# wife has EA with her boss...bleh



## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

I think I already know what you guys are going to tell me after lurking here for the past week or so..but maybe I'll be surprised. And to get any other awkwardness out of the way - we're both women. Feel free to go straight for the tl;dr at the bottom if you don't want to read this mess.

My short-ish story: Together for 15 years - ages 16 and 18 when we got together. Married since '08. We're both in pretty typical mid-career high-ish stress jobs where we're both proving ourselves, etc. We don't have kids and like to travel, so we've been enjoying the DINK (dual-income, no kids) lifestyle for quite a while. This past year got really insane for both of us with big work projects, and while we kept acknowledging we weren't spending enough time together - neither of us did anything about it. 

So, 2 1/2 weeks ago while on vacation, I reveal to my WW that I'm feeling neglected and really want to start focusing on us. She reveals she wants "personal time" to "work on herself" - away from me entirely. This started out with the whole "we've been together so long I'm not sure who I am" type conversation. Over the course of the next hour or so, I manage to drag out that it's not personal time she wants - she's formed an EA with her boss and they've talked about making it a PA. Apparently there was a plan with goals, but my wife never went through with it because she felt too guilty. According to her, there was never more than hand-on-forearm or shoulder touching. This went on for about 1 month with dinner, txts, emails prior to me finding out. She's been friends with her for about 9 months, so these feelings are new-ish.

I gave the choice - me or her. At first she chose the OW until I matter of fact-ly laid out the things we'd need to decide over the next few days - what assets we're dividing, selling the house, etc. I packed a bag in front of her to leave, and at that point she broke down. We spent a few hours apart, and when we came back together she told me she wanted to work on things with me. She realizes the EA is a fantasy and loves me - isn't sure if she's in love with me - but we've grown apart and she has these feelings...blahblahblah. All the normal stuff you hear from a WW about that.

So, I guess we're trying to work on things. The past few weeks we have had a lot of heartfelt talks as we've become overwhelmed with emotions - but we're trying to avoid getting too serious about discussions until we're able to meet with a marriage counselor, which should happen tomorrow. We're both at the conclusion that we love each other, but neither of us is in love with the other at the moment. I'm feeling too much neglect and pain and she's confused in her stupid affair fog.

We've also spent the past 2 weeks or so doing new activities together - and when not overwhelmed with emotions or having those stupid talks - we're really getting along quite well and I'm remembering why I was in love with her before. I'm seeing some signs that person I want to be with is still there. This scares the bejeesus out of me, because I don't want to fall back in love with someone who just betrayed and hurt me so much. I want to hold myself aloof - hell I want to hold myself back and get myself to the point where I don't love her and I can just tell her to go, because I don't want to hurt. Then I think about not being with her and want to fall apart into a pile of tears...which only pisses me off more because I hate crying and feeling that way.

Also in the interest of full disclosure - I have had a few people over the years that I have started to form EA's with. When I recognized I was forming inappropriate feelings for those people - I always chose to stop spending time and effort there, and refocused myself back on my wife. I do understand and somewhat empathize with it happening - but she crossed the line once she told the other girl she wanted to kiss her, and they had multiple talks about having an affair.

My WW has been dealing with a social anxiety disorder for a lot of her life, and she does not have a lot of friends. I am a social butterfly for the most part, and have lots of friends. The girl she formed an EA with is probably the first person - other than me - that she's been able to connect with and have a friendship with in many years.

While she's done the NC letter and is supposedly keeping things to 'just business' with the OW..I don't see how she's going to be able to get over this having to interact with her all the time. We're going to a marriage counselor tomorrow, and I'm definitely bringing a list of questions to them as far as how we should be behaving, and how my WW can start showing me that she's worthy of trusting again.

I hate that I want to snoop on her - but I also do not want to go there or do that. I feel like it will only grow my paranoia and suspicion, and if I start snooping I think we're done. To occupy myself, I've signed up for some activities I've wanted to do for a long time but either didn't prioritize or was too chicken to do. I'm doing these on my own without my WW. I've encouraged her to join some groups on her own and to get to her yoga classes more, so we aren't together 24/7.

I've made it clear to her that in our marriage its either just us or we're through. I also told her that I really do think we've had a great relationship over the past 15 years, and I don't want to think badly of it. I do just want her to be happy, so if that means she needs to leave me to be with someone else - please do that. I don't want to be anyone's second choice..and while I do love her insanely..there are other people out there who will love me and treat me like I want to be treated...so let me go if that can't be you.

tl;dr: Wife had EA, supposedly gone NC and wants to work on it - I am devastated but willing to try - just not sure if she'll be able to get over this EA. We see a marriage counselor tomorrow.

So how doomed does this sound?


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

MC will help nothing if both partners are not committed. I sounds like the "fog" is still thick with her. Her initial choice of OW is very telling about how she feels deep down about you and OW. Emotionally, you are her second choice. She was just too scared of change to leave you.

As long as she is still seeing the OW at work nothing is going to change for you and MC is a waste of time and money.

Do not feel guilty about snooping. That may be the only way you find out what is true and what is not and YOU need the truth in order to make the tough decision you are facing.


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

bleh


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

As TDSC60 said, you're only throwing money away by going to marriage counseling while she's still working with her affair partner.

Is your relationship doomed? Not necessarily, but it depends largely on your wife. If she doesn't want to reconcile, then there's fvck-all you can do.

The first step in reconcile is severing all contact (ALL CONTACT) with the affair partner. This means she _must_ quit her job. It's not open for discussion - if she still sees her affair partner, your wife's feelings will keep getting conflicted. 

And you really _should_ consider verifying (_verifying_, not snooping). You trust in her has been shattered. You cannot take what she says at face value anymore. But if you're willing to try and re-establish that trust with her, you will need to verify that she is in fact telling you the truth, and is no longer in contact with OW or any enabling friends. A voice-activated recorder in her car, a keylogger on her laptop/computer. If she has an iPhone, sync it to iTunes to see potential deleted messages.

All of this is moot, however, if she doesn't want to stay married to you, or if she still works with her affair partner.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

No relationship will survive if affair partners work together. It is down to simple choices, keep the job and lose the marriage , leave the job and work on the marriage .

The no contact has to include not seeing each other , socialising in the same circles as the OW or even going to the same place to eat or drink coffee. All items that trigger a reminder of the OW must be removed and avoided .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

As long as she still works there, there's no way to make any progress. MC will be a waste of time. A decision to stay in the job is a decision to continue the EA, no question about it. What you're doing is letting her off the hook with no consequences. You're rug sweeping.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

1. She can't work with the EA partner after its gone this far. Especially since its her boss. She needs to leave the job ASAP. This may seem harsh, but she was planning on dumping you for this person.

2. Watch for it going under ground. Just like you had the drama at home where she gave in, she will have the same drama at work with her, and she might give in there too. She was making and discussing PA plans with this person so it may have already gone PA.,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Read the threads on the forum. You will see there is zero chance of success as long as affair partners have contact via work. Zero. Every other effort, all other progress, is for nothing as long as they get their "hit"; the infatuation and attachment only deepens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Freckleface, welcome to the site that we really wish you hadn't had to come to, but we are glad you found it.

Infidelity is still infidelity no matter who it happens to.

You'll get a wide range of advice, most of it from people who have been cheated on and some who have cheated, too. Sometimes that's the same person, oddly enough.

Your wife needs to be committed to you or her OW.

It sounds very much as if the OW has been grooming her. You need to expose her to HR, in my opinion.

My best wishes to you. I hope you can resolve your issues and be the loving, caring couple that you should be.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

Eli-Zor said:


> No relationship will survive if affair partners work together. It is down to simple choices, keep the job and lose the marriage , leave the job and work on the marriage .
> 
> The no contact has to include not seeing each other , socialising in the same circles as the OW or even going to the same place to eat or drink coffee. All items that trigger a reminder of the OW must be removed and avoided .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_












The absolute truth!!

You have to have a "no contact" agreement!


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Freckleface,

You and your marriage are only doomed if you let your wayward wife actions devastate you.

Do not let this happen.

You sound like a great gal and I am sure you would easily find a good loving woman.

MC is a waste if your WW sees the OW everyday. We see that happen enough on her.

Also, trust your gut. If you think she is still cheating or hiding something then she most likely is.

Good Luck

HM64


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## viggling (Apr 27, 2012)

i would give it a little time and work on things together .. once she gets out of the fog she may come around but like others said untilshe decides she wants to stay with you your wastng money with a shrink


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FreckleF,
This post is absolutely - stunningly - beautiful. Your parents did an astonishing job with you. 

