# A Cautionary Tail



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I have been thinking about this post for several weeks now, trying to decide if it was worth the effort to make. I finally decided it was, if for no other reason than to provide food for thought.

First, I am no longer seeking advice to improve my situation. That train has long since left the station. Second, I accept responsibility for my situation and I blame no one other than myself. I understand that everyone here gave the best advice they could, did so in good faith, and I harbor no grudges.

What I want to put on the table for discussion, however, is the prevailing attitude that in a sexual mismatch situation, that the single best answer when all else fails is the ultimatum. I argued strenuously against that position during my time here. My position was that trying to gain love, respect and affection through threats and intimidation would be counterproductive. During that time I was accused of being a troll, among other things because of my position.

Last night, C2 and I attended our last marriage and sexual counseling session. It was agreed by all that we were wasting the counselor’s time and our money. But earlier during a counseling session, the counselor suggested that perhaps we should consider going our separate ways. 

The reaction to that by C2 was, as I expected, very harsh and violent, and it wrecked our marriage. We are still husband and wife but no longer friends or lovers. We are locked in a cycle where she only tolerates my presence and yet won’t let me go. 

So MY advice, to those who follow me, is this. Everyone here is trying to help you, but if something doesn’t feel right for you, DO NOT give up your position. The members here can not possible know your spouse as well as you do. 

My advice to those trying to help… LISTEN to what the people are saying. Do not assume, as in my case, that the person is making excuses or simply trying to cause trouble. I know C2 far better than anyone on this board and I knew instinctually that the threat of abandonment would not be received well. 

I took a lot of advice from this board, and this is my attempt to give a little bit back to the community.


Copper


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I have been thinking about this post for several weeks now, trying to decide if it was worth the effort to make. I finally decided it was, if for no other reason than to provide food for thought.
> 
> First, I am no longer seeking advice to improve my situation. That train has long since left the station. Second, I accept responsibility for my situation and I blame no one other than myself. I understand that everyone here gave the best advice they could, did so in good faith, and I harbor no grudges.
> 
> ...


So in your case, trying to gain her affection through love, respect has not worked thus far?
she does not want a divorce, but expects you to be ok with the way things are now?

What is left?


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## skynet (Jul 9, 2015)

No clue where you're getting that from. I've seen just as many people argue against ultimatums as those that favor them. I don't think ultimatums ever work, and that's especially true when it comes to trying to force a partner to have sex when they don't want to. I have seen this point of view shared by many on this board.

The next two quotes have to do with you saying that posters don't know your wife as well as you do:



CopperTop said:


> So MY advice, to those who follow me, is this. Everyone here is trying to help you, but if something doesn’t feel right for you, DO NOT give up your position. The members here can not possible know your spouse as well as you do.





CopperTop said:


> . I know C2 far better than anyone on this board and I knew instinctually that the threat of abandonment would not be received well.


Then you go and thank a poster because this poster who cannot possibly know your wife as well as you do apparently knows your wife better than you do.



CopperTop said:


> To ocotillo... your keen insight into how C2 thinks was a revelation and has allowed me to understand why she acts as she does. You, perhaps more than anyone, gave me the onsight I needed. Thank you.


Just say'en.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I have been thinking about this post for several weeks now, trying to decide if it was worth the effort to make. I finally decided it was, if for no other reason than to provide food for thought.
> 
> First, I am no longer seeking advice to improve my situation. That train has long since left the station. Second, I accept responsibility for my situation and I blame no one other than myself. I understand that everyone here gave the best advice they could, did so in good faith, and I harbor no grudges.
> 
> ...


I can't recall ever being so frustrated with someone who posted here, SMH


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

> We are locked in a cycle where she only tolerates my presence and yet won’t let me go.


She doesn't have to "let" you go - you just have to go on your own.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Kristin nailed it. Ct actually has no idea what advice works. He never followed any of it. He has just full of excuses why he couldn't.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

CT,

IMHO, ultimatums are a last resort. They are not to scare the other person into getting what you want. They are for impressing on them that you are dead serous about the magnitude of the problem. And yes you will leave if they do not work with you to solve the problem. It's let them know what the situation in your eyes.

I'm a bit confused here. It seems to me that nothing has worked. An ultimatum, or something close to one did not work. Being reasonable and trying to work it through did not work.

So where is this going? I think that this point you need to decide what you will do, and not base it on her anger or her not letting you go.

If you chose to stay, you need to find a way to be happy with it.

If you chose to go, you need to find a way to do it and be happy with it.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening CT
Honestly I think you are much better off without this marriage.

Of course no no on on the internet has any idea what is really going on in any of these discussions. We get little bits of information and give the best advice we can.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

kristin... I direct this comment to you. This is exactly the type of post that I was talking about. You are SO SURE you are right, that you never consider that there may be more going on than you know.

The reason I can't leave? Because I dread standing in court and defending myself against accusations of serial raping my wife for twenty years. I don't want to have to explain why I'm not a child molester. I don't want to have to try explain away her accusations of me having one affair after another. I don't want to spend god knows how much money to try to break out of a marriage when she is spending god know how much money to keep me locked in. The kids that used to carpool with my son no longer want to continue that relationship though it was beneficial for all involved. 

She has already ruined my relationship with my daughter. My daughter will no longer stay alone with me because she is "afraid of what I might do." My son is afraid I'm going to abandon him because "All I care about is myself."

ALL of this came about because I dared suggest we consider the counselor's ideas. None of this surprised me as she has accused me of all of this in the past. She is using it as a lever to keep the marriage whole. As she said, "When I married, I married for life. Nobody in my family has ever had a divorce and I'm not going to be the first."

This is the point of my post. Yes, thank you for helping me. Yes, thank you for giving advice. But beating a poster up because he doesn't follow your advice is not productive. There may be far more to it than you know.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> kristin... I direct this comment to you. This is exactly the type of post that I was talking about. You are SO SURE you are right, that you never consider that there may be more going on than you know.
> 
> *I'm not ignorant CT there is always MORE than anyone here can know. We are only hearing your side of the story and your excuses about why it can never change. Most people who post here realize that. The only thing I am SO SURE of is that you are a VOLUNTEER/VICTIM for the horrible sham of a marriage you describe.*
> 
> ...


*Seriously CT, if you think I was beating you up, I apologize. It seems to be something you are quite used to given the description of the behavior you not only tolerate but reward from your wife. I'm surprised you don't have a higher tolerance for abuse. Maybe that is something you can work on that will make life with her easier. That is as helpful as anyone can be I think.*


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Have you talk to an attorney? Explained the possibility of false accusations and child alienation? An experienced attorney might know how to handle these kind of situations.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

Your wife's emotional terrorism will stop - when she finds that it is contrary to her best interests. 

Right now you are choosing to allow her to treat you like the enemy - while continuing to reassure her of your commitment. 

This doesn't surprise me. She's good at conflict and very good at combat. You are not so good at conflict, and utterly unequipped for marital combat. 

So - yes - for you - this was a bad move. But for folks who are actually willing to assert their right to 'matter' in a marriage, it would not be. 

I say this with all sincerity, because I believe human nature is much more similar than dissimilar. One evening M2 said to me: I don't think I'm ever going to forgive you for saying 'X' to me. 

Turns out that a calm, firm and somewhat playful response from me turned the duration 'never' into 10 minutes. 

So sure - C2 is being hateful. And she'll keep that up until you tell her you won't tolerate it any longer whether you do that tomorrow, next week or ten years from now. 




CopperTop said:


> I have been thinking about this post for several weeks now, trying to decide if it was worth the effort to make. I finally decided it was, if for no other reason than to provide food for thought.
> 
> First, I am no longer seeking advice to improve my situation. That train has long since left the station. Second, I accept responsibility for my situation and I blame no one other than myself. I understand that everyone here gave the best advice they could, did so in good faith, and I harbor no grudges.
> 
> ...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

So one more question for kristin and Personal, for my curiosity, then I'm done. 

How much am I supposed to give up? Any remaining relationship with my kids? Lose my friends? Have it on the record that I was accused of molesting my daughter and that I continuously raped my wife? If she fights the divorce, and stated clearly and in front of the counselor that she would, she can drag this out for a long time as we fight each other, all the while paying lawyers from the same pool of money. In North Carolina is a slow, difficult, process to get a no-fault divorce. It is much more so to get through a contested divorce and an attorney told me that we should avoid that if at all possible. 

Ultimately I could get out of the marriage, I understand this. But I would be proving C2 right, that I would sacrifice everything, including my relationship with my kids, to do so. I have probably already lost my daughter. Should I give up my son as well?

I have (probably) lost my daughter and I have lost my wife. I can't lose my son too.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

ANYONE can get a divorce...no matter how resistent the spouse. You will need to divide assets, perhaps pay spousal support, but no one can force you to stay married to someone, except YOU.

You have given up all of your "power"', "energy", "self" in this life. Your excuses are just that, excuses. 

People here have tried to help you. It really doesn't matter if they know you or your wife. There really are some truths in life...you didn't want to process them.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Folks, you are wasting your breath....

CT has decided that all would be well in his world if he just had not listened to those folks on TAM. We are his new scapegoat of choice, even though he arrived here in what could only be described as a largely unfulfilling marriage relationship.

For a period of time, he would point the finger of blame for all his troubles at his wife. Now, it is our turn to shoulder the burden for him. 

I used the term "martyr syndrome" to describe CT's behavior in his original thread. I think it holds true through now. He relishes drawing attention to himself by describing a situation that was even worse than before.

I'm sorry that your situation has worsened. I fear it won't get much better if you try to soothe yourself by blaming others for an inescapable plight. I am confident that your luck will change someday. That will be the day after you look in the mirror, identify your own role in enabling this spiralling situation and begin taking the steps needed to take control of your own life and your own fate.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> So one more question for kristin and Personal, for my curiosity, then I'm done.
> 
> How much am I supposed to give up?
> 
> ...


*

So stay, we all know you are going to. You have had a thread shut down because it was going nowhere. You started another that went nowhere, and another...You titled your thread "A Cautionary Tail" Kind of a perfect error, you are chasing yours. *


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Ultimatums are a last resort and only work if you actually follow through.

Meaning, you're actually willing to walk away.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

For an intelligent man you really are acting pretty dumb.

There are ways to effectively shut down her blackmail attempts, you're not stupid you know about recording devices.
Hidden Audio Recorders, Spy Recording devices & Microphones

There are ways to effectively shut down her attempts to alienate you from your children.
Parental Alienation Syndrome
PAS Help - Parents Who Have Successfully Fought Parental Alienation Syndrome - by Jayne A. Major, Ph.D.

At least the frog in the pot didn't know he was in the pot and didn't know the burner was turned on. You know it and STILL remain out of fear.

My grandmother was right, we do live in the hell of our own making. You are a perfect example.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> kristin... I direct this comment to you. This is exactly the type of post that I was talking about. You are SO SURE you are right, that you never consider that there may be more going on than you know.
> 
> The reason I can't leave? Because I dread standing in court and defending myself against accusations of serial raping my wife for twenty years. I don't want to have to explain why I'm not a child molester. I don't want to have to try explain away her accusations of me having one affair after another. I don't want to spend god knows how much money to try to break out of a marriage when she is spending god know how much money to keep me locked in. The kids that used to carpool with my son no longer want to continue that relationship though it was beneficial for all involved.
> 
> ...


If you don't think your wife has already poisoned your kids against you, you're blind. She has already done this.

For years I was afraid of what my wife would tell my kids and she knew it. Then one day I said "F*** it. Tell them." It was liberating, especially because I knew she would never pull the trigger on it.

And as others said, ultimatums only work if you are ready to act on them. If you have drawn lines in the sand before and done nothing when they were crossed, you'll never be able to stand your ground.

(Just preaching to the converted I think.)


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## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> CT,
> 
> IMHO, ultimatums are a last resort. They are not to scare the other person into getting what you want. They are for impressing on them that you are dead serous about the magnitude of the problem. And yes you will leave if they do not work with you to solve the problem. It's let them know what the situation in your eyes.
> 
> ...


This.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

convert said:


> So in your case, trying to gain her affection through love, respect has not worked thus far?
> 
> she does not want a divorce, but expects you to be ok with the way things are now?
> 
> ...



Marital warfare or marital PsyOps...


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Marital warfare or marital PsyOps...




Warfare? No, that would imply that CT actually put up some sort of fight.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Your wife won't "let you go"???

Last I checked, CopperTop... You are a GROWN ADULT.

ADULTS make rational decisions. Not throw their hands up in the air. And they don't buckle at the mercy of abusive people.

To continue to wallow in your own misery (admittedly it's all on you, you own it, despite YEARS of stellar TAM advice), what are you looking for?

For us to now pat you on the back for owning your misery and refusing to change your sad plight?

Sorry but I won't indulge your pity party.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> Warfare? No, that would imply that CT actually put up some sort of fight.


oh snap!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You can also call her bluff. Allegations are just that. If it comes to mutually assured destruction so be it.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Copper Top
I haven't followed all of your posts.
Has she threatened to make a false rape and molestation report, or are you concerned that it is something that she might do?

If she has threatened this, then I believe that is felony blackmail. I don't know how to proceed, but you should contact an attorney or if you can't afford it, go to the police. Do not have any more conversations with her that are not recorded - you can let her know you are recording - for your own safety in response to her threats. Make every effort to avoid being alone with her without any recording. 

Refuse sex with her no matter what - easy for her to have sex, then hurt herself and claim you raped her.

She is not the first woman to try to blackmail her husband - its not like the police have never heard of this before. You can make a report before she says anything, get advice. Find out if it is legal for you to secretly record her making such a threat. Once you have that, the kids are yours. 

These threats are a declaration of war. She is now your enemy. Maybe you loved her once, but that is over. She wishes you harm and you need to take what action you can to protect yourself and her.

I don't see any reason you should lose your kids over this. 





CopperTop said:


> So one more question for kristin and Personal, for my curiosity, then I'm done.
> 
> How much am I supposed to give up? Any remaining relationship with my kids? Lose my friends? Have it on the record that I was accused of molesting my daughter and that I continuously raped my wife? If she fights the divorce, and stated clearly and in front of the counselor that she would, she can drag this out for a long time as we fight each other, all the while paying lawyers from the same pool of money. In North Carolina is a slow, difficult, process to get a no-fault divorce. It is much more so to get through a contested divorce and an attorney told me that we should avoid that if at all possible.
> 
> ...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

john117 said:


> You can also call her bluff. Allegations are just that. If it comes to mutually assured destruction so be it.



The best defense is a good offense.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

This is pathetic. CT will cow-tow to his hefty, abusive wife for another 20 years because he's "skeered" of the lies she MIGHT tell in court someday.

Very sad.

This could all be resolved with a VAR and a bulldog lawyer. But CT would rather buckle under the enormous weight of his wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> That train has long since left the station.


My thoughts exactly.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

soccermom2three said:


> Have you talk to an attorney? Explained the possibility of false accusations and child alienation? An experienced attorney might know how to handle these kind of situations.


Agreed. Get a good attorney and have him or her get a court hearing to order a custody evaluation to be done by a qualified psychologist if your wife will not agree to it. The evaluator will dig into the family dynamics and issue recommendations. Ask your evaluator for primary custody or, failing that, protections for you.

My ex tried that B.S. I had the immediate evaluation done to clear me then the custody evaluation. Spendy, but worth it. First, I have a court order that she cannot file any accusations against me without having it vetted by a therapist. Second and more generally, there is a report out there - forever - saying that my ex is a liar who drummed up these accusations out of dislike for me.

Now if you can document your wife's issues, you don't have much to worry about at all. Everything she says bad about you will be tainted.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DTO said:


> Agreed. Get a good attorney and have him or her get a court hearing to order a custody evaluation to be done by a qualified psychologist if your wife will not agree to it. The evaluator will dig into the family dynamics and issue recommendations. Ask your evaluator for primary custody or, failing that, protections for you.
> 
> My ex tried that B.S. I had the immediate evaluation done to clear me then the custody evaluation. Spendy, but worth it. First, I have a court order that she cannot file any accusations against me without having it vetted by a therapist. Second and more generally, there is a report out there - forever - saying that my ex is a liar who drummed up these accusations out of dislike for me.
> 
> Now if you can document your wife's issues, you don't have much to worry about at all. Everything she says bad about you will be tainted.


CT,

Please note that I am not dismissing the possibility of having someone tell such lies about you, or how it feels to have to go through that. I have totally BTDT.

But, being a man means you stand up for yourself regardless. You hold on to your nutz and fight back as hard as you can. You don't let yourself be held hostage and instead master your fear.

As far as how the kids view you, you'd probably be better off divorced in that realm too. Instead of her being in their ears constantly about how bad you are, you will have time alone with them to prove yourself as a father. They quickly will figure out what the truth is.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> She has already ruined my relationship with my daughter. My daughter will no longer stay alone with me because she is "afraid of what I might do." My son is afraid I'm going to abandon him because "All I care about is myself."


Either you're more dangerous than youre letting on or your kids are not the sharpest tools in the shed. Unless this slug has reason to warn your kids, she causing them to see the you, and the rest of the world, with deranged perception. If this is real and you give a rats azz about your kids growing up with an ability to correctly judge and perceive to live in the real world, git off your lard azz and do something about it. If you don't you're worse than she is. It may already be too late and your cowardliness has screwed the pooch.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
this is beyond slander. Its felony blackmail - the sort of thing she should do prison time for. 

Does she have any evidence whatsoever that you have been raping her? (again do not give he any - do not have sex under any conditions whatsoever)

Go to the police. She is too dangerous to leave with your children.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

CopperTop,

WTH???

Really? You're just going to let her fat a$$ lie about you... Lie to your kids AND the court??

Really?

For realz?

Wake up, mate!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Keep doing what you're doing CT. She's starting to take notice. Since you don't have what it takes to leave, maybe she will.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I think people are being a little harsh on CT.

Imagine if he was a woman for a second. People would clearly label the relationship as abusive and label his fears of leaving as legitimate.

He clearly is AFRAID to leave. It is in his head, but that does not mean it is not real to him.

CT-- I agree with others who have suggested you need to go on offense here. Get a good lawyer-- preferably a woman-- it will present you in a more sympathetic light.

Lay out all of the accusations your wife is making and let your lawyer go to town.

Hit your wife with both barrels. You did not make this a war but if that's the way she wants to play you must acknowledge what you are dealing with and play to win.

