# Tipping Point



## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Ugh this is a mess and I could really use some advice. Here's the deal:

Wife and I have been married for 13 months. Had some brutal near divorce type fights in our first 6 months, struggled through financial issues, family issues, career issues, etc. The last 6 months, since we've bought a house together have been relatively stable. We had one or two fights where it felt like it all came crashing down, but we managed to pick it back up and recover quickly. We've been much more understanding and less nasty when fighting.....until last night (which I'll get to)

I work full time and go to MBA school part time. I make about 85k and provide 98% of the income. She recently quit her job and went back to school to push it full tilt and get her undergrad. She works about 8 hrs a week for a little extra income and we took on a renter so we could afford our mortgage. All that has actually been going pretty well.

Here's doomsday:
My mother planned a get-together with life long family friends (who are all now married or engaged). She planned it 3 months out and it was also around her b-day. So about 2 hours before we leave my wife tells me she doesn't want to go. I assumed or thought it was because she didn't have her school work done, because she was stressing about losing the weekend with upcoming exams. She tells me last night that it was because I was being mean to her that day. I got really upset when she told me she wanted to bail and wouldn't talk to her. She sat on her ass the last hour and did nothing or said nothing so I just left, without a word. I didnt call all weekend (got a nasty text message bringing up something about porn - irrelevant and saying I don't deserve all the love she gives me) and come home ready to tell her we need a break and that I was incredibly hurt by the fact that she abandoned me and that there's nothing more important than family. I expected an appology, but turns out she was wanting an appology from me, gets all over me for leaving without discussing it, calls me a jerk, says I don't love her, says she's in the same position as me - having serious doubts about our marriage.

I get really upset and tell her that I feel like I'm being used and feel like I'm with her because I love her and she's with me because she needs me. Well, that set her off into a tantrum of throwing her rings, screaming at the top of her lungs at me, balling, throwing up - saying I don't love her, etc. etc. She threatens that she will never set foot in the house again and that she hates me - runs off to her parents house.

sorry for being long-winded, there's more to it but that should be a start without scaring you away. Thanks for taking the time to read carefully and respond.


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

and...she wrote me an e-mail this morning saying

"I spoke with one of my professors extendedly today about what has happened to us. She advised that I come to the house and stay there as much as that will hurt me, since legally and morally it belongs to both of us (eventhough you only have your name on it) I will not leave the house unless I have a court order."

what the f is she taking advice from a random professor for? she's a global affairs major, not a physchologist.


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

random professor, pschologist, or confidant?

telling her what she wants to hear?

porn? irrelavant? i don't think so.


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

your simply posting questions that are vague, what is that supposed to do? or how am i supposed to answer that?


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

I think I'm going to stay at my sisters for a while, let her be alone in the condo, I think if we are around each other it will reduce the chance we have to repair things. this sucks big time, it's hard to focus on anything


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## MEM (Sep 15, 2008)

It sounds as though you two could use a break. Your wife seems to be under a great deal of pressure from school, I wonder if she is using you as her scapegoat?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Theerer3-

In as much as you reacted badly to voivod's comments, I doubt you would like what I have to say. But to put it gently, I see issues on both sides.


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## NikiVicious (Oct 2, 2008)

Both of you are not communicating with each other well. You are both throwing blows and taking punches. I am assuming you both have stong feelings on this. If you want to get to the bottem of this and make it work. Both of you have to be willing to get to the SOURCE of each of your feelings about each other. I just read draconis' thesis on communication. I recommend you do to! 

Thesis on Communication by dracs


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

MarkTwain - perhaps my tone came off wrong. I was simply very confused by what voivod wrote.

I honestly want to hear what you have to say, regardless. I'm not on here looking for reassurance that I'm great, rather collective unbiased (if that's possible) opinions and advice from which the advice that seems to be the majority is probably good advice.

So please do share, thanks in advance. I'm aware I have issues as well so don't be bashful in bashing, just be honest.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

First i can tell you that porn is a huge issue. Don't sweep that under the carpet or think she dons't have a point. Look at all the marriage on here that have ended BECAUSE of porn. 170 threads.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/2116-husband-looking-porn.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/men-s-clubhouse/2239-help-new-husband-porn.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/relationships-addiction/2004-evils-porn-thesis.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/2274-porn-question-ladies.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...e-up-porn-but-wants-me-give-up-boyfriend.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/2430-sexual-addict-comes-clean.html

Just to name a few.

draconis


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Theerer3 said:


> So please do share, thanks in advance. I'm aware I have issues as well so don't be bashful in bashing, just be honest.


Be careful what you wish for 

First and foremost, you need to know that in-laws are one of the biggest danger a marriage can face. I always say, when people get married, they should first divorce their parents. There is probably some issue with your wife and your mother that is festering there...

Second, the communication skills you and your wife have are next to unserviceable. You can't make her improve her skills, but you sure can work on yours.

Before it is too late, say sorry -buy her flowers- the works. If I were you, I would go right over the top. If she rejects your peace offering the first time, do it again. Do it until she kills you.

