# Is there any hope?



## curlycue (Jun 19, 2017)

I'm 37. My husband & I have 2 young kids. We've been together 17 years and married 14 and honestly haven't ever had a satisfying marriage. 
Short version- I was never priority (let his mom come between us), he doesn't do emotional intimacy at all, there was dishonesty big and small, and never really supported me through tough times big or small. I'm sure I wasn't perfect either but I truly tried. And I asked for what I wanted/needed. He never responded to my needs or maybe just wasn't capable of it.
I'm done. I've been done for a couple of years but afraid to say it. I finally did say it last week. And now he wants to work at it. 
Problem is I'm shut down. Years of wanting and asking for intimacy, support, honesty and openness and nothing ever changing, I'm just shut down. I have zero expectations and I don't want anything from him at all. Im not even mad anymore. I'm simply indifferent. Good or bad, nothing he does really matter.
But then I think of the kids (he's a great dad and overall a nice guy) and the fact that he wants to try... and feel like I should give it a shot. But at the same time - I don't feel a thing...
I don't know what to do. Is there any hope for working on it? Or going to counseling? I feel like there isn't but I'm in also in a miserable hopeless mood. :-/
TIA!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

The question is, will he try and keep trying, or make a token effort and return to status quo? Perhaps you should give this one last try, but set a timeframe to see sufficient improvement, at which time you can decide if it's enough. I suggest six months - if his efforts last that long. And counseling may help, but if you've really shut down for him, it will be difficult to benefit from it.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I could have written your post. My XH never made any adjustments in the 15 years I begged him too.
By the time I told him it was over, I had already spent years grieving the loss of my marriage, and had no emotions left for it.
Suddenly he really wanted to try. It was too late.

Not much will be hurt by giving it another try if you want too, but it is extremely doubtful that that final outcome will change. I gave it a try for the sake of the kids etc and I don't regret it. Ultimately, it was over, I was gone from the marriage, and so are you.


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## curlycue (Jun 19, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> The question is, will he try and keep trying, or make a token effort and return to status quo? Perhaps you should give this one last try, but set a timeframe to see sufficient improvement, at which time you can decide if it's enough. I suggest six months - if his efforts last that long. And counseling may help, but if you've really shut down for him, it will be difficult to benefit from it.


Thanks. I am inclined to give it another shot. I don't feel like I care right now but I am hoping him making a real effort and having some of my emotional needs met may get me to open up slowly again.
Thanks for the time frame tip - I do feel there's a good chance it won't last. Life for him usually means taking the path of least resistance. So once ignoring my needs becomes easier than paying attention, the effort will probably stop. 

But my boys deserve my effort. Because he is a great dad and their relationship won't ever be the same if we split up...


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## curlycue (Jun 19, 2017)

Spicy said:


> I could have written your post. My XH never made any adjustments in the 15 years I begged him too.
> By the time I told him it was over, I had already spent years grieving the loss of my marriage, and had no emotions left for it.
> Suddenly he really wanted to try. It was too late.
> 
> Not much will be hurt by giving it another try if you want too, but it is extremely doubtful that that final outcome will change. I gave it a try for the sake of the kids etc and I don't regret it. Ultimately, it was over, I was gone from the marriage, and so are you.


Thanks. Always nice to come across someone who completely gets how you feel. 
Yes I am gone from the marriage - have been for a while. Think you nailed it with the grieving comment, I've already grieved the loss and I'm at the acceptance stage now. So it really doesn't feel like something I can rekindle.
But yes the kids. Mine are still really young too. So, we're giving it a shot including marriage counseling. Because without that I don't even know where to start trying to fix things. See if he can keep up the work and if I am capable of opening up to him again.

Thanks again.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*In order to make better of an educated and a much more informed choice, I'd heartily recommend marriage counseling, at least taking it to the point that you know that your feelings are truly never going to change back!

