# Another sexless marriage



## Wh00daman (Sep 5, 2013)

I was referred to this forum by a friend. Thanks in advance for your help. 

I’ll try to touch on all the important points. My wife and I are in our mid 30’s and we have a 2 yr old. We've been married for 10 years and have been together for 15. Our life & relationship is great for the most part. We both make decent money, have fairly low-stress jobs and have the easiest, most fun 2-year old possible. In other words, stress & exhaustion isn't a consistent issue for us. We communicate well & both do work around the house. We get along well and genuinely like each other. Fights of any sort are pretty rare. 

I am very fit, and have only improved over the years in body shape, employment etc… She doesn't exercise, but is blessed with a thin frame. I’m still very attracted to her. 

The problem as you may have guessed is that our sex life is terrible. It has been terrible since even before we got married. We are consistently stuck at something like once a month (although there were years where it was only a handful of times a year). We've talked about it many times & have tried date nights or making a certain night of the week an “us” night (after putting our child to bed). But there’s usually some reason she’s not interested/able. 

In the first year or so of our relationship, the sex was good enough. She’d flirt with me, we’d do it a couple times a week, and I felt desired. That’s totally gone. I often try to kiss her and snuggle up to her at random times throughout the day (not looking for sex), but most of the time it ends up with some awkward exchange where she has no idea what I’m trying to do and couldn’t give a hoot anyway. I know I need to give her attention & affection like that, and I like to, but trying to cuddle up to her after being rejected for years often just opens up the wounds again and is getting harder and harder for me -- and it isn’t helping anyway. 

In the last few weeks, I've finally come to terms with what should have been clear to me for years: She has absolutely no attraction to me and is only doing her “duty.” Over the years, I've tried to fight off all the resentment, anger and bitterness, and was mostly able to until recently. But it has worn me down where I just feel raw. I've reached the end. I can barely look her in the eye now without my stomach going into knots. It’s been so long since I've felt desirable as a man. I desperately want to just “turn it off” and enjoy our nice life. But I can’t do it anymore. 

I’ve never considered cheating (and I’m not considering it now) and I’m absolutely certain she isn’t cheating and hasn’t. I suspect she just isn’t a very sexual person. One thing I know is a problem is that she has never had an orgasm. I know that frustrates her, which I totally understand of course. We’ve tried various things, but she’s not comfortable with a vibrator or me pleasuring her. I want it for her desperately, but I’m out of ideas for that.

I’ve asked her to ask her doctor about it, but she won’t. I’m planning to ask her to go to a counselor, and I think she’d agree to it, but wouldn’t really buy in. I’m afraid it would cause more friction. But I’m willing to give it an honest shot. 

If a counselor can’t help us, I’m at a loss. I desperately want as much time with my son as possible. I also want to do “family” things with my wife and son. In other words, I don’t want a new family and I don’t want to leave the one I have. But I see now that this isn’t sustainable. I could maybe squash this down deep for a few more years, but it’s not going to last. 

Any thoughts you have would be appreciated. Thank you.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The thread should be over in the Sex In Marriage board....

A few suggestions:

Try to determine root cause. Physical issues, resentment, depression...

Try to do more things as a couple and with other couples that may spark something.

Try to get some covert background information from childhood or common friends as to her thoughts (people talk...), Facebook, etc. Does it all sound 'normal', 'depressed', 'stressed out', etc?

I know that it's difficult, but detach your self-image from what happens between the two of you. You are who you are, sex or no sex. No reason to beat yourself up over it.

Give a shot for counseling as it may bring out things out of the usual LD realm.

Take into consideration culture, upbringing, religion, etc.

and so on. Bring forward your needs and see if you can find hers.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm curious, since there seems to be a pattern. Do you do most of the cooking, cleaning? More than your fair share of the housework?


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

OP, first off, I really don't think women understand how important sex is to a man - emotionally. I know I didn't when I was younger. My sex drive was lower than my husbands, as is typical, and I felt like all he ever wanted was sex. He didn't care about my needs, emotional or other wise, all he cared about was sex. I did not equate it to emotional needs, because it didn't feel like it the way he went about expressing himself. I felt like all I was to him was an object to be used by him for his own satisfaction.

You need to educate your wife so she fully understands your emotional needs involved. Have her read through this site, a lot. Get some good books for her to read. Have discussions and articulate well the emotional connection involved and that that is the way the male brain works.

She also needs to be more open to her body. Why won't she let you stimulate her? Most women can only orgasm through stimulation to the clitoris. Oral and vibrators do the trick well. Would she be open to going to a weekend retreat for couples?


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

I was going t ask if maybe she had a hard time in childbirth or maybe she had post partum depression but you stated she was like this before marriage. So its possible she is LD and you are HD, basically mismatched sex drives. If no compromise can be made, then you both will need to sit down and discuss the future of your marriage and which way it may need to go.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Some people are just naturally very low drive. Some are even essentially asexual, yet will occasionally have sex in order to establish a relationship and have children (which they often still desire).

If possible, rule out all the issues others have mentioned, but if none of them apply (as is often the case, IMO), then there may be nothing you or she can do to change things in this regard.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Married but Happy said:


> Some people are just naturally very low drive. Some are even essentially asexual, yet will occasionally have sex in order to establish a relationship and have children (which they often still desire).
> 
> If possible, rule out all the issues others have mentioned, but if none of them apply (as is often the case, IMO), then there may be nothing you or she can do to change things in this regard.


Such people can only enter into a marriage fraudulently, so they don't belong in one. They have no intention of partnering and don't deserve to reap the benefits of marriage. They are welcome to remain celibate and single. If they want a kid, they can adopt one.


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

As they say. Marriage never fixes a sex problem. 

Take your time and figure out what you wan't. Also take the advice and detach your sexual-self worth from her. Don't over commit, don't under commit. Just be you and take some time to think. 

Some council for you sounds like a good idea as well.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Sounds like your wife could be me. I've never had an orgasm either, and I have very little physical desire for sex. It drives me crazy at times because I feel like my husband and I have a problem with little solution. During the past two years or so I've gained an understanding of myself that I haven't had in the past.

When we were dating, I really thought very little about my sex drive. We didn't have intercourse until after we married, but we did pretty much everything else. I enjoyed it. But looking back, I think I enjoyed it because I liked being with him and it was a special way to connect. I don't think I've ever physically craved it in the same way that he does. Maybe this would change if I had an orgasm, I don't know.

What I do know is that my husband wants me to physically crave sex like he does, and it hurts him when I don't. I really don't know how to solve this problem. I've tried to explain that I still want to have sex (even without the orgasm) so that we can be together in a special way and connect, but I don't think he believes me. So what am I supposed to do? I probably think about sex more than he does because of this.

OP, having sex once a month is not very often. Does your wife truly know how you feel? Would she be willing to have sex more often? Would you be happy to have sex with her more often even if she didn't physically "crave" it?


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Such people can only enter into a marriage fraudulently, so they don't belong in one. They have no intention of partnering and don't deserve to reap the benefits of marriage. They are welcome to remain celibate and single. If they want a kid, they can adopt one.


The problem is that not everyone knows or understands their true sexual drive when they are in the early/mid-twenties (or even when they are older). I didn't. I'm being completely honest when I say that I didn't think I was abnormal to never masturbate or have an orgasm when I was in my teens/early twenties. I thought this was "normal" for a woman and that it would happen later. 

I don't think it is fair to say that someone with a natural LD should not marry. Maybe someone with a natural HD should remain single as well since they could place unfair demands on a partner and might be prone to stray. Maybe someone with depression shouldn't marry since they could be an unfit partner as well. Do you see where I am going with this?

No one is perfect in all ways or completely "normal." I think the bigger problem is when a partner is not willing to value their partner's needs. Being LD or HD isn't a problem in and of itself. However, it becomes a problem when you ignore your spouse's needs because of it.


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## nogoodchoices (Jul 17, 2013)

Have her get her thryroid and hormones checked by a dr who is knowledgeable in bioidentical hormone replacement. Totally changed my life!


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

nogoodchoices said:


> Have her get her thryroid and hormones checked by a dr who is knowledgeable in bioidentical hormone replacement. Totally changed my life!


:iagree:

This was going to be my next suggestion.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

Why did you get married in the first place? 

The sex was never good, she won't let you go down on her, she's never had an orgasm....I don't understand how that spells "wife" to someone.

She won't let you go down on her...is she religious? Was she a virgin? There must be a reason she is locking up the legs....she may be extremely self-conscience, scared, could be any number of things. Have you tried counselling/therapy? You should.

Good luck.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Wh00daman said:


> It has been terrible since even before we got married.


You describe the perfect marriage in your original post, so unfortunately my advice will be ignored as not being possible. But 4 and a half years ago I would have described my marriage EXACTLY like yours. Right up to that critical line I quoted from you above. 

Then I made the critical mistake of trying to bring some passion into our passionless marriage. Long story short, I dragged it out of her that her "low sex drive" was due to the fact that she didn't love me. Never really did. She married for "safe", not for passion. The passion was never there, and never will be. I knew enough about her to know that she has had serious hots for men in the past (and current fantasies). It's just me she isn't into. And it's because she doesn't love me.

Just my $.02. Be careful putting all of your eggs into the low sex drive basket. She'll sit back avoiding sex from you for years while you spin your wheels on that one, while potentially ignoring the real problem.

Good luck. I hope your end-game is better than mine has been.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

momtwo4 said:


> Sounds like your wife could be me. I've never had an orgasm either, and I have very little physical desire for sex.
> 
> I enjoyed it. *But looking back, I think I enjoyed it because I liked being with him and it was a special way to connect. *


I want to be sure you make the connection between this point of M24's and my post. She enjoyed it (and made it happen for him) because she loves him.

How does that differ than what your wife does for you, and why do you think that is?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I think the real problem in this kind of situation is being hopefull that you partner will change out of love for you.

weather its a sex drive difference or a porn addiction,substance abuse. etc,etc

the bottom line is be true to thyn own self.

if you realsied she wasn't the vixon you wanted for a wife then you made a huge mistake marring her in the first place and a second mistake in not divorcing her when it dawned on you that she dosen't really care about the needs that are important to you.

so what to do about it. In a perfecr world you could sit her or him down and say listen we just are not compatible in theses ares and i"m so unhappy I'd just like to move on. And they would agree and split everything fairly but we all know that most likley won't happen.

so we as humans usually try to make the best of it by burring our heads in the sand or trying to comunicate with nothing ever happening.

so now its time to think about if its truly a deal breaker or not if not realise that theres a high % that this is the best you can hope for.

tough pill to swallow but that the jist of it.


