# Vegas Story.



## beenbetrayed (Oct 11, 2011)

Hello, I was wondering if you guys had any advice for my wife’s sister and her husband... Recently me and him went to Vegas with a big group of people for a bachelor party. We got a table at a club and some of the guys brought girls back to the table. My brother in law ended up kissing one of them.. I believe for just a few seconds. (I didn’t actually see it happening but he admitted it to her.) She’s devastated and doesn’t see herself ever trusting him again. She’s talking about leaving but they have a 9 month old baby. I was wondering if anyone had any advice about how she can begin to trust him again. He’s already said that he will stop drinking and do anything it takes to prove to her that he will never do anything like that again. So he’s willing to put in the work. But she's afraid that it could happen even 10+ years from now.. Any advice?


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

beenbetrayed said:


> Hello, I was wondering if you guys had any advice for my wife’s sister and her husband... Recently me and him went to Vegas with a big group of people for a bachelor party. We got a table at a club and some of the guys brought girls back to the table. My brother in law ended up kissing one of them.. I believe for just a few seconds. (I didn’t actually see it happening but he admitted it to her.) She’s devastated and doesn’t see herself ever trusting him again. She’s talking about leaving but they have a 9 month old baby. I was wondering if anyone had any advice about how she can begin to trust him again. He’s already said that he will stop drinking and do anything it takes to prove to her that he will never do anything like that again. So he’s willing to put in the work. But she's afraid that it could happen even 10+ years from now.. Any advice?


How old are these 2 ?


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## beenbetrayed (Oct 11, 2011)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> How old are these 2 ?


He is 33. She is 35


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

He is a little long in the tooth to be kissing a stranger in a club. She is old enough to really mean what she says and be dead serious about it. 

No more clubs without his wife again.


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## rv10flyer (Apr 26, 2018)

No drinking away from his wife, no more bachelor parties, no secret passwords on his phone, he needs to share his whereabouts and anything else to help rebuild her trust in him. He needs to grow up, honor his marriage vows, remain committed, respect himself and his wife. He is a Dad now. Would he want his son acting this way or his daughter treated this way by her future husband down the road? I doubt it. Begin today having integrity.


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

He's in hot water. But why aren't you also there? What the hell are you doing in a club in Vegas with a bunch of dudes and a pack of chicks?


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## beenbetrayed (Oct 11, 2011)

rv10flyer said:


> No drinking away from his wife, no more bachelor parties, no secret passwords on his phone, he needs to share his whereabouts and anything else to help rebuild her trust in him. He needs to grow up, honor his marriage vows, remain committed, respect himself and his wife. He is a Dad now. Would he want his son acting this way or his daughter treated this way by her future husband down the road? I doubt it. Begin today having integrity.


He has suggested all these things himself. She said she doesn't know if she wants to live her life like that and constantly worrying about where he is. Part of the problem is she just doesn't even know if she feels the same way towards him anymore. She's saying she feels completely numb... So I guess she really just needs to figure out what her feelings are towards him to start and go from there..


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

beenbetrayed said:


> He has suggested all these things himself. She said she doesn't know if she wants to live her life like that and constantly worrying about where he is. Part of the problem is she just doesn't even know if she feels the same way towards him anymore. She's saying she feels completely numb... So I guess she really just needs to figure out what her feelings are towards him to start and go from there..



Normal for her to feel numb. While she was home taking care of their infant he allowed himself to be compromised. That fleeting kiss began by sitting close then flirting. She is not stupid. 

The ball is in her court. He messed up bad. Not the worse mess up but bad enough.

Does he have a history of this? Can he hold his liquor? 

All he can do is be the best possible husband he can be. If she dumps him better to do it now than her treating him like crap for the next 10 years then having a revenge affair blaming the kiss.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Obviously he doesn’t care about her that much. I would suggest you tell her to leave him and find someone who has some willpower


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

She will NEVER feel the same about him--that ship has sailed! Trust will never be the same.

Mouths are minor sex organs. Kissing activates the same brain pleasure centers as any other sexual activity. Kissing is a marker for closeness. She now wonders how he spent the rest of the night--or the last several years for that matter. She wonders how he could publicly disrespect her like that.

Don't put this off on drinking--it was a choice. What the heck was he thinking? Too many lives have been compromised by bachelor and bachelorette party behaviors. How many other married guys at the table made the same choice?

