# Husband leaving me over masturbation. Desperately need advice



## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

I desperately need advice. My husband of 24years considers masturbation a betrayal. He made me promise not to about 2 years ago. I did, I thought it was stupid, I thought he was being unreasonable and he'd never find out anyway, so I promised. Well apparently he's been 'monitoring' our bedroom. He checks how things are placed, I kinda suspected I was being spied on. He came home the other day and I'd had the day off - and I'd placed the lube back in the drawer ever so slightly differently than it had been and I was busted. He yelled and said 'we're done!'. WTH???? Done? Over that? We've never threatened the other with divorce before. I need to make it clear this is not something I do often. Maybe every few months. We have no problems in the bedroom. Our sex life is about 2-4 times a week depending on our schedules. He does seem to ask me frequently if 'that was alright?' to which I constantly reassure him. 
I'm finding it hard to believe that he's prepared to leave an otherwise good relationship of 24years over this. He's prepared to hurt our teenage children with a divorce over this. I'm hurt, depressed, furious and embarrassed. I feel betrayed about being spied on to which he says I forced him to take that action. It's my behaviour that's brought us here. 
We had a screaming fight and I suggested that he needed to talk to someone - which he refused because it's my problem. I've told him I don't want to end our relationship but I can't make his decision for him. I stayed at my mothers for a couple of days (the kids didn't suspect anything because she's been unwell). Now I'm home, and I've basically ignored the whole issue, because as far as he's concerned I'm totally in the wrong and I should be apologizing. He wants to talk tomorrow. What the hell am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to say that hasn't already been said? Why does he have such an issue with this? As far as I can tell it's a control thing and nothing else. Why do I not understand this? Is this a man thing that I'm clueless about? Advice please.


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

Your husband belongs in the 10th century. 

He serious problems, the most obvious of which is a fear of female sexuality.

He only wants you to experience sexual pleasure with him. He can't stand the idea that you could pleasure yourself without him or anyone else. This is the worst kind of control obsession there is, because it's your sexuality that he wants to control and when he can't, he gets angry.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

So, it's not me right? This whole thing is ridiculous. But what the hell am I supposed to do? Let my whole relationship go up in flames over something so ridiculous?


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Yes this is a control issue. Most men get turned on by a women masterbating. As long as your not doing it and neglecting him....he should not have an issue. If you are not turning him away...I say your good. My big guy found out I masterbate daily in the morning (I am very HD) now he likes to show up for the show...some times he helps and sometimes he just watches and drinks his coffee... ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

It is ridiculous. But it was also ridiculous to make a promise to him that you did not intend to keep. So you need to apologise for that. On the other hand you do not, in my view, need to promise never to do it again.

Do you know why he considers masturbation a betrayal? Does he masturbate?


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## Visual1 (Apr 16, 2013)

I think it ridiculous as well. I dont understand why you need to masterbate? Is your H not touching you the right way? think your H is unhappy with this marriage and trying to come up with a reason to get out of this marriage.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

I agree, and I have apologized for breaking a promise. At the time I made him promise not to masturbate either, and I stupidly thought it would make him realize that the whole deal was unfair. I assumed he did masturbate, but either he's had no problem keeping to the deal or he doesn't do it at all. I don't keep tabs, I don't spy on him so how would I know? As long as it doesn't negatively effect our bedroom activities I don't think it's any of my business. I don't know why he feels the way he does, I think it's because he's insecure and controlling. But at this point I'm so confused I just don't know. Either way, it seems to be a deal breaker to him.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ClimbingTheWalls said:


> It is ridiculous. But it was also ridiculous to make a promise to him that you did not intend to keep. So you need to apologise for that. On the other hand you do not, in my view, need to promise never to do it again.
> 
> Do you know why he considers masturbation a betrayal? Does he masturbate?


Yeah, I'd also LIKE to know if He masterbates ? 

Me & my husband missed each other in the past, because I DID ...and we never talked about it (too taboo)......and here he DIDN'T...wanting to save every orgasm for me (I never knew this -or how he felt about it)...when this finally came out in the open, we were both shocked...and I felt really bad as he always wanted more sex than me and I was wasting my thrill sometimes in the middle of the night. 

Now we both desire to save every orgasm for each other....but if one was more horny and the other not there, it's not a big deal at all...total freedom & enjoyment -we have no issues with the act. 

If you are not withholding from him and he is sexually satisfied at 
2-4 times a week.... not really getting it... 



> *juno 42 said*: *He does seem to ask me frequently if 'that was alright?' to which I constantly reassure him.*


 I think this may be the root here... he is sexually insecure for some reason... but WHY... did a previous GF enjoy doing herself over being with him.. 

Has he been religiously indoctrinated to feeling masterbation is wrong ?

Do you also initiate him..any complaints there on his end? .....If he has to ask if it was good, maybe he is questioning your desire for him.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Since May is masturbation month, you've picked a great time to have this issue.

It's a shame your husband is so sexually anxious and insecure that he is worried you may fall in love with your own hand and love your hand more than you love him. It's a shame your husband feels restricting and controlling is the best way to ensure your relationship stays strongly committed. It's a shame your husband is so easily threatened.

It sounds like he needs a LOT of HELP!


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

His actions seem extremely controlling. Was he always like this? Apparently, he associates masturbating with being unfaithful...how did he link the two together? There must be something that triggered this from his past. Also, like others have asked, does he masturbate? Do you both ever talk about this subject, aside from the promise not to do it????


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

We have a great sex life. He probably initiates 70% of the time and I only give him a 'rain check' if I'm tired, sick etc. We've been together since we were 18 and so prior relationships were just kid stuff, so no lasting damage there. It's not a religious thing. We have talked about it, but his pov is that if it hurts his feelings so much I shouldn't do it - end of discussion.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

He says he doesn't masturbate. I don't know if it's true or not.


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

Is your sexual pleasure only supposed to happen in his presence so he can control it and be responsible for it?


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

There must be something else going on for him to do this -- an affair? There has to be something else. I'm having a hard time believing this situation is even real. If I were you, I would go all nympho. Don't hide it at all, but make him watch. Don't let him control you with this. One up him. Make him beg. Tell him there are a lot of guys who would love to take you if he isn't willing, because guys go crazy over women who are horny like this.

Call his bluff.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

You know, Id kind of like to be a fly on the wall when he tells people he's leaving his wife and kids because she masturbated. Maybe you should call his bluff and inform a few well chosen friends your husband wants out because you masturbate a few times a month. "It's not like I turned him down for sex..."

He will be the laughing stock of the neighborhood!


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

OP wrote "I desperately need advice. My husband of 24years considers masturbation a betrayal. He made me promise not to about 2 years ago. I did, I thought it was stupid, I thought he was being unreasonable and he'd never find out anyway, so I promised"

Why did he ask you this ? 
What were the circumstances ?
In what context was it asked ?
What was his reasoning ? 
If you thought it was unreasonable why TF did you promise ?
He is trying control you IMO


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

Ditto on the "ridiculous". Totally normal and healthy activity. I'm going to guess he wouldn't go along with it given, what seems to be a control issue, but some MC or IC for him might help bring him out of the dark ages.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

He sounds like a nut job. My view is you tell him that you will occasionally be masturbating. Don't really get into heavy conversation further about it. Allow him to make the choice to destroy the family. Don't you leave, don't do the leg work. Don't agree to goo terms. Do as little as possible and are it as unpleasant as possible. 
Nd tell him you plan on being truthful if anyone asks why he is leaving you.


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## farside (Oct 27, 2012)

There is something else going on. I agree that counseling may be a good idea if he's willing to enter it with an open mind (which it seems like he's not). Approach him when the tempers flare down and don't make it about the masterbation.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think it is sad everyone is calling your H ridiculous. It doesn't matter what any of us thinks about this...you need to get down to the bottom of why he thinks this way and find out if it is something you can agree on or not. And that means you are going to have to be patient and loving when talking to him about it, not acting like he is ridiculous. Just set aside your judgment of him temporarily to truly try to understand where he is coming from.

What is the rest of your relationship like? How have the 24 years been? This must not be a recent thing for you two. You've been having sex for decades...where/when did the topic of masturbation come up initially? Do you watch porn together ever? Do you read erotic books? I'm imagining that you two know each other very well sexually by now, would you say that is accurate? You must know more about where this is coming from.

To share with you something, very different from your sitch but...just wanting to give you a glimpse into another relationship and how we handle this issue.

My H and I have a "no MB without permission" rule. That means, if we want to MB, we have to ask our spouse first and give them first right of refusal for sex, or for mutual MB, or just to watch.

We set up this rule specifically so that we focus all of our sexual energy toward each other, and we don't go off leaking it by MB'ing. This isn't because we see MB'ing as wrong or bad for you or bad for marriage. Instead, it is because we both want to have that pent up hot HOT sexual desire for each other. He loves how horny I am all the time, and if I take the edge off that horny-ness without him, sure it is nice and all...but it really does lessen the heat for me without doing some build up. I don't want that little outlet, because it is boring compared to HOT, crazy sex. And the reason we started this rule, was because I was the one more likely to MB and let out that bit of steam...but my H was the one who is more sexually experienced and understood that by doing so, I was actually making sex LESS GOOD for myself.

This isn't something that causes any strife in my marriage, there is no punishment and monitoring. We'd never even fight about it if one of us broke this rule. It is more like a sexy game we play. (But the results are not a game, they are great!)

I'm just sharing that with you to hopefully offer a view of another husband who isn't "ridiculous".

I hope you can work this out.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

He needs to sexually grow up and move into the 21st century.

Men and women masturbate all the time when their other half isn't in the mood because they are going crazy and need that release at that moment.

The other alternative is going out and having a PA, which would be a no no.

Or the other spouse always has sex with them whenever they are in the mood, which doesn't happen.

By you masturbating and maybe using toys isn't a betrayal. You aren't going out to have a PA. I guarantee you he's relieved himself and probably over girlie magazines or porn.

Take him to marriage counseling and get him to deal with the masturbation issue.

If my wifee, who is shaved, wanted to masturbate and I could even watch and she used the small vib........HOTNESS.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> So, it's not me right? This whole thing is ridiculous. But what the hell am I supposed to do? Let my whole relationship go up in flames over something so ridiculous?


Yes.

Or at least call his bluff. Tell him this is not negotiable, and if he's willing to end a 24 year relationship over it, the blood of your marriage will be on his (not your  ) hands.

It IS ridiculous. It's ridiculous at a level that needs to be corrected, not ignored or bowed to.

Lucky for you you're female and this wasn't about pornography, otherwise the response and advice you received would have been manifestly different.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

What happened 2 years ago?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

juno 42 said:


> So, it's not me right? This whole thing is ridiculous. But what the hell am I supposed to do? Let my whole relationship go up in flames over something so ridiculous?


Yes.

I'd treat it as if my wife threatened to divorce me because I drink Gatorade..
It's just as ridiculous.

This isn't a "male" issue, it's a control issue and your H is being beyond ridiculous.

Don't allow this level of control over you by anyone.


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## Voiceofreason (Mar 6, 2011)

If God did not intend for humans to masturbate, He would have made our arms shorter.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

I think a person's masturbation habits belong to them and them alone. They can choose to share those habits, or information about those habits, with their spouse, or not. I see it as a personal autonomy issue, period. I would no more accept my spouse telling me what I can think or believe than I would accept him dictating my masturbation habits. 

Individuals may chose to have agreements with their spouses about masturbation, but it should be understood that if an individual is no longer comfortable with the terms, they become null and void. 

Sometimes I feel like masturbating--not having sex. I should not have to ask my husband permission or even tell him. My drive for masturbation and my drive for sex with my husband is not the same. If I want to have sex, masturbation really doesn't cut it. If I feel like masturbating, I'm likely to go that route even if my husband was available for sex. Just depends on what I'm in the mood for. 

That being said, I am sure there are some situations where one partner's masturbatory habits are indicative of a larger problem. For example, I have a friend whose husband lost at least one job for whacking off to porn at his computer at work. He was always whacking off where he was bound to get caught, in fact. Excessive masturbation as a replacement for a sex life with one's spouse could be a legitimate issue for contention as well. From what you've described, however, your appetite for masturbation in no way approaches excessive or unusual. 

I agree that this is about control. However, I do think it is worthwhile exploring your husband's obsession with this. Does he try to control you in other ways? Does he allow you complete personal autonomy except in this area? Does he exhibit tendencies to control your children?

This is, in no way, a marital rift of your making. I would talk to him about it and make it clear that the option of him monitoring your masturbatory habits is off the table. Tell him you made a mistake in ceding him any control in the first place, and that you are rescinding it. You don't have to be angry when you talk to him (although personally I'd be seething), but make sure he knows that you won't be discussing this with him again without a therapist. 

Good luck--24 years is a long time to be married; I hope you can work things out if you love him, feel loved by him, and want to be with him.


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## kescalante (May 18, 2013)

My opinion is that it isn't ridiculous if he feels that strongly about it. I think that you need to figure out why he feels so strongly about it-- and if you knew that he felt so strongly about it, why do it? Wouldn't it just be easier not to do it? I guess I come from the opposite end because my husband constantly looks at porn regardless of how I feel-- he does it, knowing that if I find out I will be extremely hurt and upset.

Talk to him and find out why he feels this way, but if he isn't willing to talk then there's no room for progress. Whether it's a once a month or once every 6 month thing, I would stop masturbating until the issue is resolved and you two have found a common ground. Otherwise, he will be more hurt and have less trust next time you do it.

I have no personal problem with masturbation, but if he strongly believes that every time should be with him, then it's his belief and he may not want to change it. Then you have to decide if masturbation is worth the trouble, will you sacrifice for your loved one or is it worth leaving him? I know that he spoke of divorce first, but ultimately if he isn't wanting to change his views that will be what it comes down to.

I think he also has some bad self esteem issues in the bedroom. If he will talk about the reasons behind his feelings, that would be best. I hope everything works out and that he opens up.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Voiceofreason said:


> If God did not intend for humans to masturbate, He would have made our arms shorter.


This is what really led to the extinction of the T-Rex.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> Men and women masturbate all the time when their other half isn't in the mood because they are going crazy and need that release at that moment.
> 
> ......
> 
> I guarantee you he's relieved himself and probably over girlie magazines or porn.


While I will agree that there is an issue with the OP's husband, and she certainly needs to figure out WHY he's so opposed to masturbation...AND she shouldn't have made a promise she had no intention of keeping, the above portion of CB's quote, I disagree with. 

1. Not everyone, even when they are "going crazy and need that release" will resort to masturbation. Obviously, the vast majority will, based on the many posts on TAM. 
However, some of us choose not to do it, regardless.... and that's BOTH men AND women.

2. You can't "guarantee he's relieved himself and probably over girlie magazines and porn"... Again, there are some who stick with it when they say they don't masturbate. I can't say whether the OP's husband is telling the truth or not, obviously. But it's not inconceivable that he doesn't masturbate.


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## kescalante (May 18, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> 1. Not everyone, even when they are "going crazy and need that release" will resort to masturbation. Obviously, the vast majority will, based on the many posts on TAM.
> However, some of us choose not to do it, regardless.... and that's BOTH men AND women.


Exactly, my be TMI but I'm this way and save the moment for my husband. If I'm in the mood I tell him and there's no resentment or feeling of restriction there. And I agree about not making promises you don't intend to keep. If you think something is ridiculous then outright say it, don't pretend to go along.


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

tacoma said:


> This is what really led to the extinction of the T-Rex.


That is the funniest statement I have read in a long time!!!!!!:rofl:


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

He got you in the double-bind!

It's a control freak specialty. They put you in a situation where no matter what you do, you lose. In this case, being extremely unreasonable about masturbation. Either you fight it out with him to the death over masturbation (you lose) or you make this stupid promise, in which case you will eventually get caught and... you lose.

People are asking why he made this big deal over masturbation. The answer is because it is a double bind. Look at the self-righteous power-play he's pulling. 

What other kinds of controlling things does this guy pull? Or other guilt-trips and shaming type tactics?


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

Does he get upset if you indulge in other pleasurable activities....like eating chocolate cake? My wife is doing that right now, so that prompted my question. She seems happy, and I am ok with her doing that!

Sorry for the interruption. Please continue...


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Thanks everyone for trying to help me, giving me their opinions when I'm so lost with this whole thing. But, after a week of tension my H has decided that he is ending our relationship. He believes this will just resurface again and again and so he wants to end it once and for all. 
I've asked him to give me a week to get my head around it and then we can tell the kids. He wants me to agree to tell them this is mutual. I refused. And he says I should move in with my mother because his parents are both deceased. I refused. He wants us to be friends. I refused. I told him our kids had a right to have their parents get along, but apart from dealing with our kids that he and I would not be friends. We would not be enemies either, but I will not be agreeing to any friendship at all, just an amicable co-parent relationship. I don't want to talk to him, socialize with him or see him unless it's kid related. He seemed shocked that I would want to cut all unnecessary ties.
Anyway, that's where I am right now. I have a week to begin to process this.


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## hehasmyheart (Mar 11, 2010)

This is his issue, not yours. Is he controlling in other ways also, or is it mostly just on this one thing?

If you're having regular sex, there's no need for him to be worried about it. Tell him you're sorry for saying you never would, but it was a completely unreasonable request. People masturbate. If you had called him when the mood struck, would he have come home? Is he worried about what you might be fantasizing about? It's hard to understand this one.

Hang in there, maybe he will still figure out that it's not a betrayal.


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## totallywarped (Jan 26, 2013)

I'm not buying this at all. He's looking for a reason to leave you... could there be someone else? I am married to someone who doesn't like the idea of my masturbating (unless I'm putting on a show for him). He says I should be satisfied (we avg 4-5x a week) but he wouldn't dare say don't do it. We've developed a don't ask don't tell policy. I can't seem to get him to understand I was a LD and I saw how it was tearing us apart. Mastubating seems to have turned me into a HD. The more orgasms I have the more I want  Maybe explain it that way and see what he says? I'd hate to say it but if he would really leave over this you're better off w/o him.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> Thanks everyone for trying to help me, giving me their opinions when I'm so lost with this whole thing. But, after a week of tension my H has decided that he is ending our relationship. He believes this will just resurface again and again and so he wants to end it once and for all.
> I've asked him to give me a week to get my head around it and then we can tell the kids. He wants me to agree to tell them this is mutual. I refused. And he says I should move in with my mother because his parents are both deceased. I refused. He wants us to be friends. I refused. I told him our kids had a right to have their parents get along, but apart from dealing with our kids that he and I would not be friends. We would not be enemies either, but I will not be agreeing to any friendship at all, just an amicable co-parent relationship. I don't want to talk to him, socialize with him or see him unless it's kid related. He seemed shocked that I would want to cut all unnecessary ties.
> Anyway, that's where I am right now. I have a week to begin to process this.


This is the most amazing thread I have ever seen. One person said its sad everyone calls him ridiculous. He is not ridiculous, he is a flat out a-hole. This is the most warped thing I have ever heard and to add insult, he spies. His actions and opinions are totally unacceptable - maybe ok in ancient Middle East. Maybe one thing you could have said was that you were imagining him, but at this point he has done you a huge favor. What a freak!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Just to clear some things up - we do have an active sex life. I only do this every few months. I know he's very upset about my 'betrayal' and I think he has a right to feel what he feels. What I think is ridiculous is that he's flushing 24 years (since we were 18) two kids, a house, pets, we're financial partners in his business, friends, family etc all down the drain over this. We have a life together with all the bells and whistles that go with that. I've been with him for over half my life and never given him ANY reason not to trust me. And that's what I think is ridiculous. 
His feelings are real and I understand that (although I don't understand why) but in all honesty I think he lacks perspective. And he seems shocked at my reactions. I honestly don't even know who this person is.


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

I am just so astonished by this thread. When I responded earlier it was because I agree it is ridiculous for your husband to be throwing everything away over this particular issue. It seems that there must be more to this than meets the eye. 

In your position I don't think I would want to be friends either. It seems like he wants to have his cake and eat it, frankly. Not having to live with you and the kids but keep other ties. It's really weird.

Someone earlier asked what happened 2 years ago when he made you promise not to masturbate. I wonder if that might shed any light.

Whatever, I wish you all the best.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

I'm gonna be honest, here. First, I don't masturbate and neither does my husband. It wasn't a choice either of us FORCED on the other, but we each made the decision ourselves. If he did, I wouldn't divorce him over it... not unless it interfered in our sex life. Same goes for me, if I were to masturbate. But, even with my odd (by most standards, i know) choice/behavior/views... OP, your husband's reaction is NOT rational. Something is going on in his mind regarding this. I can't even begin to guess what it is. I do agree with you, though... I couldn't be friends with someone who divorced me over something like this. Civil/friendly as far as parenting, but other than that? No. And the idea that he even THOUGHT you would be friends? No, something's up with him.... And he wants out, for some reason. The masturbation subject is just an excuse.


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> ...No, something's up with him.... And he wants out, for some reason. The masturbation subject is just an excuse.




:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

juno 42 said:


> Thanks everyone for trying to help me, giving me their opinions when I'm so lost with this whole thing. But, after a week of tension my H has decided that he is ending our relationship. He believes this will just resurface again and again and so he wants to end it once and for all.
> I've asked him to give me a week to get my head around it and then we can tell the kids. He wants me to agree to tell them this is mutual. I refused. And he says I should move in with my mother because his parents are both deceased. I refused. He wants us to be friends. I refused. I told him our kids had a right to have their parents get along, but apart from dealing with our kids that he and I would not be friends. We would not be enemies either, but I will not be agreeing to any friendship at all, just an amicable co-parent relationship. I don't want to talk to him, socialize with him or see him unless it's kid related. He seemed shocked that I would want to cut all unnecessary ties.
> Anyway, that's where I am right now. I have a week to begin to process this.


Make sure tell as many people as possible that you H forbids you from masturbating and is leaving because you refuse to adhere to this rule. make sure he knows that you are okay with telling people this. Shine the light of reality and truth onto his devious irrational thought process. 

"Dad wants out because he thinks masturbation is something a husband can use to control his wife. A persons body belong to them and Dad doesn't like me having control over my body."

This is a teachable moment about masturbation being natural, normal and healthy for everyone. Your kids are over 13 right?


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## EntirelyDifferent (Nov 30, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Make sure tell as many people as possible that you H forbids you from masturbating and is leaving because you refuse to adhere to this rule. make sure he knows that you are okay with telling people this. Shine the light of reality and truth onto his devious irrational thought process.
> 
> "Dad wants out because he thinks masturbation is something a husband can use to control his wife. A persons body belong to them and Dad doesn't like me having control over my body."
> 
> This is a teachable moment about masturbation being natural, normal and healthy for everyone. Your kids are over 13 right?


:iagree:

This. I would be telling _everyone_, especially since he expected you to tell your friends and family it was mutual.
I totally understand that people have a right to their feelings, but given his expectations when informing you of divorce, I feel like there is something else going on with him.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

juno 42 said:


> Just to clear some things up - we do have an active sex life. I only do this every few months. I know he's very upset about my 'betrayal' and I think he has a right to feel what he feels. What I think is ridiculous is that he's flushing 24 years (since we were 18) two kids, a house, pets, we're financial partners in his business, friends, family etc all down the drain over this. We have a life together with all the bells and whistles that go with that. I've been with him for over half my life and never given him ANY reason not to trust me. And that's what I think is ridiculous.
> His feelings are real and I understand that (although I don't understand why) but in all honesty I think he lacks perspective. And he seems shocked at my reactions. I honestly don't even know who this person is.


