# Are we forever injured?



## Blindasabat (Nov 29, 2011)

3-1/2 months from D-day working on reconciling. I was thinking today are we BS going to be forever injured? meaning we can almost recover like almost recovered but we will always carry this cross, this thing that was done to us whether you divorce or reconcile there's going to be that elephant in the room for now on? more for those who reconcile I suppose.
I guess it has been asked many times like Why did it happen? but does it get better?
for me the 2nd worst thing in life infidelity has happened - I thank God I haven't had to experience the worst experience of all -death of a child God please forbid! and my heart goes out to anyone who has had that horrific experience-I know my mind would shatter completely. But its still a heavy burden nonetheless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

it's not carrying a cross, that implies that you paying for the sins of others

it's more like having a stone chained to your leg. You either drag it around and slow you down in limbo, cut it free and start anew or have the remorseful wayward pick it up and carry it behind you


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

My first great pain was when my wife cheated on me 18 years ago.

My second great pain was when my father died two years ago.

My third great pain was when I discovered my wife was cheating on me again two weeks ago.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I wouldn't call it forever INJURED. AFFECTED, yes, but it doesn't have to be an injury.

Scar tissue is stronger than it was before the hurt, and, like any life experience, being betrayed by one you love can result in a stronger person AND a stronger relationship, whether with the WS or not. Sounds cliché, I know, but it's still true.


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I wouldn't call it forever INJURED. AFFECTED, yes, but it doesn't have to be an injury.
> 
> Scar tissue is stronger than it was before the hurt, and, like any life experience, being betrayed by one you love can result in a stronger person AND a stronger relationship, whether with the WS or not. Sounds cliché, I know, but it's still true.


Sounds like BS, if cynical and more calloused fits your definition of stronger than sure... and I would go with injured over affected and as for the scar tissue analogy your wrong.. scar tissue is much more likely to open up again with considerably less provocation than healthy tissue.. Its lost it flexibility and ability to absorb as much injury.. making even smaller later slights likely to cause as much if not more hurt..

As for me and my Elephant, well it's a lot to fit in the truck but we manage. I take him with me every where I go...


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## Blindasabat (Nov 29, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> it's not carrying a cross, that implies that you paying for the sins of others
> 
> it's more like having a stone chained to your leg. You either drag it around and slow you down in limbo, cut it free and start anew or have the remorseful wayward pick it up and carry it behind you


I don't think they can since it was done to us not them-they can help lessen the load but its still ours
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## crossbar (Aug 25, 2011)

They say that time heals all wounds. For the most part, that's a true statement. But, sometimes those wounds leaves scars. Those are there to remind us where we've been and what we've been through and what NOT to do to get anymore scars. 

Plus, chicks dig scars.....

LOL! sorry couldn't resist!


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## oaksthorne (Mar 4, 2011)

Blindasabat said:


> 3-1/2 months from D-day working on reconciling. I was thinking today are we BS going to be forever injured? meaning we can almost recover like almost recovered but we will always carry this cross, this thing that was done to us whether you divorce or reconcile there's going to be that elephant in the room for now on? more for those who reconcile I suppose.
> I guess it has been asked many times like Why did it happen? but does it get better?
> for me the 2nd worst thing in life infidelity has happened - I thank God I haven't had to experience the worst experience of all -death of a child God please forbid! and my heart goes out to anyone who has had that horrific experience-I know my mind would shatter completely. But its still a heavy burden nonetheless.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



It is hard to quantify which is worse. I have had both experiences. Losing my son was terrible for me, but I had two years to prepare myself for his death. I had no warning when I discovered that my H was having an A with a woman half my age. I functioned well through out my son's illness and I was able to support him and to ease his passing. I fell apart emotionally when I discovered my H's A I was flattened by grief, confusion, anger and humiliation. I came to question everything that I thought was true and fine about life and my marriage. Nothing in my experience has ever stripped me so completely of everything I valued. There was no choice involved in my son's leaving us, but my H chose another woman over me. That is what hurts so much; the absolute certainty that he knew what he was doing was wrong, and that he was risking our marriage; but he decided that she was worth it, that he couldn't pass up a chance to have a "woman like that " How does one get beyond that? I really don't think I can wholly recover from this. He tells me that he will spend the rest of his life making it up to me. I don't know how that can be done either, my guess is that it can't. When I think of my beautiful son, I smile and remember what a wonderful person he was. When I think of my H, I remember what a wonderful person I thought he was, and I haven't smiled in some time.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

There is a new reality now for me. So I would say I am forever changed in a significant way due to my wife's lies and deceptions.

It is less Nice for sure, but on the other hand it is more Real. I want to live in reality not the sham of the pretense of the past 29 years.

There is a sense of loss of innocence, which is disappointing, but there is a new feeling of empowerment in all this.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

I can't imagine why anyone would choose to get stabbed every day. But that's just how I think.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

I'll always remember the video on marriagebuilders where Dr. Harley talks about a woman that was gang raped and later found out about her husband's affair. She said the gang rape was less painful.

Are we forever injured? I wish I could say no but the reality is that we are injured whether we divorce or reconcile. When you put that much trust and love into one person and that person, the one that you KNEW you could always count on, CHOOSES to stab you in the back you never truly recover. The only way to prevent it would be to go back in time and beat the crap out of yourself before you said "I DO." Since that is not possible the best thing one can do is make the best of a painful situation and try to grow from it.

A very good friend of mine caught his wife in bed with his best friend. She cried, begged and tried everything to fix it but he would have none of it. The trust was gone. When he met and married his second wife he admitted to me that for three years he didn't feel he could trust her even though she had not done anything wrong. He even took to following her to work, the store, etc. just to verify she was where she said she'd be. The loss of trust is very tough to overcome.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> Are we forever injured? I wish I could say no but the reality is that we are injured whether we divorce or reconcile.


It depends on how you define injured. I'm not happy with having years of my life go into the trash, but I will put it behind me. I'm not angry at my wife because she couldn't do anything different than she did, she had no sense of morality, she was a cut-rate version of a person, with some of the options left out. It happens, you get a lemon and you sometimes end up driving it longer than you would expect.



Beowulf said:


> A very good friend of mine caught his wife in bed with his best friend. She cried, begged and tried everything to fix it but he would have none of it. The trust was gone. When he met and married his second wife he admitted to me that for three years he didn't feel he could trust her even though she had not done anything wrong. He even took to following her to work, the store, etc. just to verify she was where she said she'd be. The loss of trust is very tough to overcome.


I'd be ready to start fresh. It's easy to earn my mistrust but it does have to be earned.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

lascarx said:


> It depends on how you define injured. I'm not happy with having years of my life go into the trash, but I will put it behind me. I'm not angry at my wife because she couldn't do anything different than she did, she had no sense of morality, she was a cut-rate version of a person, with some of the options left out. It happens, you get a lemon and you sometimes end up driving it longer than you would expect.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be ready to start fresh. It's easy to earn my mistrust but it does have to be earned.


Well then you are definitely cut from a different cloth than most and for that I envy you. Most BS whether they reconcile or divorce feel great amounts of pain for a very long time.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm still learning but [today] I see there being 5 cornerstones to marriage and each one relies completely on the one before it. You break the chain anywhere, IMHO, your marriage is broken and is in danger of an affair because once you unravel one, each cornerstone above it eventually unravels too.


Respect - You respect your partner; intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, etc. Because you respect them, you do what you need to do to get them to respect you. This affects how you communicate with them and how you view yourself. If you respect someone, you want to be a better person so that they respect you back.
Trust - You trust your partner to respect you.
Affection - With trust and respect, you will show each other affection
Sex - When gals get affection, guys get sex. (I break this out because sex and affection are not the same thing)
Investment - This link doesn't really fit into the chain. If you spend enough time with someone, you will become invested in them. You will grow your lives together, even if you are missing the first 4 cornerstones.

Why do we cheat? Because we're missing something covered by 1-4 and because of #5, we have so much invested in our marriages, we don't want to leave. We cheat. We lie. We "betray".

Do you know why your spouse cheated yet? Do you know what was missing in your marriage?

Let me tell you why I cheated.


I did not respect my wife because I was angry.
I do not trust my wife to be honest with me because we didnt know how to communicate
There was a modicum of affection in our lives
There was no sex in our marriage
We have alot invested in our marriage; child, house, commodities, etc.

But what's scary was that I was unhappy in my marriage and I didn't even know it. I was working all the time, the marriage was bland, the intimacy was gone, my wife had PPD and that dragged me down, finances were in trouble because I didn't have the personal motivation to do anything about them; I was clinically depressed and so was my wife. We were both emotionally bankrupt and I was too busy living inside of my life to realize that I needed to fix on my life. I seriously had not clued in.

And then I met my AP and she filled all of those emotional gaps for me. She made me HAPPY with a capital everything. We talked about everything, we did everything together, we got along fantastically, and [most importantly] we had a great deal of respect for each other. I fell in love with her.

And I think that's the rub. We're all really good at falling into relationships but I suspect that very few of us actually know what makes a successful long term relationship work. How many of us actually read books about relationships etc etc etc? Almost none I'd bet. Before an affair or marital trouble, how many of us actually have a plan to work on our marriage? I sure didn't. Did you?

The one liner that gets my goat up is "make your marriage your priority" but what does that even mean? It offers no help or guidelines on how to do it. It's a completely useless statement and I see it on TAM all the time. Grrrrr.

Presumably, you've been to marriage counseling. You've already started journeying into the reasons for the cheating in the first place. If you haven't then you need to. Because we're hurting, we WS always find reasons to justify the affair. A BS will say, "You had no right! You are just justifying it! You are still lying to both of us!". The WS will say, "But but!" and the WS will come up with some pretty crazy sh*t at first; that's because....

What a BS can never understand is just how much cheating hurts the WS (unless they are a psychopath). IMHO, the top cornerstones to a relationship are #1 - respect, #2 - Trust. And when a WS cheats, they lose both of those in themselves. They lash out at their spouse because they are hurting so very very badly. I don't say this to get you to sympathize with them but to help you understand. It hurts like hell to cheat but it's silent. For me, I didn't even realize how much it had affected me until I melted down completely.