Showing genuine remorse (not just regret), repeatedly, for a long, long time--the rest of his life--may be a starter. I have no clue how to offer suggestions. I would not want to be married to him.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Obviously he doesn’t care about her that much. I would suggest you tell her to leave him and find someone who has some willpower


Over a kiss? I get that some have a zero tolerance policy but that sounds extreme to me. I would think they should put appropriate boundaries in place and try to work through it. He seems to be willing to do that.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

rv10flyer said:


> No drinking away from his wife, no more bachelor parties, no secret passwords on his phone, he needs to share his whereabouts and anything else to help rebuild her trust in him. He needs to grow up, honor his marriage vows, remain committed, respect himself and his wife.





beenbetrayed said:


> He has suggested all these things himself. She said she doesn't know if she wants to live her life like that and constantly worrying about where he is.



I think it's really important to stress that it's not her who needs to live her life like that. He is the one who needs to start having good boundaries. She shouldn't feel like she's making him do anything, or keeping him from having fun, or nagging or forcing him to be transparent. He needs to be transparent, not drink when he's away, avoid sketchy friends and activities, and generally behave like someone who has a wife whom he loves at home. And he needs to do those thing voluntarily, because he wants to and because he is working diligently on becoming a man of integrity. 

Having her police him from now on is doomed to failure. She shouldn't even try. _He needs to police himself_, willingly and consistently, without her having to do it for him. If he's unwilling to happily control himself, make changes to his life, create and enforce healthy marital boundaries, then she'll never feel safe with him. He's got to demonstrate that he's doing those things, all on his own because he wants to be a good husband and partner to her, for the rest of their married lives. If he's not happy to do that, he needs to be honest about it with her. He can't abdicate responsibility by making her into some sort of mommy enforcer who's making him be good. He's got to grow up and take responsibility by doing those things without her even having to ask. If he's willing to step up, he might eventually become a safe partner for her and trust might be rebuilt to a degree that allows them to rebuild a healthy relationship. But if he's not, then she _shouldn't_ live her life like that. Because he'll never be a safe partner for her.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

In baseball... Willie Mays' glove is where triples go to die. On vacation... Vegas is where marriages go to die.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Not much advice can be given. Only your sister knows his true character (which he showed wasn't so great). Only she knows if he is worth risking her life on. Only she can decide if she can forgive this. 

In reality, it's not as bad as an affair. It was a stranger. Not much real emotions involved. It's not like he is going back to date her or even want to. It was just a lustful, shameful moment where he did what he wanted and didn't think about the consequences.

HOWEVER, he DIDN'T think about his WIFE. He DIDN'T keep proper boundaries. He DIDN'T think highly enough of your sister to stop that stuff cold, or think highly enough of her to avoid being in the situation in the first place.

I am not some "prude" that has never been to a strip joint. I have and pretty much enjoyed the hell out of it in my younger years. I went 6-8 times total to some. I wouldn't go to one in Vegas, or any other now that I'm married. I don't want that seed of lust for another woman's body planted in my brain. My wife wouldn't want me drooling over some young hotty. I wouldn't want her doing that, so I don't do those things either. Your brother has majorly screwed up. And your sister has enough of a positive self-image and security to say that she is not accepting of this and may want a divorce. I think that's a good thing.

Do "I" think she should divorce over this? Is he a chronic flirt who is looking for opportunities for other women's attention? She will likely think about him in total, and make up her mind if it's a deal breaker or not. 
If she is all "numb" and doesn't care to be with him any more and has mentally thrown the f.u. switch---- he's done most likely. Then again, if she is so angry and such, she likely still loves him. It's if she gets indifferent to him that he's screwed. He's way better off if she is mad. Her being numb is actually pretty scary if I were in his shoes. I'd hope like heck that she is mad as hell and not numb.

Numb/indifferent----- That is NOT where he wants to be if he wants to have a good marriage. You are correct in being concerned.

What do you think of your bro-in-law? Is he a trustworthy dude? Are YOU?? I personally have to wonder if you are married yourself and are going to bachelor parties with alcohol and strippers present. That is just not trustworthy behavior for any man.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Well, your friend has certainly caused severe damage to his marriage. Not to mention that he has devastated and destroyed his wife. Your friend has some work cut out for him, and that’s not even working on the marriage yet, just himself. Counseling is his first order of fixing himself to be a spouse who is worthy of his marriage. He needs to find out why he would sit and kiss a person whom he barely knows. All the while he knows he has a ninth month old child at home, his priorities are lacking judgement, in a huge way. 

Where your friend sits now is not pleasant, I’m trying to be nice here, and it’s his wife’s choice to make. If she can’t or won’t take a cheater back is her prerogative, not his. Some can’t move past this, some can reconcile. I can tell you if she were here I would advise to file for divorce and then watch him for six months. Divorce usually takes time, but this way she won’t waste time by filing then gauging her husband. Divorce can always be stopped if she decides to reconcile. Also I advise to wait six months after immediately filing so her choice is not driven by emotions. 

