# How About Them Apples?



## Deejo

For those of us that have already lived this ... the information comes as no surprise and far too little, far too late.

Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity

My gripe about this stuff is that it's all post-mortem. Nobody feels much like reflecting on "What the hell happened?" until the bomb has already gone off and the field is strewn with body parts.

There are a number of excellent contributors to the male side of the equation on this board that provide input and insight about keeping your woman from looking elsewhere. It is valuable information.

However, invariably it will always still come down to having two people that desire to serve the relationship and/or marriage. If one of them simply surrenders - it needn't and shouldn't be incumbent upon the devoted spouse to figure it all out, nor take responsibility for their partner's infidelity.

I know exactly why my wife cheated - and it is absolutely in alignment with the stages that Ms. Langley points out. Had I adopted more of the traits to maintain an equilibrium of attraction and balance in our relationship at the outset - this is what I know ... we would never have gotten married. Can't say that I would have been ok with that outcome either.

Don't think I'd buy the book, but I found it somewhat gratifying that a woman was interested enough in the factors behind her own infidelity to look for reasons deeper than 'my husband made me do it.'.

I have been doing a great deal of research on this topic. My own post mortem. I'm still in the process of cleaning up the body parts.


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## uhaul4mybaggage

Hey, Deejo,

I'm sorry for your pain. I am also cleaning up the bodies. 
I skimmed through the ad for the book on the site you linked to. 
What I don't get is why it is so shocking to everyone that women have affairs, too. It seems like simple math to me.. if 50 guys in 100 are doing it.. they can't all be gay... and if each has 1 partner, then close to 50 women must doing it too, right?

What I'm learning is that everyone has the potential to do it, despite our tenacious desire to believe "not me," "not her," or "not him." 

After being so wounded by my stbx, I have a tendency to demonize all men, but then I remind myself that there are men who don't cheat. Because, like me, they hold the covenant of marriage sacred, and would leave it honestly before defiling it. 

So, I'm in a place where I don't see myself ever trusting another individual with my emotional well-being again. I hope to find someday I was wrong about this, but I just don't see it at this point. 

Meanwhile, people are going to do what they are going to do. Men and women both. ESPECIALLY the ones we don't expect. (The others..well, their reputations sometimes precede them, and their SOs are more wary..they actually get away with less. 

Good luck mending yourself. Keep hope that not all women or men are bad. It's just hard as hell to know the difference.


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## 827Aug

Deejo,

Good luck healing. I really think cheating men and women run 50/50. I try hard not to make generalizations about "all men" now. I find myself doing that much less, so my outlook on life in general must be improving. However, I'll probably always be a little "gun shy" when it comes to future relationships. None of us ever won't to endure the pain caused by a cheating spouse again. I honestly don't think I could go through the ordeal again!


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## nice777guy

I read this awhile ago too.

I would have figured a 50/50 split, but I always pictured the men as being the initiators when it comes to infidelity. That somehow unfaithful women were mostly "seduced" by unsurly men.

But this site has opened my eyes to the idea that a woman doesn't need to be seduced to look for attention outside of her marriage.


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## MEM2020

Deejo,
Why do you say "if I had adopted more of the traits ..." we never would have gotten married?



Deejo said:


> For those of us that have already lived this ... the information comes as no surprise and far too little, far too late.
> 
> Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity
> 
> My gripe about this stuff is that it's all post-mortem. Nobody feels much like reflecting on "What the hell happened?" until the bomb has already gone off and the field is strewn with body parts.
> 
> There are a number of excellent contributors to the male side of the equation on this board that provide input and insight about keeping your woman from looking elsewhere. It is valuable information.
> 
> However, invariably it will always still come down to having two people that desire to serve the relationship and/or marriage. If one of them simply surrenders - it needn't and shouldn't be incumbent upon the devoted spouse to figure it all out, nor take responsibility for their partner's infidelity.
> 
> I know exactly why my wife cheated - and it is absolutely in alignment with the stages that Ms. Langley points out. Had I adopted more of the traits to maintain an equilibrium of attraction and balance in our relationship at the outset - this is what I know ... we would never have gotten married. Can't say that I would have been ok with that outcome either.
> 
> Don't think I'd buy the book, but I found it somewhat gratifying that a woman was interested enough in the factors behind her own infidelity to look for reasons deeper than 'my husband made me do it.'.
> 
> I have been doing a great deal of research on this topic. My own post mortem. I'm still in the process of cleaning up the body parts.


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## nice777guy

MEM - Don't want to speak for Deejo, but in my case I thought my wife married me because I was sensitive, caring, good sense of humor, etc. Had I been a bit more selfish, assertive, less sensitive (things I'm trying to learn to do now) then we likely would have taken different paths and never married each other.


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## edh

This fits my scenario "perfectly"...Wife tells me to get out if I want to have any chance of saving the 15-year marriage...indicates don't get your hopes up...needs her space...and doesn't want to pursue couples therapy. 

She's just gonna do "deep therapy" on herself...this was 5 weeks ago...I asked her this week where she stood and stated the same place...she said enough to indicate she indeed has a lover...

I said enough is enough...told her we need to see a financial mediator and get our divorce rolling...this is the second time for both of us and tremendously painful...but I deserve a helluva lot better...

Unfortunately, we men are suckers...we never see this "cheating" aspect of women...and it is everywhere after talking with many of my friends and colleagues...

Our 4 twenty-something sons (2 his/2 hers) are pretty blown away...the family they came to love and find comfort in is being blown apart...yes, body parts everywhere...

Here's to moving on...


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## MEM2020

NG,
I believe you do need to be sensitive and caring and have a good sense of humor. This is not about that. Because remember - before marriage she was nice BACK. What this is about is how men react when our female partners begin to conduct male "fitness tests" by pushing our boundaries. What would have happened if you had firmly addressed your W's texting behavior when it first started?

I believe women react badly to hearing that something makes you feel bad "after you have already told them once or twice". The first time is key because now they "know" and it is no longer a communication issue it is now a question of whether or not she is going to prioritize your need. I do believe many women respond better to action than words. And the ultimate male behavior women respond most strongly to is NOT anger - it is indifference. They are exceptionally aware of what indifference means to the power dynamic in a relationship. Guys - we aren't ALLOWED to use our physical strength advantage in a relationship which I personally think is a great improvement over historical "rules of engagement". Unless it is an extreme case and she is directly harming your children, highly emotional / verbalized extreme ANGER just conveys: The desperate hurt of a man whose love is overpowering his self control. Big step back. The calm determined mode of "if you do X, I am reluctantly going to have no choice but to do Y" works very well but you have to have the determination to follow through.

For example - I absolutely go into "limited communication" mode when I feel a boundary has been violated. And I don't come out until I get an explanation that makes sense or an apology. And not a "non" apology. I don't respond well to "I am sorry that upset you". Just as I apologize when I am wrong - which is a little bit more than 50 percent of the time . Limited communication is simple, requires no particular verbal skills - it DOES require a willingness to have conflict and to allow conflict to persist and sometimes escalate. 

And the one time in our marriage she said she needed "space" I started scheduling long weekend visits with friends and family and began to steadily ramp that up until I heard the magic words "I miss you". 

If you asked my W to predict my future marital behavior she would say: "Treated fairly he will NEVER leave and NEVER cheat", "Treated badly - he will either openly take a lover or flat out leave depending on the specifics of the situation". 

I would loosely say the same thing in reverse with the exception being that instead of taking a lover I imagine she would simply focus on making my life a non-stop living hell if she felt very badly treated. And if THAT didn't work THEN she would leave me. 

NG,
In this context - you cannot have daily communication with someone/text them "goodnight" every night when they are having an open ended series of EA's and ever hope to effectively convey indifference. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"I am the product of thousands of generations of successful male ancestors. When necessary they were totally determined and utterly ruthless. I see no reason to alter a behavioral pattern that has worked so well for so long." 





nice777guy said:


> MEM - Don't want to speak for Deejo, but in my case I thought my wife married me because I was sensitive, caring, good sense of humor, etc. Had I been a bit more selfish, assertive, less sensitive (things I'm trying to learn to do now) then we likely would have taken different paths and never married each other.


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## Deejo

MEM,

I'm going to ask you to go along with me for a moment. And in no way is my intention to minimize or marginalize your excellent input.

I have news for you ... your wife is cheating on you. She plays perfect wife, knows the in's and the out's of your relationship. Knows how to stroke your ego, and keep the peace. Everything in your marriage looks great. Except ... she is also f*cking another dude.

I know, seems impossible, right? I didn't believe it either. Most guys don't nor do they want to. But it is mundane. Downright common. Happens every single day. Whether we are honoring them or neglecting them - our wives are climbing aboard and doing the reverse cowgirl not with an Antonio Banderas wannabe, but with Al the Butcher from the Brady Bunch. 

If you made that discovery tomorrow, based upon what you know of your relationship right now ... what would your presumption be?

Would you believe that you 'missed' something in meeting her needs?

Or would you lean towards your wife has gone off her friggin rocker and you have little to no idea as to why?

My point is, that when you are in it and engaged, you generally do believe you are doing everything right. And when it comes down to it, you can be doing just about everything right - and still fail.

I'm not throwing my hands in the air and screaming at the heavens and stomping my feet. 
I am making the calculated acknowledgment that nobody is safe - ever; particularly if you stop doing the work - or never acknowledge that it requires tremendous work in the first place.

Ms. Langley's contribution also buttresses that little gem. If your wife decides to take that mental stroll where she questions the arc of happiness, fulfillment, challenge, success, (insert point of life introspection here) - and associates you as a minus rather than a plus in that evaluation, rightly or wrongly, your relationship has just been put at risk. 

So, in that regard, I completely agree with your strategy and much appreciated advice that behaving in a way that lends to, or assures her giving you a 'plus' is the way to go.

All I'm saying is sometimes the calculator is broken. 

To answer your question; I wouldn't have gotten married because I would have acknowledged that her deficits in communication and self-awareness were glaring - and not my job to fix. But I took it on, I liked the challenge of breaking down her walls - and she in turn loved me for doing it. I didn't realize that the walls would keep going back up. 

Eventually, I became part of the mortar for the walls instead of the wrecking ball.


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## MEM2020

Deejo,
My ultimate litmus test of where my W's head is at has to do with our sex life. Sorry - but that is a fairly objective measure of how "into you" a woman is. If she is into YOU, she really wants you to be into HER emotionally and the strongest emo glue to use with a man is frequent - good/great sex. 

So since we are in the world of total transparency I will share a strange but completely true sequence with you. 

Our sex life always ranged from good to great. At times when we were younger and I literally demanded pretty damn near daily sex we had tension - but she wanted to make it all work so she made the effort. 

So about 4-5 years ago I was on meds which took the edge of my personality, and then I also stopped lifting, became skinny and our sex life did suffer. Her desire for me dropped in a fairly obvious way. She still made it fun for me, but I could tell her attraction level was seriously impacted - and that sucked. So I made the effort - bulked back up to my normal size which is moderately muscled - I am by no means a steroidal monkey and have never touched a steroid in my life. 

So my body get back to "normal" and my aggression levels rose - which she also likes and like magic her desire rebounded. 
So everything was good for a couple years and THEN we hired this new guy at the little business we run - well actually she runs it. Nice looking guy, fun to be around. I was doing my normal tech consulting at the time but every week or two I would work a day at our business so I saw the two of them together. I could see there was some chemistry but what the hell - I trust her. And besides I wasn't going to ask her to fire someone because I was insecure. So I just ignored the situation. Over the next couple months she started this whole new routine in bed. More frequent - and starting out with this full body sexualized massage that honestly was even better than the "treatment" I get in Asia when the girls are hoping to get you turned on so you will buy the "happy ending". 

And you know - I figured this had to do with some redirected passion. Meaning she was taking her "desire" for him and applying it to me. Thing is - it was like a drug - it was that good. So I just went with the flow - and about a year later she told me that she had gotten a crush on this guy - hey she has nice taste, hell I like the guy. And she went to talk to her priest and he told her that the church needed strong marriages and she took that to mean she should make more of an effort to show her commitment to ME even though she was feeling some desire for him. Anyway when she told me all that I just laughed and said "I trust you - and I just didn't think you would go there so I never worried about it. Well that is not totally true - I upped my "game" a bit during that time but in a gradual way so as to not be obvious. 

I don't know what I would have done if she cheated. Probably felt sorry for her knowing how bad she would have felt. I doubt I would have left her. She has given me 21 great years. 

If she had started sexually starving me well that would have been a whole different story. As that would have meant she wasn't that into ME. And that would have gotten addressed fast and hard. And resolved in a way I was fully satisfied with. Which might have meant me openly taking a lover. I am not going to be sexually starved and treated as if I have no choice in the matter by the one person in my life who I give 100 percent to.

That is the closest we have come to the edge. FWIW - I don't consider this an EA since they never got into the texting/calling and to my knowledge never blatantly flirted. I think she simply fell for him. Chemistry is not controllable - behavior is.


Deejo said:


> MEM,
> 
> I'm going to ask you to go along with me for a moment. And in no way is my intention to minimize or marginalize your excellent input.
> 
> I have news for you ... your wife is cheating on you. She plays perfect wife, knows the in's and the out's of your relationship. Knows how to stroke your ego, and keep the peace. Everything in your marriage looks great. Except ... she is also f*cking another dude.
> 
> I know, seems impossible, right? I didn't believe it either. Most guys don't nor do they want to. But it is mundane. Downright common. Happens every single day. Whether we are honoring them or neglecting them - our wives are climbing aboard and doing the reverse cowgirl not with an Antonio Banderas wannabe, but with Al the Butcher from the Brady Bunch.
> 
> If you made that discovery tomorrow, based upon what you know of your relationship right now ... what would your presumption be?
> 
> Would you believe that you 'missed' something in meeting her needs?
> 
> Or would you lean towards your wife has gone off her friggin rocker and you have little to no idea as to why?
> 
> My point is, that when you are in it and engaged, you generally do believe you are doing everything right. And when it comes down to it, you can be doing just about everything right - and still fail.
> 
> I'm not throwing my hands in the air and screaming at the heavens and stomping my feet.
> I am making the calculated acknowledgment that nobody is safe - ever; particularly if you stop doing the work - or never acknowledge that it requires tremendous work in the first place.
> 
> Ms. Langley's contribution also buttresses that little gem. If your wife decides to take that mental stroll where she questions the arc of happiness, fulfillment, challenge, success, (insert point of life introspection here) - and associates you as a minus rather than a plus in that evaluation, rightly or wrongly, your relationship has just been put at risk.
> 
> So, in that regard, I completely agree with your strategy and much appreciated advice that behaving in a way that lends to, or assures her giving you a 'plus' is the way to go.
> 
> All I'm saying is sometimes the calculator is broken.
> 
> To answer your question; I wouldn't have gotten married because I would have acknowledged that her deficits in communication and self-awareness were glaring - and not my job to fix. But I took it on, I liked the challenge of breaking down her walls - and she in turn loved me for doing it. I didn't realize that the walls would keep going back up.
> 
> Eventually, I became part of the mortar for the walls instead of the wrecking ball.


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## MEM2020

Note the whole theme of Langley's article. It ALL starts with a loss of desire. And THAT is why I pay so much attention to THAT. From your prior posts - your W had some serious desire issues from before you had kids. Ultimately I reverse engineer my communication "self rating". It goes like this - the more "in love/passionate" she is with me, the better overall job I am doing. The less in love / passionate she is, the worse my overall job. So back to my prior story. 

At the time her desire mostly crashed and she kept having sex with me because she was committed to me and the marriage and she loved me enough to make the effort DESPITE the lack of passion - the two key drivers were:
- muscle mass and
- aggression level 

Think about that. I was actually EASIER to get along with. I didn't have that somewhat combative edge that is my normal state. Our communication per-se was exactly the same. But the 10% of the relationship that is fired by Alpha behavior was completely fuvked. 

I totally believe that sex is 10 percent of the relationship when it is good and 90 percent when it goes bad. 

And I absolutely believe the corollary to that is that your Alpha behavior is 10 percent of the relationship when you are doing it right and it BECOMES 90 PERCENT of the relationship when you are doing it poorly or not at all. 

Lose your Alpha, lose your Wife. Even if she isn't fuvking someone else, she likely isn't fuvking you - or if she is she is doing so as little as possible. 





Deejo said:


> MEM,
> 
> I'm going to ask you to go along with me for a moment. And in no way is my intention to minimize or marginalize your excellent input.
> 
> I have news for you ... your wife is cheating on you. She plays perfect wife, knows the in's and the out's of your relationship. Knows how to stroke your ego, and keep the peace. Everything in your marriage looks great. Except ... she is also f*cking another dude.
> 
> I know, seems impossible, right? I didn't believe it either. Most guys don't nor do they want to. But it is mundane. Downright common. Happens every single day. Whether we are honoring them or neglecting them - our wives are climbing aboard and doing the reverse cowgirl not with an Antonio Banderas wannabe, but with Al the Butcher from the Brady Bunch.
> 
> If you made that discovery tomorrow, based upon what you know of your relationship right now ... what would your presumption be?
> 
> Would you believe that you 'missed' something in meeting her needs?
> 
> Or would you lean towards your wife has gone off her friggin rocker and you have little to no idea as to why?
> 
> My point is, that when you are in it and engaged, you generally do believe you are doing everything right. And when it comes down to it, you can be doing just about everything right - and still fail.
> 
> I'm not throwing my hands in the air and screaming at the heavens and stomping my feet.
> I am making the calculated acknowledgment that nobody is safe - ever; particularly if you stop doing the work - or never acknowledge that it requires tremendous work in the first place.
> 
> Ms. Langley's contribution also buttresses that little gem. If your wife decides to take that mental stroll where she questions the arc of happiness, fulfillment, challenge, success, (insert point of life introspection here) - and associates you as a minus rather than a plus in that evaluation, rightly or wrongly, your relationship has just been put at risk.
> 
> So, in that regard, I completely agree with your strategy and much appreciated advice that behaving in a way that lends to, or assures her giving you a 'plus' is the way to go.
> 
> All I'm saying is sometimes the calculator is broken.
> 
> To answer your question; I wouldn't have gotten married because I would have acknowledged that her deficits in communication and self-awareness were glaring - and not my job to fix. But I took it on, I liked the challenge of breaking down her walls - and she in turn loved me for doing it. I didn't realize that the walls would keep going back up.
> 
> Eventually, I became part of the mortar for the walls instead of the wrecking ball.


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## Deejo

MEM11363 said:


> From your prior posts - your W had some serious desire issues from before you had kids. Ultimately I reverse engineer my communication "self rating". It goes like this - the more "in love/passionate" she is with me, the better overall job I am doing. The less in love / passionate she is, the worse my overall job.


Which is exactly why I say had I 'upped my Alpha' we never would have gotten married. That isn't meant to be a statement of surrender, that had I stood up for myself she would have dumped me. Had I upped my alpha - I wouldn't have accepted her as a partner.

I wasn't a pushover. Mistakenly, I started dialing back expectations and boundaries as a result of being familiar with her issues instead of dialing them up. Did she appreciate it? Sure she did. But at this point, you are preaching to the choir on the issue of desire. I am fully aware that being devoted, accommodating, and consistently going the distance to please your partner *to the point of sacrificing your own terms and boundaries* is a desire killer - regardless if you are male or female.


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## Deejo

breeze said:


> I think a woman who is having sex, and enjoying it, with her husband on a very regular basis, and I mean 4 or more times a week, would hardly have the desire to go elsewhere.


Not true. There is a case here on these boards of a guy with a high drive wife (they were greater than 4x /week) that the very night he turned her down because he was tired, went out to a bar and hooked up - and blamed her husband for not meeting her needs. If I can find the thread, I'll post the link. So once again, do we presume this chick had some issues, or that hubby just wasn't cutting it? Do you see where I'm going here? 

It would be great to get to cut and dry. This works. That doesn't. This is healthy. That isn't. This will give you a happy wife and get you laid. That will earn you resentment and no sex.

It just isn't ever going to be that simple or straightforward. It may be for some, and they have nothing but my heart-felt congratulations and envy. But the reality is that most of us - both men and women 'feel' like we have it right, out of the gate. And it may feel right for a very long time. But those feelings change over time and we do not adjust accordingly - and suddenly what used to work and felt right, just doesn't any more. Or, we know there are issues that stand as road-blocks, but given our emotional investment we choose to work around, or overlook those issues in our partner.

I'm not looking to make excuses, or marginalize methods that contribute to maintaining happy, healthy, sexed-up marriages. If anything, I am decrying that these things are not taught, nor is there a relationship proficiency exam required _before_ you walk down the aisle and make vows to a partner for a lifetime - and invariably fall far short of those vows or coming anywhere near to a lifetime.

I'm all for 'Gaming'. It works. I have used it. I get it. It is undoubtedly a tool to be used with wisdom, especially in a LTR. But it isn't a magic bullet. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Mileage varies. I have been in sexual relationships _twice_ following the separation with my wife. Both of which I pulled the plug on, based on circumstances or plain old chemistry. I have been on a number of dates. 

Knowing my spouse as I do. Do you know what I think relationship model is the one that would keep her fire lit?

An affair.

It is forbidden. It is exciting. It inherently comes with a degree of guilt, shame, joy, and euphoria. It isn't real. It is grounded in selfish fantasy. Those are the feelings that are mixed up in her coupling chemistry, and historically the relationships she chose to pursue fit that model - myself included.

I knew all this, and I chose her anyway. And your Goddamn right it made for a helluva ride - in a good way. But part of the plan was also to build a future and raise kids together. That meant mundane routine, responsibility, hard work, sacrifice, and meeting expectations. We couldn't reconcile those two worlds.
And neither can many couples that have circumstances looking nothing like mine.


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## Zammo

I read this quote and it stuck with me - 

"Women want to get married, they don't want to be married."

While simplistic, there is quite a bit of truth here.


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## okeydokie

when a man cheats it is his fault

when a woman cheats its also his fault



that was of course just a joke


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## Deejo

As I indicated, in an earlier response to breeze about women having frequent sex with their husbands not wanting or needing to look elsewhere - I give you:

My Wife Wants Sex All The Time

Sometimes this stuff is just too painful and weird to even conceptualize. This example pretty much kills the bell curve.

Moral of the story folks? Men cheat. Women cheat. The men and women that you suspect would never cheat ... cheat. If you were to ask my wife why she cheated, she would tell you it is because she believed I was cheating. Neither gender can claim the high ground.

I have been reading "COMMITTED: A Skeptic Makes Peace with Marriage" by Elizabeth Gilbert. The very same lady currently being portrayed by Julia Roberts in "Eat, Pray, Love", co-starring Anton Shigur as her lover in a theater near you.

The lady has a great writing style, and I highly recommend the book.

She dedicates an entire section examining that once we (Western Culture) prioritized personal happiness as grounds and a requirement for a successful marriage, we by default assured that the divorce rate would sky rocket. She contrasts cultures where the entire perspective of marriage is not based off of happiness of the individuals, but more a sense of service - the greater good - the community - a contract, what have you.

She distinctly talks about the intoxicating stage of infatuation, versus the grounded steadiness of mature love - and as we have been discussing - stress, vulnerability, or dissatisfaction can easily set one up to project the fantasy of happiness, leading to infatuation on someone other than our spouse.

I am paraphrasing and simplifying but it makes for a great read.


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## AFEH

Deejo,
I enjoy your writing, you have and are developing more wisdom. But to what purpose. Do you know?

Me I’m in the middle of ending a 42 year love affair with my wife. I’ve had my fair share of pain and heartache but I’ve also had more than my fair share of joy and happiness. I’ve experienced bliss. Some of the stories I read on here are heartbreaking. I wonder why some Men tolerate such things. I know I did and I wonder why. If I were to take a guess my answer would be that’s life. That's love. And love and life is a wonderful thing.

Bob


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## DailyGrind

uhaul4mybaggage said:


> if 50 guys in 100 are doing it.. they can't all be gay... and if each has 1 partner, then close to 50 women must doing it too, right?


Either that...OR....ONE...REALLY active woman. :rofl:

DailyGrind


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## Deejo

AFEH said:


> Deejo,
> I enjoy your writing, you have and are developing more wisdom. But to what purpose. Do you know?
> 
> Bob


Best answer I can give right now, Bob, is coming to terms with accepting there is the way I thought the world was meant to be, and there is the way it is. It's taking some getting used to.

I think I'm hardwired for monogamy - and I don't have a problem with that. I don't fall in love easily. It has happened 3 times in my life. Each successive love filled the gap of her predecessor, until new love came along I had; I have, a hard time letting go of the woman I do love, even if the relationship has been over for some time. There were plenty of women in between. None of them effected me like the big 3. I only married one of them. I wanted to remain married - but not at any cost. In then end, I'm saddened by the fact that her cost of sacrificing the marriage was much lower than mine.

Awaiting number 4. In the meantime I accept that #3 will occasionally pull on my heart strings.


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## AFEH

Deejo, it goes without saying thinks me that it’s not possible to understand other people. Our mind is not in their body. I’ve had a problem understanding myself but I’m getting there by degrees.

What do you think about acceptance without understanding? How would you feel about accepting without understanding?

Bob


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## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> What do you think about acceptance without understanding? How would you feel about accepting without understanding?
> 
> Bob


We do that a lot as people, don't we?

I think Deejo has a pretty decent idea of why his wife did what she did, but a lot of people don't ever figure it out. Then - you just have to move on.


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## Deejo

AFEH said:


> Deejo, it goes without saying thinks me that it’s not possible to understand other people. Our mind is not in their body. I’ve had a problem understanding myself but I’m getting there by degrees.
> 
> What do you think about acceptance without understanding? How would you feel about accepting without understanding?
> 
> Bob


Acceptance without full understanding? I'm good with that.

Acceptance with a smile that which I cannot change, as opposed to more than a little indignation and anger? No friggin' way. 

The original direction that I wanted to go with all of this is just that it sucks that we don't make these discoveries about ourselves, our partners, and the dynamics of conducting a productive, healthy and mutually prosperous intimate relationship until you have already screwed up your intimate relationship.

I distinctly remember my wife and I talking about divorce a number of years ago as a friend of mine went through it. At that point, we truly asked ourselves "How is it that people get there? How do they get to that place of wanting it to be over? How do so many couples get it wrong?"

We couldn't imagine those circumstances for us at the time. But looking back in hindsight, we were already setting the stage. We were just blissfully ignorant.

It just seems backwards. Somebody posted a thread recently about the irony that you have to take a parenting class to divorce - but not before you decide to become parents in the first place.

I'm going to make a comment about 'Gaming' as well. This is the less sexist charged phrase for Pick-up Artistry. In a nutshell how to get women to want to have sex with you in an expedient fashion. It borrows heavily from a number of concepts and fields, particularly the notion of asserting dominance, assertiveness, Alpha-ness, that frequently comes up.

I bought a PUA book - it's in the Man Up books thread. It's name is pretty straightforward and doesn't invite a whole lot of introspection. It's called "The Lay Guide". And yes, without a doubt it works. But 'Gaming' believes it's own marketing material. The thrust is meeting women, talking to women, winning over women, sexing women. I used to think this was fundamentally disrespectful. I do not hold that view any longer.

However, for all of the really good stuff PUA technology has to offer, as various authors or 'gamers' will discuss their numerous conquests ... is that 'gaming' is also like a pyramid scheme. It is geared towards the next score and not a 'one and done' mentality. This is because if you are a 'gamer' trying to conduct a LTR, at some point with your partner, the game face has to come off. You have to just ... be. And the reality is, when you do that, you're just another schmuck. Gaming isn't about finding the girl of your dreams and settling down. It's about finding the girl of your dreams, tagging her and then seeing if you can go one up on her.

This is where I have to say that I really value the input of contributors like MEM, AtholK and BigBadWolf. Because despite referencing 'gaming' behavior and mechanics, all of them do so with a focus on instead of making hundreds of women burn with hot desire for your man-package, their advice is centered on just making one woman - the woman that counts, always and without question burn with hot desire for your man-package.