I would also strongly recommend getting into individual counseling as well because from my standpoint you clearly seem to be afraid of this woman.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Keep doing what you're doing CT. She's starting to take notice. Since you don't have what it takes to leave, maybe she will.


What? She who? C2?

I'm not doing anything to her. I'm just trying to survive until C4 is out of school.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

i'm guessing you will hate this but can you just disappear?

why do have to initiate divorce?

just leave and cut all contact.

seems to me your wife would be up sh-t's creek if you did that.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> What? She who? C2?
> 
> I'm not doing anything to her. I'm just trying to survive until C4 is out of school.


You obviously didn't read the thread she posted complaining that you're not giving her enough love and attention. Once she realized that we knew she was your wife she deleted it.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/members/popoki.html


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I think people are being a little harsh on CT.
> 
> Imagine if he was a woman for a second. People would clearly label the relationship as abusive and label his fears of leaving as legitimate.
> 
> He clearly is AFRAID to leave. It is in his head, but that does not mean it is not real to him.


Anon... it's not in my head. It's not that I'm so much afraid of her as I'm afraid of what she will do to the kids. Not physically, she wouldn't do that, and not emotionally, but how she would present me in front of them. I don't want her tearing me down in their eyes anymore than she has already. My daughter thinks I'm sick, since that is what C2 told the kids ("Daddy's sick and confused right now and we have to be understanding and try to help him... etc.") Next I'm afraid she will dredged up some old accusations (the marital rape thing, the imagined affairs, etc) and start using that with them.

I have also found out that she is willing to wreck (in my opinion) C4's future. She told him that if I left she wouldn't agree to return him to his school. All three of us have to sign a code of conduct agreement for him to be in the school. C4 has to get good grades, not get in fights, etc. The parents have to agree to pay on time and make sure the kids are dropped off and picked up in a timely manner. Things like that. 

According to C4, if I leave she can't sign the papers because she can't trust me to abide by the agreement. After all, according to her, I can't abide by the "'Till do us part" of the marriage vows, so how can she trust me to abide by anything? So I promised C4 I would stay, no matter what. 

And she can very easily do this. Tuesday we have to go sign the papers for the upcoming school year. If any of us three refuse to sign, C4 can't attend. I didn't confront her about it because I don't want risk his attending this school that he worked so hard to get into. It's sad, but it is what it is and my happiness isn't so important to me that I am willing to risk that. 





Anon1111 said:


> CT-- I agree with others who have suggested you need to go on offense here. Get a good lawyer-- preferably a woman-- it will present you in a more sympathetic light.
> 
> Lay out all of the accusations your wife is making and let your lawyer go to town.
> 
> ...



What is going on? Why the sudden renewed interest? I thought everyone had given me up as hopeless. Then I get TWO additions to the thread in the same day. 


Copper


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> Anon... it's not in my head. It's not that I'm so much afraid of her as I'm afraid of what she will do to the kids. Not physically, she wouldn't do that, and not emotionally, but how she would present me in front of them. I don't want her tearing me down in their eyes anymore than she has already. My daughter thinks I'm sick, since that is what C2 told the kids ("Daddy's sick and confused right now and we have to be understanding and try to help him... etc.") Next I'm afraid she will dredged up some old accusations (the marital rape thing, the imagined affairs, etc) and start using that with them.
> 
> I have also found out that she is willing to wreck (in my opinion) C4's future. She told him that if I left she wouldn't agree to return him to his school. All three of us have to sign a code of conduct agreement for him to be in the school. C4 has to get good grades, not get in fights, etc. The parents have to agree to pay on time and make sure the kids are dropped off and picked up in a timely manner. Things like that.
> 
> ...


Because your wife was posting all morning about her husband who has an addiction, which turned out to be a sex addiction because he wants sex once every few months. She didn't like the advice she was receiving, and then realized you were on here, and she deleted it. We all now have a very clear picture of the kind of woman you are dealing with!


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

CT-- here is how you address this.

1. Take your kids someplace outside of the home and explain to them what is going on. Tell them their mother is LYING to them. Say you wish it wasn't the case but that is what is happening. Let them know if they have ANY questions about what is going on with you, they should come to YOU. 

2. Get a LAWYER.

3. Any time your wife wants to talk to you about anything, she will do it in writing or in the presence of your lawyer. Have the lawyer send her a letter via certified mail that says this.

4. Have your lawyer send a letter to your child's school and explain you are involved in a divorce and, unfortunately, your wife is playing games with your children. Let them know that you will need them to dispense with your wife signing anything as she is trying to use that as leverage in your divorce. Say you don't want the school to be involved in this at all and you are trying to save them the trouble. They cannot hold this against your child.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Your wife was whining that you don't talk to her anymore. That you'll only answer questions, but you don't initiate conversation or pay any attention to her. She's feeling like you don't care about her anymore! lol


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I think it's ashame the way that you all are attacking CT. I understand what he's trying to tell you, but there seems to be a refusal in this forum to believe the way that men and women are treated in divorce court. The old saying is, and I believe it still to be true to this day, if you have breasts you can't lose in divorce court. They will believe anything a woman says without asking for evidence, they will award any kind of custody arrangement she wants while making the man pay whatever it is, no matter if he can or what it would do to his life. It doesn't even matter what kind of custody arrangement a man want's, he won't even be listened to. If you want to ignore this, fine. You will then never know where CT is coming from. When he's telling you he can't do something, it's because he can't, not because he doesn't want to. I went through the same thing.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You obviously didn't read the thread she posted complaining that you're not giving her enough love and attention. Once she realized that we knew she was your wife she deleted it.
> 
> Talk About Marriage - View Profile: Popoki


Oh.

Well, good for her I guess. I haven't been back much until I got notified of the posts here.

Swell. Another thing to deal with. What I don't understand why she is complaining. I have completely given in. I'm not asking her to do anything at all. She can play her video games in peace and I don't bother her, I don't try to talk to her, I do everything she asks of me without complaint. She wants gas in her car, I go put gas in her car. She wants me to run errands, I run errands. I will even hold her if she asks me to. What more does she want from me? I thought that IS what she wanted from me. 

By the way, Popoki was the name of her cat way back when.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Popoki is Hawaiian for "cat". It's like naming your cat "Cat". Creative.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> Oh.
> 
> Well, good for her I guess. I haven't been back much until I got notified of the posts here.
> 
> ...


Truthfully, it doesn't sound like she knows what she wants either. Well, except for you to be happy in a sexless marriage. That part was crystal clear. She wanted to know how to get you to be happy with the way she wants things (no sex).


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

And if that was a real thread by your actual wife ... dude.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Your wife was whining that you don't talk to her anymore. That you'll only answer questions, but you don't initiate conversation or pay any attention to her. She's feeling like you don't care about her anymore! lol


Huh. Imagine that. I wonder why?

I was willing to put up with a lot, I still am, but pulling out all those old accusations that I thought we were past... that hurt. A lot. 

Using the kids as leverage... that's just low. I will never, EVER, do that. Karma is a real (female dog) sometimes. I don't know if I'm now paying for something I did in my past or what, but someday all this will come out and then I will be clear.

The only good thing... right now I don't care if I ever touch another woman again. That makes doing without a lot easier.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Truthfully, it doesn't sound like she knows what she wants either. Well, except for you to be happy in a sexless marriage. That part was crystal clear. She wanted to know how to get you to be happy with the way she wants things (no sex).


To be fair, she did mention that she feels assaulted and used by him wrt sexuality. She may be ... is there a loopy emoticon? I mean the kid business certainly makes it seem like she is.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> i'm guessing you will hate this but can you just disappear?
> 
> why do have to initiate divorce?
> 
> ...


If I understand what you are saying, that means abandoning the kids, right?

Can't do it. They (my son in particular) are the only things keeping me going at the moment, and I can't take him with me. That would clearly be kidnapping and I could go to jail.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> CT-- here is how you address this.
> 
> 1. Take your kids someplace outside of the home and explain to them what is going on. Tell them their mother is LYING to them. Say you wish it wasn't the case but that is what is happening. Let them know if they have ANY questions about what is going on with you, they should come to YOU.
> 
> ...



Taking under advisement. I need to talk to the school first and find out if they can/will do what you suggest. They have certain rules they have follow and I need to know if they can bend or break them. You have to remember how quick people are to sue, and they may be afraid to make exceptions. 

But thanks for the suggestion.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> To be fair, she did mention that she feels assaulted and used by him wrt sexuality. She may be ... is there a loopy emoticon? I mean the kid business certainly makes it seem like she is.


That thread had a whiff of mental illness about it, to my untrained but very experienced ear.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Huh. Imagine that. I wonder why?
> 
> I was willing to put up with a lot, I still am, but pulling out all those old accusations that I thought we were past... that hurt. A lot.
> 
> ...


your kids deserve to know who their mother really is. you are not helping them by covering for her. if she can turn on you like this she can turn on them. she is actually already doing so by threatening your son's school situation.

this woman actually has zero real leverage.

you could completely blow her out of the water in an instant.

she is completely dependent on you and she is taunting you.

she's like a lion in a cage. looks tough but completely helpless.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Truthfully, it doesn't sound like she knows what she wants either. Well, except for you to be happy in a sexless marriage. That part was crystal clear. She wanted to know how to get you to be happy with the way she wants things (no sex).


That is what she wants. All the emotional support, but none of the physical intimacy. 

Octollo(sp?) suggested that people like her view their lack of need as a need in itself. When he said that, and it wasn't even in reference to C2, a lightbulb popped on in my head. That explained it PERFECTLY. She sees me not meeting her need just like I don't feel like she is meeting mine. 

Unfortunately, she has some hangups about divorce that makes this messy. I don't want to divorce either, I feel like I have failed as a man and husband, but I am not willing to wreck everything to keep a dysfunctional marriage together.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Because your wife was posting all morning about her husband who has an addiction, which turned out to be a sex addiction because he wants sex once every few months. She didn't like the advice she was receiving, and then realized you were on here, and she deleted it. We all now have a very clear picture of the kind of woman you are dealing with!


That is fishy, she posted on CT's thread several threads ago. So she knew he was posting on here months ago. She posted a long message blasting everyone here. Something smells dank, and musty under the bridge.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

kristin2349 said:


> That is fishy, she posted on CT's thread several threads ago. So she knew he was posting on here months ago. She posted a long message blasting everyone here. Something smells dank, and musty under the bridge.


When she posted that, it was before the site got a makeover. She claimed that she didn't realize it was the same place because it looked completely different.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Copper, so that was your wife? Oh dude...how on earth have you managed this marriage for so long? She thinks you have a sex addiction because you want sex more than twice a year! 

Frankly, I think your wife is mentally ill. And it's the stubborn nasty kind of mentally ill. The kind where she could rationalize royally screwing up your kids just so she can be "right."

Look, you are a smart guy but for some reason you don't seem to have much fortitude and you don't think through problems in terms of solving them. You think it through come to an issue and stop right there instead of solving it and once again moving forward.

Your kids schools have, I am certain, dealt with divorces a few times and as a result, I am certain that they will indeed accept an honor code signed by only one parent! For god sakes did you really need someone to spell that out for you?

You know your wife is emotionally blackmailing you and so you give up. Really? Is that what you would tell your daughter or your son in that situation? You'd tell them to just bear as best they could?

It should be consolation that your wife is not happy that you're clearly detaching from her. What she has been doing to you for YEARS is no longer working. So she doubles down to make it work once again. Stay strong and stay disconnected!

Go see a lawyer about divorcing a wife likely to employ parental alienation as a means of control.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> To be fair, she did mention that she feels assaulted and used by him wrt sexuality. She may be ... is there a loopy emoticon? I mean the kid business certainly makes it seem like she is.


She DOES feel this way. This is not a new accusation that she has whipped out just to try to hurt me. This goes WAY back, back to just after the birth of our first. 

She accused me to pressuring her into sex by my constant attempts to get our intimacy back. She knows it isn't actual rape, not in the classic sense, because I have never forced myself on her. But she said I made her feel violated because I guilted her into having sex when she didn't want to. 

I was stunned, apologized, and backed off for a while to give her some space, and I thought we were past that because she never mentioned it again. But I guess not. Same thing with the molesting my daughter. Old accusation brought up again.

Now, to head off the accusations of "why didn't you leave then?" things, I want to say she apologized both times and I accepted her apology and moved on. I'm not big on grudges and I know from long experience that C2 says things when she is upset that she doesn't mean and regrets. Well, I thought she regretted them, but now I'm not so sure. 

That is the primary reason I refuse to get drawn into fights with her. One of us needs to remain calm and not say things that they later wished they hadn't.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Copper, so that was your wife? Oh dude...how on earth have you managed this marriage for so long? She thinks you have a sex addiction because you want sex more than twice a year!
> 
> Frankly, I think your wife is mentally ill. And it's the stubborn nasty kind of mentally ill. The kind where she could rationalize royally screwing up your kids just so she can be "right."
> 
> ...



All GREAT ADVICE given for the umpteenth time to someone who will never listen. 

I'll short hand it for him....

Yeah BUT...

I can't because...

I promised my son, the tooth fairy and the mailman I wouldn't...

But the big bad wolf will put her Diet Soda down get off her fat @ss and ...

BUT there is GOOD NEWS here people, according to CT her Dr. says she is SO obese she is going to literally DROP DEAD in a few short years, for those of us who aren't living with her. If she is real or imagined she sounds like a nightmare.

We are back on the CT spin cycle until one of the Mods has mercy on our fingers and locks another CT thread.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

CT--you know your wife is probably reading this thread now. I'd suggest getting a mod to move it to the Private section.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Cletus said:


> And if that was a real thread by your actual wife ... dude.



What thread? I took the cat to the vet and missed all that  ???


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

@CopperTop, how old are your children?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> What thread? I took the cat to the vet and missed all that  ???


Oh John you would have LOVED that thread! She is your poster girl for "evil" LD.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

john117 said:


> What thread? I took the cat to the vet and missed all that  ???


Yeah, we got a taste of a troll, CT's wife, or his split personality. Either way, it was fun. You shoulda let the cat die.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Yeah, we got a taste of a troll, CT's wife, or his split personality. Either way, it was fun. *You shoulda let the cat die.*


Literally spit out my coffee laughing!


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Yeah, we got a taste of a troll, CT's wife, or his split personality. Either way, it was fun. You shoulda let the cat die.



Cletus speaking as a "boob owner" I am really enjoying your posts>


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Copper, so that was your wife? Oh dude...how on earth have you managed this marriage for so long? She thinks you have a sex addiction because you want sex more than twice a year!


Welcome to my world. I've been dealing with this for years.






Anon Pink said:


> Frankly, I think your wife is mentally ill. And it's the stubborn nasty kind of mentally ill. The kind where she could rationalize royally screwing up your kids just so she can be "right."


The counselor didn't use the word "Ill." She said C2 "needed help." That was right after she said that she could make no recommendation (and I assume withdrawing her earlier recommendation of divorce) other than try to work out a compromised we could both life with, and right before she fired us.





Anon Pink said:


> Look, you are a smart guy but for some reason you don't seem to have much fortitude and you don't think through problems in terms of solving them. You think it through come to an issue and stop right there instead of solving it and once again moving forward.
> 
> Your kids schools have, I am certain, dealt with divorces a few times and as a result, I am certain that they will indeed accept an honor code signed by only one parent! For god sakes did you really need someone to spell that out for you?


I am very clear. But if what if you're wrong? What if I do this and it blows up in my face. I'M not the one that will pay the price, C4 is. I come back to how much is my happiness worth? Not that much. I can stand anything for three years. 





Anon Pink said:


> You know your wife is emotionally blackmailing you and so you give up. Really? Is that what you would tell your daughter or your son in that situation? You'd tell them to just bear as best they could?


Yes, after a fashion. I would counsel them that there are other things more important than oneself. I would give my life for them without a moment's hesitation. Shouldn't I be willing to give up a little happiness for to make sure they are as well prepared for the future as possible?





Anon Pink said:


> It should be consolation that your wife is not happy that you're clearly detaching from her. What she has been doing to you for YEARS is no longer working. So she doubles down to make it work once again. Stay strong and stay disconnected!
> 
> Go see a lawyer about divorcing a wife likely to employ parental alienation as a means of control.


It's not. I hate that we are here. If I could, I would go back to where we were a few years ago... if for no other reason than to make the wait easier.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> CT--you know your wife is probably reading this thread now. I'd suggest getting a mod to move it to the Private section.


Maybe. Don't really care.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Yeah, we got a taste of a troll, CT's wife, or his split personality. Either way, it was fun. You shoulda let the cat die.



It's a $1500 cat so....


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Literally spit out my coffee laughing!


Dare I remind you to work on your swallowing <rim shot>?

Actually, that reminds me of one of the most embarrassing things to ever happen to me. The IT department sent the local worker bee down to add some memory to my PC. She was young, quite pretty, and dressed nicely as she bent over my PC and worked. I was standing by with a cup of coffee in my hand, waiting. Took a sip, inhaled a little coffee into my lungs, and before I could clamp down on the reflex, spit a mouthful all over her back. 

I still cringe when I think about it.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> @CopperTop, how old are your children?


20, still living at home, and 15.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

kristin2349 said:


> Cletus speaking as a "boob owner" I am really enjoying your posts>


As a boob lover, I appreciate that.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> 20, still living at home, and 15.


Sooooo, what... 3 to 7 more years until you pull the plug...?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Sooooo, what... 3 to 7 more years until you pull the plug...?


Hopefully something will change and we can move past this, but if not...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Hopefully something will change and we can move past this, but if not...


But if not....

nothing. Everyone knows it, even you. Not sure why you pretend it's anything different.

I'm curious, if your daughter were in an abusive relationship, showing up with bruises or worse, would you tell her to stay because of her vows or because of her fear? You're in an abusive relationship and your reaction is exactly like that of the chronically and severely abused. You're also an example for your children. Your life is what you wish for them? IMHO that makes you abusive toward them as well.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Welcome to my world. I've been dealing with this for years.
> 
> 
> The counselor didn't use the word "Ill." She said C2 "needed help." That was right after she said that she could make no recommendation (and I assume withdrawing her earlier recommendation of divorce) other than try to work out a compromised we could both life with, and right before she fired us.


She fired you because it was not ethical to keep taking your money knowing KNOWING that neither you nor you wife were benefiting at all. 

Why? 
Because neither of you were willing to take a risk. Sad.






> I am very clear. But if what if you're wrong? What if I do this and it blows up in my face. I'M not the one that will pay the price, C4 is. I come back to how much is my happiness worth? Not that much. I can stand anything for three years.


