# I really don't think my husband gets it...



## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

After my husband's EA last year, one of the things we worked on in counselling was boundaries. His EA was a series of small steps over the line, a little at a time. He had very poor boundaries.

We discussed this a lot with our counsellor, who was very good. We discussed our boundaries. I was very specific and clear and my husband said he agreed with the boundaries I outlined for himself also.

A lot of the work on trust was hinged on him telling me he understood more about what happened and HOW it happened because of counselling and the talk on boundaries, and that now he knew and understood, he was using his personal boundaries and being more aware not just of what he was and wasn't doing but the perception of how he acted and how that can be interpreted by others.

He's really pushed this home to me. FWIW I do trust him and genuinely believed he was on board with being in check with his behaviour because he was so earnest about it.

Sooooo...

We were talking earlier. He's recently started a new job which he really enjoys. It's quite a close knit, small company he works for and we were talking about it.

He got a bit weird and uncomfortable, then told me he'd given the woman he works with a lift home the other day. Said he was being helpful as she had some heavy stuff she was going to store at work until she could get it home.

Hubz is one of those guys who likes to help people out so he offered her a lift home. He said he didn't think anything of it at the time, but today had been thinking about it and realised that if I inadvertently found out about it, it could look REALLY dodgy, so was telling me.

Now, I do appreciate he shared this. He is good at being open about potential problem areas.

However. We talked about it and it is clear that he doesn't "get it" about boundaries like I thought he did.

As many WSs do in the thick of things, during his EA, he was all about them "being friends." That he was just being friendly. He had NO perception at the time that his behaviour was way inappropriate, and also had never considered employing boundaries. 

He is running with this same train of thought again. He is not thinking how his actions may look BEFORE he carries them out, but after. He genuinely paid no mind to the fact one of the boundaries we have specifically discussed is not being alone with the opposite sex.

He said that counselling was a year ago now, and time has passed and things have faded and changed. He just didn't think about it. As far as he was concerned, he was being helpful. He was upset that I didn't consider the reasons behind his actions and he says he is permanently anxious having to police his actions and interactions with other females to make sure he doesn't do or say anything he shouldn't.

I am really surprised and disappointed at him. He says all the right things but this has shown me that in fact, policing his actions is NOT at the forefront of his mind. He is not in fact thinking about it all the time or remembering something as important as a very pertinent boundary like he says he has been. And he is clearly resentful - it oozes out when he speaks about having to police himself.

I asked him how he would like things to be different. He said he would like it if it had never happened. He speaks a lot about feeling bad but his talk is centred around HIM and how bad he feels about himself. He does not really relate any guilt to how I feel or have felt and when he tells me instances like above.

I feel really distant at the moment. I am worried the rest of our marriage will consist of these blips, of a smaller or larger degree, with him saying how he "didn't think" beforehand or he "didn't mean anything by it." I don't know what to do about the fact he's violated a boundary of mine, which btw he made it clear he thought was over the top anyway.

Any advice on what I do now?


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## WWife (Oct 12, 2012)

I'm very curious to read the responses to this thread because I've very much been in the same situation. In the beginning, right after D-Day, we put a lot of rules in place (such as NC). We had to have the rules because my husband was in the fog and he couldn't really see things correctly to make his own decisions.

As we progressed through counseling, however, our marriage counselor cautioned against me laying out rules. Her basic argument was that my husband had to figure out how to address issues without me telling him or laying out a list. If I just gave him a list, how could he truly learn the underlying issues? And if I always told him what to do, how could I trust him to do what was right on his own? 

I think of it like when I trained as an EMT. They taught us what to do if someone had a cut that was bleeding (apply pressure, raise above the head) but there was one girl who kept asking: what if the cut is on their arm? Their shoulder? Their wrist? Their leg? Their foot? She couldn't take a general principal and apply it -- she needed the very specific rules. Which at the end of the day meant if she was confronted with a novel situation, she didn't have the skill to figure out the best approach. If the behaviour wasn't on the list, she didn't know what to do.

I'm not saying there's not a place for rules -- rules are important *especially* in the aftermath of an EA. But I also think there's a place for principals as well -- when it's not the rules that are the driving force, but the underlying reason for them. When you transition from rules to principals, I have no idea. 

It sounds to me you're in a position where the principal is how to establish and maintain boundaries. I completely understand your anger/concern that your husband broke a rule you'd established and I also think that if he didn't feel the rule was fair he shouldn't have agreed to it. I also think it's good that he told you about it afterward -- it's frustrating he didn't think about it beforehand, but it's good that he's aware of his actions. 

Honestly, my advice would probably to go to counseling. Not that you're in the same place you were before, but I've found it useful when my husband and I "check in" with our counselor every few months. It helps us make sure we're still on track, lets address anything that's come up, and deal with transitioning from the "crisis mode" of post D-day to the "healthy marriage" mode. You and your husband have a differing opinion on which rules are okay going forward and which aren't -- it would probably be useful to have a counselor help y'all through that determination. Also, if he doesn't get it about boundaries, the counseling should help with that.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I will be clear - the "not spending time with the opposite sex alone" thing was stated as a boundary rather than a "rule."

That is, I stated that a boundary of mine was that I could not tolerate him spending time alone with another woman. So rather that it is something for me. Knowing my limits. It just so happened that I went first in outlining boundaries, then he agreed with the ones I stated for himself. The understanding there was that we then both were aware of each other's boundaries and so he has been working with these in mind but also his OWN moral structure if you like, his own ideas of what is and isn't acceptable for him to be doing/saying.

I think the trouble is that he has gone completely strict with himself and mentally given himself no leeway. From what he has said, he is having difficulty when he converses with any woman, which is through work, to know what he can and cannot say or do. It appears he thinks he shouldn't be having any contact with other women, but because he HAS to for work, he is floundering with knowing how to interact.

I will also clarify that I have not nagged or hounded him. Quite the opposite; he was so insistent that he'd learned from the counselling and the discussion of boundaries that I really felt he'd taken it on board and didn't need to worry about it. In retrospect I think this was his self-image talking; he was so disappointed in himself for how he acted that he desperately wanted me to believe he was the guy he was BEFORE this all happened.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Well, things are really weird, last night and this morning.

He is very quiet. I know from what he's said and how he's acting that he is worried I am going to say enough is enough and I can't live like this.

I have been pretty quiet too. We talked a lot yesterday about things and now I'm reflecting. I'm weighing up the situation. there were instances not too long after his EA happened where he completely violated my boundaries with no regard for my feelings. We got past that (IMO I was really lax about enforcing those boundaries but we got through it) but I'm not sure what I want to do now he's violated this boundary. It is a really important one to me because in his EA, the woman engineered a situation whereby they could be alone and they ended up kissing. Then, at no point did he think what was happening was inappropriate until she went in for the kiss.

I am sure he has learned BUT I'm not sure what he has learned. It's not like he didn't know this boundary of mine. I mean, this is a woman he works with, as it was before. You'd think he'd be super alert. But he says all that boundary stuff was discussed last year and it has faded.

I can see he thought about it and in hindsight realised it was not good... But. He needs to be realising this BEFORE! It's been a year and a half now FGS. He's not stupid.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Have you been really, _really_, explicit in telling him that your boundary about this is not something that is "just for now" or "just for a while" but rather will continue to exist for you - and therefore for him, within his marriage to you -_forever_? 

I ask because my husband really seemed a bit startled to discover that "no opposite sex friendships" was something I needed forever, rather just until I "got over" his EA. Some part of him had it in mind that the boundaries I needed were temporary until things got back to normal. He expected that all these "rules" would eventually go away after he'd been good for a while.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

What you're seeing is that there are 2 types of boundary pushers.

There are "one time" boundary pushers, and there are people who are drawn, compulsively, to boundary pushing.

Now some people (like chumplady--and I don't mean to speak for her, so if she reads this, forgive me if I misspeak), believe that really ALL cheaters are compulsive boundary pushers; the "one-timers" just haven't been caught a second time.

I don't believe that. I do agree that SOME one-timers are going to do it again. Obviously. But the rest of the one-timers, the "true" one-timers, do not "seek out" boundary pushing opportunities and they learn their lesson after their affair. What they learn is that even though they thought they were the type of person who would "never" get into an emotional affair, when the cards were down, they would and did. These men (and women) have then chosen to proactively guard their hearts and avoid future dangers leading up to crossing the line.

But other people are not built like that. These people crave, crave, crave attention from sexually attractive people. They lap up validation, affirmation, and compliments like candy. Their biggest issue is they can never get enough. One person cannot fill them up and they are always running on low to empty.

Your situations (WW's as well) could have easily been written by another woman on the forum, vi_bride04. Her husband paid lots of "lip service" to boundaries, but in the end he was drawn to improper emotional intimacy with other women like a moth to a flame. Just like an alcoholic who can love you plenty but loves liquor just a little bit more.

Someone like this, if they've been through marriage counseling and are STILL exhibiting these behaviors--they really need individual counseling. At some point this stuff is simply self-destructive. They are either narcissists (people who believe at their core that they're special and entitled to do this, despite the opinions of others) or else they believe they are unloveable. The "unloveable" ones can hardly believe anyone would love them--in fact they really don't think YOU love them, either. They might even disrespect you for loving them because they are "unloveable".

Does any of that ring a bell? Would you roughly categorize your H's as one or the other (narcissist vs. unloveable)?


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Rowan said:


> Have you been really, _really_, explicit in telling him that your boundary about this is not something that is "just for now" or "just for a while" but rather will continue to exist for you - and therefore for him, within his marriage to you -_forever_?
> 
> I ask because my husband really seemed a bit startled to discover that "no opposite sex friendships" was something I needed forever, rather just until I "got over" his EA. Some part of him had it in mind that the boundaries I needed were temporary until things got back to normal. He expected that all these "rules" would eventually go away after he'd been good for a while.


