# If your marriage has never been sexless . . .



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Why do you think that is?

Personally, I don't think my dh would tolerate it. And it would not occur to me to do it.

My gosh, I am always begging him for attention. Why would I ever give up the surest means of getting it?

Is this actually the key, that the man is a bit distant? But he is very good to the woman, and so she just wants to be close to him?

Do you have any idea why your marriage has not experienced something that apparently is common?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Well I'm not married anymore but in the 8 years we were together it was never sexless. Idk why. I guess sex was a part of our relationship. It's also the fact that he wss my husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lace5262 (Oct 13, 2010)

jld said:


> Do you have any idea why your marriage has not experienced something that apparently is common?


IDK, we've had an amazing sex life together since we were teens - over 20 years now. We both love to play, it's a big part of our lives. I'm very sexual - I've had sexual feelings ever since I was 9 and having O's in my sleep. I always thought everybody was like that :slap:

I had NO idea sexless marriages even existed until I started reading forums. Then a couple years ago, my SIL was making fun of my BIL for keeping him in a sexless marriage .. Yes she thinks it's funny


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I've read posts from female TAM posters who correlate getting help with housework with providing sex. I'm not one of those women who needs the dishes washed and the carpet vacuumed in order to have sex. Frankly, I don't see a connection between a clean home and sex. My mind doesn't work that way and I'm not making a value judgment about those who think that way. It's just not me. If I have sex it's because I'm turned on and I want it. I don't care if the house is messy.

Everyone has minor faults and shortcomings. I know I do. My H does. But if he gets me turned on, I'm good to go. He's so giving and generous in bed as he is in other parts of our shared lives that I don't deny him. Denying him would be shooting myself in the foot because I'd be depriving myself of a good time too. I don't throw the baby out with the bath water. 

I can have sex for the physical enjoyment. However, I need to be emotionally connected to the person so I'm not one of those people who could have NSA sex or friends with benefits type sex. I need to be attracted to my H to have sex. He's strong in the areas where he needs to be and a nice guy in the areas where he needs to be. He's a good mix of alpha and beta. He's no pushover and I like that. I also like that he's not domineering and into playing mind games. It also helps greatly that he's fit. He's had pretty much the same weight as when I've met him. The physical attraction is a huge part of me wanting to have sex with him. 

There was a period in my life where I was in Super Mommy mode. Everything I did revolved around my role as a mom so I had little personal time for my husband. Gradually, I came to the realization, after some not so subtle hints from my H, that I was ignoring us as a couple. I realized we had gone from a couple centric marriage to a kid centric marriage. So I took it upon myself to change the dynamic in our marriage.

I had no idea people had marriages where they hadn't had sex for years. Sounds naive, but I was truly surprised.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jld....Even though it doesn't come up on this board that much....there are a lot of sexless marriages where the wife is HD and the husband is LD. 

Most sexless marriages I have heard about are a result of a mismatched sex drive.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Looking at the first 25 years where we had a fulfilling sex life I would say it was largely because the stress level of my wife was lower. She had time to give to herself, her daughters, and yours truly. Time was never an issue with me. Stress likewise.

We learned how to soothe each other emotionally. More me soothing her than the other way round to be honest. This was mandatory as we were college students, then young professionals, then parents, then all three at once for what was the craziest years of our lives. Our sex life did not suffer, interestingly enough, because of the grad school stress. Going back to grad school was something we did because we wanted to and loved every bit of it.

Then came graduations, better jobs, more responsibility, more money... We actually enjoyed a nice marriage renaissance for a few years in fact when my older was like 12-13, the younger 8-9 and we could leave them at home and go for a walk. That really brought the stress levels down. This lasted a few years and we could actually spend an hour talking without complaining about work. We did a lot of travel, bought a lot of art, hosted parties, and overall spent "quality time" together. 

All that of course got obliterated 5 or 6 years ago when the Rapture occurred. But that's for another thread.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

My first marriage was low sex in that I put up with it enough to shut him up. This was because he was a nasty, misogynistic jerk that treated me poorly and as a result I wasn't close to him, and couldn't really open up because I didn't trust him not to exploit my vulnerabilities. My current marriage has regular sex, a couple of times a week, which may still be considered ld by some here but I really enjoy those couple of times per week. Quality vs quantity.....I think the reason I'm so much more into it is not only that my hb has a hot body (he does) but I view him as a real man. He takes care of stuff, treats me well most of the time (nobody's perfect), and is generally a good partner. Having a man that handles stuff and has your back is huge turn on, and when they have a hot body that's cake icing! I'm also in quite good shape, which makes me feel confident, and he's always telling me how sexy I am 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Here's why:




jld said:


> Why do you think that is?
> 
> Personally, I don't think my dh would tolerate it. And it would not occur to me to do it.
> *YES*
> ...


*Physical fitness - I am mostly unchanged in 25 years.*


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Assuming one did not go from Adam Adonis to Jabba The Hut in 25 years I would have a doubt or two in my mind about physical appearance being this important.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Coffee Amore said:


> I had no idea people had marriages where they hadn't had sex for years. Sounds naive, but I was truly surprised.


No kidding, Coffee. Sexless marriage was an exotic idea to me before I stumbled onto marriage forums last fall. It was like some tropical bird I had heard existed, but did not really know anything about.

And it is happening to people under retirement age!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

lace5262 said:


> I can only say these things because I am anonymous here on the internet. Would never admit these things IRL . . . We both love to play, I wonder if this is a factor. My inner child is always very present (I am very emotional, for example), and dh is very accepting of her in every way. But with kids around all. the. time. our sexual play has been somewhat limited . . .it's a big part of our lives. I'm very sexual - This is what dh tells me, too. This just seems so subjective, though; compared to whom? I am blown away by the things I read on SIM . . .
> 
> I had NO idea sexless marriages even existed until I started reading forums. Then a couple years ago, my SIL was making fun of my BIL for keeping him in a sexless marriage .. Yes she thinks it's funnyThis is where I differ from many people here on TAM. I think men have the marriages they deserve. They could study what couples without sexless marriages are doing and try it out, instead of being defensive and just feeling sorry for themselves.
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM, you said your wife is not begging for attention, but that you are cooler than she is. So you do think that a man's being a bit distant is a factor in preventing sexless marriage? But doesn't he also have to be very good to her, for her to want to be close to him?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Assuming one did not go from Adam Adonis to Jabba The Hut in 25 years I would have a doubt or two in my mind about physical appearance being this important.


I am not sure how much physical appearance matters to women. Or at least to this one. A certain presence is what is really alluring . . .


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> jld....Even though it doesn't come up on this board that much....there are a lot of sexless marriages where the wife is HD and the husband is LD.
> 
> Most sexless marriages I have heard about are a result of a mismatched sex drive.


So it really just cannot be overcome? It is just inborn?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jld....It can be overcome, it depends on the reasons a person is LD.

I've been reading message boards like this one (most have a much larger sex section) and overall, I would say only about 25% of sexless marriages can overcome it.

However...half of all marriages end in divorce so, really, if it isn't one thing it will be another, 50% of the time.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jld said:


> I am not sure how much physical appearance matters to women. Or at least to this one. A certain presence is what is really alluring . . .


It matters to me quite a lot.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> It matters to me quite a lot.


Lol, FW!

Is it just the look? Is the presence not important, too? Or do both have to be there for you?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> jld....It can be overcome, it depends on the reasons a person is LD.
> 
> I've been reading message boards like this one (most have a much larger sex section) and overall, I would say *only about 25% of sexless marriages can overcome it.*
> 
> However...half of all marriages end in divorce so, really, if it isn't one thing it will be another, 50% of the time.


Well, that's depressing.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

john117 said:


> Assuming one did not go from Adam Adonis to Jabba The Hut in 25 years I would have a doubt or two in my mind about physical appearance being this important.


Maybe, or maybe not. There are too many people (mostly ladies, it seems) saying it matters to dismiss this out of hand. I have a hunch that it might fall into that "protector / provider" bucket of issues.

I think us guys, looking at sex partially as an affirmation of love, place a higher priority on the lady being an enthusiastic partner. You see lots of guys saying "I'm not worried about how she looks - I still want her".


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Let me be clear. I do not mean appearance does not matter to me at all. I could not be attracted to an overweight man. 

But the presence he has, the feeling that this man I am with is stronger than I am, that he is not afraid of my emotions, or my intellect, or anything else about me, is just huge for me. I cannot carry a man.


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## lace5262 (Oct 13, 2010)

I put your responses in bold.

*I can only say these things because I am anonymous here on the internet. Would never admit these things IRL . . . *We both love to play, *I wonder if this is a factor. My inner child is always very present (I am very emotional, for example), and dh is very accepting of her in every way. But with kids around all. the. time. our sexual play has been somewhat limited*

I think it may be a factor. I loved playing dress up as a kid, and I never out grew it. Now I buy lingerie like crazy. I hear you on the kids - ours are 16 and 19 now. It gets easier.

it's a big part of our lives. I'm very sexual - *This is what dh tells me, too. This just seems so subjective, though; compared to whom? I am blown away by the things I read on SIM . . .*

I can't compare it to anybody. I only know my sexual feelings. 

*This is where I differ from many people here on TAM. I think men have the marriages they deserve. They could study what couples without sexless marriages are doing and try it out, instead of being defensive and just feeling sorry for themselves. *

I think the same could be said of women as well. 

*And the worst: blaming the female. My esteem for men just drops when I see them blaming their wives instead of taking responsibility for the marriage and effecting change. They must not know what melts a woman's heart . . . or what makes it race . . . )*

My BIL has never said one bad thing to us about my SIL - she told on herself. When the beginning stages of the relationship wears off, she cuts off sex and everything else - she doesn't "see them that way anymore" <-- her exact words. She did the same thing to her first husband. She is still married, but was going on a date with an OM to see if "feelings" were there.(Thankfully, the OM changed his mind) She'll do the same thing to her next husband. My esteem for women drops when I see them treating good men like dirt on their shoes.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

DTO said:


> I think us guys, looking at sex partially as an affirmation of love, place a higher priority on the lady being an enthusiastic partner. You see lots of guys saying "I'm not worried about how she looks - I still want her".



