# Is she cheating or is it me?



## Andy01

Hi All,
I need some help, how many times have you read that line? I, like others before me have read quite a lot of threads on here before deciding to put my worries out there. The reading has resulted in a few things:
•	Shock at how similar some of the issues I have been facing are to those already on here, I read one thread and could have almost believed I’d written it myself.
•	Realisation that I probably already know the truth but am in denial.
•	A need within me to think that this site is full of bitter people that can only see the bad in a situation and always end up telling anyone new on here that they are being cheated on. I hope this is true but clearly, if I thought that deep down then I wouldn’t be typing right now.
•	I’ve realise how scared I am of knowing the truth for sure and having to deal with the consequences.

Quick background: Have been married 8 years, together 10, have two boys (4 and 6) with my wife and two older children from my previous marriage living with us. Both my wife and I are in our late thirties/early forties.

My story – I’ve been working progressively longer hours for a few years now, I have a commute and am out of the house from 6.30 am to about 6.00pm and work has been challenging. Around the end of October I noticed some changes in my wife, she was being less expressive e.g. wasn’t telling me she loved me, seemed to stop texting me, didn’t always respond to texts, stopped telling me she missed me etc. She then said she wanted to go visit an elderly relative on her own, very out of character and would have meant a night away (never done before). 
She also started doing some admin work for a plumber that’s done quite a lot of work for us, I was a bit uncomfortable because she has to work in his house, she tells me he is never there and he has given her a key. I noticed them texting a bit, found a text from him to her saying nite nite xxx (his spelling).
Anyway, to get to the point, I talked to her about how I was feeling, said I was worried we were drifting, blamed me for being distant etc. Said I had even imagined that there might be something going on with her and the plumber. She said she still loves me and wants to be with me and that we are just in a rut and it will take her time to readjust. She says that it has been this way for a long time. I disagree, with hindsight, yes we were in a rut but her change has been within the last few months, when I text her ‘I miss you’ she doesn’t respond in kind but changes the subject. She used to wave 
My suspicions are obvious; my evidence to date is slim:
•	Text saying nite nite xxx (didn’t copy or confront, felt guilty for looking at her phone).
•	Since I mentioned having concerns over the plumber she deletes all texts and phone records.
•	She now has the phone on silent and it rarely ever leaves her side, she has also set it so that messages don’t show a preview.
•	She went to Toys r us a week or so ago and spent half an hour in a car park on the way (I left my iPhone in the car and tracked her. I confronted her, she said she had just needed space but had phoned the plumber whilst there ‘about work’. She would have lied about the stop off if I hadn’t had the proof.
This guy is going through a rough time with his ex and is having issues over how she looks after their son. I know he has confided in my wife and I worry that the consoling might have crossed a line. He is a cheeky chappy and is the type to flirt but the kisses made me uncomfortable. I hope she is deleting the texts so that I just don’t worry. She says she is committed to our relationship and there is no one else.
I tried the 180 last night and got an instant response, she was very playful and this morning she told me she loved me, first time since I first talked to her about all this six weeks ago.
I’m rambling now, I just want some thoughts. Is this just me? I love her more than anything and have been extremely needy the last couple of months.

To be fair to her, in the last year she has taken on a job at a childrens nursery 3 mornings a week, volunteers for a cat charity and started doing the plumbers work so I guess maybe there were bound to be some changes.

Please help, what do I do next?


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## keko

Andy01 said:


> •	I’ve realise how scared I am of knowing the truth for sure and having to deal with the consequences.


This logic will lead you to a failure.


As for if she's cheating, yea she appears to be. If she has nothing to hide then why is she deleting phone records. She even has a key to OM's house. Can it get more obvious then that?


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## Cubby

Well the first thing that comes to mind is if you have a gut feeling she's cheating, usually she is....

The signs are there. I especially don't like the deleted texts. She knows you're concerned, why wouldn't she be open about showing you all of the texts to ease your worries?

Remember, where there's smoke there's fire.


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## LookingForTheSun

My take - she is very much cheating on you and the affair is physical. I am a big supporter of Reconciliation after an affair if the WS is truly remorseful and changes, but, you have to acknowledge the affair and snap them harshly out of it for R to be possible at all. 

You say not much evidence - she has given you plenty - phone attached to her 24/7, deleted texts and emails/history, key to his house and night night....none of my employers ever told me night night....and out of character spending the night at an elderly relatives house (who probably couldn't tell you one way or the other if she really did spend the night).....sir, you have no time to lose. 

Tell her one day that you need to go Christmas shopping, steal her phone and take it to someone who can retrieve everything. If you think you can still love and want to be with her knowing she has had an affair, kill it now. And be prepared for her blaming you and lying like an SOB and acting like someone you can't even imagine. When confronted and her faults are laid out in front of her, she will be the Devil. 

Sorry you are here. You have our support.


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## Hope1964

You know the truth.

If for no other reason than to convince yourself, start digging. Put a VAR in her car, keylog her computer, put spyware on her phone, check her emails, bank accounts, cell phone records etc.

My mindset was the same as yours right up till D day. Even as I sat in front of his computer and saw the usernames like hot_wendy and sexy-jhanna, I tried to convince myself that they were just innocent relationships that happened to have inappropriate screen names. I knew they weren't though.

I am sorry. Learning the truth sucks. It really really does.


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## LetDownNTX

Anyone that's been cheated on knows the signs. That's why when you say we always jump to saying they are cheating, its because the signs are there.

I hate to tell you BUT...the signs are there! 

Deleted texts, phone records, etc. She needs to stop working for him! Or she needs to work from home but not in his house. No telling what goes on in that house while you're working!


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## Chaparral

If you are uncomfortable with it why is she still working with him.

You do know the 3 xs mean kisses, right ?


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## Cubby

Quietly gather enough evidence so she can't possibly call you crazy when you confront her. Before you confront come here for advice. Don't do this on your own.

And do something about your demeanor. Saying you're afraid of what you might find out makes you appear weak and pathetic. I know, this is devastating. We're all sorry you're here. You don't deserve this. But now is the time to gather yourself and become determined and confident. Be the guy that absolutely will not allow another guy into your marriage. Your chances at reconciliation are much, much greater if you act firmly and decisively.


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## Chaparral

LetDownNTX said:


> Anyone that's been cheated on knows the signs. That's why when you say we always jump to saying they are cheating, its because the signs are there.
> 
> I hate to tell you BUT...the signs are there!
> 
> Deleted texts, phone records, etc. She needs to stop working for him! Or she needs to work from home but not in his house. No telling what goes on in that house while you're working!


Actually, she need s to give you access to her phone, texts etc. She also need absolutely No Contact with this guy.

You need to get the VAR now for her car in case she gets a burner phone. 

Check her phone bill/records to see how much texting is going on.

If she has a smart phone you can probaly get the deleted texts.

Ask her for her phone, if she doesn't give it to you tell her to go to the plumbers house and you will help her pack.


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## Jason439

Trust your gut and take the advice of the veterans of this forum. I too am surprised at how many stories here are almost identical to mine. 

I never would have thought my wife was cheating on me either until I took the advice of people on TAM and started monitoring my wife. 

Several Red Flags - phone PW protected and at her side 24/7, cold, dismissive, critical and bitter toward me for past year and a half, accusations of me cheating on her, the list goes on and on. 

Well don't I find out she is having an EA, quite likely a PA with a coworker! I'm gutted to say the least. 

Trust your gut and get an action plan together and monitor her to the greatest extent that you can. Only you can decide to R or D. 

Good luck and I'm sorry to see you here.


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## Andy01

I guess I asked for these responses and actually, they are what i need too.
I'm now feeling sick, my stomach is churning and I'm feeling shaky. I expect some people here can identify with that.

I just want to know the truth but I know that if I ask she'll just say it's nothing. if I ask about the text wit xxx (I know what they mean) she'll say it was him not her. if I ask her about deleting them she'll say she didn't want me to get upset for no reason.

I'm not good at confrontation so I guess I need some evidence, will get a recorded and stick it in the car. 

I know this sounds wet but i still feel gulity for snooping and not trusting her. I've always idolised her honesty and up until very recently would never have questioned anything she said.

She has an Iphone 4s which isn't jail broken and she doesn't use itunes, anyone have any ideas on how to get history out of it?

I just want to hold her tight and for everything to be ok. Feel like crying now.


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## staystrong

She's cheating.

It's a PA and probably an EA, too. 

Warning: She may already be thinking of leaving you for him.

It's time to formulate a plan. 
1. Do you want to save this marriage?
2. Are you preparing to be firm and decisive yet let her know you love her and want this marriage to work?
3. Try to show strength, not weakness (crying, begging, etc.)
4. Try to get your anger out now in advance. Before you confront her. 
5. Be prepared to hear the cheater's script. Don't believe ANYTHING she tells you because it will be lies, lies, lies.
6. Marriage counseling and No Contact are requisites. 
7. Be prepared to lose her, and use Divorce as leverage if she is really foggy.


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## edubs

You will receive lots of advice on this site. Some you'll like some you won't. Do whats best for you.

Think long and hard about this: Why is your wife deleting text messages and phone history of conversations with another man? 

whatever is happening, its outside of your marriage and is not appropriate. What does she have to hide from you? This is NOT NORMAL!

You need evidence that you can confront with. Hard evidence. She knows you are on to her and she will hide it from you. Listen to what these people are telling you. Don't hide from the truth, do this for your sanity.


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## Jason439

Andy, I felt and still do feel the same as you. 

I now realize that my W is no longer the same person I fell in love with and married. This was evident when I discovered the so called smoking gun that she is having an A. 

Keep you head up, start thinking about your own well being and be the best Dad you can be for your children.


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## tom67

Dude the is no privacy in a marriage get a var for the car today!


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## LetDownNTX

Andy01 said:


> I guess I asked for these responses and actually, they are what i need too.
> I'm now feeling sick, my stomach is churning and I'm feeling shaky. I expect some people here can identify with that.
> 
> I just want to know the truth but I know that if I ask she'll just say it's nothing. if I ask about the text wit xxx (I know what they mean) she'll say it was him not her. if I ask her about deleting them she'll say she didn't want me to get upset for no reason.
> 
> I'm not good at confrontation so I guess I need some evidence, will get a recorded and stick it in the car.
> 
> I know this sounds wet but i still feel gulity for snooping and not trusting her. I've always idolised her honesty and up until very recently would never have questioned anything she said.
> 
> She has an Iphone 4s which isn't jail broken and she doesn't use itunes, anyone have any ideas on how to get history out of it?
> 
> I just want to hold her tight and for everything to be ok. Feel like crying now.


Its a hard place to be in but you will survive and if you stand up for yourself you'll be a stronger person in the end.

You idolize her honesty? Obviously she isn't as honest as you thought she was. You idolized the thought of her being honest! We all think our spouses are honest til they get busted...they are the best liars and deceivers there are!


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## naga75

Andy01 said:


> I guess I asked for these responses and actually, they are what i need too.
> I'm now feeling sick, my stomach is churning and I'm feeling shaky. I expect some people here can identify with that.
> 
> I just want to know the truth but I know that if I ask she'll just say it's nothing. if I ask about the text wit xxx (I know what they mean) she'll say it was him not her. if I ask her about deleting them she'll say she didn't want me to get upset for no reason.
> 
> I'm not good at confrontation so I guess I need some evidence, will get a recorded and stick it in the car.
> 
> I know this sounds wet but i still feel gulity for snooping and not trusting her. I've always idolised her honesty and up until very recently would never have questioned anything she said.
> 
> She has an Iphone 4s which isn't jail broken and she doesn't use itunes, anyone have any ideas on how to get history out of it?
> 
> I just want to hold her tight and for everything to be ok. Feel like crying now.


the thing is, a guy that is not you is telling her goodnight and giving her text "kisses". therefore, there IS a "reason" for you to be upset. dont play that game with yourself. if you are upset, you have a reason.
i never questioned what my wife told me or said either. trusted her implicitly. 100%. more than i trusted "my gut". guess where that got me? here.
i can instruct you on how to recover deleted texts. if she doesnt use itunes, that makes it SO much easier, because you can use itunes to backup her phone and not have to worry about her password, etc.
thats how i busted my wife and her BF. 
on that note, if you choose to look at those texts, be prepared man...if she is cheating with him it WONT be pretty and you will see things from some alien woman that you thought you were married to.
download itunes on your computer.
get her phone.
back it up.
let me know.


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## keko

Andy01 said:


> She has an Iphone 4s which isn't jail broken and she doesn't use itunes, anyone have any ideas on how to get history out of it?


Install itunes on your computer and sync her phone to it. You'll be able to get deleted texts/call logs out of it.

Way to retrieve deleted text messages from iphone - Truth About Deception

*DO NOT CONFRONT HER AFTER READING THEM. THEY'LL MOST LIKELY BE EXPLICIT IN CONTENT SO TAKE DEEP BREATH AND VENT HERE.*


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## tom67

LetDownNTX said:


> Its a hard place to be in but you will survive and if you stand up for yourself you'll be a stronger person in the end.
> 
> You idolize her honesty? Obviously she isn't as honest as you thought she was. You idolized the thought of her being honest! We all think our spouses are honest til they get busted...they are the best liars and deceivers there are!


And tell her to stop deleting texts she should have nothing to hide.You will find more info with the var.


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## naga75

keko said:


> Install itunes on your computer and sync her phone to it. You'll be able to get deleted texts/call logs out of it.
> 
> Way to retrieve deleted text messages from iphone - Truth About Deception
> 
> *DO NOT CONFRONT HER AFTER READING THEM. THEY'LL MOST LIKELY BE EXPLICIT IN CONTENT SO TAKE DEEP BREATH AND VENT HERE.*


yup.
you will have to sort through lots of junk, but theyll be there.
you can also use a hex editor to actually search them, and man o man the things you can find with that.


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## Chaparral

Read this: 

*Betrayed Spouses Bill of Rights
In a world where a marriage is as likely to end as not, we sometimes forget what a partnership is in the early days after discovery of infidelity. We lose ourselves in the desperation to hold onto your loved one. Remembering your rights will help you no matter which path your marriage takes.

1- You have a right to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. By having an affair, your spouse has closed off the relationship with you and opened one with the OP (other person). You have a right to insist this is reversed for your healing and to assure that loyalties have been realigned.

2- You have the right to trust- but verify. Trust has been broken, ‘snooping’ is not snooping. It is verifying that someone proven to be a liar, sneak and cheat has changed their ways. Like an addict, a WS(wayward spouse) will often go back to their emotional fix. You have a right to verify this is not happening.

3- You have the right to insist there are only two people in the marriage. That choice was made when you made vows to each other. Even a moment with a third person is too much. You owe your WS no time to ‘think about it’. There’s a marriage or there’s none.

4- You have a right to know who the OP is, the flip of this is you do not have a right to harm or harass this person. Hold yourself to a better standard than the OP did.

5- You have the right to choose to give the gift of reconciliation or to divorce. You have the right to take some time to make that choice. If you one day realize you cannot live with the truth of what has been done, you have the right to walk away.

6- You have the right to insist your WS gets STD testing done and to see the results. Even if the WS claims it has not gotten physical, as many WSs will admit to “only a kiss” when it has gone much further.

7- You have the right to insist that your WS initiates and honors NC (no contact) immediately. You have a right to have input and to be a witness to how NC is established.

8- You have a right to set and enforce boundaries. This is not blackmail or any of the other negative words your WS might use. This you protecting yourself.

9- You have a right to hold onto evidence for as long as you need it to feel safe. Your WS has created an atmosphere of risk and danger. It is natural to have a safety net to counteract what has been brought into your marriage.

10- You have a right to know who your WS’s friends are and the nature of their interactions. If it is kept a secret, it is not healthy for the marriage and therefore something is amiss.

11- You have the right to out the affair to anyone you deem will help you and/or your marriage. This is not your secret to keep, this is not your shame to hold. You owe no protection to those that failed to protect you.

12- You have a right to heal on your timeline. As long as you are making steady progress, you are healing. It is a slow process and a WS that says things along the lines of, “You’ll never get over this!” does not have a full grasp of the damage betrayal causes. This is a healing process that takes from 18 months to five years.

13- You have a right to yell, cry, fall apart and otherwise handle this in any way that relieves some of the devastating pain, shock and loss of trust. Your world has been turned on its end. You do not have the right to physically, verbally or otherwise abuse your spouse.

14- You have the right to insist on a true marriage. A marriage of partners, where you love, honor and protect each other. If you feel your marriage is missing one of these components, either fixing it or leaving are your only two options. You don’t have the right to cheat and/or turn someone else into a betrayed spouse.

15- You have a right to love yourself. Often the betrayed have forgotten themselves as an individual. This is the optimum time to remind yourself that you are unique and lovable in your own right. That as much as you might love your spouse, you should love yourself enough to refuse any sort of mistreatment. *


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## Stonewall

Here is the hard part no matter how much you want to confront with evidence you may find. Don't until it is rock solid. She will just go further underground with it and make your job that much harder.


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## alte Dame

It's normal to dread finding out for certain what you suspect to be true. It's normal to worry about confronting because you know what she will say.

This is the reality of your life right now, so you have to be as strong as possible and face it. Your W has detached emotionally and you can no longer rely on her honesty. She will make excuses and lie. You have to force yourself to detach as much as possible to get the proof that you need.

Don't be afraid that she will deny. Expect it and be ready for it.


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## Cubby

Andy01 said:


> I guess I asked for these responses and actually, they are what i need too.
> I'm now feeling sick, my stomach is churning and I'm feeling shaky. I expect some people here can identify with that.
> 
> I just want to know the truth but I know that if I ask she'll just say it's nothing. if I ask about the text wit xxx (I know what they mean) she'll say it was him not her. if I ask her about deleting them she'll say she didn't want me to get upset for no reason.
> 
> I'm not good at confrontation so I guess I need some evidence, will get a recorded and stick it in the car.
> 
> I know this sounds wet but i still feel gulity for snooping and not trusting her. I've always idolised her honesty and up until very recently would never have questioned anything she said.
> 
> She has an Iphone 4s which isn't jail broken and she doesn't use itunes, anyone have any ideas on how to get history out of it?
> 
> I just want to hold her tight and for everything to be ok. Feel like crying now.


Andy, go ahead and cry. There's nothing you did to deserve what your wife is doing to you and your family. Just make sure you don't cry or beg in front of her. It'll be difficult but you have to remain stoic when she's with you. 

Right now she's bonding with the plumber and she's comparing him to you. The weaker you appear to her the better the plumber looks to her. 

The advantage he has is he's new and exciting to her. She has the "in-love" feelings with him. You're the same old thing. Not because there's anything wrong with you, it's just that you've been together so long that the new and exciting has worn off.

Since you're at a disadvantage don't compound it by being weepy and depressed around her. Be pleasant and confident. 

Read up on the Married Man Sex Life blog, get his book to learn more about attraction to your wife.


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## jnj express

1st---there is NO privacy in a mge, and no expectation of privacy---your vows meant you are an open book to each other-------so 1st thing you do, is demand to be able to look at her electronics, if you so desire----if she balks, then you do not need anything more than what you have---but you must be ready with some consequences if she balks at your demand to have access to her phone

IF SHE WANTED PRIVACY SHE SHOULD HAVE STAYED SINGLE---also simply say to her for the 1st 7 1/2 yrs of our mge---nothing was kept hidden------WHY ARE YOU HIDING YOUR PHONE NOW----you then add, "I want access, and I want it now, or maybe you need to take your belongings and leave, and then you can have all the privacy you want"--------you have to be able to call her bluff, and you have to outbluff her---this is all part of forcing her out of her A.

The trip overnight is out of normal for her, and the stopping in a lot for 30 min. who knows---that could have been a physical meeting, sexting, whatever---but it is also out of the normal---

-as to the kisses on the E-Mail----You need to pursue the Plumber---that is totally inappropos for a work related situation, and it is out of line for him to be talking to a married wife of another man that way

You can send him packing by threatening him with a civil action, such as Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress---I am sure, with the problems he already has, he doesn't want to compound them, with a lawsuit, by continuing on with your wife

Your wife stops any and all contact with the plumber---period, end of discussion------If she balks or says why---you tell her, cuz I am your H, I , along with you, provide and take care of this family, I am trying to PROTECT this family, and mge.,---AND THERE IS NO REASON FOR THIS PLUMBER TO BE IN OUR LIFE----I am your H, this is a requenst I have-----if you do not honor my request, then again---maybe you need to decide if this plumber, is more important than your own children, and your mge.

Do not be afraid to confront---and do it calmly----you don't need a boat load of evidence------your gut tells you there is a problem, and have every right to protect your mge-----and you are entitled to lay out your thoughts any time you want----JUST DO NOT BACK DOWN, to the "he is just a friend" crap, that you will get----THAT FRIENDSHIP IS OVER


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## tom67

If she says nothing is going on have her take a polygraph test and see her reaction, should be telling.


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## LookingForTheSun

Be strong and don't let her see you cry. I wish I had done things differently, but I didn't know...now I do, and so does everyone else on here. 

I still say steal her phone and take it to someone who can get you everything on there. Then put it someplace she might have dropped it and let her think no different. Then yes, dig for more info, but do it quickly. Affairs happen in the blink of an eye and each day is like 6 months of bliss to the cheater. 

When you finally do confront, make sure your kids are at a friends house or relatives, preferable for the night. 

Stay strong, don't belive anything she says (even if she admits and says how sorry she is, she won't be at first and it will then be your job (if you so choose) to drag the rest of it out of her. This could take a few days, a few weeks, or a few months. Know that in advance. From my experience, you need to show her just how much the OM is a POS, over and over again. Right now she thinks he is her soul mate and he has no flaws. You will need to point them out over and over again auntil she finally starts to see. I had to do that. It is incredible just how blind and how much the cheating spouse will look the otherway when confronted with the truth. You will become the bad guy in all of this because you are shattering her fantasy. That is all it is.

Sorry - I know none of this is positive, but its the unfortunate and scary truth...you need to know.

On the other side of the coin - someone else posted on here that they did not think R was possible. Don't believe it. My WH was gone - totally - and I should not have stayed, but I did - my choice - and we are doing very well, all things considered, now 9 months into R after 4 DDS and their 5 month EA/PA.


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## warlock07

> I tried the 180 last night and got an instant response, she was very playful and this morning she told me she loved me, first time since I first talked to her about all this six weeks ago.


She realized that you were starting to get suspicious. Common tactic if she is a cheater. You might even get some sex. But you need to get evidence before anything.

Do you know how to put a voice recorder in her car ?


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## Cubby

tom67 said:


> And tell her to stop deleting texts she should have nothing to hide.You will find more info with the var.


Wait, Tom67....he shouldn't say anything about the texts now. Not until he gets more information, right? He doesn't want to tip her off so she carries it further underground.


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## badbane

Andy you are still in shock. That's the first phase of all of this. This sucks your wife is probably cheating on you and everything in your world is about to fall apart. You sense the impending doom. However you have a chance to save it, and kids to worry about. You, and your kids are suffering now and it is up to you to snap out of the sadness and self pity. You need to find your outrage. You need to find your anger. 
"you work your butt off to provide for you wife and she throws this right back in your face?" 
You need to focus on small goals. You have found her primary mode of communication. Now it is time to access that. 
Ask your wife if she has the latest version of ios. If she doesn't tell her you need to sync her phone on the computer. If she says she will do it at work. Tell her that her itunes account has credit card information linked to it and needs to be done at home. Try and make sure the back up is not to the icloud but it is local. Also try to make sure she doesn't encrypt the account. You need to try and stay calm and be nice and playful about this. once she syncs the phone and backs it up you can access old and deleted text messages.


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## old timer

staystrong said:


> She's cheating.
> 
> It's a PA and probably an EA, too.
> 
> Warning: She may already be thinking of leaving you for him.
> 
> It's time to formulate a plan.
> 1. Do you want to save this marriage?
> 2. Are you preparing to be firm and decisive yet let her know you love her and want this marriage to work?
> 3. Try to show strength, not weakness (crying, begging, etc.)
> 4. Try to get your anger out now in advance. Before you confront her.
> 5. Be prepared to hear the cheater's script. Don't believe ANYTHING she tells you because it will be lies, lies, lies.
> 6. Marriage counseling and No Contact are requisites.
> 7. Be prepared to lose her, and use Divorce as leverage if she is really foggy.


:iagree:

Sorry you find yourself here, but considering your situation, I'm glad you are. Extensive amount of collective info here, take advantage of others' experience.

Stay strong: No crying, begging, pleading, etc. - no matter how it's ripping you up inside.


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## LookingForTheSun

Yes - don't tip her off that you are digging - again, do it quickly. And act like nothing is wrong until you are ready to confront. She will up her game with you to try and smoke screen thinking she is smart and fooling you - I love you - let me do this for you, let me buy this for you, let me tell you how much you mean to me.....I got flowers, jewelry, cards, lots of sex, lots of I love You's - all while in false R.....I wanted to believe, but he didn't have something hard smack him upside the head yet. Until the affair is exposed and it gets ugly, it ain't gonna be pretty and everything she says will be a lie. It has to be exposed first.

...and cry....scream,,,,,whatever you feel like, just don't do it around her or the kids.


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## Andy01

Thank you to everyone that has responded and given me advice.
I have ordered a Voice recorder which I will place in the car (it should come tomorrow).
I'm tempted to drop round the plumbers next time she's working there to see if he is there but even if he is it proves nothing, it's his house after all.
I want to try the iTunes thing and will try and give it a go if she leaves her phone lying around ever. Not sure if i need any passwords or anything?
I can't access her phone bill, it's electronic and I don't know the username or password. 
I will find it very hard not to get suckered in if she starts being nice becasue i'll instinctively want to believe that things are going to be ok.
I still hope I'm wrong but my heart wants that to be the case but my head says I already know the truth. I mean bottom line, she's been dishonest, the details of what about almost don't matter.

So to do list:
1) Set up the recorder
2) try and access deleted texts
3) if I get evidence confront
4) if I don't confront anyway about the deleted texts etc and how it makes me feel.

At the moment I think I would want to forgive and get through it (if she did too) but I accepty that I'm saying this in the hope that I'm wrong or that it wsas just a frienship that turned into an emotional affair and nothing more.
If I find out that it's either an EA or a PA I don't know what I would want. I guess i'll have to wait and see.

One question, if she wants to have sex, should I?


----------



## old timer

old timer said:


> :
> Stay strong: No crying, begging, pleading, etc.


I didn't add "in front of your wife".

As *LookingForTheSun* says: "cry....scream,,,,,whatever you feel like, just don't do it around her or the kids."

You can always do it here.


----------



## naga75

if her phone is not locked, and she doesnt use itunes, you will not need a password.
you will make your own password for itunes.


----------



## keko

Having sex with her puts you at risk of STD's. Dont but if you have to, make sure to use protection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kenmoore14217

Last name isn't Chamberlain is it?


----------



## Hope1964

I wouldn't have sex with her. God only knows what she's carrying.

You sound like your default is to rugsweep - ie forgive her. THAT IS NOT what you need to focus on here. You need to focus on letting go of her. Otherwise you will be drawn back in and she will gaslight you and you will both sweep the whole thing under the rug and she'll do it again.

If you don't come up with any more evidence, KEEP DIGGING.


----------



## Andy01

Thanks again everyone.
I have to log off now but will be back with updates.

Andy


----------



## LookingForTheSun

I would say no sex just for the STD factor. It would be difficult to give a good reason why you want to use a condom all of a sudden with your wife, so have a lot of headaches IMO.


----------



## Yessongs72

If you don't want her to be suspicious that you are 'on to her', then your sex life has to carry on normally (whatever that means for you) unless you can come up with a plausible reason for not having sex if you're working too hard how about something stress related? Also, if you've had sex with her since all this kicked off then you need STD test.


----------



## sharkeey

Andy01 said:


> I hope she is deleting the texts so that I just don’t worry.


Now how does that make any sense at all?


----------



## 3putt

sharkeey said:


> Now how does that make any sense at all?


Simply for the same reason we all wanted to believe it made sense when it first happened to us. Unfortunately, we've all been proven wrong....as he more than likely will be.

So sorry Andy, but brace yourself for the worst. We've all BTDT, so hope for the best, but prepare for your world to change dramatically in the next few days.


----------



## Shaggy

Andy,

she's having a physical affair with the plumber guy. he's played the old pouring out his problems and talking to her at length about them game and she started out helping him, them feeling sad for him , and finally making him feel better by giving him sex.

You've already talked to her and gotten nothing but lies back.

that trip to visit the relative was very likely the two of them going on a nice weekend alone. A very typical lie for a cheater.

when you do get evidence - don't confront your wife right away. Instead go after the OM, contact his ex and inform her he is cheating with your wife - it may help her in the custody battle.

then go on ratings boards like yelp and expose him.

if you're in the us or canada post him on cheaterville.com

then mail the post anonymously to him and sit back and wait for the fireworks.


----------



## Andy01

OK, so I went and bought a VAR last night (couldn’t wait for the one I ordered) and put in the car this morning. She went to the plumbers to work this morning and I have since listened to the recording. Nothing. No surprise really I mean either it’s because this is all in my head or it was because if she was going to his house anyway....

So, I think I’m doing pretty well being nice and normal and when she told me about an hour ago that she was going to pop out this evening to do some last minute Christmas shopping and visit a friend I was supportive and said that it was great because I had to work this evening (at home) and her going out would stop me from feeling guilty. 

Her friend lives in the town next to the plumbers, his town is quite large and has shopping till 9pm this evening so obviously it makes sense that she shops there.
This is all very plausible/likely, we do have stuff left to get and she has been talking about visiting the friend so I am thinking that this is probably true. There is that niggling doubt though, it wouldn’t take long to get to his house, she might not spend long at the friends etc. I mean; they could just meet for coffee?

Anyway, the real thing that bugs me is that it was after the last shopping trip to this town that he sent her the ‘nite nite xxx’ text so I’m wondering.

Anyway, I have put the VAR back in the car and will see what happens. I was tempted to leave my iphone in the car so I could track it but she knows I’ve done that before so I expect she would find a reason to call if she thought that was the case to check that I had the phone on me.
Again, I wonder how likely it is that a VAR in the car will find anything, I mean if she’s going to see him she will have arranged by text and will have deleted any evidence so there’s no need for her to call.

I am going to try syncing my iphone tonight to see how easy it is and if it leaves any tracks on the phone. If I can do it reasonably quickly and there’s no trail left then I’ll try and sync hers next time she is in the bath and doesn’t take the phone with her.


Am I doing what I need to here or should I be doing more?


----------



## warlock07

Are you sure the VAR is working ? Did you test it ? And where did you place it ?

And it might take a few days to get evidence if she is cheating


----------



## Cdelta02

Syncing the iphone will not leave a trace on the phone. But if its the first time it takes time for it to do the back up and then sync. you may have to get up in the middle of the night and do it. or do it over a couple of baths so the phone gets enough time to do both backup and sync.


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Andy01 said:


> I know this sounds wet but i still feel gulity for snooping and not trusting her. I've always idolised her honesty and up until very recently would never have questioned anything she said.


WTF?

She's screwing around on you and YOU are feeling guilty about snooping?

This:

You can act like a man - YouTube


----------



## Andy01

Yes, sorry, when I said ‘nothing’ I meant no evidence of anything suspicious, not that it didn’t pick anything up. You are right though, I guess I’ll try over a period of days. If anything, with the Christmas break next week I may get lucky (or not as the case may be). I’m assuming she won’t be working so she won’t see him for a while and may need to call so I’ll keep up the VAR in the car.


----------



## Jason439

Just a thought, but don you have a trusted friend that could follow her when she goes on this shopping trip?

Having her tailed and the VAR could give you the info you are looking for.


----------



## sharkeey

Andy01 said:


> I was tempted to leave my iphone in the car so I could track it but she knows I’ve done that before


If she knows you've left a tracking device in the car and she knows you're suspicious of her now, she'd probably check the car for such items and therefore she'd be aware of the VAR and it would naturally follow she wouldn't say anything that might incriminate her.


----------



## keko

Can you buy another phone to track her? Incase she called yours and when you pick up she'll think there is nothing in the car.


----------



## Andy01

Can I just ask, is there anyone here that had their suspicions proven wrong or just way over the top?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## naga75

My suspicions ended up being way less than what was actually going on. Lol. Waaaaaaaay less and boy was i ill-prepared. 
Which i think is the case, usually.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jason439

naga75 said:


> My suspicions ended up being way less than what was actually going on. Lol. Waaaaaaaay less and boy was i ill-prepared.
> Which i think is the case, usually.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hear you. The further you dig, the deeper the rabbit hole. 

It a horrible thing to go through and I'm constantly obsessing over it.


----------



## keko

Denial phase has kicked in.


----------



## crossbar

Andy01 said:


> Can I just ask, is there anyone here that had their suspicions proven wrong or just way over the top?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



If folks have gotten to the point where they have to come on to a forum like this and explain their stories to see if the red flags are there and to get advice on how to gather up the evidence, then their gut is usually right about something is going on in their marriage.

Rarely have I ever seen one thread where there's nothing going on. But, there have been some that come on and tell their stories and people just don't see any red flags. Then those threads usually stop there.

Unfortunately, I'm seeing red flags in your story. Sorry dude.


----------



## FloridaITguy

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Disenchanted

The phone. It's all I need to know after my experience.

Does she bring it with her into the bathroom? Guard it like it's The Ark of The Covenant?

It's enough for me.

God I hate cell phones.


----------



## sandc

Andy,
Put the var in her car. Also, put your iPhone on silent mode and leave it in her car. 

If she calls just tell her later that you think you left your phone at the office, in the garage, where ever. Then you can "find" it shortly after. "Ah, there it is."


----------



## Jason439

Disenchanted said:


> The phone. It's all I need to know after my experience.
> 
> Does she bring it with her into the bathroom? Guard it like it's The Ark of The Covenant?
> 
> It's enough for me.
> 
> God I hate cell phones.


