so that problem would have been solved. I do understand why some guys might just turn to porn though. Not saying it's right, I'm just saying I get it. I've seen a lot of guys that would do almost anything to avoid going home and dealing with their wife. They never tried for divorce though.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> Porn? If everyone has consented to it then I don’t have a moral problem with it existing.
> 
> My wife knew I watched it and spanked to it and if she cared she never said so. I think she was probably more relieved because when I was younger I really wanted to have sex several times a day and with the exception of the NRE period she could never come close to matching that drive.
> 
> ...


Isn’t porn really just as bad as strip clubs- philosophically speaking? I mean, isn’t it? I’d say these activities are actually pretty similar… two cents here.

Further, isn’t this reasoning that gets the sex cam guys in trouble… they justify that “it’s no worse than porn”. 🤔

Don’t all these lines we cross morally just make the next (wrong) step a little easier to take? 🤔


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

CatholicDad said:


> Don’t all these lines we cross morally just make the next (wrong) step a little easier to take? 🤔


Sure....but why not take it even a step further.??...

With all the technology today, you can put your wife at ease by placing a device that gauges the amount of blood flowing to your penis...It could notify your wife via a text message each time this event occurs, so that she can monitor all of your levels of sexual excitability so she can positively identify the times when you are thinking of the woman's nice melons you noticed while at the market or the neighbor who got her t shirt wet while watering her petunias


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

CatholicDad said:


> Isn’t porn really just as bad as strip clubs- philosophically speaking? I mean, isn’t it? I’d say these activities are actually pretty similar… two cents here.
> 
> Further, isn’t this reasoning that gets the sex cam guys in trouble… they justify that “it’s no worse than porn”. 🤔
> 
> Don’t all these lines we cross morally just make the next (wrong) step a little easier to take? 🤔


They are and they aren’t. Strip club = real person + touching. Cam girl, interactive but no touching. Porn is non interactive and the performer is unaware of the viewer.

So I’d say they’re not the same.

However they are the same in that they’re all sex work and if you believe it’s rotten then they’re all rotten.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> If I had, how well do you think that would have worked out? Honestly. Just like @hamadryad said, conversations like that just kill marriages. I tried to go about it the way you and your BF do now, where we tried to be healthy together, and I ended up getting pretty fit but she stayed the same because she refused to do anything. There were other problems too, she just kinda became a pain to deal with since she lied all the time and even her personality seemed to completely change over time. Again, like we mentioned before though, a lot of guys just kinda learn to deal with that sort of crap and get on with their lives. In retrospect, I honestly should have just demanded better and walked out myself but I was a younger guy who took my marriage vows too seriously, evidently.
> 
> No one is perfect. I gained weight when married too. My ex wife gained so much that many sexual positions were too painful because of the bad knee that was also caused by her weight gain. This wasn't "relationship weight" that a lot of people put on, she just got fatter and fatter because she got a more sedentary job, she had a poor diet, and she refused to exercise. Oddly enough, after we got separated she lost all that weight and looked better than she had since she was 19 years old. Funny how that works out. Either way, I wouldn't judge a girl for a bit of a weight gain, but when the only thing you can do in the bedroom is lay back because you got too fat...maybe it's time for some changes.
> 
> With all that said, I still don't condone dudes banging hookers or whatever on the side. If I could go back, I never would have married the girl to begin with, so that problem would have been solved. I do understand why some guys might just turn to porn though. Not saying it's right, I'm just saying I get it. I've seen a lot of guys that would do almost anything to avoid going home and dealing with their wife. They never tried for divorce though.


It would have produced the same end result, just a lot sooner. Look no hate from me, just an observation, as @ hamadryad observed I had my own avoidant tendencies. 

You know what this reminds me of? Men who talk about stepping up to lead in marriage, to be bold and brave and put everything on the table. A little secret... women respect men like that (I sure as heck do).

Sounds like your ex used her weight to avoid sex if she promptly dropped it at the prospect of dating others. At least you two aren't stuck in misery anyone. 

Ahhhhhhhh, all of this stuff could be avoided if people just say what they're thinking without being afraid of being the asshole!


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> Isn’t porn really just as bad as strip clubs- philosophically speaking? I mean, isn’t it? I’d say these activities are actually pretty similar… two cents here.
> 
> Further, isn’t this reasoning that gets the sex cam guys in trouble… they justify that “it’s no worse than porn”. 🤔
> 
> Don’t all these lines we cross morally just make the next (wrong) step a little easier to take? 🤔


I see your point. Moral relativism and the slippery slope... Where do we draw the line and why

It's so hard to argue against that, except, I like it, so I do it. And yes, guilty as charged.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

hamadryad said:


> Sure....but why not take it even a step further.??...
> 
> With all the technology today, you can put your wife at ease by placing a device that gauges the amount of blood flowing to your penis...It could notify your wife via a text message each time this event occurs, so that she can monitor all of your levels of sexual excitability so she can positively identify the times when you are thinking of the woman's nice melons you noticed while at the market or the neighbor who got her t shirt wet while watering her petunias


Can I buy one?

I see great potential to accurately track bonkability and get laid more 😂


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Enigma32 said:


> ...but when the only thing you can do in the bedroom is lay back because you got too fat...maybe it's time for some changes.


LOL hahaha sorry that just cracked me up hahahahaha


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> LOL hahaha sorry that just cracked me up hahahahaha


I was trying to be nice and not say anything. Bad boy!


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> They are and they aren’t. Strip club = real person + touching. Cam girl, interactive but no touching. Porn is non interactive and the performer is unaware of the viewer.
> 
> So I’d say they’re not the same.
> 
> However they are the same in that they’re all sex work and if you believe it’s rotten then they’re all rotten.


Hooters is just as bad too- and as @hamadryad points out it can be just as bad as staring at your neighbor watering petunias.


hamadryad said:


> Sure....but why not take it even a step further.??...
> 
> With all the technology today, you can put your wife at ease by placing a device that gauges the amount of blood flowing to your penis...It could notify your wife via a text message each time this event occurs, so that she can monitor all of your levels of sexual excitability so she can positively identify the times when you are thinking of the woman's nice melons you noticed while at the market or the neighbor who got her t shirt wet while watering her petunias


I’d like to patent this idea. A penis oximeter… “honey, my penis is 98% oxygenated”- 😆


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TAMAT said:


> At one time, when younger, I objected to prostitution because of the diseases it is likely many have just based on the number of encounters. I wouldn't want to share a toothbrush with 100 other men or even 1 either.
> 
> Now I also object because of the brutality of the lives these girls live, and that their wages are stolen from them by pimps, criminals and organizations. I feel that people who would condemn slavery and yet go to prostitutes are enabling slavery.
> 
> I think the shame is on the johns who patronize prostitutes not the girls themselves.


You are conflating things here. Claiming that prostitution is like slavery is the same as saying that capitalism is like slavery, and indeed that comparison has been made in the past. In reality neither is in and of themselves. Can abuses happen within them? Of course, and we see it with the sex trafficking. We have seen where capitalism has been abused and used to abuse people with labor sites that have company villages and company stores and such. But that is the difference between the system/work/whatever you want to call it, and abuses that exist within the system. Abuse can happen within anything. There are plenty of prostitutes/courtesans/sex workers out there who engage in the activity/business of their own accord and on their own terms. They are neither used nor abused per se', not in the same way as with sex trafficking. Basically, you are objecting to superstores as a whole because Wal-Mart abuses its employees. Or objecting to chain stores of any size because the international chains are abusive of their employees. Hell, let's hit closer to home and say that we should ban marriage because of all the abuse to women that happens world wide with physical abuse, spousal rape, arranged marriages, and so on.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> At the end of the day it just doesn't seem right, does it?
> 
> To treat another person as a commodity.


What do you think is happening when we trade our labor for money in the job market? Why is it different when that labor is sex instead of digging holes, or working on cars, or whatever?


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> Isn’t porn really just as bad as strip clubs- philosophically speaking? I mean, isn’t it? I’d say these activities are actually pretty similar… two cents here.
> 
> Further, isn’t this reasoning that gets the sex cam guys in trouble… they justify that “it’s no worse than porn”. 🤔
> 
> Don’t all these lines we cross morally just make the next (wrong) step a little easier to take? 🤔


Absolutely. I see them as all pretty similar in the damage they cause. 
I remember a lady I used to know whose husband was a porn user. She said that she almost wished that he had had an affair as then she only had one woman to compete with instead of thousands. I thought that was very sad.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> Men who talk about stepping up to lead in marriage, to be bold and brave and put everything on the table. A little secret... women respect men like that (I sure as heck do).


Some do and some don't. And to me this is where some of the problems today come in. Stereotyping and broad brushing. And then worse, trying to put forth that your (generalized not specifically TXTrini) view is the only standard that should be, instead of just one of many possibilities.



> Ahhhhhhhh, all of this stuff could be avoided if people just say what they're thinking without being afraid of being the asshole!


And yet when they do, like I and some others on here do, we still get called the arseholes. And while we don't care whether we are seen that way by some, it does make me wonder how many more are there here that don't speak up just because they see what happens to us.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

maquiscat said:


> And then worse, trying to put forth that your (generalized not specifically TXTrini) view is the only standard that should be, instead of just one of many possibilities.


Well there are societal norms, although they certainly change over time. For the last ten+ centuries heterosexual monogamy within marriage has been a societal norm in at least the west and banging hookers has been fringe and usually illegal in most places.

So sure there are outliers, but when one shows up they are an outlier.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> Some do and some don't. And to me this is where some of the problems today come in. Stereotyping and broad brushing. And then worse, trying to put forth that your (generalized not specifically TXTrini) view is the only standard that should be, instead of just one of many possibilities.
> 
> 
> 
> And yet when they do, like I and some others on here do, we still get called the arseholes. And while we don't care whether we are seen that way by some, it does make me wonder how many more are there here that don't speak up just because they see what happens to us.


I am sure that many think people like myself and Mr D are crazy. No porn. No sex before marriage. No violence. No anal sex. 
Strong Christians. 
Yet a great marriage. 
The thing is I am long past caring what others think of me. I wouldn't say half the stuff I do here if it bothered me.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> No anal sex.


😱


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> Well there are societal norms, although they certainly change over time. For the last ten+ centuries heterosexual monogamy within marriage has been a societal norm in at least the west and banging hookers has been fringe and usually illegal in most places.
> 
> So sure there are outliers, but when one shows up they are an outlier.


Granted, but my point is that they don't always remain outliers, but people try to suppress them by trying to claim that they are still outliers. Take TXTrini's comment about what women respect. You might as well say that all women really want to be homemakers and barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. The reality currently is that there are many women out there that do not respect a man taking lead and such, at least not for their marriage. Many never have but didn't have the ability to live their reality like they do now. And even as outliers, in a large population, say a million people, 1% is still 10,000 people. That is not insignificant. So the idea to try to paint all of a population as one thing is really trying to suppress a large number of people.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ccpowerslave said:


> 😱


🤨🤔


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> I am sure that many think people like myself and Mr D are crazy. No porn. No sex before marriage. No violence. No anal sex.
> Strong Christians.
> Yet a great marriage.


See that's the thing. Most people don't think that is crazy, even the ones like me and the other polys/opens here. Most people are of the "do what works best for you" mentality. What we do find crazy is when people try to impose what works best for them onto others. Even if it is just in the manner of ideals



> The thing is I am long past caring what others think of me. I wouldn't say half the stuff I do here if it bothered me.


There are some who would say that you say what you do because it _does _bother you. Personally I recognize both types of people exist, and I am not personally seeing you in either group per se'. I'm sure you are in one or the other, I just don't care which.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> See that's the thing. Most people don't think that is crazy, even the ones like me and the other polys/opens here. Most people are of the "do what works best for you" mentality. What we do find crazy is when people try to impose what works best for them onto others. Even if it is just in the manner of ideals
> 
> 
> There are some who would say that you say what you do because it _does _bother you. Personally I recognize both types of people exist, and I am not personally seeing you in either group per se'. I'm sure you are in one or the other, I just don't care which.


If I was worried what people thought of me I would keep quiet believe me. Especially about my faith. You can't follow Jesus if you can't take a lot of negativity and attacks. 
That follows into the moral values we hold. A lot of people think we are crazy. What no porn??? Are you gay or asexual? Everyone looks at porn. Etc.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> If I was worried what people thought of me I would keep quiet believe me. Especially about my faith. You can't follow Jesus if you can't take a lot of negativity and attacks.
> That follows into the moral values we hold. A lot of people think we are crazy. What no porn??? Are you gay or asexual? Everyone looks at porn. Etc.


That's you. As I pointed out there are just as many people who are the opposite of you that speak out because they _are _worried about what people think. It could even be said that you are in denial about why you speak out. Again, I am not saying that you are that way. Only that all that out there exists. Yes a lot of people think you are crazy, but most don't because you are doing you. People think polys are crazy. "How can you have more than one spouse? I have trouble keeping up with just one!" Most don't though.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> That's you. As I pointed out there are just as many people who are the opposite of you that speak out because they _are _worried about what people think. It could even be said that you are in denial about why you speak out. Again, I am not saying that you are that way. Only that all that out there exists. Yes a lot of people think you are crazy, but most don't because you are doing you. People think polys are crazy. "How can you have more than one spouse? I have trouble keeping up with just one!" Most don't though.


I do feel sad because I see the reason/plan for marriage being trodden on and ruined. 
I appreciate people can make their own choices but marriage is a very special covenant that is so often completely wrecked by those choices. As we see here on TAM.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> You are conflating things here. Claiming that prostitution is like slavery is the same as saying that capitalism is like slavery, and indeed that comparison has been made in the past. In reality neither is in and of themselves. Can abuses happen within them? Of course, and we see it with the sex trafficking. We have seen where capitalism has been abused and used to abuse people with labor sites that have company villages and company stores and such. But that is the difference between the system/work/whatever you want to call it, and abuses that exist within the system. Abuse can happen within anything. There are plenty of prostitutes/courtesans/sex workers out there who engage in the activity/business of their own accord and on their own terms. They are neither used nor abused per se', not in the same way as with sex trafficking. Basically, you are objecting to superstores as a whole because Wal-Mart abuses its employees. Or objecting to chain stores of any size because the international chains are abusive of their employees. Hell, let's hit closer to home and say that we should ban marriage because of all the abuse to women that happens world wide with physical abuse, spousal rape, arranged marriages, and so on.


It might be conflating, but unless p0rn and hookers come with a fair trade label, how do you tell the difference?

Maybe his conscience demands avoiding it all to make sure he's not contributing to other people's misery.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

It never ceases to amaze me how people try to idealize prostitution.

As warped as the opinion would be, I'd rather hear real situations where their daughters were being used as sperm dumps for sale or their wives or other lady relatives.

The reality is brutally ugly, unhealthy and unnatural regardless of whatever unicorn farts an idealist is smoking.

The conversations I've heard in break rooms suddenly lost their luster when I offered to help their daughters or wives get some training in the "respectable" profession they were discussing as if it were on par with any other profession.

No one has yet been able to meet my eyes as I'm holding up a couple of Jackson's to help launch a budding career they were just talking so highly about. Funny but I don't believe they ever talked so boldy about the virtues of selling your ass to their own wives or daughters.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> What do you think is happening when we trade our labor for money in the job market? Why is it different when that labor is sex instead of digging holes, or working on cars, or whatever?


Ah, trotting this disingenuous argument out again, I see. So, would you agree that sh1tting and masturbation in public are just fine and dandy because they're bodily functions like eating, drinking, etc? Do you see/hear any kids saying they want to grow up to be a prostitute? 

Some people have better opportunities than others {insert reason}. The more illicit "occupations" that cater to people's baser instincts will always command top dollar, some people like fast, easy money. 

In my birth country, prostitution is rampant, mainly among Venezuelan refugees who don't speak the language and have zero options. 




maquiscat said:


> Some do and some don't. And to me this is where some of the problems today come in. Stereotyping and broad brushing. And then worse, trying to put forth that your (generalized not specifically TXTrini) view is the only standard that should be, instead of just one of many possibilities.
> 
> And yet when they do, like I and some others on here do, we still get called the arseholes. And while we don't care whether we are seen that way by some, it does make me wonder how many more are there here that don't speak up just because they see what happens to us.


Ok, so I'm speaking for myself, but* I *am glad there are men who are like that. Better? 

Btw, everybody stereotypes and judges, even you. It's a survival mechanism since we have to make snap judgments all the time without 100% of the information. 

People can do whatever they want, live however they want, but you bet everyone else is going to judge them for it and associate or not accordingly. Social policing keeps the inmates from taking over the asylum.


----------



## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> At the end of the day it just doesn't seem right, does it?
> 
> *To treat another person as a commodity.*


That's very much alive in modern dating, well probably always been around but much more open now. Where is the line between prostitution, golddiggers, sugar babies, etc.... What about a woman who won't date a guy who makes less than X amount? For that matter, isn't sex always an exchange, even if just validation?

There's an old joke that the only difference between a hooker and a wife is the hooker tells you the price upfront.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Absolutely. I see them as all pretty similar in the damage they cause.
> I remember a lady I used to know whose husband was a porn user. She said that she almost wished that he had had an affair as then she only had one woman to compete with instead of thousands. I thought that was very sad.


I completely relate to this. Once I got over the shock, I was GLAD my ex cheated. I didn't feel justified to end my marriage without something major.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> It never ceases to amaze me how people try to idealize prostitution.
> 
> As warped as the opinion would be, I'd rather hear real situations where their daughters were being used as sperm dumps for sale or their wives or other lady relatives.
> 
> ...


Thank you! 

This exposes the complete hypocrisy of people like that. It's fine for other people's wives, sisters, and daughters, but not theirs!


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Al_Bundy said:


> That's very much alive in modern dating, well probably always been around but much more open now. Where is the line between prostitution, golddiggers, sugar babies, etc.... What about a woman who won't date a guy who makes less than X amount? For that matter, isn't sex always an exchange, even if just validation?
> 
> There's an old joke that the only difference between a hooker and a wife is the hooker tells you the price upfront.


You are speaking about a shallow subset of society. No one could argue convincingly that I haven't been successful with women and money had nothing to do with it and I view your transactional post as anathema. My experience being in direct opposition to your post isn't simply anecdotal either.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Al_Bundy said:


> That's very much alive in modern dating, well probably always been around but much more open now. Where is the line between prostitution, golddiggers, sugar babies, etc.... What about a woman who won't date a guy who makes less than X amount? For that matter, isn't sex always an exchange, even if just validation?
> 
> There's an old joke that the only difference between a hooker and a wife is the hooker tells you the price upfront.


And that's a truly disgusting trend, those women are rightly made fun of and ostracized. If men stopped rewarding their bad behavior, they wouldn't have a line of suckers waiting to step up to the plate.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TXTrini said:


> Thank you!
> 
> This exposes the complete hypocrisy of people like that. It's fine for other people's wives, sisters, and daughters, but not theirs!


Exactly.


----------



## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> You are speaking about a shallow subset of society. No one could argue convincingly that I haven't been successful with women and money had nothing to do with it and I view your transactional post as anathema. My experience being in direct opposition to your post isn't simply anecdotal either.


Why shallow, what if the woman works at JP Morgan also makes X amount of money and she wants a man on "her level"? I know when guys mention women who only date a certain kind of guy it's easy to go to the lowest handing fruit and throw rocks. But there is a large subset of women making good money who want a financial equal.

Most things in life can be broken down to transactional, doesn't make it good or bad.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Look, if some of you men (and women) want to use p0rn and hookers, have at it. At least have the decency to be honest about your motivations and live your life authentically. Some people will be put off by your choices, some won't.

The problem is when people are secretive about their proclivities and ambush their partners who most definitely do not share the same values after they've "won" them.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Exactly.


Porn - ditto. It’s fine for others wives, sisters, and daughters (to become “actors”) but not mine!

It’s all exploitation. They’re giving something very special and irreplaceable of themselves… for money, drugs, respect, or to be “loved”.


----------



## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> And that's a truly disgusting trend, those women are rightly made fun of and ostracized. If men stopped rewarding their bad behavior, they wouldn't have a line of suckers waiting to step up to the plate.


Totally agree, but that's not going to happen. It seems the worse they behave the more they're rewarded. There was a woman selling her farts, seriously.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

TXTrini said:


> It might be conflating, but unless p0rn and hookers come with a fair trade label, how do you tell the difference?
> 
> Maybe his conscience demands avoiding it all to make sure he's not contributing to other people's misery.


Some sex workers are fair traders, i.e, sex for money.

Many others are broken ladies, taken low by drugs, past abuse, or they were (long term) conditioned to be/act this way.

For them it is a way of life, a means to an end.

Unfortunately, few create 401K or pension plans for themselves.

Some use pimps for protection against beatings, but at a steep price.
Pimps are middle men, and are blood suckers.

What a way to live, to die!




_KB-_


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Al_Bundy said:


> Totally agree, but that's not going to happen. It seems the worse they behave the more they're rewarded. There was a woman selling her farts, seriously.


I saw that. It made me very sad for society and glad I have no children.

When things degenerate to the point of ridiculousness like that, it's time for another flood. I welcome global warming.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> Some sex workers are fair traders, i.e, sex for money.
> 
> Many others are broken ladies, taken low by drugs, past abuse, or they were (long term) conditioned to be/act this way.
> 
> ...


I wonder how many people think of that before they purchase them as a "commodity" and accept that they are contributing to their damage and dehumanization.

When I said fair trade, I was likening the label that's plonked on other commodities like coffee or clothing that is ethically produced. Nice way to treat another living, breathing creature, eh? Much less a person.


----------



## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> I saw that. It made me very sad for society and glad I have no children.
> 
> When things degenerate to the point of ridiculousness like that, it's time for another flood. I welcome global warming.


I know a woman who pays her mortgage by selling pictures of her butthole. Makes me just shake my head.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Al_Bundy said:


> Totally agree, but that's not going to happen. It seems the worse they behave the more they're rewarded. There was a woman selling her farts, seriously.


Interesting that none of this depravity was so public until the internet and free availability of all kinds of p0rn. It's only going to get worse as more fringe things become more accepted and acceptable.

Some people think p0rn is totally innocuous and I wonder if those people have explored all there is because if they had, they wouldn't be so blasé about it.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> I know a woman who pays her mortgage by selling pictures of her butthole. Makes me just shake my head.


I was once asked to perform in a kink video. I would have had to put on high heeled sandals and step on some man’s junk. There are some weird people in the world. To say the least.

(And before anyone asks for a copy of the video, no I didn’t do it ya sickos!)


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Al_Bundy said:


> Why shallow, what if the woman works at JP Morgan also makes X amount of money and she wants a man on "her level"? I know when guys mention women who only date a certain kind of guy it's easy to go to the lowest handing fruit and throw rocks. But there is a large subset of women making good money who want a financial equal.
> 
> Most things in life can be broken down to transactional, doesn't make it good or bad.


I'm definitely going against your point of view because it doesn't exist in my relationships.

It's obviously your point of view but absolutely not mine.

I'm also never going to be anything but antagonistic to any view that tries to normalize buying and selling women for sex.

I have probably run into men who can't tell the difference between their daughters selling hamburgers during their school days and getting stuffed by Barney, the obese, creepy neighbor, for some extra spending money but they were probably too busy hustling their next meth hit to discuss their point of view.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Al_Bundy said:


> Totally agree, but that's not going to happen. It seems the worse they behave the more they're rewarded. There was a woman selling her farts, seriously.


Raises hand. I shared that!🤣🤣🤣

Still laughing about it!


----------



## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> I know a woman who pays her mortgage by selling pictures of her butthole. Makes me just shake my head.


I think that's the modern version of the my electric bill is due, time to go out on a date scheme.


----------



## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> I'm definitely going against your point of view because it doesn't exist in my relationships.
> 
> It's obviously your point of view but absolutely not mine.
> 
> ...


I don't think many people would argue about the world of pimps and addicts. What I'm saying is the corporate lawyer whose office was down the hall from mine also has a price, one that was set by her. While not exactly the same, it's pretty close when she's saying a guy has to have a certain amount of resources before there's even a chance of sex. Not a lot of difference when you take away the education and titles.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I have probably run into men who can't tell the difference between their daughters selling hamburgers during their school days and getting stuffed by Barney, the obese, creepy neighbor, for some extra spending money but they were probably too busy hustling their next meth hit to discuss their point of view.


Do they announce themselves? 

Can you imagine everyday dinner table discussions if society accepted everything freely?

"Daddy, here's pics from my new shoot" _plonks pics of several dozen men running a train on her in every imaginable angle_ "I made $20,000! Aren't you soooooo proud of me?"

"Daughter, I want to book you for my friend's bachelor party, when are you free?"


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Al_Bundy said:


> I don't think many people would argue about the world of pimps and addicts. What I'm saying is the corporate lawyer whose office was down the hall from mine also has a price, one that was set by her. While not exactly the same, it's pretty close when she's saying a guy has to have a certain amount of resources before there's even a chance of sex. Not a lot of difference when you take away the education and titles.


To be fair, most people gravitate to others similar in circumstances and commonalities. How much would she have in common with a garbage man (who performs an invaluable service)? 

Men could do the same, but many pant after a pretty face and big tits.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Al_Bundy said:


> I don't think many people would argue about the world of pimps and addicts. What I'm saying is the corporate lawyer whose office was down the hall from mine also has a price, one that was set by her. While not exactly the same, it's pretty close when she's saying a guy has to have a certain amount of resources before there's even a chance of sex. Not a lot of difference when you take away the education and titles.


I obviously never had sex with a woman with that interesting criteria but I had plenty of sex with women from many stations before meeting my wife and they didn't give a rat's rump about my income.

You are pointing out a certain subset of people. You can't apply her values to everyone.

Your question would be better posed to her. Ask her what she believes the difference between a prostitute and herself is.

That would be an interesting perspective.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I obviously never had sex with a woman with that interesting criteria but I had plenty of sex with women from many stations before meeting my wife and they didn't give a rat's rump about my income.
> 
> You are pointing out a certain subset of people. You can't apply her values to everyone.
> 
> ...