I support this 100%. 

Doesn't mean that I won't continue to question, poke, prod, and occasionally challenge it.

What is dangerous for me, and being in touch with my dark side, is that I know I could be successful in gaming my stbx. I'm more attractive NOT married to her - while she knows that I am with other women. And yep, I absolutely recognize the dysfunction in that.


----------



## Deejo

okeydokie said:


> when a man cheats it is his fault
> 
> when a woman cheats its also his fault
> 
> 
> 
> that was of course just a joke


It's only a joke because we've seen it and laughed at the craziness of it.

From the perspective of manning up and owning your sh!t, I do know that a good portion of it was my fault. I was inattentive. Specifically, I was inattentive to the things _I shouldn't have been doing._


----------



## MEM2020

Sorry Deejo - that is an EXTREME outlier. I have never read a story before or since even close to that of the guy whose wife cheated because he wouldn't have sex on the 4th/5th night in a row. 

As for gaming. Good gaming is consistent, it is fair. It is not to change your relative sex ranks by harming her self esteem. That said telling a spouse who is sexually starving you how much you love and desire them is self emasculating madness. It is a direct transfer of self esteem - it lowers yours and raises theirs. CHOOSING not to express love in that situation might be called gaming - I call it loving yourself enough not to amplify the already toxic emotional imbalance that exists.




Deejo said:


> Not true. There is a case here on these boards of a guy with a high drive wife (they were greater than 4x /week) that the very night he turned her down because he was tired, went out to a bar and hooked up - and blamed her husband for not meeting her needs. If I can find the thread, I'll post the link. So once again, do we presume this chick had some issues, or that hubby just wasn't cutting it? Do you see where I'm going here?
> 
> It would be great to get to cut and dry. This works. That doesn't. This is healthy. That isn't. This will give you a happy wife and get you laid. That will earn you resentment and no sex.
> 
> It just isn't ever going to be that simple or straightforward. It may be for some, and they have nothing but my heart-felt congratulations and envy. But the reality is that most of us - both men and women 'feel' like we have it right, out of the gate. And it may feel right for a very long time. But those feelings change over time and we do not adjust accordingly - and suddenly what used to work and felt right, just doesn't any more. Or, we know there are issues that stand as road-blocks, but given our emotional investment we choose to work around, or overlook those issues in our partner.
> 
> I'm not looking to make excuses, or marginalize methods that contribute to maintaining happy, healthy, sexed-up marriages. If anything, I am decrying that these things are not taught, nor is there a relationship proficiency exam required _before_ you walk down the aisle and make vows to a partner for a lifetime - and invariably fall far short of those vows or coming anywhere near to a lifetime.
> 
> I'm all for 'Gaming'. It works. I have used it. I get it. It is undoubtedly a tool to be used with wisdom, especially in a LTR. But it isn't a magic bullet. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Mileage varies. I have been in sexual relationships _twice_ following the separation with my wife. Both of which I pulled the plug on, based on circumstances or plain old chemistry. I have been on a number of dates.
> 
> Knowing my spouse as I do. Do you know what I think relationship model is the one that would keep her fire lit?
> 
> An affair.
> 
> It is forbidden. It is exciting. It inherently comes with a degree of guilt, shame, joy, and euphoria. It isn't real. It is grounded in selfish fantasy. Those are the feelings that are mixed up in her coupling chemistry, and historically the relationships she chose to pursue fit that model - myself included.
> 
> I knew all this, and I chose her anyway. And your Goddamn right it made for a helluva ride - in a good way. But part of the plan was also to build a future and raise kids together. That meant mundane routine, responsibility, hard work, sacrifice, and meeting expectations. We couldn't reconcile those two worlds.
> And neither can many couples that have circumstances looking nothing like mine.


----------



## Deejo

MEM11363 said:


> Sorry Deejo - that is an EXTREME outlier.


Hate to point out the obvious, MEM, but so are your circumstances. Your story just lies at the other end of the spectrum where I'm sure most folks would like to be. Couples that are in happy, healthy, sexually fulfilling relationships after 20 plus years of marriage are about as common to me as the story about that poor guy. 

That isn't sour grapes. It's a compliment.



> As for gaming. Good gaming is consistent, it is fair. It is not to change your relative sex ranks by harming her self esteem.


 People (women) may not like the concept of gaming, but it does have a code - as it should of, 'do no harm'. 



> That said telling a spouse who is sexually starving you how much you love and desire them is self emasculating madness. It is a direct transfer of self esteem - it lowers yours and raises theirs. CHOOSING not to express love in that situation might be called gaming - I call it loving yourself enough not to amplify the already toxic emotional imbalance that exists.


You're illustrating my point. When you, me, and any number of other guys here now read the ubiquitous thread titled: "Wife doesn't want sex" there is a pretty good idea of what went on, and what is going on - and what needs to change.

But to draw the analogy to "An Inconvenient Truth", when you are in the thick of it, you are mimicking the frog in the pot of boiling water scenario. You start in a comfortable pot of cool water - and your wife turns up the heat, but we don't readily notice that the pot is getting hotter - until it's too late. We become parboiled, sexless, frogs.

We also follow a script that is fundamentally flawed - primarily because it is the script that has been given to us by women, and we believed it.
It tells guys to try harder. Say I love you more. Communicate. Be affectionate. Be accommodating. Be romantic. But if the dynamic is already broken, if desire has already bled out, then following this script is actually the kiss of death.

I really want to stress that my posting a lot of this stuff is meant to be more observational than b!tching. 

I can sum up pretty easy:

I'm not pleased that I am getting a divorce. But I also recognize that despite what I wish were the case, there really isn't much left of the marriage to warrant salvaging.

And I will always believe that if it can be salvaged, it should be salvaged - because odds are, your next relationship functionally isn't likely to be all that different at it's core, from the one you are trying to dissolve. The emotional and financial toll a divorce takes can't possibly be overestimated.


----------



## Deejo

Liked my response so much, I posted it twice.


----------



## nice777guy

So Deejo - in the relationships you've had since you've "emotionally" separated, do you feel yourself drawn to the same type of woman?

Or do you find yourself looking at women who are the polar opposite of your wife?

You basically said above that we are doomed to repeat...unless I mis-read.


----------



## nice777guy

breeze said:


> I think that *striving to be constantly happy is unrealistic*. Expecting our partners to be perfect and meet every need is unrealistic. People who make it work are those that *forgive* the faults of their partner and *have clear boundaries* about what they can and can't tolerate, and for a majority of the time, are just two intelligent, reasonable people, imo.
> 
> Being unhappy lets you appreciate when you are happy.


Very well said.


----------



## BigBadWolf

Deejo,

Thank you for posting your thoughts on this thread. 

I have much to say about many things you are speaking of, and maybe in the right time and place, even if it is just my opinion, I would be happy to expound if beneficial. Regardless here are some thougts.

Gaming: I don't like it or support it in any way using people as scorecards. I don't like that it can easily be guilt by association simple masculine dominance as a caricature of some sex starved frat boy. Just as the same tools can build a noble house or a shoddy one, or as the same weapons can defend a noble cause or a destructive one, it is the same with the tools of masculine dominance.

The man in the relationship: I had decided early on my scope on this board would be rather narrow, to focus on giving advice on how to fix the all too common complaint of sexless marriage by quickly giving a summation of the cause and effect on the whole relationship by simply being a weak man versus being a dominant man. I agree that most marriages rise or fall on pretty much only this thing: how successful the good man and woman are in maintaining their original sexual attraction that lead them together in the first place. My opinion, everything else in the relationship from resentment to affairs to childrearing to careers to what color to paint the living room trim, are all tied to this one thing. 

Sexual structure: Humans are sexual beings, we speak a sexual language that is so predominate and so much a part of who we are it is practically hidden, like they say, the forrest is hidden by the sheer number of trees. Our very happiness is so tied up in our sexual opinion of ourselves it would likely strike us all to our knees if we realized the half of it, so it is my opinion and experience, that it is the greatest benefit for us to even scratch the surface of understanding this sexual language. Men strive to dominate, women strive to be dominated. This simple sentence contains much truth, but also much subtlety. 

Control: The mechanics, pretty much the same, a struggle of control in the relationship. The difference, the man and woman often feel very different happiness about the outcome. But not necessarily to be viewed as zero sum. I am not happy at some expense of my wife, quite the opposite. She is delighted when I would do something aggressive towards her sexually, just as she is delighted when I aggressively tackle some financial or emotional or social aspect in our own family. I am delighted at the sexual freedom I enjoy with her, and the freedom I enjoy in our relationship and so in return I am happy to do the things that a woman wants her man to do and find it quite natural (give her attention, take care of my responsibilities, etc).

Unusual outliers?: I think know what you are saying, in the context of MEM11363, and maybe even myself, to be married like the both of us, to women and in both our cases over 20 years, yes that is not common. 

And it is a balancing act that I am aware of, as to what have I learned in my relationship would be beneficial to say to a stranger on a public forum, that he or she or anyone else coming along to read later that may or may not even work in their own particular relationships. 

Some luck? Of course, maybe I am biased, but out of the millions of women I have my wife and for some reason we ended up together. The luck, yes she just so happens to be very attractive and takes great care of her appearance and is very feminine in her posture and manners and speaking and dress, so yes it is easy for me to be visually stimulated around her. But also this two edged sword, she is very smart and perceptive, so it is very VERY difficult for me to ever pull any wool over her eyes, whether to surprise her with a gift or some vacation plan, or even to pass a little white lie or someting, I am almost guaranteed to get found out!

So the point is, how much of my behavior that works with us will work in some other relationship? Well, the reality is, as special as my wife is to me, she is very much a woman like many other women, and as special as I may think of myself, in most ways I am just a man as many other men.

And the point, is that years ago I was very much in some of these same scenarios, after the kids, sex was dropping, resentment was building, and things could have spiraled in my marriage as do so many others.

The difference, it dawned on my one day, in my feelings of resentment, to simply ask myself what would make me happy? ANd maybe for several days or even a week, to ask myself this every day. And the answer, not some great revelation or enlightment, but instead for me it was to simply start doing all the things that made me happy, and stop doing anything that did not.

This did not mean I was packing up and leaving and running after strange women either! This meant if I wanted to spend more times with my children, I did even if it meant telling someone else no, or putting off some other responsibility. ANd maybe in the context of this forum, it meant the next time my woman said something offhanded that offended me, instead to try to keep the peace I refused to let her get away with it. THe problem was, even from the first time, instead of some big fight instead she apologized and I kid you not, that night was incredible sex. 

So I quickly put two plus two together, and then realized even to look back during our dating, when we were teenagers and the sexual relationship was practically non stop, what kind of young man I was, and what kind of older man did I let myself become?

I realized, there is the element of childish selfishness that I thought must need to go away as I got older, and so I think I did what many men do and become so much the "married man.".

But instead what I was calling selfishness was what today we will call on this forum my dominance, my edge, my dark side, or even "my game" to quote Deejo.

And now, years later, I can't remember the last time my wife spoke to me in any way disrespectful, or said something to me to cause resentment. 

ANd our sexual life, it is making our teenage version of ourselves look like strictly religious people by comparison, for even the times I am thinking "man I am really pushing things" by calling her a name or pulling her hair, or even some things much worse. Then I see that her reaction is very much even wanting more and more, and she will share in remember how aggresive I was, it is making her crave me all day and want to reward me when I get home.

Look, if you had told me years ago during my resentment time that my married life would eventually be like this, I would have thought you were drinking or high or something.

And the point of all this, really, is that I am not on this board to represent some bizarre fairy tale or freak of nature, at least I hope that's not what is happening!  

I'm here to tell you, that yes much of what we think we know about our relationships is instead very miserable and destructive and mostly told and perpetuated by people who are not in happy relationships themselves.

For me, it is very easy to act in the ways to make me happy, and to get the rewards is very motivating.

But I remember the fog when I was in resentment, how impossible some of these things would seem, and what would I say to myself then, as the man I am now, to make these things much more obvious.

So that is why I am hoping to be beneficial here, because I see many of the scenerios I was in, and I know at least what has worked for me, and the other marriages and relationships over the years, friends and family, that I have also lent a hand. 

But to be able to do on this internet forum, a very powerful and useful tool that I hope many good men and women will be able to find and use and build a something noble and strong, a relationship of happiness and contentment, and not a prison of misery that so many seem to find themselves trapped!

Again I appreciate this thread, and will continue to watch with interest.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> We do that a lot as people, don't we?
> 
> I think Deejo has a pretty decent idea of why his wife did what she did, but a lot of people don't ever figure it out. Then - you just have to move on.


I don’t know. I don’t know a lot of people in that way. If I were to do a survey I’d need to survey at least a thousand people and then the answers would only be statistically correct.

People are such complicated things. It’s like there’s a universe in each of our heads that’s uniquely different for each and everyone of us. That universe in our head is our unique experience of the universe outside of our head.

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

Bob - I guess religion comes to mind. "If" 50% of people still believe in God or other cosmic forces, then they are accepting without truly knowing or understanding.

Not enough time to try and understand everything.

Not much choice but learn to accept what life is handing you. Even if you plan to change - I think you have to accept and recognize your situation for what it is first.

Think I need my coffee now!


----------



## AFEH

Consistent hot desire from a wife is in my experience a fallacy, a pure myth in a long term marriage.

Marriage is like a living organism in and of itself and it has a lot to go through. The courting phase, a wedding, child rearing, learning, cooking, cleaning, home maintenance, budgets, spending and saving, paying bills, tragedies, the deaths of loved ones, holidays, moving home, finding good schools, children leaving home, mid life change and mid life crisis, compromise, infidelity, depression, redundancy, making up, menopause, careers, work, financial crisis, gardening, the growth and evolution of the spouses and the growth and evolution of the marriage, health and medical operations. Then at the end there’s the retirement phase. When the two people in the marriage find themselves together in some cases 24x7 52 weeks of the year and that’s a whole new ballgame.

Over time the spouses evolve but at different times and in their own way. Over time the marriage itself evolves just as a living organism would.

Consistent hot desire from a wife through all that? That’s not my experience. I would to have been ten different men and my wife ten different women. It's simply not possible.

Bob


----------



## Deejo

breeze said:


> I hear a lot of discussion that makes it sound like women are incredibly complicated creatures and it's nearly impossible to keep one happy. Do everything she wants and you become a wimp in her eyes. Do whatever you want and you become neglectful and unloving. Do something in between and you still get screwed over.


Pretty much . But, to be clear ... I'm not complaining. Like any worthwhile endeavor, my expectation is to get to the best of something it takes practice and work. Where relationships are concerned, I find it disappointing that the common model is that they degrade over time rather than improve. The common model seems to be that all of the work is done up front, and that's it. Working at the marriage and relationship 5, 10, 20 years down the road tends to either be passive, or altogether neglected. Rather than falling more deeply in love, we tend to fall out of love.

I want to be better at relationships. For me, this truly isn't meant to be a b!tch session about women. It's a bit of a lamentation of what I did wrong in trying to hold my marriage together - while at the same time letting my wife go.

I'm not worried about being alone. But I'm certainly not naive enough to believe that falling and staying in love is easy.



> I agree there's been a lot of incorrect and conflicting information out there to make the job more difficult than it should be.


Exactly.



> I think that striving to be constantly happy is unrealistic. Expecting our partners to be perfect and meet every need is unrealistic. People who make it work are those that forgive the faults of their partner and have clear boundaries about what they can and can't tolerate, and for a majority of the time, are just two intelligent, reasonable people, imo.


Marry me ... after I get divorced. Very well said, breeze.


----------



## AFEH

breeze said:


> I think that striving to be constantly happy is unrealistic. Expecting our partners to be perfect and meet every need is unrealistic. People who make it work are those that forgive the faults of their partner and have clear boundaries about what they can and can't tolerate, and for a majority of the time, are just two intelligent, reasonable people, imo.
> 
> Being unhappy lets you appreciate when you are happy.


I totally agree Breeze. Forgiveness is essential for a good marriage. I have a core belief in and truly value forgiveness. People who believe in forgiveness can see and understand a very big picture, a picture outside of their own head, we see a lot more and we understand a lot more.

People who don’t forgive see a very little picture, it’s a little picture inside their own head. At the end of the day these people hold onto supposed grudges, become bitter and resentful and turn themselves into victims.


Bob


----------



## AFEH

breeze said:


> I hear a lot of discussion that makes it sound like women are incredibly complicated creatures and it's nearly impossible to keep one happy. Do everything she wants and you become a wimp in her eyes. Do whatever you want and you become neglectful and unloving. Do something in between and you still get screwed over.
> 
> Since so many men are also unhappy in relationships, you'd have to assume that men are just as difficult to make happy as women.


Surely we’re all incredibly complicated creatures. We’ve all got our own unique universe in our head.

I’ve a fundamental belief that in general men understand men better than they do women and women understand women better than they do men.

The reason for that? Men and women are exceptionally different in many more ways than just the outside body. There’s a whole lot of difference inside. Men and woman’s brains are literally wired in different ways and there’s a reason for that, a woman has a womb, a man doesn’t etc. They communicate in exceptionally different ways and they have somewhat different core values and beliefs.

It’s the core values and beliefs than make one man different from another man and one woman different from another woman. Find out what a person’s core values and beliefs are and you will “know” the person.

But watch out though because the rules of the game may have changed.

In long term marriages a person evolves and changes. It’s not just the outside physical appearance that changes as time goes by. The inside changes as well and the changes are interlinked. What changes on the inside besides the effects of time, the ageing process on organs etc? A person’s core values and beliefs change and as these change so does their external behaviour. I think women are far more observant of these changes in behaviour than men are. Women are life’s observers as well as participators. Men just get a “gut” feeling that something’s wrong.

There’s an old Chinese saying “If you haven’t seen your friend for three days, take a careful look they may have changed”

Bob


----------



## AFEH

breeze said:


> We're told to give him sex and puff him up with lots of appreciation and he's a happy man forever.


It’s all so very easy isn’t it. Not complicated at all. But there’s many a woman in the world that doesn’t get that oh so simple concept.

But I’m afraid that many a woman looks upon sex as “giving it”. There’s many a husband that would thoroughly enjoy their wife “taking” or initiating sex. I do believe that’s a little known concept in most women’s mind. There’s even been a tv series about it. In the program the change in the marriage dynamics and level of joy and happiness in the marriage for both the husband and the wife when the wife initiated was absolutely startling. They both thoroughly enjoyed learning about it. The results were unanimous for all the couples who participated. A lot of women do initiate sex in the courting stage in their own subtle ways. Why on earth they stop after they’re married is way beyond my understanding. But some will start it up again in their own subtle ways when they fear their marriage is dead and over. It’s usually way too late by then.

A wife will again start to initiate sex this time with another man when they are looking to get out of the marriage. They have what is for me at least very subtle ways of doing it. Brushing her hair back to expose her ear and neck, bending down to expose her breasts, exposing her palms and wrists, pointing her knees and feet towards the man she’s interested in, wearing sexy underwear. All these and many more are signs, body language for the husband to be aware of and take note of. If we do observe, see them we get a feeling in our gut that something’s wrong. When we attempt to find out we get lies, denial, blame and minimising. It is indeed a complex world. But women know this world far better than men. That’s why one women can so rarely deceive another but can so easily deceive a man.

Appreciation for what he does is a massive thing in a man’s life, as it is in a woman’s life. It makes both the husband and wife feel important to their spouse, that what they do is of value. Appreciation is the mechanism or process by which both men and women know they are of value to their spouse.

If a person does not know the true value of demonstrating their appreciation of what another has done for them, the value of making that person feel important to them then that person knows very little about human behaviour. The people that do understand the true value of appreciation lead happy and joyful lives and the one’s that get it the most sit at the top of the corporate tree.

Demonstrating appreciation not only has significant value within a marriage, it also has significant value outside of marriage, in the career and social life.

Bob


----------



## Deejo

Was more than a little stunned to tune in my radio on the commute to work this morning, and hear this topic being discussed on NPR. Must be something in the air:

The Knotty Debate Over Marriage

One hour just isn't a lot of time to cover the ground on a subject like this. I also found it disappointing that both the guests, and predominantly the callers focused on the female perspective of looking at marriage. An understandable oversight given that they based the discussion on essays written by each woman, but patently not the whole picture. Would be like having a discussion about abortion rights with just a panel of men.


----------



## AFEH

Deejo said:


> Was more than a little stunned to tune in my radio on the commute to work this morning, and hear this topic being discussed on NPR. Must be something in the air:
> 
> The Knotty Debate Over Marriage
> 
> One hour just isn't a lot of time to cover the ground on a subject like this. I also found it disappointing that both the guests, and predominantly the callers focused on the female perspective of looking at marriage. An understandable oversight given that they based the discussion on essays written by each woman, but patently not the whole picture. Would be like having a discussion about abortion rights with just a panel of men.


A burden a man carries on his journey through married life is that if his wife is upset it is always the husband who is at fault. Wife not happy? The husband must have done something wrong. Everything he’s done right does not enter the equation. Even in the divorce court. It is part of being a Man.

There is an exception to this rule. That is when a woman who’s not the wife agrees with the husband’s version of his marriage stories. This is the woman who wants the husband, it is called EA.

Bob


----------



## Deejo

BigBadWolf said:


> Deejo,
> 
> Thank you for posting your thoughts on this thread.
> 
> I have much to say about many things you are speaking of, and maybe in the right time and place, even if it is just my opinion, I would be happy to expound if beneficial. Regardless here are some thougts.


Always appreciate another insight from a success story, BBW.



> Gaming: I don't like it or support it in any way using people as scorecards. I don't like that it can easily be guilt by association simple masculine dominance as a caricature of some sex starved frat boy. Just as the same tools can build a noble house or a shoddy one, or as the same weapons can defend a noble cause or a destructive one, it is the same with the tools of masculine dominance.


Given it's name, it's easy to make those unsavory associations. For the record, I don't associate any of those negative connotations to you, MEM or other male contributors. 'Gaming' for the young is about getting the girl. I'm more interested in keeping the girl.



> The man in the relationship: I had decided early on my scope on this board would be rather narrow, to focus on giving advice on how to fix the all too common complaint of sexless marriage by quickly giving a summation of the cause and effect on the whole relationship by simply being a weak man versus being a dominant man. I agree that most marriages rise or fall on pretty much only this thing: how successful the good man and woman are in maintaining their original sexual attraction that lead them together in the first place. My opinion, everything else in the relationship from resentment to affairs to childrearing to careers to what color to paint the living room trim, are all tied to this one thing.
> 
> Sexual structure: Humans are sexual beings, we speak a sexual language that is so predominate and so much a part of who we are it is practically hidden, like they say, the forrest is hidden by the sheer number of trees. Our very happiness is so tied up in our sexual opinion of ourselves it would likely strike us all to our knees if we realized the half of it, so it is my opinion and experience, that it is the greatest benefit for us to even scratch the surface of understanding this sexual language. Men strive to dominate, women strive to be dominated. This simple sentence contains much truth, but also much subtlety.
> 
> Control: The mechanics, pretty much the same, a struggle of control in the relationship. The difference, the man and woman often feel very different happiness about the outcome. But not necessarily to be viewed as zero sum. I am not happy at some expense of my wife, quite the opposite. She is delighted when I would do something aggressive towards her sexually, just as she is delighted when I aggressively tackle some financial or emotional or social aspect in our own family. I am delighted at the sexual freedom I enjoy with her, and the freedom I enjoy in our relationship and so in return I am happy to do the things that a woman wants her man to do and find it quite natural (give her attention, take care of my responsibilities, etc).
> 
> Unusual outliers?: I think know what you are saying, in the context of MEM11363, and maybe even myself, to be married like the both of us, to women and in both our cases over 20 years, yes that is not common.


I think the role and scope that you, and MEM and AtholK fill is extremely important. Women will generally dismiss it as being reduced to a 'thing' to be managed. I can understand and recognize that some may find the entire concept fundamentally insulting. 

This isn't about women. It's about men managing themselves. It's important. And by the way, my heartfelt congratulations to you as well for successfully, and happily, navigating the whitewater of matrimony for over two decades. I recognize that one of the best barometers we probably have for measuring the overall health of a marriage is attraction and sex. I have never looked at the input that you and the others give as simply about getting laid - it's about staying married ... happily married. Who wouldn't want to support that?




> So the point is, how much of my behavior that works with us will work in some other relationship? Well, the reality is, as special as my wife is to me, she is very much a woman like many other women, and as special as I may think of myself, in most ways I am just a man as many other men.
> 
> And the point, is that years ago I was very much in some of these same scenarios, after the kids, sex was dropping, resentment was building, and things could have spiraled in my marriage as do so many others.
> 
> The difference, it dawned on my one day, in my feelings of resentment, to simply ask myself what would make me happy? ANd maybe for several days or even a week, to ask myself this every day. And the answer, not some great revelation or enlightment, but instead for me it was to simply start doing all the things that made me happy, and stop doing anything that did not.
> 
> This did not mean I was packing up and leaving and running after strange women either! This meant if I wanted to spend more times with my children, I did even if it meant telling someone else no, or putting off some other responsibility. ANd maybe in the context of this forum, it meant the next time my woman said something offhanded that offended me, instead to try to keep the peace I refused to let her get away with it. THe problem was, even from the first time, instead of some big fight instead she apologized and I kid you not, that night was incredible sex.


One of the most fundamental things that I missed, and I think many men miss, is handing over the responsibility of 'pleasing us' to our spouse or partner. We make it their job. And that is a fatal mistake. Framed in that perspective, it can only go downhill.

Desire turns into expectation - and expectation is an entirely different animal. The flip-side of which is disappointment and resentment. Resentment is like quicksand.

Our job is to take the steps necessary so that 'pleasing us' never feels like a job to our partner. Desire has a very positive connotation. The terms expectation, responsibility, and job, do not.






> So I quickly put two plus two together, and then realized even to look back during our dating, when we were teenagers and the sexual relationship was practically non stop, what kind of young man I was, and what kind of older man did I let myself become?
> 
> I realized, there is the element of childish selfishness that I thought must need to go away as I got older, and so I think I did what many men do and become so much the "married man.".
> 
> But instead what I was calling selfishness was what today we will call on this forum my dominance, my edge, my dark side, or even "my game" to quote Deejo.


 I think I like a term AtholK used on his blog better than referring to what men in LTR's are doing as gaming. I think working your 'Mojo' is more appropriate - and even has a sexier connotation.




> Look, if you had told me years ago during my resentment time that my married life would eventually be like this, I would have thought you were drinking or high or something.
> 
> And the point of all this, really, is that I am not on this board to represent some bizarre fairy tale or freak of nature, at least I hope that's not what is happening!
> 
> I'm here to tell you, that yes much of what we think we know about our relationships is instead very miserable and destructive and mostly told and perpetuated by people who are not in happy relationships themselves.
> 
> For me, it is very easy to act in the ways to make me happy, and to get the rewards is very motivating.
> 
> But I remember the fog when I was in resentment, how impossible some of these things would seem, and what would I say to myself then, as the man I am now, to make these things much more obvious.
> 
> So that is why I am hoping to be beneficial here, because I see many of the scenerios I was in, and I know at least what has worked for me, and the other marriages and relationships over the years, friends and family, that I have also lent a hand.
> 
> But to be able to do on this internet forum, a very powerful and useful tool that I hope many good men and women will be able to find and use and build a something noble and strong, a relationship of happiness and contentment, and not a prison of misery that so many seem to find themselves trapped!
> 
> Again I appreciate this thread, and will continue to watch with interest.


The post-modern feminized man is a colossal friggin disaster on the relationship front. On the personal awareness front I think we got some good stuff, but the relationship management and dynamics piece needs serious re-engineering. Again, thanks for your input, and congrats on your happiness and sexcess.


----------



## nice777guy

So - why doesn't this **** hit the fan until 10 to 15 years down the road?

For most people, sex goes downhill after the first child - 3 to 5 years into things. I would guess that for MOST people, this decrease in the frequency of sex is permanent because children of all ages require time and energy. Plus, most of us lose a bit of our step as we age. Yes - there are exceptions. But most people have a lot more sex when they are younger and before they have kids.