Once you have her attention, you tell her that you genuinely had no idea how unhappy she was, and you want to hear the whole story. Then you have to listen to every damn word she says even if you think she is on another planet. Do not attempt to defend yourself.

Now I'm not saying in any of this that you are wrong and she is right. I am merely telling you the fastest way to calm her down. So that after that, you have even the possibility of communication. It has taken me years to be able to do this technique, but it works flawlessly if you do it with sincerity.

If you are a hot-head like I used to be, you are not going to be able to pull this off, so chill.


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Thanks guys.......so to not throw the porn under the rug.

Porn was something through college I looked at just about everyday - and so did just about every other guy I knew. It continued through to our marriage, but it has severly slowed down. I look at it 1-2 times per week, 3 at the most. The 2 and 3 x per week are usually because i'm mad at her - I don't know if it's like my crutch, but when she pisses me off or is being crazily insecure, the urge for me to look at that stuff goes through the roof. I've spoken to her about it multiple times, i know she hates it - when i accidentally leave it on the comp (have done that twice), but she origianlly thought its what affected our sex life - in the beginning we were only having sex like once a week, and she chalked it up to porn, but little did she know it was because i was so upset and stressed.

She has even told me to go look at it and masturbate when she was on the dl and I was heading out of town for the weekend. she's also mentioned watching it with me, and watched some once herself. so i assumed she was okay with it - apparently not.

I would totally ditch the porn (i have tried) but there's things I would like her to do - like exercise. she simply doesn't do it and won't change for me, so I figure why should i stop looking at porn then? Stupid I know, but that's how i rationalize that i should continue to do it.

So you guys don't think i should stay at my sisters? My best friend is telling me i should give it some space and time for a while until we can talk. But then again he isn't married, nor has been.


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## NikiVicious (Oct 2, 2008)

Theerer3,

you and I are close in age. My husband has been known to look at porn, get it on his phone and share it with his friends. He even takes pictures of girls in bikini's at the pool. (Wow when i write that that makes him sound creepy). He doesn't read magazines, but just looks on the computer and the cell phone. It has started to bother me now that all the other things in my marriage are affected (we are on the rocks, but not necessarily because of porn). I guess its kind of a gateway drug to other problems. *Porn can make a girl feel insecure. * Girls usually need to be reached emotionally/mentally then physically to be aroused. 

Back to it being a "gateway drug" or "vice"...let me explain. Her feeling insecure around you. Then you say: You will quit the porn if she exercizes (That would hurt most any girls feelings) Telling you that her feelings may be difficult for her. So she tells a confidant to tell (You need to be her confidant!). You have to be willing to listen to her and accept her feelings. She has to be willing and able to do the same. I already see the porn thing being a problem in your relationship. In some relationships it is not. In mine, it wasn't until a couple years ago. That was right around the time I had my daughter.


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

I haven't said to her "if you start exercising, I'll quit looking at porn", but I tell myself in my head, if she doesn't make any effort to change things about herself that bother me, why should I keep trying to quit looking at porn (I bought software to monitor and e-mail her when I looked at websites, didn't look at or even have the urge to look at porn for a solid 30+ days). The wheels eventually came off because I felt like the only one trying to change his or herself to please the other........

I don't take pictures of girls at the pool and only use the computer. I don't go to strip clubs or anything like that or ever pay for any porn. I know it does make her very insecure - she's that way in general, but again to my point why should I bend over backwards to quit something I enjoy from time to time - it's not like I get all over her when she does her guity pleasures - they just happen to be food.

Why do you think porn made you insecure finally? We don't have children, not sure if that would be a catalyst for me to quit it - I don't feel it's right to have porn around young children so I think that would do it. But again, we're no where near having children, thankfully.


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## TD Powers (Oct 6, 2008)

It seems that the two of you have a little competition going. You do this and then I'll do that.

Now is the time to start from the beginning, say that you are sorry about the way things have been going lately and that you feel that you have to learn to better communicate with her.

Then suggest that you would like to hear what has made her so upset and let her do the talking. 

Listen and ask some gentle questions without being condescending. Show that you care and that your relationship really is important to you. Then have her make some suggestions about how to improve your relationship.

Start communicating, not only talking but mostly listening while giving her 100% of your attention.


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

nikivicious - also to maybe help you. I know that I look at porn (and maybe why your hubby takes pics at the pool) because i feel like I missed out on being "naughty" when i was younger b/c i was also focused on school and sports, so i think this is a driver for me to look at other women, as soon as i'm "done" i have zero desire left for a while - it's weird but maybe your hubby has some of the same issues?


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## NikiVicious (Oct 2, 2008)

I guess it only bothered me right after I had my daughter and in late pregnancy. Now i'm back in shape, and am back down to my orrig. body weight so i don't feel insecure anymore about porn in particular. Believe me porn is the LEAST of my problems with my husband. Sex has never really been an issue for us until last month when we seperated. We are seperated now. He will have to work on himself and other issues we are having. We are having completely different issues. 

