# One strike and you are out!



## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

I am of the firm belief now, after watching the way my ex carried on during the years of so-called marriage, that once someone strays - just call it quits. I now that may seem controversial but given what I read here on this sight, watching human behaviour, and observing my ex over the years - the odds of changing after an affair are REALLY slim. With the rugsweeping, tickle truth, etc... I can see now all I did over the years was enable her unfaithful behaviour and I think now the best thing would have been to call it quits the first time it happened - it would have saved alot of time and energy and the result would have been the same. I have come to the conclusion - people don't change.


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## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

I would still be careful with generalizations like that. But yeah, in my years of interactions with people, I learned that after reaching a certain age, most people cannot make significant changes in their main behavioral characteristics.

That people change for the better is one of those feel-good myths rooted in our society. Just like "good guys always win", "justice is blind", or "love beats hate". Most belive this things simply because they want to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

I think you're right for the most part but I think it all depends on the nature of the infidelity

EA vs. PA vs. EA/PA
Extent of the deceit
Extent of the defiance

For me personally, a PA is a line crossed I may never be able to get past and certainly there are many BS here who are in an "R" that I never could be in.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Ya they do, but we can agree to disagree. But specificly you are some what right when it comes to infidelity.....it seems until the reason a wayward adress the need to be decietful they will never change.

I mean its hard to look at your self as a cheater, wife beater, or any other charater flaw, but if one has the strength to admit to them selves they are a losser, then they *can* make the changes to be a winner. One just has to face the fact of what they are or what they became.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I agree with this, mostly. That has to be judged on a case-by-case basis. Watching closely, asking to see the maths, dealing with it versus rugsweeping.
Anyway there's no doubt staying is always enabling at a certain degree.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> I am of the firm belief now, after watching the way my ex carried on during the years of so-called marriage, that once someone strays - just call it quits. I now that may seem controversial but given what I read here on this sight, watching human behaviour, and observing my ex over the years - the odds of changing after an affair are REALLY slim. With the rugsweeping, tickle truth, etc... I can see now all I did over the years was enable her unfaithful behaviour and I think now the best thing would have been to call it quits the first time it happened - it would have saved alot of time and energy and the result would have been the same. I have come to the conclusion - people don't change.


I agree. With billions of people in this planet there no rational reason to invest so much time and effort in someone who has been proven deeply flawed. 

And the flaw isn't just about the cheating itself. Cheating revolves around a certain selfishness and entitlement that i do not want in a partner. So, yes, one strike and that's it for me. I know too much about infidelity to think about it in any other way.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

costa200 said:


> I agree. With billions of people in this planet there no rational reason to invest so much time and effort in someone who has been proven deeply flawed.
> 
> And the flaw isn't just about the cheating itself. Cheating revolves around a certain selfishness and entitlement that i do not want in a partner. So, yes, one strike and that it for me. I know too much about infidelity to think about it in any other way.


Not to mention, the BS who will feel flawed for many years to come, for being cheated on and getting tossed into the garbage.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

People are different.
Situations are different.
Lots of variables in every direction.
So to each his own. I do not think it is absolutely impossible for people to change. In fact - they DO change.

For me, it is one time and out the door. My wife has never had a PA (that I know of). It was hard enough on me to work through her EA.

I do think that once a spouse strays physically the second time is much easier.

So I don't care if other people can R after a PA or not - I couldn't.


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## Yessongs72 (Dec 6, 2012)

I am at the stage of believing my wife is in PA with POSOM (love that term), but not proven - and if confronted now i think she would at the most admit to EA. I could forgive EA and attempt R, but PA is just unforgivable for me (which is why i must prove). I just can't get by the idea of another man being inside her, my wife is not a great fan of condoms (we tried a couple of years back and it just wasn't as good for either of us) so i am thinking she has had unprotected sex with POSOM, thanks b1tch - now i need STD tests. So, in my view, Adultery (as defined in English law) = Divorce


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Yessongs72 said:


> I just can't get by the idea of another man being inside her, my wife is not a great fan of condoms (we tried a couple of years back and it just wasn't as good for either of us) so i am thinking she has had unprotected sex with POSOM, thanks b1tch - now i need STD tests. So, in my view, Adultery (as defined in English law) = Divorce


I always get sad at the naiveté of the BS's belief that the infidels would most certainly wear condoms. I understand them wanting to believe the waywards are smarter than that, but c'mon. If these cheaters are dumb enough to ruin their marriages, friendships, careers, reputations, etc. are they all of a sudden gonna get smart and use a condom at the moment of truth?

I kinda think not.

This isn't an insult to you yessongs, as I was just as naive way back when.


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## Yessongs72 (Dec 6, 2012)

3putt - i said "i am thinking she has had unprotected sex with POSOM", which i interpret as meaning there was no condom. So how is that naive?


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Yessongs72 said:


> 3putt - i said "i am thinking she has had unprotected sex with POSOM", which i interpret as meaning there was no condom. So how is that naive?


I was actually speaking in generalities, but since it was on the tail end of your post didn't want you to think I was singling you out.

I could've phrased it better. My bad.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If someone stole a great deal from you once, would you continue giving them access to your money? If they molested your kid, would you still give them access to your child? I can forgive but I don't see any point in setting yourself up for repeated victimization.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Yessongs72 said:


> I am at the stage of believing my wife is in PA with POSOM (love that term), but not proven - and if confronted now i think she would at the most admit to EA. I could forgive EA and attempt R, but PA is just unforgivable for me (which is why i must prove). I just can't get by the idea of another man being inside her, my wife is not a great fan of condoms (we tried a couple of years back and it just wasn't as good for either of us) so i am thinking she has had unprotected sex with POSOM, thanks b1tch - now i need STD tests. So, in my view, Adultery (as defined in English law) = Divorce


I was able to forgive my wife her PA.

But not everyone can and nor should everyone. Horse for courses, as they say.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> If someone stole a great deal from you once, would you continue giving them access to your money? If they molested your kid, would you still give them access to your child? I can forgive but I don't see any point in setting yourself up for repeated victimization.


Child molestation is equal to stealing money is equal to having an affair? No. It isn't.

That sound you heard? That was credulity being stretched right to the point that it broke.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Thank you for your responses - for me it is a pure economics model - potential gain versus potential effort. The gain after an affair (i.e., damaged relationship, lack of trust, pain of dealing with deception, lies, deceit, mind movies, plus dealing with the actual (not imagined) person you would be stuck with would not equal the effort put in....in my eyes not worth the effort. Perhaps, that is why the bible says it is the one reason for divorce.
I recall when I first came to this site - I desparately wanted things back the way they were and they commented "by the time she comes back, you will have dealt with it and won't want her back." I did not believe him at the time but I see what he was getting at then. Now that I have been "out there" I see a new relationship with someone else would be easier than going back to my ex.....even the girl I dated briefly afterwards..she had some issues but they had nothing to do with me so I was willing to work through them....not so with my ex.


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## mvarney (Dec 7, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> I am of the firm belief now, after watching the way my ex carried on during the years of so-called marriage, that once someone strays - just call it quits. I now that may seem controversial but given what I read here on this sight, watching human behaviour, and observing my ex over the years - the odds of changing after an affair are REALLY slim. With the rugsweeping, tickle truth, etc... I can see now all I did over the years was enable her unfaithful behaviour and I think now the best thing would have been to call it quits the first time it happened - it would have saved alot of time and energy and the result would have been the same. I have come to the conclusion - people don't change.


Im totally with ya brother...my wife has cheated in the past and rug swept and justified for her casue i didnt know any better...I enabled my wife as well as she was young and comes from a family where she had everything done for her...I said too myself..shes young she'll snap out of it...well shes cheating again and its time to let her go...ill forgive her and hope she doesnt continue doing to other people


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## Yessongs72 (Dec 6, 2012)

quote "I see a new relationship with someone else would be easier than going back to my ex"

Personally that has nothing to do with it. Being realistic i'm a slightly overweight, balding, 50-something, with a small euro hatchback car (rather than the Audi R8 i lust over). After Divorce i reckon my chances of a new relationship are up there with England winning the next world cup (i.e. no chance). But that doesn't matter. Adultery = It's over.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

It's not about three strikes to be out in many cases - for me, on the first strike is when I realized we weren't even having a game of baseball, it was just an illusion and she was in it for a completely different reason than I was - no amount of additional strikes would have changed the outcome.


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## WhatASituation (Sep 27, 2012)

I've been trying to get over my wife's multiple EA's, one was a PA (she says non-sexual of course). Tried MC, IC for me to fix me and after all this, I still look at her and wonder if things go soft again, will she seek something "hard" again. Not to be crude, but I am exiting this bad situation. She can have the money, my self-respect and happiness has no price tag.


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## Kronk (Dec 8, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> I am of the firm belief now, that once someone strays - just call it quits.