YOU are going to end up happy and loved. And that may be with your current W. Or not. Truly that will be for her to decide, provided she doesn't continue to violate your boundaries. 

I firmly believe that the way someone reacts to intense duress, reflects their core emotional stability and strength. 

In this situation, there is only one fair option for your partner to take. She needs to change her work situation such that she has minimal or no contact with her current boss. 

I am not suggesting she has to do anything rash. She does not need to quit before she finds another position. Nor should she necessarily have to leave the company - provided she can get far enough away from her current boss - to allow her feelings to naturally fade. 

But this needs to be her highest priority. She cannot truly give the marriage a fighting chance otherwise, and that is not fair to you. 



freckleface said:


> I think I already know what you guys are going to tell me after lurking here for the past week or so..but maybe I'll be surprised. And to get any other awkwardness out of the way - we're both women. Feel free to go straight for the tl;dr at the bottom if you don't want to read this mess.
> 
> My short-ish story: Together for 15 years - ages 16 and 18 when we got together. Married since '08. We're both in pretty typical mid-career high-ish stress jobs where we're both proving ourselves, etc. We don't have kids and like to travel, so we've been enjoying the DINK (dual-income, no kids) lifestyle for quite a while. This past year got really insane for both of us with big work projects, and while we kept acknowledging we weren't spending enough time together - neither of us did anything about it.
> 
> ...


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Thank you for the responses, folks. As I said in the original post, I pretty much knew what most of you would say because I have been reading your stories.

While my wife does work with her boss - her boss travels around 50% of the time, and my WW deals with her mostly via email at this point. In the office she actually changed her seat so that she does not sit near her and does not see her except in meetings with others.

I understand the NC, and I understand that we probably have less of a chance without it - but I wonder if that's how its supposed to be for us. I don't see with her social disorders being able to take away the one group of people she knows and sees consistently in her other coworkers. She's worked there much longer than the OW - almost a decade.

I *think* that if I told her she had to quit she'd leave me, which is pretty telling of how I feel about this stuff.

I have been becoming more comfortable with that thought, though. I know I will survive, and I know that I will eventually find someone else...that doesn't mean I don't wish what we had could come back.

The WW is doing everything she's been asked to by me so far. I didn't ask her to move at work but she did that on her own. She's been home every day and clinging to me like glue. I've been pushing her away a fair amount, which probably isn't helpful.

Even if it winds up being a waste of money, I feel I need to go to at least one MC session to see what they say. Fortunately it's just a $10 copay, so whatever.

I just don't want to become bitter over what has, for the most part, been a pretty awesome 15 years. I've had such a great life, and I really hate it got shattered this way. And i'm f'n sick of crying all the time at the drop of a hat.

Thank you guys so much..i hate that I found this place but I'm glad you're here.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> It sounds very much as if the OW has been grooming her. You need to expose her to HR, in my opinion.


While I do not want to turn into the scorned wife - that thought has certainly occurred to me!!


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Did you make a similar post somewhere else? I remember reading one similar to this in the last year.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Nope. Fortunately until about a week ago I didn't even know this site existed.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

I don't necessarily mean on this site.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

No, I've not written this down before yesterday.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

freckleface said:


> I *think* that if I told her she had to quit she'd leave me, which is pretty telling of how I feel about this stuff.


Consider what that says about your relationship. Also consider what that says about you staying married. Do you want to be married to someone that does not consider you the most important? Why or why not? Don't you deserve that? Doesn't she deserve to be marreid to someone that she can feel that way about?

I don't know the answers, but you really need to think about this and whether you really believe it.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

If she's leave you before the job, then its a serious time to examine the real depth of the relationship. If her higher priority is a job over you and the marriage, then perhaps it's time to move on for you.

Obviously people have to work, and they take pride in their work, but she's gone and messed up her work environment with the EA.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

From a business stand point what her boss did is much worse than what your W did. 

However, you cannot harm the boss without doing serious, perhaps permanent damage to your W's career. 

Your W has injured you. It isn't right. It isn't fair. It hurts a lot. 

And it is also true that over the long run, the way you feel will be mostly driven by what you do. The worst thing about lobbing a grenade into the HR department is that you will have no way to manage the collateral damage. The shrapnel may cause injuries that you would never consciously choose to inflict. 

As long as her boss backs off and lets this fade, the best thing to do is to work this out directly with your W. If the boss persists, you can/should give her one warning. 

As for your W - there is no way to know whether ongoing proximity to her boss is going to make an R a lot more difficult. Only she will know that - over time. If she is committed to you, and it becomes an ongoing problem, she will be honest, and will make a humane choice to either leave the marriage or her current position with the company. 

I don't know how big a role physical intimacy has played in your marriage. I do know that is often a key factor in determining the degree to which your partner is reattaching to you. 



freckleface said:


> While I do not want to turn into the scorned wife - that thought has certainly occurred to me!!


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> From a business stand point what her boss did is much worse than what your W did.
> 
> However, you cannot harm the boss without doing serious, perhaps permanent damage to your W's career.
> 
> ...


While I agree with everything you have said her there is a huge consideration that you aren't addressing. How does FF verify that this boss has indeed backed off? How does she verify that the affair has not continued? How does she avoid opening her heart once again to her WW and then finding out its just false R?

I'm afraid I must reluctantly agree with the others who have said that her wife must leave her job immediately as part of true R. FF did not contaminate her wife's workplace, her WW did that. Now she must suffer the consequences of that decision, fog or not. If she chooses her job over FF then there really isn't much of a relationship to salvage IMO.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I would suggest that your wife go herself to HR, if this is a decent-sized company (more than 50 employees), tell them what happened, and ask to either be moved or to have the boss brought in to discuss the inappropriateness of the situation. She might even hint that her husband is mad as hell at the boss AND the company...


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

I should clarify - the thought of going to HR is the revenge fantasy in my head - but not in my heart or really in me to do that.

I am going forward into this with eyes as wide open as I can, but still try to not compromise who I am, who I want to be, or how I want to behave. While this is a huge betrayal and breach of trust - the vast majority of our marriage hasn't been this way. I don't want her **** up to turn me into someone I do not want to be.

Perhaps I am fooling myself - and time will certainly tell!!! but I do think that I will be able to tell if she's engaging again. As soon as she told me she needed space, I immediately knew it was something else, and named the OW. She just didn't cop to it immediately until I pushed a lot. So some part of me knew what was up. I don't think that part of me will go to sleep for a very long time.

For now she's telling me about all the contact she's having with OW, and how it makes her feel - both good and bad. OW has said she will back off, doesn't want to f up our marriage or their work life. WW appears to be minimizing contact as much as possible, and is starting to work on a project that will leave her interacting less with her boss directly. Her work organization is not all that traditional, so it is possible that she will not spend much time with her at all over the next few months. Given that this has been going on for just over a month and a half...I think I'm willing to see what plays out and what the marriage counselor says for now, as well as how WW progresses over the next few weeks. If nothing else I think it will be educational on where we went wrong and what I can do right with the next person.

I am financially secure, and regardless of the outcome here, I do not have to fear for my safety, my finances, or really anything other than my mental health. Currently I'm planning to throw all my spare time into me - doing things that I want to do. She's welcome to come if she wants, and if she doesn't - that's on her. I also have an appointment with a different counselor for just me on Friday. 

I'm channeling pretty much all of my anger into physical activity. I've probably walked more in the past 2 weeks than in the previous month altogether - and now I can do a lot more push-ups! It's allowing me to get the emotion out without unloading on her - I think I want to save that for the MC sessions.

At the moment I'm still holding her back from my heart. I'm allowing some physical intimacy at the moment, and we're having a lot of heartfelt conversations. Whether her heart will love me again instead of the OW has yet to be seen - but she does seem committed to trying this - for now.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

And that all definitely sounds a lot braver than I feel. But I thats how I want to be so that's what I have to try to do, right?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> OW has said she will back off, doesn't want to f up our marriage or their work life.


Well, it's a bit bloody late for that!

"Gee! I feel so guilty! Guess I'll only partially f up your marriage!"

Gee, yeah, boss. Thanks. You are a real star.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Freckle,
You need to think about this a bit. 

I am going to preface this with a disclaimer: I have absolutely no idea what the true "right" answer is. 

If it was me, I might do this, but I'm not sure. You give her these choices:
1. She finds another job and the two of you make it work
2. She finds another job and you part ways
3. She keeps her job, minimizes contact with OW and you two make it work 
4. She keeps her job, minimizes contact with OW and you two end up parting ways

You tell her that choice number 4 may result in you parting very badly. And that she needs to be aware that you might be very vindictive or aggressive. 




freckleface said:


> And that all definitely sounds a lot braver than I feel. But I thats how I want to be so that's what I have to try to do, right?


