# Deciding on marriage



## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Hi All,

Due to changes in my life, the time has come to either marry my long term partner or end things. The decision has to come soon. Our relationship has been challenging at times, but we've both put work into it and things are better than they were. The problem is that I remain unsure if marriage is what I want. I've been thinking about it a lot over the last few weeks, but I'm confused about my feelings and what is the right thing to do. We've let this drag on for too long and it's become damaging to us. 

She feels that I should show my commitment and marry her _then_ we work out issues as they come up, as a team. Of course that makes a lot of sense and it's how a marriage should work. However, in addition, she appears unwilling to consider long term plans _unless_ we marry. I, however, think we've already committed a lot in our relationship and discussing our long term dreams should be a happy and easy thing. It shouldn't be something we need to get married to do. Neither should it be stressful. I feel that I want to marry someone who has the same long term goals as I do. I see marriage as a commitment to achieving those goals with that person. The problem is that I'm failing to get this point across. 

Today I opened up discussions by saying that I'd like to have children in 2 or 3 years and that an important long term goal of mine would be to spend 2 or 3 month a year in the country I grew up (we both come from different countries and work abroad). I asked her how she felt about that and if that's something she would want to do with me. She got rather upset: she thinks I'm being selfish, that I'm placing my desires first, and she wants to know what I will do for _her_. She also twisted my words and paints what I said in negative light: claiming that I'm saying that marriage and kids are standing in the way of my goals. I've explained that I was just starting off the conversation and that I _do_ want to hear what she wants too. I've told her now and in the past that I want to know what her dreams are and see how those merge with mine. She's very cagey on this topic. She says she can't say anything about this because she doesn't know how she'll feel in the future and she may change her mind. To me this sounds like BS (I didn't say that to her, though). She also says she doesn't see the point of having this discussion if we're not going to get married. 

So I'm not happy and I'm stuck. I don't even know what feedback I'm expecting on here. 

Thanks.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

From what you wrote, my opinion is that you are not a great match and should not get married. There is too much unspoken and it seems there is manipulation on her part. Something is clearly not right, and marriage will make it worse. Your uncertainty is a clear sign that going forward would be a mistake.


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## MysticSoul (Mar 3, 2014)

If you're unhappy and feel stuck, how do you think marriage is going to solve the problems? It'll only make you even more stuck b/c of the legalities of being married. 

Will she go to counseling with you?


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

trilobite said:


> She says she can't say anything about this because she doesn't know how she'll feel in the future and she may change her mind.


Pay close attention to this. She wants you to make a lifelong commitment to her in the form of marriage, but will not commit to you on some simple life goals? What does that tell you?

Sounds to me that she has a burning need to get married. Period. Marriage is no test of commitment in my eyes. the commitment is much more meaningful when two people stay together without the threat of financial punishment enforced by the government. 

You are much wiser than many men to try to discuss life goals and philosophies prior to marriage. Stick with that. It's true you can't solve all your problems before making a decision, but her flat-out refusal to discuss such fundamental issues now tells me that you are in for a nightmare of a ride if you succumb to the ultimatum.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

MysticSoul said:


> If you're unhappy and feel stuck, how do you think marriage is going to solve the problems? It'll only make you even more stuck b/c of the legalities of being married.
> Will she go to counseling with you?


I agree: marriage will make big problems worse. She appears to think marriage will fix everything. I think I suggested counseling at one point. I don't recall what she said. She might have said "you go, I know what I want." Don't recall for sure. I could ask again but, TBH, it's not much of a marriage proposal if it has to come out of counseling. 

She points out the good behaviour of a friend's new husband and tells me how thoughtful and nice he is and asks why can't I be more like him. This implies that our not being married is purely my fault. I know that's how she sees it. She feels she's done the best she can and now it's down to me to make a decision.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

trilobite said:


> She points out the good behaviour of a friend's new husband and tells me how thoughtful and nice he is and asks why can't I be more like him.


So what is it about her that makes you even consider marriage? What exactly do you think will happen once you are married and you don't turn into Prince Charming? 

Sounds like you don't want to marry her. Why don't you just tell her the truth?


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

zookeeper said:


> Sounds to me that she has a burning need to get married. Period. Marriage is no test of commitment in my eyes. the commitment is much more meaningful when two people stay together without the threat of financial punishment enforced by the government.


I agree very much with what you mean about commitment but it's hard to keep sight of this. I told her a while ago that getting married would be something I'd do for her and not for me. Didn't say I wouldn't do it, just that it's not an important thing to me. Anyone can do it. She got really upset about that, which confused me. 

It's true she's under family pressure to get married. All her cousins but one or two are married.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

trilobite said:


> I agree very much with what you mean about commitment but it's hard to keep sight of this. I told her a while ago that getting married would be something I'd do for her and not for me. Didn't say I wouldn't do it, just that it's not an important thing to me. Anyone can do it. She got really upset about that, which confused me.
> 
> It's true she's under family pressure to get married. All her cousins but one or two are married.


So far you haven't given a single reason for YOU to get married. Are there any?

If not, it would be stupid for you and unfair to her to give in and marry her. Your whole story has "train wreck" written all over it. When her family pressures her to do other things, what will you do then?


