# Redefine NICE GUY VERSUS DOORMAT..my venting



## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

The last couple days, this topic seems to have come up a lot and I want to have an open conversation about it in order to help some of the men here. The topic is being the "Nice Guy".

There's a book "No More Mr. Nice Guy". All too often we hear "I'm non-confrontational…I'm a NICE guy". 

I'm tired of this mislabeling.

We need to start differentiating the idea of a "Nice Guy" versus a "Doormat Guy"

Here is the definition of Nice in how it applies to personality. No where does it say, non-confrontational, accepts being disrespected, puts oneself lower in status than the others around them.

Nice: pleasing; agreeable; delightful: a nice visit. amiably pleasant; kind: They are always nice to strangers. 

Here's the definition of doormat in how it applies to personality.

Doormat: Slang One who submits meekly to domination or mistreatment by others. Informal a person who offers little resistance to ill-treatment by others

Let's define a strong "manly" man, or "Alpha" if you will (not alpha by the book just the perception) in regards to how he acts in a relationship.
Demands respect
Confronts issues when problems arise
Stands up for himself
Has a strong sense of self
Demands others to treat him as well as he treats others

Now the big question. Can you be those things and be NICE? Yes Can you be those things and be a DOORMAT? No.

For those who make excuses for themselves about being a doormat by calling yourself "NICE", you need to stop. You need to recognize what you are and what you aren't. That's the first step to fixing yourself. Be honest with yourself. As much as it hurts to say "I've been a doormat" in a relationship, it's also empowering, because a TRULY nice guy, can't stop being a "Nice guy" but a DOORMAT, usually wants to stop being a doormat. By properly defining yourself, you're giving yourself the motivation to make a positive change.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Good post.

I'm married to a very nice guy & I wipe my feet on a doormat


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## UserAwaitingDeletion (Jan 15, 2012)

Spot on - no need to ever be rude or nasty to be firm!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Confronts issues when problems arise
> Stands up for himself
> Demands others to treat him as well as he treats others


Not real sure your spouse is going to be labeling you as nice when you do any of these things.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

On another forum I'm on, which is pretty much entirely women with a focus on homebirth, natural parenting and feminism we talk about the Inner Good Girl. The part of us that is afraid to cause conflict, who wants everyone happy and comfortable. Who is afraid to question anyone in authority, particularly those in the medical profession. 

Maybe Nice Guy, as opposed to guy who is nice?


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I saw a new poster admit to being a "doormat" in his post.

Progress!


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Great post OP

As a woman that appreciates and adores "nice guys" I get frustrated with the no more Mr Nice Guy references.

Nice guys are all that and more, they are good men. Good role models for future men.

I would not be with a man that wasn't a nice guy but I have no desire to be with a door mat.
A door mat to me is self depreciating, weak willed, insipid.

I think men try to box themselves in too much trying not to be a nice guy. 

My man is a nice guy with me, he is kind, caring, romantic, attentive and loads of fun.
He is alpha in his career and very successful.
He is alpha when it comes to our sex life which I find incredibly sexy.
He is the perfect combination for me.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I am married to a Genuine Nice Guy. He is not much of a confronter by nature, but I feel this is largely due to his temperament makeup.... When I learned of his "1 out of 16" type... the ISFJ  .. I almost fell off my chair laughing...but yet I was amazed.....it was sooooo HIM. If any type is most prone to being a DOORMAT.....it IS this temperament ~ It is even mentioned in the ISFJ's Profile - for goodness sake. This however, does not mean my husband is ~ I am just pointing out what it said. 


Good thing I'm not a Witch.







He knew I had a very soft sensitive side when he met me in my teens, otherwise he wouldn't have wanted me. 

However I am the Confronter ~ I enjoy it !......but my reasoning is...I want peace & harmony in my relationships & my marriage ...Also Justice is important to me......I love & adore my husband & many of his ways, I wouldn't trade him for anything in this world... He does it for me... And he's got the patience I lack... he gets me to laugh at myself & calm my feisty azz down at times.. ..But that just makes us good together. 

Some men really need help overcoming some of these things.... I hate to see them spit upon, it really ticks me off - especially from the ALpha males who think they are far superior...I call BS, they have their issues too. And the women who abuse ...what does this speak about them......Personally I think all the nice Guys ought to kick the bi*ches to the curb... I'd support them a 100%...but that is manning up ...after all.

I like the book "No More Mr nice Guy"....I bought it just for curiosity, we went through some of the beginning pages together, he fit some of those, and some more like half truths. 