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

I agree with y'all and think you're right.

I do not believe my WW regrets her actions - how it happened, maybe, but not that it happened. Stepping outside myself I can understand that - but inside myself...no. She wants the OW but is comfortable with me.

I believe I'm going to have to end this soon. I don't think she's strong enough to leave me given our history and her personal history with anxiety, etc.

I have my own therapist appt today - I intend to talk with her about leaving and what's best for me.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Well, I packed her a bag and sent her to stay with her parents. Right now I'm enforcing no contact with her until our MC session on Wednesday. I just don't feel I can trust her and don't want to sleep next to her as a result.

I have a feeling this is our death knell, and I rung it - but whatever..I didn't do this, she did. Time for me to pick up and move on, I think. 

But this still sucks.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

freckleface said:


> So how doomed does this sound?


If she quits her job you have a chance.

If she won`t quit her job leave her now and avoid the inevitable pain of having to wonder what's going on between them every day all day. 
Wondering if it's really stopped or just went underground.

Your first boundary should be her quitting the job.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

freckleface said:


> I *think* that if I told her she had to quit she'd leave me, which is pretty telling of how I feel about this stuff.



Then you are done and have no hope.

I`d end it as quickly and completely as I could.

Go dark on her, as it helps you get past it faster.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Yeah I think that's where we're at. 

I don't think that this break is going to make her realize she misses me, but that it's time to go.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Man, this is going to be hard. I miss her a lot, even if she emotionally wasn't here with me when I woke up.

I haven't cried since she left, but I am pretty miserable.


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## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

I hope you are using this time to emotionally detach from her. This will enable you to make decisions about possible reconciliation from a place of emotional security rather than emotional neediness. If she does not want to reconcile, it will put you in a better place to move on without her.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Wanting a Strong Marriage said:


> I hope you are using this time to emotionally detach from her. This will enable you to make decisions about possible reconciliation from a place of emotional security rather than emotional neediness. If she does not want to reconcile, it will put you in a better place to move on without her.


I hope I am too, and it's good advice. I'm trying to refrain from thinking of any of the good times and focus on the things that have disappointed me about her over the years. 

I know time is the only thing that will heal this, but I sure wish I could check-out while that's happening.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Oh, and my MIL has now taken to emailing me about this since she's at home. She's trying to be supportive but I don't think I can take support from her family..in fact I think that once I can get my confirmation she's really done (cause clearly I'm an idiot and not) - I might make a nice huge move across the country and cut ties as completely as possible.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

If you want to R with your wife and give it any kind of shot she has to leave the job. Moving locations and the travel are just excuses of why it is OK to stay. But come on she was in this enviorment when the A started.

If you demand that she leaves the job and you think she is going to leave you. Help her pack her bags. If she is not willing to leave the job to fix things with you. You do not have any real commtment to R.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

If they aren't ending the affair, you should notify hr about it. Not out of spite, but because it's morally wrong. It's unfair to other workers who wont understand why she is getting special treatment and better reviews etc. those other workers have families too and its not fair to let the boss both break up your marriage, but also cheat these other people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

FF,

I am so sorry you re going through this. But there are people here that have been there and can help you. Even if you just post to vent, it at least can be somewhat therapeutic to release the emotional burden. I really pray that your wife sees the light but regardless of what happens you will be okay.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Freckleface now she is going to play that favorite cheater's game "Let's See Who Caves First". I think she thinks you cannot live without her. That's why you need to stay strong and go completely dark. 

I have a feeling she will not show up for MC.

I commend you for standing up for yourself and enforcing your boundaries. Wish we had more here like you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

freckleface said:


> I hope I am too, and it's good advice. I'm trying to refrain from thinking of any of the good times and focus on the things that have disappointed me about her over the years.
> 
> I know time is the only thing that will heal this, but I sure wish I could check-out while that's happening.


No! Please do NOT do that. You'll just confuse yourself and make yourself more miserable.

Would counselling be an option?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

freckleface said:


> Oh, and my MIL has now taken to emailing me about this since she's at home. She's trying to be supportive but I don't think I can take support from her family..in fact I think that once I can get my confirmation she's really done (cause clearly I'm an idiot and not) - I might make a nice huge move across the country and cut ties as completely as possible.


Your MIL knows she has made a mistake.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks guys - it does help to vent. 

So far I'm maintaining no contact with her. She has told me she has a therapy appt today on her own and plans to show up tomorrow - but I haven't responded yet.

I f'n hate it. I want so much to cave here - regardless of who is right or wrong. Clearly I am not in control at all here of my emotions and am playing 'drowning man' to this - just wanting to thrash and grab at what we had.

Intellectually I hate it, but emotionally I feel so raw and beat up and....just really really lost. My therapist on friday told me this was normal, as she put it:

I've lost 20 pounds during this time
I can't sleep
I can't concentrate on work (and work is a big pride point for me..and part of our issues in our relationship, of course)
I used to have hair over 3 feet long, but during the course of this I kind of lost my mind and cut it from butt-length to shoulder length.

So I don't recognize my wife, my life, or my own physical self. But knowing that really doesn't help as much as I'd like it to. I'm trying to keep myself busy with friends, but all I can do when I'm out with them is think of her. I can get away from it for a few minutes, but then I'm right back to obsessing. 

I'm currently taking some tylenol PM at night just so I can force myself to sleep - it lets me get at least 5 hours in before I do the waking up every hour and having retarded dreams about reconciliation.

I would be completely lying if I said I'm not hopeful for tomorrow and pinning a lot on getting an answer there. I'm not sure what I will do if she's still confused and can't commit..I have a feeling I'll wait.

In other words, I'm doing all the wrong things emotionally even if I'm trying not to. I expect this to explode horribly in my face.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> If they aren't ending the affair, you should notify hr about it. Not out of spite, but because it's morally wrong. It's unfair to other workers who wont understand why she is getting special treatment and better reviews etc. those other workers have families too and its not fair to let the boss both break up your marriage, but also cheat these other people.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand what you're saying, and part of me would really love to do that. But, I don't think I can. It's not me.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I hope it goes well, Freckleface, I really do.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

FF,

Just take care of you. I think you are changing too.

It takes 2 to have a relationship.

Just take each day at a time and keep moving forward.

Plus, do not cave. You are a strong intelligent woman who deserves better. Better is a loyal, loving spouse.

I was in a position like you are now many years agog. I cut all ties and moved away.

It was the best decision of my life.

And vent here all you want.

HM64


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

I've started making noise at work about transferring to an office across the country. I thought it would be mostly just noise, but they seem genuinely interested in letting me do it. So I am making some other plans.

I've decided that if she's ending this, I'm going to head home to my parents for at least a week so that I can cut her out cold turkey for a while. I have managed to save up almost a month of vacation, so maybe I'll do something wild and go somewhere I've always wanted to go but we didn't make time for.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

freckleface said:


> I understand what you're saying, and part of me would really love to do that. But, I don't think I can. It's not me.


Why? This OW has walked in and abused her position to break up your marriage. Why would you pull a single punch?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

freckleface said:


> I've started making noise at work about transferring to an office across the country. I thought it would be mostly just noise, but they seem genuinely interested in letting me do it. So I am making some other plans.
> 
> I've decided that if she's ending this, I'm going to head home to my parents for at least a week so that I can cut her out cold turkey for a while. I have managed to save up almost a month of vacation, so maybe I'll do something wild and go somewhere I've always wanted to go but we didn't make time for.


These seem like really positive things to do for yourself. And if she does decide to choose the marriage, she will have to quit her job to come to you. I think you are stronger than you realize. You are taking action in your life even when it hurts. That's your inner strength shining through.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

freckleface said:


> I understand what you're saying, and part of me would really love to do that. But, I don't think I can. It's not me.


I think in this situation you need to look into a book called No More Mister Nice Guy. Its usually recommended to husbands here because they have made a statement similar to this one.

Also, go to the gym, lift weights as often as you can. Excercise helps more than any other single thing. I releases chemicals that are healing mentally and physicaly. The thing about weights over other forms of excercise, is it puts your brain into neutral since you have to concentrate so hard on what you are doing. Unlike running, cycling, etc., where your mind can wander, counting, grunting, breathing and balancing weights is a great way to keep focus and give you a mental break from what is stressing you out.

Also, your IC should be familiar with PTSD as you are going through severe trauma. Vets state dealing with adultery is like being in a battle and advise this regularly.

