# what is a reasonable hope or expectation?



## HD48 (Jan 14, 2017)

I would really welcome opinions as to what is reasonable for a husband to expect from his wife, or a wife from her husband within the dance of sexual intimacy? 

What I mean specifically comes from within this framework: Sexual intimacy is a subset of intimacy in general. You do not arrive at sexual intimacy apart from an already-existing friendship, where trust and integrity already exist within the marriage, and where you genuinely enjoy one another, i.e., where the framework is already in place, etc. One does not find the larger, all-encampassing intimacy through the sexual encounter, as it falls entirely short, and intimacy is not a subset of it, but rather sexual intimacy is the "smaller circle" inside the "bigger circle" of "Intimacy". Thank you for staying with me so far:wink2: 

So, in regards to sexual intimacy alone, it itself has its components which differ between the sexes. It is critical to be able to fully enjoy sexual intimacy, and to ensure that each partner is doing their very best to meet those needs for each other, speaking in their language, communicating, etc. To make a long story short, my wife and I have been separated for the better part of 2 years. The reasons do not stem from infidelity, and are equally shared. We are great friends. We are in our mid-40's. During the absence of sexual intimacy during this time, we have physically gone in different directions. I have worked very hard on my diet and exercised rigorously and regularly, and weigh the same as I did when I left high school, at 6'0", 168, and feel good about where I am. My wife has become obese. I don't even think of her as a sexual being anymore. We relate well and are coparenting our children well. I am helpful and fully financially supportive. I even provide housekeeping for her once per week, to assist in those tasks to free her up to do things for herself that she enjoys, etc. I communicate regularly with her, several times per day, and assist with carpooling, do the yard work, help with homework, everything I am able, as well as work a stressful, 50-60 hour per week job. 

So, I WANT TO DESIRE MY WIFE PHYSICALLY. A huge turn-on for me would be for her to get in shape. I am not going to control this for her or make any comments. I have in the past, and I am done. She knows it's important to me. If I, as a husband, take care of my body, is that too much to ask????? I am NOT superficial. I am NOT asking for a model. I understand aging and all of that. I get that. We ALL change. But I see so many other women who take care of their bodies, and it makes me resentful, and I don't want to be that way. Thank for reading, and for any comments.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

A few comments...

While I agree that sexual intimacy is a subset of intimacy in general, I don't think "an already-existing friendship, where trust and integrity already exist within the marriage, and where you genuinely enjoy one another, i.e., where the framework is already in place" is necessary for sexual intimacy. I can be sexually intimate with a ****buddy, prostitute or my right hand where those factors don't come into play. But, for the sake of arguments, sexual intimacy with those factors involved is much better than without.

So to your last paragraph... why? Two years separated and your wife has let herself go, which tells me she isn't of the mind to date anyone, never mind you. It sounds like she's comfortable where she is, you weren't and did something about it. But even if she did, why go back to the marriage if the underlying issues aren't addressed before one's gaining or losing weight?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

When you say your wife has become obese do you mean obese in relation to weight charts you see in gyms and on the internet or is she massively overweight as in a seventy pounds or more.I own a gym and we get sent weight charts with recommended weights for men and women and frankly they are a joke.There are Olympic swimmers who would be classed as very overweight on these charts.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I suspect being separated has made you wife comfort eat. 

Why are you apart if you get on so well?. Are you planning on getting back together? Are you working towards it by having counseling etc? Or are you just happy to live in limbo?
After all unless you are getting back together why does it matter what she does?

BTW, you are expecting her to do the same as you and be the same as you. She is her own person and if you are not even living with her I don't see why you think you have any say in her life and what she does. Not everyone places such vital importance in having to weigh exactly what they did when they left school. I think that your marriage(or lack of marriage) has far more serious issues that need sorting. Do you spend as much time sorting them out as you do in the gym?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Chris Taylor said:


> A few comments...
> 
> While I agree that sexual intimacy is a subset of intimacy in general, I don't think "an already-existing friendship, where trust and integrity already exist within the marriage, and where you genuinely enjoy one another, i.e., where the framework is already in place" is necessary for sexual intimacy. I can be sexually intimate with a ****buddy, prostitute or my right hand where those factors don't come into play. But, for the sake of arguments, sexual intimacy with those factors involved is much better than without.


Defining sexual intimacy is important. I believe OP has spoken true at least regarding his definition of sexual intimacy. Depending on how you look at sexual intimacy, you can have sex without being sexually intimate, just as you can have a conversation about the weather without being emotionally intimate, or attend church with someone without being spiritually intimate. Regardless of the type of intimacy, the word "intimate" implies a certain level of connectedness, openness and vulnerability. You can bang a prostitute without any kind of connectedness or vulnerability. Casual sex is, by its very definition, lacking in connection and, therefore intimacy, even if genitals are coming into contact. 

