# Am I being naive?



## munchie (May 17, 2011)

First let me apologize for the *length* of this post. Some of you may already be familiar with my situation, as I've posted on this board before. On May 10th, I found out that my husband of 20 years was in the midst of a 5 month EA/PA with one of his biggest clients' VP (who also happens to be married). The affair allegedly ended once I found out ... but my H did not want to resign the client's account because it represented a six-figure piece of business for my husband's firm (_of which he's the owner_).

I was EXTREMELY uncomfortable with my H continuing to do consulting for that company - but he *insisted* that most of the work he did there involved five or six other people, he didn't work directly with OW on any projects and that he didn't want his firm to lose the income of this client. Again, I _didn't love_ that he continued to work with them, but I didn't demand that he drop the client - just that he have little to no interaction with OW when he was there. He promised he wouldn't have interaction with her other than "hello" if he saw her in the hallway.

Any time he went over to their offices (1-3 times a week) he would tell me and he seemed to be accountable for all of his actions. Although I would randomly check his computer or cell phone without his knowledge and a few times found the occasional e-mail or text to/from OW that was a little too "familiar" to my liking - H insisted that everything was over. He insisted they knew from the beginning of the EA/PA that it was a crazy thing for them to do and that he felt terrible for hurting me, guilty, hated himself, etc. 

In the meantime, my husband and I have been working hard on improving our relationship and we both feel like great strides have been made. We're more intimate, have better communication and are very committed to keeping the marriage together. We've had many moments of tears, apologies, and anger -- but we work through each difficult obstacle day by day.

On August 9, one of OW's co-workers found evidence of the A from something in an old e-mail, so OW was asked to meet her company's Compliance Board. OW called my H to tell him. It was determined that the OW was in violation of her company's policy regarding personal relationships with outside vendors. H referred an attorney to OW and spent _several days_ pulling together e-mails and documents to prove that OW did not supply him with proprietary information. H and OW conferred several times to go over her strategy when she met with the company's compliance board. OW called my H after the meeting to tell him about it. A week after meeting, OW called my H to tell him she was terminated. He immediately called me up _crying_ because he felt personally responsible for her termination and was feeling guilty and loathsome about how he ruined so many lives. He also promptly sent a letter to OW's boss and resigned the account. 

H asked OW to keep him up to date on what was happening with her and the dealings with her soon-to-be former company. I told him that the damage was done and there was nothing he could do, so why was it necessary for her to keep him in the loop. He said he will always feel guilty and trying to help her was the least he could do. (WTF?!) He promised to tell me whenever she called him. 

A few weeks ago, I found correspondence on his computer between H and a graphic designer who H hired to create a website, letterhead, business card and marketing materials for a new business OW was launching. When I confronted H about it - H once again reiterated that he needed to help her – insisting that it was the least he could do (and a way to assuage his guilt) after his role in her termination. (Obviously, her termination had nothing to do with her violation of company policy prohibiting personal relationships with vendors). He also insisted that nothing personal is going on between them and it's strictly business. He added that she was going to <another state> to interview for a job and he hoped she got the job so that "the misery he caused her" would end well and he could stop feeling guilty. (BTW - do you think OW is feeling guilty about my H's lost revenue and is trying to get him a replacement client?)

Last Friday I asked H if he had heard from OW lately. He said "yes," that she had called him THAT DAY to let him know that she was officially moving out of her office. (Although she got fired, she was able to officially "resign" and walked away with a VERY attractive package that includes a consulting arrangement for six months, vesting in the 401K on October 1, payment of her Cobra until she gets another job, sterling job references, etc.). I was annoyed that she's still calling H with updates. I asked him HOW LONG he thought exchanges with her would continue. At that point he got mad at me because he says I'm the one who wants to know if he hears from her, but then I get annoyed when he tells me about it. That may be true - but I'm trying to gauge what, if anything, is still going on between them. He insists that the affair wasn't about "OW" – it was just "two lonely, depressed people who felt that they postponed happiness for too long and deserved a chance to love and be loved." _ (Of course, a completely justifiable reason for an EA/PA!) _

This past Sunday morning, while he was out for a run, I once again decided to take a peek at his computer. I probably wouldn't if I didn't feel like he wasn't being 100% truthful with me. I went through several folders of e-mails and other correspondence. Naturally all of the salacious e-mails have been deleted, but I found an e-mail to her which alludes to the fact that he had a secret e-mail account after May 10 (which is when I found out about the affair) and continued to send personal messages to her through that account.