That's the idea. Personally I'd take "for what she is" versus "for what she looks like" any time.

But funny as it may be I have changed far less in the last 20 or 10 years than she has. At 45 she could pass for 30, thanks to her ageless Asian look. At 55 I look close to what I did at 45. At 55 she looks a lot older than she did at 45. You do the math 

At 45 - pre-rapture - she took care of her self, nice designer clothes, Estée Lauder galore, etc. Me, my standard pressed Levi's or dockers, oxford shirts, and Birkenstocks. My only vice has been Propecia :lol: to keep that chick magnet Einstein hair in place. But post-rapture it often requires an argument to get her to dress properly. It's hard for her to make the argument that looks are important when she prefers to dress in Nuveau Goodwill garb...


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

Add me to the count of those who never knew sexless marriages existed until message boards. I've heard couples joke around about the husband (usually) not getting none tonight because of something he did. But completely sexless -- no. If I could get away with that I wouldn't have very much respect for the man. But then why would I NOT want to have sex with my husband? That would seem like water without wet.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

lace5262 said:


> *This is where I differ from many people here on TAM. I think men have the marriages they deserve. They could study what couples without sexless marriages are doing and try it out, instead of being defensive and just feeling sorry for themselves. *
> 
> I think the same could be said of women as well. To some extent I can agree with this. But on this particular issue, how many women do we have coming on here and complaining v. men? It doesn't even seem close.
> 
> ...


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

jld said:


> This is where I differ from many people here on TAM. I think men have the marriages they deserve. They could study what couples without sexless marriages are doing and try it out, instead of being defensive and just feeling sorry for themselves.


Oooh! Big red button right there.

However, I more or less agree with you. But I wouldn't use the word 'deserve'. Unfortunately, men get the marriage they get mostly because they try to do what they think is right according to shrinks and media experts. Sadly, the "experts" are wrong. And men get confused. They're told they need to talk more, so they talk. And that makes them look like needy whiners, which is anything but sexy. They're told they need to do more housework, so they do (most guys will) and they find out that this doesn't make their SO turned on, either.

The problem with these little deals is that men are doing A B C or D in exchange for passionate sex. But no matter how you look at it, this feels like a contract to a woman and no woman likes to feel contractually obligated for sex. The best you'll get is duty sex, which isn't fulfilling for anyone. 

Meanwhile, they live in a dynamic where they've relinquished all power in the household and their wives are nagging them and they each end up despising the other. 

Women want men to lead without being a bossy jerk about it. That's it in a nutshell.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I think its like getting cancer - you can try to downgrade your risk factors but nobody gets a guarantee. Rich, poor, slim, fat, gay, straight. It can happen to any of us.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MSP said:


> The best you'll get is duty sex, which isn't fulfilling for anyone.


I asked dh about this once, and he said he doesn't understand all the complaining about "duty sex." I think he thinks all sex is pretty good, period.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Women want men to lead by withholding sex? Sounds like a plan... 

Is it so difficult to accept reality? That most human beings find all kinds of petty excuses to wiggle out of not so great behaviors or to rationalize them?

Does someone with a phd in math, six figure business consultant in a major company for three decades NEED a man to lead her or to provide safety? 

My old flame also has the exact same qualifications and works for the same company 1000 miles away and is happily single by choice. So obviously safety and needing a man etc are not important  to her. 

We're not talking Peggy Bundy or Lois from Malcolm in the Middle here... If women crave "safety and security" on one hand and despise men who are willing to provide them - or try, be it washing dishes or buying her a Cartier watch - then I better start looking at inter galactic dating opportunities...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You seem defensive, John.


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## lace5262 (Oct 13, 2010)

Your responses in bold.

I think the same could be said of women as well. *To some extent I can agree with this. But on this particular issue, how many women do we have coming on here and complaining v. men? It doesn't even seem close.*

Well, if you're like my Mom (who has been married to my Dad for 36 years) - doesn't feel a need for sex, doesn't want it, etc; why would a woman like that come here to complain? My guess is, she won't. She sees nothing wrong, the marriage is great as far as she's concerned, so why complain? I learned this about my parents after telling my Dad about my SIL


*Well, she is going to reap the consequences. She already is. And why are these men marrying her, or staying married to her? It is a free market out there.*

Yes, she is reaping the consequences; she's miserable. They're marrying her because they don't know the sex is going to be cut off. They're not staying married to her - her first marriage has ended, and she knows her second husband is as good as gone.

I use them as examples when I talk to my own daughter - If you don't want to have sex 2, 5, 10+ times a week, don't get married. Would you like it if your husband said, "I don't wanna talk this week" or "I'm good on the talking for a month". A lot of us women wouldn't put up with that, but we expect them to just go without sex. SMH.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

What do you mean, we wouldn't put up with it? We can't make someone talk to us. We can't force words out of his mouth. We can invite, we can change ourselves so that talking is more appealing, but we cannot force.

If we are really unhappy, we can divorce.

And did you mean your dad was not having sex with your mom and was upset about it? 

Maybe someday your sil will be miserable enough to change her ways. You can't force people to change. Sometimes they have to hit bottom first.


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## lace5262 (Oct 13, 2010)

jld said:


> What do you mean, we wouldn't put up with it? We can't make someone talk to us. We can't force words out of his mouth. We can invite, we can change ourselves so that talking is more appealing, but we cannot force.
> 
> If we are really unhappy, we can divorce.
> 
> ...


*I sure hope so. There are kids involved in her crazy.*


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Well, I don't think it's okay to cut off sex. And I still think the man is responsible for the marriage. Each has responsibility to the other, to serve the other, to please the other, in every way. 

And I am sorry to hear there are children involved.

What is your dad doing to change things with your mom? Well, they probably would not tell you, anyway. I hear your concern for your dad. Has he considered divorce?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

CharlieParker said:


> *Yes it is, *but therefore no it is not ALL about it.


:rofl:


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

For one, my wife and I enjoy sex. Secondly, we believe sex is a part of being married. Pretty simple in our case. There are of course times when neither one of us feels like it but if one or the other wants it, the other will go with it. Who doesn't want an orgasm?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

That's the spirit, sandc. Each one serving the other, each one pleasing the other. Isn't that what marriage is all about?


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

jld said:


> That's the spirit, sandc. Each one serving the other, each one pleasing the other. Isn't that what marriage is all about?


Thanks.  We're religious folks so we believe in sacrificial love anyway. "You're horny again? Oh, the sacrifices I make for this family..." :smthumbup:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm a pragmatist. 

Exactly what level of security /safety / etc does someone I describe expect from her man?

Likewise, those women are used to dealing with men 24/7 in the corporate world (and already have accumulated enough resentment to fill a TAM or two by being treated, well, not quite like the guys). Should their husbands or partners be marginalized because some random dude in a video conference said something he should not have said?


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## lace5262 (Oct 13, 2010)

jld said:


> Well, I don't think it's okay to cut off sex. And I still think the man is responsible for the marriage. Each has responsibility to the other, to serve the other, to please the other, in every way.
> 
> I*f each has a responsibility to the other, how is the man responsible for the marriage? Where in the world did you get that idea? I always thought marriage was a give and take. I'm sorry, but, I do not agree or understand your thinking.
> *
> ...


*Oh, my Daddy would tell me - He tells me things you never want to hear about/from your parents Like my SIL; my Mom has told on herself too. According to my Mom; my Dad is awesome, the best husband ever, the bees knees. Sex? Nope, doesn't want it, and hasn't for years. No he hasn't considered divorce. They've been together since they were 15(Only had sex with each other) she has cancer. She's had it twice - stage 4, she should be dead - cervical cancer the first time - now it's spread through her organs and lymph nodes. They gave her 6-12 months to live. We get the results today.*


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jld said:


> Lol, FW!
> 
> Is it just the look? Is the presence not important, too? Or do both have to be there for you?


the look...

the touch...

the skills...

the capacity for emotional intimacy...

the ability to love from the depths of his soul...

I need the whole package and nothing less. And that's what I've got. He makes my blood boil, my skin flush, and my heart soar!

(And as a bonus, he's got carpentry skills and a shop full of tools...my home is beautiful and remodeled in any way I want...swoon!)


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## lace5262 (Oct 13, 2010)

jld said:


> That's the spirit, sandc. Each one serving the other, each one pleasing the other. Isn't that what marriage is all about?


This is what marriage is all about. So again, how is the man responsible for the marriage?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,
Maybe we spend a little less time together than she wants. But when together we are very focused on each other. 

And you can tell when someone is happy to be with you, and interested in what you are saying. 

At the end of the workday, first time you see each other, a radiant smile and a long full body hug get the evening off to a nice start. 

Kind of tells your partner that no matter what went wrong today, you are happy to see them - so much so that it drowns out the noise of day to day irritants. 

Just me but I wouldn't be ok with someone who is often tense and/or always complaining. 




jld said:


> MEM, you said your wife is not begging for attention, but that you are cooler than she is. So you do think that a man's being a bit distant is a factor in preventing sexless marriage? But doesn't he also have to be very good to her, for her to want to be close to him?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Only been with each other but she has cervical cancer? Um, you don't have the whole story. Cervical cancer is caused by HPV which is an STD. It takes decades to show up so one of them brought it in to the marriage at some point. Perhaps her resentment about that is why she doesn't want it. Perhaps his guilt is why he stays.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MSP,
Amen to all that.

And - you have to teach yourself how to maintain some level os sexual tension with a long term partner. 

Even for the women who see it as a means to an end - financial stability etc., if you have the 'talk' with them very quickly, you get a good result. That particular talk is simple, it just requires balls or there female equivalent. 