So what should your friend do, I’m assuming besides stopping kissing of other women, move mountains for his wife. Prove with words followed by actions what he clearly wants. Find out why he CHOSE to destroy his marriage, humble himself and become a man of integrity. Be vulnerable to his wife, show her actions of love and trust, and communicate effectively. He must answer any and all questions his wife has, truthfully and sincerely. He must find remorse within himself, not regret. The only credit I can give to your friend is that he confessed, and I’m hoping it’s because your friend wasn’t worried she would find out some other way.


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## seadoug105 (Jan 12, 2018)

I assume that the story of your first wife's affair is something your wife knows about.... if that is the case then it is something she probably talked to her sister about. 

With that affair going on for so long with out you knowing. even while you were getting married... its entirely possible that it has caused her to take a worst case approach.

It is important that she learn from others and educate herself about what cheaters do - AKA "cheaters 101" & "the cheaters hand book"...

That being said... it is also extremely important that she understand that not every person or situation is the same. This kiss does mean he has boundary issues and potentially personal issue he needs to address.... but it doesn't mean he has been having an affair for the last year and a half.

Best of luck to you and them!


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

I've had WAY more exciting things happen in Vegas than that, but I can't post them on the internet! 

In all honesty though they just need to sit down and openly discuss this. There are probably other issues behind it that need to be addressed for her to be this upset about a quick drunken kiss at a bachelor party. Has he had any other indiscretions or is there any other reason she doesn't trust him? Is she just worried and hypersensitive because she was cheated on in the past? Is their marriage already rocky? Is she jealous because after having a kid he's not spending appropriate amounts of time/attention with her? Is she looking for an excuse to bail on the relationship?


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Your friend was dead wrong to kiss the girl at the club. Good for him admitting it too his wife. This should not end a marriage though unless there have been other issues. 

It’s funny how some can rip your friend to shreds for just a kiss. 

While others have said what’s to big deal of wives and gfs going to Vegas and other places dancing and grinding on strangers. While letting these guys buy them drinks. It’s just dancing right.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

ReformedHubby said:


> Over a kiss? I get that some have a zero tolerance policy but that sounds extreme to me. I would think they should put appropriate boundaries in place and try to work through it. He seems to be willing to do that.


Yes over a kiss, a betrayal is a betrayal in my book. Justified today a kiss, then it’s more.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Yes over a kiss, a betrayal is a betrayal in my book. Justified today a kiss, then it’s more.


Does't it depend what kind of a kiss it was?

Peck on the cheek?

Peck on the lips?

Tongue kissing?


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

But they don't live in Vegas right? There is no contact between the "hip gyrator" and your bud right? Bachelor parties get out of hand real quick. I would be thinking, thank heavens it was ONLY a kiss by a stupid bimbo wanting a bigger tip from dancing...

But, I do wonder if something else is at play here....I just don't see a woman wanting to become a SINGLE MOM over something kinda stupid and yet trivial. Should he be in HOT WATER. Most definitely. Should he be getting a lawyer, extreme.

I do wonder if the shoe was on the other foot... Or what is she NOT telling him she did on her batchelorette party?


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> Over a kiss? I get that some have a zero tolerance policy but that sounds extreme to me. I would think they should put appropriate boundaries in place and try to work through it. He seems to be willing to do that.


Lol I love it how they both have to "work through" it because buddy felt horny and wanted to bang this broad. Yes they "only" kissed but you bet he thought about it. 

This isn't minor...congrats gentlemen had this been buddy at home and fiance was in a club and her girlfriends brought some guys over and she kissed one of them, the pitchforks would be out...no doubt telling buddy not to go through with the marriage.

He cheated. Fleeting kiss (according to him), flirting, another woman on his mind. She trusted him, she has his child and that's for life and now she's questioning the integrity of the man she pledged to live her life with. What else has he done, what other women has he been in contact with, has he done this before?

Promises never to go out and never to drink are not realistic because he will eventually..

But I guess she needs to "work through it"

p.s No she doesn't. She should get rid but ultimately up to her..especially if buddy is all pouty face and pleady


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

BarbedFenceRider said:


> But they don't live in Vegas right? There is no contact between the "hip gyrator" and your bud right? Bachelor parties get out of hand real quick. I would be thinking, thank heavens it was ONLY a kiss by a stupid bimbo wanting a bigger tip from dancing...
> 
> But, I do wonder if something else is at play here....I just don't see a woman wanting to become a SINGLE MOM over something kinda stupid and yet trivial. Should he be in HOT WATER. Most definitely. Should he be getting a lawyer, extreme.
> 
> I do wonder if the shoe was on the other foot... *Or what is she NOT telling him she did on her batchelorette party?*


This is both ridiculous and predictable. You'd think by now I would stop being surprised....


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

I think it would be wise to get your friend to come in here and tell the story himself. 