What if it doesn't blow up in your face? 

So you lack fortitude because of fear of the unknown and a generally pessimistic outlook?






> Yes, after a fashion. I would counsel them that there are other things more important than oneself. I would give my life for them without a moment's hesitation. Shouldn't I be willing to give up a little happiness for to make sure they are as well prepared for the future as possible?


I hope you misunderstood my question. Are you saying that if your daughter was married to a man who turned out to be emotionally abusive to her you would suggest she "give up a little happiness" to make sure her future is secure?

If your son made the mistake of marrying a woman like his mother, a woman who became morbidly obese and thought sex was only done twice a year you would suggest he stick around for the rest of his life?









> It's not. I hate that we are here. If I could, I would go back to where we were a few years ago... if for no other reason than to make the wait easier.


The wait...you mean the wait for her morbid obesity to kill her? If that's the case, perhaps you should start smoking in the house with her? Make sure there is plenty of salt on all the fried foods. And be sure to drop her off right at the door so she doesn't have to walk any extra steps.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I am very clear. But if what if you're wrong? What if I do this and it blows up in my face. I'M not the one that will pay the price, C4 is. I come back to how much is my happiness worth? Not that much. I can stand anything for three years.


LOL, I got it wrong. I told your wife this morning the clock was ticking, in 5 years you'd be gone

I really feel for you, that women is a piece of work.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> She fired you because it was not ethical to keep taking your money knowing KNOWING that neither you nor you wife were benefiting at all.
> 
> Why?
> Because neither of you were willing to take a risk. Sad.
> ...


*
*


Is it against forum rules if we just focus on ways that he can just continue enabling her literally to death? One of them dying is clearly the only way they will ever break the dysfunctional death grip.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Copper, are you even physically/sexually attracted to your wife?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> Is it against forum rules if we just focus on ways that he can just continue enabling her literally to death? One of them dying is clearly the only way they will ever break the dysfunctional death grip.


Good question! I don't know the answer though.

To continue enabling her to death, other than the things I've already suggested...

He would just have to encourage her bad eating habits, and prevent physical exertion, while also discouraging her from seeing a doctor for high blood pressure, leg cramps that could be blood clots, or any kind of cancer screening. I think taking up smoking might be just the ticket though...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

This woman, as bad as she is, is still a human being. I personally think that all of CT's misery is a product of his own choices so I concentrate my efforts on making him see that and to make different choices. Enabling and encouraging his wife to an early grave just isn't how I roll.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I hope you misunderstood my question. Are you saying that if your daughter was married to a man who turned out to be emotionally abusive to her you would suggest she "give up a little happiness" to make sure her future is secure?
> 
> If your son made the mistake of marrying a woman like his mother, a woman who became morbidly obese and thought sex was only done twice a year you would suggest he stick around for the rest of his life?



Short of physical violence, if there were children (or some other important factor) involved that would benefit by their presence, yes, I would recommend they stay. They made their decision, just as I made mine. Why make someone else, even potentially, pay for my mistake?

When it comes to my kids, I am VERY risk adverse. There is no upside for them if I leave. The best that I could hope to happen is nothing happens. But if something does happen, it will be bad and could negatively affect their future and/or the rest of their lives. 

To be honest, I am as astounded that you would risk everything you should hold dear on the chance for potential happiness as you obviously are that I am not. I would never put myself ahead of my kids... ever. Not while they are minors and are dependent on me. 

In my world I am not the most important person and my kids are at the top of the list. When they become parents, I expect them feel the same way. That child did not ask to be born. It is the parent's responsibility to do everything possible to see them well off into the world. That's what I'm trying to do.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Copper, are you even physically/sexually attracted to your wife?


Not any more.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Short of physical violence, if there were children (or some other important factor) involved that would benefit by their presence, yes, I would recommend they stay. They made their decision, just as I made mine. Why make someone else, even potentially, pay for my mistake?


Living in this psychotic, dysfunctional marriage IS making your kids pay for your mistake. For Sure.



> When it comes to my kids, I am VERY risk adverse. There is no upside for them if I leave.


Except someone modelling healthy behavior.



> The best that I could hope to happen is nothing happens. But if something does happen, it will be bad and could negatively affect their future and/or the rest of their lives.
> 
> To be honest, I am as astounded that you would risk everything you should hold dear on the chance for potential happiness as you obviously are that I am not. I would never put myself ahead of my kids... ever. Not while they are minors and are dependent on me.


I would venture that you currently are. You are letting your fear paralyze your ability to see this dysfunction clearly.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Short of physical violence, if there were children (or some other important factor) involved that would benefit by their presence, yes, I would recommend they stay. They made their decision, just as I made mine. Why make someone else, even potentially, pay for my mistake?
> 
> When it comes to my kids, I am VERY risk adverse. There is no upside for them if I leave. The best that I could hope to happen is nothing happens. But if something does happen, it will be bad and could negatively affect their future and/or the rest of their lives.
> 
> ...


Personally, I don't care what you do or don't do. But I'm ducking out on some lawn work so...

Why do you think the safety schpiel flight attendants do includes the warning that parents should place their mask over their head FIRST and then attend to their child?

There is no way the woman who was on line and posting this morning hasn't also adversely affected her kids development! If nothing else, your wife has MOST certainly communicated that sex is dirty, shameful, and hasn't educated either of your children about sex, their bodies, or their developing sexuality. THAT is what sickens me. Yet another American family teaches their kids to grow up with sexual shame, repression and almost ensures those kids will have fvcked up marriages JUST like yours!

Is that the message you want your kids to get from your "intact" family?

You see yourself as the tragic hero but you're not. You're afraid and cowardly, hiding behind your kids so you don't have to face the unpleasantness of confronting the truth of your life.


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## Avogadro (Mar 31, 2015)

So, I have lurked here for years now. This thread has russled my jimmies to the point of getting me to post. OP is either a grand master troll or has issues I can not even empathize with, and I thought I could empathize with just about anyone.

Your wife is (recap)
-Emotionally abusive
-Morbidly Obese
-Zero contribution to household
-Sexually unavailable
-Makes false rape/molestation accusations
-Lies to your children about you.

You, my friend are simply taking the path of least resistance. In my opinion, you are being cowardly. Men act, and you need to take some action. Why?

By letting your youngest believe that there is even the smallest shred of how a human should behave coming out of your wife, you are damaging him both emotionally and psychologically.

I'll go even farther than than. By not demonstrating to the boy how to man up, deal with the situation and take action, you are committing CHILD ABUSE in the same manner as your wife.

There it is. Now I have to go for a walk a calm down.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I would venture that you currently are. You are letting your fear paralyze your ability to see this dysfunction clearly.


We are going in circles again. So this is my last post unless something new comes up.

And no, I am not blind to the dysfunction. But let's assume I do file for separation. Further, let's assume that for whatever reason C4 is no longer able to attend the school he is in. 

So while I might show some perceived moral strength, that isn't going to get him back in the school. Once out, he is out forever. No take backs, no do overs. 

He and I had a long, long talk one day. He's afraid. Afraid for his future, afraid he won't get to stay in the school he loves, afraid he will have to go back into general education. He is only a (high school) sophomore, but this year he will be taking junior and senior classes in addition to his college load. If he gets kicked out, what is he going to do for two years? Public education no longer has ANYTHING to offer him. 

Would that happen? I don't know. Maybe not. But that is my problem. I don't KNOW. I can't predict the outcome. C4 asked me to please(!) stay and not risk having his mom carry out her threat. I agreed. That is something I can control, and since she is getting what she wants, she had no reason to punish me through him. C2 was as excited as I was when he was accepted into the school and is very proud of him (as am I). I don't think she really wants to take him out and is just using it as leverage. 

C4 HAS to go to school. That's a given. But does he have to go to THIS school? I'm very worried that in the end I would lose that battle and C4 will pay the price as she takes her anger for me out on him. She wants to be married above all else. I can give her that as insurance for C4.

I gave him my word that I would do anything and everything to keep him in the school he likes so well. If that makes me weak, then I guess I will just have to be weak.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> We are going in circles again. So this is my last post unless something new comes up.
> 
> And no, I am not blind to the dysfunction. But let's assume I do file for separation. Further, let's assume that for whatever reason C4 is no longer able to attend the school he is in.


Why would you assume that? You have not spoken to the school. You have not seen a lawyer. You are making stuff up.



> So while I might show some perceived moral strength, that isn't going to get him back in the school. Once out, he is out forever. No take backs, no do overs.
> 
> He and I had a long, long talk one day. He's afraid. Afraid for his future, afraid he won't get to stay in the school he loves, afraid he will have to go back into general education. He is only a (high school) sophomore, but this year he will be taking junior and senior classes in addition to his college load. If he gets kicked out, what is he going to do for two years? Public education no longer has ANYTHING to offer him.


Holy drama, batman! Sounds like you are encouraging in him the exact same operation from position of fear you use. Poor kid.



> Would that happen? I don't know. Maybe not. But that is my problem. I don't KNOW. I can't predict the outcome. C4 asked me to please(!) stay and not risk having his mom carry out her threat. I agreed. That is something I can control, and since she is getting what she wants, she had no reason to punish me through him. C2 was as excited as I was when he was accepted into the school and is very proud of him (as am I). I don't think she really wants to take him out and is just using it as leverage.
> 
> C4 HAS to go to school. That's a given. But does he have to go to THIS school? I'm very worried that in the end I would lose that battle and C4 will pay the price as she takes her anger for me out on him. She wants to be married above all else. I can give her that as insurance for C4.
> 
> I gave him my word that I would do anything and everything to keep him in the school he likes so well. If that makes me weak, then I guess I will just have to be weak.


Sigh. Good luck with that.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> Why would you assume that? You have not spoken to the school. You have not seen a lawyer. You are making stuff up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, you may be looking at only two years, rather than three. Assuming you can get his senior year note signed, that would be filed by September 2017. Once in for the final year, I would think that your concerns regarding his ability to attend would be addressed.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> We are going in circles again. So this is my last post unless something new comes up.



*C.T., Maybe one day this will be all over for you my man.*


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> Actually, you may be looking at only two years, rather than three. Assuming you can get his senior year note signed, that would be filed by September 2017. Once in for the final year, I would think that your concerns regarding his ability to attend would be addressed.



He said he is not responding, BUT we all know he ain't leavin', ever! I'd bet both hands on it.

I am sure that Mrs. CT already has a "threat" that will keep CT right where he is most comfortable, in his role as her doormat.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> *C.T., Maybe one day this will be all over for you my man.*


That's one cautionary tail.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> That's one cautionary tail.



You are SO punny, good play on the typo I got one in early in the thread.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

MarriedTex said:


> Actually, you may be looking at only two years, rather than three. Assuming you can get his senior year note signed, that would be filed by September 2017. Once in for the final year, I would think that your concerns regarding his ability to attend would be addressed.



In 2017 it will be something else. Count on it.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> The reason I can't leave? Because I dread standing in court and defending myself against accusations of serial raping my wife for twenty years. I don't want to have to explain why I'm not a child molester. I don't want to have to try explain away her accusations of me having one affair after another. I don't want to spend god knows how much money to try to break out of a marriage when she is spending god know how much money to keep me locked in. The kids that used to carpool with my son no longer want to continue that relationship though it was beneficial for all involved.
> 
> She has already ruined my relationship with my daughter. My daughter will no longer stay alone with me because she is "afraid of what I might do." My son is afraid I'm going to abandon him because "All I care about is myself."
> 
> .


CT, in the first post of this thread, you complained that you are no longer FRIENDS with your wife. Would friend make accusations like this? Would friend try to damage your relationship with your kids? Would loving wife do that, even she did not like sex?

I am sorry, but she is not your friend. And has not been for a while, if ever. Posters here, or counselor did not make you lose friend. It just help you see her true face. But you still prefer to put blame on everybody aroud you, but her. Why? because you do not want to admit that you are in abusive relationship.


This is just based on the what you write here. just those two paragraphs are enough to see that. 

And you only give ultimatums, if you are ready to accept consequences.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Your sons is already as scared as you are. Is this what you want to teach him?


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> When it comes to my kids, I am VERY risk adverse. There is no upside for them if I leave. The best that I could hope to happen is nothing happens. But if something does happen, it will be bad and could negatively affect their future and/or the rest of their lives.


But you're not risk adverse.

That's the problem.

You actually think your kids don't know that there are major issues.
You don't believe that they are wise enough to figure out that there is no love between mom and dad.
You don't think you and your wive's behavior isn't affecting them because you two are being "secretive" about your warfare.

You are putting them at great risk. Your assumption that you are keeping them safe and stable will have horrific consequences for their future.

Here's an upside to you divorcing - they get a safe place to go to when ever they come to your new house. Here's an upside - they get to see dad happy and not being beaten down. Here's an upside - they get to see dad with a person who loves and adores him.

Your "but if something does happen" is pure drivel. You could be hit by a bus and killed. There could be a school shooting where you loose a child. The skies could open up and an alien war force decides to conquer Earth. It's an excuse not to do anything.



CopperTop said:


> To be honest, I am as astounded that you would risk everything you should hold dear on the chance for potential happiness as you obviously are that I am not. I would never put myself ahead of my kids... ever. Not while they are minors and are dependent on me.


Really?
Do you know what it means to give up happiness? It means you choose to live the life you currently have. That life, which contrary to what you believe is negatively affecting your children.

Also, if you are putting your kids ahead of yourself, then how can you possibly hope to take care of them. If you're not well or happy, how can you be the best father that you can be to/for them? 

Do you honestly believe that they don't realize how miserable you are. Do you realize that your kids will more than likely end up hating you because your martyrdom of staying for them will make them realize that they were the reason you stayed in a relationship that made you miserable? What kind of mind f*** damage do you think will happen - 5 years of therapy, 10...15? You're doing a lot more damage than you think.

Here' are some interesting questions - Have you looked in the mirror and asked yourself if you're truly happy? Have you looked in the mirror and asked yourself if your kids are truly happy?

I'm not trying to be a jerk. Your threads are painful to read because of your inability to see the forest because of all the trees.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

snerg said:


> Do you realize that your kids will more than likely end up hating you because your martyrdom of staying for them will make them realize that they were the reason you stayed in a relationship that made you miserable? What kind of mind f*** damage do you think will happen


I kinda doubt that this story is happening outside the twilight zone. But if it is, this guys kids and especially his son, would be much better off without him or that Duroc he's married to. Ain't much worse on a boy than seeing his daddy responding like a worm. Parents, bless their hearts , are oftentimes their kids worse role model.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Would that happen? I don't know. Maybe not. But that is my problem. I don't KNOW. I can't predict the outcome. C4 asked me to please(!) stay and not risk having his mom carry out her threat. I agreed.


Ok this needs revisiting.What did you just teach your child? Really think about that. You taught him that his DESIRE to go to that school outweighs the mental health of the family.



> That is something I can control, and since she is getting what she wants, she had no reason to punish me through him. C2 was as excited as I was when he was accepted into the school and is very proud of him (as am I). I don't think she really wants to take him out and is just using it as leverage.
> 
> C4 HAS to go to school. That's a given. But does he have to go to THIS school?


He really doesn't. Does he? 



> I'm very worried that in the end I would lose that battle and C4 will pay the price as she takes her anger for me out on him. She wants to be married above all else. I can give her that as insurance for C4.
> 
> I gave him my word that *I would do anything and everything to keep him in the school he likes so well*. If that makes me weak, then I guess I will just have to be weak.


That is not weak per se. That is putting a medium priority item WAY ahead of a MASSIVE priority item. In the process you are feeding his fear.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Why do I keep coming back to this thread, hoping for a different outcome?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I really like how cavalier everyone is with my son's future. We just returned from getting C4 enrolled for the new school year. Since we arrived in separate cars, I was able to stay and talk to the principle of the school with C4.

Here are some facts about my situation with C4 and the threats. 

Fact: Enrollment in this school is completely voluntary. Either parent with joint custody, or the parent with primary custody, or the student themselves, can ask to be removed from the school. Any request will be granted and the student will return to normal high school. Once leave is granted, the student is ineligible to return. 

Fact: If either parent with joint custody objects to the student being transferred back into general education, that has no bearing on the request. I was shown the clause in the contract that we signed that states that ANY request to have the student removed from the school will be granted if the person asking has standing. See above. This is there so that parents can't force their child to attend if they don't want to. 

Fact: If the student misses more than five consecutive days without a doctor's excuse, the student will be expelled. Once expelled, the student is ineligible to return.

Fact: If the student misses ten days in total in the school year, the student will be expelled.

Fact: If the student doesn't meet stated academic standards, is involved in behavior disruptive to the school (fights, mouthing off, cheating, vandalism, etc) OR if the PARENTS are disruptive to the school, the student will be expelled. Think habitually not getting the kids there or picking them up on time. Those were given as examples in the contract. The principle also said that parents harassing teachers or other student or generally being a pain in the rear would also qualify. All these rules are all one and done. There are no do overs. 

Fact: The school will take action to help/protect the child only if there is evidence of physical or sexual abuse. The ONLY way the school will abridge this contract is under a court order. As she said, we only invite students to attend, we don't try to make them stay. Unhappy students are disruptive to others.


The principle couldn't understand why ANYONE would voluntarily pull their child out of the school. This is a high functioning school with very strict codes. Only the cream of the crop get invited to attend, and not all of them make the cut. But in this school, there are no drugs, no violence, no bullies and the students are allowed to explore and excel in ways they cannot in a regular high school. Last year, his first year, C4 was attending an advanced mathematics and some philosophy class with 20-40 year old adults. Next summer he goes to Europe for the summer to study. You just don't get opportunities like this every day.

So could he go to another school? Of course. But prestigious colleges recruit heavily from this school because these are the best, brightest, least troublesome students in the area. We would be colossally stupid to throw this opportunity away. 

To prevent C4 from carrying out her threat (if she chose to do so) I would have to convince a judge, somewhere, to issue a stay, of some kind, to prevent C2 from moving her son from one school to another despite a contract that we all signed saying that she could. I would also have to do it in such a way that it is done BEFORE she can ask to have C4 transferred out of the school. I haven't spoken to a lawyer, but for some reason that sounds like a hard sell to me. 

Further, C4 knows what's going on. He knows exactly why I'm staying. I don't feel like I'm being beaten down. I'm treating her like I would any other work/teammate, with kindness and respect, but nothing more. She is doing the same. We are not constantly sniping at each other. We are...chilly... toward each other but are making it work.

