# Vegan diet for erectile dysfunction



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Eat yourself impotent. - 30 Bananas a Day!

I found this on a vegan site. You may be able to avoid ED with a change in diet.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

That's only if you buy the meme that _fat_ is the problem that so many are claiming.

We've been saying fat is bad and carbohydrate is good for decades now. And it's been rewarded with ever climbing rates of obesity, diabetes, and heart disease.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Reducing cholesterol and plaque buildup in the blood vessels is a great way of increasing blood flow to any number of places in your body...brain, stomach, hands, feet, and of course, the nether-regions. You don't have to go full out, even partial is going to make a difference. You'll also notice your grocery bill declines with eating whole foods from scratch and less meat and dairy. Don't be the kind of vegan who eats bread and peanut butter ;-)


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Are you a vegan, HNU?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> That's only if you buy the meme that _fat_ is the problem that so many are claiming.


The doctors in the study said that their patients were able to achieve erection just from a change to a low-fat vegan diet. The participants did not have to "believe in it" for it to work. When they just did it, it worked.

It's cheaper than Viagra, right?


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

jld said:


> Are you a vegan, HNU?


I was a strict vegan for several months beginning last December. My cholesterol levels had been a bit above the recommended range although otherwise I was healthy. But I wanted to see if a vegan diet would help with avoiding cold hands and feet in winter, and improve my (subjective) brain function after hypoxic brain trauma I had a few years ago. I also take a medicine for that brain trauma that is known to cause high cholesterol, so thought even though I'm taking it at a very low dose, maybe I should try to counteract that effect as best I could.

Within 10 days, the results were dramatic. I stayed vegan until late June when I went to Mongolia. While it's easy to eat vegan in the capital city, due to the huge Buddhist revival there, when you go to the countryside, not so. 

Now I eat butter in moderation, cheese and eggs also in moderation and every once in a great while some "meat" like bacon. I have pork on my grocery list this week because I want to make Chinese pork roast. I also eat fish such as wild caught haddock or wild caught salmon, but not that often. Maybe once a month. I think not being a strict vegan and using moderation is better to avoid all the soy products people can get as substitute foods. Eating that much soy is disgusting and not really healthy for your endocrine system. When we have tofu it's usually mixed in with vegetables in Chinese dumplings.

I have a crock pot which makes it easier to eat beans and dried legumes. I make black bean burgers and chick pea burgers from scratch, love lima beans, and chick pea curry, white bean stew, black bean soup, etc. Also I like nuts but I don't tend to keep them in the house because I need to learn some self-restraint when it comes to cashews. 

I don't have a weight problem, so going vegan for me was not for weight. Actually my weight problem was keeping weight on, not losing it. I noticed on the near-vegan diet I don't have a problem keeping weight on, and I also don't have to eat all the time due to hunger. I think the fatty foods just went right through my system and nothing got absorbed. Even when I buy that pork it will be a lean cut, and not a lot, maybe a pound for us, and it will go for several meals.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You sound like a neat gal, HNU. Thank you so much for sharing your experience!


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

jld said:


> You sound like a neat gal, HNU. Thank you so much for sharing your experience!


Thanks, I can be, usually. 
You're welcome. I hope it works out for you.
It's a low cost low risk way to see if you can get the benefits you want without messing around with Rx. 
I also avoid heavy exercise. I like moderate exercise. I think with heavy exercise the body will shut down circulation service to non-essential bits and pieces, in favor of keeping heart, lungs, brain oxygenated. Also triggers the adrenaline system, which shuts down reproductive functioning and has all kinds of endocrine/hormonal consequences? 

A good sleep schedule also helps a lot, with almost any kind of condition. There is so much that goes on during 8 hours of sleep that's healthy, it's best not to skip it or skimp on it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

We became vegans in 1996, but added in dairy and eggs when we moved to France in 1999.

I did not get back to vegan until 2009, when I had a health scare and knew what I needed to do. I am strict now.

Nice to hear a vegan-tolerant voice here, HNU. And so interesting to hear your views.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

jld said:


> The doctors in the study said that their patients were able to achieve erection just from a change to a low-fat vegan diet. The participants did not have to "believe in it" for it to work. When they just did it, it worked.
> 
> It's cheaper than Viagra, right?


They're also wussy skinny men that aren't going to spin a woman's crank in bed....


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> They're also wussy skinny men that aren't going to spin a woman's crank in bed....


Hey! My dh is a 6'2" 200 lb 46 yo mostly-vegan! And erections are never a problem!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well... My wife is vegetarian mostly, sleeps 8 hours a day, and desire wise she is in the pits... A lot if good that has done. I eat everything, sleep 6 hours a day, no ED issues.