Honestly...it appears to me as an outsider looking in that he just wants a divorse and was looking for an excuse. I would go dark and get an attorney I think there is somethong going on you know nothing about. Sorry I hope I am wrong but there are to many red flags....ie illogical excuse for ending relationship, lets stay friends, you move out, tell everone its mutual, that sounds like someone with a plan....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

This is absurd on its face. Its about control thats all.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

There has to be something else going on here. Has he told you exactly why he doesn't want you to M? Does it make him feel insecure or that he's not satisfying you sufficiently? It would make more sense, perhaps, if his objection was to you masturbating to porn or using a 12 inch dildo, but plain masturbation for the sheer pleasure of it? Doesn't make sense.


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

Watch your divorce attorney's reaction when he/she asks you about the reason for divorce....and you say....wife masturbated....


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Again, would love to be a fly on that wall too!


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## Visual1 (Apr 16, 2013)

Tell your H that if everyone has his believe, then the divorce rate would be 99.99%.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Thanks everyone. Talking about this is actually really helping. 
Firstly, what happened two years ago was that he confronted me about it because he suspected that I had M. I knew he didn't like it, but I'd told him previously that it wasn't a reflection on him and reassured him, but he said he couldn't handle it, and that's when we made the deal. At the time I really did mean it, even though I thought it was unfair and controlling, but if it meant that much to him so be it. As time went on, that's when I started to think 'this is silly' 'he'll never find out'. 
As for there being something else going on, I don't know. I really don't think it's 'someone' else but 'something' else. I do know that this whole thing is not really about me. Something is going on with him. 
Our kids are 14 and 18. So this whole thing is going to be so embarassing for them if they find out the reason. They're at that age where they like to pretend storks left them instead of mum and dad 'doing it' ewwwww. But I do wonder what 'sex talk' he's had with the 18 year old. Maybe I need to do a little damage control on what's normal and what's not. 
One of my friends (yes, I told a couple of my close friends because I was destraught and I needed support but he would be mad if he knew I told anyone) said this was the coolest divorce excuse ever. They said they wished it was their divorce excuse instead of the usual 'spouse fell out of love with me' generic boring story. It did make me laugh and relieve the tension for a minute. 
I'm trying to be the adult one. I'm not trying to insult him in any way, but I don't think he's acting rationally, and me yelling and screaming will just fuel the fire and that's not good for anyone. At the moment it's all about how he feels. How he's been betrayed. He's not thinking five minutes in front of him and how this is going to effect everyone, including him. He's hurt and betrayed so he's leaving - that's all he sees. 
I really believe he's making a huge mistake. He's allowed to make it, it's his decision, but I want him to stop, think and make that decision with his eyes open. 
Opinions?


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I think you need to do a 180 right now. How old is he?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> As for there being something else going on, I don't know. I really don't think it's 'someone' else but 'something' else. I do know that this whole thing is not really about me. Something is going on with him.


If he won't explain why he's so opposed to you masturbating, he's not giving you any information that would help you understand him. It seems he just wants to blow up your relationship, any excuse for it. Have things been bad between you over the last couple of years? Does he try to control you in other ways?

Or maybe he has a brain tumor that's causing him to act oddly. Has he been acting weird about anything else? 

If I were in your shoes, I'd let him leave. I wouldn't be able to live with someone I consider insane and controlling.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> Thanks everyone. Talking about this is actually really helping.
> Firstly, what happened two years ago was that he confronted me about it because he suspected that I had M. I knew he didn't like it, but I'd told him previously that it wasn't a reflection on him and reassured him, but he said he couldn't handle it, and that's when we made the deal. At the time I really did mean it, even though I thought it was unfair and controlling, but if it meant that much to him so be it. As time went on, that's when I started to think 'this is silly' 'he'll never find out'.
> As for there being something else going on, I don't know. I really don't think it's 'someone' else but 'something' else. I do know that this whole thing is not really about me. Something is going on with him.
> Our kids are 14 and 18. So this whole thing is going to be so embarassing for them if they find out the reason. They're at that age where they like to pretend storks left them instead of mum and dad 'doing it' ewwwww. But I do wonder what 'sex talk' he's had with the 18 year old. Maybe I need to do a little damage control on what's normal and what's not.
> ...



Opinions?

Here's my opinion. You need to answer some of the questions posed to you here, such as if this is the only aspect of your life he tries to control, etc. or if he has any medical issues. 

Also, try to get into marital counseling at least. You can use something for leverage, i.e. telling him that if he goes with you to at least ONE session you might consider NOT telling the world why he chose to leave you.


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## debbysteelefen (May 12, 2013)

I have a kind of similar arrangement with my husband.

Both my husband and I have a high sex drive, and have most of our 20+ year marriage.

At the begining of the relationship, he used to watch a lot of adult movies and masturabate, I had a problem with it but he didn't bother to try to hide it and it was kind of gross to me.

One time when I went to sleep, I laid my head on the pillow and realised that he had cum about 4 times on it, gross!!!!!!!!

Took me a while to come up with some mutual agreement so that he would stop doing that, so the agreement we came up with was that he would not masturbate but just ask me for oral. Long story short I cant have vaginal sex due to issues down south, so oral was what I could agree to.

He knows I wont leave him if I find him masturbating, but he knows that if he does that then there is no need for me to give him oral, and he loves oral.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

This needs to be a Dr Phil episode. Title - 'Husband forbids wife to masturbate'. Just listen to that title, it is the craziest, most medieval thing you can dream up. I wouldn't be surprised if he had you wear a chastity belt. What millennium is this? This guy wants out and needs a section 8 - but surely enough once out there won't be long before he comes groveling back. And btw, if he is a man he jacks off, if he doesn't, not a human. Wow, talk about oppression, this takes the cake. Of I were a woman in this predicament, I would buy a burka and wear it until he f*cks off!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Your husband was looking for a reason to divorce you. So he figured that if he spied on you long enough you'd do the horrible M and then he'd have his excuse.

Do you work outside the home? 

Do you have access to all the finances (yours, his and joint)?

Take a look at see if he has been moving money and things around. I'll bet he's been planning this for a long time. 

Something is going on and he wants to make you the 'bad guy'.


.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

notmarriedyet said:


> Opinions?
> 
> Here's my opinion. You need to answer some of the questions posed to you here, such as if this is the only aspect of your life he tries to control, etc. or if he has any medical issues.
> 
> Also, try to get into marital counseling at least. You can use something for leverage, i.e. telling him that if he goes with you to at least ONE session you might consider NOT telling the world why he chose to leave you.


He does have some other minor control issues with household issues. The oven should always be used in the fan forced mode, the car shouldn't be started with the air con on, the exhaust fan in the bathroom should be on when having a shower so mould doesn't grow on the ceiling, etc etc. BUT I am not a wallflower, I'm independent. I tell him if he wants things done his way he can do them himself. My floors haven't been vacuumed for 3 weeks because I work and my mothers been unwell and I haven't had time. He knows that he can vacuum anytime he wants, but we both know he won't. So yes, he does try to control me in certain ways.

I have an appt for marriage counselling wednesday night with or without him. He said he would go, but I'm not sure if he's saying that so that he can say he went and it didn't work or whether he really wants to talk to someone.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Your husband was looking for a reason to divorce you. So he figured that if he spied on you long enough you'd do the horrible M and then he'd have his excuse.
> 
> Do you work outside the home?
> 
> ...


Maybe you're right. I don't know. Yes, I work. I'm the one who does all the finances, pays the bills, pays the mortgage, organises any paperwork. He works for himself and we're financial partners in his business. I told him when we divorce he can have his business, but I'm taking my name off everything. I'm canceling all the accounts in joint names, all the taxation stuff in joint names, and everything else. He can do all his own bookwork (which he doesn't have a clue) and pay all his taxes himself and his employees wages etc. He seemed shocked that I would do that to him. 

I don't know what this is. Is this something else? I do believe that he's been trying to provoke me into a big fight so that I agree to the divorce and he can say we both wanted it, but I won't give him the satisfaction. I do believe he desperately doesn't want to be the bad guy. Am I completely clueless? Is there a someone else? Or the idea of a someone else? Is it a single bachelor life calling him? I don't know.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

diwali123 said:


> I think you need to do a 180 right now. How old is he?


You think I should agree to his demands? He's 43


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## toxxik (May 20, 2013)

I have to side with your H. Without hijacking the thread I will say I have been in his shoes and it isn't a control thing, it is a trust issue. For me intimate acts should be a shared experience and to have them hidden and lied about feels like nothing less than betrayal. DH and I recently had a serious conversation about this very issues and quite frankly if I found out he was doing this again behind my back I don't know if the violation if my trust in him could ever recover. I know that isn't the popular opinion but I thought it might give a different perspective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

No you should NOT agree to his demands! He has an agenda, do not agree to anything. You see pretty leve l headed to me, your not letting him run right over you good girl keep it up. I would get a consult with an attorney so you understand better your rights. I am not sure your hubsband doesn't have another agenda or something else wrong because he isn't really being rational. Men don't divorse their wives because they masterbate....this is a smoke screen for another reason whatever that is I don't have a clue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

KendalMintcake said:


> And btw, if he is a man he jacks off, if he doesn't, not a human.


Sorry, you're wrong here. Not every man (or woman) chooses to masturbate. You speak for yourself, not every man. While I freely admit that the *majority* of men do, I also know that not *every* man does. And that my husband does not, doesn't make him any less of a man, or _human_, as you put it, than the fact that _you_ masturbate makes you a man/human. 

Now, I do agree, however that this is a control issue. Especially if he badgered her into agreeing to it, and/or never gave an actual reason for his view on masturbation. It may be a trust issue. But what brought it on in the first place?

Btw, it wouldn't be a Dr. Phil show... it would be more geared for Maury Povich audience.


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## LoriC (Feb 18, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Sorry, you're wrong here. Not every man (or woman) chooses to masturbate. You speak for yourself, not every man. While I freely admit that the *majority* of men do, I also know that not *every* man does. And that my husband does not, doesn't make him any less of a man, or _human_, as you put it, than the fact that _you_ masturbate makes you a man/human.
> 
> Now, I do agree, however that this is a control issue. Especially if he badgered her into agreeing to it, and/or never gave an actual reason for his view on masturbation. It may be a trust issue. But what brought it on in the first place?
> 
> Btw, it wouldn't be a Dr. Phil show... it would be more geared for Maury Povich audience.


I agree with Maricha on this one. My H does not masturbate. He says he never feels the need to. We have sex just about every day, why would he need to? However me on the other hand does. But it is almost always with him next to me. I don't O very easily through just sex alone. Not to say I never do but when I don't I masturbate right after. He thinks this is the biggest turn on to watch and he sometimes participates. ;-)


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

The Kinsey Institute - Sexuality Information Links - FAQ [Related Resources]

Down in the footnotes for the "Masturbation Activity with a Partner" table, there is a footnote to a 1994 study claiming that 85% of men and 45% of women in a relationship with a sexual partner still masturbate. Given the results of the table for certain age groups, the numbers are undoubtedly higher for those in the 25-40 age group.

It's not even remotely unusual for women, and overwhelmingly normal for men to do this.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You are doing the right things mostly.

Since he appears lazy, you should just sit back and let him do all the divorce related work. Stop having sex with him.

Don't give up any financial interest in anything you are entitled to. The harder divorce is for him, the lower the likelhood he will do it. The worse his "going through a divorce" life is, and the worse his "future post divorce life" is , the lower likelyhood he will follow through with it.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I think that if this had been a discussion early in the relationship, and something both partners agreed to (as others indicate here they have done) it would be one thing. But two decades into a marriage to demand someone agree to never masturbate, for reasons unknown, and then continually keep tabs on them that entire tab for "offenses" so they have an excuse to divorce?

Yeah - that's deeper than a sexual preference issue. If this was such a deal-breaker and a violation of trust for him - it would have been an issue all along. 

So - I don't know if its an affair, a tumor, or a mid-life crisis where he suddenly wants to have freedom and be kid-free and this was the ticket, but - if he's seriously going to pursue a divorce over this - he isn't thinking rationally. So - I'd contact a lawyer -now- and start protecting your assets - because who knows what else an irrational mind might do.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

diwali123 said:


> I think you need to do a 180 right now. How old is he?





juno 42 said:


> You think I should agree to his demands? He's 43


The 180 that diwali is talking about is linked to in my signature block below.


From the sounds of it, he says that he is going to divorce you now whether you give in to his demands or not. Is this right?


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Also - creepy question, but - was moving the lube really all the "evidence" he supposedly had to confront you with? What's the chance he might have hidden cameras in the house?


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> As time went on, that's when I started to think 'this is silly' 'he'll never find out'.



Here is a problem that seems to have been missed, perhaps due to the outrageousness of the subject. You made a promise and then decided to break it because you thought you would not be caught. While I agree that his request was peculiar and inappropriate, it clearly was important to him. More significantly you agreed. Then you broke your word. Learn from this for the future. The correct course of action would have been to tell him that you would no longer be able to honor the promise and let the chips fall where they may. Whether or not it was silly, you agreed to it. 

For the record, I love the fact that my wife ocassionally masturbates. Nothing turns me on more than her sexuality. I doesn't happen often, but one in a while she will tell me that she "took care" of herself earlier in the day. It really brings out the animal in me. I suppose that his self-confidence could be threatened but I think the others are right that this is just a convenient excuse to end the marriage.


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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

I think this may be the absolute strangest and saddest reason I've ever read that a H wants a divorce. Your H has lost his mind. Only someone who has lost their mind would give up a wife (who has sex with him 2-4x/week), kids, and a house.

As embarrassing as it will be to talk about you and masturbation, I don't think you should protect him/cover-up for him by making up a reason why you are getting a divorce. He wants you to say it's mutual? HAH! He knows what a pathetic reason it is. 

One day he'll wake up and see that he threw it all away. What a shame. I know that you're trying to get him to wake up now. You sound strong and tough. Don't for one split second think that your H has one iota of anything that makes his stance OK. He is probably the only person in this universe who would divorce his wife over this reason.

With no shame and with a dead serious face, you should tell your attorney why your husband wants a divorce and if necessary, tell your kids some close variation to the truth. I would not cover for this man no way.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Also - at the time the promise was made did he make a similiar vow? Did you -both- agree not to pursue masturbation? Or was this rule only for you? Was it only about -you- promising?

If so - that's a real issue. There's reason two years ago that your action triggered this demand to control your sexuality. What was it?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It sounds like he is going through a MLC and is making up a reason for breaking up the marriage.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> The Kinsey Institute - Sexuality Information Links - FAQ [Related Resources]
> 
> Down in the footnotes for the "Masturbation Activity with a Partner" table, there is a footnote to a 1994 study claiming that 85% of men and 45% of women in a relationship with a sexual partner still masturbate. Given the results of the table for certain age groups, the numbers are undoubtedly higher for those in the 25-40 age group.
> 
> It's not even remotely unusual for women, and overwhelmingly normal for men to do this.


Just for clarification, not trying to argue at all... that wasn't directed at me, was it? Because I did state early on that I know the majority (both men and women) do masturbate. I also know you'd be hard pressed to find someone who had NEVER done it... However, my point is that even if most will insist on the "he does it. don't let him fool you." stance, that isn't always true. Some choose not to, for various reasons. Slight as it may be, there is that chance that he doesn't masturbate (which your quoted study says... 15% of men and 55% of women do not masturbate when in a relationship...as of 1994 study).


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Just for clarification, not trying to argue at all... that wasn't directed at me, was it?


Nope, not directed at anyone at all. Just trying to inject some data into a sea of anecdotes. Of course everyone doesn't do it, but the number of optional things in life practiced universally is probably an empty set. When people say "everyone", they rarely mean literally every living, breathing person on earth.

Anyone who thinks masturbation is infidelity worthy of ending a marriage had better be ready to justify the dissolution of at least 5 out of every 6 marriages in the country. 

As for me, this falls into the category of things you do NOT have the right to expect from a spouse, even if you assumed it but did not specifically mention it before the wedding. Short of a pre-nup that spells this out and to which your spouse agreed, you're SOL. If you think otherwise, get out of your marriage, placing the blame where it squarely belongs, or get reeducated.

Understand that I don't usually take a my-way-or-the-highway approach in a complicated world, but this is a fundamental human right. Or at least it ought to be so recognized.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> Also - at the time the promise was made did he make a similiar vow? Did you -both- agree not to pursue masturbation? Or was this rule only for you? Was it only about -you- promising?





juno 42 said:


> At the time *I made him promise not to masturbate either*, and I stupidly thought it would make him realize that the whole deal was unfair. I assumed he did masturbate, but either he's had no problem keeping to the deal or he doesn't do it at all.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

I feel like the issue at hand here (for the OP) is getting a little watered down by some side-debates about

1. Whether or not literally EVERYONE masturbates.

and

2. How much blame the OP deserves for allowing herself to be bullied into making a promise that she was likely not going to be able to keep.

I'm sure that there are people that do not masturbate. I'm sure that there are people who say they don't, but do. I'm sure there are people that say they do, but don't. *The OP does and wants to do so:* that is the issue at hand. 

The OP has said that making the promise was a mistake. She understands that her husband feels betrayed. However, she seems to also realize that exacting this sort of promise from someone who has other inclinations and wishes is unfair and destructive. 

Masturbation is not a betrayal of intimacy. To define it as such seems to introduce an area of conflict and hurt that does not need to exist in the first place. For the most part, humans begin to masturbate long before they develop intimate sexual relationships with another human. Masturbation belongs to the self, it is part of the sexual identity of the self. Some couples CHOOSE to share it as part of a sexual relationship, but that does not then mean that every act of masturbation then belongs to the realm of the intimate. As for the posters who say they choose to limit or curtail masturbation to save themselves for spouses: the key here is * willing, freely given consent. * 

That is why I said, in my previous post, that this seems to be an issue of one individual trying to control the personal autonomy of another. 

I fully understand that the OP's husband has an issue with her masturbating. I think she is going above and beyond what many women would do to try and figure this out, and why it causes him to ostensibly have issues with insecurity and trust. When he got her to promise not to masturbate, I think he must have known, deep down inside, that it wasn't a healthy or normal thing to try and force on her. His actions leading up to when he "caught" her seem to bear that out--i.e. he was on the hunt for "clues." It smacks very much of set up. You make someone so miserable that they give in and reluctantly do what they feel needs to be done to keep the peace, then you bide your time until they fail and indulge in feeling hurt and violated. It's manipulative, and the OP very evidently gets this. 

OP: good for you for heading to MC. I hope your H gets the help he needs. If he cannot come to see that his demand is unfair, then I hope at least he can be made to understand why you want to break ties with him and not stay friends and business partners. If your marriage is indeed going to end over this, then I hope you also get some good advice on how to advise your children through this, and how to protect yourself during the divorce.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"Masturbation is not a betrayal of intimacy."

We don't get to decide for others what is a betrayal to them.

It doesn't matter what any of us thinks on that point. It only matters what her husband thinks.

Now, she gets to think whatever she wants about the topic too, but she still can't change what he thinks. They might talk and compromise or they might divorce. Either way, he still gets to feel betrayed because his feelings are the only ones that matter to HIM, and that is as it should be.

The fact that this seems to bizarre to the rest of us, doesn't make any difference.

And she might find out later that he is having an affair or an MLC or has a brain tumor...but that doesn't matter at this time either.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Wow, seriously?

If I were your husband I'd have a number of things to say to you if I found out that you masturbated. Right out of the top of my head comes - "Cool, can I watch next time?"


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

> It only matters what her husband thinks.


True, except presumably this is a newer development. It seems rather unfair to suddenly state this after 20 years of marriage and elevate the subject to a divorceable criterion without any further discussion on the matter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> "Masturbation is not a betrayal of intimacy."
> 
> We don't get to decide for others what is a betrayal to them.
> 
> It doesn't matter what any of us thinks on that point. It only matters what her husband thinks.


Right, if one's husband is offended by one's personal predilections and holds the marriage hostage to it, it doesn't really matter how ridiculous/unusual/unfair/unpopular it is; the spouse is forced to deal with it. I get that. I think we ALL, at this point, get that. 

But where do you draw the line at "not getting to decide what others think?" If her husband didn't want her to eat sweets or take bubble baths or shave her legs--it's all the same thing. You can't reasonably take an act that is personal and emotionally manipulate your spouse in order to control that act. I agree that it makes him unhappy, that he has an issue with it, that he just can't live with it, but he is responsible for burdening their marriage with it. The OP is seeking counseling to try and work this out--and work it out WITH him if he is willing. I see her doing everything she can to accommodate him.

At the end of the day,the OP requested opinions on whether or not she is out of line. She is not.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Agreed that he is acting very odd, and agreed that the wife has every right to be shocked, hurt, and also feel betrayed.

But that doesn't change anything about the husband's right to feel betrayed.

He does, and that's that.

If they end up divorced over this, that is a horrible shame...but it still doesn't change anything.

The only way the wife has any chance of figuring out this weird situation is for her to see his feelings as valid first.

If she can do that, they might be able to fix this thing.


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## Keeponrollin (May 14, 2013)

Your husband is out of his mind!!!! Nothing sexier than a women masturbating, especially for you as a form of foreplay. He got serious insecurity issues


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## LoriC (Feb 18, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Agreed that he is acting very odd, and agreed that the wife has every right to be shocked, hurt, and also feel betrayed.
> 
> But that doesn't change anything about the husband's right to feel betrayed.
> 
> ...


I agree that he is behaving oddly about this. I have to say I think there is more to this story that has not come out yet. I bet he is using this as an excuse for D. The real truth has not come out yet. You dont throw away 20 years or better because your wife was rubbing one out. 

I wonder if we will ever find out?


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> He wants me to agree to tell them this is mutual.


That's proof he knows he is in the wrong. Either he is lying about why he wants a divorce, or he knows that his beef against masturbation is his problem, not yours. 

The last thing you should ever do is allow him to talk you into lying about why a divorce happened. 

I'd be inclined to let everyone know what he claims to be the basis for the divorce.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I totally agree that you should not agree to stating a divorce was a mutual choice, and not only that, you should make sure he knows you plan to tell everyone exactly why he wanted the divorce.

But I don't agree that this is proof that he knows he is in the wrong.

Many people who ask for a divorce, ask their spouse to go along with the "it is a mutual decision" thing. It is a natural request. It doesn't really mean anything. Having worked for a divorce attorney before and seeing dozens and dozens of divorces, I would say nearly all of them have this in their story (that the spouse asking for the D also asks that they both say it is a mutual decision).

Yes it is cowardly in some cases, but it still doesn't mean he is lying about "why" he wants a D.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Ah, thank you for clarifying, Maricha, I must have missed that.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I don't think the question is about how valid his feeling are about masturbation. The question is how rational are they? It seems universal that imposing a no masturbation sanction on another, in the absence of a D/s lifestyle, is irrational. That she agreed in the first place was probably a mistake, but since it was such an irrational demand, I think it would be within the bounds of ration to just agree then do as she pleases anyway. Like you mother always telling you to wear clean underwear, or take a sweater ... "yea ma I do I do" ...but there are times we fail in this.

It was an irrational request, one that no one can reasonably be expected to honor. His feelings of being betrayed are valid, yet remain irrational!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> "Masturbation is not a betrayal of intimacy."
> 
> We don't get to decide for others what is a betrayal to them.


