# My wife has gotten a little too friendly with my brother



## OnTheBrink

(Sorry this is rather long!)

It's not that there's any one glaring, obvious thing I can point to and say is a big issue, it's the combination of various behaviors on her and his part that I'm not comfortable with. My wife has always gotten along well with my brother, but it has developed to a point I am not comfortable with over the last year or so. My brother got divorced around the time we first acknowledged to each other that our marriage was in a really bad place and if things didn't change we would likely end up there too. My wife acted super cool with my brother about the divorce so she could get the inside scoop and ended up becoming his main confidant over others in his immediate family. It bothered me at the time that she was getting in the way of me understanding what he was going through and being there for him. But at that point my negative feelings were more of being irritated with her then of the closeness she was developing with him.

About a year or so ago it got to a point where I felt the need to talk with her and ask her to back off. She got extremely defensive and acted like I was accusing her of some gross wrong, and then ridiculed me treating me like there was something wrong with me for even suggesting anything was amiss. There have been a couple times since where I again mentioned something to her about not being comfortable with their interaction, and I received similar responses. At the point that I first said something she had been texting him fairly regularly, which I had an issue with. (Would be okay if she were texting him to work out logistics for a family event.) As far as I know she has now stopped. However, he follows her on Twitter, which she has now become obsessed with. (She usually goes to bed with her phone in hand checking Twitter) When she started doing this – it made me wonder if she were having some texting affair with someone, but the couple of times I’ve gotten a hold of her phone when it’s unlocked – I didn’t find anything. I haven’t found any posts between them or simultaneous posts implying a form of communication. I haven’t yet had a chance to see if there are any direct messages between them – but I don’t think so. What bothers me is that every time my brother sees her, he always talks with her about her tweets and she eats it up. They get in little side conversations with each other – tell little side jokes and such. My brother, now single again, has been working out a lot and is looking really good in that regard. My wife used to fawn all over him about (for the reason of being supportive), but has stopped (at least around me) since I said something. So I know she has made some changes in this regard, but what bothers me is that she has found new ways to interact with him and get attention from him. I want to see a definitive change in the overall level of her interaction with him – not for her to change specific things I complain about to appease me. We don’t see my brother in person that regularly, and I don’t particularly want to construct a gathering just so she can prove to me that she’s going to change. I’m thinking of asking her to take a break from Twitter for a while. If we are going to make our relationship work and grow healthy, we could both stand to give up some other distractions to focus on that anyway.

After the initial start of this, but prior to things getting to the point where I was really uncomfortable, I had grown close to a woman I worked with. I had warned my wife for years that if she wasn't there for me I would eventually find someone else to meet my needs, but she made no attempt and I eventually did. When that relationship got to the point where something might happen, I did talk with her about it openly and at the time was fine continuing the marriage and having this relationship on the side - she was not. She made all the apologies about how wrong she had been and all the promises about how things would change in the future. But threatened if I didn't destroy the relationship in a permanent way she would destroy the family and try to take the kids away from me. I wanted to at least find a smooth transition out, but gave into the threats which then affected my circle of friends and even my job negatively. She in turn then set out to blame all our relationship problems on me, and made no attempt to live up to her promises - in some cases blatantly breaking them. (It has been a pattern with her in our relationship that she will say whatever to get what she wants in the moment - but then not follow through with what she said once she has what she wants...but I'm the sucker that keeps falling for it. There is a difficult line to walk here as I have to be able to trust her and can’t hold the past against her in a healthy relationship. I feel like she started this to get even with me and/or make me jealous, but she vehemently denies that. For me it would be helpful if she were just honest enough to admit some misconduct and give me some general reason for it. Now, I feel like there is some aspect to it that she enjoys and doesn’t want to give up. 

Am I way off base here? Am I being completely unreasonable?

I feel like even if I were, the fact that the activity is making me uncomfortable should be sufficient reason for her to comply. She always complains about me making things uncomfortable when I ask her to change her interaction level with him. But she didn’t mind damaging my friendships and hurting me at work to remove someone she felt threatened by. But it’s too much to ask for her to undergo a little discomfort with my brother so that I can have a better relationship with her, and avoid the possibility of animosity developing between me and him.


----------



## Shaggy

One idea is to get your brother a serious gf. That would mess up any romance they are developing on either side.


----------



## TBT

Are you and your brother close enough that you can discuss some of this with him? Having just gone through a divorce himself he may understand how insecurities either real or imagined can be detrimental to any marriage.


----------



## Mavash.

This story was way too long so I just skimmed it however I will tell you the truth about people.

People do what they want and don't do what they don't want to. What that means is you can't MAKE anyone do anything they don't want to do. If your wife is going to cheat she's going to cheat. If your brother would go after your wife then he's going to go after your wife.

The behavior of others is largely out of your control. What you can control is how YOU react to it. Your boundaries are totally within your control. You can state you're not okay with this and state the consequences if the behavior continues. You must however be willing to follow through on said consequences. If you aren't then don't bother.


----------



## Halien

She's being pretty naive if she ridicules you for their behavior. I'd suggest standing your ground, and call them out when you see it. Affairs with BIL's and SIL's do happen. My sife's sister had an affair with a BIL (obviously not me).

It is your brother. Doesn't matter how close you are to him, he should hold himself to a higher standard of integrity when it comes to your wife. Tell him that if he must no longer use her to discuss his feelings and personal thoughts, and then tell your wife what your boundaries are. If your wife dismisses you again, you can either make it a condition of marriage, or begin investigating options to monitor her online chats.


----------



## OnTheBrink

I don't think her or my brother are actually intending to do anything, but more just flirting with the idea of it (and maybe in the back of their minds thinking - if things were different I might do something, but I could never do that to ___) This likely developed innocently enough, but continuing to flirt with it is disrespectful to me and makes me very uncomfortable, which along with other factors causes this to have a negative effect on my relationship with my wife. Additionally if this continues then given the right set of circumstances something could happen.

I know both parties are at fault for their participation, but I would assign more of the blame to my wife. (Maybe that's partly b/c right now I probably like my brother better) But seriously, my brother is in a very vulnerable position right now. On top of the effects of the divorce, there are other negative circumstances in his life where he doesn't have a lot going for him right now. (Let me add that my wife nabbed me when I was in a very vulnerable position - at my personal lowest point in life to that point and possibly overall...would have to ponder whether my marital problems ever took me lower.)

The other thing is I don't want to bring this up directly with my brother if I don't have to. This will put strain on our relationship and give him one more thing to worry about. If it gets to the point where I feel that is necessary, then I definitely would. But this can be resolved without going there, if my wife will simply stop participating in any inappropriate interaction. Yes - that will take specific resolve and may involve some discomfort intiially since he's gotten accustomed to certain treatment from her. I know she feels some obligation to entertain guests but shouldn't spend any more time with him (and for now probably much less) than anyone else. Especially, for the time being, when she's not in that mode she should be sitting next to me, with her arm around me and/or other gestures to show that I'm who's she's with and who is important to her.