That is the biggest red flag. Locked with a PW, face down while charging, never out of arms reach, taken into the bathroom always.


----------



## sandc

Andy,
Also remember this little bit of wisdom, please be prepared to lose your marriage in order to save it. Just remember this.


----------



## Cubby

Andy01 said:


> Can I just ask, is there anyone here that had their suspicions proven wrong or just way over the top?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In the time I've been following the forum, in cases where a first time poster has suspicions, the vast majority has turned out to be cheating. Some are severe cases and some are mild. But they are almost always worse than the poster thought.

That's because we trust our spouses and can't even imagine they would be capable of doing that. And that's why it takes a while to notice the red flags. Your mind isn't attuned to being on the lookout for that stuff. And even if you do see the signs your mind blocks it out. You think that's the kind of thing that happens with other couples. Not us. My wife is special. Or something like that.

However once cheating occurs you're forever changed. Then you'll probably go too far the other direction, seeing cheating behavior everywhere, constantly being suspicious of your wife, until a while later you'll settle into a healthy 'trust but verify' mindset.


----------



## carmen ohio

Andy01 said:


> . . . So, I think I’m doing pretty well being nice and normal and when she told me about an hour ago that she was going to pop out this evening to do some last minute Christmas shopping and visit a friend I was supportive and said that it was great because I had to work this evening (at home) and her going out would stop me from feeling guilty. . . .
> 
> Am I doing what I need to here or should I be doing more?


Andy01,

I would have said, "Great. I've got some Christmas shopping to do, too. Why don't I go with you?"

If she replied positively, you could reasonably conclude that she only plans on shopping and visiting her friend. If she tried to discourage you from coming along, you could be pretty sure that she has something else planned.

Remember, every time she goes out by herself, it's a threat to your marriage.

Best of luck.


----------



## Cubby

carmen ohio said:


> Andy01,
> 
> I would have said, "Great. I've got some Christmas shopping to do, too. Why don't I go with you?"
> 
> If she replied positively, you could reasonably conclude that she only plans on shopping and visiting her friend. If she tried to discourage you from coming along, you could be pretty sure that she has something else planned.
> 
> Remember, every time she goes out by herself, it's a threat to your marriage.
> 
> Best of luck.


In other words, be a c*ckbl*cker.


----------



## Andy01

it's actually quite difficult to not let her go out alone, we have two younger kids. I'm now at home with them whilst she is out present shopping. I couldn't have gone with her.

Look, even as I type this I can accept that at some level I am denying what's in front of me. She obviously got wind of me looking at her phone and for at least the last week has left it out where I can get to it when she goes in the bath etc. So, i look and there are no texts from the OM. Even though I know by rights that there should be because she's working for him and they would have to communicate on the one day a week she does this. But on another level, not seeing any texts from him makes me feel relaxed and think that I'm over reacting.

Same thing with the phone log, so yesterday for the first time in a couple of weeks there was a record of some calls back and forth. Now again, she was working for him so agai, it's expected that if he wasn't in the house with her then they probably would talk about what he wants done. But, again, this makes me feel a sense of relief that it must just be me. That maybe he was coming on a bit strong with the texts and she didn't know jhow to handle it but didn't tell me in case I got the wrong idea........

So as you see, in my head I have it all nicely sewn up and as long as I don't fins another text from him with kisses on it and as long as I don't find evidence of calls and as long as i don't track her and find anything then I can live ignorantky in bliss.

I'm quite ashamed that I'm doing this and know that I need to man up and get it sorted. It just seems easier at the moment, man I'm weak!

But, there is a VAR in the car, I think I've convinced myself that there's no reason for her to phone him from the car so I won't uncover anything I have to deal with. It makes me feel better knowing I'm doing something but secretly hoping nothing comes from it.

I think I must be abnormal or maybe I should go to Councelling.


----------



## Andy01

It's amazing how easy it is to bury your head in the sand.
I pray I don't find anything.
I'd swap a lottery win to find that this is all in my head...


----------



## 3putt

Andy01 said:


> It's amazing how easy it is to bury your head in the sand.
> I pray I don't find anything.
> I'd swap a lottery win to find that this is all in my head...


I don't say this to be mean, cold, cynical, etc., but I think you have a better chance at winning the lottery than not finding anything eventually. Just way too many red flags waving like crazy to be anything other than the wrong kind of thing going on.

Sorry man.


----------



## Shaggy

Some people have been able to catch cheating wives by watching the underwear she's wears out.

If she's putting on the fancy stuff, especially nice new sexy stuff when she goes out shopping it's a red flag.

It's perhaps worth checking when she gets home what condition her underwear are in after she changes. Are they the same pair she left wearing? Do they have any noticeable semen discharge on them? Affair sex is usually unprotected sex.


----------



## barbados

Andy, you are not crazy. You found an inappropriate text and are doing everything you can (and should) to find out the truth, good or bad. Try to stay strong. 

I don't know if you already mentioned this or not, but have you thought of directly confronting the OM about the text ?


----------



## Andy01

Bit nervous about that, he would tell her, she would say I'm crazy....


----------



## slater

Andy- I have never seen a case like yours where your fears were not proven true. I hate to say it, but I would bet my house she is cheating. You can not fix what you do not accept. The only way to save your marriage is to catch her. Remember that and stay strong.

The VAR will catch her soon enough. Always does.


----------



## sandc

Okay, this is hard core but you may want to consider it. One person here on TAM caught his wife but installing some spyware on her phone. The app allows him to instantly connect to the iPhone's microphone and listen to what is happening. On a whim he listened in while his wife was at the office and heard... them going at it.

This may be much more effective than a VAR in your case. I can't remember the name of the app. Someone else might remember or point you in the right direction.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Disenchanted said:


> The phone. It's all I need to know after my experience.
> 
> Does she bring it with her into the bathroom? Guard it like it's The Ark of The Covenant?
> 
> It's enough for me.
> 
> God I hate cell phones.


THIS. This was my ex H. In addition to the above, he always placed it face down, always deleted texts from EVERYONE, (thinking that looked less suspicious) and changed the settings on his iPhone so that a message preview would not pop up any more. He did not assign her her own text tone so that it was set to default, so could be "anybody" texting or calling. Also cleared all call history and voicemails.


----------



## Chaparral

Andy01 said:


> Bit nervous about that, he would tell her, she would say I'm crazy....


Yes, I am crazy, crazy over you and crazy enough to start divorce proceedings because you are getting goodnight kisses on your phone form plumber boy. The next time you get a text message or go to work for him is the day I file for divorce. What is your decision? Thats what you need to say. The kisses alone are all you need.

Check the dirty clothes, see what panties she puts in. There are semen test kits in the drug stores I have read here.

See if she showers when she gets home.

It is slightly possible that he is just overly appreciative, if you demand no contact with him and give her your reasons, you will know by her reactions whether she is in an affair.


----------



## Chaparral

How many texts is she making to him and how often? Have you countedthem up on your phone bill?

Have you got the itunes program ready to go?


----------



## 3putt

Andy01 said:


> She obviously got wind of me looking at her phone and for at least the last week has left it out where I can get to it when she goes in the bath etc. So, i look and there are no texts from the OM. Even though I know by rights that there should be because she's working for him and they would have to communicate on the one day a week she does this. But on another level, not seeing any texts from him makes me feel relaxed and think that I'm over reacting.


Andy, when you have chances, look in her car, her purse, everywhere you can think of because, dollars to doughnuts, there's a second phone somewhere.


----------



## Will_Kane

chapparal said:


> Yes, I am crazy, crazy over you and crazy enough to start divorce proceedings because *you are getting goodnight kisses on your phone form plumber boy. The next time you get a text message or go to work for him is the day I file for divorce. What is your decision? Thats what you need to say. The kisses alone are all you need.*
> 
> Check the dirty clothes, see what panties she puts in. There are semen test kits in the drug stores I have read here.
> 
> See if she showers when she gets home.
> 
> It is slightly possible that he is just overly appreciative, if you demand no contact with him and give her your reasons, you will know by her reactions whether she is in an affair.


Andy, there are a lot of posters like you on this forum who are terrified of losing their wives; their wives are never afraid of losing them.

Receving a text from another man that says "nite nite xx" is not something you can be called "crazy" for reacting to.

Why are you playing cat and mouse when you already have seen something that is completely unacceptable?


----------



## Will_Kane

Andy01 said:


> Around the end of October I noticed some changes in my wife, she was being less expressive e.g. wasn’t telling me she loved me, seemed to stop texting me, didn’t always respond to texts, stopped telling me she missed me etc.
> 
> found a text from him to her saying nite nite xxx (his spelling).
> 
> I talked to her about how I was feeling, said I was worried we were drifting, blamed me for being distant etc. Said I had even imagined that there might be something going on with her and the plumber. She said she still loves me and wants to be with me and that we are just in a rut and *it will take her time to readjust*. *She says that it has been this way for a long time. I disagree, with hindsight, yes we were in a rut but her change has been within the last few months*


Please explain what your wife meant when she said it will take her time to readjust. Time to readjust to what? You love her, she loves you, you want to be with her, she wants to be with you, you both admit you were in a "rut," so why would it take her any amount of time to "readjust"? 

You came to her to say you wanted to improve your relationship, she told you that you'll have to wait, she needs time to "readjust" to a better relationship?

I would call the plumber about the "nite nite xxx" text and let him know how you feel about it. Tell your wife that you don't need the money from the one day a week she works for him and tell her if she wants you in her life she'll drop him like a hot potato. If plumber is married, call his wife and ask her if she knows her husband is sending you texts that say "nite nite xxx."


----------



## Yessongs72

Will_Kane said:


> Andy, there are a lot of posters like you on this forum who are terrified of losing their wives; their wives are never afraid of losing them.
> 
> Receving a text from another man that says "nite nite xx" is not something you can be called "crazy" for reacting to.
> 
> Why are you playing cat and mouse when you already have seen something that is completely unacceptable?


OP is playing cat and mouse because he is in the UK and divorce laws are different to USA. Also (just a thought) RECIEVING a text with kisses is not nessesarily unacceptable as it does not imply any reciprocal feelings from spouse. Replying to that text, with kisses is completely and utterly unacceptable (unless your spouse send kisses to everybody - i know one girl who always puts a single X at the end of her texts to everybody)


----------



## Chaparral

Yessongs72 said:


> OP is playing cat and mouse because he is in the UK and divorce laws are different to USA. Also (just a thought) RECIEVING a text with kisses is not nessesarily unacceptable as it does not imply any reciprocal feelings from spouse. Replying to that text, with kisses is completely and utterly unacceptable (unless your spouse send kisses to everybody - i know one girl who always puts a single X at the end of her texts to everybody)


Do you know any men that do? Actually I text OW, even family so rarely I could not figure out how low the count was. He is either banging her or trying to. THAT is why he needs to stop all contact between them.

The biggest problem here is neither her or the plumber boy have any fear of him or what he might do.


----------



## naga75

Disenchanted said:


> God I hate cell phones.


and facebook.
and textfree.
and kik.
and zynga games.
and the myriad of ways waywards can communicate with their om/ow.

i agree, if she is guarding her phone, big red flag.
when my wife was in the middle of her affair, she would take it to the bathroom, in the bath when she would shower, when she would make dinner, it was ALWAYS attached to her. once i picked it up and saw that it was locked with a password, and i thought "thats odd", but i never even suspected why.
lemme tell you, all of the things i have read on this forum in the past months that the posters call "red flags"...my wife exhibited EVERY ONE of them.
and like someone else stated, it didnt register because i trusted my wife.
oh, had i found this website when all that was going on. but i didnt. because i thought it was "normal" behavior.
dont let your wife tell you or make you think you are "crazy", and dont tell yourself that. your instincts are TELLING you there is something wrong. there is.


----------



## Disenchanted

It appears to me as though he may be pursuing her and she is/has been considering it. Maybe no PA yet.

Only quick decisive action will work. If there is a man coming on to your wife and she is not _instantly_ rejecting him and getting away from him (quitting the job), prepare to ditch her (emotionally).


----------



## Disenchanted

naga75 said:


> and facebook.
> and textfree.
> and kik.
> and zynga games.
> and the myriad of ways waywards can communicate with their om/ow.


I hate cell phones but I love key loggers.


----------



## naga75

Disenchanted said:


> I hate cell phones but I love key loggers.


i didnt get to keylog my wifes old laptop. when i backed up her iphone, after i had already recovered the deleted texts that proved what was REALLY going on, i backed it up again so i could get the really recent ones...at that point i handed her a printout of the ones i had recovered and said "liar". during the course of our yelling match she snatched the laptop from where i had it sitting and bashed it against the ground. im sure i could have recovered the HD, but really it didnt matter at that point.
i have a keylogger on our new one. but the majority of her emails etc to OM were made from her phone.
i probably didnt need to read any more, anyways. like salt in the wound. pounds of salt. like pouring a dump truck of salt on an amputated leg lol. thats what it would have been like i bet.


----------



## Disenchanted

naga75 said:


> the majority of her emails etc to OM were made from her phone.


I repeat, I hate cell phones.

Especially burner phones. Straight Talk at Walmart - worst cheater phone in history. No recoverable history at all.


----------



## naga75

i dont think she ever had a burner. but i know they did use an ipod that had a number attached.
until i shot it. lol. its unuseable now.


----------



## sharkeey

naga75 said:


> i dont think she ever had a burner. but i know they did use an ipod that had a number attached.
> until i shot it. lol. its unuseable now.


You shot a phone with a firearm?

Anger management classes.

NOW.


----------



## sandc

naga75 said:


> i dont think she ever had a burner. but i know they did use an ipod that had a number attached.
> until i shot it. lol. its unuseable now.


Now THAT'S gun control. How far away was it? What was the weapon of choice? Was anyone holding it?


----------



## Disenchanted

I'm sure Sharkeey is right, but there is a part of me that loves this. The John Wayne part.


----------



## Chaparral

naga75 said:


> i dont think she ever had a burner. but i know they did use an ipod that had a number attached.
> until i shot it. lol. its unuseable now.


Bullets are cheaper than phones, which is great when you get into a pissing contest.


----------



## naga75

LAWL!

@ 50 yards w/ AK47. then dumped a few 9mm hollow points into it at point blank to make sure it was dead haha.
no one holding it, fortunately.
but everyone involved knew i killed it!
made me feel miles better. haha if she hadnt smashed that laptop it would have been act II.
Sharky no AM classes for me, buddy... blowing sh!t up is a great (inexpensive) way to achieve the same results.


----------



## sharkeey

Disenchanted said:


> I'm sure Sharkeey is right, but there is a part of me that loves this. The John Wayne part.


You love the guy pulling out a firearm and blasting away at an electronic device?

I find this sort of thing scary.

Especially given recent events around the country.

There are marginal people out there, and when crisis hits, they can act unpredictably, and some of them own guns.

Maybe next time it won't be a phone.


----------



## sandc

sharkeey said:


> You love the guy pulling out a firearm and blasting away at an electronic device?
> 
> I find this sort of thing scary.
> 
> Especially given recent events around the country.
> 
> There are marginal people out there, and when crisis hits, they can act unpredictably, and some of them own guns.
> 
> Maybe next time it won't be a phone.


And if one of those people shows up again I hope I'm in Naga's neighborhood. I'll feel a whole lot safer.


----------



## naga75

sharkeey said:


> You love the guy pulling out a firearm and blasting away at an electronic device?
> 
> I find this sort of thing scary.
> 
> Especially given recent events around the country.
> 
> There are marginal people out there, and when crisis hits, they can act unpredictably, and some of them own guns.
> 
> Maybe next time it won't be a phone.


um, if i didnt murder the guy that was banging my wife for two years and essentially tried to bait me into beating his a$$ so he could have me arrested...yeah, i dont think im gonna snap on anyone else for any other reason. i know myself pretty well, though understandably you do not know that.


----------



## old timer

sharkeey said:


> You love the guy pulling out a firearm and blasting away at an electronic device?
> 
> I find this sort of thing scary.
> 
> Especially given recent events around the country.
> 
> There are marginal people out there, and when crisis hits, they can act unpredictably, and some of them own guns.
> 
> Maybe next time it won't be a phone.


*
sharkeey:*

Check my siggy. I'm still living in the same house w/ her. Guns all around. 

If I were to turn physical on her (which I never have, btw), she'd have every right to shoot me.


----------



## sharkeey

old timer said:


> I'm still living in the same house w/ her. Guns all around.


Lots of people have guns and lots of people have relationship problems.

But their reactions differ.

Have you ever shot your guns in anger and destroyed objects?



old timer said:


> If I were to turn physical on her (which I never have, btw), she'd have every right to shoot me.


Well, it depends on how physical you were being. If her life was in danger, or more precisely if she could _prove in a court of law_ that her life was in danger, then she'd have every right, if not, then she could be charged and convicted of murder and go to jail. And she wouldn't be alone. 

Not sure I get the relevance here though.



naga75 said:


> yeah, i dont think im gonna snap on anyone else for any other reason. i know myself pretty well, though understandably you do not know that.


Do people always know that they're going to snap ahead of time?

I read somewhere that if someone is mentally ill they usually don't know it.


----------



## Andy01

Here’s an update on progress to date. I checked the VAR from last night’s shopping trip. No incriminating conversations, all I heard was the radio and the car noise, she didn’t call anyone.
What I did notice is that on a number of occasions she stopped the car for a few minutes before driving off again. Assume she was texting? Saw her phone last night, no texts on their to him
I’ll persevere with the VAR but I think any contact taking place is by text. I tried syncing my iPhone wit ITunes last night but couldn’t work out how to get the text history; the files I could find on the PC were all gibberish.
Today I have purchased a pay as you go sim card for my iPhone. I’m going to put it in the iPhone and put my sim in my work phone. This way I can use my iPhone as a free GPS tracker and still receive calls and texts on my number in case she calls to check that I have my iPhone on me and not hidden in the car! I had to pay £10 for the credit on the sim but that’s better than £160 for a GPS tracker device.
I’m also going to try and get access to her phone bill records. I have been on her provider’s website and I can rest her username and password, I assume this will send a test to her phone to get her to confirm but I intend to have the phone at the time and intercept. I figure that if there are lots of calls and texts then I’ll have enough to confront. If I can’t do this I’ll rely on the VAR and GPS combo and hopefully catch her out over the Christmas break when she’ll have to be more inventive if she wants contact because I am off work for 10 days.


----------



## keko

Andy01 said:


> Here’s an update on progress to date. I checked the VAR from last night’s shopping trip. No incriminating conversations, all I heard was the radio and the car noise, she didn’t call anyone.
> What I did notice is that on a number of occasions she stopped the car for a few minutes before driving off again. Assume she was texting? Saw her phone last night, no texts on their to him
> I’ll persevere with the VAR but I think any contact taking place is by text. I tried syncing my iPhone wit ITunes last night but couldn’t work out how to get the text history; *the files I could find on the PC were all gibberish.*
> Today I have purchased a pay as you go sim card for my iPhone. I’m going to put it in the iPhone and put my sim in my work phone. This way I can use my iPhone as a free GPS tracker and still receive calls and texts on my number in case she calls to check that I have my iPhone on me and not hidden in the car! I had to pay £10 for the credit on the sim but that’s better than £160 for a GPS tracker device.
> I’m also going to try and get access to her phone bill records. I have been on her provider’s website and I can rest her username and password, I assume this will send a test to her phone to get her to confirm but I intend to have the phone at the time and intercept. I figure that if there are lots of calls and texts then I’ll have enough to confront. If I can’t do this I’ll rely on the VAR and GPS combo and hopefully catch her out over the Christmas break when she’ll have to be more inventive if she wants contact because I am off work for 10 days.


Yes, that's the free way of doing it. Keep reading it and the messages will be within those codes.

Or you pay for a program to decode them for you such as, iPhone Backup Extractor for Windows and Mac


----------



## sharkeey

Andy01 said:


> the files I could find on the PC were all gibberish.


You may need to open those text files using a different program, one that recognizes the formatting/fonts/etc. 

Sometimes what looks like gibberish is just formatting data, headers, that sort of thing, and if you scroll down you can see the text content of the file.

Try downloading the free openoffice.org reader and open the files with that.


----------



## JMGrey

Well, I don't know your wife well enough to know for certain, but there's one thing I do know about people in general: they only hide sensitive or inflammatory information. So clearly, she is receiving something on her phone that she does not want anyone to see. How much access do you have to the phone as far as privileges, and what kind of phone is it?


----------



## The bishop

You are going to have to change your personality to win her back. Just from reading your thread and posts I can tell she is going to "control this" and your going to allow it. Do you want to save your marriage? Cause if you do, you better be a lot more strong willed and assertive. It shouldn't even gotten to this point... "nite xxx" means she is no longer working for him or contacting him. 

You are going to find out what you don't want to... the question is what are you going to do to get her back, cause clearly that is what you want. You should be starting now instead of waiting for the inevitable. 

More time you wait, harder it will be to get her out of dream land... good luck


----------



## Cdelta02

Andy01 said:


> Here’s an update on progress to date. I checked the VAR from last night’s shopping trip. No incriminating conversations, all I heard was the radio and the car noise, she didn’t call anyone.
> What I did notice is that on a number of occasions she stopped the car for a few minutes before driving off again. Assume she was texting? Saw her phone last night, no texts on their to him
> I’ll persevere with the VAR but I think any contact taking place is by text. I tried syncing my iPhone wit ITunes last night but couldn’t work out how to get the text history; the files I could find on the PC were all gibberish.
> Today I have purchased a pay as you go sim card for my iPhone. I’m going to put it in the iPhone and put my sim in my work phone. This way I can use my iPhone as a free GPS tracker and still receive calls and texts on my number in case she calls to check that I have my iPhone on me and not hidden in the car! I had to pay £10 for the credit on the sim but that’s better than £160 for a GPS tracker device.
> I’m also going to try and get access to her phone bill records. I have been on her provider’s website and I can rest her username and password, I assume this will send a test to her phone to get her to confirm but I intend to have the phone at the time and intercept. I figure that if there are lots of calls and texts then I’ll have enough to confront. If I can’t do this I’ll rely on the VAR and GPS combo and hopefully catch her out over the Christmas break when she’ll have to be more inventive if she wants contact because I am off work for 10 days.


How do you know she wasnt stopping for traffic lights?


----------



## The bishop

This is how it SHOULD have went down when you saw the “nite xxx” text. Confrontation, taking the phone, threating to text him as her, not putting up with her BS about privacy…. Right then you would have known…. And knowing is half the battle. 

Then you get a backbone and hit her with hard consequences…. In most cases she would come crawling back and you can start R under your terms. If she doesn’t, you move on and again in most cases if not all… you will be better for it. Unfortunately you didn’t do this and probably won’t do what will come next.


----------



## Yessongs72

chapparal said:


> Do you know any men that do? .


No, i'm merely saying that just because a lowlife sends a girl kisses, it doesn't mean she neccasarily wants them, or reciprocates them - its only bad if she sends them back. The rest of the message (in front of the kisses) wasn't good though.


----------



## Disenchanted

sharkeey said:


> You love the guy pulling out a firearm and blasting away at an electronic device?
> 
> I find this sort of thing scary.
> 
> Especially given recent events around the country.
> 
> There are marginal people out there, and when crisis hits, they can act unpredictably, and some of them own guns.
> 
> Maybe next time it won't be a phone.


Hell yes I do.

Perfect case in point right here:

Father Shoots Laptop Teaches Daughter Child a Lesson About Facebook ORIGINAL! DAD - YouTube


----------



## carmen ohio

The reality of the situation (see bolded text below):



Andy01 said:


> Hi All,
> I need some help, how many times have you read that line? I, like others before me have read quite a lot of threads on here before deciding to put my worries out there. The reading has resulted in a few things:
> • Shock at how similar some of the issues I have been facing are to those already on here, I read one thread and could have almost believed I’d written it myself.
> • *Realisation that I probably already know the truth but am in denial.*
> • A need within me to think that this site is full of bitter people that can only see the bad in a situation and always end up telling anyone new on here that they are being cheated on. I hope this is true but clearly, if I thought that deep down then I wouldn’t be typing right now.
> • *I’ve realise how scared I am of knowing the truth for sure and having to deal with the consequences.*
> 
> Quick background: Have been married 8 years, together 10, have two boys (4 and 6) with my wife and two older children from my previous marriage living with us. Both my wife and I are in our late thirties/early forties.
> 
> My story – I’ve been working progressively longer hours for a few years now, I have a commute and am out of the house from 6.30 am to about 6.00pm and work has been challenging. *Around the end of October I noticed some changes in my wife*, she was being less expressive e.g. wasn’t telling me she loved me, seemed to stop texting me, didn’t always respond to texts, stopped telling me she missed me etc. She then said she wanted to go visit an elderly relative on her own, very out of character and would have meant a night away (never done before).
> She also started doing some admin work for a plumber that’s done quite a lot of work for us, I was a bit uncomfortable because she has to work in his house, she tells me he is never there and he has given her a key. *I noticed them texting a bit, found a text from him to her saying nite nite xxx* (his spelling).
> Anyway, to get to the point, *I talked to her about how I was feeling*, said I was worried we were drifting, blamed me for being distant etc. Said I had even imagined that there might be something going on with her and the plumber. *She said she still loves me and wants to be with me and that we are just in a rut and it will take her time to readjust*. She says that it has been this way for a long time. I disagree, with hindsight, yes we were in a rut but her change has been within the last few months, when I text her ‘I miss you’ she doesn’t respond in kind but changes the subject. She used to wave
> My suspicions are obvious; my evidence to date is slim:
> • Text saying nite nite xxx (didn’t copy or confront, felt guilty for looking at her phone).
> • *Since I mentioned having concerns over the plumber she deletes all texts and phone records.*
> • *She now has the phone on silent and it rarely ever leaves her side, she has also set it so that messages don’t show a preview.*
> • She went to Toys r us a week or so ago and spent half an hour in a car park on the way (I left my iPhone in the car and tracked her. *I confronted her, she said she had just needed space but had phoned the plumber whilst there ‘about work’. She would have lied about the stop off if I hadn’t had the proof.*
> This guy is going through a rough time with his ex and is having issues over how she looks after their son. *I know he has confided in my wife and I worry that the consoling might have crossed a line.* He is a cheeky chappy and is the type to flirt but the kisses made me uncomfortable. I hope she is deleting the texts so that I just don’t worry. She says she is committed to our relationship and there is no one else.
> *I tried the 180 last night and got an instant response*, she was very playful and this morning she told me she loved me, first time since I first talked to her about all this six weeks ago.
> I’m rambling now, I just want some thoughts. Is this just me? I love her more than anything and have been extremely needy the last couple of months.
> 
> To be fair to her, in the last year she has taken on a job at a childrens nursery 3 mornings a week, volunteers for a cat charity and started doing the plumbers work so I guess maybe there were bound to be some changes.
> 
> Please help, what do I do next?


Your response (so far) to this reality:



Andy01 said:


> it's actually quite difficult to not let her go out alone, we have two younger kids. I'm now at home with them whilst she is out present shopping. *I couldn't have gone with her.*
> 
> Look, even as I type this I can accept that at some level *I am denying what's in front of me.* She obviously got wind of me looking at her phone and for at least the last week has left it out where I can get to it when she goes in the bath etc. So, i look and there are no texts from the OM. Even though I know by rights that there should be because she's working for him and they would have to communicate on the one day a week she does this. But on another level, *not seeing any texts from him makes me feel relaxed and think that I'm over reacting.*
> 
> Same thing with the phone log, so yesterday for the first time in a couple of weeks there was a record of some calls back and forth. Now again, she was working for him so agai, it's expected that if he wasn't in the house with her then they probably would talk about what he wants done. But, again, *this makes me feel a sense of relief that it must just be me. *That maybe he was coming on a bit strong with the texts and she didn't know jhow to handle it but didn't tell me in case I got the wrong idea........
> 
> So as you see, *in my head I have it all nicely sewn up and as long as I don't fins another text from him with kisses on it and as long as I don't find evidence of calls and as long as i don't track her and find anything then I can live ignorantky in bliss.*
> 
> I'm quite ashamed that I'm doing this and know that I need to man up and get it sorted. *It just seems easier at the moment, man I'm weak!*
> 
> But, there is a VAR in the car, I think I've convinced myself that there's no reason for her to phone him from the car so I won't uncover anything I have to deal with. *It makes me feel better knowing I'm doing something but secretly hoping nothing comes from it.*
> 
> I think I must be abnormal or maybe I should go to Councelling.


Dear Andy01,

While I greatly respect the other posters on this thread, I believe many of them, like you, are missing the _big picture _here -- namely, what should you do to regain your happiness.

From reading your notes, it is clear that you were absent from class the day they handed out the "how to be happy" instructions. So let me fill you in on The 10 Rules for Happiness:

Rule No. 1: You only get one life; never forget that. Corollary: You don't know how long you will live, you could live another 50 years or you might die tomorrow; never forget that either.

Rule No. 2: Deal with things as they really are, not as you would like them to be. Face up to your problems rather than pretending they don't exist or hoping they will simply go away.

Rule No. 3: You are solely responsible for your own happiness: don't expect or look to others to make you happy.

Rule No. 4: Your decisions and actions will have the greatest impact on your happiness. If you do the right things, your life will be better and vice versa. Corollary: Be honest with yourself about your failings and genuinely seek to improve yourself.

Rule No. 5: There is no guarantee that you will always be happy: some people win life's lottery, most don't and some people get the shaft. Corollary 1: Don't complain about the cards you are dealt or wallow in self-pity. Instead, focus on what you can control and learn not to worry about the rest. Corollary 2: Understand that it sometimes takes time and effort to regain your happiness.

Rule No. 6: Understand what makes you happy and what doesn't. Corollary 1: Since you will change over time, reconsider from time to time what will make you happy now and adjust your decisions and actions accordingly. Corollary 2: When something happens that makes you very unhappy, consider the totality of the situation: sometimes cutting down a few trees is the answer, other times you need to look for a new forest in which to live.

Rule No. 7: Do what makes you happy. Don't do what others (parents, friends, bosses, spouses, even children) want you to do unless it is what makes you happy. This might sound selfish but it's not. Some people are happiest when they are serving others (e.g., firemen, Mother Teresa). 

Rule No. 8: If you are unhappy about something, eliminate it from your life or, if that is not possible, minimize the degree of unhappiness it can cause you. If it's a situation (like a bad job), change it. If it's a thing (like a poorly operating car), get rid of it. If it's a person (like a wayward spouse), stop interacting or least minimize contact with the person. Corollary: When something or someone starts to cause you unhappiness, take action immediately; don't wait around hoping things will get better.

Rule No. 9: You don't apologize to anyone for doing what makes you happy. Corollary: You have no obligation to explain yourself or justify your decisions or actions. If you choose to do so, it should only be because it is to your advantage to do so.

Rule No. 10: Be the best person you can be, as you measure things. For most men, this means being fit and attractive to members of the opposite sex, being financially successfully and being emotionally strong and independent. But if you measure life success differently (e.g., displaying Christian virtues, gaining notoriety, acquiring power), then make these the main focus of you efforts.

If we apply these rules to your situation, it become readily apparent that you are breaking all the rules. For example:

☻ You are focused in the moment rather than thinking about how you want to live the rest of your life (violation of Rule No. 1). 

☻ You are more concerned about what your W may or may not have done rather than dealing with what you know she has done (violation of Rule No. 2).

☻ You seek affirmation from your W of your self-worth and the guidance of strangers as to what you should do, rather than taking responsibility for yourself (violation of Rule Nos. 3, 4 and 9).

☻ You are reluctant to take steps to improve your situation and instead are wallowing in self-pity and shame (violation of Rule Nos. 5, 7, 8 and 10).

☻ You seem not to have thought deeply about what you really want out of life (violation of Rule No. 6). 

☻ You reject the notion that your life may have to radically change in order for you to (eventually) be happy (another violation of Rule No. 6).

Based on the facts as you have recited them, I believe you have ample reason to be unhappy in your current circumstances and sufficient justification for taking action. So let me offer you an alternative approach to your problem that is consistent with the Rules of Happiness:

1. Sit your W down and tell her that you are so unhappy with your marriage that you are prepared to end it. Explain that, given what you know (OM's note, her hiding her phone messages, etc.), you can only conclude that either she is having an affair or that she doesn't care about you (as these are the only two reasons why she would not have taken steps to address your concerns when you first raised them). Say that, in either case, you would rather end your marriage than continue it since you deserve and are confident that you can have better than what you have right now.

2. Tell her that, out of love for her and your children, you are willing to give her one last chance to save her marriage and prove to you that she is a worthy wife. This requires her telling you everything that has happened between her and her boss, showing you all of her e-mails and text messages, giving you access to all of her communications in the future, immediately terminating all contact with her boss, demonstrating by word and deed on a daily basis that she loves and respects you and doing whatever else you require for her to prove her worth.

3. Tell her that it is her choice whether to do these things or not but, if she chooses not to, you plan to hire an attorney and file for divorce.

4. Stay calm and collected and don't argue with her. If she questions or challenges anything you say, calmly reply that she now knows what you expect of her and it is up to her to decide what she wants to do. Repeat your message as many times as necessary until she realizes that you mean what you say.

5. Give her a very short period of time to consider this. For example, tell her that you plan to speak to an attorney the next day so, if she wants to save her marriage, she has but a few hours to accept your offer.

6. If she refuses, immediately speak to an attorney and commence divorce proceedings.

7. If she agrees, continue to monitor her closely to make sure she does not go underground. Don't tolerate her complaining or pouting for more than a couple of days. If you get any indication that she is not serious about following through with her promise, start divorce proceedings.

8. For the foreseeable future, be cordial toward your W but nothing more. Don't initiate conversations, compliment her, argue with her or do anything else that would lead her to believe that she is anything special to you. Act at all times like a man who knows what he wants and knows that he can get what he wants, if not from her, then somewhere else.

9. Begin to take steps to improve yourself (exercise, work, activities). Make this -- along with your kids -- the focus of your life for now.

