# Dominant vs Tender Husband: Balance?



## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Much of relationship advice online, in text, or from other sources is conflicting when it comes to being a good husband. Some sources claim that if you can fix your "Nice Guy" tendencies, you can improve your marriage. Other sources claim that if you show that you love your significant other more, that will also improve your relationship.

In my mind, I have problems consolidating the dominant husband and tender husbands into one. Too many of their personality traits seem mutually exclusive

For example, a dominant husband would have the charisma and personality to get his wife to have sex with him when wanted even if she was not in the mood for it. However, a tender husband or "nice guy" would accept her not being in the mood and put her needs first.

Another good example would be in communication. Many descriptions of dominant males portray them to have the "strong and silent" personalities. However, many other descriptions of a "good husband" is someone who speaks freely of his hopes, fears, and shows his love and loyalty verbally.

Where is the balance? Can a husband be both dominant and tender simultaneously? At what point should a husband put his own needs first rather than his wife's? Conversely, when does a husband put his wife's needs first before his own?


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

IMO, yes he can; my husband is nice to me! But he isn't rushing around the house doing all the housework and cooking, etc...I like to do those things 'for' him. He can best be described as tender, attentive, loving. Definitely not a 'treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen' kind of man. But strong enough of character to stop me, if say, I came out of our bedroom dressed like a tramp on my way out of the house for a GNO...which I do not do, BTW.

For the record, what is it that is so wrong with a husband being nice? That's why I married my husband. I already have an arsehole in my underpants; I don't need another one.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You do need a mix. No one articulates that better than Athol Kay on his Site and in his book mmsl. 

Does your wife fitness test you? 
Do you recognize it in the moment? 
Do you know when you have passed or failed? 

Have you ever taken your wife sexually? How did that go? 

How much of your marital communication is non verbal? How well do you read her 'non verbal', communication? How good are you at conveying non verbal?


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I think that's something they have to figure out on their own. My spouse is very dominant but he has recently been trying to be more sensative to my needs. Of course I'm not a doormat either. Just have to make that clear since some people jump to the wrong conclusion at times... lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> For the record, what is it that is so wrong with a husband being nice? That's why I married my husband. I already have an arsehole in my underpants; I don't need another one.


There's being nice and then there's being nice. The problem is, if you're too nice your wife ends up dominating the relationship and maybe even becoming subconsciously upset with you because you are not being dominant enough. On the other side, if you're not nice enough and too dominating that can be equally frustrating to them.

The point of this thread is an attempt to find where the balance lies. What is being too nice and giving up your masculinity? What is being too stern and being inconsiderate?


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> You do need a mix. No one articulates that better than Athol Kay on his Site and in his book mmsl.
> 
> Does your wife fitness test you? *Yes*
> Do you recognize it in the moment? *Most of the time*
> ...


I think I'm pretty good at picking up her nonverbal cues. I don't pay all that much attention to my own nonverbal communication - for me it just starts to happen.

I used to fall more into the "dominant" type with my wife; however, she's whittled away at me until I now am in some awkward place between a dominant male and a nice guy. Sex was much better previously, and now the quality and quantity are both dropping off on her end.

She's got me really confused on who I want to be, and what she wants me to be. Her messages are almost always conflicting.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Gaia said:


> I think that's something they have to figure out on their own. My spouse is very dominant but he has recently been trying to be more sensative to my needs. Of course I'm not a doormat either. Just have to make that clear since some people jump to the wrong conclusion at times... lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But where would you preferably like to have him? Can you personally say where you would like your husband balanced at?

I'm trying to figure this out, but I keep coming up with nothing that can solve some of the problems we currently have. I've seen many of the suggestions on here, but they seem so conflicting to me that I have no idea how to actually put them into play.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Aggie said:


> There's being nice and then there's being nice. The problem is, if you're too nice your wife ends up dominating the relationship and maybe even becoming subconsciously upset with you because you are not being dominant enough. On the other side, if you're not nice enough and too dominating that can be equally frustrating to them.
> 
> The point of this thread is an attempt to find where the balance lies. What is being too nice and giving up your masculinity? What is being too stern and being inconsiderate?


Nah, I don't dominate the relationship at all! I treat him like a man, but I don't go overboard on that either, as I am rather strong willled myself. He's not henpecked to death, and I'm not being beaten into submission, either. I like our balance...but I can see that it would be frustrating to have the weight, so to speak, more on one side of the scale than the other. Our balance just happened; not something either one of us particularly works at. We both have had prior relationships where that was a problem; he was living a life of quiet desperation with a controlling wife who wouldn't have sex and I was living with my own hell with a controlling, cold, selfish, miser. I think that for us, we both came into the relationship knowing we wouldn't put up with those personality traits ever again. We were in the right place at the right time and are a good fit. Really, I think it was a fluke, but I would like to make sure things stay balanced.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

To be blunt... I love him for who he is I would just prefer he shows a bit more appreciation when I do things for him(which he is now since learning my love language) and that he be a bit more romantic... aka writing me poems and such. Of course we both have a communication issue we are working on which is helping. I'm changing the way I express myself to him as well as trying to understand how he expresses himself. The five languages of love has really helped us and I plan to check out the his needs/ her needs as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Aggie said*: Where is the balance? Can a husband be both dominant and tender simultaneously? At what point should a husband put his own needs first rather than his wife's? Conversely, when does a husband put his wife's needs first before his own?



Read post #5 by Athol Kay - Men need a measure of BOTH.... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/23220-definitive-alpha-beta-thread.html

I do feel men are inclined one way or another , even us women are... some of us need to *UP* the Alpha...or depending, we may need to *UP* the BETA .

They are Both GOOD... and both very needed for balance....they are not pitted against each other. 

It is similar to our Temperements, every temperment has it's Weaknesses (the bad) and it's Strenghts (the good)....realizing where we are missing it ...and walking in it...this is our growth.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

You need to open up communication with your wife, and make sure there are no hidden resentments behind any anger or sarcasm that she uses.

If you used to be dominant, is she being passive agressive in trying to express her desires? Can she give you her opinion without you criticizing her? It would help if you provide some examples of interactions that you have.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Aggie said:


> She's got me really confused on who I want to be, and what she wants me to be. Her messages are almost always conflicting.


Who do you want to be? Why are you giving her the power to choose this for you?


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

lovesherman said:


> You need to open up communication with your wife, and make sure there are no hidden resentments behind any anger or sarcasm that she uses.
> 
> If you used to be dominant, is she being passive agressive in trying to express her desires? Can she give you her opinion without you criticizing her? It would help if you provide some examples of interactions that you have.


We have plenty of good, quality communication. We go on walks almost every night for at least 1 hour and talk about everything. When she's irritated with me, she does show anger and sarcasm. Most of the time, however, she's not irritated with me at all.

Yes, I used to be the dominant one in our relationship and she was mildly passive aggressive about it. Now the roles are all confusing and messed up. At times she's very confrontational and will try to clearly explain what she wants, but at other times she is passive aggressive about it. On my side, sometimes I'm confrontational and other times I let it go and appease her to not feel like I'm being a giant ****.

Here's a good example:

The other night we were about to go on a walk. She prefers the thermostat set high, and I prefer to set it low. I was hotter than usual (we live in Texas), so I turned the thermostat a little bit below what we normally set it at when we walk. She immediately set it higher than normal. I explain to her that I want it to be cooler in the house when we get back because I'm already starting off sweating, and she wants to save money on electricity (we don't have financial problems). We get into an argument about it and she stalks off, refuses to go on the walk, and starts taking a shower. I get pissed off and leave her alone.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

How about you find out what your wife needs OP? I have a feeling she wants you to be yourself... but she wants you to be attentive to her as well. Perhaps its a love language issue like with gate and I. Maybe your not speaking her love language and she isn't speaking yours so you both are comming to the wrong conclusion?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Aggie said:


> The other night we were about to go on a walk. She prefers the thermostat set high, and I prefer to set it low. I was hotter than usual (we live in Texas), so I turned the thermostat a little bit below what we normally set it at when we walk. She immediately set it higher than normal. I explain to her that I want it to be cooler in the house when we get back because I'm already starting off sweating, and she wants to save money on electricity (we don't have financial problems). We get into an argument about it and she stalks off, refuses to go on the walk, and starts taking a shower. I get pissed off and leave her alone.


Thanks; that's a good example. It sounds like she has a lot of resentment towards you, and is not willing to talk about it. Do you know what her issues might be?


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Who do you want to be? Why are you giving her the power to choose this for you?


It might sound kind of odd. Most men don't think of marriage and having babies when they are younger (at least that I have met), but it has always been something that I've wanted to do. I think one of my biggest goals in life is not to be top in a company, really religious, or be an awesome athlete, but rather to be a great husband and father.

She also wants to be a great wife and mother, so our goals really lined up. The thing is, though, it seems to me that she keeps changing her definition of a good husband. While I don't let her walk all over me, I still do want to fulfill what she wants too.

And that is why I am confused about how I should be behaving. If you took all of those pack hierarchy things, you could call me a nomad. I just can't tell what a good mix is between an alpha and beta.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Oh.... hmm problems comprimising.... did she feel you were too controlling before? Perhaps she is afraid you both will fall back into those roles... apparently she has some figuring out to do with herself and what she wants. My spouse would have turned the therm lower and jumped in the shower with me if that happened lol... then afterwards we would have went on the walk regardless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

lovesherman said:


> Thanks; that's a good example. It sounds like she has a lot of resentment towards you, and is not willing to talk about it. Do you know what her issues might be?


I honestly don't know why should would resent me. Like I said, we do talk about everything, even the sometimes uncomfortable and deeper stuff. I have asked her if there is anything else I could do to be a better husband, lover, etc. Invariably, she always tells me that I'm just fine, and I believe that she truly believes that way. However, her actions sometimes show otherwise, and they have been repeated too often for me to say they were flukes.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Aggie said:


> The thing is, though, it seems to me that she keeps changing her definition of a good husband. While I don't let her walk all over me, I still do want to fulfill what she wants too.


This called moving the goal post and it's unfair. You can't win when someone keeps changing the game on you.

Are you sure she even knows what she wants? She sounds angry to me and like she wants you to magically fix it for her.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Aggie:
Do you know what your wife's love language is, and what her emotional needs are? It sounds like neither of you are meeting each other's needs. Dig deeper, something is definitely bothering her. The incident with the thermostat suggests there is no sense of compromise, or interest in pleasing each other.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Oh.... hmm problems comprimising.... did she feel you were too controlling before? Perhaps she is afraid you both will fall back into those roles... apparently she has some figuring out to do with herself and what she wants. My spouse would have turned the therm lower and jumped in the shower with me if that happened lol... then afterwards we would have went on the walk regardless.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She never told me I was too mean, assertive, demanding or anything previously, so I was never given an indication that something was wrong. The way she has gone about things is to encourage me to do this or that, occasionally adding something I shouldn't do into the mix. After so long trying to make her happy, I've found that, at least in our marriage, she has changed how I behave. It wasn't so much a conscious choice as something that happened slowly and unnoticeably.

Now she seems happy and content, but our sex life is dropping and she's less willing to compromise with me.

Had I tried to jump in the shower with her, I know she would have brought the crazy on. She doesn't like being followed when she's in her "cooling off" mode.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

lovesherman said:


> Aggie:
> Do you know what your wife's love language is, and what her emotional needs are? It sounds like neither of you are meeting each other's needs. Dig deeper, something is definitely bothering her. The incident with the thermostat suggests there is no sense of compromise, or interest in pleasing each other.


Yes, both of us know each other's love language and have done all those quizzes, etc.

For me, I'm tied in first for physical touch and words of affirmation. I'm also tied in second for quality time and acts of service.

For her, her primary is quality time and secondary is acts of service.

I definitely go out of my way to do things for her love language, and she does with me too. She claims that she is happy, but then her sexual desire for me has been turned down and she's much less willing to compromise.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> This called moving the goal post and it's unfair. You can't win when someone keeps changing the game on you.
> 
> Are you sure she even knows what she wants? She sounds angry to me and like she wants you to magically fix it for her.


I haven't particularly found fairness to be a useful concept in marriage thus far when it comes to both of our problems.

I think she's verbally telling me to be more beta but nonverbally telling me to be more alpha. If I start being more alpha towards her she berates me for not being beta. If I start being more beta she'll still have sex with me and stuff, but her sexuality seems to just drop off. It kind of feels like I'm in a catch-22 and have no idea how to get out of it.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

My spouse says you give up to easy .... lol of course I have gotten a bit crazy with him as well when he has done stuff like that but it never stopped him. Of course we ended up... ehem.... in the shower... lol and to be honest ... even though I was irked... I was flattered as well. Sometimes I just think to myself.... "did he really have the galls to do that?" Lol




Have you ever read the five languages of love book? It might have something to do with that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Aggie said:


> Much of relationship advice online, in text, or from other sources is conflicting when it comes to being a good husband. Some sources claim that if you can fix your "Nice Guy" tendencies, you can improve your marriage. Other sources claim that if you show that you love your significant other more, that will also improve your relationship.
> 
> In my mind, I have problems consolidating the dominant husband and tender husbands into one. Too many of their personality traits seem mutually exclusive
> 
> ...