It goes like this:
HD: What's wrong?
LD: Nothing
HD: Actually something is very wrong, the only question in my mind is whether or not you are going to try to address it with me.
LD: I have a lot on my mind lately, I can't believe you are making such a big deal of this
HD: When you talk to me, I actually pay attention. And honestly your 'day to day' hasn't changed since our sex life died. If I am doing stuff that is turning you off in/out of bed, you need to tell me. 
LD: whining about our sex life is a turn off 
HD: what else?
LD: isn't that enough
HD: no, this is our first such conversation so that certainly isn't what caused the issue
LD: can we talk about something else, anything 
HD: sure, just keep in mind that the way it feels to me is that you rapidly deprioritized one of my core needs right after the (engagement, wedding, first child, second child, last child) and that isn't ok
LD: so all you care about is sex
HD: if I lose my job and make no effort to get a new job, and you complain will it be ok for me to say that all you care about is money
LD: that's completely different
HD: laughing - keep telling yourself that

In most sexless marriages, the guys can't / won't have that type conversation. And won't follow through by steadily deprioritizing their partner until that partner steps up, or steps off. 






MSP said:


> Oooh! Big red button right there.
> 
> However, I more or less agree with you. But I wouldn't use the word 'deserve'. Unfortunately, men get the marriage they get mostly because they try to do what they think is right according to shrinks and media experts. Sadly, the "experts" are wrong. And men get confused. They're told they need to talk more, so they talk. And that makes them look like needy whiners, which is anything but sexy. They're told they need to do more housework, so they do (most guys will) and they find out that this doesn't make their SO turned on, either.
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

lace5262 said:


> This is what marriage is all about. So again, how is the man responsible for the marriage?


Just briefly, lace, equal marriage sounds like a total bore to me. But really, if it makes you happy, go for it.

I don't think men and women are the same. But there is probably a spectrum to human sexuality. The most important thing is to be yourself, your absolute authentic self.

I just don't feel sorry for men. In almost any way. They're better than that. The ones that I would want to be with are, anyway. They don't need my pity.

My husband totally agrees with this, btw. It is not just some women who hold men accountable. Some men do, too.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

lace5262 said:


> You should check your facts about cervical cancer/hpv.
> 
> I also do have the whole story. People like my Daddy and I are very honest with each other. He was raped in his teens by an older man. I know this - my Mom does not.


So sorry, lace. So sorry.

I can see how this can affect a person's thinking.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sandc said:


> Thanks.  We're religious folks so we believe in sacrificial love anyway. "You're horny again? Oh, the sacrifices I make for this family..." :smthumbup:


I grew up Catholic, and spent some time in an evangelical movement before leaving religion at 21. I think the morality is still important, though. And I believe in God, generally.

I think nature dictates relations between men and women. And there is a spectrum, and people need to embrace where they are on that spectrum.

And I believe in sacrificial love, too. If we had more of it, and less self-centered thinking, our world would be a different place.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> the look...
> 
> the touch...
> 
> ...


FW, your marriage _is _ the whole package! What an inspiration! :smthumbup:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

lace5262 said:


> You should check your facts about cervical cancer/hpv.
> 
> I also do have the whole story. People like my Daddy and I are very honest with each other. He was raped in his teens by an older man. I know this - my Mom does not.


So the HPV came from the guy who raped your dad? And your mom is suffering the consequences of something she was never informed about?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Just me but I wouldn't be ok with someone who is often tense and/or always complaining.


Why? Too much work? You don't like challenge? 

Seriously, though, have you read The Way of the Superior Man? You might view a complaining/tense woman a little differently afterwards. Just a thought.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I just read your dialogue, MEM. I think active listening would be more productive. Jmo.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> I'm a pragmatist.
> 
> Exactly what level of security /safety / etc does someone I describe expect from her man?
> You could ask her.
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Only been with each other but she has cervical cancer? Um, you don't have the whole story. Cervical cancer is caused by HPV which is an STD. It takes decades to show up so one of them brought it in to the marriage at some point. Perhaps her resentment about that is why she doesn't want it. Perhaps his guilt is why he stays.


I had an abnormal pap last year and scoured the internet for stories about cervical cancer. I found two examples of women who got it who had not had sex outside marriage, and at least one had married a virgin. I think it is pretty rare, but it seems it can happen. Nothing is sure in life, I guess.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *jld said:** I am not sure how much physical appearance matters to women. Or at least to this one. A certain presence is what is really alluring .* .





Faithful Wife said:


> *It matters to me quite a lot*.


 Feeling loved *and* being able to swoon my husband are both important to me...

Many women talk about a Presence.. I really don't know that I get this too much.... for me it's about *the Romance*..I must feel LOVED..but how he looks , what he does to me, is how the flirting flows.. Ya gotta feel it...

We've never been sexless...even when we* should* have been having more sex... Well I don't even know where my brain was, but even without the brain or being busy, too wrapped up into our kids/ and projects.... after so many days I'd get ragingly horny...and NEED IT...and nothing compares with intimacy... there's just something about SEX...it's heavenly...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think we are all just a little different, you know? The main thing is that we know what works for us.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I totally agree w/MSP. Men are totally trained wrong on what women really want. Read MMSLP.

I also agree with MEM. If you are LD and your partner is HD and you don't care, D or A is probably likely. It is a key component, more than $ or other things. You can't bury your head to your partners key needs (think 5 love languages).


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I also think women have been trained to only tell men what society claims men need to do (talk, do more chores), when they really want, but won't or can't admit they want a more masculine man.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> I also think women have been trained to only tell men what society claims men need to do (talk, do more chores), when they really want, but won't or can't admit they want a more masculine man.


There is a lot of conditioning to overcome. We can help by keeping it real here.

And how does a woman tell a man to be more masculine without insulting him? Do you know the pushback I get just for telling men to take responsibility for their marriages? Do you know the whining and bellyaching that brings out?

And if a woman is with a dominant man, and tells her friends some of the things he does to her, they think she is being abused. She can't win.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

jld said:


> Just briefly, lace, equal marriage sounds like a total bore to me. But really, if it makes you happy, go for it.
> 
> I don't think men and women are the same. But there is probably a spectrum to human sexuality. The most important thing is to be yourself, your absolute authentic self.
> 
> ...


You sound similar to my wife. She wants to look to me for leadership and decisiveness. I am happy to fulfill that role.

Last night I wanted her, told her so, we had fun. No games, no drama. She never has to ask for sex because it's never lacking. I will sometimes deny myself when I am horny and I know she is not feeling well. I told her she is never to deny herself. If she feels horny and I don't pick up on it, tell me and I'll happily sate her. I usually feel her vibes though and take care of business before she has to ask.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

This marriage has never been sexless. We are both high drive, have always enjoyed sex (especially with each other, versus past partners), have no negative conditioning about sex, truly care about each other's happiness and well-being, and sex is an excellent way to bond and create emotional intimacy. We are highly compatible in every way, both in and out of the bedroom. We have excellent communication, and feel free to discuss any issue or possibility, and can't tolerate being angry at each other for more than a few hours - we feel compelled to resolve things and restore emotional harmony and intimacy.

My ex, on the other hand, literally lost interest in sex after she said "I do." She was low drive, and probably married me because I was a good man and felt she couldn't do better. When we did have sex, it was usually very good. However, she seldom felt the need, and was too selfish and self-righteous to think that my needs mattered. Eventually that attitude cost her a marriage.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Despite my long term dissatisfaction with my sex life, my marriage has never been sexless. You can have regular sex with someone who is so conservative in their tastes that you can say that they are meeting the letter of the sex-in-marriage law even if many would say not the spirit.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

jld said:


> Do you have any idea why your marriage has not experienced something that apparently is common?


We do not have kids to deal with so that helps a lot. Otherwise I am just lucky to have found a woman who enjoys regular, if not wild or frequent sex.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

JLD - carrot and the stick.

He fixes the car or does some other manly thing - "I luv it when you do xxx, it is so manly"

He whines - "It is hard for me to luv a boy, but when you tell me what you want in a firm way, it turns me on"

If he is rough during it, and you like it, tell your friends you like it rough? Less experience here....


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## movealong (Aug 9, 2013)

My wife was always lower drive than me, but I also helped kill it. It was important to me that she O with me because she had never had one outside of self pleasuring. I made it such a priority that it became a burden to her, and me. On top of that, when the sex started dwindling, instead of talking and being accepting , I turned to alcohol ( I am an alcoholic with 11 months sobriety ). So when i wasn't getting sex, I got drunk instead. That killed it off to almost nothing. Now I am sober and I am seeing where we both had faults. I have addressed mine and I am working on remedying them. She still does not accept her faults. 

I have no proof, and she never discusses her childhood/teenage years, but some of her actions have lead me to think there was some trauma there.

I am working on my issues, and regardless of how it turns out, I will be okay. I am going to give her something she never gave me: a warning.

If it continues as it is, then there is really no reason to stay married. I can only change myself. She can see the change and adjust to keep us together, or we will wind up divorced. At this point there is nothing to lose other than time with my daughter. But I would rather have less time with more quality than more time and being miserable. I think my daughter will understand.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

JLD wrote "I doubt your problems with your wife have anything to do with anything in the above paragraph." Meaning job and glass ceiling related stress causing mass drop in desire.

It's not the root cause, but as airline and other major accident investigations have often told us, a single issue is rarely the cause of a catastrophe. It's one major thing like BPD and one relatively unrelated thing.

Men compartmentalize well, in my professional experience at least. Women, not so. Start from there and see how some idiotic but innocent comment in a video conference on a Friday ruins all desire for anything for the weekend.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

I have been married 27 years to a wonderful man. Our marriage has never been sexless. We've had times when our sex life has dwindled somewhat, but never completely stopped. I can't imagine intentionally withholding sex from my husband or he me. What is the point in getting married if you don't like sex? Might as well just get a roommate - in my humble opinion.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

I remembered one more reason, because before marriage we discussed it and agreed there would always be sex, no matter what was going on in the relationship (mad, fighting, whatever). The word oxygen came up in that discussion.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

"I think men have the marriages they deserve. They could study what couples without sexless marriages are doing and try it out, instead of being defensive and just feeling sorry for themselves."