Keep in mind that in the USA at least the quality of affordable vegetables ranges from awful to horrible. There are farmer markets in the summer and stores like Whole Foods nationwide but the cost can be prohibitive if you're on a budget. In larger cities you may find an ethnic grocery store for better prices.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

I am vegetarian (not vegan, and not sure if/when I will make the switch to vegan anyway). I sleep no more than 8 hours each day, and desire? It's gone up, rather than down. Could be because I'm in my late thirties, could be because of diet...could also be a combination of the two. My husband 
's desire has increased since meat has (mostly) been cut out. Basically, he will have beef or poultry on very rare occasions, but no meat purchased/prepared in the house. Kids have meat at school, for lunch. Even when we did eat meat, we never had pork, shellfish, and certain others. 

As for the comment about vegans being wussy skinny men... sorry, I disagree. I know plenty of vegan men who do NOT fit that description. Lean? Yes. Wusses? Absolutely not. LOL


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Well... My wife is vegetarian mostly, sleeps 8 hours a day, and desire wise she is in the pits... A lot if good that has done. I eat everything, sleep 6 hours a day, no ED issues.
> 
> Keep in mind that in the USA at least the quality of affordable vegetables ranges from awful to horrible. There are farmer markets in the summer and stores like Whole Foods nationwide but the cost can be prohibitive if you're on a budget. In larger cities you may find an ethnic grocery store for better prices.


We follow a starch-based diet with the addition of fruits and vegetables. Keeps the costs down. Think Asian diets.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

jld said:


> The doctors in the study said that their patients were able to achieve erection just from a change to a low-fat vegan diet. The participants did not have to "believe in it" for it to work. When they just did it, it worked.
> 
> It's cheaper than Viagra, right?


What study are you talking about? The only study referenced at the link you provided was one relating to impotence in Type II Diabetic patients who were not yet showing signs of heart disease which they eventually will if they fail to get rid of the carbs and get regulated.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

john117 said:


> Well... My wife is vegetarian mostly, sleeps 8 hours a day, and desire wise she is in the pits... A lot if good that has done. I eat everything, sleep 6 hours a day, no ED issues.


Saturated fats are required to make steroid hormones, mainly test, which regulates sexual desire.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> What study are you talking about? The only study referenced at the link you provided was one relating to impotence in Type II Diabetic patients who were not yet showing signs of heart disease which they eventually will if they fail to get rid of the carbs and get regulated.


You feel like eating a low-fat vegan diet will not improve erectile dysfunction?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

jld said:


> You feel like eating a low-fat vegan diet will not improve erectile dysfunction?


I have seen no published evidence that it might, but there are lots of things I've never seen. Erections are driven by a few things, primarily blood flow and sex drive (pituitary α-MSH and testosterone) IIRC, and a nice intact prostatic plexus.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> I have seen no published evidence that it might, but there are lots of things I've never seen. Erections are driven by a few things, primarily blood flow and sex drive (pituitary α-MSH and testosterone) IIRC, and a nice intact prostatic plexus.


Wow, you know a lot. I just remembered reading on some vegan boards about how if a man has ED, changing to a vegan diet can bring back his erections. And since there is a lot of talk about ED around here, I just thought I would throw that out there.

It's just cheaper than Viagra, I thought.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well, rabbits are vegan and it seems to work for them :rofl:

I suspect a healthier diet could help address systemic issues that could contribute to ED like diabetes, blood pressure, etc.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

jld said:


> Wow, you know a lot. I just remembered reading on some vegan boards about how if a man has ED, changing to a vegan diet can bring back his erections. And since there is a lot of talk about ED around here, I just thought I would throw that out there.
> 
> It's just cheaper than Viagra, I thought.


Anecdotal evidence is not without value, but it would be nice if McDougall, Ornish, and that lot would set up a double blind study to demonstrate some of their claims.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

john117 said:


> Well, rabbits are vegan and it seems to work for them :rofl:
> 
> I suspect a healthier diet could help address systemic issues that could contribute to ED like diabetes, blood pressure, etc.


The elimination of processed grains and sugars does exactly that.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

jld said:


> We follow a starch-based diet with the addition of fruits and vegetables. Keeps the costs down. Think Asian diets.


Got a point there. Lots of people in India and China. Big families.

Until very recently, not a lot of animal protein in their diets - apart from Organs (i.e. not muscle-meat, but eyeballs, tongue, liver, intestine etc)

This is also true of England until after WW2.

An old woman I used to talk to at church, in her 90's at the time, told me she remembers the days before electrics, when they all lived in one room, worked six days a week and when every vegetable, grain and bit of animal just went into one big pot over a fire. Hardly ever had _meat_ - _apart from_, as I say, stuff people won't touch nowadays, such as Pig's cheek, kidneys, liver etc.

