# Never Ending Saga ... getting worse



## SadSamIAm

My wife and I have been in an endless cycle for the past 25 years. I have posted about it before. My wife is 49 and I am 52.

The endless cycle is me initiating affection/sex and her rejecting me. We go on for a few months where she rejects me for a couple of days, but she eventually allows us to get close. We have sex. We get along great for a few days and then the cycle starts again. We end up having sex maybe 3 or 4 times a month. 

The only time it is different, is when we go away together. Last year we had three separate weekly vacations away where we get along great and have sex daily or even more.

Once or twice a year, her rejection becomes worse and we go a longer time with no affection/sex. Right now it has been 3 weeks. I didn't think I could reach my limit, but I think I might be ready to leave. 

I find it harder and harder to be nice to her when she rejects me sexually. She says that if I talked to her more, then she would feel closer to me. But when I talk to her, I often get talked down to. I get criticized and talk to with a tone of voice that I just hate. She says she wants me to talk to her, but her mood and treatment makes it very hard for me to do so. 

Anyhow ... this is the current story.

We went away for Christmas to go skiing. We had a houseful so it wasn't like one of our private get aways. She was stressed with Christmas shopping and baking before the trip, so we weren't getting along very well before we left. But we had a 6 hour drive alone in the car to get there, where we talked a fair amount. I didn't initiate anything when we got there the first night, but I did in the morning and was rejected. The next day we got along well and I tried again at night and was rejected again. Same thing the next morning and then again at night. We skiied together each day and talked on the chairlifts and I thought we were getting along fine. After the third morning of getting rejected, I went cold. Was pissed off and quit talking to her. 

Haven't really spoken to her since. Guess I am doing a kind of 180. I am working lots of hours. When I get home, I go downstairs and watch a Hockey Game or whatever I feel like watching. If she wants to talk to me, she knows where I am. Same thing when in bed, she knows where I am. I walk in the door and if she doesn't say hello, I don't either. I talk with the kids (19 and 20 year olds) and try to appear to be as happy as possible, but I don't initiate anything with her. 

She is very stubborn. She never apologizes and I have taught her through the years that I will eventually give in.

One of our routines has always been on weekend mornings. I will get up and she will stay in bed. At 11:30 or so, I will go back into the bedroom and cuddle with her. Often she will reject me, but if I am persistent, she will usually warm up to being together. Often leads to our weekly sex.

These past weekends I have simply gotten up and not approached her later. This Saturday, I watched TV until 12:30 and then I left the house to go to work for the afternoon. As soon as I got in the car, I got a text from her saying, "I was hoping you would have come in to talk to me". I just replied, "You knew where I was if you wanted to talk".

The next day (Sunday Morning) I was out watching TV and at 11:30 I decided that I would go into the bedroom to talk to her. Thought she had 'kind of' reached out to me the day before. I crawled into bed next to her and she says in a 'Beotchy' voice, "So now you are going to talk to me!" So I got up and left.

I knew there was a good chance of getting kicked in the nuts. I should have never approached her.

Sorry for the long story. In the past, I would have given in by now. This time, I would rather just not be around her at all. Want to just leave.

Any thoughts????


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## Relationship Teacher

SadSamIAm said:


> I find it harder and harder to be nice to her when she rejects me sexually. She says that if I talked to her more, then she would feel closer to me. But when I talk to her, I often get talked down to. I get criticized and talk to with a tone of voice that I just hate. She says she wants me to talk to her, but her mood and treatment makes it very hard for me to do so.


The only way you get talked down to is if _you _elevate _her_. If you don't receive it or take it in that manner, it can't even be given. Don't try to change her and the world. Disarm her.





> Haven't really spoken to her since. Guess I am doing a kind of 180. I am working lots of hours. When I get home, I go downstairs and watch a Hockey Game or whatever I feel like watching. *If* she wants to talk to me, she knows where I am. Same thing when in bed, she knows where I am. I walk in the door and *if* she doesn't say hello, I don't either. I talk with the kids (19 and 20 year olds) and try to appear to be as happy as possible, but I don't initiate anything with her.
> 
> She is very stubborn. She never apologizes and I have taught her through the years that I will eventually give in.
> 
> One of our routines has always been on weekend mornings. I will get up and she will stay in bed. At 11:30 or so, I will go back into the bedroom and cuddle with her. Often she will reject me, but* if *I am persistent, she will usually warm up to being together. Often leads to our weekly sex.
> 
> These past weekends I have simply gotten up and not approached her later. This Saturday, I watched TV until 12:30 and then I left the house to go to work for the afternoon. As soon as I got in the car, I got a text from her saying, "I was hoping you would have come in to talk to me". I just replied, "You knew where I was *if* you wanted to talk".


_If_ doesn't work in relationships.



> The next day (Sunday Morning) I was out watching TV and at 11:30 I decided that I would go into the bedroom to talk to her. Thought she had 'kind of' reached out to me the day before. I crawled into bed next to her and she says in a 'Beotchy' voice, "So now you are going to talk to me!" So I got up and left.


Totally normal for individuals to do. They realize that they can reel you in and then unload on you.



> Any thoughts????


Treat her as if you are not her emotional pawn. Let her reject you. There is a LOT of knowledge and concepts that will make this easy for you to perform, but that is the gist of it. When you accept her, you will disarm her. You aren't rewarding her bad behavior. You are rewarding yourself by no longer accepting the emotional impact. Do it for yourself. Things will dramatically change.


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## 225985

A few comments:

1) In fourth sentence, you define affection and sex as the same. Are you sure your wife does same? Do you ever cuddle or snuggle with W without expectation of sex? You might have trained her to think that cuddling = you want sex. Try the cuddling without expecting sex. Give her what she wants/needs and you might get what you want/need. And get it more often. 

2) Your wife did not want to talk to you, with timing to be determined. She wanted to talk to you when she sent you that text. Check the Wife Translation Dictionary. (Sorry, I do not have a copy either). We are thinking as guys, not woman. BTW, I would have done the same and gotten same undesired outcome. I do not practice what I am preaching, but am trying to get better. 

3) With the ski trip, you may have seen it as relaxation. Your wife may have seen it as stress, full house, shopping, baking etc. You did not even give her 24 hours to unwind before you expected sex. And then you repeated the expectation each morning and night each day. Really? Did you not think to give her a back massage to help her relax, without the sex?

Just my two cents.


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## SadSamIAm

Relationship Teacher said:


> The only way you get talked down to is if _you _elevate _her_. If you don't receive it or take it in that manner, it can't even be given. Don't try to change her and the world. Disarm her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _If_ doesn't work in relationships.
> 
> 
> 
> Totally normal for individuals to do. They realize that they can reel you in and then unload on you.
> 
> 
> Treat her as if you are not her emotional pawn. Let her reject you. There is a LOT of knowledge and concepts that will make this easy for you to perform, but that is the gist of it. When you accept her, you will disarm her. You aren't rewarding her bad behavior. You are rewarding yourself by no longer accepting the emotional impact. Do it for yourself. Things will dramatically change.


I am not clear on what you are telling me to do. Yes, I let her reject me. I have no other choice. 

Can you be more direct in regards to what you are telling me to do?


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## SadSamIAm

blueinbr said:


> A few comments:
> 
> 1) In fourth sentence, you define affection and sex as the same. Are you sure your wife does same? Do you ever cuddle or snuggle with W without expectation of sex? You might have trained her to think that cuddling = you want sex. Try the cuddling without expecting sex. Give her what she wants/needs and you might get what you want/need. And get it more often.


My wife is not an affectionate person. She doesn't accept hugs or cuddling. She never initiates them. So when we do cuddle/hug it does typically lead to sex. 

BTW, I have gotten much better at this over the years. If she allows me to hug her in bed, I will and I don't try to initiate sex until she gives me a clear message that she wants me to. I used to initiate sex too soon which usually lead to rejection.





> 2) Your wife did not want to talk to you, with timing to be determined. She wanted to talk to you when she sent you that text. Check the Wife Translation Dictionary. (Sorry, I do not have a copy either). We are thinking as guys, not woman. BTW, I would have done the same and gotten same undesired outcome. I do not practice what I am preaching, but am trying to get better.


She sent me the text after I had been out in the living room for 4 hours. She was in the bedroom. She sent it after I had driven away from the house. I don't believe she wanted to talk at all. She just wants me to suck up to her. 



> 3) With the ski trip, you may have seen it as relaxation. Your wife may have seen it as stress, full house, shopping, baking etc. You did not even give her 24 hours to unwind before you expected sex. And then you repeated the expectation each morning and night each day. Really? Did you not think to give her a back massage to help her relax, without the sex?


It isn't like I just grab a boob or something. When I say initiate, I mean I reach over to hug her or just hold her hand. 95% of the time that we have sex, it begins with me giving her a back massage. She has 'responsive desire' which means that it takes a while for her to 'want' sex. I rub her back, stroke her hair and talk to her. Can be for an hour or more. As I said, I have learned when to go from that to being more sexual. Usually it is when she pushes her butt back towards me, or puts my hand on her breast. 

As I said, I didn't get upset until the third day. The first couple of days, when she pushed me away or told me to leave her alone, I did. She has a way of saying things that I know pretty quickly when it is not the right time.


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## Relationship Teacher

SadSamIAm said:


> I am not clear on what you are telling me to do. Yes, I let her reject me. I have no other choice.
> 
> Can you be more direct in regards to what you are telling me to do?


You have to let her be entirely in control of her actions and thoughts. We may think we do so, but work against it by using our emotional reactions. When you become upset by being rejected, force is exerted on her. She is left with the option of giving in or facing the emotional reaction, instead of just enjoying one another's company.

I am not telling you to do differently (so much) but to feel and think differently. When you approach her to simply be close to her, you will get more sex, not less. Relationships aren't bribes. Two intimate individuals actually work together to meet each other's needs.

Don't just be with her, connect with her. Accept the rejection. If you can learn how to not take it negatively, your love life will increase in frequency and quality.


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## Happilymarried25

After you have sex you get along great because the tension is gone. Pressure is off her for a bit and you feel relief and closer to her and then after a few days you maybe wanting sex again and she knows it so she is a bit cold to you isn't as affectionate because she doesn't want you to think that is an invitation that she wants sex? I have heard some low libido women who are not affectionate because they don't want it to lead to sex. I'm just guessing. Do you get cold and unaffectionate to her when it goes a while without sex? That doesn't help the situation. Are you only affectionate to her when you want sex?

As far as what happened at the ski resort, I think you initiated too much which stressed her out and she was already stressed out with Christmas. If she was smart she would have said yes the first time so you wouldn't initiate again and you two could be on happy terms during your trip. I don't think you should be mad at her, she just has a lower libido than you. Are you really going to get a divorce after 25 years of marriage because of this? You two should be able to come to a compromise. Have you tried scheduling sex so you don't always get rejected and get mad?


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## SadSamIAm

Relationship Teacher said:


> You have to let her be entirely in control of her actions and thoughts. We may think we do so, but work against it by using our emotional reactions. When you become upset by being rejected, force is exerted on her. She is left with the option of giving in or facing the emotional reaction, instead of just enjoying one another's company.
> 
> I am not telling you to do differently (so much) but to feel and think differently. When you approach her to simply be close to her, you will get more sex, not less. Relationships aren't bribes. Two intimate individuals actually work together to meet each other's needs.
> 
> Don't just be with her, connect with her. Accept the rejection. If you can learn how to not take it negatively, your love life will increase in frequency and quality.


What you are saying is much easier said than done. It is hard not to take it personally. 

It is what I have been trying to do for years with varying levels of success. 

Granted, I haven't been able to 'connect with her' for more than a couple of weeks while being rejected without getting angry, but whenever I have been able to stay connected, it hasn't resulted in a better love life.


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## SadSamIAm

Happilymarried25 said:


> After you have sex you get along great because the tension is gone. Pressure is off her for a bit and you feel relief and closer to her and then after a few days you maybe wanting sex again and she knows it so she is a bit cold to you isn't as affectionate because she doesn't want you to think that is an invitation that she wants sex? I have heard some low libido women who are not affectionate because they don't want it to lead to sex. I'm just guessing. Do you get cold and unaffectionate to her when it goes a while without sex? That doesn't help the situation. Are you only affectionate to her when you want sex?
> 
> As far as what happened at the ski resort, I think you initiated too much which stressed her out and she was already stressed out with Christmas. If she was smart she would have said yes the first time so you wouldn't initiate again and you two could be on happy terms during your trip. I don't think you should be mad at her, she just has a lower libido than you. Are you really going to get a divorce after 25 years of marriage because of this? You two should be able to come to a compromise. Have you tried scheduling sex so you don't always get rejected and get mad?


I understand what you are saying. In the past, I have tried to take the pressure off, but it doesn't lead to more sex. 

The only thing that leads to more sex is me being persistent. I finally get through her barriers and then she tells me how sorry she was for being so cold. But I end up feeling like not desired or loved or cared about. It doesn't feel like duty sex, because she gets into it. I always make sure she cums. But it still feels like I had to force her to want me.

It really sucks being married to someone that feels this way about sex. You have sex and everything is great. Then after a few days she gets cold to me because she doesn't want me to think that she might want sex. 

Isn't that screwed up?
Is sex with me that terrible?

I don't expect her to just have sex every time I want to but you would think that after showing I want sex, that the next day or two she might approach me. That she might care about my happiness.

Shouldn't your wife want to have sex with you?


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## marriedmanhere

One thing that stood out to me..
she sleeps in until about noon on the weekends? How late does she stay up on Friday?

What is her health like? Could her health be an issue?


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## Happilymarried25

I agree with you, it is screwed up. It makes you feel depressed, unwanted and undesired. You aren't alone there a few "sexless marriage" "dead bedroom" forums on the web and your story is very familiar especially about the part of your wife not being affectionate because you might think that means she wants to have sex. Your children are grown so if you do choose to get a divorce you don't have to visit your children. Have you has a serious talk about how this affects you? Does she know that you are getting to be at the end of your rope if something doesn't change? Let her know, she will either make an effort to improve your sex life or she won't and that will tell you that how much she cares about your marriage.


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## Marc878

This tone was probably set for years and hove helped shape it by accepting it.

No matter what you always come back to try again.

You should both read His Needs, Her Needs together. It sounds like she's had her way for so long it may not be realistic at this point.

Marriage should be a 50/50 proposition. If you can't get thru to her then you need to decide this is your life or make a change.


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## Relationship Teacher

SadSamIAm said:


> What you are saying is much easier said than done. It is hard not to take it personally.
> 
> It is what I have been trying to do for years with varying levels of success.
> 
> Granted, I haven't been able to 'connect with her' for more than a couple of weeks while being rejected without getting angry, but whenever I have been able to stay connected, it hasn't resulted in a better love life.


True. 

I realized this truth and it is why any counseling, coaching or therapy, inevitably, fail. 

My method and advice focus on the individual in a relationship. It is not easy to change how you perceive and feel things, but the process is simple.

If you are driving on the highway, in the middle lane, and realize there is an obstacle in your lane. Do you:

A.) Tell the obstacle to move.
B.) Tell someone else to move it.
C.) Slow down, change lanes, and carry on.


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## SadSamIAm

marriedmanhere said:


> One thing that stood out to me..
> she sleeps in until about noon on the weekends? How late does she stay up on Friday?
> 
> What is her health like? Could her health be an issue?


She is very healthy. She is a night person. She will stay up until 2 or 3 in the morning. She eats very healthy and exercises almost daily.


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## SadSamIAm

Relationship Teacher said:


> True.
> 
> I realized this truth and it is why any counseling, coaching or therapy, inevitably, fail.
> 
> My method and advice focus on the individual in a relationship. It is not easy to change how you perceive and feel things, but the process is simple.
> 
> If you are driving on the highway, in the middle lane, and realize there is an obstacle in your lane. Do you:
> 
> A.) Tell the obstacle to move.
> B.) Tell someone else to move it.
> C.) Slow down, change lanes, and carry on.


I've been committed to driving this highway. I have been moving obstacles along the way. Sometimes even though there are obstacles, it is a great trip. 

Just getting to the point where I think I should find a different route! Worried I won't be able to find another highway. Or it might be an even bumpier journey. All at great cost!


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## SadSamIAm

Happilymarried25 said:


> I agree with you, it is screwed up. It makes you feel depressed, unwanted and undesired. You aren't alone there a few "sexless marriage" "dead bedroom" forums on the web and your story is very familiar especially about the part of your wife not being affectionate because you might think that means she wants to have sex. Your children are grown so if you do choose to get a divorce you don't have to visit your children. Have you has a serious talk about how this affects you? Does she know that you are getting to be at the end of your rope if something doesn't change? Let her know, she will either make an effort to improve your sex life or she won't and that will tell you that how much she cares about your marriage.


I left about a year ago. I was in a Hotel for 4 days. My daughter told me she was proud of me. My son was upset but understood. 

I had looked at apartments and had an appointment in the afternoon to pay a deposit and sign a three month lease. That morning my daughter drove her car into a ditch right by our house. I went to help her. It was a cold day and we had to call a tow truck. We went into the house to wait. My wife texted me to have me come into the bedroom. She was sitting in a chair crying. I shouldn't have gone in there. I knew that if I saw her I would cave. I gave her a hug and she told me she didn't want our marriage to end. I made her agree to go to counseling. I cancelled the apartment appointment. 

She came with me back to the hotel to get my things and she spent the night with me there. Men are simple. Her showing she wanted me was all I needed. We got along great for the next month or so. Then we went to Mexico for a week. A couple of months later we went to Vancouver for 5 days. Then a couple of months later we went to Toronto for a week. Things are great when we have quality time together. It has been 4 months since the Toronto trip.

Worst mistake I made was not arranging the counseling. I should have known that the problems would return. I am guessing anything that counseling would do would only be temporary as well.


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## Relationship Teacher

SadSamIAm said:


> I've been committed to driving this highway. I have been moving obstacles along the way. Sometimes even though there are obstacles, it is a great trip.
> 
> Just getting to the point where I think I should find a different route! Worried I won't be able to find another highway. Or it might be an even bumpier journey. All at great cost!


Fantastic! Thank you for participating.

The goal is at the destination. We spend so much time worrying about how to get there that we never pick up the car keys or travel in a state of stress. The object in our lane is (basically) unmovable, but we are so committed to our lane, that we fail to take the much simpler action of moving around it.

Taking things personally takes an incredible amount of energy. The way you react is because you have pent up energy that you feel must be released. You do what you did in the opening post and, voila, the uncomfortable rise is gone. The problem is that doing so is like colliding with that obstacle. You do have a need to release that energy bubble, you just don't know another manner to do so. It feels uncomfortable to do anything else.

The missing piece in all of this is your logical mind. I write a lot about this. Most of what I say when coaching is meant to empower an individual's brain. It isn't about making someone smarter, but tapping into the full potential of the brain. We tap into the brain when calm and in difficult moments.


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## MachoMcCoy

Wife's like yours and mine LOVE the 180. You're not pestering them for sex any longer.

Our marriages are VERY similar. Only I "get it", finally, that my wife doesn't love me any more. You have a long row to hoe, my friend.


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## SadSamIAm

MachoMcCoy said:


> Wife's like yours and mine LOVE the 180. You're not pestering them for sex any longer.
> 
> Our marriages are VERY similar. Only I "get it", finally, that my wife doesn't love me any more. You have a long row to hoe, my friend.


I have read your posts and have thought the same thing. Our wives are very similar.

So now that you 'get it', what are you doing? Just going to live with the way it is, divorce and start looking for a replacement or stay but start looking for a replacement?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

If her issue is that she has a higher need for conversation, it doesn't work like a vending machine where you plug in a few hours of talking and get sex.
There would have to be consistent meeting needs and consistently stopping bad behavior for long enough to build up enough love. 

You can rebuild love. It doesn't have to be gone forever. But if you're the one making the first step to repair it, you're going to be doing most of the work at first and getting very little in return for a while. It's not something you can try for a few weeks and then stop if you don't get the results you want. 

Have you tried something like this? How One Spouse Can Lead the Other Back to Intimacy

Maybe sit down this weekend and fill some of these out together Marriage Builders® Questionnaires see where you both stand.


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## Buddy400

SadSamIAm said:


> Any thoughts????


Don't give in!


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## Buddy400

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't expect her to just have sex every time I want to but you would think that after showing I want sex, that the next day or two she might approach me. *That she might care about my happiness.
> *
> Shouldn't your wife want to have sex with you?


There's the part that always bothers me the most.


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## chillymorn

SadSamIAm said:


> I left about a year ago. I was in a Hotel for 4 days. My daughter told me she was proud of me. My son was upset but understood.
> 
> I had looked at apartments and had an appointment in the afternoon to pay a deposit and sign a three month lease. That morning my daughter drove her car into a ditch right by our house. I went to help her. It was a cold day and we had to call a tow truck. We went into the house to wait. My wife texted me to have me come into the bedroom. She was sitting in a chair crying. I shouldn't have gone in there. I knew that if I saw her I would cave. I gave her a hug and she told me she didn't want our marriage to end. I made her agree to go to counseling. I cancelled the apartment appointment.
> 
> She came with me back to the hotel to get my things and she spent the night with me there. Men are simple. Her showing she wanted me was all I needed. We got along great for the next month or so. Then we went to Mexico for a week. A couple of months later we went to Vancouver for 5 days. Then a couple of months later we went to Toronto for a week. Things are great when we have quality time together. It has been 4 months since the Toronto trip.
> 
> Worst mistake I made was not arranging the counseling. I should have known that the problems would return. I am guessing anything that counseling would do would only be temporary as well.


time to remind her that the present situation is not working. make the counseling app now. start looking for apartments again.


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## MachoMcCoy

SadSamIAm said:


> I have read your posts and have thought the same thing. Our wives are very similar.
> 
> So now that you 'get it', what are you doing? Just going to live with the way it is, divorce and start looking for a replacement or stay but start looking for a replacement?


Short story: stay while looking for a replacement.


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## EnigmaGirl

> I find it harder and harder to be nice to her when she rejects me sexually. She says that if I talked to her more, then she would feel closer to me. *But when I talk to her, I often get talked down to. I get criticized and talk to with a tone of voice that I just hate. She says she wants me to talk to her, but her mood and treatment makes it very hard for me to do so. *


To me, this is the root of your problem.

If you can't even talk and have a respectful conversation with someone, how the hell do you have a sexual relationship with them.

In fact, your conversational relationship closely matches your sexual one....disrespectful and selfish. In fact, if she's talking to you the way you suggest she is, why would you even WANT to have sex with her. I wouldn't be remotely interested in having sex with someone who treated me this way.

In my opinion, your sex problem is just a symptom of the fact that you're simply not a couple anymore...something is severely broken in that she really doesn't think much of you and isn't interested in ensuring that your needs are met.

I think you guys need to have a deep conversation about your expectations, your relationship goals and whether or not either one of you want to bother to continue. After a marriage this long, it seems like having an honest conversation might be a good idea so that you can either salvage the marriage and reach a new level of understanding or find a way to amicably end it. 

But you need to stop playing games and be extremely clear with her.


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## SadSamIAm

MachoMcCoy said:


> Short story: stay while looking for a replacement.


I can't decide between the choices. 

1) One minute I want to just move out and get my own place and see what happens. 

- Complicated as we own a business together
- Expensive as I will probably be paying her something like $200,000 a year in alimony
- Sad as I truly love her
- Probably gives me the best chance of having a good life
- Could end up alone
- Have always believed Marriage was 'till death do you part'


2) The next minute I want to stay, and keep trying

- Easiest
- Can be great at times
- If it does get better, I know it will be temporary and half of my life will be spent feeling frustrated and alone
- Keeps my family intact. Even though the kids are older, we still love doing things together as a family.


3) Or just stay and do my own thing and keep my eyes open in case someone new comes along.

- She might realize that I am gone and actually show she cares
- Reduces the risk of leaving and ending up alone
- Don't have to give up half of everything I own to see if I can do better
- Goes against my beliefs


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## MRR

I dont have a lot to add here as far as what do to about it, but the 'cycle' you describe of getting sex to 'tide you over' then being rejected however many times til you get it again-- the way you described it-- sounds eerily like my marriage. 

Which thankfully ended after 7 1/2 years. 

I would have been the idiot who would have stayed forever, 25 years and longer, and nothing would have changed, but finally she gave me the ILYBINILWY and we divorced. 

I found myself so much happier. I do not get regular sex because I am not in a committed relationship currently, but it is so much better than what you are going through. Plus, now i can make sure BEFORE i commit that it is not going to happen again. 

I also learned WHY it happened (on my end) and how I became unattractive, so going forward, will have a partner who has legitmate desire for me (and since my divorce I have had this and it is amazing to have someone not be able to keep her hands off you-- went way too long without feeling that).


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## EnigmaGirl

> I can't decide between the choices.
> 
> 1) One minute I want to just move out and get my own place and see what happens.
> 
> - Complicated as we own a business together
> - Expensive as I will probably be paying her something like $200,000 a year in alimony
> - Sad as I truly love her
> - Probably gives me the best chance of having a good life
> - Could end up alone
> - Have always believed Marriage was 'till death do you part'
> 
> 
> 2) The next minute I want to stay, and keep trying
> 
> - Easiest
> - Can be great at times
> - If it does get better, I know it will be temporary and half of my life will be spent feeling frustrated and alone
> - Keeps my family intact. Even though the kids are older, we still love doing things together as a family.
> 
> 
> 3) Or just stay and do my own thing and keep my eyes open in case someone new comes along.
> 
> - She might realize that I am gone and actually show she cares
> - Reduces the risk of leaving and ending up alone
> - Don't have to give up half of everything I own to see if I can do better
> - Goes against my beliefs


Have you laid this out for her this clearly?

If not, you should. 

You need to tell her that right now, you're at a cross-roads and you're trying to make a decision. It would be helpful to have a calm discussion about this to see if you're on the same page.

For all you know, she has a list of her own.


----------



## MEM2020

Option (4)
You say in a very calm, low key way: 

We BOTH deserve to be happy. I'm making an appointment with a MC, you are welcome to come. 

And then - regardless of what she says or does, make the appointment, let her know the day and time and GO. Don't sell it, or try to persuade her. Don't threaten. Just make the appt. 

This is called creating a branch point in a decision tree. If she comes great. If not, your focus in the sessions ought to be on how to part ways amicably. 

If your wife - asks you what was discussed in a MC session that she didn't bother to attend, just shrug and tell her: Either engage or don't. This half azzed approach is a non starter. 

Because Sam, your problems aren't really sexual. You have a terrible connection with your wife. Way too much need, way too little respect and too little self respect. 






SadSamIAm said:


> I can't decide between the choices.
> 
> 1) One minute I want to just move out and get my own place and see what happens.
> 
> - Complicated as we own a business together
> - Expensive as I will probably be paying her something like $200,000 a year in alimony
> - Sad as I truly love her
> - Probably gives me the best chance of having a good life
> - Could end up alone
> - Have always believed Marriage was 'till death do you part'
> 
> 
> 2) The next minute I want to stay, and keep trying
> 
> - Easiest
> - Can be great at times
> - If it does get better, I know it will be temporary and half of my life will be spent feeling frustrated and alone
> - Keeps my family intact. Even though the kids are older, we still love doing things together as a family.
> 
> 
> 3) Or just stay and do my own thing and keep my eyes open in case someone new comes along.
> 
> - She might realize that I am gone and actually show she cares
> - Reduces the risk of leaving and ending up alone
> - Don't have to give up half of everything I own to see if I can do better
> - Goes against my beliefs


----------



## MRR

I chose option 4 and my ex did go and used the MC session as the time to tell me she wanted to divorce. I was upset at the time but pretty happy it finally happened.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

The WORST thing one can do is go to MC without first performing a self-reflection and becoming a self-happy individual. Most start off in a relationship independent and later become dependent. MC fails because individuals are in the wrong state of mind. The statistics are disastrous, when viewed at happiness 5 years after concluding MC. 

Interestingly, when one returns to self-happiness, MC is usually not even a consideration. 

The relationship doesn't magically become better by satisfying a mans sexual needs. There are underlying flaws that are still left unaddressed. 

As I indicated with my analogy, changing others and the world is the hardest thing to do. Conflict takes far more energy than just navigating around fixed objects. What we can do is becoming more gravitationally massive and exert an indirect influence on others, expending no energy.


----------



## JohnA

It is very hard for women to speak guy and guys to speak women. For what it is worth you might be worth the effort to speak women. You speak of lack of sex. Try "unmeant emotional needs" "her not realizing reaching out to you and accepting you sexually is a form of validation for you" "it is not about screwing which a guy with a hundred, two hundred dollars can get" "existing in a desert of denial and rejection"

25 years of sleeping in a cold bed Is enough. I stated many times that their many valid issues to end a marriage but adultery is never acceptable. Begin to establish a clear path to ending the marriage. When complete, and only then, demand MC with the goal of permeant change or divorce.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Me, without a doubt. I just added some modifications for my situation



SadSamIAm said:


> 3) Or just stay and do my own thing and keep my eyes open in case someone new comes along.
> 
> - She might realize that I am gone and actually show she cares
> *Will not happen for me. She knows. She doesn't care. But it allows for me to do a lot of stuff other husbands can't do. As long as I don't bother her, A-OK.*
> 
> - Reduces the risk of leaving and ending up alone
> *yes...*
> 
> - Don't have to give up half of everything I own to see if I can do better
> *Don't care. We don't have that much. And I'd rather live on half of my retirement as a free man than miserable forever*
> 
> - Goes against my beliefs
> *DO NOT care. She changed the rules first*


Long story short, I'm not abandoning my family just because I'm not happy. We don't fight. We even enjoy each others company sometimes. We are a happy family unit. 

But I have ZERO intention of dying with the last time I had sex with someone who enjoyed it being in 1990-something. Not gonna' happen.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

MRR said:


> I dont have a lot to add here as far as what do to about it, but the 'cycle' you describe of getting sex to 'tide you over' then being rejected however many times til you get it again-- the way you described it-- sounds eerily like my marriage.
> 
> Which thankfully ended after 7 1/2 years.
> 
> I would have been the idiot who would have stayed forever, 25 years and longer, and nothing would have changed, but finally she gave me the ILYBINILWY and we divorced.
> 
> I found myself so much happier. I do not get regular sex because I am not in a committed relationship currently, but it is so much better than what you are going through. Plus, now i can make sure BEFORE i commit that it is not going to happen again.
> 
> I also learned WHY it happened (on my end) and how I became unattractive, so going forward, will have a partner who has legitmate desire for me (and since my divorce I have had this and it is amazing to have someone not be able to keep her hands off you-- went way too long without feeling that).


QFT!
That is an amazing feeling!
Not going to go into it to much but I will say this about it.
LIFE CHANGING!


----------



## MEM2020

Says the man who chooses not to disclose the length of his relationship in his profile. 

Experience matters. 

You are selling a concept which simply isn't true. The concept is: 

If I'm happy with ME, than by default that means I'll be happy with YOU. 





Relationship Teacher said:


> The WORST thing one can do is go to MC without first performing a self-reflection and becoming a self-happy individual. Most start off in a relationship independent and later become dependent. MC fails because individuals are in the wrong state of mind. The statistics are disastrous, when viewed at happiness 5 years after concluding MC.
> 
> Interestingly, when one returns to self-happiness, MC is usually not even a consideration.
> 
> The relationship doesn't magically become better by satisfying a mans sexual needs. There are underlying flaws that are still left unaddressed.
> 
> As I indicated with my analogy, changing others and the world is the hardest thing to do. Conflict takes far more energy than just navigating around fixed objects. What we can do is becoming more gravitationally massive and exert an indirect influence on others, expending no energy.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

MEM11363 said:


> You are selling a concept which simply isn't true. The concept is:
> 
> If I'm happy with ME, than by default that means I'll be happy with YOU.


Complete mischaracterization.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Relationship Teacher said:


> Complete mischaracterization.


Well then, provide the citations and resources to bolster your point. In the few threads where we cross you throw out stats, research and other numbers then get upset when people question your personal philosophy.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Well then, provide the citations and resources to bolster your point. In the few threads where we cross you throw out stats, research and other numbers then get upset when people question your personal philosophy.


You're hilarious.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Relationship Teacher said:


> You're hilarious.


You're ironic.


----------



## alte Dame

You sound like you know yourself and you understand what you need in a marriage. Regular sex is an important, necessary element to you. I think she knows that it is important to you, but doesn't realize that it is necessary.

You have let her drive the train on this. She is taking you for granted. She knows from your behavior that you want a change, but she hasn't sought the help she would need to allow the two of you to work it out.

I would be clear and direct: Sex at a certain frequency is an essential need of yours. If she can't do it, then the two of you, sadly, are not suited for life. If she wants to try to meet your needs in this regard, she needs to take the initiative and find help for herself.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Relationship Teacher said:


> You're hilarious.


Wow, that response _really_ establishes your credibility! Now I _know_ you're an expert!

/sarc


----------



## Relationship Teacher

Nucking Futs said:


> Wow, that response _really_ establishes your credibility! Now I _know_ you're an expert!
> 
> /sarc


.
.
This is what I said



> What we can do is becoming more gravitationally massive and exert an indirect influence on others, expending no energy.


This is what MEM said in response:



> Says the man who chooses not to disclose the length of his relationship in his profile.
> 
> Experience matters.
> 
> You are selling a concept which simply isn't true. The concept is:
> 
> If I'm happy with ME, than by default that means I'll be happy with YOU.




Save The Marriage Blog: How To Save Your Marriage - 2006 May
You Can Only Change Yourself | World of Psychology
8 Psych Tips For Changing Yourself And Other People - PsyBlog


“When you resort to attacking the messenger and not the message, you have lost the debate.” 

Addison Whithecomb


----------



## 3Xnocharm

SadSamIAm said:


> I can't decide between the choices.
> 
> 1) One minute I want to just move out and get my own place and see what happens.
> 
> - Complicated as we own a business together
> - Expensive as I will probably be paying her something like $200,000 a year in alimony
> - Sad as I truly love her
> - Probably gives me the best chance of having a good life
> - Could end up alone
> - Have always believed Marriage was 'till death do you part'


What makes you think you would have to even pay any alimony at all? And why so high, are you a millionaire? You have been miserable way too long, isn't it time you give yourself a chance to find happiness? Your wife has been showing you all along who she is, so you are not going to change her. So your choices are to leave..or, stay and forget about having sex, accept this is your life...or, stay and cheat and be the lowest form human possible.


----------



## MEM2020

RT,
The gravitational thing - aligns 100% with my experience. 

What SadSam describes is a situation where - instead of working the gravity angle - he does a lot of stuff that 'feels' clingy to her. 

It's why she spends a lot of energy pushing him away. 

Spatially - he wants to orbit at a distance of one foot. And she wants to orbit at a distance of 2 feet. 

Wanting it is ok. Pushing for it. Not so much. He steps in, she pushes him away. 

The needier person always loses this type battle. As Sam has been experiencing for a long time. 






Relationship Teacher said:


> .
> .
> This is what I said
> 
> 
> 
> This is what MEM said in response:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Save The Marriage Blog: How To Save Your Marriage - 2006 May
> You Can Only Change Yourself | World of Psychology
> 8 Psych Tips For Changing Yourself And Other People - PsyBlog
> 
> 
> “When you resort to attacking the messenger and not the message, you have lost the debate.”
> 
> Addison Whithecomb


----------



## Relationship Teacher

MEM11363 said:


> RT,
> The gravitational thing - aligns 100% with my experience.
> 
> What SadSam describes is a situation where - instead of working the gravity angle - he does a lot of stuff that 'feels' clingy to her.
> 
> It's why she spends a lot of energy pushing him away.
> 
> Spatially - he wants to orbit at a distance of one foot. And she wants to orbit at a distance of 2 feet.
> 
> Wanting it is ok. Pushing for it. Not so much. He steps in, she pushes him away.
> 
> The needier person always loses this type battle. As Sam has been experiencing for a long time.


Awesome addition to my analogy. Thanks.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Sam, as an individual what makes your heart happy? When are you the happiest? 

And I have thought of an approach that may help, but wanted to ask this question first.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I'm posting this message here from the "she divorced me cause... thread and will probably finish my talking over here... here goes....

One issue I see as an on going issue with them is when S2 wants him near and when he does, she is prickly.

So, one boundary issue I would work on if I were him would be to target this push pull he's getting. 

So lets say she's been after him to talk to her and he keeps trying and trying and every single time she is a barbed porcupine. If I were in his shoes, ESPECIALLY if he is kind, considerate, has already attempted hearing her and being warm, I would say something to the effect of "It is an extremely unpleasant experience following invitations to heart connect through talking, bring my whole heart to the conversation, then find myself running into the barbs of your porcupine attitude, so when you choose to put the porcupine quills away, I will be back to talk. Until then I will not be subjecting myself to this chronic pain. I'm choosing to not live like that any longer, no one should have to."

Then anytime after that if she invites to talk and he KNOWS he is in the clear on his care for her and the quills come out again, he can simply say "I'm not talking to porcupine quills" and hit that truth drum regular until the behavior disappears. She is CHOOSING those quills and she can choose to lay them down. 

Now if she wants to come back around and tell him .... "ok, I hear you, but those quills are there because of xyz", then they can get to the bottom of xyz, but he does not have to live in chronic pain like that. He can work on detachment and self fulfillment, which I feel both will help to mitigate "some" of the impact of her actions, but it's not going to eliminate all of it and at the end of the day it still has to be addressed. Taking it too far into acceptance is the beginning of conditioning yourself to accept abusive attitudes, words, deeds and that can expand too far. So part of this is Sam recognizing how much he can legitimately take and how much he can't then make it known what he will and will not accept. This push pull is one of the MAIN issues between the two of them. 

He may have more self assessment on his contribution to the push pull, but sometimes the boundary will serve to give him space to breathe and heal, before he has everything figured out. He needs a break, that much is crystal clear to me. Its very telling to me that his daughter was proud of him for moving out and standing up to his wife. She does not like how her mother treats him. And she is boots on the ground.


----------



## turnera

SadSamIAm said:


> She is very stubborn. She never apologizes and I have taught her through the years that I will eventually give in.
> 
> One of our routines has always been on weekend mornings. I will get up and she will stay in bed. At 11:30 or so, I will go back into the bedroom and cuddle with her. Often she will reject me, but if I am persistent, she will usually warm up to being together. Often leads to our weekly sex.
> 
> These past weekends I have simply gotten up and not approached her later. This Saturday, I watched TV until 12:30 and then I left the house to go to work for the afternoon. As soon as I got in the car, I got a text from her saying, "I was hoping you would have come in to talk to me". I just replied, "You knew where I was if you wanted to talk".
> 
> The next day (Sunday Morning) I was out watching TV and at 11:30 I decided that I would go into the bedroom to talk to her. Thought she had 'kind of' reached out to me the day before. I crawled into bed next to her and she says in a 'Beotchy' voice, "So now you are going to talk to me!" So I got up and left.
> 
> Any thoughts????


"Wife, I'm done. I deserve a woman who respects me and is excited to have sex with me. That's obviously not you. My lawyer will be in touch with yours."


----------



## turnera

SadSamIAm said:


> 1) One minute I want to just move out and get my own place and see what happens.
> 
> - Complicated as we own a business together
> - Expensive as I will probably be paying her something like $200,000 a year in alimony


Obviously you guys make a lot of money. So I'm going to assume $200,000 isn't gonna kill you. 

So I'll ask you: Is it worth $200,000/year to free you from misery and so you can go out and start ENJOYING your life, having wild and crazy sex with beautiful and engaging women, and looking forward to getting up each morning?

And in the meantime, practice one easy thing: If she is 'prickly,' or insulting, or sarcastic, or demeaning, simply do one thing - say (out loud) "Ouch!" and then TURN AROUND AND WALK AWAY. Every single time she does it, say Ouch! and leave the room. Trust me, she'll figure it out. She'll also start to realize that HER actions result in YOUR action. And maybe, just maybe, she'll start to respect you as YOU are starting to respect you.

Have you read Hold On To Your N.U.T.s? It would do you some good.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Ms. T is very spot on here Sam.... there are plenty of women who would not treat you like this. You do not have to accept this kind of behavior from her.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> "Wife, I'm done. I deserve a woman who respects me and is excited to have sex with me. That's obviously not you. My lawyer will be in touch with yours."


Defensive posture. Limits his ability to grow.

And he loves her, Turnera. Think of how hard it would be for you to leave your husband. Not an easy task.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Limits his ability to grow.


Narrow minded. 

Doing this does not limit his ability to grow. Refusing to grow limits his ability to grow.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Narrow minded.
> 
> Doing this does not limit his ability to grow. Refusing to grow limits his ability to grow.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


And giving up at this point, without seeking to understand her and improving his mindset and behavior, would be refusing to grow.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

from the other thread Sam....

@jld I like the way you worded those. I'm just not sure they will work in this situation. She seems to be all over the place and a bit unpredictable, moving goal posts. If she is, standing up for what he will and will not accept is not whining, it is declaring... enough! He may see his way past it and that would be great, but it sounds like he has his belly full and he is definitely seeking relief. He doesn't have to tolerate that kind of attitude. She can learn to speak to him about her issues/pain without contempt. I do with my H. The learning is not all on him. It is also on her. If he stands up to her approach it pushes to need to learn a different approach back onto her, which is the one doing the push pull to begin with. She needs to learn to not push pull and speak to her husband without contempt. If he never pushes that responsibility back onto her she will never learn to choose differently, thus I disagree with your assessment of what is needed here. 

He is looking for a permanent change, therefore, she will need to learn a different way. She cannot do that with your approach because Sam is taking all the learning onto himself. He truly does need to let her hit a boundary so that she is forced to learn a different behavior in order to remain in this relationship with him. That is the ONLY permanent relief he is going to find. She either chooses to be willing and learns different or he goes and finds someone else who already knows not to treat him like that. I believe that is where this situation has come to. His change is learning what he will no longer tolerate in her OR someone new. THAT is the change that is permanent. 

Unfortunately.... his wife will have to learn new behaviors since they didn't start out like that. But, that's ok, it's good for her. Lets see how wise she is. If he chooses that route, he is fixing to find out how devoted she is. Which is also a good thing. If she commits, then he will know, she is truly devoted. If she doesn't, he will find out she wasn't and he can let her go. I'm all for empathy and care/listening, bringing whole heart. But for me, that approach has some serious limits. You don't just give those things away to just any person or any type of behavior. That's where I stand on it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> from the other thread Sam....
> 
> @jld I like the way you worded those. I'm just not sure they will work in this situation. She seems to be all over the place and a bit unpredictable, moving goal posts. If she is, standing up for what he will and will not accept is not whining, it is declaring... enough! He may see his way past it and that would be great, but it sounds like he has his belly full and he is definitely seeking relief. He doesn't have to tolerate that kind of attitude. She can learn to speak to him about her issues/pain without contempt. I do with my H. The learning is not all on him. It is also on her. If he stands up to her approach it pushes to need to learn a different approach back onto her, which is the one doing the push pull to begin with. She needs to learn to not push pull and speak to her husband without contempt. If he never pushes that responsibility back onto her she will never learn to choose differently, thus I disagree with your assessment of what is needed here.
> 
> He is looking for a permanent change, therefore, she will need to learn a different way. She cannot do that with your approach because Sam is taking all the learning onto himself. He truly does need to let her hit a boundary so that she is forced to learn a different behavior in order to remain in this relationship with him. That is the ONLY permanent relief he is going to find. She either chooses to be willing and learns different or he goes and finds someone else who already knows not to treat him like that. I believe that is where this situation has come to. His change is learning what he will no longer tolerate in her OR someone new. THAT is the change that is permanent.
> 
> Unfortunately.... his wife will have to learn new behaviors since they didn't start out like that. But, that's ok, it's good for her. Lets see how wise she is. If he chooses that route, he is fixing to find out how devoted she is. Which is also a good thing. If she commits, then he will know, she is truly devoted. If she doesn't, he will find out she wasn't and he can let her go. I'm all for empathy and care/listening, bringing whole heart. But for me, that approach has some serious limits. You don't just give those things away to just any person or any type of behavior. That's where I stand on it.


jld's response from the other thread:

I do think we have two fundamentally different approaches, Blossom. That is why it is good to discuss them thoroughly. It allows Sam a chance to see which one might work better with his wife.

Some women, like perhaps you and GI and NS, may prefer a very direct, in your face, "Stop it now, Woman, or I am leaving!" approach. That may feel more comfortable to you. It may turn some women on, too. They may see it as strength in a man. 

To me, it feels like weakness. Great emotional weakness. I would think, "Wow. No curiosity. No belief in his ability to understand me. No emotional strength. Just quits when I won't, or cannot, carry him."

See how two different women can have a completely different reaction to the same approach?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> jld's response from the other thread:
> 
> I do think we have two fundamentally different approaches, Blossom. That is why it is good to discuss them thoroughly. It allows Sam a chance to see which one might work better with his wife.
> 
> Some women, like perhaps you and GI and NS, may prefer a very direct, in your face, "Stop it now, Woman, or I am leaving!" approach. That may feel more comfortable to you. It may turn some women on, too. They may see it as strength in a man.
> 
> To me, it feels like weakness. Great emotional weakness. I would think, "Wow. No curiosity. No belief in his ability to understand me. No emotional strength. Just quits when I won't, or cannot, carry him."
> 
> See how two different women can have a completely different reaction to the same approach?


I see that between us. Yet, the boundary is Sam's. What can he stomach. At that point when his belly is full, its not going to matter what she thinks of it. Its too easy to find a woman who takes responsibility for herself. If he is getting tired, he may not care to slog that hill anymore. He has that right and he is no less of a man for it, he just recognizes what hill is isn't willing to die on. If she chose to make it that difficult for him... natural consequence.



Ok... I think we are pretty caught up from the other thread. I think can work from here.

Hope you are doing better today Sam.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> And giving up at this point, without seeking to understand her and improving his mindset and behavior, would be refusing to grow.


Acutally I disagree... he would be recognizing HER need to grow and that IS growth for him.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Acutally I disagree... he would be recognizing HER need to grow and that IS growth for him.


I don't think quitting at this point will help him grow. I think seeking to understand how he can influence her, and then changing how he is currently doing that, will help him grow.

I think we have different goals for him. That may be part of the disconnect.


----------



## turnera

Once he files for divorce or separation, they will have plenty of time to discuss why it's happening and what could be done to change it - and call off the divorce. She obviously doesn't need him for money, so faced with losing his presence might make her question things. She went to him the last time he left; unfortunately, he then dropped the ball and let the marriage fade back into disrespect and taking him for granted. Hopefully, he is learning this time that when one takes you for granted, you simply must erect boundaries and accompanying consequences for breaking that boundary. It's simple psychology, and he can say it as lovingly and longingly as he wants to, while still maintaining the boundaries and consequences.

She CLEARLY is quite content to live the rest of her life just pushing him away from her except an occasional crumb, so for HER to want to change, she will have to see that cushy, no-responsibility life in jeopardy.

I see this as giving her a chance to meet him halfway.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> Once he files for divorce or separation, they will have plenty of time to discuss why it's happening and what could be done to change it. She obviously doesn't need him for money, so faced with losing his presence might make her question things. She went to him the last time he left; unfortunately, he then dropped the ball and let the marriage fade back into disrespect and taking him for granted. Hopefully, he is learning this time that when one takes you for granted, you simply must erect boundaries and accompanying consequences for breaking that boundary. It's simple psychology, and he can say it as lovingly and longingly as he wants to, while still maintaining the boundaries and consequences.
> 
> She CLEARLY is quite content to live the rest of her life just pushing him away from her except an occasional crumb, so for HER to want to change, she will have to see that cushy, no-responsibility life in jeopardy.
> 
> I see this as giving her a chance to meet him halfway.


How did she go to him? I thought she was crying in the bedroom, and he went to her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

*Quote:

Originally Posted by jld View Post 
*
To me it looks defensive and protective, Dave. I don't see strength in it. 

What could seem strong is, "I would like to try to understand you. I don't think I have done a good job of it, or I would not be in the situation I am. How do you think I could improve, wife? What am I doing/not doing that has hurt you?" That approach takes courage and emotional strength. Not for the faint of heart.

If after all that, things still are not working for them, he could say, "I feel like I have failed you. I just cannot seem to meet your needs. I want the best for you, and I think that cannot happen with me in the picture. I think it is time for us to pursue a fair, amicable divorce. Please know I will always treasure the life we shared, and will always hope the best for you." That would be a way to release her with love and appreciation. Should make it easier for both of them to heal.


