# Self-discipline and Authority



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

My daughter is coming nine soon, and she has been raised by two parents of opposite parenting methods; one learning more towards teaching self-discipline, the other leaning more towards enforcing discipline and authority. Ex-wife and I sometimes finding ourselves unintentionally playing good cop and bad cop. I googled to find something that explains what I mean, here's one:



> Other-Imposed Discipline vs. Self-Discipline
> 
> We’ve been looking at what discipline means in the last two Family Connections. Let’s explore this further by differentiating between externally administered (“other-imposed”) and internally administered (“self-imposed”) discipline. These are two radically different kinds of control-type discipline.
> 
> ...


http://www.gordontraining.com/free-parenting-articles/other-imposed-discipline-vs-self-discipline/#

So far, personally, I'm very proud of my daughter, she is very well-behaved - though I credit my ex-wife more in that regard, yet she is more disciplinary and strict. She was raised in a rather old-fashioned household where the privileges of a child while they aged was like a cylinder - now matter how mature they were, the same rules applied. Myself, not so much, as I always despised authority that I did not respect. Still, I try to encourage her to make the right choices, and give her as much freedom to learn or screw up as she likes - within reason. She knows I'll always be there no matter what she does, but doesn't mean I would save her from the consequences if I feel she needs to learn a lesson - and some I would enforce myself, no problems with tough love (but rarely, she's just not that bad a kid). Another parent mentioned we should adopt a more... "triangular" approach; i.e. less freedom now, more freedom once they earn their privileges, trust and respect.

We try to work together with this most of the time, and almost always, our co-parenting arrangement has been working out since divorce. But as our daughter grows (they AREN'T kidding when they say they grow up too fast), I see threads like... putting spy apps on your child's phone and all that stuff. When it comes to boys and predators, ex-wife fears that our daughter would not make the right choices. I fear that ex-wife would be overly controlling to the point our daughter will rebel and become a victim to it. Hence our different fears, and different parental methods. Ex-wife is not that closed-minded, she understands what I mean, as she rebelled in her own childhood as well, but believes control is necessary, at the very least the "triangular" approach. Unlike her I grew up much younger however, led a rather 'daring' youth, so I learnt not to underestimate kids either.

What you think about all this? Did your son/daughter end up raised well? Which style of parenting would you say contributed more if so?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You need both. Without wife's Asian background and mentality (and money ) I doubt genes alone would explain their success. 

Wife - bad cop - told them what she wanted them to do. Me - good cop - helped them discover their passions, navigate the system, and so on.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

What if it conflicts, especially when you went through the complications of teens? How get through the teens? Can you give examples? Looking for a heads up. =/

Quite frankly I don't know what I would do, except for making the first guy she brings home sh-t his pants.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

External discipline is needed when they are young. As they gain the knowledge, moral compass and decision making skills needed to make their own decision, then parents can back off. At least that's what I believe.

But just apply common sense when it comes to the subject of boys. Her judgement is most likely going to be clouded by hormones, and feelings. Her hormonal companion isn't going to help any either. So in circumstances where you know that her judgement will be compromised, it would be wise for you to maintain a degree of control.

I remember when I was 16. I wanted to have sex with anyone or anything. My brain was not an active participant in those decisions, my hormones were too strong. Thankfully, my parents didn't give me the control I wanted so much, and kept me from making the stupid mistakes I would have on my own. Looking back, I'm eternally grateful. But at the time, I was very angry and bitter.

Society tells us that kids become adults at 18, but that's a load of bollocks. Anyone over 25 knows that they were a complete moron when they were 18. So act accordingly, don't let her be a moron 

My .02 anyway.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

BioFury said:


> Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
> 
> External discipline is needed when they are young. As they gain the knowledge, moral compass and decision making skills needed to make their own decision, then parents can back off. At least that's what I believe.
> 
> ...


Yes, ex-wife would agree with you wholeheartedly, and I also see your point, at the same time I reflect on, for example one of my cousin sister's childhoods. Her parents were strict, and she rebelled, became the complete opposite of what they intended.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> What if it conflicts, especially when you went through the complications of teens? How get through the teens? Can you give examples? Looking for a heads up. =/
> 
> Quite frankly I don't know what I would do, except for making the first guy she brings home sh-t his pants.