But in any event, never allow yourself, in a moment of weakness or desperation, to venture out in order to seek that missing emotional/sexual complement for as long as you're legally married to him! That is inherently wrong, to both him and to your families, from both a moral as well as a spiritual standpoint, and in the long run is more than counterproductive to the active, ongoing attempt at the rehabilitation of your married relationship with him!*


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## curlycue (Jun 19, 2017)

arbitrator said:


> *In order to make better of an educated and a much more informed choice, I'd heartily recommend marriage counseling, at least taking it to the point that you know that your feelings are truly never going to change back!
> 
> But in any event, never allow yourself, in a moment of weakness or desperation, to venture out in order to seek that missing emotional/sexual complement for as long as you're legally married to him! That is inherently wrong, to both him and to your families, from both a moral as well as a spiritual standpoint, and in the long run is more than counterproductive to the active, ongoing attempt at the rehabilitation of your married relationship with him!*


Thanks. We are trying counseling soon. I have not and do not intend to step out. I've been leaning on family and friends (close female friends) for emotional support.

He has stepped out - a little over 2 years ago - texting/sexting with a coworker. That's when I realized the relationship was over. I wasn't the only one feeling alone and miserable. I forgave him but the problem in the relationship it brought to light was too big for me to ignore.
I suggested counseling then, he didn't go. Maybe I let him off too easy then... 

This - being done - would have happened sooner except I got pregnant. So the whole process for me was delayed.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

This happened with my ex too..... didn't give a rat's behind about me despite the fact that i told him for years I was unhappy. Even told me that it was my problem, he was happy, refused counseling, etc 

When i told him i was done be begged for counseling, wanted to work on it, etc.

The thing to remember is that this has nothing to do with care for you or your happiness, this is because HIS world is about to blow up. When he thought you weren't going anywhere he didn't give a darn.

People show you who they are when they think you're not looking or there are no consequences, and he's shown you. He cares about his world, not you. 

For this reason I doubt what he's doing will last.....it comes from a place of selfishness. As soon as he thinks all is well he'll stop.

But by all means give it a try.....maybe he'll be one of the few who had a genuine wake-up call. And maybe you'll get some feelings back. 

Give it a set time frame.....6 months is a good start.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

This actually happened with us. I had basically checked out and was just coasting along doing nothing. Unbeknownst to me, he was cheating.

Today things are great with us, but it took him finally waking up and doing a lot of work on himself, and also ME waking up and deciding that we needed a fresh start and working with him. The main issue I had to deal with was him cheating. Notice I said DEAL WITH. NOT 'get over' or 'forget about'. If you two don't work on that first and foremost, I think your marriage is doomed. If - IF - he is truly remorseful for what he did, THEN keep working on things with him.


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## curlycue (Jun 19, 2017)

Hope1964 said:


> This actually happened with us. I had basically checked out and was just coasting along doing nothing. Unbeknownst to me, he was cheating.
> 
> Today things are great with us, but it took him finally waking up and doing a lot of work on himself, and also ME waking up and deciding that we needed a fresh start and working with him. The main issue I had to deal with was him cheating. Notice I said DEAL WITH. NOT 'get over' or 'forget about'. If you two don't work on that first and foremost, I think your marriage is doomed. If - IF - he is truly remorseful for what he did, THEN keep working on things with him.


Honestly - and maybe scarily - the cheating/sexting isn't my biggest issue from the 15 years of marriage. It doesn't even break the top 5. 
Most of the worst moments have been him choosing to prioritize his mother over me/us and him not being there to support me when I was going through tough times - either flat out ignoring my struggles or minimizing them.


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## curlycue (Jun 19, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> This happened with my ex too..... didn't give a rat's behind about me despite the fact that i told him for years I was unhappy. Even told me that it was my problem, he was happy, refused counseling, etc
> 
> When i told him i was done be begged for counseling, wanted to work on it, etc.
> 
> ...