Yes he can.

For one thing many women want a more dominant man. So a nice guy needs to know that he is being very nice to his wife for meeting this need.

That said, a guy is total jerk if he insists on sex when his wife is not into it.

Nothing wrong with seducing your wife. So the key is that foreplay is not just perliminary sexual activity in bed. It is the interactions that the couple has that day and the days leading up to it.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Aggie said:


> I definitely go out of my way to do things for her love language, and she does with me too. She claims that she is happy, but then her sexual desire for me has been turned down and she's much less willing to compromise.


When she stops meeting your needs how do you respond? Do you keep meeting hers?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I wonder why you focus on dominant vs. tender?


To hold and maintain your wife’s interest you need to be quite a few different “types” of a male. Protector, provider, lover, romantic, nurse, leader, friend, confident, motivator, inspirer etc. etc. You're never going to be perfect at all the roles a man plays in his marriage, I was a bit of a jack of all trades, master of none type of thing.


And never ever become a doormat. I was a master at not being a doormat and was surprised when my wife tried it on on a few occasions. I never ever thought “dominant” and cannot understand why some people do. I’ve never wanted to dominate anybody unless it was to stop them doing me harm, somebody else harm or harming themselves. Assertive yes (no doormat am I), dominant no. Play dominant in the bedroom yes, dominate in the bedroom no.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

There we go... I agree with AFEH.... its more of being assertive... not dominate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Aggie said:


> There's being nice and then there's being nice. The problem is, if you're too nice your wife ends up dominating the relationship and maybe even becoming subconsciously upset with you because you are not being dominant enough. On the other side, if you're not nice enough and too dominating that can be equally frustrating to them.
> 
> The point of this thread is an attempt to find where the balance lies. What is being too nice and giving up your masculinity? What is being too stern and being inconsiderate?


I think the balance changes over time. In fact I think it is more of a pendulum. A moving target. I takes really being in tune in the relationship to stay in a good range.

Then there is the whole relationship history. Having children and careers. Sometimes men get compared to other men one way or another. 

Many men to improve their relationship assume they have to become more Beta. I am sure some do. They may not post here as much as others. It is somewhat counter intuitive though. men often do the things that drive their wives away instead of in the right direction it seems.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Gaia said:


> My spouse says you give up to easy .... lol of course I have gotten a bit crazy with him as well when he has done stuff like that but it never stopped him. Of course we ended up... ehem.... in the shower... lol and to be honest ... even though I was irked... I was flattered as well. Sometimes I just think to myself.... "did he really have the galls to do that?" Lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The last time I got into the shower with her when she was cooling off, she literally had a meltdown and went crazy. She got physical with me and had that crazed gleam in her eye. Pretty damn frightening to see that in someone generally passive.

I'm guessing those types of things may be one of those tests I've read about. When she gets physical about something, what do you think I should do? She and her Mom (her Mom was bipolar) used to get into those types of physical contests over small and stupid things. She's now brought that into our marriage, and I don't know if I should restrain her or leave. That's kind of a separate problem (happens very, very rarely).

At any rate, that is why I don't follow her into the shower when she's cooling off. I still haven't decided how I should act.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Mavash said *: Who do you want to be? Why are you giving her the power to choose this for you?


Yes, BE WHO YOU ARE, BE Real, don't downplay your needs, wants , desires before her, she will RESPECT this, if you want something, GO AFTER IT. 

In the "No More Mr nice Guy" Book, it talks about the Camouflage man, everywhere he goes, he fits in, but NOBODY really KNOWS him.. this is NO good. *BE You *. 

She may not like it sometimes if you go against her, but she will respect it. Yes, be assertive, show passion for what you enjoy & want in this life before others, this catches attraction. 

Be creative, surprise her once in a while -telling her you have something planned, Be romantic, Listen to her...Be affectionate, holding her after sex ....

Have you tried the *Love Busters Questionarre * ..... Love Busters Questionarre 

You both could fill these out honestly , hand them to each other to open the dialog....this can help you dig up any budding resentment started & where you both have been missing it with each other.



> *AFEH said *: To hold and maintain your wife’s interest you need to be quite a few different “types” of a male. Protector, provider, lover, romantic, nurse, leader, friend, confident, motivator, inspirer etc


 Love this !! :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

AFEH said:


> I wonder why you focus on dominant vs. tender?
> 
> 
> To hold and maintain your wife’s interest you need to be quite a few different “types” of a male. Protector, provider, lover, romantic, nurse, leader, friend, confident, motivator, inspirer etc. etc. You're never going to be perfect at all the roles a man plays in his marriage, I was a bit of a jack of all trades, master of none type of thing.
> ...


Then what are some examples of being assertive while not being dominant? I'm kind of lost on the semantics of it.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Well, something is going on with her. I would keep after her to talk to you about it. Tell her that you want to keep your marriage strong, and you can feel her pulling away from you. Ask her what she thinks a happy marriage looks like. You may get a clue about what her issues are.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

My husband is the very laid back easy going super nice guy(to me and the kids). I wouldn't want him to change for the world. I am not quite as patient as him, but never in a million years would I take advantage of him either. My husband and I work very hard putting our marriage first and communicate everything.

Neither one of us believe in being dominant towards one another. 

My ex h tried to be controlling and dominate, it was a bit on the obsessive side and did not work.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

lovesherman said:


> Well, something is going on with her. I would keep after her to talk to you about it. Tell her that you want to keep your marriage strong, and you can feel her pulling away from you. Ask her what she thinks a happy marriage looks like. You may get a clue about what her issues are.


Sigh, I have been trying to talk to her about it for weeks. She feels that our marriage is strong, and doesn't recognize some of the problems when I point them out.

Her picture of a perfect marriage is what her parents have. Her Dad is pretty damn close to the stereotypical "nice guy". I'm nice, but not _that_ nice. She probably wants me to be more like him, but if I do, many other areas of our marriage (which are more important to me) start dropping off.

Damn. Talking about this is getting me much more frustrated than I was to begin with.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Where did the thermostat end up that night? 
- Initial temp before you changed it?
- Higher temp she raised it to?
- Lower temp she set it to?

You were about to leave, when you return you can/do take a shower. You can take a cool/cold shower so that when you get out you are no longer hot. I am not saying she was right. Or that you are right. I am saying that in a way you "poked" her on this topic that the two of you disagree on. 

In the spirit of being resourceful: Get a portable fan. Put it where you wish as it gives you a good 5-10 degree local temperature drop. This is the "both win" scenario as a fan uses a tiny fraction the electricity that AC does. 

AFEH is right. More leadership and less petty squabbling. You tell her you are taking her out Friday night and she needs to be dressed nicely and ready by X oclock. Be fun and playful. If she fit tests you, tease her. Don't fight with her, tease her. Not in a mean way. For example, smiling "Keep that up and you will get a spanking later". 





Aggie said:


> We have plenty of good, quality communication. We go on walks almost every night for at least 1 hour and talk about everything. When she's irritated with me, she does show anger and sarcasm. Most of the time, however, she's not irritated with me at all.
> 
> Yes, I used to be the dominant one in our relationship and she was mildly passive aggressive about it. Now the roles are all confusing and messed up. At times she's very confrontational and will try to clearly explain what she wants, but at other times she is passive aggressive about it. On my side, sometimes I'm confrontational and other times I let it go and appease her to not feel like I'm being a giant ****.
> 
> ...


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Hmm has she ever been abused aggie? That sounds as if perhaps she was....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Aggie said:


> Then what are some examples of being assertive while not being dominant? I'm kind of lost on the semantics of it.


Being assertive involves communicating your wants, needs, preferences, feelings hopefully in a loving non-threatening way. Being dominant implies taking what you want or need because you can.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes, BE WHO YOU ARE, BE Real, don't downplay your needs, wants , desires before her, she will RESPECT this, if you want something, GO AFTER IT.
> 
> In the "No More Mr nice Guy" Book, it talks about the Camouflage man, everywhere he goes, he fits in, but NOBODY really KNOWS him.. this is NO good. *BE You *.


I don't feel like a "Camouflage man". I feel like a mix between a nice guy and a "distributed male" (I think that was the term). I'm nicer to my boss but more of an alpha with my subordinates and peers. I'm not trying to change who I am for validation, but choosing how to act in the most beneficial ways for myself. Everyone does this to different degrees, and I don't think I do it an abnormal amount.

And that _is who I am_. I fit into all and no categories. Yes there are some "Nice Guy" behaviors I have in that book, but I think everyone who has read that could see some of those things in themselves. That book only talks about reclaiming the masculine side of yourself, from what I can remember it doesn't say anything at all about how to have your masculinity _and_ be tender, loving, etc.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Aggie said:


> When she's irritated with me, she does show anger and sarcasm.


There's no excuse for this. It's a maturity/self-control issue. In my house we have a program to eliminate sarcasm and develop appropriate behavior when we are angry. This is our number one priority and supersedes all other behavior requests


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Ok my spouse said to take a look at old fashioned shows/movies. He said something about a bugsy? Not sure who the heck that is as I have never watched old shows lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Hmm has she ever been abused aggie? That sounds as if perhaps she was....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess I could consider that she has been physically abused by her Mom when she was a teenager. Her Mom is bipolar and refused medication for it for a few years. Apparently when they had minor disputes (such as that towel shouldn't go there but here) it mostly turned physical with her Mom. Her Mom would go grab the towel and my wife would put it back. It would soon turn into a physical power struggle for them.

My wife very, very rarely does this with me. In the entire time we've been together (7.5 years) I can probably only count 5 times. At any rate, I have no damn clue as to what to do. I am way stronger than her and don't want to hurt her, but I also don't want her to feel like she can bully me into doing what she wants sometimes. So because I have no clue what I'm doing, I usually just let her win when she gets like that. I know that it is probably reinforcing the behavior, but I'm not sure what the solution is.

Anyway, some of these power struggles like the example I gave earlier could turn into something like this if I didn't give up. Had I followed her into the shower the other night, this is probably what would have happened.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

MEMs idea is great... my spouse does exactly that... and if I keep it up he actually does follow through lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> There's no excuse for this. It's a maturity/self-control issue


She does apologize for it later, though, but that doesn't keep her from doing it again. I don't know how to take that. She knows what she is doing is wrong, but in the moment she doesn't care.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Gaia said:


> MEMs idea is great... my spouse does exactly that... and if I keep it up he actually does follow through lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What's "MEMs"?


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Ok I had issues with my mother getting physical as well as my father, step mother, ect. If she seems to be getting aggressive, stop her by saying... "hey... look... this is not how it is..." if she goes to hit you... you can grab her in a sort of hug and tell her in a firm tone to listen to you and let you explain. She obviously has a slightly warped view on things due to her mothers abuse so she may have a hard time understanding you during arguements. 


It sounds as if she is letting her emotions cloud her mind too much and therefore becomes unreasonable. You need to stand your ground... don't be aggressive but don't allow her to become aggressive either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Aggie said:


> Then what are some examples of being assertive while not being dominant? I'm kind of lost on the semantics of it.


For me to dominate a person means they are held in a vice like grip such that they cannot move an inch. They have no control over what they do. I take, have and maintain that control. Much like a policeman taking a villain into custody. I become dominant when I see people in danger. A few hooligans say going crazy in their in a car park at a beauty spot. I’m the guy that takes control, dominates and puts a stop to it.



Being assertive is totally different. It’s making clear what I expect out of something or other. It’s being willing to confront issues as opposed to avoiding them and hoping they’ll just go away. It’s telling someone “You don’t do that on my time.” It’s asserting your boundaries when someone is abusing you. It’s not being afraid to take the lead, to take responsibility and to take risks however they’re calculated.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Where did the thermostat end up that night?
> - Initial temp before you changed it?
> - Higher temp she raised it to?
> - Lower temp she set it to?
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Where did the thermostat end up that night?
> - Initial temp before you changed it?
> - Higher temp she raised it to?
> - Lower temp she set it to?
> ...


We set it to 75 when I'm in the house, but when we go for walks we usually set it to ~78. I turned it down to ~76, and then she retaliated by turning it to 85.

The thermostat isn't something we argue about - just that once. So a portable fan really doesn't matter all that much. And if she fitness tests me, I'm supposed to tease her? Sounds to me like a good-humored way of backing down every time. She might just get it into her head that if she acts like that and I back down in humor, she can get her way if she acts more like that.

I'm all for humor, but if she is fitness testing me, isn't that failing the test?


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

AFEH said:


> For me to dominate a person means they are held in a vice like grip such that they cannot move an inch. They have no control over what they do. I take, have and maintain that control. Much like a policeman taking a villain into custody. I become dominant when I see people in danger. A few hooligans say going crazy in their in a car park at a beauty spot. I’m the guy that takes control, dominates and puts a stop to it.
> 
> 
> 
> Being assertive is totally different. It’s making clear what I expect out of something or other. It’s being willing to confront issues as opposed to avoiding them and hoping they’ll just go away. It’s telling someone “You don’t do that on my time.” It’s asserting your boundaries when someone is abusing you. It’s not being afraid to take the lead, to take responsibility and to take risks however they’re calculated.