One said I was placing a middling priority over a high priority. Maybe in his/her world, but not mine. Getting my kids off to a good start ranks far above my desire marital happiness. Lots of people stay in a bad marriage because of the kids. I'm no different. 

And the reason people keep coming back to this thread is because despite everything, no one can help but look at a wreck as they pass by.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> One said I was placing a middling priority over a high priority.


That was me.


> Maybe in his/her world, but not mine. Getting my kids off to a good start ranks far above my desire marital happiness.


And it had NOTHING to do with your "happiness".



> Lots of people stay in a bad marriage because of the kids. I'm no different.


Lots of people do lots of dumb things.


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## ToothFairy (May 19, 2013)

Why are you allowing the threat of rape charges and sexual abuse of your daughter scare you into submission. Is there any truth to these? I for one wouldn't stand by and allow someone to blackmale me with such crap when I know there is ZERO truth to it. Is there any reason you should be worried here? If not... GET OVER IT!! you are choosing this life and your kids are practically grown... they are old enough to figure out the truth on their own. I cannot believe this whole pathetic story is true. If it really is true... it's all excuses and blind fear.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> I really like how cavalier everyone is with my son's future. We just returned from getting C4 enrolled for the new school year. Since we arrived in separate cars, I was able to stay and talk to the principle of the school with C4.
> 
> Here are some facts about my situation with C4 and the threats.
> 
> ...


Take that information to an attorney


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

ToothFairy said:


> I cannot believe this whole pathetic story is true


When measured by modern technology.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm confused.

If it's such a great school, why on earth would C2 pull C4 out of it anyway? Just for blackmail purposes, to hold you hostage there?

What kind of mother behaves this way?

And how could you possibly think it's remotely healthy to stay with someone who could be so horrid to her child just to get back at her husband?

Her threats (which will only hurt your child) should be reason enough to send you packing. If C4 ends up in a "regular" high school, so be it. If he's as smart as you say, he will get recruited by a good college with or without that school.

This really is a no-brainer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

Lmao, yep only kids that go to high school with 40 year olds get recruited to colleges....


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Sbrown said:


> Lmao, yep *only kids that go to high school with 40 year olds get recruited *to colleges....


:rofl: :iagree:

My son, who is smart as a whip, got courted by no fewer than FOUR colleges that were all offering him very attractive scholarship packages.

But I guess it's better to remain a slave to your obese wife who calls ALL the shots and controls EVERYONE's destiny within the household because you and your son are too timid to tell her to f*ck off.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

I wonder is it the stimulating education he's getting from the school or the chance to be away from his crazy, lazy, and abusive parents that attracts this boy to love this school.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Sbrown said:


> I wonder is it the stimulating education he's getting from the school or the chance to be away from his crazy, lazy, and abusive parents that attracts this boy to love this school.



I'm really wondering more and more about this school, seriously do they ONLY deal with totally intact families? If TWO parents & kid need to sign (no leeway for divorce and separation?) Come on what sort of time warp does this exist in ? I guess the same one where the 40 year olds that are taking classes with HS students got stuck:scratchhead:


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

By the way, as a former educator, I have NEVER heard of a school that...

* Student is out sick because of a chronic illness (including depression from his parents' f*cked up marriage) -- WHAM!! You're out!!
* Parents are going through a vitriolic relationship/possible divorce, student is suffering -- WHAM!! You're out!!
* Angry, nasty parent in the middle of a possible divorce wants to punish their child -- WHAM!! You're out!!
* Obese parent wants to drag their kid into the middle of home strife, punitiveness, threats -- WHAM!! You're out!!

If this is REALLY the way the school operates (not Copper's jaded view due to his wife's *threats* about the school cutting C4 off) then I would want NO PART OF IT!! If they can't offer a guidance counselor and school pshychologist to help C4 navigate his parents' bullsh*t, then what's the point of this "wonderful" school??

Send him to "regular" high school. Let him navigate his own path to a future, one that DOES NOT include Copper and his wife's bullsh*t.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> By the way, as a former educator, I have NEVER heard of a school that...
> 
> * Student is out sick because of a chronic illness (including depression from his parents' f*cked up marriage) -- WHAM!! You're out!!
> * Parents are going through a vitriolic relationship/possible divorce, student is suffering -- WHAM!! You're out!!
> ...




Read the summary at the top of this page, it is filled with FACTS>

(cough BS/excuses)


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I have kids. I get it. But the school that they go to is SOOOO much less important than their physical, emotional and mental health. Without the latter the former won't do them much good.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I have kids. I get it. *But the school that they go to is SOOOO much less important than their physical, emotional and mental health*. Without the latter the former won't do them much good.


:iagree:

CT.... what are you missing here? Has your rotund wife emasculated you so much that you REFUSE to believe that your child (smart as he is!) will be just fine without her toxic head games in his life?

How have you managed to convince HIM (and YOURSELF) that this obese, lazy, sloth Mom HOLDS ALL THE CARDS???

I have never witnessed a marriage that needs to END more than this *unhealthy excuse *of one.

Clearly, he has assimilated ALL your negative beliefs into his own. He is "freaking out" about his schooling. This is NOT normal for a kid his age.

*This is why TOXIC marriages should end. So you DON'T pass down to the NEXT generation ALL OF YOUR OWN DYSFUNCTION.*

Own it. And then apologize profusely to your children. For all of the cr*p you *both* have subjected them to.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I Lots of people stay in a bad marriage because of the kids. I'm no different.
> 
> .


True. But yours is not just bad. She is your worst enemy. She terrorized you into submission


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I think people read too much into stuff here and read things I never said. 

He is not "freaking" out. He wants to attend the school he wants to attend. He asked me to please stay so he wouldn't have to go back to general high school. He's not freaking out.

And what head games? C2 told them I was leaving. I've proven I'm not.

C2 told them I don't love them if I leave. I'm still there.

So far as I know, the only person she told the marriage rape stuff to was the counselor when she suggested divorce. I just as soon keep it that way and not have to deal with THAT as well.

Right now we are making it work. I'm living my life and she is living hers. So long as I don't prod the lion, it's pretty quiet. So why antagonize her and risk making a volatile situation even worse? 

I have enough headaches to deal with without that. I had been bugging C3 about her grades for weeks, and last night I found out that she failed two of her college courses. When I invoked the one and done rule (if you fail a college class you have to pay to take it over out of your own pocket) she informed me it was MY fault and said she wasn't returning to school in the fall. 

The rule was that the kids could stay at home so long as they are in school, so I told her if she quit, she had 6 months to find a job and move out. At one point C2 and I were in agreement on these rules, but last night C2 turned on me and said I wasn't throw C3 out, she didn't have to pay for the failed courses, and that C3 had to return to school.

That started a cascade of problems that I'm dealing with now as C2 & C3 battle it out over school, complete with slamming doors and saying things that I KNOW they are both going to regret when they calm down.

So if I can let sleeping dogs lie for C4, why shouldn't I?


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

Lol my shocked face ..... your wife just bullied you again....


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I think people read too much into stuff here and read things I never said.
> 
> He is not "freaking" out. He wants to attend the school he wants to attend. He asked me to please stay so he wouldn't have to go back to general high school. He's not freaking out.
> 
> ...


So basically you have no say so with your kids....at all. They dislike you and blame you for them failing. It's too late dude. You should have left. Your kids are 15 and 20 . What difference is 5 more years going to make other than your son blaming you when he fails something?


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

This is beyond sad.

Best of luck with this extremely dysfunctional situation, one where the kids and wife run the show, and C3 is turning into a clone of C2. I will bow out now as there is nothing constructive I can offer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> So long as I don't prod the lion, it's pretty quiet.


The way you describe her, a lion ain't what most folks envision.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

"The lesson, kids, is that you should always blame the man for your problems, and the man of the house has no right to freedom or happiness."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop, this forum is supposed to be about offering and receiving support wrt marriage. Sometimes support needs to be only empathy because for what ever reason, the OP simply cannot take action at that time. 

I therefor offer my empathy as support for your very troubled marriage. I wish I, or someone here, had the magic words that would fill you with confidence and enough optimism to take action that would help you lead a happier life.

The only action you feel you can take right now is complete emotional detachment from your wife. To wait it out until your son completes high school, in another 3 years. During these next 3 years, you have to remain emotionally detached from your wife, yet pleasant, cooperative, and connected to your kids. That is a very difficult assignment you've set for yourself.

What worries me is how your kids are reacting to this troubled home life. You feel like a hostage trying to help your kids under the insane and vindictive dictatorship your wife has installed. 

How would you characterize your relationship with your daughter and with your son? Do they talk openly with you? Do they include you into the things going on in their life? Do they joke around with you? Do you ever spend alone time with either of them?


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Your daughter seems to dislike you a lot. Why is that?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

The son is taking after the father and the daughter is taking after the mother.

I hope the son doesn't marry someone like his mother, but you know how that goes...

And I feel bad for the guy who marries his daughter if she is taking after the mother. Her too, possibly... she would probably be shocked one day to find herself kicked out by a man who does not fear the bullying tactics she grew up learning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I think people are being pretty unkind to CT.

Again, if he was a woman, he would not be on the receiving end of this beatdown.

I am sure in his mind he is doing the only thing he can do.

Imagine if you were in a situation where someone was accusing you of rape, child abuse, etc. The mere ACCUSATION of those things, even if there is no truth to them ultimately, leaves a question mark on your character.

For example, if your child had a male teacher, coach, etc, whose wife accused him of child abuse, would you even stop to ask whether it was true, or would you just assume the guy was unsafe to be around? I know what I would do.

THAT seems to be the situation CT is facing and his fear is understandable.

Now, even though I can understand why CT is afraid, I agree that his inaction is harmful not only to himself but to his children.

Clearly, he needs to shut his wife down.

I would suggest a full on nuclear attack-- get lawyer, get immediate restraining order, cut off ALL financial assistance to the maximum extent allowable under the law.

My bet is if CT acted swiftly and with no mercy, this woman would be revealed to be all bark and no bite.

I believe that CT's kids would ultimately thank him for doing this and his WIFE might even end up being grateful as well.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I think people are being pretty unkind to CT.


Maybe. But CT has had MANY threads here, all with the same theme, all with LOADS of great advice from TAMers. Yet he ignores all of the advice, starts new threads, all with the same complaints.

No change = spinning your wheels.

I think it's more frustration than it is unkindness.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Well, at least at this point he has admitted that he doesn't even like his wife and that she is basically a terrorist.

The next step is to take that realization and turn it into motivation to fight her rather than hide.

Recall that on his earlier threads he constantly questioned whether HE was the one with the problem.

He has moved beyond that now, which is positive.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I think people are being pretty unkind to CT.
> 
> Again, if he was a woman, he would not be on the receiving end of this beatdown.


Is honesty a beat down? I am not sure which posters you are refering to. But I can assure you that my response is not impacted by gender. 



> I am sure in his mind he is doing the only thing he can do.


I think the point of seeing advice from outside people is to challenge your mind to consider other points of view. 



> Imagine if you were in a situation where someone was accusing you of rape, child abuse, etc. The mere ACCUSATION of those things, even if there is no truth to them ultimately, leaves a question mark on your character.


Self doubt is a drag. And maybe therapy would be helpful to him. But given that his highest priority is (as it should be) his children, he could really stand to take a strong look at what is really best for them.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I'm just saying I see a lot of frustration with CT because he won't stand up to his wife or follow what is objectively good advice.

It all sounds easy from the outside, but this is a guy who feels trapped and is scared-- and for legitimate reasons.

Guys aren't supposed to be scared so some people don't have sympathy for it.

He DOES in my opinion deserve some of the harshness because his wife is not only abusing him but abusing their kids as well. To the extent he ignores that or minimizes it, he is really not being the great parent that he aspires to be.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@Anon1111

I can assure you, and can link posts in which I have taken female OP's harshly to task for remaining action less in the event of children being exposed and thus normalized to a mentally ill/abusive spouse. So I don't accept your belief that CT is getting harsh(er) replies because he is male.

What I have noticed here at TAM is that men, oddly enough, are less likely to accept that their wives are abusing their children emotionally and even less likely to take action while women DO accept the advice and wisdom of others and are more likely to take action in protection of their children. And I've noticed that in real life as well. A wife/mother who is doing a really lousy job of raising her kids will be overlooked by her husband, but a husband who is doing a really lousy job of parenting will NOT be overlooked by his wife.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

A quick general reply...

My daughter is highly suggestible and always has been. She leaps from one obsession to another (now it's religion) because someone tells her this is what she SHOULD do, etc. 

She lives in her room. She comes out to join the family for meals, but other than that, nobody sees her. She is deeply unhappy but I can't seem to break through that to help her. I have tried to draw her out, to get her involved with activities, either with me, the family, or just alone. 

She is plagued with self doubt and is very immature in a lot of ways. She didn't want to attend college, but chose that path over being kicked out, which was her only other option. 

Give a choice, I am sure she would sit in her room, work her 10-20 hours a week at her minimum wage job, and allow us to support her the rest of her life.


My son is the exact opposite. He and I are very close and we do lots of fun stuff together. In 2 month he and I are going to a driving clinic that will teach him accident avoidance skills. This is something we are both looking forward to and have planned an entire day around it. We tinker on classic cars, go to various car type events, airshow, museums, observatories, or sometimes nothing at all and just spend the day poodling through the country in a classic car. He is active in JuJitsu and has just earned his first advanced belt. 

He is driven, motivated and has a clear path for his future. He is willing to work for what he wants and doesn't expect anything to be handed to him. He knows his own mind and isn't easily swayed from what he believes and knows to be correct. 

I worry about my daughter. A lot. I have no worries about my son.



The problem with my daughter and I is that I gave her a choice. After 18 months of laying around and doing nothing after high-school, I told her she had to either start college or move out. Cajoling and encouraging her for 18 months hadn't worked so I was forced to move to stronger measures. At the time I had the backing of C2 on this. 

Since then I have been a non-entity in her life. The recent troubles have only strained that relationship further. 



I am, and always have been, the peacekeeper in the family. I don't get mad, I don't throw tantrums and I seek compromise. When family members are squabbling I am the moderator that get them to stop thinking emotionally and to start thinking logically. I look at both sides and point out wrong thinking and seek compromise. That roll has worked for years. 

Of course the daughter hates me now and refuses to even talk to me except in monosyllabic answers to direct questions. I could live with that, so long as she was fulfilling her end of the bargain. Go to school and pass her classes. 

I have often wondered what would have happened had I not started pushing all these changes. I was sexless, yes, but I had a measure of happiness otherwise. C2 and I were on good terms and got along well. So from a certain point of view, I can acknowledge that I DID cause all the problems our family is experiencing. Had I know it would lead to this, I would have just rode out the remaining years until C4 became an adult and then walked away. 

But I didn't. I thought I could fix the problem, like I fixed (nearly) every other problem, and I failed miserably. So now I am just battling through it until I can come out the other side.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Copper, wrt your daughter. Can I suggest that her disconnection from the family is a very unhealthy coping mechanism because the family itself causes her pain and discomfort.

My thought to improve your relationship with your daughter, thus gaining at least a small measure of persuasion over her choices, you find an activity you two can do and hopefully enjoy together. Perhaps you could hand her a list of nonprofits/charities where you two could volunteer your Sunday afternoons? Animal shelters are always looking for people to volunteer to come and walk the dogs. They offer training to volunteers and then they support your efforts. 

If you improve your relationship with your daughter, by finding a way to spend positive time together, her disconnect from her primary support system won't be as detrimental and her outlook on life will improve.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Copper, wrt your daughter. Can I suggest that her disconnection from the family is a very unhealthy coping mechanism because the family itself causes her pain and discomfort.
> 
> :
> :
> ...


You don't have to suggest it. I already know it. 

Pink... I have tried EVERYTHING. She loves dogs, the one constant in her life, but she won't walk the dog with me, nor will she feed or water him unless I remind her. Now, because I work with the dog so much, he's MY dog and he ignores her to be with me. It kills her that he prefers me to her, but she can't see WHY it's like that and refuses to listen to my suggestions on how to make it better. 

I can't get her to volunteer at a shelter or a vets office. Her excuse... she doesn't want to work where animals are killed. I had business cards printed up to help her get a dog walking business off the ground (during the 18 months after school). She couldn't be bothered to post them in vets offices and grocery stores.

I have offered to take her to the movies, both with the family, with just me, or just to go alone. I've offered to pick her up at her job and take her to lunch. Nope... would rather go home or stay at work. 

I have suggested she go out with friends, or stay at school after class and join a group and do something there. Instead, she drives the 45 minutes home, spends a couple of hours, then drives the 45 minutes back rather than just hang out at school between classes. 

I have invited her to do something with me, anything at all, that she wanted to do. She just looks at me and shakes her head until I say okay. 

The last time that she and I went anywhere alone was 3-4 years ago when I took her to a rodeo. I will mention that I hate rodeos, but we went and I made the best of it, and even have a picture of us sitting under an umbrella while it poured rain on us. 

Frankly, I've given up. She is going to have to meet me halfway because I have run out of ideas on how to draw her out. I never do anything that I don't invite her and her brother along. C4 tags along about 50% of the time... C3... never.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> You don't have to suggest it. I already know it.
> 
> Pink... I have tried EVERYTHING. She loves dogs, the one constant in her life, but she won't walk the dog with me, nor will she feed or water him unless I remind her. Now, because I work with the dog so much, he's MY dog and he ignores her to be with me. It kills her that he prefers me to her, but she can't see WHY it's like that and refuses to listen to my suggestions on how to make it better.
> 
> ...


Is she depressed?  

Is she overweight/socially awkward/lacking friends?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Is she depressed?
> 
> Is she overweight/socially awkward/lacking friends?


Probably.

No/yes/yes.

She's quite attractive and tall (about 5'10"), and even though she dresses like a slob, she says guys ask her out all the time while she is at work. 

But, and this is the part that drives me batty, she is SO critical and judgemental that nobody is good enough. I'm a typical Dad, and "nobody is good enough for my little girl," but in reality land, not one guy that has asked her out is good enough? Does it really matter what car they drive, that it's clean, that she overheard them say a "dirty" word, that they were eating in their car, that they smoked (okay, I can understand that one), or they had loud or rap music playing? That's just the excuses I can remember off the top of my head. The reason so much of this revolves around cars is she works at a car wash, greeting the customer, taking their order, and programming the machine.

I have tried to tell her not to be so judgemental, tried to help her with dressing better, and keeping her hair clean, and standing up straight and proud instead of slumping, and for god's sake, SMILE sometimes, but I get more response talking to the dog. 