If OP just wanted to get his rocks off without intimacy, he could bang his wife, ejaculate, and call it a day. But he wants more than just sex, he wants genuine sexual intimacy. 

OP,
"Letting herself go" could use some clarification. Yes, she's gained weight. Do you know the how and the why of this? There are two major components here, either or both of which may be driving this. They are exercise and diet. To the first, is your wife not motivated to be active? I'm not talking about training for a marathon here, just spending some time each day not on the couch or behind a desk. There are many reasons a woman may lose motivation to move, both physical and mental. Isolating the underlying cause may be helpful. Similarly with diet, does she deliberately eat poorly or too much. Again, there are most likely underlying issues here. It's easy to use food for comfort, and when we do, it's not gonna' be kale and carrots, it's gonna' be ice cream and cheesecake.

The weight gain is most likely merely a symptom rather than the disease itself. Your age only supports this theory further. By mid forties, it gets much harder for a woman to maintain weight, and it can be easy to just give up. Moreover, women can also have a variation of a midlife crisis as they exit childbearing years, even if they have no desire for children. Thinking she is not as desirable as when she was young can be demotivating as well. Some just lose any instinct for self care. 

You say you didn't separate over infidelity, but you don't say why you did separate. Did you separate because you were already suffering a sexless marriage or did that come after? Was she gaining weight before the separation or after? If it was after, the separation may be emotionally troubling to her, even if you separated amicably. Lots going on here--to many unknowns to pin anything down yet.


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## HD48 (Jan 14, 2017)

Everyone, thank you for the comments thus far. 

Andy, by obese I mean a BMI of 31.8, 5'3", 180, and I'm very familiar with the Crossfit-type body that you are referring to by a BMI that may be considered overweight, but it is muscular. This is not my situation.

And yes, Diana, there has been much time we both have spent in counsel. Hundreds of hours.I am not a "gym rat" obsessing over my body. I have just made a decision to eat and drink well, exercise hard 3-4 days per week, and get into shape. I am truly always amazed that every single time it seems that a man even mentions "weight issues", he automatically becomes a self-centered, superficial, unreasonable person in many of the women of TAM. Once again, I am proven correct. I am beginning to believe there is not a woman alive who even wants to listen to a guy who says anything about sexual attraction being connected in some form to physical appearance, i.e., weight gain. 

We have spent the better part of two years in counseling as individuals and as a couple. There are a number of issues that existed before we even met, that go back into childhood on both of our parts, which I am not going into on this thread. Needless to say, it has made intimacy challenging, having to sort through these things. But we value marriage, and do not want to divorce, and have continued to work hard. We really have, and we've made tremendous progress. But due to the time apart, and couple that with the lack of physical attraction, I find myself in a tough place mentally. I love my wife. I love her essence. But I also want to WANT her physically, that's it. That's why I'm writing. I'm not writing for you guys to tell me to "get over it", or "you just have to love her no matter how much she weighs". The LOVE doesn't change with weight fluctuations, the desire and passion do. I want both.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

HD48 said:


> Everyone, thank you for the comments thus far.
> 
> Andy, by obese I mean a BMI of 31.8, 5'3", 180, and I'm very familiar with the Crossfit-type body that you are referring to by a BMI that may be considered overweight, but it is muscular. This is not my situation.
> 
> ...


You said that she gained weight after you separated, so my guess is that being on her own led to comfort eating. Separating rarely helps a marriage in my experience. 
You didn't have to mention that you still weigh the same as you did back then as it came across as boasting. Sort of well aren't I great. If I can do it SHE should sort of thing. 

You have 2 choices, bring it up in counseling and be honest that you dont want a wife who weighs that much, or decide whether you want to be married to her or not if she doesn't loose weight. 
We all change as we age. My husband is going bald and is grey, so what? I love him to bits. What if he looses a leg or has a bad accident and is disabled? Not going to stop me from loving him or staying with him. What if he has to take a drug that made him gain weight? I am going nowhere. 
Most people gain weight as they age, especially women with babies and hormones and the menopause. For women food is often connected to their emotions as well. They eat to feel better. 

When will you get back together? 2 years is such a long time.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Whoa, dude, if you think Diana was harsh, you ain't seen nuthin yet 

"His Needs Her Needs" is something we often bring up around here, and we are very familiar with the fact that men need sex and sexual attraction towards their wife. But it isn't a switch we can just tell you how to turn on and off. You either are attracted or you aren't. If you aren't, you have to figure out why.