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## ManOhMan2013 (Aug 1, 2013)

To the original poster, isn't it amazing how many of us men are suffering through a sexless marriage? Wow! I am guessing this has been a problem since time began. And then women wonder why men cheat! I'm NOT saying there is any excuse for cheating spouses. But when need are not met well, the flesh is weak.

It's funny, cause you seem to have it made. You are the opposite of me, you're successful and happy yet you're still sex starved. I guess a wife's lack of sex drive is a problem in an of itself, not always determined by her husband's success.

I wish you all the lucky buddy. I know how you are suffering. I too am living in a sexless marriage only I don't have the career success you do. I hope you get to change things.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

momtwo4 said:


> The problem is that not everyone knows or understands their true sexual drive when they are in the early/mid-twenties (or even when they are older). I didn't. I'm being completely honest when I say that I didn't think I was abnormal to never masturbate or have an orgasm when I was in my teens/early twenties. I thought this was "normal" for a woman and that it would happen later.
> 
> I don't think it is fair to say that someone with a natural LD should not marry. Maybe someone with a natural HD should remain single as well since they could place unfair demands on a partner and might be prone to stray. Maybe someone with depression shouldn't marry since they could be an unfit partner as well. Do you see where I am going with this?
> 
> No one is perfect in all ways or completely "normal." I think the bigger problem is when a partner is not willing to value their partner's needs. Being LD or HD isn't a problem in and of itself. However, it becomes a problem when you ignore your spouse's needs because of it.



It's not my natural inclination as a man to be sexually linked to only one woman. That's the promise I made. I either do as I promised or I'm a liar. Not one sentence of my marriage vows included the words "natural inclination". I'm not sure what magical land people live in where they only do what they are naturally inclined to do or what they "feel" like doing. People who do only what pleases themselves need to stay single because marriage and parenting are all about service and sacrifice. A promise to do what you feel like doing on the days you feel like it isn't a promise that has any meaning.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> It's not my natural inclination as a man to be sexually linked to only one woman. That's the promise I made. I either do as I promised or I'm a liar. Not one sentence of my marriage vows included the words "natural inclination". I'm not sure what magical land people live in where they only do what they are naturally inclined to do or what they "feel" like doing. People who do only what pleases themselves need to stay single because marriage and parenting are all about service and sacrifice. A promise to do what you feel like doing on the days you feel like it isn't a promise that has any meaning.


Not sure what this response has to do with my post. I completely agree with everything you said above. In no way do I think a solid marriage is built around "feelings" or "natural inclinations." Sorry if I gave that impression. As I've said before, I often have sex with my husband even if I don't "feel" like it. You need to re-read the final paragraph from my previous post. It contained my main point. 

This point was that people shouldn't be excluded from marriage just _because_ they are LD. Forget the "natural" part. I believe that being LD becomes a problem when a spouse uses it to with hold from his/her partner.


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## Wh00daman (Sep 5, 2013)

Wow, I want to thank everyone for the thoughts. This is a great resource. I'll try to answer as best I can.

To the question from "WorkingOnMe" about how much housework I do (I think we are talking about gender roles here). There may be something to that. We divide the household stuff pretty well. I keep the kitchen clean, she does the laundry etc... I do much of the cooking as well. Further, I'm not "handy" around the house at all. She's much better and more inclined to break out a drill and fix something than I am. She also makes more money than me (although I'm catching up). I'm also not a big, masculine guy (I'm 5'7'' or so). 

That's part of my fear, that she just was never that into me in the first place. As one poster said: she'd played it safe. I'm certainly "marriage material." 

Neither of us is religious, so that doesn't play into why she won't let me pleasure her. She's just not comfortable with it. I'm 100% sure she has never touched herself. I do think she is something close to "asexual." But then I remember back to our earlier years when it didn't seem like that...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

momtwo4 said:


> This point was that people shouldn't be excluded from marriage just _because_ they are LD. Forget the "natural" part. I believe that being LD becomes a problem when a spouse uses it to with hold from his/her partner.


This is very true. It would help, of course, if people knew their tendencies to be LD or HD, and look for partners who match them. In general, though, people know so little about how to choose a compatible partner, and don't even realize that it's a complex process if it's to be done well.

As a society, there is a lack of good, easily available information even now about sexual norms and variants and how they can affect relationships. Just getting basic sex education in schools was a battle, so extending it will probably take another.


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## Wh00daman (Sep 5, 2013)

momtwo4 said:


> Does your wife truly know how you feel? Would she be willing to have sex more often? Would you be happy to have sex with her more often even if she didn't physically "crave" it?


She knows how I feel, but I don't think she realizes yet that it's marriage threatening. 

She'll SAY she's willing to have sex more often, but it doesn't ever turn out that way. 

No, I don't think I'd be happy with a higher volume of "duty sex."


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## Wh00daman (Sep 5, 2013)

nogoodchoices said:


> Have her get her thryroid and hormones checked by a dr who is knowledgeable in bioidentical hormone replacement. Totally changed my life!


I have asked her to go to the doctor numerous times. She won't do it. Having something specific to talk to about (thyroid & hormones) might help her do it. Thanks.


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## Wh00daman (Sep 5, 2013)

MrK said:


> I want to be sure you make the connection between this point of M24's and my post. She enjoyed it (and made it happen for him) because she loves him.
> 
> How does that differ than what your wife does for you, and why do you think that is?


I guess the difference is that my wife is NOT excited to make it happen. If she just showed me that she cared about my feelings on this, it would help immensely. We've tried to make THursday evenings "our night." It's gotten to the point where I'm pleased if she even mentions that it's supposed to be "our night" before she makes up excuses. In other words, I'm just happy that she's not ignoring the fact that yes, it's supposed to be our night, but of course, she's turning me down yet again.


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## Wh00daman (Sep 5, 2013)

MrK said:


> Long story short, I dragged it out of her that her "low sex drive" was due to the fact that she didn't love me. Never really did. She married for "safe", not for passion. The passion was never there, and never will be.
> 
> Good luck. I hope your end-game is better than mine has been.


Honestly, I would be relieved if she told me that. My first choice would be to find some sexual energy with my wife. My second choice would be to move on.


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## Wh00daman (Sep 5, 2013)

tulsy said:


> Why did you get married in the first place?
> 
> The sex was never good, she won't let you go down on her, she's never had an orgasm....I don't understand how that spells "wife" to someone.
> 
> Good luck.


I've wondered that myself. All I can say is that the angst from this sort of thing builds up over time. I wasn't always this unhappy. Hope is a powerful thing, an I hoped we could change it. But nothing has changed, and I'm worn down.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Until she remembers where she put her sex drive, I'd cut out the household chores to a bare minimum and I'd get handy. A common theme on here is a sexless wife who has a husband who does lots of household chores. A nice guy wearing an apron doesn't naturally blow most women's skirt up. You need to appear powerful, confident, and obviously capable of replacing her sexless behind in a nanosecond. If you do chores, they are chores you determine need doing and you do them to your standard. Don't let her be your boss. Sex appeal to a woman is closely linked to respect. Nobody respects their subordinate.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Wh00daman said:


> She knows how I feel, but I don't think she realizes yet that it's marriage threatening.
> 
> She'll SAY she's willing to have sex more often, but it doesn't ever turn out that way.
> 
> No, I don't think I'd be happy with a higher volume of "duty sex."


I think she deserves to know ASAP that you believe your marriage is in jeopardy. Hopefully she'll realize how this is killing you inside and be willing to follow through on her promises.

From a LD perspective, I do think it's a bit unfair to expect her to be as _physically_ excited about sex as you are. I really hate the term "duty sex." Realize that it is unlikely she will be able to turn on her _physical_ drive like a light switch. If she truly loves you, she'll probably start having more quality sex with you because she wants to share a connection with you and strengthen her weak marriage. Would you consider this "duty sex?"


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## Wh00daman (Sep 5, 2013)

Thanks again to everyone. Here's my current plan:

I'm composing a letter to her that is as loving, non-blaming and non-threatening as possible. The point of the letter is to let her know that this isn't sustainable. I'm going to tell her what I need from the marriage and then give her a giant, gaping hole to get "out" of the relationship if she wants to, or thinks we can't get to where we need to be. 

If she wants to work on it, we'll try counseling and do our best to give each other a clean slate & start fresh. As hard and awkward as that will be for me, I will try as hard as I can. 

One thing that helps me be positive in this is that I believe we could be really good at being a divorced family. This is changing the topic a little, but am I crazy to think that in my unique situation, we could still do some family outings and camping trips and holidays together? Why couldn't I still visit them most days in the mornings and evenings? I live in a small town and work 2 blocks from our house. If anything, our relationship might get better without my angst over intimacy and her need to perform her "duty."


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## Wh00daman (Sep 5, 2013)

momtwo4 said:


> If she truly loves you, she'll probably start having more quality sex with you because she wants to share a connection with you and strengthen her weak marriage. Would you consider this "duty sex?"


I wouldn't consider that duty sex. Right now, I don't think she wants to "share a connection with me." She's never said that and her actions don't show it. But you are right to point it out, because that might be the best I can hope for with her. I need to prepare for that. Here's part of what I have in my letter to her right now regarding what I need in our marriage:

_
Here is what I need from us: We have to find some flirty-sexual energy. You used to just reach over and give a little squeeze to my package from time-to-time (I remember you doing that in the car a bunch of times). That shows me that you are thinking of me in an intimate sort of way. It never led to sex, but it made me feel great (I need to do these things too). I want to be able to come home and whisper to you that I really want you, and to believe there was an actual chance you’d be turned on by that. In a perfect world, YOU would actually whisper that in my ear… Every so often, when we are watching TV, maybe after we share a good laugh, I’d love for you to come sit on top of me on the couch and start kissing me (or for you to be turned on if I came over to you). That is the place we need to get to. It doesn’t mean we have tons of sex, but you have to genuinely be interested in sex with me. A higher amount of “duty sex” will not work. _

What are your thoughts on that?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

momtwo4 said:


> Not sure what this response has to do with my post. I completely agree with everything you said above. In no way do I think a solid marriage is built around "feelings" or "natural inclinations." Sorry if I gave that impression. As I've said before, I often have sex with my husband even if I don't "feel" like it. You need to re-read the final paragraph from my previous post. It contained my main point.
> 
> This point was that people shouldn't be excluded from marriage just _because_ they are LD. Forget the "natural" part. I believe that being LD becomes a problem when a spouse uses it to with hold from his/her partner.