But this "test" that women give us, or this "Mid-life Crisis", seems to come several years after the first child - often after the 2nd or 3rd.

So, a basic question I often find myself asking:
*"If I was good enough for her to marry, and good enough for her to stay with and NOT stray for 14+ years, why should I start looking to change myself now? Why assume that I'm the problem?"*

Now, I understand that making positive changes is always - well - positive. And that these changes may be necessary for a healthy 2nd marriage. But the MEM and BBW way of seeing things leads many of us to conclude - self included - that suddenly you aren't "Man Enough".

Also - in my case - it isn't just me that my wife is pushing me away. Its the kids, her family, friends who are mothers with children, etc., etc. Tempting to say "maybe my case is different", but that's what we ALL said at first, right?

And Deejo - you missed a question or two I asked on the last page. Try to keep up please!


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> So Deejo - in the relationships you've had since you've "emotionally" separated, do you feel yourself drawn to the same type of woman?
> 
> Or do you find yourself looking at women who are the polar opposite of your wife?
> 
> You basically said above that we are doomed to repeat...unless I mis-read.


I laughed when I read this NG. My "emotional" separation is questionable at times, isn't it?
My confession is that I am still undeniably, very physically attracted to #3, my stbx.

I am without a doubt, drawn to a very specific type of woman. All of the Big 3 were fit, athletic, smart, and had an 'edge'.

Two of them were sexually traumatized. This I didn't know until I was in the thick of both relationships. It made me wonder about my 'attraction radar', but the tragic reality is, a huge number of women have suffered some type of sexual trauma - and simply never address it. We just don't know about it. They both loved and trusted me enough at the time to share that information.

2 and 3 were extremely similar but presented very differently. Number 1 was my first love at the age of 15. I don't feel fully confident commenting about her, because she really wasn't done becoming who she was going to be. But I loved her, I surely know that.

And no, the women I dated although interesting, smart, attractive, and seemingly healthy, didn't set off the fireworks like the Big 3. I'm ok with that. But at the point where it became clear that either both of us, or one of us were looking for different things, we parted ways. Sometimes easily and friendly, other times not so much. But that is the price of admission in looking for a partner that does induce fireworks.

In terms of overall disclosure, I have had 19 sexual partners. I only offer that up to stress that it isn't a matter that I fell in love with women that agreed to have sex with me. It ain't braggin' rights. I'm not a choir boy, but I'm certainly not a bad boy either.


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## nice777guy

Maybe this is off topic, maybe not - but aren't women with a little bit of crazy in them usually more attractive???

Without that "crazy" there's no spark - they can be pretty, intelligent, witty - but still no spark.

Think I've said it before here - that the things that drew me to my wife initially are very much the same things that are driving me away from her now.


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## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> So - why doesn't this **** hit the fan until 10 to 15 years down the road?
> 
> For most people, sex goes downhill after the first child - 3 to 5 years into things. I would guess that for MOST people, this decrease in the frequency of sex is permanent because children of all ages require time and energy. Plus, most of us lose a bit of our step as we age. Yes - there are exceptions. But most people have a lot more sex when they are younger and before they have kids.
> 
> But this "test" that women give us, or this "Mid-life Crisis", seems to come several years after the first child - often after the 2nd or 3rd.
> 
> So, a basic question I often find myself asking:
> *"If I was good enough for her to marry, and good enough for her to stay with and NOT stray for 14+ years, why should I start looking to change myself now? Why assume that I'm the problem?"*
> 
> Now, I understand that making positive changes is always - well - positive. And that these changes may be necessary for a healthy 2nd marriage. But the MEM and BBW way of seeing things leads many of us to conclude - self included - that suddenly you aren't "Man Enough".
> 
> Also - in my case - it isn't just me that my wife is pushing me away. Its the kids, her family, friends who are mothers with children, etc., etc. Tempting to say "maybe my case is different", but that's what we ALL said at first, right?
> 
> And Deejo - you missed a question or two I asked on the last page. Try to keep up please!



This goes back to part of my statement at the outset that despite the fact that there are probably things that we could have done, should have done - or pointedly shouldn't have done; that it isn't our job to take responsibility for how our partners decide to re-evaluate their life and self-worth. Ms. Langley's article makes it relatively clear that women have an _idealized or romanticized_ view of what they want - and when things don't pan out according to the ideal, they lay responsibility at their own feet, if they are courageous, or at their husband's feet if they are less so. They may bolt. Or, they may surrender into the quagmire of passive resentment, ie: no more poonani for hubby.

Am I now caught up?


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## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Maybe this is off topic, maybe not - but aren't women with a little bit of crazy in them usually more attractive???
> 
> Without that "crazy" there's no spark - they can be pretty, intelligent, witty - but still no spark.
> 
> Think I've said it before here - that the things that drew me to my wife initially are very much the same things that are driving me away from her now.


Without a doubt. But crazy doesn't necessarily need to mean 'crazy'.

I think of this along the exact same lines of sparking attraction that BBW, MEM, and AtholK express. It's the same dynamic at play.


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## MEM2020

I don't know guys - this is complicated. First of all - full disclosure - two big factors in our sex life never being seriously impacted by having 3 kids was:
- That simply wasn't acceptable to me. I just made it clear that I made her long list of priorities MY priorities simply because I am a good partner. And that my ONE dependency would not be ignored or I would view that as the ultimate message of indifference for MY happiness. In hindsight I was too demanding. She made it work but I know she felt used during the first 10 years of our marriage - ok maybe the first 15. But she also felt love and she DID accept the concept of "he gives a LOT this is his ONE thing that he is not very flexible on." Still - I have moments of guilt. I could have/should have been nicer. That said - she was difficult and hurtful at times for reasons wholly unconnected to our sex life. Passion and pain/conflict are not easily separated. 
- She did NOT have the work/kid killer schedule that many American women have. Had she, no question we would have had a LOT less sex. She was a SAHM with no financial stress. I am sure there were times when she would have liked to tell me to go fuvk myself and leave. And then the combo of her catholic (anti divorce) upbringing and her very practical - oh shoot - the W2 follows the penis - kicked in. And she resisted the urge. 









nice777guy said:


> So - why doesn't this **** hit the fan until 10 to 15 years down the road?
> 
> For most people, sex goes downhill after the first child - 3 to 5 years into things. I would guess that for MOST people, this decrease in the frequency of sex is permanent because children of all ages require time and energy. Plus, most of us lose a bit of our step as we age. Yes - there are exceptions. But most people have a lot more sex when they are younger and before they have kids.
> 
> But this "test" that women give us, or this "Mid-life Crisis", seems to come several years after the first child - often after the 2nd or 3rd.
> 
> So, a basic question I often find myself asking:
> *"If I was good enough for her to marry, and good enough for her to stay with and NOT stray for 14+ years, why should I start looking to change myself now? Why assume that I'm the problem?"*
> 
> Now, I understand that making positive changes is always - well - positive. And that these changes may be necessary for a healthy 2nd marriage. But the MEM and BBW way of seeing things leads many of us to conclude - self included - that suddenly you aren't "Man Enough".
> 
> Also - in my case - it isn't just me that my wife is pushing me away. Its the kids, her family, friends who are mothers with children, etc., etc. Tempting to say "maybe my case is different", but that's what we ALL said at first, right?
> 
> And Deejo - you missed a question or two I asked on the last page. Try to keep up please!


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## MEM2020

NG,
This is directly ON topic. Excellent point. Absolutely 100 percent true. The "crazy" is like the spice in an exotic emotional stew Fuvking irriesistable". But a "little" crazy steadily becomes BATSCHIT crazy without FEAR. FEAR is powerful stuff. With that said - it must be used very judiciously. If your partner walks around on eggshells that means YOU are either a bully or you have a serious anger management problem and that kills love. My highest quality intimidation/FEAR creation is done dead calm. Hers too. She is a scary biotch when provoked. No eggshells for me - but I walk very softly when I begin to hear the sound of ice cracking underfoot. 

I love that she is a touch crazy and at times seriously scary. That is smokin hot. Like a big jungle cat - that can talk. Graceful, a little quiet, definitely a bit sadistic (only with grownups and mainly with me) and funnier than Garfield. 




nice777guy said:


> Maybe this is off topic, maybe not - but aren't women with a little bit of crazy in them usually more attractive???
> 
> Without that "crazy" there's no spark - they can be pretty, intelligent, witty - but still no spark.
> 
> Think I've said it before here - that the things that drew me to my wife initially are very much the same things that are driving me away from her now.


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## nice777guy

After I typed my question about "crazy" I started thinking that most relationships have just one person on the edge of going bat$hit. Two people with strong personality types would be hard to mix in most cases.

I think I have very little, if any, insanity, mystery, fire inside. Hard to create that $hit from scratch suddenly at age 38 - dealing with a (lately) demanding full time job and basically being a single Dad with a fairly dependable sitter (my wife).

But that's part of why "we" worked for so long - we balanced each other out. She pushed me to take some risks while I reeled her in from time to time.

I've tried before - to go bat$hit - but it just isn't who I am - so it comes across as forced and I usually regret it later. Kind of like how a joke that comes from a straight A student would be met with silence - while the same joke from the class clown would be met with laughter. It ain't just what you do - but also what people expect you to do - to some degree.

Of if I married someone who was also "safe" - we'd bore each other to pieces.

So - forget the dominant aspect of things for a minute - are most marriages made up of one stronger, somewhat unbalanced personality that is offset by a more stable, predictable personality?

The guys my wife has been chasing - they obviously don't value marriage, else they wouldn't be pursuing/entertaining a married woman. So - 2 Bat$hits - they might have fun for a bit, but eventually it will blow up. Neither would respect the relationship, so it would just be a matter of time before it implodes.

Thoughts? Comments? Anyone care to respond with a poem?

If I'm right, you would have to add unpredictability and mystery to the list of what it takes to make it. And personalities that mesh and not clash.


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## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> So - forget the dominant aspect of things for a minute - are most marriages made up of one stronger, somewhat unbalanced personality that is offset by a more stable, predictable personality?


You're spot on NG.

We were so opposite it’s unbelievable. I was the “mover and shaker” in our marriage and my wife the patient and consistent one. In some ways I was the unstable one, my wife the stable one. I was always looking to change, my wife always looking not to change. I was the optimist, my wife the pessimist. At one time she said her life would have been boring if it wasn’t for me. Due to my need to consistently test myself, learn and grow we lived in different countries and did many things together. My wife was the most stable person in my life and gave me an anchor to the ground.

Think of it quite literally like magnets, opposite poles attract, same poles repel. The attraction I felt to my wife was a very powerful thing, something I couldn’t resist. It was magnetic.

At times it got that I just couldn’t understand her so I did a lot of reading. Carol Jung the psychologist wrote some things I really connected with especially with Symbiosis …..

_A psychological state where contents of one's personal unconscious are experienced in another person. (See also projection and soul image.)

Symbiosis manifests in unconscious interpersonal bonds, easily established and difficult to break. Jung gave an example in terms of introversion and extraversion. Where one of these attitudes is dominant, the other, being unconscious, is automatically projected.

Either type has a predilection to marry its opposite, each being unconsciously complementary to the other. The one takes care of reflection and the other sees to the initiative and practical action. When the two types marry, they may effect an ideal union. So long as they are fully occupied with their adaptation to the manifold external needs of life they fit together admirably. ["The Problem of the Attitude Type," CW 7, par. 80.]

Problems in such relationships typically surface only later in life, accompanied by strong affect.

When the man has made enough money, or if a fine legacy should drop from the skies and external necessity no longer presses, then they have time to occupy themselves with one another. Hitherto they stood back to back and defended themselves against necessity.

But now they turn face to face and look for understanding ... only to discover that they have never understood one another. Each speaks a different language. Then the conflict between the two types begins. This struggle is envenomed, brutal, full of mutual depreciation, even when conducted quietly and in the greatest intimacy. For the value of the one is the negation of value for the other. [Ibid.]

The ending of a symbiotic relationship often precipitates an outbreak of neurosis, stimulated by an inner need to assimilate those aspects of oneself that were projected onto the partner._




It must have been ten years ago when I got into all this and the last paragraph above has come as a bit of a surprise. Last year for the first time in my life I wanted to consolidate what I had, make it safe and secure, no more forcing myself outside my comfort zone. 

In effect I’d embodied some of my wife’s needs, her values and beliefs. I had the outbreak of neurosis, I had a nervous breakdown for 4 weeks and I knew I could no longer live with my wife if she kept repeating certain aspects of her behaviour. I told her what I would no longer tolerate and unless she changed I would not spend the rest of my life with her. It’s something I was compelled to do to protect my self. We have now just started talking about and planning our divorce.


Bob


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## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> If I'm right, you would have to add unpredictability and mystery to the list of what it takes to make it. And personalities that mesh and not clash.


I don’t think that’s possible and I don’t think it happens. The two cannot exist at the same time. Opposites are needed when starting out as young people in married life. It needs opposites to perform all the functions within marriage. And there will be clashes sometimes very big clashes because of the opposite nature of the characters. And then the coming together again after a clash through sex reconnects both partners at the physical sexual level and reinvigorates that aspect of the marriage. Me I think sex also has spiritual and soulful aspects to it and the partner’s souls and spirits are also healed and re-energised.

I’ve never had to “play” my wife in anyway even in the best way of thinking about the concept. “Sex” was always there throughout my marriage, I was never once denied in 42 years. We did it often and we did it everywhere all through our time together. Sure there were breaks of 2 or 3 weeks due to a clash but they were infrequent in our marriage overall. The personality clashes and the coming together again was how our sex life was renewed and reinvigorated. Opposites generate energy and movement.

Personalities that mesh and don’t clash don’t last long in my mind. They become boring and unenergetic. These are the marriages made because the husband and wife are “friends” first before they get married. That oh so important sexual, spiritual and soulful energy is not there and both partners wonder what it is they are missing out on in life.

The driving need for personalities that mesh and not clash come later in life. Hopefully both spouses evolve at the same time within the marriage. But I don’t think this happens often and it’s why the divorce rate of people in my age group is on the increase. And I'm one of the new 60 year olds who still has the same level of fitness, health and energy I had in my 40s, I'm still around the same weight as I was at that age and the same BMI. But my mind, values and beliefs are very very different as is what I want out of life. My wife is more or less the same but she has evolved differently, almost opposite to me in her mind, values and beliefs. To look at her you'd think my wife a sexual 40 year old but she's 58.

The need for personalities that don’t clash comes later in life. At this stage if the marriage has come to an end we look for someone similar to ourselves because we don’t want the conflict anymore, no matter how much joy and happiness is in the marriage.

In accordance with all this my next partner will be someone more like me than my opposite. Now there’s a sobering thought. But I still have not as yet gone through this particular process of change so I’m a little unsure of who I am and what I represent. In that way I’m not ready as yet for a new relationship. I will get our divorce completed in an amicable way and I’m getting my wife to work with me with that goal in mind and bless her she is responding. Maybe it’s the first thing we’ll ever work on together as true partners in 42 years of knowing one another. Strange old life.

But I am seriously looking forward to being with someone who enjoys doing what I do. Sports, archaeology, photography that sort of thing and someone with more or less the same philosophy of life that I have. I think that’s going to come in the form of a woman quite a bit younger and more intelligent than I am.

Bob


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## nice777guy

I guess part of my thinking again was that I don't have that "spark" - which was part of the reason my wife looked elsewhere.

SOOO....

Almost seems like we are all doomed from the start. We need the differences to come together. But unless the "crazy one" learns some control and understands the reality of a long-term relationship, they are going to look elsewhere - they will look to people who are more like them. They get bored with the "predictable" partner, but can't sustain a long-term relationship with someone who is too much like them.

I do think its possible to be somewhat unpredictable and mysterious without stepping outside of one's comfort zone. Maybe difficult, but possible.

So basically, if I marry myself, we bore each other to death. Marry my opposite and I get a good 10-15 years before my personality becomes boring and my spouse looks elsewhere to add excitement back to her life.

This has been real encouraging!!!


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## nice777guy

A few more thoughts...

I'm generalizing of course. Life isn't black and white, but we all do have "tendencies" to lean one way or the other. Maybe two "moderately" crazy people could make it work.

And I don't really mean "crazy" - not sure that "outgoing" fully captures what I'm looking for, so I'm sticking with "crazy" until I find a better word that encompasses the need to stretch boundaries and seek excitement.

Also - BBW and MEM - do you guys think you are the "sparks" in your marriages? Are you more likely to seek adventure than your spouse? Wondering if maybe you both meet that criteria of being able to understand the benefits of sustaining a long-term relationship, even if it isn't always so exciting. 

Maybe it isn't all about sex and adhering to more traditional and natural gender roles in the marriage and bedroom. Maybe its just as much finding the right "personality" type for you, in addition to finding someone with the emotional intelligence to recognize the benefits of marriage.


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## AFEH

NG,
One man’s medicine is another man’s poison. It’s all relative and subjective. It’s all in the “eye of the beholder”. A person who seems “crazy” to one person seems perfectly normal to someone else. Birds of a feather flock together and all that. But marriage isn’t a flock, it’s a partnership of two people and sometimes those people are exceptional different, opposites.

You’re talking about relationship psychology. To really get into it maybe study Carl Jung for a bit. There’s a forum I helped initiate a few years ago at Kaleidoscope Forum. And maybe take the Myers Briggs test, there are many on the internet. This will at least give you an indication of the “type” of person you are.

My wife is an ISTJ (Introverted, Sensing, Thinking, Judgemental) and I’m an ENFP (Extroverted, Intuition, Feeling, Perceiving). That is according to Myers Briggs we are opposites and they’re not far off at all.

There is no single silver bullet for these things.

Bob


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## nice777guy

Have done Myers-Briggs many times - always INFP - wife is always ESTJ.

Once again - opposites that initially balanced each other are now at odds?

Guess that's life!


----------



## Deejo

Risk taking is subjective. I also believe that it is a practice that should be implemented for a lifetime. It needn't mean that you decide to go from low key and predictable to off-the-hook batsh!t, or take up sky diving and running with the bulls in Pamplona.

It can be as simple as ordering something radically different off of a menu other than your 'usual', to staying quiet and listening where you would usually yell, or speaking up where you would usually shut down. If you are a confrontation averse person, or a 'fixer', deciding to stand up for yourself instead of backing down, or backing off where you would usually step in, are other ways of challenging yourself. These are all ways of introducing 'Spark'.

I do think that consistently being willing to step outside your comfort zone is the very thing that gives you more character, and makes you less predictable. Unpredictable is good. Unsafe, is not.

I was both confrontation averse and a fixer. I wasn't afraid of confrontation, I just didn't see much point to it. Using male terms, I was a Beta Master. (Not to be confused with a Master Beta)

I wielded Beta skills with supreme efficiency. My general mode of operation was to work towards 'Mutually Assured Success' for all parties involved. But I don't think anyone would ever describe me as boring, unimaginative, predictable, or dull. I was the communicator. I was the facilitator. I wanted shiny, happy people. I did romance like nobody's business. I was the guy that would have roses and champagne waiting in the hotel room upon arrival. I was the guy that would show up for a date, and say "pack your bags ...we're outta here.". I was the guy that could whip up a five course meal with wine from 'nothing in the fridge' in less than 40 minutes. I was the guy that believed you could 'romance' your wife for a life time. And that is exactly what I tried to do. But you know what? Being 'Lover Boy' can lose it's shine to the object of your affection just as easily as being Martin Milquetoast. Being unpredictable eventually becomes your point of predictability. 

I have no intentions of not being the guy above. But, I don't want to be the guy above whom the women that I fall in love with eventually grow complacent, or indifferent towards. That is why in my recent dating history, and even moreso in interactions with my stbx, I have been changing it up with Alpha stuff, or perhaps more appropriately, with decisions and behavior that are outside of my normal bag of tricks or what would be expected.

I will also point out that in the scheme of the Big 3, from a personality standpoint, I was the 'Spark' in relationships #1 and #3. #2 was the female version of me. From a 'fun' and unpredictable standpoint, she took the crown. Our personalities and ability to interact and communicate absolutely clicked.

I will also disclose that #2 followed to a tee ... the script outlined by Ms. Langley posted at the beginning of this thread. We were together for 5 years. After becoming engaged, she began to withdraw, sex dropped off, she found a new hobby - and a new friend. After breaking off our engagement, she moved in with that friend (something she vowed she would never do - live with a guy before marrying) Eighteen months later, she insisted on marriage. He decided he didn't like that idea, so instead cheated on her. Within two weeks of her moving out - he had the girlfriend move in. Two months later he married the girlfriend. Three months after that, they divorced.

#2 was left jilted and jaded. Ahh ... sweet karma.

I started dating #3 about 4 months after my breakup with #2. #3 was the Anti-#2. Calm, measured, confident, cool ... predictable. Where #2 was like a cat on a hot tin roof, #3 was like a lioness. She radiated cool, collected strength. #3 believed that I was Martin Milquetoast - until we had sex. I will never in my life forget it. After the event she looked right at me, exhaled a deep breath, and said "Whew ... no vanilla there." From that point, right up until she encountered actual physical issues, as a result of our frequency, sex was the most physically active and emotionally fulfilling of my life. It was adventurous and fun. #3 hands down ruled the bedroom - and the car, golf course, mountain top, tent, back porch, shed, washing machine, kitchen and dining room table, other various pieces of furniture and floor.

I don't know if all of this is too much information, helpful, or just sounds self-aggrandizing. It certainly isn't meant to be the latter, given that in the end of two of the Big 3 - I got dumped.

I suppose I hoped to illustrate that the arc of infatuation to indifference, to relationship death isn't static. It certainly seems to follow a formula, but the mix of chemicals can be endless. They aren't always the same.

I definitely don't think it is a zero sum game. I don't think one partner has to be placid and predictable and the other needs to be a lightning rod. I think that both need to recognize, acknowledge and work at complimenting one another - always, while also respecting the individual. Once again I really believe that respect is a huge factor, and it is a piece of the dominant/submissive equation. 

Somebody posted this recently, and I have been hearing the phrase more and more as we move into equanimity regarding the concept that both men and women screw up marriage. It is no longer the provenance of Men, despite attempts to obfuscate, rationalize or justify by the fairer sex.

"Women like the idea of being married, far more than the reality of being married ..."

I don't adhere that the above applies to All Women. But it sure as hell applied to #'s 2 and 3.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Have done Myers-Briggs many times - always INFP - wife is always ESTJ.
> 
> Once again - opposites that initially balanced each other are now at odds?
> 
> Guess that's life!


NG,
How would you paraphrase the break-up of your marriage? What decisions and judgements have you come to?

Or maybe, it sounds like it, you are still Perceiving. If you are and cannot make Judgements maybe someone else can help you come to conclusions. Or is that what you are trying to do now?

My eventual Judgement was no Appreciation, no Forgiveness and no Emotional Honesty. AFEH. That's what’s going on my divorce papers with just a little explanation as Unreasonable Behaviour.

Don't get me wrong, we both had affairs in the beginning and we worked through them. Plus there's been some EAs on my wife's behalf later on. I'm one of life's forgivers and I think I'm a humanist, so I can see both sides. I've forgiven AFEH but no way could I tolerate any more of it.

Bob


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## BigBadWolf

nice777guy said:


> Also - BBW and MEM - do you guys think you are the "sparks" in your marriages? Are you more likely to seek adventure than your spouse? Wondering if maybe you both meet that criteria of being able to understand the benefits of sustaining a long-term relationship, even if it isn't always so exciting.


My opinion, sometimes it is easy to not see the forrest for the trees in this type of discussion. As to what makes one relationship work, and another fail, and to start on personality types and applied psychology, I cannot get on that boat because I simply don't subscribe to it in this scenario.

Why? Because to me it is like trying to fix a flat tire by musing quantum physics.

I could list a hundred ways my wife is very different from me, and a hundred ways my wife is just like me. And I guess that would be interesting to some, maybe not.

In many aspects of our relationship, I have been happy to allow my wife to make decisions, pursue her happiness, engage in hobbies and even to pursue her career as she has ever wanted. In all that, we have discovered together that her greatest desire is to be a SAHM and devote herself to management of the household, including the management of our finances. 

This also would include trip and vacation planning, and coordination of activities involving our children and that even includes starting several groups and organizations based around my children's interests and activities.

While myself, I am more singlarly focused and tenacioius to whatefver particular goal I would have in mind. So in my career, with her taken care of business at home and the children, I have been able to focus and put myself in the position of a career (not meaning to give too much personal information) in a fortune 500 company that I enjoy, gives me a very flexible schedule, and allows us the income for her to have spent virtually all of our children's years growing up with their mother at home.

So while my wife is extremely detail oriented, and good at multitasking, I am much more comfortable and creative in regards to establishing, let's say, a particular vision or desired result, and laying a plan to accomplishing the tasks or eliminating the obstacles in order to reach that result.

Not that I am sure this is helpful, but maybe to answer your quetsions, yes in most ways looking at this my wife and I "fit" together most wonderfuly.

But know also in these things, even as I have said in other threads, even with this rose colored scenario that my wife and I "fit", there was still the same lack of sex after the kids were born leading to the spiral of resentment that I faced like so so so many other men.

When things turned around, and this is just this simple and basic and maybe even to make so many behavior psychologist groan, is when I focused on why the sex was becoming less and less frequent.



> Maybe it isn't all about sex and adhering to more traditional and natural gender roles in the marriage and bedroom. Maybe its just as much finding the right "personality" type for you, in addition to finding someone with the emotional intelligence to recognize the benefits of marriage.


And this is just where I will say I disagree 100 percent.

As compatible as my wife and myself were, and as much as she is sexy and attractive and I am not shabby myself and a good provider and loving father, there was not much sex and to be very honest I was not a happy man.

Nor it seems, was my wife a happy woman.

Only now to speak of these things in hindsight, to me it was so easy and obvious.

But in the time of happening, a great mystery and what seems was just a sad fact of life, or of just getting old, or any such things as would be talking about on this forum as falling out of love.

So as I spoke earlier, did I focus on the lack of sex, and so I started to study what I was like before, as a young man with sex plentiful.

And also did I study even to the minute details, how did I feel when I saw my wife, or hear her coming into the room. 

Did I feel as I did when we were young and discovering each other?

No, often I either felt not much, or worse, felt dread, as if to wonder what she would need, or be complaining about, or to start talking about something to interupt my reading or something.

So this is easy to see now, I had a mountain of resentment to her, shadowing every second that we were togother, so big and so everpresent. So I understand now how insidious resentment is in relationships, how it creeps in little by little but unless addressed it will never go away.

And so I focused on the resentment, and to put that in perspective simply meant that no longer would I hold back my feelings, regardless to keep the peace or make my wife angry or mad or sad or want to leave or anything. 

So when my resolve to kill the resentment was finally greater than my resolve to appease my wife, that is when things changed for our relationship, very quickly, very dramatic as almost a hurricane upheaving the ocean over the seashore!

In all these things, such as I typed earlier, when I finally stopped appeasement to my wife in all areas, and instead layed out my desires and requirments and standing up for myself in all areas, I will say this again, my wife's reaction blew me away.

She was if seeing me again for the first time, as the look I remember when we were dating. Instead of her getting angry, she was apologizing, and the million little things, starting to offer me cold drinks when I was working in the yard, or hot coffee in the morning before I left for work. See these things I did not even mention, or ask for, yet so many things I noticed, did not the most important thing occur, and that our sex life went from not so much to through the roof. And I mean in the forms of her begging me to let her do this or that for me, and even in those times I wanted to maybe give her a break, no no no, did she make sure that if I did not pursue her that she would make sure she was pursued one way or the other.

It was as if she was a new woman, unleashed very much with fury and lust. 

And so this is simply this, nothing more or less, she was doing this from her own desire to submit to my dominance that I was finally not witholding from showing her, and had been witholding for years and years.

And know this next part is hard to put into words, maybe it is helpful or not.