I try to incorporate these 'nasty' cheap meats into my diet - but tripe (stomach), unprocessed cow's tongue and pig's cheek are now hard to get since they closed the market. Never felt better since I reduced the amount of 'flesh' in my diet (talking about digestion) about ten years ago. Not so much fat, lots more iron and minerals. Levels of nutrients so high, that you have to be careful of vitamin _poisoning._

In Spain they still eat all this stuff - I've eaten pigs ear with paprika, pigs trotters with chickpeas (at least weekly) and tripe in spicy tomato sauce - and the Spanish seem a lot healthier than Anglo-americans. I believe my eyes, never mind what a magazine says about health.

Is that really a co-incidence?

Not 'vegan', but 'omnivore' is the way to go. Reduce your flesh (muscle-meat) intake... Eat it all.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

80% of coronary heart disease deaths are in poor countries, many of them where not much meat is affordable. India for example has about 165.8 such deaths per 100k per year, and they only consume 5.2 kilos of meat per capita. The USA consumes 124.8 kilos per capita and has 80.5 heart disease deaths per 100k.

To spell it out, we eat 24 times the meat and have less than half the number of heart attacks.

Ancel Keyes was wrong.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Sandfly, if you want to browse an interesting forum, try the McDougall one. They have a pretty active vegan crowd over there, and they are very helpful if you have any questions.

And aren't you supposed to be studying?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> 80% of coronary heart disease deaths are in poor countries, many of them where not much meat is affordable. India for example has about 165.8 such deaths per 100k per year, and they only consume 5.2 kilos of meat per capita. The USA consumes 124.8 kilos per capita and has 80.5 heart disease deaths per 100k.
> 
> To spell it out, we eat 24 times the meat and have less than half the number of heart attacks.
> 
> Ancel Keyes was wrong.


We lived in India from 2008-2011. The people are getting fatter as the country gets richer, and they can afford to eat more animal products and processed food. Obesity and heart disease were being talked about when we were there. They are relatively new mass diseases for India, I believe.

The poor people in the countryside are still pretty thin, eating rice and lentil stew as staples. That was based on my observations driving through rural areas, anyway.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

john117 said:


> Well, rabbits are vegan and it seems to work for them :rofl:


Male lions are capable of copulating 50 times in one day.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Not many LD lions I suppose


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Male lions are capable of copulating 50 times in one day.


Well, when you have a harem, at least one of the females should be in the mood at any given time.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

jld said:


> We lived in India from 2008-2011. The people are getting fatter as the country gets richer, and they can afford to eat more animal products and processed food. Obesity and heart disease were being talked about when we were there. They are relatively new mass diseases for India, I believe.
> 
> The poor people in the countryside are still pretty thin, eating rice and lentil stew as staples. That was based on my observations driving through rural areas, anyway.


On average, Indians only eat 11.5 pounds of meat per year. I probably do that in ten days. Also, protein and fat do not, and cannot, cause obesity on their own. Carbohydrates do that. Most likely the Indians are upping their consumption of grain, sugar, and and hydrogenated vegetable oils, since animal sources are off the table for so many of them. Those three items are key to metabolic syndrome.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I think I would be much more concerned with diets that promote obesity in terms of ED. That is not to suggest eating meat leads to obesity. This is complicated issue and there are lots of factors that contribute to ED. Also lack of intake of large amounts of fats may not necessarily equate to the amount of testosterone one produces. 

We may not have the enzymatic capacity to produce certain organic nutrients (i.e., essential nutrients, like amino acids) but some like cholesterol (backbone of a number of various steroids) we can produce those through 2 carbon units, acetyl-CoA. Do we produce a critical level to support all functions associated with the many uses of cholesterol? Probably not. However, there needs to be a sense of balance in understanding this topic. High cholesterol levels are typically associated with high caloric foods. Over consumption could be a concern for obesity and that in and of itself could be a contributing but not sole factor of ED. 

However, recent evidence would suggest that the largest contributing factor of obesity (as well as coronary disease and DMII) is carbonated sugary drinks. So whether one wants to eat a vegan diet, which I am not promoting, may have less of a association impact that contributes to ED than does sugary carbonated drinks. 

