# Is "transgendering" a young child wrong?



## Cee Paul

I say YES and shame on that parent if you are trying to dress and raise your little 3 or 4 year old boy as a little girl(or vice versa)just because you think they act like one, because that child is way too young to make that choice and you have now basically chosen to ruin that child's life!!


----------



## richie33

I saw article on what you are referring to. Yes. I believe its wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cee Paul

It's a hot topic on CNN right now; and there's a story of a mother who has now decided to pull her child out of kindergarten because she has a little boy that she dresses like a girl, and refuses to make him use the boys bathroom and wants permission for _him_ to use the girls. They of course said "noooo way" which is what they should have said.


----------



## BrockLanders

Those parents are insane. They even had the kid's hair dyed.


----------



## Cee Paul

I can remember way back when I was like 10-11 yrs old we had girls that were heavily into sports who were "tomboys" that liked to wear a lot of boys clothing, and we all thought nothing of it and some of us actually hungout with and had crushes on these girls around our neighborhoods. Buuuut when it goes the other direction and the boys are running around in a lil dress with girlie shoes on and wearing hair clips, that's when it stands out more and starts to get a little weird for everyone around them I guess.


----------



## Lyris

If I had a child who was transgendered and had a deep need to dress and be though of as opposite to his or her biological gender then absolutely I would support him or her. 

I would homeschool though. Not interested in setting my kid up for pain and torment in a school environment for being who they are.


----------



## Cee Paul

Lyris said:


> If I had a child who was transgendered and had a deep need to dress and be though of as opposite to his or her biological gender then absolutely I would support him or her.
> 
> I would homeschool though. Not interested in setting my kid up for pain and torment in a school environment for being who they are.


That would be your choice but you would have to know that there's a good chance your child would feel left out - weird - or different from all the other boys and girls; and that could lead to a very bad ending for him/her later on in life.

I have a nephew who was verrrry feminine growing up, and he would always prefer to hangout with the girls while the rest of the boys all hungout and played sports together and other stuff like that. Well my brother and his wife always knew something was up, but they never tried to dress him like a girl and always allowed him to feel as regular as he could. So fast forwarding he finally came out of the closet as a senior in high school and is now a senior at Kansas Sate and is doing well in school, and he is comfortable being gay and has a boyfriend but his parents sat back and just allowed it all to take place........naturally(and by HIS choice).


----------



## Lyris

There's a difference between gay and transgendered. A gay man is sexually and romantically attracted to other men. A transgendered person is someone who feels they have been born into the wrong body - so a boy wants to be a girl, or a girl wants to be a boy.

And 'wants' doesn't really describe it. I've read plenty of things written by trans men and women and they all say they felt they had been born into the wrong body, it can cause long term depression and suicidal behaviour.

It's not something a parent can create through allowing a boy to dress as a girl or vice versa. it's innate.


----------



## Entropy3000

Cee Paul said:


> I say YES and shame on that parent if you are trying to dress and raise your little 3 or 4 year old boy as a little girl(or vice versa)just because you think they act like one, because that child is way too young to make that choice and you have now basically chosen to ruin that child's life!!


Yes. I find it abuse. Sexual abuse.


----------



## Cee Paul

Lyris said:


> There's a difference between gay and transgendered. A gay man is sexually and romantically attracted to other men. A transgendered person is someone who feels they have been born into the wrong body - so a boy wants to be a girl, or a girl wants to be a boy.
> 
> And 'wants' doesn't really describe it. I've read plenty of things written by trans men and women and they all say they felt they had been born into the wrong body, it can cause long term depression and suicidal behaviour.
> 
> It's not something a parent can create through allowing a boy to dress as a girl or vice versa. it's innate.


I understand that buuuuut we as the parents are IN CHARGE and not the children, so if my son asks me if he can dress like a girl while he's a child my answer will be absolutely NOT and will forbid it to go on. But now later on when he's 17 or 18 or beyond and wants to do those things then he is free to do so, but not while he is really young and is still developing under my total care.