I don’t know of anyone that would throw away a marriage over a drunken kiss that was admitted to. 

He might have cheated in the past and this is a breach of the R they have going. 

Or

She knows what she is capable of herself.


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## calmwinds (Dec 10, 2012)

I think the fact that the wife in question is nine months post-partum. Not that the kissing shouldn't be a big deal. It is. BUT, post-partum hormones, up to and sometimes beyond a year can really throw a woman's emotions into an abyss WITHOUT her husband kissing a h0bag. So, that may be the reason (although it would be unhealthy to any individual that might wish to bring it to her attention) for her jump to divorce talk, barring she had had incidents with him before


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

calmwinds said:


> I think the fact that the wife in question is nine months post-partum. Not that the kissing shouldn't be a big deal. It is. BUT, post-partum hormones, up to and sometimes beyond a year can really throw a woman's emotions into an abyss WITHOUT her husband kissing a h0bag. So, that may be the reason (although it would be unhealthy to any individual that might wish to bring it to her attention) for her jump to divorce talk, barring she had had incidents with him before


Oh. My. God.


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## calmwinds (Dec 10, 2012)

Not sure exactly what that means. If you notice, I did not discredit her reaction, ESPECIALLY if he was already a scumbag. Simply attempting to answer the many questioners who ask "OVER a KISS?" question. If this statement somehow offends you in any way, I'm sorry.


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

Thank you....

For all that it was...It was still just a kiss. Yeah, had my wife did that, I'd be hell pissed. And some serious tongue lashing would be in effect. But divorce? Something else is going on.

And yes... He felt the need to confess this kiss right away. He didn't wait years down the road either. WTF?!

So if it was the female cheating or denying sex, hormones and medical condition apply. But if the male does it, she is perfectly sound to set off the atom bomb and destroy a marriage. Whatever.

Is he a dumb ass? Yes! Is she seriously not thinking straight? Yes. As for OP, make sure the friend keeps his head straight and his little head put away in his pants! And for the wife, I'd let her know what a serious fool she is and find out why she is thinking THIS is the best way forward.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

What people tell strangers on the internet to do and what they will do themselves often bear little resemblance to each other. With no data to back it up, I would guess that 4 out of 5 people on this thread telling them to divorce over a bachelor party kiss would rationalize a way to work through the issue if it was their spouse in question.

Everyone's smarter than average, better looking, a good investor, and would kick their spouse to the curb for looking at them sideways. Adjust your reactions accordingly.


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## calmwinds (Dec 10, 2012)

BarbedFenceRider said:


> Thank you....
> 
> For all that it was...It was still just a kiss. Yeah, had my wife did that, I'd be hell pissed. And some serious tongue lashing would be in effect. But divorce? Something else is going on.
> 
> ...



I did not say hormones were an excuse for cheating. I SAID hormones could be responsible for irrational feelings


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

Just for the record, I have disagreements with POI and others on alot of things, but I do equally agree on others as well. But for the sake of this thread, I DO respect the opinions and commentary. And do value what they say. Or I wouldn't be here. Like Cletus said, take it for what it's worth. An internet thread....


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## azimuth (May 15, 2018)

It's good to know that kissing other people at clubs is acceptable behavior in a marriage.


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## Jharp (Jun 8, 2018)

beenbetrayed said:


> He is 33. She is 35



Was he super drunk and or on drugs? I see guys and gals do **** drunk/High they would never do otherwise.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> What people tell strangers on the internet to do and what they will do themselves often bear little resemblance to each other. With no data to back it up, I would guess that 4 out of 5 people on this thread telling them to divorce over a bachelor party kiss would rationalize a way to work through the issue if it was their spouse in question.
> 
> Everyone's smarter than average, better looking, a good investor, and would kick their spouse to the curb for looking at them sideways. Adjust your reactions accordingly.


:iagree: What you said times a thousand. Being behind the keyboard does make people tougher. Honestly people are tough when its not their relationship in real life too. I think we've all been advised to dump someone by a friend, only to see the same said friend stick with their significant other when similar circumstances occur in that relationship. I really don't think we have been given enough info here to advise divorce.


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

azimuth said:


> It's good to know that kissing other people at clubs is acceptable behavior in a marriage.



...And begin.


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## azimuth (May 15, 2018)

BarbedFenceRider said:


> ...And begin.


I'm projecting what?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

azimuth said:


> I'm projecting what?


Not acceptable != marriage extinction level event

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## azimuth (May 15, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Not acceptable != marriage extinction level event
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Exactly, kissing others at clubs is acceptable within the marriage. That's what you're saying right? Husbands and wives can freely go to Vegas and party with strangers of the opposite sex and kiss people because that's not deserving of ending the marriage.

