# 8 years later... still hurting...



## walkingdead (Jul 9, 2013)

I was told I should start my own thread..., and I would love some help. Unfortunately, I don't get to check-in very often throughout the day, and sometimes only once a day. I promise, if you read this and reply, I will be back as soon as I can. Thank you in advance.

This is long and digging up very old bones – I hope someone will please take the time to read and reply anyway.

In my defense, I did not find any “infidelity” websites until five YEARS after my D-Day in 2006 and even then, did not find TAM until several years after that. After obsessively reading everything I could, I NOW know that I did everything WRONG upon learning of my husband’s betrayal. And, because of that, I cannot heal.

I am writing this today for several reasons:

1.	I really, really still need confirmation from experienced TAMers that this was an AFFAIR – and I am not a psycho.

2.	A cautionary tale for newly betrayed not to get stuck in LIMBO and to utilize the very short window of opportunity between discovery and rugsweeping

3.	Seeking advice for finally putting this behind me; something I have not been able to do despite several (bad) counselors, good advice from my mom and best friend, prayer, etc.

I am married to the Prince of Rugsweepers and Gaslighters and I am his beloved Queen of Denial. 

In the beginning (2005-ish) knew something was drastically changing in him; but infidelity was not really on my radar:
•	New friends (co-workers at new job)
•	New clothes
•	Working out
•	New – lost his faith (how’s that for “Justifying”!!)
•	New desire for “keeping up with the Jones” (wanted bigger TV, Ipod) 
•	New grooming habits (shaving his head more frequently; manscaping)
•	New schedule (more late nights/weekends) at work 
•	HAPPY HOURS with coworkers for first time in 16 years (I was NOT allowed to participate – he claimed was “NETWORKING” for a better job.)
•	Perpetually angry, nitpicking, nothing up to his standards, nothing good enough.

I started suspecting someone else in Summer 2005 and progressively worsening through Fall 2005. I asked if maybe somebody at work was sparking his interest. He told me I was CRAZY, psycho, paranoid… I believed I was. I had NEVER had these suspicions before.

His married co-worker (MCOW) started a new job in March 2006 and THAT was then they had to start using texts and cell phone calls to stay in touch.

I got a version of ILYBINILWY in April 2006 for the first time in 16 years – he wanted a divorce after a stupid minor argument.
I accidentally discovered their calls May 2006 while looking at our cell phone bill to figure out WHY WE KEPT GOING OVER OUR MINUTES! 

Though, I did not like it, I stupidly took his word for it that they were “just friends.” He claimed he had “hidden” her because of my “jealousy issues” (which I do not even have!). I demand that he stop talking to her – so, I guess I didn’t really believe him.

As the months went on, I kept OBSESSIVELY thinking about all of the inconsistencies and his behavior changes… He was actually quite cruel during this period, never even pretending to care or try helping me to “heal” from his betrayal. All he ever admitted to was “hiding” a friendship with a co-worker – to avoid my jealousy.

Upon finding another Infidelity forum, I realized: 
•	He was stone cold to me after DDay because he was “in love” with **** and didn’t care that I was mortally wounded. 
•	He was stone cold to me after DDay because he wanted to be single – had convinced himself that 16yrs and 3 children no longer mattered. 
•	He was stone cold to me after DDay because he DID NOT CARE about me or the pain I was in. 

HE FELT NO REMORSE. 

All of those years, I thought his GUILT was crippling him. Now, I see that it was his ‘love’ for her (anger that I had caught on) and his lack of REMORSE. 

Several years go by, with me in a black pit of depression that is never really far from me even now, I realized that he might NEVER HAVE ACTUALLY STOPPED CONTACT WITH HER!

In early 2011, WH suddenly started acting weird about attending an annual conference in Denver in July. This was an annual work trip that he had made nearly every year since DDay – without any weirdness that I had noticed then. 

My “gut” hadn’t screamed like this for years. So, I pretended to be “her” and confirmed that his MCOW would be attending the conference. Remarkably, that thought had never crossed my mind in prior years. I tried to tell myself, there would be thousands of attendees and that he could be going and not be seeing her there. (Gaslighting myself?)

I started secretly digging in an amateurish way trying to find evidence he was going to meet her there. He hardly uses home computer any more but he disabled two key-loggers I installed (without ever mentioning them!) 

He has a smart phone with a million apps to chat, etc. (No evidence on phone bill.) His work hours are fairly regular and there have been no obvious (weak) lies – or atleast none that I have noticed. 

But... Viola! I discovered a secret hidden Facebook (under an old neighborhood nickname) with over 200 mostly female friends from high school. I didn’t know he even used FB… his other profile (with me and the kids listed) was NEVER active. 
At first he denied the account was even his. He refused to let me have access. When I pushed, he finally tried to give me his “archived history” without any “messages”. I insisted he give me those as well, but by that point, he had deleted anything incriminating. 