Definitely don't make it sound too hopeful. Lol. But I really do appreciate the reality check. 
Feel like there is a good chance exactly what this is. And now that I think about it - I have given him an ultimatum before (early in marriage) but it was an empty threat at the time and I think he knew that so it didn't work. ignoring it was easier than doing what I wanted. Just proves your point... path of least resistance...


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## cc48kel (Apr 5, 2017)

Ultimatums do work BUT you have to follow thru. I see a therapist from time to time and she told me that if I get those divorce papers in front of him, he might finally wake up... That's what I want is him to work on himself as well as our marriage. I don't want to divorce BUT I don't want to be in a lonely marriage another 10 or so years. Kids should be in college in about 5-6 years, do I wait or get on with my life now-- this is what I'm working on.

Yes, if he is willing to do the work- by all means go for it!! Right now you feel hopeless BUT when you see him working towards the marriage, you could change your tune. Especially if you see him not giving up! Give it a few months and then reevaluate.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

The issue I see with ultimatums is that they basically strong arm someone into going against their nature and doing what they don't want to do. 

It might be ok if it's a specific, tangible behavior such as doing chores x, y, and z, or consulting you before plans are made. One can make a decision to do those things. 

What you're looking for is less tangible..... you want him to prioritize you.

But what does that mean? More dates? Talk about your day? It's somewhat abstract, and when ultimatums are used on things that are not tangible you'll usually get the bare minimum to keep you around, precisely because prioritizing you is not his nature.

If you're going to attack this you're going to need a roadmap, which might be best addressed in MC. But whatever you do, do not badger him. It's important that you make your feelings known and then step back to see what effort he's willing to make. You need to know if he's going to put in just enough to keep you around.


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## curlycue (Jun 19, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> The issue I see with ultimatums is that they basically strong arm someone into going against their nature and doing what they don't want to do.
> 
> It might be ok if it's a specific, tangible behavior such as doing chores x, y, and z, or consulting you before plans are made. One can make a decision to do those things.
> 
> ...


Sorry - I think I'm talking over myself. Ultimatum was years ago and it was a very concrete tangible thing. Moving out (we were living with his mom in a toxic environment.) and he had agreed we had to and will but wasn't doing anything.

Right now - this isn't an ultimatum at all. I'm just done with pretending there's something here that's not.
Prioritizing me right now is hard to define. It's a past issue I'm extremely resentful about. 

But I can't think of much I want from him right now. Like I said, I'm feeling very shut down. 
Feel like MY life has grown into something that doesn't include him anymore. Other than sharing household/child care duties, finances, social schedules, we don't have anything there. So what expectations are there when there really is no relationship and hasn't been for years...?


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## curlycue (Jun 19, 2017)

cc48kel said:


> Ultimatums do work BUT you have to follow thru. I see a therapist from time to time and she told me that if I get those divorce papers in front of him, he might finally wake up... That's what I want is him to work on himself as well as our marriage. I don't want to divorce BUT I don't want to be in a lonely marriage another 10 or so years. Kids should be in college in about 5-6 years, do I wait or get on with my life now-- this is what I'm working on.
> 
> Yes, if he is willing to do the work- by all means go for it!! Right now you feel hopeless BUT when you see him working towards the marriage, you could change your tune. Especially if you see him not giving up! Give it a few months and then reevaluate.


Only problem I have - and MC may help figure this out is - I don't have any real expectations of him. Everything I wanted was always ignored. I haven't had very many expectations from him regarding our relationship since our first kid was born 7 years ago. 

I can't even define for him what I want/need - life is completely different now and I don't know what would make me feel cared for at this point.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> But by all means give it a try.....maybe he'll be one of the few who had a genuine wake-up call. And maybe you'll get some feelings back.
> 
> Give it a set time frame.....6 months is a good start.


Wake up calls must be rooted in the overall desire to be humble about the place one has found themselves in... it must be from understanding the hurt you caused, not the hurt you feel.

Actions and time frames... he needs to write these with his own hand, no better ownership.