I asked a former friend that once.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TXTrini said:


> I asked a former friend that once.


Now I am curious. @Al_Bundy has me interested in what people with that perspective think about differences between a prostitute and themselves are?


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Now I am curious. @Al_Bundy has me interested in what people with that perspective think about differences between a prostitute and themselves are?


I think a lot of this whole debate about sex as a commodity has to do with how people view sex and relationships. It broadcasts principles and values.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TXTrini said:


> Thank you!
> 
> This exposes the complete hypocrisy of people like that. It's fine for other people's wives, sisters, and daughters, but not theirs!


Yes and isnt that sad. These women are all someone's loved one. Even if the women do choose it as a sort of a profession, rather than have to do it due to poverty, what does that say about how they see themselves that they would put money over their own selves?


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Al_Bundy said:


> I don't think many people would argue about the world of pimps and addicts. What I'm saying is the corporate lawyer whose office was down the hall from mine also has a price, one that was set by her. While not exactly the same, it's pretty close when she's saying a guy has to have a certain amount of resources before there's even a chance of sex. Not a lot of difference when you take away the education and titles.


I don't think that is the same thing a prostitution. That lawyer is looking for a relationship. If she just wanted a ONS I'm sure the sexy, shirtless gardener or pool boy would do just fine. She wants someone that is compatible with her, social status and wealth factor into that compatibility. 

Prostitution is not a relationship. It is selling your body for the pleasure of someone else. Most don't give two ****s about the prostitute. They are at best a warm sex doll. The prostitute is being treated as a product or commodity.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> I think a lot of this whole debate about sex as a commodity has to do with how people view sex and relationships. It broadcasts principles and values.


I think you hit the nail on the head. I've seen this same thing in the swinging threads. Some people do not see sex as anything more than just another activity to do and have fun with. It is nothing more. If you have that attitude I can understand why you may not have a problem with prostitution.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head. I've seen this same thing in the swinging threads. Some people do not see sex as anything more than just another activity to do and have fun with. It is nothing more. If you have that attitude I can understand why you may not have a problem with prostitution.


To be fair, I don't believe swinging has anything to do with the same mentality as prostitution.

I believe sharing sex is seen more as sharing affection and not as a commodity. I'm certain at least the swingers I know don't look at themselves as a commodity and are against prostitution.

While I'm not a promoter of anything outside of heterosexual monogamy, I really don't feel the same about couples who share sexually and people who sell and buy each other like a commodity.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TXTrini said:


> I think a lot of this whole debate about sex as a commodity has to do with how people view sex and relationships. It broadcasts principles and values.


Pretty revealing no?


----------



## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> To be fair, most people gravitate to others similar in circumstances and commonalities. How much would she have in common with a garbage man (who performs an invaluable service)?
> 
> Men could do the same, but many pant after a pretty face and big tits.


That's another rabbit hole, she thought her status and income mattered to guys the same way a guys status and income matter to some women.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> To be fair, I don't believe swinging has anything to do with the same mentality as prostitution.
> 
> I believe sharing sex is seen more as sharing affection and not as a commodity. I'm certain at least the swingers I know don't look at themselves as a commodity and are against prostitution.
> 
> While I'm not a promoter of anything outside of heterosexual monogamy, I really don't feel the same about couples who share sexually and people who sell and buy each other like a commodity.


I don't think that swingers have any more affection for those they have sex with than people having sex with prostitutes. They don't know them, it's about sex only.


----------



## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Now I am curious. @Al_Bundy has me interested in what people with that perspective think about differences between a prostitute and themselves are?


It would probably end up being a debate along the lines of "my reason for having sex is better than yours", would it not? It'd be an interesting ethics debate.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I don't think that swingers have any more affection for those they have sex with than people having sex with prostitutes. They don't know them, it's about sex only.


The folks I've talked with, especially here, do know the other people and it's actually a requirement that they like each other and get along.

I'm fully against it but I'm not going to say anything opposite of what they have expressed about their choices.

I actually have never talked to a swinger who didn't know someone they wanted to have sex with.

I will add that there are some in non monogamous lifestyles that do view sex as a commodity and they are so out there that I converse very little with them.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I don't think that is the same thing a prostitution. That lawyer is looking for a relationship. If she just wanted a ONS I'm sure the sexy, shirtless gardener or pool boy would do just fine. She wants someone that is compatible with her, social status and wealth factor into that compatibility.


I agree, it's a compatibility thing. If the woman couldn't bring what she was demanding, then she's delusional. 



BigDaddyNY said:


> Prostitution is not a relationship. It is selling your body for the pleasure of someone else. Most don't give two ****s about the prostitute. They are at best a warm sex doll. The prostitute is being treated as a product or commodity.


Exactly. 

From the prostitute's perspective, I can't imagine how she/he feels knowing that is all they are to the john.

I can't imagine how sexy a john finds having to pay for sex from a woman who would not choose to if she wasn't being paid.



BigDaddyNY said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head. I've seen this same thing in the swinging threads. Some people do not see sex as anything more than just another activity to do and have fun with. It is nothing more. If you have that attitude I can understand why you may not have a problem with prostitution.


Now that's another story. I read those threads but didn't participate because I know that's not for me and I'm not changing my stance.

I don't think swingers realize the damage they do for their "cause" when they try to legitimize their lifestyles by promoting p0rn and prostitution. I don't know if it's because over time p0rn and prostitution have become more mainstream, to the point some people are making it legit careers. To me, it completely destroys their credibility that their lifestyles are harmless and acceptable. 

Btw, I don't care what people do once it doesn't negatively impact anyone else. However, seeing increasingly degrading things become more mainstream is precisely why people take the hard stance they do. Maybe this is just another thing we are going to have to agree to disagree on, but I refuse to compromise my principles by signing off on a lifestyle choice.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Al_Bundy said:


> It would probably end up being a debate along the lines of "my reason for having sex is better than yours", would it not? It'd be an interesting ethics debate.


I'm more interested in conversations and how people view themselves.

The lawyer you described would be interesting to hear from on this.


----------



## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

You guys can argue this topic til the cows come home....How many of you drank a cup of coffee this morning? Yeah...go check out how that industry treats its workers and get back to me...

I have always contended that women so vigorously speak out against prostitution and porn, using the reasoning of exploitation, (yet walk around in shoes made in Bangladesh by people that eat cockroaches for dinner) because it demystifies sex and takes some of their power over males away...Once they realize that it can be bought, then that sacred value starts to fade..Matters not if guys even engage in it or not, its competition that they have to eradicate with every fiber in their bones...

Additionally, any woman that may draw attention from men and away from them is considered their enemy....Its one of the main reasons I can have 20 guys working asses to elbows harmoniously, but I can't have 2 women in the office at the same time without daily theatrics and drama...Over last summer, I attended a wedding where on of my cousins(who is a workout nut) was wearing a very skimpy, but not trashy, dress...OMG, you would have thought she was out there naked with all the hate thrown her way.....by all of the women...

Its ok...I don't really see anything wrong with fighting against competition, I am a pretty competitive guy as well....just dall it as it is, don't try to make it something else..


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Al_Bundy said:


> That's another rabbit hole, she thought her status and income mattered to guys the same way a guys status and income matter to some women.


Definitely. Maybe it's like when some men think looks shouldn't matter to women because they're "good, high-quality men" and they deserve attractive women, despite not being considered physically attractive by some of the women desire.



Al_Bundy said:


> It would probably end up being a debate along the lines of "my reason for having sex is better than yours", would it not? It'd be an interesting ethics debate.


Again, it depends on how you view sex. Is it a shared positive experience that makes you both feel wonderful and brings you closer together, or is it just to bust a nut and any hole will do?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

hamadryad said:


> You guys can argue this topic til the cows come home....How many of you drank a cup of coffee this morning? Yeah...go check out how that industry treats its workers and get back to me...
> 
> I have always contended that women so vigorously speak out against prostitution and porn, using the reasoning of exploitation, (yet walk around in shoes made in Bangladesh by people that eat cockroaches for dinner) because it demystifies sex and takes some of their power over males away...Once they realize that it can be bought, then that sacred value starts to fade..Matters not if guys even engage in it or not, its competition that they have to eradicate with every fiber in their bones...
> 
> ...


Don't broad brush women or men

I have a Y chromosome and I loathe porn and prostitution.

You just have to own that you view sex as a commodity but you are only part of a group and not the only, or even most prevalent, group in existence.


----------



## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Oh gotcha. 

Based on happy hour conversations, she felt she was worth it. She'd talk about wanting an equal, being a power couple, all that jazz. Being a lawyer I'm sure she'd argue that her financial requirements are standards, not a price.


----------



## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> Again, it depends on how you view sex. Is it a shared positive experience that makes you both feel wonderful and brings you closer together, or is it just to bust a nut and any hole will do?


Could be neither. Is it not also a tool for some people?


----------



## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> Don't broad brush women or men
> 
> I have a Y chromosomes and I loathe porn and prostitution.
> 
> You just have to own that you view sex as a commodity but you are only part of a group and not the only, or even most prevalent, group in existence.


I don't have to own anything, skip...and you don't know Jack shyt about me, so don't make any assumptions, save it..

Find one post where I personally advocate prostitution....or I view sex as a commodity..its ok...ill wait..

The only difference I am not going to be a phony and come out against it using the logic of exploitation...You want to do that, fine...


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Al_Bundy said:


> Oh gotcha.
> 
> Based on happy hour conversations, she felt she was worth it. She'd talk about wanting an equal, being a power couple, all that jazz. Being a lawyer I'm sure she'd argue that her financial requirements are standards, not a price.


TJ here, sorry Trini!

Based on a lot of collected data, I'm curious how it's working for her because a lot of ladies in her position are having a really tough time.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

hamadryad said:


> I don't have to own anything, skip...and you don't know Jack shyt about me, so don't make any assumptions, save it..
> 
> Find one post where I personally advocate prostitution....or I view sex as a commodity..its ok...ill wait..
> 
> The only difference I am not going to be a phony and come out against it using the logic of exploitation...You want to do that, fine...


My sincerest apologies. I wasn't making the exploitation argument and I don't think TxTrini was either.

You did broadbrush women, and by the same stroke, men.

You also seem to be making a different argument than what was being talked about so my bad that I took what you were saying as an argument for prostitution.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

hamadryad said:


> You guys can argue this topic til the cows come home....How many of you drank a cup of coffee this morning? Yeah...go check out how that industry treats its workers and get back to me...
> 
> I have always contended that women so vigorously speak out against prostitution and porn, using the reasoning of exploitation, (yet walk around in shoes made in Bangladesh by people that eat cockroaches for dinner) because it demystifies sex and takes some of their power over males away...Once they realize that it can be bought, then that sacred value starts to fade..Matters not if guys even engage in it or not, its competition that they have to eradicate with every fiber in their bones...
> 
> ...


That's a great point, I wish more consumers cared enough to be aware of the true cost of what they buy. That's changing every day, btw with awareness. 

I drink lots of coffee and tend to buy the more expensive stuff which is stamped with fair trade, btw. The point you made is exactly why I don't buy a lot of stuff (my house is pretty spartan) and try as much as possible to buy things not made with slave or child labor. That means nothing super cheap, nothing brand name and pricier food. I offset the additional expense by doing a lot of things myself instead of relying on convenience. My bf owns way more clothes and shoes than I do!

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person trying to make better choices, judging from awareness campaigns and the increased number of companies boasting fair trade practices and promoting social responsibility.

That office dynamic sounds horrible! Guess what though? People don't need to participate! I avoid that kind of crap like the plague, in fact, I prefer to work remotely and avoid office politics altogether. However, I've had some great former coworkers that thought similarly, we are still friends years after leaving that workplace.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Al_Bundy said:


> Could be neither. Is it not also a tool for some people?


What do you mean?


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> The folks I've talked with, especially here, do know the other people and it's actually a requirement that they like each other and get along.
> 
> I'm fully against it but I'm not going to say anything opposite of what they have expressed about their choices.
> 
> ...


I remember a programme years ago where the couple who were swingers literally just met that day and went off to have sex. I don't think many are best buddies.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> TJ here, sorry Trini!
> 
> Based on a lot of collected data, I'm curious how it's working for her because a lot of ladies in her position are having a really tough time.


Don't worry about it. I don't get to have these kinds of conversations IRL, so it's quite stimulating to see all the stuff that comes up.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I remember a programme years ago where the couple who were swingers literally just met that day and went off to have sex. I don't think many are best buddies.


They exist but I don't think they are the couples who last very long? I'm definitely no expert.

The swingers who I reference are very rational and cautious kinds


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Al_Bundy said:


> Oh gotcha.
> 
> Based on happy hour conversations, she felt she was worth it. She'd talk about wanting an equal, being a power couple, all that jazz. Being a lawyer I'm sure she'd argue that her financial requirements are standards, not a price.


I've heard men talk that way too. This guy I dated once told me if he had a woman like me backing him, he'd have owned half of our city 😂 That felt like a LOT of pressure to me, I'm not a power player type.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TXTrini said:


> Don't worry about it. I don't get to have these kinds of conversations IRL, so it's quite stimulating to see all the stuff that comes up.


The only person IRL I can have conversations like this with is my youngest son's fiance.

He often has to make an appointment for any of her time when we get going on some juicy topics! LoL!


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

My opinion is that being a prostitute (trading sexual activity for financial or other stability) is Gross🤮
Sex used to be a joyful sharing of pleasure, now it is just a performance. The lack of emotional connection sours the whole experience.
Eventually you lose the ability to Orgasm, and all you have is frustration and faking it.


----------



## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Mr. Nail said:


> My opinion is that being a prostitute (trading sexual activity for financial or other stability) is Gross🤮
> Sex used to be a joyful sharing of pleasure, now it is just a performance. The lack of emotional connection sours the whole experience.
> Eventually you lose the ability to Orgasm, and all you have is frustration and faking it.


No different then the ones using sex for power or influence in my opinion


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I remember a programme years ago where the couple who were swingers literally just met that day and went off to have sex. I don't think many are best buddies.


Well I'm sure there are different varieties of swingers who operate differently. I didn't like the few I met in person, and I didn't like being around them, b/c I felt they were sizing me up as meat. Predatory. 

Turns out, that was true, the men tried to solicit my exH ... He turned them down b/c he didn't find their women attractive, not on principle. I suppose that was a clue I missed, eh? For the record, I didn't find the men attractive either 😂 but I was more horrified that my exH considered it at all. 



ConanHub said:


> They exist but I don't think they are the couples who last very long? I'm definitely no expert.
> 
> The swingers who I reference are very rational and cautious kinds


I've frequented some places online that cater to that set out of curiosity, there definitely seem to be quite the variety.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

hamadryad said:


> You guys can argue this topic til the cows come home....How many of you drank a cup of coffee this morning? Yeah...go check out how that industry treats its workers and get back to me...
> 
> I have always contended that women so vigorously speak out against prostitution and porn, using the reasoning of exploitation, (yet walk around in shoes made in Bangladesh by people that eat cockroaches for dinner) because it demystifies sex and takes some of their power over males away...Once they realize that it can be bought, then that sacred value starts to fade..Matters not if guys even engage in it or not, its competition that they have to eradicate with every fiber in their bones...
> 
> ...


A lot of prostitution is very exploitative. Surely we all know that and what is wrong with saying that?


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> My opinion is that being a prostitute (trading sexual activity for financial or other stability) is Gross🤮
> Sex used to be a joyful sharing of pleasure, now it is just a performance. The lack of emotional connection sours the whole experience.
> Eventually you lose the ability to Orgasm, and all you have is frustration and faking it.


Buying a prostitute is also gross. It wouldn't exist if there was no market though.

I do have compassion for women who feel they had no choice but prostitution to earn a living for themselves and sometimes children.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

TXTrini said:


> Buying a prostitute is also gross. It wouldn't exist if there was no market though.
> 
> I do have compassion for women who feel they had no choice but prostitution to earn a living for themselves and sometimes children.


I'm glad that you have compassion for "women"
Perhaps someday . . .


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> My opinion is that being a prostitute (trading sexual activity for financial or other stability) is Gross🤮
> Sex used to be a joyful sharing of pleasure, now it is just a performance. The lack of emotional connection sours the whole experience.
> *Eventually you lose the ability to Orgasm, and all you have is frustration and faking it.*


See bolded. How do you know this?


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm glad that you have compassion for "women"
> Perhaps someday . . .


Sorry I forgot, there are male prostitutes too. 

I have compassion for men and women who feel they had no choice but prostitution to earn a living for themselves and sometimes children. 

How's that?


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> See bolded. How do you know this?


I do.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> I do.


I doubt it. But ok, just conversation. So you say no hookers in the world can reach orgasm.

You're omniscient I guess. Carry on.
Btw, who will win the superbowl?

Asking for a friend.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> I have compassion for men and women who feel they had no choice but prostitution to earn a living for themselves and sometimes children.


Remember Mark Wahlberg’s character in Boogie Nights? Aside from being a victim of pornography and later prostitution he made us all suffer with that terrible vocal cover of “The Touch” by Stan Bush.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> Remember Mark Wahlberg’s character in Boogie Nights? Aside from being a victim of pornography and later prostitution he made us all suffer with that terrible vocal cover of “The Touch” by Stan Bush.


I think I saw that movie, but don't remember much except Marky Mark was naked a lot.

I have read that some vulnerable young men prostitute themselves to gay men although they themselves are straight.


----------



## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> I think I saw that movie, but don't remember much except Marky Mark was naked a lot.
> 
> I have read that some vulnerable young men prostitute themselves to gay men although they themselves are straight.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> I think I saw that movie, but don't remember much except Marky Mark was naked a lot.
> 
> I have read that some vulnerable young men prostitute themselves to gay men although they themselves are straight.


That is what happened in the film. He ends up getting his ass kicked. It’s a cautionary tale for any of the men who may be here considering prostitution as a career.


----------



## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> That is what happened in the film. He ends up getting his ass kicked. It’s a cautionary tale for any of the men who may be here considering prostitution as a career.


D*mmit!! Now I am going to have to find another career!


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> It would have produced the same end result, just a lot sooner. Look no hate from me, just an observation, as @ hamadryad observed I had my own avoidant tendencies.
> 
> You know what this reminds me of? Men who talk about stepping up to lead in marriage, to be bold and brave and put everything on the table. A little secret... women respect men like that (I sure as heck do).
> 
> ...


No worries! I am not easily offended. I don't usually let forum chats get me upset, so I apologize if I seemed like I was angry or something. Just giving my opinion on things is all.

Yeah, I was a lot younger when I got married. One thing that many people don't consider is that things don't just become bad out of the blue, it was a slow decline. We both started working a lot, she gained weight, we ran into some bedroom problems, I started using porn a bit more than I should, etc. After a couple of years, there was barely any connection there for me. 

When it comes to the weight loss, there seems to be an attitude among some ladies that they will never lose weight for a man. So, if a husband or BF has issues with her weight, he becomes the bad guy, regardless of the amount of weight she put on. She will lose that weight quickly enough after a break up as part of her "glow up" phase. If she had tried to glow up a bit for her former partner, maybe there would have been fewer problems. 

If you think I am worried about being the asshole, then you really don't know me so well  . I will say what's on my mind, asshole or not. When I was married, it was more about keeping the peace. No man is trying to work all day just to come home and decide to start a pointless fight with his wife. More often, we opt for the peaceful home life. I'm glad that is all behind me now though. Things are different with my current partner.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> I do feel sad because I see the reason/plan for marriage being trodden on and ruined.
> I appreciate people can make their own choices but marriage is a very special covenant that is so often completely wrecked by those choices. As we see here on TAM.


Once again, you try to impose your definitions on others. Here is how to show your beliefs without imposing them on others:



> I do feel sad because I see what I believe the reason/plan for marriage being trodden on and ruined.
> I appreciate people can make their own choices but to me marriage is a very special covenant that is so often completely wrecked by those choices. As we see here on TAM.


You can express your opinion or belief without trying to impose it as the end all be all.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> View attachment 82478


I see you $20 and reduce to $1...


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TXTrini said:


> Well I'm sure there are different varieties of swingers who operate differently. I didn't like the few I met in person, and I didn't like being around them, b/c I felt they were sizing me up as meat. Predatory.
> 
> Turns out, that was true, the men tried to solicit my exH ... He turned them down b/c he didn't find their women attractive, not on principle. I suppose that was a clue I missed, eh? For the record, I didn't find the men attractive either 😂 but I was more horrified that my exH considered it at all.
> 
> ...


Thank goodness you left him!!!!
For me, I am only attea


Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I doubt it. But ok, just conversation. So you say no hookers in the world can reach orgasm.
> 
> You're omniscient I guess. Carry on.
> Btw, who will win the superbowl?
> ...


There are acting just as porn stars are acting. They have sex for money. I mean can you imagine the type of guys who go to prostitutes? Not exactly appealing.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> It might be conflating, but unless p0rn and hookers come with a fair trade label, how do you tell the difference?
> 
> Maybe his conscience demands avoiding it all to make sure he's not contributing to other people's misery.


Same could as easily be said with anything. Not to mention that simply because you think that "Fair Trade" is something special doesn't mean others do. And quite honestly, I can respect that as a reasoning. But that doesn't eliminate the fact that there are those who are in the trade willingly and happily. My point still holds that there is a wide variety of meaning and use, and that there really isn't much that comes as absolutely one view. The only thing that matters is that those involved consent to be involved.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> Once again, you try to impose your definitions on others. Here is how to show your beliefs without imposing them on others:
> 
> 
> 
> You can express your opinion or belief without trying to impose it as the end all be all.


Doesnt stop me feeling sad about it either way.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

If I am remembering the film correctly Mark Wahlberg’s character offers to jerk off for $5. Very dehumanizing indeed, although adjusting for inflation $1 in 1985 is $2.59 today so it’s more like $12.95 which is enough for a nice meal at Taco Bell.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> There are acting just as porn stars are acting. They have sex for money. I mean can you imagine the type of guys who go to prostitutes? Not exactly appealing.


Hugh Grant, at the height of his stardom, got caught with a hooker while he was married to arguably one of the hottest women in the world at the time. There are more guys going to hookers than you think, and that's just our culture here in the USA. When I used to work a construction job as a 21 year old man, a lot of the guys there were going to Asian massage parlors. I mean, A LOT of the guys. Younger guys, older guys, married, single, many of them. Our insurance policy paid so much money per year towards massage so all the guys were using it for that. I was new there and I didn't even know it was a thing until the place got shut down and all the men at work were talking about it.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> It never ceases to amaze me how people try to idealize prostitution.
> 
> As warped as the opinion would be, I'd rather hear real situations where their daughters were being used as sperm dumps for sale or their wives or other lady relatives.
> 
> ...


It's not idealization to note the fact that there are people who are in the sex trade because they want to be and enjoy it. And if such is the case, more power to them. I don't even have to like it to support their ability to do so.

And yes, if my daughters want to be sex workers, I will support their decision to do so. I've already told them as much. I also told them, only do it if they want to. If they feel that they have gotten to a point that they must, instead of want to, then see me and we will find a different path. As far as you helping them, well that is up to them, if they want to take you on as a client. I'm not going to pimp for them. Be enforcer maybe if someone violates their terms and conditions, but it's up to them to decide what they are.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

TXTrini said:


> I think I saw that movie, but don't remember much except Marky Mark was naked a lot.
> 
> *I have read that some vulnerable young men prostitute themselves to gay men although they themselves are straight.*


I remember that choice. I chose crime instead.

Exit only.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> No worries! I am not easily offended. I don't usually let forum chats get me upset, so I apologize if I seemed like I was angry or something. Just giving my opinion on things is all.
> 
> Yeah, I was a lot younger when I got married. One thing that many people don't consider is that things don't just become bad out of the blue, it was a slow decline. We both started working a lot, she gained weight, we ran into some bedroom problems, I started using porn a bit more than I should, etc. After a couple of years, there was barely any connection there for me.
> 
> ...


Thank you for being so gracious, I simply wanted to ensure you knew it was not a personal attack. Hey, none of us would be here if we were perfect people who did everything perfectly, right? 

Yes, I've seen that attitude in some women, but I don't hang around them, so I don't know how numerous they are as a segment. Do they overlap with the blue-haired crowd?


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> Same could as easily be said with anything. Not to mention that simply because you think that "Fair Trade" is something special doesn't mean others do. And quite honestly, I can respect that as a reasoning. But that doesn't eliminate the fact that there are those who are in the trade willingly and happily. My point still holds that there is a wide variety of meaning and use, and that there really isn't much that comes as absolutely one view. The only thing that matters is that those involved consent to be involved.


I'm not the only one who thinks the "fair trade" concept is special or it wouldn't be gaining traction across many exploitative industries. 

Of course, there are those who will participate in p0rn and prostitution willingly, but how do you know the difference between them and the ones who will suffer negative consequences in a different time or place?

My view is, if you don't know for sure and you support it, then you are part of the problem and not the solution.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> Hugh Grant, at the height of his stardom, got caught with a hooker while he was married to arguably one of the hottest women in the world at the time. There are more guys going to hookers than you think, and that's just our culture here in the USA. When I used to work a construction job as a 21 year old man, a lot of the guys there were going to Asian massage parlors. I mean, A LOT of the guys. Younger guys, older guys, married, single, many of them. Our insurance policy paid so much money per year towards massage so all the guys were using it for that. I was new there and I didn't even know it was a thing until the place got shut down and all the men at work were talking about it.


Great example. I completely lost respect for him and stopped watching his movies unless it was something I wanted to see anyway after that. 

Yuck! No wonder insurance doesn't pay for regular massage therapy anymore. Those disgusting men ruined it for everyone!