----------



## Toffer

OTB,

Since you really haven't presented any real evidence that what your wife and brother is doing is wrong in any way (with the exception of being totally disrespectful to you and your marriage), the one thing I would advise is to investigate quietly.

Find out how many texrs and phone calls they're doing each month from your cell phone bills. Also put a key logger on your PC and last but not least, buy a voice activated recorder (VAR) and attach it under the seat of her car with heavy duty velcro.

Monitor all these sources and see if anything comes of it

Why did your brother's marriage end? Ask him. Tell him you have issues too and would appreciate it if he didn't contact her for a while so that the two of you might have some more free time to work on your issues


----------



## OnTheBrink

So after that last incident, we talked things through where she assured me that she had no inappropriate interest in him, but just “thought of him like a brother”. It bothered me how many times she mentioned that she cared about him in that same context, since I can’t recall her ever expressing that about anyone else in my family. But I try to ignore it. I stated my expectations about her level of interaction with him and expressed my concerns about her sending him the wrong signals. She promises to abide by my wishes though never acknowledging any inappropriate behavior on her part. Fast forward to this weekend, when there was a bigger family gathering planned that would be the first time since that the two of them would be together. Beforehand, I reiterated my concerns and expectations – including that I didn’t want her having individual personal conversation with him. She (partly in excusing her past behavior) asked me to act more social and interact with him more, so that she wouldn’t feel a need to pick up the slack socially. I agreed to. Through the first half of the event, she was compliant and I was feeling positive. He at some point early had gravitated in her direction, as if hoping/waiting to get the usual attention he receives from her, but she remained engaged in a conversation with someone else so he moved on. I got to interact with my brother more, because I wasn’t having to compete with her for his attention, which was also circumventing the prior discomfort I felt. At various points she was asking me things about him and the couple others sitting next to him , which while it bothered me slightly that she was so concerned, at least she was coming to me. Then at one point she said that he and the others down there were looking bored, and specifically asked me to talk to them. So I started conversing with that end of the table, during which time she decided to say something jokingly directly to him. At this point, I still feel positive and assume that she is just making a point to show that she is not ignoring him. Then a little while later she asked me about something I had been conversing with him about, and then asked if it was okay with me if she asked him about it. I said I didn’t want her going out of her way to ask him about it, but if it came up in natural conversation that I wouldn’t care if she participated. She complained that since I asked her not to sit next to him, that it wouldn’t come up naturally. Just a few minutes later, I got up to check on the children that had been sitting between me and him, and then my wife was on my other side. I wasn’t gone for more than a minute or two, and then came back to the two of them talking about that very topic. I chose not to jump to conclusions but to wait and ask my wife about it later. Afterward she immediately acts defensive, and preemptively states that there’s no way I could have a problem with anything she did before I’ve even had a chance to ask her about it. Once I get the answer it turns out that sure enough she asked him about it after I left. Her excuse was that even though there were several chairs between them, once they were empty she felt like it would be rude not to talk to him, even though there were people directly in front of and to the other side of her, and other people next to him. She also somewhat contradicts herself, by on one hand claiming she had only asked me as a courtesy, but on the other she genuinely misunderstood my wishes and thought that now it was “natural” for her to bring it up since there was no one between them. 

Additionally, afterward she went out of her way to approach him and joke with him again about that topic. A little while later, I was pretty much standing right next to her, when he came up and touched her shoulder while relaying something to her regarding my children. While I don’t condone either of their behaviors, my brother was keeping his distance as long as she was respecting my wishes. Only after she initiated individual conversation with him on multiple occasions and joked with him in a way that could easily be interpreted as flirtatious did he approach her. In our later conversation, she called me on many occasions in different ways crazy and stupid for thinking there was anything wrong with anything she (or he) had done. She cursed at me and cursed me, without me returning any of this behavior in kind. When I told her matter of factly that right or wrong, the behavior made me uncomfortable, and that I felt especially disrespected when I had explicitly set boundaries that she choose to cross in spite of how it made me feel. In short, she responded by saying if I wasn’t going to let her just be who she is then she wanted a divorce. 

Some other quick follow-ups about Twitter. When I asked her to cut out or cut back on Twitter for a while, she refused saying it was too much a part of her life and I was asking her to give up to much. I acquiesced but said it was very important to me that she didn’t communicate personally with him via Twitter. Then during a period of time we had set aside for making our relationship better, she sent a tweet back to him. He had texted me around that same time, and I didn’t respond b/c that wasn’t currently my priority. Additionally, I just found out that shortly after I had asked my wife to cut back on Twitter, she paid to have her Twitter account featured in order to get more followers (on multiple occasions). I’m sure she will have a good excuse or reason for this, but it’s just one more example of her doing the exact opposite of what I want behind my back. 

In general, I’ve been doing everything I can to make our relationship and family work, and it seems like she’s still playing the – if everything doesn’t go my way then I want to go separate ways game. In short, she wants out, but she doesn’t want to be responsible for it ending. Well, at least I will be able to honestly tell my kids that I gave every reasonable effort to keep our family together and make things work.


----------



## OnTheBrink

This morning my wife continues to play the innocent ignorance card, which can no longer be accepted since I explicitly stated my concerns and expectations. She wrote me a long note about how she didn’t intend to be disrespectful to me, but that she was just being herself and I was trying to keep her from that. The problem is saying the “there’s nothing I can do to take it back now” for the how manyth time doesn’t mean anything anymore, because I know that instead of changing the behavior she will just say that again the next time around. 

I feel like and have told her that I gave her the opportunity to save face and change her behavior without admitting any impropriety, but since she continued engaging in the behavior, I now need her to acknowledge the inappropriateness to feel there is any hope for it not continuing to occur as well as our marriage in general. She wants to hide behind the ‘tell me what’s morally wrong with this specific action’, to which I have taken the approach of saying whether or not it’s right or wrong it makes me uncomfortable. It bothers me that she so violently fights against me regarding this, which makes me wonder if there’s more to it. She still claimed this morning that she had no clue why I would be upset. When she asked me to clarify my expectations then obviously she was aware that I may not be comfortable with a certain action. Then within minutes of me stating that I didn’t want her doing it, she found a way to justify it in her mind and do it anyway. Whether she justified it or not, there’s no way she wouldn’t think that it was possible I might have an issue with it. In her note she is now trying to twist it to mean I knew you might be upset, but I didn’t think there was any reason you should be. 