The OP's wife may not have realized she had a "LD". She does know he's unhappy. He has asked her to get this problem fixed and she isn't interested. That's disrespectful and selfish, and it turns a partner into a parasite. Marriage isn't the place for a parasite. If she can't be bothered with his legitimate and very real sexual needs, why should he believe that she'd be worth two cents someday when he has serious, life-threatening needs? She believes he is wrapped around her finger and her gravy train will never end because he's a "nice guy" and he'll tolerate her ABUSE forever rather than leave her and his son. This woman had no business even driving past a wedding chapel or flipping through a bridal dress magazine. I can't help how I "feel" but I have to deliberately CHOOSE to ignore my spouse's needs. Think of the selfishness and hate that must be involved in callously watching one's spouse squirm in forced celibacy for weeks and months on end! That belongs in a marriage?


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> The OP's wife may not have realized she had a "LD". She does know he's unhappy. He has asked her to get this problem fixed and she isn't interested. That's disrespectful and selfish, and it turns a partner into a parasite. Marriage isn't the place for a parasite. If she can't be bothered with his legitimate and very real sexual needs, why should he believe that she'd be worth two cents someday when he has serious, life-threatening needs? She believes he is wrapped around her finger and her gravy train will never end because he's a "nice guy" and he'll tolerate her ABUSE forever rather than leave her and his son. This woman had no business even driving past a wedding chapel or flipping through a bridal dress magazine. I can't help how I "feel" but I have to deliberately CHOOSE to ignore my spouse's needs. Think of the selfishness and hate that must be involved in callously watching one's spouse squirm in forced celibacy for weeks and months on end! That belongs in a marriage?


No. It doesn't belong in a marriage.


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## Wh00daman (Sep 5, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> *If you do chores, they are chores you determine need doing and you do them to your standard. Don't let her be your boss.* Sex appeal to a woman is closely linked to respect. Nobody respects their subordinate.


There is something to this for sure.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Wh00daman said:


> I wouldn't consider that duty sex. Right now, I don't think she wants to "share a connection with me." She's never said that and her actions don't show it. But you are right to point it out, because that might be the best I can hope for with her. I need to prepare for that. Here's part of what I have in my letter to her right now regarding what I need in our marriage:
> 
> _
> Here is what I need from us: We have to find some flirty-sexual energy. You used to just reach over and give a little squeeze to my package from time-to-time (I remember you doing that in the car a bunch of times). That shows me that you are thinking of me in an intimate sort of way. It never led to sex, but it made me feel great (I need to do these things too). I want to be able to come home and whisper to you that I really want you, and to believe there was an actual chance you’d be turned on by that. In a perfect world, YOU would actually whisper that in my ear… Every so often, when we are watching TV, maybe after we share a good laugh, I’d love for you to come sit on top of me on the couch and start kissing me (or for you to be turned on if I came over to you). That is the place we need to get to. It doesn’t mean we have tons of sex, but you have to genuinely be interested in sex with me. A higher amount of “duty sex” will not work. _
> ...


I think it's good, and I think she will understand exactly what you mean.


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

She needs a physical. 

I became very LD (as in zero)...I assumed it was peri-menopause.

Then I got sick and actually had to have heart surgery.

As I recovered, my libido just exploded.

According to my Doc, a healthy heart can wake up physiology that has gone to sleep.

It sure did....


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

It's begging and settling. She knows damned well what you want. This isn't a "knowledge" problem. It's a motivation problem. It's an entitlement problem. It's a selfish problem. You have been rewarding bad behavior. Stop. Reward good behavior. When you get what you want, she gets more of what she wants. If you aint getting what you want, she don't get what she wants. She values something in this relationship or she wouldn't be in it. She's turning you down? Find someplace to go in the evenings. Look nice, smell nice, appear happy. Make sure it's someplace with an abundance of quality women (not bar toads). No whiney letters. No poetry, flowers, tears, stuffed teddy bears. I'd say nothing about it. She has sense enough to figure out when her security is threatened and she knows where her vagina is and what it's for. A letter puts her in control. That makes you look weak. You taking action keeps you in control. She responds to your action rather than you respond to her. The message she will get is that you are a great guy. You will be treated with respect and your sexual needs are going to be met. Her decision is whether she wants to be the female party in that equation or whether she wants to be abandoned. Go on a camping trip? Why would you want to camp with a woman who withholds sex from you? I wouldn't take her to McDonald's.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> It's begging and settling. She knows damned well what you want. This isn't a "knowledge" problem. It's a motivation problem. It's an entitlement problem. It's a selfish problem. You have been rewarding bad behavior. Stop. Reward good behavior. When you get what you want, she gets more of what she wants. If you aint getting what you want, she don't get what she wants. She values something in this relationship or she wouldn't be in it. She's turning you down? Find someplace to go in the evenings. Look nice, smell nice, appear happy. Make sure it's someplace with an abundance of quality women (not bar toads). No whiney letters. No poetry, flowers, tears, stuffed teddy bears. I'd say nothing about it. She has sense enough to figure out when her security is threatened and she knows where her vagina is and what it's for. A letter puts her in control. That makes you look weak. You taking action keeps you in control. She responds to your action rather than you respond to her. The message she will get is that you are a great guy. You will be treated with respect and your sexual needs are going to be met. Her decision is whether she wants to be the female party in that equation or whether she wants to be abandoned. Go on a camping trip? Why would you want to camp with a woman who withholds sex from you? I wouldn't take her to McDonald's.


I'm sorry, but I do not agree with this advice. Not every woman is attracted to the standard "alpha, macho" guy who wears cologne and confidently struts with multiple women. Some women like men who will actually take the time to write a letter and communicate! He's not whining or giving her teddy bears. He does not look weak by clearly communicating his concerns in a letter.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> It's begging and settling. She knows damned well what you want. This isn't a "knowledge" problem. It's a motivation problem. It's an entitlement problem. It's a selfish problem. You have been rewarding bad behavior. Stop. Reward good behavior. When you get what you want, she gets more of what she wants. If you aint getting what you want, she don't get what she wants. She values something in this relationship or she wouldn't be in it. She's turning you down? Find someplace to go in the evenings. Look nice, smell nice, appear happy. Make sure it's someplace with an abundance of quality women (not bar toads). No whiney letters. No poetry, flowers, tears, stuffed teddy bears. I'd say nothing about it. She has sense enough to figure out when her security is threatened and she knows where her vagina is and what it's for. A letter puts her in control. That makes you look weak. You taking action keeps you in control. She responds to your action rather than you respond to her. The message she will get is that you are a great guy. You will be treated with respect and your sexual needs are going to be met. Her decision is whether she wants to be the female party in that equation or whether she wants to be abandoned. Go on a camping trip? Why would you want to camp with a woman who withholds sex from you? I wouldn't take her to McDonald's.


Personally, if my husband acted the way outlined above, I'd be very turned off and wish him luck at the bar. Again, this tactic might work with some women, but certainly not all.


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## Wh00daman (Sep 5, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Go on a camping trip? Why would you want to camp with a woman who withholds sex from you? I wouldn't take her to McDonald's.


I understand what you are saying. But we are friends and we have a son together. 

I'm going to confront this head on rather than turning into a jerk and hoping she "gets it." That's just not me. 

I guess I'm hoping I can frame the letter in a way that she knows I'm ready and willing to leave -- and I will leave if things don't change. She knows that plenty of good women would be around for me if I was on the market again. I don't know that she's ever really thought in those terms though.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

You aren't buddies. You are husband and wife. She's just acting like a buddy. That's not what you signed up for and it's not what she agreed to be. Taking her would validate her position and reinforce her ****eyed notion that you were OK with being buddies. Maybe after I'd divorced her and found an actual live woman, I might bring her along as a buddy.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Hope the letter wakes her up.

And I'm going to say either she's completely ignorant to the emotional needs of a man or she's sure she's got you in the bag and she's comfortable in that knowledge. Getting married should mean together forever, but when you have deep problems and issues like this, one cannot be so nonchalant and think your partner is not suffering. Who wants to go through that forever?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

momtwo4 said:


> Personally, if my husband acted the way outlined above, I'd be very turned off and wish him luck at the bar. Again, this tactic might work with some women, but certainly not all.


Not a bar. I believe I specifically cautioned against bar toads. I would go to the gym, maybe take an adult class at a local college, maybe even pick up a second job. He doesn't even have to look at or talk to another woman. His wife just needs to believe they are there, that they are plausible replacement material, and that he could be chatting them up if she gave him a reason to (which she is). If you behaved toward your husband as he describes his wife, you'd be lucky if he ever came home or spoke to you at all. If the OP hasn't already engaged in an affair, it's only a testament to his strong character and not because his wife has earned the devotion. She's doing everything within her power to drive him to it. If he got tired of being neglected, the wife only has herself to blame.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I don't think there are too many men who get married thinking GREAT! now I don't have to bother with sex too much. Men get married because one of the main benefits of marriage is free and frequent access to sex.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> Personally, if my husband acted the way outlined above, I'd be very turned off and wish him luck at the bar. Again, this tactic might work with some women, but certainly not all.


It's not a tactic... It's called "living his life," and while he might prefer it worked, he'd be okay if it didn't if he does it right.

If I was just using my wife for sex without romancing her or investing any time in her in the ways that she likes, and one day she finally just fell out of love after being sick of begging me to do things with her only to be refused by me, would it be a "tactic" of hers to start not letting me get sex from her, spend more time exercising, and go do things with her friends instead?

It's not a tactic. It's regaining his life... And if he does it right, he won't care if it "works" or not since it's not a trick. He'd be doing it for himself, and it's a win-win. He wins if it "works," and he wins if his life continues without her... He loses if he keeps asking for sex or writing appeals to her by letter...