10. Start to educate yourself on what it takes to be a man in the 21st century. A good place to start is to read "The Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay.

If you take these steps, I can't guarantee that you will end up in a happy marriage with your current W but I can promise that, eventually, you will give yourself the greatest chance of finding true happiness. The key point is that you can't control your W but you can control you. Hence, you should be doing the things that will eventually make you happy, whether your W wants to be with you or not.

I'm not saying any of this will be easy; it may be the hardest thing you will ever have to do. But unless you do it, your life will likely only get worse.

Wishing the best for you.


----------



## Chaparral

Great job Carmen, hope you don't mind this being used again.


----------



## Disenchanted

carmen ohio said:


> The reality of the situation ............


Holy sh!t, nobody has given you this much love in a long time OP.

This post was a monumental effort and spot on, read it as many times as it takes for it to sink in.

Really nice post carmen ohio, really nice.

Wow.


----------



## carmen ohio

chapparal said:


> Great job Carmen, hope you don't mind this being used again.


Be my guest, chapparal. Just credit the source.

BTW, it's "carmen ohio," not "Carmen." If you were from the Buckeye State or were an Ohio State alum, you'd recognize the name.


----------



## Remains

OP, you need to look for that burner phone. It is highly likely, no, an absolute, if the calls and texts to and from him have stopped.

I was going to say, get a keylogger so you can get her passwords for her phone bills, but it seems you are on the case with the phone bills. 

And you have enough already. The problem is, you need to know what you are dealing with here...as in her, what she has become. And when you confront you need to stop behaving like the husband that you once were. Those modes of operation don't work anymore. They belong to your old marriage. This is the new one. 

You cannot continue making excuses for her. Allowing her to fob you off with crap. The trust is gone, and so you need to fire up your ammunition and your armour. Your ammunition to fire at her what she has done with absolute assurance you are right and will not be swayed, and your armour to deal with every pelter she will throw. And she will. She will accuse you of everything and anything. Just let it come, and then let it go straight past and straight over you. Stay focussed on the real issue, which is her lies, her deceit, and her cheating. Don't let her attack you, don't defend yourself from her pathetic diversionary attacks. Just bring it right back to the point. Don't let her divert the issue, to call you crazy, controlling, whatever. Bring it straight back to the point. Don't let her escape. Think of her as a trapped animal that will use anything to get out. 

Except she knows there is one thing that will get her out...the truth. Make her use it, or lose you. And the only way she will give it all up is if you stand firm. Rock solid. Do not get angry and do not waiver. And have your repurcussion plan at the ready for her non compliance.


----------



## Chaparral

carmen ohio said:


> Be my guest, chapparal. Just credit the source.
> 
> BTW, it's "carmen ohio," not "Carmen." If you were from the Buckeye State or were an Ohio State alum, you'd recognize the name.


Is that anything like Lexington, KY? We do live close to Cincinnatti LOL


----------



## Andy01

Thanks Carmen Ohio, and Chaparalal.
Two people that post what could be taken as hard unforgiving advice but on reflection, I agree that it's the advice I need and it's what I need to do to sort this mess out.

I am determined to get this sorted, I have two boys with my wife, one six and one four. I want them out the house when I confront but there will be a good opportunity to do that after Christmas, I can get my parents to have them for the day while my wife and I go to the post Christmas sales.

Carmen Ohio - your evaluation of me as a person is pretty spot on. I have fairly low self esteem, I have few friends and no real hobbies. I have devoted myself to my wife and took my happiness from that rather than finding things that I like and make me happy as an individual.
I don't think about the future, I am feeling sorry for myself and I have never really thought about what I want from life, just about making her happy. 

Very wise words, I just need to be strong enough to be able to implement.

Many thanks to everyone that has contributed, It's good to be able to listen to people that just tell it as it is.


----------



## Entropy3000

> I'm tempted to drop round the plumbers next time she's working there to see if he is there but even if he is it proves nothing, it's his house after all.


I thought she changed jobs to a day care or something.

Anyway ...

Note to self. If wife says she has a new job in a nearby town working in a plumbers house tell her no I am not ok with that.

Realize my wife and I use the Policy Of Joint Agreement. This means on major things like this we have to agree.

So assuming you could have said something about this, why in the world would you have been ok with it? Maybe it is actually a shop where he lives upstairs or such.

So I would not have gone for this arrangement personally. 

Now I am most likley wrong about this, but surely she is no longer working there. So she wold have no reason to be going near his home at all. Surely you have been there before yourself.

So I guess your motivation now is to find evidence to divorce her.

However if that is not your intent and she is still working there, if there is not a full blown EA / PA you are going to get one soon enough with the sounds of it. But if she is hiding texts already then you have your answer.

I suggest if se is working there you stop that immediately. The thing is if there is an EA / PA going on already then you will get evidence oon enough. Yes that tips your hand but the longer this goes on the worse it gets.

Now if your intent is to gather evidence for a divorce then keep snooping. You will get plenty.

If she quit that job long ago, forgive me. But indeed if you reconsile you should not be ok with that type of arrangement IMO.


----------



## Remains

Andy, I don't know if I am one of the 'harsh' advice givers you posted about, if I am I'm sorry. I don't mean to be harsh. Sometimes I get too quick to point out what's needed and necessary when the OP maybe isn't ready to hear it, and needs more clarification on what is needed and why. I try to tailor my posts to who is posting. Sometimes I don't do it very well.

I suppose the issue is do you want to get to the bottom of this, get the truth, and move on from a point of trust and honesty, or do you just want her to stop and for you to continue in your lives? If you want it just to stop, then you will never be sure of what went on, when, how long, if it went on, and if it stopped. If you want to get to the bottom of this, completely, so you can rebuild properly, then you really do have to get to a place where you are prepared to lose the relationship in order to save it. Those who care least about the relationship hold all the power. Right now it is her. And yet she is the one who is lying, being deceitful, hiding things from her husband. She is the one being cruel, insensitive to you and your feelings. Not caring. And yet you are allowing her to continue by allowing her to have that power. 

Think about it. 2 scenarios.

1. Woman cheats, man finds out, wife says sorry & he accepts, or she manages to convince him nothing went on, she is sh*tting herself that he might find out all, but he doesn't. Phew! All gets back to normal. Opportunity arises again and she is tempted again and goes for it due to the ability to convince her trusting husband/or that the affair that cooled off while hubby was suspicious is now ok to resume again.

2. Wife has affair. Husband sees red flags all over. He demands truth. She refuses. He kicks her out. Tells her it is truth or nothing. Now....she knows she has to give truth to have any chance of winning her hubby back. The reality sets in, the husband is now missing and she is thinking of all the good things in the marriage she chose to forget while she had her excitement. She starts to wonder what on earth she is doing risking someone she knows she loves and is her husband for a man that she barely knows. 

So, hubby knows anyway, she might as well come clean and tell him what he demands to know. That is the only chance she has of getting her marriage back. One choice and that is it. So then she has to come clean about the whole torrid experience, say those hurtful things to you, the shame, the embarrassment, and the demands of her are all yours to make as she is the person admitting to such terrible wrongs. 

You get remorse this way if you stand strong, you get her effort, you get her commitment, you get to choose the way forward, you get the control over how you proceed forward.

Unless of course this is an exit affair, in which case she wants to leave you anyway, it is just a waiting game as to when. What you do with these actions is just speed up the inevitable.

Both scenarios in number 2 you come from a position of strength. You show what you will not put up with. You show that you will not allow her to take you for a fool, to lie to you, to treat you badly. You will not allow it and she will be thrown out if she chooses that path.

And that in turn has a positive effect. She respects you. If she wants the marriage, this will strengthen it massively. She learns your boundaries. She knows if she fu*ks up she will be out. She is now scared to fu*k up, she respects you, she respects the marriage, she works hard to keep you and thus values you much more, and much more deeply.

Coming down hard on her may seem to you like you will be pushing her away, but you are wrong. That idea is coming from a point of weakness. And that is what makes it easy to bullsh*t you. Trust me. I am in that place also. I have been dealing with this in one way or another for 1 year and 6 months! We have been in limbo, we have split up, I have never been hard enough or tough enough, except once. And you know what? He didn't come begging me back. 

Look at those people around you who demand respect. They get respect. They put up with no sh*t. People don't f*ck with them. Those who are scared of upsetting others? Scared of pushing away? Don't stick up for themselves? They get walked on. 

And that is why you should not feel guilty for snooping. It is your right to snoop. It is your right because she is putting you in that position. Remember that. It is her. Not you. And that is why, when you confront, you come down hard. And whatever you do, do NOT let her manipulate you. She will try. And if she finds you snooping, do not let her get angry at you. That is the time to be strong about snooping and the time to confront her and do not back down. Do not defend your snooping. Other than by telling her that she has brought this. Not you.


----------



## dogman

Andy, I'm sure you realize now that agreeing to let your wife work for this plumber was a mistake and to allow her to go to his house is waaaaay to intimate of a setting. 

You will have to get the balls to make that stop even if you find out nothing happened...yet.

Whenever you realize you made a mistake you correct it, I try to. If your driving the wrong direction you pull over and get a map and make the correction. You don't just keep driving and hope it turns out ok.

Pull over, TAM is the map. Make the change in direction.


----------



## happyman64

Hey ANdy

You will get to the bottom of this.

I know it isnt easy but enjoy the holidays with your family.

Enjoy the time with your kids.

And watch your wife like a hawk!!!

Good Luck

HM64


----------



## edubs

Andy01 said:


> Thanks Carmen Ohio, and Chaparalal.
> Two people that post what could be taken as hard unforgiving advice but on reflection, I agree that it's the advice I need and it's what I need to do to sort this mess out.
> 
> I am determined to get this sorted, I have two boys with my wife, one six and one four. I want them out the house when I confront but there will be a good opportunity to do that after Christmas, I can get my parents to have them for the day while my wife and I go to the post Christmas sales.
> 
> Carmen Ohio - your evaluation of me as a person is pretty spot on. I have fairly low self esteem, I have few friends and no real hobbies. I have devoted myself to my wife and took my happiness from that rather than finding things that I like and make me happy as an individual.
> I don't think about the future, I am feeling sorry for myself and I have never really thought about what I want from life, just about making her happy.
> 
> Very wise words, I just need to be strong enough to be able to implement.
> 
> Many thanks to everyone that has contributed, It's good to be able to listen to people that just tell it as it is.


Do you have any evidence from the var or cell? Personally, I wouldn't confront without it. If she is cheating, she will deny any wrongdoing and call you crazy.


----------



## Chaparral

Andy01 said:


> Thanks Carmen Ohio, and Chaparalal.
> Two people that post what could be taken as hard unforgiving advice but on reflection, I agree that it's the advice I need and it's what I need to do to sort this mess out.
> 
> I am determined to get this sorted, I have two boys with my wife, one six and one four. I want them out the house when I confront but there will be a good opportunity to do that after Christmas, I can get my parents to have them for the day while my wife and I go to the post Christmas sales.
> 
> Carmen Ohio - your evaluation of me as a person is pretty spot on. I have fairly low self esteem, I have few friends and no real hobbies. I have devoted myself to my wife and took my happiness from that rather than finding things that I like and make me happy as an individual.
> I don't think about the future, I am feeling sorry for myself and I have never really thought about what I want from life, just about making her happy.
> 
> Very wise words, I just need to be strong enough to be able to implement.
> 
> Many thanks to everyone that has contributed, It's good to be able to listen to people that just tell it as it is.


Your familie's future is riding on the strength of your shoulders now. Good luck. Just remember though, the final outcome is in your wifes hands too, you can blow it but you can't force the right outcome. She may be to far gone. I would not wait but thats me. Making her decide before Christmas may put added pressure on her and may destroy in Christmas celebration bullsh!t they have planned.


----------



## Lmodel

From personal experience I'd say she's cheating on you. Trust your gut. My only advise is get your facts straight and try and find as much concrete evidence before you confront her because the shutters will go up from that moment on. 

If only people knew how much pain an affair causes so many people.


----------



## Andy01

Hi,

It's been a few weeks since I last posted an I'm hoping this will be my last. Anyway, an update:
I persevered with the VAR and didn't hear any conversations between her and him. I also got some more looks at her phone but as usual all activity was deleted. She knew I was checking her phone and confronted me about it. I didn't want to confront her at this point so accepted that the fault was mine and told Henri would stop. 
I then found that on an iPhone, the spotlight search facility brings up old deleted texts or at least the first in a thread. It won't show the while message but will show the preview. This gave me enough to know for sure that the flirting was a two way thing and not just the OM. There was no reference to 'love' or feelings. Anyway, it was a day or so before Christmas and I didn't want to spoil things for the kids so I thought I would wait till after Christmas to confront. 

What I have found through all this is that I'm lousy at hiding my feelings, and also lousy at snooping without being caught. Anyway, on Boxing Day she confronted me again about looking at her phone and told me it had to stop or we would end up with problems! I spilled all at this point, told her I knew about the flirting, that I'd seen the messages she thought she had deleted and asked her for the truth about what was going on.
Amazing the change in her. She confessed to flirting, said that was all it was and there was no attraction. Said it was a bit of fun that filled a hole that had been in our relationship etc. 

Anyway, to cut a long story short, we talked for a long time and she apologised for how bad she had made me feel and we agreed to start again. Two weeks on I still believe her and we are getting on better than we have for ages. She now leaves her phone lying around (which actually) highlights how much she used to guard it and we cuddle and do all the intimate stuff we used to. There are no signs of insincerity and I hope that we can now move on.

I still have moments where I think about the flirting and I still have moments where I wonder if things did go further and perhaps I caught it in the nick of time. I guess these thoughts are natural. For the moment I'm doing my best to trust. If we are going to work then I need to trust her. 

I'm aware that there's still the possibility that if there was an affair then my actions could have driven it underground but then I can't control that. I have decided that as long as I don't get that gut feeling that something is wrong then I'll go in trusting her and trying to make things right. 
I accepted my failures in our marriage and have been working hard to change them. I think she has reached that space too.

Thanks to everyone for the advice and words of wisdom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lovelygirl

Andy01 said:


> For the moment I'm doing my best to trust. If we are going to work then I need to trust her.


Don't be in a hurry to trust her again. 
She's the one who should be in a hurry and put effort to EARN YOUR TRUST. The work should be on her not on you.


----------



## Chaparral

Flirting with the guy is way more than enough for her to go complete no contact with him.
Has she quit the job with the plumber?
If you read the cheater websites, what she iscdoing is not out of line with someone who gets caught.
Did you ask her to qui the plumber? If not that is an epic fail.


----------



## LabTool

> What I have found through all this is that I'm lousy at hiding my feelings, and also lousy at snooping without being caught.


If this is true, then your wife is likely waaaaay ahead of you. She's probably taken it underground.


----------



## dogman

Andy01 said:


> Hi,
> 
> It's been a few weeks since I last posted an I'm hoping this will be my last. Anyway, an update:
> I persevered with the VAR and didn't hear any conversations between her and him. I also got some more looks at her phone but as usual all activity was deleted. She knew I was checking her phone and confronted me about it. I didn't want to confront her at this point so accepted that the fault was mine and told Henri would stop.
> I then found that on an iPhone, the spotlight search facility brings up old deleted texts or at least the first in a thread. It won't show the while message but will show the preview. This gave me enough to know for sure that the flirting was a two way thing and not just the OM. There was no reference to 'love' or feelings. Anyway, it was a day or so before Christmas and I didn't want to spoil things for the kids so I thought I would wait till after Christmas to confront.
> 
> What I have found through all this is that I'm lousy at hiding my feelings, and also lousy at snooping without being caught. Anyway, on Boxing Day she confronted me again about looking at her phone and told me it had to stop or we would end up with problems! I spilled all at this point, told her I knew about the flirting, that I'd seen the messages she thought she had deleted and asked her for the truth about what was going on.
> Amazing the change in her. She confessed to flirting, said that was all it was and there was no attraction. Said it was a bit of fun that filled a hole that had been in our relationship etc.
> 
> Anyway, to cut a long story short, we talked for a long time and she apologised for how bad she had made me feel and we agreed to start again. Two weeks on I still believe her and we are getting on better than we have for ages. She now leaves her phone lying around (which actually) highlights how much she used to guard it and we cuddle and do all the intimate stuff we used to. There are no signs of insincerity and I hope that we can now move on.
> 
> I still have moments where I think about the flirting and I still have moments where I wonder if things did go further and perhaps I caught it in the nick of time. I guess these thoughts are natural. For the moment I'm doing my best to trust. If we are going to work then I need to trust her.
> 
> I'm aware that there's still the possibility that if there was an affair then my actions could have driven it underground but then I can't control that. I have decided that as long as I don't get that gut feeling that something is wrong then I'll go in trusting her and trying to make things right.
> I accepted my failures in our marriage and have been working hard to change them. I think she has reached that space too.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for the advice and words of wisdom.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she still works for him your being foolish.


----------



## Chaparral

The big thing is simply will she quit working for him. If she will not, it means she picks him over you. It had to be more than just flirting or she would not have changed her behavior toward you and started pulling away from you. She had totally started disconnect ing from you.
Ask her to get the texts from the phone company, if she refuses you have your answer.


----------



## MrK

She was quick to cop to the flirting. She is breathing a HUGE sigh of relief that you bought the "it was only flirting" line. That was too easy.

Please answer the question: Did she quit the job? 

Full No contact?


----------



## carmen ohio

Andy01 said:


> Hi,
> 
> It's been a few weeks since I last posted an I'm hoping this will be my last. Anyway, an update:
> I persevered with the VAR and didn't hear any conversations between her and him. I also got some more looks at her phone but as usual all activity was deleted. She knew I was checking her phone and confronted me about it. I didn't want to confront her at this point so accepted that the fault was mine and told Henri would stop.
> I then found that on an iPhone, the spotlight search facility brings up old deleted texts or at least the first in a thread. It won't show the while message but will show the preview. This gave me enough to know for sure that the flirting was a two way thing and not just the OM. There was no reference to 'love' or feelings. Anyway, it was a day or so before Christmas and I didn't want to spoil things for the kids so I thought I would wait till after Christmas to confront.
> 
> What I have found through all this is that I'm lousy at hiding my feelings, and also lousy at snooping without being caught. Anyway, on Boxing Day she confronted me again about looking at her phone and told me it had to stop or we would end up with problems! I spilled all at this point, told her I knew about the flirting, that I'd seen the messages she thought she had deleted and asked her for the truth about what was going on.
> Amazing the change in her. She confessed to flirting, said that was all it was and there was no attraction. Said it was a bit of fun that filled a hole that had been in our relationship etc.
> 
> Anyway, to cut a long story short, we talked for a long time and she apologised for how bad she had made me feel and we agreed to start again. Two weeks on I still believe her and we are getting on better than we have for ages. She now leaves her phone lying around (which actually) highlights how much she used to guard it and we cuddle and do all the intimate stuff we used to. There are no signs of insincerity and I hope that we can now move on.
> 
> I still have moments where I think about the flirting and I still have moments where I wonder if things did go further and perhaps I caught it in the nick of time. I guess these thoughts are natural. For the moment I'm doing my best to trust. If we are going to work then I need to trust her.
> 
> I'm aware that there's still the possibility that if there was an affair then my actions could have driven it underground but then I can't control that. I have decided that as long as I don't get that gut feeling that something is wrong then I'll go in trusting her and trying to make things right.
> I accepted my failures in our marriage and have been working hard to change them. I think she has reached that space too.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for the advice and words of wisdom.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dear Andy01,

As others have pointed out, if you have not asked and she has not agreed to stop working for the OM, you are just asking for more problems in your marriage.

You say that you've decided to trust your W, even though she has admitted to flirting with another man, repeatedly hid her text messages from you (a big "red flag") and engaged in other deceitful behavior. Whether your trust is well-founded depends on two things: (1) whether the interaction between your W and the OM was indeed just flirting or something more (an EA or PA) and (2) whether your W is really sorry for what she's done. If you want to protect your marriage, you need to know the answer to both questions.

Asking your W to stop working for the OM would help you get these answers. If it was just flirting and she's truly sorry, she should agree to your request without too much resistance. If it was just flirting but she's not sorry, then she will argue that she shouldn't have to stop working for him but, if you are insistent, she will likely relent without expressing too many hard feelings. If it was more than flirting but she is sorry, she will likely argue that she should to have to stop working for the OM but eventually relent with expressions of sadness. If it was more than flirting and she is not sorry, she will likely refuse to stop working for him or only agree after responding angrily to your request.

If you decide to ask her to stop working for the OM, I recommend that you explain to her that you are having problems dealing with her "flirting" and it would really help you get over these and trust her again if she would stop working for him. Be calm, don't demand that she stop working for him (just yet) but make it clear that this is what you want. Then carefully observe her reaction, especially her emotional reaction, to your request. This will give you the best insight into what really happened and how remorseful your W is. Based on her response, you can decide what to do next.

Of course, you can continue to rug sweep this, as you've apparently decided to do but, based on the experiences of many others who have faced similar problems, if you do this you are asking for problems down the road. IMO, you will end up in a better place and have the greatest chance of protecting your marriage if you do what any normal man would do and insist that your W stop having any contact with a man with whom she's admitted to flirting. Not only will this help you decide how damaged your marriage is, it will send a clear message to her that she cannot fool around on you without consequences. In your original post, you said, _"I tried the 180 last night and got an instant response, she was very playful and this morning she told me she loved me, first time since I first talked to her about all this six weeks ago."_ That should teach you something about how to deal with your W's indiscretions.

Several weeks ago, you replied to note I posted:

_"Carmen Ohio - your evaluation of me as a person is pretty spot on. I have fairly low self esteem, I have few friends and no real hobbies. I have devoted myself to my wife and took my happiness from that rather than finding things that I like and make me happy as an individual. I don't think about the future, I am feeling sorry for myself and I have never really thought about what I want from life, just about making her happy. Very wise words, I just need to be strong enough to be able to implement."_

Based on your most recent post, it seems like you've slipped back into being the man you describe above. I hope I'm wrong about this.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.


----------



## Disenchanted

My WW admitted 100% to absolutely everything I had already caught her in.


----------



## naga75

Disenchanted said:


> My WW admitted 100% to absolutely everything I had already caught her in.


mine too thats funny.


----------



## sandc

Andy,
You're burying your head in the sand on this. She has taken this underground. She doesn't need to text him any longer to flirt. She can do that at work. She has to cut off all contact with this man or it (whatever it is) will start up again. 

Here's a fun game. Don't have sex with her for about two weeks and then semen test her panties. Kinda' gross? Sure but you may be amazed at what you find.


----------



## bfree

Andy,

I hope your wife is being truthful and remoseful. But the old adage is trust but verify. I don't see how you can verify if she is still working there. Just remember that a woman like a strong man and a strong man is not afraid of the truth.


----------



## Wiserforit

Andy01 said:


> I also got some more looks at her phone but as usual all activity was deleted. She knew I was checking her phone and confronted me about it. I didn't want to confront her at this point so accepted that the fault was mine and told Henri would stop.
> I then found that on an iPhone, the spotlight search facility brings up old deleted texts or at least the first in a thread. It won't show the while message but will show the preview. This gave me enough to know for sure that the flirting was a two way thing and not just the OM.


She's having an affair, following cheater 101 script. 




> on Boxing Day she confronted me again about looking at her phone and told me it had to stop or we would end up with problems! I spilled all at this point, told her I knew about the flirting, that I'd seen the messages she thought she had deleted and asked her for the truth about what was going on.
> Amazing the change in her. She confessed to flirting, said that was all it was and there was no attraction. Said it was a bit of fun that filled a hole that had been in our relationship etc.


Same story for the 1,000th time here. Cheating spouse threatens victim to protect affair. Instead of being 100% transparent and therefore trustworthy.

Cheating spouse is caught red-handed, but only partially, and cheating spouse admits to only the evidence that is incontrovertible. Wow, isn't it amazing how there is not one shred more besides what you found? 

Then, _blame the victim_. But word it like she isn't. It's the problems in the relationship. Translation: you. You made me cheat. 




> Anyway, to cut a long story short, we talked for a long time and she apologised for how bad she had made me feel and we agreed to start again. Two weeks on I still believe her and we are getting on better than we have for ages. She now leaves her phone lying around (which actually) highlights how much she used to guard it and we cuddle and do all the intimate stuff we used to. There are no signs of insincerity and I hope that we can now move on.
> 
> I still have moments where I think about the flirting and I still have moments where I wonder if things did go further and perhaps I caught it in the nick of time. I guess these thoughts are natural. For the moment I'm doing my best to trust. If we are going to work then I need to trust her.


Gah! You can trust when 100% transparency has been implemented and a number of other genuine signs of contrition like maybe a strong letter of goodbye to the boyfriend and no contact. Joint marriage counseling. A full revelation of communications from before. Complete exposeure instead of trickle-truth. 

Sheesh - leaving the phone where you can check it, once she has determined you are checking it anyway. Boy there's some real genius, eh? How much smarts are we talking about here? Hows about her going back and retrieving all of the deleted texts to show you what really went on there? 

You've still got problems buddy. When they get away with this we teach them that they just need to be better at affairs instead of not having them.


----------



## old timer

Andy, follow your gut. It will eventually lead you to the right answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Andy01

Yes, she is still working for the plumber. When we talked about the flirting and she apologized she brought up the issue of working for him. She said that he was never there while she was, the flirting would stop and then offered to stop working there if it would make me feel better. Today is her first day back after Christmas.

I told her that I needed to trust her and said she could carry on working there.
I wish I'd taken time to think about it but was caught up with the emotion of the situation and huge feelings of relief.

Now her phone is more available I will sync iTunes and look at deleted texts. However, i like that we get on at the moment and part of me thinks that I just need to trust and that even if I only find evidence of flirting it will make me revert to not trusting which will further harm the relationship.

I kind of think that actually, we all flirt a bit perhaps that's ok as long admit doesn't cross the line. What upset me was the hiding it. I mean if she worked in an office and flirted with a colleague on work email then I would never know and she wouldn't hide it.

Responding on here is quite difficult because even as I type I can see the crap in my arguments and perhaps if the shoe was on the other foot I'd be making similar comments to a lot of you.
At the moment I think I'll do the iTunes thing, see if her behavior changes over the next couple of weeks and maybe then reassess. 
When I confronted about the flirting I tolls her that her phone doesn't actually delete texts but didn't explain about the spotlight search and that I had only been able to view the first line of a few texts. I assumed she would think that I had seen all texts and that therefore, if there was more going on. She would have known that I knew and spilled. As she only talked about the flirting I assumed that hat was all there was to find on her phone. Think I do too much thinking!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Will_Kane

Andy01 said:


> Yes, she is still working for the plumber. When we talked about the flirting and she apologized she brought up the issue of working for him. She said that he was never there while she was, the flirting would stop and then offered to stop working there if it would make me feel better. Today is her first day back after Christmas.
> 
> I told her that I needed to trust her and said she could carry on working there.
> I wish I'd taken time to think about it but was caught up with the emotion of the situation and huge feelings of relief.
> 
> Now her phone is more available I will sync iTunes and look at deleted texts. However, i like that we get on at the moment and part of me thinks that I just need to trust and that even if I only find evidence of flirting it will make me revert to not trusting which will further harm the relationship.
> 
> I kind of think that actually, we all flirt a bit perhaps that's ok as long admit doesn't cross the line. What upset me was the hiding it. I mean if she worked in an office and flirted with a colleague on work email then I would never know and she wouldn't hide it.
> 
> *Responding on here is quite difficult because even as I type I can see the crap in my arguments *and perhaps if the shoe was on the other foot I'd be making similar comments to a lot of you.
> At the moment I think I'll do the iTunes thing, see if her behavior changes over the next couple of weeks and maybe then reassess.
> When I confronted about the flirting I tolls her that her phone doesn't actually delete texts but didn't explain about the spotlight search and that I had only been able to view the first line of a few texts. I assumed she would think that I had seen all texts and that therefore, if there was more going on. She would have known that I knew and spilled. As she only talked about the flirting I assumed that hat was all there was to find on her phone. Think I do too much thinking!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, you're selling yourself short.

I'm glad that she seems like she's back to her old self. You really only have her word, though.

Has she been told that she shouldn't delete anything going forward?

In your case, VAR may not have been as useful, because she goes to his house every day. Still, I think the VAR would have turned something up if she was in a full-blown affair because cheaters usually can't help themselves.

Her explanation about flirting was lousy. I understand what you're saying, maybe you flirt a little, tiny bit in direct interactions with some of the women you encounter, like the woman cashier in the store, but then again don't confuse that with just being friendly, or making a joke, as you would with a male cashier, as well. Or with co-workers, both female and male. What your wife did was NOT THAT. She was texting sexually suggestive messages and receiving same from another man, and then deleting them. She was NOT leaving it at work, she was taking it home with her.

The sad thing, in a way, is that it seems she WANTS you to stand up and fight for her, to tell her NO, it's not OK that she works with another man who OPENLY desires her and for whom she has encouraged that desire. She TOLD you she would quit if you wanted her to, reading between the lines, it could be that she is TELLING YOU that she wants you to be the BAD GUY for her, and tell her not to work there. That's my take on it, anyway, she knows it's not good for her to go back to work there, but she just can't pull the trigger and was hoping that you would do so.


----------



## Humble Pie

Well Andy, we all wish you the best... but I like the others do not believe it was just childish flirty... SHE WORKS AT HIS HOUSE... 

Did you ever confirm that she went to her ELDERLY RELATIVES for the night? Did she need to work with this plummer, or did you just WANT to? Big difference! Your children are still young enough for the mother to be present throughout the day for her to SEEK working for this plummer. How long has this plummer been in your life (you say he has done ALOT of work at your home). 

I would find a new plummer if I were you, your wife crossed the boundaries (even by accepting that XXX nite nite text) and he should not be USED anymore for his services.


----------



## Chaparral

If it were just flirting her whole outlook and demeanor towards you would not have changed. Most of all, things did not change back until you called her on it.

Since she is at his house they don't really need to talk or text on the phone and it is easy to get around you. I would not believe they are done even if she quit there.

If its so innocent and he is never there how did it get so intense he is kissing her good night by phone?

Ask her to quit now and the double up on checking her phone and texts. Double up on the var and get a GPS on her phone.

It's ok that you folded, that's normal, but stop this bullsh!t now.

While the may not be in a physical affair yet, things have gone way beyond flirting. Just tell your wife after thinknig about it you want her to quit and to have no more contact with him. If she asks why, tell her, he sends kisses good night and she has been hiding things and you willnever get over that.

You are afraid of sounding demanding and controlling

Number two, you need to get out and get a life besides just depending on your wife/family. Being needy and a leech is very unattractive to your wife. Get the MMSL book and it will become clear.


----------



## RWB

Andy,

I know you want this "chapter" to just end... and move on with your life like it never happened. Understandable.

But... Re-Read you original post. Your wife lied, your wife minimized, your wife gave you affair speak as clear as rain... "We are in a Rut... We have been that way a long time". "I'm just helping him during a rough time." WAKE UP! I and 100s her on CWI have heard this same line. It's a script.

Then you catch her in flirting messages. This is what you know. 

Hear a truth... when it comes to affairs, it's 10X more than what you find out. Your wife is getting a the least, an emotional charge from this man. 

Here's the bottom line. You are rug sweeping. OK, let's say you put your foot down and demand that she quits her job. No more contact with JOE the PLUMBER. Great... this time. Understand? You still have not addressed the root issue. 

She is bored. She is middle age mother. She is looking for attention... and she has shown clearly you are not her 1st choice. She is primed for another affair. Yes, that's what she having. If she was at the minimum sexual flirt texting this guy and was hiding/deleted the message to keep you from reading them... That Constitutes an AFFAIR. Period. 

Quit dancing with the devil.


----------



## carmen ohio

Andy01, Will_Kane, Humble Pie, chapparal and RWB have all given you great advice. Ignore it at your peril. And please, for your wife, your children, yourself and the good of your marriage, read "The Married Man Sex Life Primer."


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

She is working at his home, she and him are flirting, Then they got caught but simply escaped with her offering her phone and talking nicely and may be she ****ed your brain out but no consequences.

She is still working with him. sure she is lucky to have a husband like that.
At least open your eyes and see the reality. 
Dont be scared to live a life without her, People who are scared to see the truth can never live the life with self respect.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Andy01 said:


> I wish I'd taken time to think about it but was caught up with the emotion of the situation and huge feelings of relief.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, now that you've thought about it, tell her that you've changed your mind and that you don't want her working for him anymore. Jeez, are you a glutton for punishment? Every time she's over there you are going to be wondering what she's up to...what or who she's doing! Who's plumbing is he really working on?

She can find a different job. Small price to pay for some peace of mind.

I think she knows you well enough to know how you would respond to her offers of transparency. Her actions after being confronted seem pretty contrived (leaving the phone lying around). Suddenly she's madly in love with you again and putting out like a newly wed. She's gaslighting. Be watchful.

See how she reacts when you tell her that you actually do want her to quit working for Mr. Plumber. I bet she starts making excuses as to why she needs to stay there...needs the money, too hard to find another job, blah blah.

BTW, there are other ways of communicating besides text. Chat apps, twitter, facetime, FB messaging...hell, even a burner phone.


----------



## Shaggy

Andy

trust but verify 

What you do know:

1. she did lie to you. When you presented evidence of X - which she had lied about - suddenly she's admitting to X. So you know that she will and can lie.

2. she was open to another man's attention, and did return it. Think about that. This was an innocent bit of flirting. She was returning and participating in this OM chasing her to have a romantic relationship.

I'd be getting her out of working for him, and I would continue with the VAR for a while. She may have a burner phone, or may have swithced to a messaging app, or..


----------



## Disenchanted

Regardless of her intention, just for conversation sake, this plumber knows he's got a line on her. Whether he's taken full advantage of it is unknown, but even if not it still exists in his mind. 

Do you really want your woman around a man who feels this way?

