# The PA and the walkaway BS - is it really the sex or betratyal?



## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

not sure if I titled correctly but instead of polluting another thread on this I opened a new one.....I have seen more statements than usual lately around those claiming that a PA is a total deal breaker, however many (not all) not actually having experienced it. Below is wmn1 and I starting discussions about it.....



CantBelieveThis said:


> _Not that simple for others, I was one of those that a PA would been a deal breaker, but when u take a look at the big picture and realize all that's at stake (kids, their livelihood, finances, housing, logistics, etc,,) it can be a real nightmare. Nothing new around here on that, plenty of us in that situation.
> Yes I hate that my wife had a PA, but honestly the whole sex thing wasn't as hard to overcome for me, 2 yrs out and I haven't had mind movies for a very long time, thou they were never that bad really, and based on reading their texts (not taking her word for it) the OM was impotent and lousy, so things never really worked right for them. I never cared about OM or blamed it on him, honestly he was a loser, a nobody.
> I think we give too much power to the sexual stuff, wherein the real issue is the absolute betrayal of the marriage. If I were to end it it would be because of that, not the actual sex act itself. But for example, if they had sex on marital bed that level of betrayal is very high, and again irregardless of the quality/quantity of sex acts themselves. Would I have been able to overcome that? I do not know, prbly not, not unless we moved out of such house totally.
> 
> Just wanted throw my 2 cents, I have seen a lot of posts around here lately of people claiming a PA would be a deal breaker, and many not even experienced it. I mean did those of us that decided to stay lose some badge of honor or something? I hope not._





wmn1 said:


> _I disagree in part. The sexual part of the affair is very harmful. We don't give it too much power. It has a lot of power by itself. the way you diminish the impact of a physical affair I may be guilty in diminishing the impact of an EA. Both are bad but I could overcome an early stage EA with work, hard work but not a PA. We may be different.
> 
> And if you ask, I suffered both some 20 years ago. Currently, and long time removed, the EA doesn't bother me one bit. I could give a crap about her or the OM. I am better off as I have long since moved on to greener pastures. The fact that she was banging away at the OM still gives me an occasional mind movie. It happened in 1995.
> 
> We all value things differently but there are too many people on these boards who devalue the impact of a PA. Of course this would change if they threw a porn movie on and it was their wayward spouse starring in it._



I totally get your point, am really not in a position to agree or disagree with your stance on this, as its based on your experience. It is a tough one no doubt. Believe me my decision was 49% leave and 51% stay, and even then it was because I still wanted her, it wasnt all because of the other divorce factors, thou they weighed in very heavily.
However I do see a lot of those PA walkaway comments by many that havent experienced it. Heck I would have told you the same thing a few years ago. But to be honest sometimes they do come across as if those of us who chose to R have lost some honor or something, and maybe we did, I sure would like to know the details on that.
Some things that helped me with the PA side of things are, is her body, not mine, she can choose to do whatever she wants with it, I do not own it , but it doesnt mean I have to stay around for it, thats my choice alone. 
Also from a purely physical standpoint, if I left her and got together with someone else they would have shared their body with someone else very likely already, so the fact she got sexual with someone else is not too far off from both of us having slept with other people before we married....but you really have to see that from a purely physical aspect only, because it absolutely does not diminish the betrayal part of it which is at the core of everything I believe, when you peel back the layers in the onion, the heart of it all is the betrayal, is not the sexual acts themselves, IMHO.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Another thing is, in todays dating world apparently you can date w/o been exclusive to each other. Meaning someone you are dating could be sleeping with someone else at the same time...and not really have to tell you about it....ugh....what the heck is that, that was a no no in my days, not sure what has changed. 
Yes I totally understand is not a marriage union where exclusivity is an absolute, but still from a purely physical standpoint how is that ok?? If you left your spouse because of a PA would you tolerate non-exclusive dating? 

If there is one thing that still triggers me about my W PA is not the sexual act themselves but the fact she was still being sexually intimate with me and also w AP....yuk, you want to bang someone else and cheat on me go have at it....but DO NOT share me with someone else!!!! I let her have it on this one many times.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

i would say that adultery in the classical sense IS and always is a deal breaker.

but life, relationships and circumstances can be complicated. 'one size does not fit all'.

in legal terms, even murder has degrees of gravity; 1st, 2nd, and 3rd and degrees of manslaughter.

adultery is the equivalent to murder to the marriage.

so we deal with it to the degree of severity and gravity and to the degree we can cope.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Not that simple for others, I was one of those that a PA would been a deal breaker, but when u take a look at the big picture and realize all that's at stake (kids, their livelihood, finances, housing, logistics, etc,,) it can be a real nightmare. Nothing new around here on that, plenty of us in that situation.


Most betrayed are in the same boat obligation wise. Excuses. You can't put a price on certain things. Principles can't be negotiated away. 



CantBelieveThis said:


> Yes I hate that my wife had a PA, but honestly the whole sex thing wasn't as hard to overcome for me, 2 yrs out and I haven't had mind movies for a very long time, thou they were never that bad really,


I don't know you but I think you've spend a long time minimizing it as a way to justify taking her back. I think deep down it fvcks with you as much as it did me or anyone else. I think you just decided that you had too much to lose. I on the other hand decided no price was too high to pay to get the fvck away from this b!tch. We're just different people.



CantBelieveThis said:


> and based on reading their texts (not taking her word for it) the OM was impotent and lousy, so things never really worked right for them. I never cared about OM or blamed it on him, honestly he was a loser, a nobody. I think we give too much power to the sexual stuff, wherein the real issue is the absolute betrayal of the marriage.


My ex wife's OM was taking Cialis for his ED and had the small prick to go with it. That's supposed to make me feel better? Trading up I get, trading down seems like MORE of a slap in the face.



CantBelieveThis said:


> If I were to end it it would be because of that, not the actual sex act itself. But for example, if they had sex on marital bed that level of betrayal is very high, and again irregardless of the quality/quantity of sex acts themselves. Would I have been able to overcome that? I do not know, prbly not, not unless we moved out of such house totally.


So banging isn't as bad as banging on your bed? The bed means more to you then her vagina? They both suck. I agree in principle that the bed is an extra slap in the face. My exwife also had OM in my martial bed. By isn't that like drawing the line in the sand AFTER the wife stops crossing it? Point being the line should be further back at the sex NOT the bed. 



CantBelieveThis said:


> Just wanted throw my 2 cents, I have seen a lot of posts around here lately of people claiming a PA would be a deal breaker, and many not even experienced it.


I speak from experience....



CantBelieveThis said:


> I mean did those of us that decided to stay lose some badge of honor or something? I hope not.


Define it how ever you want and you're entitled to disagree. 

In my opinion, you have to swallow your pride to take a cheater back and that costs SOMETHING in the way of dignity or self respect.