Good point.

When we had this discussion, it was within counselling. We spent a lot of time on it as he had never really considered what boundaries were or used them really. He was very much of the mind that he knew his intentions with stuff, so that was that. Pretty black and white. Unfortunately he didn't factor in the myriad other factors. Things like, how not being clear to other women who appear to be making the moves on him, that he is taken, and not interested. How the absence of a "no" to flirty behaviour can be taken as a green light in certain situations. How even innocent things (such as him giving a helpful lift home to his work colleague) could be misinterpreted, either by me, or by others who may see him and her alone together. Etc.

I never said the boundaries were until I felt better. I don't know if he has thought this. I don't THINK so. I think it is more that when we talk about stuff like this, it is up there, in our minds as a current issue. When time passes, and other things take up his mindspace, the stuff that is still important gets pushed to the back. To me, it is still important. I am aware all of the time how I conduct myself around the opposite sex. He is obviously AWARE of the issue, but maybe not so much the specific boundaries we discussed back then. I just thought that as it was such an important issue given how things happened in his EA, that he'd have really thought about it and still think about being careful.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Sounds like he's trying to walk on eggshells.

I'm curious why you don't simply give him enough rope to either prove himself or hang himyself.

Rather than focussing on what he remembers or has internalized, just be true to you. That's what a boundary is about. Crossing one of your boundaries means you do something as a result.

Sounds like he interprets your boundary as, 'no interaction with the opposite sex.' based on what you described. Seems like he doesn't want to disappoint you ... or anyone else.

In the scheme of things, sounds like you are correct, he doesn't really get it, or he doesn't want to get it. What are any of his boundaries?


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

iheartlife said:


> What you're seeing is that there are 2 types of boundary pushers.
> 
> There are "one time" boundary pushers, and there are people who are drawn, compulsively, to boundary pushing.
> 
> ...


Yep. Hubz is DEFINITELY the "unloveable" you describe.

His EA was ego-driven. I was always very complimentary (always genuine and heartfelt.) He couldn't believe it sometimes and often got embarrassed or thought I was "just saying that."

He says I built him up and made him feel good about himself. Then this OW came along who was so incredibly brazen and open about how great she thought he was... and he loved it. It was what he'd been getting from me... but from someone else AS WELL. He fed off it.

The puzzling thing is that we'd been together going on four years then and I'd never seen a hint of it before. Yes of course he liked it when women flirted but he never engaged in it to any degree that concerned me.

The thing is - this issue with giving his colleague a lift home. I genuinely think that if I take him at his word, he doesn't find her attractive at all, and thus it makes it less of an issue to him. Thing is, I know he's not going to turn round to me when asked and say, "wow yeah babe, she's smokin' hot!" So I don't know, I've not met her.

But also what hurts is that it appears that he just didn't really think about it. Which was EXACTLY the problem with his EA. He didn't think about what he was doing. I don't even think he thought well, I shouldn't do this, but I'll do it anyway. I think he just thought he'd offer a lift, then AFTERWARDS thought, hang on, this could look bad if tobio finds out about it.

I am fed up. I don't want to be his mother. I am frustrated that a year and a half down the line he appears to have not actually learned despite his protestations that he understood how he got into his EA. He clearly does not grasp it.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

tobio said:


> Yep. Hubz is DEFINITELY the "unloveable" you describe.
> 
> His EA was ego-driven. I was always very complimentary (always genuine and heartfelt.) He couldn't believe it sometimes and often got embarrassed or thought I was "just saying that."


Bingo.

Each time I type up this dichotomy (narcissist vs. unloveable) I keep waiting for someone to say, "my H is neither" but unfortunately that has not happened yet.

Here is the issue: somone like this may actively look down on you because you love them. If they're unloveable, and you love them...then there must be a problem with _you_. Some people go so far as to actively disrespect their spouse for loving them back. It is very twisted logic.

It is interesting that it didn't rise to the surface at the start of the relationship, but no matter. It is there.

The larger issue is that the unloveable believe deep down that eventually you're going to leave them. So they tend to act out self-destructively by engaging in attractive people outside the marriage--to beat you to the punch.

Again--individual counseling to gain some understanding of this very serious problem. You already tried loving them with everything you've got. That is not enough for these folks--they consume that love, swallow it whole, and are still hungry for more.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Sounds like he's trying to walk on eggshells.
> 
> I'm curious why you don't simply give him enough rope to either prove himself or hang himyself.
> 
> ...


To be brief...

We discussed boundaries and we were very specific. There were a handful of relevant ones. I did not at any time say NO interaction with the opposite sex. I was realistic.

Yes, part of it WAS that he didn't want to appear rude, impolite, or upset the OW. He had (has) difficulty being direct for fear of hurting people's feelings. He turns this round onto me by asking what he should say to "excuse" himself out of awkward situations, says he'll have to explain the inner dynamics of our situation to they can understand why he's saying no... Er, just say, I can't, sorry  I don't know why that's so difficult for him or why he makes me feel like it's my fault he can't be flirting and doing the stuff he did before...

His boundaries? I'm a bit confused on this tbh, last week I would have reeled off a few but today I'm not entirely sure. I know one is no physical contact with the opposite sex beyond necessities like a handshake at work. So no hugging, kissing or more. Even this, after having made it clear I wouldn't be happy as it is my boundary too, he still did with a friend he has a history with and who constantly flirts whenever we see her. He blew up about that and made resentful remarks. The gist is that he wants to be able to do what he wants without having to consider my boundaries that cramp his style, or bring up the possibility that he may have to explain WHY he doesn't do or say whatever, to another person.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

I think my spouse also belongs in the "Unlovable" section. Of course he has a host of other issues (net addiction, neglectful parents). 

During our most recent counseling sessions our MC probed him on "what story was told that hooked you into the EA"....he responded that he felt great empathy for her in her situation. She is a college girl who lives in Iran and she shared that she was anti-muslim and how she had to shave her head due to almost being raped and the general repression of women in that country. MY spouse played the white knight and their big _plan_ was for her to escape Iran and somehow finish a PHD degree in the US....... He was caught in the exotic stories, the excitement and the whole saving "story". 

Our MC says there is always a *hook* that gets you starting down that slippery slope. Boundaries get crossed and in some cases it starts so gradually that the people involved ignore the danger. 

The _unlovable_ category scares me the most because it sounds like years of therapy......no telling what is going to be uncovered.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

You may find vi_bride04's last major thread instructive--her H just NEVER got it, unfortunately. Even when he saw that she was going to leave him over his perpetual "want" (not _need_) to go out to lunches with a woman at work and discuss his marital problems, give her rides, etc. etc. He lied about it to the ends of the earth because he knew vi didn't like it, but he didn't fundamentally think it was wrong.

No doubt that this attitude is a tragedy. It isn't as if most other women are going to tolerate this behavior if he were to get together with someone else. It is extremely _immature_, and it gives off this sense of arrested development, which means that it usually can be traced back to their childhood.

The trouble is, people who are broken this way have to WANT to fix the problem. As their partner, you have to step back and acknowledge that you cannot control them, you cannot fix them. It is both beyond your expertise and power. It is within the expertise of a good individual counselor, but it is also beyond their power as well.

Like many a compulsion / addiction, the person who struggles with this may have to reach a "rock bottom" before they truly understand that it's an either / or proposition. If you want to stay married, you reserve your loyalty and emotional intimacy 100% for your spouse. If you don't, then feel free to liberally distribute it to others at will.


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## WWife (Oct 12, 2012)

One of the books I read was Intimacy and Desire by Dr. Schnarch. In it he talks about the healthy sense of self and how a lot of people instead have a reflected sense of self -- they look to others to reflect back what they want to see. So you telling your husband how great he was made him feel good: he couldn't see it for himself and needed to instead see it reflected from you.

The issue is that this is unsustainable. You could keep telling him he's great until the end of time but eventually it will stop working. He'll beging to resent you for not giving him what he needs (i.e. reflecting back awesomeness) and you'll resent him for needing you to do it. 

So when he finds another woman who can reflect back on him what he wants (how awesome he is), he'll take it. That's a simplification of what Dr. Schnarch talks about, but it makes a lot of sense to me. This was a lot of what happened in my case: I thought my husband was great, told him all the time, and after a while it wasn't enough. He stopped believing me and so when the OW showed up and was reflecting back how awesome he was, he turned to her. He's also a rescuer and he liked the ego-boost he got from having her see him as a hero.

The solution for my husband is that he's had to boost his own self esteem and stop looking to others to reflect back who he is. That way, he's not as vulnerable to some woman down the road telling him how great he is -- he doesn't need the ego boost anymore.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

WWife, I completely agree with what you've just said.

I just want to point out, that there isn't anything wrong with telling your partner they're terrific, when the compliments and praise are valid. That is an important component to a loving marriage, sharing 'words of affirmation' in the lingo of the book, The 5 Love Languages.

But with a person who is a validation-seeker, the point is, as you say, that it's NEVER ENOUGH. They are yawning maws of blackholes inside, if you could take a peek in there. The compliments go in but they pass through and are never absorbed.

Frequently this goes back to childhood, and how they were raised. Again, it's a serious issue to address, and not for amateurs. What is scary is that even experts may not be able to help them overcome it.

I want to also point out that it's not unusual for people with "issues" to marry someone who is a "rescuer." So if you are a spouse married to a validation-seeker, I strongly recommend that YOU get individual counseling for yourself. You need to also look inside and see, why do I put so much effort into validating someone and trying to fix them when clearly they can only do that for themselves? It's one thing to know they can only fix themselves. It's another thing to stop TRYING to fix them. Some people need expert advice to reach that point.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I find that term 'unlovable' fascinating. If you could provide more details, I'd like to read about it.