All right, but how can being assertive help me? My behavior during confrontations are more assertive, but what do you do when she is upset and doesn't give a damn what I 'expect' from her?


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Your not backing down if you follow through with slapping her on the rear now are you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Your not backing down if you follow through with slapping her on the rear now are you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't... know.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Do you think that she could be bipolar like her mother? If she has extreme emotional swings, she may need medication and therapy to control this.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

lovesherman said:


> Do you think that she could be bipolar like her mother? If she has extreme emotional swings, she may need medication and therapy to control this.


Her sister is, but I don't think my wife is (~98% sure). I never consider her being bipolar until we have some really bad fights, which is rare. And then I think about how this doesn't happen all that often and that if she were bipolar, it would.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Didn't read all the responses, just wanted to make a comment.

One thing I have learned is that you should not listen to women about what women want. This is because most women THINK they want something that they really don't. Very few women (this board being the exception), will be open and honest about wanting to be lead in a relationship. They will talk endlessly about how they want a sensitive man that can cry on their shoulder and clean the house for them and watch chick flicks together.

And then those same girls go out and bang biker dudes at bars and complain about chivalry being dead.

If your wife is trying to "wear you down", but she responded more positively when you took a more assertive role, don't believe a damn word she says about what she wants. From what I've seen, girls have a biological instinct to test out men.

If you've ever seen a pack of wolves in the wild, the males are always challenging the Alpha male, as soon as they sense that he lost his edge they will challenge him to lead the pack. I think women do the same thing generally. They will constantly test you to see what you're made of. As soon as they sense that you're losing your edge, they'll grow tired of you and go off and seek a better mate. I read somewhere recently that women aren't monogamous and they aren't *****s, they are just wired to be with the BEST mate they can be with at any given time.

So don't let her wear you down. Don't lose your balls.... Figure out what she's doing to wear you down and figure out a way to deflect it so you can remain calm, confident, and assertive.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

COguy said:


> Didn't read all the responses, just wanted to make a comment.
> 
> One thing I have learned is that you should not listen to women about what women want. This is because most women THINK they want something that they really don't. Very few women (this board being the exception), will be open and honest about wanting to be lead in a relationship. They will talk endlessly about how they want a sensitive man that can cry on their shoulder and clean the house for them and watch chick flicks together.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I kind of see that she might be acting like this. It's just problematic when one part her responds positively to something and another part of her responds negatively to the same thing - Thus why I'm trying to figure out a balance.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Ok I disagree with parts of that post COguy. I don't believe women are incapable of being monogamous just as I don't believe males are incapable of it either. An alpha male might be challenged in a pack by other males .. sure but his mate won't be sitting on the sidelines. There is an alpha male and alpha female and both get challenged from time to time. Wolves mate for life ... rarely does one ever take another mate... not from what I have seen. The only time they do is if their previous has died. Sometimes not even then. 


I don't think she is trying to test you aggie... I just think she is confused and as stated earlier... has a slightly warped pov. She needs you to remain firm and help guide her to see things in a different light then she sees them now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

And don't disregard all womens advice on what women want.. sometimes women know better then men what women want. As stated over and over in this thread... remain firm and don't back down. She needs you to help her understand better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Aggie said:


> All right, but how can being assertive help me? My behavior during confrontations are more assertive, but what do you do when she is upset and doesn't give a damn what I 'expect' from her?


I didn’t say that being assertive (or dominant) can help you in your particular situation.

What I think you need to be more than anything in your current situation is the Consultative and Inspirational Leader and to be that you need a vision of where you want your marriage to be in say 3 or 6 months or in a years time. If you cannot envision it and articulate it in some way or another, you cannot lead and inspire your wife to get there. Of course the consultative part is to understand where your wife wants your marriage to be in say 6 months time. If you cannot agree on the same vision, you haven’t a hope in hell!

Personally I think your wife is just being bloody minded and looking for a fight. She did shet test you with the temperature. You can handle shet tests in all sorts of ways but the very wrong way is to shet test in return because that just escalates things.

As MEM says humour is the very best way but it does take mindfulness, control of your emotions and practice. I obviously haven’t a clue what your relationship is like, but I knew I’d cracked it when I was chasing my wife round the house to put her over my knee and smack her bum.

But you will fail many shet tests in your marriage. It is a fact of life, married life. The thing is to not respond to them in habitual ways. The biggest mistake of all, I think, is to respond to them in an emotional way. Sure, you will be wounded and hurt, it happens. You (reckon we’ve all been there) need to get above your emotions because they make you blind and cloud your judgement.

You get away from your emotions by getting away from your ego mind consciousness and into your observer consciousness. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Awareness-A...5192/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346613803&sr=8-1 will teach you how.

There’s also something I think on now as AwarenessPlus. This is Mindfulness. Awareness is passive, as a disconnected observer. With Mindfulness you are being more active, but within your mind. It’s like “Well, I know if I do this, that will happen. So what do I do to get a different result?”.

Hope that makes some kind of sense to you. Mindfulness is a seriously good thing to get into (it’s Eastern) and the lessons learned will change you and last you a lifetime.




If you haven’t already have a read of http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hold-Your-N...4400/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1346613764&sr=8-3. I find even now at the age of 63 I’m just redefining my boundaries to help me focus on what I do for this latter part of my life, what’s important to me type of thing.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Gaia said:


> I don't think she is trying to test you aggie... I just think she is confused and as stated earlier... has a slightly warped pov. She needs you to remain firm and help guide her to see things in a different light then she sees them now.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think she's _trying_ to test me either, but she does it anyway. I'm thinking she does has a warped point of view, but I don't know how to "remain firm and help guide her" when she brings the crazy out.

I'm not sure, although, if these tests are what is contributing to her attraction to me, or if I'm just being too nice. I think I'm more informed yet more confused for posting this.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Lol AFEH... I can just picture that too... someone chasing their wife around ... lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rj700 (Jun 22, 2012)

Aggie said:


> Her Mom would go grab the towel and my wife would put it back. It would soon turn into a physical power struggle for them.
> 
> My wife very, very rarely does this with me. In the entire time we've been together (7.5 years) I can probably only count 5 times. .....
> Anyway, some of these power struggles like the example I gave earlier could turn into something like this if I didn't give up. Had I followed her into the shower the other night, this is probably what would have happened.


I think this is still not normal. If I'm reading this correctly, if you continue the argument, it is likely to become physical. But it doesn't cause you know when to back off. For comparison, I've been with my W 20 years. It has only turned physical twice - once by me, once by her. Both times the other walked away and we agreed immediately after that would never happen again.

Since we have only one specific, let me focus on that too:


> We set it to 75 when I'm in the house, but when we go for walks we usually set it to ~78. I turned it down to ~76, and then she retaliated by turning it to 85.


So why did you change your behavior? (usually 78, this time 76). She then over-reacted, but you created the trigger. This all seems minor and should be insignificant. No way it should result in full blown argument.

Have you done or considered counselling?


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Ok what gate does when I misunderstand him is... he will either respond with humor and follow through or ... he repeatedly tells me to listen.... because sometimes I misunderstand him and tend to let emotion take over so he has to snap me out of that. So perhaps your wife needs you to snap her out of that state as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I agree with rj.... counseling perhaps?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

She sounds very passive aggressive to me, Aggie. I would make an appointment for counseling to determine why she keeps insisting that there is nothing wrong, when obviously there is. A good counselor can help determine what is going on with her, while we can only guess what her issues are. You can't resolve this by being more dominant or nicer. She has to figure out why she won't open up and be honest with you.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

And entropy is right as well... lol some women expect their man to be mind readers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Gaia said:


> There we go... I agree with AFEH.... its more of being assertive... not dominate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes I agree. There is a diiferent connotation here. 

Assertive is the more positive.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Gaia said:


> Lol AFEH... I can just picture that too... someone chasing their wife around ... lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She definitely wanted to be caught, it was the giggling as I chased her and the way she struggled when she let me catch her (I know these things!) that let me know.

I think most women know when they're playing their man. And they want a man who knows these things and handles them in the right way.

I've a good buddy who I was sat with as he and his wife hosted a bbq. She was walking across the garden and he called out something like "Nice bunnies but can't you hold them in, everyone can see them". He knew full well she'd dressed the way she did and walked the way she walked in full consciousness. She turned and gave him this wonderfully knowing look. If he'd got hurt, angry and annoyed the result would have been totally different.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Aggie said:


> The last time I got into the shower with her when she was cooling off, she literally had a meltdown and went crazy. She got physical with me and had that crazed gleam in her eye. Pretty damn frightening to see that in someone generally passive.
> 
> I'm guessing those types of things may be one of those tests I've read about. When she gets physical about something, what do you think I should do? She and her Mom (her Mom was bipolar) used to get into those types of physical contests over small and stupid things. She's now brought that into our marriage, and I don't know if I should restrain her or leave. That's kind of a separate problem (happens very, very rarely).
> 
> At any rate, that is why I don't follow her into the shower when she's cooling off. I still haven't decided how I should act.


I often either get into the shower with my wife and start by scrubbing her back. She loves this. But when I am otherwise to engaged, I will taken a few minutes and reach in to the shower to do this. My behavior has become enough of a routine that it is not a shocker. 

I think taking showers together is .... freaking awesome.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

rj700 said:


> I think this is still not normal. If I'm reading this correctly, if you continue the argument, it is likely to become physical. But it doesn't cause you know when to back off. For comparison, I've been with my W 20 years. It has only turned physical twice - once by me, once by her. Both times the other walked away and we agreed immediately after that would never happen again.
> 
> Since we have only one specific, let me focus on that too:
> 
> ...


I explained to her that I wanted the house to be a little cooler when I got back because I was starting the walk off already hotter than hell. I knew by the time I got back, it being over 90 outside, I would be even that much hotter. I did all of this explaining right before I changed the thermostat. She completely disregarded what I said, turned the thermostat to what she wanted (which was higher than normal), and then started walking away without a word.

At that point, I had a choice to either let her have her way, to change it to the normal setting, or to change it to what I wanted. I decided it wasn't worth it and changed it to the normal setting. She then decided to change it back to much higher than normal.

During this entire time, it was pretty damn frustrating for me. I let her do things her way because it makes her happy many times, and one of the times I want it my way, she completely disregards and disrespects me by not just saying no, but by going past what we previously agreed on. And in all of this, she didn't verbally disagree with me - she just did it.

When I started asking her why she was doing what she was, she got defensive, angry and sarcastic. I can't completely remember what I said, but it was probably among the lines of "you're being ridiculous" (I don't cuss at my wife or name call 99% of the time). That's when she said she didn't want to go on a walk because I was being too negative, and then went to take a shower. Previous experience told me not to follow her and try to resolve it because then she would interpret as breaking one of her barriers and fly off the handle.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> I often either get into the shower with my wife and start by scrubbing her back. She loves this. But when I am otherwise to engaged, I will taken a few minutes and reach in to the shower to do this. My behavior has become enough of a routine that it is not a shocker.
> 
> I think taking showers together is .... freaking awesome.


When I say "cooling-off" I mean emotionally - not the physical temperature.

We take showers together all the time, and it is pretty awesome


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Gaia said:


> So perhaps your wife needs you to snap her out of that state as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Something I used to be able to do, and now can't seem to figure out how to do it. The same things stop working after a while.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Gaia said:


> I agree with rj.... counseling perhaps?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sigh..

That would be nearly impossible. She's all for working on our relationship together, but actually trying to get her to go see a counselor would be... extremely difficult and painful.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Aggie said:


> I explained to her that I wanted the house to be a little cooler when I got back because I was starting the walk off already hotter than hell. I knew by the time I got back, it being over 90 outside, I would be even that much hotter. I did all of this explaining right before I changed the thermostat. She completely disregarded what I said, turned the thermostat to what she wanted (which was higher than normal), and then started walking away without a word.
> 
> At that point, I had a choice to either let her have her way, to change it to the normal setting, or to change it to what I wanted. I decided it wasn't worth it and changed it to the normal setting. She then decided to change it back to much higher than normal.
> 
> ...


I think lesson #01 for married men is "They don't fight fair".

Lesson #02 for the married man is "You will never ever win a conflict".


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

AFEH said:


> Lesson #02 for the married man is "You will never ever win a conflict".


How does that play into "fitness testing"? I thought the point was to win and pass the test.

Not all of our arguments are fitness testing, mind you. Just some of them.


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## Santa (May 31, 2012)

balance, balance, and balance... its the hardest part and the key. 

Did I say balance yet?


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Santa said:


> balance, balance, and balance... its the hardest part and the key.
> 
> Did I say balance yet?


Yeah, I've got that there needs to be a balance... Any tips on how to actually do it?


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Ok perhaps you should stop thinking of it as who can one up who.... or winning. She is probably picking up on this and therefore everything has become a battle... all about whose in control. It shouldn't be about that... it should be about respect. Have you ever asked her why she seems hellbent on not showing you some respect? Ask her why she feels she needs to be in control? Perhaps if you called her on that it might get her thinking about things more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

I think I'm going to go have a beer, ponder about this thread a bit, and then pretend there's nothing wrong until tomorrow.