You lose a little bit of yourself. You compromised. You ate the sh!t sandwich.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Some things that helped me with the PA side of things are, is her body, not mine, she can choose to do whatever she wants with it, I do not own it , but it doesnt mean I have to stay around for it, thats my choice alone.
> Also from a purely physical standpoint, if I left her and got together with someone else they would have shared their body with someone else very likely already, so the fact she got sexual with someone else is not too far off from both of us having slept with other people before we married....but you really have to see that from a purely physical aspect only, because it absolutely does not diminish the betrayal part of it which is at the core of everything I believe, when you peel back the layers in the onion, the heart of it all is the betrayal, is not the sexual acts themselves, IMHO.


I see things differently (as do we all). What happens before the commitment to marry ought not to be used against either person. At that point, he made no commitment to me. But once the somber vows are taken a huge change occurs.

I promised to love my spouse and only my spouse, and he did to me.
I promised I would forsake others (emotionally and physically) and so did my spouse.

So I have a right to demand that both his heart and his body remain in the marriage. He absolutely had every right to decide what happens to and with his body (and he did, over and over again). If he has a PA, he has broken a vow he made concerning that body and as a spouse I did have a right to object to that use. 

To me this is different that mere betrayal. The marital agreement is broken.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

CantBelieveThis said:


> not sure if I titled correctly but instead of polluting another thread on this I opened a new one.....I have seen more statements than usual lately around those claiming that a PA is a total deal breaker, however many (not all) not actually having experienced it. Below is wmn1 and I starting discussions about it.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No I get it. He11, even though I said it was a dealbreaker for me, I did try to R for about 9 months. It wasn't a real R because I couldn't get into it. I was so destroyed and non-trusting. She failed on her end too which led to Dday #2. Based on that experience, a PA is definitely a dealbreaker now. It was then too but I had too many people talking me into staying that I was in a limbo state for a while. This is one of the reasons why I advise for quick and decisive action, because I had noone helping advise me in that direction.

I get that there are complicated scenarios which make it not so easy for some.

I agree that the betrayal is horrible. While I don't completely agree with your explanation of why the physical aspect of the affair can be somewhat (even if a small bit) mitigated, because to me it's the worst part, I understand your argument. 

My biggest problem is that I couldn't get over the fact that she went there with someone else while bearing my name and being committed to me. It was similar to poisoning my dog. Couldn't get over it. 

Some people can. It's just like the 'lying and trickle truth'. To me, there is no lying or trickle truth if they don't cheat in the first place. But if they do, I fully expect people to lie and TT for a myriad of reasons. I can understand that better than I can the actual cheating.

This is just my stance on it


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Another thing is, in todays dating world apparently you can date w/o been exclusive to each other. Meaning someone you are dating could be sleeping with someone else at the same time...and not really have to tell you about it....ugh....what the heck is that, that was a no no in my days, not sure what has changed.
> Yes I totally understand is not a marriage union where exclusivity is an absolute, but still from a purely physical standpoint how is that ok?? If you left your spouse because of a PA would you tolerate non-exclusive dating?
> 
> If there is one thing that still triggers me about my W PA is not the sexual act themselves but the fact she was still being sexually intimate with me and also w AP....yuk, you want to bang someone else and cheat on me go have at it....but DO NOT share me with someone else!!!! I let her have it on this one many times.


I agree with you, this open relationship garbage sucks. People IMo are morally decrepit. Yes I do have strong views regarding this.

Regarding being sexually intimate with an AP and a BS at the same time, I am not sure. I think they do it to hide the affair as if there's nothing wrong. I get the being turned off to getting sloppy seconds. However, to me it's a double betrayal if they don't take care of your needs while taking care of someone else's. The fact that they are cheating in the first place is worthy of divorce IMO, and immediate divorce. But it's not like these cheaters some to you and say, "oh BTW, I am going out to get banged by Johnny tonight" and give you the chance to dump them. They make you find out on your own and after going 10 months or so without getting your sexual needs filled, these poor suckers are learning from other sources about their WH/WW so then you went without and got cheated on at the same time. Still morally corrupt but is it as bad ??


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> Most betrayed are in the same boat obligation wise. Excuses. You can't put a price on certain things. Principles can't be negotiated away.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't even get it in 'trading up' because I feel that cheaters lose their dignity by going down the cheating road. Jessica Simpson could make a move on me tomorrow and my loyalty and commitment wouldn't allow me to go there. Now if the wife ever stepped out on me after I turned that down, then it's divorce with prejudice vbg

I do agree that reconciling is a swallowing the pride thing and the loss of dignity, even though the BS didn't do anything wrong. it is a loss of self and a $hit sandwich


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

wmn1 said:


> I don't even get it in 'trading up' because I feel that cheaters lose their dignity by going down the cheating road. Jessica Simpson could make a move on me tomorrow and my loyalty and commitment wouldn't allow me to go there. Now if the wife ever stepped out on me after I turned that down, then it's divorce with prejudice vbg


I mean trading up a matter or perception I guess right? Like arguably better looking on the outside but clearly uglier on the inside like you said because they are a cheat. Or in our hypothetical example, having sex with someone who has an 8" d!ck vs say maybe their husband's avg 6" incher. There's some type of cost benefit there where you can say, "I guess they assumed the sex would be better cause of size". Can't really say that with a small and impotent penis.

From what I read, most trade down. My ex traded down inside and out. It being "someone other than me" was worth the swap to her. Or they had "other qualities" that seems to be more important? Like having virtually no morals and being selfish like they are? Who knows? That's why I say the OM is a tool. They want to cheat, do they really care who it is? I don't think so as long as it's not you. They want to cheat on you so ANYONE else will do. Even a lessor man. It's a bigger slap because they slummed it JUST to get one over on you. There's no other explanation when the OM is worse in virtually every other way.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

I think the threshold is different for different people.
If my wife had an EA, I would be very very pissed and would lose trust, but would not divorce her. If she had a PA, then yes I would.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> Most betrayed are in the same boat obligation wise. Excuses. You can't put a price on certain things. Principles can't be negotiated away.
> 
> * hardly any are the same thou, most here agreed that my situation was pretty ****ty due to state laws and my own specific family dynamics, I hardly consider that excuses by any means.*
> 
> ...


*You are right, so long as that doesnt imply that the BS thats in R is a lesser person in any means than the ones that decide to walk away. For a BS is a lose lose, we didnt get any chance for a say in the matter, we only got to make a decision after the devastating outcome.*


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I have no dog in this fight, but I always find it interesting how people compartmentalize and parse things which actually go hand in hand.

Why do I say this?



> is it really the sex or betratyal?


 It is both not an either or to me.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

CantBelieveThis said:


> However I do see a lot of those PA walkaway comments by many that havent experienced it. Heck I would have told you the same thing a few years ago. But to be honest sometimes they do come across as if those of us who chose to R have lost some honor or something, and maybe we did, I sure would like to know the details on that.


Honor? That's up to you to decide. I am in the "1 strike and you're out" camp. No reconciliation, no second chances. My perspective has absolutely nothing to do with you or what you should do. I suspect that _you_ think reconciliation is a loss of honor or humiliation to you and when you see others refusal to reconcile is triggers these feelings in you. I don't think most people would think less of you because of your decision. Why should you?