I feel like the marriage is over. I have had many deadlines passed. I have laid out my needs and expectations for making things work to which she agrees in the moment, only to throw them out the window as soon as they’re not convenient for her. It is a problem for her to care that much about the details of my brother’s life, and to not be capable of avoiding a closer level of interaction with him. I don’t see any hope for a future with her without her acknowledging that her interaction with my brother has been inappropriate and is currently an issue. As long as she wants to excuse her behavior and only avoid doing very specific actions that I complain about, she will continue to disrespect me by finding other ways to interact with him that I’m not comfortable with.

Any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated.


----------



## OnTheBrink

It is also very difficult to ever understand what the real truth is with my wife. I just get little bits here and there to try to piece together. For example, she says that she was feeling the whole time like what I was asking of her was ridiculous, and that she, as a grown woman should be able to talk to whomever she wanted however she wanted. So it would seem this eventually led to her decision to go against my wishes, though she still claims that everything she did was innocent and she had no desire to defy or disrespect me. She also said she thought I was acting flirtatious with the waitress, so did that cause her to act more flirtatious with my brother to get me back, or is that just her trying to say I did something wrong too. As I told her, if she had a genuine concern about my interaction with the waitress we could certainly talk about that separately, but it did not change my issues with her behavior.

I don’t know – is this just me needing to learn how to interpret the way that women communicate, or is it reasonable for me to expect my wife to be straight-forward with me about the situation?


----------



## Shaggy

In essence she is calling you controlling, which is another word for you asking her to have boundaries and to respect your feelings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Enginerd

Bro's before Ho's! 

Couldn't resist...

You messed up with your EA at work and now your wife is messing with you and using your brother to do it. Just take your brother aside and tell him to stay the $uck away from your wife. If your brother cares about you he will do it.


----------



## Halien

OnTheBrink said:


> She wants to hide behind the ‘tell me what’s morally wrong with this specific action’, to which I have taken the approach of saying whether or not it’s right or wrong it makes me uncomfortable. It bothers me that she so violently fights against me regarding this, which makes me wonder if there’s more to it. She still claimed this morning that she had no clue why I would be upset. When she asked me to clarify my expectations then obviously she was aware that I may not be comfortable with a certain action.


I think it is a mistake to let this come down to a discussion of what is morally right or wrong. Its not about what is right or wrong cuturally, religiously or spiritualy. Its about the marriage. Does it nourish and grow the marriage, or does it tear it down?

You've admitted that the marriage may be over. Why not be direct about it? Tell her that you want to save the marriage, and that your tired of the elementary school games. She either decides if she is in or out of the marriage. If either of you can't see the marriage as a living entity, one where you both work sacrificially to maintain, it won't make it once you reach this stage, I believe. You're allowing her to ask what is right or wrong for HER morally, while forgetting to ask what is wrong or right for the marriage. 

I could see how this would go with my own brother, in regards to the brother issue. I'd have to ask him point blank if he has engaged in innappropriate relationship with his brother's wife, and if he can live with being the person who helps to destroy a marriage. Time to be direct.

Marriage is worth saving. But it is a union of two adults, who have moved past the childish notions that either can follow a script of pushing outside relationships until the place where an outside entity would judge it to be wrong. That outside entity, whether it is religion or the social moral standard that she is referring to, isn't married to her. You are. It would be a different story if you were trying to control her in an unfair way, but you have stressed that you want her to have the freedom to be herself with her friends. Marriage is about balance, and a well defined sense of where our true loyality lay.


----------



## OnTheBrink

Yesterday, while working on finances with my wife, I noticed something she was doodling that looked like my brother’s name. It was written several times in kind of the way you would of someone you loved – one of them had heart shaped lines around it, and this one was kind of crossed out. Upon closer inspection, there was more written and my wife seeing me notice it, informs me that it is a musical group. One that I had never heard of, and I can’t recall her ever mentioning. I did a search later to find out they had had some kind of hit a few years back, but hadn’t really done anything of note in the past year. So when would my wife have become so fond of this band that she would be etching a heart around their name? If in the past – why wouldn’t I have known about? And what could have prompted such a quick fondness so quickly in the present – when they have no current hype? It’s just way too coincidental, that their name written in that way looks very much like my brothers. (It’s probably deja vu, but it almost seems like I remember my wife pointing that out to me at some point.) At any rate, she immediately asks me what’s wrong. I try to stick to the task at hand, but from then on she seems to want to get the conversation over with. 

At the end of the conversation, she folds up the paper she had been writing on, and puts it in her purse. Was this to not let me further inspect it? I make a mental note to take a look later, but didn’t want to over prioritize this. A bit later she went out to get something to eat, taking her purse with her. When she returned, I found a quick moment to take a look inside, and didn’t see it, but didn’t have time to check thoroughly then. Finally, after she was asleep, I thoroughly checked her purse to confirm it was no longer there. I checked the trash cans throughout the house to see that she didn’t throw it away there. So she specifically threw it away while she was out, so I would never be able to find it. So the chances of this being coincidental, essentially become zero, when factoring in the minuscule chance that there was a legitimate reason for her to conceal the paper in her purse, and then go out of her way to destroy it as soon as she got a chance. 

I chose not to bring it up with her, because I knew she would just have her excuses, start a fight to avoid talking about it, and try to make me feel stupid and crazy for thinking anything at all. Instead, when she brought up the fact, someone in my family was having a birthday, I chose to use that opportunity to bring up my concerns for how she would interact with my brother. I informed her that I had asked and found there wasn’t going to be a get-together, but that we could just drop by to give our wishes. It turns out the only time we would be able to do so, was when my brother would be there. So I suggested, it would probably be better for me to just go without her this time, so she didn’t have to be put in the awkward position of not interacting too much with him, when there wouldn’t be many other people there to interact with. She immediately gets upset and defensive, and starts challenging why she shouldn’t be able to.

This is over! I think she probably started this game to get back at me, and now has some kind of inappropriate bond she doesn’t want to give up. It really doesn’t matter what her intent and motives are/were though. The real show stoppers here are her lack of respect for me, and my inability to trust her. If she can’t be honest with me about the problem, how can we work together to resolve it and more importantly how can I trust her with anything else going forward?


----------



## Sbrown

IMO, you need to quit bringing it up, you have stated your position and she has picked him over you. Key logger, voice activated recorder with heavy duty Velcro, check how many times a day she is calling/texting him. It is time to investigate! Act normal until you get the evidence. From what I have read, there is NO doubt that the two of them are engaging in inappropriate behavior. DO NOT mention it to your brother. ACT NORMAL! If you find evidence of a PA (i bet you do, IF you look), immediately contact a lawyer, DO NOT MOVE OUT!!!!!!, it becomes a business transaction! Separate your finances immediately upon finding the incriminating evidence. I don't think she started it to get back at you, she put herself in an inappropriate situation and thinks she is getting away with it! It is time to take the blinders off and gather evidence.