JAMA Network | JAMA | Effect of Lifestyle Changes on Erectile Dysfunction in Obese Men: *A Randomized Controlled Trial


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

A vegan diet alone is not a guarantee to fight obesity. After all, French Fries are vegan (as long as they are cooked with vegetable oils) but they will not help you lose weight. However multiple studies link meat based diets to serious health issues. The reality is that you do not need meat to live, it is a luxury.
They are many overweight vegetarian Indians, but the main contributor to their weight is the wonderful ghee that they put in their food.
There is a push by one famous doctor in the US to fight simple carbohydrate food, mainly sugary drinks.While it is probably unhealthy to drink huge amounts of sodas, it does not mean that meat and dairy products are good for you.
There are many very old and very healthy people that have not eaten much meat or been raised on dairy products.
Meat is the food of the kings. Through history kings have been fat.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Duguesclin said:


> *A vegan diet alone is not a guarantee to fight obesity*. After all, French Fries are vegan (as long as they are cooked with vegetable oils) but they will not help you lose weight. However multiple studies link meat based diets to serious health issues. The reality is that you do not need meat to live, it is a luxury.
> They are many overweight vegetarian Indians, but the main contributor to their weight is the wonderful ghee that they put in their food.
> *There is a push by one famous doctor in the US to fight simple carbohydrate food, mainly sugary drinks.While it is probably unhealthy to drink huge amounts of sodas*, it does not mean that meat and dairy products are good for you.
> There are many very old and very healthy people that have not eaten much meat or been raised on dairy products.
> Meat is the food of the kings. Through history kings have been fat.


I agree that one should never assume some protection against obesity just because they are not eating meat. So thus, I would never advocate a vegan diet as a protection. I would say restricting simple sugars and any other form of empty calories goes a long way in combating obesity. 

Dairy is tricky. There is some evidence that suggest the greatest change to our gut microflora may have been with the introduction of dairy products. This very new and interesting field of study has yet to provide us with all the information we need to understand how our microflora may influence many aspects of our life.


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## Csquare (Jan 14, 2014)

Big difference between pasteurized dairy - which has had all enzymes, many vitamins (A, D, k2, b12), lactic-acid bacteria destroyed - and is one of the most allergenic foods, and RAW dairy, which some of the most prestigious hospitals in the country (including Mayo clinic) used in the 1920's to heal chronic diseases (cancer,TB, diabetes, hypertension, etc.). My daughter went on Weston A. Price diet and healed from severe rheumatoid arthritis. Cod liver oil, raw dairy, lots of butter, organ meats, wild seafood. Much of it raw. 

Machiavelli is right that these saturated animal fats are necessary for production of sex hormones, and cortisol. Omega-3 fats from wild seafoods and grassfed meats and raw dairy are anti-inflammatory, so should improve circulation to genital areas if ED is problem.

I'm still bitter from how this healing diet is almost diametrically opposite of what we were taught by USDA food pyramid. Years DD was in pain could have been avoided if we were taught correctly what nutrition researchers (Price, Pottenger, Howell) found in the early 1920's.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Csquare said:


> Big difference between pasteurized dairy - which has had all enzymes, many vitamins (A, D, k2, b12), lactic-acid bacteria destroyed - and is one of the most allergenic foods, and RAW dairy, which some of the most prestigious hospitals in the country (including Mayo clinic) used in the 1920's to heal chronic diseases (cancer,TB, diabetes, hypertension, etc.). My daughter went on Weston A. Price diet and healed from severe rheumatoid arthritis. Cod liver oil, raw dairy, lots of butter, organ meats, wild seafood. Much of it raw.
> 
> Machiavelli is right that these *saturated animal fats are necessary for production of sex hormones, and cortisol*. Omega-3 fats from wild seafoods and grassfed meats and raw dairy are anti-inflammatory, so should improve circulation to genital areas if ED is problem.
> 
> I'm still bitter from how this healing diet is almost diametrically opposite of what we were taught by USDA food pyramid. Years DD was in pain could have been avoided if we were taught correctly what nutrition researchers (Price, Pottenger, Howell) found in the early 1920's.


Kind of, so it is all based on balance of quantity of intake + what we make - what we need to make the critical concentration necessary to drive cellular function. 

In a world where calories are cheap, I would say saturated fats make less of an impact on being necessary than on a diet lower in calories (closer to a mass balance ratio). Excess, sugars can get shuffled into glycogen, but given the bulk nature of this storage and genetics, there is a ceiling amount. The rest of this pool is utilized in immediate energy and structural moieties. Levels beyond that which are not hard to attain in a cheap caloric world gets shuffled into acetyl-CoA which can then be enzymatically converted to many forms of animal fats including cholesterol (basis for many steroid hormones, sex hormones, cortisol, and aldosterone to name some very important ones). 

My argument is that in a world where calories are cheap and far too plentiful we should more concerned about obesity and thus the impact in has on cardiovascular disease as well as ED.

And, yes vegan diet as well as non-vegan diets can both lead to obesity. So I am not advocating vegan diet, but I think one needs be careful with the bigger picture. 

Our cultural evolution has outpace our biological evolution. We are too sedentary, too satiated and too sanitized to which most of the major disease or conditions (which may include ED) are mismatches.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

God, please don't make me choose between a medium-rare steak or a slab of ribs, and a hard d!ck.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

GTdad said:


> God, please don't make me choose between a medium-rare steak or a slab of ribs, and a hard d!ck.