I love & accept him as he is.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Not real sure your spouse is going to be labeling you as nice when you do any of these things.


I'm curious why you say this?

My wife thinks I'm one of the nicest guys in the world. 

You don't have to confront an issue like a jerk. You can still confront things "nicely"
If anyone, my wife included, was dumping on me, I'm going to address it and not accept it. But I can still be a nice guy.
I try to treat everyone with the upmost in respect. I will give you the shirt off my back if you are in need. And specifically to my wife, I'm an incredibly loving and attentive to her needs. But I do expect the same in return. If I give my wife the respect she deserves and she doesn't return that respect, she's going to hear about it. That doesn't define me as "not nice".


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

It doesn't surprise me you are one of those Nicer men Dad&Hubby...as I noticed your posts from the very beginning....was impressed with the depth -just about all resonated with me...but I am terribly biased towards the GOOD guys. 

Your chosen username speaks to your devotion to family. :smthumbup:


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> I'm curious why you say this?
> 
> My wife thinks I'm one of the nicest guys in the world.
> 
> ...


Brilliant post


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> It doesn't surprise me you are one of those Nicer men Dad&Hubby...as I noticed your posts from the very beginning....was impressed with the depth -just about all resonated with me...but I am terribly biased towards the GOOD guys.
> 
> Your chosen username speaks to your devotion to family. :smthumbup:


Thank you SA. Your post earlier also resonated with me because I USED to be a doormat. In my first marriage, I was the CLASSIC doormat. I read alot of these posts and I see where these guys struggle and I know the feelings they're going through because I lived it for 6 years. I woke up one morning was getting ready for work and looked at myself in the mirror and couldn't identify with who was looking back at me. That's when changes were made and my divorce happened etc. I was speaking with my best friend throughout my life and he summed me up during that period as "Man, I was looking at you and it was like you didn't have your soul anymore." That sucked but it helped me realize the difference between being the nice guy I always was, and being a doormat. 

It is easier for a nice guy to become a doormat, I agree with that assessment you made earlier.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

I think I'm the poster child for this conversation.

I used to be the doormat nice guy w/ alph wife that led to a sexless marriage after ILYNILWYA... I got much better over almost three years.

I'm still "A Nice Guy" but now I'm very quick to stand up for myself against my wife.

Its sort of the I'll be Nice unless you cross me then it will be dealt with in a quick matter.

I'm a better father... kids know who's in charge. They think Moms crazy.
More decisive and when it comes down to it I make the final say on family decisions.
My wife defers to me on any family issues.

You can be Nice just don't be a doormat.
Sometimes Men have to be woken up...I was.
I'm creating a new marriage.
Not afraid at all to stand up for myself against my wife.
She awoke a new husband after ILYNILWYA she is falling in love with her new husband.

In the end its easier and more satisfying to fix the wife you have.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

I'm married to a nice guy..we've been together 25 years and i adore him. Can't stand blokes who are too too alpha.

I also believe there is a big difference between nice and doormat.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE my nice guy.

Long live the nice guy!!


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Dad&Hubby said:


> I'm curious why you say this?
> 
> If I give my wife the respect she deserves and she doesn't return that respect, she's going to hear about it. That doesn't define me as "not nice".


I say this because people generally have different ways of looking at things and men and women in particular have some very well characterized differences. Miscommunication and misunderstanding seem to abound in a lot of the male female dialog especially regarding sensitive issues. This results in marriage partners feeling "hurt" and finding themselves concluding that the partner who hurt them is not "nice".

But first and foremost, I'm here to learn. Could I ask you please to give me some pointers on how I can confront issues, stand up for myself and demand to be treated as well as I treat my partner without having her feel that I'm not being "nice"?

Believe me, I need the help and I can use any suggestion you can give me later on this evening and see how it works for me


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Speaking as a woman, I think it's very possible for a guy who's trying to be 'alpha' to turn into a bully when demanding respect or standing up for himself. It's all in how it comes out -- you can demand respect in a 'nice' way; most importantly, by being worthy of respect. A dictator can demand respect, for example, but what he will get instead is fear. 

A nice man can stand up for himself with strength that doesn't cross the line into demeaning the other person to make himself feel better. A truly nice man won't resort to that kind of behavior.