----------



## OnTheBrink

I could be wrong, but I don't think anything physical has happened (would be logistically difficult unless one of them went well out of their way to make it happen), and I don't think either would overtly do anything against me but rather are flirting with the idea of it.

Regardless, I don't have time to spend investigating, nor do I care to fight with all my wife's excuses for whatever I do find. The bottom line is that I have reached a point where I've realized this isn't going to work. So I will now be spending my extra time focusing on how we can best split.

For anyone who's bored and wants some additional history on some of the issues I've had with her, and the struggles I've gone through to try to make this work you can open the URLs below. (Warning - a lot to read there) I will start writing about my divorce planning on the first of these.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...ince-considering-divorce-little-progress.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/44030-tired-being-held-hostage.html


----------



## Chaparral

Not letting your brother knoiw what you rare feeling is a betrayal of his trust. When it comes out you are divorcing, he is going to find out he was part of the problem. If he has no idea he wasa problem he will be devestated.

You absolutely have to have a man to man talk with him.

You simply hide your feelings to avoid conflict. Not asking your wife to see her doodles was cowardly and she saw it as such. She doesn't see you manning up. That is why she is flirting with other people.

You need to read Married Man Sex Life (not a sex manual) and No More Mister Nice Guy immediately. You simply do not understand the dynamic between men and women.

Remember, if your brother is innocent, he may take your break up as his fault, talk to him and tell him to avoid your wife for the forseeable future.

Haven't read your other threads yet but your reason to break up your kids home at this point sounds totally self serving.


----------



## OnTheBrink

The divorce is not about that - and I won't let the latest issue / last straw be promoted as the reason for it. I have planned to talk to my brother and still will, but I reached this point before that happened, and whatever the result of that discussion is, it will have no impact on the decision. I have gone through plenty of conflict - my wife is the one that won't allow us to get to the real issues by escalating our fights before we can get to that point.

I did look at the doodles in front of my wife and she excused it...I was really more concerned with what she did with them than what they were. The fact she went out of her way to dispose them where I couldn't find them is what tells me she had something to hide more than inspecting the doodles themselves could have.

I appreciate your devil's advocate point of view, but I can't see how this is self-serving. I have sacrificed much over the last couple of years, and really given everything I reasonably can over the last six months or sonto try to make this work out of hope that my kids could have a more normal/ideal family life. I have worked to be a man that she can and should respect, but she remains entrenched in her selfish and destructive behavior. There seems to be an idea out there that being a man means accepting however your woman treats you and not letting it bother you. And a trend among some women (especially my wife) that they can have their cake and eat it too - that is enjoy the benefits of marriage, while still having all the freedom of a single, independent woman. That combination simply doesn't work.


----------



## OnTheBrink

Thinking more about this, I don't think talking with my brother directly is the best idea given the pending divorce. That will unfairly make him feel at blame. My wife was using him as a pawn.

At the start of our relationship, my wife did the same with one of my friends - getting him to give her lots of attention. I stopped having anything to do with this guy as a result, which affected other friendships of mine. At the time, all my blame was on him, and only more recently did I realize how my wife used this to manipulate me away from my friends. I refuse to let her cause similar division in my family.


----------



## Chaparral

If she is drawing hearts around his name, don't be surprised if he doesn't end up being your kids dad after the divorce.


----------



## anonim

OnTheBrink said:


> Thinking more about this, I don't think talking with my brother directly is the best idea given the pending divorce. That will unfairly make him feel at blame. My wife was using him as a pawn.
> 
> At the start of our relationship, my wife did the same with one of my friends - getting him to give her lots of attention. I stopped having anything to do with this guy as a result, which affected other friendships of mine. At the time, all my blame was on him, and only more recently did I realize how my wife used this to manipulate me away from my friends. I refuse to let her cause similar division in my family.


If you dont tell your bro, he cant reject her ****/call her on it.

Stop being scared. read no more mr nice guy, i promise it will help you.


----------



## OnTheBrink

chapparal said:


> If she is drawing hearts around his name, don't be surprised if he doesn't end up being your kids dad after the divorce.


I feel compelled to emphasize that my kids dad will never change regardless of if I stay with my wife. However, I do get your point, and the fear of who my wife might end up after me and how that could influence my children has been one of the big motivators for me trying thus far. If she just starts a dysfunctional relationship with someone else then my kids will have to deal with that stress on top of the stress of divorce. But, do I stay in an unhealthy, unfulfilling marriage just for the sake of trying to protect my kids from what damage my wife could inflict without me?


----------



## OnTheBrink

anonim said:


> If you dont tell your bro, he cant reject her ****/call her on it.
> 
> Stop being scared. read no more mr nice guy, i promise it will help you.


I'm not really scared, so much as trying to avoid a big family drama

In the past year or so, it the strain of the bad marriage has started to show to our families, and recently part of my attempts to make things better involved making a gesture that showed our families we were together and moving in the right direction. So I guess I'm hesitant to reveal a serious issue and was hoping we could just deal with it internally. I guess I also find it embarassing to admit to my bro that I think my wife's been trying to get his attention. 

All that being said, I see that this piece of advice keeps resurfacing among the various responses, so I'd probably be foolish to ignore it.

Any suggestions about how best to approach this?

(I don't see my brother all that often - usually at family gatherings, or occasionally we will plan to do something together and these are usually the times we talk.)


----------



## Sbrown

OnTheBrink said:


> I feel compelled to emphasize that my kids dad will never change regardless of if I stay with my wife. However, I do get your point, and the fear of who my wife might end up after me and how that could influence my children has been one of the big motivators for me trying thus far. If she just starts a dysfunctional relationship with someone else then my kids will have to deal with that stress on top of the stress of divorce. *But, do I stay in an unhealthy, unfulfilling marriage just for the sake of trying to protect my kids from what damage my wife could inflict without me?*


NO! Kids would rather be FROM a broken home than IN one!


----------



## Sbrown

OnTheBrink said:


> I'm not really scared, so much as trying to avoid a big family drama
> 
> In the past year or so, it the strain of the bad marriage has started to show to our families, and recently part of my attempts to make things better involved making a gesture that showed our families we were together and moving in the right direction. So I guess I'm hesitant to reveal a serious issue and was hoping we could just deal with it internally. I guess I also find it embarassing to admit to my bro that I think my wife's been trying to get his attention.
> 
> All that being said, I see that this piece of advice keeps resurfacing among the various responses, so I'd probably be foolish to ignore it.
> 
> Any suggestions about how best to approach this?
> 
> (I don't see my brother all that often - usually at family gatherings, or occasionally we will plan to do something together and these are usually the times we talk.)


The problem with this is. What if your bro is reciprocating? He might be just as into her as she is to him. If it were me I would investigate and try to find out the depth of their "affair" before talking to anyone!