Good luck and prayers 

Chap


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Why? This OW has walked in and abused her position to break up your marriage. Why would you pull a single punch?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its not pulling the punch on the OW - it's about not doing hurtful things to my WW even though she's hurt me. I don't want to look back at what we had and know that I did things to hurt her in the end.

The wrongdoing in this part of the relationship is on her, and I don't want to take up any of the slack or contribute to it. Well, that's not true. I *WANT* to very much..but I do not want to do that myself.

I've been very tempted to just show up in the OW's place and basically say "Ya know, I can report you to HR if you don't leave her alone." but the WW is the one who has to end things, not me.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Freckleface, go to the drug store and get a bottle of generic Benadryl. 

Take three pills before bedtime. It works better than Tylenl PM and just as good as Lunesta or Ambien, and its not addictive. 

I went through everything and nothing worked, then I went and bought a five dollar bottle of Benadryl and it knocked me out like a light. I slept like a baby.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks for the tip! I will do that today.

We have an MC session today. I still feel like this will be our last one. I feel stronger today than I did before, but i know this is just part of the roller coaster.

I went out with a bunch of friends over the past few nights and have had a good time. Went to some bars and while I didn't get drunk, I did get hit on a lot which made me feel good. But, it also confirmed that I'm really just interested in my wife still. :/

I wish she could just make up her ****ing mind. I feel like I'm stuck in a relationship with an emotional child.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

No FF.

you are stuck in a relationship with a selfish, immature child.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Well you guys have definitely given a lot of great advice and put good words and phrases to my feelings. I'm taking a lot of this information in notes to the MC session so that I am able to get all the things said that I need to say. I'm also bringing my "Goodbye" letter to her as well. I have no idea if I'll be strong enough to do any of that - I tend to want to give in when I see her.

This part of love realllly sucks.

Her mom told me today she still hasn't told her anything - I'm the only source of information that they have on this. I wished her luck in further communicating with her daughter once I'm no longer around, because I'm definitely not staying in contact with any of them when this goes further south.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

FF

Love sucks but with the right person it can be so great.

Go find the right person.

Today is the day you move forward with your life for you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

MC session was actually pretty good - the counselor did a good job of digging in to her running away from feelings and tough situations problems she has. She actually seemed to take a lot of it to heart, but I suppose time shall tell.

I told her that the separation is hard for me but that its good, too. She admitted to being concerned that I'm going out a ton without her - she knows the people I'm out with are a bit wild, and I told her that is why I was out with them. It's carefree fun where I don't have to think about what happened. She admitted she was worried in general about what I am up to and misses me a lot. I told her that I am not preventing her from coming home.

So I kept up with not contacting her after the session. After she was done with work she txt'd me and asked if she could come over and cuddle and watch some TV. So we did that and she was pretty clingy. I made a point of getting up frequently and making sure that when I sat down, I did not go to her at all and she had to come to me.

I dunno. I think I'm going to be on this roller coaster for a while longer. I do get what you guys are saying, but I can't walk away from 15 years over one mistake if we can reconcile. We aren't reconciling yet, I don't know that we will. But we're skirting the topic and I'm letting her be the one who pushes forward for now. I seem to be ok doing this for now (meaning today) - but if that changes I'll have to walk away.

Last night was the first night I slept through the whole night, and I do feel better today.


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

You're one of the guys who can do a 180 without being told good show mate good show.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

anonymouskitty said:


> You're one of the guys who can do a 180 without being told good show mate good show.


I went ahead and looked that up on this site - what a bunch of great advice. I have been doing that to a point - but I do still try to make some things easy on her and I have to break that habit whether we R or not. The counselor was really great a pointing out all the ways in which she's co-dependent on me and I allow it. 

I'm still not in touch with my anger because I'm putting it into physical exercise and trying to hold on to it for individual counseling. I am a little worried it's all going to come raging out at some point, but as of right now I really can't find it.

For me this is really weird, because I definitely have a quick temper usually.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

freckleface said:


> Its not pulling the punch on the OW - it's about not doing hurtful things to my WW even though she's hurt me. I don't want to look back at what we had and know that I did things to hurt her in the end.
> 
> The wrongdoing in this part of the relationship is on her, and I don't want to take up any of the slack or contribute to it. Well, that's not true. I *WANT* to very much..but I do not want to do that myself.
> 
> I've been very tempted to just show up in the OW's place and basically say "Ya know, I can report you to HR if you don't leave her alone." but the WW is the one who has to end things, not me.


And because you are who you are, and the kind of person you are, that's why, down the line, your WW will regret how she treated you and what she did to you.

I am so sorry you are in this position.

Why not take a holiday in England? The weather is rubbishy at the moment, but... oh. Maybe somewhere sunny, instead?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

freckleface said:


> I went ahead and looked that up on this site - what a bunch of great advice. I have been doing that to a point - but I do still try to make some things easy on her and I have to break that habit whether we R or not. The counselor was really great a pointing out all the ways in which she's co-dependent on me and I allow it.
> 
> I'm still not in touch with my anger because I'm putting it into physical exercise and trying to hold on to it for individual counseling. I am a little worried it's all going to come raging out at some point, but as of right now I really can't find it.
> 
> For me this is really weird, because I definitely have a quick temper usually.


You might be in shock.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Yeah, I think I am still in shock. And clearly have some unresolved issues with acting out. I've twice put myself in the spot where I behaved inappropriately and had to leave/turn down revenge sex and didn't want to - at the time anyway. Clearly some **** is unresolved if I keep putting myself in this spot, then beating myself up for being in it. The whole point of this is to not be self destructive, with or without her. Last night i came really close to going home with someone and only stopped myself at the last minute. Today I feel pretty gross about it.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

FF
Yes you are angry and emotional.

I am glad you stopped yourself short of the ONS. You will just beat yourself up the next day and it will not make you feel better.

Just keep moving forward without her. Work on your happiness. That is all that matters. Detach from her.

Absence might make the heart grow fonder, sometimes it does not. But no matter what take care you, deal with those emotions and go find happiness.

It might just be with someone different, living in a new city or pursuing a new job.

Or maybe all f the above???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Maybe I missed it, but is the other woman married?

If there's a chance of reconciliation between you and your wife, one thing I would do is go to the other woman at her office, explain that SHE needs to find another place to work (since your wife will have difficulty doing that) or you WILL talk to HR and her husband (if there is one).


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

No, she's not married - recently out of a long term relationship herself.

I don't know how much of the WW's indecision is about the OW at this point or about our relationship. My WW is not a strong person and not used to dealing with her emotions or anything tough. This is a huge character test for her, and if she fails...well she's going to have a rough time/unhappy time in life as she realizes not everything is going to be easy, and her major support system is gone.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

As the day crawls on and gets closer to tonight I keep feeling way more dread. I'm supposed to go on a date with the WW tonight, but I am not sure if I even want to see her right now.

I couldn't wait to see her on tuesday/wednesday. 

Every day I wake up without her it's a little easier. I feel like I'm starting to flop more over to the side of just pushing her away and being done with this.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

Do you have to see her tonite, FF? I mean, don't go if you don't think you can deal with it.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

freckleface said:


> As the day crawls on and gets closer to tonight I keep feeling way more dread. I'm supposed to go on a date with the WW tonight, but I am not sure if I even want to see her right now.
> 
> I couldn't wait to see her on tuesday/wednesday.
> 
> Every day I wake up without her it's a little easier. I feel like I'm starting to flop more over to the side of just pushing her away and being done with this.


You should tell her this. She needs to understand that the clock is running out and she is not the only one who controls if your relationship is on/off.

I think your putting yourself into hook up situations and then pulling back is about two things:
1. Reaffirming that you can attract 
2. Reaffirming that you are a person of character who unlike your WW will refuse to go there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Unsure in Seattle said:


> Do you have to see her tonite, FF? I mean, don't go if you don't think you can deal with it.


Have to? no, of course not. I feel weird about canceling the date. I am not just being held hostage by her, here..it's also me.

I would love to just say get out and be done with it, but the thought of that makes me feel sick. I don't particularly want her to be home and don't plan to invite her back - but at the same time I don't want her at work seeing the OW and not seeing me.

I keep thinking that I know what I want when I say I want to try with her, but I'm not sure that's true anymore. I'm really starting to consider the possibility of living without her and it's not nearly as awful as it was before. I still don't like it at all, and still want her back - but I wonder how much of that is just reaction to having it taken away from me instead of choosing to leave or there being some other natural conclusion.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I think if you see her tonight, you have to lay it on the table and make her decide. If she's too weak to decide, she'll be too weak to be a faithful partner in the future.

But it sounds like you have already checked out of the marriage and if that's the case and you are past the point of no return, tell her that you are moving on without her because it doesn't sound like she is strong enough to make a decision either way.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

Yes.