I have friends that DO NOT tolerate their partners viewing porn. I know people where both are comfortable with it. When it comes to your relationship...since she has a problem with it, I forsee problems. Do you see what I mean?


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Yeah, I do see what you mean, thanks for driving it home, and yes from your posts, I think porn is not a top priority for you. Best of luck to you.

I think we're going to try to get a good counselor. We have lots of issues, some I haven't even touched on. Good thing, I guess, is that none of the issues are no-go's like drugs, infidelity, etc.

Perhaps I won't be tempted to look at porn for a while......thanks.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

hi theeter,

I have to tell you I had a good laugh reading your first post. OK, i know its NOT funny. But its exactly where my H and i were three years ago. 

If its any constellation we are doing much better now. Of course, i still do not have a ring and wont get one until im fairly certain i wont chuck it again 

You're going to have to decide what you want to keep, your pride or your wife (hard choice at this point i know). It takes a lot of work but it is well worth it.


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

All, thanks for your advice. My sister gave me some good advice so here's an update.

I came home and told her that a while back we agreed to never leave each other or leave the house no matter how tough it got. I told her that I wanted her to be completely clear that the only reason I was considering staying somewhere else for a while is because I thought it might be better for us in the long run. I told her I really don't know what to do and I've thought of a thousand things, but all of them are trying to do the same thing. I don't want to leave you, I don't care if we agree to not talk for a while, but I want to be around you and want you to know that I'm here whenever we both are ready to work this out. I told her that I respected her opinion and wanted to know what she thought.

She did not answer or talk to me at all- or look me in the eye, even after I asked her to look at me. The only thing she said, after I asked her opinion is "you can do whatever you want" and I said then I'm going to stay.

UGH, I hope this gets better soon.


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

ltseng - so please elaborate a bit on what happened to you and your hubby, how old were you, etc. and how the heck you worked it through - and how long it took. did you both realize you were wrong or him only? did you see a counselor?


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

THEERER---
sorry, here's what i was driving at:

1) random professor, pschologist, or confidant?

the professor was acting as confidant, as in confide. this person alowed your wife to do something that you apparently haven't. a clear path to communicate.

2) telling her what she wants to hear?
more of the same, in an insiduious way.

3) porn? irrelavant? i don't think so.
your cavalier attitude about porn is not one, i'll bet, that your wife has. she doesn't take it as irrelevant. that's all i'm saying. i get bent when a poster isn't clear, so i understand your frustration with me. sorry.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Theerer3 said:


> ltseng - so please elaborate a bit on what happened to you and your hubby, how old were you, etc. and how the heck you worked it through - and how long it took. did you both realize you were wrong or him only? did you see a counselor?


I've been going through this for three years now. it started when i was 23 he was 24. Its been shear hell. Some days I honestly do not know what keeps us together. Most of our issues revolved around porn, but there are many, many other issues attached. 

I read everything i could get my hands on. I really wanted to understand what was going on. I went to counseling and so did he. The books on boundaries helped the most in my situation. 

MT's advice on how to talk to her is really good. that has been half the battle between my H and I. It has been really hard for him to let go of his pride and say sorry to me whenever i need to hear it. He usually shuts off and just shuts me out. He's had to learn not to do that. 

Of course at first i thought everything was entirely his fault, which im sure is what your wife is thinking. I'm learning that a lot of it was my fault, too. Things could have gone much smoother had I handled things better. 

Mostly just be patient with yourself and her and LEARN. Read everything you can. Im not a huge advocate of counseling but its OK. I use it in conjunction with a lot of other things.


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Gotchya, so when you say pretty much everything revolves around porn - it must be pretty intense or perhaps weird porn?? I have limited and at times cut myself off from it. I've considered buying anit-porn software that would e-mail my wife whatever I look at that might be of that nature....but haven't pulled the trigger. I don't want to hurt our relationship, but again from time to time I do get the urge to look at it, or when we can't have sex, it's just quick and easy......but then again there has been times she's even told me to go look at it and get the job done, so maybe it's just that I'm not talking to her about it well enough. The urge for me to look at it has declined a lot since our marriage and it doesn't excite me the way it used to - I just need visual stimulation


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## NikiVicious (Oct 2, 2008)

I think for a guy sex is mostly visual and physical (guys please correct me if im wrong). For a girl you have to reach them emotionally/mentally before she will give physically and visual. 

if she is detached emotionally and mentally from your marriage, it may be hard for her to show you how much she likes it in bed. just an idea.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Theerer3 said:


> Gotchya, so when you say pretty much everything revolves around porn - it must be pretty intense or perhaps weird porn??


lol...no. It was just the regular kind. 



Theerer3 said:


> but then again there has been times she's even told me to go look at it and get the job done


Ya i told him this in the beginning, too. In fact, in the beginning I didnt know what to think. I was willing to try it with him or do other things. I think part of me wanted to be OK with it because on a logical level i really was. But on an emotional level i was not. 