----------



## christeeanna

Sorry to hear about all that drama but I had to comment because it sounds just like my xhusband. He used to love having my brother and my brother's wife come visit. I believe my husband and my brother's wife had a thing before we were married. That should really be none of my business but the way they would flirt with eachother made me so upset. And when I told my husband about it all he did was tell me I was crazy. I think when your spouse is that insensitive to you that you really need to consider that they do not care about you. Actions speak louder than words. Your wife can say all kinds of things but watch how she behaves.


----------



## Chaparral

Sbrown said:


> NO! Kids would rather be FROM a broken home than IN one!


I'm courious if you can back that up with anything other than your belief. Since study after study refutes your statment.


----------



## Sbrown

chapparal said:


> I'm courious if you can back that up with anything other than your belief. Since study after study refutes your statment.


Besides my own experience? Lol I never claimed "studies show" do you have studies that would indicate kids would rather be IN a disfunctional family? How do you get a scientific study of the opinion of kids?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Google the effects of divorce on kids. I'm sure there are cases where kids should not be around one or both of their parents but generally speaking the statistics point out that divorced kids don't do as well in life as kids from non broken homes, even when its not the happiest of homes.

One of the saddest things I ever heard was when my cousins son and his friend told me "all the divorced kids hang out together at school. This was in 1987 when they were working for me just out of high school. I thought they were really going to make it having found great jobs having kids and great wives. Both are now divorced. One is an alcholic from what I can tell. The other started doing dope (crack I think) lost his house, wife , kids and eventually his life.


----------



## EleGirl

OnTheBrink said:


> I feel compelled to emphasize that my kids dad will never change regardless of if I stay with my wife. However, I do get your point, and the fear of who my wife might end up after me and how that could influence my children has been one of the big motivators for me trying thus far. If she just starts a dysfunctional relationship with someone else then my kids will have to deal with that stress on top of the stress of divorce. *But, do I stay in an unhealthy, unfulfilling marriage just for the sake of trying to protect my kids from what damage my wife could inflict without me*?


I'm not an advocate of staying in a broken marriage. BUT... when there is concern that the other parent will inflict harm on the children... yes that is a reason to stay in the marriage. The reason is to protect your children.

I did this with my son until I felt he was old enough and had learned enough to be able to handle being with his father some % of the time.

Now I don't know if your wife would get into relationships that harmed your children. That is another issue.


----------



## Sbrown

chapparal said:


> Google the effects of divorce on kids. I'm sure there are cases where kids should not be around one or both of their parents but generally speaking the statistics point out that divorced kids don't do as well in life as kids from non broken homes, even when its not the happiest of homes.
> 
> One of the saddest things I ever heard was when my cousins son and his friend told me "all the divorced kids hang out together at school. This was in 1987 when they were working for me just out of high school. I thought they were really going to make it having found great jobs having kids and great wives. Both are now divorced. One is an alcholic from what I can tell. The other started doing dope (crack I think) lost his house, wife , kids and eventually his life.


lol I guess I feel like a home can be broken divorce or not. I can't imagine any kid choosing two parents fighting and not getting along over divorce. As a child that experienced that I can tell you that my siblings and I were greatful for the peace of our parents divorce. And I know several "kids" on dope with intact parents.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OnTheBrink

chapparal said:


> One of the saddest things I ever heard was when my cousins son and his friend told me "all the divorced kids hang out together at school. This was in 1987 when they were working for me just out of high school. I thought they were really going to make it having found great jobs having kids and great wives. Both are now divorced. One is an alcholic from what I can tell. The other started doing dope (crack I think) lost his house, wife , kids and eventually his life.


Okay - obviously you are anti-divorce, but you can easily come up with examples of kids who don't do well in life from dysfunctional families as well as even healthy ones.

One of the most well-balanced, successful people I know comes from a broken family. Albeit, one where the dad remarried and the second marriage was successful long term, and where this happened when the kids were at a young age.


----------



## OnTheBrink

EleGirl said:


> I'm not an advocate of staying in a broken marriage. BUT... when there is concern that the other parent will inflict harm on the children... yes that is a reason to stay in the marriage. The reason is to protect your children.
> 
> I did this with my son until I felt he was old enough and had learned enough to be able to handle being with his father some % of the time.
> 
> Now I don't know if your wife would get into relationships that harmed your children. That is another issue.


Not physical harm, but possibly emotional harm. Really mostly worried that they will acquire some of the same bad traits as she has. (for example: only uses threats or bribes to get what she wants as opposed to reasoning or logic - never compromising: either she gets what she wants and is okay, or she begrudges not getting her way and makes everyone miserable)

I do think it's quite possible though if my wife doesn't get some kind of help, that she could start another dysfunctional relationship with someone else - and it's possible that person could be abusive. Her ex was controlling and bordering on abusive, so she seems to be more attracted to the macho - jerk kind. Yes - I know I need to not be Mr. Nice Guy, but that was so long established that efforts to the contrary are not well-received. I will keep pushing though...I know I need to be consistent and stay the course.

All that being said, my wife does care about the children and would never knowingly do anything to harm them. For the most part, she seems to do well with them when it's just her and them, and I do well when it's just me and them. It's when we attempt being together with them that things don't go well.


----------



## Chaparral

OnTheBrink said:


> Okay - obviously you are anti-divorce, but you can easily come up with examples of kids who don't do well in life from dysfunctional families as well as even healthy ones.
> 
> One of the most well-balanced, successful people I know comes from a broken family. Albeit, one where the dad remarried and the second marriage was successful long term, and where this happened when the kids were at a young age.


I am not anti divorce, I am pro parents growing up and getting alon to raise their children and leaving their infated egos at the door. Angry fights are just ego battles. Learn how to be strong and still get along.


----------



## OnTheBrink

Let's shift the discussion about whether to divorce or stay in the marriage to my more general thread at the link below, and leave this one to focus on the original topic. Quotes can still be copied from here to the other if desired.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...ince-considering-divorce-little-progress.html


----------



## OnTheBrink

Well my wife and I had a good talk about things this weekend. She is now acting receptive to my concerns and saying she will make a point to limit her interaction with him. We discussed how this would need to be more so in the near term to break the current trend, and eventually should go back to the original "normal" level of interaction.

It seems like we can never have a good discussion about something sensitive unless we get in a big fight first...hopefully that can change. We also have had many of these discussions to resolve fights/issues along the way, only to have the same things reoccur. So while the words let me feel a little hope, it will be the actions that really matter.


----------



## OnTheBrink

Also, results of initial monitoring up to this point have come up clean. If anything suspicious were to surface I could proceed to more in depth monitoring. I do see going through this how stressful this stuff can be to worry about...going through all the possible scenarios in my head. Don't women just love showing you how it feels?

I will still talk to my brother when I get a chance, keeping it more general, but will be more direct with him as necessary if his actions warrant it. If in addition, my wife is on board to stop soliciting the attention, I think the issue can be resolved without unnecessary family drama.