She is twenty years old and has never been on a date, and she never have a date if she doesn't change how she presents herself and her attitudes. 

And before anyone suggests counseling, she has already been. It didn't do a thing EXCEPT kept her from joining the Air Force.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> Probably.
> 
> No/yes/yes.
> 
> ...


Awww, I feel bad for her . Could she be a closeted lesbian?

I have an awkward daughter, too (also beautiful/great body!), although not critical of others. Just herself.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> You don't have to suggest it. I already know it.


I don't think you do my man. If you would get off your high horse about your devotion and required sacrifice for the kids, you'd wake up, smell the coffee and realize you and your old lady have created a perpetual toxic environment that is fu-king up your kids. 
It ain't your devotion to the kids dawg. Its your addiction to your old lady that makes you willing to cashier everything in your life, kids included, to stay in near her. Face it CT, if she divorced you and run you off, you'd probably jump off a cliff.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Awww, I feel bad for her . Could she be a closeted lesbian?
> 
> I have an awkward daughter, too (also beautiful/great body!), although not critical of others. Just herself.



Thank you. I worry about her.

I don't know the answer to your question. How would I know? I hope not, though. I'm afraid C3 would come UNHINGED over that. 

Though she doesn't go to church much any more (also my fault) she still holds some deep religious beliefs. I know what she thinks of same sex couples, but I can't predict how she would react to having her daughter have a same sex partner.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Copper Copper Copper.... Why does your reply not surprise me. You present a problem, 5 people suggest solutions and you double down with 10 reasons why those solutions won't work.

Dude, she is your daughter and she didn't get to be this depressed, alienated and disconnected over night. No doubt all well meaning advice that has come your way over the years about ensuring a positive relationship with your kids has also met with you doubling down on reasons why those suggestions won't possibly work in your situation. 

Hey, come to think of it, that Apple didn't fall far from the tree did it? I mean every piece of well meaning advice you've given your daughter has also been met with her...doubling down on why it won't work for her. And thus we have the Copper Top family inertia. 

Well done Dad!


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Copper Copper Copper.... Why does your reply not surprise me. You present a problem, 5 people suggest solutions and you double down with 10 reasons why those solutions won't work.


Ok Anon, get ready for his response.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

I think the greatest thing my father ever did for me was showing me that it's not only ok, but also responsible, to stand up to a woman who is displaying completely unacceptable and abusive behavior and say " awe HELL no!".

Especially when she is holding the knife. 

CopperTop, your daughter has a role model, one that teaches her how she should act as a woman. Her role model would never consider a single word you have to say. Your thoughts and opinions are useless. After all, you are obviously not competant, as shown by her role model and confirmed by your acceptance of the verdict. 

Funny thing about that though... we teach our kids how to interact with others. They model us. And your daughter is modelling her interactions and views of men in the same way she sees her mother modelling her interactions with the most prevalent man in her life. 

Your son models your interactions too. If you don't fight the threats and accusations, you might as well accept them. So, would your son blame you for your wifes actions, or her? If he would blame you, then you can be sure that he will grow up accepting blame for the actions of others.


Your wife would punish your son just to hurt you and control you. 

I have to think, this must be what you want. You must think that your really are incapable of forging your own path and influencing your own life. In fact, I would think that you are so certain that you possess absolutely no ability to control your own outcome that you think you NEED your wife to dictate everything for you. Your son must see it too, or he would not ask you to roll over and take it.

Am I wrong? Are you not completely helpless?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Copper Copper Copper.... Why does your reply not surprise me. You present a problem, 5 people suggest solutions and you double down with 10 reasons why those solutions won't work.



The primary difference is, I tried lots of different stuff with C3. Here, almost without exception, its all the same advice. Attack, attack, attack, nuke her and damn the collateral damage. 

You want me to take your advice, advise something else. Always Alone (I think) and MEM did and I followed their advice. And it worked. It got me what I wanted. It got us into counseling. 

From there, it got worse, but I had no way to know that before I tried. While in counseling I did everything the counselor said I should do. She had a lot of suggestions and I liked her and her no BS approach. C2 didn't like her and resisted at every turn, and the harder the counselor leaned on her to "try," the more recalcitrant she became. 

Finally the counselor suggested that perhaps we should go our own ways. C2 came unglued and that is when she dragged out all those old accusations that I thought we had long since gotten past. 

I was excused from the room and I could hear C2 shouting at the counselor. When that was over, I was called back into the room and was told C2 was going to be counseled individually for a while.

The counselor asked me to stay and we talked a bit. She said that C2 "needed help" and it was going to get bad and she asked if I was prepared for that? I told her I was.

When I got home, C2 had informed the kids I was leaving. Naturally everyone was quite upset, but I sat them down and told them I wasn't going anywhere and got the situation under control. I confronted C2 and there was a big argument over it because I NEVER said I was planning on leaving and I didn't like her putting words in my mouth.

Five weeks later, we were fired. The counselor said we needed to find a way to work out our differences, and there was nothing she could do for us. I don't know exactly what was said over the five weeks, but I know that C2 became increasingly distant and bitter.

I had to do some thinking about what I was going to do. C4 and I talked and that is when he spilled the beans about the school. I assured him that he wouldn't be taken out of school then I confront C2 about it. That's when she gave me the song and dance about not being able to trust me, blah, blah, blah.

Since then, things have been pretty quite. C2 ignores me and spends hours playing her game. I've stopped pushing for change and ask nothing from her. I make sure the household continues to function with some semblance of normally and she seems content to let things run like this for a while. 

So, Pink, it's not that I don't want or take advice. It's just that I'm not willing to take the advice that could so easily go wrong.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> I think the greatest thing my father ever did for me was showing me that it's not only ok, but also responsible, to stand up to a woman who is displaying completely unacceptable and abusive behavior and say " awe HELL no!".
> 
> Especially when she is holding the knife.


Well, that's a little different. It would not be wise for her to threaten the children with a knife. I would kill her on the spot.

To threaten me with a knife would result in one of us spending the night in jail then immediate divorce proceedings. 

But right now, it is just words, and that is the stick and stones thing. 




As'laDain said:


> CopperTop, your daughter has a role model, one that teaches her how she should act as a woman. Her role model would never consider a single word you have to say. Your thoughts and opinions are useless. After all, you are obviously not competant, as shown by her role model and confirmed by your acceptance of the verdict.


Yep. But my not even being around to try to counter that helps improve that situation how? 

Do you know why we have a dog? Because C3 wanted one. He had a dog before, my dog, and he and I were buddies. When he passed, I didn't want another dog because I was tired of all the care and feeding. 

But C3 moped and begged until I finally agreed that we could go look for another dog, but we all had to agree on the dog and I wasn't taking care of it. 

When we got to the pound I didn't see any dog I wanted, but the entire time I was reminding C2 that we agreed that no dog unless we all agreed, she was filling out the paper work.

So now we have a dog. And I put my foot down and refused to walk him, feed him, water him, anything. But, when he became destructive, and wasn't being care for properly, I couldn't stand it anymore and stepped in and took over. Why? Because it wasn't fair to the dog. He didn't ask to come live with us.

Did it weaken me? Yes, probably. But I couldn't stand making the dog pay the price for something he didn't do and had no control over.





As'laDain said:


> Funny thing about that though... we teach our kids how to interact with others. They model us. And your daughter is modelling her interactions and views of men in the same way she sees her mother modelling her interactions with the most prevalent man in her life.
> 
> Your son models your interactions too. If you don't fight the threats and accusations, you might as well accept them. So, would your son blame you for your wifes actions, or her? If he would blame you, then you can be sure that he will grow up accepting blame for the actions of others.


I understand what you are saying. I did fight the accusations. I've proven with my actions that she told them a big fat fib. I told them I never said I was leaving and their mother was mistaken. 

I'm not clear why flying off the handle and storming out is a better solution than telling them their mother is mistaken and then proving it with action. I know that I put much more stock in reasoned argument than bluster.





As'laDain said:


> Your wife would punish your son just to hurt you and control you.


The thing is, C2 didn't tell me that. Had C4 not told me, I wouldn't have even known. Maybe she told him hoping he would tell me. But I honestly believe she said that to him not to "hurt" me or to keep me in line, but because she really believes that if I leave I will abandon my kids. 

Currently I do 50% of the picking up and dropping off so she doesn't have to carry the entire load. If I were to move out, I would move 45-60 minutes away to reduce my commute to work. She knows that because I don't like living so far from work but I do so C2 has a nice easy 10 minute commute. 

Because of that, she didn't want to get stuck having to shuttle him to school all the time because it would make her late in the morning every morning, and press her to have to hurry in the afternoon.





As'laDain said:


> I have to think, this must be what you want. You must think that your really are incapable of forging your own path and influencing your own life. In fact, I would think that you are so certain that you possess absolutely no ability to control your own outcome that you think you NEED your wife to dictate everything for you. Your son must see it too, or he would not ask you to roll over and take it.
> 
> Am I wrong? Are you not completely helpless?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am trapped at the moment by circumstances. If it were not for the kids, this may have ended long, long, ago. 

Everyone says I should nuke her. The thing about nuclear weapons is they kill a lot of innocent people. I'm not ready to do that yet. 

If it were just C1 & C2 in this, I would be typing this from my apartment as I waited for the 1-year wait to run out so I can file for divorce. But I don't have that option right now. 

I wanted to make this work. I have tried my best to make it work. Up until the counselor fired us and said (without saying) there was no hope of saving the marriage, I was willing to work on it. 

So now I'm just waiting it out while trying to make the best of it. And that was the point of this thread. Sometimes there is a lot more going on than people realize. Sometimes the answer isn't as clear as it seems. 

It's easy to say, "Nuke her" when it's not your family that is going to be hurt.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Don't misunderstand me please. I am not invested in MY advice. I have an opinion I share it. I have suggestions I give them. What you do with them or don't do with my opinions or suggestions is not my concern. 

The Air Force took my nephew who had been in therapy but wasn't currently in therapy.

Do you even read what you write?

You've arranged your entire life to accommodate your wife. And now being the martyr is uncomfortable. Yup, sucks to be you.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Regardless of what anyone thinks you should do, you are clearly in a difficult position. I wish the best for you and your children.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening CT
how sure are you that your wife didn't abuse your children? Her threats of accusing you, and your daughter's withdrawal are concerning.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening CT
> how sure are you that your wife didn't abuse your children? Her threats of accusing you, and your daughter's withdrawal are concerning.



I can't be 100% sure of course, but I think it highly unlikely she abused them, either emotionally or physically.

I worry about the daughter too. Even though C3 didn't want to go, I sent her to my mother for a week so she could talk to her and maybe find out what was eating her and give me a hint. Grandma threw up her hands in frustration and said she didn't understand C3 at all. I quote, "I've never met anyone like her."

C3 has NO drive at all. All she wants to do is sit in her room and play on her computer. She doesn't want to work, doesn't want to go to school, doesn't want to have friends, doesn't want to go anywhere or do anything. I've thought about taking her computer away, but she needs it for school, so that is out. 

The only reason she works and goes to school is she is/was afraid of being thrown out. Of course, C2 undermined that recently and I haven't been able to fully correct that. C3 is going back to school, but I have a feeling that more failing grades are in her future because she giving me the "yeah, whatever" attitude. 

I can only help her so much. She has to want to help herself.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> The Air Force took my nephew who had been in therapy but wasn't currently in therapy.



What can I say? She was in. All she had to do was pass the physical. Because she had been in therapy, they had to send her results somewhere else for evaluation. 

We even included a letter from the same doctor that had treated her before, that said he examined her again (2 years later) and she was perfectly normal now. 

After a very long wait, she was rejected for medical reasons. We called the recruiter and asked him. He basically said that because of the economy, the armed services had more applications than they needed, and after the shooting at Fort Bragg, even a whiff of mental issues is enough to get you disqualified because there were a 100 more in line behind you.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I can't be 100% sure of course, but I think it highly unlikely she abused them, either emotionally or physically.
> 
> I worry about the daughter too. Even though C3 didn't want to go, I sent her to my mother for a week so she could talk to her and maybe find out what was eating her and give me a hint. Grandma threw up her hands in frustration and said she didn't understand C3 at all. I quote, "I've never met anyone like her."
> 
> ...




Sounds like depression to me.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

You can't be serious? Your daughter sounds like a close match to your "wife." Your wife just wants you to leave her alone to play her video games, so does your daughter. 

You can't be sure that your wife didn't abuse your children? Oh lawd, you are one of the most deliberately blind people I have ever met. You both are abusing your children. You claim that you're staying to keep a "normal " life for the kids but what you have is anything but normal. Every day that these two kids live with the likes of you two has got to be pure hell. 

You claim you don't want to nuke the marriage because of collateral damage, but you don't mind if the enemy (aka the lady that your married to) poisons the two innocents that you're trying to protect. You turn a blind eye to that, and climb on your high horse, bragging about keeping the peace. Smh


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

I keep reading this because,


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> Sounds like depression to me.


that sounds about right. after all, who WOULDNT be depressed in her situation...


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Salvation for these kids would not come from the man and the wife in this story getting a divorce from each other. But rather by the kids divorcing these two clowns,changing their names and getting as far away as possible. I'm waiting for the next episode of "Married with children, _We make the Bundy's look good_", version. The author of the story is probably having a hell of a good time with this.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I can only help her so much. She has to want to help herself.


CT, this goes for you, too. You have to want to help yourself before your life can change.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Salvation for these kids would not come from the man and the wife in this story getting a divorce from each other. But rather by the kids divorcing these two clowns,changing their names and getting as far away as possible. I'm waiting for the next episode of "Married with children, _We make the Bundy's look good_", version. The author of the story is probably having a hell of a good time with this.


Pheonix... you have been quite a harsh critic of mine for a while, so I'm curious. Exactly how do you think a typical day goes in my family? Do you see us screaming at each other all the time? C2 making sniping remarks? What?

I think you and others must have a skewed idea of what my, and my kids, lives are like day to day. I am curious what you think a typical day, say today, a Saturday, is like. If you wouldn't mind taking the time to type up a thumbnail, I would like to see how you see me and my family.

Thank you.

Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

lucy999 said:


> CT, this goes for you, too. You have to want to help yourself before your life can change.



I know. But at the moment, I am the least of my concerns.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I would like to see how you see me and my family.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Copper


Ok Dawg, first of all, and for the record, I take what you say with several grains of salt but I have to admit that sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
Now, how do I see you and your family? Just from some of the things you wrote, (in this thread alone) you tell me what you would think if you were reading it:

_The reaction to that by C2 was, as I expected, very harsh and violent, and it wrecked our marriage.

Because I dread standing in court and defending myself against accusations of serial raping my wife for twenty years.

She has already ruined my relationship with my daughter. My daughter will no longer stay alone with me because she is "afraid of what I might do.

It's not that I'm so much afraid of her as I'm afraid of what she will do to the kids.

She told him that if I left she wouldn't agree to return him to his school.

Same thing with the molesting my daughter. Old accusation brought up again.

C4 asked me to please(!) stay and not risk having his mom carry out her threat. I agreed.

To prevent C4 from carrying out her threat (if she chose to do so) I would have to convince a judge, somewhere, to issue a stay, of some kind, to prevent C2 from moving her son from one school to another despite a contract that we all signed saying that she could.
So why antagonize her and risk making a volatile situation even worse?

That started a cascade of problems that I'm dealing with now as C2 & C3 battle it out over school, complete with slamming doors and saying things that I KNOW they are both going to regret when they calm down.

Of course the daughter hates me now and refuses to even talk to me except in monosyllabic answers to direct questions.

She said that C2 "needed help" and it was going to get bad and she asked if I was prepared for that?

I sent her to my mother for a week so she could talk to her and maybe find out what was eating her and give me a hint. Grandma threw up her hands in frustration and said she didn't understand C3 at all. I quote, "I've never met anyone like her."
_

And to top it off, the counselor kicked you two to the curb. So a highly trained professional can't do anything with you two and threw in the towel.

_Five weeks later, we were fired. The counselor said we needed to find a way to work out our differences, and there was nothing she could do for us._

So my man, I'll say it again. If this "family situation" is accurately depicted by you, (which I am highly skeptical) you and your wife are fu-king up your kids with you outrageously dysfunctional interaction with each other. The sad thing is it will continue because in spite of the mounds of evidence to the contrary, you think you're doing the right thing.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Ok Dawg, first of all, and for the record, I take what you say with several grains of salt but I have to admit that sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
> Now, how do I see you and your family? Just from some of the things you wrote, (in this thread alone) you tell me what you would think if you were reading it:
> 
> _The reaction to that by C2 was, as I expected, very harsh and violent, and it wrecked our marriage.
> ...



All the above is very true. But that isn't what it's like every day, or even most days. Those things are exceptions.

Today... I got up and C4 and I took my car in for service. He drove because he is a student driver and I am teaching him to drive a stick.

After that I washed both cars and tried to determine why the door on the van stopped working. I couldn't so Monday I will set an appointment to take it in for repair.

C1, C2 & C4 had lunch. C3 is working and didn't come home. C1 & C2 talked to C4, but not each other.

I cleaned house and did laundry. 

C4 mowed the yard.

I just returned from walking the dog.

As soon as I'm done here, C4 & are going to watch a movie and have a milkshake. 


That's my day. So yes, all that stuff happened. C2 flies off the handle when provoked and says things that she shouldn't. Always has. In the past she apologized for it and we moved on. 

But it's not like that around here often. Had I not provoked her into attending counseling, and then the counselor told her that she we should go out separate ways, none of that would have happened. But that is past now. I think she really thought I was leaving because I didn't immediately jump to the defense of the marriage... mostly because I was trying to wrap my mind around what the counselor was saying. Before I could formulate my thoughts, C2 unloaded on her.

Yes, a professional kicked us to the curb. That was very disappointing. Up until then I was trying my best to make it work. I did everything I was asked to do by the counselor, but it takes two to make it work. C2 never liked the counselor from the beginning, so she dug in and refused to even try. That's what she does. If she doesn't want to do something, the more you try to move her, the more she digs in. That's why I kept saying, ultimatums won't work with her. Now, I ask for nothing, and expect nothing.

l do worry about the kids. I'm worried what she will tell them if I did leave. She already told them that if I left, it was because I didn't love them (C2, 3 & 4) and only thought of myself. But I'm still here and I think (hope) that crises is past. But if I were to leave, all I have done, in my mind, is strengthen her case that she was right. 