But during all this, and in my focusing on the effects of dominance and sexuallity, and maybe in my excitement to share with my wife, as she is very much my favorite person and best friend, would I be very enthusiastic to discuss with her the female reaction to dominance, to put these behaviors into words and maybe discuss with her on the intellectual and academic and logical pieces of all this incredible change to our relationship.

She would have none of it. I mean she would just show no interest and made it clear that, well, whatever was going on needed to be kept at least as a mystery to her. And this is a woman that at a drop of the hat will enjoy discussing einstein or hawking or sagan!

And a few times I have tried to explore her logical and intellectual opinion on how our sex life was so spontaneous and alive as if a switch was thrown, or maybe more telling, how by her own hinting and reactions, that our physical encounters would get often very aggressive and dark and hinting of violence and then the spankings and even other dark dark dark things that I would not mention in words, and again and again, her reactoin was at the very worst merely confusion, but mostly blissfully ecstatic, that the more aggresive and dominant I got, then the more her orgasms would come freely and frequent and even her fantasies and desires would she be able to show me.

Yet to speak of these things in words to her in logic, not effective.

Yet to say something aggresive, or give a strong look, would she then be sure to express her submission, or to take my hand and place it between her thighs to show me the reaction of these mere actions on my part were producing a very strong and physical reaction to her womanly places.

So what is her message, and yes, her leadership communicating to me? What I always say on this board, in matters of sexual attraction actions and behavior are what matter, actions speak louder than words.

And this, I am only typing all this to make this point, to me this reaction is nothing short of a miracle. And there is nothing on this world that to me would be a motivating to make our relationsihp last and last, for me to anything for my wife, than to honor her and please her and give my life for her, for these things that she has given me, which is her submission and her body and her adoration. 

Sexual fullfillment IS the motivation and bliss for long term relationsihps. 

And this is not caused by being good friends, or liking the same hobbies, or being a personallity type match, it is caused by something much older and deeper and primal than all this. 

For when a man is a man to his woman, and his woman is a woman to him, this is the structure of sexual attraction.

And sexual attraction to each the good man and the woman is the *motivation *and unleashing to spur each other to be both creative for each other and protective of each other. 

Nothing else is as the powerful motivator than sexual attraction, for we are sexual beings as our greatest common denominator.

I hope this is beneficial.


----------



## AFEH

BigBadWolf said:


> For when a man is a man to his woman, and his woman is a woman to him, this is the structure of sexual attraction.
> 
> And sexual attraction to each the good man and the woman is the *motivation *and unleashing to spur each other to be both creative for each other and protective of each other.
> 
> Nothing else is as the powerful motivator than sexual attraction, for we are sexual beings as our greatest common denominator.
> 
> I hope this is beneficial.


Amen to that.

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

Wow guys. Thanks for sharing. Still trying to interpret how all of this applies to me - and if any of this is truly universal or not. Thank you both - BBW and Deejo - for the depth and honesty.

Bob - sometimes I think I understand what has happened. My wife went to nursing school, got her degree, and was then diagnosed with Fibro and Chronic Fatigue syndrome. So, where she used to have big plans, she now has this big gaping hole that she's trying to fill with attention and validation from other men. I became the primary parent to our kids while she was in nursing school. She seems to be not only pushing me away, but them as well. 

In my case, I don't believe that "we" can talk about reconciliation until "she" has found something healthy to fill that hole up with.

Maybe the Fibro and illness just expediated the "arc" that the article in Deejo's original post refers to. Maybe she would have been having affairs with Doctors in 3-5 years had she not been sent home sick.

The question's I'm trying to answer are more about myself at this point. Why do I continue to hang onto such a toxic relationship? Don't think its hope any more - so it must be fear. Just what am I afraid of losing?

Then - if I can get past those questions and figure myself out - then maybe I'll be ready to move on and apply some of the things I've learned on this board to a new, healthy relationship. Or I'll join a monastery.

It also helps me to stand my ground in my current emotional tug-of-war. There really are days - fewer and farther between - where I think I should just lay down and assume the roll of family doormat. But I know it wouldn't last - I'd be miserable - and be setting a horrible example for my young girls.

Also - if you're still with me - this stuff is just fascinating. I think that's why people like MEM and BBW come here and try to use their stories to help other people.


----------



## AFEH

Ok NG, I have a little understanding of where you are at, I’ve just read about fibro. That must be so difficult not just for your wife but for all the concerned people in her life. Not the least you and your children. For some unknown reason the word condemned comes to mind. I think maybe your wife feels like she’s been condemned.

That sort of illness has a massive effect on how people behave. It is not at all surprising that you have witnessed such a ground shaking change in her behaviour. This forum is all about people going through the normal rumble and tumble of married life. Your case is exceedingly different.

I don’t think it “expediated the arc” at all, not at all. That arc has nothing to do with this situation. I think you are looking in the wrong place for your answers.

Is there a support group for people with partners who have fibro? If there is maybe that’s where you will find your answers. That’s if you haven’t already looked there. I’d like to know if you have or not, so I can think of some more things for you.

I will tell you there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Man you are. But you are a Man with a wife who has one very big problem that’s not her doing.

First thing on my mind is have you looked into alternative medicine?

Blessings to you DG.

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

Thanks again Bob.

She's rebelling against life. Is now an agnostic - which is fine - but it's "new" - I guess as a result of her condition. She spent a year being depressed - which I totally understand. Then came attention from men on the internet - old "male" friends from high school. It's all downhill from there.

The Fibro complicates things - but lying isn't a symptom of Fibro. 

I recently posted my story on a Fibro board. Most people there tend to rally AROUND their family - especially if they have a supportive spouse. They can often no longer work, but the people who responded to me still took great pride in doing what they could at home and continued to be the best parent they could be.

My mom suffered from major depression while I was growing up. She didn't do a lot of things, the house wasn't nice and neat - but I never doubted that she loved me. My wife now suffers from something similar, but she she just seems angry and bitter. Amazing how much our 11 year old has picked up on how much Mom has changed.

I think she's a very, very unhappy person. I've tried to be supportive - but I can only do so much - especially while I'm trying to make the kids whole - make up for her lack of involvement.

She needs to find her own happiness. Maybe it won't be with me - but I also don't think it will be found on Facebook or on her iPhone with some guy(s) who just want to "chat." No future there. Just going for attention to make her feel good now.

She's taking some "supplements", but ignoring other instructions from her doctor - she doesn't exercise, doesn't avoid dairy - she's been encouraged to meditate but she thinks it seems stupid; we bought a hot tub last year - she was barely using it before the separation - still has access now - locks aren't changed - but still rarely uses it;

Like I said - fascinating stuff. Just wish so much of didn't hit so close to home.


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## Deejo

What I consistently find vexing is that so much of the sh!t revolves around no sense whatsoever. Calling it nonsense is being generous. It's anti-sense.


----------



## AFEH

NG,
Maybe she believes God has condemned her so she no longer believes in Him? I’ve seen it happen for other reasons. A devoutly religious friend became agnostic because his daughter died. “How could He let that happen”. I’m not an “organised religion” person, I’m eclectic, take bits from here and there. Just trying to walk in your wife’s shoes for a bit.

Are you currently viewing your wife’s behaviour as a mixture of your wife’s medical condition and the “arc”?

The ETJ in your wife’s profile indicates dominance, unusual for a woman, it’s typically a man’s type of dominance. Maybe that’s why she is responding differently to other women who have the same medical condition.

She will fight her condition NG in ways you will not understand. I was going to say she will become extreme and probably destructive, but she already has.

Have you had psychotherapy? You need solace.

Bob






nice777guy said:


> Thanks again Bob.
> 
> She's rebelling against life. Is now an agnostic - which is fine - but it's "new" - I guess as a result of her condition. She spent a year being depressed - which I totally understand. Then came attention from men on the internet - old "male" friends from high school. It's all downhill from there.
> 
> The Fibro complicates things - but lying isn't a symptom of Fibro.
> 
> I recently posted my story on a Fibro board. Most people there tend to rally AROUND their family - especially if they have a supportive spouse. They can often no longer work, but the people who responded to me still took great pride in doing what they could at home and continued to be the best parent they could be.
> 
> My mom suffered from major depression while I was growing up. She didn't do a lot of things, the house wasn't nice and neat - but I never doubted that she loved me. My wife now suffers from something similar, but she she just seems angry and bitter. Amazing how much our 11 year old has picked up on how much Mom has changed.
> 
> I think she's a very, very unhappy person. I've tried to be supportive - but I can only do so much - especially while I'm trying to make the kids whole - make up for her lack of involvement.
> 
> She needs to find her own happiness. Maybe it won't be with me - but I also don't think it will be found on Facebook or on her iPhone with some guy(s) who just want to "chat." No future there. Just going for attention to make her feel good now.
> 
> She's taking some "supplements", but ignoring other instructions from her doctor - she doesn't exercise, doesn't avoid dairy - she's been encouraged to meditate but she thinks it seems stupid; we bought a hot tub last year - she was barely using it before the separation - still has access now - locks aren't changed - but still rarely uses it;
> 
> Like I said - fascinating stuff. Just wish so much of didn't hit so close to home.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> What I consistently find vexing is that so much of the sh!t revolves around no sense whatsoever. Calling it nonsense is being generous. It's anti-sense.


And yet here we sit, looking for patterns!!!

:scratchhead:


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## nice777guy

Bob - marriage counseling has been me by myself about half of the time, but it's still always about HER.

To be totally honest, there are very few moments that I'm not thinking of what I can do to get her back. So even when I do end up alone in therapy - by design, or because my wife doesn't wish to go - I still focus on HER.

Have done therapy before - after my mother passed away. She was 53 - I was 25. I was angry at the world but didn't recognize it. Did some again around 30 - wife went through some post-partum issues or "something" after our 2nd was born. After a while it became hard for me to cope as well.

Nursing school was to be the cure for a lot of things in her life. Its something she was really looking forward to doing, and that she was really good at.


----------



## AFEH

Deejo said:


> What I consistently find vexing is that so much of the sh!t revolves around no sense whatsoever. Calling it nonsense is being generous. It's anti-sense.


The greatest philosophers over the history of the world, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, St Aquinas and others all more or less asked the same question “What is love?”.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Bob - marriage counseling has been me by myself about half of the time, but it's still always about HER.
> .


Yup NG. I know. It's called passion. You've bundles of it.

What can I say, what can I communicate? Think on life by yourself maybe. It's called Individuation. But it's easy for me. My children are no longer dependent. I'm free from the woman I loved so deeply.

Monastery? I too thought of those places and really wanted to go there. Thailand, knock on the door and ask can I come in?

Make a plan to go into a monastery for a while? Stone village churches in England’s villages helped me out big time. Reckon you need to understand and reconnect with your spirit and your soul.

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

The Monastery idea - kind of kidding - mostly to get away from women.

I have seen before that you've mentioned you practice Buddhism. I do think that reconnecting with my church community would be a decent idea.


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## Deejo

You don't need to get away from women. You just need to know how to wrangle the critters. Otherwise ... as you may have noticed, they get a might 'ornery.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> The Monastery idea - kind of kidding - mostly to get away from women.
> 
> I have seen before that you've mentioned you practice Buddhism. I do think that reconnecting with my church community would be a decent idea.


NG if that's what your soul's telling you go for it.

Bob


----------



## Deejo

Cripes ... I'm at work and opened up Rhapsody to listen to music. Stbx apparently still has access via her computer - I can see the 'Recent Tracks'
About 24 sad love songs. And no, she is no where near tech savvy or insightful enough to believe that I would see them. Hell she doesn't even know that it shows a list of what has been played.

She doesn't get a free pass for all the sh!t. But I also know she isn't enjoying any of this. Just not strong enough to actually want to change it.

One of the songs? "Strong Enough" by Sheryl Crow. Always liked that song. Very telling - and once again, points exactly in the direction that our 20+ year married men are talking about.


----------



## Deejo

AFEH said:


> Bollocks


Agreed.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Cripes ... I'm at work and opened up Rhapsody to listen to music. Stbx apparently still has access via her computer - I can see the 'Recent Tracks'
> About 24 sad love songs. And no, she is no where near tech savvy or insightful enough to believe that I would see them. Hell she doesn't even know that it shows a list of what has been played.
> 
> She doesn't get a free pass for all the sh!t. But I also know she isn't enjoying any of this. Just not strong enough to actually want to change it.
> 
> One of the songs? "Strong Enough" by Sheryl Crow. Always liked that song. Very telling - and once again, points exactly in the direction that our 20+ year married men are talking about.


That's gotta mess with your head, eh? Sorry...

That accidental stuff is lousy - because its honest.


----------



## MEM2020

BBW,
This post is beautiful - it describes the world that my W and I inhabit. A world we have created together. 





BigBadWolf said:


> My opinion, sometimes it is easy to not see the forrest for the trees in this type of discussion. As to what makes one relationship work, and another fail, and to start on personality types and applied psychology, I cannot get on that boat because I simply don't subscribe to it in this scenario.
> 
> Why? Because to me it is like trying to fix a flat tire by musing quantum physics.
> 
> I could list a hundred ways my wife is very different from me, and a hundred ways my wife is just like me. And I guess that would be interesting to some, maybe not.
> 
> In many aspects of our relationship, I have been happy to allow my wife to make decisions, pursue her happiness, engage in hobbies and even to pursue her career as she has ever wanted. In all that, we have discovered together that her greatest desire is to be a SAHM and devote herself to management of the household, including the management of our finances.
> 
> This also would include trip and vacation planning, and coordination of activities involving our children and that even includes starting several groups and organizations based around my children's interests and activities.
> 
> While myself, I am more singlarly focused and tenacioius to whatefver particular goal I would have in mind. So in my career, with her taken care of business at home and the children, I have been able to focus and put myself in the position of a career (not meaning to give too much personal information) in a fortune 500 company that I enjoy, gives me a very flexible schedule, and allows us the income for her to have spent virtually all of our children's years growing up with their mother at home.
> 
> So while my wife is extremely detail oriented, and good at multitasking, I am much more comfortable and creative in regards to establishing, let's say, a particular vision or desired result, and laying a plan to accomplishing the tasks or eliminating the obstacles in order to reach that result.
> 
> Not that I am sure this is helpful, but maybe to answer your quetsions, yes in most ways looking at this my wife and I "fit" together most wonderfuly.
> 
> But know also in these things, even as I have said in other threads, even with this rose colored scenario that my wife and I "fit", there was still the same lack of sex after the kids were born leading to the spiral of resentment that I faced like so so so many other men.
> 
> When things turned around, and this is just this simple and basic and maybe even to make so many behavior psychologist groan, is when I focused on why the sex was becoming less and less frequent.
> 
> 
> 
> And this is just where I will say I disagree 100 percent.
> 
> As compatible as my wife and myself were, and as much as she is sexy and attractive and I am not shabby myself and a good provider and loving father, there was not much sex and to be very honest I was not a happy man.
> 
> Nor it seems, was my wife a happy woman.
> 
> Only now to speak of these things in hindsight, to me it was so easy and obvious.
> 
> But in the time of happening, a great mystery and what seems was just a sad fact of life, or of just getting old, or any such things as would be talking about on this forum as falling out of love.
> 
> So as I spoke earlier, did I focus on the lack of sex, and so I started to study what I was like before, as a young man with sex plentiful.
> 
> And also did I study even to the minute details, how did I feel when I saw my wife, or hear her coming into the room.
> 
> Did I feel as I did when we were young and discovering each other?
> 
> No, often I either felt not much, or worse, felt dread, as if to wonder what she would need, or be complaining about, or to start talking about something to interupt my reading or something.
> 
> So this is easy to see now, I had a mountain of resentment to her, shadowing every second that we were togother, so big and so everpresent. So I understand now how insidious resentment is in relationships, how it creeps in little by little but unless addressed it will never go away.
> 
> And so I focused on the resentment, and to put that in perspective simply meant that no longer would I hold back my feelings, regardless to keep the peace or make my wife angry or mad or sad or want to leave or anything.
> 
> So when my resolve to kill the resentment was finally greater than my resolve to appease my wife, that is when things changed for our relationship, very quickly, very dramatic as almost a hurricane upheaving the ocean over the seashore!
> 
> In all these things, such as I typed earlier, when I finally stopped appeasement to my wife in all areas, and instead layed out my desires and requirments and standing up for myself in all areas, I will say this again, my wife's reaction blew me away.
> 
> She was if seeing me again for the first time, as the look I remember when we were dating. Instead of her getting angry, she was apologizing, and the million little things, starting to offer me cold drinks when I was working in the yard, or hot coffee in the morning before I left for work. See these things I did not even mention, or ask for, yet so many things I noticed, did not the most important thing occur, and that our sex life went from not so much to through the roof. And I mean in the forms of her begging me to let her do this or that for me, and even in those times I wanted to maybe give her a break, no no no, did she make sure that if I did not pursue her that she would make sure she was pursued one way or the other.
> 
> It was as if she was a new woman, unleashed very much with fury and lust.
> 
> And so this is simply this, nothing more or less, she was doing this from her own desire to submit to my dominance that I was finally not witholding from showing her, and had been witholding for years and years.
> 
> And know this next part is hard to put into words, maybe it is helpful or not.
> 
> But during all this, and in my focusing on the effects of dominance and sexuallity, and maybe in my excitement to share with my wife, as she is very much my favorite person and best friend, would I be very enthusiastic to discuss with her the female reaction to dominance, to put these behaviors into words and maybe discuss with her on the intellectual and academic and logical pieces of all this incredible change to our relationship.
> 
> She would have none of it. I mean she would just show no interest and made it clear that, well, whatever was going on needed to be kept at least as a mystery to her. And this is a woman that at a drop of the hat will enjoy discussing einstein or hawking or sagan!
> 
> And a few times I have tried to explore her logical and intellectual opinion on how our sex life was so spontaneous and alive as if a switch was thrown, or maybe more telling, how by her own hinting and reactions, that our physical encounters would get often very aggressive and dark and hinting of violence and then the spankings and even other dark dark dark things that I would not mention in words, and again and again, her reactoin was at the very worst merely confusion, but mostly blissfully ecstatic, that the more aggresive and dominant I got, then the more her orgasms would come freely and frequent and even her fantasies and desires would she be able to show me.
> 
> Yet to speak of these things in words to her in logic, not effective.
> 
> Yet to say something aggresive, or give a strong look, would she then be sure to express her submission, or to take my hand and place it between her thighs to show me the reaction of these mere actions on my part were producing a very strong and physical reaction to her womanly places.
> 
> So what is her message, and yes, her leadership communicating to me? What I always say on this board, in matters of sexual attraction actions and behavior are what matter, actions speak louder than words.
> 
> And this, I am only typing all this to make this point, to me this reaction is nothing short of a miracle. And there is nothing on this world that to me would be a motivating to make our relationsihp last and last, for me to anything for my wife, than to honor her and please her and give my life for her, for these things that she has given me, which is her submission and her body and her adoration.
> 
> Sexual fullfillment IS the motivation and bliss for long term relationsihps.
> 
> And this is not caused by being good friends, or liking the same hobbies, or being a personallity type match, it is caused by something much older and deeper and primal than all this.
> 
> For when a man is a man to his woman, and his woman is a woman to him, this is the structure of sexual attraction.
> 
> And sexual attraction to each the good man and the woman is the *motivation *and unleashing to spur each other to be both creative for each other and protective of each other.
> 
> Nothing else is as the powerful motivator than sexual attraction, for we are sexual beings as our greatest common denominator.
> 
> I hope this is beneficial.


----------



## MEM2020

Deejo,
I have a label for how people are perceived when they consistently and unconditionally "give" a lot more love than they get (I call this over loving your partner). The label is: inferior

They may NOT be inferior in any way. In fact objectively the opposite is often true. But ultimately the message their partner receives is "I am not worthy - this is how I compensate". And if your partner consistently gets the message that you don't deserve them, you are lost. It may take 5 or 10 years - but it is like acid eventually it eats away the relationship from the inside out. 

And I believe most sparky women are wired to "fitness test" us men. Fail a enough tests and they try the ultimate test for healthy couples: demanding celibacy. Fail that test and they are gone - checked out. It may take a long time for them to physically cheat or leave. But a healthy guy in his 30's/40's/50's who tolerates a year of sexlessness has almost certainly presided over the permanent death of his marriage. 



nice777guy said:


> Wow guys. Thanks for sharing. Still trying to interpret how all of this applies to me - and if any of this is truly universal or not. Thank you both - BBW and Deejo - for the depth and honesty.
> 
> Bob - sometimes I think I understand what has happened. My wife went to nursing school, got her degree, and was then diagnosed with Fibro and Chronic Fatigue syndrome. So, where she used to have big plans, she now has this big gaping hole that she's trying to fill with attention and validation from other men. I became the primary parent to our kids while she was in nursing school. She seems to be not only pushing me away, but them as well.
> 
> In my case, I don't believe that "we" can talk about reconciliation until "she" has found something healthy to fill that hole up with.
> 
> Maybe the Fibro and illness just expediated the "arc" that the article in Deejo's original post refers to. Maybe she would have been having affairs with Doctors in 3-5 years had she not been sent home sick.
> 
> The question's I'm trying to answer are more about myself at this point. Why do I continue to hang onto such a toxic relationship? Don't think its hope any more - so it must be fear. Just what am I afraid of losing?
> 
> Then - if I can get past those questions and figure myself out - then maybe I'll be ready to move on and apply some of the things I've learned on this board to a new, healthy relationship. Or I'll join a monastery.
> 
> It also helps me to stand my ground in my current emotional tug-of-war. There really are days - fewer and farther between - where I think I should just lay down and assume the roll of family doormat. But I know it wouldn't last - I'd be miserable - and be setting a horrible example for my young girls.
> 
> Also - if you're still with me - this stuff is just fascinating. I think that's why people like MEM and BBW come here and try to use their stories to help other people.


----------



## Deejo

I don't disagree. You actually used a kinder term than what I labeled it as in my own case months ago. The label I gave it was: weakness

Thought I was proving something by hanging in there and taking it - proving that my love was strong and worthwhile. 

But you are right, the message the recipient gets is; your love is desperate and cheap. You don't put a high value on it, so neither will they.



MEM11363 said:


> Deejo,
> I have a label for how people are perceived when they consistently and unconditionally "give" a lot more love than they get (I call this over loving your partner). The label is: inferior
> 
> They may NOT be inferior in any way. In fact objectively the opposite is often true. But ultimately the message their partner receives is "I am not worthy - this is how I compensate". And if your partner consistently gets the message that you don't deserve them, you are lost. It may take 5 or 10 years - but it is like acid eventually it eats away the relationship from the inside out.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> your love is desperate and cheap. You don't put a high value on it, so neither will they.


So - why do they so often move on to idiots? Why do they "affair down?" Isn't this often a problem with THEIR self esteem? But you claim THEY are testing US?

Most cases - I'm not picturing some confident, strong woman walking out the door on a man who is groveling. I'm picturing a weak, insecure woman who is sneaking around, living a secret life that she doesn't reveal to ANYONE because somewhere inside she knows its WRONG and a worse deal than what she has going on now.

WE see OURSELVES as weak - or inferior - maybe because we are the only ones doing any real self examination. MY wife hasn't looked inside herself. I can - on average - account for about 5 hours of her normal day. If she sleeps for 10, she still has NINE hours left for exercise, reading, yoga, whatever...if she's doing anything positive with her time then I can't tell.

Me - I have about 2 hours a day that aren't accounted for - the 2 hours after my kids are in bed. Yet it's ME who should be doing all of this self work and introspection?


----------



## MEM2020

NG,
I have a question for you. How long did you allow your W to text while you were with her "one on one" before you said "stop that or I am going to get up and leave?" Way too long I think. Being kind and patient is necessary. Except when you are being blatantly mistreated. I am very relaxed about how MUCH time my W wants to spend with me. But one on one - unless it is a business call (those are fine) I expect to be given precedence. Otherwise I am happy to go do something else either solo or with a friend. 

I am not inclined to be drawn into a discussion about our women and their insecurities. Or their terrible post marital taste in men. I am talking about US here and only us. We can only change US. As for the losers they spend time with - imagine how much they would love US - given all our good qualities if we simply blended in some of that edgy/alpha stuff the losers have. 

Humor me in a brief story. I truly believe the ideal long term blend is 90/10 beta/alpha. You just need to know when to be one vs the other. Last night was pure beta. Hopefully skillful, funny beta. 

Last night I came home and W was upset. Not angry. Hurt. She was hurt by a clumsy, stupid thing I said yesterday morning. It wasn't mean. And it sure as hell wasn't deliberate. But that doesn't really matter. What mattered was it was fresh and she was in pain. She was feeling sad - not angry. So she is in the shower and she briefly mentions the aforementioned clumsy comment. For context - she turns 48 in a week and is feeling paranoid about age, attractiveness etc. And my comment fed into that. 

So this was my read:
- She is in a "high love" phase for me now and has been for the last 4-6 months
- She was feeling insecure
- I amplified it by accident

So I got down on one knee right outside the shower door, put my hands together (supplicant posture) and humbly apologized. 

She was only partly mollified. 

I switched to my left knee and remarked that it might be more effective if I repeated the process from that angle what with me being a southpaw. 

She was now mostly better. 

I then commented that as I am partly ambidextrous perhaps both knees would make the point fully. So there I am - fully kneeling - hands together and I softly say "I love you and I want you and my knees are starting to throb"

And that was that. Fully resolved with her smiling and saying "really?" And me asking "do you want me to come in there and prove it standing up or would you prefer to towel off and try a horizontal session on the mattress?"

And that is simply emotional symmetry - she loves a LOT - I love a lot back. 




nice777guy said:


> So - why do they so often move on to idiots? Why do they "affair down?" Isn't this often a problem with THEIR self esteem? But you claim THEY are testing US?
> 
> Most cases - I'm not picturing some confident, strong woman walking out the door on a man who is groveling. I'm picturing a weak, insecure woman who is sneaking around, living a secret life that she doesn't reveal to ANYONE because somewhere inside she knows its WRONG and a worse deal than what she has going on now.
> 
> WE see OURSELVES as weak - or inferior - maybe because we are the only ones doing any real self examination. MY wife hasn't looked inside herself. I can - on average - account for about 5 hours of her normal day. If she sleeps for 10, she still has NINE hours left for exercise, reading, yoga, whatever...
> 
> Me - I have about 2 hours a day that aren't accounted for - the 2 hours after my kids are in bed. Yet it's ME who should be doing all of this self work and introspection?


----------



## nice777guy

MEM - I truly believe an initial ultimatum would have been the end. Probably would have been a good thing looking back - had it ended quickly.

And if she had stopped then - I truly think it would have just re-surfaced.

Not trying to make excuses. I have things to improve in my life - and I'll admit that I'm struggling to make those improvements.

Typed a lot more and erased. I'm drained. Wife showed us her new tattoo last night and my oldest daughter - only 11 - started calling her out on all kinds of **** - and was mostly dead on - about how much Mom has changed.

Just want to thank you guys again for all of the honesty and the depth of the posts on this thread. In my little world, guys - even on the net - don't normally open up like that. Was very helpful. Thank you all.


----------



## MEM2020

NG,
I just want to split hairs for a moment. If I didn't suspect an EA - I wouldn't have said "you have to stop texting - full stop it must end". I would have said "when you start texting when we are one on one I am going to get up and leave - because it is totally disrespectful and I would not do it to you"

If she pulled that in a restaurant AFTER being warned - I would get up and go sit in the car until she was done. I always have MY phone and frankly almost always have a good book in the car - so I could read. That type response sends a message as to OUR boundaries. 