It's only a tactic if the purpose is to change his wife. That is not the purpose. The purpose is to inject fun back in his life.

I completely disagree with the letter idea... Just my opinion.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Interlocutor said:


> It's not a tactic... It's called "living his life," and while he might prefer it worked, he'd be okay if it didn't if he does it right.
> 
> If I was just using my wife for sex without romancing her or investing any time in her in the ways that she likes, and one day she finally just fell out of love after being sick of begging me to do things with her only to be refused by me, would it be a "tactic" of hers to start not letting me get sex from her, spend more time exercising, and go do things with her friends instead?
> 
> ...


I don't disagree at all with him "regaining his life." By all means get some hobbies, take care of himself, work-out, get a second job, whatever it takes to find a life that he enjoys for himself. That is healthy.

However, I fail to understand how writing a letter and communicating would have a negative impact on this. I'm not saying he should beg his wife for sex. But that doesn't mean he should act like an "alpha jerk" either. It IS possible to be a self-respecting man AND clearly communicate with your wife...and that's just my opinion.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I don't disagree at all with him "regaining his life." By all means get some hobbies, take care of himself, work-out, get a second job, whatever it takes to find a life that he enjoys for himself. That is healthy.
> 
> However, I fail to understand how writing a letter and communicating would have a negative impact on this. I'm not saying he should beg his wife for sex. But that doesn't mean he should act like an "alpha jerk" either. It IS possible to be a self-respecting man AND clearly communicate with your wife...and that's just my opinion.


I think it's sad that it's come to a letter to begin with. His TELLING HER wasn't enough for her to make some changes.



> *We've talked about it many times* & have tried date nights or making a certain night of the week an “us” night (after putting our child to bed).* But there’s usually some reason she’s not interested/able.*


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

momtwo4 said:


> I don't disagree at all with him "regaining his life." By all means get some hobbies, take care of himself, work-out, get a second job, whatever it takes to find a life that he enjoys for himself. That is healthy.
> 
> However, I fail to understand how writing a letter and communicating would have a negative impact on this. I'm not saying he should beg his wife for sex. But that doesn't mean he should act like an "alpha jerk" either. It IS possible to be a self-respecting man AND clearly communicate with your wife...and that's just my opinion.


she knows any more comunication will just look week. time for action not talking .


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I don't disagree at all with him "regaining his life." By all means get some hobbies, take care of himself, work-out, get a second job, whatever it takes to find a life that he enjoys for himself. That is healthy.
> 
> However, I fail to understand how writing a letter and communicating would have a negative impact on this. I'm not saying he should beg his wife for sex. But that doesn't mean he should act like an "alpha jerk" either. It IS possible to be a self-respecting man AND clearly communicate with your wife...and that's just my opinion.



Okay, then which part of Unbelievable's suggestion lead you to state you'd be turned off? Is there something wrong with going to a bar? What if that's what he likes to do? Is that a bad "tactic" because there might be women around?

Regaining your life means just that... Whatever you want to do in your life... Sometimes you stop those things because you spend that time on your spouse... But if his wife doesn't screw him, he gets that time back doing the things HE likes, not things from a list that you or I need to approve.

The two posts above mine are spot on!


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

Wh00daman said:


> I wouldn't consider that duty sex. Right now, I don't think she wants to "share a connection with me." She's never said that and her actions don't show it. But you are right to point it out, because that might be the best I can hope for with her. I need to prepare for that. Here's part of what I have in my letter to her right now regarding what I need in our marriage:
> 
> _
> Here is what I need from us: We have to find some flirty-sexual energy. You used to just reach over and give a little squeeze to my package from time-to-time (I remember you doing that in the car a bunch of times). That shows me that you are thinking of me in an intimate sort of way. It never led to sex, but it made me feel great (I need to do these things too). I want to be able to come home and whisper to you that I really want you, and to believe there was an actual chance you’d be turned on by that. In a perfect world, YOU would actually whisper that in my ear… Every so often, when we are watching TV, maybe after we share a good laugh, I’d love for you to come sit on top of me on the couch and start kissing me (or for you to be turned on if I came over to you). That is the place we need to get to. It doesn’t mean we have tons of sex, but you have to genuinely be interested in sex with me. A higher amount of “duty sex” will not work. _
> ...


Is this the beginning or middle of the letter? I hope it is the middle. 

OP, personally I think you need to first educate her on HOW a man gets his emotional needs met. I bet you don't even understand this enough to explain it to her. This MUST be explained correctly or she will just feel you only care about sex. We all get where you are coming from but she does not. If you gave her the letter you have shared with us, she still is not going to truly understand. 

Men and women have different needs. Most of the time we don't understand how important those needs are to the other person because they are not OUR needs.

I would hazard to guess that she has needs that you have not met even though she has told you in the past. Many times a woman will express what she wants and since it is not important to her husband he shines it on. Pretty soon the wife starts to sound like she is nagging him all the time because he won't LISTEN and DO, so she has to keep repeating herself.

You need to educate yourself on how to express this need to your wife, then you need to ask her what needs she has that aren't being met. This is going to be a long discussion and it should go both ways.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I've never been a dead horse beater type. If I've communicated something to you at least 3-5 times and no changes have been made or even a fair effort to change, then it's on me to make the changes.

I think the OP is there. How many times and ways does it need to be said? I bet, if he packed a bag and left a note she suddenly would snap out of her stupor.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Time to start taking care of you! It's hard to say what may or may not be going on with her. 
If its nothing medical, then sometimes the lack of sex is usually not about sex anyway, but something else that's going 
on outside of the bedroom. If you can find out what that might be then it might explain the lack there of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Because it keeps his wife firmly in charge of whether he gets to be a human being or not. In the letter, he's basically asking his wife's permission for him to be the sexual human being he was designed to be. She already presumes that she is in the driver's seat. She's already in control of his masculinity and sexuality. She's got him cooking and cleaning and slowly dying in frustration and she gives not the slightest damn. She doesn't need a written reminder that she's in charge. She needs to be shown (not told) how the world works and what her role in it is. He needs the remind himself that he is a man. He doesn't need to dust, cook and clean trying to earn a nookie cookie. If he just has to communicate about this topic he does so verbally and he doesn't request or slide any thinly veiled threat. He's a man. He tells her how the land lays. People write "nonaccusatory" letters asking for some small consideration to people they fear. She has no real power over this man. She never has had any. She's the one not sawing her end of the log. She doesn't get any "just feel me up once in a while" negotiations. She gets the message, "get nekked, or get help, or get out!" If your husband punched you in the face every day, would you write him a non-accusatory letter, offering that maybe he could just punch you in the arm every now and then or kick you instead of breaking your nose all the time? You don't beg for or negotiate for basic needs. You either get them met willingly (to the extent the partner is physically able) or you're a victim of abuse and the abuser gets their head screwed on straight or they get the hell out.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Interlocutor said:


> Okay, then which part of Unbelievable's suggestion lead you to state you'd be turned off? Is there something wrong with going to a bar? What if that's what he likes to do? Is that a bad "tactic" because there might be women around?
> 
> Regaining your life means just that... Whatever you want to do in your life... Sometimes you stop those things because you spend that time on your spouse... But if his wife doesn't screw him, he gets that time back doing the things HE likes, not things from a list that you or I need to approve.
> 
> The two posts above mine are spot on!


Hmmm.... I thought that PART of the point of regaining your life was to also gain back the respect of your spouse??? If not, why not just divorce right away and be done with it? I found most of his post a turn-off. This in particular:

_If you aint getting what you want, she don't get what she wants. She values something in this relationship or she wouldn't be in it. She's turning you down? Find someplace to go in the evenings. Look nice, smell nice, appear happy. Make sure it's someplace with an abundance of quality women (not bar toads). No whiney letters. No poetry, flowers, tears, stuffed teddy bears. I'd say nothing about it. She has sense enough to figure out when her security is threatened and she knows where her vagina is and what it's for._

She knows where her vagina is and what it's for? Really?? How romantic, and what a turn-on!! It is that attitude that I find very repulsive and offensive, really. 

There was a time in my marriage when I WAS a refuser. It was wrong. I readily admit it. Did my husband go and find "an abundance of quality women" to try to make me jealous and realize what I was going to lose? No. He didn't. If he did, I know I would have been gone because I was just hanging there by a thread anyway.

If someone wants to rediscover themselves by flirting with an "abundance of women" why not just file for divorce and get it over with?


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> *I’ve asked her to ask her doctor about it, but she won’t.*


She won't go see a doctor. She isn't interested in finding out why she doesn't want to have sex with her husband. Personally I don't think it's medical and she knows it's not. You don't see a doctor if you don't have a medical problem.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

momtwo4, why did you refuse your husband? And even when you knew it wasn't right?



> There was a time in my marriage when I WAS a refuser. It was wrong. I readily admit it. Did my husband go and find "an abundance of quality women" to try to make me jealous and realize what I was going to lose? No. He didn't. If he did, I know I would have been gone because I was just hanging there by a thread anyway.


As a woman, I'm going to point something out to you. In this description of your relationship, you are validating the things you're disagreeing with the other poster about. In these few sentences you are saying that YOU were in control of the sex situation in your home. Just because your husband didn't go out looking, doesn't mean that a) it never crossed his mind and b) that he wasn't feeling very rejected and taken for granted and in that was having second thoughts. To presume that you not only could cut off sex to him AND dictate the living arrangement after doing so is really interesting.

He had feelings just like you when you cut him off. It was cruelty to do it and know how wrong it was. Why were your feelings more important than his? This is what the others are saying in this thread, even though you don't appreciate the colorful way they say it. A husband that is denied sex in his marriage has a say in how that marriage will turn out. We as women have a lot of power, but let's not get carried away. He can dump our asses and find someone else who won't disregard his emotional needs. He can do that. He doesn't have to just take it.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> momtwo4, why did you refuse your husband? And even when you knew it wasn't right?


I was very angry over a number of different things. I also had zero sex-drive. If I didn't care about sex, why should I have it? That was my attitude. I also didn't realize how much I was hurting him. It got to the point where _I_ didn't want to be that kind of person anymore. I didn't want to be that selfish or angry. I didn't want to get to the end of my life and realize that I didn't love my husband the way I should have. 