My wife will still not admit any ill motive or action on her part, saying she understands how it makes me feel, so she will change to be respectful of that. I know there is more to it, so it leaves me to wonder if it was more the making me jealous/getting even or an actual inappropriate bond developing. While apparently some of both, I do believe both from what she is saying and my intuition being in the situation that nothing physical was occurring. And ultimately what she is admitting to is the truth she wants to live, with and as long as she changes her behavior to live up to it that is all that should matter.


----------



## OnTheBrink

Here’s a “quick” recap of what’s transpired since the last post.

My wife’s behavior with him on the surface has been mostly compliant, but she still gives me an attitude about it and continues to take subtle actions to solicit his attention. For example at a family gathering in the last month or two, she had one of our children wear a shirt for a basketball team he’s a big fan of, even though the season had not started yet. She also had suddenly become a big fan of the team last year and had been tweeting about the team (something he does) which he would often either tweet back about or comment on/ ask about later. I am also a fan of the team, but don’t have time to follow them that closely. In the past I had always thought it would be cool if she would watch games with me, but she would only do so on rare occasions if they happened to be in the playoffs. Now still she wants to watch every game, even if I’m not available to, and still tweets about the team. On a recent occasion, she chose to watch a game without me, when I said I would rather watch something else, and tweeted about it. And just the other day, when she was saying she wanted to watch the game, I said if she was really just that interested in watching on her own that was fine, but I didn’t want her to tweet about it. She asked why and even though it should have been obvious, I said b/c he follows the team and tweets about them. She then started on about there was nothing wrong with doing it, and she had never done anything wrong and blah blah bah, and challenging me to prove otherwise. This was leading up to Thanksgiving, so quickly led to talking about how she should interact with him then. I allowed myself to get into an argument with her that started going around in circles before I finally excused myself from it. At least I did not raise my voice or say anything mean. I just pointed out that her focus was inappropriately on how much she would be able to interact with him. I stated that as long as she refused to acknowledge that she had done anything wrong before and continued excusing the things she continued to do now, this would remain an issue and I was not okay with it.

In fights at various points my wife has sarcastically, and exaggeratingly said she was sexually attracted to him, and had feelings for him. She will say sorry in this fashion and then later claim to have apologized. Similarly, she’ll say she acknowledged things regarding him sometimes but then at other times claim she never did anything wrong. It seems she’s wanting to be able to claim she came clean (possibly more for her than me), while never admitting to any specific wrong action, so she can still always deny things later. The most I’ve gotten from her in a rare genuine conversation is that she never intended anything, or thought anything ill, but understood why it bothered me and thus would try to accommodate. She has said things like ‘If that were true I wouldn’t want anything to do with her’ apparently a factor in her not coming clean. She’ll also say that she needs me to not think that is true about her for us to work. And again, if she would actually live up to the truth she wants to be believed, I could go along with it. But wanting me to play along while she continues inappropriate behavior and lying about it is not acceptable.


----------



## OnTheBrink

So Thanksgiving Day, we go to her family’s house first as usual and everything goes well enough there. Now when it’s time to go to my family’s house, she asks if my other brother who had been out of town is going to be there. I realize this is at least the 3rd or 4th time I’ve answered “as far as I know” b/w the night before and earlier that morning. I am reminded that one of the things she’s been doing since lessening her interaction with the one brother is increasing her interaction with the other, and she’s started asking about the other more when she used to ask about the one. When I mentioned this before, she claims that she is talking with him as much as she always has (which is not true). She’s trying to do two things with this: 1) Continue trying to justify that it is okay for her to be close to my brothers, and 2) Make an issue of me asking her to back off rather than complying with it. As such, I advised her that she should be interacting with both of my brothers about the same amount, and not over compensating by spending more time with the other. She immediately gets defensive saying she hasn’t and wasn’t doing anything wrong and that I’m being ridiculous and blah blah blah.This time I didn’t take the bait and refused to argue about it. But it was an issue for me that by continuing to deny there was a problem she was refusing to get on the same page with me regarding how to handle it. Once we arrived he started his now typical practice of gravitating towards her. She wasn’t paying him much attention though while I was there, and he went into the other room to watch football. A little bit later I felt the need to go check on my kids outside to make sure they were safe. I was pretty sure he would take that chance to try talking wtih her. So when I got back in, I asked her if he did, which she denied in a vague way. 

I started thinking through some of the advice I had received here, and knew that even though she was a major cause of the problem, expecting her to do the dirty work of fixing it was not only not going to happen, but I wasn’t doing my job as the man to make sure the issue was addressed. So I decided it was time I had a man to man talk with my brother about the issue. I didn’t rush to do it, but took some time to write out and organize my thoughts ahead of time, as well as do a quick pro con list as to whether I should go ahead and proceed. I should have and wanted to talk with my brother before, but a good time never came, and I never made the time. Nevertheless I couldn’t let it slip any longer. At a break in the football action I asked him to go outside with me to talk. I quickly and directly got to the point. He claimed that he never intended anything and wasn’t thinking of her in that way. He mentioned some of the same things my wife said about why they got along well, so these things were apparently mentioned in conversation between them in an attempt to justify them talking so much. It is clear that this wasn’t talked about directly though, as my brother was asking if this was coming from her or from me, and my wife on previous occasions had asked me things regarding what my brother was thinking/saying. My brother almost right away said that if he was doing something that made me uncomfortable he would stop. He asked about what things I had an issue with, and what I expected from him going forward. Before I had a chance to answer, we got called back in the house, so I said I would call him later to not leave things hanging.

My brother at some point was beating himself up in the original conversation and I mentioned that my wife had a portion of the blame for her actions, as well as myself for not bringing it up sooner. I second-guessed myself after for perhaps revealing that my wife was okay with the behavior and it was just me that had an issue. Unless/until the marriage was officially ending, I didn’t want to broadcast any issues b/w my wife and I. When I called him later, I quickly recovered this by shifting the issue with my wife to when she had purposefully acted super cool about his divorce in order to get the details out of him. I said that she was responsible for that, which I saw as when the issue began and a major cause for it. She set herself up to be a confidant regarding his relationship problems, and it was easy for him to turn to anyone that acted like they cared when he was going through such a hard time in his life. He again asked what he should do. I said that the thing that bothered me most was any communication when I wasn’t around, specifically him finding out things about her or my kids from what she was posting on Twitter. As such I said I would like him to stop following her, and that I didn’t want him going out of his way to talk to her when we were all together. 

He said he would do what he needed to do, and I could see already by this morning that he had un-followed her. It was quite refreshing to see someone clearly show their loyalty when questioned and to have his actions back up his words. In contrast I’ve been addressing this issue with my wife for over a year now, and she’s hardly shown any loyalty even in her words, while her actions have been clearly opposing. 