I think overall, that concept that you make quite clear is what I was trying to convey in this thread I created a long time ago:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/20584-destructive-fitness-tests.html

And tobio, you believe your husband falls into this category? So basically he looks for validation (why he seeks approval from other women) but your validation doesn't mean much because there is something obviously wrong with you ... because you love him?

I may be over-reaching, but wow, iheartlife's really struck me.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

***Frequently this goes back to childhood, and how they were raised. Again, it's a serious issue to address, and not for amateurs. What is scary is that even experts may not be able to help them overcome it.

I want to also point out that it's not unusual for people with "issues" to marry someone who is a "rescuer." So if you are a spouse married to a validation-seeker, I strongly recommend that YOU get individual counseling for yourself. You need to also look inside and see, why do I put so much effort into validating someone and trying to fix them when clearly they can only do that for themselves? It's one thing to know they can only fix themselves. It's another thing to stop TRYING to fix them. Some people need expert advice to reach that point. ******


<----the above is exactly what I talked about last week in our session. In a less eloquent way said this to our MC and said that working on marriage issues is all well and good but there is this huge issue here that really needs to be focused on and the marital stuff is just the fluff now. 

In a nutshell, I'm prefect so fix him !!!  

I was starting to get into that mindset of "fixing" him and propping him up because he said that was _one_ of the things that felt good in his EA. Flattery. But as we have gone through our sessions and our childhood issues have come out.... well it's overwhelming the amount of neglect this man was raised with. One of oddest being he wasn't allowed to call his mother "mom" he had to address her by her first name. 

anyhow.... basically the focus is now between the MC and him in working on those personal issues, while the marriage issues take a bit of a back seat but it will all get looped back together at some point. Meanwhile I keep working on being *perfect*  

****Iheartlife, *****<--- thanks for that post, you really have a knack for explaining things in such a relateable way. Anyone who uses "yawning maws of black holes.....well that's top shelf imagery right there.".....


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I find that term 'unlovable' fascinating. If you could provide more details, I'd like to read about it.


I wish I could give you literature, but I haven't found that yet. Primarily because it is not an issue I have in my life (this was _not_ my husband's problem, despite his long emotional affair). If I do see something, I will be sure to share it.

I've talked about it in a few other threads, because it's a recurring theme around here (unfortunately). I first made note of this "category" of disloyal spouse while listening to a talk radio show. A husband was calling in, asking the therapist why it was that he was drawn to superficial flirtations via facebook. He knew it was wrong, he knew it was hurtful, but he still couldn't stop. The therapist is the type who hits people with ten tons of bricks, but with this man they rather gently pulled out how he felt he didn't deserve his wife. That she was wonderful in every way. But basically, he didn't like himself very much. He was very puzzled why she stayed with him, when he did so many silly things. And the more they talked, the more I realized that this was far and away the most logical explanation for this kind of behavior.

Of course it's selfish, and people making these choices are being very selfish. But unlike the narcissist, who believes that they are fabulous, and of course everyone likes them, and they're too terrific not to share with the world, these people seem very unhappy. I was struck by the perfect understanding of it being wrong and yet the compulsive need to engage in this very immature, childish behavior.

I also noted that there was some underlying hostility for the spouse. I found that paradox interesting. They are saying their spouse is perfect, but they also resent them at the same time. What was up with that? And at least for me, the explanation that fits the best is that when you don't believe you deserve to be loved, then you are always going to question someone extending love to you. That despite their "perfection," they do have a flaw, and this is it.

Mentally healthy people can sort of see how this thinking works, but really, it's very alien. That's because when you were a child, whether through your parents or some other loving adult figure, somehow you learned that you are worthy of love and respect.

I've also said this before--loving yourself and having high self-esteem are not the same. Narcissists have the highest self-esteem of anyone, and that translates into always putting themselves first. But is that true self-love? I would argue not. True self-love involves understanding that you aren't #1--while you are entitled to "self-actualize," you cannot do that at the harmful expense of other human beings. True self-love includes _self-control_, to avoid hurting others while still asserting yourself. Damaged people have a very hard time getting that right.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> ****Iheartlife, *****<--- thanks for that post, you really have a knack for explaining things in such a relateable way. Anyone who uses "yawning maws of black holes.....well that's top shelf imagery right there.".....


You are kind to say that, but when I say they are blackholes, I mean it _literally_.



> A black hole is a region of spacetime where gravity prevents anything, including light, from escaping


When you picture a validation-seeking person, imagine someone who sucks in compliments, affirmation, and attention as if they were starving. You quickly see why one person is never enough.

What's sad is if you think about how much energy they divert toward this hopeless task. Like starving people who are wasting away, but they have a parasite inside that eats all the nutrients, leaving none for the host.

It might not be fair to describe these people that way, but it's highly useful for co-dependent "fixer" types of spouses to see them that way. Because those spouses need to "get" that giving more validation is a hopeless task. Fixer types are always beating themselves up, because they're sure that if they just tried a little harder, they would achieve success. They want to overcome the hurdles of what's typically childhood abuse. For someone who has no training, and who is emotionally invested in this crippled person, that is not a wise use of your time and energy.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Amen Iheartlife. That's my struggle and realizing that fact has resulted in less exhaustion. Trying to balance how to be supportive as he goes through this therapy and yet have a line drawn...supportive, not fixer. Remembering to focus on ourselves (BS) as opposed to be so obsessed over what goes on in their minds.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I have found out the following from hubz just now...

* Boundaries only really apply if either you or the other person has romantic feelings. Otherwise it doesn't matter so much what you say or do.

* If I express a boundary, hubz has to pick it to pieces. He will concoct a million different variations upon a scenario then pull apart my answers bit by bit.

* Hubz needs me to tell him what to do with my boundaries. He genuinely needs an answer for each situation because he doesn't know what to say or do.

He is being a real pr!ck about this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Forsaking ALL OTHERS for as long as you both shall live just doesn't cut, eh?

Addicts always have a ready excuse.

What did the MC have to say about this sort of stuff in counseling?

I assume you've read Not Just Friends; has he?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

The counsellor was quite set on the theory that we're not perfect, everybody makes mistakes. The feeling was that he made a mistake. Because it was pretty mild in what happened and he confessed to me after they kissed.

He has always been quite nonchalant about the OW in hindsight. So the counsellor saw it as poor boundaries, that he found himself in a position he never planned for but allowed.

I am realising looking back, all the instances during and after that he displayed this attitude of casualness towards my requests. In particular when the OW started to heavily pursue him and he chose to ignore it rather than ber direct and cut her off. He repeatedly downplayed my requests to change his number. All along there is an air of "he knows best."

I'm really down about this. I feel very insignificant. Like what I want isn't that important to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Deejo said:


> I find that term 'unlovable' fascinating. If you could provide more details, I'd like to read about it.
> 
> I think overall, that concept that you make quite clear is what I was trying to convey in this thread I created a long time ago:
> 
> ...


Deejo, I was just rereading through this thread, and what you said reminded me of something my hubz said during the midst of his EA.

We were talking and I had decided I wanted to work through things. He was on the fence, looking out. I asked him what he'd do in my position if he were me (more theoretical rather than it having any bearing on my decision). He said, if he were me he'd have dumped me... I remember thinking at that point he did not have respect for me for wanting to reconcile things. Fits with what has been said doesn't it?

We're in a kind of stalemate atm. We had arranged to talk about things last night, my suggestion being he attend IC. In a pause in the conversation, he told me before I'd come downstairs to talk to him, he'd had some news that his grandad was very ill in hospital. He was quite quiet about it but wanted me to carry on talking so we could come to a conclusion. I felt bad for him and a little weird that he wanted me to carry on talking but I understood he just wanted to clear things up so he could mentally tick it off, one less thing to worry about. I didn't want to say much though because I could see he wasn't with it.

Though the gist of what was said was...

He is worried I am going to leave.

He is not keen on going to counselling again (I get the idea he is very resentful because to him the idea of IC implies the problem lies with him, that he is at fault.)

He is REALLY iffy with my boundaries. This is for two reasons: 

First, he feels it is his job to "interpret" my boundaries as he sees fit. So for example, even though being alone in a car with his work colleague IS being alone with another woman, he can apply a handful of reasons WHY that scenario shouldn't be a problem, such as it was only a five minute journey/ he doesn't fancy her/ she hasn't shown that she fancies him/ he's been at work with her all day so why does it make a difference that he gives her a lift home. We HAVE spoken about exceptions to this such as in necessary work situations (ie him and this woman share a workshop so it is inevitable they will be there together.)

Second, he is asking for direction from me on a number of variations upon a theme. I mean, he came up with loads of scenarios that involve a possible breach of my boundaries and is asking me what I want him to do. Reading between the lines, he is bringing up situations where he may have to explain to people why he doesn't or can't do xyz: basically that because of my boundaries, I am going to "make" him look like a social freak.

Example: a while ago I mentioned a flirty female friend who is quite lavish with her hugs and kisses. Him and her have a brief history and it is inappropriate to me for them to be hugging and kissing. At the time he went mad about it, said it's just her way and how is he supposed to suddenly stop reciprocating her hugs etc?

He saw her again a while later in company. Told me when they were leaving where they were, he said goodbyes and he could see she was going to go in and hug him, so he just turned round and walked off. The implication here is that because of my boundary, I "made" him look rude.

Anyways I suppose we're at a point of me not knowing what I want to do with this.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

"The gist is that he wants to be able to do what he wants without having to consider my boundaries that cramp his style, or bring up the possibility that he may have to explain WHY he doesn't do or say whatever, to another person."