The EA stuff - I have no answer for you once things reach that point. Just trying to make the point that I do not go straight to nuclear war. I don't yell and scream (well not anymore) I just turn the emotional air conditioner on full blast when treated badly. And leave it on.





nice777guy said:


> MEM - I truly believe an initial ultimatum would have been the end. Probably would have been a good thing looking back - had it ended quickly.
> 
> And if she had stopped then - I truly think it would have just re-surfaced.
> 
> Not trying to make excuses. I have things to improve in my life - and I'll admit that I'm struggling to make those improvements.
> 
> Typed a lot more and erased. I'm drained. Wife showed us her new tattoo last night and my oldest daughter - only 11 - started calling her out on all kinds of **** - and was mostly dead on - about how much Mom has changed.
> 
> Just want to thank you guys again for all of the honesty and the depth of the posts on this thread. In my little world, guys - even on the net - don't normally open up like that. Was very helpful. Thank you all.


----------



## nice777guy

MEM - not disagreeing at all - just saying I'm not there yet.

When I was first told on this site to "Man Up" - that night I just got stupid and went all caveman - over the phone. Wife hung up. Her strategy was MUCH more effective than mine that evening.

That night I "failed" because I didn't have control of the situation - picked the wrong environment (the phone) - and didn't really have a strategy (yell).

Thanks again for the advice and perspective.


----------



## Deejo

MEM11363 said:


> So this was my read:
> - She is in a "high love" phase for me now and has been for the last 4-6 months
> - She was feeling insecure
> - I amplified it by accident
> 
> So I got down on one knee right outside the shower door, put my hands together (supplicant posture) and humbly apologized.
> 
> She was only partly mollified.
> 
> I switched to my left knee and remarked that it might be more effective if I repeated the process from that angle what with me being a southpaw.
> 
> She was now mostly better.
> 
> I then commented that as I am partly ambidextrous perhaps both knees would make the point fully. So there I am - fully kneeling - hands together and I softly say "I love you and I want you and my knees are starting to throb"
> 
> And that was that. Fully resolved with her smiling and saying "really?" And me asking "do you want me to come in there and prove it standing up or would you prefer to towel off and try a horizontal session on the mattress?"
> 
> And that is simply emotional symmetry - she loves a LOT - I love a lot back.


Emotional symmetry is a wonderful term. A nice counter-balance to Over Loving. We didn't have it. 

I played your scenario in my head, MEM. What is telling is what you indicate as your 'read'. I am presuming that if your read indicated that she would tell you to stick your apology up your a$$, you would not have offered it. At least you may not have offered it at that time is my point.

Or, based on your awareness of the space she was in, did you wait to offer it at such a time and place as to maximize the opportunity for her to accept, and attach sex to it?

Old me would have over apologized the moment I was aware that I had harmed her.

Now, I would give some time for anger, or hurt, and offer an apology when it is apparent she is most receptive, as opposed to using my feelings of guilt or sorrow as the benchmark.

For the record, I have no delusions about my marriage being over. It needs to be over. It makes us both sad that it needs to be over. That's pretty much it.

And on that note, I have a date tomorrow.


----------



## MEM2020

1. If she was going to tell me to stick my apology up my ... I would have made it - and then walked away when she was nasty about it. She very rarely reacts that way to a genuine apology.
2. I have never tried to apologize for a mis-step or reconcile after a fight - to get laid. Never. 




Deejo said:


> Emotional symmetry is a wonderful term. A nice counter-balance to Over Loving. We didn't have it.
> 
> I played your scenario in my head, MEM. What is telling is what you indicate as your 'read'. I am presuming that if your read indicated that she would tell you to stick your apology up your a$$, you would not have offered it. At least you may not have offered it at that time is my point.
> 
> Or, based on your awareness of the space she was in, did you wait to offer it at such a time and place as to maximize the opportunity for her to accept, and attach sex to it?
> 
> Old me would have over apologized the moment I was aware that I had harmed her.
> 
> Now, I would give some time for anger, or hurt, and offer an apology when it is apparent she is most receptive, as opposed to using my feelings of guilt or sorrow as the benchmark.
> 
> For the record, I have no delusions about my marriage being over. It needs to be over. It makes us both sad that it needs to be over. That's pretty much it.
> 
> And on that note, I have a date tomorrow.


----------



## Deejo

breeze said:


> MEM, that is... inspiring.
> 
> An apology that is heartfelt, that is in no way given grudgingly, without excuses attached, is a powerful thing. It doesn't matter how angry she is, how hurt she is, it will get through. If it isn't accepted the first time, then try again, and again.
> 
> "I'm sorry I hurt you baby". That's all it takes.
> 
> There's no right or wrong time. The longer you wait, the worse it gets.
> 
> All a man has to do is acknowledge that his actions have hurt his partners feelings. Whether he meant them to or not, whether she misunderstood what he said or did, it doesn't matter, the hurt is there. Just acknowledge it, and telling her you're sorry means you don't like that she's hurt. It shows you love her.


Yup. That sure is what the marketing material says. I just don't believe everything I read.

The setting you describe, also presumes 'emotional symmetry'. Which quite simply is often not the case.

So when MEM steps up, apologizes, demonstrating his love and they both get the happy ending, it's a beautiful thing.

If NiceGuy steps up, apologizes , demonstrating his love and his wife rolls her eyes and goes back to chatting on Face Book he is a sucker, or doing it wrong.

Both men are being emotionally honest, with drastically different results. MEM's wife loves and respects him, NG's wife doesn't know what the hell she wants, despite having a husband that loves and respects her. 

Which is exactly why I started this thread. There are both men and women in the world that don't know what the hell they want and can't get it right even when you hand them the answers.

I have done plenty of self introspection, and time on the couch. So have plenty of other men here. The stark reality is that the emotional dynamic and symmetry that both MEM and BBW describe is rare - over the long term. Sadly, rare. I wish it wasn't. It is why I value their input. I don't want them to stop giving their input. But I don't for a moment believe that if every male on the planet started following the mechanics and patterns they describe, that every woman would in turn become devoted, committed, loving, horny, spouses and partners.

It still comes down to the individual. And in any intimate relationship you have two of those.

And like we consistently talk about, all you can do is be true to yourself and emotionally honest. As a result, your partner either grows with you in a synergistic manner, or in being true to, and emotionally honest with themselves, decide that they need to move on. Their decision to abandon the relationship either physically or mentally is not necessarily the responsibility or fault of the other partner. Somebody is starting an affair every 300 nanoseconds because for whatever reason, they are no longer attracted to, or invested in, their partner. 

If you listen to the radio show that I linked to, one of the women, Sandra, followed her husband's lead - he pressed for marriage, he pressed for children, she was hesitant, but obliged - because she loved him. He is a symphonic musician, on the road 20 weeks a year. As time wore on (20 years), Sandra resented the entire arrangement - all the way back to feeling that she was coerced into marriage and children. She felt abandoned, stuck, and emotionally empty. So? She cheated. Guess you could say she hit her ceiling of emotional asymmetry. 

I have a female friend and we talk about this stuff quite often. She left her husband because she felt sexually abandoned. He was addicted to pornography - child pornography. 

She in turn lamented to me about being out with a group of girlfriends and listening to them joke and laugh about how they ALL withheld sex from, and shut down their husbands - or occasionally would throw them a bone when they want something.

I recognize that the scope of our discussion is about being a 'Better Man' in the pursuit of maintaining that emotional symmetry (I'm telling you MEM, I'm gonna use that all the time now)

But I also recognize that the scope of why marriages fail is much, much, larger than what the guy is or isn't doing. What the girl is or isn't doing comes into the equation as well.


----------



## nice777guy

But then for reasons I'm still exploring, my wife doesn't respect me. At least she doesn't now.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Yet it's ME who should be doing all of this self work and introspection?



Just depends what the self work and introspection results in. I did tons of that stuff, embarrassed to admit how much and for how long.

Nothing worked until I set my boundaries and told my wife behaviour that I would no longer tolerate.

But I’d let it get to the point where I’d become truly intolerant and set my boundaries. Brick wall you don’t go there stuff, would have survived a hit by a nuclear bomb. It was my wife who took the decision not to work on our problems and it was my wife who left me.

We’re now separate for 10 months. I’m in a far better place emotionally and life style wise than my wife is. I will look after her with the divorce and settlement, I owe her a lot from our 42 years together. But some things in life truly are intolerable.

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

Wheels still churning...

In MEM's example, he did something wrong. He's the one making amends. That's the easier problem to deal with. Doesn't address when the other person won't make amends or apologize.

Have to admit that I haven't felt much need to apologize lately. I used to apologize more often - to keep the peace. Now - only when I know I've done something that was out of character, disrespectful, unnecessary, etc.

I'm also not convinced that my wife is "stable" right now.

I also look at other threads around here - people following AC and Pete's advice - or Turnera's - and things still aren't working out. The wayward spouse would sooner live in a pit than admit any wrong-doing.

Asked AC about this - and her answer was that their methods give people the best chance to work things out. Almost seems like once a spouse has checked out, the best odds are still pretty low. The other part is their methods help you to stand up, protect yourself, and ready yourself for a life without the other person. That's probably the bigger benefit for most people who take their advice and truly use it.

Niceguy here has learned some things - that asking nicely, or even yelling - don't get the job done. Going to post a link to a thread I wrote awhile back - not because of what I wrote - but something Amp wrote. Thought it was brilliant - still do.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> But then for reasons I'm still exploring, my wife doesn't respect me. At least she doesn't now.


I'm sorry if you feel like I'm on your case NG.

How many boundaries have you set?

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

Written by Amplexor in the following thread on 2/17/2010.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/11417-may-i-have-floor-please.html

"After I first discovered the EA and tried to "fix it all" at once I saw that my efforts were in fact driving my wife further away. I also knew that had I "manned up" and delivered a hard assed ultimatum or threatened to expose the relationship we would have never gotten out of the gate. She was already at the breaking point and most certainly would have walked. That is why patience is in my signature line as it had as important an impact on us as the other three words. Did I do everything right to get where we are today, certainly not, but I wouldn't change a thing based on our results. There were times when I'm sure I was too tentative and a stronger approach would have been what she was looking for. But I set my boundaries when I had to and she respected that. There is no formula in the recovery of the marriage and advice given here is just that, advice. You have to assimilate it, digest it and form it into the response you feel best for your situation. I've been a professional sales person in the technology industry for more than 25 years. My sales cycles run anywhere from 3 months to 2 years and while a very emotional process I approached my marriage recovery from a business perspective. There were advances, losses, barriers and strategy changes involved all the way through, just like a sales cycle. And also, just like a sales cycle, there where times when pulling out my alpha persona was not the best course of action to "close the deal". Rather by being patient, shutting up and just listening, new understandings and options presented themselves. Follow your instincts sir." - Amplexor


----------



## nice777guy

Bob - must admit I have trouble telling a boundary from my ass. The trick is to figure out reasonable consequences.

MEM gave the example of going to the car on a date. Me - at this point - no longer ask the wife out on dates. She's mentioned it - that I'm not living up to my part of the separation. But I've tried to make it clear - no dating while this texting nonsense continues.

Leaving the room when she starts doing things isn't real effective. Seems she doesn't really care.

And now I'm questioning if I would even want her back if she STOPPED all of this nonsense. I don't really know. Why give an ultimatum to someone to "STOP AND COME HOME" when you just aren't sure you want them there.

Ideally, the nonsense stops, she proves to me that its stopped - and we work from there and try to move forward.

One thing I have done - didn't leave the house and the kids stayed with me. Custody talk has come up - and it upsets my wife VERY much. To me, this is a boundary issue. "Mom-up" or you aren't getting the kids. Judges favor status quo, and "possession" is 9/10s of the law. I feel good about my chances. Not doing it out of spite, or to win. But because I feel I'm their best option. Unless she makes some major changes - that's a line in the sand that will not be moved. And I can tell how nervous it makes her. She gets very worked up about it - and I calmly respond that I'm not discussing custody with someone who I'm not even divorcing yet. Drives her crazy. 

Nothing else I do really effects her much. Yet in this case - talking about custody - by saying very little and exuding confidence, it scares the hell out of her. 

It puzzles me though, because she truly doesn't seem to value them now. Could be one of two things:
1) Custody = child support
2) the shame of being a divorced Mom who doesn't work and doesn't have custody of her kids


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Written by Amplexor in the following thread on 2/17/2010.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/11417-may-i-have-floor-please.html
> 
> "After I first discovered the EA and tried to "fix it all" at once I saw that my efforts were in fact driving my wife further away. I also knew that had I "manned up" and delivered a hard assed ultimatum or threatened to expose the relationship we would have never gotten out of the gate. She was already at the breaking point and most certainly would have walked. That is why patience is in my signature line as it had as important an impact on us as the other three words. Did I do everything right to get where we are today, certainly not, but I wouldn't change a thing based on our results. There were times when I'm sure I was too tentative and a stronger approach would have been what she was looking for. But I set my boundaries when I had to and she respected that. There is no formula in the recovery of the marriage and advice given here is just that, advice. You have to assimilate it, digest it and form it into the response you feel best for your situation. I've been a professional sales person in the technology industry for more than 25 years. My sales cycles run anywhere from 3 months to 2 years and while a very emotional process I approached my marriage recovery from a business perspective. There were advances, losses, barriers and strategy changes involved all the way through, just like a sales cycle. And also, just like a sales cycle, there where times when pulling out my alpha persona was not the best course of action to "close the deal". Rather by being patient, shutting up and just listening, new understandings and options presented themselves. Follow your instincts sir." - Amplexor



I agree with the above. Key for me is ......

*"But I set my boundaries when I had to and she respected that".*


Boundaries = Intolerance = Respect for the Man

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

Sorry if it feels I'm hi-jacking here - but another thing about Amp's writing is that he's actually lived through what most of us here are dealing with. That makes his writing - which he doesn't do enough of - more compelling than someone who simply says "Man-Up".


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Bob - must admit I have trouble telling a boundary from my ass. The trick is to figure out reasonable consequences.



For a lot of us personal boundaries are a new thing.

A lot of us think patience, tolerance, compassion, understanding, forgiveness, empathy etc. etc. etc. is the way to be. We think those things make us a good guy, a good husband and a good father. In fact some of us think we should develop these “attributes” on our journey through life, that they are a part of the maturing process. We may even think they make us a humanist and may bring to us some wisdom about life. And in my mind all of that is true.

But along this journey of life we don’t look out for ourselves in that we don’t take care of our emotions in that we have no defences against abuse from our spouse. At some stage in our life we find we are wide open to the abusive behaviour of our spouse. But it’s worse than that. We have enabled that abuse to continue and grow in intensity by developing what we’ve thought of humanistic behaviour and being a nice guy. And we did that by having an endless supply of patience tolerance, empathy etc. etc. etc.

But guess what? One day we find we don’t have an endless supply of all the “nice guy” attributes. We run out of those things and are driven to intolerance and build our personal boundaries.

You still don’t understand personal boundaries. Have you read http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/14963-boundaries-men.html

Bob


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Sorry if it feels I'm hi-jacking here - but another thing about Amp's writing is that he's actually lived through what most of us here are dealing with. That makes his writing - which he doesn't do enough of - more compelling than someone who simply says "Man-Up".


Manning up is setting your boundaries. You will feel it when you do it.

Think of yourself as a child, a child that's being abused. The way you're looking at things you're just rolling over. "If I'm patient, tolerant, understanding, please her etc. etc. she will not abuse me anymore". Yeh righto.

A child cannot defend themselves from further abuse. You are not a child you are a Man, but a Man without emotional boundaries. Sure most of us know how to defend ourselves physically from physical abuse, that comes natural and easy to a Man. Emotional control and emotional abuse? A lot of us haven't a clue.

You are being emotionally abused. Forget about the Whats, Whys and Wherefores. The medical conditions and all that stuff. Forget that. You have to stop the emotional abuse and you do that with boundaries.

Believe me. When you do it you will see one heck of a change in your wife’s behaviour towards you.

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

I know what's right and what's wrong.

Where I struggle is in how to ENFORCE the boundaries.

In the example - the guy tries to kidnap the daughter - you can't simply say "That's not acceptable - let her go". You need a plan - otherwise you look like a fool.

So - now when my wife starts playing with her phone too much, I'll politely ask her once what she's doing. Almost never an answer. Then - if possible - I walk away. Now, if I throw a fit, I know I lose even more respect. But I don't see where my calmly walking away is making much of a difference.

Have been reading No More Mister Nice Guy - read about 15 pages yesterday. Still in the "how we got into this mess" phase of the book - but it makes sense.


----------



## AFEH

What does "playing with her phone too much" mean? What's she doing that's playing with the phone?

Bob


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Bob - must admit I have trouble telling a boundary from my ass. The trick is to figure out reasonable consequences.
> 
> MEM gave the example of going to the car on a date. Me - at this point - no longer ask the wife out on dates. She's mentioned it - that I'm not living up to my part of the separation. But I've tried to make it clear - no dating while this texting nonsense continues.


That sir, is a boundary. And one you have apparently stuck to.



> Leaving the room when she starts doing things isn't real effective. Seems she doesn't really care.


Doesn't matter at this point what she thinks or cares. Maybe you need to step it up. Leave, or tell her she needs to leave if whatever message that comes in cannot be ignored. Or maybe tell her she needs to leave the iphone at home. Cripes, what does she actually do that would dictate she HAS to have a phone on her person when she is with her family?



> And now I'm questioning if I would even want her back if she STOPPED all of this nonsense. I don't really know. Why give an ultimatum to someone to "STOP AND COME HOME" when you just aren't sure you want them there.
> 
> Ideally, the nonsense stops, she proves to me that its stopped - and we work from there and try to move forward.


This is pretty much the arc I followed. 

As I have said numerous times, most of her previous efforts were about the appearance that she had stopped the nonsense rather than an emotional commitment to stop the nonsense.

She would approach me to reconcile. She'd walk smack into a boundary - then withdraw and blame me. I didn't pursue - which was once again off-script from her perspective. That happened at least six times.

It's also why the last one caught me off-guard. Because she did all of the things that she knew I would require prior to even considering it. It also came at a time where I was once again pushing the divorce forward.



> One thing I have done - didn't leave the house and the kids stayed with me. Custody talk has come up - and it upsets my wife VERY much. To me, this is a boundary issue. "Mom-up" or you aren't getting the kids. Judges favor status quo, and "possession" is 9/10s of the law. I feel good about my chances. Not doing it out of spite, or to win. But because I feel I'm their best option. Unless she makes some major changes - that's a line in the sand that will not be moved. And I can tell how nervous it makes her. She gets very worked up about it - and I calmly respond that I'm not discussing custody with someone who I'm not even divorcing yet. Drives her crazy.


Yeah, you have boundaries. I think what is important to understand, is boundaries do not correlate into results. What they do is set the expectation for a result for the person who has challenged or crossed them, which in turn means they need to reconsider how they choose to interact. 



> Nothing else I do really effects her much. Yet in this case - talking about custody - by saying very little and exuding confidence, it scares the hell out of her.
> 
> It puzzles me though, because she truly doesn't seem to value them now. Could be one of two things:
> 1) Custody = child support
> 2) the shame of being a divorced Mom who doesn't work and doesn't have custody of her kids


My opinion is it's the latter. It's apparent that she cares tremendously how she is seen and thought of - in particular quarters.

If she does stop caring about that point, she could choose to embrace and dive deeper into the world she's already dabbling her toes in.

And this is what I'm talking about. If she were to make that choice; it in no way means that _you_ failed the relationship.

Does anybody get what I'm saying, or should I go back to huffing dust cleaner?


----------



## nice777guy

Bob - in the past - playing with the phone has meant "chatting / texting other men." She's looking for attention to feed her hurting ego.

Deejo - when you say "just leave" - do you mean just leave the room? Or have divorce papers filled out in my back pocket?

I do leave the room. Have asked her to leave the house before, but she refuses and I'm not going to expose my kids to any more shouting matches.

Last time this came up I said to her that she was either:
a) trying to hurt me
b) just didn't care

She claims to care - says she was trying to get my attention.

But wait - all the texting and chatting she does when I'm not around doesn't get my attention. So its not really about me, is it?

She enjoys whatever she's doing - and I'm an afterthought.

I continue to treat her kindly - I love her, and I want to show the kids that Mommy and Daddy can still get along. Have gone No Contact with little success in the past. Has been difficult due to the kids.

Ok - gotta get some work done today!


----------



## AFEH

Yep. My wife made “that choice” and left.

Got back to me via a few people how I’d apparently forced her out. It was her choice, she booked her flight and left. She knows she’s made a mistake but she don’t get back in because I know she’ll never change the behaviour I found abusive and intolerable. I know she’ll never change. That’s the judgement I made and the judgement I’m sticking to. I know she’s having a real bad time of it all but this one she’s going to have to get through without my help and support.

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

Too bad we can't all be having this conversation - sitting around a bar somewhere.

And as odd as it sounds - the only time I start to feel like a failure is from some of the criticism I take around here. For not having executed a perfect Plan A - for not being The Alpha Male.

Although I can learn from MEM and BBW - I'm just not sure that's who I am.

Like I said - I was "good enough" for 20+ years. I could use a little polish and paint - but I'm still good enough. I'm just not sure she deserves me anymore.

If it was only me that she was pushing away from, I'd take it a lot more personal. But its her family (parents and brother invited me over to their last cookout - didn't call her - knew she wouldn't come), the kids, old friends, etc. 

Interesting thread. Thanks all.


----------



## nice777guy

One last thing - the more I think - the more I realize either No Contact or File Already are my best options.

But I would feel like a jackass for going "no contact" again - given that I've tried it 2 or 3 times and did it so poorly.

And File Already - well - just not quite there yet.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Too bad we can't all be having this conversation - sitting around a bar somewhere.
> 
> And as odd as it sounds - the only time I start to feel like a failure is from some of the criticism I take around here. For not having executed a perfect Plan A - for not being The Alpha Male.
> 
> Although I can learn from MEM and BBW - I'm just not sure that's who I am.
> 
> Like I said - I was "good enough" for 20+ years. I could use a little polish and paint - but I'm still good enough. I'm just not sure she deserves me anymore.
> 
> If it was only me that she was pushing away from, I'd take it a lot more personal. But its her family (parents and brother invited me over to their last cookout - didn't call her - knew she wouldn't come), the kids, old friends, etc.
> 
> Interesting thread. Thanks all.


For what it's worth NG I've never gone along with that Alpha stuff. For me that belongs in wolf packs and prides of lions etc. Never consciously played a woman in my life either. I haven't commented anywhere here about it because it's my opinion and the sensitivties of people who promote those things.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> One last thing - the more I think - the more I realize either No Contact or File Already are my best options.
> 
> But I would feel like a jackass for going "no contact" again - given that I've tried it 2 or 3 times and did it so poorly.
> 
> And File Already - well - just not quite there yet.


No contact worked for me. Got me through the first 6 months. I broke it just a couple of times, it's called dipping, got hurt and went NC again. Takes practice to get it done properly. I used the six months to work through my emotions and settle down to a place of equilibrium. I've spent this week understanding the divorce process and encouraging my wife to work with me on it in an amicable way.

I ain’t never going to understand my wife.

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

I try not to get too defensive when reading BBW, MEM and many other's posts. I'm not them - but I can learn from them. And what they are doing has obviously worked - they have the track record to prove it. Otherwise, its a bit ironic that so many people come here and end up getting advice from other people with recently failed marriages...telling them/us what they wish they had done differently a year ago.

MEM has pointed several statements at me - even on this thread. But I know that he understands my situation and I look forward to reading his advice, even if I don't always agree. Would rather get harsh advice from MEM that may sting a bit then some generic advice from someone who doesn't really know my history - or my personality.


----------



## BigBadWolf

breeze said:


> Emotional honesty, in all it's glory, brings some passion to a relationship that is otherwise just confusing and emotionally cold.
> 
> I'm not talking yelling and screaming and being a moron, I mean just being honest. I mean like BBW described.
> 
> I don't see what he did so much as bringing out his dominant side, as being honest with his wife. Suddenly she had the man back whom she married. He wasn't hiding behind his walls anymore, trying to be the man he thought she wanted him to be. Just my take on it.
> 
> After reading BBWs post I asked my DH what he felt when I walked into the room. Obviously we haven't been married as long as others here, only 5yrs, and we are in a fairly good place right now. He said 'Horny, I want to throw you on the bed'. He didn't give me the soppy stuff guys think we want to hear. I much prefer emotional honesty.


Thank you for putting it this way.

I have said it before, a man acting like a man, through all the clouds and confusion and dust settling, is just this, the man is having the courage to simply be honest.


----------



## BigBadWolf

Deejo said:


> So when MEM steps up, apologizes, demonstrating his love and they both get the happy ending, it's a beautiful thing.
> 
> If NiceGuy steps up, apologizes , demonstrating his love and his wife rolls her eyes and goes back to chatting on Face Book he is a sucker, or doing it wrong.
> 
> Both men are being emotionally honest, with drastically different results. MEM's wife loves and respects him, NG's wife doesn't know what the hell she wants, despite having a husband that loves and respects her.


This scenario is just this, the same actions produce two differnt reactions.

The difference, MEM11363 has in the relationship shown his woman, by his behavior, what backs up his actions, whether his desires, whether he pays his woman a compliment, whether he is not satisfied with something, and even when appropriate his apologies. 

Even in my own relatioship, did it not really change for the better once I came to the attitude that even if my woman left I would not let this stop me from doing what I believed was correct. This dynamic, to the woman, is fundamental, and all these other actions and behaviors, show this reality. 

THe woman will place a high value on a man that has demonstrated he has other options, and she will place a high value on the desires of such a man, whether sexual, or even his desire to pay her a compliment or to apologize. 

His woman feels (read this again FEELS, it's important), from the foundation already layed, that if push really comes to shove he is not afraid of his woman, and so when he apologizies it is obvious and not to be in any question it is not from fear or appeasement, it is sincerity.

By contrast a man that is making his woman FEEL like he doesn't deserve her, to such a man his woman will in her feminine self feel suspcious and eventually resentful of his behaviors, because a man such as this apologizing, maybe he is realy sorry, maybe not, because if he is afraid he will just say whatever it takes to decieve her.




> Which is exactly why I started this thread. There are both men and women in the world that don't know what the hell they want and can't get it right even when you hand them the answers.
> 
> I have done plenty of self introspection, and time on the couch. So have plenty of other men here. The stark reality is that the emotional dynamic and symmetry that both MEM and BBW describe is rare - over the long term. Sadly, rare. I wish it wasn't. It is why I value their input. I don't want them to stop giving their input. But I don't for a moment believe that if every male on the planet started following the mechanics and patterns they describe, that every woman would in turn become devoted, committed, loving, horny, spouses and partners.


The advice I give most frequent on this board, the importance of maintaining sexual structure and this means masculine dominance and feminine submission, it is assuming two things: There is not an health issue preventing sexual connection, and there was actual sexual attraction in the begining of the relationship.

If these two asumptions are two, then the relationship on it's on accord has strongest potential to survive and thrive, by removing any all barriers to the original sexual atraction (resentment, appeasment, fear, etc).


----------



## nice777guy

BBW - I agree with your assessment on the difference in the two apologies. I often apologize to keep the peace. I apologize to keep from hurting people. These apologies "cheapen" the real ones - the ones that are sincere. I'm basically lying.

Talked in another thread about my wife's new tattoo. My first reaction was negative. But then I saw how disappointed she felt - she thought I would find it sexy. So, I apologized, hoping to make her feel better.

Last night we talked briefly and I told her that I was wrong to apologize. That my initial reaction was real and honest, while the apology was a fake, meant to keep the peace.


----------



## MEM2020

BBW,
Your description is pitch perfect. It borders on scary how accurate it is. 




