# When is it ok to lie?



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

For those here who think it's ok to lie to a spouse or potential spouse about your past sex life, or deceive them,I am genuinely interested to know if this also applies to other things.
For example if you have ever been in trouble with the police and charged/ jailed would you tell them? Is it ok to deceive on that?
If you have maybe been divorced 3 times would it be ok not to tell them how many? Is that ok?
If you have been charged for drink driving would you hide that?
Caught shop lifting in your past? Expelled from school or college? Caught taking illegal drugs? Drinking too much?

Where do you draw the line?

For those who say they don't care about a person's past, how far does that go as far as things like those I mentioned above?

If you married a person and later found out for example that they had a criminal record and had been in jail one or more times would you be ok that they didn't tell you? Would you think you were deceived?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> If you married a person and later found out for example that they had a criminal record and had been in jail one or more times would you be ok that they didn't tell you? Would you think you were deceived?


Not OK at all and of course I would think I was lied too. It would be grounds for a D.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> For those here who think it's ok to lie to a spouse or potential spouse about your past sex life, or friends be them, I am genuinely interested to know if this also applies to other things.
> For example if you have ever been in trouble with the police and charged/ jailed would you tell them? Is it ok to deceive on that?
> If you have maybe been divorced 3 times would you hide all or some of them? Is that ok?
> If you have been charged for drink driving would you hide that?
> ...


Well, I wouldn't even date someone very long before I'd have checked for criminal records. 

Everyone has some personal things they keep private. That's a bit different than a public criminal record. Past marriages can be found through a background check as well. My main consideration would be to make sure they weren't married NOW, of course. 

I really couldn't be with someone who wasn't going to be satisfied unless they knew every detail of my personal past or who was so insecure that they had to prod me to make them feel like they were the "best" I ever had. I just find that very weak and unattractive and pathetic. There are some guys who like to pump themselves up that way, but I certainly never went out with them again once I got a whiff. And I only had a couple of guys who seemed like they might be that way, and very briefly. Fortunately, a lot of those type guys will try to start bragging before you ever even sleep with them because they think that is all-important. 

I have given guys a brief synopsis of, for example, how many important relationships I considered that I had. I mostly dated guys who were not judgy and as double-standard about the past sex life, thank goodness. I would never date someone like that once I knew. They wouldn't like me and I wouldn't like them. 

Me and one of my favorite guys used to both be very candid and tell each other funny stories because neither of us cared. For example, I remember a conversation when we both agreed we wished we were bisexual, but we weren't. 

You notice those judgy ones on here the most, but at least in my dating days long ago, those were quite rare unless you just surrounded yourself within a religious community or something like that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, I wouldn't even date someone very long before I'd have checked for criminal records.
> 
> Everyone has some personal things they keep private. That's a bit different than a public criminal record. Past marriages can be found through a background check as well. My main consideration would be to make sure they weren't married NOW, of course.
> 
> ...


I guess I just don't see why anyone would want to hide or keep things from the closest person in their lives.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

When is it ok to lie? 

When the family of Jews/undocumented immigrant/victimless criminal is behind my false wall.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

i tell the truth to my wife , she told me that she was raped and she told me , i let her tell me as much as she wanted to about her other relationships and did not push her for more than she was happy with me knowing , 

THE POLICE I would tell them nothing i think I would use THE 5TH 
my accountant i tell only what I have to 
some things I we never tell anyone only us know


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## Pip’sJourney (Mar 17, 2021)

I could not be with someone that lies to me. The closest person to me should be able to talk about anything without regret or remorse. Lies are evil.. destructive..and create webs of other lies. I do not think that details on past lovers are helpful but the fact that there were past lovers should be revealed. Also on those other threads, what exactly constitutes a past lover..PIV or just BJ or heavy petting? those things may be different to each person as to what they want to know.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Many people have things in their past that they don’t necessarily think about all the time, so it doesn’t follow that not mentioning something that one doesn’t _think_ to mention can or should be called a lie.

But when asked a question, anything offered in any sort of effort to mislead from the truth — whether a simple redirection or an outright lie — can, and should, be considered a lie (and wrong) — especially if the aim is to secure something of value (whether objective or otherwise) in bad faith.

A perfectly valid alternative would be to refuse to engage in the conversation, which may result in not obtaining that thing of value (a job, a relationship, a marriage, etc), but that’s kind of how informed consent works sooo… 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

I try not to lie, but there are a LOT of things i simply won't tell my wife. There are a lot of things that she will never know about. A lot of things that have changed me more than i care to admit. 

Sometimes, lying is state-mandated.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> I try not to lie, but there are a LOT of things i simply won't tell my wife. There are a lot of things that she will never know about. A lot of things that have changed me more than i care to admit.
> 
> Sometimes, lying is state-mandated.


Why do you think you cant tell her?


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## Smilieman (Jun 8, 2021)

Why would you even consider lying? Do you think that it would make the relationship better, make yourself look better by trying to manipulate another person's view of you or just wanting to feel better about yourself?

The question here is, are you prepared to lie for the entire relationship and build it up on that lie? Not telling somebody something when it should be disclosed, isn't lying, it's deceit IMO.

I wouldn't want to be branded a liar or be prepared to go out and purposely shatter somebody else's life, just because I thought it just fine to lie about stuff. I wouldn't be able to live with myself. One lie will lead to another, then another and the bigger each lie will become. Beware!


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## Smilieman (Jun 8, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> I guess I just don't see why anyone would want to hide or keep things from the closest person in their lives.


Tell that to my wife! She's done just that for years it would seem.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

IMO there is difference between giving false information and withholding something (lying by omission). Former not cool, latter IDK.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I think people want the truth when it suits them, and the rest of the time, we spend an awful lot of energy avoiding it.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

I agree with the above that just because you don't think of something, doesn't mean you lied. If asked, then you should tell the truth. I'd add that if you learn or suspect they wouldn't be okay with something, even if not directly asked about it, you should open up or it may be seen as deceitful later on.

Some stuff is so far in the past, small, or unimportant that it's just not thought of. I have a friend who has been married twice, but his first marriage was 3 months, straight out of high school, and he never thinks about it and doesn't consider it as a marriage really. I didn't graduate high school, and was expelled, but I have 3 degrees so very few people know that. It never comes up so I wouldn't see that as a lie unless directly asked. I got myself arrested and spent the night in jail more than once, again it never comes up because it was so long ago and nothing came of it.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

it is a simple question just some times it is best not to tell all if you know they first don't need to know


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Why do you think you cant tell her?


Uh... That's classified.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Literally. I don't talk about classified stuff. That's what I can't tell her.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

As'laDain said:


> Uh... That's classified.


 best wait until the bodys are found


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm not even joking. Half my career is classified.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CharlieParker said:


> IMO there is difference between giving false information and withholding something (lying by omission). Former not cool, latter IDK.


So if you found out after marriage that your spouse had been in jail a few times for say drug dealing how would you feel? Would you think they should have told you?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

You would think TS stuff would be more interesting. Sometimes it is, but most of it is mundane bull ****.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> I'm not even joking. Half my career is classified.


OK well that isnt really about you personally then.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> OK well that isnt really about you personally then.


It might be. He could be an assassin. 😳


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

CharlieParker said:


> IMO there is difference between giving false information and withholding something (lying by omission). Former not cool, latter IDK.


The result of both is deceit that may lead to a second or third party making a decision that he or she may not have otherwise made.

So… unethical at the least, if not immoral.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> OK well that isnt really about you personally then.


Eh, yes and no. 

It's a job requirement. My wife gets it. She held a clearance once too.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

minimalME said:


> It might be. He could be an assassin. 😳


Lol, i am NOT an assas....

Holy ****...

🤯


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Lol, for the record, i am NOT an assassin.

Just to be clear.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

frenchpaddy said:


> it is a simple question just some times it is best not to tell all if you know they first don't need to know


Can you provide an example?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

frenchpaddy said:


> best wait until the bodys are found


Body? What body?

True story, i actually did pull a nasty prank once in Iraq. I put a human body part under my squad leaders bed. 

I... Really hated myself for doing that, for a long time. It took me years to talk about it. 

I really wish i could explain what war is like. Truth is, you really can't understand unless you have experienced it.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> Lol, for the record, i am NOT an assassin.
> 
> Just to be clear.


That’s just what an assassin would say. 🤔


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

I won't judge people for lying about stuff like the above story.

It's something i am still deeply ashamed of. Personally, i don't want to lie. But there are definitely things that i am uncomfortable with talking about.

I have to keep reminding myself that i didn't think i would survive. That i was set up for failure. That my first day leading soldiers was my first day in a combat zone. That i was scared ****less, and i had no idea that i would be doing that at the time. That my best friend had just been killed by an EFP.

So, yeah. I can understand why someone would lie about the things in their past.

**** happens.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> For those who say they don't care about a person's past, how far does that go as far as things like those I mentioned above?
> 
> If you married a person and later found out for example that they had a criminal record and had been in jail one or more times would you be ok that they didn't tell you? Would you think you were deceived?


A casual partner I don't care. Not my business. A serious relationship? I want to know everything, but I am also willing to disclose everything on my end. I think, if we're talking about love and merging lives, both people need to know exactly who the other person is and who they have been in the past. Their evolution, so to speak. I need my spouse to be my say anything person and I need to be theirs. Otherwise, I just can't trust in the way I need to trust to be married. Too many divorces and/or affairs because people just didn't say it...whatever "it" is....before it became a monster that ate the marriage.

I'd be furious if my DH had, say, been married or went to jail and failed to disclose that. Criminal records often prevent people from being able to take certain jobs or rent properties and, at least where I live, criminal records can raise insurance rates depending on the charge. This effects the common life of spouses. So can previous marriages, depending on how everything shook out financially. I know guys still carrying and paying on debt from short marriages to first wives they divorced long ago. 




DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, I wouldn't even date someone very long before I'd have checked for criminal records.
> 
> Everyone has some personal things they keep private. That's a bit different than a public criminal record. Past marriages can be found through a background check as well. My main consideration would be to make sure they weren't married NOW, of course.


For a casual I wouldn't even bother to do a criminal or marriage records search. For something more serious I wouldn't bother with the man if I thought I'd have to do a criminal or marriage records search because he wasn't being honest or forthcoming. I was married to a lying, cheating, stealing, mooch. I already did my time at the Spouse NSA. If I don't feel I can trust the man in question I am not going to search for proof I'm right. I'll just go with my gut and move on. NEXT!




DownByTheRiver said:


> I really couldn't be with someone who wasn't going to be satisfied unless they knew every detail of my personal past or who was so insecure that they had to prod me to make them feel like they were the "best" I ever had.


Which is again a big difference between us. I couldn't be with someone who wasn't so into me they _didn't_ want to know every detail. Nor would I want to be with someone who I wasn't so into I didn't want every detail. For me, if we aren't each others best sex then enjoy it while it lasts and move on.



As'laDain said:


> I'm not even joking. Half my career is classified.


That would drive me insane. I'd get it, but it would drive me insane. I am so glad DH can talk details about his job all day if he wants.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

MJJEAN said:


> A casual partner I don't care. Not my business. A serious relationship? I want to know everything, but I am also willing to disclose everything on my end. I think, if we're talking about love and merging lives, both people need to know exactly who the other person is and who they have been in the past. Their evolution, so to speak. I need my spouse to be my say anything person and I need to be theirs. Otherwise, I just can't trust in the way I need to trust to be married. Too many divorces and/or affairs because people just didn't say it...whatever "it" is....before it became a monster that ate the marriage.
> 
> I'd be furious if my DH had, say, been married or went to jail and failed to disclose that. Criminal records often prevent people from being able to take certain jobs or rent properties and, at least where I live, criminal records can raise insurance rates depending on the charge. This effects the common life of spouses. So can previous marriages, depending on how everything shook out financially. I know guys still carrying and paying on debt from short marriages to first wives they divorced long ago.
> 
> ...


It drives me insane too. 