I do believe C2 would pull C4 from school... not so much to hurt me, but because she doesn't think she has any other choice. I think she really believes that if leave she alone wilher employer why she can't be at work on time. When I confronted her after I found out, that was, when you get right down to it, what she gave as the reason. She didn't think I would help her.

Now our day to day interactions are cool, but cordial. She pretty much ignores me and I ignore her, but I do interact with the rest of the family. C3 and I don't get along, and she occasionally says nasty things to me, but I'm doing the best I can with her. 

In hindsight, I should have never started this. I should have accepted what enjoyment I had and learned to live with it. But I got greedy and ruined what I had. If I had to do over, I wouldn't have pushed her, not until the kids were grown and out of the house. 

But that's the way of life... live and learn. Now I'm trying to make the best of a bad situation, but it isn't nearly as bad as you think it is.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

Omg, I can just imagine the feelings of love radiating from you and c2. 

I guess you've never been around two people that hate each other. There's no doubt in my mind that the tension is brutal. I don't blame your daughter for staying in her room, depressed. Being around a control freak psycho of a mom and a spineless, martyr father that won't defend anyone, especially his own flesh and blood is enough to depress anyone.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

I had a pretty typical Saturday as well. I got up, my wife and son were up. My wife said "good morning dear, would you like your breakfast now or later?" We kissed and hugged and told her I'd love breakfast as soon as I showered. I showered and as I sat down she brought me a plate. She kissed me again and asked if I needed anything else. I said "No beautiful, thank you so much for breakfast." We held hands and hugged on more than one occasion. Our son was happy and content....because we are happy and content. Not every day is like this but 99 our of a 100 are.

Do you think your kids are too stupid or blind to not see what's going on? And to see you acting as if everything is normal and typical sets in their mind that is how marriage should be. These kids have a long haul ahead of them and you're making that one hell of a heavy load for them. But you just as well stay and take your beatings, it's too late for you or your kids.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Sbrown said:


> Omg, I can just imagine the feelings of love radiating from you and c2.
> 
> I guess you've never been around two people that hate each other. There's no doubt in my mind that the tension is brutal. I don't blame your daughter for staying in her room, depressed. Being around a control freak psycho of a mom and a spineless, martyr father that won't defend anyone, especially his own flesh and blood is enough to depress anyone.


I don't hate C2. There is no animosity between us, at least from me. I speak to her when I need to, or if she speaks to me. I'm not snarly or snarky and I speak to her with, if not tenderness, at least respect. I help her when she needs it. If she asks me for something, I provide it if I can. But she asks for nothing and I offer nothing. So long as I leave her alone, she seems content and happy. 

It's sad that this is what we've come to. But what else is there? I leave, then what? Nothing changes much for the kids except that I'm not home each night, and what their mother said about me, that I was going to leave them, has come true. If I leave after I promised them I wouldn't, why would they believe anything I say? 




Sbrown said:


> I had a pretty typical Saturday as well. I got up, my wife and son were up. My wife said "good morning dear, would you like your breakfast now or later?" We kissed and hugged and told her I'd love breakfast as soon as I showered. I showered and as I sat down she brought me a plate. She kissed me again and asked if I needed anything else. I said "No beautiful, thank you so much for breakfast." We held hands and hugged on more than one occasion. Our son was happy and content....because we are happy and content. Not every day is like this but 99 our of a 100 are.
> 
> Do you think your kids are too stupid or blind to not see what's going on? And to see you acting as if everything is normal and typical sets in their mind that is how marriage should be. These kids have a long haul ahead of them and you're making that one hell of a heavy load for them. But you just as well stay and take your beatings, it's too late for you or your kids.


No, they are not stupid. They know C2 and I are having problems. I've told them that myself. I've also told them that it doesn't have anything to do with them and that they can depend on me to be there for them. I'm willing to try to fix the problems, but C2 has to try to meet me at least part-way. I've left that door open for her but she has thus far chosen not to step through it. 


It sounds like you have a wonderful life. I wish you and yours many more years of happiness.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

I do, I'm truly blessed but it hasn't always been thus way. My wife's drive fell off after our son was born. I tolerated it as long as I could, but finally told my wife that i would not stay in a marriage without love. My son deserves better. I would have left, she knew I would and WE changed. 

If you left, your kids would have a safe place to go to get away from their crazy ass mother. If you told them "I know I said I wouldn't leave your mother but our happiness is worth more than this." Your kids should know that things change and that when you told them that you meant it but you can't do it yourself. You can't continue to put this pressure on them. 

And your kids could chose to come live with you. Hell you could get the house. It's not uncommon this day and age.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> kristin... I direct this comment to you. This is exactly the type of post that I was talking about. You are SO SURE you are right, that you never consider that there may be more going on than you know.
> 
> The reason I can't leave? Because I dread standing in court and defending myself against accusations of serial raping my wife for twenty years. I don't want to have to explain why I'm not a child molester. I don't want to have to try explain away her accusations of me having one affair after another. I don't want to spend god knows how much money to try to break out of a marriage when she is spending god know how much money to keep me locked in. The kids that used to carpool with my son no longer want to continue that relationship though it was beneficial for all involved.
> 
> ...


Sometimes, no doubt we've got to walk around in here on eggshells. Sometimes, if someone offers advice, and it differs than most or differs from those here with longevity... prepare to have to defend your advice. Trolling gets a free pass here. It's the easiest to give advice, especially when someone does'nt have to deal with the consequences. 

I've seen plenty of advice of just leaving the relationship, which is always the easiest option and that is why it is so tempting. But I've also seen some very good advice. It all comes down to your personal choices depending on what is really going on in your life. Marriage problems take time to develop, sometimes years to manage, years to solve and sometimes members here want to solve it in 1 night with a few posts of advice. Then turn to ridicule for you having chosen a different path. 

Whatever the case, don't allow negative comments and reactions to cast a shadow on the positive goals of these forums.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

"I don't hate c2." This statement and the fact that youre are "willing to fix the problems" to me proves you need serious professional help. She is a person that judging by your statements would rather you be in jail than to leave her. She would make accusations that at worst will have you thrown in jail, at best smear your name to anyone that will listen. Do your kids and yourself a favor and seek intense professional help.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Sbrown said:


> "I don't hate c2." This statement and the fact that youre are "willing to fix the problems" to me proves you need serious professional help. She is a person that judging by your statements would rather you be in jail than to leave her. She would make accusations that at worst will have you thrown in jail, at best smear your name to anyone that will listen. Do your kids and yourself a favor and seek intense professional help.



I don't hate C2. Hate is just a negative emotion, why would I do that? If she can't be happy with me, I wish her all the happiness in the world with someone else, or alone if she prefers. Being nasty improves my situation not at all, and would probably make it worse, so why do it? 

I am willing to work it out. It's not too late. If C2 were to come to me and admit that we have problems, and really work to try to fix them, why wouldn't I try? Just to punish her because she called me some names in anger? The difference now is I'm done being the one pushing her. I've tried my best to make this better on my own, but I failed. If she decides she wants to improve things, then I'm willing to try as well, but she is going to have to make the first move. 

If she doesn't, then so be it. I just have to ride these remaining years out until one of us dies or the only person I have worry about hurting is me. We've reached a stable point where one of the kids seems happy and I can make it work. To be honest, there isn't that much difference between now and the last 3-4 years. The primary difference is I no longer kiss her hello and goodbye, I no longer try to draw her out to engage her in conversation, and I no longer caresses her when we go to bed. She still turns her back to me, but instead of my caressing her back, I roll my back to her, and we go to sleep. 

After a several minute pause, thinking, I can really think of no other major changes to how we interact, other than we don't laugh as much as we did. That's the really sad part, and I think that sums up how I feel the best. Saddened and disappointed that I'm nothing more to her than a checkbook and a person to help with the chores and child rearing. 

Everyone keeps saying that I need professional help. When I spoke to the counselor one on one, she didn't seem to think there was anything wrong with me. She thought I had a great attitude and that we could fix the problems in our marriage. That was before she really had a chance to talk to C2, but even after she did, she didn't pull me aside and tell me I was a total loser... and she could have. She pulled C2 aside and spoke with her at length. Seems to me that if I were the problem, she would have at least offered the same to me.


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I know. But at the moment, I am the least of my concerns.


Wow. Your view of your self worth is that low?

If you can't take care of you, how do you expect to take care of someone else?



CopperTop said:


> No, they are not stupid. They know C2 and I are having problems. I've told them that myself. I've also told them that it doesn't have anything to do with them and that they can depend on me to be there for them.


AAHHHHH.

Dude.

*THEY ARE KIDS*

doesn't matter what you tell them - they are going to blame themselves for their situation.

OMG

So much fail in this

I refuse to believe that you are this willfully obtuse.

Your kids need counseling.

You. You need major therapy. You need to get out. You need to get help.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

In the real world this is a classic example of someone hiding behind their kids because of their addiction to their spouse. 
It always perplexing to hear parents say they will protect their children against an army but cast them to the wolves to avoid effectively dealing with a destructive/abusive spouse.
I'll say it again as plain as I can. I think this story is embellished at a minimum.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> In the real world this is a classic example of someone hiding behind their kids because of their addiction to their spouse.
> It always perplexing to hear parents say they will protect their children against an army but cast them to the wolves to avoid effectively dealing with a destructive/abusive spouse.
> *I'll say it again as plain as I can. I think this story is embellished at a minimum.*





:iagree::iagree:

The OP has shown he isn't looking for advice and isn't going to rock the Titanic, so what is the point here? Yet when his threads get locked or people tire of posting on them, Mrs. CT appears and rants, and it all starts up again:scratchhead:


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

kristin2349 said:


> ...when his threads get locked or people tire of posting on them, Mrs. CT appears and rants, and it all starts up again:scratchhead:


I had a sudden vision of Norman Bates dressed up like his mother looking out of the second story window!!


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

kristin2349 said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> :iagree::iagree:
> ...


He might not have found the best advice for his situation, there are an infinite approaches to his dilema. Feeling like he is wasting his time in his marriage in addition to wasting his time seeking advice isn't going to help him or any of us coming here to just to read. This can be just one source of advice for him where he has several other sources. 

I can't relate to his situation and I dont know enough to help I'm sure. But at the very least, I learn a lot about a significant amount of views and opinions. It's all valuable information whether the advice is put to use now, later, or never. His circumstance was informative, as well as everyone else's advice. To make him feel he is wasting time posting and making others feel they too are wasting thier time giving advice would close a door that I, and many others who just simply read, gain infinite knowledge from. 

I hope to never find myself in his circumstance but if I did, I would later remember some of the advice you offered as well as the advice from others. So remember, just because this guy hasn't taken your advice or anyone else's... that doesnt mean no one else has. I for one have learned a lot in this posting and I place the credit on those GIVING the advice, not the one's seeking it.

Keep up the good work.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> You don't have to suggest it. I already know it.
> 
> Pink... I have tried EVERYTHING. She loves dogs, the one constant in her life, but she won't walk the dog with me, nor will she feed or water him unless I remind her. Now, because I work with the dog so much, he's MY dog and he ignores her to be with me. It kills her that he prefers me to her, but she can't see WHY it's like that and refuses to listen to my suggestions on how to make it better.



Wait, she buries her head in the sand and ignores good advice even though it keeps her from what she wants? Oh yeah, takes right after her mother. Lol. And you've tried EVERYTHING! Haha, right. You mean you've ignored and given excuses for everything.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

I am NOT all caught up on this. But, is there any reason why you can't rent a two or three bedroom apartment, close to your work and your son's school, and you and he BOTH move out and live there? Tell your daughter what you are doing, and let her know she can choose to keep living with her mom, or move out with you and her brother, provided she keeps going to school.

Then you've made it clear to everyone that you have no intention of leaving the children, nor do you intend to pull your son out of his special school.

Also, I would see a lawyer to find out how valid the school's enrollment agreement is, and if there is anything you can legally arrange in advance to prevent your wife's tantrum from ruining your son's education.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Apexmale said:


> This can be just one source of advice for him where he has several other sources.


Admittedly, our boy CT didn't come here seeking advice. He said in his opening post he had waved the white flag and accepted where he's ended up.



CopperTop said:


> First, I am no longer seeking advice to improve my situation. That train has long since left the station. Second, I accept responsibility for my situation and I blame no one other than myself. I understand that everyone here gave the best advice they could, did so in good faith, and I harbor no grudges.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Apexmale said:


> Sometimes, no doubt we've got to walk around in here on eggshells. Sometimes, if someone offers advice, and it differs than most or differs from those here with longevity... prepare to have to defend your advice. Trolling gets a free pass here. It's the easiest to give advice, especially when someone does'nt have to deal with the consequences.
> 
> I've seen plenty of advice of just leaving the relationship, which is always the easiest option and that is why it is so tempting. But I've also seen some very good advice. It all comes down to your personal choices depending on what is really going on in your life. Marriage problems take time to develop, sometimes years to manage, years to solve and sometimes members here want to solve it in 1 night with a few posts of advice. Then turn to ridicule for you having chosen a different path.
> 
> Whatever the case, don't allow negative comments and reactions to cast a shadow on the positive goals of these forums.


The negative comments and reactions DO cast a shadow on the positive goals of these forums. And they do absolutely no good. People have to make their own choices and do what is best fir them. Just because we may not agree does not mean they are wrong and we are right. 

The posters point of this thread was not to seek advice, but to simply say that posters on this forum know their own situations best, and should follow their guts, not the "gang up on them reactions" from people who only have a very tiny picture of the real problem, but still think they know exactly what course of action will solve the problem. And then get mad when their advice is not taken.

Forums like this are helpful in that people can throw out insights, different ways to look at situations that the posters may not have considered. They are also helpful in helping others know they are not alone or the only one experiencing something like what they are experiencing. 

I understand why people get frustrated with situations like CopperTops. I am frustrated by it. What his wife has done, is doing, is awful, to say the least. (What we. THINK she has done or is doing ] We all want her to be held accountable - to stop doing what she is doing. Most of us would love to see her family stand up to her and not let her get away with her controlling tactics. None of us know her, what she is really like, how she really is, yet we have judged, convicted, and sentenced her - me included. Which is the unfortunate nature of these forums. 

If we truly want to help others, we should try to step out of our own emotions and frustrations and only give our advice, our ideas, our perspective, share our own experiences, give empathy, etc., without beating up the posters because they don't do what WE think they should. 

I am guilty of doing this myself. It's hard for me, especially when I see situations like this one where it seems so wrong that one person in the relationship seems to have all the control over their family members and is hurting them. I want reason and justice to fix it. But life and people are not always that simple. And bottom line - I am not an expert or a professional, nor do I KNOW the solutions to anyone else's problems. Nor does anyone else here on this forum. 

My rambling point - let's stop attacking the posters and stick to trying to help them. If we are frustrated with the poster than WE should simply stop responding to their threads,instead of of trying to berate them into submission. Which happens way too often on these kinds of forums.

End of rant!


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> I don't hate C2. Hate is just a negative emotion, why would I do that? If she can't be happy with me, I wish her all the happiness in the world with someone else, or alone if she prefers. Being nasty improves my situation not at all, and would probably make it worse, so why do it?
> 
> I am willing to work it out. It's not too late. If C2 were to come to me and admit that we have problems, and really work to try to fix them, why wouldn't I try? Just to punish her because she called me some names in anger? The difference now is I'm done being the one pushing her. I've tried my best to make this better on my own, but I failed. If she decides she wants to improve things, then I'm willing to try as well, but she is going to have to make the first move.
> 
> ...


Professional help can help you deal with your situation in more healthy or productive ways, it is not always about fixing you. It can be a huge support for some.

Your situation is not just about C2 anymore. Now there are other family dynamics going on. Professional help may be very useful in those dynamics.

For example, It might be useful in helping you work out things with your daughter if you attend with her. It also may be useful in having her go by herself - because as you said she is the one that has to make the effort to help herself. It seems she may not know how to do that and, like many young adults, won't listen to her parents. Professionals can be very helpful with situations like hers.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

mary35 said:


> The negative comments and reactions DO cast a shadow on the positive goals of these forums. And they do absolutely no good. People have to make their own choices and do what is best fir them. Just because we may not agree does not mean they are wrong and we are right.
> 
> The posters point of this thread was not to seek advice, but to simply say that posters on this forum know their own situations best, and should follow their guts, not the "gang up on them reactions" from people who only have a very tiny picture of the real problem, but still think they know exactly what course of action will solve the problem. And then get mad when their advice is not taken.
> 
> ...


Excellent!


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

Does C4 have friends and a normal teenage life? It seems like the dysfunction in your family has kept both your kids from developing normal relationships with peers.

Is C2 eating healthy and exercising?

C4 is almost of legal driving age. Why can't he drive himself to school as soon as he turns 16?

C3 sounds as if she is very depressed. There is more to her mental health situation than you are sharing. Why aren't you having her evaluated for depression? If you and C2 can not even function as proper parents to set the proper path for C3, you should not be together. It sounds like C4 has some of both of your tendencies. He wants you to give in to C2's demands, and is selfish like C2 in only caring about what he wants. (to stay at his school)

In the end, there is no judge that is going to be ok with C2 removing the child from the school he loves, and is in his best interest to attend. 

I got very invested in your previous threads. I'm sorry to see you still making excuses and acting as if staying with your abusive wife is good for your kids. You are modeling the worst possible behavior, and your kids are suffering every day. 

Let's all remember that before she tortured the kids, C2 never once touched poor CT's penis in the entire time they have been married. The poor man has never had a blow job. I think the lack of proper sex has shut off part of his brain.

I have this vision CT leaving his wife, finding a nice lady who likes to have sex and treats him nicely. His kids see this, and the daughter realizes that it is possible to be happy, and his son sees a women treat his Dad well, and knows that's what he wants in his life.

This can all happen if CT stops making excuses.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> Does C4 have friends and a normal teenage life? It seems like the dysfunction in your family has kept both your kids from developing normal relationships with peers.


Yes. he had friends that come over for gaming (strategy type board games) and he is active in Ju Jitsu. He is popular at school and I have noticed girls flirting and paying attention to him. I would say he is as normal as most kids. 




Workathome said:


> Is C2 eating healthy and exercising?


Yes. Down 30 pounds since the first of the year. I'm glad/proud for her and I hope she keeps it up. I was asking her every day what her weight was, cheering when it was down, encouraging her when it was up or even. Now, I'm much ashamed to say, I don't ask as often and I'm not so enthusiastic or sympathetic. 

I should be trying more to help her, but it's so hard to feel anything other than indifference.