*Blossom's response:*
He is still recognizing HIS limit which is where the leadership is. He is captain of his ship and he can choose what waters he puts it in. The rest is just different styles of communicating that.


----------



## turnera

Sure, and he can SAY all that and STILL say this is too much for me and it's been going on too long with no change; here's your opportunity to make it different because, without it changing, me leaving is the only course for me.


----------



## jld

I just do not see that as leadership, Blossom. I see it as self-protection. 

To me, leadership is expansive. It is sacrificing one's own comfort to serve others, particularly the less able.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> Sure, and he can SAY all that and STILL say this is too much for me and it's been going on too long with no change; here's your opportunity to make it different because, without it changing, me leaving is the only course for me.


Recognizing his limits is helpful. I just do not think he has reached them yet. I think his last post (on the other thread) indicated that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I don't think quitting at this point will help him grow. I think seeking to understand how he can influence her, and then changing how he is currently doing that, will help him grow.
> 
> I think we have different goals for him. That may be part of the disconnect.


There is certainly a time to self assess and see if recognizing a limit is wise or pushing past that limit is wise. Both can be growth.

You want him to push past as far as he can take it, which for me puts him in a danger zone of conditioning himself to receive abuse as normal. When you have long term behavior like this, this is the risk in taking this approach. 

I want him to recognize when he has pushed himself far enough and honor his limits, and recognize that relationships do not require that he stretch himself past his limits in order to keep it. Doing so too far or too long runs the risk of codependency, a destructive dynamic.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> There is certainly a time to self assess and see if recognizing a limit is wise or pushing past that limit is wise. Both can be growth.
> 
> You want him to push past as far as he can take it, which for me puts him in a danger zone of conditioning himself to receive abuse as normal. When you have long term behavior like this, this is the risk in taking this approach.
> 
> I want him to recognize when he has pushed himself far enough and honor his limits, and recognize that relationships do not require that he stretch himself past his limits in order to keep it. Doing so too far or too long runs the risk of codependency, a destructive dynamic.


Blossom, do you mind posting his last post here?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Recognizing his limits is helpful. I just do not think he has reached them yet. I think his last post (on the other thread) indicated that.


I think he is waffling because he is getting shamed over the idea of declaring a personal limit. That he won't be man enough or leader enough if he chooses that. 

I don't agree.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Blossom, do you mind posting his last post here?


Sam can if he feels like it. If you look at it compared to how he is feeling on this thread, I'm not sure it wasn't an attempt at people pleasing. I just think we can wait for him to respond here and see how he is feeling today.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sam can if he feels like it. If you look at it compared to how he is feeling on this thread, I'm not sure it wasn't an attempt at people pleasing. I just think we can wait for him to respond here and see how he is feeling today.


Okay, I will do it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I just do not see that as leadership, Blossom. I see it as self-protection.
> 
> To me, leadership is expansive. It is sacrificing one's own comfort to serve others, particularly the less able.


I get that.

But non of us are Jesus and one of the most liberating moments in my life as a daughter of an extreme narcissist was realizing that I did not have to give supernatural or hyper reasonable effort to unreasonable expectations, especially when they are moving targets. So yea.... sometimes its great to get off the crazy train.


----------



## jld

Sam's last post yesterday:


*Sam*--_I feel like I have set boundaries in the past. I have tried to enforce them and she has said 'F You'.

I need to be better. I can't set boundaries until I am better.

I know that it is very important to her that I eat better and that I exercise more. This is not unreasonable. I need to do this. 

I know that it is very important to her that I spend quality time with her. Talking to her, sharing my day. Listening to her. I need to be better at this.

In the past, I get upset because she has rejected me. I either suck up to her which is obvious to her and unattractive. Or I retreat and sulk which is even worse. I take it personally. Often when I approach her she says, "Why would I want to be close to you when you never talk to me?". 

In my head I am thinking "Why would I want to talk to you when you never want to be close to me. Why is it always me? Why are her needs more important than mine. I did talk to her. We spent all day Sunday together." I try to justify in my head why I am right and she is wrong.

I hate to admit it, but I think too often that I am working all day, I provide a nice home and nice things, I am at work while she is shopping, curling, working out etc. So my work is done and she owes me. But deep down I know that those things are not meeting her needs. Sure she likes them. But those things aren't what makes her happy.

Bottom line is I don't do a good enough job at meeting her needs. Until I do, I can't enforce any boundaries. I need to be at a place that when she rejects me, I have every right to say, "This is not acceptable!" That when she gets upset at some minor thing, I have every right to say, "This is not acceptable".

If in fact, because of the ACOH thing, she is creating chaos when things are too good, because it makes her uncomfortable, then we will need to talk about it. But we can't have that discussion honestly when I know I haven't been meeting her needs the way I can. 

I have a lot of work to do. I hope that she will follow. 

Work has been very busy today. I have a bunch to do. And I can't have my employees see me sitting here with tears in my eyes. Thanks Everyone._


----------



## MRR

Frankly, this woman is causing him unnecessary trauma. 

You know how I got my wife to want to have sex with me? When she gave me the ILYBINILWY speech, *I* called a lawyer and got the divorce started. When that happened, I finally got past nearly a decade of stagnation (non-growth!) and started becoming a better man and better person. 

Then, about a year after our divorce was final, ex wife wanted to (and still does) have sex with me.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Ok, so I'm going to flip this table right on it's head of what he thinks he HAS to do when he gets home.....

What man wouldn't LOVE to come home to this....

He hits the door, exhausted and finds her there, she has prepared great food, its calm silent, loving, she allows him to eat without demands on his attention, then leads him to their bedroom where she gives him a long soothing massage to lift the burdens of working hard all day from his shoulders. WITHOUT STRINGS ATTACHED. Just because....

She can choose to dote on him, can she not. 

Then if she let that soak in his mind for a while, what man wouldn't seek out her company and care about what she has to say?


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok, so I'm going to flip this table right on it's head of what he thinks he HAS to do when he gets home.....
> 
> What man wouldn't LOVE to come home to this....
> 
> He hits the door, exhausted and finds her there, she has prepared great food, its calm silent, loving, she allows him to eat without demands on his attention, then leads him to their bedroom where she gives him a long soothing massage to lift the burdens of working hard all day from his shoulders. WITHOUT STRINGS ATTACHED. Just because....
> 
> She can choose to dote on him, can she not.
> 
> Then if she let that soak in his mind for a while, what man wouldn't seek out her company and care about what she has to say?


I think that is a possible outcome . . . after he starts meeting her emotional needs.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I think that is a possible outcome . . . after he starts meeting her emotional needs.


That's transactional...

She can choose to do it from a position of gratitude, just love, any number of reasons, she can look past his pain and choose it anyway. 

There have been times my H was VERY prickly with me and we were BOTH reeling in pain, but I chose to be sacrificial anyway.... I walked up to him, cradled his face in my hands and softly, warmly kissed his cheek in total silence and in a way that communicated to him the depth of my love for him despite our issues at the time. Then I walked away with NO expectations. That choice to express love was my choice. I refused to put him on an emotional hook for it. It breathed faith into him that we would get through this and he reached back..... and remained committed to us.

Then there are times I've kicked his a$$. Both have worked when they were needed.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sam, as an individual what makes your heart happy? When are you the happiest?
> 
> And I have thought of an approach that may help, but wanted to ask this question first.


Tough question. What makes me happiest is helping others? I am in the software business. I like building things that make my clients happy. Love hearing how satisfied customers are.

Same with my wife. Probably sounds shallow, but I am happiest right after sex. When I know that she is satisfied. When we have been really close.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> That's transactional...
> 
> She can choose to do it from a position of gratitude, just love, any number of reasons, she can look past his pain and choose it anyway.
> 
> And he can do the same.
> 
> There have been times my H was VERY prickly with me and we were BOTH reeling in pain, but I chose to be sacrificial anyway.... I walked up to him, cradled his face in my hands and softly, warmly kissed his cheek in total silence and in a way that communicated to him the depth of my love for him despite our issues at the time. Then I walked away with NO expectations. That choice to express love was my choice. I refused to put him on an emotional hook for it. It breathed faith into him that we would get through this and he reached back..... and remained committed to us.
> 
> Then there are times I've kicked his a$$. Both have worked when they were needed.


----------



## naiveonedave

SadSamIAm said:


> Tough question. What makes me happiest is helping others? I am in the software business. I like building things that make my clients happy. Love hearing how satisfied customers are.
> 
> Same with my wife. Probably sounds shallow, but I am happiest right after sex. When I know that she is satisfied. When we have been really close.


just an observation: you seem get off making others happy, while ignoring your own happiness, as does your wife (by that I mean, she gets off on her own happiness at your expense). This is not a healthy dynamic.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@jld

When and where does his tank get filled?

especially when his efforts to get close are chronically rejected.


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> just an observation: you seem get off making others happy, while ignoring your own happiness, as does your wife (by that I mean, she gets off on her own happiness at your expense). This is not a healthy dynamic.


_She does not look very happy to me . . ._


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> @jld
> 
> When and where does his tank get filled?
> 
> especially when his efforts to get close are chronically rejected.


I think that will change as he gets stronger in himself and does not give to get. 

Blossom, do you see Sam as a victim?


----------



## bankshot1993

Sam, yours is a situation I am all to familiar with. My wife's interest in sex dropped off the map at a point in our relationship. In hindsight I understand now that there were a few factors that played a role in this.

My wife was forced into hysterectomy at the ripe old age of 38. By 40 she was starting to go through menopause. hormonal changes can play terrible tricks on a woman and when those changes happened her interest in sex disappeared. we went from having a very active sex life (around 3-5 times a week) to having an almost non existent sex life, and even then it was only at my insistence.

To say this had a devastating effect on my confidence is an understatement. I felt rejected, unwanted and undesirable. I couldn't shake the thoughts that I was such a troll that I even had to force my wife to have sex with me. This went on for years to the point where I just came to the conclusion that I was giving up. I decided "screw it, if she doesn't want me than fine, **** her." Besides, sex once every 3 or 4 weeks wasn't worth hanging around for. So I detached, became distant and withdrawn. Of course the wife noticed and questioned me on it and like a typical man I denied that anything was wrong. Things progressed in a downward spiral. She reached out to me everyway but the one way I wanted her to and I wasn't sharing how I felt and why.

One day the dam finally broke and we talked. I told her I was thinking about leaving and maybe it was time for a trial separation. She of course wanted to know why and I told her everything. I told about how I was feeling rejected and unwanted because of our non existent sex life and I had had enough. I told her that if she didn't want me than it was time I moved on and found somebody who did.

Here's the problem, I was so solid in my resolution up to the point that she shared her side. She shared with me how menopause had affected her. How body changes made sex painful for her, feminine dryness made her lady parts very uncomfortable for most of the day at times and hormone changes had robbed her of any desire to her favorite part of our relationship.

So the whole time I was wallowing in my own self doubt about my desirability she was fighting her own internal demons. Demons that left her feeling like less of a person, she was morning the loss of everything that made her a woman. Those losses in a lot of ways robbed her of her sexuality.

Needless to say, When we talked and took the time to actually share our feeling and our inner thoughts we gained insights into what drives each other and how our own self doubts were driving a wedge between us.

I won't go into all the things that have happened in the many years since then but I will say that conversation added years to our relationship. I came out of it with a better understanding of the pressure I was putting on her and she made more of an effort to stay physically engaged in our relationship. 

Men need the physical connection on a regular basis in order to feel the emotional connection and women are the opposite, they need to feel the emotional intimacy in order to have a desire for the physical connection. I learned that seduction didn't start when you went to bed, seduction started at the breakfast table when you get up in the morning. when she feels loved and desired during the day when you are doing all the things that aren't intimate, it will increase her physical desires when you are intimate.

Our conversation also motivated her to get medical help for her issues regarding feminine dryness. She was put on hormone replacement therapy and directed to a few creams and ointments that helped with personal lubrication and feminine dryness. She puts in a greater effort to maintain the physical end of things and I try to stay more in tune with her emotional needs.

We are still having some relationship issues but frequency of sex isn't one of them (most of the time). So remember romance her in the afternoon and she'll surprise you at night. When she feels desired and attractive she'll be looking for the man that made her feel that way for a little loving in the bedroom.


----------



## naiveonedave

@jld - here is Sam's problem, he has tried to meet her needs, but she is too narcissistic. She may not be getting her needs met, but she clearly prefers to abuse Sam as opposed to anything else. Clearly this relationship is so far 'normal' that just meeting her needs with either kill him or won't be enough for her.

If he is to get stronger, he won't put up with her bull anymore, which will actually take him further down the boundaries and 180 path.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> Tough question. What makes me happiest is helping others? I am in the software business. I like building things that make my clients happy. Love hearing how satisfied customers are.
> 
> Same with my wife. Probably sounds shallow, but I am happiest right after sex. When I know that she is satisfied. When we have been really close.


Sex with the woman you love fills your love tank.

Why with her.... or are you starting to question if this should be the case.

Was there a time when your relationship was different and sex was a freer exchange... what was different back then? or has she always been this way, you were just more excepting of it then and now are growing tired of it.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> I'm posting this message here from the "she divorced me cause... thread and will probably finish my talking over here... here goes....
> 
> One issue I see as an on going issue with them is when S2 wants him near and when he does, she is prickly.
> 
> So, one boundary issue I would work on if I were him would be to target this push pull he's getting.
> 
> So lets say she's been after him to talk to her and he keeps trying and trying and every single time she is a barbed porcupine. If I were in his shoes, ESPECIALLY if he is kind, considerate, has already attempted hearing her and being warm, I would say something to the effect of "It is an extremely unpleasant experience following invitations to heart connect through talking, bring my whole heart to the conversation, then find myself running into the barbs of your porcupine attitude, so when you choose to put the porcupine quills away, I will be back to talk. Until then I will not be subjecting myself to this chronic pain. I'm choosing to not live like that any longer, no one should have to."
> 
> Then anytime after that if she invites to talk and he KNOWS he is in the clear on his care for her and the quills come out again, he can simply say "I'm not talking to porcupine quills" and hit that truth drum regular until the behavior disappears. She is CHOOSING those quills and she can choose to lay them down.
> 
> Now if she wants to come back around and tell him .... "ok, I hear you, but those quills are there because of xyz", then they can get to the bottom of xyz, but he does not have to live in chronic pain like that. He can work on detachment and self fulfillment, which I feel both will help to mitigate "some" of the impact of her actions, but it's not going to eliminate all of it and at the end of the day it still has to be addressed. Taking it too far into acceptance is the beginning of conditioning yourself to accept abusive attitudes, words, deeds and that can expand too far. So part of this is Sam recognizing how much he can legitimately take and how much he can't then make it known what he will and will not accept. This push pull is one of the MAIN issues between the two of them.
> 
> He may have more self assessment on his contribution to the push pull, but sometimes the boundary will serve to give him space to breathe and heal, before he has everything figured out. He needs a break, that much is crystal clear to me. Its very telling to me that his daughter was proud of him for moving out and standing up to his wife. She does not like how her mother treats him. And she is boots on the ground.


This is very true. It is what I have been dealing with the last couple of days. 

I have been trying to commit to meeting her needs. I know she wants me to care about my diet and health. So I have been working out the past couple of days (very stiff and sore right now).

I have also been trying to talk to her. I have left my phone off so I am present. But I am getting quills as you say. One word or no word answers. With the tone of 'leave me alone'. I feel like I am having to 'suck up to her' to get her to talk and that is something I don't want to do. This is a boundary that I have to establish and be clear when it happens to call her out on it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I think that will change as he gets stronger in himself and does not give to get.
> 
> Blossom, do you see Sam as a victim?


I see him as a human with reasonable limits.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> This is very true. It is what I have been dealing with the last couple of days.
> 
> I have been trying to commit to meeting her needs. I know she wants me to care about my diet and health. So I have been working out the past couple of days (very stiff and sore right now).
> 
> I have also been trying to talk to her. I have left my phone off so I am present. But I am getting quills as you say. One word or no word answers. With the tone of 'leave me alone'. I feel like I am having to 'suck up to her' to get her to talk and that is something I don't want to do. This is a boundary that I have to establish and be clear when it happens to call her out on it.


I agree. It is impossible to get near a barbed porcupine.

I see a LOT of women doing this....

come be with me and then when the men do.... they get injured. And wonder why the men stop coming around.


----------



## SadSamIAm

turnera said:


> Obviously you guys make a lot of money. So I'm going to assume $200,000 isn't gonna kill you.
> 
> So I'll ask you: Is it worth $200,000/year to free you from misery and so you can go out and start ENJOYING your life, having wild and crazy sex with beautiful and engaging women, and looking forward to getting up each morning?
> 
> And in the meantime, practice one easy thing: If she is 'prickly,' or insulting, or sarcastic, or demeaning, simply do one thing - say (out loud) "Ouch!" and then TURN AROUND AND WALK AWAY. Every single time she does it, say Ouch! and leave the room. Trust me, she'll figure it out. She'll also start to realize that HER actions result in YOUR action. And maybe, just maybe, she'll start to respect you as YOU are starting to respect you.
> 
> Have you read Hold On To Your N.U.T.s? It would do you some good.


I have spent a lifetime building what we have. 

When things are good. Like when we are together all the time on a holiday somewhere. We get along great. Lots of laughs. Lots of intimacy and we like the same things.

That is what keeps me hanging on. 

Could I have a good life without her? Probably. But I don't want that. Yet.


----------



## jld

How are you trying to talk to her, Sam?

She is probably hurt by the ski trip. Writing her a sincere apology might get talks going.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> How are you trying to talk to her, Sam?
> 
> She is probably hurt by the ski trip. Writing her a sincere apology might get talks going.


Apology for?


----------



## naiveonedave

Blossom Leigh said:


> Apology for?


exactly

BTW, that is not leadership. Leaders should rarely apologize, it makes them weak. Especially if they haven't done anything to apologize for.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok, so I'm going to flip this table right on it's head of what he thinks he HAS to do when he gets home.....
> 
> What man wouldn't LOVE to come home to this....
> 
> He hits the door, exhausted and finds her there, she has prepared great food, its calm silent, loving, she allows him to eat without demands on his attention, then leads him to their bedroom where she gives him a long soothing massage to lift the burdens of working hard all day from his shoulders. WITHOUT STRINGS ATTACHED. Just because....
> 
> She can choose to dote on him, can she not.
> 
> Then if she let that soak in his mind for a while, what man wouldn't seek out her company and care about what she has to say?


Right now, I can't see this happening. I see it as me coming home. Reaching out to hug her and getting to she is too busy, to leave her alone. 

But when we were in Niagara Falls and we got into our room and opened up the curtains to view of the falls, she turned and started taking off my clothes. It was one of the best moments of my life. In the middle of the afternoon.


----------



## jld

He said he refused to meet her for the weekend. I think it hurt her feelings.

I think apologies definitely show strength. They do need to be sincere, though. If they are coerced, they are not meaningful.


----------



## turnera

Who says he's not meeting her emotional needs? Seems to me like he's the ONLY one meeting needs right now.


----------



## jld

They are obviously not met.


----------



## naiveonedave

jld said:


> He said he refused to meet her for the weekend. I think it hurt her feelings.
> 
> I think apologies definitely show strength. They do need to be sincere, though. If they are coerced, they are not meaningful.


I don't think he can give her a meaningful apology to this, as he believes that it was the right thing to do....


----------



## turnera

SadSamIAm said:


> I have spent a lifetime building what we have.
> 
> When things are good. Like when we are together all the time on a holiday somewhere. We get along great. Lots of laughs. Lots of intimacy and we like the same things.
> 
> That is what keeps me hanging on.
> 
> Could I have a good life without her? Probably. But I don't want that. Yet.


Ok, then, what are you prepared to change to get a better marriage?


----------



## naiveonedave

jld said:


> They are obviously not met.


If she is as narcissistic as she appears, her needs never get met. It is impossible.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> Right now, I can't see this happening. I see it as me coming home. Reaching out to hug her and getting to she is too busy, to leave her alone.
> 
> But when we were in Niagara Falls and we got into our room and opened up the curtains to view of the falls, she turned and started taking off my clothes. It was one of the best moments of my life. In the middle of the afternoon.


Interesting.... "away" inspires her

So... what is at home that doesn't inspire her? 

Does she work?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> He said he refused to meet her for the weekend. I think it hurt her feelings.
> 
> I think apologies definitely show strength. They do need to be sincere, though. If they are coerced, they are not meaningful.



She knew going into that weekend that that is a time of the year he CANT meet her. 

Her upset therefore is on her and she is using her emotions as a weapon in an unreasonable manner.

She should be the one apologizing.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I don't think quitting at this point will help him grow. I think seeking to understand how he can influence her, and then changing how he is currently doing that, will help him grow.
> 
> I think we have different goals for him. That may be part of the disconnect.


Judgemental much? Narrow minded...again. The only person that views this as quitting is you.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I just do not see that as leadership, Blossom. I see it as self-protection.
> 
> To me, leadership is expansive. It is sacrificing one's own comfort to serve others, particularly the less able.


It is also recognizing when you have sacrificed enough.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> Right now, I can't see this happening. I see it as me coming home. Reaching out to hug her and getting to *she is too busy*, to leave her alone.
> 
> But when we were in Niagara Falls and we got into our room and opened up the curtains to view of the falls, she turned and started taking off my clothes. It was one of the best moments of my life. In the middle of the afternoon.


What's making her "busy" at home? The perfectionism?

But when yall are away and she doesn't have to worry about that, she comes out of that mode.. Would you say that is accurate?

So, I have a second boundary for you to consider.....


----------



## Blossom Leigh

This is how I would approach her on this issue...

S2, I want you to consider allowing me to lift a burden off of you. I have noticed when we go out of town and you don't have to worry about a spotless home and are weighed down with domestic life, you blossom into this amazingly affectionate woman who makes my soul soar. I would love to see her at home. I want that to be a big part of our life at home and the only way I see that happening is if MUCH of those burdens are lifted off of you, so I'm asking you to allow me to bring in the right people to do these things for you (since you guys appear to have the money) and lets see where it takes us in our relationship, that way we can really expand our experiences that we have away into our home. As a man... I deeply need this part of you and WANT this part of you.

This one is a trickier boundary because you will be bumping straight into her home pride and her ability to let go. But I think more women would be more fulfilled if they allowed the help and choose instead to swim in their husbands world unfettered.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sex with the woman you love fills your love tank.
> 
> Why with her.... or are you starting to question if this should be the case.
> 
> Was there a time when your relationship was different and sex was a freer exchange... what was different back then? or has she always been this way, you were just more excepting of it then and now are growing tired of it.


For the first 5 years or so it was much better. But it wasn't like she was the one to initiate. Just when I did, she was always receptive.

I think I was accepting of it. I think the more accepting of it I am, the more she does it.

I think it might have something to do with the stage of life she is at. Her life has been mom and that is coming to an end. Also menopause is starting. I think she isn't feeling very good about herself.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> For the first 5 years or so it was much better. But it wasn't like she was the one to initiate. Just when I did, she was always receptive.
> 
> I think I was accepting of it. I think the more accepting of it I am, the more she does it.
> 
> I think it might have something to do with the stage of life she is at. Her life has been mom and that is coming to an end. Also menopause is starting. I think she isn't feeling very good about herself.


Sure, it could be playing into it.

As well as it getting harder to keep doing all she is doing at her age.

I think its time she let some things go, so she is more available and that is where my boundary would be. "I need you more available, what can we do to make that happen?"


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Judgemental much? Narrow minded...again. The only person that views this as quitting is you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


If we all saw this the same way, the convos would be boring, far.


----------



## turnera

SadSamIAm said:


> For the first 5 years or so it was much better. But it wasn't like she was the one to initiate. Just when I did, she was always receptive.
> 
> I think I was accepting of it. I think the more accepting of it I am, the more she does it.
> 
> I think it might have something to do with the stage of life she is at. Her life has been mom and that is coming to an end. Also menopause is starting. I think she isn't feeling very good about herself.


How long have you been married? Five good years out of how many?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> How long have you been married? Five good years out of how many?


30


----------



## jld

She really does not seem like a leader, Sam. No initiation ever.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> This is how I would approach her on this issue...
> 
> S2, I want you to consider allowing me to lift a burden off of you. I have noticed when we go out of town and you don't have to worry about a spotless home and are weighed down with domestic life, you blossom into this amazingly affectionate woman who makes my soul soar. I would love to see her at home. I want that to be a big part of our life at home and the only way I see that happening is if MUCH of those burdens are lifted off of you, so I'm asking you to allow me to bring in the right people to do these things for you (since you guys appear to have the money) and lets see where it takes us in our relationship, that way we can really expand our experiences that we have away into our home. As a man... I deeply need this part of you and WANT this part of you.
> 
> This one is a trickier boundary because you will be bumping straight into her home pride and her ability to let go. But I think more women would be more fulfilled if they allowed the help and choose instead to swim in their husbands world unfettered.


She is a SAHM. Kids are grown and she is having a tough time feeling valuable. Taking away the cooking and cleaning would make it worse. She would never agree to it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> She really does not seem like a leader, Sam. No initiation ever.


That is incorrect


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> That is incorrect


How so?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> She is a SAHM. Kids are grown and she is having a tough time feeling valuable. Taking away the cooking and cleaning would make it worse. She would never agree to it.


Do you feel that is what triggered the Niagra Falls initiation was that trip made her feel valuable?

I believe she may need to find something to shift her value "TO" like serving in a soup kitchen, tending to people in need, etc... 

she has self, value all on her own, so I certainly see value in encouraging her in that area as well as help her find a surrogate need besides that which she keeps herself busy with

BUT, Sam.... at the end of the day... if she WANTED to make time for you.... she would drop that stuff like a hot potato

So she is STILL choosing to not open herself up to you when y'all are at home, its just easier to find things to distract herself with when she is at home.... super easy excuses... don't buy that 100%

Consider the other, but don't forget to balance it with your B.S. meter.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> How so?


Niagra Falls


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Niagra Falls


That's true. She did initiate at Niagara Falls.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> For the first 5 years or so it was much better. *But it wasn't like she was the one to initiate. * Just when I did, she was always receptive.
> 
> I think I was accepting of it. I think the more accepting of it I am, the more she does it.
> 
> I think it might have something to do with the stage of life she is at. Her life has been mom and that is coming to an end. Also menopause is starting. I think she isn't feeling very good about herself.


This is why I said she never initiated.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sure, it could be playing into it.
> 
> As well as it getting harder to keep doing all she is doing at her age.
> 
> I think its time she let some things go, so she is more available and that is where my boundary would be. "I need you more available, what can we do to make that happen?"


She is busy. But it is her own doing. She is a SAHM and the kids are grown. One has moved out and the other two are in university but living at home.

Not sure what I could take off her plate. I try to help with supper and clean up when I am home. This is one of things I stop doing when I get cranky about being rejected. I plan to stop doing that. Only makes things worse.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> That's true. She did initiate at Niagara Falls.


So, this is how I view that....

Horse analogy...

She demonstrated she has the capacity and at times the willingness to initiate. 

Much like the horse in the pasture who no matter how many different ways you tried and you tried everything in your capacity to get that horse to do a flying lead change and you couldn't get the horse to do one, yet you turn it loose in the pasture and it just happens on its own. She possesses the capacity. Tells me she is unwilling when Sam asks.

Typically when a horse won't partner in a move it is due to one of four things...

Either they are distracted (*bored with you*) and didn't hear the communication, thus you have to get their attention and ask for their partnership. This one takes the type of leadership, creativity and provacativeness that when you enter the room they don't want to take their eyes off of you BECAUSE they don't want to miss a thing.

Or they do NOT like the rude tone and refuse and possibly strike back

OR the communication is unclear and they are confused, leaves them afraid

OR the fourth one is a rebellious streak, and they thumb their nose at you



You have to manage the horse (aka spouse) that shows up... because it can also be a blend of these.

Horses emotions mirror humans a LOT and I have learned the most about relational energy from interacting with my horses.

You have to ask for respect in a way that gains respect.

And also meet needs.

You cannot MAKE a horse do anything.

AND you HAVE to keep their interest

Same thing with our spouses. They have to be invited to partner with us. But... they cannot be allowed to be destructive in our space. It takes balance between these issues to progress.

And they have to find your invitation intriguing


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> She is busy. But it is her own doing. She is a SAHM and the kids are grown. One has moved out and the other two are in university but living at home.
> 
> Not sure what I could take off her plate. I try to help with supper and clean up when I am home. *This is one of things I stop doing when I get cranky about being rejected. I plan to stop doing that. Only makes things worse*.


Not helping makes it worse? Or helping makes it worse?


----------



## turnera

SadSamIAm said:


> She is a SAHM. Kids are grown and she is having a tough time feeling valuable. Taking away the cooking and cleaning would make it worse. She would never agree to it.


Then have a conversation about what else she wants to do with her life. Encourage her. Help her. If she doesn't need to work, she could become very valuable as a volunteer somewhere. 

And you've only gotten good sex for the first 5 years out of 30?! :surprise:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> This is why I said she never initiated.


We have to take it all in. Niagra is part of that picture.


----------



## SadSamIAm

turnera said:


> Then have a conversation about what else she wants to do with her life. Encourage her. Help her. If she doesn't need to work, she could become very valuable as a volunteer somewhere.
> 
> And you've only gotten good sex for the first 5 years out of 30?! :surprise:


I would say the first 5 years were great sex.

Then kids and it slowed down for a number of years. It was easy to understand being rejected then, as we were very busy. We were closer as we were raising kids and we spent a bunch of time together.

When the kids became teenagers we had some arguments and this has caused some resentment on her part.

Last 5 or 6 years have been pretty bad and getting worse.

We have sex maybe a couple of times a month. It often feels like duty sex because I am the one initiating and being rejected. But once we get started, it is usually pretty good.


----------



## turnera

Have you read MMSLP?


----------



## naiveonedave

Just my opinion, but if/when you get rejected, just leave the house for awhile. that prevents her from seeing you mope and will make her wonder what you are up to. Go do something like work out or grab a beer w/whatever buddy you can or buy the groceries or whatever.

It comes across very bad to mope after rejection.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Sam, it feels like there is a secret in that Niagra vs home spot and there may be a boundary laying there, waiting be defined.

I know you are processing a lot

Each boundary we find translates into "hi, my name is Sam, this is who I am"

I choose to accept me

I choose to accept my reasonable limits

These are the behaviors I want in my life

These are the behaviors I don't want in my life

Then you could insert Spouse for me/my and say the same thing....

You will see a framework emerge for both of you to operate from 

Sometimes it produces a path forward together

Sometimes.... it doesn't


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> I would say the first 5 years were great sex.
> 
> Then kids and it slowed down for a number of years. It was easy to understand being rejected then, as we were very busy. We were closer as we were raising kids and we spent a bunch of time together.
> 
> When the kids became teenagers we had some arguments and this has caused some resentment on her part.
> 
> Last 5 or 6 years have been pretty bad and getting worse.
> 
> We have sex maybe a couple of times a month. It often feels like duty sex because I am the one initiating and being rejected. But once we get started, it is usually pretty good.


That resentment needs to be resolved.


----------



## SadSamIAm

turnera said:


> Have you read MMSLP?


Yes. I agree with some of it. Some of it is over the top.

I have read all the books suggested. I need to re-read them.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Sounds to me like she needs to get a job. The kids are grown, there is no need to stay at home any more...she is stagnating. Maybe she should look into going to school and working towards a degree, if she doesn't have one. It appears that she opens up when her mind is stimulated, like when you guys vacation together.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> That resentment needs to be resolved.


What happened and why is she still hanging onto resentment?

Because that resentment is now being destructive... is also an area for a potential boundary.. 

If you have been all you can be regarding resolution of that resentment, then she is willfully choosing to exact retribution and if she is unwilling to do the work within herself to resolve it and let it go in order to protect your marriage, then your belly full and leaving is natural consequence to her choice, therefore, if your interest is to prevent that, then a boundary here would be *for* the marriage. 

I will add that if you recognize that she is being destructive and you allow her to continue in that path without calling attention to it and inviting her to partner with you to plug the holes in this marriage ship by doing her part, then you become complicit with her in it sinking.

If this doesn't resonate... no worries.


----------



## turnera

SadSamIAm said:


> Yes. I agree with some of it. Some of it is over the top.
> 
> I have read all the books suggested. I need to re-read them.


His Needs Her Needs?


----------



## jld

You said she felt resentful that you did not have her back with the kids. That might be good to bring up. 

That book, _Hold Me Tight_, talks about bringing up hurtful moments and being able to hear your spouse's pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> Not helping makes it worse? Or helping makes it worse?


I am going to try to stop getting cranky. Whether I get cranky or not, I am not going to stop helping with things.


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> That resentment needs to be resolved.


It will never be resolved as long as it serves it's purpose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

SadSamIAm said:


> My wife is not an affectionate person. She doesn't accept hugs or cuddling. She never initiates them. So when we do cuddle/hug it does typically lead to sex.


I think you probably have that backwards. Your wife is not affectionate because she believes that since it typically leads to sex, she's not willing to even hug or cuddle unless she's willing to have sex. She may want to be more affectionate, but she's simply afraid you'll mistake it for initiating sex.



SadSamIAm said:


> When I say initiate, I mean I reach over to hug her or just hold her hand. 95% of the time that we have sex, it begins with me giving her a back massage. She has 'responsive desire' which means that it takes a while for her to 'want' sex. I rub her back, stroke her hair and talk to her. Can be for an hour or more. As I said, I have learned when to go from that to being more sexual. Usually it is when she pushes her butt back towards me, or puts my hand on her breast.


See, I'd hazard a guess that she thinks SHE'S the one initiating sex in that series of events. She's getting some nice cuddle time and nonsexual physical attention, where it does not appear you expect it to lead to automatic sex. Then, she gets frisky and initiates.

She's never going to seek you out from another room and initiate sex. It just won't occur to her, with responsive desire.



SadSamIAm said:


> The only thing that leads to more sex is me being persistent. I finally get through her barriers and then she tells me how sorry she was for being so cold. But I end up feeling like not desired or loved or cared about. It doesn't feel like duty sex, because she gets into it. I always make sure she cums. But it still feels like I had to force her to want me.


Whoa whoa whoa. NEVER think of sex as pushing through her barriers. So you've learned that your wife needs an hour or so of affectionate physical non-sexual touch and conversation before she initiates sex. You are not pushing through any barriers to avoid rejection. You are creating an environment of intimacy for her. You really need to reframe your thinking on this issue.



SadSamIAm said:


> It really sucks being married to someone that feels this way about sex. You have sex and everything is great. Then after a few days she gets cold to me because she doesn't want me to think that she might want sex.


So her preferred frequency is less than every few days. She gets cold because she knows that warmth leads to sex. It has nothing to do with you or the marriage.



SadSamIAm said:


> Isn't that screwed up?
> Is sex with me that terrible?
> 
> I don't expect her to just have sex every time I want to but you would think that after showing I want sex, that the next day or two she might approach me. That she might care about my happiness.
> 
> Shouldn't your wife want to have sex with you?


Obviously, she does, or she wouldn't do it, and she wouldn't enjoy it. She's just not the approaching type. That bit you said about her being upset one weekend morning when you left the house instead of going into the bedroom as you usually do (can't find it right now to quote it, sorry). She was lying there, in bed, waiting for you, hoping for the usual non-sexual affection so she could initiate sex in an hour or so, and you disappointed her.

If you want to be married to an approaching type, you have to find another woman. You can't magically transform this one into an approacher. But I think if you learned to recognize her very subtle signals of receptiveness to your approach, you might be able to reframe your thoughts.

You can't change her. You can only change yourself.

Buy a 'how-to guide' to massage. I bet she'll be as thrilled as other women would be to receive lingerie.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I am going to try to stop getting cranky. Whether I get cranky or not, I am not going to stop helping with things.


I really like this. You are focused on getting the job done, emotions notwithstanding.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Hopeful Cynic brought up some angles/possibilities that were not on my radar, because frankly I have a hard time understanding chronically cold women, but made me wonder... When you reach out for her to pet on her, do you ever mix it up and just love/pet on her from a good mood and then stop, or is that always your signal for sex?

If it is always your signal for sex, mix it up in a way that keeps her guessing. Break the pattern. I think in a lot of long term marriages, chronic resentment aside, are about pattern interrupts to keep them fresh.

In this case I dont think its the sole issue, but could certainly be a layer of it. It might be why Niagra triggered her initiation. Change of scenery. Different pattern.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> I am going to try to stop getting cranky. Whether I get cranky or not, I am not going to stop helping with things.


Good idea, adding destruction to destruction does compound the issues. Adding construction, help or at least put peace in your heart of being the best you.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Very telling that you are happiest after sex. You've been conditioned to despise yourself and resolve this feeling with sex. Sorry that just isn't healthy to me.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Very telling that you are happiest after sex. You've been conditioned to despise yourself and resolve this feeling with sex. Sorry that just isn't healthy to me.


VERY interesting take and great angle to bring up to self assess on.


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Very telling that you are happiest after sex. You've been conditioned to despise yourself and resolve this feeling with sex. Sorry that just isn't healthy to me.


I don't think his wife has any such intention.


----------



## MRR

Ok so this has been going on for over 2 weeks now. 

My questions are--

What specifically has the OP changed in the last 2 weeks?

What has been the response/outcome? 

*****Is the OP happy with the changes or the course going forward or is this still a miserable situation with no real change in sight? *****


----------



## Acoa

Hi Sam, I'm a bit late to the party, I'll read through your thread in a bit. But I noticed in another thread you mentioned her father was an alcoholic and that your W may have some lingering effects from childhood. Not sure if you've discovered the ACA website yet and the resources there. It's Adult Children of Alcoholics

As my marriage descended into hell and I began on my self work I discovered the program. It was too late to save my marriage, but it has saved my life. When I read "The Laundry List" below, I had an 'aha' moment. It was like someone wrote about me. lol. 

And it's not about being crazy, or broken or needing to be fixed. But I can say that it's helped me see my life from a new perspective, and I'm much happier for it. 

The Laundry List – 14 Traits of an Adult Child of an Alcoholic

1-We became isolated and afraid of people and authority figures.
2-We became approval seekers and lost our identity in the process.
3-We are frightened by angry people and any personal criticism.
4-We either become alcoholics, marry them or both, or find another compulsive personality such as a workaholic to fulfill our sick abandonment needs.
5-We live life from the viewpoint of victims and we are attracted by that weakness in our love and friendship relationships.
6-We have an overdeveloped sense of responsibility and it is easier for us to be concerned with others rather than ourselves; this enables us not to look too closely at our own faults, etc.
7-We get guilt feelings when we stand up for ourselves instead of giving in to others.
8-We became addicted to excitement.
9-We confuse love and pity and tend to "love" people we can "pity" and "rescue."
10-We have "stuffed" our feelings from our traumatic childhoods and have lost the ability to feel or express our feelings because it hurts so much (Denial).
11-We judge ourselves harshly and have a very low sense of self-esteem.
12-We are dependent personalities who are terrified of abandonment and will do anything to hold on to a relationship in order not to experience painful abandonment feelings, which we received from living with sick people who were never there emotionally for us.
13-Alcoholism is a family disease; and we became para-alcoholics and took on the characteristics of that disease even though we did not pick up the drink.
14-Para-alcoholics are reactors rather than actors.
Source -Tony A., 1978

Pay close attention to the dichotomy of 4 and 12. We pick people who may not be the healthiest choice, then work like heck to try and keep them, often losing ourselves. If we find ourselves with someone healthy, we get bored. There is no 'excitement' (aka fear), which is what was modeled for us by our parents. If it's not there on it's own, we create it. 

Not sure if that fits your W or not, but I hope it helps.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I think you probably have that backwards. Your wife is not affectionate because she believes that since it typically leads to sex, she's not willing to even hug or cuddle unless she's willing to have sex. She may want to be more affectionate, but she's simply afraid you'll mistake it for initiating sex.
> 
> 
> 
> See, I'd hazard a guess that she thinks SHE'S the one initiating sex in that series of events. She's getting some nice cuddle time and nonsexual physical attention, where it does not appear you expect it to lead to automatic sex. Then, she gets frisky and initiates.
> 
> She's never going to seek you out from another room and initiate sex. It just won't occur to her, with responsive desire.
> 
> Whoa whoa whoa. NEVER think of sex as pushing through her barriers. So you've learned that your wife needs an hour or so of affectionate physical non-sexual touch and conversation before she initiates sex. You are not pushing through any barriers to avoid rejection. You are creating an environment of intimacy for her. You really need to reframe your thinking on this issue.
> 
> So her preferred frequency is less than every few days. She gets cold because she knows that warmth leads to sex. It has nothing to do with you or the marriage.


I agree somewhat. If a person is HD, it is difficult to not get aroused when being close, after not being intimate for 10 days or so. 

If there is affection most days, then it wouldn't lead to sex all the time. 

I agree that she might think that at that point she initiated. But the relationship would be pretty terrible if we both only put in that much effort.



> Obviously, she does, or she wouldn't do it, and she wouldn't enjoy it. She's just not the approaching type. That bit you said about her being upset one weekend morning when you left the house instead of going into the bedroom as you usually do (can't find it right now to quote it, sorry). She was lying there, in bed, waiting for you, hoping for the usual non-sexual affection so she could initiate sex in an hour or so, and you disappointed her.


The problem is that 90% of the time, when I enter the bedroom and approach her she gets mad. I lay down beside her and she complains. "Why do you always have to bother me?" "Leave me alone" "Go watch TV"

How am I supposed to know when she is laying there hoping I am going to join her and when she wants to be left alone when she never tells me?



> If you want to be married to an approaching type, you have to find another woman. You can't magically transform this one into an approacher. But I think if you learned to recognize her very subtle signals of receptiveness to your approach, you might be able to reframe your thoughts.
> 
> You can't change her. You can only change yourself.


I agree but it is very difficult being the only one to put in effort and when you do, to get rejected. 



> Buy a 'how-to guide' to massage.


Massage story. A couple of years back I bought a massage table from Costco. She often has a sore back and so I thought it would be a good idea for us. It is much more comfortable giving someone a massage when on a table that laying in bed. For both people.

When the table arrived, she complained that it was a waste of money. After a couple of days, I set it up in the bedroom. I bought the warming pad and a couple of warm blankets. Had it all warm for her. I lit some candles and downloaded some sounds of waves from the internet for music. After some prodding, she reluctantly agree to go lay down on it. 

I had some coconut oil warmed up and proceeded to give her a massage. I have had a few massages myself and had read a bit about how to give them. So I started at her feet and moved up her legs. Did her hands and arms. Massaged her neck and shoulders where they are normally sore. 

She started getting aroused. Started touching me while I was massaging her. Turned into a pretty good time. I was expecting to give her a massage and she made it sexual. I am not complaining. It was great.

Afterwards she talked about how she owed me a massage and I agreed.

Well a couple of days later she started complaining about the table. How it was so large and took up so much room (we have a 4500 ft2 house). That it was a waste of money and that we would never use it. For days she complained. Never once brought up my massage. 

After 10 days of complaining I returned it. Then she complained that I returned it. 

I think the thought of it being there and her promise to give me a massage was causing so much pressure on her that it was making her uneasy.





> I bet she'll be as thrilled as other women would be to receive lingerie.


I have some stories about this but won't bore you with them. Other than she does like lingerie. I have and do buy it for her. It is used very seldom, but when she does wear it, it is great.

These stories are why my marriage is so frustrating. It can be very cold for many weeks. Other than when we are vacation (2 or 3 weeks a year) and maybe a couple of days during the year.

When it is good. It is great. 

The ACOA thing really resonates with me. It is like things can be very good and when it is like that, it makes her uncomfortable. She seems to create chaos for no apparent reason. That description and a few others make me think that the way she operates could be caused by the way her house operated when growing up.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Sam, that is so sad.... she has GOT to be miserable in that state.

And yet, what do you do, if she remains unaware.

Once I became aware and started doing the ACOA work, I never understood how deep some of this issues run. 

I will probably dig back into the work again soon. The work really is never fully over, but the changes can be drastic.

Makes me hurt for her that she doesn't know.


----------



## SadSamIAm

MRR said:


> Ok so this has been going on for over 2 weeks now.
> 
> My questions are--
> 
> What specifically has the OP changed in the last 2 weeks?
> 
> What has been the response/outcome?
> 
> *****Is the OP happy with the changes or the course going forward or is this still a miserable situation with no real change in sight? *****


For many years we have been going through the same cycles. We have a few good days and then we start fighting. Usually over some insignificant thing. 

In the past I either, suck up, try to make things better. Or get angry and withdraw. It always ends up with me being the one to 'make up'. 

It has been getting worse and worse and each time it has been getting harder to want to 'make up'. 

This time I was digging in my heals. Just spending my time away from her. Thinking if she wants the relationship, she will have to show me, because I am done being the only one that cares.

Through these discussions on these threads, I have come to realize that I have been handling things wrong.

I need to be a better husband. I also need to call her on it when she brings up insignificant issues to cause a fight (I know this will be tough for me). 

So the last three days I have been working out and eating better (one of her complaints) and I have started trying to talk to her and spending time with her even though she is being 'prickly' ("So now you are going to talk to me after ignoring me for three weeks"). I asked her if she would go out for supper with me tonight (a couple of days ago) and she said no. This morning I reminded her that we could still go out tonight and that she should let me know if she changed her mind. She didn't say anything back. 

She is starting to warm up to me. It will take time for her to trust me that I am actually changing (not just talk), but I am hopeful things will be better sooner rather than later.

Last night she '**** tested' me and my son was right there. I just finished getting a glass of water. We have a water dispenser on the front of the fridge. Just as I finished filling my glass, she starts wiping the fridge and says "If people would just leave there glass there for two seconds, there wouldn't be drips on the tray for me to wipe up". My son is standing right there and he immediately smirks and says, "Like this" and pushes the lever so water pours out into the tray and down the front of the fridge. My wife actually smiled as she walked away. My son wiped up the front of the fridge. I am pretty sure she wouldn't have smiled if I had done that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

LOL.... you gotta love sons...


----------



## MRR

So you think being a better husband is going to change these cycles? You think being nicer and nicer to her is going to fix this? 

Good luck, friend. She has zero respect for you and kissing her a** is not going to change that. You are heading down the wrong path.


----------



## turnera

Every time a wife b*tches and the husband stands there and just takes it, the wife hates him a little bit more.

"Ok, next time I'll just ask you to get the water for me."


----------



## SadSamIAm

MRR said:


> So you think being a better husband is going to change these cycles? You think being nicer and nicer to her is going to fix this?
> 
> Good luck, friend. She has zero respect for you and kissing her a** is not going to change that. You are heading down the wrong path.


There are some things I need to do better. 

When she says, "How do you expect me to want to be close to you when you never talk to me?" she has a point.

I need to do some work to ensure we are spending quality time together. Once this is happening, I need her to put in some effort.

I also need to get in better shape. It has only been three days, but I am feeling better about myself. Feels good to have sore muscles. 

Once I am doing my end, I intend to quit kissing her ass and call her out when she is being unreasonable and/or not holding up her end. I know I will struggle with this part, but that is my plan.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> Every time a wife b*tches and the husband stands there and just takes it, *the wife hates him a little bit more.*
> 
> "Ok, next time I'll just ask you to get the water for me."


Why do you think the bolded, turnera?

The point of "*****"ing at him, imo, is to release some of her frustration, and to get his attention. She seems scared to tell him about it directly. 

His wife obviously has resentment. Sam needs to open up that resentment and help her heal from it.

Sam, how do you think you could do that?


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> Why do you think the bolded, turnera?
> 
> The point of "*****"ing at him, imo, is to release some of her frustration, and to get his attention. She seems scared to tell him about it directly.
> 
> His wife obviously has resentment. Sam needs to open up that resentment and help her heal from it.
> 
> Sam, how do you think you could do that?


I just need to be a better friend to her. Meet her needs for quality time. 

We have talked about the resentment. This is something she needs to deal with.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I just need to be a better friend to her. Meet her needs for quality time.
> 
> We have talked about the resentment. *This is something she needs to deal with*.


Could you elaborate on the bolded, please?


----------



## MRR

jld said:


> Why do you think the bolded, turnera?
> 
> The point of "*****"ing at him, imo, is to release some of her frustration, and to get his attention. She seems scared to tell him about it directly.
> 
> His wife obviously has resentment. Sam needs to open up that resentment and help her heal from it.
> 
> Sam, how do you think you could do that?