When I read this my heart just sank for you.
You have a husband who doesn't want a wife that cramps his style? And who is more concerned with what he perceives as his reputation with others than his marriage. Sounds like you should go back to counseling. I am sorry.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Pluto2 said:


> "The gist is that he wants to be able to do what he wants without having to consider my boundaries that cramp his style, or bring up the possibility that he may have to explain WHY he doesn't do or say whatever, to another person."
> 
> When I read this my heart just sank for you.
> You have a husband who doesn't want a wife that cramps his style? And who is more concerned with what he perceives as his reputation with others than his marriage. Sounds like you should go back to counseling. I am sorry.


Don't get me wrong, he hasn't said those EXACT words. But he has pretty much gotten close.

My boundaries get in his way. Unfortunately despite his protestations that he cares very deeply about me and regrets what he did, and that he wants to prove is IS that guy that he used to be before all this happened... When it comes to working with my boundaries on a day-to-day basis, he sees it as a real hassle. An inconvenience. He worries people will ask WHY he won't do such-and-such, that they will think he is weird or being rude. Particularly around women, he is worried about hurting their feelings. 

A story from his EA... The OW offered him her phone number. He took it... Because he didn't want to appear rude. Honest to god. He was more concerned about not hurting her feelings than hurting me. If it wasn't so serious it'd be hilarious. The thought never crossed his mind to say, sorry, I'm taken and I'm very happy with that situation.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I would get the book Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud and Townsend for the two of you to work through. For one thing, he has boundaries too. You just aren't testing them. He needs to start to understand how this is a two-way street. He would not be okay with you having these types of relationships with other men--except as a cover to justify his activities.

If you don't think he'll go to IC--then go back to marriage counseling. You are now armed with a lot more than you were before. Before, you just had a much more vague issue of his doing something that, if it were just a one-time thing, might not be so bad. But now you have established that this is a pattern. Now you understand that this is a personality defect, not a 'no human is perfect' issue. He is now choosing these things on purpose, it is no longer any mistake.

Furthermore, a marriage counselor will be able (like the book Boundaries in Marriage) to illustrate what are healthy marital boundaries. What would MOST people find to be important lines to draw to protect the marriage. He needs to hear from a third party that he's rather unique in his views and most people would not tolerate his selfishness because it is much too hurtful.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Have you asked him why he is more concerned about hurting the feelings of other women than he is about hurting you?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Pluto2 said:


> Have you asked him why he is more concerned about hurting the feelings of other women than he is about hurting you?


I won't speak for tobio, but I feel comfortable answering the question from my perspective;

Because hurting the feelings of other women means he risks whether or not they approve of him, and he wants approval. 

Whereas he feels like he is in a 'no win' situation with his wife. He already knows that she doesn't approve of him (from his perspective) ... so he looks for it elsewhere.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

tobio said:


> Don't get me wrong, he hasn't said those EXACT words. But he has pretty much gotten close.
> 
> My boundaries get in his way. Unfortunately despite his protestations that he cares very deeply about me and regrets what he did, and that he wants to prove is IS that guy that he used to be before all this happened... When it comes to working with my boundaries on a day-to-day basis, he sees it as a real hassle. An inconvenience. He worries people will ask WHY he won't do such-and-such, that they will think he is weird or being rude. Particularly around women, he is worried about hurting their feelings.
> 
> *A story from his EA... The OW offered him her phone number. He took it... Because he didn't want to appear rude. Honest to god. He was more concerned about not hurting her feelings than hurting me. If it wasn't so serious it'd be hilarious. The thought never crossed his mind to say, sorry, I'm taken and I'm very happy with that situation*.


My exhusband used this excuse as well when dealing with women who were rude and dismissive towards me.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Deejo said:


> I won't speak for tobio, but I feel comfortable answering the question from my perspective;
> 
> Because hurting the feelings of other women means he risks whether or not they approve of him, and he wants approval.
> 
> Whereas he feels like he is in a 'no win' situation with his wife. He already knows that she doesn't approve of him (from his perspective) ... so he looks for it elsewhere.


I'd guess there is an element of that, for sure.

Also having my boundaries as are reminds him he messed up. He doesn't want to "be" that person. He is nearly entirely convinced he isn't - and the policing of his behaviour is a very direct reminder that he
WAS that guy. So like Deejo says, he feels flawed in my eyes. And he is, I think, resentful of ME because of thT. But to other women, he isn't flawed and he can be that good guy. Plus he does not want to risk revealing the "true" him by having to explain his awkward behaviour. It is easier for his pride to go along with things at the time and let me down because I guess to him, he's let me down already.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Deejo said:


> I won't speak for tobio, but I feel comfortable answering the question from my perspective;
> 
> Because hurting the feelings of other women means he risks whether or not they approve of him, and he wants approval.
> 
> *Whereas he feels like he is in a 'no win' situation with his wife. He already knows that she doesn't approve of him (from his perspective) ... so he looks for it elsewhere*.



Or the other possibility is that he may feel that since she is his wife, he doesn't need to work as hard to keep her happy.

This attitude can happen in all types of relationships. My mother was like that as well with me. I remember once we were visiting relatives and my big fat 6 kids with different fathers out of wedlock cousin asked my mother for my phone number as I was going to university in a town near her. My cousin later told me that my mother gave it to her.

I asked my mother did she expect me to go out with her since both my parents would put a lot of pressure on us to stay in touch with our relatives despite their behavior towards us. I was really wondering how obligated she expected me to be to her if she should call.

My mother changed the subject. A year later when my mother met my boyfriend and he made a joke out of perhaps meeting my welfare mom cousin, my mother immediately said, you don't want to get tied up with her.....despite the fact my mother made it easy for my cousin to contact me. 

I really think it is a read flag for a partner to use this excuse instead of doing what's right for his partner and the relationship.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Your situation reminds me _so_ much of vi_bride04's. Unfortunately.

I'm not saying he's doomed to repeat the mistakes that vi_bride04's stbxh did. But he's showing some of the signs.

A lot of what I posted earlier was assuming you worked through the boundaries issue during prior marriage counseling. Instead, it sounds like it was not really dealt with at all. Again, as I said, you now have lots of evidence about his methods and his attitude and his trying to make this _your_ problem as if you're being unreasonable.

At some point--it really is WHO HE IS. He doesn't really want to change, maybe not even for you. He may never see any of this as wrong or harmful. But marriage counseling, one more time with a really terrific counselor, may be your best shot.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

You know - we really did a lot of work on boundaries. You wouldn't think it from all this, but we did.

I'd actually read a lot on here and was keen to use it. The counsellor talked about having boundaries, what they are and how we use them. The work WAS done.

I always had a feeling he never really understood HOW an EA can happen. The small steps we talk about on here, those very gradual line crossings, this was discussed but I never got a real sense that he truly understood the "how". 

I can discuss it now without being as emotional but the trouble is it is just rehashing EVERYTHING we already e er discussed and worked on. A year and a half out and it feels like practically, he hasn't learned much. I genuinely don't think he comprehends the effects of what he did - he was going to use it as an "out" and leave me witb our baby who was only five months old. I spent every day for months believing he was going to come home and finish things and have a relationship with her because he'd never tell her to just p!ss off. I was mot made to feel prioritised or cherished - then all of a sudden when I threw him out for breaking NC, THEN he was able to tell me he'd been a fool and how much I meant to him. I haven't really heard that since. He never says he appreciates what I have had to deal with, or how difficult it must be to look at him sometimes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

tobio said:


> You know - we really did a lot of work on boundaries. You wouldn't think it from all this, but we did.
> 
> I'd actually read a lot on here and was keen to use it. The counsellor talked about having boundaries, what they are and how we use them. The work WAS done.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry.

Do you think he has a problem with empathy in general?

It sounds like it with the baby.

That he cannot put himself in other people's shoes. His inappropriate behavior simply being a symptom of that. Not just where cheating is concerned.

He comes off as self-centered. That he came back when you made life tough for him, but he thinks about himself to such a degree that he has already forgotten how unpleasant that was.

vi_bride04 faced very much the same issues. PM her--I know she'd have a lot to say.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

iheartlife said:


> I'm sorry.
> 
> Do you think he has a problem with empathy in general?
> 
> ...


Funny, I have actually said the same thing to him before about his appearing to lack empathy. He says not so.

I feel at times that he doesn't take me seriously. A lot actually. I do feel a lot when we talk about relationship issues that he is saying all the things I want to hear then, when I'm emotional, and I believe he means it. I think he does you know. I think he believes at the time he will do whatever it is I need.

When it comes to the long haul however, and it takes time out of his life... Well that is when the gap between his words and actions shows. For whatever reasons, he can't or won't put the time in.

I have been having a massive realisation recently of just how short-changed I feel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> You may find vi_bride04's last major thread instructive--her H just NEVER got it, unfortunately. Even when he saw that she was going to leave him over his perpetual "want" (not _need_) to go out to lunches with a woman at work and discuss his marital problems, give her rides, etc. etc. He lied about it to the ends of the earth because he knew vi didn't like it, but he didn't fundamentally think it was wrong.
> 
> No doubt that this attitude is a tragedy. It isn't as if most other women are going to tolerate this behavior if he were to get together with someone else. It is extremely _immature_, and it gives off this sense of arrested development, which means that it usually can be traced back to their childhood.
> 
> ...


....nothing sadder than a man with low self esteem who wants to be a white knight to every damsel in distress he encounters.....ask my wife....she recently pointed out that I continue to do this, even after I ended my very inappropriate friendship......it is a tough place to be, I know since I am there.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

oneMOreguy said:


> ....nothing sadder than a man with low self esteem who wants to be a white knight to every damsel in distress he encounters.....ask my wife....she recently pointed out that I continue to do this, even after I ended my very inappropriate friendship......it is a tough place to be, I know since I am there.


Hubz is a bit like this. He likes to come to people's aid. He likes to be the good guy.

