# Or in this case, sex after marriage



## Deejo

8 Reasons Divorced Sex is Better Than Married Sex


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## chillymorn

Familiartiy breeds contempt!


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## ScarletBegonias

Seems like she's trying to find a silver lining in an unfortunate situation so she's talking it up like divorced sex is the best thing ever. It kinda makes me feel sorry for her that she feels the need to justify her choices by insisting her sex life is so much better than that of married folks.

It's tough to tell but it almost seems like if she had communicated more effectively with her exH,the sex could have been improved.


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## Deejo

committed4ever said:


> Sounds like neither one was willing to work on the marriage. She likes casual sex with different partners so maybe she wasn't marriage material anyway.


Interesting and rather scathing perspective.



committed4ever said:


> All those things she does with different men she coUld have explored with her husband.


Only if her husband was interested in exploring with her ... which he wasn't, amongst many other things they were presumably incompatible or at odds with, hence the divorce.



committed4ever said:


> I wonder just how great casual sex with condoms everytime can be? Or else ... stds


I truly admire people that can be married for years and maintain healthy, balanced, relationships and active, fulfilling sex lives. I don't presume that their lives are boring, dull, or they are kidding themselves.

The purpose of my post was for those struggling with what their lives might look like, or could be, after working through the emotions surrounding the dissolution of a marriage. I'm very familiar with what those emotions and actions can look like, because I have done it.

You want to make her look like a wh0re and focus on the negatives of sex, or that any sex outside the scope of a long term relationship is 'casual', that is your prerogative.

I've been with a lot more than 3 women since my divorce. No condoms, not once. I'm clean as a whistle. We used open and honest communication, you know, that same tool that makes your marriage successful and fulfilling.

For all of the arguments we have around here about women making their own choices about their lives or their sexuality, I thought this article would spread some good cheer.

The point isn't that divorced sex is 'better' than married sex. The point is that there can be a very fulfilling life, including sex, after divorce.


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## Shooboomafoo

She should at least get paid for her services.


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## ScarletBegonias

I had some crazy sex post divorce.I don't feel I'm a wh*re for it though and I don't feel this lady is either. I guess I'm being picky bc I don't care for how she titled her article. Divorced sex isn't any better than married sex. HER divorced sex is better than her married sex. MY married sex is better than MY divorced sex. 

That's why I got the impression she is trying to justify her choices by knocking married sex. I'm sure that likely wasn't her intention but at first read,that's one way to interpret it.


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## Jellybeans

Divorced here, and I cannot relate to this at all:

_4. Fewer inhibitions:
This one was true for me, but might not be the case for all women. I wanted to try new things in the bedroom when I was married, I just didn’t know how to tell him. He was the type that would have assumed I was having an affair if I brought up any new sexual positions, so I just didn’t bring it up. But since my divorce, I have had no problem at all telling my partner(s) exactly what I wanted. It’s liberating to say what you want them to do and not have to worry about being questioned about it._

I think it is great that the author can feel less "inhibited now" but isn't the point of being in a partnered/long-term relationship that fact that you can let loose with your partner? I wonder why anyone would marry someone or be in a relationship with someone they feel they can't be "uninhibited" with in the bedroom... ? It's a shame if she spent many years w/ someone sexually who she felt she couldn't explore that with. And I guess if that is the case I see why she is happy to be divorced. It's just odd to me, IMO.

With that said, I have heard of many divorced folks say their sex lives/sex is better now so that is great for them.


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## Fenix

Wow.

 Well, for me, #2, 4, 5, 6 and 7 all were pretty spot on. Yay me!!
I also know exactly why.

Ultimately, it is just more fun to have sex with someone that I can trust and whom my gut isn't screaming cheater.


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## COGypsy

I think the point of the articles title was probably to chip away at the fallacy that women had better not divorce because they'll never find anything better than what they have and they'll end up dried up old maids if they don't stay in their unsatisfying marriages.

Having come from a sexless marriage, I can tell you that divorce is the best thing I've ever, ever done. Ever. Period. Full stop. In every single aspect, every single way. Especially sex. And getting to have it again. Pretty much whenever I want. Granted, a lot of that is due to my fantastic boyfriend, but without the stress and judgement of marriage, which was something my boyfriend and I both experienced in our past marriages, we each have a much more satisfying life than before.

I do think that perhaps its with women of a certain age, but I think bad married sex is far more the norm than the alternative. When you spend half your life hearing that wanting/having/enjoying sex makes you into a loose, diseased, slvt and wh0re, why on earth would you feel like you had the freedom to explore sexually in the confines of marriage? I mean the last thing I would have ever wanted my husband to think of me would be things like that! I don't think you can flip the switch on decades of socialization to never give it up and certainly never like it if you do, just because you get a ring on your finger.... I hope that the same message isn't being passed on still, but somehow I doubt it.


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## Shooboomafoo

I don't know of any concept being socially promoted that says anyone should stay in a bad sexless marriage. The concept of dumping a marriage to pursue garbage sure is though. This article seems to promote just that. Forget about the concept of family and your word meaning anything, because if your sex life seems boring, you can have it all!!!! Nothing else matters! YOU are all that matters... Good ol' Huffington Post, anti-family, anti-God, liberal "self is all that matters" concept.. 
To write about how good her sex life was, and compare it to her husband was typical HuffPost poor taste. 
I came from a sexless marriage too, and not from lack of capability, or desire whether she was 300lbs or 180lbs, I was ALWAYS ready to go, ready to explore, and vocal about it. She however, viewed things like BJ's insulting. No matter how many O's she had while I went down on her. I enjoyed giving her pleasure, and could not say the same for her attitude towards me. After years of being told that I was hassling her, and pressuring her, to that becoming labeled as "whiney", I gave up. FK that! Maybe she will eventually get around to liking herself again to the point of realizing she had a good, willing man there, open to exploration, literally ablaze with desire.. For some reason, the last 6 years of my marriage were literally sexless. I wasn't going to push or prod any longer. I had already reached the point of feeling like she didn't want me, no matter the excuse this week.. Whenever we "Did" she always seemed and acted like she had fun. So, I don't know what happened. Never was given any inclination as to what the real problem was. 
But, she found someone else, cheated on me with him, married him 2 years after the divorce, and moved him into the marital home with my kid and her. Their life is one of that highschool short lived limerance that this lady writes about,, which is garbage and infantile.

Despite the lack of sex, I figured it was a mere problem we were having that would eventually get worked out, once she solved some issues she had within herself (or as she had explained).
I trusted that, and never once thought my marriage was being considered for divorce.

Would I want to continue in a marriage that is sexless? No, of course not, but I expected something to be worked out or some headway to be made as I figured married couples do, who aren't looking to dissolution as a fix. This article seems to promote that as a means to an end without regard to trying to work things out.

Sure I look forward to having a good sex life with a person, but to me it is more than using one another for pleasure. The concept of a LOT of men having been with a woman I am interested in, turns that interest right off. Don't know why, but it grosses me out, and leaves no room for a special place in her heart, being guy #4 of the week. IF I wanted to just get off, there's plenty of options including the using of another person, but it is never that easy, and the risks are prevalent. 
Enjoying sex doesn't make you a loose/diseased/slvt and wh0re, but
I agree with Jellybeans, I wanted it "in" the marriage. Not having to throw everything away to go out and sleep with a bunch of people, report about it on the HuffPost and stick another star on my forehead for the accolades I get from disheartened married people.

Having a lot of random sex, says to me that this person is not interested in a committed relationship. It says that she would not be happy settling down, and I would always wonder if she was getting bored with me. 
There is a point that too many partners just ruins it for me, appears to be a lack of self respect that also carries with it a lack of respect for others, and for promises. The more I read from women today, who post these kinds of things, the more I feel like there is not going to be anyone for me. If this attitude is prevalent in the minds of women today, then I don't see a lot of hope for keeping the candle lit while married to them. 

Incidentally, I have not had sex in the 2 years since my marriage, and live alone. I haven't dated either, because I think I am still in a skeptical cynical stage. The more I read of sht like this, the more it supports my cynicism.


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## Deejo

Shooboomafoo said:


> Incidentally, I have not had sex in the 2 years since my marriage, and live alone. I haven't dated either, because I think I am still in a skeptical cynical stage. The more I read of sht like this, the more it supports my cynicism.