Sorry, but I am a man who has been in a very similar situation as the OP and you may not agree with this, but the reason why she 'hates him a little bit more' is because he is weak and needy, not because he isnt listening. 

Knowing what I know now, I would walk away from this nonsense before she opened her mouth. Thank God I am out of that disaster and my ex wife is someone else's problem. Actually she has gone throug a few of them and is more miserable than before, while I on the other hand am free to ignore her selfish entitled a**. Which drives her crazy. Yes, now she actually wants me. Why? Because I have no NEED for her. I thought I did. I was wrong. 

OP is wrong too.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> Could you elaborate on the bolded, please?


She believes I didn't support her enough when the kids were teenagers. She is resentful about this. 

We have talked about it. I tell her my point of view. She tells me her point of view.

What do you suggest I do so that she is no longer resentful about this?


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> She believes I didn't support her enough when the kids were teenagers. She is resentful about this.
> 
> We have talked about it. I tell her my point of view. She tells me her point of view.
> 
> What do you suggest I do so that she is no longer resentful about this?


I would not defend your point of view. I would listen to hers, and validate it. You don't have to agree, but you must show you understand it, and appreciate it.

When she seems satisfied that you have understood, you can introduce why you did what you did. Not in a defensive way, but just by way of explanation. You could ask her what you could have done differently that would have been helpful.

Even if you do not agree, her feeling listened to and understood is likely to go far towards repairing the rift. It is not like you are going to have teenagers again. Might as well listen to her and try to heal the hurt.


----------



## jld

MRR said:


> Sorry, but I am a man who has been in a very similar situation as the OP and you may not agree with this, but the reason why she 'hates him a little bit more' is because he is weak and needy, not because he isnt listening.
> 
> Knowing what I know now, I would walk away from this nonsense before she opened her mouth. Thank God I am out of that disaster and my ex wife is someone else's problem. Actually she has gone throug a few of them and is more miserable than before, while I on the other hand am free to ignore her selfish entitled a**. Which drives her crazy. Yes, now she actually wants me. Why? Because I have no NEED for her. I thought I did. I was wrong.
> 
> OP is wrong too.


Sounds like a painful experience, MRR. Probably best you two parted ways.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> She believes I didn't support her enough when the kids were teenagers. She is resentful about this.
> 
> We have talked about it. I tell her my point of view. She tells me her point of view.
> 
> What do you suggest I do so that she is no longer resentful about this?


Hmmm... I think I hear abandonment speak lying underneath her words... Which is on that ACOA list

Have you assessed that her feeling is based in reality, that she felt abandoned because you did abandon or if it is what I call an old tape playing in her head because in reality, you didn't abandon her, but she's feeling it anyway.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> I would not defend your point of view. I would listen to hers, and validate it. You don't have to agree, but you must show you understand it, and appreciate it.


I have done that.



> When she seems satisfied that you have understood, you can introduce why you did what you did. Not in a defensive way, but just by way of explanation. You could ask her what you could have done differently that would have been helpful.


I have done that.



> Even if you do not agree, her feeling listened to and understood is likely to go far towards repairing the rift. It is not like you are going to have teenagers again. Might as well listen to her and try to heal the hurt.


All that has happened (more than once or twice) and she is still resentful.

That is why I say it is on her.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I have done that.
> 
> 
> 
> I have done that.
> 
> 
> 
> All that has happened (more than once or twice) and she is still resentful.
> 
> That is why I say it is on her.


I disagree with the last sentence. At least, *I* would not give up.

Can you explain how the convos have gone, things you both have said? What you may think of as "having done that" may not be how your wife sees it.


----------



## MRR

SadSamIAm said:


> She believes I didn't support her enough when the kids were teenagers. She is resentful about this.
> 
> We have talked about it. I tell her my point of view. She tells me her point of view.
> 
> What do you suggest I do so that she is no longer resentful about this?


Quit talking to her about this. It is just an excuse/reason for her to not have sex with someone she does not want to have sex with. My wife did it most of our marriage as well. The 'talks' never helped, because they were never legitimate and no matter what happened, there was another excuse waiting in the wings.


----------



## farsidejunky

Have you ever just apologized without trying to explain why, Sam?

Just simply say:

"Wife, I should have been more involved. I wish I could go back and change it. I am sorry I let you down."

And just leave it at that.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Hmmm... I think I hear abandonment speak lying underneath her words... Which is on that ACOA list
> 
> Have you assessed that her feeling is based in reality, that she felt abandoned because you did abandon or if it is what I call an old tape playing in her head because in reality, you didn't abandon her, but she's feeling it anyway.


I don't believe I abandoned her. I think we had a difference of opinion on how to deal with things. 

My daughter brought this up the other night. She said something like, "Mom says you didn't have her back when we were younger. But you did. You never told us that we could do anything that she said we couldn't. Most of the arguments happened after school when you were at work and when you got home you always sided with mom."

Regardless, these things happened about 4 years ago when our middle daughter was 17. Lets say I was a horrible dad and let her do whatever she wanted even though my wife had said she wasn't allowed to. What can I do about it now?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> I don't think his wife has any such intention.


See, this is your gender bias showing. I NEVER said nor did I imply his wife has any intent. Instead of deleting your post, asking for clarification, you should have been patient. Yes, I read your deleted post asking for an explanation, I became busy.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Have you ever just apologized without trying to explain why, Sam?
> 
> Just simply say:
> 
> "Wife, I should have been more involved. I wish I could go back and change it. I am sorry I let you down."
> 
> And just leave it at that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


That would not be enough for me. I would want to know why he was not there for me. I would want to talk it through, release all the emotions. 

Think of that book for recovering from an affair, far. _Healing from Your Partner's Affair_ or something like that. I have not read all of it, but to his wife, his lack of support was a betrayal. If he can humble himself like that book suggests doing, she might be able to heal from those years.


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> See, this is your gender bias showing. I NEVER said nor did I imply his wife has any intent. Instead of deleting your post asking for clarification, you should have been patient.


You already clarified. That is why I deleted it. You had added the clarification.


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Very telling that you are happiest after sex. *You've been conditioned* to despise yourself and resolve this feeling with sex. Sorry that just isn't healthy to me.


Who else would you mean has conditioned him, except his wife? If you meant he had done it himself, you would have said, "You've conditioned yourself," no?


----------



## SadSamIAm

farsidejunky said:


> Have you ever just apologized without trying to explain why, Sam?
> 
> Just simply say:
> 
> "Wife, I should have been more involved. I wish I could go back and change it. I am sorry I let you down."
> 
> And just leave it at that.


Yes, I have used those exact words.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> Sounds like a painful experience, MRR. Probably best you two parted ways.


Sounds very similar to my experience.

Why do you not tell me to part ways?


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> Sounds very similar to my experience.
> 
> Why do you not tell me to part ways?


Because you two still love each other. That is a lot to work with.

Do you *want* me to tell you to part ways?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't believe I abandoned her. I think we had a difference of opinion on how to deal with things.
> 
> My daughter brought this up the other night. She said something like, "Mom says you didn't have her back when we were younger. But you did. You never told us that we could do anything that she said we couldn't. Most of the arguments happened after school when you were at work and when you got home you always sided with mom."
> 
> Regardless, these things happened about 4 years ago when our middle daughter was 17. Lets say I was a horrible dad and let her do whatever she wanted even though my wife had said she wasn't allowed to. What can I do about it now?


So abandonment pain was triggered which has now been festering for four years. 

I see you protecting yourself on this story. Understandable since the one who is supposed to love has used it like a weapon for four years. What I would like to know is what is her motivation for hanging onto it for four years.

Did something bad happen to your daughter as a result of your permission?


----------



## jld

Have you looked at that _Hold Me Tight_ book?

You two need to see each other's hearts, Sam. The author of that book talks about that.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> So abandonment pain was triggered which has now been festering for four years.
> 
> I see you protecting yourself on this story. Understandable since the one who is supposed to love has used it like a weapon for four years. What I would like to know is what is her motivation for hanging onto it for four years.
> 
> Did something bad happen to your daughter as a result of your permission?


She may have just felt disrespected. I can imagine my own mom feeling that way. Her area, and her authority was usurped.


----------



## jb02157

This seems to be common behavior for married women. They seem to think they are never responsibile for having sex with you at all, but is or should be an obligation. Therer seems to be part of the female ego that gets stroked when they refuse their partner. 

Pisses me off to, I have to put up with the same thing.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> You already clarified. That is why I deleted it. You had added the clarification.


LOL. You posted to ask for clarification and became impatient. Excuse it any way you want. 



jld said:


> Who else would you mean has conditioned him, except his wife? If you meant he had done it himself, you would have said, "You've conditioned yourself," no?


Nope. You are assigning blame and fault, all by yourself, which is your own bias not mine. I faulted no one and made an observation about the entire situation. Yes, I stopped commenting and decided to lurk. I know when I think my observations and comments are unhelpful or not in the direction a poster wants to hear at the time. 

He has been conditioned and he needs to find out where and why. It could be his fault, it could be her fault, it could be both of their faults, it could be the environment, it could be work, it could be FOO issues HENCE why I said "*You've been conditioned to despise yourself.*" It is unhealthy.


----------



## farsidejunky

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't believe I abandoned her. I think we had a difference of opinion on how to deal with things.
> 
> My daughter brought this up the other night. She said something like, "Mom says you didn't have her back when we were younger. But you did. You never told us that we could do anything that she said we couldn't. Most of the arguments happened after school when you were at work and when you got home you always sided with mom."
> 
> Regardless, these things happened about 4 years ago when our middle daughter was 17. Lets say I was a horrible dad and let her do whatever she wanted even though my wife had said she wasn't allowed to. What can I do about it now?


And that is exactly why she resents you. You are telling her indirectly her feelings are wrong.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> That would not be enough for me. I would want to know why he was not there for me. I would want to talk it through, release all the emotions.
> 
> Think of that book for recovering from an affair, far. _Healing from Your Partner's Affair_ or something like that. I have not read all of it, but to his wife, his lack of support was a betrayal. If he can humble himself like that book suggests doing, she might be able to heal from those years.


When you ask why, you get into potential defensiveness again. This causes her to get more angry. My wife hates explanations. She wants to hear that I am sorry and that I will do my best to not let it happen again.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> LOL. You posted to ask for clarification and became impatient. Excuse it any way you want.
> 
> You added the middle sentence to you post after originally posting. I asked for clarification for that reason.
> 
> Once I saw the middle sentence, I realized what you meant. Or thought I did.
> 
> Nope. You are assigning blame and fault, all by yourself, which is your own bias not mine. I faulted no one and made an observation about the entire situation. Yes, I stopped commenting and decided to lurk. I know when I think my observations and comments are unhelpful or not in the direction a poster wants to hear at the time.
> 
> He has been conditioned and he needs to find out where and why. It could be his fault, it could be her fault, it could be both of their faults, it could be the environment, it could be work, it could be FOO issues HENCE why I said "*You've been conditioned to despise yourself.*" It is unhealthy.
> 
> Philly, are you a lawyer?
> 
> J/k. I'm sorry if I misunderstood. And I still do not think his wife has bad intentions. I think she just does not know how to resolve her resentment without his help.


----------



## Acoa

SadSamIAm said:


> She believes I didn't support her enough when the kids were teenagers. She is resentful about this.
> 
> We have talked about it. I tell her my point of view. She tells me her point of view.
> 
> What do you suggest I do so that she is no longer resentful about this?


So many parallels to my own failed marriage. 

Here is the thing you need to realize. You can't do anything that will make her no longer resentful about the past. NOTHING! That's up to her. She will let go of it if and when she wants. Which may be never.

It sounds like you were a good Dad. And you had her back. There are always going to be some things you could have done better. She is choosing to focus on those. You are accepting it and getting pulled into it. 

Step away from the chalupa. Laugh it off, remind her of the good things. You can even remind her of some things she did that irritated you, but that you've let go. You prefer to remember the things she did right. You can either continue to fight about meaningless things missing from the past. Or remember the good and build from there.

Then, talk to her about the present. Tell her that most things are good. But you feel like she is pushing you away, and you have a need for more physical intimacy. Tell her what you need. Tell her if there is something in the present you can do to help her provide that for you, you are all ears. But you are done picking apart the past. 

What is it the wise monkey in the Lion King said about the past, "yes, it can hurt. You can either run from it, or learn from it." It doesn't sound like she is arguing about the past to learn from it. It sounds more like she is arguing to be right. To try and dominate you. She likely doesn't see it, but she is emotionally stuck. You can't fix that for her. She needs to figure it out. All you can do is figure out how much longer you can tolerate it, and once you can't, what the exit strategy looks like.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> And that is exactly why she resents you. You are telling her indirectly her feelings are wrong.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Or just not being sensitive to them.


----------



## jld

Acoa said:


> So many parallels to my own failed marriage.
> 
> Here is the thing you need to realize. You can't do anything that will make her no longer resentful about the past. NOTHING! That's up to her. She will let go of it if and when she wants. Which may be never.
> 
> It sounds like you were a good Dad. And you had her back. There are always going to be some things you could have done better. She is choosing to focus on those. You are accepting it and getting pulled into it.
> 
> *Step away from the chalupa. Laugh it off, remind her of the good things. You can even remind her of some things she did that irritated you, but that you've let go. You prefer to remember the things she did right. You can either continue to fight about meaningless things missing from the past. Or remember the good and build from there.*
> 
> Then, talk to her about the present. Tell her that most things are good. But you feel like she is pushing you away, and you have a need for more physical intimacy. Tell her what you need. Tell her if there is something in the present you can do to help her provide that for you, you are all ears. But you are done picking apart the past.
> 
> What is it the wise monkey in the Lion King said about the past, "yes, it can hurt. You can either run from it, or learn from it." It doesn't sound like she is arguing about the past to learn from it. It sounds more like she is arguing to be right. To try and dominate you. She likely doesn't see it, but she is emotionally stuck. You can't fix that for her. She needs to figure it out. All you can do is figure out how much longer you can tolerate it, and once you can't, what the exit strategy looks like.


I don't think the bolded is going to work. 

Folks, if she feels betrayed, he may have to do the same work as a WS is asked to do here on TAM.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> And I still do not think his wife has bad intentions. I think she just does not know how to resolve her resentment without his help.


Yes, which is gender biased. They both have resentment and she doesn't help, but he must fix both their feelings? No, that is why they are in this never ending cycle. 


You call it giving up, I call it trying something different. 
You call it quitting, I call it trying a different approach.

He can start by addressing why and how he has become conditioned to be happiest with her after sex. Go do some investigating, then look at all of the studies, surveys and research on this subject for WOMEN. Then think why does he do what is ascribed to women and the opposite for men.

That's why I said "Very telling that you are happiest after sex."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

duplicate post... I hate computer problems... geeze.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> And that is exactly why she resents you. You are telling her indirectly her feelings are wrong.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


As an ACOA, her feelings may very well and are very likely based in non reality. Based on him saying he's acquiesced and has been humble about it. Truth is, she still hasn't let it go and until what I suspect is an underlying old tape is resolved, she might not ever let it go. She recreated the old abandonment feelings that ACOA's tend to do. Its feeding that spot for her unfortunately from what it sounds like. I could be wrong, but when you have someone trying this many different approaches to no avail, something else is at play.



Acoa said:


> So many parallels to my own failed marriage.
> 
> Here is the thing you need to realize. You can't do anything that will make her no longer resentful about the past. NOTHING! That's up to her. *She will let go of it if and when she wants.* Which may be never.
> 
> It sounds like you were a good Dad. And you had her back. There are always going to be some things you could have done better. *She is choosing to focus on those*. *You are accepting it and getting pulled into it*.
> 
> *Step away from the chalupa*. *Laugh it off, remind her of the good things. You can even remind her of some things she did that irritated you, but that you've let go. You prefer to remember the things she did right. *You can either continue to fight about meaningless things missing from the past. Or remember the good and build from there.
> 
> Then,* talk to her about the present*. Tell her that most things are good. But you feel like she is pushing you away, and you have a need for more physical intimacy. *Tell her what you need*.* Tell her if there is something in the present you can do to help her provide that for you, you are all ears. But you are done picking apart the past.
> *
> What is it the wise monkey in the Lion King said about the past, "yes, it can hurt. You can either run from it, or learn from it." It doesn't sound like she is arguing about the past to learn from it. *It sounds more like she is arguing to be right. To try and dominate you. She likely doesn't see it, but she is emotionally stuck*.* You can't fix that for her*. *She needs to figure it out*. All you can do is figure out how much longer you can tolerate it, and once you can't, what the exit strategy looks like.


Love it love it love it.... all excellent, kind, balanced, accurate. Key words!!!! IN THE PRESENT.... those will be very important to remember going forward.




jld said:


> Or just not being sensitive to them.


Very difficult to do after four years of it being used as a weapon. Not everyone will choose to change their personal limit to accommodate it.

Our personalities are largely innate. So if someone is born more sensitive by design, then we can honor that when they declare they have had enough. The trick is knowing what is innate and what is learned. He seems like he self assesses well. So, I err on the side of innate once he reaches his limit.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Ok... I want to share something that helped my H and I as we worked through our problems. When we argued about something inevitably one of us OR both of us had an old tape playing. We agreed to isolate the old tape and if it was indeed based in present reality we resolved it in the present, but if it indeed was not based in present reality then we would recognize that it was an old tape, the one who didn't have the old tape playing supported the one who DID have the old tape playing WITHOUT taking responsibility for it. Over time, the old tapes started disappearing. Now neither of us rarely trigger anymore. You do not want to get into the habit of enabling an old tape, otherwise the healing doesn't come to permanently remove it. Sam is looking for permanent solutions.

FYI, the worst fights we ever got into was when either both of us were triggered at the same time OR the person with old tapes had more than one playing. IT was TOUGH ass work, but boy, when you get through to the other side, there is NOTHING like the feeling of THAT accomplishment.


----------



## turnera

SadSamIAm said:


> There are some things I need to do better.
> 
> When she says, "How do you expect me to want to be close to you when you never talk to me?" she has a point.


"I'd love to talk to you all the time; will you talk to me without criticizing me?"



> Once I am doing my end, I intend to quit kissing her ass and call her out when she is being unreasonable and/or not holding up her end.


Note I did not say to 'call her out.' That's adversarial. I said to say that you don't want to participate in you bashing me; I'm happy to talk if you're willing to talk about solutions, not blaming.

The difference is showing her that she's free to feel whatever she's feeling, and she's free to RESPECTFULLY share her concerns with you, and you're going to go about your day and your life regardless. 

The picture you paint is a Nice Guy - either standing there wringing your hands and asking 'please don't be mad at me' or else huffing away like a petulant kid. Why would she want to deal with either of those? Be calm, confident, loving, willing to learn, and ready to participate - as long as she is treating you with respect. And if she then chooses NOT to be respectful, then shrugging and say 'I'm happy to discuss this when you're ready to talk about it in a way that's safe for both of us; this isn't safe for me, listening to you cut me down; let me know when you're ready to talk' and then going and doing something else, letting her think about it.


----------



## jld

In that _Hold Me Tight_ book, the author recommends sharing our heart with our partner. Truly understanding each other's pain is healing.

I agree that in other relationships it might be better just to deal with our feelings on our own. Taking very little personally is helpful in life. Less baggage that way.

But in our marriages we want to share our hearts. It is true I am asking Sam to hear his wife's heart first. But I believe that once feeling understood, she will be willing to hear his heart, too.


----------



## MRR

SadSamIAm said:


> Sounds very similar to my experience.
> 
> Why do you not tell me to part ways?


I am not going to tell you to part ways, even though it was probably the best thing that ever happened to me. That is a big decision and one you need to make, but you need to make it a real option instead of just a talking point. 

If she is so resentful and has no interest in you sexually, why doesnt SHE initiate the divorce? Did you ever ask yourself that? Are the answers financial? She is not attracted to you nor does she respect you, however there are obviously advantages to being married to you (which are not getting you any affection, as you know). Being a good provider is not making her crazy to rip your clothes off, but it is likely the reason SHE has not filed for divorce.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I agree somewhat. If a person is HD, it is difficult to not get aroused when being close, after not being intimate for 10 days or so.
> 
> If there is affection most days, then it wouldn't lead to sex all the time.


How I broke this whole cycle was to make affection just be affection, and sex be sex.

I never initiate sex now with things like hugs, or back rubs, or just being nice. Because all that is a covert contract that is going to make her suspicious of you being nice.

So now a hug is just a hug (unless it's a naked hug). A back rub is a back rub. Bringing her flowers or a gift is just being nice (unless the gift is a sex toy or lingerie).

Initiating sex is now grabbing her, kissing her passionately and taking her clothes off. Or saying "I'm going to **** your brains out." Or "Take your clothes off now" or "get down on your knees" or whatever. It's unabashed, unashamed, clear, and I own it. If she says no, I say "OK" and it's over without being pissy.




> I agree that she might think that at that point she initiated. But the relationship would be pretty terrible if we both only put in that much effort.


But it's funny... Now when I get a no pretty soon after she initiates.

And she initiates a lot more often now.

Maybe because she feels safe to?


----------



## turnera

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok... I want to share something that helped my H and I as we worked through our problems. When we argued about something inevitably one of us OR both of us had an old tape playing. We agreed to isolate the old tape and if it was indeed based in present reality we resolved it in the present, but if it indeed was not based in present reality then we would recognize that it was an old tape, the one who didn't have the old tape playing supported the one who DID have the old tape playing WITHOUT taking responsibility for it. Over time, the old tapes started disappearing. Now neither of us rarely trigger anymore. You do not want to get into the habit of enabling an old tape, otherwise the healing doesn't come to permanently remove it. Sam is looking for permanent solutions.
> 
> FYI, the worst fights we ever got into was when either both of us were triggered at the same time OR the person with old tapes had more than one playing. IT was TOUGH ass work, but boy, when you get through to the other side, there is NOTHING like the feeling of THAT accomplishment.


This is vital stuff, but IMO it first requires setting up a safe environment, as well as her willingness TO discuss the marriage (and not just what's wrong with him). To get her to that point, I think he needs to start setting the scene for accepting and welcoming safe discussions and walking away from unsafe discussions. This is what my IC/MC said to do - first show her you simply won't participate in Sam-bashing episodes, as it does no good, and rewarding her when she sits down to talk logically about what is actually happening (and not the tapes).

Keep reiterating I want to fix this and also keep enforcing your boundary/consequence of not being her punching bag.


----------



## Marduk

I also try to continuously stroke her responsive desire.

If she hasn't initiated in a week or so, I'll do a heavy workout and then "accidentally" walk around without a shirt on all sweaty. Or conveniently get a muscle cramp and have to stretch it out, flexing a little bit. Or wear stuff she likes to see me in, or cologne she likes me to wear.

Whatever your wife's response triggers are, learn them, and keep pushing those buttons. 

Just vary it up, be unexpected, and let her desire build a little before it gets released. I once let her go for a few days until she got really mad and demanded to be ****ed. 

Accidentally, of course.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> This is vital stuff, but IMO it first requires setting up a safe environment, as well as her willingness TO discuss the marriage (and not just what's wrong with him). To get her to that point, I think he needs to start setting the scene for accepting and welcoming safe discussions and walking away from unsafe discussions. This is what my IC/MC said to do - first show her you simply won't participate in Sam-bashing episodes, as it does no good, and rewarding her when she sits down to talk logically about what is actually happening (and not the tapes).
> 
> Keep reiterating I want to fix this and also keep enforcing your boundary/consequence of not being her punching bag.


I would not walk away. Just steel yourself and say, "Help me understand." Meet her anger with empathy. Relentless empathy. It will disarm her.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> So abandonment pain was triggered which has now been festering for four years.
> 
> I see you protecting yourself on this story. Understandable since the one who is supposed to love has used it like a weapon for four years. What I would like to know is what is her motivation for hanging onto it for four years.
> 
> Did something bad happen to your daughter as a result of your permission?


Nope. All is fine with my daughter. She is great.

I think is just one of the many things she uses to put space between us. 

An example might be on a Friday night my daughter asks to go to some party somewhere. I say, OK, be home by midnight.

If she asks my wife, she would say, where are you going? who's going to be there? are you going anywhere else? is XXX going to be there? etc. 

My wife didn't like that I didn't ask enough questions. In that way, I didn't have her back.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> Because you two still love each other. That is a lot to work with.
> 
> Do you *want* me to tell you to part ways?


In many ways, I want you to realize that I have been doing what you are asking me to do for many years. 

I want you to admit that your way doesn't always work.


----------



## SadSamIAm

farsidejunky said:


> And that is exactly why she resents you. You are telling her indirectly her feelings are wrong.


And she is telling me DIRECTLY that my feelings are wrong. 

I have no problem with that. I don't expect us to be exactly the same.


----------



## Nucking Futs

SadSamIAm said:


> In many ways, I want you to realize that I have been doing what you are asking me to do for many years.
> 
> I want you to admit that your way doesn't always work.


Lol, you are barking up the wrong tree. It's never going to happen.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> Nope. All is fine with my daughter. She is great.
> 
> I think is just one of the many things she uses to put space between us.
> 
> An example might be on a Friday night my daughter asks to go to some party somewhere. I say, OK, be home by midnight.
> 
> If she asks my wife, she would say, where are you going? who's going to be there? are you going anywhere else? is XXX going to be there? etc.
> 
> My wife didn't like that I didn't ask enough questions. In that way, I didn't have her back.


groan.... she has picked a four year battle over this. Ok. She is deep in her "wanting to control her environment" from the ACOA stuff. Geeze... tough nut to crack on this one.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> And she is telling me DIRECTLY that my feelings are wrong.
> 
> I have no problem with that. I don't expect us to be exactly the same.


Ok. This also tells me you may need the book Emotional Blackmail if I haven't told you that yet and use it in tandem with Boundary work. You disarm her when you understand what her weapons are. I chose to disarm my husband AND my mother by exposing their weapons to the light. TOTAL different tactic than jld, because I had already done all the empathy stuff and that wasn't working long term. I also used the website Out of the FOG to along with Emotional blackmail to identify, define and name every single abusive tactic that was being used with me. When I KNEW I was in the clear on my side of the street and I was facing someone using an abuse tactic to control me, it was time to expose it to the light, I call this beating my truth drum... I stood dignified, empathetic, but called a spade a spade and stuck to my truth drum with everything I had. It was like playing king of the hill and I won, dang it. 

I'll write out examples when I can... right now gotta go get my son :grin2:


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> In many ways, I want you to realize that I have been doing what you are asking me to do for many years.
> 
> I want you to admit that your way doesn't always work.


You have not told me what has gone down in the convos. I hear people say things like "I tried that," but what they think they did may not be what I think they did.

Nevertheless, you are welcome to disregard my contributions, or ask me to stop posting on your thread. Anything I say is just an offering. When someone wants to save their marriage, and I think it is possible, I will hang in there until the end.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> As an ACOA, her feelings may very well and are very likely based in non reality. Based on him saying he's acquiesced and has been humble about it. Truth is, she still hasn't let it go and until what I suspect is an underlying old tape is resolved, she might not ever let it go. She recreated the old abandonment feelings that ACOA's tend to do. Its feeding that spot for her unfortunately from what it sounds like. I could be wrong, but when you have someone trying this many different approaches to no avail, something else is at play.


She parents the same as her alcoholic father did. He didn't trust anyone. He has no problem telling her she looked like a **** if her jeans were too tight. Her and her sister weren't allowed to party. They had to wait until their father passed out and then they would go. They would watch out for one another so they didn't get caught.

When I first met her it was at college and she had just gotten away from her father. She was wild the first 2 or 3 months of college. She was almost kicked out of college because of her marks. 

That was when we started dating. She has told me that I saved her. She never dreamed a relationship could be as good as what we had. She came from a house of constant emotional abuse.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> She parents the same as her alcoholic father did. He didn't trust anyone. He has no problem telling her she looked like a **** if her jeans were too tight. Her and her sister weren't allowed to party. They had to wait until their father passed out and then they would go. They would watch out for one another so they didn't get caught.
> 
> When I first met her it was at college and she had just gotten away from her father. She was wild the first 2 or 3 months of college. She was almost kicked out of college because of her marks.
> 
> That was when we started dating. She has told me that I saved her. She never dreamed a relationship could be as good as what we had. She came from a house of constant emotional abuse.


Then the best thing she could do this time around is save herself. She does not have to let her past take her future. I'll be praying the Lord opens her heart to this healing.


----------



## SadSamIAm

turnera said:


> "I'd love to talk to you all the time; will you talk to me without criticizing me?"
> 
> 
> Note I did not say to 'call her out.' That's adversarial. I said to say that you don't want to participate in you bashing me; I'm happy to talk if you're willing to talk about solutions, not blaming.
> 
> The difference is showing her that she's free to feel whatever she's feeling, and she's free to RESPECTFULLY share her concerns with you, and you're going to go about your day and your life regardless.
> 
> The picture you paint is a Nice Guy - either standing there wringing your hands and asking 'please don't be mad at me' or else huffing away like a petulant kid. Why would she want to deal with either of those? Be calm, confident, loving, willing to learn, and ready to participate - as long as she is treating you with respect. And if she then chooses NOT to be respectful, then shrugging and say 'I'm happy to discuss this when you're ready to talk about it in a way that's safe for both of us; this isn't safe for me, listening to you cut me down; let me know when you're ready to talk' and then going and doing something else, letting her think about it.


"I'd love to talk to you all the time; will you talk to me without criticizing me?"

I said pretty much those exact words to her when I went home for lunch today.


----------



## jld

How did she respond?


----------



## SadSamIAm

MRR said:


> I am not going to tell you to part ways, even though it was probably the best thing that ever happened to me. That is a big decision and one you need to make, but you need to make it a real option instead of just a talking point.
> 
> If she is so resentful and has no interest in you sexually, why doesnt SHE initiate the divorce? Did you ever ask yourself that? Are the answers financial? She is not attracted to you nor does she respect you, however there are obviously advantages to being married to you (which are not getting you any affection, as you know). Being a good provider is not making her crazy to rip your clothes off, but it is likely the reason SHE has not filed for divorce.


We have been together for 30 years. We have amassed a fair amount of wealth. She doesn't need me for financial reasons.

I think she hasn't filed for divorce because she loves me. We fight a bunch, but I think in a weird way, she needs that conflict (ACOA thing).


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> How I broke this whole cycle was to make affection just be affection, and sex be sex.
> 
> I never initiate sex now with things like hugs, or back rubs, or just being nice. Because all that is a covert contract that is going to make her suspicious of you being nice.
> 
> So now a hug is just a hug (unless it's a naked hug). A back rub is a back rub. Bringing her flowers or a gift is just being nice (unless the gift is a sex toy or lingerie).
> 
> Initiating sex is now grabbing her, kissing her passionately and taking her clothes off. Or saying "I'm going to **** your brains out." Or "Take your clothes off now" or "get down on your knees" or whatever. It's unabashed, unashamed, clear, and I own it. If she says no, I say "OK" and it's over without being pissy.
> 
> 
> 
> But it's funny... Now when I get a no pretty soon after she initiates.
> 
> And she initiates a lot more often now.
> 
> Maybe because she feels safe to?


Your method doesn't work with someone that has responsive desire.


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> I also try to continuously stroke her responsive desire.
> 
> If she hasn't initiated in a week or so, I'll do a heavy workout and then "accidentally" walk around without a shirt on all sweaty. Or conveniently get a muscle cramp and have to stretch it out, flexing a little bit. Or wear stuff she likes to see me in, or cologne she likes me to wear.
> 
> Whatever your wife's response triggers are, learn them, and keep pushing those buttons.
> 
> Just vary it up, be unexpected, and let her desire build a little before it gets released. I once let her go for a few days until she got really mad and demanded to be ****ed.
> 
> Accidentally, of course.


I think this approach can help. It is why I have been hitting the weights. Being more attractive to her can help.

Weird, but just working out for three days, has made me more confident. Feels good to have sore muscles. I need to keep it up.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> I would not walk away. Just steel yourself and say, "Help me understand." Meet her anger with empathy. Relentless empathy. It will disarm her.


You are wrong. When she is being unreasonable about something empathy makes it worse. What you are suggesting I do is what I have been doing. I need to be more firm.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok. This also tells me you may need the book Emotional Blackmail if I haven't told you that yet and use it in tandem with Boundary work. You disarm her when you understand what her weapons are. I chose to disarm my husband AND my mother by exposing their weapons to the light. TOTAL different tactic than jld, because I had already done all the empathy stuff and that wasn't working long term. I also used the website Out of the FOG to along with Emotional blackmail to identify, define and name every single abusive tactic that was being used with me. When I KNEW I was in the clear on my side of the street and I was facing someone using an abuse tactic to control me, it was time to expose it to the light, I call this beating my truth drum... I stood dignified, empathetic, but called a spade a spade and stuck to my truth drum with everything I had. It was like playing king of the hill and I won, dang it.
> 
> I'll write out examples when I can... right now gotta go get my son :grin2:


I am going to look up that book "Emotional Blackmail".


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> How did she respond?


She kept complaining about things. Mostly that now all of a sudden I am trying to talk to her after ignoring her the last weeks.

She is weakening. I think we will have a good weekend. I have to be consistent and when she starts picking fights I need to handle it properly.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> You are wrong. When she is being unreasonable about something empathy makes it worse. What you are suggesting I do is what I have been doing. *I need to be more firm*.


What are you planning on doing?


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> She kept complaining about things. Mostly that now all of a sudden I am trying to talk to her after ignoring her the last weeks.
> 
> She is weakening. I think we will have a good weekend. I have to be consistent and when she starts picking fights *I need to handle it properly*.


She wants to connect with you. 

Sam, if you want to make this work long term, I think you should read that _Hold Me Tight_ book. 

And what does the bolded mean?


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> Your method doesn't work with someone that has responsive desire.


My wife has responsive desire about five 9's of the time.

They key is to trigger it directly... While methodically keeping her on simmer.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I think this approach can help. It is why I have been hitting the weights. Being more attractive to her can help.
> 
> Weird, but just working out for three days, has made me more confident. Feels good to have sore muscles. I need to keep it up.


My wife also gets turned on by the ****y to the point of being irritating attitude.

Also, just trying to take her when I want her. Not being all nicey-nice about it.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I am going to look up that book "Emotional Blackmail".


Negotiating With an Emotional Terrorist

Is It Love or Emotional Terrorism? | elephant journal

How To Deal With An Emotional Terrorist | Therapy Soup

AKA "happy wife, happy life."


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> She kept complaining about things. Mostly that now all of a sudden I am trying to talk to her after ignoring her the last weeks.
> 
> She is weakening. I think we will have a good weekend. I have to be consistent and when she starts picking fights I need to handle it properly.


Oh, that.

I should have mentioned that.

It will get worse. And worse. And worse. Because she is testing the limits of your resolve or to see if these changes are going to stick... Or are just the 'flavour of the weak.'

Until it gets better. Then it gets a whole lot better, fast.


----------



## farsidejunky

SadSamIAm said:


> And she is telling me DIRECTLY that my feelings are wrong.
> 
> I have no problem with that. I don't expect us to be exactly the same.


If you recognize it for what it is, you think you can withstand it for a sustained period? 

ETS: after I posted this, I read Marduks last post. This ties directly into that.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

k.. will write out examples when I get home. Had to wrap up here at work. And express my silly bone over on the divorce thread. brb


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I don't think quitting at this point will help him grow. I think seeking to understand how he can influence her, and then changing how he is currently doing that, will help him grow.
> 
> I think we have different goals for him. That may be part of the disconnect.


I'm not sure the assumption that he can influence her is valid. Not by a mile.

Sex has a mental, emotional, and physical component. You need all three. But you can't fully influence all three, only partially. 

Also, understanding why her refusal exists may or may not make an iota of difference in solving the puzzle. 

The only reason he needs to know why is so that he can make the judgment whether it's worth fixing or not.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I think that is a possible outcome . . . after he starts meeting her emotional needs.


People like her are often emotional zombies, needing intimacy as much as they need garlic or a silver stake.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

SadSamIAm said:


> When she says, "How do you expect me to want to be close to you when you never talk to me?" she has a point.


And then you say "How do you expect me to want to talk to you when you are prickly and won't let me get close to you?" so she understands your perspective, because you have a point too.

But you also follow it up with "So how do we get out of this vicious circle and give each other our best instead of our worst?" so it's clear that the solution is going to be collaborative and benefit both of you.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Hopeful Cynic said:


> And then you say "How do you expect me to want to talk to you when you are prickly and won't let me get close to you?" so she understands your perspective, because you have a point too.
> 
> But you also follow it up with "So how do we get out of this vicious circle and give each other our best instead of our worst?" so it's clear that the solution is going to be collaborative and benefit both of you.


Very smart approach. This is a very important point to mention on the heels of me sharing the act of calling poor behaviors by name, exposing it for what it is, AT THE same time I used language to paint a new reality.

So I in essence used this frame work, I refuse to accept destructive behaviors in my space, (gaslighting, emotional blackmail, affairs, physical assault, emotional terrorism).

I WILL accept constructive behaviors in my space (healthy boundaries, love, fun, emotional, verbal, psychological, physical safety, patience, kindness, empathy, etc)


----------



## jld

I like it, too. I think he needs to be willing to be the first to listen, though, if she is willing to talk.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> People like her are often emotional zombies, needing intimacy as much as they need garlic or a silver stake.


You're funny, john. 

I think he wants to save it. He loves her and she loves him. That is worth saving.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

john117 said:


> I'm not sure the assumption that he can influence her is valid. Not by a mile.
> 
> Sex has a mental, emotional, and physical component. You need all three. But you can't fully influence all three, only partially.
> 
> Also, understanding why her refusal exists may or may not make an iota of difference in solving the puzzle.
> 
> The only reason he needs to know why is so that he can make the judgment whether it's worth fixing or not.


I too believe he is at the moment where he is assessing where his reasonable limit is. Is there reasonable effort left that will make an impact AND assessing her capacity, then willingness.

Sam, have you guys ever gone to a marriage conference? Is she open to that kind of experience?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I like it, too. I think he needs to be willing to be the first to listen, though, if she is willing to talk.


I like the redirection to focusing on solutions as a team.

If she turns back to complaints, repeat it until the pattern breaks.

I think she has developed a bad habit of complaint addiction.

Its going to take pattern interrupts to break it.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> I like the redirection to focusing on solutions as a team.
> 
> If she turns back to complaints, repeat it until the pattern breaks.
> 
> I think she has developed a bad habit of complaint addiction.
> 
> Its going to take pattern interrupts to break it.


This is my plan.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I like the redirection to focusing on solutions as a team.
> 
> If she turns back to complaints, repeat it until the pattern breaks.
> 
> I think she has developed a bad habit of complaint addiction.
> 
> Its going to take pattern interrupts to break it.


I think the team approach is good, too. It should lessen her feeling of powerlessness. 

Active listening until she feels listened to, and is able to listen to him, can work wonders, without causing defensiveness.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I think he wants to save it. He loves her and she loves him. That is worth saving.


Maybe if they move to Niagara Falls they can save it.

I have no doubt HE wants to save it, I simply question whether SHE can save it.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Maybe if they move to Niagara Falls they can save it.
> 
> I have no doubt HE wants to save it, I simply question whether SHE can save it.


I think he needs to lead the way. I think empathy is the safest way to go. 

Did you see far's story of what happened with his wife the other day on the divorce thread? She rejected him, but he did not react. Partly as a result, they were on the next day. His not resorting to pouting was crucial there.


----------



## john117

Let's see him rejected 95% of a time for a decade and then we talk leadership.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> This is my plan.


Perfect.


Hope she is receptive and it goes well.

If it doesn't, it will not mean you failed.

No matter what she says to you.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Let's see him rejected 95% of a time for a decade and then we talk leadership.


I'm sure that is painful, john.


----------



## john117

Not necessarily painful but detaching. I'm getting ready to watch The Martian with the lovely Dr. J2 and I have no interest whatsoever in what happens after the closing titles, if I don't fall asleep in the process.

I've read the book so...


----------



## farsidejunky

john117 said:


> Let's see him rejected 95% of a time for a decade and then we talk leadership.


John, you know my story. 

It wasn't ten, but it was nearly three.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Not necessarily painful but detaching. I'm getting ready to watch The Martian with the lovely Dr. J2 and I have no interest whatsoever in what happens after the closing titles, if I don't fall asleep in the process.
> 
> I've read the book so...


Enjoy, john.


----------



## john117

It was a good movie. I've read the book and it played out well.

In regards to this thread, remember the basics. If the expectation is that one has to be 100% perfect to have any sort of intimacy with their partner, its time to reassess the relationship. 

You're not applying for astronaut training. Humans have managed to be intimate, flaws and all, for millennia. Maybe the perception here in TAM is that thru some mystery of evolution, everyone is an 8+ and the like. Maybe so. 

Relationships should not be one sided and if they are, you can improve all you want and maybe the partner will respond, maybe not. But your improvement will not, in itself, fix an unbalanced relationship. 

If you need improvement, do it for you. And not as a way to cajole balance.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

john117 said:


> It was a good movie. I've read the book and it played out well.
> 
> In regards to this thread, remember the basics. If the expectation is that one has to be 100% perfect to have any sort of intimacy with their partner, its time to reassess the relationship.
> 
> You're not applying for astronaut training. Humans have managed to be intimate, flaws and all, for millennia. Maybe the perception here in TAM is that thru some mystery of evolution, everyone is an 8+ and the like. Maybe so.
> 
> Relationships should not be one sided and if they are, you can improve all you want and maybe the partner will respond, maybe not. But your improvement will not, in itself, fix an unbalanced relationship.
> 
> If you need improvement, do it for you. And not as a way to cajole balance.


Could not agree more!! And correcting the imbalance lies in adjusting expectations and priorities until they are closer in alignment.


----------



## john117

Or until one or both sides realize that (a) the imbalance isn't fixable and / or (b) the imbalance isn't an issue for the other partner.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Agree


----------



## MRR

This is unfortunate. I feel even worse for the OP now than when this started.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MRR said:


> This is unfortunate. I feel even worse for the OP now than when this started.


Kinda vague, can you expand?


----------



## MRR

SadSamIAm said:


> My wife and I have been in an endless cycle for the past 25 years. I have posted about it before. My wife is 49 and I am 52.
> 
> The endless cycle is me initiating affection/sex and her rejecting me. We go on for a few months where she rejects me for a couple of days, but she eventually allows us to get close. We have sex. We get along great for a few days and then the cycle starts again. We end up having sex maybe 3 or 4 times a month.
> 
> The only time it is different, is when we go away together. Last year we had three separate weekly vacations away where we get along great and have sex daily or even more.
> 
> Once or twice a year, her rejection becomes worse and we go a longer time with no affection/sex. Right now it has been 3 weeks. I didn't think I could reach my limit, but I think I might be ready to leave.
> 
> I find it harder and harder to be nice to her when she rejects me sexually. She says that if I talked to her more, then she would feel closer to me. But when I talk to her, I often get talked down to. I get criticized and talk to with a tone of voice that I just hate. She says she wants me to talk to her, but her mood and treatment makes it very hard for me to do so.
> 
> Anyhow ... this is the current story.
> 
> We went away for Christmas to go skiing. We had a houseful so it wasn't like one of our private get aways. She was stressed with Christmas shopping and baking before the trip, so we weren't getting along very well before we left. But we had a 6 hour drive alone in the car to get there, where we talked a fair amount. I didn't initiate anything when we got there the first night, but I did in the morning and was rejected. The next day we got along well and I tried again at night and was rejected again. Same thing the next morning and then again at night. We skiied together each day and talked on the chairlifts and I thought we were getting along fine. After the third morning of getting rejected, I went cold. Was pissed off and quit talking to her.
> 
> Haven't really spoken to her since. Guess I am doing a kind of 180. I am working lots of hours. When I get home, I go downstairs and watch a Hockey Game or whatever I feel like watching. If she wants to talk to me, she knows where I am. Same thing when in bed, she knows where I am. I walk in the door and if she doesn't say hello, I don't either. I talk with the kids (19 and 20 year olds) and try to appear to be as happy as possible, but I don't initiate anything with her.
> 
> She is very stubborn. She never apologizes and I have taught her through the years that I will eventually give in.
> 
> One of our routines has always been on weekend mornings. I will get up and she will stay in bed. At 11:30 or so, I will go back into the bedroom and cuddle with her. Often she will reject me, but if I am persistent, she will usually warm up to being together. Often leads to our weekly sex.
> 
> These past weekends I have simply gotten up and not approached her later. This Saturday, I watched TV until 12:30 and then I left the house to go to work for the afternoon. As soon as I got in the car, I got a text from her saying, "I was hoping you would have come in to talk to me". I just replied, "You knew where I was if you wanted to talk".
> 
> The next day (Sunday Morning) I was out watching TV and at 11:30 I decided that I would go into the bedroom to talk to her. Thought she had 'kind of' reached out to me the day before. I crawled into bed next to her and she says in a 'Beotchy' voice, "So now you are going to talk to me!" So I got up and left.
> 
> I knew there was a good chance of getting kicked in the nuts. I should have never approached her.
> 
> Sorry for the long story. In the past, I would have given in by now. This time, I would rather just not be around her at all. Want to just leave.
> 
> Any thoughts????



This has been going on TWENTY FIVE years. Do you think she really doesnt know at this point that she isnt receptive? That she is negative? Disrespectful? Complains?

Now all of a sudden talking to her about this is going to break this cycle??? She KNOWS what she is doing. The problem is not that he doesnt talk to her, it is that she doesnt care, doesnt respect, and is not attracted to him. 

He needs to find a purpose in life outside his wife at this point. Keep working out, find enjoyable activities outside the house, be happy in spite of her and quit trying to please her and seek approval (with the unstated goal of more sex). 

If she starts wondering what you are up to, takes interest in doing some of those things to you, showing a better respectful attitued-- great, her attraction is likely rising. If she doesnt, prepare to move on. 

TWENTY FIVE YEARS. Are you going to accept being miserable until you die?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MRR said:


> This has been going on TWENTY FIVE years. Do you think she really doesnt know at this point that she isnt receptive? That she is negative? Disrespectful? Complains?
> 
> Now all of a sudden talking to her about this is going to break this cycle??? She KNOWS what she is doing. The problem is not that he doesnt talk to her, it is that she doesnt care, doesnt respect, and is not attracted to him.
> 
> He needs to find a purpose in life outside his wife at this point. Keep working out, find enjoyable activities outside the house, be happy in spite of her and quit trying to please her and seek approval (with the unstated goal of more sex).
> 
> If she starts wondering what you are up to, takes interest in doing some of those things to you, showing a better respectful attitued-- great, her attraction is likely rising. If she doesnt, prepare to move on.
> 
> TWENTY FIVE YEARS. Are you going to accept being miserable until you die?


Very valid points.

What you are describing is developing a strong balanced self, independent of validation and transactional sex. If he develops that here and it saves his marriage because she chooses to respond, great. If he develops that and she doesn't respond, then he's prepared to move on. If he doesn't develop that, even if he leaves this marriage it will follow him to the next relationship to a degree. So it needs to be developed regardless of where. He gets to choose where to develop that. You chose to leave, he is choosing to stay until he determines its wiser to move on. I see merit in both. But, had you stayed and developed it, you would still have your wife who is now showing you interest. Had you waited and developed it, your family would be in tact. He may find its a lost cause, but developing his resolve while his family is still in tact is a wise move because if she responds, he'll find that out while still married and not divorced. And, he'll already be prepared for very different relationships if he leaves. Will it be painful and challenging, absolutely. A learning curve like this is by default. I think he'll move on if he determines she truly is fully unwilling to build a better future with him. He's choosing to test those waters. Don't freak, he'll be ok.


----------



## turnera

Sad, did you read Hold On To Your N.U.T.s? It talks about having responsibility to the family, but also responsibility to yourself - caring for yourself, not giving it all up just because the wife complains. In doing so, you become recharged, energized, feeling valid and important, so that you can then give that happy, confident man to your family, for a better fit.


