# Pathological Lying, a short vague synopsis



## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

In 1978, just a week after our 5th wedding anniversary, my wife Mary allowed a friend to seduce her. I was upset, but we are wild children of the sixties, and I felt we could get past it fairly well. But when I questioned her about why she had allowed it I got odd answers. The more I asked, the stranger the answers got.

Truth was something I definitely thought we had agreed on. Perhaps I took it for granted, but it infuriated me to be lied to. I verified Mary lied to me. The more I dug, the more lies I uncovered. Mary had lied to me about many things, going all the way back to before we got married, about everything. I have never been able to establish what was true and what was not true.

I abused her emotionally trying to get the truth from her. I was cruel beyond any reason. I have described it as dancing with the devil. I physically abused her by pushing her aside when I left the house, sometimes very roughly. I gave up ever talking to her at all. 

In the spring of 1980 I was so angry I physically abused her with the intent to hurt her. 

As a result of that I realized Mary is a masochist. I also shocked myself, and realized I had been totally out of control, and changed myself so I never touched her in anger again.

When I realized Mary was a masochist, I realized there was certainly something going on with her I could not possibly understand, and her lies might not be under her control.

I resolved to change my outlook on life and now I believe truth is what I have experienced myself, not what I hear. That paradigm allows me to be at peace with Mary's inability to ever tell me anything.

At some point in all this I started trying to get Mary to go to counseling, with or without me. She always refused. Or rather, she said she would go if I told her to, but she would refuse to talk.

Mary, my wife, finally began therapy in 1984. She was shuttled around between about 7 different professionals before she was seen by a psychiatrist who hypnotized her.

Mary presented with panic attacks, and seemingly uncontrollable lying.

In 1985 I was invited to attend one of her sessions. She cried on the floor while her doctor shared her diagnoses with me.

I was told she had two issues.

She was diagnosed with masochistic personality disorder. 

Within a year masochism was reclassified so it was no longer considered a personality disorder if it did not cause distress to her or cause a relationship problem for her. We were evaluated as a couple, and it was decided her masochism did not present a problem within our relationship, so her diagnosis of masochistic personality disorder was dropped.

She was diagnosed as a pathological liar.

Pathological lying was considered incurable. 

Mary's doctor also told me he had been told to share with me the fact Mary had been the victim of childhood sexual assault beginning at the age of nine.

The psychiatrist felt there was definitely another significant trauma event in Mary's past which they had not been able to uncover.

Mary continued her therapy for 8 years. 

In 1992 she recovered repressed memories about being subjected to conversion therapy in her church. At the age of 11 they had preached to her how evil she was for thinking about sex, and she was condemned to hell, and they beat her into senselessness, night after night, for months. They shattered her mind, her memory, and she forgot she was bisexual. 

She forgot sex existed. She began having panic attacks. She became a pathological liar.

After she remembered that event she must have discussed it with there psychiatrist. She told me a little about it. She was horrified by what they had done to her, but she was freed of the panic attacks, she was freed of the repression of her bisexuality, and freed of the inability to think about sex.

Within weeks she managed to suppress the memories of the torture again. The psychiatrist said her shattered memory may have made that easy for her to do. 

Mary remains free of the panic attacks and the repressions that had been beaten into her.

Mary is still a pathological liar. And a masochist.

In the time up to 1992 Mary had seen several psychiatrists in hopes of getting a different diagnosis or a more hopeful prognosis. There is no hope of a cure for her pathological lying. Later in 1992 Mary decided she would not benefit from any more therapy. Her doctor agreed.

Several times people have mentioned they cannot understand how I can live with a pathological liar. We have coping mechanism in place to make me feel I never need to ask her any questions. Mary really does everything within her abilities, given her pathology, to prove she loves me, every day.

I love Mary, and she loves me. I take care of Mary's needs, and she takes care of mine. She always eagerly seeks to take better care of me. I do not believe anyone could love me more than Mary loves me.