Or ... you could choose to go out and get laid Shoo. It's your balance sheet to reconcile.

From my perspective, that article could just as easily have been a post made by someone here on the boards.

She certainly could have used a more tame headline, but then, it's all about eyeballs on the page isn't it? Controversy loves an audience.

I tend to agree with COGypsy's perspective on the slant of the article.

Getting out of a BAD marriage, can lead to a BETTER and more fulfilling life. If that's considered to just be selfish, then I'm very content being selfish.


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## Fenix

Deejo said:


> Or ... you could choose to go out and get laid Shoo. It's your balance sheet to reconcile.
> 
> From my perspective, that article could just as easily have been a post made by someone here on the boards.
> 
> She certainly could have used a more tame headline, but then, it's all about eyeballs on the page isn't it? Controversy loves an audience.
> 
> I tend to agree with COGypsy's perspective on the slant of the article.
> 
> Getting out of a BAD marriage, can lead to a BETTER and more fulfilling life. If that's considered to just be selfish, then I'm very content being selfish.


Yep.

I think a lot of men also have this madonna vs the ***** thing going on with their wife, which is a straitjacket for their wife's sexuality. 

Finally, I don't get the condemnation of the article. She is blunt with this :Here are eight reasons sex after *my* divorce was better *than the sex I had while married*: It is her situation and for her, the better sex is a gift. I never got the idea that that was why her marriage broke down...this was just a silver lining.

And I love Huffpost, but I don't take it seriously. This is a puff piece meant to entertain. period. Of course, I am a liberal, so there is that!!


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## MSP

Deejo said:


> The point isn't that divorced sex is 'better' than married sex.


Other than the fact that the article gives eight reasons why divorced sex is better than married sex.

Deejo, I like the vast majority of your posts. But this article is just divorce porn, selling divorce fantasy to bored wives. It might feel empowering to those who are divorced, but for those who are not, it's destructive to their marriages. 

I'm sure that articles like this one damage as many marriages as porn addiction does.


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## Fenix

MSP said:


> Other than the fact that the article gives eight reasons why divorced sex is better than married sex.
> 
> Deejo, I like the vast majority of your posts. But this article is just divorce porn, selling divorce fantasy to bored wives. It might feel empowering to those who are divorced, but for those who are not, it's destructive to their marriages.
> 
> I'm sure that articles like this one damage as many marriages as porn addiction does.


Ummm....this is the *Life After Divorce* subgroup, isn't it?


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## COGypsy

MSP said:


> Other than the fact that the article gives eight reasons why divorced sex is better than married sex.
> 
> Deejo, I like the vast majority of your posts. But this article is just divorce porn, selling divorce fantasy to bored wives. It might feel empowering to those who are divorced, but for those who are not, it's destructive to their marriages.
> 
> I'm sure that articles like this one damage as many marriages as porn addiction does.


What does it say about a marriage in the first place though, if it can be toppled by an anonymous internet editorial? If fleeting pixels on a screen are enough to do a marriage in, perhaps that's not an entirely bad thing?


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## MSP

Fenix said:


> Ummm....this is the *Life After Divorce* subgroup, isn't it?


Oops. I came here from the Recent Threads page and wasn't paying attention. 

I honestly don't mean any offence to anyone divorced. However, I still dislike the article itself.


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## Shooboomafoo

Deejo said:


> Or ... you could choose to go out and get laid Shoo. It's your balance sheet to reconcile."
> 
> And then write an article about it on the Huff Post.
> I don't think it is selfish to want a good sex life, especially while married, and if that is the straw that tips the boat for some people, then I guess that is the depth of their considerations.
> 
> I am currently working through my own thought processes on this, willing to accept deficiencies in my attitude towards it. Throwing my opinion out there like this, is all it is, and I don't expect the world to suddenly change because of the way I think about it.
> I do however, notice a lot of self-adulation in her story. Look-at-me syndrome... I too worry about the women-or-men that may be having a hard time right now, and the support of a divorce being the answer to all things.


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## 2ntnuf

Deejo said:


> Interesting and rather scathing perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> Only if her husband was interested in exploring with her ... which he wasn't, amongst many other things they were presumably incompatible or at odds with, hence the divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> I truly admire people that can be married for years and maintain healthy, balanced, relationships and active, fulfilling sex lives. I don't presume that their lives are boring, dull, or they are kidding themselves.
> 
> The purpose of my post was for those struggling with what their lives might look like, or could be, after working through the emotions surrounding the dissolution of a marriage. I'm very familiar with what those emotions and actions can look like, because I have done it.
> 
> You want to make her look like a wh0re and focus on the negatives of sex, or that any sex outside the scope of a long term relationship is 'casual', that is your prerogative.
> 
> *I've been with a lot more than 3 women since my divorce. No condoms, not once. I'm clean as a whistle. We used open and honest communication, you know, that same tool that makes your marriage successful and fulfilling.
> *
> For all of the arguments we have around here about women making their own choices about their lives or their sexuality, I thought this article would spread some good cheer.
> 
> The point isn't that divorced sex is 'better' than married sex. The point is that there can be a very fulfilling life, including sex, after divorce.





2ntnuf said:


> I just have one question, Deejo. How do you know that the woman you ask, is telling the truth about being clean? How would she know if you are telling the truth? ETA: I guess that's two.
> 
> How often, with whom, and what each does is subjective. Not my business. Thing is, so is the satisfaction level. So, I congratulate her, but don't expect it to be the same for everyone.


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## Shooboomafoo

.....and my evidently prudish attitude is probably why I haven't gotten laid from any strangers.. 
Not had the best of luck with finding someone attracted to me, who I am attracted to.. 
I am the type that wants more than just sex with someone if it is going to get that far. Probably also why I don't do that,, I would easily mistake it for "love" and desire for me, and get hurt.


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## ScarletBegonias

Shooboomafoo said:


> .....and my evidently prudish attitude is probably why I haven't gotten laid from any strangers..
> Not had the best of luck with finding someone attracted to me, who I am attracted to..
> I am the type that wants more than just sex with someone if it is going to get that far. Probably also why I don't do that,, I would easily mistake it for "love" and desire for me, and get hurt.


My husband is this way...no shame in that at all. What's happening to you now is what happened to him for years and years while he was single. 

I think being this way makes him such a great husband.


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## Fenix

Shooboomafoo said:


> .....and my evidently prudish attitude is probably why I haven't gotten laid from any strangers..
> Not had the best of luck with finding someone attracted to me, who I am attracted to..
> I am the type that wants more than just sex with someone if it is going to get that far. Probably also why I don't do that,, I would easily mistake it for "love" and desire for me, and get hurt.


I don't think you are prudish. I think you value commitment and see divorce as ugly (though maybe necessary sometimes?). You, like me, were married to a cheater. That does a number on you as far as the sex thing goes. Maybe that has something to do with your feelings on the article?

I don't remember how long you have been split from your ex but it is clear that you haven't healed...and that's ok. It takes time. When you find someone with whom you are willing to take the leap, you may find that it is exhilarating and different than it was with your ex. It doesn't have to include a lot of sleeping around, but it does mean putting yourself out there, trusting your gut and being pretty solid within yourself. For me and my guy (who I have been seeing for 4 months now and who is on the same path as I am) it has been a grand adventure and very, very different than our previous relationship.

I think the article was hopeful, reassuring and fun for those of us who have been through the wringer and were, perhaps, hesitant about this next step. I was with my ex for 30 years/25 married. He was my one and only until the split, due to my discovering his serial cheating. Put yourself in my shoes when reading the article. You may feel differently then.


eta: Oh, and Shoo? You will get hurt when you get back out there. That is life. But, you will be able to handle it, learn from it and move on. My advice (not that you asked) is to listen to your gut on any red flags, be open and honest and most importantly, be yourself.


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## 2ntnuf

Prove That You’re STD-Free – With Your Phone | Clutch Magazine

Isn't technology wonerful? 

Shoo, you're not a prude. You are you. Where I live, there are many single women. Not too many of them go out. Most, you wouldn't even know they were there, unless you take a walk and happen by their door while they are looking out or something. 

You are less in the minority than you think. There are tons of people who are done. You, at least, have hope for something once you are healed. 