And he is a good man. I wouldn't trade him for anything--esp. after reading these boards!!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Marriage works well when people thing long term. Unfortunately few people thing long term...


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

Present her with separation/divorce papers. If that doesn't work and she doesn't come around, then you will know she's simply checked out, and then you will know
for sure where you stand so you can move on with your life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

The only letter that will work will likely come from an attorney. You married a ld woman and are upset that she's a ld woman?


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> momtwo4, why did you refuse your husband? And even when you knew it wasn't right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am NOT validating the things I'm disagreeing with. My feelings weren't more important than his. I'm fortunate he didn't cheat, and that he decided our marriage was worth fighting for. I'm grateful for him for that. And I DID decide to change. I am no longer a refuser. 

Where did I EVER say that a husband who is denied sex in his marriage doesn't have a say in how his marriage turns out? Please don't put words in my mouth.

I NEVER said he should just take it. Did you really read my posts? If she refuses to change, divorce. Again, I don't think he should just take it. However, I see no point in going out and flirting with multiple women. That's not going to help in my opinion. If it gets to that point, you're better off divorcing. And it might not have been right, but I WOULD have left if my husband did that. I was just sharing my personal experience. NOT saying that it was right.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I am NOT validating the things I'm disagreeing with. My feelings weren't more important than his. I'm fortunate he didn't cheat, and that he decided our marriage was worth fighting for. I'm grateful for him for that. And I DID decide to change. I am no longer a refuser.
> 
> Where did I EVER say that a husband who is denied sex in his marriage doesn't have a say in how his marriage turns out? Please don't put words in my mouth.
> 
> I NEVER said he should just take it. Did you really read my posts? If she refuses to change, divorce. Again, I don't think he should just take it. However, I see no point in going out and flirting with multiple women. That's not going to help in my opinion. If it gets to that point, you're better off divorcing. And it might not have been right, but I WOULD have left if my husband did that. I was just sharing my personal experience. NOT saying that it was right.


I didn't put words in your mouth, just pointing out what your previous post is implying. I read it as you had the control. Maybe others here see it that way and maybe I'm just reading too much into it.

The flirting and carrying on isn't something any man SHOULD do in a situation like this, I can agree with that. That said, I do think if he did engage in any of that to give him an ego boost I couldn't blame him. The one woman he wants doesn't want him. That has to hurt like hell and make a person feel pretty bad about themselves.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> I didn't put words in your mouth, just pointing out what your previous post is implying. I read it as you had the control. Maybe others here see it that way and maybe I'm just reading too much into it.
> 
> The flirting and carrying on isn't something any man SHOULD do in a situation like this, I can agree with that. That said, I don't think if he did engage in any of that to give him an ego boost I couldn't blame him. The one woman he wants doesn't want him. That has to hurt like hell and make a person feel pretty bad about themselves.


I DID have control. And it was very WRONG. My husband is a very gentle, loyal man, and I took advantage of that. In no way did I mean to imply a man should just "take it" in my previous post. I want to make that clear. I've been sharing some of my personal experiences here. But just because they are my personal experiences doesn't make them right. I've made many mistakes in my life, and this is one of the biggest. 

I was really just trying to help the OP possibly save his marriage by sharing my past experiences as a LD refuser and what would not have worked with me. But everyone is different. Flirting with other women might build up his ego, but it's probably not the best option if he wants to save his marriage. That's ultimately up to him and his wife.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm back tracking a bit but I wanted to point out that hanging out / camping etc... Will likely only be an option short term. One or both of you will eventually move on to new people and they're not going to be ok with that kind of continued closeness.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> Hmmm.... I thought that PART of the point of regaining your life was to also gain back the respect of your spouse??? If not, why not just divorce right away and be done with it? I found most of his post a turn-off. This in particular:
> 
> _If you aint getting what you want, she don't get what she wants. She values something in this relationship or she wouldn't be in it. She's turning you down? Find someplace to go in the evenings. Look nice, smell nice, appear happy. Make sure it's someplace with an abundance of quality women (not bar toads). No whiney letters. No poetry, flowers, tears, stuffed teddy bears. I'd say nothing about it. She has sense enough to figure out when her security is threatened and she knows where her vagina is and what it's for._
> 
> ...


1. What her vagina is for, pretty forceful rhetoric and crude, but procreation is what it's for so he is correct... He's not trying to romance you so...

2. Why not get a divorce? Easy, his wife might turn around... You give her a deadline and go...

None of these things aren't in line with regaining his life...

Again, your missing the purpose. You're suggesting that hanging around a bunch of women might not work or that it wouldn't have worked for you... Again, it's NOT meant to "work" in the first place... He wouldn't be doing it to get her back. He would be doing it to have some damn fun... If it got her back, he wins. If it didn't, he wins...

Anything wrong with the advice, again, other the WAY he stated it?

As far as things hanging by a thread, if I'm doing nothing wrong then why would I care that my wife was hanging by a thread? Her loss!

Now, if I was doing something wrong, different story...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"My husband is a very gentle, loyal man, and I took advantage of that."

Nowhere in my post did I suggest flirting with other women or even talking to one. I wonder if you would have been as quick to take your husband for granted if you knew he was surrounded by female competition. A person who has no competition for a job or position isn't nearly as motivated as someone who knows or suspects others are eagerly waiting to unseat them. Women generally are quite competitive. The OP's wife probably doesn't spend a lot of time on her appearance if she expects to spend the day with him but if she is going out where other women will see her, she likely will fix herself up. The OP has received an abundance of advise. He can take or leave any of it.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

Hmmm the flirting part... It's disrespectful to a sexual relationship... Not a platonic one...

Maybe he meets a girl that wants him... Then before any cheating happens, he can officially end it.

No one is anyone's prisoner. Marriage is a willing residence, not a detainment.

Besides he can hang around a bunch of girls and not necessarily flirt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The point of going somewhere where quality women are isn't for him to have fun and it isn't to punish his wife or piss her off. It's to remind her that she's in a daily contest that will last her whole life. Getting married is the beginning. It isn't the finish line. If you don't continue to woo your mate, you don't deserve them and you likely won't keep him/her. His indifferent wife is too comfortable sitting on her non-sexual behind, thinking she's the only game in town. It wouldn't hurt for her to realize she has something she could lose. If she doesn't pet her dog, someone else will.


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## Wh00daman (Sep 5, 2013)

I truly appreciate all the input from everyone. I have a lot to think about.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

Wow a lot of really strong feelings in this thread. Can I just say, some women really don't know how much it means to a man to have regular sex. I know it seems very obvious to people on TAM because its such a hot topic, but before I arrived to TAM I had NO idea.

Even if my xh was complaining about not having enough sex I would have thought it was just that, complaining. Similar as I would complain about not enough gym time, date nights, working too much, etc. We both sigh, say oh we should make more effort, then nothing happens. Because it was so far from my experience I just truly had NO idea.

I don't know from the OP description how much he has actually explained to his wife about the problem. My opinion is that the letter is a good idea. She needs to relate the issue to something she can understand. Its not like you are missing going to the gym, its something you think about every day, every hour. You miss her and you can't live like this. You BOTH need to figure out how to make it work.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I don't understand what it feels like to have a period. I do know if my wife is hurting and asks me to get a heating pad or some tylenol, I move. If my kid is hungry, I feed him. If my wife is cold, I get her a coat or a blanket. I don't need to have a bone sticking out of my own arm to know my wife is in pain if one is sticking out of her's.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> I don't understand what it feels like to have a period. I do know if my wife is hurting and asks me to get a heating pad or some tylenol, I move. If my kid is hungry, I feed him. If my wife is cold, I get her a coat or a blanket. I don't need to have a bone sticking out of my own arm to know my wife is in pain if one is sticking out of her's.


But this is exactly what I mean. If my ex was sick I would take care of him. If hungry I would make him food. If sad I would console. But somehow, the sex thing...it just DID NOT COMPUTE. Somehow reading TAM has made me understand but he did not explain it to me, or I didn't get it. I am not a heartless woman I just didn't get it.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

greenfern said:


> But this is exactly what I mean. If my ex was sick I would take care of him. If hungry I would make him food. If sad I would console. But somehow, the sex thing...it just DID NOT COMPUTE. Somehow reading TAM has made me understand but he did not explain it to me, or I didn't get it. I am not a heartless woman I just didn't get it.


But he explained it to you, right? And you cared, right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

No - my ex never did explain it. We divorced and lack of intimacy/growing apart definitely contributed but he never said "I need more sex it is very important to me". Maybe he said "I want more sex" or "we should have more sex" but it was never made clear to me that it was any more important than anything else missing in our relationship.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

Maybe I'm not clear on my advice/question - I think the OP should try harder to explain to his wife. It is possible that she just doesn't understand. If she does understand then I agree with 90% of the posts here. But just consider the fact that she doesn't get it. She just sees him complaining about lack of sex. I complain about too much work. I complain about the kids taking up too much time, about housework. 

Here is an example, if one day I just came out and said to my h, "I have told you repeatedly about taking out the garbage and told you it was important to me but you ignored me so I'm divorcing you". Everyone would agree it would be ridiculous right? But somehow you think she should understand that sex is much higher on the list. What if he never said "I love you". She says, it means so much to me I need you to say it more. People would not call him a heartless bastard they would say she needs to more clearly explain why she needs to hear that.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Writing a letter is fine. Use it to help prioritize and clarify your thoughts. For this, it's a good exercise.

However, giving her a letter is weak. If you believe what you are thinking, you should be able to be strong, look her in the eye and deliver the message squarely. This is important. This is top of mind. You need to deal with her directly and you need to see her true (not rehearsed) reaction when you lay things on the line. 

If you want the results you seek, direct communication & interaction is the only way to go. Relying on the letter to convey your message is wimpy and ultimately will be counter-productive. Every wife wants a strong mate. If you're not strong enough to look her in the eye and tell her exactly what you want, you should just skip everything else and proceed to your fantasy-land highly unlikely "we're such civilized friends" divorce. 