Apparently this woman is hysterical for even considering it. She trusted her husband to go on this trip and he broke her trust. He didn't cherish her or respect her. So what are the options? What kind of consequences? He's a man of low character. At the end of the day they "work through it" and their marriage is exactly the same. Unless you think kissing is not cheating?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How did she find out? Did he just tell her? Or did someone else tell her?

Here is a book that might help them if they both read it and do what the book suggests.

After the Affair: Healing the Pain and Rebuilding Trust When a Partner Has Been Unfaithful'


{Yes I know it was not an affair. But a lot of what both of them need to talk about and change in their relationship is in that book. Maybe if she saw that there is a way to put this behind them, she can start looking at finding a way to trust him.}


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

azimuth said:


> It's good to know that kissing other people at clubs is acceptable behavior in a marriage.


Different people, different relationships have different levels of acceptable.

I would not nuke my marriage over something like this - actually it probably wouldn't get much more than a shoulder shrug from me, and a "don't do that in front of friends, they won't understand". 

You really can't extrapolate what is "acceptable" in marriage for other people. We can offer advice on how to fix the damage etc....

But we can't say someone should simply accept this, nor that they should obliterate their marriage because of it. Different strokes for different folks.

The Linda McDonald guide for healing your partner is another good one for steps to repair the damage.


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## azimuth (May 15, 2018)

I shouldnthave said:


> Different people, different relationships have different levels of acceptable.
> 
> I would not nuke my marriage over something like this - actually it probably wouldn't get much more than a shoulder shrug from me, and a "don't do that in front of friends, they won't understand".
> 
> ...



We can extrapolate what's acceptable for her since OP said this:


> She’s devastated and doesn’t see herself ever trusting him again. She’s talking about leaving


So she doesn't trust her husband anymore, and is having problems with the kiss. Many people would consider it cheating and aren't as cool as you are with their husbands kissing other women at clubs.

OP since he did this so easily with a wife and 9mo baby at home, I would ask him if he's feeling like he wants to be single again. Maybe he feels trapped by the baby and not ready for family life. I would suggest him going to counseling to figure out how he could let it get to that point. If I were his wife that's what I would want him to do, to really think about what he wants and how he feels about the marriage.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

calmwinds said:


> I did not say hormones were an excuse for cheating. I SAID hormones could be responsible for irrational feelings


Barbfencerider (ouch), I see what you are saying, it seems that divorce is a total overreaction to a 'small' indiscretion. However, it is not simply about the kiss in itself. This wife has learned something about her husband which she did not know before

1. He obviously cannot be trusted, trust is a fragile thing, trust can be broken over small or big incidents. Bottom line, he broke her trust
2. He lied to her (she found out through other means or he knew she would because people who knew her were there). She is wondering would he have said anything is no-one would know
3. Her H's character is seriously flawed, he has no boundaries. What would he do when no one is watching, how far would he go?
4. He didn't think of her at all, he didn't give a **** about the impact on her
5. If she does not blow up his world now, then it will be a small matter, they go on about their lives, she will be in pain and he could well do something more serious as there were no consequences. 

So this is not about the simple matter of the kiss, it is all the surrounding emotions, fears, hurt. She has to take decisive action now to win the war so that her WH knows that he will lose her if he ever dares do this again. As humans we are sinful and selfish, he is that, but he ought to have self-control so while it may seem like a simple matter, this kiss has undermined the very foundation of their marriage and she has every right to feel hurt, angry and go ballistic on him and dump him if she feels she can no longer trust him. Most of us may not do that but that is entirely her perogative.


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## NJ2 (Mar 22, 2017)

Speaking from experience -I know that finding out your H kissed another girl is devastating. My H confessed to kissing 4 other girls (while drunk, out of town, and on the dance floor....) He says it happened 20-25 years ago. He also admitted he went into a private room with one then changed his mind and left, another asked him up to her hotel room but he didnt go. 

I will never know if it went further, I will never know if there were more than 4, I will never know if it will happen again.

I do know that at the time he did it because he thought he could get away with it. It was a cheap thrill. A way to validate that he still was attractive to the opposite sex. I also know that it literally meant nothing. It did not decrease his love for me. It did not make me less attractive to him. It had very little effect on him at all. It was stupid, inconsiderate, disrespectful and showed quite clearly he had poor boundaries. 

It also was proof positive that we were not connected in any intimate way. We had small children, we were busy with our careers and paying bills and looking after parents. We had separate hobbies and friends. We were together but alone.
I also had an A (no intercourse but fooled around) around that time. What I did lasted 6 months and began as an EA. What I did was so much more damaging to the marriage. It was despicable and disgusts me. It involved feelings and planning and shared dreams and memories that were so much more of a betrayal.