So when a WS gives you reasons for them cheating, you can either say, "F*ck you! You betrayed me!", like so many other BS on TAM, but that will only reinforce that self loathing and, IMHO, that can do one of two things. If they are a beta, it will make them more pliable. "I am a terrible person, I'm sorry". If they are an alpha, it will make them fight back with everything they've got. I think this is a lose lose either way.

As I said, I'm still learning, researching, thinking so all of the above might be complete rubbish but it sure feels right for my EA. Unfortunately, I only learned any of this AFTER being with my wife for 10+ years and AFTER cheating on her.

So if you have explored the reasons behind the cheating and have identified them, have you both come up with a plan to fix those things? If you haven't, then I suspect that you will never have a good relationship with your spouse. How can you if you are just expecting your cheating spouse to fix the problem. They can't... the problem is with the two of you and I'm betting it's probably because you both suck at communicating with each other. Enter Marriage counseling.

Have you asked: Why don't you respect each other? Why don't you trust each other? Why don't you show each other enough affection? Why don't you have enough sex? Because without those, all you have is Investment, and that's not enough to make a marriage affair-proof.

If you do manage to identify all that was missing, then forgive your spouse and, MORE IMPORTANTLY, forgive yourself for allowing your marriage to go to sh*t in the first place. Take solace in the fact that you just weren't good at marriage before and now you have a chance to be. But actually getting your spouse to admit some of the very hurtful reasons for the above is going to be hard on you too. Chances are that they're hiding some stuff from you because they love you and they don't want to hurt you with the truth. I know I was (and still am; but I'll get there in time; I respect my wife enough not to destroy her with everything at once).

If you sort all of that out, I can't honestly see a reason for you to be injured anymore. The affair was a wake up call. So wake up. If you seriously can't get over it then you've lost the respect and trust in your partner and your marriage is done.

Aside: It has taken me MONTHS of thought on the subject to come to the real reasons behind what was wrong with our marriage. Months! And it only came by me obsessing over it; thinking, rethinking writing it down, re-reading later, talking with others, rethinking, etc. It has surprised me to find out just how many people in my circle have had affairs. Some are struggling 5 years afterwards... and you know why? They don't talk and they never fixed the marriage so they are still miserable and the WS are still being beaten over the head for cheating. In these cases, the WS is usually sick to death of the marriage and are generally all on antidepressants. This could be you if you don't figure this out.

I have never been an BS so I can't say what the betrayal feels like but my guess is that the loss of the trust and respect in the person that is lying next to you is horrific. And thinking that you can't trust anything that they say anymore so you obsess on everything that they say and do to see if they will betray that trust again. IMHO, constantly monitoring their internet usage, phone usage, etc, is detrimental to the BS' state of mind. I'm sure that some use it as a crutch to reassure themselves that their WS isn't on the prowl again but here's the thing... you can't monitor everything. Don't be stupid enough to think that there aren't ways around your monitoring. Accept that. If they stray again, you will find out eventually. But obsessing over a past affair and CONSTANTLY REMINDING the WS of the affair tells them that you don't respect or trust them. That erodes their own sense of self and is yet another trigger for them to want to get away from you.

If that is the case, then that is what you have to fix. You can either spend the rest of your life with that person wondering *when* they will next betray you or you can forgive them and reconcile yourself to the fact that you can't do anything about it. You can just fill the gaps that were there that prompted them to cheat in the first place.

Take away their reasons to cheat again.

If they do it again then that's that. You've done all you could and they haven't held up their end of the bargain. This time, it truly is all their fault.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> Well then you are definitely cut from a different cloth than most and for that I envy you. Most BS whether they reconcile or divorce feel great amounts of pain for a very long time.


I think the problem is that people can't just let go, they still see their projected loves and not the real things behind those projections. And in most reconciliations, even the most successful ones, I doubt the betrayed ever really see the betrayers for what they are. In the end, the need for the illusion is too strong.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

TCx said:


> And when a WS cheats, they lose both of those in themselves. They lash out at their spouse because they are hurting so very very badly. I don't say this to get you to sympathize with them but to help you understand. It hurts like hell to cheat but it's silent.


Friend, I'm not going to speak for you, but you're way off base if you think that you can generalize that way. There are plenty of cheaters that do it without a twinge. Your whole post may well apply to your marriage, but leave the rest of us out of it.



TCx said:


> As I said, I'm still learning, researching, thinking so all of the above might be complete rubbish


Like I said, probably not complete, but very limited in application.



TCx said:


> If they do it again then that's that. You've done all you could and they haven't held up their end of the bargain. This time, it truly is all their fault.


In other words, you want to say that you deserved a second chance. In actuality, the only relevant issue is if you got one or not.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

lascarx said:


> In other words, you want to say that you deserved a second chance. In actuality, the only relevant issue is if you got one or not.


No, i don't think it has anything to do with a second chance. I think it just has to do with being more informed.

I'd never have guessed how much it would hurt everyone involved in the affair before I cheated. Had I known any of what I know now, I would have avoided it like the plague and I never would have done it in the first place.

Because of the affair, I learned so much more about life and marriage that I didn't know before. It's opened my eyes to so many things that I'm still sorting through it all.

The second chance can only be offered by the BS. I'm just saying that the WS, if they learn from their mistake, are better off than they were before and they will, hopefully, carry that onto their next relationship (be that relationship with their current spouse or the next one).

In this case, I'm just saying that if the BS learns from their mistakes but the WS doesn't, then where to lay blame is clear.

And, IMHO, with a broken marriage, the only difference between a BS and a WS is opportunity and/or prior experience. Even the most 'moral' of persons can stray when they are in pain.


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## river rat (Jan 20, 2012)

Blind, I'm going on 12 yrs out. And I believe that this type of emotional injury, like so many physical injuries, may always be with you. It won't hurt every day. The times when it hurts will become progressively less frequent. But there will be triggers. You learn to deal w/ them. I have an old knee injury that causes me to limp from time to time; but it hasn't crippled me. I do pretty much whatever I choose to do. Same w/ the injury of infidelity.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

TCx said:


> I'm still learning but [today] I see there being 5 cornerstones to marriage and each one relies completely on the one before it. You break the chain anywhere, IMHO, your marriage is broken and is in danger of an affair because once you unravel one, each cornerstone above it eventually unravels too.
> 
> 
> Respect - You respect your partner; intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, etc. Because you respect them, you do what you need to do to get them to respect you. This affects how you communicate with them and how you view yourself. If you respect someone, you want to be a better person so that they respect you back.
> ...


I understand much of what you are saying but one thing you need to understand from the BS side of things...the day you cheated YOU DIED! In your wife's mind, heart and soul you are dead. She is grieving for you but this doppelganger that resembles her husband is standing in front of her mocking her. Every time she sees you the knife gets twisted and the wound bleeds once again. As much as you may hurt from your choice to cheat you made the choice to do the hurting. Your wife was never given a choice. There is quite a difference between self inflicted wounds and stabs in the back from the one person you would die for.

You say that constant monitoring is detrimental. Then how does a BS learn to trust a WS again. Because they say they're sorry? Because they say they won't do it again? Why should your words mean anything? You are a ghost. A corpse. A relic of a failed marriage. No, the way that a BS begins to trust again is by ensuring complete honesty and transparency from BOTH spouses. When you cheated you died and your marriage died with you. The only way to move forward is to build a new marriage and in this marriage there will be two very different, very new people. If these two new people can learn to trust each other and fall in love from scratch then there will be a new marriage. If not.....


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

TCx said:


> In this case, I'm just saying that if the BS learns from their mistakes but the WS doesn't, then where to lay blame is clear.
> 
> And, IMHO, with a broken marriage, the only difference between a BS and a WS is opportunity and/or prior experience. Even the most 'moral' of persons can stray when they are in pain.


Friend, I say again that you should speak for yourself and yourself only. There are marriages where the betrayed does not do any wrong and still gets the short end of it.

And there are those of us who would not stray irrespective of pain or stress or what-all. It's amazing how many cheaters go on and on about it-could-happen-to-anyone, it-could-happen-to-anyone. There are some people who it can't happen to. Start there. What you choose to see in the mirror and how your wife looks at you are your business, but your coat doesn't fit me and won't ever.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> When you cheated you died and your marriage died with you. The only way to move forward is to build a new marriage and in this marriage there will be two very different, very new people. If these two new people can learn to trust each other and fall in love from scratch then there will be a new marriage. If not.....


You contradict yourself, I think. If it's all about from scratch, why take on the load of lies instead of finding something untarnished? If you choose to stomach it, it's about not being able to write off the old as scuttled and sunk.

It's strange how people talk about marriages as being "salvageable." When I think of salvage, I think of the cut-rate value of the not-so-rusty bits. You can buy parts from a salvage yard and put them in your car, and it may still run for a little while, but of course you only do that when you can't afford factory-issue.


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## 123Grits (Feb 6, 2012)

Well said (written) TCX!


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

I see it as being one of the walking wounded.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

My h's EA was the worst pain I ever experienced to date.

I do find myself getting angry that now I don't trust him where as before I trusted him implicitly. I hate the fact that I am compelled to snoop on him. I hate being like that but I am like that now and that angers me. I cannot see a time when I will trust him enough to not snoop around and keep tabs on him.

That is what makes me angry is that it changed who I was and has made me a paranoid untrusting person toward him. Sometimes I think it would be easier to leave and start fresh with someone else. It is truly a gross feeling to go from trusting wholeheartedly to being paranoid and suspicious of someone. 

I find myself thinking that in terms of cheating mine wasn't as bad as some of the stuff that you hear about and if it affects me like this I can't even imagine.

I think too for people who haven't gone thru something like this they tend to think well he is not doing it anymore so maybe time to get over it. I wish it was that easy....


