# Housework?



## Downtrodden_Hubby (Apr 10, 2013)

I get yelled at by my wife at least once a month for not doing an equal amount of the housework.

I work full time and wake up at 5am and get home at 6:30pm and my wife doesn't work and we have two kids. I come home and feed my 15 month old dinner, give her a bath, and then put her to bed. I then take over primary care for our 2 month old by feeding her, keeping a clean diaper on her, and holding her so she doesn't cry until we're ready for bed.

She doesn't do my laundry, she only does the dishes about once a month, and she doesn't take out the trash. She does take care of the kids but that mostly consists keeping them fed, diapers changed, and plopping them in front of the television to watch Disney & Pixar movies all day.

She says that it's not fair that I go to work and then after a certain period of time I'm off when she's always on. Wth does she want from me? If she's not doing the cleaning at home or just enough that she can get by in the day and brags to me about all the hours she spends online scouring the internet for awesome deals for the stuff she buys that we don't need, then how is she doing an equal amount of work when I work all day and come home and do as much as I can before having to go to sleep?

She won't listen to me and thinks I'm a selfish a$$hole that will never understand and that I must think I'm just the greatest man alive and I couldn't possibly do more dripping venom and sarcasm. What the hell am I supposed to do? She says I'm on the computer too much and play my games and ignore all the housework. I will give her the fact that I have maybe 1hr a week that I play games (Steam tracks your play time) but she gets plenty of time to herself on the weekends when I take over caring for the kids and I watch her watch her movies and television shows while I'm doing laundry, washing dishes, and cooking and I don't yell at her for spending hours and hours in front of the television.

I'm really depressed and I can't talk to her about it because apparently I don't do enough and if I express my unhappiness about the situation I'm just trying to make her feel bad and guilty so that I can have more time to myself...

*UPDATE*
Well I thought I'd come back here and post an update. As bad as some of the post here were there was a lot of helpful people and posts. My situation has become better if albeit a bit more confusing to me.

I decided that I wasn't going to rely on her to clean up the house as it was disaster and took it upon myself to get it clean. For about a week straight I miserably stayed up late and cleaned getting about 3-4hrs sleep a night and still getting up to take care of my toddler when she wakes up once or twice a night.

I started this on a Monday and by the time Friday rolled around I came home prepared to have a cleaning bonanza weekend and live off of coffee to finish off getting the house spruced. Much to my surprise when I woke up Saturday and began my cleaning like a madman my wife started helping! She got off the computer and set the tv to music and dug in.

I'll be the first to admit I know nothing about women and my cleaning habits aren't the best because when I was by myself I didn't really make a mess that didn't take longer than a few minutes to clean up.

We've gone this way for almost a full week now were I don't have to sacrifice sleep to keep the house up anymore and that she's really cleaning during the day instead of just piling it up and taking care of the kids while she watches tv or is on the computer.

I'm happy but confused. Is the change on her part because she saw how miserable I was trying to do it all myself?


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Wow... that sounds like hell!

That's not what marriage is mean't to be like.

Your wife sounds like brat... sorry. Do you think she is depressed...post partum type stuff? 

I've done the SAHM thing...i considered it my job to manage the house. I did almost all the housework but did like hubby to spend time with the kids when he was home..so i could go play in my gardens.

You are getting the raw end of this deal, you need to stand up for your rights ...all in a loving and positive way of course.

Tell me...hows the sex life?


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

OK, I'm a sahm and I do all of the housework. I just can't understand this kind of thinking. Yes when the kids were babies I was overwhelmed but I created a support group for myself. It is mentally exhausting taking care of infants and toddlers all day, you really are watching them and interacting with them almost every minute. She needs to find play groups, mommy and me classes, girlfriends, relatives, somebody to help with this during the day. I had the neighbor girl who was eleven watch the kids for an hour or two three times a week while I was in the house. You just can't have a spouse come home from work and take completely over. She is looking for help in the wrong place IMHO.


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## Downtrodden_Hubby (Apr 10, 2013)

@waiwera

Sex life is non-existent. We had our kids pretty close together so she wasn't really feeling sexy when she was pregnant and she had a c-section with our youngest daughter which was 2 months ago. 

She's also said something to the effect that "Why would we have sex you just to be physical and not wine and dine me? You don't make me feel sexy and I'm resentful about how we're living. (<-Dirty house)"


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## Downtrodden_Hubby (Apr 10, 2013)

Giro flee said:


> OK, I'm a sahm and I do all of the housework. I just can't understand this kind of thinking. Yes when the kids were babies I was overwhelmed but I created a support group for myself. It is mentally exhausting taking care of infants and toddlers all day, you really are watching them and interacting with them almost every minute. She needs to find play groups, mommy and me classes, girlfriends, relatives, somebody to help with this during the day. I had the neighbor girl who was eleven watch the kids for an hour or two three times a week while I was in the house. You just can't have a spouse come home from work and take completely over. She is looking for help in the wrong place IMHO.


Our 15month old daughter goes to nursery 3 days out of the week for 6hrs, 6hrs, and 3hrs. We moved from Arizona to New Zealand so don't have any relatives and she has a coffee group/play group thing going on every Thursday.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

The money she's using to buy stuff for the kids should be used to hire a cleaning lady. Stop doing any domestic work during the week. During the week your job is to make money and her job is to mainain the household. The weekends are a mixed bag, I'd take a set amount of time and first tackle the man-type things that need to be done and if you finish then maybe do your laundry, then the kids. Stop being a doormat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Maybe she hates being a SAHM? Could she go back to work instead?

I am not cut out for the SAHM thing but I did it for about a year after I got laid off from my job. I remember feeling similar to your wife - not in the housework perse but the always "on" thing. I found it very hard and depressing to kind of feel like I had no purpose in life than to wipe butts and keep the house clean. When I stayed home my kids were very little, around the ages your kids are now, and I really feel like a lot of the work of taking care of babies that age is pretty thankless and mind numbing at times. I found it easy to get depressed and feel like my husband had such a better life because he got to get out of the house consistently and had structure to his day, and had a part of his day where he got to choose when to take a break, when to use the bathroom, etc.

It may get better as your kids get older.

But, she shouldn't be allowed to treat you that way and if depression is at the root of her problems you've gotta tell her that she has to get her shiz together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

I agree with Kag. If she feels housework is without value she won't want to do it. My sister tried to stay home with her kids, she felt like a second class citizen, like people didn't respect her. Your wife needs to figure out what she wants, you can't take a job and only do the part you want to. Staying at home means taking care of your family and their environment. If you have the money hire a cleaning lady. Try hard not to get into the who has it harder argument, having small kids is a lot of work for everyone.Fortunately they don't stay babies forever.


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## Downtrodden_Hubby (Apr 10, 2013)

@BrockLanders
It's easy to say stop being a doormat but I love my wife and even if she's wrong I can see she's unhappy. Standing up for myself will just start WWIII because she thinks I'm a lazy off and I can't seem to convince her otherwise and she'll end up trying to get her parents to fly her back to the USA.

@kag123
That sounds exactly like her but from comments I've heard her say casually she thinks she'd be a bad mother if she wasn't a SAHM until the kids are at least in school. She says she wants to start working part-time when they're school age.

I just can't seem to communicate with her without her blowing up and telling me how horrible I am because we live in filth and I don't care because if I cared I'd do more about it. Well I can't do more about it I have to sleep don't I? Yes I get to browse the web here and there at work because I'm an IT guy but I have to work most of the day and commute an hour home each way every day.

I'd love to not have to work and stay at home and help out as much as I'm able but I'm really crap at cleaning and I don't make that much of a mess myself and try to clean up the mess I do make. Once when she took the kids and went home to the USA to visit for a month without me the house pretty much stayed as it was and I was able to pick up a bit but not clean it up entirely. I'm really low maintenance and can handle myself but I just don't have enough time in the day to handle the housework for all four of us and go be out for the count from 5am - 6:30pm Mon - Fri because of work.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Your wife had a c-section 2 months ago? THat can really whipe a person out. She does need extra help while she's healing from the surgery.

Your wife, when not recovering from a c-section, should be able to take care of the children and most house work while you are at work.

When you are home the two of your can then split any remaining housework 50/50. But this should be minimal. The child care should be split 50/50 when you are home as well.

How much time a week do the two of you spend doing things together, just the two of you. From her comment it sounds like you two are not spending the necessary time together to maintain a healthy marriage. A couple needs to spend at least 15 hours a week together, just the two of you, to maintain the love and passion in your relationship.

If your wife is talking to you in the way you say she is, she's being very disrespectful. It sounds like the two of you might benefit from MC... soon.


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## Downtrodden_Hubby (Apr 10, 2013)

Giro flee said:


> I agree with Kag. If she feels housework is without value she won't want to do it. My sister tried to stay home with her kids, she felt like a second class citizen, like people didn't respect her. Your wife needs to figure out what she wants, you can't take a job and only do the part you want to. Staying at home means taking care of your family and their environment. If you have the money hire a cleaning lady. Try hard not to get into the who has it harder argument, having small kids is a lot of work for everyone.Fortunately they don't stay babies forever.


I don't play the who has it harder game with her. I already know she feels like I think I do more because I work. I know I don't have it easier but I do know that she gets time to do whatever she wants on the weekend when I'm there and I never get that...

I let her sleep in till 10 or 11am every Sat & Sun and get the kids up, fed, and playing/interacting with me. I'd die if I had time to do whatever I want without fear of her throwing in my face that I had me time for a couple hours sometime.

It's hard because I really love her and enjoy seeing her happy but it seems like nothing I do is ever good enough unless I get fed up with it and do all the house work and go to work everyday and sleep only a couple hours a night.

@EleGirl
She's always been this way even when we only had our one daughter. She's not asking me to step it up temporarily and she says she feels back to normal from the c-section. We don't have the option to spend time together with just the two of us with a 15month old and a 2month old. We don't have anyone that can babysit and we don't really feel comfortable someone looking after our 2month old anyway since she's so young we want to wait until she's at least 6months old before leaving her with a nursery or babysitter. I would feel blessed if there was 15 hours in my week that I could give to us time but it's just not there.


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## IPoH (Jul 31, 2012)

You both need to read "His Needs/Her Needs". It sounds like neither of you are having your needs met and its leading to a lot of frustration for you. There's a great section in it that discusses the division of domestic responsablity. It's a pretty quick read and you can pick up a copy for around ten (US) dollars.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> Standing up for myself will just start WWIII because she thinks I'm a lazy off and I can't seem to convince her otherwise and she'll end up trying to get her parents to fly her back to the USA.


WWIII is an extreme exaggeration, and is a symptom of someone who fears standing up for themselves rather than reflecting reality.

Having her parents fly her back to the USA is emotional blackmail, if she is actually threatening that, and constitutes abuse. 

You can't argue or "convince" an abusive person. You give them choices: respect me or else. If you are not prepared to follow through with consequences then you have to just sit down, shut up, and do as you are told. 

I'll admit to allowing this kind of abuse at one time in my life. It's so much nicer to have a wife that respects me now. It's real easy to see when she needs a break from the kids or housework.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Ok... the 2 month old threw me... both a joyous and incredibly stressful time... add to that hormones and lack of sleep.

But you say it was happening before this last baby.. 

If she is rude/sarcastic to you...pull her up on it. Not much to ask for is it? To be polite/civil to each other.

As far as the physical... I think most marriages go down hill once the sex/affection stops. The importance of feeling a bond or connection to your spouse is vital for a healthy sex life IMO. Bonding actions need to occur every day...

Below is a link, many of the actions can be subtle and non-sexual but will still be bonding. A good connection will help no end while you try to improve your marriage... both in and out of bed.

Marnia Robinson: Sure Ways To Stay In Love

Have you ever asked her if she feels depressed? ( the is a online test she can do at Depression - home ) At the moment she may feel sad and overwhelmed... that shes not coping... and lashing out at you.

Where in NZ are you? One of the bigger centers? I feel for you both being so far from home...it must be making this situation far more difficult for both of you.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I think your wife needs a job just to get out of the house .


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

I know you said she SAYS she feels normal now, but I really doubt she IS back to normal. She may FEEL ok most of the time, but her body hasn't completely healed. Add to that the fact that she is, basically, caring for two babies all day long...it takes a toll.And your kids are only 13 months apart! Mine (two youngest) were were 21 months apart and it was very stressful...even with my husband, oldest son, and MIL there. Why not work up a schedule? Like, once a week, do the laundry (except very dirty items, such as diaper leaks)... do the same for jobs such as sweeping, mopping, vacuuming, etc. Certain things, such as dishes, need to be done daily, of course...as well as picking up the babies' toys. And, if dishes end up being done every other day, it's not the end of the world. 

I would guess that the older child has a set bedtime? Well, when your younger child falls asleep, there is at least an hour or two there which you could take advantange of. And that's everyday...Right there is at least 7 hours, possibly 14 a week. During the day, on weekends, babies have naptime, right? There's another hour or two. The only exception to this scenario is if one is cranky/not feeling well. And, of course, you need to make allowances for these situations. 

Anyway, my point is that she may be saying she feels normal because she doesn't want you to know how she's really feeling. As for how she was with the first baby... I was pretty much the same, I think. It was tough for me transitioning... even tougher recovering from c-sections...each time. I dodn't want my husband, or anyone else for that matter, to know how much pain I was really in. I stopped taking the pain meds prescribed and switched to Tylenol so I was coherent enough to care for the baby... but that's ALL I was really capable of doing. And, I admit, after a certain point, some of the things just became habit. It took my husband putting his foot down to change my thinking regarding housework and such... and you will need to do the same. Set up a daily schedule for housework. Set it up so things like laundry and dishes can be done together, if need be. Unless you have a dishwasher? If that's the case, then no reason she can't load and unload it everyday. Just tell her that you recognize that caring for two babies is exhausting, but you can't do all the housework. Then show her the plan to spread the chores out, and go from there. This is what worked for my husband and me, once he finally spoke up.

I wish you luck!


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## Downtrodden_Hubby (Apr 10, 2013)

@IPoH
Sorry a self-help book isn't really going to help. I've tried that and she just read it and sees that it proves her right regardless of what it says. 

@Wiserforit
She's the kind of person that if given an ultimatum she'll do the worst thing she can do to hurt you and ignore it. She has a bit of a control issue and wouldn't respond to being told what to do. I'd rather not have her run off with my children overseas just to spite me because I demand respect or else.

@waiwera
She has struggled with depression in the past. We can't really afford professional counselling and the free stuff in NZ isn't for us foreigners :-/ Not that we'd able to go because I wouldn't want me kids there and my youngest is too young for babysitting.

@tacoma
She feels she has to be a SAHM until the kids are school age or she's a bad mother.

I appreciate all the replies. I don't know what I was hoping for or expecting but I guess it would be nice if someone has been in my situation and shared how they dealt with it.

I don't think she's seeing my contribution to the household and holding value over it. Do you think it would help if I put up like a chore chart and signed off on the stuff I do help out with or do you think she'd find that patronizing/insulting?

*Edit*

@Maricha75
That's what I'd like to do but I'm not sure she'll respond well to it. I don't think she wouldn't tell me how bad she feels, she's very...talkative ;-)

There is about an hour - two hours after our eldest goes to sleep but my youngest 2 month old daughter is very... sensitive and requires one of us to make her happy until she falls asleep. That usually ends up being me and my wife takes the time to relax and enjoy the quiet as she tells me.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

At 8 weeks after a c-section, your wife would only now be able to start to do moderate exercise. Housework is more than moderate exercise if she is also caring for two babies. ... well a baby and a toddler. Toddlers are a handful to put it mildly.

You bring up depression. She could very well have depression after the first baby and now this second one. What was she like with housework before the first baby?

I agree with others that your wife might need to get a job. She might not be cut out for being a SAHM. If she gets a job, then her money can go towards child care and house keeping. This way she feels better, your house is clean and the two of you can spend good time with your children and then with just each other.

I also agree that she does not see your contribution of working for about 11 hours a day (commuting included).

You have to talk to your wife. If she blows up, tell her that you will not put up with her treating you like that and especially doing it in front of the children.

About spending time together, just the two of you.

Yes your baby is too young for a baby sitter who is left alone with her. But there are things you can do.

Hire someone who comes to your home to watch your children while you and your wife have a 'date' in the home. You two can go off to a room by yourself. Fix snacks, plan something to do that the two of you really enjoy. It can be an hour.. or 4 hours. 

I used to do this. I hired a high school girl. She ended up doing this sort of child care for us until she graduated from college. She even lived in our home for a while in college and became our live-in nanny for a while.

You say that your wife goes to some kind of play group with other mom's? Often times mom's in these groups will swap free baby sitting for each other.

If you put effort into it, you two can find time to spend together. As the children get older, it will be easier.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

This isn't about housework. That's the excuse. It's about respect and she has none for you. If you did 100% of the child rearing and you kept an immaculate home and worked a job bringing in six figures, she'd still be a battle axe to you because she doesn't respect you. It is against your nature to stand up to her but she will never respect anyone who doesn't. You say she has "a bit of control isssues". That's painting it very mildly. She's yelling at and dog cussing her husband, calling him lazy, etc, etc, etc.  
I think it's a nice idea to help her as you are able around the house but not in response to her orders or verbal abuse. DO NOT REWARD THAT CRAP with your obedience. I don't believe any woman can feel good about herself or her marriage or her husband while she's getting away with verbally abusing him and ordering him around like hired help.
When she starts getting mouthy, tell her in a calm voice that you understand she's working hard and she's frazzled but you are her partner, not her subordinate and not her enemy. You aren't deaf and you won't be disrespected. There will be no yelling, and no hissy-fit throwing. 
If you can do so without waking the house, get up a little early and knock out a household chore before going to work. Don't make a production of it, don't even mention it to her. Just do it. 
Don't get caught up in this "I do....but you don't do....." foolishness. This is an emotional argument and logic has no place in it. She feels overwhelmed, resentful, and probably a little insecure because her lifeline is a guy who cowers under to a woman. She's thousands of miles from home. She has no job, small babies, and she has to depend on a guy she really can't trust as her sole source of security because he cowers under to a woman who's dangling from her last thread. If she feels inadequate (and she does)and you cower under to her, that makes you even more inadequate in her eyes. Who's her rock? For her sake and your's, you have to stand up for yourself. Don't argue, don't raise your voice, just tell her how the land lays and stop following orders. If she'd like to request something reasonable, give all you can. Do not reward nastiness, hostility, and disrespect. 
Do things that have to be done but make sure she sees a man deciding on his own to do so and not a henpecked man cowering under to his wife. Once she starts treating you like a human being again, make a point to bring her the occasional gift or take her out. Don't do it immediately after she's been nasty to you.


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## Downtrodden_Hubby (Apr 10, 2013)

@unbelievable

While you have some good points, I hardly cower under her. What I do know is that she's miserable because she has to take care of the kids all day and the house is dirty because well we have two kids she had a c-section two months ago and I work in a job that puts me out of the house for 13hrs a day and she lashes out at me. 

I don't know how beneficial it would be starting the kind of confrontation you're suggesting. I ultimately just want her to be happy and for us to see eye to eye on the housework. What you're suggesting sounds more like standing down a dog by staring in the eye and commanding respect. I think it's a bit more than that.


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## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

Why don't you stop accepting poor treatment? 

My wife did this to me once complained I never helped clean, I was immaculate for a month, and she just switched the complaining.

If she needs help, help her but fix the lack or respect.


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## Downtrodden_Hubby (Apr 10, 2013)

carolinadreams said:


> Why don't you stop accepting poor treatment?
> 
> My wife did this to me once complained I never helped clean, I was immaculate for a month, and she just switched the complaining.
> 
> If she needs help, help her but fix the lack or respect.


Sometimes I feel like her head would explode if she didn't have something to complain about...


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> @IPoH
> 
> She's the kind of person that if given an ultimatum she'll do the worst thing she can do to hurt you and ignore it. She has a bit of a control issue and wouldn't respond to being told what to do. I'd rather not have her run off with my children overseas just to spite me because I demand respect or else.


So get used to it. She's not the problem. You are. 

It goes beyond cowering. You manufacture the excuse yourself before you even confront her. She doesn't even need to make the threat. You do it for her.


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## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

IF she can ignore it, it's not an ultimatum.


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## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

Marriage doesn't need to be a fricking game though. It can be straight forward. Your partner simply has to know that you are unwilling to be dumping ground for any trivial bs that flits through their head, and you have to behave like a man worthy of respect.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

She is using television as escapism and denial. She gets no extra time with you, the house is a disaster, the kids are a handful, and she is probably a little post partum.