Thanks for starting this thread, OP. I totally agree with you. I don't think 'Nice' and 'Alpha' are mutually exclusive. And I don't think 'Nice' and 'Doormat' are the same thing.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

angelpixie said:


> you can demand respect in a 'nice' way; most importantly, by being worthy of respect


If you don't mind my asking, I'm looking for suggestions on how I can go about doing this since I have a lot of trouble being perceived as nice


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Based on my own experience in my soon-to-be-ended marriage, I would say that it's important to not be needy. Take care of responsibilities you've been given. When you've done something wrong, own up to it and fix it - don't shove the blame onto someone else. Be truthful and faithful to promises you've made.

So those things would be respectable behaviors in my book. Totally possible to be this and still be nice, which I would equate with kindness and empathy.

Does that help?


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

angelpixie said:


> Based on my own experience in my soon-to-be-ended marriage, I would say that it's important to not be needy. Take care of responsibilities you've been given. When you've done something wrong, own up to it and fix it - don't shove the blame onto someone else. Be truthful and faithful to promises you've made.
> 
> So those things would be respectable behaviors in my book. Totally possible to be this and still be nice, which I would equate with kindness and empathy.
> 
> Does that help?


Thanks very much for answering, but not really. These are all good things to do but I can do them all day long and still not be respected or even be actively disrespected. I'm really not seeing how to "demand respect in a 'nice' way"


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Thanks very much for answering, but not really. These are all good things to do but I can do them all day long and still not be respected or even be actively disrespected. I'm really not seeing how to "demand respect in a 'nice' way"


You enforce your boundaries. You can't make anyone do anything, but you can deliver "consequences" if you will for behavior.

If you friend is disrespectful to you, what can you do to "demand respect." You can't make him not belittle you, but you can enforce your boundaries. Perhaps it starts out by telling him that you will be happy to talk to him again when he can be respectful, then walking out of the bar. Maybe it means not doing the things that friends would do (such as help move a tree stump) while telling him that his lack of respect has caused a distance. It might even mean ending the friendship and demonstrating your own value.

Again, you can't make anyone do anything, but you can demonstrat your own value and self worth by sticking up for yourself and enforcing you own boundaries. Doing that will earn you respect.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Having read the book, one thing I came away with is that the term "Nice Guy" is daming with faint praise. It describes a person who's only real value, both to himself and to others, is in being perceived as a nice guy. Because of that, they avoid conflict or telling people no. They also avoid communicating their expectations and needs, so as not to be seen selfish or demanding. Being that Nice Guy becomes their identity. 

I don't see it about not being nice. Rather it is about being true to yourself rather than to some character or identity that you have created (the "Nice Guy").


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Thanks very much for answering, but not really. These are all good things to do but I can do them all day long and still not be respected or even be actively disrespected. I'm really not seeing how to "demand respect in a 'nice' way"


Okay so I'll give you a recent situation with me and my wife.

We were in our normal RUSH RUSH mode of trying to get out of the door for work etc. My wife snapped at me because she was feeling overwhelmed (not by me) at the moment. I put it in my mental notebook for later. Because if I addressed it at that moment it wouldn't have come across "nicely". I simply said "Lets reel this morning back in a bit". Then later that night, when kids were asleep and we were both relaxed at the end of the day I brought it up. "Hey, this morning when you snapped at me, it was kind of out of line. I know the morning can get hectic, but lets not lose sight of our respect for each other. I think you'd agree I deserve more respect than that?" I said it while she was snuggled up on me so physically she felt very safe in our relationship and I kept my tone very low and calm. Her response was "Yeah you're right, I was a little harsh. I'm sorry" 

Standing up for yourself in and of itself has nothing to do with being "Nice" or "Mean". It's the DELIVERY that does. I made sure my wife wasn't emotionally charged up so she'd be more receptive and I also made sure she felt very safe and secure so she wouldn't take my "criticism" to be anything more than it really was. My wife gives me a TREMENDOUS amount of respect, but every once in a blue moon she can snap about something if she's really frustrated. I NEVER let a single one of those moments go by without addressing them. PS at one point I did because I chalked it up to her personality...guess what...she snapped a lot more. (That was the Nice guy sliding into Doormat Mode for a moment). Needless to say, I learned my lessons and ALWAYS set my position in our relationship..I just do it NICELY :smthumbup:


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Excellent example!


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I guess I am having trouble defining what a nice guy is. I've learned my lesson that even a guy with that "aw shucks, anything for you" demeanour is going to want to extract his pound of flesh sooner or later.