Well....

I can call water air all day long, but that doesn't make it breathable.

It requires a very tortured definition of the word betrayal to include masturbation. There is a reasonable expectation of exclusive access to your partner's genitalia when married. There is no reasonable expectation that they simultaneously give up that right themselves. 

Let's just say that I doubt a court of law would put both positions on equal footing.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> That's proof he knows he is in the wrong. Either he is lying about why he wants a divorce, or he knows that his beef against masturbation is his problem, not yours.
> 
> The last thing you should ever do is allow him to talk you into lying about why a divorce happened.
> 
> I'd be inclined to let everyone know what he claims to be the basis for the divorce.


:iagree: Amen, brother. Smoking gun.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Cletus said: "I can call water air all day long, but that doesn't make it breathable.

It requires a very tortured definition of the word betrayal to include masturbation. There is a reasonable expectation of exclusive access to your partner's genitalia when married. There is no reasonable expectation that they simultaneously give up that right themselves. 

Let's just say that I doubt a court of law would put both positions on equal footing." (end quote)

Again, this is your opinion, which matters ZERO to the OP's husband.

It might be fun for us to read each other's opinions, but how does it help her?

No a court of law wouldn't do anything with the two positions you put forth, because a court of law doesn't deal with abstract opinions about relationships. However, a court of law most DEFINITELY will grant this husband a divorce over ANY matter he chooses, or even over NO matter. A person can simply change their mind one day and want a divorce, and the courts AGREE that they are granted one. Does the court agree this husband may divorce his wife over masturbation? YES.

THAT is the only thing that matters here.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Starstarfish said:


> Also - creepy question, but - was moving the lube really all the "evidence" he supposedly had to confront you with? What's the chance he might have hidden cameras in the house?



:iagree:

juno, 

I have been thinking this same thing. The tub of lubricant being moved slightly does not make sense. You might want to have someone check hour bedroom and house for hidden cameras. Spy cameras are so cheep now and easy to hide in things.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Again, this is your opinion, which matters ZERO to the OP's husband.


Words have meaning or they do not.

Her husband has a real feeling, to which he is entitled, that is a reaction to an action by his wife which does NOT fit the definition of the word betrayal. 

I'm on board with you that this is their problem and not ours to agree to or solve, but if he considers this betrayal,

He. Is. Wrong.

Even if his personal definition coming into the relationship included masturbation as betrayal, his definition is still incorrect. Not bloody everything is open to interpretation.

Last word from me, I promise. But I'm so strongly on the side of the OP on this one that my laissez-faire approach is overwhelmed.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> He works for himself and we're financial partners in his business. I told him when we divorce he can have his business,


Why?

I strongly suggest you see a lawyer _*immediately*_. Get advice both on the divorce laws where you live and your financial rights. If it comes to divorce, and you have financial rights in the shared business, then you should have that taken into account in any division of assets or decisions about alimony. Don't surrender those rights without fair compensation.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> :iagree:
> 
> juno,
> 
> I have been thinking this same thing. The tub of lubricant being moved slightly does not make sense. You might want to have someone check hour bedroom and house for hidden cameras. Spy cameras are so cheep now and easy to hide in things.


I've done something similar once.

I once wondered if my wife ever used a toy when I wasn't around. Given her attitudes about sexuality, I didn't have a lot of faith that I'd get a straight answer. When she got a package from a Passion Party thrown by her best friend, it included a small vibrator and a spray bottle of toy cleaner. I figured why buy what you aren't going to use. Knowing that if she used the toy (whose location I did not know) she'd likely use the cleaner, I placed the bottle in a specific orientation in the vanity and left it in place.

This was to help decide if her lack of sexual interest was general or limited just to me. I checked the bottle a few times over the next few months. I never installed cameras or taping devices or anything of that sort, but then I never intended to use anything I found as a reason for a divorce either.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Cletus...I probably would have agreed with you, long ago, before I read up more about betrayal in marriage, and before I had such fiercely protected boundaries in marriage. There is a lot of information about this out there, I'm not just pulling my own opinion out of a hat. There are books and experts out there that could help this couple understand why the husband's feelings of betrayal are REAL and how they can deal with them.

If the wife wants that...and I don't know that she does.

But I'm just saying, I'm not making sh*t up just for fun. Her husband isn't wrong, he feels betrayed, and again, your opinion on that matters zero, same as everyone else's.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Again, this is your opinion, which matters ZERO to the OP's husband.
> 
> It might be fun for us to read each other's opinions, but how does it help her?


I can't speak to the OP's reason for posting, but the "Desperately need advice" potion of her thread title and the fact that she re-iterates a call for advice in her opening post would lead me to believe that opinions are what she was seeking. 

Since the OP's husband didn't post here, most responses to this thread are not meant to benefit him, I think. Not that his feelings are not important, or up for consideration, but advice to the OP is what is probably foremost in the minds of most responders here. Calling people out for posting opinions on an open forum seems odd. We have to be careful not to miss the forest because we're focusing on our favorite tree. 

I think that most people who turn to open forums with a question are looking for opinions and understand that they are based on a wide range of personal experiences, values, beliefs, etc. I don't always open, close or pepper my responses with "in my opinion" type phrases, because I assume that the OP will assume that I'm writing my opinion (especially when that was what was expressly asked for.) 

I think that most everyone has offered up some honest and sometimes very insightful advice and opinion here. None of it is the be-all-and-end-all answer, of course, but all of it has the potential to help the poster deal with this situation. 



Faithful Wife said:


> Cletus...I probably would have agreed with you, long ago, before I read up more about betrayal in marriage, and before I had such fiercely protected boundaries in marriage. There is a lot of information about this out there, I'm not just pulling my own opinion out of a hat. There are books and experts out there that could help this couple understand why the husband's feelings of betrayal are REAL and how they can deal with them.


I think that the OP is pretty clear a few times that she understands that he feels betrayed--and even that she suspects this betrayal is very real to him. I don't think she needs help seeing that, in fact I think she's tried reassuring him the best she can. I thought that, by posting here, she was seeking reassurance that she wasn't crazy or in the wrong for feeling that his demands were out of bounds, and that she needed a place to get opinions on her plans for how to approach the situation. 

Reading up on how feelings of betrayal arise in marriage might be a good thing if you don't understand that irrational fear is real to some people, but that doesn't change how she (and most people) feels about his irrational demands. Living with someone with a phobia of say, spiders, is different than living with someone who freaks out because you want to touch yourself sexually once in awhile. 

The OP's husband has a story to tell here, too, no doubt. It would be interesting to hear it. Maybe the OP can shed more light in the event that he decides to go to MC and open up.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes, everyone gets their opinion, and the OP hearing them probably isn't going to hurt matters.

But it CAN hurt in these types of cases.

Because she needs to also hear that her H has his own feelings, which are valid. Since few other posters are saying this, I am saying it.

The only way she has any hope of figuring this mess out, is if she understands that his feelings of betrayal are valid.

I'm hoping they can work this out, but they will not if she doesn't see this fact.

For instance, Getting It, I think you had said that when you were LD, if your H had issued you an ultimatum, "more sex or divorce", that you may have ended up divorced. Becuase you said at that time, you just didn't really understand his point and would have thought he was just being controlling. This is basically the same thing. If the wife here doesn't want to acknowledge her husband's feelings of betrayal as valid, then she might end up divorced, and maybe that is what needs to happen. 

At the same time, I'm not advising her at ALL to just accept this situation. I definitely hope she doesn't let him divorce her and then tell everyone it was a mutual decision.

But...if she is to listen to all the "yep, that is rediculous, he is a fool, he is wrong, it is not a betrayal, he needs help, he is insecure, he is controlling, he is crazy"....ok, fine. That might help her feel a little better for a moment. But will it stop her H from trying to divorce her over this? Nope.

That's where I'm trying to give her some other things to look at and think about.


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## youkiddingme (Jul 30, 2012)

Your husband is crazy. I strongly suspect that you could hide a camera in the shower and find all of the evidence that you need of his hypocrisy. He needs mental health care. He is nuts.... I don't care if those are his feelings. If he calls masturbation the same as infidelity he is crazy... no matter what other posters write. He is nuts. Being whacked out does not mean you need to take his thoughts seriously! Don't be absurd.

I bought my wife vibrators and asked her to use them and tell me about it. I love it. That is not infidelity... it is self pleasure. And I love to think that she has had such pleasure.

Quit telling this poster that her husbands thoughts on this are valid...they are rediculous. Being crazy, being nuts, having crazy rediculous thought..... just because he has them does not make them valid or right. Stop it. Get a grip folks.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ok youkiddingme, what SHOULD the wife do?

Let him divorce her and just be ok with that, because he is crazy?

If that's what she wants, then I'm sure she could do just that.

Many people would.

It still doesn't change the fact that he feels betrayed.


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## youkiddingme (Jul 30, 2012)

Just because a person has certain feelings does not make them valid or ok. He needs counseling. That is what she should try to get him. He is being rediculous. Please don't make the feelings or thoughts of crazy people look like they are somehow valid or justified or whatever! CAlling masturbation the same as infidelity is sick.

What she needs to do is get him to a counselor. HIS FEELINGS....ARE JUST THAT HIS FEELINGS. Feelings lie. Feelings are not necessarily based in fact. HIS FEELINGS ARE HIS PROBLEM NOT HERS. SHE HAS NOT CAUSED HIS IRRATIONAL THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS. HE IS CAUSING HIS IRRATIONAL THOUGHTS WHICH RESULT IN HIS REDICULOUS FEELINGS.

Wake up folks. Feelings are not rational. Feelings are not reasonable. His feelings are based in HIS irrational thoughts. She is not responsible for his rediculous feelings based upon HIS irrational thoughts. 

He feels betrayed? Who the heck cares? He needs to grow up or she should free herself from this 3 year old.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> It still doesn't change the fact that he feels betrayed.


My mother, with paranoid schizophrenia, always thinks They are Out To Get Her. Ultimately, she divorced my father over all manner of suspicions that were all in her head. But she sure felt it, so much so that we once had to pluck her scraped and bloodied from her hiding place in a blackberry patch.

Getting divorced was probably the best thing that ever happened to him, in the end.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ok then, to youkiddingme and Cletus....it is entirely possible that this husband is in fact mentally ill. Stuff like that happens. Or sometimes it happens temporarily and they call it a mid-life crisis.

So I guess the wife should just dump him off at an inpatient treatment facility and drive herself down to the divorce attorney's office.

Her husband clearly isn't worth trying to work this out, since he is mentally ill, according to you both.


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## youkiddingme (Jul 30, 2012)

Oh Cletus.... but her feelings matter more than reality!!!! Her feelings (the feeings of a crazy person) trump all rational thought!!!!

kidding of course. good illustration.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Since the wife in this case did not tell us that she has evidence that her husband is mentally ill, I did not assume he was.

But if he is, that is another matter.


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## youkiddingme (Jul 30, 2012)

FAithful wife.... do yourself a favor and listen to what people are actually saying. Listen to what people are actually writing. Listen to what is actually going on around you and don't just make things up. You appear to have the same issues as this persons husband. You are led by your feelings and not actual reality.

Find peace and freedom by learning to listen.

Find peace and freedom by learning to listen.

Feelings lie. Feelings lie. Feelings are crappy tools for dealing with life.

Listen to what people have said. I said for her to get him to a counselor. I said it. Go back and read it and don't expect the rest of the world to deal with the stuff that YOUR feelings make up.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok then, to youkiddingme and Cletus....it is entirely possible that this husband is in fact mentally ill. Stuff like that happens. Or sometimes it happens temporarily and they call it a mid-life crisis.
> 
> So I guess the wife should just dump him off at an inpatient treatment facility and drive herself down to the divorce attorney's office.
> 
> Her husband clearly isn't worth trying to work this out, since he is mentally ill, according to you both.


No, of course not. All we're trying to get across is the notion that his feelings, while perhaps real to her husband if not just an excuse, are not as stated valid. What the OP wants to do about that is up to her, but she doesn't need to worry that she's being unreasonable in thinking her position is justified. 

Of course the first thing she should try to do is get to the bottom of the problem in an effort to fix it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

youkiddingme....Please do yourself a favor and read the Marriage Builders information and understand that their principals are used by tens of thousands of people, and that the main point of their program is to build romantic love, and to do this each spouse takes the others spouse's feelings into account as if they are real. They do not disrespect each other by trying to say that only their own feelings matter but their spouse's doesn't. Please take the time to understant that there are ways of handling marital conflict that do not involve belittling and disrespecting your spouse, such as by telling them that they are insane when they bring to you their frustrations.


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## youkiddingme (Jul 30, 2012)

I could come home tonight and tell my wife that "I feel like she has betrayed me by fixing chicken when whe knows i like beef." And I want her to go out and tell the whole world that she has cheated on me and that we are getting a divorce by mutual decison. 

That is absurd and I would be insane for saying it. The rediculous feelings of people that are being irrational should not ever be elevated to the level of needing to be listened to. Feelings lie. Feelings are thought based.... based in the thoughts of the person that they belong to. They are not based in the actions of others..... His rediculous feelings need to be owned by Him... Not her.


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## youkiddingme (Jul 30, 2012)

I am simply tired of people making their feelings "God". Feelings are simply that. Feelings. They are produced by the thoughts of the person that has them. Feelings are not necessarily valid. Feelings are not necessarily based upon anything corresponding to reality. 

She is not responsible for his feelings if they are NOT the result of things that she has actually done. This is dumping a crap load of unearned/underseved guilt upon a person that does not deserve it. It is abusive.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"She is not responsible for his feelings if they are NOT the result of things that she has actually done."


Except in this case, his feelings WERE the result of something she has actually done, and something she agreed not to do.

This whole thing might have played out differently if she had been honest with him before and told him she wasn't going to agree to it. Then if he wanted a divorce when she wouldn't agree to it, at least she would have known then that he was serious. Apparently, he WAS serious, even though she didn't think he was. Whose fault was that?

In any case, not sure why this is making you so angry. I'm giving my opinion. What's the big deal?

There aren't very many people in the world who can claim to actually be marriage experts, yet William Harley is one of them, and his ideas are what I am getting at. Don't do anything that you know will hurt your spouse. That is one of the basics of the MB program. Go on getting all freaked out about this, it matters none to me. But again, I'm not just pulling stuff out of the air. I'm talking about what WORKS in marriage, and one of the things that works is to consider your spouse's feelings as valid.

If you don't consider your spouse's feelings as valid, then you might as well get divorced.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> "She is not responsible for his feelings if they are NOT the result of things that she has actually done."
> 
> 
> Except in this case, his feelings WERE the result of something she has actually done, and something she agreed not to do.
> ...


I agree with what you are saying in that a spouse has to take the other's needs seriously. Most marriages that get in trouble do so because the spouses are not doing this.

However, it also means that the Policy of Joint Agreement and Radical Honesty have to be followed. Neither were in this case. The OP felt pushed into agreeing to something against her will. Plus she was not honest with her husband about this.

That said. I think that there is fault on both sides. 

The solution should not be to end the marriage but to go back and discuss this further and see if they can come to some agreement... this time being honest with each other.


I wounder if OP has a habit of not sticking to things she agrees with. Also wonder what other problems are in the marriage... is this the straw that broke the camel's back?

Or is her husband just looking for a reason to divorce her?

We don't know as there is a lot of info we don't have.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> If you don't consider your spouse's feelings as valid, then you might as well get divorced.


Have you never considered your spouses feelings as invalid and called "bullsh*t"? I know I've been on both sides of that one, and sometimes my feelings (and my wife's) are irrational and invalid.

We don't consider the next step divorce. We try to fix the problem. Sometimes just getting called out on the floor over your stupidity is all the humiliation it takes to fix the problem. 

There have been in my marriage many conversations of the form "I understand that you feel that way. Here's why you're wrong" on both sides. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we just have to let it go.

Here's an example I've used before. My wife refuses to learn how to set the rear view mirrors on her car correctly. There is an objectively correct way to maximize your visibility and reduce your blind spot that she will not use because she doesn't like it. It's irrational, she's objectively wrong, which can actually be proven, and she won't change. I haven't divorced her over it, even when I had to actually pull the wheel from the passenger seat to keep us from running a car off the road one morning. 

Her feelings on the issue are real and absolutely, unequivocally, irretrievably invalid.


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## youkiddingme (Jul 30, 2012)

I am well aware of the principles of "Marriage Builders". What must be understood is that if one spouse has Irrational feelings and thoughts .... it is THOSE THOUGHTS that need to be fixed and NOT the other spouse. 

YOu abuse people by making them responsible for YOUR rediculous feelings. That is abusive. Masturbating is not infidelity. Masturbating is NOT infidelity. Making Her responsible for his rediculous feelings on this is abusive TO HER.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes, Elegirl...it would be a shame if this man D's his wife over this issue, and they obviously aren't following an MB program (not saying everyone should, just pointing out that there are many "other" ways of handling marital conflicts).

I also agree he might be just looking for a reason to divorce her. And he might be going though an MLC or a mental health crisis.

But...if in the end, he is not crazy, is not having an MLC, and he divorces her over this issue...then even though that will be absolutely tragic for the wife and the kids and everyone else involved, he still has the right to do so. We can be shocked and saddened by it though, and I'm sure we will be if that is how this turns out.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> "
> If you don't consider your spouse's feelings as valid, then you might as well get divorced.


This is simply not true, not in the logical sense. All the range of feelings one can experience, some are valid or rational and some are not. This situation of masturbating being equal to betrayal is invalid because it is irrational. 

It is irrational for a spouse to demand or even request that the other not groom properly before going to work, even though it is based on feeling insecure, a perfectly rational feeling, but applied to an irrational point. The same holds true for a spouse who requests minute details of every conversation with a member of the opposite sex at the work place, valid feeling taken to an irrational point.

If your spouses insecurities and feeling are taken to an irrational point, validating them only makes things worse. You are enabling when you alter rational behavior due to irrational feelings.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Cletus said: "I know I've been on both sides of that one, and sometimes my feelings (and my wife's) are irrational and invalid.

We don't consider the next step divorce. We try to fix the problem. Sometimes just getting called out on the floor over your stupidity is all the humiliation it takes to fix the problem."


Right. But that didn't work here, did it?

Her husband wants to divorce her.

So either:

1. He is insane.

2. This is a smoke screen for some other reason he wants a divorce.

or...3. He REALLY DOES feel the betrayal he claims he does, and he really is going to divorce her.

Again...the rest of us saying "well *I* wouldn't do that/don't feel that way/don't agree with that"....doesn't change anything, doesn't help the wife or the husband, and doesn't really help other readers, either. You are simply just ganging up on this husband's feelings and calling him names. Helpful? I don't think so at all, but have at it.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, everyone gets their opinion, and the OP hearing them probably isn't going to hurt matters.
> 
> But it CAN hurt in these types of cases.
> 
> Because she needs to also hear that her H has his own feelings, which are valid. Since few other posters are saying this, I am saying it.


There is a difference between saying "her H has his own feelings, which are valid," and saying "his feelings of betrayal are valid." Yes to the latter, no to the former. They are real to him, but his feelings are not valid/workable for the marriage without partner consent. I get the feeling she's not able to give that consent. 

Asking her to accept her husband's feelings as valid could be damaging to her, I think. It's what led her to make that untenable promise in the first place. Asking her to see that her husband is convinced he's been betrayed is fair--but only if it's clear that HE is the one who needs help, not her. Obviously she is willing to work with him and getting professional advice, since she made a MC appointment and invited him. 





Faithful Wife said:


> The only way she has any hope of figuring this mess out, is if she understands that his feelings of betrayal are valid.


And I reiterate: I think she already acknowledged this and realizes that her husband does not want to come to terms with her difference in opinion on the matter. She's looking for advice/opinions on what to do beyond that. 



Faithful Wife said:


> For instance, Getting It, I think you had said that when you were LD, if your H had issued you an ultimatum, "more sex or divorce", that you may have ended up divorced. Becuase you said at that time, you just didn't really understand his point and would have thought he was just being controlling. This is basically the same thing. If the wife here doesn't want to acknowledge her husband's feelings of betrayal as valid, then she might end up divorced, and maybe that is what needs to happen.


Yes, but lack of sex was a symptom of much more complex problems we had for years, and I would have counted the divorce as justifiable based on any of those very common marital problems. It's not every day, however, that a spouse wants a divorce because his wife wants the autonomy to decide for herself whether or not to masturbate. The issues does matter. 



Faithful Wife said:


> At the same time, I'm not advising her at ALL to just accept this situation. I definitely hope she doesn't let him divorce her and then tell everyone it was a mutual decision.
> 
> But...if she is to listen to all the "yep, that is rediculous, he is a fool, he is wrong, it is not a betrayal, he needs help, he is insecure, he is controlling, he is crazy"....ok, fine. That might help her feel a little better for a moment. But will it stop her H from trying to divorce her over this? Nope.
> 
> That's where I'm trying to give her some other things to look at and think about.


Different perspectives are great; in this case, I thought she'd already covered this one.

At the end of the day: It is entirely okay for people to opine that staying married to someone like this is not a good option. It is entirely okay to opine that she could try to get to the bottom of it and find a way to stay married. 

It very well might be useful to the OP to see how many folks line up behind each of foresaid opines.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Anon: "If your spouses insecurities and feeling are taken to an irrational point...."

This seems to assume there is a handbook somewhere that clearly states what is irrational and what is not.

Yet there is no such handbook.

So who gets to decide where that point is?

Look - the wife in this sitch has every reason to be worried about her husband's real motives here.

But in the end, if it is exactly how it appears to be...and he D's her over this....then what does it matter if she thinks it was irrational or not? She'll be divorced, either way and his "irrational" feelings are the reason.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Cletus said: "I know I've been on both sides of that one, and sometimes my feelings (and my wife's) are irrational and invalid.
> 
> We don't consider the next step divorce. We try to fix the problem. Sometimes just getting called out on the floor over your stupidity is all the humiliation it takes to fix the problem."
> 
> ...


Thank you. Apology accepted.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Getting it: 'Yes, but lack of sex was a symptom of much more complex problems we had for years, and I would have counted the divorce as justifiable based on any of those very common marital problems. It's not every day, however, that a spouse wants a divorce because his wife wants the autonomy to decide for herself whether or not to masturbate. The issues does matter."

Yes it does. But we don't know the full story here. There may indeed be many other marital issues behind the husband's "issue".


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

I wonder what the OP is thinking and doing right now...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> It very well might be useful to the OP to see how many folks line up behind each of foresaid opines.


I have actually used this forum as a gauge of sorts in the past myself. Not that my relationship is a democracy, but getting enough feedback one way or another on a topic can pull you up short and force you to take stock in something you considered differently.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I Notice The Details said:


> I wonder what the OP is thinking and doing right now...


One would hope very carefully replacing the lube tube right about now...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Or meeting with her divorce attorney.

Or telling their kids that daddy is leaving mommy because mommy touched herself once.

Or booking plans for a tropical vacation.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Anon: "If your spouses insecurities and feeling are taken to an irrational point...."
> 
> This seems to assume there is a handbook somewhere that clearly states what is irrational and what is not.
> 
> ...


Deciding what is rational and what is not, is an exercise in normative analasis. Given our culture, educational and experiential background, we will find a vast majority of people will place the same answer here. Now if we were part of another culture, one in which a husband's control over his wife was accepted and expected, the rational argument might sway more in your favor, thus validating his feeling of betrayal. But we're not, we're in the west, where a woman has absolute control over her body.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I Notice The Details said:


> I wonder what the OP is thinking and doing right now...