Dude you're an IT guy. I married an IT guy. It's almost universal that when you guys tune into a game you tune out to life. whether it be for an hour or ten hours. Sure you deserve some down time but she is pleading with you to understand her and help her. You may think you are doing that but you are not. Do you leave messes that she has to clean around? My husband is famous for leaving piles of stuff (read crap) all over my house that make it difficult nigh impossible to get the job done right. And if I can't do it just right I lose the will to do it at all sometimes. I make houserules. He breaks them. I try to get organized, he doesn't fall in line with the attempt. He promises that once something gets clean it will stay clean and yet it always winds up trashed. Does any of this sound familiar to you? Do you promise to do jobs that you really don't have the time or energy to commit to? Dude, changing a baby's nappy and getting them to bed on time is awesome but she needs you in a big way. Should she be being disrespectful? No. On the other hand if you are constantly justifying your behaviour and absolving yourself in any role you might play in your situation is it a wonder she has resorted to such tactics? Dude, this is where the dirty work begins. Help your wife.

Here's a book that has been tremendously helpful for me:

The House the Cleans Itself

and also Fly Lady helps you and your family develop habits that take the extra "work" out of cleaning the house. You won't feel like it's work to develop habits that make keeping a neat house easier for you and your wife (and carve out extra time for yourselves btw)


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## Downtrodden_Hubby (Apr 10, 2013)

Fledgling said:


> She is using television as escapism and denial. She gets no extra time with you, the house is a disaster, the kids are a handful, and she is probably a little post partum.
> 
> Dude you're an IT guy. I married an IT guy. It's almost universal that when you guys tune into a game you tune out to life. whether it be for an hour or ten hours. Sure you deserve some down time but she is pleading with you to understand her and help her. You may think you are doing that but you are not. Do you leave messes that she has to clean around? My husband is famous for leaving piles of stuff (read crap) all over my house that make it difficult nigh impossible to get the job done right. And if I can't do it just right I lose the will to do it at all sometimes. I make houserules. He breaks them. I try to get organized, he doesn't fall in line with the attempt. He promises that once something gets clean it will stay clean and yet it always winds up trashed. Does any of this sound familiar to you? Do you promise to do jobs that you really don't have the time or energy to commit to? Dude, changing a baby's nappy and getting them to bed on time is awesome but she needs you in a big way. Should she be being disrespectful? No. On the other hand if you are constantly justifying your behaviour and absolving yourself in any role you might play in your situation is it a wonder she has resorted to such tactics? Dude, this is where the dirty work begins. Help your wife.


That does ring true...so how do you deal with it? Is there something specifically I can do? If you weren't a random internet stranger I'd accuse you of stalking me...


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> @waiwera
> 
> Sex life is non-existent. We had our kids pretty close together so she wasn't really feeling sexy when she was pregnant and she had a c-section with our youngest daughter which was 2 months ago.
> 
> She's also said something to the effect that "Why would we have sex you just to be physical and not wine and dine me? You don't make me feel sexy and I'm resentful about how we're living. (<-Dirty house)"


Take it from me, this is going to get much worse. I am glad you are being proactive about finding solutions. Your wife and mine could be sisters. I tried fixing it myself because I didn't know who to turn to. I ended up separating (20 yr marriage) and while that was enough of a wake-up call to make positive changes, I'm not sure it is enough anymore. She also cheated on me during the separation so ... there is that too. Just found that little "nugget" a few weeks ago almost a year after reconciling (secret email, facebook and dating site accounts that I was able to break into)


EDIT: I am also an IT guy. However, I am the organized, clean person in the house. Most IT guys I know are fairly organized people ... almost to a fault; they either are ... or they are to the other extreme. My wife is tsunami, leaving a trail of destruction everywhere she goes.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> That does ring true...so how do you deal with it? Is there something specifically I can do? If you weren't a random internet stranger I'd accuse you of stalking me...


 lol Umm, well, if you were _my _hubby I would give you a laundry list of things that you "should be doing" but you already get that don't you  Step one I would say is don't sabatage her efforts. If she has the entryway tidy and clear when you get home don't just drop your stuff in the hall when you get home, no matter how tired you are. Put your dirty dishes directly into the dishwasher. _Little things like that add up._ The babies can't clean up after themselves but you can. My husband loves to have his computer parts strewn on my dining room table. I can't tell you how that makes my blood boil to have no where to have dinner but the couch (and the TV btw would have to be running) One thing I would love is if my husband helped keep one room spotless (preferably the bedroom) Even if the rest of the house goes to complete garbage you need to have one place that doesn't mentally drain you both and the bedroom keeps you intimate. Can things be changed in the house that would require less maintenance? More storage (for the"deals" or toys? lol) I have some friends who did the unthinkable and downsized because the burden of a large house and yard upkeep was too overwhelming for the wife. Plus it saved them a bundle financially. Point is there is so much you can do that really doesn't require anymore "work" tacked onto a long day. Just a change in habits!  Good Luck!


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> EDIT: I am also an IT guy. However, I am the organized, clean person in the house. Most IT guys I know are fairly organized people ... almost to a fault; they either are ... or they are to the other extreme. My wife is tsunami, leaving a trail of destruction everywhere she goes.


I'd like to sign my husband up to work in your IT department. There always needs to be a Moss and a Roy to make an IT department function well.  (Sorry for the geek reference.)


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> That does ring true...so how do you deal with it? Is there something specifically I can do? If you weren't a random internet stranger I'd accuse you of stalking me...


How does this ring true? 

It is completely inconsistent with your prior posts. 

What is the real story? Do you in fact ignore her rules and leave your messes, or does she not lift a finger and harass you to do the work she should have when you come home?


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Okay, so the problem is you mess up the house and don't help the wife enough. 

So she should yell at you to do more of the housework. Glad we got that resolved.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

I think that there is a big misconception as to what a SAHM mom's role actually is. Yes a sahm is responsible for keeping the house clean and the invariable messes that come with the territory. She is _not_ responsible for lack of personal accountability. How hard is it to put a sock in the hamper or take three extra steps to the garbage can to scrape off your plate after dinner? Or to take off your shoes when you come in the house so you don't track mud all over the floor so she only has to mop twice a week instead of every single day? Almost invariably the woman who tells her man he isn't doing enough around the house is asking him to take some personal responsibility for himself.



It's worth noting that SAHM of the past weren't relegated to the do it all role the now have today. Take care of the babies, take care of the house, the yard, the trash, the bills, the doctors appts, the car appts, homework, meals, laundry etc etc. There were still things that men were expected to do after work. Trash, mowing, shoveling, repairs etc AND they still worked all week. I know plenty of SAHM who suffer from burn out because they try to do it all and it all get HALF done because she doesn't have time to focus on everything all the way through.

In the situations where the SAHM really is falling down on the job, when the bare minimum isn't being met, what can be changed about the _house _that makes things easier for her. It's so easy for a SAHM to get discouraged when she sees a mess and it overwhelms her to the point where she doesn't even know where to begin. Encourage her to get out of the house (no one in the house no one to cause messes). Laundry piling up? How much of that is clothes that don't fit or are otherwise unwearable? Not enough closet space so clothes wind up in the laundry instead? Do you really need twenty plates and glasses so that the easier thing to do is get a clean dish from the cupboard rather than clean the ones in the sink. Does she have the right tools to get the job done? Is she willing to mow the lawn if she has a lawn tractor instead of a push mower? 

It angers me that many people, including other SAHM, critisize SAHMs, without being fully aware of the other SAHM situations. Was she ever taught properly how to clean in her own family for instance? What is the financial situation like? Is she depressed? Is the husband a slob? Is her house too small/too big? Is she sleep deprived?

Why aren't any of these options explored before it gets to the point of SAHM being accused of falling down on the job or lazy?!


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> I just can't seem to communicate with her without her blowing up and telling me how horrible I am because we live in filth and I don't care because if I cared I'd do more about it.



I hate to throw out an option that is so obvious, but I'm kind of astounded how no one else in this thread (as far as I can see) has suggested marriage counseling. If you can't even communicate with her about this issue without her blowing up, then that's an absolute textbook situation where you need it. You really need a third party to help mediate a compromise that will satisfy both sides, as well as to help find out what the other underlying issues are. My guess is that she hates being a SAHM a lot more than she lets on. 

Going off on a tangent: Someone else suggested hiring a maid, and I couldn't second that more. That might even be more cost effective than MC. It would certainly give you more time together. In this modern age, it seems fewer and fewer people want to hire others to do their housework, yardwork, etc. Everyone wants to to EVERYTHING themselves nowadays. But once upon a time nearly every home had a maid/housekeeper/cleaning lady, and these weren't wealthy homes either. But families should do hire more help - it would also get people working again and help the economy too.


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## delirium (Apr 23, 2012)

Being a stay at home mom is not easy. I often get burned out on the cleaning and it's hard to make myself do it consistently. Doing the SAME thing every day (often several times a day) can be incredibly disheartening. I don't feel accomplished when I finish the dishes each night. I know that in the next 24 hours the same amount of dishes will build up and guess who gets to do them. Every day. I spend all day picking up after my three year old and husband and doing the laundry, cleaning the bathroom, sweeping the floors, putting away laundry, and no matter what I do the job is never done. If I ever get the house perfect, it lasts about five minutes. It's a thankless job on top of trying to raise kids and all that entails. Especially with a toddler and baby! Your wife must be exhausted. It really isn't enthralling to spend all day every day taking care of young kids and cleaning up after everyone. 

What helps is my husband being understanding about this. A little appreciation goes a long way. He knows it isn't easy and helps when he can. He also gives me breaks when he can see I'm losing my mind and that makes all the difference. 

Do you guys give each other breaks? Sitting around watching tv with the kids doesn't really count as a break. It's hard to do much other than that with a newborn. She's probably just trying to maintain her sanity.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

As I understand it, your work day is about 12 hours--you leave the house at 6:30 AM and arrive home at 6:30 PM (travel time counts as part of your work day, anyone that has had to commute for an hour or more each way knows it's no fun).

Do you think she is working M-F for 12 hours a day (with an hour for lunch)? Do you think she could get the laundry, cooking, dishes, etc... done each day if she was working a solid 11 hours a day? I assume you have the full set of appliances: dishwasher, gas stove/oven, washer & dryer; I also assume you do most of the guy chores (cut the grass, house & car maintenance, etc...)

Housework is work; being a SAHM is work--a lot of work. But, it's not an impossible task. And, it's not unreasonable to ask your wife dedicate at least 8 hours each day to work (after all--you do that and then some).

You need to take a hard look at everything she should be doing in her role as homemaker and ask yourself if this could get done if she was working 8 hours throughout the day. Then ask yourself why she isn't getting it done. Is she not managing her time well, not setting her priorities correctly, or just plain sluffing off?

Coming home and taking on her responsibilities is not the answer, imho it will just make matters worse, because it feeds into the delusion that somehow she has a super-herculean task: housework. It's not. It may not be fun, it may even be miserable, but it isn't unreasonable.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Theseus said:


> I hate to throw out an option that is so obvious, but I'm kind of astounded how no one else in this thread (as far as I can see) has suggested marriage counseling. If you can't even communicate with her about this issue without her blowing up, then that's an absolute textbook situation where you need it. You really need a third party to help mediate a compromise that will satisfy both sides, as well as to help find out what the other underlying issues are.


I thought I remember him saying he could not afford it.

Sort of like saying you can't afford the hospital while you are in the middle of a heart attack.

Can't afford not to.


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## delirium (Apr 23, 2012)

*Re: Re: Housework?*



Blue Firefly said:


> As I understand it, your work day is about 12 hours--you leave the house at 6:30 AM and arrive home at 6:30 PM (travel time counts as part of your work day, anyone that has had to commute for an hour or more each way knows it's no fun).
> 
> Do you think she is working M-F for 12 hours a day (with an hour for lunch)? Do you think she could get the laundry, cooking, dishes, etc... done each day if she was working a solid 11 hours a day? I assume you have the full set of appliances: dishwasher, gas stove/oven, washer & dryer; I also assume you do most of the guy chores (cut the grass, house & car maintenance, etc...)
> 
> ...


I wake up at the same time as my husband and I'm on my feet 90% of the time I'm awake. He gets home and I'm still taking care of things, right up until bedtime. 

I know a lot of people think it's easier to be the at home parent. It would be hard to understand unless you've actually experienced being the stay at home parent (long term).


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> @unbelievable
> 
> While you have some good points, I hardly cower under her. What I do know is that she's miserable because she has to take care of the kids all day and the house is dirty because well we have two kids she had a c-section two months ago and I work in a job that puts me out of the house for 13hrs a day and *she lashes out at me.*


Acutally, @unbelievable is 100% correct. The fact that you don't see it says more about your marital problems than anything else you have posted here.

Women need security beyond anything else. A woman with two infants and who has just had major surgery needs even more. She needs to know that if the world caves in, you will be able to stand up in the storm and help her (and her children) ride it out.

But, you can't even stand up to her "lashing out at you", much less the storms of life. You are feeding her insecurity: "My God, he can't even handle me yelling at him; what will he do if we ever have a serious problem?"

Eventually your marriage will morph into a parent/child relationship (with you as the child). You can bank on it. If she doesn't feel you are dependable in a crisis on your own, then she will seek to make you dependable in a crisis by controlling you. She has to know that if the SHTF you will be up to the challenge. That can either be (1) because you are a confident guy that can handle problems, or (2) because she is pulling your strings telling you what to do.

Every woman would prefer #1. But, if she doesn't believe you are that guy, she will resort to #2.

It looks like your wife is already heading down the road to #2.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

delirium said:


> I wake up at the same time as my husband and I'm on my feet 90% of the time I'm awake. He gets home and I'm still taking care of things, right up until bedtime.
> 
> I know a lot of people think it's easier to be the at home parent. It would be hard to understand unless you've actually experienced being the stay at home parent (long term).


I didn't say it was easier. I said he should appraise whether she is using her time wisely or not.

The impression I got was that he was doing all the laundry and was considering taking on even more housework. Meanwhile she didn't seem to be able to even get things done like occasionally sweeping the floor, even though she did seem to have time for other things.


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## delirium (Apr 23, 2012)

*Re: Re: Housework?*



Blue Firefly said:


> I didn't say it was easier. I said he should appraise whether she is using her time wisely or not.
> 
> The impression I got was that he was doing all the laundry and was considering taking on even more housework. Meanwhile she didn't seem to be able to even get things done like occasionally sweeping the floor, even though she did seem to have time for other things.


She had a C section two months ago, and has a toddler and newborn. She's not getting any sleep yet, I would imagine. It took me at least three months to recover from a normal labor. Doesn't it take that long for hormones to back to normal after a birth anyway? 

She's probably too exhausted to use her time wisely, but feels guilty because she can't do everything she needs to in order to take care of the kids. 

How were things before the baby was born?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Not everyone is cut out to be a SAHM. It's a tough job and if you aren't really organized (and even if you are) it can overwhelm you. Especially when you have very young children (older children are capable of helping).


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

delirium said:


> How were things before the baby was born?


That's the point. He said she was like this BEFORE the baby was born. So, it's unlikely the the baby and c-section are the cause of a pre-existing problem.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

No but having children will almost always magnify faults in any marriage because then you have the added scrutiny of "being a good role model" for the children. And if she's post partum, then what?

A long commute can be grueling everyday, but many mothers I know would kill to have three hours in the car -- alone. To not listen to Barney or Kid's Bop. And if we are being honest about work let's fess up that alot of people take their smoke/coffee breaks, a half an hour/hour lunch, the stop to shoot the breeze with a coworker or boss, pee breaks that linger while they are fixing their hair or reapplying their make-up, checking their private emails, texting on their phones, day dreaming, or even nodding off at their desk. So this thought that the working spouse is diligently plucking away all day, every day is rather laughable. If the working spouses were so on point why do companies spend billions of dollars every year brainstorming ways to not only keep their employees productive but try to make them _more _productive or to do more with less. And all this without a screaming baby or demanding toddler in sight.

I think in the OPs case that his marriage isn't suffering due to one problem. I'm sure the house is a disaster due to a combination of things that both of them have to agree to do together.


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

I haven't read all the responses, but *disconnect the internet*. 

Perhaps then she'll occupy her time by cleaning the house and not shopping. 

Dishes ONCE a month? :scratchhead: EEEEEWWWWWWWW!!!


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## Downtrodden_Hubby (Apr 10, 2013)

delirium said:


> She had a C section two months ago, and has a toddler and newborn. She's not getting any sleep yet, I would imagine. It took me at least three months to recover from a normal labor. Doesn't it take that long for hormones to back to normal after a birth anyway?
> 
> She's probably too exhausted to use her time wisely, but feels guilty because she can't do everything she needs to in order to take care of the kids.
> 
> How were things before the baby was born?


Things were still like this before the baby. She thinks she's so clean and tidy and I'm the one that's the problem...she does clean the bathroom regularly but the rest of the house gets attention about once a month.

When I was by myself in the house for a month, when I sent her to go home and visit her parents back in the US (we're in New Zealand), the house got slightly cleaner not dirtier. I can look after myself because I don't do much. But it's the whole family worth of people I can't look after when I'm pretty much screwed for time Mon - Fri. On Sat & Sun I pretty much take care of all the kids needs and she sits in front of the tv with a laptop on her lap. 

I want her to have time to enjoy herself but I suspect that when my 15 month old daughter is at nursery Tue, Wed, & Thur for 6hrs, 6hrs, and 3hrs she is sitting on the couch with a laptop on her lap enjoying herself...I would die for that kind of time to do whatever I wanted.

Any time I try address the issue and that she needs to clean more she just gets angry and doesn't respond or responds in a non-productive way...

It might get better after she starts recovering completely. I just don't know. We had our kids so close together she's pretty much been pregnant for 2 years. I know having kids can mature people and change them. I know I'm nowhere near the same person I was 2 years ago.

Before it was I'm not doing enough and she's pregnant so she can't do it. Well there isn't enough time in the day for me to do more. The only time I get to myself is if I don't sleep... Now we're holding off on having anymore kids for at least a few years if we even have more. 


And yes am I am an IT guy and yes I have bad habits but not anything I thought major. I sometimes leave my shoes by the desk instead of where shoes are supposed to go. I sometimes leave my shirt and tie on the back of a dining room chair. 

We don't have a dishwasher and we rent so we can't make the modifications needed to the 1960s kitchen to install one as we won't be in this house the same time next year.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Having children *can *mature people. But no guarantee of that. 

People who just don't want to do housework (well, no one actually wants to do it but it does have to be done) generally get worse after the chaos of children is introduced.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> Things were still like this before the baby. She thinks she's so clean and tidy and I'm the one that's the problem...she does clean the bathroom regularly but the rest of the house gets attention about once a month.
> 
> When I was by myself in the house for a month, when I sent her to go home and visit her parents back in the US (we're in New Zealand), the house got slightly cleaner not dirtier. I can look after myself because I don't do much. But it's the whole family worth of people I can't look after when I'm pretty much screwed for time Mon - Fri. On Sat & Sun I pretty much take care of all the kids needs and she sits in front of the tv with a laptop on her lap.
> 
> ...


I'm an IT guy as well and have a similar commute. I'm shot when I get home, I imagine you are too. I can't imagine doing much beyond taking out the garbage. I can also tell you the age of your kids is a relatively easy age. The 2 month old will still take lots of naps and you say the other child is in nursery school. You need to confront this now and not later and especially if you plan on having any more children.

5 years from now your kids will add homework and maybe sports/activities to the mix. How will it be when you come home and none of the kids have done their homework and you have to take one of them to soccer? I realize your wife is difficult, you should really find a way to engage her to positively change her habits. Also, is it possible your expectations are too high? There's varying levels of messy, maybe you can set your expectations slightly lower.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I don't have anything to add. 

I just remember those times as very tough. Tougher on my wife than for me and I was working full time. We had 3 kids and the oldest was 3. I would get home from work and some days my wife would just leave (for a sanity break). She would go to the mall for a couple of hours and usually bring home some groceries.

But she always kept the house clean, laundry done and supper ready.

Your kids are very young. It is a tough time.

Best of luck.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Do you people realize that she got pregant with the second baby when the first one was only 4 months old? Seriously, my guess is she was EXHAUSTED because she was caring for ONE baby, while CARRYING the second one. And THEN she had the second one, via c-section, when the first was only 13 months old. FFS WHO THE HELL *WOULDN'T* be exhasted under those conditions??? GMAFB!