A somewhat interesting bit of trivia is that at the time Mary decided to stop treatment her psychiatrists did not know of another person diagnosed as a pathological liar, and known to their relationship partner to be a pathological liar, who was happy in their relationship. Mary was singular in that respect.

From my read of the internet regarding this particular pathology, that may still be true.

This is the best description I have found of her pathology

From jaapl.org

"Eminent psychiatrists, such as Schneider,11 Bleuler,12 Jaspers,13 and Fish14 have all wondered if the pathological liar recognizes his or her story as false or believes it is real. Essential notions in much of the literature are the basis of the lying and the extent to which the pathological lying reflects impairment in reality testing. A brief review of past characterizations of pathological lying—published by Healy and Healy,8 who translated the early work that was originally published in German and summarized it in their landmark text published in 1926—shows a split between those who believe possible impairment in reality testing is an important consideration and those who believe pathological lying is a willful act.

Supporters of possible impaired reality testing observe that in the final evolution of the pathological lie, it cannot be differentiated from a delusion because, to the liar, it has the worth of a real experience.15 The lie ultimately wins power over the pathological liar, so that mastery of his or her own lies is lost. The new “I” supposedly overwhelms the normal “I” who now appears only at intervals, a condition that has been referred to as systematized delirium.16 Consciousness of the real situation was said to be clouded in the minds of the pathological liar, and the lies were described as impulsive and unplanned, “seizing” the liar suddenly.17 Pseudologues (pathological liars) were therefore not seen as liars in the true sense, despite the falsehood of their statements, because the verbalizations were not believed to be consciously engendered, nor the goal consciously recognized."


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

In my experience people who lie a lot don't feel any shame associated with being caught. Most people lie from time to time, but I think the normal repose to being caught in a bold face, is to feel some guilt. My ex-wife could lie straight to my face. She could tell me stuff that I could prove right then and there was a lie. For instance she could almost be falling over drunk, her speech slurred, the works, and say that she hadn't had a thing to drink. But if I ever called her on anything, it was almost like "ha ha, you caught me". She really didn't care one bit and felt no guilt whatsoever.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Did she ever get evaluated by psychiatrists? 

As you said, everyone lies sometimes. Mary’s shrinks always made sure to point that out to me.

Her lies are the result of childhood trauma, and she was scarred badly. 

Mary is highly intelligent, about two standard deviations above normal, but she can’t control this. That’s a key element in her diagnosis.

It requires a doctor who really knows what they are doing and what they are looking for to diagnose this type of thing.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

When we use the word liar, it is said and thought to be 'wrong', 'bad', 'evil', 'counter productive', 'not proper or helpful'. 
Basically, not very useful or common, referencing it, bouncing it against societal normality.

Yet, it exists. This lying behavior. And for a good reason. It allows a person to cope, to survive in this chaotic and rigid 'right thinking' world.
Oh, I agree, being 'mostly' truthful is good for [and helpful] for a functioning, and civil society.

But not for the perpetrator, the originator of these lies. They see lying as a way to protect themselves, shield themselves, or to elevate their standing in a judgemental world. 

Demanding their version of the 'truth' is a way for the average run-of-the-mill person to control other people . Control them by setting standards as to what comes out of your mouth. 

You WILL tell the truth, OR ELSE. 
The Truth as we see it, or else!

Or else you will be punished. You will be vilified. You will be badged with the Scarlet 'L'.

There are over six billion people running amok on this planet. Most speak reality in a similar 'standard' manner. 
Some people speak reality, as they see it. From a different perspective. And for different reasons, mostly unpopular ones.
These other people speak another reality. And, as their 'truth', their personal thoughts become words, it pisses off the majority.

So sad, so bad.

Because you are different you suck, you are a liar.

Humans have such over reaching Chutzpah. 



From The Typist's diary.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Was anything ever done to the animals who beat her or her parents for allowing it?


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Thank you 

One thing Mary’s doctor pointed out to me which had never dawned on me, across the five years I had been coming to be at peace with her lying. He told me I was the first person in Mary’s life who did not demand she lie.