I don't foresee myself doing much in the near future, either. I many never, but no one knows for certain. We do what we can...


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## wtf2012

Deejo said:


> *I've been with a lot more than 3 women since my divorce. No condoms, not once*. I'm clean as a whistle. We used open and honest communication, you know, that same tool that makes your marriage successful and fulfilling.


This risky behavior no matter how you choose to view it. Unless you think HPV is no big deal.

If you have sex with enough people, even with protection, there is a point where it becomes a mathematical certainty you will be exposed or sleep with someone who has been exposed to HPV and/or HSV. 

For the life of me I can not imagine how you are able to find so many partners with open honest communication with, the tools of successful marriage, to have unprotected sex with. Since you are divorced, I presume you are in the dating pol with a significant amount of others who are divorced. How are you able to find these open honest communicators from nonforever marriages? (I am being serious in my curiosity)

I won't lecture about HPV, but I do want to make the point that it can take along time (months/years) to know you are "clean as a whistle" and that there is no test for men for HPV.


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## wtf2012

Shooboomafoo said:


> I don't know of any concept being socially promoted that says anyone should stay in a bad sexless marriage. The concept of dumping a marriage to pursue garbage sure is though. This article seems to promote just that. Forget about the concept of family and your word meaning anything, because if your sex life seems boring, you can have it all!!!! Nothing else matters! YOU are all that matters... Good ol' Huffington Post, anti-family, anti-God, liberal "self is all that matters" concept..
> To write about how good her sex life was, and compare it to her husband was typical HuffPost poor taste.
> I came from a sexless marriage too, and not from lack of capability, or desire whether she was 300lbs or 180lbs, I was ALWAYS ready to go, ready to explore, and vocal about it. She however, viewed things like BJ's insulting. No matter how many O's she had while I went down on her. I enjoyed giving her pleasure, and could not say the same for her attitude towards me. After years of being told that I was hassling her, and pressuring her, to that becoming labeled as "whiney", I gave up. FK that! Maybe she will eventually get around to liking herself again to the point of realizing she had a good, willing man there, open to exploration, literally ablaze with desire.. For some reason, the last 6 years of my marriage were literally sexless. I wasn't going to push or prod any longer. I had already reached the point of feeling like she didn't want me, no matter the excuse this week.. Whenever we "Did" she always seemed and acted like she had fun. So, I don't know what happened. Never was given any inclination as to what the real problem was.
> But, she found someone else, cheated on me with him, married him 2 years after the divorce, and moved him into the marital home with my kid and her. Their life is one of that highschool short lived limerance that this lady writes about,, which is garbage and infantile.
> 
> Despite the lack of sex, I figured it was a mere problem we were having that would eventually get worked out, once she solved some issues she had within herself (or as she had explained).
> I trusted that, and never once thought my marriage was being considered for divorce.
> 
> Would I want to continue in a marriage that is sexless? No, of course not, but I expected something to be worked out or some headway to be made as I figured married couples do, who aren't looking to dissolution as a fix. This article seems to promote that as a means to an end without regard to trying to work things out.
> 
> Sure I look forward to having a good sex life with a person, but to me it is more than using one another for pleasure. The concept of a LOT of men having been with a woman I am interested in, turns that interest right off. Don't know why, but it grosses me out, and leaves no room for a special place in her heart, being guy #4 of the week. IF I wanted to just get off, there's plenty of options including the using of another person, but it is never that easy, and the risks are prevalent.
> Enjoying sex doesn't make you a loose/diseased/slvt and wh0re, but
> I agree with Jellybeans, I wanted it "in" the marriage. Not having to throw everything away to go out and sleep with a bunch of people, report about it on the HuffPost and stick another star on my forehead for the accolades I get from disheartened married people.
> 
> Having a lot of random sex, says to me that this person is not interested in a committed relationship. It says that she would not be happy settling down, and I would always wonder if she was getting bored with me.
> There is a point that too many partners just ruins it for me, appears to be a lack of self respect that also carries with it a lack of respect for others, and for promises. The more I read from women today, who post these kinds of things, the more I feel like there is not going to be anyone for me. If this attitude is prevalent in the minds of women today, then I don't see a lot of hope for keeping the candle lit while married to them.
> 
> Incidentally, I have not had sex in the 2 years since my marriage, and live alone. I haven't dated either, because I think I am still in a skeptical cynical stage. The more I read of sht like this, the more it supports my cynicism.


You are not alone in how you feel. You described very succinctly many of the ideas I am wrestling with in my head was well.

I hope to one day find a partner who will value and appreciate my voluntarily limited sexuality, and I hope that person shares my values.

I came to hold these values by getting burned enough times in the dating pool, and I wish knew of places in the media where these values encouraged from a secular stance.


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## Deejo

MSP said:


> Oops. I came here from the Recent Threads page and wasn't paying attention.
> 
> I honestly don't mean any offence to anyone divorced. However, I still dislike the article itself.


I originally put this up in 'Sex in Marriage' and decided that it was far more fitting and appropriate for the Life After Divorce sub-forum.

That, and I certainly could have written the male version. Not compelled to take shots at my ex-wife's sexual prowess. If anything, I would compliment her. But I've learned more about sex in the last 5 years than I had in the previous 40.

I don't have casual sex. Others may feel differently.

I'm not promiscuous. Other may feel differently.

My entire paradigm surrounding intimacy has changed. I have no intentions of re-marrying in order to facilitate a fulfilling sex life. It simply isn't necessary. And I can honestly tell you, there was a point in time where I didn't agree with that assessment. I can understand if happily married people, or those with differently aligned principles disagree.

But for all of those other people who find themselves in a failed marriage, rejected, and their self-esteem is in the toilet ... I think it's important to know that there are other fulfilling options. I liked this one, because it was posted by a woman.


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## angelpixie

I read the article, and --

1.) It's an opinion piece. Nothing more, nothing less. The author doesn't pretend to be making a scientific case; doesn't pretend to be drawing conclusions about post-divorce sex in general. At the head of her list, it says this:
"Here are eight reasons sex after *my divorce* was better than the sex *I had while married*"

2.) She does not go into any detail about why her marriage ended. 

3.) She does not say who ended it. 

4.) She does not say that it ended because it was sexless, or that she found sex with her then-husband unsatisfying. 

5.) Some people are OK with sex that is not connected to an emotional relationship. If that's not who you are, don't get involved with someone like that.

6.) If that's not who you are, bashing those people on an internet forum will not do anything to affect them in any way. 

7.) People experience marriage in different ways. Many of us no longer have an option to have the marriages we dreamed of, with one lifetime partner, with whom we shared unending sexual bliss. Many of us had pretty awful marriages, that left us feeling like crap. And we heal in our own ways. 

8.) PLEASE, can we stop judging the fvck out of each other? Thank you.


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## Deejo

wtf2012 said:


> This risky behavior no matter how you choose to view it. Unless you think HPV is no big deal.
> 
> If you have sex with enough people, even with protection, there is a point where it becomes a mathematical certainty you will be exposed or sleep with someone who has been exposed to HPV and/or HSV.
> 
> For the life of me I can not imagine how you are able to find so many partners with open honest communication with, the tools of successful marriage, to have unprotected sex with. Since you are divorced, I presume you are in the dating pol with a significant amount of others who are divorced. How are you able to find these open honest communicators from nonforever marriages? (I am being serious in my curiosity)
> 
> I won't lecture about HPV, but I do want to make the point that it can take along time (months/years) to know you are "clean as a whistle" and that there is no test for men for HPV.


Sex is inherently risky, isn't it? 

What number, exactly ... is 'enough' people?

I can't quite shake the notion that those who subscribe to what I will define as a conservative (not in the political sense) view of sex, imagine that people, perhaps like myself, just randomly meet people and decide to f*ck.

Let me assure you, that ain't it.

The women I have been intimate with, I was involved in relationships with. Most also fairly recently out of bad or failed marriages.

And do you know what happens after a failed marriage, and you meet someone to whom you are attracted, can easily talk to, and treat each other as adults? 

You want to have sex ... without any of the stigma of being a teen, or a mother, or father, or divorcee. And you don't want to have to worry about 'what it means', or is it going to be forever. It means you felt safe with one another and you took that risk. It is part of the process of discovery, and an aspect to a relationship. Not the thing that defines it, or frames it.

