# Fitness Tests



## Conrad

There's a whole portion of the raging ongoing discussion that intrigues me. And, once I managed to attract the love of my life (it had been a long-term interest), the conflict began in earnest.

This was 4 plus years ago.

Just about everything was tried to "fix" things.

Logic

Emotional appeals - including pleading

Behavioral adjustments

More than a bit of anger

Yet, no matter what was tried, nothing "really worked". And, when I say nothing "worked", I'm talking about what could/would keep alive the spark in the relationship.

Periodically, I would hear about her dissatisfaction with our sex life. Of course, those who read and understand here know exactly what was going on. It was one long fitness test.

Endless compromises... endless deals. Endless negotiations.. endless dissatisfaction with results.

Most men dread "day 100" of any relationship, as this is when some say the "wheels start to come off". It's now easy to understand what was/is going on.

Perhaps subconsciously, the tests begin. Are you man enough to maintain my interest? Are you man enough to be a father to the children? Are you man enough to control yourself, hold a job, be faithful, and stand up to others.

If you are, then prove it by standing up to me!

If you want to be my warrior, then show me your grace under pressure.

And, if you fail to control yourself, prepare for further tests, as I bore into your psyche and see what your fiber truly is.

Becoming a "nice guy" in response to this pressure if the road to hell. Trying to be perfect. Trying not to annoy. Trying everything in your power... stretching yourself to stay out of trouble.

No one is perfect. You will be tempted to lie and conceal - even to badmouth your wife to others as the pressure rises, as the very essence of your manhood gets swept away.

And, in the process, your wife will lose interest in this doormat of a man she has in her house.

This board is littered with the stories of men who have failed these tests. I was definitely one of those.

What I can tell you - for a fact - is that it is never too late to start passing them. Miles of ground can be made up in a very short time. But, first, you simply must be right with yourself and be able to conquer your fear. Conquer your fear of losing. And, when I mean losing, I mean losing her.

By conquering your fear of losing her, you will win her.

And, if she still doesn't respond? What have you lost? You're merely prepared for the future.


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## SimplyAmorous

Conrad said:


> By conquering your fear of losing her, you will win her.
> 
> And, if she still doesn't respond? What have you lost? You're merely prepared for the future.


Well spoken :iagree::iagree::iagree:


Makes me think of a friend of mine who is always calling me about her X --she is so afraid of loosing him again, she bends over backwards, forever trying to please him -when he is nothing but rude & inconsiderate in return, he is nice & loving to her when he wants something (usually sex) then is off again pursuing another, but she LOVES him- can't get him out of her system. I just want to shake her sometimes, she can not see how counterproductive this is & how it is hurting her. She has literally lost herself, becoming a doormat in his presence to please. I KNOW he finds it a weakness in her, and he will keep using to his advantage. He would have more respect for her if she stood up for herself & got over him. I guess it can go both ways - even women can learn these things. The female handbook is "Why men marry *****es " equivlent to "No More Mr Nice Guy"


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## unbelievable

The world is green because it's fertilized with the decaying corpses of billions of men who have killed themselves trying to put a grin on a woman's face. I'm 49, crime free, drug free, Masters degree, Top Secret clearance, twice decorated combat vet, consistently employed for the past 35 years, my present and future finances are secure. My dogs love me. My kids love me. If I don't measure up to some lofty expectation a woman has, she can bite me. I'm taking care of all my own basic needs anyway and should I have the need for a woman, there are millions out there. Surely, I must be acceptable to one of them.


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## Conrad

unbelievable said:


> The world is green because it's fertilized with the decaying corpses of billions of men who have killed themselves trying to put a grin on a woman's face. I'm 49, crime free, drug free, Masters degree, Top Secret clearance, twice decorated combat vet, consistently employed for the past 35 years, my present and future finances are secure. My dogs love me. My kids love me. If I don't measure up to some lofty expectation a woman has, she can bite me. I'm taking care of all my own basic needs anyway and should I have the need for a woman, there are millions out there. Surely, I must be acceptable to one of them.


A sincere thanks for your service to the nation.

Your post leaves me with a question.

Do you agree with the premise of my post? Or are you saying it's not worth the effort to learn this?


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## AFEH

A long post for you Conrad. I even got tested after nearly 40 years of marriage. Had a “mate” round for dinner. Wife had set the table up with her at one end, me at the other and the guy in the middle. It had never been setup that way before. Soon into the meal she started to antagonise and provoke me from the other end of the table. I’m pretty aware these days so I didn’t respond. I sat there thinking wow she’s set this whole scene up, must have taken some planning that. I knew she was in an EA with him although she’d denied it. I didn’t respond. After I told her I ain’t fighting for you. You want to go with him you go. I actually bought her a ticket back to our home country and I bought it out of her money with her card. Felt really good that. Foolishly and for the wrong reasons I got her back out again.

Bob


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## unbelievable

Conrad,

I don't know. Part of me thinks a relationship either works or it doesn't. People who are self-absorbed and who need powder sugar blown up their backsides are probably not worth the trouble they require. Life doesn't have to be that complicated or difficult. I bust my hump to no avail while I see men who barely qualify as human beings celebrating their 25th anniversary.


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## Conrad

unbelievable said:


> Conrad,
> 
> I don't know. Part of me thinks a relationship either works or it doesn't. People who are self-absorbed and who need powder sugar blown up their backsides are probably not worth the trouble they require. Life doesn't have to be that complicated or difficult. I bust my hump to no avail while I see men who barely qualify as human beings celebrating their 25th anniversary.


There is no doubt that one size does not fit all. We simply cannot "own" the emotional response of another person. That's a formula for insanity.

I'm talking about what we can do - and what I've experienced.

There's no telling whether I have many anniversaries to go either. I would prefer to grow old with her. The other side of that arrangement isn't up to me. But, I now understand the playbook.

I appreciate your post.


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## Conrad

Trenton said:


> Ever play a game when the other person is unaware that a game is being played. If only one partner has a play book with a set of rules and the other partner does not have either it seems the game is not only unfair but possibly a fantasy.


Watch out when they catch on.


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## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Ever play a game when the other person is unaware that a game is being played. If only one partner has a play book with a set of rules and the other partner does not have either it seems the game is not only unfair but possibly a fantasy.


Isn’t that what’s happening in the mind of a person who is having an affair? The disloyal has their rule book that the loyal has no idea about. In the rule book there’re rules like “Never own up”. “Never tell the truth”. “Deceive, Deceive, Deceive”. “Blame loyal for what I’ve done” etc. etc. It’s almost like a campaign book. The disloyal plans, manipulates and schemes to get what they want. They wear different clothing, but keep it hidden from the loyal. They tell lies about where they’re going and why they are going there.

Some call it a “fog”. Whereas I say it’s all done exceptionally consciously and with knowing intent.

Bob


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## Conrad

Trenton said:


> I don't have a play book, I thought you did Conrad. Bluntness is a problem with me. If I've got something in my mind my husband knows about it.
> 
> Bob, absolutely.


We all know what is on their minds.

Simply answering the question or solving the problem is where things go dramatically wrong.


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## geo

good stuff,


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## MEM2020

T,
That isn't quite the point. My W is also blunt. Generally speaking she does not play games. I define a "fitness test" as:
- W takes an unreasonable position
- I logically and thoroughly explain why it is not ok
- She attempts to "brute force" her way through the conversation

At this point who is "right" has nothing to do with it. Now we purely have a contest of wills. 

I have no idea why she does this. From reading this is a fairly common female behavior. All I know is I have gotten really experienced at working through these without having to break a lot of emotional glass.... 




Trenton said:


> I don't have a play book, I thought you did Conrad. Bluntness is a problem with me. If I've got something in my mind my husband knows about it.
> 
> Bob, absolutely.


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## Conrad

MEM11363 said:


> T,
> That isn't quite the point. My W is also blunt. Generally speaking she does not play games. I define a "fitness test" as:
> - W takes an unreasonable position
> - I logically and thoroughly explain why it is not ok
> - She attempts to "brute force" her way through the conversation
> 
> At this point who is "right" has nothing to do with it. Now we purely have a contest of wills.
> 
> I have no idea why she does this. From reading this is a fairly common female behavior. All I know is I have gotten really experienced at working through these without having to break a lot of emotional glass....


MEM,

I've broken enough for both of us.

But, if I may, the focus you and the Wolf bring to this subject makes it clear what the new course need be.

And, the first 3 minutes of any flight are the roughest.

But, the results are there.

Count me among the converted.


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## greenpearl

How much do you men understand women? 

Sometimes we just yell out something which hurts but we don't mean it. I have done it. 

Sometimes we are just acting childish and spoiled, and we want our men's attention and love. If we get it, we are silent. A hug, a kiss, a touch, fix all the hurt. 

Sometimes we are being unreasonable, you just need to be firm, but don't call us down, don't yell at us, don't scream at us. We scream and yell because we are unreasonable, if you start screaming and yelling, you are not much better than us, that's called self-control, sorry, men, I know I am being unfair to require men to be better in this area, but if you want us women to respect you as men, you have to learn to master this skill. 

When we are bothered by work or family stuff, you don't need to agree that we are right, but you also don't need to be defensive against us, that's just going to stop us from telling you what's bothering us!

Please always remember than we have periods, and we tend to be very moody before our periods, never pick up a fight during those days, because we are lost and confused and don't know why we feel so low those days. We don't like it either.


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## BigBadWolf

Conrad said:


> There's a whole portion of the raging ongoing discussion that intrigues me. And, once I managed to attract the love of my life (it had been a long-term interest), the conflict began in earnest.
> 
> This was 4 plus years ago.
> 
> Just about everything was tried to "fix" things.
> 
> Logic
> 
> Emotional appeals - including pleading
> 
> Behavioral adjustments
> 
> More than a bit of anger
> 
> Yet, no matter what was tried, nothing "really worked". And, when I say nothing "worked", I'm talking about what could/would keep alive the spark in the relationship.
> 
> Periodically, I would hear about her dissatisfaction with our sex life. Of course, those who read and understand here know exactly what was going on. It was one long fitness test.
> 
> Endless compromises... endless deals. Endless negotiations.. endless dissatisfaction with results.
> 
> Most men dread "day 100" of any relationship, as this is when some say the "wheels start to come off". It's now easy to understand what was/is going on.
> 
> Perhaps subconsciously, the tests begin. Are you man enough to maintain my interest? Are you man enough to be a father to the children? Are you man enough to control yourself, hold a job, be faithful, and stand up to others.
> 
> If you are, then prove it by standing up to me!
> 
> If you want to be my warrior, then show me your grace under pressure.
> 
> And, if you fail to control yourself, prepare for further tests, as I bore into your psyche and see what your fiber truly is.
> 
> Becoming a "nice guy" in response to this pressure if the road to hell. Trying to be perfect. Trying not to annoy. Trying everything in your power... stretching yourself to stay out of trouble.
> 
> No one is perfect. You will be tempted to lie and conceal - even to badmouth your wife to others as the pressure rises, as the very essence of your manhood gets swept away.
> 
> And, in the process, your wife will lose interest in this doormat of a man she has in her house.
> 
> This board is littered with the stories of men who have failed these tests. I was definitely one of those.
> 
> What I can tell you - for a fact - is that it is never too late to start passing them. Miles of ground can be made up in a very short time. But, first, you simply must be right with yourself and be able to conquer your fear. Conquer your fear of losing. And, when I mean losing, I mean losing her.
> 
> By conquering your fear of losing her, you will win her.
> 
> And, if she still doesn't respond? What have you lost? You're merely prepared for the future.


Very well said and I am wishing every good man on this forum will read this many times and study the nuances and structures that this post outlines, indeed many many problems are really only one problem.

The "spark", the only way to have a spark is friction.

The friction between a man and woman, this is the spark of sexual attraction.

Any man or woman who never fight, never tangle, never conflict, there is nothing to ignite a spark.

But what can we say about "make up sex"? WHere is this roaring fire from, than a spark of conflict leading to it? 

And indeed, to begin passing fitness tests, this is not a months or weeks or even days process, it is right here, right now, the opportunity to turn around the resentment filled sexless relationship is immediate!

And exactly right, to not be afriad to "lose" your woman, when the good man realizes this in his actions, behavior, and most imprortant, his attitude, what this potential can lead to emotionally and sexually between him and his woman, I cannot type out on this family forum! 

Conflict and confrontation, to the good man, become a master of these.

THen fitness tests, they are not longer any dreaded stumbling blocks, they then are the opportunities and gateways to unleashing passion and sexual experiences between the good man and woman unbelievable, sensual erotic dark and explosive!



Conrad said:


> MEM,
> 
> I've broken enough for both of us.
> 
> But, if I may, the focus you and the Wolf bring to this subject makes it clear what the new course need be.
> 
> And, the first 3 minutes of any flight are the roughest.
> 
> But, the results are there.
> 
> Count me among the converted.


This is heartening.

The results are there, absolutely.

Once the man sees from his woman this cause and effect, there is nothing more needing to be said, as experiential is the only way to unerstand these things, logically speaking they are simply not going to fit. 

All good men reading this forum, I can not say this enough, learn not only to embrace conflict, but become a master of confrontation.

A fitness test, it is not a logic test, it is attitude test.

A woman, she will respect the man that is comfortable with himself, with such a man, indeed his woman is secure and able to lower her defenses. 

Imagine the kind of actions and behavior of a man, that allow this in his woman, and make these actions and behavior the reality.

Confident, calm, firm, humorous, in control of himself and the situation.


Conrad, you are sharing much that many other good men will benefit to see and understand for themselves. Thank you.


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## nice777guy

So do we believe these tests are done consciously or subconsciously?

Is an Emotional Affair itself a test? Or is this usually the result of too many previously failed tests?


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## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> So do we believe these tests are done consciously or subconsciously?
> 
> Is an Emotional Affair itself a test? Or is this usually the result of too many previously failed tests?


I think they are both. 

With regard to an EA, I think you are correct with your latter point. It can be the result of consistently failing tests.


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## Conrad

Trenton said:


> Well, of course.


I wonder why all the work to keep such men off balance.


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## Conrad

Deejo said:


> I think they are both.
> 
> With regard to an EA, I think you are correct with your latter point. It can be the result of consistently failing tests.


I actually think that's true also.


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## BigBadWolf

They are definitely both.

With my wife, only in recent years have I got her to willingly admit a time or two openly that she will do or say deliberately something on purpose to push my button, especially if I am making her feel that I am too passive or uninterested in her (sexually/emotionally).

Otherwise, mostly the fitness tests, as I understand them, they are done from a woman more of habit or intuative, and not from logic.

So for the good man, I will sum up what I understand these fitness test to be, just this:

That a woman, she is loving (needing) to see her man demonstrate himself. 

If she is not seeing him demonstrate himself from his own accord, then she WILL create an opportunity for him to show his mettle. 

These opportunities for her man to shine, is the fitness test. 


An EA, this is not merely a test.

An EA, this is a woman already moving on to another man meeting her needs, her emotional connection.

A woman, she is not going to be emotionally connected to more than one man at a time, this will be the man that not only is passing her tests, but showing her interest and giving her emotional/sexual fulfillment.


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## BigBadWolf

Okay, this is just the perfect example of how to fail a fitness test completely, and the spirally crash and burn afterwards.

Notice how this woman immediately takes control of the conversation from even her first question, and the poor fellow consistently gives all authority and control and sense of approval to this woman, and claims none for himself.

He never had a chance. 

YouTube - Cake Boss - Harassing Snooki


Okay, just found this on youtube searching "Sh!t test".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37wd8by5xMA

I may need to see this movie all the way through, as this is text book classic man/woman interaction.

Also I am surprised how much of this type of relationship fitness/sh!t test video on youtube. I wish to have several hours now to investigate this material!


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## Conrad

Damn Wolf,

That may be the most enjoyable scene from the movie (except when DeCaprio dies).

Thanks


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## Deejo

Conrad said:


> Damn Wolf,
> 
> That may be the most enjoyable scene from the movie (except when DeCaprio dies).
> 
> Thanks


For the best. Relationship never would have worked.


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## Conrad

How "compatible" are those qualities?

Shouldn't those qualities be put to productive use?


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## nice777guy

So Trenton - are you acknowledging the fitness tests with your post above? Do you think you ever test your husband?


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> constantly


How's he holding up?


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Depends on the day but let's face it,* if he was holding up to my standards* I wouldn't have ever come to TAM to begin with. Our relationship has its challenges.


This isn't a knock on you at all. But you just framed the crux of the problem. Many guys focus too much on meeting 'her' standards instead of defining, and meeting their own.

That's a sh!t test in a nutshell.


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## Conrad

I think many women react with horror when someone with the moniker "BigBadWolf" has so much insight into their methods.


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## nice777guy

Trenton - does your husband know what you are doing?

Its one of those things that - when I first read about it - made no sense. It still seems a bit "off" to me, but there is definitely some truth to this theory. Much more than I would have ever believed before.


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## Conrad

Trenton said:


> It's not what you think at all Conrad. It's not that he has the insight it's that he lacks the understanding that is needed to put that insight to good use.
> 
> My husband is the best man I have ever met in my entire life, point blank. Some of his qualities floor me in their remarkableness and I look up to him like you/nor he would believe. I admire him and have never felt sex was a duty, always a pleasure. I appreciate him and enjoy spending time with him more than spending time with any other.
> 
> When I test him it always comes from emotional need and desire. He can't really fail, has never failed a test that I can think of. I'm being honest here.
> 
> That's the good stuff. His inability to respect me when it comes to his job will be the end of us if anything ever ends us and I would be devastatingly sad if this is what happens. He can't balance his family with his work and has never been able to do so. After fourteen years with him there are days, like today, when I doubt my ability to withstand it anymore. Days when all the good things can't possibly outweigh the repetitive one bad, constant thing. Neither of us is willing to yield so where does that leave a couple?


Tell me about it.

There may be a 3rd way - as opposed to one of you "winning".


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## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> It's not what you think at all Conrad. It's not that he has the insight it's that he lacks the understanding that is needed to put that insight to good use.
> 
> My husband is the best man I have ever met in my entire life, point blank. Some of his qualities floor me in their remarkableness and I look up to him like you/nor he would believe. I admire him and have never felt sex was a duty, always a pleasure. I appreciate him and enjoy spending time with him more than spending time with any other.
> 
> When I test him it always comes from emotional need and desire. He can't really fail, has never failed a test that I can think of. I'm being honest here.
> 
> That's the good stuff. His inability to respect me when it comes to his job will be the end of us if anything ever ends us and I would be devastatingly sad if this is what happens. He can't balance his family with his work and has never been able to do so. After fourteen years with him there are days, like today, when I doubt my ability to withstand it anymore. Days when all the good things can't possibly outweigh the repetitive one bad, constant thing. Neither of us is willing to yield so where does that leave a couple?


I've seen people post on this board before about a spouse changing their mind about having children after marriage. That's the type of situation where I could see someone just walking away. There's not much room to compromise - you either have a kid or you don't.

Sounds like you guys have some room to negotiate. It shouldn't be an "either this or that" type of situation.


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## Conrad

Trenton said:


> The saying...sometimes when you win you lose. This is always true. But I've never looked at it as winning. I've looked at it as all the days when I was so sad and angry because he ignored what I have been saying over and over and over and over and over. I don't want to win, I want to be heard.


That's a bit different than what you first said.

Has he ever done any courses with Stephen Covey?

Habit #6 - "Seek first to Understand, then be understood"

Since he's a business guy, Covey puts this in a way that men can understand.

I guarantee it's worth a shot to look up and present.


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## Conrad

Trenton said:


> Hmmm I doubt it. He's not a relationship explorer like I am but I will have a look at it and show it to him.


This is the key thing.

It will help HIM in business with subordinates, supervisors, and/or customers.

A gentle nudge can move him towards application elsewhere.

Introduce it by telling him you found something that can help him at work.

He may already have heard of the 7 Habits (by Covey) - it was highly popular around 1990. But, these "public habits" - win, win or no deal, seek first to understand, etc. could really help his career.

You'll hit need #2 (interest in his stuff) and gain his ear for additional applications.

(I know how to sell)


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## Trenton

Thank you Conrad. I will do.


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## Conrad

Trenton said:


> Thank you Conrad. I will do.


Please let me know how he responds.

Sounds like someone I'd really like.


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## Deejo

Decided I wanted to share this one ... as bizarre as it is.

Daughter's birthday party this Sunday.

I shared in another thread that ex has been in non-stop sh!t test mode with her man - and he has not fared well.

I know this because she tests me too - and I pass, now that I'm all studied up. As a result she feels comfortable and at ease with me, and
unsure and anxious with TOM ... exactly the dynamic we talk about when it comes to passing or failing fitness tests.

Please note this isn't about trying to win my ex back. We've got 2 small kids, and a special needs child. We interact ... a lot. We always will.
That, and I'd be lying if I said it wasn't just plain old fun. 

So anyway, originally she was not going to invite TOM to the party due to the weird factor, she initially discussed it with him and apparently although expressing he would like to attend, he quote; "didn't want Deejo to be uncomfortable".

I took my son out last night to buy his little sister a gift. When I take him back home and get the kids into bed, she tells me that she decided to ask him to come. Without skipping a beat, I indifferently say "That's fine."
She smiles and says, "I knew you'd be fine with it. But you know what? I really don't think he will. He needs coddling. You don't." (I'm thinking how's this for ironic?)
I say, "So if I see him looking uncomfortable, you want me to give him a supportive hug?" She laughed and said "Probably, because he definitely isn't getting one from me. 
You know how I am with these things. I'm going to be herding 10 little girls. He said he wanted to be here. I'm not going to have time to make sure he's ok with everything. I want to see how he does.
As stupid as it sounds, seeing how he does at the party will tell me which direction we're heading in."

She said those words. She invited her boyfriend to the birthday party as a fitness test, that she actually expects him to fail by acting uncomfortable or needy. And she told her ex-husband exactly what she's doing.

So for anyone still wondering whether or not fitness tests are reality or the delusions of men, there you have it. Ultimate Fitness Test, featuring friends, family, the husband, the wife, the lover, and a herd of screaming children.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo,

Because your ex tested you that doesn't mean that a blanket statement of all us women do it should apply, or is fair.
Some do, some don't. Period.


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## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Deejo,
> 
> Because your ex tested you that doesn't mean that a blanket statement of all us women do it should apply, or is fair.
> Some do, some don't. Period.


You just did it ... You know you do it. You want to do it again ...