Now, you say it's because she's obese. Did you know this about yourself before you met and married your wife? If so, was it discussed at all? If not, when did you find out?

Any marriage where partners don't find each other attractive are doomed to some type of failure. Whether that's just in the bedroom, or full on divorce, is obviously up to the couple. Each couple needs to figure out what's a dealbreaker. Each person does too. So you need to figure out if, should your wife not change, or in fact get even more obese, is this a dealbreaker for you?  Will your marriage dissolve? Will you still have sex with her? Will you just do it with your eyes closed and resent her for it? Do you want to stay married under those conditions?

I know what you really want - you want her to just up and decide one day that she's gonna get skinny. But you have NO control over that. None. So figure out what you can and cannot live with, and go from there. Inform her about what you decide, to be fair, but there are no guarantees here. Even if she loses weight she might gain it back in 5 or 10 or 15 years. You never know.

Alternatively, you could try and change your own attitude about it I guess. I have no clue how you would do this though. Maybe you could learn to love her curves or something somehow. I know you can't throw that switch either, but maybe you could learn to do it.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

The male brain is wired to find certain visual appearances sexually appealing. It is what it is. There is some malleability to it. When I was 18, a 40 yr old woman looked old, and the thought of sex with an old lady like that was a bit icky. Now that I'm well beyond 40, I find many 40 yr old women very attractive. However, the basic attributes of attractiveness don't change.

I find that when I get to know a woman better, her sexual desirability can move up or down a few notches. Her basic appearance initially hits a certain mark. Then, her personality and other attributes can modify it from that baseline.

That's a long way around to saying that I don't think you can will yourself to find your wife sexually attractive once her appearance moves outside of your pre-wired range. In addition, you may be seeing a personality or character aspect which further degrades her sexual attractiveness to you. Her lack of interest in physical fitness and health might take her down even further.

Something I've noticed, too, is that men seem to not really notice the aging of their wife. Not that we don't see it, but we are biased to view them as they were when we first were dating them. Probably some kind of psychological thing, maybe evolutionarily advantageous, idk. As long as your wife stays within some range of appearance similar to how she was before, you still "see" her as younger and attractive. But if she has changed dramatically then your brain may "see" her more objectively. So now you see the weight and the age, which is less attractive.

I think you're a normal male with normal wiring.

There isn't much you can do to change your attraction to her when she has changed so dramatically.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

HD48 said:


> my wife and I have been separated for the better part of 2 years.
> 
> I don't even think of her as a sexual being anymore.
> 
> I WANT TO DESIRE MY WIFE PHYSICALLY.


I condensed your original post to the few lines that stuck out and caused an impression on me. 

To me it sounds as if you are unable to accept and love your wife for who she is as a person. If your desire is fueled by the notion that you want your wife to "change" into something you deserve, then it is NOT your wife that you desire.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I have a fetish for trim body shape. I knew it when I was in grade school. I told my wife about it soon after meeting her. She never mentioned she had a thing about a full head of hair, and I dared to go bald.

There was no way I was going to fix it, but one day I had her sit through a film of a hair plug operation. Then I shaved my head, and my wife never mentioned my hair again.

So did you mention that fetish about weight to your wife before you got married?

I have that fetish, and I have no idea how much my wife weighs, or what her Body Mass Index might be. All I know is how silky smooth her skin is under my hands.

Look at it this way, your wife probably knows your preference, and is telling you to buzz off, mister.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
I understand your position exactly. I have certain "requirements" that I need in a partner. I told my wife before we wed that I would not allow myself to become obese and I would not be with someone who would. To me weight gain bespeaks much more than superficial characteristics. It shows lack of self control, self respect and self admiration not to mention what it implies about ones lack of concern for their own health. I do not find these characteristics to be in any way superficial.

I am not unrealistic about these requirements and do not expect my wife to maintain the 119 lb frame she had on our wedding day. Aging causes changes in metabolic function and motivation which can reduce one's drive to exercise. However, if she reached 180 lbs. I would be looking for another mate. I could no more find that attractive than I could a woman who was hygienically deficient, in fact I find the two to be closely tied together.

Your only real option is to explain this to her and to explain that you cannot find her attractive physically at her current weight. It will either serve to motivate her to change or it will not in which case you will have to make the change.

For the record I had a very high metabolism when I was young and I consumed massive amounts of food but because I burned so many calories, I never gained weight. Now however, my metabolic rate has decreased significantly and I now consume less than a third of what I used to. I am hungry for probably 12-13 hrs. out of every 15-16 hour day. It is the price I must pay to remain at an acceptable weight. It can be done and I expect no less out of myself than I do my mate.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Female here. I get it. I do. Everyone has their preferred body type. Feeling physical attraction outside of that range is rare. Have you explicitly stated your problem to your wife? If not, would you consider doing it with the guidance of a therapist?