Thanks everyone for your input - I really appreciate it.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Good luck aggie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Aggie said:


> How does that play into "fitness testing"? I thought the point was to win and pass the test.
> 
> Not all of our arguments are fitness testing, mind you. Just some of them.


If you look to “win” you will lose. It’s a fact of life. If you look to win, your wife will ensure you lose, they are exceedingly good at doing that and started learning how from the age of about four years old. It’s not about winning and losing, you walk the wrong path with that one. Sometimes it’s not even about win/win because your wife may well not want that particular outcome.



For me there’s a difference between fitness testing and shet testing. Fitness testing is about choosing a mate for life and at times when married it’s about fitness testing to see if you want to stay married to them or not. Lets say you have a vision of where you want your marriage to be and within that vision there are things you will neither compromise or sacrifice. Your wife doesn’t want the same things? Well then she failed your fitness test(s).



Shet tests are basically when your wife is being a PITA, like with the temperature. They can be a PITA for all sorts of reasons, sometimes it’s even “Just because”. She could have just let it go and gone for a walk with you. She didn’t. You don’t fight her shet test in order to win the battle of the temperature. Rather you pick your ball up and go play on a different playing field, preferably the field of humour and laughter. It’s for her to join you if she wants.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Aggie said:


> We have plenty of good, quality communication. We go on walks almost every night for at least 1 hour and talk about everything. When she's irritated with me, she does show anger and sarcasm. Most of the time, however, she's not irritated with me at all.
> 
> Yes, I used to be the dominant one in our relationship and she was mildly passive aggressive about it. Now the roles are all confusing and messed up. At times she's very confrontational and will try to clearly explain what she wants, but at other times she is passive aggressive about it. On my side, sometimes I'm confrontational and other times I let it go and appease her to not feel like I'm being a giant ****.
> 
> ...


This is ridiculous and immature on your wife's part, and when she behaves this way (like a spoiled child, not getting her way) you should simply ignore her and go on your walk or do whatever it is you were going to do anyway. 180 it on her! In this case, she got what she wanted, which was to piss you off as payback for pissing her off in the first place. 

I remember being about 15, and always angry at my stepfather for this or for that. I'd be all pissed off, scowling, mad...he'd be sitting there with a big smile on his face, igoring me, going about his day. Didnt take long before I realized that I was the only one sitting there being mad about nothing. Didn't affect him in the least. Maybe this is what wifey needs to see from you.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

My fiance has the balance perfect. 

He is dominant yet also very caring. He pays me a lot of attention and tells me beautiful sweet things, yet he also can be extremely dominant and is not shy when it comes to being sexual, and sex talk etc.

He also is not a pushover.

I agree with the balance part, women want to feel loved, safe and secure, like no other woman compares to them, and that their man has rock solid values and is able to lead the way, yet also can be tender, thoughtful and loving.

Simple really


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Aggie said:


> I guess I could consider that she has been physically abused by her Mom when she was a teenager. Her Mom is bipolar and refused medication for it for a few years. Apparently when they had minor disputes (such as that towel shouldn't go there but here) it mostly turned physical with her Mom.


You just casually mentioned this and unless she's had therapy to deal with it....its 'possible' you're dealing with someone with unresolved issues from her past. 

It would explain her moving the goals on you. She sets you up to fail then has a reason to get angry at you. But she's not really mad at you it's her mom.

It's complicated.


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## rj700 (Jun 22, 2012)

Aggie said:


> Sigh..
> That would be nearly impossible. She's all for working on our relationship together, but actually trying to get her to go see a counselor would be... extremely difficult and painful.


So what you are going through now is not extremely difficult and painful? The difference is you're not making any progress as is, in fact, you seem to indicate it is just getting worse. At least with MC, you might make some headway.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> My fiance has the balance perfect.
> 
> He is dominant yet also very caring. He pays me a lot of attention and tells me beautiful sweet things, yet he also can be extremely dominant and is not shy when it comes to being sexual, and sex talk etc.
> 
> ...


Fiance's don't count. Come back after at least 2 years 

I know women _want_ everything (the simple part), but that is unrealistic and impossible. What I'm trying to figure out is what subset of _everything_ does she consider the most important (the not simple part).


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Just to try to make everything more clear again, this is what I think was covered yesterday. My 1 problem has now split into 3. Yay.


1. The original balance of dominant vs tender (or whatever words you want to use to be more politically correct). If you look up Athol Kay's website, this is also called Alpha vs Beta traits. I still don't think I've made very much progress on this. I know that she wants some of both, but her messages are mixed. Really confusing 

2. Minor confrontations that are much worse than they should be. I gave an example previously in the thread. Thus far it seems like everyone is saying I should somehow disarm her or turn the problem away. I think I may have been going about it with a "I need to win this" attitude.

3. The rare (1-2 times per year) times she turns the "crazy" on during arguments and decides to get physical with me. I still have no clue how I am supposed to handle her when she gets that way.


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## glen55 (Sep 13, 2012)

Aggie said:


> Much of relationship advice online, in text, or from other sources is conflicting when it comes to being a good husband. Some sources claim that if you can fix your "Nice Guy" tendencies, you can improve your marriage. Other sources claim that if you show that you love your significant other more, that will also improve your relationship.
> 
> In my mind, I have problems consolidating the dominant husband and tender husbands into one. Too many of their personality traits seem mutually exclusive
> 
> ...


Dominant means to dominate nothing else. Being assertive and self empowered is something completely different. No woman wants a Sir Nancealot either. My view do some more learning and find ways for you to be the man every woman would want to be with. But here's a tip. You have to be that way in every facet of your life. Chances are you will flick a switch in her you never expected.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

rj700 said:


> So what you are going through now is not extremely difficult and painful? The difference is you're not making any progress as is, in fact, you seem to indicate it is just getting worse. At least with MC, you might make some headway.


Some of it is getting worse. Problems #1 and #2 are very slowly getting worse, but are tolerable right now. I just don't want to find them intolerable 1-2 years down the road.

Problem #3 has been steady. I still have no clue as to what I'm supposed to do when she gets physical with me.

So overall it isn't extremely difficult and painful. I think trying to drag her to marriage counseling right now would make matters worse. She thinks marriage counseling is for utterly broken marriages. I don't want her thinking that's my POV or her changing her own POV to that. If she did, I'm guessing our marriage would _actually_ get worse because that is what her perception would be.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

glen55 said:


> Dominant means to dominate nothing else. Being assertive and self empowered is something completely different. No woman wants a Sir Nancealot either. My view do some more learning and find ways for you to be the man every woman would want to be with. But here's a tip. You have to be that way in every facet of your life. Chances are you will flick a switch in her you never expected.


So you think I should be going for the more generic things then? I have an idea of what women in general want, but my wife acts like that is drastically different from what she wants.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> You just casually mentioned this and unless she's had therapy to deal with it....its 'possible' you're dealing with someone with unresolved issues from her past.
> 
> It would explain her moving the goals on you. She sets you up to fail then has a reason to get angry at you. But she's not really mad at you it's her mom.
> 
> It's complicated.


Her and her Mom get along great now. Her Mom knew what she did was wrong and her and my wife have had a reconciliation. They both know it was wrong, but my wife has forgiven her Mom for it. I know that it still leaves some scars, but I think it is probably as good as it will ever get.

I'm almost thinking she's moving goals on me because she doesn't know what she wants. She _thinks_ she wants a beta male - caring, nurturing, good father, etc. without any alpha male traits. However, I think she also needs me to show some of my more alpha male traits. I'm just not sure what a good balance is.

I'm good at doing both as the situation demands, but I'm not sure what the situation demands with us. It's much easier at work and in other social settings...


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

AFEH said:


> If you look to “win” you will lose.
> 
> For me there’s a difference between fitness testing and shet testing. Fitness testing is about choosing a mate for life and at times when married it’s about fitness testing to see if you want to stay married to them or not.
> 
> Shet tests are basically when your wife is being a PITA, like with the temperature. They can be a PITA for all sorts of reasons, sometimes it’s even “Just because”. She could have just let it go and gone for a walk with you. She didn’t. You don’t fight her shet test in order to win the battle of the temperature. Rather you pick your ball up and go play on a different playing field, preferably the field of humour and laughter. It’s for her to join you if she wants.


That actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks 

Although I do have one question. I have certain boundaries that she absolutely loves to test on occasion. These are the things I will not budge on. Now if I take her pushing against those as "shet" testing, should I still just try to diffuse the tension? If I let her cross my boundaries and don't let her know that it isn't acceptable, wouldn't she just see that as weakness on my part?


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Gaia said:


> ...
> Have you ever asked her why she seems hellbent on not showing you some respect? Ask her why she feels she needs to be in control? Perhaps if you called her on that it might get her thinking about things more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In these situations I have. It seems to me that her anger is justification for just about anything. She will apologize about being disrespectful later when cooled off, but she'll do it over and over. I'm not sure how to set the boundary on what is acceptable for her displays of anger. It seems like me attempting to make and communicate a new boundary would just push her to try and break it even more.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> I remember being about 15, and always angry at my stepfather for this or for that. I'd be all pissed off, scowling, mad...he'd be sitting there with a big smile on his face, igoring me, going about his day. Didnt take long before I realized that I was the only one sitting there being mad about nothing. Didn't affect him in the least. Maybe this is what wifey needs to see from you.


Her anger does affect me, though. It's not just her being angry, it is how she shows it. If she's angry and I'm watching TV she might feel justified in walking up and turning off the TV. If I'm on my laptop, she'll unplug our router. This isn't all of the time or anything, but if I piss her off enough there is no line that she will not cross.

I know it's immature and manipulative. I think she knows it too, but only after the fact. She'll apologize for her behavior, but I think she justifies it to herself with her anger. And then it happens again. She's very strong-willed, and I love that about her, but I don't know how to act when she's acting like a teenager. I can't ground her, take things away from her, etc. I'm just not sure.

Actually, there have been a few times where I've been tempted to tell her "You act like a child, you get treated like a child. No internet for a week!" Probably not the best idea, but satisfying to think about.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Aggie said:


> Her and her Mom get along great now. Her Mom knew what she did was wrong and her and my wife have had a reconciliation. They both know it was wrong, but my wife has forgiven her Mom for it. I know that it still leaves some scars, but I think it is probably as good as it will ever get.
> 
> I'm almost thinking she's moving goals on me because she doesn't know what she wants. She _thinks_ she wants a beta male - caring, nurturing, good father, etc. without any alpha male traits. However, I think she also needs me to show some of my more alpha male traits. I'm just not sure what a good balance is.
> 
> I'm good at doing both as the situation demands, but I'm not sure what the situation demands with us. It's much easier at work and in other social settings...


When you and your wife are getting into these spats, you are (unintentionally) triggering her. Me and my mother had the same type of relationship. My mom is not bi-polar though, she had narcissistic, histrionic traits and my dad was an alcoholic. 

So these aren't fitness tests, nor is it about being alpha or beta. As soon as a power struggle happens (the temperature setting), she is triggered, then sees you in the same light that she saw her mom and thus she shuts down and digs in her heals. 

I go through this with my husband all the time, with me being the one that is triggered. He has to remind me several times that when he is telling me something, that he is not attacking me, nor is it a power struggle with him, because we are both on the 'same' side. My husband has his own triggers, that I help him deal with due to his childhood. 

When a child grows up with parents who have mental illnesses, we get what is called "FLEAS" which means that we have many of those traits because that is all that was taught to us. Child abuse is an example of a FLEA. Although a person who is abused when they are children, and they know abuse is wrong, if they are triggered, they will more than likely abuse their own children until they face the issue of their own abuse or get counseling. This is why child abuse continues to happen unless the cycle is broken. 

Also, as far as women not knowing what they want, it is because women were not allowed to say what they wanted for so long because they were thought of as second class citizens. In most religious societies, they were treated like children and children were told to be seen and not heard.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Aggie said:


> Her anger does affect me, though. It's not just her being angry, it is how she shows it. If she's angry and I'm watching TV she might feel justified in walking up and turning off the TV. If I'm on my laptop, she'll unplug our router. This isn't all of the time or anything, but if I piss her off enough there is no line that she will not cross.
> 
> I know it's immature and manipulative. I think she knows it too, but only after the fact. She'll apologize for her behavior, but I think she justifies it to herself with her anger. And then it happens again. She's very strong-willed, and I love that about her, but I don't know how to act when she's acting like a teenager. I can't ground her, take things away from her, etc. I'm just not sure.
> 
> Actually, there have been a few times where I've been tempted to tell her "You act like a child, you get treated like a child. No internet for a week!" Probably not the best idea, but satisfying to think about.


More than likely, she feels that you are the one being manipulative because she cannot see past what she thinks and once she is triggered, her thinking pattern is automatically set to auto-pilot which is fight/flight. 