----------



## EleGirl

When my now 24 year old son was young, up to about 1st or 2nd grade he did things that some would interpret to be him wanting to be a girl.

He often asked me to paint his finger nails.. so I painted them. He asked for some makeup a few times so I put lipstick and even eye shadow on him. His comment was that it was unfair because girls got to do things to make them pretty and men did not. 

He asked for a baby doll. He said that his dad had a baby (him) so he wanted one. It was a doll called a 'bath baby'. He'd give his baby doll a bath and be all loving. Then it would got in his little wheel barrel and he'd jestson that doll like it was going out of a cannon... he was a little boy after all and everything was about fighting galactic wars and exploding things... even is baby doll.

There were a few times that he wore the clothing of his best friend... a little girl. We went out in public few times with him dressed like this. My son has always had an very good sense of humor. I watched him getting a kick at the reactions people had to this obviously boy dressed in girls’ clothing. When we got back in the car he’d laugh his head off at people. Of course he also liked going to in public with his devil costume and his Dracula costume as well.

In high school his favorite shirt was a bright pink t-shirt. Why? Because he said it was a chick magnet. He found that the girls loved a very good looking 6'4" guy who had the guts to wear a bright pink t-shirt.

My point? Children do a lot of things to experiment with who they are, social norms, etc. The absolute worst thing a parent can do is to pick on one of them and start to say that it means that kid is a transgender. Geez, let kids have fun and don't turn it into something like gender re-assignment at such an early age.

There are of course children who are born with conditions that can cause some issues. For example I've read of children who have both male/female parts and sometimes even the docs do not know if they are really male or female. But this is a very rare occurrence.


----------



## Lyris

Lots of kids experiment with gender and like dressing up etc as the opposite sex. For the vast majority, it's just a phase, and they grow out if it in their own time. For the few that don't, they usually grow up to be transgendered adults. 

Nothing a parent does/doesn't do is going to stop a genuinely transgendered child from being the way he or she is. Refusing to accept or allow a child to experiment and express him or herself can do lots of damage to the parent/child relationship and to the child's sense of self, though.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Good posts from Elegirl and Lyris!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

Lyris said:


> Lots of kids experiment with gender and like dressing up etc as the opposite sex. For the vast majority, it's just a phase, and they grow out if it in their own time. For the few that don't, they usually grow up to be transgendered adults.


This is exactly why I think it's wrong to start "transgendering" a child this young. Next week this kid might decide he's a tiger or a dragon. Kids have great imaginations. Don't turn it into a political event.


Lyris said:


> Nothing a parent does/doesn't do is going to stop a genuinely transgendered child from being the way he or she is. Refusing to accept or allow a child to experiment and express him or herself can do lots of damage to the parent/child relationship and to the child's sense of self, though.


When it comes down to biology there is no biological need for a male to wear what we call male clothing or a female to wear what we call female clothing.

When there was no clothing.. like in cave man days, what exactly did a 'transgender' 3-4 year old do to express that they were born in the wrong body? I doubt it existed in those days as gender roles were most likely not a big deal.

This is all social conditioning.


----------



## Tigger

In that case, it seems like the mother was really disappointed in not having a girl. 

Kids will experiment and that is ok. I really wanted to be a bird for awhile but did my parents buy me a cage, perch, and bird seed, of course not. lol

Parents need to be parents. They run the show, not the kids. Kids are looking for guidance.

If kids wanted to go to school in their underpants you wouldn't let them. If they wanted to go to school wearing a snow suit in the summer you wouldn't let them. 

Parents need to be parents.


----------



## Lyris

I didn't see the actual article, did someone do a link? I am talking about accepting a child with a strong transgendered nature, and allowing them to express their reality. Not a parent dressing a boy as a girl.

I don't believe gender is a purely social construct. I also think that at base, it doesn't really matter. iI a person feels so strongly that he or she should have been born the opposite gender that it causes great emotional trauma to deny that then the person needs to be supported and accepted.