About all i can say at the end of the day is "today was good". Or,
"Today was ****ing rough"

I WANT to talk about it. But it's literally illegal.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> For those here who think it's ok to lie to a spouse or potential spouse about your past sex life, or deceive them,I am genuinely interested to know if this also applies to other things.
> For example if you have ever been in trouble with the police and charged/ jailed would you tell them? Is it ok to deceive on that?
> If you have maybe been divorced 3 times would it be ok not to tell them how many? Is that ok?
> If you have been charged for drink driving would you hide that?
> ...


@Diana7 so you think not wanting or willing to share one's past sexual history to be lying? Because I don't recall reading anyone on TAM say that lying was a good thing. What I do recall people stating is that they didn't feel the need to share their sexual history. Those are two totally different things. One is purposefully misleading (not okay) and the other is choosing not to participate (okay).


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

GusPolinski said:


> Can you provide an example?


I will try , just think if a woman had been in say 3 relationships and between 2 of them she went through a time that she had a lot of one night stands , then she got back on the straight and narrow and met a guy that was straight lased and when he asked about her past in the early days of their relationship and she was at that time not knowing if the relationship was going to last long so she holds back the info by changing the subject and a little good hummer , but they end up getting married and have kids before he brings up the subject again I think years have gone by and the past life is no more , i think she is better off telling him as little as she can , own up to the 2 other relationships and maybe 1 or to other short relationships


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Lila said:


> @Diana7 so you think not wanting or willing to share one's past sexual history to be lying? Because I don't recall reading anyone on TAM say that lying was a good thing. What I do recall people stating is that they didn't feel the need to share their sexual history. Those are two totally different things. One is purposefully misleading (not okay) and the other is choosing not to participate (okay).


Not just talking about sexual pasts but do you in general consider some kinds of omission a form of lying?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> Eh, yes and no.
> 
> It's a job requirement. My wife gets it. She held a clearance once too.


Yes that's understandable.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

the experts say you should tell but at the same time you have the right to keep for yourself the details , 
I just done a simple goggle , Should You Tell Your Partner About Your Past Mistakes?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

frenchpaddy said:


> I will try , just think if a woman had been in say 3 relationships and between 2 of them she went through a time that she had a lot of one night stands , then she got back on the straight and narrow and met a guy that was straight lased and when he asked about her past in the early days of their relationship and she was at that time not knowing if the relationship was going to last long so she holds back the info by changing the subject and a little good hummer , but they end up getting married and have kids before he brings up the subject again I think years have gone by and the past life is no more , i think she is better off telling him as little as she can , own up to the 2 other relationships and maybe 1 or to other short relationships


Nope.

She has _knowingly_ deprived him of an opportunity to make an informed decision for himself using his own dealbreakers as criteria with respect to whether or not he wanted to continue in a relationship with her.

Doesn’t matter if she doesn’t agree with his decision-making process. Doesn’t matter if she doesn’t agree that the input that he might have used to arrive at his decision should have been used as input at all. It was his decision — and his decision alone — to make, and she intentionally concealed what he considered valid input from him in order to make it all the more likely that he made a decision that aligned with that _she_ wanted.

She’s wronged him, and if I had to guess, there will be a price to pay for it later on in their relationship.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

frenchpaddy said:


> the experts say you should tell but at the same time you have the right to keep for yourself the details ,
> I just done a simple goggle , Should You Tell Your Partner About Your Past Mistakes?


Ahh… Medium.

That delightful fount of millennial morality.

😆😂🤣🤢🤮


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Lila said:


> @Diana7 so you think not wanting or willing to share one's past sexual history to be lying? Because I don't recall reading anyone on TAM say that lying was a good thing. What I do recall people stating is that they didn't feel the need to share their sexual history. Those are two totally different things. One is purposefully misleading (not okay) and the other is choosing not to participate (okay).


If you talk about it and one wants to know about the person they may marry's past sexual history the other person can say no I am not going to tell you or they can lie or be deceptive about it . 
If they lie or are deceptive then the other person can't make an informed decision as to whether they want to marry them.
If they say no, I am not telling you then again that person can decide whether to marry them. If they are evasive, fob them off, don't answer the question, or just lie, there can be no informed decision.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

I don't really care about stuff people did when they were young. I think the majority did stuff as adults wouldn't do. 

I don't care about sexual past unless there's history of STDs. 

I don't care about illegal stuff unless the person hasn't changed. 

I don't care about previous relationships, it takes two to tango. 

I'm pretty chill. I know the tip of the iceberg about my husband's past. People tell me he was a different person back then. I'm glad I didn't care about what he disclosed or avoided telling me about his past. 

I really can't be with someone who feels insecure about a person's past. I like my privacy, I respect other people's privacy.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Numb26 said:


> Not just talking about sexual pasts but do you in general consider some kinds of omission a form of lying?


Trust me, if it's important to me, I ask. I don't do it in a judgy way but I do straight up ask or say "let's not waste our time if any of the above (x,y,z) pertain to you". Usually they will self select out, either because something I said pertains to them or they don't like the fact that I'm asking. No big deal either way. A non-answer is enough for me to decide whether to proceed.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> If you talk about it and one wants to know about the person they may marry's past sexual history the other person can say no I am not going to tell you or they can lie or be deceptive about it .
> If they lie or are deceptive then the other person can't make an informed decision as to whether they want to marry them.
> If they say no, I am not telling you then again that person can decide whether to marry them. If they are evasive, fob them off, don't answer the question, or just lie, there can be no informed decision.


I sure hope they are not waiting until they have reached the stage of thinking about marriage to ask questions they deem critical to their happiness.

A lie is unacceptable but you keep putting it in the same category as a non answer. Of course there can be an informed decision from a non answer. It means they have no interest in answering the question (for whatever reason). They put the ball back on the askers court. It's up to the asker to decide if they can live without knowing the answer.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

I have known people who have done illegal and unsafe stuff because they were in an abusive relationship and we're being forced.


If you judge someone based solely on a single aspect of their past, you are probably missing most of the picture.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> If they lie or are deceptive then the other person can't make an informed decision as to whether they want to marry them.


We've had these types of discussions on here before.

How much truth is enough? Once that door has been opened, how many questions have to be answered in ordered to qualify as 'honest'? How much information does one really_ need_?

To me, it's just morbid curiosity that ends up with a lot of unintended concequences. 

Does someone really need to know how much bigger and better another person was? Do they need to know all the details about positions and how often? 

Is there going to be a starting and stopping point to the digging? Are you going to ask a question today, and then 10 years from now want more details just because?


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> It drives me insane too.
> 
> About all i can say at the end of the day is "today was good". Or,
> "Today was ****ing rough"
> ...


Is there any possibility of some kind of secured journal where you could write down the gist of it...no truly sensitive info, no names, only nicknames/code words...and share that with her later when you are no longer bound by your job to remain silent? Very carefully secure with very carefully crafted words so that you are the only one who understands exactly what they're reading. By the time you retire I imagine a lot of what you know or have experienced will no longer be relevant and perhaps may be unclassified. That way you get it out of your head and your wife will be able to say stuff like "Oooh, now that time period when you XYZ makes sense!"

It also might help you cope with things until such time as you're not required to keep it all in.



Lila said:


> What I do recall people stating is that they didn't feel the need to share their sexual history. Those are two totally different things. One is purposefully misleading (not okay) and the other is choosing not to participate (okay).


Yes, there is a big difference between some variation "I am not answering that question. It's private." and a lie.



frenchpaddy said:


> I will try , just think if a woman had been in say 3 relationships and between 2 of them she went through a time that she had a lot of one night stands , then she got back on the straight and narrow and met a guy that was straight lased and when he asked about her past in the early days of their relationship and she was at that time not knowing if the relationship was going to last long so she holds back the info by changing the subject and a little good hummer , but they end up getting married and have kids before he brings up the subject again I think years have gone by and the past life is no more , i think she is better off telling him as little as she can , own up to the 2 other relationships and maybe 1 or to other short relationships


In your scenario, early on, she joked around and changed the subject. She, basically, sidestepped it. Later on in the relationship, if asked, and she answers without disclosing some of her history, she is lying by omission, at best. Either go with "It's personal, in the past, and irrelevant.' or tell the whole truth.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> Trust me, if it's important to me, I ask. I don't do it in a judgy way but I do straight up ask or say "let's not waste our time if any of the above (x,y,z) pertain to you". Usually they will self select out, either because something I said pertains to them or they don't like the fact that I'm asking. No big deal either way. A non-answer is enough for me to decide whether to proceed.


I understand my situation is not typical, but there were some things that I had no idea were actually important to me until I otherwise found out. I think it was my wife's openness that allowed us to move forward with our relationship. And as effed up as some of her past is, the closest we came to breaking up was when I found out through a throwaway comment by one of her friends something that she had chosen to keep to herself. It was one of those things that never occurred to me to ask about, which is why I guess that it was not something I though was important at the time, but ended up being very important.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

MJJEAN said:


> Is there any possibility of some kind of secured journal where you could write down the gist of it...no truly sensitive info, no names, only nicknames/code words...and share that with her later when you are no longer bound by your job to remain silent? Very carefully secure with very carefully crafted words so that you are the only one who understands exactly what they're reading. By the time you retire I imagine a lot of what you know or have experienced will no longer be relevant and perhaps may be unclassified. That way you get it out of your head and your wife will be able to say stuff like "Oooh, now that time period when you XYZ makes sense!"
> 
> It also might help you cope with things until such time as you're not required to keep it all in.
> 
> ...


My last unit had a chaplain that had a TS clearance, so i could talk to him. My current unit has a couple of behavioral health specialists that have TS clearances, so i can talk to them. 

Realistically, i will never be able to talk about this stuff with my wife. Just as she will never be able to tell me the classified information pertaining to nuclear reactors in the navy. 

Things don't become automatically declassified until 25 years. And depending on what it is, that date might be pushed back to 50 years. 

Some stuff just keeps getting renewed and i will be dead before it gets declassified. 

I have thought about wording things so as to not divulge stuff(who wouldnt think about that), but still be able to talk about it, but those are dangerous waters. Just not worth it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

They don't just need a clearance. They also have to have a need to know. My wife does not have a need to know. The chaplain and behavioral health specialists need to know what's bothering me, so they qualify.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> I have known people who have done illegal and unsafe stuff because they were in an abusive relationship and we're being forced.
> 
> 
> If you judge someone based solely on a single aspect of their past, you are probably missing most of the picture.


I 100% agree with this.

And it’s entirely possible that someone inclined to just immediately write someone off for what many would consider to be… well, just mistakes might wind up missing out on a wonderful partner.

Still, everyone is entitled to their dealbreakers, and lying — or, rather, intentionally concealing the truth — to get around them is wrong.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> I understand my situation is not typical, but there were some things that I had no idea were actually important to me until I otherwise found out. I think it was my wife's openness that allowed us to move forward with our relationship. And as effed up as some of her past is, the closest we came to breaking up was when I found out through a throwaway comment by one of her friends something that she had chosen to keep to herself. It was one of those things that never occurred to me to ask about, which is why I guess that it was not something I though was important at the time, but ended up being very important.


I do understand that nothing in life is guaranteed and there are risks with both being an open book and being private. Pick your poison.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

pastasauce79 said:


> I don't really care about stuff people did when they were young. I think the majority did stuff as adults wouldn't do.
> 
> I don't care about sexual past unless there's history of STDs.
> 
> ...


It's not about insecurity, certainly not for us anyway. It's about being able to be honest and open with your spouse about anything and everything. If I was insecure I maybe wouldn't be so open, but I have never felt the need to be anything but 100% honest with him. 
That's what being married is about, knowing each other warts and all but still loving each other.


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## NTA (Mar 28, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> For those here who think it's ok to lie to a spouse or potential spouse about your past sex life, or deceive them,I am genuinely interested to know if this also applies to other things.
> For example if you have ever been in trouble with the police and charged/ jailed would you tell them? Is it ok to deceive on that?
> If you have maybe been divorced 3 times would it be ok not to tell them how many? Is that ok?
> If you have been charged for drink driving would you hide that?
> ...