We usually ignored wife's details. She means well - high achievers, well educated, no slackers, focused - but failed to instil any people skills because in her culture, dating is generally a bad idea that could lead to bad things . So DD1 dated underground and DD2 hasn't dated all that much - too busy with getting into med school and such. I've met the people involved and think both girls have good picker skills. 

But I feel the credit goes to me for having helped them stay sane with all the crap that happened around them. And they both acknowledge that. 

Both girls went out of state for college and DD2 is back instate for med school but not living with us. We feared the worse when her cooking skills were basically zero at the beginning of MS 1 but she has really done well there too. The girls know we trust them. 

The other thing is communication. I literally send and receive a hundred texts a day from them. That helps a lot.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

RandomDude said:


> Yes, ex-wife would agree with you wholeheartedly, and I also see your point, at the same time I reflect on, for example one of my cousin sister's childhoods. Her parents were strict, and she rebelled, became the complete opposite of what they intended.


I see there being two factors: her friends, and her perception of her parents.

Friends have a tremendous influence on a person. And in their developmental years, shape their personality, how they think, etc. So if your daughter has friends who encourage her to be an idiot, or who undermine you and your authority, then she will be tempted to do the same.

Her relationship with you is the other factor. If she respects you, and doesn't view you as a hypocrite, then you're in a good place. When parents say one and thing and do another however, it breeds contempt. Which fuels a desire to rebel.

External discipline is applied when people are in training. Only after graduating training, are they allowed to begin self-disciplining. I think using the same template in child-rearing might be wise. So you might think back and determine when you stopped being a complete idiot, and use that as a starting point for determining when your daughter might graduate training in life.

My thoughts anyway. I'm hardly an expert on raising children.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

john117 said:


> We usually ignored wife's details. She means well - high achievers, well educated, no slackers, focused - but failed to instil any people skills because in her culture, dating is generally a bad idea that could lead to bad things . So DD1 dated underground and DD2 hasn't dated all that much - too busy with getting into med school and such. I've met the people involved and think both girls have good picker skills.
> 
> But I feel the credit goes to me for having helped them stay sane with all the crap that happened around them. And they both acknowledge that.
> 
> ...



Heh so you just ignored mum together? lol

I also found culture playing a huge part too, like for many cultures dating is mostly encouraged after career/studies all the foundations established first (hence why I suspect your wife didn't encourage dating and establishing social skills early). For others, dating occurs straight off the bat once puberty hits. Different environments. Here's a comedy about the typical differences between western/chinese couples:






Example:
Chinese Couple -> "Honey, we have been dating for 6 months, will you marry me"?
Western Couple -> "Honey, we've been dating for 11 years. We've been living together for 8, we have a dog together, will you marry me"?

lol

My ex is a staunch Christian and hence encourages more strict guidelines than my own when it comes to our daughter, similar to Chinese culture. Now I wonder if our family dynamics are going to end up similar to yours.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

BioFury said:


> I see there being two factors: her friends, and her perception of her parents.
> 
> Friends have a tremendous influence on a person. And in their developmental years, shape their personality, how they think, etc. So if your daughter has friends who encourage her to be an idiot, or who undermine you and your authority, then she will be tempted to do the same.


Hmm... so far, we've noticed she has a pull with the other kids, she doesn't have a shy bone in her body. Which IMO is good and bad, the good; she can encourage, and maybe even lead. The bad; the sheer amount of outside peer pressure may be overwhelming.



> Her relationship with you is the other factor. If she respects you, and doesn't view you as a hypocrite, then you're in a good place. When parents say one and thing and do another however, it breeds contempt. Which fuels a desire to rebel.


Well... daddy dates =/



> External discipline is applied when people are in training. Only after graduating training, are they allowed to begin self-disciplining. I think using the same template in child-rearing might be wise. So you might think back and determine when you stopped being a complete idiot, and use that as a starting point for determining when your daughter might graduate training in life.
> 
> My thoughts anyway. I'm hardly an expert on raising children.


Erm... problem, I never stopped being a complete idiot!!!


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

RandomDude said:


> Hmm... so far, we've noticed she has a pull with the other kids, she doesn't have a shy bone in her body. Which IMO is good and bad, the good; she can encourage, and maybe even lead. The bad; the sheer amount of outside peer pressure may be overwhelming.
> 
> Well... daddy dates =/
> 
> Erm... problem, I never stopped being a complete idiot!!!