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I don't think either of you are "wrong" here. From her point of view, you are placing various conditions on your marriage, which makes her feel like you don't "really" love her or want to marry her, or that you only want to do it if it works for you. From your point of view, you want to make plans and set goals and have an understanding that the two of you are able to make those plans together and share those goals, which is a reasonable thing to want from marriage. It's possible that she's being overly naive/romantic about marriage. It's also possible that she is picking up a sense from you that you are throwing up roadblocks, and that she feels a deeper ambivalence underlying that, and she may be right about that.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

zookeeper said:


> So what is it about her that makes you even consider marriage? What exactly do you think will happen once you are married and you don't turn into Prince Charming?
> 
> Sounds like you don't want to marry her. Why don't you just tell her the truth?


Because a lot of what we have together works well. We've built a coherent life together and day to day I'm happy. She's devoted towards me and she gets along well with my disabled brother, which is a very important consideration for the future. We like traveling together and for the short period when were making plans for our immediate next step, it felt really good. We've opened to each other and placed a lot of trust in our relationship. 

If we don't get married then I throw all that away and have to start again. Things aren't perfect with her, but I know I can be a demanding person and so I don't think things will be perfect with anyone. That's why I'm really agonizing about throwing this away.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

John Lee said:


> I don't think either of you are "wrong" here. From her point of view, you are placing various conditions on your marriage, which makes her feel like you don't "really" love her or want to marry her, or that you only want to do it if it works for you. From your point of view, you want to make plans and set goals and have an understanding that the two of you are able to make those plans together and share those goals, which is a reasonable thing to want from marriage. It's possible that she's being overly naive/romantic about marriage. It's also possible that she is picking up a sense from you that you are throwing up roadblocks, and that she feels a deeper ambivalence underlying that, and she may be right about that.


All those things are right. There are roadblocks from me, but that's because I'm concerned about what I see ahead and don't want to end up in a difficult situation. She can sense that. But I don't understand why we can't at least try to work through those roadblocks.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

If you don't want to get married unless you can have those certain things, and she refuses to even discuss it, I wouldn't get married. She is right in the sense that marriage is about rolling with the punches and things tend to not go according to plan. At the same time, her lack of openness to your goals and dreams does not bode well.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

zookeeper said:


> When her family pressures her to do other things, what will you do then?



To be fair, the pressure is very mild. She just wants to fit in and do what everyone else is doing. Everyone else is getting married so she wants to get married. I think that's the biggest pressure.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

trilobite said:


> Because a lot of what we have together works well. We've built a coherent life together and day to day I'm happy. She's devoted towards me and she gets along well with my disabled brother, which is a very important consideration for the future. We like traveling together and for the short period when were making plans for our immediate next step, it felt really good. We've opened to each other and placed a lot of trust in our relationship.
> 
> If we don't get married then I throw all that away and have to start again. Things aren't perfect with her, but I know I can be a demanding person and so I don't think things will be perfect with anyone. That's why I'm really agonizing about throwing this away.


It sounds like a business transaction. Is there any real passion or love here, or is it just about checking off the boxes?

No matter how much time and energy you've invested, it is better to throw that away than marry for the wrong reasons - or marry the wrong person.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

trilobite said:


> I agree: marriage will make *big problems worse.* She appears to think marriage will fix everything. I think I suggested counseling at one point. I don't recall what she said. She might have said "you go, I know what I want." Don't recall for sure. I could ask again but, TBH, it's not much of a marriage proposal if it has to come out of counseling.
> 
> She points out the good behaviour of a friend's new husband and tells me how thoughtful and nice he is and asks why can't I be more like him. This implies that our not being married is purely my fault. I know that's how she sees it. She feels she's done the best she can and now it's down to me to make a decision.


Not true. Marriage will make little problems big ones and big problems monumental Marriage will not fix anything only make things worse. Did you ever consider pre marriage counseling? Least then you will see how close or far you are apart on all these issues.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

If you are unsure still, after all this time, do not do it.

Also, it sounds like she is giving you an ultimatum.

Just because you get married, it doesn't make all your problems go away. It just highlights them. With a legal contract in place.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> It sounds like a business transaction. Is there any real passion or love here, or is it just about checking off the boxes?


Yes, I really care about her. Yes, right now I'm ticking boxes: Darwin’s notes on marriage Should it be like this? I don't know.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

trilobite said:


> She says she can't say anything about this because she doesn't know how she'll feel in the future and she may change her mind. To me this sounds like BS (I didn't say that to her, though). She also says she doesn't see the point of having this discussion if we're not going to get married.


She doesn't know how she'll feel in the future.

Marrying her is way too much of a gamble.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

I think I've fecked this up.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Not true. Marriage will make little problems big ones and big problems monumental Marriage will not fix anything only make things worse.


I don't understand why it's like this, though. Why should little problems now become big?