How about this, grass-fed beef or corn-fed beef? 

That is a whole new topic in this wonderful area of non-vegan. I grew up on grass-fed and have since gone back to that. We live 5 miles away from a cattle ranch (grass-fed beef, yum )


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

My sister used to have RA, too. Actually, she probably technically still does, but is in remission -- due to a very *cheap*, very *easy* vegan diet of sweet potatoes, brown rice, and certain vegetables and fruits.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

jld said:


> My sister used to have RA, too. Actually, she probably technically still does, but is in remission -- due to a very *cheap*, very *easy* vegan diet of sweet potatoes, brown rice, and certain vegetables and fruits.


I am assuming you mean Rheumatoid arthritis? If so, this is an autoimmune disease. Exacerbation of symptoms may be related to diet, but that has not been completely elucidated as such.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

drerio, she changed her diet and the pain and stiffness went away. That is proof enough for some of us.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

jld said:


> drerio, she changed her diet and the pain and stiffness went away. That is proof enough for some of us.


As I stated above, diet may alter symptoms. Some foods tend to promote inflammation, i.e., exacerbating the symptoms, but this can be very tricky to find what works for someone may not apply across the board. But, don't mistake that for a cure. 

BTW, I am glad that her diet is helping. As with any disease condition this may not apply to how we look at diets for everyone else.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I know it is not a cure. Technically she still has it, but if she has no pain and no stiffness, it is considered in remission.

Look, I just wanted to offer a cheap and easy solution to some health problems, mainly erectile dysfunction, as it comes up so frequently on these boards. Nobody has to do it. It was just a thought.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

jld said:


> I know it is not a cure. Technically she still has it, but if she has no pain and no stiffness, it is considered in remission.
> 
> *Look, I just wanted to offer a cheap and easy solution to some health problems, mainly erectile dysfunction, as it comes up so frequently on these boards. Nobody has to do it. It was just a thought*.


I got, and not trying to put you on the spot. So, my apologies if you felt offended by any of my remarks.

I was merely suggesting that this condition, ED,is far more complicated. And, that the best research we currently have (article I posted by JAMA) suggest a stronger connection between obesity and ED than a correlation to any specific diet. 

And, again, I am very happy for your sister. RA is a really tough disease and my heart goes out to those that suffer from it. However remission of any autoimmune disease can be for various reasons. Diet, especially one that reduces inflammatory responses, can help alleviate many of the painful symptoms. I wish her many years of pain-free life. Take Care


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I'm sorry to be defensive, drerio. Thank you for your posts.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

Great posts Drerio.


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## Csquare (Jan 14, 2014)

From what I have read - thousands of hours on nutrition blogs esp. those citing pubmed sources, and anthropological studies (Traditional Masai, Kitavina, Eskimos, Okinawans - healthy population groups with no obesity, heart disease, cancer, etc.): Vegan diets are detoxifying and cleansing, but are not sustainable over long term - often leading to problems with dental decay, depression/anxiety, low libido. Vegan diets lack fat soluble vitamins (A,D, K2) which are only found in animal fats and allow for absorption of minerals such as calcium, magnesium, zinc. Vegan diets also lack B12, which is necessary for proper neurological (brain) function. The brain is 50% cholesterol - and requires cholesterol (from animal fats) in the diet. Every cell in the body is surrounded by a membrane which is composed of a lipid (FAT) bi-layer and again cannot function properly without dietary fat. All nerve bundles are surrounded by a myelin sheath (again made of fat and requiring dietary fat to maintain). Vegan diets are harmful long-term. There is not a healthy population group ever observed to have subsisted on a strictly vegan diet. Robert McGarrison studied tribes in southern India which appeared healthy eating only vegetables and grains, however, their grains were not completely free of insect parts - which is how those groups got their animal fats and proteins.

Drerio, you are right about the importance of gut microflora and microfauna in maintaining health. We are 90% microbes and 10% humans. The microbes regulate our hormones, our digestion, immune system and produce neurotransmitters for our brains. Our gut is considered to be our 2nd brain. Antibiotics, hormonal birth control, stress, medications wreak havoc on our gut ecosystem. Before refrigeration 100 years ago, people ate lacto-fermented foods (salted sour veggies, yogurt) to maintain gut health.

The most important foods to avoid for maintaining and recovering health are industrial seed oils (canola, corn, soy, safflower, sunflower) which are produced with hexane and other neurotoxins; proocessed sugar; processed grains. Also, avoid all artificial flavors, sweeteners, colors, msg, preservatives.