The reason that she "acts like a child" is most likely from arrested development. A person will revert back to when the abuse started, because that is when they stopped developing normally. So emotionally, she might be a small child.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

anony2 said:


> More than likely, she feels that you are the one being manipulative because she cannot see past what she thinks and once she is triggered, her thinking pattern is automatically set to auto-pilot which is fight/flight.
> 
> The reason that she "acts like a child" is most likely from arrested development. A person will revert back to when the abuse started, because that is when they stopped developing normally. So emotionally, she might be a small child.


Well, she can't see past her point of view when she's very pissed off. Although, I know that I do the same thing. It's hard to be empathetic when your about to pop a blood vessel in your neck. So should I back down when she does this? Should I try to diffuse the tension? Should I let it be known that her behavior is unnacceptable? I'm not sure what the best course of action is when she gets like this.

The only emotional problems I see from her is when this happens. There's been nothing to indicate arrested development, and I know what it is like. Both my bio father and mother are forever emotionally teenagers.


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## TheCrunch (Sep 3, 2012)

AFEH said:


> I think lesson #01 for married men is "They don't fight fair".
> 
> Lesson #02 for the married man is "You will never ever win a conflict".


In a long term relationship it's often the case couples need to learn to fight fair. There need to be ground rules to stop resentment mounting, coz resentment is a huge threat to any relationship.

How to Argue Effectively - the "DO" list


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Aggie said:


> Well, she can't see past her point of view when she's very pissed off. Although, I know that I do the same thing. It's hard to be empathetic when your about to pop a blood vessel in your neck. So should I back down when she does this? Should I try to diffuse the tension? Should I let it be known that her behavior is unnacceptable? I'm not sure what the best course of action is when she gets like this.
> 
> The only emotional problems I see from her is when this happens. There's been nothing to indicate arrested development, and I know what it is like. Both my bio father and mother are forever emotionally teenagers.


No, you don't back down, yes, you do diffuse it by compromising, for instance, like stated earlier, a fan for you. Yes, you should let her know that her behavior is unacceptable but do not do it when she is triggered, do it at a later time when she is thinking clearly.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Aggie, forget about sh!t tests...your wife is not sh!t testing you, she's downright abusive. You said yourself she gets physical with you on occasion. That will only get worse. And walking into the room while you're watching TV and turning it off? That's just mental. She's challenging you on a much more agressive level than the so called sh!t test, which can better be described to you as a "Do these pants make my ass look fat?" question...The fact that she's getting physical points out that she loses control of herself; and that's scary. That's when stupid stuff happens.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> Aggie, forget about sh!t tests...your wife is not sh!t testing you, she's downright abusive. You said yourself she gets physical with you on occasion. That will only get worse. And walking into the room while you're watching TV and turning it off? That's just mental. She's challenging you on a much more agressive level than the so called sh!t test, which can better be described to you as a "Do these pants make my ass look fat?" question...The fact that she's getting physical points out that she loses control of herself; and that's scary. That's when stupid stuff happens.


Like I said, she only gets physical with me maybe once or twice a year. I know what will cause her to freak out, so I generally just don't do it. Even if she does get pissed off to that point, she doesn't ever actually hurt me. It is more of the fact that she is actually doing it that stuns me. She doesn't punch or kick, she just more tries to wrestle me away from whatever she has setup as her safe zone.

In my mind, there are two separate problems. There is one problem where she gets confrontational with me and acts like a teenager, and then there is the other one where she gets physical with me maybe once or twice a year. I feel that the first problem is the larger one, but the second one is a problem too because I don't know what to do about it.

I could easily restrain her or otherwise defend myself, but I'm programmed so strongly not to do so, I just freeze up. I'm also really afraid that someday she'll do something physical with me and, before I can even recognize it, I'll reflexively throw a punch, which could really, really hurt her.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Aggie said:


> That actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks
> 
> Although I do have one question. I have certain boundaries that she absolutely loves to test on occasion. These are the things I will not budge on. Now if I take her pushing against those as "shet" testing, should I still just try to diffuse the tension? If I let her cross my boundaries and don't let her know that it isn't acceptable, wouldn't she just see that as weakness on my part?


Boundaries are quite complex things. But basically in essence if you’ve asserted a boundary of intolerance (behaviour you will not tolerate from your wife) and your wife crosses it then she’s abusing you. Crossing a “known” boundary of intolerance is the ultimate demonstration of disrespect for another person, who that person is in the deepest part of them.

For me crossing a boundary of intolerance is quite an aggressive and violent thing. Just as we have physical boundaries (for most of us these extend from one to three or four feet from our body) we also have psychological and emotional boundaries. Whereas our physical boundaries are there to protect us from physical harm, bruises, cuts, broken bones etc. our personal boundaries are there to protect us from psychological and emotional abuse.

So if your wife is ignoring your personal boundaries of intolerance then she is abusing you. What do you do about it? Well your boundaries are totally ineffective if there is no penalty for your wife crossing them. If there isn’t a penalty then you may just as well be boundary less and therefore defenceless in the face of her abuse.


I left my wife because she refused to respect my boundaries of intolerance. This normally occurs because of a massive clash in value systems when neither partner is prepared to compromise or sacrifice their own values. I’ve never regretted it but my situation is not yours. 


You should do some reading up on boundaries in marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Aggie said:


> Much of relationship advice online, in text, or from other sources is conflicting when it comes to being a good husband. Some sources claim that if you can fix your "Nice Guy" tendencies, you can improve your marriage. Other sources claim that if you show that you love your significant other more, that will also improve your relationship.
> 
> In my mind, I have problems consolidating the dominant husband and tender husbands into one. Too many of their personality traits seem mutually exclusive
> 
> For example, a dominant husband would have the charisma and personality to get his wife to have sex with him when wanted even if she was not in the mood for it. However, a tender husband or "nice guy" would accept her not being in the mood and put her needs first.


Even a 'dominant' husband has to accept that sometimes his wife will not want to have sex. A man who never, ever listens to his wife's concerns, needs, is a cad.

There is a balance that has to be found.



Aggie said:


> Another good example would be in communication. Many descriptions of dominant males portray them to have the "strong and silent" personalities. However, many other descriptions of a "good husband" is someone who speaks freely of his hopes, fears, and shows his love and loyalty verbally.
> 
> Where is the balance? Can a husband be both dominant and tender simultaneously? At what point should a husband put his own needs first rather than his wife's? Conversely, when does a husband put his wife's needs first before his own?


The use of the word 'dominant' here is disturbing. I don't think that a strong man has to dominant. Not being 'Mr Nice Guy' is not the same as being dominant.

Dominant means basically controlling your wife. Not good.

"No more Mr Nice Guy" means setting your own boundaries, being assertive but at the same time being loving/caring.

Maybe you could come up with some situations that show how you are confused and people here can help you come up with the "no more mr nice guy" way of handling them.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Aggie said:


> Her and her Mom get along great now. Her Mom knew what she did was wrong and her and my wife have had a reconciliation. They both know it was wrong, but my wife has forgiven her Mom for it. I know that it still leaves some scars, but I think it is probably as good as it will ever get.


With all due respect, I really don't think so. This is the 600lb gorilla running around in the room while you try to explain it in terms of yourself with all the alpha/beta stuff.

Realistically, there is no explanation for her behavior in what you may have or have not done, except to observe that her reactions are sometimes way out of proportion to the situation at hand. This leaves us with three possible sources, mom, dad or previous relationship experiences. I think you can zero in on this pretty quick if you set your mind to it.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Even a 'dominant' husband has to accept that sometimes his wife will not want to have sex. A man who never, ever listens to his wife's concerns, needs, is a cad.


What if one's wife never "wants" to have sex?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Aggie said:


> Like I said, she only gets physical with me maybe once or twice a year. I know what will cause her to freak out, so I generally just don't do it. Even if she does get pissed off to that point, she doesn't ever actually hurt me. It is more of the fact that she is actually doing it that stuns me. *She doesn't punch or kick, she just more tries to wrestle me away from whatever she has setup as her safe zone.*
> 
> In my mind, there are two separate problems. There is one problem where she gets confrontational with me and acts like a teenager, and then there is the other one where she gets physical with me maybe once or twice a year. I feel that the first problem is the larger one, but the second one is a problem too because I don't know what to do about it.
> 
> I could easily restrain her or otherwise defend myself, but I'm programmed so strongly not to do so, I just freeze up. I'm also really afraid that someday she'll do something physical with me and, before I can even recognize it, I'll reflexively throw a punch, which could really, really hurt her.


You go into her safe zone! That's surely abuse.


Why on earth does she need a zone where she feels safe from you? Surely you've failed miserably with making her feel safe and secure in her own home?


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> What if one's wife never "wants" to have sex?


Exactly. She never "wants" to have sex anymore but she is considerate of me (1-2 times per week).

I'm thinking that she doesn't "want" sex anymore because subconsciously in her eyes I'm a doormat. I'm not a doormat, but I can see how she might think that way because of how gentle I try to be with her. And that was the original reason for this entire thread. Mostly the sex thing, which I thought I had the root reason figured out, but also these little confrontations.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Aggie, if you are trying to dominate your wife and even worse than that doing it within what she calls her “safe zone” such that she has to fight you off you have some deeply serious character issues.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

AFEH said:


> You go into her safe zone! That's surely abuse.
> 
> 
> Why on earth does she need a zone where she feels safe from you? Surely you've failed miserably with making her feel safe and secure in her own home?


Her "safe" zone changes. It isn't that she doesn't feel safe from me, more like she's annoyed with me enough to not want me around her.

And the reason I go into it is because, at 2 AM, she decides her safe zone is the freaking bed. Of course I go to the bed - that is where I sleep, too.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Why on earth does she need a zone where she feels safe from you? Surely you've failed miserably with making her feel safe and secure in her own home?


The short answer is to protect herself from having painful memories resurfaced. Marital love on it's own will never be sufficient to overcome all previous hurts so there is no failure present in being unable to perform the impossible.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

AFEH said:


> Aggie, if you are trying to dominate your wife and even worse than that doing it within what she calls her “safe zone” such that she has to fight you off you have some deeply serious character issues.


She doesn't call anything her safe zone - that is just the euphemism I came up for it. And it is a problem when she decides that her safe zone is a place that we both use. On top of that it varies.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> What if one's wife never "wants" to have sex?


Leave.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

AFEH said:


> Leave.


And if she doesn't "want" to have sex, but will because she is trying to be considerate of me. She has a really small sex drive right now, but understands that I have a high sex drive. So she does it 1-2 times a week, but it isn't all that great. She tries her best to pretend to be into it, but I can tell when she's really not.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Aggie said:


> Her "safe" zone changes. It isn't that she doesn't feel safe from me, more like she's annoyed with me enough to not want me around her.
> 
> And the reason I go into it is because, at 2 AM, she decides her safe zone is the freaking bed. Of course I go to the bed - that is where I sleep, too.


You've obviously a problem with expressing yourself.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Aggie said:


> I'm thinking that she doesn't "want" sex anymore because subconsciously in her eyes I'm a doormat. I'm not a doormat, but I can see how she might think that way because of how gentle I try to be with her. And that was the original reason for this entire thread. Mostly the sex thing, which I thought I had the root reason figured out, but also these little confrontations.


I humbly disagree. Barring some physical ailment, the most likely explanation is a degraded self perception in which she doesn't see herself as worthy or deserving of being loved. If your passive personality characteristics prevent you from being able to help her feel better about herself then they are certainly problematic


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Aggie said:


> And if she doesn't "want" to have sex, but will because she is trying to be considerate of me. She has a really small sex drive right now, but understands that I have a high sex drive. So she does it 1-2 times a week, but it isn't all that great. She tries her best to pretend to be into it, but I can tell when she's really not.




Could you do sex 1-2 times a week if you didn't want to with the woman you are with?


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

AFEH said:


> You've obviously a problem with expressing yourself.


Sorry. The concepts are abstract enough to me that it is very difficult for me to put them into words.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Aggie said:


> Much of relationship advice online, in text, or from other sources is conflicting when it comes to being a good husband. Some sources claim that if you can fix your "Nice Guy" tendencies, you can improve your marriage. Other sources claim that if you show that you love your significant other more, that will also improve your relationship.


Have you read Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.? No More Mr Nice Guy? MMSL?


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

AFEH said:


> Could you do sex 1-2 times a week if you didn't want to with the woman you are with?


If I really put myself into mating mode, probably. I'm not an unattractive man, and I never had a problem with attracting women while not being friendzoned.

However, I don't care if I could get sex with someone else if I wanted to. I love my wife. We share the same goals, want the same things, and our personalities compliment each other. I really have no clue what I would do without her. It's not that I couldn't survive without her, but I would be torn apart if we split up. It's not an option.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Aggie said:


> And if she doesn't "want" to have sex, but will because she is trying to be considerate of me. She has a really small sex drive right now, but understands that I have a high sex drive. So she does it 1-2 times a week, but it isn't all that great. She tries her best to pretend to be into it, but I can tell when she's really not.


 Ok, so she KNOWS that SF is your Emotional Need and is putting herself out of her comfort zone to MEET your EN.

Do you know what her ENs are? 