BigBadWolf said:


> This scenario is just this, the same actions produce two differnt reactions.
> 
> The difference, MEM11363 has in the relationship shown his woman, by his behavior, what backs up his actions, whether his desires, whether he pays his woman a compliment, whether he is not satisfied with something, and even when appropriate his apologies.
> 
> Even in my own relatioship, did it not really change for the better once I came to the attitude that even if my woman left I would not let this stop me from doing what I believed was correct. This dynamic, to the woman, is fundamental, and all these other actions and behaviors, show this reality.
> 
> THe woman will place a high value on a man that has demonstrated he has other options, and she will place a high value on the desires of such a man, whether sexual, or even his desire to pay her a compliment or to apologize.
> 
> His woman feels (read this again FEELS, it's important), from the foundation already layed, that if push really comes to shove he is not afraid of his woman, and so when he apologizies it is obvious and not to be in any question it is not from fear or appeasement, it is sincerity.
> 
> By contrast a man that is making his woman FEEL like he doesn't deserve her, to such a man his woman will in her feminine self feel suspcious and eventually resentful of his behaviors, because a man such as this apologizing, maybe he is realy sorry, maybe not, because if he is afraid he will just say whatever it takes to decieve her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The advice I give most frequent on this board, the importance of maintaining sexual structure and this means masculine dominance and feminine submission, it is assuming two things: There is not an health issue preventing sexual connection, and there was actual sexual attraction in the begining of the relationship.
> 
> If these two asumptions are two, then the relationship on it's on accord has strongest potential to survive and thrive, by removing any all barriers to the original sexual atraction (resentment, appeasment, fear, etc).


----------



## MEM2020

NG,
I genuinely am sorry if my posts sometimes make you feel worse. I truly think you are a great guy. I hope to God some day my two daughters marry someone as kind and considerate and decent as you are. 

And I also hope that guy has a titanium spine or THEY won't deserve HIM. Because they are (deep sigh) very difficult. And I have seen what happens when their mother shows them kindness without limit - they BOTH quickly become a fuvking nightmare to deal with. And I can tell you how they respond when she and I stand shoulder to shoulder and give them a firm and often harsh blast of reality. Suddenly they behave like decent human beings. I love my daughters. They both have that spark. They are both a bit crazy. Given unconditional love they respond like feral children. Ruthless, aggressive and mean. Given a mix of love and hard boundaries they are actually capable of civilized behavior. BOTH of them will need a BBW to tame them. Perhaps he has sons.....

As for my son well that is a totally different story. Give him unconditional love and he gives it back. This is NOT a sexist comment it is simply a statement of fact. Maybe this is just my family genetics. I don't know. I DO KNOW that he is not well suited to marry anyone similar to his sisters. He is too kind. Perhaps he will find a kinder, gentler woman out there. I hope so. He is by nature, not equipped to deal with a difficult woman....





nice777guy said:


> I try not to get too defensive when reading BBW, MEM and many other's posts. I'm not them - but I can learn from them. And what they are doing has obviously worked - they have the track record to prove it. Otherwise, its a bit ironic that so many people come here and end up getting advice from other people with recently failed marriages...telling them/us what they wish they had done differently a year ago.
> 
> MEM has pointed several statements at me - even on this thread. But I know that he understands my situation and I look forward to reading his advice, even if I don't always agree. Would rather get harsh advice from MEM that may sting a bit then some generic advice from someone who doesn't really know my history - or my personality.


----------



## Affaircare

I realize I am a person of the female person and thus somewhat verboten here (snicker) but I've been following this thread with interest because you guys are sharing so openly and I think this is a very honest representation of what a lot of males of the species think. So do you mind if I jump in just with my personal perspective on a few of these thoughts? 



nice777guy said:


> So - why doesn't this **** hit the fan until 10 to 15 years down the road?
> 
> For most people, sex goes downhill after the first child - 3 to 5 years into things. I would guess that for MOST people, this decrease in the frequency of sex is permanent because children of all ages require time and energy. Plus, most of us lose a bit of our step as we age. Yes - there are exceptions. But most people have a lot more sex when they are younger and before they have kids.
> 
> But this "test" that women give us, or this "Mid-life Crisis", seems to come several years after the first child - often after the 2nd or 3rd.


Since I am a person now nearing 50y.o. may I offer a view from down the road? When you're young both spouses have all kinds of hormones and energy--and without the kids and mortgage there's the perception of a little more "time for each other." Of course, in real life the 24 hours is consistent  but without those responsibilities, it seems as if she has time to dress up for him and energy for sex, and he has time to write her a love poem and energy to make love. 

However right here, at the beginning, is where I think a lot of couples...a LOT...make a major, fatal mistake. Baby #1 comes along and a house, and I think they both begin to operate in Oneday mode." Oneday mode is like this: "I will work like a dog now and take time for loving my wife oneday..." or "I will put sex on hold for now while I care for the kids and have time for my husband oneday..." or "I'll sacrifice time with the family now while I'm finishing college, and I'll have time for them oneday..." You get the drift right? I think both have their heart in the right place, but the fact of the matter is that while school, kids, work and life get in the way "temporarily" that's also when resentment, feeling taken advantage of, and loneliness set in.

And yep, once the bloom is off the rose of the honeymoon, there is a decrease in frequency a little...and then again as each child is born there can be even more of a decrease...and it can be permanent IF (and that's a big if) they are living in Oneday mode. That's because if either partner thinks "we'll have time for sex oneday..." in the meantime he feels rejected and she feels overwhelmed and unattractive, and they both find someone who makes them feel accepted NOW--not Oneday. 

The really SUCKY thing is that I think many wives have huge misnomers about sex. "Oh we can't have sex while they're babies, I get no sleep and I'm exhausted. We'll have sex when they're toddlers." "Oh we can't have sex while they're toddlers because they could just walk in. We'll have sex when they're in school because they'll need us less." "Oh we can't have sex while they're school-aged because we have to be to (PTA, Brownies, soccer, etc.) We'll have sex when they're teens because they won't be around as much." "Oh we can't have sex while they're teens. They'll know what we're doing! We'll have sex when they move out." And nowadays kids live at home playing Halo until they're 30! So by then after years of no sex life they are so frustrated they're done and they walk out on their spouse. What's so sad is that the whole time rather than making excuses to not have sex they could have put that same energy into making excuses to have sex. 

I personally believe marriage is for life, though ,because of what happens when the kids finally do start to move out. If you've kept in touch with each other and made the time for loving each other, a kid or two moves out and it is like a flipping second honeymoon! I speak from experience! Because suddenly you two are both old enough to have some sexual experience and know what turns you on and off, and you're not dead yet but not quite monkeys--it's amazing! Plus you have some money (like when you were young and so broke...now you can actually GO to the hotel room and Hawaii, etc.) The trick though is to make it through the years and keep making excuses TO HAVE SEX, not excuses to put it off. Unfortunately I know that now, and I didn't know it then. 



nice777guy said:


> So, a basic question I often find myself asking:
> "If I was good enough for her to marry, and good enough for her to stay with and NOT stray for 14+ years, why should I start looking to change myself now? Why assume that I'm the problem?"
> 
> Now, I understand that making positive changes is always - well - positive. And that these changes may be necessary for a healthy 2nd marriage. But the MEM and BBW way of seeing things leads many of us to conclude - self included - that suddenly you aren't "Man Enough".


You know what puzzles me? I'm not sure how you jump to the conclusion you're not man enough. Seriously that's like saying, "I was good enough to marry, and good enough to be faithful to for 14 years, but ORANGE." Ummmmm...what? :scratchhead: Again speaking purely for myself, in my first marriage I think I started it with the idea that my ex would be more faithful to me than prior to marriage because there's more at stake--there's a vow and kids and co-owned assets (and in our case a business). I also kind of entered it in a gigantic game of playing house and denial. For example, my ex had EA's for our entire marriage and I brushed them off as "flirtiness" because a) I was faithful hearted and b) I didn't want to think of what it would mean if it was more than flirting, so I avoided it. Really I created An Illusion. The Illusion was that I was a good wife; and he was a tall, sexy, loving husband; we had a happy family; and we were successful in marriage and business. I worked VERY HARD to make that Illusion real, but the only problem was that I wasn't a good wife--I did a lot of things wrong. He was tall and sexy but with other women (I have proof of 13 EAs that I ignored, 1 PA that tore us apart, and 1 more PA before the divorce was final). Our family was anything but happy--it was abusive and harmful. And our business was fairly successful but our marriage was NOT. 

I think what MEM and BBW suggest is closer to "stop trying to make the Illusion real and face reality." Reality was that I had been physically abused and needed to go to counseling. Reality was that he was verbally/emotionally/mentally and physically abusive. Reality was that he was unfaithful and had been for most of our marriage. Reality was that our kids were harmed from it. And you can see why I would rather go with the Illusion that face reality! 

But once I did face reality, I was able to get the counseling I needed and I became a better person. Once I did face reality, I got to get help for the domestic violence. Once I did face reality I was able to admit that even though I tried and tried and tried to hope and fix things, that ultimately he didn't want to be faithful. 

It really didn't have anything to do with "him not being man enough" because to me that implies some setting boundaries and standing up for yourself kind of posturing. It's more like, having the courage to face yourself, and let her decide for herself if she's going to face herself or not. If she's not, then your pathways will not continue together and she'll be the one walking away from your path. Seriously, it's like two islands with a bridge. Her island has moved and the bridge between you two broke...and somehow you're saying the bridge broke because you weren't island enough. That makes no sense to me. 



nice777guy said:


> Also - in my case - it isn't just me that my wife is pushing me away. Its the kids, her family, friends who are mothers with children, etc., etc. Tempting to say "maybe my case is different", but that's what we ALL said at first, right?


We're all exactly the same--except me. I'm unique. LOL  To be completely blunt, about 99% of the disloyals completely push away all that defined them before the affair. Before my ex's affair he had guy friends and dumped all of them because they disapproved. He was a family man attending all the aunt's and uncle's events and picnics...and he dumped all of them because they disapproved. He didn't give a hoot about the kids, didn't contribute a penny to care for them or feed them (until a judge forced him to). He walked away from a business that took him 10 years to build. 

When I was disloyal I was ready to walk away from it all too. That's because at the time I was so sick and tired of being lonely and taken advantage of that I didn't care WHO didn't like it, I wanted to get the heck out. After all I have to live in my skin. So sadly, NG, the fact that she's pushing everyone away is not really a surprise. A puzzle kind of but not surprising or unique at all.


----------



## AFEH

Affaircare,
_“It really didn't have anything to do with "him not being man enough" because to me that implies some setting boundaries and standing up for yourself kind of posturing”._

Sounds like you disagree with boundaries? Not only that but you see them as some kind of posturing and not a need to prevent further abuse?

_“He was tall and sexy but with other women (I have proof of 13 EAs that I ignored, 1 PA that tore us apart, and 1 more PA before the divorce was final). Our family was anything but happy--it was abusive and harmful. And our business was fairly successful but our marriage was NOT”._

Maybe if you’d have set a boundary after you discovered the first EA there wouldn’t have been 12 more? Maybe you’re family would have been happy if you did set boundaries or your marriage would have ended a lot sooner?

Sounds like you gave him your unconditional love, a love without boundaries. For me that is where it goes wrong. Our children are I think the only people in our life we give our unconditional love to. That unconditional love can at times include “tough love”. That is we set boundaries on their behaviour when they are doing something wrong. Cross the boundary and they get punished. But it's still unconditional in the sense that we're always there for them. Not so with our spouse.

At times on our journey of marriage our spouse needs tough love as well. They need to know the consequences of continuing with certain behaviour. We do that by setting boundaries.

The onus is then on the spouse, they know where they stand. We've passed back responsibility of their behaviour to them. Very much like we do with a child.

We no longer need to look inside ourselves and ask "What is wrong with me, how can I change to make things better?". It's the spouses behaviour that's wrong, not ours.

Put it this way. A guest in your home has abused your hospitality by stealing money from a purse. They’ve not returned the money, not asked for forgiveness and haven’t shown any sign of remorse. They are a thief. Do you spend time asking yourself if you should have left your purse in the open? Do you blame yourself for asking the person into your home? Do you spend time telling them that it’s not right to steal and try and get them to change their values and beliefs? Surely not. Do you let them back into your home again? Surely not. The door is locked to them. That’s the boundary.

Same thing with an abusive spouse. If they don’t change their abusive behaviour, the door is locked to them. They get the message exceeding quickly.


Bob


----------



## BigBadWolf

Niceguy,

I too am not happy with the notoin that I am implying you are not man enough.

That is the beauty and even the assumption I can make of every good man on this forum. If he is in the relationship with a woman, that was at one time on fire and full of life, and now is not so much, then such a man is indeed already in his core "MAN ENOUGH". 

For such a man has already gone through the test of fire, to demonstrate himself to his woman in his actions and behavior all these dominant things already that speak of.

So in this way, I am not at all satisfied for any man to think I am criticizing him to be something he is not.

On the contrary, I am only meaning by direct talk on these cause and effect matters, to hopefully bring to some good men on this board, some clarity and inspiration to indeed STOP ALREADY BEHAVING AS SOMETHING HE IS NOT, either from fear or resentment or political correct thinking or what have you, and return to displaying boldly the honesty and confidence that they must have already inside them, lest they would have ever been in the sexual relatoinship to begin with! 

Again, if you are in a relationship that at one times was sexual and blissful, and there are not the health reasons preventing reconnection (which I unerstand may be the case with your woman), then the solution is to become AGAIN what you were in the beginning.

A man does not date a woman by walking into a bar and offering flowers and to do houswork and promise to be a better man eventually.

Instead a man presents himself confident, comfortable with himself, somewhat aloof, and he will notice which women are noticing hims, giving him her subtle clues, and if confident enough maybe he will approach such a woman to engage her in conversation hoping to spark her intersest, and hoping to get to know her better. 

And she will of course have her defenses, to keep out just any weak man, but only the bold and confident man will be successful for her to open up to, as she will not open up to just any man, but to the man that is dominant enough to "win" her.

In all this, the man is attempting to displaying sexual dominance, because that is what is natural and normal. A man strives to dominate, a woman strives to be dominated.

Even outside a bar, if the good man were to meet a woman at church, or at the workplace (being careful I would hope in that particular scenario though), or even through network of his friends, the structure is the same.

And during the beginning of the relationship, is so much in the back of his mind, maybe this girl is the one, maybe not, so without even much thinking does he keep options open. This is simply saying, in the beginning of the dating, surely the man is not going to let himself go, to be a slob, or pay attention to other things to the neglect of attention to his woman. ANd of course, in the woman's mind, it is the same.

So during all this, sexual attraction is very high.

Over time, even years, into the relationship, is the million little things creeping in, a compromise here, a compromise there, because as time and energy is put into the relationship, the man is getting a little fearful maybe of losing this woman and having to start all over again. Again, in the womans mind, the same. 

When there is compromises made, and not the perceived value in return, this builds resentment and kills sexual attraction. Over time, this will bury a relationship.

The finisse in all this, to make sure even over years and years, the FEELING that initially created sexual attraction is maintained. Call this chemistry, call this lust, call this love, whatever you wish. 

And it is maintained by continuing to honor the structure of sexual attraction, a man strives to dominate, a woman strives to be dominated. This is merely the structure that was present at the beginning, when sexual attraction was on fire.

So for the good man, even years and years in to the marriage, for him to continue to make his woman feel she is being pursued by a confident, bold, and desirable man, a man that she feels has options.

For this keeps BOTH the good man and woman motivated and on fire for each other!


----------



## Affaircare

AFEH said:


> Affaircare,
> _“It really didn't have anything to do with "him not being man enough" because to me that implies some setting boundaries and standing up for yourself kind of posturing”._
> 
> Sounds like you disagree with boundaries? Not only that but you see them as some kind of posturing and not a need to prevent further abuse?


Actually quite the opposite, AFEH. Back then, in the past, I had no clue what a boundary was really and thus had none. When I took the time to face reality, even though it wasn't pretty, that's when I learned the tools to make things really successful...such as the need for personal boundaries. 

In this instance NG was basically saying that if he was good enough to marry and stay with for 14 years, why should he change himself? That he understood changes for the better were good but that MEM and BBW's way of thinking suggested he wasn't "man enough" (paraphrasing). My point there is that MEM and BBW are not saying, "Hey man, you aren't man enough" because not being man enough is not even part of the discussion. It has nothing to do with whether someone is "man enough." It has to do with facing reality, even when it is ugly, and then getting the help you need to get to face those realities in a more healthy way RATHER THAN chasing The Illusion which never did really exist. 

To my mind as a female person the MEM and BBW method does come across like pretty militant boundary posturing, and I'm not positive I'd like the way they present it (as I appreciate a firm but gentle approach), but that doesn't mean it isn't healthy. From what I can see it's as healthy as can be and their spouses seem to respond to it in a positive way.



> _“He was tall and sexy but with other women (I have proof of 13 EAs that I ignored, 1 PA that tore us apart, and 1 more PA before the divorce was final). Our family was anything but happy--it was abusive and harmful. And our business was fairly successful but our marriage was NOT”._
> 
> Maybe if you’d have set a boundary after you discovered the first EA there wouldn’t have been 12 more? Maybe you’re family would have been happy if you did set boundaries or your marriage would have ended a lot sooner?


Well YEAH! As I mentioned, I did not even understand the concept of what a boundary *was* until after the first PA when I started facing reality rather than The Illusion (and the first PA was after all the EAs) because I was in some denial myself. I knew it was bad and felt bad, but I so firmly held to the "happy family, handsome husband, successful couple" Illusion that I could not see it wasn't real! I have no doubt that if I had set a boundary after the first EA that it would have made a difference. I do believe the main difference would have been that I would not have tolerated that kind of treatment though....not that he would have "stopped" or "changed" or wanted to change. The difference would have been that it saved me from years of abusive treatment and disrespect. 

Thus again I reiterate-- it is not boundaries I disagree with. Boundaries are very healthy. But I don't think boundaries mean someone isn't "man enough" and I do think that tying "man enough" to positive changes is like comparing apples to oranges. If I disagree with anything, it is trying to keep chasing The Illusion when that illusion is what never existed.


----------



## nice777guy

All men in my shoes take this very personally. "My wife has left - am I not good enough / what's wrong with me?"

I see the phrase "Man-up" around here quite a bit. I don't like it. It does imply that you aren't a man now.

Instead, if I look a bit deeper into some of the writings I find the following:
"Accept reality"
"Be honest - both with yourself and your spouse"
"Keep your emotions under control"
"If you can't keep your emotions under control, create some distance"
"Sex is important"
"Only apologize if you mean it - its not a tool to keep the peace"
"Find your boundaries and find a way to enforce them"
"Do what you need to do"
"Do things for yourself"

But when I first heard "Man-up", images of a caveman with a club came to mind. Was I not being aggressive enough? Was I not being "strong" enough? What if that's not who I am? And maybe those are the reasons my wife has basically left me?

Well - then you're right back to "Am I not good enough?" And again, how can you not take this stuff personally?

No answers from me right now. Just reflection.


----------



## Deejo

Can't tell you all how much being able to have these discussions means to me. So ... to all of you, a sincere thank you. 

It helps. Even when it hurts, it helps. It has value. It isn't 'fluff'. I don't feel any of this is pointless. Whether or not we all agree on implementation and execution, we all want the same thing; the women we love and value, to reciprocate that love and value.

I just got jumped. That's my phrase for when, for whatever reason, my emotions get the best of me. It always involves tears, but it isn't always about sadness. My emotional honesty is that I frequently feel things very up front and very powerfully. I temper it when the circumstance requires. Otherwise, I just go with it.

It follows on the heels of my son calling and saying in his own so very unique, loving, wonderful, beautifully awkward, and ever so brave way that he needs his family; me his sister, his mother, TOM (I laughed warmly at this. Can't be mad at my boy for caring), nana and papa, nanny, and grampy to all sleep over so they would be safe from the hurricane. 

Then I read MEM's posting about his children. Specifically, his son. Made me think of my own, and just emotionally vulnerable he is. It also reminded me of an exchange I had with my mother, not all that long ago.

That conversation in itself was emotionally powerful, because I asked her directly, what happened between she and my father, and what led to her choosing infidelity. She didn't shirk a thing. In a nutshell, she felt physically, and emotionally abandoned. My dad detached from her, and from his children. She pursued him to talk, address, work at it. He told her to "Leave it alone." 

She began sharing her feelings and troubles with someone else - and there you have it. Text book, stuff at this point.

What upset her the most was what she had to say about me. She said how proud she was to raise a compassionate, thoughtful, and emotionally open son - but that it came with the fear of who I would marry. She was concerned that my emotional openess, would lead to being taken advantage of or taken for granted.

All of this discussion has only further stirred my curiosity. I'm going to post a thread in the Ladies Lounge and see if any are willing to share.


----------



## Deejo

I can't shake the notion that just as it is apparent that MEM and BBW think in similar terms - so do you and I.



nice777guy said:


> All men in my shoes take this very personally. "My wife has left - am I not good enough / what's wrong with me?"
> 
> I see the phrase "Man-up" around here quite a bit. I don't like it. It does imply that you aren't a man now.
> 
> Instead, if I look a bit deeper into some of the writings I find the following:
> "Accept reality"
> "Be honest - both with yourself and your spouse"
> "Keep your emotions under control"
> "If you can't keep your emotions under control, create some distance"
> "Sex is important"
> "Only apologize if you mean it - its not a tool to keep the peace"
> "Find your boundaries and find a way to enforce them"
> "Do what you need to do"
> "Do things for yourself"
> 
> But when I first heard "Man-up", images of a caveman with a club came to mind. Was I not being aggressive enough? Was I not being "strong" enough? What if that's not who I am? And maybe those are the reasons my wife has basically left me?
> 
> Well - then you're right back to "Am I not good enough?" And again, how can you not take this stuff personally?
> 
> No answers from me right now. Just reflection.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Can't tell you all how much being able to have these discussions means to me. So ... to all of you, a sincere thank you.


:iagree:

Everything written on this thread has been very, very helpful in one way or another.

Like I said before - just wish we were all having a drink at a bar somewhere instead of typing it out on the net.

(Sorry AC - no women allowed!!)


----------



## BigBadWolf

Deejo said:


> Can't tell you all how much being able to have these discussions means to me. So ... to all of you, a sincere thank you.



Deejo,

These discussions are most beneficial and enlightening for myself as well. 

It is good for us to continue, and I have even requested this thread for some other good men I am in correspondence with to read for their own benefit.





> What upset her the most was what she had to say about me. She said how proud she was to raise a compassionate, thoughtful, and emotionally open son - but that it came with the fear of who I would marry. She was concerned that my emotional openess, would lead to being taken advantage of or taken for granted.


This is important for me as well.

As interesting as this, MEM11363 asked if I had sons earlier. Funny, that yes I have two sons and a daughter.

And my sons, teenagers, very much like you are describing, very open and in many ways "soft hearted" as in their upbringing, I guess in many ways they hav had it easy, and not as the struggles that my wife and I had growing up. Certainly not some aggressive womaninzing "cave men" that you may humorously imagine, but intelligent and curious and in many ways still exploring the world through much innocense I suppose.

So to their view, seeing how I interact with their mother, sure there is some essence of our "bigbadwolf" relationship that shows now and then, but mainly it is appearing that I am simply doting my wife and we are usually spending time together or talking or sneaking off together. 

So in so many ways, I have developed with my sons the comfort and openness and direct relationship that we can speak openly of these things, and to some extent I am devloping the similar openness with my own daughter but she is just in the year a young teenager.

But of course most of these things I know they are not understanding or believing, because I am also hesitant to go into great detail as to the private relationship I have with my wife, their mother, as to respect everyone's privacy.

But I will merely sow these seeds for now, so that in the later years when their own relatoinships develop, they will see with their own eyes these cause and effects, and of course if willing I will be happy to discuss in any greater detail at that stage, what would be helpful to them.

But for now between my wife and myself, my children do not see these things I speak of openly on this board, with the sexual aggresion and behavior and even the conversations between me and my wife behind closed doors, for them, and to the whole world actually, it is a very much secret world, like MEM11363 has eloquently described, a world between my and my wife of our own creating.

And I know this, and even now just thinking this as well, that there IS an element of secrecy that my wife has on more than one occasion mentioned as very thrilling and our "dark secrets", of that on the surface are we just some normal married couple, but then in our private times is a whole nother world unleashed between us, where she is as very much craving for me to pursue her, to overtake her, and show her the mettle I am made of.

And only in recent years, maybe now that the children getting a little older, will my wife let loose a remark, or a gesture, that gives a clue to some element of our "dark side", but this is only recently!

So again, this is just now coming to my mind, is this the same thrill as perhaps will lead a man or woman in the thrill of an affair, given the secrecy and the forbiddeness, is adding to the enhancement of the sexual thrill? As to a woman may feel in this scenario, if she is going to be a "bad woman", she may as well unleash herself and take it all the way?

I don't know, jyust thinking as I am typing.




> All of this discussion has only further stirred my curiosity. I'm going to post a thread in the Ladies Lounge and see if any are willing to share.


I will look for this thread as well.

THank you.


----------



## Affaircare

nice777guy said:


> All men in my shoes take this very personally. "My wife has left - am I not good enough / what's wrong with me?"
> 
> I see the phrase "Man-up" around here quite a bit. I don't like it. It does imply that you aren't a man now.


AH! Now see that makes sense! Of course you take it personally when your spouse leaves...and although I think the "man up" is said more like "Have courage and be the man you were meant to be" I can see where it could sound like "you are not being a man now." 

Okay thank you for clearing this up! 




> But when I first heard "Man-up", images of a caveman with a club came to mind. Was I not being aggressive enough? Was I not being "strong" enough? What if that's not who I am? And maybe those are the reasons my wife has basically left me?
> 
> Well - then you're right back to "Am I not good enough?" And again, how can you not take this stuff personally?


You know you mentioned this in the discussion about one partner being [email protected]*t and one being more "mellow" too...that you are not as much of an energetic, aggressive type and wouldn't it be boring to put two "mellow" types together... Remember that? 

As you may have noticed, I'm not exactly Miss Hyper Aggressive myself--in fact I'm pretty laid back and easy-going I think.  However, I think there's a difference between being aggressive, assertive, and passive--and that's where the issue lies somewhat. 

To my mind, my ex was aggressive (your term: [email protected]*t :rofl and that would be acting in a way that is bordering abusive. Aggression is characterized by actions like unprovoked offensives, attacks, invasions--like a menacing behavior. I personally do not think that being aggressive is very healthy.

Assertive is a positive, self-assured, confident way of acting. It's asking for help if you need it, or expressing anger appropriately, or speaking up with your opinion even when you differ with someone. I think this is a pretty healthy way of living, and I think a person be both empathetic and assertive. I mean, I pretty much speak my mind even when folks disagree strongly ... say about exposure ... but likewise I think I can express empathy and understanding. 

Thus I think one main point I'm making here is that you can be you (fairly mellow, easy-going NiceGuy) and also still be assertive. And I don't think it has to do with how much "man" you are but probably moreso with how you value yourself. 



> Instead, if I look a bit deeper into some of the writings I find the following:
> "Accept reality"
> "Be honest - both with yourself and your spouse"
> "Keep your emotions under control"
> "If you can't keep your emotions under control, create some distance"
> "Sex is important"
> "Only apologize if you mean it - its not a tool to keep the peace"
> "Find your boundaries and find a way to enforce them"
> "Do what you need to do"
> "Do things for yourself"


This stuff is ON THE MONEY! Well said!


----------



## MEM2020

I would like that too. This is a very interesting and good group of people. 






nice777guy said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Everything written on this thread has been very, very helpful in one way or another.
> 
> Like I said before - just wish we were all having a drink at a bar somewhere instead of typing it out on the net.
> 
> (Sorry AC - no women allowed!!)


----------



## Affaircare

Okay I'll serve the beers! :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol:


----------



## nice777guy

breeze said:


> We are constantly bombarded with books, music, movies etc that show great passion and great love.


All great points, but especially this. Real Love really isn't all that glamorous is it? Sometimes its actually hard work - especially when you throw a dose of real life (jobs, kids, money, etc) in the mix.


----------



## Affaircare

BigBadWolf said:


> ...On the contrary, I am only meaning by direct talk on these cause and effect matters, to hopefully *bring to some good men on this board, some clarity and inspiration to indeed STOP ALREADY BEHAVING AS SOMETHING HE IS NOT,* either from fear or resentment or political correct thinking or what have you, and *return to displaying boldly the honesty and confidence that they must have already inside them*, lest they would have ever been in the sexual relatoinship to begin with!
> 
> Again, if you are in a relationship that at one times was sexual and blissful, ...then the solution is to* become AGAIN what you were in the beginning*.