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> It's not idealization to note the fact that there are people who are in the sex trade because they want to be and enjoy it. And if such is the case, more power to them. I don't even have to like it to support their ability to do so.
> 
> And yes, if my daughters want to be sex workers, I will support their decision to do so. I've already told them as much. I also told them, only do it if they want to. If they feel that they have gotten to a point that they must, instead of want to, then see me and we will find a different path. As far as you helping them, well that is up to them, if they want to take you on as a client. I'm not going to pimp for them. Be enforcer maybe if someone violates their terms and conditions, but it's up to them to decide what they are.


At least you're consistent. I'd love to see if you actually follow through with that, but we'll never know.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Enigma32 said:


> Hugh Grant, at the height of his stardom, got caught with a hooker while he was married to arguably one of the hottest women in the world at the time. There are more guys going to hookers than you think, and that's just our culture here in the USA. When I used to work a construction job as a 21 year old man, a lot of the guys there were going to Asian massage parlors. I mean, A LOT of the guys. Younger guys, older guys, married, single, many of them. Our insurance policy paid so much money per year towards massage so all the guys were using it for that. I was new there and I didn't even know it was a thing until the place got shut down and all the men at work were talking about it.


I doubt that most prostitutes have any respect or attraction towards the men who stoop so low. 
I remember reading that the majority of porn stars actually hate sex.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> Ah, trotting this disingenuous argument out again, I see.


Not disingenuous. The treating of a person as a commodity is a piss poor argument against prostitution. That's not a claim that there are not other better arguments against prostitution. Just that one is bad because we treat ourselves and our labor as commodities every day. So why does it suddenly become a problem just because it's a bodily function? I guess that you would be upset if people sold or gave away piss for hide tanning? Guess what? That is exactly how it used to be.



> So, would you agree that sh1tting and masturbation in public are just fine and dandy because they're bodily functions like eating, drinking, etc?


No because I don't support sex in public. But I am not railing against public restrooms either, nor even against those facilities where there are pay for use stalls. They exist both in the US and in the UK. I believe elsewhere as well, but those are all I have direct experience with. Of course there is the matter of what are you considering public. After all there is just a thin wall between you and the next person. Not even that with urinals in some places. Maybe you better define public for the context.



> Do you see/hear any kids saying they want to grow up to be a prostitute?


I wouldn't expect to since children don't typically have sexual awareness. After a teen experences sex, they might have those goals, but in reality, we discover what we want to do after we grow up. I never in my entire childhood decided that I wanted to be a OTR trick drive and work in logistics, but here I am and loving what I do. I also never grew up claiming that I wanted to teach BDSM safety, yet here I am enjoying that as well.



> Ok, so I'm speaking for myself, but* I *am glad there are men who are like that. Better?


I am glad for such men and women too. But that view is not the only one out there, and I don't try to make it out to be.



> Btw, everybody stereotypes and judges, even you. It's a survival mechanism since we have to make snap judgments all the time without 100% of the information.


Yes, but I recognize that my stereotypes are not the only thing out there and that they are stereotypes. I won't say I never fail, but I always try to remember that despite my initial judgement that I could be wrong, and hope I will be corrected if I am. I recognize trend over absolute. And yes I will work with trend when having to deal with less than all the information, but I will never claim that trend is the only way to be or the only way to think.



> People can do whatever they want, live however they want, but you bet everyone else is going to judge them for it and associate or not accordingly.


I have no issue with people judging in such a manner. For example I have absolutely no issues with Diane judging my marriage to be wrong in her view, since it goes against her religious beliefs. What I do have issue with is her trying to tell me it should be wrong in my view also, or presenting it as wrong in everyone else's view. That is simply factually wrong.



> Social policing keeps the inmates from taking over the asylum.


Sometimes it's an effort to keep the inmates in charge of the asylum. Us running counter to social policing is sometimes an effort to stop the inmates from continuing to run the asylum.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> I doubt that most prostitutes have any respect or attraction towards the men who stoop so low.
> I remember reading that the majority of porn stars actually hate sex.


You see it as stooping so low because that is your view on prostitution. A prostitute may very well have a different view on her profession. I don't know a lot of hookers but I did used to hang out in the strip clubs when I was a young guy, and I was friends with quite a few professional ladies. A guy could go into a strip club and get an actual date from one of those ladies if he acted right. If a professional girl looks down on her clientele as much as you do, then she will probably have a crappy opinion about herself too. Not everyone sees things as you do.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> It's not idealization to note the fact that there are people who are in the sex trade because they want to be and enjoy it. And if such is the case, more power to them. I don't even have to like it to support their ability to do so.
> 
> And yes, if my daughters want to be sex workers, I will support their decision to do so. I've already told them as much. I also told them, only do it if they want to. If they feel that they have gotten to a point that they must, instead of want to, then see me and we will find a different path. As far as you helping them, well that is up to them, if they want to take you on as a client. I'm not going to pimp for them. Be enforcer maybe if someone violates their terms and conditions, but it's up to them to decide what they are.


Well at least you're consistent. So your daughters flipping burgers is no different than flipping their pants down and bending over?

Or is there some level of differentiation in your mind?

I do appreciate your lack of hypocrisy though I believe you to be mentally ill in some form.

That's not an insult. I find this view to be insane.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> Look, if some of you men (and women) want to use p0rn and hookers, have at it. At least have the decency to be honest about your motivations and live your life authentically. Some people will be put off by your choices, some won't.
> 
> The problem is when people are secretive about their proclivities and ambush their partners who most definitely do not share the same values after they've "won" them.


Using hookers and being deceitful about using hookers are two different things. Also not openly sharing and being deceitful are two different things.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Al_Bundy said:


> Totally agree, but that's not going to happen. It seems the worse they behave the more they're rewarded. There was a woman selling her farts, seriously.


If someone is going to pay for it, why not, as long as you are willing to sell it. Key point being willing.


----------



## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> Yes, I've seen that attitude in some women, but I don't hang around them, so I don't know how numerous they are as a segment. Do they overlap with the blue-haired crowd?


Based on obesity numbers in the US I'd say it's a very LARGE segment.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I doubt that most prostitutes have any respect or attraction towards the men who stoop so low.
> I remember reading that the majority of porn stars actually hate sex.


They hate sex and men. It's academic that it's incredibly destructive to a healthy view of the opposite sex and even a healthy view of themselves.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> They hate sex and men. It's academic that it's incredibly destructive to a healthy view of the opposite sex and even a healthy view of themselves.


Strippers and hookers, never understood the attraction


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> Interesting that none of this depravity was so public until the internet and free availability of all kinds of p0rn. It's only going to get worse as more fringe things become more accepted and acceptable.
> 
> Some people think p0rn is totally innocuous and I wonder if those people have explored all there is because if they had, they wouldn't be so blasé about it.


It's amazing what previously fringe things have become accepted and acceptable. Marrying for love, women voting, equal pay for equal work, women wearing pants, women as clergy, men as homemakers, men as nurses (after it changed from the fringe of women being nurses).


----------



## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

maquiscat said:


> It's amazing what previously fringe things have become accepted and acceptable. Marrying for love, women voting, equal pay for equal work, women wearing pants, women as clergy, men as homemakers, men as nurses (after it changed from the fringe of women being nurses).


"yawn"


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

ccpowerslave said:


> Porn? If everyone has consented to it then I don’t have a moral problem with it existing.
> 
> My wife knew I watched it and spanked to it and if she cared she never said so. I think she was probably more relieved because when I was younger I really wanted to have sex several times a day and with the exception of the NRE period she could never come close to matching that drive.
> 
> ...


I haven't been to a strip club in years, the last two times I went was with my wife. But what most people do not appreciate is the entertainment at the strip clubs is not the girls. It's the guys who think they have a shot at taking a stripper home. Watching them is pure entertainment.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

TXTrini said:


> I had to recuse myself from a thread because I could not wrap my mind around the thought process involved


Now I understand what you felt.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Mr. Nail said:


> My opinion is that being a prostitute (trading sexual activity for financial or other stability) is Gross🤮
> *Sex used to be a joyful sharing of pleasure*, now it is just a performance. The lack of emotional connection sours the whole experience.
> Eventually you lose the ability to Orgasm, and all you have is frustration and faking it.


It used to be claimed by some, and still is especially by mega religious types, that sex should only be for procreation and not enjoyment. Sex has always meant different things to different people. Also there are those who separate out straight sex from love making, holding them to be two separate, albeit similar, activities.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> I'm not the only one who thinks the "fair trade" concept is special or it wouldn't be gaining traction across many exploitative industries.


Nor did I intend to imply such. My point is that there is no one true way. There are different views, and not matching yours doesn't make them invalid. I have no doubt that you and I are of an accord on many things. Personally I agree with the concept of "Fair Trade". I might not always agree with how it is executed in some cases.



> Of course, there are those who will participate in p0rn and prostitution willingly, but how do you know the difference between them and the ones who will suffer negative consequences in a different time or place?


Such is one of the reasons I don't bother to hire out such a person. Aside from the fact that I can get willing partners for whatever play I want to do. And one of the benefits of having the trade legal and regulated is that there would be less who would be exploited, at least no more so than any other trade out there that is legal and regulated.



> My view is, if you don't know for sure and you support it, then you are part of the problem and not the solution.


I support a person's ability to make that choice and do so if they want. I also support heavy punishments for those who violate the rights of people who don't want to, whether it is in the field of sex work or movie making, or whatever.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> At least you're consistent. I'd love to see if you actually follow through with that, but we'll never know.


I am not hypocritical enough to not acknowledge that how I feel could be altered when faced with the reality of a situation. I would like to think that I would be able to lay down my life to save my child, but I am realistic enough to know that when faced with the situation I might not be able to. Or even that I could in some situations but not in others.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Well at least you're consistent.  So your daughters flipping burgers is no different than flipping their pants down and bending over?
> 
> Or is there some level of differentiation in your mind?


As long as they are doing it because they actually want to. That doesn't mean that I will like that they are doing it. Only that I hold that if such is their choice they should be able to do it. I don't have to like if my child becomes a garbage collector. Look at how many people will look down on that job. Or many blue collar jobs for that matter. And yet those jobs actually pay well. But to me what's important is that they are doing something because they want to.



> I do appreciate your lack of hypocrisy though I believe you to be mentally ill in some form.
> 
> That's not an insult. I find this view to be insane.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Enigma32 said:


> You see it as stooping so low because that is your view on prostitution. A prostitute may very well have a different view on her profession. I don't know a lot of hookers but I did used to hang out in the strip clubs when I was a young guy, and I was friends with quite a few professional ladies. A guy could go into a strip club and get an actual date from one of those ladies if he acted right. If a professional girl looks down on her clientele as much as you do, then she will probably have a crappy opinion about herself too. Not everyone sees things as you do.


It doesn't surprise me at all that women who work in the sex trade do often have very low opinions about themselves. Why do you they do what they do? Often they have had abusive backgrounds.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> It used to be claimed by some, and still is especially by mega religious types, that sex should only be for procreation and not enjoyment. Sex has always meant different things to different people. Also there are those who separate out straight sex from love making, holding them to be two separate, albeit similar, activities.


Its only a few in the RC church who used to think that, maybe a tiny number still do. Its not widespread among believers.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> A lot of prostitution is very exploitative. Surely we all know that and what is wrong with saying that?


Nothing is wrong with saying it, and nothing in that post suggests there is anything wrong with saying that...I agree completely...Its exploitative..

However, as a woman of Faith particularly,. .because you are so concerned with exploitation of people, make sure you go home and toss out most of your clothes and a variety of other things that you own and eat that were made off the backs of people that make less in one year than most people make in a week...in conditions that most people would call barbaric...

ALL I am saying is that this stuff becomes the sole issue that people(IME, women) use as exploitation to squash out...They won't ever give a crap about anything else in their lives, that is just as exploitative...When you see that, then it's reasonable to consider that it's not only the fact that it's exploitative, that there are other reasons that maybe people are too ashamed to admit..


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

I could really use that side eye button, mod overlords.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Yes I do believe wages are also a form of slavery, but one that does not stigmatize the person, indeed many people are proud of their jobs and skills and it gives meaning to the lives of quite a few. 

Personally I haven't run in to too many people who feel proud of being a prostitute and openly admit it. But then again I've never volunteered at an organization that helps or protects them. I think one poster who worked in law enforcement had an opinion that none of the prostitutes he saw liked what they did.

I haven't run into too many men who brag about going to prostitutes either, they don't recommend them the way people like to do for dentists or carpenters.

It would be interresting to hear from someone from some kind of humanitarian organization.

There is a certain social death which prostitutes suffer from their profession, in that they become outcasts, and even our political system does nothing to help them since they are non-persons.

Prostitution is also similar to slavery, in its' race based form, in that the most brutal pimp based forms are forced mostly on females not males.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

QuietRiot said:


> I could really use that side eye button, mod overlords.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

TAMAT said:


> Yes I do believe wages are also a form of slavery, but one that does not stigmatize the person, indeed many people are proud of their jobs and skills and it gives meaning to the lives of quite a few.


Earning a wage for your work is the exact opposite of slavery.



> Personally I haven't run in to too many people who feel proud of being a prostitute and openly admit it. But then again I've never volunteered at an organization that helps or protects them. I think one poster who worked in law enforcement had an opinion that none of the prostitutes he saw liked what they did.


Ever seen Cathouse: The Series on HBO? Those women earn serious money and are openly proud of their work. Some girl that gets picked up by the police for blowing a guy behind a dumpster probably won't act proud though.



> I haven't run into too many men who brag about going to prostitutes either, they don't recommend them the way people like to do for dentists or carpenters.


Mostly because there is a stigma attached to it. Guys don't wanna admit they've seen hookers because ladies look down on it. It's the sort of thing they keep to themselves for the most part.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

hamadryad said:


>


Yeah I asked for that one too.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> As long as they are doing it because they actually want to. That doesn't mean that I will like that they are doing it. Only that I hold that if such is their choice they should be able to do it. I don't have to like if my child becomes a garbage collector. Look at how many people will look down on that job. Or many blue collar jobs for that matter. And yet those jobs actually pay well. But to me what's important is that they are doing something because they want to.


I do appreciate your lack of hypocrisy and honesty.

Thanks.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> Not disingenuous. The treating of a person as a commodity is a piss poor argument against prostitution. That's not a claim that there are not other better arguments against prostitution. Just that one is bad because we treat ourselves and our labor as commodities every day. So why does it suddenly become a problem just because it's a bodily function? I guess that you would be upset if people sold or gave away piss for hide tanning? Guess what? That is exactly how it used to be.
> 
> No because I don't support sex in public. But I am not railing against public restrooms either, nor even against those facilities where there are pay for use stalls. They exist both in the US and in the UK. I believe elsewhere as well, but those are all I have direct experience with. Of course there is the matter of what are you considering public. After all there is just a thin wall between you and the next person. Not even that with urinals in some places. Maybe you better define public for the context.
> 
> ...


Ok, so let's just agree that sex means different things to you and me. I will never view it as a commodity, and wouldn't encourage children and young people under my influence to treat it that way. Some people do it unwittingly if they don't have sufficient parental controls on cellphones, TV, etc, maybe you have no idea how your lifestyle leaks into their awareness (assuming you have children). Anyway, that's not my business or problem, though it's quite unfortunate if that's the case.


maquiscat said:


> Sometimes it's an effort to keep the inmates in charge of the asylum. Us running counter to social policing is sometimes an effort to stop the inmates from continuing to run the asylum.


I have no clue what you're trying to say here...



maquiscat said:


> It's amazing what previously fringe things have become accepted and acceptable. Marrying for love, women voting, equal pay for equal work, women wearing pants, women as clergy, men as homemakers, men as nurses (after it changed from the fringe of women being nurses).


It's amazing that people can display themselves almost naked on floats, children be allowed to pick a gender and dress like strippers and people can marry animals (Canada).

Not all change is good, people have to draw the line somewhere before it all goes to sh1t.



maquiscat said:


> Nor did I intend to imply such. My point is that there is no one true way. There are different views, and not matching yours doesn't make them invalid. I have no doubt that you and I are of an accord on many things. Personally I agree with the concept of "Fair Trade". I might not always agree with how it is executed in some cases.


Wonderful! I'm a great believer in "put your money where your mouth is", I can respect that. It's still in its infancy, of course, execution isn't perfect, it will probably never be, but the more people who try to support it, the more opportunity to execute change and hone the process.



maquiscat said:


> Such is one of the reasons I don't bother to hire out such a person. Aside from the fact that I can get willing partners for whatever play I want to do. And one of the benefits of having the trade legal and regulated is that there would be less who would be exploited, at least no more so than any other trade out there that is legal and regulated.
> 
> I support a person's ability to make that choice and do so if they want. I also support heavy punishments for those who violate the rights of people who don't want to, whether it is in the field of sex work or movie making, or whatever.


Btw, that's why I have not compared prostitution with swinging. I agree with heavy punishments for those kinds of people too, but you don't see johns being flogged in the town square. 



maquiscat said:


> I am not hypocritical enough to not acknowledge that how I feel could be altered when faced with the reality of a situation. I would like to think that I would be able to lay down my life to save my child, but I am realistic enough to know that when faced with the situation I might not be able to. Or even that I could in some situations but not in others.


If soldiers can lay down their lives for their brothers and sisters in arms, and firemen can rush into burning buildings to save the lives of strangers, why do you doubt your capacity to make great sacrifices for your child?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> As long as they are doing it because they actually want to. That doesn't mean that I will like that they are doing it. Only that I hold that if such is their choice they should be able to do it. I don't have to like if my child becomes a garbage collector. Look at how many people will look down on that job. Or many blue collar jobs for that matter. And yet those jobs actually pay well. But to me what's important is that they are doing something because they want to.


BTW. Selling your ass just isn't on par with inventing flight, electricity or nuclear power.

It's fine if you believe it to be on the same level but I still believe it to be a truly unhinged mentality that believes it.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TAMAT said:


> Yes I do believe wages are also a form of slavery…


🤨🧐🤑🤣


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I doubt that most prostitutes have any respect or attraction towards the men who stoop so low.
> I remember reading that the majority of porn stars actually hate sex.


I can't speak for them, but I've watched a lot of documentaries about all sorts of topics in that vein. None of the women interviewed looked happy, they all had haunted eyes. Of course, they may not have interviewed ones that love their jobs.

I personally don't see the appeal in the job, considering unless you're a top their hooker, I imagine they have to take any paying customer. But then again, I'm real picky and would puke on most of my potential customers if I found myself in that position😂 


Enigma32 said:


> You see it as stooping so low because that is your view on prostitution. A prostitute may very well have a different view on her profession. I don't know a lot of hookers but I did used to hang out in the strip clubs when I was a young guy, and I was friends with quite a few professional ladies. A guy could go into a strip club and get an actual date from one of those ladies if he acted right. If a professional girl looks down on her clientele as much as you do, then she will probably have a crappy opinion about herself too. Not everyone sees things as you do.


Yes, many of us do. We can't imagine choosing that life and debasing ourselves in such a personal manner. It might just be sex for some, but you're letting some questionable john into your body and welcoming his diseases with open arms.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> BTW. Selling your ass just isn't on par with inventing flight, electricity or nuclear power.
> 
> It's fine if you believe it to be on the same level but I still believe it to be a truly unhinged mentality that believes it.


Well, insanity seems to be the norm now


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> I can't speak for them, but I've watched a lot of documentaries about all sorts of topics in that vein. None of the women interviewed looked happy, they all had haunted eyes. Of course, they may not have interviewed ones that love their jobs.
> 
> I personally don't see the appeal in the job, considering unless you're a top their hooker, I imagine they have to take any paying customer. But then again, I'm real picky and would puke on most of my potential customers if I found myself in that position😂
> 
> Yes, many of us do. We can't imagine choosing that life and debasing ourselves in such a personal manner. It might just be sex for some, but you're letting some questionable john into your body and welcoming his diseases with open arms.


I agree with you for the most part. I've met a few prostitutes in my day, not the high dollar kind, and they have all been extremely damaged individuals. That's part of the reason it troubles me so much to see people openly promoting sex work to young women online.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> Strippers and hookers, never understood the attraction


Let's just say, some men have to pay for everything they want, and I can see why when I read some comments on TAM.


Enigma32 said:


> Earning a wage for your work is the exact opposite of slavery.
> 
> Ever seen Cathouse: The Series on HBO? Those women earn serious money and are openly proud of their work. Some girl that gets picked up by the police for blowing a guy behind a dumpster probably won't act proud though.
> 
> Mostly because there is a stigma attached to it. Guys don't wanna admit they've seen hookers because ladies look down on it. It's the sort of thing they keep to themselves for the most part.


But... how many of them would you marry?


ConanHub said:


> BTW. Selling your ass just isn't on par with inventing flight, electricity or nuclear power.
> 
> It's fine if you believe it to be on the same level but I still believe it to be a truly unhinged mentality that believes it.


Can you imagine is Einstein sold blowies and ass? Maybe then it would be respected. Since that ain't happening...


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> It might just be sex for some, but you're letting some questionable john into your body and welcoming his diseases with open arms.


Ahem… open legs more likely. 

Dang it this conversation is distracting me! I have to stop.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> *Yes I do believe wages are also a form of slavery,* but one that does not stigmatize the person, indeed many people are proud of their jobs and skills and it gives meaning to the lives of quite a few.
> 
> Personally I haven't run in to too many people who feel proud of being a prostitute and openly admit it. But then again I've never volunteered at an organization that helps or protects them. I think one poster who worked in law enforcement had an opinion that none of the prostitutes he saw liked what they did.
> 
> ...


I agree with you for the most part except the bolded above. I would consider taxes and interest more slavery-minded, as well as professional persecution for people who question authority.

You should check out some of the documentaries on Amazon and Netflix. I haven't heard anyone's story personally, just second-hand on film. Most of the stories are really sad, and exploitation started from a young age. The thing is, I don't think people realize that it doesn't only affect prostitutes and johns directly, but leeches into society.

How many young girls think they have to perform whatever sex act their significant other sees and wants in p0rn to keep a relationship? It's kind of hard to choose better men if all men seem to be ok with stuff like that. I'm so glad to see a wide variety of opinions on difficult topics like these, because quite frankly I'd become misanthropic and nihilistic waiting for it all to go down the crapper.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I think I only have met a prostitute once at a hotel bar. I thought she was just some lady trying to get my friend and I to buy her drinks, we got up briefly and went to the bathroom and came back and she was gone. 

The guy who ran the lobby bar and such threw her out because he said she was a hooker. When I thought about it I was thinking yeah I guess she was barely wearing any clothes.

This was at a 3.5 star business hotel in the middle of a business park and she was wearing cliche Pretty Woman garb and I didn’t even think about it. That is how innocent I am, like the fresh dew in the morning.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> Ahem… open legs more likely.
> 
> Dang it this conversation is distracting me! I have to stop.


I was trying hard not to be crass


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Interestingly that viper was trying to prey on us innocent drunken slobs after work. It wouldn’t have worked though because of our high moral character and traditional values. At least not for my friend and I, some of the other folks we worked with would have hit it for sure.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Its only a few in the RC church who used to think that, maybe a tiny number still do. Its not widespread among believers.


Sadly, it was not limited to the RC, and wasn't even limited to Christians. It was a lot more wide spread in our history. Sex was a duty. You were required to produce at least an "heir and a spare" for higher classes and helpers for the homestead for the lower classes.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Maybe people that live in areas where it's legal can bring a viewpoint.....I have seen some of those "Bunny Ranch" HBO documentaries/reality shows from outside of Vegas where it's legal, and those women didn't really look like they had a boot on their neck or anything...but maybe it was just an act for the show...I dunno..


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> But... how many of them would you marry?


None of them lol. I'm not a big fan of prostitution personally, but I will be honest about the nature of a thing even when I don't like it. Sex workers aren't all the same. There is a big difference between some girl who makes $200k per year selling videos of her banging strangers online, and what strippers do, or your lowly crack addict that blows guys out of a cheap motel. 

I grew up in a...somewhat disreputable area. That;s putting it nicely. One of my old girlfriends when I was a teenager got hooked on drugs and became a hooker. She was cute when we were kids but she looks BAD now. The stuff that girl probably did for a few bucks to pay for her addiction is gonna be a bit different than some high end escort that picks and chooses who she does what with. As I said, I wouldn't marry either of them but I do try to stay intellectually honest about things whenever possible. While I might not approve of what some high dollar hooker does, if it pays her mortgage, and she makes more money than me, I seriously doubt she cares what any of us think. I've seen some of those ladies online talking about it.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Al_Bundy said:


> That's very much alive in modern dating, well probably always been around but much more open now. Where is the line between prostitution, golddiggers, sugar babies, etc.... What about a woman who won't date a guy who makes less than X amount? For that matter, isn't sex always an exchange, even if just validation?
> 
> There's an old joke that the only difference between a hooker and a wife is the hooker tells you the price upfront.


I've literally never met a woman who wouldn't date a guy who didn't make over a certain amount so I'm afraid you might have hung out with the wrong crowd.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

QuietRiot said:


> I was once asked to perform in a kink video. I would have had to put on high heeled sandals and step on some man’s junk. There are some weird people in the world. To say the least.
> 
> (And before anyone asks for a copy of the video, no I didn’t do it ya sickos!)


Around about 1971, in hippie days, I met two guys who were twins. One of them had hair down to his waist and the other one didn't. They were running from a warrant in California. The one with the hair down to his waist stayed at my tiny shack for 5 days, no sex, no attempts, and he said he was a porn filmmaker. He asked me once if I would be interested in being in one, and I said no of course. He was on perfectly good behavior. I think he asked more as a courtesy. Hah.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Around about 1971, in hippie days, I met two guys who were twins. One of them had hair down to his waist and the other one didn't. They were running from a warrant in California. The one with the hair down to his waist stayed at my tiny shack for 5 days, no sex, no attempts, and he said he was a porn filmmaker. He asked me once if I would be interested in being in one, and I said no of course. He was on perfectly good behavior. I think he asked more as a courtesy. Hah.


You should write a memoir!