----------



## MRR

Blossom Leigh said:


> Very valid points.
> 
> What you are describing is developing a strong balanced self, independent of validation and transactional sex. If he develops that here and it saves his marriage because she chooses to respond, great. If he develops that and she doesn't respond, then he's prepared to move on. If he doesn't develop that, even if he leaves this marriage it will follow him to the next relationship to a degree. So it needs to be developed regardless of where. He gets to choose where to develop that. You chose to leave, he is choosing to stay until he determines its wiser to move on. I see merit in both. But, had you stayed and developed it, you would still have your wife who is now showing you interest. Had you waited and developed it, your family would be in tact. He may find its a lost cause, but developing his resolve while his family is still in tact is a wise move because if she responds, he'll find that out while still married and not divorced. And, he'll already be prepared for very different relationships if he leaves. Will it be painful and challenging, absolutely. A learning curve like this is by default. I think he'll move on if he determines she truly is fully unwilling to build a better future with him. He's choosing to test those waters. Don't freak, he'll be ok.


I am not freaking first of all. HE has been through a quarter of a century of this; for me it was 7 1/2 years and no I did not choose to leave-- she did. And I am now thankful for it.


----------



## Evinrude58

Sam,

The answer is kinda obvious: you have got to start taking your wife on adventures with just you and her. 
That's what she reacts to. You have a great time apparently when you go on long trips with her ALONE. Do it. Stop denying yourself. This is the woman you want. Have her. Give her what she wants. Stop working so damn hard. You are a good guy. Be good to yourself. Take that woman on a trip. Get yourself some sex with the woman you love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MRR said:


> I am not freaking first of all. HE has been through a quarter of a century of this; for me it was 7 1/2 years and no I did not choose to leave-- she did. And I am now thankful for it.


Good, glad you aren't. Didn't mean to offend on the other. My memory sucks.

Super interesting. She chose to not have her feet held to the fire of personal growth. Thats on her. That will be proof in the pudding for him if his wife chooses the same. My husband chose to put his feet in the fire to become a better man. Its sad when people refuse to grow. Sorry your wife chose that path.


----------



## Evinrude58

Oh, and for a surprise, present her with tickets and schedule for another trip in the future while on the first trip. Show her so etching to look forward to all the time, let her know you're putting time with her as a priority.

She may be a self centered turd. But maybe she just needs some things to look forward to.

Honestly, she sounds like a hard case.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FrancisM

SadSamIAm said:


> My wife is not an affectionate person. She doesn't accept hugs or cuddling. She never initiates them. So when we do cuddle/hug it does typically lead to sex...


This life is certainly interesting. Unlike your situation, my wife is all over me; hugging, kissing etc, and she is a very intelligent and glamorous woman and not just in my eyes, she has done some modeling and other men lust after all the time.

However, we all have our crosses to bear, my wife can also be extremely vicious. For example, in an argument this morning she demanded "over your parents dead bodies, you promise...". 

I lost my dear mum in August, and my equally dear father in 2009. I cannot describe the hurt I experience whilst simultaneously being reminded of my severe grief in the midst of an unreasonable bout of aggression by my wife with whom I hope to start a family. I cannot adequately describe the resulting feelings and thoughts.

Overall, it appears that the odds of finding the right person are not in our favor, and that often someone might tick several 'boxes', however there may be other 'boxes' that can undermine everything else, no matter how hard we try, and for this I have no answers.

Take heart in knowing that many others face these challenges and that many have before us, and that many others will after we are long gone.


----------



## ReturntoZero

SadSam,

I've spent plenty of time in the basement. When I get disrespected, I no longer fight, I just don't tolerate it. I walk away. No one can abuse someone who is not present.

This week, things came to a head. I won't give a bunch of detail, but I told her we needed to talk. She was receptive. I could tell. She admitted she was SURPRISED I wanted to talk. This is actually a good thing. Tells you I'm not chasing.

We had it out. Name-calling. The whole thing. There was some revelation as I had not realized the impact of a few things I've done. With introspection, I was able to issue the apology she accepted. Humble, heartfelt, and true.

We've had sex 7 times in 2-3 days. It gets hotter each time. If one of us is asleep, the other has been masturbating thinking about the next time. We've been married ten years.

I don't like being played. Do you?


----------



## ReturntoZero

FrancisM said:


> This life is certainly interesting. Unlike your situation, my wife is all over me; hugging, kissing etc, and she is a very intelligent and glamorous woman and not just in my eyes, she has done some modeling and other men lust after all the time.
> 
> However, we all have our crosses to bear, my wife can also be extremely vicious. For example, in an argument this morning she demanded "over your parents dead bodies, you promise...".
> 
> I lost my dear mum in August, and my equally dear father in 2009. I cannot describe the hurt I experience whilst simultaneously being reminded of my severe grief in the midst of an unreasonable bout of aggression by my wife with whom I hope to start a family. I cannot adequately describe the resulting feelings and thoughts.
> 
> Overall, it appears that the odds of finding the right person are not in our favor, and that often someone might tick several 'boxes', however there may be other 'boxes' that can undermine everything else, no matter how hard we try, and for this I have no answers.
> 
> Take heart in knowing that many others face these challenges and that many have before us, and that many others will after we are long gone.


Francis,

Women who push boundaries are generally the hottest lovers.

Caveat emptor.


----------



## farsidejunky

FrancisM said:


> This life is certainly interesting. Unlike your situation, my wife is all over me; hugging, kissing etc, and she is a very intelligent and glamorous woman and not just in my eyes, she has done some modeling and other men lust after all the time.
> 
> However, we all have our crosses to bear, my wife can also be extremely vicious. For example, in an argument this morning she demanded "over your parents dead bodies, you promise...".
> 
> I lost my dear mum in August, and my equally dear father in 2009. I cannot describe the hurt I experience whilst simultaneously being reminded of my severe grief in the midst of an unreasonable bout of aggression by my wife with whom I hope to start a family. I cannot adequately describe the resulting feelings and thoughts.
> 
> Overall, it appears that the odds of finding the right person are not in our favor, and that often someone might tick several 'boxes', however there may be other 'boxes' that can undermine everything else, no matter how hard we try, and for this I have no answers.
> 
> Take heart in knowing that many others face these challenges and that many have before us, and that many others will after we are long gone.


It reinforces to me what I learned in dating. I have never dated a smoking hot girl I had any inclination to marry.

Anecdotal, sure. But...I'll take cute and values oriented over smoking hot with issues any day of the week.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Evinrude58

All I'm sayin' is that if I didn't get sex from my hot wife only once a month normally, but every night I had great sex with her on a vacation trip, we'd be buying an rv and touring all the national parks for at least a month or two a year.😋

Sam, you need a vacation when you finish the busy season.😇
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

ReturntoZero said:


> Caveat emptor.


QFT.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

Evinrude58 said:


> All I'm sayin' is that if I didn't get sex from my hot wife only once a month normally, but every night I had great sex with her on a vacation trip, we'd be buying an rv and touring all the national parks for at least a month or two a year.😋
> 
> Sam, you need a vacation when you finish the busy season.😇
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Haha  I almost asked him how he felt about RV's


----------



## MEM2020

Sam,
There's something in your dynamic - and means it is half you - that creates this hostile tone. 

As a neutral third party I'll share this observation with you. You've never focused on addressing that broken dynamic. Not really. Your main focus has been to get MORE sex than you have been getting. 

We're all wired differently. My high drive came paired with a circuit breaker. Hit the breaker and my desire to touch you, disappears. My desire to have sex with you goes with it. 

That circuit breaker made for a good marriage. When M2 was behaving badly - I focused solely on THAT. Not on blowing past it so I could start getting laid again. But on whatever was driving the ugly behavior. 

This isn't about aggression. Aggression simply turns conflict into combat. 

Watch how this works. 

H: describing whatever 
W: giving him the 'you're an idiot' subtext (this is sort of contempt lite - it's the superior expressing their frustration with an inferior)
H: tilting his head (confused) asking in a neutral tone: do you think I (don't know what I'm doing, don't know what I'm talking about, am approaching this badly)? Or alternatively: Are you upset with me about something? 

Sometimes these bad behaviors come from insecurity. They can be a primate pecking order/positioning thing. 

Let me start with how to make it worse. Because I have a lot of experience having done that. 
- Anger
- Defensiveness 

But ignoring it is foolish. 

It is impossible to CONNECT with someone who is radiating contempt at you. Until you resolve that - nothing else will improve. 

There are lots of direct, effective responses to this. Most of them are questions. If you don't make this about YOU, and are genuinely seeking to understand, you will achieve understanding.

In a way - her posture toward you is competitive. She's competing for position. Why? Are you triggering that? Or is it simply her default setting? 

I ALSO think, and have from the beginning - that you are often crowding her either spatially, emotionally or both. She goes into porcupine mode to get you to step back. 

The board is full of guys who say: she isn't really all that into physical touch. She allows it, but doesn't really LIKE it. 

If you can't fix that, it's unrealistic to expect to fix your sex life. 




SadSamIAm said:


> This is my plan.


----------



## john117

The next step is to find out WHY she's not into physical touch... Not too many choices or diagnoses.


----------



## SadSamIAm

MEM11363 said:


> Sam,
> There's something in your dynamic - and means it is half you - that creates this hostile tone.
> 
> As a neutral third party I'll share this observation with you. You've never focused on addressing that broken dynamic. Not really. Your main focus has been to get MORE sex than you have been getting.
> 
> We're all wired differently. My high drive came paired with a circuit breaker. Hit the breaker and my desire to touch you, disappears. My desire to have sex with you goes with it.
> 
> That circuit breaker made for a good marriage. When M2 was behaving badly - I focused solely on THAT. Not on blowing past it so I could start getting laid again. But on whatever was driving the ugly behavior.
> 
> This isn't about aggression. Aggression simply turns conflict into combat.
> 
> Watch how this works.
> 
> H: describing whatever
> W: giving him the 'you're an idiot' subtext (this is sort of contempt lite - it's the superior expressing their frustration with an inferior)
> H: tilting his head (confused) asking in a neutral tone: do you think I (don't know what I'm doing, don't know what I'm talking about, am approaching this badly)? Or alternatively: Are you upset with me about something?
> 
> Sometimes these bad behaviors come from insecurity. They can be a primate pecking order/positioning thing.
> 
> Let me start with how to make it worse. Because I have a lot of experience having done that.
> - Anger
> - Defensiveness
> 
> But ignoring it is foolish.
> 
> It is impossible to CONNECT with someone who is radiating contempt at you. Until you resolve that - nothing else will improve.
> 
> There are lots of direct, effective responses to this. Most of them are questions. If you don't make this about YOU, and are genuinely seeking to understand, you will achieve understanding.
> 
> In a way - her posture toward you is competitive. She's competing for position. Why? Are you triggering that? Or is it simply her default setting?
> 
> I ALSO think, and have from the beginning - that you are often crowding her either spatially, emotionally or both. She goes into porcupine mode to get you to step back.
> 
> The board is full of guys who say: she isn't really all that into physical touch. She allows it, but doesn't really LIKE it.
> 
> If you can't fix that, it's unrealistic to expect to fix your sex life.


The weekend was filled with:

H: describing whatever
W: giving him the 'you're an idiot' subtext (this is sort of contempt lite - it's the superior expressing their frustration with an inferior)
H: tilting his head (confused) asking in a neutral tone: do you think I (don't know what I'm doing, don't know what I'm talking about, am approaching this badly)? Or alternatively: Are you upset with me about something?

Sometimes these bad behaviors come from insecurity. They can be a primate pecking order/positioning thing.

Let me start with how to make it worse. Because I have a lot of experience having done that.
- Anger
- Defensiveness

But ignoring it is foolish. 

I have stopped getting angry and defensive about it. I am not ignoring it either.

I am calling her on it when it happens, ("Why the tone?" "Why are you trying to start a fight?").

Not sure how long I can (or should) put up with it though. She needs to realize that I am trying to change. Meet her needs. 

She needs to realize that she has some changes to make as well. We are going to have have that conversation right away if she continues to block my efforts.


----------



## john117

If you have normal responses to normal issues and she does not see them as such then there's one of the problems. It could also be push/pull behavior, or simply a way to sabotage your efforts due to her own insecurities.

Walk away next time she's in this mood, and tell her you can discuss it rationally or not.


----------



## MEM2020

Sam,

I admit to being puzzled by your comment: not sure how long I can or should put up with it....

----------

This is a very long standing pattern. One that, you've largely ignored for your own reasons. 

So now I'm going to make an observation that might seem unfair, but it really isn't. 

Her behavior, whether it's driven by competitiveness or a porcupine style response, reflects a foundation of unhappiness. I'm not assigning you responsibility for making her happy. 

But I will say, that she's been doing this for a long long time. And during all that time, you're approach wasn't to stop and reflect: Gee S2 is frequently unhappy when I'm around. She expresses it badly. Uses contempt to push me away. But that aside, she's unhappy. Why is that? What's making her unhappy? How can I help her? 

Instead, you sort of self describe your focus as being more: how can I navigate past all this crappy behavior, so I can get laid. 


This is a broader statement but overall consistent with what I see. 

The average guy, is hopelessly outmatched by his wife where conflict is concerned. So his response to conflict is often to try to end it as fast as humanly possible. As opposed to hanging tough, and taking a painful (emotional) beating until he actually understands what's really causing it. 

This avoidance behavior, not only prevents true comprehension of the underlying issue, but it creates a perception of weakness that kills respect, love and desire. 

And almost all of this is the natural result of two deeply hard wired male traits:
1. Fighting is a competition. It's about winning or losing. A draw (tie), while possible is very rare. 
2. When faced with a stronger opponent, try to end the fight as quickly as possible. Otherwise you're just taking a bad beating for nothing. 

This response pattern is toxic. Marital conflict - the good kind - is focused on comprehension not conquest. 





SadSamIAm said:


> The weekend was filled with:
> 
> H: describing whatever
> W: giving him the 'you're an idiot' subtext (this is sort of contempt lite - it's the superior expressing their frustration with an inferior)
> H: tilting his head (confused) asking in a neutral tone: do you think I (don't know what I'm doing, don't know what I'm talking about, am approaching this badly)? Or alternatively: Are you upset with me about something?
> 
> Sometimes these bad behaviors come from insecurity. They can be a primate pecking order/positioning thing.
> 
> Let me start with how to make it worse. Because I have a lot of experience having done that.
> - Anger
> - Defensiveness
> 
> But ignoring it is foolish.
> 
> I have stopped getting angry and defensive about it. I am not ignoring it either.
> 
> I am calling her on it when it happens, ("Why the tone?" "Why are you trying to start a fight?").
> 
> Not sure how long I can (or should) put up with it though. She needs to realize that I am trying to change. Meet her needs.
> 
> She needs to realize that she has some changes to make as well. We are going to have have that conversation right away if she continues to block my efforts.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I am calling her on it when it happens, ("Why the tone?" "Why are you trying to start a fight?").


Sounds like you are blaming her, accusing her.

If you get the feeling she thinks you are an idiot, it is probably because she feels misunderstood. Her frustration comes across as contempt.


----------



## Evinrude58

MEM11363 said:


> Sam,
> 
> I admit to being puzzled by your comment: not sure how long I can or should put up with it....
> 
> ----------
> 
> This is a very long standing pattern. One that, you've largely ignored for your own reasons.
> 
> So now I'm going to make an observation that might seem unfair, but it really isn't.
> 
> Her behavior, whether it's driven by competitiveness or a porcupine style response, reflects a foundation of unhappiness. I'm not assigning you responsibility for making her happy.
> 
> But I will say, that she's been doing this for a long long time. And during all that time, you're approach wasn't to stop and reflect: Gee S2 is frequently unhappy when I'm around. She expresses it badly. Uses contempt to push me away. But that aside, she's unhappy. Why is that? What's making her unhappy? How can I help her?
> 
> Instead, you sort of self describe your focus as being more: how can I navigate past all this crappy behavior, so I can get laid.
> 
> 
> This is a broader statement but overall consistent with what I see.
> 
> The average guy, is hopelessly outmatched by his wife where conflict is concerned. So his response to conflict is often to try to end it as fast as humanly possible. As opposed to hanging tough, and taking a painful (emotional) beating until he actually understands what's really causing it.
> 
> This avoidance behavior, not only prevents true comprehension of the underlying issue, but it creates a perception of weakness that kills respect, love and desire.
> 
> And almost all of this is the natural result of two deeply hard wired male traits:
> 1. Fighting is a competition. It's about winning or losing. A draw (tie), while possible is very rare.
> 2. When faced with a stronger opponent, try to end the fight as quickly as possible. Otherwise you're just taking a bad beating for nothing.
> 
> This response pattern is toxic. Marital conflict - the good kind - is focused on comprehension not conquest.


Focus on what WORKS. Spending quality time alone with her, at least on trips, WORKS. Why does it work? Does she feel you neglect her when you're working normally? I'm not seeing how she can have sex with you every night on a vacation and enjoy your company, but at home it's just the opposite. It does sound like there is something consistent at least that you're not catching on to.
Like I said, see if she changes if you give her a vacation to look forward to, spending time with just you.

Do you try telling her "Sweetie, I'm just not getting it. Could you explain this in a different way so I can start to see your perspective?" You have got to figure out a way to get this woman to deal with you like she would a person she doesn't know. Apparently, she has become conditioned to walking over you and treating you like poop because for 25 years you have tolerated it. I think a separation with apparent or real intent to divorce may be one way to shock her into self reflection.
Maybe, and this is probably a stupid idea, tell her you are taping your conversations with her just to analyze yourself and see what tone you are using and how you are coming off to her. It would likely be enlightening for the both of you. But I'm sure she'd take it wrong.

She's been with you 25 years. She obviously loves you, Sam. She may just be a horses rear. I think that's what you're thinking.
Good luck,


----------



## MEM2020

Sam,

Which of these do you use when asking about her day? Do you see the subtext? 

Sam asking S2: 
1. Did you have a good a day?
2. How was your day?
3. What did you do today?
4. What did you do all day?







Evinrude58 said:


> Focus on what WORKS. Spending quality time alone with her, at least on trips, WORKS. Why does it work? Does she feel you neglect her when you're working normally? I'm not seeing how she can have sex with you every night on a vacation and enjoy your company, but at home it's just the opposite. It does sound like there is something consistent at least that you're not catching on to.
> Like I said, see if she changes if you give her a vacation to look forward to, spending time with just you.
> 
> Do you try telling her "Sweetie, I'm just not getting it. Could you explain this in a different way so I can start to see your perspective?" You have got to figure out a way to get this woman to deal with you like she would a person she doesn't know. Apparently, she has become conditioned to walking over you and treating you like poop because for 25 years you have tolerated it. I think a separation with apparent or real intent to divorce may be one way to shock her into self reflection.
> Maybe, and this is probably a stupid idea, tell her you are taping your conversations with her just to analyze yourself and see what tone you are using and how you are coming off to her. It would likely be enlightening for the both of you. But I'm sure she'd take it wrong.
> 
> She's been with you 25 years. She obviously loves you, Sam. She may just be a horses rear. I think that's what you're thinking.
> Good luck,


----------



## 3Xnocharm

MRR said:


> So you think being a better husband is going to change these cycles? You think being nicer and nicer to her is going to fix this?
> 
> Good luck, friend. She has zero respect for you and kissing her a** is not going to change that. You are heading down the wrong path.


THIS a thousand times!


----------



## MRR

jld said:


> Sounds like you are blaming her, accusing her.
> 
> If you get the feeling she thinks you are an idiot, it is probably because she feels misunderstood. Her frustration comes across as contempt.


Id bet the farm it is because does actually think he is an idiot. She openly mocks him in front of his children.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> The weekend was filled with:
> 
> H: describing whatever
> W: giving him the 'you're an idiot' subtext (this is sort of contempt lite - it's the superior expressing their frustration with an inferior)
> H: tilting his head (confused) asking in a neutral tone: do you think I (don't know what I'm doing, don't know what I'm talking about, am approaching this badly)? Or alternatively: Are you upset with me about something?
> 
> Sometimes these bad behaviors come from insecurity. They can be a primate pecking order/positioning thing.
> 
> Let me start with how to make it worse. Because I have a lot of experience having done that.
> - Anger
> - Defensiveness
> 
> But ignoring it is foolish.
> 
> I have stopped getting angry and defensive about it. I am not ignoring it either.
> 
> I am calling her on it when it happens, ("Why the tone?" "Why are you trying to start a fight?").
> 
> Not sure how long I can (or should) put up with it though. She needs to realize that I am trying to change. Meet her needs.
> 
> She needs to realize that she has some changes to make as well. We are going to have have that conversation right away if she continues to block my efforts.


Personally, if I were in your shoes. I would stop trying to engage her, stop trying to meet her needs. She is a big girl and can take care of herself. You need a break from the effort. You are a worn battle axe. Take a hiatus and focus on your own healing for a while. Keep your eyes on your own paper for a while. Don't worry about what she is doing, don't worry about what you are doing right and wrong. Just go talk to another man who is trained in this stuff. If I were in your shoes I would seek out a strong very centered male counselor, one that can give you language to handle her "moods" when you reengage. But right now.... you don't need to engage at all. You need to heal. There is NOTHING that says you have to constantly be working at this thing. Give it a rest, give yourself a rest. Just work, come home and take good care of yourself for now. Let everyone else alone for now. You've traveled a long road and I can tell you need to recharge.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

And I say that cause your tanks are sitting on Empty. You can't meet her needs when your's are running on fumes. And I'm not saying fill your tanks on her effort. She can't or won't so you have to refill them appropriately away or independent from her.

You will still find the need to learn, work, and practice boundaries if you have an incident that requires it, but you just need to primarily focus on filling your tanks, get some wind under your wings. Then try to approach the resentment knot.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Personally, if I were in your shoes. I would stop trying to engage her, stop trying to meet her needs. She is a big girl and can take care of herself. You need a break from the effort. You are a worn battle axe. Take a hiatus and focus on your own healing for a while. Keep your eyes on your own paper for a while. Don't worry about what she is doing, don't worry about what you are doing right and wrong. Just go talk to another man who is trained in this stuff. If I were in your shoes I would seek out a strong very centered male counselor, one that can give you language to handle her "moods" when you reengage. But right now.... you don't need to engage at all. You need to heal. There is NOTHING that says you have to constantly be working at this thing. Give it a rest, give yourself a rest. Just work, come home and take good care of yourself for now. Let everyone else alone for now. You've traveled a long road and I can tell you need to recharge.


Sorry for the lack of responses today with people. Busy day at work.

What you suggest Blossom is sort of what I am doing. Working out is making me feel better about myself. I want to keep that up. I scheduled a massage for myself for tomorrow, so that should help with my sore shoulders and back from lifting.

But I am also going to talk to her. Ask her the questions that MEM mentioned. Like how was your day? Did you win your curling game? I am going to be as upbeat and happy around her as I can. 

If she is negative back to me, I am not going to respond. I am just going to keep busy and keep trying to engage her (and not get grumpy and pout).

I do hope to get her talking. I want to discuss with her about how we are different when away on vacation and what we can do to make our life more like that all the time. I also need to talk to her about why she is so unhappy.


----------



## *Deidre*

I'll just cut right to it. Your wife doesn't respect you. Maybe never has, since you describe this dynamic as going on for a long time. That's pretty much the problem of your marriage, and the fact that you accept it. You can't 'make' someone happy...she strikes me as the type who will blame a guy for her unhappiness. It's not your fault...but unfortunately, it affects your life. Not sure of the resolution, because we can't change others, only ourselves.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> Sorry for the lack of responses today with people. Busy day at work.
> 
> What you suggest Blossom is sort of what I am doing. Working out is making me feel better about myself. I want to keep that up. I scheduled a massage for myself for tomorrow, so that should help with my sore shoulders and back from lifting.
> 
> But I am also going to talk to her. Ask her the questions that MEM mentioned. Like how was your day? Did you win your curling game? I am going to be as upbeat and happy around her as I can.
> 
> If she is negative back to me, I am not going to respond. I am just going to keep busy and keep trying to engage her (and not get grumpy and pout).
> 
> I do hope to get her talking. I want to discuss with her about how we are different when away on vacation and what we can do to make our life more like that all the time. I also need to talk to her about why she is so unhappy.


Then it sounds like you are in a good spot. Sounds great. Rooting you on!


----------



## Marduk

john117 said:


> Not necessarily painful but detaching. I'm getting ready to watch The Martian with the lovely Dr. J2 and I have no interest whatsoever in what happens after the closing titles, if I don't fall asleep in the process.
> 
> I've read the book so...


It's a good movie. Not nearly as good as the book, but it so rarely is.


----------



## Marduk

ReturntoZero said:


> Francis,
> 
> Women who push boundaries are generally the hottest lovers.
> 
> Caveat emptor.


You just floored me.


----------



## ReturntoZero

marduk said:


> You just floored me.


I'll go a bit further. I've heard so many times, "I don't know how you do this.. or that, or whatever"

Ok, I'm not asking anyone else to understand it.

What I do know is this. My wife is a boundary pushing nightmare. But, I understand her behavior. I could post a long exegesis, but I'll settle for a short example:

She had a rotten childhood. Abuse victim. Foster care. Adoption. From her testimony, she associated limits and parental discipline with a lack of love. Not without reason. Imagine being adopted at age 7 and 2 years later, your parents actually have a biological daughter - ON YOUR BIRTHDAY.

She told them, "I'm ready to be sent back now"

Great start, eh?

Teenage years filled with limits and discipline as her parents presented the vaunted "united front". She has told me of using a damp kitchen towel to snap the chore chart until it was shredded.

Rebellion soon followed. Staying out late. Drinking. Partying. Moving out at age 16-17. Pregnant at 19. Adopted mother's comment when she realized what her (adopted) gay son was doing in his life... "I'll be he's been with as many as (RTZ's wife)." Her mother said this OUT LOUD.

Is this a person who will be an effective parent? Will she understand that discipline and limits teach children that their time isn't more important than anyone's on earth? Or, will she resist having them do ANYTHING they don't wish to do? Including showing respect to their stepfather?

If a mother associates that sort of appropriate guidance with her children feeling a lack of love? Will that guidance ever happen?

In short, the poison will be transmitted to the next generation. There's likely no way to avoid it.

As the spouse of such a person, what do you do?

Well, if you find this person as delightful and amusing as I do, you gut out the separations and rationalizations. You maintain your own dignity by not being walked on - which includes withdrawing from situations when the abused child emerges to dump her anger on you. You accept who she is and realize you love her anyway.

And, over time, she realizes that there is one person who is not abandoning her and treasures her gifts. The stepchildren thing will never work out. But, who cares? They're largely gone and making the mistakes you would expect. So, you support her when she shares how sick at heart she is about their plight. And, you make helpful suggestions about what to do next. Not seeking YOUR vindication, but in truly hoping that growth can occur.

i can testify the physical aspect of such a relationship is as rewarding as anything you've ever dreamed of. But, there is a price to pay for our understanding.


----------



## MEM2020

Sad,

A couple more thoughts. Let's triangulate a bit. Who else does your wife give this type of prickly/and or contemptuous treatment to? When you observe that happening, is the trigger obvious? 

When S2 is acting this way towards you, yes you need to ask WHY. But if she can't or won't answer, the best move is not to keep trying to engage her. Instead, it's better to do this: 

If you don't wish to talk, that's ok. And then shut the heck up. 

Because it's counter productive to respond with friendliness to: hostility followed by a refusal to address the source of hostility

Let me share an actual exchange. These are rare, but they happen. 

M2: is being hostile 
MEM: (soft tone) are you upset with me?
M2: (now gas lighting) what do you mean?
MEM: (neutral tone) you don't seem happy, I honestly don't know what's caused that

And that's the end of it for me. I don't mean I stomp off. I mean that - I've now said what there is to say. If she wants to be unpleasant and won't express the why of it, I stop talking. After a while a continue my day - doing whatever - possibly elsewhere. 

When she's ready to talk. She'll talk. It's invasive (IMO) to respond to: what do you mean?
With: You're clearly upset, your tone is ugly. Pretending otherwise is gas lighting, my LEAST favorite behavior. 

Heres why that's invasive. Because she's gonna tell me. Voluntarily. And fairly soon. Water boarding it out of her, implies that I don't trust her to come to her senses. But I DO trust her to come to her senses. So it's best to let that process happen naturally. 

Now here's how this works - for us. YMMV

If she is nice later and pretends like nothing happened, I just ask her if she's 'ok'. If she says and acts like it is, I let it go. Unless - this repeats again in a short time frame. In which case, I just stay in a lite 180 til she decides to actually communicate. I'm not an advocate of pretending everything is ok, when it clearly isn't. 






SadSamIAm said:


> Sorry for the lack of responses today with people. Busy day at work.
> 
> What you suggest Blossom is sort of what I am doing. Working out is making me feel better about myself. I want to keep that up. I scheduled a massage for myself for tomorrow, so that should help with my sore shoulders and back from lifting.
> 
> But I am also going to talk to her. Ask her the questions that MEM mentioned. Like how was your day? Did you win your curling game? I am going to be as upbeat and happy around her as I can.
> 
> If she is negative back to me, I am not going to respond. I am just going to keep busy and keep trying to engage her (and not get grumpy and pout).
> 
> I do hope to get her talking. I want to discuss with her about how we are different when away on vacation and what we can do to make our life more like that all the time. I also need to talk to her about why she is so unhappy.


----------



## ReturntoZero

Furthermore, real progress starts once you give up on the idea that you have to win "this one".

As MEM says, let it lie. I prefer the question, "How is this helpful"? There often isn't an answer - we both know why. I generally walk away from that stuff and live to rock another day.

If I'm ok the next day, I proceed as if everything is fine. If I encounter snark or some other disrespect, the question gets repeated, "How is this helpful" And, the same withdrawal happens again.

Eventually, she's ready to talk. And, when she is you have to be ready to hear something you didn't think about. IF you do, own it and humbly apologize. Don't accept BS excuses, but use your judgment as to how things may have appeared to her. You can always tell when someone is gaslighting and when it's legit. There's a real ring of truth behind a clear violation. Gaslighting always requires suspension of disbelief to exonerate her.

IF your overriding purpose is connection and NOT simply physical gratification, you'll have the discernment to see which is which.

Always remember, initiating physical closeness with someone that's playing you is the absolute best formula to get profuse disrespect. It's an emotional "thank you" for bad treatment.


----------



## MEM2020

QFT

I guess - part of this is predicated on trusting yourself. I'm keenly aware of the rare and painful moments when I'm really upset. 

So if I know I was at my normal steady state - calm - easy going etc. and M2 says: you were being a jerk to me the other day.

I KNOW what's happening. Yeah yeah I'm aware that on occasion we all say things accidentally that are ambiguous or hurtful. But mostly I recognize those in the moment.

The result of being self aware, is that gaslighting doesn't work with me. I know when it's happening and then I become patient. 

After a second round I will call it out. Just not in a scorched earth manner. 





ReturntoZero said:


> Furthermore, real progress starts once you give up on the idea that you have to win "this one".
> 
> As MEM says, let it lie. I prefer the question, "How is this helpful"? There often isn't an answer - we both know why. I generally walk away from that stuff and live to rock another day.
> 
> If I'm ok the next day, I proceed as if everything is fine. If I encounter snark or some other disrespect, the question gets repeated, "How is this helpful" And, the same withdrawal happens again.
> 
> Eventually, she's ready to talk. And, when she is you have to be ready to hear something you didn't think about. IF you do, own it and humbly apologize. Don't accept BS excuses, but use your judgment as to how things may have appeared to her. You can always tell when someone is gaslighting and when it's legit. There's a real ring of truth behind a clear violation. Gaslighting always requires suspension of disbelief to exonerate her.
> 
> IF your overriding purpose is connection and NOT simply physical gratification, you'll have the discernment to see which is which.
> 
> Always remember, initiating physical closeness with someone that's playing you is the absolute best formula to get profuse disrespect. It's an emotional "thank you" for bad treatment.


----------



## Marduk

ReturntoZero said:


> Furthermore, real progress starts once you give up on the idea that you have to win "this one".
> 
> As MEM says, let it lie. I prefer the question, "How is this helpful"? There often isn't an answer - we both know why. I generally walk away from that stuff and live to rock another day.
> 
> If I'm ok the next day, I proceed as if everything is fine. If I encounter snark or some other disrespect, the question gets repeated, "How is this helpful" And, the same withdrawal happens again.
> 
> Eventually, she's ready to talk. And, when she is you have to be ready to hear something you didn't think about. IF you do, own it and humbly apologize. Don't accept BS excuses, but use your judgment as to how things may have appeared to her. You can always tell when someone is gaslighting and when it's legit. There's a real ring of truth behind a clear violation. Gaslighting always requires suspension of disbelief to exonerate her.
> 
> IF your overriding purpose is connection and NOT simply physical gratification, you'll have the discernment to see which is which.
> 
> Always remember, initiating physical closeness with someone that's playing you is the absolute best formula to get profuse disrespect. It's an emotional "thank you" for bad treatment.


Exactly what works.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MRR

Your plan to keep working out and being upbeat is a solid one. Yes, talk to her and be happy regardless of how she is back to you. Keep doing YOUR thing, make yourself happy (THAT is attractive) and ignore her negativity. 

***I highly recommend that you do NOT attempt to have conversations about 'the relationship' or 'the marriage'. Has that EVER gotten you anywhere? ***

As you continue to become the best version of yourself, you should find people in general are more positive towards you. She can either come along with you, or eventually YOU will realize you deserve better.


----------



## MEM2020

Sam,
If you don't understand WHY she is behaving negatively towards you, it isn't possible to help her. 

The difference between her feeling insecure, vs claustrophobic / crowded is huge. 

So that has to be your focus. 





MRR said:


> Your plan to keep working out and being upbeat is a solid one. Yes, talk to her and be happy regardless of how she is back to you. Keep doing YOUR thing, make yourself happy (THAT is attractive) and ignore her negativity.
> 
> ***I highly recommend that you do NOT attempt to have conversations about 'the relationship' or 'the marriage'. Has that EVER gotten you anywhere? ***
> 
> As you continue to become the best version of yourself, you should find people in general are more positive towards you. She can either come along with you, or eventually YOU will realize you deserve better.


----------



## MEM2020

Just to be precise.

I 100% agree Sam ought to avoid conversations about the marriage. These include global statements about: emotional intimacy, sex, or anything else. 

It is absolutely necessary that he initiate discussions aimed at understanding WHY S2 so often behaves in a contentious / overtly negative way towards him. 

I'm going to give you two layers of subtext analysis. 
Top layer: 
Maybe she's feeling insecure and therefore competitive. Maybe crowded and therefore claustrophobic. And AND maybe it's something else entirely. Note, the information provided to date is not sufficient for me to assign even qualitative probabilities. 

Bottom layer: this one is easy
She IS unhappy. I don't need to know WHY, to know this is true. Happy people don't consistently radiate negative energy at their spouses without any type of explanation. 

Here's why this matters. If you are clearly unhappy. And I totally ignore that fact while continuing to interact with you, you are going to believe that I DONT CARE how you feel. 

That is really bad. Relentless cheerfulness in this case, is very likely to be perceived as indifference. 











MRR said:


> Your plan to keep working out and being upbeat is a solid one. Yes, talk to her and be happy regardless of how she is back to you. Keep doing YOUR thing, make yourself happy (THAT is attractive) and ignore her negativity.
> 
> ***I highly recommend that you do NOT attempt to have conversations about 'the relationship' or 'the marriage'. Has that EVER gotten you anywhere? ***
> 
> As you continue to become the best version of yourself, you should find people in general are more positive towards you. She can either come along with you, or eventually YOU will realize you deserve better.


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Just to be precise.
> 
> I 100% agree Sam ought to avoid conversations about the marriage. These include global statements about: emotional intimacy, sex, or anything else.
> 
> It is absolutely necessary that he initiate discussions aimed at understanding WHY S2 so often behaves in a contentious / overtly negative way towards him.
> 
> I'm going to give you two layers of subtext analysis.
> Top layer:
> Maybe she's feeling insecure and therefore competitive. Maybe crowded and therefore claustrophobic. And AND maybe it's something else entirely. Note, the information provided to date is not sufficient for me to assign even qualitative probabilities.
> 
> Bottom layer: this one is easy
> She IS unhappy. I don't need to know WHY, to know this is true. Happy people don't consistently radiate negative energy at their spouses without any type of explanation.
> 
> Here's why this matters. If you are clearly unhappy. And I totally ignore that fact while continuing to interact with you, you are going to believe that I DONT CARE how you feel.
> 
> That is really bad. Relentless cheerfulness in this case, is very likely to be perceived as indifference.


Mmm... _maybe._

Or maybe she just behaves that way because she can, and she gets power out of it. And a husband who kisses her ass the more she does it.

That kind of power is intoxicating, and it's been going on long enough there's deep ruts.

Deep ruts require pulling on the steering wheel pretty hard to get out of.

What I would recommend would be pretty simple, and trigger a pretty dramatic response as a consequence.

However it may of course end the relationship within days.


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## farsidejunky

marduk said:


> Mmm... _maybe._
> 
> Or maybe she just behaves that way because she can, and she gets power out of it. And a husband who kisses her ass the more she does it.
> 
> That kind of power is intoxicating, and it's been going on long enough there's deep ruts.
> 
> Deep ruts require pulling on the steering wheel pretty hard to get out of.
> 
> What I would recommend would be pretty simple, and trigger a pretty dramatic response as a consequence.
> 
> However it may of course end the relationship within days.


Is this possible? Sure. But I find it improbable.

It does not align with the person begging him not to leave the marriage.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## turnera

marduk said:


> Mmm... _maybe._
> 
> Or maybe she just behaves that way because she can, and she gets power out of it. And a husband who kisses her ass the more she does it.


I've done this for so long that I've found myself with my foot in my mouth many times, for having 'assumed to know' why a person acts the way they do. So what I try to do now (not always successfully) is to first remind myself I have NO idea what their FOO was like, nor do I know what their personality is like. Those two things are the strongest determinators of why a person does what they do - and NOT what the OP is saying or doing.

Yes, the OP who comes here is often sabotaging himself/herself, but there IS another player in the act, and that person may or may not respond how we expect. 

Out of my dad's treachery and my mom's alcoholism/workaholism, my brother grew up the needy one and I grew up the walled-off one. Both are borne out of low self esteem from the FOO, but that personality difference determined how we each dealt with our stuff later in life. I don't ask for help from anyone. I'll try my damnedest to ever ask for help. My brother will cry on anyone's shoulder who'll take him. I see him as weak. He sees me as cold and cruel. Neither of us are happy.

I'm just saying, without more information on the OP's spouse, we may come up with harmful or ineffective advice.


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## ReturntoZero

farsidejunky said:


> Is this possible? Sure. But I find it improbable.
> 
> It does not align with the person begging him not to leave the marriage.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


"I hate you, don't leave me"

It's the title of a friggin BOOK.


----------



## farsidejunky

ReturntoZero said:


> "I hate you, don't leave me"
> 
> It's the title of a friggin BOOK.


About BPD, right?

I don't think his wife has BPD. But I am not a psychiatrist, so take my advice for its free and marginal content.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020

Turnera,

Warm or cold be damned. You've got brains and balls.

And I have seen no cruelty whatsoever in your nature. 



turnera said:


> I've done this for so long that I've found myself with my foot in my mouth many times, for having 'assumed to know' why a person acts the way they do. So what I try to do now (not always successfully) is to first remind myself I have NO idea what their FOO was like, nor do I know what their personality is like. Those two things are the strongest determinators of why a person does what they do - and NOT what the OP is saying or doing.
> 
> Yes, the OP who comes here is often sabotaging himself/herself, but there IS another player in the act, and that person may or may not respond how we expect.
> 
> Out of my dad's treachery and my mom's alcoholism/workaholism, my brother grew up the needy one and I grew up the walled-off one. Both are borne out of low self esteem from the FOO, but that personality difference determined how we each dealt with our stuff later in life. I don't ask for help from anyone. I'll try my damnedest to ever ask for help. My brother will cry on anyone's shoulder who'll take him. I see him as weak. He sees me as cold and cruel. Neither of us are happy.
> 
> I'm just saying, without more information on the OP's spouse, we may come up with harmful or ineffective advice.


----------



## *Deidre*

MRR said:


> Your plan to keep working out and being upbeat is a solid one. Yes, talk to her and be happy regardless of how she is back to you. Keep doing YOUR thing, make yourself happy (THAT is attractive) and ignore her negativity.
> 
> ***I highly recommend that you do NOT attempt to have conversations about 'the relationship' or 'the marriage'. Has that EVER gotten you anywhere? ***
> 
> As you continue to become the best version of yourself, you should find people in general are more positive towards you. She can either come along with you, or eventually YOU will realize you deserve better.


This deserves many 'likes' :laugh: Excellent post.


----------



## Openminded

Only she knows why she didn't want a divorce when the opportunity was there. Maybe she's in love with him. Maybe not. People remain married for reasons other than love. Maybe she wants to keep her family intact. Maybe she doesn't want to face the thought of "failure". Maybe she worries about what her family and friends would think. Maybe she fears the unknown. Who knows. But her desire to stay in the marriage obviously didn't mean a better marriage. She's apparently comfortable with what she has. 

Change is difficult enough even when you want very much to. It's hard work and easy to give up on. Maybe she doesn't know how to change without help. Finding the right MC could be the first step.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Openminded said:


> Only she knows why she didn't want a divorce when the opportunity was there. Maybe she's in love with him. Maybe not. People remain married for reasons other than love. Maybe she wants to keep her family intact. Maybe she doesn't want to face the thought of "failure". Maybe she worries about what her family and friends would think. Maybe she fears the unknown. Who knows. But her desire to stay in the marriage obviously didn't mean a better marriage. She's apparently comfortable with what she has.
> 
> Change is difficult enough even when you want very much to. It's hard work and easy to give up on. Maybe she doesn't know how to change without help. Finding the right MC could be the first step.


Excellent points!


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> Is this possible? Sure. But I find it improbable.
> 
> It does not align with the person begging him not to leave the marriage.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think it lines up with it exceptionally well.

She's insecure and has found security in someone who lets her control him.

Where is she going to find that again? When she likely feels like age is a factor?

It's part of her insecurity that she needs him, and yet controls him by pushing him away.

It's a lot more direct in terms of stimulus/response patterns than wringing your hands trying to find other reasons.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> About BPD, right?
> 
> I don't think his wife has BPD. But I am not a psychiatrist, so take my advice for its free and marginal content.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I don't think it necessitates BPD.

I mean, think about it.

Chick is hot. Hot chick marries guy.

Guy becomes less hot, more $. Ignores her just a little bit. Add to that she feels old... and she works out like crazy to be hot.

So she feels better than him. Treats him like ****. Instead of treating it directly, he kisses her ass. She gets off on the newfound security of being in charge, and being the hot one again like when she's young.

Only it doesn't really make her secure, because he leaves her. She freaks out because it hammers her insecurity/old triggers, so she begs to get him back. 

And when he comes back, she quickly puts him back in his place.

And there's no sex, because having a guy that kisses your ass generally isn't sexy, and having good sex involves willfully giving up some control.

Seems basic to me.


----------



## Marduk

turnera said:


> I've done this for so long that I've found myself with my foot in my mouth many times, for having 'assumed to know' why a person acts the way they do. So what I try to do now (not always successfully) is to first remind myself I have NO idea what their FOO was like, nor do I know what their personality is like. Those two things are the strongest determinators of why a person does what they do - and NOT what the OP is saying or doing.
> 
> Yes, the OP who comes here is often sabotaging himself/herself, but there IS another player in the act, and that person may or may not respond how we expect.
> 
> Out of my dad's treachery and my mom's alcoholism/workaholism, my brother grew up the needy one and I grew up the walled-off one. Both are borne out of low self esteem from the FOO, but that personality difference determined how we each dealt with our stuff later in life. I don't ask for help from anyone. I'll try my damnedest to ever ask for help. My brother will cry on anyone's shoulder who'll take him. I see him as weak. He sees me as cold and cruel. Neither of us are happy.
> 
> I'm just saying, without more information on the OP's spouse, we may come up with harmful or ineffective advice.


Bah. The worst thing he can do is to keep doing what he's been doing for years.

Threatening to leave, yet not leaving. Kissing her ass when she acts out. Letting her be in charge, worrying about glasses and sinks.


----------



## MEM2020

Marduk,
I believe your analysis below is correct. 

Let me share a few observations here. Sam earns enough money to divorce and still be a one percenter even after writing a giant annual alimony check. While he finds the notion painful, it's not the reason he sticks around. 

Sam,
It is true that you can achieve rapid (but temporary) improvement via what my brothers euphemistically refer to as destabilization. This is a term I try to avoid as it isn't precise. The real term for your strategy would be called fear. You'd be achieving results, by frightening S2. 

I'm going to remove any type of moral component from my analysis. This isn't about what's right or wrong. I'll leave that to your pastor, priest, minister, rabbi or if you aren't a practitioner of modern religion, your conscience. 

Instead I'd rather address this purely in terms of outcome. I'll begin with the impact on you. 

Because you my man, came hard wired with a familial protection module. It's seamlessly meshed into your identity. Can't remove it. Can't disable it. Therefore you are psychologically incapable of using fear in a calculated manner, to achieve your goals. 

That doesn't mean you're incapable of leaving. It means you're incapable of using the prospect of leaving as a lever. A weapon. 

You really ought make a decision. A real decision. Decide to either lead your marriage into the land of milk and honey. Or acknowledge you lack the strength to do so and end it as amicably as possible. 

And start recording every single conversation. Not so you can create leverage. But so you can try to understand why you have a thriving business based on a whole bunch of customers who like, respect and trust you. And yet a wife who largely doesn't. 





marduk said:


> I don't think it necessitates BPD.
> 
> I mean, think about it.
> 
> Chick is hot. Hot chick marries guy.
> 
> Guy becomes less hot, more $. Ignores her just a little bit. Add to that she feels old... and she works out like crazy to be hot.
> 
> So she feels better than him. Treats him like ****. Instead of treating it directly, he kisses her ass. She gets off on the newfound security of being in charge, and being the hot one again like when she's young.
> 
> Only it doesn't really make her secure, because he leaves her. She freaks out because it hammers her insecurity/old triggers, so she begs to get him back.
> 
> And when he comes back, she quickly puts him back in his place.
> 
> And there's no sex, because having a guy that kisses your ass generally isn't sexy, and having good sex involves willfully giving up some control.
> 
> Seems basic to me.


----------



## john117

You can't instill fear in S2 if S2 comes out smelling like a rose in a divorce...


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## Blossom Leigh

He sticks around because he loves her.

And right now the pain of leaving his love is greater than the pain of enduring her contempt.

Sometimes MEM... you over think things my friend


----------



## ReturntoZero

marduk said:


> Bah. The worst thing he can do is to keep doing what he's been doing for years.
> 
> Threatening to leave, yet not leaving. Kissing her ass when she acts out. Letting her be in charge, worrying about glasses and sinks.


No man ever became more attractive to his mate because of how well he loaded the dishwasher.


----------



## ReturntoZero

"Diagnosing" on-line is also a fool's errand. At the same time, we'd also be foolish NOT to take note of human behavior. MEM speaks of how women are experts at low-level conflict. Anyone with a boundary-pushing woman knows this is true in his heart.

But, on the subject of "Borderline Personality Disorder". Isn't this diagnosis merely a "degree" of behavior? If we read about those traits, we can see times that our woman has behaved that way and also times that WE have behaved that way. I always felt the behavior existed on a continuum. And, the diagnosis "could" come from observation of traits present "most of the time".

This brings me to my key point. "Whatever you want more of, you subsidize".

Yes, it's possible for you to bring out the worst in your partner by (as marduk so eloquently states) "kissing her ass". Electricity takes the path of least resistance and people often do the same. Only Sam can answer if he's "fed" these traits during their entire relationship and played a role in creating psychological "rewards" for this behavior.

If he has, embarking on a campaign now to "put a smile on her face" is relationship suicide.


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> I believe your analysis below is correct.
> 
> Let me share a few observations here. Sam earns enough money to divorce and still be a one percenter even after writing a giant annual alimony check. While he finds the notion painful, it's not the reason he sticks around.
> 
> Sam,
> It is true that you can achieve rapid (but temporary) improvement via what my brothers euphemistically refer to as destabilization. This is a term I try to avoid as it isn't precise. The real term for your strategy would be called fear. You'd be achieving results, by frightening S2.
> 
> I'm going to remove any type of moral component from my analysis. This isn't about what's right or wrong. I'll leave that to your pastor, priest, minister, rabbi or if you aren't a practitioner of modern religion, your conscience.
> 
> Instead I'd rather address this purely in terms of outcome. I'll begin with the impact on you.
> 
> Because you my man, came hard wired with a familial protection module. It's seamlessly meshed into your identity. Can't remove it. Can't disable it. Therefore you are psychologically incapable of using fear in a calculated manner, to achieve your goals.
> 
> That doesn't mean you're incapable of leaving. It means you're incapable of using the prospect of leaving as a lever. A weapon.
> 
> You really ought make a decision. A real decision. Decide to either lead your marriage into the land of milk and honey. Or acknowledge you lack the strength to do so and end it as amicably as possible.
> 
> And start recording every single conversation. Not so you can create leverage. But so you can try to understand why you have a thriving business based on a whole bunch of customers who like, respect and trust you. And yet a wife who largely doesn't.