I told my husband about the time I was "driving while black." The mid western town I grew up in wasn't diverse enough. Anyone who did not look white was considered black.

I had forgotten to add the date labels to my car's plate. It was about 6 or 7 in the evening and 2 policemen in one car stopped me and told me that they would have take me in. I asked if I could mail this letter as the main post office had a later pick up. So they followed me to the post office and then directed me to the nearest police station.

I didn't have any cash on me and in the 80's and I guess I didn't have a credit card at that time. They didn't put me behind bars but I had to wait until my sister finished her hours volunteering at the Junior League store to give me $25 for the bail. 

I don't recall how it was all reserved. I may have been forgiven. But it seems these days, I would probably a gunshot in the face.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

minimalME said:


> We've had these types of discussions on here before.
> 
> How much truth is enough? Once that door has been opened, how many questions have to be answered in ordered to qualify as 'honest'? How much information does one really_ need_?
> 
> ...


For us it was enough to find out if we were both on the same page sexually. No small details needed.
We both had long first marriages, we didn't discuss all the details of our sex lives with our former spouses.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> I have known people who have done illegal and unsafe stuff because they were in an abusive relationship and we're being forced.
> 
> 
> If you judge someone based solely on a single aspect of their past, you are probably missing most of the picture.


That's why you should be told so that you can think about it and make an informed decision.


----------



## NTA (Mar 28, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> I guess I just don't see why anyone would want to hide or keep things from the closest person in their lives.


This might show a difference in values. If someone believes that something is not that important, then not reporting that something is being truthful in their mind. A guy not letting me know about a love child or any children that he has early in our relationship --2nd date-- would be a dealbreaker for me.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I think demanding to know something that isn't your business and is private is worse than lying by omission on a private matter you wish to keep to yourself.

There are a lot of both men and women who do extra sexual stuff early on in their experience simply to make sure they're doing it right and the equipment is working. They often even intentionally choose someone(s) they don't really want to have a relationship with for that very reason. I've certainly heard virgin acquaintances say, "I just want to get it over with" because they're so nervous about it. They don't want to fumble with whoever their first love ends up being. Both men and women. 

My old circle of friends when I was in my late 20s, early 30s, the guys would talk to each other and me too about their very young experiences, how old they were the first time (like 12!), how old the girl was (13 or so), and even about circle jerks and stuff when really young like that among other guys. There's a lot that goes on sexually people would be embarrassed about (not this crowd though!) as an adult and wouldn't want just anyone to know. Everyone has heard the cliche about women experimenting with women in college, etc. To me, these are all normal things and no one should be embarrassed they did it, though it's certainly private and TMI for most people, not something they need to share with everyone and certainly anyone who they know is sensitive or judgy about it. 

My old sort-of boyfriend I was in love with who had ED but didn't tell me wouldn't try it with me for fear of humiliation, but he would find a younger drunk stranger to try it on. It used to baffle me. People have their reasons. 

Again, instead of worrying about someone's sexual past, I certainly never gave that a thought and tried to vet them to be sure they're not married or cheating on someone and not a criminal or abusive or a fanatic of some type or judgy and moralistic. But really, it doesn't take long to find that out usually. I do remember a new guy one time when I gave him a BJ made some sort of comment that was judging me for doing it. He was certainly a rare bird. A rare bird I can't remember the name of and never set eyes on again. It doesn't take but one comment to spot someone who is holier than thou. They can't button it up.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

NTA said:


> This might show a difference in values. *If someone believes that something is not that important, then not reporting that something is being truthful in their mind.* A guy not letting me know about a love child or any children that he has early in our relationship --2nd date-- would be a dealbreaker for me.


LOL what


----------



## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

GusPolinski said:


> LOL what


 That's called creating your own reality


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think demanding to know something that isn't your business and is private is worse than lying by omission on a private matter you wish to keep to yourself.
> 
> There are a lot of both men and women who do extra sexual stuff early on in their experience simply to make sure they're doing it right and the equipment is working. They often even intentionally choose someone(s) they don't really want to have a relationship with for that very reason. I've certainly heard virgin acquaintances say, "I just want to get it over with" because they're so nervous about it. They don't want to fumble with whoever their first love ends up being. Both men and women.
> 
> ...


It's not about demanding as I see it, but about being open and honest with someone you may marry. I have no reason to hide anything and why would I.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> LOL what


I was homeless for several years before i joined the army. At one point, i was staying in a climate controlled storage unit because it was 40 dollars a month and it was secure. 

I didn't even think to tell my wife until we were married for several years. It just never struck me as something that was important. 

She did know that i was homeless before i joined the army. 

Sometimes, **** just doesn't seem important.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> It's not about demanding as I see it, but about being open and honest with someone you may marry. I have no reason to hide anything and why would I.


Most people do have private things they don't want to share and they're not all about sex.

I mean, you know from being on this board that having even one other lover who has a bigger **** or is better in bed is enough to shrivel and ruin an insecure overly curious male partner. So why would you share that?


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> I was homeless for several years before i joined the army. At one point, i was staying in a climate controlled storage unit because it was 40 dollars a month and it was secure.
> 
> I didn't even think to tell my wife until we were married for several years. It just never struck me as something that was important.
> 
> ...


No, I get that.

I may have misread the reply that I’d quoted.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> Lol, for the record, i am NOT an assassin.
> 
> Just to be clear.


Yeah, all the assassins I know say the same thing.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Sfort said:


> Yeah, all the assassins I know say the same thing.


I was a SOT-A with 3rd SFG for six years. Google it... 

I'll take the label of assassin if it applies to special forces. 

Otherwise, I'm just a soldier.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

We do some things, some people die, eh? 🤷


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> We do some things, some people die, eh? 🤷


You don't have to be in the military to say that. Doctors and lawyers can, as well.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Sfort said:


> You don't have to be in the military to say that. Doctors and lawyers can, as well.


Fair point!


----------



## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> It's not about insecurity, certainly not for us anyway. It's about being able to be honest and open with your spouse about anything and everything. If I was insecure I maybe wouldn't be so open, but I have never felt the need to be anything but 100% honest with him.
> That's what being married is about, knowing each other warts and all but still loving each other.


No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes.

Would you be satisfied with answer like: "I'm not proud of what I did in my past. I am a better person now. I really don't want to talk about it."? I think that's an honest answer. 

I certainly don't need to tell my husband how often I pee or how many men I kissed before meeting him. I need a little privacy, even though I don't care if he needs to use the toilet while I'm in the bathroom. I don't need to know what he did with other girls before me. I don't even know how many girlfriends he had before meeting me, but I'm glad they were part of his life, they shaped the person he is right now.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> It drives me insane too.
> 
> About all i can say at the end of the day is "today was good". Or,
> "Today was ****ing rough"
> ...


Que your best Tom Cruise lingo,
"I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you"


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> Que your best Tom Cruise lingo,
> "I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you"


Actually the reality is as follows.

"If I tell you, I may be potentially risking the lives of others, and I would also put myself at great risk of spending many years in prison."

For a bit over a third of my service career I was a military "Intelligence Professional", during very interesting times.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Personal said:


> Actually the reality is as follows.
> 
> "If I tell you, I may be potentially risking the lives of others, and I would also put myself at great risk of spending many years in prison."
> 
> For a bit over a third of my service career I was a military "Intelligence Professional", during very interesting times.


My dad was a Cryptotech in USMC '64-'67


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

MJJEAN said:


> In your scenario, early on, she joked around and changed the subject. She, basically, sidestepped it. Later on in the relationship, if asked, and she answers without disclosing some of her history, she is lying by omission, at best. Either go with "It's personal, in the past, and irrelevant.' or tell the whole truth.


 the scenario is what started this debate , the woman when asked thought because it was in the past and for her it was irrelevant so she told the truth , 
her husband is shocked and can't take the truth , 
so with 20 /20 6 years of good and happy life 2 kids I think sometimes it is best to keep it to herself , 

I relate it to my life I don't need to know I am now 30 years down the road not looking for advice on how to fix a broken or sexless marriage, 
some people are thinking if she can lie about her irrelevant history she can never be trusted and will lie about other things , 
but the same people would vote for a leader that lies to them every day 

I say if he can't take the truth he should not ask , 
I never asked when I married I know my wife had been hurt and hurt badly 
we dated for 4 years and never had sex until after the wedding then she would get to a point during sex and all would be going well up to a point 
then when her past experience would come back to her , like something out of a Hollywood movie and with the strength of a wild animal 
she would send me flying , 
yes she had been hurt and yes she used to have a open mind around sex until she was raped , 
which brought up a history of abuse from a family friend /relative which the family suspected but never did anything about 
and again years later when raped did not report it or even let it be talked about because of the culture at the time ,
they thought it was best as no self respecting man would want a woman that was not a virgin , 
her family had connections to an English lord and had much the same idea as the royal family a bride must be virgin , 

so for the family good name they thought it was best to hide , 
from experience I know that I would not changed one thing in our history together happy with the perfect wife , 
good sex life with a woman that has got over her history together with out going to help , 
it would have been good to have help at the time , but we lived in different times with different ideas different costumes,

so the man that he himself had sex with other women can't take the truth that his wife had a time in her life when she lived free 
just because she was better at finding others to be free with than him now he holds it against her 
I call him hypercritical and any one that is like him 
judging others and prying into someones past when that past is long gone


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> It's not about demanding as I see it, but about being open and honest with someone you may marry. I have no reason to hide anything and why would I.


the big question is are both been honest 
is he been honest in why how and for what is he asking the question , can he take the truth 
did he want to live like her but could not get a woman to sleep with him except the wife that did and the odd other 
was he one of the type that tried to get a woman to sleep with him and then when she did think oh so if she gave in so easy to me she must be easy 

there is been honest in responding to the question , 
there is been honest in posing the question , 
there is been honest in looking for sex and how you take that when a woman excepts you , 

there is to sides to the truth thing the question maker hast to be honest in why he is asking and not been a jam tart licking up acting as if it is ok 
to get the information and when her got it turned against her , for been the type person he in one way wanted to be and in another way was with her many years before as he was one of her guys 

sorry this guy was far from honest ,


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Personal said:


> Actually the reality is as follows.
> 
> "If I tell you, I may be potentially risking the lives of others, and I would also put myself at great risk of spending many years in prison."
> 
> For a bit over a third of my service career I was a military "Intelligence Professional", during very interesting times.


You know what's funny? I started my career as airborne infantry. My first deployment was as an infantryman. My first day leading soldiers, my first day in a combat zone. 

Infantry. 

I re-classed into cryptologic linguist later because i was sick of infantry culture. And then i ended up on ODA after ODA and STILL had to "prove i could carry my weight". 

My gear usually weighed more than me. A friend of mine that went to SFAS with me lost his right leg above the knee. He is a warrant officer now. He was usually looked at with less suspicion. Because he is ****ing huge.

I only weigh 126 pounds. I usually carried about 130 into combat, as infantry. As a SOT-A, almost 200 pounds. 

Quite a bit more than i weigh.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

When I arrived in Iraq, it was about midnight. I was told that I was going to the promotion board at 0630 the next day. I had no warning. I had never led soldiers before, not even in training. 

I was given the "worst" soldiers in the platoon. The idea was to prove that i was not ready. 

Fair, i had no idea what i was doing. I had one guy who could barely speak English. Another was just super lazy. Another had issues with authority. 

Well, i figured it out. Every single one of my specialists got promoted before we left Iraq. And the PFC... he ****ing kicked ass. 

I was real proud of that team. 

My platoon sergeant apologized to me toward the end of the deployment. I was like "nah, i ****ing love these guys!"

I taught them reflexive firing. Instantaneous reflexive firing. It... Made a difference. 

I was that corporal that everyone hated, but nobody could outshoot me. They hated it at the start, but every one of MY soldiers could shoot a gun out of someone's hands.  