All of you do it. I'm not interested in fair. Why are you challenging my desire to make blanket statements over an activity in which you clearly participate on a regular basis? 

Can you distinguish wicked smaht me from wicked funny me yet? I can use visual cues if that will be of help. Here ... :moon:


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## Therealbrighteyes

Enlighten me then on how I test. 

And then englighten me on how men don't test since "clearly" they don't.

You're wicked alright.


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## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Enlighten me then on how I test.
> 
> And then englighten me on how men don't test since "clearly" they don't.
> 
> You're wicked alright.


You establish interactions with your husband from which you hope for a particular outcome. Your very recent occurrence aside, giving him the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" was itself a fitness test.
All those times that you have shared that you have set up a scenario hoping that he will respond with confidence, love and enthusiasm, and doesn't? And you are frustrated and disappointed, and left wondering why you bother? Fitness tests. The difference in your case, is he has not exhibited behavior to match what he says. You will go on challenging that, rightfully so, until he does.

I don't know if I'm prepared to say that guys never fitness test. Where guys are concerned, I don't think they do it until the relationship has already moved into unstable territory.

Women will offer fitness tests to assure that the relationship remains firmly entrenched in consistent, stable, behavior. If it doesn't, the tests will increase.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo,

Interesting food for thought. I have never thought of my actions that way. Is it so much a test per se or is it hope? Not sure.

If guys don't (in general) fitness test then what takes that place?


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## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Deejo,
> 
> Interesting food for thought. I have never thought of my actions that way. Is it so much a test per se or is it hope? Not sure.
> 
> If guys don't (in general) fitness test then what takes that place?


I'm assuming that your 'hope' is that he will demonstrate behavior that increases your sense of well being and security with him, and by doing so making him more attractive to you. Regardless of how overt, you are challenging the terrain and his mettle in terms of how he handles himself, and thus, it's impact and effect on you.

When I think of a woman sh!t testing a man, it's about getting a sense of his measure. Is he independent or whipped? Is he decisive or unsure? Is he attentive or out where the buffalo roam? Is he confident or insecure? Do his actions and behavior emulate strength and security, or fear and neediness?

I don't think that the woman always has to like the outcome for the guy to pass the test.

Most guys are neither consciously or subconsciously going to look for ways to test a woman in an effort to feel more secure about the relationship ... unless the guy is already feeling insecure about the relationship. And in that case if he starts actively looking for reassurance? He sends out the needy vibe, which she generally won't respond well to.

Again, I really can't emphasize enough that sometimes this stuff is as subtle as a whisper, and sometimes it's like a bat to the side of the head.


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## BigBadWolf

Deejo,

You have in your relationship with your ex, the unique opportunity to peer behind the curtain, such as this scenario so clearly spelled out.

It is beneficial to many good men at this forum for you to share, to see these things in action, so they too can understand it is not something make believe, but very real.

Fitness test, when a woman is interested in a man, they will come.

All good men reading this, understand this, do not see these test as anything other then what they are, the opportunity to display your mettle.

So when they come, display your mettle with all your might, and do so with boldness, confidence, and learn to enjoy them.

Fitness tests, they are merely opportunities, so see them as the opportunities they are!


----------



## BigBadWolf

Deejo said:


> When I think of a woman sh!t testing a man, it's about getting a sense of his measure. Is he independent or whipped? Is he decisive or unsure? Is he attentive or out where the buffalo roam? Is he confident or insecure? Do his actions and behavior emulate strength and security, or fear and neediness?


Sh!t test = dominance test.




> I don't think that the woman always has to like the outcome for the guy to pass the test.


Don't imagine a woman thinks or feels like a man, in sexual nature, as different as east from west.

Sh!t tests, they are not intellectual or logical, a woman often doesn't realize it when asked outright what she is even doing.

It is a test of feeling, of emotion.

A man passing test producing FEELINGS his woman of security and sexual attraction.

A man not passing test producing FEELINGS of resentment, emotional withdrawal, angst, and restlessness.



> Most guys are neither consciously or subconsciously going to look for ways to test a woman in an effort to feel more secure about the relationship ... unless the guy is already feeling insecure about the relationship. And in that case if he starts actively looking for reassurance? He sends out the needy vibe, which she generally won't respond well to.


I cannot imagine a better explanation.

A man certainly will judge a woman, and a woman judge a man.

Judging, is logical, intellectual.

Fitness tests, they are emotional, sexual, primal.



> Again, I really can't emphasize enough that sometimes this stuff is as subtle as a whisper, and sometimes it's like a bat to the side of the head.



Well said.


----------



## Deejo

In the scheme of things I actually think she was going for a '2 for 1'.

I actually think she wanted to see if I would be jealous or somehow wounded. This also stems from her recently becoming aware that I'm in a relationship.

I recognize that this could appear incredibly unhealthy - or at some level, even make me look like a doormat.

That's certainly not how I feel about it. I did want to share it simply because it was utterly so glaring. 

She is feeling insecure about her relationship, and as a result, purposely wants to inject the boyfriend into circumstances that she believes he won't fare well in, and outright stated that how he handles himself will determine the direction of their relationship.

I have no comment either way if it is fair or not. But nonetheless, I still find this stuff fascinating.


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> You just did it ... You know you do it. You want to do it again ...
> 
> All of you do it. I'm not interested in fair. Why are you challenging my desire to make blanket statements over an activity in which you clearly participate on a regular basis?
> 
> Can you distinguish wicked smaht me from wicked funny me yet? I can use visual cues if that will be of help. Here ... :moon:


What is all this 50/50 crap and talk of "fairness"

ALL IS FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR.

And, sometimes, they feel like the same damned thing.


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> Decided I wanted to share this one ... as bizarre as it is.
> 
> Daughter's birthday party this Sunday.
> 
> I shared in another thread that ex has been in non-stop sh!t test mode with her man - and he has not fared well.
> 
> I know this because she tests me too - and I pass, now that I'm all studied up. As a result she feels comfortable and at ease with me, and
> unsure and anxious with TOM ... exactly the dynamic we talk about when it comes to passing or failing fitness tests.
> 
> Please note this isn't about trying to win my ex back. We've got 2 small kids, and a special needs child. We interact ... a lot. We always will.
> That, and I'd be lying if I said it wasn't just plain old fun.
> 
> So anyway, originally she was not going to invite TOM to the party due to the weird factor, she initially discussed it with him and apparently although expressing he would like to attend, he quote; "didn't want Deejo to be uncomfortable".
> 
> I took my son out last night to buy his little sister a gift. When I take him back home and get the kids into bed, she tells me that she decided to ask him to come. Without skipping a beat, I indifferently say "That's fine."
> She smiles and says, "I knew you'd be fine with it. But you know what? I really don't think he will. He needs coddling. You don't." (I'm thinking how's this for ironic?)
> I say, "So if I see him looking uncomfortable, you want me to give him a supportive hug?" She laughed and said "Probably, because he definitely isn't getting one from me.
> You know how I am with these things. I'm going to be herding 10 little girls. He said he wanted to be here. I'm not going to have time to make sure he's ok with everything. I want to see how he does.
> As stupid as it sounds, seeing how he does at the party will tell me which direction we're heading in."
> 
> She said those words. She invited her boyfriend to the birthday party as a fitness test, that she actually expects him to fail by acting uncomfortable or needy. And she told her ex-husband exactly what she's doing.
> 
> So for anyone still wondering whether or not fitness tests are reality or the delusions of men, there you have it. Ultimate Fitness Test, featuring friends, family, the husband, the wife, the lover, and a herd of screaming children.


Deej,

This is some of the most delicious irony I've ever read.

And, you don't find yourself drawn back towards her - at all?


----------



## Deejo

Conrad said:


> Deej,
> 
> This is some of the most delicious irony I've ever read.
> 
> And, you don't find yourself drawn back towards her - at all?


Of course I do. :FIREdevil:
There is simply no need, anguish, or angst associated with it any longer. Our relationship is relaxed and positive - under the circumstances.

I would not pursue my ex. Did that. Didn't work so well. It's much more interesting to see if I can get her to pursue me ... that and I am very happy with my GF.

When she told me about her wicked plan, I made it clear that I have no desire or interest on influencing the outcome of her relationship. I said "Your problems are between the two of you. I have no interest in being part of that equation."

My kids are invested in this guy. She pulled him in way too soon. He has never gotten comfortable with the fact that ex and I do still continue to interact. We go to team meetings and appointments for our son. We remain a team on that front. Always will.


----------



## Conrad

deej,

Let me put it to you straight.

The whole kid thing would have my stomach in knots if I suddenly discovered how I could thrive in a relationship with my ex.

Sounds like you two had much more going for you than my ex and I ever did.

And, you actually understand her now.

Your kids would be thrilled.

And, you admit you really loved her.

I'll stop now, but I'm sure you know what I'm saying.


----------



## Deejo

One of my big life takeaways over the last two years?

Never say never, and Anything's possible.

Would I get back together with my ex now? No. She isn't done with what she needs to do, and I don't want to have any influence or impact on whether or not she gets there.

If she does what she needs to do, and I haven't found my own 27 yr old with a nose-ring? Everybody wins if we could sort it out.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Tsk, Tsk, Deejo.....she turns 28 in April. Clearly too old for you then.


----------



## Conrad

lack of emotional understanding of woman as if the man is unable to fully merge with a woman's compatible yet different but equally good qualities.

Trenton,

You wrote the above.

What do you mean by "compatible"?

From what I've seen, they're incompatible - and most of the people in this forum struggle mightily to actually get it.

Not all of our qualities are "good".

In fact, there are parts of us that really suck hind teat.


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> One of my big life takeaways over the last two years?
> 
> Never say never, and Anything's possible.
> 
> Would I get back together with my ex now? No. She isn't done with what she needs to do, and I don't want to have any influence or impact on whether or not she gets there.
> 
> If she does what she needs to do, and I haven't found my own 27 yr old with a nose-ring? Everybody wins if we could sort it out.


Diogenes search has ended.

I'm just thinking about how much more sense life makes in the rear-view mirror.


----------



## Deejo

Conrad said:


> Diogenes search has ended.
> 
> I'm just thinking about how much more sense life makes in the rear-view mirror.


Which way, am I virtuous or hopelessly corrupt?

I'm convinced that even if hindsight were in fact foresight, it still wouldn't be as useful as looking back after the fact instead of knowing what happens before.

It's 5 pm, if that made sense, I'm going home.


----------



## Conrad

Hit the road.


----------



## Affaircare

> _Originally Posted by Trenton
> Depends on the day but let's face it, if he was holding up to my standards I wouldn't have ever come to TAM to begin with. Our relationship has its challenges._
> 
> This isn't a knock on you at all. But you just framed the crux of the problem. Many guys focus too much on meeting 'her' standards instead of defining, and meeting their own.
> 
> That's a sh!t test in a nutshell.


A-FREAKING-MEN! :allhail: I'm not worthy! 

It took me FOR-EV-ER to realize that seriously, the world does not revolve around me. Again, I'm not putting ya down Trenton at all, but the part of respect that I never "got" as a middle-30's woman was that my husband's standards were (this part is important) EVERY BIT AS IMPORTANT AS MINE!!

You'll laugh but here's the story of how I finally figured out that lesson. My exH and I had our last child when I was 30yo. I used to yell at him that he didn't "wash the bottles right" or "put on the diaper right" because I would put the pins in the front, and he taped them on the side. Finally one night, in exasperation, he yelled at me: "WHAT IS THE F-ING DIFFERENCE if the pin is in front or on the side? Either way YOU aren't changing the diaper, the pee gets caught, and it's MY way!" 

Right there, as if a lightbulb went off in my head, I realized he was right! The diaper stayed on the kid! He was actually making the effort to help! And as a parent to the child, his way of putting on the diaper may not have been the same as mine, but it was JUST AS VALID! Exactly who had died and made me the Diaper Goddess? :rofl:

I know that's a crazy way to learn that lesson, but I started to actually think about all kind of other things he did that we quibbled about and DARN if it wasn't true that somehow I thought I was in-charge and everything had to be to MY standard when he was an adult too! That meant, if it was going to be a relationship of equal adults, not mom-child dynamics, I had to let him express his standard and accept it as just as important as mine. EQUAL. Then we could hit mutual understanding...because then we were mutual.


----------



## Affaircare

Deejo said:


> ...Can you distinguish wicked smaht me from wicked funny me yet? I can use visual cues if that will be of help. Here ... :moon:












OH GOD--I'm blinded! 1) the shock burned my retina and 2) the reflection hit me right in the eyes!


----------



## nice777guy

Affaircare said:


> My exH and I had our last child when I was 30yo. I used to yell at him that he didn't "wash the bottles right" or "put on the diaper right" because I would put the pins in the front, and he taped them on the side. Finally one night, in exasperation, he yelled at me: "WHAT IS THE F-ING DIFFERENCE if the pin is in front or on the side? Either way YOU aren't changing the diaper, the pee gets caught, and it's MY way!"


AC,

Not sure that your ex did a lot of things right, but I really like this.

Since I've been married, I have chosen the wrong parking space at restaraurants, shopping malls, etc - about 90% of the time. Didn't know that parking was so easy to screw up - unless you are bumping into cars or people.

I've learned to let it go - wish she would!


----------



## Deejo

Now see ... I'll never let that stuff go again. 
"Why'd you need to park so far away?"
Response: "You need the exercise." or "I'm waiting for you to insist on driving so you can park closer."

Birthday went off without a hitch.
I am seriously considering giving TOM my copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy". He did fine, but the dude tries way too hard. Was a funny moment where the ex challenged him about finding something that she couldn't remember where she had put. It was a mini Mexican Standoff. I thought it was hilarious.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Now see ... I'll never let that stuff go again.
> "Why'd you need to park so far away?"
> Response: "You need the exercise." or "I'm waiting for you to insist on driving so you can park closer."


I just hate the idea of circling the lot for 5 minutes so that we can be 25 feet closer to the building.



Deejo said:


> I am seriously considering giving TOM my copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy". He did fine, but the dude tries way too hard. Was a funny moment where the ex challenged him about finding something that she couldn't remember where she had put. It was a mini Mexican Standoff. I thought it was hilarious.


Much better to be on the outside looking in! Give him the book, and highlight some things for him!!!


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> Now see ... I'll never let that stuff go again.
> "Why'd you need to park so far away?"
> Response: "You need the exercise." or "I'm waiting for you to insist on driving so you can park closer."
> 
> Birthday went off without a hitch.
> I am seriously considering giving TOM my copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy". He did fine, but the dude tries way too hard. Was a funny moment where the ex challenged him about finding something that she couldn't remember where she had put. It was a mini Mexican Standoff. I thought it was hilarious.


You would actually help him?


----------



## Deejo

Conrad said:


> You would actually help him?


I'm undecided.
Were I to do so, it would be under the auspices of "Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't."

This guy is a known quantity. I don't question his commitment to the ex, or my kids for that matter.

What I do know with certainty, if my ex started marching a parade of unknown, or low quality men into the lives of my kids, the space between us would turn to tigers.


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> I'm undecided.
> Were I to do so, it would be under the auspices of "Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't."
> 
> This guy is a known quantity. I don't question his commitment to the ex, or my kids for that matter.
> 
> What I do know with certainty, if my ex started marching a parade of unknown, or low quality men into the lives of my kids, the space between us would turn to tigers.


I have to admit, I'm impressed.

Seriously, that's a very mature view.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Trenton said:


> Ever play a game when the other person is unaware that a game is being played. If only one partner has a play book with a set of rules and the other partner does not have either it seems the game is not only unfair but possibly a fantasy.


:iagree: Great, short and to the point post. Two can't play the game when only one has the set of rules! Loved this.


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> I have to admit, I'm impressed.
> 
> Seriously, that's a very mature view.


And he's got a magnificent chest...or so he's claimed...


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> And he's got a magnificent chest...or so he's claimed...


To quote Ron Burgundy; "I'm kind of a big deal. People know me ... I have many leatherbound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."

They both thanked me for 'making it easy'.

Daughter's actual birthday is today. She wanted "all of us" to go out for dinner. As weird as it sounds, I actually see this as a testament to how well we pulled this off where the kids are concerned. This is their family ... and although they have questions about it, they also feel at ease, loved, and safe.

So anyway, onto the 'Kill your inner Nice Guy exercise'

I get the call yesterday, ex confirming about dinner with her, the kids and TOM - because that is what dear daughter would like.
My response:
"Maybe best if you just tell her, or let me tell her that daddy has to work."

Ex:"It's your daughter's birthday."

Me:"I realize that. I'd love to go, if you're alright having me as a guest?"

Ex: "What do you mean a guest?"

Me: "Well I'm assuming you'll be going anyway, are you ok with picking up my tab? Your paying for dinner, right?"

Ex: "Oh ... I hadn't really thought about that. Let me get back to you."

Haven't heard a word since. Wonder why that is?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> And he's got a magnificent chest...or so he's claimed...


Jesus's abs, huh?


----------



## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Jesus's abs, huh?


Right down to the spear wound.


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan said:


> Jesus's abs, huh?


I'm thinking more Dolly Parton.


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> I'm thinking more Dolly Parton.


No not abs or pecs, got her bum though ...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> I'm thinking more Dolly Parton.


Huh? So Deejo has tits?


----------



## nice777guy

There's a post around here somewhere in all of this mess in which he has indeed made that claim.


----------



## Deejo

My claim is as follows:
"I'm a recovering nice guy. I no longer fear sh!t tests or saying the wrong thing for fear of conflict or rejection. They are actually pretty fun and funny.

I also have magnificent breasts."


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> My claim is as follows:
> "I'm a recovering nice guy. I no longer fear sh!t tests or saying the wrong thing for fear of conflict or rejection. They are actually pretty fun and funny.
> 
> I also have magnificent breasts."


Yeah, if that were the case, I doubt he would every leave the house. Too busy playing with them. Scanner falls into that catagory as well.


----------



## nice777guy

Scanner would probably find his breasts to be too old...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> Scanner would probably find his breasts to be too old...


:rofl:


----------



## Deejo

Dolly Parton says Hi ... :moon:


----------



## Deejo

Got the call. Looks like I'm getting dinner for free.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Got the call. Looks like I'm getting dinner for free.


Very, very well played!!!

:smthumbup:


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> To quote Ron Burgundy; "I'm kind of a big deal. People know me ... I have many leatherbound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."
> 
> They both thanked me for 'making it easy'.
> I shook his hand, pulled my ex into an embrace and tongue kissed her ... then I left. That's how I roll.
> 
> Daughter's actual birthday is today. She wanted "all of us" to go out for dinner. As weird as it sounds, I actually see this as a testament to how well we pulled this off where the kids are concerned. This is their family ... and although they have questions about it, they also feel at ease, loved, and safe.
> 
> So anyway, onto the 'Kill your inner Nice Guy exercise'
> 
> I get the call yesterday, ex confirming about dinner with her, the kids and TOM - because that is what dear daughter would like.
> My response:
> "Maybe best if you just tell her, or let me tell her that daddy has to work."
> 
> Ex:"It's your daughter's birthday."
> 
> Me:"I realize that. I'd love to go, if you're alright having me as a guest?"
> 
> Ex: "What do you mean a guest?"
> 
> Me: "Well I'm assuming you'll be going anyway, are you ok with picking up my tab? Your paying for dinner, right?"
> 
> Ex: "Oh ... I hadn't really thought about that. Let me get back to you."
> 
> Haven't heard a word since. Wonder why that is?


Damnedest thing, isn't it?

My wife's ex won't even attend his grandson's birthday.

He's all about himself.


----------



## Deejo

No TOM. I didn't know this until I arrived. She decided it was 'creepy'. We had a wonderful dinner as a family. Smiles, laughter all around. Absolutely no negativity. It was great. We went Dutch. 

Love those kids. They make us laugh.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> No TOM. I didn't know this until I arrived. She decided it was 'creepy'. We had a wonderful dinner as a family. Smiles, laughter all around. Absolutely no negativity. It was great. We went Dutch.
> 
> Love those kids. They make us laugh.


:smthumbup:


----------



## Affaircare

When my daughter graduated college, yes of course my ex was there. Now amazingly he had not bothered to be there to help with her homework or rides to or from school or living arrangements or social life or sports for several years--but surely this graduation was all about him and how HIS DAUGHTER was getting a diploma. :lol: Anyway, we didn't have a ton of cash for the reception but wanted something nice, so we called ahead to a local chinese buffet, rented their "conference" room, and he paid for his family, we paid for ours, and any friends of hers who came paid for who they brought. 

A good time was had by all (most of all...by HER )


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I have not carefully read all of this thread, but am interested in all of you FITNESS TESTED UNDERSTANDING MEN - to analyze Me & my husband's relationship a bit. No matter how I would like to believe he is NOT one of these "Nice Guys" but one of these "GOOD MEN" you all speak about, his unaggressiveness still trips me up. 

Deejo said this & I want to pick apart some of this >>>


Deejo said:


> When I think of a woman sh!t testing a man, it's about getting a sense of his measure. *1)* Is he independent or whipped? *2)* Is he decisive or unsure?
> *3)*Is he attentive or out where the buffalo roam? *4) *Is he confident or insecure? *5)* Do his actions and behavior emulate strength and security, or fear and neediness?


*1)* My husband is probably more Whipped (by me) than I even want to admit. 
*2) *I don't think he is unsure of himself but chooses "peace- no conflict" over what he should sometimes. He is not someone who questions himself, or what he wants though. 

Mundane example : Many times he will remind me we don’t have something because I thought we shouldn't buy it at the time, like a nice 4 slice toaster at a Flea market - I didn't care to buy it - he thought we should -- and he easily let ME have the final word. So now our toaster is dead & we have to go out & buy one for $25 more. Of coarse I am kicking myself . 
I kindly remind him HE COULD HAVE EASILY BOUGHT THIS. He can buy anything he wants! It is not like I am going to take his head off. 


*3)* He is always attentive, no buffalo roaming here at all. 

*4)* I think he is confident in US, but by himself, no he is more insecure. He has made comments to me that if we never met, he would probably still be at home living with his parents. I do not like that he looks at himself in this light. He definetely puts me at a higher value than himself. 

*5)* I do feel his actions & behavior are about strength and security for supporting our family & having the respect of others around him, I don't feel he fears (for our future) and does not act "needy". He is not one to beg or plead or try to get his way -like a child- ever. His response was more "suffering in silence" instead of demanding his needs or putting them out there. I think we have gotten past these mistakes though. 