What I would do:

First, disrupt the control dynamic. Just say no, just be out more, just be more decisive, and if you want sex try just throwing her over your shoulder and carry her upstairs and see what happens. Never be whiny though. Laugh openly when she does something silly. 

This will freak her out. 

So, secondly, you reassure her simultaneously. You keep trying to have sex with her and be romantic with her. You tell her why you're with her. You engage her and ffs spend quality time with her. 

There is tension between these two of course, so find your way. 

She will respond by either opening up, or running away.

And that will tell you where her feelings are really at.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

john117 said:


> You can't instill fear in S2 if S2 comes out smelling like a rose in a divorce...


She doesn't care about money. She expects it, but doesn't spend it.

That indicates it's not a thing she's hung up on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

ReturntoZero said:


> "Diagnosing" on-line is also a fool's errand. At the same time, we'd also be foolish NOT to take note of human behavior. MEM speaks of how women are experts at low-level conflict. Anyone with a boundary-pushing woman knows this is true in his heart.
> 
> But, on the subject of "Borderline Personality Disorder". Isn't this diagnosis merely a "degree" of behavior? If we read about those traits, we can see times that our woman has behaved that way and also times that WE have behaved that way. I always felt the behavior existed on a continuum. And, the diagnosis "could" come from observation of traits present "most of the time".
> 
> This brings me to my key point. "Whatever you want more of, you subsidize".
> 
> Yes, it's possible for you to bring out the worst in your partner by (as marduk so eloquently states) "kissing her ass". Electricity takes the path of least resistance and people often do the same. Only Sam can answer if he's "fed" these traits during their entire relationship and played a role in creating psychological "rewards" for this behavior.
> 
> If he has, embarking on a campaign now to "put a smile on her face" is relationship suicide.


I mentioned BPD to our MC when I was in with her on my own. 

And the MC said that almost anybody can display BPD traits when under stress or anxiety at high enough levels. 

Without being BPD. But you treat it kinda he same, only its not chronic or something you get hung up on.

So I think the book you indicated would be a good idea, and also learning about it, without labelling her. That helped me. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

marduk said:


> She doesn't care about money. She expects it, but doesn't spend it.
> 
> That indicates it's not a thing she's hung up on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not money. 

Having nobody to paw at her (from her point of view). Peace of mind.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

john117 said:


> Not money.
> 
> Having nobody to paw at her (from her point of view). Peace of mind.


I think she is so wrapped up in preconceived expectations that she doesn't see how badly she is missing out on HIS way.

Sad.


----------



## SadSamIAm

ReturntoZero said:


> I'll go a bit further. I've heard so many times, "I don't know how you do this.. or that, or whatever"
> 
> Ok, I'm not asking anyone else to understand it.
> 
> What I do know is this. My wife is a boundary pushing nightmare. But, I understand her behavior. I could post a long exegesis, but I'll settle for a short example:
> 
> She had a rotten childhood. Abuse victim. Foster care. Adoption. From her testimony, she associated limits and parental discipline with a lack of love. Not without reason. Imagine being adopted at age 7 and 2 years later, your parents actually have a biological daughter - ON YOUR BIRTHDAY.
> 
> She told them, "I'm ready to be sent back now"
> 
> Great start, eh?
> 
> Teenage years filled with limits and discipline as her parents presented the vaunted "united front". She has told me of using a damp kitchen towel to snap the chore chart until it was shredded.
> 
> Rebellion soon followed. Staying out late. Drinking. Partying. Moving out at age 16-17. Pregnant at 19. Adopted mother's comment when she realized what her (adopted) gay son was doing in his life... "I'll be he's been with as many as (RTZ's wife)." Her mother said this OUT LOUD.
> 
> Is this a person who will be an effective parent? Will she understand that discipline and limits teach children that their time isn't more important than anyone's on earth? Or, will she resist having them do ANYTHING they don't wish to do? Including showing respect to their stepfather?
> 
> If a mother associates that sort of appropriate guidance with her children feeling a lack of love? Will that guidance ever happen?
> 
> In short, the poison will be transmitted to the next generation. There's likely no way to avoid it.
> 
> As the spouse of such a person, what do you do?
> 
> Well, if you find this person as delightful and amusing as I do, you gut out the separations and rationalizations. You maintain your own dignity by not being walked on - which includes withdrawing from situations when the abused child emerges to dump her anger on you. You accept who she is and realize you love her anyway.


Your story resonates with me. My wife grew up in a home with an alcoholic father and a weak mother. Lots of conflict and verbal abuse. Not as bad as your wife, but I it has affected her more than I realized. 

When she dumps her anger on me, for years I mostly withdrew. After a short period of time, we would make up. Sex was great. That has probably gone on for the last 20 years. Five good years with very little conflict. Then 20 years of what you describe above.

As time went on, the amount of time between the anger and the makeup has gotten longer. The great sex, less frequent. Instead of withdrawing, I have been fighting back some which has caused longer and deeper arguments.



> And, over time, she realizes that there is one person who is not abandoning her and treasures her gifts. The stepchildren thing will never work out. But, who cares? They're largely gone and making the mistakes you would expect. So, you support her when she shares how sick at heart she is about their plight. And, you make helpful suggestions about what to do next. Not seeking YOUR vindication, but in truly hoping that growth can occur.
> 
> i can testify the physical aspect of such a relationship is as rewarding as anything you've ever dreamed of. But, there is a price to pay for our understanding.


Maybe this is where I went wrong. It got so bad that I was ready to abandon her (at least I thought I was). I think that hurt her more than I realize. She thought I would be her punching bag forever. She probably figures she wasn't that bad, since I put up with it for 20 years.


----------



## SadSamIAm

turnera said:


> I've done this for so long that I've found myself with my foot in my mouth many times, for having 'assumed to know' why a person acts the way they do. So what I try to do now (not always successfully) is to first remind myself I have NO idea what their FOO was like, nor do I know what their personality is like. Those two things are the strongest determinators of why a person does what they do - and NOT what the OP is saying or doing.
> 
> Yes, the OP who comes here is often sabotaging himself/herself, but there IS another player in the act, and that person may or may not respond how we expect.
> 
> Out of my dad's treachery and my mom's alcoholism/workaholism, my brother grew up the needy one and I grew up the walled-off one. Both are borne out of low self esteem from the FOO, but that personality difference determined how we each dealt with our stuff later in life. I don't ask for help from anyone. I'll try my damnedest to ever ask for help. My brother will cry on anyone's shoulder who'll take him. I see him as weak. He sees me as cold and cruel. Neither of us are happy.
> 
> I'm just saying, without more information on the OP's spouse, we may come up with harmful or ineffective advice.


My wife is the cold and cruel one. So is her sister. Their brother is the weak one. None of them are happy either.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Openminded said:


> Only she knows why she didn't want a divorce when the opportunity was there. Maybe she's in love with him. Maybe not. People remain married for reasons other than love. Maybe she wants to keep her family intact. Maybe she doesn't want to face the thought of "failure". Maybe she worries about what her family and friends would think. Maybe she fears the unknown. Who knows. But her desire to stay in the marriage obviously didn't mean a better marriage. She's apparently comfortable with what she has.
> 
> Change is difficult enough even when you want very much to. It's hard work and easy to give up on. Maybe she doesn't know how to change without help. Finding the right MC could be the first step.


I believe all the reasons you mention above are part of the reason she stays. Not sure where her love for me ranks in the list. Like you say, only she knows.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> Maybe this is where I went wrong. It got so bad that I was ready to abandon her (at least I thought I was). I think that hurt her more than I realize. She thought I would be her punching bag forever. She probably figures she wasn't that bad, since I put up with it for 20 years.


This is the tricky part in these kinds of relationships. Everyone has their breaking point. She NEEDED to know she does run the risk of losing you if she doesn't choose better. You DONT want to abandon her, it's not part of your make up, you see its one of the core issues that drives her behavior, but rattling her is just enough of a pattern interrupt to wake her up to what she is doing IF its long enough and done in a way that says... "I am going away for now because I no longer want to be treated this way.... (but here is the important part) WHEN you choose better, I WILL be back."


----------



## SadSamIAm

MEM11363 said:


> Marduk,
> I believe your analysis below is correct.
> 
> Let me share a few observations here. Sam earns enough money to divorce and still be a one percenter even after writing a giant annual alimony check. While he finds the notion painful, it's not the reason he sticks around.
> 
> Sam,
> It is true that you can achieve rapid (but temporary) improvement via what my brothers euphemistically refer to as destabilization. This is a term I try to avoid as it isn't precise. The real term for your strategy would be called fear. You'd be achieving results, by frightening S2.
> 
> I'm going to remove any type of moral component from my analysis. This isn't about what's right or wrong. I'll leave that to your pastor, priest, minister, rabbi or if you aren't a practitioner of modern religion, your conscience.
> 
> Instead I'd rather address this purely in terms of outcome. I'll begin with the impact on you.
> 
> Because you my man, came hard wired with a familial protection module. It's seamlessly meshed into your identity. Can't remove it. Can't disable it. Therefore you are psychologically incapable of using fear in a calculated manner, to achieve your goals.
> 
> That doesn't mean you're incapable of leaving. It means you're incapable of using the prospect of leaving as a lever. A weapon.
> 
> You really ought make a decision. A real decision. Decide to either lead your marriage into the land of milk and honey. Or acknowledge you lack the strength to do so and end it as amicably as possible.
> 
> And start recording every single conversation. Not so you can create leverage. But so you can try to understand why you have a thriving business based on a whole bunch of customers who like, respect and trust you. And yet a wife who largely doesn't.


I think I have made a decision. I have decided to lead the marriage 'into the land of milk and honey'. It may turn out that I don't have the strength. 

I am trying to be positive and ensure that I am being a good husband. When she is snarky, I am asking her questions like you guys say, trying to find out why she is unhappy. I think it kind of pisses her off. I think she is almost wanting me to get angry.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> He sticks around because he loves her.
> 
> And right now the pain of leaving his love is greater than the pain of enduring her contempt.
> 
> Sometimes MEM... you over think things my friend


This is largely true. 

But I also want to find solutions. I still believe the marriage can be good more often than it is.


----------



## Marduk

john117 said:


> Not money.
> 
> Having nobody to paw at her (from her point of view). Peace of mind.


If he brings her to the place we've been pointing at, she will have to choose. 

Because choosing not to choose is killing their marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I think I have made a decision. I have decided to lead the marriage 'into the land of milk and honey'. It may turn out that I don't have the strength.
> 
> I am trying to be positive and ensure that I am being a good husband. When she is snarky, I am asking her questions like you guys say, trying to find out why she is unhappy. I think it kind of pisses her off. I think she is almost wanting me to get angry.


It's like yoda says. If you get angry, you're controllable. 

So don't.

At least until you're aware enough to use your anger consciously. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> My wife is the cold and cruel one. So is her sister. Their brother is the weak one. None of them are happy either.


Stop labelling her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> What I would do:
> 
> First, disrupt the control dynamic. Just say no, just be out more, just be more decisive, and if you want sex try just throwing her over your shoulder and carry her upstairs and see what happens. Never be whiny though. Laugh openly when she does something silly.
> 
> This will freak her out.
> 
> So, secondly, you reassure her simultaneously. You keep trying to have sex with her and be romantic with her. You tell her why you're with her. You engage her and ffs spend quality time with her.
> 
> There is tension between these two of course, so find your way.
> 
> She will respond by either opening up, or running away.
> 
> And that will tell you where her feelings are really at.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is what I am trying to do. The carrying to the bedroom might happen this weekend. 

She has been snarky a bit and I have not reacted. Other than with humor or a question or nothing. And then I go on being happy and helping as if it didn't happen. 

I have been spending time working out and doing odd jobs rather than just sitting on the couch. Swept out the garage, organize things in it, did the income tax and working out a bunch. I am starting to run out of things to do. 

Yesterday I booked us at a Dinner Theatre for Brunch on Valentines Day. When I told her she responded with, "That will be great. That was very thoughtful of you."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> Stop labelling her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, better to label the behavior only so you can identify it, isolate it, target it with a pattern interrupt of your choosing FOR the marriage, and still be able to support her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> This is largely true.
> 
> But I also want to find solutions. I still believe the marriage can be good more often than it is.


I am very happy to hear that!


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> This is what I am trying to do. The carrying to the bedroom might happen this weekend.
> 
> She has been snarky a bit and I have not reacted. Other than with humor or a question or nothing. And then I go on being happy and helping as if it didn't happen.
> 
> I have been spending time working out and doing odd jobs rather than just sitting on the couch. Swept out the garage, organize things in it, did the income tax and working out a bunch. I am starting to run out of things to do.
> 
> Yesterday I booked us at a Dinner Theatre for Brunch on Valentines Day. When I told her she responded with, "That will be great. That was very thoughtful of you."


There is hope. 

Be assertive without being domineering. The difference between decisiveness and being controlling is flexibility. 

Take what you want, but hear a no.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Blossom Leigh said:


> I think she is so wrapped up in preconceived expectations that she doesn't see how badly she is missing out on HIS way.
> 
> Sad.


I wonder about that at home too. It's simple optimization. But just in case....

Sam, does your wife's mind feel like its running a virus at times? Like, one of those PC viruses that consume 90% of the CPU? Is she focused 90% on a single thing? Is life one step away from Chernobyl?

If so, you have deeper problems.


----------



## john117

SadSamIAm said:


> I think I have made a decision. I have decided to lead the marriage 'into the land of milk and honey'. It may turn out that I don't have the strength.
> 
> I am trying to be positive and ensure that I am being a good husband. When she is snarky, I am asking her questions like you guys say, trying to find out why she is unhappy. I think it kind of pisses her off. I think she is almost wanting me to get angry.


What you will find out most likely is that she will not admit to being unhappy.


----------



## Acoa

marduk said:


> I mentioned BPD to our MC when I was in with her on my own.
> 
> And the MC said that almost anybody can display BPD traits when under stress or anxiety at high enough levels.
> 
> Without being BPD. But you treat it kinda he same, only its not chronic or something you get hung up on.
> 
> So I think the book you indicated would be a good idea, and also learning about it, without labelling her. That helped me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And if it is BPD, it's important not to label. A BPD will abhor being labeled. Just trying is a sure fire way to shut down any chance an counseling.


----------



## Marduk

Acoa said:


> And if it is BPD, it's important not to label. A BPD will abhor being labeled. Just trying is a sure fire way to shut down any chance an counseling.


Exact same response if she's not BPD. I would sure hate being labelled with that if its not true. 

Which makes labelling harmful either way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Acoa said:


> And if it is BPD, it's important not to label. A BPD will abhor being labeled. Just trying is a sure fire way to shut down any chance an counseling.


Label or no label, BPD is nearly untreatable and usually not covered by insurance. If one has confirmed BPD, labels are the least of their partners problem.


----------



## SadSamIAm

john117 said:


> What you will find out most likely is that she will not admit to being unhappy.


What I am hoping is that:

1) If I react properly to her being snarky at me, then it won't happen as often. 
- I have found that not reacting at all has worked. In the past, I would be doing something with her and she would make some nasty remark. I would stand up for myself and it would cause a fight or I would leave and let her do it. Now I don't say anything and continue to help. Pretend it didn't happen. Issue seems to just go away. I think part of the reason she did it was to get a reaction out of me. To show she is the one in power. 

2) If I am a better husband she will have less reason to be snarky at me
3) If we spend more quality time together she will be less unhappy
4) If I put less pressure on her for sex, she might want it more.
- Yesterday morning she was rubbing her neck. So I started rubbing her back and neck for her. We were talking and I could tell she was liking my touch. In the past I might escalate things to see how she reacts. Yesterday, I just said I had to get to work and got up and left. 
- This morning I reached over to give her a hug and she pushed my arm away and said, "What are you doing?" I just said, "Giving you a hug before I leave for work" and then I got up and showered and got dressed. Then went over and gave her a kiss on the forehead and said have a good day. She said "You too" and I could tell from her voice that she was feeling guilty about pushing me away. In the past I would have maybe tried to keep hugging her or would have gotten up and left without saying anything to her. Would have caused tension that would still be there when I got home. 

I don't think she will admit to being unhappy. I don't think she will need to.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> What I am hoping is that:
> 
> 1) If I react properly to her being snarky at me, then it won't happen as often.
> - I have found that not reacting at all has worked. In the past, I would be doing something with her and she would make some nasty remark. I would stand up for myself and it would cause a fight or I would leave and let her do it. Now I don't say anything and continue to help. Pretend it didn't happen. Issue seems to just go away. I think part of the reason she did it was to get a reaction out of me. To show she is the one in power.
> 
> 2) If I am a better husband she will have less reason to be snarky at me
> 3) If we spend more quality time together she will be less unhappy
> 4) If I put less pressure on her for sex, she might want it more.
> - Yesterday morning she was rubbing her neck. So I started rubbing her back and neck for her. We were talking and I could tell she was liking my touch. In the past I might escalate things to see how she reacts. Yesterday, I just said I had to get to work and got up and left.
> - This morning I reached over to give her a hug and she pushed my arm away and said, "What are you doing?" I just said, "Giving you a hug before I leave for work" and then I got up and showered and got dressed. Then went over and gave her a kiss on the forehead and said have a good day. She said "You too" and I could tell from her voice that she was feeling guilty about pushing me away. In the past I would have maybe tried to keep hugging her or would have gotten up and left without saying anything to her. Would have caused tension that would still be there when I got home.
> 
> I don't think she will admit to being unhappy. I don't think she will need to.


You are opening up space for her to come to you... and the massage then stopping right when she loves it is perfect.... I bet you will see her come to you in two weeks or less IF its fixable. Brilliant!


----------



## SadSamIAm

john117 said:


> I wonder about that at home too. It's simple optimization. But just in case....
> 
> Sam, does your wife's mind feel like its running a virus at times? Like, one of those PC viruses that consume 90% of the CPU? Is she focused 90% on a single thing? Is life one step away from Chernobyl?
> 
> If so, you have deeper problems.


This can happen when she is stressed. She gets stressed when a bunch of people are coming over. She gets stressed when preparing to go somewhere.

Often makes me wonder what life would be like if she had a career and had stress from it as well. It wouldn't be good.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> This can happen when she is stressed. She gets stressed when a bunch of people are coming over. She gets stressed when preparing to go somewhere.
> 
> Often makes me wonder what life would be like if she had a career and had stress from it as well. It wouldn't be good.


Sensory overload.

Happens to me too. 

This past weekend I had people in my house helping me with a project. It was emotional for me. My H took me down the hall, held my face in his hands and soothed me. 

Times like these are when my H will choose to pick things that lift burdens from me.

I think it is linked to the ACOA thing. Chaotic environment issue.


----------



## john117

You're trying to decipher a whole bunch of behaviors there all at once. Try focusing on fewer and simpler issues.

Now about sex, well, if you don't push she will initiate more, you indicated. At her schedule (or SLA) likely. So you will have the dubious honor of finding what her SLA is. The catch is not that. The catch is to get from SLA = X to SLA = X/2. 

She may have some moments of clarity like the hug you described, but the catch is to slowly introduce her to "touch as part of everyday life". If she's touch averse then as I indicated you have far bigger fish to fry.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sensory overload.
> 
> Happens to me too.
> 
> This past weekend I had people in my house helping me with a project. It was emotional for me. My H took me down the hall, held my face in his hands and soothed me.
> 
> Times like these are when my H will choose to pick things that lift burdens from me.
> 
> I think it is linked to the ACOA thing. Chaotic environment issue.


I agree. It is much better if I pitch in with vacuuming, cleaning, etc. Showing support and trying to reduce the stress.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> What I am hoping is that:
> 
> 1) If I react properly to her being snarky at me, then it won't happen as often.
> - I have found that not reacting at all has worked. In the past, I would be doing something with her and she would make some nasty remark. I would stand up for myself and it would cause a fight or I would leave and let her do it. Now I don't say anything and continue to help. Pretend it didn't happen. Issue seems to just go away. I think part of the reason she did it was to get a reaction out of me. To show she is the one in power.
> 
> 2) If I am a better husband she will have less reason to be snarky at me
> 3) If we spend more quality time together she will be less unhappy
> 4) If I put less pressure on her for sex, she might want it more.
> - Yesterday morning she was rubbing her neck. So I started rubbing her back and neck for her. We were talking and I could tell she was liking my touch. In the past I might escalate things to see how she reacts. Yesterday, I just said I had to get to work and got up and left.
> - This morning I reached over to give her a hug and she pushed my arm away and said, "What are you doing?" I just said, "Giving you a hug before I leave for work" and then I got up and showered and got dressed. Then went over and gave her a kiss on the forehead and said have a good day. She said "You too" and I could tell from her voice that she was feeling guilty about pushing me away. In the past I would have maybe tried to keep hugging her or would have gotten up and left without saying anything to her. Would have caused tension that would still be there when I got home.
> 
> I don't think she will admit to being unhappy. I don't think she will need to.


No, no, no, NO!

You make changes for you. Nobody else. Don't seek her validation, approval, or measure your success based on her response. 

You do it for you. Because you will be a better man. 

If she comes along, she gets a better man. If she doesn't, then you'll still be a better man. 

Your actions are fine, but your intentions are not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

john117 said:


> You're trying to decipher a whole bunch of behaviors there all at once. Try focusing on fewer and simpler issues.
> 
> Now about sex, well, if you don't push she will initiate more, you indicated. At her schedule (or SLA) likely. So you will have the dubious honor of finding what her SLA is. The catch is not that. The catch is to get from SLA = X to SLA = X/2.
> 
> She may have some moments of clarity like the hug you described, but the catch is to slowly introduce her to "touch as part of everyday life". If she's touch averse then as I indicated you have far bigger fish to fry.


I know she will never be comfortable with 'touch as a part of everyday life'. That isn't my goal.

My goal isn't about sex anymore either. My goal is to be a better husband, don't take the negative things she says and does personally. And to get into better shape and look after myself. 

I know I will be the one initiating sex 98% of the time. But I am not going to initiate near as often. When I get rejected, I am not going to get upset and cause a fight.

We were having sex a couple of times a month. We were fighting constantly between those times. My goal is to reduce/eliminate the fighting. We might end up having sex more often because of that. That isn't my goal but it would certainly make me happier.:wink2:


----------



## Openminded

SadSamIAm said:


> Your story resonates with me. My wife grew up in a home with an alcoholic father and a weak mother. Lots of conflict and verbal abuse. Not as bad as your wife, but I it has affected her more than I realized.
> 
> When she dumps her anger on me, for years I mostly withdrew. After a short period of time, we would make up. Sex was great. That has probably gone on for the last 20 years. Five good years with very little conflict. Then 20 years of what you describe above.
> 
> As time went on, the amount of time between the anger and the makeup has gotten longer. The great sex, less frequent. Instead of withdrawing, I have been fighting back some which has caused longer and deeper arguments.
> 
> Maybe this is where I went wrong. It got so bad that I was ready to abandon her (at least I thought I was). I think that hurt her more than I realize. She thought I would be her punching bag forever. She probably figures she wasn't that bad, since I put up with it for 20 years.


When women get away for decades with that type of behavior, they start feeling entitled to act that way. They justify it in their mind as "you made me do that -- it's all your fault for not (doing whatever)". And there is tremendous resistance to change because it's entrenched. That is the dynamic in the marriage and seems normal to the person doing it. 

It won't be easy turning that around but it certainly can be done -- but only if she works with you. Obviously, you can't do it alone.


----------



## MEM2020

That's leading. 



SadSamIAm said:


> What I am hoping is that:
> 
> 1) If I react properly to her being snarky at me, then it won't happen as often.
> - I have found that not reacting at all has worked. In the past, I would be doing something with her and she would make some nasty remark. I would stand up for myself and it would cause a fight or I would leave and let her do it. Now I don't say anything and continue to help. Pretend it didn't happen. Issue seems to just go away. I think part of the reason she did it was to get a reaction out of me. To show she is the one in power.
> 
> 2) If I am a better husband she will have less reason to be snarky at me
> 3) If we spend more quality time together she will be less unhappy
> 4) If I put less pressure on her for sex, she might want it more.
> - Yesterday morning she was rubbing her neck. So I started rubbing her back and neck for her. We were talking and I could tell she was liking my touch. In the past I might escalate things to see how she reacts. Yesterday, I just said I had to get to work and got up and left.
> - This morning I reached over to give her a hug and she pushed my arm away and said, "What are you doing?" I just said, "Giving you a hug before I leave for work" and then I got up and showered and got dressed. Then went over and gave her a kiss on the forehead and said have a good day. She said "You too" and I could tell from her voice that she was feeling guilty about pushing me away. In the past I would have maybe tried to keep hugging her or would have gotten up and left without saying anything to her. Would have caused tension that would still be there when I got home.
> 
> I don't think she will admit to being unhappy. I don't think she will need to.


----------



## MEM2020

This observation explains an awful lot. 

Her baseline anxiety level is WAY higher than yours. The bit about people coming over isn't the give away. That's a fairly common female - theme. But her angst about going out. That is a real indicator. 

As to the core reason she snarks you. I agree. It's to feel 'less weak'. That said, it isn't random. It only SEEMS random to you because you don't know why. 

And the way you are handling touch - is excellent. 

Humor a short observation about touch. In a LTR touch has two very different components. The raw physiology, and the underlying intent. It's not that hard to get good at non sexual touch that is pleasant / soothing to your partner. 

Thing is, over time patterns emerge. Is the touch a give, or the beginning of an ask. 

Touch as a 'give', to an anxious person, is like water to a thirsty person. They crave it. Crave it. Touch - perceived as an ask - creates a very different response. 





SadSamIAm said:


> This can happen when she is stressed. She gets stressed when a bunch of people are coming over. She gets stressed when preparing to go somewhere.
> 
> Often makes me wonder what life would be like if she had a career and had stress from it as well. It wouldn't be good.


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> That's leading.


You can lead a ---------- to ----------- but you can't make them -----------.

Leadership is good if you have the upper hand. Otherwise it's not all that useful if the person "being led" has one of many issues that could detail the process.


----------



## john117

There's a huge difference between an anxious person and an averse person.

A wife that jumps and withdraws as predictably as a Cubs loss is not anxious. 

Sam is well beyond DIY solutions and in my assessment not too close to professional solutions either. He may make some improvements to a 95%-5% relationship, maybe 80%-20%, but that's all she wrote. 

Baby steps are good but we don't walk with baby steps forever.


----------



## Marduk

MEM11363 said:


> That's leading.


There's two basic modes of leadership:

Servant leadership: by leading, you serve the people you lead.

And an impositional leader, who essentially seeks leadership as it's own reward by making other people do what you want them to do.



> The servant-leader is servant first… It begins with the natural feeling that one wants to serve, to serve first. Then conscious choice brings one to aspire to lead. That person is sharply different from one who is leader first, perhaps because of the need to assuage an unusual power drive or to acquire material possessions…The leader-first and the servant-first are two extreme types. Between them there are shadings and blends that are part of the infinite variety of human nature.


It is always a blend. However I've found that visionaries, pioneers, and rebels (think Steve Jobs, Obama, Malcom X, and John Lennon) seek to find ways that their vision serves people as a rallying cause, while impositional leaders who just aspire to power for it's own sake (think Reagan, Cheney, Paul Stanley, Trump and Thatcher) will find triggers that _look_ like they serve the people, but don't -- they're just looking for buttons to push to get power.

The interesting thing is that the visionaries don't really judge themselves by their popularity, they judge themselves by the achievement of their goals -- it's about the imposition of their will upon the world _because they believe that makes the world a better place._ Steve Job's famous line "Everything in the world was made up by people no smarter than you" is a great example of this.

Which is entirely different than Thatcher saying "Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't." And Trump in a recent interview said that he wants to become President, because then he wins.

All that to say that your _intention as a leader matters as much as your vision as a leader._ It shows in everything you do.

Good leaders have what I call a "North Star." A guiding principle that can be summed up in a simple sentence. If your North Star for your marriage is what your wife is going to do, that's going to be a fail. If your North Star is how your marriage is going to be -- that's having a vision.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> You can lead a ---------- to ----------- but you can't make them -----------.
> 
> Leadership is good if you have the upper hand. Otherwise it's not all that useful if the person "being led" has one of many issues that could detail the process.


That is how the leader can grow, too, John. He can learn to work through problems, and see his own hand in the mess. 

You don't learn much by having the other person obey you out of fear of your "upper hand."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Ah, the ever popular assumption of contributory negligence  or joint liability. It's his fault for not living in a resort 11 of 12 months in the year.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

Yes to this. And equally important - John has utterly lost the thread with regard to motivations. 

I still remember the day I was sitting in an IC session - the day the lights came on. Our MC says to me: M2 isn't doing this TO you, she's doing it FOR herself. She's trying to feel LESS BAD. 

Anxiety -> anger -> agression






jld said:


> That is how the leader can grow, too, John. He can learn to work through problems, and see his own hand in the mess.
> 
> You don't learn much by having the other person obey you out of fear of your "upper hand."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Ah, the ever popular assumption of contributory negligence  or joint liability. It's his fault for not living in a resort 11 of 12 months in the year.


John, can you ever just take responsibility, all on your own?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> That is how the leader can grow, too, John. He can learn to work through problems, and see his own hand in the mess.
> 
> You don't learn much by having the other person obey you out of fear of your "upper hand."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes and no. 

Good leaders understand that you get what you tolerate, and corrective actions are sometimes required. 

Corrective actions require a combination of inspiration and consequence. 

Consequence usually involves the fear of loss.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> Good leaders understand that you get what you tolerate, and corrective actions are sometimes required.
> 
> Corrective actions require a combination of inspiration and consequence.
> 
> Consequence usually involves the fear of loss.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep, this is what a LOT of people miss... it is the balance between the two AND the tension between the two.


----------



## MEM2020

Contrasted with the ego protecting sheath of certainty conferred by a Ph.D. 

 




john117 said:


> Ah, the ever popular assumption of contributory negligence  or joint liability. It's his fault for not living in a resort 11 of 12 months in the year.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> Good leaders understand that you get what you tolerate, and corrective actions are sometimes required.
> 
> Corrective actions require a combination of inspiration and consequence.
> 
> Consequence usually involves the fear of loss.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think threatening a wife with loss is the way to go. I also think the whole "what you tolerate" idea is overplayed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> John, can you ever just take responsibility, all on your own?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's being a realist. It's why keep liking his posts. 

Sam could STILL be facing having to assess if salvaging this is viable. Part of the issue with ACOA's is their chronic emotional unavailability. Its one reason I hope at some point when they have gotten to a better spot that she will be open to considering therapy to lessen her severity and become more balanced. So that she becomes more emotionally available not only mainly for herself, but also for him and the kids.


----------



## jld

Sam could certainly quit. But I don't think he is at that point.

To me, the options are quit or be the leader.

Blossom, I think your leading your reconciliation is different than Sam's leading his.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Yes

But that consequence cannot come from anger. 

Scenario 1: 
Middle of a blowout fight, in a fury: I'm not going to tolerate any more of this. 

Scenario 2:
Dead calm. Completely sincere: You seem unhappy - not just overall - but with us. If I knew what to do to help you, I'd do it. If this really isn't working for you, tell me. 





marduk said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> Good leaders understand that you get what you tolerate, and corrective actions are sometimes required.
> 
> Corrective actions require a combination of inspiration and consequence.
> 
> Consequence usually involves the fear of loss.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Yes

Sam,
How good are you at reading S2's non verbal communication?

How good at face talking? It's often possible to soothe more with 3-5 seconds of face talking - than with an open ended amount of talking. 





jld said:


> Sam could certainly quit. But I don't think he is at that point.
> 
> To me, the options are quit or be the leader.
> 
> Blossom, I think your leading your reconciliation is different than Sam's leading his.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Sam could certainly quit. But I don't think he is at that point.
> 
> To me, the options are quit or be the leader.
> 
> Blossom, I think your leading your reconciliation is different than Sam's leading his.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There comes a time when every leader must decide if their decision to remain engaged is founded in folly or wisdom.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Yes
> 
> But that consequence cannot come from anger.
> 
> Scenario 1:
> Middle of a blowout fight, in a fury: I'm not going to tolerate any more of this.
> 
> Scenario 2:
> Dead calm. Completely sincere: You seem unhappy - not just overall - but with us. If I knew what to do to help you, I'd do it. If this really isn't working for you, tell me.


Do you do consequences, MEM?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Yes
> 
> Sam,
> How good are you at reading S2's non verbal communication?
> 
> How good at face talking? It's often possible to soothe more with 3-5 seconds of face talking - than with an open ended amount of talking.


Face talking?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yep, this is what a LOT of people miss... it is the balance between the two AND the tension between the two.


Have you ever been in the room with a truly great leader?

The script usually goes:
I have a vision that I can simply and eloquently articulate. Here's why it's great. 

Next, here's why not doing it sucks. This could be implied or obvious in the above statement, or a cheap shot at a competing vision, or directly stated. 

Next comes a statement that sounds like "I/we are going this way. You can join us, or not."

There's always painting of a vision and forcing a decision on their terms.

For example, with Jobs, the giant thing was FOMO. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> There comes a time when every leader must decide if their decision to remain engaged is founded in folly or wisdom.


Part of that is looking first at the needs of the follower. They have to be given preference.

Blossom, I think it is different when the leader is the woman. I don't think you take that into consideration.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Have you ever been in the room with a truly great leader?
> 
> The script usually goes:
> I have a vision that I can simply and eloquently articulate. Here's why it's great.
> 
> Next, here's why not doing it sucks. This could be implied or obvious in the above statement, or a cheap shot at a competing vision, or directly stated.
> 
> Next comes a statement that sounds like "I/we are going this way. You can join us, or not."
> 
> There's always painting of a vision and forcing a decision on their terms.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe between men. But in a hetero marriage, this sounds risky, and alienating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

marduk said:


> It is always a blend. However I've found that visionaries, pioneers, and rebels (think Steve Jobs, Obama, Malcom X, and John Lennon) seek to find ways that their vision serves people as a rallying cause, while impositional leaders who just aspire to power for it's own sake (think Reagan, Cheney, Paul Stanley, Trump and Thatcher) will find triggers that _look_ like they serve the people, but don't -- they're just looking for buttons to push to get power.


Seriously?

Let me stop now lest this devolves into a thread jack of epic proportions.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Part of that is looking first at the needs of the follower. They have to be given preference.
> 
> Blossom, I think it is different when the leader is the woman. I don't think you take that into consideration.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I always consider the needs.

You and I just view needs differently and how to approach them.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Let me stop now lest this devolves into a thread jack of epic proportions.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I agree. Yall lets not over run Sam's thread.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Let me stop now lest this devolves into a thread jack of epic proportions.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Actually, that was something Marduk and I agree on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I always consider the needs.
> 
> You and I just view needs differently and how to approach them.


Respectfully, I think our main difference is that you expect women to be leaders and I expect men to be leaders.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Respectfully, I think our main difference is that you expect women to be leaders and I expect men to be leaders.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


100% disagree


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I don't think threatening a wife with loss is the way to go. I also think the whole "what you tolerate" idea is overplayed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You say that from the perspective that you're the only one that can impose consequences, but would never actually do so. 

Dug tolerates all, and that's what you're comfortable with, and that's what you're responding to in my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Yes

But only when all else has failed. And only in a manner that to an outsider would seem - very soft. 

But everything's relative. If someone is accustomed to a 90 degree temperature, and I walk over set the thermostat to 50 - and then sleep in the guest room for a few days - that produces a reaction. I don't use words like separation or divorce. 

And I try to avoid global statements. Though I do sometimes fail. Usually I try to stick with 
- I'm not going to debate WHAT happened
- If you want to talk about WHY, that would be ok. Or not, if you don't want to 
- If you continue asserting that the mid day sky is bright pink, I won't try to stop you. I'll be as patient as need be. 

That last bit is kind of a hybrid. I'm not leaving. And I'm also not taking up residence, or even temporarily visiting - crazy town. 

That term isn't intended to be disrespectful. It's an objective view of behavior. The mid day sky isn't Pink. And M2 has no issues with color perception. 

Meaning - she knows what she did. Knows that I know it. It's what communications majors call 'common knowledge'. She's attempting to persuade me that she didn't do it - not because she didn't - but because she's sort of jammed herself into a corner. 

The corner she's jammed into is identical to that which Marduk has described with his M2. It looks like this:

1. If I did something hateful to you
2. It's because I was angry/maybe even furious at you
3. Therefore you deserved it
4. The fact that I can't (or won't) explain the source of my fury is irrelevant. My feelings are valid, whatever they happen to be. 

I believe it is very rare that M2 doesn't know WHY she feels fury. Much more common that she feels it, considers the underlying trigger to be embarrassing or shameful. And therefore desperately try's to change the subject. Her first move is: 
- It didn't happen (That tactic was fairly effective early in our marriage. It was like throwing a wrench into my poor little aspie-lite brain). 
- Even if it did happen, you over reacted. 

All that said - the way these end - she's hysterically crying and begging me not to leave her (deep sigh - I wasn't going anywhere). And even then - I don't force an explanation. Because it's likely something equally simple and sad. Jealousy. I feel sorry for her. It must svck to live with that. 

And I'm not 'playing dumb'. I know that the lite 180 eventually triggers her abandonment phobia. I have never found an alternate, less painful (for M2) path to resolution in these situations. 

The one option available - isn't acceptable to me. Which is to pretend the sky is pink. An aspie-lite is incapable of saying 2+2=5






jld said:


> Do you do consequences, MEM?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> You say that from the perspective that you're the only one that can impose consequences, but would never actually do so.
> 
> Dug tolerates all, and that's what you're comfortable with, and that's what you're responding to in my opinion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He does not let me get to him. He does not see me as powerful, anyway.

He already has a lot of power in the relationship. Imposing consequences on top of that would be too much, and he knows it.

You think I am so powerful, but I am no threat at all to Dug.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

MEM, I think that 180 idea is risky.

Are you sure she is always wrong? Are you sometimes wrong, too?

Does she feel safe telling you how you are wrong? Will you listen?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Face talking: The intentional or unintentional conveyance of information via facial expression. 

Could be a simple emotion. Or a compound one. 

My personal favorite is: I love you with a light overlay of concern. 
Followed closely by: I'm confused

Face talking allows a type of extreme non verbal transparency. 

The flip side - face reading - while incredibly useful - has to be used with care. It can feel invasive and very incomfortable if someone starts reading your mind when you don't want them to. 




jld said:


> Face talking?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

jld said:


> John, can you ever just take responsibility, all on your own?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If it's something only dependent on me, yea. Every time. If it takes two people, its simple physics. I'm not the whole team... I can take the blame for MY part but not the OTHER part or the WHOLE.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Face talking: The intentional or unintentional conveyance of information via facial expression.
> 
> Could be a simple emotion. Or a compound one.
> 
> My personal favorite is: I love you with a light overlay of concern.
> Followed closely by: I'm confused
> 
> Face talking allows a type of extreme non verbal transparency.
> 
> The flip side - face reading - while incredibly useful - has to be used with care. It can feel invasive and very incomfortable if someone starts reading your mind when you don't want them to.


Thank you for explaining, MEM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> If it's something only dependent on me, yea. Every time. If it takes two people, its simple physics. I'm not the whole team... I can take the blame for MY part but not the OTHER part or the WHOLE.


I think that may be holding your marriage back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> Yes to this. And equally important - John has utterly lost the thread with regard to motivations.
> 
> I still remember the day I was sitting in an IC session - the day the lights came on. Our MC says to me: M2 isn't doing this TO you, she's doing it FOR herself. She's trying to feel LESS BAD.
> 
> Anxiety -> anger -> agression


Motivation is irrelevant. S2 is most definitely NOT doing this on purpose, but at the end of the day it's all "what have you done for me lately".

She chooses to feel bad. Its comforting to her. Do you think North Korea would act normal if they were the only people on earth? It's the mental virus I spoke of that consumes her mental throughput. Or, what clinicians call " pathology".

Y'all are treading in uncharted waters I'm afraid. I'm happy that you never had to sail thru the darkness of the human mind but you're using normal stereotypes in non normal situations.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

No one in the Fam doubts M2's linguistic ability 
She'll kick your azz when it comes to verbal agility

When she has a case - she makes it. It's easy for me to apologize. 
She ONLY gaslights when the underlying issue is embarrassing to her. Otherwise her normal MO is to say: I was angry because you did XYZ. Those conversations are easy. 

The conversations that she seems unable to have - are about jealousy. Because in her head - she knows that no one else is even a close second in terms of my affections. But in her heart -she feels threatened way to easily. 





jld said:


> MEM, I think that 180 idea is risky.
> 
> Are you sure she is always wrong? Are you sometimes wrong, too?
> 
> Does she feel safe telling you how you are wrong? Will you listen?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Motivation is irrelevant. S2 is most definitely NOT doing this on purpose, but at the end of the day it's all "what have you done for me lately".
> 
> She chooses to feel bad. Its comforting to her. Do you think North Korea would act normal if they were the only people on earth? It's the mental virus I spoke of that consumes her mental throughput. Or, what clinicians call " pathology".
> 
> Y'all are treading in uncharted waters I'm afraid. I'm happy that you never had to sail thru the darkness of the human mind but you're using normal stereotypes in non normal situations.


She is not choosing it. She genuinely feels bad.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Let me stop now lest this devolves into a thread jack of epic proportions.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Not really brother. 

You are the leader in your marriage. That's what we're asking Sam to be, and what he wants to be. 

Every leader starts with two questions: why do I want to lead, and what kind of leader am I going to be?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

john117 said:


> Motivation is irrelevant. S2 is most definitely NOT doing this on purpose, but at the end of the day it's all "what have you done for me lately".
> 
> She chooses to feel bad. Its comforting to her. Do you think North Korea would act normal if they were the only people on earth? It's the mental virus I spoke of that consumes her mental throughput. Or, what clinicians call " pathology".
> 
> Y'all are treading in uncharted waters I'm afraid. I'm happy that you never had to sail thru the darkness of the human mind but you're using normal stereotypes in non normal situations.


Totally disagree. 

I see nothing pathological in Sam's wife's behaviour.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

John,
At a micro level. At a transactional level, no one is more certain than you that they are right in every single situation. 

And yet at a macro level - your plan is to go inter species with a Maine **** cat or two. Don't get me wrong - as a fellow cat lover - I applaud the cat part of your plan. 

But for a guy who is so certain he's on the right side of every encounter, good or bad, it's odd that you lack confidence that you will find a human mate after J2. 





john117 said:


> If it's something only dependent on me, yea. Every time. If it takes two people, its simple physics. I'm not the whole team... I can take the blame for MY part but not the OTHER part or the WHOLE.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> No one in the Fam doubts M2's linguistic ability
> She'll kick your azz when it comes to verbal agility
> 
> When she has a case - she makes it. It's easy for me to apologize.
> She ONLY gaslights when the underlying issue is embarrassing to her. Otherwise her normal MO is to say: I was angry because you did XYZ. Those conversations are easy.
> 
> The conversations that she seems unable to have - are about jealousy. Because in her head - she knows that no one else is even a close second in terms of my affections. *But in her heart -she feels threatened way to easily*.


I think digging into that with her would be very profitable.

I think men get intimidated by women's verbal ability. But I think if women feel safe sharing their whole heart with you, they will. Jmo.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Not really brother.
> 
> You are the leader in your marriage. That's what we're asking Sam to be, and what he wants to be.
> 
> Every leader starts with two questions: why do I want to lead, and what kind of leader am I going to be?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you sure it is not: What is needed? How can I provide it?


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Are you sure it is not: What is needed?


That's why I want to be a leader.


> How can I provide it?


That's what kind of leader I want to be.

Oddly, I think you and I are saying the same things.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> That's why I want to be a leader.
> 
> That's what kind of leader I want to be.
> 
> Oddly, I think you and I are saying the same things.


I don't think so. I think yours is a more self-interested approach. And you ultimately rely on control techniques rather than commitment and inspiration.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
I'll try and explain this in a way that you may or may not get. 

This is thank God - infrequent behavior - but it DOES trigger a 180. 

Have you ever watched a cat hunt? They're patient and silent. Then it's a blitz. Totally different than dogs who escalate and escalate and then and only then - bite. 

So imagine your go to sleep in a completely happy state. Your partner starts thinking about stuff - and wakes you up to a blast of pure 'I hate you' tone and body language. 

I won't speak for the rest of my brothers. All I can say is that such events are emotionally draining. And then - the follow up play: I have no idea what you're talking about. 

Really means: There's no way to justify what I did. So let's both pretend I didn't do it. 

I think you're missing something here. I actually have a nervous system. I feel pain. Cut me and I bleed. 

If I were sadistic I'd LEAVE HER IN THE ICE BATH FOR A WHILE AFTER SHE RETURNED TO HER SENSES AND STARTED BEGGING FORGIVENESS. I don't do that. 

I didn't make her jealous. And honestly, it's more than a little tiring that she is that way. I accept it, but do NOT like it. 

And when you pair jealousy with a 'I don't get angry I get even' mindset, the result is a cat style of strike. 

She decides how long the freakin ice bath is. Not me. 





jld said:


> MEM, I think that 180 idea is risky.
> 
> Are you sure she is always wrong? Are you sometimes wrong, too?
> 
> Does she feel safe telling you how you are wrong? Will you listen?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> I'll try and explain this in a way that you may or may not get.
> 
> This is thank God - infrequent behavior - but it DOES trigger a 180.
> 
> Have you ever watched a cat hunt? They're patient and silent. Then it's a blitz. Totally different than dogs who escalate and escalate and then and only then - bite.
> 
> So imagine your go to sleep in a completely happy state. Your partner starts thinking about stuff - and wakes you up to a blast of pure 'I hate you' tone and body language.
> 
> I won't speak for the rest of my brothers. All I can say is that such events are emotionally draining. And then - the follow up play: I have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> Really means: There's no way to justify what I did. So let's both pretend I didn't do it.
> 
> I think you're missing something here. I actually have a nervous system. I feel pain. Cut me and I bleed.
> 
> If I were sadistic I'd LEAVE HER IN THE ICE BATH FOR A WHILE AFTER SHE RETURNED TO HER SENSES AND STARTED BEGGING FORGIVENESS. I don't do that.
> 
> I didn't make her jealous. And honestly, it's more than a little tiring that she is that way. I accept it, but do NOT like it.
> 
> And when you pair jealousy with a 'I don't get angry I get even' mindset, the result is a cat style of strike.
> 
> She decides how long the freakin ice bath is. Not me.


MEM. You seem defensive.

Let's talk later.


----------



## SadSamIAm

MEM11363 said:


> Yes
> 
> But that consequence cannot come from anger.
> 
> Scenario 1:
> Middle of a blowout fight, in a fury: I'm not going to tolerate any more of this.
> 
> Scenario 2:
> Dead calm. Completely sincere: You seem unhappy - not just overall - but with us. If I knew what to do to help you, I'd do it. If this really isn't working for you, tell me.


I am switching to Scenario 2. It doesn't come naturally to me. I envision me trying scenario 2 and my wife just keep on pissing me off until I get to Scenario 1 again. Going to try not to let that happen.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I am switching to Scenario 2. It doesn't come naturally to me. I envision me trying scenario 2 and my wife just keep on pissing me off until I get to Scenario 1 again. Going to try not to let that happen.


Are you familiar with Active Listening?

It does require patience, and at a time when it is difficult to summon it.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Went home for lunch today. My son and daughter were both in the family room studying (mid terms at University).

My wife walks into the room and starts in on me. "What are you doing home? Thought you were sooooo busy! Thought you would go through drive thru like you always do."

My daughter immediately jumps on her. "Why do you talk to him like that? Why wouldn't you say, nice you came home for lunch? You are always so mean!"

Then I just said, "It was super busy today, part of the reason I came home was to just have a break for a bit. I'm trying to watch what I am eating, so not doing the drive thru anymore."