Naturally, I was furious. When H came home from his run, I "lied" and told him that I had done a Google search on his name (which I really do from time to time anyway, because he's quoted in the press a lot) and I found a gmail account associated with his name - "***@gmail.com". He looked at me quizzically and insisted that it was an OLD e-mail address that he hasn't used in years, but kept asking how I found out about it. I asked him if he ever sent OW e-mails through that address and he said "I don't think so .... no, probably not ... it's an old address..no, I never sent her anything, and if I did, I don't really remember." I asked him why he had a "secret" e-mail address. He said that he opened it several years ago when he was registering on pornography sites (!!!!) -- that he didn't want to use his real name and e-mail address. He said the stuff on the e-mail account is old. I asked him to open the e-mail client and show me what was on there. Of course, he "_couldn't remember_" the password (_because he hasn't used the account in so long_), so I didn't see anything.

This episode lead to a three hour discussion/argument about our existing situation and my distrust of him and his activities. Throughout our discussion, he swore up and down that he's being truthful about everything and that he's doing *exactly* what I asked him to do - i.e., _telling me when he hears from OW_. I asked him how much longer he was going to be involved with OW's personal project (the marketing materials for her new business) -- a week? a month? three months? I told him that she is a grown woman and very capable of interacting with the designer on her own. I said that he already did a lot for her and that he finally needed to put a stop to everything because it was evident that he cared more about her feelings than mine. His response was ..."Why does this always have to be about YOU?? What about MY feelings? My feelings of guilt and my need to fulfill my obligations?" 

Then he went into a very long dissertation about how he can't live like this anymore ... always being interrogated by me ... how I've spent HUNDREDS of hours asking him questions and going over the same things - "his mind is exhausted and then I start bringing up details of the affair, ironically when he's starting to feel like his old (happy) self again" and that I "don't know how it feels for him to walk around with all these agonizing thoughts and feelings swirling around in his head" -- that he's "exhausted and stressed and feels like he wants to throw up all the time" and that he'll "never feel calm and happy again .... until all of his obligations are met ... obligations to me, to our kids (ages 14, 16 & 18), to his clients, to his employees, etc." (Did someone call for a Drama King?!) Then he said "maybe we should think about separating for a while ... I need to get calm, I need my brain to relax and I can't do it here when you keep asking questions and having doubts." I told him that I wasn't interested in a separation and that I felt we were making progress on our marriage. He then apologized and said that he knows I need to ask questions ... and he'll try to answer them ... but he's mentally worn out and exhausted. The truth is that H doesn't want me to bring up the EA/PA at all because the guilt eats away at him and he can't deal with it.

Finally he said "What do you want me to do? Tell her that I can't work on her project anymore?" And I said "*Yes*." (Uh, hello!!) So he said he would write her letter and would forward it to me so I could read it. It took him a few days to write it. When I read it (and her response), it seemed very calculated. There's a part of me that feels like he gave her a "heads-up" that this "official" letter was coming and she answered it in an "official" way, so as not to arouse suspicion on my part. Meanwhile ... I don't think OW's husband knows anything about the affair nor that she was actually terminated. Should I believe that this is really the end of everything?? I'm not sure where to go from here. It's very hard to trust and believe him. I want this marriage to work and he seems committed to it, but I'm not sure if I can believe anything he says.

Am I being naive? Am I blind and in denial about what's really going on? Should I assume that it's over with OW or am I being a fool?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Wait a sec....

The OW is married?

You must tell her husband IMMEDIATELY!

This will put a stop to this affair faster than anything else you could do.

Tell her husband the whole sordid story from start to finish just like you did here and watch the fireworks.

In answer to your last question...
Yes, you`re being a fool by entertaining even the remotest possibility that your husband is on the level with this.

That`s ok though we`re all somebodies fool sooner or later.

Tell the OW`s husband.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Munchie you are bing played here.

There must be zero contact between them. Zero. He hasn't let her go and is slowly continuing in his relationship with her.

He owes her nothing. Too bad if he feels bad for her. The hurt you have from his betrayal of you should be his ONLY priority. 