Every other person she had ever known had punished her for telling the truth. From ratting out her sister in kindergarten to admitting her lesbian desires when the church elders asked. She was head strong and told the truth.

But when the church was done with her she couldn’t tell the truth again. No matter how hard she tries to tell the truth the wrong things come out of her mouth. 

Except if I just let her speak on her own time, when she feels right about it, she will tell me things about herself. I can’t ask or make suggestions. I can only listen. I have found she tells the truth then. It only happens maybe once a year or so and might be only a sentence or two.

She talks about mundane things. Especially with other people, but since there’s no substance there’s nothing true or false. She always reads me the weather report.

Before I discovered she lied the lies were a mix of intentional lies specifically tailored to please me and lies she couldn’t control and lies she wasn’t aware of.

After I began abusing her for lying I am sure the intentional lies faded away. But I drove her to lie more because she couldn’t control it, and she escaped into fantasies more to defend herself.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

It was 1967.

Homosexuality was considered evil, and illegal. It was possible they may have put her into a mental hospital for her tendencies. Few people cared how any child who showed homosexual tendencies was treated in those days. 

And my wife is a bastard, and had no idea who her father was. She’s a throw away child.

Conversion therapy is still done today, although they supposedly stopped beating the children in the eighties or so. How severely the child was beaten was up to the pastor. 

Her church was more like a cult in my opinion. They spawned Jim Jones, and the only difference between her church and the people’s temple was a few miles and publicity.

My wife has no idea which pastors may have been involved. It was 25 years before she remembered it. She repressed it again shortly after remembering. She refused to bring it up with her mother.

She is free of the repression it caused and living every day like a brand new day. She says there’s no time to look back.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think you mentioned once that you lack empathy and are also NPD?


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

No 

Other people like to say things about me, and make armchair diagnoses. It’s interesting because I’ve actually been evaluated by psychiatrists, who I happen to think are very good in their field, and they give me a clean bill of health.

I don’t try to defend myself from others, so the detritus often trails along behind me.

I did have anger management issues before deciding to change that. 

I’m actually pretty empathetic, with an acute ability to understand others pain. I just don’t allow that to sway my judgement very often, which throws people off. They seem to think if I can understand how much they need my dollar then I should give it to them. I don’t.

I am very self assured, with extremely high self esteem. The shrinks do not view that as a problem. 

That self esteem is why I score high on narcissism testing. But narcissistic personalities believe others should see them as better, while I don’t expect it. 

I am very successful, so I get many rewards and accolades, and I do appreciate them, but I don’t think I deserve them just for being me.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sorry I must have been thinking of someone else.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

interesting. sometimes i wonder if my wife is a pathological liar. she is damn near completely incapable of showing remorse for lying. at least, most of the time... its usually about money. 
she could spend 200 dollars a day with the debit card at gas stations and convenience stores for a week straight and will swear she hasn't been using the card at all. after all the deployments and other times i have left home, i dont even have my paycheck deposited in the joint account anymore. just making that one change alone saved us over 2 grand a month. 

if she is drinking, my wife will lie through her teeth, saying she hasn't had a drop, even if i use a breathalyzer on her, showing proof that she is wasted. no matter how much easier things could be for her if she just told the truth about such things, knowing that i will work with her, she chooses to lie instead, every single time. 

still, i know that she is capable of recognizing that she is lying. because when i bring the hammer of proof down on her(i rarely do this), she cries and admits to feeling like she is three inches tall, because she lied for no good reason whatsoever. she just cant seem to stop herself.

i guess its something ill have to bring up with her psychiatrist. i always figured it was a habit she learned from her mother, who also lies incessantly to her husband about all kinds of things, especially money. 

"yes i took care of that bill"
"i already took care of taxes"
"i packed my own lunch today, i didn't need to eat out"
"all i bought today was dog food"(which apparently cost about 200 bucks)
"i needed to pull out money for DD 8 field trip"

just some examples of typical daily stuff.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

We are all just pixels on the internet. It’s easy to make mistakes. I know I have.