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

zookeeper said:


> Pay close attention to this. She wants you to make a lifelong commitment to her in the form of marriage, but will not commit to you on some simple life goals? What does that tell you?
> 
> Sounds to me that she has a burning need to get married. Period. Marriage is no test of commitment in my eyes. the commitment is much more meaningful when two people stay together without the threat of financial punishment enforced by the government.
> 
> You are much wiser than many men to try to discuss life goals and philosophies prior to marriage. Stick with that. It's true you can't solve all your problems before making a decision, but her flat-out refusal to discuss such fundamental issues now tells me that you are in for a nightmare of a ride if you succumb to the ultimatum.



I disagree. I think the woman is being far more pragmatic and reasonable here. Long term goals and everything are good but I think she appears more realistic in appreciating they generally are not dogmatic absolutes. 

Spending 2 or 3 months a year in the homeland is great. Throw in a couple kids and all the attendant duties and obligations – maybe its tenable maybe it isn’t. You have a job as a primary school teacher it’d maybe work? But those poor guys and gals have to spend summers getting Master’s degrees and stuff too. Maybe you have your own business and maybe 2 or 3 months away from the trenches will work – although I don’t know a lot of business owners who have much free time.

All I’m saying is marriage, family and commitment is a team kind of thing and they make the future fluid.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

trilobite said:


> To be fair, the pressure is very mild. She just wants to fit in and do what everyone else is doing. Everyone else is getting married so she wants to get married. I think that's the biggest pressure.


Definitely among the worst reasons to get married.


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## honeysuckle (Feb 23, 2014)

Do you live together as a couple? Share bills? Go on holiday together? How long is "long term?"
If you do all these things what difference is marriage going to make? Change of name? You can change your name by deed poll.
Wearing a wedding band? You can buy one from any jewellers.
Signing a piece of paper? You could have a blessing.
Have you already made all the important commitments?
If so why marry????? 
Dysfunctional won't change just because you are married!!!! 
STAY CLEAR OF IT


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

SpinDaddy said:


> Spending 2 or 3 months a year in the homeland is great. Throw in a couple kids and all the attendant duties and obligations – maybe its tenable maybe it isn’t.


No, of course, I meant _after_ kids and likely after work (although my work is potentially flexible and/or international). However, building up the ability to make such a plan happen will take time leading up to that. It won't just magically happen. It would require two people who want the same thing to make it work. Last year I took her to see where I was from and she really loved it. So I thought this was something we could talk about and work with. She won't even discuss it, though. How is that pragmatic?




SpinDaddy said:


> All I’m saying is marriage, family and commitment is a team kind of thing and they make the future fluid.


Yes, I agree totally. Of course plans change. As a colleague once said to me: "The main thing is to have a plan. Then you can change it later." But if you can't discuss any sort of plan with someone (apart from a wedding date) then this isn't a realistic policy for the future.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

SpinDaddy said:


> I disagree. I think the woman is being far more pragmatic and reasonable here. Long term goals and everything are good but I think she appears more realistic in appreciating they generally are not dogmatic absolutes.
> 
> Spending 2 or 3 months a year in the homeland is great. Throw in a couple kids and all the attendant duties and obligations – maybe its tenable maybe it isn’t. You have a job as a primary school teacher it’d maybe work? But those poor guys and gals have to spend summers getting Master’s degrees and stuff too. Maybe you have your own business and maybe 2 or 3 months away from the trenches will work – although I don’t know a lot of business owners who have much free time.
> 
> All I’m saying is marriage, family and commitment is a team kind of thing and they make the future fluid.


There is nothing even remotely reasonable about a refusal to even discuss such issues prior to marriage. I didn't read that he was trying to get her to sign a contract on these issues, but the sensible and responsible thing to do is to discuss them before marriage.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

honeysuckle said:


> Do you live together as a couple? Share bills? Go on holiday together? How long is "long term?"
> If you do all these things what difference is marriage going to make? Change of name? You can change your name by deed poll.
> Wearing a wedding band? You can buy one from any jewellers.
> Signing a piece of paper? You could have a blessing.
> ...


Yes, we've lived together for 5 years. I'm taking a job abroad soon. For visa reasons the only way she can follow me is if she gets a job there too or if we get married. Hence now a decision must be made. She was excited to go but she's only prepared to go it if we get married first. She won't even look for a job until that happens. I absolutely can see her point: "why follow this guy if he won't legally commit to me?" But also I can't commit to someone who I feel isn't being open about what she wants from our life together and how she expects it to be. We come from different cultures and so being honest about this at the outset is something that's really important. I don't think that telling the other what are your _expectations_ on life is a big ask.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

trilobite said:


> Yes, we've lived together for 5 years. I'm taking a job abroad soon. For visa reasons the only way she can follow me is if she gets a job there too or if we get married. Hence now a decision must be made. She was excited to go but she's only prepared to go it if we get married first. She won't even look for a job until that happens. I absolutely can see her point: "why follow this guy if he won't legally commit to me?" But also I can't commit to someone who I feel isn't being open about what she wants from our life together and how she expects it to be. We come from different cultures and so being honest about this at the outset is something that's really important. I don't think that telling the other what are your _expectations on life is a big ask._


_

Why would you leave out such important details earlier? What's next?_


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

zookeeper said:


> Why would you leave out such important details earlier? What's next?


Um... That's it. That's what the first line in my original post was encapsulating. But the issues that I bring up here predate this job. We have had this discussion before and it's got nowhere. It's just that _this_ time a resolution is needed. So I'm focusing on the issues here, because they are the constant.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

How old are you T?


