# Dropping the 180?



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

So...I am looking at 'Suspect My Wife is Having an Affair' thread (spoiler: she was)

In it, the BS, disgusted, lost and horrified, did the 180 on his wife.

Now, it is generally understood that the 180 is *for the spouse's* emotional detachment, and not to 'manipulate' the WS from coming back.

But...that is frequently a purpose for the BS: to make the WS interested again.

Now, on this particular thread (sorry, it's in the private section), the BS did this...and suddenly the WS was PEPPERING the BS with texts, phone calls and desires for meetings.

Now, in HIS case, he's done. She had a year and a half affair. But...say he was reconciling.

What is the point where we advice the spouse: okay...enough dark. It's time to talk to your spouse and start healing the breech.


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

If the 180 is for the BSs self improvement, the focus should be on the changes being implimented long enough to be engrained, so that they don't revert to previous behavior. 

If I was a doormat and fell for manipulation, I would not want to drop the 180 a few weeks after making changes, just because the WS started begging for my attention and a reconciliation. Nothing would change. Reconciliation would be false. If the WS wants the BS bad enough, they would wait until the BS is ready to take them back. If the WS is impatient, gets angry and says "I want a divorce", then obviously they had alterior motive for wanting to come back. Is this what you are talking about?


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

i do a "mini 180" right now with my wife.
which means basically that i take time for myself to pursue my intersts (though not much, very busy with work and two young kids).
but i do not place her priorities first anymore (did for years), although i do consider them often. and i do not allow her to force/guilt me into decisions. ever. never again will i.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

SaltInWound said:


> If the 180 is for the BSs self improvement, the focus should be on the changes being implimented long enough to be engrained, so that they don't revert to previous behavior.
> 
> If I was a doormat and fell for manipulation, I would not want to drop the 180 a few weeks after making changes, just because the WS started begging for my attention and a reconciliation. Nothing would change. Reconciliation would be false. If the WS wants the BS bad enough, they would wait until the BS is ready to take them back. If the WS is impatient, gets angry and says "I want a divorce", then obviously they had alterior motive for wanting to come back. Is this what you are talking about?


I don't agree with this for the simple fact that those changes take a LONG time to happen, often measured in years. You may decide that you no longer want to be a doormat but you don't stop being a doormat overnight. The underlying reasons for being a doormat are still there. The 180 may give you the opportunity to UNDERSTAND that being a doormat was a problem and DECIDE you no longer want to be a doormat but that is just the start of the process.

No, I think the 180 gives you time to clear your head of the fog, perhaps starting the process of self-improvement but not necessarily realizing the fruits of self-improvement. You can see it over and over as people process what has just happened to them, going through the stages. You need to go through those stages without the influence of the WS in order to prepare yourself for making some very hard decisions when you are ready to confront your WS again. When you come back out of the 180, you see clearer and are better able to handle the emotional turmoil you will face.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

SaltInWound said:


> If the 180 is for the BSs self improvement, the focus should be on the changes being implimented long enough to be engrained, so that they don't revert to previous behavior.
> 
> If I was a doormat and fell for manipulation, I would not want to drop the 180 a few weeks after making changes, just because the WS started begging for my attention and a reconciliation. Nothing would change. Reconciliation would be false. If the WS wants the BS bad enough, they would wait until the BS is ready to take them back. If the WS is impatient, gets angry and says "I want a divorce", then obviously they had alterior motive for wanting to come back. Is this what you are talking about?


Let's be clear on a few issues:

First, self improvement does not require the 180. Hopefully that is a constant journey.

The 180 is for emotional detachment from an emotionally abusive situation (not every spouse sets out to be abusive, but the results of their actions feel that way. A person with a gambling problem does NOT want to hurt their spouse...they have a PROBLEM!)

The bonus of the 180 is that it frequently shakes the wayward out of their fog situation...a LITTLE! Enough to make it seem that they are close to losing something...if not precious right now, something once highly valued and possibly regretably lost later.

And that is the key right there, IMO.

As a former Wayward as defined by TAM, if my wife pulled the 180 and waited until she was 'no longer a doormat' (a LONG process) I wouldn't have waited around. Not because I WANTED to lose her, but because without any hope, what is the point of making the effort? If every time I try to 'fix' the marriage, my spouse makes me feel like I'm throwing money down a well, it is encouraging a divorce that in the pit of the BS's heart, they don't really want either.

So I'm wondering what that fine line is?