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## curlycue (Jun 19, 2017)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> lifeistooshort said:
> 
> 
> > But by all means give it a try.....maybe he'll be one of the few who had a genuine wake-up call. And maybe you'll get some feelings back.
> ...


Thank you for this!!
I have to step back and let him take ownership. I keep trying to create the roadmap for him and I'm now starting to understand I have to step back. Be open to him changing best I can but he has to initiate it and find his path. 

This really helped.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

curlycue said:


> Thank you for this!!
> I have to step back and let him take ownership. I keep trying to create the roadmap for him and I'm now starting to understand I have to step back. Be open to him changing best I can but he has to initiate it and find his path.
> 
> This really helped.


There are two books that I think would go a long way to help both of you. 

"Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs" -- see links below in my signature block.

Get him to read the books and do the work they say to do with you. The purpose of the books are to fix situations like the one you are in. You do the "Love Busters" book first because you both need to identify and stop the things each of you do that have killed your love for each other. Then, after that, you both do the Needs book and restructure your marriage to rebuild it into a loving, passionate relationship. And yes that can be done, you both can get back to being madly in love if you both do what the books suggest.

I suggest that you give yourself a time frame. Do this for 3 months and assess if it's getting significantly better. If not end the marriage. If it is getting better, give it another 3 months. Then assess it again. Then go to 6 month intervals...


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## curlycue (Jun 19, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> curlycue said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you for this!!
> ...


I've ordered both books. In the meantime, I've looked online about them and have a question on doing the love busters. The book may explain this but might as well ask since you seem to know the concepts.

Currently, neither one of us really has any love busters because we simply don't engage enough to get to that. It's been a distant, polite relationship for a couple of years now. So how do you use the book/questionnaire? 

And looking at the Resolving conflicts sections of the book - Even some of the stuff that caused our biggest problems and led to us growing apart as much as we have don't exist anymore. There's just a lot of past hurts and resentments...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

curlycue said:


> he doesn't do emotional intimacy at all,





curlycue said:


> and never really supported me through tough times big or small.
> I'm sure I wasn't perfect either but I truly tried. And I asked for what I wanted/needed. He never responded to my needs or maybe just wasn't capable of it.


All of the above are love busters. However, I would not put it in your love buster list if he is not doing those things right now. They will be addressed as things to do in the “His Needs, Her Needs” book.



curlycue said:


> Short version- I was never priority (let his mom come between us)


Letting his mother be a bigger priority than you and letting her come between the two of you is a love buster. He has to stop putting your mother and anything else ahead of you. 



curlycue said:


> there was dishonesty big and small,


If he is still being dishonest, this is a HUGE love buster.

I think that you could say that him not being there for you on any level is a love buster. He must stop this and talk with you, listen and make the effort to understand when you bring up an issue.

It’s ok to start with a short list of love busters, one or two is fine. One thing about the Marriage Builder concepts is that this is not a onetime thing. Once you start it, it’s good to have a regular meeting (once a week, every two weeks or once a month. Do not go over a month) and review as a couple how you are both doing. You can modify your love busters and needs in each meeting. They do change over time.

When my husband and I were doing this, our marriage was wonderful. Every 2 weeks we had a meeting… I made snacks and deserts, we would have something like tea, or wine and talk. It was great… it was one of our ‘dates’.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

curlycue said:


> I've ordered both books. In the meantime, I've looked online about them and have a question on doing the love busters. The book may explain this but might as well ask since you seem to know the concepts.
> 
> Currently, neither one of us really has any love busters because we simply don't engage enough to get to that. It's been a distant, polite relationship for a couple of years now. So how do you use the book/questionnaire?
> 
> And looking at the Resolving conflicts sections of the book - Even some of the stuff that caused our biggest problems and led to us growing apart as much as we have don't exist anymore. There's just a lot of past hurts and resentments...


I don't recall if the book says this, but do not spend an lot of time talking to him about past hurts and resentments. It serves no purpose. Love busters have to be current things. 