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## HD48 (Jan 14, 2017)

My wife was 115-120lbs when we married. My "arousal template" within my brain is definitely wired for height and weight proportionality. The issue has been discussed several times, and in a safe, counselor setting. Thanks everyone for the input. It is what it is I suppose.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

A "reasonable" hope or expectation is whatever is acceptable to you. You obviously have an acceptable standard for yourself, but your wife is not living up to that same standard. I get that. But the reality is that there is nothing you can do about it, outside of discussing it with her. If she decides to get back in shape that will be her choice. On the other hand if she is OK at where she is at but that is not acceptable to you then you have to make a choice.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> I have a fetish for trim body shape. I knew it when I was in grade school. I told my wife about it soon after meeting her. She never mentioned she had a thing about a full head of hair, and I dared to go bald.
> 
> There was no way I was going to fix it, but one day I had her sit through a film of a hair plug operation. Then I shaved my head, and my wife never mentioned my hair again.
> 
> ...


So if your wife had to go onto medication that made her put on weight, you would do what? I honestly love my husband no matter what happens. The thought of leaving someone because their appearance has changes appalls me. We ALL change as we age, in so many different ways. We get wrinkles, go grey, often gain weight, go bald, things sag etc etc.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

HD48 said:


> So, I WANT TO DESIRE MY WIFE PHYSICALLY. A huge turn-on for me would be for her to get in shape. I am not going to control this for her or make any comments. I have in the past, and I am done. She knows it's important to me. If I, as a husband, take care of my body, is that too much to ask????? I am NOT superficial. I am NOT asking for a model. I understand aging and all of that. I get that. We ALL change. But I see so many other women who take care of their bodies, and it makes me resentful, and I don't want to be that way. Thank for reading, and for any comments.


Totally reasonable to expect your wife to work to stay physically attractive to you, knowing that physical attractiveness is a top need for you. There's no shame in that! 

Diana makes a good point too- that your wife gained a lot of weight AFTER you two separated. This leads me to believe that she has become either depressed or overwhelmed trying to make time for herself and working out without you around. I have a biweekly cleaning service and that did nothing to ensure my workouts when I was taking care of little ones. If my husband were working 60 hours a week and living elsewhere, and we had little kids, my health might suffer too. That often manifests outwardly (weight gain, etc.). 

Fortunately, you are in an excellent position to lead your wife back to health. You've done it yourself, so you have lots of knowledge in how to get in shape and live a healthy lifestyle. Plus, working out together is a great way to connect with your wife and rebuild the marriage. 

You've gotta be a leader here. Plan fun workouts you two can do together. Set up childcare or join a gym with a clean, reputable childcare service. Pick her up and take her 5xs a week. Help her meal prep after. Stock the house with healthy foods.

I've noticed it is FAR easier for men to take the gym/exercise time they need and put together quick healthy meals for themselves than it is for women to leave their kids in the evenings to get to the gym and face coming home to cook a meal for the entire family on their own.

If you want it from her, you've gotta be a help to her, and realize that moms with kids living separately from their husbands are often overwhelmed. If the kids still need childcare, find a way to make that happen for her. That's a MAJOR obstacle you likely don't have to face while you're getting in shape yourself.


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## HD48 (Jan 14, 2017)

Jessica, great points:smile2:


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

She's not interested in attracting you or any other man. 
The separated woman who is looking to land her man (or her new man) is going to be making active efforts in her appearance to up her game. 

At 5'3 and 180lbs she is fat and unhealthy, and unattractive to you and most other men. She knows this.

After two years of a separation, what are you looking for? She isn't ever going to be the woman who makes the effort in her appearance for you. 


How old is she? At this point she's probably entering the phase in her life which her weight will over time incur further health issues.

It's been two years, buddy. Make her not your problem anymore.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Sexual intimacy is a subset of love. If you love someone, it should not matter what they look like. My wife is 65 and a far cry away from looking like she used to look. Yet, we are still very sexually intimate. I also do not concur with your logic about what constitutes sexual intimacy. It sounds like you are trying to justify your feelings about your wife. If you need looks to be sexual intimate with someone you love, you are in for a hard time when you grow old. Instead of making someone feel bad about themselves, you should make them feel comfortable with themselves. A lot of times obesity is very difficult to get rid of. Look at identical twins that are both obese. It is not a coincidence that both weight around the same. It is genetic. I know that when my wife was nagging me about losing weight and told me that she was not attracted to me anymore, I just ate more. It was not until we had a serious talk and told her that she is not in great shape either and that when I look at her, I see the woman I love and the girl I fell in love with. Looks do not determine my love and with love comes sex. Without sex, you just have a friendship since you do not get the benefit of the hormone Oxytocin which emotionally bonds the couple together. 