That is a very harsh thing to say. 
No, people do not always get what they deserve.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> JLD - carrot and the stick.
> 
> He fixes the car or does some other manly thing - "I luv it when you do xxx, it is so manly"
> 
> ...


I don't understand your post. I don't have a sexless marriage, and dh knows what I like . . . And what I _need._

I don't have to tell him how to be a man.

All in all, we have a dynamic that works for us.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

movealong said:


> My wife was always lower drive than me, but I also helped kill it. It was important to me that she O with me because she had never had one outside of self pleasuring. I made it such a priority that it became a burden to her, and me. Sorry to hear this.On top of that, when the sex started dwindling, instead of talking and being accepting , I turned to alcohol ( I am an alcoholic with 11 months sobriety ). So when i wasn't getting sex, I got drunk instead. That killed it off to almost nothing. Now I am sober and I am seeing where we both had faults.Very good. I have addressed mine and I am working on remedying them.Excellent. She still does not accept her faults. Start to address this. Gently at first, but hold her feet to the fire.
> 
> I have no proof, and she never discusses her childhood/teenage years, but some of her actions have lead me to think there was some trauma there.Tread gently there as well, listen compassionately, and lots of holding.
> 
> ...


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

sandc said:


> No games, no drama. She never has to ask for sex because it's never lacking.


This is how my marriage was too. There was no "begging" for sex or attention in that department. It was just always on the table. It's always hard for me to wrap my head around marriages, especially newer ones that are sexless since I never had one. Does not compute for me but I do realize, especially after coming to TAM, that there are quite a LOT of them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> "I think men have the marriages they deserve. They could study what couples without sexless marriages are doing and try it out, instead of being defensive and just feeling sorry for themselves."
> 
> That is a very harsh thing to say.
> No, people do not always get what they deserve.


When you take responsibility for your life, you can change things. When you sit around feeling sorry for yourself, you feel powerless.

There _are_ options.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> This is how my marriage was too. There was no "begging" for sex or attention in that department. It was just always on the table. It's always hard for me to wrap my head around marriages, especially newer ones that are sexless since I never had one. Does not compute for me but I do realize, especially after coming to TAM, that there are quite a LOT of them.


Okay, I think the "begging" was directed at me. 

When I say I beg dh for attention, I mean I can never get enough talking, holding, caressing, being together. I just love interaction. 

I am also a SAHM homeschooling four boys with a husband who is often gone for work. So, believe me, time with dh, whether on the phone during the day, or in person on the weekends, is very precious.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> This is how my marriage was too. There was no "begging" for sex or attention in that department. It was just always on the table. It's always hard for me to wrap my head around marriages, especially newer ones that are sexless since I never had one. Does not compute for me but I do realize, especially after coming to TAM, that there are quite a LOT of them.


:iagree:


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

jld said:


> Okay, I think the "begging" was directed at me.
> 
> When I say I beg dh for attention, I mean I can never get enough talking, holding, caressing, being together. I just love interaction.
> 
> I am also a SAHM homeschooling four boys with a husband who is often gone for work. So, believe me, time with dh, whether on the phone during the day, or in person on the weekends, is very precious.


Oh, and we were homeschoolers too.  Good for you.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

jld i was responding to your post above (#61). this would be general advice to what you wrote on how to overcome socities influence on us.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> There was no "begging" for sex or attention in that department. It was just always on the table.


That was always us too, the sex was effortless and just seemed to happen. When the estrogen left the building that changed. Never sexless, but it now required effort (something I was really good at because it was never needed). Took close to a year and much discussion and trust but we're back in a good place, it will happen whenever one of us wants it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jellybeans, did you have children with your husband?

When dh is here, or when he calls, I have to share him with the kids. We all need him. I cannot just think of myself.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

I have been in sexless relationships as well as healthier ones. 

Even though i've been with women who had sex issues, i'll never understand the dynamic because they wouldn't talk about it. i think that's one of the traits of a sexless person. they have a hidden agenda or some deep seeded issues that they do not want to deal with.

After going through sexlessness for several years I confess I dont understand it. But I know it because i've been there. Google a website called "experience project". there's a grouping there called 'living in a sexless marriage". I found comfort there for several years. They have something like 50,000 members!!!!!

Thank God I have left that and now with a HD woman.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> jld i was responding to your post above (#61). this would be general advice to what you wrote on how to overcome socities influence on us.


Oh, okay.

I think some honesty in how men and women relate in their most primal ways would be helpful, as opposed to thinking everything has to be politically correct. That messed with my head for a long time.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You can change yourself, not others.

To change others you need, ehem, external influences over them. 

How did Comrade Mao say it... Real power comes from...... I would hate to paraphrase the good Comrade but that's what it is. We're now seeing the results of a generation afraid of sex, a generation raised on abstinence and FUD, a generation where FWB and hooking up and ONS replaces relationships, a generation where we run for therapy or a lawyer at the slightest problem.

This ought to be good.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jld said:


> Okay, I think the "begging" was directed at me.


Actually, it wasn't.  It was in response to sandc saying his wife never had to ask him for sex and also in relation to the myriad of threads we see on TAM about one partner have to beg the other for sex. It's simply not something I ever experienced.



CharlieParker said:


> That was always us too, the sex was effortless and just seemed to happen.
> 
> Took close to a year and much discussion and trust but we're back in a good place, it will happen whenever one of us wants it.


I am glad to hear you guys are getting it on. :smthumbup:



jld said:


> Jellybeans, did you have children with your husband?
> 
> When dh is here, or when he calls, I have to share him with the kids. We all need him. I cannot just think of myself.


Ok, now I think you are directing that "I cannot just think of myself" at me, unless you didn't.  Especially when I tell you ... that no, we didn't have children.  LOL. And I won't sit here and pretend a marriage with children is like a marriage without children but the fact is, we all have different experiences. But as it relates to your thread topic, being "sexless" was never something that occurred in our relationship. I don't want to say it wasn't an "option" but I suppose just not something we did. We had a very great sex life and to this day, nobody hs known my body better than my exH. 

I should probably get laid. Soon. It's been awhile.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

jld said:


> When you take responsibility for your life, you can change things. When you sit around feeling sorry for yourself, you feel powerless.
> 
> There _are_ options.


Yes there are options. 
But that is after the fact. If one chooses to stay in that condition than I suppose you could say that they deserve that -but by that time there are usually other considerations than the need for sex. Some people place a very high priority on maintaining the family unit.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Okay, sorry about that, Jellybeans. I did say I feel like I do "beg" dh for attention. Honestly, I could talk to him all day long. And a million years ago, before kids, I used to do that. And he would listen, and make insightful comments, and it was just wonderful.

I asked him one time, back then, how he could listen to me all the time without getting worn out. He said, "You are a 100 watt bulb. And I am a nuclear power plant." How can a woman resist that?

Nowadays, we might get half an hour on the phone or FaceTime. And it has to be shared with the kids.

And I did not mean to say you were selfish. Sorry if that is what it seemed.

I can tell you I am selfish, though. Dh gives to me. He is very nurturing. But the kids need him, too, and he truly loves his job. So it is not like he exists just for me. I cannot be the recipient of all his energy, much as I sometimes think that would be nice.

And probably, in some way, I feel the way I do about him because I am not the focus of his life. Maybe it keeps me striving.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> Yes there are options.
> But that is after the fact. If one chooses to stay in that condition than I suppose you could say that they deserve that -but by that time there are usually other considerations than the need for sex. Some people place a very high priority on maintaining the family unit.


But then that choice is made freely, right? And the responsibility accepted.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

"Oh, okay.

I think some honesty in how men and women relate in their most primal ways would be helpful, as opposed to thinking everything has to be politically correct. That messed with my head for a long time. "

I totally agree. Political correctness at its absolute worst. I think todays generations are so brainwashed by alot of BS, neither men nor women really understand.....


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

lace5262 said:


> If it was hpv related cervical cancer, yes, that's where it would have come from.
> 
> When I was told she didn't know. Knowing my Dad, he probably told her. It's not something I'm going to ask about.


It sounds like your parents are both victims of _Life_, as CM recently put it.

I feel sorry for both of them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Yes, naiveonedave. I wish we could have just respected all people from the start.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jld said:


> I asked him one time, back then, how he could listen to me all the time without getting worn out. He said, "You are a 100 watt bulb. And I am a nuclear power plant." How can a woman resist that?


Aw, that is sweet!



jld said:


> Nowadays, we might get half an hour on the phone or FaceTime. And it has to be shared with the kids.
> 
> And probably, in some way, I feel the way I do about him because I am not the focus of his life. Maybe it keeps me striving.


Well it makes total sense you feel this way, honestly. You wish you had more time with him solo and there is nothing wrong with that. 

I once was with a guy who was married to his job. I always felt like I was the mistress and his job was the wife! LOL


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Lol, JB. But at least I get some money out of it! . Ugh, bad materialistic me!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

lace5262 said:


> I use them as examples when I talk to my own daughter - If you don't want to have sex 2, 5, 10+ times a week, don't get married. Would you like it if your husband said, "I don't wanna talk this week" or "I'm good on the talking for a month". A lot of us women wouldn't put up with that, but we expect them to just go without sex. SMH.


I see I'm not the only one having these discussions with our daughters. Mine told me (in a genuinely sad tone) that her mom pushes away the new husband (after <1 year of marriage) when he tries to snuggle up. You think she would have learned her lesson the first time, but she felt she would have no problem finding a guy happy with a physically distant relationship. Talk about SMH.

Anyways, my daughter is just at that point of becoming aware of what an adult relationship means. I told her flat out that if you don't like a guy enough to share yourself with him in that way, then you don't marry him. Period.