The other thing I recall from my circumstance is that I was NOT immediately ready for a full grovel/sackcloth and ashes mandatory TAM remorse. My wife didn't require it...but as time went on, I have her more and more of what she needed to heal and felt worse and worse about my actions.

Questioning if the 'mandatory hardline stance' is ruining recoverable marriages is another thread. But i hear lots of advice on how to detach, but none on when and how to reengage with the partner.

Does anyone see this lack as well?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I assume that the 180 we are talking about here is the one linnked to in my signature block below (or one similar to it for the BS).

This 180 is meant to be done until the WS agrees to end the affair, sends the NC letter and agrees to work on recovery.

At that point the BS needs to re-evaluate things. There are some things in this 180 that will make sense to continue... like try to keep a lid on emotional out bursts.

But once the couple is back together and working on recovery they need open communication. This is the time for reading books together like "Surviving an Affair", "Love Busters", and "His Needs, Her Needs" (all by Dr. Harley). There are other good books as well. 

MC and IC are good ideas as well.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Well that's the real trick, isn't it? Finding that magic balancing point between hard and soft, that will save your marriage. Too far either way, and your marriage is toast. I support the hardline, because if the marriage does fail, the bs is in a much better place to move on from, and let's face it, the ws gets what they deserved.

Having said that, I took a much softer line. I was fortunate in my circumstances, exceptionally so I would say, and some of the **** I put up with came back later and added to the mountain of resentment I had to get out from under to carry on. Would things have turned out better or worse had I taken a harder line? I can't say for sure. I do feel somewhat better that my wife eventually made the right choices of her own accord, but some of those choices came just barely in time for me to remain invested.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

I consider the "180" to be a tool for the betrayed spouses' self improvement. I continue to use it today, more than two years after my divorce.
Treat me well, I'll do the same for you.
Of not, then I won't be treating you, at all.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I assume that the 180 we are talking about here is the one linnked to in my signature block below (or one similar to it for the BS).
> 
> This 180 is meant to be done until the WS agrees to end the affair, sends the NC letter and agrees to work on recovery.
> 
> ...


This iseems to be a very good rule of thumb. And it would work very well with a PA.

This is also not how it worked in our recovery.

I was in an EA. I had never HEARD of an EA. So when my wife hit me with some of the EA websites etc, I thought this was Oprah/Dr. Phil gooble dee **** of trying to sell books to insecure women. Hadn't I been taught that men and women were equal and could be friends? She was just a friend!

So when the ultimatum came...I refused. This frustrated my wife...but we still worked on it. It took 2-3 months before I finally went NC. There was no letter. I said goodbye myself to her myself...but we never heard of TAM.

Needless to say, this isn't a TAM approved R...but I've been NC for 14 months without a slip, though I still struggle with boundaries occasionally.

It took six months after NC before I started to question the relationship at all.

I believe in the Fog now. I agree with the shock to the system approach of threatening divorce. That was what it took for me.

But I know personally how I felt during this period. I wasn't ready for NC immediately. So I'm a bit less of a hardliner here.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

JCD said:


> This iseems to be a very good rule of thumb. And it would work very well with a PA.
> 
> This is also not how it worked in our recovery.
> 
> ...


Take a look at the *Plan A* link in my siganture block below. This sounds like the way your wife handled getting you give up on your EA. It's what Marriage Builder's suggest that the BS do when they first find out about the affair. It's only after a month or 2 of Plan A that they suggest that the BS move to *Plan B* (much like the 180)


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

:toast:180 4 LIFE YO:toast:


But ya I basically agree with JCD


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

YOU weren't ready for NC. You were in the fog, in denial. You didn't change until your wife made the prospect of not changing more painful to you than changing. What about the damage your stubbornness caused to your wife's commitment to your marriage in the meantime?

That could have made R impossible for her if her resentment overpowered her positive feelings.

It kind of comes down to a question of timing perhaps? For any chance of R, you have to go NC sooner or later. Hardlining it makes it come sooner. If that dealbreaks for the WW, the marriage was probably doomed anyway.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

JDC, you asked:


> What is the point where we advice the spouse: okay...enough dark. It's time to talk to your spouse and start healing the breech.