Who is the man in this situation? If you don't put your foot down she will continue to lose respect for you as another man chases her.


----------



## JMGrey

Andy01 said:


> Yes, she is still working for the plumber. When we talked about the flirting and she apologized she brought up the issue of working for him. She said that he was never there while she was, the flirting would stop and then offered to stop working there if it would make me feel better. Today is her first day back after Christmas.
> 
> I told her that I needed to trust her and said she could carry on working there.
> I wish I'd taken time to think about it but was caught up with the emotion of the situation and huge feelings of relief.
> 
> Now her phone is more available I will sync iTunes and look at deleted texts. However, i like that we get on at the moment and part of me thinks that I just need to trust and that even if I only find evidence of flirting it will make me revert to not trusting which will further harm the relationship.
> 
> I kind of think that actually, we all flirt a bit perhaps that's ok as long admit doesn't cross the line. What upset me was the hiding it. I mean if she worked in an office and flirted with a colleague on work email then I would never know and she wouldn't hide it.
> 
> Responding on here is quite difficult because even as I type I can see the crap in my arguments and perhaps if the shoe was on the other foot I'd be making similar comments to a lot of you.
> At the moment I think I'll do the iTunes thing, see if her behavior changes over the next couple of weeks and maybe then reassess.
> When I confronted about the flirting I tolls her that her phone doesn't actually delete texts but didn't explain about the spotlight search and that I had only been able to view the first line of a few texts. I assumed she would think that I had seen all texts and that therefore, if there was more going on. She would have known that I knew and spilled. As she only talked about the flirting I assumed that hat was all there was to find on her phone. Think I do too much thinking!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm going to have a fellow Brit give his tuppence:










This is one of the most egregious examples of cooperative rug-sweeping that I've ever seen. Cheaters don't admit to anything until they're back into a wall. They don't admit to something you have proof for until you virtually have it in HD film. Her assumption even now is that you don't know anything because if you knew the full score, she knows you would've already tossed her out. A repentant cheater doesn't rationalize the conditions of their affair or stay in a position where it can happen again. She's done neither of those things. If you don't put an end to this now, one day you're going to come home to one of your two worst nightmares: your wife in bed with another man or a house that's empty save for a set of divorce papers waiting on your signature. Man up and fix this or you'll have only yourself to blame.


----------



## sinnister

I have to agree with the post above. You're in for a world of hurt because you're afraid to address this. She's manipulated you quite easily.


----------



## Disenchanted

JMGrey said:


>


Sorry for the brief thread-jack, but that graphic is fantastic.


----------



## keko

I want to believe that nothing is going but come on dude. They work together in his house and are flirting, do you really think two adults would stop at text messages? 

Listen, even behind this computer screen I can see they are banging each other just about everyday. 

You can either see it for what it is or turn a blind and act like nothing happened, but if you do the latter you'll be back here in a few months posting the same stuff all over again.


----------



## Andy01

Just to clear a few things up:

- she works there one morning a week from about 9.30am to about 1.30pm.

- I've seen call logs for these times showing that they have talked on the phone which means he isn't there

- she does admin for him whilst he is out doing plumbing work.

I know I seem pathetic and a wimp but I need more than just flirting to push me to do something. i don't just mean that i need proof of a physical affair, I mean I need to see sexually suggestive texts rather than just kisses (xxx) and references to having a bath or 'have you got a whole wardrobe of outfits'.

She has never synced her phone with ITunes so all her deleted texts should be available. I will sync her Iphone to ITunes and look through her deleted texts.
If I find anything more damning, rather than confronting immediately, i'll post them on here and get some advice before confronting.

Of course, i'm still hoping that there will be nothing bad to find. 

I hope I'm not proven wrong, it takes alot to get me going but once it does I tend to rush in without thinking in the hope that I can 'fix' things quickly.


----------



## sandc

I wish you could take the time to read some of the other threads on TAM. DrMatthias is one of them. He confronted his wife, she admitted to inappropriate behavior, agreed to change, THEN had sex with the OM.

No one ever wants to think they are in this situation. We all want to think that only someone else's spouse does things like this. We all want to think we REALLY know the person we're married to. TAM has sown that many of us were wrong.


----------



## JMGrey

Andy01 said:


> I know I seem pathetic and a wimp but I need more than just flirting to push me to do something. i don't just mean that i need proof of a physical affair, I mean I need to see sexually suggestive texts rather than just kisses (xxx) and references to having a bath or 'have you got a whole wardrobe of outfits'.


Do you know how many BSs on this site would kill to have had the opportunity to expose and force NC on their spouse's infidelity before it reached the point of no return (assuming that it already hasn't, I still don't buy that nothing physical has happened)? If you're right and they haven't done anything yet, you've pissed away a golden opportunity to stop it before it really does become something irrevocable. Instead, you don't want to rock the boat. That's totally your choice, just don't expect to much sympathy when you roll back round here when you find out that what you hoped was harmless really wasn't at all.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Andy01 said:


> I know I seem pathetic and a wimp but I need more than just flirting to push me to do something. i don't just mean that i need proof of a physical affair, I mean I need to see sexually suggestive texts rather than just kisses (xxx) and references to having a bath or 'have you got a whole wardrobe of outfits'.


So the lies and dishonesty when you first confronted were not an issue?



> She has never synced her phone with ITunes so all her deleted texts should be available. I will sync her Iphone to ITunes and look through her deleted texts.
> If I find anything more damning, rather than confronting immediately, i'll post them on here and get some advice before confronting.
> 
> Of course, i'm still hoping that there will be nothing bad to find.
> 
> I hope I'm not proven wrong, it takes alot to get me going but once it does I tend to rush in without thinking in the hope that I can 'fix' things quickly.


When you find bad stuff, how do you plan to rug sweep that away?

Look, I know I am being a jerk, but what has she done to demonstrate that she deserves your trust? By her own admission, she was inappropriate with her employer. She also lied to you about it and actively worked to hide it. All she has admitted to is the things you already knew. Why does she get that trust back without having to earn it?


----------



## tom67

Tall Average Guy said:


> So the lies and dishonesty when you first confronted were not an issue?
> 
> 
> 
> When you find bad stuff, how do you plan to rug sweep that away?
> 
> Look, I know I am being a jerk, but what has she done to demonstrate that she deserves your trust? By her own admission, she was inappropriate with her employer. She also lied to you about it and actively worked to hide it. All she has admitted to is the things you already knew. Why does she get that trust back without having to earn it?


You know she should quit this job asap. Good luck.


----------



## naga75

JMGrey said:


> Do you know how many BSs on this site would kill to have had the opportunity to expose and force NC on their spouse's infidelity before it reached the point of no return (assuming that it already hasn't, I still don't buy that nothing physical has happened)? If you're right and they haven't done anything yet, you've pissed away a golden opportunity to stop it before it really does become something irrevocable. Instead, you don't want to rock the boat. That's totally your choice, just don't expect to much sympathy when you roll back round here when you find out that what you hoped was harmless really wasn't at all.


I, for one, ABSOLUTELY fall into this category.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Disenchanted

JMGrey said:


> Do you know how many BSs on this site would kill to have had the opportunity to expose and force NC on their spouse's infidelity before it reached the point of no return (assuming that it already hasn't, I still don't buy that nothing physical has happened)? If you're right and they haven't done anything yet, you've pissed away a golden opportunity to stop it before it really does become something irrevocable. Instead, you don't want to rock the boat. That's totally your choice, just don't expect to much sympathy when you roll back round here when you find out that what you hoped was harmless really wasn't at all.


I knew my wife was developing an EA with my neighbor. I even went to so far as to tell her that I knew she'd be sleeping with him within a year (only took 2 months from when I said that). I believe that she was being honest when she didn't believe me, at that point. 

What I didn't know was what to do about it. I didn't have TAM as a resource and I can tell you _unequivocally, without any hesitation whatsoever, and zero doubt in my mind_, that if I had just divorced her instead of saying those things to her I would have saved _years of my life_. 

If you can't gather the strength to stop this thing, *GTFO*!

*DO NOT PUT YOURSELF THROUGH THE SLOW TORTUROUS DEATH BY A THOUSAND CUTS OF WATCHING/FUNDING YOUR WIFE'S PA! DO NOT DO IT.
*


----------



## Disenchanted

HOLY CRAP I'm triggering for the first time in months.

Dude, I am frikin' scared for you. You are not doing the right thing!


----------



## Chaparral

_Around the end of October I noticed some changes in my wife, she was being less expressive e.g. wasn’t telling me she loved me, seemed to stop texting me, didn’t always respond to texts, stopped telling me she missed me etc. She then said she wanted to go visit an elderly relative on her own, very out of character and would have meant a night away (never done before)._

Your excusses for her behavior do not account for this. If it was only flirting why did she turn her back on you? You're grasping at straws. You may be able to turn this around. If you jump on it quick enough you may save yourself.


----------



## sandc

He doesn't want to. It's more comfortable for him to sweep this all under the rug.

And when he finds out we're all correct in our assessment of the situation and finds definitive proof his wife is in a PA, he won't come back. He'll end up just another bit of emotional roadkill on the side of the highway of life...sadly.


----------



## MattMatt

Andy, mate, I hope it works out well for you. But even if it doesn't, TAM will be here for you.


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## TRy

Andy01 said:


> - she works there one morning a week from about 9.30am to about 1.30pm.
> 
> - I've seen call logs for these times showing that they have talked on the phone which means he isn't there
> 
> - she does admin for him whilst he is out doing plumbing work.


 Unless she is on the phone with him every single minute, your call logs only show that most of the time that she is there he is out doing jobs. What it does not show is that he could see her some of the time either when she arrives or before she leaves. This is likely even if he was not flirting with her. The flirting only means that he sometimes made a point of seeing her.



Andy01 said:


> I know I seem pathetic and a wimp but I need more than just flirting to push me to do something. i don't just mean that i need proof of a physical affair, I mean I need to see sexually suggestive texts rather than just kisses (xxx) and references to having a bath or 'have you got a whole wardrobe of outfits'.


 Why exactly do you need more proof to protect your marriage? By the time that you have more proof it is too late. Did you know that most affairs go unnoticed by the spouse, because cheaters make a point of lying and trying not to get caught? The norm is that all the cheated on gets is some indication that something is wrong and they either act on this or not.

You do not have to be right to have her end all contact with the other man. The situation became unhealthy with the other man when they flirted so much that she deleted messages to hide them from you. She asked if you wanted her to quit, so tell her that upon refection you do want her to quit because the fact that they flirted cannot be undone. At 4 hours a week you do not need the money that badly; it should not be a big deal for to her quit. Also, if she is not emotionally involved with him, cutting off all contact with him should not be a big deal to her. If she resists this then you know that your gut was right and that there is something wrong.


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## bfree

Andy,

Lets just say you're right and all that has happened so far is sexy flirting. Doesn't that make it obvious that she and this other guy are attracted to each other? Haven't they already started interacting in an inappropriate way? You don't think putting her in his lap by allowing her to continue working there won't allow and even encourage things to escalate? Friend, I don't wont to be vulgar but why would you want to lay her on a bed and spread her legs for him? Get her the hell out of harm's way! Get her away from him or they will have sex. Will that be a deal breaker for you? Because if it is you should know that by keeping her there you are encouraging them to take this affair further. It has nothing to due with trusting her or not. It has everything to do with protecting her from her own weaknesses and the potential of making a catastrophic choice. Wake up!


----------



## ladybird

Cheaters will only tell you what they think you already know.. They won't tell you any more then that.


----------



## dogman

Momentum, Andy, momentum.

They have it. The flirting, the intimacy of her being at his house even though he's not there. He's divorced. 

The reason, so many times, it will escalate even though you've busted it s because of momentum.

They are in the natural progression of a relationship.

Next is consummation. Youre right she's not like that so she will regret it and beg forgiveness...eventually.

You need to be more selfish and state your needs...

Number 1- quit that job and go no contact.


----------



## Andy01

I appreciate that everyone is trying to give me good advice, the advice I have followed so far is:
1. Get a VAR - did this and didn't even hear a single conversation.
2. Confront with evidence - did this with evidence of flirting and was told that there was no more to it than that.

I no longer feel that anything is wrong (according to my gut).
I felt she was being sincere when she apologized.
We seem to have re-connected.

So my thoughts or questions are:
1. How could someone pretend to care/love if they are really seeing someone else? 
2. How long would someone realistically be able to keep up a pretense of caring?
3. At what point do you stop questioning and start trusting?
If they admit to flirting do you assume kissing, if they admit to kissing do you assume sex, if they admit to sex do you assume lots of sec and love?
Where does it end, I mean do you insist on every lurid detail and and analysis of good it made them feel?
Surely, the more you insist on knowing, the more difficult it is to get past it. If I was to be told details of sexual positions and number of orgasms I couldn't get past that!
I've asked if it was physical and was told it wasn't. Without proof to the contrary I fail to see what Moreno can do.

So anyway, I'll do the iPhone sync and if that doesn't reveal anything then I have to continue to assume that it was just a bit of flirting.
What I do know is that constantly snooping and not trusting makes me not like her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

So you are cool with your wife working with him, in his house after he sends her good night kisses? Your the only man or woman that would call that just flirting.

What's really going on that you can't ask her to quit a 4 hour job? How insecure can you be? Did she give you the controlling speech? Go to ************ and see how the cheaters convince their husbands nothing is going on.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Andy01 said:


> I appreciate that everyone is trying to give me good advice, the advice I have followed so far is:
> 1. Get a VAR - did this and didn't even hear a single conversation.
> 2. Confront with evidence - did this with evidence of flirting and was told that there was no more to it than that.
> 
> I no longer feel that anything is wrong (according to my gut).
> I felt she was being sincere when she apologized.
> We seem to have re-connected.
> 
> _All that you have done is to take her word for it that it was only flirting. To be blunt, you are a complete fool for doing that. As many, many others have already posted, there is almost certain to be much more that she is not telling you._
> 
> So my thoughts or questions are:
> 1. How could someone pretend to care/love if they are really seeing someone else?
> 
> _To keep the affair a secret, that's why. Because neither of them want the situation to become messy, especially if this guy has been having trouble in his marriage. _
> 
> 2. How long would someone realistically be able to keep up a pretense of caring?
> 
> _If they have gone underground with the affair, your wife can put on a face for a long time, especially if she is hatching plans with him._
> 
> 3. At what point do you stop questioning and start trusting?
> If they admit to flirting do you assume kissing, if they admit to kissing do you assume sex, if they admit to sex do you assume lots of sec and love?
> 
> _You do not assume it's just flirting. As another poster wrote, "My WW admitted to everything that I had already found out" . . . get the idea?_
> 
> Where does it end, I mean do you insist on every lurid detail and and analysis of good it made them feel?
> Surely, the more you insist on knowing, the more difficult it is to get past it. If I was to be told details of sexual positions and number of orgasms I couldn't get past that!
> 
> _Not knowing is usually worse, because you will fantasize about them doing it in every way that you two never did._
> 
> I've asked if it was physical and was told it wasn't. Without proof to the contrary I fail to see what Moreno can do.
> 
> _She's been deleting her emails, texts...she lied until you confronted her with evidence, THEN she admitted that oh, it was only a flirtation and he's never in the office. . . and you believe her?_
> 
> So anyway, I'll do the iPhone sync and if that doesn't reveal anything then I have to continue to assume that it was just a bit of flirting.
> What I do know is that constantly snooping and not trusting makes me not like her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because she is lying to you.


----------



## MrK

Hypothetical: you are 100% correct. It was a little flirting, a little lying, a little deceit. She got outed, feels HORRIBLE, and swears it's over. And it is (for now, at least).

She still had an affair with his man. How you can POSSIBLY think she can continue working for him is inconceivable to most (all) of us. The fact that she didn't just unilaterally quit is the most telling piece of evidence you have right now.

And I actually believe her. Women's brains work little differently than ours. She could actually BELIEVE that it was all just innocent flirting that will never go anywhere.

But it's not women's brains we're talking about here. It's men's brains (both of them). No man puts that kind of attention into a woman he doesn't want to screw. NO MAN. So, what do we have?

1 - A guy that's horny for your wife.
2 - A guy who has gotten signals that your wife may be horny for him.
3 - A guy has a woman he's pretty sure he has a chance with at his EMPTY house for 4 hours a day. Do you think there is ANY chance he stayed gone all day? ANY CHANCE? Me neither. So out of all of the little lies, you have a pretty big one where she claims there was no alone time together, when there was surely a LOT.

She needs to quit this job. That is obvious to everyone. I don't know what is more telling: that you won't insist on it or that she won't just do it. How is it POSSIBLE she is still working for him? How is it POSSIBLE you are OK with it?


----------



## walkonmars

Andy, read what this girl wrote about how she started her affair with a married man (MM) and cheated on her long-time boy friend.



> ···I was talking to my-then-BF on phone when MM and I had just begun our working friendship. BF notices I had begun speaking about MM frequently during our review-of-the-day calls, and made an inquiry as to what the guy is like. BF seems settled by the innocent exchange of support MM is providing for me.
> 
> Time passes. I mention to BF that MM and I have a lot of common interests and "Isn't that interesting? How cool is that?". BF makes comment about how he didn't like how MM got to spend time alone with me but recognized I needed his company as my life was crumbling and MM was central to helping keep it afloat. More time passes. BF and I are talking more but seeing each other less. I tell BF that MM gave me a hug during our work together. BF says it's comforting to know I have a friend like MM.
> 
> All the while, I unwittingly sh1t-tested my BF. I always told him about MM's interactions with me, I kept very open and honest about our conversations and BF just went with it. BF trusted me but he also was not defending his "territory". I smelled weakness and I was tired of weakness. So tired of having to hold everything up under my own power and not getting any help from him. Superwoman has to rest sometime, am I right?
> 
> Looking back, BF had it within him to save that sinking (relation)ship. Yes, I could have had more control and not waved my arms for rescue whenever I spotted MMs life raft. If the person you love isn't willing to throw you a life preserver when you're waving your arms? You swim towards the life raft.


Andy this girl shyt-tested her bf and he failed.

(shyt test = a hard time is given to see how much shyt they will eat. More = wimpy & unworthy)


----------



## Chaparral

Whether or not your wife is cheating, she IS following the cheating wife script to a tee. There is also a script the betrayed spouse who is in denial follows. You are following that script to a tee.

Coincidence?


----------



## Disenchanted

MrK said:


> 1 - A guy that's horny for your wife.
> 2 - A guy who has gotten signals that your wife may be horny for him.
> 3 - A guy has a woman he's pretty sure he has a chance with at his EMPTY house for 4 hours a day. Do you think there is ANY chance he stayed gone all day? ANY CHANCE? Me neither. So out of all of the little lies, you have a pretty big one where she claims there was no alone time together, when there was surely a LOT


THIS!!! HOLY SH!T!!!!!!! :iagree:

Dude, this guy is after your wife! Let's assume she is being honest with you (my wife didn't think she'd screw the guy that was after her either). At this point does that even matter? 

You can get into your wife's head (maybe) and you can let her convince you that it is not her intention to escalate this thing, but if there is a man chasing her and neither of you are stopping it then she is testing you.

A dedicated wife would walk out the door the very second her boss flirted with her, and never look back.

Don't be a cuckhold, your wife will leave you if you do. Women don't want their men to be willing to share them, it devalues the woman.


----------



## Disenchanted

Andy01 said:


> Without proof to the contrary I fail to see what Moreno can do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Simple, just let her know that you ARE NOT COMFORTABLE WITH HER WORKING FOR THIS MAN.

That's all.


----------



## Disenchanted

I was laying in bed thinking about this thread last night. I realized that even without the cutsie little "xxxx" attached, it would NEVER be appropriate for a male boss to tell his married female employee "nite nite".

EVER.


----------



## Shaggy

The fact is you confronted your wife. she's done her sorry saying, but there is still the fact that this guy is on the prowl and she is in his sights.

He already has gotten her to betray the marriage by secretly texting him, and hiding it from you. He got her to give her loyalty to him as higher than her loyalty to you.

He got her to cross the line.

And now you've had your talk and sent her back to him for him to continue to work on.

This won't end well on it's current path.


----------



## JMGrey

Shaggy said:


> The fact is you confronted your wife. she's done her sorry saying, but there is still the fact that this guy is on the prowl and she is in his sights.
> 
> He already has gotten her to betray the marriage by secretly texting him, and hiding it from you. He got her to give her loyalty to him as higher than her loyalty to you.
> 
> He got her to cross the line.
> 
> And now you've had your talk and sent her back to him for him to continue to work on.
> 
> This won't end well on it's current path.


You're a good guy, Shag, but it's no use. Sometimes it takes the PA to shake the BS out of the fog. I have the sad feeling that that'll be the case here.


----------



## TRy

Andy01 said:


> So anyway, I'll do the iPhone sync and if that doesn't reveal anything then I have to continue to assume that it was just a bit of flirting.


 You have more than just than just flirting. You also have active secrecy about her communications with the other man. You stated in your first post the following:

"• Since I mentioned having concerns over the plumber she deletes all texts and phone records.
• She now has the phone on silent and it rarely ever leaves her side, she has also set it so that messages don’t show a preview.
• She went to Toys r us a week or so ago and spent half an hour in a car park on the way (I left my iPhone in the car and tracked her. I confronted her, she said she had just needed space but had phoned the plumber whilst there ‘about work’. She would have lied about the stop off if I hadn’t had the proof."

If she had nothing to hide, why is she actively hiding her communications with the other man? Flirting plus secrecy means that they have an inappropriate relationship where they are on the inside and you her husband are on the outside. Even if you are wrong, she must acknowledge your concern and make you feel safe. Based on just the flirting and the active secrecy you should demand that she go full no contact with the other man as well as full transparency into all communications, which includes all passwords and no deleting of messages or records. Do this now. Even if there is only a small chance that you are right, why take any chance with your marraige for a job that your wife does not really need?


----------



## 3putt

Disenchanted said:


> Simple, just let her know that you ARE NOT COMFORTABLE WITH HER WORKING FOR THIS MAN.
> 
> That's all.


I would take it a step further than that. Give her an ultimatum.

Choice 1) You and your marriage
Choice 2) The job and contact with plumber boy.

Period


----------



## tom67

3putt said:


> I would take it a step further than that. Give her an ultimatum.
> 
> Choice 1) You and your marriage
> Choice 2) The job and contact with plumber boy.
> 
> Period


:iagree:Simple and to the point:iagree:


----------



## Disenchanted

I've reread this thread and realize that it's pretty much 12 pages of the exact same advice. (lose the job)

I finally understand why some posters got exasperated with me. It took 20 pages of hearing the same thing over and over again before it started to sink in for me.

I believe that you've probably turned your wife's thinking around, but you have no control over her boss's thinking. It's an imminent threat to your marriage.

Best of luck Andy, I have become too emotionally invested in your story to continue reading it.


----------



## alte Dame

Married couples should be a united front in supporting and protecting their marriage and life together. If a tornado is headed your way, you work together to get out of its way, to protect the home and kids.

This isn't about you vs. her. This isn't about you snooping. This is about a credible threat to your life together.

Any woman, no matter how dedicated a wife, will be flattered by an attractive man's attention. Any woman. If the attention escalates and goes beyond the innocent, many, many women will be drawn in.

No matter what your W's feelings for you or her intentions, things can happen that then threaten your marriage.

Why would you fail to do the simplest thing you can do to ensure your marriage's security? Why would you two not decide together that she should not be near that house or that man?

In this case, if things blow up in your face, you will both be to blame because you both made very conscious decisions to sit there with your fingers crossed as the storm approached.


----------



## 3putt

alte Dame said:


> Married couples should be a united front in supporting and protecting their marriage and life together. If a tornado is headed your way, you work together to get out of its way, to protect the home and kids.
> 
> This isn't about you vs. her. This isn't about you snooping. This is about a credible threat to your life together.
> 
> Any woman, no matter how dedicated a wife, will be flattered by an attractive man's attention. Any woman. If the attention escalates and goes beyond the innocent, many, many women will be drawn in.
> 
> No matter what your W's feelings for you or her intentions, things can happen that then threaten your marriage.
> 
> Why would you fail to do the simplest thing you can do to ensure your marriage's security? Why would you two not decide together that she should not be near that house or that man?
> 
> In this case, *if* things blow up in your face, you will both be to blame because you both made very conscious decisions to sit there with your fingers crossed as the storm approached.


Agree with everything but the word _*if*_. I would've used *when*.


----------



## alte Dame

3putt said:


> Agree with everything but the word _*if*_. I would've used *when*.


I stand corrected.


----------



## sandc

Andy,
Just do one thing. Tell her to quit her job with the plumber. Just that one thing. See what happens.


----------



## diwali123

OP you seem extremely naive and codependent. Read the threads here, you will see almost every one includes a cheating spouse who was loving and caring. It's very typical for them to become more affectionate and even up the sex when they think they are getting caught. 
I would insist she not work for him anymore. Get a backbone, be alpha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Disenchanted said:


> I've reread this thread and realize that it's pretty much 12 pages of the exact same advice. (lose the job)
> 
> I finally understand why some posters got exasperated with me. It took 20 pages of hearing the same thing over and over again before it started to sink in for me.
> 
> I believe that you've probably turned your wife's thinking around, but you have no control over her boss's thinking. It's an imminent threat to your marriage.
> 
> Best of luck Andy, I have become too emotionally invested in your story to continue reading it.


This, I am surprised the posters haven't become much more shrill. Having seen this over and over its hard to sit and watch with out being able to run over and jerk the victim off of the tracks. Who would think it would be this hard to watch someone else screw up their life? All people here want to do is save someone else and yet can actually do nothing even when things are so obvious.

Andy, we all hope and pray you are right. If you are, you will be the second one in a year and a half I have been here that found nothing going on. The difference is that the other poster investigated, even walked out on his wife, and proved to himself what was going on. You pretty much only aske a possible cheater if she was cheating and accepted her answer. Now that has never happened here that I know of.

The weird thing is, she offered to quit the job, and Andy could not bring himself to pull the trigger. That gave them a geen light.


----------



## 3putt

chapparal said:


> The weird thing is, she offered to quit the job, and Andy could not bring himself to pull the trigger. That gave them a geen light.


Wait...wut???? Haven't been on this thread the whole time, but she offered to quit her job and *he* declined????


----------



## Chaparral

3putt said:


> Wait...wut???? Haven't been on this thread the whole time, but she offered to quit her job and *he* declined????


I know, epic fail. Bending over backward to not be controlling. Controlling, the word thrown out to control you. I just wish someone would say it to me. LMAO


----------



## 3putt

chapparal said:


> I know, epic fail. Bending over backward to not be controlling. Controlling, the word thrown out to control you. I just wish someone would say it to me. LMAO


I do believe epic fail has just been redefined.

Holy freakin' cow!


----------



## tom67

3putt said:


> I do believe epic fail has just been redefined.
> 
> Holy freakin' cow!


Yea I think elvis has left the building.


----------



## Chaparral

Just to make it clear. If a man sent my wife kisses good night, I would pick up her phone, my phone, the landline and I would be on my way to his house. Confrontation isn't the word.


----------



## 3putt

chapparal said:


> Just to make it clear. If a man sent my wife kisses good night, I would pick up her phone, my phone, the landline and I would be on my way to his house. Confrontation isn't the word.


You had better friggin believe it!


----------



## Wiserforit

Andy01 said:


> So my thoughts or questions are:
> 1. How could someone pretend to care/love if they are really seeing someone else?


This is a question? Really? If this has to be explained, you aren't capable of getting it. 

Because you are watching it happen. 




> 2. How long would someone realistically be able to keep up a pretense of caring?


So long as you are the obedient cuckold she's going to be approving of you forever. 



> 3. At what point do you stop questioning and start trusting?
> If they admit to flirting do you assume kissing, if they admit to kissing do you assume sex, if they admit to sex do you assume lots of sec and love?
> Where does it end, I mean do you insist on every lurid detail and and analysis of good it made them feel?
> Surely, the more you insist on knowing, the more difficult it is to get past it. If I was to be told details of sexual positions and number of orgasms I couldn't get past that!
> I've asked if it was physical and was told it wasn't. Without proof to the contrary I fail to see what Moreno can do.


You haven't come to grips with what you've already seen so this is putting the cart before the horse.

"night night XXX" and lying about things - you aren't doing your spouse a favor by enabling bad acts. If you saw them stealing from the store you would protect them from destructive behavior even if it wasn't you being transgressed against. 

The fact there are cell phone calls between the two of them while he is out of the house, sheesh - I can well imagine: "I'm done with the accounting. Ready to have you clean my pipes out..."

How long does it take? A matter of minutes, not hours. And that text message is exactly what you would send afterwards as a little thank you.


----------



## walkonmars

Andy maybe you missed my post. It was longish. Here's the important part of how a woman started down a road to cheating. 

_*"(He) trusted me but he also was not defending his "territory". I smelled weakness and I was tired of weakness. So tired of having to hold everything up under my own power and not getting any help from him."*_

I smell something from here Andy. Get rid of the stench.


----------



## naga75

chapparal said:


> I know, epic fail. Bending over backward to not be controlling. Controlling, the word thrown out to control you. I just wish someone would say it to me. LMAO


Woo hoo me too and watch the volcano erupt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Remains

Andy, this has been said before, but I will repeat.

A woman does NOT flirt with a man unless she finds him ATTRACTIVE! 

Ok?


----------



## tom67

Remains said:


> Andy, this has been said before, but I will repeat.
> 
> A woman does NOT flirt with a man unless she finds him ATTRACTIVE!
> 
> Ok?


I think you are whipping a dead horse I wish that wasn't the case.


----------



## Remains

Yes, I think you are right. It is so frustrating to see someone know what is going on but talk himself out of it each time. 

Andy I wish you luck but I advise very seriously that you seek counselling to deal with your inferiority issues, your lack of surety in yourself, your lack of assertiveness. Otherwise you will find that people will regularly walk over you throughout your life. And that is not a positive thing.


----------



## Humble Pie

Andy you admitted on your first post i think... you are weak and do not want to confront (or had issues doing so). This reciepe my friend with your wife will fail. 

Your wife knows you, knew you wouldnt make her quit her job because she likes it. 

You know she deliberately deleted texts, and you will not confront her because she will tell you, "I did it so you wouldnt be mad" so you leave it alone... I agree Andy you need some help.


----------



## Andy01

Another up-date.
I'll keep it short, there's not much I can say... I have gained access to her phone records. I can see back to when she got the phone; 22 September 2012.

Texts to Plumber: 
17th Oct - 14th Nov = 888 texts
15th Nov - 14th Dec = 531 texts
15th Dec - 09th Jan = 112 texts.

Times range from 7am to 11pm (why she was taking phone to bathroom).

Texts to me during this period = 208 (108 since 15th Dec)

There have only been 7 since I talked to her on Boxing Day. I hope this means that she has seen sense.

Just one question that I would like opinions on:

Q - should I confront now or wait till I can get the deleted texts from her phone?

If I confront now i will have nothing new except for volume of texts, she will still say 'just harmless fun.

I'd quite like a femal perspective on this as well please, I don't use my phone much but know that women tend to be more communicative so if i could have a take on how often you might text a friend that would help.

I expect a verbal kicking and I guess I deserve it.


----------



## Andy01

Missed:

22 Sept - 15 Oct = 582 texts


----------



## tom67

Andy01 said:


> Another up-date.
> I'll keep it short, there's not much I can say... I have gained access to her phone records. I can see back to when she got the phone; 22 September 2012.
> 
> Texts to Plumber:
> 17th Oct - 14th Nov = 888 texts
> 15th Nov - 14th Dec = 531 texts
> 15th Dec - 09th Jan = 112 texts.
> 
> Times range from 7am to 11pm (why she was taking phone to bathroom).
> 
> Texts to me during this period = 208 (108 since 15th Dec)
> 
> There have only been 7 since I talked to her on Boxing Day. I hope this means that she has seen sense.
> 
> Just one question that I would like opinions on:
> 
> Q - should I confront now or wait till I can get the deleted texts from her phone?
> 
> If I confront now i will have nothing new except for volume of texts, she will still say 'just harmless fun.
> 
> I'd quite like a femal perspective on this as well please, I don't use my phone much but know that women tend to be more communicative so if i could have a take on how often you might text a friend that would help.
> 
> I expect a verbal kicking and I guess I deserve it.


Go ahead and confront that amount of texting isn't acceptable way too much imo.


----------



## alte Dame

Female perspective here - Not just friends!!!


----------



## tom67

Did she quit her job?


----------



## tom67

Sigh- check for a second phone!


----------



## 3putt

Andy01 said:


> I'd quite like a femal perspective on this as well please, I don't use my phone much but know that women tend to be more communicative so if i could have a take on how often you might text a friend that would help.
> 
> I expect a verbal kicking and I guess I deserve it.


Andy, you don't need a female perspective to see what's going on here. Plumber boy isn't having these constant texts with your wife without expecting something in return. Men don't just do this for the chuckles.

He's either well on the way to getting it or maintaining the dialogue to keep getting it.

It really is that simple. Pull your head out of your ass.


----------



## tom67

Take her for a polygraph test. At least tell her this and see how she reacts. I think you will get your answer!


----------



## Chaparral

Even worse than I thought . Cheaters text a lot. I thiunk they are seeing each other more tha the four hours. They think the have you fooled now though thy will be more careful.

So extremely sorry for your pain. You should see your MD for a little medicinal help.

Hoped this was caught in the bud. I'm guessing its been physical for a long time. Thats why she drew away.

Do not confront yet if you can get the deleted messages.

Again so sorry and prayers for your family.

Chap


----------



## Chaparral

What about phone calls to his number? Would a VAR be in order for her car?

If she has an Iphone this may help (can't remember)iPhone Backup Extractor for Windows and Mac


----------



## Chaparral

Damn it


----------



## sandc

Please don't confront until you have the deleted texts in hand. You will know exactly what you are dealing with at that time. 