If you get a divorce, fully expect that she's going to hook up with a guy that she wants to have crazy monkey sex with everynight. That guy will be raising your son half the time. Want to avoid that fate. Cut the mamby pamby letter stuff and man the f**k up.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

MarriedTex said:


> Writing a letter is fine. Use it to help prioritize and clarify your thoughts. For this, it's a good exercise.
> 
> However, giving her a letter is weak. If you believe what you are thinking, you should be able to be strong, look her in the eye and deliver the message squarely. This is important. This is top of mind. You need to deal with her directly and you need to see her true (not rehearsed) reaction when you lay things on the line.
> 
> ...


Yes this is a great idea. Also I do think that somehow without being too false, if she knows you are a sexual being (other women being attracted to you) that would maybe go a long ways in getting her to be more physically attracted to you. Its one thing to make her understand sex is important but then you both need to figure out how to make it good sex.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

greenfern said:


> No - my ex never did explain it. We divorced and lack of intimacy/growing apart definitely contributed but he never said "I need more sex it is very important to me". Maybe he said "I want more sex" or "we should have more sex" but it was never made clear to me that it was any more important than anything else missing in our relationship.


Then that's on him.

The OP is at wit's end.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

Interlocutor said:


> Then that's on him.
> 
> The OP is at wit's end.


What if the OP wife came on here and said that she had no idea how much this meant to him. He is at wit's end but she might not really understand WHY.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

greenfern said:


> Maybe I'm not clear on my advice/question - I think the OP should try harder to explain to his wife. It is possible that she just doesn't understand. If she does understand then I agree with 90% of the posts here. But just consider the fact that she doesn't get it. She just sees him complaining about lack of sex. I complain about too much work. I complain about the kids taking up too much time, about housework.
> 
> Here is an example, if one day I just came out and said to my h, "I have told you repeatedly about taking out the garbage and told you it was important to me but you ignored me so I'm divorcing you". Everyone would agree it would be ridiculous right? But somehow you think she should understand that sex is much higher on the list. What if he never said "I love you". She says, it means so much to me I need you to say it more. People would not call him a heartless bastard they would say she needs to more clearly explain why she needs to hear that.


What if you had been asking about the garbage for a year?

And no, if a woman needed to be told "I love you," explained that to her husband, and still didn't hear it, then I'd say that husband was an idiot, refusing his wife's very simple need, one another man would be happy to meet.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

greenfern said:


> What if the OP wife came on here and said that she had no idea how much this meant to him. He is at wit's end but she might not really understand WHY.


So, you are somehow stating that the OP has told her sex is important to him, but she still might not know that sex is important to him?

You think that if he just added the simple addendum, "Why? Because it feels good and meets my sexual needs," she would have just done a complete 180 and said, "Oh! That's why? OK, let's have sex," and all of a sudden be interested in HIM? I don't think that's likely here.

I agree with you in the case where the husband has not explained... But if he HAS explained, let's not split hairs just to avoid conceding, I think.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

greenfern said:


> What if the OP wife came on here and said that she had no idea how much this meant to him. He is at wit's end but she might not really understand WHY.


Then the OP was not honest about claiming he has brought this up to her many times.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

Man: "Sex is important to me, honey. We should be having some."

Woman: "Husband, unless you can successfully explain to me why it's important to you, I don't believe you/care."

*sigh*


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

Well I disagree that "because it feels good and meets my sexual needs" is a strong enough statement. That sounds like a 'nice to have' rather than a 'this is a dealbreaker and affects me every single day".

I personally think that just knowing he is close to divorce would kick her into gear to comprehension. Maybe MC.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

greenfern said:


> What if the OP wife came on here and said that she had no idea how much this meant to him. He is at wit's end but she might not really understand WHY.


She doesn't need to understand why it means whatever it means to him. He expressed a need (repeatedly). He begged her to get help. She gives a rat's a$$. I have no idea why my wife wants or likes 90% of the crap that's important to her. It makes no sense to me why she can't get on an airplane or sleep with the light off or why she likes that stupid "Dance Mom's" or Jif peanut butter. I don't have to know why. I just have to know something is important to her. If she's important to me, her needs will be important to me. If her needs don't matter to me, she doesn't matter to me. It's really pretty simple. Is there seriously a woman on this earth who believes a man gets married to a woman because he wants a buddy?


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

Interlocutor said:


> Man: "Sex is important to me, honey. We should be having some."
> 
> Woman: "Husband, unless you can successfully explain to me why it's important to you, I don't believe you/care."
> 
> *sigh*


You make the woman sound so harsh. I might have been this woman, hearing a complaint but really not understanding it. I really think a good week of the woman reading the sex in marriage threads on TAM would help.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

greenfern said:


> Well I disagree that "because it feels good and meets my sexual needs" is a strong enough statement. That sounds like a 'nice to have' rather than a 'this is a dealbreaker and affects me every single day".
> 
> I personally think that just knowing he is close to divorce would kick her into gear to comprehension. Maybe MC.


That was my quick jot for the sake of example... You could say anything in that slot, my point was that the issue is likely motivation rather than lack of explanation... Has the OP said anything that leads us to believe he hasn't explained himself? I thought he mentioned somewhere that he has talked to her many times... You think it wouldn't have occurred to him in his discussions on why they should be having sex why they should be having sex? Maybe... Seems unlikely to me.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"Will you be my mate? Oh, incidentally, mating will be expected, just in case you weren't clear." Did she think she was signing up for a volleyball team?


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> She doesn't need to understand why it means whatever it means to him. He expressed a need (repeatedly). He begged her to get help. She gives a rat's a$$. I have no idea why my wife wants or likes 90% of the crap that's important to her. It makes no sense to me why she can't get on an airplane or sleep with the light off or why she likes that stupid "Dance Mom's" or Jif peanut butter. I don't have to know why. I just have to know something is important to her. If she's important to me, her needs will be important to me. If her needs don't matter to me, she doesn't matter to me. It's really pretty simple. Is there seriously a woman on this earth who believes a man gets married to a woman because he wants a buddy?


Sleeping with the light off & Jif peanut butter is different than sex. From my perspective there are two groups of people on the TAM sexless marriage threads:
1. THe guy (or more rarely girl) that is in a sexless marriage and is desperate
2. The TAMMers that have been on here for months or years, and have a VERY well understand experience of the impact of a sexless marriage.

I'm just pointing out that the 3rd group of people maybe have no idea this concept exists and how much it means to people embroiled in it. I dont' know if the OP 'begged' his wife to get help. Sounded to me like he suggested she see a dr about her sex drive and she thinks there is nothing wrong with her sex drive. I would have said the same thing.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

greenfern said:


> You make the woman sound so harsh. I might have been this woman, hearing a complaint but really not understanding it. I really think a good week of the woman reading the sex in marriage threads on TAM would help.


You could decorate any argument with a zillion ruffles, but sorry that is what you're saying is happening...

I think ALL women and men should read up on here... I think the mass media is playing a hand in the poor sexual relationships we have today...


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## MambaZee (Aug 6, 2013)

greenfern said:


> I really think a good week of the woman reading the sex in marriage threads on TAM would help.


It definitely would've helped me a year ago. While I never cut my H off, we weren't having sex as much as he wanted. Instead of the 3-4x per week that was typical for us before, it was down to about 1x per week, but when we weren't speaking, it could go once every 2-3 weeks, and for us, that was very unusual. I didn't like it, either, but was too angry to feel sexual with him. I masturbated during these times, but he doesn't like masturbating. He did admit to me that he did it once or twice and he didn't like it; when he told me about it, he was clearly blaming me for him having to "resort" to that. 

However, the only reason we're in a better place now is because he's worked _very_ hard on communication. If I saw no effort from him on this front, maybe we'd still be in that bad place.

Once I realized I wanted our marriage to work, I started reading and finding out how to make it better. _Only_ then did I see the importance of sex to my H. He never said it was important, either, so I'm not sure how the OP is wording it to his W. At the very least, she needs to read a book/site and get informed on how important this is to the marriage.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

Interlocutor said:


> I think ALL women and men should read up on here... I think the mass media is playing a hand in the poor sexual relationships we have today...


Finally I can "like" something you are saying. 

But call it 'ruffles' on an argument or not, an effective communicator will not just repeat the same refrain over & over, they will work to make themselves understood. Again I don't know if the OP has done this or not because his wife isn't on here. If he has, and she understands & doesn't care, then I have already said I agree he needs to step up the repercussions.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

Look, sex is important to women too, so let's stop dividing the genders.

Does a man ever need an explanation from his wife why he should have sex with her?

Somehow, my wife doesn't need to explain that to me. I kind of just "know."


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

greenfern said:


> Finally I can "like" something you are saying.
> 
> But call it 'ruffles' on an argument or not, an effective communicator will not just repeat the same refrain over & over, they will work to make themselves understood. Again I don't know if the OP has done this or not because his wife isn't on here. If he has, and she understands & doesn't care, then I have already said I agree he needs to step up the repercussions.


You have not disagreed with me. You just think that he hasn't explained himself, but we have some rough evidence to the contrary, although it is still possible. 

I can tell you're one of the good women here.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

greenfern said:


> You make the woman sound so harsh. I might have been this woman, hearing a complaint but really not understanding it. I really think a good week of the woman reading the sex in marriage threads on TAM would help.


Hearing but not understanding.... In a society where women are the empathic communicators able to recognize what their toddlers are babbling or where does it hurt in an instant but men are utter dolts unable to even express why sex is so important to them...

I don't think so... After you've told the hubby 80% of the time you have a headache or are not in the mood for X, you can't solve for X?


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

john117 said:


> Hearing but not understanding.... In a society where women are the empathic communicators able to recognize what their toddlers are babbling or where does it hurt in an instant but men are utter dolts unable to even express why sex is so important to them...
> 
> I don't think so... After you've told the hubby 80% of the time you have a headache or are not in the mood for X, you can't solve for X?


All I'm saying, for what it's worth, is that I am a female and I am not as empathic to adult males as maybe you would expect. For example I can identify when my child who is having a tantrum is secretly very upset about a friend teasing him, but as soon as I'm confronted with an angry looking adult male all powers of empathy shut down and I feel Incapable of understanding. The same methods don't work for very one and it's amazing how partners can totally misunderstand the other.

This reminds me of the "non violent communication" method, it's super interesting and involves methods of communication that ensure the person you are speaking to understands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Interlocutor said:


> Look, sex is important to women too, so let's stop dividing the genders.
> 
> Does a man ever need an explanation from his wife why he should have sex with her?
> 
> Somehow, my wife doesn't need to explain that to me. I kind of just "know."