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

lascarx said:


> You contradict yourself, I think. If it's all about from scratch, why take on the load of lies instead of finding something untarnished? If you choose to stomach it, it's about not being able to write off the old as scuttled and sunk.
> 
> It's strange how people talk about marriages as being "salvageable." When I think of salvage, I think of the cut-rate value of the not-so-rusty bits. You can buy parts from a salvage yard and put them in your car, and it may still run for a little while, but of course you only do that when you can't afford factory-issue.


Not a contradiction. If a WS is truly remorseful and recognizes the pain they have caused I think they are very unlikely to do it again; especially if there is honesty and transparency on both sides. And before you say it serial cheaters are different because they aren't capable of remorse or empathy. When you build a new marriage you not only bring the painful memories of the betrayal but also the many good memories as well. As I said before many times a BS brings the lack of trust into the next relationship because they know looking back that it can and did happen already so they are afraid it can and may happen again. That is why I feel that reconciling if possible is a better course if both parties are willing to give maximum effort.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

river rat said:


> Blind, I'm going on 12 yrs out. And I believe that this type of emotional injury, like so many physical injuries, may always be with you. It won't hurt every day. The times when it hurts will become progressively less frequent. But there will be triggers. You learn to deal w/ them. I have an old knee injury that causes me to limp from time to time; but it hasn't crippled me. I do pretty much whatever I choose to do. Same w/ the injury of infidelity.


I was 24 years out from my first marriage, and mostly completely healed, and only triggered when the topic was specifically brought up. 

Believe it or not, it was my fWW that would bring it up, when we first got facebook, she was the one who actually searched for my ex wifes facebook profile just to show me. :scratchhead:

But it was so long ago that I had forgotten the signs, and didn't see them for what they were when this wife had her EA.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

lascarx said:


> Friend, I'm not going to speak for you, but you're way off base if you think that you can generalize that way. There are plenty of cheaters that do it without a twinge. Your whole post may well apply to your marriage, but leave the rest of us out of it.
> 
> ...
> 
> Like I said, probably not complete, but very limited in application.


I've thought about this some. I am left to wonder what the stats are on people for whom this does ring true. Yes, there are many serial cheaters out there but are they the rule or the edge case; I'd suspect the latter.

As for my post having limited applicability, that can be said of every statement ever made. I'm offering a point of view and, yes, a generalization. But to dismiss it by saying that it's very limited in application might be true but do either of us have the information to back that statement up?

If you do, I'm keenly interested to hear the experiences that you've garnered from your time here. Are most of the WS serial cheaters? Do most cases fall well outside of what I'm describing above?


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

lascarx said:


> It's strange how people talk about marriages as being "salvageable." When I think of salvage, I think of the cut-rate value of the not-so-rusty bits. You can buy parts from a salvage yard and put them in your car, and it may still run for a little while, but of course you only do that when you can't afford factory-issue.


I don't want to put too fine a point on semantics but what would help you dissociate the act of two people trying to move on from an affair from 'cut-rate value of the not-so-rusty bits'? If the word 'salvage' invokes a negative response for you, is there another word that is less depressing? Recycle? Retry? Remarry? Recover?

Yes, 'to salvage' is a colloquial term that is in common usage but if all that invokes is negativity, then what term can you make yourself use that circumvents that negativity?


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

It can be rebuilt.
What you do is essentially toss away your old marriage and build a new one. See my stories.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

If a couple decides to stay together after infidelity, it is completely up to them. If a couple decides to divorce, also, their choice. 

There is no right or wrong answer. One shoe size does not fit all.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

It's entirely up to the WS whether to stay or go. People need to live their lives for themselves.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

And that goes for the BS as well.


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## Tigrlily (Dec 27, 2011)

I worry that the answer for me is yes.

I reached a point of 'done' a couple of weeks ago - feeling like I was ready to move forward. H and I had some very good, connected moments.

Today I'm back to being angry. Angrier than I've been in a very long time. I feel like each time I take steps away from what happened, the ugly reality of it reaches out and yanks me backwards.

I love my husband and I know that, affair aside, he's a good person. I believe that he believes it will never happen again. But his betrayal is something I am not making peace with - I have not found a way to allow the betrayal and my love for him to coexist in my mind and heart. It seems that our moments of connection really only happen when I push all thoughts of the affair out of my mind and pretend it never took place. Then reality bubbles up and I'm back on my ass.

Someone said in this thread they wondered if it wouldn't just be easier to end the marriage rather than continue to struggle. I wonder that, too. I think about how many ways his affair has affected me and try to imagine just living with that for the rest of my life. It's very depressing. Would there be peace if I let him go? Or just another depressing set of circumstances? 

Some days I feel like this is just as good as it gets to be now and it makes me very angry. His affair destroyed some of my best traits. I feel like a stranger to myself and I wonder if what's changed could be restored if I just got out of the marriage. Could I be myself again with someone else? Or are those parts of me just gone no matter what?


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Tigrlily said:


> I worry that the answer for me is yes.
> 
> I reached a point of 'done' a couple of weeks ago - feeling like I was ready to move forward. H and I had some very good, connected moments.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately those are questions that only you can answer. Everyone is different and everyone has different tolerances. There really is no right and wrong when it comes to dealing with the aftermath of an affair. The best advice I can give you is to make sure that you are at peace with whatever decision you do make. Regret is a bitter pill.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I love my husband and I know that, affair aside, he's a good person. I believe that he believes it will never happen again. But his betrayal is something I am not making peace with - I have not found a way to allow the betrayal and my love for him to coexist in my mind and heart. It seems that our moments of connection really only happen when I push all thoughts of the affair out of my mind and pretend it never took place. Then reality bubbles up and I'm back on my ass.

:iagree:

I hear you! That is exactly my situation!


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

morituri said:


> And that goes for the BS as well.


Well yeah, but I definitely think that is the BS hasn't left the relationship yet after the discovery of infidelity, the WS is the one who holds the most power so it's ultimately up to them how to proceed: divorce or reconciliation.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

TCx said:


> And, IMHO, with a broken marriage, the only difference between a BS and a WS is opportunity and/or prior experience. Even the most 'moral' of persons can stray when they are in pain.


I am an airline captain and have flown professionally for nearly 20 years now. My first career of 10 years involved a moderate amount of travel. I have also traveled for personal trips without my wife.

My wife refused sex almost all the time. We averaged about 2x per year over the past 30 years aside from a couple of months when she decided she wanted to get pregnant. I was the sexually deprived one. I was trying very hard to fix the marriage and to build the emotional intimacy.

She was happy with the status quo. She had no apparent need for sex within the marriage.

There have been numerous opportunities in the past 30 years for me. I've had 2 female flight attendants offer me a 3-some. I've had attractive flight attendants make a serious play for me on overnights. I was approached by a coworker in my office days whom I traveled with. In a foreign country a very beautiful woman I was traveling with (as part of a group) explicitly wanted a fling with me prior to getting married (to a semi-celeb for the money).

If anybody could have 'justified' an affair it was me. If anyone has had easy access it was me. If anyone has had opportunities with zero chance of getting caught and with zero strings attached, it was me. But I have never crossed the line.

We are not all wired to reach the breaking point easily. Some of us have stronger boundaries.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Tigrlily said:


> Someone said in this thread they wondered if it wouldn't just be easier to end the marriage rather than continue to struggle. I wonder that, too. I think about how many ways his affair has affected me and try to imagine just living with that for the rest of my life. It's very depressing. Would there be peace if I let him go? Or just another depressing set of circumstances?
> 
> Some days I feel like this is just as good as it gets to be now and it makes me very angry. His affair destroyed some of my best traits. I feel like a stranger to myself and I wonder if what's changed could be restored if I just got out of the marriage. Could I be myself again with someone else? Or are those parts of me just gone no matter what?


Well said.

Closure is an important part of healing. Whether you stay or go. New circumstances would bring a new context, and thus you could feel a lot more like your old self, but I think we always carry the lessons of the past with us.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

THor...exactly!

I have met guys through the years that I was attracted to and who I knew were attracted to me however not once did I cross the line. Other than friendly conversation in the work environment I never encouraged them in anyway to take it further. In my mind..I wasn't comfortable going there behind my spouses back. 

That is why I feel so angry toward my H....he chose to tell this woman that he was separated (which in my opinion was deceitful to her as well) in order to continue on with the flattery which was making him feel good about himself. When he got home from the business trip he could have thought to himself now that I am away from her I could simply end it but he chose not to..instead he set up a private email address so they could continue to correspond. It wasn't until I caught him red handed and got into this email and essentially ended it because I email her right away and she in turn basically called him a liar and told him where to go. I often wonder if he would have ended it on his own???


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## Blindasabat (Nov 29, 2011)

I applaud you for that Thor, I meet attractive women all the time in my work and have been around the city club scene and see 
how easily people hook up these days. - course I'm not 20 anymore lol but I have never ever cheated or got myself into
a compromising position its too bad we didn't all marry people with the same level of integrity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Well yeah, but I definitely think that is the BS hasn't left the relationship yet after the discovery of infidelity, the WS is the one who holds the most power so it's ultimately up to them how to proceed: divorce or reconciliation.


I don't think that just because the BS hasn't left, it gives the WS all of the power. 

Though, in my situation, I've wondered about that myself. My wife doesn't want to split and so that gives me more leeway to explore my own thoughts and feelings rather than just try to 'get her back' (or recoil in my own little shell and say, "fine, good riddance!", depending on what kind of person I am.)

The problem, I think, is that right after DDay, if you just leave, it creates a void that the other side will feel compelled to fill. They will be losing something and while that may be a wake up call for them, people always try to keep what they think they are going to lose.

This could make them do the things to 'get them back' when that might not be the right thing to do. So they make a go of it and then, 2-5 years down the road they finally realize that R was the wrong choice and they've spent all that time doing things that were done for the wrong reasons.

I'd almost think that it makes more sense to do the thinking a few months after DDay. Don't leave, talk, figure it out.

With any luck, the regrets won't be so poignant? Just thinking out loud.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

...and I feel in my circumstance that I hold the power. H has nothing to do with the OW anymore. I am the one that at this point can decide whether to stay or leave. The day I discovered the emails the power shifted as all that week he was telling me he wasn't keeping in touch with her and then bang I got into his email and yes he still was.