The reason you do not talk about the past is that you are fixing the future. And when this works, couples just do not care about the past. I had not place in their lives when they are happy and in love.


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## curlycue (Jun 19, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> curlycue said:
> 
> 
> > he doesn't do emotional intimacy at all,
> ...


Thanks for the info. 
Problem in this case may be me. Most of the issues are now in the past. But they lasted so long I've put so many defenses up and I'm having a very hard time even imagining opening up. 

For example, after always having my feelings ignored, minimized, or kind of eye-rolled at - I simply don't turn to him for support anymore. I'm just not comfortable being vulnerable like that with him. So how do I ask him to support me...? But I honestly feel sick to my stomach at the thought of talking to him about anything I need support for.

His mom had health issues last year and can't interfere anymore. So no he's not prioritizing her over me at the moment but it's because he can't. After a decade of him doing just that, I'm not sure what this adds up to. It's not him changing, it's the situation. She came back around tomorrow, I have no doubts we'd be back where we were. But he has no way to prove otherwise.

Dishonesty- I don't know. Could be current or could not be. Nothing I know of. But it's not like he ever came clean about any of the past dishonest stuff - just always got caught. And some of it (not infidelity related) went on for years. So he can say what he wants but lack of dishonest behavior doesn't tell me there is none. To me that just means I haven't found out yet. He's lost all of my trust over the years.

This is why I've been stuck regarding the books and even MC. Maybe I need IC first...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I think that MC and doing the book is a good idea. You can talk to the counselor about some of this.

IC might be good too if you can afford that as well.

What sort of things was he dishonest about? Dishonesty is a huge issue that might not be able to be worked around.

MB requires what they call radical honestly. After reading the MB material years ago, I even started using that with my kids. I taught them to be radically honest within the family. It worked very well.

But it sounds like he might have real issues with dishonesty. What sort of things was he lying about?

If you really feel that you cannot go through with trying one last time, then don't do it. I know that you are in a spot with him pressuring you to try. But sometimes we really are done.


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## curlycue (Jun 19, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> I think that MC and doing the book is a good idea. You can talk to the counselor about some of this.
> 
> IC might be good too if you can afford that as well.
> 
> ...


Thanks again for all the information and thoughts. I really appreciate it. 

Dishonesty - there was a sexting affair which was short lived (as far as I know). He also lied about smoking for years. It came up in a life insurance medical exam and he denied smoking. Hid it for years until our 2 year old got into his work bag one day and spread his cigarettes all over the living room. Still can't tell me why he lied about it.

I guess I just have a lot of thinking to do. I'm not sure I can muster up enough trust to do this. Not just for dishonesty but for trusting him enough to open up to him for support. That's a big one for me. I don't see a relationship where I can't turn to him with something that really bothering me. 

I'm not trying so hard to give it another shot for his sake. It's for the kids - especially our oldest (7) who is special needs and I'm concerned how he will deal with it. 

But so far it seems too painful to let down the defenses and trust him enough to open up. 

Thanks again! I really do appreciate the information and giving me things to think about.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

This decision is of course up to you. 

What might help you is to get some IC so that you can make this decision decisively, one way or the other.

Divorce can be hard on children. But living in a family that is not functioning well is also hard on children.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

curlycue said:


> Im not even mad anymore. I'm simply indifferent. !


And this statement right here says it all.

When you've reached *indifference*, you're done. Accept it gracefully.

Doing MC and reading self help books isn't going to magically make all your feelings come back from 17 years ago.

It's very noble that you're willing to sacrifice your own emotional and mental well-being in order to stay together with him for the kids. However, falling on the sword for your kids just so they don't come from a broken home does a lot more damage to you and ultimately them than you realize. There's nothing wrong or dishonorable about accepting the fact that this marriage is over and finding a way to move forward without him in a positive manner - which would be much more emotionally *healthy* for you and ultimately more beneficial for your kids to have a happy and emotionally well-adjusted mom.


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