You need to search her purse or car for another phone. Since the texts have dropped off it means she most like has purchased what is know as a burner phone. She is using that to communicate with him now. He probably bought it for her so you wouldn't see the charge. He told her that they are just innocently flirting and there is no reason to get you upset. 

Please Andy, this is anything but innocent. Your wife at the very least is getting played. At most she is way into it.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Andy01 said:


> I'd quite like a femal perspective on this as well please, I don't use my phone much but know that women tend to be more communicative so if i could have a take on how often you might text a friend that would help.


Think this one through for a moment. If you assume that women tend to be more communicative, what does that say about: 1) her communication with you; and 2) the OM's communication with her. The "communicative woman" is sending a ton of texts to him and not to you. The "uncommunicative OM" is engaging in a lot of communication with your wife.

You are trying so hard to ignore what is plainly before your eyes. Stop working so hard at it.


----------



## Disenchanted

It's time for you to decide whether a physical affair would be a breaking point for you. 

If it is don't bother wasting your time and sanity trying to prove anything.

It was (most likely _is_) physical and this is not speculation.

If a PA is not a breaking point for you you'd better start seeing an IC and an MD *NOW*.

You are on the roughest road I've ever traveled, and I really feel for you. Hang in there my friend, and I am so sorry.


----------



## happyman64

Get the texts!

Review the texts.

Then confront.

And take care of yourself while you are doing this.


----------



## old timer

happyman64 said:


> Get the texts!
> 
> Review the texts.
> 
> Then confront.
> 
> And take care of yourself while you are doing this.


I agree. Retrieve the deleted messages and read them before confronting, or she can say it was work-related, innocent flirting. Yada, yada, yada.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Andy01

There are not that many calls, those that had been made were usually whilst I was at work so need for her to hide in the car. 
I think I'll try the VAR again just to see.
I searched whilst she was out today an found nothing.

She worked for him on Tuesday, he sent her a text later thanking her for all her hard work. I'm beginning to shake. Think I need a walk and some time out the house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sandc

And please, once you have the texts, don't wave them in her face first thing and ask her to explain. 

Ask her calmly one more time if there is anything going on. DO not let her know you have the texts. *NEVER EVER EVER EVER* reveal your sources of information.

*NEVER.*


----------



## walkonmars

Andy...

she
is
in 
his
house
every work day

The VAR? useful but read the lines above. There's a clue in there.


----------



## sandc

The VAR would be very useful if you could somehow get it to his house and then retrieve it safely. Does your wife have a big purse? Satchel? Something you could hide a small VAR in?


----------



## tom67

sandc said:


> The VAR would be very useful if you could somehow get it to his house and then retrieve it safely. Does your wife have a big purse? Satchel? Something you could hide a small VAR in?


Yes go buy a pen var and stick it in her purse jerry123 did this


----------



## Chaparral

Andy01 said:


> There are not that many calls, those that had been made were usually whilst I was at work so need for her to hide in the car.
> I think I'll try the VAR again just to see.
> I searched whilst she was out today an found nothing.
> 
> She worked for him on Tuesday, he sent her a text later thanking her for all her hard work. I'm beginning to shake. Think I need a walk and some time out the house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's a plumber. She has several part time jobs. They could be meeting up anywhere anytime. You need the texts bad to see how bad it is. 

Did Andy say she had an I phone or am I cross threaded again?


----------



## Andy01

She has an iPhone 4s
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Disenchanted

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2594591?start=0&tstart=0


----------



## Will_Kane

Andy01 said:


> Another up-date.
> I'll keep it short, there's not much I can say... I have gained access to her phone records. I can see back to when she got the phone; 22 September 2012.
> 
> Texts to Plumber:
> 17th Oct - 14th Nov = 888 texts
> 15th Nov - 14th Dec = 531 texts
> 15th Dec - 09th Jan = 112 texts.
> 
> Times range from 7am to 11pm (why she was taking phone to bathroom).
> 
> Texts to me during this period = 208 (108 since 15th Dec)
> 
> There have only been 7 since I talked to her on Boxing Day. I hope this means that she has seen sense.
> 
> Just one question that I would like opinions on:
> 
> Q - should I confront now or wait till I can get the deleted texts from her phone?
> 
> If I confront now i will have nothing new except for volume of texts, she will still say 'just harmless fun.
> 
> I'd quite like a femal perspective on this as well please, I don't use my phone much but know that women tend to be more communicative so if i could have a take on how often you might text a friend that would help.
> 
> I expect a verbal kicking and I guess I deserve it.


Did you say she worked there ONE DAY A WEEK?

WOW!!!

nite nite xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Will_Kane

Confront now. 

Who cares what lame excuse she has?

Go back and read carmen ohio's post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## carmen ohio

Disenchanted said:


> It's time for you to decide whether a physical affair would be a breaking point for you.
> 
> If it is don't bother wasting your time and sanity trying to prove anything.
> 
> It was (most likely _is_) physical and this is not speculation.
> 
> If a PA is not a breaking point for you you'd better start seeing an IC and an MD *NOW*.
> 
> You are on the roughest road I've ever traveled, and I really feel for you. Hang in there my friend, and I am so sorry.


You're right Disenchanted. 2113 texts in 3 1/2 months. That's nearly 20 a day including weekends. It's hard to imagine that Andy01's wife in not in a PA with the plumber. Either that or he's the busiest plumber in the UK.


----------



## turnera

Have you asked his wife what SHE thinks?


----------



## Wiserforit

Andy01 said:


> I expect a verbal kicking and I guess I deserve it.


You are providing a service nevertheless to demonstrate how blind people can be about their spouse. 

In your case it appears you could walk in on him boning your wife on the desk and accept whatever excuse they make. I keep watching you say "She will say nothing is going on..."

Well duh. That's why you stop listening to them and start taking action. Sure, get ahold of the deleted texts. But you are still going to minimize those, explain them away, call black white and doormat your way through this.

Until you pull your head out of your butt, champ. We've all been there. So this isn't a personal attack to put you down. This is the wisdom of experience. The amount of sex they are having is proportional to the texts. These texts are an "infatuation meter". 

As we said, she's gone deeper underground. I hired a private investigator. He stood under a window and listened in on them, and I got reports on all of it. They almost caught him once but he pretended to be looking for his dog.


----------



## old timer

Beating a dead horse here, folks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

carmen ohio said:


> You're right Disenchanted. 2113 texts in 3 1/2 months.


 That is a whole lot of texts for a 4 hour a week job. Clearly most of the deleted texts were not about work. This is text book emotional affair (EA) numbers, so it is at least an EA.

The fact that she deleted texts means that she is OK with communicating with him behind your back and would be OK with taking it underground. Texts sent using other apps such as Word with Friends would not show up in your text log. You need to end this now. What more do you need a video of them in bed together at his house? At this rate, by the time that you have enough evidence, one of you will no longer want to stay in the marraige. She needs to quit the job and agree to full no contact right now.


----------



## Chaparral

old timer said:


> Beating a dead horse here, folks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think Andy has got it now, just trying to deal with the shock and a plan.


----------



## Chaparral

If he doesn't have the texts, she is going to blameshift , gaslight etc. etc.

Of course the texts are likely going to send a knife in his back.

Does your wife realize something is off Andy?


----------



## 3putt

chapparal said:


> If he doesn't have the texts, she is going to blameshift , gaslight etc. etc.
> 
> Of course the texts are likely going to send a knife in his back.
> 
> Does your wife realize something is off Andy?


I concur. These revelations are brutal. Andy, get those texts and come back here first before exposing. We can help you make this airtight with no wiggle room for your WW or sh!t sifter. I know this is tough, but now it's time to toughen up. Brace yourself, but also keep in mind that everyone that is talking to you right now has been there, done that, and survived. And you will too, no matter what happens.

And to add to what Chap asked about her possibly knowing something is off, go into James Bond mode. Be very cool and actually engaging with her. Don't tip your hand if you can at all help it. I know it's tough to consider, but it will be your best bet at maximum impact when it's time to not be not so cool.

Get your info and come back.

Hang in there, partner.


----------



## naga75

carmen ohio said:


> You're right Disenchanted. 2113 texts in 3 1/2 months. That's nearly 20 a day including weekends. It's hard to imagine that Andy01's wife in not in a PA with the plumber. Either that or he's the busiest plumber in the UK.


My wife had that many between her an posom in a month!
Better get a handle on it andy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

It's almost 2 am there.


----------



## weightlifter

Damn. Was thinking we FINALLY had a more smoke than fire case.


----------



## MattMatt

carmen ohio said:


> You're right Disenchanted. 2113 texts in 3 1/2 months. That's nearly 20 a day including weekends. It's hard to imagine that Andy01's wife in not in a PA with the plumber. Either that or he's the busiest plumber in the UK.


When does this plumber have any time to do any work, what with all the damn texting?


----------



## Andy01

She was asking if I was OK last night, I blamed my quietness on the cold I have at the moment. 
I talked before about how much you should really want to know and the effect it has on you, I have been analysing her text records to the point of obsessiveness, e.g. I now know how many texts there were on each day and the time for each so it’s clear she was texting first thing in the morning and last thing at night.
I used to think that she took her phone with her in the evening when she went for a bath to stop me looking, now it’s clear that she was texting him.
Our wedding anniversary was 29th October, she gave me a nice card with a nice message, she text him 41 times from 9.57am to 11.28pm. 
I’ve looked at other days too, I can’t help myself. It hurts, I don’t know if I can handle seeing the texts.
I want this to be over, I’m at work, I can’t concentrate, and this is all consuming.
How can you possibly act as if everything is ok whilst waiting to get more info? Part of me feels like I don’t even want to let her hold my hand and another part wants to hold on to her for dear life and sob.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Andy01 said:


> She was asking if I was OK last night, I blamed my quietness on the cold I have at the moment.
> I talked before about how much you should really want to know and the effect it has on you, I have been analysing her text records to the point of obsessiveness, e.g. I now know how many texts there were on each day and the time for each so it’s clear she was texting first thing in the morning and last thing at night.
> I used to think that she took her phone with her in the evening when she went for a bath to stop me looking, now it’s clear that she was texting him.
> Our wedding anniversary was 29th October, she gave me a nice card with a nice message, she text him 41 times from 9.57am to 11.28pm.
> I’ve looked at other days too, I can’t help myself. It hurts, I don’t know if I can handle seeing the texts.
> I want this to be over, I’m at work, I can’t concentrate, and this is all consuming.
> How can you possibly act as if everything is ok whilst waiting to get more info? Part of me feels like I don’t even want to let her hold my hand and another part wants to hold on to her for dear life and sob.


Be strong bro. You sound like you've reached the moment of realization, and that's is the most painful time of all.

Stay the course. Don't confront yet. Gather the info first.


----------



## Andy01

The good thing is, now that I know the extent of the texting I feel abit braver about taking action so I'm going to:

- look for deleted texts this weekend, if I have to I'll just take the phone out of her bag and do it.

- put the VAR in her bag on Tuesday when she goes to work. It's a USB one but she has quite a large bag with a lot of junk in it so it's unlikely she'll notice. And if she does, so what?

Then I'll confront with whatever I have.


----------



## Wiserforit

Andy01 said:


> Our wedding anniversary was 29th October, she gave me a nice card with a nice message, she text him 41 times from 9.57am to 11.28pm.


Maybe we're starting to turn a corner here?

This is a no-brainer. Forget about the sex they're having and just consider what kind of betrayal it is to be tending your boyfriend through the entire day of your anniversary.

What was the longest gap she could go without texting her boyfriend on your anniversary? Did she make it a whole hour at any point during the day?


----------



## Hoosier

Andy, sorry For your pain. I know what you are going thru, I like you would analyze and analyze information trying hard to process it all. My xw had an affair with a good friend. (we divorced and they were married 6 months later) I had no idea it was going on, after I discovered the A I found that six months earlier on Christmas eve she had had sex with me then texted him. Went to bed and texted him the first thing Christmas morning....I had to take the day off work to let it process. What I am saying is I know your pain, I have been there and survived. Take care of yourself! Work out! Get some new clothes! Prepare to be on your own, as without TRUE remorse from her, that is where you are going to be. Remember that you control no one but yourself. You do not control her BUT she does not control you, you are responsible for you. Get some IC arranged...be strong! Come here often many good people to help you thru.


----------



## Jasel

Maybe you should just hire a PI to do the heavy lifting for you. As far as gathering evidence is concerned anyway.


----------



## Lazarus

Cut her finances. Let her live on her own for a while and stop being a doormat. She will soon realise OM isn't a doormat.

You neglected her and realised this but she should have realised that you were being a decent man providing for your family and helping elderly family. Communication obviously not high on the agenda and if she had been reminded of all that you were doing then things could have been better. To feel neglected is one thing but to run off and share and betray all your life together with OM is another. 

You see cheaters are easily influenced. They listen to cheaters other people who are also betraying their family. 

You should consider cold turkey. Give her all the freedom she wants with other man or tell her its you and the kids or OM but not both.

Texting OM on your anniversay is way out of order and she is playing games with your head. Time to man up and stop feeling guilty for the time your bosses had you over worked.

The problem is people are shackled in chains working way too much whilst the bosses slink off early. 

Acknowledge the neglect and make amends but if she aint rising to the challenge then its her loss, not yours. Remember, she's cheatin and betraying you and she doesn't deserve YOUR respect! End of...


----------



## Chaparral

*originally posted by carmen ohio:

While I greatly respect the other posters on this thread, I believe many of them, like you, are missing the big picture here -- namely, what should you do to regain your happiness.

From reading your notes, it is clear that you were absent from class the day they handed out the "how to be happy" instructions. So let me fill you in on The 10 Rules for Happiness:

Rule No. 1: You only get one life; never forget that. Corollary: You don't know how long you will live, you could live another 50 years or you might die tomorrow; never forget that either.

Rule No. 2: Deal with things as they really are, not as you would like them to be. Face up to your problems rather than pretending they don't exist or hoping they will simply go away.

Rule No. 3: You are solely responsible for your own happiness: don't expect or look to others to make you happy.

Rule No. 4: Your decisions and actions will have the greatest impact on your happiness. If you do the right things, your life will be better and vice versa. Corollary: Be honest with yourself about your failings and genuinely seek to improve yourself.

Rule No. 5: There is no guarantee that you will always be happy: some people win life's lottery, most don't and some people get the shaft. Corollary 1: Don't complain about the cards you are dealt or wallow in self-pity. Instead, focus on what you can control and learn not to worry about the rest. Corollary 2: Understand that it sometimes takes time and effort to regain your happiness.

Rule No. 6: Understand what makes you happy and what doesn't. Corollary 1: Since you will change over time, reconsider from time to time what will make you happy now and adjust your decisions and actions accordingly. Corollary 2: When something happens that makes you very unhappy, consider the totality of the situation: sometimes cutting down a few trees is the answer, other times you need to look for a new forest in which to live.

Rule No. 7: Do what makes you happy. Don't do what others (parents, friends, bosses, spouses, even children) want you to do unless it is what makes you happy. This might sound selfish but it's not. Some people are happiest when they are serving others (e.g., firemen, Mother Teresa). 

Rule No. 8: If you are unhappy about something, eliminate it from your life or, if that is not possible, minimize the degree of unhappiness it can cause you. If it's a situation (like a bad job), change it. If it's a thing (like a poorly operating car), get rid of it. If it's a person (like a wayward spouse), stop interacting or least minimize contact with the person. Corollary: When something or someone starts to cause you unhappiness, take action immediately; don't wait around hoping things will get better.

Rule No. 9: You don't apologize to anyone for doing what makes you happy. Corollary: You have no obligation to explain yourself or justify your decisions or actions. If you choose to do so, it should only be because it is to your advantage to do so.

Rule No. 10: Be the best person you can be, as you measure things. For most men, this means being fit and attractive to members of the opposite sex, being financially successfully and being emotionally strong and independent. But if you measure life success differently (e.g., displaying Christian virtues, gaining notoriety, acquiring power), then make these the main focus of you efforts.

If we apply these rules to your situation, it become readily apparent that you are breaking all the rules. For example:

☻ You are focused in the moment rather than thinking about how you want to live the rest of your life (violation of Rule No. 1). 

☻ You are more concerned about what your W may or may not have done rather than dealing with what you know she has done (violation of Rule No. 2).

☻ You seek affirmation from your W of your self-worth and the guidance of strangers as to what you should do, rather than taking responsibility for yourself (violation of Rule Nos. 3, 4 and 9).

☻ You are reluctant to take steps to improve your situation and instead are wallowing in self-pity and shame (violation of Rule Nos. 5, 7, 8 and 10).

☻ You seem not to have thought deeply about what you really want out of life (violation of Rule No. 6). 

☻ You reject the notion that your life may have to radically change in order for you to (eventually) be happy (another violation of Rule No. 6).

Based on the facts as you have recited them, I believe you have ample reason to be unhappy in your current circumstances and sufficient justification for taking action. So let me offer you an alternative approach to your problem that is consistent with the Rules of Happiness:

1. Sit your W down and tell her that you are so unhappy with your marriage that you are prepared to end it. Explain that, given what you know (OM's note, her hiding her phone messages, etc.), you can only conclude that either she is having an affair or that she doesn't care about you (as these are the only two reasons why she would not have taken steps to address your concerns when you first raised them). Say that, in either case, you would rather end your marriage than continue it since you deserve and are confident that you can have better than what you have right now.

2. Tell her that, out of love for her and your children, you are willing to give her one last chance to save her marriage and prove to you that she is a worthy wife. This requires her telling you everything that has happened between her and her boss, showing you all of her e-mails and text messages, giving you access to all of her communications in the future, immediately terminating all contact with her boss, demonstrating by word and deed on a daily basis that she loves and respects you and doing whatever else you require for her to prove her worth.

3. Tell her that it is her choice whether to do these things or not but, if she chooses not to, you plan to hire an attorney and file for divorce.

4. Stay calm and collected and don't argue with her. If she questions or challenges anything you say, calmly reply that she now knows what you expect of her and it is up to her to decide what she wants to do. Repeat your message as many times as necessary until she realizes that you mean what you say.

5. Give her a very short period of time to consider this. For example, tell her that you plan to speak to an attorney the next day so, if she wants to save her marriage, she has but a few hours to accept your offer.

6. If she refuses, immediately speak to an attorney and commence divorce proceedings.

7. If she agrees, continue to monitor her closely to make sure she does not go underground. Don't tolerate her complaining or pouting for more than a couple of days. If you get any indication that she is not serious about following through with her promise, start divorce proceedings.

8. For the foreseeable future, be cordial toward your W but nothing more. Don't initiate conversations, compliment her, argue with her or do anything else that would lead her to believe that she is anything special to you. Act at all times like a man who knows what he wants and knows that he can get what he wants, if not from her, then somewhere else.

9. Begin to take steps to improve yourself (exercise, work, activities). Make this -- along with your kids -- the focus of your life for now.

10. Start to educate yourself on what it takes to be a man in the 21st century. A good place to start is to read "The Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay.

If you take these steps, I can't guarantee that you will end up in a happy marriage with your current W but I can promise that, eventually, you will give yourself the greatest chance of finding true happiness. The key point is that you can't control your W but you can control you. Hence, you should be doing the things that will eventually make you happy, whether your W wants to be with you or not.

I'm not saying any of this will be easy; it may be the hardest thing you will ever have to do. But unless you do it, your life will likely only get worse.

Wishing the best for you.*


----------



## Disenchanted

Andy I really feel for you right now. When I retrieved my WW's text history I tried to not let her know. I did not know about TAM at that point.

I was able to keep it up for a day or two but I finally couldn't take it anymore and pulled out 50+ pages of text history printed out and confronted her with it. She just gave me a blank stare and it got me nowhere. What it did do though was provide me with the resolve to get to the truth.

I simply outsmarted her and got her to admit to her affair through manipulation and mind games. It wasn't easy but it was lucky.

I guess my point is, you know she is involved in an affair but confronting with just the text history may not get you the closure you would hope for.

Like I said earlier, you should try to decide whether a PA is the final straw for you. I know you are in shock and can't think straight today so that answer may not come easily. I'm very sorry for what you are going through. When you confirm your fears please be prepared for total emotional and mental breakdown. Go for a run, lift some weights, talk to friends and family and try your best to take care of yourself.

And keep coming back here for support. We're all pulling for you.


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## sandc

Steady on Andy. Just a little while more. Get the texts. You need to read them. You need to know what you're dealing with. It will either be a great relief or it will ... not.


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## StickMan1

I know we always talk about the 'scripts' and all but it still never ceases to amaze me how similar stories are here are TAM.

Like you, Andy, I had a similar situation - minus the plumber and add in a mutual friend who's in a band and lives 5 states away, so I know there was no PA.

Regardless of PA or not, your feelings of shakiness and sickness, etc are due to the fact that even if there is not PA, the magnitude of that volume of texts with someone besides you makes you uncomfortable.

In my situation, which again was similar and limited to FB and texting, I tried to play the game the same way you are now after discovering something was up - I allowed 'limited contact' for several months, but constantly checked phone records. Each and every time I saw his number pop up on the records, it turned my gut. Checking my wife's phone, I'd find a lot of meaningless banter between the two, but there were still things being deleted.

Things went on like this for 8 months - 8 MONTHS! Only to lead to a text that for me was the final straw - 'U look so good '

It comes down to this... what are you comfortable with in your marriage and bond with your wife, where are your boundaries? If this makes you uncomfortable and is outside of your defined boundaries, then it has to stop. Regardless of how innocent, etc it all is, it needs to stop. Out of respect for you as a person and out of respect for your marriage, it has to stop. NC is the ONLY way you'll feel better.

Btw, the things you're doing and saying sound very similar to the things I did and said for months. Only now, after NC, do I finally feel a sense of resolve. 

One more btw... you NEED to checkout marriedmansexlife.com, and read the book. I've been reading it for the past few days and it makes so many things clearer.


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## Machiavelli

weightlifter said:


> Damn. Was thinking we FINALLY had a more smoke than fire case.


Where there is smoke, there is fire.

Plumbers lay pipe.


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## Disenchanted

Everything alright Andy?


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## sandc

Were you able to retrieve the text messages?


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## anonymous1978

Please, please, do not trust her, yet. everything that you explain sounds concerning. please realize that she will only admit to what she knows you already know. you confronted her with texts that contained flirting, so she admitted to flirting and told you that is as far as it went...

Also, The change in texting from 888 one month down to 112 would make me suspicious that she bought another phone or is texting from her iPod or otherwise hiding texts (texting within game apps, etc). Especially since she started leaving the phone out for you to view.

When you go to try to view her deleted texts, Make sure you "back up" her phone to iTunes. Do not just "sync" it. Only by doing a back up will you download the deleted text files. This website helped me a lot when I was doing everything that you are doing...iPhone SMS backup export - Convert your iPhone's iMessages, text messages and contacts to PDF, CSV, XML and Android

I wish you the best and am so sorry.


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## OldWolf57

Andy, I still don't get why you just can't have her stop working for the guy.
What is so broken in you that you can't just say " I want you to quit and stop all contact "
Man you have to have more respect for yourself. If she calls you crazy, or controlling. Just say, true, but I won't OK my wife around a guy that wants to bone her.
Then ask her why she fighting so hard for just 4 hrs. a week.Throw it back on her.


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## Andy01

I backed her phone this morning but won't have a chance to try the software that extracts texts until this evening. I still have my fingers crossed that there's no evidence of anything more than flirting. I'm very nervous about all this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Andy01 said:


> I backed her phone this morning but won't have a chance to try the software that extracts texts until this evening. I still have my fingers crossed that there's no evidence of anything more than flirting. I'm very nervous about all this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you should be nervous.


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## tom67

bfree said:


> I think you should be nervous.


Andy I hope we are all wrong but thousands of texts for working 1 day a week prepare for the worst and be strong and kick her out if need be that's the only way you can shock her out of this if it isn;t too late already sorry.


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## Chaparral

If you think you can reconcile after reading the texts, consider where she might end up if you kick her out. Tough love is the answer in any event.


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## weightlifter

Still hoping for the happy ending but now... Sorry bro... Good luck.


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## barbados

Andy, my 15 year old daughter doesn't even text that much to ALL of her friends altogether, and she seems to be texting constantly.


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## Chaparral

barbados said:


> Andy, my 15 year old daughter doesn't even text that much to ALL of her friends altogether, and she seems to be texting constantly.


Its a given she is in an affair. The question is what kind and if this marriage can be saved.

The plumber is free so I wonder why she would pretend to not be doing anything. Of course the plumber may just be using her and she thinks its love. 

I feel so sorry for Andy. I hate to click on this thread and see another tragedy.


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## anonymous1978

I hope you are okay, Andy. Please stay on guard and try not to make any assumptions. This just doesn't sound good so far...

If she is really leaving her phone out and about, you may want to search around for another phone or another way of texting that she might be hidden. People context within other apps on a phone (you can see what apps have been recently used by double clicking the home button on the iPhone)... Or if she has an iPod? Many people use their iPod to text...or have a track phone.

I hope you are okay...


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## bfree

anonymous1978 said:


> I hope you are okay, Andy. Please stay on guard and try not to make any assumptions. This just doesn't sound good so far...
> 
> If she is really leaving her phone out and about, you may want to search around for another phone or another way of texting that she might be hidden. People context within other apps on a phone (you can see what apps have been recently used by double clicking the home button on the iPhone)... Or if she has an iPod? Many people use their iPod to text...or have a track phone.
> 
> I hope you are okay...


While I agree that he should search for another means of communication the fact that she still works for the OM and is in his house every week somewhat mitigates this. The fact that Andy is allowing her to continue to work there makes him appear very weak in his wife's eyes.


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## walkonmars

bfree said:


> While I agree that he should search for another means of communication the fact that she still works for the OM and is in his house every week somewhat mitigates this. The fact that Andy is allowing her to continue to work there makes him appear very weak in his wife's eyes.


:iagree::iagree:

A gentle trusting nature = weakness in the eyes of a cheat


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## anonymous1978

But if he doesn't yet believe that she is having an affair, then he doesn't feel like he needs to stop her from working with him. He needs to find more proof because he is in denial. Unless someone has been through this situation before, it is difficult to comprehend how someone can rationalize it anything away...I did it for a long time...


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## alte Dame

walkonmars said:


> A gentle trusting nature = weakness in the eyes of a cheat


I hate that this is true.


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## Chaparral

Andy isn't in denial now. He has found the sheer quantity and all day nature of the texts. He was just hoping against hope his wife would not do him this way.

Hopefully its no worse than an EA but the odds are slim and none.


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## weightlifter

chapparal said:


> Andy isn't in denial now. He has found the sheer quantity and all day nature of the texts. He was just hoping against hope his wife would not do him this way.
> 
> Hopefully its no worse than an EA but the odds are slim and none.


C'mon We are all pulling for him! Hoping against hope. Funny how Internet strangers can do that for someone we will never see face to face.


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## Chaparral

weightlifter said:


> C'mon We are all pulling for him! Hoping against hope. Funny how Internet strangers can do that for someone we will never see face to face.


Its the ultimate betrayal. And how it has become almost acceptable is beyond me. Wisconsin's law is a point of light. I hope other states follow suit. I am going to send a copy of it to my state representative and ask for him to introduce it.


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## SaltInWound

walkonmars said:


> A gentle trusting nature = weakness in the eyes of a cheat


Anything more is too much work.


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## Disenchanted

Andy01 said:


> I backed her phone this morning but won't have a chance to try the software that extracts texts until this evening. I still have my fingers crossed that there's no evidence of anything more than flirting. I'm very nervous about all this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


An update would be great........


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## Chaparral

Disenchanted said:


> An update would be great........


 I doubt its going to be good though. I'm guessing Andy is going through the worse time of his life.

Keep praying


----------



## old timer

chapparal said:


> *I doubt its going to be good though.* I'm guessing Andy is going through the worse time of his life.
> 
> Keep praying


Thinking you may be right, chap


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## naga75

Well, what happened Andy?
Was your gut wrong? Rough go of it dude talk to these folks before you confront her. 
I think we all know what Andy found when he looked at thise texts. 
Sorry man. Been there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

naga75 said:


> Well, what happened Andy?
> Was your gut wrong? Rough go of it dude talk to these folks before you confront her.
> I think we all know what Andy found when he looked at thise texts.
> Sorry man. Been there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Andy take you time bro. We'll be here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RWB

What Andy found?... the TRUTH. I don't think he is coming back here. No doubt he in a world of hurt now. I've been there, y'all have been there, it's hard (really) for someone to understand until they have actually stared down the evil their soul-mate can become.


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## old timer

RWB said:


> What Andy found?... the TRUTH. I don't think he is coming back here.


He may not want to come back right now, but IMO,
he will be back. 

Just in a different frame of mind.


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## carmen ohio

OK, sports fans, let's do a recap.

From Andy:



Andy01 said:


> Yes, she is still working for the plumber. When we talked about the flirting and she apologized she brought up the issue of working for him. She said that he was never there while she was, the flirting would stop and then offered to stop working there if it would make me feel better. Today is her first day back after Christmas.
> 
> I told her that I needed to trust her and said she could carry on working there . . ._
> Posted via Mobile Device_


and



Andy01 said:


> . . . She worked for him on Tuesday, he sent her a text later thanking her for all her hard work. I'm beginning to shake. Think I need a walk and some time out the house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So Andy's WW offered to quit working for the plumber but Andy foolishly said it was not necessary. Now he has to live with the fact that they see and text each other on a regular basis. Andy will constantly wonder what they are doing when he is not around, whether seemingly innocent messages ("thanks for the hard work") contain sexual innuendos and whether they are laughing behind his back.

In the immortal words of John Heywood, "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Let this be a lesson to all others who come to TAM for help. If you catch your spouse getting too involved with another person, insist on NC. Anything less is not only asking for trouble but begging for heartache.

Poor Andy.


----------



## 3putt

carmen ohio said:


> OK, sports fans, let's do a recap.
> 
> From Andy:
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> So Andy's WW offered to quit working for the plumber but Andy foolishly said it was not necessary. Now he has to live with the fact that they see and text each other on a regular basis. Andy will constantly wonder what they are doing when he is not around, whether seemingly innocent messages ("thanks for the hard work") contain sexual innuendos and whether they are laughing behind his back.
> 
> In the immortal words of John Heywood, "There are none so blind as those who will not see."
> 
> Let this be a lesson to all others who come to TAM for help. If you catch your spouse getting too involved with another person, insist on NC. Anything less is not only asking for trouble but begging for heartache.
> 
> Poor Andy.


You should go and post something similar on Randall Stevens' thread. He's headed down the same damned path and won't listen to those of us that have already warned him.


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## Wiserforit

There isn't any question Andy's wife is boffing the plumber and pouring out her emotional energy on him.

A thousand have gone before him, not wanting to believe. I see the fundamental distinction between those of us who knew, but wanted to confront with proof, vs. those living in denial and were then confronted themselves with truth.

For those who knew but needed proof - it's a relief to have the evidence you can put in their face and say "enough of the bullsh**, now let's do some honest talk". 

For those who denied, this is the worst time of their life and it's like being gut-shot with a cannon ball. Hard to get up off the ground after one of those.


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## loveisforever

it would be a mind changing event for Andy to simply face the reality. please work on your codenpency personality,for your own sake. Such indecision and self cheating is simply tragic for yourself! I guess you might be emothionally misused in your early childhood.


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## the guy

Ya it sucks to be emotionly missed used as a kid.

Whats even worse is being emotionaly misused as a spouse,

So Andy come back and there are alot of folks here that are in and have been in your shoes. You will get thru this crap.


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## Andy01

Ok so I have a bit to say but here goes:

The text retrieval was a complete fail. I think I got about six texts that I hadn't already seen, enough to confirm flirting but no more than that.
Have continued to monitor her phone usage through access to her online billing account and she is not calling or texting him.
I have been through the whole house and car and her bag but found no other phones or SIM cards.
Have checked her phone for evidence of using other electronic contact methods and found nothing.

Only text of real concern I found was one where she had told him that I had tracked her to the car park (a while ago now) and he had asked what she said. No more of the conversation was available.

Anyway, I couldn't wait anymore so I confronted on Sunday evening, I told her I knew that there was more going on than just a bit of harmless banter and asked her how long she had been texting him and how often. She said that it had been since he last did some work for us so just before she started working for him. She said that she had been texting quite a lot. She downplayed a bit and seemed surprised when I told her how many she had been sending. I vented a bit at this point and said how unfair she had been letting me accept the blame for us drifting apart when clearly she had been too busy to pay me any attention. I reminded her about the excuses she had given for not texting me e.g her working etc. and said that this was rubbish because she had time to text him.

I asked her again about the time she had stopped in the car park in the way to do Christmas shopping and told her that she had lied about phoning him because there were no records of her making any calls at that time. I suggested that the lie about calling him was a half truth and that she had actually talked to him in person, she admitted that this was the case.

I asked her again about whether he was ever present when she was at his house and she admitted that he had popped in a few times.

She cried quite a lot and apologized a lot, said she loves me, doesn't want to lose me, she doesn't know what came over her or why she spent so much time texting but that it had become addictive because he would always text back and while we weren't getting on this gave her some confidence and made her feel wanted.

She insists that it never went further than texting/talking. She is deeply apologetic and seems sincere. 
I told her I couldn't handle her working for her any more and that I needed her to stop any contact with him. She agreed immediately and has quit. She left him a voicemail saying that her marriage was more important than the job.

I have told her that I want to believe her, I want to work at our marriage but that it will take time for me to trust her again. I have told her that because I was hurt so badly by her betrayal that I will probably continue to monitor what she is doing for my own peace of mind and she is fine with this.

I do want the relationship to work, I still hope that I now have the truth and that I don't find out that she has told me any more lies. Her explanation does sound like the fog described in other posts.

I have told her that in my opinion, a man would only spend that much time texting if he was getting or thought he might get something. She seemed shocked by this so I said she was either being very naive or had enjoyed the attention which she admitted to.

So now I have a wife that is very keen to make amends, I hope it is real.
In a perverse way, it's quite nice to have taken charge and feel like I'm in control. Maybe she likes it too?