If you are risk averse, I don't know what to tell you. Often before embarking into a relationship, part of the discussion IS getting tested. I've done it for partners 3 times, and once on my own.

I had a partner tell me she had herpes ... given to her by her cheating husband. I truly respected that she stepped up with that information. We still found ways to be intimate.

At some point you make a decision about how you want to conduct your life. I make no judgments upon those who choose differently.

My suggestion however, is to make choices that make you smile and feel good about yourself. Having sex with people that I care about doesn't fill me with trepidation. My life lessons have taught me that love isn't, nor need it be, forever. I don't say that in a cynical fashion. I have met some wonderful people, but our lives did not align in terms of maintaining a long term relationship. Dating as middle aged divorcee is nowhere near as straightforward as dating as a teen or twenty-something.
My operational mantra when it comes to relationships is; "I'm going to let it be, whatever it is meant to be."
Sometimes that is respectful and platonic, other times it is frenetic, fun, and passionate. 

Trust is a risk ... just like sex. 

The woman that wrote the article is celebrating what she has discovered after her divorce.

My advice is to find whatever it is that you want to celebrate after yours (the collective yours) and do it ... a lot.


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## MEM2020

Deejo,
There was a guy on here for a long time. Sexless unhappy marriage with two kids. He was the victim etc. He was also a doctor. 

He definitely had a generally sour view of women post divorce which isn't that unusual. But, the funny thing was that he claimed to be terrified of one of his girlfriends getting pregnant. He didn't want anymore kids, and was afraid of getting walloped with child support. And yet he was totally unwilling to get a vasectomy. 

He claimed to hate condoms (most men do) and so was at the mercy of his girlfriends honesty regarding birth control pills. 

I felt sorry for anyone who dated him. 

When he got challenged about the vasectomy thing he left the thread and hasn't returned to TAM since. 

I only mention this because there seem to be an endless list of dysfunction that people bring with them to a sexual relationships. 





Deejo said:


> Or ... you could choose to go out and get laid Shoo. It's your balance sheet to reconcile.
> 
> From my perspective, that article could just as easily have been a post made by someone here on the boards.
> 
> She certainly could have used a more tame headline, but then, it's all about eyeballs on the page isn't it? Controversy loves an audience.
> 
> I tend to agree with COGypsy's perspective on the slant of the article.
> 
> Getting out of a BAD marriage, can lead to a BETTER and more fulfilling life. If that's considered to just be selfish, then I'm very content being selfish.


----------



## MEM2020

Deejo,
The thing about marriage is that it adds a layer of stability that is child friendly. 

But I do feel that if you are past the age of wanting to procreate, marriage is inherently unfriendly to the more affluent person. 

I know myself well enough to know that I don't need the threat of being financially halved to treat a LTR partner well. That said, I wouldn't be willing to write someone a large check just because they've chosen to stop treating me well. 



QUOTE=Deejo;8839178]I originally put this up in 'Sex in Marriage' and decided that it was far more fitting and appropriate for the Life After Divorce sub-forum.

That, and I certainly could have written the male version. Not compelled to take shots at my ex-wife's sexual prowess. If anything, I would compliment her. But I've learned more about sex in the last 5 years than I had in the previous 40.

I don't have casual sex. Others may feel differently.

I'm not promiscuous. Other may feel differently.

My entire paradigm surrounding intimacy has changed. I have no intentions of re-marrying in order to facilitate a fulfilling sex life. It simply isn't necessary. And I can honestly tell you, there was a point in time where I didn't agree with that assessment. I can understand if happily married people, or those with differently aligned principles disagree.

But for all of those other people who find themselves in a failed marriage, rejected, and their self-esteem is in the toilet ... I think it's important to know that there are other fulfilling options. I liked this one, because it was posted by a woman.[/QUOTE]


----------



## 2ntnuf

"But I do feel that if you are past the age of wanting to procreate, marriage is inherently unfriendly to the more affluent person. "

This is so true. Those who don't have any real money to worry about, seem to be more interested in a good long-lasting comforting relationship.


----------



## wtf2012

Deejo said:


> Sex is inherently risky, isn't it?
> 
> What number, exactly ... is 'enough' people?
> 
> I can't quite shake the notion that those who subscribe to what I will define as a conservative (not in the political sense) view of sex, imagine that people, perhaps like myself, just randomly meet people and decide to f*ck.
> 
> Let me assure you, that ain't it.
> 
> The women I have been intimate with, I was involved in relationships with. Most also fairly recently out of bad or failed marriages.
> 
> And do you know what happens after a failed marriage, and you meet someone to whom you are attracted, can easily talk to, and treat each other as adults?
> 
> You want to have sex ... without any of the stigma of being a teen, or a mother, or father, or divorcee. And you don't want to have to worry about 'what it means', or is it going to be forever. It means you felt safe with one another and you took that risk. It is part of the process of discovery, and an aspect to a relationship. Not the thing that defines it, or frames it.
> 
> If you are risk averse, I don't know what to tell you. Often before embarking into a relationship, part of the discussion IS getting tested. I've done it for partners 3 times, and once on my own.
> 
> I had a partner tell me she had herpes ... given to her by her cheating husband. I truly respected that she stepped up with that information. We still found ways to be intimate.
> 
> At some point you make a decision about how you want to conduct your life. I make no judgments upon those who choose differently.
> 
> My suggestion however, is to make choices that make you smile and feel good about yourself. Having sex with people that I care about doesn't fill me with trepidation. My life lessons have taught me that love isn't, nor need it be, forever. I don't say that in a cynical fashion. I have met some wonderful people, but our lives did not align in terms of maintaining a long term relationship. Dating as middle aged divorcee is nowhere near as straightforward as dating as a teen or twenty-something.
> My operational mantra when it comes to relationships is; "I'm going to let it be, whatever it is meant to be."
> Sometimes that is respectful and platonic, other times it is frenetic, fun, and passionate.
> 
> Trust is a risk ... just like sex.
> 
> The woman that wrote the article is celebrating what she has discovered after her divorce.
> 
> My advice is to find whatever it is that you want to celebrate after yours (the collective yours) and do it ... a lot.


I guess I am a bit different in how I came to my conservative sexual views. I ignored alot of red flags when dating my now ex wife. She got around more than me, but I wasn't a "prude" either back then. Later on her pregnancy came with some unexpected news stemming from her dislike of condoms while she was single. 

After the whole lets get tested thing, oh good we are both all clear when beginning the "exclusive" portion of our relationship. Then months later finding out maybe not so clear. 

While the unpleasantness wasn't permanent (I hope), it did leave a lasting effect on my self esteem and I how view sexual risks. Also I have over the years I have learned from others experience.

I appreciate your side of the discussion. These are thoughts I wrestle with alot. 

My ex had an affair with a PUA womanizer ex FWB. He bragged about his notch number, being involved with BDSM porn, and other married women including his best friend's wife. He even used to show her naked pictures of the other women he was sleeping with. It was textbook PUA. I know you read some game websites, so he tended to go hard for preselection and social proof. Plus from what I know of his history with my ex-wife before I was in the picture, he was her "best." Think alpha widow. 

Our sexual values ended up being way different. This new reality made me rethink everything. 

I know still feel so lost in my worldview when comes to opposite sex relationships. I appreciate your view, and I used to be much closer to what you do. But I am not sure how I am ever gonna feel safe enough again for a casual relationship after my last 2 years. I know it will happen given enough time, but I am not sure how to celebrate that aspect after my divorce.


----------



## Jellybeans

Deejo said:


> My entire paradigm surrounding intimacy has changed. I have no intentions of re-marrying in order to facilitate a fulfilling sex life. It simply isn't necessary.


Hehe. I can so relate to this but will amend it personally to say: 

_My entire paradigm has changed. I have no intentions of re-marrying in order to facilitate anything ever. It simply isn't necessary. _

In fact, a guy who doesn't want to get married turns me right the fck on. 

I'm such a romantic. 

:rofl:

There is life after divorce. There is even great sex (from most peoples' accounts). Hehehe.


----------



## angelpixie

wtf2012 -- you hit the nail on the head. Your ex was showing you red flags, and now you can see that you ignored them. I don't know if you knew about the PUA/womanizing bf before you got serious with her, but if you did, she didn't just have red flags, she had a whole drill team of flag wavers and a marching band, to boot, to quote a phrase from my old DV support group.