So, even without finding any evidence of HER, this was finally ENOUGH. I went to a lawyer and had Separation papers drawn (in my state, must be legally separated for one-year before D.) and told him to leave. We agreed to keep things amicable and were sitting in a counselor’s office to talk about how to break the news to our three boys (ages 12, 10, and 8 at the time.) Something must have “clicked” for him, because he suddenly (after signing a lease on an apartment and purchasing furniture for it) decides he wants to try to work things out. I agreed and did not put any parameters on it (stupid, I know.) but at the time, I was (stupidly) relieved.

Now, if he would *just* admit it – I know I could move on and start to repair our relationship. Not too long ago, I again demanded the “whole truth.” He swears I have it. He refuses to discuss his secret Facebook (which he deleted.) He also (after several years had passed) gave me his one and only apology – saying he didn’t realize how wrong it was (since it was just an innocent friendship) – but suddenly (after 5-ish yrs?) he knew he was ‘wrong’ and apologized.

Today, eight years later, things are most definitely “better” between us… rugsweeping does have its advantages – weekend camping trips with boys, day trips, vacations, date nights – never marred by ugly discussions.

But, my pain is keeping me from fully re-engaging my heart. Because he never admitted the TRUTH, we skipped the next step in the healing process and so, here I am. 

Thanks, again, in advance.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Wow, that is messy. 

With the FB page you can assume he was either cheating (probably with multiple women) or planning to cheat (with multiple women). *if* he has stopped and 'found the light' and is currently being faithful to you. I doubt he will ever admit to the past. You need to think of the worst possible scenario and decide that if that is past him, and he never admits to it, can you live with that?

However, if he is continuing to cheat. He has had time to get very sophisticated in hiding it. But, if you back off and 'act' like you trust him and just keep your eyes open. He will eventually make a mistake. You will find out something. But can you live like that?

Tell him to go to a counselor. Tell him to admit everything to that counselor and ask for advice. Tell him that you suspect there is more to the story than he is giving you, and you desire some closure. That you are not 'jealous' or 'crazy'. That he lied and manipulated, and needs to come clean or that wound will remain in your relationship. If he want to heal it, it needs to be broken open and cleaned. That can only happen with the truth. And that you realize that truth will hurt. But you need it. (or you don't and just to divorce now, because that's what it will come to someday anyway).


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## ReidWright (May 15, 2014)

tough one, because 8 years after the affair, all the evidence will be gone

hmm...a leopard rarely changes his spots, so maybe a little spot monitoring (var in car, better hidden keylogger, PI, etc) might turn up something more recent or him bragging to a friend about his past? If he had 200 women on facebook, that doesn't sound like a guy that can quit cold turkey.

does he have any old buddies that you suspect would be in on it? 

any other third parties, like old co workers, that would be willing to spill the beans? or at least share gossip from the old days. Cheating coworkers are always discussed at work...maybe another lady there would help you out. Sometimes even family friends want to 'keep out of it' and not mention if they saw him with another woman, etc. Ask around.

would he take a poly? probably not at this point...I guess you could make it an ultimatum, but doesn't sound like you're at that point.

if you found out 100% it was a PA would you be done with him? or do you just need confirmation to heal? if so, you might want to explain that to him. But I think he plans to take this to the grave with him.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

If after all these years you cant live with his adultery, what's to stop you from leaving now?


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

walkingdead said:


> But, my pain is keeping me from fully re-engaging my heart. Because he never admitted the TRUTH, we skipped the next step in the healing process and so, here I am.



Why dont you just assume the worst? That he had multiple affairs. Are you okay with knowing that?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

At the very least he was living a true double life. At the very worst he was having sex with many different women. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

But let me say this as clearly as I can:

*This is 100% on him.* 

You may have shrunk in denial, but who can blame you? You're not the betrayer. 

My advice:

Leave him.

Just leave. You need to decide what is best for YOU and for YOUR happiness- not his or anyone else's. If YOU don't care for YOU, your life will continue to be a mess.

So leave and give him a written ultimatum. Something like this:

_"You have chosen to betray me and disrespect all that is about me and us. Your lies have been non stop and remain even to this very day. Therefore, I am leaving you to your double life and dreamland life. Leaving you to your lies and your wh0res. I deserve so much better. I will have so much better. If, by chance, you are adamant that my life should include you, there are some unequitable steps you must take. In part, you must confess 100% to all you have done and why. You must hire a forensic I.T. and archive all FB messages, emails, texts that are possible to do so and present them to me. You will meet with a PhD psychiatrist for mental evaluation and counseling. You will take a polygraph to test if you are mentally able to be honest. And anything else I decide as time goes along. And even this will not guarantee you any part in my life- it only offers you a guarantee I will consider it. You have intentionally hurt me beyond belief. But I rejoice in the knowledge that the rest of my life will be better than ever and anything I have experienced yet. Good-by._

If he cannot do these things to your full satisfaction, then I see no hope together.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

walkingdead said:


> But, my pain is keeping me from fully re-engaging my heart. Because he never admitted the TRUTH, we skipped the next step in the healing process and so, here I am. .