The two of you will have to sit down and decide what is OK and what is not. but dont be surprised if she doesnt know, and still gets upset anyway. its a hard thing for a women to understand.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

NikiVicious said:


> I think for a guy sex is mostly visual and physical (guys please correct me if im wrong). For a girl you have to reach them emotionally/mentally before she will give physically and visual.
> 
> .


You are right.

draconis


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Thanks for the advice regarding the porn, I think if I better understand her position and feelings on it, it will help me get stop or do what i need to do - but it's very difficult to see her incredibly upset and angry about it one day and two weeks later not concerned at all about it and asking me to use it....

Aside from that, do you all think I did the right thing by committing to stay by her side through the hard times and wait until she's ready to talk? Do you all think this really is that bad of a situation? I have already realized how out of proportion we both blew things over a simple mis-que, but she has not yet.

I came home last night and founder her taking a bubble bath, drinking lots of wine and eating chocolate. You think this is her way of clearing her mind or trying to relax? Still no words from her, we watched the debate together but no words.......thoughts on what she's thinking?


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Theerer3 said:


> Do you all think this really is that bad of a situation? I have already realized how out of proportion we both blew things over a simple mis-que, but she has not yet.


This attitude will be your demise. You've got to change the way you see this. If you keep thinking she's blowing this out of proportion nothing will get resolved.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

Normally that is a sexual thing, bubble bath, wine and chocolate. Maybe she was spoiling herelf. You have to communicate with her to know for sure.

draconis


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## Ladyinblue (Sep 18, 2008)

It sounds like there is some emotional abuse and codependency going on here to me.Its funny- i actually told my husband the same exact things a while back! How i felt i was being used and he's only with me because he "needs me".So you may already have "some insight" into whats really going on beneath the surface.I strongly recommend you start looking for a Good marriage counselor ASAP if you want to work on your marriage.I don't know what the issues are on both sides but if the marriage counselor is any good-they will recommend individual sessions for both of you before wanting to work with you as a couple.I had to deal with a lot of the issues you are describing as well.Living with my husband began to feel like i was walking on eggshells.After the first year of marriage,the intense arguments,the mixed messages and the constant "questioning my self" became the norm.We also struggled through ALOT of financial issues, family issues right from the start-which took a huge toll on our marriage.

The hardest part for me was having to live with the constant defensiveness and paranoia, falsely- accusing me and refusing to acknowledge my goodness and sincerity. I was determined to prove my worth, to make him see and admit that I was right and he was wrong, that i was good and he had been bad, that i had been a saint and he had been a devil, and that he owed me the return of all the love and loyalty i had invested in him. If i did or ever said anything to make him mad, that would only give him a reason to defend himself and say that's proof that i am not a loving, good- hearted person.I couldn't give him any real grounds to base his accusations on. So i always tried to prove myself worthy, noble, honorable. I was driven to give, do, be, and sacrifice anything in order to prove my worth. But didn't realize i lost my self-worth in trying to prove my worth to him. Because it was never enough and we are human -- we make mistakes, we sometimes blow up from all the tension, and these things were unforgivable to him. He just waited and watched for me to slip up and make one little mistake or to show one negative quality so he could swoop down and devour me with accusations, insults, mockery, and blame. Unknowingly, i was selling my soul in becoming more or less than human, disallowing my human needs and emotions. Only he had the right to "his feelings and needs" while i did not have the freedom to feel any differently than what he wanted me to feel or to feel nothing at all.You see, my husband had a very controlling and manipulative mother who continued to be intrusive and controlling in his life even into his adult years.He was married once before and describes it as having been chaotic and unstable the entire time.She had multiple affairs,constantly fought with his Mother and eventually walked out on him,leaving him alone to raise their children.When we were dating,I knew my husband had "some issues" with trust and control that stemmed from childhood, but it wasn't after we were married that i began to realize the extent of the deeper "issues" he had.Therapy really helped us both gain insight into his behaviors and my responses.Our arguments were always very emotionally charged and he would always end up yelling to the point of throwing up.I also learned that my husband was the victim of a lifetime of emotional,verbal and physical abuse inflicted by both his parents.He then married his x wife in order to get away from them but it turned out that she too, eventually became emotionally and verbally abusive toward him (along with his mother') throughout their 10 year marriage.As a result, he still felt like a "victim"-and deep down he continued to feel the anger, helplessness,unlovable,anxious,
distrustful and utterly disconnected to others, all alone in the world.