:smthumbup:


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Wife cheated 5 years ago, 3-1/2 years ago, and then last year. I had a child with her and was ignorant of places like TAM. I wholeheartedly agree. They do not change, 99% of them anyway. Less than 3 months my D is final.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

For the most part yes, I agree. 

R is possible, but most waywards are nowhere near capable of it. 

R takes selflessness, remorse, empathy, and compassion

The pre requisites of having an affair are selfishness, entitlement, Callous behavior, and a foul self serving attitude.

And people don't change once past a certain age, and on the chance they do not by much. 

Thats why I'd find it laughable if it wasn't so pathetic and sad when waywards talk about how bad and guilty they felt whilst they continued to bang their husband/wive's best friend/family/etc.

Honestly how I didn't punch my ex in the mouth amazes me at times when I think of the guilt crap she spewed which I was so eager to eat up. 

No matter the relationship, after infidelity odds are you'd be better off divorcing. Once infidelity hits a marriage, theres a ceiling. A ceiling where trust and love ends quite harshly. No matter what or how long the infidelity was ago that ceiling will always be there because the BS will know EXACTLY what their spouse is capable of and will have to live with that.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Kasler*
> 
> R is possible, but most waywards are nowhere near capable of it.
> 
> ...



This above is so good it is worth repeating

Just to add little balance to this thread I want to say that WAZZA (Poster on this forum) has had a very successful R and for over 20 years! He says that his marriage now is better than it ever was.

*Wazza has proven that the automatic one strike and you are out is not always the best way*


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Yea, but one poster in how many? Once again showing the odds are against you and slim to none..thus showing it is not worth it.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Yessongs72 said:


> I am at the stage of believing my wife is in PA with POSOM (love that term), but not proven - and if confronted now i think she would at the most admit to EA. I could forgive EA and attempt R, but PA is just unforgivable for me (which is why i must prove). I just can't get by the idea of another man being inside her, my wife is not a great fan of condoms (we tried a couple of years back and it just wasn't as good for either of us) so i am thinking she has had unprotected sex with POSOM, thanks b1tch - now i need STD tests. So, in my view, Adultery (as defined in English law) = Divorce


There has been no more humiliating experience in my life than standing with my drawers around my ankles at the county std clinic. Talking to my family about W's suspected affair(s) has been less humiliating or traumatic than the nurse with her magnifiers on giving me a close inspection.

I understand your need for certainty. With all the complications of kids, mortgage, retirement accounts, years of history together, etc, one does not want to make a decision based on incorrect assumptions. Now about 16 months down the road I am believing that the uncertainty itself becomes as big a problem as an infidelity would have been if she had confessed. There is no winning in this game.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Obviously; people are different. That's why it shouldn't wonder that I have a different opinion

I have a hypothesis that I would love you to prove wrong: Everybody is capable of cheating given the right circumstances and given opportunity.

If I recall it correct, statistics in general states that around 50% of people in a relationship will cheat (give or take a few), and more if they knew their partner would never know.

Now; I know for a fact that my wife is capable of cheating and I have a strong feeling that she will do it again... given circumstance and opportunity. I like being in a relationship, so if I kick my wife out, I will probably seek a new relationship, with a partner. I would know that this new partner would be capable of cheating, but I would constantly wonder if she would choose to do so. It sucks no matter what, but the doubt would kill me. I know I'm jaded because of my history.

I am happy about all the good stuff I have had with my wife through 28 years, and for a lot of reasons, so it wouild also be dragging to start all over with everything, including splitting my kids home.

For me it's the opposite of the opinion above; I would have loved to kick her out in my younger days and start all over, too much shared hisory/baggage and good memories these days.


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## Kronk (Dec 8, 2012)

Hypothetical question:

You have had a business partner for many years, business partner cheats you out of your share of the profits and has done so many times before. Would you trust them again or dissolve the partnership and start again on your own?

I know which option I would take!


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Kronk said:


> Hypothetical question:
> 
> You have had a business partner for many years, business partner cheats you out of your share of the profits and has done so many times before. Would you trust them again or dissolve the partnership and start again on your own?
> 
> I know which option I would take!


If people start treating their spouse like a business partner, there wouldn't be much left of a loving and caring marriage anyway, would there?


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## Kronk (Dec 8, 2012)

No but take away the business and you are left with partner.
The fact remains, if someone cheats you do you cop it or give them the flick. 
I would be waving adios to them with my good finger!


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## iJordan (May 8, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Child molestation is equal to stealing money is equal to having an affair? No. It isn't.
> 
> That sound you heard? That was credulity being stretched right to the point that it broke.


Yes. It is. Not in magnitude, but certainly in principle.

That example served perfectly to demonstrate the difference in type I and type II errors when infidelity is compared to other areas of discourse. 

Put simply: people _mostly_ see things for what they are—except when it comes to infidelity; there, they see what they want to see.

The reason people tend towards reconciliation over divorce (in the first instance) stems from the same place. Divorce may be 'easier' in the long term, but that is a trivial truth. Divorce is almost always the harder choice and reconciliation, despite superficial interpretations, is easier. 

Hence one strike for me.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Affairs occur in about 50% of all marriages. Most couples, 70% or better, recover from affairs.


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## iJordan (May 8, 2012)

Affairs occur in 41% of marriages and of those, 31% survive, according to statisticbrain.com (who cite the Journal of Marital and Family Therapy).


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## Kronk (Dec 8, 2012)

So 12.71% of marriages survive an affair.
Not the most encouraging odds are they!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Kronk said:


> So 12.71% of marriages survive an affair.
> Not the most encouraging odds are they!


Um, you cannot include marriages that never have affairs to calculate the number that survive. 

All of the stats I've seen say that 70% of marriages in which ther are affairs survive the affair.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Affairs occur in about 50% of all marriages. Most couples, 70% or better, recover from affairs.


That would be 70% of those who choose to rebuild 
I think I read that about 50% of those who discover infidelity choose to rebuild.

Now, anyone wanna take a shot? If I leave my wife and try to find a new partner - what's the odds that I end up with a wife who will not cheat on me (with certainty or beyond any reasonable doubt)?


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## iJordan (May 8, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Um, you cannot include marriages that never have affairs to calculate the number that survive.
> 
> All of the stats I've seen say that 70% of marriages in which ther are affairs survive the affair.


The stats I posted and referenced show literally the exact opposite and come from a peer-reviewed journal. Where are you getting your data?




cpacan said:


> Now, anyone wanna take a shot? If I leave my wife and try to find a new partner - what's the odds that I end up with a wife who will not cheat on me (with certainty or beyond any reasonable doubt)?


That would be a logical fallacy. You are conflating potential and probability.


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## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

cpacan said:


> If people start treating their spouse as a business partner, there wouldn't be much left of a loving and caring marriage anyway, would there?


And this is why we have such wonderful statistics of marriage success. What is it now, 55-60% failure rate? 

Amazing how people still prefer this ”follow your heart” garbage, instead of taking a more rational approach to such an important thing as building a lifelong personal partnership. Their whole life foundations are built on a fantasy, one in which the world great and people are nice. Therefore, I am not really surprised that divorce is one of the major culprits in suicides among adult males. We can ignore reality, but we cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.


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## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Affairs occur in about 50% of all marriages. Most couples, 70% or better, recover from affairs.


It is already 50%? Wow, great motivation for getting married.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Um, you cannot include marriages that never have affairs to calculate the number that survive.
> 
> All of the stats I've seen say that 70% of marriages in which ther are affairs survive the affair.


Marriages survive =/= happily married. 

You know how many people R when they really shouldn't?

When most people get cheated on they merely use the children as an excuse for them to do nothing, so if true that stat would not be at all surprising.

In fact its sad that so many people would put up with it when they deserve better.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

It depends on the IQ of the cheater (street smart) and the faithful spouse (not street smart) and their definition of commitment. Deep down in my heart and brain, I know - One strike and you're out is true hence my greatest battle in staying together - It's a greater probability I'm wasting my own time, fighting my own self to believe otherwise. The way I used to see my husband versus the way I see him now is a great gap between here and eternity. Maybe I was the delusional one believeing he had values while all he was doing was verbally mirroring mine in public to cloak his own secret thing...When I was a child I got no reward for lying, stealing or cheating (on exams) - I was always found out so I eliminated these behaviors from my repertoire - These behaviors were not worth my time, effort and pain of embarrassment. My husband, it appears, got away with it for as long as possible while enjoying the rewards and clearly, by the time he was found out, the apple had long been eaten to the core. Can that change? Highly unlikely.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

iJordan said:


> That would be a logical fallacy. You are conflating potential and probability.


No, I think I'm not. If there's a potential, the probability is greater than zero. Does it matter? People (those who chose to quit at least) tell me I deserve better than to live my life with a potential serial cheating wife.

I just wanna know what the chances are, that I pick a partner who hasn't got the potential to cheat, or who has the potential but choose not to use this potential.