She has to make a decision or you'll be making it for her.

I feel it's perfectly fine/reasonable/whatever to tell her precisely that.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

"I love you to pieces, I'd love to work with you in order have a stronger marriage. Just the thought of losing you makes me feel horrible. The though of divorce is horrible, the last thing I would choose. BUT it's something even worse than losing you which it is sharing you. No matter how horrible would be the divorce sooner or later I'd accept it and recover from it but sharing you is something I'd never accept, in any way, shape or form. I'd have to let you go to persue your happines. You are more than free to choose whatever makes you happier, except being with someone else while married to me".

She knows you very well, she knows her (OW), she doesn't need "time" to make a decision. It's a hard decision to make but she has to make it NOW. You can't share her anymore. It's done deal in your head, you already made your choice of not sharing her. Tell her. Tell her what hard decisions she has to make to choose you.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

freckleface said:


> Yeah, I think I am still in shock. And clearly have some unresolved issues with acting out. I've twice put myself in the spot where I behaved inappropriately and had to leave/turn down revenge sex and didn't want to - at the time anyway. Clearly some **** is unresolved if I keep putting myself in this spot, then beating myself up for being in it. The whole point of this is to not be self destructive, with or without her. Last night i came really close to going home with someone and only stopped myself at the last minute. Today I feel pretty gross about it.


Thank God you did. See, I made the mistake of a revenge affair. It doesn't help. It made me feel worse. My wife and I got over it, however...


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

freckleface said:


> As the day crawls on and gets closer to tonight I keep feeling way more dread. I'm supposed to go on a date with the WW tonight, but I am not sure if I even want to see her right now.
> 
> I couldn't wait to see her on tuesday/wednesday.
> 
> Every day I wake up without her it's a little easier. I feel like I'm starting to flop more over to the side of just pushing her away and being done with this.


Cheating can do that. Two years after Dday I sent mine packing. I just couldn't see it anymore. It worked out just great and I hope she is doing fine.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

She stayed here the past two nights. We had a decent time on Friday night and Saturday day, but a bit of an emotional time last night.

She says she wants to move back in but I told her there is no rush and the name of the game right now is patience. I have been sleeping better with her not home, and I think I'm doing more to move away from the marriage with her out. So I don't want to rush her back while I'm still sorting my head out.

A lot of her traits I don't like are directly in front of my face and I'm trying to look pretty hard at them to figure out if they're things I can live with again or not.

I have to admit I'm pretty disgusted with how indecisive she is, and her lack of ability to deal with difficult things. I really shouldn't be surprised - her parents are pretty stunted emotionally too. 

She left here today to go to a baby shower with her mother and I know she was feeling pretty anxious and had tears in her eyes. I'm supposed to go to dinner tonight with her and her parents - it's the FIL's bday dinner. I told her I could do that if she wanted me to, but I'm fine not going too. She's asked me to go, so for now I'll do that.

In the mean time I'm going to go to a friend's party (a harmless one, no chance of doing stupid things) and try to have some fun today. My goal each day is going to be to keep working out, do something fun for me, and get through the day. If she can't make up her mind, I'll hit a point where I tap out. I'm not there yet, but I'm not letting her hinder my social life or personal growth right now..and I'm clearly in no shape to date anyone else either - so I guess I feel I don't have anything to lose by seeing where this plays out, for now.

I did tell her about the other night - just that there was almost cheating but I stopped myself. She didn't want to hear more details than that, and "needed time to process" - so who knows what that means.

My gut says our relationship is dead - she isn't in love with me but doesn't know how to let go. I think I'm okay with that, and will try to cut her out if this gets too be too emotional. I think I will anyway, I hope I am strong enough if it gets to that point.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

The WW is back at the house. So far it's been okay - she's been a bit melancholy but I've ignored it and done my own thing. I had a great day at work yesterday with some of my coworkers, and went out to dinner with some friends.

When I got home she was just getting back for the gym as I was taking the dog for a walk. She asked to join me and we shared some idle chit-chat. We watched some TV together and cuddled after that, before heading off to bed.

She's been fairly clingy with me when she's around me. I don't discourage or encourage it - I cuddle her when she comes to me but I'm not shy about getting up and doing other things, and not necessarily coming back to her after.

I know the OW is back at work this week and I'm sure that's not helping anything. We both have individual counseling sessions today, then MC tomorrow. We'll see what she has to say then, but for now I'm going to continue to keep it light and not engage.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You're doing great!


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

out of curiosity, are you in a state that legally recognizes your marriage? I ask for legal reasons if you do split up and how complicated (legally not emotionally obviously) it will get.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Yeah - we're lucky in that regard. I've always done everything electronically as far as finances go so we have all the records of who contributed how much and when, but I don't know that I care so much about "getting what's mine" vs just getting away if it comes to that. I make at least double what she makes, so financially life will be easier for me w/o her, harder for her w/o me.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Hmm. Did OW cheat her way out of her last relationship, I wonder?


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

I really don't know that much about the OW other than they work together and I've met her once, and I know a bit about what she used to do for work.

I could totally take her out in a fight. 

Sorry the 5 year old in me popped out there.

Supposed to see the WW here in a bit - we've both had IC today. My therapist pointed out how checked out I am, and I agree with her. I think I might actually just pack up my **** at some point this week and go stay with a friend, unless something happens tomorrow in MC to make me feel like I'm hanging around for a reason.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

It may not seem like it for feel like it, FF...

but you're handling this pretty well, all things considered. Keep your head up.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks, it really helps to have somewhere to vent to.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

And no..it doesn't feel like it. 

I feel like an idiot for waiting around. Then I feel like 2 months out of 15 years is a drop in the bucket, so why am I so impatient? Then I remember the betrayal and I want to barf and get away from her.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

freckleface said:


> And no..it doesn't feel like it.
> 
> I feel like an idiot for waiting around. Then I feel like 2 months out of 15 years is a drop in the bucket, so why am I so impatient? Then I remember the betrayal and I want to barf and get away from her.


Oh, God! I do feel for you, Freckleface! Why does this happen to us? Drat it to heck and other such useful phrases of invective. (If that's the right word!?)

BTW, your board name is pretty cool!


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Hey thanks. It's a pretty apt name, and just anonymous enough that I don't think the wife will find it.

I have no idea why this happens to us. Tonight dinner was supposed to be light, but she made a joke that just triggered for me so I left her at the restaurant. I stayed out a while and finally came home. When I did I asked her why she was here.

She said she felt like this weekend was a turning point and was supposed to represent to me that she's here and ready to reconcile. I told her my impression was that she doesn't really want to be here but doesn't know how to leave.

At that point she took what I said as she's not trying hard enough and it's not going to be enough and basically started having a pity party. I feel bad it went that way, but doesn't she see how I could wonder why she's not committed? You'd think an hours worth of emotion and crying is the end of the ****ing world, and this all hurts so much.

I didn't get angry, I just listened to her and then eventually left her to sleep. 

It's going to be an interesting session tomorrow I think.

She makes me feel so conflicted. I want to believe her, but she lies. I can't trust her right now. I told her that's the big thing we have to work on, and lean on the therapists for. Because this will only work if I can trust her and right now I can't. She also seemed to take that as nothing she does will be good enough.

Man, she needs to grow up.


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## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

freckleface said:


> She also seemed to take that as nothing she does will be good enough.


Is she right? You are very obviously emotionally disconnecting from her. What do you need from her to reconnect? Do you think that she is capable of giving you that? If you don't think she is, that could explain it.

Is it that she is doing the minimum and expecting maximum results that keeps you distant? Or are you distant because the relationship has fundamentally changed and there is no going back from that?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

freckleface said:


> Yeah - we're lucky in that regard. I've always done everything electronically as far as finances go so we have all the records of who contributed how much and when, but I don't know that I care so much about "getting what's mine" vs just getting away if it comes to that. I make at least double what she makes, so financially life will be easier for me w/o her, harder for her w/o me.


hmmm......


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Wanting a Strong Marriage said:


> Is she right? You are very obviously emotionally disconnecting from her. What do you need from her to reconnect? Do you think that she is capable of giving you that? If you don't think she is, that could explain it.
> 
> Is it that she is doing the minimum and expecting maximum results that keeps you distant? Or are you distant because the relationship has fundamentally changed and there is no going back from that?


I'm not sure if it's the level of what she's doing, the fact that we aren't having serious talks, or if in general we're just not communicating well.

That's going to be the focus of our MC today - how do we have productive conversations where we can both express ourselves without the other seeing it as an attack.

