# Handling a Defensive Wife



## dreamingofthepast (Feb 17, 2021)

After a row with my wife this morning I am kind of at my wits' end and need some advice - or at least space to rant and let off steam.

My wife and I have been married for 13 years, and have a 4 year old daughter. Until my daughter was born we had a great relationship. Afterwards things changed rapidly and suddenly I became a gigantic pain in the backside to her overnight. Common story, I know - and I wouldn't change things for the world anyway. My daughter is great, and my wife is all things considered a very good mother to her. But she is driving me crazy.

She nags me relentlessly. Literally every little thing. From the moment I wake up, the first thought in my mind is, "What's it going to be this morning?" We're not talking about things that I do in a half-arsed way or agreed tasks that I haven't done. In those cases nagging would be fair enough. We're talking almost deliberate attempts by her to search for something I have or haven't done so she can correct me. This morning, for example, my mistake was that I washed the lid of a flask that had been put on the counter next to the sink along with the other dishes. That's it. "Why did you wash this? I didn't use it. It didn't need washing." I mean, seriously? This is what I get - 10 times, 20 times a day. Being picked up for the most trivial and inoffensive things imaginable. 

I am a successful professional. I earn about three times the national average salary. I get asked to go on TV to talk about my area of expertise. I manage teams of people at work. On top of that, I go out of my way to work a 40 hour week so I have time at home. But the moment I get in the door I get transformed into a hen-pecked servant. Total lack of respect and constant undermining of confidence. "Why did you put the spoon in the fork compartment of the drawer?" "Make sure you put that cup back in the right place." "Don't put that there." "Don't forget to do X, Y, Z and also A, B, and C." (And then she'll get angry with me for not doing D or E.) 

The thing that really galls me, though, is the minute I push back, she_ immediately_ goes for the nuclear option. "Maybe you should get married to somebody else then!" is one of her favourites. "So what, you're saying I shouldn't ever talk to you??" is the other. There's just a complete lack of willingness to be remotely reasonable. She's so unbelievably defensive. I can't go on in this way - I feel like it is going to drive me to depression. Divorce is not an option for me: I want to make this work; underneath it all, I love her, and there is no way my daughter is going to grow up without me in the home. Help!


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"Wife, I love you and want to continue loving you; so, please stop treating me like a 4 year old". Your wife is in full-on mommy mode. If you have a dog, she probably mommy-nags it, too. Your daughter is most likely really looking forward to kindergarten.


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## dreamingofthepast (Feb 17, 2021)

Blondilocks said:


> "Wife, I love you and want to continue loving you; so, please stop treating me like a 4 year old". Your wife is in full-on mommy mode. If you have a dog, she probably mommy-nags it, too. Your daughter is most likely really looking forward to kindergarten.


Ha! Well, she already goes - I get the impression we start earlier with that here in the UK. She goes three days a week and loves it. Part of me thinks that it's almost as though the mothering is getting displaced onto me rather than my daughter, because she doesn't nag the little one anything like as much as me.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I honestly think that you have to sit her down and tell her how deeply unhappy and desperate you are feeling. That its making you feel depressed and that you feel you just want to give up. Then please get some long term marriage counselling together.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

dreamingofthepast said:


> Ha! Well, she already goes - I get the impression we start earlier with that here in the UK. She goes three days a week and loves it. Part of me thinks that it's almost as though the mothering is getting displaced onto me rather than my daughter, because she doesn't nag the little one anything like as much as me.


She cant be going right now surely because all schools and nursery schools have been closed for most of the last year.


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## dreamingofthepast (Feb 17, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> She cant be going right now surely because all schools and nursery schools have been closed for most of the last year.


Thanks for the advice. No, nurseries are open - I think school nurseries are shut at the moment but she goes to a private provider. It is a godsend, really.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Can you find something for her to do that will give her a feeling of importance? She's nagging on petty crap because that's all she's got.


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## marko polo (Jan 26, 2021)

" _Divorce is not an option for me: I want to make this work; underneath it all, I love her, and there is no way my daughter is going to grow up without me in the home. Help! _"

It may not be an option for you but have you considered it is one for her. That what she is doing is deliberate.

"_My wife and I have been married for 13 years, and have a 4 year old daughter. Until my daughter was born we had a great relationship. Afterwards things changed rapidly and suddenly I became a gigantic pain in the backside to her overnight. _"

Take what I say with a grain of salt as I am a pessimist. It would seem she has gotten what she wanted from you (a child) and now your usefulness is at an end.

I would suggest you ask if she would go with you to a counsellor/therapist to see if they can help. What I expect you will get with this suggestion is more defensive behavior and anger.

A successful marriage need both partners working together. One partner can carry the marriage only so far.

Would suggest you go to a lawyer and have papers drawn up, *not filed*. Either present the papers to her the next time she says "Maybe you should get married to somebody else then!" or leave them where she can discover them on her own. Which ever way confrontation comes about ask her frankly if divorce is what she wants. If you are still met with anger and defensiveness I would suggest you file the papers and have her served. You can still halt the proceedings if she backs down and is willing to attend therapy or at the very least communicate and work with you.

Regardless of what you choose to do you must take firm action of some kind. This situation will worsen if you remain passive.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

She may be triggered by memories of her parents complaining that she's not good enough. When this happens in the evening when you have time to slow everything down, let her know that her non specific criticism of you is troubling and this needs to worked out. Did you two have a complicated courtship involving a third party? Maybe memories of that trigger her.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I assume if you stop helping around the house then she nags that you’re not helping. Ugh...

Have you sat down with her and talked about this?


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

How’s your marriage otherwise? Sex life, affection level, date nights, etc? 

with you helping with kid and household chores, and your kid already going to school a few days a week , she can’t be feeling overwhelmed.

When I hear similar threads, I think of a wife that is purposely trying to push a husband away so she doesn’t have to have intimacy with him and to justify In her head that she’s justified in extracurricular activities. Seen it way to many times on this and similar boards.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

What else is going on with her? Is there any external stress for her? Problems at work, friends or family? My husband can get like this when he’s had outside pressures, I just joke back who upset you today and he stops really quickly and two or three days later he vents about something, and I immediately can backtrack it to one of his nagging/criticising episodes. 

It sounds like she’s feeling powerless somewhere or trying to regain some sort of control? And unfortunately you’re the punching bag. Or it’s possible that she’s got some resentment towards you but is skirting around the issue maybe by finding different ways to show her anger.

Maybe give her a lighthearted response and a good honest, what the hell is going on with you! Said in a gentle tone, so she doesn’t blow up even more.

how are you reacting anyway to all of this nagging? Arguing back? Staying silent? Sighing?

There’s definitely something going on with her, hope it settles soon, it can’t be easy.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, it sounds like your wife resents you for something. Any clue as to what that might be?

Otherwise, yes, I'd agree that she's in full mommy-mode. It might be time to insist on some marriage counseling. 

You need to - calmly and clearly - let her know that the harsh tones, defensiveness, continual criticisms and inability to really discuss issues that are plaguing your marriage are really jeopardizing your relationship. It might be helpful to frame your concerns in "the problem vs. us" rather than a "you vs. her" terms, so that the problems in the marriage are considered things for you two, together as a team, to work on - instead of you just telling her she needs fixing.


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## EveningThoughts (Jul 12, 2018)

So we know the starting point of your wife's change in behaviour.
Was the only change for your wife, that of having a child or did her work life change also?
Is she currently staying at home, but used to work? Or works part time now instead of full time?
I'm just wondering if her world has changed more than she can adapt to for her, and she feels out of control, or overwhelmed.
Were there any signs of post natal depression?
Would you class your wife as a confident person and parent?


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

“Divorce is not an option for me”

Then your situation will never improve. I’m not advocating divorce, nor should it be taken lightly. But if it’s not a real option for you, then have no power in the relationship. And your wife knows this too, so she has all the power and can nag you relentlessly and treat you poorly and there’s nothing you can do about it, because divorce is not an option.

You get what you tolerate. Stop tolerating this behavior. Do it pleasantly with a smile. If she starts nagging you about something unreasonable, give her a jokingly sarcastic response and a pat on the butt or give her a kiss and walk away. If she persists, do it again. If she continues, tell her the subject is closed and you’re not arguing about this. If she escalates, leave and go out for a while. If she’s being a terror, take your daughter out for some ice cream and tell your wife she’s not invited because of the way she’s acting. Once her behavior improves, she gets more time and attention from you again.

She will act as badly as you let her, it’s up to you to not allow it. When she’s ready to discuss things rationally, have a conversation with her and be clear that you will not tolerate this incessant nagging and poor behavior. You need to be strong and emotionally non-reactive. You love her and want to be there to support her, but she won’t get your time and attention if she’s being an insufferable nag. (Note: this is all predicated on the assumption that you’re not a useless lump and that the nagging is largely unjustified).

if she is able to behave however she wants without any fear of losing you - she won’t respect you, and your situation will likely get much worse over time.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

The main problem is communication. You're not communicating you're both reacting to each other. You react to her nagging she reacts to your complaint with drama. The "maybe you should marry someone else" is a way to end the conversation as it stresses her out more to talk about the problem. The good thing is she responds this way because she knows it's a problem, she knows she's taking her stress out on you but she doesn't want another thing to have to be thinking about. 

Pretty much every mom I know goes through this in some way. My wife did. You have to force the communication, you have to not let her stop the discussion with the drama. She says "Maybe you should marry someone else" you say "What are you suggesting? Do you want a divorce? That doesn't seem like an optimal solution to the problem." She needs to learn to accept less than perfect at all times. 

Having a kid is hard and a lot of moms seem to expect perfection. They see mommy blogs and friends posting on social media making it look like it's all baking cookies and blowing bubbles in a perfectly cleaned and organized house. The reality is it's a complete crap show. 

The conversation needs to be framed in a two way give and take. What you need from her and what she needs from you. How can you most efficiently help her feel less overwhelmed so she stops tossing her stress in your lap all day. Be direct and to the point, think clearly ahead of time. It might take regular communications to calibrate the dynamic so you find balance. You will probably have to live with her behavior to some degree for a while, the goal is to get things to a point where it is a minor annoyance and not making you nuts. 

Set up a formal conversation, tell her around dinner time, later tonight after daughter is in bed we need to have a serious talk. Then sit down and lead the conversation be very clear in what is bothering you give examples, have written notes for yourself if you need to. Maybe the goal is her learning to ignore the small stuff like putting the fork in the spoon slot and only voicing complaints about stuff that matters. The goal for this period of time is finding balance you can both live with. 

Another thing you need to train your brain on is looking objectively at things. When she is nagging are some of the things legitimate complaints. Even if they're petty and nit picky are they legit complaints. I don't say that to suggest she is right to constantly complain, but it might help you be less annoyed to be able to think, OK thats a silly petty thing to complain about but she's not wrong. Then after the talk and setting of agreed upon ground rules you can say "ok yes I put the fork in the spoon slot but we agreed we're not going to point out every little mistake." 

It's going to take work from both of you, but if you can get to a place of much more positive communication and lass negative you'll both be happier. And developing better communication under stress will pay dividends for a long long time.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

dreamingofthepast said:


> The thing that really galls me, though, is the minute I push back, she_ immediately_ goes for the nuclear option. "Maybe you should get married to somebody else then!" is one of her favourites. "So what, you're saying I shouldn't ever talk to you??" i
> 
> . Divorce is not an option for me:


This is all borderline mental/emotional abuse.

You are simply going to have to grow a spine and some balls and stand up for yourself and quit being a *****. 

She is basically a being a schoolyard bully and you are taking it. When you let bullies push you around, you given them permission to mistreat you and so it continues and almost always escalated.

If she knows she won’t suffer any consequences for her treatment of you, there is no reason for her not to stop.

If she knows you won’t divorce her, that basically gives her license to mistreat you. 

And as you allow her to mistreat you, she loses even more respect for you and feels further emboldened to continue and escalate.

You can not ‘nice’ your way out of being bullied. You can not rationalize a bully or use logical dialogue to make them stop.

You either called them out and meet them behind the school and have a throw down.

Or you get away from them.

There is no substitute for not growing a spine and balls. 

You’re going to have to stop being a wuss and stop being a doormat that she wipes her muddy shoes on.

You will likely need to change your stance and attitude on divorce. 

You either man-up and stand up for yourself or resign yourself to being her whipping boy. 

That choice is yours.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> The main problem is communication. You're not communicating you're both reacting to each other. You react to her nagging she reacts to your complaint with drama. The "maybe you should marry someone else" is a way to end the conversation as it stresses her out more to talk about the problem. The good thing is she responds this way because she knows it's a problem, she knows she's taking her stress out on you but she doesn't want another thing to have to be thinking about.
> 
> Pretty much every mom I know goes through this in some way. My wife did. You have to force the communication, you have to not let her stop the discussion with the drama. She says "Maybe you should marry someone else" you say "What are you suggesting? Do you want a divorce? That doesn't seem like an optimal solution to the problem." She needs to learn to accept less than perfect at all times.
> 
> ...


I disagree.

This is not a communication issue. They communicate just fine.

This is a behavior and a respect issue. 

She is a ***** and a bully that has no respect for him because he has allowed her to mistreat him. 

This isn’t something that ‘talk’ will resolve.

It’s not that she doesn’t know that she is is mistreating and distracting him and it isnt that he doesn’t know why She is acting this way. 

It’s that she is abusive and he is codependent and an enabler.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Is it you that gets defensive when she says things to you? 
When she says why did you wash that lid? The obvious answer is, oh well I thought it was dirty because it was by the other dirty dishes. “Well I didn’t use it, it’s clean”. Well next time put it where it belongs if it’s clean. 