*I get really upset and tell her that I feel like I'm being used and feel like I'm with her because I love her and she's with me because she needs me. Well, that set her off into a tantrum of throwing her rings, screaming at the top of her lungs at me, balling, throwing up - saying I don't love her, etc. etc. She threatens that she will never set foot in the house again and that she hates me - runs off to her parents house.*

My husband would do this "all the TIME" except he would never leave-i would.I would tell him each time that his behavior was totally unacceptable and he needed to show me respect by talking to me instead of treating me as if i were a piece of **** every time he got mad.I set boundaries and stuck to them.Each time he did it- i would leave and stay over my mom's house.By you staying, you only re-enforce that kind of a response.Don't allow her to manipulate you into believing that her immature behavior is justified because of "how you made her feel".Don't fall into the trap of allowing her to use her "feelings" as an excuse to blame and belittle you.... That's the whole of their love-hate relationships. Others are seen as completely responsible for the way they feel. If you make him feel good, he loves you. If he feels bad, it's your fault and he hates you. They expect their partners and children to run to them with open arms, lavishing them with love, devotion and praise, making them feel like a god, and they are to treat him this way regardless of how they behave, never asking nor needing anything in return. Sometimes, they offer attention and affection, which we are so hungry for that we rejoice and feel satisfied. Our hopes are renewed with the vision of how it could be, having been given just a taste. Pathetically enough, we have been reduced to the family dog, sitting at the master's feet, waiting for crumbs to fall to the floor. We are so hungry for love that we thankfully lap up any crumbs we can get and hope for more.This is their control. We are starving to death, managing to survive on the few crumbs they offer, while awaiting the grand feast they continually promise.They believe everyone is out only for themselves, ready to destroy anything in their paths, just as they are. Through their belief that the whole of life and humanity revolves around them, we get sucked into that madness and our lives center around them, trying desperately to prove our sincerity, to earn their trust and acceptance. But they see our attempts at emotional intimacy and our efforts to prove ourselves trustworthy as calculated, deceptive tactics to penetrate their fort and destroy them.The closer we try to get to them, the more layers they add to their walls of defense, lashing out and pushing us further and further away. I was raised by a mother who stayed home with the children, who cooked and cleaned, and spent her life being of service to her husband and family. I was so very fortunate to be raised by loving,caring parents, who taught me to be kind, compassionate, loving,and loyal.I am so grateful that I was taught these morals and values growing up, but they were also a great handicap to me, making me a prime candidate for emotionally abusive relationships. Emotional Abusers intuitively seek out partners who are kind, loyal, sympathetic, and understanding, because they can use these assets against us, until they become our vices. They tell us the heart-wrenching stories of being abused, abandoned, unloved, and we, the care-takers, feel their pain and instinctively want to love their wounds away. We try so desperately to show them the love and devotion they were deprived of, to prove that we are trust-worthy, where others weren't, that are sincere, where others were deceptive.The more we are falsely accused of being liars, and manipulators, the more we double our efforts to prove that we will never leave them nor forsake them. I mean, we understand that they are only striking out at us because of their own fears and self-hatred, and more than ever, we feel the call to love them.So we become their god, feeling completely responsible for their well-being, even for their very lives, as they tell us over and over that they cannot live without us, if we leave. They become the most dependent, while we become dependent upon the feeling of being needed, of being so important to someone else's life.In other words, codependency in a nutshell.

I can't offer you any hope whatsoever that your wife will ever change and become the woman you believe she is in her heart. Whether that woman actually exists or not has nothing to do with you-its up to her to find out what kind of person she wants to be. Every human being is entitled to a life free of fear and instability.But I can't tell you when or how to leave, and it will do you no good to condemn yourself for staying if you choose to stay.No, we are not weak and spineless. Far from it! We have the strength and fortitude of a dozen people.We have to, in order to do all that we do in any given day. Those of us who have lived in abusive marriages are not victims nor antagonizers, and neither are we inadequate wives or husbands. We have done our part to make the marriage work, but it cannot be done alone. If it were possible for only one spouse to create a successful marriage, we are the ones who could do it, as we have carried full responsibility for the quality and content of the relationship, as well as obligations to the children, family members, friends, and finances. We have done everything in our knowledge and power to be the best we know how to be, and we are the ones who have fulfilled our marriage vows.We have paid a debt, for crimes we never committed, and continue to pay over and over through the stigmas and misconceptions of our society.Ask yourself each morning, "Am I going to stay or am I going to leave?" If you are ready to leave, something happens and you will just go without having to debate it in your mind. You will just know when the love is gone. If your answer is that there is still love there and you're going to stay one more day, then it is your responsibility to make the best of the situation by gaining awareness into what part you are playing and what changes you really "need to make".Hopefully your determination will inspire her to begin to make those changes as well for herself.I made that choice and started setting healthy boundaries for myself and stopped focusing all of my attention on him for once. 

My husband has made many many changes,and he is content with having made them and our marriage has really improved because of it.In our last session he had to tell me why he felt he loved me and he told me that i was a beautiful person inside and I've showed him what love really is and feels like for the first time in his life.He said he felt like the luckiest man in the world to have found someone as kind and loving as me and my humility was one of my most admirable qualities..and one that he never thought was "real" or anyone could possess it.He said that my love and support is something amazing because he had never felt that before and being with me made him want to be a better person because he wants to be the best person he could be,He told me he felt passion and excitement when i entered the room.He told me he missed me and my touch when i wasn't near him.He also said that he wasn't use to sharing intimate feelings, hopes and dreams with anyone but he felt safe to do it with me.(definitely did wonders for my ego i gotta admit)He still has a lot of the feelings of "loneliness and being alone and rejection"...and we have began to address those issues in therapy.I have seen him genuinely try very hard to make changes in the past, and his willingness to keep trying is why i still have love for him and continue to help him be the kind of person he wants to be.But I still know who i am and i am careful to keep my own identity separate from his so it doesn't get in the way of me working on my personal issues as well.I know now that I will not allow myself to carry the full weight of the relationship again-ever.....