And I agree with numbersixxx that the numbers are not that uplifting.


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## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

cpacan said:


> That would be 70% of those who choose to rebuild
> I think I read that about 50% of those who discover infidelity choose to rebuild.
> 
> Now, anyone wanna take a shot? If I leave my wife and try to find a new partner - what's the odds that I end up with a wife who will not cheat on me (with certainty or beyond any reasonable doubt)?


It doesn't really matter what the odds are. And there is no absolute guarantee that the next one won't be a cheater. But I already know that the odds are that your wife is a cheater are 100%. I wouldn't take that bet. But some people are optimists....


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Wanting a Strong Marriage said:


> It doesn't really matter what the odds are. And there is no absolute guarantee that the next one won't be a cheater. But I already know that the odds are that your wife is a cheater are 100%. I wouldn't take that bet. But some people are optimists....


Just curious... one of the things I have struggled with is, how do I know whether she will cheat again or not. How do you know that she will?


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

cpacan: I think remorse is the answer. Remorse cannot be feigned. It's genuine remorse that will deter the one strike deal. The odds are though that we BSs can distort WSs remorse while in our own bewilderment fog on and post Dday.


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## iJordan (May 8, 2012)

cpacan said:


> No, I think I'm not. If there's a potential, the probability is greater than zero. Does it matter? People (those who chose to quit at least) tell me I deserve better than to live my life with a potential serial cheating wife.
> 
> I just wanna know what the chances are, that I pick a partner who hasn't got the potential to cheat, or who has the potential but choose not to use this potential.
> 
> And I agree with numbersixxx that the numbers are not that uplifting.


Yes, it absolutely matters. Just because A and B have a probability of > 0, it doesn't mean they are equal. Probability densities vary; the likelihood of a new partner cheating is > 0, but that isn't really saying anything.

I understand your point, but I think what is important to consider is that dealing in absolutes gets you nowhere. Everyone has the potential to cheat, but that isn't grounds for sticking with a known cheater, lest you be burned in a new relationship.


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## Carlton (Sep 15, 2012)

Yessongs72 said:


> quote "I see a new relationship with someone else would be easier than going back to my ex"
> 
> Personally that has nothing to do with it. Being realistic i'm a slightly overweight, balding, 50-something, with a small euro hatchback car (rather than the Audi R8 i lust over). After Divorce i reckon my chances of a new relationship are up there with England winning the next world cup (i.e. no chance). But that doesn't matter. Adultery = It's over.


***thread jack begin***

Holy Cow, you are underestimating yourself.

I know a guy who's wife cheated, he dumped her after trying for R. 

He is no prize as far as how he looks. He is overweight, balding, short, kind of an a$$hole to some, 55 years old or so, makes $70k a year, nothing spectacular, has a Subaru hatchback, hehe. He is a good guy though if he likes you. He got on Match.com and is now dating the CFO of some company, she is beautiful, intelligent, and just so happens to be a millionaire. She takes him out to all kinds of functions and dresses him herself, all on her dime. He isn't Brad Pitt, but she likes him anyway.

He showed me pics, she looks like she is a young 50, but is actually 58 or so. He stepped in it for sure. What she sees in him, I have no idea. But they are happy.

Don't give up on yourself. Married man's sex life for sure. Lose the weight, shave your head, some new clothes(let the girls in the store pick for you), go out and conquer women, don't look for them to pick you. *LOSE YOUR DEFEATIST ATTITUDE*, women will pick up on that *INSTANTLY* and loath you for it.

P.S. If you are looking for a woman that you don't have to support, look in the next town over or districts that all the lawyers and doctors live. They are usually divorced from them, have taken them for all they were worth and have no need for your money or your hatchback. Everyone wants company, you can be that for them. Your down to Earth-ness, will be a welcome change to them, I am sure.

***thread jack end***


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

RightfulRiskTaker said:


> cpacan: I think remorse is the answer. Remorse cannot be feigned. It's genuine remorse that will deter the one strike deal. The odds are though that we BSs can distort WSs remorse while in our own bewilderment fog on and post Dday.


I am fully aware that what we all look for is true remorse. I think people are different and that they express it differently. The reply from WASM was, that my wife will cheat again with 100% certainty compared to the 25 to 50% chance for a new partner - just wondered how anyone can know this.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

^ I agree Carlton. 

Money, clothes, looks good to have, but for many women not really necessary. Similar for women but not the same. 

Personality and game go a lot farther. I've seen greasy looking 300+ lb guys pulling in chicks cause they know how to talk to them, where you always see the shy guys sipping drinks like a woman is gonna just walk up to em and they can go from there. 

Its basically having game, but also how you come off. 

One of my divorced friends recently went onto match.com. His profile came off as very no nonsense and cold (thats what I think anyways) but from what I hear from his brother hes getting blown up on there.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> I am of the firm belief now, after watching the way my ex carried on during the years of so-called marriage, that once someone strays - just call it quits. I now that may seem controversial but given what I read here on this sight, watching human behaviour, and observing my ex over the years - the odds of changing after an affair are REALLY slim. With the rugsweeping, tickle truth, etc... I can see now all I did over the years was enable her unfaithful behaviour and I think now the best thing would have been to call it quits the first time it happened - it would have saved alot of time and energy and the result would have been the same. I have come to the conclusion - people don't change.


I believe in second chances, not in enabling self serving and egotistical behaviors.

People don't change because you partner or spouse wants them to. People change when they need to. Very often is when they are on the verge of the precipice, that they realize they are the problem and not the victims.


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## Carlton (Sep 15, 2012)

Memento said:


> People change when they need to. Very often is when they are on the verge of the precipice, that they realize they are the problem and not the victims.


In my stbxw's case it will be way too late. I am going to give it about a year before she realizes how f'd up she is, if ever.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

MattMatt said:


> Child molestation is equal to stealing money is equal to having an affair? No. It isn't.
> 
> That sound you heard? That was credulity being stretched right to the point that it broke.


I am not equating the three in terms of their seriousness. I'm pointing out the simple fact that risk avoidance takes at least three things into consideration: 1. the likelihood of a potential event. 2. The damage expected should the event happen. 3. Cost of implementing a control. Statistically, one who steals, one who cheats, one who molests kids, is more likely to repeat the conduct that an unknown is likely to commit any of the three. 2. An affair can destroy a marriage, can destroy your finances and can result in decades of wasted years of opportunities. 3. Ditching a cheater costs very little, emotionally and financially, compared to the potential losses down the road for delay.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

Carlton said:


> In my stbxw's case it will be way too late. I am going to give it about a year before she realizes how f'd up she is, if ever.


Almost every cheater I know, blames their partner/spouse for their cheating. And worst, they often believe their own lies. Mind boggling!


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## iJordan (May 8, 2012)

Memento said:


> *I believe in second chances, not enabling self serving and egotistical behaviors.
> *
> People don't change because you partner or spouse wants them too. People change when they need to. Very often is when they are on the verge of the precipice, that they realize they are the problem and not the victims.


Just so I'm clear, are you saying that drawing a line at cheating is self-serving and egotistical? If not, what are you saying?


----------



## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

iJordan said:


> Just so I'm clear, are you saying that drawing a line at cheating is self-serving and egotistical? If not, what are you saying?


Not at all. 
What I am saying is, some people deserve a second chance when they realize that the behavior they engaged was not consistent with the behavior a married person should have. However, giving another opportunity to someone who does not see beyond their own selfish needs is a waste a time and resources.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

cpacan said:


> If people start treating their spouse as a business partner, there wouldn't be much left of a loving and caring marriage anyway, would there?


I think he was just comparing two types of partnerships where trust and honesty are utmost priority for both individuals. Seems like a good analogy to make us think with logic and not with emotion actually.


----------



## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

cpacan said:


> Just curious... one of the things I have struggled with is, how do I know whether she will cheat again or not. How do you know that she will?


You misunderstand me. Obviously, I can't predict the future with 100% accuracy. But we are talking odds. They are a best guess, not fortune telling. 

For example, I have never cheated in any relationship I have been in. The odds are good that in the future I will not cheat, based on my past behavior. No 100% guarantee for my husband, but I am a good bet. Your wife on the other hand is a cheater. Maybe there are redeeming qualities that make you want to overlook that. I'm not commenting on any of that. Just her cheating odds. I can't give you any numbers. They would just be pulled out of thin air anyway. But her odds aren't as good as mine. I solve my problems and issues through communication and self-reflection. Apparently, she deals with her issue(s)? by going outside of her marriage. 

My whole point of contributing to this discussion wasn't even to comment on your particular situation. Just that I don't understand the argument that there is no guarantee that your next partner won't cheat, so you might as well stay put with the one that you *know* will cheat. 

If you feel safe and secure in your wife's ongoing fidelity, then stay put. If you don't, there's no point in "playing the odds." If not, well there does come a time to cut your losses when the odds are stacked against you.