She felt like I was attacking her contributions because I said her waffling on moving back in didn't give me the impression we were reconciling.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> hmmm......


Yeah. But neither of us are going to be hard off financially. She'll get a huge chunk of change from our joint savings alone if we split. I don't think that this is a huge factor for her - money has never been super important to either of us.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

freckleface said:


> Hey thanks. It's a pretty apt name, and just anonymous enough that I don't think the wife will find it.













sorry, couldn't help myself


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

So the MC session went really well. I do not want to let myself feel hopeful but I will admit that I do. I think we finally had a breakthrough today where she realized that what I'm asking her to do is try and work on our marriage - not decide right now that she's going to be committed to me for the rest of our lives (again..like we did when we got married). I told her I wasn't ready to recommit myself to her like that - we have a lot of work to do before I can say that sort of thing again. But that the point is that we work on this stuff together, and be more open/honest - but with care towards each others feelings. 

I still plan to keep on with all the stuff I've got going on, taking time for me, doing things with friends, and in general working on keeping myself happy. But, I do intend also to try and watch her to see where her efforts lie, and see if I believe she really does want to reconcile and isn't just scared. If she is willing to put in the effort, I definitely am as well, I just want to see it first before I'll believe the words, because I've no trust for her words right now.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Might be worth warning her boss off.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

The boss situation is now forever tainted. One of them needs to go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Might be worth warning her boss off.


I dunno that I trust myself to talk to her. I think this will be a test for the WW - does she end contact or not?

I don't think she can handle the double life, so to speak. I think she'll give herself away quickly if she starts rekindling things. But maybe I'm foolish there.

I think the WW will come to the conclusion on her own that it's time to move jobs. She admitted in her own IC and our MC that she's stayed at this job because it's easier to stay than to find something new. I know she's burned out on a lot of the actual work itself. I'm waiting to see what she's offering me as part of this reconciliation. 

I still don't consider us started reconciling until she can do something to make me believe that there is NC. I mean I'm not going to be a **** to her or anything, but I'm going to try and keep my emotions at bay until I see some sincerity there that I can trust/believe.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Exactly. You need to ignore her words and only listen to her actions. Talk is cheap.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Oh, I should mention that the WW wants to go away together this weekend, but I haven't committed to it yet. I'm having a lot of trust issues with her and I'm not sure if I could stay on the keep it light, don't get emotional track I'm on now away with her.

That seems like a big red flag to me about how I'm feeling. Our MC said we're a long ways away from rebuilding trust, and I dunno if I can live with someone that I don't feel like I can trust. I feel the urge to spy on her pretty heavily, and I hate that feeling in me.

I should also note: even if I wanted to keylog her computer, etc - she has a work phone and work computer that I do not have regular access to, and couldn't install that stuff on.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

personally I believe that if you want to have a successful R from infidelity that the BS has to spy/snoop

it helps rebuild trust when you see over and over again that she is doing what she says she is doing or

protects you if she is going underground


as such if you have no interest in spying on her then I don't recommend R


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Go someplace where you can get a separate room if you feel it's getting too intense.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

In my humble opinion, trying to start reconciliation while there's still contact is a non-starter. It's just not possible to have true reconciliation as long as she works there. You aren't helping matters by not telling her this. Wanting her to come to that same conclusion herself probably won't work.

You once said that you thought if you pushed that issue that she would choose the job over you. Look, you're halfway out the door anyway. Why not push the issue and see for sure whether she'll choose the job over you. Once she knows it's an issue she may surprise you. And if she doesn't surprise you then you get to move on faster.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> I think the WW will come to the conclusion on her own that it's time to move jobs.


Very wise. She has to reach out to this conclusion and make a choice as we make them many times in life. You don't mention it, you don't demand it. You just remain at arm's length without all the obvious requerements met. If you blatantly force her to quit she will build up resentments no matter what. It doesn't mean she can project into you and resent you anyway but there'are also chances she consider quiting it a "choice" she had to make (to get something better) which lessen that posibility tremendously.
I think the best chances at reconciliation always come when the wayward feels totaly free to choose her path, without pressures by exposure, ultimatums, etc.
That's why I posted earlier you need to speak emphatically she's free to go to AP but without you. You won't share her.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

So just to be clear - I have told her I think that working with her boss is an issue, and plenty of people make others quit their jobs. I've also made it clear that the one ask I've had on her is NC.

Until I see that NC and hear it from her - I dunno - I don't really think we're in R. I agree with you guys there.

I just want to like myself on the other side of this - whether it's with her or not. And I feel like if I do things that I don't want to do (ask her to leave her job, force her to make choices she might not be ready to make) - I likely will regret that later.

I don't want to be blind to this but don't have a lot of choices unless I wish to hack her phone or computer. So I have a feeling unless she's able to do something to make me feel more comfortable soon, I'm going to have to tap out because I don't like the distrust.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yes, above all, maintain your integrity. You have a lot of years ahead of you. There's another poster who's been sitting on an infidelity for 30 years and it's eating him alive.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Short update: WW and I are getting along well. We've had a few good dates and are having an easy time in each others company. Of course, this is not really dealing with any of our problems., so it's not/shouldn't be surprising it's not difficult.

The WW can feel my distance and is doing a lot to try and pull me back into the moment/pay attention to her. I'm giving in to a point but still keeping myself back until we're able to get past some of the bigger questions/problems. She just doesn't get to have all of me until I know I have all of her again. She's told me it hurts when I pull back - my response to her has been so far that it's the only defense I have against what she's done and it still hurts right now.

She's made a lot more off-hand/volunteered comments about how the affair was a mistake, so crazy two weeks could wreck so much, etc. I dunno how much I believe what she's saying vs her thinking her getting caught is so bad - that's just my level of distrust for her right now. 

I have at least twice told her in the past few days that I am not holding her back from her AP and if she chooses her it's ok, things can still be amicable - she just looks sad when I say that and has said she's choosing me.

I wish I could believe her, and that I didn't think she's just got things underground/hiding from me. But that's going to take time in addition to her doing NC, which she claims she is. I dunno - I hate this mess.

I hate that she did this to me and to us and that she had no willpower to resist. I want to believe that eventually we can come out of this stronger, but I am too upset to see that path and there's still so much work we both have to do before that kind of thing can be true. And I just don't know that she's going to be resilient enough to stand up and do the work. I see my WW as weak, and I am skeptical that will change.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Your marriage will never be the same, again.

It might not survive, it might be worse, or, even, better, eventually. 

But not the same.

It can't be. Your WW stole your innocence and broke your trust.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

It definitely won't be the same, that's for sure. But - some of that is positive, too. As I'm coming out of my own fog/shock/whatever - I know I wasn't happy for at least 2 years and was on cruise control. My whole life was on cruise control. 

I was doing what I needed to do at work x100 to get some crazy things done, and I just burnt myself out. Not justifying the wife looking elsewhere for attention or anything - I just know I wasn't there or available. Of course, the ding on the wife there is that she didn't pull me back or help me out there either, which is part of why I'm doing a lot of considering if she's the right one for me for another 15 years.

I'm happy to report my appetite is coming back! This ordeal caused me to lose about 25 pounds, which is a nice silver lining. Certainly has helped me with a confidence boost, anyway!

At this point, I'm still at least somewhat in the betrayed spouse fog. I do still want to work things out with the WW and am seeing her progress more each day. Things move better on the weekends when she isn't going to work, so probably it's better when she doesn't see the OW. Typical and not shocking to the rest of you I'm sure.

I have caught myself trying to make plans here and there for us further out than a month and stopped myself. I keep reminding that happy part in my brain that we're not actually moving forward yet and to slow the hell down. I think we're doing well reconnecting, but I am still watching her like a hawk. Her actions are great most of the time, but they are lacking at times.

I've made some plans for us this week to go out with some new friends, and I've made a fair amount of solo plans as well. So far still planning to continue with the other personal improvements and solo activities. I do believe if this does end I'm in a much better place mentally (and physically!) to deal with it, so that's positive at least. 

I still wish none of it had ever happened - but that's not a bell that can be unrung.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> Things move better on the weekends when she isn't going to work, so probably it's better when she doesn't see the OW.


Drop it subtly. Don't know how. She has to reach the comclusion ond her own. She has to realize quiting that job is a requisite for her marriage to work.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Drop it subtly. Don't know how. She has to reach the comclusion ond her own. She has to realize quiting that job is a requisite for her marriage to work.


She actually said it herself that the week the OW was out of town it was easier, so she knows it.

I think a lot of right now is seeing if we can reconnect for both of us. While she knows the OW makes it hard - we still have damage from before the affair that we need to see if we can get past. It's not easy for me to be patient and wait through this period, but doing things that are a stretch for me will help me learn and grow either way...or so I tell myself.