CantBelieveThis said:


> Also from a purely physical standpoint, *if I left her and got together with someone else they would have shared their body with someone else very likely already, so the fact she got sexual with someone else is not too far off from both of us having slept with other people before we married..*..but you really have to see that from a purely physical aspect only, because it absolutely does not diminish the betrayal part of it which is at the core of everything I believe, when you peel back the layers in the onion, the heart of it all is the betrayal, is not the sexual acts themselves, IMHO.


The sex is as much a betrayal as the establishment of an emotional connection outside the marriage. Some people (not necessarily me) can understand how an EA could develop from innocence and the cheater might be neck deep into it before they realize that it is inappropriate. Therefore, they find it easier to forgive and less painful. 

Sex is a definite, deliberate act.  There is no ambiguity, no "OMG, I didn't realize his penis was inside me!" excuses. There are far too many overt actions that must occur before the actual sex occurs. Each of these is an opportunity for your partner to make the right choice. If they actually have sex, they have made numerous conscious choices to escalate their betrayal. I would never be able to trust such a person again and have no interest in a relationship devoid of trust. 

Having sex with even 100 people before they met you is nothing like an affair. The difference is the commitment. Only when the commitment is made can betrayal occur.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

My observation is men and women look at this differently.
To generalize:

Men: EA is worse than PA, and PA cannot be forgiven.
Women: PA is worse than EA, and EA cannot be forgiven.

My reasoning is that at some level, men look at their women as physical beings rather than emotional beings. So if a physical being is "defiled" (PA), then it loses value. For women, they look to a mental connection rather than a physical one. So if a man has an EA, that connection is betrayed.

Disclaimers: Exceptions exist.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> hardly any are the same thou, most here agreed that my situation was pretty ****ty due to state laws and my own specific family dynamics, I hardly consider that excuses by any means.


No one ever plans to get cheated on. We all get screwed financially and/or with custody of the kids. Especially if you're a male. Adultery means almost nothing is divorce court. That's one of the greatest injustices of the modern day judicial system.



CantBelieveThis said:


> I have always said I only took her back because I still love her, is that simple, if that weren't the case not even the legal circumstances would have mattered. And yes of course it fvcks with you, but now I have the coping mechanisms to put a brake on it


You would of found another woman to love as much if not more. I don't mean to offend but she's not a special flower or a prize. No person is and considering she was able to have physical relations with another man, it's clear that the balance of mutual love is not in your favor.



CantBelieveThis said:


> There is no "right" way to get cheated on is there? it sucks big time


True, both hurt. To me it's more of a case of adding insult to injury.



CantBelieveThis said:


> You are absolutely correct. I probably would have tolerated it as long as we moved out or something. Didn't mean to touch a tender topic for you.


Not tender at all. Talking about it is therapeutic really. I'm on TAM to share my life experience so others don't make the same stupid mistakes I did. Like not dumping their remorseless cheating spouses a lot sooner. 



CantBelieveThis said:


> You are right, so long as that doesnt imply that the BS thats in R is a lesser person in any means than the ones that decide to walk away. For a BS is a lose lose, we didnt get any chance for a say in the matter, we only got to make a decision after the devastating outcome.


Not a lessor person. I'd say scared of the unknown which is just being human. I'm proof there are better choices than eating the sh!t sandwich. I've yet to see ANYONE post on TAM that they've completely regretted dumping their cheating spouse and their lives are far worse off in totality by not reconciling with a remorseless partner.

Says a lot doesn't it?


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

To me, the sex *was *the betrayal. The two things cannot be separated. 

You say that, to you, your wife's body is hers to do with however she pleases. Ok, that's true but the thing is she took a vow to NOT give her body to another. That's a difficult vow for a man or woman to keep but that's what makes it special. They save it for each other exclusively.

I realize that all men are not like me and simply don't care as much about the sex. However, if you ARE a man for whom the sexual component of her cheating is like a hot dagger into your eye beware of trying to reconcile. If you know in your heart you will never truly forgive her betrayal then don't waste a moment - divorce her. Deal with those consequences now rather than suffer for years trying to make it work while a part of you hates her guts. Don't stay for the kids or finances or any reason - all of those things are easy to resolve compared to the suffering you - and she - will endure if you stay together.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

drifter777 said:


> To me, the sex *was *the betrayal. The two things cannot be separated.
> 
> You say that, to you, your wife's body is hers to do with however she pleases. Ok, that's true but the thing is she took a vow to NOT give her body to another. That's a difficult vow for a man or woman to keep but that's what makes it special. They save it for each other exclusively.
> 
> I realize that all men are not like me and simply don't care as much about the sex. However, if you ARE a man for whom the sexual component of her cheating is like a hot dagger into your eye beware of trying to reconcile. If you know in your heart you will never truly forgive her betrayal then don't waste a moment - divorce her. Deal with those consequences now rather than suffer for years trying to make it work while a part of you hates her guts. Don't stay for the kids or finances or any reason - all of those things are easy to resolve compared to the suffering you - and she - will endure if you stay together.


I see your point and totally understand it, but I have been able now to separate the sex from the betrayal, I see them as different. To me the betrayal was abusing my trust, the lying and keeping secrets.

I mean how about things like financial infidelity? that can be just as ugly and unforgiving to many, and I could even say it has more dire impacts to the marriage and the entire family than a PA. There is no sex involved there but the betrayal is the key element which can kill the marriage.

I think the way I see it now is the sex is something people do when they are attracted to each other, what else would be expected to happen? The betrayal is in the WS lying and abusing your trust to allow it to get to a point where there is enough attraction for sex to occur. Then there are things like the drunken ONS, thats on a class of its own because betrayal is not as much a factor on that one as its on an ongoing affair.....

just my view of things, my therapist was able to give me these perspectives, called them coping mechanism or what have you, but I dont see them as distorted or unrealistic at all.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

You need to find your own path that you are at peace with at end of the day. 

Pick and go all in with no regrets. Just be aware and have your own exit plan if you decided to reconcile.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

From reading the long-term experience of many BS's, my own feeling is that the betrayal - the lying, cheating (PA or EA), sneaking, hiding - can eventually kill the respect and love a BS has for his/her spouse.

The death of those feelings doesn't happen overnight, but over a longer period. Some BS's manage reconciliation, but I think very many of them regret it as time goes on. Many simply have no desire or love or respect for their WS's after a while.

So, this for me isn't what we call a dealbreaker because it isn't an immediate judgment. It actually is in the end a dealbreaker, however.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

CantBelieveThis said:


> I see your point and totally understand it, but I have been able now to separate the sex from the betrayal, I see them as different. To me the betrayal was abusing my trust, the lying and keeping secrets.
> 
> I mean how about things like financial infidelity? that can be just as ugly and unforgiving to many, and I could even say it has more dire impacts to the marriage and the entire family than a PA. There is no sex involved there but the betrayal is the key element which can kill the marriage.
> 
> ...