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## michelle13 (Oct 23, 2012)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> I don't think she's seeing my contribution to the household and holding value over it. Do you think it would help if I put up like a chore chart and signed off on the stuff I do help out with or do you think she'd find that patronizing/insulting?
> I think this might work, could you make it seem like her idea? That might help. Just tell her you wish there was a way you could show her what you do on a daily basis and she could do the same.
> 
> 
> ...


I also am very talkative and initiate all serious discussions in my house. I hardly ever readily admit to my husband how I really feel. Especially if it's something like depression or anything negative really. Don't assume that just because she's talkative that she's telling you everything about how she feels.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Do you people realize that she got pregant with the second baby when the first one was only 4 months old? Seriously, my guess is she was EXHAUSTED because she was caring for ONE baby, while CARRYING the second one. And THEN she had the second one, via c-section, when the first was only 13 months old. FFS WHO THE HELL *WOULDN'T* be exhasted under those conditions??? GMAFB!


 I don't think that an average of 2 hours a day doing laundry plus cleaning is really much to ask for someone who is pregnant. Not 2 consecutive hours or anything, but unless you live in a mansion I think a house would be in decent shape with that much time. Certainly if there was some stuff that couldn't get done the OP would probably be willing to help out on the weekends. 

My wife had our daughter in January of 2012 and our son just two weeks ago, so again I understand the OP's position. It was my wife's 4th c-section (I have two other sons 5 and 7), and she also had tubal ligation done so there was a fair amount of pain. For the first week after she got home she couldn't do a whole lot, but she's back to normal pretty much right now. I don't think she spends much more than 2 hours on the house an d I'm cool with that.


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## michelle13 (Oct 23, 2012)

The younger a child is and the more of them there are the more difficult it is. I am a SAHM with 2 young kids, they are 22 months apart. I will honestly say that my house did not get really clean and stay that way until my youngest was almost 2. I was exhausted 99% of the time. If my husband had have ever suggested that the house was not clean enough I would have Flipped out on him. Until you walk in her shoes day in and day out you really have NO idea what it is like. Sure it may seem like SAHM's have tons of time to themselves but in reality it is not as easy as people seem to think. I do think if it bother's you so much then you should find some kind of resolution, does it really hurt you if the house is messy? Or is it just that you're resentful of doing so much cleaning? My suggestion is make a chore chart for Yourself and tell her this is what I will do when I get home from work. Sign off on it as you do it and leave it at that. Don't do more, don't do less. That does not apply to taking care of the children in any way. That is just as much your "job" as it is hers. Your complaint is the cleaning, not the child rearing. Let her have input on the chore chart as well and write down an alloted time for each chore. Don't over schedule yourself. Also schedule in down time and tell her that that is your time off. If she wants in on the chore chart then put her name on it and schedule an equal amount of chores and down time.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Do you people realize that she got pregant with the second baby when the first one was only 4 months old? Seriously, my guess is she was EXHAUSTED because she was caring for ONE baby, while CARRYING the second one. And THEN she had the second one, via c-section, when the first was only 13 months old. FFS WHO THE HELL *WOULDN'T* be exhasted under those conditions??? GMAFB!


She absolutely could be exhausted, and yet her response is still inappropriate. She is an adult. If she is having problems, address then in an adult fashion. Ignoring her job, spending and yelling at him are not an adult way to do things.

_Edit_ - I will note the following from the OP that I just saw:

*On Sat & Sun I pretty much take care of all the kids needs and she sits in front of the tv with a laptop on her lap. *

Unless people believe he is lying, that does not sound like a husband who is not doing his part.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Good for her. I know from experience how *I* felt when I had all three of my c-sections. OP said his wife has said something about depression, I beieve? So add to that the fact that she's dealing with an infant, possibly post partum depression, got pregnant again, etc. Again, I say, give me a break. Some of us do have issues with those things when the babies are that close together. Mine were 21 months apart. Any closer and I would have been EXACTLY as OP described his wife. And I was breastfeeding my daughter until I hit 5-6 months of pregnancy. So, yes, very exhausted. 

That said, I DO agree that there's no reason the easy stuff, like sweeping and vacuuming, maybe dusting, can't be done in a few minutes each day...and loading the dishwasher, etc. Only takes a few minutes each day. But those who keep saying "she needs to get off her @$$ and get everything done while you're at work" are full of it. 

Mr. Landers, your wife is an exception. Most women are NOT back up to par, doing housework and such, two weeks after a c-section, including one where they have had a tubal ligation (me too). The only thing I was "up for" at two weeks was sex... otherwise, no. I didn't even get my staples out until two weeks post partum. 

Keep in mind, also, that your wife had/has how many helping her out with the younger two? OP's wife is alone with the two little ones, all day... except for the play group. Sorry, I still feel for the OP's wife here. Not everyone heals that fast... especially when dealing with depression.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> She absolutely could be exhausted, and yet her response is still inappropriate. She is an adult. If she is having problems, address then in an adult fashion. Ignoring her job, spending and yelling at him are not an adult way to do things.


And, again... I suspect depression. She needs to get to the doctor and get checked out.


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## michelle13 (Oct 23, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> She absolutely could be exhausted, and yet her response is still inappropriate. She is an adult. If she is having problems, address then in an adult fashion. Ignoring her job, spending and yelling at him are not an adult way to do things.


She does need to be an adult about it. But her "job" is not to be a maid, it is to take care of the children while he is at work. OP is not complaining that she doesn't. He is complaining that she doesn't keep the house as clean as he would if he was home the whole day. Taking care of infants and toddlers is a full time job, mentally and physically. Cleaning is also. So she is supposed to have 2 full time jobs until he gets home and then still take care of 1/2 of the evening and night time responsibilities. How is that fair? There needs to be compromise on both of their parts, I personally don't think there needs to be any yelling in a marriage. She does need to grow up and handle the compromise WITH him. Maybe if OP let her read this thread she could see how he really feels about it and perhaps one of the TAM member's suggestions would work for her. It is hard to be a SAHM and also be the family maid for the hours he is out of the house.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Good for her. I know from experience how *I* felt when I had all three of my c-sections. OP said his wife has said something about depression, I beieve? So add to that the fact that she's dealing with an infant, possibly post partum depression, got pregnant again, etc. Again, I say, give me a break. Some of us do have issues with those things when the babies are that close together. Mine were 21 months apart. Any closer and I would have been EXACTLY as OP described his wife. And I was breastfeeding my daughter until I hit 5-6 months of pregnancy. So, yes, very exhausted.
> 
> That said, I DO agree that there's no reason the easy stuff, like sweeping and vacuuming, maybe dusting, can't be done in a few minutes each day...and loading the dishwasher, etc. Only takes a few minutes each day. But those who keep saying "she needs to get off her @$$ and get everything done while you're at work" are full of it.
> 
> ...


I agree that my wife's situation is not typical. In addition to this she has rheumatoid arthritis that goes down in intensity while pregnant, but gets really bad when it comes back. But at two months, I'd think that most would be at least feeling 85% better physically. To be doing nothing except caring for the kids isn't reasonable. The OP should absolutely use that idea of the chore chart. Also there's simple workarounds for things as well. My wife was having trouble keeping up with the dishes, I went out and bought paper plates and plastic utensils. Little workarounds like that can make a difference.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> Things were still like this before the baby. She thinks she's so clean and tidy and I'm the one that's the problem...she does clean the bathroom regularly but the rest of the house gets attention about once a month.
> 
> Would she agree with that assessment? Doubtful. Something to remember as others have pointed out...you do the dishes and two minutes later there are more. You make the bed and the toddler is in there jumping on it. You vacuum and in a half an hour cheetos are being ground in the carpet. You never catch up and the work is never done. Some men are blessed with wives who instinctively or naturally know how to manage their limitations and delegate effectively and fairly. I find that those women are the exception rather than the rule.
> 
> ...


I know finances are prohibitive but I highly suggest paper plates and cups and disposable utensils. You may still have a trash issue but the dishes won't be that much of a problem any more.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

One thing I do miss about marriage is not having to do much housework, mostly the laundry I hate. Like ok, vacuum cleaning, scrubbing the bathroom, the kitchen, I have a systematic approach and everything gets done fast. But laundry... I have to chuck it in there, wait for a good half hour, take it out, hang it up, then later fold it and put it away. BAH - I HATE IT! But it's gotta be done!

And I have to work, though granted I don't have to work as hard nowadays compared to when I was younger. But your wife? Sorry mate, no excuses, you're sole provider pulling your weight and she's free loading off you. If she doesn't want to do housework, get her to contribute by working so that you guys can afford a housekeeper. Worst yet, if you two do divorce they are going to assume that your wife as a SAHM did the housework hence is entitled to half your assets as housekeeping is an occupation by itself. Think about it, you want her to exploit you any further? 

Put your foot down mate, no one should get away with this. But that's just me...


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Wow, RD, tell us how you really feel. 

Look, while I agree that it (apparently) seems she does nothing, some, other than myself, have pointed out that she very well may be doing things all day, but the messes keep coming back with two babies. Sorry, but I still see a 15 month old as a baby lol. Probably because mine were all still nursing at that age. 

OP, that's another thing I have been wondering... does she breastfeed or bottle feed? And, how did she feed your older child?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

michelle13 said:


> She does need to be an adult about it. But her "job" is not to be a maid, it is to take care of the children while he is at work.


I disagree. Her job is to take care of the house. She does not need to do everything, and he should have to do some things. There will be times when the house suffers while she is dealing with the kids. But her sole job is not the kids.



> OP is not complaining that she doesn't. He is complaining that she doesn't keep the house as clean as he would if he was home the whole day. Taking care of infants and toddlers is a full time job, mentally and physically. Cleaning is also. So she is supposed to have 2 full time jobs until he gets home and then still take care of 1/2 of the evening and night time responsibilities. How is that fair?


Sorry, it is not two full time jobs. Cleaning the house is not a full time job. But, if you are going to do that, then he has his full time, plus two half time jobs. Plus, he has a full time job on weekends taking care of the kids, as she watches TV and plays with her laptop. So how is it now unfair?



> [There needs to be compromise on both of their parts, I personally don't think there needs to be any yelling in a marriage.


I think compromise makes sense. I just don't see much on her end yet.



> She does need to grow up and handle the compromise WITH him. Maybe if OP let her read this thread she could see how he really feels about it and perhaps one of the TAM member's suggestions would work for her. It is hard to be a SAHM and also be the family maid for the hours he is out of the house.


I don't know of any mother who views raising the children as her sole job. A SAHM has many responsibilities, and many are hard. But I don't think he is asking her to be the maid. He is asking her to just do her part like he is. She appears to be taking care of the kids. She is cleaning the bathrooms. I don't see much else.

I do think he needs to seriously consider what honestly and reasonably needs to be done to allow the home to run. Then talk with her about dividing all the work (his work, child care and home care) so that it gets done.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Wow, RD, tell us how you really feel.
> 
> Look, while I agree that it (apparently) seems she does nothing, some, other than myself, have pointed out that she very well may be doing things all day, but the messes keep coming back with two babies. Sorry, but I still see a 15 month old as a baby lol. Probably because mine were all still nursing at that age.
> 
> OP, that's another thing I have been wondering... does she breastfeed or bottle feed? And, how did she feed your older child?


Again, I will point out that on weekends, she sits in front of the television and her laptop, while he does everything. Unless we think he is lying, I don't think that sounds like someone who is a go getter the rest of the week.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Again, I will point out that on weekends, she sits in front of the television and her laptop, while he does everything. Unless we think he is lying, I don't think that sounds like someone who is a go getter the rest of the week.


I have my computer on everyday. I have the TV on as well. Even when I pick things up after the kids (once they were toddlers), it still became a mess again shortly after. And weekends? Actually, neither of us do much on the weekends. So, sorry to say, the way things are on weekends is not necessarily a good indication of the way they play out during the week. If she is as exhausted as I believe, AND suffering from depression, then she absolutely welcomes him taking over (as he sees it, I believe) on the weekends. Sorry, I still say she's not as healed as he thinks and she's dealing with depression, and has been at least since the first baby was born.

First step, get her to the doctor to get checked for post partum depression. And while it hasn't been stated yet about any heavy lifting.... she actualy shouldn't even lift the 15 month old yet. Not sure how she gets her to the table for meals or changes her during the day, but even at 2 months, she shouldn't be lifting more than weight equal to the baby. Unless the doctors have gotten lax in what they tell the patients after major surgeries now... So, if using a mop and bucket to mop the floors, that is out for now.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

A two month old and a fifteen month old? And she had a c-section? That's really hard. 

I'm sorry, I don't actually believe you that they sit in front of the tv all day. For a start, how would you know that if you're at work? And a two month old isn't going to be interested in tv, a fifteen month old either, not all day.

She obviously needs more help. If she was like this with only one child, why did you have another so close? What did you expect, that shed suddenly get much better?


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## michelle13 (Oct 23, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I disagree. Her job is to take care of the house. She does not need to do everything, and he should have to do some things. There will be times when the house suffers while she is dealing with the kids. But her sole job is not the kids.
> 
> It all depends on how you look at it. I stay at home and I give my 2 and 4 year old chores. They have to help clean up from one activity before starting another. That is part of taking care of the kids. Perhaps she is on "strike" due to what she feels as attacks on her housekeeping abilities. Not mature, that is why I suggested the chore chart. He would be able to see exactly how many times she did the dishes in a given day or cleaned the living room. Some cleaning is a part of taking care of the kids.
> 
> ...


Like I said there are a lot of good suggestions on here, he should let her read it. They need clear cut boundaries and chore division. He also shouldn't expect it to be spotless with 2 kids under the age of 2 years old. That is unrealistic. I don't mean to sound argumentative, I just get annoyed when so much is expected out of SAHMs. It is emotionally and mentally HARD to deal with being the only adult in the house for hours on end. I can't even imagine doing it in another country with no support system aside from my husband.


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

Personally, I think your wife is either depressed or just plain lazy (and I say this as a woman).

One of two things is going on here. Either there really is an unbalanced division of labor and that needs to be addressed or your wife is overwhelmed/depressed/lazy and no amount of housework on your part is going to fix that.

If you think it's #1, I would suggest a chore chart. If you guys can agree on a reasonable schedule that allows both of you time "alone" and time with the kids, then put that down on paper. Then if you get your chores done, you can sit and play computer all you want and vice versa. But if her chores aren't done, she can't yell at you about it.

If it's #2, get her to a doctor and into counseling. Quit running yourself ragged because it won't help anything and make actually cause more harm than good.

I understand that taking care of two babies all day is hard but your wife CHOSE to have 2 babies barely a year apart. She CHOSE to be a SAHM. Yes, it's hard but tough nuggets. I did not choose to have babies that close together and I choose to work rather than be a SAHM. I'd be batsh*t crazy if I had to stay home with two little kids all day. But if that's the case, then she needs to make a different choice and get a job.


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

> I'm going to disagree with you on this, cleaning is a full time job if it is done completely and fully.


Sorry Michelle but I have to call BS on this one. I was going nuts working full-time and taking care of 2 little boys so I hired a maid. She comes in for 2 hours per day (2 HOURS) and none at all on the weekends. In that 10 hours per week, she cooks us dinner every night, gets all of the laundry done, dishes are done, bathrooms cleaned, floors are cleaned, house dusted and picked up. She has even started getting bored and weeding the yard outside.

Granted, she doesn't have the boys running around her (they are in daycare) but still, cleaning a house is NOT a full-time job in and of itself. If it is, you are doing something very wrong.


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## michelle13 (Oct 23, 2012)

justonelife said:


> Sorry Michelle but I have to call BS on this one. I was going nuts working full-time and taking care of 2 little boys so I hired a maid. She comes in for 2 hours per day (2 HOURS) and none at all on the weekends. In that 10 hours per week, she cooks us dinner every night, gets all of the laundry done, dishes are done, bathrooms cleaned, floors are cleaned, house dusted and picked up. She has even started getting bored and weeding the yard outside.
> 
> Granted, she doesn't have the boys running around her (they are in daycare) but still, cleaning a house is NOT a full-time job in and of itself. If it is, you are doing something very wrong.


It depends on how many you are cleaning up after. For my household it is,myself, 3 kids, a husband, a cat, 2 dogs, a chicken coop, a saltwater fish tank that gets daily maintenance. 3 meals cooked per day, I do all the chores by myself with 2 of the kids with me 24/7, one in school. Then there's homework, extra curricular activities, play dates. If I didn't have kids I could get it all done in about half a day I'd say. But when you add kids into the mix it doubles the time it takes to complete any task. I agree that the OP's wife is depressed and that there should be some compromise. But what she does do shouldn't be be-littled either.


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

michelle13 said:


> It depends on how many you are cleaning up after. For my household it is,myself, 3 kids, a husband, a cat, 2 dogs, a chicken coop, a saltwater fish tank that gets daily maintenance. 3 meals cooked per day, I do all the chores by myself with 2 of the kids with me 24/7, one in school. Then there's homework, extra curricular activities, play dates. If I didn't have kids I could get it all done in about half a day I'd say. But when you add kids into the mix it doubles the time it takes to complete any task. I agree that the OP's wife is depressed and that there should be some compromise. But what she does do shouldn't be be-littled either.


I'm not belittling what she does. I freely admit that I couldn't do it. But the statement that cleaning all by itself is a full-time job is not correct. Cleaning AND child care together, yes, that is a full-time job but not 2 full-time jobs.

But the OP is already working a full-time job. IMO, if the wife is REALLY spending a solid 8-9 hours taking care of the kids and housework and then sharing the evening/weekend duties, everything should be able to get done. But it doesn't sound like that is happening.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

justonelife said:


> Personally, I think your wife is either depressed or just plain lazy (and I say this as a woman).
> 
> One of two things is going on here. Either there really is an unbalanced division of labor and that needs to be addressed or your wife is overwhelmed/depressed/lazy and no amount of housework on your part is going to fix that.
> 
> ...


Uhhh, you have those backwards... but I get what you mean.



justonelife said:


> I understand that taking care of two babies all day is hard but your wife CHOSE to have 2 babies barely a year apart. She CHOSE to be a SAHM. Yes, it's hard but tough nuggets. I did not choose to have babies that close together and* I choose to work rather than be a SAHM*. I'd be batsh*t crazy if I had to stay home with two little kids all day. But if that's the case, then she needs to make a different choice and get a job.


And this just burns my @$$. Seriously, being a SAHM *IS* work, just as going to a "regular job" is. The difference? We SAHPs don't get paid money for our time, and our kids (generally) are not in any sort of daycare. And, it actually sounds condescending when put that way.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

justonelife said:


> Sorry Michelle but I have to call BS on this one. I was going nuts working full-time and taking care of 2 little boys so I hired a maid. She comes in for 2 hours per day (2 HOURS) and none at all on the weekends. In that 10 hours per week, she cooks us dinner every night, gets all of the laundry done, dishes are done, bathrooms cleaned, floors are cleaned, house dusted and picked up. She has even started getting bored and weeding the yard outside.
> 
> *Granted, she doesn't have the boys running around her (they are in daycare) but still, cleaning a house is NOT a full-time job in and of itself. If it is, you are doing something very wrong.*


So if she HAD the boys running around all day then maybe it would have been different? How about if she was feeding/nursing a 2 month old baby and watching a 15 month old? 

Cleaning the house IS a full time job because part of cleaning is doing the dishes, and washing the laundry, folding it and putting it away. 

Having a person coming in for 2 hours a day is NOT cleaning, that is called tidying up. 

I think any SAHMor SAHD would be joyous if she/he only had to tidy up for 2 hours a day...but that isn't how it works.


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> And this just burns my @$$. Seriously, being a SAHM *IS* work, just as going to a "regular job" is. The difference? We SAHPs don't get paid money for our time, and our kids (generally) are not in any sort of daycare. And, it actually sounds condescending when put that way.


Maricha - I apologize. I just meant that I choose to have a paid job outside of the home. And I choose that because for me, it is easier than staying home with two little babies and doing housework all day. I will be the first to admit that SAHMs (at least while the kids are young enough to be home all day) work harder than I do. All I was trying to say is that she made that choice. If it's too much for her, maybe she needs to make a different choice.

Personally, I don't think this is about housework at all. I think there are lots of communication problems and she is feeling depressed or overwhelmed and doesn't know how to communicate this.