The best solution is to separate her from unwholesome friends. People become like those that they're around. And the years ahead of her will determine what kind of woman that she ultimately becomes. So when considering her friendships, ask yourself whether you want her to become like the person in question. Whether it would be good if your daughter emulated their behavior and character.

You dating is not the same. Be consistent. Apply the same standard of measure all the time. An example of an inconsistent measure would be if you established a dating age rule of 18, but let her brother Sam date at 17 because he's so mature. The consistent measure would be you can only date once you're over 18. You, her father, are over 18, and can therefore date. You are therefore living by the creed given to her.

Another example would be teaching her not to lie, because it's wrong. Wrong period, regardless of age. Therefore, if you engage in it, you would be applying an inconsistent measure. By not lying, you are remaining consistent. You're walking your talk. In short, do what you say, match your actions with your words.

Ha, then now might be a great time to make that leap!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

BioFury said:


> The best solution is to separate her from unwholesome friends. People become like those that they're around. And the years ahead of her will determine what kind of woman that she ultimately becomes. So when considering her friendships, ask yourself whether you want her to become like the person in question. Whether it would be good if your daughter emulated their behavior and character.
> 
> You dating is not the same. Be consistent. Apply the same standard of measure all the time. An example of an inconsistent measure would be if you established a dating age rule of 18, but let her brother Sam date at 17 because he's so mature. The consistent measure would be you can only date once you're over 18. You, her father, are over 18, and can therefore date. You are therefore living by the creed given to her.
> 
> ...


Is it not possible to encourage her to overcome peer pressure, rather than outright isolating certain circles? 'Tis just... seems cruel, ripping apart friendships, especially if friends are just having a tough time and did some bad things to cope.

I'd admit, I like to isolate certain circles too, but that was after I gained enough of a sense of 'me'


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

RandomDude said:


> Is it not possible to encourage her to overcome peer pressure, rather than outright isolating certain circles? 'Tis just... seems cruel, ripping apart friendships, especially if friends are just having a tough time and did some bad things to cope.
> 
> I'd admit, I like to isolate certain circles too, but that was after I gained enough of a sense of 'me'


It's possible, but not likely. Especially at her age. She needs to develop strength of character, and a sense of self, before she can say "no" to a close friend. To say "no", you have to know what you want, where you're going in life, and thus who you are. And she doesn't know that yet. 

More often than not, people become whoever they're taught to be. So you just need to decide who will be her teachers. Parents may take a "hands-off" approach thinking they're letting their child become who they're meant to be, or who they want to be. But in reality they're just transferring that influence to someone else (friends, friends parents, school teachers, etc.).


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Quite frankly, looking now at the friends she has, I'm not so sure if I can control it even if I wanted too. She's too social. However, she has many circles, one in her church, which is a good influence I guess - despite my disagreements with them. Maybe not try to isolate certain circles - but encourage the circles we want her to learn from?


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

RandomDude said:


> Quite frankly, looking now at the friends she has, I'm not so sure if I can control it even if I wanted too. She's too social. However, she has many circles, one in her church, which is a good influence I guess - despite my disagreements with them. Maybe not try to isolate certain circles - but encourage the circles we want her to learn from?


Sure, but why not do both? Encourage one, and discourage the other. Make play-dates with one, and cause interference with the other.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

It's conflicting with my desire for her to learn through experiences with different people, but you made a point about her being rather vulnerable at her age. Also feel like I'm restricting her with that. Dunno, I'd bet ex-wife would fully endorse your approach. I just don't know, guess we'll see.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If she has too many friends and circles I wonder if she is not challenged enough in school. My girls took drastically different approach to this. 

DD1 made a clean break from high school to college. Except her million dollar boyfriend . Then an even bigger break to grad school. With the exception of her current guy - wedding plans in progress LOLZ - they're basically loners. Typical in their field.

DD2 hangs out with like minded people. All her friends are very high achievers. But she knows people from elementary school. Very socially active but very selective. 

Age 14 is different, but she should be preparing for later things too. And lots of single activities like piano, languages...


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

She just lives a very active life with her school, classes, gymnastics, church, family and overall just loves people. She never really changed much from when she was younger, she had to be under constant supervision or she'd start approaching strangers. She's smarter now, ex really hammered on it, but not any less shy, it's just how she is. I'm not so sure on how to control someone like that.


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