I would divorce in a heartbeat over a ONS too. I could not be married to someone who demonstrated such a complete lack of judgement and self control.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> I see your point and totally understand it, but I have been able now to separate the sex from the betrayal, I see them as different. To me the betrayal was abusing my trust, the lying and keeping secrets.
> 
> I mean how about things like financial infidelity? that can be just as ugly and unforgiving to many, and I could even say it has more dire impacts to the marriage and the entire family than a PA. There is no sex involved there but the betrayal is the key element which can kill the marriage.
> 
> ...


My wife is a compulsive gambler. The lying and stealing was horrific. She drove us into bankruptcy and permantly damaged our retirement plans. Compared to her sexual cheating this is, literally, nothing. I don't forgive her for the lying and cheating she did to keep her gambling habit going for years and I never will. However it does not give me mind movies & it is something that doesn't interfere with my life to the extent her physical cheating did. I monitor our finances and she only has access to one of our checking accounts and I keep very little money in it. I don't trust her with money and I don't trust her when she is around men and I'm not with her. It's just that the gambling thing is something that doesn't torture me.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

As I see it, infidelity is not just about the betrayal of sex outside the marriage. 

It's more about the betrayal of trust. For me, that's the most difficult thing to overcome. And it's not just the trust to keep their wedding vows, but the trust for your spouse not to:

- Lie to you.

- Deceive you.

- Say bad things about you behind your back - even if they may be true.

- Share the private, intimate details of your marriage and sex life.

- Share the details of family finances.

- "Talk or walk", instead of having an A.

So loss of trust can take many forms. It is not easily restored; it is never completely restored. That's why R is so difficult, even with a remorseful spouse.

Newly betrayed spouses; I'm talking to you.


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## MovingFrwrd (Dec 22, 2015)

In response to the original post - it's both. You can't separate the two. Me, being a guy, the PA is horrible, and the lying and the cover-up is incredibly despicable. If a BS were to walk, it's easy to justify it on many, many levels. The transgression itself is the worst for me. The cover up is expected. Of course they don't want you to know. It's just another dagger they stab into you as you walk out the door.

The insult and injury suffered are pretty horrific. I'm taking the stance that the BS hadn't really done anything to justify the affair. Well, in truth, I don't believe that the BS ever does anything that justifies the affair. Only thing that my cause different thoughts would be abuse or an affair of their own, which makes it a revenge affair, which really is a category all of its own.

Very, very few here would fault a BS from walking.


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

When you say that your therapist gave you "coping mechanisms" my question is are they just giving you lies to help you deceive yourself?

I mean, we can talk about ONS vs. Financial Infidelity vs. LTA's vs. flings (something sort of a LTA). Still, each is its own entity. Sex may be the betrayal. For EA's there is no sex, but there is betrayal. Perhaps it is a bit of each one in varying degrees.  Maybe its lies, maybe its lies and sex, maybe its emotions, it depends on the individual BS.

I remember reading a porn actor (Ron Jeremy-I think) say that he would not have a problem with his SO having sex with someone else, but if they went to dinner together that it would kill him because of the intimacy involved. I could not grasp that. I don't want to grasp it. Still, we see that for him it was betrayal.

I think that you have to face the truth of what happened in light of your normal belief system. (not that you are not) If having your wife have sex with another man is THE issue, then there is no need trying to look at it another way. You have to face it. You have to embrace it. You have to decide if that fact and all of the lies that allowed it to happen are too much. In the end, is she worth investing more of your life into again? Is it something that you can forgive in all of its ugliness? I repeat: For each person it is different.

My point is that being open to different perspectives is fine, but having to find a different perspective because the truth does not fit your reality is totally different. Eventually, you are going to fall back into your default position and belief.

To each his own. If changing your perspective is something that you do because you genuinely believe that it needs to change is what happens, then great. You have a new perspective. If you change just because you have to in order to move on, well, I don't know how well you will sleep. In my experience, every BS that I know that has walked away is happy. Those who reconcile seem to look like they got what they wanted, but it was not worth what it cost.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

bigfoot said:


> When you say that your therapist gave you "coping mechanisms" my question is are they just giving you lies to help you deceive yourself?
> 
> I mean, we can talk about ONS vs. Financial Infidelity vs. LTA's vs. flings (something sort of a LTA). Still, each is its own entity. Sex may be the betrayal. For EA's there is no sex, but there is betrayal. Perhaps it is a bit of each one in varying degrees. Maybe its lies, maybe its lies and sex, maybe its emotions, it depends on the individual BS.
> 
> ...


Great post! You say many of the things I was trying to say but you do it a lot better. 

Like you, when I read that his therapist helped him view the sex as not important and calling it coping mechanisms I thought "brain washing". Not that the therapist intended harm - he/she was just trying to help him rationalize his decision to not divorce and give him a mantra to chant when the mind movies hit him. OP - before you get all pis*ed about this I am only saying that this is how I see it and has nothing to do with your perspective. You need to remember that BH's like me cannot comprehend your attitude on the sex. We cannot feel empathy for your situation because your reality is so radically different.


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

badmemory said:


> That's why R is so difficult, even with a remorseful spouse.


........and ....it's excruciating agony for those with an unremorseful spouse



Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Some things that helped me with the PA side of things are, is her body, not mine, she can choose to do whatever she wants with it, I do not own it , but it doesnt mean I have to stay around for it, thats my choice alone.


I'm going to disagree with you here a little. When a person gets married (male or female) the bodies are not theirs to do what they will once you make the marriage commitment, your spouse is the co owner. It's the whole intimacy, health and reproduction aspect. If my wife had sex with another guy after we were married, I'd never be able to touch her again. I would find it repulsive. Maybe that is why I react the way I do when another guy paid attention to her (or she paid attention to a guy). Not going to risk what I think the outcome will be.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

Wow. Them is some mighty fine rose colored glassed that you got from your therapist.

What ever you have to tell yourself to get through the day I guess.

Good luck with that.



CantBelieveThis said:


> I mean how about things like financial infidelity? that can be just as ugly and unforgiving to many, and I could even say it has more dire impacts to the marriage and the entire family than a PA. There is no sex involved there but the betrayal is the key element which can kill the marriage.
> 
> I think the way I see it now is the sex is something people do when they are attracted to each other, what else would be expected to happen? The betrayal is in the WS lying and abusing your trust to allow it to get to a point where there is enough attraction for sex to occur. Then there are things like the drunken ONS, thats on a class of its own because betrayal is not as much a factor on that one as its on an ongoing affair.....
> 
> just my view of things, my therapist was able to give me these perspectives, called them coping mechanism or what have you, but I dont see them as distorted or unrealistic at all.


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

Me having the love language physical touch, I can honestly say this has been the hardest thing I've ever been through, the thought of her being physical with another man was enough to drive me to suicidal thoughts. 

I don't know if it's because of my love language that I felt this way, but I think it has a lot to do with it. To me, any type of physical affair would be a deal breaker, even if it was just a kiss. I don't even know for a fact that STBXW had a PA, just a lot of strange behavior, lies, rug sweeping and gas lighting.