If you saw us two, you would definitely describe me as "nice." The irony is that recently I have worked on being more direct and less worried about being "responsible" for people's feelings. As a result I tend to not worry so much what people think of me. Hubz gives the impression when he talks ofnot caring what others think but in action he is actually very concerned about how he comes across.

I find it easy to conduct myself in a manner that is respectful of him... I find it really hard to understand how it is so difficult for him to show the same consideration.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Thinking a lot. Weighing up possibilities.

Feel stuck as I know there's not much *I* can do now. I had a realisation earlier that a huge part of our reconciling was based on the premise that I should simply take his word that nothong would ever happem again. Like his word was all I should need.

I guess I wait and see what he does now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

tobio said:


> Hubz is a bit like this. He likes to come to people's aid. He likes to be the good guy.
> 
> If you saw us two, you would definitely describe me as "nice." *The irony is that recently I have worked on being more direct and less worried about being "responsible" for people's feelings.* As a result I tend to not worry so much what people think of me. Hubz gives the impression when he talks ofnot caring what others think but in action he is actually very concerned about how he comes across.
> 
> ...



I think the way you do. And I also think that is what confident looks like. So it's ironic that your husband wants to behave in a grovelling manner. That's when others are most likely to take advantage of you.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

NextTimeAround said:


> I think the way you do. And I also think that is what confident looks like. So it's ironic that your husband wants to behave in a grovelling manner. That's when others are most likely to take advantage of you.


It's mad. In everyday life he's assertive. He doesn't give a flying fvck what people think of him. He'll tell me stories about run ins or confrontations and I admire him standing his ground and saying what he thinks.

But when some woman asks for a hand or wants him to do something... He can't stand up for me and boundaries... He'll protect his own but not mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

tobio said:


> It's mad. In everyday life he's assertive. He doesn't give a flying fvck what people think of him. He'll tell me stories about run ins or confrontations and I admire him standing his ground and saying what he thinks.
> 
> But when some woman asks for a hand or wants him to do something... He can't stand up for me and boundaries... He'll protect his own but not mine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dear tobio,

Let give you a different perspective on your problem.

You and many of the other responders speak of your H's failure as being one of not knowing where are the "boundaries." Frankly, I've never liked the term because it seems to me to objectify something that is really subjective -- i.e., it implies that as long as we *act* appropriately then all is well when, in fact, what really matters are our *intentions* (as in the old saying, "it's the thought that counts"). Everybody makes mistakes but if their hearts are in the right place, we forgive them. On the other hand, we hold in particular contempt those who behave appropriately but have ill intent (a la Eddie Haskell).

You have every right to be upset with your H's behavior but I would suggest not because he has crossed some "boundary" that you or the MC has established for him but because his behavior indicates that he does not understand (or worse, doesn't care about) your feelings. Given that he had an EA, he should be aware that everything he does henceforth will be examined by you to determine if he has really reformed (or is at least trying to). If he were to think about his actions in this light, it should be a lot easier for him to know what is and isn't appropriate -- "this will not at all concern my W so I may do it" or "my W will not like this so I better not do it."

If you present the issue to him in this manner, he can't complain about having to follow a lot of "boundary" rules because the rule is simple: don't do it if you think it might upset your W. Also, there is nothing for him to pick to pieces or any need for you to tell him what to do.

Now, if he isn't willing to follow this rather simple principle, then I think you need to reconsider whether he is serious about overcoming his shortcomings and reconciling with you. And if he claims that he doesn't know what will make you feel bad then he is either (a) being disingenuous or (b) an emotional idiot and, again, you need to reconsider your relationship.

I suggest you tell him straight out that, from now on, you expect him to act in a manner that does not upset you and that the burden is on him to figure out how to go about this. Also tell him that his willingness and ability to do so will "determine the future or your marital relationship." I use such a vague expression intentionally because I think it best not to mention divorce at this point, so that he does not feel overly threatened and so that you remain free to reevaluate his behavior from time to time and determine, when the time comes, whether you wish to continue to be married to him.

As to how he treats other women, you need to make it clear to him that if what he is inclined to do is going to make you uncomfortable, he better not do it. And if that means he may come off as rude sometimes, he needs to accept that as a cost of his past bad behavior and a down payment on a solid marriage with you in the future.

One final thought: I'm inclined to think that you've been a bit too "understanding" with him and that letting him know that he is skating on thin ice is a message he needs to hear.

I hope you find this helpful and wish for you a happy outcome.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

carmen ohio said:


> Dear tobio,
> 
> Let give you a different perspective on your problem.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice.

I agree in principle. In reality... No. It ain't gonna work.

The boundaries are there BECAUSE he doesn't know where the line stands. I'm not saying he's completely stupid (though it has crossed my mind!) but that people have different tolerances.

My tolerance (because of his EA I should add) means the line is drawn a lot closer than, say, his, for example. There are things he would be okay with ME doing that I wouldn't be okay with HIM doing - an example is the giving an opposite sex person a lift home. I used to be VERY trusting and wouldn't be bothered about that. Now, I am.

The idea is that the boundaries are there, and specific, so he knows what is not acceptable to me. Part of this problem IS that he is applying his own values to MY boundaries... So if left entirely to him, he thinks being alone with another woman is okay because he has no bad intentions. But the point is that during his EA, he was alone with another woman... And he didn't intend to smoochy up and kiss her. She engineered that situation for it to happen like that. He was completely naive.

Do you see?

He was arguing that his intentions when giving this work colleague a lift home were pure. I do actually accept that. But what he fails to grasp is that ultimately, EAs do not happen in a vacuum. Proximity. MAJOR factor. Small steps. If he avoids the small steps, those building blocks that can lead to an EA, then he won't be finding himself in any situations like he did before. This is what he doesn't understand.

And yes - I HAVE been too understanding. I am way too nice.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I learned as well that my intentions don't matter. What it looks like to the other person is what matters. For example, many women would like to think that it's ok to go to a guy's place at the end of the date even though they have no intentions of having sex with them. 

I think if any of us knew a woman who complained about how guys always paw over her for sex, we would wonder why she continues to do things / behave in ways that can be misinterpreted.

Tobio's husband should have learned by now that many choices one makes can be misinterpreted and that they may not be able to control the outcome.

For an adult to refuse to accept that, I think is very dangerous.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

NextTimeAround said:


> I learned as well that my intentions don't matter. What it looks like to the other person is what matters. For example, many women would like to think that it's ok to go to a guy's place at the end of the date even though they have no intentions of having sex with them.
> 
> I think if any of us knew a woman who complained about how guys always paw over her for sex, we would wonder why she continues to do things / behave in ways that can be misinterpreted.
> 
> ...


Yep.

I think hubz is feeling short-changed because I appear to him to pay no heed to the fact he is adamant that "it won't happen again", or "I'm not going to do anything" or that I should "trust him."

The fact is, I DO trust he means ALL of that. I really, really do. But the fact is I trusted in him and his intentions before. It wasn't his intentions that got him into that EA mess. It was thoughtlessness, when it comes down to it.

I realise I'm harping on BUT... He truly doesn't understand the shades of grey. He still sees it as intentions that count - the complete irony seeing as he never intended to get himself into anything! I see it as prevention, if you like. He's not seeing that. He thinks it's okay to pretty much do what you think reasonable so long as you don't have bad intentions.

If he hasn't understood it by now then only a 2x4 to the head or another session of counselling is going to do it


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Just a thought: Do you think it would have been more boundary conscious of your husband to have told you ahead of time that he was planning to drive the coworker home? In your place, I think I'd prefer that type of scenario rather than finding out about it after the fact. He could have even place a quick phone call to you right in front of the coworker...'Hi Tobio, I'll be a few extra minutes tonight as I'm dropping so and so off at home first.". Accountability. Maturity. 

Not that I think he really did anything all that wrong, but just thinking about it if it were me.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Just a thought: Do you think it would have been more boundary conscious of your husband to have told you ahead of time that he was planning to drive the coworker home? In your place, I think I'd prefer that type of scenario rather than finding out about it after the fact. He could have even place a quick phone call to you right in front of the coworker...'Hi Tobio, I'll be a few extra minutes tonight as I'm dropping so and so off at home first.". Accountability. Maturity.
> 
> *Not that I think he really did anything all that wrong, but just thinking about it if it were me.*


Part of me thinks that as well, but then I think about others 

for example, I had two male coworkers. I realised that the three of us could go in one go to department lunches in another location. But since I had a two seater, not one of them would have been caught in the car with me....even, quite literally, in the middle of the day.

Also, I had some damage to my car. My insurance company required me to get several quotes. I lived and worked in a place where there was no public transportation and taxi fare averaged USD50. Sometimes, the personnel at the garage would give me a ride to work. But I did start to wonder, as a single woman, what were people thinking when they see me get a out of a pick up truck driven by a scruffy looking man early in the morning. 

I'm sure their assumptions were all over the place. The more you explain, the more guilty they think you are.

but back to the thread, if someone shows poor judgement in the past and an inability to understand why and how, I can't imagine giving them another chance. Not with the same person and /or similar situations.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Candie. It WOULD be more boundary conscious. But still is treading on my boundary.

He had an EA with a girl at work. Poor boundaries on his part. To me it is craziness to accept him behaving in the same way that led to his EA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Ya, I understand that completely...I think it takes awhile for them to truly 'get it'...a long while! I know with my H, I had to go around and around and around until he finally GOT it.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

CandieGirl said:


> Ya, I understand that completely...I think it takes awhile for them to truly 'get it'...a long while! I know with my H, I had to go around and around and around until he finally GOT it.


Well this is it you see... It's been a year and a half. We've been round and round too. My worry is that we will KEEP going round and round. I just don't get what is so difficult!