I have been sexually intimate with girls I only dated for a few weeks. You are redefining intimacy to suit yourself. Intimate does not mean what you say it does. It means:

1. closely acquainted; familiar, close. "intimate friends" synonyms: close, bosom, dear, cherished, faithful, devoted, fast, firm, familiar; 

2. private and personal. "going into intimate details of his sexual encounters". synonyms: personal, private, confidential, secret; 

I have experienced sexual intimacy as properly defined for short durations of time, and without loving my partner or having a larger bubble of intimacy or however you define it. I was sexually intimate with an ex-girlfriend who lived with me for a year and yet we did not love each other. She even asked me to impregnate her. That is how intimate we were. She was also overweight and started having sex with every guy she met to validate that she was still desirable. Things like that and separation, are a result of not feeling good about yourself.


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## Rooster2015 (Jun 12, 2015)

HD48 said:


> I would really welcome opinions as to what is reasonable for a husband to expect from his wife, or a wife from her husband within the dance of sexual intimacy?
> 
> What I mean specifically comes from within this framework: Sexual intimacy is a subset of intimacy in general. You do not arrive at sexual intimacy apart from an already-existing friendship, where trust and integrity already exist within the marriage, and where you genuinely enjoy one another, i.e., where the framework is already in place, etc. One does not find the larger, all-encampassing intimacy through the sexual encounter, as it falls entirely short, and intimacy is not a subset of it, but rather sexual intimacy is the "smaller circle" inside the "bigger circle" of "Intimacy". Thank you for staying with me so far:wink2:
> 
> ...


Ok I've been where you are now. My first wife packed on the pounds and wouldn't take it off. Sex stopped. To make a long story short we divorced. But what I learned was this. If she does not make losing weight a priority in her life you wanting her to lose it won't matter. She has to want it on her own.


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## HD48 (Jan 14, 2017)

Vinnydee, with all due respect, and everyone is different, entitled to post, and entitled to their opinion, but I really don't think you're an authority on "intimacy". I am talking about monogamy-type intimacy, not your definitions. Your experience is from another planet...

Originally Posted by Vinnydee....

I told my wife a long time ago that if she no longer wanted to have sex, I assume that it means that I can find it elsewhere because if she loved me, she would not expect me to do without a man's basic need. That did the trick for us and after that my wife did anything I suggested and even got into group sex and threesomes with her friends and me. What she did about our differing libidos was to set me up with her best friend. Yes I know it sounds like a fantasy but she did exactly that. Keep in mind that we had threesomes a few times already so she was not going from zero to hundred miles an hour in a flash. I did have sex with her girlfriend and then got my wife to join us. Long story short, my wife discovered she is bi as is her best friend. Her girlfriend moved in with us and was in our life for 30 of our 44 years of marriage. My wife was glad to have another women to handle my high libido and fetishes. She never got jealous. She said that she knew that I would never leave her for our girlfriend. She was right because our girlfriend was a great girlfriend but would not make the kind of wife I would like.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

HD48 said:


> Vinnydee, with all due respect, and everyone is different, entitled to post, and entitled to their opinion, but I really don't think you're an authority on "intimacy". I am talking about monogamy-type intimacy, not your definitions. Your experience is from another planet...
> 
> Originally Posted by Vinnydee....
> 
> I told my wife a long time ago that if she no longer wanted to have sex, I assume that it means that I can find it elsewhere because if she loved me, she would not expect me to do without a man's basic need. That did the trick for us and after that my wife did anything I suggested and even got into group sex and threesomes with her friends and me. What she did about our differing libidos was to set me up with her best friend. Yes I know it sounds like a fantasy but she did exactly that. Keep in mind that we had threesomes a few times already so she was not going from zero to hundred miles an hour in a flash. I did have sex with her girlfriend and then got my wife to join us. Long story short, my wife discovered she is bi as is her best friend. Her girlfriend moved in with us and was in our life for 30 of our 44 years of marriage. My wife was glad to have another women to handle my high libido and fetishes. She never got jealous. She said that she knew that I would never leave her for our girlfriend. She was right because our girlfriend was a great girlfriend but would not make the kind of wife I would like.


I agree, threatening your wife and bringing others into the marriage isn't intimacy, its adultery. Intimacy is for the husband and wife.


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