The *Confidence* thing -I think he lacks here BUT at the same time he has NO care or concern what others think (other than our immediate family) or trying to impress (could give alot of examples here), so is it really a lack of confidence? This could stem back to high school days, he was not into sports, probably never in a fist fight, too shy to get the girls, in comparison to others feats, he was lower on the scales, some things can not be denied. He never had a huge sense of competition by any means, but happy where he was. 

And the *Conflict *thing - I do wish he would demand a little more for himself, when he is not in agreement. 

I am not sure I am even understanding this "Fitness Test" thing us women do. It almost sounds like a "game" women are playing (& we are not even aware) and I guess the man then needs to play HIS GAME in response.


----------



## Deejo

SA, I'll give you my opinion and honestly, your circumstances really don't jive with what I would in very broad terms, refer to as 'the norm'.

I get the sense that your husband defines his worth according to the health of your relationship. He likes who he is _with you_. And to me, there is nothing wrong with this ... unless and until, things start to go wrong 

Your relationship works. You know your man. You know his boundaries and his limitations. You accept him. His 'score card' that you hold, has more pluses than minuses. That being the case, it is _less_ likely that you are going to consistently test or challenge him. Moreover, you are far less likely to test him with the expectation that he will fail.

Example:
Ex and I talk. We actually get along great. She has voiced concerns and uncertainty with TOM. She now purposely pushes his buttons in a manner _that she expects him to react poorly to_
Her hope, is that he will prove her suspicions wrong. The more poorly he responds ... the more likely the tests will increase and intensify.
She told me they were going to some event. Ex is about an inch taller than TOM. With heels, it can be up to 3 inches. She told me that she walked over to him, straightened his tie and said "Hey shorty." Had he taken it as flirting, or come back with some witty response, or wrapped his arms around her, and dipped her (thereby being above her) he would have passed with flying colors. But ... instead he responded like a kicked puppy. She tested his confidence. He failed. At which point he basically bled into shark infested water. Ex just went after him more.

My point is, and again, this is my opinion. If for whatever reason, your husband stopped meeting your needs, particularly sexually, or you lost your desire for him, his scorecard would move into the minus column and you would likely start fitness testing him relentlessly. At that point, the goal is to verify your subconscious belief, that your man is no longer up to snuff - and he keeps proving the point.

My guess is, if you chose for whatever reason, to 'break' your husband - you would. And given your awareness and acceptance of his passive nature, you would be able to throw your relationship into utter chaos very quickly.

Have you ever just pitched a hissy-fit at his expense? How did he respond?


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> I'm always amused by how he responds and it renews our relationship.


But this is what makes fitness testing a double edged sword. If you stop being amused and feeling good about his responses ... you're heading for troubled water, and he may not have a clue.

Thus my example about poor TOM. He doesn't even know he's being tested let alone the fact that he is actually jeopardizing the relationship.

Of course I also suspect that the reason ex is sharing this stuff with me and feeling uncertain about TOM, is because I have a shiny new, younger, partner.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> But this is what makes fitness testing a double edged sword. If you stop being amused and feeling good about his responses ... you're heading for troubled water, and he may not have a clue.
> 
> Thus my example about poor TOM. He doesn't even know he's being tested let alone the fact that he is actually jeopardizing the relationship.
> 
> Of course I also suspect that the reason ex is sharing this stuff with me and feeling uncertain about TOM, is because I have a shiny new, younger, partner.


Ouch, what is it with younger? Wait, did Scanner take over your body?


----------



## Deejo

Young is relative. She is mid-thirties, ex is 41. Neither look their age.
My adventures thus far have not yielded a fit, athletic, vivacious, forty something.

If it helps, you would also qualify as younger


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> She told me they were going to some event. Ex is about an inch taller than TOM. With heels, it can be up to 3 inches. She told me that she walked over to him, straightened his tie and said "Hey shorty." Had he taken it as flirting, or come back with some witty response, or wrapped his arms around her, and dipped her (thereby being above her) he would have passed with flying colors. But ... instead he responded like a kicked puppy. She tested his confidence. He failed. At which point he basically bled into shark infested water. Ex just went after him more.


Deejo - are you filling in blanks here - or did she tell you this story just like this, context and all?

I'm trying to think whether I've ever done ANYTHING quite like this - *is this truly just a FEMALE thing?*

Fascinating. A bit sick, but fascinating...


----------



## MEM2020

Read my latest post. It is very long - sorry - and it isn't pretty - but nature is not kind. Nature is brutal. This behavior is normal. Not just for the people on this board. It is simply normal. 

That marriage shrink Schnark calls it "typical marital sadism." 




nice777guy said:


> Deejo - are you filling in blanks here - or did she tell you this story just like this, context and all?
> 
> I'm trying to think whether I've ever done ANYTHING quite like this - *is this truly just a FEMALE thing?*
> 
> Fascinating. A bit sick, but fascinating...


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Deejo - are you filling in blanks here - or did she tell you this story just like this, context and all?
> 
> I'm trying to think whether I've ever done ANYTHING quite like this - *is this truly just a FEMALE thing?*
> 
> Fascinating. A bit sick, but fascinating...


I assure you, I'm not projecting, speculating, or dramatizing. That exchange took place and those were the details. My only additions to that scenario are how he could have chosen to respond - based on what my response would be.

Honest to God, there have been moments between the two of us now where she'll launch a zing and either I zing back, or utterly dismiss it, and she'll say "Now why can't he do that?"


----------



## MEM2020

Every "spirited" woman I know does this. There are some "nice girls" who don't. I find them much less interesting. 




Deejo said:


> I assure you, I'm not projecting, speculating, or dramatizing. That exchange took place and those were the details. My only additions to that scenario are how he could have chosen to respond - based on what my response would be.
> 
> Honest to God, there have been moments between the two of us now where she'll launch a zing and either I zing back, or utterly dismiss it, and she'll say "Now why can't he do that?"


----------



## Deejo

MEM11363 said:


> Every "spirited" woman I know does this. There are some "nice girls" who don't. I find them much less interesting.


I couldn't resist, so I said to ex just this afternoon; "Your boy did well at the party."

Her: "He did. So did you."

Me: "Well that was a given."

Her:*"He keeps trying to do what he thinks is the right thing, or what I want him to do.*

Me: "That isn't going to work over the long term."

Her: *"No it isn't. Because I don't know who he is if he keeps trying to be who he thinks he's supposed to be."*

That exchange is less than one hour old, and pretty much verbatim. I bolded the huge takeaways. In my head I was thinking "holy sh!t. That's like textbook stuff."
I asked her if she knew what a fitness test was. She looked at me like she smelled something funny. No clue.

I believe that we are actually able to have these 'chats' because I don't feel at risk. There is no right or wrong for me. I'm not looking to gain anything nor do I fear losing anything. But like I've said previously, it's like having a living lab to test some of this stuff out. 

As for my new GF, there really hasn't been anything of note ... yet. She made one crack about my being old, and I responded with "Yeah, sometimes I forget that you're still young enough for spanking." Yup, I played the spanking card. It played quite well.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Would you really want to be in a relationship with a woman who only was attracted to you because you had a shiny, new, younger partner and understood how to play her game?


You lost me.



> Maybe men don't really care about this? I'm sure it's flattering for you to feel that she's attracted to you but when you know it's based upon some game isn't it cheapened?


More lost. Who are you referring to, the ex or the gf? And no, it isn't cheapened at all. Every relationship is a game, right down to score cards, penalties, ejections, winners and losers. And no, I'm not being cynical.



> I think my point is that even though I fitness test, I am flexible. I actually enjoy being surprised by his responses. Maybe if he stops surprising me I'll get bored? I really don't know.


I'm not calling you out, but you and I have gone 'round the bend on this before. You previously stated that if your husband changed the way he responded to your challenges, by challenging you back ... you would feel threatened, at risk, and would want to run for the hills. Fortunately for the both of you, he's got your number.



> I guess when one or the other partner isn't getting what they need the relationship becomes troubled but isn't it the boring crap like commitment & responsibility that get couples through the tough times?


And how does the fair lady determine if commitment and responsibility are firmly in place with her partner? *pregnant pause*

Fitness testing.

No doubt in my mind whatsoever that TOM is committed to the ex. But that doesn't matter a whit as to _how he makes her feel about the relationship_. This is just another example of your 'if I deem you are responding to me poorly, I'll run for the hills and never look back.'



> If those two things aren't mutual and in place then the relationship is always in jeopardy, fitness tests or not.


That is absolutely correct.


----------



## Conrad

>>Fortunately for the both of you, he's got your number.<<

I wholeheartedly agree.

That's one reason why she is here and not him.


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> But this is what makes fitness testing a double edged sword. If you stop being amused and feeling good about his responses ... you're heading for troubled water, and he may not have a clue.
> 
> Thus my example about poor TOM. He doesn't even know he's being tested let alone the fact that he is actually jeopardizing the relationship.
> 
> Of course I also suspect that the reason ex is sharing this stuff with me and feeling uncertain about TOM, is because I have a shiny new, younger, partner.


Of that, there is absolutely no possible doubt.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> SA, I'll give you my opinion and honestly, your circumstances really don't jive with what I would in very broad terms, refer to as 'the norm'.


 I've always said I think we are out of the box somehow. 



Deejo said:


> I get the sense that your husband defines his worth according to the health of your relationship. He likes who he is _with you_. And to me, there is nothing wrong with this ... unless and until, things start to go wrong .


 I believe this is very very true. I guess I thought this woud be considered a weakness. 



Deejo said:


> Your relationship works. You know your man. You know his boundaries and his limitations. You accept him. His 'score card' that you hold, has more pluses than minuses. That being the case, it is _less_ likely that you are going to consistently test or challenge him. Moreover, you are far less likely to test him with the expectation that he will fail.


 I think you give me too much credit here, Accually I do test him a couple times a month anyway- still hoping he can be more Aggressive somehow. I am a little too stubborn to give up on this desire I have . For the most part I have accepted him. You are so right here though, I probably shouldn't be doing this. He often responds by telling me I like to argue, I want to start fights -just so we can have "make up sex" and he says we waste a lot of time - what he often says is : "I am not a Fighter but a Lover". I am not going to turn the Lover away!! But there are times, if these could be considered tests (I still don't know) that he fails, or I feel he fails. Like we was reading Sex cards to each other the other night with questions, one was for him to tell me some fantasy he has & he couldn’t do it, just saying he doesn't have any. Now he could come up with something better than that! That just REALLY ticked me off. Like from my end, I am wanting to have FUN here, get deeper, I want to talk to him, flirt, share fantasies & he tells me he has none! That is like setting a bomb off in me. What am I supposed to do with that. I guess I seek more "excitement" communicatively & sexually - than he is "able" to give me. I am not going to leave him over these things, as you R so correct, the pluses far outweigh the minus's but therein lies my issue with my man. I am very very much like Marcopoly69 on the sex forum who is desiring his wife to be more "sexually minded" & verbally open. Once or twice a month I cause issues over this. I will admit I am difficult to please. And selfish, and I keep wanting what I want. I guess I am like a little baby who needs scolded. And he has yet to spank me over it. 



Deejo said:


> She told me that she walked over to him, straightened his tie and said "Hey shorty." Had he taken it as flirting, or come back with some witty response, or wrapped his arms around her, and dipped her (thereby being above her) he would have passed with flying colors. But ... instead he responded like a kicked puppy. She tested his confidence. He failed. At which point he basically bled into shark infested water. Ex just went after him more.


 This is a good example you give. But even more so I wonder why she did this . Was she deliberately trying to get a certain response? I guess I am not creative enough to sit down & come up with things to Test him with, I just say what is on my mind (more than I should), and we discuss & when I get mad, I can start badgering. He likes to blame it on PMS. (ironically it usually is). 



Deejo said:


> If for whatever reason, your husband stopped meeting your needs, particularly sexually, or you lost your desire for him, his scorecard would move into the minus column and you would likely start fitness testing him relentlessly. At that point, the goal is to verify your subconscious belief, that your man is no longer up to snuff - and he keeps proving the point.


 I absolutely agree with this !!:iagree:



Deejo said:


> Have you ever just pitched a hissy-fit at his expense? How did he respond?


 If I am understanding what you mean here, you mean just being downright rude / inconsiderate / making fun of him kind of behavior. I would say I WAS like this when I was very young before we married. I had a lot of anger due to family issues, living with Step Mother who didn't want me there, and many times I was NOT so nice to him, he put up with me very well, I think he realized it had more to due with ME (acting out- using him as my punching bag) - than him. I resolved alot of this before we married. 

When I act up now, he blames my high sex drive (but will still GLADLY take this over what it used to be) and he likes to blame PMS for most of my difficult hurtful moments. 




Trenton said:


> SA your husband and my husband are very similar in that I think my husband likes who he is more when he is with me and he makes it clear that he is the more attached. I don't see this as a weakness of his but consider it more of a compliment to me. My question to you would be this, do you think that you are just as attached to him but have the illusion of less dependency because he is more passive? As in, if your husband left you tomorrow out of the blue (I know that this is unlikely obviously) where would you be? Is the same attachment there but dormant because of the security? I think this might be the case with me that's why I ask..


 Trenton, forgive me if I am not understanding your deep question here. Not sure if I have any illusions, I am VERY VERY attached myself. I would say this, he needs me MORE for the emotional -feeling whole -attachment. I think I need him more for Emotional and financial security (as I do not work), but I am very confident I could find another lover, but I do not believe I could EVER find another who loves me like him. Or would give me as much attention. I am lavished. If he left me out of the blue, I know I would 1st need drugs to cope with that loss, but after the grieving, I am definetely the type to pull up my boot straps, get myself out there & literally search the ends of the earth to look for another, I am relentless when I want something. My husband is not relentless when he wants something. 





Trenton said:


> Maybe we are in abnormal relationships with extraordinary men or chose men who are so perfectly matched to ourselves that it works? I've always thought so anyway. The difference might be that because of my moody personality I do test all the time but I don't know honestly if this is more for entertainment purposes or to keep my attachment to him fresh? Maybe a little of both. I'm always amused by how he responds and it renews our relationship.


 I do it because I am upset-maybe bored - at the time, and I want something more from him (excitement, fireworks, lusty passion). BUt when it is over, it is truly over and I kick myself for acting that way, as 95% of the time, it is bliss, maybe not primal & intense, but contentively happy & sensually fullfilling. This song is how I need to look at my husband every day YouTube - Alison Krauss - When You Say Nothing At All, and generally do -except for these moments I speak of.


----------



## MEM2020

I have a good friend who asked me if I resent some of the extreme fitness tests that my W either consciously or subconsciously initiates. 

I honestly feel that she has taken my skill to a whole new level. Resentment - hell I feel gratitude. The main adjustment I have had to make is this. I thought we were doing the equivalent of boxing. Gloves on - well defined rules - structured breaks between rounds. Sheeeeit. This is full throttle MMA. Lots more ways to get hurt - inflict hurt. Way more complicated game.

I could not live in a low conflict marriage. That does not mean I need a lot of arguing/toxic fighting. It means I need a lot of friendly to moderately rough conflict. 




Deejo said:


> You lost me.
> 
> 
> 
> More lost. Who are you referring to, the ex or the gf? And no, it isn't cheapened at all. Every relationship is a game, right down to score cards, penalties, ejections, winners and losers. And no, I'm not being cynical.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not calling you out, but you and I have gone 'round the bend on this before. You previously stated that if your husband changed the way he responded to your challenges, by challenging you back ... you would feel threatened, at risk, and would want to run for the hills. Fortunately for the both of you, he's got your number.
> 
> 
> 
> And how does the fair lady determine if commitment and responsibility are firmly in place with her partner? *pregnant pause*
> 
> Fitness testing.
> 
> No doubt in my mind whatsoever that TOM is committed to the ex. But that doesn't matter a whit as to _how he makes her feel about the relationship_. This is just another example of your 'if I deem you are responding to me poorly, I'll run for the hills and never look back.'
> 
> 
> 
> That is absolutely correct.


----------



## Nekko

Yup, i fitness test as well but i only realize i did later on. I guess deep down i want to know what person i'm living with. 

I don't do that on purpose because i'm not very fond of games in relationship or think they're fair. But i've accepted that this happens on occasion on both our sides. 

For the record, my guy seems to do it more than me. He's often called me "fattie" or similar to see how i react and what my confidence levels are like. Since i'm pretty skinny, we both know it's a joke. Same with "oh, i'd better get ready from when you can't fit through the door anymore". I could get very angry for him saying that... but i know it's a joke...i usually answer with "yeah, no thanks, i plan to be a milf in the next twenty-thirty years so try to keep up". 

When we were dating, in the first few weeks/months (i don't remember), he often served me with "hey, would you mind if i got a blowjob from her?" and variations. I eventually got angry and told him he can do whatever he wants because i'm not his mother, but he'd better be honest about his actions if he wants to be taken seriously and me not to run around taking advantage of my own opportunities. They always sounded as a joke and seemed a fitness test for how confident i was...and i knew his previous gf was extremely, exceptionally jealous even if they were together only for 3-4 months, but i've never asked him what that was all about. All of a sudden he turned into this guy who took me along everywhere, loved to spend every moment with me etc. So i either passed the test or he decided it was not a good idea to get me angry. i really don't know.


----------



## AFEH

There’s a book I read a while back called “Games People Play”.

I think Deejo is absolutely right with this game playing. Some games are dysfunctional, unhealthy and some are functional, healthy. But if we see every human interaction as a “game” then I think we’re on the right track. 

If while interacting acting with another in the first person we can also “analyse the transaction” at the same time from a third party view point then we maintain our awareness and autonomy as an individual.

I think that is actually what Deejo is doing and has experienced. It’s a much more heightened sense of self awareness and awareness of the people he interacts with.



Here is one of the reviews from http://www.amazon.com/Games-People-Play-Transactional-Analysis/dp/0345410033.

“"Thank Psyche," that this 1963 classic is still in print. (600,000 copies; N.Y.Times best-seller list for two years.) It's not trendy and forgettable, it's timeless and fascinating. (Here are our human "GAMES" such as "Kick Me," "Ain't It Awful," and "Happy to Help")

But two more subtle pleasures (which the other reviewers here have not yet mentioned) are the doctor's wry WIT-plus real WISDOM.

His thesis is uncompromising. Dr. Berne shows we play "games" taught us by our warped childhood, or the world and culture. Rock-bottom: "Because there is so little opportunity for intimacy in daily life, and because some forms of intimacy (especially if intense) are psychologically impossible for most people, the bulk of the time in serious social life is taken up with playing games. Hence games are both necessary and desirable, and the only problem at issue is whether the games played by an individual offer the best yield for him." Specifically, Berne says we should discard bad psychological games (based on invalid old life-scripts from the past), in favour of the better social games. (And indeed, the games seem giddily-toxic, especially "Look How Hard I've Tried," "See What You Made Me Do," and "I'm Only Trying To Help You")

So alas, for the intimacy-fearful MANY people, the goal-in-life is to cure the "sick" games, and then just play the non-pathological ones. But, for a FEW fortunates, the open-calm-easy-natural responsiveness of truer psychological maturity IS possible. Berne names it "autonomy." It comprises awareness, spontaneity, and intimacy.

Okay. Skim or skip the theoretical Part ONE. But savor the 106 games in the story-time Part TWO. I mean, who can resist such peppery plots as "Courtroom," "Frigid Woman," and "Now I've Got You, You SOB"?) And then ponder Part THREE, on true autonomy: wow. Berne notwithstanding, many CAN arrive toward truer autonomy. (I know. I did. It took me decades. Worth the trip.....)

But don't miss Dr. Berne's wry WIT. He tempers his pessimism by his dubious, ironic, "hopeful realism" you might say. I found irresistible such low-key, laconic gems about the Human Condition such as these:

(1) "She and her husband had little in common besides their household worries and the children, so that their quarrels stood out as important events; it was mainly on these occasions that they had anything but the most casual conversations."

(2) [On the difference between mathematical and psychological games:] "Mathematical game analysis postulates players who are completely rational. Transactional game analysis deals with games which are un-rational, or even irrational, and hence more real." 

(3) "'Beautiful friendships' are often based on the fact that the players complement each other with great economy and satisfaction, so that there is a maximum yield with a minimum of effort from the games they play with each other."

(4) (On the game "I'm Only Trying To Help You": a welfare agency worker and her client.) "There was a tacit agreement between the worker and the client which read as follows: W: I'll try to help you (providing you don't get better). C: I'll look for employment (providing I don't have to find any). If a client broke the agreement by getting better, the agency lost a client, and the client lost his welfare benefits, and both felt penalized...."

(5) (On the game "If It Weren't For You" "(1) On the surface: Mr. White: You stay home and take care of the house. Mrs. White: If it weren't for you, I could be out having fun. (2) But in reality: Mr. White: You must always be here when I get home. I'm terrified of desertion. Mrs. White: I will be if you help me avoid phobic situations."

(6) (On the game "Wooden Leg" or the defensive, resistant "what do you expect of a man with a wooden leg?") "Slightly more sophisticated are such pleas as: What do you expect of a man who (a) comes from a broken home (b) is neurotic (c) is in analysis or (d) is suffering from a disease known as alcoholism? These are topped by, "If I stop doing this (neurotic behavior), I won't be able to analyze it, and then I'll never get better." The obverse of "Wooden Leg" is "Rickshaw," with the thesis, "If they only had (rickshaws) (duckbill platypuses) (girls who spoke ancient Egyptian) around this town, I never would have got into this mess."

Aaaach, Dr. Eric, your demeanor-dubious, doubtful, disenchanted and yet also dedicated and doughty-is worthy even of the Master himself, Dr. Sigmund, indeed.....

And then the goal of it all, "AUTONOMY." Learning to see a teapot, hear the birds sing (and interact with self and others) in the way YOU yourself were meant to, directly. And NOT the way society, culture, your family, and the grubby benefits of game-playing tell you you should!....Four times in as many decades have I re-read Berne's description of this "autonomy." And each time I see more-because I'm slowly-surely getting closer and closer to autonomy. To this natural, friction-free, appreciative, mellow, engaged, honest, for-real interaction with self and others. (Of course, I had the benefit of useful and skilled psychotherapy in the interval.) But take heart: a long road can have arrival points. Dr. Berne points the way, with the wisdom and wry wit, the doubting but dedicated stance, of the best in the psychoanalytic tradition”.