I'm still gutted over it all and just hope that I can come to terms with it and move on quickly.

Thank you all for your support and advice. I expect I'll be back, hopefully to confirm that everything is still ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## snap

Andy01 said:


> Only text of real concern I found was one where she had told him that I had tracked her to the car park (a while ago now) and he had asked what she said. No more of the conversation was available.


You realize this is the evidence of them conspiring against you? There is sure as hell more than just flirting.


----------



## tom67

Ahh she is quitting the job yesterday correct? Yes she is Andy.


----------



## tom67

Sorry she quit good job


----------



## TRy

Andy01 said:


> I asked her again about the time she had stopped in the car park in the way to do Christmas shopping and told her that she had lied about phoning him because there were no records of her making any calls at that time. I suggested that the lie about calling him was a half truth and that she had actually talked to him in person, she admitted that this was the case.


 Why did she feel the need to meet with him in car park? Why did she feel the need to text him and tell him that you had tracked her down there? The obvious answer is that they did more than talk there.



Andy01 said:


> I asked her again about whether he was ever present when she was at his house and she admitted that he had popped in a few times._Posted via Mobile Device_


 In light of their feelings for each other and her point blank lying about it, this is very troubling.

This was at the very least an emotional affair (EA) where they had many secret meetings from you where they could have taken it physical. Also troubling is that she confided with the affair partner (AP) details about you while keeping you in the dark about details of him. She and the AP were the couple that conspiring against you the outsider. Another concern is that she has not admitted to anything that you did not already know, which means that there is much more that she is not telling you.


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## OldWolf57

Andy Andy Andy, meeting him in the car park after your talk showed you how deep they are. Then she had the gall to tell him you tracked her there.

Does that REALLY sound like someone that's been only flirting.

Well like you said, you are not good at confrontations. So if I was you, I wouldn't bring it up again. Cause she is going to get over her close call, and is going to be smarter now, she is going to accuse you of not letting it go.

Hell, you commute and is gone 12 hours, she don't have to work for him. She has all day and WILL have a trac phone pretty soon too.
But you seem Ok just to have her stay, so good luck with that.

But do this. tell her you still feel there is more, so you want her to take a polygraph.

None so blind Andy. Go back and read your FIRST POST on how she acted around Oct. She had time, access, and opportunity. Now top that off with her indifference with you.

Did she even go over night to that elderly relative ?? Can you verify if she did ?? 
This not knowing, and burying your head is not going to work man. POLYGRAPH.


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## Humble Pie

She has only admitted what you can confirm, and only admitted due to solid proof. That is a big RED FLAG. This is more than EA, they met in the parking lot (why else would she tell him). She was at his house with him, and she tickle truthed you to say he "popped in a few times".

But like others have mentioned Andy, try to move on, you might not ever have the tangible proof of sexual evidence, and your mind doesnt want you to deduce the facts from the evidence you have.


----------



## bfree

Andy,

I know this is hard for you. It was hard for all of us. I think you did ok considering you are swimming in unfamiliar waters. Now I'm going to tell you the next step. I'm sure she has already turned over all her passwords access to all her electronic devices. If not, do that now. Next, you have her write down exactly what happened when she met him in the car park and all the times she and he were alone in his house or anywhere else. You tell her that her story will be verified by a lie detector test which you will set up in the very near future. You tell her that you need this from her in order to rebuild trust. You tell her that you have to know what you are forgiving her for if you are to forgive her and have it be genuine. Tell her the polygraph is because she has lied and hidden things from you and this is how she will show she can be trusted to tell the truth. Do not skip this step. You have to continue to maintain your frame and keep control of the narrative. She has to know just how serious you are and this is. There are more things you can do (and probably will end up doing) but I think that is your next step.


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## PreRaphaelite

She's giving you the trickle-truth. There is much more to come, if you are ever able to get it out of her.


----------



## Wiserforit

Oh well. I thought he was coming around, but bad acting is being accepted.

Golly officer, I'm so surprised I was texting him that much. Really? 

People texting this much, lying, and following the cheating 101 script so exactly... might be cheating? Shocking!

Too bad the text snooping was such a fail. Only admitting to that which is already proven. 

Another vote for the polygraph here. But I doubt he'll do it.


----------



## Andy01

I was hoping for something a bit more constructive than the same old 'he's boning her'. It's not very helpful and shows very little imagination.
Yes, there is evidence that she was emotionally involved, no there isn't evidecne of sex, it's not for the lack of me trying to find it.

It's a shame that there's a minority on here that seem to find other people's misery so much fun. I am sorry that you have been hurt so badly that you have turned out that way. Assuming that is the case then maybe you could be a bit more understanding rather than jsut waiting to stick the boot in at every opportunity.

No doubt, if I had come back and said I had proof of sex these same people would say 'we told you that all the time' and 'don't think it stopped at sex, there was probably plans to run off and marry...'

For info, the car-park meeting was 12th December, before I confronted. She has given me an explanation that I have to live with, I have no way of verifying it. what she says ties in with her text history that day. 
I confronted her about this at the time, e.g. the evening she met him (although didn't know that then). She said that she was panicked by my question, knew how it would sound and didn't want to take the risk so she lied. At this point she wouldn't have known that I was going to carry on digging and find the phone records etc. I believe what she says is plausible, I can imagine why she would lie. I'm not comfortable with it but I have no other way of verifying what she said.

I agree that she has trickle truthed me, I agree there may be stuff she hasn't told me but I hope that's not the case.

She has been consistent in her explanations, where she has given them and is clearly repentent. I accept that I may never know what she is being repentent about.

So, I say again, the texting has stopped, she has quit the job, I would know if she hadn't becasue she would have to arrange child-care for our youngest son and it's very easy for me to track car mileage without her knowing I'm doing it.

She has limited time without our kids now that she isn't going to his house:
Monday - she works at a nursery from 9.00am to 1.15pm (our son attends untill 4pm, he is four) she picks up our other son at 3pm so she has about 1.5 hours spare
Tuesday - now not working for him she has our youngest all day (he doesn't go to Nursery this day)
Wednesday - Nursery from 9.00am till 1.15pm, our son finishes at the same time so she has him and then collects other son later so no time.
Thursday - as Monday so about an hour and a half.
Friday - No nursery so has youngest all day.
Weekend - she will be with me.

So, from now on, there are two potential times available which I'm sure you will tell me is more than enough and you would be right. However, any travel would make a meeting difficult so he would have to come to ours. I have a VAR which I intend to use and will be working from home on random monday's and thursday's without telling her in advance from now on.

As I said before, I checked her phone to make sure she isn't using other communication methods, I checked the car, house and all her personal belongings for evidence of other communication devices and found none.

I believ ed what she told me, having read alot on here about 'fog' I agree that she was addicted to the thrill.

I may never know if anything physical happened or not.
I don't think it did.
You may ridicule me for that but for me, the lies and the the time she spent putting him before me with the texting is bad enough. 

I am devestated to think that my wife would rather spend all day every day texting another guy than talk to me about how our relationship needed some work.

I am devestated that she lied to me and let me blame myself without accepting her share of the blame for how far apart we became.

I am devestated that to know that the woman I love above all else, the woman that I trusted implicitly, the woman whose honesty and integrity I believed was perfect, is in fact, just a normal person, capable of being dishonest to protect herself.

I am gutted to find out that the woman I want to be with till I die, can look me in the eye and tell me a lie. 

This is all very raw for me, but I do feel like I have learned some difficult lessons and will be a different person because of that.

I am now very much in control, I am no longer afraid to ask her to account for herself. I have told her not to work for this scum and she has agreed. No arguents, no if's, but's or maybe's, she just agreed.

So, I do know that it's possible that i might find out more in time however, what I want now is to know what to do going forwards on the basis that I want the relationship to work.

1) Should I confront him? I don't know what I would say but I would like to let him know how angry I am and to ask him some questions about what on earth he thought he was doing.

2) Should I arrange marriage councelling or wait and see if we can get by on our own.

3) How do I rebuild my trust in her, I don't want to be in a relationship where I can't trust her to go to the shops on her own and where she is walking on egg shells permanently.

4) How long does it take to stop obsessing over every little detail and laying awake at night wondering about what went on but never being able to know for sure. You see, if she is now being honest and it was not physical then how can I ever get to the point where I can believe that?

I don't know what else to say at the moment.

I wish I had taken everyone's advice and asked her to quit the job ages ago. Actually, I wish I had said no to the job in the first place. 

I wish I hadn't let our relationship get to the point where she had the time and inclination to spend so much energy texting another man.

I can't undo these things but I can make changes going forward, I will be stronger, I will think about what I want and not be afraid to say it and do it. 

Seeing her so upset and clearly scared at the thought of me leaving her has been painful to watch but it has also given me an enormous confidence boost and improved my self esteem.

I'm keen to look for the silver lining, i think in his case it's that I now have my eyes wide open and looking ahead.


----------



## Humble Pie

Take your time Andy, nobody hopes for your misery. We are all in your corner here at TAM. 

You are dealing with a lot and we just need to support you, not bash you. If my post was insulting, I appologize.


----------



## MrK

Andy01 said:


> Our wedding anniversary was 29th October, she gave me a nice card with a nice message, she text him 41 times from 9.57am to 11.28pm.


Good luck, man. Way to go, taking the advice you needed from these fine folks and ignoring what you don't want. They don't know you. Don't know your wife. 

And speaking of armchair advice.... You will be gaslighted (have been already, but you know that). Print out the above. Just that one sentence. Carry it with you. Read it when you waver.

That's one of the most powerful definitions of an emotional affair I've ever seen in a single sentence.


----------



## Chaparral

People are having a hard time believeing you get it, that's why the seem harsh. 

Why were you unable to see more actual texts? There are programs that retrieve those deleted texts from iphones?

The good news, if I remember correctly, is that the texting had already been going down in number.

She seems sorry and contrite. That's good but we have seen that before and it may be false.

Did you ask her if she knew that all this looked like she was having sex with him?

Threat of a polygraph may get you more answers.

Find a really good counselor that you have interviewed first. Some are worse than useless and may blame you for driving her away.

There is little point in talking to the plumber although you could threaten to put him on cheaterville.com if you don, t think he is telling you the truth.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

chapparal said:


> People are having a hard time believeing you get it, that's why the seem harsh.
> 
> *Why were you unable to see more actual texts? There are programs that retrieve those deleted texts from iphones?*
> 
> The good news, if I remember correctly, is that the texting had already been going down in number.
> 
> She seems sorry and contrite. That's good but we have seen that before and it may be false.
> 
> Did you ask her if she knew that all this looked like she was having sex with him?
> 
> *Threat of a polygraph may get you more answers.
> *
> Find a really good counselor that you have interviewed first. Some are worse than useless and may blame you for driving her away.
> 
> There is little point in talking to the plumber although you could threaten to put him on cheaterville.com if you don, t think he is telling you the truth.




He is in denial, the coping mechanism many of us first used.

He is not going to see what is right or wrong he only sees her through the rose coloured glasses. One day he may not be able to deny it any more and shake to the new reality.

Good luck Andy, you need this. we are not your enemies and we dont want to see you in misery. so this replays may feels like bashing from bitter people but listen, it may help you.


----------



## sinnister

Andy, at this point I believe you've resolved to believe that your wifes tears indicate that she's remorseful and truthful.

You're in a world of pain now. Seems counter-intuitive but you have to prepare for more instead of consiously avoiding it. The people on this thread are not what you think they are. They have helped me and countless others see the truth of their marriage. It often isn't done in the most tactful way, but tact isn't a luxury we can afford. We need the straight goods in all of their ugly details. Why? Because you need to know what your wife is capable of BEFORE you can choose to move forward.

I can tell by your posts you are a VERY intelligent person. Your writting is calm and composed despite the personal hell you are going through. This character trait will be crucial in the weeks ahead.

Again, I don't think there's any "accident watching" going on here. I think everybody is trying to help you in the only way they can, and they feel geniune fear (and in some cases empathetic pain) for you, because the whole truth is staring you right in the face.

I truly wish you well hope you can rebound from this quickly.


----------



## Shaggy

I think you done good in that you've managed to disrupt the status quo and you've gotten your wife to see there are serious consequences for the boundaries she crossed.

That's good stuff.

Now you have to realize that you've changed the game and so you now have to yourself change how you are tacking the situation.

Your wife is made changes -like quitting the job. The question is what is going to happen in the coming weeks and months.

the new game isn't about breaking up the EA - it's about keeping it dead, it's about stopping the next guy, and it's about making sure the EA partner stays away from her.

My advice:

1. The two of you need to make a conscious effort to put more focus on the two of you, and stick with it. The OM gave he nice positive feel good attention - you need to fill that void. Don't become a nice guy doormat, or love sick puppy, Do become her loving husband who meets her emotional needs and the needs of her ego for attention and praise.

2. You need to have a rule with her. If the OM ever contacts her, ever meaning today or next year - she doesn't pickup the phone, she doesn't text back - she tell you, and she shows you what he sent.

3. Be on the watch for the OM fishing for renewed contact. It may be next week,next month, or next year. Do not get complacent.

4. Be on the watch for a new OM giving her too much attention.

Your wife has lost a nice feed to attention and happy chemicals in her brain. She's going to be missing it, and will unconsciously be seeking a way to get that feeling back. If you know this, and plan for it, you can be the one that provides it.

If you have not read Married Man's Sex Life by Athol. Get it. Read it. Use it to defend your marriage.


----------



## Chaparral

The only way to rebuild trust is to verify she is being faithful and of course time. She has to give you, freely all the passwords to all of her accts. YOU have to make sure there are no hidden accts. VAR for computer.

There are ways to use apps on iphones that hide messages, I can't help you with that. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...one-interested-evidence-gathering-thread.html

Have you counted to see who was texting the most, him or her.

You pretty much have to assume this was a physical affair . They had something going on before she started going to his house texting wise. Its just all too convenient. Then the amount of texting, she admits he was coming home while she was at his house. You can't tell where they went from the car park or what they did. You only know her car was there, he could have picked her up and driven somewhere else. Worse this shows how badly they needed to be together. And of course she tells him you are tracking her.

Going forward, you have to deal with this as a physical affair unless she can prove it wasn't.

I would have another go at the texts. What exactly was the reason you were not able to recover more? Other posters say if you get the deleted iphone texts it looks garbled but there is a way to correct that.


----------



## naga75

> 1) Should I confront him? I don't know what I would say but I would like to let him know how angry I am and to ask him some questions about what on earth he thought he was doing.


*if you can talk to him rationally and calmly, and you need to do this for yourself, i dont see why not. if you think you may go in swinging and cracking his head, thats probably not a good idea. trust me on this.*



> 2) Should I arrange marriage councelling or wait and see if we can get by on our own.


*really only you can answer this*



> 3) How do I rebuild my trust in her, I don't want to be in a relationship where I can't trust her to go to the shops on her own and where she is walking on egg shells permanently.


* you DONT. SHE rebuilds your trust in her. you will know this in your gut when she is trying and sincere if you are close to her and really know your wife*



> 4) How long does it take to stop obsessing over every little detail and laying awake at night wondering about what went on but never being able to know for sure. You see, if she is now being honest and it was not physical then how can I ever get to the point where I can believe that?


*i cant tell you. im 6 months out, and still i lie awake with my wife next to me wondering what all i dont know. sometimes it makes me sad, sometimes i dont care, and sometimes im fuming mad. depends on the level of transparency and your personality, and i suppose every case is different. dont be suprised if it takes a long time*

by the way, if you REALLY want to see her deleted texts, i can show you how to get them from her iphone backup. all of them. at least the ones that were not overwritten, and probably there are not many that have been overwritten. its tedious, but very possible.


----------



## turnera

Andy01 said:


> In a perverse way, it's quite nice to have taken charge and feel like I'm in control. Maybe she likes it too?


Of course it is. And of course she does. It's called being an alpha male. HE was being an alpha male by pursuing her, while you sat by the sidelines and 'proved' to her that you didn't desire her. Desire is usually a REALLY strong need in women. Now you've proven to her that you do, and you _are_ alpha, so she's content again.


----------



## Chaparral

The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: 9781460981733: Amazon.com: Books


His Needs Her Needs, Not Just Friends, and After the Affair

After the Affair: Healing the Pain and Rebuilding Trust When a Partner Has Been Unfaithful: Janis A. Spring: Amazon.com: Books


----------



## turnera

What you do now is continue to monitor - and be strong about it (just hold out your hand and say "I need to check your phone" from time to time), and start taking a REALLY good look at your marriage - affair proof it. Start educating yourself on what it takes to have a strong marriage and BOTH of you start making changes toward that. 

Have you read His Needs Her Needs yet?


----------



## BURNT KEP

I wonder why anyone would want to stay married to someone they don't trust. If you feel you need to track your spouse or check there phone records it does not seem to be much of a marriage.


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## dogman

Listen Andy, 

Sometimes it's hard to see the facts objectively. But here they are, regardless of what you think you know...

High motivation + opportunity + dishonesty = high probability it went physical 

I don't care who we are talking about. This is true for everyone's wife or husband

This is not for our enjoyment it's a simple warning to not necessarily accept what you are fed.


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## Chaparral

BURNT KEP said:


> I wonder why anyone would want to stay married to someone they don't trust. If you feel you need to track your spouse or check there phone records it does not seem to be much of a marriage.


Actually, marraiges do recover from much worse, especially where kids are involved. thats what this section is about as you will see at the top of the page.

*Coping with Infidelity Relationship recovery from the destructiveness of infidelity.*


----------



## donkey_punch

My brother was married for two years, she cheated on him once and he forgave her. She then cheated on him with the same man. He smelled something was wrong and purchased some detective stuff to confirm what he was thinking. He immediately got divorced.

A lot of people in this forum will tell you about the famous SIGNS of cheating. Those people got cheated and know very well about those signs, but let me tell something... 
You gotta live your life and any relationship you have knowing that there is a possibility of cheating no matter who you are with. Why? All the reasons you can imagine, from a beer night to thinking the other person does not loves you. And many more.

I'm married for 3 years. We had our fights, ups and downs like any couple but, both of us made crystal clear that cheating is not an option and, if there is the possibility of someone else, would prefer to divorce. Suffering will come, but time heals almost everything. 

Remember you happiness depends only on yourself.


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## bfree

Andy,

I was going to type out a very long reply to you but then I thought "why bother." You are obviously too devastated to ensure it won't happen again and in fact you are choosing to rug sweep this almost ensuring it will happen again. You have decided to believe her regardless of the fact that she has repeatedly lied to you in the recent past. You are a man that prefers closing your eyes to the dangers of the world so that you can be surprised when life kicks you in the [email protected]

Just one question. If you don't know what she has actually done and why she did it, how are you going to ensure it won't happen again? If you can live with that question unanswered I guess all I can say is have a good life (right up until the day your are served.)


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## shikha87

Andy, this is the phase of life.. I would agree with Jason...
Keep your chin up , think about your children..


----------



## JMGrey

Andy01 said:


> I was hoping for something a bit more constructive than the same old 'he's boning her'. It's not very helpful and shows very little imagination.
> Yes, there is evidence that she was emotionally involved, no there isn't evidecne of sex, it's not for the lack of me trying to find it.
> 
> It's a shame that there's a minority on here that seem to find other people's misery so much fun. I am sorry that you have been hurt so badly that you have turned out that way. Assuming that is the case then maybe you could be a bit more understanding rather than jsut waiting to stick the boot in at every opportunity.
> 
> No doubt, if I had come back and said I had proof of sex these same people would say 'we told you that all the time' and 'don't think it stopped at sex, there was probably plans to run off and marry...'
> 
> For info, the car-park meeting was 12th December, before I confronted. She has given me an explanation that I have to live with, I have no way of verifying it. what she says ties in with her text history that day.
> I confronted her about this at the time, e.g. the evening she met him (although didn't know that then). She said that she was panicked by my question, knew how it would sound and didn't want to take the risk so she lied. At this point she wouldn't have known that I was going to carry on digging and find the phone records etc. I believe what she says is plausible, I can imagine why she would lie. I'm not comfortable with it but I have no other way of verifying what she said.
> 
> I agree that she has trickle truthed me, I agree there may be stuff she hasn't told me but I hope that's not the case.
> 
> She has been consistent in her explanations, where she has given them and is clearly repentent. I accept that I may never know what she is being repentent about.
> 
> So, I say again, the texting has stopped, she has quit the job, I would know if she hadn't becasue she would have to arrange child-care for our youngest son and it's very easy for me to track car mileage without her knowing I'm doing it.
> 
> She has limited time without our kids now that she isn't going to his house:
> Monday - she works at a nursery from 9.00am to 1.15pm (our son attends untill 4pm, he is four) she picks up our other son at 3pm so she has about 1.5 hours spare
> Tuesday - now not working for him she has our youngest all day (he doesn't go to Nursery this day)
> Wednesday - Nursery from 9.00am till 1.15pm, our son finishes at the same time so she has him and then collects other son later so no time.
> Thursday - as Monday so about an hour and a half.
> Friday - No nursery so has youngest all day.
> Weekend - she will be with me.
> 
> So, from now on, there are two potential times available which I'm sure you will tell me is more than enough and you would be right. However, any travel would make a meeting difficult so he would have to come to ours. I have a VAR which I intend to use and will be working from home on random monday's and thursday's without telling her in advance from now on.
> 
> As I said before, I checked her phone to make sure she isn't using other communication methods, I checked the car, house and all her personal belongings for evidence of other communication devices and found none.
> 
> I believ ed what she told me, having read alot on here about 'fog' I agree that she was addicted to the thrill.
> 
> I may never know if anything physical happened or not.
> I don't think it did.
> You may ridicule me for that but for me, the lies and the the time she spent putting him before me with the texting is bad enough.
> 
> I am devestated to think that my wife would rather spend all day every day texting another guy than talk to me about how our relationship needed some work.
> 
> I am devestated that she lied to me and let me blame myself without accepting her share of the blame for how far apart we became.
> 
> I am devestated that to know that the woman I love above all else, the woman that I trusted implicitly, the woman whose honesty and integrity I believed was perfect, is in fact, just a normal person, capable of being dishonest to protect herself.
> 
> I am gutted to find out that the woman I want to be with till I die, can look me in the eye and tell me a lie.
> 
> This is all very raw for me, but I do feel like I have learned some difficult lessons and will be a different person because of that.
> 
> I am now very much in control, I am no longer afraid to ask her to account for herself. I have told her not to work for this scum and she has agreed. No arguents, no if's, but's or maybe's, she just agreed.
> 
> So, I do know that it's possible that i might find out more in time however, what I want now is to know what to do going forwards on the basis that I want the relationship to work.
> 
> 1) Should I confront him? I don't know what I would say but I would like to let him know how angry I am and to ask him some questions about what on earth he thought he was doing.
> 
> 2) Should I arrange marriage councelling or wait and see if we can get by on our own.
> 
> 3) How do I rebuild my trust in her, I don't want to be in a relationship where I can't trust her to go to the shops on her own and where she is walking on egg shells permanently.
> 
> 4) How long does it take to stop obsessing over every little detail and laying awake at night wondering about what went on but never being able to know for sure. You see, if she is now being honest and it was not physical then how can I ever get to the point where I can believe that?
> 
> I don't know what else to say at the moment.
> 
> I wish I had taken everyone's advice and asked her to quit the job ages ago. Actually, I wish I had said no to the job in the first place.
> 
> I wish I hadn't let our relationship get to the point where she had the time and inclination to spend so much energy texting another man.
> 
> I can't undo these things but I can make changes going forward, I will be stronger, I will think about what I want and not be afraid to say it and do it.
> 
> Seeing her so upset and clearly scared at the thought of me leaving her has been painful to watch but it has also given me an enormous confidence boost and improved my self esteem.
> 
> I'm keen to look for the silver lining, i think in his case it's that I now have my eyes wide open and looking ahead.


Wow, this post was all over the place. Andy, I'm certain that there's a subconscious desire to kill the messenger but we're not the enemy here, the OM and your wife are, as much as that may hurt you.

You've admitted to two germane things in this post:

1.) Your wife was lying to you, as we told you
2.) You want to see the silver lining, despite what else we're telling you.

I admit that we could absolutely be wrong about your wife being engaged in a PA. However, we are approaching evaluating your wife's behavior not from a standpoint of cynicism but from probability based on common experience in the CWI subforum. Your wife was involved in an EA. That much you know for certain which means she has the motive to engage in a PA, as it is merely the physical manifestation of an EA. She has admitted that she has lied to you about isolated physical contact, we know that for certain. Further, they have consistently had isolated access to one another in the workplace, without your oversight, which means she had means and opportunity to engage in a PA. So you would have us believe that a woman whose emotional attachment to her AP was so strong that she was texting him with obsessive frequency, to the point that you were feeling emotionally abandoned and physically ignored, and who had the means, motive and opportunity to consummate that EA physically on a regular basis, did nothing? As I said, it's possible, but that means your wife is the exception to a near-universal rule, not just in affair behavior but in the general behavior of a human being as a pleasure-seeking animal. I'm sorry you're hurting, but those are rubbish odds by any sane estimation that I can think of.


----------



## sandc

Andy,
If you can go on with not knowing what really happened, with giving her a pass on this one and hoping she got the message and won't do this again. Fine, I wish you well. However, if it were me I'd want to KNOW what happened. Since your wife has demonstrated that she is incapable of telling you the truth you can't really ask her without some means of verifying that she is giving you the truth. Therefore I recommend you arrange a polygraph test. Come up with a list of questions you want answered truthfully. This is a way for her to demonstrate to you that she is being completely truthful. If she balks at taking the poly, that should tell you something. People who have nothing to hide generally aren't fearful at having the truth exposed.

You should also know that there are a number of people who have received "parking lot" confessions when they arrive for the polygraph.


----------



## bfree

Andy,

Setting aside the question of sex, why did your wife develop an emotional connection with another man? You said that she liked the attention. Is that it? So does that mean every time you get sidetracked at work, every time you are dealing with a family issue, every time you do something that doesn't provide her with attention she is going to find another man to do it for her?

See that is the problem with rugsweeping and sticking your head in the sand. It doesn't fully explore what actually happened and why. There may be a structural problem with your marriage but it will not be fixed if you don't know about it. Only by discovering the whole truth and constructively dealing with it can you hope to repair the damage. I'm not saying that a PA happened although I would consider the possibility. I suggested that you have her write out the story of all the times she was alone with this guy. For some reason people find it easier to minimize and outright lie to someone's face but when forced to write it out they tend to be more truthful and complete. Probably because they know that it is a written record and is therefore immune to such things as "I didn't say that" or that's not what I meant" or the infamous "you're taking that out of context." Its written by then in their own words so there is no gray area. And if you tell her that it will all be confirmed by polygraph she should jump at the chance to clear her name and prove to you she is being truthful. She writes it all out, she takes the polygraph and passes. You guys move on. It's all good right? Frankly I can't understand why you wouldn't want to do this unless you really do suspect they had sex and just don't want to know.


----------



## the guy

BURNT KEP said:


> I wonder why anyone would want to stay married to someone they don't trust. If you feel you need to track your spouse or check there phone records it does not seem to be much of a marriage.


Cuz when a wayward spouse begs and crys for forgiveness and wants the marriage, and the betrayed spouse still has love but doesn't want to get screwed over again, the betryaed will continue to verify the waywards commitment.

In time the investigation will either confirm the regaining of trust or it won't.

Trust is earned, OP is at a new point in his marriage and his old lady has alot of heavy lifting to regain this trust but it can be gained.


----------



## the guy

Trust but verify, in a few years if your old lady plays her cards right she can regain yours.


----------



## Chaparral

Pounding on Andy that he doesn't get it is wrong. He has stated the same thing everyone here is saying. He just admits he doesn't have proof. He gets it. The question is what does he do now. I think form the times of his posts, he has a limited amount of time to post.

Assume he gets it and offer advice accordingly. He isn't rugsweeping. He is looking for help in getting the answers he needs.


----------



## Chaparral

Andy, did you use a program to decipher the info you got from the iphone?


----------



## Chaparral

Here is a quote from a you tube search

_yes. You can restore unbacked and deleted files. Even overwritten files can be restored, because with flash memory, OS doesn't see the full capacity of the drive. So even though you think files are overwritten, they are really not. Especially on iPhones. I have bought used iPhones from﻿ Ebay, and just for the hell of it was able to restore everything that previous owner did. Which is one reason I don't own iPhones anymore._


----------



## Chaparral

Here is one link:iPhone Backup Extractor for Windows and Mac


----------



## Disenchanted

Andy01 said:


> I told her I couldn't handle her working for her any more and that I needed her to stop any contact with him. She agreed immediately and has quit. She left him a voicemail saying that her marriage was more important than the job.


Excellent, you get a pat on the back from me.



Andy01 said:


> I have told her that because I was hurt so badly by her betrayal that I will probably continue to monitor what she is doing for my own peace of mind and she is fine with this.


*DO NOT* back down on this. You are turning things around and _she may even start to respect you again someday_ if you set boundaries and are *PERFECTLY* clear on what they are. 



Andy01 said:


> In a perverse way, it's quite nice to have taken charge and feel like I'm in control. Maybe she likes it too?


It is *NOT PERVERSE*. Yes she likes it, you need more of this. Stop being afraid of your wife.

You could even go so far as to point blank ask her if she would rather be a leader or have a leader in her life. She does not want to be the captain of this ship dude, I mean that 100% seriously. *BE A MAN*.


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## naga75

Exactly what Disenchanted said. Take the helm. 
Sh!t, i took such utter and complete control of my marriage and its direction, and more importantly, my LIFE...
My wife calls me "captain". Lol. Which i kind of like, actually.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carmen ohio

Dear Andy01,

I'm sorry you feel that people are picking on you but you came to TAM for advice, when you started this thread you asked "Is this just me," and now, thanks to the advice you've received and your own efforts to uncover the truth, you know that it was a whole lot more than just your suspicions.

That said, I and others on TAM still feel that you don't have the whole picture and that it is important for you to learn everything you can about your WW's infidelity and deception. Why? Because you can't have a successful reconciliation without knowing the full truth. As long as she continues to hide things from you, she is not truly committed to fixing her marriage. Moreover, if more bad facts come to light in the future, you will be further devastated and your reconciliation will likely fail.

Of course, it is for you to decide how much you want to know about what your WW has done. Just understand that, based on the collective wisdom of TAM posters, ignorance of all the facts usually means a bad ending for the marriage.

Now, let's take the question of whether your WW's affair with the plumber has become physical or not. She says it has not. You say there's no way of knowing and that you just have to accept her word. But let's consider what you've told us already (sticking only to the facts):



Andy01 said:


> *. . . Only text of real concern I found was one where she had told him that I had tracked her to the car park (a while ago now) and he had asked what she said. No more of the conversation was available. . .*
> 
> *I asked her again about the time she had stopped in the car park in the way to do Christmas shopping and told her that she had lied about phoning him because there were no records of her making any calls at that time. I suggested that the lie about calling him was a half truth and that she had actually talked to him in person, she admitted that this was the case**.*
> 
> *I asked her again about whether he was ever present when she was at his house and she admitted that he had popped in a few times**. . .*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


and



Andy01 said:


> *. . . **I confronted her about this at the time, e.g. the evening she met him (although didn't know that then). She said that she was panicked by my question, knew how it would sound and didn't want to take the risk so she lied. . .*


So here's what you know:

1) Your WW at the very least is in EA with the plumber.

2) She has repeatedly hid things from you and even lied to you in order to continue her affair.

3) Your WW on numerous occasions was alone with the plumber.

4) Your WW met the plumber in a car park for a half hour. First, she claimed she was only shopping. Then she said she only spoke to the plumber on the phone. Now she "admits" that he was in the car with her.

5) Your WW was concerned enough about your discovery of the car park incident that she communicated with the plumber about it and he wanted to know how much she told you.

6) When you last spoke with her about this incident, you did not ask her what she did. Instead, you offered her an excuse, "that she had actually talked to him in person," and she readily agreed that that is what she did. From what you have told us, you did not ask what really happened in the car park.

7) Whenever you push your WW really hard to admit something based on a reasonable suspicion, she eventually does.

8) You have not pushed your WW hard about what happened in the car park.

So, what do we make of all this? Simply that you have ample evidence to suspect your WW of having not just an EA but a PA with the plumber and that you have not seriously confronted her with your suspicions and pressed her to tell you the truth. Rather, you have looked for excuses so that you could continue to believe that this is only an EA. Unfortunately, when two adults fall in love and spend time together, they usually end up having sex.

Again, it's your decision whether you want to know the truth. I just don't think it's correct to say that you have no way of uncovering the truth. Rather, you seem not to want to.

Finally, I find it ironic that you now wish that you "had taken everyone's advice and asked her to quit the job ages ago" but you resist taking people's advice that you try to find out if your WW is telling the truth that her affair never became physical. What's that old saying about people who can't learn from the past being doomed to repeat it?

Let's hope the saying doesn't apply to you.


----------



## Wiserforit

Andy01 said:


> I was hoping for something a bit more constructive than the same old 'he's boning her'. It's not very helpful and shows very little imagination.


I'm immune to manipulation. This is a combination of guilt-tripping and shaming. 

Guilt-tripping is where you try to make people feel guilty for being frank with you. Shaming is where you try to make people feel ashamed for not being "constructive" and having "little imagination".

Everyone uses manipulative tactics when they are trying to protect themselves from harm. We call them "defense mechanisms" in this context. We can't bear to admit our wife has so thoroughly betrayed us so we attack the messenger. 



> Yes, there is evidence that she was emotionally involved, no there isn't evidecne of sex, it's not for the lack of me trying to find it.


This is rationalization. There is no sex because I have not seen them doing it yet. And yes, there is something you have steadfastly ignored, which is the polygraph. So it is for lack of you trying. 



> It's a shame that there's a minority on here that seem to find other people's misery so much fun.