It was like a huge power shift occured at that point for us. I had the evidence and I printed off everything and gave it to my sister for safe keeping just in case down the road I need to use it...and he knows that I have this information.


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## oaksthorne (Mar 4, 2011)

highwood said:


> I love my husband and I know that, affair aside, he's a good person. I believe that he believes it will never happen again. But his betrayal is something I am not making peace with - I have not found a way to allow the betrayal and my love for him to coexist in my mind and heart. It seems that our moments of connection really only happen when I push all thoughts of the affair out of my mind and pretend it never took place. Then reality bubbles up and I'm back on my ass.
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> I hear you! That is exactly my situation!


 Me too.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

oaksthorne said:


> Me too.


Me three


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

highwood said:


> It was like a huge power shift occured at that point for us. I had the evidence and I printed off everything and gave it to my sister for safe keeping just in case down the road I need to use it...and he knows that I have this information.


Can I ask what you think this power buys you? And is what it buys you what you really want?


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

At the time..it brought me answers. Now probably nothing. I think that in some strange way knowing I have all the evidence in an envelope makes me feel like I can use it against him in a divorce...so it is not just heresay. 

Another thing he did was,.....because he was using our airmiles to bring her over here he had to do up a letter of invitation to her that she was going to use to come to this country for a visit so he lied in that letter and said she was his friend and would be staying with him at his address. She had a friend over here already but she hadn't been in the country long enough to sign for that kind of letter...so he could have gotten in trouble over that because the letter had to be notarized as the truth with a JP.

Gosh..just typing this out is causing me to get very angry again about what happened!


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Getting angry is understandable. Just recognize that the power doesn't buy you anything unless you want to seek revenge (or as I've seen some put it, "justice") against him.

Yes, keep it for the divorce, but if you live in a no-fault divorce area, it doesn't actually buy you anything other than the self satisfaction of having the power.

But wielding that power while trying to R isn't going to get you anything other than cooperation. It won't buy you honesty. I fact, I suspect it would buy you the opposite.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

TCx said:


> Getting angry is understandable. Just recognize that the power doesn't buy you anything unless you want to seek revenge (or as I've seen some put it, "justice") against him.
> 
> Yes, keep it for the divorce, but if you live in a no-fault divorce area, it doesn't actually buy you anything other than the self satisfaction of having the power.
> 
> But wielding that power while trying to R isn't going to get you anything other than cooperation. It won't buy you honesty. I fact, I suspect it would buy you the opposite.


I agree. Being in a no-fault state is a good place to be.
You don't have to engage in a power struggle.
Making someone else wrong doesn't always make your life 'right'.
Power over someone else doesn't translate into power for yourself.
Whomever fought for no-fault divorce in my state, I think they were brilliant. I am in the 'Live Free or Die' state - that is the state motto. Imagine if I had to 'prove' something to get a divorce. It would definitely make me think twice about marriage. Chasing after someone else's sordid evidence just seems like adding more insult to injury...having to completely immerse yourself in somebody else's filthy mess in order to free yourself from being on the fringes of it....that's not justice and it's certainly not what was meant in the pursuit of liberty. It's just an insane form of legal bondage that penetrates to the core of someone's soul.


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## Struggling4ever (Jan 9, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> My first great pain was when my wife cheated on me 18 years ago.
> 
> My second great pain was when my father died two years ago.
> 
> My third great pain was when I discovered my wife was cheating on me again two weeks ago.


OUCH! I am so sorry, I can't even imagine after that long it would happen again? No words for this....


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## Struggling4ever (Jan 9, 2012)

Tigrlily said:


> I worry that the answer for me is yes.
> 
> I reached a point of 'done' a couple of weeks ago - feeling like I was ready to move forward. H and I had some very good, connected moments.
> 
> ...


This could have been written by me..... it's sad. I buried it for so long and it was still always there. It becomes part of your dna? I have finally told my wife (12 years out) I think we need to dismantle our 30 year marriage because the foundation is now crumbled (like gravel)... no solid base? We may decide to rebuild afterwards, but if we did, at least it's a fresh new foundation to build upon. She believes once i leave, it will be over??? She might be right, I really don't know!


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## Struggling4ever (Jan 9, 2012)

highwood said:


> I often wonder if he would have ended it on his own???


Because I discovered my wife"s PA with the OM while she was away on a cruise with him, I will always wonder this myself?


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## Struggling4ever (Jan 9, 2012)

strugglinghusband said:


> Me three


me four


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

TCx said:


> As for my post having limited applicability, that can be said of every statement ever made. I'm offering a point of view and, yes, a generalization. But to dismiss it by saying that it's very limited in application might be true but do either of us have the information to back that statement up?


What do I need to back up? You say you might be talking complete rubbish, I say no, not complete rubbish, but it's not like you're bringing the tablets down from the mountain either. Take a look here:



TCx said:


> If you do manage to identify all that was missing, then forgive your spouse and, MORE IMPORTANTLY, forgive yourself for allowing your marriage to go to sh*t in the first place.





TCx said:


> And when a WS cheats, they lose both of those in themselves. They lash out at their spouse because they are hurting so very very badly. I don't say this to get you to sympathize with them but to help you understand. It hurts like hell to cheat but it's silent.


If that's what you're going to be a sandwich man for, go ahead, but those placards spell out what you are, and have nothing to do with me or mine. I say limited application because I look at my situation and I talk to people and just don't see any points of convergence with what you're boosting.




TCx said:


> Are most of the WS serial cheaters?


I can't speak for the ones here, but my guess is, most cheaters have cheated more than once but won't cop to it.




TCx said:


> I don't want to put too fine a point on semantics but what would help you dissociate the act of two people trying to move on from an affair from 'cut-rate value of the not-so-rusty bits'? If the word 'salvage' invokes a negative response for you, is there another word that is less depressing? Recycle? Retry? Remarry? Recover?


Friend, you're reading too much into it. There's no negative response from my side, I just find it humorous and ironic that that's the word people use, because for me, it fits what they're doing just fine, albeit not in the sense that they might like to hear.




TCx said:


> Yes, 'to salvage' is a colloquial term that is in common usage but if all that invokes is negativity, then what term can you make yourself use that circumvents that negativity?


I guess I'd put more thought into it if I cared.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Tigrlily said:


> Power is about control. Search within yourself and ask if you're hanging onto this power as a means to keep the ball in your court so as to always be able to snap your fingers and bring him to his knees because he's remorseful and has no other choice but to yield.
> 
> If so I think you should really dig down deep and determine what it is that keeps you feeling the need to have 'power' over him. You say at first it was for details but now it's getting you nothing, but that really isn't true. You have to be getting something out of it. Maybe having the power gives you a false feeling of security. Maybe you think that if you let go of the power/control then he might forget how much he hurt you. Maybe you feel that if you relinquish control and become an equally empowered team he'll take you for granted again and cheat. Maybe being able to wave the affair under his nose means you can control the amount of love and attention he gives you.
> 
> ...




You hit the nail on the head...I think in my situation I feel that if I do not bring it up anymore than he will think that I am okay with it and what he did was okay. I want to punish him and this is how I am doing it.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> Not a contradiction. If a WS is truly remorseful and recognizes the pain they have caused I think they are very unlikely to do it again; especially if there is honesty and transparency on both sides. And before you say it serial cheaters are different because they aren't capable of remorse or empathy.


What makes a serial cheater? Two, three, four, five? You talk to different people and you get different answers. It's definitely more than one, but some won't even draw the line at four. I say it's all immaterial, the only thing that separates the two sorts is willpower.

Here's an example of your basic contradiction:



Beowulf said:


> When you cheated you died and your marriage died with you. The only way to move forward is to build a new marriage and in this marriage there will be two very different, very new people. If these two new people can learn to trust each other and fall in love from scratch then there will be a new marriage. If not.....





Beowulf said:


> When you build a new marriage you not only bring the painful memories of the betrayal but also the many good memories as well.


It can't be both. It's not all new and you said it yourself.

Just this morning I was going through my wife's desk to pack up the last stuff to send and came across some pictures of us at our younger's first birthday party. She had her head laid on my shoulder and was making soft eyes, but putting the timelines together, I doubt I was the one she was really thinking much about. I threw those pictures into the fireplace. I think there's a point at which you don't give much credence to any good memories you think you might have.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

lascarx said:


> I can't speak for the ones here, but my guess is, most cheaters have cheated more than once but won't cop to it.


Yeah I'd agree. Those who have a short fling or ONS and then feel horrible about it will shut up and work hard on their marriage. Or they'll decide to divorce as a result, and not necessarily confess.

A WS who gets caught in the affair is only luck if it is their first affair. When this affair ends they'll be looking for the next AP.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

I don't see any contradiction in my two statements. You can't see how both parties have been irrevocably changed by the cheating experience? These are two very new, very different people. Ergo their relationship, should they choose to pursue one will also be new. Yet they have a past together so those memories are still present. Some are good and some are obviously not good.

What if you met up with someone that you went to high school or college with. Maybe someone you dated and had some good times with. Now 10 years later you meet up with them again. You get involved in a relationship. You are now both very different from when you were first together but you still carry those memories of the past relationship forward into the new relationship. It's not that hard to understand really.

I understand that your wife's betrayal was a deal breaker for you. You have absolutely every right and justification in the world to feel that way. What I'm saying is that if BOTH parties want to reconcile there are ways to get through it and still have a successful long term relationship. In your case you aren't amenable to that course of action. Many others here have also divorced rather than reconcile for various reasons. And their reasons were valid as well. But if two people want to try to make it work we here should support their decision and try to help any way we can. While I agree that harsh measures are required to snap a WS out of their fog (and sometimes a BS as well) once the affair is over if the couple decides to R we should try to support them and not judge them harshly or be so quick to deride their decision.

Edit: And my personal belief is that a serial cheater is a person who cheats more than once. I know others have a different definition but if I ever found out my wife cheated on me again we would be done....and she knows that.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> I don't see any contradiction in my two statements. You can't see how both parties have been irrevocably changed by the cheating experience? These are two very new, very different people.