I still had a hell of a lot to learn about leading soldiers. But that's where I started. That's how I started.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

How do I explain any of this to civilians?


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

As'laDain said:


> How do I explain any of this to civilians?


and on a topic about lying, lol


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Most people do have private things they don't want to share and they're not all about sex.
> 
> I mean, you know from being on this board that having even one other lover who has a bigger **** or is better in bed is enough to shrivel and ruin an insecure overly curious male partner. So why would you share that?


I cant agree, I think that a lot of married people are open and honest. That doesnt mean that you have to share every minute detail of their whole life, unless they are asked, but certainly the important things like how they view sex in relationships.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> How do I explain any of this to civilians?


You dont need to, we get it. Some jobs need to be kept secret. Like a counsellor for example, all that is said to them is private but of course that isnt going to affect the counsellors marriage/relationship because its nothing to do with it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> You dont need to, we get it. Some jobs need to be kept secret. Like a counsellor for example, all that is said to them is private but of course that isnt going to affect the counsellors marriage/relationship because its nothing to do with it.


In our case, it's kinda hard. We sometimes experience things that are so powerful that they change our whole outlook on everything. 

But we can't talk about it. We want to talk about it, but we can't. 

There is nothing like saying "everything is fine!" While you are scrubbing someones brains off of your uniform. 

I'm skeptical that anyone gets it's. I still don't.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Guys lie to women, often to protect them.....

No woman would want to be told that they look horrible in a certain outfit, their vagina is like the Grand Canyon, or some other aspect that may crush their spirit and give them anxiety and self doubt...Or if a guy finds one of her friends attractive or she has nice boobs, should he be honest about it and tell his wife? Same for women...No woman would ever tell a man that his tiny pecker is unsatisfying and she can barely feel it...The best thing she can do there is avoid it, and if asked, come up with a lie...

Just like a lot of guys will tell women that everything is fine from a financial standpoint, because he knows she will absolutely freak out, if she knew the truth...

Most people just can't handle the truth....so unless you want a life filled with hysterics and drama, sometimes you just have to decide which items you need to be somewhat dishonest about...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

hamadryad said:


> Guys lie to women, often to protect them.....
> 
> No woman would want to be told that they look horrible in a certain outfit, their vagina is like the Grand Canyon, or some other aspect that may crush their spirit and give them anxiety and self doubt...Or if a guy finds one of her friends attractive or she has nice boobs, should he be honest about it and tell his wife? Same for women...No woman would ever tell a man that his tiny pecker is unsatisfying and she can barely feel it...The best thing she can do there is avoid it, and if asked, come up with a lie...
> 
> ...


I disagree. 

I want to know if what i am doing, or if what I
am, is not enough. 

I'm almost asexual. The main thing i get from sex is seeing my partner happy. 

I do get that a lot of people lie about these kinds of things. 

Have you ever just done your damnedest to get your partner off without worrying about yourself?

If not, try it.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

the funny thing is most people when they brake up put the blame on the other person , like how do we see someone come on and say my second husband is acting strange , 
his first wife cheated on him , 
I often think it would be good if you could give old partners stat ratings or user history like our old car lol


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

frenchpaddy said:


> the funny thing is most people when they brake up put the blame on the other person , like how do we see someone come on and say my second husband is acting strange ,
> his first wife cheated on him ,
> I often think it would be good if you could give old partners stat ratings or user history like our old car lol


If they were honest ratings, that could be good feedback. 

Most people seem like they are afraid of being wrong, so they don't take feedback if it's negative. 

Me? I'm already dead. Doctors have declared me dead twice. I'm living on borrowed time anyway, so why should I be afraid of anything?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Lol, I'm not actually dead. I know this. My behavioral health specialists don't like it when I say that. 

But, that's how I feel. I'm living on borrowed time. I typically don't lie because I'm not worried about the consequences of telling the truth. Im an XX/XY chimera. I am my own twin. I'm polyamorous and bisexual. 

I have been declared dead twice. I have fought in three civil wars. 

I grew up poor and i was homeless for several years before i joined the army. And then i experienced 13 years of continuous combat, with 2 year break so i could learn Arabic in California. 



Why lie? And why judge someone for lying if they aren't trying to manipulate me?

To me, lying because you are ashamed of your past is very different from lying with the intent to deceive someone. 

It's pretty easy to tell which is which. Just get to know them.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

As'laDain said:


> If they were honest ratings, that could be good feedback.
> 
> Most people seem like they are afraid of being wrong, so they don't take feedback if it's negative.
> 
> Me? I'm already dead. Doctors have declared me dead twice. I'm living on borrowed time anyway, so why should I be afraid of anything?


 I have seen on some tv shows when the ex wife tells the new gf what to expect , 
I think often the ex if they told the BF / GF what to expect in real life it could be taken with salt , 
most times on social media the ex has nothing but bad feelings and wish the next gets the same as they did


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

And those white lies, when your wife wants your opinion on an outfit she likes...

I don't do those. I'm too ****ing blunt. But at the same time, i give zero ****s. My wife can wear whatever she wants. If she wants my opinion, I'll give it, but i have never seen her wear anything that i would call "ugly".


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

As'laDain said:


> Lol, I'm not actually dead. I know this. My behavioral health specialists don't like it when I say that.
> 
> But, that's how I feel. I'm living on borrowed time. I typically don't lie because I'm not worried about the consequences of telling the truth. Im an XX/XY chimera. I am my own twin. I'm polyamorous and bisexual.
> 
> ...


you hit on some good points there with 
lying because you are ashamed of your past is very different from lying with the intent to deceive someone. but people lie for many other reasons


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

frenchpaddy said:


> I have seen on some tv shows when the ex wife tells the new gf what to expect ,
> I think often the ex if they told the BF / GF what to expect in real life it could be taken with salt ,
> most times on social media the ex has nothing but bad feelings and wish the next gets the same as they did


I always take it with a grain of salt. Everyone is different. I like to find out for myself. I don't take anyone's word for granted.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> For those here who think it's ok to lie to a spouse or potential spouse about your past sex life, or deceive them,I am genuinely interested to know if this also applies to other things.
> For example if you have ever been in trouble with the police and charged/ jailed would you tell them? Is it ok to deceive on that?
> If you have maybe been divorced 3 times would it be ok not to tell them how many? Is that ok?
> If you have been charged for drink driving would you hide that?
> ...


It is never ok to lie about anything. If you are asked and you don’t give a direct answer then the other person should decide if that is good enough and they will leave it alone or they want the absolute detail of the truth. If he didn’t say “I want the absolute truth” then he accepted the answer he was given.

Not giving an answer and lying are two different things.

She didn’t say her number was 2 when it was really 102.

He accepted not being givin an absolute.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

Mr.Married said:


> It is never ok to lie about anything. If you are asked and you don’t give a direct answer then the other person should decide if that is good enough and they will leave it alone or they want the absolute detail of the truth. If he didn’t say “I want the absolute truth” then he accepted the answer he was given.
> 
> Not giving an answer and lying are two different things.
> 
> ...


 [B]As'laDain[/B]* said people lie because they are ashamed or want to manipulate but all so people lie for your good or protect others *


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Mr.Married said:


> It is never ok to lie about anything. If you are asked and you don’t give a direct answer then the other person should decide if that is good enough and they will leave it alone or they want the absolute detail of the truth. If he didn’t say “I want the absolute truth” then he accepted the answer he was given.
> 
> Not giving an answer and lying are two different things.
> 
> ...


That's another thing..

Not divulging information... A lot of people call it lying through omission. I do that all the time because my job requires it. 

But, it's not malicious at all. 

And for people who might have done crazy stuff when they were younger... If they have changed, i would rather let them change. If they are a different person than they used to be, then i don't even want to know most of the stuff about the old person. 

If someone changes for the better, my policy is to let them be who they are now. I don't like holding people to who they were back when...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

frenchpaddy said:


> [B]As'laDain[/B]* said people lie because they are ashamed or want to manipulate but all so people lie for your good or protect others *


I said what?


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Since my wife and I have been together since HS, fortunately don't have much past to deceive about, just dumb stuff kids do when qrowing up in the country. If I had been caught by authorities doing *some* of those things, could easily have ended up in Juvenile Detention, which might have led to worse later. That was the place where most young criminals in my day got their start on a lifetime of crime.

I will admit that some of those escapades my wife knows nothing of because it wasn't shared. It wasn't shared because wasn't proud, just thankful didn't ruin my life. But if she should ever ask, wouldn't lie to her. Don't think she would care about any of it.

Don't think it is OK to deceive a potential mate about any of the things mentioned, and lying is always the wrong way to go.

And, suppose my wife had a past she never shared (not likely because again, we met in HS so I was present and a participant when she did the wildest stuff ), I like to think would be disappointed she didn't trust me, but wouldn't change our lives together. After all, at some point the good a person does ought to overshadow whatever bad they did ( with exceptions of course ). The story of the adultress about to be stoned comes to mind, she didn't commit the crime by herself. I certainly was not an angel growing up, so don't expect anyone else to have been.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Mr.Married said:


> It is never ok to lie about anything. If you are asked and you don’t give a direct answer then the other person should decide if that is good enough and they will leave it alone or they want the absolute detail of the truth. If he didn’t say “I want the absolute truth” then he accepted the answer he was given.
> 
> Not giving an answer and lying are two different things.
> 
> ...


I think the person who would ask questions that are too personal and private is also at fault and putting up a red flag. I would clear out at the first sign of someone being too invasive and not respecting any privacy.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

So where are we? Worst case, OP's husband is wrong for not being persistent and asking her for specific numbers as to how many men she's screwed. Shame on OPH. If he can't live with the information, regardless of when or how it was obtained, he should end the marriage. What if he had found out six years later that he's gay? He should let his wife know and decide whether to end the marriage so that he can be with his desired partner. Should he apologize for being gay? Should he apologize for not putting her through an inquisition? That's up to him. He should just move on. Then, OP might want to be careful with disclosing information to the next guy.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> For those here who think it's ok to lie to a spouse or potential spouse about your past sex life, or deceive them,I am genuinely interested to know if this also applies to other things.
> For example if you have ever been in trouble with the police and charged/ jailed would you tell them? Is it ok to deceive on that?
> If you have maybe been divorced 3 times would it be ok not to tell them how many? Is that ok?
> If you have been charged for drink driving would you hide that?
> ...


It is never OK to lie about these things. 

However, I think no relationship can survive complete honesty. 

If your wife asks you if you think she is overweight and you truly believe she is and be complete honest with her and tell her this I don't think your will have a very good marriage. 

But there things you cannot lie about.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

romantic_dreamer said:


> It is never OK to lie about these things.
> 
> However, I think no relationship can survive complete honesty.
> 
> ...


I very much disagree. 

I am honest with my wife when she asks my opinion. If something looks bad on her, i tell her. 

But, honestly, i don't care about that kind of stuff. My wife is attractive to me because of her personality. She is not over weight. I have dated people that weighed MUCH more than her. 

She knows i love her anyway, so she asks me for my honest opinion on things, and i give her an honest answer.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

As'laDain said:


> I very much disagree.
> 
> I am honest with my wife when she asks my opinion. If something looks bad on her, i tell her.
> 
> ...


Telling your partner everything you think or see about them is not honesty, it is insensitivity that will destroy any long marriage. Loving person cannot be insensitive regardless of what he or she thinks.

There were many things I thought or knew my wife did wrong. I know saying this to her in any shape or form would have hurt her a lot. Why would I want to hurt the person I love? If I said them to her it would not have been real honesty, it would be have been honest insensitivity. She would have not appreciated it, she would have been hurt. I am pretty sure during the course of our many years of marriage she had many instances when I did something wrong. She may honestly think I was stupid to buy too much berries so half spoiled. She is not going to say this to me. Maybe next time she will very politely suggest buying fewer berries.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

romantic_dreamer said:


> Telling your partner everything you think or see about them is not honesty, it is insensitivity that will destroy any long marriage. Loving person cannot be insensitive regardless of what he or she thinks.
> 
> There were many things I thought or knew my wife did wrong. I know saying this to her in any shape or form would have hurt her a lot. Why would I want to hurt the person I love? If I said them to her it would not have been real honesty, it would be have been honest insensitivity. She would have not appreciated it, she would have been hurt. I am pretty sure during the course of our many years of marriage she had many instances when I did something wrong. She may honestly think I was stupid to buy too much berries so half spoiled. She is not going to say this to me. Maybe next time she will very politely suggest buying fewer berries.