That's enough for me, on top of all of the mental, physical and emotional abuse STBXW has put me through. I could not stand to do the monitoring, it's just not worth it to me, too many lies now and I just won't invest any more time on someone who values me so little. I won't even give her a chance now, it's done, this train wreck of a marriage is finally coming to an end. It feels like a big weight off my chest and I'm looking forward to a new life without her in it. 

I want to start a thread on the different love languages, like maybe folks can contribute and say what it feels like when a spouse goes against your love language. For me, every time she pulled away during a hug, it was like a punch in the stomach, every time she pulled away when I went to kiss her, it was the equivalent to a slap across the face. Every time she said we could have sex and then reject me, it felt like a kick in the nuts. And every time, it hurt like hell and she knew it and abused it.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*The sexual acts perpetrated outside of marriage, just like the covert secrecy of conspiracy against ones spouse, is simply part of the overall deception process!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Interesting topic. I, too, assumed I had hard boundaries. Plus, in my case, W and I have only had each other so a third party now - after 30+ years - would definitely be a complex and vexing issue. Definitely would create huge resentment - now one of us has cheated and experienced something the other hadn't...

However, Lonely Husband's thread gave me pause. Through reflection, solid advice and religion, HE decided R was better than D FOR HIM. AND his FWW has been remorseful as h3ll. 

So now I see it is nuanced. Definitely not one size fits all. AND you have to know the complete picture.

So starting with boundaries and principals, but being willing to choose something hard because you want it more than the alternatives... well now I realize I won't actually know the answer without experiencing it first.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Most EAs go to PA anyway. Either way, BS has been betrayed & in the process lied to, rejected & the icing on the cake. . . made to feel like a fool. 

I don’t believe that anyone can ever get over being betrayed. If they R, it’s simply a matter of learning to live with it. 

R is difficult because it’s hard to learn to live with the pain of having been trashed. 

Betrayal to me marks the end of the marriage that was. 
R is simply starting a new marriage, 

The 1st marriage started with joy. 

The 2nd one starts with deep hurt & sadness.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Wow. Them is some mighty fine rose colored glassed that you got from your therapist.
> 
> What ever you have to tell yourself to get through the day I guess.
> 
> Good luck with that.


lol...actually the glasses have this brownish tint only, sort of like the color of dog sh1t, and with them sitting on my nose they sure stink like it too!

I trully dont mean to imply that the betrayal and sex, wether I see them as one or not, dont matter, they both hurt like hell and the worse thing I have ever experienced, and if I allow it it will consume me to the ground in anger and pain.

There are a lot of reasons, both logical and emotional, for which I decided to R, but I will not agree that I did so out of any form of weakness or fear. I thought long and hard about both R and D, and it was a very close call.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

The PA or EA mean little. The affair is the symptom, the breaking away is the problem. My wife had a "quasi" EA online. I say quasi, because she is adamant about it not being emotional and it was all about her self esteem. To me, it doesn't matter. She isn't an individual anymore. She is an extension of me. We have had our fights, but that is internal. That is our family trying to resolve something within ourselves. I see plenty of men and women that talk badly about their spouses. I don't get it. If I talk, I talk badly about us or about some struggles we have. Once you start badmouthing your spouse to others, it's a break free. You are no longer 100% invested in the relationship. Now, that isn't nearly as egregious as an affair, and it is recoverable.

Once he/she is communicating with someone else, about you, and in an intimate way, they have popped the bubble of marriage. That bubble can take almost anything going on in the inside, but once the inside even tries to get out for a little bit, the bubble is popped and everything is ruined. I don't know how you can recover from that. Its not about them having sex with someone else. The bubble was popped way before that. Maybe they still do love you, but love does not make a marriage. You trusted your soul to this person, through better and worse, sickness and health, whatever, and they violated that. They betrayed you. They popped the bubble. I don't know how that is ever forgivable.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Herschel said:


> I don't know how that is ever forgivable.


my therapist also said you dont have to forgive the transgression, there is no book or law that says you have to, so long as the resentment and desire for revenge stay in check.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> my therapist also said you dont have to forgive the transgression, there is no book or law that says you have to, so long as the resentment and desire for revenge stay in check.


I agree. I never said that there is no reconciliation. You can learn to live with a lot of stuff. Many people live with much much worse. It's just hard for me to look at the person I thought was an extension of myself, my teammate, my life partner and not feel that they aren't 100% committed. I don't even know if anything else really bothers me except for that. I am 100% and you are >100% and now you have to convince me you really are 100%. I don't know how I can reconcile that in my head.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I have never been in the situation of dealing with a betrayal like ONS. If that happend and they confessed immediately and were actually remorseful and willing to take the steps to make things right then it's possible I could move past it.....possible only. 

Full blown affair with lies and deceit then don't let the door hit you on your way out.

EA affair will depend on how far and if lies and deceit was used and to what extent.

I think it's highly personal to each individual


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@Hershel's comments about the "marriage bubble" actually are quite true.

I never understood couples who bad mouthed their spouses. That's the one boundary that is a visible red flag.

However, the bubble metaphor does have interesting implications...

Let's start with the understanding that typically women find an EA harder to forgive whereas men typically find a PA harder to get past. Let's assume that's an "internet fact" since I don't recall any actual research supporting it.

Then let's look at the bubble from a "typical" woman's perspective. H works all the time, or travels all the time, or is too busy in meetings to answer texts, or is curt when he does because he has been interrupted at an important task. If you buy His Needs Her Needs - and I do BTW - H is guilty of failing to meet a primary emotional need. Unfortunately for this poor sap - he might be doing all this hard work SPECIFICALLY to meet another primary need of list women - financial security. Basically this guy is screwed unless he pushes communication hard and as a couple they resolve these conflicting needs - perhaps including his need for admiration and respect which he gets from success at work.

W is in a position where she may feel the bubble is already broken. Now what? Does her EA or PA really "break" the marriage? Wasn't it already broken? And as @Hershel says, once broken, it can never be the same. (Really? Don't know)

My point is I get the TAM mantra that you never blame the BS and you fix the WS before addressing any other issues in the marriage. To me that's a triage decision - you don't want the patient to bleed out on the table. But it's NOT a value judgement. It's not saying BS's faults or contributions to the broken marriage are less egregious.

The BS here will argue my last point. But I bet the WS - at least the ones like I described - might have a different opinion.

I believe I'm pretty objective - no skin in the game here - no infidelity ever for me or W actually. I'm here to be a better H and gain insight into marital problems - to see if I am guilty of creating some and am not aware of it. I've learned a great deal here. This latest clarity - because I too used to think a PA was the worst betrayal one could encounter - now makes me realize the emotional abandonment many women feel might be equally bad. 

If so, maybe R is a more reasonable option if both H and W have contributed to the problem and both still love each other (and of course remorse is clear - on both sides).

Something to ponder...