I don’t see anything wrong with that interaction. But if you think her asking why you cleaned something is such a big deal... you might be the one getting defensive.


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## cc48kel (Apr 5, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> Can you find something for her to do that will give her a feeling of importance? She's nagging on petty crap because that's all she's got.


Yes!!! I think this is exactly it. She needs to do something for her.. A part-time job, volunteering, even something at your daughter's school.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Your getting into a parent child relationship. You need to stop it. When she says something that you perceive as nagging, don’t fight back or argue back like a little child. Take a breath, and talk to her calmly. 

A lot of times women think they are just making a statement and men take it as a complaint or a nag. 
There is nothing wrong with just stoping her and being like hey... is everything ok you seem really negative today. Don’t bite the bait by arguing with her or focusing on her words, but instead focus on her emotion behind what she is saying and throw that in her face. Wow you seem really mad at me, is everything ok? Because maybe she is unaware of her tone and how it is making you feel, and she should know.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

And, but you may have tried this, because if so and no changes after 99 times.....

But after you've told her once, then have you tried ignoring her when she spouts the ridiculous?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

My wife wasn’t this extreme but she also became a completely different person when the kids came and she did not treat me with even common courtesy and decency that she would treat a stranger on the street.

I too tried to jump through hoops and chase my tail to try to please her but even my breathing wasn’t right.

When I finally had enough and pushed back, she went to DEFCON 3 and popped a cog.

She gave me the “Divorce is not an option” line and I told her she better find an marriage counselor and better pull her head out of her arse and participate and change her tune because there was no reason I had to live like that and for me divorce IS an option.

We did go to MC and I truly believe that she sincerely thought the MC would get on me to do better and be a better mother and to try to appease her better.

She was truly shocked that the MC told her I had one foot out the door and had a realistic divorce plan in place and that if she didn’t think I was accommodating her enough now, then she really needed to sit down and think about what her life would be like as a single mother because that was the path she was on. 

SHE WAS LIVID. She was very angry and truly shocked that she had any accountability at all. 

She came close to refusing to continue MC and I just calmly said either we work things out and you treat me decently to where I actually ‘want’ to be with you - or we work out a coparenting agreement and we go our separate ways.

I also told her that if she had such low regard for me and such resentment and disdain for me as evidenced how she treated me, then obviously divorce would be in her best interests as well so there is no reason not to pursue that option.

She was mad that she didn’t get her way, but she did calm down and came to the negotiation table and worked out some nuts and bolts things that we each needed to be good with each other.

My bottom line is she had to at least treat me with the respect and common courtesy that she would a neighbor or a stranger on the street. 

If she didn’t have that in her, then there was no point being under the same roof.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> Is it you that gets defensive when she says things to you?
> When she says why did you wash that lid? The obvious answer is, oh well I thought it was dirty because it was by the other dirty dishes. “Well I didn’t use it, it’s clean”. Well next time put it where it belongs if it’s clean.
> 
> I don’t see anything wrong with that interaction. But if you think her asking why you cleaned something is such a big deal... you might be the one getting defensive.


That’s still appeasing a bully and trying to use logic on someone that isn’t logical.

That works on normal decent people that are sincere in wanting to make a relationship work. - it doesn’t work on an abuser.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

So I have been told that I am a nag. Which is funny because I don’t think I am at all. So there is clearly a discrepancy between what one considers nagging. 

I 100% don’t want to be a nag, and I can guarantee your wife doesn’t either. So In the past I have asked my partners to tell me when I am nagging, because I was completely unaware of it, and I wanted to understand and be better. You should have this conversation with your wife.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I disagree.
> 
> This is not a communication issue. They communicate just fine.
> 
> ...


I would agree with you if I hadn't seen this exact dynamic a million times before with newer parents. I could probably write a script for their daily interactions and be 85% accurate. Many new mothers go through this kind of possessed stage for a few years. Thats why he reports a sudden abrupt change when the kid came along. Happened with my wife even and we had a full time nanny. It's a matter of knowing how to navigate it and putting a stop to it in a way that is generally helpful. Calling a wife nagging abusive is being a little fragile and melodramatic IMO. But if the OP doesn't put a stop to it it will only get worse.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

dreamingofthepast said:


> Ha! Well, she already goes - I get the impression we start earlier with that here in the UK. She goes three days a week and loves it. Part of me thinks that it's almost as though the mothering is getting displaced onto me rather than my daughter, because she doesn't nag the little one anything like as much as me.


That often happens because they start to see you more as a child if they're spending time cleaning up after you or cooking for you or whatever it is when they are already really stretched thin with the child. Since you make so much money why on Earth don't you just hire her a housekeeper or nanny to take the drudgery off of her? she obviously doesn't think you're doing your part or that you're creating problems by the way you do things. So why don't you just hire her a professional?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> So I have been told that I am a nag. Which is funny because I don’t think I am at all. So there is clearly a discrepancy between what one considers nagging.
> 
> I 100% don’t want to be a nag, and I can guarantee your wife doesn’t either. So In the past I have asked my partners to tell me when I am nagging, because I was completely unaware of it, and I wanted to understand and be better. You should have this conversation with your wife.


Someone that gets on someone for washing a plate and then dares him to divorce her WANTS to be a nag and a bully.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> . Calling a wife nagging abusive is being a little fragile and melodramatic IMO.


The devil is in the details.

Nagging is bugging someone to do something you’ve asked for the 15th time and still still haven’t done it.

Having a row (OP’s word) for washing something and then daring them (threatening him is probably more accurate) with divorce is not fragile and melodramatic on my part.

If abusive is too strong of a word for you, then I see that as bullying and coercive. 

Yes, having children fundamentally changes the dynamics of a relationship forever.

But motherhood does not give wives license to to be mean, nasty and disrespectful to their husbands not does it obligated husbands to allow themselves to be treated badly. 

If people want to remain in marriages and provide a two parent home for their children, then BOTH people need to be on their good behavior and work together and treat each other with dignity and honor - not become a tryrant who blows up when someone washes a dish that wasn’t dirty and then threatens to divorce them over it.

The definition of abuse is intentionally inflicting discomfort and distress on someone for your own purposes. 

If blowing up at someone and threatening to divorce them because they washed a dish on the counter isn’t abusive, then I’d like to know what is.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Someone that gets on someone for washing a plate and then dares him to divorce her WANTS to be a nag and a bully.


She asked him why he washed the lid. I don’t understand why that’s a big deal.

There are some sensitive men out there.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> The devil is in the details.
> 
> Nagging is bugging someone to do something you’ve asked for the 15th time and still still haven’t done it.
> 
> ...


We can’t tell if she blows up and threaten divorce. You need to note that he left out what HIS responses are to her when she says these things.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

The behavior is all wrong, but as you and I have seen first hand is pretty typical, almost predictable. It's like a state or derangement that happens. I attribute it to new moms being extremely insecure with many things. Thats where the "Oh why don't you go marry someone else" comes from, insecurity, not evil. 

I had a similar experience to you with our brief stint with marriage counseling. I have never threatened divorce, but when we were going through the kids adjustment we went and after about 30 minutes of us describing our issues the MC straight up told my wife if she continues like this don't be surprised if you end up divorced. The MC helped us establish a plan and I'm am very lucky, my wife loves having a plan to follow. Around the same time we also got a new nanny who was our date night Nazi, she would put our date nights on our calendars every week on nights she was available to stay late and weekly date nights were on our plan. So for us the stars all aligned and my wife was really on board with getting through it. I think for us it was positive as we both learned to see the others perspective better and are more open about issues large or small now so nothing festers and resentment has no room to develop. 

My wife still has the common problem of not looking behind her before she sits on the toilet so she still nags me about putting the toilet seat down, but I have drawn my line in the sand, look behind you woman. One time she praised me because she heard me putting the seat down after peeing, but then my son went in there and peed all over the seat and then she sat in his pee. She was screaming about sitting in pee, I told her hey you didn't have to put the seat down, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Point to the men in the toilet seat battle. LOL


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> She asked him why he washed the lid. I don’t understand why that’s a big deal.
> 
> There are some sensitive men out there.


I can’t imagine asking anyone why they washed anything...it’s a control issue.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

happyhusband0005 said:


> The behavior is all wrong, but as you and I have seen first hand is pretty typical, almost predictable. It's like a state or derangement that happens. I attribute it to new moms being extremely insecure with many things. Thats where the "Oh why don't you go marry someone else" comes from, insecurity, not evil.
> 
> I had a similar experience to you with our brief stint with marriage counseling. I have never threatened divorce, but when we were going through the kids adjustment we went and after about 30 minutes of us describing our issues the MC straight up told my wife if she continues like this don't be surprised if you end up divorced. The MC helped us establish a plan and I'm am very lucky, my wife loves having a plan to follow. Around the same time we also got a new nanny who was our date night Nazi, she would put our date nights on our calendars every week on nights she was available to stay late and weekly date nights were on our plan. So for us the stars all aligned and my wife was really on board with getting through it. I think for us it was positive as we both learned to see the others perspective better and are more open about issues large or small now so nothing festers and resentment has no room to develop.
> 
> My wife still has the common problem of not looking behind her before she sits on the toilet so she still nags me about putting the toilet seat down, but I have drawn my line in the sand, look behind you woman. One time she praised me because she heard me putting the seat down after peeing, but then my son went in there and peed all over the seat and then she sat in his pee. She was screaming about sitting in pee, I told her hey you didn't have to put the seat down, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Point to the men in the toilet seat battle. LOL


Can't se see the position of thr toilet seat as she approaches the toilet. Or does she like to back up?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> I can’t imagine asking anyone why they washed anything...it’s a control issue.


Exactly. He washed it because he felt it was dirty. Obviously. The question didn’t need to be asked.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

As to the toilet seat issue — that’s what a lid is for. Keep it down. Problem solved.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

NextTimeAround said:


> Can't se see the position of thr toilet seat as she approaches the toilet. Or does she like to back up?


The question you have asked is very philosophical in nature and is as easily answered as the questions surrounding the general nature of the universe and what happens inside a black hole. Why are elephants spooked by mice? There are lots of theories and hypothesis regarding these questions but alas the answers allude humanity.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> She asked him why he washed the lid. I don’t understand why that’s a big deal.
> 
> There are some sensitive men out there.


We kind of have to take the OPs for their word to a certain degree. 

He said they had a “row” over it and that this happens multiple times a day to where he is walking on eggshells wondering what will set her off today and and that he is approaching a depression about it. 

If the genders were reversed, people would be telling her to contact abuse hotlines and to get away now. 

Would people be telling her she was sensitive if this were a woman in her shoes?

Even my own advise to man-up and quit being a ***** is dismissive since he is a man. 

But my point is, without hearing her side of it and not seeing first hand through hidden cameras, we kind of have to take his word for the severity.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> We kind of have to take the OPs for their word to a certain degree.
> 
> He said they had a “row” over it and that this happens multiple times a day to where he is walking on eggshells wondering what will set her off today and and that he is approaching a depression about it.
> 
> ...


If they had a row over it, then HE must of responded defensively. I mean, if someone asked me that question I would simply say...I washed it because I thought it was dirty seeing as it was by the other dirty dishes. 
I don’t understand why that’s so hard.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

All we hear is his side. He constantly leaves out how he is responding to her “nags”. I can only assume he is the one who gets mad and defensive which will cause a simple question or request to become a confrontation.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> We kind of have to take the OPs for their word to a certain degree.
> 
> He said they had a “row” over it and that this happens multiple times a day to where he is walking on eggshells wondering what will set her off today and and that he is approaching a depression about it.
> 
> ...


Oh my God the other day my husband asked me why I was washing a lid!?!? Can you believe that?? He also reminded me to pick up things from the grocery store!!! What a jerk!

# said no wife ever.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

This is routine stuff for a marriage counsellor. We see this literally every day. Find a counsellor who specialises in relationship work (*not* a counsellor who does "everything" including relationships).


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Openminded said:


> As to the toilet seat issue — that’s what a lid is for. Keep it down. Problem solved.


So you're one of those cake eaters, you think a man is there to serve and do all the work. If I have to lift the seat to avoid peeing on it so you don't sit in pee why should I also have to put it back down? I firmly believe in a fairly divided and equal division of household labor. 

Really pressure is off me the real suffering party in our house currently is my daughter who is now sharing a bathroom with her 14YO older brother. She is constantly asking me when our new house will be done so she can get back to having her own bathroom. She'll be OK it's building character. 

I probably do put the seat back down most of the time but my wife has sat on the bowl because she didn't look a few times, I like to joke about it. One Christmas I bought her one of this gizmos they sell at camping stores that are like a jock strap funnel so women can pee standing up. I gave her a card and wrote a long note about how much I appreciate her and care about her happiness blah blah blah, then at the end said now you don't have to worry about the toilet seat. My father in law almost passed out he was laughing so hard. Childish but we laughed.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Torninhalf said:


> I can’t imagine asking anyone why they washed anything...it’s a control issue.


Take that one step further - if someone is going to make an issue and have a “row” over washing a lid,,, is it really much of a leap to assume they are *****ing about everything else?

If you’re going to pop a cog over washing a clean lid, you’re probably popping a lot of cogs throughout the day.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Really pressure is off me the real suffering party in our house currently is my daughter who is now sharing a bathroom with her 14YO older brother. She is constantly asking me when our new house will be done so she can get back to having her own bathroom. She'll be OK it's building character.


Hmm...it's interesting to me that you aren't also wanting to build character in your son with this issue...