(This is my perspective from my own personal experience-and i know that every person's is different but since i saw some similarities i thought i would share)

LadyINBLUE


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Yikes that's a lot to digest. Have you made strides yourself? Your statements seem like the husband was the only one making the mistakes - I've made many mistakes, in particular mis-interpreting the reason my wife didn't want to accompany to my parents, which started the entire fight.

I don't want to reinforce my wife's behavior - especially the part where she was screaming at the top of her lungs at me. I guess that is considered verbal abuse? It will probably haunt me for a while that's for sure.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Theerer3 said:


> I don't want to reinforce my wife's behavior - especially the part where she was screaming at the top of her lungs at me. I guess that is considered verbal abuse? It will probably haunt me for a while that's for sure.


I think you should let her know. My H is suffering b/c i did this to him. Make sure you let her know you want to talk to her, but will have to leave if she escalates. It'll piss her off at first, but if you follow through in a loving way, she'll stop.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

I don't believe any relationship is one sided. Everyone needs to work on the relationship for it to work and no one person is at fault if it falls apart.



> I think you should let her know. My H is suffering b/c i did this to him. Make sure you let her know you want to talk to her, but will have to leave if she escalates. It'll piss her off at first, but if you follow through in a loving way, she'll stop.


A very wise thought on how to handle things.

draconis


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

draconis - you are in your second marriage correct? did you (in which marriages) think about dating other women? This is something that I think about, and I don't know if it's a reaction of me being insecure or scared about my marriage's stability, but I find myself checking girls out, and there's a girl on my softball team that has been flirting with me and I find it refreshing and fun, but I have no clue if this means I'm just insecure and scared right now or if it means maybe I shouldn't be married???


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

Theerer3 said:


> draconis - you are in your second marriage correct? did you (in which marriages) think about dating other women? This is something that I think about, and I don't know if it's a reaction of me being insecure or scared about my marriage's stability, but I find myself checking girls out, and there's a girl on my softball team that has been flirting with me and I find it refreshing and fun, but I have no clue if this means I'm just insecure and scared right now or if it means maybe I shouldn't be married???


Yes I am on my second marriage. In part it ended because I was working 100+ hour weeks and she got lonely and cheated on me. There was no way to fix the marriage.

After we seperated I never even dated unil the divorce was final. It wasn't a thought to look or want other women, I had pride knowing I had never cheated nor would I even tempt myself.

I think everyone is different. If you are thinking of other women you need to ask yourself why and what effect that is having by not focusing on the marriage.

draconis


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## Ladyinblue (Sep 18, 2008)

I agree that you were assuming and jumping to conclusions in that situation.The problem with jumping to conclusions is that you think you know the truth without identifying the unverified facts or examining the decision process. -and it isn't a problem when you jump to the right conclusions, but when you jump to the wrong conclusions without identifying and communicating your assumptions, it's going to always end up hurting you in the long run.Its all part of the way we communicate with each other really.I'm definitely not innocent,i accept my responsibility in the great scheme of things.We both came from families that habitually used verbal abuse when arguing,and my husband's family was emotionally and physically abusive as well so he has a lot of other issues i don't have due to that.Physical abuse is easily identified but verbal abuse is totally different.Because the damage is internal, and there are no physical bruises or scars, just a wounded spirit and sense of self-esteem.

Here are some common signs:
* Being called names by your spouse. Any negative form of name calling is unacceptable. If you feel that it is a put down, then it most likely is. There are names that are obvious and, without question abusive. Then there are the covert, veiled attempts to put a spouse down that are harder to identify. Verbal abusers love to use constructive criticism to beat a spouse down. If your spouse is constantly criticizing you, “for your own good,” be careful. This is the most insidious form of verbal abuse.

* Using words to shame. Critical, sarcastic, mocking words meant to put you down either alone or in front of other people.

* Yelling, swearing and screaming. I call this the “walking on eggs shells” syndrome because you are living with someone who goes verbally ballistic for very little cause.

* Using threats to intimidate. No threat should be taken likely, even if your spouse tells you they are only joking, especially if it causes you to change behaviors or to feel on guard in the relationship.

* Blaming the victim. Your spouse blows his/her top and then blames you for their actions and behavior. If you were only perfect they wouldn’t lose control!

* Your feelings are dismissed. Your spouse refuses to discuss issues that upset you. They avoid discussion of any topic where they might have to take responsibility for their actions or words.

* You often wonder why you feel so bad. You bury your feelings, walk on egg shells and work so hard at keeping the peace that every day becomes an emotional chore. You feel depressed and have even wondered if you are crazy.