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## BirdistheWord (Mar 30, 2016)

I don't really understand your position CantBelieveThis. Isn't the most basic and fundamental aspect of marriage promised fidelity? That's the ***** in the "shared responsibility" for the affair armor. It really doesn't matter WTF the BS does in the marriage, it will not compel the cheater to cheat. My behavior cannot force anyone to do anything that is against their moral compass. The "reasons" cheaters give are just excuses and rationalizations. A moral person with character will choose to fix the problem or leave the relationship. Cheating is something else entirely. Really, what is the problem that cheating solves? It typically compounds any problem it's supposed to fix.

We all drag around baggage from our past. My parents divorced when I was 9. My father cheated. I got to experience step mother(s), financial hardships, co-parent drama, and eventually a non-existent father. My relationship with my father has never really recovered. I stayed with my cheating wife because of my experiences. I did not want to have my children to experience some of those things I did. Divorce horrified me for them. My kids were very young when she cheated. I could not imagine not seeing them everyday and being actively involved with raising them. It was important to me to teach them values I considered important and help mold them into well adjusted, productive adults. Luckily, this is exactly what happened. So I swallowed my pride, and it was a bitter pill, and stayed with her. It would have been beyond financially devastating to have divorced at the time of her affair too. The marriage is not, and has not been, the same. I do not respect or completely trust her. I know without a doubt her judgement sucks. It has proven impossible to recover those "feelings" I once had for her. My wife is now just a friend with benefits that cleans the house and does the laundry. 

As a recent empty-nester, I find myself reevaluating staying married. I'm 46 and in good shape. I'm not short and I have most of my hair. I have interesting hobbies. I can converse somewhat intelligently on most subjects. I don't have any addictions or personality disorders and I have a well paying job with a company that I've worked through the ranks at for 23 years. I am certain I won't have too much trouble replacing her. So, I suppose, staying now doesn't always equate to staying forever.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @Hershel's comments about the "marriage bubble" actually are quite true.
> I never understood couples who bad mouthed their spouses. That's the one boundary that is a visible red flag.
> 
> However, the bubble metaphor does have interesting implications...
> ...


I think you have made some excellent points. I never bad-mouth my wife to women or whoever. I had concerns with her drinking, which I talked to her family about and a few close friends in trying to help with that problem. But yeah, there were cracks in our bubble and my WW didn't do a good job telling me about it.

EA is more dangerous that PA, as its easy to walk away from someone if its NSA sex. I've done and doing that, which means when I walk out the door, I am no longer thinking of the person I had sex with. EA is what truly destroys a marriage because the cheater is addicted and won't stop.

From what I just experienced, I think you are right with _"blame the BS and you fix the WS before addressing any other issues in the marriage"_ - because we were in a waiting list and paperwork snafu for our therapy. This was several weeks before we could even go to MC/CC and by then, it was too late. With my EX, cooking in her addiction and we are NOT talking about the affair because we tried and had issues. We should have tried again a week later, looking back. The issues she had with *ME* for a long time where still there. I was not aware of MY issues, but yes - they were there, but is a lame excuse for her to destroy our marriage.

*BUT* things might have been different if she saw me making those changes which I ADMIT MY PART in the damage to our marriage. But she saw no change in me, and couldn't really explain it to me what the problem was. It took others and a therapist to help me recognize my mistakes.

Because of time, drama and mistakes on both sides - our relationship kept being blown to hell over and over again.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Speaking of "blown to hell"...the first 19yrs of our marriage was a wasteland of destruction.
Once me and the old lady stopped dropping bombs on each other the new marriage is really good.

We never really used a nuclear weapon say like her phucking some guy in our home or me hitting her so hard she ended up in the ER....but she phucked alot a guy and yes I pushed her around and in the end we both betrayed each other in one way or another.

It's really sad we spent so many years betraying each other before we got our shyt together.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

BirdistheWord said:


> As a recent empty-nester, I find myself reevaluating staying married. I'm 46 and in good shape. I'm not short and I have most of my hair. I have interesting hobbies. I can converse somewhat intelligently on most subjects. I don't have any addictions or personality disorders and I have a well paying job with a company that I've worked through the ranks at for 23 years. I am certain I won't have too much trouble replacing her. So, I suppose, staying now doesn't always equate to staying forever.


Dude - leave while you still have so much time left to heal and have a new life. If you leave now then being detached from WW will feel normal to your kids when the inevitable grandkids show up. Don't guilt yourself into staying any longer. You've done enough.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

BirdistheWord said:


> I don't really understand your position CantBelieveThis.


I agree with everything you are saying, so am a bit at a loss for what you dont really understand thou.


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## Emmi (Dec 11, 2015)

I really hate the judgement and condescending words Betrayed spouses meet in both forums and real life. Which is part of why I have had a break from forums for a while, and why I chose not to expose my husband in the first place. I'm sick of hearing that I lack self respect and dignity for staying and fighting for my marriage. I'm sick of being told that I am weak and insecure. Or that people assume I am staying out of fear of being alone or of the unknown...

I am making the hard choice, taking a risk. I am keeping my dignity and my morality in honouring my commitment even if he did not honour his. I should be proud of this, not ashamed, I am not the one who did wrong. When it comes to the sex vs betrayal, to me they are one and the same. My husband did not have feelings for OW, not did he physically go all the way with her, but I can't imagine feeling any worse if he had, sure it made it easier to cope with, I could always tell my self at least he didn't do that, at least he didn't go that far, but my emotional state was as bad as it could get. 

It was all deal breakers, him telling her my personal secrets was a deal breaker, emotionally distancing himself from me broke our deals, the physical aspect came after the deal was already shattered. However, this isn't black and white, not every case is the same, I feel like my case is especially different since my husband was going through an existential crisis, he literally was not himself and went against all his morals and believes. Had he been himself and done this I would have felt compelled to leave him, and then I guess the physical bit would have been the ultimate deal breaker.


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## BirdistheWord (Mar 30, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> I agree with everything you are saying, so am a bit at a loss for what you dont really understand thou.


I don't quite understand this:
Some things that helped me with the PA side of things are, is her body, not mine, she can choose to do whatever she wants with it, I do not own it , but it doesnt mean I have to stay around for it, thats my choice alone. 
Also from a purely physical standpoint, if I left her and got together with someone else they would have shared their body with someone else very likely already, so the fact she got sexual with someone else is not too far off from both of us having slept with other people before we married....but you really have to see that from a purely physical aspect only, because it absolutely does not diminish the betrayal part of it which is at the core of everything I believe, when you peel back the layers in the onion, the heart of it all is the betrayal, is not the sexual acts themselves, IMHO.​
Sex is the betrayal in a marriage or any relationship where you've had the exclusive talk. Especially marriage, IMO, where you've formally committed to each other, had children, co-mingled finances, etc. I think that's a helluva lot different than sleeping with other people before you've met them. How can I be impacted by my wife's previous sexual experiences that occurred before we even met? The primary difference we had committed via marriage and she broke that commitment deliberately by having sex with someone else. Now that I've copied what you had written, the more I read it the more I think we might be being saying the same thing. 

And drifter777 I am speaking to an attorney next week. I do need to move on from this mess.


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> I speak from experience....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Through my experience, I can relate to ^^THIS^^.