Same boat here, but at 5 years out.

I don’t think you are paranoid at all. You know him best. It just feels wrong… his words, excuses, stories. They don’t line up. So, choose your reality; He cheated. That is simply what you have accepted in your heart and your reality. What drives you batty now is ‘how much’? 

By maintaining the lies. Your respect of him is poisoned. He is a liar. He is supposed to be the one to comfort you in sickness and in health; But he isn’t. Another broken vow. Essentially he dumped all over what a marriage should be and strives to be. So, like me, you are just in a complex relationship… a real marriage it is not. Staying with him means you won’t ever be at your best. That’s yet one more thing a spouse should be; They should bring out the best in you… Sounds like he brings out the worst.

The fix is so silly and easy. No idea why our spouses are so dumb. If they would just tell the truth, see and admit to us who they really are and see themselves that way, then they could work to be better people. But instead, they build a mask of what they want us to see. Might be a appealing mask at times, but like me, you know the soul behind it isn’t shiny and has fractures. A fall from grace. 

For me, it’s the absolute frustration knowing that my WW could be someone great… but sabotages herself because great people are willing to admit faults and make efforts to change. Your husband sounds like my WW. Somewhere in life they learned a horrible lesson: Faults and flaws are covered up, concealed, and hidden lest they be judged and found guilty. So they never truly learn from their mistakes and use them to grow. They learned that if they ‘get away with stuff’, there aren’t ramifications. Their life energy is spent creating the illusion they are without flaws and convincing themselves of the same. Great people accept they are flawed people and strive to overcome those flaws; They don’t deny them.


I’d separate…. That’s the route I’m working on now. I don’t hate her, don’t even think poorly of her. I just pity her because she lives that way. It destroys relationships, character, on so forth because you just can’t juggle that much all the time and it isn’t like any issues are being addressed; They simply cover them up and hope they go away on their own.


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

There is something very therapeutic about blindsiding a cheating gaslighting spouse with divorce papers. I doubt he's going to give you what you need to heal. Lawyer up and get ready to drop the bomb when you feel you've had enough. Good luck.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

It sounds like your husband is - or at the very least was - a serial cheater. Chances are very, very, high that he has had at least one affair, probably more. He may have been cheating with the same woman from 2005 right on through to 2011 when the last blow-up happened. Frankly, if you aren't monitoring his every move, he may still be cheating with her (and/or others) to this very day. 

Can you live with that?

The rugsweeping, the lies, the secret life? He's still doing all that. Even on the off chance that he's no longer actively cheating, he's still actively lying to you, actively rugsweeping and gaslighting and calling you crazy. He's still got a whole secret life that you don't get to know anything about. That you will probably never know anything about. And he will never, ever, tell you the truth about your life, about your marriage. There will always be at least one - probably several - women out there that know more about your husband and your marriage than you do.

Can you live with that?


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## walkingdead (Jul 9, 2013)

Thank you all for your responses. All very good and pretty much in line with what I have thought and expected to hear.

After all this time, the evidence is gone.

He is NOT going to ever admit anything from the past.

I need to decide if I am okay with things... which, obviously, I am not. 

If he cheated, even once, I always *thought* I would instantly kick him to the curb and move on. I guess I was (am) surprised that I still care about him. I almost typed love but when I think about what he's done, I just don't know if it is still "love". We've been together for 24 years; sometimes I think it is simply fear.

I agree with those of you who think it will ultimately end in divorce.

My biggest regret right now is that I didn't know any better at the initial D-Day, and I did not demand full confession, transparency, and EXPOSE the cheating co-worker to her husband.

Without any "proof" - I never felt I could.
And, naively, I thought that threatening to tell him would keep her away from my husband. Now, I know that was the wrong approach.

I should have gone nuclear. We may have stood a chance.
Now, after 8 years of lingering in such a sad, sad, state, our marriage will NEVER be what it was or could have been.

I will NEVER be who I was or should have been.

Cue the folks here to tell me it is MY choice (who I am)...


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

walkingdead said:


> Thank you all for your responses. All very good and pretty much in line with what I have thought and expected to hear.
> 
> After all this time, the evidence is gone.
> 
> ...


You have all the proof you need. He can deny all he wants to, but it doesn't matter. What is clear is that he lived a double life and destroyed the evidence. That, in and of itself, are the acts only of one guilty. So he has truly confessed. Of that you can state with confidence.