Part of why we're here, hopefully what we leave here with, is a better understanding of what those red flags look like, in order to walk away in the future, before we get involved. And it's not just looking at other people; it's about looking at ourselves. What about us made someone with all those red flags attractive to us? What do we need to heal in order not to repeat those choices? 

First of all, nobody is going to be free of baggage. Nobody. But some people just have a bag or two, and some have a full matching set.  We're all human, and we all have issues. 

Not every woman is going to be like your ex-wife. Not every woman who likes sex, even outside of a committed relationship, is a slvt. People can be responsible, and many are. Be wise, be selective. Don't let your emotions or your hormones talk louder than your brain.


----------



## MEM2020

WTF,
I'm used to sleeping with someone I love, who (mostly ) loves me back. I don't want to sleep with someone I just 'like'. Deep sigh. Not saying I wouldn't. Just saying if anything ever happened with M2, my first preference would be to date without more than kissing until I was in love with someone. 

I might - sleep with someone who I loved but didn't love me back.
I might sleep with someone who I just liked and vice versa. 
I know I wouldn't sleep with someone who loved me, who I didn't love back. 





wtf2012 said:


> I guess I am a bit different in how I came to my conservative sexual views. I ignored alot of red flags when dating my now ex wife. She got around more than me, but I wasn't a "prude" either back then. Later on her pregnancy came with some unexpected news stemming from her dislike of condoms while she was single.
> 
> After the whole lets get tested thing, oh good we are both all clear when beginning the "exclusive" portion of our relationship. Then months later finding out maybe not so clear.
> 
> While the unpleasantness wasn't permanent (I hope), it did leave a lasting effect on my self esteem and I how view sexual risks. Also I have over the years I have learned from others experience.
> 
> I appreciate your side of the discussion. These are thoughts I wrestle with alot.
> 
> My ex had an affair with a PUA womanizer ex FWB. He bragged about his notch number, being involved with BDSM porn, and other married women including his best friend's wife. He even used to show her naked pictures of the other women he was sleeping with. It was textbook PUA. I know you read some game websites, so he tended to go hard for preselection and social proof. Plus from what I know of his history with my ex-wife before I was in the picture, he was her "best." Think alpha widow.
> 
> Our sexual values ended up being way different. This new reality made me rethink everything.
> 
> I know still feel so lost in my worldview when comes to opposite sex relationships. I appreciate your view, and I used to be much closer to what you do. But I am not sure how I am ever gonna feel safe enough again for a casual relationship after my last 2 years. I know it will happen given enough time, but I am not sure how to celebrate that aspect after my divorce.


----------



## heartsbeating

MEM11363 said:


> WTF,
> I'm used to sleeping with someone I love, who (mostly ) loves me back. I don't want to sleep with someone I just 'like'. Deep sigh. Not saying I wouldn't. Just saying if anything ever happened with M2, my first preference would be to date without more than kissing until I was in love with someone.
> 
> I might - sleep with someone who I loved but didn't love me back.
> I might sleep with someone who I just liked and vice versa.
> I know I wouldn't sleep with someone who loved me, who I didn't love back.


I didn't have the need to be married - but I did want to be with him. He's the only man I would ever marry. We met young and sex for me had to be with someone who gave a damn about me (not necessarily marriage) and who I gave a damn about in return. Plus my husband makes a mean breakfast.

The game of 'what ifs'... If I found myself in an alternate universe and even though I'm older, I have a feeling I'd follow the same sentiment now. I doubt I'd be comfortable with a casual one-off because it's the emotional connection that I value. The Catwoman costume would stay in the closet. hmm although those underground sex clubs my friend used to go to does sound amusing. I kid..! 

If my husband found himself in an alternate universe, he would consider there's no need for rules on these things and just go with what's right at the time. Apparently he would likely embody Duchovony's character, Hank. ahem. <End game>


----------



## Wolf1974

I have never lived in a sexless marriage nor would I. But if I did I would certainly say that divorced sex would of course be better than married sex.

But prior to last year of my marriage I thought the sex we had was incredible and fulfilling. Something about married sex trumps anything I have found in 4 years of being single.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Wolf1974 said:


> I have never lived in a sexless marriage nor would I. But if I did I would certainly say that divorced sex would of course be better than married sex.
> 
> But prior to last year of my marriage I thought the sex we had was incredible and fulfilling. Something about married sex trumps anything I have found in 4 years of being single.


Pretty much. This has been one of the hardest parts for me as a BS. It was such a blindeside for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## angelpixie

But I think the point of the article, and what Deejo was trying to say, was that when one doesn't have a choice anymore -- we're in Life After Divorce, after all -- one can focus on what one no longer has (married sex), or one can take some hope that being divorced is not a death knell for a good and healthy sex life.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Deejo is correct. The thing is, we are not all the same. My question was only to ask how he could feel safe believing someone with so much betrayal all over. I just would want to know for sure, or as sure as I could be. And, he gave a good answer. I appreciate that. 

Thing is, some folks don't really like casual or semi-casual relationships. It's totally new to them. It isn't completely new to me, but I am pretty much a babe in the woods. No, I don't expect to do anything for another year or two. That will be at least five years with no sex. That's a long time. 

So, I guess what I am saying is, I understand the fear and the challenge that stands before many divorcees. We are not alphas, like Deejo and MEM. So, we have to learn a whole different lifestyle. Or, we get really lucky. Anything is possible. 

For those who like those kinds of relationships, all I can say is, good for you. I hope you enjoy. I don't begrudge. It's maybe, sometimes, a little jealousy, but mostly just fear and a realization that I am who I am. I can likely tweek myself, but I don't know how much. 

The best anyone can do is to try as hard as they can and see where life leads. That's it. No one can know what will happen tomorrow. I think that's sort of what Deejo was trying to say in his one post. All we can do is live life the best we can.


----------



## Fenix

Can I just say that I hate the word "slvt" It is misogynistic.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: Or in this case, sex after marriage*



2ntnuf said:


> So, I guess what I am saying is, I understand the fear and the challenge that stands before many divorcees. We are not alphas, like Deejo and MEM. So, we have to learn a whole different lifestyle. Or, we get really lucky. Anything is possible.
> 
> For those who like those kinds of relationships, all I can say is, good for you. I hope you enjoy. I don't begrudge. It's maybe, sometimes, a little jealousy, but mostly just fear and a realization that I am who I am. I can likely tweek myself, but I don't know how much.


To be clear, in the lexicon of alpha and beta, my default setting is beta. I wanted to be with one woman, and do everything in my power to make her happy. I was separated for nearly four years before pulling the trigger on divorce. 

When I say that I shifted my entire paradigm about love, relationships, and my conduct as a man, I mean it. And TAM was a big part of that shift. MEM has been an outstanding resource and role model for years.

I never saw myself as someone who dates, or that would be open to sex outside the confines of a long term, loving relationship. Quite frankly, I had no idea who I was sexually. I defined my sexual self according to my partner. I didn't discover my sexual self until my marriage failed. 

I'm not saying that someone who can't go out there, meet someone and go to bed with them without the reassurance of longevity and commitment, doesn't know themselves sexually. 

As long as you are comfortable with, and understand the choices you make, whether they are based upon principles or fear (mine were the latter prior to readjustment), then there is nothing wrong with that.

What I'm trying to emphasize, is there is also nothing wrong with deciding you want to shift how sex plays into your definition of self, and what importance it has in contributing to your fulfillment. 

Somebody mentioned earlier, 'where do I find all of these women open to communication, and having sex?'

There is no doubt in my mind, now that I am tuned into myself, that I give off a sexual vibe. Faithful Wife calls it 'sexdar'. Consequently, I seem to attract very sexual partners. We align, and it isn't just about getting laid. But I can tell you without question that it makes getting laid a hell of a lot more exciting and fulfilling.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: Or in this case, sex after marriage*



MEM11363 said:


> Deejo,
> There was a guy on here for a long time. Sexless unhappy marriage with two kids. He was the victim etc. He was also a doctor.
> 
> He definitely had a generally sour view of women post divorce which isn't that unusual. But, the funny thing was that he claimed to be terrified of one of his girlfriends getting pregnant. He didn't want anymore kids, and was afraid of getting walloped with child support. And yet he was totally unwilling to get a vasectomy.
> 
> He claimed to hate condoms (most men do) and so was at the mercy of his girlfriends honesty regarding birth control pills.
> 
> I felt sorry for anyone who dated him.
> 
> When he got challenged about the vasectomy thing he left the thread and hasn't returned to TAM since.
> 
> I only mention this because there seem to be an endless list of dysfunction that people bring with them to a sexual relationships.