I'm not saying that what he did was ok. I'm saying that it is a symptom. Go to MC and find a way to better communicate with each other. Find a clearer way of meeting each others needs and becoming emotionally intimate again. But divorce?......nah...work on the marriage- it is infinately easier to work on the marriage than to work out a divorce.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> Does't it depend what kind of a kiss it was?
> 
> Peck on the cheek?
> 
> ...


Really no it depends on the boundrys of the relationship. Some are ok with things others aren’t. Some kissing another woman is no biggie and others it is. So just depends on the relationship. Clearly what happend in this scenario WAS a big deal. That’s all that matters


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

It would kill me if my hubby kissed another woman on the mouth. Because it's intimate. He has this way of holding my face and kissing me that i know he would transfer to anyone he kisses. It's special and precious to me. To know that he shared that would be devastating. 

However, if he had a lap dance but no touching....i would be fine. He had in the past attended a few birthdays and bachelor parties where they had strippers. For some reason people buy him lap dances because they think he needs the excitement. I guess they think he is sexually deprived at home.-🤣 I don't have a problem with that because as soon as he comes home I hear all about it. And someone would meet me and say, "all he had was a lap dance...nothing happened...". I know those fools would never be able to keep a secret for long.

I also, think a EA would wound me far more than a one night stand. But that's just me. We have been marriage for 25 years and have a very good. 
understanding of what would affect each other. We have very good boundaries and stay within them. 

And I scare the crap out of my husband. Because a cold Ann is not a pretty site.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Sight.....I can't edit from my phone.😭


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

I would feel numb too. And would have difficulty ever trusting him again. I probably wouldn't. I'd also worry a lot less about my own boundaries when I went out. What's good for the gander ....


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

azimuth said:


> Exactly, kissing others at clubs is acceptable within the marriage. That's what you're saying right? Husbands and wives can freely go to Vegas and party with strangers of the opposite sex and kiss people because that's not deserving of ending the marriage.
> 
> Apparently this woman is hysterical for even considering it. She trusted her husband to go on this trip and he broke her trust. He didn't cherish her or respect her. So what are the options? What kind of consequences? He's a man of low character. At the end of the day they "work through it" and their marriage is exactly the same. Unless you think kissing is not cheating?


I don't think anyone is saying its acceptable. Its deplorable. I think what we're debating is is a kiss a reason to file for divorce. I think that filing for divorce over a kiss is extreme. Honestly if I grew up without a dad in my home and my mom told me she divorced him over a kiss I would be like, "Really?". I also couldn't imagine anyone telling their parents and close family members they immediately filed for divorce over a kiss. I think the reactions wouldn't exactly be supportive, I think most would view it as an over reaction in real life as opposed to the message board responses. I see divorcing over a kiss as throwing the baby out with the bath water (no pun intended). 

With that said I understand that others have different boundaries. I do think those on here that have kissing as a hard boundary would be hurt more by that kind of betrayal, but I don't think anyone would actually file over it. Based on personal experience I do know one man who divorced his wife over a kiss, he literally moved out after she tearfully confessed...but...he didn't want her anyway, he used it as an out, he soon married a much younger prettier woman. In all honesty he wasn't all that invested in his marriage to begin with, he was ready to move on. If she does indeed file for divorce, I can only assume he doesn't have other redeeming qualities and she would rather not be married to him anyway.


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## azimuth (May 15, 2018)

Divorce doesn’t mean the dad isn’t raising his child anymore wth.

What I’m saying is that if they work through it and he stays, then the end result is that the husband (or wife) can kiss people...it’s acceptable within the marriage. Not a dealbreaker. And if the wife was uncomfortable with it, well too damn bad. The decision has been made for her. His behavior forces her to change her boundaries.

In the end is a guy who’s acting single and enjoying the party scene. I don’t think they have a strong bond/foundation in the first place, for him to do this. And he will do it again.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Sure. It was just a kiss. And the wife in this scenario is supposed to know that, for a fact, how exactly? If I found out my partner was hanging out with strange women (Strippers, party girls, hookers? Who were these women, exactly?) all night in Vegas on a bachelor party weekend with his buddies who were apparently doing the same, and he told me he just kissed someone, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't really believe him. Because clearly he's lacking in boundaries. And every single WS in the history of forever has said, at least once, "We just kissed!" And the vast majority of them have been lying about that. She's probably waiting for it to turn into "It was just a BJ! I swear we didn't have sex!" before it eventually becomes "We had sex, but it didn't mean anything." 