If it's not my place to take care of my wife's sexual needs, who's place is it? If I expect her to be faithful, it follows that I have agreed to take care of her reasonable sexual needs. I don't have the right to turn a sexual being into a celibate zombie against their will any more than I have the right to starve another human. Whether the withholder is a man or a woman makes no difference. It's cruel and dehumanizing. I'm not talking about once a week vs 3-4 times a week. I'm talking about making someone twist for weeks and months, maybe even years at a time. Anyone with the slightest trace residue of humanity knows that is cruel.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

greenfern said:


> All I'm saying, for what it's worth, is that I am a female and I am not as empathic to adult males as maybe you would expect. For example I can identify when my child who is having a tantrum is secretly very upset about a friend teasing him, but as soon as I'm confronted with an angry looking adult male all powers of empathy shut down and I feel Incapable of understanding. The same methods don't work for very one and it's amazing how partners can totally misunderstand the other.


That angry looking male is also known as your partner. After a decade or so, maybe less, you should be able to read him like a book. 

In my case, reading is not required. My wife's position is that great nookie once a month is more than adequate and that she does not believe that nookie enhances the relationship or maintains emotional connection. This after 25 years of reasonably good marriage nookie wise.

Furthermore she maintains emotional connection is for those under 18. So, all the communication that is needed has already been made and she would not change her mind if Brad Pitt, Harrison Ford, and Anderson Cooper all showed up at our house ready (let's just say Anderson's name has Ben dropped from her list as of late )

So, the choice is great nookie once a month or "Call of Duty 6: Marital Warfare" and near complete disconnect. Easy choice.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> ...making someone twist for weeks and months, maybe even years at a time. Anyone with the slightest trace residue of humanity knows that is cruel.


Call of Duty 6 time... See above.

After a certain point communication is irrelevant and even counterproductive. Marital fireworks are lots more fun and just as counterproductive.

Q.E.D.


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> I'm sorry, but I do not agree with this advice. Not every woman is attracted to the standard "alpha, macho" guy who wears cologne and confidently struts with multiple women. Some women like men who will actually take the time to write a letter and communicate! He's not whining or giving her teddy bears. He does not look weak by clearly communicating his concerns in a letter.


You do not have a clue. Not a single clue. Pm a lady on this forum called Holland, if you can only take in a female perspective on being in a sexless marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spinner (Jul 26, 2013)

To me it sounds like your wife just doesn't enjoy sex. Especially if she never orgasms. Either you're doing it wrong, she has a medical condition, or she's been conditioned to believe that sex is dirty and not to be enjoyed. Assuming its not that you're a clod in the bedroom, she has got to see a professional to resolve this. Maybe check around for a sex therapist in your area.

A couple I know had a low sex marriage because of the wife and the husband just went on and on "she doesnt love me!" They eventually found out she had a tipped uterus that made sex painful for her. She'd seen a gynocologist many times, but he never mentioned it. He retires and the wife sees a new gyno, he notices right away, schedules her for a hysterectomy, and the lovebirds have been doing it like bunnies ever since.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MT4,
Menopause plus a medical condition have left my wife in the same situation you are. She has the same mindset. 

I have some anxiety that it isn't good for her - but she could act this happy in and out of bed for this long. She likes it - the way you like it. But she is like you, she initiates.






momtwo4 said:


> Sounds like your wife could be me. I've never had an orgasm either, and I have very little physical desire for sex. It drives me crazy at times because I feel like my husband and I have a problem with little solution. During the past two years or so I've gained an understanding of myself that I haven't had in the past.
> 
> When we were dating, I really thought very little about my sex drive. We didn't have intercourse until after we married, but we did pretty much everything else. I enjoyed it. But looking back, I think I enjoyed it because I liked being with him and it was a special way to connect. I don't think I've ever physically craved it in the same way that he does. Maybe this would change if I had an orgasm, I don't know.
> 
> ...


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

I have to say (to the ladies as a woman) I have a pretty HD, so I don't understand the LD.. but I have had physical issues that halted that.
Sometimes it's about starting to really have sex DAILY or every 2 days and making it a priority.. the more you do it the more you will crave it.

I noticed that even as a HD woman I had issues when I didn't have sex often where we would go 3 + weeks without. In my long term relationship that was unusual (usually 5 times a week MIN for 5 years!) As soon as I made it a priority I would start craving it again. But Im not sure if this would help you.. just a suggestion from someone who has been on both sides.
This doesn't mean forcing yourself.. this just means letting him seduce you and allowing him to initiate... with no excuses. Then if you are present in the moment things will happen and you may be surprised 


To the OP 
It sounds like your wife is uncomfortable with her own body, and I think that is something she needs to get over.. she needs to see someone who deals with this, and then hopefully get you involved.

If she isn't willing to work on this you have to decide if 50 more years of this is okay for you.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

To the OP:

I applaud you for wanting to keep your family together. Staying together for the sake of the children is not a popular option on TAM but in reality, many people do. I can only speak from personal experience from staying in a toxic marriage until my children were grown & they are both doing great. I am no martyr nor did I feel like I was sacrificing my happiness in doing so. I simply felt that my marital happiness was not a priority over raising my children in one home with both parents - no shuffling between two homes with a bitter Father because the Mother left.

I left the marriage (abusive) at age 48 & remarried & now enjoy a peaceful, happy life with my husband & two wonderful, independent, happy daughters.

So why am I telling you the above? Because you appear to really love your wife & want to keep your family together long term. That long term doesn't mean forever with children. Depending on your age & health, there can be a rich, full life after the children are raised & grown. Just something to think about.

Now on to your problem. Your wife may be asexual. Visit a website called AVEN for more information. If she is asexual, then she doesn't experience sexual attraction to anyone. You can explore this with her by discussing her sexual history. Although some may disagree, asexuals are normal people not freaks of nature. Some have sex, some have orgasms, the body parts work but the "desire" and biological "need" is not there & usually never has been. Asexuals are NOT LD. LD people experience some Desire, just low & infrequent.

I do not know if your wife is asexual but it is worth exploring. You certainly want to figure out if she does experience sexual attraction but not to you. Does she fantasize about other men? Does she ever watch porn & get turned on?

Now on to no orgasms. This is more common than you think. I hope in your case & for your family that her lack of orgasms is the reason that she doesn't want to have sex. I hope that once she achieves one, she will want more! 

I had a dozen sexual partners with no orgasms. I thought it was because of no/low sexual desire (I identify as asexual.) I decided to try a Hitachi Magic Wand as a last resort after reading the reviews  By God it worked! I had my first orgasm at age 48. I needed intense clitoral pressure that only a vibrator could provide. I not only bought it for me, but also for my current husband to enhance our sex life. At first he was upset that a vibe could do to me what he couldn't but he is a mature man who quickly got over it; didn't blame himself or me for who I am.

As to LD/HD relationships, I don't advocate for them. My first husband was super HD & it was ALWAYS an issue for both of us.

My current husband is super LD (we are much older that you both) so age plays into his LD in his case. Older & wiser, I would never enter into a relationship with an HD man but when I was younger I was not educated enough about sexual desire to know any better.

Lastly, as frustrating this is for you, I suspect that it is also very frustrating for your wife. It is time for some serious communication. I think your letter is a good start.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

She was like this before you married, so I'm assuming you were hoping she would change. It doesn't usually work that way. If she was like this before marriage and still like this now, my guess is, you either accept this is who you married, or you divorce so you can find someone whose wants or enjoys sex as you do.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

Why would an asexual seek a sexual relationship like marriage and bind a sexual man or woman to himself/herself in a sexual relationship? It sounds quite adverse to me, like a vegan ordering a steak and either throwing it away every day or eating it by force every day without enjoying it...

I got married because I like sex... So many relationships exist that are not sexual, friends, best friends, etc. that are available other than marriage... Dishes the vegan can enjoy...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Interlocutor said:


> Why would an asexual seek a sexual relationship like marriage and bind a sexual man or woman to himself/herself in a sexual relationship? It sounds quite adverse to me, like a vegan ordering a steak and either throwing it away every day or eating it by force every day without enjoying it...
> 
> I got married because I like sex... So many relationships exist that are not sexual, friends, best friends, etc. that are available other than marriage... Dishes the vegan can enjoy...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good point.

Aware asexuals don't seek out a sexual relationships for the most part.

Lots of us have sex but don't experience the desire for it. The parts work. There is a spectrum. Many of us like romance, like cuddling & kissing, like pleasing our partners, want children & families. You can't lump us all together as people that should stay single & celibate. There are also asexual men but less.

I have sex. I enjoy being with my husband, pleasing him, lots of BJ's & HJ's & he loves it. I educated myself on sexuality. I learned how to give him pleasure. Frankly because he is LD, he was not looking for an HD woman - they cause him too much anxiety LOL.

It's about compatibility. The OP & his wife are not sexually compatible. It is very common & I commend the OP for trying to find solutions.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

Emerald said:


> Good point.
> 
> Aware asexuals don't seek out a sexual relationships for the most part.
> 
> ...


Wait, so an asexual can enjoy sexual activities, just not desire them?

Also, someone may be asexual and somehow not be aware?

Hugging and kissing and cuddling does not necessarily require marriage...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Interlocutor said:


> Wait, so an asexual can enjoy sexual activities, just not desire them?
> n
> Also, someone may be asexual and somehow not be aware?
> 
> ...


Yup. I also enjoy (insert anything) but my loins don't burn for it.

Yup. Sexuality is not always figured out at an early age . I have some lesbian friends that married men at a young age but didn't really "desire" them sexually. Some stayed married over 20 years before they figured out their sexual orientation.

Agree with your last statement. The reality is that people marry _for all kinds of different reasons._ What is the ideal marriage for you may be different for another couple.

I am not a card-carrying flag-waving asexual advocating for my rights & marching in parades.