Are you putting yourself out of your comfort zone to meet at least one of them, like she is for you?


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

I don't see them as mutually exclusive at all. The alpha doesn't mean a*shole. It means you make decisions. You take charge. You handle things. You remain stoic and unshakeable in times of crisis. You don't give in and argue with her when she throws a tantrum. You can do those things and still kiss her and tell her she's beautiful. You can be strong and in charge and still help her do dishes. 

I think the problem comes when instead of being tender because you want to make her feel good, you use tenderness as currency to try to buy certain behavior from her. The first is coming from a place of strength, the second of weakness.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I humbly disagree. Barring some physical ailment, the most likely explanation is a degraded self perception in which see doesn't see herself a worthy or deserving of being loved. If your passive personality characteristics prevent you from being able to help her feel better about herself then they are certainly problematic


I've never picked up on her feeling that way, but maybe.

I don't know - it's confusing. Flirting / sexual innuendos are a turn off for her. She used to be confident and sexual, and now she's become so passive in our sex life. This is something we talk about, but the furthest we ever get is increasing the quantity of sex. I don't know how to get her back into it where she actually enjoys it.

How do I make her feel better about herself? I give her compliments, express how beatufiul and sexy she is, tell how smart I think she is, etc. When I express that I'm interested in her sexually, she generally gets annoyed. She's perfectly fine with all of the other stuff, though.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Drover said:


> I don't see them as mutually exclusive at all. The alpha doesn't mean a*shole. It means you make decisions. You take charge. You handle things. You remain stoic and unshakeable in times of crisis. You don't give in and argue with her when she throws a tantrum. You can do those things and still kiss her and tell her she's beautiful. You can be strong and in charge and still help her do dishes.
> 
> I think the problem comes when instead of being tender because you want to make her feel good, you use tenderness as currency to try to buy certain behavior from her. The first is coming from a place of strength, the second of weakness.


She does think that some things I do are completely meant to push her into sex. The problem is, I do secretly hope that by showing more love to her she will reciprocate. I mostly like making her feel good, but I can't completely eliminate the fact that I'm not getting enough from her. And it isn't just about sex, it is about her expressing love to me. Although physical touch is one of my primary love languages, I'm also tied for words of affirmation.

I don't think that, until she actually begins to meet my needs, I can be completely selfless in what I do for her. Most of it is that I want to make her feel good and happy, but I can't help but hope that if I'm showing more love to her she will show more love to me.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

turnera said:


> Have you read Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.? No More Mr Nice Guy? MMSL?


I've read No More Mr. Nice Guy and skimmed some of MMSL. Some of the concepts are applicable to me, but many are not. I'm not a complete "nice guy," and I don't feel like I have too many beta traits going on.

I haven't read Hold On To Your NUTS, though.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Aggie said:


> I've never picked up on her feeling that way, but maybe.
> 
> I don't know - it's confusing. Flirting / sexual innuendos are a turn off for her. She used to be confident and sexual, and now she's become so passive in our sex life. This is something we talk about, but the furthest we ever get is increasing the quantity of sex. I don't know how to get her back into it where she actually enjoys it.
> 
> How do I make her feel better about herself? I give her compliments, express how beatufiul and sexy she is, tell how smart I think she is, etc. When I express that I'm interested in her sexually, she generally gets annoyed. She's perfectly fine with all of the other stuff, though.


Sounds like she's checked out of your relationship (the romance, excitement, wanting, getting you) but wants to stay in the marriage, hence the duty only sex. Almost like she's treading water and you're Plan B until something better comes along. It happens. If it is the case, do not expect honesty from her as who could admit to doing such a heinous thing?


If she wanted you by her side like she did in the early days you'd be getting all the sex (and good food) you could ever desire from her.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Just for the record, I do not try to "dominate" my wife. When I say dominant, I guess you could consider it alpha traits. I don't want to force her to do things through domination - I want her to be attracted to me again by showing my more alpha tendencies again. I just don't know how much is too much.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

AFEH said:


> Sounds like she's checked out of your relationship (the romance, excitement, wanting, getting you) but wants to stay in the marriage, hence the duty only sex. Almost like she's treading water and you're Plan B until something better comes along. It happens. If it is the case, do not expect honesty from her as who could admit to doing such a heinous thing?
> 
> 
> If she wanted you by her side like she did in the early days you'd be getting all the sex (and good food) you could ever desire from her.


I really, really don't think she's waiting for something better to come along. I think it is more of "This is as good as it is going to get". Her parents are not affectionate and never romantic. This is what she believes is normal.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Aggie said:


> The other night we were about to go on a walk. She prefers the thermostat set high, and I prefer to set it low. I was hotter than usual (we live in Texas), so I turned the thermostat a little bit below what we normally set it at when we walk. She immediately set it higher than normal. I explain to her that I want it to be cooler in the house when we get back because I'm already starting off sweating, and she wants to save money on electricity (we don't have financial problems). We get into an argument about it and she stalks off, refuses to go on the walk, and starts taking a shower. I get pissed off and leave her alone.


 What was required there was honest communication (you say you talk a lot, but about problems? I'm guessing not) about what happened. You disagreed on the action and then she pulled out of the conversation when you didn't back down. THAT is what you bring up to her; in a healthy relationship, you are able to reach a consensus (leave it down for 30 minutes and then raise it up one degree for the next hour to make up for it, once you've cooled down). She is disallowing that to happen by her fight or flight reactions (which hark back to her childhood, but that's for another day). AND she is disrespecting you by ending the conversation and calling off the walk to punish you. You need to tell her, in such a situation, when she gets out of the shower, that you were disrespected and you would like your marriage to have a healthier approach to issues. Show her an example of another way it could have gone. Ask for her input on how you could reach an agreement both were happy with. And then ask her if she thinks it was fair of her to end the evening the way she did. If she says yes, ask her why. When she tells you it's what she wanted (she will), ask her why she thinks that's healthy. Keep engaging her to talk until she spills out the base reasons for why it happened that way. She FELT something that caused her to run (cornered, disrespected, unheard, abused, whatever; figure it out, or it will keep on happening. 

Communication is king.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Aggie said:


> She does think that some things I do are completely meant to push her into sex. The problem is, I do secretly hope that by showing more love to her she will reciprocate. I mostly like making her feel good, but I can't completely eliminate the fact that I'm not getting enough from her. And it isn't just about sex, it is about her expressing love to me. Although physical touch is one of my primary love languages, I'm also tied for words of affirmation.
> 
> I don't think that, until she actually begins to meet my needs, I can be completely selfless in what I do for her. *Most of it is that I want to make her feel good and happy, but I can't help but hope that if I'm showing more love to her she will show more love to me.*


In bad times it doesn’t work that way. The more you do with no return from her proves to her that she doesn’t need to make any effort.


In fact by the sounds of it the less she does the more you give her and the more she gets.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Aggie said:


> I've never picked up on her feeling that way, but maybe.
> 
> I don't know - it's confusing. Flirting / sexual innuendos are a turn off for her. She used to be confident and sexual, and now she's become so passive in our sex life. This is something we talk about, but the furthest we ever get is increasing the quantity of sex. I don't know how to get her back into it where she actually enjoys it.
> 
> How do I make her feel better about herself? I give her compliments, express how beatufiul and sexy she is, tell how smart I think she is, etc. When I express that I'm interested in her sexually, she generally gets annoyed. She's perfectly fine with all of the other stuff, though.


Every day married women are targets of hundreds of messages that chip away at their self worth, especially stay at home moms. You are one guy by yourself telling your wife that she gets value and worth from her role in your marriage while everywhere she looks everyone she sees is telling her she is wasting her real potential, degrading herself, following the wrong path, creating future dissatisfaction, on and on.

What you are doing, compliments, support, showing interest, these are all good things. Do them more often and do them better. Be especially careful about anything you may say or due that might negatively affect her core sense of self. Invite her to feed back what makes her feel hurt so you can work through it and regroup. Avoid being defensive


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

turnera said:


> What was required there was honest communication (you say you talk a lot, but about problems? I'm guessing not) about what happened. You disagreed on the action and then she pulled out of the conversation when you didn't back down. THAT is what you bring up to her; in a healthy relationship, you are able to reach a consensus (leave it down for 30 minutes and then raise it up one degree for the next hour to make up for it, once you've cooled down). She is disallowing that to happen by her fight or flight reactions (which hark back to her childhood, but that's for another day). AND she is disrespecting you by ending the conversation and calling off the walk to punish you. You need to tell her, in such a situation, when she gets out of the shower, that you were disrespected and you would like your marriage to have a healthier approach to issues. Show her an example of another way it could have gone. Ask for her input on how you could reach an agreement both were happy with. And then ask her if she thinks it was fair of her to end the evening the way she did. If she says yes, ask her why. When she tells you it's what she wanted (she will), ask her why she thinks that's healthy. Keep engaging her to talk until she spills out the base reasons for why it happened that way. She FELT something that caused her to run (cornered, disrespected, unheard, abused, whatever; figure it out, or it will keep on happening.
> 
> Communication is king.


Yes, we talk about our problems. I've talked with her about this until we're both blue in the face. In my opinion, we have some of the best communication of any married couple that we have seen. Neither of us are "sweep it under the rug" types.

And if we talk about something specific, she will almost always agree that her behavior was unacceptable. The problem is that it doesn't change that she will do it again.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Aggie said:


> I haven't read Hold On To Your NUTS, though.


I actually think that one would help you the most. It's an easy read and cheap. The website is even better (www.bettermen.org). It's about finding a balance in your life so that you are happy to please your wife but also willing to defend your right to your happiness.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Aggie said:


> She does think that some things I do are completely meant to push her into sex. The problem is, I do secretly hope that by showing more love to her she will reciprocate. I mostly like making her feel good, but I can't completely eliminate the fact that I'm not getting enough from her. And it isn't just about sex, it is about her expressing love to me. Although physical touch is one of my primary love languages, I'm also tied for words of affirmation.
> 
> I don't think that, until she actually begins to meet my needs, I can be completely selfless in what I do for her. Most of it is that I want to make her feel good and happy, but I can't help but hope that if I'm showing more love to her she will show more love to me.


She feels your neediness. Needy is not attractive. Stop touching her and being affectionate. Every time you do it, she feels like you're begging.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Aggie said:


> *I really, really don't think she's waiting for something better to come along.* I think it is more of "This is as good as it is going to get". Her parents are not affectionate and never romantic. This is what she believes is normal.



Ask her. May make her think a bit and has the potential of shaking her up and out of her slumber.


And/or just book yourself a two week camping/adventure/surfing/mountaineering/skiing whatever holiday and go off by yourself. On the way out the door just say "See you in two weeks time, I'll check in every now and then".


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

AFEH said:


> In bad times it doesn’t work that way. The more you do with no return from her proves to her that she doesn’t need to make any effort.
> 
> 
> In fact by the sounds of it the less she does the more you give her and the more she gets.


Ugh, on one side there are people like you that imply to stop showing her affection until she returns it. On the other side people imply that you're supposed to show even more affection.

Someone has to be the bigger person and invest. If neither of the spouses do it, both of them start to drift away.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Aggie said:


> Yes, we talk about our problems. I've talked with her about this until we're both blue in the face. In my opinion, we have some of the best communication of any married couple that we have seen. Neither of us are "sweep it under the rug" types.
> 
> And if we talk about something specific, she will almost always agree that her behavior was unacceptable. The problem is that it doesn't change that she will do it again.


 That's where your boundaries come in. "Wife, we both agree it was wrong for you to call off the walk the way you did. You keep agreeing, yet you keep repeating the behavior. It's wearing me down and making me unhappy. So I have to do something to protect myself from being hurt and unhappy when you continue unhealthy behavior. If you leave the room again because you're not getting what you want in a discussion, I'm going to have to ABC so I don't lose love for you."

ABC could be going for a walk by yourself. It could be going to your brother's/friend's house for a beer and a talk. It could be sleeping in another room that night. Figure it out. Make that your boundary (not walking out) and your consequence (ABC). Make it clear to her it's going to happen, and stick to it the next time she repeats. Try to find a consequence that has some effect on her, though, or you'll just end up living like roommates.

If a person experiences enough consequences for their actions, that action will eventually become more painful than the consequence, and they will CHOOSE to change.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Drover said:


> She feels your neediness. Needy is not attractive. Stop touching her and being affectionate. Every time you do it, she feels like you're begging.


And if I start dropping my effort, what if she doesn't pick up hers? I feel like this could go on for a very long time until she decides that she wants to improve us, and I don't think I can wait those years, slowly being pushed into the background of her mind.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Aggie said:


> I don't think that, until she actually begins to meet my needs, I can be completely selfless in what I do for her. Most of it is that I want to make her feel good and happy, but I can't help but hope that if I'm showing more love to her she will show more love to me.