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Take that one step further - if someone is going to make an issue and have a “row” over washing a lid,,, is it really much of a leap to assume they are b!tch!ng about everything else?
> 
> If you’re going to pop a cog over washing a clean lid, you’re probably popping a lot of cogs throughout the day.


I’m just grateful when someone else washes anything 😂🤷🏼‍♀️


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> If I have to lift the seat to avoid peeing on it so you don't sit in pee why should I also have to put it back down?


Because it's YOUR pee that is what causes a mess. Because the seat is supposed to stay down so someone doesn't fall into it in the middle of the night! Is that what you want, your wife or kid to fall into the toilet because you neglected to put the seat back down? That's really no better than her sitting right down on your pee in the event you just decided not to lift the lid at all, is it?

I'm beginning to get a whole new perspective on why you are "Happyhusband0005."


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> If they had a row over it, then HE must of responded defensively. I mean, if someone asked me that question I would simply say...I washed it because I thought it was dirty seeing as it was by the other dirty dishes.
> I don’t understand why that’s so hard.


Right, I get that. But you are taking this from the reasonable person’s perspective. 

The washed lid is just this morning’s example.

But by the OP’s account this has been going on 10-20 times a day, every day for 4 years.

I did the math, using the 10 times/day number this has happened 14,600 times.

He probably did make a calm, rational appeal 8,261 times, but where has that gotten him. 

Again, if a wife is being yelled at and put down and threatened and picked on,,,, are you going to point fingers and say that since she is being defensive that it is her fault?

Are you going to tell her to quit complaining and take her abuse like a good little girl?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Take that one step further - if someone is going to make an issue and have a “row” over washing a lid,,, is it really much of a leap to assume they are *****ing about everything else?
> 
> If you’re going to pop a cog over washing a clean lid, you’re probably popping a lot of cogs throughout the day.


What we have here are two people popping cogs, not one.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> If they had a row over it, then HE must of responded defensively.


This is like telling an abused wife that the reason her abusive partner hit her twice is because she blocked the first blow. 

If she hadn’t gotten defensive and blocked it, he would have only needed to swing at her once.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> What we have here are two people popping cogs, not one.


That probably is true. but what’s more reasonable, popping a cog after getting btch’d at day in day out for years - or popping a cog because someone washed a lid?


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> This is like telling an abused wife that the reason her abusive partner hit her twice is because she blocked the first blow.
> 
> If she hadn’t gotten defensive and blocked it, he would have only needed to swing at her once.





oldshirt said:


> Right, I get that. But you are taking this from the reasonable person’s perspective.
> 
> The washed lid is just this morning’s example.
> 
> ...


If I reverse the gender and put myself in OPs point of view... 

If my husband asked me why I’m washing a lid, or why I put the forks in with the spoons I would never think to myself wow what a nag. 

Nagging is asking someone to do something over and over again. It’s pretty sexist to just jump to calling her a nag. Maybe she is nit picking, I agree with nit picking.

Someone asking you why you washed the lid should not cause an emotional reaction like jt does in him. Sorry, it’s not that serious, you just answer the question .


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> This is like telling an abused wife that the reason her abusive partner hit her twice is because she blocked the first blow.
> 
> If she hadn’t gotten defensive and blocked it, he would have only needed to swing at her once.


Wow that’s offensive.

So her telling him to put the spoons with the spoons is equivalent to a man hitting a women?!? Your joking right?


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> If I reverse the gender and put myself in OPs point of view...
> 
> If my husband asked me why I’m washing a lid, or why I put the forks in with the spoons I would never think to myself wow what a nag.
> 
> ...


I get what you are saying but why would anyone care why anyone else was washing anything?


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Take that one step further - if someone is going to make an issue and have a “row” over washing a lid,,, is it really much of a leap to assume they are b!tch!ng about everything else?
> 
> If you’re going to pop a cog over washing a clean lid, you’re probably popping a lot of cogs throughout the day.


I have to ask you, Why does a simple question become a fight??


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

happyhusband0005 said:


> So you're one of those cake eaters, you think a man is there to serve and do all the work. If I have to lift the seat to avoid peeing on it so you don't sit in pee why should I also have to put it back down? I firmly believe in a fairly divided and equal division of household labor.
> 
> Really pressure is off me the real suffering party in our house currently is my daughter who is now sharing a bathroom with her 14YO older brother. She is constantly asking me when our new house will be done so she can get back to having her own bathroom. She'll be OK it's building character.
> 
> I probably do put the seat back down most of the time but my wife has sat on the bowl because she didn't look a few times, I like to joke about it. One Christmas I bought her one of this gizmos they sell at camping stores that are like a jock strap funnel so women can pee standing up. I gave her a card and wrote a long note about how much I appreciate her and care about her happiness blah blah blah, then at the end said now you don't have to worry about the toilet seat. My father in law almost passed out he was laughing so hard. Childish but we laughed.


I’m talking about the lid — not the seat. If everyone, including your wife, puts the lid down (which is the purpose of it) then there’s no issue about the seat.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Torninhalf said:


> I get what you are saying but why would anyone care why anyone else was washing anything?


She is just asking a question.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> If I reverse the gender and put myself in OPs point of view...
> 
> If my husband asked me why I’m washing a lid, or why I put the forks in with the spoons I would never think to myself wow what a nag.
> 
> ...


And maybe he did the first 14,599 times. 

This morning was the 14,600th.

Where would you have drawn the line?

At what number is it reasonable for him to be upset about it?

At what point would you tell a woman it is ok to not just humbly apologize and answer the questions and do what she is told and to try harder to appease him and just do what he wants?

At what point is it ok for people to stand up for themselves and not be treated badly.

Give me a number @Girl_power 

Give me an exact number of times that a person has to be yelled at and threatened and sneered at and treated disrespectfully before they can say enough? 

Obviously 14,600 isn’t enough, so at what point can they stand up for themselves? 15,000? 16500? 20,000? When??? 

Give the OP some guidance and advise here. Tell him how many more times he has to endure this before he can say anything.

Give him a number to work with. Tell him he needs to be chewed out 672 more times before he can do anything.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Openminded said:


> I’m talking about the lid — not the seat. If everyone, including your wife, puts the lid down (which is the purpose of it) then there’s no issue about the seat.


Exactly! The lid is suppose to be down before the toilet is flushed so particles don’t come out of the bowl. It isn’t like we are splitting the atom here. 😂


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> Exactly! The lid is suppose to be down before the toilet is flushed so particles don’t come out of the bowl. It isn’t like we are splitting the atom here. 😂


👍


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I told him he needs to man up and quit being a pu$$y and stand up for himself but if I’m missing something and he needs to be kicked in the teeth and treated like dirt for a number of more times, then please shed some light on how many more times he needs to get chewed out for washing a lid before he can do anything about it.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> And maybe he did the first 14,599 times.
> 
> This morning was the 14,600th.
> 
> ...


treated badly??

She asks a question and then you answer it. If she has a negative tone, ask her if everything is all right. It’s not that big of a deal. 

It becomes a big deal when you make a mountain out of a mole hill. It becomes a big deal when you attack your wife, or defend yourself after your wife asks you a simple question.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I told him he needs to man up and quit being a pu$$y and stand up for himself but if I’m missing something and he needs to be kicked in the teeth and treated like dirt for a number of more times, then please shed some light on how many more times he needs to get chewed out for washing a lid before he can do anything about it.


Stand up for himself? They aren’t enemies. That’s his wife. If she is negative or moody he should ask her nicely is everything is ok. It’s a simple conversation... you seem angry with me is everything ok? 

Attacking back and standing up for yourself just causes fights. Get on the same page, and fight the problem together. The problem shouldn’t be each other.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> treated badly??
> 
> She asks a question and then you answer it. If she has a negative tone, ask her if everything is all right. It’s not that big of a deal.
> 
> It becomes a big deal when you make a mountain out of a mole hill. It becomes a big deal when you attack your wife, or defend yourself after your wife asks you a simple question.


Ok then I have to take back my advice to him to stand up for himself.

OP I was wrong.

You need to shut your mouth and do what she says and try harder. 

You don’t deserve to be treated with dignity and respect in your own home.

If I ever hear of you washing clean lids again, I’m coming over there and teaching you a lesson myself. 

You sucknit up and live with being treated like dirt because that’s what you were put on earth to do.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Asking questions = being treated like dirt
Asking questions = physical abuse


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> That probably is true. but what’s more reasonable, popping a cog after getting btch’d at day in day out for years - or popping a cog because someone washed a lid?


Depends why she's btching. Usually there's a good reason. Again, he has money and could just hire her some household help. No excuse to let things like this get in the way if you have enough money to make them go away.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> Asking questions = being treated like dirt
> Asking questions = physical abuse


You’re right, I am wrong.

People simply need to stop expecting to be treated like they matter and stop expecting people to treat them with dignity and respect.

No one should stand up for themself, that only causes more conflict and bad feelings.

If people would just keep their mouth shut and do what they’re told and try harder to appease their partner all will be fine.

He needs to do what she says and apologize when he doesn’t stack the cups right.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Because it's YOUR pee that is what causes a mess. Because the seat is supposed to stay down so someone doesn't fall into it in the middle of the night! Is that what you want, your wife or kid to fall into the toilet because you neglected to put the seat back down? That's really no better than her sitting right down on your pee in the event you just decided not to lift the lid at all, is it?
> 
> I'm beginning to get a whole new perspective on why you are "Happyhusband0005."


If they fall in they fall in YOLO BABY.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> You’re right, I am wrong.
> 
> People simply need to stop expecting to be treated like they matter and stop expecting people to treat them with dignity and respect.
> 
> ...


Sometimes a rational conversation is just not going to happen. I think you’re running into some tribal presuppositions that you aren’t going to break through. Sometimes someone’s handle can give you some clues about their mindset.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> You’re right, I am wrong.
> 
> People simply need to stop expecting to be treated like they matter and stop expecting people to treat them with dignity and respect.
> 
> ...


Stop being passive aggressive. 

I’m not saying her behavior is ok, I understand how he can feel annoyed from her nit picking. But standing up to her is not the answer, because it’s making her the enemy, and your furthering the parent child relationship. 

That’s his wife. Not his enemy, not his parent, not his high school bully. They are equals. So to feel attacked means that he is making her the problem, the enemy, the bully. He is making himself the victim that needs to come out swinging. That’s not what you want to do. That’s just going to upset her more, and that’s why something simple becomes a fight.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Hmm...it's interesting to me that you aren't also wanting to build character in your son with this issue...


I am teaching my son be respectful and not pee on the seat, but also respect himself and not give in to this notion that he is supposed to both lift and lower the seat. We will never surrender, this is the hill we will die on.


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## Nailhead (Sep 21, 2020)

dreamingofthepast said:


> After a row with my wife this morning I am kind of at my wits' end and need some advice - or at least space to rant and let off steam.
> 
> My wife and I have been married for 13 years, and have a 4 year old daughter. Until my daughter was born we had a great relationship. Afterwards things changed rapidly and suddenly I became a gigantic pain in the backside to her overnight. Common story, I know - and I wouldn't change things for the world anyway. My daughter is great, and my wife is all things considered a very good mother to her. But she is driving me crazy.
> 
> ...


Well, sorry to hear this but....the it appears the home is her domain and she wants things done right. So do them right. My wife is the same way. It is her domain. I do what I can to clean, put away, and keep the place as she would. 

Look at it like this, you have a toolbox. Your toolbox has specific drawers for your screwdrivers. A specific drawer for you wrenches. One day your wife take a wrench from YOUR toolbox. When she is finished with it she returns the wrench to the screwdriver drawer like it is nothing. How do you feel about that? If you are like me, yeah no, the tool goes in the drawer you found it! Your wife is the same with her home and how she likes to run it. I respect that and do what she asks as she would have it done. I expect the same in my domain(garage. less to clean )


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

dreamingofthepast said:


> Ha! Well, she already goes - I get the impression we start earlier with that here in the UK. She goes three days a week and loves it. Part of me thinks that it's almost as though the mothering is getting displaced onto me rather than my daughter, because she doesn't nag the little one anything like as much as me.


My condolences.

Can you join your child those three days a week?

Seriously...

I have suffered this for, for, forever and a day.

On her aging.... 

Age, makes them, not mellow, age makes them over-ripe with anxiety, fretfulness, and forgetfulness.

Oh, and the ornery part only gets worse. 

Complaining about it makes you the cry-baby, man-up!

*C'mon man,* *why can't you just learn?

Just learn to do it right the first time!*

I have.....
No, good luck to offer.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Openminded said:


> I’m talking about the lid — not the seat. If everyone, including your wife, puts the lid down (which is the purpose of it) then there’s no issue about the seat.