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

Because we discussed it before marriage and agreed that neither of us would ever deny the other when they were horny for any reason whatsoever. We have both kept that promise for close to 4 decades now.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

I am not sure what our secret is to a mutually satisfying sex life. I think we are both very compatible, empathetic, and concerned about pleasing each other. I know what arouses me, and I learned to communicate that to my husband.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,
I am very effective at helping W with 'acute distress'. Think of that thing your H does to soothe you when you are super agitated. I am happy to do that as needed. But that is different than a daily thing. 

The 'chronically tense/unhappy' partner typically needs support in adjusting their lifestyle:
- Exercise
- Diet 
- Sleep
- Affection 
- Sex 

And in that the H has to lead by example. I make an effort to ensure our 'evening walks' are fun and happy times. This makes it easier for my W to say 'yes' when invited and harder to say 'no'. I don't pressure her with guilt. I simply keep going for walks or to the gym. She is grateful. 

I don't believe you can easily place yourself in the contexts that I describe as your H has never caused you to perceive him as your subordinate/servant. Thus you would never think to attempt to use sex as a means to extort concessions from him.

Empathy in such interactions is demonstrated by leadership, not servitude. 





jld said:


> Why? Too much work? You don't like challenge?
> 
> Seriously, though, have you read The Way of the Superior Man? You might view a complaining/tense woman a little differently afterwards. Just a thought.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> I am very effective at helping W with 'acute distress'.


Just to make sure we're on the same page, would you care to provide an example of what 'acute distress' is in your wife's thinking? would you also consider it as such?

Some people run into a problem or two but can continue living their lives. Others encounter a problem and life has to stop cold until the problem is addressed. 

No matter how much a husband takes the lead or offers soothing actions etc. if the issue is dead-in-tracks that's all she wrote.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> I don't believe you can easily place yourself in the contexts that I describe as your H has never caused you to perceive him as your subordinate/servant. Thus you would never think to attempt to use sex as a means to extort concessions from him.


He has done a lot of things right, MEM. He has always been the healthier of the two of us, in many ways.

But the longer I am on TAM, the healthier I am getting, too. My inner security is increasing.

I am realizing that while dh has done many wonderful things for me, and is truly a remarkable man, I, too, have given about as much as a woman can give to a man, and continue doing it. We are truly in a mutually beneficial relationship.

I think more marriages need to be based on giving to each other, on truly serving one another. "How can I meet your needs better?" and "How have I not been meeting your needs?" are very good questions for spouses to ask one another.

I very much appreciate dh's contributions to our relationship, and he values mine, too.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Just to make sure we're on the same page, would you care to provide an example of what 'acute distress' is in your wife's thinking? would you also consider it as such?
> 
> Some people run into a problem or two but can continue living their lives. Others encounter a problem and life has to stop cold until the problem is addressed.
> 
> No matter how much a husband takes the lead or offers soothing actions etc. if the issue is dead-in-tracks that's all she wrote.


John, it seems you feel you have done all you could in your marriage, and there is nothing more to do, on your end.

I feel torn sometimes with how to respond to you. On the one hand, I cannot possibly know your marriage. It is not right for me to judge you.

Otoh, when your friends see you consistently resigned and unhappy, it is only normal for us to want to help you, even if you perceive the help as unhelpful.

I tend to think men have more influence over their wives than they realize, but this influence is probably more effective when the man believes in himself, in his ability to influence her. It is helpful when a man has a vision of what the two of them can be together.

Do you have a vision that you could, or would like, to believe in?


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

"I tend to think men have more influence over their wives than they realize,"

Only in an ideal world where every individual is basically the same. 

In the real world most people are about the same and the rest are more or less different. 

When I was a kid a neighbors mom got herself committed to a psychiatric hospital. I do not think her hubby being more manly would have helped her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> Only in an ideal world where every individual is basically the same.
> 
> In the real world most people are about the same and the rest are more or less different.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

I think realizing that we are all just merely humans - humans that makes mistakes, helps a marriage thrive. I married my husband, warts and all because I loved him and still do. He has not always been perfect and neither have I, but we do practice forgiveness and try our best to talk things out and not hold grudges. I think another problem a lot of couples face is mere selfishness. They get caught up in the tit-for-tat back and forth and let it destroy their marriage. My dad told me before I married that marriage is a lot of work - you will get out of it what you put into it and I think that still holds true.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Acute distress*

John,
Fair question.

Wife had a work related situation that was causing her a LOT of distress. 

The situation lasted 8 weeks. During that time:
- I listened and empathized 
- On occasion I asked clarifying questions
- On very rare occasion I mentioned why the other folks involved might be doing what they were doing

Another organization approached her during this timeframe and made her an offer. She was inclined NOT to take it. 

I gently but persistently asked her to have a clarifying conversation about her career path at her current organization before shutting the door on this new opportunity. My 'theme', repeated over and over was this: I 100% support whatever decision you make, I only hope that you make a fully informed decision. 

She reluctantly had that conversation with her boss and walked out of it realizing that she should definitely take the new job. Which she did - and which she loves. 

This was just good teamwork. And she knew I would have supported her if she chose to stay. 

Is that the type example you were looking for? 

We had a similar situation that lasted 2-3 months with our oldest daughters boyfriend. In that case she wanted to:
- ban him from the house
- demand our daughter break up with him

She was beyond furious that I treated him as a welcome guest, and put zero pressure on our daughter to do anything. In that case my theme was: do not give them (daughter and her boyfriend) a common enemy (us) to fight as that will strengthen their bond. 

That was a painful few months. But it worked out. 




john117 said:


> Just to make sure we're on the same page, would you care to provide an example of what 'acute distress' is in your wife's thinking? would you also consider it as such?
> 
> Some people run into a problem or two but can continue living their lives. Others encounter a problem and life has to stop cold until the problem is addressed.
> 
> No matter how much a husband takes the lead or offers soothing actions etc. if the issue is dead-in-tracks that's all she wrote.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If the above was sufficient for my wife I would have been beatified by the appropriate sanctioning body.

To paraphrase JFK, "ask not what you can do for your wife, but ask what your wife can do for herself"

In other words, the difference is Normal vs BPD. The lack of emotional development in a BPD results in everything turning into China Syndrome, with no triage. 

I have heard so much about her coworkers I feel I know them already. I do actually thanks to the frequent parties they have that allow guests. So I am often called to provide similar inputs you did but at a much smaller issue scale. 

Add additional crisis resolution requests for the loons that make up her family and you have it made.

The difference is not how much you are supportive but what she does with the support. In my case support often equates to blame shifting... 

As a psych guy I know the importance of separating (underdeveloped) emotions from the decision making process - ironically a good deal of this was my dissertation research - but the news has yet to reach my wife. 

It is hard to be genuinely supportive when 90% of what I am asked is stuff that is self evident...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*You are bringing out my worst John*

Ok John,
Count me mildly annoyed.

While this was an outlier, it happened just this way:
- Halloween 16 months ago
- Oldest daughter (D1) posts Facebook photo of her and her boyfriend. Her attire would be Skimpy but legal on a US beach
- My W doesn't directly 'see' it as she isn't 'friends' with D1 due to their differing standards of modesty and propriety
- However D1 has many, many hundreds of FB friends including many cousins and aunts and uncles. An aunt and a cousin BOTH call my W to express concern about the photo. Both calls transpire while I am humming along clueless at 30,000 feet.
- Upon landing my cell phone rings

My W informs me that:
1. She called D1, demanded the photo be taken down immediately, demanded an apology and upon receipt of belligerent refusal informed D1 that effective immediately we (who the fvck is WE anyway, I was cluelessly coasting along on the Bernoulli effect while this was happening) would be cutting off all financial support. Which, since we pay room, board, tuition and a bit of spending money would require her to immediately drop out mid-semester.
2. I am completely stunned, but calmly try to explain why I simply will not financially nuke one of our children over an embarrassing photo. I empathize. I employ diplomat grade tactics to defuse the situation. W ONLY cares about one thing. Whether I am with her or against her. Whether I will support the immediate and total financial cutoff or not. I won't. She hangs up on me.
3. We don't speak at all until I return home 5 days later at which time I learn:
- She has told our close friends and family she is divorcing me because I am quote 'emotionally abusive'. 
- She sent an email, that accidentally got forwarded to me saying that quote 'I had destroyed her health' over the last two decades with my anger and emotional abuse. 

It took MONTHS for her to acknowledge that:
- It was incredibly disrespectful of her to say WE would cut off support before even talking to me
- It was emotionally abusive to trash me to all our friends, simply because she was embarrassed and felt the photo made her look like a bad mother
- Saying that I had destroyed her health in an email was the lowest point in our whole marriage

And months more for her to actually express any remorse. 

------
And for more color on the boyfriend incident I mentioned in my
previous post. When I wouldn't allow a campaign of hostility towards him, my W suddenly threatened not to participate in our planned family trip to Europe later that summer. 






john117 said:


> If the above was sufficient for my wife I would have been beatified by the appropriate sanctioning body.
> 
> To paraphrase JFK, "ask not what you can do for your wife, but ask what your wife can do for herself"
> 
> ...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM, I don't know your wife, but don't you think active listening would have worked when she called you?

You could have just listened and affirmed her concern over the photo. "You feel upset about the photo. You feel it was not appropriate. You are disappointed that our daughter would do that. You are afraid other people are questioning our parenting of her," etc.

Do you not think that would have calmed her down?

And then you could have gotten into how your daughter saw it. "Honey, I know you love our daughter very much. That is why you are so concerned about that photo. You want her to be safe, and when you see a photo like that posted, you are naturally worried about her. You are her mother. Of course you want the best for her."

Both of those things, validating your wife's concerns, and then affirming her good intentions, would have calmed her down. Then you could have gently expressed your own concerns, which motivated your position. "Honey, I know we love our daughter very much. We want the best for her. I hear what you are saying, how you want us to use our influence to help her make the decisions we want her to make. My concern is that she may feel hurt and misunderstood. We don't want to alienate her. How do you think we could deal with her in a way that we could all feel good about?"