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> I think I saw that movie, but don't remember much except Marky Mark was naked a lot.
> 
> I have read that some vulnerable young men prostitute themselves to gay men although they themselves are straight.


Ive known a gay guy or two who wanted to prostitute themselves and it seemed to be mainly to boost their own ego. The two I knew who thought that would be cool to do we're not attractive and so I think they wanted to do it to build themselves up, oddly enough. I'm pretty sure one of them tried but I don't think he was successful when he wouldn't have been working for me during the day for very little money.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> If soldiers can lay down their lives for their brothers and sisters in arms, and firemen can rush into burning buildings to save the lives of strangers, why do you doubt your capacity to make great sacrifices for your child?


Because I am honest enough to realize that I might choke instead of act. I've never been faced with the situation, nor is it really something that you can train for like you can soldiering or firefighting. I even readily admitted that I might be able to act in one life threating situation, but not in a different one.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> BTW. Selling your ass just isn't on par with inventing flight, electricity or nuclear power.
> 
> It's fine if you believe it to be on the same level but I still believe it to be a truly unhinged mentality that believes it.


Interesting that you left out the Anthony verse there. People thought that she was really unhinged in believing in equal rights for men and women. Point is that which seems crazy now, might not later in history, no matter how much it can't been seen or understood at the time.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I met at least a handful of hookers because of my time in the music business. Strippers are especially groomed and brainwashed into thinking it's something it's not. The One x stripper callgirl that I briefly hung out with who I didn't meet until we were both 50 and got together because she was on my fan board and local and because we found out we knew a few people in common, she didn't ever think of herself as a sex worker. She was not a ball of fire between the ears. She was being pimped out by a guy that an old roommate of mine knew well who also owned a small local music newspaper, and my roommate worked as a reporter and that was one place she had written for. So she had already told me how smarmy he was. But this EX stripper call girl considered him a great friend. He pimped her out to her husband's who she did stay with for decades. But she was in total denial about being a sex worker and that is exactly what she was.

And it turned out she was friends with another hooker that I didn't know but I knew of who was a real piece of work and always coming on to married men and promising no one would ever know. And then those guys would confide in me about it because everybody confided in me about all that stuff back then.

As far as I know both of those x hookers still liked sex.

Then the other one that I spent some time around because she was sent to our office as a perk was interested in one of her beneficiaries/pimps who was married and a good looking guy with a funny sense of humor. But she told me in no uncertain terms she didn't eat unless a man paid for her dinner. And she would eye every guy that walked past and take anyone up on going to dinner and I don't know what happened after that.

She did three ways with her sister. She told me all this. I couldn't tell if she really likes sex or not but she sure liked money and perks.

I didn't know her backstory except that her father was a serial cheater airline pilot. I suspect her gross sister probably pulled her into it.

There's all types. A lot of them have themselves fooled, but some are just opportunists.

An old psychological study said 85% of them either had some sort of abuse or lived in a household with very bad boundaries when young and I thoroughly believe that.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> You should write a memoir!


I have 900 pages..


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> You should write a memoir!


No one would care enough to read it. And the people that I'd talk about aren't nice people, they would all likely come out and sue me even if I did sell copies. I did have a very interesting young life though. Everyone likes my stories around here.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> Maybe people that live in areas where it's legal can bring a viewpoint.....I have seen some of those "Bunny Ranch" HBO documentaries/reality shows from outside of Vegas where it's legal, and those women didn't really look like they had a boot on their neck or anything...but maybe it was just an act for the show...I dunno..


I saw that first Bunny ranch documentary and I clearly remember one hooker saying once she got married she was never going to do another BJ again. I think it's quite possible she would still like sex as long as it wasn't chore sex.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

hamadryad said:


> Nothing is wrong with saying it, and nothing in that post suggests there is anything wrong with saying that...I agree completely...Its exploitative..
> 
> However, as a woman of Faith particularly,. .because you are so concerned with exploitation of people, make sure you go home and toss out most of your clothes and a variety of other things that you own and eat that were made off the backs of people that make less in one year than most people make in a week...in conditions that most people would call barbaric...
> 
> ALL I am saying is that this stuff becomes the sole issue that people(IME, women) use as exploitation to squash out...They won't ever give a crap about anything else in their lives, that is just as exploitative...When you see that, then it's reasonable to consider that it's not only the fact that it's exploitative, that there are other reasons that maybe people are too ashamed to admit..


Just because there are other things in the world that are wrong from doesn't mean we can't recognise this particular one.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I saw that first Bunny ranch documentary and I clearly remember one hooker saying once she got married she was never going to do another BJ again. I think it's quite possible she would still like sex as long as it wasn't chore sex.


I bet her husband would hop onto TAM and complain that his wife is a prude. Then find out about her past and get all upset... After they had 4 kids, 3 dogs, a cat and a rabbit.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> No one would care enough to read it. And the people that I'd talk about aren't nice people, they would all likely come out and sue me even if I did sell copies. I did have a very interesting young life though. Everyone likes my stories around here.


I sure find them interesting. I love hearing about people's lives, especially when it's very different to mine. It broadens your perspective and appreciation, for sure.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

maquiscat said:


> It's amazing what previously fringe things have become accepted and acceptable. Marrying for love, women voting, equal pay for equal work, women wearing pants, women as clergy, men as homemakers, men as nurses (after it changed from the fringe of women being nurses).


One could justify any abhorrent behavior using flawed logic like this.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Side note. I'm not promoting prostitution mind you but not condemning sex workers either. 

If it was outrageous to all, Las Vegas would do half the business it does if it couldn't promote sexy shows, where many women work.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TXTrini said:


> I agree with you for the most part except the bolded above. I would consider taxes and interest more slavery-minded, as well as professional persecution for people who question authority.
> 
> You should check out some of the documentaries on Amazon and Netflix. I haven't heard anyone's story personally, just second-hand on film. Most of the stories are really sad, and exploitation started from a young age. The thing is, I don't think people realize that it doesn't only affect prostitutes and johns directly, but leeches into society.
> 
> How many young girls think they have to perform whatever sex act their significant other sees and wants in p0rn to keep a relationship? It's kind of hard to choose better men if all men seem to be ok with stuff like that. I'm so glad to see a wide variety of opinions on difficult topics like these, because quite frankly I'd become misanthropic and nihilistic waiting for it all to go down the crapper.


We have sadly had quite a few women here over the years who thought they had to do things they hated to keep the man happy. Its sad for me to read that because it's wrong. 
As I have got older and had more bad things happen in my life, I have got more sure that I would never do stuff that was gross or immoral for any guy.

I would far far rather be single.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Side note. I'm not promoting prostitution mind you but not condemning sex workers either.
> 
> If it was outrageous to all, Las Vegas would do half the business it does if it couldn't promote sexy shows, where many women work.


Its it better for these women that they work as sex workers or get other jobs? If they couldn't work as stripper's or whatever it is then there would be other options even if it was working in a shop and where would we be without shop workers?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Both bad, surely? How can you love someone who doesn't give you sex and prefers prostitutes? And how can you prefer prostitutes when the woman you married is available for sex? It's really baffling.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> One could justify any abhorrent behavior using flawed logic like this.


The same logic can be reversed and claim anything fringe is abhorrent. I'm not saying that any behavior is justified, as far as that particular counter went. I was pointing out the fallacy of the argument itself. But in the end, those behaviors were at one point considered abhorrent. We don't consider them so today. So it seem that abhorrent is a subject value.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Its it better for these women that they work as sex workers or get other jobs? If they couldn't work as stripper's or whatever it is then there would be other options even if it was working in a shop and where would we be without shop workers?


I really can't say. I'm sure, no doubt, some is bad.

Others, say the professional dancers doing professional chorus line or the glamorous outfits' musicals, or professionally put on shows with hot women in thousand dollar outfits do make very good money and don't get nude but are in sexy get ups. 

From the days of the rat pack shows to the shows of today, showgirls type acts are another category of actors. The dancing takes skill, practice, and commitment. Who's to say that work group is bad, that seems disingenuous. 

I'm not promoting prostitution but there are other categories that people call hookers and seem to wrongly slam.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I've literally never met a woman who wouldn't date a guy who didn't make over a certain amount so I'm afraid you might have hung out with the wrong crowd.


It's called modern corporate America.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Al_Bundy said:


> It's called modern corporate America.


Heck yeah!

My ex left our 20 year marriage as according to her "you never end up making as much as we needed to retire comfortably". She bailed out of our marriage for money. And was upfront about it too.

And when I was single between marriages, at least three different women I met actually asked what I made! And these were women in their 40s...not young ones looking for a sugar daddy.

Some women want guys who make good money just as much as guys want women who want a lot of sex. I guess it would be no different if a guy asked a women how many times a week she wanted sex and did she do certain things in the bedroom?

Not sure if either is right or wrong but thats just how it is.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Heck yeah!
> 
> My ex left our 20 year marriage as according to her "you never end up making as much as we needed to retire comfortably". She bailed out of our marriage for money. And was upfront about it too.
> 
> ...


Except that sex is about intimacy and connecting emotionally and physically, and pleasuring eachother...money IS NOT.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Except that sex is about intimacy and connecting emotionally and physically, and pleasuring eachother...money IS NOT.


well, people have different priorities...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> well, people have different priorities...


Exactly!! Lol!


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Side note. I'm not promoting prostitution mind you but not condemning sex workers either.
> 
> If it was outrageous to all, Las Vegas would do half the business it does if it couldn't promote sexy shows, where many women work.


Of course, it isn't. All vices are lucrative.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Both bad, surely? How can you love someone who doesn't give you sex and prefers prostitutes? And how can you prefer prostitutes when the woman you married is available for sex? It's really baffling.


You'd think that would be a no-brainer, right?? But there are "special" people who either struggle with those concepts or are showing blatant contempt for their spouse.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I read an interesting article about why prostitution is not anywhere near the same as a job or career. Three points.

No experience needed and gaining experience adds no value. No one goes to a brothel asking for the most experienced lady. In fact johns will pay a premium for young, inexperienced women. All other careers value experience to some degree. 

No actual labor is required in prostitution. Obviously there is some amount of labor that goes on, but it isn't needed. You can just be a warm body. You can be unconscious and still get the "job" done. 

The preconditions for consent don't exist. They don't have the freedom to choose their sexual partner, the nature of the sex and freedom to choose the timing. I'm sure some will say a prostitute can turn someone down, no do certain things, etc. However, that isn't how it works in reality. 


Comparing prostitution to other jobs and careers is a ridiculous argument.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Its it better for these women that they work as sex workers or get other jobs? If they couldn't work as stripper's or whatever it is then there would be other options even if it was working in a shop and where would we be without shop workers?


Apparently, it pays better and is easier work if you are ok having no dignity.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> Except that sex is about intimacy and connecting emotionally and physically, and pleasuring eachother...money IS NOT.


I don't disagree but.......


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I read an interesting article about why prostitution is not anywhere near the same as a job or career. Three points.
> 
> No experience needed and gaining experience adds no value. No one goes to a brothel asking for the most experienced lady. In fact johns will pay a premium for young, inexperienced women. All other careers value experience to some degree.
> 
> ...


Very well-laid out post that gets to the nitty-gritty of the matter, thank you.

The bolded above is what many of us have been saying, but the pro-pros crowd thinks it's all sunshine and rainbows for them. I can't imagine treating anyone like that and being ok with it. Regardless of if it's a sex worker or any other kind of worker. And yes, I try to be kind to people from all walks of life unless they are rude first.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I don't disagree but.......


Lol!!!

Ok....BUT...???


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> Lol!!!
> 
> Ok....BUT...???


But thats just how it is with some people.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I read an interesting article about why prostitution is not anywhere near the same as a job or career. Three points.
> 
> No experience needed and gaining experience adds no value. No one goes to a brothel asking for the most experienced lady. In fact johns will pay a premium for young, inexperienced women. All other careers value experience to some degree.
> 
> ...


I disagree that prostitutes are victims. Unless they are being trafficked or are underage, they don't get some special pass from me for selling their bodies to the highest bidder. 

Aren't "sugar babies" prostitutes too?? You can make all the same arguments about them that you do in this post. There are legal brothels in Las Vegas, and those women CHOOSE to do that, just like strippers and Only Fans, etc etc.

TXTrini is very generous (one reason I love her!), but I am not as much. I don't judge them for it, I am not threatened by them either, however, if they are voluntarily providing a service and being compensated for it based on THEIR OWN set price, I certainly don't think they are somehow being taken advantage of.

Do you think they ask the men if they are married before they agree to have sex? Or do they not care as long as they get paid?

And they DO get to refuse if they want to. They charge money for sex acts that other women do for love. If you listen to any of the legal prostitutes or escorts talk about it, they say they feel very "empowered" - not that I believe them, but I certainly don't pity them.

They are NOT victims by my definition. They are doing and getting exactly what they want, and can stop anytime they want to. And they are dealing with all the consequences of their choices, just like the rest of us.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> But thats just how it is with some people.


Yes, but your comparison doesn't work. That's all I was pointing out.

Sex fulfills a different purpose in a relationship than money does.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Heck yeah!
> 
> My ex left our 20 year marriage as according to her "you never end up making as much as we needed to retire comfortably". She bailed out of our marriage for money. And was upfront about it too.
> 
> ...


Wow, that's nuts!

So what did those paragons of virtue bring to the table? I'm amazed when I hear these stories, b/c I have to wonder what kind of gutter trash you men are picking through with those attitudes.

I thought the sugardaddy thing was limited to 20 y/os who had more greed than sense, but wow. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the offers I got when I was OLD, then. Huh. A few were from guys I'd never look twice at (sorry! women like attractive partners too!) or rich men who thought everything was for sale. There was one I would have dated, dude was sexy, but not for money!

I have to wonder if some men are fine paying for sex because they don't want to be bothered with the intricacies of a relationship and the hassle of dealing with another person's idiosyncrasies, so they'd rather pay for play and go.



FloridaGuy1 said:


> But thats just how it is with some people.


I don't want to know those people. Either sex.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Al_Bundy said:


> It's called modern corporate America.





Diana7 said:


> Its it better for these women that they work as sex workers or get other jobs? If they couldn't work as stripper's or whatever it is then there would be other options even if it was working in a shop and where would we be without shop workers?


Many of those women are groomed, if not captured, from a young age into the profession. I've seen quite a few court transcripts on it. The women are brainwashed or intimidated, or literally enslaved, whether physically by captors or by getting them addicted to drugs or all of the above. 

On the most seemingly harmless level, in a town such as mine -- and I've seen deposition transcripts from employees -- young girls who work at places such as Hooters, where they just wear the "one size and if you don't fit it, you can't work here" flash your boobs uniform -- are then recruited from those places into stripping. From stripping, it's on to the back room and beyond for straight-up prostitution. 

Parents, don't let your girls go to work at boob food places!


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> Yes, but your comparison doesn't work.  That's all I was pointing out.
> 
> Sex fulfills a different purpose in a relationship than money does.


Oh its not my comparison....just look how many older guys are with younger women. That certainly is based on sex and money. Not saying I agree but it exists.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I really can't say. I'm sure, no doubt, some is bad.
> 
> Others, say the professional dancers doing professional chorus line or the glamorous outfits' musicals, or professionally put on shows with hot women in thousand dollar outfits do make very good money and don't get nude but are in sexy get ups.
> 
> ...


I don't think the line dancers in Vegas are reputed to be prostitutes. Of course, some may be on the side. I happen to know a tiny bit about some of those from an extended stay at a casino in the Bahamas decades ago, where I went to the dealers and employees "nontouristy" hangout by invitation a few times. Most of the chorus dancers there were either married or dating dealers. They had some cute dealers there.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> I disagree that prostitutes are victims. Unless they are being trafficked or are underage, they don't get some special pass from me for selling their bodies to the highest bidder.
> 
> Aren't "sugar babies" prostitutes too?? You can make all the same arguments about them that you do in this post. There are legal brothels in Las Vegas, and those women CHOOSE to do that, just like strippers and Only Fans, etc etc.
> 
> ...


I agree that sugar babies and any women who expect money to partake of their "company" are all sex workers, whether they like that label or not. Any smart ass who wants to put wives in that category just **** on off right now, b/c you know very well marriage is completely different.

Btw, OnlyFans is populated by a large percentage of sex workers. So any woman wanting to post on there will be tarred by "birds of a feather". I'll go so far as to include those women who take advantage of lonely gamers on Twitch. The women who are obviously putting their services out, even so, what happened to them to make them choose to do that?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> Wow, that's nuts!
> 
> So what did those paragons of virtue bring to the table? I'm amazed when I hear these stories, b/c I have to wonder what kind of gutter trash you men are picking through with those attitudes.
> 
> ...


That's the thing. It is a bit different in Florida Guy's story, I imagine, but there are men who actively seek out golddiggers because if they have the money to spare, that's how they can get a woman above their attractiveness level and "bang up." That's on them. Golddiggers (and divas, same thing) are extremely obvious about wanting this and that, so you can't miss it. 

A situation in a long marriage sounds more like money woes to me than just a golddigger and I'd hope both of them were working.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> Wow, that's nuts!
> 
> So what did those paragons of virtue bring to the table? I'm amazed when I hear these stories, b/c I have to wonder what kind of gutter trash you men are picking through with those attitudes.
> 
> ...


Ironically these weren't gutter trash women. These were educated professionals who wanted to ensure their new partner could supply cash to the till I suppose? My ex was the same way.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Oh its not my comparison....just look how many older guys are with younger women. That certainly is based on sex and money. Not saying I agree but it exists.


Maybe I misunderstood your original post about it.

I guess what I was thinking was I could be happy in a relationship with no money (or stuff)...but I will never be happy in one with no sex.

They are two separate needs and fulfill two separate purposes in a relationship. Not in a transactional relationship, like prostitutes or "sugar daddies", but in a loving partnership.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Ironically these weren't gutter trash women. These were educated professionals who wanted to ensure their new partner could supply cash to the till I suppose? My ex was the same way.


Did they also supply cash to the till?

If so, ok fine, I get wanting to make sure your partner is on your level. Otherwise, if they're looking for a free ride, then no.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> I agree that sugar babies and any women who expect money to partake of their "company" are all sex workers, whether they like that label or not. Any smart ass who wants to put wives in that category just **** on off right now, b/c you know very well marriage is completely different.
> 
> Btw, OnlyFans is populated by a large percentage of sex workers. So any woman wanting to post on there will be tarred by "birds of a feather". I'll go so far as to include those women who take advantage of lonely gamers on Twitch. *The women who are obviously putting their services out, even so, what happened to them to make them choose to do that?*


I can guarantee you that it's more about the person they are inside than their circumstances.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I disagree that prostitutes are victims. Unless they are being trafficked or are underage, they don't get some special pass from me for selling their bodies to the highest bidder.
> 
> Aren't "sugar babies" prostitutes too?? You can make all the same arguments about them that you do in this post. There are legal brothels in Las Vegas, and those women CHOOSE to do that, just like strippers and Only Fans, etc etc.
> 
> ...


The thing is, for decades, psychological studies have shown sex workers started out as victims in an abusive or bad boundary household, which set them up to be vulnerable to getting into that, for a complex set of reasons, including learning young sex was power or approval to needing to run away from a bad home life and being pimped out, which is a lot of it, to becoming addicted to drugs because of emotional pain. Overall, sex workers are exploited victims going way back.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> The thing is, for decades, psychological studies have shown sex workers started out as victims in an abusive or bad boundary household, which set them up to be vulnerable to getting into that, for a complex set of reasons, including learning young sex was power or approval to needing to run away from a bad home life and being pimped out, which is a lot of it, to becoming addicted to drugs because of emotional pain. Overall, sex workers are exploited victims going way back.


Yeah, but that falls flat for me because I had a very similar upbringing, and I never did that, or even considered it.
Like I said, I don't judge them for any of their choices, but I see them quite strictly as THEIR CHOICES, and feel like they need to own it. They don't get to cash in on their looks and bodies, and when they are done with it, turn around and cry foul.

They can have regrets (like we all do), but the path they are on is the path they chose. If I didn't pick it, no one has to. I'm not saying I'm better, I'm saying I don't make excuses for where I am in my life right now. I OWN my life and the choices that brought me here. Some of them suck, some of them I'm proud of. But they are all mine.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Yeah, but that falls flat for me because I had a very similar upbringing, and I never did that, or even considered it.
> Like I said, I don't judge them for any of their choices, but I see them quite strictly as THEIR CHOICES, and feel like they need to own it. They don't get to cash in on their looks and bodies, and when they are done with it, turn around and cry foul.
> 
> They can have regrets (like we all do), but the path they are on is the path they chose. If I didn't pick it, no one has to. I'm not saying I'm better, I'm saying I don't make excuses for where I am in my life right now. I OWN my life and the choices that brought me here. Some of them suck, some of them I'm proud of. But they are all mine.


You know, you can take two siblings from the same family and one will continue the cycle of abuse and the other will rebel against it and do well, but that's just down to different people's capacities and thinking. People sometimes reproduce abuse as a way to either say it was okay rather than hating their parent or because the parent somehow over time conveyed it was good to be that way. My own dad made only a couple inappropriate remarks he probably thought went over my head about all women could charge for it, making it sound like women are stupid not to, and of course, that stuck with me. I didn't become a prostitute, but I had to get past a phase of thinking sex was the value of a woman (and being on this forum doesn't exactly help get past that!)

It's easy to fall into. I had a college friend who I didn't understand was a working girl. She had this obnoxious shifty little older (like 35) small woman following her around where she wasn't wanted, and I guess I knew her a couple of years before she tried to recruit me into it by inviting me to go with her on a boat with two guys I didn't know. I didn't fall for it, and it was all shocking to me, but I was in a dangerous position. That woman was her pimp. That was in college. I was no angel back then, but I was super naive about anything like that.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> Except that sex is about intimacy and connecting emotionally and physically, and pleasuring eachother...money IS NOT.


It is to some people. Those people suck


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> I disagree that prostitutes are victims. Unless they are being trafficked or are underage, they don't get some special pass from me for selling their bodies to the highest bidder.
> 
> Aren't "sugar babies" prostitutes too?? You can make all the same arguments about them that you do in this post. There are legal brothels in Las Vegas, and those women CHOOSE to do that, just like strippers and Only Fans, etc etc.
> 
> ...


Don't buy the hype. The reality is very grim.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> You know, you can take two siblings from the same family and one will continue the cycle of abuse and the other will rebel against it and do well, but that's just down to different people's capacities and thinking. People sometimes reproduce abuse as a way to either say it was okay rather than hating their parent or because the parent somehow over time conveyed it was good to be that way. My own dad made only a couple inappropriate remarks he probably thought went over my head about all women could charge for it, making it sound like women are stupid not to, and of course, that stuck with me. I didn't become a prostitute, but I had to get past a phase of thinking sex was the value of a woman (and being on this forum doesn't exactly help get past that!)
> 
> It's easy to fall into. I had a college friend who I didn't understand was a working girl. She had this obnoxious shifty little older (like 35) small woman following her around where she wasn't wanted, and I guess I knew her a couple of years before she tried to recruit me into it by inviting me to go with her on a boat with two guys I didn't know. I didn't fall for it, and it was all shocking to me, but I was in a dangerous position. That woman was her pimp. That was in college. I was no angel back then, but I was super naive about anything like that.


It's so funny to me that you brought this point up, because when I went to make lunch, I was thinking of how I wanted to tell you this exact thing too! 

My sister who is 1 1/2yrs younger than I am is the polar opposite of me, although we grew up in exactly the same environment with the same parents and step-parents. If she were younger right now, I have NO doubt she would be an "Only Fans" girl. She did tons of partying and "modeling" in bikinis when she was in college, and got paid to prance around at Biker shows in a bikini, etc etc. She loved it, and actually made fun of ME for being "boring" and too tame, and no fun.

She never regretted any of that, and I think she actually misses the attention and power she felt now that she is in her early 50s. I didn't judge her, but I certainly wouldn't allow her to tell me she was a victim of the men who she showed her body off to. 

"I'm only promiscuous because so many men want me!"....yeah, that doesn't work for me.

There were times I felt desperate, like when I was alone with my 3 tiny kids (under 7yrs old) in a tent at night during a huge Florida rainstorm, or during the times when I gave my kids gum because there wasn't enough food for me to give them lunch. And that's the tip of the ice berg of what I've gone through.

If I had ever chosen to sell myself for any reason (even just for the money), I would NOT feel ashamed, because I would know it was MY choice.

But I didn't. I made different choices. And I'm living with the consequences of THOSE. And I'm perfectly ok with that.

I don't give myself a free pass, and I won't give anyone else one either.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Numb26 said:


> It is to some people. Those people suck


YES. It's a good filter for me though!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Don't buy the hype. The reality is very grim.


Do you think it's as grim for strippers and Sugar Daddies too? 

I'm really asking.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> Do you think it's as grim for strippers and Sugar Daddies too?
> 
> I'm really asking.


Most strippers are not in a good place and any source that glorifies or tries to normalize it are propaganda pushers. They are low level prostitutes and they know it. Even though touching isn't allowed, in most places, they know what they are selling and very similar damage occurs to their views of men and themselves.

I actually have no real idea about sugar babies though I believe they are exclusive, or monogamous prostitutes? They probably experience less damage because they are with one person for an extended time. I don't know but it would seem sugar babies might be in a less grim environment though they will still damage themselves emotionally when it comes to how they view men and relationships.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Most strippers are not in a good place and any source that glorifies or tries to normalize it are propaganda pushers. They are low level prostitutes and they know it. Even though touching isn't allowed, in most places, they know what they are selling and very similar damage occurs to their views of men and themselves.
> 
> I actually have no real idea about sugar babies though I believe they are exclusive, or monogamous prostitutes? They probably experience less damage because they are with one person for an extended time. I don't know but it would seem sugar babies might be in a less grim environment though they will still damage themselves emotionally when it comes to how they view men and relationships.


If you are saying it's grim for the prostitutes because they develop a hatred for men and sex in general, I'm sure you must be correct.