No you're wrong the lid is there as a backstop so teenage boys don't pee all over the tank.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Nailhead said:


> Well, sorry to hear this but....the it appears *the home is her domain and she wants things done right. So do them right. * My wife is the same way. It is her domain. I do what I can to clean, put away, and keep the place as she would.
> 
> Look at it like this, you have a toolbox. Your toolbox has specific drawers for your screwdrivers. A specific drawer for you wrenches. One day your wife take a wrench from YOUR toolbox. When she is finished with it she returns the wrench to the screwdriver drawer like it is nothing. How do you feel about that? If you are like me, yeah no, the tool goes in the drawer you found it! Your wife is the same with her home and how she likes to run it. I respect that and do what she asks as she would have it done. I expect the same in my domain(garage. less to clean )


You traitor, you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Girl_power said:


> Stop being passive aggressive.
> 
> I’m not saying her behavior is ok, I understand how he can feel annoyed from her nit picking. But standing up to her is not the answer, because it’s making her the enemy, and your furthering the parent relationship.
> 
> That’s his wife. Not his enemy, not his parent, not his high school bully. They are equals. So to feel attacked means that he is making her the problem, the enemy, the bully. He is making himself the victim that needs to come out swinging. That’s not what you want to do. That’s just going to upset her more, and that’s why something simple becomes a fight.


you’re right that he needs to stop playing victim. That said, she is making herself the enemy. And he needs to deal with that through strength, not weakness. He does not need to supplicate to her moods, he needs to not tolerate bad behavior. Everyone gets cranky sometimes so that can be, and should be, blown off. But when that becomes a consistent problem, it’s not acceptable and needs to be dealt with. And it can be dealt with positively and good-naturedly, as per my post earlier in this thread.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

DudeInProgress said:


> you’re right that he needs to stop playing victim. That said, she is making herself the enemy. And he needs to deal with that through strength, not weakness. He does not need to supplicate to her moods, he needs to not tolerate bad behavior. Everyone gets cranky sometimes so that can be, and should be, blown off. But when that becomes a consistent problem, it’s not acceptable and needs to be dealt with. End it can be dealt with positively and good-naturedly, as per my post earlier in this thread.


And I think he should start by pointing out her moodiness ( nicely. By asking her if everything is alright). Because I know that sometimes I dont realize I am being moody, so I appreciate it when someone says... oh wow, is everything ok? You seem angry/crabby/upset. Then she knows she is coming off negatively. I usually say oh crap, no I’m sorry I don’t mean to be angry, or I’m sorry I’m just stressed about x,y,z sorry if I’m taking it out on you. Oh that’s ok, is there anything I can do to help? 

That’s a healthy interaction. 1. Noticing her negative mood and asking if she is ok makes her feel like you care. 2. Drawing her attention to the fact that her negative mood is rubbing off on you. 3. Taking responsibility for your negative tone/mood. 4. Being able to express how she feels without being attacked or judged. Being listened to by the one you love. 5. Making her feel understood, and asking if she needs help. 

This puts them on the same team. This shows her that he notices her moods and he cares. This makes her realize her negative mood is negatively affecting him.


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## Nailhead (Sep 21, 2020)

SunCMars said:


> You traitor, you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Hahaha... I can't tell you the time it took me to figure out exactly what my wife wanted when it came to handling the home. Some things she simply gave up on and does herself. Like the laundry. She says I'm a roller and not a folder. LOL. Anyway, I do things as she does them. Problem solved.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Nailhead said:


> Hahaha... I can't tell you the time it took me to figure out exactly what my wife wanted when it came to handling the home. Some things she simply gave up on and does herself. Like the laundry. She says I'm a roller and not a folder. LOL. Anyway, I do things as she does them. Problem solved.


My mom is so territorial over the kitchen. My dad doesn’t help ever and she prefers it that way. It’s her thing. We empty our dishes in the trash and put the dishes on the countertop and that’s it. She gets stressed and annoyed if we do it wrong so it’s all her. She prefers it that way and she never complains or asks for help. 

She says it’s so satisfying when she cleans the whole kitchen after dinner, and everything is the way she likes it.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

My dad is the same way about the garage.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> Stop being passive aggressive.
> 
> I’m not saying her behavior is ok, I understand how he can feel annoyed from her nit picking. But standing up to her is not the answer, because it’s making her the enemy, and your furthering the parent child relationship.
> 
> That’s his wife. Not his enemy, not his parent, not his high school bully. They are equals. So to feel attacked means that he is making her the problem, the enemy, the bully. He is making himself the victim that needs to come out swinging. That’s not what you want to do. That’s just going to upset her more, and that’s why something simple becomes a fight.


I wasn’t being passive aggressive, I was being snide and sarcastic... there is a difference.

But I am being sincere and on the level now. 

What you are calling nit picking, I am calling out as manipulation, coercion, disrespect and just plain nastiness. 

She is being mean. She IS the problem and as someone said above, she is making herself the enemy. 

When someone is being mean and bullying, you do not resolve their behavior by capitulation. Ask the French how well capitulation worked for them in WWII but I digress...

My point is, when someone is coercing you and bullying you and using temper tantrums and threats to get their way, you cannot “nice” them into treating you with respect and dignity. 

You do it through establishing firm boundaries and holding them accountable for their bad behavior and letting them experience the repercussions and consequences of their behavior. 

I don’t understand why you are so blind to what is taking place here as you are normally very perceptive and astute. But for some reason this one is going over your head. Have you actually read the OP’s actual posts and actually read what is taking place in their home? 

This is not a case of him watching tv while the dog craps on the floor in front of him and he does nothing about it. 

She is consciously and knowingly manipulating and coercing him and pushing him to a breaking point. 

She is mistreating and disrespecting and bullying him through chronic criticism and emasculation. 

If this continues he will lash out and shove back in a disproportionate manner but it will be the result of her chronically mistreating and disparaging him - not because he didn’t communicate well enough or have enough understanding or employ enough compassionate descalation technique.

I don’t understand why you are having such a hard time seeing this.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> Stop being passive aggressive.
> 
> I’m not saying her behavior is ok, I understand how he can feel annoyed from her nit picking. But standing up to her is not the answer, because it’s making her the enemy, and your furthering the parent child relationship.
> 
> That’s his wife. Not his enemy, not his parent, not his high school bully. They are equals. So to feel attacked means that he is making her the problem, the enemy, the bully. He is making himself the victim that needs to come out swinging. That’s not what you want to do. That’s just going to upset her more, and that’s why something simple becomes a fight.


It's a global communication issue. What @oldshirt and the OP are talking about here is not the occasional nit pick, it's a constant, relentless virtually everything you do is wrong scenario. It is an issue that has to be handled in a holistic manner. 

The situation is something like this, new baby comes, things are a blur for like the first 4-6 weeks both parents are in a weird bliss fog exhausted but excited. Then things start to settle down, day to day routine sets in, mom is on non-stop all day with the child, dad comes home to an exhausted frustrated wife who hasn't had a second to relax. Even if Dad has a stressful job, he has been out of the house in the world seeing and talking to other adults. Even if Dad is 100% on duty the second he walks in the door he is messing up her rhythm, to Mom he is in the way. She starts to take her loneliness from lack of social contact and exhaustion out on him by nagging over everything he does because his mere presence annoys her for reasons she can't begin to articulate. Basically she is locked in this fog of battle that looks nothing like the ideal picture of the instagram moms she was following during her entire pregnancy. So for some reason that defies explanation Mom sees Dad as the enemy, even when he's just trying to help, he is a problem. If not addressed this dynamic will continue and it will drive them both crazy. 

It is impossible to understand unless you've been through it. Maybe it's a variation of PPD maybe it's just some peoples response to semi social isolation coupled with exhaustion. Pretty much every couple I know with kids have gone through some variation of this, the adjustment is hard. The sooner it's addressed the less damage is done. I would venture to guess that a high percentage of first time marriage counseling clients have young kids.


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> And I think he should start by pointing out her moodiness ( nicely. By asking her if everything is alright). Because I know that sometimes I dont realize I am being moody, so I appreciate it when someone says... oh wow, is everything ok? You seem angry/crabby/upset. Then she knows she is coming off negatively. I usually say oh crap, no I’m sorry I don’t mean to be angry, or I’m sorry I’m just stressed about x,y,z sorry if I’m taking it out on you. Oh that’s ok, is there anything I can do to help?
> 
> That’s a healthy interaction. 1. Noticing her negative mood and asking if she is ok makes her feel like you care. 2. Drawing her attention to the fact that her negative mood is rubbing off on you. 3. Taking responsibility for your negative tone/mood. 4. Being able to express how she feels without being attacked or judged. Being listened to by the one you love. 5. Making her feel understood, and asking if she needs help.
> 
> This puts them on the same team. This shows her that he notices her moods and he cares. This makes her realize her negative mood is negatively affecting him.


I really think you are off base on this. A healthy interaction is not one person getting to treat the other like crap and then excusing it with their moods and expecting a hug and snickers. I am sure the OP is showing signs of wear and tear from these constant interactions - why exactly is his wife not expected to be the one to notice he is having a hard time, ask him if he is okay, not judge him, ask if he needs help. make him feel heard? That is a parent-child dynamic as well - one person acting like a petulant teenager when it suits them and expecting their spouse to soothe them.

She did not just ask him a simple question. Name one alternative answer to “why did you wash that?” besides “I thought it needed washing”. There isn’t one. She did not ask a simple question, she made a simple statement “you are wrong”. For what purpose other than to cut him down? When you hear those often enough all simple questions are heard as simple negative statements.

It IS abusive.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Depends why she's btching. Usually there's a good reason. Again, he has money and could just hire her some household help. No excuse to let things like this get in the way if you have enough money to make them go away.


House keeper etc. is one thing but it doesn't buy mom a break from the regular breast feeding of the poop machine and all the other needs of the baby. You can get a nanny, ours ran us about 60k a year and a lot of moms then feel like a failure for feeling they need one which only makes the situation worse.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I can’t disagree more with you guys. But at the end of the day it doesn’t matter. The OP needs to figure out how to fix this issue. What do you guys think he needs to do? Yell at her and tell her stop treating me like this!! Every time she nit picks? And do you guys actually think she will retreat and change her behavior because he yelled at her? 

We really need to hear more from the OP. 

All I know is that if my partner sets this boundary on me I would be confused because I don’t even think I crossed a boundary. You can’t change something you don’t understand.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Here’s the difference. I don’t think she realizes she is coming off negative, and nagging. You guys think she is purposefully being manipulative and abusive. Why would anyone want to think that about their spouse? Thinking this makes her the enemy, and you the victim and you guys are not on the same page, you have a parent child relationship.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> House keeper etc. is one thing but it doesn't buy mom a break from the regular breast feeding of the poop machine and all the other needs of the baby. You can get a nanny, ours ran us about 60k a year and a lot of moms then feel like a failure for feeling they need one which only makes the situation worse.


I don't know a mom who would pass up the chance to have a nanny. Their child is no longer a baby, though. She's 4. A very exhausting age. I imagine her mother is down to her very last nerve most of the time.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Depends why she's btching. Usually there's a good reason. Again, he has money and could just hire her some household help. No excuse to let things like this get in the way if you have enough money to make them go away.


Again the devil is in the details and context is everything.

If he was sacked out in front of the tv the moment he got home and his idea of helping around the house was lifting up his feet so she could vacuum under them, I would agree.

But as I said earlier, someone that would start a fight because he washed a lid that was clean and threatens to divorce anytime he says anything is not a “reason.” It’s manipulation, coercion and possibly abuse. 

There’s never any reason to treat someone disrespectfully and threateningly and with open hostility. 

If she found out a complete stranger washed a lid that was clean - would she go off on that stranger???

If she did, she’d probably get locked up or hauled off for a psyche eval.

So why is it ok for her to treat her spouse and the father of her child this way??

Has he done something that justifies her being more resentful and more hostile and more aggressive towards him?? 

Do any of you really, truly think that it would be ok and that you would deserve it if your partner goes off on you for washing a lid?

Now apply that chronically every day. Is it acceptable to you to be treated like that? 

Now given the fact that he IS being an involved husband and father and IS putting forth sincere effort to be an active parent and spouse, and test she still treats him this way ....... is it logical that a housekeeper or nanny will make everything ok??

He gets yelled at and threatened with divorce for washing a lid as an active and involved husband and father........ will a housekeeper/nanny make her respectful and cooperative??? 

Do those two things add up or is the more rational explanation that she is disrespectful and mean and nasty towards him??


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> I can’t disagree more with you guys. But at the end of the day it doesn’t matter. The OP needs to figure out how to fix this issue. What do you guys think he needs to do? Yell at her and tell her stop treating me like this!! Every time she nit picks? And do you guys actually think she will retreat and change her behavior because he yelled at her?
> 
> We really need to hear more from the OP.
> 
> All I know is that if my partner sets this boundary on me I would be confused because I don’t even think I crossed a boundary. You can’t change something you don’t understand.


If you don’t understand common decency and courtesy towards a fellow human being, then there’s no hope for you. You’ll make your own bed.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> Here’s the difference. I don’t think she realizes she is coming off negative, and nagging. You guys think she is purposefully being manipulative and abusive. Why would anyone want to think that about their spouse? Thinking this makes her the enemy, and you the victim and you guys are not on the same page, you have a parent child relationship.


Ok, if you do not have the self-actualization to realize you’re going off the rails when go off and pick a fight with your spouse and father of your child (who I presume puts her food on her table and roof over head) because he washed a lid....... then you are mentally ill. Then you need help and intervention.

Now maybe she does have some kind of undiagnosed mental illness or hormonal imbalance personality disorder or something.

But if you think you are ok if you lose your sht because someone washed a lid - then you’re wrong. 

This isn’t rational. This isn’t reasonable. This isn’t normal. This isn’t ok.

So really, yes she knows she’s being mean and mistreating him - which makes her abusive and a btch.

Or she truly doesn’t know in which case she is mentally ill. 

I don’t know why you aren’t getting this.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Again the devil is in the details and context is everything.
> 
> If he was sacked out in front of the tv the moment he got home and his idea of helping around the house was lifting up his feet so she could vacuum under them, I would agree.
> 
> ...


You are missing half the story! We don’t know what she went off on because he left out the part about what he said in response!!


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> You are missing half the story! We don’t know what she went off on because he left out the part about what he said in response!!