Workathome said:


> C4 is almost of legal driving age. Why can't he drive himself to school as soon as he turns 16?


No car for one thing, but I suppose he could. He could drop his mom at work, and pick her up after school. The hours would work, and then C2 wouldn't have to worry about taking him. That's actually a pretty good idea, if C2 is willing to give up her car during the day.

The problem is going to be if C2 can't/won't give up her car. I didn't buy C3 a car and if we get one for C4, that is just going to reinforce the jealousy she feels towards him. She already thinks we favor him, even though it isn't true. Had she put in the effort he has, she would have been given the same opportunities that he has had.

Editing to add: The more I think about this, the better I like the idea. I will give him MY car to use for the day. He will have to leave 2.5 hours early for school to take me to work, but he can go from here straight to school. He will still be there very early in the morning, but in the afternoon he could go home for a few hours then come and get me. The only downside is he will have to drop out of Ju Jitsu because he won't be able to get home in time from picking me up to attend.... unless I slide my hours the other way somehow.

I need to work out some details with my company, but if C4 is willing to make the sacrifice, and I can get buy in from my boss, then I will talk to C2 about it. That removes her primary complaint and gives me a little breathing room to work with. 

I feel kind of stupid for not thinking of it myself. Thanks for the useful advice!




Workathome said:


> C3 sounds as if she is very depressed. There is more to her mental health situation than you are sharing. Why aren't you having her evaluated for depression?


We did. This isn't a new problem. It has gotten worse, but the hiding in the room has been going on for a while. The doctor talked to her for several weeks and declared her "normal" and suffering only from "teen angst" and she would grow out of it. That was 2-3 years ago.

This was the same evaluation that went into her medical charts and prevented her from joining the Air Force.




Workathome said:


> If you and C2 can not even function as proper parents to set the proper path for C3, you should not be together.


I'm doing the best I can. There is no real reason for her to act this way, despite what everyone thinks. C2 and I are not each other's throats all the time. If you work in a office, C2 and I are like officemates. We are polite and cordial, but just like I don't spend a lot of time chatting with my officemates, nor are the conversations very personal, same with C2. 




Workathome said:


> It sounds like C4 has some of both of your tendencies. He wants you to give in to C2's demands, and is selfish like C2 in only caring about what he wants. (to stay at his school)


I think you are unfair to him. He expressed his desire to remain where he is, with his friends, in a school he likes. I suspect all teens are the same way. If asked, I bet nearly 100% would express the desire to not change schools in their high school years. 




Workathome said:


> In the end, there is no judge that is going to be ok with C2 removing the child from the school he loves, and is in his best interest to attend.


And if she said, "I'm sorry your Honor, but I can't miss work every morning to take him to school," you don't think that is going to carry some weight? I don't see any judge dictating that C2 has to jeopardize her job so that C4 can attend an optional school. 

I think, in the end, that is why she said what she said. That was the reason she gave me anyway, that she didn't think I would be around to help her carry the load. I guess I can see that point of view. I suppose if I were to break one of the most basic promises a man can make, then every other promise must also be suspect. I wouldn't do it, but I suppose I could see how that might at least enter into someone's mind. 

Had she not screwed up the carpooling arrangement we had, this wouldn't be such an issue because she only had to pickup in the afternoon. It was a tight squeeze, but it was doable twice a week, when I handled the other three. 

Now it's a mess and it makes it really tough on me. My boss is being very generous by allowing me to time shift my mornings and work from home until I can drop him off. 




Workathome said:


> I got very invested in your previous threads. I'm sorry to see you still making excuses and acting as if staying with your abusive wife is good for your kids. You are modeling the worst possible behavior, and your kids are suffering every day.
> 
> Let's all remember that before she tortured the kids, C2 never once touched poor CT's penis in the entire time they have been married. The poor man has never had a blow job. I think the lack of proper sex has shut off part of his brain.


Nah... you can't miss what you never had. 

Thank you for your thoughtful and kind advice, and if I thought I could leave without making the situation worse, I would. But I'm afraid to push anymore because every time I have, the situation has deteriorated further. 

I pushed until I got what I wanted, counseling, and that turned into an unmitigated disaster. Where things worked best, and everyone seemed happiest, was when C2 and I were like any normal married couple, save the lack of sex. So I'm drawing the line here. No more. I won't make this situation worse, and I believe it is possible, if not likely, that it will get worse if I continue to push. For now, the words of the day are "do no more harm."




Workathome said:


> I have this vision CT leaving his wife, finding a nice lady who likes to have sex and treats him nicely. His kids see this, and the daughter realizes that it is possible to be happy, and his son sees a women treat his Dad well, and knows that's what he wants in his life.
> 
> This can all happen if CT stops making excuses.


What a nice vision of the future. To have someone that actually (physically) wanted me and participated would be a unique experience. 

Maybe some day.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Yes. he had friends that come over for gaming (strategy type board games) and he is active in Ju Jitsu. He is popular at school and I have noticed girls flirting and paying attention to him. I would say he is as normal as most kids.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


An awful lots of excuses here CT, even though they are quite eloquently put.

Sell one of your project cars and buy a car for C4. If you have to buy one for C3 as well in order to make it happen for C4, then do it.

C3 doesn't deserve it, but she sounds like a lost cause at this point. She is no longer a child, and needs something to push her out of her funk. Maybe a car and some freedom would help her. 

From everything you have posted, you are far from poor. And as a car person, why wouldn't you get cars for your kids, if you have extra collector cars sitting around? 

I feel like solutions are right in front of you, but you are failing to see them.

A transportation issue is the easiest to solve! Not sure why you would let this stand in your way. Except that its an easy out.

Here's what I don't understand. You seem to have a great relationship with your son. Why not rent a 3 bedroom house closer to your work and C4's school. Tell C4 you are moving out and would welcome him living with you full time or just during the week to make school transportation easier. Offer C3 the option of living with you full time or part time. The courts won't get involved in anything with C3 because she is an adult. The courts would likely give you custody of C4 or at least shared. You could have the marital therapist also weigh in since she knows that C2 is *ticky ticky boom boom.....*

You seem to think you are doing C3 and C4 a favor by staying and that since you and C2 are like workmates, it doesn't have a negative affect on them. But what are you modeling for them. This is so unhealthy, and I'm having a hard time understanding why you don't see that the household dynamic is contributing to the mental health issues that C3 is having. I would insist that she be evaluated. She is no longer a teen so the "teen angst" diagnosis was probably wrong.

You say that C4 is having normal friend relationships, but it doesn't sound like it to me. I have a 15 year old, and she is on the phone with friends, at school activities or doing something with friends pretty much non stop. We are very close, but even I don't get to spend as much time with her now that she is launched in the world. She gets her license next month, and I'm sure I'll see even less of her. I'll be buying a car for her in the next few weeks to make all the extracurricular activities flow more smoothly. I'm not trying to be mean, but I think the dynamics in your house have caused your kids to not have "normal" relationships. I sure hope I'm wrong!

I am still hoping that you don't stay in your current purgatory until C4 is done with school. It's just not necessary to throw yourself on that grenade any longer. There are solutions to the issues you bring up. You need to be willing to see past your idea that you are helping your kids by staying.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

You told your marriage counselor that she threatened you with trumped up rape and molestation charges and yet you still want it to work. And she agreed?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> An awful lots of excuses here CT, even though they are quite eloquently put.
> 
> Sell one of your project cars and buy a car for C4. If you have to buy one for C3 as well in order to make it happen for C4, then do it.


I wouldn't have to sell a project car. It isn't a money issue, it's a "you have to work for what you get" issue. I feel responsible to provide my kids with proper education, food, clothing and shelter. Not a car. 

That may seem harsh, or strange, but I had to buy my first car and I took very good care of it. I didn't tear it up and do stupid stuff in it because it would cost me money.




Workathome said:


> C3 doesn't deserve it, but she sounds like a lost cause at this point. She is no longer a child, and needs something to push her out of her funk. Maybe a car and some freedom would help her.


She has a car. I found her a good deal on a car that needed work. She bought the car (with money we and other family members gave her for high school graduation), and I paid to have the transmission rebuilt in it. I have spent more on the car than she did, but she still has some skin in the game.

I had planned to do the same with C4. He wants my car. He he had the money, I was going to sell it to him (at about 50% of its market value.)





Workathome said:


> From everything you have posted, you are far from poor. And as a car person, why wouldn't you get cars for your kids, if you have extra collector cars sitting around?


We have been blessed. Again, it's not about the money. It's about earning your way and being a good and productive member of society. C4 has learned that lesson... C3, not so much. She still expects everything to be given to her. C4 works for what he gets. 

And so somebody doesn't jump on me for being heartless, yes, we do give our kids gifts. We just try to keep them reasonable so they don't turn into spoiled brats with an entitled mentality. 




Workathome said:


> I feel like solutions are right in front of you, but you are failing to see them.
> 
> A transportation issue is the easiest to solve! Not sure why you would let this stand in your way. Except that its an easy out.
> 
> Here's what I don't understand. You seem to have a great relationship with your son. Why not rent a 3 bedroom house closer to your work and C4's school.


Can't. Opposite directions. School is south(ish) of where we live, I work north(ish).




Workathome said:


> Tell C4 you are moving out and would welcome him living with you full time or just during the week to make school transportation easier. Offer C3 the option of living with you full time or part time. The courts won't get involved in anything with C3 because she is an adult. The courts would likely give you custody of C4 or at least shared. You could have the marital therapist also weigh in since she knows that C2 is *ticky ticky boom boom.....*


Sounds easy, doesn't it? If it were really that easy I would have already done it. 

The thing that worries me, if C2 wanted to get spiteful, there is little to nothing I can do to prevent her from pulling C4 from school. Once he's out, he's out. He doesn't attend high school, he attends college with a adjunct high school attached for gifted students. The reason the kids can't return once they are out isn't spite, or meanness, or anything else. They do an entire year of high school in 4 month. Two years of high school in each academic year. The kids quickly get so far behind they could never catch up. That's why you HAVE to join the first year of high school (grade nine). If you don't join then, the offer is withdrawn and you can NEVER attend. That's what keeps me up at night. It's hard to get in, very easy to get out.

Before I do that, and I like the idea, I need C2's buyin that she won't do something stupid to hurt him. 




Workathome said:


> You seem to think you are doing C3 and C4 a favor by staying and that since you and C2 are like workmates, it doesn't have a negative affect on them. But what are you modeling for them. This is so unhealthy, and I'm having a hard time understanding why you don't see that the household dynamic is contributing to the mental health issues that C3 is having. I would insist that she be evaluated. She is no longer a teen so the "teen angst" diagnosis was probably wrong.


I wouldn't say I was doing them a favor. Given a choice, I would much rather we had a normal functioning family. But I don't have that, so I'm trying to make the best of what I have to work with.

Please don't take this to be snarky, because I don't intend for it to come across that way, but we can't all have what you have. I would give a great deal to have a loving spouse like yours, but since I don't, I have to take what I have and try make something of it. 




Workathome said:


> You say that C4 is having normal friend relationships, but it doesn't sound like it to me. I have a 15 year old, and she is on the phone with friends, at school activities or doing something with friends pretty much non stop. We are very close, but even I don't get to spend as much time with her now that she is launched in the world. She gets her license next month, and I'm sure I'll see even less of her. I'll be buying a car for her in the next few weeks to make all the extracurricular activities flow more smoothly. I'm not trying to be mean, but I think the dynamics in your house have caused your kids to not have "normal" relationships. I sure hope I'm wrong!


So do I. But not everyone is outgoing like your daughter. I never was. My son is more involved in activities than I ever was, but at the same time, he likes to read and race his RC vehicles and trail ride his bicycle. So he's busy doing what he wants to do. I don't know that you can lump a kid into dysfunctional just because he isn't a social butterfly. To me he seems happy and upbeat and enjoying life. 




Workathome said:


> I am still hoping that you don't stay in your current purgatory until C4 is done with school. It's just not necessary to throw yourself on that grenade any longer. There are solutions to the issues you bring up. You need to be willing to see past your idea that you are helping your kids by staying.


Everyone thinks I stay because I enjoy it. I would eat grubs too, if that is what I had to do to survive, but that doesn't mean I would enjoy doing it. 

I will take the car idea and see if I can make that work. If C2 buys off on it, and it works, then maybe I will see if I can take the next step.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Sbrown said:


> You told your marriage counselor that she threatened you with trumped up rape and molestation charges and yet you still want it to work. And she agreed?


I didn't. C2 did. And they are not trumped up in C2's mind. I thought we were past those accusations years ago, but I was wrong. 

Her claim is she felt forced into having sex because I wouldn't stop "hounding" her. She knows it's not rape in the traditional sense, but she still felt violated because I "made" her have sex. Once she had the counselor admit she should be responsible for her own body, and shouldn't be forced into having sex, that shut the argument down and she doesn't feel the need to hear anything else. I guess the counselor couldn't shake that view, so she pulled the plug. The thing is, I agree with C2. She SHOULDN'T be forced to have sex against her will. 

She pulled that one out YEARS ago, and needless to say I was shocked and hurt that she thought I was violating her. That fundamentally changed the dynamics of our marriage. A couple of days later, she apologized for saying that, but I have never forgotten the accusation and I have tried to be more understanding and tolerant of her reluctance since. 

Take all of the above, apply to the the child molestation thing four or five years later, and you have that situation. The justification there was since I was so obsessed with sex, and if I wasn't getting it from her (I was asking but not pressuring), and if I wasn't having an affair (I've been 100% faithful), where I was I getting it? 

All this hit the fan when the counselor said in her professional opinion we should consider divorce because we weren't sexually compatible. I didn't say anything (proof I was thinking about doing it) but C2 unloaded on her, and that is when all that, and a bunch more, came pouring out. That was the night she knifed me in the back (metaphorically speaking) while I wasn't home because the counselor asked me to stay, by telling the kids I didn't love them (C2, 3 or 4) and I was leaving. 

After that, C2 attended counseling alone for 4 or 5 weeks, and each week she returned more home bitter and upset than the week before. Finally, we were, as Phoenix said, kicked to the curb and the counselor said we had to try to find some compromise that would work for us, because she couldn't help us. 

And that, as they say, was that. That's when I admitted defeat, realized that she had won, and accepted that nothing would ever change. Somewhere in that 5 week window, I found out about the school thing from C4. Between that, telling the kids I didn't love them, and the counselor firing us, I lost interest. 

I never thought I would miss the good old days when the biggest problem I had was no sex. But in hindsight, at least then I had a cuddle buddy and I was mostly happy. Now I'm keeping my chin up and doing the, as people like to say here, "fake it until I can make it."


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

CT: I am in exact same position as you. Wife is rape victim who felt violated if I even asked when she wasn't in the mood. Too much pressure on her. So now we don't have sex. And I am a seething ball of resentment. She feels bad about that. But she still does not have any interest in sex so we are at an impasse. Like you, I chose to stay after the MC "fired" us for not making any changes.

Most likely there is not any solution that you will find acceptable since you are unwilling to divorce. As long as your wife assumes you will never leave, most likely nothing you can do or say will change your relationship. She knows you are willing to stay despite being unsatisfied. Why should she do more for you when you are willing to accept less? Not suggesting you should make a different choice. Just saying you should not expect things to improve unless you do. And you do not sound like the type of guy who can achieve the zen-like acceptance of a lousy arrangement. So expect to be unhappy for the forseeable future. Seems like you are strong / masochistic enough to tolerate that. Not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.

If you figure that last part out, please let me know.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> CT: I am in exact same position as you. Wife is rape victim who felt violated if I even asked when she wasn't in the mood. Too much pressure on her. So now we don't have sex. And I am a seething ball of resentment. She feels bad about that. But she still does not have any interest in sex so we are at an impasse. Like you, I chose to stay after the MC "fired" us for not making any changes.


And you have my sympathy. It's a tough spot, but I keep telling myself she isn't doing it on purpose just to be "mean."

I had an epiphany a while back that helped me understand her position. I'm a non-smoker and always have been. The fact lots of other people smoke, and seem to derive pleasure from it, in no way changes my opinion that I don't want to smoke. I don't understand the attraction and nothing anyone can say to me will (realistically) encourage me to take up smoking. I'm just not interested. 

I think if I were to change smoking to sex, I just described C2.




Holdingontoit said:


> Most likely there is not any solution that you will find acceptable since you are unwilling to divorce. As long as your wife assumes you will never leave, most likely nothing you can do or say will change your relationship. She knows you are willing to stay despite being unsatisfied. Why should she do more for you when you are willing to accept less?


Yep. I had already worked that out. I had pinned my hopes on counseling giving her understanding and her wanting to change, but I realize that was a false hope.





Holdingontoit said:


> Not suggesting you should make a different choice. Just saying you should not expect things to improve unless you do. And you do not sound like the type of guy who can achieve the zen-like acceptance of a lousy arrangement. So expect to be unhappy for the forseeable future. Seems like you are strong / masochistic enough to tolerate that. Not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.
> 
> If you figure that last part out, please let me know.


Strong and a blessing (he tells himself) because I want to do this for the kids. It may all be for naught, and I may be making the wrong decision, but it feels right to me, and I trust my gut. It has steered me right far more often than it has steered me wrong.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

You can look the current state your life is in and claim that your gut instincts are good?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Sbrown said:


> You can look the current state your life is in and claim that your gut instincts are good?


Well, yes. But I'm not infallible. 

I have thought about this a lot. If I remove the clarity of 20/20 hindsight, I would make all the same decisions again.

I have been pretty accurate in predicting which way C2 would go. I had just hoped that professional help would... help. But I predicted here that threatening her with divorce would be a bad idea. I didn't even do so, and at the first hint of that, she reacted badly. 

Oh sure, now, looking back over everything, her little hangups can be seen as a red flag. But then? I bet there a lot of women that don't want to perform oral sex, or have the same done to them.

Maybe the 2-year dry spell after our first should have clued me in, but the new parents coach had warned all us new dads that sex was going to be off the table for a while and we had to be ready for it.

Maybe having the sex rebound to only 1/8 what it was before our child was born should have been a warning, but C2 complained she was tired all the time, and as a new dad, I didn't know any better. It's common for the sex to fall off after children, isn't it? I was told it was.

By the time I realized what was happening, it was really too late to do much about it short of leaving, but I had a young daughter and an infant son. Maybe it would have been easier then, but I still hoped that we could work it out once the kids were bigger and C2 and I had more free time for ourselves. That seems to be what happens to most people.