Did you ever watch the HBO show about the Moonlight Bunny Ranch in Vegas? It's been referenced here a few times, and it's a fascinating study of prostitution. I think you would get alot out of it, because they interview the girls, and like DownBytheRiver said, some of them said they would never give blowjobs again, or do certain sex acts again, once they were married.

And then others talked about how the whole environment was sexy, and the girls would spontaneously have sex with eachother when there were no guys around, or they would all be masturbating. Or giving sex toy demonstrations to older women.

It appeared very positive from THEIR viewpoints, but there was an undercurrent of ugliness that you could feel...for example, whenever any of the girls laughed, there was a hollowness to the sound that hurt me. It was like I was looking at cardboard people.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> If you are saying it's grim for the prostitutes because they develop a hatred for men and sex in general, I'm sure you must be correct.
> 
> Did you ever watch the HBO show about the Moonlight Bunny Ranch in Vegas? It's been referenced here a few times, and it's a fascinating study of prostitution. I think you would get alot out of it, because they interview the girls, and like DownBytheRiver said, some of them said they would never give blowjobs again, or do certain sex acts again, once they were married.
> 
> ...


That was a big hype/puff piece. Your perception about underlying ugliness was spot on.

There are far more accurate accounts of just how "lovely" being a prostitute really is but they aren't popular.

It degrades the very soul and destroys a person and that's not even touching on the physical wear and diseases that are rampant.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> That was a big hype/puff piece. Your perception about underlying ugliness was spot on.
> 
> There are far more accurate accounts of just how "lovely" being a prostitute really is but they aren't popular.
> 
> It degrades the very soul and destroys a person and that's not even touching on the physical wear and diseases that are rampant.


I agree...that's why I was willing to struggle and live a very tiny little life instead of choose that path.

I remember when you could post yourself on Craigslist as selling sex...there were TONS of women who happily did that. Very normal, lower-middle-class women. I was shocked.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> I disagree that prostitutes are victims. Unless they are being trafficked or are underage, they don't get some special pass from me for selling their bodies to the highest bidder.
> 
> Aren't "sugar babies" prostitutes too?? You can make all the same arguments about them that you do in this post. There are legal brothels in Las Vegas, and those women CHOOSE to do that, just like strippers and Only Fans, etc etc.
> 
> ...


They are victims. Here are some stats from NIH about adult prostitutes in San Francisco.

57% were sexually assaulted as children
82% have been physically assaulted
68% have been raped while working
68% met the DSM criteria for PTSD

From Maryland Coalition Against Sexual Assault compiling national data
82% have been physically assaulted
84% experienced current or past homelessness
83% had been threatened with a weapon


Sure there are some "reputable" brothels, but that is way, way far from the norm. Those 68% who got raped didn't get to turn someone down. I will take whatever a prostitute says with a grain of salt, given that the vast majority are suffering from PTSD that it going to twist their reality. I really question how many actually choose to do this. What other "job" is there where you have a 3 in 4 chance of being raped during the course of your "career"? Who in their right mind would choose to do that?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> They are victims. Here are some stats from NIH about adult prostitutes in San Francisco.
> 
> 57% were sexually assaulted as children
> 82% have been physically assaulted
> ...


I don't dispute that they are victims of all those things you listed.

And I already said I am not talking about street walkers on drugs or women who have been trafficked or are underage.
I'm curious what those stats would be if you removed those women from the tally.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> I don't dispute that they are victims of all those things you listed.
> 
> And I already said I am not talking about street walkers on drugs or women who have been trafficked or are underage.
> I'm curious what those stats would be if you removed those women from the tally.


Yeah, that's a stat that is probably impossible to come up with given the underworld nature of the business. The problem is even the classy prostitutes are being controlled by someone in most cases and/or they have some sort of mental issue or even diagnosable mental disorder.

It is very anecdotal, but have you heard the story of Suzy Favor Hamilton? She was runner on the US Olympic team. Competed in 3 Olympics. She became a high-end escort. She had undiagnosed mental disorders which made her vulnerable. A threesome with her husband of 20 years and another woman, who was an escort got her hooked on the rush. That woman talked her into selling herself to other men and her husband encouraged her. That story is pretty crazy, but I bet there are a million permutations of that story. The nature of sex work draws in the most damaged and vulnerable women in the world and traps them.

As for Bunny Ranch. I suspect many of those women have issues too. And I wouldn't believe the HBO show is a real portrayal any more than Keeping Up with the Keeping Up With the Kardashians or any other so called reality show.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> Yeah, but that falls flat for me because I had a very similar upbringing, and I never did that, or even considered it.
> Like I said, I don't judge them for any of their choices, but I see them quite strictly as THEIR CHOICES, and feel like they need to own it. They don't get to cash in on their looks and bodies, and when they are done with it, turn around and cry foul.
> 
> They can have regrets (like we all do), but the path they are on is the path they chose. If I didn't pick it, no one has to. I'm not saying I'm better, I'm saying I don't make excuses for where I am in my life right now. I OWN my life and the choices that brought me here. Some of them suck, some of them I'm proud of. But they are all mine.


Here's the thing about comparison I've learned. Everyone is different, some people are weaker than others and more easily lead regardless of their upbringing. Just like you noticed with how differently you and your sister turned out. 

Yes, choices result in action and consequences, but people aren't all equal, some are not playing with a full mental deck. 



LisaDiane said:


> If you are saying it's grim for the prostitutes because they develop a hatred for men and sex in general, I'm sure you must be correct.
> 
> Did you ever watch the HBO show about the Moonlight Bunny Ranch in Vegas? It's been referenced here a few times, and it's a fascinating study of prostitution. I think you would get alot out of it, because they interview the girls, and like DownBytheRiver said, some of them said they would never give blowjobs again, or do certain sex acts again, once they were married.
> 
> ...


I saw that documentary and thought the same thing. It was like they were trying to convince themselves they were happy, I felt sick.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> It is to some people. Those people suck


And not in a good way!
Muaaahahahaha

Couldn't resist, sorry.
_goes back in the corner_


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> And not in a good way!
> Muaaahahahaha
> 
> Couldn't resist, sorry.
> _goes back in the corner_


"hands you a drink"


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> They are victims. Here are some stats from NIH about adult prostitutes in San Francisco.
> 
> 57% were sexually assaulted as children
> 82% have been physically assaulted
> ...


I have known a few of them and I still don't see them as victims, sorry. A lot of those hookers that have been assaulted or whatever while on the job, what they don't talk about is how many guys they stole from, had their pimps beat up or rob, etc. Yes, bad things happen to them, and I am NOT victim blaming but they are knowingly taking part in an underworld of crime and violence that most people know nothing about. They are both predator, and prey. 

It was just in the local news here last month when 2 well known street walkers and their boyfriends finally got arrested for a string of robberies. They've been robbing people in the area for months if not years. Are they victims if they enter into this sort of life? I have links to the news article where they got arrested but it has faces and names and I would rather not put people on blast, even if they are criminals.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> Its it better for these women that they work as sex workers or get other jobs? If they couldn't work as stripper's or whatever it is then there would be other options even if it was working in a shop and where would we be without shop workers?


That all depends on your perspective. Some girls are just plain too dumb, spoiled, entitled, or almost useless to hold an actual job where you are expected to get out of bed and go to work each day. Others are pretty and talented enough to do other things but the message to young ladies these days is that their sexuality is empowering and they should make money from it. You can go on sites like Tiktok which are heavily populated by OnlyFans girls, strippers, and the like, many of them bragging about how much money they make working as an "accountant."


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Ironically these weren't gutter trash women. These were educated professionals who wanted to ensure their new partner could supply cash to the till I suppose? My ex was the same way.


There are different reasons for that. One is you want to make sure some guy isn't living off you. Another is and this one I've encountered over and over again, it bothers the men were more than it bothered me that I made more money than them, and I didn't make hardly any money, but I was often dating starving musicians. It seems to bother most men's ego if they don't make more than their wife women know that. I think that is changing. Plus women of a certain age are probably going to get pregnant, so they need to know that someone is willing to step up and can step up, just exactly as it has been for centuries. 

And then you do just have some women who are just greedy just like some men are greedy. They want to compete with the Joneses and have all their toys and all their designer crap. I think those are probably the group who are really abusing the system. And those are the ones that I am talking about when I say if you keep running into that you're running with the wrong crowd. 

If you don't hang out with a materialistic crowd, you won't run into that.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> Most strippers are not in a good place and any source that glorifies or tries to normalize it are propaganda pushers. They are low level prostitutes and they know it. Even though touching isn't allowed, in most places, they know what they are selling and very similar damage occurs to their views of men and themselves.


Don't let anyone telling you strippers are anything other than hookers, because that's precisely what they are. They dance in the club in the evenings, meet johns there, then sell extra services to those guys after the club closes. That's where the real money is for most of those girls, not in dancing for sweaty cash on a bar. That's the reality of it. What they tell people is usually far more romantic, that they are just some single mom, struggling to put themselves through college or some crap. The lies make people tip more.



> I actually have no real idea about sugar babies though I believe they are exclusive, or monogamous prostitutes? They probably experience less damage because they are with one person for an extended time. I don't know but it would seem sugar babies might be in a less grim environment though they will still damage themselves emotionally when it comes to how they view men and relationships.


There is a lot of overlap in the sex worker world. A stripper is not just a stripper, and a sugar baby is not just a sugar baby. They do both. And they do prostitution, and massage, and porn, and OnlyFans, all of it. I'm sure some girls just do one thing but I have known a few and they mostly did a bit of everything. Anything to pay the bills.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> There are legal brothels in Las Vegas,


Point of order. There are NO legal brothels in Las Vegas. The county prohibits them. There are some in some of the others counties, but not Clark County. The closest one is actually an hour away.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> Yes, but your comparison doesn't work. That's all I was pointing out.
> 
> Sex fulfills a different purpose in a relationship than money does.


In a relationship yes, but that doesn't always mean that sex is seen by a person as only belonging to a relationship. As I noted before, some people hold that there is a difference between sex and love making.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Oh its not my comparison....just look how many older guys are with younger women. That certainly is based on sex and money. Not saying I agree but it exists.


Hey, don't forget about cougars!


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Enigma32 said:


> I have known a few of them and I still don't see them as victims, sorry. A lot of those hookers that have been assaulted or whatever while on the job, what they don't talk about is how many guys they stole from, had their pimps beat up or rob, etc. Yes, bad things happen to them, and I am NOT victim blaming but they are knowingly taking part in an underworld of crime and violence that most people know nothing about. They are both predator, and prey.
> 
> It was just in the local news here last month when 2 well known street walkers and their boyfriends finally got arrested for a string of robberies. They've been robbing people in the area for months if not years. Are they victims if they enter into this sort of life? I have links to the news article where they got arrested but it has faces and names and I would rather not put people on blast, even if they are criminals.


Didn't your mom ever tell you two wrongs don't make a right? Lol

Yes, many prostitutes commit other crimes, but it doesn't mean they aren't a victim. Getting raped is getting raped, even if you are a criminal


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Didn't your mom ever tell you two wrongs don't make a right? Lol
> 
> Yes, many prostitutes commit other crimes, but it doesn't mean they aren't a victim. Getting raped is getting raped, even if you are a criminal


You're right, of course. I've just run into a few too many of these girls over the years and I have very little sympathy for them anymore.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Enigma32 said:


> You're right, of course. I've just run into a few too many of these girls over the years and I have very little sympathy for them anymore.


Agreed, same with dealers. Nobody forces them into that life. They often think it's easy and quick money and don't bother to think about down the road.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> Point of order. There are NO legal brothels in Las Vegas. The county prohibits them. There are some in some of the others counties, but not Clark County. The closest one is actually an hour away.


So why the heck do they call it Sin City?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> So why the heck do they call it Sin City?


Because there is a lot of other vices, gambling being a big one. But prostitution is not legal in Las Vegas/Clark County. That's not to say it's not present, just not legal. And it's a common misconception especially since it is legal in other counties in Nevada.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> Because there is a lot of other vices, gambling being a big one. But prostitution is not legal in Las Vegas/Clark County. That's not to say it's not present, just not legal. And it's a common misconception especially since it is legal in other counties in Nevada.


Yeah, I thought it was sex, drugs and rock'n'roll central. Thanks for the info!


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> So why the heck do they call it Sin City?


It's been a few years since I was there, but if you are a guy (or a group of guys) just walking around there, random people walk up and hand you a "business card" from a beautiful woman with her number who will gladly meet you in your hotel room...😳......So while technically not legal, there really didn't seem to be much resistance to it....it was everywhere.. 

Also, It's well known that they have paid for limo service if you want to go to the legal places from the city...


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

hamadryad said:


> It's been a few years since I was there, but if you are a guy (or a group of guys) just walking around there, random people walk up and hand you a "business card" from a beautiful woman with her number who will gladly meet you in your hotel room...😳......So while technically not legal, there really didn't seem to be much resistance to it....it was everywhere..
> 
> Also, It's well known that they have paid for limo service if you want to go to the legal places from the city...


My ex wife had some hot looking woman approach her with a card and told her to come visit as we were walking down the street in Vegas years ago. I knew what it was but still had to ask the ex, "So, are we going?!" with this huge cheesy grin on my face.

Needless to say, the ex didn't find it funny  and we didn't go see the hot hooker 

DAMN!!!


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

I was there 3 weeks ago. It may not be "legal" but in at least 1 of the nicer hotels on the strip you can order "personal" room service a-la-cart thru the hotel TV/system just like food - so they obviously look the other way, don't enforce. Not that I would know... lol.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

hamadryad said:


> It's been a few years since I was there, but if you are a guy (or a group of guys) just walking around there, random people walk up and hand you a "business card" from a beautiful woman with her number who will gladly meet you in your hotel room...😳......So while technically not legal, there really didn't seem to be much resistance to it....it was everywhere..
> 
> Also, It's well known that they have paid for limo service if you want to go to the legal places from the city...


My ex MIL told me she and exFIL were approached like that, that was years ago.

I thought that stuff was just on TV 😂. Good thing it's not on my bucket list.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

Some interesting opinions on this thread. As I'm of rather low moral character (  ) my opinion on "these" women isn't as negative. I've been to strip clubs including with both my wives. My first even participated a few times on amature night. I can say without a doubt those are pretty awesome memories and after... amazing. I certainly don't think she was damaged or troubled or look down on her or any of that for doing. In fact I know she thought it was pretty thrilling, exciting at the time. I never heard her express any regrets and I certainly don't have any about.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Don't buy the hype. The reality is very grim.


There's a tremendous solution, that would go a long way to fixing that.

Of which for the sake of sex workers, I am glad I live in a State where that solution has been applied.

*What do sex workers want? | Juno Mac | TEDxEastEnd - YouTube*






"Everyone has an opinion about sex work, but what does sex worker Juno Mac think? Juno takes us through four different legal models addressing the sex industry and explains why they -- and sex workers around the world -- believe decriminalization and self-determination are the only way to keep sex workers safe."

*Someone you love could be a sex worker | Valerie Scott | TEDxToronto - YouTube*






"Valerie Scott always wanted to be a sex worker and has extensive experience in her chosen profession. She is a founding member and legal co-ordinator of Sex Professionals of Canada, a sex worker rights organization. She has been a passionate advocate for her colleague's human, civil, and legal rights for the past 30 years. She has testified at Canada's Senate and at several Parliamentary committees. She has spoken at numerous community meetings, colleges, universities, and conferences about the humanity of sex workers and the need for full decriminalization of adult sex work."

*The movement to decriminalize sex work, explained - Vox*

"Catherine Healy, the national coordinator of the New Zealand Prostitutes’ Collective, was honored by Britain’s Queen Elizabeth II for her work advocating for sex workers on June 5, 2018, in Wellington, New Zealand."

*Why Sex Work Should Be Decriminalized - Human Rights Watch*

"Criminalizing adult, voluntary, and consensual sex – including the commercial exchange of sexual services – is incompatible with the human right to personal autonomy and privacy. In short – a government should not be telling consenting adults who they can have sexual relations with and on what terms."

*Sex Workers’ Rights are Human Rights - Amnesty International*

"We would like to claim to be the first to address this issue. But we are not. Other groups which support or are calling for the decriminalization of sex work include the World Health Organization, UNAIDS, International Labour Organization, the Global Alliance Against Trafficking in Women, the Global Network of Sex Work Projects, the Global Commission on HIV and the Law, Human Rights Watch, the Open Society Foundations and Anti-Slavery International."

*Why Prostitution Should Be Legal - Harper's Bazaar*

"If there is something to be afraid of regarding people entering sex work—beyond the fact that it is a very dangerous profession—is that it tends to render women voiceless. Society will too easily dismiss what they have to say because many people have been told that they do not need to listen to sex workers, or regard them with anything other than disgust or pity."

*Decriminalising sex work in New Zealand: its history and impact - Open Democracy*

"The sex industry has not increased in size, and many of the social evils predicted by some who opposed the decriminalisation of the sex industry have not been experienced. On the whole, the PRA has been effective in achieving its purpose, and the Committee is confident that the vast majority of people involved in the sex industry are better off under the PRA than they were previously."


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

2&out said:


> I was there 3 weeks ago. It may not be "legal" but in at least 1 of the nicer hotels on the strip you can order "personal" room service a-la-cart thru the hotel TV/system just like food - so they obviously look the other way, don't enforce. Not that I would know... lol.





2&out said:


> Some interesting opinions on this thread. As I'm of rather low moral character (  ) my opinion on "these" women isn't as negative. I've been to strip clubs including with both my wives. My first even participated a few times on amature night. I can say without a doubt those are pretty awesome memories and after... amazing. I certainly don't think she was damaged or troubled or look down on her or any of that for doing. In fact I know she thought it was pretty thrilling, exciting at the time. I never heard her express any regrets and I certainly don't have any about.


Lolol!!!!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Personal said:


> There's a tremendous solution, that would go a long way to fixing that.
> 
> Of which for the sake of sex workers, I am glad I live in a State where that solution has been applied.
> 
> ...


Happy hoes promoting prostitution can be found and quite a few more who despise it.

I will never be for this repulsive practice and pray daily for the destruction of the industry.

I will concede that if someone is going to do something this repulsive and ugly, being safer about it makes sense even if their "career" choices don't.

Asking anyone of a similar mind as myself to endorse this behavior by legalizing it has about the same chance as monkeys flying out of the pope's pooper.

I'm definitely for investing in getting women out.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

T me


ConanHub said:


> Happy hoes promoting prostitution can be found and quite a few more who despise it.
> 
> I will never be for this repulsive practice and pray daily for the destruction of the industry.
> 
> ...


 It's like legalizing certain drugs. You dont make something ok by legalizing it. 
I would love to see loads of women leave prostitution.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

I hold the Libertarian view on decriminalization of drugs and prostitution. I say it should be legal. Just because I disagree with it personally does not mean I believe others should be arrested for taking part. As it is now, we basically apply the "look the other way" approach to prostitution anyway. You drive around the right neighborhoods here, you will see prostitution going on openly. It's not like the cops are out there busting them. There are also plenty of those Asian massage places around here and the only time one of them gets shut down is if someone's wife or girlfriend complains, then the police suddenly "discover" they have been operating without a permit. I don't think making things legal is going to encourage a bunch of people who disagree with these things to suddenly indulge. Tell me, if smoking crack was suddenly legal, will you get a pipe and smoke it? I won't.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Enigma32 said:


> I hold the Libertarian view on decriminalization of drugs and prostitution. I say it should be legal. Just because I disagree with it personally does not mean I believe others should be arrested for taking part. As it is now, we basically apply the "look the other way" approach to prostitution anyway. You drive around the right neighborhoods here, you will see prostitution going on openly. It's not like the cops are out there busting them. There are also plenty of those Asian massage places around here and the only time one of them gets shut down is if someone's wife or girlfriend complains, then the police suddenly "discover" they have been operating without a permit. I don't think making things legal is going to encourage a bunch of people who disagree with these things to suddenly indulge. Tell me, if smoking crack was suddenly legal, will you get a pipe and smoke it? I won't.


Agree. I struggled with this for a long time because I felt like legalizing was implicit approval. But honestly, are we ever going to get rid of prostitution? It’s been around as long as there have been people. By legalizing and regulating, we can at least make it safer. People who will do harmful things will do harmful things. We can’t stop that. But we can remove some of the incentive to traffic and force people.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> I hold the Libertarian view on decriminalization of drugs and prostitution. I say it should be legal. Just because I disagree with it personally does not mean I believe others should be arrested for taking part. As it is now, we basically apply the "look the other way" approach to prostitution anyway. You drive around the right neighborhoods here, you will see prostitution going on openly. It's not like the cops are out there busting them. There are also plenty of those Asian massage places around here and the only time one of them gets shut down is if someone's wife or girlfriend complains, then the police suddenly "discover" they have been operating without a permit. I don't think making things legal is going to encourage a bunch of people who disagree with these things to suddenly indulge. Tell me, if smoking crack was suddenly legal, will you get a pipe and smoke it? I won't.


Marijuana use increased dramatically with the legalization of it. Just statistics.

I'm all for busting the pathetic men that buy women and taking it a little easier on the women. Double standard? Sure but I live that double standard every day.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

How do you compare statistics for something that was illegal and most people hid or lied about doing? I’m not looking to start a fight, I just question stats for something people wouldn’t admit to and do in secret.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> Marijuana use increased dramatically with the legalization of it. Just statistics.
> 
> I'm all for busting the pathetic men that buy women and taking it a little easier on the women. Double standard? Sure but I live that double standard every day.


Studies have been done on this and the use of MJ was increasing prior to legalization. I do read statistics so I've always got something ready when I post here  It's kinda a hobby of mine.

https://www.cato.org/policy-analysi...ons-2021-update#marijuana-other-substance-use

If you'd like to punish men for renting prostitutes but use kid gloves on the ladies, that's your choice. However, you're going to have to make a tradeoff. Police are generally under-funded as they are, so a focus on picking up johns is going to take resources away from something else. I generally agree with the shaming method we often use now. Stick a guy's face and name online and say what he was arrested for. The stigma of picking up a hooker is usually enough punishment for a lot of guys.

You never answered my question about the crack pipe. No one ever does though.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

One need only look as far as the Netherlands for why we should all support decriminalization. Not for the sake of the Johns, but for the sake of the workers.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Agree. I struggled with this for a long time because I felt like legalizing was implicit approval. But honestly, are we ever going to get rid of prostitution? It’s been around as long as there have been people. By legalizing and regulating, we can at least make it safer. People who will do harmful things will do harmful things. We can’t stop that. But we can remove some of the incentive to traffic and force people.


Yup. They call it the oldest profession for a reason. Technically, it's also a victimless crime. It's a crime of faith-based morality only, and one that reality has shown to be rather pointless. This is why when one side, Left or Right, gets too much power, you KNOW they will start to regulate and control people's lives based on their personal beliefs. That is why I generally side with the Libertarians when it comes to this sort of thing.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> Studies have been done on this and the use of MJ was increasing prior to legalization. I do read statistics so I've always got something ready when I post here  It's kinda a hobby of mine.
> 
> The Effect of State Marijuana Legalizations: 2021 Update
> 
> ...


I was at ground zero in two states that just legalized it and it definitely increased.

Nothing like seeing a paranoid middle aged man parked in my driveway afraid to pick up his daughter from two houses down.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I was at ground zero in two states that just legalized it and it definitely increased.
> 
> Nothing like seeing a paranoid middle aged man parked in my driveway afraid to pick up his daughter from two houses down.


I say legalize it all and let nature take its course


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> Yup. They call it the oldest profession for a reason. Technically, it's also a victimless crime. It's a crime of faith-based morality only, and one that reality has shown to be rather pointless. This is why when one side, Left or Right, gets too much power, you KNOW they will start to regulate and control people's lives based on their personal beliefs. That is why I generally side with the Libertarians when it comes to this sort of thing.


Send your daughter in that direction and get back to me on your perspective.

Marry a prostitute and I might start giving you credibility.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I was at ground zero in two states that just legalized it and it definitely increased.
> 
> Nothing like seeing a paranoid middle aged man parked in my driveway afraid to pick up his daughter from two houses down.


You should have read the study I posted, or at least skimmed it. MJ use has increased, and it has been increasing since before decriminalization. 

I notice you still ignore my question about whether you would smoke a crack pipe if it were made legal.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> I say legalize it all and let nature take its course


Destroying civilization back to tribalism is certainly nature taking it's course.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Send your daughter in that direction and get back to me on your perspective.
> 
> Marry a prostitute and I might start giving you credibility.


There are some here that would support their daughters doing it


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Enigma32 said:


> Yup. They call it the oldest profession for a reason. Technically, it's also a victimless crime. It's a crime of faith-based morality only, and one that reality has shown to be rather pointless. This is why when one side, Left or Right, gets too much power, you KNOW they will start to regulate and control people's lives based on their personal beliefs. That is why I generally side with the Libertarians when it comes to this sort of thing.


As will I. Some of the hard right-wingers on this site like to apply the word "liberal" to me like it's some kind of insult (so Rush Limbaugh era). But I am an absolute hard-core social libertarian.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> Send your daughter in that direction and get back to me on your perspective.
> 
> Marry a prostitute and I might start giving you credibility.


I already said I disagree with prostitution personally, so why would I marry a prostitute? I also would not marry a car salesman or an actress, but I will watch a movie and buy a car. Your argument is completely irrelevant. It's good that I am content without earning your approval.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> You should have read the study I posted, or at least skimmed it. MJ use has increased, and it has been increasing since before decriminalization.
> 
> I notice you still ignore my question about whether you would smoke a crack pipe if it were made legal.


I still see you are ignoring the fact that many, who aren't you or me, will absolutely try something legal but wouldn't when it wasn't legal.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Destroying civilization back to tribalism is certainly nature taking it's course.


You say that like it's a bad thing 🤣🤣🤣


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Cletus said:


> As will I. Some of the hard right-wingers on this site like to apply the word "liberal" to me like it's some kind of insult (so Rush Limbaugh era). But I am an absolute hard-core social libertarian.