* Manipulating your actions. The persistent and intense use of threatening words to get you to do something or act in a way you find uncomfortable. This form of verbal abuse is common at the end of a marriage. If your spouse doesn’t want a divorce they will say whatever it takes to play on your emotions, to get you to stay in the marriage. All in an attempt to get you to comply with their desires, regardless of what is best for you as an individual.

I guess it was just kind of natural for both of us to communicate in this dysfunctional way.I would actively engage in conflicts with my husband and call him names or threaten to leave him or find someone else who wasn't "crazy"...( wow that was so arrogant of me-yikes) But he continued to habitually, yell and throw things when he got angry, totally dismissing my feelings (because i had told him repeatedly that his yelling made me feel threatened).Whenever i would approach him top talk it would always escalate into a Huge fight so i eventually just stop trying to communicate altogether because i began to see myself and my needs as unimportant to him, of little consequence and irrelevant.From that point on i just totally emotionally disconnected myself from the relationship and lost all interest in our marriage.Things got really bad to the point where i started to feel depressed and that was when i decided to seek counseling.It helped me gain insight into my own issues and behaviors that i needed to change.It also helped me recognize how i too was being verbally abusive and trying to control the relationship.Self-assessment was a very important step to save my marriage. I was able to think about my mistakes and develop an improvement in my own behavior.I learned that if my spouse became angry- to stay calm, walk away and not give him what he wanted…a reaction from me.I let him know how hurtful his words were and discussed with him the fact that it was unacceptable to me.I set boundaries on what i would and would not accept from him.I also asked that we both go to marriage counseling and work on communicating more effectively.

He began to make many changes, and put a lot of effort into controlling his angry outbursts and developed healthier coping skills.After a few months, he was the one who began redirecting me when i would start to raise my voice! !!!He would try to communicate and talk calmly to me but i didn't want to anymore,so i would either turn things into a huge argument or just leave for the night.The truth is,I was just too damm angry and resentful deep down because of all the effort i had put into our marriage from the beginning so i just withdrew from the relationship altogether even though i knew he was the one trying so hard this time.(crazy isn't it?) After months of trying, my husband then began to have an emotional affair which i discovered that lasted a little over a month-he claims it had started out innocently because he was looking for someone to talk to and her willingness to listen to him and talk to him filled a void.Deep down i knew i had contributed to it happening (by my many rejections and pulling away when he was making a genuine effort to express his feelings).I just couldn't help but feel completely hopeless and blamed him for screwing up our marriage beyond repair.Our marriage had hit rock bottom and i couldn't help but feel like i had contributed so much to my own misery.I got to the point where i started to feel this deep depression coming on and before that could happen i decided to seek counseling again.This time it has helped me gain insight into my own fears and the behaviors that prevented me from communicating with my husband. I was able to think about my mistakes and understand why i was behaving the way i had been.As well as how to avoid doing those things that could hurt my partner in the future..I know that If i want to be a good partner, i need to have a capacity to listen to my partner and understand him.We should both be able to keep calm and talk through any problem and when my partner is talking with me, i should ask the related questions and clarify all doubts instead of making assumptions or jumping to conclusions.


I think we have reached a point now where we are "Both" determined to give our all to our marriage for a designated period of time as opposed to just one of us trying and the other withdrawing.So far everything has been going really great! And most importantly we are happy to be around each other again.That is a feeling i never thought we'd be able to recapture.We are both making our best effort and really trying to improve our marriage. If at the end of this time it still feels hopeless, we will both have a feeling of closure knowing we did our best to save the marriage.Continue to act proactive and change your routine and behavior patterns.My advice to you at this point is to -"Openly and lovingly confront your partner and tell her that you love her and you are worried about where the marriage is heading and so you want to work on your marriage but you can't make it work on your own.Tell her you want her to be Open and honest with you, and ask her if this is what she wants too...(if she starts to defend herself or blame you, just calmly remind her that its not about blaming her or who's at fault-because that will only lead to an argument and not solve anything. You don't want to argue,you want to TALK) Just stay on the topic and if she tries to change it- keep bringing it up again.(woops! another one of my long responses-sorry guys )

LadyINBLUE


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## Ladyinblue (Sep 18, 2008)

It wasn't a thought to look or want other women, I had pride knowing I had never cheated nor would I even tempt myself.

"Happiness is that state of consciousness which proceeds from the achievement of one's values" 

You are a pretty awesome person Draconis ! 
:smthumbup:

LadyInBLUE


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Theerer3 said:


> I find myself checking girls out, and there's a girl on my softball team that has been flirting with me and I find it refreshing and fun


This pisses me off to no end. Stop chasing after what 'feels good', start being a man and fix your marriage.