This belief is flat out not going to work. You are waiting for her to act. If this is what you mean by beta then quit it right now. Don't condition your giving by what she does or doesn't do. We are all hopeful but you have to go first in order to get what you want


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

turnera said:


> That's where your boundaries come in. "Wife, we both agree it was wrong for you to call off the walk the way you did. You keep agreeing, yet you keep repeating the behavior. It's wearing me down and making me unhappy. So I have to do something to protect myself from being hurt and unhappy when you continue unhealthy behavior. If you leave the room again because you're not getting what you want in a discussion, I'm going to have to ABC so I don't lose love for you."
> 
> ABC could be going for a walk by yourself. It could be going to your brother's/friend's house for a beer and a talk. It could be sleeping in another room that night. Figure it out. Make that your boundary (not walking out) and your consequence (ABC). Make it clear to her it's going to happen, and stick to it the next time she repeats. Try to find a consequence that has some effect on her, though, or you'll just end up living like roommates.
> 
> If a person experiences enough consequences for their actions, that action will eventually become more painful than the consequence, and they will CHOOSE to change.


I guess I haven't considered giving her a prescribed consequence for each action. It seems a bit too much like parenting to me. Maybe it is worth a shot.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> This belief is flat out not going to work. You are waiting for her to act. If this is what you mean by beta then quit it right now. Don't condition your giving by what she does or doesn't do. We are all hopeful but you have to go first in order to get what you want


So you think I should just keep my affection stable so it removes the correlation between the two? Or should I pull back when she pulls back?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Aggie said:


> Ugh, on one side there are people like you that imply to stop showing her affection until she returns it. On the other side people imply that you're supposed to show even more affection.
> 
> Someone has to be the bigger person and invest. If neither of the spouses do it, both of them start to drift away.


 Each of us marries for a reason. Wanting something for US. You're on your side, wanting SF, maybe affection, recreation, whatever your top ENs are. She's on her side wanting HER ENs, whatever they are. If you want her to be happy to please you, it will be because you are meeting HER ENs. So yes, pay attention to what makes her happy, and be the person who brings her that happiness. But women want/need strong men who know their place in the world, don't take shyte from anyone, and respect themselves too much to become a doormat.

So know what you will accept (the N.U.T.S. book helps you figure that out), and assess everything against that. If she is not in line with what you want/need, say so and take steps to right the situation (boundaries/consequences). If she is, make it obvious to her how happy she's making you, in whatever way SHE can recognize (not the way YOU want).


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Aggie said:


> And if I start dropping my effort, what if she doesn't pick up hers? I feel like this could go on for a very long time until she decides that she wants to improve us, and I don't think I can wait those years, slowly being pushed into the background of her mind.


Dude, I wouldn't wait for her to decide to do anything. You are the one who determines your place in he mind. Playing games of who goes first will not make you a happy guy. Do what you know is right


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Aggie said:


> Yes, we talk about our problems. I've talked with her about this until we're both blue in the face. In my opinion, we have some of the best communication of any married couple that we have seen. Neither of us are "sweep it under the rug" types.
> 
> And if we talk about something specific, she will almost always agree that her behavior was unacceptable. The problem is that it doesn't change that she will do it again.


Stop talking and change your behavior. My guess your "communication" often consists of you over-explaining your position in a defensive way, which just comes across as more whining and begging.

Tell her. This is what I need. This is what I expect. You can either decide right now to commit to this behavior or not. If the answer is not, this marriage won't work and I won't waste any more time in a broken marriage with someone who doesn't care enough to fix it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Aggie said:


> I guess I haven't considered giving her a prescribed consequence for each action. It seems a bit too much like parenting to me. Maybe it is worth a shot.


It's not parenting. It's respecting yourself and removing yourself from bad behavior. SHE is still free to do whatever the hell she wants. She just won't get to have you there helping her do it. Still her choice.

(although this DOES work with kids, too)

It takes the emotion out of the situation, leaving logic. You can't fight logic. You can't out-argue logic. You hurt me, I remove myself. If you don't want me to remove myself, don't hurt me.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Dude, I wouldn't wait for her to decide to do anything. You are the one who determines your place in he mind. Playing games of who goes first will not make you a happy guy. Do what you know is right


I thought I was doing what was right. But I don't want to come off as needy or reinforce behavior that I don't want.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Aggie said:


> So you think I should just keep my affection stable so it removes the correlation between the two? Or should I pull back when she pulls back?


Her pulling back is a bad action that crosses your boundary (of respecting you); it deserves a consequence.

You can't 'like' her into wanting to please you.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Aggie said:


> Ugh, on one side there are people like you that imply to stop showing her affection until she returns it. On the other side people imply that you're supposed to show even more affection.
> 
> Someone has to be the bigger person and invest. If neither of the spouses do it, both of them start to drift away.


My perspective is that of a man who was with the love of his love for 42 years and was able to have sex whenever and just about wherever he wanted with his wife (they were one and the same person).

Of course I got “duty sex” like you do if you're lucky twice a week but I also got passionate sex, make-up sex, haven’t seen you for a while sex, massage sex, in the woods and fields sex, quicky kitchen worktop sex etc. etc. etc. I’d have great difficulty believing anyone who told me I did something wrong.


I will tell you that you more likely need to do less rather than more in order to get your wife actively back into your marriage. In a way she needs to fear losing you. You can of course do that by doing the 180. It’s exactly the opposite of what you are doing and comes highly recommended on TAM.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Aggie said:


> I thought I was doing what was right. But I don't want to come off as needy or reinforce behavior that I don't want.


 Then don't!

You won't be needy if you explain what you want in a marriage and enact consequences if she then chooses to spit in your face.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Being nicer rarely makes people want to meet your needs. In fact the opposite usually happens.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Aggie said:


> So you think I should just keep my affection stable so it removes the correlation between the two? Or should I pull back when she pulls back?


I think you should ramp up your affection and leave it at the highest level you can muster. One of my mentors states that the woman's primary need in marriage is security, specifically emotional security. She needs to know in her heart that her man's love and desire for her is constant and not affected by moods or behavior or the weather or whatever. Be the rock and set the emotional tone for your marriage. Use your strength to hold it through thick and thin


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

AFEH said:


> My perspective is that of a man who was with the love of his love for 42 years and was able to have sex whenever and just about wherever he wanted with his wife (they were one and the same person).
> 
> Of course I got “duty sex” like you do if you're lucky twice a week but I also got passionate sex, make-up sex, haven’t seen you for a while sex, massage sex, in the woods and fields sex, quicky kitchen worktop sex etc. etc. etc. I’d have great difficulty believing anyone who told me I did something wrong.
> 
> ...


I've obviously missed what the 180 is. Can you explain it or tell me where I can find a description?

*Edit* I remember it now. Refreshing my memory right now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Aggie said:


> And if I start dropping my effort, what if she doesn't pick up hers? I feel like this could go on for a very long time until she decides that she wants to improve us, and I don't think I can wait those years, slowly being pushed into the background of her mind.


 That's because she is getting no consequences.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I think you should ramp up your affection and leave it at the highest level you can muster. One of my mentors states that the woman's primary need in marriage is security, specifically emotional security. She needs to know in her heart that her man's love and desire for her is constant and not affected by moods or behavior or the weather or whatever. Be the rock and set the emotional tone for your marriage. Use your strength to hold it through thick and thin


And what would you say about AFEH's idea of the 180?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And you most DEFINITELY need to go back and read No More Mr Nice Guy because you are definitely one.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Aggie said:


> I thought I was doing what was right. But I don't want to come off as needy or reinforce behavior that I don't want.


Nothing needy about demonstrating love and affection in a firm positive manner. Behavioral reinforcement is for mice and dogs and your wife is neither.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

turnera said:


> And you most DEFINITELY need to go back and read No More Mr Nice Guy because you are definitely one.


No, I'm not.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I thought you said you 'skimmed' the book? How would you know?


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

turnera said:


> I thought you said you 'skimmed' the book? How would you know?


I've read enough of that book to realize I wasn't a nice guy. I might match a very small portion of those characteristics, but it isn't enough for me to classify myself as one.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Aggie said:


> And what would you say about AFEH's idea of the 180?


The 180 program was originally designed for the standing spouse to deal with infidelity. It is very effective and I used it myself for great gain. Does your wife have another person in her life that she values more than you? Has she moved her love, trust and respect out of your marriage and placed it in someone else? If she is living with you and is emotionally attached to someone else, the 180 is your first step in your plan to get her back


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Aggie said:


> I've obviously missed what the 180 is. Can you explain it or tell me where I can find a description?
> 
> *Edit* I remember it now. Refreshing my memory right now.


Sometimes (all times?) in long term marriages either one or both spouses become complacent, kind of smug, unworried.

As a husband, the more dependable and reliable you are, the more complacent your wife will become. Unless she has some wisdom and actually counts her blessings.

But the problem with complacency is that we lose sight of our blessings. Take the fingers you use to type your posts into TAM. Have you ever thought how you would manage without those fingers? Take a look at them now, touch them, feel them.

Now make your hands into a fist such that you cannot use your fingers and try typing a message. Now do you really appreciate your figures?


You said you want to feel more appreciated by your wife. But just like your fingers you are always there, aren’t you. Lets say you’ve been reliably paying the mortgage for the past 20 years. Do you think your wife appreciates that? What if you hadn’t paid it for three months and were under threat of repossession. Do you think your wife would now be thinking about the mortgage?

And what if you say manage to get a new good paying job and rescued the situation. Do you think your wife would appreciate that now she can keep her home. Do you see what I mean, what I’m at?


I’ve been there. I know what I talk about in long term marriages. Basically the better you are the less you are appreciated. It’s sods law and it happens. It takes drastic intervention (even just going off by yourself for two weeks) to turn things around.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> The 180 program was originally designed for the standing spouse to deal with infidelity. It is very effective and I used it myself for great gain. Does your wife have another person in her life that she values more than you? Has she moved her love, trust and respect out of your marriage and placed it in someone else? If she is living with you and is emotionally attached to someone else, the 180 is your first step in your plan to get her back


No, she's not any of those things.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Ugh, now I'm confused. She could be considered complacent sometimes, but at other times she seems anything but.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Aggie said:


> No, she's not any of those things.


Then I wouldn't recommend the 180 but I have to admit that a 2-week deep sea fishing trip sounds really attractive. If I could justify it as marriage improvement that would be great. I think I may mention it to my wife as a possible solution the next time we talk about drive


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

How is a 2-week trip supposed to increase her libido for me? If her love language is quality time, isn't that something to NOT do?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Aggie said:


> How is a 2-week trip supposed to increase her libido for me? If her love language is quality time, isn't that something to NOT do?


You are in denial about not being a Nice Guy.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Aggie said:


> I've read enough of that book to realize I wasn't a nice guy. I might match a very small portion of those characteristics, but it isn't enough for me to classify myself as one.


This entire thread sounds like you're a posterchild for NMMNG.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Then I wouldn't recommend the 180 but I have to admit that a 2-week deep sea fishing trip sounds really attractive. If I could justify it as marriage improvement that would be great. I think I may mention it to my wife as a possible solution the next time we talk about drive


Those are not even close to the only circumstances in which the 180 works. It doesn't have to be about another person at all.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Aggie said:


> How is a 2-week trip supposed to increase her libido for me? If her love language is quality time, isn't that something to NOT do?


What she wants and gets isn't necessarily what turns her on.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Aggie said:


> How is a 2-week trip supposed to increase her libido for me? If her love language is quality time, isn't that something to NOT do?


That is an excellent question. But since she couldn't explain her lack of desire last night except to say "I don't feel like it", I don't feel any need to explain my proposed solution other than "I feel like it (will help)". I'm counting on my brothers here in this thread to give me some backup


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Aggie said:


> How is a 2-week trip supposed to increase her libido for me? If her love language is quality time, isn't that something to NOT do?


 :scratchhead:

What exactly do you think a NG is?

What can I do to make her want me? How can I be nicer? Can I pretend to NOT be nice so she'll want me? Did I meet enough needs today so I can get some sex tonight?


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Drover said:


> Those are not even close to the only circumstances in which the 180 works. It doesn't have to be about another person at all.


Sounds good. You seem to have a lot of good knowledge and I'm only going by what I heard from Ms Davis


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> What if one's wife never "wants" to have sex?


When a wife (or husband) never want to have sex or seldom what to have sex there is a serious issue in the marriage.

Being a dominant husband will not fix it issue. Setting the boundary that you want to have sex x times a week is the healthy way to handle this. Generally there's a compromise as it's seldom that 2 people have matched libidos.

Now knowing the expectations, the spouse who does not want sex or wants it seldom needs to do some work to determine why they don't want sex and how to fix that. Sometimes the solution is that both spouses have to do things to make the desire to have sex return.

But if the spouse who does not want sex will not do what is needed to return to having sex... the marriage is over. The spouse who wants sex more often will have to either accept that they are in a sexless marriage or they need to file for divorce. 

It's about setting that boundary that you will not stay in a sexless marriage. It's not about 'dominating' your wife to force her to have sex with you. Or for a woman to 'dominate' her husband to force him to have sex.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The trip would up your score because it would show her that you respect yourself enough to go out and grab some fun for yourself...because you CAN.

THAT is manly. THAT is alpha. 