More shaming. Plus exaggeration and playing the victim. There is nobody here having fun with your pain. This is a way to get people to stop telling you what you don't want to hear. 




> I am sorry that you have been hurt so badly that you have turned out that way. Assuming that is the case then maybe you could be a bit more understanding rather than jsut waiting to stick the boot in at every opportunity.


Logic: you were hurt so you are trying to hurt me. Endless playing the victim and false accusations. 



> No doubt, if I had come back and said I had proof of sex these same people would say 'we told you that all the time' and 'don't think it stopped at sex, there was probably plans to run off and marry...'


No, they would have killed you and tortured you first. 




> For info, the car-park meeting was 12th December, before I confronted. She has given me an explanation that I have to live with, I have no way of verifying it. what she says ties in with her text history that day.
> I confronted her about this at the time, e.g. the evening she met him (although didn't know that then). She said that she was panicked by my question, knew how it would sound and didn't want to take the risk so she lied. At this point she wouldn't have known that I was going to carry on digging and find the phone records etc. I believe what she says is plausible, I can imagine why she would lie. I'm not comfortable with it but I have no other way of verifying what she said.


One big mess of denial and rationalization. First, denying that they were conspiring together - this is the fundamental betrayal you don't seem to appreciate.

And secondly, requiring that you be forced to admit with incontrovertible evidence instead of using the brain God gave you. 




> You may ridicule me for that but for me, the lies and the the time she spent putting him before me with the texting is bad enough.
> 
> I am devestated to think that my wife would rather spend all day every day texting another guy than talk to me about how our relationship needed some work.
> 
> I am devestated that she lied to me and let me blame myself without accepting her share of the blame for how far apart we became.
> 
> I am devestated that to know that the woman I love above all else, the woman that I trusted implicitly, the woman whose honesty and integrity I believed was perfect, is in fact, just a normal person, capable of being dishonest to protect herself.
> 
> I am gutted to find out that the woman I want to be with till I die, can look me in the eye and tell me a lie.


Okay, but you are living in a fairy tale world where the only lies she has told you are those which you can prove with 100% certainty, at the same time a titanic ship of evidence has not even been seen yet, due to her destroying it. 





> I am now very much in control, I am no longer afraid to ask her to account for herself. I have told her not to work for this scum and she has agreed. No arguents, no if's, but's or maybe's, she just agreed.
> 
> So, I do know that it's possible that i might find out more in time however, what I want now is to know what to do going forwards on the basis that I want the relationship to work.
> 
> 1) Should I confront him? I don't know what I would say but I would like to let him know how angry I am and to ask him some questions about what on earth he thought he was doing.
> 
> 2) Should I arrange marriage councelling or wait and see if we can get by on our own.
> 
> 3) How do I rebuild my trust in her, I don't want to be in a relationship where I can't trust her to go to the shops on her own and where she is walking on egg shells permanently.
> 
> 4) How long does it take to stop obsessing over every little detail and laying awake at night wondering about what went on but never being able to know for sure. You see, if she is now being honest and it was not physical then how can I ever get to the point where I can believe that?
> 
> I don't know what else to say at the moment.


See how the polygraph is not in here? It has been suggested by numerous posters, and logically it is so obvious given the difficulty in retrieving what she has destroyed.

You've seen what confronting her with evidence has done. All good. This will do good too, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is to pound a stake through the heart of all the lying and put the white heat of truth upon her.

Nothing stops affairs like knowing you can't conceal them. That's why men have one night stands on business trips far from their home town. If they knew they were facing a polygraph de-briefing upon their return home, they wouldn't do it. 

So why no polygraph.


----------



## Disenchanted

I usually scoff at the recommendation to get a polygraph.

In this case, if you can do it calmly and without emotion, but in upbeat way, I say you should tell her you would like to take a polygraph. I have never suggested this before, but here I think it could be instrumental in your finding her true feelings. After all, that is what you really want to know, right?

If she is as repentant as you say, is willing to immediately end her job and go NC and even hopeful that you will put your foot down in this manner, she should have little problem with this request.

You're going to have to get a little courage and maintain your cool for this to work. Think of Picard issuing an order, or James Bond telling someone what he wants. You need confidence, and the only way you will get it is if you are prepared to leave her when she refuses to do it.

Find this resolve, ask her to take the polygraph, and her answer will tell you a lot. Be prepared to follow through with the test or to tell her that you are going to file for divorce because you do not want an open marriage with secrets and deceit.


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## carmen ohio

Wiseforit and Disenchanted, I agree that asking for a polygraph test is likely to flush out more facts. But based on how Andy's WW has responded so far (admitting to things when he simply says, I suspect you), my guess is that if he just says to her -- "I've been thinking about it and can't believe that the two of you simply sat and talked in the car park. Now tell me what really happened or I'm leaving you" -- she will confess the truth. Anyway, it can't hurt to try if he really wants to know what happened. If she continues to deny that anything physical happen, then he could say, "Would you agree to take a polygraph test so that I can confirm that you're telling me the truth." At that point, if she said, "yes," I would be inclined to believe her.


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## Disenchanted

carmen ohio said:


> Wiseforit and Disenchanted, I agree that asking for a polygraph test is likely to flush out more facts. But based on how Andy's WW has responded so far (admitting to things when he simply says, I suspect you), my guess is that if he just says to her -- "I've been thinking about it and can't believe that the two of you simply sat and talked in the car park. Now tell me what really happened or I'm leaving you" -- she will confess the truth. Anyway, it can't hurt to try if he really wants to know what happened. If she continues to deny that anything physical happen, then he could say, "Would you agree to take a polygraph test so that I can confirm that you're telling me the truth." At that point, if she said, "yes," I would be inclined to believe her.


I think this totally depends on his resolve and ability to remain composed and self assured. It worked for me, but it wasn't easy and I would have been left worse off if it hadn't. Because by the time I confronted her about it I was 100% convinced of the truth already, didn't need absolute proof. I was convinced it had gone PA, not in denial.

So basically I demanded that she confirm what I already knew, and she had no defense against that. Basically the same as providing proof.


----------



## weightlifter

i honestly think this could be solved with a single question on a polygraph.

Did you have groping, making out, nudity, manual, oral, or penetrative sex with plumber? if she passes he stays vigilant but keeps his mouth completely shut unless something new comes up. if she fails...

anyway andy fair travels and i hope some how some way you get absolute proof none of the items in my list never happened.


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## walkonmars

Andy you're getting excellent advice. I know you don't want to hear it. No one does. Dwell on it for a while. Then read it again. No one is gleefully getting a charge out of your predicament. 

In the meantime please, please - go and get an STD test. I know you don't think sex was involved. But if it was, it's likely the plumber gets around. The STDs that are out there today can be insidious. Be sure you're health is safeguarded.


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## Yessongs72

The lack of polygraph is very simple to explain. Andy is a Brit. Its a cultural thing, we just don't get it, polygraphs are as unatural to us as American Football, Baseball and racing cars that only turn left (and i say that having helped build cars that have won the Indy 500). The only Brit known for polygraph use is Jeremy Kyle and he is.. well, horrible.

This isn't really a defence, just an explanation.

And there's the 'suns' (recent posters on TAM) - both of them expected that he would pass the polygraph and he failed and he can't explain it - but i'm sure i read somewhere whilst researching polygraphs that (some say)there is a 38% chance of the test failing - more than a 1/3rd chance of the machine getting it wrong.


----------



## Wiserforit

carmen ohio said:


> Wiseforit and Disenchanted, I agree that asking for a polygraph test is likely to flush out more facts. But based on how Andy's WW has responded so far (admitting to things when he simply says, I suspect you), my guess is that if he just says to her -- "I've been thinking about it and can't believe that the two of you simply sat and talked in the car park. Now tell me what really happened or I'm leaving you" -- she will confess the truth. Anyway, it can't hurt to try if he really wants to know what happened. If she continues to deny that anything physical happen, then he could say, "Would you agree to take a polygraph test so that I can confirm that you're telling me the truth." At that point, if she said, "yes," I would be inclined to believe her.


Hi *Carmen*

A cheater tries to game her betrayed husband when she knows he is spying, but doesn't know the extent of it. 

So for example she admited to the plumber being around when she was there. That's a no-brainer since driving by will demonstrate both vehicles being there at the same time, and the likelihood is that it happened a LOT, like just about every Monday. It's clear to me she gave that up because she thought either he or an ally of his drove by to check up on them on more than one Monday. 

She was boxed in on the car park because he had the cell phone records so she had no choice but to admit they saw each other face-to-face. 

I agree with you that the threat of the lie detector is generally going to be enough to "out" the physical affair. But only if it is a credible threat. It is best laid down as an ultimatum, not a question you ask of them, and this ultimatum has to be genuine, not a bluff.

There are those that will lie straight through a lie detector, but I think you are right that this person is not one of them. But I would tell her I was scheduling it, not ask if she agrees to it.


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## 3putt

Yessongs72 said:


> The lack of polygraph is very simple to explain. Andy is a Brit. Its a cultural thing, we just don't get it, polygraphs are as unatural to us as American Football, Baseball and racing cars that only turn left (and i say that having helped build cars that have won the Indy 500). The only Brit known for polygraph use is Jeremy Kyle and he is.. well, horrible.
> 
> This isn't really a defence, just an explanation.
> 
> And there's the 'suns' (recent posters on TAM) - both of them expected that he would pass the polygraph and he failed and he can't explain it - but i'm sure i read somewhere whilst researching polygraphs that (some say)there is a 38% chance of the test failing - more than a 1/3rd chance of the machine getting it wrong.


While I understand what you are saying, the mere threat and thought of having to take a poly has provoked more confessions soon after that threat than I can ever recall. Then you add in the "parking lot" confessions that are spilled when it becomes obvious that this is _*really*_ going to happen, then it typically all comes flowing out because (unless you are trained in deception) the wayward then realizes they have back themselves into a corner that they really can't get out of...except by being completely honest. 

You don't even have to schedule the damned thing if you're that opposed to it. But to not utilize it as a psychological tool to extract as much truth as possible is just asinine to me.


----------



## Disenchanted

I have a feeling Andy is going to get the truth from her. 

He's gaining momentum. 

Andy, you have every right to be mad. Try it out.


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## OldWolf57

Andy, I for one didn't come here as a BS. I followed a link from the experience project.

The point I want make is this. He did a lot of work at your home, so that's where the bonding and A started. The working for him was just the excuse to be able to continue.
Being around your house allowed your kids to get used to him and her talking when she was home from work, so him coming there after the storm die down won't be unusual. 
So the VAR is a very good idea.
You kept saying you have no way to know if she spoke the truth.
That's where you wrong. Poly will get you what you want. You just don't want to know. Well OK. We go from there.
You get access and complete openness from here on.
As for him, I would call and tell him he is NEVER to contact my wife again. You don't owe him any explanation for this. Hell, he already know why. She has been telling him everything you say and do. So it won't be a surprise to him.
Do not engage him. State your demand and hang up. 

I can't really help with the hurt and trust. No one hurts me, and I deal with many ppl that I KNOW I can't trust, but that's just business.

I will say, you seem to be doing well. So keep up the good work and trust but verify.


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## OldWolf57

Andy, another point. Since she did admin. work for him, if you find they have broken NC, don't fall for the, " oh he needed to know where such an such file or invoice was.
Lost records is one of his consequences.


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## Machiavelli

Poly 

VAR


----------



## old timer

Poly "amorous"

VAR "Visit Access Request"

Sorry - couldn't help myself


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## idkwot2do

Hi Andy,

My story is very different from yours but I want to tell you something.

My H has cheated on me and I am cheating on my H and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that she is in deep with this guy.

When she told him that you were tracking her I knew for sure.
They are conspiring against you, she wouldnt even tell him that if they werent very close. She is confused and worried you will find everything out and she is telling him this, and so they are trying to keep it from you.

People on here can be negative and they do seem to look for the worst in every situation, atleast that has been my experience but I feel bad for you because I think they are all right.

You want to beleive the best so you are refusing to see the truth.

Her telling him you are tracking her and him asking what she said?

Doesnt that tell you everything? Why would he ask her what she said? Because he knows she possibly could have said something that proves what they are doing. I know you are already thinking this way and you dont need me to point it out.

I dont know what else to say except Im so sorry you are going through this.


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## dogman

Unfortunately Andy is going to find out some gut wrenching stuff soon. Sorry Andy.


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## sinnister

idkwot2do said:


> Hi Andy,
> 
> My story is very different from yours but I want to tell you something.
> 
> My H has cheated on me *and I am cheating on my H* and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that she is in deep with this guy.
> 
> When she told him that you were tracking her I knew for sure.
> They are conspiring against you, she wouldnt even tell him that if they werent very close. She is confused and worried you will find everything out and she is telling him this, and so they are trying to keep it from you.
> 
> *People on here can be negative *and they do seem to look for the worst in every situation, *atleast that has been my experience *but I feel bad for you because I think they are all right.
> 
> You want to beleive the best so you are refusing to see the truth.
> 
> Her telling him you are tracking her and him asking what she said?
> 
> Doesnt that tell you everything? Why would he ask her what she said? Because he knows she possibly could have said something that proves what they are doing. I know you are already thinking this way and you dont need me to point it out.
> 
> I dont know what else to say except Im so sorry you are going through this.


?????:scratchhead:


----------



## The bishop

Hey Andy,

This is all up to you and what you can handle. Is the unknown important for you to know? You have already caught her in a couple lies so in all honesty she is probably not telling you everything… but from hearing your story, you aren’t going to leave her regardless of what she may or may not have done. From what you described, she seems remorseful and willing to do the “heavy lifting”. You may never get the whole truth but in the end it is what she does from this point forward that will really matter. I recommend you hold her feet to the fire, so to speak, and not let her feel comfortable knowing she can always rely on you to fall back too. She has to know her past behavior, just the texting alone, while at the same time telling you she doesn’t have time (for her husband) to text can be considered an divorceable (if that is even a word) offense. Good Luck


----------



## Andy01

I'm sorry for venting at people on here. I was feeling picked upon and yes, I was playing the victim.
I've read the comments that got me so uptight again and the latest and tried to be a bit more objective.

I know that a lot of the advice is sound and I confess that I have been avoiding the poly issue. I've told her to expect lots I questions as I try to get to grips with this and will continue thinking about what has happened and will keep questioning. I found another text in one if the back up files that the software didn't pick up that has worried me and I'll think on asking her to take a poly to see her reaction. 
Oh, and its true, here in the UK, a lie detector has pretty negative press and is very alien. (Another excuse maybe).

Bottom line, I can't reconcile what I know already with her explanations, she is in denial about it even being an EA an continues to claim a friendship with silly texting that got out if hand.

I have taken his door key from her and intend to return it in person and ask a few questions to see if he gives the same answers. 

I thought I was doing well and would have this all neatly sewn up in a few days, I was wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

Just take your time Andy and come here and vent if you have to. You shouldn't take what's given personally. You have a form of PTSD right now. Take care of yourself.


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## Disenchanted

Andy01 said:


> I thought I was doing well and would have this all neatly sewn up in a few days, I was wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're starting to take action, this is good. Don't be complacent. 

That niggling in your gut is only going to turn into a massive gnawing and chomping until eventually you won't be able to take it anymore and will demand the truth. 

You're suspicions are not _ever going to go away_ until you are satisfied that you know the truth, so don't dilly dally getting it.


----------



## JMGrey

Andy01 said:


> I'm sorry for venting at people on here. I was feeling picked upon and yes, I was playing the victim.
> I've read the comments that got me so uptight again and the latest and tried to be a bit more objective.
> 
> I know that a lot of the advice is sound and I confess that I have been avoiding the poly issue. I've told her to expect lots I questions as I try to get to grips with this and will continue thinking about what has happened and will keep questioning. I found another text in one if the back up files that the software didn't pick up that has worried me and I'll think on asking her to take a poly to see her reaction.
> Oh, and its true, here in the UK, a lie detector has pretty negative press and is very alien. (Another excuse maybe).
> 
> Bottom line, I can't reconcile what I know already with her explanations, she is in denial about it even being an EA an continues to claim a friendship with silly texting that got out if hand.
> 
> I have taken his door key from her and intend to return it in person and ask a few questions to see if he gives the same answers.
> 
> I thought I was doing well and would have this all neatly sewn up in a few days, I was wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your best weapons in this situation are surprise and persistence. You need to ask her the questions you want answered sooner rather than later because the longer she has to come up with a defusing story the more effective it'll be in covering up the truth. Also, spring the questions on her when she's not expecting it. Don't give her time to mentally prepare her answers.


----------



## Chaparral

Andy01 said:


> I'm sorry for venting at people on here. I was feeling picked upon and yes, I was playing the victim.
> I've read the comments that got me so uptight again and the latest and tried to be a bit more objective.
> 
> I know that a lot of the advice is sound and I confess that I have been avoiding the poly issue. I've told her to expect lots I questions as I try to get to grips with this and will continue thinking about what has happened and will keep questioning. I found another text in one if the back up files that the software didn't pick up that has worried me and I'll think on asking her to take a poly to see her reaction.
> Oh, and its true, here in the UK, a lie detector has pretty negative press and is very alien. (Another excuse maybe).
> 
> Bottom line, I can't reconcile what I know already with her explanations, she is in denial about it even being an EA an continues to claim a friendship with silly texting that got out if hand.
> 
> I have taken his door key from her and intend to return it in person and ask a few questions to see if he gives the same answers.
> 
> I thought I was doing well and would have this all neatly sewn up in a few days, I was wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What program did you use? You can also see the messages with out a program but it is supposedly a bit confusing.


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## Rags

The bishop said:


> ... can be considered an divorceable (if that is even a word) offense


It is a word, although starting with consonant sound, it should be 'a divorceable offense.' (With a full stop.)

(In my defense, you did ask!)

Anyway, polygraphs - yeah, not a culturally common thing here in the UK. They have a bad press, and are considered tacky/sleazy, and worse, unreliable. That's not to say it couldn't be used, but it would probably be more tricky.

It is difficult - getting real honesty from someone you know has lied to to - and lied to you about something critically important. How do you trust any they say ever again?

Well, from what I've learned on here, they need to provide total transparency, a complete surendering of all and any secrets, behaviour or anything that you ask for, and prove through every action that they will do whatever it takes to restore that trust.

Are you seeing that?


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## sandc

Andy,
We truly don't intend to pick on you. It's just that these stories all play out the same. Do you care to share the text that worries you? Or are you worried that we'll all just confirm what you're already fearing?

Please note that talking to him will almost certainly do you no good. She knows you are suspicious and they've already had time to get their stories straight. You either forge ahead and pay for a program that will decrypt the backup files for you or go for the poly. It's the only way the truth will come out. The mere threat of a poly won't do. You have to drive her there. Most likely she will confess to more once you've reached the car park.

Remember:
We're just friends = an emotional affair
We just kissed once = we've had sex multiple times

She will only confess to what you already tell her you know. Don't reveal your sources of information.


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## walkonmars

Andy, don't bother with the sleezeball plumber. Chances are, he has spoken to your wife and they got their stories straight. You going to him will not give him guilt or remorse, just a sense that he got away clean.

You should get checked for STIs. Tell your wife you're going to do that. It sends a message to her thay you think she's lying & it's a precaution you really should take for your health's sake.


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## t_hopper_2012

Andy,
How many different "backup extractor" utilities did you try? It seems that there are a number on the market. You may find that you have different results with another program.

I would also suggest that you find a way to view the backup files as raw text. There have been other threads here where people have reported finding text messages after "digging through the backup files".

To summarize:

- make a backup of your backups before really digging into them
- try a number of different utilities
- as a last resort, view the files as text (Notepad++ is a good text editor for windows) and then dig through them

These text messages are your only source of pure truth. Don't give up on them so easily.


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## johnnycomelately

Andy01 said:


> I'm sorry for venting at people on here. I was feeling picked upon and yes, I was playing the victim.


Geezer, you are going through hell, don't worry about offending people on here.


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## Andy01

I have purchased and used both Tenorshare data recovery and Wondershare data recovery. I have also viewed the back up files manually. I had also seen the article about nothing really being deleted even when overwritten. Unfortunately, the guy that wrote the post didn't go on to say how to find stuff that had been deleted and overwritten.

The text said:

I'll save the kisses till next time I see you. Hopefully Thursday and Friday although today would be better of course! Have a nice shower xxxx.
She sent the text on the 20th October. It was the following Thursday and Friday that she was due to go and visit her aunts. The trip was cancelled because the aunt decided to visit us the next week.
I've asked about this. She gave some lame excuse about how the text was written wrong and should have sod Thursday or Friday and that she was going to pop round and take a photo of his van. I forget why. It doesn't matter, even I have a hard time swallowing this one!

I'm laying next to her now, I still find it hard to believe what she has done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sandc

Sorry mate. She's had sex with him. The reference to kissing and showering is unmistakable. She can't explain it away.


----------



## Rags

Very sorry to hear that. Until she starts telling the truth, nothing is going to work, I fear.

I doubt she will start telling the truth until she's truly afraid of not doing so.

Trickle-Truth & Gaslighting, I think they're called - I believe it's in the script.


----------



## bfree

Andy01 said:


> I have purchased and used both Tenorshare data recovery and Wondershare data recovery. I have also viewed the back up files manually. I had also seen the article about nothing really being deleted even when overwritten. Unfortunately, the guy that wrote the post didn't go on to say how to find stuff that had been deleted and overwritten.
> 
> The text said:
> 
> I'll save the kisses till next time I see you. Hopefully Thursday and Friday although today would be better of course! Have a nice shower xxxx.
> She sent the text on the 20th October. It was the following Thursday and Friday that she was due to go and visit her aunts. The trip was cancelled because the aunt decided to visit us the next week.
> I've asked about this. She gave some lame excuse about how the text was written wrong and should have sod Thursday or Friday and that she was going to pop round and take a photo of his van. I forget why. It doesn't matter, even I have a hard time swallowing this one!
> 
> I'm laying next to her now, I still find it hard to believe what she has done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh man. Sorry Andy. I'm not going to say what I'm thinking about that text but I'm sure you can guess. I don't think it can be explained away. Have a pint and a shot and brace yourself.


----------



## skip76

I personally have no problem talking with the OM. I no longer let anything effect me, so i would take advantage and bring him the key. A lot of good info can be had, even if the stories are the same, how much the same. Everybody remembers everything slightly different so when two stories line up to good, well i don't believe in coincidences. My biggest help was forcing myself to think and talk slowly, less is more, let them wonder what you are thinking or why isnt he saying anything, does he know, did i get away with it, wtf, i just can't tell. haha


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## sandc

I know you can't sleep right now. IF it were me, I'd get up and pack her bags. Tell her not to come home for a while. Tell her you need to think. Still at this point do NOT reveal your source of information. Her head will be spinning trying to figure out how you know. Just tell her you know all you need to know. And you do, in fact, don't you?


----------



## bfree

sandc said:


> I know you can't sleep right now. IF it were me, I'd get up and pack her bags. Tell her not to come home for a while. Tell her you need to think. Still at this point do NOT reveal your source of information. Her head will be spinning trying to figure out how you know. Just tell her you know all you need to know. And you do, in fact, don't you?


I don't know if Andy is ready for that yet but you are right that move is extremely effective. Taking a person out of their comfort zone and taking yourself away from them often makes them reevaluate how they are handling things. It will also make Andy look very strong in her eyes and increase his value to her.


----------



## Will_Kane

Andy01 said:


> I have purchased and used both Tenorshare data recovery and Wondershare data recovery. I have also viewed the back up files manually. I had also seen the article about nothing really being deleted even when overwritten. Unfortunately, the guy that wrote the post didn't go on to say how to find stuff that had been deleted and overwritten.
> 
> The text said:
> 
> *I'll save the kisses till next time I see you. Hopefully Thursday and Friday although today would be better of course! Have a nice shower xxxx*.
> She sent the text on the 20th October. It was the following Thursday and Friday that she was due to go and visit her aunts. The trip was cancelled because the aunt decided to visit us the next week.
> I've asked about this. *She gave some lame excuse about how the text was written wrong and should have sod Thursday or Friday and that she was going to pop round and take a photo of his van*. I forget why. It doesn't matter, even I have a hard time swallowing this one!
> 
> I'm laying next to her now, I still find it hard to believe what she has done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Who cares about the Thursday and Friday, what did she say about the kisses?


----------



## walkonmars

Sorry Andy, I know you're a good man. You don't deserve this. That slimeball has turned your wife into something she never thought she'd be. A liar and a cheat. 

You need to straighten this out with her. She can never again think it's okay to go outside the marriage and comfort another man and stay married to you. Never


----------



## Will_Kane

She's still claiming they were only friends, never even kissed?


----------



## MattMatt

It is a PA, isn't it? 

Stay strong. Hopefully you can get her to pull herself out of his clutches. He has probably done this kind of thing before.


----------



## walkonmars

MattMatt said:


> It is a PA, isn't it?
> 
> Stay strong. Hopefully you can get her to pull herself out of his clutches. He has probably done this kind of thing before.


Yes he sucked her in. But she was willing and continued to go while lying to her faithful husband. Truly shameful.


----------



## Chaparral

I know personally of a man that used to work for a big local HVAC company. He banged several customers wives. He got caught more than once. He is now married to one of his friends wives. They are both serial cheaters.

Andy put the plumber on cheaterville.com with his picture however you have to get it. You may save someone elses family.

Just put on what you have proof for. You can add to it later. Everyone here that has done this has been really happy with the results.


----------



## Chaparral

It will also let you know if he contacts her as she will flip out.


----------



## Acabado

It was clearly a EA-PA. Nothing will be fixed if she doesn't come clean.

But I want to point out the fact she didn't quit that job until the yesterday ultimatum man! What was going on until yesterday? Of course ther texting slowed down, she knew you were onto her.


----------



## Shaggy

My gut says it has been a PA and that right now she is laying low hoping the storm will pass. That's when it. Would resume, when she feels you've had enough time to have become complacent.

You really need to have a var helping you detect if she's talking to him.

When things settle down and she thinks its clear is when you need to watch out. Be on the watch for odd missing time, shopping trips,or him popping by for a romp.


----------



## theroad

VAR, key logger, GPS wifes car.

Meets OM in parking lot? Why? When she goes to his house, texts, emails, phones, what could not be done electronically that had to be done in person?

Showers, etc, more info keeps leaking out.

Polygraph the WW.

You have kept douting us but as a WW's and BH's have posted to you this is a PA.


----------



## OldWolf57

Truly sorry Andy.
And we knew you was just lashing out.
What we want is for you to get the answers you need. for most of us, it's no fun watching lives blowup because of selfishness and deceit.
That's why you have to move NOW. Do not let her get comfortable a lil bit.
Her and dirt bag has gotten their story lined up, so talking to him is a waste.

Andy, this has been going on since this guy did work for you. You can take this to the bank.
You may not want to hear this, but you need to move fast now. You have to do the unexpected. She's scared, but she is also relying on how well she know you, so her fear is you finding out the truth, not you kicking her out or having her take a poly. 

Tell her you know she was screwing him and you want a D. Tell her you are NEVER going to believe anything different, and her disgusting disrespectful refusal to tell the truth when caught, is making you come to hate her, so she has to go.

And Andy, she don't gets a chance to spin it again.
The only words out of her mouth are words detailing the affair.
It started in your house and if she say anything else, start packing her crap in trash bags as messy as you can.
Shock the sh!t out of her and you may save yourself months lies and TT. Fake it till you get it.


----------



## jim123

Andy01 said:


> I have purchased and used both Tenorshare data recovery and Wondershare data recovery. I have also viewed the back up files manually. I had also seen the article about nothing really being deleted even when overwritten. Unfortunately, the guy that wrote the post didn't go on to say how to find stuff that had been deleted and overwritten.
> 
> The text said:
> 
> I'll save the kisses till next time I see you. Hopefully Thursday and Friday although today would be better of course! Have a nice shower xxxx.
> She sent the text on the 20th October. It was the following Thursday and Friday that she was due to go and visit her aunts. The trip was cancelled because the aunt decided to visit us the next week.
> I've asked about this. She gave some lame excuse about how the text was written wrong and should have sod Thursday or Friday and that she was going to pop round and take a photo of his van. I forget why. It doesn't matter, even I have a hard time swallowing this one!
> 
> I'm laying next to her now, I still find it hard to believe what she has done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Andy,

I know this is hard. If you look at other threads like yours you will find out that you need to be decisive now. You know there is more. In a car for a half hour? 

If you are soft the affair will continue again. He will drop by and off she goes again. Only reality beats fantacy.

The best way to beat a liar is to be a better liar. When you meet the OM tell him your wife told you everything and all you want to do is confirm they slept together twice. You want to make sure the stories match so you can trust her again. Since you seem to know that something happened, he will say yes only twice. 

If you can't do that then continue to pressure your wife. You need to keep up the pressure. Tell her you were not born yesterday and you know more happen in the parking lot. Don;t let her treat you like a fool. If she does not confess then ask her to leave. Tell her the only way you can forgive is it you know the truth. This is actually true by the way.

Go see an attorney. Get the paperwork. Let her know you are considering D and you should be.

You have to go hard against the plummer. You need to back him off.

You have to get control. You have to put a stop now.


----------



## OldWolf57

Jim, she did work for the guy at his house once a week. The parking lot was getting a lil quickie to celebrate getting away with the lie.
It made them hot knowing how well they fooled Andy.

Well what they don't know, Andy has a team of some of the best low thinking SOB's looking out for him, and is going to hold his feet to the fire, till she cry uncle.

Go get em Andy.


----------



## turnera

Most people who use polygraphs find that they get more info from the cheater on the way TO the test than in the test itself. It's a psychological thing, for some reason people just freak out at the thought of getting strapped into that machine, and they for some reason want to have told you the bad stuff already, as opposed to getting 'caught' during the test.


----------



## Humble Pie

Andy, why did you let her slip away with her excuse about "it was written wrong"? You have got to be more firm with her, pin her down (not literally ofcourse) with why she sent "kiss you" in her text. If you do not the first time confronting, it is harder the next time. 

Sorry, as I am sure you know, this has been a PA for sometime now. As others have advised, you need to put the hammer down on her lying, and total disrespect she is showing you.


----------



## Wiserforit

Andy01 said:


> The text said:
> 
> I'll save the kisses till next time I see you. Hopefully Thursday and Friday although today would be better of course! Have a nice shower xxxx.


One step closer. Every inch of the way experience has proven correct, yet the epiphany is still ahead. Your moment of clarity. 

You will be forgiven for the long reign of denial, so long as you keep plodding on. Because the evidence is all there, and the passion too great between them. They aren't going to stop until a greater force intercedes.


----------



## Andy01

I have contacted OM by text, said I have his key and want to meet to return it and have a chat. 
There are things she has admitted to me or that I have found out about and asked her about since the contact stopped that he shouldn't know I know.
E.g he doesn't know that I know they met in the car park, he doesn't know that I know the volume of texting, he doesn't know that I know about 'that text'.
Well, he shouldn't know unless they have been in touch.

So, I intend to meet him and ask some questions and compare them to what I already know and what my wife has told me.

I will continue to pressure my wife. I need to be more structured about it though, so far I've just blurted stuff out and I need to be cooler and calmer.
I have started pulling together all my evidence to date and a list of questions. I've probably asked before but wasn't really thinking about her answers, just listening to the 'I love you' and the ' you mean more to me than anything' and 'it was all just stupid, I don't know what came over me'.

As suggested, I need to listen carefully, tell her when an answer like 'all those texts meant so little that I can't remember what we talked about, it was all just silly rubbish' isn't acceptable or that I don't believe her. I will have a list of questions written out before I speak to her again.

Still feel uncomfortable with the polygraph idea but am really considering spending a few days away from home, it's too easy to get sucked in to the lovey dovey stuff and end up feeling sorry for her when I'm there.

And, re-reading some comments on here, and my own, I can't believe how easily I get side tracked, the business with the text, I just concentrated on whether she had planned to go away together and ignored the rest of it. I need to make her explain herself!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

bfree said:


> Andy,
> 
> I was going to type out a very long reply to you but then I thought "why bother." You are obviously too devastated to ensure it won't happen again and in fact you are choosing to rug sweep this almost ensuring it will happen again. You have decided to believe her regardless of the fact that she has repeatedly lied to you in the recent past. You are a man that prefers closing your eyes to the dangers of the world so that you can be surprised when life kicks you in the [email protected]


Quoted for truth. One can easily understand his denial at the enormity of what is happening to him, it seems to be almost a survival reflex or something for betrayed husbands to clam up this way.



> Just one question. If you don't know what she has actually done and why she did it, how are you going to ensure it won't happen again? If you can live with that question unanswered I guess all I can say is have a good life (right up until the day your are served.)


Andy, this is the more important part. I hope you read the above quoted paragraph, and percolate on it for awhile.

Although your pain is indescribable, you are not the first man whose wife cheated on him, and you won't be the last.

That plumbers penis has been inside your wife's vagina. Many, many times. It is excrutiatingly obvious to impartial outsiders with experience and the benefit of perspective. Sorry to phrase it crudely but "dems the grim meathook facts"

Please don't rugsweep.

I really hope you come through the other side of this Hell in one piece, and hope you listen to the experienced posters on this site, they have seen it all, and have only your best interests at heart.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

> I'll save the kisses till next time I see you. Hopefully Thursday and Friday although today would be better of course! Have a nice shower xxxx.


What more does he need to see?