I just don't have the powers of self deception to see it any other way.

Another fact I've learned through this ... they have never made enough bourbon to gargle away the taste from a sh!t sandwich.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

It's going to be different for each person that experiences it, but it seems to be thaa PA would be the ultimate betrayal of marriage. You have to ask why did you get married in the first place? You expected exclusivity of some sort and trust, right? A PA smashes all of the those expectations. I realize that financial concerns could be envolved in making you stay so that's really the only way I could see that happening.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> I mean trading up a matter or perception I guess right? Like arguably better looking on the outside but clearly uglier on the inside like you said because they are a cheat. Or in our hypothetical example, having sex with someone who has an 8" d!ck vs say maybe their husband's avg 6" incher. There's some type of cost benefit there where you can say, "I guess they assumed the sex would be better cause of size". Can't really say that with a small and impotent penis.
> 
> From what I read, most trade down. My ex traded down inside and out. It being "someone other than me" was worth the swap to her. Or they had "other qualities" that seems to be more important? Like having virtually no morals and being selfish like they are? Who knows? That's why I say the OM is a tool. They want to cheat, do they really care who it is? I don't think so as long as it's not you. They want to cheat on you so ANYONE else will do. Even a lessor man. It's a bigger slap because they slummed it JUST to get one over on you. There's no other explanation when the OM is worse in virtually every other way.


It's not about the AP being better than the spouse. It's about the AP making the cheater feel better. Everyone else might think they are trading down in partner quality, but the cheater feels like they are trading up in dopamine levels.

And sex or betrayal isn't an either or choice. The sex IS part of the betrayal. So is the lying. So is the diversion of time and money and effort. So is the complete lack of respect.

I gave reconciling half a year. It took me that long to figure out my ex had no intention of ending the lying, the sex, the diversion of time, money and effort.

It's a painful lesson to learn, and everyone has to go through it themselves, to determine what their actual limit is, not just their previously theoretical limit.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

BirdistheWord said:


> I don't quite understand this:
> Some things that helped me with the PA side of things are, is her body, not mine, she can choose to do whatever she wants with it, I do not own it , but it doesnt mean I have to stay around for it, thats my choice alone.
> Also from a purely physical standpoint, if I left her and got together with someone else they would have shared their body with someone else very likely already, so the fact she got sexual with someone else is not too far off from both of us having slept with other people before we married....but you really have to see that from a purely physical aspect only, because it absolutely does not diminish the betrayal part of it which is at the core of everything I believe, when you peel back the layers in the onion, the heart of it all is the betrayal, is not the sexual acts themselves, IMHO.​
> Sex is the betrayal in a marriage or any relationship where you've had the exclusive talk. Especially marriage, IMO, where you've formally committed to each other, had children, co-mingled finances, etc. I think that's a helluva lot different than sleeping with other people before you've met them. How can I be impacted by my wife's previous sexual experiences that occurred before we even met? The primary difference we had committed via marriage and she broke that commitment deliberately by having sex with someone else. Now that I've copied what you had written, the more I read it the more I think we might be being saying the same thing.
> ...


Well all I can tell you is my W had betrayed me plenty in her affair before it ever became a PA. For example their intimate kissing feels more painful to me than whatever sex they managed to pull off....so I see sex as the outcome of becoming intimate w someone, I don't believe they have sex with intent in their minds to specifically betray their spouse, matter of fact their spouse is the least likely thing they are even thinking about. People that get close intimately and meet up are going to have sex, is just how it goes, my problem is how could she ever get to the point where such intimacy was possible that lead to sex...
I had sex with several partners before I married, maybe that's why too, I know how lame sex can be when it's someone you don't know too well, married sex has no comparison in my mind, it's a whole other level.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

CantBelieveThis said:


> married sex has no comparison in my mind, it's a whole other level.


I agree...once you know how your old lady wants to be banged...some can compete but most will fail.

But that's just me.

At the end of the day my old lady didn't have the balls to tell me whats what and continued to blow smoke up my @ss when she was phucking around....

Now I got nothing against sl6ts but I'll take an honest one over and dishonest one any day.

So in my book it was the phucking betrayal!!!!!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Granted if she was honest I would have told her to pound sand...hell I don't even loan my tools out....I sure as hell ain't sharing my old lady.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

CantBelieveThis said:


> my problem is how could she ever get to the point where such intimacy was possible that lead to sex...
> .


The sex was the currentcy our chicks payed for the attention...what ever intimacy they thought they had was all false....lets face it....their AP just wanted to get laid


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

the guy said:


> The sex was the currency our chicks payed for the attention...what ever intimacy they thought they had was all false....lets face it....their AP just wanted to get laid


I used to echo this sentiment but over time I have come to feel like it down plays the WS's involvement. That she ONLY had sex with AP to keep them on the hook. Plenty of woman keep male "orbiters" around for attention that they have no intention of EVER sleeping with. It's fairly easy to fish for compliments as a woman and offer nothing in return but the illusion of the male having a chance. In affair scenarios, the reality is most of these women are the aggressors. 

The truth is they have become SO turned off by their husbands and at the same time (despite what you may believe) still have their sex drives rearing to go. When they check out even your touch repulses them so they seek another outlet. That's why I infer when I read another LD spouse post is 9/10 they are not LD. They are just LD WITH YOU.

So they orchestrate the affair because they are horny and want to have orgasms with someone they are not repulsed by. They go out of their way to drop ever boundary to make it happen. I've see it first had. It's a tough pill to swallow because of ego but once you put your pride aside, you come to realize how much of a sloot your "innocent" wife REALLY is. In her youth, I assure you most women are FAR from innocent.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I don't there is a single truth about why a WS leaves the marriage and there isn't a single set of personality traits that go along with this behavior.

I'm inclined to believe each BS's impressions of their WS and they are varied.

While there are certainly patterns we humans follow when we deceive those around us - which is why the "standard evidence" posts seem to work so well to detect the deception - I don't believe the motivations, thoughts, values, personal orientation, etc can be inferred or presumed just because they became a WS.

To assume and promote the idea that "they're all just selfish" or "they're all slvts" does the BS a real disservice because it allows them to ignore their own weaknesses and personal faults. I'm not saying it's the BS's fault... but I'm also not saying it's ALL the WS's fault.

Of course it's easy for me to make these observations - and that's all they are based on reading your threads - because I'm not among the BS. In your shoes I'd probably simplify things in my mind and try to reconcile the pain with those types of neat, tidy conclusions.

But this is a good thread topic to think about if it allows for introspection.

Reading both the failed marriages and the successful paths toward R, I wonder if it's neither the PA or the betrayal - but rather the underlying story and reasons. The most bitter here seem to say loud and clear that their WS abandoned them emotionally, ground their love into the ground, and pursued the OM. Yeah - that set of facts paints a vivid picture. Others describe a WS who was weakened, vulnerable, uncertain... a very different scenario and those threads are long and painful as the BS works through the "why" and "how long" and "could I have stopped it" angst. Those guys really have my sympathy because it's never clear - often even to the WS - what the real motivations were.