Then, when you come home, you grab her and kiss her and carry her to bed and say 'DAMN I've missed you!' and have your way. She'll be beside herself, wanting to please you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> When a wife (or husband) never want to have sex or seldom what to have sex there is a serious issue in the marriage.


Exactly.

Have you read His Needs Her Needs? Have you both filled out the Love Buster questionnaire? Emotional Needs questionnaire? Spend 15 hours a week together without the kids? Lots of things you can be doing to make her excited to be in this marriage. And THAT is when she'll want to have sex.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

AFEH said:


> You are in denial about not being a Nice Guy.


Characteristics of nice guys

1. Dishonest. I'm not dishonest. I don't hide my mistakes, avoid conflict, try to woo everyone. I do, however, repress my emotions sometimes.

2. Secretive. I don't try to hide everything that might upset people. Although I don't like upsetting people, I dislike lying even more.

3. Compartmentalized. I am compartmentalized, but only with some emotions. I don't compartmentalize concepts and ideas to justify my behavior - I compartmentalize because I don't want my emotions running rampant through me.

4. Give to get. In every other relationship, I don't do this. I have read so many marriage self-help books, however, that claim that if you give more, your spouse will eventually reciprocate. I want to make my wife happy for herself, but I do also want her to reciprocate. It is hard not getting what you need and then trying to do things for the other person without the small hope that maybe this is the one thing that will get to them.

5. Passive aggressive. I'm not afraid of confrontation, and I'm clear about it. To be honest, I excel in confrontational situations.

6. Full of rage. I might be angry with my spouse for not fulfilling what I need, but overall I'm very laid-back and not quick to anger.

7. Difficulty setting boundaries. I don't have difficulty setting boundaries with the world in general, but I have problems doing it with my wife. It feels too much like parenting, and I don't want to talk down to her.

8. Frequently isolated. Definitely not. I have a plethora of guy friends that I do stuff with pretty often.

9. Attracted to people and situations that need fixing. Nope. I want to fix what is up with my marriage, but I feel very little need to go around fixing the world up.

10. Frequently have problems in intimate relationships. I don't think so, but I can't be 100% sure. I've never had a problem before.

11. Have issues with sexuality. Yes, I am dissatisfied with my sex life right now. I don't have problems with performance anxiety, I don't feel the need to look at porn, and I don't compusively masturbate.

12. Usually only relatively successful. This isn't the case. When I put my mind to it, I almost always get the outcome I want.

While I might fit somewhat into some of these categories with my wife, I don't think it is enough to consider myself a nice guy. You and others can say all you want about me being in denial about it.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

turnera said:


> Then, when you come home, you grab her and kiss her and carry her to bed and say 'DAMN I've missed you!' and have your way. She'll be beside herself, wanting to please you.


Don't tell him that. It won't work that way because he'll come back EXPECTING that. The point is it's a start. It is alpha. And he def needs more alpha.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> The trip would up your score because it would show her that you respect yourself enough to go out and grab some fun for yourself...because you CAN.
> 
> THAT is manly. THAT is alpha.
> 
> Then, when you come home, you grab her and kiss her and carry her to bed and say 'DAMN I've missed you!' and have your way. She'll be beside herself, wanting to please you.


I am so on board with this. Even if she falls asleep when you return, you still got the trip


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Aggie said:


> Characteristics of nice guys
> While I might fit somewhat into some of these categories with my wife, I don't think it is enough to consider myself a nice guy. You and others can say all you want about me being in denial about it.


I don't even know you and could go through every one of these and answer them just based on this thread. You ARE a NG and you won't fix what's wrong until you address it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Aggie said:


> Characteristics of nice guys
> 
> 1. Dishonest. I'm not dishonest. I don't hide my mistakes, avoid conflict, try to woo everyone. I do, however, repress my emotions sometimes. She doesn't know how unhappy you are.
> 
> ...


So...you can stand up to us and to all your guy friends and your work colleagues, but you can't stand up to her? Enough said.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Aggie said:


> Characteristics of nice guys
> 
> 1. Dishonest. I'm not dishonest. I don't hide my mistakes, avoid conflict, try to woo everyone. I do, however, repress my emotions sometimes.
> 
> ...


From reading your posts from the beginning and bearing it all in mind, the above post is just continuing your denial but in a massive way. It's like you've succeeded in deluding yourself.


But even with others here, some very experienced, telling you just how much of a Nice Guy you are, they cannot break you out of your denials and delusion.


I will add that a bad boy is far more likely to wet your wife's sexual appetite and get her to give of herself in passionate ways than you ever will be. Sometimes you have to be that bad boy in your marriage. It's just another hat a man wears.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Aggie said:


> 7. Difficulty setting boundaries. I don't have difficulty setting boundaries with the world in general, but I have problems doing it with my wife. It feels too much like parenting, and I don't want to talk down to her.


Having difficulty setting healthy boundaries doesn't make you a "Nice Guy" but it does cause some problems. A lot of people are in this predicament because they never needed all this boundary stuff until they were well into a marriage with someone from a very different family of origin and a very different set of life experiences.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Drover said:


> What she wants and gets isn't necessarily what turns her on.


Yes indeed. My wife claims acts of service as her primary love language but she is woefully on action herself and she went out of her way to diss so much of what I did for her on so many occasions that I really backed off this one


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

turnera said:


> The trip would up your score because it would show her that you respect yourself enough to go out and grab some fun for yourself...because you CAN.
> 
> THAT is manly. THAT is alpha.
> 
> Then, when you come home, you grab her and kiss her and carry her to bed and say 'DAMN I've missed you!' and have your way. She'll be beside herself, wanting to please you.


I wouldn’t do it for those reasons. I’d do it because I’d become messed off with my wife taking me for granted and to give myself some space to think about things and a bit of a treat. I’m a great believer in sitting on the top of mountains to get a different perspective.


On return no way on the planet would I give her the opportunity to reject me once again by grabbing hold of her. Why would any man on earth demean, humiliate himself in that way, even if it’s just a remote possibility.


No. I would be civil and observe her in a relatively detached way. If she didn’t start making advances towards me or give me some sign of contrition and actually “wanting” me, I’d just plan to be out and away somewhere for the next weekend.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Aggie, 
Let's start with one and only one premise and go from there: you need to be in control of your emotions. That doesn't mean you won't feel anger it does mean you won't speak or act in anger. 

If you can do (1), then two gets easier. Two is all about patterns. I smiled when I read about your wife's need for space when she is angry. My wife is exactly the same. Until she has cooled off it is very counterproductive to approach her. Because of that, I almost always et her decide when communication resumes. 

BUT, that doesn't mean I lose bedroom privileges because she is angry, it means I just don't speak to her. If she needed spatial separation SHE would need to sleep elsewhere. I am not getting kicked out of MY half of the bed because she is angry. Half the time she was caused the fight and ends up apologizing. 

Quite a few men on here cannot tolerate conflict with their wives and are always pressuring them to make up sooner than the wife is ready. I view that as controlling. Oddly enough my wife has tried that with me a couple times. 

She did this: I said I was sorry, but I don't want you to be mad at me. I briefly explained that while I appreciated the Apology I needed time to cool as she often does. And she accepted that. 

Your wife is routinely doing stuff you dislike. Repeatedly doing the same stuff. And you:
- get angry
- force a conversation about why she was wrong and get a hollow apology 

Instead it is better to either use humor or very few words combined with body language. Or ignore the comment and then ignores her totally for a whole, and she will definitely understand what you are doing and why.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> I smiled when I read about your wife's need for space when she is angry. My wife is exactly the same. Until she has cooled off it is very counterproductive to approach her. Because of that, I almost always et her decide when communication resumes.


We used to have this issue. If she didn't want to talk about something, her response was to act out angrily to put a stop to the conversation. My response was to try to force her to talk about it because it was important to me and I knew she had intention of ever revisiting the topic. 

We have now figured out that the way to handle it is for her to just say, this is not something I'm comfortable talking about and I need to get my thoughts together. How about we talk about it tomorrow night. It's so simple. Because I now know it will get addressed at a set time in the future, I can relax and we will have a more productive conversation without all the anxiety.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Drover is right, BUT, only if she adds let's talk about it tomorrow. If she continually stops the conversation where SHE wants it and then refuses to ever discuss it again, you need to find a way to change that. It puts all the power in her hands and keeps your marriage hostage to her feelings. And creates Nice Guys.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Success!

First off, we suspected that the pill was knocking down her libido. She went off of it ~2-3 weeks ago, and I didn't notice any increase in her sex drive. I was worried that her low sex drive was entirely related to some other problem since it didn't increase. It turns out I just hadn't waited long enough.

Secondly, I think she was starting to go into "my H is a doormat" mode. Although I know many of you think I'm a "poster child" for No More Mr. Nice Guy, these tendencies have been a relatively recent development (a few months). After actually enforcing my boundaries I think I've quickly repaired much of the harm that was done. It looks like I went too far on the "beta" side of the balance, and need to go back the other direction.

Friday was a day full of arguments and "WTF?" fights, but it was a pretty fast turn-around. Yesterday we had the best sex we've had in years. Although I'm sure her perception of me being a little too soft with her is going to take time to repair, I'm off to a pretty good start.

Everyone, thank you for your help. You all made clear that what she says she wants isn't always precisely what she needs.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Congrats Aggie! Keep the things you've figured out always in the back of your mind so you don't slip back into those old patterns that will get you in trouble again.

Oh and good luck in the SEC. We'll miss the easy conference win every year. Hook 'Em!


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I was going to ask abou the BCP. Those things are evil. Glad it's looking up for you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Aggie said:


> Success!
> 
> First off, we suspected that the pill was knocking down her libido. She went off of it ~2-3 weeks ago, and I didn't notice any increase in her sex drive. I was worried that her low sex drive was entirely related to some other problem since it didn't increase. It turns out I just hadn't waited long enough.
> 
> ...


 OH puleaze. Just one more excuse for a man to blame all his problems on the women. Give me a break.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

turnera said:


> OH puleaze. Just one more excuse for a man to blame all his problems on the women. Give me a break.


Does it look like I'm blaming all my problems on my wife?

I can understand having a difference of opinion, but if you want to flamebait there are plenty of other forums to be an a**hole on.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Drover said:


> Congrats Aggie! Keep the things you've figured out always in the back of your mind so you don't slip back into those old patterns that will get you in trouble again.
> 
> Oh and good luck in the SEC. We'll miss the easy conference win every year. Hook 'Em!


Yeah - I'll work on that.

And if I remember correctly, y'all were the ones that refused to setup a non-conference game. Gig'em


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Aggie said:


> Does it look like I'm blaming all my problems on my wife?
> 
> I can understand having a difference of opinion, but if you want to flamebait there are plenty of other forums to be an a**hole on.


I think what she's reacting to is the way you framed this like it was mostly her BC causing the problem, and her going into "treat you like a doormat" mode.

That makes it sound like you have it backward. Women start treating you like a doormat when you start acting like one, not the other way around. If there is a power (I hate to use the word "power" here but...) vaccuum, she will fill it. If you stop making the decisions for your family, she will. If you stop exercising control (and I don't mean micromanaging) of your household, she will. When you stop handing the things she needs handled, she handles them and you lose trust. And when she can't trust you to handle sh*t, what good are you to her?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No, I'm happy for you. Just make sure you aren't shifting all the issues on her shoulders. You became beta because of what she said she wanted, stuff like that. If both of you take equal responsibility, you'll have a healthy relationship. The blame thing is insidious, and hard to track. Just be aware of it.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

turnera said:


> No, I'm happy for you. Just make sure you aren't shifting all the issues on her shoulders. You became beta because of what she said she wanted, stuff like that. If both of you take equal responsibility, you'll have a healthy relationship. The blame thing is insidious, and hard to track. Just be aware of it.


Thanks. I'll make sure I'm not pushing all of the blame on her.

I'm not trying to shift blame from myself to her; although, it can sound that way because I'm gauging the effects of what I do with her behavior. I don't know or care who should shoulder the responsibility - I'm just glad that I'm taking steps in the right direction.


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## Aggie (Sep 5, 2012)

Drover said:


> I think what she's reacting to is the way you framed this like it was mostly her BC causing the problem, and her going into "treat you like a doormat" mode.
> 
> That makes it sound like you have it backward. Women start treating you like a doormat when you start acting like one, not the other way around. If there is a power (I hate to use the word "power" here but...) vaccuum, she will fill it. If you stop making the decisions for your family, she will. If you stop exercising control (and I don't mean micromanaging) of your household, she will. When you stop handing the things she needs handled, she handles them and you lose trust. And when she can't trust you to handle sh*t, what good are you to her?


After re-reading my post I can see how it could sound like I have it backwards.

I don't blame either of us for the BCP. We both decided for her start it and recently we both decided for her to go off of it. It is nothing that she or I did - it is just the unforeseen consequence.

Also, I think I understand why she was going into "my H is a doormat" mode. I'm not trying to imply that the sole reason for this was her telling me she wanted me to be more of a beta. I'm the one that decided to do it, so I'm also a large part of the problem. I don't really care who gets the blame. I'm just happy that I've found out the largest reasons for why we are having problems and have been able to address them.


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