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## WhatASituation (Sep 27, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Fortunately or maybe by pure chance, I did not seek out the same thing again like to many seem to. I had a short list of character traits that triggered me to run like hell (anything mean, sneaky, condescending, rude, aggressive).


Wow, I wish I'd paid attention to these traits as my stbxw exhibits them at times. I am staying FAR AWAY from women in the future who show any of these things.


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## iJordan (May 8, 2012)

Memento said:


> Not at all.
> What I am saying is, some people deserve a second chance when they realize that the behavior they engaged was not consistent with the behavior a married person should have. However, giving another opportunity to someone who does not see beyond their own selfish needs is a waste a time and resources.


Ah. OK. I agree with that, but it is contingent on how quickly they come to such realisations. If they have to go to the _'verge of the precipice'_ to realise their mistake and that verge is past my line, tough s h i t—I'm done.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

WhatASituation said:


> Wow, I wish I'd paid attention to these traits as my stbxw exhibits them at times. I am staying FAR AWAY from women in the future who show any of these things.


Yea I had a few rules. 

- If she's mean to other people then it's matter of time before I'm the target.
- If she doesn't get along with women in general but has guyfriends then she's a b!tch and you better run. Satan could have guy friends if he had a vag.
- If she looks down on other then it wont be long before I'm the one she has no empathy respect for.
- If she thinks it ok to cheat in life to get ahead then eventually she'll cheat on me.


Looking back, I really should thank my first wife. Without her I may not learned these things. She turned out to be a decent ex though.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Memento said:


> I believe in second chances, not in enabling self serving and egotistical behaviors.
> 
> People don't change because you partner or spouse wants them too. People change when they need to. Very often is when they are on the verge of the precipice, that they realize they are the problem and not the victims.


GFT


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

WhatASituation said:


> Wow, I wish I'd paid attention to these traits as my stbxw exhibits them at times. I am staying FAR AWAY from women in the future who show any of these things.


You can avoid certain traits. Still the same statics we were talking about claims there's no way to know. You may find another partner with a complete different set of traits and still being cheated on.
Life is uncertaincy. Isn't it fun?


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## WhatASituation (Sep 27, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Yea I had a few rules.
> 
> - If she's mean to other people then it's matter of time before I'm the target.
> - If she doesn't get along with women in general but has guyfriends then she's a b!tch and you better run. Satan could have guy friends if he had a vag.
> ...


And that's how I will look at it too. I will look back and actually thank her to watch out for the signs of any potential partners. I am glad you found a wonderful woman for 20 years. I think most of us would be very jealous of that!


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## WhatASituation (Sep 27, 2012)

Acabado said:


> You can avoid certain traits. Still the same statics we were talking about claims there's no way to know. You may find another partner with a complete different set of traits and still being cheated on.
> Life is uncertaincy. Isn't it fun?


You are absolutely correct. But I do think there is at least a tendency of cheating or any type of betrayal if that individual exhibits certain traits as described above. It may not 100% guarantee anything but it seems to me it would reduce the chances of getting "screwed" later on. 

Life is certainly "interesting"!


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

hooray for absolutes


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> This above is so good it is worth repeating
> 
> Just to add little balance to this thread I want to say that WAZZA (Poster on this forum) has had a very successful R and for over 20 years! He says that his marriage now is better than it ever was.
> 
> *Wazza has proven that the automatic one strike and you are out is not always the best way*


Self assessments are notoriously unreliable. 

Also, denial is a powerful self defense mechanism. 

Than there are issues like co-dependence, low self esteem, etc that may convince someone an affair has improved the marriage in general

An affair never improves a marriage. It may open lines of communications about grievances that should have been handled in counseling rather than an affair, but in its wake it leaves a lingering distrust that is painful to the BS. 

Also, forever after the betrayed spouse is more vulnerable to an affair of their own or if they meet someone whom they feel they feel safer with it makes it easier for the betrayed to divorce the straying spouse. 

In the end both spouses are walking a tightrope. 

The reality is the marriage can survive, but it loses its innocence and the BS is forever on guard and distrustful. 

People can deny that if they like, but it is the reality of life after an affair.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

come at me then

tell me I'm codependent or "beta"
tell me my wife is unremorseful
tell me these past 3+ years haven't been worth it
tell me I am forever on guard and distrustful
tell me I am in denial

I dare ya


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Affairs occur in about 50% of all marriages. Most couples, 70% or better, recover from affairs.


Where do these statistics come from? 

Some people brag about having affairs and have had none. Some have had one or more and never own up to it. 

Some come from psychologists and infidelity experts, but how long do they follow up after counseling ends? None do.

There is a saying:

There are lies, damned lies and then there is statistics. 

The sad fact is statistics can be skewed many ways depending on the observer. 

A marriage can survive an affair, but it's never a better union.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

cpacan said:


> Now, anyone wanna take a shot? If I leave my wife and try to find a new partner - what's the odds that I end up with a wife who will not cheat on me (with certainty or beyond any reasonable doubt)?


The odds are pretty good that you could find a partner who will likely not stray.

Why?

Because you know the cues, you will be able to recognize some of the personality traits and you will likely be enforcing your new spouses boundaries and you will be less trusting and more on high alert for straying cues.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> come at me then
> 
> tell me I'm codependent or "beta"
> tell me my wife is unremorseful
> ...


I couldn't possibly tell you that based on your posts. 

Anyone who says they can is incompetent.

It would take quite awhile to make the above determinations about anyone particular. 

I was speaking in generalities. Why have you personalized it?
Ask yourself that question and please post your answer here.

Also, maybe you can explain in detail why the three years with your wife is worth it. I could never tell you that? Right?


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

remorseful strayer said:


> I couldn't possibly tell you that based on your posts.
> 
> Anyone who says they can is incompetent.
> 
> ...


you miss the point

YOU CAN'T GIVE ABSOLUTES

there is no "always" and "never" in this stuff

I have probably given the "go divorce" advice more often than to say to R, but I recognize that there is a choice and there is successful R when certain factors exist and there are a decent amount of people on this board as an example. To say that ALL marriages can't survive or be better after infidelity or NEVER be worthwhile is an erroneous statement.


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

Several factors are important for reconciliation. 

Both have love. 
They both feel a bond. 
Attracted to each other.
BS spouse accepts what happens, WS works on themselves. 
WS admits and owns their problem. (This has to happen)
BS also admits any wrong doings through MC. 

Now I am not here to say that BS deserve anything, but in repairing a marriage. Sometimes you got to admit what traits you have that created potential resentment.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

cpacan said:


> That would be 70% of those who choose to rebuild
> I think I read that about 50% of those who discover infidelity choose to rebuild.
> 
> Now, anyone wanna take a shot? If I leave my wife and try to find a new partner - what's the odds that I end up with a wife who will not cheat on me (with certainty or beyond any reasonable doubt)?


What are the odds of wanting to remarry after divorcing a cheating wife?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> come at me then
> 
> tell me I'm codependent or "beta"
> tell me my wife is unremorseful
> ...


Was not directed at me but I have input on it. I have tons of respect for guys who overcome infidelity and recover. 

I just don't think I have it in to survive without making her life miserable thus I don't think recovery would happen. There would have to be some major breakthroughs in my thought process and maybe drugs.

I tried with my first wife and I suppose it was a recovery for my part until three years later when she cheated again. Maybe that jaded me.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> Was not directed at me but I have input on it. I have tons of respect for guys who overcome infidelity and recover.
> 
> I just don't think I have it in to survive without making her life miserable thus I don't think recovery would happen. There would have to be some major breakthroughs in my thought process and maybe drugs.
> 
> I tried with my first wife and I suppose it was a recovery for my part until three years later when she cheated again. Maybe that jaded me.


again, I never said ALL bs's can R

even IF you have a remorseful, transparent, etc WS and you are incapable of forgiveness or being unable to temper your response (aka not be abusive) then yeah, I don't recommend R


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> The odds are pretty good that you could find a partner who will likely not stray.
> 
> Why?


TAM TAM TAM. Viewpoints on consensus opinions on this site and other materials like NMMNG (nice guy) arm you with knowledge.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Thor said:


> What are the odds of wanting to remarry after divorcing a cheating wife?


Odds of wanting to are probably very low. Odds that it will eventually happen because life happens much higher. I didn't want to. I dated my current wife seven years but eventually it hit me that I better pull the trigger.


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## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

cpacan said:


> I am fully aware that what we all look for is true remorse. I think people are different and that they express it differently. The reply from WASM was, that my wife will cheat again with 100% certainty compared to the 25 to 50% chance for a new partner - just wondered how anyone can know this.