I didn't get angry and it diffused the argument between my daughter and wife. I made my lunch, ate it and then said "see you guys later" and went back to work.

When I return home I am going to pretend like nothing happened. Tell her about my day and ask if she needs help getting supper ready. If she gets snarky, I will stay calm and ask about what is troubling her. Do some 'active listening'. If she continues to be snarky, I will just tell her we can talk later if she wants to and then I will go workout.

What a life!!!


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I think that may be holding your marriage back.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It would be further behind if I spent more time on Mea Culpas. 

It's like I tell my team. Do what is expected of you. Don't wait till the last minute. If I'm wrong, tell me. If I'm stupid, show me. 

But don't expect sympathy if you don't do your part, keep us in the dark, and yet expect the rest of us to carry you. 

A few years ago we won a couple of important industry awards. Instead of putting them in my trophy wall or the department trophy wall I put them in the lab over the coffee maker and oven (the ones we bought with company funds as lab equipment  ) so that everyone in the lab would see them every day.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> She is not choosing it. She genuinely feels bad.


If left untreated it's a choice.


----------



## john117

marduk said:


> Totally disagree.
> 
> I see nothing pathological in Sam's wife's behaviour.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Someone upset all the time? Over trivialities? Someone who has everything and still has to act out like that?

Maybe not Bellevue material but definitely not playing with a full deck.


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> At a micro level. At a transactional level, no one is more certain than you that they are right in every single situation.
> 
> And yet at a macro level - your plan is to go inter species with a Maine **** cat or two. Don't get me wrong - as a fellow cat lover - I applaud the cat part of your plan.
> 
> But for a guy who is so certain he's on the right side of every encounter, good or bad, it's odd that you lack confidence that you will find a human mate after J2.


My confidence wanes when I consider the possibility that I will find someone of the **** sapiens species that is to my liking, not to find a partner at all.

After you have been thru the system once you know the odds. 

Sam could do the same and write down what he wants in a partner. If he's picky, he'll find fairly quickly that the pickings at our age are not quite as plentiful. If he's not picky and wants FWB's well that's another story.

Selecting a partner is one of those times where you have to be right.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> Went home for lunch today. My son and daughter were both in the family room studying (mid terms at University).
> 
> My wife walks into the room and starts in on me. "What are you doing home? Thought you were sooooo busy! Thought you would go through drive thru like you always do."
> 
> My daughter immediately jumps on her. "Why do you talk to him like that? Why wouldn't you say, nice you came home for lunch? You are always so mean!"
> 
> Then I just said, "It was super busy today, part of the reason I came home was to just have a break for a bit. I'm trying to watch what I am eating, so not doing the drive thru anymore."
> 
> I didn't get angry and it diffused the argument between my daughter and wife. I made my lunch, ate it and then said "see you guys later" and went back to work.
> 
> When I return home I am going to pretend like nothing happened. Tell her about my day and ask if she needs help getting supper ready. If she gets snarky, I will stay calm and ask about what is troubling her. Do some 'active listening'. If she continues to be snarky, I will just tell her we can talk later if she wants to and then I will go workout.
> 
> What a life!!!


Proud of your daughter. My three to six year old son was also jumping in to protect me. That's the tone that would send him running to stand in front of me protecting me from him.

Ohhhh, if there is one thing I loathe is that dripping sarcasm of deep contempt. 

My H no longer does that to me. I hit a breaking point and he almost lost me. It woke him up.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> MEM. You seem defensive.
> 
> Let's talk later.


Or is he showing that he is not inpenetrable, which seems to be your expectation?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

See how your wife reacts to your daughter's actions. Some wives respond well to that. Other wives would feel that if another woman has to defend you, you seem even weaker.

Generally when a woman defends a man, it is not a good sign. Think about what that means.

It is better to earn your own respect from your wife rather than have her policed into deferring to you. That deference may just end up being superficial.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Or is he showing that he is not inpenetrable, which seems to be your expectation?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


His words are defensive. Impenetrable because of wisdom would feel different.

Ultimately we are after wisdom here, far. That is what will help us grow.


----------



## Marduk

john117 said:


> Someone upset all the time? Over trivialities? Someone who has everything and still has to act out like that?
> 
> Maybe not Bellevue material but definitely not playing with a full deck.


You just described 99% of the women I've dated.

All you've said is that she's high maintenance, likely hot, and used to getting her way. Gravy.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> Went home for lunch today. My son and daughter were both in the family room studying (mid terms at University).
> 
> My wife walks into the room and starts in on me. "What are you doing home? Thought you were sooooo busy! Thought you would go through drive thru like you always do."
> 
> My daughter immediately jumps on her. "Why do you talk to him like that? Why wouldn't you say, nice you came home for lunch? You are always so mean!"
> 
> Then I just said, "It was super busy today, part of the reason I came home was to just have a break for a bit. I'm trying to watch what I am eating, so not doing the drive thru anymore."
> 
> I didn't get angry and it diffused the argument between my daughter and wife. I made my lunch, ate it and then said "see you guys later" and went back to work.
> 
> When I return home I am going to pretend like nothing happened. Tell her about my day and ask if she needs help getting supper ready. If she gets snarky, I will stay calm and ask about what is troubling her. Do some 'active listening'. If she continues to be snarky, I will just tell her we can talk later if she wants to and then I will go workout.
> 
> What a life!!!


**** test. 

You passed it. 

It will get worse, then easier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> My confidence wanes when I consider the possibility that I will find someone of the **** sapiens species that is to my liking, not to find a partner at all.
> 
> After you have been thru the system once you know the odds.
> 
> Sam could do the same and write down what he wants in a partner. If he's picky, he'll find fairly quickly that the pickings at our age are not quite as plentiful. If he's not picky and wants FWB's well that's another story.
> 
> Selecting a partner is one of those times where you have to be right.


I think you could find someone. There seem to be more older women available than older men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Proud of your daughter. My three to six year old son was also jumping in to protect me. That's the tone that would send him running to stand in front of me protecting me from him.
> 
> Ohhhh, if there is one thing I loathe is that dripping sarcasm of deep contempt.
> 
> My H no longer does that to me. I hit a breaking point and he almost lost me. It woke him up.


I have hit the breaking point a few times and she doesn't realize how close she is to losing me. I am hoping she wakes up.

Up until a week or so ago I would have been fighting back. I would have mentioned that the kitchen is a wreck (like it was) and that I had been busting my ass at work all day. While she spent the morning working out, then bought booze for the kids (that we have discussed and had decided we weren't going to do anymore) and was sitting on the couch.

Then when I got home I would have headed for the basement and watched sports by myself.

Tonight I will go home and play nice. Maybe her mood will be over. Maybe it will be worse. Wish me luck!


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> See how your wife reacts to your daughter's actions. Some wives respond well to that. Other wives would feel that if another woman has to defend you, you seem even weaker.
> 
> Generally when a woman defends a man, it is not a good sign. Think about what that means.
> 
> It is better to earn your own respect from your wife rather than have her policed into deferring to you. That deference may just end up being superficial.


Nobody had to defend me. I think I defended myself for explaining to her calmly without getting angry.

I didn't need my daughter defending me, but I think it helps in making my wife realize that she is in the wrong.

I believe I have earned my wife's respect with what I do for the family. If I stop getting angry, start calling her on her disrespect, get in better shape and lead, I will earn more respect. If she continues to be disrespectful to me, something is going to have to give.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> I have hit the breaking point a few times and she doesn't realize how close she is to losing me. I am hoping she wakes up.
> 
> Up until a week or so ago I would have been fighting back. I would have mentioned that the kitchen is a wreck (like it was) and that I had been busting my ass at work all day. While she spent the morning working out, then bought booze for the kids (that we have discussed and had decided we weren't going to do anymore) and was sitting on the couch.
> 
> Then when I got home I would have headed for the basement and watched sports by myself.
> 
> Tonight I will go home and play nice. Maybe her mood will be over. Maybe it will be worse. Wish me luck!


You've got my support to handle this one however your gut tells you to handle it.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> Nobody had to defend me. I think I defended myself for explaining to her calmly without getting angry.
> 
> I didn't need my daughter defending me, but I think it helps in making my wife realize that she is in the wrong.
> 
> I believe I have earned my wife's respect with what I do for the family. If I stop getting angry, start calling her on her disrespect, get in better shape and lead, I will earn more respect. If she continues to be disrespectful to me, something is going to have to give.


If your daughter's defending you is perceived positively by your wife, good enough. There may be women who would feel that way. 

To me, when a woman feels the need to defend a man, it is because she thinks he cannot do it himself. Does not make me think highly of the man.

The main thing you are worried about is the lack of sex, no?

To me, a woman should always want your touch, should want to be close to you. If she does not, there is something very wrong. I don't even know how women stay in relationships like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

jld said:


> I think you could find someone. There seem to be more older women available than older men.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Someone"... Let me caucus on this one


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> His words are defensive. Impenetrable because of wisdom would feel different.
> 
> Ultimately we are after wisdom here, far. That is what will help us grow.


There is also wisdom in understanding that perfection is never achieved, no matter how hard we strive for it.

It is really easy to be idealistic when you are not the one enduring what you are asking.


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

john117 said:


> "Someone"... Let me caucus on this one


You have many fine qualities. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> There is also wisdom in understanding that perfection is never achieved, no matter how hard we strive for it.
> 
> It is really easy to be idealistic when you are not the one enduring what you are asking.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Absolutely true, far. We all have our own limits. Sam is certainly free to file tomorrow if he wishes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

SadSamIAm said:


> I believe I have earned my wife's respect with what I do for the family. If I stop getting angry, start calling her on her disrespect, get in better shape and lead, I will earn more respect. If she continues to be disrespectful to me, something is going to have to give.


Having your wife's respect won't get her to behave better.

Ask any teenager. They respect their parents but does that translate into doing the "right thing" whatever that is? No.

You generally don't earn respect for what you do but for who you are perceived to be.


----------



## MEM2020

Far,
Thank you. 

I AM NOT impenetrable. Not. 

JLD,
I find it irritating that you accept my claims of telepathy lite without reservation - but immediately and persistently show skepticism when I describe a stimulus/response sequence that you dislike. 

I'll put this a different way. The guy we bought our engagement diamond from said: Two different guys rate a diamond on color and clarity. If they differ by MORE than one rating category, one of them is either entirely incompetent or dishonest. 

What he was saying made sense to me. The rating brackets are 'wide' enough to prevent a disagreement like that. 

You act like the customer who comes in over and over and accepts the color clarity ratings except for the odd situation where: you REALLY WANT the gem, and my rating puts it beyond your budget. Suddenly you question whether I'm competent or honest or both.

So now I'll reply directly and specifically to your comment regarding risk. If M2 were to respond to her ice bath - by filing - I would help her with the process. Not in a false manner: as in, "thank God I'm finally rid of you". 

More of a: If you want to escalate from sucker punching to gas lighting to filing, you clearly don't want to be paired with me. I'll be sad. AND I'll be ok. If having me pretend the sky is pink, or that it's ok for M2 to sucker punch me and refuse to explain why are her conditions for remaining paired, than we are incompatible. 

You seem unwilling to accept that. And that's ok. You don't have to accept it. It is quite simply the truth. 






farsidejunky said:


> Or is he showing that he is not inpenetrable, which seems to be your expectation?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Sam... I want to share a story with you. One day, my H lit into me about something. I was being gaslit repeatedly in his effort to affect my position. He was dripping in contenpt and sarcasm. I took the position of speaking quiet consistent truth. No disrespect to him whatsoever. As soon as I finished he ramped up again. Must have cycled through at least 20 times. He had a bad habit of using heavy sarcasm and gaslighting if I did not agree with his position. This went on for a long time that day. I had really done an exceptional job in the face of such foulness. Thats the only way I can describe it. I took super extra care that day to maintain dignity. Well... Finally he said something so contemptuous that I totally shifted tactics. I blew my stack BIG and rocked him back on his heels. I made it extemely clear that he was the most ungrateful p**** and that he was lucky I was even still in the house and he chooses to talk to me like that on top of everything else. He stood there not saying a word. Silently left and I haven't seen Mr. Contemptuous Ingrate show up since. Sometimes, enough is enough. So, do your best on meeting needs and preserving your dignity when she wont respond, but by God, there are moments when the hammer MUST come down .

Take from that what you will. Up to you.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Far,
> Thank you.
> 
> I AM NOT impenetrable. Not.
> 
> JLD,
> I find it irritating that you accept my claims of telepathy lite without reservation - but immediately and persistently show skepticism when I describe a stimulus/response sequence that you dislike.
> 
> I'll put this a different way. The guy we bought our engagement diamond from said: Two different guys rate a diamond on color and clarity. If they differ by MORE than one rating category, one of them is either entirely incompetent or dishonest.
> 
> What he was saying made sense to me. The rating brackets are 'wide' enough to prevent a disagreement like that.
> 
> You act like the customer who comes in over and over and accepts the color clarity ratings except for the odd situation where: you REALLY WANT the gem, and my rating puts it beyond your budget. Suddenly you question whether I'm competent or honest or both.
> 
> So now I'll reply directly and specifically to your comment regarding risk. If M2 were to respond to her ice bath - by filing - I would help her with the process. Not in a false manner: as in, "thank God I'm finally rid of you".
> 
> More of a: If you want to escalate from sucker punching to gas lighting to filing, you clearly don't want to be paired with me. I'll be sad. AND I'll be ok. If having me pretend the sky is pink, or that it's ok for M2 to sucker punch me and refuse to explain why are her conditions for remaining paired, than we are incompatible.
> 
> You seem unwilling to accept that. And that's ok. You don't have to accept it. It is quite simply the truth.


I think I hit a nerve here.

I will go back and reread your post. Maybe then we can discuss what we may see differently, if you want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I think I hit a nerve here.
> 
> I will go back and reread your post. Maybe then we can discuss what we may see differently, if you want.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think the behavior which Dug displays, which you seem to want to push every male on this board to become, comes so natural to him that you have no idea how difficult it actually is to do for those to whom it does not come naturally.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM11363 said:


> Far,
> Thank you.
> 
> I AM NOT impenetrable. Not.
> 
> JLD,
> I find it irritating that you accept my claims of telepathy lite without reservation - but immediately and persistently show skepticism when I describe a stimulus/response sequence that you dislike.
> 
> I'll put this a different way. The guy we bought our engagement diamond from said: Two different guys rate a diamond on color and clarity. If they differ by MORE than one rating category, one of them is either entirely incompetent or dishonest.
> 
> What he was saying made sense to me. The rating brackets are 'wide' enough to prevent a disagreement like that.
> 
> You act like the customer who comes in over and over and accepts the color clarity ratings except for the odd situation where: you REALLY WANT the gem, and my rating puts it beyond your budget. Suddenly you question whether I'm competent or honest or both.
> 
> So now I'll reply directly and specifically to your comment regarding risk. If M2 were to respond to her ice bath - by filing - I would help her with the process. Not in a false manner: as in, "thank God I'm finally rid of you".
> 
> More of a: If you want to escalate from sucker punching to gas lighting to filing, you clearly don't want to be paired with me. I'll be sad. AND I'll be ok. If having me pretend the sky is pink, or that it's ok for M2 to sucker punch me and refuse to explain why are her conditions for remaining paired, than we are incompatible.
> 
> You seem unwilling to accept that. And that's ok. You don't have to accept it. It is quite simply the truth.


Mem:

Anything less than total acceptance from her male partner is a trigger.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> I'll try and explain this in a way that you may or may not get.
> 
> This is thank God - infrequent behavior - but it DOES trigger a 180.
> 
> Have you ever watched a cat hunt? They're patient and silent. Then it's a blitz. Totally different than dogs who escalate and escalate and then and only then - bite.
> 
> So imagine your go to sleep in a completely happy state. Your partner starts thinking about stuff - and wakes you up to a blast of pure 'I hate you' tone and body language.
> 
> I won't speak for the rest of my brothers. All I can say is that such events are emotionally draining. And then - the follow up play: I have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> Really means: There's no way to justify what I did. So let's both pretend I didn't do it.
> 
> I think you're missing something here. I actually have a nervous system. I feel pain. Cut me and I bleed.
> 
> If I were sadistic I'd LEAVE HER IN THE ICE BATH FOR A WHILE AFTER SHE RETURNED TO HER SENSES AND STARTED BEGGING FORGIVENESS. I don't do that.
> 
> I didn't make her jealous. And honestly, it's more than a little tiring that she is that way. I accept it, but do NOT like it.
> 
> And when you pair jealousy with a 'I don't get angry I get even' mindset, the result is a cat style of strike.
> 
> She decides how long the freakin ice bath is. Not me.


MEM, do you feel like I am questioning your method of dealing with this? That I am not showing confidence in you?

I do have confidence in you. I have learned several useful things from you. I nearly always read your posts when I see them. You have a good heart and a good mind. We may not always agree, but I find you a highly valuable poster.

About the way you handle her jealousy and gaslighting . . . you certainly know the situation better than I do. It has just been my experience that when I feel completely comfortable with someone, I totally open my heart to them. I know my heart is safe with them. That is how I want M2 to feel with you. Not gaslighting you and then pretending it did not happen.

I know you have done a lot of work on yourself in the last few years, MEM. You certainly do not have to do more. But if you would want to, this gaslighting/pretending might be something you want to address.

Do you remember a few months ago when you said you told your wife that even if she was jealous of your sister, you would still choose your sister over her? Meaning, you would still go see your sister, even if it made your wife uncomfortable, and you had to leave her at home?

I would not take that approach. I would not just give in to your wife's insecurity, either. But there has to be a way to reassure her, to delve into that insecurity and heal it, while also continuing to see your sister. There has to be a Win/Win in there. At least that is what I would be striving for.

MEM, we all have areas where we could improve. We all get defensive. When we find ourselves getting defensive, it is just something to take note of, to work on if we feel like it. It is not forced, not obligatory. 

I know M2 has helped you. She brought your drinking up to you. I am sure that was not pleasant. But it helped you, mainly because you accepted to hear her. That was a good example to her. 

If there is more that was triggering here, please let me know. I am not sure I am grasping all of it. I was surprised by your reaction earlier. And by far's, too.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I think the behavior which Dug displays, which you seem to want to push every male on this board to become, comes so natural to him that you have no idea how difficult it actually is to do for those to whom it does not come naturally.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think not taking things personally is a real benefit in life. Makes life much easier.

It is hard to do, though. No doubt about that.


----------



## MEM2020

Far,
I don't believe JLD gaslights Dug. So I don't believe she understands that piece of it. 

She's confusing two completely distinct behaviors. 
1. The act itself (melt down / act of intense aggression)
2. Post act gas lighting

The example I gave was resolvable in less than 60 seconds. Instead it took 3 days. The one minute solution looks like this: 
M2: sorry for being a raging bltch this morning
MEM: it's ok - do you want to talk about it
M2: can we chalk it up to temporary insanity?
MEM: sure 

Done. Over. 

If you haven't been intensely gas lit - you can't understand what it's like. 

If you have - and it doesn't bother you - I beg you to donate a sample to the human genome project. Because indifference to gas lighting is a type of interpersonal super power.... 




farsidejunky said:


> Mem:
> 
> Anything less than total acceptance from her male partner is a trigger.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Mem:
> 
> Anything less than total acceptance from her male partner is a trigger.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think you can totally accept your partner while being honest and open with them about ways they are hurting or limiting themselves.

You guys are reacting to something, and I am still not sure what.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Far,
> I don't believe JLD gaslights Dug. So I don't believe she understands that piece of it.
> 
> She's confusing two completely distinct behaviors.
> 1. The act itself (melt down / act of intense aggression)
> 2. Post act gas lighting
> 
> The example I gave was resolvable in less than 60 seconds. Instead it took 3 days. The one minute solution looks like this:
> M2: sorry for being a raging bltch this morning
> MEM: it's ok - do you want to talk about it
> M2: can we chalk it up to temporary insanity?
> MEM: sure
> 
> Done. Over.
> 
> If you haven't been intensely gas lit - you can't understand what it's like.
> 
> If you have - and it doesn't bother you - I beg you to donate a sample to the human genome project. Because indifference to gas lighting is a type of interpersonal super power....


You're funny. 

I am sure it drives you crazy to be gaslit. I have experienced it here on TAM, and even had other people come to the aid of the gaslighter.  

I would try to address it as honestly as you can. But we can't force people to be honest with themselves, which may be part of the problem. And if they cannot even be honest with themselves, likely due to the pain of it, they surely do not have the strength to be honest with us.

You are a very loving man, MEM. Combine rigorous honesty and an ability to hear whatever with that love, and I think M2 may reconsider the gaslighting.

Jmo. Worth what you pay for it.


----------



## farsidejunky

It is frustrating because it is wholly dishonest. 

What is causing the reaction is your approach that more should be done from Mem, and in my projection, me.

Do you remember the debt blowup from May of last year? Once she was caught, she went straight to gas lighting me.

To me, it was much worse than the actual infraction. At that point, it is not about what I can do. It is about what she can do to stop the emotional terrorism.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

I'm virtually certain Dug doesn't do this. But have you ever been gas lit? And I want to distinguish between two radically different scenarios. 

The first is - what I'll call an honest difference of opinion. It happens. It's normal. And it's really ok. 

The second is when someone does something that - if you had a video camera on them - the audience would all watch and cringe. And then when you ask them why. They pretend to have no idea what you're talking about. 

Let's take the situation with my sister. You and I have a somewhat different view of how it ought to have been handled. That said, I understand your view and see the merit in it. And even if you disagree with it, I believe you understand my view. 

This is - the healthy debate that helps all of us. Now pretend for a moment that I took a different approach. Let's say I used my mod powers to delete the posts discussing that situation. Or at least the ones we disagree about. And further - evidence erased - I now disputed the accuracy of your statements. I completely deny saying stuff that I did say and we BOTH KNOW I said. So I totally gas light you. 

Wouldn't that make you uncomfortable? 

As to your underlying point, I actually agree with it. IF I was able to get M2 to totally and unreservedly trust me, she wouldn't do this. That's true. And in all sincerity I wish I knew how to do that. 

But humor me for a moment. The jealousy thing about my relationship with my sister. At core, that's a trust thing also. 

And here is where I feel defeated. It isn't enough for M2 to be number 1. What she wants is to be number 1 AT ALL TIMES. Get far enough from that goal - and really bad stuff starts to happen. She quietly goes into 'getting even' mode. 

And there is no gentle way to approach that. Because it's not only dysfunctional it is sort of toxic. It's ugly enough that M2 shies away from directly dealing with it. 





jld said:


> MEM, do you feel like I am questioning your method of dealing with this? That I am not showing confidence in you?
> 
> I do have confidence in you. I have learned several useful things from you. I nearly always read your posts when I see them. You have a good heart and a good mind. We may not always agree, but I find you a highly valuable poster.
> 
> About the way you handle her jealousy and gaslighting . . . you certainly know the situation better than I do. It has just been my experience that when I feel completely comfortable with someone, I totally open my heart to them. I know my heart is safe with them. That is how I want M2 to feel with you. Not gaslighting you and then pretending it did not happen.
> 
> I know you have done a lot of work on yourself in the last few years, MEM. You certainly do not have to do more. But if you would want to, this gaslighting/pretending might be something you want to address.
> 
> Do you remember a few months ago when you said you told your wife that even if she was jealous of your sister, you would still choose your sister over her? Meaning, you would still go see your sister, even if it made your wife uncomfortable, and you had to leave her at home?
> 
> I would not take that approach. I would not just give in to your wife's insecurity, either. But there has to be a way to reassure her, to delve into that insecurity and heal it, while also continuing to see your sister. There has to be a Win/Win in there. At least that is what I would be striving for.
> 
> MEM, we all have areas where we could improve. We all get defensive. When we find ourselves getting defensive, it is just something to take note of, to work on if we feel like it. It is not forced, not obligatory.
> 
> I know M2 has helped you. She brought your drinking up to you. I am sure that was not pleasant. But it helped you, mainly because you accepted to hear her. That was a good example to her.
> 
> If there is more that was triggering here, please let me know. I am not sure I am grasping all of it. I was surprised by your reaction earlier. And by far's, too.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> It is frustrating because it is wholly dishonest.
> 
> What is causing the reaction is your approach that more should be done from Mem, and in my projection, me.
> 
> Do you remember the debt blowup from may of last year? Once she was caught, she went straight to gas lighting me.
> 
> To me, it was much worse than the actual infraction. At that point, it is not about what I can do. It is about what she can do to stop the emotional terrorism.


Far, I totally understand how being lied to is frustrating, trust-killing. Respect-destroying. I just don't know how to fix it except for making the other person feel safe to tell you the truth.

I do agree that you need to hold the truth up to them, though, too. Even if everyone around you is shielding them, they know if you are speaking truth. And that truth is what can ultimately free them.

Don't let it become emotional terrorism. Don't give them that much power over you. A liar should never have that much power over you.

Gosh, that must be hard, to be married to a liar.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Far, I totally understand how being lied to is frustrating, trust-killing. Respect-destroying. I just don't know how to fix it except for making the other person feel safe to tell you the truth.
> 
> I do agree that you need to hold the truth up to them, though, too. Even if everyone around you is shielding them, they know if you are speaking truth. And that truth is what can ultimately free them.
> 
> Don't let it become emotional terrorism. Don't give them that much power over you. A liar should never have that much power over you.
> 
> Gosh, that must be hard, to be married to a liar.


One of my principles is being honest with my partner, and expecting the same from her. The barb in that proverbial hook is that it requires vulnerability to achieve. 

I lack the ability to be vulnerable yet invulnerable, which is what your previous posts are saying should happen. I would assert that 99.9% of the population has the same problem.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> One of my principles is being honest with my partner, and expecting the same from her. The barb in that proverbial hook is that it requires vulnerability to achieve.
> 
> I lack the ability to be vulnerable yet invulnerable, which is what your previous posts are saying should happen. I would assert that 99.9% of the population has the same problem.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Dug, can you talk about how you do this?


----------



## ReturntoZero

SadSamIAm said:


> Maybe this is where I went wrong. It got so bad that I was ready to abandon her (at least I thought I was). I think that hurt her more than I realize. She thought I would be her punching bag forever. She probably figures she wasn't that bad, since I put up with it for 20 years.


Sam,

When she shows/showed me the little scared girl, the ice man melted away and she got full support. My safe man advised me that positive reinforcement is the best tool when she feels vulnerable.

It's 180 degrees different from accepting her bull**** excuses for being inconsiderate and thoughtless and swallowing the **** sandwich. WHEN the relationship becomes unstable (not if), you become the rock she leans on and is never unsure of your love. The more vulnerability she shows you, the stronger and more supportive you become.

Eventually, you become "her" safe man.

This isn't for everyone. It takes years. I've been at it for 5 going on six years now. We accept each other and we don't fight much. We still have our moments, I still hear the crap that "if not this, then I'd have left" and other half-hearted attempts to put me on defense.

None of it works.

I would expect after a decade or so of consistency, even that stuff will be minimal.


----------



## ReturntoZero

SadSamIAm said:


> I think I have made a decision. I have decided to lead the marriage 'into the land of milk and honey'. It may turn out that I don't have the strength.
> 
> I am trying to be positive and ensure that I am being a good husband. When she is snarky, I am asking her questions like you guys say, trying to find out why she is unhappy. I think it kind of pisses her off. I think she is almost wanting me to get angry.


Sam,

People who feed off the overreactions of others are emotional vampires.

Once their blood supply gets cut off, it's interesting to observe how they respond.


----------



## turnera

farsidejunky said:


> It is frustrating because it is wholly dishonest.
> 
> What is causing the reaction is your approach that more should be done from Mem, and in my projection, me.
> 
> Do you remember the debt blowup from May of last year? Once she was caught, she went straight to gas lighting me.


I must be having a brainfart. farside, do you have your own thread here? Have I been there?


----------



## farsidejunky

turnera said:


> I must be having a brainfart. farside, do you have your own thread here? Have I been there?


I have what amounts to a continuation of my "Sh!t Test" thread in a social group. You were heavily involved in that thread, but it was back in 2014 mostly.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> I'm virtually certain Dug doesn't do this. But have you ever been gas lit? And I want to distinguish between two radically different scenarios.
> 
> The first is - what I'll call an honest difference of opinion. It happens. It's normal. And it's really ok.
> 
> The second is when someone does something that - if you had a video camera on them - the audience would all watch and cringe. And then when you ask them why. They pretend to have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> Let's take the situation with my sister. You and I have a somewhat different view of how it ought to have been handled. That said, I understand your view and see the merit in it. And even if you disagree with it, I believe you understand my view.
> 
> This is - the healthy debate that helps all of us. Now pretend for a moment that I took a different approach. Let's say I used my mod powers to delete the posts discussing that situation. Or at least the ones we disagree about. And further - evidence erased - I now disputed the accuracy of your statements. I completely deny saying stuff that I did say and we BOTH KNOW I said. So I totally gas light you.
> 
> Wouldn't that make you uncomfortable?
> 
> As to your underlying point, I actually agree with it. IF I was able to get M2 to totally and unreservedly trust me, she wouldn't do this. That's true. And in all sincerity I wish I knew how to do that.
> 
> But humor me for a moment. The jealousy thing about my relationship with my sister. At core, that's a trust thing also.
> 
> And here is where I feel defeated. It isn't enough for M2 to be number 1. What she wants is to be number 1 AT ALL TIMES. Get far enough from that goal - and really bad stuff starts to happen. She quietly goes into 'getting even' mode.
> 
> And there is no gentle way to approach that. Because it's not only dysfunctional it is sort of toxic. It's ugly enough that M2 shies away from directly dealing with it.


MEM, can I ask you a question? 

When do you lie?

Further, 

When are you less than 100% honest?


----------



## john117

Further, does she know you lie?


----------



## jld

Just to follow up, as I wait for MEM's answer . . . the point is not that MEM is some sort of liar. The point is that we all lie, or are less than 100% honest. Some of us rarely lie, but I believe we all do it. And I bet that most of us are regularly less than 100% honest. 

It is interesting to ask ourselves Why? because then we can try to understand why someone else might do it, instead of just feeling angry at them for it.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD, 
I lie when I feel sufficiently threatened. And/or extremely embarrassed. I believe this is rare - but then I imagine everyone says so. 

As to being less than 100% honest - let's break that down carefully. 

If we use this definition of honesty: the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth 

Than I'm often not totally honest. Meaning completely transparent. 

If instead we use my preferred definition: which is the truth, but not the whole truth (I call this using a filter, or if you like using restraint)

It's fairly rare that I knowingly say stuff that isn't true. At least I believe that to be the case. 

Now let's focus on gas lighting. Because that's a special sub type of lying. I don't think I do that. I can say with confidence that I don't conciously choose to do that. 

I think I generally know when I'm being truthful. 

For example - I flat out lied to you in a PM maybe 2 or so weeks back. Felt bad immediately after. Was embarrassed about doing so and let it drop. 

You wanted me to answer a question. I wanted you to answer a different question. I used your question as leverage to get mine answered. Aside from that not being terribly kind, after the fact I misrepresented my motivations. 

After we answered one another I said something that was: untrue, and unnecessary. I believe what I said was that I had needed time to think about how to answer your question. Totally untrue. It was a pure leverage play. A gratuitous lie about my motives and a crappy thing to do. 

I'm sorry. That was a lame thing to do. I have no excuse. 

So yes - I am sometimes dishonest. It's a flaw. And not a small one. 

I do have a very specific filter that comes in handy. It blocks out a tone of disapproval or moral judgement from my posts. I find it helpful because if I 'raw feed' the other person, they stop hearing anything I say. So I filter out the moral comments and instead focus entirely on expected outcomes. 

Helps a lot that I believe doing the 'right' thing typically produces the best result. 




jld said:


> MEM, can I ask you a question?
> 
> When do you lie?
> 
> Further,
> 
> When are you less than 100% honest?


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

You have absolutely earned the right to ask me this question. 

On a related note: sometimes I seem to contradict myself and sometimes I am contradicting myself. 

I routinely contradict stuff that I wrote on TAM 5 years ago. My views have changed. And sometimes two posters have subtle but pronounced differences in their situations. At a glance, I might seem inconsistent. But a fine grained review might say otherwise.






jld said:


> Just to follow up, as I wait for MEM's answer . . . the point is not that MEM is some sort of liar. The point is that we all lie, or are less than 100% honest. Some of us rarely lie, but I believe we all do it. And I bet that most of us are regularly less than 100% honest.
> 
> It is interesting to ask ourselves Why? because then we can try to understand why someone else might do it, instead of just feeling angry at them for it.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

So - this is the root - of my sadness. The nerve you referenced earlier. I am unable to identify the underlying pattern. Ultimately - I don't get this core aspect to M2. And in my world, true love is based on comprehension. 




jld said:


> Just to follow up, as I wait for MEM's answer . . . the point is not that MEM is some sort of liar. The point is that we all lie, or are less than 100% honest. Some of us rarely lie, but I believe we all do it. And I bet that most of us are regularly less than 100% honest.
> 
> It is interesting to ask ourselves Why? because then we can try to understand why someone else might do it, instead of just feeling angry at them for it.


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> So - this is the root - of my sadness. The nerve you referenced earlier. I am unable to identify the underlying pattern. Ultimately - I don't get this core aspect to M2. And in my world, true love is based on comprehension.


This, combined with the reiterating that what you are doing is somehow not enough.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Sam, how did last night go?


----------



## ReturntoZero

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sam, how did last night go?


Who is Sam?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ReturntoZero said:


> Who is Sam?


Lol... The original poster silly


SadSamIAm

I just shorten it


----------



## ReturntoZero

Blossom Leigh said:


> Lol... The original poster silly
> 
> 
> SadSamIAm
> 
> I just shorten it


I know... we just haven't been discussing him for awhile.:wink2:


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> So - this is the root - of my sadness. The nerve you referenced earlier. I am unable to identify the underlying pattern. Ultimately - I don't get this core aspect to M2. And in my world, true love is based on comprehension.


The pattern being that when she is not number one, she gets mad, starts getting even, gaslights (lies about/denies what she is doing), probably blames you/will not take responsibility for her own feelings?

It would be a lot easier if she would say, "MEM, I feel insecure when we go to your sister's house. I don't feel as important to you as your sister. When you say you will still go, but will leave me at home because of the way I behave when we are with her, it brings out the worst in me. It brings out my fear that I really do not deserve you, that I am not as good as your sister. It confirms that fear. And then my whole world, that I have built around your acceptance of me, collapses."

"MEM, if your world were built around someone who told you outright that he or she would drop you in a flash in favor of another person, would you not feel insecure and fearful, too? Would it not bring all that fear and hurt to the forefront, too? Would you not react by getting mad and trying to get even, too?"

"That is why I do it. Because I feel those feelings, but am not secure and mature enough to take responsibility for them. I am not able to stand independently. I keep leaning on you for my sense of self-worth. When you choose someone else, to me it means I am not worthy, that I have no true value. Do you have any idea how painful, how crushing, that is?"

"To try to preserve myself, not just my pride, but my very sense of any self worth at all, I fight back. But I am not even strong enough to do it directly. That would be too risky. I might lose you and I know I cannot afford that. So I do it underhandedly. I take out all my anger at you for betraying me, plus all my hurt at being weak enough to be vulnerable to it, on you."

"All I really want is your love, your acceptance. I want to know that I am good enough, important enough, for you to choose me first. I wish I could choose myself first. I wish I valued myself that much. Then I would not look to you for it."

"But because I do not, I look to you to provide it for me. And when you do not, I feel like my very existence is threatened. Would you not fight back however you could if you felt your existence were threatened, too, MEM?"

I don't know if any of that is accurate or helpful, MEM. It is just what came to mind based on what you have written.

I see two possible answers. One would be for M2 to take responsibility for her feelings and learn to meet her own needs. She would have to be rigorously honest with herself and you. She would have to accept the limitations of her relationship with you and decide whether the relationship is enough for her. If she could truly mature and become secure enough to take responsibility for her feelings, she may outgrow the relationship, too. Rigorous honesty, combined with taking responsibility for ourselves, can take us right out of relationships where we were previously the dependent ones.

The other answer is that you can take the role of parent and help her grow out of the dependence by meeting the need she is displaying: being number one in your life.

You know about the needs of babies and toddlers, that they must have those needs filled to progress to the next level of growth. All my babies/small children went through a phase where I had to hold/reassure them that I loved them best and would have to give them preference over the older kids. This seemed to go away when another baby came along and they became one of the big kids with a younger sibling to protect.

But your wife is the youngest, right? So she never went through that.

I am the youngest in my family, too. I see it in my youngest, too. In some ways, we never really stop being the baby. 

It helps if you marry an oldest child, like I did. To them it is not a burden to carry a youngest child; it actually makes them feel good about themselves to have that kind of responsibility.

After nearly 23 years, Dug still seems delighted with me. Says marrying me was the best decision he ever made. I think deep down, even when you feel frustrated by M2, you feel that way, too.

A big difference between you and Dug, though, is that you have emotional needs. I think Dug really is remarkably independent. 

I don't think we hear enough about the needs that M2 fills in you. Do you tell her about those needs, and how she meets them?

Well, this has gotten to be rather long, and possibly a t/j. I hope we can continue to discuss it in pm. I would like to see M2 healed, too. And I think your love and acceptance, along with rigorous honesty, could be a vehicle of growth for both of you.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ReturntoZero said:


> I know... we just haven't been discussing him for awhile.:wink2:


I know  I tried to salvage it, but was ignored ...

lol... sorry I missed the joke


----------



## john117

There's very little difference between 'being number one' and 'being dependent'. 

I know it's a controversial thought but that's how I feel.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

john117 said:


> There's very little difference between 'being number one' and 'being dependent'.
> 
> I know it's a controversial thought but that's how I feel.


Excellent observation and that is the exact thought that went through my head when I read that.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> There's very little difference between 'being number one' and 'being dependent'.
> 
> I know it's a controversial thought but that's how I feel.


Would you like to elaborate?

We could start another thread, if Sam would like.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Would you like to elaborate?
> 
> We could start another thread, if Sam would like.


I think opening a new thread to flesh out these ideas is a great idea.


----------



## john117

OK, I'll create a thread later today.


----------



## Chuck71

john117 said:


> There's very little difference between 'being number one' and 'being dependent'.
> 
> I know it's a controversial thought but that's how I feel.


Being as dominate as possible from the least amount of effort.

19th century Europe.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sam, how did last night go?


I came home and she was making supper. I told her I was going to work out before I ate because if I wait until later I tend to not do it. I gave her a little hug and went and worked out for 45 minutes. Then had a steam shower.

Went out and ate supper with my son. Wife said she wasn't going to eat for a bit. A bit strange as we typically eat together. She was dusting. I asked her if our oldest daughter had texted her the house she is looking at buying. She had not, so I got the Ipad and looked it up. We looked at the pictures of the house together and talked about how we both liked it. 

After supper I asked her if she wanted to watch 'our show' (we watch a soap opera together that gets recorded every day). She said sure that she was going to bake some cookies. I offered to help and she told me it was a one person job. So she baked while I was on the couch and we watched the show together. Talked a bit about what is going on in the show. After the show, she spent the evening cleaning and I watch TV. At 11:00, I said goodnight to her and went to bed. Not sure what time she came to bed.

This morning I showered and got dressed. Before I left I went over and rubbed her neck for a minute or so, kissed her and said have a good day.

I think she is a bit confused. I haven't been reacting to her. She isn't getting the fights like usual. And I haven't been trying to initiate sex either. 

I think it went well. I could tell when I was rubbing her neck that she was liking it and wasn't annoyed (like her facial expression sometimes shows).


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Sounds like switching things up a lot is working with her. Keep her guessing.. its raising her curiosity level. That's a good thing.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sounds like switching things up a lot is working with her. Keep her guessing.. its raising her curiosity level. That's a good thing.


It will be interesting which way it goes. Could make her more 'quilly' or less. Not sure what will happen.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> It will be interesting which way it goes. Could make her more 'quilly' or less. Not sure what will happen.


Agree.


----------



## jld

The lack of neediness and resulting reactivity surely helps.


----------



## john117

Thread on dependence vs number one created at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/showthread.php?t=318026


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I have hit the breaking point a few times and she doesn't realize how close she is to losing me. I am hoping she wakes up.


Respectfully man. 

I don't believe you. 

You played this game once before and left and then came back. You don't have to bluff and bluster here. I think she could continue this game forever and you'd still be married and complaining about it. 

And that's ok. 

You don't need the mask.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Respectfully man.
> 
> I don't believe you.
> 
> You played this game once before and left and then came back. You don't have to bluff and bluster here. I think she could continue this game forever and you'd still be married and complaining about it.
> 
> And that's ok.
> 
> You don't need the mask.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you feel like that, too, Marduk?


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Do you feel like that, too, Marduk?


About a year or two ago, I did. I really wanted to think I would just walk out the door when my wife did some of the stuff she did.

And then I didn't, but I kept threatening to. And that did all kinds of harm.

What I had to do was be really clear with myself where my boundaries actually were, not where I wanted them to be -- even if that seemed like a weakened or softened stance.

Because what I was really trying to do was warn that some boundaries that meant we would be done were being approached, and signal that some boundaries that might chronically damage the relationship had been crossed already.

And those are two different things.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> About a year or two ago, I did. I really wanted to think I would just walk out the door when my wife did some of the stuff she did.
> 
> And then I didn't, but I kept threatening to. And that did all kinds of harm.
> 
> What I had to do was be really clear with myself where my boundaries actually were, not where I wanted them to be -- even if that seemed like a weakened or softened stance.
> 
> *Because what I was really trying to do was warn that some boundaries that meant we would be done were being approached, and signal that some boundaries that might chronically damage the relationship had been crossed already.*
> 
> And those are two different things.


VERY good way to word that dynamic.


----------



## AVR1962

So you have sex 3-4 times a month and daily or more when you go out of town together, married 25 years, and you are seriously thinking of leaving. Have you ever considered that maybe your wife is not as interested in sex as you are?


----------



## SadSamIAm

AVR1962 said:


> So you have sex 3-4 times a month and daily or more when you go out of town together, married 25 years, and you are seriously thinking of leaving. Have you ever considered that maybe your wife is not as interested in sex as you are?


There is more to it than that if you care to read a bit more.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

I guessing that the way you frame this is How M2 does. 

This helps me understand her. That said its not a pretty picture. I consider your interpretation below - a disturbing distortion of my position. And frankly it's a level of distortion I associate with mental illness - not poor reading comprehension. 

My posture on this stuff is easily understood. I'm going to maintain my familial relationships. If you can't manage to get on with my family, we'll be apart when I visit them. 

This 'drop you in a flash' implies abandonment / divorce. 

Now since you are hyper focused on this issue of abandonment, I'll be very precise about it. 
1. I would maintain familial relations even if M2 destroys her relationships with my family members. 
2. Part of that would include continuing to visit them.
3. If M2 tried to force me to choose. I wouldn't. If she left me over this, I'd accept that.

And your language in the paragraph below - is perfectly on key - for this discussion. 



---------
"MEM, if your world were built around someone who told you outright that he or she would drop you in a flash in favor of another person, would you not feel insecure and fearful, too? Would it not bring all that fear and hurt to the forefront, too? Would you not react by getting mad and trying to get even, too?"
----------




jld said:


> The pattern being that when she is not number one, she gets mad, starts getting even, gaslights (lies about/denies what she is doing), probably blames you/will not take responsibility for her own feelings?
> 
> It would be a lot easier if she would say, "MEM, I feel insecure when we go to your sister's house. I don't feel as important to you as your sister. When you say you will still go, but will leave me at home because of the way I behave when we are with her, it brings out the worst in me. It brings out my fear that I really do not deserve you, that I am not as good as your sister. It confirms that fear. And then my whole world, that I have built around your acceptance of me, collapses."
> 
> "MEM, if your world were built around someone who told you outright that he or she would drop you in a flash in favor of another person, would you not feel insecure and fearful, too? Would it not bring all that fear and hurt to the forefront, too? Would you not react by getting mad and trying to get even, too?"
> 
> "That is why I do it. Because I feel those feelings, but am not secure and mature enough to take responsibility for them. I am not able to stand independently. I keep leaning on you for my sense of self-worth. When you choose someone else, to me it means I am not worthy, that I have no true value. Do you have any idea how painful, how crushing, that is?"
> 
> "To try to preserve myself, not just my pride, but my very sense of any self worth at all, I fight back. But I am not even strong enough to do it directly. That would be too risky. I might lose you and I know I cannot afford that. So I do it underhandedly. I take out all my anger at you for betraying me, plus all my hurt at being weak enough to be vulnerable to it, on you."
> 
> "All I really want is your love, your acceptance. I want to know that I am good enough, important enough, for you to choose me first. I wish I could choose myself first. I wish I valued myself that much. Then I would not look to you for it."
> 
> "But because I do not, I look to you to provide it for me. And when you do not, I feel like my very existence is threatened. Would you not fight back however you could if you felt your existence were threatened, too, MEM?"
> 
> I don't know if any of that is accurate or helpful, MEM. It is just what came to mind based on what you have written.
> 
> I see two possible answers. One would be for M2 to take responsibility for her feelings and learn to meet her own needs. She would have to be rigorously honest with herself and you. She would have to accept the limitations of her relationship with you and decide whether the relationship is enough for her. If she could truly mature and become secure enough to take responsibility for her feelings, she may outgrow the relationship, too. Rigorous honesty, combined with taking responsibility for ourselves, can take us right out of relationships where we were previously the dependent ones.
> 
> The other answer is that you can take the role of parent and help her grow out of the dependence by meeting the need she is displaying: being number one in your life.
> 
> You know about the needs of babies and toddlers, that they must have those needs filled to progress to the next level of growth. All my babies/small children went through a phase where I had to hold/reassure them that I loved them best and would have to give them preference over the older kids. This seemed to go away when another baby came along and they became one of the big kids with a younger sibling to protect.
> 
> But your wife is the youngest, right? So she never went through that.
> 
> I am the youngest in my family, too. I see it in my youngest, too. In some ways, we never really stop being the baby.
> 
> It helps if you marry an oldest child, like I did. To them it is not a burden to carry a youngest child; it actually makes them feel good about themselves to have that kind of responsibility.
> 
> After nearly 23 years, Dug still seems delighted with me. Says marrying me was the best decision he ever made. I think deep down, even when you feel frustrated by M2, you feel that way, too.
> 
> A big difference between you and Dug, though, is that you have emotional needs. I think Dug really is remarkably independent.
> 
> I don't think we hear enough about the needs that M2 fills in you. Do you tell her about those needs, and how she meets them?
> 
> Well, this has gotten to be rather long, and possibly a t/j. I hope we can continue to discuss it in pm. I would like to see M2 healed, too. And I think your love and acceptance, along with rigorous honesty, could be a vehicle of growth for both of you.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> I guessing that the way you frame this is How M2 does.
> 
> This helps me understand her. That said its not a pretty picture. I consider your interpretation below - a disturbing distortion of my position. And frankly it's a level of distortion I associate with mental illness - not poor reading comprehension.
> 
> My posture on this stuff is easily understood. I'm going to maintain my familial relationships. If you can't manage to get on with my family, we'll be apart when I visit them.
> 
> This 'drop you in a flash' implies abandonment / divorce.
> 
> Now since you are hyper focused on this issue of abandonment, I'll be very precise about it.
> 1. I would maintain familial relations even if M2 destroys her relationships with my family members.
> 2. Part of that would include continuing to visit them.
> 3. If M2 tried to force me to choose. I wouldn't. If she left me over this, I'd accept that.
> 
> And your language in the paragraph below - is perfectly on key - for this discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> ---------
> "MEM, if your world were built around someone who told you outright that he or she would drop you in a flash in favor of another person, would you not feel insecure and fearful, too? Would it not bring all that fear and hurt to the forefront, too? Would you not react by getting mad and trying to get even, too?"
> ----------


I don't think it has to come to choosing between the two. I think you could work with her on this, provide the reassurance and the conflict resolution skills that could heal those relationships.

MEM, she has walls. But you have them, too. Do you see that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

You are doing exactly what M2 does. 
1. Take a position of mine that's about ME. And make it about M2. 
2. Grossly misrepresent my position (drop you in a flash).
3. Ignore all subsequent comments about that distortion. 
4. Ask me to take responsibility for fixing the problems she's created.







jld said:


> I don't think it has to come to choosing between the two. I think you could work with her on this, provide the reassurance and the conflict resolution skills that could heal those relationships.
> 
> MEM, she has walls. But you have them, too. Do you see that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> You are doing exactly what M2 does.
> 1. Take a position of mine that's about ME. And make it about M2.
> 2. Grossly misrepresent my position (drop you in a flash).
> 3. Ignore all subsequent comments about that distortion.
> 4. Ask me to take responsibility for fixing the problems she's created.