This is what we know. She says something like hey what are you washing that lid?? Then .... blank blank blank, and then we’ll you should marry someone else then! We are missing an important Piece. 

We need the OP to comment.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> I can’t disagree more with you guys. But at the end of the day it doesn’t matter. The OP needs to figure out how to fix this issue. What do you guys think he needs to do? Yell at her and tell her stop treating me like this!! Every time she nit picks? And do you guys actually think she will retreat and change her behavior because he yelled at her?
> 
> We really need to hear more from the OP.
> 
> All I know is that if my partner sets this boundary on me I would be confused because I don’t even think I crossed a boundary. You can’t change something you don’t understand.


I can tell @dreamingofthepast what I did.

Basically things came to a head when our second (daughter) was about 8 months. So we had a 2 1/2 YO boy and the 8 month old boy. My wifes second pregnancy had been difficult and she started a new more stressful job when our daughter was about 6 months. We had a full time nanny and my wife worked from home.

Things were kind of like the OP describes, probably not as bad as his situation my wife was just kind of hostile towards me most of the time. Nothing I did was right. If I didn't instinctively know something needed to be done I was stupid. Even though we were having fairly regular sex I was basically a sex toy for her, a means to an end. I would call her out on her attitude and she would just dismiss my complaints, I just had no idea what she was dealing with all day trying to work and be there for the kids. 

So basically one night I told her once the kids are in bed we need to talk, she asked about what I said we'll talk later. I wanted to keep her guessing. Once the kids were in bed we sat down and I asked her what was wrong, why was she so negative towards me all the time, I asked if there was something I was doing to cause it or if there was something more I could be doing to help. At first she acted like she had no idea what I was talking about, so I gave her very specific examples, I have a very good memory so that helped. I basically laid out all her bad behavior and told her it was completely unacceptable, and it was making me not want to be around her at all I said "You need to understand that this is really really bad for our marriage". She protested and tried every excuse in the book, when she said she was sleep deprived I reminder her at night I woke up for baby duty, even with breast feeding I would get up get the baby bring her to my wife in bed, wait for her to be done feeding and then tae her back and put her back to sleep. I left her no wiggle room but to admit it was a problem WE needed to solve. 

We talked for a few hours trying to figure out what might work and finally decided we needed professional help. She setup an appointment with her OB and we found a marriage counselor. The OB discovered she had some out of whack hormones, nothing way out of whack, just a little unbalanced, nothing to the point she needed any treatment but the OB recommended more exercise and some vitamins. The marriage counselor jumped right on it and had seen this many times before. She told my wife point blank we needed to work on this or we would end up divorced. 

My wife kept an emotional journal detailing her emotions, when she was feeling most overwhelmed and times when she was feeling good and happy. We looked for patterns and found that when she went a while without getting out of the house at all she would get more down. So we started a thing a few times a week when I would get home from work she would go out, it could be for a drink with a friend or grocery shopping, didn't matter what, just some time out of the house. We also started a thing where when the kids went to bed we would hang out and discuss things, nothing kid related, or household related, we would plan dream vacations or talk about politics or talk about sex, whatever just normal adult conversations. We also started mandatory date nights every week. We also started taking weekends away just us. After about two months of this we went through what some would describe as a hysterical re-bonding phase, We probably had sex at least once a day for a month-month and a half. Around this time we got our almighty savior our last nanny, who was the real life version of Mary Poppins. She would put our date nights on the calendar and make sure we followed, she would let us know when it had been more than a couple of months since a weekend getaway.

I can very confidently say that since that time our marriage has been nearly flawless. We are way closer than ever, our sex life has been fantastic and the future is very bright. 

That first talk was difficult and there was crying and raised voices but it needed to happen.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't know a mom who would pass up the chance to have a nanny. Their child is no longer a baby, though. She's 4. A very exhausting age. I imagine her mother is down to her very last nerve most of the time.


I agree but I also think a lot of moms today are inundated with these images and stories of super moms in their perfectly clean organized houses doing arts and crafts and dancing to disney songs. When in reality most of the time that same house is a disatser, the kid is running around half dressed with scissors in their hands while mom is sitting on the couch chugging chardonnay.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

happyhusband0005 said:


> No you're wrong the lid is there as a backstop so teenage boys don't pee all over the tank.


The lid is to curtail the spread of droplets when the toilet is flushed so bacteria and such don't spread to walls and floors and you.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't know a mom who would pass up the chance to have a nanny. Their child is no longer a baby, though. She's 4. A very exhausting age. I imagine her mother is down to her very last nerve most of the time.


She may not pass up the nanny, but I question whether it would help him much.

She’d probably blame him for everything the nanny does. 

She has a lot of resentment and hostility and disdain for him. It’s questionable whether a nanny would alleviate any of that for him or just add another level of complexity in their lives that she would blame on him.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I just hope she isn't nagging him to put spoons with spoons and forks with forks in the dishwasher. They will nestle and not get cleaned well. 

It's obvious she doesn't see herself as being a constant nag. I would record her for a few days and then have a sit down and show her the proof if she proclaims her innocence. OP, keep a VAR (voice activated recorder) on you for a few days to get the evidence.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> The lid is to curtail the spread of droplets when the toilet is flushed so bacteria and such don't spread to walls and floors and you.


On the tooth brush


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Side bar: this thread is reminding me exactly why I marched into the urologist’s office and demanded they disconnect my plumbing when my 2nd was born.

I would never ever ever ever ever EVER *EVER *even consider having kids again. EVER!!! 

It was hell on earth. 

I think the reason society and grandmothers outright lie to people and tell them kids are wonderful is because if people knew the truth about parenthood, the species would die out in one generation.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

Girl_power said:


> I can’t disagree more with you guys. But at the end of the day it doesn’t matter. The OP needs to figure out how to fix this issue. What do you guys think he needs to do? Yell at her and tell her stop treating me like this!! Every time she nit picks? And do you guys actually think she will retreat and change her behavior because he yelled at her?
> 
> We really need to hear more from the OP.
> 
> All I know is that if my partner sets this boundary on me I would be confused because I don’t even think I crossed a boundary. You can’t change something you don’t understand.


You said you have been accused of being a nag IRL early in this thread. So there's that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't know a mom who would pass up the chance to have a nanny. Their child is no longer a baby, though. She's 4. A very exhausting age. I imagine her mother is down to her very last nerve most of the time.


They do only have one child who is at nursery a lot. Most couples have 2, 3 or more, and no day nursery.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Side bar: this thread is reminding me exactly why I marched into the urologist’s office and demanded they disconnect my plumbing when my 2nd was born.
> 
> I would never ever ever ever ever EVER *EVER *even consider having kids again. EVER!!!
> 
> ...


I always wanted children and I never regretted having three for a second. Yes they are hard work, but no we dont lie, we just don't see it the same as you.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I just cant imagine how depressing it must be to be treated like this day in and day out. Anyone facing this all the time will probably either snap or simply loose all the love they have for this person. Either way they may end up very depressed.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> Here’s the difference. I don’t think she realizes she is coming off negative, and nagging. You guys think she is purposefully being manipulative and abusive. Why would anyone want to think that about their spouse? Thinking this makes her the enemy, and you the victim and you guys are not on the same page, you have a parent child relationship.


Because some people are super cu**s. They really are. And some unfortunate people are married to said super cu**s.

Lots of people are deliberately manipulate, abusive, and are assholes.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

dreamingofthepast said:


> The thing that really galls me, though, is the minute I push back, she_ immediately_ goes for the nuclear option. "Maybe you should get married to somebody else then!" is one of her favourites. "So what, you're saying I shouldn't ever talk to you??" is the other. There's just a complete lack of willingness to be remotely reasonable.


^^This^^ seems to be the biggest issue. When OP attempts to "push back" he's met with a hostile response. OTOH I don't know what the OP says when he's pushing back. It could be incendiary. It sounds like his wife's responses are pretty extreme, but unless and until the OP comes back, it's a matter of speculation, and I don't care to speculate.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> They do only have one child who is at nursery a lot. Most couples have 2, 3 or more, and no day nursery.


Well she seems overwhelmed and I know I would be with even one baby or toddler. I'm just saying most people would not mind having some help that they could use when it was convenient for them. It's hard to even go to the store with a toddler. Everything becomes a chore.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I just cant imagine how depressing it must be to be treated like this day in and day out. Anyone facing this all the time will probably either snap or simply loose all the love they have for this person. Either way they may end up very depressed.


Here’s the thing, it not just being depressed.

This thread has been very triggering for me.

As adults, we have all had fights with our partner(s). We’ve had relationships begin and end. We’ve had relationships that don’t work out and break up. A number of people here have experienced divorce.

But until someone has been the recipient of unending, constant and chronic contempt, disdain, hostility and continuous criticism for every little thing they do and can do nothing right no matter how hard they try or how much sincere effort into it day in and day out for months or even years on end — they don’t know what it is. 

When you have experienced death by a thousand criticisms and put downs, it changes you. You aren’t the person you used to be. 

And you never look at your partner the same again even if you are able to work out a truce and come out the other side. 

My wife capitulated in the 11th hour. There is no other way to put it. When she finally realized that she was really going to be a single mother and only have her kids on certain days of the week, it was only then that she chose that keeping the family together in the marital home was more important to her that criticizing and being disrespectful and contemptuous of me. 

She hasn’t really changed her feelings for me, she has just learned to keep her thoughts to herself and her mouth shut. 

I accepted her terms of surrender and did not drop The Bomb. 

But I’ll never go through it again. 

If I somehow walk through a wormhole or time warp and come out back when her contempt of me started, I won’t go through it again. 

I’ll pack my bags and live in a little apartment and see the kids when the court says and I’ll write out my child support checks if I’m ordered to (we have similar incomes)

But I will never, ever, ever tolerate that kind of animosity again. From anyone. 

It’s abuse. It’s cruelty, it’s dehumanizing.

It’s not nagging at someone to pick up after themselves. 

It’s attacking and cutting down the core of someone’s being one criticism and complaint at a time. It’s the put downs and humiliations and disparaging tones and sneers and total lack of warmth and compassion and esteem for the person you created life with. 

Never again. 

She cried the day I got my vasectomy as she wanted more kids and all I could say is, “there is the G-dammed door, if you can find some other sorry sack of sht to give you more kids, you go do it, but stay the F away from me!”

(Ok, that wasn’t what I really said,,, but she knew that was my message and knew why I wasn’t having any more kids with her).


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> The lid is to curtail the spread of droplets when the toilet is flushed so bacteria and such don't spread to walls and floors and you.


Yah, thats what it's for in your world, you obviously must not have a son.


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

Torninhalf said:


> I get what you are saying but why would anyone care why anyone else was washing anything?


I have to guess that there is an underlying issue. Generally, when people get this upset over the tiniest things, those things are not really what they are upset about at all. It's usually another (perhaps difficult to discuss) issue altogether. 

OP, I'd sit your wife down for a chat. She seems to be feeling a bit out of control. That's never good. Find out what's really bugging her, so she'll stop freaking out over every little thing.

Of course, some men seem to think that every word their wife has to say is "nagging" too. So, make sure it's not you who is annoyed over underlying issues. It might be a bit of both.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

OnTheRocks said:


> You said you have been accused of being a nag IRL early in this thread. So there's that.


Yeah.

And Hitler and the Nazis maintained that there would be no need for war if the other countries would simply stop shooting at them as they blitzkrieked across their borders and would exterminate their Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and mentally handicapped people like they asked.

As long as they did those things and goose-stepped in their parades and saluted the swastika and did as they were told, there’d be no conflict.

It’s really quite simple from the tyrant’s point of view isn’t it.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Girl_power said:


> If my husband asked me why I’m washing a lid, or why I put the forks in with the spoons I would never think to myself wow what a nag.


Yes but it's all in the delivery. If my husband asked "why did you wash that lid darling?" I would reply with "Because it was on the sink near the dirty dishes and I assumed it needed washing". End of.

If he asked me "Why did you wash that f%($^# lid?!? wtf is wrong with you?" he'd be talking like Mickey Mouse for a week.

This woman is nit picking at him all day, every day. It's reached boiling point where no matter what she asks him, it comes across as nit picking/criticism whatever you want to call it.

There's clearly a reason for it, could be PND, could be she's overwhelmed if she's working, could be she's not suited to being a SAHM, could be that she's just a *****. That's what OP is trying to find out.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Yeah.
> 
> And Hitler and the Nazis maintained that there would be no need for war if the other countries would simply stop shooting at them as they blitzkrieked across their borders and would exterminate their Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and mentally handicapped people like they asked.
> 
> ...


All I can say is I have no ill will in my heart towards my partners. And I did not recognize that I was being a nag. Even when I was called out for it, I didn’t fully understand. 

Once I asked him to take the garbage out and he was like there! That’s what I’m talking about. And I was like wait what? And he was like it’s your tone and your always telling me what to do. And I still didn’t get it, like I’m asking you to take the garbage out... you can say no, but it doesn’t mean anything else. He literally thought I had all these crazy motives it was crazy how much he hated me and thought so negatively of me.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

frusdil said:


> Yes but it's all in the delivery. If my husband asked "why did you wash that lid darling?" I would reply with "Because it was on the sink near the dirty dishes and I assumed it needed washing". End of.
> 
> If he asked me "Why did you wash that f%($^# lid?!? wtf is wrong with you?" he'd be talking like Mickey Mouse for a week.


How many kids have got swatted across the mouth and sent to the naughty chair, not so much for ‘what’ they said, but ‘how’ they said it? 