First, I would like you to bear in mind that not every affair is the same. Now, there are often very striking similarities! I'm sure by now that you know of the "Wayward Script" whereas at the time you were experiencing it, it seemed like your EA and your feelings and how you reacted were soooooo unique and special TO YOU that you would have probably said "My affair is nothing like yours." However, now you're a little further down the road and you know that actually affairs very often have a pattern they go through. BUT just because the vast majority are similar, it's not 100% and not every affair goes the exact same steps in the exact same order. Yours actually does seem to be a little different in that you and your spouse were able to intuitively do what had to be done in order to reconcile. Lots of folks actually do the exact opposite of what is constructive and healthy, and that's why the advice here and sound fairly counter-intuitive to most people. 

Soooo having been where you are, I could answer your question FOR YOU...or I can answer your question for most of the folks here on the forum. As a general rule, for your average Loyal Spouse and Disloyal Spouse, you don't go into 180 and stay there forever. You don't need 180 to grow as a person or as a couple. BUT very often couples are so entangled, to such an unhealthy degree, that the concept of not being involved in their spouse's life and not having their spouse involved in their life is so foreign that the Loyal Spouse really needs to learn how to be an individual! For those folks...the ones who are not yet individuated... the concept of being on their own two feet and walking ALONG SIDE their partner (not leaning on their partner) has to be a life lesson they learn! AND THEN...they can consider the possibility of coming to the marriage in a healthy way! Get it?

FOR YOU, it's a little different. In your circumstances, if we had suggested to your spouse to just cut you off, do no contact, and work on herself--chances are good that would have been perceived as non-interest, shutting down completely, and closing the door on any chance. FOR YOU, the suggestion might have been wiser to focus on the parts of the 180 that have to do with "have your own life" "be the person that attracted them in the first place" "carry on with being the kind of person you want to be." See that part of the 180 means to not desperately follow the disloyal person around being a beggar but instead to be lively, interesting, fun, pretty/handsome, witty, smart, enjoyable...and carry on with life as if to say "I'm still a good catch and if you want to look elsewhere, that's your issue because I'm still a desirable kind of person!" 



> As a former Wayward as defined by TAM, if my wife pulled the 180 and waited until she was 'no longer a doormat' (a LONG process) I wouldn't have waited around. Not because I WANTED to lose her, but because without any hope, what is the point of making the effort? If every time I try to 'fix' the marriage, my spouse makes me feel like I'm throwing money down a well, it is encouraging a divorce that in the pit of the BS's heart, they don't really want either.


Yep I completely understand what you mean and agree with you. Not every Disloyal Spouse is immediately 100% repentant or at least they don't realize what 100% repentance actually REQUIRES and MEANS. For me, I knew the moment where I said to myself "I can not do this anymore. I don't WANT to do this anymore. I have to stop." For me, that was the moment I woke up and started to want to work on the marriage. But at that instant I did not realize that meant I had to have my PC screen pointing so my Dear Hubby can see it all the time, that he'd have every single password and be free to check it any darn time he wants, that I would not only have to never contact the OM but also every single friend I'd every made who knew the OM and I as "a couple".... Those things I came to realize step by step.

I think the main things that need to be offered from the Disloyal Spouse are actual willingness to stop the affair entirely. sorrow for what they did, willingness to look at themselves and change, and not minimizing what they did. And I think the main things that need to be offered by the Loyal Spouse are willingness to not hold it over their heads forever, willingness to forgive some time in the "nearish" future, willingness to look at themselves and change, and not trying to go back to "how it was." 



> So I'm wondering what that fine line is?


Well here's what I tell Loyal Spouses when they go NC with their Disloyal--I tell them to memorize this phrase: "Are you willing to give 100% of your affection and loyalty to me? Oh you're not? Then please do not contact me until you are. Bye now." Here's why: even when they are in NC, they are giving their disloyal the message "There is a way you could save this. I do have some things I'd need in order to get over this but it's not hopeless." 

So the Disloyal hears "There is a way to get this back on track." and they see you aren't taking crumbs anymore, and they see they might lose you, AND you're carrying on with life being someone who's pretty darn neat! It's conceivable it will catch their attention. 

If it does, and if the Disloyal says, "Yeah. I'm calling because I've been thinking about it, and I am willing to give 100% of my affection and loyalty to only you," the that's the line. The Loyal can then say "Cool I was so hoping you'd say that. I want to be with you. So now here's the thing. Right now my trust is kind of blown since all the lies and whatnot, but I'm willing to let you earn it." And there ya go. I would suggest to the Loyal at that point to let them have the chance to SHOW YOU they mean it, and that means maybe having the Disloyal look up and arrange for marriage counseling, or go to their own counselor or support group and tell you about it, or have a couple "gentle get togethers" where you two discuss what you each need. 