I imagine that my fiancé's EA might have thought he's a "nice guy / doormat" considering some of the grovelling e-mails that I read from him to her.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Then later that night, when kids were asleep and we were both relaxed at the end of the day I brought it up. "Hey, this morning when you snapped at me, it was kind of out of line. I know the morning can get hectic, but lets not lose sight of our respect for each other. I think you'd agree I deserve more respect than that?" I said it while she was snuggled up on me so physically she felt very safe in our relationship and I kept my tone very low and calm. Her response was "Yeah you're right, I was a little harsh. I'm sorry"


Thanks dude. I'll run this exact scenario tonight and write back with the results. I can use it word for word. It's a no lose situation for me because my wife already thinks I'm not "nice" so the worst case here is more of the same. Btw, would you recommend that I bring this up before or after sex?



Dad&Hubby said:


> I made sure my wife wasn't emotionally charged up so she'd be more receptive and I also made sure she felt very safe and secure


Not for certain I can make sure she feels anything as per TallAverageGuy's post above but I'll give it my best male effort and I'm not really incapable


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I like the OP's post, but I think the term "nice guy" came about as a sarcastic way to describe that doormat dude partly because so many doormat dudes describe themselves as "nice guys" when they're whining about how badly they are being treated.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> I like the OP's post, but I think the term "nice guy" came about as a sarcastic way to describe that doormat dude partly because so many doormat dudes describe themselves as "nice guys" when they're whining about how badly they are being treated.


BINGO!!!

But there are GENUINE nice guys, who are very giving etc. who won't be doormats. I'm hoping some of the doormat guys open their eyes and recognize, they don't need to do a TOTAL BODY TRANSFORMATION , They just need to realize their worth and have expectations that they should "get as good as you give."


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Again, you can't make anyone do anything, but you can demonstrat your own value and self worth by sticking up for yourself and enforcing you own boundaries. Doing that will earn you respect.


No doubt about the respect part, just wondering whether I can still be perceived as "nice" when I stick up for myself and enforce my own boundaries


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I guess I am having trouble defining what a nice guy is. I've learned my lesson that even a guy with that "aw shucks, anything for you" demeanour is going to want to extract his pound of flesh sooner or later.
> 
> I imagine that my fiancé's EA might have thought he's a "nice guy / doormat" considering some of the grovelling e-mails that I read from him to her.


Number 1. A NICE guy wouldn't have an EA. A NICE guy is a guy who self monitors so he's aware of himself and his surroundings and cares enough about his relationship to put his partner on even par with himself.

Number 2. The "Aw shucks, anything for you" guy is a lot harder to define. Some doormats act that way, some nice guys act that way (within reason though) and some players act that way because they do that for as long as it takes to get what they want. I have a feeling you dealt with a player who just used the "Aw shucks" move on you.

Number 3. You ex was becoming a doormat to the other woman. Be lucky your rid of him. He's got no solid inner core like a real man, and a NICE man would have.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> No doubt about the respect part, just wondering whether I can still be perceived as "nice" when I stick up for myself and enforce my own boundaries


It really appears you're struggling TYH. I feel for you. I struggled with the Nice Guy/Doormat issue for years, especially with my ex wife. I was the doormat and I used the "nice guy" excuse to not take responsibility for it.

1. To address the issue about the sex. Do it before sex. Don't ever appear that "you got sex and then dropped the bomb". Standing up for yourself is worth more than one night of sex if it went REALLY bad.

2. Focus on the delivery. That's EVERYTHING. Make sure she feels safe and secure. Make sure she's not riled up. And then focus the conversation on JUST the one issue. Don't let it derail or go off track or on other tangents. Also try to do it as much as a "WE" issue as you can while still holding the other person accountable.

One of the most important things I do for my wife to be a nice guy is I look at every issue from the stand point of it's her and me against the issue, that together we can conquer it, whatever it is, even if it's something that either of us did. I NEVER look at it from the stand point of ME vs. HER. One is fixing issues through togetherness and love, the other is "fixing" issues through adversarial conflict.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Number 1. A NICE guy wouldn't have an EA. A NICE guy is a guy who self monitors so he's aware of himself and his surroundings and cares enough about his relationship to put his partner on even par with himself.
> 
> Number 2. The "Aw shucks, anything for you" guy is a lot harder to define. Some doormats act that way, some nice guys act that way (within reason though) and some players act that way because they do that for as long as it takes to get what they want. I have a feeling you dealt with a player who just used the "Aw shucks" move on you.
> 
> *Number 3. You ex was becoming a doormat to the other woman. Be lucky your rid of him. He's got no solid inner core like a real man, and a NICE man would have*.