Tone, voice inflection, body language and demeanor often say volumes more than the actual words.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> All I can say is I have no ill will in my heart towards my partners. And I did not recognize that I was being a nag. Even when I was called out for it, I didn’t fully understand.
> 
> Once I asked him to take the garbage out and he was like there! That’s what I’m talking about. And I was like wait what? And he was like it’s your tone and your always telling me what to do. And I still didn’t get it, like I’m asking you to take the garbage out... you can say no, but it doesn’t mean anything else. He literally thought I had all these crazy motives it was crazy how much he hated me and thought so negatively of me.


See my post # 113


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> See my post # 113


I’m on the app, the posts aren’t numbered.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> See my post # 113


I am not discrediting your experience. I am just sharing my side, which is why I think it’s all a bunch of mis understanding. 

My ex always said I nagged or complained when I was just making a statement. He convinced himself that I was his enemy and this bad person who had ulterior motives. But I loved him. And I showed him love the way I could, I was super super generous. Generous with my money, generous with my affection, I always complimented him and I never refused sex from him. But for some reason I could never say the right thing. I offended him easily, or my tone was wrong or I was too blunt. It was crazy. Every time I told him I was upset, he would attack me, because he made me the enemy and he always interpret what I’m saying as an attack on him. It was so crazy to me. 

So when she says why are you washing the lid? She means your wasting your time washing a clean dish, NOT your an idiot, your wrong what the hell are you doing? 

It’s frustrating because not everything is about you guys. You guys take some things so personally and twist things around and make us these nags and these annoying people you can’t stand to be around but it’s all in your head.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> I am not discrediting your experience. I am just sharing my side, which is why I think it’s all a bunch of mis understanding.
> 
> My ex always said I nagged or complained when I was just making a statement. He convinced himself that I was his enemy and this bad person who had ulterior motives. But I loved him. And I showed him love the way I could, I was super super generous. Generous with my money, generous with my affection, I always complimented him and I never refused sex from him. But for some reason I could never say the right thing. I offended him easily, or my tone was wrong or I was too blunt. It was crazy. Every time I told him I was upset, he would attack me, because he made me the enemy and he always interpret what I’m saying as an attack on him. It was so crazy to me.
> 
> ...


The OP’s wife may be talking about her “ex” the same way one of these days if she’s not careful. 

At the end of the day, people have to want to be with their partner in order for the marriage/relationship to work. 

If someone is going to btch that their partner washed a lid, do they actually want to be with them?

And likewise, is someone going to want to remain with someone that complains about everything they do?

To be in a relationship is a choice. Do we make our relationship an environment that our partner wants to be in and do they do the same for us?

If the OP walks or if she gives him the boot, it won’t be because of a misunderstanding or misinterpretation.

It won’t even necessarily be because one is right or one is wrong. 

It will be because one or both no longer wants to live in that environment.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

For some reason this discussion reminds me of this article:
She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes By The Sink | HuffPost Life 
Might be worth a read; maybe there is something behind the microcomplaints, maybe they are part of a bigger picture he's not seeing.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Side bar: this thread is reminding me exactly why I marched into the urologist’s office and demanded they disconnect my plumbing when my 2nd was born.
> 
> I would never ever ever ever ever EVER *EVER *even consider having kids again. EVER!!!
> 
> ...


Oh come on kids are pretty great. My daughter is the sweetest thing in the world. Though I will admit I have thought about leaving my son on the side of the highway once or twice.


oldshirt said:


> Here’s the thing, it not just being depressed.
> 
> This thread has been very triggering for me.
> 
> ...


Why did you choose to stay married to her?


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I just want to say that, it’s ****ty to think negatively of your spouse. That’s really destructive to any relationship. Even if I’m naive, I will always give my partner the benefit of the doubt. 
So to wake up every morning and think... geez I wonder what she will get mad at me today for? I think that’s a really negative mindset. And it’s like your waiting to get offended, your waiting to attack. So when she says something stupid like why did you wash that dish? In your mind your like here it is, she’s mad again. Which may not at all be the truth. Your putting yourself against her first thing in the morning.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> So to wake up every morning and think... geez I wonder what she will get mad at me today for? I think that’s a really negative mindset.


Chicken vs egg. 

The reason someone wakes up wondering what their spouse is going to be mad at them today for is usually because they ARE getting on them about something every day.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Chicken vs egg.
> 
> The reason someone wakes up wondering what their spouse is going to be mad at them today for is usually because they ARE getting on them about something every day.


And I would of hashed it out right away instead of letting it fester. I mean you guys don’t say anything and you let it fester and you end up hating your spouse over it. It’s so unhealthy.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Girl_power said:


> So when she says why are you washing the lid? She means your wasting your time washing a clean dish, NOT your an idiot, your wrong what the hell are you doing?


Yes but that's you, and what you mean, hell - it's me too, but from OP has written, it doesn't sound like that's his wife's intention.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Why did you choose to stay married to her?


As I said above, she capitulated in the 11th hour and chose to step back before going over the edge of the cliff.

She ultimately chose her family being together meant more to her than ragging on me all the time. 

Had she chosen to divorce or chose to keep being cold and critical to me, I would have divorced. I would have been sad and bummed and heartbroken, but I would have done it. 

Like everyone else, I was raised for better for worse and the kids were young and our original foundation was good. 

If she was willing to swallow her pride and try even though she seemed to hate me, I was willing to try too. 

But like I said in my post above - never again. If I hit a time warp and go back in time, I won’t make the same decision again.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> And I would of hashed it out right away instead of letting it fester. I mean you guys don’t say anything and you let it fester and you end up hating your spouse over it. It’s so unhealthy.


The OP indicated he has tried to address it and she would then make not-so-veiled threats to divorce.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> As I said above, she capitulated in the 11th hour and chose to step back before going over the edge of the cliff.
> 
> She ultimately chose her family being together meant more to her than ragging on me all the time.
> 
> ...


Do you think the current issues you have with her might be related to that time?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Openminded said:


> Do you think the current issues you have with her might be related to that time?


Does the knee, hip or back injury you sustained in high school football give you aches and pains when a weather change takes place now?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> I mean you guys don’t say anything and you let it fester and you end up hating your spouse over it. It’s so unhealthy.


Yet by your own statement in an earlier post, your ex DID call you out on it and even bring specific examples to your attention. 

But instead of taking it into consideration and self-reflecting, you STILL continue to brush it off and maintain that he is in the wrong and that he was mistaken and misunderstanding you since you don’t believe that you had ill-will in your heart. 

But what was truly in your heart doesn’t matter now does it because he is still gone. 

You can sit and say that your motives and feelings were not hostile, but your actions were still toxic to the relationship and created an environment for which the relationship could not continue.

So too is the risk of OP’s marriage. 

He has tried to address it but when he does she retaliates with threats of divorce. If she is not careful, he may take her up on it EVEN IF that is not her actual wish. 

This scenario encompasses a number of Gottman’s 4 horsemen of the apocalypse.


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## FarmTownGirl (Feb 18, 2021)

marko polo said:


> " _Divorce is not an option for me: I want to make this work; underneath it all, I love her, and there is no way my daughter is going to grow up without me in the home. Help! _"
> 
> It may not be an option for you but have you considered it is one for her. That what she is doing is deliberate.


I wouldn't have thought of that but you make an interesting point. The fact that she jumps in with "maybe you'd be happier married to someone else" is almost like she's trying to plant the idea in his head. She picks and picks and picks at him until he's upset and then tells him he must want someone else.

OP: You might try something like this -- wait until there is peace and calm then ask her seriously:

"Are you happy? With us?"

If she says NO, don't get defensive, dig in and try to find out what her REAL problem is. ('cause it's obviously not you washing a lid unnecessarily.) Pay attention and let her vent.

If she insists she IS happy, tell her "I don't want to hide my true thoughts and feelings from you -- I love you very much but I am honestly not happy. you seem upset with me all the time. I feel like I have to walk on egg shells around you. If I'm making you so miserable we need to get to the bottom of this because I can't go on like this indefinitely."

You might also have a list in your mind ready of the last 5 - 10 petty things she corrected you over and if she denies anything is wrong or gets defensive say (in a very concerned voice) Look, you criticized me over a, b, c, d, e, etc. just today. If I'm doing or not doing something that's hurting you, I need to know so I can fix it. But I'm a grown man and I'm done being criticized over insignificant things.

And then in the future when she criticizes you just give her a flippant reply like:
Because I felt like it.
That's just how I roll.
Who cares?
So what?
*Show no remorse.*

Also consider:
She could be clinically depressed.
She could be having an emotional or physical affair and looking for reasons to demonize you to justify her behavior.


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## FarmTownGirl (Feb 18, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> But after you've told her once, then have you tried ignoring her when she spouts the ridiculous?


Or laughing at her.

Or hugging her while saying something like "oh honey, noooooo.... I put a spoon in the fork slot? Let me give you a HUG, I'm so sorry you had to experience that... will you be ok?"


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Girl_power said:


> If I reverse the gender and put myself in OPs point of view...
> 
> If my husband asked me why I’m washing a lid, or why I put the forks in with the spoons I would never think to myself wow what a nag.
> 
> ...


It is often tone of voice.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well she seems overwhelmed and I know I would be with even one baby or toddler. I'm just saying most people would not mind having some help that they could use when it was convenient for them. It's hard to even go to the store with a toddler. Everything becomes a chore.


We regularly help care for a toddler and we are in our 60's. Yes its tiring at our age, but the blessings and joy they bring far outweigh that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> As I said above, she capitulated in the 11th hour and chose to step back before going over the edge of the cliff.
> 
> She ultimately chose her family being together meant more to her than ragging on me all the time.
> 
> ...


I remember hearing a quite well know woman telling the story of what happened in her marriage in the early days. She had been very controlling and bossy and manipulative with her husband and one day he said to her, you know, I am honestly beginning to hate you. THAT was what brought her up short and made her realise that she had to change. It wasnt easy as she had come from a terribly abusive family, but gradually she began to treat him differently and their marriage improved dramatically. They are still happily married 50 years later.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> The OP indicated he has tried to address it and she would then make not-so-veiled threats to divorce.


Which is in itself very manipulatve behaviour.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

FarmTownGirl said:


> Or laughing at her.
> 
> Or hugging her while saying something like "oh honey, noooooo.... I put a spoon in the fork slot? Let me give you a HUG, I'm so sorry you had to experience that... will you be ok?"


That may help a normal, rational person that does not have an actual beef against you realize they are being silly and petty. 

But for someone that is actually hypercritical and contemptuous of you, that will escalate the situation significantly and inflame them. 

When someone has actual contempt and disdain for you and is hypercritical of you as the OP is describing, it is just as he says, NOTHING you do is right and just the act of existing sets them off and escalates. Once someone has reached that state of contempt, I don't know if there is anything the other individual can do besides set firm boundaries on acceptable treatment and then seeking professional intervention.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> The reason someone wakes up wondering what their spouse is going to be mad at them today for is usually because they ARE getting on them about something every day.


Eh, sometimes it's because _their mother_ got on them every day about something and they react to anyone in that mom/wife role the way they wanted to react to her as a kid/teen but didn't dare. My ex-husband had that issue. 

I remember he lost it once shortly after we were married because I said, "Hey, Love, do you mind running this bag of trash out to the outside bin? The shrimp shells are getting a little funky," while I was elbows deep in a sink full of dirty dishes after making him his favorite dinner. That got a reaction as if I'd slapped him and screamed in his face that he was stupid. He instantly came out swinging (verbally). Not because of the way _I_ behaved or _my_ tone, but because his mom was a shrieking harpy who nagged all the time. And he didn't have the emotional intelligence to separate _his wife_ from _her as a wife._ In his mind, any wife could simply be 100% counted on to be an angry, raging ***** all the time, and should be engaged as such. Because "wife".

Now, that's not always, probably not even usually, what's happening in a situation such as the OP describes. But it's guaranteed to be true that the OP and his wife are both contributing to _the dynamic_ he describes - even if his part is only that he hasn't yet found a way to shut down her negativity. Which is why I suggested to him, way back on page one, that he should try to find out why his wife resents him - because it really seems like she does. Or, failing that, try to get her to agree to MC. They both need to work on their dynamic, and the best way to actually achieve that might be to focus on it as "them vs. the problem" rather than "him vs. her".


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Yet by your own statement in an earlier post, your ex DID call you out on it and even bring specific examples to your attention.
> 
> But instead of taking it into consideration and self-reflecting, you STILL continue to brush it off and maintain that he is in the wrong and that he was mistaken and misunderstanding you since you don’t believe that you had ill-will in your heart.
> 
> ...


My ex had narcissistic traits. I wasn’t allowed to say anything to him without it feeling like an attack on him. Me telling him that I was disappointed that he wasn’t there for me when I hurt my knee (because he lied about having to work), turned out to him screaming at me and being super defensive. 

It’s abuse that every time you tell your partner how you feel they blow up at you. 

So correct, some of the things he brought to my attention i didn’t think they were complaining/nagging or a problem. I think he just didn’t want to do anything. If anyone on here knows anything about our relationship, he did not carry his weight. 