:rofl:

Well, it is May after all....


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

okay, things are getting heated around here. Thank you everyone for your opinions. I wouldn't have sought this place out and asked the question if I wasn't prepared to get answers that didn't view my actions favourably. And I asked because sometimes we don't see things when we're hurt and angry. And I need to work out if there's points of view I'm not seeing or understanding. 

My H feelings are real, he is very upset. Which is why I agreed in the first place. He was really, really struggling. I care about him. He couldn't cope with the issue. There seemed no other way to resolve it but for me to agree. Maybe I shouldn't have. I definately shouldn't have gone back on my promise, but I thought maybe he'd had time to calmly think things through, settle down about it, and yes - I didn't think I'd get caught. I was being deceptive. I know, but he shouldn't have spied on me. Checked our room every day when he got home. I thought he was getting his clothes for a shower, or putting his shoes away, he was checking things every day. That's not healthy for him. To be acting like this, is not okay for him or me. And he is not mentally ill IMO.

I thought we had a good marriage. We don't have any major issues. I have a job, friends, family. I have a life outside the home. We've been together a long time. I've always been independent. This suited him when we were young. He would go out and be with his friends, I was okay with that. I would stay with the kids or take them out. He is a good father. I sometimes didn't think it was fair that he kept some of his 'wild, single life' ways, but he has so many other great qualities that I dealt with it. But as we've got older and the friends have drifted off, controlling tendencies have begun to creep in. I object to that. He knows that. That's why I suspect this is an insecurity/control thing.

I try to talk to him. Some of the comments said and what he's said back- 
Your mind is running away with you - Probably
Masturbation isn't cheating - Probably not, but thats the way I feel.
I've never given you any reason to think I don't love you and only you - I know, but I can't live with feeling like this
It's not fair that you tell me I can't touch my own body - I know it's not fair but that's the way I feel.
I shouldn't be spied on - I wouldn't have had to if it weren't for the things you do
This isn't a reason for divorce - Probably not, but it makes me feel so bad that it is. 
Do you want to talk to a counsellor about this - I will, but nothing anyone ever says will make me feel differently.

I am trying to work my way through this. But, for me, I just don't understand how he can through away our whole life and history over this. His feelings are valid. But I find them confusing and irrational. It's not like I'm dismissing him or his feelings. He just seems set on believing what he wants regardless of anything I say or do. 

It seems my only course of action is to try and promise him again, but I don't know whether he'll go for that since I broke my promise once, or he's divorcing me.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

But Anon...you weren't talking about this masturbation issue when you said "if your spouse's insecurities and feelings are taken to an irrational point", you were talking in general terms. You were talking about insecurites, not about a woman having absolute control over her body.

Let's not forget that she did agree not to MB, even though she didn't plan on actually not doing it.

Don't get me wrong...I would immediately head to my divorce attorney if I were the wife in this situation, because if my H was saying these same things after I made an error (in his eyes), I would not want to remain married either. As the wife said, she doesn't even know who this person is anymore. She is worried about him, and I think she should be.

But back to the subject though....I don't really care if every person on earth tried to tell me that some particular insecurity of mine was irrational, it wouldn't make me then suddenly be secure. If we could just shame everyone into not being insecure because their feelings are "irrational", then that would be great! No one would then be insecure anymore, yay! Not likely to happen.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> It seems my only course of action is to try and promise him again, but I don't know whether he'll go for that since I broke my promise once, or he's divorcing me.


Thanks for the update.

If you decide to go this route, you know that you have to really mean it if you promise to not do this anymore, right? You can't fake it this time. Either promise and figure out a way to keep it or don't promise that to which you cannot agree. 

Good luck, whatever happens.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

juno 42 said:


> okay, things are getting heated around here. Thank you everyone for your opinions. I wouldn't have sought this place out and asked the question if I wasn't prepared to get answers that didn't view my actions favourably. And I asked because sometimes we don't see things when we're hurt and angry. And I need to work out if there's points of view I'm not seeing or understanding.
> 
> My H feelings are real, he is very upset. Which is why I agreed in the first place. He was really, really struggling. I care about him. He couldn't cope with the issue. There seemed no other way to resolve it but for me to agree. Maybe I shouldn't have. I definately shouldn't have gone back on my promise, but I thought maybe he'd had time to calmly think things through, settle down about it, and yes - I didn't think I'd get caught. I was being deceptive. I know, but he shouldn't have spied on me. Checked our room every day when he got home. I thought he was getting his clothes for a shower, or putting his shoes away, he was checking things every day. That's not healthy for him. To be acting like this, is not okay for him or me. And he is not mentally ill IMO.
> 
> ...


If you are desperate to save this marriage, might you compromise and agree that as long as he is in therapy and MC, and working the program, you will refrain from touching yourself?

Juno, your husband has got some serious issues and he is laying them all at your feet. Whats next? Don't leave the house without me?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

juno...That's really sad. I'm sorry you're going through this. I hope you have a good support system around you?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> But Anon...you weren't talking about this masturbation issue when you said "if your spouse's insecurities and feelings are taken to an irrational point", you were talking in general terms. You were talking about insecurites, not about a woman having absolute control over her body.
> 
> *Yes, I was extending the example from masturbating to grooming to conversations. They are all examples of valid feelings taken to an irrational level.*
> 
> ...


Wow, did my comments really sound as if I was shaming?There is a big difference, IMO, between shaming and not buying into irrational thought patterns. No, I don't make a habit of validating irrational feelings, no matter what they're based on. But shaming?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"No, I don't make a habit of validating irrational feelings, no matter what they're based on. But shaming?"


To me it seems like shaming to ever tell any one else their feelings are "irrational", especially if you don't know the whole story. 

It is always ok to have the opinion that other's feelings are irrational, but to state it as if it is a fact, is shaming.

The husband has already said "maybe it is irrational but that is how I feel and it isn't going to change".

So....then what?

Even if it is irrational according to everyone else on earth, to that person, it is rational. Since that person is the only one who gets to decide how they feeling, to me it is shaming to try to make that person "see it differently".

Instead, other people should just take their own perogative to not engage with someone they consider irrational.


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## Thebes (Apr 10, 2013)

I have a hard time believing he would leave you over just that. He seems unreasonable to me to the point I have to wonder did he meet someone and this is just the best excuse he can come up with.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> "No, I don't make a habit of validating irrational feelings, no matter what they're based on. But shaming?"
> 
> 
> To me it seems like shaming to ever tell any one else their feelings are "irrational", especially if you don't know the whole story.
> ...



Oookay... But how does this acceptance work in the context of this forum, where people post and seek the thoughts opinions and advice of others? 

You are not the first person to throw that word at me on this forum, so I was intensely curious at how I come to target this categorization. Your explanation didn't make any sense to me. Particularly since you choose to throw the word at me and not to everyone else who has posted in this thread and did not agree with you. Or perhaps I missed something? Apologies if I did...

So, I guess we'll leave it at that.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Anon, several other people have said similar shaming verbiage, IMO, on this post and on this issue.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Sorry, you're wrong here. Not every man (or woman) chooses to masturbate. You speak for yourself, not every man. While I freely admit that the *majority* of men do, I also know that not *every* man does. And that my husband does not, doesn't make him any less of a man, or _human_, as you put it, than the fact that _you_ masturbate makes you a man/human.
> 
> Now, I do agree, however that this is a control issue. Especially if he badgered her into agreeing to it, and/or never gave an actual reason for his view on masturbation. It may be a trust issue. But what brought it on in the first place?
> 
> Btw, it wouldn't be a Dr. Phil show... it would be more geared for Maury Povich audience.


Sure it is <strong>true</strong> that not everybody <strong>masterbates</strong>, so I agree your point is WELL TAKEN, but what I find <strong>INTERESTING</strong> is that you point out that that you say <u>speak for yourself</u> to highlight my self-centered opinion when very subject matter HERE has everything to do with a guy imposing his moral believes onto another and invading her personal private space. How in the world is it ok to forbid someone from touching themselves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Getting it: 'Yes, but lack of sex was a symptom of much more complex problems we had for years, and I would have counted the divorce as justifiable based on any of those very common marital problems. It's not every day, however, that a spouse wants a divorce because his wife wants the autonomy to decide for herself whether or not to masturbate. The issues does matter."
> 
> Yes it does. But we don't know the full story here. There may indeed be many other marital issues behind the husband's "issue".


True of every.single.thing ever written on an open forum. I just assume that, for forum participants, this is understood.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Well, if we assume there is more to the story, then why assume the H is completely irrational?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well, if we assume there is more to the story, then why assume the H is completely irrational?


Because it is. It is irrational, in the presence of an otherwise healthy and vigorous sex life, to persuade a spouse to give up autonomy over their body. Furthermore, it is irrational to compare breaking THAT promise to a betrayal.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ok, well maybe the husband will suddenly turn rational and change his mind to the "correct" way of seeing things.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

mineforever said:


> Yes this is a control issue. Most men get turned on by a women masterbating. As long as your not doing it and neglecting him....he should not have an issue. If you are not turning him away...I say your good. My big guy found out I masterbate daily in the morning (I am very HD) now he likes to show up for the show...some times he helps and sometimes he just watches and drinks his coffee... ;-)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gee, I don't drink coffee. ... but after that, I'm gonna start!


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

okay so heres my question - although i feel this is irrational, if this really is the issue, should i agree to never masturbate again? Would you? Is this a slippery slope of control that you wouldnt accept? Would you put your spouses needs and feelings above something you feel is your fundamental right as an individual? In what otherwise is a good marriage with only the usual mundane life issues that normal couples encounter, what would you do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Well, it is May after all....


Exactly Babe!!!!!!!!!!! I hope she is getting busy and honoring May for the glorious month it is!


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well, if we assume there is more to the story, then why assume the H is completely irrational?


One does not "have to" assume that. 

But I do think that most people make a good faith effort to answer to the OP based on the information provided, and directed toward any specific questions or requests for opinions the OP might submit.

Not saying you are wrong for throwing a dissenting voice into the fray, but to continually or repetitively dissent on opinions that you find "not helpful" sort of makes it seem like you have an ax to grind beyond wanting to offer your own opinion. It also, judging by some of the more spirited responses here, can make you a target. It's good that you introduced the "husband's betrayal is real to him" theme. But I sort of feel that was pretty well understood by the OP and many posters, even if it wasn't dwelt upon. 

It's not that tangental dissent and discussion are not interesting, but I think when folks say the H is being irrational, they are not (necessarily) ALSO saying that he doesn't matter, should be disregarded, or left to wallow in his misery. The OP makes it abundantly clear that she doesn't feel this way. The man clearly needs help. Validating his view is not helping him, just like it's not helpful to tell a porn addict that their behavior is valid and it's up to their spouse to find a way to deal with it. The OP's husband has to own this problem. He has to understand that this is on him to overcome. 

The OP can choose how much she wants to participate in his learning to overcome or cope with this fear/discomfort over her masturbating. It's harder to council her on how she should support him here--perhaps that is best left to the MC to advise. 

Folks here are adamant about what they do know to be true: the OP is NOT WRONG in any way to feel that her H is behaving irrationally, and to not want to give up autonomy in order to satisfy his irrationality.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

juno 42 said:


> okay so heres my question - although i feel this is irrational, if this really is the issue, should i agree to never masturbate again? Would you? Is this a slippery slope of control that you wouldnt accept? Would you put your spouses needs and feelings above something you feel is your fundamental right as an individual? In what otherwise is a good marriage with only the usual mundane life issues that normal couples encounter, what would you do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I masturbate every day. I also have a lot of sex. I can't conceive of a way I would ever be able to keep this promise, so I would never make this promise.

Why does he want you to not touch yourself? Does he feel that he should be the only one to give you pleasure? Does he feel you should only get pleasure from his hand, mouth, knee, penis? What exactly is the reason why you are not to have any pleasure in your own body?


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> okay so heres my question - although i feel this is irrational, if this really is the issue, should i agree to never masturbate again? Would you? Is this a slippery slope of control that you wouldnt accept? Would you put your spouses needs and feelings above something you feel is your fundamental right as an individual? In what otherwise is a good marriage with only the usual mundane life issues that normal couples encounter, what would you do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If my wife asked me to make that agreement I would think its a joke / prank and probably laugh! It's so outlandish and preposterous to even imagine this question. We are talking about controlling another person's body. This is oppression...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Well to answer you question...if my husband asked this of me he had better be willing to satisfy me on a daily basis...when and where I want it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

My problem is I wouldn't make it. Tell me I can't do something and that just makes me want it even more.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

juno 42 said:


> okay so heres my question - although i feel this is irrational, if this really is the issue, should i agree to never masturbate again? Would you? Is this a slippery slope of control that you wouldnt accept? Would you put your spouses needs and feelings above something you feel is your fundamental right as an individual? In what otherwise is a good marriage with only the usual mundane life issues that normal couples encounter, what would you do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think he's being irrational as well. Would I make that promise.. I've never been put in that position. I don't know what I'd do. That's a tough spot to be in. Asking you to stop engaging in a behavior that hurts nothing.... but his feelings.

I don't think it's about control. I think he feels threatened... Or maybe he equates the practice as being that of a woman of low morals. Does he ever masturbate? Maybe he got caught when he was a child and it was extremely traumatic. Maybe he's trying to save your soul from burning in hell!!! 

That is awfully strong.... to throw away, by all reasonable standards, a happy marriage... over something that is in my mind, actually a positive. 

Is there anyway he'll talk to a counselor.. or anyone?

What if you agreed to it IF... he agreed to satisify you any time you wanted it... And proceed to wear his but out day and night... until he gave in and told you to "go ahead... take care of it yourself".


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## Strattec (Apr 27, 2013)

juno 42 said:


> I desperately need advice. My husband of 24years considers masturbation a betrayal. He made me promise not to about 2 years ago. I did, I thought it was stupid, I thought he was being unreasonable and he'd never find out anyway, so I promised. Well apparently he's been 'monitoring' our bedroom. He checks how things are placed, I kinda suspected I was being spied on. He came home the other day and I'd had the day off - and I'd placed the lube back in the drawer ever so slightly differently than it had been and I was busted. He yelled and said 'we're done!'. WTH???? Done? Over that? We've never threatened the other with divorce before. I need to make it clear this is not something I do often. Maybe every few months. We have no problems in the bedroom. Our sex life is about 2-4 times a week depending on our schedules. He does seem to ask me frequently if 'that was alright?' to which I constantly reassure him.
> I'm finding it hard to believe that he's prepared to leave an otherwise good relationship of 24years over this. He's prepared to hurt our teenage children with a divorce over this. I'm hurt, depressed, furious and embarrassed. I feel betrayed about being spied on to which he says I forced him to take that action. It's my behaviour that's brought us here.
> We had a screaming fight and I suggested that he needed to talk to someone - which he refused because it's my problem. I've told him I don't want to end our relationship but I can't make his decision for him. I stayed at my mothers for a couple of days (the kids didn't suspect anything because she's been unwell). Now I'm home, and I've basically ignored the whole issue, because as far as he's concerned I'm totally in the wrong and I should be apologizing. He wants to talk tomorrow. What the hell am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to say that hasn't already been said? Why does he have such an issue with this? As far as I can tell it's a control thing and nothing else. Why do I not understand this? Is this a man thing that I'm clueless about? Advice please.


:lol: Your husband's overdoing it. He should just be laid back. Big deal so you played with yourself. It's normal for people to do this.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

KendalMintcake said:


> Sure it is <strong>true</strong> that not everybody <strong>masterbates</strong>, so I agree your point is WELL TAKEN, but what I find <strong>INTERESTING</strong> is that you point out that that you say <u>speak for yourself</u> to highlight my self-centered opinion when very subject matter HERE has everything to do with a guy imposing his moral believes onto another and invading her personal private space. How in the world is it ok to forbid someone from touching themselves.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kendal, I wasn't saying "speak for yourself" in the context you seem to have taken., I was saying YOU speak for yourself, only... in reference to your assertion that if a man doesn't masturbate, then he's not human. I never once said it is ok for someone to forbid anyone else from touching themselves. Where in the world did you get that idea? :scratchhead:

I also said, a few times, that something is up with THIS guy because the whole thing doesn't add up. Hey, I could see if he said "Honey, when you masturbate, it makes me feel like [insert reason here]"...At least that way, she'd have something to work with. Hey, even if it was a religious thing, at least THAT would be something she could, potentially, work with. But just saying "I just don't like it." with no room for discussion? No, THAT is not ok, IMO.

At the same time, she said, basically, "if I can't, you can't"...and he, presumably, said "no problem" to that. Did he adhere to it? Maybe... maybe not. She never checked to verify. He did.

But, juno, was he checking all along, since you struck that deal? Or, did he have a "gut feeling" that you "relapsed"? If the former, then yes, MAJOR problem with him. If the latter, I'd suspect he picked up on something in your demeanor. I'm not saying his order is RIGHT... far from it. 

Now, juno, you also stated that you may have to just tell him you will comply if you wish to remain married to him. Be honest...do you REALLY think you can adhere to his stipulation, again? How long did it take you to start again after he issued his decree before? Tbh, I don't think he's right. I know, my opinion really makes no difference here lol. But this is coming from a woman who chose, on her own, not to masturbate... with a husband who chose the same for himself. It is NOT right for him to force you to comply. And, unless you WILL fully comply if he requires it, yet again... No, I really don't think it is right to completely bend to his will. There should be some sort of compromise. Like I said... there's more going on with him than just your masturbatory habits.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

I believe he was checking all along. I wasnt paying attention, but i know i must have suspected because i was trying to put things the way they were. Maybe that makes my deception worse because i was trying to hide it knowing he would blow his top. 
I dont know if i would keep to any new deal. If i made one i would be committed to trying. But im not sure if a deal is something i shoild consider which is why i havent offered to promise again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Sorry that's like promising never to eat dessert for the rest of your life.
He should not be asking you to promise you won't do it again, he needs help.


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## vspinkgrl (Dec 4, 2012)

Sorry, I'm posting a little late. I have read through this thread and would like the poster to know that my husband went through this as well.

He has checked placement of things and has even gone so far as to destroy sex toys. 
It is 100% an insecurity issue, because my husband was VERY insecure in the bedroom. And also very angry. Past situations in his sex life with other women, and too much indulging in my own past created a monster.

I don't think your husband is going to leave you over this, but he needs to seek out help and open up about the REAL problem. 

As long is there isn't a hindrance to a couple's sex life together, masturbation should not be withheld. And certainly shouldn't be used as criteria for a divorce. There are plenty of times where the act and thought of sex is just downright tiring and its easier to masturbate. And believe me when I say he is DEFINITELY masturbating. 
Do not give into his demands and firmly tell him that you will not stop masturbating, this is what I did and the less I gave into the fighting and silliness it just faded away and he accepted it. That as well as opening up more to each other sexually. Don't promise anything. I never make a promise without knowing why I am making it. Good luck.


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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

why is the terrible decision to throw it all away yours? you ask - should you give it up to save your marriage? why has this become your fault and your decision? would you go to a MC to discuss this?

I guess what it comes down to is not masturbation at all, but the fact that he is telling you to stop or else. You're not throwing away the marriage. he is. good luck to him finding a loving wife who has sex with him several times a week, and a woman who agrees to his terms and conditions.

I guess this is no help. I don't know what I would do in this situation. But I think if I did capitulate and agree to his terms (which you know he'll be having hidden cameras, or measuring the exact placement of things), I'm not sure I'd still be happy with the guy or still love him and I'd probably resent him for making me lose a piece of myself, which has nothing to do with masturbation at all.


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## youkiddingme (Jul 30, 2012)

Should you promise not to masturbate anymore? I would like to suggest that you promise to attend marital counseling to work through the issues of your marriage. I would not make ANY other promises at this time. Tell him that you are committed to working on your marriage and helping find satisfactory resolution.... but at this time that is the only promise you are making. Then the real issues can be worked through with a trained helper.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> okay so heres my question - although i feel this is irrational, if this really is the issue, should i agree to never masturbate again? Would you? Is this a slippery slope of control that you wouldnt accept? Would you put your spouses needs and feelings above something you feel is your fundamental right as an individual? In what otherwise is a good marriage with only the usual mundane life issues that normal couples encounter, what would you do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can you respect someone who asks you to make this promise? Can you respect him and his request since you don't know *why *he feels so strongly that masturbation is a betrayal and is like cheating and why this became such a big issue for him in the last couple of years after 20 years of marriage? Can you respect someone who doesn't respect your own integrity and sexuality?

If not, I suspect making the promise will only create resentment and will diminish your attraction for him. It's hard to be attracted to and loving toward someone you don't respect.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Juno...do you know why he has this issue? Is it a moral issue to him? A religious thing? Was he beaten up by an adult for masturbating when he was young? Is it because he thinks you also look at porn while masturbating?


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> My H feelings are real, he is very upset. Which is why I agreed in the first place. He was really, really struggling. I care about him. He couldn't cope with the issue. There seemed no other way to resolve it but for me to agree.


You were wrong about it then. You are wrong about it now.






> I sometimes didn't think it was fair that he kept some of his 'wild, single life' ways, but he has so many other great qualities that I dealt with it.


What?! Explain. Extreme hypocrisy siren is going off...




> But as we've got older and the friends have drifted off, controlling tendencies have begun to creep in. I object to that. He knows that. That's why I suspect this is an insecurity/control thing.
> 
> I try to talk to him. Some of the comments said and what he's said back-
> Your mind is running away with you - Probably
> ...


Translation: he knows it is his problem but expects you to accomodate. 



> It seems my only course of action is to try and promise him again, but I don't know whether he'll go for that since I broke my promise once, or he's divorcing me.


No, it isn't your only course of action. If you want to play the victim, that's your choice. 

The ultimatum should be going the other way: telling him he either needs to work on this control-freak problem of his or you leave him.


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## dusty4 (May 8, 2013)

juno 42 said:


> Why does he have such an issue with this?


The only thing I can guess at is that he knows you are fantasizing about someone else when masturbating.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

I forget if OP mentioned if she uses toys or porn or anything of that nature too. Maybe that could be his issue if that is the case. Forgive me if she mentioned it and I missed it...

So sorry things have gone this route OP. I hope you can find some solace somewhere.


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## Ladywriter (Mar 13, 2013)

juno 42 said:


> I desperately need advice. My husband of 24years considers masturbation a betrayal. He made me promise not to about 2 years ago. I did, I thought it was stupid, I thought he was being unreasonable and he'd never find out anyway, so I promised. Well apparently he's been 'monitoring' our bedroom. He checks how things are placed, I kinda suspected I was being spied on. He came home the other day and I'd had the day off - and I'd placed the lube back in the drawer ever so slightly differently than it had been and I was busted. He yelled and said 'we're done!'. WTH???? Done? Over that? We've never threatened the other with divorce before. I need to make it clear this is not something I do often. Maybe every few months. We have no problems in the bedroom. Our sex life is about 2-4 times a week depending on our schedules. He does seem to ask me frequently if 'that was alright?' to which I constantly reassure him.
> I'm finding it hard to believe that he's prepared to leave an otherwise good relationship of 24years over this. He's prepared to hurt our teenage children with a divorce over this. I'm hurt, depressed, furious and embarrassed. I feel betrayed about being spied on to which he says I forced him to take that action. It's my behaviour that's brought us here.
> We had a screaming fight and I suggested that he needed to talk to someone - which he refused because it's my problem. I've told him I don't want to end our relationship but I can't make his decision for him. I stayed at my mothers for a couple of days (the kids didn't suspect anything because she's been unwell). Now I'm home, and I've basically ignored the whole issue, because as far as he's concerned I'm totally in the wrong and I should be apologizing. He wants to talk tomorrow. What the hell am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to say that hasn't already been said? Why does he have such an issue with this? As far as I can tell it's a control thing and nothing else. Why do I not understand this? Is this a man thing that I'm clueless about? Advice please.