----------



## AFEH

A typical dysfunctional “game” seen in the “Coping with Infidelity” forum is the “You Made Me Do It” game or “The Blame Game” played by the disloyal spouses.

My Ws most dysfunctional, unhealthy game was the “Never Own Up” game. The predicate to that game was her father’s “Do what you like just don’t get caught” game of life. When W got caught she played the “Never Own Up Game”.

As a man I can cope with many things in my life, including being deceived by my W. What I couldn’t cope with were the lies, blame, denial etc. that followed her “Never Own Up” game.

But on the other side of the coin my W had many exceptionally functional and healthy “games” of life.

Bob


----------



## Mom6547

Conrad said:


> By conquering your fear of losing her, you will win her.


Can't quite understand why you would want her. Sounds like a loser.


> And, if she still doesn't respond? What have you lost?


Amen to that.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

AFEH said:


> (6) (On the game "Wooden Leg" or the defensive, resistant "what do you expect of a man with a wooden leg?") "Slightly more sophisticated are such pleas as: What do you expect of a man who (a) comes from a broken home (b) is neurotic (c) is in analysis or (d) is suffering from a disease known as alcoholism? These are topped by, "If I stop doing this (neurotic behavior), I won't be able to analyze it, and then I'll never get better." The obverse of "Wooden Leg" is "Rickshaw," with the thesis, "If they only had (rickshaws) (duckbill platypuses) (girls who spoke ancient Egyptian) around this town, I never would have got into this mess."


This sounds like my husband.

"I'm sorry I'm a jerk."

"I know my faults. So what."

"I know I didn't learn any better from my parents."

"I need you to lead by example."

And then when he demonstrates how TRUE this is, he doesn't hold himself accountable at all.

And he actually blames ME for them.

How am I to deal with this?


----------



## Deejo

credamdóchasgra said:


> This sounds like my husband.
> 
> "I'm sorry I'm a jerk."
> 
> "I know my faults. So what."
> 
> "I know I didn't learn any better from my parents."
> 
> "I need you to lead by example."
> 
> And then when he demonstrates how TRUE this is, he doesn't hold himself accountable at all.
> 
> And he actually blames ME for them.
> 
> How am I to deal with this?


I don't know what is occurring that he gives you these responses. My advice would be to stop being horrified, disappointed and frustrated when he does something bone-headed. He has a pretty good sense of exactly what your response will be when he screws up or pisses you off. You need to change that dynamic.

Although I would never give this advice to a guy to use with a woman, I'm pretty comfortable telling you to use it on your hubs. 

When he calls out his flaws as a defense (and it's a bullsh!t defense) emphasize them. Flaunt them. Laugh at them. Mock them. Basically, shame him.

So when he says; "I know I didn't learn any better from my parents."

Say something like: "Well, they didn't have a lot to work with did they? I'm not your parent either."

Stop trying to win him over to your side of courtesy and responsibility. Instead, meet him on his own turf. If he screws up, instead of being disappointed with the expectation that you fix it, emphasize his shortcoming - he won't like it. Therefore he will want to modify his behavior.

"I know my faults. So what?"

Your response: "So are your faults all that you're good at?"

You will have to determine if you can pull this kind of thing off. I don't know a great deal about your history. Obviously, if you are afraid of him, or there are concerns about his reaction then don't do this. But, if those are in fact your concerns, then my advice is to ditch him completely.


----------



## JoReba

Conrad said:


> There's a whole portion of the raging ongoing discussion that intrigues me. And, once I managed to attract the love of my life (it had been a long-term interest), the conflict began in earnest.
> 
> This was 4 plus years ago.
> 
> Just about everything was tried to "fix" things.
> 
> Logic
> 
> Emotional appeals - including pleading
> 
> Behavioral adjustments
> 
> More than a bit of anger
> 
> Yet, no matter what was tried, nothing "really worked". And, when I say nothing "worked", I'm talking about what could/would keep alive the spark in the relationship.
> 
> Periodically, I would hear about her dissatisfaction with our sex life. Of course, those who read and understand here know exactly what was going on. It was one long fitness test.
> 
> Endless compromises... endless deals. Endless negotiations.. endless dissatisfaction with results.
> 
> Most men dread "day 100" of any relationship, as this is when some say the "wheels start to come off". It's now easy to understand what was/is going on.
> 
> Perhaps subconsciously, the tests begin. Are you man enough to maintain my interest? Are you man enough to be a father to the children? Are you man enough to control yourself, hold a job, be faithful, and stand up to others.
> 
> If you are, then prove it by standing up to me!
> 
> If you want to be my warrior, then show me your grace under pressure.
> 
> And, if you fail to control yourself, prepare for further tests, as I bore into your psyche and see what your fiber truly is.
> 
> Becoming a "nice guy" in response to this pressure if the road to hell. Trying to be perfect. Trying not to annoy. Trying everything in your power... stretching yourself to stay out of trouble.
> 
> No one is perfect. You will be tempted to lie and conceal - even to badmouth your wife to others as the pressure rises, as the very essence of your manhood gets swept away.
> 
> And, in the process, your wife will lose interest in this doormat of a man she has in her house.
> 
> This board is littered with the stories of men who have failed these tests. I was definitely one of those.
> 
> What I can tell you - for a fact - is that it is never too late to start passing them. Miles of ground can be made up in a very short time. But, first, you simply must be right with yourself and be able to conquer your fear. Conquer your fear of losing. And, when I mean losing, I mean losing her.
> 
> By conquering your fear of losing her, you will win her.
> 
> And, if she still doesn't respond? What have you lost? You're merely prepared for the future.


Your big mistake is thinking that marriage has anything to do with some sort of a "spark." 

Lol.


----------



## nice777guy

JoReba said:


> Your big mistake is thinking that marriage has anything to do with some sort of a "spark."
> 
> Lol.


That may be true for the most practical of all people.

But for the rest of us, if that spark is missing, it is very likely that a spouse will find it somewhere else. Sometimes on purpose - sometimes on accident.

A marriage without that spark is usually just a small mis-step away from falling apart.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

Deejo...I need to man up.
I won't serve or take crap anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

credamdóchasgra said:


> Deejo...I need to man up.
> I won't serve or take crap anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Rock on, girlfriend.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

It was recommended to me that I do all the "man up/nice guy" stuff in reverse, because I'm far too vulnerable to my husband's insensitivity and bullheadedness.
I wonder how much it can apply in reverse.
All I know is that for these first 6 months of my marriage, I haven't successfully enforced my own boundaries, and that needs to change now.
From now forward, there's only room for one immature child in our home, and I hope that he chooses to grow up too.
I'm done being a whiney baby, and let's hope he stops being a tantrum-throwing baby.

This is the first time I've felt a stronger desire to turn away from him than to appeal to him for resolution.
--->THAT is a significant difference within me.
Yes, I want to work it out with him; but I'm tired of losing myself in the attempts to get HIM to want to.
I hope this signals a change in our dynamic.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nice777guy

credamdóchasgra said:


> It was recommended to me that I do all the "man up/nice guy" stuff in reverse, because I'm far too vulnerable to my husband's insensitivity and bullheadedness.
> I wonder how much it can apply in reverse.
> All I know is that for these first 6 months of my marriage, I haven't successfully enforced my own boundaries, and that needs to change now.
> From now forward, there's only room for one immature child in our home, and I hope that he chooses to grow up too.
> I'm done being a whiney baby, and let's hope he stops being a tantrum-throwing baby.
> 
> This is the first time I've felt a stronger desire to turn away from him than to appeal to him for resolution.
> --->THAT is a significant difference within me.
> Yes, I want to work it out with him; but I'm tired of losing myself in the attempts to get HIM to want to.
> I hope this signals a change in our dynamic.
> 
> Didn't mean to hijack the thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Look up codependency - maybe the book Codependent No More by Melodie Beattie. I've always thought a lot of this Nice Guy stuff is just coda stuff with a manly spin.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

Thanks for the suggestion.
I read that for a class I took, that didn't occur to me.
Thing is, I know I have issues too, it's not just him; 
I'm just more able to admit mine and therefore run the risk of taking more than my own share of responsibility for the problems and solutions.
---oh wait, did I just define codependency?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> I don't know what is occurring that he gives you these responses. My advice would be to stop being horrified, disappointed and frustrated when he does something bone-headed. He has a pretty good sense of exactly what your response will be when he screws up or pisses you off. You need to change that dynamic.
> 
> Although I would never give this advice to a guy to use with a woman, I'm pretty comfortable telling you to use it on your hubs.
> 
> When he calls out his flaws as a defense (and it's a bullsh!t defense) emphasize them. Flaunt them. Laugh at them. Mock them. Basically, shame him.
> 
> So when he says; "I know I didn't learn any better from my parents."
> 
> Say something like: "Well, they didn't have a lot to work with did they? I'm not your parent either."
> 
> Stop trying to win him over to your side of courtesy and responsibility. Instead, meet him on his own turf. If he screws up, instead of being disappointed with the expectation that you fix it, emphasize his shortcoming - he won't like it. Therefore he will want to modify his behavior.
> 
> "I know my faults. So what?"
> 
> Your response: "So are your faults all that you're good at?"
> 
> You will have to determine if you can pull this kind of thing off. I don't know a great deal about your history. Obviously, if you are afraid of him, or there are concerns about his reaction then don't do this. But, if those are in fact your concerns, then my advice is to ditch him completely.


Deliver these sorts of lines completely dispassionately.

No gleam in your eye.

No raising of voice.

As little emotion as possible.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

I don't get the sense he's "fitness testing" me in the way that Conrad described in the original post.
He doesn't want to see if I'll stand up to him.
He wants to prove that I'm no better and no saner than his mother who constantly pokes and prods and argues to negotiate him into sticking around.
Truth be told, I've fallen into that role too many times. I've fed the cycle.
---but ain't it nice to realize that, even if he doesn't.
THAT'S who he's raging at when I'm the stand-in for her, begging for his affection and love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JoReba

nice777guy said:


> That may be true for the most practical of all people.
> 
> But for the rest of us, if that spark is missing, it is very likely that a spouse will find it somewhere else. Sometimes on purpose - sometimes on accident.
> 
> A marriage without that spark is usually just a small mis-step away from falling apart.


From both your first post about the "spark" and from your reply above, it is apparent you do not understand your problem.

Yes, marriages do need a spark to be healthy. But, "spark" is the frosting on the cake, not the cake itself. "Spark" cannot be a foundation for a marriage. Is this a new idea for you ... ?


----------



## nice777guy

JoReba said:


> From both your first post about the "spark" and from your reply above, it is apparent you do not understand your problem.
> 
> Yes, marriages do need a spark to be healthy. But, "spark" is the frosting on the cake, not the cake itself. "Spark" cannot be a foundation for a marriage. Is this a new idea for you ... ?


I'd love to hear you expand on this. Whatever you think is so obvious is not apparent to me from your statement.

People like cake - but they LOVE frosting.

My wife went looking for frosting.

In fact SHE TRIED TO HAVE HER CAKE AND EAT IT TOO!!!!

:rofl:

(thanks for lobbing that one up there - too easy!!!)


----------



## MEM2020

joReba,
Define what you mean by spark.



JoReba said:


> From both your first post about the "spark" and from your reply above, it is apparent you do not understand your problem.
> 
> Yes, marriages do need a spark to be healthy. But, "spark" is the frosting on the cake, not the cake itself. "Spark" cannot be a foundation for a marriage. Is this a new idea for you ... ?


----------



## JoReba

nice777guy said:


> I'd love to hear you expand on this. Whatever you think is so obvious is not apparent to me from your statement.
> 
> People like cake - but they LOVE frosting.
> 
> My wife went looking for frosting.
> 
> In fact SHE TRIED TO HAVE HER CAKE AND EAT IT TOO!!!!
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> (thanks for lobbing that one up there - too easy!!!)


"Spark" is based upon how a person feels, and how they just happen to perceive someone else at a particular moment.

True love is based upon the "cake" of character, willingness to forgive, friendship, and committment.


----------



## Deejo

Fastest ban eva?


----------



## nice777guy

I blinked! What happened?

She inferred that she had the answers I need, and now she's GONE!!!


----------



## reachingshore

She? I thought it was a He. LOL


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> I blinked! What happened?
> 
> She inferred that she had the answers I need, and now she's GONE!!!


Gotta wait 10 days for your cake with no frosting.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure she is a he.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Gotta wait 10 days for your cake with no frosting.


Isn't that just - like - bread?

Getting off the topic a bit - we had a b-day at work yesterday and someone brought in a cake with two layers (bottom & top) of chocolate cake, a layer of cheesecake in the middle, covered with whip cream and cherries. I think she was trying to kill us.

Funny how I didn't hear anyone say "Could I just have a piece of bread?"


----------



## MEM2020

NG,
You are consistently very clever and rather funny. Does your W get to see/experience that side of you? It is delightful. 

A big part of our marital glue is humor. My W tells me she can "banter" with me in a way she never has with anyone else. And that is true for me in reverse. 



nice777guy said:


> Isn't that just - like - bread?
> 
> Getting off the topic a bit - we had a b-day at work yesterday and someone brought in a cake with two layers (bottom & top) of chocolate cake, a layer of cheesecake in the middle, covered with whip cream and cherries. I think she was trying to kill us.
> 
> Funny how I didn't hear anyone say "Could I just have a piece of bread?"


----------



## nice777guy

MEM11363 said:


> NG,
> You are consistently very clever and rather funny. Does your W get to see/experience that side of you? It is delightful.
> 
> A big part of our marital glue is humor. My W tells me she can "banter" with me in a way she never has with anyone else. And that is true for me in reverse.


Thanks MEM.

Hard to explain - hard to understand even - but right now it feels like we've both just kind of turned the volume down on the "marriage." So no - she's not really get the best of my best qualities right now. But we've also both toned the negative down as well.


----------



## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> Thanks MEM.
> 
> Hard to explain - hard to understand even - but right now it feels like we've both just kind of turned the volume down on the "marriage." So no - she's not really get the best of my best qualities right now. But we've also both toned the negative down as well.


NG,

If I'm reading you right, you're exhausted.

That entire huge effort to get things back to where they want to be, and now you're not sure about it.

That has to hurt a bit.


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> NG,
> 
> If I'm reading you right, you're exhausted.
> 
> That entire huge effort to get things back to where they want to be, and now you're not sure about it.
> 
> That has to hurt a bit.


Yes - very much so.


----------



## max456

Was directed to this thread (thanks Conrad)

Seems an appropriate place to seek some advise on this series of tests


just spent a good amount time reading this thread, and some very insightful info

rather than post in generalities, I hope you guys can help me evaluate my current situation, and offer some advise/constructive criticism, because I am need of some serious manning up

so here goes

What is the best course of action to get someone to change how they treat you? I am the consummate nice guy. I don't have many friends, because I'm not the most trusting soul, but those who are close, I treat like family. I bend over backwards. But I also let myself get walked on because I like the approval of others. I also want to me the type of friend to another that I want...someone who will stand by my side no matter what.

Sometimes I chaulk it up to my female friend just being younger than I (she's mid 20's, I'm mid 30's), or perhaps not ever having someone do for her as much as I do...but then that just sounds like an excuse that I've created. For the past few days she's been asking me to take her food shopping (she's in school, doesn't currently have a job, and I support her financially...another discussion I suppose!). She asked me Saturday afternoon if we could go in the evening. I was out, and she said she would call me around 6. She called about 7, said she was just going to stay in and we would do it Sunday. Never heard from her Sunday, so I went food shopping for myself. She asked me Monday night around 9 pm to go, as she was leaving her last class, but I declined, as I was in and relaxing from my day. We both agreed we would do it Tuesday since her class let out earlier. We spoke yesterday (Tuesday) afternoon, and she said she was done with class at 8. I commented how that worked ok since I would be ready around that time from stuff I had to do (gym, eat, shower). We agreed to meet at the specific supermarket. Didn't have a set time, but I figured somewhere between 8:30-9 ish, since it's about a 20 minute drive from her college and a bit less for me. So, I left at 8:15, got there around just after 8:30. She called once while I was on my way (I was on a business call, so I sent her call right to voicemail); she did not leave a message, or send a text. I got to the supermarket, waited about 15 minutes, and called her to get her eta. She then says she made other plans for the night and would call me later. I told her I was at the supermarket waiting, and asked why didn't she tell me something had changed? "I tried to call but you didn't pick up - I figured you were in the shower"? OK....so why not leave a message? Sounded like a bunch of BS. I was annoyed that my time had been wasted, and told her so. All she would have had to do was leave me a voicemail, or send a text to say something had come up and she wouldn't make it. This is a recurring theme, with me waiting for her..her running late, or not communicating till the last minute, etc. I tolerate it to a point, but last night just pissed me off. I worked all day, did my running around after work, and instead of just staying in and relaxing, got dressed again, just to meet her, to take her food shopping at her request. So I expressed how I felt, both on the phone and via text. I didn't yell, I just said I didn't appreciate being taken for granted like that; that my time is valuable to me, etc. 

I got some bs texted replies back that it was my fault because we didn't have a "set time" and I should not be mad. Now, maybe I jumped the gun and should have confirmed before hand if things were still on...but the way I see it, she could have easily left a voicemail/texted/communicated that something had come up and could we do it another time. She said we should "talk about it in person like adults". Fine, I can do that. But we've had this "talk" before...me doing for her constantly, making myself available constantly, and essentially catering to her every whim and spoiling her rotten...and her not treating me with the respect I deserve, given everything I do for her. 

So how do I change the dynamic? I have not reached out to her, today nor has she reached out to me since this only happened last night. We are very close...we talk all the time, we hang out of the weekends. We've met each others families, we have met each others friends, etc. There are definitely feelings beyond friendship on both sides, we've just been taking things really slowly for quite some time (lots of reasons why). The funny thing is, that just a few weeks ago, she sent me a very nice, sweet email listing all the reasons why she appreciates me. I only came to see this email the other night, and replied with something short but to the point. She's told me recently I am a blessing in her life. Even last night, in the midst of her telling me I was wrong, she said she enjoyed my friendship. But how do I change things to make her value my place in her life more, and treat me with the same respect as I give to her? I know things come up, plans change. I'd much rather be hanging out than going food shopping too. But is it too much to ask to let me know? Or, do I need to use kid gloves going forward, and everytime we're supposed to meet, ask her if she's there or on her way, and get an eta, so I'm not left there waiting? I could go on with example after example of how she's done this before. There are plenty of times where I speak up and say something, and other times where I don't.

Thanks for reading my rant, and I'm ready to take my medicine!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

If you really want to see where you stand stop financially supporting her.
It is amazing that she shows so little respect for your time and your financial support.

The way this works is simple. Let her start making more effort. If she doesn't you need to accept that for the lack of interest it is.
Btw - the board overflows with women who sent their guys "you are so sweet" notes while in parallel not showing "real" respect. Those that married quickly became sexless marriages.
Sorry man but this particular pattern may be the most common dysfunctional model between men and women.
Unless you are exclusively dating - financial support is a very bad idea.



max456 said:


> Was directed to this thread (thanks Conrad)
> 
> Seems an appropriate place to seek some advise on this series of tests
> 
> 
> just spent a good amount time reading this thread, and some very insightful info
> 
> rather than post in generalities, I hope you guys can help me evaluate my current situation, and offer some advise/constructive criticism, because I am need of some serious manning up
> 
> so here goes
> 
> What is the best course of action to get someone to change how they treat you? I am the consummate nice guy. I don't have many friends, because I'm not the most trusting soul, but those who are close, I treat like family. I bend over backwards. But I also let myself get walked on because I like the approval of others. I also want to me the type of friend to another that I want...someone who will stand by my side no matter what.
> 
> Sometimes I chaulk it up to my female friend just being younger than I (she's mid 20's, I'm mid 30's), or perhaps not ever having someone do for her as much as I do...but then that just sounds like an excuse that I've created. For the past few days she's been asking me to take her food shopping (she's in school, doesn't currently have a job, and I support her financially...another discussion I suppose!). She asked me Saturday afternoon if we could go in the evening. I was out, and she said she would call me around 6. She called about 7, said she was just going to stay in and we would do it Sunday. Never heard from her Sunday, so I went food shopping for myself. She asked me Monday night around 9 pm to go, as she was leaving her last class, but I declined, as I was in and relaxing from my day. We both agreed we would do it Tuesday since her class let out earlier. We spoke yesterday (Tuesday) afternoon, and she said she was done with class at 8. I commented how that worked ok since I would be ready around that time from stuff I had to do (gym, eat, shower). We agreed to meet at the specific supermarket. Didn't have a set time, but I figured somewhere between 8:30-9 ish, since it's about a 20 minute drive from her college and a bit less for me. So, I left at 8:15, got there around just after 8:30. She called once while I was on my way (I was on a business call, so I sent her call right to voicemail); she did not leave a message, or send a text. I got to the supermarket, waited about 15 minutes, and called her to get her eta. She then says she made other plans for the night and would call me later. I told her I was at the supermarket waiting, and asked why didn't she tell me something had changed? "I tried to call but you didn't pick up - I figured you were in the shower"? OK....so why not leave a message? Sounded like a bunch of BS. I was annoyed that my time had been wasted, and told her so. All she would have had to do was leave me a voicemail, or send a text to say something had come up and she wouldn't make it. This is a recurring theme, with me waiting for her..her running late, or not communicating till the last minute, etc. I tolerate it to a point, but last night just pissed me off. I worked all day, did my running around after work, and instead of just staying in and relaxing, got dressed again, just to meet her, to take her food shopping at her request. So I expressed how I felt, both on the phone and via text. I didn't yell, I just said I didn't appreciate being taken for granted like that; that my time is valuable to me, etc.
> 
> I got some bs texted replies back that it was my fault because we didn't have a "set time" and I should not be mad. Now, maybe I jumped the gun and should have confirmed before hand if things were still on...but the way I see it, she could have easily left a voicemail/texted/communicated that something had come up and could we do it another time. She said we should "talk about it in person like adults". Fine, I can do that. But we've had this "talk" before...me doing for her constantly, making myself available constantly, and essentially catering to her every whim and spoiling her rotten...and her not treating me with the respect I deserve, given everything I do for her.
> 
> So how do I change the dynamic? I have not reached out to her, today nor has she reached out to me since this only happened last night. We are very close...we talk all the time, we hang out of the weekends. We've met each others families, we have met each others friends, etc. There are definitely feelings beyond friendship on both sides, we've just been taking things really slowly for quite some time (lots of reasons why). The funny thing is, that just a few weeks ago, she sent me a very nice, sweet email listing all the reasons why she appreciates me. I only came to see this email the other night, and replied with something short but to the point. She's told me recently I am a blessing in her life. Even last night, in the midst of her telling me I was wrong, she said she enjoyed my friendship. But how do I change things to make her value my place in her life more, and treat me with the same respect as I give to her? I know things come up, plans change. I'd much rather be hanging out than going food shopping too. But is it too much to ask to let me know? Or, do I need to use kid gloves going forward, and everytime we're supposed to meet, ask her if she's there or on her way, and get an eta, so I'm not left there waiting? I could go on with example after example of how she's done this before. There are plenty of times where I speak up and say something, and other times where I don't.
> 
> Thanks for reading my rant, and I'm ready to take my medicine!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega

MEM11363 said:


> If you really want to see where you stand stop financially supporting her.
> It is amazing that she shows so little respect for your time and your financial support.
> 
> The way this works is simple. Let her start making more effort. If she doesn't you need to accept that for the lack of interest it is.
> Btw - the board overflows with women who sent their guys "you are so sweet" notes while in parallel not showing "real" respect. Those that married quickly became sexless marriages.
> Sorry man but this particular pattern may be the most common dysfunctional model between men and women.
> Unless you are exclusively dating - financial support is a very bad idea.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Amen to that! I had a really awesome job out of college when I met my wife. She worked retail. I paid for everything! I didn't think anything of it at the time. That's just what I did. When her car broke down, I bought her a new one. Not new used...new. She married me. Lol! Sex life went to crap. She had three EAs on me. ( with same OM). I am that textbook!