This forum really exposes our struggles, fears, weaknesses, longings, and hopes that we all have just under the surface. When things are going well we feel strong and in control... maybe even in denial... when our stable world view is exposed as a lie, it undermines everything.

I doubt infidelity is much different from illness and death in its impact on a marriage and on emotional turmoil that results. Since we're all likely to encounter illness and death of our loved ones (or inflict it upon then) it's probably not a bad idea to think about your own world view and what you are contributing to - or taking from - the lives of others.

Sorry if that's a thread jack... I'm not really sure myself.


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## Emmi (Dec 11, 2015)

I agree with everything you said, except that I believe it is all the WS fault, yes the BS may have faults and downsides that contributed to the failure of the marriage, but they did not choose to cheat or leave, maybe they even worked and tried to make things better, but failed due to miscommunication caused by the WS. That's what happened to me, my husband withdrew from me emotionally, and all the things I did wrong before he cheated were a result of how he treated me, and how he neglected to meet any of my emotional needs. So I had no choice but to focus on my own happiness, he was a dead end and through that experience I learned to be responsible for my own happiness without depending on him. 

Trust me I went through that long and painful process of finding my faults and blaming myself for what he did. It took a long time before we together realised that all the problems started with him, the moment he lost his job he stated resenting me and treating me badly, all I did was emotionally protect myself from him. 

My husband definitely was vulnerable, weakened and doubting. I don't believe any WS do what they do out of malice, but no matter their circumstance the choice to betray their spouse in the worst way is still fully on them. 

When you look back at the whole history and see the big picture it becomes even harder to separate the physical from the betrayal. In my husbands case the betrayal started unconsciously, he would spend time chatting with her on fb, and neither of us thought any thing of it. He told me who he was speaking with and I had no reason to believe anything bad could come off it. Of course I didn't now he sometimes used her as an outlet for the things he resented about me, he thought he was protecting me when he should have communicated with me instead. By the time he cheated he was so far out of our marriage that he didn't even consider it cheating, only problem was he never told me we had a problem and anytime I asked he said it was depression and not related to our relationship. He told me I was the only good thing in his life. Which was both the truth and a lie. A lie because he wanted to believe that but didn't feel that way, and the truth because I really was... So how do you separate the betrayal from the physical here? When did the betrayal even start? Sorry if I totally went OT here, this thread just really got me thinking, and I guess once I started typing it opened the floodgates.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Emmi, your story sounds like mine in many ways.

We both failed to communicate our needs to each other. And thought we were protecting each other.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

BetrayedDad said:


> you come to realize how much of a sloot your "innocent" wife REALLY is. In her youth, I assure you most women are FAR from innocent.


Thanks for the in sight.

To bad I have a thing for biker chicks.....innocent was the furthest thing I was looking for and it bit me in the @ss!

You make "sloot" look like a bad thing?

But again thanks for the reassurance....god help me if I ever thought my chicks was innocent...call me lazy but always was up for quick phuck with an easy chick.....The trick is finding an easy chick that can be honest.

I'm wired different then most....I mean is it to much to ask to have a honest "sloot" ?

So getting back to point....phuck ya it was the betrayal!!!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Emmi said:


> I didn't now he sometimes used her as an outlet for the things he resented about me, he thought he was protecting me when he should have communicated with me .


The killer here is the "resentment"
A spouse starts spouting off about how phucked up their spouse is then all of the sudden some chick your old man is talking to thinks she can do better then his wife. "PHUCK HER!!!

The way I see it your old man didn't have the balls to piss you off by telling you what pissed him off....instead he broke the #1 rule and told someone else.

Resentment is the #1 killer of marriages. Your better off telling it like it is and it's up to *both* of you to shyt and get off the pot.

The reality is most folks just don't have the tools to work shyt out and all of the sudden a spouse resents their other spouse for farting under the covers then all of the sudden some stranger walks up with that new car smell and bamb "ILYBNILWY!!!

I think the betrayal starts when the wayward can't tell the betrayed they have a problem and *choose* to tell someone else.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

the guy said:


> The trick is finding an easy chick that can be honest.
> 
> I'm wired different then most....I mean is it to much to ask to have a honest "sloot" ?


It kind of is a lot actually. That's my point...

Are they out there? Absolutely, but they are exceptionally rare. It's a numbers game and for what you're into it's far too easy to strike out.

If she's will to bed many men, then theirs obviously an appeal of variety to her and monogamy doesn't really hold a lot of draw because it is counter to that.

The same scenario goes to women who chase after the "bad boys" who have a revolving door of women. Some walk the straight and narrow, more do not.


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## NewPhoenix5 (Dec 4, 2015)

Well, I lost about 14 lbs when I discovered my wife was having an EA.

Many months later I lost 12 lbs when I discovered my wife had taken it underground and had a PA.

In both instances, I still was not giving up on my marriage.

BUT, after a second polygraph, I discovered that she continued the affair as we were in MC and I was in IC, suffering from the affects of her affair... well that took it to a new level.

What still astonishes me to this day is that she saw the damage she was doing to me. She saw me writhing in anguish from her continued contact with him. AND SHE KEPT IT UP. She did not stop.

This was torture. And, I do believe, it was giving her a high to see me writhe in pain that she was cheating on me. She saw and felt my hurt that she wasn't all mine. She felt wanted by my pain and felt somehow heightened by my tears. I wanted her to be true and be only mine. She saw that and saw my pain and she chose to continue to f*ck the other man. 

It must have been validating to see two men desire you so much. It must have been a high to see two men do the pick me dance. Oh, it must have been a rush to look your husband in the eye and tell him your going off to the other man for the day... And the husband was in the bed again with you that night. She looked me in the eyes and slid that dagger into me, and I took it because I wanted our marriage, our family, to survive so badly. To see me contort to try to save us, that must have been rich...

Now, when I do know they had sex through it all, when I see the level of cruelty and disrespect she showed me, when I see at last her true nature, I am astonished. That is what hurts me the most. That she so devalued me that she tortured me and enjoyed it.

How can I stay with such a creature? Did she get possessed by some demon or go insane for a spell? This is not the person I married twenty years ago. Is it the person I am still married to now?

Our MC tell me that she works with families where a member of the family becomes addicted. The addicted person will do the most cruel, most vile, most destructive things to get one more hit. Perhaps she was addicted to the OM's attention... perhaps. But it doesn't make it feel any better afterwards that she was pretending to console me from the devastating affects of her affair as she was f*cking him month after month.

So I guess it wasn't the EA or the PA or the lies... It was the cruelty my wife was willing to serve me to get one more high.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

How about this?

"Hey, spouse! Guess what? I disrespected you so much I had sex with someone else.

"And I know that I put you at risk of STDs, but I figured 'well, I am putting myself at risk, so why not you?'"

That's what I suspect many BS think their cheating spouse was thinking. But you know something, I think this is probably what was going through their minds:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yzwpn0VfQg

Or this piece of avant garde music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTEFKFiXSx4


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