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Tron, I'm 35.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Old enough.

Any previous failed marriages?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"I've told her now and in the past that I want to know what her dreams are and see how those merge with mine. She's very cagey on this topic. She says she can't say anything about this because she doesn't know how she'll feel in the future and she may change her mind."

How are you going to be part of a team when you don't know where she wants to go, or how she wants to get there, or what she's willing to do to get there? The one thing you have been told is she wants a wedding ring and a man (presumably employed). Other than that, she has no plan or ambition. Drop this one. If you just have to get married, find an adult. She wants a commitment but even she doesn't know who or what she is? What would you be committing to


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Yeah, old enough. That's one reason I want this work. I feel at this age that I need to consolidate my career and build towards a family, rather than turning Berty Wooster, exciting though that option seems. She's 5 years younger. Neither of us married before.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I am not surprised that she has lost a bit of patience with you. 

You don't have a clue where she stands on any of these issues? What have you two been talking about the past 5 years?

I essentially got the "$hit or get off the pot" speech after 4 years. And we were in our mid 20's.

Just wondering what has you so spooked to get married because you haven't exactly just jumped into this.

Does she have some bad family history? Poor boundaries? Abuse? Sexless? Fight unfairly? Passive aggressive? 

How about you?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> "I've told her now and in the past that I want to know what her dreams are and see how those merge with mine. She's very cagey on this topic. She says she can't say anything about this because she doesn't know how she'll feel in the future and she may change her mind."
> 
> How are you going to be part of a team when you don't know where she wants to go, or how she wants to get there, or what she's willing to do to get there? The one thing you have been told is she wants a wedding ring and a man (presumably employed). Other than that, she has no plan or ambition. Drop this one. If you just have to get married, find an adult. She wants a commitment but even she doesn't know who or what she is? What would you be committing to


Unbelievable...like many W, she may be wanting the OP to lead her. I don't find her answers so outrageous.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

It just sounds like you are not that excited about her in general, and she probably senses this. I guess she is fed up at this point and doesn't want to discuss any future plans without your proposing to her.

I don't think you should marry her. If you did, it seems like you would be doing it for the wrong reasons, ie. because she was there, because you're moving and need to get married so she can follow, because you feel obliged after being together for 5 years, etc..

Recipe for disaster.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Gonna point you to another similar thread T. See how it resonates.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...riend-wants-proposal-weekend-please-help.html


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

This one is kinda important too. How are things between the sheets?


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Tron said:


> You don't have a clue where she stands on any of these issues? What have you two been talking about the past 5 years?
> 
> Just wondering what has you so spooked to get married because you haven't exactly just jumped into this.
> 
> ...


We both work quite hard and have demanding jobs of the sort that you take home with you: time slipped by. That was a mistake and we both screwed up there. Me dragging my feet over marriage has been hard on her but she didn't walk, instead she chose to stay and fight it out. 


She has a tendency to fight unfairly, as you put it, and that definitely spooks me. Vindictive emotional outbursts, often over petty things. These aren't a new thing but we've tried to work through them and stuff is largely better now. She has issues communicating her feelings so she bottles them and then explodes spontaneously. She is unable to forgive my past transgressions and stores them up for ammunition in future arguments. For her, arguments are about winning and losing not about resolution. Those things spook me. I've been hoping we could fix this stuff, and we have to a degree, and that's why I've been holding on. 

I'm also spooked by the legal commitment of marriage, particularly because we haven't had long discussions on what our long term goals are. This matters because we both have careers and we come from different countries. Those are a lot of powerful forces pulling in different directions and so it's important for me to KNOW they can pull the same way. At the moment I don't. In the past she has given answers on "where do you want to live" that are either inconsistent, flippant, naive, or impractical. I've never heard her give a thoughtful answer.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Tron said:


> This one is kinda important too. How are things between the sheets?


That's fine. Could be more of it, but it's as much as we both want. I've asked her point blank if she's happy and she says she is.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

trilobite said:


> Those things spook me.


They should. Very unhealthy way to resolve conflict. It never does resolve and breeds resentment. 

First 10 years of my marriage was very much like this. I was miserable. So was she. 

How long have things been "better"? 

How have things changed?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I think your comment about wanting to live 2 or 3 months in your homeland is on the unreasonable side. Also, when you mention this would be 'after kids' which means in like 25 years. When you will be 60 years old. It is good to talk about the future, but it is unreasonable to try to make plans for 25 years down the road.

Try to communicate with her about future goals that are more reasonable. Having kids in 2 or 3 years is a reasonable discussion and one that needs to be had, before marriage. Talk about how finances will be handled, religion for the kids, etc. 

Pretty much anything outside of 10 years or so should be just hopes, not plans.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

trilobite said:


> I don't understand why it's like this, though. Why should little problems now become big?


Because as a marriage goes on things that once seemed cute now become annoying. Things build over time and not always for the better. 