I think this approach could calm everyone down, really get thought going, and leave everyone feeling respected and listened to, as well as generating a healthy, mutually acceptable solution.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ah, a lioness mom out to protect her cub :lol:

Here's how a similar scenario played out at BPD inc.

My older was not allowed to date - period - in high school. She was not allowed to go to parties if the opposite gender was there. There were daily fights about excessive makeup or revealing clothes. 

Dr. John to the rescue of course and thanks to my help we were able to get a semi normal life out of it. BPD leaves little "brain power" for mundane things such as checking Facebook 

Even more, to get her to learn to make the right choices. She had a relationship with a very nice kid last year of high school and he followed her into her college for two years. She learned to make the right choices and when his grades turned a bit sour (something about this studying thing didn't jive with him) his parents recalled him to our city. The relationship was put on ice.

She got her 21st birthday driver license a year ago and has yet to put foot in a bar a year later. She spends days at a time in the studio creating stuff and is a top student there, and a very talented one to boot. Mom is her biggest cheerleader.

The same mom who refused to fund her art and design education or support her five years earlier. 

Your wife's reaction was overblown, while yours was measured. Now think of someone who has this type of response your wife did 24/7 over any subject and you can understand what BPD is, and how untreated BPD is.

Now mom is gravely concerned that daughter is not meeting enough people in college :rofl: and she will graduate without dating.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

JLD, I tried this with my wife on far more trivial subjects the moment you validate her concerns you become the enemy because (a) you agree with her and (b) you do not do anything to stop the undesired behavior or (c) you encourage undesired behavior.

As I said, thankfully some BPD's can be manipulated easily so the problem is diminished...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You have mentioned your wife has BPD, John. Does MEM's, too?

I don't know much about mental illness. I just think active listening works well for people in general. YMMV.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I think Mrs. MEM has her feisty moments but not BPD 

Teenagers posting skimpy pics of themselves on Facebook is a no-no in my book also...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> I think Mrs. MEM has her feisty moments but not BPD
> 
> Teenagers posting skimpy pics of themselves on Facebook is a no-no in my book also...


Yes, but once they are 18, we parents do not really have any control. I would not cut off education funding, either. That would just be hurting their future, and the parents', too. You never know when you might need your kids . . .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In this specific instance I agree with Mrs. MEM... There is absolutely too much information posted out there and with little effort things can get out of hand.

I use Facebook to stay in touch with relatives back in Europe and North America. Many of my nieces seem to think that 15 or 16 years old is a good time to see how much they can get away with. Even older. That's a bit too excessive. I would not cut off college funds over it but even tho I agree with Mrs, MEM on principle my reaction would have been way different...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I am not saying it is in any way good to post questionable photos. I just don't think we have control over what our kids do once they turn 18.

Trying to control people just does not seem to work. Influencing might.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If I'm paying the bills the difference between control and influence are ceremonial. $200k-$250k a head buys a lot of either . 

I have found that my daughters actually do listen - the closest I came to this was a Facebook picture showing a bit more of PDA than needed - it was obliterated without a fuss.

Considering the biggest infraction my older has done in 3 years was getting a parking ticket compared to dropping out, academic issues, DUI, fake ID's, etc (all of which occurred to kids she knew) I think we are in good shape.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Together over 40 years, married 37. There have been peaks and valleys (mainly for medical reasons), but never sexlessness. I guess it's as simple as: we both find it fulfilling.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Sure. Money always talks. But I think you have the relationship with them that you do because of time and effort invested in them, not just money.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
Mrs. MEM is 'BPD lite'. 

The sequence described below describes her reaction pattern perfectly. 

With the boyfriend situation, I actively listened and empathized. I repeated the same message a half dozen times. 

Ultimately when the desired outcome occurred, my W said to me, well you were right, but we wouldn't have had any conflict about it if you had only been empathetic. Scratch head.....




john117 said:


> JLD, I tried this with my wife on far more trivial subjects the moment you validate her concerns you become the enemy because (a) you agree with her and (b) you do not do anything to stop the undesired behavior or (c) you encourage undesired behavior.
> Te
> As I said, thankfully some BPD's can be manipulated easily so the problem is diminished...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is a good post John, and you are a rock solid father. 

Unfortunately I am a better husband than father. Which is one reason why D1 dropped out of school 3/4 through her undergrad program. 





john117 said:


> If I'm paying the bills the difference between control and influence are ceremonial. $200k-$250k a head buys a lot of either .
> 
> I have found that my daughters actually do listen - the closest I came to this was a Facebook picture showing a bit more of PDA than needed - it was obliterated without a fuss.
> 
> Considering the biggest infraction my older has done in 3 years was getting a parking ticket compared to dropping out, academic issues, DUI, fake ID's, etc (all of which occurred to kids she knew) I think we are in good shape.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

100 percent agree. 

Money is just an amplifier, it is almost never the foundation.





jld said:


> Sure. Money always talks. But I think you have the relationship with them that you do because of time and effort invested in them, not just money.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> This is a good post John, and you are a rock solid father.
> 
> Unfortunately I am a better husband than father. Which is one reason why D1 dropped out of school 3/4 through her undergrad program.


Don't take it personally, MEM. I bet you and John are both devoted fathers.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,
Not sure. I have tried that in the past, tend to get the reaction John describes. 






jld said:


> MEM, I don't know your wife, but don't you think active listening would have worked when she called you?
> 
> You could have just listened and affirmed her concern over the photo. "You feel upset about the photo. You feel it was not appropriate. You are disappointed that our daughter would do that. You are afraid other people are questioning our parenting of her," etc.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,
I over delegated to My W. Worked fantastic until the kids hit their Tweens - 11/12 years old. 

At that point my W needed a lot more help especially with our eldest. Neither of us realized it at the time. 




jld said:


> Don't take it personally, MEM. I bet you and John are both devoted fathers.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think the most important thing about being a parent of older kids, MEM, is being able to share the power with the kids, instead of trying to control them.

We do a lot of active listening here, and I am willing to be persuaded of their positions, if they have sound, logical arguments.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The reality of raising teenagers in the USA is quite disturbing.... One can never be too paranoid as a parent.

I sort of pounded expectations of greatness in my kids' heads. As is typical with my machinations I let them think they're in control  while setting up the stage for them to make the desired decisions.

Active listening actually works well with the girls. The older one is the drama queen so affirming her dramas is good for her, the younger has more of mom than dad plus knows my modus operandi and thus is harder to manipulate but can compromise to an agreeable midpoint.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> The reality of raising teenagers in the USA is quite disturbing.... One can never be too paranoid as a parent.I don't feel like that at all. I guess it is the homeschooling. And I don't try to control internet access, either. My ds14 is on Facebook and I am not.
> 
> I sort of pounded expectations of greatness in my kids' heads. As is typical with my machinations I let them think they're in control  while setting up the stage for them to make the desired decisions.Well, they certainly know our values.And we've made it clear that we are not funding their lives. Whatever decisions they make, they will be paying for after college. Our money stops around 22 or so.
> 
> Active listening actually works well with the girls. The older one is the drama queen so affirming her dramas is good for her, the younger has more of mom than dad plus knows my modus operandi and thus is harder to manipulate but can compromise to an agreeable midpoint. I think active listening is a miracle tool. I use it all the time with my kids, and encourage them to use it with each other. The idea is for each to express themselves, and then figure out a plan everybody involved can live with.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In France or anywhere in Europe i could fund education to age 72 - the costs are trivial compared to the USA and the consequence of going to Le Universite La Nowhere vs Sorbonne IV are not as dramatic as in the USA.

If you've been gone from the USA for two decades it's likely you're not in touch with what a good college costs now, or the significance of details like T14. My neighbor's daughter got a T25 law degree and has been looking for work since last May... Meanwhile two friends kids from T14 had multiple $160-180k job offers.

It's a reality that most parents and students often don't think about till the fat lady has sung. Plus, there's a reason both my girls have EU citizenship  as well as American citizenship.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

john117 said:


> It's a reality that most parents and students often don't think about till the fat lady has sung. Plus, there's a reason both my girls have EU citizenship  as well as American citizenship.


College snobbery is nothing new 'round here.

My degree from S.E. Bumf*ck university didn't stop me from making solid six figures for nearly two decades now.

An Ivy League degree will open some doors for you, but it won't make you good when you ain't. How far you rise will depend almost entirely on how good you are, and you don't need Princeton parchment to be good or driven at what you do. 

Let's be real, John. I've never seen anyone who spends more time framing each and every argument in economic terms. Your perspective is more than just a little skewed.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Cletus said:


> College snobbery is nothing new 'round here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Twenty years ago things were very different than today. There's definitely a push for higher higher education and that brings costs and expectations high. 

In some fields - older girls case - a terminal degree (euphemism for phd) is needed to teach at the college level, and from a good school. Otherwise with a BA or MA you end up designing toaster ovens for $40k a year. With a phd from a good school you teach toaster oven design at Boomfvck U for $70k a year. Do the math, and the extra $100k for the terminal degree pays off in spades plus you can work on the side. 

In other cases - younger girl premed - where you go to college determines what undergrad research is available, whether Biochem 1 has 30 students or 300, and so on, what recommendations you get, and so on. Everyone gets good grades and gets decent MCAT scores, but the intangibles make the difference between Boomfvck Medical School versus Johns Hopkins  and whether you spend the rest of your life doing meaningful research or prostate exams.

You'll find that we immigrants often think of everything in economic terms. If money trees were easy to find back in our birth countries we'd still be there harvesting, no?

(Edit: Do female doctors do prostate exams?)