Zero contact. He also needs to give you full transparency . Neither is negotiable,

If he wont go for it, then expose to the OWH. Don't threaten to expose, just set a personal threshold of bs from him that you will tolerate, and then call him. Understand your not doing that to hurt your husband, you will be doing it to stop the affair. Why? Because he is still in contact her and is putting her problems and feelings above yours..

Stop being so accepting and nice to him. He is taking advantage of you to continue at least the EA
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

I've thought about sending the OW's husband copies of e-mails or letting him know ... but I'm afraid that OW will tell my husband and World War III will erupt here. Not sure I want to deal with that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Is it possible he is continuing contact to keep her as his "plan B" in case you revert to your prior pattern of deprioritizing him?

Have you asked him if he trusts you to continue to treat him well going forward? I don't think you will ever be able to trust him until he trusts you.




munchie said:


> First let me apologize for the *length* of this post. Some of you may already be familiar with my situation, as I've posted on this board before. On May 10th, I found out that my husband of 20 years was in the midst of a 5 month EA/PA with one of his biggest clients' VP (who also happens to be married). The affair allegedly ended once I found out ... but my H did not want to resign the client's account because it represented a six-figure piece of business for my husband's firm (_of which he's the owner_).
> 
> I was EXTREMELY uncomfortable with my H continuing to do consulting for that company - but he *insisted* that most of the work he did there involved five or six other people, he didn't work directly with OW on any projects and that he didn't want his firm to lose the income of this client. Again, I _didn't love_ that he continued to work with them, but I didn't demand that he drop the client - just that he have little to no interaction with OW when he was there. He promised he wouldn't have interaction with her other than "hello" if he saw her in the hallway.
> 
> ...


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

He is not committed to you if he continues contact for any reason. His priority should be to YOU. Not even work has a higher priority.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

munchie said:


> I've thought about sending the OW's husband copies of e-mails or letting him know ... but I'm afraid that OW will tell my husband and World War III will erupt here. Not sure I want to deal with that.


The problem is you have been operating in recovering from the affair mode, while he has been continuing it on.

The only mistake here was letting him have any contact with her. It went from he might have to say hello, to him actually having interaction with her. He is falling back into the affair.

You need to switch back into confrontation and ending mode now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

munchie said:


> I've thought about sending the OW's husband copies of e-mails or letting him know ... but I'm afraid that OW will tell my husband and World War III will erupt here. Not sure I want to deal with that.


I think you should tell the OW’s husband. I also think you should tell your H what you are going to do. And I think you should also be prepared for your H to leave you for the OW. I think you are right about WW III.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

munchie said:


> I've thought about sending the OW's husband copies of e-mails or letting him know ... but I'm afraid that OW will tell my husband and World War III will erupt here. Not sure I want to deal with that.


It`s the best way to deal with it.

It will stop his affair fantasy dead in it`s tracks when her husband puts his foot down.

I would tell him tomorrow that he must end all contact with this woman.

I would then monitor his communications and if he is still in contact with her I`d send the OWH everything you have on the affair without telling him a word.

The shock value will let him know you`re very serious.

He owes her nothing and you most definitely owe her nothing.

She`s playing games with your marriage why should she go unscathed?


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## Locard (May 26, 2011)

Grow a pair and expose this smut.


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## chattycathy (Aug 19, 2011)

Tell the OWH as soon as possible.
Do not use it as leverage or tell your H or OW you are going to do it.

Your H will be madder than can be and say vile, heinous stuff to you like you blew it and he was going to stay with you but not now. That is because you are messing with his fun. Ignore the evil stuff that comes from his mouth and prepare to hear it. Don't let that stop you though. Ultimately, it is the right thing to do for your marriage and yourself.

BTW.....what you have been going through is not that unusual and not your fault and not fun.


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

@MEM ... I'm still here!! Thanks for chiming in. I want to believe him and he should believe me. I've been working SO HARD to make things right between us. Things go along great for long stretches and then something triggers a doubt inside me. I approach him about it and then all hell breaks loose. He completely loses his patience with what he feels is my incessant probing. I don't think asking him a detail about the affair once a week is incessant. He told me the other day that he wanted me to leave him alone and not have sex with him - that he feels too guilty and hates himself for what he did to her, to me, to her co-workers, etc and he just wants to get over his anxiety without interruption. But that very night he tried to have sex with me! I've come to realize that he's deeply troubled and I think he has emotions to deal with that existed way before we ever met - 25 years ago!