Everyone brings baggage into a relationship ....Everyone. Finding someone who's baggage you can live with and tolerate is huge. Having these issues before marriage not a good sign

Besides....is she interested in you or someone to marry? My last GF swore she loved me and wanted to marry. It felt like that's all she wanted. So when she figured she couldn't manipulate me into it she left me. 5 months later married another guy. Any of that sound familiar?


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

SadSamIAm said:


> I think your comment about wanting to live 2 or 3 months in your homeland is on the unreasonable side. Also, when you mention this would be 'after kids' which means in like 25 years. When you will be 60 years old. It is good to talk about the future, but it is unreasonable to try to make plans for 25 years down the road.


You're right, planning for stuff in 30 years isn't relevant, but that's not really the way it is in this case. There is a little property abroad and this stuff doesn't take care of itself. It'll be an ongoing commitment in a very bureaucratic state and my involvement in it has already started. She knows that. I need someone who wants it to work and will be supportive. This isn't about money, if it was I'd sell the property, it's about me not losing touch with something that matters deeply to me on a personal level. If I'm with someone who sees these wishes as a compromise then I'll end up miserable. However, despite trying, I've not got a clear idea where she stands. She knows it's important to me, but hasn't ever come forward on her own to say "this matters to you: I'll help."


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I don't know what your money situation is like. 

But if my wife was paying for a property somewhere that we wouldn't be able to enjoy for many years, I might not be supportive. I would need to know that she believes that the here and now is what is important. Our kids need a home. We need money for their upbringing. If there was more than enough money for our life and the property, then I might be supportive. 

Things change. When I left the area where I grew up, I thought I would be going back. But I married someone from another place. And we have kids and they will soon be grown. I see now that I will want to stay close to where my kids are and there is very little for me back where I grew up.

Each to their own though. If that is very important to you, then you need to find someone that shares the same passion. It is good you are wanting to discuss it before getting married.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Sam, I agree, what you say is true and needs careful consideration. It's not a discussion she appears to want to have before she knows if we're getting married. I get the impression she would consider such a discussion premature; possibly even a waste of time.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Because as a marriage goes on things that once seemed cute now become annoying. Things build over time and not always for the better.


But that's not marriage _per se_, it's just time spent with the same person. I've lived with her, I know what pisses me off and she knows what pisses her off. We accept each other despite our failings and I value that. That's why I'm not just tossing this out and leaving the country without her.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

trilobite said:


> But that's not marriage _per se_, it's just time spent with the same person. I've lived with her, I know what pisses me off and she knows what pisses her off. We accept each other despite our failings and I value that. That's why I'm not just tossing this out and leaving the country without her.


Well look I'm not going to try and convince you. I offered the advice I can. Living with someone isn't really that much different than marriage. People can get sick of one another with or without the paper. But when it comes to the breakup that's when the difference is profound. Either way good luck to you


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Well look I'm not going to try and convince you. I offered the advice I can. Living with someone isn't really that much different than marriage. People can get sick of one another with or without the paper. But when it comes to the breakup that's when the difference is profound. Either way good luck to you


Yes, I'm on the same page with you there. Thanks for replying.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Well look I'm not going to try and convince you. I offered the advice I can. Living with someone isn't really that much different than marriage. People can get sick of one another with or without the paper. But when it comes to the breakup that's when the difference is profound. Either way good luck to you


I couldn't agree more.

Marriage is over rated. It's not really any greater commitment, not with all the broken vows and high divorce rates nowadays. It's an archaic, outdated, meaningless, useless concept. 

All it does is make it harder to get out of a bad relationship and makes divorce attorneys richer. 

There is NOTHING to gain by getting married.

Nothing.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

trilobite said:


> I don't understand why it's like this, though. Why should little problems now become big?


It's about the pressure of being married. 

It's sort of like you walk into a room. Maybe for a party, or a casual meeting. Or maybe you just rented a furnished apartment and you're about to spend your first night. Just trying for an analogy here, so stay with me.

Being inside this place makes you a bit uncomfortable.. maybe it's the smell of the room, or the old carpeting, or maybe the style of the furniture. You decide, ok, I'll hang out a bit and see if I can get settled in. And perhaps, after a while, you DO start to feel more comfortable even though you never really feel at home. 

Marriage is like someone suddenly locking the door from the outside and putting bars on all the windows. All of a sudden it's a lot more than a little bit of discomfort.


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## Random_Girl (Nov 17, 2013)

She wants to get married, and you don't. You have both known this for awhile, yeah? Did each of you assume the other would change their mind? 

After five years together, I'm not surprised she is bringing it up. But it doesn't sound like you are ready to make this decision. I definitely don't think anyone should get married because of an ultimatum - you will most likely end up resentful if you are only doing it in order to not lose her. All these concerns/apprehensions you have will only be magnified once you're married. 

Be honest with her and let her know how you're feeling about the situation. She can then decide whether or not she's willing to give you more time, and accept the possibility that you may never want to marry (but hey - at least you're considering it! That's something!) 

If it had been my husband deciding whether or not to marry me and he had written your post, I would have wanted him to say no. I wouldn't want anyone to marry me unless that was what they wanted 100%


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

^This.

Pretty much says it all. It's the only post you really need to read on this thread.