Well.....I WAS that textbook.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Max,

The easiest way to think of it.

Money is to women what sex is to men.

It's the mother's milk of a relationship.

MEM is right.

(I risk giving him a big ego by posting that so often)


----------



## AFEH

Max, seems like you think you’re in a romantic relationship with her but unless you’re sleeping together and kissing you’re most definitely not. There is more than likely somebody else doing those things with her.

So you’ll just be the “Nice Friendly Guy” on the side that helps her out and who doesn’t even want sex. You know, one of those TRULY AND FUNDAMENTALLY REALLY NICE GUYS that don’t even end up with the woman.

Bob


----------



## Conrad

AFEH said:


> Max, seems like you think you’re in a romantic relationship with her but unless you’re sleeping together and kissing you’re most definitely not. There is more than likely somebody else doing those things with her.
> 
> So you’ll just be the “Nice Friendly Guy” on the side that helps her out and who doesn’t even want sex. You know, one of those TRULY AND FUNDAMENTALLY REALLY NICE GUYS that don’t even end up with the woman.
> 
> Bob


It's called the "friend zone"


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> It's called the "friend zone"


Let's hope he "gets it".

Bob


----------



## max456

I have no delusions as to where I am in that regard.

I posted more details: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/313092-post207.html

Sorry to do this in 2 threads but I truly appreciate all the advise. I figure since you guys/women have either encountered this type before (or have acted this way before), you can better guide me as to my best course of action


----------



## ManDup

If a woman is not interested in you, she will not fitness test you.


----------



## AFEH

max456 said:


> I have no delusions as to where I am in that regard.
> 
> I posted more details: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/313092-post207.html
> 
> Sorry to do this in 2 threads but I truly appreciate all the advise. I figure since you guys/women have either encountered this type before (or have acted this way before), you can better guide me as to my best course of action


What are you hoping to achieve Max, what's your goal with the woman?

Bob


----------



## max456

Bob - where I'd ultimately like to see things is us, in a comitted relationship with one another. For the past ~6 months or so, we've just been feeling each other out in that regard. We both come to the table with our share of baggage, and unlike many other times when 2 people come together, we know about each others baggage....as we talked about it long before feelings ever developed on either side. I know that is part of what keeps things the way they are, because both of us are agun-shy to just go all in and take that chance. That being said, we've both made changes to ourselves in this time. I know I am better for the changes I've made, and I can honestly say she is better as well. I've had a lot of BS with my ex-gf, all of which she knows about. There is no question I am more emotionally expressive, but at the same time, whereas she was once very quiet and not-revealing, those walls have begun to be broken down and we talk about stuff a lot more than we ever used to. Whether it's stuff that involves "us", or just relationship stuff in general. The financial aspect, and our past, purely physical relationship certainly complicates it, and I wish it weren't there, but things are what they are. 

She did do, what I consider to be, an honorable thing, and came by today to clear the air. She heard what I had to say, and while she didn't agree with it, she said she understood why I came to feel the way I did. It all comes down to communication and we spent a good while talking about how we each communicate differently, and we need to sometimes put ourselves in the others shoes. Sometimes how you deliver the message can be more important than the message itself.

Without question I need to set some better boundries. As much as I care about her, I am not going to be walked on or at someones disposal 24/7. I'm also not going to unnecessarily inconvenience myself for someone who is just chronically late...so I need to confirm things are a go/no go before acting out/up.


----------



## BigBadWolf

Conrad said:


> It's called the "friend zone"


^ This. 


Max456, understand this, if you are wanting to be in a romantic relationship with this woman, then stop doing these things:

Stop being her servant.
Stop letting her dictate times and places and events.
Stop giving her compliments on her looks, personality, etc etc etc.

And start these tings:

You give her sometings to do for you (pick up your laundry, pick up case of motor oil for your car-she pays, etc).
You tell her some interesting thing activity you are participating in (concert, travel, museum) and do not invite her, at least the first few times, and then only as if YOU are doing HER a favor to join you.

These things, at first they seem very backwards and upside down, but understand the other man she is interested in that is not you, unnerstand he is doing this type of attitude towards her.

A woman, she is not afraid of any man that is "a challenge", or who is "a jerk" (or worse).

A woman, however, she will be literally and totally repulsed by the man who is a pushover, a doormat, or who in any way is a child to her or a follower to her.

Show her by your behavior (not words) that your "status" is that she would have to try VERY hard to be the woman worthy to be with you, and just as it is easier for the water to flow downhill than uphill, you will be amazed to see how differently a woman will behave and treat you.

"Hypergamy", look it up, study study study to understand what it is.

The good man who behaves in this way, he is not the man who is stood up at the grocery store. 

I wish you well.


----------



## MAD OBX

To me, and I'm not the expert on this stuff, this seems a little contrived BBW...

I understand the idea, but ...

if being a "nice guy" is ineffective in getting a girl...

isn't doing all this posturing and manipulation kind of the same thing???

Either way you're playing a game, being something you're not to convince her of your worth. 

What about maybe find something real to take some of your attention away from pleasing her. Maybe a hobby or a mission. 

Then when she asks you about it, you can really reveal something true and powerful about you...

And ...

if it doesn't work out with her, you wouldn't have put in all this "work" for nothing, you will instead be pursuing something you would have done anyway. 

I don't know, it just feels "girly" to be wondering... "Oh, no. She's calling. Should I answer? Am I being to available? Am I being too much of a nice guy?"

I can't pull that off. I'm a terrible bluffer.


----------



## MAD OBX

For a more articulate presentation of this kind of idea see:

YouTube - David Deida - Spirit Sex Love - Part 1 of 12


----------



## MEM2020

MAD OBX said:


> To me, and I'm not the expert on this stuff, this seems a little contrived BBW...
> 
> I understand the idea, but ...
> 
> if being a "nice guy" is ineffective in getting a girl...
> 
> isn't doing all this posturing and manipulation kind of the same thing???
> 
> Either way you're playing a game, being something you're not to convince her of your worth.
> 
> What about maybe find something real to take some of your attention away from pleasing her. Maybe a hobby or a mission.
> 
> Then when she asks you about it, you can really reveal something true and powerful about you...
> 
> And ...
> 
> if it doesn't work out with her, you wouldn't have put in all this "work" for nothing, you will instead be pursuing something you would have done anyway.
> 
> I don't know, it just feels "girly" to be wondering... "Oh, no. She's calling. Should I answer? Am I being to available? Am I being too much of a nice guy?"
> 
> I can't pull that off. I'm a terrible bluffer.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Mad,
It basically goes like this. You pay close attention to behavior that implies "she" is more important than
You. That her time, money, feelings matter more and you address each 
Instance of that firmly and directly until you realize it isn't improving markedly and end it, or you see her stepping up.

If you pay for stuff in a non sexual relationship she will perceive that YOU
Believe she is more Important thanyou are.


QUOTE=MEM11363;321343]_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BigBadWolf

Read MEM11363 many many times as needed until it becomes clear!

That is exactly correct, watch for anyting you are doing that puts perception of yourself beneath a woman you interested in, and STOP these things.

And wrap your mind around this, these tings that either create or destroy sexual attraction, do not think of these things as posturing or manipulation.

Sexual attraction, it is merely our most ancient and primal communication between the male and female, and it is indeed a language unto it's own. 

The good man who wants to spark and maintain sexual attraction, leading to the long and fulfilling relationship with a woman, he should understand this!

So just as in written communication there are words, letters, grammatical rules, all these things work together to communicate what you wish to communicate, correct?

So in sexual communication as well, there are attitudes, actions, and behavioral rules as well to communicate what you wish to communicate. 

Using proper grammar and possessing a large vocabulary, these things are not posturing or manipulation, they are merely the tools of communication.

So these things we speak of to pay attention regarding sexual attraction, to stop doing things that communicate a man is not desirable sexually, and to start doing things that communicate that a man is desirable sexually, do not think these tools are good or evil, but think only of them merely as tools!

And powerful and effective tools they are!


----------



## AFEH

BigBadWolf said:


> Read MEM11363 many many times as needed until it becomes clear!
> 
> That is exactly correct, watch for anyting you are doing that puts perception of yourself beneath a woman you interested in, and STOP these things.
> 
> And wrap your mind around this, these tings that either create or destroy sexual attraction, do not think of these things as posturing or manipulation.
> 
> Sexual attraction, it is merely our most ancient and primal communication between the male and female, and it is indeed a language unto it's own.
> 
> The good man who wants to spark and maintain sexual attraction, leading to the long and fulfilling relationship with a woman, he should understand this!
> 
> So just as in written communication there are words, letters, grammatical rules, all these things work together to communicate what you wish to communicate, correct?
> 
> So in sexual communication as well, there are attitudes, actions, and behavioral rules as well to communicate what you wish to communicate.
> 
> Using proper grammar and possessing a large vocabulary, these things are not posturing or manipulation, they are merely the tools of communication.
> 
> So these things we speak of to pay attention regarding sexual attraction, to stop doing things that communicate a man is not desirable sexually, and to start doing things that communicate that a man is desirable sexually, do not think these tools are good or evil, but think only of them merely as tools!
> 
> And powerful and effective tools they are!


I guess it really does depend if he desires to get into her knickers, if the chemistry is really there or not. If it isn’t then friend’s zone it’ll be.

For me it’s always been “Chemistry first everything else later”. Because without the chemistry I just don’t see the point.

Bob


----------



## Conrad

AFEH said:


> I guess it really does depend if he desires to get into her knickers, if the chemistry is really there or not. If it isn’t then friend’s zone it’ll be.
> 
> For me it’s always been “Chemistry first everything else later”. Because without the chemistry I just don’t see the point.
> 
> Bob


Robert,

Some real chemistry exists with my wife. All that stuff Alphaomega writes about the pheromes, etc. seems totally true with her.

But, here's the key.

If you have "chemistry" and a great physical connection, it's quite possible for the female to overvalue that aspect of the relationship. AND (personal testimony here) the real risk for the male is to be so "into" his woman that he seems needy.

As I've reviewed the last 5 years, I realize all those little behaviors/strategies to make her seem more important than me simply became standard operating procedure. All I can say is that I'm dead level certain this was standard operating procedure for her in every relationship.

Now that she's gone, when we speak, the dynamic has completely changed.

It's strange to feel actual respect from her - and to have the sort of in depth sharing of mutual views that we should have been having all along. It also feels good.

I miss the pheromes. But, all I have to do is remember the small and large discourtesies.

What a massively helpful learning experience.


----------



## max456

Thanks guys, much appreciated. I did do my own little experiment in recent days and it revealed a lot. I'll admit it's a bit tough to flip the script but at this point it's my best course of action. I've revealed my feelings so there is no "mystery" there anymore. So it's time to create some- not in fictitious terms but real terms. She called me a few times Thursday but I was tied up with work and didn't call back till late that night. I now understand I should not have called at all. The first thing she said was a comment about how I was not around all day when she called and texted. I simply said I was busy. I should have let it go till Friday or Saturday if not beyond. This week will be easy to do that as I've got a full plate. She's going to be attempting to reach me if not just stopping my office because her rent is due. I'll take care of it on my schedule not hers. We often hang out Fridays and Saturdays. Didnt this weekend. I have plans next Friday night with a female (platonic) friend and I'm tempted to tell her I have a date. Or perhaps just don't mention anything till after the fact. I do hate the "game" but she needs to understand that as much as I want an "us" that she needs to put in some work to get me. I can't just wait forever because that's not being true or fair to me. .I don't think she disrespects me but I do think she has expectations about my availability which I've only reinforced. That needs to change. To add further complexity my ex gf (the one we've fought about) second half in the week and since we are friends we will be seeing one another. I do hate the "games" but I need to get my head around the fact that I kick ass, I dont need to prove my worth to her because I've done that time and time again for a year +. She knows it too... She needs to be reminded of it more though. She relies on me... It should not be the other way around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Robert,
> 
> Some real chemistry exists with my wife. All that stuff Alphaomega writes about the pheromes, etc. seems totally true with her.
> 
> But, here's the key.
> 
> If you have "chemistry" and a great physical connection, it's quite possible for the female to overvalue that aspect of the relationship. AND (personal testimony here) the real risk for the male is to be so "into" his woman that he seems needy.
> 
> As I've reviewed the last 5 years, I realize all those little behaviors/strategies to make her seem more important than me simply became standard operating procedure. All I can say is that I'm dead level certain this was standard operating procedure for her in every relationship.
> 
> Now that she's gone, when we speak, the dynamic has completely changed.
> 
> It's strange to feel actual respect from her - and to have the sort of in depth sharing of mutual views that we should have been having all along. It also feels good.
> 
> I miss the pheromes. But, all I have to do is remember the small and large discourtesies.
> 
> What a massively helpful learning experience.


Yes, it's called love, especially those pheromones, very real things those like gigantic irresistible magnets. Mines gone though, no more attraction whatsoever, zilch, nada. After 42 years it’s very strange for me, a strange world to be in but at the same time it feels good. Peace and calm has descended on me and I don’t want it ever disturbed again in the way it was.

Bob


----------



## max456

hate to bump up my own post with another question, but I'm learning from you guys 

the chemistry between us is great - but I've dug myself a hole in that we are opposites in many ways. I am more expressive than she - and I don't say no very well, or very often. Why? Because I don't like no. I don't like getting no's, and I don't like giving no's. The hole I'm in is that she knows this about me and clearly uses it to her advantage. Dynamics need to change

Forgive the preamble

as I had mentioned in my above post, this is a crazy week for me. Work assignments have picked up, have a friend in from out of town till Friday, gym time for my own santity, and plans scheduled Friday night (another female friend) as well as Saturday (family). I've decided to take the tract that I am not going to call her as I traditionally would. Often I'd just call during the day to say 'whats up'. Decided, at least as of last week, I'm going to stop that, and have done so. So since that point every communication has been from her end. On Sunday I had to help a friend with a favor. She called me and needed to pick something up of hers that I had with me. Told her I might be in the area later, and to call me back. Part of me (spite? yeah maybe a bit), wanted to just ignore the second call and go about my day...but she did need what I had, so we met, talked for 2 seconds, and went about our day. She called me later on in the day...I cut it real short as I was running errands. She called me Monday again. We spoke for a few minutes, and I said I had to go. Today she called me 3 times...I was busy all day, didn't take any of the calls. She left a voicemail, just said to give her a call, didn't call her back. As I said above got a friend in town for a few days who I have not spent time with in a while, so decided Im turning my cell phone off for the evening. I have also not been giving her the handouts ($) I have been in the past. I'm sure I'm going to get another call, or a text, at some point tonight, and certainly tomorrow. Tomorrow is her last final for the semester - I know she's excited. I'm ambivilant because I have my own stuff to attend to and I'm sorta enjoying demonstrating, more power than before. Question is this: I'm kinda enjoying the distance. Nice to not feel so tethered. At some point I will have to return the call. Do I not call her back at all till some point over the weekend? Do I just send a quick text and say "hey"? Yeah, I know, some of this is considered 'running game'..I admittedly suck at it. But at the same time, this one needs a lesson plan that I am not at her beck and call and that I do have a substantial life that doesn't revolve around her (as I've mistakenly demonstrated in the past)...and that she needs me more than I need her (since I am her means of financial support). She also needs to see/understand that when only 1 person is expressive, it can create resentment. I've told her this before, but always end up retreating right back to the same old behaviour...and I'm annoyed at myself for doing so. I'll be as expressive as she is to me, and I'll be as generous as she is to me - she can draw her own conclusions as to why. It's gone noticed already as she's made a few passing comments. So school me guys and girls. 

TIA


----------



## miserableinlove_35

OK so I understand the concept of a Fitness Test. Women says something to ruffle my feathers or creates a situation to do the same. How I handle it determines how she feels about me, how she sees me.
So overall if she makes fun of me, I'm supposed to ignore it or turn it back to her in a teasing manner. But don't get upset about it in anyway.
If it's a situation I should..... find a way to be comfortable in that situation.
I quote" He keeps trying to do what he thinks is right or what he thinks I want" Ok so what should he be doing if not what he thinks is right?
I need to learn to recognize the times that she is simply giving me a test, understand it as a test and respond in a positive manner? Never negative?
Or is every time a test?
Lasty Deejo seems to have found a crystal which turned him into a fitness test superman. where do I go to learn how to respond the best way?
I know that fixing my relationship is a long rocky road, that should be more about fixing myself and overall it might not save my relationship but I do have to start somewhere


----------



## BigBadWolf

"Fitness test" is a term mostly I have seen on this site.

In the rest of the world, the term is mostly "Sh!t test".

So spend time to google that term if wanted to really get some examples.

However be understanding, you will mostly in seduction or "gaming" culture websites, and that personally I am not a proponent of casual sex or using women for sex, so that should be clear.

However, the tests, between dating and marriage they are similar, and to pass them in proper attitude, is exactly the same as the married man even of many many years.

So it may be of benefit for these questions to see it in action in this example:

Edit: Old link no longer valid, here's the new one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gc6Tk6sRmA&feature=related


----------



## Deejo

These stood out in my mind. I wouldn't qualify these as fitness testing so much as I would boundary enforcement.

And yep, they were with the ex. To me they simply reflect how subtle this stuff can be if you pay attention.

Planning my son's birthday party. I stopped at the house after the kids were in bed. We small-talked about the kids, and my son. She's half-distracted looking at something while we're sitting across from one another and she says:

ex: "I have a job for you."
She isn't looking at me when she says it.
Long pause. I haven't responded. She looks up and at me. I have a smirk.
Me: "You'd like to make a request of me?"

Ex: "What?"

Me: "A request. You would like to ask me to do something?"

She pauses, thinks, purses her lips and nods acknowledgment.

Ex: "I'd like to ask you for a favor."

Me: Smiling "How can I help?"

Just a few moments later ... she is showing me pics she had done of the kids.

Ex: "Let me show you these, and then I'm kickin' you out."

Me: I look right at her again. "So you want me to see the photos, but you're tired and would like to go to bed?" Another pause.

Ex: Again with the pursed lips. "I'm sorry. I'm sorry for the sarcasm."

Me: Smiling. "You're forgiven. The pictures are beautiful. Good night." She smiled back.

Those little bitty things like that? Like waves on a beach. You don't see it in the moment, but over time, those waves erode the shore, or a marriage. Could I have just let it go? Sure I could have. That's certainly what she expected. She expected me to roll with demands couched in humor. Just take it. Just like the bad old days.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> These stood out in my mind. I wouldn't qualify these as fitness testing so much as I would boundary enforcement.
> 
> And yep, they were with the ex. To me they simply reflect how subtle this stuff can be if you pay attention.
> 
> Planning my son's birthday party. I stopped at the house after the kids were in bed. We small-talked about the kids, and my son. She's half-distracted looking at something while we're sitting across from one another and she says:
> 
> ex: "I have a job for you."
> She isn't looking at me when she says it.
> Long pause. I haven't responded. She looks up and at me. I have a smirk.
> Me: "You'd like to make a request of me?"
> 
> Ex: "What?"
> 
> Me: "A request. You would like to ask me to do something?"
> 
> She pauses, thinks, purses her lips and nods acknowledgment.
> 
> Ex: "I'd like to ask you for a favor."
> 
> Me: Smiling "How can I help?"
> 
> Just a few moments later ... she is showing me pics she had done of the kids.
> 
> Ex: "Let me show you these, and then I'm kickin' you out."
> 
> Me: I look right at her again. "So you want me to see the photos, but you're tired and would like to go to bed?" Another pause.
> 
> Ex: Again with the pursed lips. "I'm sorry. I'm sorry for the sarcasm."
> 
> Me: Smiling. "You're forgiven. The pictures are beautiful. Good night." She smiled back.
> 
> Those little bitty things like that? Like waves on a beach. You don't see it in the moment, but over time, those waves erode the shore, or a marriage. Could I have just let it go? Sure I could have. That's certainly what she expected. She expected me to roll with demands couched in humor. Just take it. Just like the bad old days.


What am I missing here Deejo? She asked you to take a look at photos of the kids she just had done. How is that a favor OR a test?


----------



## nader

it's the kicking out part. She was rudely saying, 'do this one last thing for me and then leave.' Deejo subtly but effectively called her out on her rudeness, she recognized it and apologied. Very, very subtle, but telling.


----------



## Mom6547

Therealbrighteyes said:


> What am I missing here Deejo? She asked you to take a look at photos of the kids she just had done. How is that a favor OR a test?


She was being pretty rude. It wasn't a test. But he did have to set boundaries on what he was willing to tolerate.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

"ex: "I have a job for you."
She isn't looking at me when she says it.
Long pause. I haven't responded. She looks up and at me. I have a smirk.
Me: "You'd like to make a request of me?"

Ex: "What?"

Me: "A request. You would like to ask me to do something?"