He's not my ex, he's fiancé. He has made amends. 

But I guess this also means that men are Nice Guys only with certain types of women. Women are who are users and don't care.

As far as your first assertion, I could see where a Nice Guy would have an EA because he doesn't have good boundaries with other people, particularly with other women.

How often do people say "But I have to be nice" when they are really going above the call of (social) duty. When I was married, there were certainly a few times when I wish my husband had said "no" to others since not doing so created obligations on our part.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> BINGO!!!
> 
> But there are GENUINE nice guys, who are very giving etc. who won't be doormats. I'm hoping some of the doormat guys open their eyes and recognize, they don't need to do a TOTAL BODY TRANSFORMATION , They just need to realize their worth and have expectations that they should "get as good as you give."


I wrote an article on this topic, too, and in it I described that difference. It was written for the men who wonder why they're treated so badly when they think they're simply a nice guy. 

I don't think a doormat will see himself as one. Our instincts want to see ourselves only in a good light and so we can't criticize ourselves or be honest with ourselves if it means we've betrayed ourselves worse than the treatment we've gotten. (If that makes sense.) For this reason, I think "nice guy" is a phrase that can help men seeking help accept what they've done to harm themselves and what they can do different. 

If anyone's interested, the article's at Do Nice Guys Come In Last, or Should Men be Jerks to Get the Girl?


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> He's not my ex, he's fiancé. He has made amends.
> 
> But I guess this also means that men are Nice Guys only with certain types of women. Women are who are users and don't care.
> 
> ...


Well then you're definitely the NICE one. :smthumbup: Sorry for assuming he was an ex at that point.

Very true about the boundaries. That's a whole other topic.

In regards to when you're married. That's not being nice. That's having a need for validation from outside people. Most people who go "above the call of duty" for friends etc. but at a detriment to their marriage are doing it for the recognition and validation they get from it. Not because they're too nice. My ex Brother In Law was the same way. His house would be a mess, not taking care of his duties at home but he'd always be off helping one friend move or another fixing his truck. He put his image to his friends above his responsibilities at home.

Through these conversations, I'm realizing something. The term "Nice" (as I'm looking at it) is about how you deliver and present yourself. Not about the actual actions you do. Within reason, you can say "No" but be nice about it. You can stand up for yourself, but be nice about it. It's about how you present yourself to others, not about the actual psychology going on inside your head.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Well then you're definitely the NICE one. :smthumbup: Sorry for assuming he was an ex at that point.
> 
> Very true about the boundaries. That's a whole other topic.
> 
> ...


I think the term "nice" or "too nice" applies to anyone who is being overly generous to those who don't deserve. They don't deserve it because there is not adequate give and take between those two people. and worse, the nice people is hoping at some point to get some recognition for their generosity. For example, an upgraded friendship or friendzoned guy who is hoping to be treated like a boyfriend.

the nature of the relationship doesn't void the possibility that one can be nice or too nice. Think about people who are "too nice" at work, therefore get stuck with chump responsibilities and never the promotions that others are getting.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> But first and foremost, I'm here to learn. Could I ask you please to give me some pointers on how I can confront issues, stand up for myself and demand to be treated as well as I treat my partner without having her feel that I'm not being "nice"?


I am going back to your original post. Couple of thoughts:

1. Why is it so important to always be thought of as nice? 

2. Although not stated, your statement above (and those that follow) implies that the only two choices are nice and being a jerk. There are in fact spots in between. Calling your wife out on her poor behavior (and thus enforcing your boundaries) can be done without being a jerk, even if the discussion is not nice. That is, you can be polite, even and calm, while enforcing your boundary. No one likes critizism, but it can be provided in a constructive and productive way. So while my discussion with my boss about where I screwed up might not be nice, I would not call my boss "not nice" if he gave it in a calm and constructive manner.



> Not for certain I can make sure she feels anything as per TallAverageGuy's post above but I'll give it my best male effort and I'm not really incapable.


While you can't control her feelings, you can provide an environment that allows her to feel safe. Yelling, screamign and cursing can result in her feeling it is not safe to discuss an issue or open up. Being calm, loving, and willing to listen can result in her opening up. You can't control what she ultimately does, but you can take actions to improve the outcome.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Through these conversations, I'm realizing something. The term "Nice" (as I'm looking at it) is about how you deliver and present yourself. Not about the actual actions you do. Within reason, you can say "No" but be nice about it. You can stand up for yourself, but be nice about it. It's about how you present yourself to others, not about the actual psychology going on inside your head.