And it is possible I may have been overly pompous at some time in a reactionary way. Certainly when I began posting here I wasn’t so concerned about how I spoke.

Some posters have changed my opinion of the value of this site, with their insights, so I have been trying to be less sarcastic.

Which is why I posted this piece about Mary.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

As'laDain said:


> interesting. sometimes i wonder if my wife is a pathological liar. she is damn near completely incapable of showing remorse for lying. at least, most of the time... its usually about money.
> she could spend 200 dollars a day with the debit card at gas stations and convenience stores for a week straight and will swear she hasn't been using the card at all. after all the deployments and other times i have left home, i dont even have my paycheck deposited in the joint account anymore. just making that one change alone saved us over 2 grand a month.
> 
> if she is drinking, my wife will lie through her teeth, saying she hasn't had a drop, even if i use a breathalyzer on her, showing proof that she is wasted. no matter how much easier things could be for her if she just told the truth about such things, knowing that i will work with her, she chooses to lie instead, every single time.
> ...




Could be. And the psychiatrist might need guidance to start looking for it.

Mary had to be hypnotized before it was verified.

It’s a complex stew. Some lies which are intentional, some just fall out no matter what the person wants to say, and sometimes the person is just clueless. 

I made Mary answer my questions in writing. I sealed the answers in envelopes and kept notes on the outside. Then after weeks I would ask about the same thing again. 

She would write out the answer. I would pull out the envelope and hand it to her. She would read the two papers side by side in her own handwriting and swear somehow it just couldn’t have happened. Total breakdown, grab the papers and run away. Burn them. 

After that happened several times I gave up asking, talking. She was my maid, baby sitter, and sex toy, but we did not talk for almost 6 months. 

I was terrible. Worse, emotionally, than what I have admitted, but Mary doesn’t want to go there.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

I believe my mother is a pathological liar. She steals as well which to me seems like a type of lying or creation of her own reality. She convinces herself the stealing is justified and the justifications are fueled by intense emotions that would be impossible to fake. 

I used to feel intense dislike for her but the older she gets the more apparent, to me, it seems that the lying can’t be helped. It’s part of her makeup, she’s not well and she’s not ever going to change. 

She’s very difficult to be around for any length of time because she doesn’t grasp the concept of using observation to draw conclusions or reach decisions. Her conclusions are all based on what she prefers or deems right and I believe she believes this is what everyone does.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I never do armchair analysis. One day in '85 I made some vague allusion to the possibility of some connection and Mary was triggered like a bomb. Mary made appointments for us with her shrink right away, separately. 

He spent my entire hour impressing on me my ignorance in his field.

Which for someone as smart, well read, conceited, and with such high self esteem I have was time well spent.

I recommend no one attempt to do any diagnosis on their own. Let real doctors do that. 

I recommend people get their loved ones in to see real doctors.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

One thing I thought I would note is in Mary’s case her second pathology, masochistic personality disorder, manifested itself most strongly as acts of service. 

For those not familiar with that disorder it has several facets. Gaining satisfaction through submission, acts of service, bondage, exhibitionism, being degraded, pain, are all facets of the personality. From what I was told the person is typically focused on one person.

In Mary’s case she was focused on me. She expressed her personality most strongly by submission and acts of service. I think that’s why I didn’t recognize her lies, distortions of truth, creations of fancy, for over six years. Everything she did and said was tailored to please me.

Sometimes I became suspicious and asked her to be more argumentative and independent, and she would comply just enough to allay my suspicions. She is, after all, very smart, even though she is mentally ill.

The only reason I finally discovered she lies is because she couldn’t quite figure out how she should answer after she allowed our friend to seduce her. I was pretty dispassionate when I asked about it. I did not give her anything to judge by. She was working on shifting sand. As soon as I recognized the first inconsistency in one of her answers I tore her carefully constructed world of lies apart.

I really didn’t care much about the affair. I would get my revenge for that, but it didn’t hurt us much. But lying was a very big deal to me.

As soon as I discovered she had lied to me I was ready to wreak havoc on both of us. If only I could change that.


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