I remember very well the gentleman to whom you are referring, MEM. 

My irony is despite having made my own personal sexual discovery, it has come at a time where I consistently have to work around sexual dysfunction. At just about 49, I have ED. It has gotten progressively worse over the last 2 years. It has not and does not resolve based upon how wild in the sack, or emotionally engaging my partner is.
If I want to have a robust sex life, I have no choice but to have very, frank and open discussions with my partners.


----------



## Catherine602

Disgusting. Her husband lived for 12 years with a fraud. She never told him anything, never gave him a chance. Like having a stealth ego killer in your home. 

I hope he realizes it was not his fault but just the luck of the draw. He got a woman who felt entitled to an instant romance hero without lifting a finger. 

She judged him for all of that time in her mind without telling him what she was thinking. She should be ashamed of revealing how vapid she is instead of broadcasting. 

Stupid article by a stupid person advancing stupid ideals.


----------



## Deejo

Catherine602 said:


> Disgusting. Her husband lived for 12 years with a fraud. She never told him anything, never gave him a chance. Like having a stealth ego killer in your home.
> 
> I hope he realizes it was not his fault but just the luck of the draw. He got a woman who felt entitled to an instant romance hero without lifting a finger.
> 
> She judged him for all of that time in her mind without telling him what she was thinking. She should be ashamed of revealing how vapid she is instead of broadcasting.
> 
> Stupid article by a stupid person advancing stupid ideals.


As I'm a fan of saying, perspective is everything.

DivorcedMoms.com | Article

Same author. History re-writing? Maybe. If so, it's a hell of a rewrite.


----------



## angelpixie

Catherine602 said:


> Disgusting. Her husband lived for 12 years with a fraud. She never told him anything, never gave him a chance. Like having a stealth ego killer in your home.
> 
> I hope he realizes it was not his fault but just the luck of the draw. He got a woman who felt entitled to an instant romance hero without lifting a finger.
> 
> She judged him for all of that time in her mind without telling him what she was thinking. She should be ashamed of revealing how vapid she is instead of broadcasting.
> 
> Stupid article by a stupid person advancing stupid ideals.


Catherine -- did you read the same article I did? Where does it say that she felt entitled to an instant romance hero? Where does it say she never told him anything nor did she ever give him a chance? She said that if she had brought up trying new things, he would have assumed she was having an affair. She said he said the same things over and over, but didn't tell her what she needed to hear from him. 

I am not saying she is blameless for the end of her marriage. I am not saying she couldn't have done more and maybe he would have responded. _*But the point is, I don't know and neither do you, based on what she has written in the first article Deejo linked to.

*_Now that I see the 2nd article that he linked to this morning, all of what was said in the 1st article makes a little more sense, with the caveat that I am assuming that what she says in both articles is her real experience. Someone who does what she claims he did could very well have assumed infidelity had she suggested something new sexually, and if he had a tendency to become violent, I'm sure, like many women in abusive marriages, she did just try to give him what he wanted to 'keep the peace.' If this was the case, her sexual satisfaction probably just got shoved into the background, but it doesn't mean her needs ever went away.

It also puts a great deal of context behind the 1st article. If she was in this type of marriage, her self-esteem _was _probably shot to sh!t. It's hard to feel good about yourself in that kind of situation. And yes, maybe she's swinging the pendulum way over in the other direction right now, because maybe it's such a novel experience to be treated as attractive, and to have someone actually care if you are satisfied sexually. Many people who have been in abusive relationships have done this, if they haven't taken a break first to get into therapy and heal up. What she writes about feeling like a teenager again should also be no surprise to anyone who knows about the chemistry behind sexual attraction. They're the same chemicals that are at play during the affair fog, and infatuation of any kind. 

It just seems like some people in this thread are reading this article through lenses tinted with the pain and anger they have from their own situations, instead of just reading this as one person's life and opinions. Try to see multiple sides of a story, people.


----------



## 2ntnuf

> It also puts a great deal of context behind the 1st article. If she was in this type of marriage, her self-esteem was probably shot to sh!t. It's hard to feel good about yourself in that kind of situation.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> And yes, maybe she's swinging the pendulum way over in the other direction right now, because maybe it's such a novel experience to be treated as attractive, and to have someone actually care if you are satisfied sexually.
> 
> Many people who have been in abusive relationships have done this, if they haven't taken a break first to get into therapy and heal up.
> 
> I think she is swinging the pendulum way over, but it is a choice. If it is not, we likely should not take her article seriously, because she is speaking from a place of brokenness.
> 
> Something changed how she approached things from the time she got married to the point she likely asked for something so out of line with the character her husband knew, she was assured that he would react strangely. Abusively? Well, I didn't read that second article. I won't disagree with your assessment that he was abusive. I wasn't there.
> 
> What she writes about feeling like a teenager again should also be no surprise to anyone who knows about the chemistry behind sexual attraction. They're the same chemicals that are at play during the affair fog, and infatuation of any kind.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> It just seems like some people in this thread are reading this article through lenses tinted with the pain and anger they have from their own situations, instead of just reading this as one person's life and opinions. Try to see multiple sides of a story, people.


Well, I think she is doing what she believes is best for her. I don't think it is best for everyone. That, is, seeing it from multiple sides. It is not evil to disagree. As you have stated, the second article brought more to light. What else is missing? So, judging anyone, is kind of out of line, whether it be the author, or members commenting from their own life experiences. 

What is right for one, is not necessarily right for all, but a glimpse into what can happen when we choose a certain path.


----------



## angelpixie

2ntnuf said:


> Well, I think she is doing what she believes is best for her. I don't think it is best for everyone. That, is, seeing it from multiple sides. It is not evil to disagree. As you have stated, the second article brought more to light. What else is missing? So, judging anyone, is kind of out of line, whether it be the author, or members commenting from their own life experiences.
> 
> What is right for one, is not necessarily right for all, but a glimpse into what can happen when we choose a certain path.


I agree with your statement for the most part, 2nt. What upsets me is the bashing and shaming of this woman based on things that were never stated in her article -- either of them, for that matter. If someone disagrees with her life choices, that, too is a valid choice. If someone wants to be honest and say, "My life experience predisposes me to feel such and such way about this woman's choices, because (give reason)," that's fine. I have qualified my statements by saying that we only know what she has written, and have, at this point, no reason to believe she is lying. The first article is, as I've also already stated, an opinion piece. The second article is her relaying her personal story, and if one has any personal experience with, or done any research on abusive relationships, her experience reflects those of some, if not many, spouses/SOs in abusive relationships. That's no judgement on how she handled it. 

Again, to get back to what this whole thing was about -- the gist of Deejo's original post is: The end of your marriage (whether it was by your choice or not) does not necessarily mean the end of a fulfilling sex life. Period.


----------



## Deejo

And just to prove my point, I'm taking my SO away for the night, tonight. For sex.


----------



## Fenix

Catherine602 said:


> Disgusting. Her husband lived for 12 years with a fraud. She never told him anything, never gave him a chance. Like having a stealth ego killer in your home.
> 
> I hope he realizes it was not his fault but just the luck of the draw. He got a woman who felt entitled to an instant romance hero without lifting a finger.
> 
> She judged him for all of that time in her mind without telling him what she was thinking. She should be ashamed of revealing how vapid she is instead of broadcasting.
> 
> Stupid article by a stupid person advancing stupid ideals.