This is where it seems to me that the nice vs doormat comes in. Doormat is part of the psychology of _why_ you do what you do, and nice is _how_ you do what you do.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am going back to your original post. Couple of thoughts:
> 
> 1. Why is it so important to always be thought of as nice?
> 
> ...


TAG, you're dead on. There are times where I wouldn't consider myself 'nice' or a 'jerk'. I'm not saying it's black and white to life. My point about all of this actually centered around constantly hearing men who are doormats being "defined as a Nice Guy". My point is that the issue of being a doormat has nothing to do with being nice, or not nice. Heck there are passive aggressive men who are doormats and AREN'T nice about it LOL.

I just got tired of hearing guys being doormats but they justify themselves being trampled on by taking on the moniker "Well I'm a Nice Guy". I also got tired of the other end of the spectrum talking about "No More Mr. Nice Guy" (PS I'm not disparaging the book, the content might be dead on, just using the words only as an example). And how some people giving advice to doormats by saying "Stop being a nice guy. Man UP. Alpha up."

I'm simply saying Nice has nothing to do with Doormat or Alpha. 



angelpixie said:


> This is where it seems to me that the nice vs doormat comes in. Doormat is part of the psychology of _why_ you do what you do, and nice is _how_ you do what you do.


Exactly!


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Dad&Hubby said:


> I just got tired of hearing guys being doormats but they justify themselves being trampled on by taking on the moniker "Well I'm a Nice Guy". I also got tired of the other end of the spectrum talking about "No More Mr. Nice Guy" (PS I'm not disparaging the book, the content might be dead on, just using the words only as an example). And how some people giving advice to doormats by saying "Stop being a nice guy. Man UP. Alpha up."
> 
> I'm simply saying Nice has nothing to do with Doormat or Alpha.


I agree on this. The labels used in NMMNG do cause confusion until you read the book. I suspect the name choice is to bring in those that most need to read it (calling the a doormat probably would not help sales). In this forum, I differentiate it as comparing a "Nice Guy" to being a guy or man who is nice.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am going back to your original post. Couple of thoughts:
> 
> 1. Why is it so important to always be thought of as nice?


You're asking the wrong person here. I didn't think is was possible to confront issues, stand up for myself, and demand to be treated as well as I treat my wife and also be thought of as nice. But the op and other posters here seem to be saying they have a program for this so why not try it? What do I have to lose?



Tall Average Guy said:


> 2. Although not stated, your statement above (and those that follow) implies that the only two choices are nice and being a jerk. There are in fact spots in between. Calling your wife out on her poor behavior (and thus enforcing your boundaries) can be done without being a jerk, even if the discussion is not nice. That is, you can be polite, even and calm, while enforcing your boundary. No one likes critizism, but it can be provided in a constructive and productive way. So while my discussion with my boss about where I screwed up might not be nice, I would not call my boss "not nice" if he gave it in a calm and constructive manner.


This is a good example of the kind of misunderstandings I was referring to in my second post. I thought I was pretty clear that I felt the two choice were nice and not nice. Being a jerk is not really on my radar screen although I'm sure people think I'm a jerk sometimes and I'm sorry about that, but I guess I was still misunderstood.



Tall Average Guy said:


> While you can't control her feelings, you can provide an environment that allows her to feel safe. Yelling, screamign and cursing can result in her feeling it is not safe to discuss an issue or open up. Being calm, loving, and willing to listen can result in her opening up. You can't control what she ultimately does, but you can take actions to improve the outcome.


I was responding to the op's making sure his wife felt safe and secure. With all due respect to you and the op, I just not able to make sure how my wife feels. I don't know where yelling, screaming and cursing got into the picture but you may be confusing me for someone else. Nonetheless, I don't think my wife necessarily always feels safe and secure but she's got some problems and there's only so much I can do about it. She has to own her own stuff.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I was responding to the op's making sure his wife felt safe and secure. With all due respect to you and the op, I just not able to make sure how my wife feels. I don't know where yelling, screaming and cursing got into the picture but you may be confusing me for someone else. Nonetheless, I don't think my wife necessarily always feels safe and secure but she's got some problems and there's only so much I can do about it. She has to own her own stuff.


You're dead on. Sorry if I said "Make sure she feels xyz". To be specific, I set the tone and atmosphere for her to feel safe and secure. What she ACTUALLY feels will be on her. Kind of like walking into the formal dining room with the fine china set up and the linens and candle light, and then having McyD's whipped out. Sometimes all the atmosphere in the world won't change what actually happens. You can just do everything you can and then it's on the other person. 