> Questioning if the 'mandatory hardlr ffine stance' is ruining recoverable marriages is another thread. But i hear lots of advice on how to detach, but none on when and how to reengage with the partner.
> 
> Does anyone see this lack as well?


Well...in my opinion the hard line is not "grovel with sack cloth and ashes to get me back" so much as it's "I will not in any way tolerate a third person in our marriage." It's like I say: two people in a marriage can have a FEAST of love and companionship and sexual fulfillment and friendship and intimacy...or one spouse can give the other crumbs. For me, I love my Dear Hubby--I am literally ecstatically married to him. But if he started giving some of his attention and interest to some other woman, I would not be in a relationship like that. Now, he's free to do so if that's his choice, don't get me wrong. I hope he doesn't! But if he does choose that, the cost to him is losing me. I will not do it. 

So see the hard line there? 

Also there's also a bit of a hard line on "blameshifting" because yes I get it, affairs do not happen in a vacuum. BUT I was the one who chose to be unfaithful. My Dear Hubby may have been "less than vigilant" in some areas, and there may have been some giant misunderstanding that we just didn't talk about and should have! But in the end, I am personally responsible for ME and what I choose to do. If the Disloyal is taking responsibility...hey, there's hope. If they are not and they're saying "Well you made me..." or "If you hadn't ___... " then they still aren't getting it and are probably not really ready to reconcile.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Take a look at the *Plan A* link in my siganture block below. This sounds like the way your wife handled getting you give up on your EA. It's what Marriage Builder's suggest that the BS do when they first find out about the affair. It's only after a month or 2 of Plan A that they suggest that the BS move to *Plan B* (much like the 180)


Wow! Followed the link.

That is extraordinarily insightful.

One thing I took away from this that I don't believe that Dr. Harley emphasised (for obvious reasons) is that the BS is actually negotiating from a position of weaknes.

If I were a BS, that would drive me MAD! But for _most_ intents and purposes, it's true. GF has the new girl smell...wife does not.

The other thing which struck me as incredibly wise is that of fixing the other problems in the marriage WHILE you are negotiating. It seems standard TAM dogma that while each spouse is 50% responsible for the problems in the marriage, the AFFAIR is the only problem worth dealing with when it comes to R.

This, IMO, is BS (and that isn't betrayed spouse, boys and girls). While selfish and a choice, affairs happen for a REASON!

Now, it might not be a fair reason, or a valid reason, or a sufficient reason, but perception is in the mind of the PERCEIVER (the WS!) 

That is how it worked with my wife. We decided to work on the other problems. That was my 'price' for R-ing. If the marriage didn't improve, I wasn't interested in staying. Neither was she.

I can say it worked.

Which is why I am...hesitant sometimes with the TAM dogma. I think that for all the talk of nuking the affair, holding a hard line, demanding pure submission, that they are destroying marriages which _could_ potentially be saved. There are very few 'success' stories here and from what it sounds, most involve a spouse who was already guilty (Changing Me, tears, EI) OR the couple use non-TAM means to fix things (a less hardline approach)


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

SadandAngry said:


> YOU weren't ready for NC. You were in the fog, in denial. You didn't change until your wife made the prospect of not changing more painful to you than changing. What about the damage your stubbornness caused to your wife's commitment to your marriage in the meantime?


I half and half agree with this statement.

First, she had already blew her load: she wanted a divorce. That was enough to blow away some fog. SOME. I STILL wasn't willing to unconditionally reconcile though because for 8 years the marriage sucked! I recall making the cost/benefit calculations in my head during the argument. "Okay...apartment...kids...I'll have to do my own taxes...dating..." etc

It wasn't until she offered the INDUCEMENT of making things better that I started to get on board. The prospect of submitting to a person who had (correctly or incorrectly) made my life a living hell just so she could flay me with THIS as well...well...why would I stay for THAT? And I recall thinking that she was correct about the 'friend' if she was willing to divorce.

She was taken aback and resentful that the prospect of losing 'wonderful her' wasn't enough for me to fall at her feet begging her to stay. But it also made her reflective. "What have I done that this guy who has for 17 years HATED divorce is telling me that he's willing to pull the trigger?"

It was painful for all involved. But if it's all stick, the mule doesn't move.


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