 OMG he has some real serious problems. We all do this. Years ago my parents and their etc would not speak about this stuff. I was told about sex by my Mum of course but all the rest was really left out, and I found out other ways hear and say etc. its a way of releasing tension isnt it. You have done nothing wrong. He needs therapy and is stuck in the old times. Sorry but being blunt.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> The only thing I can guess at is that he knows you are fantasizing about someone else when masturbating.


How does someone *know* that? I mean is he the thought police in addition to the lube police?


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

IsGirl3 said:


> why is the terrible decision to throw it all away yours? you ask - should you give it up to save your marriage? why has this become your fault and your decision? would you go to a MC to discuss this?
> 
> I guess this is no help. I don't know what I would do in this situation. But I think if I did capitulate and agree to his terms (which you know he'll be having hidden cameras, or measuring the exact placement of things), I'm not sure I'd still be happy with the guy or still love him and I'd probably resent him for making me lose a piece of myself, which has nothing to do with masturbation at all.


I already have an MC appt for tomorrow. He is coming, but I told him I would go with/without him. And, no, I'm not sure I can agree to his demands which is why I haven't offered any deal or compromise.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

notmarriedyet said:


> I forget if OP mentioned if she uses toys or porn or anything of that nature too. Maybe that could be his issue if that is the case. Forgive me if she mentioned it and I missed it...
> 
> So sorry things have gone this route OP. I hope you can find some solace somewhere.


There was toys which H brought into the bedroom, but they were thrown out 2 years ago, when this first became an issue. No toys, no porn. AND, he has admitted that HE masturbates but not very much. When I asked him why that was okay with him he said - I don't know. It just feels like a betrayal when you do it.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

vspinkgrl said:


> Sorry, I'm posting a little late. I have read through this thread and would like the poster to know that my husband went through this as well.
> 
> He has checked placement of things and has even gone so far as to destroy sex toys.
> It is 100% an insecurity issue, because my husband was VERY insecure in the bedroom. And also very angry. Past situations in his sex life with other women, and too much indulging in my own past created a monster.
> ...


Comforting to know I'm not the only one.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> You were wrong about it then. You are wrong about it now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well said. Even the part about me playing the victim. Some things for me to think about.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> There was toys which H brought into the bedroom, but they were thrown out 2 years ago, when this first became an issue. No toys, no porn. AND, he has admitted that HE masturbates but not very much. When I asked him why that was okay with him he said - I don't know. It just feels like a betrayal when you do it.


Why did this become an issue 2 years ago after all this time you two have been together? What happened 2 years ago? What was going on back then?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> There was toys which H brought into the bedroom, but they were thrown out 2 years ago, when this first became an issue. No toys, no porn. * AND, he has admitted that HE masturbates but not very much. When I asked him why that was okay with him he said - I don't know. It just feels like a betrayal when you do it.*


Did you ask him how he would feel if you said to him that it feels like betrayal when HE does it? Because, honestly, it is... IF you go by his "logic". If you are betraying him by not adhering to the agreement, then HE is also betraying YOU by not adhering to the SAME agreement. He doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's the old double standard... "I can do it, but you can't". No, do NOT offer not to masturbate. Don't even consider it at this point. Don't back down, either. If it's betrayal when you do it, then it's betrayal when he does. Stick to that, juno. 

Just to clarify... I'm not saying masturbation is a betrayal. I am ONLY saying that if he feels you doing it is betrayal, then him doing it is also betrayal... using that logic, and ONLY that logic. Hope that makes sense....


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

I actually think I may have worked this out. We had a talk last night and he said he feels 'alone and replaced'. It occurred to me that feeling alone may be a grief thing. He's had a lot of family death (family of 5 down to 2) in the last 10 years and serious family issues (children being left without parents etc), the most recent death being a couple of years ago. Is it possible that this is a grief response? Is my masturbation habits the target for him not getting grief counselling (which I strongly suggested at the time) and now it's morphed into this?????? Yeah??? No????? 
He can't control so much in his life, this is what he seeks to control? His feelings of being alone have become fixated on my M habits? 
I asked him if he thought this was an unresolved grief thing and his response was pretty emotional. No real talking but struggling to control his tears. 
Thoughts???? Am I being stupid?? Or is this a possibility??


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> * AND, he has admitted that HE masturbates* but not very much. When I asked him why that was okay with him he said - I don't know. It just feels like a betrayal when you do it.


The more pertinent question is why you allow yourself to be manipulated by this utter hypocrite.

You don't twist yourself into knots trying to empathize with someone so revoltingly unreasonable. You set down conditions. Either they meet them or you leave.


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

EntirelyDifferent said:


> :iagree:
> 
> This. I would be telling _everyone_, especially since he expected you to tell your friends and family it was mutual.
> I totally understand that people have a right to their feelings, but given his expectations when informing you of divorce, I feel like there is something else going on with him.


:iagree:
:iagree:
:iagree:


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Juno42 - I don't know if I think their is a link to the deaths in his family, what I do think is your husband is having some emotional issues. I am not sure of his age but he almost sound like a man going through a mid life crisis. I know when my big guy went through his he didn't go through it very gracefully... pretty much fell flat on his face. I would strongly suggest getting your husband some IC at the least and I would highly recommend some MC for the two of you to try and get to the bottom of what is really going on. Good luck to you, my prayers are with you.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> I asked him if he thought this was an unresolved grief thing and his response was pretty emotional. No real talking but struggling to control his tears.
> Thoughts???? Am I being stupid?? Or is this a possibility??


A lot of people have grief, that's no excuse, don't connect your own private masturbation with his inability to cope with death.

Make a contract stating you'll never touch yourself sexually again, then include a list of your own demands, something along these lines:


I will not turn off the a/c before starting the car.
I will not turn on the vent when taking a shower.
I will not, etc, etc.
You will not masturbate.
You will not look at women from the neck down (whatever).
etc
etc

You get the point. Show him you can be just as ridiculous as him in your demands (do it with a straight face though). Tell him you'll divorce him if he doesn't sign it now.

Take full control of this situation, don't let him feel like he's making the demands and you're not able to comply, YOU make the demands and tell him YOU'RE leaving if *HE* doesn't change. What have you got to lose? You're leaving anyway, you might as well do it with dignity and pride.

Take control and spin this around until he's so dizzy he doesn't know if he's coming or going.

*Stop playing HIS game.*

T


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

mineforever said:


> Juno42 - I don't know if I think their is a link to the deaths in his family, what I do think is your husband is having some emotional issues. I am not sure of his age but he almost sound like a man going through a mid life crisis. I know when my big guy went through his he didn't go through it very gracefully... pretty much fell flat on his face. I would strongly suggest getting your husband some IC at the least and I would highly recommend some MC for the two of you to try and get to the bottom of what is really going on. Good luck to you, my prayers are with you.


Thank you. He's in his early forties. Maybe this is a midlife crisis of some sort. If it is, I know he's gonna fall on his face, and I know I'm not the type of person to take him back. Which is one of the reasons I'm trying to let him make his decision, but I want him to stop and think it through first. There would be no going back for me.


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

mineforever said:


> Well to answer you question...if my husband asked this of me he had better be willing to satisfy me on a daily basis...when and where I want it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I still wouldn't agree to a promise even with this. It is none of his dang business if she wants to masturbate or not, especially since he is getting plenty of sex. He is feeling a loss of control and is using this to control his wife. I still cannot believe this thread is even real. There has to be way more to this story. And this can't be the only thing he is controlling her with. I'm sure he masturbates, too, since 98% of guys do and the other 2% are really good liars. (edit: I just read that he admitted to it - HA!). And to the poster here that said her husband doesn't masturbate, I had to laugh. I know several wives who think that, and wouldn't they just be surprised to find out the truth!

I've seen many controlled relationships. She is being controlled. It isn't about sex. It is about control and him feeling out of control. He wants her to promise again and he will set up a hidden camera or something and spy on her until he catches her again. His control over her makes him feel powerful. Using something like masturbation is perfect, since it is embarrassing for her and something that she doesn't necessarily want to tell the world. 

He is using the divorce card to control her, too. Two powerful things right there. My guess is that she doesn't even realize just how many things in their married life he controls. Finances? Decisions? Purchases? I'm sure the list is long. 

His control is unacceptable. I don't care if it is rational or irrational. It is unacceptable and she should not bow to him any longer, nor make any promises or deals.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

juno 42 said:


> I actually think I may have worked this out. We had a talk last night and he said he feels 'alone and replaced'. It occurred to me that feeling alone may be a grief thing. He's had a lot of family death (family of 5 down to 2) in the last 10 years and serious family issues (children being left without parents etc), the most recent death being a couple of years ago. Is it possible that this is a grief response? Is my masturbation habits the target for him not getting grief counselling (which I strongly suggested at the time) and now it's morphed into this?????? Yeah??? No?????
> He can't control so much in his life, this is what he seeks to control? His feelings of being alone have become fixated on my M habits?
> I asked him if he thought this was an unresolved grief thing and his response was pretty emotional. No real talking but struggling to control his tears.
> Thoughts???? Am I being stupid?? Or is this a possibility??


I don't know about the grief and feeling alone is the reason for him trying to control you M.

It sounds like your conversation with him has tapped into a problem. Find a depression evaluation test online and see if you thing he's experiencing this. Also have him take it. He might be seriously depressed.

If I were you I'd just tell him that you are not going to promise any things about M nor do not expect him to not do it. Instead concentrait on this new info you found out.


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## SouthernMiss (Apr 25, 2013)

Wow, this has been quite the interesting thread.

I am not a mental health professional. I would, however, literally bet a lot of my own money that your husband is having a major emotional issue that is manifesting in this bizarre way.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, my ex-husband was also going through some mid-life emotional issues near the end of our marriage. Instead of forbidding masturbation though, he demanded I do it. In front of him. All the time. To the exclusion of real sex. 

Under no circumstances, in your shoes, would I make any other deals with your husband...if he had an emotional issues surrounding masturbation in general that he acknowledged weren't rational or fair...but was willing to see a counselor? I would, as a gesture of love, refrain from masturbating until we could work on the issue with a professional. No, I wouldn't be required to do so. But I tend to think you sometimes have to accommodate your partner...at least in the short term...even when it doesn't seem fair...to keep the marriage together. 

However, your husband doesn't have a NO MASTURBATION policy. Your husband has an emotional problem...he wants the right to demand you can't touch your own body - on pain of divorce - or he will leave you and break up your children's family? BUT he himself masturbates? That last part...that he masturbates himself...is OUTRAGEOUS. For all the obvious reasons. And the inconsistency lends further to my belief your husband has some emotional problems that need to be addressed professionally.

I hope he doesn't throw away an otherwise good marriage over these emotional problems he's having. But if he does, you don't hold any significant blame. Should you have promised you wouldn't masturbate and then continue to masturbate? No. But you shouldn't have ever been asked to do so. So it's really a wash.

The fact that he masturbates while going ballistic if you do...checking every day...waiting to bust you? Very disturbing.

I hope your counselor is a good one.


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

Any person, man or woman, who feels like they can dictate when, or if, their partner can masturbate, has such serious issues that I wonder if they can eveer be "fixed". 

An insecure person is poison to a relationship. When someone is so insecure in themselves and a relationship that they concern themselves with wether or not their partner is masturbating, that is such a "red flag" that speaks to so gravely more serious issues, it's not even funny.

Masturbation is a normal...NORMAL part of being a sexual person. Someone who is not okay with that, is NOT normal, and needs to be viewed with an extremely cautious eye. Like can be said for someone who never does it. My question is "why the hell not?". Do they not like sex?

Personally, the more my W masturbates, the better. Because the more she does it, the more I know she's, for one, a sexual being, and for two, the more satisfied she is with our sex life. Masturbation out of frustration may be once a week. The old lady is "rubbing one out" once every couple of days. And the frequency of her masturbation directly correlates to how great the sex has been for her. The better the sex, the more she masturbates.

I aim to have her masturbating daily!


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

donny64 said:


> Masturbation is a normal...NORMAL part of being a sexual person. Someone who is not okay with that, is NOT normal, and needs to be viewed with an extremely cautious eye. *Like can be said for someone who never does it. My question is "why the hell not?". Do they not like sex?*


I won't argue the fact that OP's husband's behavior is not normal. I totally agree with you there. But, the above in bold stood out to me. You ask "why the hell not?" and "Do they not like sex?"... Yes, some of us who do not masturbate actually LOVE sex. I cannot say I have NEVER masturbated. However, for me, when I did, I had no desire to have sex. It DECREASED my interest in sex. So, I choose not to because I want to have that connection with my husband. Everyone is different. Everyone chooses to, or not to, for different reasons. But just know that just because someone doesn't masturbate, it doesn't mean they don't like sex. Sometimes, they don't because they DO like sex and, like me, they have no interest in it if they masturbate.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Juno, I think it a sign of how much you love your husband that you are trying so hard to understand what is essentially not understandable.

Childhood abandonment can have very deep scar tissue formed and perhaps the betrayal of you masturbating is similar to the betray of a parent abandoning a child. However, understanding the possible links do not make his POV any more rational.

Dont give in to his demands, don't even entertain them. If he is fixating on betrayal equals abandonment that is an issue HE and only HE can work through. By giving in, you placate that terror of abandonment, but only temporarily. You have fed the monster and now it will grow to other areas of irrational control.

He needs help working through those issues and placating him, even temporarily, will only reinforce his need to avoid abandonment/betrayal.

Good Luck at MC today. Don't be too timid to bring up issues. It won't work if either of you avoid the elephant in the room.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Many many women on TAM have said they were willing to divorce over their husbands porn use...I guess it is possible for your husband to do so over your masterbation.....

It is an insecurity and control issue, but In this case the shoe is on the other foot....it is the husband being controlling and stupid over an issue of basic human sexuality......

I have never seen a porn hater relent, so I see little chance your husband will......

It is a shame to see a couple break up over something so stupid.....


the woodchuck


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Woodchuck, I think these are two different issues. Control over one's own body is very different than a spouse hating, thus trying to control the use of porn, however moderate or not it may be.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Woodchuck, I think these are two different issues. Control over one's own body is very different than a spouse hating, thus trying to control the use of porn, however moderate or not it may be.


Could you be more specific?

Husband hates wife using vibrator and masturbating.

Wife hates husband watching porn and masturbating.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

hambone said:


> Could you be more specific?
> 
> Husband hates wife using vibrator and masturbating.
> 
> Wife hates husband watching porn and masturbating.


Easy. Most of the time, when she is saying no to porn, she's fine with pictures of herself that he uses as "aids" or even videos of them together. Usually, masturbation isn't even a problem, unless it takes away from their sex life. 

If comparing a vibrator to something, it would make more sense to say a fleshlight than porn. The majority (of men, at least) on here compare porn to romance novels. So which is it? Porn = romance novels? Or porn = vibrator? IMO, toy = toy... vibe = fleshlight.

Anyway, the majority of the ladies saying "no porn!" aren't saying "you can't masturbate!"... they are saying "use something other than porn. I'm even willing to give you pics/videos of myself for you to use." That's the difference.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Starting a "porn hater" versus "masturbator hater" debate is really not going to help the OP and will just get this thread derailed. It's also something that's been beaten to death like a dead horse over various threads. As Maricha points out many feel there's a difference, even if others disagree. 

And - it doesn't exactly apply in this situation. The husband is working to impose a rule on the OP that himself agreed to, but does not follow. However - he does not view his behavior as the same. And further its something that cropped up suddenly after years of marriage, for unknown reasons - possibly as a source of control from a bad grief response or other outside pressures. The big problem here is the hypocrisy. 

Hence the suggestion about MC/IC to get to the bottom of the whole thing.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Anyway, the majority of the ladies saying "no porn!" aren't saying "you can't masturbate!"... they are saying "use something other than porn. I'm even willing to give you pics/videos of myself for you to use." That's the difference.


They are? I've missed most, in fact any of them making that statement. I know my wife wouldn't entertain that idea in a million years. 

All you're really saying is that masturbation through fantasy or with accompanying visual stimulation from a mate is morally superior to masturbation with accompanying visual stimulation of someone not your mate. Some of us don't find that distinction to be very meaningful, and certainly no worse nor fundamentally different than replacing your husband's penis with a battery compartment on steroids.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Juno, this whole thing is so very sad. To me it seems clear he is in a mental crisis. "Why" a crisis occurs is sometimes impossible to pinpoint. But one thing that is almost always true for someone in a crisis is that they will act in ways that baffle everyone around them, yet they will stand firm in their convictions. This is one of the tip offs that a mental shift has occured.

I hope you don't end up divorced....I also hope you have a lot of support in real life as this has got to be really hard.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> They are? I've missed most, in fact any of them making that statement. I know my wife wouldn't entertain that idea in a million years.
> 
> All you're really saying is that masturbation through fantasy or with accompanying visual stimulation from a mate is morally superior to masturbation with accompanying visual stimulation of someone not your mate. Some of us don't find that distinction to be very meaningful, and certainly no worse nor fundamentally different than replacing your husband's penis with a battery compartment on steroids.


I'm sorry. Perhaps I should have taken my own advice and said "the majority of the ladies _on here_ who are against porn"? Guess you did miss those threads/discussions. But, as Starstarfish said, it's not a pertinent argument to THIS thread. THIS thread is about masturbating, period. Not about vibes, not about porn. It's about a man trying to make his wife agree not to touch herself, when he, himself, does it...and sees nothing wrong with that. Hopefully, the counselor can get to the root of the problem.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Easy. Most of the time, when she is saying no to porn, she's fine with pictures of herself that he uses as "aids" or even videos of them together. Usually, masturbation isn't even a problem, unless it takes away from their sex life.
> 
> If comparing a vibrator to something, it would make more sense to say a fleshlight than porn. The majority (of men, at least) on here compare porn to romance novels. So which is it? Porn = romance novels? Or porn = vibrator? IMO, toy = toy... vibe = fleshlight.
> 
> Anyway, the majority of the ladies saying "no porn!" aren't saying "you can't masturbate!"... they are saying "use something other than porn. I'm even willing to give you pics/videos of myself for you to use." That's the difference.


I think you're splitting hairs. In both cases.. they are masturbating and using the aide of their choice to help. 

Whether it's a vibe, flashlight, porn on a magazine, porn on the computer, a romance novel, lotion, or anything else to enhance the experience the principle is the same.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Easy. Most of the time, when she is saying no to porn, she's fine with pictures of herself that he uses as "aids" or even videos of them together. Usually, masturbation isn't even a problem, unless it takes away from their sex life.
> 
> If comparing a vibrator to something, it would make more sense to say a fleshlight than porn. The majority (of men, at least) on here compare porn to romance novels. So which is it? Porn = romance novels? Or porn = vibrator? IMO, toy = toy... vibe = fleshlight.
> 
> Anyway, the majority of the ladies saying "no porn!" aren't saying "you can't masturbate!"... they are saying "use something other than porn. I'm even willing to give you pics/videos of myself for you to use." That's the difference.


First place, I didn't bring this issue up. 

Second, I'm new to this forum. I've not read all those threads over the years. 

I think you're splitting hairs. And aide is an aide.... People have different preferences. 

I understand that porn is a hot button for some/most women. IMO, the guys aren't emotionally involved with the porn stars. It's nothing more than stimulation... watching the flesh move. Men are visual....

Are there men how hate romance novels... to the degree that women hate porn? 

The bottom line for the OP is that her husband... for what ever reason feels threatened. IMO... in a very sweet, loving way, she needs to tell him no. If he's that insecure... I think he will be overwhelmed with the thought of going back out into the dating world and dealing with all the unknowns. If she will be patient and politely stand her ground... he'll give in.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"Are there men how hate romance novels... to the degree that women hate porn?"


Yes, there are.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Although it makes him a hypocrite I'm not conviced the fact he masturbates is particularly relevant. For whatever reason he may choose not to masturbate. It doesn't give him the moral authority to then dictate his wife can't either. 

The fact he memorizes the exact position of the lube to determine when it's been moved is telling to me. In my passive aggressive way, I would be tempted to move it every day just to mess with his head.

I think many women are the victims of societal pressure that inhibits their sexuality. They don't touch themselves when they are younger, they don't experience many partners, they don't perform certain sex acts with their partner...because they've grown up being told it makes them bad. Then we wonder why so many struggle with the ability to truly look forward to and enjoy sex and to orgasm. 

In my mind a woman who is comfortable enough with herself to truly enjoy sex in its many different forms is a woman that I would want to be with. Were a women to tell me she did not masturbate I would be reluctant to get involved with her. It would make me think she's either not that sexual or is inhibited.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

I agree with those who have said he has an underlying emotional issue. There are symptoms of depression, OCD, control issues.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> Although it makes him a hypocrite I'm not conviced the fact he masturbates is particularly relevant. For whatever reason he may choose not to masturbate. It doesn't give him the moral authority to then dictate his wife can't either.


Actually, it IS relevant. When he told his wife that he didn't want her masturbating, she told him the same... she didn't want him to. He AGREED to it. The difference? She assumed he would anyway, but never felt the inclination to verify. They both broke the agreement, ridiculous as it was. So, yes, it IS relevant. 



MaritimeGuy said:


> The fact he memorizes the exact position of the lube to determine when it's been moved is telling to me. In my passive aggressive way, I would be tempted to move it every day just to mess with his head.


Great minds... I would too. :rofl:



MaritimeGuy said:


> I think many women are the victims of societal pressure that inhibits their sexuality. They don't touch themselves when they are younger, they don't experience many partners, they don't perform certain sex acts with their partner...because they've grown up being told it makes them bad. Then we wonder why so many struggle with the ability to truly look forward to and enjoy sex and to orgasm.


But the exact opposite happens for some as well. Some don't touch themselves, are virgins/have few partners, and don't do certain sex acts... yet still look forward to and enjoy sex as well as orgasms. 



MaritimeGuy said:


> In my mind a woman who is comfortable enough with herself to truly enjoy sex in its many different forms is a woman that I would want to be with. Were a women to tell me she did not masturbate I would be reluctant to get involved with her. It would make me think she's either not that sexual or is inhibited.


Believe me, even those who choose not to masturbate (and I am not saying ALL, of course, nor can I speak for those who have NEVER done it), some do love sex and aren't inhibited. Some are up for pretty much anything. But, there are some who, like me, cannot have sex AND masturbate.... I prefer sex with my husband.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

juno 42 said:


> I actually think I may have worked this out. We had a talk last night and he said he feels 'alone and replaced'. It occurred to me that feeling alone may be a grief thing. He's had a lot of family death (family of 5 down to 2) in the last 10 years and serious family issues (children being left without parents etc), the most recent death being a couple of years ago. Is it possible that this is a grief response? Is my masturbation habits the target for him not getting grief counselling (which I strongly suggested at the time) and now it's morphed into this?????? Yeah??? No?????
> He can't control so much in his life, this is what he seeks to control? His feelings of being alone have become fixated on my M habits?
> I asked him if he thought this was an unresolved grief thing and his response was pretty emotional. No real talking but struggling to control his tears.
> Thoughts???? Am I being stupid?? Or is this a possibility??