The OP wants to fix his marriage. He doesn’t want to fight with her 24/7, therefore they need to get at the root cause of the issue.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Rowan said:


> Eh, sometimes it's because _their mother_ got on them every day about something and they react to anyone in that mom/wife role the way they wanted to react to her as a kid/teen but didn't dare. My ex-husband had that issue.
> 
> I remember he lost it once shortly after we were married because I said, "Hey, Love, do you mind running this bag of trash out to the outside bin? The shrimp shells are getting a little funky," while I was elbows deep in a sink full of dirty dishes after making him his favorite dinner. That got a reaction as if I'd slapped him and screamed in his face that he was stupid. He instantly came out swinging (verbally). Not because of the way _I_ behaved or _my_ tone, but because his mom was a shrieking harpy who nagged all the time. And he didn't have the emotional intelligence to separate _his wife_ from _her as a wife._ In his mind, any wife could simply be 100% counted on to be an angry, raging *** all the time, and should be engaged as such. Because "wife".
> 
> Now, that's not always, probably not even usually, what's happening in a situation such as the OP describes. But it's guaranteed to be true that the OP and his wife are both contributing to _the dynamic_ he describes - even if his part is only that he hasn't yet found a way to shut down her negativity. Which is why I suggested to him, way back on page one, that he should try to find out why his wife resents him - because it really seems like she does. Or, failing that, try to get her to agree to MC. They both need to work on their dynamic, and the best way to actually achieve that might be to focus on it as "them vs. the problem" rather than "him vs. her".


I 100% agree.

When their response is not appropriate for the situation then something else is going on. 

Someone asking me why I washed the lid would not set me off. If it does, there is an issue. If she is nit piking so much that you start to resent everything when says then it needs to be addressed.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> I 100% agree.
> 
> When their response is not appropriate for the situation then something else is going on.
> 
> Someone asking me why I washed the lid would not set me off. If it does, there is an issue. If she is nit piking so much that you start to resent everything when says then it needs to be addressed.


He did say she nit picks him RELENTLESSLY. That's the issue.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Livvie said:


> He did say she nit picks him RELENTLESSLY. That's the issue.


So he needs to address it and figure out what the deal is. Because I bet he is reacting strongly to it as well and getting defensive so he is part of the problem as well as she is. 

I hate when people say stand up to your wife. She’s your wife dude, just have a conversation with her. Don’t yell back or get defensive, just be like geesh are you ok? You seem angry with me, I can’t do anything right? Or hey it seems your snapping at me, did I do something?

It’s just a conversation opener. I hate it when people avoid confrontation, and they fester their anger towards their wife and then they snap back at them every time and it just causes more damage to the relationship. 

The relationship doesn’t win by standing up to your spouse. It wins by understanding each other. She needs to understand how she comes off and how it makes him feel, and he needs to also react Kinder. 

I would be upset if my husband doesn’t even ask if I’m ok, or if there is anything wrong. I’m not saying it’s ok to be passive aggressive. I’m just saying if I was a tired overwhelmed mom, I would like if my husband asked how I was doing In a serious way. Sometimes men make it all about them. It’s always a good thing to check on your spouse because maybe they need extra love and support. 


I tore 3 ligaments in my knee and I couldn’t walk and all my ex could focus on was how my words made him feel. It was insane. He felt so much angry and entitlement, while the so called love of his life was in pain and upset. It was always about him and how he felt. He was always the victim. 

My point is, check on your freakin wife and see if she is ok. Then talk about how she has negative energy and it’s affecting you, and have a conversation about it. It’s honestly not that hard.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> He did say she nit picks him RELENTLESSLY. That's the issue.


Yeah, I’m not sure why this part is going over a few people’s heads so bad.

I totally agree that if the only thing that occurred in the marriage is one day she asked why he washed a clean lid, it would be a total nonissue and not even a blip on anyone’s radar.

But that is not what is being presented here. What he presented was a situation of relentless, daily, chronic criticism and conflict. 

I realize I am looking through the prism of my experiences which may not exactly reflect his. But I can’t understand why a few people aren’t making the distinction between a one-time event and a chronic pattern of continuous, unabated criticism, contempt and conflict. 

I’m not saying he does not bear some accountability in the continuation of this dynamic. But I don’t get why a few people aren’t grasping its chronic nature or the impact it is having.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

I’m going to agree with oldshirt...the OP said it was relentless. I knew a woman once exactly like this. She screamed at her husband one day for bringing her a glass of wine in the wrong glass. Poor dude couldn’t do anything right. He went back into the kitchen where I happened to be and he was literally shaking. Afraid to make another “mistake”. I really felt bad for him so I took over and poured her wine in a glass jelly jar she had in the cabinet. I am assuming by the look on her face I may have made my point but who knows. I would be grateful just for the gesture of bringing me some wine. 🤷🏼‍♀️


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> We regularly help care for a toddler and we are in our 60's. Yes its tiring at our age, but the blessings and joy they bring far outweigh that.


I'm sure whoever you're babysitting for greatly appreciates the break from it.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Yeah, I’m not sure why this part is going over a few people’s heads so bad.
> 
> I totally agree that if the only thing that occurred in the marriage is one day she asked why he washed a clean lid, it would be a total nonissue and not even a blip on anyone’s radar.
> 
> ...





oldshirt said:


> Yeah, I’m not sure why this part is going over a few people’s heads so bad.
> 
> I totally agree that if the only thing that occurred in the marriage is one day she asked why he washed a clean lid, it would be a total nonissue and not even a blip on anyone’s radar.
> 
> ...


I get the difference. But this man wants to make his marriage work. And I am saying through my experience that she may not even know how offensive she is being because I know I didn’t.
I just don’t like the idea of making her into this bad guy. I don’t think it’s ever a good idea to turn against your spouse, or think negative things of them, or plant those bad seeds. I think that if you want a good marriage you have to always give your partner the benefit of the doubt. 
You and I are in the same page, we just want to get there differently. He isn’t 100% innocent. He isn’t a victim. She isn’t this calculating manipulative terrible person. 

The way that happyhusband005 addressed this issue with his wife was great too. 

I just don’t think you should go in guns blazing ready to stand up to this “bully”. How you handle conflict is important. Yes you can scare her straight but that can back fire. But you always want to create a relationship where your wife feels comfortable going to you and talking to you honestly. If you are super angry, your impossible to talk to, and impossible to discuss issues in the marriageZ


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Torninhalf said:


> I’m going to agree with oldshirt...the OP said it was relentless. I knew a woman once exactly like this. She screamed at her husband one day for bringing her a glass of wine in the wrong glass. Poor dude couldn’t do anything right. He went back into the kitchen where I happened to be and he was literally shaking. Afraid to make another “mistake”. I really felt bad for him so I took over and poured her wine in a glass jelly jar she had in the cabinet. I am assuming by the look on her face I may have made my point but who knows. I would be grateful just for the gesture of bringing me some wine.


I have seen that scenario too. And I’ve also seen men getting super upset over nothing at all. My ex MIL pointed to her husband in church (they were all mingling and he wasn’t near her). Anyway, she pointed with her index finger and when she got his attention she like called him over. At home he flipped out. Saying how disrespectful she was, and she was stunned and almost thought he was joking. He threatened to divorce her. Said she needed a lesson in respect. 

I’ve seen men get mad for being asked to take the garbage out. 

The OPs wife isn’t this bad though.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> I have seen that scenario too. And I’ve also seen men getting super upset over nothing at all. My ex MIL pointed to her husband in church (they were all mingling and he wasn’t near her). Anyway, she pointed with her index finger and when she got his attention she like called him over. At home he flipped out. Saying how disrespectful she was, and she was stunned and almost thought he was joking. He threatened to divorce her. Said she needed a lesson in respect.
> 
> I’ve seen men get mad for being asked to take the garbage out.
> 
> The OPs wife isn’t this bad though.


Who knows...maybe the OP will come back and clarify. 🤷🏼‍♀️


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> So he needs to address it and figure out what the deal is. Because I bet he is reacting strongly to it as well and getting defensive so he is part of the problem as well as she is.
> 
> I hate when people say stand up to your wife. She’s your wife dude, just have a conversation with her. Don’t yell back or get defensive, just be like geesh are you ok? You seem angry with me, I can’t do anything right? Or hey it seems your snapping at me, did I do something?
> 
> ...


The part you don’t seem to be getting is *HE HAS DONE THAT!*

He has tried to address it and she would retaliate with thinly veiled threats of divorce.

You aren’t grasping that when someone tries to address an issue and the other person retaliates with escalating anger, hostility and threats - its ESCALATES the problem and throws gas on the fire.

When somebody has contempt and animosity and disdain for you. ANYTHING you say or try to do to help and diffuse the situation actually escalates and inflames it. 

He only made 3 posts but he made that clear that everything he did or said was criticized or made her retaliate. 

I’ve been there. I’ve experienced it firsthand and seen it up close with my own eyes.

I tried EXACTLY what you said above again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again for literally a couple YEARS until it reached a boiling point where the animosity and contempt towards me was so thick I couldn’t live with it any more and was willing to live in a little apartment and pay child support and only see my young kids a few times a week because their mother had so much contempt and animosity towards me.

It wasn’t until a professional MC with a wall full of degrees and certificates and awards hanging on the wall got in her face and described to her the life she would be leading as a single mom in an apartment living on her own and only having access to her children half the time that she started to lower her weapons towards me. 

I did all those things that you described above and it continued to make things *WORSE. *

Until you’ve lived it, I’m not sure you can grasp it. But can you at least read and understand the words that the OP and the other posters are telling you here?

We’ve all tried to have the calm, supportive, loving and understanding talks and conversations to address the issues and fix what the problems were - *IT DIDN’T WORK AND WOULD ONLY MAKE THINGS WORSE. *

It took the realization of divorce and single motherhood along with professional intervention and therapy to break the cycle.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> The part you don’t seem to be getting is *HE HAS DONE THAT!*
> 
> He has tried to address it and she would retaliate with thinly veiled threats of divorce.
> 
> ...


Dude your case is not the same as his. 

He did not say anything about talking to her about the issue. All he said was “when I push back”, and who even knows what that means! It could mean he got defensive, he snapped back, he gave a sarcastic comment. Pushing back does not equal an adult one on one serious conversation. 

You are seeing what you want to see. He did not say anything about having a sit down conversation with this women.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

@happyhusband0005 where you at? Lol


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> I just don’t like the idea of making her into this bad guy. I don’t think it’s ever a good idea to turn against your spouse, or think negative things of them, or plant those bad seeds. I think that if you want a good marriage you have to always give your partner the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> She isn’t this calculating manipulative terrible person.


Let’s make something Chrystal clear here. If you continually criticize someone and show contempt and animosity towards them and you disrespect them and treat them badly - *you WILL become the bad guy to them. *

You will become the villain in their story. They won’t like you anymore.

People don’t like people that mistreat them and criticize them and do not treat them with basic human dignity and respect.

That may be an inconvenient truth but it is a fact of life. 

You may love your partner deep down, but if you treat them badly and disrespect them and chronically criticize them,, they will dislike you. They will no longer want to be with you. And they will develop contempt and hostility and animosity towards you as well. 

You may not be a child molester or a mugger or someone who kicks puppies and you may be a law abiding, tax paying citizen and popular in your social circle and family.

But if you treat someone badly and with contempt and disrespect- you will be their villain and bad guy. 

Bully is as bully does. The OP’s wife may give to charity and put baby birds back into their nests when they fall out. She may even get a lot of likes and followers on Instagram that tell her she’s great.

But if she is bullying him, then she IS the bad guy to him and how you stand up to bad guys and bullies is to call them out and draw a line in the sand and make them feel and experience the repercussions and consequences when they cross it. 

Remember this going forward - if you mistreat someone, you ARE their bad guy.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> Dude your case is not the same as his.
> 
> He did not say anything about talking to her about the issue. All he said was “when I push back”, and who even knows what that means! It could mean he got defensive, he snapped back, he gave a sarcastic comment. Pushing back does not equal an adult one on one serious conversation.
> 
> You are seeing what you want to see. He did not say anything about having a sit down conversation with this women.


We all have a blind spot. You aren’t seeing what you don’t want to see.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> We all have a blind spot. You aren’t seeing what you don’t want to see.


I am saying there is not enough information from the OP to suggest she is as bad as your wife was. 
Not every case is as bad as yours.

@happyhusband0005 nipped his wife’s behavior in the butt quickly before it was a real issue. 

And again... I don’t think the specific nit picking she is doing that he mentioned is bullying, blatant disrespect, and mis treatment. I think that’s a stretch. Hell yea it’s annoying. But to take those things THAT personal that you feel your mis treated, and to compare it to physical abuse... that is crazy. 

What your wife did, was different and it’s hard for you to separate that.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> We all have a blind spot. You aren’t seeing what you don’t want to see.


I’m not trying to play Jr Shrink here but you are totally identifying with the OP’s wife and are starting to grasp the repercussions of your own actions and behaviors.

That’s ok. Self-reflection and self-actualization etc are good things and it’s how we grow and develop as people. 

Yes, I am also identifying with the OP and looking at it through the prism of my own experience. 

But that experience helps me see minute details that others may have missed because have had a similar experience.

Am I off the mark on a few of the details specific to his case? Yes, highly likely. 

But I’ve lived it and experienced it from his position and came out the other side and can relay what ultimately worked for me - which was growing a spine, velcroing my balls back on, calling out her bad behavior and establishing firm boundaries and enforcing them and then seeking professional intervention. 

You’re perspective is trying to get him to appease the wife more. Appeasement does not work with open contempt and hostility. 

The tyrant cannot be appeased, they only demand more.

Only through strength and enforcement of boundaries can one deal with the tyrant.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not trying to play Jr Shrink here but you are totally identifying with the OP’s wife and are starting to grasp the repercussions of your own actions and behaviors.
> 
> That’s ok. Self-reflection and self-actualization etc are good things and it’s how we grow and develop as people.
> 
> ...


I understand both sides. 

My point I am trying to make to the OP is to not lose your balls to begin with. You give your power away when you become the victim, when you see your wife as a bully. 