That's what I don't buy. I still think that the substance of a person remains the same no matter what.




Beowulf said:


> Ergo their relationship, should they choose to pursue one will also be new.
> 
> Yet they have a past together so those memories are still present. Some are good and some are obviously not good.


You may not see a contradiction there but I do. If it's new, it's new. If it's got the past in it, it's not brand new.




Beowulf said:


> What if you met up with someone that you went to high school or college with. Maybe someone you dated and had some good times with. Now 10 years later you meet up with them again. You get involved in a relationship. You are now both very different from when you were first together but you still carry those memories of the past relationship forward into the new relationship. It's not that hard to understand really.


That follow-on relationship can still be affected by those events from the past. I think my disagreement with this stems from my viewing the use of "new" here as a buzzword implying somehow washed clean. Perhaps you don't mean it that way.




Beowulf said:


> But if two people want to try to make it work we here should support their decision and try to help any way we can. While I agree that harsh measures are required to snap a WS out of their fog (and sometimes a BS as well) once the affair is over if the couple decides to R we should try to support them and not judge them harshly or be so quick to deride their decision.


I don't deride them. But one thing I do see in every case is that all these reconciled relationships seem to be cursed with ambivalence and apprehension, no matter how long ago the affairs occurred. There's always residue. And irrespective of how all bang the drum about how glad they are that they went through the experience and came out with these wonderful stronger marriages, there always seems to be that same plaintiveness you hear when someone says, this suffering life I lead isn't so bad, there are starving, diseased people somewhere in the world that have it worse. Everything is always tainted in some way, spoiled, but rationalized down to the core.



Beowulf said:


> Edit: And my personal belief is that a serial cheater is a person who cheats more than once. I know others have a different definition but if I ever found out my wife cheated on me again we would be done....and she knows that.


I can only sincerely hope she hasn't. If she did, how would you feel? Have you steeled yourself for that day, or would you end up going through all the pain once more? And if you're hardened up, what does that mean about what your gut really thinks?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

> OUCH! I am so sorry, I can't even imagine after that long it would happen again? No words for this....


Thanks Struggling. I got through your original thread. Man I don't know how you made it through that alive! 

Sorry, but I do not like your wife!


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## Struggling4ever (Jan 9, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Thanks Struggling. I got through your original thread. Man I don't know how you made it through that alive!
> 
> Sorry, but I do not like your wife!


I have what some call "middle child syndrome" always wanting to fix things and make peace, some call it "nice guy syndrome" always empithetic and feeling bad for others. I read these stories and I see me and my wife, I hate that it becomes forever a part of people and I so wish I would have spoke up years ago. I had 11 years to see how she was with my Mom, me, kids...and people always think we are the "perfect couple" and comment how she just lights up a room! And yet my inner voice will say things like, if you only knew, or it's all a lie? She did move on from it, I tried but never quite could... it is really too bad but I wish it would have ended differently...I really do.
Thanks for your comments....


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## 123Grits (Feb 6, 2012)

I am new to this forum..but after 19 years of marriage discovered that my husband had an affair. The last 1-1/2 years we drifted so far apart...I allowed it and was in denial. The last 3months were horrible but then I put it all together. I waited until the kids were not around and we talked, I cried, he cried, we talked some more. We both took the next two days off from work and cried, talked, fought, and talked some more. Out of that came, I do believe him when he said it was a one-time deal and that he has felt awful ever since it happened. Which explained a lot of moods and I had to admit I wasn't happy either and had thoughts of my own. 

I really liked TCX's cornerstones of marriage - I'm sure it doesnt apply to every situation - but you made some very good statements that fit mine. 

Through a lot of prayer and talking. I have chosen to forgive and recognize I had a part in this too. We have chosen the approach of making a new marriage. I dont want my old relationship back, we had become just really good roommates. I do struggle with wanting to snoop..and an overwhelming urge to meet the other woman. I know that I still hurt when I get bogged down in the why's; why didn't i do something, why didn't he come to me, why didnt i let him know i still wanted him, etc. there's a whole bunch. and I do feel horribly ashamed and betrayed at times. Bottom line is I love my husband and I had forgotten how much. 

Most everyone's responses and posts that I have read over the last several days have been helpful and reassuring in some way though. I know I'm not crazy...and what I'm feeling is somewhat normal. I am determined to not spend this new beginning wondering when will it happen again but spend my time building a relationship that gives no reason to cheat. TCX you are right if they do it again then it's their fault and that's that.


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## Struggling4ever (Jan 9, 2012)

123Grits said:


> I am determined to not spend this new beginning wondering when will it happen again but spend my time building a relationship that gives no reason to cheat.


 My thought would be did you ever think of cheating as an option before? Most people would say no. I believe most people would choose to end the relationship they are in if they really want to be with someone else? There lies the "character flaw"... If someone can stay in a relationship with their spouse and not even talk to them about any serious issues, while sleeping with someone else...THERE IS A CHARACTER FLAW! My opinion... If we choose to accept it and try to move forward - great. Just make sure you first deal with ALL of the issues and don't rugsweep. It even sounds like you are allowing yourself to share in the blame? There is no excuse. I did this as a means of moving forward. I took some blame, talked myself into believing my wife was manipulated and we moved forward. It is a lot of hard work and the triggers can be a deal breaker. You can start fresh but remember this will become a part of who you both are as a couple! I'm not trying to be harsh, I just see you painting the rosy picture I tried to paint while proving to my wife and everyone else we were better than before. Unfortunately, my libido and my thoughts never bought completely into the program.... I am a work in progress, good luck!


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## Badsmit (Dec 29, 2011)

TCx said:


> I'm still learning but [today] I see there being 5 cornerstones to marriage and each one relies completely on the one before it. You break the chain anywhere, IMHO, your marriage is broken and is in danger of an affair because once you unravel one, each cornerstone above it eventually unravels too.
> 
> 
> Respect - You respect your partner; intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, etc. Because you respect them, you do what you need to do to get them to respect you. This affects how you communicate with them and how you view yourself. If you respect someone, you want to be a better person so that they respect you back.
> ...


I'm still learning but [today] I see there being 5 cornerstones to marriage and each one relies completely on the one before it. You break the chain anywhere, IMHO, your marriage is broken and is in danger of an affair because once you unravel one, each cornerstone above it eventually unravels too.

Respect - You respect your partner; intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, etc. Because you respect them, you do what you need to do to get them to respect you. This affects how you communicate with them and how you view yourself. If you respect someone, you want to be a better person so that they respect you back. 
Trust - You trust your partner to respect you. 
Affection - With trust and respect, you will show each other affection 
Sex - When gals get affection, guys get sex. (I break this out because sex and affection are not the same thing) 
Investment - This link doesn't really fit into the chain. If you spend enough time with someone, you will become invested in them. You will grow your lives together, even if you are missing the first 4 cornerstones. 

Why do we cheat? Because we're missing something covered by 1-4 and because of #5, we have so much invested in our marriages, we don't want to leave. We cheat. We lie. We "betray".

Do you know why your spouse cheated yet? Do you know what was missing in your marriage?

Let me tell you why I cheated.

I did not respect my wife because I was angry. 
I do not trust my wife to be honest with me because we didnt know how to communicate 
There was a modicum of affection in our lives 
There was no sex in our marriage 
We have alot invested in our marriage; child, house, commodities, etc. 

But what's scary was that I was unhappy in my marriage and I didn't even know it. I was working all the time, the marriage was bland, the intimacy was gone, my wife had PPD and that dragged me down, finances were in trouble because I didn't have the personal motivation to do anything about them; I was clinically depressed and so was my wife. We were both emotionally bankrupt and I was too busy living inside of my life to realize that I needed to fix on my life. I seriously had not clued in.

And then I met my AP and she filled all of those emotional gaps for me. She made me HAPPY with a capital everything. We talked about everything, we did everything together, we got along fantastically, and [most importantly] we had a great deal of respect for each other. I fell in love with her.

And I think that's the rub. We're all really good at falling into relationships but I suspect that very few of us actually know what makes a successful long term relationship work. How many of us actually read books about relationships etc etc etc? Almost none I'd bet. Before an affair or marital trouble, how many of us actually have a plan to work on our marriage? I sure didn't. Did you?

The one liner that gets my goat up is "make your marriage your priority" but what does that even mean? It offers no help or guidelines on how to do it. It's a completely useless statement and I see it on TAM all the time. Grrrrr.

Presumably, you've been to marriage counseling. You've already started journeying into the reasons for the cheating in the first place. If you haven't then you need to. Because we're hurting, we WS always find reasons to justify the affair. A BS will say, "You had no right! You are just justifying it! You are still lying to both of us!". The WS will say, "But but!" and the WS will come up with some pretty crazy sh*t at first; that's because....

What a BS can never understand is just how much cheating hurts the WS (unless they are a psychopath). IMHO, the top cornerstones to a relationship are #1 - respect, #2 - Trust. And when a WS cheats, they lose both of those in themselves. They lash out at their spouse because they are hurting so very very badly. I don't say this to get you to sympathize with them but to help you understand. It hurts like hell to cheat but it's silent. For me, I didn't even realize how much it had affected me until I melted down completely.

So when a WS gives you reasons for them cheating, you can either say, "F*ck you! You betrayed me!", like so many other BS on TAM, but that will only reinforce that self loathing and, IMHO, that can do one of two things. If they are a beta, it will make them more pliable. "I am a terrible person, I'm sorry". If they are an alpha, it will make them fight back with everything they've got. I think this is a lose lose either way.

As I said, I'm still learning, researching, thinking so all of the above might be complete rubbish but it sure feels right for my EA. Unfortunately, I only learned any of this AFTER being with my wife for 10+ years and AFTER cheating on her.

So if you have explored the reasons behind the cheating and have identified them, have you both come up with a plan to fix those things? If you haven't, then I suspect that you will never have a good relationship with your spouse. How can you if you are just expecting your cheating spouse to fix the problem. They can't... the problem is with the two of you and I'm betting it's probably because you both suck at communicating with each other. Enter Marriage counseling.