I'm with Anon Pink here--I'm very impressed with your willingness to try and understand your husband and pay attention to his anxiety on this matter. 

The fact that he admits to feeling "alone and replaced" is telling, and a good place to start with trying to unravel how those feelings translated into a need to control your masturbation habits. It could be related to the family trauma you referenced. I think you need counseling together and he probably needs individual counseling to really figure this out and find a plan for moving forward with your marriage. 

I hope that when you said, "I think I may have worked this out," that it doesn't mean you are not going ahead with your MC appointment. Even is your H comes to understand where his issue is coming from, he is still going to need help coping with the fact that he can't make you promise not to masturbate, and that his expectations on the matter are irrational. And, of course, you will need help coping with him as well. 

Good luck to you. Your willingness to work on this with your H is admirable. If you succeed in getting through this to making your marriage healthy again, I hope your husband comes to realize how lucky he was to be married to someone like you.


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## All of a sudden (Jan 24, 2013)

All this masturbation talk, made me go masturbate! Lol


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

hambone said:


> Could you be more specific?
> 
> Husband hates wife using vibrator and masturbating.
> 
> Wife hates husband watching porn and masturbating.


I can see how these scenarios may seem the same but the essential difference is, according to the threads Ive seen, women don't care so much about husband masturbating, they care about him watching some other woman having sex and fantasizing about that. Leaving the wife out of the erotic scenario entirely.

I must say, unless it is excessive, a woman all up in arms about porn use needs to get a grip, so you won't find my support on those threads ever!

A woman (Except Maricha!!!!!!) can masturbate, reach orgasm, then be ready to go again and again and again and again. She takes nothing away from their sexual life together. 

A man watches porn and masturbates. Most men or maybe just a lot of men would not be ready to go again unless they've had a rest period. He is being visually stimulated by someone not his wife. Even though the wife might be thinking of the pool boy, she isn't using a tangible image to get off, she is using images in her mind.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Actually, there is such a thing, for both men and women, of masturbating while being focused on your own body and how good it feels, or for instance, simply looking at yourself in the mirror during it. In other words, some people masturbate to make love to their own body, not to just "get off" while imagining or looking at pictures of someone else.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Actually, there is such a thing, for both men and women, of masturbating while being focused on your own body and how good it feels, or for instance, simply looking at yourself in the mirror during it. In other words, some people masturbate to make love to their own body, not to just "get off" while imagining or looking at pictures of someone else.


I love doing this! It helps with self esteem a great deal. 

Also, I hope OP doesn't get divorced. With some of the things she's explained about her husbands behavior, it sounds like he may have some issue with compulsion. 

I myself am bipolar and minimally obsessive- compulsive. I have quirky behaviors as she explained, like certain fans having to be on, etc. 

I hope OPs husband decides to go to IC as well as MC.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Actually, there is such a thing, for both men and women, of masturbating while being focused on your own body and how good it feels, or for instance, simply looking at yourself in the mirror during it. In other words, some people masturbate to make love to their own body, not to just "get off" while imagining or looking at pictures of someone else.


Too true!

But don't let Mr. betrayal know that, then he'll have something concrete to focus on. You love yourself more than me!


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

Based on her posts, it sounds like her husband is determined to get a divorce. She needs to do whatever she can right now to preserve her own dignity and self respect. An attempt at MC sounds reasonable, but that won't fix it, and in the end she'll discover that much more is in play here then just masturbation.

Juno, regardless of what happens in MC today, you need to take full charge of this thing; if he wants a divorce, slam him with one, maybe that'll pop him out of whatever screwed up mindset he's in, and if it doesn't, then I doubt there's anything you could have done to fix this.

There's something deeply wrong here, either he's not telling you everything or you aren't telling us everything.

T


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

All of a sudden said:


> All this masturbation talk, made me go masturbate! Lol


I hope you did a chalk outline of the lube before you used it so you could make sure to put it back precisely where you got it from.


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

All of a sudden said:


> All this masturbation talk, made me go masturbate! Lol


You picked the right month!...May is Masturbation Month. :rofl:


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Actually, it IS relevant. When he told his wife that he didn't want her masturbating, she told him the same... she didn't want him to. He AGREED to it. The difference? She assumed he would anyway, but never felt the inclination to verify. They both broke the agreement, ridiculous as it was. So, yes, it IS relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree you're probably right. By taking the stance I did I could very well be missing out on somebody really special in that department. 

I'm very happy with the woman I'm with who masturbates both on her own and when she's with me. :smthumbup: I by no means see it as a threat.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I can see how these scenarios may seem the same but the essential difference is, according to the threads Ive seen, women don't care so much about husband masturbating, they care about him watching some other woman having sex and fantasizing about that. Leaving the wife out of the erotic scenario entirely.
> 
> I must say, unless it is excessive, a woman all up in arms about porn use needs to get a grip, so you won't find my support on those threads ever!
> 
> ...


OMG! I'm a man trapped in a woman's body! 
:rofl::rofl:


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

LOL a Breakthrough!


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Woodchuck, I think these are two different issues. Control over one's own body is very different than a spouse hating, thus trying to control the use of porn, however moderate or not it may be.


Of course you do.....But they are not... 

the woodchuck


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Again - start another thread to debate that.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> I actually think I may have worked this out. We had a talk last night and he said he feels 'alone and replaced'. It occurred to me that feeling alone may be a grief thing. He's had a lot of family death (family of 5 down to 2) in the last 10 years and serious family issues (children being left without parents etc), the most recent death being a couple of years ago. Is it possible that this is a grief response? Is my masturbation habits the target for him not getting grief counselling (which I strongly suggested at the time) and now it's morphed into this?????? Yeah??? No?????
> He can't control so much in his life, this is what he seeks to control? His feelings of being alone have become fixated on my M habits?
> I asked him if he thought this was an unresolved grief thing and his response was pretty emotional. No real talking but struggling to control his tears.
> Thoughts???? Am I being stupid?? Or is this a possibility??


It's good that you're considering what this masturbation issue might mean to him. I wouldn't be able to say whether you're on the right track about a link to his grief, but it's linked to something. 



> We had a talk last night and he said he feels 'alone and replaced'.


That seems to be something he should try to work through with a counselor since he's unable to articulate or communicate to you why he feels that way when you masturbate. He doesn't have to feel alone and replaced if he can face whatever those issues mean to him and work through them.

He might not be ready to face those issues if they're deep and painful. He's brought this to the point of divorce so he's going really far to avoid investigating the underlying issue.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> d
> It is always ok to have the opinion that other's feelings are irrational, but to state it as if it is a fact, is shaming.
> ...
> Even if it is irrational according to everyone else on earth, to that person, it is rational. Since that person is the only one who gets to decide how they feeling, to me it is shaming to try to make that person "see it differently".
> ...


Sorry to pile on, but to me, it is self-evidently irrational, absurd, and unfair for a man to threaten to leave his wife over such harmless behaviour, especially when it is the SAME behaviour that he himself admits to engaging in. 

If we're not allowed to say so, then what are we doing on this forum? What's the point of this forum? Should it merely be a long (and very boring) string of comments where everyone simply agrees with everyone else (or remains silent if they don't agree), and as a result nobody learns anything?

You also spoke earlier of the husband's feelings being "valid". I'm not quite sure what that means. What are "invalid" feelings? It seems to me that the husband's feelings are "invalid" if there ever were such a thing.

I frankly got rather angry reading about the husband in this thread... he may have some traumas in his life put at some point he has to pull his head out of his a** and realize that he's being ridiculous. Hopefully he is able to see the error of his ways soon.


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

MarriedManInHis40s said:


> Sorry to pile on, but to me, it is self-evidently irrational, absurd, and unfair for a man to threaten to leave his wife over such harmless behaviour, especially when it is the SAME behaviour that he himself admits to engaging in.
> 
> If we're not allowed to say so, then what are we doing on this forum? What's the point of this forum? Should it merely be a long (and very boring) string of comments where everyone simply agrees with everyone else (or remains silent if they don't agree), and as a result nobody learns anything?
> 
> ...


I got so mad I wanted to spank his face. I need to get away from this thread -- it totally screws with my emotions . Not only that, after reading this thread I wanted to masturbate something fierce. Way too much sexual tension in this thread for me. Who needs books like 50 Shades of Grey when you have threads like this. :scratchhead: :rofl:


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

The human mind is a very convoluted place...For a man to equate his wife masturbating to being replaced is surely not too strange to be believed.....My wife masturbating only gets me aroused, I have actually encouraged it for years. I hope your husband can get over this issue, and get your marriage back on track...

the woodchuck


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Woodchuck said:


> *The human mind is a very convoluted place...For a man to equate his wife masturbating to being replaced is surely not too strange to be believed*.....My wife masturbating only gets me aroused, I have actually encouraged it for years. I hope your husband can get over this issue, and get your marriage back on track...
> 
> the woodchuck


I think that this is similar to the way some women feel when their husbands masterbate to porn... she is being replaced.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Married man said: "If we're not allowed to say so, then what are we doing on this forum? What's the point of this forum? Should it merely be a long (and very boring) string of comments where everyone simply agrees with everyone else (or remains silent if they don't agree), and as a result nobody learns anything?"



Where did anyone say no one was allowed to say anything? Just because I provided an alternate opinion, doesn't mean I ever said no one else should say their opinion. C'mon, you know that wasn't said. If I did NOT throw in my opinion, then this post WOULD have been a long string of comments where every agrees with everyone else.

So why be so upset about MY one opinion? Who cares, right? Just read it and forget it and move along or post your own or whatever.

The thing is, there were 200 posts here with 95% of them saying this husband is psycho, sick, controlling, insane, an idiot, a weirdo, on and on and on....and my few posts saying "but his feelings are valid even if they don't seem so to us". I feel I was adding balance here. And what I posted is based on a very famous and experienced MARRIAGE EXPERT'S stated points of view. I didn't just pull stuff outta thin air. What do you not get about this?

If you want to just have a witch hunt about this "psycho, controlling, insane, weirdo" husband, have at it! But I will reserve my right to add another idea in to the pit, while others are apparently just throwing their anger at their own situtions toward this poor husband who doesn't even know thousands of people are judging him as insane.


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Thousands of people are judging him as insane because he obviously is insane.

Every feeling is not valid. 
And it's ridiculous to treat every feeling as if it is.

When someone is clearly insane, validating their insanity does nothing to help the situation.
Nothing.



Faithful Wife said:


> Married man said: "If we're not allowed to say so, then what are we doing on this forum? What's the point of this forum? Should it merely be a long (and very boring) string of comments where everyone simply agrees with everyone else (or remains silent if they don't agree), and as a result nobody learns anything?"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

I wrote this guy off as a nut way early in the game, but Juno's most recent post indicates that it may not be as simple as that, and this guy has other emotional turmoil going on (of the non-insane variety) that just happened to manifest itself in a bizarre way.

I think he's a hurting guy, not insane, and it sounds like they're working it out. Odds are good in this one, especially if he sees a grief counselor.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes, so to keep the 95% ratio where it is, my one post will be matched by 11 posts exclaiming how insane this man is.

Which is fine...I'm just pointing out the witch hunt for what it is.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> But I will reserve my right to add another idea in to the pit, while others are apparently just throwing their anger at their own situtions toward this poor husband who doesn't even know thousands of people are judging him as insane.


Why the need to insinuate untoward motivations behind anyone's opinion? 

I just fundamentally disagree with you. I do not share your position that all feelings are valid, period. Should I decide to just start throwing my anger around, you will know it, in no unclear terms.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, so to keep the 95% ratio where it is, my one post will be matched by 11 posts exclaiming how insane this man is.
> 
> Which is fine...I'm just pointing out the witch hunt for what it is.


And if he condoned baby killing it would be a perfect 12 for 12 condemning him. Sometimes the lone voice in the wilderness is right, and sometimes wrong, but the fact itself has no relevant predictive power. 

You're not a martyr here. This is just a forum for opinion, and you're just in a huge minority on this one.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sigh....Cletus...I never said nor pretended I am a martyr. Why go straight to insults? Wow.


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## xrsm002 (May 23, 2013)

Hi I am new on here been married 4 years this August, my wife's and I sex life is very boring and has been for the past 3 yrs. She is a little over weight but that doesn't really bug me. I give her compliments all the time, I even bought her books in how to be sexual towards your partner. I guess it didn't help that I wasn't a virgin and she was when we got married. I felt it was best to be open with her about my sex life before we got married so there were not surprises. But lately the sex has been the same I always make the first move it's always in the same position and same place. I've hinted several times to get its no longer satisfying to me and we should try something new. Also what do y'all think if oral sex I like it and have given it to her she likes it, but when I ask her to reciprocate she says I don't want to put my mouth in it because of other girls mouths being in it, yet she lets me out it in her. I even showered. Speaking of showers she won't shower with me either. We have been to a counselor and he was helping, but we have recently moved to another city. I have thought about divorce and or just cheating on here. Any help would be great. I really don't want to do either. So I've just stuck to looking at porn and be pleasures that way. I'd much rather be getting intimate with my wife them myself, she knows I look at it too.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Sigh....Cletus...I never said nor pretended I am a martyr. Why go straight to insults? Wow.


Sorry if I misunderstood.

Your tone seems to be "this is a witch hunt, I'm the only one standing up for righteous marital principles (which I don't pull out of thin air) and everyone is piling on this husband as an expression of their own marital strife".

If martyr is wrong, that's not an insult. It's at worst a mischaracterization. That sure felt like what you were implying to me. And my feelings are valid, are they not?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yep, your feelings of wanting to mock me are valid.

Done with this thread. Good luck to OP, I hope things work out, or that if you end up divorced, you find good support.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Where did anyone say no one was allowed to say anything? Just because I provided an alternate opinion, doesn't mean I ever said no one else should say their opinion.


The angry tone of your comments is implying exactly that, and THAT is what I am responding to (and that's what everyone else is picking up on too), not to your disagreement itself.

Just look at the angry, charged language you’ve been using here. 
- We’re conducting a “witch hunt” (wow, just by commenting on a public forum -at the express invitation of the OP - about somebody we will never know?). 
- Your repeated emphasis that “95%” of the comments here are against the husband (like there was a rule that forum comments had to be 50/50 for each side). 
- Your sarcastic comment earlier that “maybe the husband will come around to the ‘correct’ view”. (like, who would ever dare to suggest that somebody might have the wrong view of something?)
- Your lament for “this poor husband who doesn't even know thousands of people are judging him as insane.” (even though, again, this is an anonymous public forum, we have no idea who he is and he's probably never even going to see this).
- your insistence that we can't comment because we don't know the husband's side of the story (but how are we supposed to know that in a forum like this? If this place has to run like a courtroom with careful rules of evidence and testimony before any comment can be made then we might as well shut it down).

You’re a lone voice in the wilderness and you seem really angry about it, either because there are so many people seeing the situation the same way, or because our language is too strident, or whatever.

I mean, honestly, I don't really care, but I just find your behaviour so ironic that I have to comment on it.



> but his feelings are valid even if they don't seem so to us


Again, I ask you: what does it even MEAN to say “his feelings are valid”? Does it mean that those are his actual feelings? Well of course they are, but by that definition everyone’s feelings are valid: the husband’s, mine, yours, Hitler’s.



> I feel I was adding balance here. And what I posted is based on a very famous and experienced MARRIAGE EXPERT'S stated points of view.


This isn't just about being uncomfortable with your spouse masturbating. I'm pretty sure there aren't too many "marriage experts" out there who think that it's cool to spy on your wife, or to blow up a 20 year marriage over this issue without any attempt whatsoever at MC/IC (especially when the husband seems to have no problem with doing the same behaviour himself).



> while others are apparently just throwing their anger at their own situtions


This is ironic, given that it seems to many of us that that's what you're doing.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I think that this is similar to the way some women feel when their husbands masterbate to porn... she is being replaced.


I'd agree that if masturbation is affecting the frequency or quality of sex, then it's a problem. But if it's not, then it's not really about "being replaced", is it? Do we really need to police what our spouses think about, 24/7? Is it even possible?

If I recall correctly, the OP said that she was good to go whenever he was, so I don't think that's the issue.


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

youkiddingme said:


> Should you promise not to masturbate anymore? I would like to suggest that you promise to attend marital counseling to work through the issues of your marriage. I would not make ANY other promises at this time. Tell him that you are committed to working on your marriage and helping find satisfactory resolution.... but at this time that is the only promise you are making. Then the real issues can be worked through with a trained helper.


Exactly... wth... sounds to me that we are missing something for him to snap like that... But a broken promise does suck, been there done that... paid the price, although it was more of a bigger deal the one I broke (not infidelity but sexually related). I did ask my husband though once in order to improve our sex life to stop masturbating, I felt like if he wanted it he should come to me... maybe your hubs feels like that... maybe he considers it cheating? Has he told you the reasons why it bothers him, or just simply that it bothers him? So bizzare. I really think something else is going on, I hate to say it but are you sure he isn't cheating, just seems so crazy to end a relationship over that.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Wow. Heated responses. Which I expected, and I also expected to get opposing views. I actually appreciate those that are giving minority views so that I can hear the other side of this. 

Went to the MC. I was pleased H seemed comfortable with her and opened up. Nothing really got resolved. Spent 1 1/2 hours discussing all parts of our life and we probably looked like total idiots. As I said, apart from this we have the normal marriage humdrum issues. Nothing serious. To clarify - H said he has masturbated but NOT since we made our deal. I tend to believe him. He said he knows this is unfair, and not logical but it's the way he feels. And if he could change the way he feels he would, but he cant. He now DOES NOT want to end our relationship but find a way through this. 
24 hours later I just feel kinda depressed. I'm not really seeing that this issue will ever be resolved. Although he is agreeing to talk about it, I really don't feel he'll ever change his mind. This is not me feeling sorry for myself, this is knowing someone for over two decades and being able to predict behaviour. So, in my mind his position is clear. The only thing I have to decide is - what is my position? Do I let this end our relationship, or concede to his feelings (invalid or not). It's all just depressing at this point. My H and I are in MC over my 'mild' IMO masturbation habits. WTF???? How the hell did I get here? Does it even matter how I got here? What really matters is what am I prepared/not prepared to do now I am here. 
I'm not sure if it's because I'm numb and depressed today, but I do know I'm having pretty negative feelings towards him and our relationship right now. I'm having trouble even looking at him. I'm having trouble justifying going to MC just to flog a dead horse over an issue he can't/won't (not sure which) change his views on. And why should he change his views? Who made me right and him wrong? My head hurts. Sorry to be so pathetic today.


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

Silly question maybe....but have you ever tried touching yourself while you two are having sex? Literally, while he is doing his thing, have you masturbated during? 

It might help him to accept your sexuality more. I do this with my H, and he enjoys it a lot now. Took some warming up over the years for him to be comfortable with the idea, but he loves it now. It might even help with your sex drive and you will be more satisfied


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Your husband is either in the midst of an emotional/psychological break...

Or he truly wants to divorce you and just came up with the single most lame, contrived, laughable reason imaginable to justify his decision to dump you.

Either way do not, even for one second, think this is about your masturbating. IT IS NOT.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I think that this is similar to the way some women feel when their husbands masterbate to porn... she is being replaced.


I would agree, if the issue were her using a vibrator or her fantasising about another man (and acting like she needed it etc). However masturbation by itself should not be an issue, unless they really are replacing you and turning down sex.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MarriedManInHis40s said:


> I'd agree that if masturbation is affecting the frequency or quality of sex, then it's a problem. But if it's not, then it's not really about "being replaced", is it? Do we really need to police what our spouses think about, 24/7? Is it even possible?
> 
> If I recall correctly, the OP said that she was good to go whenever he was, so I don't think that's the issue.


I was replying to a specific poster, about a point he made in his post.

.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> Wow. Heated responses. Which I expected, and I also expected to get opposing views. I actually appreciate those that are giving minority views so that I can hear the other side of this.
> 
> Went to the MC. I was pleased H seemed comfortable with her and opened up. Nothing really got resolved. Spent 1 1/2 hours discussing all parts of our life and we probably looked like total idiots. As I said, apart from this we have the normal marriage humdrum issues. Nothing serious. To clarify - H said he has masturbated but NOT since we made our deal. I tend to believe him. He said he knows this is unfair, and not logical but it's the way he feels. And if he could change the way he feels he would, but he cant. He now DOES NOT want to end our relationship but find a way through this.
> 24 hours later I just feel kinda depressed. I'm not really seeing that this issue will ever be resolved. Although he is agreeing to talk about it, I really don't feel he'll ever change his mind. This is not me feeling sorry for myself, this is knowing someone for over two decades and being able to predict behaviour. So, in my mind his position is clear. The only thing I have to decide is - what is my position? Do I let this end our relationship, or concede to his feelings (invalid or not). It's all just depressing at this point. My H and I are in MC over my 'mild' IMO masturbation habits. WTF???? How the hell did I get here? Does it even matter how I got here? What really matters is what am I prepared/not prepared to do now I am here.
> I'm not sure if it's because I'm numb and depressed today, but I do know I'm having pretty negative feelings towards him and our relationship right now. I'm having trouble even looking at him. I'm having trouble justifying going to MC just to flog a dead horse over an issue he can't/won't (not sure which) change his views on. And why should he change his views? Who made me right and him wrong? My head hurts. Sorry to be so pathetic today.


Your expectation is based upon having caved in to his unreasonable demands in the past. So it is actually your own behavior you are relying on here, not his. 

When we rescue people from their idiotic behavior, there is no reason for them to change. 

You have to make him put on his big boy pants and face this extremely stupid, irrational control-freak fear. If he was half a man he would watch you masturbate in order to get over this. Instead he's acting like a child. 

I have a two-year-old who is mortally afraid of flies for some reason and I can either facilitate that fear or hold him up to the window with me, holding him close and helping him get over it. He's getting over it, like the little two year old man he is. Your husband disgusts me.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> Wow. Heated responses. Which I expected, and I also expected to get opposing views. I actually appreciate those that are giving minority views so that I can hear the other side of this.
> 
> Went to the MC. I was pleased H seemed comfortable with her and opened up. Nothing really got resolved. Spent 1 1/2 hours discussing all parts of our life and we probably looked like total idiots. As I said, apart from this we have the normal marriage humdrum issues. Nothing serious. To clarify - H said he has masturbated but NOT since we made our deal. I tend to believe him. He said he knows this is unfair, and not logical but it's the way he feels. And if he could change the way he feels he would, but he cant. He now DOES NOT want to end our relationship but find a way through this.
> 24 hours later I just feel kinda depressed. I'm not really seeing that this issue will ever be resolved. Although he is agreeing to talk about it, I really don't feel he'll ever change his mind. This is not me feeling sorry for myself, this is knowing someone for over two decades and being able to predict behaviour. So, in my mind his position is clear. The only thing I have to decide is - what is my position? Do I let this end our relationship, or concede to his feelings (invalid or not). It's all just depressing at this point. My H and I are in MC over my 'mild' IMO masturbation habits. WTF???? How the hell did I get here? Does it even matter how I got here? What really matters is what am I prepared/not prepared to do now I am here.
> I'm not sure if it's because I'm numb and depressed today, but I do know I'm having pretty negative feelings towards him and our relationship right now. I'm having trouble even looking at him. I'm having trouble justifying going to MC just to flog a dead horse over an issue he can't/won't (not sure which) change his views on. And why should he change his views? Who made me right and him wrong? My head hurts. Sorry to be so pathetic today.