I do not believe that argument that stay with your ws because at least you know what you have compared to going out and finding someone new and not knowing if they are a cheater. It's not like 50% of the people out there cheat there has to be some good out there. And if I am staying with my ws just because I know what he or she is compared to whats out there I am just a moron.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

BURNT KEP said:


> I do not believe that argument that stay with your ws because at least you know what you have compared to going out and finding someone new and not knowing if they are a cheater. It's not like 50% of the people out there cheat there has to be some good out there. And if I am staying with my ws just because I know what he or she is compared to whats out there I am just a moron.



to stay for this reason alone is silly, yes


but the relationship history does indeed play a role into the reasons why a BS decides to try and R.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> to stay for this reason alone is silly, yes
> 
> 
> but the relationship history does indeed play a role into the reasons why a BS decides to try and R.


You have one of the more profound screen names. I suspect "Almost" cannot be removed from it for a long time if ever. People who haven't been BS don't get that a piece of it's always there. At least that's my mumbojumbo for today.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> You have one of the more profound screen names. I suspect "Almost" cannot be removed from it for a long time if ever. People who haven't been BS don't get that a piece of it's always there. At least that's my mumbojumbo for today.



I've said essentially the same thing previously

there will always be a sliver of my psyche that will never heal or a sliver of trust that will never be re-earned by my wife. But I'm okay with that, I'm a happy person overall these day, I love my wife and my life


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## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> come at me then
> 
> tell me I'm codependent or "beta"
> tell me my wife is unremorseful
> ...


Beta. But its ok, by definition not everybody can be alpha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Numbersixxx said:


> Beta. But its ok, by definition not everybody can be alpha.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know you're joking but I really dont view myself as alpha beta or whatever

I am what I am and if my wife didn't love me for who I am then there is no point to Ring or even being married.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

BURNT KEP said:


> I do not believe that argument that stay with your ws because at least you know what you have compared to going out and finding someone new and not knowing if they are a cheater. It's not like 50% of the people out there cheat there has to be some good out there. And if I am staying with my ws just because I know what he or she is compared to whats out there I am just a moron.


It's quite amazing how ones statements can be taken out of context. The point I have been trying to make is nothing else than this: you can't consider yourself safe just because you chose to quit.

I have no problems with people who choose to terminate the relationship based on infidelity, it's understandable. What I don't understand is this whichhunt for people who try to work it out for whatever reason they may have.


----------



## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> I know you're joking but I really dont view myself as alpha beta or whatever
> 
> I am what I am and if my wife didn't love me for who I am then there is no point to Ring or even being married.


Yeah, I was joking. Glad, you took it that way. 

Obviously this alpha/beta binary thinking doesn't apply to everybody. But there are true alphas, and I don't mean the PUA bastardize version of it. They are maybe 10% of the general male population.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> you miss the point
> 
> YOU CAN'T GIVE ABSOLUTES
> 
> ...


I agree. There are absolutely no absolutes. Saying a marriage is better sounds like an absolute. 

The preponderance of the arguments here state that the success rate of a marriage LONG TERM, post cheating, is very small compared to those that fail. That's all

Also, my argument is that a self assessment of a marriage's success is flawed as are the statistics associated with cheating and divorce associated with cheating. 

Part of the problem gathering statistics is that a betrayed spouse may not decide to divorce immediately but 2 or ten years down the road, due to the erosion of trust. 

Some people may be so incredibly emotionally healthy and wise that they can see the truth about themselves and their marriage, but that is rare. 

Perhaps you are one. If so good luck. I am glad you are happy, and I wish my wife would have agreed to reconcile, too.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

remorseful strayer said:


> The odds are pretty good that you could find a partner who will likely not stray.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because you know the cues, you will be able to recognize some of the personality traits and you will likely be enforcing your new spouses boundaries and you will be less trusting and more on high alert for straying cues.


Not so sure about this anymore.
My Ex cheated on me and I divorced her immediately. I thought I had learned a lot about what to look for because of that experience. I met and married my STBXW many years later. I was careful and always on the lookout for anything that would indicate a propensity for future cheating with her. We had many, many discussions before and after we were married about infidelity. However, I forgot one thing...people change. Yes, she cheated on me as well only this time was much worse then what my Ex did to me. 

Change is the random element and sometimes it doesn't exist...until it does.


----------



## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

hope4family said:


> Several factors are important for reconciliation.
> 
> Both have love.
> They both feel a bond.
> ...


I feel safe to say that for a lot of us it didn't quite happen that way. Resentments are a two-way street. Somehow, my husband believes that I was happily married to him that's why I didn't cheat (get it? He was the only unhappy one). That the problems in the marriage such as fights etc. were due to my "personality flaws", never his crossing my boundaries repeatedly...which justified his "infidelity" as a solution. But I shouldn't blame the OW (whom I believe is equally responsible because no one can sell me something I don't want to buy) because the problems existed before she came into the picture...Hilarious! I was equally or more unhappily married to him, I just did not choose running to another man as the solution.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> I avoid threads sometimes regarding recovery because I read the things the WS does and imagine my wife doing these things and then anger can project into my comments. It probably happens a lot on TAM but then there are many many cases where the BS is in denial and needs to hear things they don't like. Not saying that's your case though.
> 
> The first point you made though is not taken out of context. I understand what you're say but I don't agree with the logic behind it. * Make decisions to reduce risk of negative things is part of life. We take information at hand and use that to make our choices. I would have been apprehensive about marrying my wife for example if she'd had a history of serial cheating because I would have considered my odds of her cheating on me to be higher.*


Thankyou for clarifying. It just seems that we don't agree about the logic. The bolded logic above isn't necessarily true. People who had a severe car crash due to high speed are not necessarily more likely to push the speed limit in the future IMO. I have no evidence to support this statement, it's just my own observations from several aspects of life.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

cpacan said:


> Thankyou for clarifying. It just seems that we don't agree about the logic. The bolded logic above *isn't necessarily true*. People who had a severe car crash due to high speed are not necessarily more likely to push the speed limit in the future IMO. I have no evidence to support this statement, it's just my own observations from several aspects of life.


I highlighted a key. I agree with you that it's not *necessarily* true. I just think sometimes we know if it's more probable. Your analogy is a good example of something that caused consequences which often prevents it from repeating. Obviously this happens some times and that's why we try to take everything into consideration however there is statistical data showing that people who cheat in previous relationships are more likely to cheat in existing ones. We had a thread on here a few months ago about sexual history where that little tidbit was dug up.

Using my logic, I would not let my teenage daugther walk alone in a crime ridden neighborhood. It's not necessarily true that anything will happen but it's statistically more probable. People who don't think this way more often find themselves in bad situations that could have been avoided.

I'm mainly arguing the concept here of minimized risk. I know only a couple of details of your marriage so obviously I don't have an informed opinion on that.


----------



## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> to stay for this reason alone is silly, yes
> 
> 
> but the relationship history does indeed play a role into the reasons why a BS decides to try and R.


Yes I am trying to R but I just never can get people who will stay just because they are afraid of whats out there.


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

BURNT KEP said:


> Yes I am trying to R but I just never can get people who will stay just because they are afraid of whats out there.


Do you know of any people who stays _solely _for that reason?


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

cpacan said:


> Do you know of any people who stays _solely _for that reason?



my mother probably did that


----------



## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

cpacan said:


> Do you know of any people who stays _solely _for that reason?


To be honest I do not know of anyone other then my dad who cheated and my mom kicked his ass out lol. It's just the same comments I see on here I tell you the truth and I just can't use that reason to stay.


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

BURNT KEP said:


> To be honest I do not know of anyone other then my dad who cheated and my mom kicked his ass out lol. It's just the same comments I see on here I tell you the truth and I just can't use that reason to stay.


The reason I asked is that I believe that the reasons for staying is often a complex set of thoughts, feelings and practicalities on both the stay-side and the flee-side.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

fear can be complex I suppose, but ultimately it's fear


----------



## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

iJordan said:


> Yes. It is. Not in magnitude, but certainly in principle.
> 
> That example served perfectly to demonstrate the difference in type I and type II errors when infidelity is compared to other areas of discourse.
> 
> ...


SEE HERE is where you are MISTAKEN. I have been both divorced and in R. I can tell you from experience that R has been 10 times HARDER than my D was. So this is a very very general statement with absolutely NO merit. Both of them are a sh*t sandwich that bring misery and pain and adjustment. One lets you get away from the source of your pain while the other puts you in to run the gauntlet WITH the source.

If you havent been thru both, speak for yourself here.


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Decimated said:


> Not so sure about this anymore.
> My Ex cheated on me and I divorced her immediately. I thought I had learned a lot about what to look for because of that experience. I met and married my STBXW many years later. I was careful and always on the lookout for anything that would indicate a propensity for future cheating with her. We had many, many discussions before and after we were married about infidelity. However, I forgot one thing...people change. Yes, she cheated on me as well only this time was much worse then what my Ex did to me.
> 
> Change is the random element and sometimes it doesn't exist...until it does.