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

But one of the advantages of America is that you can live a decent life without basing everything on money. There is less elitism, no?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

john117 said:


> Everyone gets good grades and gets decent MCAT scores, but the intangibles make the difference between Boomfvck Medical School versus Johns Hopkins  and whether you spend the rest of your life doing meaningful research or prostate exams.


I'm not going to waste time trying to change your mind, it's clearly the primary motivator in your life, and you're welcome to it. But there is a thread going on right now where plenty of guys think that giving prostate exams is pretty damned meaningful work. I never met a starving proctologist either.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> But one of the advantages of America is that you can live a decent life without basing everything on money. There is less elitism, no?



You can do just that until the first Bad Thing (tm) happens, be it illness, a new roof, or a blown engine, or a layoff or divorce.

Someone who makes the decision to move 6000 miles for more interesting job opportunities and presumably more money is likely to value money more...


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Cletus said:


> College snobbery is nothing new 'round here.
> 
> My degree from S.E. Bumf*ck university didn't stop me from making solid six figures for nearly two decades now.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

John can't make a post without mentioning his house, cars, salaries, his daughter's accomplishments. I too haven't seen anyone here who has such a need to talk about money. 

One of my parents has two degrees from an Ivy-League university, but guess what I make more and have made more my entire career than this parent of mine. My degree is not from such a prestigious university either. It's from a good university, but not an Ivy. An Ivy degree can open doors, but in the end work experience matters after your first job. 

Ph.Ds aren't what they used to be. I have cousins with Ph.Ds from prestigious places. A Ph.D may end up driving cabs or working in restaurants depending on the field. If your Ph.D is in south asian literature, you're not going to find much work and you'll have to go wherever the job is even if it's in some far-off location. In certain fields, a Ph.D is useful, but a Ph.D. in certain humanities fields, you could be asking "do you want fries with that?"


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Correct. That's why neither of my kids is majoring in East Asian Studies.

I could care less about money if I knew college is free like back in the old country. Here it ain't, and that makes all the difference.

A marriage is the sum total of a lot of things, physical and emotional. One can find the love of their lives and enjoy a fulfilling sex life etc yet longer term planning would tell you that money, as much as we don't want to think about it, does matter.

Would I trade my house and frigid wife for a 2 bedroom apartment and Helga the Swedish nympho? Don't know. Opportunity is a strange beast. 

All I will tell you is that many of my friends married for "love" and they aren't any happier than I am once money gets tight. It's a zero sum game, you trade financial happiness for emotional happiness. There are few immigrants I know that would trade one for the other.

Maybe I should go back, find a college teaching job and unleash my desires on all too cooperative coeds . "And today we learn about the mental models of sexual intimacy. I need a pair of volunteers to demonstrate" :rofl:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You've done very well, Coffee. You have a great job and a great marriage. You are happy and you deserve it.

I think all of our posts are helping John see he may have options he didn't realize he had. It's true that immigrants tend to view America a bit differently than some of us whose ancestors came here way back when. It's probably hard to overcome that conditioning.

Thanks again for your post.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Options are always there, but without the details, it's all too easy to take the "one size fits all" approach.

One never knows intimate details about why some people value money while others don't. My brother and mother both succumbed to illnesses that decent health care (read, not Comrade Lenin General Hospital) would have fixed. Meanwhile, my father in law has access to amazing health care in the middle of nowhere (German and French trained physicians and top of the line equipment) because he's wealthy.

Growing up poor across the pond we always heard how America worships gold and we worship happiness and dignity etc. I was floored to find out after moving here that in reality it's the other way 'round in many instances. Throw an Asian mom into the mix (not Amy Chua but close) and you got it made.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

John, when the pain of staying is greater than the pain of leaving, you will leave.

Your posts talking about immigrants' perspectives are interesting. I think in at least some ways my dh could relate, or at least understand where you're coming from, though he is from a Western European country.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I was asked about my sexual patterns in previous relationships. I said that it started as frequent, then going down to a few times a week, then increasing to pretty much daily after a year or so.

My wife seemed shocked, and assumed sex normally became rare after a year. 

THe thing is, we had spoken about sex before. However, we had the communication problem that what I meant was very literally the exact thing I said with my words.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Married over 15 years and for the first two, probably daily. For the next 11, probably 3 to 4 times a week. For the last 2, twice a day.

Why? Because I am highly sexual and my wife is a pleaser. When she was pleasing, it slipped down to 3 to 4, a compromise. I'd have sex daily if I could, so half the time I got what I wanted. When she hit mid 30s, she wanted it more, mine never left. She also noticed that on the days she would be intimate with me, we were happier, I was a better man, and I gave her attention. On the days she knew she wasnt going to be intimate with me, I was tuned out and doing my own thing. Not on purpose, but I feel like my attention can either go to my wife or hobbies. If she had to compromise and her giving me attention for 30 minutes a day was just too much, then I felt me giving her attention every other day was fair.

Also, the nice guy/beta will always be pushed to the side eventually. I have never been that guy.

My thoughts.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I don't think sex makes dh more attentive or in a better mood. His mood is stable and doesn't seem to be affected by my mood.

Well, I guess you could say sex makes him more attentive for that time we are involved in it, as opposed to, say, if we were to just be sleeping instead.  

He is probably attentive compared to many husbands, but I could always use more. Really, who couldn't? Who doesn't want to be listened to and understood at all times?  Isn't that why people pray?

I'm a pleaser, too, but I don't think dh takes advantage of that. He is pretty loving and giving himself. And I appreciate that, especially the more I read here and talk to other women.

Other women have always told me I am lucky, but I am really seeing it for myself. I cannot believe men leave the room when their wives yell at them. Those women must feel abandoned, or like they are with little boys.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Coldie.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

jld said:


> I don't think sex makes dh more attentive or in a better mood. His mood is stable and doesn't seem to be affected by my mood.
> 
> Well, I guess you could say sex makes him more attentive for that time we are involved in it, as opposed to, say, if we were to just be sleeping instead.
> 
> ...


I don't think needing intimacy is taking advantage. I have never heard of a person who is needy and wants attention as taking advantage. My wife loves my attention, 24/7. Do I think she is taking advantage of me by getting my attention each day? No way, I feel like she loves me and just wants to enjoy life with the guy she chose to be with forever.

The same can be said for sex, in my honest opinion. It really is that simple. When more couples figure out that, this section will be dead.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Coldie said:


> I don't think needing intimacy is taking advantage. I have never heard of a person who is needy and wants attention as taking advantage. My wife loves my attention, 24/7. Do I think she is taking advantage of me by getting my attention each day? No way, I feel like she loves me and just wants to enjoy life with the guy she chose to be with forever.
> 
> The same can be said for sex, in my honest opinion. It really is that simple. When more couples figure out that, this section will be dead.


No, I meant the part about being a pleaser and getting taken advantage of. People are always warning about the dangers of giving in to your spouse. I think giving in, if you are married to a safe person, is probably the secret to a happy marriage. Each one pleasing the other, that idea.

Cletus says that the problem with sexlessness is mainly mismatched sex drives. Do you agree?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jld said:


> He is probably attentive compared to many husbands, but I could always use more. Really, who couldn't? Who doesn't want to be listened to and understood at all times?  Isn't that why people pray?


Me. I'm an introvert. Sure, introverts need to be listened to and understood once in a while, but we also get our fill of human interaction really fast - including that of our spouse. 

Oh, and I'm an atheist. No praying either.

Just adding to your data point collection.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Thank you, Cletus.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Coldie said:


> I don't think needing intimacy is taking advantage. I have never heard of a person who is needy and wants attention as taking advantage. My wife loves my attention, 24/7. Do I think she is taking advantage of me by getting my attention each day? No way, I feel like she loves me and just wants to enjoy life with the guy she chose to be with forever.
> 
> The same can be said for sex, in my honest opinion. It really is that simple. When more couples figure out that, this section will be dead.


I think the only way this section would be dead is if somehow, future generations know better than to marry someone with a mismatched drive.

Current and previous generations had no way of knowing this could happen.

Now we know.

So don't let your kids get married without considering this very real fact of married life.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

jld said:


> No, I meant the part about being a pleaser and getting taken advantage of. People are always warning about the dangers of giving in to your spouse. I think giving in, if you are married to a safe person, is probably the secret to a happy marriage. Each one pleasing the other, that idea.
> 
> Cletus says that the problem with sexlessness is mainly mismatched sex drives. Do you agree?


I agree TOTALLY.

Pride, ego, and other peoples opinions ruin "pleasers". By ruin I mean, they do not get how that person is happy by giving so much and plant seeds to change this person. 

A spouse should be proud to give her/his significant other everything they want, that they can easily give. Not easy to give houses, money, cars, and gifts. Extremely easy to give attention, sex, and love. Some people just don't get it.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think the only way this section would be dead is if somehow, future generations know better than to marry someone with a mismatched drive.
> 
> Current and previous generations had no way of knowing this could happen.
> 
> ...


Good point.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

But FW, what about the guys who say it only showed up years into the marriage?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Coldie said:


> I agree TOTALLY.
> 
> Pride, ego, and other peoples opinions ruin "pleasers". By ruin I mean, they do not get how that person is happy by giving so much and plant seeds to change this person.
> 
> A spouse should be proud to give her/his significant other everything they want, that they can easily give. Not easy to give houses, money, cars, and gifts. Extremely easy to give attention, sex, and love. Some people just don't get it.


Yes, I totally agree with that. It is helpful to just shut out other opinions sometimes, and be yourself. Actually, it is always helpful to just be ourselves. Thanks for your post.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think the only way this section would be dead is if somehow, future generations know better than to marry someone with a mismatched drive.
> 
> Current and previous generations had no way of knowing this could happen.
> 
> ...


But drives change. It's not a static thing at all, not in my experience. I have had high drive times and low drive times in my life.

I think it makes more sense to marry someone who cares if you're happy and will do whatever they can to ensure you stay that way. That's something more reliable than something governed by hormones.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lyris said:


> But drives change. It's not a static thing at all, not in my experience. I have had high drive times and low drive times in my life.
> 
> I think it makes more sense to marry someone who cares if you're happy and will do whatever they can to ensure you stay that way. That's something more reliable than something governed by hormones.