Seriously? *shaking head*


----------



## Catherine602

angelpixie said:


> Catherine -- did you read the same article I did? Where does it say that she felt entitled to an instant romance hero? Where does it say she never told him anything nor did she ever give him a chance? She said that if she had brought up trying new things, he would have assumed she was having an affair. She said he said the same things over and over, but didn't tell her what she needed to hear from him.
> 
> I am not saying she is blameless for the end of her marriage. I am not saying she couldn't have done more and maybe he would have responded. _*But the point is, I don't know and neither do you, based on what she has written in the first article Deejo linked to.
> 
> *_Now that I see the 2nd article that he linked to this morning, all of what was said in the 1st article makes a little more sense, with the caveat that I am assuming that what she says in both articles is her real experience. Someone who does what she claims he did could very well have assumed infidelity had she suggested something new sexually, and if he had a tendency to become violent, I'm sure, like many women in abusive marriages, she did just try to give him what he wanted to 'keep the peace.' If this was the case, her sexual satisfaction probably just got shoved into the background, but it doesn't mean her needs ever went away.
> 
> It also puts a great deal of context behind the 1st article. If she was in this type of marriage, her self-esteem _was _probably shot to sh!t. It's hard to feel good about yourself in that kind of situation. And yes, maybe she's swinging the pendulum way over in the other direction right now, because maybe it's such a novel experience to be treated as attractive, and to have someone actually care if you are satisfied sexually. Many people who have been in abusive relationships have done this, if they haven't taken a break first to get into therapy and heal up. What she writes about feeling like a teenager again should also be no surprise to anyone who knows about the chemistry behind sexual attraction. They're the same chemicals that are at play during the affair fog, and infatuation of any kind.
> 
> It just seems like some people in this thread are reading this article through lenses tinted with the pain and anger they have from their own situations, instead of just reading this as one person's life and opinions. Try to see multiple sides of a story, people.


The second link was not available when I posted so I could not possibly have known what was in it. If I remember correctly from the first link, she said she thought he would take her fantasies and desires negatively not that he did. Was that not true? If so, I thought he should at lest have had a chance to respond by being told. If his response was negative and she felt it was grounds for D then she did what was best for them. 

I was putting myself in her husbands place, I guess. If left to me, my sex life would have been boring. In fact, I did react negatively to my husbands attempts to loosen me up. However we worked it out. I'm glad he did not stop at the assumption stage and gave me a chance.

I also took issue with the tone of the piece. In my opinion, it was too breezy and lacking in reflection. There are so many people who have had to deal with the pain of D in similar circumstances. Their spouse never told them what was wrong in a way they could hear. Suddenly the person is done and ready to walk. 

The reaction of the spouse left behind is so poignant. They work hard but fruitlessly to salvage the marriage. Before that point, the WA spouse should have been forthright and warned their suppose that they were close to walking if things did not improve. But compassion and empathy would have been needed to be honest.


----------



## 2ntnuf

angelpixie said:


> I agree with your statement for the most part, 2nt. What upsets me is the bashing and shaming of this woman based on things that were never stated in her article -- either of them, for that matter. If someone disagrees with her life choices, that, too is a valid choice. If someone wants to be honest and say, "My life experience predisposes me to feel such and such way about this woman's choices, because (give reason)," that's fine. I have qualified my statements by saying that we only know what she has written, and have, at this point, no reason to believe she is lying. The first article is, as I've also already stated, an opinion piece. The second article is her relaying her personal story, and if one has any personal experience with, or done any research on abusive relationships, her experience reflects those of some, if not many, spouses/SOs in abusive relationships. That's no judgement on how she handled it.
> 
> Again, to get back to what this whole thing was about -- the gist of Deejo's original post is: The end of your marriage (whether it was by your choice or not) does not necessarily mean the end of a fulfilling sex life. Period.


Thank you, Angel, but I do have to disagree with that statement. If one is a person who has to reinvent themselves into something new and different, like Deejo explained he did, the end of his marriage did kill his fulfilling sex life. It wasn't until HE changed himself, fundamentally, that he found some satisfaction, and maybe for him a fulfilling sex life. 

That's not disrespecting him, as much as stating, if one is not that type of person, that has the experience and know how to have fulfilling sexual relationships with multiple partners over a lifetime, the sex life which was fulfilling, one with a single partner over an extended period of time, which generally includes the rest of one's life, is gone. It's done. 

We each will have to reinvent the wheel, so to speak, in our own lives, to adapt to the reality we each are faced with, and work within our personal limitations to find something as close to that fulfilling, single partner relationship sex, which is deeply satisfying on much more than just a physical level, to many of us. 

It's not to say it can't be done, as was stated, but for some of us, that kind of lifestyle and sex, will never be as deeply satisfying as sex with one partner, whom we dearly love. That kind of love takes a long time to build, with many obstacles in the way and life stacked against it's success. 

Thank you for explaining. I do appreciate your wisdom.


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## 2ntnuf

Instead of threads touting and bragging up the single sex life, wouldn't it be more productive to have a thread that explains the steps to change yourself into that person who might have the opportunity to find at least a somewhat fulfilling sex life?

We don't do that usually. We usually just like to boast about how far ahead we are. How good it is for us. Encouragement is good. Instruction and support are better.


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## Deejo

There is a reason I put together the sticky in the top of the men's forum. And I did so before I was a mod. 

That woman's article IS an instructional guide. But neither she nor I can make people see that; if they aren't ready to see it.

Making the change requires 'doing' and behaving in ways that will feel uncomfortable. And that is reason enough for most, to avoid doing them.

Nothing changes, if nothing changes.

If you don't know my back story, you can look in my profile for a thread called http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/3507-so-what-happened.html


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## 2ntnuf

Is it started by you, Deejo? What is the title of the thread? I'll go check it out. The sticky thread.


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## angelpixie

Catherine602 said:


> The second link was not available when I posted so I could not possibly have known what was in it. If I remember correctly from the first link, she said she thought he would take her fantasies and desires negatively not that he did. Was that not true? If so, I thought he should at lest have had a chance to respond by being told. If his response was negative and she felt it was grounds for D then she did what was best for them.


You are right -- she did say that (I'm speaking from memory here) that trying some new position would make him think she was cheating. Just judging by the first article alone, we don't know _why_ she didn't tell him. We don't know _why_ she assumed he'd think she was cheating. Not all spouses would do that. And she never stated in that article who filed for D, or what the grounds were. 

I understand now that you hadn't yet read the 2nd article when you posted. But if you have now, you see that he walked out on her. It had nothing to do with what she wrote about in the first article, regarding her feelings about sex, before or after divorce.



Catherine602 said:


> I was putting myself in her husbands place, I guess. If left to me, my sex life would have been boring. In fact, I did react negatively to my husbands attempts to loosen me up. However we worked it out. I'm glad he did not stop at the assumption stage and gave me a chance.
> 
> I also took issue with the tone of the piece. In my opinion, it was too breezy and lacking in reflection. There are so many people who have had to deal with the pain of D in similar circumstances. Their spouse never told them what was wrong in a way they could hear. Suddenly the person is done and ready to walk.
> 
> The reaction of the spouse left behind is so poignant. They work hard but fruitlessly to salvage the marriage. Before that point, the WA spouse should have been forthright and warned their suppose that they were close to walking if things did not improve. But compassion and empathy would have been needed to be honest.


I am a left-behind spouse, first of all, so I understand that reaction, lol. And as a left-behind spouse who wasn't given the option of really working on things, _and_ as someone in an emotionally abusive marriage, I can also empathize with her feelings. I, personally, see some red flags in her first article. I hope she's in therapy to deal with the end of her marriage, and to help her find out who she really is. If not, and it turns out that these choices now are not in line with her personal values, she runs the risk of looking in the mirror down the line and not feeling very good about herself.

But, tbh, much as I thought my XH and I had an excellent sex life, at times, I also know that due to his mental issues and abusiveness, our marriage could not have been saved. And it was causing me a great deal of emotional and psychological damage, including to my self-image, self-esteem, and consequently, my sexuality. I know this is common for spouses in abusive relationships, from having been in therapy groups, and reading countless books and journal articles on the subject. 