If your first wife cheated before the internet boom, you likely did not have access to all the cues, as do people today. 

Sites like this help educate people. 

Also, divorcing her immediately likely means you two didn't hash things out much. 

But, you make a valid point. There is always the possibility that your next spouse will cheat on you. 

Still, you will be at least able to trust them, until you learn you can't. 

With a spouse that cheated, you already know they cheated, and the distrust will always be there.


----------



## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

cpacan said:


> The reason I asked is that I believe that the reasons for staying is often a complex set of thoughts, feelings and practicalities on both the stay-side and the flee-side.


I think the biggest reason I stay is the kids my ww had an ea that turned pa that almost turned into them together with my kids and house. You can't make this [email protected]@@ u.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

I tried to R twice during my ex's A. The first time to R he was "so sorry" but then moved into her place a month later. A few months after that, he was a "broken man" and came back wanting to R again. I did take him back and tried to work through things. I did it b/c he was my H and marriage is something I hold dear. I take my vows and committment seriously and really feel marriage should be for life. 

Well, obviously he didn't feel the same way since he started an EA 5yrs after the whole PA thing. 

After my experience, you bet its only 1 strike and done going forward in any future relationships.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> If your first wife cheated before the internet boom, you likely did not have access to all the cues, as do people today.
> 
> Sites like this help educate people.
> 
> ...


How do you reach the bolded conclusion? I don't see it from Decimated's post, he would have to answer for himself though, but it certainly don't apply to me at this point in time. Either the trust-engine inside of me is broken or I would just hate to watch the I-Told-You-So-Dance in a new relationship.


----------



## iJordan (May 8, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> SEE HERE is where you are MISTAKEN. I have been both divorced and in R. I can tell you from experience that R has been 10 times HARDER than my D was. So this is a very very general statement with absolutely NO merit. Both of them are a sh*t sandwich that bring misery and pain and adjustment. One lets you get away from the source of your pain while the other puts you in to run the gauntlet WITH the source.
> 
> If you havent been thru both, speak for yourself here.


Not sure why you're so agitated. I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you simply haven't comprehended what I said. 

I stated quite clearly that: 



> Divorce is almost always the harder choice and reconciliation, *despite superficial interpretations*, is easier


You just did exactly that (the bolded).

I said that the the choice to reconcile is easier than the choice to divorce. The fact that _'one lets you get away from the source of your pain while the other puts you in to run the gauntlet WITH the source'_ is exactly why claiming that divorce is easier is a trivial truth and was exactly my point.

Also, one doesn't have to go through both before they can make valid, general observations. I would hasten to remind you that general theories are better than specific theories and as such, your single example of what you went through carries little merit and perhaps you should speak for yourself, here—like you suggested I do.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

iJordan said:


> Not sure why you're so agitated. I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you simply haven't comprehend what I said.
> 
> I stated quite clearly that:
> 
> ...


THE choice to divorce was not harder than the choice to R. In fact it was more clear cut and more obvious that it was the ONLY answer. Whereas the choice to R is wrought with uncertainty and insecurity. So perhaps the choice was easier for you to D. No shame in that. But make NO mistake the choice to R is one that comes from hours,days, weeks or even months of vacillation. And once the choice is made there is no guarantee that it will work out. In fact the odds are against it. When one makes the choice to D, thats a guarantee of a few things. You are done with that person, with the exception of parenting if you have children. They can no longer have any control of you. You know where you stand and youre not going to wake up to another surprise tomorrow. So, in fact the choice, In MY experience to D was much much easier than the choice to R. Because of the uncertainty that comes with R. 

So NO. I didnt misinterpret anything. I simply stated my opinion based on having lived both experiences. 
*
"The fact that 'one lets you get away from the source of your pain while the other puts you in to run the gauntlet WITH the source' is exactly why claiming that divorce is easier is a trivial truth and was exactly my point.?*

And its neither "trivial" nor "truth" that either is "easier". THere is nothing easy in either of these scenerios. And no you dont have to have experienced both to have an opinion but it sure as hell helps.

Back to you OP.


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## iJordan (May 8, 2012)

I bet the relationship you ended via divorce came before the relationship you chose to reconcile. I imagine a lot of people, having chosen to divorce once already, would choose reconciliation a second time.

There are lots of factors that can influence the decision to reconcile and not all of them—or perhaps most of them—are good. Many choose to reconcile because their marriage has the potential to be worth saving; I think more choose to reconcile because of fear and its subsets.

That is my opinion and maybe you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss because it conflicts with yours.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

iJordan said:


> I bet the relationship you ended via divorce came before the relationship you chose to reconcile. I imagine a lot of people, having chosen to divorce once already, would choose reconciliation a second time.
> 
> *There are lots of factors that can influence the decision to reconcile and not all of them—or perhaps most of them—are good. *That is my opinion and maybe you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss because it conflicts with yours.


Oh. I dont disagree with THIS opinion at all. Not one bit. The proof is all over this board. Im not trying to pick a fight with you here. There is no doubt that people do stay out of fear. Fear of lonliness, fear of financial ruin, fear of the unknown. Simply trying to say that NONE of this is simple or easy. And whats easier for one will be much more difficult for another. 

And IMO a person who has already faced a D is more likely to pull that trigger again bc they dont fear it. I know that IF I decided that our R wasnt working I could/would pull that trigger. I dont fear it. I just dont want it. So here we disagree too. But thats ok bc its a discussion and thats what happens in discussions, right?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> SEE HERE is where you are MISTAKEN. I have been both divorced and in R. I can tell you from experience that R has been 10 times HARDER than my D was. So this is a very very general statement with absolutely NO merit. Both of them are a sh*t sandwich that bring misery and pain and adjustment. One lets you get away from the source of your pain while the other puts you in to run the gauntlet WITH the source.


I believe you. But I see the point in terms of how it appears and feels when considering the options. The last 18 months of rebuilding (no absolute proof of affairs so I won't call it exactly a reconciliation) have been very difficult but in an incremental and sometimes low grade way. A D looks scary as hell to me! Lots of big issues to confront. Emotional issues, financial, legal, family, kids, practical (where will I live?), worry about being alone, etc.

So the D _looks_ and feels frightening when I contemplate it. But I can grit my teeth and grind my way through another day of trying to Rebuild even though it appears to be failing. In reality a D may have been a lot easier than the summation of what I have been through in this R.

There are definitely times when I wish I had pulled the plug 18 months ago and been done with D by now.

The decision to R is a daily one. The D decision is a final one. If one is uncertain during the D process it becomes final once the D is finalized. Yet the R remains a daily decision to make and remake forever. That is part of the difficulty for me, always evaluating if I am making the right decision and hoping I am not making a mistake.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Thor said:


> I believe you. But I see the point in terms of how it appears and feels when considering the options. The last 18 months of rebuilding (no absolute proof of affairs so I won't call it exactly a reconciliation) have been very difficult but in an incremental and sometimes low grade way. A D looks scary as hell to me! Lots of big issues to confront. Emotional issues, financial, legal, family, kids, practical (where will I live?), worry about being alone, etc.
> 
> So the D _looks_ and feels frightening when I contemplate it. But I can grit my teeth and grind my way through another day of trying to Rebuild even though it appears to be failing. In reality a D may have been a lot easier than the summation of what I have been through in this R.
> 
> ...


Yep. as I said sh*tsandwich either way. BUT you're also not dealing with a known OM. THe cold, hard, painful mindmovies. THe KNOWN fact of being traded for someone else, if only temporarily. THE KNOWN fact of lies, betrayal and deceit. IF you had those R would be much more daunting than suspecting an A, IMO.

Not to make light of your situation. Anytime a marriage is failing, its a tough row to hoe for sure. But your spouse hasnt proven herself, without doubt, to be someone other than the person you thought you married by choosing some POS in your stead while lying to your face. When you add all of the other issues that come with known infidelity, R is an uphill climb to be certain and a long and drawn out one. 

As I said, each person will have his own limitations. His own ideal of what is "easier" or more accurately more "tolerable". 

Good luck. I know it it tough to be in a failing marriage, regardless of the reason.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> SEE HERE is where you are MISTAKEN. I have been both divorced and in R. I can tell you from experience that R has been 10 times HARDER than my D was. So this is a very very general statement with absolutely NO merit. Both of them are a sh*t sandwich that bring misery and pain and adjustment. One lets you get away from the source of your pain while the other puts you in to run the gauntlet WITH the source.
> 
> If you havent been thru both, speak for yourself here.


:iagree: 
R is a nightmire. I admire guys who are able do it (when their spouses deserve it anyway). 
D is easy. You wake up and your hands are washed clean of the betrayal. It just doesn't matter any more.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> After my experience, you bet its only 1 strike and done going forward in any future relationships.