She pauses, thinks, purses her lips and nods acknowledgment.

Ex: "I'd like to ask you for a favor." 

This all went down BEFORE she said she wanted him to leave. All this to say "take a look at our kids pics"? Jebus. This sounds like a stage production, not human interaction.


----------



## Conrad

Therealbrighteyes said:


> What am I missing here Deejo? She asked you to take a look at photos of the kids she just had done. How is that a favor OR a test?


Brennan,

You don't see how these questions make her more important than him?


----------



## Mom6547

Therealbrighteyes said:


> "ex: "I have a job for you."
> She isn't looking at me when she says it.
> Long pause. I haven't responded. She looks up and at me. I have a smirk.
> Me: "You'd like to make a request of me?"


Right there. I would have done the EXACT same thing, but it would not have taken DH less time to realize he was being rude.

I have a job for you, indeed.


----------



## nader

How about this one.

Two nights ago she told me that it was going to be cleaning night - no tv, computers, etc. until we got some straightening up done. She asked me to clean off the floor next to my side of the bed; she particularly doesn't like the way I have my laptop set up there, b/c "it's always the last thing you do before you go to bed and the first thing you do in the morning" (not entirely true.).

I told her that I am paying a major chunk of the bills right now and I am going to set my laptop the way I want to, that this is MY home just as much as hers (the mortgage is in her parents name but we - mainly I - am making the payments right now). After some back and forth arguing, she said, fine, I'm just going to get in the shower and we can forget about cleaning tonight.

To give you some background, we have LOTS of clutter and work to be done in the house (most of it is hers, but that is beyond the scope of this story). We would like my parents to be able to visit in the next couple weeks, so any time we decide to clean I am all over it, and she knows it.

So she locked herself in the bathroom for awhile to pout.. after a few minutes I started pounding on the door, and we argued some more. The gist of it was that I told her she was being selfish and extremely childish to behave this way, and that she was holding the evening hostage by having this attitude. That this was not about my laptop but it was about control and getting her way. I told her that if she didn't think she could clean, maybe she should go for a drive, go see her sister, etc. To which she of course responded quietly, no, I'll be fine, etc. We got back to cleaning our separate areas - I did stuff in the bathroom and she worked in the kitchen. I compromised by finding another way to set my laptop up in the same place, and she seemed ok with it.

After cleaning time while she was in the shower, I lit some candles and put on the love song channel on pandora, we slow danced for awhile and then had freaky makeup sex. Afterwards while I was holding her, I explained that when she talks that way to me I WILL call her out on it, and that not to do so would be a disservice to both of us. She said she completely understood. The next night, after more freaky sex, she apologized to me for the way she acted.

The whole incident seems to me like a microcosm of where our relationship is these days (good and bad!) and one of my best successes to date in handling one of these 'fitness tests.'


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> Brennan,
> 
> You don't see how these questions make her more important than him?


I guess I don't see it as an important/non-important "test". It's weird, that's for sure! I would never start a conversation with the father of my children asking him to take a look at the picture of his kids as "I have a job for you" and then drag it out bantering back and forth noticing body language, lip smacking, etc. Who has time for all that? Hey, maybe I am more normal than I thought! :smthumbup:


----------



## BigBadWolf

Therealbrighteyes said:


> This sounds like a stage production, not human interaction.


Remember, fitness test, this is for sparking sexual attraction, or killing sexual attraction.

Mere human interaction, is taking these things literally.

Men who do so, often wonder how they are stuck in the friend zone. 

This is taking things like fitness testing at face value, literal, point a to point b stuff, not to mention avoiding conflict. When a man does these things, he is in the friend zone or worse.

But you say a stage production, this is not too far off the mark!

Like asking, Why take the time to dance with a beautiful woman back and forth and around and across the ballroom floor, when it is easy to merely walk from point A to point B?

Because the dancing is the point.

Sexual attraction and conflict, between a man and woman, there is not getting the former without overcoming or demonstrating mastery over the latter.


----------



## Deejo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> What am I missing here Deejo? She asked you to take a look at photos of the kids she just had done. How is that a favor OR a test?


They were two different circumstances during our exchange. The 'job' was not related to looking at the photos. And yeah, she was trying to be cute and rude at the same time ... both times.

That dynamic was common when we were together, the 'she says jump, I ask how high' model. She still tests those waters from time to time. That exchange was one example. To my mind, in our exchanges at this point, it's about respect.

Going back to the Golden Rule, she wouldn't appreciate being treated in that way.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

BigBadWolf said:


> Remember, fitness test, this is for sparking sexual attraction, or killing sexual attraction.
> 
> Mere human interaction, is taking these things literally.
> 
> Men who do so, often wonder how they are stuck in the friend zone.
> 
> This is taking things like fitness testing at face value, literal, point a to point b stuff, not to mention avoiding conflict. When a man does these things, he is in the friend zone or worse.
> 
> But you say a stage production, this is not too far off the mark!
> 
> Like asking, Why take the time to dance with a beautiful woman back and forth and around and across the ballroom floor, when it is easy to merely walk from point A to point B?
> 
> Because the dancing is the point.
> 
> Sexual attraction and conflict, between a man and woman, there is not getting the former without overcoming or demonstrating mastery over the latter.


Yes but the interaction that Burgundy and ex had sounds anything but sexy and surely not the dance of seduction. It sounded robotic and ridiculous. She's a drama llama for sure but he feeds in to it. I don't see it as a test, I see it as dysfunction and LOADS of unresolved issues if that "conversation" is any indication.


----------



## BigBadWolf

Nader,

Thank you for sharing this.

I am following your other thread, very well done.

The dynamic you are discovering and changing, you are exactly where you need to be. The "freaky sex" is the perfect barometer.

And this: Recognizing it is not about the laptop, sadly many many MANY men never reach that point.

To see things as they are, very difficult. Good for you! :smthumbup:

But once there, instead of this type of conflict creating confusion and arguing, the man will learn to settle in his confidence and strength and understanding of what is happening, and develop and master the fitness test with humor and grace and amusement, to the delight of his woman.

When between a man and woman there is laughter, amusement, communication, and much wild "freaky sex", the relationship is on course! 



nader said:


> How about this one.
> 
> Two nights ago she told me that it was going to be cleaning night - no tv, computers, etc. until we got some straightening up done. She asked me to clean off the floor next to my side of the bed; she particularly doesn't like the way I have my laptop set up there, b/c "it's always the last thing you do before you go to bed and the first thing you do in the morning" (not entirely true.).
> 
> I told her that I am paying a major chunk of the bills right now and I am going to set my laptop the way I want to, that this is MY home just as much as hers (the mortgage is in her parents name but we - mainly I - am making the payments right now). After some back and forth arguing, she said, fine, I'm just going to get in the shower and we can forget about cleaning tonight.
> 
> To give you some background, we have LOTS of clutter and work to be done in the house (most of it is hers, but that is beyond the scope of this story). We would like my parents to be able to visit in the next couple weeks, so any time we decide to clean I am all over it, and she knows it.
> 
> So she locked herself in the bathroom for awhile to pout.. after a few minutes I started pounding on the door, and we argued some more. The gist of it was that I told her she was being selfish and extremely childish to behave this way, and that she was holding the evening hostage by having this attitude. That this was not about my laptop but it was about control and getting her way. I told her that if she didn't think she could clean, maybe she should go for a drive, go see her sister, etc. To which she of course responded quietly, no, I'll be fine, etc. We got back to cleaning our separate areas - I did stuff in the bathroom and she worked in the kitchen. I compromised by finding another way to set my laptop up in the same place, and she seemed ok with it.
> 
> After cleaning time while she was in the shower, I lit some candles and put on the love song channel on pandora, we slow danced for awhile and then had freaky makeup sex. Afterwards while I was holding her, I explained that when she talks that way to me I WILL call her out on it, and that not to do so would be a disservice to both of us. She said she completely understood. The next night, after more freaky sex, she apologized to me for the way she acted.
> 
> The whole incident seems to me like a microcosm of where our relationship is these days (good and bad!) and one of my best successes to date in handling one of these 'fitness tests.'


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> They were two different circumstances during our exchange. The 'job' was not related to looking at the photos. And yeah, she was trying to be cute and rude at the same time ... both times.
> 
> That dynamic was common when we were together, the 'she says jump, I ask how high' model. She still tests those waters from time to time. That exchange was one example. To my mind, in our exchanges at this point, it's about respect.
> 
> Going back to the Golden Rule, she wouldn't appreciate being treated in that way.


I think you enjoy it.  To me, it just sounds exhausting.


----------



## Deejo

nader said:


> How about this one.
> 
> Two nights ago she told me that it was going to be cleaning night - no tv, computers, etc. until we got some straightening up done. She asked me to clean off the floor next to my side of the bed; she particularly doesn't like the way I have my laptop set up there, b/c "it's always the last thing you do before you go to bed and the first thing you do in the morning" (not entirely true.).
> 
> I told her that I am paying a major chunk of the bills right now and I am going to set my laptop the way I want to, that this is MY home just as much as hers (the mortgage is in her parents name but we - mainly I - am making the payments right now). After some back and forth arguing, she said, fine, I'm just going to get in the shower and we can forget about cleaning tonight.
> 
> To give you some background, we have LOTS of clutter and work to be done in the house (most of it is hers, but that is beyond the scope of this story). We would like my parents to be able to visit in the next couple weeks, so any time we decide to clean I am all over it, and she knows it.
> 
> So she locked herself in the bathroom for awhile to pout.. after a few minutes I started pounding on the door, and we argued some more. The gist of it was that I told her she was being selfish and extremely childish to behave this way, and that she was holding the evening hostage by having this attitude. That this was not about my laptop but it was about control and getting her way. I told her that if she didn't think she could clean, maybe she should go for a drive, go see her sister, etc. To which she of course responded quietly, no, I'll be fine, etc. We got back to cleaning our separate areas - I did stuff in the bathroom and she worked in the kitchen. I compromised by finding another way to set my laptop up in the same place, and she seemed ok with it.
> 
> After cleaning time while she was in the shower, I lit some candles and put on the love song channel on pandora, we slow danced for awhile and then had freaky makeup sex. Afterwards while I was holding her, I explained that when she talks that way to me I WILL call her out on it, and that not to do so would be a disservice to both of us. She said she completely understood. The next night, after more freaky sex, she apologized to me for the way she acted.
> 
> The whole incident seems to me like a microcosm of where our relationship is these days (good and bad!) and one of my best successes to date in handling one of these 'fitness tests.'


Yup ... she still digs you. Congrats.


----------



## Conrad

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I think you enjoy it.  To me, it just sounds exhausting.


Maybe you should have tested him more.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> Maybe you should have tested him more.


Nah, he's a wall treatment kind of guy. I'm a latex paint kind of girl.


----------



## Conrad

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Nah, he's a wall treatment kind of guy. I'm a latex paint kind of girl.


I've always liked you.


----------



## Deejo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I think you enjoy it.  To me, it just sounds exhausting.


As a matter of fact ... yer Goddamn right I enjoy it. It's like learning the secret of hitting a knuckle ball when all you've ever done is strike out previously.

It's not exhausting. The responses become as second nature as the tests or pokes that warrant them. 

You stop thinking, and just 'do'. It isn't nearly as contrived as I'm sure you imagine it.


----------



## nader

> Yup ... she still digs you. Congrats.


I to mention the best part.. while we were slow dancing by candlelight, she looked at me and said, "I don't deserve this." I could have said, "of course you deserve this, you are awesome, etc. etc." but instead I just whispered back, "it doesn't matter, I love you."


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> I've always liked you.


Yeah, but you didn't offer to take ME out for a drink, now did you?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> As a matter of fact ... yer Goddamn right I enjoy it. It's like learning the secret of hitting a knuckle ball when all you've ever done is strike out previously.
> 
> It's not exhausting. The responses become as second nature as the tests or pokes that warrant them.
> 
> You stop thinking, and just 'do'. It isn't nearly as contrived as I'm sure you imagine it.


I know you love it! You live for it. Why? Ya want her back. Yeah, I said it. Say what?


----------



## Conrad

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I know you love it! You live for it. Why? Ya want her back. Yeah, I said it. Say what?


He's in exactly the same boat I am.

He wants her back, but only if she'll own her shix.

He doesn't see that happening.

Neither do I.


----------



## Conrad

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yeah, but you didn't offer to take ME out for a drink, now did you?


I was afraid you'd pull your shirt up.


----------



## eagleclaw

Geez, I might take her out for a drink in that case. lol.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> He's in exactly the same boat I am.
> 
> He wants her back, but only if she'll own her shix.
> 
> He doesn't see that happening.
> 
> Neither do I.


I don't either so instead he does a warped tango with her? In this situation BOTH these two are testing each other and getting their kicks doing it. See, fitness testing isn't gender specific. Another mystery solved.


----------



## Danny Boy

I'm having trouble understanding all this. Well, not the part that women test us men. I'm sure they do and I'm sure some of them do it consciously and that some of them do it unconsciously. Also, if it's a matter of being single, testing really isn't all that wrong in my eyes and it's probably ingrained to test but what are we really talking about? The conscious, trying to be a PITA testing of our patience or more of an evolutionary, involuntary, unconscious testing of our ability to care for them? Or as one poster put it, "throwing curve balls" at us. It seems to me that it is downright mean and vicious to put someone in a position where they have to make a choice about how to behave just to keep the affection of someone that gave THEIR WORD, THEIR VOW that they would give their love and affection to us unconditionally. How is that unconditional and isn't it hypocritical to think that they can behave anyway they want but the person they gave their word to has to conform to their personality preferences? Wasn't the point to grow together? Seems like a manipulation of sorts on the part of the woman by trying to make her partner behave a certain way and a manipulation of sorts on the part of the man (maybe) behaving in a way he wouldn't normally trying to convince the woman he is someone he isn't? Seems like at this point it is now a GAME to be won with lies and deceit. I agree at times I feel like my wife is testing me but at the same time I feel like she's very often playing a game of cat and mouse to see what she can get away with, what I will get angry at, or what I won't, just so she can go do whatever the hell she wants. Playing games like that isn't a marriage is it? Maybe I'm naive but it seems to me the games and the testing is yet another excuse for poor behavior on the part of one or the other partner in a marriage and if it's at that point it might as well be ended. It's a partnership in my eyes, not a game to be won. Am I wrong?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> I was afraid you'd pull your shirt up.


Should I quote Seinfeld?


----------



## eagleclaw

In my world - it was the same as everyone else here. **** test, I get angry - things go down hill fast.

Since I have caught on and have been trying to respond differently she generally knows right away from my body language that she has gone to far - and will often correct her self before I have even had a chance to react verbally - which is good. A few times recently, she has even suggested "I'm sorry, you can spank me later" 

Not sure where that came from as other than love pats going by I have never done that - although I have threatened too in jest.

Occassionally she will double down on some bad behaviour and I will lose my cool (old habits are hard to break) and at these times things do go sideways as they always have. However - with the newfound respect she has for me this doesn't last very long where it used to last for days.

An move in the right direction for sure....


----------



## Deejo

Conrad said:


> He's in exactly the same boat I am.
> 
> He wants her back, but only if she'll own her shix.
> 
> He doesn't see that happening.
> 
> Neither do I.


I do not choose someone that does not choose me. Not anymore.

As I've stated before, we won't go back. But ... we still play. And it's fun.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> I do not choose someone that does not choose me. Not anymore.
> 
> As I've stated before, we won't go back. But ... we still play. And it's fun.


Or you could focus your energy on somebody who does chose you. Let her play with herself. Er, you know what I mean.


----------



## Deejo

nader said:


> I to mention the best part.. while we were slow dancing by candlelight, she looked at me and said, "I don't deserve this." I could have said, "of course you deserve this, you are awesome, etc. etc." but instead I just whispered back, "it doesn't matter, I love you."


:FIREdevil: 

If those circumstances come up again, and she uses the, "I don't deserve this." line? 

Take this one for a spin: "You're probably right, but I do."

With that, you are emphasizing being playful, forgiving, and that you have high value.


----------



## Deejo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Or you could focus your energy on somebody who does chose you. Let her play with herself. Er, you know what I mean.


Already underway my dear. I'm keeping it light. I have made a commitment to myself, nothing heavy until the ink is dry on the divorce ... which if the Commonwealth cooperates will be in six months.


----------



## nader

Deejo said:


> :FIREdevil:
> 
> If those circumstances come up again, and she uses the, "I don't deserve this." line?
> 
> Take this one for a spin: "You're probably right, but I do."
> 
> With that, you are emphasizing being playful, forgiving, and that you have high value.


ooh, I like it!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Already underway my dear. I'm keeping it light. I have made a commitment to myself, nothing heavy until the ink is dry on the divorce ... which if the Commonwealth cooperates will be in six months.


You guys aren't divorced yet?! No wonder you two play all these games.


----------



## Danny Boy

eagleclaw said:


> ...
> Since I have caught on and have been trying to respond differently she generally knows right away from my body language that she has gone to far - and will often correct her self before I have even had a chance to react verbally - which is good. A few times recently, she has even suggested "I'm sorry, you can spank me later"
> ...
> An move in the right direction for sure....


Again, isn't that still just a game? Not that she needs to know you wouldn't like something she is doing. Or that you disagree with how she approaching you but aren't you in a way now manipulating her? If not, how do you know she isn't manipulating you into thinking you've passed the test only for the moment or until she's found something else she sees as flaw just so she can use it as an excuse to behave whatever way she wants? That isn't love and respect. 

My point is that there's no respect there if it's just a game. There's no respect for how you feel. It's only a respect for the fact that you're catching on and she's learning what she can and can't get away with. Or just learn how to get away with something she knows you wouldn't like in the future. Is that a marriage? All this talk of testing makes me feel like women are always looking for a way out or at least a way to have their cake and eat it to. How can that be? Aren't people supposed to be inherently good? Especially the one we fell in love with?


----------



## Deejo

What's wrong with it being a game? Seriously. Particularly if playing the game _correctly_ gets you that respect?

Important to note, that many of the men posting about this stuff, myself included, are coming from relationships where respect has already gone out the window. For those that want to keep their relationships, and recover respect, being tuned into this stuff is never, ever, going to make your situation worse, and likely, it will make it a whole lot better.


----------



## Danny Boy

Deejo said:


> What's wrong with it being a game? Seriously. Particularly if playing the game _correctly_ gets you that respect?
> 
> Important to note, that many of the men posting about this stuff, myself included, are coming from relationships where respect has already gone out the window. For those that want to keep their relationships, and recover respect, being tuned into this stuff is never, ever, going to make your situation worse, and likely, it will make it a whole lot better.


Nothing wrong with getting respect. I feel like my wife doesn't have respect for me sometimes too and sometimes I feel like she does. I found this forum for the same reasons a lot of you did. To try to find ways to convince her that I want a little more respect even though I've said those exact words to her. It's the respect you get FROM the game I have the issue with. That's not respect for you. It's respect for the fact that you catch her testing you and react the way SHE WANTS. Isn't that her manipulating you or you manipulating her depending on if she is doing it consciously or not? It's Ok. I get it. Girlfriend, friends that you'd like to pick up, start a relationship with etc. It helps. It's a game to find a mate, but once you have that mate and she learns who you really are and you learn who she is, what now? You're committed to growing together but still playing manipulation games or still trying to WIN her affection? She said, "I DO". If she's still testing then she hasn't committed! In and of itself the "testing" is proof she is lying to you...and even if you pass her tests today, if she tests again (and she will) she doesn't respect you no matter what you do. That's not how you treat someone you love. That's called getting over on someone. I'm not picking, trying to fight or judge. I'm just trying to understand.

Side note: I'm still not quite sure exactly if and when my wife is testing me. Are there typical signs? Doing something I don't like purposefully? Say she's going to be home at 10 and come home at 11? 

For example, she presented me with a bachelorette party this summer. She was very up front and said, "There is a schedule: dinner, "live entertainment" at the bachelorette's house, then drinking and dancing. Before she asked if it was ok if she went I said, "No. I don't mind if you go to dinner to celebrate but the love of my life isn't getting dry humped by a gay meat-head in a g-string. I don't want you in the situation where you are being pressured to behave in ways that would make me uncomfortable". Now that was me being honest. Not putting up a front for respect. Was she testing me? If she was, did I pass? For the reasons I listed above something like this would hurt me terribly. Probably just as much as if she had strayed. It just says that she would stray in an instant. Again, I'm not judging or trying to pick a fight. I'm just trying to understand and decide if that's what she's doing in our marriage.


----------



## MEM2020

Danny,
You handled the bachlorette party great. How did she respond?

I have learned something about my wife. She is incredibly playful.
Sports, board games, verbal sparring with me, wrestling/play fighting
With me. AND testing my cool, my patience and emotional strength.
Her NEED for conflict and tests of skill strength is as strong as my
Sex drive. Turns out that if you get good at this stuff it just
Makes the day soooooo much fun.


Boy;330431]Nothing wrong with getting respect. I feel like my wife doesn't have respect for me sometimes too and sometimes I feel like she does. I found this forum for the same reasons a lot of you did. To try to find ways to convince her that I want a little more respect even though I've said those exact words to her. It's the respect you get FROM the game I have the issue with. That's not respect for you. It's respect for the fact that you catch her testing you and react the way SHE WANTS. Isn't that her manipulating you or you manipulating her depending on if she is doing it consciously or not? It's Ok. I get it. Girlfriend, friends that you'd like to pick up, start a relationship with etc. It helps. It's a game to find a mate, but once you have that mate and she learns who you really are and you learn who she is, what now? You're committed to growing together but still playing manipulation games or still trying to WIN her affection? She said, "I DO". If she's still testing then she hasn't committed! In and of itself the "testing" is proof she is lying to you...and even if you pass her tests today, if she tests again (and she will) she doesn't respect you no matter what you do. That's not how you treat someone you love. That's called getting over on someone. I'm not picking, trying to fight or judge. I'm just trying to understand.

Side note: I'm still not quite sure exactly if and when my wife is testing me. Are there typical signs? Doing something I don't like purposefully? Say she's going to be home at 10 and come home at 11? 