Yes, drives can change, and this is something we can now get information about. OTOH, many people have a very high or very low drive and it never changes throughout their life.

But "cares if you are happy" won't necessarily make someone who is naturally LD have sex with you.

These issues can and should be discussed and understood as much as possible, which is much easier now.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> But "cares if you are happy" won't necessarily make someone who is naturally LD have sex with you.


Nailed it.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Really? Why not? Why wouldn't it make a naturally LD partner have sex?

I'm quite LD. I happily have sex when my body doesn't physically desire it because I know it helps keep my marriage happy. And because I know intellectually that it will be great once I get started.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Really? Why not? Why wouldn't it make a naturally LD partner have sex?
> 
> I'm quite LD. I happily have sex when my body doesn't physically desire it because I know it helps keep my marriage happy.


Some LD partners simply do not understand how their HD partners feel, how highly they value sex, how it is tied into to their feelings of love and acceptance.

If the LD spouse doesn't understand this and doesn't bother to try to expand their understanding...then the HD has no recourse.

If everyone valued marriage and making their partners happy, there would be less divorce, but I think it is pretty clear that divorce rates are going up, not down.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Well then they're not caring about the other persons happiness in the way I mean. You can't care without at least valuing and respecting the other person's feelings, even if you don't understand them fully.

It's my understanding that the divorce rate has either remained static or decreased since a high during the 1980s. That's the case in my country according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Well then they're not caring about the other persons happiness in the way I mean. You can't care without at least valuing and respecting the other person's feelings, even if you don't understand them fully.
> 
> It's my understanding that the divorce rate has either remained static or decreased since a high during the 1980s. That's the case in my country according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics.


I think the rates keep climbing here.

I can't tell you why people don't care what their spouse thinks or feels...I am only saying, some people just don't. And I'm going to guess that those are the ones who end up divorced.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Really? Why not? Why wouldn't it make a naturally LD partner have sex?
> 
> I'm quite LD. I happily have sex when my body doesn't physically desire it because I know it helps keep my marriage happy. And because I know intellectually that it will be great once I get started.



Because the mind is conditioned to reject things it does not like in the short term even tho they may be good for the long term.

I recall a series of lectures about the consequences of teenage stupid behaviors such as the feeling of immortality most of them have . With a bit of work the researchers found out the teen brain was so wired to look for the reward of the stupid behavior that they completely bypassed any thought of risk. Not considered and ignored, but outright in one ear and out the other.

Here we may be seeing the same. The natural reaction to reject is not going to be swayed by any rational explanation of why they should not reject... 

As we toaster oven types would say, "the risk/reward mental model is simply too busy trying to stay averse to having sex (focusing on the risks) to consider focusing on the rewards of having sex.

In their mind sex is framed not as a gain but as a loss so any sex seeking opportunities by their partners are (pun intended) toast because of risk aversion to sex by the LD spouse.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

And yet here I am. LD right now, but happily and enthusiastically have sex 3-5 times a week. Sometimes more. 

It's no leap at all to know in my mind that something's good and bring my body into line. And I'm not some special snowflake. 

So I guess marry someone who matches your drive, or find someone who has empathy and is able to think reasonably. Preferably both.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You don't fear (despise, loath) sex. That's the difference...


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Oh and marry someone normal. That goes without saying.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think the only way this section would be dead is if somehow, future generations know better than to marry someone with a mismatched drive.
> 
> Current and previous generations had no way of knowing this could happen.
> 
> ...


So, if your sex life dips when you are working 70-80 hours a week, do you call it quits? Or do you discuss it open and frankly and agree that it is expected to increase once that calms down?

Then you get married and the discussion you had turned out to be fibs?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> So, if your sex life dips when you are working 70-80 hours a week, do you call it quits? Or do you discuss it open and frankly and agree that it is expected to increase once that calms down?
> 
> Then you get married and the discussion you had turned out to be fibs?


Do you already have evidence that your drives are matched? If so, discuss the circumstantial effects on sex frequency, and evaluate the risks. Frankly, I wouldn't marry anyone who worked 70 (or even 50) or more hours if I wanted a good relationship, and not an absentee roommate.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Do you already have evidence that your drives are matched? If so, discuss the circumstantial effects on sex frequency, and evaluate the risks. Frankly, I wouldn't marry anyone who worked 70 (or even 50) or more hours if I wanted a good relationship, and not an absentee roommate.


It was me working that much, and it was for a period of eight months. It raised money that paid for the wedding and move to Europe. 

Clearly, she has a very low sex drive and was shocked when it turned ou I meant the things I said in marriage preparation.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> So, if your sex life dips when you are working 70-80 hours a week, do you call it quits? Or do you discuss it open and frankly and agree that it is expected to increase once that calms down??



My wife works those hours - easily 60-70 but from home so there's a lot of built in downtime - and you could be more HD than any of the regulars but it wears her out.

On the other hand, this amount and pace of work by itself is by her choice. Either work 8-9 hours focused 100% on what you do or 12-14 hours with breaks for soap operas, threadmill, cooking, etc.

The times I stayed home due to various reasons have conformed this quite well. So the long hours are more likely motivated by her using the opportunity to avoid the rest of us rather than legitimate need to get work done.

When she worked out of an office, similar pattern... If it pays extra it's a different story. A couple times my company required us to work 60 hour weeks for 9-12 months at a time but they paid extra plus free food for evenings and weekends. And I don't ever recall being "too tired".


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

john117 said:


> My wife works those hours - easily 60-70 but from home so there's a lot of built in downtime - and you could be more HD than any of the regulars but it wears her out.
> 
> On the other hand, this amount and pace of work by itself is by her choice. Either work 8-9 hours focused 100% on what you do or 12-14 hours with breaks for soap operas, threadmill, cooking, etc.
> 
> ...


It was me who was working 70-80 hours. Normally such work is a great deal of routine, but this was not. There is a huge difference between having a routine and having chaos. The plan was to take a few months downtime to recover afterwards, as was typical for other contractors. 

This did not happen due to circumstances, such as my wife not working.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lyris,
100 percent agree with this. 

When that whole theme resonates throughout the marriage it makes everything easier. 

- Affection is a mutually delightful thing 
- And that makes working with responsive desire SO much easier, since that's how I start - with touch that is not explicitly sexual





Lyris said:


> Well then they're not caring about the other persons happiness in the way I mean. You can't care without at least valuing and respecting the other person's feelings, even if you don't understand them fully.
> 
> It's my understanding that the divorce rate has either remained static or decreased since a high during the 1980s. That's the case in my country according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lyris,
LMAO

We are at a slightly lower frequency, but the theme is identical. 

As the HD partner, it isn't my goal to make it feel good for her 'eventually'. No - I touch her in a way that feels good from the start. As she heats up, she wants me to proceed. 

So there isn't a 'bad' part of the tunnel she has to make it through in order to get to the happy place. 

And I don't express impatience because I don't feel impatient. I enjoy the whole process as well. I love the beginning part. 

Is it like this for you? 



Lyris said:


> And yet here I am. LD right now, but happily and enthusiastically have sex 3-5 times a week. Sometimes more.
> 
> It's no leap at all to know in my mind that something's good and bring my body into line. And I'm not some special snowflake.
> 
> So I guess marry someone who matches your drive, or find someone who has empathy and is able to think reasonably. Preferably both.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

It sounds like you are very happy now, MinimalMe. Thanks for sharing your story!


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## Knobbers (Sep 25, 2013)

We've never had a sexless marriage, longest we ever went was after each kid was born, for obvious reasons.

I think in our case, we refused to let it happen. I was never afraid to discuss exactly how I felt, and over the years she has opened up a ton because of it. In our marriage, that intimacy has helped us create a bond that seems unbreakable, so much that our frequency has increased over our 20 years, instead of the opposite.

We both notice a much closer connection when we are intimate frequently.


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## Knobbers (Sep 25, 2013)

Lyris said:


> And yet here I am. LD right now, but happily and enthusiastically have sex 3-5 times a week. Sometimes more. And I'm not some special snowflake.


Yes you are, in my opinion. Most LD people I know do not think like you.

You are an LD unicorn where I come from.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Lyris,
> LMAO
> 
> We are at a slightly lower frequency, but the theme is identical.
> ...


I'm not sure. I don't require any special handling. However my husband touches me feels good to me, whenever and wherever he does it. My body is never off limits to him. Maybe it is more thought out from his point of view, I don't know.

Mostly I know intellectually that sex is good, so I'm happy to initiate or respond if he does. Right now our frequency is down a bit as both our libidos tank during stressful times and we have just sold our house which has been very stressful. 

I don't let it fall below twice a week though, as I know that's the point we start to disconnect. And I know he won't complain, or insist or otherwise react except by withdrawing if the frequency does drop below that point. It's up to me to take care of that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That is beautiful. You are both lucky. 

He is especially lucky that you are aware of the minimum contact needed to maintain a high level of intimacy. As you are fortunate that the point of loss is twice a week since that is very doable even during a busy week. 

And as for our - slow ramp - on sex, it feels totally natural to me. I don't wish for something different. Well that's not quite true. I wish she didn't have a condition that precludes intercourse. 





Lyris said:


> I'm not sure. I don't require any special handling. However my husband touches me feels good to me, whenever and wherever he does it. My body is never off limits to him. Maybe it is more thought out from his point of view, I don't know.
> 
> Mostly I know intellectually that sex is good, so I'm happy to initiate or respond if he does. Right now our frequency is down a bit as both our libidos tank during stressful times and we have just sold our house which has been very stressful.
> 
> I don't let it fall below twice a week though, as I know that's the point we start to disconnect. And I know he won't complain, or insist or otherwise react except by withdrawing if the frequency does drop below that point. It's up to me to take care of that.


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