This is possibly one of the best "manly" descriptions of Love Kindlers and Love Extinguishers I've ever found. There was something about you that attracted you two together, and along the way, that changed. Plan A/Carrot & Stick is exactly this: become again the man you were...the man you have the ability to be, and lovingly but firmly allow the disloyal to experience the consequence of their choices to treat the life partner with disdain! It's not aggressive, mean, alpha male, abusive, or vengeful at all. It is firm, loving, accepting nothing less than 100% faithfulness and respect. 



> A man does not date a woman by walking into a bar and offering flowers and to do houswork and promise to be a better man eventually.
> 
> Instead a man presents himself confident, comfortable with himself, somewhat aloof, and he will notice which women are noticing hims, giving him her subtle clues, and if confident enough maybe he will approach such a woman to engage her in conversation hoping to spark her intersest, and hoping to get to know her better.
> 
> ...
> 
> Even outside a bar, if the good man were to meet a woman at church, or at the workplace (being careful I would hope in that particular scenario though), or even through network of his friends, the structure is the same.


See? PERFECT examples of Love Kindlers! Not all Love Kindlers are romance and smooshiness. Love Kindlers are the characteristics about you that initially attracted them in the first place. Okay many women do like flowers and candy, true, but even back in the day what usually first catches the eye is wit, charm, jokes, intelligence, confidence, caring enough about yourself to look and smell good, etc. I don't know of too many women who say, "Well he caught my eye attention by immediately offering to go to counseling some day." :rofl: This is precisely what a Love Kindler is. 



> And during the beginning of the relationship, is so much in the back of his mind, maybe this girl is the one, maybe not, so without even much thinking does he keep options open. This is simply saying, in the beginning of the dating, surely the man is not going to let himself go, to be a slob, or pay attention to other things to the neglect of attention to his woman. ANd of course, in the woman's mind, it is the same. ...
> 
> Over time, even years, into the relationship, is the million little things creeping in, a compromise here, a compromise there, because as time and energy is put into the relationship, the man is getting a little fearful maybe of losing this woman and having to start all over again. Again, in the womans mind, the same.
> 
> When there is compromises made, and not the perceived value in return, this builds resentment and kills sexual attraction. Over time, this will bury a relationship.


And this is PRECISELY Love Extinguishers. The zillions of little things about the True You that you lose when you give in and start to be someone else just to keep the peace. Lots of men are upset when the woman has kids and "lets herself go" but women are also somewhat upset by this--just in a different way. I can't speak for ALL women, but I can say "work with what ya got!" I don't expect my man to be Brad Pitt, or to look like him; I do expect him to dress well, be clean, smell good, care for his hair and teeth and nails, and do what he can do to look good. My guess is the fellas think similarly. We women worry so much about having a few curves or our weight when in real life, we are beautiful but we need to make the effort to work with what we got! (Work it girl.) 

Likewise for the Extinguishers BBW mentioned of being a slob and not paying attention. Right on! It kills the flame. 



> The finisse in all this, to make sure even over years and years, the FEELING that initially created sexual attraction is maintained. Call this chemistry, call this lust, call this love, whatever you wish.
> 
> And it is maintained by continuing to honor the structure of sexual attraction, a man strives to dominate, a woman strives to be dominated. This is merely the structure that was present at the beginning, when sexual attraction was on fire.
> 
> So for the good man, even years and years in to the marriage, for him to continue to make his woman feel she is being pursued by a confident, bold, and desirable man, a man that she feels has options.
> 
> For this keeps BOTH the good man and woman motivated and on fire for each other!


Okay I have to admit, after being physically abused as a child (my parents beat me daily) and by my ex-hubby, I had no desire whatsoever for a domineering husband, but I got the type of man whom I think might be close to NiceGuy's temperament. He is the federal head of our household who lovingly and respectfully works with me as his life partner. I can't honestly say I want to be "dominated," but what most/many women do not get is this: not being the federal head is a RELIEF, not a removal of rights! It is a burden we don't need to bear! And the trick, I think, is that balance of being the head, but also being respectful of the female's place and not becoming "domineering." Every day we both know that the other could choose to leave and be completely alright on their own. Every day we both know that we make the decision to stay. And that keeps the flame blazing.


----------



## BigBadWolf

breeze said:


> I also appreciate everyone's contributions to this forum. It has taught me a lot about myself.
> 
> As for the above BBW, I do believe you are correct in a way, but it still sounds like it's definitely from a man's perspective, which of course, it is .
> 
> There would be some element of feeling cared for, respected, appreciated in an EA for a woman, things she may be missing in her relationship, but mostly, I think a woman will look for the 'magic' she is missing in her world.


Remember as I said earlier in this thread, I am decided on a narrow focus on this board, as the need to right broken sexual structures seems to be a common theme, from relationships teetering on the brink of destruction from full blown physical affairs to the simple complaint of lack of sex, and anyting in between, all the results of losing the sexual attraction between the good man and woman in the relationship. This sexual attraction the function of honoring sexual structure, the man strives to dominate, te woman strives to be dominated.

So maybe in this focus, I do not intend to do this, but it happens, that maybe I am presenting only some two dimensional aspect to sexual attraction, as the male dominance does not mean a lack of cared for, respect, or appreciated, as these things, maybe like MEM11363 is best to explain, this balance of shifting between soft and gentle, and hard and firm and absolute. 

So much as light shows darkness, and darkness contrasts light. One without the other would make either meaningless, and one together with the other defines each other and also provides the infinite amount of shades of grey in between.

For let me say, the reaction of my woman, and even in things she has said, that my gentleness means so much as she as seen how dominant and dark I have the potential, and that makes my "holding back" so sensual for her. Again understand, to see us together, it would be assumed I am wrapped around her finger in so many ways. I am hoping this is not to be overlooked, as opposed to some imagined version of our relationship where I would be considered too controlling or overbearing.




> We are constantly bombarded with books, music, movies etc that show great passion and great love. Most people want that, but I guess if there are too many barriers between a couple after a while, it seems completely unobtainable for them.
> 
> I was watching a video clip for a song by Eminem - Love The Way You Lie. Why would a woman like this song? Maybe it speaks to a part of her that wants to be loved so totally that she brings such raw emotion from her partner, but in reality, no woman wants to be afraid of her partner. She wants the passion, not the violence, but the knowledge that there's a caged tiger waiting in her man that would fight and die for her would be intoxicating.


I agree with this!

So much is the finesse, to let the woman feel an experience the risk and passion and even hints of darkness and fear, yet the foundation of trust, as a great balance of emotion, and passion, and letting the good man and woman experience the primal emotions of sexual attraction, in the safety and trust of the relationship.

Just like this, that my wife is very much to remind me that my strength and my shoulders and muscles are very much intimadating and very much exciting both to her as a more petite woman, know and seeing some things I have the potential to do, yet do not do. She has reminded me many times this is physical sexually stimulating to her, and particularly if in the certain light some muscle striations or vasculation are catching her notice in my shoulders or arms, it even without much thinking or action she is reacting to me.

What to make of this, other than the balance of trust and fear, for what good is one without the other, the presence of trust must balance the need for trust to begin with, also a form of light and darkness, no?

Yes, this magic is very intoxicating to both the good man and woman indeed!



> If she can feel some of that passion from him in moments special to them, where she can feel like she is lighting a fire in him that no one else can, she will feel some magic in her relationship, something to last her through the never ending chores and daily grind. I don't think it's so much about feeling like a bad girl but more feeling like a sexual goddess to her man.
> 
> I don't see this would be present to a huge extent in all successful marriages, but to some degree, it would be there.


I would say this is the importance of explorin sexual fantasies together. Our fantasies are shadows of what we are desiring, yes and often missing, in day to day life. Much to be learned from each other trough our sexual fantasies.

Yes, "sexual goddess", I will admit a very much a theme in several of our fantasies together myself and my wife, but to her at least, to be catered to and "worshipped", while good from time to time, is not producing in her the wild passion that physical reaction to instead the scenerios where, well, things get a little darker and primal. For in her, at least as a woman, that is where the strongest "magic" thrives.



> Some women, and men too, don't realise how important it is to the marriage to have those magical moments. They think it's just sex, that their partner just wants to relieve an 'itch', but it's so much more than that. They want to be as close to their partner as it's possible to get, and know that their partner wants to be there just as much as they do.


In this we whole agree!

Thank you for your thoughts.


----------



## MEM2020

This is absolutely my theme - this bit about the beautiful and powerful contrasts is something I absolutely focus on. 

For instance - despite the fact that I make the effort to keep a "welter weight" boxer look - outside the bedroom my W ONLY sees me shirtless in our master bathroom either getting changed or taking a shower. She does have a thing for the shoulder/arm muscles and she never seems to tire of them as her access is limited. She asks me - "why is it at the beach you walk around with a shirt on?" 

And I give her 100 percent of my attention and tell her "because THIS - represents a lot of effort and focus. It is here for you and only you". So just as I conceal my desires utterly when she is tired or distraught, I also conceal that which creates desire so that when exposed the impact is greatly amplified. 

Seeing the body of a somewhat shy and reserved person is much more erotic than seeing the body of someone - male or female who struts around in ****ty/super revealing clothing all the time - including in public in an attempt to get as much attention as possible from members of the opposite sex. It does not feel special when it is given so casually, so freely and so publicly. 

So there is shy, and reserved and clothed. And there is naked and confident and maybe even aggressive or wild. And this contrast is powerful. 





BigBadWolf said:


> Remember as I said earlier in this thread, I am decided on a narrow focus on this board, as the need to right broken sexual structures seems to be a common theme, from relationships teetering on the brink of destruction from full blown physical affairs to the simple complaint of lack of sex, and anyting in between, all the results of losing the sexual attraction between the good man and woman in the relationship. This sexual attraction the function of honoring sexual structure, the man strives to dominate, te woman strives to be dominated.
> 
> So maybe in this focus, I do not intend to do this, but it happens, that maybe I am presenting only some two dimensional aspect to sexual attraction, as the male dominance does not mean a lack of cared for, respect, or appreciated, as these things, maybe like MEM11363 is best to explain, this balance of shifting between soft and gentle, and hard and firm and absolute.
> 
> So much as light shows darkness, and darkness contrasts light. One without the other would make either meaningless, and one together with the other defines each other and also provides the infinite amount of shades of grey in between.
> 
> For let me say, the reaction of my woman, and even in things she has said, that my gentleness means so much as she as seen how dominant and dark I have the potential, and that makes my "holding back" so sensual for her. Again understand, to see us together, it would be assumed I am wrapped around her finger in so many ways. I am hoping this is not to be overlooked, as opposed to some imagined version of our relationship where I would be considered too controlling or overbearing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this!
> 
> So much is the finesse, to let the woman feel an experience the risk and passion and even hints of darkness and fear, yet the foundation of trust, as a great balance of emotion, and passion, and letting the good man and woman experience the primal emotions of sexual attraction, in the safety and trust of the relationship.
> 
> Just like this, that my wife is very much to remind me that my strength and my shoulders and muscles are very much intimadating and very much exciting both to her as a more petite woman, know and seeing some things I have the potential to do, yet do not do. She has reminded me many times this is physical sexually stimulating to her, and particularly if in the certain light some muscle striations or vasculation are catching her notice in my shoulders or arms, it even without much thinking or action she is reacting to me.
> 
> What to make of this, other than the balance of trust and fear, for what good is one without the other, the presence of trust must balance the need for trust to begin with, also a form of light and darkness, no?
> 
> Yes, this magic is very intoxicating to both the good man and woman indeed!
> 
> 
> 
> I would say this is the importance of explorin sexual fantasies together. Our fantasies are shadows of what we are desiring, yes and often missing, in day to day life. Much to be learned from each other trough our sexual fantasies.
> 
> Yes, "sexual goddess", I will admit a very much a theme in several of our fantasies together myself and my wife, but to her at least, to be catered to and "worshipped", while good from time to time, is not producing in her the wild passion that physical reaction to instead the scenerios where, well, things get a little darker and primal. For in her, at least as a woman, that is where the strongest "magic" thrives.
> 
> 
> 
> In this we whole agree!
> 
> Thank you for your thoughts.


----------



## BigBadWolf

Affaircare said:


> This is possibly one of the best "manly" descriptions of Love Kindlers and Love Extinguishers I've ever found. There was something about you that attracted you two together, and along the way, that changed. Plan A/Carrot & Stick is exactly this: become again the man you were...the man you have the ability to be, and lovingly but firmly allow the disloyal to experience the consequence of their choices to treat the life partner with disdain! It's not aggressive, mean, alpha male, abusive, or vengeful at all. It is firm, loving, accepting nothing less than 100% faithfulness and respect.


Affaircare, thank you for your thoughts. These things, where I refer to dominance, it is indeed as a man speaking to a man. To have a reaction in him that is emotional resonating to his masculine nature, to inspire and let him understand, these things in him often that he feels he must supress or outgrow, instead these things to tap as the energy and solution to the problems that typify a falling away of sexual attraction. 

Also this is often provacative to a woman, which in irony is in a way proving the point to begin with. It is not intending to offend, but to say it is not unlikely to be provacative would also not be truth. 




> Okay I have to admit, after being physically abused as a child (my parents beat me daily) and by my ex-hubby, I had no desire whatsoever for a domineering husband, but I got the type of man whom I think might be close to NiceGuy's temperament. He is the federal head of our household who lovingly and respectfully works with me as his life partner. I can't honestly say I want to be "dominated," but what most/many women do not get is this: not being the federal head is a RELIEF, not a removal of rights! It is a burden we don't need to bear! And the trick, I think, is that balance of being the head, but also being respectful of the female's place and not becoming "domineering." Every day we both know that the other could choose to leave and be completely alright on their own. Every day we both know that we make the decision to stay. And that keeps the flame blazing.


What you are describing is perfect dominance!

What is often overlooked, and in all honesty beyond the scope of much of my discussion, the actuall mechanics of the man striving to dominate, and the woman striving to be dominated, are the reality that in behavior, they are practically identical.

It is a contest, a struggle of control. 

This, and honestly could be it's own thread or even it's own book, is exactly the friction between a man and woman that literally produces the spark of sexual attraction. Battle of sexes, sexual attraction, the spark, chemistry, lust, love, all this romantic terms, simply this. Natures contest, only in the balance of two matched will the friction ebb and flow, back and forth, to produce "sparks" of sexual attraction.

For if the man or the woman is either one a greater or lesser, the battle is quickly over, there is not ebb and flow, no sparks and no sexual attraction, but only either one unbalance, a "nice guy" not respected by a resentful woman, or the opposite unbalance, a domineering man not respecting an abused woman.

Notice again the mechanics are the same, only the reactions (emotional feelings) are different.

If a man is able to dominate a woman that is his good match, he feels emotionally and sexually secure. 

A woman that is dominated by a man that is her good match, she feels emotionally and sexually secure. (Notice like Affaircare is saying, RELIEF not a removal of rights.)

Opposite this, a woman that is not dominated is tending to feel insecure, and resentful. This leads to nagging, and increased "fitness testing" to her man.

And a man that is not able to dominate, is as well feeling insecure, and resentful. This leads to appeasment and begging to his woman.

Again, this is the structure of sexual attraction.

Thank you so much Affaircare!


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> All great points, but especially this. Real Love really isn't all that glamorous is it? Sometimes its actually hard work - especially when you throw a dose of real life (jobs, kids, money, etc) in the mix.


Yep. That's very true.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Well - then you're right back to "Am I not good enough?" And again, how can you not take this stuff personally?


By thinking of what someone else says as "just their opinion". That's all it is. Opinions are either valued or they're not. Applicable or unapplicable.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> (Sorry AC - no women allowed!!)


That's a boundary and very nicely put.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Yes. It can take a long time to learn about boundaries. But nowhere near as long to understand the impact of asserting them, that comes more or less instantly. Once asserted the whole dynamic of the relationship changes and the relationship itself changes. Our spouse does indeed see us as a very different, changed person, instantly. The marriage either survives living within the new boundaries or it doesn’t. The spouse takes the choice to work within them and makes personal changes to facilitate that or they leave. That is their choice.

Bob






Affaircare said:


> Actually quite the opposite, AFEH. Back then, in the past, I had no clue what a boundary was really and thus had none. When I took the time to face reality, even though it wasn't pretty, that's when I learned the tools to make things really successful...such as the need for personal boundaries.
> 
> In this instance NG was basically saying that if he was good enough to marry and stay with for 14 years, why should he change himself? That he understood changes for the better were good but that MEM and BBW's way of thinking suggested he wasn't "man enough" (paraphrasing). My point there is that MEM and BBW are not saying, "Hey man, you aren't man enough" because not being man enough is not even part of the discussion. It has nothing to do with whether someone is "man enough." It has to do with facing reality, even when it is ugly, and then getting the help you need to get to face those realities in a more healthy way RATHER THAN chasing The Illusion which never did really exist.
> 
> To my mind as a female person the MEM and BBW method does come across like pretty militant boundary posturing, and I'm not positive I'd like the way they present it (as I appreciate a firm but gentle approach), but that doesn't mean it isn't healthy. From what I can see it's as healthy as can be and their spouses seem to respond to it in a positive way.
> 
> 
> 
> Well YEAH! As I mentioned, I did not even understand the concept of what a boundary *was* until after the first PA when I started facing reality rather than The Illusion (and the first PA was after all the EAs) because I was in some denial myself. I knew it was bad and felt bad, but I so firmly held to the "happy family, handsome husband, successful couple" Illusion that I could not see it wasn't real! I have no doubt that if I had set a boundary after the first EA that it would have made a difference. I do believe the main difference would have been that I would not have tolerated that kind of treatment though....not that he would have "stopped" or "changed" or wanted to change. The difference would have been that it saved me from years of abusive treatment and disrespect.
> 
> Thus again I reiterate-- it is not boundaries I disagree with. Boundaries are very healthy. But I don't think boundaries mean someone isn't "man enough" and I do think that tying "man enough" to positive changes is like comparing apples to oranges. If I disagree with anything, it is trying to keep chasing The Illusion when that illusion is what never existed.


----------



## nice777guy

BigBadWolf said:


> So much as light shows darkness, and darkness contrasts light. One without the other would make either meaningless, and one together with the other defines each other and also provides the infinite amount of shades of grey in between.


BBW - when I first read this I thought it was great - and still do.

BUT - I don't really see shades of gray in most of your writings. In fact, it seems that you are saying that Masculine is Masculine, Fem is Fem - and there is no middle ground. That any blending of the two causes confusion and diffuses the passion between them. Grey is bad.

Yes - one defines the other. With no Masc, there is no Fem. No Light, no Dark. Gotcha.

But - I don't see the compromises in your writings that would bring about the shades in between. I don't see you discuss times that you defer to your wife regarding financial or sexual matters. Times in the bedroom where she may take control. I see no shades of grey.

Also, in my list above of what "Man-up" means - I see NOTHING in that list that doesn't also refer to women as well. Be honest, be faithful, be forthright about your sexual feelings and needs - these are not specific to men, but are universal qualities of strong individuals. 

"Write your name in the snow in cursive while peeing standing up" - that would be specific to men.

A GOOD woman also does not walk into a bar and attract a good man without some mystery and aloofness. A woman who appears needy and incomplete will attract the same type of man.

Are we sure these are truly gender issues, or is it more about personalities?

I've read enough lately to believe that men have been somewhat neutered over the last 40-60 years. The we've been discouraged from just being ourselves. We're told women want humorous and sensitive - but shown that when it counts they want confident and decisive. We're told it's OK to cry - but in hard times we are expected to be the strong shoulder. We are told to be "polite" - yet reading the sex forums online here - its become clear that "polite" isn't real great in the bedroom. Respectful - yes. Polite - no.

Food for thought...

NG


----------



## Deejo

You are reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy", correct?

I literally read that book at times with my mouth agape.

I like taking big concepts and cherry-picking items that I think I can best make use of, or strategies that will be successful for me.

NMMNG undoubtedly (for me) contained crucial information that I needed to see and understand. But ... I didn't completely agree with everything he had to say either.

Along the same lines, I bought "The Lay Guide" not because I wanted to become a pickup artist, but I knew without a doubt that the instincts that I possessed and thought were so good about reading women, what women are looking for and what they want, was off. In some cases, way off. 

I understand that BBW and MEM approach this with a narrow focus. I think it's even more admirable that they don't careen wildly off the rails in the scope of their advice. It would muddy the benefits of their message.

For those interested in diving even deeper to this subject, check out the 'Dads vs. Cads' references in mating theory. This isn't hocus pocus pick up artist or militant feminist stuff, this was done by real researchers and people with MD at the end of their names.

Women Like Cads for Sex, Dads for Mating

For a less scientific example, go on to hulu.com and look for "My Own Worst Enemy". It is a series with Christian Slater. Quick synopsis: He has two engineered personalities, one is a loving husband and devoted dad, the other is an assassin and spy. One personality is pure beta, the other is pure alpha ... and I have to say that it is amazing to watch Slater pull it off. It never looks forced. One guy is about as intimidating as a golden retriever, the other is like a wolf. The gimmick is that the personalities start showing up when they aren't supposed to. Specifically, the alpha personality sleeps with the beta's wife - and she gushes about their incredible sexual reawakening and thanks him. Of course the personality she tells this to is the beta. The beta personality cannot for the life of him figure out why everyone is attracted to the dangerous, aloof, sexually charged alpha.

Like it or not, this stuff is real, and true. MEM and BBW either inherently have been in on the secret due to their own individuality and persona, or they have done a lot of research.

Net, net, for me ... there were plenty of things I could have done, and things I shouldn't have done. And we can either couch those things in personal, emotional and behavioral terms such as being assertive, or compassionate, romantic vs. aloof, or we can talk about it from a higher, less 'personal' and more scientific and statistical level when we refer to sex rank and mating theory. 

Here is what I now know that I didn't previously. I thought in human terms, particularly the scope of my relationship with my wife - that we are two unique individuals (as AC pointed out we are individual, unique and special, just like everybody else;-)

That our feelings, emotions, and circumstances are/were, unique. But they aren't. They really, really, aren't.

Our personalities and circumstances may be different and unique, but the arc of what occurs in our relationship, the behaviors and outcomes are NOT unique.

And in looking for ways to win back, or let go of the women we love and have lost our bond with - acknowledging sex rank and mating theory is pretty friggin important, regardless of how we refer to it.

I do know myself. I am a swan. I am not an alley cat. I want one mate, not one a month. I want the depth of my relationships to be like an ocean, not a puddle. That's how I roll. So ... if I have to be a black swan, I'm willing to do that. I do not want to lose my mate due to my own oversight or fear of what is required to maintain DESIRE. I want to do the things that enhance desire, and minimize the things that do not. And if she doesn't recognize, respond to, or ignores those efforts ... then that is her problem. I will say goodbye look elsewhere.


----------



## BigBadWolf

nice777guy said:


> BBW - when I first read this I thought it was great - and still do.
> 
> BUT - I don't really see shades of gray in most of your writings. In fact, it seems that you are saying that Masculine is Masculine, Fem is Fem - and there is no middle ground. That any blending of the two causes confusion and diffuses the passion between them. Grey is bad.


Do not think that automatically grey is bad. Grey is where we live our lives, and have our relationships actually! 

INstead of thinking white is feminine or masculine, instead think of it more this way, that white is doing for someone else, black is doing something for yourself.

On this board, in the scope of my writings the bulk is just this, good men are often caught way out of balance, thinking only to do this or that "to make her happy", and wondering why between them there is not happiness. This is the exact same for lack of sex as well.

And in many ways it is the same for women. I do not know if you notice the occasional discussion I have with a woman, they are the same structures but only sometimes worded with slightly different words if even.



> Yes - one defines the other. With no Masc, there is no Fem. No Light, no Dark. Gotcha.
> 
> But - I don't see the compromises in your writings that would bring about the shades in between. I don't see you discuss times that you defer to your wife regarding financial or sexual matters. Times in the bedroom where she may take control. I see no shades of grey.


Again, I am deliberate to limit my scope, as my time and typing speeds are only so willing!

These tings, maybe they are interesting, but mostly I am not seeing a man in this day and age having much trouble defering to a woman. INstead I see it overused, to the point he gradually falls from being her man to being an old version of her child! This is NOT GOOD for sexual attraction!



> Also, in my list above of what "Man-up" means - I see NOTHING in that list that doesn't also refer to women as well. Be honest, be faithful, be forthright about your sexual feelings and needs - these are not specific to men, but are universal qualities of strong individuals.
> 
> "Write your name in the snow in cursive while peeing standing up" - that would be specific to men.
> 
> A GOOD woman also does not walk into a bar and attract a good man without some mystery and aloofness. A woman who appears needy and incomplete will attract the same type of man.


Often men fail to notice this, but most women in this day an age are forced at an early age to learn how to defend themselves emotionally, and not always with the most healthy ways but non the less. These things we are now calling setting boundries, and not letting yourself be take advantage of, sadly a young lady is often exposed to MUCH greater pressures and risks and abuses than most young boys.

A young boy, from a relatively healthy home, will not have had so many of the sexual and emotional abuses and demeaning social pressures that a young girl will have been contending with for many years. 

In the nutshell, women tend to be more keen and battle hardened on the emotional front than men. I know this is maybe a generalization, but it is the assumptoin I take in my relationship observations. In a typical marriage, a woman will be much quicker than a man to be confrontation, either in nagging or the dreaded "we need to talk" or even in the fact that the woman will file for divorce over twice as often as the man. These are all the reasons for this one characteristic.



> Are we sure these are truly gender issues, or is it more about personalities?


I speak only on the gender issues, as I have observed they as far as any statistical distribution curve to be assumed universal.

Personalities, well, I am the optimist that these personality things are sorting themselves out already between the man and woman during the courtship and early sexual parts of the relationship. Again, my assumptions, barring health reasons and if the relationship was at the begiinning sexually on fire, then if sex and happiness diminishes, it is due to not honoring the original structure of sexual attraction.



> I've read enough lately to believe that men have been somewhat neutered over the last 40-60 years. The we've been discouraged from just being ourselves. We're told women want humorous and sensitive - but shown that when it counts they want confident and decisive. We're told it's OK to cry - but in hard times we are expected to be the strong shoulder. We are told to be "polite" - yet reading the sex forums online here - its become clear that "polite" isn't real great in the bedroom. Respectful - yes. Polite - no.
> 
> Food for thought...
> 
> NG


It always depends on who you listen to.

Remember I always say actions speak louder than words. This is a very simple statement, but maybe it is as loaded as a minefield as well.

For instance, in the predominance of feminst influence in higher education, or in popular culture, sure there are pretty much as much useful advice for sexual attraction as would fit in a paper cup, if even that.

So in the words, if a man listens to someone telling him that as a man he needs to change or fit a mold, a man always needs to decide for himself the advice, whether it fits with his observations, and even better, his experiences, and then decide to accept or discard the information as he sees fit.

So whether it is feminist talk, or man up talk, or what have you, always see that the walk matches the talk. 

For I can assure you as far as time records history, even in mythologies and love stories, the sexual structure is always the same. Such as the knight slaying the dragon to win the maiden, or the face that is launching a thousand ships, these things are in the ways of our ancestors to communicate these subtle and powerful truths.


----------



## MEM2020

I slide back in forth between alpha and beta ALL the time. I am not "self aware" of being in beta mode as it is my normal "baseline" state. In "beta" my primary qualities are:
- Being fun/upbeat, pleasant and helpful
- Being entertaining/funny 
- Sharing interesting stuff I have recently learned/read. Asking thought provoking questions - to stimulate good conversation
- Being playful - this is a blended state - 50/50 alpha beta

I have a border area around most of my boundaries - I think of this as the DMZ - when someone comes into the DMZ they get my full attention and I calmly ask some questions as they are now nearing a boundary. If the answers are acceptable we move on without incident. If not, I explain how close someone is to an actual boundary. The nice thing about the DMZ is it gives someone a heads up that they are near a place they don't want to be with me. These conversations are characterized by comments like "I am not really comfortable with ..., or as a one off I might shrug and move on but if this were to become a pattern that wouldn't work for me".