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

anony2 said:


> So if she HAD the boys running around all day then maybe it would have been different? How about if she was feeding/nursing a 2 month old baby and watching a 15 month old?
> 
> Cleaning the house IS a full time job because part of cleaning is doing the dishes, and washing the laundry, folding it and putting it away.
> 
> ...


Maybe you didn't read my post but that 2 hours a day DOES include dishes, laundry, folding it and putting it away. It's not just tidying up, she does EVERYTHING including the cooking. I don't mean to be snippy but maybe you should actually read a post before jumping down my throat.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

Maintenance cleaning, laundry and doing dishes should not be a full time job. If it is you're doing it wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michelle13 (Oct 23, 2012)

justonelife said:


> Personally, I don't think this is about housework at all. I think there are lots of communication problems and she is feeling depressed or overwhelmed and doesn't know how to communicate this.


I think you are 100% right about this. There are lots of times when staying at home is depressing and overwhelming. In OP's case they are in another country with no emotional support for either of them, aside from each other.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Uhhh, you have those backwards... but I get what you mean.
> 
> 
> 
> And this just burns my @$$. Seriously, being a SAHM *IS* work, just as going to a "regular job" is. The difference? We SAHPs don't get paid money for our time, and our kids (generally) are not in any sort of daycare. And, it actually sounds condescending when put that way.


I agree Maricha, and I actually think this is the OP's wifes problem. I know from experience sometimes men look down on women who are SAHM's and they act as if all they do is sit around eating bon bons and watching soap opera's but they do not see the 100 spills that we had to clean up, the diapers that needed soaked and washed, the 4x a night or more that we breastfed the babies and so on. 

I think she is sensing his disapproval and his idea that he could do it better, so she feels as if she isn't enough (a good enough mother, a good enough wife, a good enough housekeeper...and so on). This causes deep depression because we can sense we are not living up to our husband's expectations of us and it hurts. 

I too had c-sections (4 in total) and I was not up to par on any of them by 2 months. I was exhausted, hormonal, and I felt abandoned because I felt as if I was holding down the fort alone. Sometimes all us SAHM's want is a bit of appreciation for what we do instead of a long list of what we didn't get around to doing. I wonder how the OP would feel if his boss treated him like he treats his wife.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

justonelife said:


> Maybe you didn't read my post but that 2 hours a day DOES include dishes, laundry, folding it and putting it away. It's not just tidying up, she does EVERYTHING including the cooking. I don't mean to be snippy but maybe you should actually read a post before jumping down my throat.


I wasn't trying to jump down your throat, I am saying that what she is doing in those two hours is NOT equivalent because your maid isn't taking care of the children while trying to clean. THAT is what makes it a full time job.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

anony2 said:


> I agree Maricha, and I actually think this is the OP's wifes problem. I know from experience sometimes men look down on women who are SAHM's and they act as if all they do is sit around eating bon bons and watching soap opera's but they do not see the 100 spills that we had to clean up, the diapers that needed soaked and washed, the 4x a night or more that we breastfed the babies and so on.
> 
> I think she is sensing his disapproval and his idea that he could do it better, so she feels as if she isn't enough (a good enough mother, a good enough wife, a good enough housekeeper...and so on). This causes deep depression because we can sense we are not living up to our husband's expectations of us and it hurts.
> 
> I too had c-sections (4 in total) and I was not up to par on any of them by 2 months. I was exhausted, hormonal, and I felt abandoned because I felt as if I was holding down the fort alone. Sometimes all us SAHM's want is a bit of appreciation for what we do instead of a long list of what we didn't get around to doing. I wonder how the OP would feel if his boss treated him like he treats his wife.


I think you need to reread the OP's first post. You're projecting and making this about you. I'm sure the OP has his faults, and communication is poor, but there's clearly a problem with his wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

BrockLanders said:


> I think you need to reread the OP's first post. You're projecting and making this about you. I'm sure the OP has his faults, and communication is poor, but there's clearly a problem with his wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you need to re-read the original poster saying that apparently Fledling hit the nail on the head with her post almost to the point of stalking him...which basically changed what was said in the opening post which is why some contributors changed their minds. 

YOU have clearly projected though, because you automatically presumed that it was a problem with the wife...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

michelle13 said:


> Like I said there are a lot of good suggestions on here, he should let her read it. They need clear cut boundaries and chore division. He also shouldn't expect it to be spotless with 2 kids under the age of 2 years old. That is unrealistic. I don't mean to sound argumentative, I just get annoyed when so much is expected out of SAHMs. It is emotionally and mentally HARD to deal with being the only adult in the house for hours on end. I can't even imagine doing it in another country with no support system aside from my husband.


And I get annoyed with the suggestion that a SAHM is above criticism. Raising the kids is not her only job. I don't doubt it is hard. I don't expect a perfect hous and I don't see the OP expecting it either. But I do think he wants a partner who won't throw everything on him. Clearly that is asking to much. He should do everything while she focuses on the kids and gets a break on the weekends while he takes on her job. That seems perfectly fair. 

One good point I agree with is get her to the doctor to get a check up regarding depression.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

BrockLanders said:


> Maintenance cleaning, laundry and doing dishes should not be a full time job. If it is you're doing it wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Sure the cleaning isn't a full time job (assuming that there are no extenuating circumstances like children or a slovenly partner or pets etc etc) What about everything else the typical SAHM does like grocery shopping, doctors appts, car maintenence, PTA meatings, school volunteer work etc etc etc all of which eats away at her time to clean? I guess it depends on what a person's definition of a SAHM is = does the M stand for Maid or does the M stand for Mom? Where does the family's obligation to not make her work harder begin? If you had to outsource everything that a mother does in a typical day she would certainly get paid for a full time job --- probably more than her spouse. If the mom was gone and no one stepped in her place you'd be paying through the nose. There is a tendency to define motherhood as a job because we see jobs as adding "tangible" value in the form of "money".However all moms add "intangible" value. The reality is that value is value. Whether on is tangible and one is not is irrelevent.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

She had a Caesarian two months ago. She has a two month old. She shouldn't be expected to do a normal household load yet. 

She needs more help. Either the husband does it, a friend or family member does it or they pay for it.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

My wife had two ceasarians 14 months apart and we discussed this to make sure I am not mis-speaking. Within a couple of weeks of each she was doing the same housework load and it was about a month before it was back to daily vigorous sex.

It's one thing to acknowledge the job a sahm does, but to play this whining martyr routine is uncalled for. Billions of women and men both worldwide have stiff work schedules and that's what men and women do without expecting medals for it on the one hand, but on the other hand to be respected instead of abused emotionally.

I shower my wife with gratitude for everything she does and she does the same for me. Yell at each other? Never happened in five years.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Your wife sounds like she's overwhelmed with the kids being so young. It is pretty exhausting raising the children when they are so young and need a constant lookout. 

Your wife sounds like she's taking you for granted. She should not expect so much from you. The way she talks to you is disrespectful. She has no clue how hard your working during the day to provide for the family. Your wife should never expect you to pick up 1/2 the house duties while she's a SAHM.

Perhaps your wife needs to go back to work. Then decide what's easier.

I personally think working full time, then coming home to two 2-3 very young children is exhausting. After an 8 hour workday there was cooking and cleaning to do. It's much easier being a SAHP then working full time and running a household. 

If your wife is at home, it's essentially her duty to do the housework. The house might be a little messy here and there since the children are young, but that's no excuse not to even try to get everything done. I certainly can not imagine talking to my husband the way your wife talks to you. 

The kids won't stay young forever. This will pass and the kids will be easier to manage in a few years. It won't be so overwhelming watching the children and keeping the house clean. Don't let your wife ever push you around. That's just disrespectful.

I'm a SAHM and will not ever return to work. I never expect my husband to do the housework. He does do all the shopping since I'm disabled(permanent neck injury) and I can not walk far or lift heavy objects. I take care of the rest inside the home. I use to do the outside work as well, but no longer am I able to. 

My husband has always come home and helped with the kids, he still does and this is well appreciated. He helps take them to their sports which around here it's all traveling sports and sometimes a 60 minute drive one way. Never would I expect him to do the housework. He works very hard to provide for us. I have asked for help once in a great while if I absolutely can not do it, but housework is not my husbands cup of tea and that is fine with me.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> My wife had two ceasarians 14 months apart and we discussed this to make sure I am not mis-speaking. Within a couple of weeks of each she was doing the same housework load and it was about a month before it was back to daily vigorous sex.


Your wife is awesome then! Seriously! To be able to go back to doing the same housework load only a week after a c-section? Truly an exception. I know most people can't do that just a week after major surgery. And daily vigorous sex a month after as well? Again, she's exceptional. I couldn't wait to have sex after my kids were born. We waited 2 weeks, which was when my staples were removed. But vigorous? And daily? Ummm no. While I never pushed the babies out of my vagina, I still had a fair amount of pain/discomfort for a couple months... no way was it daily, nor "vigorous" that early on.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Maricha75 said:


> Do you people realize that she got pregant with the second baby when the first one was only 4 months old? Seriously, my guess is she was EXHAUSTED because she was caring for ONE baby, while CARRYING the second one. And THEN she had the second one, via c-section, when the first was only 13 months old. FFS WHO THE HELL *WOULDN'T* be exhasted under those conditions??? GMAFB!


Not to be a smart ass here, But I wasn't.... I had 2 c-sections within 11 months, was on top of the world, couldn't wait to have sex and got all my work done... (don't chew me out Maricha... I was a very happy MOM...thankful - after all those yrs of infertility, I'd climb a mountain - for the opportunity to go through all that pain.... (Those percocet pills - literally took my pain away once I got home.. till it wore off completely)...

At one time we had 4 kids under the age of 6, 2 in diapers (I used cloth, we didn't have a dryer by choice - hung them all on the line... never had a dishwasher (wouldn't want one either)... the most help I had was some wonderful ladies from church bringing us some meals... I was very thankful.. My husband told me I could have as many babies as I wanted ...*HIS CONDITION*..... so long as I took care of them & the house...... I held to that, never expected him to get up in the middle of the night -unless I was sick... I probably changed 95% of those diapers... I did all the cooking, dishes...every mundane task basically... 

But I will admit, I've ALWAYS had the PEP of the energizer bunny... never had Post partum, none had colic, I used bottles (way easier)... am a grand multi-tasker...& I heartily ENJOY being a SAHM... 

None the less....THIS IS A TREMENDOUS problem as this husband should NOT be expected to do this work after coming home working 12 hours a day.. .I say :wtf: 

Not that this is going to help him, he seems to be defending her behavior left & right...=which is only going to get him MORE of the same, some women will MILK it.... I don't see any respect on her part, or care of his workload...doesn't she even FEEL BAD that she can't keep up, show some humility, apologizing? 





*My thoughts >>>* 

*1.* Get her on Birth control... she can not handle any more children. 

*2. **If she is depressed/ Post partum, she needs to be seen by a doctor*. Knew a lady like this- from my Mops group, never seen anyone so sad & out of it... it was a bad case. 

*3*. *Find the $$ to hire a house keeper.*.... this will save your sanity... I used to clean house - on top of all my children (we have 6) & our own house.. cleaned for this one Doctor... his wife had the life of luxury....didn't seem to lift a finger..... not that I cared - Hey I was making some good $$..... but her house was like a cyclone hit it every time I walked through the door.... I am sure they loved me when I left! She also didn't make her children pick up after anything....had 3 sons...Monster house...she was glued to the internet all day... so beware....those little sweethearts (or cute little monsters) will grow up to be messies - if this is not nipped in the butt. 

*4. * A woman needs to learn* Multitasking skills*... It is very possible to have laundry going, food in the oven, talking to a friend on speaker phone, while you are doing dishes, during a babies nap. 

*5.* If the house is a disaster, how can the toddler even live but in a playpen.. as they may hurt themselves or stick something in their mouth. A mother can not be there watching her 24/7.. .we need to get things done.... *A Clean house is a SAFE house for children*... use gates, baby swings, binkys ... get toys & dvds to entertain... 

*6*. Suggestion: If she is feeling lonely , disconnected , needs to make friends... *Join a Mops group* - to meet other struggling Mothers in her area, I've been going to one for the last 15 yrs... (this is christian based, many times meeting in churches- but one does not need to be a believer to join - just saying)...  MOPS -Mothers of preschoolers Link to find a group in her area HERE 

*7*. If /when her Doc gives her a clean bill of health on recovering from this C-section...(like every other woman- 75% of them work outside the home too).... what excuses are left I ask? How to motivate the Unmotivated who can't see their own lack... 

*8.* When she does do something- TRYING TO come meet you half way... encourage her..Praise her... Praising her for doing dishes once a month...My Lord, how can you not want to shoot her ... I'm sorry... you have the patience of JOB here... How to get her to recognize all the work you do.... This is simply a huge character flaw. 

*9.* Sit down with her...come up with a workable plan - deciding who will be responsible for what...put up a *schedule calendar* for her to remind herself -if she has too....I'd tell you to look up Multitasking Housewives on google, but DON'T... I got a trojan doing that once ~ for a thread similar to this. 





Wiserforit said:


> My wife had two ceasarians 14 months apart and we discussed this to make sure I am not mis-speaking. Within a couple of weeks of each she was doing the same housework load and it was about a month before it was back to daily vigorous sex.
> 
> It's one thing to acknowledge the job a sahm does, but to play this whining martyr routine is uncalled for. *Billions of women and men both worldwide have stiff work schedules and that's what men and women do without expecting medals for it on the one hand, but on the other hand to be respected instead of abused emotionally.*
> 
> *I shower my wife with gratitude for everything she does and she does the same for me.* Yell at each other? Never happened in five years.


 Sounds like our marriage, we have had some fights over the years.. but never over this issue....


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> 1. Your wife sounds like she's taking you for granted. She should not expect so much from you. The way she talks to you is disrespectful. Perhaps your wife needs to go back to work. Then decide what's easier.
> 
> 2. If your wife is at home, it's essentially her duty to do the housework. The house might be a little messy here and there since the children are young, but that's no excuse not to even try to get everything done.
> 
> 3. The kids won't stay young forever. *This will pass and the kids will be easier to manage in a few years.* It won't be so overwhelming watching the children and keeping the house clean.


1. *I definitely agree that she is taking you for granted.* She knows that when you come home, you'll clean....as you have been doing. So why should she lift a finger during the day other than to tap on her keyboard?  

*Here is my suggestion:* Stop doing all the house work when you get home from work. Instead, spend some quality time with your babies. Read a story to the older child and hold your other baby. That will strengthen your bond with them. It will also free up the wife to other household duties. If the house gets so filthy and you look around and think "eeeewwwwwwww", then hopefully at some point SHE will, too. If she's a great mother, she won't want her babies living in filth and she'll do something about it. This is just my suggestion to get the ball rolling in the other direction, so to speak.

2. I also agree that a SAHM should take most of the responsibility for cleaning the house and taking care of the kids. If she doesn't want to work outside the house, then she needs to be working inside the house and keeping it clean. She sounds lazy to me. Again, cut off the internet and cut off "shopping" funds for things she doesn't need. 

3. No, kids don't stay young forever and they grow up FAST, but I have to *disagree and say that the older they get, the harder it will get.* For the most part, babies are easy (unless they're colicky, sick all the time, etc.). They just need to be fed, changed, and watched when they are this young. They also nap a lot at this stage. The older baby can play with toys and STILL be watched while Mom cleans nearby. But take note that when they are in the terrible two's and awful three's, it's a whole nother world and you'll be like :scratchhead: :wtf: They'll both be walking/running around and it will be crazy at times. This will not fly with Mom on her computer constantly. And when you walk in the house with this type of chaos........ 

You need to change this up NOW! Before it gets worse. Trust me!


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> *None the less....THIS IS A TREMENDOUS problem as this husband should NOT be expected to do this work after coming home working 12 hours a day.. .I say* :wtf:
> 
> Not that this is going to help him, he seems to be defending her behavior left & right...=which is only going to get him MORE of the same, some women will MILK it.... I don't see any respect on her part, or care of his workload...doesn't she even FEEL BAD that she can't keep up, show some humility, apologizing?
> *My thoughts >>>*
> ...


SA makes a lot of good points! :iagree:

I also say :wtf:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Fledgling said:


> It angers me that many people, including other SAHM, critisize SAHMs, without being fully aware of the other SAHM situations. Was she ever taught properly how to clean in her own family for instance? What is the financial situation like? Is she depressed? Is the husband a slob? Is her house too small/too big? Is she sleep deprived?
> 
> Why aren't any of these options explored before it gets to the point of SAHM being accused of falling down on the job or lazy?!


How does one not listen to the plight of this husband and this behavior without having some form of judgement? Switch this around for a moment...*this is no different than a decent working man raising his family ....who sees the fall out of another MAN* *NOT taking responsibility for his family, fcking up on his job... can't hold a job, and his family suffers*... that said man can make all the excuses in the world, blaming his past, his parents, ignorance...depression, can't get along with anyone... but the fact remains... the family & marriage is suffering...

Unless DownTroddenHubby is exaggerating his story here... Let's take a stroll over what is happening here... his plight... Just imagine (women too, being in HIS SHOES for a moment)....

*1.* He works full time , wakes up at 5am and gets home at 6:30pm (hour drive both ways)...she doesn't work outside the home...... She has 15 hours a week where the 15 month old gets day care... and a Play group on Thursdays. 

*2. *She doesn't do his laundry, she only does the dishes -he says about once a [email protected]#$ Are you kidding me ?? , and she doesn't take out the trash. What IS the deal with women and trash collection...this has never bothered me, but it is such a contention with some. Had a friend who would get so angry over this , she would allow it to heap over in her kitchen just to Bi*ch at her husband claiming he didn't care if the kids ate out of the garbage....and I am thinking to myself... "well apparently you didn't either !"@#$ 

*3.* She thinks it's not fair that he goes to work & HE gets a certain amount of time off - even though he comes home.... feeds their 15 month old, gives her a bath, then puts her to bed...then gets to take over primary care for our 2 month old by feeding her, keeping a clean diaper on her & holding her till bedtime... Where the hell is HIS TIME OFF ? Read the next one... 


*4. *He claims 1 hour a week on the computer - WOW !!! How many hours is she on there ?? Sounds like she gets LOADS of TV time -with the laptop on her lap on the weekends while he is cooking, doing laundry & taking care of these kids. 

Not to mention he willingly (because he wants her happiness -even though nothing seems to bring it on)....plays the loving helpful husband -allowing her to sleep in till 10 -11 Am every Sat & Sun, gets the kids up -feeds them & keeps them entertained. When the hell does HE get to sleep in? Let's see, that is about 100 days she gets to sleep in and him... ZERO [email protected]#$ I wonder if she even gets up in the am for him before work -to help with his breakfast? 

*5. * She refuses to have sex with HIM ... giving some sarcastic blaming remark such as this >>..."Why would we have sex you just to be physical and not wine and dine me? You don't make me feel sexy and I'm resentful about how we're living"... My thoughts on this.. well, I won't even go there ...let's just say ...My empathy is on this husband 100% 

*6*. His words >>> "She's the kind of person that if given an ultimatum she'll do the worst thing she can do to hurt you and ignore it. She has a bit of a control issue and wouldn't respond to being told what to do. I'd rather not have her run off with my children overseas just to spite me because I demand respect or else." Lovely attitude this woman has.. I would NOT defend this.....

DowntroddenHubby seems to admit HE was aware of her attitude BEFORE....so he signed up for a woman of this sort of challenge... this is his fall out....he is now feeling the heat....

Sounds like you are determined to stick it out - God Bless you... I don't believe anyone here can help this situation... *Her attitude* has your hands tied behind your back, I'd like to say something else has been tied as well. .


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

There are always going to be problems in marriages. A sparkling house where one person has done all the work can cause just as much problems as a house that's messy due mainly to one person. Alot of it depends on the people involved and their tolerance for mess. Then factor in other family stressors and you've got a unique situation in each house.

I think that people see the messy house being disrespectful to her husband. But it could just as easily be depression, boredom, hopelessness, exhaustion, simply a high tolerance for mess, or a house that doesn't have enough storage or makes certain tasks inconvenient. None of which means that she doesn't value her husbands contribution to the house and all of which can be resolved with time and patience and support. And by support I don't mean haughtily assuming responsibilities because they "have to get done." while fuming. That's guilt tripping not supporting. A supportive action would be to notice when the wife is folding socks and sitting down with her to fold them, or asking for her help folding them if she is not otherwise engaged and watching a movie together while doing it. 