So, OP, it may help if your buddy can offer some evidence from someone else - that she trusts - that he didn't, in fact, kiss this woman there in front of everyone then go off somewhere with her - or anyone else - for a little something extra. If he can't do that, then she's probably thinking he's just like every other WS: trying to cover his ass by trickling the truth out, only as much as he has to, a little bit at a time. That feeling is going to be compounded if he has any history at all of poor boundaries. And I'm guessing he does, since they were so poor this time.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

This is one of those cases where I absolutely know if this had happened with a woman at a bachelorette party, people would be calling for children to be DNA and the thread would be ranting about the evils of girls nights out. It's a double standard. I wouldn't divorce over this, but you better believe we'd be reading some books and having some hard discussions and probably going to marriage counseling.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

azimuth said:


> Divorce doesn’t mean the dad isn’t raising his child anymore wth.
> 
> What I’m saying is that if they work through it and he stays, then the end result is that the husband (or wife) can kiss people...it’s acceptable within the marriage. Not a dealbreaker. And if the wife was uncomfortable with it, well too damn bad. The decision has been made for her. His behavior forces her to change her boundaries.


Its ok to disagree, I'll admit I disagree with this post too. It only says its acceptable behavior if there are no consequences IMO. Clearly it isn't acceptable to her. I don't think it needs to go as far as divorce to say that its unacceptable. He is about to lose his wife over it, and she is upset, those are real consequences. He seems to really care that he has upset her. That's the start of remorse. Maybe its something he could learn from and turn around. I wouldn't advise this if the OP said he had done something like this before.

Also, speaking from experience I agree that you can be an awesome dad if you are divorced....but its not the same as being a dad *in* the home. Throwing that away shouldn't be taken lightly. Of course I'm also assuming he is supportive and there for her otherwise, but....if he isn't she wouldn't be losing much. Its too vague of a situation to be at the extreme end of either side of the argument. But...its fun to debate.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

What I'm thinking is likely what the wife is thinking:

If he'd have that kind of fun with a stripper with her brother in the room, what would the idiot be doing with no eyes on him.

What he did was stupid. Was it an isolated incident that never happened before and won't happen after? Nobody knows but OP's bro-in-law.

If she divorces him and she has no other evidence of cheating, she's a hard case. If she divorces him and this was the last straw she's a wise woman. 

Advice to OP: Don't go to bachelor parties with strippers anymore. Or hope what happens in Vegas stay in Vegas.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Evinrude58 said:


> What I'm thinking is likely what the wife is thinking:
> 
> If he'd have that kind of fun with a stripper with her brother in the room, what would the idiot be doing with no eyes on him.
> 
> ...


On a side note I will say that men's bachelor parties are much, MUCH worse than bachelorette parties. Sex does happen at a lot of them, sometimes with the groom to be, but almost always with a handful of party attendees that are married men. Honestly I have seen grooms do all kinds of things with their future brother-in-laws standing right there cheering them on. Sometimes I wonder if I live in an alternative reality. Many of things folks find shocking in here happen quite frequently in the real world. With that said I am not saying that it makes any of it okay or acceptable. Now that I've posted this I'm sure someone will post that they went golfing, hunting, fishing or camping for their bachelor party. That happens too, but for the most part bachelor parties are down and dirty.


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## azimuth (May 15, 2018)

Evinrude58 said:


> What I'm thinking is likely what the wife is thinking:
> 
> If he'd have that kind of fun with a stripper with her brother in the room, what would the idiot be doing with no eyes on him.
> 
> ...



It's my understanding from the OP that they were regular girls, not strippers.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

azimuth said:


> It's my understanding from the OP that they were regular girls, not strippers.


This actually makes it worse, IMO.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Yeah, I have not ever been exposed to what seems "normal" for some people. 

I never had a bachelor party, never even considered having one. If my buds had given me one and brought strippers, I would assume that they'd try to get me a lap dance and therefore I wouldn't want any part of that. But my buds wouldn't do that, because for all of us--- that would be trashy and shameful. Why would anyone want to betray their partner that they think so highly of that they want to marry, right when they should be in the newest part of being in love with them? It makes no sense to me.

And a bro in law "cheering him on"....... Yeah, that would be an automatic physical confrontation were a guy make an attempt to cheat on my sister in front of me. And I would put great pressure on my sister to back out of the wedding. 

I don't understand how some people think. I wasn't taught that cheating is o.k.. in any circumstance.

That's what I don't get about today's society. I do bad things once in a while. But I know I did wrong and can admit I did wrong. Seems like people do wrong today and then act like it's an acceptable thing to do. What's right is wrong and what's wrong is right. Weird stuff.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

One thing the gf/wife doesn't want to become is "the old lady", "the old ball and chain". You know, the nagging, distrustful old hag who's always on his case about being out late with "his buddies".

I couldn't live with that and I wouldn't wish it on any other woman.