My attitude is if I can look myself in the mirror and HONESTLY say, I did EVERYTHING in my power to make it right, without subjugating myself, then I'm okay.

You do have to have a partner who is working with you, not against you. If your partner is intentionally trying to sabotage you or control you (Intentionally as in it's an active thought in their mind instead of a reactionary issue brought on by your behavior).


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Dad&Hubby said:


> It really appears you're struggling TYH. I feel for you. I struggled with the Nice Guy/Doormat issue for years, especially with my ex wife. I was the doormat and I used the "nice guy" excuse to not take responsibility for it.
> 
> 1. To address the issue about the sex. Do it before sex. Don't ever appear that "you got sex and then dropped the bomb". Standing up for yourself is worth more than one night of sex if it went REALLY bad.
> 
> ...


Thanks again Dad&Hubby. Please don't feel sorry for me. I've got ignition and I'm airborne. However, my poor wife doesn't handle this boundary and personal accountability stuff well and if there is some way I can make it easier on her, I'm all ears. She and her friends and her family have all told me I'm not nice.

I like the "before" advice since I sometimes fall asleep afterwards and I'm always in a really good mood after so anything on my mind disappears. I am still struggling with making sure she feels safe and secure. Just not sure I can effect that. 

Likewise, working with me requires a choice on her part that may not be forthcoming. All I can really do is make the invitation.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Dad&Hubby said:


> You do have to have a partner who is working with you, not against you. If your partner is intentionally trying to sabotage you or control you (Intentionally as in it's an active thought in their mind instead of a reactionary issue brought on by your behavior).


This could be what's missing. A lot of us guys find ourselves married to women who buy into this whole "strong independent woman" thing. When we add that to a weak or nonexistent father figure in their family of origin we find things in our marriages like a struggle to control, a desire to work independently rather than cooperatively and a culture in which a certain amount of disrespect is assumed. When adversarial positioning becomes a habit and can always be validated by looking to sources outside the relationship, we find ourselves challenged in our effort to keep up the drumbeat of working together


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Thank you SA. Your post earlier also resonated with me because I USED to be a doormat. In my first marriage, I was the CLASSIC doormat. I read alot of these posts and I see where these guys struggle and I know the feelings they're going through because I lived it for 6 years. I woke up one morning was getting ready for work and looked at myself in the mirror and couldn't identify with who was looking back at me. That's when changes were made and my divorce happened etc. I was speaking with my best friend throughout my life and he summed me up during that period as "Man, I was looking at you and it was like you didn't have your soul anymore." That sucked but it helped me realize the difference between being the nice guy I always was, and being a doormat.
> 
> It is easier for a nice guy to become a doormat, I agree with that assessment you made earlier.


I think it is great that you can ADMIT this outright... To me... this is similar to an ALPHA with a Nasty overbearing Temper who can admit he needs "Anger Management"... and for some of those... it is just as difficult as it is for some of the more timid temperaments who are geared to be born pleasers/ peacemakers .... especially when the MAN has so darn much to loose in a divorce.... his house, his kids, paying financial support out the wazoo. But in reality...a man has to be willing to set up those emotional "boundaries" and take the chance of loosing the women to gain her Respect back. 

Not easy for some. Love to see an advocate who is willing to speak openly about it -- as yourself 

One of my favorite books of all time >> Boundaries: When to Say YES,When to Say NO,To Take Control of Your Life: 

-Same authors, this one for Marriages >> Boundaries in Marriage: 




> *Dad&Hubby said*: Standing up for yourself in and of itself has nothing to do with being "Nice" or "Mean". It's the DELIVERY that does. I made sure my wife wasn't emotionally charged up so she'd be more receptive and I also made sure she felt very safe and secure so she wouldn't take my "criticism" to be anything more than it really was. My wife gives me a TREMENDOUS amount of respect, but every once in a blue moon she can snap about something if she's really frustrated. I NEVER let a single one of those moments go by without addressing them. PS at one point I did because I chalked it up to her personality...guess what...she snapped a lot more. (That was the Nice guy sliding into Doormat Mode for a moment). Needless to say, I learned my lessons and ALWAYS set my position in our relationship..I just do it NICELY


I think me & my husband handle things in a more comedic, maybe strange way...we do deal in the moment....But I like that. 