It's MORE frustrating because I can't do anything about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

tobio said:


> Well this is it you see... It's been a year and a half. We've been round and round too. My worry is that we will KEEP going round and round. I just don't get what is so difficult!
> 
> It's MORE frustrating because I can't do anything about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When my H 'didn't get it', it was because he always thought there was an exception to the rule, so to speak. I wasn't comfortable with opsex friendships, for example. He thought it was OK to call up his old FWB for her Bday...uh, no. Once that was cleared up, and I thought he was getting it, he announces that he's going out to dinner with an old colleague of his that he'd once wanted to date. Uh, again...no, not acceptable! 

He finally understands that I am just not comfortable with him having female friends, period, as he had lax boundaries that led to an EA in his previous marriage. The same goes for me, BTW, I do not have male friends, as I have my own checkered history prior to H, and I do not wish to put myself at risk! Boundaries! They really do work wonders. Once you 'get it'.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

CandieGirl said:


> When my H 'didn't get it', it was because he always thought there was an exception to the rule, so to speak. I wasn't comfortable with opsex friendships, for example. He thought it was OK to call up his old FWB for her Bday...uh, no. Once that was cleared up, and I thought he was getting it, he announces that he's going out to dinner with an old colleague of his that he'd once wanted to date. Uh, again...no, not acceptable!
> 
> He finally understands that I am just not comfortable with him having female friends, period, as he had lax boundaries that led to an EA in his previous marriage. The same goes for me, BTW, I do not have male friends, as I have my own checkered history prior to H, and I do not wish to put myself at risk! Boundaries! They really do work wonders. Once you 'get it'.


So Candie - was there a lightbulb moment for him when he finally got it? Or was it gradual?

What consequences did you have for him when he wasn't on board? Did you talk about leaving? Or anything else? What worked?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

It's really hard to get someone to see things from your perspective if they really don't see what they're doing as wrong.

Hubby and I have really been talking about boundaries a LOT lately. He has had various women that have gravitated to him over the course of our marriage. 

We were talking about it and I pointed out that ALL of them were of course in crisis and turning to him for help. While I wouldn't want him to be a heartless jerk, I can tell from his reaction that he really doesn't understand how the time and energy he invests in 'helping' them really hurts me when I have trouble getting that same time and attention.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Tobio~

I'll be brief because I suspect that you know this to be the case. As I've pointed out to you several times before, a boundary is something AROUND YOU, not around him. So you may say "I have chosen to not have a partner in my life who goes out with opposite sex people and says they are friends" and that actually is a boundary. "You may not have opposite sex people in your life and say they are friends" is controlling. A boundary has to do with YOU and not with HIM. 

I know part of your head says, "I know that!" but read through your thread. Every time you write, it's about you trying to make him do things your way! From what I see, every time you use the word "boundary" it means "this is the restriction I have placed upon you" and somehow you made this rule and he "agreed to it" so that makes it a boundary.

What I'm trying to tell you is this:* you can not control him.* 

I know you keep trying to use the term "boundary" for forcing him to do what you want and ignoring what he wants.... but you can call it a curtain if you want to, that's not the point. The point is that you can not force him to do what you want. You are miserable and hurting and thinking he doesn't "get it' when he does! YOU want him to restrict his contact with other women, and he wants to continue to be in contact with them. Okay I get it...he "agree to it" but his actions have been crystal clear as a bell. He wants to keep rescuing women and ignoring his duty to give 100% of his affection AND LOYALTY to only his wife.

Sooooo...here's the first thing you can do to help yourself ADMIT that you can not control him!!! As soon as you embrace that you can not make him want to say no to other women and that he WANTS to say yes...the faster you'll feel better. The second thing you can do is take some time FOR YOURSELF to figure out if you do or do not want that kind of person as a partner sharing your life. See you can make rules (that he doesn't want to do, but he agrees to just to move it along), you can set limits, you can do all that and if he wants to say yes to the other women--AND HE VERY CLEARLY DOES!!!--he will. 

The only person you can control is YOU (not him). If you don't want that kind of person as a partner to share your life, then you are completely free to change YOU. Change where you live or how you live or how you do things...but change YOU. 

Make sense?


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Hiya AC 

I thought REALLY carefully about what you posted.

I understand the concept of boundaries - until he oversteps them. I think that is when it all gets confused.

Then it's all about how he knows how I feel yet he decides to do what he wants anyway. Or do what he thinks is okay. Or however it is.

Then I get angry at him.

I know SO MUCH I can't control him. I let go of that thinking a while ago. My problem is that I feel so outraged that he'd think of stepping on my feelings again that THAT is when it turns into something else.

I'm probably not making much sense here. But I think you are right really.

I'm just so thoroughly p!ssed off. You know what? I have been SO GOOD to him. I continue being SO GOOD to him and he keeps doing this stuff. Then berates me for being unreasonable. And I go off and think, well, maybe I am. Then I think, no actually - I'm dead right. But then short of leaving, I don't know what else to do. I don't know if there IS anything else.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

tobio said:


> I thought REALLY carefully about what you posted.
> 
> I understand the concept of boundaries - until he oversteps them. I think that is when it all gets confused.
> 
> ...


Okay let me stop you right here. Let me give you an example that might help you see the forest for the trees. Let's make the boundary something completely different than what you're dealing with. Alright?

So let's say that your boundary is that you do not want to have a partner for life who drinks and spends more than 50% of his income "at the bar." Got that example in your head? It has to do with you--that is just not your thing and not the kind of life you want for yourself and your children. Okay. 

So you are married to a man who is aware that is one of your boundaries. One time he is turning 40 and has a huge blow out party at a bar with every friend he's ever known in his whole life, and he spend 55% of his income for that month on that party. 

In that instance you may give him your input, but you can decide in your head to do one of two things: 1) this is a once-in-a-lifetime situation and kind of understandable so you choose to be okay with it, or 2) he knew that spending that much at a bar would cross a boundary and did it anyway and so you choose to NOT be okay with it. 

Obviously if you're ok'ay with it, you two just carry on. But what if you choose to NOT be okay with it'? You realize that you can't stop him or force him to do what you want--if he's going to honor your boundary it has to be because HE chooses to do so. The fact that he knows your boundary and chooses to cross it anyways puts you in the position, not of trying to MAKE him do what you want, but of looking at yourself and saying, "I am not okay with this. What am I going to change about me without nagging him or giving him grief? What am I going to do differently or feel differently because of this? What change am I going to make to me because of this?" 



> I know SO MUCH I can't control him. I let go of that thinking a while ago. My problem is that I feel so outraged that he'd think of stepping on my feelings again that THAT is when it turns into something else.
> 
> I'm probably not making much sense here. But I think you are right really.
> 
> I'm just so thoroughly p!ssed off. You know what? I have been SO GOOD to him. I continue being SO GOOD to him and he keeps doing this stuff. Then berates me for being unreasonable. And I go off and think, well, maybe I am. Then I think, no actually - I'm dead right. But then short of leaving, I don't know what else to do. I don't know if there IS anything else.



In our example, if he knew about the "no more than 50% of the income at the bar" and still did it anyway, even knowing that you were not okay with it, it would be an attempt to control him to make threats. For example, it would be controlling to say, "Don't throw that party at the bar, or the kids and I are packing and leaving." See how that is trying to make him do it your way, and if he doesn't do it your way, he will be punished with that threat? 

A boundary in my example would be "Oh you know where I stand, and you are completely free to choose whatever you want. You're free! But just be aware I am also free to make my choices based on what I see and observe, and how I'm treated." And when he chooses to throw the party...he may choose of his own accord to cut it back to the top 100 friends so that it's less than 50% of the income on that one party. If he still did choose to throw the big shebang, yep I have no doubt whatsoever that you'd be hurt and probably think, "That party meant more to him than I did." So then you ask YOURSELF (not him) "What am I willing to change or do differently to my life because of this event?" 

Here you brainstorm. I myself am very close with my husband. I share every thought and feeling with him, even when they are not very flattering of myself, don't show me in a good light, or are not entirely fully formed. So for him to treat me like that would be astoundingly hurtful to me. My guess is, it's the same for you. But just to be aware, though, a boundary is not something you set in an effort to make an extrovert act like an introvert after marriage. Nope, in that instance you'd read up on what an extrovert means, try to study how extroverts act, and learn what parts of being an extrovert are their natural personality and not just them being hurtful to you. 

A boundary really should be a DEAL-BREAKER. 

So in our example, she is NOT okay with the party, he has the big drunken party anyway...and now she has to think. So part of the issue is that before the party even began, there had been commitment issues between the two spouses. The primary commitment in marriage is one spouse TO THE OTHER above all others, including children. So to be in the position of a drunken party meaning more than hurting their spouse indicates some already serious disconnect and harm!! That damage is already there and it's already incredible serious! 

Next, the drunken party is a boundary...the lady does not want that in her life or for herself and her children. Now, the guy is also the children's parent, equal in every way with her and her choices for them. She can not stop HIM from exposing them to drunkenness--and honestly that part of HER consequence for choosing him to father children! Since it is a deal-breaker, that is a hill to die on... So she doesn't threaten or fight or nag him. He knows. He chooses to do it anyway. So she chooses to pack her luggage, the children's luggage, and move out. 

Now...in her head she may say "I will move to our vacation home first for a week. If he takes responsibility and shows me with actions he's serious, I'll consider my options at that time. If after a week, he's still wanting to be drunk and blame me for letting him experience the consequence of his choices, I'll lease an apartment for 6 months. If he takes responsibility and shows me with actions he's serious, I'll consider my options at that time. If after 6 months, he's still demonstrating by his actions that he wants to be drunk and rugsweep, I'll take legal action." The point being this: she doesn't have to divorce his A$$ that night. She can give him a fighting chance to work on himself and figure it out. 

But a boundary is a hill to die on, otherwise it is control.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Read lots and thoroughly digested. This really helps, thanks.