That's my thought. I've already given my R/Forgiveness card away and I only had one.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Thor said:


> I believe you. But I see the point in terms of how it appears and feels when considering the options. The last 18 months of rebuilding (no absolute proof of affairs so I won't call it exactly a reconciliation) have been very difficult but in an incremental and sometimes low grade way. A D looks scary as hell to me! Lots of big issues to confront. Emotional issues, financial, legal, family, kids, practical (where will I live?), worry about being alone, etc.
> 
> So the D _looks_ and feels frightening when I contemplate it. But I can grit my teeth and grind my way through another day of trying to Rebuild even though it appears to be failing. In reality a D may have been a lot easier than the summation of what I have been through in this R.
> 
> ...


D is scary as hell but if you wake up some morning and decide that you have been in love with an idea of a person and not who that person actually is then it instantly becomes easy. I managed R the first time my ex cheated but we really didn't do anything to fix what caused the A so it happened again a few years later.

A realization that the person I was in love with would never do these things and that I was seeing her as something she was not. It's amazing how one thought in a fraction of a second changes the whole way you look at things.


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## iJordan (May 8, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> [I'm] simply trying to say that NONE of this is simple or easy. And whats easier for one will be much more difficult for another.


And I don't disagree with that, which I said one is eas_ier_—not that one is easy or simple. I don't think anyone would argue either is an easy choice and perhaps both are not even choices inasmuch as they are constraints and coercions placed on the betrayed spouse.

I also don't think it varies dramatically, i.e., _'what's easier for one will be much more difficult for another.'_ Generally, I think most people will find the idea of reconciliation easier—whether they're consciously aware of it or not—for reasons previously outlined (and correctly expanded on by yourself).




canttrustu said:


> And IMO a person who has already faced a D is more likely to pull that trigger again bc they dont fear it. I know that IF I decided that our R wasnt working I could/would pull that trigger. I dont fear it. I just dont want it. So here we disagree too. But thats ok bc its a discussion and thats what happens in discussions, right?


I do disagree here. I think the sunk-cost fallacy would come into play even more for twice-betrayed spouses. Perhaps someone like yourself is more actively aware of their situation and wouldn't fall for that line of reasoning, but that likely isn't the norm.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

iJordan said:


> And I don't disagree with that, which I said one is eas_ier_—not that one is easy or simple. I don't think anyone would argue either is an easy choice and perhaps both are not even choices inasmuch as they are constraints and coercions placed on the betrayed spouse.
> 
> I also don't think it varies dramatically, i.e., _'what's easier for one will be much more difficult for another.'_ Generally, I think most people will find the idea of reconciliation easier—whether they're consciously aware of it or not—for reasons previously outlined (and correctly expanded on by yourself).
> 
> ...


well the divorce rate for second marriages is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than in first marriages so I stand by my statement. I dont think the sunk cost fallacy would apply as much in second marriages as in firsts. In second marriages I know far more people who invest LESS than they did in the first bc they got burned so badly the first go around. They tend to stay more independent both emotionally and financially in my experience. Those factors along with the stressors of a blended family and lack of fear of D make the divorce rate higher IMO.


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## iJordan (May 8, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> well the divorce rate for second marriages is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than in first marriages so I stand by my statement.


There is a myriad of reasons as to why second marriages fail that have nothing to do with infidelity.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

iJordan said:


> There is a myriad of reasons as to why second marriages fail that have nothing to do with infidelity.


Yep. I mentioned them above. AND youre the one who brought infidelity into it. I merely was commenting originally on a persons willingness to "pull the trigger" the second time regardless of reason. But you brought infidelity into it after I made that comment.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

iJordan said:


> There is a myriad of reasons as to why second marriages fail that have nothing to do with infidelity.


True, they didn't learn from the 1st marriage. It was the other person's fault that we divorced, I never did anything wrong. So, they keep making the same mistakes over and over and keep wondering how they can meet such horrible people and married them.

Forgot who the comedian was but he was talking about how some woman was complaining how every guy she is with the sex is so terrible and they all suck at it.

Maybe it's.....YOU?????


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## iJordan (May 8, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Yep. I mentioned them above.


You edited your post to mention them above after I had posted.



canttrustu said:


> AND youre the one who brought infidelity into it. I merely was commenting originally on a persons willingness to "pull the trigger" the second time regardless of reason. But you brought infidelity into it after I made that comment.


I brought infidelity into it? You claimed that the failure-rate of second marriages corroborated your statement that:



> IMO a person who has already faced a D is more likely to pull that trigger again bc they dont fear it.


You were responding to my statement:



> I imagine a lot of people, having chosen to divorce once already, would choose reconciliation a second time.


Are you now going to pretend we weren't talking about such things *in the context of infidelity?* No, sorry—this was bad reasoning on your part.

With regards to the sunk-cost fallacy and second marriages, one only has to look the the sheer amount of threads on this sub-forum to see how common _'ex-husband/wife cheated, we divorced; new husband/wife cheated, want to reconcile/what to do?!'_ is. Given that, my point is—at the least—up for consideration. I do not think it is _at all_ a stretch to imagine the desire to not let your second marriage fail after your first one did.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

iJordan said:


> You edited your post to mention them above after I had posted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The statistics do not support what you "imagine". The statistics of infidelity are just as high in second marriages as they are in firsts. I orginally stated that I would not fear D in the least should I determine R to not be working. Then you told me I was an 'exception' basically and that in your opinion most prior divorcee's would be less like to pull the trigger rather over infidelity or any other reason. Im telling you that statistically and factually speaking this is incorrect. the facts are people who have already been divorced are more likely to divorce again. Its a statistical fact. the theory of sunk cost doesnt enter the equation as often the second time around clearly based on results. Those results being the divorce rate is higher the second time and even higher each subsequent time thereafter. So divorce does not cause one to be gun shy of divorce the next time as you surmised. In fact, the evidence is to the contrary.

Im done hj'ing this thread. 

Sorry OP.


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## iJordan (May 8, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> The statistics do not support what you "imagine". The statistics of infidelity are just as high in second marriages as they are in firsts. I orginally stated that I would not fear D in the least should I determine R to not be working. Then you told me I was an 'exception' basically and that in your opinion most prior divorcee's would be less like to pull the trigger rather over infidelity or any other reason. Im telling you that statistically and factually speaking this is incorrect. the facts are people who have already been divorced are more likely to divorce again. Its a statistical fact. the theory of sunk cost doesnt enter the equation as often the second time around clearly based on results. Those results being the divorce rate is higher the second time and even higher each subsequent time thereafter. So divorce does not cause one to be gun shy of divorce the next time as you surmised. In fact, the evidence is to the contrary.
> 
> Im done hj'ing this thread.
> 
> Sorry OP.


Look, either you attempted to use the failure-rate of second marriages as evidence that that twice-betrayed spouses are less likely to reconcile, or you were indulging in a pointless tangent to the conversation.

Which do you want to concede?

You have not provided or referenced any statistics, nor facts—where has this research been done? How credible is it? Methinks you are simply making it up. All you have done is appeal to your own experiences in an attempt to refute general observations—which is inherently fallacious. 

And this isn't the OP's personal thread; it is a discussion thread and our conversation is apropos.


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## Kronk (Dec 8, 2012)

Do you think a lot of second marriages fail because people are so quick to jump into it again? They miss being married or hate being single so if/when the opportunity presents itself they jump in boots and all?
I have been divorced for over 12 years and have had quite a few relationships since then, most of them have failed because I did not want to get married. Marriage does not make a relationship but rather substantiates it IMO. I am lucky enough to have met a beautiful woman whom compliments my personality, morals and beliefs. We are getting married next year and I cannot wait to make her my wife 
I sure am glad I waited.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Memento said:


> Almost every cheater I know, blames their partner/spouse for their cheating. And worst, they often believe their own lies. Mind boggling!


My wife didn't. She actually went out of her way to emphasise most strongly that it was *not* my fault.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

iJordan said:


> Look, either you attempted to use the failure-rate of second marriages as evidence that that twice-betrayed spouses are less likely to reconcile, or you were indulging in a pointless tangent to the conversation.
> 
> Which do you want to concede?
> 
> ...


so you think that second marriages and subsequent ones do NOT have a higher failure rate? Is that your contention?????

And it IS in fact the OP's thread. Just like every thread. It belongs to the OP in general not our off subject tangents.


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## iJordan (May 8, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> so you think that second marriages and subsequent ones do NOT have a higher failure rate? Is that your contention?????
> 
> And it IS in fact the OP's thread. Just like every thread. It belongs to the OP in general not our off subject tangents.


Um... No. I quite clearly said nothing of the sort. 

I am telling you that I doubt you have any credible statistics pertaining to the failure-rate of second marriages due to infidelity—which is exactly what we were talking about.

And no: our conversation was germane to the OP's original topic of discussion.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Cant and IJord, the reason I think D is easier the second time is because we know that we can live through it. The first D feels like the sun is going to stop coming up especially for people who don't realize they can be alone and still be ok yet.