I don't think a standard chore chart will help in this situation. We all know the "basics" but what about other things that crop up during they day that we just do when we notice them or think of it or when a situation arises that needs immediate attention (like a dirty diaper or a hungry infant)? It's far better to work on ways to limit distractions that everyone can agree on. For instance shutting off the internet would deprive the husband of Steam (needed for gaming) and would limit her ability to find "deals". (which is also a form of recreation for her.) So instead they could agree that neither of them use the computer while the other person can't.

But of course this requires communication. I'd be willing to bet that they have difficulty communicating over many things. From the OPs posts it really sounds like she is feeling attacked or that he is trying to fix her. This might be why she lashes out in addition to any post partum effecs, or depression she might be feeling.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Dear OP,

I am sorry. And, I am frightened for you, your kids, and your wife. There are many many many similarities to how my wife seemed to me 13 years ago, and how I tried to cope. 

You are wise to be looking for help, and input from others with relevant experience. You seem to realize this, but let me say it out loud: There is both good and bad advice in this forum, and there are people who are objective and people who are not. And, there are people way to deep in their own dysfunctional family situation who give the worst advice of all: that having to do with their problem, and nothing to do with yours. Please guard yourself against this sort of thing.

I literally feel like vomiting, though I only read your original post and skimmed over just a handful of the replies. The queasyness arose at first because your description of your existence felt just how I would have described mine several years earlier. The queasiness got worse, as I realized some came here with their own axe to grind. I wish they would go away and contribute to your wife's thread; I'm sure she has one. Not.

That's not to say there are not women who are way overburdend. Unfairly so. They have lazy husbands who are ***holes. I have met some. I have tried not to be. I don't think I am one. I don't think OP is one either, but I don't know him; for now I'm going to take his word and assume that he is not.

In my case, I could tell you all something my wife brought up recently, about some "lazy man transgression" I committed while we lived together, before marriage, and before kids; maybe I will in a thread of my own. But, for now, let me just say it's clear she (my wife) has a distorted view of what a reasonble split of responsiblities is; in her mind, apparently very little is required from a stay-at-home-fiance, with no kids, no job, after creating a situation that cost her fiance (me) two years of 1.5 hours of extra commute. I pity the fool I was. But I digress, this is OP's thread, not mine.

I know what it is like to love someone that is struggling. My wife has had many struggles in her life, and I've tried to be "strong enough to be her man." I know what it's like to see how a lover suffers, and at the sametime see how some of her pain gets redirected towards me. I've taken quite a bit of it unflinchingly, and though intellectually at the time I was sure I did not deserve it, I took it. Because, that's what I thought a man was, a lover was. And, I sure did not want to be one of those ***hole men that don't care about anyone but themselves.

I know motherhood is hard. (Fatherhood is hard too.) Post-partum depression is a real thing, and so is physical pain after childbirth. I want to shout to some of the other posters here: It is possible some husbands "get it" -- they see suffering, they see how hard it is, and they try very very hard to be a good enough spouse to make it better "for her" somehow. They take all the best that is in them, and use all of their engery to put it into action to make her life better. The instinct, for some men, isn't to be indifferent and let her suffering get worse, so, say, they can watch TV or go out golfing or hang with the bud's. The instinct for them is to give all that they have to try to make things better. And that, as strange and cruel and twisted as it sounds, destroys everything.

OP, I might have some things I'd like to tell you, if you are interested. Quite honestly, I'm exhasted right now, and also need to get back to work (at my job). But if there is just one thing you take from what I've said, it is this:

As big as her problems are right now,
As big as your problems are right now,
If you continue to cope by sacrificing your
needs, and suppressing your own feelings,
and disowning yourself bit by bit,
then you will fail. You will all lose.
And your kids will suffer.

If you turn out like me, you will find yourself wishing you could just die. Or at least just leave and never look back. My wife has turned out the same. And yet, I stay "for the kids". Boy, are they getting a ****ty deal.

I don't know what the answer is. But, like they say on the airplane before take-off: If the mask s drop down, put yours on first before you struggle to try to put one on anyone else.

(To some of you others: I hope I didn't offend you. But, the last think OP needs is for someone to give him yet another reason to believe his own pain is not valid and he doesn't have a right to feel the way he is starting too. I say "starting to" because, it seems his coping strategy is really to defer feeling in the moment what he naturally needs to feel.

Also, let me say I'm a husband and a man. It is obvious to me roles could easily be reversed, and wives have suffered in the exact way this husband appears to be, and for the same reason.)

I wish everyone the best.


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

I just want to make the brief point that women used to be called "homemakers", not "stay at home moms". I don't think the house needs to be sparkling with two babies and the husband should help out too, but the sole job isn't just taking care of the kids. It's taking care of the home.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

As your W is a SAHM, by the time you get home in the evening all the housework should be done and dinner in the process of being prepared. After dinner, and on weekends / public holidays, any household tasks should be shared, but other than that, IMO, tending to the home etc is your W's job - period. If she isn't happy with that, then she should go out to work and you hire a babysitter and a cleaner. She can't have it both ways.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> We don't have the option to spend time together with just the two of us with a 15month old and a 2month old. We don't have anyone that can babysit and we don't really feel comfortable someone looking after our 2month old anyway since she's so young we want to wait until she's at least 6months old before leaving her with a nursery or babysitter. I would feel blessed if there was 15 hours in my week that I could give to us time but it's just not there.


You must find the option.
Do not accept this. It is not sustainable. It is VERY damaging.

Here's what I'd predict, based on how well it worked from my wife and I. (Please forgive me if I'm speaking out of turn.)

Some day, one or both of you will realize this has been a problem -- not making opportunities for you to spend quality time together and doing fun things. Then, one of you will take steps to fit a little time together into your lives. You will be hopeful, "Yes, finally we are starting to do the things lovers do to sustain their affection, their bond." And, when you are sitting across the table in the restaurant, and find you have nothing to say (the resentment you have swallowed is stuck in your throat, and your voice is weaker anyways), she will think -- yeah, just like I thought -- he checked out a longtime ago, what a selfish *******.

You might go out a time or two again. And that's it. Separate vacations, err, rather, vacations just for her and the kids (or just her and a friend or her Mom; maybe you'll pay for her Mom's cruise too.) Then it will seem like you are not the kind of guy that loves exploring the world, won't even go on vacation. When in truth, you'd love to go anywhere and do anything with a loving wife. You just don't have one, and you don't think you ever will.:sad:

Stop this from happening now, for the love of you, your kids, your wife, and all the good things that are *still* possible.

Btw, just for the record, my wife and I have been on "dates" just, hell, two or three times since daughter one was born -- that was 13.5 years ago!!!! We have never ever hired a baby sitter. I honestly wouldn't know where to find one. 

My wife and I are smart people (in SOME ways), and I was at least partly conscious that neglecting "us" at the time wasn't very smart. Yet I let it happen. And, so did she. 100% our fault. Karma, I guess. Or reaping what we sowed. But, sadly, our kids see the fallout daily in their parents' sad affects.

We lost years of pleasure and instead had years of pain, and we may have lost any hope for a future. She was my best friend, and I miss her; we did everything together before the kids, and then she shut me out (and she will say I shut her out). Damn, sounds like I need to start another thread of my own...


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> Dear OP,
> 
> I am sorry. And, I am frightened for you, your kids, and your wife. There are many many many similarities to how my wife seemed to me 13 years ago, and how I tried to cope.
> 
> ...


What I get from OPs post I see day in and day out on TAM. I do XYZ and never get paid back _in kind_. I ask really very little of my spouse and I expect that he/she "keeps up his/her end of the bargain". (I am not exempt from this by the way) This is a distorted way of thinking. Couples who really get the true honest value of what they do and what their partner does don't typically run into this problem and they don't get into fights where "you should do MORE". If she doesn't feel valued then she won't feel the value in what he does either. Stale mate.

OP has every right to feel the way he feels, of course, but let's face reality. There is a LOT of sucking it up that happens in even the most successful marriages. You really have three options in situations like these. You can leave. Seriously if this is truly your breaking point then leave. It's honest and there is _no_ shame in that. Option two is to work with your partner to resolve conflicts which necessitates shelving the "I am better than you because I do this and you do this" (which is a case of comparings apples and oranges usually anyway) and don't assume any malicious ulterior motives (like his wife doesn't value him or he doesn value her) or Option 3 Continue to feed into the circle of negativity until Option 1 is your only option with alot of unnecessary heartache in between.

The OP does alot of assuming and probably does a little exaggerating. Dishes once a month? How is that even realistic? Why would _he_ let the dishes pile up for a month if she was that bad? He made it a point to say that she never did HIS laundry which indicates either a there was a verbal agreement that he do his own laundry because she communicated that she was overwhelmed or she won't do his clothes because he doesn't even bother to put them where they belong. 

I think that if his wife posted here she would tell a vastly different story. I always take that into account when I am giving advice and trying help. I don't think that the OP is lying about anything but I also think that there are things that he might be unaware of or easy changes that can made without resulting in a power struggle. Just because his wife isn't here doesn't mean that we can't give her the benefit of the doubt.

Also, to the person who said "homemaker" I agree but as I said earlier homemakers weren't required to take out the trash, maintain the lawn, or repairs on the house either. There were no such things as playdates or soccer moms. Also homemakers lived in _communities_ with other homemakers, exchanged babysitting duties, decorating and cleaning tips (IN PERSON), recipes for great meals etc etc Mothers helped daughters when their babies were born and fathers were left out in the waiting room. Modern day homemakers don't have that same luxury. Look at OPs wife that lives away from friends and family and lacks even modern appliances to help with the daily chores.

Each household is different.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> How does one not listen to the plight of this husband and this behavior without having some form of judgement? Switch this around for a moment...*this is no different than a decent working man raising his family ....who sees the fall out of another MAN* *NOT taking responsibility for his family, fcking up on his job... can't hold a job, and his family suffers*... that said man can make all the excuses in the world, blaming his past, his parents, ignorance...depression, can't get along with anyone... but the fact remains... the family & marriage is suffering...
> 
> Unless DownTroddenHubby is exaggerating his story here... Let's take a stroll over what is happening here... his plight... Just imagine (women too, being in HIS SHOES for a moment)....


Considering he said in a later post that Fledgling nailed it, essentially saying the OPPOSITE of his initial post... I think he may very well be exaggerating how bad things are. But, like others, that is JMO.



SimplyAmorous said:


> *1.* He works full time , wakes up at 5am and gets home at 6:30pm (hour drive both ways)...she doesn't work outside the home...... She has 15 hours a week where the 15 month old gets day care... and a Play group on Thursdays.


My husband was working full time, hour drive each way, etc. Same as you just said. In my case, at that time, I had a 5 year old and a baby. I was at home as well. My MIL was there all day as well. Technically, one could say that I had the opportunity to have breaks from the kids. But in reality, I didn't. Sure, the OP's wife has the older child gone for 15 hours each week. But the 2 month old is not. So, she really does NOT get a break from kids. She is on the clock 24/7. That isn't meant as a complaint, merely an observation. One child gone, one still there. No break. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> *2. *She doesn't do his laundry, she only does the dishes -he says about once a [email protected]#$ Are you kidding me ?? , and she doesn't take out the trash. What IS the deal with women and trash collection...this has never bothered me, but it is such a contention with some. Had a friend who would get so angry over this , she would allow it to heap over in her kitchen just to Bi*ch at her husband claiming he didn't care if the kids ate out of the garbage....and I am thinking to myself... "well apparently you didn't either !"@#$


Dishes once a month, yea, I will concede that is disgusting. However, I suspect THAT is a big exaggeration. I don't take out the trash. Either my husband or my older son does. It is the ONE chore specifically assigned to my oldest son. However, if the weather is really bad, my husband takes it out...with no arguments. Why? Because was agreed upon between us that it would be his responsibility or that of our son, now that he is older/big enough to put it in the dumpster. And the laundry? Well, as far back as I can remember, my dad has done his own laundry. His preference. We have offered to do it for him, but he declines because he wants it done a certain way. So even THAT isn't such a big deal, IMO.



SimplyAmorous said:


> *3.* She thinks it's not fair that he goes to work & HE gets a certain amount of time off - even though he comes home.... feeds their 15 month old, gives her a bath, then puts her to bed...then gets to take over primary care for our 2 month old by feeding her, keeping a clean diaper on her & holding her till bedtime... Where the hell is HIS TIME OFF ? Read the next one...


As has been pointed out, she probably sees his time away from the home as his time off. That isn't an uncommon theme in many families where one spouse stays home with the kids. Because he was gone all day, my husband actually preferred being the one to feed the babies, once they were eating solids. So where was my husband's time off? As a parent of an infant/toddler, he HAD no time off. But he actually liked taking care of the kids.



SimplyAmorous said:


> *4. *He claims 1 hour a week on the computer - WOW !!! How many hours is she on there ?? Sounds like she gets LOADS of TV time -with the laptop on her lap on the weekends while he is cooking, doing laundry & taking care of these kids.
> 
> Not to mention he willingly (because he wants her happiness -even though nothing seems to bring it on)....plays the loving helpful husband -allowing her to sleep in till 10 -11 Am every Sat & Sun, gets the kids up -feeds them & keeps them entertained. When the hell does HE get to sleep in? Let's see, that is about 100 days she gets to sleep in and him... ZERO [email protected]#$ I wonder if she even gets up in the am for him before work -to help with his breakfast?


He CLAIMS to only get one hour on the computer each week. Sorry, but I still doubt that one. Even with the housework that my husband did to help me out, etc, he got more than one hour on the computer each week. It's actually quite easy to type with a baby in your arms, once you get used to it. Both my husband and I learned how to do that...quite well.

So, if he feeds both of them, then I would guess they bottlefeed... unless she also pumps so he can feed the baby. If the baby is only breasfed, then I call BS on him feeding them both while she sleeps in until 10 or 11am. Also, if she breastfeeds, I can attest to the fact that the baby is nearly always attached in the first couple months. They eat every two hours, on average. And that is measured from start to finish, not from finish to start. So, she is likely up nearly all day, everyday, if breastfeeding. (Can't say one way or the other because the OP hasn't confirmed one way or the other). And if OP sleeps anything like my husband did, then he sleeps right through those nighttime feedings. When does he sleep? Every night, during the week.



SimplyAmorous said:


> *5. * She refuses to have sex with HIM ... giving some sarcastic blaming remark such as this >>..."Why would we have sex you just to be physical and not wine and dine me? You don't make me feel sexy and I'm resentful about how we're living"... My thoughts on this.. well, I won't even go there ...let's just say ...My empathy is on this husband 100%


Uhhh I'd not want sex for the simple fact that it seems all he has to do is look at her and she's pregnant again. And she can't help if she feels that he just wants gratification. It's the last thing on her mind right now, so soon after having a baby. Again, this early on, it's NOT uncommon. Those of us who wanted sex within weeks after having a baby are the EXCEPTION, not the rule.Add to that her body image, after being stretched out for basically two years... she wants to feel sexy, not just "let's do this now"... I can't blame her for that. Most women feel the same way THIS SOON.



SimplyAmorous said:


> *6*. His words >>> "She's the kind of person that if given an ultimatum she'll do the worst thing she can do to hurt you and ignore it. She has a bit of a control issue and wouldn't respond to being told what to do. I'd rather not have her run off with my children overseas just to spite me because I demand respect or else." Lovely attitude this woman has.. I would NOT defend this.....


Ok, assuming that THIS is true about OP's wife... I'd take steps to ensure she couldn't take them out of the country without his written permission...and ONLY for specifically stated amounts of time, even then. Got to be a way to ensure this, even when married.



SimplyAmorous said:


> DowntroddenHubby seems to admit HE was aware of her attitude BEFORE....so he signed up for a woman of this sort of challenge... this is his fall out....he is now feeling the heat....
> 
> Sounds like you are determined to stick it out - God Bless you... I don't believe anyone here can help this situation... *Her attitude* has your hands tied behind your back, I'd like to say something else has been tied as well. .



As you stated... he knew how she was when he married her. Unfortunately, like many others, it seems he thought she would change after marriage. Now, he knows differently.


Now, IF the "bad" things he said aren't exaggerated in any way, then yes, he may be in the right. I do believe she is depressed, so hopefully he gets her to a doctor, very soon. However, knowing how things were when I had my babies, I'm not so sure he's NOT exaggerating, at least a tad. But, that's JMO.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Not to be a smart ass here, But I wasn't.... I had 2 c-sections within 11 months, was on top of the world, couldn't wait to have sex and got all my work done... (don't chew me out Maricha... I was a very happy MOM...thankful - after all those yrs of infertility, I'd climb a mountain - for the opportunity to go through all that pain.... (Those percocet pills - literally took my pain away once I got home.. till it wore off completely)...
> 
> At one time we had 4 kids under the age of 6, 2 in diapers (I used cloth, we didn't have a dryer by choice - hung them all on the line... never had a dishwasher (wouldn't want one either)... the most help I had was some wonderful ladies from church bringing us some meals... I was very thankful.. My husband told me I could have as many babies as I wanted ...*HIS CONDITION*..... so long as I took care of them & the house...... I held to that, never expected him to get up in the middle of the night -unless I was sick... I probably changed 95% of those diapers... I did all the cooking, dishes...every mundane task basically...
> 
> ...


I, too, was ecstatic about being a mom. There are 5 years between our first and second, and 22 months between second and third. I love being a mom. I breastfed them all. Yes, bottles would have probably been easier, but my husband and I agreed that breast was best and that's what we wanted for our kids. I'd do it again, if I could have more kids. I was given pain pills as well after my c-sections. I took them for about a week, and stopped because I wanted to be alert for my baby. My staples were taken out at 2 weeks post partum each time. I wanted sex at that point...each time. So, yea, I understand that aspect as well. But I also recognize the fact that not all women are like that. Just as I recognize the fact that not all women bounce back in other aspects, such as cleaning up, etc. I know some can, as you have stated yourself. However everyone I have personally met who has had c-sections, or even c-sections close to gether, has fallen into the same category as me. Obviously, there are some who are more like you. I just haven't met any IRL, so far. 

Anyway, I think I'm done with this thread. There's really not anything more I can add, when it seems (from my persepctive) that many are hellbent on making the wife look like a lazy b!tch. I think OP is exaggerating, tbh. But I also think his wife is probably suffering from PPD. THat needs to be checked, before anymore assumptions are made about her being lazy... again, JMO.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

OP has stated that they live in NZ away from her family in the states. It's not out of the realm of possibility that she feels very, very much alone especially when he is out of the house so much. Hence the talk of wanting to go home when things get rough. And when she says she can't stand living like "this" she's not just talking about just the mess.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> OP has stated that they live in NZ away from her family in the states. It's not out of the realm of possibility that she feels very, very much alone especially when he is out of the house so much. Hence the talk of wanting to go home when things get rough. And when she says she can't stand living like "this" she's not just talking about just the mess.


Agreed. We moved to Florida when the second one was just a baby. Third one was born in Florida. My MIL was there, but I still knew NO ONE else... MIL was ok... but she wasn't my mom. I felt isolated, and my husband UNDERSTOOD that... and did what he could to alleviate that feeling of isolation. And that was only 1200 miles from my family. I couldn't even imagine being as far away as the OP and his family are from family. Honestly, I don't think I could do it.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Agreed. We moved to Florida when the second one was just a baby. Third one was born in Florida. My MIL was there, but I still knew NO ONE else... MIL was ok... but she wasn't my mom. I felt isolated, and my husband UNDERSTOOD that... and did what he could to alleviate that feeling of isolation. And that was only 1200 miles from my family. I couldn't even imagine being as far away as the OP and his family are from family. Honestly, I don't think I could do it.


I understand completely. My husband'ss family and I are really close now but not so much when we first married. 1200 miles seems so far to me. I moved two hours away and you would be amazed at how even that small distance between family can drive a wedge between you when everyone lives such a busy life. Seriously a two hour drive one way necessitates a whole day out to visit someone for two or three hours. Even though I invited people to visit they just couldn't commit the time. And obviously I couldn't justify taking the baby out for that amount of time either...I don't consider myself anti-social but it was insanely difficult to develop new friendships...


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> As your W is a SAHM, by the time you get home in the evening all the housework should be done and dinner in the process of being prepared. After dinner, and on weekends / public holidays, any household tasks should be shared, but other than that, IMO, tending to the home etc is your W's job - period. If she isn't happy with that, then she should go out to work and you hire a babysitter and a cleaner. She can't have it both ways.


See how simple this is? 

Tens of millions of US couples are doing just this, pursuing either option. No drama. No yelling. No arguments over how hard their lives are. Just normal daily life.