Divorce over a kiss? I can't definitively say. But if I stayed married [good chance of it, I'm in my 50's], I'd just become that more detached. Care a little less. Have my own life a little bit more.

I've said it before, probably say it again: if you have to have a nasty-ass bachelor/ette party---you're in no state of mind to get married.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

One Eighty said:


> So in one breath you say its an unbelievable overreaction. In the next you say you have witnessed it yourself.
> 
> Let me tell you, as a man who's wife not only kissed another but then let him cum inside her and get her pregnant and I'm still with her, sort of, well let me tell you there are 100 shades of gray and if this woman thinks a kiss is one shade of gray too dark for her, I salute her and her choice to end that marriage. Rather than live in the hell I live in.


I'm sorry for what happened to you. But I can't say I see it as apples to apples. The person I know that left his wife over a kiss wasn't hurt by her betrayal. He was happy. He had his "out". A reason to leave her without being seen as the bad guy. I also don't see full on sex and getting pregnant or impregnating someone the same thing as a kiss either. I am not trying to discount what you've gone through, but at the same time I can't say the situations are comparable, what your wife did is significantly worse in my opinion. But with that said its just my opinion...from reading this thread there are many that would equate impregnation and a kiss as the same level of betrayal. I actually understand that, because several have experienced betrayal before.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

One Eighty said:


> So in one breath you say its an unbelievable overreaction. In the next you say you have witnessed it yourself.
> 
> Let me tell you, as a man who's wife not only kissed another but then let him cum inside her and get her pregnant and I'm still with her, sort of, well let me tell you there are 100 shades of gray and if this woman thinks a kiss is one shade of gray too dark for her, I salute her and her choice to end that marriage. Rather than live in the hell I live in.


Dude.


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> This is one of those cases where I absolutely know if this had happened with a woman at a bachelorette party, people would be calling for children to be DNA and the thread would be ranting about the evils of girls nights out. It's a double standard. I wouldn't divorce over this, but you better believe we'd be reading some books and having some hard discussions and probably going to marriage counseling.


I agree to a point. There seems to be a few lines of thought on this thread. To clarify...Buddy was kissed by a stripper in vegas during a guys stag party. There was NO intercourse known as of yet. (Were using Clintonesque speak here). He felt guilty and told fiance. Fiance is pissed and thinking of ditching him.

I do think if there was MORE than kissing and something else that I missed, yeah...No bueno. And if the situation was reversed, POI is correct. Pitchforks would be wailing. Rightfully so in either case.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

The titlke of this thread scared me. 

For a moment there I thought OP's wife had pulled a train on a group of clowns from Circus Circus.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Little people dressed as clowns. 

:laugh:


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

As the old saying goes: 

What happens in Vegas...

... gets posted on TAM!


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> The titlke of this thread scared me.
> 
> For a moment there I thought OP's wife had pulled a train on a group of clowns from Circus Circus.


No no no! Don't go there!!!


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> This is one of those cases where I absolutely know if this had happened with a woman at a bachelorette party, people would be calling for children to be DNA and the thread would be ranting about the evils of girls nights out. It's a double standard. I wouldn't divorce over this, but you better believe we'd be reading some books and having some hard discussions and probably going to marriage counseling.


You hit the nail on the head. Double standards and all that!


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

I am all for her leaving. Married people going out of town to Vegas for a bachelor party? I am surprised so many women give in to this idiotic "tradition". The man is married but needs to leave his wife and go to Vegas for multiple days to visit strippers. Divorce.


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## Steelman (Mar 5, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> Over a kiss? I get that some have a zero tolerance policy but that sounds extreme to me. I would think they should put appropriate boundaries in place and try to work through it. He seems to be willing to do that.


I hear you- this board is full of people that have been burned and the advice strikes me as being pretty extreme much of the time. It's like "if I got divorced, well darn it, you will too."

It was a crappy deed, but a drunken kiss with a stripper I don't think is something a couple should never be able to get over. Jeeze.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> I'm sorry for what happened to you. But I can't say I see it as apples to apples. The person I know that left his wife over a kiss wasn't hurt by her betrayal. He was happy. He had his "out". A reason to leave her without being seen as the bad guy. I also don't see full on sex and getting pregnant or impregnating someone the same thing as a kiss either. I am not trying to discount what you've gone through, but at the same time I can't say the situations are comparable, what your wife did is significantly worse in my opinion. But with that said its just my opinion...from reading this thread there are many that would equate impregnation and a kiss as the same level of betrayal. I actually understand that, because several have experienced betrayal before.


Getting as kiss is not getting an "out".
It is a PA.
Everyone has their own point of how far is enough to become too far and
they cannot get past that and want a divorce.

edit to add

Countless WW's have admitted to the: we just kissed. And, they were lying.


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