2ntnuf said:


> Thank you, Angel, but I do have to disagree with that statement. If one is a person who has to reinvent themselves into something new and different, like Deejo explained he did, the end of his marriage did kill his fulfilling sex life. It wasn't until HE changed himself, fundamentally, that he found some satisfaction, and maybe for him a fulfilling sex life.
> 
> That's not disrespecting him, as much as stating, if one is not that type of person, that has the experience and know how to have fulfilling sexual relationships with multiple partners over a lifetime, the sex life which was fulfilling, one with a single partner over an extended period of time, which generally includes the rest of one's life, is gone. It's done.
> 
> We each will have to reinvent the wheel, so to speak, in our own lives, to adapt to the reality we each are faced with, and work within our personal limitations to find something as close to that fulfilling, single partner relationship sex, which is deeply satisfying on much more than just a physical level, to many of us.
> 
> It's not to say it can't be done, as was stated, but for some of us, that kind of lifestyle and sex, will never be as deeply satisfying as sex with one partner, whom we dearly love. That kind of love takes a long time to build, with many obstacles in the way and life stacked against it's success.
> 
> Thank you for explaining. I do appreciate your wisdom.


I totally agree, 2nt. Sadly, as I said, the choice to have that one lifetime partner, with whom we (might) have had a fulfilling sexual life, was taken away from most of us here. The thing is, nobody is saying that you have to reinvent yourself into someone different. You don't have to go from someone who only wants sex within a marriage to someone who has ONSs every weekend. Not at all. 

That's what this period of post-divorce discovery is all about. To really find out who you are, not who you are expected to be, for whatever reason. 

And, this isn't pointed at you or anyone in particular, but I wonder if there is a tendency to become nostalgic about our married sex lives when we've been in a dry spell for a while. If we are really honest, before our splits, I wonder how many of us were _really_ having wonderful, loving, fulfilling married sex. Maybe part of what we miss is the safety and security of knowing our search for a partner was over, more than the sexual relationship.


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## 2ntnuf

angelpixie said:


> I totally agree, 2nt. Sadly, as I said, the choice to have that one lifetime partner, with whom we (might) have had a fulfilling sexual life, was taken away from most of us here. The thing is, nobody is saying that you have to reinvent yourself into someone different. You don't have to go from someone who only wants sex within a marriage to someone who has ONSs every weekend. Not at all.
> 
> That's what this period of post-divorce discovery is all about. To really find out who you are, not who you are expected to be, for whatever reason.
> 
> Been there before. I guess we don't change as much as we think? I have always been one who does not find casual sex to be that great.
> 
> And, this isn't pointed at you or anyone in particular, but I wonder if there is a tendency to become nostalgic about our married sex lives when we've been in a dry spell for a while. If we are really honest, before our splits, I wonder how many of us were _really_ having wonderful, loving, fulfilling married sex. Maybe part of what we miss is the safety and security of knowing our search for a partner was over, more than the sexual relationship.


Oh yes, it's true. I know I idealize that time. However, it would be extremely telling, if our spouses married us thinking that the sex wasn't adequate to satisfy them. Sure the sex lives go south. It's part and parcel to a failing marriage. It's more an indicator than the problem. 

Before other things got in the way, I know I was satisfied. If she wasn't, what the hell did she get married for? Why did she ask, ME, if I was going to make her a respectable woman? She is a pretty smart cookie. I doubt she meant that I was somehow going to make her respectable. I'm fairly certain when I asked what she meant, and she told me she was wondering if we would ever get serious and get married, she was actually thinking about getting married. I doubt she had any thoughts that I had some great store of bars of gold and silver. We were similar in our thinking, or the thoughts of marriage would never have occurred. 

If you want to say it was the infatuation love caused by sex, you defeat the original argument. 

And I know this was a general statement not meant for me. I think my experience in this part, is reasonalby typical. I don't think the sex was bad for anyone, before they got married, or there is some aberration that is not accounted for in the original premise. 

I'll look for that sticky. Hopefully, I'll be a changed man after reading it, but I'm skeptical.


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## angelpixie

I don't think my meaning came across the way I was intending, 2nt. I'm not saying that sex was _never_ good between us and our exes, before or after marriage, not at all. Nor was I saying that the collective 'we' were infatuated by sex. In my personal case, Chinless and I were officially engaged, ring and all, before we had full-fledged intercourse. That's what I 'believed' in at the time. I thought that would somehow help along the stability of our marriage. My thoughts have changed in that regard, as well as my thoughts on many things. 

A marriage/relationship is much more than sex. It's only one facet. I, too have never had 'casual' sex. In my learning about myself, I don't think that meshes with who I am. I need an emotional connection; I know that about myself because I spent a lot of time thinking about who I am and what sex means to me. But I have changed in other ways, such as not thinking it needs to be only within marriage. Everyone just needs to find what is right for him or her. As long as nobody is hurt in the process, and we think things through.


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## bandit.45

It's good to see you posting Angel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf

angelpixie said:


> I don't think my meaning came across the way I was intending, 2nt. I'm not saying that sex was _never_ good between us and our exes, before or after marriage, not at all. Nor was I saying that the collective 'we' were infatuated by sex. In my personal case, Chinless and I were officially engaged, ring and all, before we had full-fledged intercourse. That's what I 'believed' in at the time. I thought that would somehow help along the stability of our marriage. My thoughts have changed in that regard, as well as my thoughts on many things.
> 
> A marriage/relationship is much more than sex. It's only one facet. I, too have never had 'casual' sex. In my learning about myself, I don't think that meshes with who I am. I need an emotional connection; I know that about myself because I spent a lot of time thinking about who I am and what sex means to me. But I have changed in other ways, such as not thinking it needs to be only within marriage. Everyone just needs to find what is right for him or her. As long as nobody is hurt in the process, and we think things through.


I did have one partner, who was interested in sex and sex only. It was a maintenance type relationship where she came over once every four to six weeks, just for sex. This is subjective and I'll stop there. I apologize for ass-uming.  

I agree with what you state. Thank you, and I'll second bandit's comment and up it to, it's great to read your posts again.


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## Deejo

Put the link to my 'story' in the post above 2nt. Even wrapped the whole thread up.


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## 2ntnuf

Deejo said:


> Put the link to my 'story' in the post above 2nt. Even wrapped the whole thread up.


Thanks.

I'm there, now, sort of. I made a post in one already. I'm in MEM's on temps. I've read those two before, but was not able to read with objectivity, or as much understanding. 

I don't know how much MEM's temp thread will help me right now, but it may help with other types of relationships, also. I'm open to trying, at least.


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## Catherine602

Wow, that puts another light on things. I didn't read it yet but I will and comment Pixie. I'll just comment on the first one separately. 

I remember your situation. That is why I reacted the way I did to the first post. Pretending to be in the relationship while harboring dissatisfaction and plans to leave is deceptive and cruel. 

If a person can't be honest in one relationship, they won't be honest in the next. They will hide what they really feel and have a false intimacy that eventually fails.


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## Catherine602

Fenix said:


> Seriously? *shaking head*


Yes seriously. :scratchhead:


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## Fenix

Catherine602 said:


> Yes seriously. :scratchhead:


I think Anglepixie has already addressed my issues with you post in a more tactful manner than I ever could.


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## wtf2012

Catherine602 said:


> Wow, that puts another light on things. I didn't read it yet but I will and comment Pixie. I'll just comment on the first one separately.
> 
> I remember your situation. That is why I reacted the way I did to the first post. Pretending to be in the relationship while harboring dissatisfaction and plans to leave is deceptive and cruel.
> 
> If a person can't be honest in one relationship, they won't be honest in the next. They will hide what they really feel and have a false intimacy that eventually fails.


This is so true. Especially for people who cant be honest with themselves. I am terrified with falling in love again with someone who isnt honest with theirself.


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## 2ntnuf

wtf2012 said:


> This is so true. Especially for people who cant be honest with themselves. I am terrified with falling in love again with someone who isnt honest with theirself.


What came up for me when I read this, was, "I can know who I am and look for someone who meets those boundaries. I can read and learn as much as possible about relationships, and then, I have to just learn to control how much I let myself be codependent." Now, I'm not sayiing I am or necessarily was. I didn't do some things too well, but on the other hand, my enabling was to stay in the relationship even though I had enough boundaries crossed to feel badly about myself and the relationship(marriage). I guess I wanted to be married, so badly, even when my boundaries, which I stated prior to ever getting married(didn't know they were called boundaries), were crossed, I let my self-esteem take a hit, instead of just filing for divorce or getting into counseling, or something, anything other than looking the other way. I did put my foot down, so to speak, but I didn't back it. 

Anyone would just laugh that off. Shame on me.


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