Hey, we agree on something. Not often for you and I. That's why it's fun to be a Libertarian though. Both sides end up hating me in the end.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> I already said I disagree with prostitution personally, so why would I marry a prostitute? I also would not marry a car salesman or an actress, but I will watch a movie and buy a car. Your argument is completely irrelevant. It's good that I am content without earning your approval.


LoL! I don't give a **** about approval and could care less about that aspect.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I still see you are ignoring the fact that many, who aren't you or me, will absolutely try something legal but wouldn't when it wasn't legal.


Then I will address my question to the board then. Who here that currently disagrees morally with prostitution will suddenly decide to try it if it becomes legal? Is it the illegality of the thing that holds you back or the morality?

I ask the same question of drug use. Is anyone here itching to try smoking the crack rock but hasn't done so because of a fear of the law? Or is it your own sense of morality holding you back?

Let us see what others say, shall we?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> You say that like it's a bad thing 🤣🤣🤣


It is. I understand the attraction but the necessary loss of life and misery index involved isn't worth it even though I am a barbarian.🙂


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> Then I will address my question to the board then. Who here that currently disagrees morally with prostitution will suddenly decide to try it if it becomes legal? Is it the illegality of the thing that holds you back or the morality?
> 
> I ask the same question of drug use. Is anyone here itching to try smoking the crack rock but hasn't done so because of a fear of the law? Or is it your own sense of morality holding you back?
> 
> Let us see what others say, shall we?


I have no issue with either being legalized but I definitely won't be partaking of either.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> Then I will address my question to the board then. Who here that currently disagrees morally with prostitution will suddenly decide to try it if it becomes legal? Is it the legality of the thing that holds you back or the morality?
> 
> I ask the same question of drug use. Is anyone here itching to try smoking the crack rock but hasn't done so because of a fear of the law? Or is it your own sense of morality holding you back?
> 
> Let us see what others say, shall we?


I know definitively that if government endorses it and there are no legal repercussions and fewer social repercussions that many, who don't post here, would start doing it who formerly wouldn't. It doesn't speak well to individual integrity and strength but it's real.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Enigma32 said:


> Let us see what others say, shall we?


MJ was legalized in my state some time ago. 

I haven't tried it since college. I fear my wife more than I fear the state. 

Now hunting the ultimate prey? Hmm.....


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> It is. I understand the attraction but the necessary loss of life and misery index involved isn't worth it even though I am a barbarian.🙂


We won't always agree but it's good having a barbarian on my side


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Enigma32 said:


> Yup. They call it the oldest profession for a reason. Technically, it's also a victimless crime. It's a crime of faith-based morality only, and one that reality has shown to be rather pointless. This is why when one side, Left or Right, gets too much power, you KNOW they will start to regulate and control people's lives based on their personal beliefs. That is why I generally side with the Libertarians when it comes to this sort of thing.


Same. Some women enjoy the attention. They’re young and beautiful and can make a ton of money really fast. I was around 30 and had just ended my relationship with the church (after a nasty breakup) when I reconnected with a friend from high school. I got a whole long talk from her about how much money I could make, since I looked really young and had been through absolute hell and was SUPER skinny with giant boobs. I knew her growing up; her parents were absolutely lovely people. She had a wonderful life, it wasn't the result of childhood trauma or anything. She was putting herself through grad school (her parents were lovely but not wealthy) and she was able to make three times the money she'd made bartending in half the hours and was able to manage her school schedule without being exhausted and sleep deprived. There's absolutely no reason why she needed anyone to protect her. 

And you are totally correct, give people too much power over your life and they will start to try to control you. No adult wants control of another adult for good reasons, everyone just needs to mind their own beeswax unless someone is being actively harmed. (real harm, not "spiritual" harm)


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Enigma32 said:


> Then I will address my question to the board then. Who here that currently disagrees morally with prostitution will suddenly decide to try it if it becomes legal? Is it the illegality of the thing that holds you back or the morality?
> 
> I ask the same question of drug use. Is anyone here itching to try smoking the crack rock but hasn't done so because of a fear of the law? Or is it your own sense of morality holding you back?
> 
> Let us see what others say, shall we?


To my mind there is an enormous difference between pot, hookers and blow. I would definitely partake in more pot if it were legal here, but it would be what I did instead of wine to save calories. Crack, while I understand is a GREAT diet aid, tears up your teeth and makes your hair fall out, so no. While I don't want to take away a woman's right to do with her body as she pleases, I don't personally agree with prostitution and don't think it's a healthy or good thing as it reduces women and womanhood to a commodity, much the way porn does. It's dehumanizing in my opinion, so regardless of how the woman doing it feels, I feel it dehumanizes her and wouldn't participate or would encourage others not to do it. But I feel the same way about swinging and swapping, it's all the dehumanization and devaluing of women. If someone else, like one of my close friends, wants to do it, more power to her. It's not for me.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> To my mind there is an enormous difference between pot, hookers and blow. I would definitely partake in more pot if it were legal here, but it would be what I did instead of wine to save calories. Crack, while I understand is a GREAT diet aid, tears up your teeth and makes your hair fall out, so no. While I don't want to take away a woman's right to do with her body as she pleases, I don't personally agree with prostitution and don't think it's a healthy or good thing as it reduces women and womanhood to a commodity, much the way porn does. It's dehumanizing in my opinion, so regardless of how the woman doing it feels, I feel it dehumanizes her and wouldn't participate or would encourage others not to do it. But I feel the same way about swinging and swapping, it's all the dehumanization and devaluing of women. If someone else, like one of my close friends, wants to do it, more power to her. It's not for me.


You could sell pot! Smoke more pot and leave the wine alone. A new diet trend! Personally, I have never wanted to try the stuff. My mind is a scary enough place without introducing mind altering substances. I know plenty of potheads though, and the law never seemed to deter them. Thanks for your input!


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It's dehumanizing in my opinion, so _regardless of how the woman doing it feels_, I feel it dehumanizes her and wouldn't participate or would encourage others not to do it.


Seems an odd position to take for someone so adamant about female empowerment. "Regardless of how the woman doing it feels" completely removes her agency from the argument.

I listen to The Savage Love podcast. He has a fellow The Stranger contributor, Mistress Matisse, who is a professional dominatrix who has made a great living doing what she does. By her own account she seems to enjoy the work, and not only for the money it brings it.

Why do we get to invalidate her experience?


----------



## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> You could sell pot! Smoke more pot and leave the wine alone. A new diet trend! Personally, I have never wanted to try the stuff. My mind is a scary enough place without introducing mind altering substances. I know plenty of potheads though, and the law never seemed to deter them. Thanks for your input!


Pot would definitely NOT be a diet aid for me 🤣🤣


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Enigma32 said:


> You could sell pot! Smoke more pot and leave the wine alone.


Everyone knows the real money is in the Doritos.



> A new diet trend!


See above.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> It's been a few years since I was there, but if you are a guy (or a group of guys) just walking around there, random people walk up and hand you a "business card" from a beautiful woman with her number who will gladly meet you in your hotel room.


It’s still like that, the ground in front of the Bellagio is littered with them.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Enigma32 said:


> You could sell pot! Smoke more pot and leave the wine alone. A new diet trend! Personally, I have never wanted to try the stuff. My mind is a scary enough place without introducing mind altering substances. I know plenty of potheads though, and the law never seemed to deter them. Thanks for your input!


I don't smoke, I prefer edibles, when we are out of state or somewhere where it's legal. Smoking is bad for your lungs. I struggle on the Peloton as it is, I don't need anything else making that harder. 

My mind is an absolutely terrifying place. Pot is very calming and slows the mania. Well, you have to tell the person at the store what you want it to do because there are different kinds, but you can get the kind that just mellows you out.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Cletus said:


> Seems an odd position to take for someone so adamant about female empowerment. "Regardless of how the woman doing it feels" completely removes her agency from the argument.
> 
> I listen to The Savage Love podcast. He has a fellow The Stranger contributor, Mistress Matisse, who is a professional dominatrix who has made a great living doing what she does. By her own account she seems to enjoy the work, and not only for the money it brings it.
> 
> Why do we get to invalidate her experience?


I don't mean to invalidate her experience, I have expressed myself poorly I think. I mean, regardless of what _she_ thinks about it, it doesn't change how _I _feel about it. But as you say, it's her life and not mine. I have no desire to change her mind. Her life is her life. But I don't have any intention of changing my position on it because her experience was inconsistent with what I think.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Cletus said:


> Everyone knows the real money is in the Doritos.


The key is to go to bed BEFORE the munchies set in. Because yes, that is an issue. Don't take a gummy and start a movie, you'll be elbow deep in Oreos and goldfish crackers by the start of the third act.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> I hold the Libertarian view on decriminalization of drugs and prostitution. I say it should be legal. Just because I disagree with it personally does not mean I believe others should be arrested for taking part. As it is now, we basically apply the "look the other way" approach to prostitution anyway. You drive around the right neighborhoods here, you will see prostitution going on openly. It's not like the cops are out there busting them. There are also plenty of those Asian massage places around here and the only time one of them gets shut down is if someone's wife or girlfriend complains, then the police suddenly "discover" they have been operating without a permit. I don't think making things legal is going to encourage a bunch of people who disagree with these things to suddenly indulge. Tell me, if smoking crack was suddenly legal, will you get a pipe and smoke it? I won't.


Honestly, I'm on the fence about it and I'm usually a live and let live kind of person. It's certainly a great potential source of tax revenue and should be heavily taxed the way alcohol and tobacco are. The prostitutes might be better treated and get benefits. However, that job does come with increased health risks, so I would hope they'd be charged accordingly. 

It sure would be easier to keep track of who made use of their services and keep people's choices transparent. That way, women who don't want to marry or remain married or in relationships with johns will be well informed.



Enigma32 said:


> Then I will address my question to the board then. Who here that currently disagrees morally with prostitution will suddenly decide to try it if it becomes legal? Is it the illegality of the thing that holds you back or the morality?
> 
> I ask the same question of drug use. Is anyone here itching to try smoking the crack rock but hasn't done so because of a fear of the law? Or is it your own sense of morality holding you back?
> 
> Let us see what others say, shall we?


I wouldn't personally do it, but I'm sure many people would. There are lots of people who won't partake because it's illegal, and only refrain because of the consequences.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Agree. I struggled with this for a long time because I felt like legalizing was implicit approval. But honestly, are we ever going to get rid of prostitution? It’s been around as long as there have been people. By legalizing and regulating, we can at least make it safer. People who will do harmful things will do harmful things. We can’t stop that. But we can remove some of the incentive to traffic and force people.


This is the thing that we see over and over again. Legalize it and it eventually declines. Abortion is now lower than it was with RvW was decided. Marijuana use has not seen skyrocketing uses when it was legalized or decriminalized. And we already saw declines in problems in countries with legal regulated prostitution, with links to the data. It doesn't go away, but it simply doesn't get worse and usually gets better.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Numb26 said:


> There are some here that would support their daughters doing it


Very sad:-(


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

maquiscat said:


> This is the thing that we see over and over again. Legalize it and it eventually declines. Abortion is now lower than it was with RvW was decided. Marijuana use has not seen skyrocketing uses when it was legalized or decriminalized. And we already saw declines in problems in countries with legal regulated prostitution, with links to the data. It doesn't go away, but it simply doesn't get worse and usually gets better.


I am very skeptical about statistics from before and after legalization, because if it's not legal, people who care about law and order are going to lie about it or not do it because it's not worth going to jail. (I've done it, it's not worth going to jail. Pot, not prostitution. I never felt like I was pretty enough for that) It makes it a less attractive business for criminals because they aren't just competing with each other, they are competing with legal businesses. Is a middle aged woman with a family and career going to buy pot gummies from a nice store with a nice young man with lots of tattoos who explains the different varieties to her or from the scary man in the alley? I can answer that.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Marijuana use increased dramatically with the legalization of it. Just statistics.
> 
> I'm all for busting the pathetic men that buy women and taking it a little easier on the women. Double standard? Sure but I live that double standard every day.


You do realize that a good amount of that increase is due to medicinal uses of marijuana, yes?



> By the mid‐1990s, amid mounting scientific evidence pointing to marijuana’s potential medicinal benefits—including treating chronic pain, glaucoma, Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, epilepsy, and other medical conditions— https://www.cato.org/policy-analysi...ons-2021-update#marijuana-other-substance-use


Keep in mind, with regard to my previous post, that overall use has been a steady increase even before legalizing because of those medicinal uses. But we're not seeing a sudden leap upwards for the most part.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> Studies have been done on this and the use of MJ was increasing prior to legalization. I do read statistics so I've always got something ready when I post here  It's kinda a hobby of mine.
> 
> https://www.cato.org/policy-analysi...ons-2021-update#marijuana-other-substance-use
> 
> ...


ROFL! I made my post referencing this same article before I read your post. GMTA.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Let's be honest, before legalization anyone who wanted weed could get it. It wasn't stopping nobody or even slowing them down. Wasn't nobody sitting around talking about these damn laws won't let me have my chronic.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

There are some recreational drugs that I would consider if they were legal.

It's not the illegality of the situation that stops me, however. I'm not going to go down to the street corner and score some molly from a guy in a hoodie and trust that I'm getting what I paid for. If it were legal, even if regulated, then at least a professional of some sort (doctor, psychiatrist, whatever) could prescribe a dose and you could pick it up at the local pharmacy with some assurance. Or buy it over-the-counter from a dispensary that is subject to quality control.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Al_Bundy said:


> Let's be honest, before legalization anyone who wanted weed could get it. It wasn't stopping nobody or even slowing them down. Wasn't nobody sitting around talking about these damn laws won't let me have my chronic.


Except for all of the users rotting in jail for possession.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> You do realize that a good amount of that increase is due to medicinal uses of marijuana, yes?
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind, with regard to my previous post, that overall use has been a steady increase even before legalizing because of those medicinal uses. But we're not seeing a sudden leap upwards for the most part.


I'm very aware of just how many people are listed as medical use. Not accurate. I know dozens personally who didn't even get any exam by a medical professional of any kind but still are listed as medical use.

I've been in the medical profession, on and off for over 32 years and I actually approve of legitimate use.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> Yup. They call it the oldest profession for a reason. *Technically, it's also a victimless crime.* It's a crime of faith-based morality only, and one that reality has shown to be rather pointless. This is why when one side, Left or Right, gets too much power, you KNOW they will start to regulate and control people's lives based on their personal beliefs. That is why I generally side with the Libertarians when it comes to this sort of thing.


As long as it is recognized that within a victimless activity, victim causing activity can occur. A couple having sex, and one withdraws consent but the other doesn't stop, the once victimless activity now has a victim. Sex trafficking does create victims by forcing women to prostitute. It's matter of recognizing the difference between the activity and someone abusing it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Al_Bundy said:


> Let's be honest, before legalization anyone who wanted weed could get it. It wasn't stopping nobody or even slowing them down. Wasn't nobody sitting around talking about these damn laws won't let me have my chronic.


Let's be honest. I saw use increase dramatically by those that wouldn't consider doing something illegal before.

You're right about who you are talking about and I'm certainly right about who I am. I'm familiar with both groups.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Cletus said:


> I'm not going to go down to the street corner and score some molly from a guy in a hoodie and trust that I'm getting what I paid for.


This is a key factor. That time in college I smoked weed laced with PCP out of a crack pipe looking thing I had only intended to smoke weed.

BTW it was amazing but I wouldn’t do it again.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I'm very aware of just how many people are listed as medical use. Not accurate. I know dozens personally who didn't even get any exam by a medical professional of any kind but still are listed as medical use.
> 
> I've been in the medical profession, on and off for over 32 years and I actually approve of legitimate use.


My XW, who is a convicted felon, got her card so the regulations must be EXTREMELY haphazard


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> This is a key factor. That time in college I smoked weed laced with PCP out of a crack pipe looking thing I had only intended to smoke weed.


My wife had that exact same experience - at least, she thinks she got some sort of hallucinogenic. That's why my imbibing now would be a Serious Threat to Marital Harmony. It's just not a hill worth dying on even though I can't throw a rock on my drive home without hitting a dispensary.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Except for all of the users rotting in jail for possession.


I'm definitely for decriminalizing position within reason. There are definitely a lot of people in jail that I don't believe need to be while far too many are free that actually pose real risk.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I'm very aware of just how many people are listed as medical use. Not accurate. I know dozens personally who didn't even get any exam by a medical professional of any kind but still are listed as medical use.
> 
> I've been in the medical profession, on and off for over 32 years and I actually approve of legitimate use.


My wife is one. She uses it for cluster headaches, and the usual migraine treatments don't work. She hates using it. We have to fight her to get her to use it before it gets too bad. Her current doctor is fine with it, but her previous one was against it.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Enigma32 said:


> You could sell pot! Smoke more pot and leave the wine alone. A new diet trend! Personally, I have never wanted to try the stuff. My mind is a scary enough place without introducing mind altering substances. I know plenty of potheads though, and the law never seemed to deter them. Thanks for your input!


Just like I dont know if coffee drinkers are aware of how horrible their breath smells, I do often wonder how the weed people can walk around all day smelling like a skunks ass.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Cletus said:


> My wife had that exact same experience - at least, she thinks she got some sort of hallucinogenic. That's why my imbibing now would be a Serious Threat to Marital Harmony. It's just not a hill worth dying on.


Recreational is legal here and I have product in the house but haven’t used any in maybe a year. I noticed that using it regularly I could feel myself getting dumber so I stopped. Same reason I stopped in college.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Numb26 said:


> I say legalize it all and let nature take its course


We really could use a lot more Darwin Award winners.....just saying.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> My wife is one. She uses it for cluster headaches, and the usual migraine treatments don't work. She hates using it. We have to fight her to get her to use it before it gets too bad. Her current doctor is fine with it, but her previous one was against it.


Your wife is legit. The folks I'm talking about, who are numerous, aren't.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

maquiscat said:


> My wife is one. She uses it for cluster headaches, and the usual migraine treatments don't work. She hates using it. We have to fight her to get her to use it before it gets too bad. Her current doctor is fine with it, but her previous one was against it.


Does she smoke it? I've always wondered about medical marijuana and if doctors are recommending people smoke it. You can get pills, mints, gummies, drinks... so many non-lung-ickying ways to imbibe. What does her doctor do?

If she doesn't like the way it makes her feel, which some people do not, then I can see why she would hesitate. Poor thing, bad headaches are so awful, you can't do anything well when your head hurts.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> Recreational is legal here and I have product in the house but haven’t used any in maybe a year. I noticed that using it regularly I could feel myself getting dumber so I stopped. Same reason I stopped in college.


I watched guys I grew up with stagnating at about age 14 and many getting dumber and less effective as men. 😵‍💫


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> Hey, we agree on something. Not often for you and I. That's why it's fun to be a Libertarian though. Both sides end up hating me in the end.


Amen, brother.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Does she smoke it? I've always wondered about medical marijuana and if doctors are recommending people smoke it. You can get pills, mints, gummies, drinks... so many non-lung-ickying ways to imbibe. What does her doctor do?
> 
> If she doesn't like the way it makes her feel, which some people do not, then I can see why she would hesitate. Poor thing, bad headaches are so awful, you can't do anything well when your head hurts.


I hate the way it makes me feel which is why I don't smoke it very often


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Just for full disclosure, I smoked more than I can even remember before highschool.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I watched guys I grew up with stagnating at about age 14 and many getting dumber and less effective as men. 😵‍💫


I was using the Lagunitas drinks which are nice they taste kind of like a beer but 10 calories. Three of those and I was torched. After a couple weeks of that I felt noticeably dumber so I was like ok shut it down, bye bye!


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Just for full disclosure, I smoked more than I can even remember before highschool.


It was around when I was in high school but it was the 80's so there was something else that was more prevalent 🤫


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> I hate the way it makes me feel which is why I don't smoke it very often


I don't smoke it ever, I prefer edibles, but if its the right variety I LOVE the way it makes me feel. Relaxed, calm and sleepy. Plus stuff is funnier.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Cletus said:


> Seems an odd position to take for someone so adamant about female empowerment. "Regardless of how the woman doing it feels" completely removes her agency from the argument.
> 
> I listen to The Savage Love podcast. He has a fellow The Stranger contributor, *Mistress Matisse, who is a professional dominatrix who has made a great living doing what she does*. By her own account she seems to enjoy the work, and not only for the money it brings it.
> 
> Why do we get to invalidate her experience?


For the record, most professional dominatrixes don't actually engage in sex itself, keeping them just within the law of most places.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Your wife is legit. The folks I'm talking about, who are numerous, aren't.


How would you know? Are you assuming or are you limiting your observation to people you actually work with? If I didn't tell you my wife's condition, how would you have judged her as legit or not?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Does she smoke it? I've always wondered about medical marijuana and if doctors are recommending people smoke it. You can get pills, mints, gummies, drinks... so many non-lung-ickying ways to imbibe. What does her doctor do?
> 
> If she doesn't like the way it makes her feel, which some people do not, then I can see why she would hesitate. Poor thing, bad headaches are so awful, you can't do anything well when your head hurts.


She uses a vaporizer thing. Her insurance is very limited. Sadly this is the wife that's legally married to our husband, and while his company is pretty good overall, the insurance they have for family plan would seriously cut his paycheck down. The taste is also a factor. And where we live is not yet easy to get the edible stuff.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> How would you know? Are you assuming or are you limiting your observation to people you actually work with? If I didn't tell you my wife's condition, how would you have judged her as legit or not?


I'm trusting your posts so maybe you could extend the same consideration. I get around and I'm involved with many different kinds of groups of people. I'm friends with a large number of folks so when you are close enough for them to talk about their sex lives and children with you, you might just know about their MJ use as well.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

maquiscat said:


> She uses a vaporizer thing. Her insurance is very limited. Sadly this is the wife that's legally married to our husband, and while his company is pretty good overall, the insurance they have for family plan would seriously cut his paycheck down. The taste is also a factor. And where we live is not yet easy to get the edible stuff.


I've never tried the vape pen. I have some stuff that goes in one but don't have the pen. It can be pretty pricey, even where it's legal.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

Well, there are certainly a lot of side and metaconversations happening in this thread. (It think it was a brilliant one, btw.) Raises some interesting questions. Hat tip to @TXTrini for raising the topic(s).

Even intellectually speaking, I just can't reduce sex to the moral equivalent of a handshake, try as I might. Or a hug. At its core, it's more than a simple commodity or the release of bodily fluids. It even has the potential to create OTHER HUMAN BEINGS. Just as people aren't animals who can't help but be dictated by their instincts and urges, their sexual organs aren't just another product to utilize. I have seen enough destruction from poor sexual choices to know that sexuality is NOT another need just like sleep or food. Or shelter. People create unwanted children, destroy marriages and families, perpetuate a cycle of single parent homes, suffer untold pain, and gain permanent diseases due to either their own or someone else's (!) poor sexual choices. The worst is when these choices affect children and on down generations.

I suppose we could make prostitution legal across the board. A part of me wants to do it in order to free up law enforcement resources for other things and bring it out into the light (though there is evidence it will not be that simple at all). I also generally feel that as long as they aren't hurting anyone else, people should have the freedom to destroy themselves if they so choose...even if I hate it...because taking away people's free will is dangerous. I believe in human redemption, but it has to be that human's choice. I am generally "live and let live" as much as possible.

But I also know that we get what we tolerate, and the net result of an explosion of prostitution will wreck public health. At least economically and emotionally. It's a slippery slope. That dark underbelly of the sexual abuse of children is still very much alive and well. Child porn is disgusting, and there is a growing movement that wants to make it legal. And what is the magic age that it's NOT child porn? If the actors are 18 and 1/2 instead of 17 and 1/2, does that make it okay? A lot of European countries have the age of consent at 16. Some 15, I believe. At what point is it predatory?

The easy availability of hardcore porn is already affecting teens and Gen Z. Just ask anyone who works with kids. We're talking noticeable differences and effects from 20 years ago in the kind of stuff they're exposed to. How will taking away barriers to prostitution affect families and children?

Are women who work in Vegas (edit that to NV, not Vegas, according to other posts on this thread) or Amsterdam less exploited? I guess that depends on your definition of sex, products, and exploitation. I suspect not all do it as a last resort. Maybe some are drawn to the money, and maybe the power they feel at using their sexuality is heady at first(?) How many of those women are enabling men with sexual addictions, though? Sexual addictions that destroy marriages? And I can't help but wonder how many are emotionally healthy. Or will be as mature adults. They are most commonly girls or young women when they enter the industry, as they're going to make the most $$. How many do you think will later deeply regret the choices they made as they age and gain perspective? How many will grow up to be healthy mothers who raise healthy kids?

To circle back to why the OP started this thread, I do see some cultural differences in the way people view infidelity. There are varying remnants of the attitude that men have wives and then they have mistresses. Whether the "mistresses" are playboy (old school), pornography, "massage" therapists, prostitutes, or even flirty EA partners, they are there to give whatever the wife cannot. To me, that attitude reeks of sexism, and I don't consider myself a feminist. Is it better than divorce? Simply because the wife doesn't know or has resigned herself to it? Or is happy not to be bothered? Is it okay to do a thing or take advantage of someone simply because the person doesn't stand up for herself (or himself) and ask for better? (Yes, there is ammo for a fair trade argument in that question.)

I get that most people aren't going to agree with me. They would see my views as antiquated. That's fine. I don't care. I AM tired of being asked to affirm things I disagree with (why believe something if you don't think it's the truth?), though. I try to see people as people, not ideologies. I can leave respectful room for disagreement. The reality is that the majority of people in life aren't heroes or villains. Strangely, there are people I majorly disagree with but still like and people I agree with morally and join causes with...but don't much care for.

As long as all morality is relative to the debaters, I don't see how we'll come to an agreement on these issues. But the conversations are interesting, and I'm glad people are talking about this stuff.