This is our dynamic.... I'm gonna be honest here... I can be a bit of handful at times....I know what I want, when I want it and how I want it at any given time, I can be demanding if I don't watch myself...(that is my choleric temperament)... I can even be manipulate to get what I want... but do I want to stomp on people, run them over like a bull dozer....... NO... if I do...and I KNOW when I am teetering this direction.... I end up feeling really bad -then have to go humble myself & heartfully apologize making it right... This probably happens more with the kids than my husband, we just get along really well. 

But I've had my moments...I was itching towards being a little too "forthright"/bossy ..... more so in the past... he would say to me ...."*YES DEAR*"... Oh I know this sounds bad...but hold on.... he did this because he KNEW I DIDN'T LIKE it - he wanted to get a RISE out of me...... his way of saying...."You are pushing it woman!".... then I'd want to go smack him & say "don't say that!" and ask how he really feels and we'll talk about it-this generally leads to a hugging. He pretty much lets me know when I am getting out of hand. And yeah.. I want that, generally he makes fun of me..then gets me laughing at myself. Cause I know he is right ! 

After some reading in NMMNG....I told him -- Tell me off more...I'll thank you for it. I meant that. Sometimes I need put in my place. On Thanksgiving, rushing to be ready for family.... It must have been my attitude -telling him to vacuum...before his parents arrived & he told me outright, he wasn't gonna do it- he didn't like my attitude....and I went over & kissed him for that !!! Hey, trying to encourage the man to tell me off... gotta do what you gotta do!

We don't have to wait to be cooled down to talk about anything....like our attitudes.....maybe this is because we are both very quick to OWN our own flaws & just agree with the other in a heated moment -even when  ~ A little back & forth making fun of each other - this seems to be our way to get us out of a funk.... 

I guess we are a little strange.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> You're asking the wrong person here. I didn't think is was possible to confront issues, stand up for myself, and demand to be treated as well as I treat my wife and also be thought of as nice. But the op and other posters here seem to be saying they have a program for this so why not try it? What do I have to lose?


I think you are missing the point. That is, you don't have to be a jerk to stand up for yourself. You can be nice yet still enforce your boundaries. Sometimes, you will need to be a bit of a jerk, but that hopefully will be the exception. Reasonable people, when you enforce your boundary, will likely still think you are nice. In the end, though, it does not really matter what others think. It is about you being true to the man that you are.



> I was responding to the op's making sure his wife felt safe and secure. With all due respect to you and the op, I just not able to make sure how my wife feels. I don't know where yelling, screaming and cursing got into the picture but you may be confusing me for someone else. Nonetheless, I don't think my wife necessarily always feels safe and secure but she's got some problems and there's only so much I can do about it. She has to own her own stuff.


I was not accusing you of yelling or screaming. My point is only that you control what you control. You control the way you react, the way you speak and your contribution to the environment. So while you can't control whether your wife feels safe and secure, you can control your contribution to an environment that facilitates her feeling that way. Talking in a calm voice and demonstrating that you are listening are examples of creating that environment, while screaming and yelling are examples of not creating that environment. I did not mean to suggest that you did any of these things.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Reasonable people, when you enforce your boundary, will likely still think you are nice.


The accuracy of this statement is just not a clear to me as it is to you. Maybe there is just a shortage of reasonable people where I am.



Tall Average Guy said:


> In the end, though, it does not really matter what others think. It is about you being true to the man that you are.


And the choir says amen


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

I love nice guys! I deliberately looked for one when I was dating, and I cherish my husband's devotion to our marriage and our family.

I see it as nice vs. selfish. I think that the problem comes when nice guys do not uphold boundaries with their not-so-nice wives. If you are afraid that you cannot find another partner if you divorce, fear financial consequences, or think that you should stay married for the children, you will put up with disrespect from your partner. We teach people how to treat us, and nice should never mean tolerating emotional abuse from a spouse.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

I hear a lot of talk about trying to be this or that or getting with some new program.

My H is a 'nice man' because it's who he is. Not someone he is trying to be.

He is by no means perfect but he is so kind and thoughtful. He makes me feel important and special. But he also expects the same in return.

If i was to speak to him or treat him the way i hear 'some' of the wives doing on these message boards he would have no trouble letting me know he wasn't going to put up with it. He doesn't like it if i get loud and shouty for instance and will tell me he needs some timeout and we'll get back and talk once we both calm down. He would never stand there and let me abuse him or blame him for all my woes.

But he does it in a way that makes me respect him and want to make amends. He's clever like that.


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