I'm meeting some new people on Thursday without her and I feel weird about it. Happy and sad at the same time.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

freckleface said:


> She actually said it herself that the week the OW was out of town it was easier, so she knows it.


Which shows that the OW hasn't backed off, and your WS is still partially on the fence. She really needs to nd all contact with the OW permanently or this will resurface again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

She can only end all contact if she quits the job. And I think she has to reach that conclusion, not have me tell her.

I'm not sure if it means the OW hasn't backed off, or if just seeing her/being in meetings with her is tough. I would imagine just seeing her is tough.

I think that her IC and her own wanting to improve is going to push her to find a new job soon, or start looking. I'm not sure of that, but a lot of what she describes as wanting in the future is going to require her to stretch and grow, so I'm (possibly stupidly) waiting this out a bit.

I don't disagree with you Shaggy. I realize I'm binding myself to a person who has shown very little consideration for me. But I'm also trying to temper the advice here with where my WW is emotionally/growth wise as a person. She is pretty stunted and a lot of things that are obvious to normal people aren't to her. I realize I'm allowing her social anxiety to be a crutch for her behavior now - but if I do want this to work out I think I have to for the moment.

With that said - I have told myself that if I'm not seeing movements towards the types of improvements I think I should see within the next 2 months, I'm done. I won't make a big deal out of it, I'll just quietly make the arrangements and move out. But things have to be better for me to keep staying, or I'm done.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

There is aso the issue that the OW went where no boss can go. Your WW should have a talk to HR, because frankly even if she did respond to things willingly, the boss crossed the line by being involved at all. Even if the relationship was mutual , the boss should be fired for going there, and if you talked to HR she still likely would be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> There is aso the issue that the OW went where no boss can go. Your WW should have a talk to HR, because frankly even if she did respond to things willingly, the boss crossed the line by being involved at all. Even if the relationship was mutual , the boss should be fired for going there, and if you talked to HR she still likely would be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

freckleface said:


> She can only end all contact if she quits the job. And I think she has to reach that conclusion, not have me tell her.


I disagree. I think you should tell she needs a new job in order to make the R work especially if you are going to give it a finite length of time to get back on track.

My best to you Freckles! I hope it all works out for the best!

Edit: MattMatt is right about the boss crossing the line and that HR should be notified.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree with Falene. She needs to hear from you what you expect of her, for you to be willling to keep her.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Is he going to babysit her for the rest of his life on what she should or shouldn't do? Is she not an adult that can understand what needs to be done to achieve NC? Her coming to that conclusion is far more healthy then being forced to IMO.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

It's not forcing. It's communicating the requirements for reconciliation. To keep the requirement a secret and then punish her for not meeting it is passive agressive.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Er - just to be clear - I didn't say I was done if she didn't quit in 2 months... more that I need to see progress along a positive line. I've told her I want more open communication and more steps towards R before I consider us in R. There is no hidden agenda here - just a timetable by which I'm living for me. 

I am not telling her she has to quit - if she needs to quit in order to really R with me, then that's on her. If she's able to get over her stuff w/ her boss while still working there - then so be it. I'm not sure how the trust will work in that situation, but I imagine there are ways to do it. I currently work with a few different people who have had these sorts of things happen. The issue is her and her feelings and what she is choosing to do about them. I realize that's against all the conventional wisdom - and for good reason because it's less likely to work. I'm willing to take a bit of a risk here given the history and issues the WW has emotionally. For some period of time anyway.

If she gets her feelings and actions under control and can show me she really wants to R, I'm game for whatever the future holds. But until I see her making strides towards meeting my needs (which have been pretty clearly communicated both in and out of MC) - we're not in R. And if we're still not in R in another two months...I don't think that's being passive aggressive. That's having waited 4 months for the right signs that y'all say I should be seeing already if she was serious.

And at that point - who knows. Maybe my packing up and leaving will be what she needs to see from me to realize I'm going to be gone from her life. I've been pretty lenient and non-demanding with her to date, other than the briefly kicking her out thing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I said nothing about forcing. I said COMMUNICATING what he expects.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Sure - but if I don't know what my expectations are yet, I don't see how I can communicate them. So I'm starting with needs.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Man I don't like this at all. Its way to nice and soft. 
Brother I understand there is a balancing act that we all have to deal with, so lets this just be a warning.
You damb well better know your expectations..these are your boundries and if they are crossed there will be consequences.

She either takes this as controling or she can take this a protecting your emotions from futher pain, either way I think there has to be a push that commands a certain degree of respect and intolorance for her past behavior. 

I think my biggest concern here is your wishy washy additude that brings back the old frecleface, when now is the time to be the new freckleface that got you were you are today.

Again bro, Im just the guy looking out. Your closest to the sitch so take it for what its worth.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm feeling the need to point out that freckle face and her wife are both women. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

the guy said:


> Man I don't like this at all. Its way to nice and soft.
> Brother I understand there is a balancing act that we all have to deal with, so lets this just be a warning.
> You damb well better know your expectations..these are your boundries and if they are crossed there will be consequences.
> 
> ...


Yes. They are both women. 

To your point though, she is definitely taking a soft approach here, which we have seen on these boards is rarely effective. But I think freckleface already has one foot out the door herself.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Yes, we're both women. And yes, you are all correct - I am being very soft with her. My feeling is that this has to be soft now while she gains the coping and communication skills she's getting from our MC and her IC.

Our relationship has been one where we don't fight because she just doesn't allow it. If we have a disagreement that seems like it might even hint at getting uncomfortable/something she doesn't want to talk about, she just shuts down. It makes sense given her family and history etc - but going hard and fast here isn't going to get things to work with her.

I know a lot of you recommend the hardline approach - you've seen it work time and time again. I know that it will not work here...yet - if I do that then she is gone, or with me but resentful. And I realize the prevailing advice here would be - if you push and she goes then that's how its supposed to be. I'm not there yet.

I am seeing progress so far through the soft/patience approach - but I am definitely using this place as an outlet to express the fact that its not where I want it to be yet. I'm preparing for what folks here have told me is the inevitable - the soft approach isn't going to work and this is going to blow up in my face. I think that's a lot of why I have a foot out the door - and it's for good reason! She could very well blow all of this up in my face.

In her head, what we're doing right now is attempting to rebuild the relationship connection as much as posible so that the other questions she has about us, our future, herself, etc, can be answered. I don't know what those questions are, and for now I have plenty of my own questions and **** to deal with while we're getting along. So I don't feel like I have a ton to lose by the soft approach for now, and more to lose with the hard approach.

I have a feeling it'll come later if I'm not getting what I need and she's just moving too slow.

As for not knowing expectations - I know what I expect out of my wife. But I don't know what to expect as to how we get there. I know the prevailing opinion here is that if she sees the OW we're toast. That could be true - I don't want to get into an argument about it. I know it's often true. I still don't feel that it's on me to make that happen here by demanding she quit her job.

With that said, I am very tempted to send the OW an email or letter. The WW confided in one of her coworkers, although not about it being the boss part. The OW doesn't know that, though, and I feel like I could scare her ****less pretty easily with a totally nicely/calmly worded email. But I don't know if that would get back to my WW, and I don't know if I want to deal with the fallout from that.

I actually plan to bring some of this up at MC today. 

I'm not expecting you guys to sympathize with me when you've given me good advice and I'm not taking it - or at least not outright taking the advice. I'm using this place as an outlet when things feel overwhelming..and for the reality checks.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

freckleface said:


> Sure - but if I don't know what my expectations are yet, I don't see how I can communicate them. So I'm starting with needs.


 Then you don't have a plan, and you are going to flail around with ever-changing needs based on feelings, and fail.

Just sit down and figure out what you would require in a NEW marriage - things like honesty, transparency, recreation, SF, no independent behavior, no passwords on media...

Then relay THAT to her. If she's not willing to be that person, then let her go.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

The danger with the soft approach is that incomes very close to rugsweeping and that ends up leaving the core issues hurting the marriage unresolved.

The danger with the conflict avoidance is that it leaves both sides without their feelings expressed. That means the other person is left to assume what the other wants.

The issue of the OW is classic. You do know she has to go NC, but you are unwilling to say that because its full of risk and strong feeling. So you are left hoping she knows what to do and to do it.

Hope is essential to happiness, it keeps you going, but it is not an effective problem solving strategy.

But if she avoids conflict with the OW too, then what's to stop the OW pushing again for a relationship?