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## iJordan (May 8, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Cant and IJord, the reason I think D is easier the second time is because we know that we can live through it. The first D feels like the sun is going to stop coming up especially for people who don't realize they can be alone and still be ok yet.


Good observation. I think that's very plausible, but does that knowledge trump the stigma of being twice-divorced? Does it mitigate that nagging feeling that maybe—just maybe—you gave up too soon last time... as well as all the other manifestations that creep up on you when considering divorce?

Maybe it does. I think a lot of people will compartmentalise and rationalise fears as justifications, though, and be inclined to tend towards reconciliation a second time—despite knowing that they got through divorce once and could do it again.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Bigtone (OP)
> I am of the firm belief now, after watching the way my ex carried on during the years of so-called marriage, *that once someone strays - just call it quits.*
> 
> I have come to the conclusion - *people don't change*.



Bigtone, if I was going to gamble in Las Vegas I would bet on your conclusions because I think that the odds are in your favor.

However, there is more than money to lose and gain when you contemplate D.

*If you have children then that is a huge factor. If the wayward spouse/parent is showing signs of true remorse followed up with actions then your “one strike and your out” is not a good set rule to go by*. There is just too much at stake.

Are the odds against R? Yes, according to the posts on this forum and can probably be bore out with some surveys. But a spouse that is the parent of your child and is showing true remorse and is taking ACTIONS is a game changer. 

*Does anyone know of any statistics where the WS is truly remorseful and shows it by actions and the BS is willing to work on forgiveness and other areas to keep the family together?*

In the above case the odds can be beaten with real concentrated effort. The BS and the WS can overcome those odds if they are both willing to sacrifice, suffer, and improve. If the WS is taking the right actions then you have the choice to look out for yourself and the child (Children) orlet your emotions rule. *Reconciliation will cost you but sometimes the alternative can cost you even more*.

WAZZA is a poster on this forum that I keep referring to because he has proven that a BS and a truly remorseful wife can not only keep the family together but can gain in many areas even though some areas will never be the same. *In fact he has said that his marriage after 20 years of R is the best it has ever been.*

My guess would be that on this forum you have a lot more people that have not done what WAZZA and his wife have done for many years. Consequently, you have a lot of people agreeing with the statements of “One strike and you are out” and “People do not change” *Although those statements are probably right more than they are wrong, both are bad advise under certain conditions.*

It is probably a fact that those that are successful with an R for many years do not become regulars on this forum for any length of time. I believe there are a lot more people that do not have many years of successful R that are posting on this forum than the successful R people. *I maybe wrong, does any one have some good information on the statement that I have made?*


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

remorseful strayer said:


> If your first wife cheated before the internet boom, you likely did not have access to all the cues, as do people today.
> 
> Sites like this help educate people.
> 
> ...


You are correct. It was over 20 years ago when I divorced my first wife for cheating. We didn't even own a computer at that time. Her POSOM was a co-worker. I didn't bother to work things out with her. We were only married for two years at that point so, to me, it wasn't worth the effort. Cheating =divorce to me so why build a marriage on a cracked foundation. 

With my STBXW, we were married for 12 years with 3 kids when I found out. After staying in a false R for a year I decided to file. I realized I could never trust her again. It certainly didn't help that she was not doing much to earn back that trust.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

So BT you started this thread about your x never changing.

Let me ask you a few questions.

Is she officially your Ex? Did she sign the papers?

Do you speak to her? Or is it through your kids still?

Did you work out your Xmas logistics with the family?

And lastly, you referred to her OM as her spouse. What gives???
I know she is a cheater but is she now a Polygamist????


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

iJordan said:


> There is a myriad of reasons as to why second marriages fail that have nothing to do with infidelity.



Very true:

The blended family issue is a big factor. Also, sometimes money due to having to pay child support for children, also, having to deal with ex spouses at weddings, funerals, graduations, etc.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> My wife didn't. She actually went out of her way to emphasise most strongly that it was *not* my fault.


I did not blame my wife, either. 

I am in touch with myself enough to know without doubt that my affair had nothing to do with her and everything to do with my own faults.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> So BT you started this thread about your x never changing.
> 
> Let me ask you a few questions.
> 
> ...


Hi Happy,

Sorry for the late response - my son arrived on Sunday and spending lotsa time with him...
Ok - not officially - but haven't seen or talked to her for over 9 months (except for a 5 minute sighting at his graduation). In Canada, there is a stupid 1 year waiting period to divorce UNLESS INFIDELITY CAN BE PROVEN....now I saw a lawyer who indicated that it would take a year to prove it through the courts to much expense so it is just best to wait out the year (3 mre months to go). I refer to her as the ex b/c it keeps it clear in my mind AND I hate people assuming there is a possibility we will get back together - plays into her hand of me being Plan B.

I do not even mention her to the kids - it is like she does not exist - it is easier for me that way. 
Funny thing about Christmas - she has chosen to spend majority of time with her AP and his family which leaves me more than enough time with my kids...I am happy ab out that because 1) more time with me with kids and 2) it really shows what she is all about. 
I referred to her OP as spouse because as far as I know she is living with him... so in my mind he is...as far as labels ....I do not know what she is but I do know she is a dishonest manipulative person so whatever label fits that description fill in the blank....thanks for your comments and concern.. BT128


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

One more thing..got a call from my former sister-in-law asking me to attend my former niece's Christmas concert (my ex is still in another province wth her AP (now her live-in). I was iffy about attending bu then decided to go because my niece dd nothing wrong and considered me her favourite uncle. I was well received by my former sister-in-law and my niece was so excited to see me.
I almost cried when I saw her. Went to banquet afterwards, and when I was leaving shee stepped forward (she is 15) and said "when will I see you again". It really hit me, she was scared she would never she me again...I turned to her and said "whenever you want. because me and your aunt are not together anymore, does not affect our relationship." it as touching and sad at the same time.....I really love that kid. The daughter I never had.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Very cool with your neice and SIL.

Do either of your kids live with your wife or are they both in school?

What a shame they could not give you the evidence to file under infidelity.

But 3 months is not that far away and I think you sound so much better than you did earlier this year.

Sorry your STBXW is such a lost cause. Not just to you but your kids.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Yeah, I just got off the phone with my SIL and niece negotiating Christmas - one thing I do NOT want is to pretend that nothing happened and we are one big happy family again. No deal - I will do what I can for my niece and SIL individually but nada for my STBXW.

Both kids are in university and coming home for holidays. I have evidence to file under infidelity but I would have to "prove it" and it would take a long time....etc.. That is one downside of the laws here - there was no way I could snap her out of the fog b/c i could not file.....total bs..

I am doing ALOT better mainly due to this site...it is incedible how much it helped me move on and know what i am dealing with.

Yeah she's a lost cause but frankly I do not care.....for years (and especially when she was messing around) she held my feet to the fire....now it is her turn...but she's the one who walked directly in the fire.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

And she will get burned BT.

tomorrow, afew months, maybe a year or two.

It will happen.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> Also, forever after the betrayed spouse is more vulnerable to an affair of their own or if they meet someone whom they feel they feel safer with it makes it easier for the betrayed to divorce the straying spouse.


Yup. Came to the conclusion that, had I stayed with her, I would start taking whatever "strange" came my way whenever I felt like it. I was the more attractive one anyway.

It had its appeal, but then I realized how vapid and empty I would feel after a while. And as a result, I can still say that I have a zero tolerance policy for infidelity and mean it, cuz I ditched her cheating a$$.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

What about your dating life BT??


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Labcoat said:


> Yup. Came to the conclusion that, had I stayed with her, I would start taking whatever "strange" came my way whenever I felt like it. I was the more attractive one anyway.
> 
> It had its appeal, but then I realized how vapid and empty I would feel after a while. And as a result, I can still say that I have a zero tolerance policy for infidelity and mean it, cuz I ditched her cheating a$$.


The whole issue made me cynical towards marriage and the opposite sex in general however and I was in the mode of who cares? I will go with anyone any time anywhere but have since settled down and realized just because one woman violated her vows does not mean they all do.......I think it jolted my morals for a while but am back to myself.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> What about your dating life BT??


I am not dating anyone right now. I am enjoyng being free and not committed to anyone. I like going where I want, when I want, with whom I want. I joke with people by saying "I know it looks like I am going through a mid-life crisis but I liked being married. My mid-life crisis was forced upon me and I am going to enjoy it."

I am really cynical when it comes to women ....they mostly ask what I am doing for a career, etc. and I find they are looking for someone to take care of them....I am just coming out of a long relationship where I took care of someone so I am not looking to do that again. I realize I am not ready for anything serious. One thing my friends told me is not to get involved seriously with anyone until a year. I resented this comment because my ex moved directly in with her AP ...but there might be some validity to it.


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