Men and women a couple of generations ago were having six kids or more. No modern appliances. Washing cloth diapers by hand. Men breaking their backs in hard labor and dying of black lung disease. Women sewing clothes, not shopping online.

Sound advice cannot be given when people are pretending how hard two kids and a home are. Sheesh, we don't have a dishwasher and we cook/heat with a wood stove seven months of the year. We could make that out to be abject poverty but the fact is we think it's fun to live this way.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I'm flabergasted.

People are talking about OP as if he isn't even here. Damn it, this is his thread!

Do you think it is some sort of game, where you get points for trying prove his version of the facts is false? Maybe you intend well, and think it is necessary to discredit him and deny him his version of the situation, in order to defend his wife? If so, please consider it may make you feel better, but you are not going to help his wife by denying him a place to vent and seek help. If you want to, in effect, argue with him about his version of the facts -- well, if his spouse is like mine, or my spouse is like him, he gets plenty of that at home.

How would you feel if someone came by your thread and rammed your feelings and version of reality back down your throat?

His post was his post. His feelings were his feelings. His observations about the circumstances of his life are his. His observations may be spot on, or may be complete distortions of reality. And, I'm pretty sure he understands that. Why don't you?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I didn't read every post on this thread.. so I missed where Downtrodden_Hubby agreed with Fledgling ...I just gleamed what he said.. 

If people exaggerate, shame on them... I for one.. even though I sound like super woman at times....I am trying to keep it real... I would feel like CRAP & be very apologetic if I didn't have my house in order, cooked for my husband/ family... and did the things I personally feel are expected of me -having the *pure honor & privilege* to be able to stay at home...as many women can not. 

I just try to take what I read at face value....as the thread progresses, hopefully others can weed out the .. Since the DownTrodden has not returned...Maybe it was all BS [email protected]#$%^ 

Percocet never affected me... I purposely drink decaffeinated tea/ pepsi because I don't need the extra Pep ... God help me when I eat chocolate, I stay up half the night. I realize other women are not like this... but if her *attitude* is half of what he describes, I still feel for him....hey' it's just my opinion.. and you know what they say about those. 

Another I have is this...even if a new Mom isn't ready for PIV sex....(sure healing has to take place)...she can still do hand jobs to ensure her man is feeling loved & remembered. I will never agree just cause she had a baby, he is oblivion /forgotten, his needs not important.... that's wrong on her behalf to pick up that attitude...

Sure , being a good man, he should give her time, not be a horny Dog panting at her....but he isn't either - so I give him extra points here ...... IF she can breastfeed, she can grab his handle and give him a thrill every couple nights, doesn't take much to please a man....what 20 minutes every 48 hrs. 

So often when I read threads like this (I should likely stay out of them).....I thank the Heavens I am a woman..... I would have very very little patience with a wife like this... you can all shoot me through the screen... that's fine... Have a couple friends like this.... I feel the husband is being shafted...again, this is my personal observation. 

Not all women who won't do housework are sick.. My husbands Mother is a Hoarder...she'd beat any of those TV shows, she used to complain to me about his dad....took everything in me to NOT roll my eyes at her....I kept my mouth shut...to keep the peace. Though I guess this is a newer disorder... 

She never worked, didn't drive, he gave her anything she wanted- always taken care of...and yet she complained..... what did HE get in return.. a house full of junk ......kept it somewhat at bay till he died... she even managed to fill up his 3 stall garage to the darn ceiling. Very sad I say.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Sound advice cannot be given when people are pretending how hard two kids and a home are. Sheesh, we don't have a dishwasher and we cook/heat with a wood stove seven months of the year. We could make that out to be abject poverty but the fact is we think it's fun to live this way.


You're right. They're "pretending". How incredibly wise you must be to see that from so far away. I'd agree, the trouble with people struggling to cope with their circumstances is they just don't understand how you could do it better, and that you've been doing just fine with circumstances which obviously are much worse.

Let's say, for example, she has post-partum depression, or he is depressed, or her c-section has debilitated her than most. You're right, now that I think of it. The fact you use a wood stove makes that sort of difficulty pale in comparison.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I just try to take what I read at face value....as the thread progresses, hopefully others can weed out the ..


I am skeptical of everything claim anyone makes here. And, try to weed it out for myself. (EDIT: by that I mean in the privacy of my own mind or my own thread. Please see reply from me to wiseforit further down this thread.)

There is value in the truth, for sure. And, there is value in helping someone see truth that others may be unable to see because they are so enmeshed in their issue.

But, I fear some here (not you, necessarily, I just quickly skimmed what you just wrote) are overzealous to point out their own "version of the truth", and fail to understand their own blind-spots.



> Since the DownTrodden has not returned...Maybe it was all BS [email protected]#$%^


I think you are jumping to conclusions. And what's the point of that? I don't know. But, I don't think it helps anyone.

If I were him, I probably would have left *this thread of his* by now too. Not because "it was all BS", but because too many of the responses are insulting to him and attempts to validate their posters view of their own situation, by selfishly invalidating his.

Sad thing is, whether it was all BS or not, if he has indeed left, then that is not going to help anyone -- himself, his wife, or especially his kids. Could be, this was about the only chance anyone of them had to get through their issues, at their own pace.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

PieceOfSky said:


> Let's say, for example, she has post-partum depression, or he is depressed, or her c-section has debilitated her than most. You're right, now that I think of it. The fact you use a wood stove makes that sort of difficulty pale in comparison.


Maybe she has Post Partum which led to his depression.. then they both need to get help.. 

Postpartum Depression After C-Section



> I think you are jumping to conclusions. And what's the point of that? I don't know. But, I don't think it helps anyone.
> 
> If I were him, I probably would have left by now too. Not because "it was all BS", but because too many of the responses are insulting to him and attempts to validate their posters view of their own situation, by selfishly invalidating his.


 I basically said this to appease Maricha75- as she pointed out his "claims" with a disbelieving tone and possible exaggerations.... so I ran with that.. I do not believe most people see their own flaws...and often this does come out in the thread if the OP sticks around long enough....with some digging & back & forth. Which is all good. 



> Btw, your comment about HJ was quite refreshing in a way -- as I've had that same thought a thousand times in the last several years. But, I'm starting to believe the premise there is all wrong -- the problem has nothing to do with there being time or energy to provide a HJ experience, at least in my case. *Which means there is something more deeply troubling to my wife about me. It seems so obvious when I say it but I keep forgetting it.** But, I should take that to a different thread*.


 Sorry PieceOfSky, I am of the firm belief it IS these little things ....THAT keep us emotionally connected... our spirits up, push depression away....even when we may not be feeling like starting something.....the man many times is also Upping his Responsibility & time -just as the wife is....he is helping her more to soothe her...taking care of his wife & the babies...he needs something too!! 

Start your own thread ! Blunt does not bother me at all. I can be that very easily, I need to tame it at times. Wouldn't hold it against a soul. It's just our feelings. I want the truth of that... but yeah, it helps to be married to one who sees things in a very similar light. 

When someone is not thinking right, this throws a huge monkey wrench into the mix!


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Fledgling said:


> She is using television as escapism and denial. She gets no extra time with you, the house is a disaster, the kids are a handful, and she is probably a little post partum.
> 
> Dude you're an IT guy. I married an IT guy. It's almost universal that when you guys tune into a game you tune out to life. whether it be for an hour or ten hours. Sure you deserve some down time but she is pleading with you to understand her and help her. You may think you are doing that but you are not. Do you leave messes that she has to clean around? My husband is famous for leaving piles of stuff (read crap) all over my house that make it difficult nigh impossible to get the job done right. And if I can't do it just right I lose the will to do it at all sometimes. I make houserules. He breaks them. I try to get organized, he doesn't fall in line with the attempt. He promises that once something gets clean it will stay clean and yet it always winds up trashed. Does any of this sound familiar to you? Do you promise to do jobs that you really don't have the time or energy to commit to? Dude, changing a baby's nappy and getting them to bed on time is awesome but she needs you in a big way. Should she be being disrespectful? No. On the other hand if you are constantly justifying your behaviour and absolving yourself in any role you might play in your situation is it a wonder she has resorted to such tactics? Dude, this is where the dirty work begins. Help your wife.
> 
> ...


So the above was my original post. No where did I validate her leaving the house messy. I identified problem areas that he had _potential _control over. Things that he may not even be aware of. Often when you live in a messy house you just, well, get used to it to a certain extent until all of a sudden you look around and go, whoah?!. (Many IT guys leave their pet projects lying around which can interfere with many household tasks. For instance.) I even provided links that have helped my husband and I tremendously gain control over our house. Those links can help everyone in the house. Not just her. So why shouldn't he read them? 

It's only human nature to want to deny any role you may have, no matter how small, because it's a big job. Obviously his wife is in denial and using the TV/Computer as an escape. So the question is what is she escaping from? People seem to think she is just lazy and trying to escape personal responsibility because her husband is a doormat (which btw is an insult to him) The reality of a situation ANY situation is that it takes two people to manage things. Always. It doesn't matter if one person is MORE or LESS at fault. If there is some sort of marital problem that is effecting her motivation, why not work on that. If it's physical or mental then OP would benefit from extending true empathy rather than taking her to task and telling her to do more. 




Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> That does ring true...so how do you deal with it? Is there something specifically I can do? If you weren't a random internet stranger I'd accuse you of stalking me...


I bet one of the things that ring true is that he promises to help knowing full well that he doesn't have the time, energy, or desire and, secretly, thinking he shouldn't have to because it's her job or even that her request is plain ridiculous. But you know what? The promise is made. And then when he breaks the promise, guess what happens? She loses trust in him. Instead a better way to approach things is to find a way to get these household needs met in a manner that works well for both of them. Maybe he realized that his projects can get in the way? Need paper plates and throw away utensils to solve the dish problem? Do it. Better that than worrying about which one of them SHOULD BE doing it. Would adding a garbage disposal cut down on the trash problem? Or setting up a recycling center? Why not do it? Why entrench yourself on a side and thinking about what's "fair"? :scratchhead:

This problem isn't whether or not she's a witch or he is exagerrating/overreacting. (The reality is it's probably a little of both.) It's all about compromise, and sacrificing where/when you can without being resentful. It's about figuring out what level of chores are acceptable and which circumstances in the house can be changed for those things to be met.

It's about knowing where your break limit is and enforcing it in a kind and loving manner. It's about communicating needs or being a detective to see underlying issues and how you can help with those.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

All sounds good and reasonable Fledgling...really....I like the emphasis on *Empathy* and the *motivations* behind what she is doing, attacking it this way.... but as a woman who doesn't work outside the home (actually I do) I still feel she needs to do far more (if she is not sick that is)... that (to me) is FAIR... and this speaks to me... I do tend to weigh such things...

*But your way of tackling it --YES.. this IS better [email protected]#$* :smthumbup:

See why I'd make a horrible husband ! 

I really do LOVE to please my husband, but he is very giving...that makes it awfully easy.. it does have to start with someone.. although I don't always feel that both people are the problem...one's issues can destruct an entire marriage - where if their spouse was married to another GIVER... it would be a slice of cake. This I believe. Not saying this is the case here of course. 

Just doesn't sound like they were prepared for kids (I guess who is - huh?) .... beings it sucks every living moment out of them. Can't wrap my brain around that....Unless these 2 little beings are colicy cranky non stop monsters. :scratchhead:


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

I agree she needs to be doing more (especially as she regains her energy) but let's think of it this way: 

If OP was really doing his "fair shair" the house wouldn't be nearly in the absolutely dismal shape it apparently is. If his wife was working out of the home his fair share would go up from what it is now wouldn't it? Even though he would still be working/commuting 12 hours a day. So the direct correlation here is that her being at home is not equal in any way to his outside of the home job...does that make sense? Now I'm not saying that OP is deliberately not doing his "fair share". It's more likely that he just isn't aware of the level of involvement needed...or the things/haabits that can be changed with little or no extra effort on his part.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Another I have is this...even if a new Mom isn't ready for PIV sex....(sure healing has to take place)...she can still do hand jobs to ensure her man is feeling loved & remembered. I will never agree just cause she had a baby, he is oblivion /forgotten, his needs not important.... that's wrong on her behalf to pick up that attitude...
> 
> Sure , being a good man, he should give her time, not be a horny Dog panting at her....but he isn't either - so I give him extra points here ...... IF she can breastfeed, she can grab his handle and give him a thrill every couple nights, doesn't take much to please a man....what 20 minutes every 48 hrs.


If you mean all of these as far as early after having the baby, we'll have to agree to disagree. We obviously have differing opinions on this, but each works in our own marriages, which is all that matters. 

However, one thing that bothers me about what you said above regarding breastfeeding.... I fail to see the correlation between feeding a baby every two hours and giving her husband a HJ for 20 (or more in some cases) minutes. :scratchhead:
If the baby is anything like my kids, there's MAYBE a window of an hour before the next feeding... And the above mentioned 20 minutes has never been enough time for my husband and me.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

From another thread he posted in yesterday:


Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> I'm 28 she's 26 we have a two daughters under two. I do love her and wish she could be happy. We moved from the US to New Zealand so don't really have any friends or family to babysit.
> 
> I don't know why she's generally unhappy. She seems to have these moments of clarity too where I think she realizes her unhappiness makes me miserable (for more than one reason) and she'll be over the top happy and normal but that only ever lasts a day or two.
> 
> I can't ever seem to do anything right...


Maybe I'm wrong, but OP acknowledges that his wife tries, but it only lasts a couple days. Hopefully, he gets her to see the doctor to at least rule out PPD. After that, if it's not PPD, then MC, and maybe even IC.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Fledgling said:


> I agree she needs to be doing more (especially as she regains her energy) but let's think of it this way:
> 
> *If OP was really doing his "fair shair" the house wouldn't be nearly in the absolutely dismal shape it apparently is*.


 Well he was speaking out of 2 sides of his mouth then... and got caught, cause I seen in 2 places his saying he doesn't make any messes, even had her go out of town and the place was virtually the same when she got back... but then saying what you said rings true/ you could be an internet stalker... how you mentioned YOUR husband is known for leaving piles of stuff all over the house. Do we know if he was agreeing to THAT part ... I don't know. 



> If his wife was working out of the home his fair share would go up from what it is now wouldn't it?


 It would ! and this is why I feel an older fashioned lifestyle works very well for those who are stressed easily (as these 2 are and can't even handle THIS). If he can not afford to pay for hired help now, they won't with her working either...it will just add more chaos and less time for each other... 



> Even though he would still be working/commuting 12 hours a day. So the direct correlation here is that her being at home is not equal in any way to his outside of the home job...does that make sense?


 Can't say it makes sense to me, I think her life is easier, that's just my personal opinion...I wouldn't want to trade roles with my husband in any way , shape or form, as far as I am concerned, his day is much more stressful .. braving the weather, the traffic, co-workers, then he comes home to what needs FIXED that I can't do... I think a SAHM needs to pull her load, I just don't agree with the excuses.. He should praise her, she should praise him, they have 2 different roles to play..and they need to WORK them... and do it while the other is at work. Laundry, cooking, dishes caught up, house in decent order. 




> Now I'm not saying that OP is deliberately not doing his "fair share".


 I still feel he is doing beyond... It's a agree to disagree moment here. 



> It's more likely that he just isn't aware of the level of involvement needed...or the things/habits that can be changed with little or no extra effort on his part.


 Yes, new habits surely need to be found ...this is not working . He is going to get burnout/ on the brink...she always has it...


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Can't say it makes sense to me, I think her life is easier, that's just my personal opinion...I wouldn't want to trade roles with my husband in any way , shape or form, as far as I am concerned, his day is much more stressful .. braving the weather, the traffic, co-workers, then he comes home to what needs FIXED that I can't do... I think a SAHM needs to pull her load, I just don't agree with the excuses.. He should praise her, she should praise him, they have 2 different roles to play..and they need to WORK them... and do it while the other is at work. Laundry, cooking, dishes caught up, house in decent order.


It's all about perspective. My husband, once he was told by his doctor that he couldn't go back to work til they figured his head out, told me that he'd RATHER go to work (auto tech) because it was EASIER than what had to be done at home. Maybe that's why I get so frustrated when people say a SAHM's job is easy compared to anything else.... because it's not... and my own husband confirmed that to me himself. Some people don't have the patience/temperament for staying home. Some do. SA, you and I obviously CAN handle it easily... it appears that OP's wife cannot. It doesn't make her bad, nor a bad wife. It's just not her forte.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Maricha75 said:


> If you mean all of these as far as early after having the baby, we'll have to agree to disagree. We obviously have differing opinions on this, but each works in our own marriages, which is all that matters.


 The OP needs to take what works for HIM ...and throw out the rest, separate the wheat from the chaff...after all.... these are all just opinions of how we handle our own marriages..... I was giving him Kudos for not expecting sex... but at the same time felt a MINUS on her part .... could that lead to his feeling stressed, a little depressed .... I say YES! 

Of course he might be too tired in that situation...though if it's his way of dealing with stress, he's on his own, a  state when one is married. Too much of this, their connection grows colder, intimacy hanging by a thread . 



> However, one thing that bothers me about what you said above regarding breastfeeding.... I fail to see the correlation between feeding a baby every two hours and giving her husband a HJ for 20 (or more in some cases) minutes. :scratchhead:
> If the baby is anything like my kids, there's MAYBE a window of an hour before the next feeding... And the above mentioned 20 minutes has never been enough time for my husband and me.


When I put Breastfeeding and HJ's in the same sentence, I was assuming the baby sleeps for so many hours at different times .... 20 minutes was just a throw out #... for some men it only takes about 10 ~ Others maybe an hour. Some women breastfeed for a year plus.... surely you are not suggesting a husband should forgo the touch of his wife's pleasuring during this long time frame, even if not up for PIV sex..... I guess each woman feels as she feels....and the man is at her mercy in this. I was the one dying for it afterwards so he didn't have to worry about it, could never wait till the Doc's Ok...he wasn't complaining. 

Most men do not realize breastfeeding ZAPS her sex hormones, another thing for men to deal with....more of a disconnect so if her brain and empathy for his needs is not engaged purposely... he's got an awful long wait & will come off as purely a pest when the baby arrives. 



> Some people don't have the patience/temperament for staying home. Some do. SA, you and I obviously CAN handle it easily... it appears that OP's wife cannot. It doesn't make her bad, nor a bad wife. It's just not her forte.


 I agree with you....some women HATE IT ..... but I see this more about HAPPINESS and fulfillment, not the fact a woman who preferred working & was good at her job) couldn't handle getting mundane work done at home ( when she feels better/ back to herself )....she would likely be bored out of her mind doing it - and long to get back to work... but she could do it none the less, as this was her Place -during this time, so she makes the best of it . 



> Maybe that's why I get so frustrated when people say a SAHM's job is easy compared to anything else.... because it's not... and my own husband confirmed that to me himself.


 Just as you have your perspective, I have mine...  I don't want to have to worry or feel I should downplay how I feel it if may offend someone.. Ya know.. that's how I feel... To me -like I say, it's a pure pleasure & privilege to be ABLE to stay at home.... 

The best scenario all has to do with attitude -towards each other... The husband fully appreciates and respects all the work his wife does at home, the time , care & patience that she instills in her children & the house (of course it HELPS tremendously that this is being done - to have this effect)....he praises her, validates her.. .therefore she feels fulfilled and full of purpose (my husband gives me this, always has)

And likewise...the wife feels her husband is irreplaceable as the Breadwinner...meeting the needs of the family, she feels safe & secure in his protective care...she acknowledges his plight at work, listens to his day ,offers her encouragement and praise.. for his role... I can attest.... this is how we FEEL...and deeply... 

He loves his role as a man, I love mine as a woman.... we do all we can to make the others's life EASIER, more carefree ... that way... when he gets home (call me selfish here), I have MORE time to spend with [email protected]#$ And also time as a family....for us to enjoy this part of our parenting.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> When I put Breastfeeding and HJ's in the same sentence, I was assuming the baby sleeps for so many hours at different times .... 20 minutes was just a throw out #... for some men it only takes about 10 ~ Others maybe an hour. Some women breastfeed for a year plus.... surely you are not suggesting a husband should forgo the touch of his wife's pleasuring during this long time frame, even if not up for PIV sex..... I guess each woman feels as she feels....and the man is at her mercy in this. I was the one dying for it afterwards so he didn't have to worry about it, could never wait till the Doc's Ok...he wasn't complaining.