Do you feel misunderstood? That too much is being asked of you? That it is just unfair?

Do you think maybe she feels that way, too?

We don't have to talk about it if you would rather not. I understand it may be sensitive territory. We all have that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

ETA: Blossom, this is the one, right?

The questions were my understanding based on what he said. As I was writing them, it occurred to me that his wife might be feeling the same things. That is why I asked him that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> You are doing exactly what M2 does.
> 1. Take a position of mine that's about ME. And make it about M2.
> 2. Grossly misrepresent my position (drop you in a flash).
> 3. Ignore all subsequent comments about that distortion.
> 4. Ask me to take responsibility for fixing the problems she's created.


This is precisely *why* I feel each individual healing from their abandonment issues as much as possible is very important. That healing causes this dynamic to no longer exist. No gross misrepresentation of a spouse, no distortion, no taking responsibility for the things that happened before you even met. 

The persons living with unaware persons like this are choosing to live with someone who is not emotionally sober. Therefore emotionally unavailable to a degree. And leaving themselves at risk of emotional injury from the unhealed one. That was the position I was in and the narcissistic reactions from my H were so severe there was no way to maintain status quo.

Sam is facing the same issue... is he ok choosing to live with an unaware ACOA. Will he come to the point where he no longer chooses to maintain status quo. She may respond enough without it having to leave the relationship, but these issues run deep and only the person living with it will know what they can handle.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Do you feel misunderstood? That too much is being asked of you? That it is just unfair?
> 
> Do you think maybe she feels that way, too?
> 
> We don't have to talk about it if you would rather not. I understand it may be sensitive territory. We all have that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I experienced physical illness reading these questions to MEM


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I experienced physical illness reading these questions to MEM


Do you want to talk about it, Blossom?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Do you want to talk about it, Blossom?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They feel psychologically abusive to me, so I empathize with MEM.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> They feel psychologically abusive to me, so I empathize with MEM.


There does seem to be some triggering going on here. I was surprised to see that.

And again, we do not have to discuss this. No one is under any obligation to discuss anything they do not feel comfortable with.

_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
Gently - I don't feel misunderstood at all. I feel misrepresented. That is totally different. 

Do you not understand the giant chasm between my position and your representation of it? 

Because I honestly believe that you are the one who is triggering. Just took my pulse. It's 60. It's been unchanged during this back and forth. It's kind of uncanny that you and M2 employ the same distortion engine when subjects even peripheral to abandonment arise. 




jld said:


> Do you feel misunderstood? That too much is being asked of you? That it is just unfair?
> 
> Do you think maybe she feels that way, too?
> 
> We don't have to talk about it if you would rather not. I understand it may be sensitive territory. We all have that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> There does seem to be some triggering going on here. I was surprised to see that.
> 
> And again, we do not have to discuss this. No one is under any obligation to discuss anything they do not feel comfortable with.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Psychological abuse is one of the hardest to spot. It was one reason it took me so long to see it in my Mom. But at the core of it, person#1 is not accepting the stated "who" of person #2. 

To be honest jld... you may have unintentionally gaslit MEM

Others may want to double check me but here is the definition:

Gaslighting or gas-lighting is a form of mental abuse in which information is twisted or spun, selectively omitted to favor the abuser, or false information is presented *with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception, and sanity*

I put this out there not with the intent to harm you jld. I invite others to chime in and cross check me. I think it is important to put these kinds of things in the light when we are all wanting to be our best.


----------



## MEM2020

The burden is on JLD to find posts I've made that back up her assertions. I'm not upset, she's just wrong. 

And wrong in a manner that paints me to a degree as the aggressor - and M2 as a sympathetic character. 




Blossom Leigh said:


> Psychological abuse is one of the hardest to spot. It was one reason it took me so long to see it in my Mom. But at the core of it, person#1 is not accepting the stated "who" of person #2.
> 
> To be honest jld... you may have unintentionally gaslit MEM
> 
> Others may want to double check me but here is the definition:
> 
> Gaslighting or gas-lighting is a form of mental abuse in which information is twisted or spun, selectively omitted to favor the abuser, or false information is presented *with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception, and sanity*
> 
> I put this out there not with the intent to harm you jld. I invite others to chime in and cross check me. I think it is important to put these kinds of things in the light when we are all wanting to be our best.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MEM11363 said:


> The burden is on JLD to find posts I've made that back up her assertions. I'm not upset, she's just wrong.
> 
> And wrong in a manner that paints me to a degree as the aggressor - and M2 as a sympathetic character.


I'm glad you are not upset and yes I agree she is wrong. 

I take issue with the way she reapproached you as entering gaslight territory.

I had a visceral reaction to it.

If I do that to anyone here call me on it.

Again jld... no intent to harm putting voice to that.


----------



## john117

Y'all need a professional opinion...


----------



## Duguesclin

MEM11363 said:


> The burden is on JLD to find posts I've made that back up her assertions. I'm not upset, she's just wrong.
> 
> And wrong in a manner that paints me to a degree as the aggressor - and M2 as a sympathetic character.


MEM, What kind of assertions do you think JLD made?

How did she portrait you as an aggressor and your wife as a sympathetic character?


----------



## MEM2020

JLD quote:

"MEM, if your world were built around someone who told you outright that he or she would drop you in a flash in favor of another person, would you not feel insecure and fearful, too? Would it not bring all that fear and hurt to the forefront, too? Would you not react by getting mad and trying to get even, too?"






Duguesclin said:


> MEM, What kind of assertions do you think JLD made?
> 
> How did she portrait you as an aggressor and your wife as a sympathetic character?


----------



## Duguesclin

MEM11363 said:


> JLD quote:
> 
> "MEM, if your world were built around someone who told you outright that he or she would drop you in a flash in favor of another person, would you not feel insecure and fearful, too? Would it not bring all that fear and hurt to the forefront, too? Would you not react by getting mad and trying to get even, too?"


You do not like the attitude of your wife when she is with your sister. You are willing to leave her home in order to have a peaceful time with your family.

Don't you think it is very plausible for your wife to feel abandon when you chose your family over her?


----------



## jld

MEM and Blossom, I was surprised to read your latest posts. I think we are coming from very different places here, seeing and clearly feeling very different things.

To me, we are having a conversation, exchanging different points of view. I realize it can feel different when your own relationship is the subject of conversation.

MEM, I don't know your wife. I have no idea if what I said is accurate or not. I certainly do not see you as an abuser. I did think that you were searching for understanding, though. Did you not say that in one of your posts, that that was the missing link?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> Psychological abuse is one of the hardest to spot. It was one reason it took me so long to see it in my Mom. But at the core of it, person#1 is not accepting the stated "who" of person #2.
> 
> To be honest jld... you may have unintentionally gaslit MEM
> 
> Others may want to double check me but here is the definition:
> 
> Gaslighting or gas-lighting is a form of mental abuse in which information is twisted or spun, selectively omitted to favor the abuser, or false information is presented *with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception, and sanity*
> 
> I put this out there not with the intent to harm you jld. I invite others to chime in and cross check me. I think it is important to put these kinds of things in the light when we are all wanting to be our best.


I've been on the wrong side of that myself, and I 100% agree. 

I also do not think the harm was intentional. But I do question if she does not actually see it, because the not seeing of it brings her a lot of benefit.


----------



## Marduk

Duguesclin said:


> MEM, What kind of assertions do you think JLD made?
> 
> How did she portrait you as an aggressor and your wife as a sympathetic character?


C'mon Dug. 

I grok your need to protect your wife. 

But I know you see it too, deep down. None of us are trying to hurt her here.


----------



## Duguesclin

marduk said:


> C'mon Dug.
> 
> I grok your need to protect your wife.
> 
> But I know you see it too, deep down. None of us are trying to hurt her here.


But somehow she is hurting MEM, Blossom and you (although not in this thread). I am trying to understand. 

On what MEM quoted, where does he get she is portraying him as an abuser and his wife as sympathetic?


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> So - this is the root - of my sadness. The nerve you referenced earlier. I am unable to identify the underlying pattern. Ultimately - I don't get this core aspect to M2. And in my world, true love is based on comprehension.


This is the post I referred to earlier, MEM. I was trying to help you identify that pattern, reach that comprehension, ultimately heal your (and her) sadness. Not touch another nerve.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yea, I know there is no intentional harm in any of us.


I thought it beneficial to share my visceral reaction. We all strive to be our best and challenge each other from time to time which is good and healthy. I just got concerned with the approach taken on this one.

MEM was clearly stating his reasonable belief.

In turn, the questions belittled, discounted, and criticized his perception.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, I know there is no intentional harm in any of us.
> 
> 
> I thought it beneficial to share my visceral reaction. We all strive to be our best and challenge each other from time to time which is good and healthy. I just got concerned with the approach taken on this one.
> 
> MEM was clearly stating his reasonable belief.
> 
> In turn, the questions belittled, discounted, and criticized his perception.


I understand that was your perception. I simply disagree.


----------



## MEM2020

Dug,
If you can't see the difference between what I said, and how JLD portrays it, I can't help you. 

On a related note:
I say: JLD is portraying me as an aggressor you claim I said: abuser

Dug - aggressor and abuser aren't synonyms.

And yes - in my opinion - JLD is portraying me inaccurately. 

She framing this as a real case of abandonment instead of what it really is: accountability

My sister isn't jealous. Nor is she hard to get on with. If M2 blows up their relationship - she's blown up THEIR relationship. Not mine. 




Duguesclin said:


> But somehow she is hurting MEM, Blossom and you (although not in this thread). I am trying to understand.
> 
> On what MEM quoted, where does he get she is portraying him as an abuser and his wife as sympathetic?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Also, MEM feels if his wife demonstrates unreasonable destructove behavior around his family, then she can choose to stay at home because he will not subject his family to her choice of destructive behavior.

That is not abandonment, yet jld classified it as such. So thats the part Dug that MEM was explaining.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MEM you just nailed the disconnect. Your actions are accountability. Jld views your accountability as abandonment, which confirms my suspicion that she wasn't intentionally gaslighting.


----------



## MEM2020

And to restate the issue concisely:

This isn't about being my highest priority overall. That is not only true, it's obviously true to both of us. It's 'common knowledge' that that's the case. For the sake of clarity when I ask M2 if it's obvious that she's my highest priority, she unhesitatingly confirms. 

This is about being my highest priority AT ALL TIMES. That is a WHOLE DIFFERENT ISSUE. 





Blossom Leigh said:


> Also, MEM feels if his wife demonstrates unreasonable destructove behavior around his family, then she can choose to stay at home because he will not subject his family to her choice of destructive behavior.
> 
> That is not abandonment, yet jld classified it as such. So thats the part Dug that MEM was explaining.


----------



## jld

Where are you getting gaslighting, Blossom?

The way I see it, I was sharing my thoughts and trying to help MEM understand his wife better, if my perceptions of her are indeed accurate. I was also challenging what I see as his defensiveness. That is really the long and short of my posts today.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> And to restate the issue concisely:
> 
> This isn't about being my highest priority overall. That is not only true, it's obviously true to both of us. It's 'common knowledge' that that's the case. For the sake of clarity when I ask M2 if it's obvious that she's my highest priority, she unhesitatingly confirms.
> 
> This is about being my highest priority AT ALL TIMES. That is a WHOLE DIFFERENT ISSUE.


I understand your sisters are very important to you. I was not asking you to give them up.

I think it is possible to help your wife and them heal the relationship. I was trying to offer you hope, not make you feel guilty.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Where are you getting gaslighting, Blossom?
> 
> The way I see it, I was sharing my thoughts and trying to help MEM understand his wife better, if my perceptions of her are indeed accurate. I was also challenging what I see as his defensiveness. That is really the long and short of my posts today.


I don't believe I will be able to get you to see it. It was in the three questions I had highlighted as having a reaction to.


----------



## MEM2020

I understand. Where we got stuck was - you framed this as me saying something very different than what I actually said. 

I see my sisters about 2 weeks a year. Sometimes together. Others separately. 

Let's consider a scenario in reverse. Somehow I get so cross wise with one of M2's sisters that I no longer wish to be in their company. Nor they in mine. I would expect, no even stronger than that, I would actively encourage M2 to visit that sister without me. 

M2's behavior towards ALL my external relationships is the same. She tolerates them, even seems outwardly ok with them - until - suddenly she gets twisted. 

It's like the toddler with a toy. You ask them to share it and they reply: Mine. All mine. 

The first half of that response is fine. It's the 'All mine' aspect to it that is draining. 

Especially so - because our pair bond is so extremely strong. If you watch us together - immersed - laughing - constantly touching - grooming - having sex. Strangers often ask if we are newly weds. 





jld said:


> I understand your sisters are very important to you. I was not asking you to give them up.
> 
> I think it is possible to help your wife and them heal the relationship. I was trying to offer you hope, not make you feel guilty.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I don't believe I will be able to get you to see it. It was in the three questions I had highlighted as having a reaction to.


My understanding of gaslighting is knowing the truth, but promoting falsehood anyway. For example, someone is having an affair, but when their spouse asks, tries to make them think there is no affair going on.

I have reactions to posts, too. One thing I have learned is that my reaction is just my reaction. It does not necessarily signal absolute truth or absolute falsehood.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Jld, you are trying to get MEM to facilitate the relationship more than he is between his wife and his sister and he is trying to tell you he already is facilitating it and his choice of facilitation is holding his wife accountable for her behavior. He is causing her to consider taking on the remaining facilitation of it.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Jld, you are trying to get MEM to facilitate the relationship more than he is between his wife and his sister and he is trying to tell you he already is facilitating it and his choice of facilitation is holding his wife accountable for her behavior. He is causing her to consider taking on the remaining facilitation of it.


Is it working, MEM?


----------



## MEM2020

Blossom,
Well said. 

JLD,
Our most recent trip is a perfect example. M2 volunteered that she was feeling jealous. I wrapped her in a reassuring physical and psychological bear hug and thanked her for telling me. 

I ALSO gently pointed out that it's dangerous to poke my sister - the way she does. That if she continued doing so, eventually she'd get a really bad reaction. 

You ought to go find the thread where I described all this. I am comfident you won't find verbiage even close to that you attributed to me. 





Blossom Leigh said:


> Jld, you are trying to get MEM to facilitate the relationship more than he is between his wife and his sister and he is trying to tell you he already is facilitating it and his choice of facilitation is holding his wife accountable for her behavior. He is causing her to consider taking on the remaining facilitation of it.


----------



## Duguesclin

MEM11363 said:


> Dug,
> If you can't see the difference between what I said, and how JLD portrays it, I can't help you.
> 
> On a related note:
> I say: JLD is portraying me as an aggressor you claim I said: abuser
> 
> Dug - aggressor and abuser aren't synonyms.
> 
> And yes - in my opinion - JLD is portraying me inaccurately.
> 
> She framing this as a real case of abandonment instead of what it really is: accountability
> 
> My sister isn't jealous. Nor is she hard to get on with. If M2 blows up their relationship - she's blown up THEIR relationship. Not mine.


MEM, I used the wrong word. I should have used aggressor. I agree with you.

What JLD is trying to make you understand is how your wife may think. It is not about whether you or she are right or wrong. it is about understanding each other.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Blossom,
> Well said.
> 
> JLD,
> Our most recent trip is a perfect example. M2 volunteered that she was feeling jealous. I wrapped her in a reassuring physical and psychological bear hug and thanked her for telling me.
> 
> I ALSO gently pointed out that it's dangerous to poke my sister - the way she does. That if she continued doing so, eventually she'd get a really bad reaction.
> 
> You ought to go find the thread where I described all this. I am comfident you won't find verbiage even close to that you attributed to me.


I am not sure what I attributed to you. As I recall it, I was telling you what I thought *she* might think.

Look, MEM, I was trying to help you. Do you remember making post #426, saying you wanted to understand her better? That was the focus of my efforts today, to the best of my limited ability considering I don't even know her.

MEM, are you thinking that I am passing judgment on you? Is that what this is all about?

I thought this was about understanding your wife better.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> My understanding of gaslighting is knowing the truth, but promoting falsehood anyway. For example, someone is having an affair, but when their spouse asks, tries to make them think there is no affair going on.
> 
> I have reactions to posts, too. One thing I have learned is that my reaction is just my reaction. It does not necessarily signal absolute truth or absolute falsehood.


Well, sort if, but that is closer to flat out lying. Gaslighting is more along the lines of trying to make the other person doubt their own perception of reality. To me your questions were doing that, though albeit, unintentionally. 

Yes we have our own triggers and I process mine on my own, but I also don't let it stop me from calling someone out.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I am not sure what I attributed to you. As I recall it, I was telling you what I thought *she* might think.
> 
> Look, MEM, I was trying to help you. Do you remember making post #426, saying you wanted to understand her better? That was the focus of my efforts today, to the best of my limited ability considering I don't even know her.
> 
> MEM, are you thinking that I am passing judgment on you? Is that what this is all about?
> 
> I thought this was about understanding your wife better.


Wow... I dont know how you are going to answer this one MEM


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Well, sort if, but that is closer to flat out lying. Gaslighting is more along the lines of trying to make the other person doubt their own perception of reality. To me your questions were doing that, though albeit, unintentionally.
> 
> Yes we have our own triggers and I process mine on my own, but I also don't let it stop me from calling someone out.


There was no gaslighting from my end. There was an effort to share what she might be thinking, and to ask him to look at things from that pov. I thought that could help him.

But ultimately it is up to him. It is his marriage.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> There was no gaslighting from my end. There was an effort to share what she might be thinking, and to ask him to look at things from that pov. I thought that could help him.
> 
> But ultimately it is up to him. It is his marriage.


Jld, I fully comprehend your attempt to help him and the pov you were advocating. That is not quite the issue I highlighted. Those three questions I first quoted when I shared my visceral reaction is the moment I saw gaslight territory. I'm not highlighting your entire approach, just at the end of it.


----------



## Marduk

Duguesclin said:


> But somehow she is hurting MEM, Blossom and you (although not in this thread). I am trying to understand.
> 
> On what MEM quoted, where does he get she is portraying him as an abuser and his wife as sympathetic?


_Sigh._

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

― Upton Sinclair


----------



## jld

jld said:


> Do you feel misunderstood? That too much is being asked of you? That it is just unfair?
> 
> Do you think maybe she feels that way, too?
> 
> We don't have to talk about it if you would rather not. I understand it may be sensitive territory. We all have that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Blossom, this is the one, right?

The questions were my understanding based on what he said. As I was writing them, it occurred to me that his wife might be feeling the same things. That is why I asked him that.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> _Sigh._
> 
> "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
> 
> ― Upton Sinclair


No, we really do not get you.


----------



## ReturntoZero

marduk said:


> _Sigh._
> 
> "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
> 
> ― Upton Sinclair


LOL


----------



## ReturntoZero

jld said:


> No, we really do not get you.


Speak for yourself.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Blossom, this is the one, right?
> 
> The questions were my understanding based on what he said. As I was writing them, it occurred to me that his wife might be feeling the same things. That is why I asked him that.


I get that you feel completely in the clear here.

I do not agree and put voice to it.

That is all.

Its up to you to soul search.


----------



## jld

ReturntoZero said:


> Speak for yourself.


I was speaking for Dug and myself.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I get that you feel completely in the clear here.
> 
> I do not agree and put voice to it.
> 
> That is all.
> 
> Its up to you to soul search.


I know *my* conscience is clear.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I know *my* conscience is clear.


Interesting you chose to word it that way as if mine is not. 

Was that your intention?


----------



## jld

Look, MEM, I was trying to help you. If you don't want my help, just let me know.

I would appreciate your addressing your post #426, though. It is what motivated this whole exchange.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Interesting you chose to word it that way as if mine is not.
> 
> Was that your intention?


That was not my intention. 

I do know what it feels like to have your motives questioned, though. Even when you are just trying to help someone.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> That was not my intention.
> 
> I do know what it feels like to have your motives questioned, though. Even when you are just trying to help someone.


Good, glad I asked.

I never doubted you were trying to help even if you slipped into an unsavory technique (imo). I felt you would appreciate the feedback. Its why I have been careful in speaking with you on it.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Good, glad I asked.
> 
> I never doubted you were trying to help even if you slipped into an unsavory technique (imo). I felt you would appreciate the feedback. Its why I have been careful in speaking with you on it.


I appreciate your feedback, even if I disagree with it. 

I am withdrawing from this effort now. I gave it my best. Maybe others can do better.


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM11363 said:


> Dug,
> If you can't see the difference between what I said, and how JLD portrays it, I can't help you.
> 
> On a related note:
> I say: JLD is portraying me as an aggressor you claim I said: abuser
> 
> Dug - aggressor and abuser aren't synonyms.
> 
> And yes - in my opinion - JLD is portraying me inaccurately.
> 
> She framing this as a real case of abandonment instead of what it really is: accountability
> 
> My sister isn't jealous. Nor is she hard to get on with. If M2 blows up their relationship - she's blown up THEIR relationship. Not mine.


I know I am late, but accountability is another trigger for her.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> That was not my intention.
> 
> I do know what it feels like to have your motives questioned, though. Even when you are just trying to help someone.


Guilty as charged. Meaning, me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> No, we really do not get you.


Do you want to, if that causes discomfort?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReturntoZero

marduk said:


> Do you want to, if that causes discomfort?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Most don't.


----------



## sumij

It sounds like there needs to be more open communication. You can start by telling your wife you feel that you're both unhappy right now and would like to explore ways to address her concerns. But I'd also state you want to do it in a respectful way. Perhaps you could both write down lists (when you're alone) stating what you would like to have happen in an ideal situation. Listen to her concerns. She might, in fact, have a low libido as was mentioned earlier. 

One of the major differences between men and women is what drives us. Just as sex is hard wired into men as a survival mechanism for the species, "connection" is wired into women. It's also a means of survival for women to work together within the community - raising children, caring for the elderly in the family. This goes back to the stone ages and is in our DNA. So, if you don't connect with your wife, she's not going to want to have sex with you. End of story. Neither men or women can help this aspect of themselves. Yes, men want to connect on a certain level, but it's not the same driving need as women have. It's as intense for us as it sex is for men. The same holds true in regards to sex. We want sex, but don't have as high of a need.

If you understand this, it might help you in dealing with certain aspects of this situation. You can also ask your wife what would make her feel like you're connecting with her. It might just be a text during the day. 

I'd say though, regaining the trust and respect within the marriage is something to work on. If the two of you can express to each other the level of love you feel for each other, if it still exists, maybe you can then, together, work on a plan to remedy this situation. 

All the best.


----------



## john117

Communication works if both people are able and willing to do it. TAM seems to include lots of unbalanced relationships that are well past communication...


----------



## ReturntoZero

john117 said:


> Communication works if both people are able and willing to do it. TAM seems to include lots of unbalanced relationships that are well past communication...


Talking only works if there's someone to listen.


----------



## ReturntoZero

john117 said:


> Communication works if both people are able and willing to do it. TAM seems to include lots of unbalanced relationships that are well past communication...


TAM is filled to the brim with the best strategies for finding out if someone is "interested" in listening.


----------



## Red Sonja

Another thread de-railed, sorry SAM.

My suggestion is to stop engaging JLD, she is quite adept at "pretending to not understand" and will do so forever.

First, she reframes/rewords MEM’s issue with M2 using over-the-top language, thereby adding things to the issue that were never there in the first place. This was done to steer the conversation in the direction of a point that she wanted to make for her own reasons.

Second, she proceeds with denying that she did any of it.

The first is manipulation, the second is gas-lighting. You may form your own opinion on any “intent” of her actions but personally I think she knows exactly what she is doing.

*Let's get back to helping Sam.*


----------



## jld

Red Sonja said:


> Another thread de-railed, sorry SAM.
> 
> My suggestion is to stop engaging JLD, she is quite adept at "pretending to not understand" and will do so forever.
> 
> First, she reframes/rewords MEM’s issue with M2 using over-the-top language, thereby adding things to the issue that were never there in the first place. This was done to steer the conversation in the direction of a point that she wanted to make for her own reasons.
> 
> Second, she proceeds with denying that she did any of it.
> 
> The first is manipulation, the second is gas-lighting. You may form your own opinion on any “intent” of her actions but personally I think she knows exactly what she is doing.
> 
> *Let's get back to helping Sam.*


I completely disagree, and I consider all of that a personal attack on my character.

Yes, back to Sam.


----------



## pidge70

Red Sonja said:


> Another thread de-railed, sorry SAM.
> 
> My suggestion is to stop engaging JLD, she is quite adept at "pretending to not understand" and will do so forever.
> 
> First, she reframes/rewords MEM’s issue with M2 using over-the-top language, thereby adding things to the issue that were never there in the first place. This was done to steer the conversation in the direction of a point that she wanted to make for her own reasons.
> 
> Second, she proceeds with denying that she did any of it.
> 
> The first is manipulation, the second is gas-lighting. You may form your own opinion on any “intent” of her actions but personally I think she knows exactly what she is doing.
> 
> *Let's get back to helping Sam.*


:iagree:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

jld said:


> I completely disagree, and I consider all of that a personal attack on my character.
> 
> Yes, back to Sam.


"We're" sorry you feel this way


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I completely disagree, and I consider all of that a personal attack on my character.
> 
> Yes, back to Sam.


Only if it's intentional. And either way, I don't think you intended harm, only willful blindness. 

Which is something Sam's wife seems good at, too. 

Fascinating how that comes full circle. How's things, Sam?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> You just described 99% of the women I've dated.
> 
> All you've said is that she's high maintenance, likely hot, and used to getting her way. Gravy.


I don't understand. 

If it's high maintenance that you want, why be surprised when the women you love want everything their own way?

Most of us know that we don't get everything we want. And some of us can be completely full with what we already have. Those who are used to getting their own way tend to be insatiable.

If you chase high maintenance, you (one) shouldn't be surprised when you are expected to continually jump through flaming hoops.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> Only if it's intentional. And either way, I don't think you intended harm, only willful blindness.
> 
> Which is something Sam's wife seems good at, too.
> 
> Fascinating how that comes full circle. How's things, Sam?


What I see is jld communicating the emotions behind the reactions, to show the motives and rationale behind them.

People who behave badly llke that are not lashing out for no reason. They are lashing out in response to the way they feel. They are, like MEM pointed out earlier, trying to make themselves feel less bad, albeit in a counter-productive way.

Put those feelings into words and, yes, they may sound over the top. But what I think they offer is insight into anxiety, fear, the inner workings of someone who is not at right with the world.

That's what TAM is for, is it not? Insight into these different perspectives?

I think this also gets at the heart of the failure of the alpha leader super hero narrative that is so often spun here. 

MEM, you once said to me that what you were hoping for was to make M2 safe enough to give you raw feed. But the thing is, it isn't fair to demand raw feed and then get all upset and hurt when you get it. Raw feed is raw feed, and it often has hurtful things to say.

Be careful what you ask for.

We are all vulnerable. Cut us and we all bleed. It's all very nice to pretend you (one) are alpha impervious, but IMHO if you deny your authentic vulnerability, it will never be anything more than an act that can easily be seen through, that will serve no purpose but to foster distrust for pretending to be something you are not.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I don't see the glory in clamouring for a raw feed. 

I agree that being careful what you wish for is wise because sometimes that raw feed has resulted in a fist to my face.


----------



## always_alone

Blossom Leigh said:


> I don't see the glory in clamouring for a raw feed.
> 
> I agree that being careful what you wish for is wise because sometimes that raw feed has resulted in a fist to my face.


It's not about glory. Raw feed is about transparency. The advantage is that it lets you know where you stand. It lets you be your authentic self with your partner and to build a real and deep understanding.

The disadvantage is that it can be immensely hurtful. I know what my SO thinks of me, and it isn't always nice. At the same time, I'm not exactly candid about some of my raw feed as I know it would wound my SO greatly. 

So what is better? Sweep all the dirt under the carpet and behave oneself? Or try to truly understand what's going on with your partner, and why they are the way they are?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

always_alone said:


> It's not about glory. Raw feed is about transparency. The advantage is that it lets you know where you stand. It lets you be your authentic self with your partner and to build a real and deep understanding.
> 
> The disadvantage is that it can be immensely hurtful. I know what my SO thinks of me, and it isn't always nice. At the same time, I'm not exactly candid about some of my raw feed as I know it would wound my SO greatly.
> 
> So what is better? Sweep all the dirt under the carpet and behave oneself? Or try to truly understand what's going on with your partner, and why they are the way they are?


There is a middle ground. I've had enough raw feed to last a lifetime. No thank you.I appreciate some mystery, intrigue, provocativeness. Spices things up.


----------



## always_alone

Blossom Leigh said:


> There is a middle ground. I've had enough raw feed to last a lifetime. No thank you.I appreciate some mystery, intrigue, provocativeness. Spices things up.


Yes, of course. But we are talking about Sam and Sam's wife (and others in similar situations). Now maybe you would advise Sam's wife to keep her "mystery", but then she lashes out at Sam instead of communicating with him. Maybe you would advise him to keep his "mystery" to spice things up. But then he is risking provoking the very anxiety that is causing him so much grief on the process.

At any rate, I agree that there is a middle ground. But if you are actually attempting to understand someone, raw feed can be immensely useful.


----------



## Evinrude58

I'm hoping Sam hasn't posted lately because he's on vacation having a great time and boning his pretty wife every night. What's so dang hard about all this? She likes being taken places and doing fun things spending quality time with Sam. It may be as simple as giving her something to look forward to regularly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

always_alone said:


> Yes, of course. But we are talking about Sam and Sam's wife (and others in similar situations). Now maybe you would advise Sam's wife to keep her "mystery", but then she lashes out at Sam instead of communicating with him. Maybe you would advise him to keep his "mystery" to spice things up. But then he is risking provoking the very anxiety that is causing him so much grief on the process.
> 
> At any rate, I agree that there is a middle ground. But if you are actually attempting to understand someone, raw feed can be immensely useful.


There is a balance between transparency and abuse. I would advise her to be transparent while not being abusive. I would advise him to be selective with his transparency until she demonstrates being responsible with his personal information and proves trustworthy with it. It is a risk to be transparent to persons who have proven to have an abusive bent.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> I don't understand.
> 
> If it's high maintenance that you want, why be surprised when the women you love want everything their own way?
> 
> Most of us know that we don't get everything we want. And some of us can be completely full with what we already have. Those who are used to getting their own way tend to be insatiable.
> 
> If you chase high maintenance, you (one) shouldn't be surprised when you are expected to continually jump through flaming hoops.


I'm not surprised.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> It's not about glory. Raw feed is about transparency. The advantage is that it lets you know where you stand. It lets you be your authentic self with your partner and to build a real and deep understanding.
> 
> The disadvantage is that it can be immensely hurtful. I know what my SO thinks of me, and it isn't always nice. At the same time, I'm not exactly candid about some of my raw feed as I know it would wound my SO greatly.
> 
> So what is better? Sweep all the dirt under the carpet and behave oneself? Or try to truly understand what's going on with your partner, and why they are the way they are?


What's better than a raw feed?

Oh, I dunno, maybe being a grown up and thinking before you do or say something you'll later regret.

The trouble with 'raw feed' thinking is that we can all be very nasty people in the moment.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> What's better than a raw feed?
> 
> Oh, I dunno, maybe being a grown up and thinking before you do or say something you'll later regret.
> 
> The trouble with 'raw feed' thinking is that we can all be very nasty people in the moment.


Well, yes sure. In a perfect world, we would all know exactly what to say and be able to say it in a way so as not to threaten or hurt another person.

But, oh wait, some of our genuine authentic feelings *are* hurtful, and it matters not how we express them. No matter what, they will hurt.

Now, we can just sweep all of those under the rug, which is what I've seen you advise men to do to alpha themselves up. But then what happens? You have a bunch of hurt people with no way to express that except on an anonymous Internet forum. 

And then they start imposing "consequences" and dreaming up grand heroic narratives of their leadership. But their pain and confusion is never resolved.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

always_alone said:


> Well, yes sure. In a perfect world, we would all know exactly what to say and be able to say it in a way so as not to threaten or hurt another person.
> 
> But, oh wait, some of our genuine authentic feelings *are* hurtful, and it matters not how we express them. No matter what, they will hurt.
> 
> Now, we can just sweep all of those under the rug, which is what I've seen you advise men to do to alpha themselves up. But then what happens? You have a bunch of hurt people with no way to express that except on an anonymous Internet forum.
> 
> And then they start imposing "consequences" and dreaming up grand heroic narratives of their leadership. But their pain and confusion is never resolved.


You are mixing up a bunch of concepts to make your point.

Thus causing it to be inaccurate.


----------



## always_alone

Blossom Leigh said:


> There is a balance between transparency and abuse. I would advise her to be transparent while not being abusive. I would advise him to be selective with his transparency until she demonstrates being responsible with his personal information and proves trustworthy with it. It is a risk to be transparent to persons who have proven to have an abusive bent.


IMHO, everyone should simply walk away from abuse. No ifs, ands, or buts.

But I also see abuse and transparency as completely different things. Abuse is not transparency, rather, it is an attempt to cover up the real feelings, to pretend they don't exist, and wrap them in an illusion of power and control.

Transparency exposes vulnerability, abuse lies about it.


----------



## always_alone

Blossom Leigh said:


> You are mixing up a bunch of concepts to make your point.
> 
> Thus causing it to be inaccurate.


Care to explain? 

Look at what is happening on this thread. The men here really seem to want to convey their hurt and wounds; they are showing their real vulnerabilities. But they are doing it on a forum, not in their own relationships, because they feel they must keep the mantle of control to "manage" their wives.

Real strength, real power, IMHO, can admit to its vulnerabilities. True leadership doesn't manage people. It honors them.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> What's better than a raw feed?
> 
> Oh, I dunno, maybe being a grown up and thinking before you do or say something you'll later regret. *Yes, speaking the truth in love*
> 
> The trouble with 'raw feed' thinking is that we can all be very nasty people in the moment. *Easily*





always_alone said:


> Well, yes sure. In a perfect world, we would all know exactly what to say and be able to say it in a way so as not to threaten or hurt another person. *The responsibility to speak the truth in love rests on the speaker. The responsibility to hear the truth in love rests on solely on the hearer.*
> 
> But, oh wait, some of our genuine authentic feelings *are* hurtful, and it matters not how we express them. No matter what, they will hurt. *It does matter how truth is spoken. It needs to be from a heart of love and not an attitude of abuse. Best they hurt from the pure truth and a heart of love than truth colored by an abusive attitude. We cannot own their reaction, but we can do our part to speak that truth in love. *
> 
> Now, we can just sweep all of those under the rug, which is what I've seen you advise men to do to alpha themselves up.*aka healthy detachment* But then what happens? You have a bunch of hurt people with no way to express that except on an anonymous Internet forum.
> 
> And then they start imposing "consequences" and dreaming up grand heroic narratives of their leadership. But their pain and confusion is never resolved.





Blossom Leigh said:


> You are mixing up a bunch of concepts to make your point.
> 
> Thus causing it to be inaccurate.





always_alone said:


> Care to explain?
> 
> Look at what is happening on this thread. The men here really seem to want to convey their hurt and wounds; they are showing their real vulnerabilities. But they are doing it on a forum, not in their own relationships, because they feel they must keep the mantle of control to "manage" their wives.
> 
> Real strength, real power, IMHO, can admit to its vulnerabilities. True leadership doesn't manage people. It honors them.


Many of these guys HAVE expressed their vulnerability in these relationships, the women are deaf to it, thus the advice to detach.


True leadership recognizes that honoring others does not preclude dishonoring self, but actually includes it.

Thus... the use of healthy boundaries...

Boundaries are guidelines, rules or limits that a person creates to identify for themselves what are reasonable, safe and permissible ways for other people to behave around them and how they will respond when someone steps outside those limits


----------



## GettingIt_2

Sam, like all of us, has to figure out how to navigate his particular situation. Both transparency and healthy boundaries are important in a marriage, but, like everything else, sometimes a couple have different ideas on how much of both they 1. want to give to their partner and 2. want to get from their partner. 

What is desirable in the areas of transparency and boundaries for an individual in a long term relationship often has to do with how those things have functioned or not functioned well in the relationship in the past. 

There isn't a magic formula out there that is going to work for everyone. Learn how to talk about both with your spouse, and learn to accept that their needs in the areas of transparency and boundaries are likely not going to line up perfectly with yours.

Hell, what I want from my husband changes almost daily and often depends on the issue at hand. I've learned that the #1 most important thing I can do is ASK HIM FOR WHAT I NEED and not use my behavior to try and influence him/get him to read my mind. 

It's not a gender-specific skill: learn to ask nicely and don't get pissy/b1tchy. No one likes a pissy/b1tchy spouse.


----------



## Chuck71

Ey yo Sammah.... hows yousa doin? Been a tinkin' bowts yu. Hope tings are owkay.

"I think" Sam may fear his thread turning into Grids for 75-100 pages. He did post on it I believe.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> Well, yes sure. In a perfect world, we would all know exactly what to say and be able to say it in a way so as not to threaten or hurt another person.
> 
> But, oh wait, some of our genuine authentic feelings *are* hurtful, and it matters not how we express them. No matter what, they will hurt.
> 
> Now, we can just sweep all of those under the rug, which is what I've seen you advise men to do to alpha themselves up. But then what happens? You have a bunch of hurt people with no way to express that except on an anonymous Internet forum.
> 
> And then they start imposing "consequences" and dreaming up grand heroic narratives of their leadership. But their pain and confusion is never resolved.


That's not at all what I'm talking about. 

Examples of raw feedback from women in my life:
Throwing a frying pan at my head
Slapping me over and over
Punching me
Calling me names
Running out the door to another guy
Being told that I'm hated
Being told that I'm useless/nothing/a waste of time 
Leaving and coming back random hours or days later 

In all those things there's a message, sure. I just didn't care what it was. In this world, both men and women need to be grown ups, and if that means it's hard to have to think about what you're trying to say before you do it, that's too bad. 

Nobody exists to be emotional punching bags just so that someone gets to express their feelings. 

My feelings go deep and dark like everyone else. But I don't let them out with wild abandon and call it communication.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Now my grandma explained grandpa's baldness on the fact he was mean to her and she sat a skillet 

on his head to make his hair fall out!

God I wished they did not die so young...... I really missed out.....


----------



## SadSamIAm

The cycle is complete! It is the same as what has been happening for many years. We get along great for a few days, we have conflict for few weeks and then we make up and things go good again for a few days. This was probably one of the longest cycles as we fought for a couple of months in between.

The secret for me now is how I deal with it when she starts to cause conflict over the next few days. I need to change both what I do and how I react to it. I know it will be coming.

We spent the weekend together. Friday night we went to a movie. Was nice when part way through the movie she cuddled up next to me. It was a late movie so when we got home we just went to sleep. Spent the next morning and part of the afternoon in bed. When I first reached out to her she had a pained look on her face and I jokingly told her I was going to change that pained look on her face into one of pleasure. She actually smiled and we had a great time. Went shopping in the afternoon for a bit. Bought a couple of suits that I need for an upcoming conference. Then I played 'pickle ball' with a few other couples while my wife continued shopping. She didn't play as she has an injured elbow. She bought me a couple of pairs of shoes, while shopping and was there to watch the last 30 minutes of us playing. Afterwards we went to one of the couples houses for a couple of drinks. 

Sunday morning we got up and went to a Dinner Theater for brunch for Valentines Day. Was a pretty funny play. Was nice that we had a private booth that we could snuggle up together in. Afterwards we went shopping again as we have been looking for ideas to finish one particular wall in our basement. Also went to look at some Lottery Homes. At the end of the day we found some mirrors that we both really liked for another wall in our dining room. We spent the evening watching several episodes of 'Affair' a TV series we have been watching.

Yesterday was a holiday here (Family Day). We spent the morning and part of the afternoon in bed. Went and bought the 7 mirrors we found the day before. We put them up yesterday evening. They are a bunch of mirrors that look like Gears, so they needed to be hung with the gears interlocking. It was fun and a bit challenging to do it together. We are both really happy with how they look.

So we spent the weekend together. A bunch of quality time that I realize now is more important to her than I thought. Sex was great. We talked about booking a holiday in March, but we are going to hold off. We are going back to the condo in the mountains in a couple of weeks and it looks like the kids will be with us the first three nights but we will have the next four alone. 

Like I said at the beginning, the big thing for me is how I react when she gets grumpy about some minor thing. I know it will happen. I need to make sure I keep up with exercising, eating well and communicating with her about things that are going on. 

Thanks everyone for the advice.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> That's not at all what I'm talking about.
> 
> Examples of raw feedback from women in my life:
> Throwing a frying pan at my head
> Slapping me over and over
> Punching me
> Calling me names
> Running out the door to another guy
> Being told that I'm hated
> Being told that I'm useless/nothing/a waste of time
> Leaving and coming back random hours or days later


I agree absolutely that we should not ever set ourselves up to be punching bags for another. As I stated earlier, everyone should walk away from abuse.

But what you describe is not at all what I think of as raw feed. Raw feed is exposing vulnerabilities, it is revealing pain and hurt, not beating on someone to prove how mad you are.

Unfortunately, if "raw feed" isn't heard, it will escalate. When you expose yourself to another, and it becomes clear that you are being dismissed, or your concerns treated as trivial, or if someone is trying to "manage" your feelings or tell you what you should and should not be feeling, then pain and hurt will quickly slip into anger and hatred.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> I agree absolutely that we should not ever set ourselves up to be punching bags for another. As I stated earlier, everyone should walk away from abuse.
> 
> But what you describe is not at all what I think of as raw feed. Raw feed is exposing vulnerabilities, it is revealing pain and hurt, not beating on someone to prove how mad you are.
> 
> Unfortunately, if "raw feed" isn't heard, it will escalate. When you expose yourself to another, and it becomes clear that you are being dismissed, or your concerns treated as trivial, or if someone is trying to "manage" your feelings or tell you what you should and should not be feeling, then pain and hurt will quickly slip into anger and hatred.


Maybe we need to align on what a raw feed is.

Is a raw feed just saying whatever you want to say or doing whatever you want to do?

Or is it just speaking the truth plainly about how you feel?

I ask because after this post I think what you are saying and what someone like JLD is saying are two totally different things.


----------



## always_alone

Blossom Leigh said:


> Many of these guys HAVE expressed their vulnerability in these relationships, the women are deaf to it, thus the advice to detach.
> 
> 
> True leadership recognizes that honoring others does not preclude dishonoring self, but actually includes it.
> 
> Thus... the use of healthy boundaries...


I don't disagree. However, I would add that it is equally important that they are also *hearing* the vulnerabilities of their partner. 

No one here is suggesting that Sam or anyone should not look after themselves. Merely to acknowledge their contribution to the dynamic.

It is possible that Sam's wife is just a complete a$$hole that likes to belittle people and treat them like crap. More likely, though, she is acting that way because she is not feeling validated or heard. Her hurt has transformed itself into anger, just as he let's his hurt translate into anger.

Given that, I submit that detachment isn't necessarily the best strategy, as it can reinforce the insecurity and hurt at the base of these angry reactions, rather than soothe it.

But let me be absolutely clear: I am *not* saying that anyone should wait around to be punched, or called names, or belittled. But it is worthwhile trying to understand how that person came to that point (assuming of course that you actually care about them)


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> Maybe we need to align on what a raw feed is.
> 
> Is a raw feed just saying whatever you want to say or doing whatever you want to do?
> 
> Or is it just speaking the truth plainly about how you feel?
> 
> I ask because after this post I think what you are saying and what someone like JLD is saying are two totally different things.


I don't think what I am saying is so different than what jld was saying. She can correct me if I'm wrong, but my take on what she was putting forward earlier was very much about articulating the feelings behind the lashing out, that is, on her best guess (given that Sam's (or MEMs) wife isn't here), this is the type of hurt and fear behind their reactions. And what I take from JLD's recommemdation is that understanding this emotion is a first step to identifying the real problem and potential solutions. 

Raw feed isn't just saying and doing what you want, but that's close. To my mind, it is expressing one's authentic emotions (hurt, pain, vulnerability, anxiety, insecurity, fear) in an unfiltered way. That is, maybe you don't have a carefully crafted poetic verse that will express your needs while making your partner feel good. You just let it all hang out, as true to yourself as you can be.


----------



## john117

The expectation game went to overtime and Sam was able to score some needed points . 

The trick is how to separate the intimacy part from the extravaganza of the three day weekend. 

In other words, not about X, but x+1 (lower case x: not extravaganza) and even more important, x+2.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> I don't think what I am saying is so different than what jld was saying. She can correct me if I'm wrong, but my take on what she was putting forward earlier was very much about articulating the feelings behind the lashing out, that is, on her best guess (given that Sam's (or MEMs) wife isn't here), this is the type of hurt and fear behind their reactions. And what I take from JLD's recommemdation is that understanding this emotion is a first step to identifying the real problem and potential solutions.
> 
> Raw feed isn't just saying and doing what you want, but that's close. To my mind, it is expressing one's authentic emotions (hurt, pain, vulnerability, anxiety, insecurity, fear) in an unfiltered way. That is, maybe you don't have a carefully crafted poetic verse that will express your needs while making your partner feel good. You just let it all hang out, as true to yourself as you can be.


Can you keep going?

If you feel like your husband is being an ******* because he's being hurtful, do you call him an *******?

Or do you say that you feel he's being hurtful?

I ask because in my life I've gotten far more of the former and far less of the latter.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

always_alone said:


> I don't disagree. However, I would add that it is equally important that they are also *hearing* the vulnerabilities of their partner.
> 
> No one here is suggesting that Sam or anyone should not look after themselves. Merely to acknowledge their contribution to the dynamic.
> 
> It is possible that Sam's wife is just a complete a$$hole that likes to belittle people and treat them like crap. More likely, though, she is acting that way because she is not feeling validated or heard. Her hurt has transformed itself into anger, just as he let's his hurt translate into anger.
> 
> Given that, I submit that detachment isn't necessarily the best strategy, as it can reinforce the insecurity and hurt at the base of these angry reactions, rather than soothe it.
> 
> But let me be absolutely clear: I am *not* saying that anyone should wait around to be punched, or called names, or belittled. But it is worthwhile trying to understand how that person came to that point (assuming of course that you actually care about them)


Then we are on the same page. And sometimes temporarily detaching in order to figure out how to proceed is valuable. Detach strategically "for" the relationship. It also allows assessment time to determine a salvageable relationship from one that is not. Not all angry reactions are created equal and I think it is helpful to discern which reactions are pathological and which ones are not.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

always_alone said:


> I don't think what I am saying is so different than what jld was saying. She can correct me if I'm wrong, but my take on what she was putting forward earlier was very much about articulating the feelings behind the lashing out, that is, on her best guess (given that Sam's (or MEMs) wife isn't here), this is the type of hurt and fear behind their reactions. And what I take from JLD's recommemdation is that understanding this emotion is a first step to identifying the real problem and potential solutions.
> 
> *Raw feed isn't just saying and doing what you want*, but that's close. *To my mind, it is expressing one's authentic emotions (hurt, pain, vulnerability, anxiety, insecurity, fear) in an unfiltered way. That is, maybe you don't have a carefully crafted poetic verse that will express your needs while making your partner feel good. You just let it all hang out, as true to yourself as you can *be.




Correct.

.... as you can be without being abusive.

I am in agreement with you on this.

I do not view what you are saying and what jld was doing as the same.


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> Then we are on the same page. And sometimes temporarily detaching in order to figure out how to proceed is valuable. Detach strategically "for" the relationship. It also allows assessment time to determine a salvageable relationship from one that is not. Not all angry reactions are created equal and I think it is helpful to discern which reactions are pathological and which ones are not.


True. 

And I literally cannot count the number of "unfiltered responses" I've gotten in relationships (including my wife) where a tremendous amount of anger has been expressed at me...

When 5 minutes of introspection would have yeilded the fact that I wasn't the source of the anger at all. 