----------



## Wiltshireman

Being either Transgender or Transsexual must be very hard on both a child and the family. I honestly do not know how I would react to / cope with one of my children telling me this is “what I am”.

The only firsthand experience I have had with the issue is one of the supervisors I am responsible for at the factory. He had always come across as a bit “effeminate” and had told me in confidence that he was homosexual. This had not caused any problems at work as he was a nice guy who worked well with those around him. We did however experience problems once he decided that he wanted “gender reassignment”. He came to speak to me as his line manager and together we spoke to HR who were happy to support him the problems came once he started his hormone treatment and had booked up for his surgery as he was told he had to start dressing / living as a women. He no longer felt comfortable using the “gents” but several of the female staff objected to him using the “ladies” before his opp. So that no one was offended / made to feel uncomfortable I gave him a key to the disabled (not ideal I know but the best I could do). In time we got used to calling Him by Her new name and since He had had the operation She has continued to be a hard working member you the team.

Hard enough for an adult to go through let alone a child.
So why any parent would "push this" on there child is beyond me.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

coffee4me said:


> I agree that its wrong to push the issue at a young age. I also don't understand the need. Clothes now a days can be gender neutral and dressing a child as the opposite sex is so confusing for the child.
> 
> I do wonder thou, at what age do you let a child choose. I've wondered this ever since I witnessed an incident in a girls dressing room between a mother and a child. The little girl was about 9 years old. She was literally screaming at the top of her lungs and crying hysterically because the mother was forcing her to try on a dress. She said she wanted to wear a suit to the occasion not a dress. The mother was in tears as was the grandmother. They all looked traumatized over the situation.
> 
> I could easily see it from the mothers side but the daughter was so distraught. I tried to imagine myself in her situation and at the same time was thankful that I've never had to face a situation like that.


Women can wear suits. Maybe the girl will become Secretary of State. What's the big deal?


----------



## ExiledBayStater

Cee Paul said:


> I can remember way back when I was like 10-11 yrs old we had girls that were heavily into sports who were "tomboys" that liked to wear a lot of boys clothing, and we all thought nothing of it and some of us actually hungout with and had crushes on these girls around our neighborhoods. Buuuut when it goes the other direction and the boys are running around in a lil dress with girlie shoes on and wearing hair clips, that's when it stands out more and starts to get a little weird for everyone around them I guess.


Why is that? I remember reading an article by the mother of a little boy who wore girlie shoes and hair clips of his own volition. He was three and liked to wear them. She didn't send him to preschool in dresses, but he liked playing with "girl" toys. She couldn't understand why a society that supports tomboys won't tolerate little boys who act the way girls are expected to act.

Having been raised in a household free of rigid gender roles, and living in a marriage free of rigid gender roles, the whole thing escapes me. Boys can have long hair and play with EZ Bake ovens, girls can have short hair and take up archery. What's the big deal?


----------



## EleGirl

ExiledBayStater said:


> Why is that? I remember reading an article by the mother of a little boy who wore girlie shoes and hair clips of his own volition. He was three and liked to wear them. She didn't send him to preschool in dresses, but he liked playing with "girl" toys. She couldn't understand why a society that supports tomboys won't tolerate little boys who act the way girls are expected to act.
> 
> Having been raised in a household free of rigid gender roles, and living in a marriage free of rigid gender roles, the whole thing escapes me. Boys can have long hair and play with EZ Bake ovens, girls can have short hair and take up archery. What's the big deal?


I could be wrong, but I think that the case Cee is talking about is the one in which the mother is throwing a stint because the school will not allow her son to use the girl's bathroom.

That's a lot different than someone just wanting to be a tomboy or a marygirl (ok I made up the term but hope you get it).


----------



## Cee Paul

EleGirl said:


> I could be wrong, but I think that the case Cee is talking about is the one in which the mother is throwing a stint because the school will not allow her son to use the girl's bathroom.
> 
> That's a lot different than someone just wanting to be a tomboy or a marygirl (ok I made up the term but hope you get it).