One other thing, is that my brother volunteered that he had told her a story (while I was out). When I questioned her about what he had talked to her about, she still denied that he talked to her. So she is again caught in a lie. If/when I confront her with this, she will attempt to justify it by saying my mom was there with her, so she didn’t consider this him talking to her directly.


----------



## sharkeey

You seem to be entirely too controlling and focusing your efforts in the wrong area.

"Don't talk to him, don't tweet with him, don't tweet about his favorite team, tell me what that doodling was all about, why are you talking to my other brother more, is that a cover up", etc.

You have no significant evidence that anything is going on and by trying to crush what you believe are symptoms is not dealing with the real underlying problem if there even is one.

Stop bugging her about talking to either of your brothers, or about tweeting, or about doodling, or about her favorite sports team or band, or anything else even remotely related to those types of things.

If you suspect something, then do the usual.. keyloggers, VARs in the car, accessing email accounts, even hire a PI if you're so inclined.

I think you just might be over reacting to the point of paranoia, then again you may not be but whatever the case maybe you're not going to squash an affair by telling her not to talk to your brother at public affairs and inquiring about doodling.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

From where I am standing, she is a demented, gaslighting, lying, manipulating, scheming POS.

You should have had it out with your brother long ago, and told him to put his piece back in his pants, and to back off. If my brother was acting inappropriately with my wife, I would punch his head in.

It is good to see your brother is happy to drop her like a hot potato (apparently) now that you asked him. Though he shouldn't have even needed to be asked.

As for her, what _good_ is she?


----------



## OnTheBrink

sharkeey said:


> You seem to be entirely too controlling and focusing your efforts in the wrong area.
> 
> "Don't talk to him, don't tweet with him, don't tweet about his favorite team, tell me what that doodling was all about, why are you talking to my other brother more, is that a cover up", etc.
> 
> You have no significant evidence that anything is going on and by trying to crush what you believe are symptoms is not dealing with the real underlying problem if there even is one.
> 
> Stop bugging her about talking to either of your brothers, or about tweeting, or about doodling, or about her favorite sports team or band, or anything else even remotely related to those types of things.
> 
> If you suspect something, then do the usual.. keyloggers, VARs in the car, accessing email accounts, even hire a PI if you're so inclined.
> 
> I think you just might be over reacting to the point of paranoia, then again you may not be but whatever the case maybe you're not going to squash an affair by telling her not to talk to your brother at public affairs and inquiring about doodling.


Really? Are you serious???

And O.J. Simpson is an innocent man b/c he wasn't found guilty in a court of law.

I don't have anything to prove. She engaged in behavior that was innappropriate from my viewpoint and regardless of anyone else's view, that as I her husband was not comfortable with. I advised her of this and set boundaries accordingly, and she responded with begrudgingly remaining somewhat within the boundaries while continuing to seek other ways to maintain more of a connection with my brother. 

If I'm more senstive about something now b/c of her prior indiscretions, the onus is on her to respectfully discuss her point of view, not defy my right to question. Similarly I am more controlling about this right now than I normally would be.


----------



## OnTheBrink

SpurnedLonelyHusband said:


> From where I am standing, she is a demented, gaslighting, lying, manipulating, scheming POS.
> 
> You should have had it out with your brother long ago, and told him to put his piece back in his pants, and to back off. If my brother was acting inappropriately with my wife, I would punch his head in.
> 
> It is good to see your brother is happy to drop her like a hot potato (apparently) now that you asked him. Though he shouldn't have even needed to be asked.
> 
> As for her, what _good_ is she?


Yes - I know I should have talked to my brother much sooner, as expecting the situation to clear on it's own was not likely to happen especially with my wife continuing to look for ways to solicit his attention.

I do not condone or excuse his behavior in this, but I do understand that, especially in his position, how it was easy to entertain such attention. I appreciate his taking repsonsibillity and action, but actually feel bad that he doesn't seem to realize how much my wife was working to solicit the attention from him. But she of course is innocent unless you can come up with physical proof, right?


----------



## Chaparral

Its hard to tell what she is up to. It might be as simple as her needing to make you jealous all the way up to her being a serial cheater. After all, she was drawing hearts around your brothers name in front of you. You also may be one of thoe guys who is overly jealous.

You have no piece of mind.

Get at least one VAR for her car. Cheaters always talk in the car. If you can put another VAR in the house where she might use the phone a lot. Be prepared at how bad or good it might be however.

Check her phone/text account to see who she is calling/texting alot. If she uses the computer, put a keylogger on it to see who/what she is doing on there.

You have to do something to settle your mind or you are going to ruin your marriage/family/you.


----------



## sharkeey

OnTheBrink said:


> Really? Are you serious???


I'm completely serious. 



OnTheBrink said:


> And O.J. Simpson is an innocent man b/c he wasn't found guilty in a court of law.


I never said your wife is innocent I simply said that you don't have enough evidence to find her guilty. 



OnTheBrink said:


> I don't have anything to prove. She engaged in behavior that was innappropriate from my viewpoint and regardless of anyone else's view, that as I her husband was not comfortable with.


And you had an EA that was about to turn into a PA and gave her an ultimatum which if she ignored would lead to you cheating on her.

You're at LEAST as guilty as she is.



OnTheBrink said:


> I advised her of this and set boundaries accordingly, and she responded with begrudgingly remaining somewhat within the boundaries while continuing to seek other ways to maintain more of a connection with my brother.


You talk about boundaries yet you don't seem to find yourself at fault for your own EA that almost went PA. 



OnTheBrink said:


> If I'm more senstive about something now b/c of her prior indiscretions, the onus is on her to respectfully discuss her point of view, not defy my right to question.


Maybe she's more sensitive too because of YOUR indiscretions. You HAD an affair, albeit an emotional one, which many experienced and seasoned posters here on this board feel is way worse than a physical affair yet you seem to completely dismiss it.



OnTheBrink said:


> Similarly I am more controlling about this right now than I normally would be.


I get that you're more sensitive, and concerned, and suspect an affair or the strong possibility that one will develop. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you're going about it in a rather ineffective way. Prohibiting her from conversing with your brother at a family event is akin to saying "the fire is over there, rather than pouring water on it until it's extinguished let's just sprinkle some water on it and look the other way".

You need to fact find and then if anything definite is discovered, THEN bring the gavel down. All you're doing now is whining incessently and if there's an affair brewing, your actions are doing nothing to stop it and everything to make your wife think you're just a pain in the butt which will drive her further away from you and towards some other guy.