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

I'm thinking about going to counseling to sort these feelings out. It's much easier said then done to just "fix" a marriage. It takes two people, I'm on here trying to sort my feelings out, admit my mistakes, etc. and I've already appologized to my wife - who, not to mention SCREAMED violently at me, threw things, threatened to kill herself, ran off to her parents (we agreed before when we had a bad fight to, no matter what happened we would not leave the household - and she did). Not to mention dropping f-bombs, thorwing up, etc. while i remained somewhat calm. I appologized and she hasn't spoken to me whatsoever. This is my fault, but it's also hers and she needs to own up to her own mistakes, I'm not going to beg for her forgiveness unless she recognizes her own mistakes. I'm sorry but to me, marriage is 50/50. I have zero expectations that she should have to give more than 50% in this, but I'm sure as hell not giving 100% when she's giving 0%


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

Theerer3 said:


> I'm thinking about going to counseling to sort these feelings out. It's much easier said then done to just "fix" a marriage. It takes two people, I'm on here trying to sort my feelings out, admit my mistakes, etc. and I've already appologized to my wife - who, not to mention SCREAMED violently at me, threw things, threatened to kill herself, ran off to her parents (we agreed before when we had a bad fight to, no matter what happened we would not leave the household - and she did). Not to mention dropping f-bombs, thorwing up, etc. while i remained somewhat calm. I appologized and she hasn't spoken to me whatsoever. This is my fault, but it's also hers and she needs to own up to her own mistakes, I'm not going to beg for her forgiveness unless she recognizes her own mistakes. I'm sorry but to me, marriage is 50/50. I have zero expectations that she should have to give more than 50% in this, but I'm sure as hell not giving 100% when she's giving 0%


Then give up, throw it away....

draconis


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

theerer--

you want it to work? then you WILL give 100% while she gives none...you WILL beg forgiveness regardless of what she does...you WILL maintain a level of honor towards her regardless of how many f-bombs she lobs...there are a lot of good people here trying to help you keep it together...their advice comes from experience...my hope for you is you realize it IS worth saving and you WILL do whatever it takes. BE A FREAKIN SUCCESS STORY FOR US, OK!!!


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Thanks all, perhaps that one message rubbed me the wrong way. We ended up talking last night. She's still very hurt, but we're working to communicate better, we both appologized for the things we did and both admitted it went way to far over something was so avoidable. It's going to take some time to mend but I think we'll get there, the key is to improve our communication and not let something like this happen again.

Cheers to a potential success story!


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## believer (Apr 22, 2008)

Communication, communication, communication - or lack of it in this case. 
Have you thought about seeking couples counseling to help get you started with opening the lines of communication? A therapist can help you get to the root of your problems & offer some solutions. This may be helpful especially for your wife if she is afraid of how you might react - having someone else there might make it easier for her to open up. 
someone mentioned earlier that you can't make her improve her communication skills but this might be an option. If she is not open to this - you can seek counseling on your own or take steps to improve yourself. And take a look at what are the problems in your relationship ( both from your & her perspective) and most importantly come up with a plan to fix it. It doesn't help to just argue about something - come up with a plan/solution to fix it. It may take several attempts but keep trying.

You have only been married a short time - think you both need to put more effort in before you think of calling it quits.


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Ugh man, all, I really ****ed up - BIG TIME. I took it too far with the porn and I don't know why. I went from just looking at porn to trying to contact women. I all honesty I don't think I could ever actually cheat, but well, many would consider this cheating and I don't blame them. My ****ed up head somehow rationalized this ****. The one girl, who was actually a hooker, and I exchanged multiple e-mails and talked about meeting. It's so ****ed up, near the end of the e-mail chain she asked me why I contacted her - because I ended up just e-mailing with her, flirting, etc. but not pulling the trigger on anything. After about a week of exchanging e-mails I realized how ****ed up the things I were doing were and I said that I was just having fun messing around with her, that I couldn't actually ever do that, and kind of just wanted to know someone like her, that I'm curious to learn about people completely different from me. After that, I canceled my yahoo e-mail account which I had been using and deleted my account on the sex website. Cleared out all my internet hisotry files, etc. and said alright, I'm done with this ****.

A week or so later, I have trouble remembering all the details, my wife found everything out. She apparently saw my profile somehow and appears to have read all the e-mails, and I wrote some sick nasty e-mails. She's rightly devastated and I think I pretty much ruined the best thing that ever happened to me. I'm in shock, and I'm going to start counseling ASAP - hopefully today. I already have a message back but I'm so messed up in the head. I have a life many would be jealous of, a beautiful home, a beautiful, intelligence, loving, fun wife who adds so much value to me, and yet I took it all for granted. I haven't broken down yet, it all feels like some horrible dream and I just want to bang my head somewhere and wake up and hug my wife.

Every single peson I know, aside from my wife, has the upmost respect from me, thinks I'm an unbeliebale person with great morals, discipline, hardwork, selfless, etc, but why does the one person that means the world to me get all the **** I have thrown on her?

Please rip me a new one if you want to, or let me know any insight, advice (if it's possible).

Lastly, my wife asked that I show her this website (1 week ago), and I've tought about doing that, but now I dont' want her to think I posted this last post to somehow make her think something - she obviously doesn't trust me.


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## seekingAdvice3 (Oct 6, 2008)

please see my post that I now started in the infidelity section (


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