He should look at her as his wife, who has picked up annoying habits that are starting to affect him mentally. And he needs to nip those habits in the bud and address them ASAP. Not this bully who is mis treating him, and disrespecting him and putting him in a toxic environment. 
The second scenario is giving her all the power. By thinking this way; you are losing your balls and being the victim. 
You don’t understand that. You can’t lose your power, but you can give it away.

I’m saying that there are two people in this marriage that matter. Of course he matters, and he needs to address it and not put up with anything he doesn’t want to put up with. But she also matters. She is not going to be always be perfect. But she has to try, just like he had to try to be understanding.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> I am saying there is not enough information from the OP to suggest she is as bad as your wife was.
> Not every case is as bad as yours.


Actually I think his case is worse than mine was.

Those of us that have lived it do not need to read an entire 439 page case file to see the signs. 

When you see an oncologist that has been practicing for 37 years, he/she will do an entire battery of blood tests, x-rays, ultrasounds, MRIs, tissue biopsies etc etc 

But the moment he/she walks in the room and sees the scelaras of your eyes and the color of your nail beds and texture of your fingernails and hair, he/she knows you have cancer. 

All the other diagnostics are just to confirm and document his initial assessment and specify exactly which cancer it is and what the exact best treatment plan is.

I saw the OP’s sclera and fingernails and know he has a cancer growing in his marriage. 

Other details will be helpful to narrow down the specific cancer and how to treat it best - but after going through marital chemo, radiation and surgery myself, I can see another marital cancer patient across the room.


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> The tyrant cannot be appeased, they only demand more.


I get that you're hurting, and I'm sorry for that, truly. That said, not every woman is a tyrant. Wow. You even godwinned the situation earlier, so it's clear that you're solely seeing this through a HIGHLY emotional lens. 

As Girl_power has tried to point out, the OP wants to fix what's broken. That takes two, despite some people always finding ways to blame it on the wife being a b*tch. Women don't just "turn b*tch" for fun. There are always reasons why things turn ugly. 

There are clearly problems. I'm not saying he should sit back and be abused, not at all. As I said earlier, he needs to find out what's really bothering her IF he really wants to fix things. He also needs to stop looking for trouble (what's it going to be today?). When you're just looking for something to pounce on, it makes every word she says into an attack, whether or not that's really the case. 

I also don't see her saying that maybe he should be married to someone else as some big threat. That wording makes it sound like desperation, as in she's feeling like she can't do anything right. She does need to learn to address that, instead. Divorce should never be brought up in an argument unless someone is serious about it, IMO.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> We regularly help care for a toddler and we are in our 60's. Yes its tiring at our age, but the blessings and joy they bring far outweigh that.


I'm sure whoever you're babysitting for greatly appreciates the break from it.


Girl_power said:


> I have seen that scenario too. And I’ve also seen men getting super upset over nothing at all. My ex MIL pointed to her husband in church (they were all mingling and he wasn’t near her). Anyway, she pointed with her index finger and when she got his attention she like called him over. At home he flipped out. Saying how disrespectful she was, and she was stunned and almost thought he was joking. He threatened to divorce her. Said she needed a lesson in respect.
> 
> I’ve seen men get mad for being asked to take the garbage out.
> 
> The OPs wife isn’t this bad though.


I've seen a lot of overly sensitive men too, mostly as a child because I have strenuously avoided then since. Men who think a woman should never tell them what to do, basically. My best friend's first husband was okay in a lot of ways and I liked him, but he would balk like a mule at helping clean up. They went to marriage counseling about it and the psychologist told her to stop telling him to do it because just out of stubbornness, he wouldn't comply, just on principle. So she tried that but he never did do it, so she divorced him for that and also balking about helping pay for "her" car insurance, the car she drove him to work 20 miles every day in. Bye bye. If you think you're too good for a marriage partnership, well, maybe you are, so go find out alone.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I'm sure whoever you're babysitting for greatly appreciates the break from it.
> 
> I've seen a lot of overly sensitive men too, mostly as a child because I have strenuously avoided then since. Men who think a woman should never tell them what to do, basically. My best friend's first husband was okay in a lot of ways and I liked him, but he would balk like a mule at helping clean up. They went to marriage counseling about it and the psychologist told her to stop telling him to do it because just out of stubbornness, he wouldn't comply, just on principle. So she tried that but he never did do it, so she divorced him for that and also balking about helping pay for "her" car insurance, the car she drove him to work 20 miles every day in. Bye bye. If you think you're too good for a marriage partnership, well, maybe you are, so go find out alone.


Yea it’s a difficult place as a women to be in. I don’t want to tell you what to do. I don’t want to be mean mommy. But if your not helping me, and I feel like I’m doing everything... my hands are tied. 

Some men like to be told what to do because they don’t know what needs to be done even if it’s staring them in the face. That’s how my brother is. Like a full garbage right there... he will walk by it when he is leaving for work, like come on your going outside anyway and his wife has the baby and it’s snowy and freezing outside. It can get frustrating real quick, but god forbid you say something then your a nag. Luckily my brother doesn’t take offense because he’s aware of him not knowing what needs to be done. But at a certain point his wife runs out of patience and talks to him like another child. It’s a tough situation all around.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> I get the difference. But this man wants to make his marriage work. And I am saying through my experience that she may not even know how offensive she is being because I know I didn’t.
> I just don’t like the idea of making her into this bad guy. I don’t think it’s ever a good idea to turn against your spouse, or think negative things of them, or plant those bad seeds. I think that if you want a good marriage you have to always give your partner the benefit of the doubt.
> You and I are in the same page, we just want to get there differently. He isn’t 100% innocent. He isn’t a victim. She isn’t this calculating manipulative terrible person.
> 
> ...


Actually, there ARE bullies. There are calculating, manipulative, hateful, horrible people. Some people end up married to these kinds. OP's wife might be one of them.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Livvie said:


> Actually, there ARE bullies. There are calculating, manipulative, hateful, horrible people. Some people end up married to these kinds. OP's wife might be one of them.


Yea he MIGHT be. But according to the information he has given us, we can’t draw these conclusions.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Crap I screwed up the quote some how. 

My response is down below. 



theloveofmylife said:


> I get that you're hurting, and I'm sorry for that, truly. That said, not every woman is a tyrant. Wow. You even godwinned the situation earlier, so it's clear that you're solely seeing this through a HIGHLY emotional lens.
> 
> As Girl_power has tried to point out, the OP wants to fix what's broken. That takes two, despite some people always finding ways to blame it on the wife being a b*tch. Women don't just "turn b*tch" for fun. There are always reasons why things turn ugly.
> 
> ...


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Torninhalf said:


> Who knows...maybe the OP will come back and clarify. 🤷🏼‍♀️


Why would he come back to this 8-page argumentative thread-jack? Poor guy, I know I wouldn't want to wade through it just to find a morsel of useful advice.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> I am saying there is not enough information from the OP to suggest she is as bad as your wife was.
> Not every case is as bad as yours.
> 
> @happyhusband0005 nipped his wife’s behavior in the butt quickly before it was a real issue.
> ...


Based on what @oldshirt has said his situation was VERY different from mine. My wife's issues were not a result of real animosity towards me but more a dissatisfaction with herself and major problems adjusting to life being Mom. @oldshirt 's description of his wife sounds much more like she just developed a severe animosity towards him. 

It's hard to say what the OP's situation really is. Is she more like my wife or more like @oldshirt 's. The fact the the OP reports things were great before kids and then suddenly changed after kids gives me hope she is more like mine. From what the OP has described it's not just the nit picking/nagging over little issues per say. Any one of those instances isolated and taken on their own, you're right not a big deal can easily written off to someone was just in a bad mood or the comment is misinterpreted. But the issue is the comments and nit picking are not isolated instances, I get the sense there is this general negative attitude with the comments and everything in between. Basically i would guess most of her communication with him is negative bordering on hostile. 

If @dreamingofthepast 's wife is more like mine he needs to makes space for a long and very deep talk. It needs to be very direct but with an attitude of I'm here to help. Professional help is also probably needed perhaps individual for her as well as couples. My wife was put on anti-anxiety meds for about a year when all this occurred. They need to make a plan together for getting out of the funk and work on following the plan like their lives depend on it. If his wife is like mine the first weeks and months will be difficult because putting a priority on the relationship over everything else will be a hard mental shift for her to make, she will have to let up on things which to her seem impossible to let go of. If this kind of situation goes on for too long both people will disconnect and coming back from that will be very difficult. 

OP if your wife is more like mine, as counter intuitive as it may sound, she needs you now more than ever. She needs you to take charge and snap her out of it, she needs you to find the therapist, psychiatrist, psychologist whatever to help her come out of it. It's not she needs to do this and she needs to do that, it we need to. This won't be fixed over night there will be a lot of step backwards as you move forward but you need to stick with it you need to call her out, sometimes you might notice she is in a serious funk getting really agitated and you'll have to just stop her from whatever she is doing, take over and send her off to take a bath with a glass of wine. You will probably get more annoyed at times that you feel like you need to coddle her at times but keep your eye on the prize. If things have not improved significantly in 4-6 months you might have to reevaluate. 

The goal for the first talk.

She needs to have no doubt that you are very serious that her behavior is not in the least bit acceptable.
She also needs to know that you are willing to do anything she needs from you the help her get better and you understand she is having a hard time and it is very normal, she's not broken.
She needs to recognize what she has been doing, be prepared with multiple specific examples the more specific the better. With my wife I told her there was this time, we had just come back from the store we were in the kitchen next to the sink I was wearing my yellow shorts, and I quoted her words with 99% accuracy. Keep a journal for a few days and break it out if needed.

This is what you have been doing, this is how it is making me feel, if this doesn't get fixed this is what will happen, I will do anything you need to help, heres how we should start, I will make appointments with x,y,z professionals. Remain strong but caring. The talk might not go well, it very likely could get ugly at times, she will probably say things like, you have no idea what i'm dealing with. You say I know it's hard I'm willing to help however you need me to, but your taking everything out on me and that is wrong, all I want to do is help, think Jerry Maguire "Help me help you" Once the initial talk is over immediately plan a date night, like right then pick up the phone and make a dinner reservation and start looking for a sitter. If thats too hard with Covid restrictions find the best restaurant with takeout, buy a couple great bottles of wine, setup a fancy at home dinner for once the kids are in bed. 

Now if your wife is more like Oldshirt's, thats a whole different ball game and from his experience your best hope seems to be an armistice.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> Yea it’s a difficult place as a women to be in. I don’t want to tell you what to do. I don’t want to be mean mommy. But if your not helping me, and I feel like I’m doing everything... my hands are tied.
> 
> Some men like to be told what to do because they don’t know what needs to be done even if it’s staring them in the face. That’s how my brother is. Like a full garbage right there... he will walk by it when he is leaving for work, like come on your going outside anyway and his wife has the baby and it’s snowy and freezing outside. It can get frustrating real quick, but god forbid you say something then your a nag. Luckily my brother doesn’t take offense because he’s aware of him not knowing what needs to be done. But at a certain point his wife runs out of patience and talks to him like another child. It’s a tough situation all around.


It's entitlement and fragile egos.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*No more threadjacks please, folks? Thank you.*


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Crap I screwed up the quote some how.
> 
> My response is down below.


No worries. Thank you for the response. 

Well said, and I agree:_ "He can do that compassionately and respectfully. But he has to stand up for himself and assert boundaries if he or the marriage is to survive." _


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## FarmTownGirl (Feb 18, 2021)

Girl_power said:


> Asking questions = being treated like dirt
> Asking questions = physical abuse


When someone is constantly asking you "why did you do that?" it morphs from innocent to rhetorical question pretty fast. If she's not trying to make the point that it was unnecessary for him to wash the lid, why does she *care* why he washed it? Why did you do this? Why did you do that? Such a curious woman... Give me a break.


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## FarmTownGirl (Feb 18, 2021)

Laurentium said:


> This is routine stuff for a marriage counsellor. We see this literally every day. Find a counsellor who specialises in relationship work (*not* a counsellor who does "everything" including relationships).


Would you counsel the questioner to stop harassing, or would you counsel the questioned to stop reading criticism into everything?

Also, what about the wife's default "then maybe I'm not the right wife for you."? Does that seem like a big warning sign or just pretty typical?

Thanks!


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## FarmTownGirl (Feb 18, 2021)

Girl_power said:


> ...What do you guys think he needs to do? Yell at her and tell her stop treating me like this!! Every time she nit picks? And do you guys actually think she will retreat and change her behavior because he yelled at her?...


I haven't read this whole thread but I haven't seen anyone suggest that. My advice was to try to talk to her when things are calm to get to the bottom of what is really bothering her. Because something obviously is. If she one time asked him why he washed a lid unnecessarily, that could be idle curiosity. But if it's true that this is a constant drip drip drip of passive aggressive criticism, either she just has a terrible personality or something is really eating at her.

I'm surprised more people haven't thought she might be having an affair because it seems like classic affair behavior to me for the one having the affair to find constant fault in their spouse in an attempt to justify their behavior.


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## FarmTownGirl (Feb 18, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> When you have experienced death by a thousand criticisms and put downs, it changes you. You aren’t the person you used to be.


Your whole post made me feel very sad for you, what you went through, and how your marriage must feel unsafe to both of you now.

But I have a sincere question as a woman who feels very frustrated with the man in my life sometimes.

When your ex was so compulsively negative, did you ever attempt to find out what was wrong? What was going on in her head and feelings?

I'm very curious about this from a man's perspective because of something I'm going through in my relationship right now.


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