----------



## OnTheBrink

I do view my EA as more of an attempt at an open marriage, though you could say that’s how I justify it to myself. (I was honest with her about my intentions before and my actions after.) Since I grew up being taught against divorce, I had a divorce is not an option mindset, so at that point that was the best way I could think of to continue supporting my family despite an unsatisfactory marriage. Over the last few years since, I have learned a lot about relationships including the current socially accepted practices regarding marriage/divorce. I do now realize that I should’ve forced the issues to a conclusion, and divorced if an acceptable resolution was not reached. I have also acknowledged all my faults in the relationship reaching the point that it did. And specifically in the last year I determined to make every reasonable effort to make the marriage work, so if it didn’t I could walk away without second guessing myself or wondering what if.

…

Regardless of what her intentions are/were, the behavior is not acceptable to me – even if she is just trying to make me jealous. She pulled a similar thing with a buddy of mine toward the start of our relationship. Not only was that friendship destroyed, but it strained my relationships with everyone in that circle of friends, which included people I had known since childhood. Now she’s f’n with my family and I will not allow her to get between my brother and I or cause division in my family.


----------



## OnTheBrink

This morning my son brings me a Christmas list to send Santa that he worked on with my wife yesterday. He wanted me to read it and see if I wanted to add anything to it. I saw the various things he had written down for him and his brother and a single entry for my wife - a t-shirt of the aforementiond sports team.

May I add that my wife has always had a general disdain for sports and in the past when she would watch during the playoffs, she was mostly interested in seeing if there were any celebrities in attendance.

So now, despite the fact I had just made an issue of her showing so much interest all the sudden, she puts this down as the one thing she would want for Christmas, which is basically, a giant F U to me.


----------



## Chaparral

The bottom line is that you two are not going to work this out alone. You need to search out and find a pro marriage counselor that has a track record of saving marriages. There are many bad marriage counselors.

Check this websiteout and see if they have counselors in your area. They may also have online counseling. 

You both need individual counseling if what you say about you both is reliable.


----------



## Chaparral

Regearding the present, forget the jersey, get her a Pandora braclet or something. The thing I like about the bracelet is you add to it over time and you always have a fallback gift she likes.


----------



## Shaggy

I can'r recall have you read Not Just Friends yet?


----------



## sharkeey

OnTheBrink said:


> I do view my EA as more of an attempt at an open marriage, though you could say that’s how I justify it to myself. (I was honest with her about my intentions before and my actions after.).


Your emotional affair was your attempt to have an open marriage?

Despite the fact that it was a unilateral decision to which she was vehomently opposed?

The concept of an open marriage is that both parties agree and are willing to do it. Not one person deciding they want to go screw someone else if their spouse doesn't meet their demands.



OnTheBrink said:


> I will not allow her to get between my brother and I or cause division in my family


You won't "allow her". She's not a possession of yours, she's a person with her own thoughts, feelings, motivations and ability to make decisions. You married her but you don't own her.

I'm starting to get why she's not listening to you and is seeking solace elsewhere.



OnTheBrink said:


> she puts this down as the one thing she would want for Christmas, which is basically, a giant F U to me.


I understand why she's doing this and it's sad that you don't. 

Like I said, your suspicions regarding her and your brother may be spot on but you are handling this thing totally wrong and you still don't acknowledge your own faults in this and continue to justify a past emotional affair as being ok.


----------



## OnTheBrink

sharkeey said:


> Your emotional affair was your attempt to have an open marriage?
> 
> Despite the fact that it was a unilateral decision to which she was vehomently opposed?
> 
> The concept of an open marriage is that both parties agree and are willing to do it. Not one person deciding they want to go screw someone else if their spouse doesn't meet their demands.


I advised on several occasions over a significant period of time that my romantic and sexual needs weren't being met. She ignored this and refused to make any effort to meet them. I then started advising her that if she wasn't willing or able to meet my needs, that I would look elsewhere to have them met. She made no objections, and still made no effort to meet my needs. Only after I actually found someone else to meet my needs did she object. You can call it whatever you like - it's an arrangement that doesn't work for me. 




sharkeey said:


> You won't "allow her". She's not a possession of yours, she's a person with her own thoughts, feelings, motivations and ability to make decisions. You married her but you don't own her.
> 
> I'm starting to get why she's not listening to you and is seeking solace elsewhere.
> 
> I understand why she's doing this and it's sad that you don't.


I thought my wording was clear here, but what I'm saying is that I'm determined to not fall into the same trap twice. I will do whatever is in my power to protect my relationships with my children and my extended family. I cannot control her choices - she is responsible for them, but I don't have to accept them as being okay for me.



sharkeey said:


> Like I said, your suspicions regarding her and your brother may be spot on but you are handling this thing totally wrong and you still don't acknowledge your own faults in this and continue to justify a past emotional affair as being ok.


I have acknowledged my faults - just maybe not in the way she or you think I should given the _atrocity_ I've committed. I could accept full responsibility for all our marriage problems and fall at her feet begging for mercy. Then she would likely check back in feeling like she could resume the position of total control she had at the start of the marriage. I'm not willing to do that b/c aside from being unfair to me personally, this would model an unhealthy relationship dynamic for our children, as well as, further perpetuate a dysfunctional environment for them to grow up in.

When I signed on a dotted line, that did not make me her property to neglect and only dust off when she wanted to show off her perfect family. She did not fulfill her portion of the contract, so I will have the contract dissolved.


----------



## OnTheBrink

chapparal said:


> The bottom line is that you two are not going to work this out alone. You need to search out and find a pro marriage counselor that has a track record of saving marriages. There are many bad marriage counselors.
> 
> Check this websiteout and see if they have counselors in your area. They may also have online counseling.
> 
> You both need individual counseling if what you say about you both is reliable.


We did the marriage counseling for about a year, before she refused to continue going. I started seeing an IC at the same time and continued for another year after. Since she was done with MC, I suggested attending a marriage strengthening class offerred by our church. She also would not go this route. At this point I'm not interested in starting over with counseling regarding the issues either.

I've tried everything from counseling, to books, to seminars, to getways and marriage retreats. The bottom line is it takes two to make it work. Since she's not participating, I'm shifting my focus to how to best move forward. Of course there will always be more things I can try, but I'm done sending good money/time/energy chasing bad. It's time to seek divorce counseling!

BTW, I really appreciate your challenging me to push myself a little further before giving up, and I'm a much better person because of it!!!


----------



## EleGirl

So you have tried many things and she has just checked out on them... why is she still with you?

Have you asked her that? If so what does she say?

Is she a SAHM? or does she have a job outside the home?


----------



## PanchoVilla

Collect more evidences and stop behaving jelously. Use the advise from people in CWI. I wish I had found this forum after finding some weird country music hidden in my wife night table. She always hated country music. To make it a short story I smashed those CD's with a hammer, throwed the pieces in a bag and handled them to the OMW along with phone records and other evidences. That was the end of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jake_2333

Any update?
I read all the topic
I would like to know if this beta has finally dropped his **** wife or she is still torturing him


----------