Eat the way our hunter-gatherer ancestors ate. As we were evolved to eat.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Csquare said:


> From what I have read - thousands of hours on nutrition blogs esp. those citing pubmed sources, and anthropological studies (Traditional Masai, Kitavina, Eskimos, Okinawans - healthy population groups with no obesity, heart disease, cancer, etc.): Vegan diets are detoxifying and cleansing, but are not sustainable over long term - often leading to problems with dental decay, depression/anxiety, low libido. Vegan diets lack fat soluble vitamins (A,D, K2) which are only found in animal fats and allow for absorption of minerals such as calcium, magnesium, zinc. Vegan diets also lack B12, which is necessary for proper neurological (brain) function. The brain is 50% cholesterol - and requires cholesterol (from animal fats) in the diet. Every cell in the body is surrounded by a membrane which is composed of a lipid (FAT) bi-layer and again cannot function properly without dietary fat. All nerve bundles are surrounded by a myelin sheath (again made of fat and requiring dietary fat to maintain). Vegan diets are harmful long-term. There is not a healthy population group ever observed to have subsisted on a strictly vegan diet. Robert McGarrison studied tribes in southern India which appeared healthy eating only vegetables and grains, however, their grains were not completely free of insect parts - which is how those groups got their animal fats and proteins.
> 
> Drerio, you are right about the importance of gut microflora and microfauna in maintaining health. We are 90% microbes and 10% humans. The microbes regulate our hormones, our digestion, immune system and produce neurotransmitters for our brains. Our gut is considered to be our 2nd brain. Antibiotics, hormonal birth control, stress, medications wreak havoc on our gut ecosystem. Before refrigeration 100 years ago, people ate lacto-fermented foods (salted sour veggies, yogurt) to maintain gut health.
> 
> ...


Insects, tubers, fruits that tasted more like carrots and the occasion carrion 

Seriously though, this is a hot topic but all experts would suggest that survival of the fittest is not a very applicable term to be used. It is more like survival of the fitter. Thus it is hard to truly assign a perfect diet to H. sapiens. Having said that, a fitter diet is not likely to include only what would be found in a vegan diet. However a true paleolithic diet would not include meats with the same fat architecture that we currently produce in our modern society. 

You obviously have taken some biology courses, but biochemistry along with cell and molecular biology would support some of your claims, however the phospholipid bilayer of cells and some of the moieties associated with this structure can be made via other measures utilizing other caloric nutrients. That is, one does not necessarily need to consume fat to make all the necessary fats. No doubt there are some essential fats for which we have no enzymatic pathway for, but many of those related to the topic may be unrelated if one is getting more than their caloric fill.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

drerio said:


> However a true paleolithic diet would not include *meats with the same fat architecture that we currently produce* in our modern society.


Ω3 v. Ω6 imbalance? As in grass fed vs. corn finished beef?


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Ω3 v. Ω6 imbalance? As in grass fed vs. corn finished beef?



Those are the current ones we are aware of, but that is part of it along with overall content. Likely Paleolithic meats had lower fat to protein ratios. 

I prefer grass-fed over corn-fed beef for suspected health benefits as well as taste. To me corn-fed beefs stink.

I do suggest, that vegan diets are probably not as beneficial as touted by some. But, I favor some level of balance.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I like the idea supporting our local ranchers that produce tasty grass-fed beef. Is it optimal for my diet? Don't know, but at 53 I am at my optimal weight and bf% along with other serum markers 

Oh, and no need for pharmaceutical induced erections


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

drerio said:


> Those are the current ones we are aware of, but that is part of it along with overall content. Likely Paleolithic meats had lower fat to protein ratios.


Not much doubt. This may or may not have been offset by the hunter gatherers tendency to go for the organ meats.



drerio said:


> I prefer grass-fed over corn-fed beef for suspected health benefits as well as taste. To me corn-fed beefs stink.


Yes. One of those things you don't notice until you make the switch. 

Much like with milk. Once you go raw you can never go back. It don't rhyme, but it's a fact.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

jld said:


> My sister used to have RA, too. Actually, she probably technically still does, but is in remission -- due to a very *cheap*, very *easy* vegan diet of sweet potatoes, brown rice, and certain vegetables and fruits.


I only had it bad in my hip joint. Too much time at the desk or behind the wheel and I could not straighten up for a while. My employees would actually laugh at me, it was so cartoonish and stereotypical. Once I cut the wheat, it cleared up and I didn't even notice until someone asked about it. Most likely it was elimination of wheat germ agglutinin, which seems to attack the joints. Wheat may be responsible for an unbelievable variety of negative autoimmune responses.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

My sister is gluten-free, too.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Here's another anecdote. Last year our son's cancer came back. He had to spend a few months in the hospital, and I requested he have a vegan diet. Pickins were slim, so dd18 spent a lot of time making his favorite vegan dishes for me to take to him at the hospital.