If anyone's still reading...then, thanks. I suppose I just made up for my month long vacation from TAM. Ha.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Even if they made it legal, there would still be recruiting. There would also still be human sex trafficking that made any sense because just making it legal won't stop some bad pimp from keeping women captive to profit off of them, plus they like to take them to other countries.


I have always believed that the reason they haven't made much progress on prostitution is because so many municipalities refuse to prosecute the Johns instead of the prostitutes. If they would go after Johns hard, they could leave the prostitutes alone or get them to help. I think that's only fair it's so many of the prostitutes are being exploited by someone where we're groomed and recruited into it and certainly in many cases simply held captive.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Twodecades said:


> Well, there are certainly a lot of side and metaconversations happening in this thread. (It think it was a brilliant one, btw.) Raises some interesting questions. Hat tip to @TXTrini for raising the topic(s).
> 
> Even intellectually speaking, I just can't reduce sex to the moral equivalent of a handshake, try as I might. Or a hug. At its core, it's more than a simple commodity or the release of bodily fluids. It even has the potential to create OTHER HUMAN BEINGS. Just as people aren't animals who can't help but be dictated by their instincts and urges, their sexual organs aren't just another product to utilize. I have seen enough destruction from poor sexual choices to know that sexuality is NOT another need just like sleep or food. Or shelter. People create unwanted children, destroy marriages and families, perpetuate a cycle of single parent homes, suffer untold pain, and gain permanent diseases due to either their own or someone else's (!) poor sexual choices. The worst is when these choices affect children and on down generations.
> 
> ...


Ha! It was not brilliance, but thank you. I was simply very sad after reading the thread that inspired this one and had to say something. You've articulated exactly what I was feeling but couldn't express, welcome back!


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I have always believed that the reason they haven't made much progress on prostitution is because so many municipalities refuse to prosecute the Johns instead of the prostitutes


To be honest, if they were really serious about it and really thought that prostitution was wrong and immoral, they would go after the men. Bottom line, no one cares about those women. They consider them disposable. But they assume the johns have lives and families and shouldn't be held responsible for their actions because only women (wives and hookers) are being hurt by their actions. They don't make progress because there's no appetite to make progress on it.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> It was not brilliance, but thank you.


Yes, it was and you are. 

That post _was _sad. The bar was set SO low.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> To be honest, if they were really serious about it and really thought that prostitution was wrong and immoral, they would go after the men. Bottom line, no one cares about those women. They consider them disposable. But they assume the johns have lives and families and shouldn't be held responsible for their actions because only women (wives and hookers) are being hurt by their actions. They don't make progress because there's no appetite to make progress on it.


They do go after the men. They sometimes have prostitution stings with an undercover cop posing as a hooker. They arrest all the men and post their pictures online, in the paper, etc. They go after the men as much or more than they go after the women. When you arrest a hooker for prostitution, she will just be back on the streets doing the same thing after she gets out. I personally know of 2 guys that got busted by an undercover. The stigma that comes to a guy that hires a hooker is enough to make some guys regret their decisions, I bet. The old guys though, they probably don't care. 

I think the reason they don't enforce much of it is just because they lack the resources and it really is kinda a victimless crime. Sometimes a problem is just too big to tackle...like the amount of child porn being distributed by our teenagers when they send naked pics back and forth. Technically, they are all guilty of producing and distributing child porn, but how would we enforce it?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I just found this thread thanks to @heartsbeating's shout out!

If you don't write a book with this title are you ok if I do? Because there is no way this isn't a friggin' NY Times Best Seller title.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Deejo said:


> I just found this thread thanks to @heartsbeating's shout out!
> 
> If you don't write a book with this title are you ok if I do? Because there is no way this isn't a friggin' NY Times Best Seller title.


Knock yourself out! I doubt I will ever write a book, much less that one. Just give a sista a shoutout for the catch titled!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> I'm interested in hearing your thoughts, especially after seeing some bits of absolutely absurd, bordering on voyeuristic advice given to this unusual young woman.


I don't condone infidelity, especially for relationships where it is done covertly. However once someone is willing to forgive another and look past those issues, it is probably best to move forwards and not project further frustration. 

Imagine a therapist only willing to give positive and supportive advice for christian-cisgendered-heterosexual-monogamous couples, and meanwhile suggest that others with different ideas of how to be supportive likely have a brain tumor. 

Today in society a woman can get married, divorce, and remarry. By many historical standards that would be considered adultery, polygamy, and just wrong. Today that is accepted as completely normal. Many people tend to have multiple partners when they are young and dating until they discover what it is that they want in a partner. Historically a huge problem, today completely normal. 

So what happens when normal people get married without really learning who they are? Most often people try and cling to this idea of being this better person for their partner that ends up not really being who that person is able to be. Emotionally life gets messy until people just learn how to confidently be themselves. Affairs happen because people need a hidden way to express their true self because at some point it has to be expressed and for whatever reason some people can't stand the thought of others seeing who they really are (perhaps a failure when comparing to this person they are trying to be). So being married how does a couple enjoy sexual intimacy in which both are likely being this false person that is "better" in comparison to the person that each really is. Cue affairs, hookers and porn.

Sometimes people look past that and try to reconcile life and work on getting to really know the person they are married to. Odds are they both are willing to love and accept each other for who they really are if each can work on revealing that and allowing themselves to be known. Sometimes this true self might have an alternate sexuality that has been suppressed. Many people were raised to be ashamed of sexuality and struggle to discuss it openly and in a healthy context. It is also not uncommon for homosexual or bisexual people to end up in a heterosexual marriage out of pressure from society to live a "normal" life. Once a couple truly understands the honest dynamics of the person they are married to, then they can have an honest chance to work on that relationship or to move on if it was never meant to be. 

Now getting to the value of professional sex workers (or hookers as you call them), I am finding from reading that these people are sometimes honest people doing an honest day's work that others describe as immoral or criminal. But stop a moment and get past that to an honest person doing honest work (yes there are bad apples) and it is no different than a massage therapist helping someone relax and feel good about themselves. Working with lots of clients these people gain a lot of insight into how the general public struggles and what it takes to overcome that. 

One lengthy discussion I found rather fascinating that was being discussed online by professional sex workers was the topic of how to accommodate obese clients for which their condition made penetration nonviable. I was amazed at how a professional sex worker handles this situation, because it seems impossible but not only do they find a kind way to work around it, the advice they shared among themselves could probably help real married couples struggling to overcome obesity in the bedroom. For example obese men often unknowingly suffer from strong body odors underneath their belly flabs, so a hooker might choose to start out the session by helping to bathe a client and teach him about how this impacts a woman trying to be close with him (in a kind and professional way). She will then give him instructions on certain techniques that help make certain sexual acts possible, like asking the him help hold his stomach flab up and out of the way (in a kind and professional way). One interesting thing that these professional sex workers talked about was the fat that obese men often could not climax and that it was helpful if the sex worker brought herself to climax manually as that was what many of these men wanted (to be with a woman experiencing pleasure) and that they tended to tip more than any other clients. 

Stop a moment and think about that with regards to compassion alongside real life everyday struggles. Would most wives be able to deal with that in the bedroom in a loving way? Or would a wife not understand her husband's inability to climax and insist he is broken and need to go to the doctor? If a wife finds out her husband has visited a hooker and not bothered by it, imagine if we loved in a society to where this hooker could come over and talk openly to the husband about how he needs to shower better and do certain things to make it possible for his wife to make him happy. I have to imagine in a licensed therapy session that at no point in time will an obese husband be told directly that his flab of belly creates so much body odor that it makes oral sex impossible. And that his flab of belly needs to be held out of the way so that his wife can make better use of her hands to pleasure him. And that if he has trouble climaxing he probably just wants to feel his wife orgasm in his arms even if she has to do that herself for him. OK perhaps they might get into that type of discussion, but I imagine the therapist will send him to a general practitioner to discuss obesity. This general practitioner will likely not cover body odor as it relates to his wife struggling not to puke while attempting oral sex on him. He will remain oblivious.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

badsanta said:


> Affairs happen because people need a hidden way to express their true self because at some point it has to be expressed and for whatever reason some people can't stand the thought of others seeing who they really are (perhaps a failure when comparing to this person they are trying to be).


It's interesting that you say that, because often times affairs are really an illusion. They are a sort of new relationship energy in which the masks have not slipped; the waywards view their APs through a lens of infatuation, because they haven't had to deal with the realities of living together. I would say that affairs happen because people feel entitled to self-gratification at the expense of their spouse and children. If it were simply a matter of being their "true selves," affairs wouldn't be something that waywards tried to hide.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

maquiscat said:


> She uses a vaporizer thing. Her insurance is very limited. Sadly this is the wife that's legally married to our husband, and while his company is pretty good overall, the insurance they have for family plan would seriously cut his paycheck down. The taste is also a factor. And where we live is not yet easy to get the edible stuff.


@maquiscat ,

I realize this is a threadjack to reply directly to you, but since this entire THREAD is a big ol' threadjack, I didn't think anyone would mind. 

May I suggest that your wife try a tincture? My Dear Hubby who passed away used tinctures for his pain--angina, cluster headaches, and chronic fatigue. His lungs were messed up and he couldn't smoke or vape (he breathed in some fiberglass in a work accident and it tore up his lungs). Anyway, the gummies and edibles did not seem to be all that effective. Vaping seemed very effective but he couldn't do it without harm which kind of defeated the point. So we tried tincture. We'd squeeze a dropper or two (depending on the pain) into a cup of chamomile tea, and the mixture of soothing, warm tea and some cannabis soothed the pain without any recreational high. In his terms, it was enough to take the edge off and make it bearable. From my observation, it REALLY helped, and being a liquid form, it seemed to be absorbed and working more quickly than an edible.

ETA: In our state, medical MJ had been legalized for quite a while, and a bit before his death, recreational was legalized...so it wasn't a legal issue for us.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Twodecades said:


> It's interesting that you say that, because often times affairs are really an illusion. They are a sort of new relationship energy in which the masks have not slipped; the waywards views their APs through a lens of infatuation, because they haven't had to deal with the realities of living together. I would say that affairs happen because people feel entitled to self-gratification at the expense of their spouse and children. If it were simply a matter of being their "true selves," affairs wouldn't be something that waywards tried to hide.


Fascinating... 

This "lens of infatuation" is perhaps someone that can see and accept them as who they truly are even if those truths are not yet revealed or discovered. Therefor just a fantasy of acceptance from both. 

For professional sex workers, from what I am reading, they know very well what is going on emotionally and exactly how to make a client feel validated sexually. They describe it as men "just needing sex" but yet that pleasure can happen without certain emotional nuances being met.

Then with a long term partner there is the struggle of things being "too real!" Or is that a struggle of the idea of being someone better than you really are becoming too difficult to sustain as reality of imperfections and failure add up and compound. 

Slightly different topic, but at the moment I am enjoying binging on a survival TV show where people are left alone to compete for half a million dollars. There are two things that keep them pushing towards an certain failure:

The fear of being seen as a failure
A willingness to sacrifice themself for others to have a better life

Fascinating to see that emotional dynamic play out as people are alone and afraid to face the reality of who they are and the limitations of what they are capable of. Same thing plays out in marriage until they tap out (perhaps just briefly for an affair). Anyone in a monogamous relationship that has a covert affair is admitting to themselves that they are a FAILURE at their marriage. Facing that failure and accepting it is what makes the affair enjoyable. 

OK I think I am rambling.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

badsanta said:


> I don't condone infidelity, especially for relationships where it is done covertly. However once someone is willing to forgive another and look past those issues, it is probably best to move forwards and not project further frustration.
> 
> Imagine a therapist only willing to give positive and supportive advice for christian-cisgendered-heterosexual-monogamous couples, and meanwhile suggest that others with different ideas of how to be supportive likely have a brain tumor.
> 
> ...


I agree most people who commit infidelity are probably hiding who they are and afraid to share themselves with their spouses, but guess what, that's their problem and only they can fix that. The onus is not on someone else to accommodate them and possibly devalue or lose themselves in the process.

In another thread, the concept of givers and takers was discussed, as several people could not wrap their minds around how one set of people can love selflessly and put the couple above their interests, while another set of people loves transactionally and always put themselves first.

Maybe this is why I will never understand your point of view, we are on opposite ends of the WS/BS spectrum and have completely different views of love, conducting oneself in a relationship, and how we treat others.

Thank you for giving me an insight into the other side.

ETA: Folks like that should never promise to forsake all others and just screw around. But the selfish part of them wants it all and will give only pain in return when someone tries to love them as they are and becomes broken too.


----------



## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

badsanta said:


> Facing that failure and accepting it is what makes the affair enjoyable


And yet there are lots of people who never intend to leave their marriage when they cheat. What they intend is to never get caught. The thrill of sneaking around provides an adrenaline rush. They aren't facing their failure at all. They're avoiding it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Twodecades said:


> And yet there are lots of people who never intend to leave their marriage when they cheat. What they intend is to never get caught. The thrill of sneaking around provides an adrenaline rush. They aren't facing their failure at all. They're avoiding it.


I would think that the situation you describe allows someone to live a double life:

*I get to be a complete failure at marriage* and enjoy not feeling so much pressure of being perfect
*I get to be a complete success at marriage* if I can maintain the lie

I could be wrong but enjoy the debate and food for thought!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> In another thread, the concept of givers and takers was discussed, as several people could not wrap their minds around how one set of people can love selflessly and put the couple above their interests, while another set of people loves transactionally and always put themselves first.


In my opinion people in relationships can be selfless as long as the foundation of the relationship works and provides for everyone's essential wants and needs. However when a relationship faces an irreconcilable challenge, most people struggle and resort to give and take until a solution to an impossible problem us found. 

Many couples face irreconcilable issues. An example might be that a situation in which both get to accept a wonderful career opportunity is not possible (he gets a job in NY and she get a job in Japan) and remain married. So the couple remains married and one person gives up everything and eventually becomes resentful. Things get worse, intimacy fades, and things devolve into a world of give and take because one person has a huge deficit in living the life that was wanted. 

Now imagine another couple that both want to own a large farm together and build an off grid house. He builds while she tends to the animals. Both are happy in their careers as they both have dreams that compliment each other. Being selfless with one another is likely going to be natural because both have everything they want. 

I could be wrong...


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

badsanta said:


> I would think that the situation you describe allows someone to live a double life:
> 
> *I get to be a complete failure at marriage* and enjoy not feeling so much pressure of being perfect
> *I get to be a complete success at marriage* if I can maintain the lie
> ...


I don't understand you. Are you trying to say that a person is somehow better off for themselves or their spouse and family when they are having an affair? I assure you, the cheater who gets their cake and eats it too is almost NEVER a better spouse. Usually just an asshole who wants to take out their ****ty feelings of guilt and shame on the nearest whipping post, their family. At best they whistle dixie while diverting their time, money, attention and affection elsewhere. I don't see how any of this is beneficial to any party. The **** person is still a ****, and everyone else is suffering regardless, just in different degrees. We can also cover a turd in glitter and call it a disco ball but I'm not dancing under it.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> We can also cover a turd in glitter and call it a disco ball but I'm not dancing under it.


🤣😂🤣

This is also known as a cheater's fantasy. "Hey, everyone, I was unhappy so I found someone who really made me feel great about myself. Sure, I completely let down my spouse and family, but it's okay because ME ME ME ME MEEEEEEEEEEEE!" 😂


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

badsanta said:


> In my opinion people in relationships can be selfless as long as the foundation of the relationship works and provides for everyone's essential wants and needs. However when a relationship faces an irreconcilable challenge, most people struggle and resort to give and take until a solution to an impossible problem us found.
> 
> Many couples face irreconcilable issues. An example might be that a situation in which both get to accept a wonderful career opportunity is not possible (he gets a job in NY and she get a job in Japan) and remain married. So the couple remains married and one person gives up everything and eventually becomes resentful. Things get worse, intimacy fades, and things devolve into a world of give and take because one person has a huge deficit in living the life that was wanted.
> 
> ...


Life is all about making choices and dealing with consequences.

If two people aren't compatible, that does not entitle one person to cheat without consequence. If it's not working anymore and no one wants to compromise, there's the door. 

Why make things so complicated for one person to compromise everything they believe in and want for themselves so the other can live their every whim?


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> Life is all about making choices and dealing with consequences.
> 
> If two people aren't compatible, that does not entitle one person to cheat without consequence. If it's not working anymore and no one wants to compromise, there's the door.
> 
> Why make things so complicated for one person to compromise everything they believe in and want for themselves so the other can live their every whim?


Agreed. I just wish it was easier to walk out the door.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Agreed. I just wish it was easier to walk out the door.


It will never be. My ex cheated on me and I STILL struggled with second-guessing myself. But you can't have it all your way. It's all about what's important to you.

Your money or your freedom and integrity?


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> It will never be. My ex cheated on me and I STILL struggled with second-guessing myself. But you can't have it all your way. It's all about what's important to you.
> 
> Your money or your freedom and integrity?


I know. I just wish it was easier as having gone through a divorce once, I know its a long drawn out expensive process. I wish we would not have gotten married and then it would be far simpler.

Damn hindsight.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I know. I just wish it was easier as having gone through a divorce once, I know its a long drawn out expensive process. I wish we would not have gotten married and then it would be far simpler.
> 
> Damn hindsight.


Hey, at least your integrity is still intact.

You're not out banging hookers and gaslighting her to accept it. That's no small thing.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> Life is all about making choices and dealing with consequences.
> 
> If two people aren't compatible, that does not entitle one person to cheat without consequence. If it's not working anymore and no one wants to compromise, there's the door.
> 
> Why make things so complicated for one person to compromise everything they believe in and want for themselves so the other can live their every whim?


Some people don't believe in marriage and choose to just live a simple life without getting into complicated relationships in the first place. Believe it or not this type of person makes up a significant percentage of clientele for a hooker. These people still desire and enjoy sex but simply just pay for it to avoid life getting too complicated.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

badsanta said:


> Believe it or not this type of person makes up a significant percentage of clientele for a hooker. These people still desire and enjoy sex but simply just pay for it to avoid life getting too complicated.


Such giving, caring hookers...


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Agreed. I just wish it was easier to walk out the door.


I do too. It's awful expense to divorce. You certainly can't count on people agreeing and being reasonable about it either. Maybe it should be like the opposite of common-law marriage. Maybe once you can prove you haven't been living with your spouse for some amount of time, maybe three years, either should be able to file divorce papers and not even require the other's signature, and poof, it's just done. Of course, custody would have to be a separate matter as well as finances. But if someone had neither kids nor much in the way of possessions or could come to an agreement about the possessions between them, why not? That would account for a lot of young people's young marriages.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Some people don't believe in marriage and choose to just live a simple life without getting into complicated relationships in the first place. Believe it or not this type of person makes up a significant percentage of clientele for a hooker. These people still desire and enjoy sex but simply just pay for it to avoid life getting too complicated.


That's the best thing for everyone once they're not misleading anyone they're having side relationships with. The only thing I have issues with is when people want to hold one person to vows they're not fulfilling and expect that person to accommodate their lack of willingness to hold up their end.

Not everyone is cut out for the sacrifice marriage entails, and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is when someone tries to garner the best of everything and expects the other to deal with the shortfall.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> Not everyone is cut out for the sacrifice marriage entails, and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is when someone tries to garner the best of everything and expects the other to deal with the shortfall.


I have read in a few psychology books that covert affairs thrive on the success of keeping up with the lie. Once the lie is revealed the unfaithful can no longer enjoy sex with the affair partner nor the spouse. 

So why must someone marry, have an affair, and keep it hidden in order to get pleasure from it? Why does this all fall apart sexually once it is discovered (often with the unfaithful one desperately trying anything and everything to save the marriage)? 

You should enjoy reflecting on that one. Would it have anything to do with being truthfully seen as opposed to living a life where someone falsely believes in you?

Kind of like receiving a phone call and your phone preemptively telling you it is a scam. Will the scammer be able to get you to believe that the IRS is about to seize your home unless you immediately act by sending him lots of money? No. Perhaps with all the social media technology that there is, dating will be the same way in the future!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> Not everyone is cut out for the sacrifice marriage entails, and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is when someone tries to garner the best of everything and expects the other to deal with the shortfall.


Interestingly enough a good friend of my wife is in her 40's and decided to give up on dating. She is extremely attractive and has a very positive attitude regarding her confidently enjoying her sexuality. 

The reason she has just decided to give up and stop dating, well all her most recent relationships that started to get serious, she found out they were married. As this pattern kept repeating, she refuses to unknowingly be the other woman destroying a family anymore. She is done with men. 

So the lie is more often than not a rather elaborate lie. The wife is these situations was not the only woman being lied to.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

badsanta said:


> I have read in a few psychology books that covert affairs thrive on the success of keeping up with the lie. Once the lie is revealed the unfaithful can no longer enjoy sex with the affair partner nor the spouse.
> 
> So why must someone marry, have an affair, and keep it hidden in order to get pleasure from it? Why does this all fall apart sexually once it is discovered (often with the unfaithful one desperately trying anything and everything to save the marriage)?
> 
> ...


My experience on covert affairs comes from real life, not books, on several fronts.

What I observed was that the covert cheater felt better about themself by deceiving the other person. It was the only way to feel "superior" to mask their own self-hatred. I watched the eyes, while my ex was speaking, and I saw the dead, almost detached expression. Until I started laughing, boy, he couldn't stand it and was aggrieved that I "didn't take his head off". So fragile ego confirmed. 

What I find particularly interesting is no matter how many people they fool, they aren't fooling themselves, so the whole "to thine own self be true" can never happen for them. They know full well that living a lie means no one can ever really know them, and certainly never love them for themselves. In the end, the liar/cheat is cheating themselves most of all, b/c when the jig is up, everyone else can move on, but they're left with what they've done and who they are. So common sense and intelligence may be lacking too.




badsanta said:


> Interestingly enough a good friend of my wife is in her 40's and decided to give up on dating. She is extremely attractive and has a very positive attitude regarding her confidently enjoying her sexuality.
> 
> The reason she has just decided to give up and stop dating, well all her most recent relationships that started to get serious, she found out they were married. As this pattern kept repeating, she refuses to unknowingly be the other woman destroying a family anymore. She is done with men.
> 
> So the lie is more often than not a rather elaborate lie. The wife is these situations was not the only woman being lied to.


My mom gave up on dating for the same reason, so I understand your friend's feelings. Maybe she can do what other ladies advised me to do when I started dating; background checks on potential dates.

You can look up public records or straight up ask to see a divorce decree if someone claims to be divorced. An honest man won't be offended, but a butthurt one would reveal himself. Of course, she has to be willing to show equal transparency.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> My experience on covert affairs comes from real life, not books, on several fronts.


True, but your sample size is one.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Cletus said:


> True, but your sample size is one.


Nope, unfortunately, I've had a close-up view of many instances, starting with my father.

I come from a culture where men are expected to cheat and many women put up with it or cheat too.

ETA: I had a very negative view of men for a very long time until I started meeting people who did not live that way, or lay down in the mud alongside other cheaters and cheat too.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I think abortion probably goes hand in hand with prostitution… if a young lady isn’t wrecked morally/spiritually by the act of selling her body she will be after killing an unborn baby.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> Not everyone is cut out for the sacrifice marriage entails, and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is when someone tries to garner the best of everything and expects the other to deal with the shortfall.


My father used to know a couple who got married and had kids. They were great before the marriage, but once married they fell apart. After they divorced, they ended up back together again, and working well. They refused to get married again. They lived together successfully and the children turned out well.

Now personally, I think that they were actually married, but for some reason being in a legally recognized marriages did something that stressed them out to where it didn't work for them.


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## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> I think abortion probably goes hand in hand with prostitution… if a young lady isn’t wrecked morally/spiritually by the act of selling her body she will be after killing an unborn baby.


It's statements such as this that have put me off Catholicism since I was old enough to read. I mean, it's inviting the sword.

On topic...I'm glad that I don't hang with any person who uses prostitutes. You'll say I couldn't possibly know but you would be wrong.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> My father used to know a couple who got married and had kids. They were great before the marriage, but once married they fell apart. After they divorced, they ended up back together again, and working well. They refused to get married again. They lived together successfully and the children turned out well.
> 
> Now personally, I think that they were actually married, but for some reason being in a legally recognized marriages did something that stressed them out to where it didn't work for them.


Wow, that's nuts! Do you know what about being married didn't work for them? That's such an interesting situation!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TXTrini said:


> My experience on covert affairs comes from real life, not books, on several fronts.
> 
> What I observed was that the covert cheater felt better about themself by deceiving the other person. It was the only way to feel "superior" to mask their own self-hatred. I watched the eyes, while my ex was speaking, and I saw the dead, almost detached expression. Until I started laughing, boy, he couldn't stand it and was aggrieved that I "didn't take his head off". So fragile ego confirmed.
> 
> ...


Or even do some research on social media.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Or even do some research on social media.


I actually don't spend much time on social media, unless I'm checking on a friend who doesn't communicate any other way. 

What research can you do anyways? Do people really broadcast their down'n'dirty stuff on there??


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

harperlee said:


> It's statements such as this that have put me off Catholicism since I was old enough to read. I mean, it's inviting the sword.
> 
> On topic...I'm glad that I don't hang with any person who uses prostitutes. You'll say I couldn't possibly know but you would be wrong.


It’s “inviting the sword” to presume that prostitutes have abortions?

What is this- some kind of subtle threat?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TXTrini said:


> I actually don't spend much time on social media, unless I'm checking on a friend who doesn't communicate any other way.
> 
> What research can you do anyways? Do people really broadcast their down'n'dirty stuff on there??


They should indicate if he married/ has children.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> Maybe she can do what other ladies advised me to do when I started dating; background checks on potential dates.


I would actually be happy if a woman did this to me, it means she’s not dumb and that she’s actually interested in you.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> I think abortion probably goes hand in hand with prostitution… if a young lady isn’t wrecked morally/spiritually by the act of selling her body she will be after killing an unborn baby.