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

You are not being naive. He is still having an affair. You are enabling it by still tolerating them being in contact and also because YOU HAVE NOT EXPOSED THE AFFAIR TO OW HUSBAND!!! You need to do that asap and without any warning beforehand to your hubby or the OW so they don't have time to corroborate their stories and make you look like the crazy lady. Tell her husband that she was terminated too due to the affair. Stop keeping their dirty little secrets.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

AFEH said:


> I think you should tell the OW’s husband. I also think you should tell your H what you are going to do.


NOOOOOO!!! Absolutely not! They had an afffair behind her back without any warnng to her....she should not give them any warning about exposing the affair. If she tells them before it gives them time to get their story straight...lie and minimize the affair. They WILL make her look like a psycho jealous wife who misconstrued their relationship and try to come across as innocent. DO NOT GIVE THEM ANY WARNING OF Exposing the affair beforehand!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Jellybeans said:


> NOOOOOO!!! Absolutely not! They had an afffair behind her back without any warnng to her....she should not give them any warning about exposing the affair. If she tells them before it gives them time to get their story straight...lie and minimize the affair. They WILL make her look like a psycho jealous wife who misconstrued their relationship and try to come across as innocent. DO NOT GIVE THEM ANY WARNING OF Exposing the affair beforehand!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sure you could do it that way. But I prefer not to let others standards dictate mine. Others have their own values and beliefs and rules of behaviour, doesn’t mean I have to behave like them. It’s my “Do unto others” code. Someone’s to show the way, be the example, be the rock and be above it all and keep their honour, principles, dignity, self-respect and self-esteem while others worlds go crazy with lies, deceits and back-stabbing. Why go down in the gutter with them? And if you are out for revenge, be sure to dig two graves before you start that particular journey in life.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Someone’s to show the way, be the example, be the rock and be above it all and keep their honour, principles, dignity, self-respect and self-esteem while others worlds go crazy with lies, deceits and back-stabbing. Why go down in the gutter with them? And if you are out for revenge, be sure to dig two graves before you start that particular journey in life.


You do not sink into the gutter by informing the OWH that his wife is having an affair.

You don`t sink into the gutter by not informing your H first.

You do gain an upper hand and throw the illicit affair into a tailspin.

Personally, if my wife were having an affair EVERYONE would be informed and she`d never have a clue I knew about it until she had the D-Papers in her hand.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

why didn't you just say to him, "If you have nothing to hide then you won't mind opening up the email right now and give me your password." If he goes on about how you don't trust him tell that you have damn good reason that you shouldn't right now- he had an affair.

Complete transparency is needed. You must make it clear to him that his privacy is null and void and you must have access to everything or it's over.

And YES tell the OWH now. Honestly if he erupts and gets upset then it means he has no desire to R with you in the proper way and thus anything you do to fix the marriage will fail.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Sure you could do it that way. But I prefer not to let others standards dictate mine. Others have their own values and beliefs and rules of behaviour, doesn’t mean I have to behave like them. It’s my “Do unto others” code. Someone’s to show the way, be the example, be the rock and be above it all and keep their honour, principles, dignity, self-respect and self-esteem while others worlds go crazy with lies, deceits and back-stabbing. Why go down in the gutter with them? And if you are out for revenge, be sure to dig two graves before you start that particular journey in life.


It's not about "standards." It's not about back-stabbing. It's not about "revenge." It's not about going down "in the gutter with them."

It's about PROTECTING her marriage. It's about exposing the affair. It's done without warning so it does not give them ANY time to get their stories straight, corroborate timelines, minimize the affair, have comparable stories, explanations, justifications, rationalizations.

If they know beforehand she is going to expose, you can bet your bottom dollar that they will discuss timelines, what happened, and tell the Ow's H that Munch is a "crazy woman who caught wind that we were working together and has it out for" the OW. How Munch is a jealous/insecure woman going through problems in her own marriage and is very sensitive about her husband talking to any other woman... OW will say "Munch's H was just trying to help me with work. We ha da project/account together and he was working with me on that. Now he's helping me with my new business since he's very well-versed in my career/business so he can lend a hand. His wife is nuts and off her rocker and she just wants to start drama/create problems in our marriage because hers isn't happy." Then if OW H calls Munch's H, Munch's H will vouch for all of this and say "I am so sorry to hear about this. My wife is going through a hard time right now and can be jealous, but yes, I can assure you, your wife & I have a professional relationship and that is it and I'm now helping her set up her new business/career since we are in the same field. I do not want any problems with you. Again, I apologize for any inconveniece this has caused you and have asked my wife to stop contactin gyou. Again. Sorry. My wife is crazy. You know how women can be crazy."