After he was discharged, we had to go several times a week to the hospital for bloodwork. His nurse practitioner had been pretty skeptical of our diet, and urged us to spend time with the hospital dietician. I met with her, and took her some of dd's food, which she enjoyed very much. We just had to agree to disagree on nutrition.

Well, a month or so after ds was discharged, the nurse practitioner said, somewhat hesitantly, "I just have to tell you, your son's blood protein levels are always consistently good. Yet he does not eat animal protein. I would like to know exactly what he is eating, because all of our other patients struggle with their protein levels."

All I could tell her was that I thought it was because of our low protein diet. That day ds had eaten homemade vegan banana bread for breakfast, and pasta with tomato sauce for lunch. Really unremarkable foods, and staples in his diet. Yet such good levels, and healthy blood overall.

I am not going to debate animal protein v. vegan diets with anyone. My mind was made up nearly 20 years ago. I have read too many testimonies of people clearing up their health problems with *easy, cheap* low-fat vegan diets to sway me any other way. But you may want to check out Dr. McDougall's forum if you want to learn more, or if you want a debate.

Good luck, and best wishes.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Veggie based proteins, properly cooked and of the right pedigree are very tasty. 

Tofu is much maligned in the USA but I absolutely love it. Various beans and legumes too. 

The catch is that there's a fine line between awful food and heavenly food with veggies in my experience. Try cooking one of my favorite middle eastern / south European dishes, stuffed vegetables with rice and pine nuts. With pricy farmer market veggies and cooked carefully they are awesome. With supermarket veggies and cooking while watching TV or posting to TAM... Not quite so.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

jld said:


> Here's another anecdote. Last year our son's cancer came back.


Being a cancer boy myself, I'm always on the lookout for new developments. What I'm looking into now is the ketogenic diet. Pretty interesting.



jld said:


> I am not going to debate animal protein v. vegan diets with anyone. My mind was made up nearly 20 years ago. I have read too many testimonies of people clearing up their health problems with *easy, cheap* low-fat vegan diets to sway me any other way. But you may want to check out Dr. McDougall's forum if you want to learn more, or if you want a debate.


I have also reached my dietary conclusions. I try to align my diet with the Plains Indian menu, for the most part.


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## Csquare (Jan 14, 2014)

A ketogenic diet is almost completely opposite if vegan.

Personally, if cancer became an issue in my life, I would use Dr. Nicholas Gonzalez approach. He's had good outcomes with stage 4 cancers. Raw beef liver, raw pork pancreas.

Steve Jobs might have had a better outcome following Gonzalez rather than Ornish.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Csquare said:


> A ketogenic diet is almost completely opposite if vegan.
> 
> Personally, if cancer became an issue in my life, I would use Dr. Nicholas Gonzalez approach. He's had good outcomes with stage 4 cancers. Raw beef liver, raw pork pancreas.
> 
> *Steve Jobs might have had a better outcome* following Gonzalez rather than Ornish.


Steve jobs would likely have had better outcomes if he had not consumed so many sweetened carbonated drinks in his lifetime.


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## Csquare (Jan 14, 2014)

Article on importance of pre-formed vitamin A (liver, egg yolks, cod liver oil, butter fat) for producing testosterone.

Vitamin A: The Forgotten Bodybuilding Nutrient - Weston A Price Foundation


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

Hello fellow vegan! Thank you for posting this and encouraging others to try “alternative” approaches, specifically plant-based whole food diets, to correct health issues. I appreciate your sentiments and respect your convictions. It was Hippocrates who said “let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food” and I believe (and in my own life know) that plant-based diets are healing and restorative. 

I too have been a strict vegetarian and now vegan for over 20 years (minus a brief backslide to pescatarian, which was…unfortunate to say the least. Suffered many bouts of “Neptune’s revenge” before going back to vegetarian). I’m an ethical vegan and eschew animal products in my diet, clothing, personal and household products and try to live as “cruelty free” as possible (to four-legged, finned, scaled, and feathered animals anyway…my husband has to suffer me!). So for me the health benefits are ancillary and simply a bonus; I would follow a lifestyle free of animal products even if it didn’t give me good health, a high libido, and/or a rock hard imaginary meat missile.