Have you asked: Why don't you respect each other? Why don't you trust each other? Why don't you show each other enough affection? Why don't you have enough sex? Because without those, all you have is Investment, and that's not enough to make a marriage affair-proof.

If you do manage to identify all that was missing, then forgive your spouse and, MORE IMPORTANTLY, forgive yourself for allowing your marriage to go to sh*t in the first place. Take solace in the fact that you just weren't good at marriage before and now you have a chance to be. But actually getting your spouse to admit some of the very hurtful reasons for the above is going to be hard on you too. Chances are that they're hiding some stuff from you because they love you and they don't want to hurt you with the truth. I know I was (and still am; but I'll get there in time; I respect my wife enough not to destroy her with everything at once).

If you sort all of that out, I can't honestly see a reason for you to be injured anymore. The affair was a wake up call. So wake up. If you seriously can't get over it then you've lost the respect and trust in your partner and your marriage is done.

Aside: It has taken me MONTHS of thought on the subject to come to the real reasons behind what was wrong with our marriage. Months! And it only came by me obsessing over it; thinking, rethinking writing it down, re-reading later, talking with others, rethinking, etc. It has surprised me to find out just how many people in my circle have had affairs. Some are struggling 5 years afterwards... and you know why? They don't talk and they never fixed the marriage so they are still miserable and the WS are still being beaten over the head for cheating. In these cases, the WS is usually sick to death of the marriage and are generally all on antidepressants. This could be you if you don't figure this out.

I have never been an BS so I can't say what the betrayal feels like but my guess is that the loss of the trust and respect in the person that is lying next to you is horrific. And thinking that you can't trust anything that they say anymore so you obsess on everything that they say and do to see if they will betray that trust again. IMHO, constantly monitoring their internet usage, phone usage, etc, is detrimental to the BS' state of mind. I'm sure that some use it as a crutch to reassure themselves that their WS isn't on the prowl again but here's the thing... you can't monitor everything. Don't be stupid enough to think that there aren't ways around your monitoring. Accept that. If they stray again, you will find out eventually. But obsessing over a past affair and CONSTANTLY REMINDING the WS of the affair tells them that you don't respect or trust them. That erodes their own sense of self and is yet another trigger for them to want to get away from you.

If that is the case, then that is what you have to fix. You can either spend the rest of your life with that person wondering *when* they will next betray you or you can forgive them and reconcile yourself to the fact that you can't do anything about it. You can just fill the gaps that were there that prompted them to cheat in the first place.

Take away their reasons to cheat again.

If they do it again then that's that. You've done all you could and they haven't held up their end of the bargain. This time, it truly is all their fault.


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## Badsmit (Dec 29, 2011)

@Tcx

I see some truth in this/your statement but it is self serving (just like cheating). Your post lacks any sympathy /empathy/ or concern for the other person (the person who was cheated on). One thing that comes through time and time again is that cheating is a choice. Your post seems like you were selfish and not very mature as it relates to understanding others and being introspective with regard to your own emotions/feeling for your wife. HOW WAS THE MARRIAGE FOR HER WHILE IT WAS BAD FOR YOU? Do you think she was HAPPY? You did not mention what she is going through or how she is rebuilding/coping now. Your statements s are true from the” know thyself” perspective but lack any depth or understanding for your wife. IF nothing else can stop you from cheating the fact that it could destroy the person you claimed to LOVE and share a life should STOP you. Cheating at its core is a self centered act that only severs the needs of the cheater and not the BS. You have done a lot of contemplating/thinking but have yet to make the connecting of the emotional chaos you have released in you wife’s life.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

lascarx said:


> That's what I don't buy. I still think that the substance of a person remains the same no matter what.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See that's the thing, our marriage is completely different from the one we had before the affair. We learned a lot about ourselves and each other and took steps to make sure our relationship would be stronger. We communicate a lot more than we used to and neither of us hesitates to say exactly what is on our minds. If either of us sees a problem developing we look to solve it together. We share everything. She has access to my computer, phone etc. and I have access to hers. There are no secrets. She knows my schedule and I know hers. We make sure to spend a lot of quality one on one time with each other.

That said, if she had an affair again I would not hesitate to divorce her. I would know that I had done everything I could to have the best marriage possible. I would know that I was the best husband I could be and I gave her another chance. If she blows that second chance then it's all on her. Would I go through the same feelings and thoughts I did the first time around? To an extent I suppose I would but this time I am a more confident and solid person in my own right. I know I would be ok without her if it came to that. I know that I could find someone else to have a long term relationship with if I chose to go that route again. And because I've gone through all of this I know I am a better man and can handle anything that is thrown at me.

That is not drivel. That is the truth of how I feel. Don't laugh but when I think of this I always recall a scene from a Star Trek movie. It's the one where Spock's brother Sybock can seemingly take away all your pain and suffering. When it is offered to Kirk he declines:

KIRK: No. I refuse.
McCOY: Jim, try to be open about this.
KIRK: About what? That I've made the wrong choices in my life? That I turned left when I should've turned right? I know what my weaknesses are. I don't need Sybok to take me on a tour of them.
McCOY: If you'd just...
KIRK: To be brainwashed by this con man?
McCOY: I was wrong. This 'con man' took away my pain!
KIRK: Dammit, Bones, you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with the wave of a magic wand. They're things we carry with us, the things that make us who we are. ...If we lose them, we lose ourselves. I don't want my pain taken away. I need my pain.

That is how I feel. What happened happened and can't be undone. It is a part of me regardless of whether I stayed with her or not. But it's how I handled it that makes me who I am and I like who I am.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

Most of this is basically what I expected to hear. Post d-day (the 1st), I was like you:



Beowulf said:


> And because I've gone through all of this I know I am a better man and can handle anything that is thrown at me.


I had not eaten of the Tree myself, but the one I loved had, and as her mate I was expelled with her. So I buckled down and thought, you'll make it, you always do. As my wife revealed more and more of herself to me in the aftermath, I thought I'd really discovered a new person, in some ways better than before. Everything could be washed clean, we could start over. So it seemed like there might be a chance. Then I found out what she was really hiding, that she was a long-time serial cheater and of course, that was the end.

The point of reconciling with her would have been that it would be making a fresh cut. For you, you wrestle with the unresolved ugliness - as you've said yourself if I recall correctly, the fact of the lying still gets to you. And you trigger, probably will until the day you fall off the perch. That's the ambivalence I look askance at. For me, if I were prone to trigger or twinge at any thought of what she'd done, there's no way I would have ever considered going through with it. Pain is a reality, but I won't carry old hurt throughout my life. The pain has to get dismissed. Not by TV space aliens but by your own willingness to clearly see what led you to where you are, and the appreciation of where you are.



Beowulf said:


> But it's how I handled it that makes me who I am and I like who I am.


I say we all remain what we always were, down at the core. If you are pleased with yourself for how you dealt with something, it is in the nature of the new discovery and not of any new self.


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## 123Grits (Feb 6, 2012)

Struggling, I agree it sounded rosy. I want it to be rosy but its not all roses, there is still a lot of talking going on. A lot of me trying to understand and there has been discovery on his part about me and my feelings. Right now things are fresh and new - we both recognize there are things that need to be fixed on both sides, his and mine. You are right this is now a part of who we are but i dont want it to totally control who we are. We had problems that we didnt talk about. We swept them then. Now we will face them. I dont know what the outcome will be but i know what i want it to be. I know what he says he wants too... i feel like all i can do is go with that and take one day at a time.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> I would know that I had done everything I could to have the best marriage possible. I would know that I was the best husband I could be and I gave her another chance. If she blows that second chance then it's all on her.


Great words I needed to hear today. Thanks.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Badsmit said:


> @Tcx
> 
> I see some truth in this/your statement but it is self serving (just like cheating). Your post lacks any sympathy /empathy/ or concern for the other person (the person who was cheated on).


I offer what happened in my life to give perspective because the BS and WS camps are so distant from each other that neither has any real idea what's going on in each other's heads.

By giving the other side of the story, I become annoying to the BS camp, yes, and some will dismiss it as WS justification and bullsheet but that doesn't make my perspective any less real.

Read as many BS posts on TAM you'll soon see that they are also lacking sympathy for the WS. You might say that, "Of course they do! The BS is in so much pain and it's all the WS fault!" 

Well, people always focus on themselves when they are in pain; that's human nature. So I find it helpful to give another side of the story. Perhaps if the OP realizes just how much he's kicking the shyt out of his wife already and perhaps not.

I do empathize with the BS camp because I've seen so many of their stories and the way in which they post and lash out tells me how much pain they're in. What I don't see is many other WS doing the same because when we do, we're beaten down.



Badsmit said:


> Your post seems like you were selfish and not very mature as it relates to understanding others and being introspective with regard to your own emotions/feeling for your wife. HOW WAS THE MARRIAGE FOR HER WHILE IT WAS BAD FOR YOU? Do you think she was HAPPY?


Nope, she was miserable and through all of it. I'd tried to draw out what the causes of her unhappiness were. Sometimes I would outright ask her, "do I make you happy? Yes? Then why are you so unhappy?" And every time she would placate me by finding some menial thing that would make me feel better about 'getting it fixed' but she was never telling me what the real issues were because she couldn't talk to me. We lacked the ability to really communicate on the things that were important.

She was miserable and so was I. In my case, someone came along that made me happy to be alive again; that gave me a sense of purpose rather than feeling like I was withering and dying and fighting a losing battle. The only thought going through my mind was that she made me happy and god did it feel wonderful. Selfish? Guilty. 

But I'm glad the EA happened because it has been such a huge driver of change in both our lives. It woke both of us up and we may yet R and we may yet D; I don't know but at least I know more than I did before which gives me the tools to try to pull my W out of her shell and demand that we go to MC. 

Yes, it's caused tremendous amounts of hurt, both to my W and to myself, but life is about joy and pain. Learn, adapt, carry on living.