I realised I have spent a lot of time understanding our differences. But at the expense of my happiness. I have swallowed up a lot of stuff thinking I was being accepting of who he is, I knew that and only he can change him. 

The thing I have realised is that I have done a LOT of reflecting and developed a higher awareness of who "I" am and worked on being a better me. But he hasn't really done that - or if he has, it hasn't really shown. And if he hasn't been respectful of my boundaries and understood his EA - then really we have ZERO progress.

If I do the summarised version of our relationship, it looks pretty stark really. I won't do that now but it is difficult to think of a time where he embraced our relationship freely and joyfully. Done something significant off his own back because he wanted me so much. All big events have been instigated by me (apart from creating the kids!) The other stuff has been us two fighting each pther. I could reel off such events and how they went down. In hindsight I have never had that affirmation originating from him of my importance to him.

Pretty sad really - it doesn't make for a romantic story to tell the grandchildren.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

tobio said:


> So Candie - was there a lightbulb moment for him when he finally got it? Or was it gradual?
> 
> What consequences did you have for him when he wasn't on board? Did you talk about leaving? Or anything else? What worked?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



It was gradual. When he realized what it was that I wouldn't put up with (the boundary around myself as AC put it) the light bulb started going on.

The consequence was my telling him that I don't want this type of thing in my life (other women clamoring for his attention while I sat patiently waiting for my turn). When we were dating, he went to visit his kids on the West Coast. The arrangement he always had with his ex was that he'd stay there. I told him simply "If you're going to be with me, you realize that I can't put up with things like this...". He put an end to that.

As far as going out with other women, date-style, I told him that I wasn't comfortable with him dating other women. He did try arguing that it wouldn't be a date for HIM. I asked him, what about for HER? What do you do if SHE thinks this is a 'date'? Hmmm...he hadn't thought of that angle...she was, after all, asking him out to dinner. He suggested bringing me along...and then he never heard from her again. Strange, that, hmmm?

I did take things off the rails once, when his old sex buddy started texting him last Christmas. I was just up to my eyeballs with these other broads coming around continually stepping on my toes. I told him he just simply had to get rid of her and make sure she stays away. So he sent her a weak text explaining the situation...and she writes back ripping into him in an "I was your friend before SHE came along" type of way. I found her on Facebook and politely told her that her presence was not welcome in our marriage and to please leave us alone. I told him that if she continues to interfere, the consequence for her would be a tough one, as I would have exposed her as an attempted home-wrecker at her place of work, with her family, and friends, too.

I guess it is somewhat controlling...but I really don't WANT these people interfering in my life, so why should I put up with it? Sometimes, he says he gave up a lot for me (martyr!)...and I tell him by all means...go back, get all the female 'friends' you want, but if you do, I'm outta this marriage. Honestly? The women in our case plainly were interested in more than platonic friendship. FLUSH.


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

super helpful as always, AC.

tobio, this is not the first time that i have felt that our situations have a lot in common 

i have finally convinced my WH to give MC a try. you can tell from that statement that he is less than thrilled about doing this. he says that, nevertheless, he is going to give it a 100% good faith effort.

i don't know what will happen. this was very important to me, in that if he could not consider it, i could not go forward, given our complete lack of success in trying R on our own. so i am happy that he was wiling.... but i am not filled with optimism. i'm aware that i could be on my hill right now, and that the next step is to separate.

i have plenty to work on in myself, and i am up for that. i embrace that, actually. but he will need to see some of his own issues as problems too -- and i have to accept that i can't MAKE him do that. 

this is so hard for me. it seems so obvious that if two people can each be accountable for their own baggage and address it -- and eventually leave much of it behind -- that great happiness is possible! 

that's easier said than done, of course, and we never reach the end of that journey -- it's more a way of life. but it seems like a worthy goal that offers so much promise.

but what seems clear to me does not seem clear to him. we are different that way.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

My husband has a phone full of numbers of women from work. He has gone on week-long camps with them and they often work together alone all night long. 99 percent of the time it is just fine and boundaries respected. My boundary, keep it business. He never goes drinking or socializing after work and any text received is business or directed at me too if chit-chatty. In 7 years I have had 2 women cause me concern. I brought it to his attention and both situations were handled by him on his own promptly and better than I could have asked. Before H, I had a boyfriend who had phone full of female contacts. We were almost common-law and these women didn't know I existed. If there was someone who caused me concern, he just took it underground. Similar situations as in female contact but different levels of respect towards me. 
My boundary isn't 'no contact with females', mine is, 'make me your priority and if someone causes me concern, please respect that.'
In your scenario with helping move something, my husband would have offered, but in the future and we'd go together or with another co- worker going along.
Your husband keeps choosing to not get it. Just like my bf before, he's just not wired that way. He sees it as somewhat as a punishment to show respect for you. The way he gets around it is by following, 'it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission'. I think he's playing you. Not cheating playing, but doing what he wants and playing dumb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Well...

Hubz told me last night he didn't want to talk about it anymore. Said it was pointless as we'd just end arguing until 2am and nothing would get resolved.

I told him I wanted him to go to IC a few nights ago. He has not brought it up at all since. There is no indication he is considering it. It is hard because I cannot let this one go. 

The worst thing? I could just about cope with him doing that if he had apologised and shown an ounce of understanding and insight. He has not shown one iota of sympathy or that he has understood.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

tobio said:


> Well...
> 
> Hubz told me last night he didn't want to talk about it anymore. Said it was pointless as we'd just end arguing until 2am and nothing would get resolved.
> 
> ...


He doesn't want change this. If he did he would be moving heaven and earth to do so. He knows your boundary is to try and get him to understand and 'beat a dead horse'. Of he can wait it out and play dumb, you'll eventually drop it. He has learned to ask forgiveness rather than permission. He gets it. But if he admits that he has to honor and respect that or be a REAL out in the open douche and trample all over it.
He's not trying to get it or make you more comfortable, he's waiting you out.
To be fair, not every woman would need such a strict boundary. You two may just be mismatched. I've read other threads. I bet if you husband was more invested in you and you family this boundary would not be so strict with you. 
He likes his beers out this night with friend, this night with co-worker, this event with this one. And he's married why? It's easier to get a sitter on the nights he'd have the kids? You have no family demands on him. You have no beers with your girls or movie nights. I bet if that was evened out in your relationship, the rest would fall in to place. 
Do you work outside the home? Do you have interests that get you out of the home? Do you have 'me' time where he runs the house?
You sit faithful, patient and accountable 24/7. He needs to see you outside the role as nanny and housekeeper.
That boyfriend I mentioned. For the record, I turned him around by giving some of the same back. I'm not a cheater but I told him since he thought his behaviour was acceptable, I would behave in the same manner. I went out with friends and co-workers (I worked with firemen and cops) in groups after shift and wouldn't tell him nor invite him. I did exact thing he did to me. When he complained I explained he did it and he thought it was correct so what was the issue?
You don't have to take things that far. I was pretty done by that time and just didn't care anymore. It is kind of immature and there is a risk. But I would for sure get some of your own interests and if there is a conflict, maybe he needs to figure out child care arrangements and see you more as the wonderful woman you are with diverse interests rather than caretaker.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

golfergirl said:


> My husband has a phone full of numbers of women from work. He has gone on week-long camps with them and they often work together alone all night long. 99 percent of the time it is just fine and boundaries respected. My boundary, keep it business. He never goes drinking or socializing after work and any text received is business or directed at me too if chit-chatty. In 7 years I have had 2 women cause me concern. I brought it to his attention and both situations were handled by him on his own promptly and better than I could have asked. Before H, I had a boyfriend who had phone full of female contacts. We were almost common-law and these women didn't know I existed. If there was someone who caused me concern, he just took it underground. Similar situations as in female contact but different levels of respect towards me.
> My boundary isn't 'no contact with females', mine is, 'make me your priority and if someone causes me concern, please respect that.'
> In your scenario with helping move something, my husband would have offered, but in the future and we'd go together or with another co- worker going along.
> *Your husband keeps choosing to not get it. Just like my bf before, he's just not wired that way. He sees it as somewhat as a punishment to show respect for you. The way he gets around it is by following, 'it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission'. I think he's playing you. Not cheating playing, but doing what he wants and playing dumb.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's my impression too, it's not that he doesn't get it, he does, but he refuses to do what you want him to do because he can. 
From my POV, it seems as if he views your 'boundaries" as you dictating to him what he can & can't do.
Boundaries are control to him & he doesn't want to be controlled.
I would read & re-read AffairCare's VERY insightful last post, there are some very powerful statements in that post.
A boundary IS a hill to die on, it's your line in the sand, if your SO does X, then Y will happen because of it. 
In order for a boundary to have an impact, there has to be a consequence of crossing the boundary.


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## onthefence210 (Apr 29, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> What you're seeing is that there are 2 types of boundary pushers.
> 
> There are "one time" boundary pushers, and there are people who are drawn, compulsively, to boundary pushing.
> 
> ...


This post is amazing. Is it possible for the bell to ring for both unloveable and narcissist? Can unloveable lead to narcissism?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

tobio said:


> Hubz told me last night he didn't want to talk about it anymore. Said it was pointless as we'd just end arguing until 2am and nothing would get resolved.
> 
> I told him I wanted him to go to IC a few nights ago. He has not brought it up at all since. There is no indication he is considering it. It is hard because I cannot let this one go.
> 
> ...


tobio~
How long have we been writing back and forth now? Is it almost a year? It's a long time, right? I obviously only hear your side of it, and trust me I know that if he told the story here it would be completely different from his point of view! You also know me--I am VERY pro-marriage. I very much want and expect and hope and encourage you to keep the promises you made to HIM when you said you'd forsake all others only for him, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health. 

HOWEVER....