That being said, I did notice a marked difference in my overall health and vitality after going vegan. I don’t have to count calories and I maintain a healthy weight while eating a wonderful variety of fruits, vegetables, legumes, dried fruits, nuts, and grains. I have anywhere from 10-15 servings of fruits and vegetables a day (at least 50% is raw/uncooked) and try to limit my veggie meat alternatives because let’s face it…a lot of them are heavily processed with lots of sodium, additives, and chemicals and the once small-time veggie companies that manufactured many of them were bought out by big corporations that I don’t want to support. Although I do love tofurky hickory smoked deli slices (the “deli” is short for delicious!) and tempeh fakin’ bacon! I will have those several times a week, but the rest of the time I try to prepare more wholesome meals. I make a lot of vegetable stir-fry dishes (kale, red pepper, jalapeno, lots of garlic and ginger, and smoky five grain tempeh with brown rice is a favorite…kale yeah!), pumpkin chickpea curry, butternut squash cashew cream sauce over brown rice pasta, spinach lentil soup with potatoes, spicy black bean chili with sweet potatoes and quinoa, and so on and so forth. And it’s not hard for me to get all the nutrients I need on a vegan diet…I have two T of blackstrap molasses (calcium and iron) everyday with my steel cut oats and organic blueberries for breakfast, lots of nutritional yeast (B12) and 2 heaping T of ground flax (omega 3) mixed in with dinner, raw pepitas with organic raisins or dried mulberries (zinc and iron) for a snack and I also take vegan supplements of D3 (+sunlight!), B12, CoQ10, omega3 DHA, B complex, and calcium. And for K2 there’s natto and sauerkraut. For me, I haven’t found any ill effects from veganism but quite the opposite I’ve found only improved health, increased energy, and awesome deliciousness.

This is more anecdotal “evidence” of the positive effects of a mostly plant based diet, I know, but it bears mentioning. I do 99.9% of our shopping and 100% of our cooking, and I married an Oklahoma meat loving, beer and soda swilling country boy who since marrying me has vastly improved his gravy levels (i.e., lipid panel), reversed his high triglycerides, cholesterol, and elevated A1C to healthy ranges, and lost some excess weight simply by eating mostly vegetarian/vegan at home and cutting out soda (I only serve filtered water, tea, and fresh juices). He does still indulge in meat, cheese, and beer more often than I would like, but I’m not big on forcing my beliefs on others so I put up with the “wheels of death” he brings home even though they do kinda bother me. I swear the last pizza he ordered had so much meat on it I thought it was the Noah’s Arc of pizza and contained two of every animal on a boat made of cheese and dough!  Yet even with these “indulgences” all of his values are still in check and he’s in better health now than when he was younger. 

So I too believe that if a man is experiencing physically-based ED (as opposed to psychological), which could be attributed to an underlying medical issue related to obesity, high cholesterol, diabetes, or heart disease, then a plant-based diet certainly could help address the issue. But I understand that not everyone can or wants to make the transition to a 100% plant based diet and that’s understandable. Of course I would love it if more people went vegan, but honestly, I’m happy when people simply reduce their meat and animal product consumption and/or support small humane local dairies/farms/ranches…any reduction of animal suffering and factory farm horrors is a victory in my book. 

Anyway, thank you again for posting this topic and for encouraging a vegan lifestyle to support optimal health/sexual function; I think it’s an important issue and I appreciate your sentiments and beliefs!


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> They're also wussy skinny men that aren't going to spin a woman's crank in bed....


This fine fellow is vegan and not a skinny wuss and I'm sure he is more than capable of turning his partner's crank.










Also important to note...he's 75 years old in the last picture. Yowza!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Curse of Millhaven said:


> This fine fellow is vegan and not a skinny wuss and I'm sure he is more than capable of turning his partner's crank.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh my gosh!!!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hi, Curse! Nice to meet you!

You are doing great. And your husband is such a lucky man.

I keep a mostly vegan home. I eat vegan, but sometimes the kids will have dairy, like a cheese pizza. And I buy eggs for Easter.

I think a vegan diet solves so many health problems. There are many things we just have not dealt with because of our diet, I believe.

I loved your "gravy levels" comment.

We keep it simple, too, with whole foods. Sometimes I buy tofu brats, but otherwise soy is minimal.

So glad to meet you! Will be sending you a friend request!


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

jld said:


> Oh my gosh!!!


I know, right?! That's Jim Morris...Jim Morris (bodybuilder) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Pretty amazing. He's 78 now and still going strong. Viva la Vegetable!


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

jld said:


> Hi, Curse! Nice to meet you!
> 
> You are doing great. And your husband is such a lucky man.
> 
> ...


Nice to make your acquaintance as well! Friend request accepted! 

Yeah, veganism is second nature for me now and I don't even have to think about it. It's easy for me, but I recognize that it's a process and wasn't an overnight transition. And I agree with you about plant based-diets solving/ameliorating health issues, but "to each their own" and I realize there are many paths to the same destination and many solutions for the same problem.

And my husband is lucky in the sense that he doesn't have to cook and he seems to really love the things I make for us, but I'm sure if he had his druthers it would be all beef, all the time in his stomach. When we are apart he goes on "beef benders" and had quite the Meat Odyssey when he left California to travel cross-country on his own to Oklahoma. He actually plotted out each location he was going to stay based on what well-renowned hamburger/steak restaurants were in each city.


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