If someone blows straight through the DMZ across a boundary then they put me into full blown alpha mode. Which is not yelling, screaming or cursing. It is directly conveying that my problem solving focus is now solely and completely on removing them from inside this boundary and making sure they hesitate before crossing it again. 

This approach has served me very well with my superiors at work, and with my boundary pushing high testosterone better half. In both cases I try very hard to ask questions that create a lot of discomfort. "Why would you think I would be ok with THAT?" asked in a tone that blends disbelief and irritation. And when they either try to change the subject or just don't answer I let the silence stretch to a painful degree.

The ONLY place my default behavior is alpha is in bed. Because it seems natural there and it works well. 




Deejo said:


> You are reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy", correct?
> 
> I literally read that book at times with my mouth agape.
> 
> I like taking big concepts and cherry-picking items that I think I can best make use of, or strategies that will be successful for me.
> 
> NMMNG undoubtedly (for me) contained crucial information that I needed to see and understand. But ... I didn't completely agree with everything he had to say either.
> 
> Along the same lines, I bought "The Lay Guide" not because I wanted to become a pickup artist, but I knew without a doubt that the instincts that I possessed and thought were so good about reading women, what women are looking for and what they want, was off. In some cases, way off.
> 
> I understand that BBW and MEM approach this with a narrow focus. I think it's even more admirable that they don't careen wildly off the rails in the scope of their advice. It would muddy the benefits of their message.
> 
> For those interested in diving even deeper to this subject, check out the 'Dads vs. Cads' references in mating theory. This isn't hocus pocus pick up artist or militant feminist stuff, this was done by real researchers and people with MD at the end of their names.
> 
> Women Like Cads for Sex, Dads for Mating
> 
> For a less scientific example, go on to hulu.com and look for "My Own Worst Enemy". It is a series with Christian Slater. Quick synopsis: He has two engineered personalities, one is a loving husband and devoted dad, the other is an assassin and spy. One personality is pure beta, the other is pure alpha ... and I have to say that it is amazing to watch Slater pull it off. It never looks forced. One guy is about as intimidating as a golden retriever, the other is like a wolf. The gimmick is that the personalities start showing up when they aren't supposed to. Specifically, the alpha personality sleeps with the beta's wife - and she gushes about their incredible sexual reawakening and thanks him. Of course the personality she tells this to is the beta. The beta personality cannot for the life of him figure out why everyone is attracted to the dangerous, aloof, sexually charged alpha.
> 
> Like it or not, this stuff is real, and true. MEM and BBW either inherently have been in on the secret due to their own individuality and persona, or they have done a lot of research.
> 
> Net, net, for me ... there were plenty of things I could have done, and things I shouldn't have done. And we can either couch those things in personal, emotional and behavioral terms such as being assertive, or compassionate, romantic vs. aloof, or we can talk about it from a higher, less 'personal' and more scientific and statistical level when we refer to sex rank and mating theory.
> 
> Here is what I now know that I didn't previously. I thought in human terms, particularly the scope of my relationship with my wife - that we are two unique individuals (as AC pointed out we are individual, unique and special, just like everybody else;-)
> 
> That our feelings, emotions, and circumstances are/were, unique. But they aren't. They really, really, aren't.
> 
> Our personalities and circumstances may be different and unique, but the arc of what occurs in our relationship, the behaviors and outcomes are NOT unique.
> 
> And in looking for ways to win back, or let go of the women we love and have lost our bond with - acknowledging sex rank and mating theory is pretty friggin important, regardless of how we refer to it.
> 
> I do know myself. I am a swan. I am not an alley cat. I want one mate, not one a month. I want the depth of my relationships to be like an ocean, not a puddle. That's how I roll. So ... if I have to be a black swan, I'm willing to do that. I do not want to lose my mate due to my own oversight or fear of what is required to maintain DESIRE. I want to do the things that enhance desire, and minimize the things that do not. And if she doesn't recognize, respond to, or ignores those efforts ... then that is her problem. I will say goodbye look elsewhere.


----------



## MEM2020

*true story*

One night I was on a long call with a good friend who she doesn't like. He and I talk frequently. She and I did not have plans and frankly she didn't "need" me for anything. But she gave me some direct, angry and aggressive body language which appeared directly related to the call. This is a very rare thing for her to do and - LOL - I have no idea what prompted this particular "boundary test". 

I figured "hey why disrupt my call - I am tired of the many comments I hear about how women are so much better at multi-tasking than men". So I multi-tasked. While having a friendly and laugh filled conversation with him I gave her a series of very focused blasts of body language hostility. And she immediately stopped glaring daggers at me. 

A half hour later I ended the call. About an hour after that she came up to me and said "are you mad at me?" And I just shrugged, smiled and said "not at all". Now we both knew exactly what had happened. Challenge - response - withdrawal. This is her path. I don't take it personally. This is how she is wired. If she wasn't funny and clever and kind and loving and ....., I might feel differently. But I wouldn't give up one of her pluses to subtract this particular behavior. 

I am confident that if I had cut the call short and gone and asked her if she was upset with me it would have reinforced this behavior. Hell - I think even if I cut it short and then we had a major argument it might have reinforced this behavior. Instead - 6+ months later and I have seen no repetition of it. 





MEM11363 said:


> I slide back in forth between alpha and beta ALL the time. I am not "self aware" of being in beta mode as it is my normal "baseline" state. In "beta" my primary qualities are:
> - Being fun/upbeat, pleasant and helpful
> - Being entertaining/funny
> - Sharing interesting stuff I have recently learned/read. Asking thought provoking questions - to stimulate good conversation
> - Being playful - this is a blended state - 50/50 alpha beta
> 
> I have a border area around most of my boundaries - I think of this as the DMZ - when someone comes into the DMZ they get my full attention and I calmly ask some questions as they are now nearing a boundary. If the answers are acceptable we move on without incident. If not, I explain how close someone is to an actual boundary. The nice thing about the DMZ is it gives someone a heads up that they are near a place they don't want to be with me. These conversations are characterized by comments like "I am not really comfortable with ..., or as a one off I might shrug and move on but if this were to become a pattern that wouldn't work for me".
> 
> If someone blows straight through the DMZ across a boundary then they put me into full blown alpha mode. Which is not yelling, screaming or cursing. It is directly conveying that my problem solving focus is now solely and completely on removing them from inside this boundary and making sure they hesitate before crossing it again.
> 
> This approach has served me very well with my superiors at work, and with my boundary pushing high testosterone better half. In both cases I try very hard to ask questions that create a lot of discomfort. "Why would you think I would be ok with THAT?" asked in a tone that blends disbelief and irritation. And when they either try to change the subject or just don't answer I let the silence stretch to a painful degree.
> 
> The ONLY place my default behavior is alpha is in bed. Because it seems natural there and it works well.


----------



## nice777guy

BBW & MEM - hoping to continue with the tone of honesty in this thread. A few questions, if you don't mind.

1) How old are you?

2) How old WERE you when you first became aware of the things that you are writing about, and what brought you to this level of awareness?

I've always believed I am more cerebral than most. But I will admit that I spend far too much time in my own head to know if I'm right. I don't talk enough to other people - ask other people enough questions.

Maybe everyone else I work with is working through the same stuff I am - really questioning their marriage, their place in life, etc. - or maybe they are just doing whatever comes up next.

I know why I'm here - why Deejo and Bob are here - and so many others. But you guys at some point decided to give this a lot of thought. You didn't just jump on this board for no reason and start typing, and it doesn't sound like you came here because you were trying to save your marriages.

Thanks!


----------



## MEM2020

I am 47. W is 47. 

We started dating 21+ years ago. 

I was always assertive/aggressive. I did not really grasp how to even try to use that to directly create "passion" in a clever way until 5 years ago. Before that my approach was simple and harsh. I would call it a 90/10 blend of effective beta and somewhat out of control alpha. I used to get angry/yell scream when she broke boundaries. About 50 percent of the time it worked and the rest it accomplished nothing or was counterproductive. 

Now I use technique and the conflict is much more fun and much less exhausting / hurtful. 

I have also learned that being very good with words can hurt you. I would often use words and logic and get a mediocre outcome. Now I lean heavily on the ancient language of body language and tone of voice. This reaches into the "inner circuit board" the one that REALLY drives female behavior. 

That said - my W was always willing to have sex because we simply had an understanding. And she is very much determined to be good/great in that area. However once I got the hang of the old language she started initiating a lot more and became much more "in love" with me. 




nice777guy said:


> BBW & MEM - hoping to continue with the tone of honesty in this thread. A few questions, if you don't mind.
> 
> 1) How old are you?
> 
> 2) How old WERE you when you first became aware of the things that you are writing about, and what brought you to this level of awareness?
> 
> I've always believed I am more cerebral than most. But I will admit that I spend far too much time in my own head to know if I'm right. I don't talk enough to other people - ask other people enough questions.
> 
> Maybe everyone else I work with is working through the same stuff I am - really questioning their marriage, their place in life, etc. - or maybe they are just doing whatever comes up next.
> 
> I know why I'm here - why Deejo and Bob are here - and so many others. But you guys at some point decided to give this a lot of thought. You didn't just jump on this board for no reason and start typing, and it doesn't sound like you came here because you were trying to save your marriages.
> 
> Thanks!


----------



## BigBadWolf

1. I am 39, W is 40. Married 21 years next month, dated 2 years prior to marriage.

2. Difficult to answer. INtellectually not until just 5 years ago maybe as far as putting the relationship exactly emotionally and sexually on par with the sexual structure I am speaking of, as fully aware and conscience of these things such as dominance and this connection to emotional connection.

As to the years dating, I will think about what the relationship was looking back with my eyes today: 

To say in maybe more details, yes we were young, but myself immediately I was aggresive in most areas of the relationship, as to very bluntly setting my boundries and insisting, and I know this will be controversial but I will say it in full disclosure, on very concrete behavior that I expected from my girlfriend. By any account today, yes I was controlling, but by far not in any way abusive, as I was very protective of my girlfriend.

I will say she was a little more open to experiment with alcohol and recreational drugs than I was (although very tame by today's standards!), and even some behaviors that I regarded as self destructive, in the areas maybe of excessive flirting, as she was practically the most classic sense very attractive in most standards, fit, blonde, blue eyed, smart and humorous, and catching the attention of many many other young men.

And I was very much in mind to clamp down hard on these behaviors that as I saw them not in her best interest, the substance use, and in my jealousy of course was very keen and aggresive to any other young men that I felt crossed MY boundries, and to this point, yes I was quick to get physical and never afraid to fight these others, and in this the reputation in my girlfriends social circles became, well, to not mess with her because her boyfriend is fiercely jealous and will strike at the drop of a hat!

Of course, her friends not understanding how and why of that she is so willing and letting me really GET AWAY with telling her this and that to do, saying "why you let him tell you what to do?" Understand this in context, my girlfriend was very much known to speak her mind, and NOT be told what to do, and was quick to say to another girl or boy very much her opinion. So in this way, yes she is very much headstrong herself, and so how was it questioned and noticed that I was all of a sudden having her so wrapped around my finger, so to say.

But regardless of these opinions she was without hesitation to defy and even distance herself from these friends and questioning influences, and more than willing (in hindsight wish I had seen this as obvious as today!), to do these things I was firm and insistent on, practically anything she would be willing to do for me!

And our sexual relationship was by any account, very much on fire 100 percent.

And regarding sex, know this was the one area I was certainly NOT controlling on. Very backwards to my writings today of course, but see I was very protective of her especially during our dating time, even to the point of wanting to make sure as not to take advantage of her (as I had and still do relatively "old fasioned" ideas about situations below the waist). But the contrast, was in that area was it very much HER in the driving seat, for the times alone to choose this or that, make no mistake she would suggest an evening that ended up with us spending time alone and physical, very much of her drive and passion. 

Note: TOday, in our marriage life, even with all the dominant speak and aggression that is suggested in my writings, understand between me and her, and from her end and behavior, these sexual relationship is still very much driven by HER passion and response. That is why I am quick to challenge any notion of a woman having less sex drive than a man. When the structure is in place, the man better be prepared to rise to his wife's expectations!

Anyway, back to our story. Much like many other relationships, with us comes marriage, and of course the struggles of life, career, and children. Over the years, yes sex is very good, but after each child and over time, is the sex going down, and resentment building. By most definitions, during this time I was every bit a "nice guy" without any doubt.

So know also during this time, there are certain women in my close family struggling with effects of a violent sexual abuse, and another aquaintence with a relative caught up in a form of prostitution, and even another female aquaintence in an abusive relationship. And my nature to ask some tough questions, and in lending a hand in conversations and research in these areas, also did I see some pieces of the puzzle that only later come to make a pattern, as the effects and emotional connections between physical aggresiion, sexual aggresion, and not obvious feminine response to tese cause and effects. During this time I am seeing the shadows of these things I speak of today, but not yet forming the intellectual connection.

And okay, if I am going to be totally honest, Iwill say during te late '90s or so, there waas this movie "Fight Club", and anyone seeing this movie knows this character "Tyler Durden". So it was during this time of my asking myself why I am not happy, an why is sexual frequency so low and resentment so high, did in even my own mind did I create this person in myself, one to I imagine was the man that would do, what I imagine, do all these things I WISHED I could do, and would without flinching call me every time I did something I did not want to do, or did not do someting I wanted to do.

I know tis may sound silly, but even only in a few weeks and months after seeing this movie, so much a profound effect did it have on me, and these effects translated into my actions, this woud be exactly in what I described earlier, the immediate reaction in my wife from me to stop appeasment, and start confronting. And of course I have already typed out earlier my wife's reaction to all this.

And in these years, from say 2001-2004, is when I am also studying some elements of Kama Sutra, and other writings and theories of sexual connections, because I determined myself that I would focus as much energy and effort to seek and graps and posses any and every sexual tool and ability, as to never return to the nice guy and sexless and resentment stage, but also to discover myself how far and how deep and how high and how dark can this thing go, which is the sexual relationship bewteen a man and a woman.

And all this, even over the last seven years, did I also see these same patterns, cause and effect, of the balance bewteen dominance and submission, of give and take, in these things did I want to distill down to startling predictable patterns. 

Even during these times, when several male coworkers engaged in spiralling marriages, did I lend a hand with some of these thoughts and suggestions, and did they see a dramatic imporovement, and to this day are these men are married happily and sex is where they are desiring it.

And so even on the 20th anniversary, did my wife and myself have a weekend getaway that would make a teenage couple blush, and even during our dinner and walks in shops and such, over this time did no less than a dozen strangers comment on how we related, and how "in love" were we, and were we recently married or what. And to see their reactions to see we are married 20 years and still behaving so, PRICELESS!

And so it was, after this getway, and in introspection I guess feeling quite amazed at the turnaround in our relationship when how a decade before did I often wonder about what to maybe experience with other women, or why life was so mundane and where would our marriage even last.

And so, where as in most internet forums I am interested in with my other hobbies, and read and post, I did a google on "marriage forums" and found this place. 

And spent a few hours in total horror at the sad scenarios and even sadder and destructive advice given, thread after thread, forum after forum.

And so I resolved, maybe instead to spend an hour a week or so at a hobby forum, perhaps to lend a hand here or there, to share with some good men and women some of what I have discovered.

And so almost a year later since last November here I still am! 






nice777guy said:


> BBW & MEM - hoping to continue with the tone of honesty in this thread. A few questions, if you don't mind.
> 
> 1) How old are you?
> 
> 2) How old WERE you when you first became aware of the things that you are writing about, and what brought you to this level of awareness?
> 
> I've always believed I am more cerebral than most. But I will admit that I spend far too much time in my own head to know if I'm right. I don't talk enough to other people - ask other people enough questions.
> 
> Maybe everyone else I work with is working through the same stuff I am - really questioning their marriage, their place in life, etc. - or maybe they are just doing whatever comes up next.
> 
> I know why I'm here - why Deejo and Bob are here - and so many others. But you guys at some point decided to give this a lot of thought. You didn't just jump on this board for no reason and start typing, and it doesn't sound like you came here because you were trying to save your marriages.
> 
> Thanks!


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## okeydokie

you boys are writing a book


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## cb45

I saw this on web long b4 i ever came to TAM. Its all summed up best in its opening communique. (tks for reminder of it deejo)

Women's relationships today follow 
a very predictable pattern:

-They push men for commitment

-They get what they want

-They lose interest in sex 

-They become attracted to someone else 

-They start cheating 

-They become angry and resentful 

-They begin telling their partners that they need time apart

They blame their partners for their behavior...and eventually, after making themselves and everyone around them miserable for an indefinite, but usually, long period of time, they end their relationships or marriages. ----Michelle Langley 


Thanks to all yer efforts here to openly/honestly share yer feelings/ideas/vulnerabilities Deejo, MEM, BBW, et al., re: this sensitive area in our male lives. I earnestly hope to to/achieve as much for me and others some day (maybe here?)with the same degree of honesty.

There are several pts i wish to add or elaborate on if i may and in no way are they meant/intended to be critical or adversarial in nature, should they contrast yer own views.

I try (and fail too often) to see many of my struggles in life as spiritual battles both internally and externally. This is oh so true when it comes to my marital rel'shp (or lack of one, am afraid).
What drives me insane (when i lose focus on all things ARE spiritual between humans) is how my W can act loving, caring, considerate, etc, for months, weeks, days at time, and then of a sudden "stop on a dime" and become the complete OPPOSITE for the same equal time period with little or no logical reason at all !!!

I know its not just a 100% women thang to do this but, by most gals own admissions i've read/heard in my life (including the ladies of "The View" --per article/transcript) they are in no ways guilty or bashful over this "right" of theirs to be this way from time to time via any convenient excuse!?

Its been my understanding that we humans are conduits for the spiritual world (aka free-will), where we can exhibit all kinds of behavior/emotions/beliefs displays which baffle our peers at times as we swing from the pos - neg in an instant. 
Yet it is most distressing to me to see how two loving caring christian people, as M & W, can claim God as their father, and Jesus as their King and yet berate, ignore, despise, mock, ridicule, lie to, manipulate, violate and be violent to, etc
(need i add more?). We've all been guilty of this "swing," some more than others i gather as i read here at TAM.

Thus i put it to you who are perplexed at yer H or W's behavior, to consider the spiritual realm when u see the Dr Jekyl - Hyde transformations that lead to yer angst/trials, separation, or divorce. Yet do yer own research, via books or the net on the topic of spiritual warfare, as the authors are more factual/persuasive than i.

i agree w/ much i have read here on only two pages (1st & last)
but they are merely replays/recounts,observations, suggestions, manipulations, solutions(?), for some individuals here, compared to whats available from the maker of heaven & earth if only u'd research his books, his scriptures on this very subject of marital relations.

I know if i am to continue having peace, i must do so often - always, each and everyday, that is read, pray and love, for God is love. Not just the warm n fuzzy kind, but the strong fortress kind as well.

When i do these things (well), i succeed. When i don't, i fail.

I dont have all the answers but, i know where to find them.

I don't know yer spiritual status/walk, but i am entreating you if you are lonely, broken hearted, confused, etc, consider Jesus who was meek and lowly of spirit while on earth, to be your guide to a peace that passes all understanding. You'll find him anywhere in the bible, from Genesis to Revelation.

Shalom.


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## MEM2020

CB,
My W is a religious Christian. I will only speak for us. My behavior - which is very much not meek, causes her to feel "in love" with me and strengthens our marriage. Were I to be kind and gentle and "meek" consistently she would fall out of love with me and it would weaken/ultimately destroy our marriage. 

As my goal is to continue this marriage until death do us part, I follow the path that makes such an outcome most likely. If your path differs and if it works for you, that is great. Based on your description it is not working so well. Women want a strong man. And that oftentimes means someone who will assert himself powerfully when she is dishing out behavior she would never want to receive. 

Being humble means that you are not "full of yourself", it does not mean ever tolerating bad behavior in your family. Last weekend the priest did his entire homily on this very subject. I thought he did a great job. 




cb45 said:


> I saw this on web long b4 i ever came to TAM. Its all summed up best in its opening communique. (tks for reminder of it deejo)
> 
> Women's relationships today follow
> a very predictable pattern:
> 
> -They push men for commitment
> 
> -They get what they want
> 
> -They lose interest in sex
> 
> -They become attracted to someone else
> 
> -They start cheating
> 
> -They become angry and resentful
> 
> -They begin telling their partners that they need time apart
> 
> They blame their partners for their behavior...and eventually, after making themselves and everyone around them miserable for an indefinite, but usually, long period of time, they end their relationships or marriages. ----Michelle Langley
> 
> 
> Thanks to all yer efforts here to openly/honestly share yer feelings/ideas/vulnerabilities Deejo, MEM, BBW, et al., re: this sensitive area in our male lives. I earnestly hope to to/achieve as much for me and others some day (maybe here?)with the same degree of honesty.
> 
> There are several pts i wish to add or elaborate on if i may and in no way are they meant/intended to be critical or adversarial in nature, should they contrast yer own views.
> 
> I try (and fail too often) to see many of my struggles in life as spiritual battles both internally and externally. This is oh so true when it comes to my marital rel'shp (or lack of one, am afraid).
> What drives me insane (when i lose focus on all things ARE spiritual between humans) is how my W can act loving, caring, considerate, etc, for months, weeks, days at time, and then of a sudden "stop on a dime" and become the complete OPPOSITE for the same equal time period with little or no logical reason at all !!!
> 
> I know its not just a 100% women thang to do this but, by most gals own admissions i've read/heard in my life (including the ladies of "The View" --per article/transcript) they are in no ways guilty or bashful over this "right" of theirs to be this way from time to time via any convenient excuse!?
> 
> Its been my understanding that we humans are conduits for the spiritual world (aka free-will), where we can exhibit all kinds of behavior/emotions/beliefs displays which baffle our peers at times as we swing from the pos - neg in an instant.
> Yet it is most distressing to me to see how two loving caring christian people, as M & W, can claim God as their father, and Jesus as their King and yet berate, ignore, despise, mock, ridicule, lie to, manipulate, violate and be violent to, etc
> (need i add more?). We've all been guilty of this "swing," some more than others i gather as i read here at TAM.
> 
> Thus i put it to you who are perplexed at yer H or W's behavior, to consider the spiritual realm when u see the Dr Jekyl - Hyde transformations that lead to yer angst/trials, separation, or divorce. Yet do yer own research, via books or the net on the topic of spiritual warfare, as the authors are more factual/persuasive than i.
> 
> i agree w/ much i have read here on only two pages (1st & last)
> but they are merely replays/recounts,observations, suggestions, manipulations, solutions(?), for some individuals here, compared to whats available from the maker of heaven & earth if only u'd research his books, his scriptures on this very subject of marital relations.
> 
> I know if i am to continue having peace, i must do so often - always, each and everyday, that is read, pray and love, for God is love. Not just the warm n fuzzy kind, but the strong fortress kind as well.
> 
> When i do these things (well), i succeed. When i don't, i fail.
> 
> I dont have all the answers but, i know where to find them.
> 
> I don't know yer spiritual status/walk, but i am entreating you if you are lonely, broken hearted, confused, etc, consider Jesus who was meek and lowly of spirit while on earth, to be your guide to a peace that passes all understanding. You'll find him anywhere in the bible, from Genesis to Revelation.
> 
> Shalom.


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## nice777guy

BBW - you are not the first person I've talked to who saw Fight Club and took it as more than just an average movie.


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## cb45

To MEM,

sorry if i implied "weak" method was/is used by me. actually to the contrary is my case. I roar or am a PITA depending on yer pt of view. that is where i usually fail, (to some degree, tho i think i enable her w/ this negt'y or feed it as she likes) not weakness (usually).

its def more complicated than i can shortly tell here w/ onlookers.


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## MEM2020

*How reading BBW has helped me*

CB,
The two things I have consciously focused on more, since reading BBW are:
- Greater use of body language in response to bad/aggressive behavior from my W. What once would have been a long drawn out and frustrating "discussion" about what she was doing is now handled via a strong body language warning. Quick, effective and much less stressful for both of us.
- The ULTIMATE measure of a dominant male is his "SELF" control. When you can effectively control your emotions, your anger AND the means by which you communicate your boundaries you are way more powerful/dominant.

For example I used to employ a higher/high volume when in conflict. I rarely do that now. Being loud implies a lack of "SELF" control that is not helpful. Now I use tone, combined with body language and VERY FEW words to make my point. 






cb45 said:


> To MEM,
> 
> sorry if i implied "weak" method was/is used by me. actually to the contrary is my case. I roar or am a PITA depending on yer pt of view. that is where i usually fail, (to some degree, tho i think i enable her w/ this negt'y or feed it as she likes) not weakness (usually).
> 
> its def more complicated than i can shortly tell here w/ onlookers.


----------



## BigBadWolf

So it is exactly right, the use of body language that is so important in communication, even confrontation, to say many things without words, and especially in sexual communication.

When at times I have made my woman physically excited by staring hard at her for just a minute or two, she has commented many many times and swearing it is some magic I am able to be doing.

But what maybe wife is not always noticing, perhaps all day long I have been subtle but deliberate in my actions and body language, so even the little things, I am hinting and flirting and communicating with her body, so to speak, when even her conscience thinking is not so much catching all this played out at all.

Arousal without touching, this is what I call it in my mind, and have worked and studied and trial and error over the years to learn what is working for my woman to do this, to her amazement.

I have said many times to my wife, when she laughs and says she not so much understanding why I can so often get her arousal in this way, I just tell her not to worry, that her body and I have already an understanding.

This is humourous of course between her and I, but also there is some powerful truth as well.


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## cb45

I think i know what u mean, as i have purposely or accidentally done so too w/ alpha body language technique in the past.

did u read this in a book or was it strictly here on TAM (BBW, Althok et al) that u got this info? maybe there is an entire picture display available via the 'net. do u know of sites?


----------



## AFEH

cb45 said:


> I think i know what u mean, as i have purposely or accidentally done so too w/ alpha body language technique in the past.
> 
> did u read this in a book or was it strictly here on TAM (BBW, Althok et al) that u got this info? maybe there is an entire picture display available via the 'net. do u know of sites?


Allan and Barbra Pease have an enterprise built on the subject of body language Allan & Barbara Pease Official Site. Dominant and submissive body language plus many others are illustrated and described.

It is a fascinating subject. In one of the books “Body Language: How to read other’s thoughts by their gestures” there’s around 100 “signals” and situations listed and illustrated.

There’s also the “behaviour over time” language. This is about a person changing their behaviour which many of us notice in our spouse, don’t know what’s happening but get a feeling in our gut that something’s wrong in our relationship.

When we ask what’s happening we get “words” that fit neither with their body language or their behaviour and can become exceedingly concerned and confused. I’m at an age and have the time where I can look back on my marriage and see that I missed so many signals, indicators, that at times things were very wrong.

I think if men feel the need to gain some “wisdom of the woman” then they should undertake to learn body language and behaviour. These subjects are more the domain of women, it comes naturally to them as an inheritance from when we were living in caves and genetically by the way their body is formed.

Body language and behaviour over time “tell the truth” and are very difficult to hide and deceive with. On the other hand we are easily deceived by words in the form of denials, blame, lies and deceits.

Bob


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## cb45

amen AFEH, amen. and tks for yer response & link.


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## Summer Rain

Although I am a newbie to this board, I just want to thank everyone for sharing with such honesty and for the simple but very, very deep truths contained within this thread.

In particular, BigBadWolf's advice and words have, within days of putting them into effect, made a noticeable difference to the relationship I have with my wife. Amazing.

:smthumbup:


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## Deejo

Reread this entire thread. Bumping it because I'm pulling a quote from it. 

Lots of good stuff here. Thanks again to those who shared.


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## greenpearl

I found out more secrets after reading novels. 

Yeah....................................


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