I have been married for 13 years. Radical honesty has worked for us so far. 

🤷


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> In our case, it's kinda hard. We sometimes experience things that are so powerful that they change our whole outlook on everything.
> 
> But we can't talk about it. We want to talk about it, but we can't.
> 
> ...


I understand but it's not about lying to deceive or to hide something from your wife. It's a separate issue.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Personally, I don't think it's OK to lie to your partner, ever. That's the person that you choose to spend/build your life with, and it needs to be a relationship where trust is there. There are little things though that I do believe are OK, such as talking with a family member/friend of your partner about planning a surprise party for you partner, and being asked who you were talking to. In a case like that, I feel like it's totally OK to fib a little so it doesn't ruin the surprise.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Ursula said:


> Personally, I don't think it's OK to lie to your partner, ever. That's the person that you choose to spend/build your life with, and it needs to be a relationship where trust is there. There are little things though that I do believe are OK, such as talking with a family member/friend of your partner about planning a surprise party for you partner, and being asked who you were talking to. In a case like that, I feel like it's totally OK to fib a little so it doesn't ruin the surprise.


I agree. I’m confused to why it is even a debate. 🤷🏼‍♀️


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

When you can get away with it?


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> I understand but it's not about lying to deceive or to hide something from your wife. It's a separate issue.


If your wife asks if the dress she bought looks great on her and you think she looks horrible on her (never been the case with my wife) you cannot hide anything. you either tell her what you really think thus most likely hurting her or you tell her what she wants to hear which is technically a lie. Given the choice I always technically lie but I lie not to hurt the person I love. She does the same. And we appreciate this lie so we never discuss openly or admit it.

BTW, it not only applies to marriage. If you are brutally honest with your friends you will soon have no friends, if you are brutally honest with your boss you will have no job.

We human are designed to measure our response and not verbalize everything we have in our minds and heads which would be complete honesty. Saying everything we think is fine by 3 year old but responsible adults must think where honesty is a must and when it is not.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Ursula said:


> Personally, I don't think it's OK to lie to your partner, ever.


And then...



> There are little things though that I do believe are OK, such as talking with a family member/friend of your partner about planning a surprise party for you partner, and being asked who you were talking to. In a case like that, I feel like it's totally OK to fib a little so it doesn't ruin the surprise.


So it's not okay to lie to your partner *ever*, except in cases like you quoted? 

(I'm not arguing with you. I agree with you.)


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> My last unit had a chaplain that had a TS clearance, so i could talk to him. My current unit has a couple of behavioral health specialists that have TS clearances, so i can talk to them.


I'm happy you have at least someone to talk to. 



DownByTheRiver said:


> I mean, you know from being on this board that having even one other lover who has a bigger **** or is better in bed is enough to shrivel and ruin an insecure overly curious male partner. So why would you share that?


The bigger question is why would you be with someone so insecure? 

When I was young I had a crush on a fellow named M.


pastasauce79 said:


> Would you be satisfied with answer like: "I'm not proud of what I did in my past. I am a better person now. I really don't want to talk about it."? I think that's an honest answer.


I'm not who you asked, but I think that's a fair answer. If the questioner doesn't find that sufficient they have the option of walking away.



frenchpaddy said:


> some people are thinking if she can lie about her irrelevant history she can never be trusted and will lie about other things ,


To her husband her history isn't irrelevant. And, yes, if she will lie about one thing she will lie about others. 



frenchpaddy said:


> but the same people would vote for a leader that lies to them every day


There is a huge difference between politician and spouse/SO.



frenchpaddy said:


> so the man that he himself had sex with other women can't take the truth that his wife had a time in her life when she lived free


This really isn't a gender thing. I know quite a few women who won't date or marry a man with a "high body count" because they think it's "gross".

Most men who find out later it's not the body count, but the lie. For women who find out later, too, by the way. They realize they can't trust their spouse the way they thought they could. The spouse misrepresented themselves, took away the partner's agency, and obviously that's going to damage, if not destroy, any relationship.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> I guess I just don't see why anyone would want to hide or keep things from the closest person in their lives.


Probably because said person would leave if they knew the truth.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Missed this and posted before I saw it.



hamadryad said:


> Guys lie to women, often to protect them.....
> 
> No woman would want to be told that they look horrible in a certain outfit, their vagina is like the Grand Canyon, or some other aspect that may crush their spirit and give them anxiety and self doubt...Or if a guy finds one of her friends attractive or she has nice boobs, should he be honest about it and tell his wife? Same for women...No woman would ever tell a man that his tiny pecker is unsatisfying and she can barely feel it...The best thing she can do there is avoid it, and if asked, come up with a lie...
> 
> ...


I'm learning so much about other people's relationships! I am also very very grateful I have the marriage I do.

Yes, DH has said "Oh, honey, no." to some outfits I've liked and tried to wear. He'd then explain why the outfit didn't flatter me. He was right each time. The outfits really didn't suit me due to cut, pattern, or color. I couldn't imagine being pissy over that. And I've done the same for him. He'll just say "Huh, really? Ya think so? Yeah, I'll wear this instead. Does this look better?"

DH knows he's not the biggest lover I've had and I know I'm not the tightest lover he's had in his life. He's heard my stories and I've met the woman because she dated his close friend after they split up. Nice lady. It's not a big deal. Why should it be? Our sex is mind blowing. Who cares if a past partner had differently shaped or sized genitals?

Yes, I tell my DH if I think a man is attractive. He tells me if he thinks a woman is attractive. We'll tell each other what about the other person is attractive, if they say or do something to make themselves unattractive, etc. We're married, not blind. 

I'd consider telling me everything is fine financially when it actually is not a deadly serious breech of trust. Tell me the truth, tell me why we're strapped for cash, and let's work on it. Lie to me? Whoo, boy, I'd rain down holy hell the second I find out. And I would because that stuff always comes out eventually.



romantic_dreamer said:


> It is never OK to lie about these things.
> 
> However, I think no relationship can survive complete honesty.
> 
> ...


We've been doing the radical honesty thing for 21 years and counting. For me and DH this radical honesty is the foundation of our trust and mutual security. I know he won't hold back and neither would I. 

We've had the fat talk. I gained weight and so did DH. He's into a variety of shaped women, mostly curvy thicc, but there is a limit. He didn't mind until I hit about 225. I didn't mind until he started snoring and I got scared for his health. Plus, he felt kinda ****ty about himself, so there's that. That honest talk resulted in me getting a sexy, SEXY, Concept 2 rower, a used Planet Fitness elliptical, a weight set and bench, and a roman chair. I've lost about 30 lbs. DH has lost near 20.

Too bad none of the military fellas live nearby that I know of. I'd let them come over and take turns fulfilling their DI fantasies. I'd be whipped into shape so fast!!


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Sfort said:


> And then...
> 
> So it's not okay to lie to your partner *ever*, except in cases like you quoted?
> 
> (I'm not arguing with you. I agree with you.)


Well, I guess I was thinking about scenarios such as:

Talking to his friend Bob about when we were going to get together for a romp in the hay yet telling him I'm talking to my friend Jane. VS talking to his Mom about his surprise bday party yet telling him I'm talking to my friend Jane. There are serious situations (cheating, prosecution by police, anything legal), then there are innocuous situations like wanting something to be a surprise. I would want a surprise to remain that way, then come clean after, "hey remember when I said I was talking to Jane about going for coffee? Yeah, I was actually talking to your Mom about this party". The Bob scenario, he'd be rightfully angry about; the party situation, he'd be way more understanding. 😊


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Ursula said:


> Well, I guess I was thinking about scenarios such as:
> 
> Talking to his friend Bob about when we were going to get together for a romp in the hay yet telling him I'm talking to my friend Jane. VS talking to his Mom about his surprise bday party yet telling him I'm talking to my friend Jane. There are serious situations (cheating, prosecution by police, anything legal), then there are innocuous situations like wanting something to be a surprise. I would want a surprise to remain that way, then come clean after, "hey remember when I said I was talking to Jane about going for coffee? Yeah, I was actually talking to your Mom about this party". The Bob scenario, he'd be rightfully angry about; the party situation, he'd be way more understanding. 😊


I agree that there are times when it may be appropriate to lie to your spouse, such as when he or she walks in on you masturbating, assuming you don't do that sort of thing as a couple. Maybe it's a good idea for a spouse to lie if he or she is thinking about an old boyfriend or girlfriend during sex. I can't see that level of honesty ever being beneficial.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

MJJEAN said:


> Missed this and posted before I saw it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am happy it worked for your marriage. It would not work for mine and we have been very happily married for almost 25 years. I cannot imagine hurting my wife just to be "honest" she would never appreciate this and neither would I. I might be biased but I think most marriages or relationships would be hurt by unrestricted honesty and lack of sensitivity.

It is true for all other types of relationships. If I were "radically honest" with my kids I would have destroyed their self-esteem. If I were "radically honest" with my friends I would have no friends. 

There are topics an subjects that need honesty and facing the truth no mater how difficult it is. All topics OP listed fall into this category. But there issues when sensitivity is more important than honesty.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

romantic_dreamer said:


> I might be biased but I think most marriages or relationships would be hurt by unrestricted honesty and lack of sensitivity.
> 
> It is true for all other types of relationships. If I were "radically honest" with my kids I would have destroyed their self-esteem. If I were "radically honest" with my friends I would have no friends.


I can't imagine honesty being hurtful or insensitive. Especially if one knows how to phrase things. I also practice radical honesty with my kids and my friends. Not my family. Half of them I went NC with and the other half I barely talk to and when we do talk we're polite. Not close or warm. Those I am close to I am very honest with. Others I say the polite thing.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

romantic_dreamer said:


> If your wife asks if the dress she bought looks great on her and you think she looks horrible on her (never been the case with my wife) you cannot hide anything. you either tell her what you really think thus most likely hurting her or you tell her what she wants to hear which is technically a lie. Given the choice I always technically lie but I lie not to hurt the person I love. She does the same. And we appreciate this lie so we never discuss openly or admit it.
> 
> BTW, it not only applies to marriage. If you are brutally honest with your friends you will soon have no friends, if you are brutally honest with your boss you will have no job.
> 
> We human are designed to measure our response and not verbalize everything we have in our minds and heads which would be complete honesty. Saying everything we think is fine by 3 year old but responsible adults must think where honesty is a must and when it is not.


“I like the other one better. That color just doesn’t look good on you.”

“Yeah, you’ve gained a few pounds. Who cares?” <smacks ass>

“Yuck — I don’t like this. Tastes like there’s too much <whatever>.”

And probably my all-time #1 hit from waaaay back in the late 90s when she cut off her long, beautiful, black hair:

“It sucks.”

Going on 28 years — 22 married.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> I can't imagine honesty being hurtful or insensitive. Especially if one knows how to phrase things. I also practice radical honesty with my kids and my friends. *Not my family. Half of them I went NC with and the other half I barely talk to and when we do talk we're polite. Not close or warm.* Those I am close to I am very honest with. Others I say the polite thing.


I had my very first honest communication with my father a few weeks ago. It was radical honesty. I'm pretty sure I didn't phrase things well. 😬

To sum up his response - _**** you_.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

minimalME said:


> I had my very first honest communication with my father a few weeks ago. It was radical honesty. I'm pretty sure I didn't phrase things well. 😬
> 
> To sum up his response - _**** you_.