It's far too easy to assume that if you're having feelings around another person, that the person you're around is the source of those feelings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> True.
> 
> And I literally cannot count the number of "unfiltered responses" I've gotten in relationships (including my wife) where a tremendous amount of anger has been expressed at me...
> 
> When 5 minutes of introspection would have yeilded the fact that I wasn't the source of the anger at all.
> 
> It's far too easy to assume that if you're having feelings around another person, that the person you're around is the source of those feelings.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. My H and I both used to do that to each other not realizing I was an old tape fueling that trigger. When we realized we had old tapes running, we became very intentional about self assessment. We care to not hold each other hostage to damage put there from before we met. At the same time we value accuracy in emotions. We try to be as accurate as possible when dealing with each other and our son, otherwise issues are not authentically handled and resolved.


----------



## john117

Those who crave the raw feed may not like the results. 

Since I'm not concerned about my ghost of a marriage any more i have no problem providing 100% raw feedback about the status of the marriage or my own thoughts. 

It's not helping, but at the same time it's not hurting. Think of it as the last few nails. I can see how she's holding on thinking it will pass, but I have made it quite clear where we are headed. 

Such a raw feed in a healthy marriage would not be quite as welcome.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

john117 said:


> Those who crave the raw feed may not like the results.
> 
> Since I'm not concerned about my ghost of a marriage any more i have no problem providing 100% raw feedback about the status of the marriage or my own thoughts.
> 
> It's not helping, but at the same time it's not hurting. Think of it as the last few nails. I can see how she's holding on thinking it will pass, but I have made it quite clear where we are headed.
> 
> Such a raw feed in a healthy marriage would not be quite as welcome.


That must mean she doesn't think you will leave. It will be interesting to see how she reacts when she realizes you are serious.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> Can you keep going?
> 
> If you feel like your husband is being an ******* because he's being hurtful, do you call him an *******?
> 
> Or do you say that you feel he's being hurtful?
> 
> I ask because in my life I've gotten far more of the former and far less of the latter.


I don't call people names. I just don't. I may, however, if very frustrated, tell him to fvck off. I will call him out on his bad behaviour. I will tell him to stop doing X, whatever X may be.

I have also muttered some things under my breath and out of earshot that absolutely capture *what I am feeling at the moment*. This will include calling him a fvcking a$$hole, as well as expressions of hatred.

I understand these feelings because I have them. And I understand where they come from and what I need to soothe them. But all of this took practice and even then, I'm not that good at it. And ultimately, an awful lot of it has to do with being heard and understood.

I once showed him something that I wrote when I was very, very mad at him, and I could see how much it hurt him to read those words. It was knowing that I could hurt him that made me see that I need to be careful when and how I do so. Up til then, I really didn't think he cared all that much.


----------



## john117

Blossom Leigh said:


> That must mean she doesn't think you will leave. It will be interesting to see how she reacts when she realizes you are serious.


I know. Makes it more fun 

I heard thru DD2 over the holidays she thinks she can take her 401k and make a run for it to her birth country of Frigidistan. DD even told her that this only happens in movies, still....


----------



## Blossom Leigh

john117 said:


> I know. Makes it more fun
> 
> I heard thru DD2 over the holidays she thinks she can take her 401k and make a run for it to her birth country of Frigidistan. DD even told her that this only happens in movies, still....


Hey she had her chance 

Not like you didn't warn her.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> I don't call people names. I just don't. I may, however, if very frustrated, tell him to fvck off. I will call him out on his bad behaviour. I will tell him to stop doing X, whatever X may be.
> 
> I have also muttered some things under my breath and out of earshot that absolutely capture *what I am feeling at the moment*. This will include calling him a fvcking a$$hole, as well as expressions of hatred.
> 
> I understand these feelings because I have them. And I understand where they come from and what I need to soothe them. But all of this took practice and even then, I'm not that good at it. And ultimately, an awful lot of it has to do with being heard and understood.
> 
> I once showed him something that I wrote when I was very, very mad at him, and I could see how much it hurt him to read those words. It was knowing that I could hurt him that made me see that I need to be careful when and how I do so. Up til then, I really didn't think he cared all that much.


I'm lost. 

Paragraph 1 contradicts paragraph 2 if you realize that spouses pick up on a lot more than you may realize. 

How does your raw feed differ now that he's read that and he was hurt by it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Duguesclin

marduk said:


> That's not at all what I'm talking about.
> 
> Examples of raw feedback from women in my life:
> Throwing a frying pan at my head
> Slapping me over and over
> Punching me
> Calling me names
> Running out the door to another guy
> Being told that I'm hated
> Being told that I'm useless/nothing/a waste of time
> Leaving and coming back random hours or days later
> 
> In all those things there's a message, sure. I just didn't care what it was. In this world, both men and women need to be grown ups, and if that means it's hard to have to think about what you're trying to say before you do it, that's too bad.
> 
> Nobody exists to be emotional punching bags just so that someone gets to express their feelings.
> 
> My feelings go deep and dark like everyone else. But I don't let them out with wild abandon and call it communication.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That physical stuff is not raw feed and it is certainly not what JLD means by raw feed.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

SadSamIAm said:


> Went and bought the 7 mirrors we found the day before. We put them up yesterday evening. They are a bunch of mirrors that look like Gears, so they needed to be hung with the gears interlocking. It was fun and a bit challenging to do it together. We are both really happy with how they look.


Don't have any advice to offer, but I'm curious about the mirrors. They sound neat and I have some empty walls. Where did you get them? What do they look like?


----------



## Marduk

Duguesclin said:


> That physical stuff is not raw feed and it is certainly not what JLD means by raw feed.


What about yelling?

What about ranting?

Is there name calling? Are there threats or ultimatums?

What is it then?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

It's called BPD  nothing to it!


----------



## SadSamIAm

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Don't have any advice to offer, but I'm curious about the mirrors. They sound neat and I have some empty walls. Where did you get them? What do they look like?


Attention Grabber Wall Decor With Gear Like Rounded Wall Mirrors Added Above Side Table With Classic Table Lamps - Arpirates Design

We got them from a place called Ashey Furniture. I think they are produced by Mercana (called Sundance).


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> I'm lost.
> 
> Paragraph 1 contradicts paragraph 2 if you realize that spouses pick up on a lot more than you may realize.
> 
> How does your raw feed differ now that he's read that and he was hurt by it?


I don't see it as a contradiction. I wouldn't call someone an idiot, but I might observe that they have a consistent pattern of behaving idiotically. It isn't name-calling if you don't actually call someone names is it?

And no, my raw feed systems are pretty consistent. I've always been one to mostly keep stuff to myself unless it's really bugging me. Even then I don't always offer feedback on it, although I also can't act happy when I am not, so if someone is paying attention, they might notice something is up.

I will say that I never had any of those particularly extreme feelings (towards him) until I was absolutely gutted by him. They are all 100% rooted in my hurt over his treatment of me. I can also say that he has one thing in common with you: he doesn't think he's done anything wrong, and likes to think it's always about something else.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> I don't see it as a contradiction. I wouldn't call someone an idiot, but I might observe that they have a consistent pattern of behaving idiotically. It isn't name-calling if you don't actually call someone names is it?


That's a pretty fine line, isn't it? Are there more constructive ways to say the same thing?


> And no, my raw feed systems are pretty consistent. I've always been one to mostly keep stuff to myself unless it's really bugging me. Even then I don't always offer feedback on it, although I also can't act happy when I am not, so if someone is paying attention, they might notice something is up.


I can understand that.



> I will say that I never had any of those particularly extreme feelings (towards him) until I was absolutely gutted by him. They are all 100% rooted in my hurt over his treatment of me. I can also say that he has one thing in common with you: he doesn't think he's done anything wrong, and likes to think it's always about something else.


That's a pretty blanket statement towards both your husband and me, isn't it? I mean, it may be right a lot of the time, but also wrong a lot of the time -- and comes off like you're always right in your judgement.

I don't say that to start some kind of flame war, I say that to see if it resonates with the way that he responded to it. I know my wife also likes to play the "I'm always right game" and then turn around and point fingers that I always act like I'm right, too. Which may be true, but it can also be a response to a trigger. Which in itself may be triggered.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> That's a pretty fine line, isn't it? Are there more constructive ways to say the same thing?


The point is not to be constructive, which is why I don't say anything aloud. It is simple raw feed: expression of emotion at the moment.




marduk said:


> That's a pretty blanket statement towards both your husband and me, isn't it? I mean, it may be right a lot of the time, but also wrong a lot of the time -- and comes off like you're always right in your judgement.



I'm wrong lots, and have no problem admitting it. But one thing I am not wrong about is my own feelings. And while my SO might like to think he hasn't hurt me, the fact is that he *has* hurt me. Maybe not intentionally, but nonetheless, there it is. 

And while I don't even know you, and so could much more easily be completely wrong about your dynamics, you often seem to be placing blame on your wife, on "high maintenance" women generally, on just about everything but how you might have contributed.

Don't you find it the least bit surprising how often you seem to have women yelling at you, throwing things at you, etc? Yes, clearly you prefer women who are prone to this sort of behaviour, but do you not think you also provoke it? Perhaps deliberately?


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> The point is not to be constructive, which is why I don't say anything aloud. It is simple raw feed: expression of emotion at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm wrong lots, and have no problem admitting it. But one thing I am not wrong about is my own feelings. And while my SO might like to think he hasn't hurt me, the fact is that he *has* hurt me. Maybe not intentionally, but nonetheless, there it is.
> 
> And while I don't even know you, and so could much more easily be completely wrong about your dynamics, you often seem to be placing blame on your wife, on "high maintenance" women generally, on just about everything but how you might have contributed.
> 
> Don't you find it the least bit surprising how often you seem to have women yelling at you, throwing things at you, etc? Yes, clearly you prefer women who are prone to this sort of behaviour, but do you not think you also provoke it? Perhaps deliberately?


That's a deep dark convoluted conversation but I'll leave it at this: I blame only myself for having a history of picking high maintenance women in general and my wife in particular. 

I do think it's fair to say that I'm attracted to difficult hot women -- there's something in the challenge of it -- and in many ways attracted to drama. 

That being said, there have been times where the drama escalates into the realm of abuse. On the flip side, there's plenty of passion going around. 

We are working on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> That's a deep dark convoluted conversation but I'll leave it at this: I blame only myself for having a history of picking high maintenance women in general and my wife in particular.


I submit that you may also want to look at your tendency to want to goad people, and your overall dismissiveness of what they might be feeling.

The combo of high drama plus provoking (or condescension) is like gasoline to flame.

I suspect that you get off on this, but at the same time, it is exactly why the frying pans are flying towards your head. At least, IMHO.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> I submit that you may also want to look at your tendency to want to goad people, and your overall dismissiveness of what they might be feeling.
> 
> The combo of high drama plus provoking (or condescension) is like gasoline to flame.
> 
> I suspect that you get off on this, but at the same time, it is exactly why the frying pans are flying towards your head. At least, IMHO.


That's out of line. 

In marriage number one, I was a totally different guy. I settled into the nice guy role, and she started an affair. 

She ramped up on the bad wife routine hoping I would leave, but didn't. 

And coming from a guy that had an ex wife who honestly did throw (and connect) cast iron fry pans at my head, and a current wife who honestly does feel that name calling is a form of emotional transparency, that's BS. 

Do I deserve an angry wife sometimes because I goad her? Sure. 

Do I derserve the drama I get sometimes? Sure. 

Do I deserve physical or verbal abuse? No. 

And that is what I'm trying to tease out because I want to understand - the fine line with being emotionally transparent on transmission and emotionally abusive on reception.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> .
> 
> Do I deserve physical or verbal abuse? No.
> 
> And that is what I'm trying to tease out because I want to understand - the fine line with being emotionally transparent on transmission and emotionally abusive on reception.


Marduk, I did not mean to imply that you deserve abuse, and I'm sorry if I did. No one deserves to be abused. And it must be stopped.

I was simply trying to point out that you have a certain style of goading that is more likely to inflame than mitigate this type of behaviour. Not saying that it justifies it, just that it is likely contributory.

The trouble with emotional transparency is that it often hurts. It's very hard for lots of people to find the right words to express these sorts of feelings in a useful constructive way. And when something hurts, it's easy to fall into a spiral downwards.

Again, not justifying your wife's version of "emotional transparency", and I think it's great that you are both working on healthier ways of communicating. Insulting is *not* a good or productive way to do it.

At the same time, I also think some of your solutions are also exacerbating the problem because, at least from my perspective, you aren't seeing the real hurt that is promoting your wife's bad behaviour.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> Marduk, I did not mean to imply that you deserve abuse, and I'm sorry if I did. No one deserves to be abused. And it must be stopped.
> 
> I was simply trying to point out that you have a certain style of goading that is more likely to inflame than mitigate this type of behaviour. Not saying that it justifies it, just that it is likely contributory.
> 
> The trouble with emotional transparency is that it often hurts. It's very hard for lots of people to find the right words to express these sorts of feelings in a useful constructive way. And when something hurts, it's easy to fall into a spiral downwards.
> 
> Again, not justifying your wife's version of "emotional transparency", and I think it's great that you are both working on healthier ways of communicating. Insulting is *not* a good or productive way to do it.
> 
> At the same time, I also think some of your solutions are also exacerbating the problem because, at least from my perspective, you aren't seeing the real hurt that is promoting your wife's bad behaviour.


100% agree with everything you've said here, and no need to apologize. 

My question to you stands though, it's the question I wish I could also get answered from JLD but know I never will: when does the value of being transparent to the point of causing pain add value to the relationship, and when does it cross the boundary to damage the relationship for you? When you're in the "transparent emotional transmit" mode, if I can call it that, does that come to mind?

Or is it more "I just need to unleash?"

I ask specifically because I'm really trying to understand my wife's anger, which she is struggling with, and I want to support her on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Does she understand her anger or is it normal for her?


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> when does the value of being transparent to the point of causing pain add value to the relationship, and when does it cross the boundary to damage the relationship for you? When you're in the "transparent emotional transmit" mode, if I can call it that, does that come to mind?
> 
> Or is it more "I just need to unleash?"


IME, it is neither. My goal is not to unleash, nor is it to harm. Nor do I see it as necessarily adding any value. It is just how I feel, nothing more, nothing less. And I am just being who I am, at the moment.

Some people use anger as a weapon or manipulative tool. Some use it as a shield to hide hurt and vulnerable feelings. Sometimes it is irritation and impatience. Lots of things at the root of anger, and I dunno your wife's story. 

For me, though, I don't associate my emotional transparency with anger. I'm pretty sure the negative ones come out as mostly hurt and despair, with a salting of self-loathing.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> 100% agree with everything you've said here, and no need to apologize.
> 
> My question to you stands though, it's the question I wish I could also get answered from JLD but know I never will: when does the value of being transparent to the point of causing pain add value to the relationship, and when does it cross the boundary to damage the relationship for you? When you're in the "transparent emotional transmit" mode, if I can call it that, does that come to mind?
> 
> Or is it more "I just need to unleash?"
> 
> I ask specifically because I'm really trying to understand my wife's anger, which she is struggling with, and I want to support her on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just share everything with Dug. He wants the raw feed, because there is often something in there that would be missed, and is probably the key to the problem, if I had to be careful to speak in a less than transparent way.

I can't imagine being married to someone who could not hear it all, just the way I am feeling it at the moment. Marriage is a complete blending of two souls. Having to be anything but completely oneself must be very stressful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

always_alone said:


> IME, it is neither. My goal is not to unleash, nor is it to harm. Nor do I see it as necessarily adding any value. It is just how I feel, nothing more, nothing less. And I am just being who I am, at the moment.
> 
> Some people use anger as a weapon or manipulative tool. Some use it as a shield to hide hurt and vulnerable feelings. Sometimes it is irritation and impatience. Lots of things at the root of anger, and I dunno your wife's story.
> 
> For me, though, I don't associate my emotional transparency with anger. I'm pretty sure the negative ones come out as mostly hurt and despair, with a salting of self-loathing.


MEM has said that anger is a cover for hurt and fear. If we can look past that anger, to the hurt and fear beneath, we can start to address the true issues, and begin the healing.

It takes a lot of love and inner strength to do that, though. We have to genuinely care about the other person. We also usually have to be willing to be the leader, at least temporarily.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Marduk is speaking logically. He is looking for a clear line, a rule if you will, that does not really exist. Why? Because we are all different, and that line is in a different place for all of us.

JLD is speaking emotionally. Her approach is not geared toward any set line, but rather an ideal.

Can't y'all see this? 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Marduk is speaking logically. He is looking for a clear line, a rule if you will, that does not really exist. Why? Because we are all different, and that line is in a different place for all of us.
> 
> JLD is speaking emotionally. Her approach is not geared toward any set line, but rather an ideal.
> 
> Can't y'all see this?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think Marduk wants to protect himself from hurt. He wants a rule to hold up to his wife that says, Here, this says you cannot hurt me by saying or doing that.

I mostly just speak from my experience with Dug. I think his inner strength makes our marriage pretty easy. He would say that my transparency makes our marriage pretty easy. For sure, a lot of the TAM advice would probably mess up our marriage pretty bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I think Marduk wants to protect himself from hurt. He wants a rule to hold up to his wife that says, Here, this says you cannot hurt me by saying or doing that.
> 
> I mostly just speak from my experience with Dug. I think his inner strength makes our marriage pretty easy. He would say that my transparency makes our marriage pretty easy. For sure, a lot of the TAM advice would probably mess up our marriage pretty bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you want to judge without being called judgemental.

At least, that is what I got from this paragraph.

I also think your line between raw feed and abusive is extremely skewed for men.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I think you want to judge without being called judgemental.
> 
> At least, that is what I got from this paragraph.
> 
> I also think your line between raw feed and abusive is extremely skewed for men.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think we are all judging. And we all have different criteria we judge by. 

We all have different goals, I guess.


----------



## always_alone

farsidejunky said:


> .
> 
> I also think your line between raw feed and abusive is extremely skewed for men.


Why? To me the difference is so obvious, I can't even see why it warrants so much discussion. I really don't get the confusion with abuse.

Do men tend to think that any time someone else is upset, they are being abused? :scratchhead:


----------



## always_alone

jld said:


> I mostly just speak from my experience with Dug. I think his inner strength makes our marriage pretty easy. He would say that my transparency makes our marriage pretty easy. For sure, a lot of the TAM advice would probably mess up our marriage pretty bad.


You also cede a lot of your own power to Dug. Not all women would be willing to do that -- I know I wouldn't.

I think the people who keep wanting to call you abusive aren't seeing that part of the picture.

Also, I completely agree that the standard TAM advice would destroy my relationship too.


----------



## farsidejunky

always_alone said:


> Why? To me the difference is so obvious, I can't even see why it warrants so much discussion. I really don't get the confusion with abuse.


I was being specific to JLD. Please don't insert yourself into an observation that had nothing to do with you and then ask me to argue its merits.




always_alone said:


> Do men tend to think that any time someone else is upset, they are being abused? :scratchhead:


I'm going to tell you a story. I came home from a kickboxing class to find that one of my wife's dog had chewed something up that was still laying on the bedroom floor. This was becoming commonplace with the same dog. I walked to the living room, and told my wife that her dog had chewed up something else, and that it was still laying on the floor. I refused to pick it up.

I got in the shower. A few short moments later, my wife came storming at the entrance to the shower and asked me why I had not picked up what her dog had chewed up. I told her I was no longer willing to pick up after your dog. Her response? She screamed it was disrespectful and took a swing at me. It connected because I was facing the other way.

Now I ask you, is this abuse or raw feed?

My response to her was to tell her that if she laid another finger on me ever again, that I would be calling the cops. End of story.

You see, I posted about this in a social group, and JLD and Dug both told me that enforcing a boundary of her striking me by calling the police was somehow my fault, that I went overboard, that it wasn't really a threat, that I should have just put up with it, and just asked her why she was so upset with me.

Her line for abuse for men is skewed. I do not have near enough interaction with you, A_A, to make that same determination.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> IME, it is neither. My goal is not to unleash, nor is it to harm. Nor do I see it as necessarily adding any value. It is just how I feel, nothing more, nothing less. And I am just being who I am, at the moment.
> 
> Some people use anger as a weapon or manipulative tool. Some use it as a shield to hide hurt and vulnerable feelings. Sometimes it is irritation and impatience. Lots of things at the root of anger, and I dunno your wife's story.
> 
> For me, though, I don't associate my emotional transparency with anger. I'm pretty sure the negative ones come out as mostly hurt and despair, with a salting of self-loathing.


Thanks for this answer. 

I struggle with the neutrality of this. At least upon reception.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> Thanks for this answer.
> 
> I struggle with the neutrality of this. At least upon reception.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you can articulate what you're struggling with, perhaps I can clarify?


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> Marduk is speaking logically. He is looking for a clear line, a rule if you will, that does not really exist. Why? Because we are all different, and that line is in a different place for all of us.
> 
> JLD is speaking emotionally. Her approach is not geared toward any set line, but rather an ideal.
> 
> Can't y'all see this?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Not so much a line but a tipping point. Like is said in Buddhism, for me it's about skillful use vs unskillful use - not a judgement of good or bad but of its utility. 

If an emotional outburst is skillful, the relationship improves. Not in a shallow "let's pretend it improves because I hear you but nothing is going to change" but "I deeply understand and the implications of that understanding yield lasting change."

If it is not skillful, it either gets filtered out upon reception (active listening is a two way street remember) or it causes harm and the degradation or termination of the relationship. 

Skillful use improves two peoples happiness, unskillful use reduces two peoples happiness. 

Especially when you remember that cognitive science tells us that angry outbursts are not cathartic long-term, they yield more anger instead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I was being specific to JLD. Please don't insert yourself into an observation that had nothing to do with you and then ask me to argue its merits.
> 
> I'm going to tell you a story. I came home from a kickboxing class to find that one of my wife's dog had chewed something up that was still laying on the bedroom floor. This was becoming commonplace with the same dog. I walked to the living room, and told my wife that her dog at you have something else, and then it was still laying on the floor. I refused to pick it up.
> 
> I got in the shower. A few short moments later, my wife came storming at the entrance to the shower and asked me why I had not picked up what her dog had chewed up. I told her I was no longer willing to pick up after your dog. Her response? She screamed it was disrespectful and took a swing at me. It connected because I was facing the other way.
> 
> Now I ask you, is this abuse or raw feed?
> 
> My response to her was to tell her that if she laid another finger on me ever again, that I would be calling the cops. End of story.
> 
> You see, I posted about this in a social group, and JLD and Dug both told me that enforcing a boundary of her striking me by calling the police was somehow my fault, that I went overboard, that it wasn't really a threat, that I should have just put up with it, and just asked her why she was so upset with me.
> 
> Her line for abuse for men is skewed. I do not have near enough interaction with you, A_A, to make that same determination.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Let me go read about that incident in the social group and then report back. 

I actually thought we were not supposed to say what was said in the social group out here on the boards, far.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I actually thought we were not supposed to say what was said in the social group out here on the boards, far.


You are right. I apologize, and will refrain from doing so again unless it is specific to me only.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Ms. GP

farsidejunky said:


> I'm going to tell you a story. I came home from a kickboxing class to find that one of my wife's dog had chewed something up that was still laying on the bedroom floor. This was becoming commonplace with the same dog. I walked to the living room, and told my wife that her dog had chewed up something else, and that it was still laying on the floor. I refused to pick it up.
> 
> I got in the shower. A few short moments later, my wife came storming at the entrance to the shower and asked me why I had not picked up what her dog had chewed up. I told her I was no longer willing to pick up after your dog. Her response? She screamed it was disrespectful and took a swing at me. It connected because I was facing the other way.
> 
> Now I ask you, is this abuse or raw feed?
> 
> My response to her was to tell her that if she laid another finger on me ever again, that I would be calling the cops.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Holy crap Far!! Was this recently? Are you OK? Did you guys work it out? That is definitely not OK!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Ms. GP said:


> Holy crap Far!! Was this recently? Are you OK? Did you guys work it out? That is definitely not OK!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


May of last year. She was physically abusive multiple times in the past, mostly during disagreements. It has not happened since then, because I made my line clear.

As far as us as a couple, we have never been better.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## always_alone

farsidejunky said:


> I was being specific to JLD. Please don't insert yourself into an observation that had nothing to do with you and then ask me to argue its merits.


I was responding to what was happening in this thread, as this is the one I am involved in. And I still don't see how raw feed has become abuse, particularly after Dug clarified that violence was definitely not part of raw feed.

As for your story, I wasn't part of that conversation, and so can only respond to what you've posted here. Personally, I would not put up with someone taking a punch at me. It would be the end of the relationship, right then, right there. I wouldn't threaten to call the cops should it happen again, I would get dressed, go out the door and never look back. 

I wouldn't expect anything else from anyone else.

The only time I have ever hit anyone else, it was pure self-defence because I was being attacked and fighting for my own life.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> You are right. I apologize, and will refrain from doing so again unless it is specific to me only.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


But you have involved Dug and me now, far. I want to review what we said. 

I remember how proud you were that you got her to back down. It was like you finally felt some power in the relationship.

Do you remember what date it happened on? Your thread is long, and it will take me a while to find it on my own.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> But you have involved Dug and me now, far. I want to review what we said.
> 
> I remember how proud you were that you got her to back down. It was like you finally felt some power in the relationship.
> 
> Do you remember what date it happened on? Your thread is long, and it will take me a while to find it on my own.


May 2014.

Dammit.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> May 2014.
> 
> Dammit.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


May 2015, you mean?

You were not in the group in May 2014.

Did it involve a fly swatter? I thought there was something about a fly swatter in there.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> May 2015, you mean?
> 
> You were not in the group in May 2014.
> 
> Did it involve a fly swatter? I thought there was something about a fly swatter in there.


Ya. That was it. She threw that at me at first, then when I didn't react as she wanted she took a swing at me.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Marduk

always_alone said:


> If you can articulate what you're struggling with, perhaps I can clarify?


How can it be neutral? Do you expect a neutral response to it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Ya. That was it. She threw that at me at first, then when I didn't react as she wanted she took a swing at me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


There are a lot of pages from May 2015. Could you help me find the page it started on, please?


----------



## farsidejunky

Well crap. I am trying to get a trailer hooked up to tow for work now. Sorry, but I will try to browse in a minute if I get a gap of time.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Marduk

jld said:


> I think Marduk wants to protect himself from hurt. He wants a rule to hold up to his wife that says, Here, this says you cannot hurt me by saying or doing that.
> 
> I mostly just speak from my experience with Dug. I think his inner strength makes our marriage pretty easy. He would say that my transparency makes our marriage pretty easy. For sure, a lot of the TAM advice would probably mess up our marriage pretty bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When I go into the dojo, there are strict rules for how I behave, especially with my partner. Because the risk of harm is high. 

The founder of aikido said "to injure your opponent is to injure yourself."

The stakes on the mat for high ranking people executing very fast, sudden, and powerful movements are high - long term injury or perhaps even in rare cases death. 

I think the stakes in marriage are higher. Hence the consideration.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> Why? To me the difference is so obvious, I can't even see why it warrants so much discussion. I really don't get the confusion with abuse.
> 
> Do men tend to think that any time someone else is upset, they are being abused? :scratchhead:


Not to tangent us too badly, but I think it's far more socially acceptable for a woman to hit a man or be emotionally abusive than vice versa.

And I've had plenty of experience with that.

And there's social conditioning behind that -- I remember reading Harry Potter with my kids and when you get to the part where Hermione punches that guy, my kids stopped and asked why it was OK for a girl to punch a boy but not vice versa.

I think that's a massive subtext to this conversation. 

I am not saying that women don't get abused, or that the stakes for that abuse is usually far higher -- but that it does happen and for many women that is viewed as OK because men are supposed to be physically and emotionally strong and should be able to take it.

So that line can be in one place for JLD and another place for Dug, for example.

Perhaps even subconsciously. I use JLD and Dug in this post for explanatory purposes, not to draw them into this conversation -- I do not think that would yeild useful results.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> How can it be neutral? Do you expect a neutral response to it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't say *I* was neutral, or that he was either. At such time, I am clearly upset, and that is going to impact the atmosphere.

What I meant was I don't express emotions to "unleash"; they are just there, and I"m not hiding them. I also don't imagine that they will improve my relationship. Again, they are just there.

Sharing our inner lives *can* improve a relationship by building intimacy. It can also kill a relationship by scaring our partner away. Depends entirely on who is involved and what each person (a) has to offer/share and (b) is willing to accept/hear.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> I was being specific to JLD. Please don't insert yourself into an observation that had nothing to do with you and then ask me to argue its merits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to tell you a story. I came home from a kickboxing class to find that one of my wife's dog had chewed something up that was still laying on the bedroom floor. This was becoming commonplace with the same dog. I walked to the living room, and told my wife that her dog had chewed up something else, and that it was still laying on the floor. I refused to pick it up.
> 
> I got in the shower. A few short moments later, my wife came storming at the entrance to the shower and asked me why I had not picked up what her dog had chewed up. I told her I was no longer willing to pick up after your dog. Her response? She screamed it was disrespectful and took a swing at me. It connected because I was facing the other way.
> 
> Now I ask you, is this abuse or raw feed?
> 
> My response to her was to tell her that if she laid another finger on me ever again, that I would be calling the cops. End of story.
> 
> You see, I posted about this in a social group, and JLD and Dug both told me that enforcing a boundary of her striking me by calling the police was somehow my fault, that I went overboard, that it wasn't really a threat, that I should have just put up with it, and just asked her why she was so upset with me.
> 
> Her line for abuse for men is skewed. I do not have near enough interaction with you, A_A, to make that same determination.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Thanks for posting this, Far.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

happy as a clam said:


> Is SadSam even participating in this thread anymore?


Yes, he updates from time to time and is following the discussion.


----------



## happy as a clam

SadSamIAm said:


> The cycle is complete! It is the same as what has been happening for many years. We get along great for a few days, we have conflict for few weeks and then we make up and things go good again for a few days. This was probably one of the longest cycles as we fought for a couple of months in between.
> 
> The secret for me now is how I deal with it when she starts to cause conflict over the next few days. I need to change both what I do and how I react to it. I know it will be coming.
> 
> We spent the weekend together. Friday night we went to a movie. Was nice when part way through the movie she cuddled up next to me. It was a late movie so when we got home we just went to sleep. Spent the next morning and part of the afternoon in bed. When I first reached out to her she had a pained look on her face and I jokingly told her I was going to change that pained look on her face into one of pleasure. She actually smiled and we had a great time. Went shopping in the afternoon for a bit. Bought a couple of suits that I need for an upcoming conference. Then I played 'pickle ball' with a few other couples while my wife continued shopping. She didn't play as she has an injured elbow. She bought me a couple of pairs of shoes, while shopping and was there to watch the last 30 minutes of us playing. Afterwards we went to one of the couples houses for a couple of drinks.
> 
> Sunday morning we got up and went to a Dinner Theater for brunch for Valentines Day. Was a pretty funny play. Was nice that we had a private booth that we could snuggle up together in. Afterwards we went shopping again as we have been looking for ideas to finish one particular wall in our basement. Also went to look at some Lottery Homes. At the end of the day we found some mirrors that we both really liked for another wall in our dining room. We spent the evening watching several episodes of 'Affair' a TV series we have been watching.
> 
> Yesterday was a holiday here (Family Day). We spent the morning and part of the afternoon in bed. Went and bought the 7 mirrors we found the day before. We put them up yesterday evening. They are a bunch of mirrors that look like Gears, so they needed to be hung with the gears interlocking. It was fun and a bit challenging to do it together. We are both really happy with how they look.
> 
> So we spent the weekend together. A bunch of quality time that I realize now is more important to her than I thought. Sex was great. We talked about booking a holiday in March, but we are going to hold off. We are going back to the condo in the mountains in a couple of weeks and it looks like the kids will be with us the first three nights but we will have the next four alone.
> 
> Like I said at the beginning, the big thing for me is how I react when she gets grumpy about some minor thing. I know it will happen. I need to make sure I keep up with exercising, eating well and communicating with her about things that are going on.
> 
> Thanks everyone for the advice.


Great update, Sam. I hope the positive interaction continues...


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> Not to tangent us too badly, but I think it's far more socially acceptable for a woman to hit a man or be emotionally abusive than vice versa.


This is the stereotype, to be sure. It wasn't that long ago when the idea of DV against men would've been laughed at, and the "popular" image associated with this is the 6' bear of a guy and the 5' nothing woman railing, but as harmless as a fly who can be swatted away.

Incidentally, I would blame the whole alpha mentality that you are so often advocating for as the main prop for this stereotype.

To my mind, all of these stereotypes need to be challenged. To refuse to take someone seriously or be dismissive is most likely only going to inflame their anger and bad behaviour, and get you (one) even further away from a solution.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> I didn't say *I* was neutral, or that he was either. At such time, I am clearly upset, and that is going to impact the atmosphere.
> 
> What I meant was I don't express emotions to "unleash"; they are just there, and I"m not hiding them. I also don't imagine that they will improve my relationship. Again, they are just there.
> 
> Sharing our inner lives *can* improve a relationship by building intimacy. It can also kill a relationship by scaring our partner away. Depends entirely on who is involved and what each person (a) has to offer/share and (b) is willing to accept/hear.


I was using the word neutral as a response to 'they are just there.' 

Let me give you a real world example. I come home from work in pissy mood. Maybe I've had a bad day and fired someone. Maybe I've screwed something up.

I can envision the following as all examples of 'emotional transparency,' and I've done them all.

A) I stomp around the house, bark at the kids, criticize the wife, and retire to my man cave alone for the night.

B) I come home and act sullen and a bit withdrawn, but go through the motions. Just put one foot in front of the other quietly, and go to bed. 

C) I can realize that my wife and kids have nothing to do with work, and put a smile on my face, be there for them, and while the wife and I are alone later confide in her that it was a tough day and I'd really just like to spend some quiet time with her.

In the first two, I'm being emotionally transparent. I'm acting out how I feel, broadcasting where I'm at. My wife could reasonably interpret those behaviours mean I've had a bad day at work.

Or she could reasonably interpret that I'm just being an angry a-hole, or a sullen one.

In the third, however, I try to bring some maturity and perspective to the table, and then transmit my emotional state in a sensitive way where it is more likely to be received for what it is.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> This is the stereotype, to be sure. It wasn't that long ago when the idea of DV against men would've been laughed at, and the "popular" image associated with this is the 6' bear of a guy and the 5' nothing woman railing, but as harmless as a fly who can be swatted away.
> 
> Incidentally, I would blame the whole alpha mentality that you are so often advocating for as the main prop for this stereotype.
> 
> To my mind, all of these stereotypes need to be challenged. To refuse to take someone seriously or be dismissive is most likely only going to inflame their anger and bad behaviour, and get you (one) even further away from a solution.


Quite right. My thinking with the 'alpha' stuff has changed significantly, and I no longer use that term at all.

I now advocate for men to become strong, but without losing their humanity in the process. And humans can be hurt.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Well crap. I am trying to get a trailer hooked up to tow for work now. Sorry, but I will try to browse in a minute if I get a gap of time.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I found it. It was not in May.

Far, Dug was not the first to express concern about how you handled it. I was not, either. Another person in the group spoke up before we did.

And neither Dug nor I, nor that other person, thought it was okay for her to take a swing at you. But we were trying to look at what happened in its entirety, not that one specific action.

Also, in another post you said that the first time she slapped you, you slapped her back. Did you consider that self-defense?

I said to another member recently that physical violence is never okay. I think it is disingenuous of you to assert that I am okay with physical violence. I certainly am not. 

Dug does not think physical violence is okay, either. But he does not think you were truly threatened by her. He did think you overreacted, and could have brought about a peaceful resolution without threatening to call the police.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I found it. It was not in May.
> 
> Far, Dug was not the first to express concern about how you handled it. I was not, either. Another person in the group spoke up before we did.
> 
> And neither Dug nor I, nor that other person, thought it was okay for her to take a swing at you. But we were trying to look at what happened in its entirety, not that one specific action.
> 
> Also, in another post you said that the first time she slapped you, you slapped her back. Did you consider that self-defense?
> 
> I said to another member recently that physical violence is never okay. I think it is disingenuous of you to assert that I am okay with physical violence. I certainly am not.
> 
> Dug does not think physical violence is okay, either. But he does not think you were truly threatened by her. He did think you overreacted, and could have brought about a peaceful resolution without threatening to call the police.


The one time I struck my wife was after the first time she ever struck me. That was in 2003. She had recently been escalating, and I had a misguided approach to return force with force.

I remember the other poster being concerned about it as well. But they have not been involved in this thread, and I think this illustrates very poignantly what is being discussed in this thread. 

However, it was still wrong of me to mention it.

I am not asserting that you're saying physical violence is okay. What I am asserting is that your view of tolerance for abuse of men is skewed, and it is reinforced by the term "not really a threat".

Our shower is completely tiled. Hypothetically, what would have happened if I would have slipped dodging her punch?



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> The one time I struck my wife was after the first time she ever struck me. That was in 2003. She had recently been escalating, and I had a misguided approach to return force with force.
> 
> I remember the other poster being concerned about it as well. But they have not been involved in this thread, and I think this illustrates very poignantly what is being discussed in this thread.
> 
> However, it was still wrong of me to mention it.
> 
> I am not asserting that you're saying physical violence is okay. What I am asserting is that your view of tolerance for abuse of men is skewed, and it is reinforced by the term "not really a threat".
> 
> Our shower is completely tiled. Hypothetically, what would have happened if I would have slipped dodging her punch?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I hope you're paying attention, Sam.


----------



## jld

I am rereading the exchange with your wife, far. It does seem like you were baiting her with what you said before she took the swing at you. I am not saying that swing was okay. But baiting her, when you know her insecurities, escalated things. 

Again, that is why you have to look at the situation as a whole. Both people have their triggers. 

Not that it makes physical violence right in any way.


----------



## Nucking Futs

What was this thread about again? Is the OP still around?


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I am rereading the exchange with your wife, far. It does seem like you were baiting her with what you said before she took the swing at you. I am not saying that swing was okay. But baiting her, when you know her insecurities, escalated things.
> 
> Again, that is why you have to look at the situation as a whole. Both people have their triggers.
> 
> Not that it makes physical violence right in any way.


I hope that you understand that the bulk of this enables abuse, and then you try to say it doesn't.


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> Let me give you a real world example. I come home from work in pissy mood. Maybe I've had a bad day and fired someone. Maybe I've screwed something up.


My solution is (4) Come home and say outright that it has been a crappy day at work, that I'm tired and cranky, and would like a stiff drink and some down time.

This gives me the space I need to regain my equilibrium, and I no longer need to "slap a smile on my face" for the sake of others because I am already feeling better.

TBH, I don't see stomping around or sulking as emotional transparency per se. These strike me as a bit passive aggressive, as in "notice me, notice how upset I am, but I'll be dammed if I tell you why."

That said, I'd be lying if I pretended I always behaved in the ideal way. My own tendency is to withdraw into myself to process and work through whatever is going on on my own. My SO calls it my cloud.


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> My solution is (4) Come home and say outright that it has been a crappy day at work, that I'm tired and cranky, and would like a stiff drink and some down time.
> 
> This gives me the space I need to regain my equilibrium, and I no longer need to "slap a smile on my face" for the sake of others because I am already feeling better.
> 
> TBH, I don't see stomping around or sulking as emotional transparency per se. These strike me as a bit passive aggressive, as in "notice me, notice how upset I am, but I'll be dammed if I tell you why."
> 
> That said, I'd be lying if I pretended I always behaved in the ideal way. My own tendency is to withdraw into myself to process and work through whatever is going on on my own. My SO calls it my cloud.


I think we're heading in the same direction with this.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> The one time I struck my wife was after the first time she ever struck me. That was in 2003. She had recently been escalating, and I had a misguided approach to return force with force.
> 
> I remember the other poster being concerned about it as well. But they have not been involved in this thread, and I think this illustrates very poignantly what is being discussed in this thread.
> 
> However, it was still wrong of me to mention it.
> 
> I am not asserting that you're saying physical violence is okay. What I am asserting is that your view of tolerance for abuse of men is skewed, and it is reinforced by the term "not really a threat".
> 
> Our shower is completely tiled. Hypothetically, what would have happened if I would have slipped dodging her punch?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Check the list of posters in this thread. That person has been involved. But you only mentioned Dug and me.

And as I read through that thread, at least in the initial pages, it looks like I was trying to soothe both sides. Dug and the other person had already spoken up, and you seemed agitated. You were concerned about what you thought my reaction might be, as I had not yet weighed in. You said you lost your temper and thought I would tell you that you should have done active listening.

Far, if you felt threatened by her, you felt threatened. And I have heard of people calling the police for less than physical violence. Feeling threatened at all is grounds for police coming, no?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I am rereading the exchange with your wife, far. It does seem like you were baiting her with what you said before she took the swing at you. I am not saying that swing was okay. But baiting her, when you know her insecurities, escalated things.
> 
> Again, that is why you have to look at the situation as a whole. Both people have their triggers.
> 
> Not that it makes physical violence right in any way.


I thought we were supposed to be responsible for our own triggers.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

always_alone said:


> *TBH, I don't see stomping around or sulking as emotional transparency per se. These strike me as a bit passive aggressive, as in "notice me, notice how upset I am, but I'll be dammed if I tell you why."
> *
> That said, I'd be lying if I pretended I always behaved in the ideal way. My own tendency is to withdraw into myself to process and work through whatever is going on on my own. My SO calls it my cloud.


Its important for us no not assume our spouses bad moods are about us. That goes a long way in not escalating a foul mood with the wrong approach. So coming home in a foul mood isn't passive aggressive and the different outward manifestations of it are just the different styles. An ENTJ, like marduk is more animated in their processing. An INTP is more quiet in their processing. 

It took me a LONG time to realize my INTP H needed his process time. It felt like abandonment to me. I finally saw it an not that he didn't love me, he just needed processing time. He's hardwired that way like you. Now I just support him through it by giving him the space he needs and not take offense.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Check the list of posters in this thread. That person has been involved. But you only mentioned Dug and me.
> 
> And as I read through that thread, at least in the initial pages, it looks like I was trying to soothe both sides. Dug and the other person had already spoken up, and you seemed agitated. You were concerned about what you thought my reaction might be, as I had not yet weighed in. You said you lost your temper and thought I would tell you that you should have done active listening.
> 
> Far, if you felt threatened by her, you felt threatened. And I have heard of people calling the police for less than physical violence. Feeling threatened at all is grounds for police coming, no?


I did feel threatened in a way. Abuse is a trigger for me, specifically physical abuse, due to what my father used to do to me. So it triggers the fight / flight response. But I also had reached the point where I had taken all I was willing to take, and it was time to put my foot down.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## always_alone

marduk said:


> I hope that you understand that the bulk of this enables abuse, and then you try to say it doesn't.


There is no inconsistency here. Battered women are routinely counselors on how to defuse situations, avoid triggers and escalation, while also being reassured that this does not justify or excuse abuse. It is just finding ways to manage it.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> I hope that you understand that the bulk of this enables abuse, and then you try to say it doesn't.


They made the situation together, Marduk. She did not do it on her own.

To me, there is abuse when one side has more power than the other, when one feels threatened by the other. Dug has not feel abused when I have raised my voice to him, nor when I have said hurtful things. He does not feel I am powerful compared to him. He certainly does not feel threatened.

But to a more sensitive man, those same actions of mine might seem abusive. But if I were with a more sensitive man, I doubt I would react that way at all, as much of my anger with Dug has been his lack of sensitivity to my feelings when initially expressed.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I thought we were supposed to be responsible for our own triggers.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I believe that. That is certainly what Anon Pink has taught us.

That said, not everyone may have the same capability for leadership and self-control at the same time. Dug has talked a lot about this.

Do you think it was helpful for you to bait your wife, knowing her insecurities?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I believe that. That is certainly what Anon Pink has taught us.
> 
> That said, not everyone may have the same capability for leadership and self-control at the same time. Dug has talked a lot about this.
> 
> Do you think it was helpful for you to bait your wife, knowing her insecurities?


I disagree that I was baiting her. If me putting my foot down, and refusing to clean up after messes that were left behind by her dog is considered baiting, I simply don't know what to say.

As for triggers, you are saying that it depends on the situation as to whether or not we should own our own triggers? That completely lacks consistency. Either we own them, or we don't.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

always_alone said:


> There is no inconsistency here. Battered women are routinely counselors on how to defuse situations, avoid triggers and escalation, while also being reassured that this does not justify or excuse abuse. It is just finding ways to manage it.


Bartered women also have a shockingly high incidence of becoming abusive. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I disagree that I was baiting her. If me putting my foot down, and refusing to clean up after messes that were left behind by her dog is considered baiting, I simply don't know what to say.
> 
> As for triggers, you are saying that it depends on the situation as to whether or not we should own our own triggers? That completely lacks consistency. Either we own them, or we don't.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Far, go back and read the exchange. Look at the words you spoke to her before she took that swing. Think about how they sounded to her.

You aggressively expressed your frustration with what you perceived as not frequent enough sex, and threatened to leave her. You likely were just relieving your frustration, but were also playing on her insecurities. 

Saying things that you knew after years of living with her would inflame her, knowing that she would likely react in some aggressive way herself, was not helpful. It escalated things.

And no, it still does not excuse her physical violence. And yes, we are all responsible for our own triggers.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Far, go back and read the exchange. Look at the words you spoke to her before she took that swing. Think about how they sounded to her.
> 
> You aggressively expressed your frustration with what you perceived as not frequent enough sex, and threatened to leave her. You likely were just relieving your frustration, but were also playing on her insecurities.
> 
> Saying things that you knew after years of living with her would inflame her, knowing that she would likely react in some aggressive way herself, was not helpful. It escalated things.
> 
> And no, it still does not excuse her physical violence. And yes, we are all responsible for our own triggers.


You mean when she told me she wanted to divorce? And I told her that I would miss her, but would settle for somebody who was more interested in having an intimate relationship with me?

She was using emotions as weapons.

I called her bluff. That is baiting?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> You mean when she told me she wanted to divorce? And I told her that I would miss her, but would settle for somebody who was more interested in having an intimate relationship with me?
> 
> She was using emotions as weapons.
> 
> I called her bluff. That is baiting?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


It may have felt that way to her. It only escalated the situation. And if you had ended up falling on the tiles, would you have been glad you participated in the escalation, rather than taking a step toward conflict resolution?

You had already expressed your feelings to her about the chewed up wand, no? You said you did not make any attempt to hide your irritation. That likely felt aggressive to her.

And then she linked your mood to the lack of sex. You responded that having more frequent sex would make you want to pick up the wands. And then she said she was done. And you responded that you would miss her, but would settle for someone willing to have sex more often.

I am not saying what she did was right, far. And I certainly understand your frustration. I am just saying, and I think Dug and the other person, too, that there was more going on than just that she had taken a swing at you. 

I think trying to look at each side is important if you want to resolve conflict. Either one of you could have taken a breath, could have stepped back and looked at things from the other person's side. 

Neither did. And things just escalated.


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## jld

I am travelling again today, far, and have already gotten a late start. Won't be back on until this evening.

As far as the conflict with your wife . . . Ultimately, if you feel good about how that all went down, and it sounds like you do, then good enough. I think I said that at one point in our follow up discussion, too. It is your marriage and you and she are the only ones who have to be happy with it. 

Dug just thought you could have handled it differently, without threatening to call the police. He did not think it had to get to that point. But maybe in your case it was necessary. 

All right, on to my six hour drive. Happy Friday, everyone.


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## Blossom Leigh

It sounds like we need an abuse thread to hash out these issues so we have a place to hash them without thread jacking. Does anyone mind if I open one?

I think one title that might work is "What is abuse and what is not abuse?"

Or just The Abuse Thread

These are very real issues and it may help for everyone to have a spot to go and vet their ideas and experiences.


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## farsidejunky

Sure there was. None of it made the swing okay.

And it was about more than sex. It was about her coasting while expecting me to meet her needs.

That is not okay.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

Probably a good idea, BL. 

As for my story, I think it's high time I move some of that stuff into the open forum.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> Probably a good idea, BL.
> 
> As for my story, I think it's high time I move some of that stuff into the open forum.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Agree


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## Blossom Leigh

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/319418-abuse-thread.html


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## always_alone

marduk said:


> Bartered women also have a shockingly high incidence of becoming abusive.


And dogs that are kicked often become snarling biters. 

There's no mystery about it.


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## turnera

farsidejunky said:


> May of last year. She was physically abusive multiple times in the past, mostly during disagreements. It has not happened since then, because I made my line clear.


Huh. Amazing. Boundaries actually work. Respecting yourself actually works. You know, as opposed to striving to understand and endure abuse because the other just isn't being heard.


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