I do want to point out, reminding all I'm not for drop of the hat abortions, a young lady will be greatly affected and emotionally affected if she had one.

I do want to make it crystal clear she isn't forever condemned to have crippled herself emotionally or spiritually for life and is not required to consider herself "less than" others.

That absolutely doesn't preclude her from becoming born again as a child of Christ or condemn her to a life of self loathing. By no means.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Oh, please, let's not twist this thread into an abortion thread. It's a no-win situation since everyone is entitled to their beliefs and there's another thread on it.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Oh, please, let's not twist this thread into an abortion thread. It's a no-win situation since everyone is entitled to their beliefs and there's another thread on it.


I have been purposely keeping my mouth shut on this one.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Oh, please, let's not twist this thread into an abortion thread. It's a no-win situation since everyone is entitled to their beliefs and there's another thread on it.


one last word. Anytime people are considering the morality of “no strings sex” we need to at least point out that the (hidden) costs are the lives of the unborn, and the poor women that choose and undergo this tragedy. God bless these poor women and children!
I’ll leave now… sorry!


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

CatholicDad said:


> one last word. Anytime people are considering the morality of “no strings sex” we need to at least point out that the (hidden) costs are the lives of the unborn, and the poor women that choose and undergo this tragedy. God bless these poor women and children!
> I’ll leave now… sorry!


We live in an era where birth control is widely available, and even the current Pope does not condemn it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> We live in an era where birth control is widely available, and even the current Pope does not condemn it.


This is interesting to consider because generally speaking in a marriage, birth control is a well discussed topic and both partners are fully versed on what choice is made and the implications/limitations of that choice. 

So now take a professional sex worker. Hypothetically imagine a women with no historical involvement with male partners and a general preference for female partners. This woman discovers the business of being a nude cam model and that primarily men are her clientele. Things evolve into one-on-one sessions via cam and at some point she decides to meet up with some fans. 

OK, at what point does the business decision to go to the OBGYN and start taking hormonal birth control happen just because one of these fans might end up going all the way? I would actually have to think that a bisexual woman with a preference for women unexpectedly finding herself in the career as a sex worker would likely think that a barrier method be the best choice for birth control when and if needed. 

A woman likely has to be in a serious, trusting and committed relationship before seriously considering to get an IUD or go on a hormonal birth control regimen. Otherwise it seems like a decision that subjects her body to a lot just for nothing. 

Also you have situations like this from Mistress T and I am not going to directly link the blog here as it is NSFW and contains porn images:



> Even the hyper-observant wouldn’t be able to tell how many men I’ve had unprotected intercourse with in my vids since their faces have so often been unidentifiable. I’ll tell you: three. Does that surprise you? How many men do you think I’ve had intercourse with in my vids using a condom? Less than twenty. In a decade & thousands of scenes, I’ve had sex with less than two dozen different male performers & only bareback with three.
> 
> Of those three, two of them were my long-term partners/boyfriends, the other one was a close friend & long term partner of a close friend. I trusted them completely with my sexual health. We all knew each others sexual activity & were tested regularly.
> 
> My choice to use condoms was about safer sex until more recently, when it also became about birth control. At 40 my doctor wanted me to consider going off the birth control pill that I’d been on since my teens. Apparently there are higher side-effect risks for older women. I wasn’t keen on getting surgery (tubes tied) or the invasive process of getting an IUD & potentially bleeding for months…sexy talk, eh?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

badsanta said:


> This is interesting to consider because generally speaking in a marriage, birth control is a well discussed topic and both partners are fully versed on what choice is made and the implications/limitations of that choice.
> 
> So now take a professional sex worker. Hypothetically imagine a women with no historical involvement with male partners and a general preference for female partners. This woman discovers the business of being a nude cam model and that primarily men are her clientele. Things evolve into one-on-one sessions via cam and at some point she decides to meet up with some fans.
> 
> ...


From my generation the people who jumped on birth control were the young single people like myself. 

Best I can observe, the people who don't go on birth control (other than people who don't care if they get pregnant) are broke and or disorganized. Most prostitutes are on drugs and many are letting a bad person run their life and so they are the epitome of disorganized. They probably don't get birth control unless the pimp insists on it.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Topics for another thread!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TXTrini said:


> Hey, at least your integrity is still intact.
> 
> You're not out banging hookers and gaslighting her to accept it. That's no small thing.


Yeah @FloridaGuy1 , at least you aren't a hookerbanger!!!😉😁


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> Yeah @FloridaGuy1 , at least you aren't a hookerbanger!!!😉😁


There seems to be a lot of prossybangers about; or those “reading” about the social service benefits of them.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> I actually don't spend much time on social media, unless I'm checking on a friend who doesn't communicate any other way.
> 
> What research can you do anyways? Do people really broadcast their down'n'dirty stuff on there??


People won't air all their dirty laundry online but they say enough that you can get some idea of it. I can also figure out a lot about a person based on the sort of things they like to share online. When I was dating, a quick perusal of a girl's Facebook page was usually enough to decide to pass on her.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> There seems to be a lot of prossybangers about; or those “reading” about the social service benefits of them.


I'll never really understand those guys and I don't really want to.

We are staying in a popular hotel chain in California at the moment.

I went out to use the grill on Sunday and there were a bunch of other guys out there who are traveling for work as well.

None of them were Don Juans but they were all getting attention from some women that showed up who were traveling nurses.

There doesn't seem to be a shortage of women who are interested in a little play time. A guy would have to be a troll not to be able to have sex these days.

Hell, even a troll probably has a chance.😉

Buying women when they are so plentiful in the wild doesn't make sense on any level to me.

No, please no one try and explain it to me. I find studying mold far more interesting.🙂


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> People won't air all their dirty laundry online but they say enough that you can get some idea of it. I can also figure out a lot about a person based on the sort of things they like to share online. When I was dating, a quick perusal of a girl's Facebook page was usually enough to decide to pass on her.


Hmm, unless they're private hermits like me. with almost nothing filled out. After my divorce, I did get a bunch of friend requests from men all over the frigging place, which was weird and annoying but I simply changed my settings to avoid that.

Some men don't have social media or use fake names (I've seen women do that too), so it's harder to track them that way. My ex, for example, deleted his FB account after his first EA and as far as I know, didn't make another. I suppose you could look on LinkedIn but I don't think you can find out someone's marital status unless they're an oversharer.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I'll never really understand those guys and I don't really want to.
> 
> We are staying in a popular hotel chain in California at the moment.
> 
> ...


I unfortunately have known a few prossybangers, (Can I trademark this term for you @TXTrini?) their secret activity tends to seep out, especially when they are married. I definitely see a theme with the type of behaviors and attitudes of said males. Maybe we can call them PB’s for short.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> I unfortunately have known a few prossybangers, (Can I trademark this term for you @TXTrini?) their secret activity tends to seep out, especially when they are married. I definitely see a theme with the type of behaviors and attitudes of said males. Maybe we can call them PB’s for short.


PB too much Jelly?


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> Hmm, unless they're private hermits like me. with almost nothing filled out. After my divorce, I did get a bunch of friend requests from men all over the frigging place, which was weird and annoying but I simply changed my settings to avoid that.
> 
> Some men don't have social media or use fake names (I've seen women do that too), so it's harder to track them that way. My ex, for example, deleted his FB account after his first EA and as far as I know, didn't make another. I suppose you could look on LinkedIn but I don't think you can find out someone's marital status unless they're an oversharer.


I maybe, sort of, have had a reason to do some investigating on a certain female a year and a half ago. I just so happened to type her name and the city into a Google search and woooo the things I found. Current and past home addresses and cities, current and previous jobs, husbands name, husbands job, both of their phone numbers and email addresses. Then I might have gone onto the public court records and looked up all of the tickets and lawsuits and court activities they both have had. This is how I found out he got divorced before… right around the time he and she got married. Suspect. What else might I have found? Well I looked up some public records on the county recorders office and found all the deeds to houses they’ve owned, and own now. I even found out she had a lien for an emergency room visit. And this was in addition to all the social media platforms. Lots of info. 

All this info freely and very legally listed for anyone to see on the web.

Try doing a Google search on yourself and in one of those white pages sites. It’s interesting what you can find.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

At this point in my life (newly single) I'm considering the lifestyle of becoming a prossy-banger. I don't look down on such women and it's legal where I live, remember my ex-wife was one before she met me years ago and she turned out a fantastic woman who sadly I was never in love with.

Now some of you may know in the past even post-divorce I never had trouble finding dates, and I even found myself a stunner much younger than me and had a 4 year relationship. But now since the last relationship... there is now a complete lack of desire for any interaction with the opposite sex either than to scratch an itch, and no longer caring about the long term consequences relationship-wise as I no longer desire a coupled future. The dates are there, had matches daily when on dating sites but I've ghosted like 95% of them. I kept one as flirty-chat-friend but won't even meet her despite her place being 15-20 minutes away - as I like her place in my life as is and vice versa since she also broke up last year during lockdown.

In the past when single I found FWBs, taking around a month to establish before it can be consistent. Now I can't even be bothered with that and potential dramas as emotions may develop. I normally hate ONSs but I don't really see any other option, but since ONSs is now on the table, why still pay? We all pay for sex, either in time or money. So same reason as both except sex is guaranteed for the same price as dinner without ANY dramas. Wham bam thank you ma'am, and go about your business.

Since my sex drive has gone down to abysmal levels though I don't have need of it at the moment, but it's becoming a less foggy option these days. I may start with rather specific desires, like for-filling a fantasy that I never could if married, who knows. So prostitution has its place.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> At this point in my life (newly single) I'm considering the lifestyle of becoming a prossy-banger. I don't look down on such women and it's legal where I live, remember my ex-wife was one before she met me years ago and she turned out a fantastic woman who sadly I was never in love with.
> 
> Now some of you may know in the past even post-divorce I never had trouble finding dates, and I even found myself a stunner much younger than me and had a 4 year relationship. But now since the last relationship... there is now a complete lack of desire for any interaction with the opposite sex either than to scratch an itch, and no longer caring about the long term consequences relationship-wise as I no longer desire a coupled future. The dates are there, had matches daily when on dating sites but I've ghosted like 95% of them. I kept one as flirty-chat-friend but won't even meet her despite her place being 15-20 minutes away - as I like her place in my life as is and vice versa since she also broke up last year during lockdown.
> 
> ...


Maybe so, but you're not married, so that won't affect anyone but you.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> We live in an era where birth control is widely available, and even the current Pope does not condemn it.


Of course, but birth control is never 100%- especially when used by ignorant, drunk, or drugged up people. Over 61M abortions (1973-2018) even with birth control available everywhere. Ok, I’ll go now.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> I'm interested in hearing your thoughts


After some further reflection on this thread, I think the answer you may be struggling to understand may relate to the "pair bonding" instinct. From what I have read, not everyone is the same in this regard. Some people are not monogamous and/or the do not give a high level of importance to a mate being monogamous. Some people go so far as to encourage their partners to cheat or play around as this evokes a need to repair/reclaim the relationship (which some experience euphoria as part of that). 

Here are some of the elements that create euphoria for some women that have an unfaithful husband:

She fears she can not please her husband sexually, so let someone else do that as long as his financial/emotional resources remain available to the wife. She will still have a strong sexual desire for him and try to mate guard him if these extramarital affairs get too involved and this creates euphoria in the form of hysterical bonding.
Some folks are bisexually suppressed and indirectly enjoy interacting with the same sex via proxy. As in a woman that will not sleep with other women, but she will enjoy living vicariously through her husband as a way to express/enjoy this part of her sexual orientation. 
Some folks can not appreciate the mate they have unless someone else wants him. So some women like to use other women to appraise the sexual value of their man in order to increase her appreciation for him.
Some folks enjoy erotic humiliation. This likely stems from being picked on early in life and being repeatedly told that she will never be able to attract a mate. She accepts this as a reality and then upon attracting a mate feels inept to keep him. So when her mate cheats this validates that all along her friends and family were telling the truth. When the mate returns to her she gets euphoria from her mate relieving this fear that she will always be alone. So she will do anything to keep him, even if the sexual part of the relationship is defunct.

I could go on and on, but there are actual fetishes for a woman that remains faithful or even celibate and receives pleasure in knowing that her husband is involved with other women. Some couples specifically play in this manner.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Buying women when they are so plentiful in the wild doesn't make sense on any level to me.
> 
> No, please no one try and explain it to me. I find studying mold far more interesting.🙂


Not so much as for your benefit, as others who might want to know. 

One of the reasons a guy might prefer to buy is he knows it's a one and done, even if he has a certain hooker he frequents. While he could get it for free, how many of them might want to turn it into a relationship, where he doesn't want one. With a prostitute, you have the assurance that she's not looking long term with you. And as noted that is just one reason and/factor. There are others.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TXTrini said:


> Maybe so, but you're not married, so that won't affect anyone but you.


It “shouldn’t” effect these sexless couples where the spouse has rejected them for years either. 

If someone does not want to have sex with their partner and rejects them completely on an ongoing basis, then why should they care if if their spouse outsources that activity to a professional provider.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I'll never really understand those guys and I don't really want to.
> 
> We are staying in a popular hotel chain in California at the moment.
> 
> ...


Like @maquiscat, this is not for you but for anyone else who cares to read on - 

It’s about power and control of the situation. Women are the gatekeepers of sex; men are the gatekeepers of relationships. It’s about who has control of the wheel.

Yes, maybe your business could have hooked up in the wild and maybe they did. But hooking up in the wild comes down to who is willing at the time and place and what each agendas are. 

In other words, your business men would have been hooking up on the nurse’s terms and would have only been able to hook up with the one(s) that was wanting to hook up with him. 

With a hooker you circumvent all of that. You pick which one(s) you want and negotiate a price and then it’s all on your terms. 

You don’t have to be concerned with her agenda as long as it is within your budget. Her agenda is money and you know that up front and it’s it’s a fair price or you walk away. 

When the service has been provided, you each go on about your business. 

One doesn’t really pay for sex exactly. What you’re paying for is not having to dance and flirt and meet her criteria and paying to walk away when it’s done. 

You’re not paying for sex. You paying to not have to do any of the other stuff you’d normally have to do to get it and to not have to cuddle and make pillow talk or call the next day when it’s done. 

You’re paying to not have to mess with any of the other stuff that typically accompanies sex. 

For some people it’s actually cheaper. That’s why there are all these celebrities and pro athletes and big businessmen that are getting caught with their hand in the cookie jar.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

badsanta said:


> After some further reflection on this thread, I think the answer you may be struggling to understand may relate to the "pair bonding" instinct. From what I have read, not everyone is the same in this regard. Some people are not monogamous and/or the do not give a high level of importance to a mate being monogamous. Some people go so far as to encourage their partners to cheat or play around as this evokes a need to repair/reclaim the relationship (which some experience euphoria as part of that).
> 
> Here are some of the elements that create euphoria for some women that have an unfaithful husband:
> 
> ...


I know some people aren't monogamous, and quite frankly if they are transparent with each other and happy as they are, bully for them.

My problem is the people who know they aren't cut out for monogamy want the benefits of it without paying the price. Then they manipulate their spouses into accepting degenerate behavior and thinking they are the problem. It also doesn't help when people try to explain away sh1tty behavior with all kinds of psycho babble. 

For that particular thread, I bet if the wife was screwing around in response to his behavior, the husband would not be pleased at all.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Are you all reading a different thread?

A. Wife does not starve her H of sex. He just likes prostitutes. 

B. She is not ok with him sleeping with prostitutes, she just thinks it’s not as bad as if he caught the feels for someone rather than had transactional sex. 

C. If someone in the marriage is breaking their vows and has no desire to remedy the situation, there are far more options available than having sex outside the marriage (with prostitutes or otherwise) or keeping secrets and lying. If your spouse refuses to have sex with you, they are breaking their vows. Do what you need to do in an honest and forthright manner. How hard is that? When you start finding justifications for cheating, you have become a person with cheating mindset. And no, if you believe vow a is being broken, the best thing to do is not then break vow b,c, and d. You give them a chance to fix it or you leave. 

This thread isn’t about hidden kinks of women who want their husband to cheat on them to get excited, or have no issues with their H banging prostitutes, quite the opposite. This is also not about single men who use prostitutes for whatever reason they deem fit. I feel like I’m reading “How to be sleazy and convince myself I have a great reason for it.”


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> It “shouldn’t” effect these sexless couples where the spouse has rejected them for years either.
> 
> If someone does not want to have sex with their partner and rejects them completely on an ongoing basis, then why should they care if if their spouse outsources that activity to a professional provider.


Why not? They're married.

As someone who stayed for years in a sexless marriage, it never occurred to me I had a right to cheat, so I can put my money where my mouth is saying that. Vows mean something. You don't want to be married, go forth and **** around, no one's holding a gun to anyone's head to remain married. 

That said, my exH most definitely didn't want me with another man. He liked knowing I'd never cheat but was fine doing it. Btw, according to him, several men wanted to swing, but he didn't like their women, I should have got a clue from that that he was not marriage material to consider it in the first place.

Anyway, I still will never understand people who claim non-monogamy who bother to marry and screw around on the sly.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> Are you all reading a different thread?
> 
> A. Wife does not starve her H of sex. He just likes prostitutes.
> 
> ...


Actually, I find those posts illuminating. It's a window into the warped mindset of men who could marry and bang hookers on the side. 

Why else bring full-on mental gymnastics to justify abhorrent behavior?


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> Actually, I find those posts illuminating. It's a window into the warped mindset of men who could marry and bang hookers on the side.
> 
> Why else bring full-on mental gymnastics to justify abhorrent behavior?


You owe me a bar of soap for this thread friend. Lavender… with extra lye please. 🙂


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

QuietRiot said:


> This thread isn’t about hidden kinks of women who want their husband to cheat on them to get excited, or have no issues with their H banging prostitutes, quite the opposite. This is also not about single men who use prostitutes for whatever reason they deem fit. I feel like I’m reading “How to be sleazy and convince myself I have a great reason for it.”


Yeah well someone had to stand up for all the 'prossy bangers' 

/end threadjack


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> My problem is the people who know they aren't cut out for monogamy want the benefits of it without paying the price. Then they manipulate their spouses into accepting degenerate behavior and thinking they are the problem. It also doesn't help when people try to explain away sh1tty behavior with all kinds of psycho babble.


^^^THIS.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

The thing is, if this thread is about cheaters in general, why bring up prostitution?

Cheaters are just that, cheaters. You can spray a turd with whatever color you like but it's still a turd. Why blame other stuff for the smell?
And knowing this thread was a response to another thread, you can't really help those who can't help themselves - same as many domestic abuse victims.

There simply is no excuse for cheating, and NO room to blame anyone or anything else.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TXTrini said:


> Why not? They're married.
> 
> As someone who stayed for years in a sexless marriage, it never occurred to me I had a right to cheat, so I can put my money where my mouth is saying that. Vows mean something. You don't want to be married, go forth and **** around, no one's holding a gun to anyone's head to remain married.
> 
> ...


My point is if someone does not want to have sex with their spouse and has essentially pulled the plug on their sexlife and refuses to address it at all, then as far as I’m concerned they’ve waived their right to their partners sexuality and waved any claims to their exclusivity. 

If they have a problem with their partner getting it elsewhere, that’s their problem. I don’t care that they care. 

If you choose to remain sexually celibate to someone that rejected you, that is your choice.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> The thing is, if this thread is about cheaters in general, why bring up prostitution?
> 
> Cheaters are just that, cheaters. You can spray a turd with whatever color you like but it's still a turd. Why blame other stuff for the smell?
> *And knowing this thread was a response to another thread, *you can't really help those who can't help themselves - same as many domestic abuse victims.
> ...


^^ Bolded is why prostitution was brought up. 

It hit a nerve for me, b/c I understood a little of how it felt to be in her position. 

I didn't want to divorce and thought I had to bend backwards to "save my marriage". It took time and exposure to understand some things are never ok, it's ok to leave over sexlessness. 




oldshirt said:


> My point is if someone does not want to have sex with their spouse and has essentially pulled the plug on their sexlife and refuses to address it at all, then as far as I’m concerned they’ve waived their right to their partners sexuality and waved any claims to their exclusivity.
> 
> If they have a problem with their partner getting it elsewhere, that’s their problem. I don’t care that they care.
> 
> *If you choose to remain sexually celibate to someone that rejected you, that is your choice.*


Yes, it was my choice. I took my vows seriously and have zero regrets or shame about it. However, if I used sexlessness as an excuse to cheat or hire escorts, then I'd definitely be wrong and tainted. 

I have a feeling that other poster is in for a rude awakening, and it might take years to get there.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

RandomDude said:


> The thing is, if this thread is about cheaters in general, why bring up prostitution?
> 
> Cheaters are just that, cheaters. You can spray a turd with whatever color you like but it's still a turd. Why blame other stuff for the smell?
> And knowing this thread was a response to another thread, you can't really help those who can't help themselves - same as many domestic abuse victims.
> ...


It was more in response (confusion) to the advice given on that thread I believe… the “bring the hooker into the bedroom” or “dress up like a comic fantasy character” as though his interest in hookers was her inadequate bedroom skills… and since it had to do with her husband banging prossy’s to begin with (behind her back) that transitioned over as part of the topic…


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TXTrini said:


> I have a feeling that other poster is in for a rude awakening, and it might take years to get there.


I have not read all 28 pages of this thread. 

What is the other thread that people are referring to?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I have not read all 28 pages of this thread.
> 
> What is the other thread that people are referring to?


I think is is this one.

@QuietRiot did a pretty good job summarizing some of the responses. 










Updates on "Young Sexless Married Couple. What do I...


.




www.talkaboutmarriage.com


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> Actually, I find those posts illuminating. It's a window into the warped mindset of men who could marry and bang hookers on the side.
> 
> Why else bring full-on mental gymnastics to justify abhorrent behavior?


Perhaps this thread is really about you feeling anger towards an unfaithful partner as you likely struggle with still having feelings for that person. You either need to:

A) Validate ending the relationship
B) Reconcile why you still have feelings
C) Need emotional revenge on others that try to justify cheating as OK. (As in try and seriously tell me I have a brain tumor)

I do NOT see cheating as OK, I am only saying that there are many folks that have no problem with it. EVEN when it is done covertly and discovered. I am NOT one of those people, but I am open minded enough to understand why some folks are so forgiving.

In my opinion, you need to forgive you past partner and reclaim him or forgive him and move on with you life as opposed to projecting your anger and frustration at others trying to reconcile. So many people here look at a marriage with problems and say* **** IT AND LEAVE THE BASТARD*. ...and that is being said to kind people with kind hearts that are trying to work through problems and love one another.

It absolutely ***** disgusts me and makes me just want to stop participating in this forum.

Please for the love of god report this post and ask a moderator to ban me!


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

badsanta said:


> Perhaps this thread is really about you feeling anger towards an unfaithful partner as you likely struggle with still having feelings for that person. You either need to:
> 
> A) Validate ending the relationship
> B) Reconcile why you still have feelings
> ...


This thread was brought on by a post from a wife in a sexless marriage. She wants to have sex with her husband, badly. She found out he isn't interested because he is jacking off to porn 2-3 time a day and hiring escort. The advice given by some was basically for her to pretend to be a prostitute or whatever Cosplay thing he was into. That is no better advice than and unqualified leave the bastard.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> I know some people aren't monogamous, and quite frankly if they are transparent with each other and happy as they are, bully for them.
> 
> My problem is the people who know they aren't cut out for monogamy want the benefits of it without paying the price. Then they manipulate their spouses into accepting degenerate behavior and thinking they are the problem. It also doesn't help when people try to explain away sh1tty behavior with all kinds of psycho babble.
> 
> For that particular thread, I bet if the wife was screwing around in response to his behavior, the husband would not be pleased at all.


Pretty much poly people hate this as well. If you want more than one, be honest about it. We don't like cheating, and we are not immune to it either. It still happens. Which really is worse for us, if you think about it. When you can be open about it and no one blinks, yet you still feel that you have to hide it? Going behind backs is just wrong, whether it's monogamy or polyamory.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

badsanta said:


> Perhaps this thread is really about you feeling anger towards an unfaithful partner as you likely struggle with still having feelings for that person. You either need to:
> 
> A) Validate ending the relationship
> B) Reconcile why you still have feelings
> ...


How do you have cuss words? No fair.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Perhaps this thread is really about you feeling anger towards an unfaithful partner as you likely struggle with still having feelings for that person. You either need to:
> 
> A) Validate ending the relationship
> B) Reconcile why you still have feelings
> ...


Thank you for your concern about my welfare.

Nice of you to trot out the "You're triggered" argument because I criticized your ridiculous stance of advising someone to contort themselves to forgive/reclaim a partner who has sh1t all over them and obviously doesn't respect them in the first place to met out said treatment.

I'm sorry you are so butthurt b/c you don't see the inconsistency in what you're saying. Sometimes I think people want to be so open-minded they lose all common sense and boundaries of what is right/wrong.

Anyway, feel free to quit participating in this thread if you are so ***** disgusted and run along. I don't need mommy or daddy to spank you.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> Pretty much poly people hate this as well. If you want more than one, be honest about it. We don't like cheating, and we are not immune to it either. It still happens. Which really is worse for us, if you think about it. When you can be open about it and no one blinks, yet you still feel that you have to hide it? Going behind backs is just wrong, whether it's monogamy or polyamory.


I can definitely see that! Isn't the whole point of poly honesty and transparency and negotiated agreements?

Anytime someone feels the need to hide something, they know very well what they're doing is wrong, end of story.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> This thread was brought on by a post from a wife in a sexless marriage. She wants to have sex with her husband, badly. She found out he isn't interested because he is jacking off to porn 2-3 time a day and hiring escort. The advice given by some was basically for her to pretend to be a prostitute or whatever Cosplay thing he was into. That is no better advice than and unqualified leave the bastard.


The dude is so caught up in his fantasies that he can't keep details straight. That's why I said those posts were revealing of the mentality behind the people posting them.


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