Oh no no no! Not a year! God no! I couldn't even wait the 6 weeks the doctors said when I had mine. Once the staples came out, we had sex. But it wasn't "vigorous" as one poster mentioned above. He was quite gentle for MONTHS afterward... because for a couple months I DID still have some pain... and he wanted to be sure I wouldn't ADD to that. And, of course, as the babies grow, they settle into a pattern of sleep that becomes more predictable. In the beginning, you have the "stolen" moments. But once they start sleeping longer and eating solids, etc, you have more time together... 



SimplyAmorous said:


> Most men do not realize breastfeeding ZAPS her sex hormones, another thing for men to deal with....more of a disconnect so if her brain and empathy for his needs is not engaged purposely... he's got an awful long wait & will come off as purely a pest when the baby arrives.


See, and I was totally opposite of this. I wanted sex all the time. My drive stayed upthe whole time I breastfed... and I went to roughly 1.5-2 years for each of mine! No way would I expect my husband to go without that whole time!


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> So the above was my original post. No where did I validate her leaving the house messy. I identified problem areas that he had _potential _control over. Things that he may not even be aware of. Often when you live in a messy house you just, well, get used to it to a certain extent until all of a sudden you look around and go, whoah?!. (Many IT guys leave their pet projects lying around which can interfere with many household tasks. For instance.) I even provided links that have helped my husband and I tremendously gain control over our house. Those links can help everyone in the house. Not just her. So why shouldn't he read them?
> 
> It's only human nature to want to deny any role you may have, no matter how small, because it's a big job. Obviously his wife is in denial and using the TV/Computer as an escape. So the question is what is she escaping from? People seem to think she is just lazy and trying to escape personal responsibility because her husband is a doormat (which btw is an insult to him) The reality of a situation ANY situation is that it takes two people to manage things. Always. It doesn't matter if one person is MORE or LESS at fault. If there is some sort of marital problem that is effecting her motivation, why not work on that. If it's physical or mental then OP would benefit from extending true empathy rather than taking her to task and telling her to do more.
> 
> ...


Well, I ordered the book because apparently I am doing it wrong. lol I admit that I come from a lineage of hoarders. My parents own rental houses and as they buy/build new ones, they move and leave half their stuff in the old house. They have 4 houses with stuff in it that is theirs, and that is not counting the house that they live in.

Also, because of this, I know more about building a house, than I do about cleaning a house. When my dad was building houses, we all went with him, including my mom, so the house we lived in was always messy and half-way complete.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

anony2 said:


> Well, I ordered the book because apparently I am doing it wrong. lol I admit that I come from a lineage of hoarders. My parents own rental houses and as they buy/build new ones, they move and leave half their stuff in the old house. They have 4 houses with stuff in it that is theirs, and that is not counting the house that they live in.
> 
> Also, because of this, I know more about building a house, than I do about cleaning a house. When my dad was building houses, we all went with him, including my mom, so the house we lived in was always messy and half-way complete.


Do you mind me saying I think that is very proactive of you to get this book Anony2... and try to tweek this in yourself... 

I am sure you & your family couldn't hold a candle to my Mother in Law.... Can I rant for a moment...

This is EXTREME....We are in the process of Moving her...you know how I describe this situation, it's like a nuclear Bomb hit her house and we have to clean it up...maybe 200 bonfires later we'll be done... I am talking here about 6 rooms full to the ceiling, not to mention the basement...and that garage (Thankfully we don't have to touch that). 

She barricaded the door to the upstairs...couldn't sleep on her bed and a path to the bathroom.... couldn't even find room to place a cup of tea on her kitchen table... I never wanted to visit... besides this, lovely lady, heart of Gold, good Mother. 

The Sister in law had a freaking melt down while I was trying to BAG junk upstairs.. to help the brother who is going to inherit this Disaster zone.. They can not even get a Estimate on this house for selling due to her Junk. 

IN my view, the Mom & sister need chained up somewhere while we get 30 Dumpsters to clean this disaster ..... And the MIL doesn't seem to appreciate this UNENDING relentless work it is to move her.... Just blows my mind. 

If one of my kids inherit this gene, well, they will have to surpress it ...cause they ain't using it in my house...SO far so good... Our daughter has been saying she loves to organize stuff.. which is something I always took pleasure in... so I am hoping it missed her! My husband took after his dad, from a family who could eat off the floor... ... funny how such opposites got together!! Such is life and love I guess. 

My MIL's house should have been condemned - sad to say... It's no wonder the Dad never wanted to be home -when he was alive, at least then it was confined to ROOMS they didn't use...he kept it at bay... it was the biggest contention in their marriage.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> I am skeptical of everything claim anyone makes here. And, try to weed it out for myself.


Hypocrisy much? You've been berating people for that very thing. 

Billions of couples have handled two kids (for her not even full time) without all this melodrama. 

You getting your panties in a bunch doesn't change that.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Hypocrisy much? You've been berating people for that very thing.
> 
> Billions of couples have handled two kids (for her not even full time) without all this melodrama.
> 
> You getting your panties in a bunch doesn't change that.


Let me clarify. I try to weed it out for myself in the privacy of my own thoughts or my own thread. OP deserves to have people, in his own thread, hear what he is saying without other people tell him he is lying, or that they could do it much better.

This thread has devolved into people trying to "justify" his pain isn't authentic and even that his words must be lies. I do find that unhelpful, disrespectful, and it makes me angry. If you feel I've berated you, maybe you can just dismiss me as another case of someone being all melodramatic.

I'm happy billions if folks have happiness without melodrama. If my panties being in a bunch bothers you, trust me, I'm trying to work 'em out, though I'm worried I'm starting to enjoy it just a little too much


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## Downtrodden_Hubby (Apr 10, 2013)

*I added an update to my original post*


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> *UPDATE*
> Well I thought I'd come back here and post an update. As bad as some of the post here were there was a lot of helpful people and posts. My situation has become better if albeit a bit more confusing to me.
> 
> I decided that I wasn't going to rely on her to clean up the house as it was disaster and took it upon myself to get it clean. For about a week straight I miserably stayed up late and cleaned getting about 3-4hrs sleep a night and still getting up to take care of my toddler when she wakes up once or twice a night.
> ...


I'll be honest... Not exactly what I was expecting for an update! It MAY be that she started because she saw how miserable you were. But it may also be that she is coming out of her "baby blues"/depression. Not sure, really. Or, maybe she talked to one of her friends from the playgroup and they snapped her out of it. 

Tbh, this isn't the method I would have used, but it seems to have worked so far. I hope, for your sake and for the kids, that it continues.


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## Downtrodden_Hubby (Apr 10, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> I'll be honest... Not exactly what I was expecting for an update! It MAY be that she started because she saw how miserable you were. But it may also be that she is coming out of her "baby blues"/depression. Not sure, really. Or, maybe she talked to one of her friends from the playgroup and they snapped her out of it.
> 
> Tbh, this isn't the method I would have used, but it seems to have worked so far. I hope, for your sake and for the kids, that it continues.


It wasn't really me trying to fix the issue. It was more of me wanting us not to live in filth and giving her time to recover and get back to normal. 

I hope it stays this way but it's really confusing to me. I don't know why she just sat on the couch and watched tv or was on the computer most of the time and now it's different. She's even managed to have dinner ready by the time I'm home or within 30 mins of me being home 4/5 this past work week. (I do the weekend meals unless she wants to cook and I look after the kids so she gets a break from them)


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Maybe she feels less overwhelmed now that you did the stuff that had been building up. It's easier to maintain a clean house once it's been done. And maybe she appreciates your help and feels less alone.


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## Downtrodden_Hubby (Apr 10, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Maybe she feels less overwhelmed now that you did the stuff that had been building up. It's easier to maintain a clean house once it's been done. And maybe she appreciates your help and feels less alone.


I'd like to agree but she wasn't ever this helpful before. We've lived together since 2005 now...this is definitely a different behaviour for her.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

That's a very nice update! I hope she keeps it up! 

It will get easier to keep up the house once the children are older. Especially once they grow out of the "toy" stage. The kids should be involved with the cleaning by then as well.

Good luck.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> I'd like to agree but she wasn't ever this helpful before. We've lived together since 2005 now...this is definitely a different behaviour for her.


Has she had any recent checkups with her doctor or anything? If so, maybe this was discussed and maybe she is on antidepressants. Don't go rummaging though her stuff looking though! LOL But it MIGHT be one explanation....


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> *UPDATE*
> Well I thought I'd come back here and post an update. As bad as some of the post here were there was a lot of helpful people and posts. My situation has become better if albeit a bit more confusing to me.
> 
> I decided that I wasn't going to rely on her to clean up the house as it was disaster and took it upon myself to get it clean. For about a week straight I miserably stayed up late and cleaned getting about 3-4hrs sleep a night and still getting up to take care of my toddler when she wakes up once or twice a night.
> ...


She said that you didn't help enough, right? It sounds to me that she might be seeing you put in effort and is now ready to help because she sees commitment on your part. I doubt it's _because_ she sees that you are "miserable" more likely she was encouraged to see you doing something _despite_ being miserable.

Also I would say don't psychoanalyze the change. If this pattern keeps up (which is looking good) you can be proud of yourself for taking charge without getting into yet another round of blame. Does it stink that you were miserable the entire time? Yep. Was it fair that you had to be the first to take a positive action? Sure. But she reciprocated and that's huge. 

I can't tell you how happy I am to see these kinds of updates. :smthumbup: I think you handled things perfectly and remember toddlers grow quick and that they will be able to help soon too. 

I hope now that this cloud of housework has lifted at least temporarily you two can focus on getting closer. Seriously, I want to hug you right now, I am so happy for you.


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## Downtrodden_Hubby (Apr 10, 2013)

Fledgling said:


> She said that you didn't help enough, right? It sounds to me that she might be seeing you put in effort and is now ready to help because she sees commitment on your part. I doubt it's _because_ she sees that you are "miserable" more likely she was encouraged to see you doing something _despite_ being miserable.
> 
> Also I would say don't psychoanalyze the change. If this pattern keeps up (which is looking good) you can be proud of yourself for taking charge without getting into yet another round of blame. Does it stink that you were miserable the entire time? Yep. Was it fair that you had to be the first to take a positive action? Sure. But she reciprocated and that's huge.
> 
> ...


Thanks! 

Things are getting better but now she's on this pity party trip about how she's terrible and I don't like her because she's making me miserable and how she's such a bad mom because the house isn't spotless and our kids watch television...

She interacts with the kids a lot during the day. I don't see a problem if they watch one or two kid movies and the house is a work in progress. I'm not sure how to pull her out of this funk. I've tried to tell her how I feel but she doesn't believe me.

It started when she woke me up 2hrs before I normally get up for cooking breakfast for our eldest and getting ready for work to take care of our youngest daughter (now 3 months old) and she says I was angry and I resent her for doing it. 

I tried to tell her sorry and that I wasn't angry at her but rather not happy about having to get up at 3:00am in general. I mean, who's going to be in a bubbly chipper mood at 3am with a crying baby? Again she doesn't believe me and somehow turns into a big argument about how I don't make her feel happy enough and I just feel like she's angry at me all the time...

Ugh...I'm terrible enough with people in general but I really don't get women. T_T

She says I don't care because I could go be a hobo living in a cardboard box and still be happy. Well...yes I quite think I could because I try to make the best of the situation and being angry, sad, and/or resentful isn't going to help the situation or change it.


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## PrettyHappyOverall (Apr 19, 2013)

Well........
First of all, good job sticking it through. It seems most people nowadays run into a rough patch and just call it quits.
I am in a similar situation, but in my case I realized a few things. My wife is unhappy in general, and I think it has nothing to do with the usual suspects; I think it is something that only a shrink would be able to figure out. Nevertheless, she is a phenomenal mother, a fantastic teacher (we homeschool), and the yin to my yang. When I took some time to think about it, I realized that I was expecting a bit too much from her. I'm sure you realize by now that watching kids is a full-time job in itself. So, I told her we were going to get a maid every other week to help out. She went into overdrive and got a good chunk of the house in shape, but I am still going to do it just to take some of the stress off her. She deserves it.
She occasionally gets to the point of a near-breakdown, and in the past has been given lorazepam. It seems to help. I'm not advocating medication, I hate the stuff, but it DOES help in some situations.
If you can talk her into seeing a shrink, I bet you'd be surprised at the results. It might not hurt to see one yourself. It's like talking to an impartial stranger with a degree in brains. Whatever you do, don't give up. That is the easy way. Just keep in mind you married her for a reason.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> I hope it stays this way but it's really confusing to me. I don't know why she just sat on the couch and watched tv or was on the computer most of the time and now it's different. She's even managed to have dinner ready by the time I'm home or within 30 mins of me being home 4/5 this past work week. (I do the weekend meals unless she wants to cook and I look after the kids so she gets a break from them)


Well, since you seem to have accepted your second job as your wife's butler without complaining to her, she's happier and more willing to do a little work herself. At least in the short-term. It's a win/win.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> It started when she woke me up 2hrs before I normally get up for cooking breakfast for our eldest and getting ready for work to take care of our youngest daughter (now 3 months old) and she says I was angry and I resent her for doing it.
> 
> I tried to tell her sorry and that I wasn't angry at her but rather not happy about having to get up at 3:00am in general. I mean, who's going to be in a bubbly chipper mood at 3am with a crying baby? Again she doesn't believe me and somehow turns into a big argument about how I don't make her feel happy enough and I just feel like she's angry at me all the time...


This is how sh!t tests work. Since your wife was sh!t testing you before you ever had children, I will assume that she doesn't have clinical depression. I'll assume that she's just back to her sh!t testing ways.

See, unbelievable was right. Women like strong men who can handle themselves and their families in a crisis. The problem is, they don't want to just wait for a crisis to come along and watch the result. So, they manufacture some drama to see how you handle it. And when you handle it by accepting whatever unreasonable demands your wife makes of you, then it makes her depressed and angry that you can't stand up for yourself.

Of course, if you don't want to stand up for yourself, then I recommend you have a better attitude the next time your wife wakes you up in the middle of the night to take care of your children. Use it as a good opportunity to get an early start on the day. You can probably do a few loads of laundry for your wife before you have to leave for work.

Good luck.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Downtrodden_Hubby said:


> It started when she woke me up 2hrs before I normally get up for cooking breakfast for our eldest and getting ready for work to take care of our youngest daughter (now 3 months old) and she says I was angry and I resent her for doing it.
> 
> I tried to tell her sorry and that I wasn't angry at her but rather not happy about having to get up at 3:00am in general. I mean, who's going to be in a bubbly chipper mood at 3am with a crying baby? Again she doesn't believe me and somehow turns into a big argument about how I don't make her feel happy enough and I just feel like she's angry at me all the time...


I am at a loss. She stays at home with the kids, but you have to get up at night to care for them? Is this usual? Because if it is not, then she has got quite the lifestyle there. You do all the house work, do the cooking, let her sleep while you take care of a baby at 3 am, while also going to work to earn the money that allows you all to live. Plus she has you apologizing for not being thrilled about this arrangement. She sure has it nice.

So you now want to add to that the responsibility to pull her our of her supposed pity party? I want to know how you have that level of energy?


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

Didn't read the whole thread, but she might have started cleaning because she felt guilty when you started doing all of it. Odds are it won't last.

PHTlump is likely on target, she definitely sounds like a sh!t tester and doing all this work definitely makes you seem like a pushover; but guilt might explain her sudden help cleaning.

I especially like the pity party. When someone tells me they've been a bad this or that for what they do... I tell them, "Okay, so stop doing that." Otherwise they're really saying they want to be this bad thing... and they just want you to think they feel bad about it so you don't recognize their total disregard. Its a manipulative tactic. You end up comforting them for their being sh*tty. Really cracks you up when you start recognizing it.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

DTH, I think I can see why you are having some issues. In a way I sorta agree with those who are saying you aren't setting enough clear boundaries. For instance in your original post you said that your wife did't do housework and let the kids watch TV/Movies all day. Now you don't mind them watching movies as long as houswork is getting done? So the issue really isn't the kids watching TV or not getting enough quality time with Mom. It's all about the housework. It seems to me, however, that the kids definately shouldn't be watching as much TV and it is something that bothers both you and your wife. Try to come up with solutions to the TV situation. A mother's helper to play with the little ones? A MOPS group? Library visits? A mother's helper not named Dad? 

Also to the "pity party" thing. Are you really meaning to say that you haven't had a mini-pity party here? You have felt very put upon by your wife and with some good reason. I suspect much to be the same of her. You do bear resentment toward her, this thread is a testament toward that. She is just showing you that she feels that resentment. What is her reason for getting you up at 3am?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Fledgling said:


> Also to the "pity party" thing. Are you really meaning to say that you haven't had a mini-pity party here? You have felt very put upon by your wife and with some good reason. I suspect much to be the same of her. You do bear resentment toward her, this thread is a testament toward that. She is just showing you that she feels that resentment. What is her reason for getting you up at 3am?


I think discerning between justified self-pity and unjustified self-pity is important. DTH is depressed because his wife doesn't pull her own weight and she expects him to work a full-time job and then come home to be her butler. His wife is depressed because (she claims) that there just aren't enough hours in the day to change diapers AND run the vacuum cleaner. One person is justified and the other isn't.

Now, I suspect that the ACTUAL cause of DTH's wife's depression isn't that she can't possibly feed two kids and maintain the house. I suspect that it's because she married a butler. Most little girls don't dream of growing up and marrying butlers. So it's understandable that she's not excited about her life.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

Downtrodden_Hubby,

I can't believe you're still floundering around trying to figure this out a full week after you were given the answer.

@unbelieveable explained the dynamics of what is going on in this post: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/71241-housework-2.html#post1605863 .

I expanded on his post here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/71241-housework-3.html#post1607402 .

Are you not reading the posts? Are you selectively ignoring the advice you don't like?

This is simply a sh!t test that has gotten out of hand--nothing more and nothing less.

Stop focusing on the housework; it's only a symptom of the underlying problem. Start focusing on why your wife needs to sh!t test you and how you let it get soooo out of hand.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> I think discerning between justified self-pity and unjustified self-pity is important. DTH is depressed because his wife doesn't pull her own weight and she expects him to work a full-time job and then come home to be her butler. His wife is depressed because (she claims) that there just aren't enough hours in the day to change diapers AND run the vacuum cleaner. One person is justified and the other isn't.
> 
> Now, I suspect that the ACTUAL cause of DTH's wife's depression isn't that she can't possibly feed two kids and maintain the house. I suspect that it's because she married a butler. Most little girls don't dream of growing up and marrying butlers. So it's understandable that she's not excited about her life.


She didn't marry a butler. If she had the house wouldn't have gotten to be the way that it is. There are alot of men who are absolutely anal about cleanliness. I don't suspect that DTH is like this at all otherwise the house wouldn't have been in the state that it is already in. My guess is that they both have a tolerance for messiness until it gets out of hand and then they freak out. Alot of people are like this.

As to justified/unjustified pity. This is a extremely one sided story. There is no man on the face of the planet who is so perfect that his wife actively hates him for it, imho What DTH seems to understand is that he can live in a "filthy" home or not, regardless of what his wife does or does not do. So he sucked it up and he cleaned his house. Whatever his wife's feelings on why he did what he did (guilt or reciprocation) the end result was a clean (er) house that they can both enjoy. Neither of them went into this with a willing heart so to claim that one or the other is "more justified" is a fruitless waste of time unless ultimately they get a divorce. What needs to be done is to work on a way to make the change a permanent one.

DTH, you can look back on your marriage and see patterns of negative behaviours. The trick is to evaluate if things can change (your wife has shown a willingness and a capability to do so) now you have to release those years of frustration and move forward. Your wife is going to be resistent to this at first because it is new. The trick is knowing when indeed it is a pity party and when she has an actual need you can work to address. You need to be aware of this tendency in yourself as well. Know when you are venting and know when there is problem that you need to address. Don't create a fake problem in reponse to her fake problem. 

Please read His Needs Her Needs or even the 5 Love Languages.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Fledgling said:


> She didn't marry a butler. If she had the house wouldn't have gotten to be the way that it is.


I didn't say that DTH is the world's greatest butler. He's just a butler. When he and his wife are together, he is serving her. That's what butlers do. His wife doesn't have to pull her own weight in the marriage. She has a butler for that.



> There is no man on the face of the planet who is so perfect that his wife actively hates him for it, imho


You're right. Women don't usually hate their husbands for being perfect. They hate them for being weak.