Besides mine of course


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## Jimena (May 28, 2012)

After reading your posts, I'm left wondering how you and your gf plan for the future, visualize, dream, etc. You said that neither of you has talked about it much... Do either one of you have difficulty with long-term planning? I have noticed that sometimes that ingrained thought-patterns can affect relationships unexpectedly. If either one or both of you is a "details-oriented" person instead of a "big picture" person, this could be impeding your communication and co-planning.

Also, remember that YOU created the pressure to get married by taking this job with said restrictions. Besides, any normal 30 yr old woman whose been in a relationship for 5 years would be acting strange if they weren't "feeling pressured" or otherwise seriously considering marriage. Perhaps she's feeling that if you haven't decided by now, you never will.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Wolf1974 said:


> Well look I'm not going to try and convince you. I offered the advice I can. Living with someone isn't really that much different than marriage. People can get sick of one another with or without the paper. * But when it comes to the breakup that's when the difference is profound.*


:iagree:


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Thank you all for taking the time to write your comments. You pretty much all seem to think I should walk away. I vacillate on an hourly basis yet I really should make a decision in the next few days. It's a tough and unhappy time. I'll miss her if this fails. 

We sat down last night and tried to discuss plans for the future. It was a positive discussion. It's just a pity that it took drama, which lead to this thread, to get there. We seem on the same page about most things and she was very reasonable, which is happy. Yet what makes me sad is that she doesn't really communicate in this way unless I push her. So it's clear that, for her, marriage itself is the important goal. For me it's irrelevant at best or suffocating at worst. 

I suppose what spooks me is that to get to the reasonable discussion first involves drama. Also, she's behaved in some rather dramatic ways in the past and I don't want to be trapped into that by marriage. She herself has acknowledged that she's prone to emotional outbursts and once, in a fit of honesty, admitted that she sees herself as always being this way. That's a compelling argument for walking. I have other issues too, but those are the main ones. 

If I walk away, which is possibly the right thing, I'll be single at 35 (which I'm guessing isn't easy) and will face a more uncertain future. I may not meet someone better and there aren't many more chances left. Possibly it's better to be brave and gamble than to settle for something that I know _now_ I'm unsure of. Either choice I make could fail, but I think looking back on this when I'm 50 I should regret more a failed marriage than a failed attempt at finding someone right.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T,
Here's the bigger issue: Your GF isn't being honest with you.

She heard your proposed plan and she hated it. 
- Working 8 months out of the year, 4 months in your home country implied less ambition than she's hoping for
- Waiting 3 years to have kids - if she's about your age that means at most having one child before she enters the age at which risk of birth defects/etc. rises a lot

The thing that's bad is she does NOT really want to negotiate in good faith by saying what HER plan is. Because she has a plan. And that's ok. What's NOT ok is that she doesn't want to openly discuss the differences between what you and she want. Instead she wants a blind lifetime commitment and AFTER that she will convey how it's all going to work. 

This ties back to they way she fights. The goal isn't resolution, but winning. Same deal here. The goal is not a mutually happy compromise, but getting her way. 






trilobite said:


> Thank you all for taking the time to write your comments. You pretty much all seem to think I should walk away. I vacillate on an hourly basis yet I really should make a decision in the next few days. It's a tough and unhappy time. I'll miss her if this fails.
> 
> We sat down last night and tried to discuss plans for the future. It was a positive discussion. It's just a pity that it took drama, which lead to this thread, to get there. We seem on the same page about most things and she was very reasonable, which is happy. Yet what makes me sad is that she doesn't really communicate in this way unless I push her. So it's clear that, for her, marriage itself is the important goal. For me it's irrelevant at best or suffocating at worst.
> 
> ...


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> T,
> Here's the bigger issue: Your GF isn't being honest with you.
> 
> She heard your proposed plan and she hated it.
> ...



No, she's being honest. She doesn't hate any of the plans we discussed, she just doesn't enjoy talking about plans unless she sees a ring. Those are her priorities and they're fair. They're just not my priorities. She's 30. She could have kids at 32 or 33 and it would be OK. She says her main desire is that we're happy together. If that is good, then she says she's flexible about other plans. This is all reasonable. It's just that sometimes it's an effort to get her to be reasonable. I can see she's frustrated and this is an emotional issue, so I'm cutting her slack on this one now.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

She seems reasonable, I think. After 5 years, you should know if you want to marry her. If the feeling is weak then you should not marry. 

You seem reasonable too. You don't have a strong desire to marry her. You have not expressed any strong feelings for her. 

If you found a woman that you had strong feelings and was a good match, I'll bet you would marry her in a year. Its too bad that you both waited 5 years to decide. 

The kindest thing to do is to let her know ASAP. Make it a surgical cut, don't say things to give her hope to make you feel better. Just be assured that she will recover faster if you are out of her life completely.

Also there is someone that is a better match for her. Someone will not hesitate to love and marry her. Let her go now to find that person. I think you will both be happy that you did not marry in a year from now.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes



Catherine602 said:


> She seems reasonable, I think. After 5 years, you should know if you want to marry her. If the feeling is weak then you should not marry.
> 
> You seem reasonable too. You don't have a strong desire to marry her. You have not expressed any strong feelings for her.
> 
> ...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Sorry didn't want my advice to seem as if you should usher her out of the house as soon as she can get her stuff together. 