For example, she presented me with a bachelorette party this summer. She was very up front and said, "There is a schedule: dinner, "live entertainment" at the bachelorette's house, then drinking and dancing. Before she asked if it was ok if she went I said, "No. I don't mind if you go to dinner to celebrate but the love of my life isn't getting dry humped by a gay meat-head in a g-string. I don't want you in the situation where you are being pressured to behave in ways that would make me uncomfortable". Now that was me being honest. Not putting up a front for respect. Was she testing me? If she was, did I pass? For the reasons I listed above something like this would hurt me terribly. Probably just as much as if she had strayed. It just says that she would stray in an instant. Again, I'm not judging or trying to pick a fight. I'm just trying to understand and decide if that's what she's doing in our marriage.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> I thought you and yours were in a great place? How did things go south so quickly? Don't be telling me there's no such thing as work on yourself, discover together and then happily ever after. Sucks.


Trenton,

Application of the principles here energized our romance to levels not seen since the early days of the relationship.

So, my reports were accurate. The temperature was white hot between us.

Yet, as Deejo points out, the respect was missing. I finally realized that I was "low man" in my own house. I wasn't there merely to provide for her children, they were never shown I was worthy of the slightest respect.

That wall was built brick by brick over the years and I sensed something was wrong. We talked about each individual incident and I can never remember her taking up for me once.

A few weeks ago, one of her adult children dogged me (brushing against me) in a profane tirade and initiated a physical altercation. I did not return any of the physical stuff, but once I was struck, I called her a profane name.

Here was the response from my partner

"You can't talk that way to my kids"

All of a sudden, that mountain of evidence came into full view. She asked me to move out and we could date.

I told her if anyone was leaving, it was to be her.


----------



## Danny Boy

MEM11363 said:


> Danny,
> You handled the bachlorette party great. How did she respond?
> 
> I have learned something about my wife. She is incredibly playful.
> Sports, board games, verbal sparring with me, wrestling/play fighting
> With me. AND testing my cool, my patience and emotional strength.
> Her NEED for conflict and tests of skill strength is as strong as my
> Sex drive. Turns out that if you get good at this stuff it just
> Makes the day soooooo much fun.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She told me that she wasn't planning on going for the "live entertainment", drinking and dancing anyway and that she isn't going at all if nobody else is bailing after dinner. I tend not to believe it though. My thoughts are she probably really wants to go and is now griping to her girlfriends about how controlling I am. Which is what I really fear. I fear that she will resent me and say that I don't trust her but that's not my problem. I just don't want some guy putting his junk in her face pressuring her to do things with it or rubbing it all over her. That's what I'm supposed to be doing! Not some dude that's built like a brick $#!thouse with a schwantz as big as my arm. We all know the herd mentality and one upping that goes on at these things and it only takes one wild one for it to get out of control...and let me tell you the bachelorette is it. She certainly will be doing more than watching and not that I think my wife wants to cheat, either. I just think peer pressure might be stronger than her will power with this crew. I feel so sorry for the poor [email protected][email protected] marrying this girl. He's going to find out 10 years into it that she was b!#$ing the stripper the night before the wedding.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> Sorry to read this. Hopefully she gives you the respect you deserve.


As nice as that is to fantasize about, it's highly unlikely.

I believe she only sees the benefits of limit-setting and discipline with children when they aren't her own.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

Conrad said:


> As nice as that is to fantasize about, it's highly unlikely.
> 
> I believe she only sees the benefits of limit-setting and discipline with children when they aren't her own.


Her own are too close to herself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hellothere

I've only read 9 of the pages of this post so far and my head hurts!

I'm newly married (6 months now) and I'm quite gullible and naive. I never heard of these "fitness tests" or ever (deliberately) given my husband one. I think I am JUST now starting to understand WHAT they are....after 9 pages of reading....I have to stop now though because I feel like my head is going to explode!

Just a few questions to help my comprehension...why spend all the energy scheming and planning instead of being honest outright? Seems to me deliberate fitness tests take heaps of thought and planning to put into place...

I COULD understand spur of the moment fitness tests but intentional ones seem like too much effort to me.

Is the below a fitness test?

My sister-in-law was explaining to me how to get my husband to agree to anything I wanted by using exaggeration. She then told me she used this tactic on my brother by saying she wanted to fly across the country on a shopping trip with a bunch of her girlfriends for a shopping spree. My brother would go "whoa!" but then a few weeks later she would tell him that her friends couldn't go but she was going anyway so she could visit her mother. That way the cost of the ticket seems so much more reasonable because there's no shopping spree attached to it. (I must say the entire time she was telling me this I was cringing thinking...my poor brother! She's much better now though and she is much more upfront and blunt with my brother. I think she was really manipulative due to her traumatic childhood).


----------



## Deejo

hellothere said:


> I've only read 9 of the pages of this post so far and my head hurts!
> 
> Just a few questions to help my comprehension...why spend all the energy scheming and planning instead of being honest outright? Seems to me deliberate fitness tests take heaps of thought and planning to put into place...
> 
> I COULD understand spur of the moment fitness tests but intentional ones seem like too much effort to me.


Welcome to the forums. Congratulations on your marriage. Sorry about your headache ... 

Most of the time, they are not 'schemed'. As another poster points out, they are primal and emotional. The reasons for or behind them may be very, very subtle, or extraordinarily overt. I would never call the subtext of a fitness test 'dishonest'. On the contrary, the fitness test is manifested as a direct result of emotional honesty. Either your partner thinks you are an emotional doormat, or she is trying to determine how far she can push you, and what your response will be when she pushes too far. They are about establishing emotional boundaries and providing a sense of stability, or instability within the relationship dynamic.

A very, simple, classic example. You are both sprawled on the couch watching television. And you state, "I would love you so much, if you got me a glass of water."
If you REALLY were thirsty, you'd get up and get your own. It's a sh!t test. Even moreso with that specific language because you are framing the request in terms of approval or disapproval based upon his performance. Make sense?




> Is the below a fitness test?
> 
> My sister-in-law was explaining to me how to get my husband to agree to anything I wanted by using exaggeration. She then told me she used this tactic on my brother by saying she wanted to fly across the country on a shopping trip with a bunch of her girlfriends for a shopping spree. My brother would go "whoa!" but then a few weeks later she would tell him that her friends couldn't go but she was going anyway so she could visit her mother. That way the cost of the ticket seems so much more reasonable because there's no shopping spree attached to it. (I must say the entire time she was telling me this I was cringing thinking...my poor brother! She's much better now though and she is much more upfront and blunt with my brother. I think she was really manipulative due to her traumatic childhood).


No that isn't a fitness test. That is simply a manipulative lie.


----------



## BigBadWolf

uphillbattle said:


> My question on this is, do I attempt to keep up with somebody who can take the side of why serial killers are good in a debate and WIN or do I cut my losses and try to make up for this in other areas where I know I have failed in the past?


I'm not sure engaging in philosophical or social debates is truly "fitness test", so perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

A smart woman is indeed a sexy woman of course, but fitness testing is not about winning or losing a debate. 

Fitness testing springs from a women's subconscious (primal) desire to know and experience how her man can handle a challenge. 

ANd lacking an immediate external challenge (in the primitive past, such as experiencing her man combating a rival suitor or taking down a dangerous or cunning game animal, and in modern times experiencing her man excelling at sports, or career, or social finesse, or musical instrument, or being a leader in some fashion, etc), she simply will create the challenge and become the challenge herself. 

Often men lament this when they don't understand what is really going on, and say their woman "creates drama", or "is a nag" or "is a b!tch" or some other negative partial explanation. 

But regarding fitness test, the best way to "win" a fitness test is simply not to fight.

Because even if a man is to "win" a debate, he may lose the test, because he got thrown off balance and caught up to begin with, because it is primal, emotional, and NOT about logic or reason.

Fitness test, do NOT take them literally!

And that is the point of passing fitness test. 

As a man, when you are confronted with some fitness test, or sh!t test, be 100 percent confident it is appropriate to acknowledge it is a test, such as with a smile, or a wink, or to develop "that look" that communicates that you know exactly what is going on here. 

Or to simply ignore whatever is the sh!t test completely.

Or to ignore it and say something in return completely off the wall. 

Your woman says something intending to throw you offbalance. You might look at her and comment how sexy her eyes look, or how you are thinking of taking some time off work to do something you enjoy, or how her lips would look really good around your d!ck. 

Anything really, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme what you "say", it is all about your attitude, and inside your woman, your calm confidence, even yes, irrational egotism as long as it is grounded in humor, creates in her an incredible primal admriation and respect, and sexual attractoin, and pride in her man.

And just as important, sexual (emotional) pride in herself, that she is so much the woman as to have the attraction of this kind of man. 

So see how the man passing fitness tests, and displaying confidence, is nipping in the bud many of the issues rooted in his woman's insecurity, that often is the source of so much emotional and sexual relationship problems.


----------



## wtaylor

Hmm...Fitness Tests debunked?

http://lifestylejourney.blogspot.com/2010/06/****-test.html

(need to insert sh!t where the four asterisks is).


----------



## Deejo

wtaylor said:


> Hmm...Fitness Tests debunked?
> 
> http://lifestylejourney.blogspot.com/2010/06/****-test.html
> 
> (need to insert sh!t where the four asterisks is).


You're talking about speed seduction and the PUA community. Some of the core elements surrounding attraction may remain in play but when you are talking about following the '3 second rule' versus having lived with the same woman for a decade ... we're talking apples and oranges.

The more interested, engaged, and secure she feels, the less you will be tested. But the fact remains ... you will be tested.

Is everything a fitness test? No.

But if you are in a LTR, and your partner is consistently challenging you, belittling you, or generally being disrespectful, it's time to reinforce your personal boundaries, and learn how to pass sh!t tests.


----------



## BigBadWolf

I don't support the PUA community, as I abhore seeking and using and disposing of women for casual sex. And yes, PUA tactics especially as practiced by an inexperienced man, can and often do, come across as just plain strange, weird, or odd.

So not to defend seduction community, but that article was a more wordy version of a very old argument, simply stating, that "Sh!t tests are not logical, therefore they must not exist".

I will never argue that sh!t tests are logical.

But I will state without apology and 100 percent that they certainly exist.


----------



## wtaylor

Deejo said:


> You're talking about speed seduction and the PUA community. Some of the core elements surrounding attraction may remain in play but when you are talking about following the '3 second rule' versus having lived with the same woman for a decade ... we're talking apples and oranges.
> 
> The more interested, engaged, and secure she feels, the less you will be tested. But the fact remains ... you will be tested.
> 
> Is everything a fitness test? No.
> 
> But if you are in a LTR, and your partner is consistently challenging you, belittling you, or generally being disrespectful, it's time to reinforce your personal boundaries, and learn how to pass sh!t tests.


Ah, well...I never noticed the context where the blog appeared, it just came up in a Google search. I have renewed faith...cause at this point, I have no idea what else I can try. I just hope I can be quick at identifying the test and be even quicker with the right response...and not think of the right one 20 minutes later.


----------



## Conrad

wtaylor said:


> Ah, well...I never noticed the context where the blog appeared, it just came up in a Google search. I have renewed faith...cause at this point, I have no idea what else I can try. I just hope I can be quick at identifying the test and be even quicker with the right response...and not think of the right one 20 minutes later.


In general, questions that have no "winning" answers are a good place to start.

"Honey, do these pants make my ass look fat?"


----------



## wtaylor

Conrad said:


> In general, questions that have no "winning" answers are a good place to start.
> 
> "Honey, do these pants make my ass look fat?"


If only they were that obvious. That's like a landmine someone forgot to bury.


----------



## BigBadWolf

wtaylor said:


> I just hope I can be quick at identifying the test and be even quicker with the right response...and not think of the right one 20 minutes later.


Understand this, the "right" answer is hardly the point. 

Recognizing the fitness tests when the come, do that and the battle is already practically won. 

How witty and humorous is your response is, that is merely icing on the cake, and don't worry, in a short time the icing WILL come!

Here's some food for thought, from a woman's perspective and geared more for dating relations, but very accurate regarding the underpinnings of sh!t tests, underpinnings that are very much in play throughout a sexual relationship, even years and decades along:

http://hotalphafemale.com/2011/04/troubleshootingthe****test.html

(put "sh!t" spelled out instead of the ****)

http://hotalphafemale.com/2008/09/take-my-****e-and-ill-love-you-forver.html

(put "sh!t" spelled out instead of the ****)

Hot Alpha Female » Blog Archive » The Real Reason Why Women Test Guys And What To Do About It


----------



## uphillbattle

Thanks you guys. I am begining to see these tests as they happen and it appears to be no less than 4-5 times in the 4 hours I am awake after I get home from work. Now I need to work on recognizing them quickly enough to give a quick responce and I should be ok.


----------



## Conrad

uphillbattle said:


> Thanks you guys. I am begining to see these tests as they happen and it appears to be no less than 4-5 times in the 4 hours I am awake after I get home from work. Now I need to work on recognizing them quickly enough to give a quick responce and I should be ok.


You will get good at it.

It's a matter of recognition and mastering the language.


----------



## ManDup

uphillbattle said:


> Thanks you guys. I am begining to see these tests as they happen and it appears to be no less than 4-5 times in the 4 hours I am awake after I get home from work. Now I need to work on recognizing them quickly enough to give a quick responce and I should be ok.


Just whatever you do, don't take them at face value. "Why'd you shut the car door that way? The right way is to blah blah blah"

"That's how I roll, baby". or even "..." (blink).

Your wife is not your mother.


----------



## Conrad

ManDup said:


> Just whatever you do, don't take them at face value. "Why'd you shut the car door that way? The right way is to blah blah blah"
> 
> "That's how I roll, baby". or even "..." (blink).
> 
> Your wife is not your mother.


Most get in this position by not making that distinction.


----------



## uphillbattle

Have noticed a major differnce in my interactaions with my wife latley. I have been catching most sh!t tests as they come along and they have been getting less and less each day. 
One thing that trips me up 100% is this. I don't always think things through and often say or do stupid sh!t. I have a very high I.Q. but a complete lack of common sense at times (my friends have always said I am "the dumbest smart person they know). How do I approach it when I know I have done something stupid and she calls me on it?


----------



## Deejo

Depends.

Are you actually doing something stupid, or is she just looking for sh!t to call you on?

Example?


----------



## uphillbattle

I usualy know it is stupid before being called out on it.


----------



## Deejo

Then just own it and move on.

"You're right, I could have handled that better."

Or ...

"I struggle with that from time to time."

If you own it, she has nowhere to go ... unless she is just looking to be mean, at which point you put the kybosh on her shinanigans.


----------



## Arnold

greenpearl said:


> How much do you men understand women?
> 
> Sometimes we just yell out something which hurts but we don't mean it. I have done it.
> 
> Sometimes we are just acting childish and spoiled, and we want our men's attention and love. If we get it, we are silent. A hug, a kiss, a touch, fix all the hurt.
> 
> Sometimes we are being unreasonable, you just need to be firm, but don't call us down, don't yell at us, don't scream at us. We scream and yell because we are unreasonable, if you start screaming and yelling, you are not much better than us, that's called self-control, sorry, men, I know I am being unfair to require men to be better in this area, but if you want us women to respect you as men, you have to learn to master this skill.
> 
> When we are bothered by work or family stuff, you don't need to agree that we are right, but you also don't need to be defensive against us, that's just going to stop us from telling you what's bothering us!
> 
> Please always remember than we have periods, and we tend to be very moody before our periods, never pick up a fight during those days, because we are lost and confused and don't know why we feel so low those days. We don't like it either.[/QUOte
> 
> No need for any man to tolerate this type of abuse. Women who act like this are abusers and need to be called on it.


----------



## LFC

BigBadWolf said:


> "Fitness test" is a term mostly I have seen on this site.
> 
> In the rest of the world, the term is mostly "Sh!t test".
> 
> So spend time to google that term if wanted to really get some examples.
> 
> However be understanding, you will mostly in seduction or "gaming" culture websites, and that personally I am not a proponent of casual sex or using women for sex, so that should be clear.
> 
> However, the tests, between dating and marriage they are similar, and to pass them in proper attitude, is exactly the same as the married man even of many many years.
> 
> So it may be of benefit for these questions to see it in action in this example:
> 
> YouTube - ‪Titanic **** Test‬‏


What scene was is that video is now private


----------



## ManningUp

I've read through most of this thread, and I must say, this is some good stuff.

I'm a recovering nice guy trying really hard to change my behaviors. I'm still learning, so bear with me.

That said, I could use some advice. Here's the scenario.

Wife's Birthday was a few weeks back. She decided what she wanted to do, and we did it. Dinner with friend at her favorite place. Nice evening.

My Birthday is coming up shortly. She asked what I wanted to do. I said dinner at my favorite place and watching the football game with friends out at one of our favorite places. She says OK.

A bit later it changes. Her work holiday party is the night before my Birthday, as it usually is. We have a sitter for that night for the kids. She said it'd be tough to find a sitter two night in a row. I say whatever, we'll work it out. Then, I get this. Well, the only weekend available to get a Christmas tree is your birthday weekend. Specifically, on my birthday. So, we need to do that. I say OK, but that means we can't do dinner, because the tree is never a quick and easy affair at our house. Now it's somehow morphed to going with her parent to find a tree and stopping for a drink after. Sheesh, I let this get away.

I now laid this out. We can get a tree, but after that, here's the deal. I'm cooking myself a steak and watching the game. She asked who I wanted to invite over for the game. I said I don't care if anyone comes over for the game. I'm cooking myself a steak and watching the game. Tree up or no tree up, that's what I'm doing. Join me or don't.

That's a long story I guess. But at this point, what's my recourse? The tree is always a good family event for the kids, so I don't mind doing it. Just feeling like she's tried to bully her way through this and not sure how to react here. Thanks for any advice.


----------



## AFEH

I’d say you’re last on your wife’s list of priorities even on your special day. Plus more or less no matter what you do that’s different to her plans you are going to be seen as the bad guy. And in that she’s either consciously or unconsciously set you up.

First off I think I’d ask my wife first off just why it is that you are last on her priorities (including her work). But no matter what the answer (unless of course she capitulates of her own accord and does what you want to do) I’d take off somewhere by myself for the weekend and make sure I thoroughly enjoy myself. For me that’d be fishing, cycling, walking things like that.


----------



## eagleclaw

I agree with the previos poster. I think I would point out that on her birthday you made her and her wishes the priority and made it happen. On your birthday she should have showed you that same consideration. Since she is not, you will compromise for the kids sake and get the tree - following that you will make yourself the priority and this is what you are going to do. You might even calmly note that you are disappointed with her lack of consideration, and suggest you may need to re-evaluate your priority system as well in retrospect.


----------



## BigBadWolf

LFC said:


> What scene was is that video is now private


IT was the scene from the movie Titanic when Rose approached Jack on deck to thank him for stopping her from jumping off the ship the previous night.

The pleasantries quickly evolve into a fiesty sparring full of fitness tests that Jack handles to practicaly textbook fashion, culminating in Rose grabbing his sketch book and becoming enamoured at his drawings.

Although I am not terribly a fan of the movie in general for many reasons, that scene is very useful for fitness test examples and study.

Particularly interesting when one learns that the writer/director James Cameron had no script for that scene, wanting instead for DiCaprio and Winslet to instead improv and ad lib the entire exchange, which they did most excellently.

Very worthwhile popular culture scene for this type of discussion.


Edit: FOund another link to it: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gc6Tk6sRmA&feature=related


----------



## This is me

BigBadWolf said:


> IT was the scene from the movie Titanic when Rose approached Jack on deck to thank him for stopping her from jumping off the ship the previous night.
> 
> The pleasantries quickly evolve into a fiesty sparring full of fitness tests that Jack handles to practicaly textbook fashion, culminating in Rose grabbing his sketch book and becoming enamoured at his drawings.
> 
> Although I am not terribly a fan of the movie in general for many reasons, that scene is very useful for fitness test examples and study.
> 
> Particularly interesting when one learns that the writer/director James Cameron had no script for that scene, wanting instead for DiCaprio and Winslet to instead improv and ad lib the entire exchange, which they did most excellently.
> 
> Very worthwhile popular culture scene for this type of discussion.
> 
> 
> Edit: FOund another link to it:
> a scene from titanic - YouTube


Very understandable example that most of us know. 

Since my WAW left over a month ago, I have had plenty of time to reflect on what went wrong. I can not help but think that I had been tested all along for many months and resorted to the NG default and failed miserably.


----------



## nader

I totally won this text exchange this morning and felt compared to share.

I received a txt this morning: a photo of some stale Kix with the following message:

'U left the bag open. now garbage cuz it's like bubblegum.'

(this is fairly common - griping about things around the house that may or may not be my fault, and usually isn't very important.)

My response:

'It was old anyway. We can get more.'

No response. Then a few minutes later I texted:

Reasons to text or call hubby at work.
1. saying you love him.
2. the baby did something cute.
3. sexting.
4. evening/dinner plans
5. emergencies
6. replying to his text or call

Reasons NOT to text him:
1. 5 month old boxes of stale cereal!!!

Her response:

'lol'

a few minutes later:
'sorry'


----------



## anonim

greenpearl said:


> How much do you men understand women?
> 
> Sometimes we just yell out something which hurts but we don't mean it. I have done it.
> 
> Sometimes we are just acting childish and spoiled, and we want our men's attention and love. If we get it, we are silent. A hug, a kiss, a touch, fix all the hurt.
> 
> Sometimes we are being unreasonable, you just need to be firm, but don't call us down, don't yell at us, don't scream at us. We scream and yell because we are unreasonable, if you start screaming and yelling, you are not much better than us, that's called self-control, sorry, men, I know I am being unfair to require men to be better in this area, but if you want us women to respect you as men, you have to learn to master this skill.
> 
> When we are bothered by work or family stuff, you don't need to agree that we are right, but you also don't need to be defensive against us, that's just going to stop us from telling you what's bothering us!
> 
> Please always remember than we have periods, and we tend to be very moody before our periods, never pick up a fight during those days, because we are lost and confused and don't know why we feel so low those days. We don't like it either.


oh look, its a **** test!