My wife never had a single problem with me masturbating. I was open and unapologetic about that fact before we wed. I didn't try to hide it whatsoever in our marriage.

That was until suddenly, a couple years in, she registerd issues. She started making subtle little comments that suggested she was a little...jealous of my alone time. I believe it was after I was going through a particularly high libido time, having lots of sex but also indulging in lots of masturbation. I didn't address it initially, because in my mind I just did not want to face that my cool, amazing, free and open wife would suddenly be developing this ludicrous, prudish view on self pleasure. But after a few off hand quips I finally faced it.

I asked if she had an issue with it. She sheepishly copped to it. She finally suggested that it gets in the way of our sex life. This was a lie, and I told her straight out that this was a lie, and so I wanted to know what was beneath it. We dug, and dug, and dug some more. I had a feeling I knew what the root cause was, because I know my wife extremely well. She finally admitted to what I thought the core issue was; a self esteem problem. She had gained some weight, and in general was feeling less sexy about herself, and in turn just projected that on me. She began to weep as all this stuff came out about how bad, and unattractive, she was feeling. I knew that this had become an issue for her, but I didn't know it was that bad. We talked openly about it, and set on working through it together.

What I did do:

- Assure her that I was still attracted to her
- Explain that my increase in masturbation was about me enjoying my own sexuality, and not anything to do with her
- Listen to her express her fears, anxieties, and self loathing
- Encourage her to face and battle the causes of her overeating, and take her health more seriously
- Love on her endlessly
- Be patient with a little less sex while she worked out her body image issues

What I did not do:

- Never, not once, apologize for enjoying masturbation
- Make a single promise to curb, much less end, masturbating
- Take her projections about my behavior seriously
- Indulge or feed her need to make me feel bad because she was feeling bad
- Allow her to continue believing that because she felt bad about how she look, I felt bad about it too

It all worked out. If you can get to the root of things, it typically does. But you should never apologize for something like this, and you should have NEVER promised to refrain if you felt it was an unreasonable request. Masturbation is healthy, and it can an important part of your sexuality, your sexual identity and health. Your partner does not have a right to ask you to stop unless you both agree that it's not right for your marriage.

The issues in your husband that have him actually being willing to throw away a good marriage are maybe deeper than you think. The WORST thing you can do is take this at face value. You need to find out what is broken in your husband so you can find a way to help him heal. Otherwise this will stay about masturbation, and even if you continue on you will begin to resent him. And eventually his need to control your body will expand into other corners of your life.

This whole ordeal isn't even about you. It's about how your husband feels about _himself_.


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## SkyHigh (Jun 17, 2012)

Sounds like your H struggles from feelings of inadequacy. 

Not exactly doing the right thing by taking it out on you or reverting back to the Middle Ages.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> Wow. Heated responses. Which I expected, and I also expected to get opposing views. I actually appreciate those that are giving minority views so that I can hear the other side of this.
> 
> Went to the MC. I was pleased H seemed comfortable with her and opened up. Nothing really got resolved. Spent 1 1/2 hours discussing all parts of our life and we probably looked like total idiots. As I said, apart from this we have the normal marriage humdrum issues. Nothing serious. To clarify - H said he has masturbated but NOT since we made our deal. I tend to believe him. He said he knows this is unfair, and not logical but it's the way he feels. And if he could change the way he feels he would, but he cant. He now DOES NOT want to end our relationship but find a way through this.
> 24 hours later I just feel kinda depressed. I'm not really seeing that this issue will ever be resolved. Although he is agreeing to talk about it, I really don't feel he'll ever change his mind. This is not me feeling sorry for myself, this is knowing someone for over two decades and being able to predict behaviour. So, in my mind his position is clear. The only thing I have to decide is - what is my position? Do I let this end our relationship, or concede to his feelings (invalid or not). It's all just depressing at this point. My H and I are in MC over my 'mild' IMO masturbation habits. WTF???? How the hell did I get here? Does it even matter how I got here? What really matters is what am I prepared/not prepared to do now I am here.
> I'm not sure if it's because I'm numb and depressed today, but I do know I'm having pretty negative feelings towards him and our relationship right now. I'm having trouble even looking at him. I'm having trouble justifying going to MC just to flog a dead horse over an issue he can't/won't (not sure which) change his views on. And why should he change his views? Who made me right and him wrong? My head hurts. Sorry to be so pathetic today.


Juno, you are NOT going to get everything resolved in just one MC session. Trust me when I say that MC's have seen/heard it all. Your marriage may seem "boring" by comparison to others seeking counseling, but you have just as valid a reason for going as anyone else. Keep going. See what comes out there. You might be surprised. His views about it MAY actually change. Or, you might get to the root and see that there IS a legit reason for his request. That said, do not acquiesce to his demand. Don't let him make the decision for you. Make it yourself. But give the MC time. One session is just the STARTING point. It's where you figure out where to begin.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I would not look at things so black and white saying this is how he feels and you can never change it.

True, he probably will not ever like you masturbating.... But there are many things my wife does that I don't like... But I am not divorcing her. Look at it like is is an insecurity that he has to learn to manage.

Jaquen provided a great post... You should come up with an action plan if you want to keep your marriage... IF you want to keep it you can't get mad at him... you have to decide and realize that your husband has a certain probelm that he himself has to work through, and that it is his problem and not your problem..

But by doing what you can to build him up, make him feel attractive, admired, loved.... It becomes harder for him to allow his insecurity to outweigh the "goodness" he is receiving.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> Went to the MC. I was pleased H seemed comfortable with her and opened up. Nothing really got resolved. Spent 1 1/2 hours discussing all parts of our life and we probably looked like total idiots. As I said, apart from this we have the normal marriage humdrum issues. Nothing serious. To clarify - H said he has masturbated but NOT since we made our deal. I tend to believe him. He said he knows this is unfair, and not logical but it's the way he feels. And if he could change the way he feels he would, but he cant. He now DOES NOT want to end our relationship but find a way through this.


How does he think you'll find a way through this if he "can't" change how he feels? Does he expect you to do all the changing?

Is he willing to explore WHY he feels this way, suddenly in the past two years? Is he willing to dig into his feelings with the MC and talk about it?


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

I don't remember you mentioning in the inital post a "deal" where he DID NOT masturbate either.... but maybe I read it wrong. I thougth it was all about you.. makes more sense now he is mad. It's like having an agreement that neither of you will cheat, and he holds up his end, but you don't, or you have an agreement to save money, and you spend and he doesn't... you could compare to any number of things, but it is a betrayal of trust, if you couldn't control yourself you shouldn't have made the agreement to begin with. (I have learned this the hard way in my marriage too) When two spouses come to a compromise and one works hard and the other does not (regardless of the issue at hand and how mundane it may seem) Now you have to re-earn his trust, your promises mean nothing to him and somewhere I think there is more going on in your marriage than simply this. When you say the regular problems of a marriage, what do you mean.... I'm just asking because I think that your relationship can be repared but only if you give the full story.


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## Bonnie (Nov 16, 2012)

too funny


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

livelaughlovenow said:


> I don't remember you mentioning in the inital post a "deal" where he DID NOT masturbate either.... but maybe I read it wrong. I thougth it was all about you.. makes more sense now he is mad. It's like having an agreement that neither of you will cheat, and he holds up his end, but you don't, or you have an agreement to save money, and you spend and he doesn't... you could compare to any number of things, but it is a betrayal of trust, if you couldn't control yourself you shouldn't have made the agreement to begin with. (I have learned this the hard way in my marriage too) When two spouses come to a compromise and one works hard and the other does not (regardless of the issue at hand and how mundane it may seem) Now you have to re-earn his trust, your promises mean nothing to him and somewhere I think there is more going on in your marriage than simply this. When you say the regular problems of a marriage, what do you mean.... I'm just asking because I think that your relationship can be repared but only if you give the full story.


I'm not sure that it's so clear cut about his agreement to not masterbate. 

He used to masterbate but informed her that her masterbating bothered him. His masterbation did not bother her. She only asked for him to pledge to not masterbate again if she was being forced into making that promise.

She has no way of knowing if he has masterbated since their agreement 2 years ago. She only has his word. I'm not sure that I would believe it coming from a man who masterbated prior.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I'm not sure that it's so clear cut about his agreement to not masterbate.
> 
> He used to masterbate but informed her that her masterbating bothered him. His masterbation did not bother her. She only asked for him to pledge to not masterbate again if she was being forced into making that promise.
> 
> She has no way of knowing if he has masterbated since their agreement 2 years ago. She only has his word. *I'm not sure that I would believe it coming from a man who masterbated prior.*


Would you apply that to any man who masturbated then chose not to? Say, a teen who did then after marrying, stopped? Or just this man?

As for the OP's sitruation, yes, she stated (in a later post) that they made the agreement. He said he wanted her to stop. She said ok, only if he did. She assumed he would have caved...assumed... because she never checked up on him. So why not take his word? Because he did it and said he would stop, yet she chose to do it after agreeing not to? Because she couldn't, that would mean he must've done it too, and is lying? 

FTR, I still think it's ridiculous to make an agreement like that, even if there is the slightest chance you won't be able to honor it. But to assume...sorry, not believe... a man who previously masturbated wouldn't stick to an agreement he has made is ridiculous, IMO.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Would you apply that to any man who masturbated then chose not to? Say, a teen who did then after marrying, stopped? Or just this man?
> 
> As for the OP's sitruation, yes, she stated (in a later post) that they made the agreement. He said he wanted her to stop. She said ok, only if he did. She assumed he would have caved...assumed... because she never checked up on him. So why not take his word? Because he did it and said he would stop, yet she chose to do it after agreeing not to? Because she couldn't, that would mean he must've done it too, and is lying?
> 
> FTR, I still think it's ridiculous to make an agreement like that, even if there is the slightest chance you won't be able to honor it. But to assume...sorry, not believe... a man who previously masturbated wouldn't stick to an agreement he has made is ridiculous, IMO.


I think that anyone, male or female, who is used to masturbating over a long period of time would find it hard to just stop doing it.

If people make an agreement to not do something but it can never be verified if the all parties did or did not do it, how valid is the agreement? It sets up exactly what the OP is facing now.. a husband to took to monitoring the position of lubricant to verify that his wife was or was not breaking the promise. 

Since she did not snoop on him, he can say all day that he kept to the promise. He cannot provide it, nor can she prove that he did.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

michzz said:


> If I were you I'd toss out that silly agreement--unilaterally.
> 
> *If he can, you can.*
> 
> If he can't handle the controlling manipulation ending? Toss him out too.





juno 42 said:


> There was toys which H brought into the bedroom, but they were thrown out 2 years ago, when this first became an issue. No toys, no porn. *AND, he has admitted that HE masturbates but not very much.* When I asked him why that was okay with him he said - I don't know. It just feels like a betrayal when you do it.


She clarified it further in her latest post:



juno 42 said:


> Wow. Heated responses. Which I expected, and I also expected to get opposing views. I actually appreciate those that are giving minority views so that I can hear the other side of this.
> 
> Went to the MC. I was pleased H seemed comfortable with her and opened up. Nothing really got resolved. Spent 1 1/2 hours discussing all parts of our life and we probably looked like total idiots. As I said, apart from this we have the normal marriage humdrum issues. Nothing serious. *To clarify - H said he has masturbated but NOT since we made our deal.* I tend to believe him. He said he knows this is unfair, and not logical but it's the way he feels. And if he could change the way he feels he would, but he cant. He now DOES NOT want to end our relationship but find a way through this.
> 24 hours later I just feel kinda depressed. I'm not really seeing that this issue will ever be resolved. Although he is agreeing to talk about it, I really don't feel he'll ever change his mind. This is not me feeling sorry for myself, this is knowing someone for over two decades and being able to predict behaviour. So, in my mind his position is clear. The only thing I have to decide is - what is my position? Do I let this end our relationship, or concede to his feelings (invalid or not). It's all just depressing at this point. My H and I are in MC over my 'mild' IMO masturbation habits. WTF???? How the hell did I get here? Does it even matter how I got here? What really matters is what am I prepared/not prepared to do now I am here.
> I'm not sure if it's because I'm numb and depressed today, but I do know I'm having pretty negative feelings towards him and our relationship right now. I'm having trouble even looking at him. I'm having trouble justifying going to MC just to flog a dead horse over an issue he can't/won't (not sure which) change his views on. And why should he change his views? Who made me right and him wrong? My head hurts. Sorry to be so pathetic today.


So, since they made the deal, he has not, but did before.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I don't know if I believe he hasn't masturbated for 2 years. I'd lean toward not believing him because of this:



> *AND, he has admitted that HE masturbates but not very much. When I asked him why that was okay with him he said - I don't know. It just feels like a betrayal when you do it.*


He has a double standard about masturbation. It's ok if he does it, but it's a betrayal if she does it. And he knows he has this double standard but insists on it anyway.

So, someone who holds that double standard might think it won't hurt if he does it, even though he said he wouldn't.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I think that anyone, male or female, who is used to masturbating over a long period of time would find it hard to just stop doing it.
> 
> If people make an agreement to not do something but it can never be verified if the all parties did or did not do it, how valid is the agreement? It sets up exactly what the OP is facing now.. a husband to took to monitoring the position of lubricant to verify that his wife was or was not breaking the promise.
> 
> Since she did not snoop on him, he can say all day that he kept to the promise. He cannot provide it, nor can she prove that he did.


Maybe they would. I have no clue how many years my husband masturbated before we met. Maybe he started at age 10 and did it for 7 years. Maybe it wasn't until he was 15-16 and only a year or two. Should I then not believe him when he said he didn't, and still doesn't? I don't look for clues, never have. Never any verification searched for, nor found. But I believe him. Even now, I have no need to search for any clues. We're always together, except when I go shopping or he goes for a doctor appointment. One of us is always with the kids. So should I not have believed my husband was telling the truth about it? 

In the end, it really doesn't matter whether you or I believe he is telling the truth. She does. Even in the midst of all of this, she feels no need to doubt his sincerity and the fact that he doesn't masturbate. Really, that's all that matters here, as far as that particular subject. She believes him.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

norajane said:


> I don't know if I believe he hasn't masturbated for 2 years. I'd lean toward not believing him because of this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting. I saw that as meaning he thought it was ok then, but since he requested that she not do it, he was ok with stopping his own.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

michzz said:


> It doesn't change the manipulative nature of the agreement.
> 
> And I personally wouldn't put up with it.
> 
> As others noted, he isn't against his own jollies, just hers.


I'm not disagreeing that it was manipulative, nor that it was ridiculous. I was only pointing out that she clarified it, herself, later on.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Your expectation is based upon having caved in to his unreasonable demands in the past. So it is actually your own behavior you are relying on here, not his.
> 
> When we rescue people from their idiotic behavior, there is no reason for them to change.
> 
> ...


You're right. I need to be careful my reactions and not 'rescue' him so he doesn't have to face this. I'm gonna get hammered for this - but yes, I am disgusted by my husbands behaviour as well, but I do realize this is my anger response so I haven't said this to him and made things worse, but he knows.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

juno 42 said:


> He said he knows this is unfair, and not logical but it's the way he feels. And if he could change the way he feels he would, but he cant.


Wow.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

jaquen said:


> My wife never had a single problem with me masturbating. I was open and unapologetic about that fact before we wed. I didn't try to hide it whatsoever in our marriage.
> 
> That was until suddenly, a couple years in, she registerd issues. She started making subtle little comments that suggested she was a little...jealous of my alone time. I believe it was after I was going through a particularly high libido time, having lots of sex but also indulging in lots of masturbation. I didn't address it initially, because in my mind I just did not want to face that my cool, amazing, free and open wife would suddenly be developing this ludicrous, prudish view on self pleasure. But after a few off hand quips I finally faced it.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for sharing your story. It's really helpful. I do believe that this isn't about me, and I've told him that - in a sensitive way. I haven't brought up a new 'deal' because I don't think that's the way to go with this. Your advice is really appreciated.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

The thought of my wife masturbating is a total turn on. I don't know what is wrong with your husband and doubt it can be fixed.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Juno, you are NOT going to get everything resolved in just one MC session. Trust me when I say that MC's have seen/heard it all. Your marriage may seem "boring" by comparison to others seeking counseling, but you have just as valid a reason for going as anyone else. Keep going. See what comes out there. You might be surprised. His views about it MAY actually change. Or, you might get to the root and see that there IS a legit reason for his request. That said, do not acquiesce to his demand. Don't let him make the decision for you. Make it yourself. But give the MC time. One session is just the STARTING point. It's where you figure out where to begin.


I am going to continue with MC. I think I just became depressed and overwhelmed yesterday. I just can't believe we're in MC over this - 'My name is Juno and my H is considering divorcing me because I masturbate on average every couple of months, although you'll have to ask him the frequency because he has 'ways' of knowing.' It used to be about the bedroom door - we leave a shoe in the door jam because the cat likes to snooze on the bed and we don't want the door to shut all the way. Has the shoe been moved? Is it repositioned? But then I do shut the door when the dog is in the house because she peed on the bed one day. But I only shut the door if I remember. So his plan A isn't always reliable so plan B is the position of the lube, and I'm sure there's a plan C, D and others???? I'm a guest in my own home. My movements are monitored. And I'm fairly certain my things have been sifted through and examined, although the only basis I have for that is his behaviour not any proof. I'm in the twilight zone here. I seem to be expected to be mindful and considerate of his feelings, meanwhile I'm living in the bloody big brother house. No, I did not sign up for a reality show - this is supposed to be my home. 

Sorry, rant over. I'm a bit emotional ATM.


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

I hope you tell him all of that at your next MC appointment. I'm so sorry. It really sounds creepy all laid out like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> You're right. I need to be careful my reactions and not 'rescue' him so he doesn't have to face this. I'm gonna get hammered for this - but yes, I am disgusted by my husbands behaviour as well, but I do realize this is my anger response so I haven't said this to him and made things worse, but he knows.


Manipulative people often throw tantrums in order to bully their opponent into conceding. A close cousin tactic is just outlasting you. On into the night, wearing you down.

To defeat these, you calmly lay down your terms, then stop talking. No discussion. 

In the event of something like this, he can check all he wants, and the response to "busting" you needs to be "so what". 

He has successfully gotten in your face, provoked your emotions, and tricked you into war. What do you do with a child throwing a temper tanrtum? You don't let them get to you, and the worst thing of all is conceding in order to stop the tantrum. 

It would be much better to smile at him and explain that you know exactly what he wants, to provoke you, and he isn't going to get it.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

To me the big issue here is not necessarily that her husband has an issue with her masturbating. That's kind of a subjective thing; it's a personal belief system that I wouldn't want to accuse her husband flat out of being wrong about. BUT- the fact that he would consider divorce, harming innocent children, extended families, himself, his wife, etc...over his wife doing something that he doesn't like twice a month- that's just flat out selfish and insane.

Her husband is playing with some serious fire right now. If he is not careful, eventually she is going to get sick of this childish behaviour and then REAL problems ensue.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

juno 42 said:


> I am going to continue with MC. I think I just became depressed and overwhelmed yesterday. I just can't believe we're in MC over this - 'My name is Juno and my H is considering divorcing me because I masturbate on average every couple of months, although you'll have to ask him the frequency because he has 'ways' of knowing.' It used to be about the bedroom door - we leave a shoe in the door jam because the cat likes to snooze on the bed and we don't want the door to shut all the way. Has the shoe been moved? Is it repositioned? But then I do shut the door when the dog is in the house because she peed on the bed one day. But I only shut the door if I remember. So his plan A isn't always reliable so plan B is the position of the lube, and I'm sure there's a plan C, D and others???? I'm a guest in my own home. My movements are monitored. And I'm fairly certain my things have been sifted through and examined, although the only basis I have for that is his behaviour not any proof. I'm in the twilight zone here. I seem to be expected to be mindful and considerate of his feelings, meanwhile I'm living in the bloody big brother house. No, I did not sign up for a reality show - this is supposed to be my home.
> 
> Sorry, rant over. I'm a bit emotional ATM.


I think that you need to search your bedroom for hidden cameras and VARs. Seriously.... a tube of lubricant can be moved just by dusting and many other, non-masterbate things.

I think he's doing something more then just checking where the lub is.

From now on, just move everything around all the time.. it will drive him nuts and eventually he'll have to give up.. unless he's recording you with audio or video.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

ginger-snap said:


> I hope you tell him all of that at your next MC appointment. I'm so sorry. It really sounds creepy all laid out like that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is creepy. I thought this was 'our' house, I thought we each respected each others independence and privacy. Now I feel like it is 'his' house, 'his' bedroom, and 'his' rules. I thought, when he got home after me he was going in our room to get his clothes for a shower or put his shoes away. I'm not suspiscious. It completely went over my head for a long time that what he is really doing is surveying the house for 'clues'. WTH??? Why doesn't he just staple a camera to my forehead the minute I come home. Anyone who knows me, knows that this kinda thing doesn't fly with me. I'm left to wonder - is he poking a bear with a stick on purpose because he wants out? I have no idea. The loss of privacy is maddening. And yes, I did bring the spying thing up. He said - if you didn't behave that way (masturbate) then I wouldn't have to. What the hell am I supposed to do with that? Yes, I admit I broke our deal. I am very sorry. I really am. I still don't think that disqualifies me from a right to privacy. I DID NOT cheat. I DID NOT do anything that would justify any reasonable person to behave this way. I DID NOT then, or now, or at any time agree to disqualifying my rights to privacy, or be spied on, or have my things being monitored. I have not before, or now, or will I in the future be 'monitoring' him in any way. I think I still need to bring this up in MC more because obviously I need to talk about this.


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

> He said - if you didn't behave that way (masturbate) then I wouldn't have to.


Behave....that word makes my blood boil. As if you are a child. And what about how he is behaving? What kind of man spies on his wife for this? I agree with Ele. Please check for cameras or other recording devices.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Manipulative people often throw tantrums in order to bully their opponent into conceding. A close cousin tactic is just outlasting you. On into the night, wearing you down.
> 
> To defeat these, you calmly lay down your terms, then stop talking. No discussion.
> 
> ...


I wish THAT was the original deal I made. Yes I will be masturbating on my own schedule when I feel like it and we both know it doesn't affect our sex life. And if you spy on me in any way I will be 'so what?'. 

And yeah, he has successfully gotten in my face. You're completely right. It's the worst thing I can do right now. Consider me taking a breath, and counting to ten. I'm chanting - I will not be drawn into war. I will not be drawn into war.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

I would also like to say that if he if basically a good person and a good father and husband, I don't think this is worth divorcing HIM over...just to be clear. But if I were you I would certainly be absolutley crystal clear that in the future you will not put up with being spied on. As long as you remain sexually faithful, you have the high ground.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

ginger-snap said:


> Behave....that word makes my blood boil. As if you are a child. And what about how he is behaving? What kind of man spies on his wife for this? I agree with Ele. Please check for cameras or other recording devices.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know. That's why I'm so angry. I am a mature woman. I have raised (jointly with H of course) 2 beautiful, smart, funny, responsible, well balanced kids. I help out my elderly grandmother (in her 90's), my mother, my brother and anyone else (his family or mine) that needs a hand. I work. I helped out at my kids school, I went to a million sports games and brought snacks for the players. I am not a slacker in any way. I've never had an affair or any drug or gambling problems. WTH?? I am not a child. He said at one point that masturbation leads to other things. I assumed from the jist of the conversation it leads to internet sex, cheating etc. I don't need him to 'save' me from myself. I don't think my history indicates anything about me needing to be saved in any sense of the word. Yes, I could have a MLC and start turning tricks on the nearest corner. Anything is possible, but is that likely???? NO. 