I am simply trying to help the OP get to the bottom of possible reasons that his wife does not want to have sex with him.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Interlocutor said:


> Why would an asexual seek a sexual relationship like marriage and bind a sexual man or woman to himself/herself in a sexual relationship? It sounds quite adverse to me, like a vegan ordering a steak and either throwing it away every day or eating it by force every day without enjoying it...
> 
> I got married because I like sex... So many relationships exist that are not sexual, friends, best friends, etc. that are available other than marriage... Dishes the vegan can enjoy...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure why an asexual man would be interested in marriage but it's not hard to imagine why an asexual woman would want one. Security and children. Of all the women who admit having no sex drive or having no desire for their husband, I haven't read a post yet from even one who has lost the desire to share in the proceeds of his labor.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I checked AVEN and about the only thing of interest was to classify asexually as a sexual orientation. That would be great for all involved.

What was not so great, in my view at least, a the effort made to convince everyone that relationships with "sexuals" (their term) can actually work, I mean, my eyes haven't rolled so much since I was born... Read some of the FAQ's yourself for your, ehem, enlightenment. Quote below:

""" Some asexuals feel intimacy with their partners by sharing common interests and activities or by working together toward common goals. Others experience intimacy in other deeply personal ways or by a combination of some, all or none of the above."""

(That was from the FAQ on relationships . Maybe I should quote it to Hannah the instrumentation lab co-op student and remind her of our common goals )

I guess coming out of the proverbial closet as an asexual would be far preferable than pretending to be LD...


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

I just re-read the first post again - I admit I think I got more caught up in the responses than the OP story - sorry about that.

OP - your wife is mid-thirties and never had an orgasm? I'm not sure how much I would want sex either if I never orgasmed. What is her background again, was she conservative, religious, anything strange in her upbringing to never explore her own body in this way? Do you think she is asexual? Did you ever send her that letter/have "the talk"?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Whether she has orgasms or not, she committed to a position which she isn't even trying to fulfill. Does she expect the OP to remain sexually faithful to only her? If so, she needs to get with the program. If she's got medical or psych problems, she should continuously seek professional help. "you just keep meeting my needs but I could give a rat's a$$ about your's" isn't a healthy relationship.


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## Wh00daman (Sep 5, 2013)

Hello again everyone (I'm the OP). This has been a great resource for me. Thank you! I've taken little bits from many different viewpoints on this site and I think I have a solid path forward that will begin tonight. I'm excited and terrified. 

I've come to the conclusion that the most likely scenario is that she really doesn't understand what sex means to a man. It is absolutely her fault for not allowing what should be obvious into her head. But I think there's probably some hard feelings in there (guilt, shame, embarrassment) that make it incredibly hard for her to face how much she is hurting me. She simply hasn't been courageous enough. 

For my part, we have talked a lot, and I've whined and complained, but I haven't really ever brought it to the level it deserves. That will change tonight with the letter. I'm going to do my best to explain to her what her actions have done to me and why we can't continue like this. I'll explain to her exactly where we need to get to as a couple, and some things I need from her (talk to a doctor or five, and go to counseling with me). Then I'll ask if she thinks we can get there. Does she really, truly love me? If not, please be honest with yourself and brave enough to tell me. 

If she says she loves me and wants to work on it, then I am going to do my best to offer us a restart/clean slate. 

A big part of that will be to acknowledge to her what finally occurred to me this weekend: I haven't been a great husband (though I've been a pretty decent one, and I sure as hell don't deserve what she's put me through). I'm nice, loyal, easy to be around and fun, and I take care of my share what it takes to run a house. HOWEVER, I almost never do things to make her feel special (for example, gifts are only on expected days & are pretty much thoughtless and the bare minimum). That's going to change in a big way. I'm going to work hard to take the mindset that we woo each other *every day*. That also means I have to work harder to be sexy. I'm a fit guy, but I wear clothes with holes around the house etc... I also have refused to really consider becoming more handy (doing projects only when she whines and I know I really have to say yes to keep the peace -- which sounds oddly like when she agrees to sex with me). The more I thought about it, there's probably nothing my wife would find sexier than her husband drilling some holes (no pun intended). I thought that being nice & considerate was being a great husband. I see now that a marriage takes a lot more work than that. 

I'm also going to be more assertive & take a more masculine role. It's funny, because I'm a business owner, a community leader & was a high-level athlete -- I'm not a submissive guy -- but I have absolutely let my wife run over me. That can't be sexy. I will never, ever beg or whine for sex again. I will court her, and make her feel special, and tell her all about the great things she's going to feel. But it will be in a confident, sexy way. 

I did marry a LD, and I'm willing to deal with our peak sex life being somewhat slow. But she needs to make MUCH more of an effort. I see what that effort can look like from the LD women on this site (thank you again). In my gut, I think she will buy in and put in the effort.

Of course, it's also possible that it's really all about control for her and/or she doesn't love me. In that case, I'm going to be making wonderful memories with some very pretty new ladies in the next year or so.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

Thats great OP! Looking forward to hearing how the conversation goes.

Another point - I have been talking about this thread with a few friends (both male & female) and we also agree that its harder for women to switch from mother/worker mode to lover mode. Somehow she needs to figure out what she needs to make this switch and obviously it would be cool if you can also help her do it. 

This came up when my friend, who is pretty HD, said she gets annoyed when she is cooking dinner and her boyfriend comes up and starts kissing her & grabbing at her. She likes that stuff, of course, but not when cooking dinner it annoys her & she can't switch from the mom/dinner making person to the sexy person. Men seem to just be able to switch over at the drop of a hat.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Given the diversity of cases posted on TAM I would go incrementally and monitor progress carefully and objectively. If the partner is not interested in nookie for a variety of reasons interest may not magically appear by producing an ab six pack and flowers. 

If she's receptive to the changes then proceed but keep an eye on the metrics side....


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

You're blaming yourself for your own victimization and planning on blowing more powder sugar up her backside? You still come home and you still support her. That alone is 1,000 times more than she deserves for making you twist for months on end. She doesn't eat and have a roof because she's been the perfect wife. You do those things because that's your responsibility. If she is unhappy with you, her legitimate avenues of recourse are to talk to you, take you to counseling, file for divorce. Continuing to take without giving isn't allowed of a partner but that is what she has been doing. If she steps up and shows some interest, it would be great to show your appreciation by stepping up your romance game, but we aren't starting from a level playing field. Before you start courting someone you ought to see some evidence that she deserves to be courted, otherwise, it's just rewarding crappy, abusive, behavior. Whenever she wants more powder sugar, she'll learn she just needs to turn off the sex supply. That's not the message you really want to convey. She can't expect to be treated like an adored partner in response to acting like an indifferent, sexless house guest.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I see why you chose your name, unbelievable. Because your post is just that. It seems there is some projecting going on there.

Whoodaman - I think you are on the right track. Having a frank conversation will be very awkward but she does need to know how much it matters for her to make an effort. 

Not sure if anyone mentioned the Love Languages... Most men's include touch as one of the top things they crave, but find out what your wife's is. She may not want the flowers/gifts and instead wants those acts of service (i.e. the 'drilling' haha). 

If she really loves you she'll make an effort. If she doesn't, you'll have your answer. But ignoring it hasn't worked so I'm glad you'll be bringing it up.

Best of luck.


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## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

The letter might work to your benefit, however, it wont last. She might pick up the slack for a couple of months and then it will go to the same bullsh*t all over again. 

She obviously has a drive because you said it worked a couple times a week at one time. I don't think it's anything medical because by now, she would have other symptoms. 

This has happened to me before just like MANY MANY men. In my current relationship, when my girl and I first got together, it was every day. I mean, literally, every day. I was in shape, I told her what I expected from her as a partner, I kept my head up, hung out with outside friends, ****y but respectable to her, took control.. you know the normal healthy stuff for an individual. Later in the relationship, her sex drive died. Not completely, but like once every two weeks. I know you'd kill for that, but it was depressing for me. At this stage, the tables turned. She became comfortable; she felt safe and sex was no longer a priority. At the time, I was gaining weight, I stopped hanging out with buddies, she'd pick on me about things - and I'd take it. I was becoming more nice and loving towards her. Agreed with her about everything and I didn't have expectations for her anymore, because I loved her now. I pleased her by doing things around the house, massages that led to nothing, etc.

But guess what. I had enough of it. By going to the internet, I found help. When she was interested in you, what was it that you were DOING? I found my way. I lost the weight and got cut again. I stopped giving her massages. I used the "my hands hurt, sorry." She wanted to use excuses, it was my turn. Started hanging out with my boys, became ****y again, took control of the situation. I started making the plans instead of asking her what she wanted to do. I started to do me. The minute girls start to notice you again, she feels threatened. 

Guess what. We have sex every night again. Most nights, I can't even keep her off of me. Two to three times and she still wants more. 

That's my man story. The letter could work or not, however, if it does.. enjoy it while she tries to please you so you don't leave. It will be more of a 'let me get him off once a week to shut him up' kind of act, nothing natural about it all. Once you start to take over the situation.. it could change. And hell, if it happens not to, you'll be in a situation where a lot of girls will treat you like you deserve to be treated.

You only live ONCE.


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## Wh00daman (Sep 5, 2013)

Hello everyone. I gave her the letter & it went as well as it could have. But it's far too early to tell what's going to happen. 



unbelievable said:


> You're blaming yourself for your own victimization and planning on blowing more powder sugar up her backside?


I'm not blaming myself. I recognized that there were things I could do to help the situation. I also think that admitting to my own failings helped her be more receptive to the changes she has to make. People tend to close up and get defensive if you are just coming down on them. 

I also don't see becoming a better husband as rewarding her bad behavior. I'm holding her accountable for what she's done and making sure she understands that we won't be married if it doesn't change.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Looks like you've got yourself a plan. Best of luck!


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You have your head on straight at this point.
Your plan is not a one and done conversation.
It's a way of life. Keep at it, and you will see improvement.
Hold yourself accountable to being a man that your wife should want to have sex with. Hold you wife accountable to being a wife that meets her husband's emotional needs.


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## Wh00daman (Sep 5, 2013)

Hicks said:


> Hold yourself accountable to being a man that your wife should want to have sex with. Hold you wife accountable to being a wife that meets her husband's emotional needs.


Well said.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Be prepared to act in kind (and more) if your partner has "checked out" emotionally.

Everything else is just fluff. You can lose weight, get six packs, etc, but at the end of the day it's fear of longer term consequences and quality if life that will dictate your partner's actions.

A relationship built on fear or anxiety vs willing emotional connections has a long way to go.


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