----------



## Conrad

BigBadWolf said:


> I'm not sure engaging in philosophical or social debates is truly "fitness test", so perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying.
> 
> A smart woman is indeed a sexy woman of course, but fitness testing is not about winning or losing a debate.
> 
> Fitness testing springs from a women's subconscious (primal) desire to know and experience how her man can handle a challenge.
> 
> ANd lacking an immediate external challenge (in the primitive past, such as experiencing her man combating a rival suitor or taking down a dangerous or cunning game animal, and in modern times experiencing her man excelling at sports, or career, or social finesse, or musical instrument, or being a leader in some fashion, etc), she simply will create the challenge and become the challenge herself.
> 
> Often men lament this when they don't understand what is really going on, and say their woman "creates drama", or "is a nag" or "is a b!tch" or some other negative partial explanation.
> 
> But regarding fitness test, the best way to "win" a fitness test is simply not to fight.
> 
> Because even if a man is to "win" a debate, he may lose the test, because he got thrown off balance and caught up to begin with, because it is primal, emotional, and NOT about logic or reason.
> 
> Fitness test, do NOT take them literally!
> 
> And that is the point of passing fitness test.
> 
> As a man, when you are confronted with some fitness test, or sh!t test, be 100 percent confident it is appropriate to acknowledge it is a test, such as with a smile, or a wink, or to develop "that look" that communicates that you know exactly what is going on here.
> 
> Or to simply ignore whatever is the sh!t test completely.
> 
> Or to ignore it and say something in return completely off the wall.
> 
> Your woman says something intending to throw you offbalance. You might look at her and comment how sexy her eyes look, or how you are thinking of taking some time off work to do something you enjoy, or how her lips would look really good around your d!ck.
> 
> Anything really, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme what you "say", it is all about your attitude, and inside your woman, your calm confidence, even yes, irrational egotism as long as it is grounded in humor, creates in her an incredible primal admriation and respect, and sexual attractoin, and pride in her man.
> 
> And just as important, sexual (emotional) pride in herself, that she is so much the woman as to have the attraction of this kind of man.
> 
> So see how the man passing fitness tests, and displaying confidence, is nipping in the bud many of the issues rooted in his woman's insecurity, that often is the source of so much emotional and sexual relationship problems.


Wolf,

I've read this one many times in the past several years.

I finally get it.

So does she.

Thank you.


----------



## lovelifeandwanttoenjoyit

Conrad said:


> There's a whole portion of the raging ongoing discussion that intrigues me. And, once I managed to attract the love of my life (it had been a long-term interest), the conflict began in earnest.
> 
> This was 4 plus years ago.
> 
> Just about everything was tried to "fix" things.
> 
> Logic
> 
> Emotional appeals - including pleading
> 
> Behavioral adjustments
> 
> More than a bit of anger
> 
> Yet, no matter what was tried, nothing "really worked". And, when I say nothing "worked", I'm talking about what could/would keep alive the spark in the relationship.
> 
> Periodically, I would hear about her dissatisfaction with our sex life. Of course, those who read and understand here know exactly what was going on. It was one long fitness test.
> 
> Endless compromises... endless deals. Endless negotiations.. endless dissatisfaction with results.
> 
> Most men dread "day 100" of any relationship, as this is when some say the "wheels start to come off". It's now easy to understand what was/is going on.
> 
> Perhaps subconsciously, the tests begin. Are you man enough to maintain my interest? Are you man enough to be a father to the children? Are you man enough to control yourself, hold a job, be faithful, and stand up to others.
> 
> If you are, then prove it by standing up to me!
> 
> If you want to be my warrior, then show me your grace under pressure.
> 
> And, if you fail to control yourself, prepare for further tests, as I bore into your psyche and see what your fiber truly is.
> 
> Becoming a "nice guy" in response to this pressure if the road to hell. Trying to be perfect. Trying not to annoy. Trying everything in your power... stretching yourself to stay out of trouble.
> 
> No one is perfect. You will be tempted to lie and conceal - even to badmouth your wife to others as the pressure rises, as the very essence of your manhood gets swept away.
> 
> And, in the process, your wife will lose interest in this doormat of a man she has in her house.
> 
> This board is littered with the stories of men who have failed these tests. I was definitely one of those.
> 
> What I can tell you - for a fact - is that it is never too late to start passing them. Miles of ground can be made up in a very short time. But, first, you simply must be right with yourself and be able to conquer your fear. Conquer your fear of losing. And, when I mean losing, I mean losing her.
> 
> By conquering your fear of losing her, you will win her.
> 
> And, if she still doesn't respond? What have you lost? You're merely prepared for the future.


going through the moment that I'm going (see my thread if you like) I would have to say your thread is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thank you !!!!


----------



## azteca1986

This is the best thread on the forum; some very, very wise mentors.


----------



## Forever Changed

Very very wise.

Indeed I have l learnt much this afternoon. Very much.

Thank you very much.


----------



## JethroT

MEM11363 said:


> T,
> That isn't quite the point. My W is also blunt. Generally speaking she does not play games. I define a "fitness test" as:
> - W takes an unreasonable position
> - I logically and thoroughly explain why it is not ok
> - She attempts to "brute force" her way through the conversation
> 
> At this point who is "right" has nothing to do with it. Now we purely have a contest of wills.
> 
> I have no idea why she does this. From reading this is a fairly common female behavior. All I know is I have gotten really experienced at working through these without having to break a lot of emotional glass....


My wife was a Captain in the army for 15 years, was a Councillor for almost that long, and seems to have all the answers. She wants me to just go along with everything she says and does....but I do have a mind of my own, and there the conflict begins.


----------



## Bushman1972

Conrad said:


> There's a whole portion of the raging ongoing discussion that intrigues me. And, once I managed to attract the love of my life (it had been a long-term interest), the conflict began in earnest.
> 
> This was 4 plus years ago.
> 
> Just about everything was tried to "fix" things.
> 
> Logic
> 
> Emotional appeals - including pleading
> 
> Behavioral adjustments
> 
> More than a bit of anger
> 
> Yet, no matter what was tried, nothing "really worked". And, when I say nothing "worked", I'm talking about what could/would keep alive the spark in the relationship.
> 
> Periodically, I would hear about her dissatisfaction with our sex life. Of course, those who read and understand here know exactly what was going on. It was one long fitness test.
> 
> Endless compromises... endless deals. Endless negotiations.. endless dissatisfaction with results.
> 
> Most men dread "day 100" of any relationship, as this is when some say the "wheels start to come off". It's now easy to understand what was/is going on.
> 
> Perhaps subconsciously, the tests begin. Are you man enough to maintain my interest? Are you man enough to be a father to the children? Are you man enough to control yourself, hold a job, be faithful, and stand up to others.
> 
> If you are, then prove it by standing up to me!
> 
> If you want to be my warrior, then show me your grace under pressure.
> 
> And, if you fail to control yourself, prepare for further tests, as I bore into your psyche and see what your fiber truly is.
> 
> Becoming a "nice guy" in response to this pressure if the road to hell. Trying to be perfect. Trying not to annoy. Trying everything in your power... stretching yourself to stay out of trouble.
> 
> No one is perfect. You will be tempted to lie and conceal - even to badmouth your wife to others as the pressure rises, as the very essence of your manhood gets swept away.
> 
> And, in the process, your wife will lose interest in this doormat of a man she has in her house.
> 
> This board is littered with the stories of men who have failed these tests. I was definitely one of those.
> 
> What I can tell you - for a fact - is that it is never too late to start passing them. Miles of ground can be made up in a very short time. But, first, you simply must be right with yourself and be able to conquer your fear. Conquer your fear of losing. And, when I mean losing, I mean losing her.
> 
> By conquering your fear of losing her, you will win her.
> 
> And, if she still doesn't respond? What have you lost? You're merely prepared for the future.


This made me weep. I hear you brother. I hope everything works out for you. I can't read this thread any further.


----------



## Conrad

JethroT said:


> My wife was a Captain in the army for 15 years, was a Councillor for almost that long, and seems to have all the answers. She wants me to just go along with everything she says and does....but I do have a mind of my own, and there the conflict begins.


Do you attempt to explain things to her?


----------



## Caribbean Man

JethroT said:


> My wife was a Captain in the army for 15 years, was a Councillor for almost that long, and seems to have all the answers. She wants me to just go along with everything she says and does....but I do have a mind of my own, and there the conflict begins.


A power imbalance / differential exist in the relationship , and she might be thinking that she's actually helping by her approach.
There will always be conflict, but you need to first choose your battles wisely and know how to stand your ground.

Learning her style of communication could help too. Knowing the best time to approach her etc.

If she isn't open to anything then you might have to reconsider whether the relationship can continue like that, and are you prepared to continue accepting it.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Deejo said:


> Now see ... I'll never let that stuff go again.
> "Why'd you need to park so far away?"
> Response: "You need the exercise." or "I'm waiting for you to insist on driving so you can park closer."
> 
> Birthday went off without a hitch.
> I am seriously considering giving TOM my copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy". He did fine, but the dude tries way too hard. Was a funny moment where the ex challenged him about finding something that she couldn't remember where she had put. It was a mini Mexican Standoff. I thought it was hilarious.


Okay, give me the keys. 

Now what?


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Fitness Tests*



2ntnuf said:


> Okay, give me the keys.
> 
> Now what?


I now get to read TAM while she drives...


----------



## 2ntnuf

farsidejunky said:


> I now get to read TAM while she drives...


I only ask because she said something similar. I'm divorced, but trying to fix all the broken stuff. At least, maybe I'll be half a man then. 

Yeah, that's what I did. Then I'd ask to stop and get an ice cream.


----------



## Marduk

For me, there's a fix for too many fitness tests.

Divorce papers.

I don't mind jumping through a few hoops to demonstrate strength. But I have better things to do than to perform endlessly to keep a woman interested.

There are many many other women out there that would be very happy with me for far less effort.


----------



## Ripper

marduk said:


> For me, there's a fix for too many fitness tests.
> 
> Divorce papers.
> 
> I don't mind jumping through a few hoops to demonstrate strength. But I have better things to do than to perform endlessly to keep a woman interested.
> 
> There are many many other women out there that would be very happy with me for far less effort.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

I have seen the "fetch me a drink" example of sh!t tests in multiple locations, but I've never felt degraded or put beneath her for getting her drinks. Particularly if I get a pouty pretty-please or some "enticement" for doing so. Am I doing it wrong??


----------



## Marduk

ET1SSJonota said:


> I have seen the "fetch me a drink" example of sh!t tests in multiple locations, but I've never felt degraded or put beneath her for getting her drinks. Particularly if I get a pouty pretty-please or some "enticement" for doing so. Am I doing it wrong??


A reasonable request asked with a reasonable tone isn't necessarily a fitness test.

Either one not being true makes it a fitness test.


----------



## Deejo

2ntnuf said:


> Okay, give me the keys.
> 
> Now what?


Give the lady exactly what she wants. And make sure you are wearing a smile.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> For me, there's a fix for too many fitness tests.
> 
> Divorce papers.
> 
> I don't mind jumping through a few hoops to demonstrate strength. But I have better things to do than to perform endlessly to keep a woman interested.
> 
> There are many many other women out there that would be very happy with me for far less effort.


Yah I am with this. There is one poster on here, can't remember for sure who, who has to CONSTANTLY check his wife's behavior. That would be exhausting and the very height of unloving.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> Yah I am with this. There is one poster on here, can't remember for sure who, who has to CONSTANTLY check his wife's behavior. That would be exhausting and the very height of unloving.


There have been times in my current marriage where I've been caught in an endless stream of **** tests...

At first I passed each one, only to be presented by a bigger one, then a bigger one...

Until I just got fed up and shrugged my shoulders or patted her on her ass and walked out the door to go do something fun.

Then the **** tests go away for a while. It's hard to argue with someone that isn't there, and it's hard for her to remain in control of the situation when someone is off having fun instead of performing for you. Plus, she eventually realizes she could have a lot more fun by joining me and keeping me happy than sitting there fuming about some made up crap.

On top of that the upside is that you are having fun and get to practice being independent and not impacted by her emotional state.

I am not talking about walking out of the hard conversations or not dealing with real issues. I'm talking about obvious fitness tests like "you didn't load the dishwasher right" or whatever. My wife is the queen of no-win scenarios, and I've learned the best way to play those is not to play at all.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

marduk said:


> For me, there's a fix for too many fitness tests.
> 
> Divorce papers.
> 
> I don't mind jumping through a few hoops to demonstrate strength. But I have better things to do than to perform endlessly to keep a woman interested.
> 
> There are many many other women out there that would be very happy with me for far less effort.


:iagree:

also, do we all agree that when/if the "fitness test" involves another man, the sooner the husband utilizes the word "wh0re" or slvt the sooner he'll pass the test. so do we all agree??


----------



## Marduk

Great post Conrad!

And let that be a lesson to you guys: logic, compromise, emotional appeals, wishing, hoping dreaming...

Doesn't drop women's panties.

So stop doing that, and do what Conrad did.


----------



## Deejo

nuclearnightmare said:


> :iagree:
> 
> also, do we all agree that when/if the "fitness test" involves another man, the sooner the husband utilizes the word "wh0re" or slvt the sooner he'll pass the test. so do we all agree??


Not remotely. If there is another man, fitness tests don't apply.


----------



## Lifescript

Conrad pointed me to this thread a while back. Great stuff! 

I have some questions. Something that is often said is that all women test you. They test to see how dominant you are and because they want proof that they made the right choice in picking you. I believe things change a bit when dealing with women with some kind of personality disorder like BPD. I've dealt with a lot of sh!t testing from my wife throughout the years. Before, I would fail horribly. I didn't even know what the hell was going on to tell you the truth. Way too beta back then. Now I do pretty well. Lots of them I respond with ****y funny stuff and turn something that could become a big stinking drama bomb into nothing. But more times than I like the testing persists. I wonder if it's because she has most of the traits of someone with BPD. See ... I believe she tests hoping I pass and she gets reassurance with my display of dominance. There are times when she reacts great and we've ended up cuddling or being intimate but others she sees it as me being a jerk or an ******* and gives me the "you are not the same guy you used to be!" "you don't love me anymore!" "you don't care!" BS. 

How often do we expect healthy (no mental issues) women to test us? Can we pass these tests and still end up being miserable because the woman doesn't let up (this is kind of what has been happening to me)? 

In my case, I believe the years of beta behavior led to a great deal of loss of respect that although I've become more alpha and no longer a nice guy/doormat she still sees me that way I guess or doesn't believe the new me is authentic. Can the damage done in the early years of a relationship where the men let the woman do whatever she wanted and act inappropriately be too much to overcome even if you become great at passing these tests? I think that's what happened to us. Respect was completely lost. 

I think BPD comes into play here also specifically black/white thinking. Last week she complimented me on the changes I have made and said she was falling in love all over again and this week she said I'm not the same guy I used to be, I'm not even half as understanding and a jerk and that she hates who I am now. 

Some of the tests she's used recently ...

Move back home. If not, no more sex until you do. 

How can I feel love for you? Where are the small/grand gestures of love from you towards me? (She wants me to do all the work to repair the relationship and treat her like a princess). We've dealt with infidelity. 

This post is all over the place. What differentiates a fitness test from someone just being outright abusive with behavior that just shouldn't be tolerated. Where is the line drawn? That's my main question. One thing I've always had in mind when facing the decision to divorce her (we are separated at the moment) is that like you often hear all women test you so it would suck to divorce her to find myself in another relationship with someone who tests just as much. Regardless, the experience is teaching me a lot. In the back of my mind I think is it that I'm not doing this correctly/passing the fitness tests or is it that she's just impossible to deal with and I have to distance myself from her forever. I'm thinking is the latter. 

Thanks in advance for any advice.


----------



## turnera

Script, healthy women don't test you unless they're under stress, feeling vulnerable or unsafe. And they feel bad doing it. It's like when you start yelling at your husband but you know it's wrong and you're hurting him but you can't help it. Healthy women's tests are done to be reassured; as long as you can lovingly, strongly reassure them, it goes away.

And yes, your stbx IS impossible to deal with. You know that.


----------



## Marduk

Lifescript said:


> Some of the tests she's used recently ...
> 
> Move back home. If not, no more sex until you do.
> 
> How can I feel love for you? Where are the small/grand gestures of love from you towards me? (She wants me to do all the work to repair the relationship and treat her like a princess). We've dealt with infidelity.
> 
> This post is all over the place. What differentiates a fitness test from someone just being outright abusive with behavior that just shouldn't be tolerated. Where is the line drawn? That's my main question. One thing I've always had in mind when facing the decision to divorce her (we are separated at the moment) is that like you often hear all women test you so it would suck to divorce her to find myself in another relationship with someone who tests just as much. Regardless, the experience is teaching me a lot. In the back of my mind I think is it that I'm not doing this correctly/passing the fitness tests or is it that she's just impossible to deal with and I have to distance myself from her forever. I'm thinking is the latter.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any advice.


Did she cheat?

If so, I don't think these are fitness tests, they're an attempt to re-assert control over the relationship.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: Fitness Tests*



turnera said:


> Script, healthy women don't test you unless they're under stress, feeling vulnerable or unsafe. And they feel bad doing it. It's like when you start yelling at your husband but you know it's wrong and you're hurting him but you can't help it. Healthy women's tests are done to be reassured; as long as you can lovingly, strongly reassure them, it goes away.
> 
> And yes, your stbx IS impossible to deal with. You know that.


T, 

I guess some feel bad but not all. In many cases this happens subconsciously so how can they feel bad. 

I see your point about the need for reassurance. The more dominance and confidence the man exudes the less tests he will get. 

I'm either not confident/dominant enough yet or I am confident enough but she doesn't see it or believe it yet or she's simply sick (BPD). 

I think is a combination of 2 and 3.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: Fitness Tests*



marduk said:


> Did she cheat?
> 
> If so, I don't think these are fitness tests, they're an attempt to re-assert control over the relationship.


Yes, she did. 

Maybe you are right. How long before they typically understand they won't get control back? 

I read somewhere it takes much more effort to undo the damage (loss of control and respect) than the effort that went in to cause it in the first place.


----------



## Marduk

Lifescript said:


> Yes, she did.
> 
> Maybe you are right. How long before they typically understand they won't get control back?
> 
> I read somewhere it takes much more effort to undo the damage (loss of control and respect) than the effort that went in to cause it in the first place.


Many if not most cheaters are serial cheaters. If so, never.

What is she doing to fix this?

Have you been clear with her what you will tolerate and what you won't?


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: Fitness Tests*



marduk said:


> Many if not most cheaters are serial cheaters. If so, never.
> 
> What is she doing to fix this?
> 
> Have you been clear with her what you will tolerate and what you won't?


She knows. To her credit she had distance herself from toxic people, given me access to accounts, etc. 

I have told her I'm not ok with the constant nagging and drama. But she keeps at it.


----------



## Marduk

Lifescript said:


> She knows. To her credit she had distance herself from toxic people, given me access to accounts, etc.
> 
> I have told her I'm not ok with the constant nagging and drama. But she keeps at it.


"Wife, you have a choice. X and Y behaviour end today, or Z is going to happen."

Be clear about X and Y, and be willing to do Z come hell or high water.

This is how respect happens.


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## turnera

Lifescript said:


> T,
> 
> I guess some feel bad but not all. In many cases this happens subconsciously so how can they feel bad.


Because sh*t tests usually involve acting BADLY, and unless you have mental issues (like your wife), you KNOW when you're acting badly.


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## turnera

marduk said:


> "Wife, you have a choice. X and Y behaviour end today, or Z is going to happen."
> 
> Be clear about X and Y, and be willing to do Z come hell or high water.
> 
> This is how respect happens.


He has tried that. Several times. And each time, she promises to be different and ACTS different...until he resumes normal activity with her and she feels safe to be herself again and start gouging him.


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## Caribbean Man

marduk said:


> *For me, there's a fix for too many fitness tests.
> 
> Divorce papers.*
> 
> I don't mind jumping through a few hoops to demonstrate strength. But I have better things to do than to perform endlessly to keep a woman interested.
> 
> There are many many other women out there that would be very happy with me for far less effort.


I agree.

I feel the exact same way.

And I see some guys here on TAM falling for the same crap.

I'm wondering if guys who subject themselves to that type of abuse suffer from some form of insecurity?

They fear loosing her respect. But she doesn't respect you , that's why she's treating you that way. You can't lose what you don't have!


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## turnera

Script, the day before yesterday, you said you were DONE. You told me, when asking about finishing the divorce, "stay tuned."

And then I find you HERE. Looking for validation that she can stop treating you like sh*t.


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## Lifescript

*Re: Re: Fitness Tests*



turnera said:


> Script, the day before yesterday, you said you were DONE. You told me, when asking about finishing the divorce, "stay tuned."
> 
> And then I find you HERE. Looking for validation that she can stop treating you like sh*t.


LOL Turnera 

I had questions. Wanted to hear the guy's opinion. The advice is helpful in spite of this relationship ending.


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## Lifescript

I'm also not looking for validation. Wanted to hear what the experts on this subject have to say. 

Pretty much what I thought ... A few tests here and there is fine but constant nonstop testing is too much.


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## turnera

Ok, carry on. lol


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## Lifescript

*Re: Re: Fitness Tests*



Caribbean Man said:


> I agree.
> 
> I feel the exact same way.
> 
> And I see some guys here on TAM falling for the same crap.
> 
> I'm wondering if guys who subject themselves to that type of abuse suffer from some form of insecurity?
> 
> They fear loosing her respect. But she doesn't respect you , that's why she's treating you that way. You can't lose what you don't have!


CM, 

In my case I'm a recovering Co - dependent. I have fixer/nice guys tendencies that I'm thankfully getting rid of. 

I think in my case she tests so much because of a combination of some PD, loss of respect, resentment, her need for drama.


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## Caribbean Man

Lifescript said:


> I'm also not looking for validation. Wanted to hear what the experts on this subject have to say.
> 
> Pretty much what I thought ... A few tests here and there is fine but constant nonstop testing is too much.


A few tests are ok , and as Turnera hinted ,a good woman know when she does it and will apologize.

Constant testing is an abusive control tactic used by manipulative women . Sometimes it might involve shaming tactics also.


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## Marduk

turnera said:


> He has tried that. Several times. And each time, she promises to be different and ACTS different...until he resumes normal activity with her and she feels safe to be herself again and start gouging him.


Then Z needs to happen.

This is how people get lulled into a crappy relationship. Spouse makes some halfhearted non-commital attempt that softens your defences, then resumes normal behaviour in a week or two.

The only thing -- and I mean the only thing -- I've found to combat this is to then do Z even if you really, really don't want to.


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## turnera

What is Z?


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## Marduk

turnera said:


> What is Z?


Whatever you want it to be.

When you draw a line in the sand, there must be consequences or the line is pointless and encourages a lack of respect for it, and the person that drew the line to begin with.


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## doubletrouble

I like this thread. Lots of good stuff in here. Wish I'd've read it, oh, years ago.


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