Does it gut me to know that I've caused that much hurt, both to my W and to my AP? Yes. I have hurt the two people that I love most in the world and that is a terrible thing to live with.



Badsmit said:


> You did not mention what she is going through or how she is rebuilding/coping now.


I have in my thread and in others. My post was about offering another perspective, not to hijack it to talk about me (it appears as though I've failed).



Badsmit said:


> IF nothing else can stop you from cheating the fact that it could destroy the person you claimed to LOVE and share a life should STOP you. Cheating at its core is a self centered act that only severs the needs of the cheater and not the BS. You have done a lot of contemplating/thinking but have yet to make the connecting of the emotional chaos you have released in you wife’s life.


I disagree. But I also maintain that until you've been a BS or a WS you can't possibly understand the depth of it all. Or am I truly the only naive person on this forum and everyone else just knew what I had to find out the hard way? 

You say that it's selfish and that the WS made a conscious choice to destroy their BS but that is simply not true. I don't think that it has anything to do with maturity; I think it has to do with experience.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

TCx said:


> I offer what happened in my life to give perspective because the BS and WS camps are so distant from each other that neither has any real idea what's going on in each other's heads.
> 
> By giving the other side of the story, I become annoying to the BS camp, yes, and some will dismiss it as WS justification and bullsheet but that doesn't make my perspective any less real.
> 
> ...


Your arguments will so often not hold water because you take the undeniable commonality that almost all betrayed share and assume, thus there must be an equivalent over-arching commonality for all cheaters. There isn't any such. A cheater may find a few cases similar to his or her own, but those who try to speak for all of cheaterdom are doomed to fail. There are those cheaters whom one might even excuse for what they did, and there are those who are worse than you could imagine.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

TCx said:


> I do empathize with the BS camp because I've seen so many of their stories and the way in which they post and lash out tells me how much pain they're in. What I don't see is many other WS doing the same because when we do, we're beaten down.


Isn't there a big difference between self inflicted pain and pain that is thrust unwillingly upon you? Yes, both the WS and the BS are in pain but the WS made a choice, the BS had no choice. The WS was aware of everything that was going on. The BS is almost always blindsided and left in shock. The WS is often left confused and questions who they really are. The BS feels trapped in a nightmare. Cheating on the one person you promised to love and protect is a selfish and cruel act. There are degrees of pain you know.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> There are degrees of pain you know.


Of course there are. But that doesn't negate that both sides need healing and that can't happen while one side or the other is only ever saying "me".


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## oaksthorne (Mar 4, 2011)

lascarx said:


> Your arguments will so often not hold water because you take the undeniable commonality that almost all betrayed share and assume, thus there must be an equivalent over-arching commonality for all cheaters. There isn't any such. A cheater may find a few cases similar to his or her own, but those who try to speak for all of cheaterdom are doomed to fail. There are those cheaters whom one might even excuse for what they did, and there are those who are worse than you could imagine.


Woah, there is not a cheater on earth that I would "excuse" for being a low down dirty maingy dog. Not one, this is a selfish dishonest act. It is not excusable, it is not an "addiction" or an accident. It comes from being selfish and dishonest. Selfishnes is the over-arching commonality. You can't do this to someone you are suppossed to love and not be pretty damn low. How you rise above, is to take the responsibility and stop trying to turn a pile of steaming crap into cavier.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

TCx said:


> I'm still learning but [today] I see there being 5 cornerstones to marriage and each one relies completely on the one before it. You break the chain anywhere, IMHO, your marriage is broken and is in danger of an affair because once you unravel one, each cornerstone above it eventually unravels too.
> 
> 
> Respect - You respect your partner; intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, etc. Because you respect them, you do what you need to do to get them to respect you. This affects how you communicate with them and how you view yourself. If you respect someone, you want to be a better person so that they respect you back.
> ...


Wow really?


I think this is a fail


3 different types of people

1) person will cheat they dont care do it for a # of reasons they try to justify it with BS reasons but they just do it

2) person will cheat but will need things to happen for them to cheat. Once certain things do not go there way and things do not happen they will justify cheating they differ from person #1 in that its not regular thing to them and its not according to them "In their code"

3) person will not cheat if they did cheat than they are #1 or #2 type person. It goes against all there morals and against there code and who they are as a person to cheat. There personality and everything is geared towards other things they wont cheat basically.



You sound like person #2. I am not trying to pick on you but i find it astounding that you are saying "take away there reasons to cheat" 


There are no reasons always trying to please a person and "eliminate" temptations does not but prolong the inevitable and that is that they might cheat. All couples should hope that at sometime there spouse is met with conflicting thoughts and they should hope that at some point there spouse has an opportunity to cheat but decides against it. If you try to change or control a person it wont always work and often fails. What it comes down to is some people are better communicators than others and some even in hopeless marriages would rather divorce than cheat. All in all there is no excuses to cheating and trying to justify it just shows your lack of character and in my opinion all people who cheat are a special type of person. Its to much for me to explain how there minds work but they differ from those who do not in many ways.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

Badsmit said:


> @Tcx
> 
> I see some truth in this/your statement but it is self serving (just like cheating). Your post lacks any sympathy /empathy/ or concern for the other person (the person who was cheated on). One thing that comes through time and time again is that cheating is a choice. Your post seems like you were selfish and not very mature as it relates to understanding others and being introspective with regard to your own emotions/feeling for your wife. HOW WAS THE MARRIAGE FOR HER WHILE IT WAS BAD FOR YOU? Do you think she was HAPPY? You did not mention what she is going through or how she is rebuilding/coping now. Your statements s are true from the” know thyself” perspective but lack any depth or understanding for your wife. IF nothing else can stop you from cheating the fact that it could destroy the person you claimed to LOVE and share a life should STOP you. Cheating at its core is a self centered act that only severs the needs of the cheater and not the BS. You have done a lot of contemplating/thinking but have yet to make the connecting of the emotional chaos you have released in you wife’s life.


:iagree:


I often also find it shocking when someone takes back someone who cheated than they are shocked when they are hurt again. Alas its further evidence of how the world is all in all it does not mean the person is "evil" but rather few are truly honest and not selfish. I think people need to realize that cheating lies at the core and a person decides to cheat. Nature and nurture morph us into who we are thus they are some people who basically will have the cheating personality or "Gene" in them if you will do to the way they were brought up and what they learned and how there mind functions. I am not implying that you can grow up around cheating and thus you cheat. NOT at all but rather you decide who and how you want to behave and act. The only true exception is in forced/arranged marriages and someone is practically a slave and cannot divorce in those situations running off and meeting someone else is all they can do to reach there happiness seeing as they cannot divorce. 


But as far as trying to rationalize why you cheated or why your loved one did there is not much you can do other than look at the faults of the "set" individual and than you will realize that there is nothing you could do. They are who they are and its a shame you chose set person or had to be caught up in there selfish and hurtful behavior.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

TCx said:


> I'm still learning but [today]
> Take away their reasons to cheat again.
> 
> If they do it again then that's that. You've done all you could and they haven't held up their end of the bargain. This time, it truly is all their fault.


There is a huge difference between taking away a spouse's reason to cheat and working on a marriage. The former implies that it is the betrayed spouse's responsibility to prevent cheating from occurring. If a spouse cannot stay faithful they shouldn't stay married.

I love Twinkies. Should it be my wife's responsibility to make sure I don't eat them so I won't get fat?


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Goldmember357 said:


> Wow really?
> 
> I think this is a fail


You're entitled. 



Goldmember357 said:


> You sound like person #2. I am not trying to pick on you but i find it astounding that you are saying "take away there reasons to cheat"


Poor choice of wording. Focus on the message, if you can't let go of your spouse then work on your marriage/communication. If you've done everything you can then it really is all their fault.



Goldmember357 said:


> All in all there is no excuses to cheating and trying to justify it just shows your lack of character and in my opinion all people who cheat are a special type of person.


So special that we make up 50% of the population. Perhaps it makes perfect sense to you that 50% of the population are morally bankrupt. If that works for you then that's cool with me. Which 50% of the populate are white in your world and which 50% are black?

I take a different view; people are complicated and there are no moral absolutes.


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## oaksthorne (Mar 4, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> There is a huge difference between taking away a spouse's reason to cheat and working on a marriage. The former implies that it is the betrayed spouse's responsibility to prevent cheating from occurring. If a spouse cannot stay faithful they shouldn't stay married.
> 
> I love Twinkies. Should it be my wife's responsibility to make sure I don't eat them so I won't get fat?


 :iagree:
Yeah. I have just about had it with people who come on here and want to be cuddled and told that it wasn't their fault that they cheated. I think I need a break from them. Call me intolerant but I don't think plumbing the depths is particularly good for me right now. I'm going to take a break, good luck to all you BSs; you have helped me a lot, and thank you too to those FWS who were able to take responsibility for your own actions and help the rest of us understand a little better what go's on in the cheater's mind. You above all know that cheating is a choice and it can be avoided; and you have said so over and over to those who try to rationalize. Thank you all and good luck to you

Oaksthorne


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

and good luck to you too Oaksthorne..hope all go as you want and need ...

~sammy


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Thor said:


> I am an airline captain and have flown professionally for nearly 20 years now. My first career of 10 years involved a moderate amount of travel. I have also traveled for personal trips without my wife.
> 
> My wife refused sex almost all the time. We averaged about 2x per year over the past 30 years aside from a couple of months when she decided she wanted to get pregnant. I was the sexually deprived one. I was trying very hard to fix the marriage and to build the emotional intimacy.
> 
> ...


When I read tcx posts, it makes my blood boil. I have met many people like him. They strut and moan about their sad lot in life and use it to justify being deceptive, dishonest, lazy and inwardly empty of a moral compass.

It is interesting that his list omits the role that the individuals inner core plays in the choice to cheat, work on the relationship or divorce.i am certain at some point in his existence that he will be deceived and if he does not dissolve in self pity and anger he might look within. 

He makes no mention of the role of empathy, compassion and inner strength. this is not to say that people who yield to temptation are morally bankrupt but those that do and are not changed at their inner core by the experience are. Jellybean is one such person cheated but she is profoundly changed by the experience. 