He is a deeply broken man.

Can he be fixed?

And, if so, do you want to give him another chance?

But to be fixed he has to start by confessing all. If he will not it is a further admission he has zero desire to be fixed.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think it's easy to beat yourself up over not handling it the "right" way. But just try to remind yourself that you did the best you could with what you knew at the time. Now that you know better, you can do better. Don't let regret that you botched it a bit earlier keep you stuck in limbo. 

My guess is that you still care about him as a person. And that you probably still love who you thought he was. There's no shame in that. But the fact is that he's not who you thought he was. He may never have been who you thought he was, who he pretended to be. That's sad and it's heartbreaking and it's just so, so, very exhausting to contemplate. Don't let contemplation of it keep you stuck in limbo. 

The fact is, that now you have to decide how you want to spend the rest of your life. If you truly want to give it one last try, you're going to have to have his cooperation - really, his leadership - in doing a great deal of work to heal yourself, him, and the marriage. You've got to figure out what he's willing to do - not say, actually do - to make your marriage emotionally safe for you. And if the answer to that is "nothing" then you've got to decide if you're willing to live in this limbo or if it's time to move on.

If you want to work on saving this, I'll recommend the book _Surviving an Affair _by Willard Harley. The phone coaching available through Marriage Builders (check their website) is also excellent, if you can afford it.

If you are just tired of it all, I would recommend that you go ahead and file for divorce as quickly as possible. Delaying it will buy you nothing but more time in limbo and eat away at your resolve even further.


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

Don't underestimate yourself. I think you get it even if you made all the classic mistakes years ago. Many betrayed spouses never come to the understanding you have. 

No, you will not ever be the person you would have been if he had been true to the marriage... you'll be even better. Years from now you, like me, will look back and see breathtaking personal growth that could not have come by any other means. Not that we would choose such a difficult path, but alas here we are. A couple decades later I still have deep scars, but I'm much stronger than I would have been. You will be too. Good luck.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

It was definitely an affair (EA at least), and there may have been more than one. The hidden FB account populated w/ a bunch of old "friends", girlfriends, etc would certainly seem to indicate that he was doing quite a bit of fishing.

You were wrong to agree to any reconciliation that didn't include a full confession of his betrayal(s), along w/ as many of the details that you felt that you needed to know. But you know this. 

To date he hasn't been held to account for anything, so how can you be sure that the betrayal isn't ongoing? Additionally, his sudden shift in attitude upon signing a lease, preparing divorce papers, etc could have been nothing more than him getting dumped by whoever he had on the line once he announced that he was in the process of divorce.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

With as much liquor that is usually served at conferences - especially on the "social nights," my money is on PA for sure. 

What kind of conference is it... Could you possibly get that VAR pen and send it with him? I would make sure to have one under the seat for sure when he gets home though, because the car will be a place he feels safe to talk.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

It seems that you have two choices


1	You find that after you weigh the pros and cons that it is better for you to stay with him and make the best of it.

2	You make a plan, work diligently at that plan, then leave him and continue to keep improving your self so that you can have a good life.

With his betrayal and refusal to open up and help, you some of the things that are special are gone forever; like great respect, great admiration, and a very high degree of trust. If you are real lucky then he may remain faithful in avoiding another betrayal but do not make decisions on the assumption that you are going to get back what you two had before he committed his betrayal.

Although it is possible that you can have a good marriage if you both diligently pursue doing the right things to get over the infidelity.


Here is my advice no matter which way you go:

*You formulate a plan for yourself so that you can get as self reliant as possible.* You must get to the point that you can live with him or without him. That does not mean that you look for revenge or allow your hurt feeling to keep you down. *You should look at life as if you are the only one that can make your life a good life.* In fact that’s pretty much true in a good or bad marriage. If your plan and your actions get you to the point that you have enough strength in your emotions and finances then you will be more secure and less vulnerable to other people devastating you. In addition, you will be more content and absent a lot of fears.


I know my advice is not very romantic but it is reality. Yet you still have some people that you can unleash your tender emotions on and those people are your children.


Get a plan that includes you building yourself up in body, mind, spirit and emotions. Even though that plan make even take 3-4 years to get you in a much stronger position you probably have at least 30-40 years of life ahead of you. Most people can transform their life big-time in 3-4 years if they diligently pursue with great perseverance.


You may not like the 3-4 year time frame but with your situation you will not get much better without that plan; in fact I would not be surprise if you got worse without the plan. *The 3-4 year plan will work for you a lot beter than the 8 years you have endured without a plan.*

In 3-4 years from now you can be a LOT better but you will have to stretch yourself.
*Your situation calls for you to be a strong woman that takes the right ACTIONS!*


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