It is possible to communicate your wants and needs without fighting and conflict.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

You told us a few post earlier she feels your guard up that you pull away. The best aproach is making her to think. Every time she complains abut yout distance you ask her, make her think so she reaches her own conclusions. Put the ball in her court every time. For every complain you drop a question for her to respond to herself?
Why do you think there is a wall I feel like I should build?
Why do you think I have doubt about your commintment?
Why do you think I put you at arms lenght?
Why should be me the one to fix this?
Why should I asume you are done with OW in your mind?
And so on.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> The issue of the OW is classic. You do know she has to go NC, but you are unwilling to say that because its full of risk and strong feeling. So you are left hoping she knows what to do and to do it.


The only part of NC I haven't forced with her is the quitting of the job. I've told her she needs to go as NC as possible, so no talk other than business. She sent her a letter to that effect as well. I just have no way to enforce that or know if it's happening. I cannot hack her work computer or blackberry to verify. I know she's not on the WW's facebook or any other social networking sites. I know she's not texting with her as I can check out the bill, etc. I've not asked to read their work messages, but I suspect that it will be part of what I ask of her later.

I also suspect at some point I will have a conversation with the OW, whether the WW wants that or not. I just want to make sure I'm in the right mental space for that.

I do happen to know she's looking up the numbers of people I'm texting with that she doesn't recognize, so apparently she figured out how to log in and view our cell records. I found that in the search history on our shared computer.

I dunno, do I take her checking up on me when I'm not with her as a good sign or a null point?


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

I should note: She leaves her computers logged in to her email, social networking sites, etc. I don't look at them but could if I wanted, and she has said she considers those open to me.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> The danger with the soft approach is that incomes very close to rugsweeping and that ends up leaving the core issues hurting the marriage unresolved.
> 
> The danger with the conflict avoidance is that it leaves both sides without their feelings expressed. That means the other person is left to assume what the other wants.


I understand what you're driving at here, and rug-sweeping is part of my biggest fears. I can't move forward with her if that happens - I eventually need answers to these things, and I can't be with someone who would downplay something that would hurt me to that degree.

I had another IC session today after our MC and I'm feeling fairly positive at the moment. I'm maintaining a list of things I know I want going forward and keeping them with me. Today at MC we agreed to schedule a few time-bound and specific topic-focused discussions about where we're at and some of the things I need to know. 

While she's willing to answer my questions - she gets completely overwhelmed by her emotions right now and pretty much shuts down, depending on how we approach the conversation. We've gained some new skills in the past few sessions and my IC has been helping me a lot with recognizing some of my own motivations that push the wrong buttons in the WW. I'm hoping that these are fruitful and I don't feel short changed by how hampered my communication feels with her, so we shall see.

In the mean time - I'm still keeping her off-balance it seems. After we had dinner together last night, I went back out with some friends without her and had a good time. Tonight we're hanging out with some other friends of mine, but tomorrow I'm having dinner with some other folks without her again.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

You have been pointing out some of her issues. Is she getting some IC?


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Yes - she's going to IC at least once a week. Both her IC and our MC work with her each week on the whole getting overwhelmed when having conversations thing, as well as some other coping skills. So far I have actually seen a few improvements, and she seems to be eager to continue the work.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

She's shutting down because of fear. She doesn't feel safe. IIWY, I would back off of everything right now. Let her just BE. Let the IC do its work.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Well, she broached the subject of talking this weekend. I told her I'd like to if she's okay with that - she said the idea makes her nervous but she's okay.

I think we'll try and go for something easy and see how it goes so that the idea of these talks don't get too out of hand and it becomes something she can handle.

She left her email open on my computer - dunno why..she's got two of her own. Anyway. So I looked.

I found a message from her to the OW basically saying: I can't be just friends with you. The only option here is a professional relationship. Anything else will ruin my marriage. 

That made me happy, but the OW replied with "It's hard..." which made me rather unhappy. I'm now kind of obsessed with writing/calling her and telling her to take a flying leap, but I'm sitting on that for now. I've already written her a threatening email basically saying leave my wife alone or else...but I'm not ready to pull that trigger...yet. 

Fortunately the wife has a few rather large and looming projects at work hanging over her head that keep her on the phone or in meetings with tons of people every day. Her boss is not involved in any of these projects, as the WW got them from the boss' boss.

I should say the odd thing about her job is that I used to work there, so I know the business, the cast of characters, and who she winds up working with most of the time.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

you see why now she can't stay at that job?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

freckleface said:


> I found a message from her to the OW basically saying: I can't be just friends with you. The only option here is a professional relationship. Anything else will ruin my marriage.


wait a sec- is OW referring to her own marriage? if she's married her husband (or wife) deserves to know and you need to tell him/her stat


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why can't you approach the OW and tell her to back off?


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> wait a sec- is OW referring to her own marriage? if she's married her husband (or wife) deserves to know and you need to tell him/her stat


No - the WW said to the OW "I cannot be friends with you, the only option here is a professional relationship."

The OW is single, or her partner would already know.

I wouldn't say I "can't" approach the OW. I just haven't made that decision yet. I don't like to make threats lightly, because if I make it I will act on it. So I like to make sure I'm actually prepared to go through with what I say before I say it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

doesn't have to be a threat. Just tell her that you guys are going to work on your marriage and you're counting on her to do the honorable thing and stay away from your wife.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Well, I was having a rough day today with some triggers from my trip home (time period she was going on dates with the OW while I was out of state). She approached me a few times to talk but I let her know I just wasn't in the right state for it.

She pushed for conversation a bit later and I let her know what I was having issues with. She was sad I was so upset but understood that this is going to last a while, etc. She was pretty eager to offer whatever kind of comfort or action I needed (leaving me alone, holding me, whatever) - which is a step up from the avoidance tactic she was taking a few weeks ago.

At that point she pushed again for more conversation so we had a short one. I'll be terse in my wording here - but the conversation was a lot wordier as I was attempting to use some of the conversational skills we've learned that make her feel like she has the safety and space to answer truthfully. So, the gist is I asked where things stood with the OW, had they been in contact, what kind, etc. She told me about the email exchange and that the OW had been pushing for regular friendship, but that what I had seen was her pushing back saying no. While the OW did the one response with "it's hard" there had been nothing since.

There are two work events coming up that the OW will be at. The WW has declined one of them on her own because the OW will be there, and has asked me if I would be willing to go to the other. The second event is a work conference in another city - it's a large conference and one that most of her team will be going to. She would be in different tracks than the OW and likely not see her except at functions after the conference events - which is why she wants me there. So we can do other things or so she can attend them with me and avoid the OW.

I asked her to make a pro/con list of the trip, what would be good for her career/learning wise to go vs the cost of having me and the OW in the same area at the same time. I asked her to take that to her IC and make sure that there aren't other motives or things lurking around in there that she isn't aware of driving that ask. She agreed to all of that and that it was a good idea.

I am generally open to the idea - the conference is in a city we've had a lot of fun in and I'm able to work remotely from there at the time if I choose. I'm not crazy about the idea of seeing the OW, but I don't think it will be a huge deal for me. She admitted that it's still not easy seeing the OW, but that it's getting easier. She feels that the issue there now is less about the OW and more about the loss of something else. We've been together so long, giving up the OW and that fantasy life means giving up the idea of ever being the adult/single girl in the city/living totally on her own independent of everyone/etc. She also said she realizes that sort of lifestyle would probably be fun for about 6 months and then she would be back to wanting what we had again. 

She has really been into the time we're spending together and feels a lot of our 'old' feelings coming back, along with new ones. She's been pretty surprised by my 180 and it's been making her feel uneasy but she doesn't feel she can restrict me in any way right now. She likes the independent streak I've been on, but finds herself jealous of my easy friendships and plans that seem to happen spontaneously. I told her that those are the things I hope for her that comes out of IC, that she's able to learn boundaries and how to form those great friendships that are around for years. She also said she feels like she's watching me change into a different person, which scares her a bit but she also finds it intriguing. I don't really know what to make of that.

I feel more settled with the information she shared today, and I feel a bit better about where she stands. Now I just have to wait and see if her actions are following her words. I'm not going to say anything to/contact the OW at this time. 

For now I'm going to keep doing what I've been doing - spending time with the WW on dates and doing new things - but also going out with friends and being independent and keeping up the new exercise routine. I still want to see things work out..but I can't see dropping my guard anytime soon, either. I just need to keep the balancing act there right, somehow.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

freckleface said:


> She also said she realizes that sort of lifestyle would probably be fun for about 6 months and then she would be back to wanting what we had again.


That's a great show of maturing, realizing this. Immaturity means doing what feels good whether it's good for you or not. Maturity means acknowledging the loss and choosing the smart path.


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