...that all being said, I want you to stop and think of two things:

1) He has made it pretty clear that he doesn't want to fight with his wife until 2am anymore. Now nothing personal, but that is a reasonable request. No human being wants to continuously be with another human being who is speaking to them in a loud volume disrespectfully, judgmentally, and angrily for hours. I bet you don't...I know I don't!! So part of the issue here is that your husband associates "tobio" and "being yelled at me for hours" in his head. This is not the way to reconcile, and this is something on your side of the street that you are going to have to address. 

See...part of reconciliation is BOTH people looking at themselves and thinking a little bit like "If we were just dating, would I be the kind of person that my spouse would WANT to be around?" Now internally you may be kind, gentle, loving, thoughtful, etc. but do you treat him that way EXTERNALLY? Right now, it seems like he associates you with arguing for hours (even if that is an unrealistic view). Sooooo...just to see if he has a point, this next week, I would ask if you'd keep a journal. Every time you treat him in a kind, gentle, loving, thoughtful way...write it down like a list. And every time you speak in anger, raise your voice, belittle, speak judgmentally, or are unloving or not thoughtful OF HIM (his thoughts and feelings)...write that down on a different list. It will be hard to catch yourself, but try to be aware. Then after 5 days or a week or whatever, compare the lists. Is one way longer? If you were just dating someone, and they treated you like the "not so great" list, would that be the kind of person you would want to be around?

BTW, I know that part of your head may say "YEAH BUT...." such as "Yeah but I yelled at him because he drove with that woman!" as if his bad behavior justifies your bad behavior. In real life, no matter what he does, how he acts, or what he says...YOU are responsible for what you choose. And if you choose to yell at him because he drove with that woman...that is what YOU choose, not him. You need to take responsibility and decide if that's the kind of person you want to be. If it's not, then you need to change that, regardless of what he does. 

2) He has made it pretty clear that he doesn't want to fight with his wife until 2am anymore. Yes I realize this is exactly the same as #1 above, but this time, let's step back and look at this objectively. When a person is told they need to call the office to make arrangements to pick up their paycheck (because there was some SNAFU)...do they dawdle around and put it off for days and days while their spouse nags them to do it? NO!! They pretty much RUSH to the phone and take care of it ASAP. Why? Because they WANT their paycheck! They WANT it. What if they are out in the middle of nowhere hunting and they get the message and there's no signal out there? Do they dawdle? NOPE...they leave the 'middle of nowhere' as soon as they can and get to civilization where there's signal and make that call! In other words, they WANT that paycheck and without even being nagged to do so, they will quit what they're doing to immediately take care of it. 

It's the same for anything that someone really wants. Do I have to remind and remind and remind you to come here and post? Do you have to ask and ask and ask me to reply to your posts? No! Because we WANT it! We do it freely of our own will, and no one has to remind us. 

When a person consistently (over and over and over again) "agrees to" something and then does not do it, that is an indication that they don't really agree enthusiastically. Usually it's a sign that in their heart of hearts they disagree, but don't have the courage to say "no." So in real life, inside, they disagree...they want to keep doing whatever it is they are doing...they don't have the courage to say "no I don't agree with that" ... so they agree just to get past the arguing or fighting, and then what do they do? Just keep doing what they want and then say "Oh I forgot!" or "Oh I didn't think that would apply to this one." 

Tobio, be honest with yourself. He may have "agreed" in the counselor's office when both YOU and some complete stranger told him that his choices were inappropriate for a marriage, but in his heart of hearts he has been 100% consistent. He WANTS the approval of women. He WANTS to be the rescuer. You clearly do not approve of him, so he turns to others who do. You clearly do not need him, so he turns to others who do. This IS what he wants and it's where he's at. This may not be what you want to hear, but it's THE TRUTH. 

So now the questions becomes: a) are you willing to change YOU so that you act externally like the kind of woman you are internally (see #1 above)? b) are you willing to approve of him? c) are you willing to show how you need him? d) are you willing to have a man who needs approval and who needs to rescue in your life?


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

onthefence210 said:


> This post is amazing. Is it possible for the bell to ring for both unloveable and narcissist? Can unloveable lead to narcissism?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You actually brought up the very question I've been mulling over now and then over a couple of weeks. I thought for a while that unloveable / narcissist were two opposite ends of a range. One hates himself, the other worships himself.

Since then, I've decided that they aren't true opposites. They are of course opposite in one respect (self-love, or lack thereof) but they are highly similar in another (self-centeredness). I think it's due to the fact that they share the latter quality, that the two can appear to blur or co-exist in one person. 

However, a narcissist--a true, extreme narcissist--amounts to a sociopath who cares not one whit for other human beings. (Right now I understand that narcissists and sociopaths are separate categories under the DSM-IV.) Narcissists are also "oriented toward success" because of their self-love, while the 'unloveables' likely aren't because they don't believe they deserve it. However, both extremes of self-centeredness can be self-destructive, for obvious reasons. So to summarize: unloveables--highly self-preoccupied, but self-hating; narcissists--highly self-preoccupied, but self-adoring and hence self-promoting.

I am a layperson and these speculations are just my own based on anecdotal evidence. It's nothing more than my way of trying to understand WHY someone would do the things they do.

The only thing I can say is regardless of the label, someone who exhibits these qualities needs expert help, but as long as they don't feel they need 'fixing,' there's little chance for change.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Thanks everyone for the replies. Really busy here so will reply later but will say...

I'm not a "fighter" like yelling and whatnot. It's actually all very civilised! The problem there is it doesn't get resolved and this is what he means. That is both our faults AND also MY fault. I lack decisiveness. I guess I'm afraid of making a bad decision... So I don't make one.

I feel I am good to him. He very frequently tells me this openly and without prompting or coersion. However, it is true that many of the major decisions in our lives have been governed by him. I am happy to discuss my feelings on a subject and meet in the middle if I feel strongly on something - despite my indecisiveness on some izsues, I do have very strong feelings on certain things.
. 
He however when he has strong feelings will not consider middle ground or my opinion. Therefore there are a nu nber of issues dear to me where I have acceded to him and in good grace. He just won't do this with me EVER. I see my part in this - flogging a dead horse I suppose. I just find it frustrating that I listen to and work to understand his feelings and I don't get the same in return.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

This should be a freaking stickie!!!
And when people say there is a lack of communication in their relationship, I would bet that at least 90% of the time it's due to what this post below is about. 
They're afraid for whatever reason to speak up, so instead they are passive aggressive in response. 



> When a person consistently (over and over and over again) "agrees to" something and then does not do it, that is an indication that they don't really agree enthusiastically. Usually it's a sign that in their heart of hearts they disagree, but don't have the courage to say "no." So in real life, inside, they disagree...they want to keep doing whatever it is they are doing...they don't have the courage to say "no I don't agree with that" ... so they agree just to get past the arguing or fighting, and then what do they do? Just keep doing what they want and then say "Oh I forgot!" or "Oh I didn't think that would apply to this one."


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

AC

Read your post more thoroughly.

I would like to reiterate, I am not a yeller, or a shouter. Our discussions are civilised. I tend to address things like writing an essay at school, like, "this is what is bothering me, this is why it is bothering me, how do you feel about that, what can we do, I suggest this, what do you think..." etc. It is very hard for me as I am a conflict avoider but part of our counselling was for me to address when I am upset about something and be direct rather than pretend I'm not upset.

I hold my hands up to the fact I go over and over things. This is where me and hubz come completely unglued. I think by going over and over things he will see the "light" (read: understand my hurt) and miraculously do all the right things to show me he is a good good person. Thus the staying up until 2am thing.

He is different in that he avoids bad feeling by pretending it isn't happening. He will leave the room for whatever reason, and when he comes back in, he will be being all loving and funny to break the ice. Whilst it diffuses things, it doesn't actually help resolve the problem. Then when I bring it up again, he gets angry because he'll say, "but we talked about this the other day!", which will be completely correct, but he overlooks the fact we didn't sort it out!

The list thing is a good idea. I feel I am conscious of him. I am thoughtful of him and careful of what comes out of my mouth. 

Re: part 2. Yes I get what you are saying. I have been coming to this realisation about a number of things in our lives recently. I hear you loud and clear.

The fact is, I broached this all earlier. He was not willing to talk about it. AT ALL. I started to say how I'd thought about it from his perspective -and he cut me off saying I hadn't at all. Er, okay? I said how I'd been hoping for some input from him, talking about my suggestion of IC, when he told me that actually, it was ME who needed to go to counselling, that he'd thought that for years (a reference to a serious bout of depression I had when my second child was 2, 4 years ago.)

Now THAT was a low blow and a complete deflection. Just ignored the actual issue at hand and turned it round on me. I just realised that I am NOT going to get ANYTHING from him. It doesn't matter if *I* change any more than I have done - he refuses to accept any accountability and now him breaking boundaries is MY fault because I need counselling? Nonono.

I know what I need to do.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Last night. He kept asking if I was okay in passing. "No." "Why?" "The same reason as we discussed earlier." I know what he was doing - checking up in the hopes I had given up on pursuing things.

He went out and we talked when he came back. I was pretty p!ssed off at what he'd said earlier and I guess if I'm being honest I was hoping that he would have thought about it and be willing to do IC like I suggested, or even something else he thought might help restore trust. Because at that point I was out of hope.

He did talk. But I SWEAR we had the EXACT same conversation that we have had maybe three times this week? He keeps asking me exactly what the problem is, telling me the exact same things... From that it really appears that he really hasn't listened to anything I've said for whatever reason.

However... He somewhat reluctantly said he'd go to IC. He said he didn't really see the point because all he could see happening was he tells the counsellor why he's there ---> the counsellor asks what my boundaries are ---> hubz tells them ---> counsellor says good, now you know. That was it for him. Said it would take 5 minutes.

Actually I don't hold out much hope. I suspect he will be "far too busy" to phone up this week. I want him to do it and show willing. So we shall see.


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