And yeah, some will say it's unnecessary and I'm just feeding into the paranoia, but I need to check out our room. Will be home alone later and I'm going to check, even though I don't know what I'm looking for. I feel like someone broke into my house and ransacked my things. I want to feel safe again in my own home. Pity when I'm trying to make myself safe against my own husbands ransacking. (Not that he left evidence or trashed my things, it's just the way I feel about the spying and stuff)


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

> He said at one point that masturbation leads to other things.


Apparently, it leads to spying on his wife. Since he did it too, did he feel it was going to lead him to "other things" and that's when this feeling formed?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

wilderness said:


> I would also like to say that if he if basically a good person and a good father and husband, I don't think this is worth divorcing HIM over...just to be clear. But if I were you I would certainly be absolutley crystal clear that in the future you will not put up with being spied on. As long as you remain sexually faithful, you have the high ground.


That's why we're in MC. I won't divorce HIM over this. It's not worth it to me. His decision is not mine to make. I do think I have the high ground, but does it really help in a divorce if one party has the high ground. It's not like I can divulge that at the family xmas.
'Juno why are you getting divorced?'
'Gee grandma, it's because H objected to me masturbating. What are your views? Uncle? Aunty? Anyone want to pick over my masturbating habits before we eat? Or would you just like me to pour some acid into your ear to try and erase that image from your brain? Chicken anyone?'

He seems fixated on this to the point of divorce, even though he admits that he has no reason and he shouldn't feel this way about it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

If he thinks that masterbation leads to other things, perhaps he is speaking from experience and is not telling you how he learned this lesson.

When you look in your room I would look for things that were added in the last 2-3 years. A new alarm clock radio? they sell onces that have spy cameras in them. 

Do a google search on "hidden spy cameras" and you will see some things that will give you an idea of what to look for.

Clock radios
Clothing hooks
Stuffed toys

Here is a link to a spy camera finder... 

SpyFinder Camera Detector - Find Hidden Spy Cameras


Here's a clothing hook that is a spy camera

Hidden Cameras | Covert Video Security & Surveillance Camera Systems


Wall socket spy camera

Wall Plug Socket Hidden Covert Spy Camera DVR

Those are just to give you a few ideas. There are tons of things out there with camera's hidden in them. There are also small cameras that a person can add to an object already in a room.

Like take off and look in any airconditioner/heater vent that is near the ceiling. If there are any secruity system devices or smoke detectors in the bedroom, look at those.


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

Well, if you actually found any cameras I would then wonder if he has an issue with voyeurism and is actually getting off on footage of you masturbating. And then projecting his issue onto you by saying that your masturbation is the problem rather than his voyeurism.


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

ClimbingTheWalls said:


> Well, if you actually found any cameras I would then wonder if he has an issue with voyeurism and is actually getting off on footage of you masturbating. And then projecting his issue onto you by saying that your masturbation is the problem rather than his voyeurism.


Very interesting thought. That could be a possibility.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Juno, this is a very disconcerting turn of events.

Detect Hidden Cameras and Microphones - wikiHow

Even as comfortable as I am with masturbating, I still have that nagging fear, as stupid and ridiculous as it is. I close the curtains and turn off the lights. This thread has just jacked up my stupid minor phobia of being spied on! Growing up, this was an issue for me so if I were in your shoes, I would actually hire someone to sweep the bedroom and bathroom. That is just beyond creepy.

About MC... Expect to leave the office with a range of emotions. It is even normal to leave an office thinking the MC has made things worse. Think of it as cleaning a wound. It hurts and can even make the wound feel worse.

I admire how level you've kept yourself through this. Though you might not see it, I see a woman who is trying very hard to remain focused on the important things. Bravo!

Also, I find masturbation discussions at the dinner table go best with pork, not chicken.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

The more you talk, the more it's clear that something is very wrong with your husband. Drop the masturbation issue and try and see if you can persuade him into going to a doctor and getting some tests done. He might need some psychological help. His behavior is beyond the point of just being mildly unreasonable, or slightly odd. There might be some real mental health issues here.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> If he thinks that masterbation leads to other things, perhaps he is speaking from experience and is not telling you how he learned this lesson.
> 
> When you look in your room I would look for things that were added in the last 2-3 years. A new alarm clock radio? they sell onces that have spy cameras in them.
> 
> ...



Damn! Sorry EleGirl, I didn't see this when I posted.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> And yeah, he has successfully gotten in my face. You're completely right. It's the worst thing I can do right now. Consider me taking a breath, and counting to ten. I'm chanting - I will not be drawn into war. I will not be drawn into war.


Good for you. 

The battle ground with manipulative people is never where you think it is. Their talent is in deception. In the ambush. Selecting the right ambush is something they are extremely cunning about. The fact you won't divorce him over this is a major reason for choosing this as his battle ground.

If he was convinced you would leave him over this, then it would not be something chosen as an ambush. You have instructed him on how to debilitate you without causing you to leave him. 

There is an elegant torment involved in these calculations, in the same way horror can be exquisite. Normal people do not think of how to maximize the amount of torment we inflict upon others without losing them. It's too incredible for us to believe someone would act that way.

Instead we want to seek an explanation that fits within our own conscientiousness. We wouldn't do that to anyone, so it must be this poor misunderstood boy has problems with insecurities and we should be understanding towards him. 

But what difference does the reason make? Behaviorally there is no difference between a sadistic monster on the one hand and the poor little insecure monster on the other. We see this all the time on TAM with the abuser saying they did not intend to hurt the victim. So what. They're a monster just the same.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Also, I find masturbation discussions at the dinner table go best with pork, not chicken.


LOL. I'll try and remember that. Although, I think any discussion with grandma about masturbation might be best on an empty stomach. 
Oh God. I know I keep saying this but - how the hell did I get here? LOL


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Good for you.
> 
> The battle ground with manipulative people is never where you think it is. Their talent is in deception. In the ambush. Selecting the right ambush is something they are extremely cunning about. The fact you won't divorce him over this is a major reason for choosing this as his battle ground.
> 
> ...


Wise advice as always. What he's doing is hurtful whether it's malicious intent or irrational insecurity. It doesn't matter which and I'm still not sure about which it is. I have wondered if he's picked an issue that's so personal as part of some kind of ambush. He may not even be consciously aware that this is why he's pick the forbidden masturbation topic. eg - If I pick this topic she'll never speak of it to anyone else and no-one will know whose 'fault' the divorce is. 

It's a real shame that I feel these things about my H at the moment, but when someone is being from my pov irrational, illogical and unpredictable, I feel like I have to go through all the possibilities.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

> I have wondered if he's picked an issue that's so personal as part of some kind of ambush. He may not even be consciously aware that this is why he's pick the forbidden masturbation topic. eg - If I pick this topic she'll never speak of it to anyone else and no-one will know whose 'fault' the divorce is.


Then turn the tables on him.

You have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.

If you tell everyone the reason for your pending divorce is because he demands you never masturbate again he'll be a laughingstock.
Right up until the moment they realize it's really not funny but pathetically controlling.

The humiliation alone should bring him to heel.

If you do divorce how many options is he going to have as a single male once the pool of potential mates learns why he got divorced?

He will probably live the rest of his life celibate.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

tacoma said:


> He will probably live the rest of his life celibate.


Doubt it. There aren't a shortage of sexually dead, dried prudes who would love to be married to a man who viewed self pleasure as an evil abomination. 

The problem arises when this man realizes that he didn't really leave his good wife over her occasional masturbation, but that something inside of him is broken and the consequence of not dealing with that problem was the loss of a perfectly good marriage. That'll be a hard day.


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> From now on, just move everything around all the time.. it will drive him nuts and eventually he'll have to give up.. unless he's recording you with audio or video.



:smthumbup::smthumbup:

I wasn't aware of this thread. Hell, I wasn't aware a thread with this subject line could even exist. When I first saw the title I thought that the husband was leaving because he wanted to be free to masturbate all he wanted.

I don't mean to make light of your pain. I just want you to know that I hope he can get the help he needs through marriage counseling. Your feeling that you are in the Twilight Zone must be very overwhelming...


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Doubt it. There aren't a shortage of sexually dead, dried prudes who would love to be married to a man who viewed self pleasure as an evil abomination.


You're right but in my mind I'd prefer celibacy if that's the pool of potential lovers I had to choose from.



> The problem arises when this man realizes that he didn't really leave his good wife over her occasional masturbation, but that something inside of him is broken and the consequence of not dealing with that problem was the loss of a perfectly good marriage. That'll be a hard day.


I'd like to think the humiliation of calling his bluff the way I described above would motivate him to rise out of this delusion before it got to that point.

If not then again in my mind the OP isn't loosing much anyway.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

tacoma said:


> Then turn the tables on him.
> 
> You have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.
> 
> ...


I can totally understand why he would think I would never speak of this - but he's wrong. After a couple of days of keeping it together but being hysterical on the inside I went to my two best friends in preperation of a divorce and told them everything to which they said - what the hell is his problem? Doesn't everyone indulge in some 'alone time'? This is not your issue, it's his! 

I didn't go to my friends out of vengence or to ridicule him. I went to them because I needed them and I will continue to need them if he follows through with this divorce. 

He hasn't asked me yet if I've told anyone, but he will eventually. I thought about it and I'm going to tell him yes. As far as I'm concerned he put me in a tough spot. He told me he was leaving and then reconsidered a week later and said he wanted to see if we could work this out. Before he had second thoughts I went to my closest friends for comfort and support. If he has trouble looking these people in the face now, that's on him.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

sparkyjim said:


> :smthumbup::smthumbup:
> 
> I wasn't aware of this thread. Hell, I wasn't aware a thread with this subject line could even exist. When I first saw the title I thought that the husband was leaving because he wanted to be free to masturbate all he wanted.
> 
> I don't mean to make light of your pain. I just want you to know that I hope he can get the help he needs through marriage counseling. Your feeling that you are in the Twilight Zone must be very overwhelming...


Thank you. I'm sure I'm not the first one to think they had a happy life and then be blindsided by a spouse for whatever reason. I'm also sure I won't be the last. Dadadadada You are now entering the JunoZone.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

juno 42 said:


> Went to the MC. I was pleased H seemed comfortable with her and opened up.
> .
> .
> .
> ...


Juno42,

Read your thread. My thoughts:

1) You are normal. His behavior is not.
2) You must not give him any reason to believe his demand is reasonable, or that you are the one in the wrong. Doing so (eg. further acquiescing agreements) will only allow him to evade reality. Enablement, IMHO.
3) This may be fixable, depending on the mechanisms at work here. 
4) If you are willing to give him some time to demonstrate it is fixable and that he is going to fix it, then I would go all in with this:

[bold]He said he knows this is unfair, and not logical but it's the way he feels. And if he could change the way he feels he would, but he cant. He now DOES NOT want to end our relationship but find a way through this. [/bold]

...but get him to change the "but he can't" to "and so he is going to try, over the next X months, and we will see".

If he is not willing to promise to do that -- try to fix this -- then there is your cue to leave.

If he doesn't follow through on that promise, once made, then there is your cue to leave.

If he follows through with the try, but fails, well, cross that bridge when you get there.

5) My biggest, maybe only, hope here is that this is some bizarre variant of OCD, except where you unfortunately are part of the O and C, and are directly feeling his attempts to control. I hasten to add that would not excuse his behavior in any way, but may point to possible treatments - which can be effective.

6) If he is just a sadistic tyrant, or a acting out from long-entrenched insecurities, then, I don't see him likely to change or be worth the time to wait around and see if he does change.




You mentioned the "grief", and maybe he is trying to control something because he has had no control over some other important things in his life. And the door/shoe thing. That all resonates with my personal experience with OCD.

I really think you should investigate the similarities his behaviors have had with symptoms of OCD. To the MC, ask for thoughts on whether there are any similarities with OCD here -- what with the obsession with your masturbation habits, a compulsion to look for "evidence", and the door/shoe thing.

Bottom line, if he is not willing to own significantly this issue, and insist on not trying to fix what he can, then he is not giving you any reason to hope.

To be clear, those are just my thoughts, biased by my own experiences, and what reality I could glean and keep straight in my head from reading these many posts.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Also, I find masturbation discussions at the dinner table go best with pork, not chicken.


I was following along very well, even nodding my head in agreement at times, but, AnonPink, I have to admit you lost me there 

Maybe it's my vegetarianism. )


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Doubt it. *There aren't a shortage of sexually dead, dried prudes who would love to be married to a man who viewed self pleasure as an evil abomination. *


Totally uncalled for. There are some of us who choose not to masturbate, not because we are sexually dead, dried prudes, but because we value the bond with our spouses MORE than that of self pleasure. Do I agree with his tactic? No. But the above quoted comment was out of line.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I PM'd you.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

juno 42 said:


> He hasn't asked me yet if I've told anyone, but he will eventually. I thought about it and I'm going to tell him yes. As far as I'm concerned he put me in a tough spot.


Once you know that you're dealing with a manipulator, that is an enormous break-through in dealing with them. Because before that revelation they are always one or two steps ahead of you. 

He's thought through guilt-tripping you over this already. In the past, he would spring this on you and your reaction would be emotional and defensive.

Because when it comes out of him it will be this big emotional play, how could you do this to me, stab me in the back, oh what a traitor you are, blah blah blah. So you react to that emotionally, and he's going to have more emotional plays lined up. Ideally he works you up into an apopleptic volcano and then says "look how emotional you are..."

But now you can laugh in his face. Be prepared for anything - rage, a crying fit, anything he calculates is going to work on your emotions. Being in control of yourself is the key to beating this.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Another session with the MC. Went alright. She asked how things had gone since last time and I told her nothing had changed, H seemed to have calmed down but that I wasn't doing well. I was seriously angry and not communicative with him at all apart from enough chatter infront of the kids to make things look normal. We barely touched on the masturbation elephant in the room. 
We talked about how he seems to jump to the negative too much and he overthinks things - 
Juno is angrier now than last week - she's trying to make me feel bad now that I've calmed down (instead of Juno was trying not to escalate things for both of you in the moment and only now feels able to be angry without making things worse) 
Juno was acting normal in front of the kids - she doesn't care about what's going on (instead of she's putting the kids welfare above ours)
Juno isn't talking to me - she doesn't want to work this out (instead of she's so hurt she finds it too difficult emotionally to talk to you)
Maybe if he starts with this he'll start to question other worst case conclusions he has like, the elephant in the room. 
Juno masturbates because I'm not enough for her - instead of my wife masturbates because she's comfortable sexually and maybe I've got her so worked up, that's her release when I'm not around. 
Not sure how I feel right now, except I don't feel any worse. And I am happy I haven't been asked to change my behaviour or justify it. So I guess that's something positive. Maybe.


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

One foot in front of the other. Hopefully the MC is starting to dial into his real issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

How about this for a really good change: Absolutely refuse to be manipulated and controlled by your husband. We here at TAM are cheering for you, and we believe that if you can stay the course and he completely knows that his control and manipulation tactics aren't going to work on you, you will have freedom. Maybe he will even have some sort of an epiphany and realize that trying to control you will not get what he wants and truly change. 

The bottom line of anyone who is trying to control another is fear. He is fearful. 

He believes that if you would change one or two things about you, he would be happier. He is trying to change your behavior by pointing it out, over and over. He is trying to make you fit his unrealistic expectations. He struggles with imperfection and he thinks you should, too. He is trying to be the judge of your behavior, telling you what is right or wrong and passive-aggressively withholding attention until you fall in line with his expectations. If you catch him sitting in silent judgment, this is a form of control. He may even offer "constructive criticism" as a veiled attempt to advance his agenda. 

He expects you to change who you are or what you believe so that he will accept you. Instead of allowing you to just be yourself, he will be glad to skew how others might view you by managing their impression of you (think about what he says to the kids...).

In threatening divorce he has presented worst-case scenarios in an attempt to influence you away from certain behaviors and toward his way of doing things. By the way, this is also called using fear to his advantage.

He has a hard time with ambiguity and not knowing something, and will intervene by trying to explain or dismiss your behavior to others.

Did I just describe your husband? I'll bet I did to a tee. That's because I can smell a manipulator from a mile away. The only antidote to a manipulator is to not be manipulated and stand your ground. Refuse to play his manipulation games. There is a real chance that by standing your ground he will be "forced" to do the "unthinkable" and try to actually carry out the threats he has made. But the more people who are involved in the situation, the less power he has. The more people you talk to about his manipulation, and the more people who are on your side, the better off you will be. There is strength in numbers. The more people who are onto his game, the less power he will have and the more frustrated he will become. He will either break (meaning come to the conclusion that being a manipulative SOB isn't the answer) or he will leave. Either way, you will be free to be yourself and not have to play these games any more.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

I have not read this whole thread.

I freely admit this. But I can give you my first impressions.




You won't like my first impresssions!

Honestly, you really should stop reading now.

So...this guy makes you sign an oath not to do something you can freely do on your own...and he ALLOWS you to keep lube whereever...and maybe a few sex toys. He doesn't make you throw this stuff away. Oh no!

He has it dangling in front of your nose and is watching like a hawk, because if he's been with you 24 years, he knows you pretty well too and knew you were blowing smoke up his butt with your promise.

He doesn't want to be in a relationship with you anymore and this is his pretext. Whether he realizes it or not is another matter.

If it isn't masturbation, it will be something else.

Sounds like there is a hell of a lot to communicate, but from the sounds of it, he's done but he needs a reason.

For whatever reason he picked this.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Totally uncalled for. There are some of us who choose not to masturbate, not because we are sexually dead, dried prudes, but because we value the bond with our spouses MORE than that of self pleasure. Do I agree with his tactic? No. But the above quoted comment was out of line.


I'm going to quote myself here:

"Doubt it. There aren't a shortage of sexually dead, dried prudes who would love to be married to a man *who viewed self pleasure as an evil abomination.*"

Nowhere did I say anything about people who were against masturbation in marriage because they value the sexual bond with their spouse over including self pleasure. I'm surprised you'd say that to me considering how often I've stood up for and defended you and your husband's decision to forsake masturbation in your own marriage for mutually agreed upon reasons, even though I personally see nothing wrong with it at all.

I, me personally, feel that people who demonize healthy, natural masturbation as "evil" or "sinful" are prudes. I stand by my own view. However I do not think it's fair to project thoughts, words, or beliefs into those statements that were not made, or implied, by me.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

juno said: "Another session with the MC. Went alright."


You had an MC session on Sunday?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

juno 42 said:


> Another session with the MC. Went alright. She asked how things had gone since last time and I told her nothing had changed, H seemed to have calmed down but that I wasn't doing well. I was seriously angry and not communicative with him at all apart from enough chatter infront of the kids to make things look normal. We barely touched on the masturbation elephant in the room.
> We talked about how he seems to jump to the negative too much and he overthinks things -
> Juno is angrier now than last week - she's trying to make me feel bad now that I've calmed down (instead of Juno was trying not to escalate things for both of you in the moment and only now feels able to be angry without making things worse)
> Juno was acting normal in front of the kids - she doesn't care about what's going on (instead of she's putting the kids welfare above ours)
> ...


One good way to protract a bad situation is to allow it continue down the path of misdirection.

Correct his misunderstandings as soon as you discover them. Don't allow him to continue to obsess or dwell on misguided or skewed perception. If you want him to jump to the right conclusion, make sure the diving board is square and level.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

ClimbingTheWalls said:


> Well, if you actually found any cameras I would then wonder if he has an issue with voyeurism and is actually getting off on footage of you masturbating. And then projecting his issue onto you by saying that your masturbation is the problem rather than his voyeurism.


Wouldn't that be the ultimate irony...him masturbating to footage of her masturbating.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MaritimeGuy said:


> Wouldn't that be the ultimate irony...him masturbating to footage of her masturbating.


Sounds like Alfred Hitch**** porn...


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I'm going to quote myself here:
> 
> "Doubt it. There aren't a shortage of sexually dead, dried prudes who would love to be married to a man *who viewed self pleasure as an evil abomination.*"
> 
> ...


I got that you were stating that the husband views masturbation in that manner (evil/sinful). What I was saying is that some of us, who are NOT sexually dead prudes, would have no problem being married to men like this because we choose not to masturbate for the reason I stated above. IOW, we may not agree on WHY not to masturbate, but we agree not to...if that's any clearer.

Example: My husband and I agree not to because we save sexual energy for each other. But, if he viewed it as evil or sinful, I still wouldn't have a problem with that because I choose not to masturbate for my own reasons: saving all sex for him. In both examples, I wouldn't be a sexually dead prude... I'm just as sexual either way. 

I don't think your intent was to say that the only women who would want him would be sexually dead prudes... But that's how I interpreted the statement. That's why I said it was uncalled for... because some who are very sexual could still easily marry someone who views masturbation in that light because they choose to save it anyway. Does that make sense?

I do apologize if I misinterpreted your post, though.


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> I got that you were stating that the husband views masturbation in that manner (evil/sinful). What I was saying is that some of us, who are NOT sexually dead prudes, would have no problem being married to men like this because we choose not to masturbate for the reason I stated above. IOW, we may not agree on WHY not to masturbate, but we agree not to...if that's any clearer.
> 
> Example: My husband and I agree not to because we save sexual energy for each other. But, if he viewed it as evil or sinful, I still wouldn't have a problem with that because I choose not to masturbate for my own reasons: saving all sex for him. In both examples, I wouldn't be a sexually dead prude... I'm just as sexual either way.
> 
> ...


Well stated. I got what both of you were trying to say, and this post should clear up the muddy waters. It did for me, anyway.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Wow, I just read through 8 pages of stuff and I have to agree with the control freak/mental illness/unresolved (childhood?) issues crowd. 

In TAM, a lot of threads say things like the only privacy in marriage is in the bathroom. Does he count the toilet paper squares? The lube thing was a total setup in my mind.

Here's another side of that coin, although I don't see that it applies to you from what I've read: Masturbation often (not always) involves fantasy or memories. I get turned on by seeing my wife pleasure herself while I am there, but I'm still too close to DDay to be comfortable with her doing it on her own. I don't want her reminiscing about the OM. If I were in a relationship that had no such history, as yours apparently is, then I would really enjoy it that she was so comfy with herself and her sexuality. In past relationships I've been with masturbating women and frankly it was a turn-on for me.

When we first got together my wife said I didn't need to masturbate any more (my last marriage was a once-a-year sexually). However, with the unfaithfulness and the need for release, I do occasionally. But I'm not 22 or 32 or even 42 any more, and I am in love with her, but I never promised to stop and I never will make that promise. But I try to respect her feelings/wishes. For whatever reasons, if we don't have sex within a reasonable amount of time, I'll do it just to take the pressure off. I have a feeling that's what you are doing, at least from what I've read. 

You sound like a strong, intelligent woman. Stay your course is my two cents. He seems like he may be worth it, but that's totally your call as I don't know either of you one iota. God bless both of you.


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