> What DTH seems to understand is that he can live in a "filthy" home or not, regardless of what his wife does or does not do. So he sucked it up and he cleaned his house. Whatever his wife's feelings on why he did what he did (guilt or reciprocation) the end result was a clean (er) house that they can both enjoy.


Well, that's always true. Any spouse, husband or wife, can simply become the servant of the other. And the end result, if one spouse was refusing to pull his weight, will always be that more gets done. But that's not an effective strategy for a strong relationship.

Most successful relationships have two people actively contributing. And neither person takes the other for granted. I don't think anyone would measure the strength of their relationship by how much laundry gets done or how clean the kitchen is.



> Neither of them went into this with a willing heart so to claim that one or the other is "more justified" is a fruitless waste of time unless ultimately they get a divorce. What needs to be done is to work on a way to make the change a permanent one.


Not at all. Often, the best strategy for getting to a successful relationship is for one party to stand up for himself and stop letting the other party take advantage of him. In that case, it is absolutely necessary that he wake up and recognize that he is being taken advantage of. I think this is one of those times.

DTH should go to Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits. and learn how to better stand up for himself.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> I didn't say that DTH is the world's greatest butler. He's just a butler. When he and his wife are together, he is serving her. That's what butlers do. His wife doesn't have to pull her own weight in the marriage. She has a butler for that.
> 
> 
> You're right. Women don't usually hate their husbands for being perfect. They hate them for being weak.
> ...


This post is just...*shakes head ruefully* 

DTH, you are learning how it is to walk a fine path. You could stick up for yourself (and run the risk of being called selfish or a bully), you could put your spouse first (and run the risk of being seen as weak or a doormat). You need to determine in your own marriage what setting a boundary looks and feels like and what to do if that boundary is crossed. How much mess is okay and how much are you willing to contribute to get it that way? With the children how much can you reasonably do with and for them considering your other responsibilities? How can either of you negotiate and come to a harmonious agreement when you don't have realistic expectations of one another? Husbands are often expected "just to know" the ins and outs of how their wife thinks. But in truth the husband often expects the same from his wife who is not a mind reader either. There are some things that you'll never be able to negotiate peacefully. What are those things .

_*God give me the Strength to accept the things I can not change
The Courage to change the things I can
And the Wisdom to know the difference.*_


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## Cora28 (Apr 30, 2013)

Apologies as I havent read all the posts but, OP, from your first post and the update it sounds as if your wife misses working and possibly envies the fact you get adult contact and conversation and mental stimulation. I also suspect she dreams of having some time to herself. I know I did.

Regarding you helping her out and then she started helping you shows that she appreciates what you are doing. I wish my H did some housework. He does absolutely nothing at all. I do all the cooking (except he gets his dinner as lunch is our main meal), food shopping, child care and housework alone AND I work part time. He wants me to work more, actually which makes me laugh.

Now you have shown her how to help her, she needs to see how to help you. I think she´s being a little self-centred to be honest. Please, if you havent already, sit her down and draw up a list of jobs you should each do. 

Also, have you got the option to send your kids to nursery at all?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Fledgling said:


> This post is just...*shakes head ruefully*


I know the feeling. It's sad when people are so invested in the feminine imperative that suggesting that a husband who works 12 hours a day shouldn't be obligated to come home and relieve his wife of all the duties she's been shirking is met with hostility and rueful disbelief.

Frankly, I think it's misogynist. To argue that a man working a 60 hour week is burdened less than a woman who cares for two children and does little housework is insulting to the woman. The women I know are capable of much more than the OP's wife is accomplishing.



> DTH, you are learning how it is to walk a fine path. You could stick up for yourself (and run the risk of being called selfish or a bully), you could put your spouse first (and run the risk of being seen as weak or a doormat).


It is a balancing act. And he does need to balance his behaviors so that his wife sees him as being both supportive and strong. But, so far, he has no strength that I see. That's what he needs to add.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

I am not interested in misogynist vs chauvinist debate which is why I am not going there. I think using such broad strokes to cover someone's individual problem is pointless and fruitless. Everyone go to your corners and wait for the bell to ring. I know alot of people who are organized, disorganized, messy, neat and all shades in between and they meet with various degress of success based on individul factors. 

I also think that a balancing act is also rooted in an individual relationship based on personalities involved. 

DTH, is it possible that your wife simply feels lonely? You work long hours and she may feel disconnected from you. When she tries to label that feeling she may look to the house to provide a reason for you to be home and spend time with her and the kids. I know several wives who feel horrible if they complain that their husband works too much because the husband will get indignant. 

All marriages have problems. Are there other ways that you and your wife can connect?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Fledgling said:


> DTH, is it possible that your wife simply feels lonely? You work long hours and she may feel disconnected from you. When she tries to label that feeling she may look to the house to provide a reason for you to be home and spend time with her and the kids. I know several wives who feel horrible if they complain that their husband works too much because the husband will get indignant.


Out of curiosity, is there anything wrong in this scenario that can't be tied back to the husband? I understand that he is not perfect, and certainly don't doubt that he needs to improve. Does she have any ownership of any type, or is it all him?

_Edit_ - In fairness, perhaps that is not what you are intending, but your posts seem to suggest that anything wrong is traced back to him. Certainly something things are due to him. But I can't remove her from the equations, nor tie all her bad behavior back to his earlier bad acts.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

*sigh*

You can only do what you can do. DTH is not going to force his wife to do anything. She has responsibilities towards him _but he can't make her live up to his expectations_. IMHO there are power plays going on. Maybe she is trying to force him to do things her way and he is resisting. So why would he think the same tactic will work on her in the reverse? A boundary, however, isn't a powerplay. It just something that is. 

Secondly, DTH is confused as to how her mind works. I am giving him some possible insights. I could be completely off base. But if he tries it and finally hits a limit to his patience he will truly know that he indeed tried everything. And not the everything that that he thinks is logical as a man but what may be logical to alot of women as well.

Thirdly, I get that their marriage is very strained right now. What on earth could be wrong with increasing affection in their lives? With trying to re-establish an emotional bond on a daily basis. It may prove to put things into perspective for both of them. It is true that negative actions (long hours at work/no home chores being done) take a negative toll on a marriage. It is also true that loving quality time with your spouse equally improves one's marriage.

Fourthly, DTH has said that his wife has had these tendencies through out their whole marriage. Why was he able to tolerate it more then but not now? Maybe having kids changed his perspective? How can he reintegrate his old life with his new?

Fifthly, no matter what DTH decides to do he will have to shoulder that responsibility alone. Always. That is the way of life. If he wants to be "strong" or "teach her a lesson" he will have to learn how to do that on his own and suffer the ramifications of that on his own. 

Sixthly (?), Marriages always take two to work at maximum efficiency but I have yet to see a marriage where it's at it's maximum efficiency 100% of the time.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Fledgling said:


> *sigh*
> 
> You can only do what you can do. DTH is not going to force his wife to do anything. She has responsibilities towards him _but he can't make her live up to his expectations_. IMHO there are power plays going on. Maybe she is trying to force him to do things her way and he is resisting. So why would he think the same tactic will work on her in the reverse? A boundary, however, isn't a powerplay. It just something that is.
> 
> ...


I don't necessarily disagree with any of this, though I am not crazy about trying to nice her into actually participating in the marriage. But none of your posts seem to recognize that parts of the problem may very well lie with her. Any failings of hers that you do mention you then link back to his poor behavior. 

Yes, he is here and advice on how he can change his actions is necessary. But sometimes, the best advise is holding your spouse accountable for their actions (or lack thereof). I don't see that in you advice. Rather, I see that he is to be accountable for both his behavior and hers.

Finally, I think that the word "sixthly" is perfectly acceptable (even if spell check disagrees).


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Fledgling said:


> I am not interested in misogynist vs chauvinist debate which is why I am not going there.


Fair enough. Maybe I'm too sensitive. But I have a wife and a daughter. And I don't like it when people suggest that a woman can't possibly be expected to pull her own weight in the world. My wife does and I will expect my daughter to, as well.



> I think using such broad strokes to cover someone's individual problem is pointless and fruitless.


When you have a problem, you have to start broad and then work your way down to specifics. So I think broad strokes can be very valuable.

For example, I don't think the statement that a husband and a wife should both pull their own weight is an overly broad and fruitless statement. I think it is an inarguable statement. When one spouse isn't pulling his, or her, weight, then you have to start there.



> I also think that a balancing act is also rooted in an individual relationship based on personalities involved.


Sure. The actual balance of support and strength will be a unique formula. But the ingredients aren't unique. DTH can't get by with no strength and all support. Maybe he needs a 50/50 mix. Maybe its' 60/40 one way or the other. But he needs both.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

How would you suggest he "hold her accountable"? Blackmail? Do this or else? Or else what? Whatever his boundary is he has to own it and be comfortable with it. If the "or else" is divorce is he really comfortable with that? Now he doesn't even understand what she expects of him much. But she must magically understand what he expects and needs? Right now it is my opinion that he is sending her mixed signals. I see alot on TAM where people say they can't do something when the actuality of it is that they won't or feel they shouldn't have too. DTH proved that by picking up the house even though he thought he was already doing his fair share. The same could be said of the wife. Whatever reason she has for not doing what needs to be done the fact that she eventually found the time to help him means that there is no reason she can't be doing these things either. 

Look, DTH goes to work everyday and provides for his family. He helps around the house, and he helps with the kids. All of this DESPITE his wife's dismal behaviour. Why does he do this? Because it is what a good husband does. So why then does he get to pick and choose the other parts of being a good husband based on _her_ behaviour? 

Does a good husband issue ultimatums to try to bully his spouse to do what he wants? Is that what accounatability means? A boundary is different from an ultimatum because you are good with the result of a boundary. It doesn't erode your self-esteem or batter your ethics. However, an ultimatum or "holding someone accountable" tries to force THEM responsible for YOUR decisions or actions and gives them power over you.

Also, you know, his wife isn't here. And while I believe that there are some seriously selfish and narcissitic people in the world most people are just making it up as they go along and doing the best they can. I give that benefit of the doubt to DTH and his wife because he loves his wife and he loves his kids. Which means that there is something lovable about her even if things appear strained or a bit dysfunctional. 

And yes, sixthly, should be a word. I think I can add it to my word processors dictionary right? LOL


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Fledgling said:


> How would you suggest he "hold her accountable"? Blackmail? Do this or else? Or else what?


There are many options for him besides the ridiculous. For example, he could refuse to be her butler. Also, he could find something she cares about and make it contingent on her doing her part in the marriage. For example, she seems to prefer wasting time online over maintaining the house. He could cancel their internet until she is pulling her weight in the relationship.

He's really not as powerless to influence his wife's behavior as you seem to believe he is.



> Now he doesn't even understand what she expects of him much. But she must magically understand what he expects and needs?


Not at all. He should communicate his expectations clearly to her. He has said that they have had many conversations about the topic, so it's likely that he has. However, he should have another conversation where he is explicit about his expectations.



> Right now it is my opinion that he is sending her mixed signals. I see alot on TAM where people say they can't do something when the actuality of it is that they won't or feel they shouldn't have too. DTH proved that by picking up the house even though he thought he was already doing his fair share. The same could be said of the wife. Whatever reason she has for not doing what needs to be done the fact that she eventually found the time to help him means that there is no reason she can't be doing these things either.


You are correct that they both could do more. But we're really not discussing whether it is physically possible to do more. If DTH is willing to get 4 hours of sleep every night, he could do his job and his wife's. The point is that it's not reasonable for him to have to do it when his wife is fully capable of doing her job.



> Look, DTH goes to work everyday and provides for his family. He helps around the house, and he helps with the kids. All of this DESPITE his wife's dismal behaviour. Why does he do this? Because it is what a good husband does. So why then does he get to pick and choose the other parts of being a good husband based on _her_ behaviour?


I have a different definition of "good husband" than you do. A good husband is not his wife's butler.

And husbands can choose to make marriage a reciprocal agreement because that's exactly what marriage is. DTH is not asking for permission to redefine marriage into a mutually beneficial arrangement. Marriage has always been, or at least was always supposed to be, a mutually beneficial arrangement. What is radical is your contention that women are under no obligation to benefit their husbands in a marriage.



> Does a good husband issue ultimatums to try to bully his spouse to do what he wants? Is that what accounatability means? A boundary is different from an ultimatum because you are good with the result of a boundary. It doesn't erode your self-esteem or batter your ethics. However, an ultimatum or "holding someone accountable" tries to force THEM responsible for YOUR decisions or actions and gives them power over you.


Not at all. Good husbands refuse to be bullied. Good husbands refuse to be doormats. Good husbands refuse to be butlers. Refusing to be someone's butler doesn't give them power over you. The opposite is actually true. When you are someone's butler, that person has power over you. Husbands who are also butlers should take that power back.



> Also, you know, his wife isn't here. And while I believe that there are some seriously selfish and narcissitic people in the world most people are just making it up as they go along and doing the best they can. I give that benefit of the doubt to DTH and his wife because he loves his wife and he loves his kids. Which means that there is something lovable about her even if things appear strained or a bit dysfunctional.


I agree. I'm assuming that DTH's reports of her behavior are fairly accurate. But I'm also assuming that she's not a monster. Most likely, she simply incrementally treated DTH worse and worse because he allowed her to. He didn't have boundaries.

I think it is likely that, if he stops allowing her to mistreat him and insists that she start pulling her weight in the marriage, she will.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> There are many options for him besides the ridiculous. For example, he could refuse to be her butler. Also, he could find something she cares about and make it contingent on her doing her part in the marriage. For example, she seems to prefer wasting time online over maintaining the house. He could cancel their internet until she is pulling her weight in the relationship.
> 
> He's really not as powerless to influence his wife's behavior as you seem to believe he is.
> 
> ...


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Fledgling said:


> This is treating her like a child. Maybe she deserves being treated like a child but does he deserve to act like a parent with his own wife? Look through out TAM and you can see various posters of both genders hating the fact that they feel like they are raising another child. This can only breed resentment and can lead down the short road to becoming abusive and controlling. He is powerless to CONTROL his wife's behaviour. He is not powerless to INFLUENCE it through communication.


In the short term, he may have to treat her like a child. That is unfortunate. And he shouldn't have to do it. However, I'm assuming he doesn't have a time machine so that he can go back and not marry her. So he's stuck. He's stuck with a wife that acts like a child. And he understandably resents her for it.

I agree with you that he can't control her behavior. And I agree that he can influence her behavior. That's my I used the word "influence" in my post. Basic behavior modification works on children, adults, and even animals. That's part of what he needs to do with his wife. Stop rewarding bad behavior. Incentivize good behavior and disincentivize bad behavior.



> And what if she says that his expectations are unrealistic, which seems to be what she has been saying? Then what? He does bear some responsiblity to keep his expectations of her reasonable. To be sure I do not think he is out of line with what he is asking for but lacking a side two and not knowing her reasons it is hard to draw an accurate picture.


He does need to keep his expectations realistic. And if his expectations are anything like what he's reported in this thread, they are. No, we don't know his wife's story. But, unless her story is that she is physically or mentally crippled, she can handle keeping the house up. I'm assuming that DTH would have given us that kind of information.



> Perhaps not but what is he to do? Let his children grow up in filth?


I don't know why you seem to believe that DTH's only two options are to accept his wife's behavior, or go nuclear and divorce. There is a wide spectrum of incentives and disincentives that he can use with his wife to encourage responsible behavior from her.



> Just because she should be doing something doesn't mean he abdicates his responsibilities.


Right. I'm not recommending that he permanently give up and that neither he, nor his wife should ever clean the house. That would be ridiculous. But, part of his responsibilities to his children is modeling what marriage should be. And a husband assuming the role of servant with the wife holding sway over him is not what marriage should be. He should teach his children that marriage is about two people in a mutually beneficial relationship providing for each other.



> The fact that he put in this effort and she not only reciprocated but went beyond what he expected, at least briefly, is an indication that he did something right. So, why should he not continue that pattern if the result is what he wanted? Would he really rather save his pride and cling to some "fairness scale" and live in filth or would he rather accept and build upon what he wife is capable of giving him right now?


You're focusing on the fact that his wife is cleaning more now, but ignoring the fact that his wife has stepped up her verbal aggression against him. Maybe that's a net positive for you. It's not for me. In fact, I would say it's a net negative.



> Of course she is obligated. I would be saying the same things to her that I am saying to him. She isn't here.


Great. That hasn't been clear in your earlier posts.



> That being said, my point is that he can't wait on her to be the best husband/father he can be. He can't let his children live in filth even if it's his wife sole duty to keep the house clean. He can't play parent/husband to her.


You're right that he needs to step up. But stepping up by cleaning the house isn't the correct course of action. What he needs to do is to be the best husband/father he can be. And the best husband/father he can be is not being the butler.

In the long run, he will be happier, his children will be happier, and even his wife will be happier if he insists that they all pull their own weight in the family. That's the goal he needs to work toward. And he won't get there by being his wife's butler.



> And shutting off the internet isn't being bullied?


Of course not. It's being helpful. His wife has proven that she is too distracted by the internet to accomplish her duties. Removing that distraction isn't retribution, it's assistance.

And if she can show that she can handle her duties and still have time for distractions, then bring back the internet.



> She could still waste time sleeping, reading magazines, talking on the phone or staring at the wall.


Sure. I thought we were both assuming that she was a fairly decent person who has just gradually fallen into the trap of mistreating her husband. I'm assuming a little jump start will get her back on the right track. But you are correct that, if she is a psychopath who is intent on mistreating her husband and children, regardless of what incentives or disincentives exist, she does have the free will to do it. But I think DTH can deal with that problem if it comes up. Why avoid taking action because his wife might be a narcissistic psychopath?



> He is trying the best he can, what he wants from her is acknowledgement and appreciation. Right now his only way of getting that is if she reciprocates "in kind". But their relationship is strained and he is forgetting the other ways in which couples express appreciation and affection.


You are right that he is trying. And he does deserve reciprocation. But if his wife wants to reciprocate in an empty and meaningless way, then he shouldn't accept it. If he spends 2 hours after cleaning the house for her, and she responds by giving him a nice hug and a kiss, well she got the better end of that deal, didn't she?



> Because he didn't have boundaries? But weren't you just saying that he went into the marriage with certain unspoken, fairly common expectations? An expectation and a boundary are two different things. A true boundary needs to be expressly stated and he needs to comfortable with the results of that boundary. Expectations can and should be modified according to circumstances and be free from a bait and switch tactic. He said she's always been this way, it's just gotten worse after the kids. Why is now different? What changed and how can they modify each others expectations that don't make either one feel put upon?


Expectations and boundaries are sometimes different, and sometimes the same. Most married couples don't sit down and explicitly discuss how they feel about infidelity before the wedding. It's pretty universally accepted that infidelity is bad and won't be tolerated. I know my wife and I never broached the subject.

Similarly, it would probably seem foolish to a man to tell his wife that, while he was prepared to work 60 hours at his career, he expected her to put in a moderate amount of effort maintaining the home. It would be afraid of insulting my wife if I told her that, while she wasn't working outside the home, she should vacuum the house every once in a while. It would be just as insulting for my wife to feign stupidity and suggest that she had no idea that being a SAHM meant that she actually had to do some amount of housework.

However, they are now where they are. And those boundaries and expectations that normally go without saying must be explicitly stated. He must go to his wife and tell her that her shirking is intolerable.



> I think that if he shows commitment to her and lets go of resentment and works on rekindling their marriage she will do the same. And since she has already reacted in this manner I feel more confident in my opinion.


Yes. If you firmly believe in the feminine imperative where men serve women and women are free to berate men, then DTH is on the right track. Congratulations.

However, if he would like a marriage where he doesn't have to be his wife's butler, and his wife actually respects him, then he may want to try a different strategy.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

OP, 

So, she recognizes there is a problem, even to the point of indulging in pity parties.

Have you asked her why this problem is happening and how it can be fixed? 

If she says "I don't know", ask het what she is doing to try to figure it out. Consider explaining that if it is going to get fixed, you need her to introspect and determine if there is anything she needs to fix about herself. Promise to do the same -- introspecting yourself. Make yourself an IC appointment, go, repeat as requires; and suggest she talk to her doctor or find a therapist for herself. Require that she show some effort towards finding and implementing a solution.

She may be depressed. You can't fix THAT by cleaning more or talking about the unhappiness you share.. YOU cannot fix it period. Only she can.

If it is depression, and if it is not faced head on, then you can destroy your marriage and yourself trying to fix the wrong problem.


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