Yep, the mother was all upset because her pretend daughter who has a BOY'S pee pee wasn't allowed to use the girl's bathroom, and wether she fights it or not you don't stand a chance of winning that battle.....especially not in elementary school.


----------



## F-102

"I'm a boy,
I'm a boy,
But my mom won't admit it,

I'm a boy,
I'm a boy
But if I say I am...

...I'd get it."


----------



## ChangingMe

Here's the article: Parents of transgender first-grader file discrimination complaint - CNN.com

I have a master's in psychology, which in no way makes me an expert, but I do have some experience working with transgendered clients. 

Here are my thoughts on this case: If the child were 10 and had been expressing the desire to dress and act like a girl for most of his life, then I would say the parents were being loving and supportive of their child. But the fact that he is in first grade (so maybe 6 years old) and has been called a she and raised as a girl for a year, I can't help but wonder about who is pushing for this. 

I do agree with others that children have amazing imaginations, and they can pretend to be any number of things. My kids are 5 (boy) and just about 4 (girl). My son wants his toes painted when I do my daughter's, so what the hell. My daughter went as a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle for Halloween, even though I showed her all the "girl" costumes too. She also calls herself Stripes and says she is Angry Bird if you try to call her by her first name. I do not tell her teachers that they should call and treat her as one though.

My concern would be that this is a phase for this child. Maybe not. But maybe it is. And if it is, then what will he go through when he is done with dress up and wants to be called a boy again? Will the parents accept that? 

I really think that, if it were my child, I would address him at home how he asks (just like I call my Brooke Stripes like she likes), but I would not ask teachers or others to talk or treat him like a girl, since at this point, he is not. I wouldn't force him to dress overly masculine, but as others pointed out, there are very gender-neutral clothes these days. 

It just seems like they are fighting this battle years too early. I think it is fantastic that they can be open-minded and loving towards their child and whatever his path is, but it seems way too soon to be filing discrimination lawsuits on his behalf. 

Just my opinion, based on what I got out of the article.


----------



## that_girl

My kids wear what they want. My older daughter was and is a tomboy and my younger daughter is girlier than a princess! 

I wouldn't force them to dress a certain way.


----------



## Cee Paul

I think if you make it verrrrry clear to children at a young age about who boys are and who girls are, and that if you are born with a pee pee and an adam's apple you are clearly a BOY and should act like one. Now later on in life if they choose to act or dress a different way then that's THEIR choice and not one that I made _for_ them.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Cee Paul said:


> I think if you make it verrrrry clear to children at a young age about who boys are and who girls are, and that if you are born with a pee pee and an adam's apple you are clearly a BOY and should act like one. Now later on in life if they choose to act or dress a different way then that's THEIR choice and not one that I made _for_ them.


I completely disagree. What is acting like a boy?

I do think a lot of gender issues are socially constructed, and there is not much difference in children, we shouldn't treat them differently based on if they have a penis or vagina.

I have a daughter who was very "tomboy' like. She is gay, and I believe she struggles with transgendered feelings that are highly complex. I have never tried to force her into anything or pigeon hole her. I let her be herself.

Telling my daughter she was a girl, and should act like one, would have been damaging. I told her, she was herself, and she could be whoever she liked. 

You shouldn't force your children either way. Just treat them like little people. The world is full of people trying to force them to be a certain way and it can be very judgemental and cruel. I certainly don't want to be another person who makes my child's life hard.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

ChangingMe said:


> Here's the article: Parents of transgender first-grader file discrimination complaint - CNN.com
> 
> I have a master's in psychology, which in no way makes me an expert, but I do have some experience working with transgendered clients.
> 
> Here are my thoughts on this case: If the child were 10 and had been expressing the desire to dress and act like a girl for most of his life, then I would say the parents were being loving and supportive of their child. But the fact that he is in first grade (so maybe 6 years old) and has been called a she and raised as a girl for a year, I can't help but wonder about who is pushing for this.
> 
> I do agree with others that children have amazing imaginations, and they can pretend to be any number of things. My kids are 5 (boy) and just about 4 (girl). My son wants his toes painted when I do my daughter's, so what the hell. My daughter went as a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle for Halloween, even though I showed her all the "girl" costumes too. She also calls herself Stripes and says she is Angry Bird if you try to call her by her first name. I do not tell her teachers that they should call and treat her as one though.
> 
> My concern would be that this is a phase for this child. Maybe not. But maybe it is. And if it is, then what will he go through when he is done with dress up and wants to be called a boy again? Will the parents accept that?
> 
> I really think that, if it were my child, I would address him at home how he asks (just like I call my Brooke Stripes like she likes), but I would not ask teachers or others to talk or treat him like a girl, since at this point, he is not. I wouldn't force him to dress overly masculine, but as others pointed out, there are very gender-neutral clothes these days.
> 
> It just seems like they are fighting this battle years too early. I think it is fantastic that they can be open-minded and loving towards their child and whatever his path is, but it seems way too soon to be filing discrimination lawsuits on his behalf.
> 
> Just my opinion, based on what I got out of the article.


I hadn't seen that, and assumed this thread was about Massachusetts, which has recently allowed transgendered students to use the bathroom of their chosen gender. 

The parents are over the top. The most important lesson one can learn in childhood is to be happy with what one has, including one's body. The child's passport says female? Someone at the State Department didn't check the application against the birth certificate.


----------



## Cee Paul

*LittleDeer* said:


> I completely disagree. What is acting like a boy?
> 
> I do think a lot of gender issues are socially constructed, and there is not much difference in children, we shouldn't treat them differently based on if they have a penis or vagina.
> 
> I have a daughter who was very "tomboy' like. She is gay, and I believe she struggles with transgendered feelings that are highly complex. I have never tried to force her into anything or pigeon hole her. I let her be herself.
> 
> Telling my daughter she was a girl, and should act like one, would have been damaging. I told her, she was herself, and she could be whoever she liked.
> 
> You shouldn't force your children either way. Just treat them like little people. The world is full of people trying to force them to be a certain way and it can be very judgemental and cruel. I certainly don't want to be another person who makes my child's life hard.


Telling them to "act like one" in the sense that if you have a penis then you WILL use the boys bathroom like the rest of the boys - is what I meant, or else you will be kicked out of school for it eventually.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

Cee Paul said:


> Telling them to "act like one" in the sense that if you have a penis then you WILL use the boys bathroom like the rest of the boys - is what I meant, or else you will be kicked out of school for it eventually.


Hypothetical twist: Suppose a child is biologically intersexed. Does it still come down to the presence or absence of a penis, or do the child's female parts and assigned gender identity factor in?

I would think as a practical matter the child would use whichever restroom is more comfortable and coincides best with the child's outward appearance, and that nobody would follow the child into the stall to check for male genitals.

That in no way means that parents should call their (unambiguously) male children girls or call their female children boys based on hair and fashion choices.


----------



## Cee Paul

George529 said:


> So what's stopping a guy from putting on girly clothes claiming to be transgendered and walking into the girls locker room?


Nothing; but he better not ever try and shower or change clothes and have "it" somehow pop out, or he will then be lead away in handcuffs and go to a place where they would loooove for a guy to dress like a girlie. :rofl:


----------



## Theseus

For those wondering about this case, there is an update here:

Coy Mathis Case: School District Refuses To Enter Into Mediation With 6-Year-Old Transgender Girl Banned From Bathrooms


----------



## ExiledBayStater

Theseus said:


> For those wondering about this case, there is an update here:
> 
> Coy Mathis Case: School District Refuses To Enter Into Mediation With 6-Year-Old Transgender Girl Banned From Bathrooms


So the school offered the nurse's bathroom and the (presumably private) staff bathroom?

Yup. Parents are drama queens.


----------