Outer circumstances are contantly testing our personal code of morality and ethics. We may yield at times, feel the guilt, shame the hurt it brings others and the experience is an opportunity for growth. It is a lifelong process, as we get older some of us get better. 

When no one is looking and we are tempted what will we do? Joseph Conrad's "Heart of Darkness" , Charles ****ens "The Tale of Two Cities" , the Bible, Torah and Qur'an to name a few, deals with this theme. 

The person you are at your core dictates what you do when tempted. Some will take advantage of the temptation, some will pass it by, some will help others resist and some will put temptation out of reach for themselves and others. Who would you want as a fellow traveler in your allegorical Ship of Fools?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

oaksthorne said:


> Woah, there is not a cheater on earth that I would "excuse" for being a low down dirty maingy dog. Not one, this is a selfish dishonest act. It is not excusable, it is not an "addiction" or an accident. It comes from being selfish and dishonest. Selfishnes is the over-arching commonality. You can't do this to someone you are suppossed to love and not be pretty damn low. How you rise above, is to take the responsibility and stop trying to turn a pile of steaming crap into cavier.


I did say "one might even excuse," and not that one necessarily would. I do think that as we slip further and further into abstractions here, I'm sure there are cases involving pronounced schizophrenia or such where we would tend to reserve judgement. Would probably even beg the question of if such can even be considered affairs. The main point is that the betrayed will have the pain of being betrayed in common, but there are more different cheater stories and cheater outcomes as there are brands of cut-rate soda pop. Some unfaithful man or woman coming along and trying to give a lecture on "what goes on generally in a cheater's mind" should cut it out and stick to telling about his or her own mind.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> When I read tcx posts, it makes my blood boil.


I'm guessing you're quoting Thor because you are trying highlight the positives in his story?



Catherine602 said:


> I have met many people like him. They strut and moan about their sad lot in life and use it to justify being deceptive, dishonest, lazy and inwardly empty of a moral compass.


Sorry Catherine but you're way out of line here; please pull it back a bit. If you disagree with the things that I say, that's fine, please do so. But resorting to character assassination doesn't do you any favors and only increases the likelihood of getting banned for personal attacks. I don't want to see that happen.

And not to put too fine a point in it, but you have never met me so that hardly makes you an expert on who I am and what I stand for.



Catherine602 said:


> It is interesting that his list omits the role that the individuals inner core plays in the choice to cheat, work on the relationship or divorce.


Because I don't see any distinct roles here. I distilled it down to 5 corner stones and I believe that if both parties don't build on those corner stones, the marriage is at risk or is even broken from the start.



Catherine602 said:


> Outer circumstances are contantly testing our personal code of morality and ethics. We may yield at times, feel the guilt, shame the hurt it brings others and the experience is an opportunity for growth. It is a lifelong process, as we get older some of us get better.


I couldn't agree more. I also don't believe that everyone has the same up bringing, interpersonal skills and life experiences to guide them to what you consider moral perfection. People are people and people learn by living life and making mistakes. People do good things and people do bad things and I think that people do learn along the way (which is a completely different statement from "as we get older some of us get better".)

So why not accept all that comes with that?

And who are you to say where my moral compass should point? Slavery, death penalty, gun fights in the streets, duels to settle disputes, ritual suicide, stoning/lotteries, burning of witches, etc, all things that one group or another had deemed a moral absolute and enforced their views on others and yet, by today's standards, we think such practices are deplorable. Why? Because we're more enlightened? Hardly.

We are still the same self centered, judgmental species that we've always been. We just have more information available to us than we did before to make our own way through life.

You don't like me or my views on life that's absolutely fine with me. We will never see eye to eye. But please argue against my points and not your perceived deficiencies in my character. If you simply can't abide my presence in your life then please feel free to block me.



Catherine602 said:


> The person you are at your core dictates what you do when tempted.


Were you not tempted to lash out in anger at me? Does that mean that you are an angry person at your core? Or does it mean that you are unable to control your own impulses? Probably not, you probably got caught up in it as people are want to do when discussing topics that are as emotionally charged as this.


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## Struggling4ever (Jan 9, 2012)

TCx said:


> Because I don't see any distinct roles here. I distilled it down to 5 corner stones and I believe that if both parties don't build on those corner stones, the marriage is at risk or is even broken from the start.


If "_the marriage is at risk or even broken from the start_"??? *Then get a divorce*, _or at least a seperation_. Being married while effing someone else should never be an option,* it just screws up lives and changes people forever!*!!


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Struggling4ever said:


> If "_the marriage is at risk or even broken from the start_"??? *Then get a divorce*, _or at least a seperation_. Being married while effing someone else should never be an option,* it just screws up lives and changes people forever!*!!


That is exactly what I've said many times over. If the marriage is that bad that the only option is leaving then dissolve the marriage *before* you find someone else. I also have said many times that if the cheating spouse had put the energy that went into the affair into their marriage there would have never *been* an affair. I would counter TCx's 5 cornerstones with the two horsemen of the affair apocalypse...selfishness and laziness.


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## Badsmit (Dec 29, 2011)

TCx said:


> I offer what happened in my life to give perspective because the BS and WS camps are so distant from each other that neither has any real idea what's going on in each other's heads.
> 
> By giving the other side of the story, I become annoying to the BS camp, yes, and some will dismiss it as WS justification and bullsheet but that doesn't make my perspective any less real.
> 
> ...


I am a BS and when I had to opportunity to be a WS. I chose to end the relationship…. The point I was trying to make was you post lack concern for you unfortunate spouse. WHO is she (not names/status but what type or person is she)? She seems to have a passive personality where as you have the dominate personality. Who is the bread winner? IF she were to speak out would there be retribution (financial/emotional)? What type of relationship norms did she see growing up? What is her religious orientation? Does she avoid confrontation? Was her father/mother abusive? Have you been abusive? DO YOU KNOW WHY SHE DID NOT Cheat? I’ll ask again who is she, what makes her tick, what on her belief window? How would you respond if she was cheating or violating you trust in a major way? 
While my WS was in her EA I was proposition by an Adult FILM actress, declined and called my wife (I was on business travel) I told her what happened. No guilt and yes it was an ego boost and yes she is/was extremely attractive, but I KNOW AND LOVE MY WIFE and the CONCEPT OF MARRIAGE. ICHOOSE NOT TO CHEAT…….
If you want to fix your marriage learn who your wife is and begin to see her as a person equal to yourself and love her s much as you love yourself..


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

TCx 
I don't dislike you, I dislike what you stand for - the glib, breezy sort with a ready excuse and explanation when they humiliate. Has any one cheated on you yet? 

If not, wait until it happens before waxing philosophical about the feeling from both ends. You don't know what you are talking about. Lets see how fair minded and reasonable you are when you are blind-sided. 

How do I know what you are like? Of course I don't. I know what you write and if you don't have a ghost writer then it says something about you. It's my interpretation but then it is colored by my experience. 

You are of a type it seems to me. My father was a cheat. Eeffed up the lives of me, my two brothers, my sister and my mother. He breezed his way through everything. 

He had his reasons for cheating just like you. They were good ones from his point of view. Something to do with my mother, maybe having 4 kids was it, who knows. 

Anyway, his fix was more important to him than any other consideration. Why shouldn't it be. If I were him maybe I would have stoked my ego by finding a few extra orgasms. 

I am certain that if he were on the receiving end, he would not have seen any justification for his humiliation and pain. He had a serious lack of empathy and compassion. 


He is dead now. My mother is alive and my brother and I, the only two left out of the four kids, are making her life very very happy and carefree.

BTW - if you feel affronted by my posts, tell a moderator. Who are you to hand out favors by "not wanting to see that happen".
:bsflag:


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> I also have said many times that if the cheating spouse had put the energy that went into the affair into their marriage there would have never *been* an affair.


Without a doubt, a helluva lot of energy and effort is invested in an affair. All the planning, the lying, all the sneaking around, all the evasiveness, all the physical effort....pheew!


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> Without a doubt, a helluva lot of energy and effort is invested in an affair. All the planning, the lying, all the sneaking around, all the evasiveness, all the physical effort....pheew!


Just think of the wasted opportunities.

When you lie to your spouse about where you are going and who you are seeing you could have had a very honest relationship building discussion that could have brought you closer.

When you take time to look into which hotel you will meet at and the way you'll take to get there so you won't be seen by friends or relatives you could look into ways that you could spend time with your spouse and which friends or relatives might be able to baby sit so you can be alone.

When you create fake email addresses, fake Facebook accounts, or find other devious ways to communicate with your affair partner you could have created real memories, real feelings, and honest ways to communicate with your spouse by reading books, seeking advice and/or counseling.

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to in order to have an affair and the minimal amount of effort the same people will spend in order to avoid or recover from one.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Badsmit said:


> The point I was trying to make was you post lack concern for you unfortunate spouse.


Because it had nothing to do with my unfortunate spouse. I was offering a perspective about marriage and what I've learned of it.



> WHO is she (not names/status but what type or person is she)? She seems to have....


Let's not thread jack. If you'd like to ask them my thread is probably the right place for it.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Has any one cheated on you yet?


No, but I have been "betrayed" in a pretty major way in another domain and I remember how it felt and what it did to my ability to trust my own decisions and even my own capabilities in that domain. I remember the anger and disbelief and it took me the better part of 4 years to get past it.



> Lets see how fair minded and reasonable you are when you are blind-sided.


I was fair minded and reasonable with this person because I understood their thought process and reasoning. I still interacted with that person and I remember protecting myself from them with a number of techniques (mostly collecting evidence on all of our dealings with each other just in case they did it again).



> You are of a type it seems to me. My father was a cheat. Eeffed up the lives of me, my two brothers


I'm not your dad.



> BTW - if you feel affronted by my posts, tell a moderator. Who are you to hand out favors by "not wanting to see that happen".
> :bsflag:


It's not a favour; I truly don't want to see you get banned, even though you were making a personal attack. I'd like to think that we can remind each other to be civil without having to call for mom and dad to do it for us.


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