Maxim #54: When a woman has incentive to lie, she will choose lying over honesty EVERY SINGLE TIME


----------



## dogman

Andy01 said:


> I have contacted OM by text, said I have his key and want to meet to return it and have a chat.
> There are things she has admitted to me or that I have found out about and asked her about since the contact stopped that he shouldn't know I know.
> E.g he doesn't know that I know they met in the car park, he doesn't know that I know the volume of texting, he doesn't know that I know about 'that text'.
> Well, he shouldn't know unless they have been in touch.
> 
> So, I intend to meet him and ask some questions and compare them to what I already know and what my wife has told me.
> 
> I will continue to pressure my wife. I need to be more structured about it though, so far I've just blurted stuff out and I need to be cooler and calmer.
> I have started pulling together all my evidence to date and a list of questions. I've probably asked before but wasn't really thinking about her answers, just listening to the 'I love you' and the ' you mean more to me than anything' and 'it was all just stupid, I don't know what came over me'.
> 
> As suggested, I need to listen carefully, tell her when an answer like 'all those texts meant so little that I can't remember what we talked about, it was all just silly rubbish' isn't acceptable or that I don't believe her. I will have a list of questions written out before I speak to her again.
> 
> Still feel uncomfortable with the polygraph idea but am really considering spending a few days away from home, it's too easy to get sucked in to the lovey dovey stuff and end up feeling sorry for her when I'm there.
> 
> And, re-reading some comments on here, and my own, I can't believe how easily I get side tracked, the business with the text, I just concentrated on whether she had planned to go away together and ignored the rest of it. I need to make her explain herself!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Andy, in all honesty I don't think I could pull off the polygraph either. Unless she admitted a PA then it would be no problem.

We all believe this was at least to some degree physical, at least kissing from the texts. Chances are, without knowing how your wife views sex, thre was opportunity for sex weekly.

You have to stay on this, and somehow get her to admit the truth. 

The problem is....what if you have the truth... The polygraph would really help you put this away for good. If you can explain to her that it's not that you 100% believe she slept with him, it's actually that you want to stop bothering her with the questions. 

Maybe that will work.


----------



## Chaparral

Do you have a land line that she could still be calling from? Also look for a burner phone. You need a VAR.


----------



## sandc

dogman said:


> Andy, in all honesty I don't think I could pull off the polygraph either. Unless she admitted a PA then it would be no problem.


Aye, there's the rub. I don't think he'll get her to admit PA without the threat of a poly. He doesn't have enough evidence to prove to HER that he knows she cheated. Even though he may be satisfied, I suspect Andy will not truly be satisfied until he makes HER understand that she cheated and he knows she cheated.


----------



## carmen ohio

Andy01 said:


> *I have contacted OM by text, said I have his key and want to meet to return it and have a chat. *
> There are things she has admitted to me or that I have found out about and asked her about since the contact stopped that he shouldn't know I know.
> E.g he doesn't know that I know they met in the car park, he doesn't know that I know the volume of texting, he doesn't know that I know about 'that text'.
> Well, he shouldn't know unless they have been in touch.
> 
> So, I intend to meet him and ask some questions and compare them to what I already know and what my wife has told me.
> 
> *I will continue to pressure my wife.* I need to be more structured about it though, so far I've just blurted stuff out and I need to be cooler and calmer.
> I have started pulling together all my evidence to date and a list of questions. I've probably asked before but wasn't really thinking about her answers, just listening to the 'I love you' and the ' you mean more to me than anything' and 'it was all just stupid, I don't know what came over me'.
> 
> As suggested, *I need to listen carefully, tell her when an answer like 'all those texts meant so little that I can't remember what we talked about, it was all just silly rubbish' isn't acceptable or that I don't believe her. I will have a list of questions written out before I speak to her again.*
> 
> Still feel uncomfortable with the polygraph idea but *am really considering spending a few days away from home, it's too easy to get sucked in to the lovey dovey stuff and end up feeling sorry for her when I'm there.*
> 
> *And, re-reading some comments on here, and my own, I can't believe how easily I get side tracked, the business with the text, I just concentrated on whether she had planned to go away together and ignored the rest of it. I need to make her explain herself!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dear Andy,

I am very sorry to learn about this latest text message from your WW. Certainly, you must realize by now that she has been physically intimate with the plumber. What else do you need to uncover in order to reach this conclusion, a text from your WW saying, "I had a great time f*cking you yesterday"?

And what is the point of "pressuring" your WW any more? It is obvious that she is still lying to you and will continue to lie as long as she believes that she can get away with it. If you want the truth from her, you must convince her that more lies mean the end of your marriage. Nothing short of that will work.

I suspect that the reason you continue to waste time gathering more evidence is because you don't want to face up to the decision you have to make -- whether you are prepared to divorce your WW if she does not end her PA with the plumber, tell you the truth about what she has done and start doing the things she needs to do to help you rebuild your marriage.

Here's the rub, Andy. Unless she believes that you are willing to divorce her, she has no reason to end her affair and come clean with you. The sooner she understands that you have had enough and are prepared to end your marriage, the sooner you will learn whether she is truly remorseful and wants to fix her marriage or not. This is what your really need to know.

And, given how weak you appear every time you confront her, there is no chance of you fooling her into thinking that you will divorce her and unless you are really prepared to do it. You aren't a good enough actor. 

So you have a decision to make. Are you prepared to divorce your WW if she doesn't end her affair, tell you the truth about what happened, beg you for forgiveness and start the long, arduous task of regaining your trust? If you are, and if you tell her that you are in a convincing manner, there is a good chance that your marriage can be saved. (Of course, it also depends on whether your WW really wants to remain married to you and I suspect that another reason you are dithering is because you are afraid she does not).

If you are not prepared to divorce her, you can expect many more months, and possibly years, of heartbreak, false reconciliations, more cheating and lies and, eventually, the end of your marriage after you have been emotionally destroyed.

My advice is to consult with a divorce attorney and tell him to start drawing up the papers. Once you have done this, and only then, sit your WW down and say the following:

"I have had enough of your lies. I know that you are cheating on me so stop denying it.

"I cannot continue to live like this. I deserve a wife who is faithful and honest and you are neither of these things.

"So, I have hired a lawyer, he is preparing the divorce papers as we speak and I intend to file for divorce as soon as possible unless you do the following.

"First, you must tell me _now_ everything that you have done behind my back. I want to know everything you have said to the OM and everything you have done with him that, as a married woman, you should not have done. I am only going to give you one chance to tell me everything. If I subsequently learn that you have left anything out or misled me in any way about the extent of you infidelity, then I will divorce you. I want you to tell me, now, and then I want you to put it in writing so that you cannot come back later and claim that you told me something which you did not.

"Second, I want you to send a letter to the OM saying that you regret what the two of you have done because it was wrong, that you want to try to save your marriage and that therefore you never again want to see him or communicate with him or want him to communicate with you. You will show me the letter so that I am satisfied with it and I will post it. After that, you will never again see him or try to contact him and, if he tries to contact you, you will not reply and immediately tell me about it.

"Third, from now on, you will show me all of your e-mails and texts so that I can verify that you are keeping your promises. You will not have any communications device or account that I do not know about and you will not delete messages before I see them.

"Fourth, you will demonstrate to me on a daily basis that you are truly remorseful for the great injustice you have done to me and to your family by being an unfaithful and dishonest wife. You will not expect me to trust you because you do not deserve to be trusted. You will not expect me to be sympathetic to you because you do not deserve sympathy. Instead, you will do everything I ask and everything you can think of to start proving to me that you can once again be the woman I fell in love with, married and planned to spend my life with. It is your responsibility to prove to me, over time, that you love me, value me and can be a good wife. It is also your responsibility to help me deal with the enormous pain I am in because of what you have done. If you can do this, there is hope for us and our marriage. If you can't, then I will have no choice but to divorce you. I don't know how long it will take to rebuild my trust in and affection for you but I know it will take a long time. So, if you aren't willing to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes, tell me now so that I can end this marriage.

"If you want time to think about this, I will give you five minutes and no more. If you can't decide in that amount of time whether you want to remain my wife, can be faithful to and honest with me, and are willing to do whatever else I need you to do, then I intend to divorce you whatever you say later.

"What is your answer."

Tell her this in as calm and firm a manner as you can. Don't argue with her; if she raises objections, tell her you're not going to debate, you just want her answer so that you know if you should file for divorce or not. If she complains about marriage problems, say that you know that your marriage wasn't perfect and don't claim that you were a perfect husband, but she wasn't a perfect wife either and you didn't deal with the problems by lying and cheating, she did. If she says she agrees but does so with a bad attitude, tell her that that is not good enough and that you intend to file for divorce because it is clear from her attitude that she doesn't mean what she says. Finally, and most importantly, if she does show remorse and says she'll do whatever it takes, don't go all soft inside and start telling her how much you love her and how happy you are that she is finally doing the right thing. Simply accept her promise and tell her to write the letter to the OM. 

The point is to let your WW know that her marriage to you is over unless she ends her affair once and for all, tells you everything and starts to help you rebuild your marriage. If you can do this, there is good chance your marriage can be saved. If you can't, then suck it up and prepare for a miserable life.

It's up to you.


P.S.: Do not leave your home. You didn't cheat, she did; if anyone should move out, it is her. Also, it is a sign of extreme weakness for you to leave as it tells her that you can't deal with her cheating. It also makes it easier for her to continue to cheat. Be careful about leaving because, in some places, doing so can constitute abandonment with unpleasant legal consequences.


P.P.S.: Talking to the OM is also a sign of weakness (unless you intend to beat the cr*p out of him, which I do not advise as it could land you in jail). He has no reason to be honest with you and owes you nothing. If effect, you are begging another man to stop f*cking your wife -- there's nothing more pathetic than that. If you have to go through with it, simply give him the key and tell him you know what he has done and someday he will be sorry (but don't threaten to do anything to him).


----------



## JMGrey

sandc said:


> Aye, there's the rub. I don't think he'll get her to admit PA without the threat of a poly. He doesn't have enough evidence to prove to HER that he knows she cheated. Even though he may be satisfied, I suspect Andy will not truly be satisfied until he makes HER understand that she cheated and he knows she cheated.


Agreed. His wife is one of those WSs that, unless you have 1080p, well-lit video of her banging the OM, she'll say it's all in Andy's head. When I first heard Andy's story I was pretty sure it was a PA. Now I'm positive.


----------



## sandc

I like everything that Carmen said with the exception of don't tell her you're filing for divorce if... Tell her you are filing for divorce no matter what. You will consider not divorcing if you BELIEVE that she has told you the full truth. 

Be aware that it will actually take some time before the full truth comes out. She is very much in the fog right now. Only the 2x4 to the head of divorce will BEGIN to wake her up.


----------



## sandc

JMGrey said:


> Agreed. His wife is one of those WSs that, unless you have 1080p, well-lit video of her banging the OM, she'll say it's all in Andy's head. When I first heard Andy's story I was pretty sure it was a PA. Now I'm positive.


This WW is going to be a gaslighter and rug-sweeper extraordinaire methinks.


----------



## Jasel

I wouldn't even bring up a Poly unless she admits to the affair, agrees to commit to the heavy lifting of R on all the terms he sets, and he stops coming to her with a beta mentality. 

If she's still lying, denying, cheating and doesn't seem to have much respect for him why would she agree to a polygraph? 

Not saying he shouldn't ask for one at some point in time, if he feels he needs it, but I think he has several steps he has to get out of the way first. That's a card I'd save for later.


----------



## carmen ohio

sandc said:


> I like everything that Carmen said with the exception of don't tell her you're filing for divorce if... Tell her you are filing for divorce no matter what. You will consider not divorcing if you BELIEVE that she has told you the full truth.
> 
> Be aware that it will actually take some time before the full truth comes out. She is very much in the fog right now. Only the 2x4 to the head of divorce will BEGIN to wake her up.


sandc,

I don't see much difference between saying "I will file for divorce unless . . ." and "I will consider not divorcing you if . . ."

I'll just be surprised if Andy can work up the courage to say either of these things.

Regards,


----------



## Disenchanted

My thoughts:

Don't bother with the OM. Put the key in the garbage can. Nothing good will come out of that interaction and it emasculates you.

Read Carmen's post, even print it out and study it, and DO IT.

You are up to 26 pages now, about the same number it took for me to realize that divorce would be a better option than the alternative. It's time for you to come to terms with this new reality too. 

When I told my WS that I had had enough and was 100% ready for divorce, in a very calm unemotional manner, she gave me all the details of her affair that I wanted. 

It was at that point that I was VERY clear on what was required for my healing. That was thanks to all the good folks here on TAM. So receive the support you are being given and put the advice to use. Carmen's post is right on. 

And the most important piece of advice I can possibly give you is this: DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOUSE.

Contact an attorney for a complete explanation of that advice.

And Andy, consider looking for a therapist/psychologist/counselor as soon as possible. This is not going to be easy for you and you are going to need the help. It's worth it. Just make sure you find one that you are comfortable with and one that has experience with infidelity. 

Good luck Andy, we're behind you 100% and don't think for one second that I am enjoying your story. It has been on my mind a lot when I'm away from the computer and I am, to a certain extent, reliving my own horrible experience through reading about yours.

It's not fair, I understand that feeling. You have done nothing to deserve this and it simply doesn't make sense. It's a horrible feeling, but it is true. You are a good man and you deserve to be loved and respected, you did not deserve this at all. Do not let anyone tell you anything else. 

You deserve to be happy and free of lies, do not forget that. And you should do whatever it takes to achieve that, including ejecting liars and people who don't respect you straight out of your life.


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## sandc

carmen ohio said:


> sandc,
> 
> I don't see much difference between saying "I will file for divorce unless . . ." and "I will consider not divorcing you if . . ."
> 
> I'll just be surprised if Andy can work up the courage to say either of these things.
> 
> Regards,


She absolutely has to know that the divorce is coming. I suspect she knows how to play Andy so I would like to see the divorce paperwork filed. If it's merely the threat of divorce she will probably think she can manipulate him into not filing.

But I agree with you on the last point completely.

We're not trying to beat you up Andy, merely a manly punch in the arm to spur you to action.


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## tom67

By being strong enough to end the marriage you just might be able to salvage it, stay frosty and strong. You may look at the situation and may NOT want to salvage this take your time and asses.


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## JMGrey

sandc said:


> She absolutely has to know that the divorce is coming. I suspect she knows how to play Andy so I would like to see the divorce paperwork filed. If it's merely the threat of divorce she will probably think she can manipulate him into not filing.
> 
> But I agree with you on the last point completely.
> 
> We're not trying to beat you up Andy, merely a manly punch in the arm to spur you to action.


Exactly. And more to the point he should contact a lawyer and get the paperwork filled out before he tells his wife. Otherwise she'll just dissemble him into submission like she's done since this whole thing started.


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## Disenchanted

All he needs to do is *MAKE THE DECISION* that he is not going to tolerate being treated this way anymore.

It is only one little decision, and that is all that is standing in his way.


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## Soifon

Andy, I would be a whole lot of money that she is still in contact with him. Just because you aren't seeing texts on the phone records doesn't mean she has cut it off.

She has an Iphone 4S, look on it for apps that have chat features. Even the "__withFriends" games ie. Words with Friends, Chess with Friends, etc. They all have a chat feature to them. Also go to the app store on her phone, then click on "updates" then "purchased". You can see what apps she has downloaded and deleted. She may be downloading and deleting a chat type of app on a daily basis.


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## idkwot2do

The fact that she is lying and denying it sooo much even though it is positively happening because you already have the proof you are searching for tells me that she is seriously considering leaving you for the plumber.

I think she had develpoed strong feelings for him because this affair has been going on for quite sometime and now she is confused and cant decide between you or him that is why she has not stopped.

I think filing for D will be the wake up call she MUST HAVE that will hopefully pull her out of the fog.

You can alk talk talk to her all day and night and she will keep lying to you because its only talk.

You need to force her to take you seriously.

As for talking to the other guy? what will that achieve? He will deny everything and if you expect him to have sympathy for you and realize he is wrong....Im sorry to tell you he wont, he has already justified himself in his mind. 

File the papers....it might save your marriage, the longer you wait the longer the affair goes on, the more attached she gets to him.

They have secrets that are only between them, they are in cahoots and that is making their bond tighter and tighter.


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## sandc

How are you doing Andy?


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## anonymous1978

The only way I finally got any type of confession in my own situation was by pretending like I already knew "something". I had to be unfaltering in my act AND continue to pretend like I already knew there was MORE after the stories started trickling out...if I hadn't done this, there are several things I never would have known about. Considering how similar your situation seems to my experience, this may work for you, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Andy01

So, my wife has now admitted that she was in an EA, she found it hard to use the waords but did when pushed.
She also admits to kissing but nothing more.

I forgve her but I won't forget.
I'll continue monitoring and she knows this.

At this time I believe what she says, I feel it in my gut. We had a long discussion about everything and I asked about everything.

Obviously, I'll still wonder but until now, all her explanations left me feeling that there was more. I don't feel that now.

I've bought the Married mans sex primer which is interesting and i'll try and improve myself to improve our relationship.

We are both saying that we want to make it work.

I'll stop coming here for a while because it makes it difficult to truly work at my marriage but I do appreciate all the well meaning advice and the help with what to do etc.

I'll be back at some point to give an up-date, good or bad I'm hoping it will be good.

Many thanks all.


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## Rags

Hope so too, Andy.

Good luck.


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## tom67

Hope it works out Andy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carmen ohio

Andy01 said:


> So, my wife has now admitted that she was in an EA, she found it hard to use the waords but did when pushed.
> She also admits to kissing but nothing more.
> 
> I forgve her but I won't forget.
> I'll continue monitoring and she knows this.
> 
> At this time I believe what she says, I feel it in my gut. We had a long discussion about everything and I asked about everything.
> 
> Obviously, I'll still wonder but until now, all her explanations left me feeling that there was more. I don't feel that now.
> 
> I've bought the Married mans sex primer which is interesting and i'll try and improve myself to improve our relationship.
> 
> We are both saying that we want to make it work.
> 
> *I'll stop coming here for a while because it makes it difficult to truly work at my marriage* but I do appreciate all the well meaning advice and the help with what to do etc.
> 
> I'll be back at some point to give an up-date, good or bad I'm hoping it will be good.
> 
> Many thanks all.


Andy,

I also wish you well.

I must say, however, that, to me, your statement that reading TAM is making it more difficult to work on your marriage reflects a reluctance on your part to take the steps you need to take to have a successful reconciliation. These includes insisting that your WW tell you everything. IMHO, she has not done that.

But perhaps I'm wrong and maybe your gut is correct.

I hope so for your sake.


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## sandc

Andy,
I hope you read this and I hope you take it in the spirit in which it is intended. I am not getting any joy out of telling you this. She admitting to kissing him because she thinks that is all you can handle. She is right. You can't handle the full truth. She has in fact had sex with this man. What's more, they are not done yet. They are going underground for a while. You know the shower message means more than kissing.

So, in the weeks and months ahead when you do find out there was more to it, and you will, we will be here. NO ONE will point any fingers and say we told you so. Because we have already told you so. Best of luck.


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## kenmoore14217

Great news Andy, wish you all the best. Please keep in mind that there are others here that could benefit from YOUR experience so please don't shut them off!! 

Good luck.


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## Kallan Pavithran

The problem is that he know the truth but not yet ready to accept the truth. In strong denial. 
May god be with him and give him the strength to handle the truth.


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## JMGrey

Andy01 said:


> So, my wife has now admitted that she was in an EA, she found it hard to use the waords but did when pushed.
> She also admits to kissing but nothing more.
> 
> I forgve her but I won't forget.
> I'll continue monitoring and she knows this.
> 
> At this time I believe what she says, I feel it in my gut. We had a long discussion about everything and I asked about everything.
> 
> Obviously, I'll still wonder but until now, all her explanations left me feeling that there was more. I don't feel that now.
> 
> I've bought the Married mans sex primer which is interesting and i'll try and improve myself to improve our relationship.
> 
> We are both saying that we want to make it work.
> 
> I'll stop coming here for a while because it makes it difficult to truly work at my marriage but I do appreciate all the well meaning advice and the help with what to do etc.
> 
> I'll be back at some point to give an up-date, good or bad I'm hoping it will be good.
> 
> Many thanks all.


This is incredible. I don't know who this woman is but she needs to go into Parliament. I wish you all the very best, Andy, even having reasonable certainty that your wife is lying to you. I sincerely hope that we're all wrong, but we're statistically not. Don't be so eager to regain the status quo that you swallow a bunch of crap that your rational mind knows is just that.


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## walkonmars

Andy .... (omit my real thoughts) .... 

good luck


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## sharkeey

Andy01 said:


> So, my wife has now admitted that she was in an EA, she found it hard to use the waords but did when pushed.


At first she outright lied about everything, eventually, when pushed she told you only what she thinks you needed to know, nothing more, and much less than the truth.



Andy01 said:


> She also admits to kissing but nothing more.


That's typical. Cheaters lie. They tell you only what they think you need to know based on what they think you already know. If nothing else, she's predictable.



Andy01 said:


> I forgve her but I won't forget.


You let her off way too easily. This makes it extremely likely she's going to do it again. And you'll never get the truth unless you happen to stumble into the bedroom while they're both in there. Even then I suspect she'll be able to talk her way out of it somehow and you'll once again forgive but not forget.



Andy01 said:


> I'll continue monitoring and she knows this.


Right. She'll be much more careful to cover her tracks. 



Andy01 said:


> At this time I believe what she says, I feel it in my gut.


What you feel in your gut is fear and relief. Or, more accurately, right now you feel "relief of the fear". Fear of losing her and the life you know, and a false sense of security because you think you fixed the problem and have secure measures in place to prevent it from ever happening again.

You couldn't be more wrong. If anything you're in worse shape now because she knows she can get away with it and she knows you're watching so she'll be more careful not to get caught, and she got experience on her side now. 



Andy01 said:


> We had a long discussion about everything and I asked about everything.


And you expected her to come clean and you believed everything she told you. Regardless of whether it makes any sense to do that. 



Andy01 said:


> Obviously, I'll still wonder but until now, all her explanations left me feeling that there was more. I don't feel that now.


Right. You believe her implicitly, you are certain you have the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Because she told you so and you want that to be the truth. 



Andy01 said:


> I'll stop coming here for a while because it makes it difficult to truly work at my marriage but I do appreciate all the well meaning advice and the help with what to do etc..


Translated for accuracy: "I can't handle the truth, I'm just going to read books, believe everything my cheating wife tells me and I'll avoid any advice that I just don't want to hear, even though my marriage is a train wreck and headed for certain disaster due to my inability to stand up and face the problems head on".


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## barbados

Andy. When she says "We just kissed", it means she had sex with him ! I know, I had this done to me, and that is exactly what she said to me back when it happened. WE JUST KISSED = SHE IS LYING !!


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## old timer

Methinks Andy has sea-gulled.


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## Jasel

Wish you the best of luck and hope everything works out. But I have a feeling you're in for a big dissapointment. Hope I'm wrong.


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## 3putt

Jasel said:


> Wish you the best of luck and hope everything works out. But I have a feeling you're in for a big dissapointment. *Hope I'm wrong.*


Unfortunately, you're not. It's just a matter of time.

All the best Andy. We'll be here when you have the need for friends.


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## Machiavelli

carmen ohio said:


> Andy,
> 
> I also wish you well.
> 
> I must say, however, that, to me, your statement that reading TAM is making it more difficult to work on your marriage reflects a reluctance on your part to take the steps you need to take to have a successful reconciliation. These includes insisting that your WW tell you everything. IMHO, she has not done that.
> 
> But perhaps I'm wrong and maybe your gut is correct.
> 
> I hope so for your sake.


There is always a first time, maybe this is it.


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## Wiserforit

The wisdom of the collective TAM experience has proven supreme in the face of relentless denial.


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## 3putt

Wiserforit said:


> The wisdom of the collective TAM experience has proven supreme in the face of relentless denial.


Too true. Sucks to high heaven, but undeniable. I really feel bad for this guy. He wants _sooo_ bad to believe we are all wrong and that his wife wouldn't do this to him. I guess at some point in time we were all Andy....until we got sledgehammered in the family jewels by undeniable facts.

I pray to God that Mach is right though.... but he's not.


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## Thound

Andy, i hope things work out for you. I hope this was an EA. At some point y'all are going to have rebuilt trust. If you don't have trust you have nothing. It's going to take along time to get over this, I don't know how I would have handled this situation best wishes.


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## Rags

I know he's probably worng, and past evidence suggests that's going to blow up again, because ot's not been resolved, and yes, he's in denial, and she's lying for England, etc ...


But, I suppose at some point, there might have been a situation where someone was having an affair and it did just stop at kissing ... and they admitted it ... and that's all there was too it.

I mean, someone winds the lottery, against the odds, each time.

It could happen.

I guess.

Maybe.


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## old timer

We're not gonna hear from Andy for a few weeks or months, IMO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Disenchanted

This thread makes me sad.

I liked the world better when I saw it through the glasses that Andy is wearing.

Nothing like a good "sledgehammering to the family jewels" as 3putt says, to shatter that illusion.

Andy, when my wife told me about her affair, I immediately told her that I forgave her. It was like an automatic knee jerk reaction. 

I was wrong.

Good luck.


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## sinnister

Good Luck Andy! Take care of yourself.


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## bellawhite

God bless u Andy!! Stay strong! I'm sure everything will work out u seem like a great hubby!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustGrinding

A woman who admits to an emotional affair has been involved in a physical affair. A woman who admits to kissing her affair partner has been engaged in adulterous sex with said partner.

That's just the facts as borne out through recorded history, Andy. If you can live with the doubts, fears, and share your bed with a liar and gaslighter, I applaud you. I couldn't do it.

You don't have the truth, Andy. It's up to you whether or not you can live with that.


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## naga75

Disenchanted said:


> This thread makes me sad.
> 
> I liked the world better when I saw it through the glasses that Andy is wearing.
> 
> Nothing like a good "sledgehammering to the family jewels" as 3putt says, to shatter that illusion.
> 
> Andy, when my wife told me about her affair, I immediately told her that I forgave her. It was like an automatic knee jerk reaction.
> 
> I was wrong.
> 
> Good luck.


My wife didnt tell me, one of my family members did. 
I was relieved it wasnt "as bad" as i was told. Turns out, it was much worse. It took me four months to get the whole story. And im pretty sure i dont know everything. But to be honest anything i dont know...im not sure i WANT to know. Because i know plenty. Oh yes. 
My wifes progression:
-hes just a friend
-we kissed
-we had sex once
-we had sex seven times
-we had sex constantly
-we were always in his car
-we were at his house once
-we were at his house several times
-we got motel rooms a couple times
-we got motel rooms every couple months
-it was just sex
-i didnt love him
-i was totally in love with him
This was the progression i faced over four or five months, with what started out as "he's just my friend".
And keep this in mind, Andy, because it is totally relevant to your situation:
Each relevation came from me digging, and proving, and confronting. 
My wife didnt offer ANY of this to me until i could prove it. 
Just sayin. Id dig more, man. Unless you simply want to bury your head in the sand and keep pretending your wife is honest. Theres more. Theres ALWAYS MORE.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Soifon

bellawhite said:


> God bless u Andy!! Stay strong! I'm sure everything will work out u seem like a great hubby!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LMAO...yeah ok, he sure does sound like a great hubby for a cheating wife. He will ignore her cheating and go on with his life. She gets everything she wants and he gets to live in denial. As long as he never owns up to the truth staring him in the face I'm sure it will all work out just fine.


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## Disenchanted

Soifon said:


> She gets everything she wants


No, she doesn't. She'll be divorcing him within a year or two for being so weak, if nothing else happens first.

Says she wants to work things out, but her physical repulsion to him will progress unabated regardless of what effort she puts in.

No woman really want a **** husband.


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## sharkeey

Disenchanted said:


> No, she doesn't. She'll be divorcing him within a year or two for being so weak, if nothing else happens first.
> 
> Says she wants to work things out, but her physical repulsion to him will progress unabated regardless of what effort she puts in.
> 
> No woman really want a **** husband.


True.

He can bury his head in the sand for only so long, ultimately he'll get dumped for all those reasons stated above.

Women are attracted to strong, independent, protective guys.

Ironically, she's actually expecting him to have a problem with her affair, not blindly accepting it and everything she tells him no matter how farfetched it may be. 

I bet lots of these post infidelity relationship failures could have been saved only if the person who was cheated on didn't tolerate it and walked away, and only considered taking the cheater back after sufficient remorse and actions have been taken by the deceptive spouse to try to make things right.


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## weightlifter

Lol. I think I know someone who knows people that could crack that phone text file with ease.

Too bad because I think the definitive answer lies there.

Welp I hope he's right and I'm wrong... Last time I said that with my gut screaming this loud... (We usually seem to get thru the trickle phase quicker here). I vividly remember a day a few months after the Iraq war started and my dad said it would be all over and we would be out in a year with few casualties. I disagreed but told my father the same thing.


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## naga75

All it takes to read the deleted texts is the backup file, the right file inside the backup file, and notepad. 
You do a search for certain words and bingo bango there you have it. 
Its actually very simple, but tedious sifting thru them. Unless there are hundreds (as in my case). That makes it easy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sandc

Andy,
If you really don't want to deal with this I suggest checking to the hotwife lifestyle.


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## theroad

Andy has been played.

Andy has been here long enough to know what trickle truth is and how WW's use trickle truth.

Your WW denied, stall, denied, stall, denied, stall, then threw you a bone of truth knowing that you would be so greatfull for that little pice of info that you will believe her when WW said you now know it all.

Andy, do you want to buy a bridge in Brooklyn.


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## dogman

Everyone should just cool it. If Andy read the first few posts after his departure he is aware of how we all feel. 

We can be patient. Let this run it's course and we can hope that he will come back here and we can support him through the tough times that are coming.


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## old timer

dogman said:


> Everyone should just cool it. If Andy read the first few posts after his departure he is aware of how we all feel.
> 
> We can be patient. Let this run it's course and we can hope that he will come back here and we can support him through the tough times that are coming.


My sentiments exactly


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## curlysue321

All that would make me suspicious. I would go to counseling.


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## DevastatedToo

Hey Andy,

My wife did a similar thing. Hiding the texts, getting defensive, making the phone silent when getting txts, deleting txts. When I confronted her, it was 
- just friends
- we liked each other
- emotional affair
- oral sex once

Tomorrow I get a polygraph. I don't think there will be more, because for the first time since the truth began trickling, she has gone out of her way to comfort me, no matter how often I am in a bad mood, and offering up all information.

Your wife, I believe, did more than kiss. Like a few other people said, there's always more. Truth of the matter is that when a wife cheats, she makes sure to get dirty. I don't know why they can't stop at just kissing, but I guess it's not junior high anymore. So if there was kissing, it's almost a guarantee that more happened.

Anyways, I'd get the polygraph if I were you. Seriously, if she really wants to prove to you there is nothing more, and she wants the marriage to work, spending a couple hours doing a polygraph will only help her case that her story is true. However, if she refuses, you can bet that she just doesn't want you to know all the real details, whether she had sex, they had sex multiple times, they began getting naked but stopped there, or whatever the case.


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## sharkeey

DevastatedToo said:


> Tomorrow I get a polygraph. I don't think there will be more..
> 
> Anyways, I'd get the polygraph if I were you. Seriously, if she really wants to prove to you there is nothing more, and she wants the marriage to work, spending a couple hours doing a polygraph will only help her case that her story is true.


Polygraphs are over rated. They're not accurate, prone to examiner interpretation and error, affected by all sorts of non related factors, and not permissable in court as evidence for those reasons and more. 



DevastatedToo said:


> However, if she refuses, you can bet that she just doesn't want you to know all the real details


THIS is what a polygraph is for. As a threat, as a way to get the real answers by using it as a manipulative tool. But it's really just a bluff, even if it can be a useful one if used properly. Just don't give it more credibility than it really has.


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## Wiserforit

sandc said:


> Andy,
> If you really don't want to deal with this I suggest checking to the hotwife lifestyle.


I had never heard of that, so I looked into it:


The Hotwife Phenomenon

How interesting! It isn't "swinging" or an "open marriage", but rather allowing the wife to have affairs and being open about it instead of all this sneaking around and back-stabbing dishonesty.

It is not far from the more familiar idea of a husband having both a wife and a discreet but non-secret mistress. My wife explicitly allows that but it seems like too much work to me. Supreme laziness prevails. One woman is plenty enough for me. 

A distinction that arises in the approach is the cuckhold spouse having three options. One is to look the other way so much that you pretend it isn't happening. It is a kind of denial where there are no direct lies and back-stabbing behavior. "Ask me no more questions and I'll tell you no more lies."

The second way is where the cuckhold spouse more explicitly recognizes it is happening, maybe even knowing the affair partner, and tolerating it, but not like this "hot wife" idea where the husband actually gets off knowing his wife is getting boned by someone else. Maybe even watching. 

So if your wife is gone and you need to know where the pot-holders are kept in the kitchen, option 1 approach would be to wait until she gets home. Option 2 is to call her on her cell phone, and she answers freely from his house but is discreet about the conversation. Option 3 is to call his land line and ask that they put the speaker phone on, so you can listen in as you get those pot-holders ready for the dinner you are making her. 

I seriously have no problem with any of these approaches for other people. What do I know. Because to me the main issue with affairs is all of the lying, betrayal of promise on fidelity, etc. - and if you make a marriage arrangement where this sort of thing is permitted then that removes all the negatives. 

Easier in theory than in practice probably, but better than illicit affairs anyway.


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## turnera

The problem with most women who cheat is that they almost always are looking for the EMOTIONAL connection, not the sex. So going out and hitting up other men is basically just shopping for the next husband.


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## old timer

Yeah, the emo connection, that was the ticket for me. 

The sex had absolutely NOTHING to do w/ it. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoosier

That was on the list of crazy things WS say "It wasnt about the sex". I heard it. But actually think in my case it was correct. As my xw did not enjoy sex, the POSOM 13 15 years older and he told me himself (he had been my friend) that for him A good bowel movement was better than sex. dont really think he is up to much.....


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## Machiavelli

Hoosier said:


> That was on the list of crazy things WS say "It wasnt about the sex". I heard it. But actually think in my case it was correct. As my xw did not enjoy sex, the POSOM 13 15 years older and he told me himself (he had been my friend) that *for him A good bowel movement was better than sex.* dont really think he is up to much.....


I'd have to chalk that one up to soothing misdirection.


----------