It will take time to unravel 5 yrs of life together. It will be like a D. You have to plan things out. It might help to have her family and a sensible friend on call after you tell her. You will need support too. 

Carefully plan an orderly exit. When you tell her, take responsibility for your part. You were not deceptive though. From what you said, you let her know how you felt. 

However, it's on both of you for letting things go on so long. But neither of you knew that. 

Best of luck.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Catherine, you put things very clearly. 

*Sigh*


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

trilobite said:


> Catherine, you put things very clearly.
> 
> *Sigh*


I wish you the best during this difficult time Tri. Don't forget to get the support of trusted friend and family for yourself. 

And remember, you did the best you could under the circumstances. Whatever you do, know that it is for the best.


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## honeysuckle (Feb 23, 2014)

trilobite said:


> Yes, we've lived together for 5 years. I'm taking a job abroad soon. For visa reasons the only way she can follow me is if she gets a job there too or if we get married. Hence now a decision must be made. She was excited to go but she's only prepared to go it if we get married first. She won't even look for a job until that happens. I absolutely can see her point: "why follow this guy if he won't legally commit to me?" But also I can't commit to someone who I feel isn't being open about what she wants from our life together and how she expects it to be. We come from different cultures and so being honest about this at the outset is something that's really important. I don't think that telling the other what are your _expectations_ on life is a big ask.


 
I think she would be better getting job marriage doesn't sound right for you at the minute.
What if the move doesn't workout? The reason you married would be void. Would you be blamed for that?


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## ComicBookLady (Feb 28, 2012)

I would ask her feelings on WHY marriage is important to her. Some women like the security, some like the excitement, some like the spotlight, some need a marriage to feel "final" with a person (wanting to move to the next level). I think a smaller percentage want it for the right reasons. Depending on what her answers are, we could tell you if she wants marriage for the wrong reasons, which may help you understand what she's seeking in her life right now that makes her demand marriage. 

As for planning, she is not full of BS. Some people like to plan (it makes them feel secure) and some people are a bit more free spirited and recognize how changeable a person is from month to month and hate planning. Neither person is wrong. you are just different people.

I don't think a breakup is necessary unless you feel in your heart you do not love her. If that's the case, then I like Catherine's advice. 

Good luck to you!


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

ComicBookLady said:


> I don't think a breakup is necessary unless you feel in your heart you do not love her. If that's the case, then I like Catherine's advice.



I think I love her, but it's over now. I said it and it's over. I can't take it back.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Don't go back on what you said even if you have a strong urge to do so out of pity for her. I am not telling you to be cold but observe her and your feelings. 

Let it play out. You may observe things that you did not notice before or feelings that were buried by the stress of having to make a decision. Only a very strong deep need and love for her would make a marriage work not pity.

Think before you act or say anything further. It would be cruel to waffle. Either you are all in, really in or, you are all out.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> Don't go back on what you said even if you have a strong urge to do so out of pity for her. I am not telling you to be cold but observe her and your feelings.
> 
> Let it play out. You may observe things that you did not notice before or feelings that were buried by the stress of having to make a decision. Only a very strong deep need and love for her would make a marriage work not pity.
> 
> Think before you act or say anything further. It would be cruel to waffle. Either you are all in, really in or, you are all out.



I'm not saying this out of pity, but right now I feel like I've really effed up. I don't want to lose her. I can't imagine leaving her and starting a new life on my own. I'm really cut up over it and that's unusual for me. After my last relationship, which was also 5 years, I walked away and felt nothing. People who knew us both back then thought that I'd made a huge mistake and lost someone really special. I know my previous GF was a very unique and wonderful person, but when I realized I didn't feel a deep connection I ended it. Although I later felt shame, I didn't look back. I didn't cry when I ended that, but I am crying now and that's not usual for me. All of the reasons that I thought I had for ending this seem unimportant now. 

We talked a lot last night and in a very calm way. She wasn't begging me to stay or being "pathetic", she very rationally laid out her reasons why she thinks we work and have something worth saving. I can be head-strong and not good at compromising. I tend to do what I want. My GF has been flexible, accepted this, and worked with it over the years. As a result we've built a life together, a home, and shared adventures. I've taken that for granted, but it was an achievement because when we first started out things weren't smooth. 

I also have a bad habit of obsessing about what's wrong with my relationships and my partners, rather than seeing a more balanced picture. I've always done that and it's a destructive and selfish tendency. I think it reaches the point where I no longer know the difference between significant problems and solvable ones. I think I tend to see problems or failings in her as barriers rather than as a potential for building a bridge. This is a negative thing I do, but I think it makes me a flawed person not a bad one. Nonetheless, this behavior amplifies her tendency to be insecure and, unsurprisingly, can produce some pretty horrible behavior on her part. Then we have a vicious circle of insecurity-fueled drama feeding my over-cautious nature. The fact that she's stuck around this long is a testament to her commitment. This can't go on, though, or she'll be harmed. What disturbs me is that I think I'll be like this with anyone: I just worry too much. I used to jump out of planes: the frightening bit was the ride up and standing in the open door. Once you're out, the fear is gone. I think if I let go of everything now, accept our relationship for what it is, and we communicate more, then things will fall into place. I can't know that for sure, but I also feel that marriage is the only way I'd be able to do that. 