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF MUNCH GIVES ANY WARNING BEFORE EXPOSING THE AFFAIR.

*DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT *WARN BEFORE EXPOSING THE AFFAIR. JUST DO IT!!!!



tacoma said:


> You do not sink into the gutter by informing the OWH that his wife is having an affair.
> 
> You don`t sink into the gutter by not informing your H first.
> 
> ...


Bingo!!!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Jellybeans, you obviously don't know the background.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Afeh, enlighten me. 

What did I miss?

I read her post. My advice is the same. 

I don't believe the disloyal and affair partner should be given a heads up of exposure in any instance. Ever.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

Mucnchie, I'm very sorry to hear this. It really sounds like he still has at least one oar in the water in regards to maintaining his realtionship with her.

I wonder what she told her hubby when she was released?

Anyway; I think you should expose. Your husband sounds like he isn't particularly remorseful (at least as far as your feelings go) and he needs the sharp jolt of reality. 

She needs to not have anymore contact with him; period.


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## oaksthorne (Mar 4, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Afeh, enlighten me.
> 
> What did I miss?
> 
> ...


Yeah this guy is still involved, and he and his AP should be exposed without warning.:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

tacoma said:


> You do not sink into the gutter by informing the OWH that his wife is having an affair.
> 
> You don`t sink into the gutter by not informing your H first.
> 
> ...


We differ. That's all. I wouldn't deliberately hurt anybody let alone a woman I love or loved at one time. For me you are talking about spite and revenge, spiteful and revengeful behaviour. If you are personally I think that very small minded. It's not the "bigger person". Not who I want to be or who I will be no matter how much I feel like being that way.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Jellybeans said:


> Afeh, enlighten me.
> 
> What did I miss?
> 
> ...


The affair is already well exposed, known about and acknowledged. It is not known though if the OW's husband knows about the affair.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

AFEH said:


> We differ. That's all. I wouldn't deliberately hurt anybody let alone a woman I love or loved at one time. For me you are talking about spite and revenge, spiteful and revengeful behaviour. If you are personally I think that very small minded. It's not the "bigger person".


It's not hurting someone or being spiteful or vindictive. It's protecting two marriages by exposing an affair that has become a cancer to both of them. It's letting all parties know what the deal is. The longer someone keeps their mouth shut about an affair, the longer they enable the affair, keep it a secret, help it grow. An affair isn't a secret anymore once exposed. As long as she keeps the secret from all the parties who need to know about it, deserve the truth, she is helping the affair stay dark and covered up.



AFEH said:


> The affair is already well exposed, known about and acknowledged. It is not known though if the OW's husband knows about the affair.


The affair is not well exposed if the OW's husband doesn't know about it. 

So she should tell him. Then that way, he will know for certain. 



munchie said:


> Meanwhile ... I don't think OW's husband knows anything about the affair nor that she was actually terminated.





munchie said:


> I've thought about sending the OW's husband copies of e-mails or letting him know ... but I'm afraid that OW will tell my husband and World War III will erupt here. Not sure I want to deal with that.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I did say to expose the affair to the OW’s H. It's just the way it's done and the motivations for doing it.

One way will make matters worse, while another way may well actually help the marriage. If it's done to hurt, if it's done in a bitter and resentful, backhanded, underhanded way it will make matters worse and quite possibly end the marriage. Which is what Munchie is trying to avoid.

Never mind.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

The motivation for exposing an affair is just that--to expose it so that all parties are aware of what's going on. 

It used to protect the marriages and so that all parties are on the same page.

I'm not sure how exposing makes something "worse?" How is exposing "backhanded?" No matter how you slice it, an affair is an affair. It's wrong. And should be exposed to all married parties.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Jellybeans said:


> The motivation for exposing an affair is just that--to expose it so that all parties are aware of what's going on.
> 
> It used to protect the marriages and so that all parties are on the same page.
> 
> I'm not sure how exposing makes something "worse?" How is exposing "backhanded?" No matter how you slice it, an affair is an affair. It's wrong. And should be exposed to all married parties.


Agree

Expose the affair once and for all thereafter move on to the next step.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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