But you told the truth, so all is well. Right?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

If wife asks if the dress looks good on her, you can always give it a think and then say, "I'm undecided." Not a lie. You're undecided if it's wise to tell her it looks crazy on her.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If wife asks if the dress looks good on her, you can always give it a think and then say, "I'm undecided." Not a lie. You're undecided if it's wise to tell her it looks crazy on her.


But that's lying by omission!!!


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Sfort said:


> But you told the truth, so all is well. Right?


I wouldn't say all is well, but I do finally feel like an adult, and I'm not fearful/afraid anymore. 

So there are very good aspects to it. 🙂


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

frenchpaddy said:


> I will try , just think if a woman had been in say 3 relationships and between 2 of them she went through a time that she had a lot of one night stands , then she got back on the straight and narrow and met a guy that was straight lased and when he asked about her past in the early days of their relationship and she was at that time not knowing if the relationship was going to last long so she holds back the info by changing the subject and a little good hummer , but they end up getting married and have kids before he brings up the subject again I think years have gone by and the past life is no more , i think she is better off telling him as little as she can , own up to the 2 other relationships and maybe 1 or to other short relationships


I wouldn't want such a woman as my wife. If she didn't know me well enough to know that those one night stands were a deal-breaker for me, she wouldn't know me at all and since you don't marry a stranger, she would have had no business marrying me. If she knew that those one night stands were a deal breaker for me and hid it, she is lying scum who would base a relationship on fraud and has no business marrying me.

Lying by omission is just as bad as lying to someone's face.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

MJJEAN said:


> Missed this and posted before I saw it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You would consider it a 'deadly serious breach".(bolded) but in my case it was absolutely the 1000% right thing to do at that particular time...NOTHING would have been gained by being honest with her, and more than likely all it would have done is slip us into more of a hole...I remember when she didn't want to put any money into the stock market, because she thought it was too risky,,,,That was 27 years ago, and I went ahead and did it anyway.....same for the multiple houses i flipped...She wouldn't have been on board for any of it....but she wound up reaping the enormous benefits after the fact....but that's another story,,, Despite our many differences as the years rolled on, she would be the first to tell you if you asked her, that she was thankful that I just "took care of things" at that time, because she didn't have the stomach for any of it...

You and the others can talk about about radical honesty all you want, and who knows, maybe it works for you and your H, and that's great...but most relationships would never survive that...If a woman I was with was 225 lbs, and I had to be radically honest how I felt about it, there is no way imaginable that they wouldn't be crushed by what I would say....i just can't see how that would inspire anyone at that point...but congrats on the weight loss all the same...We're talking radically honest, here..not some sugar coated version of honesty....because that is really no different than a flat out lie..

I dunno...I guess this all falls into the category of what people do in their own lives and what they feel they need to do to get by...Just look at all of the people that come on this site, falling completely apart and hysterical, because their partner decided they would be radically honest about their past sexual exploits and desires...Like if everything was going great, why on Earth would anyone choose to drop that type of bomb??

Eh..if it works for some couples, great...I just don't think its the type of thing that most people can just let roll off their back...


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> In our case, it's kinda hard. We sometimes experience things that are so powerful that they change our whole outlook on everything.
> 
> But we can't talk about it. We want to talk about it, but we can't.
> 
> ...


Exactly....like me having to read criminal histories and offense reports about what someone did to another....in detail. I take it home but do not tell. 

The detailed reports of rapes and child sexual assaults. Interviews by Child Advocacy counselors with little children about what the adult did to them. Intimate diagrams by medical staff of where and what types of injuries the victims have. No way in hell would i allow my wife or daughters to leave the house the way many of these kids dress now a days. I will not let my wife go to the store alone after dark. People would freak if they actually knew how many sex offenders they interact with daily. Alot of women/girls do it and they are already half undressed.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

hamadryad said:


> I remember when she didn't want to put any money into the stock market, because she thought it was too risky,,,,That was 27 years ago, and I went ahead and did it anyway.....same for the multiple houses i flipped...She wouldn't have been on board for any of it....


Most people would classify that as financial infidelity. You took marital funds and gambled them on real estate and stocks knowing your wife would seriously disapprove. It doesn't matter that you were right. You lied about something very real, the family's financial security, either by omission, commission, or both. You broke trust. I don't know many relationships that would survive that.

It sounds like you lie to your wife so that you can do as you damn well please, even against her express wishes, and keep the peace.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

Dictum Veritas said:


> I wouldn't want such a woman as my wife. If she didn't know me well enough to know that those one night stands were a deal-breaker for me, she wouldn't know me at all and since you don't marry a stranger, she would have had no business marrying me. If she knew that those one night stands were a deal breaker for me and hid it, she is lying scum who would base a relationship on fraud and has no business marrying me.
> 
> Lying by omission is just as bad as lying to someone's face.


 yes you have said many times we know your personal opinion on this subject ,


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

frenchpaddy said:


> yes you have said many times we know your personal opinion on this subject ,


Then, please show me the flaw in my logic. When is it okay to lie to a prospective partner directly or by omission? Dispute my logic, and prove it's nothing but an opinion.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I draw the line when something does or could materially affect me or our relationship. A past felony charge could do so, by limiting their (thus our) employment and credit prospects. Having been a sex worker of any kind could limit social and career prospects if discovered by friends or employers. Whether they had 1 or 100 sex partners, threesomes, etc., etc., does not matter if they are someone I like now and find compatible. We are all judgmental about some things, whether rightly or wrongly. If something does not materially affect the relationship (as I described above), then IMO it's often best not to bring up things that introduce bias. Often, we think we ought to know, but most of the time we are actually happier not knowing things. Sometimes these things come out anyway, and the partner has a hard time with it. That is THEIR problem, especially if they've had a good relationships previously while not knowing. Nothing has changed except their biases have been triggered - it's then time for them to work on overcoming such prejudices, IMO.

So, withhold information all you want as long as it does not _materially _affect the relationship. _Actively lying_, however, would still be a deal breaker. That is manipulation. Better to say it's not up for discussion if asked.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> I draw the line when something does or could materially affect me or our relationship. A past felony charge could do so, by limiting their (thus our) employment and credit prospects. Having been a sex worker of any kind could limit social and career prospects if discovered by friends or employers. Whether they had 1 or 100 sex partners, threesomes, etc., etc., does not matter if they are someone I like now and find compatible. We are all judgmental about some things, whether rightly or wrongly. If something does not materially affect the relationship (as I described above), then IMO it's often best not to bring up things that introduce bias. Often, we think we ought to know, but most of the time we are actually happier not knowing things. Sometimes these things come out anyway, and the partner has a hard time with it. That is THEIR problem, especially if they've had a good relationships previously while not knowing. Nothing has changed except their biases have been triggered - it's then time for them to work on overcoming such prejudices, IMO.


One difficulty is when revelation comes from outside the relationship. In this age of sharing everything on internet and will never go away, wonder if people realize their past can appear in technocolor in unfortunate future time. Like the kids see their mom's old fansonly video while surfing the web


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

romantic_dreamer said:


> If your wife asks if the dress she bought looks great on her and you think she looks horrible on her (never been the case with my wife) you cannot hide anything. you either tell her what you really think thus most likely hurting her or you tell her what she wants to hear which is technically a lie. Given the choice I always technically lie but I lie not to hurt the person I love. She does the same. And we appreciate this lie so we never discuss openly or admit it.
> 
> BTW, it not only applies to marriage. If you are brutally honest with your friends you will soon have no friends, if you are brutally honest with your boss you will have no job.
> 
> We human are designed to measure our response and not verbalize everything we have in our minds and heads which would be complete honesty. Saying everything we think is fine by 3 year old but responsible adults must think where honesty is a must and when it is not.


Then say, It's OK, i personally think X looks better. I love my wife enough that and i am not going to let her leave the house if i think what she has on is crap. Would you let her leave in something you see is actually transparent from certain angles. Its fine babe( even though i can see through it when you bend over and the world can tell it is your time because white pad is obvious through the translucent material when stretched bending over or sitting).

If my wife let me leave in something that she thought makes me look like a dork by not saying anything. I would be a little miffed at her and feel like she really does not care about me being ridiculed or embarrassed.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

in a perfect world with on drugs drink and people able enjoy themselves with out loosing control , 
men and women that apply the same standards to themselves and others , 
people that all have the same likes needs and sex drive

but when people come to this forum for advice I would like to think we look each case on what is asked for and not judge the poster 
run them down because they have or had once a different code to myself , 
I except you even though you have been a lot more promiscuous than I ,
so I do not apply my standards on other posters and respect them when they open their hart to us , some do not the woman of last 
week was treated very badly by some of the other people here and some of the posts called her names that shocked me .

this is a forum around marriage and in so yes I would wish people could tell each-other the truth in relationship to history that might have an impact on there married life 
and i wish the people taking the information could take that on in an adult way in regard to how it affects them and do this before or at the time of getting engaged together , 



Dictum Veritas said:


> Then, please show me the flaw in my logic. When is it okay to lie to a prospective partner directly or by omission? Dispute my logic, and prove it's nothing but an opinion.


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

frenchpaddy said:


> in a perfect world with on drugs drink and people able enjoy themselves with out loosing control ,
> men and women that apply the same standards to themselves and others ,
> people that all have the same likes needs and sex drive
> 
> ...


What I take away from that is that logic does not matter, making moral judgements is wrong and lying (even in values fundamental to the foundation of relationship) is okay because a spade can also be called a shovel.

No, the lady (in the thread you referenced) was forced to face reality and reality is an unforgiving mistress. I feel sorry for her, but maybe somewhere another young lady was reading the thread and thought to herself: "Maybe I shouldn't open that tinder profile for hookups or spend the night with Chad, because I don't want to be this woman one day."

To her, that thread may have just saved her future relationship.

Truth and reality as well as the truth about reality shall set you free.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

Dictum Veritas said:


> What I take away from that is that logic does not matter, making moral judgements is wrong and lying (even in values fundamental to the foundation of relationship) is okay because a spade can also be called a shovel.
> 
> No, the lady (in the thread you referenced) was forced to face reality and reality is an unforgiving mistress. I feel sorry for her, but maybe somewhere another young lady was reading the thread and thought to herself: "Maybe I shouldn't open that tinder profile for hookups or spend the night with Chad, because I don't want to be this woman one day."
> 
> ...


 this is a a good point if she came and asked what should she do if she in going into a next relationship , and I would be with you on that , 
but looking into the facts of the question based on the fact that they had spent 6 years at least together happy good sex life good all around relationship 
and had 2 children they need to try find a way past this , 

in my thinking and if I was her husband I wound place most on the 6 years and the family first above all ,


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

frenchpaddy said:


> this is a a good point if she came and asked what should she do if she in going into a next relationship , and I would be with you on that ,
> but looking into the facts of the question based on the fact that they had spent 6 years at least together happy good sex life good all around relationship
> and had 2 children they need to try find a way past this ,
> 
> in my thinking and if I was her husband I wound place most on the 6 years and the family first above all ,


The answer to her question could be found by deductive reasoning. She can do nothing, she lied and hid her past, it's a deal-breaker for her husband. It's called consequences and she's facing the consequences of her actions and decisions. She can but throw herself at his mercy and hope for the best. By highlighting the fact that she wronged her husband, the answer to her question is inferred for all but the lowest of intellects to comprehend, as plain as day.

As her husband, I would have been disgusted in her and most probably part ways. I don't believe if she was capable of lying about this she wouldn't have lied about a plethora of other primary issues throughout the marriage. I can't stay married the her I can no longer trust.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

There are lies, omissions & diplomacy They are different.

If your spouse asks you a direct Q any answer must be the truth but truth has degrees. As I said in another thread, when people pushed me for an answer to the "how many people have you been with?" question, I defected. I never gave them a number. Maybe they wanted a number but that will never happen in my world. 

I remember when I was in my 20s & my mom asked me if I was sleeping with some guy. I was but I knew that would upset her. She always preached waiting until marriage. I told her that the Q put me in a bind because if I lied to her she'd be hurt if she found out but if I told her the truth that would hurt her too so I asked if she really wanted me to answer the Q. I suggested it would be better if she went on assuming I was not & leave it at that. She was wise enough to drop the subject.