What's important for her is that we have a happy life together and have children. If she has that she's prepared to follow me almost anywhere. That's a happy thing, I can't see how I can throw that away.


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## honeysuckle (Feb 23, 2014)

trilobite said:


> Thank you all for taking the time to write your comments. You pretty much all seem to think I should walk away. I vacillate on an hourly basis yet I really should make a decision in the next few days. It's a tough and unhappy time. I'll miss her if this fails.
> 
> We sat down last night and tried to discuss plans for the future. It was a positive discussion. It's just a pity that it took drama, which lead to this thread, to get there. We seem on the same page about most things and she was very reasonable, which is happy. Yet what makes me sad is that she doesn't really communicate in this way unless I push her. So it's clear that, for her, marriage itself is the important goal. For me it's irrelevant at best or suffocating at worst.
> 
> ...


seems like too many negatives to make a successful marriage. IMO better off single & happy surely.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

It's good that you recognize how your own behavior and psychological patterns are impacting your relationships. 

Going from one 5 year relationship into another one where you can never make up your mind on commitment tells me that you just might have a wee commitment-phobe type of issue. You stay for years in relationships that you probably know aren't right, and you do a lot of things to self-sabotage to ensure your relationships aren't right as well.

You're correct that your patterns and way of thinking will follow you into any relationship you have unless you change your patterns in some way.

Have you ever gone to therapy? Maybe they can help you figure out why you have issues with commitment, or why you focus so much on the negatives and thus create a cycle of negativity and insecurity and more negativity with a partner.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

norajane said:


> Have you ever gone to therapy? Maybe they can help you figure out why you have issues with commitment, or why you focus so much on the negatives and thus create a cycle of negativity and insecurity and more negativity with a partner.


From a very young age I was told repeatedly by my Mom to be careful who I marry and how important it is to make the right choice. There were examples given to me, particularly my father's first marriage, of what happens when things goes wrong. As I grew up, I was allowed to make my own choices and wasn't interfered with at all, but I think the words from when I was small have stuck. In addition, I have a general tendency to take things too far or too seriously. I think those two things have interacted in a non-productive way and result in an over-cautiousness that isn't realistic. 

I know my parents are cautious about my GF because she's from a different culture to me, one they don't understand. My father's first wife was also from a very different culture to him and the parallel worries them. They think she will get fed up and leave me, which is what happened to my father. But I'm not my father and my situation isn't his. Over the last year, I've realized my GF would never behave in the way my father's first wife did. I think I need to get validation from my parents that they're not concerned. I've been waiting for them to say it spontaneously but I see now that they need help to do this because they see my relationship through my eyes. I think getting that sorted out is my therapy. 

A trusted friend who know me and my GF thinks we are "probably way beyond most life partners" with regards to all the stuff that matters.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

I don't think she twisted your words, I think she is telling you what she feels you are saying to her. If you are not sure, do not make the commitment.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

I've spoken to all of the people I need to speak to, and everything is sorted out now in a good way.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I wanted to read everything posted in this thread before I commented. 

You seem very hung up on age. You are 35. Not 95. It is not unusual for a woman 40 to have children nowadays. And a 35 year old man? You can get a woman pregnant until you drop dead, barring certain physical limitations.

The overall sense I got from this discussion is you are talking yourself into marrying this woman. Granted, you share things in common, know each other's weaknesses and strengths.

But there is something missing. It is hard to drag out of her what she really feels. There is lots of drama on her part.

I wish I could explain this in a way that won't come across as misconstrued, but you lack a real passion for this woman. There is something almost inexplicable that I get from folks on TAM who have this beyond-what-words-can-convey passion for their partner.

You don't have it. You have a list of pro's and con's. That is all well and good. But I feel there is far too much in your posts that is agonizing about starting over at the "ancient" age of 35.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

trilobite said:


> Thank you all for taking the time to write your comments. You pretty much all seem to think I should walk away. I vacillate on an hourly basis yet I really should make a decision in the next few days. It's a tough and unhappy time. *I'll miss her if this fails.*
> 
> We sat down last night and tried to discuss plans for the future. It was a positive discussion. It's just a pity that it took drama, which lead to this thread, to get there. We seem on the same page about most things and she was very reasonable, which is happy. Yet what makes me sad is that she doesn't really communicate in this way unless I push her. So it's clear that, for her,* marriage* itself is the important goal. *For me it's irrelevant at best or suffocating at worst. *
> 
> ...



You're not marriage material 
You and her don't have the same point of view on marriage
The only reason why you'd marry her is that you can't find someone better.

The core of all the above-mentioned is that you are not in love with her.

Do both of you a favor. Leave each other free.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Tri your heartfelt post was as insightful and as loving as I have ever read. 

You needed this crisis to see what your gf is made of. She sounds like a rare diamond, self-confident, loyal and devoted to you. 

Her behavior shows that she is emotionally sound. Her attachment to you is not out of fear but of love. You are an extremely lucky man. Work on your insecurity so you don't lose her.


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