Then there are omissions or technicalities. If the person didn't ask it wasn't your place to disclose trivial stuff. Big stuff like a prior felony conviction, a failed marriage or the existence of children, yeah you probably have to speak up. However in this day & age anybody who doesn't at least do an internet search on a new SO is a fool.

I'll give you an example of the technicalities. I was dating a guy & something happened. He hurt himself. We were on our way to a family function of his. He begged me not to tell his mother but he needed help. I agreed not to tell mom. I walked in the house & told his sister who immediately told his mom. Many members of his family supported me. I didn't lie to him. I kept my promise not to tell the mom. I just found a loophole. 

Finally there is diplomacy. . the art of being positive. The easiest example is the "does this make me look fat?" Q. If the asker truly looks bad in the outfit, diplomacy mandates that you say "you'd look better in [something else]." You didn't lie to them & tell them it looks good but you didn't hurt their feelings & you spared them from public humiliation.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

D0nnivain said:


> There are lies, omissions & diplomacy They are different.
> 
> If your spouse asks you a direct Q any answer must be the truth but truth has degrees. As I said in another thread, when people pushed me for an answer to the "how many people have you been with?" question, I defected. I never gave them a number. Maybe they wanted a number but that will never happen in my world.
> 
> ...



Yep......

"Radical honesty:", as it has been portrayed, is something that is just fraught with mine fields...In both relationships and life in general...

Just think of it another way..I probably only really "like" less than half of my customers...If I was radically honest about it, i'd probably go broke in a month...So you do what most people do, you tell them some bs, conduct business, and move on with your life....

I remember there was a woman that brought me home cooked meals from time to time...I never asked, I just suppose she was just being nice or maybe had some other motivation, I dunno...Anyway, I know she has a bunch of animals living in her place and she is generally unkempt in appearance, etc...I graciously accepted the gesture, and when she left, I threw the food right in the trash...When she asked, I said it was great and that I was thankful...I mean, according to some here, I should have told her not to bother because she's a slob and I wouldn't want a stomach flu??

The examples just in daily life are endless...

I know of not one single woman that would take kindly to any man. particularly a SO., telling her flat out that she is fat or way overweight....It's a bomb...a nuclear bomb....If you want to make that point, then you would have to do it very carefully with a ton of subterfuge....and may never get to tell them truly how you feel...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> For those here who think it's ok to lie to a spouse or potential spouse about your past sex life, or deceive them,I am genuinely interested to know if this also applies to other things.
> For example if you have ever been in trouble with the police and charged/ jailed would you tell them? Is it ok to deceive on that?
> If you have maybe been divorced 3 times would it be ok not to tell them how many? Is that ok?
> If you have been charged for drink driving would you hide that?
> Caught shop lifting in your past? Expelled from school or college? Caught taking illegal drugs? Drinking too much?


A few thoughts. Anything that is even possible for them to find out about should be subject to absolute truth. To use your example of a DUI. I live in WA State. Our driver's licenses have a code on them that allows Canadian customs/immigration agents to know if you have had a DUI and bar entry into Canada. How would you explain to a spouse as you are denied entry into Canada on a trip with them that you had lied about a past DUI. If you have had a DUI, also expect higher insurance rates. If you lie about such things there is a good chance that sooner or later you will be found out.

If you volunteer in our local schools to help with a child's class, you need to go through a criminal background check in most states. You don't want to lie about something, find out you are barred from helping in a child's classroom and have to explain why you lied to your spouse about a criminal record.

If you lie about something like appearing in a porn video, being in trouble with the law and your spouse ever runs for political office, expect to have yourself outed and very publicly and embarris your entire family. We have all read stories about some grade school teacher who either appeared in porn or nude photography while struggling in college and was fired by her local school board when her past caught up to her.

I really favor honesty in a long term relationship. It really is important that you and your spouse can trust each other.

However, some lies may do less damage, but if you engage in such a lie, you need to be prepared to take it to your grave and never reveal it. That may require a lot of acceptance of gult and suffering on your part. And only if you are absolutely certain that no one will ever find out, should you even consider it.

Sometimes doing evil can be considered "good" by some. The same can be said of a lie that is done to protect someone from great harm. A story that illustrates this is as follows. "...The Buddha, in a past life as a ship's captain named Super Compassionate, discovered a criminal on board who intended to kill the 500 passengers. If he told the passengers, they would panic and become killers themselves. With no other way out, he compassionately stabbed the criminal to death. Captain Compassionate saved the passengers not only from murder, but from becoming murderers themselves. Unlike him, they would have killed in rage and suffered hell. He saved the criminal from becoming a mass murderer and even worse suffering. He himself generated vast karmic merit by acting with compassion. ...." (Not sure I buy that story, and not sure there was no other option, but it does illustrate a line of thought that could allow one to do evil in the name of "good" and possibly live with themselves.)

Not many situations can be justified like that, but perhaps there are some that would deserve a "lie of compassion." If one does decide on a lie of compassion it should be something that is totally untraceable, it is something that you will take to your grave. That will likely be harder as you get older. Therefore if this is something, it should not be done because a lie is easier than confessing the truth. This kind of lie will be much harder than telling the truth in the long run. 

I am into DNA genealogy and have to shake my head at all the half siblings who do not have the biological father they think they do and how those lies unravel under modern DNA testing. Even children created with sperm from donors to the local sperm bank by a loving couple who have fertility issues are finding out about things not told to them by their parents. Again, there are few lies that can pass the test of time, modern science, electronic databases and search engines.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

While it’s important to be honest, honesty isn’t always the _best_ policy. If you’re wielding honesty like a weapon, it’s time to rethink your approach.

For example, let’s take critiquing your friend’s art. There’s nothing _major_ wrong, but you just don’t love the work. Bluntly telling your friend that their art is terrible won’t help anything — honesty is only worthwhile when it’s helpful. The criticism needs to be constructive for your friend to make meaningful use of it.

Is your honesty a disguise for putting other people down? Consider how your “truth-telling” makes them feel. Were you actually mean for no reason? Sometimes, keeping up appearances trumps honesty. On some occasions, keeping your mouth shut maintains everyone’s good mood. The golden rule is always a helpful baseline.

sometimes you have to be honest to yourself 
Honesty encompasses far more than simply being truthful about one’s self. You need to be honest with others, too. If someone is looking for critique, simply saying, “It’s amazing!”
we get this a lot with people talking about fashion people saying something that is not wearable is the next hit 


Honesty can be protective, too. When someone invades your personal space or says something rude, it can be tempting to ignore the imposition. After all, you don’t want to make waves. But protecting yourself is important —and by doing so, you protect other people, too. Perhaps someone is being more touchy-feely than you’d prefer. Telling them to take a long step backward might prevent them from later invading someone _else_‘s space.

While you should obviously try to be honest whenever possible, it is OK to occasionally tell a little white lie, or withhold the truth, if it means keeping the peace or preserving a relationship.

"If telling the whole truth will make you unsafe, ruin your reputation, or cause general headaches, keeping quiet is always an option,

while authenticity and honesty are important, not everyone is entitled to know your life story or have access to your authentic self. 
 so there is a time to tell and sometimes if the question is asked too early in the relationship you are right to feel it is better to not go there at that time 
does not say you can not go back to the subject at a later date when the relationship is more important .

The traditional view about romantic relationships is that there should be no secrets between a couple — none at all. When someone loves us for who we truly are, it gives us the freedom and right to share every single thought and idea with them…right? Intimacy is so important that we sometimes forget about respecting the boundaries of our partners, especially in terms of considering what we say to them. 

Every person has different perceptions of what makes a perfect relationship. Some believe that true love ought to be able to withstand every single ugly truth. But not everyone does, and your partner could be one of them. Realising this and taking steps to establish a line between truthfulness and respect will help your relationship flourish more than pure honesty can. 


Keeping things from your partner isn’t the same as maintaining personal privacy, in terms of your thoughts or opinions. The former hints that there’s something to hide and has negative implications; the latter is purely an individual’s right. This line is drawn at different proximities for different couples. No matter how fine this line is, every couple consists of two autonomous people with every right to protect their own privacy, even from their partner.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> I am into DNA genealogy and have to shake my head at all the half siblings who do not have the biological father they think they do and how those lies unravel under modern DNA testing. Even children created with sperm from donors to the local sperm bank by a loving couple who have fertility issues are finding out about things not told to them by their parents. Again, there are few lies that can pass the test of time, modern science, electronic databases and search engines.


 I went to school with a guy that later I got to know that he killed himself , he fell in love with a local girl where he lived 
the parents were against the relationship , and when he came home and told his father he wanted to get married 
he father told him you dating your half sister , 

this story opens the question even more


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> I draw the line when something does or could materially affect me or our relationship. A past felony charge could do so, by limiting their (thus our) employment and credit prospects. Having been a sex worker of any kind could limit social and career prospects if discovered by friends or employers. Whether they had 1 or 100 sex partners, threesomes, etc., etc., does not matter if they are someone I like now and find compatible. We are all judgmental about some things, whether rightly or wrongly. If something does not materially affect the relationship (as I described above), then IMO it's often best not to bring up things that introduce bias. Often, we think we ought to know, but most of the time we are actually happier not knowing things. Sometimes these things come out anyway, and the partner has a hard time with it. That is THEIR problem, especially if they've had a good relationships previously while not knowing. Nothing has changed except their biases have been triggered - it's then time for them to work on overcoming such prejudices, IMO.
> 
> So, withhold information all you want as long as it does not _materially _affect the relationship. _Actively lying_, however, would still be a deal breaker. That is manipulation. Better to say it's not up for discussion if asked.


I think that most things in our past still affect us now, so in that way they will also affect any relationship we are in.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Sfort said:


> I agree that there are times when it may be appropriate to lie to your spouse, such as when he or she walks in on you masturbating, assuming you don't do that sort of thing as a couple. Maybe it's a good idea for a spouse to lie if he or she is thinking about an old boyfriend or girlfriend during sex. I can't see that level of honesty ever being beneficial.


If there’s a history of lying or withholding, you’ll never get to the point of being comfortable with the idea that your partner might masturbate by them self, might see someone of the opposite sex as being attractive, and you end up living in a fake world you’ve constructed that requires more lying, less honesty, to remain intact. You’ll never have the security to love that person as they are, or be happy with yourself either.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

I keep coming back to a very simplistic belief that, if you’re getting into a relationship with someone and you think they might leave if they knew this or that about you, then that other person isn’t the right person for you. And you’re missing out on finding that person who isn’t bothered by that, so you can live the rest of your life not worrying that your secret is going to be revealed.

The other thing is that it’s just not fair to deny agency to a future spouse. Strategically planning to snare a spouse in that manner isn’t nice. If someone’s comfortable with that strategy, how does it play out in other aspects down the road? Hidden purchases? Decisions made you would have liked to have been a part of? Again we get back to issues of Agency.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> If there’s a history of lying or withholding, you’ll never get to the point of being comfortable with the idea that your partner might masturbate by them self, might see someone of the opposite sex as being attractive, and you end up living in a fake world you’ve constructed that requires more lying, less honesty, to remain intact. You’ll never have the security to love that person as they are, or be happy with yourself either.


This response is a little over my head. It's not you. It's probably me. It seems that my TAM-centric comprehension skills have diminished in the last week.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

How would you feel about a spouse that is lying about substance abuse/addiction? Addiction is pretty much seen now as a medical condition, but it often comes with a lot of lying and hiding things. Suppose you've been married many years and for whatever reason your spouse becomes an addict or is just simply abusing some form of illegal substance and they've been lying or not telling you about it. Would you just bail on them since they lied?


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> How would you feel about a spouse that is lying about substance abuse/addiction? Addiction is pretty much seen now as a medical condition, but it often comes with a lot of lying and hiding things. Suppose you've been married many years and for whatever reason your spouse becomes an addict or is just simply abusing some form of illegal substance and they've been lying or not telling you about it. Would you just bail on them since they lied?


Different people will bail over different lies, there is no one size fits all answer here. I've never moved in circles where people had major substance issues, so I have never thought of the scenario directly. I know this however, the lying in and of itself would have me gathering all my documents and consulting that attorney. Chances are that the resulting lack of trust might very well be the end of the marriage.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> How would you feel about a spouse that is lying about substance abuse/addiction? Addiction is pretty much seen now as a medical condition, but it often comes with a lot of lying and hiding things. Suppose you've been married many years and for whatever reason your spouse becomes an addict or is just simply abusing some form of illegal substance and they've been lying or not telling you about it. Would you just bail on them since they lied?


Whatever the known addiction or situation (known to the person lying or omitting), valuable context that might save the marriage and help the person afflicted has been missing. Things could have been so much better.

in a nutshell, the person lying or omitting is playing a risk/reward assessment and benefitting from their spouses lack of knowledge. Just because they’re playing this game doesn’t mean things will work out better, even for themselves. It depends upon their ability to control and conceal, and their concept of “winning” might be denying them of help they need.

Loojk, I’m not advocating full disclosure for everybody. People who could care less about their potential spouses’ history should pair up with those of similar views. No harm no foul and live happily ever after.

But some see history as a tool,insight into how they became who they are and where they might be going. Assessing based on a static point in time can result in surprises that might be more than some might handle.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I think that most things in our past still affect us now, so in that way they will also affect any relationship we are in.


I agree. My point is that by getting to know the person _now_, what made them who they are is no longer relevant unless it can _materially _affect the relationship now or later.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> I agree. My point is that by getting to know the person _now_, what made them who they are is no longer relevant unless it can _materially _affect the relationship now or later.


It's will emotionally affect it though and that can cause problems.


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## MEA (Jul 12, 2021)

It’s never ok to lie to a spouse. We become one with the person we wed. Lying to a spouse is always both destructive and self-destructive.

My husband, near the beginning of our marriage, used to lie about really stupid small petty things. He said he lied to avoid conflict or confrontation. So basically he thought lying was just easier. It was a knee-jerk reaction in him that developed long before we met. 
I consistently made it the least easiest thing he could possibly do (neither easy nor fun, but I love my H and knew his stupid lies would add up and eventually my resentment at being lied to for the dumbest of things would cross the line of no return), and eventually he stopped his knee-jerk petty lying… which allowed me to finally completely love him without holding back.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> For those here who think it's ok to lie to a spouse or potential spouse about your past sex life, or deceive them,I am genuinely interested to know if this also applies to other things.
> For example if you have ever been in trouble with the police and charged/ jailed would you tell them? Is it ok to deceive on that?
> If you have maybe been divorced 3 times would it be ok not to tell them how many? Is that ok?
> If you have been charged for drink driving would you hide that?
> ...


I have not read any of the 8 pages of responses so I am just going off of the opening questions and my initial interpretations.

For starters, I’m getting the initial impression that you assume that people who do not wish to divulge every detail of their prior love life are going to lie about it or that they are somehow embracing lying and dishonesty. 

I don’t think that is a fair assumption.

Here on TAM I am very open and even blatant about my prior sex life. But in person I am just an Average Joe Sixpack that minds his own business and doesn’t dig into other people’s personal business or blab about my personal business.

In 57 years I never had anyone come right out and ask me how many people I have been to bed with. 

Nor have I in 57 years ever asked anyone else how many people they have been to bed with.

So is it fair to compare me to a criminal or shop lifter or addict/alcoholic?

Quite frankly, here on TAM has been about the only domain in my life where notch counts and prior sexual experiences etc have even been a thing or a topic of discussion. 

People are going to know that I am not an alcoholic/addict because I don’t drink or do drugs. 

I’m obviously not a playa because I’m not at bars picking up chicks.

Do a public record search on a background check and you may find a couple speeding tickets from the 1990s if they keep thos records that long. 

I don’t go to church and don’t have any rigid religious values so I’m not going to be getting with some church girl with rigid, shameful views on sex that values virginity above all else.

Nor am I picking up party girls on ecstasy at the clubs. 

I’m just a Average joe who’s interactions with woman who are normal janes. 

There’s no need to lie. 

The only that lie and that need to lie are the actual con men, con women and intentional gold diggers that actually target naive, less experienced people that have something that they want and are willing to lie and deceive etc to portray themselves as something they are not. 

Just a little bit of digging and probing and even a public record background check, will expose most of those people because most do have legal and bad financial credit histories. 

Not blabbing about your private business and what you do in the privacy of your own bedroom is not lying or dishonesty and it is not comparable to criminal acts, chemical addiction or anti social behavior. In many ways it’s simply being polite.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Nor have I in 57 years ever asked anyone else how many people they have been to bed with.


Actually it just dawned on me that this isn’t exactly true, I did have someone ask me once. 

I had just started a new job and one day at lunch time I came into the break room for lunch and walked into some kind lively discussion and one of my coworkers (who I would quickly learn was quite brazen and even obnoxious in general) turned to me and asked me how many people I had been with. 

I just stood there dumbfounded and shocked that she even asked and everyone else in the room clammed up and also looked surprised that she had the audacity to ask a new coworker that. 

Other that some religious circles and purity culture and for some insecure, relatively inexperienced guys that feel they need a Virgin, I just don’t think it is really that big of a talking point for most people. 

If someone is looking to marry someone they just met in the last few weeks or month or two, then maybe it’s a valid question to see if they were some kind of playa or town ho before you met them a couple months ago. 

But for people that actually date and interact with people they know for good period of time, I just don’t see it as a big issue. 

If you know me, you’ll know that I am a not a Virgin and you will know that I am not a playa. 

What you won’t know (if you’re not here on TAM) is that my wife and I were swingers because that was a private matter between my wife and I in the confines of our marital dynamics and is not anyone else’s business. 

What goes on in the privacy of some bedroom is not anyone else’s business, so there is no need to lie.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I have not read any of the 8 pages of responses so I am just going off of the opening questions and my initial interpretations.
> 
> For starters, I’m getting the initial impression that you assume that people who do not wish to divulge every detail of their prior love life are going to lie about it or that they are somehow embracing lying and dishonesty.
> 
> ...


Most people I think want to be with someone who shares their views and beliefs on marriage and sex. Communicating well on this subject is as important as in any other subject if you are in a serious relationship and wanting to get married.
If you lie/deceive/pretend/hide or whatever it is about the past, no matter what that is, that doesn't bode well for you or the marriage.Honesty and openess are important for couples planning to marry. Never said you have to 'divulge every detail' , it depends on the couple what each wants to know and what they ask.

If the person you are with doesnt care then that's fine, but for many it's important to find out if they are on the same page sexually and it's odd if there is no communication about the sexual past at all when it is a very important part of a relationship.
Oh and you have a very odd and very wrong idea of 'church ladies'. Sex to us isn't in the least shameful or rigid, far from it, but something good and positive and enjoyable in marriage. After all we follow God who created sex. 😊


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Actually it just dawned on me that this isn’t exactly true, I did have someone ask me once.
> 
> I had just started a new job and one day at lunch time I came into the break room for lunch and walked into some kind lively discussion and one of my coworkers (who I would quickly learn was quite brazen and even obnoxious in general) turned to me and asked me how many people I had been with.
> 
> ...


I agree, no need to lie to your spouse about anything. That's why we both know a lot about each others past, why hide anything? We are both open with each other.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Most people I think want to be with someone who shares their views and beliefs on marriage and sex. Communicating well on this subject is as important as in any other subject if you are in a serious relationship and wanting to get married.
> If you lie/deceive/pretend/hide or whatever it is about the past, no matter what that is, that doesn't bode well for you or the marriage.Honesty and openess are important for couples planning to marry. Never said you have to 'divulge every detail' , it depends on the couple what each wants to know and what they ask.
> 
> If the person you are with doesnt care then that's fine, but for many it's important to find out if they are on the same page sexually and it's odd if there is no communication about the sexual past at all when it is a very important part of a relationship.


I agree that people do generally want to be with others that share the same beliefs and values etc and I also agree that it is usually important and beneficial for couples to be of the same or at least similar value systems. 

But most people that are of similar beliefs and value systems LIVE similar lifestyles and are in cultures and communities of similar beliefs and values. 

Most people don’t need to lie or deceive because they are already living within the lifestyles of their beliefs and values and their relationship pools are coming from within those same communities and cultures. 

Again, I’m 57 years old and have never asked anyone how many people they’ve had sex with nor have I had anyone ask me (for all practical purposes)


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Now where I DO see this as an issue and where it turns into big shtshows here is when you get these somewhat naive and relatively inexperienced men that are either religious or are simply insecure enough that feel threatened if their partner isn’t some sweet innocent little Virgin and they meet some gal that is tired of being rode hard and hung up wet and wants to find some guy that will put a roof over her head and feed her illegitimate kid(s) and so she goes to church and said she made a “mistake” and that some guy(s) took advantage of her or used and abused her etc and manages to convince the naive, inexperienced guy that she is really some church girl that duped by some guy at a party one night. 

Then when the naive guy finds out she really screwed half the campus and comes across her sex videos on the internet, he cries foul and has an existential crisis that what he thought was a sweet, innocent, near-virgin was actually the town bicycle. 

That happens quite a bit. Or at least it does on forums like these. 

But after a little more probing we find out the guy was well into his mid-upper 20s before he had his first real date and he was latching into and wanting to marry and ride off into the sunset with the first gal under 200lbs that ever gave him the time of and by this time the gals that were trying to get with him were looking for some Captain Save-A-Ho or white knight that would save them and take care of them with pumping and dumping them.

And those guys were simply too naive and inexperienced to realize that these were the town bicycles that had been riding the Carousel for years and years before showing up to church that day they met them. 

That’s where deception and the sharks in lamb’s clothing are coming from.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Oh and you have a very odd and very wrong idea of 'church ladies'. Sex to us isn't in the least shameful or rigid, far from it, but something good and positive and enjoyable in marriage. After all we follow God who created sex. 😊


Oh c'mon!! 😠

I'm glad you've managed to have what you consider a good sex life, but you are way too smart and way to knowledgeable about the world to sit there and deny that countless people's sexualities have been toxified or even destroyed by religious rhetoric and indoctrination. 

Even the verbiage of your opening post is rife with moralistic judgementalism implying that anyone who doesn't automatically disclose their prior sexual activities are lying and deceiving and comparing it to lying about criminal and chemical addiction histories. 

Some religious orders may have a somewhat healthy view of sexuality assuming it is confined to within their specified boundaries, but there is no denying that countless peoples throughout the world have stigmatized and damaged sense of sexuality due to religious indoctrination and judgement.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

"grabs popcorn"


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I've been married >30 years, and I've never asked my wife about any relationships before me. She is with me know, and will be as long as we live. What happened before doesn't matter.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

There is no simple one-size-fits-all answer to the question of whether lies are necessarily destructive or sometimes necessary. It really depends upon the psyche of the person doing the lying. If they're lying out of their own sense of self-shame (which is different from being shamed by others), it can be incredibly destructive. Self-shaming can create a pattern of continuing to self-medicate by repeating the thing that is causing the shame. It can render someone incapable of learning or processing what went on and keep them from seeing it as a learning experience. If that is brought into a new relationship, if their partner has no idea what they are stepping into (which is essentially unfinished business that they'll never have a clue about), that lying can severely wreck the relationship down the road, because the self-shame will remain, but the way it manifests itself will be misattributed and addressed inappropriately.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I agree that people do generally want to be with others that share the same beliefs and values etc and I also agree that it is usually important and beneficial for couples to be of the same or at least similar value systems.
> 
> But most people that are of similar beliefs and value systems LIVE similar lifestyles and are in cultures and communities of similar beliefs and values.
> 
> ...


Within those communities and cultures there is a vast difference in how people behave sexually.


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