So yeah, I'm pretty comfortable that I made the best decisions I could given the information I had at the time. I'm still successful, I have secured a future for my children, I still have a great son and perhaps, one day, I can get back my wonderful daughter. 

I wish I hadn't ended up in this place, but I can't point to one place and say, "That's where I screwed up."


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> Well, yes. But I'm not infallible.
> 
> I have thought about this a lot. If I remove the clarity of 20/20 hindsight, I would make all the same decisions again.
> 
> ...



why are you here?

be happy being miserable. its what you want after all.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

UMP said:


> The thing I have noticed with my wife is that she cannot submit to a needy marshmellow. As much as she does love me (been married 24 years) if she can sense weakness in me, she is much more likely to give out pitty sex and nothing else. Unfortunately woman are sexually attracted to MEN. When a man starts acting more feminine by being emotional and needy, it's a VERY big turn off.
> 
> When you get married, men want that sexy wild kinky woman, but they also want a live in mother. That's like wanting oil to mix well with water. Ain't gunna happen.
> 
> ...


UMP posted this in another thread. I realize he is talking about HIS wife, but I'm wondering how many here agree with his take. 

I will be upfront and say that I have ulterior motive for asking the question.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

CopperTop, 
I read endlessly for years about this stuff. I visited countless web sites and paid $$ for anything I could read about the subject of married sex. Applying what I learned from all the research has produced the very best sex of my life. I kid you not. Now, will what I have learned and applied in my marriage work for everyone? Probably not, however, it IS working for me.

Put yourself in your womans shoes and say to yourself, "would I want to have sex with me?"
When I asked myself that question, the answer I came up with was "no, I would not want to have sex with me." 

Your wife has to WANT to have sex with you. She has to be EXCITED about who you are as a person. She has to be intrigued by you. You have to be dark and familiar all at the same time.
It's a life long journey and in my opinion there is NO relaxing. As I once read on here, "foreplay starts right after the last orgasm." That is SO true and it will never stop requiring my best. If I want the best I have to be the best. My wife will accept nothing less.

The cost is great but what you get for that price is far more valuable than what you put in.

The one negative is that when you transform yourself for your wife and sex life, it seems to attract other women. For some reason I get daily vibes from other women, it's like they can smell it on me. However, given that the sex is so good with my wife, I keep coming back to what I have at home and ONLY that. It just fuels my fire to try and keep making it better and better.

For example, I never masturbate. If I run into a slump I will masturbate but never to completion. This way, I know I will be ALL IN when the time comes. Add to that Viagra and testosterone cream and I'm ready to drill for oil. My hard on is actually bigger and harder than when I was 18, and I'm 53 years old and had a heart attack 7 years ago. If I can do it, anyone can.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I didn't. C2 did. And they are not trumped up in C2's mind. I thought we were past those accusations years ago, but I was wrong.
> 
> Her claim is she felt forced into having sex because I wouldn't stop "hounding" her. She knows it's not rape in the traditional sense, but she still felt violated because I "made" her have sex. Once she had the counselor admit she should be responsible for her own body, and shouldn't be forced into having sex, that shut the argument down and she doesn't feel the need to hear anything else. I guess the counselor couldn't shake that view, so she pulled the plug. The thing is, I agree with C2. She SHOULDN'T be forced to have sex against her will.
> 
> She pulled that one out YEARS ago, and needless to say I was shocked and hurt that she thought I was violating her. That fundamentally changed the dynamics of our marriage. A couple of days later, she apologized for saying that, but I have never forgotten the accusation and I have tried to be more understanding and tolerant of her reluctance since.


She still feels that way, btw.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Of course I agree with UMP. What you quoted here is pretty much what was suggested to you in your first thread. But there is a big difference between UMP's wife and your wife. Ump's wife is not Bat Sh!t Crazy. She doesn't fall asleep before he ejacukates, she doesn't think a guy who wants sex more than twice a year is a sex addict, and she isn't 100 pounds over weight. Those all add up to: You/Brick wall.


ETA: and UMP's wife doesn't hold the kids hostage, or emotionally abuse them (by telling their father doesn't love them) to get what she wants and she doesn't use black mail to control him.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Some people do not want sex. Not with you, not with some other person, not with their idealized man / woman, they just don't. You can withhold affection and get no sex. You can provide romance and affection and get no sex. You can be strong, weak, passive, aggressive, passive-aggressive, dress well, poorly, or not at all, be understanding, sensitive, alpha, beta sigma, or aleph. They don't want sex. As a LD poster put it - you run around and around the maze of behaviors looking for sex, but there is no sex in the maze. 

If you treat this sort of partner well, they will be happy, and you won't get sex. If you treat them badly, they will be unhappy and you won't get sex. You may threaten then into regular sex, but for most people that isn't the goal. 

The types who suggest alpha like behavior haven't been in this situation because they would have left long ago when they realized what was going on (if they behave as they preach). 

Leave, cheat, live like a monk - the choice is yours.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

CT, you have made up your mind to carry on in your marriage. Or until the kids are out of the house. So take the wife out of the equation now, and start putting yourself and kids first.

Let your son finish his schooling. As a parent that's your responsibility, to ensure he gets a good education. I agree, his school is important, seems like he is in a great program. He is going to finish HS with an AS degree, right? You are going be saving tons of mola on that. Give him the chance to do his thing.

Your daughter on the other hand, seems to be suffering from depression. She is probably more sensitive than the boy and feels everything thats going on between you and your wife. Get her some help so she will better equipped to deal with everything, then, she can leave home and start living her life. Your goal with her is for her to become independent.

In the meantime, focus less on wife. She is not going to change. There is too much going on with her that she is never going to see things differently. You can only change you. Make you better. Know what you can change and influence and work on that. Keep life between the two of you easy and amiable. Take care of your personal needs, don't get addicted to porn.

When the kids are out of the house and you are ready to leave. Run the hell out of that house.

In the mean time read these two books. I always keep going back to them. 

The 7 habits of highly effective people- Dr. Steven Covey
The four agreements- Don Miguel Ruiz

Work on being the best you. Good luck.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Of course I agree with UMP. What you quoted here is pretty much what was suggested to you in your first thread. But there is a big difference between UMP's wife and your wife. Ump's wife is not Bat Sh!t Crazy. She doesn't fall asleep before he ejacukates, she doesn't think a guy who wants sex more than twice a year is a sex addict, and she isn't 100 pounds over weight. Those all add up to: You/Brick wall.
> 
> 
> ETA: and UMP's wife doesn't hold the kids hostage, or emotionally abuse them (by telling their father doesn't love them) to get what she wants and she doesn't use black mail to control him.


I'm glad you weighed in, Pink. I was hoping you would. 

I agree with his list too, and I try to live by those rules that apply in my situation. Not all do (such as the dirty talk) but I get what he was driving at and most do apply. But I want to focus on these few items... 

_Confident

No complaining about anything. You got a problem, you're a man, shut up and fix it yourself and don't whine about how hard it was. She knows what you did. If she finds out later and you did not even talk about it, she'll be even more impressed.

Touch often without the expectation of sex. In other words, if you only touch to get something, it's recorded in her mind.

Never get angry. There is NOTHING more masculine than a man that can control his temper._


What I want to know is, when *I* do these things, why I was called every name in the book? I was called weak, and afraid, and emaculated, and a number of other names. 

In particular, you called me out for not getting mad. 

So my question is, in a nutshell, why the double standard?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

For example....I read this and see:



CopperTop said:


> No complaining about anything. You got a problem, you're a man, *shut up and fix it yourself and don't whine about how hard it was*. She knows what you did. If she finds out later and you did not even talk about it, she'll be even more impressed.


But I definitely get the impression that you read it like this:



CopperTop said:


> *No complaining about anything.* You got a problem, you're a man, shut up and fix it yourself and don't whine about how hard it was. She knows what you did. *If she finds out later and you did not even talk about it, she'll be even more impressed.*


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Nope... I read it like you do, except I add in the no complaining part. If she won't help me, then fine, I'll just do it myself. I've always been that way about everything. Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.

That's what I'm trying to do. I'm holding this marriage together by force and I refuse to back down or give up until I'm ready to give it up. And that won't be for several years yet.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I'm glad you weighed in, Pink. I was hoping you would.
> 
> I agree with his list too, and I try to live by those rules that apply in my situation. Not all do (such as the dirty talk) but I get what he was driving at and most do apply. But I want to focus on these few items...
> 
> ...


No double standard.

When you're up against bat sh!t crazy, you have to respond. When your wife emotionally abuses your kids, you have to respond. When your wife accuses you of molesting your kids or raping her, you HAVE to respond! Not with calm, not with reason, nor logic, this isn't a problem to quietly solve. You hit the roof in order to convey in no uncertain terms that that behavior will never be repeated if she hopes to keep the marriage going.

Because yes, Copper, sometimes a man does have to get angry.

"I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore."


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Never get angry. There is NOTHING more masculine than a man that can control his temper.[/I]


My man CT, you don't seem to know the difference between a man that can control his temper and a man who rolls over a plays dead while he gets his azz kicked. You need to work it so the hero in your story transitions to the former if you expect to defeat Goddess Badwife Incarnate.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> No double standard.
> 
> :
> :
> ...



Understood, but I would like to remind you that you called me out on that before she opened the gates of hell on me. 

Then I was hoping if I could get her to someone with more skills than I had she could be made to understand. Now I'm more of the "'F' it. You do your thing and I will do mine because I just don't care anymore," mindset. 

I can keep the peace and ride this out. Things have mellowed lately and I have very thick skin. If she wants to make this better, the first move is hers. I'm done trying to make this happen all on my own.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

This is where a lawyer can help you a LOT. 

You meet with the lawyer and explain:
- You will likely want to divorce in 3 years
- Your wife has made terroristic threats - and you should bring a one page written summary of what those are 
- You then ask him what steps you can take between now and CD day (Copper divorce day) to minimize her ability to harm you when you file

But this will only work if you stop making excuses for her. Her threat to yank your son from his school - has nothing to do with your reliability. It was solely a terroristic threat. Nothing more or less. Simply put: Divorce me and I'll hurt our child to punish you.

Family courts have a lot of experience dealing with emotional terrorists. They'll recognize her behavior for what it is. 







CopperTop said:


> Understood, but I would like to remind you that you called me out on that before she opened the gates of hell on me.
> 
> Then I was hoping if I could get her to someone with more skills than I had she could be made to understand. Now I'm more of the "'F' it. You do your thing and I will do mine because I just don't care anymore," mindset.
> 
> I can keep the peace and ride this out. Things have mellowed lately and I have very thick skin. If she wants to make this better, the first move is hers. I'm done trying to make this happen all on my own.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> This is where a lawyer can help you a LOT.
> 
> ...


YES! Go see an attorney YESTERDAY!


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Go see an attorney? For what, have his will or an advanced directive prepared.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

CT, coming from experience that i am not willing to fully divulge on a public forum, i will say this...


until you are no longer afraid to suffer whatever punishment your wife wants to try and throw at you, in order to stop being controlled by her, you will never change anything. she will always control your every move. and the second she is forced to face humiliating and scary consequences for her OWN actions toward you, she will respect you as a person. 

right now, neither of you respect you as a person.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Nope... I read it like you do, except I add in the no complaining part. If she won't help me, then fine, I'll just do it myself. I've always been that way about everything. Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.
> 
> That's what I'm trying to do. I'm holding this marriage together by force and I refuse to back down or give up until I'm ready to give it up. And that won't be for several years yet.


 Lead, follow or get out of the way? You may have these traits in day to day life, but in your marriage you seem to be a trapped rat hoping your wife doesn't hurt you. Scared of every threat she's ever thrown at you, cowering like the Lil boy she knew she could manipulate.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> CT, coming from experience that i am not willing to fully divulge on a public forum, i will say this...
> 
> 
> until you are no longer afraid to suffer whatever punishment your wife wants to try and throw at you, in order to stop being controlled by her, you will never change anything. she will always control your every move. and the second she is forced to face humiliating and scary consequences for her OWN actions toward you, she will respect you as a person.
> ...





Sbrown said:


> Lead, follow or get out of the way? You may have these traits in day to day life, but in your marriage you seem to be a trapped rat hoping your wife doesn't hurt you. Scared of every threat she's ever thrown at you, cowering like the Lil boy she knew she could manipulate.



This isn't about ME. I made the decision that what I want isn't as important to me as my kids, most specifically my son. 

For now I'm not going to disturb the status quo because the consequences of me leaving could potentially reach beyond me or her. It's easy for you to condemn me because its not YOUR kids that could pay the price.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

The thing is CT, most folks know there are more options than just taking her sh-t. If you feel its the most viable one, just go with it and see where it leads. With multiple post explaining your decision of the self sacrifice option, its hard to tell at this point whether you're trying to sell it to us or sell it to yourself. 
Try it, adjust it, and come back in three years and tell us how it worked for you.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CT, there's another option. But it's not a pleasant one. You basically bait her to say or do something silly all under the watchful eye of your friendly GoPro or other device. If your state allows such evidence - I'm not a lawyer - then you could help build a case that will allow you to go on the offensive.

This will also depend on your state laws in general so find out what the penalties are for false charges and the like and build your case.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

john117 said:


> CT, there's another option. But it's not a pleasant one. You basically bait her to say or do something silly all under the watchful eye of your friendly GoPro or other device. If your state allows such evidence - I'm not a lawyer - then you could help build a case that will allow you to go on the offensive.
> 
> This will also depend on your state laws in general so find out what the penalties are for false charges and the like and build your case.


Just HAVING that kind of hard evidence of her behavior is often enough. 
"Wait, he has proof that i am an absolutely despicable and abusive person to my kids and husband and that I have been lying through my teeth to every single person we know? Perhaps I shouldnt give him a reason to let that get out into the world..."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

*Undecided...Need opinions soonest*

C2 confronted me last night. She is not a happy camper and has had "enough of me abusing her." Her contention is that I'm being distant and she doesn't like it. I can't argue with her because I feel like I am as well. 

Here's the twist. Now SHE wants to start marriage counseling and I have to admit, I'm torn on what to do.

On the one hand I feel like I should do this or I simply put lie to all my talk about wanting to work it out etc. 

On the other hand, the last time we did counseling, it was an unqualified disaster and and made things much, much worse.

I stated my concerns and she said the reason that it went so badly the last time was because of the counselor. C2 didn't like her at all, though I thought she was great, very easy to talk to and had a lot of good, concrete, easy to follow suggestions. She focused on trying to get us to reconnect as a couple, things like "say I love you at least five times a day" or "pay each other at least 10 compliments a day" or "go on a date, just the two of you." Clear advice that was easy to understand and follow. 

C2, however, didn't like her and said she didn't listen to what she said. 

So last night when she brought all this up I told her I needed some time to think it over because if it gets worse than this, I think I will be ready to swallow a bullet. The problem is, I lay awake all night last night worrying over this and I am no closer to coming to a decision than I was when she first mentioned it. So some input on this would be welcome. Just be aware that if I reject her offer of counseling, I'm sure she will at some point bring it back up and use it against me as proof of something.

I told her last night that I would let her know my decision today and she has already asked if I made up my mind.

I know I have a reputation of not listening. I always listened and took what advice I thought I could use, but in this... I'm really twisting in the wind and don't know what to do. So please, if you can find in your heart to try one more time with me, I would appreciate it. 


Copper


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Who would choose the counsellor? If you, then I would say yes, if her I would say no.

My $0.o2


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

OnTheFly said:


> Who would choose the counsellor? If you, then I would say yes, if her I would say no.
> 
> My $0.o2


I would assume it would be her or us together. I chose the last time and I think that is part of her complaint. She doesn't seem to remember that I asked for her input and she refused to participate so I finally got tired of waiting on her to do what she said she would do and just picked the one I liked. 

So should I take this as a "do it" vote so long as I have input?


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

*Re: Undecided...Need opinions soonest*



CopperTop said:


> So last night when she brought all this up I told her I needed some time to think it over because if it gets worse than this, I think I will be ready to swallow a bullet. The problem is, I lay awake all night last night worrying over this and I am no closer to coming to a decision than I was when she first mentioned it. So some input on this would be welcome. Just be aware that if I reject her offer of counseling, I'm sure she will at some point bring it back up and use it against me as proof of something.
> 
> I told her last night that I would let her know my decision today and she has already asked if I made up my mind.
> 
> ...


Copper, asking for advice for an issue like this on a random Internet forum is a mug's game. You know this by now, yes? For what you two are going through, I really think you need more professional help.

Are you seeing a counsellor individually? This might be a more productive place for you to ask these questions, than to come to TAM to get beat up for all of your choices.

My take is that since you've pretty much decided to stay with her, no matter how bad it gets, and are also thinking you can't take it anymore if it gets much worse, you have nothing to lose by trying counseling. But what I would suggest is that you make sure that you also have your own individual sessions, maybe even with a different person (or not, depending on how you feel about the quality) to help you through this time.

Hope you find your way to peace and happiness!


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> I would assume it would be her or us together. I chose the last time and I think that is part of her complaint. She doesn't seem to remember that I asked for her input and she refused to participate so I finally got tired of waiting on her to do what she said she would do and just picked the one I liked.
> 
> So should I take this as a "do it" vote so long as I have input?


I would. From my perspective, movement, any movement (forward, lateral, backwards) would be better than the simmering cold war of inaction you have now.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

What do you want to get out of counseling? What does she?

Let me power up the patented Dr. John crystal ball (acrylic actually, OSHA says glass breaks and we will get written up)... There.

Scenario 1 - you choose again (impartial or partial to your POV)

Scenario 2 - she chooses (presumably someone partial to her POV)

Scenario 3 - together (unlikely since nobody would take you both - not a promising prospect like the last one)

Under scenario 1 she will be told to improve - ain't happening. 

Under scenario 2 you will be told to svck it up and let her be, just be nice to her. :lol: non starter.

In the unlikely event you both agree to a counselor the counselor will figure out it's not going anywhere and if he/she is honest he/she will not accept you long term.

My acrylic ball says she wants to make sure you stick around and not dump her. Classic move from the "too little, too late" school of thought. Buys her time and may work(for her) short term so she can blame you.

My answer is simple. 

Ask her what does she want to get out of MC. If it's just a move to continue the status quo, fvck it and go fishing. If she wants to improve, she knows where you are. 

This here small appliance psychologist thinks MC is a waste of time and money of all she wants to do is placate you.

If you spent all night thinking about this you are not ready to let her go. That's a whole different game.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

*Re: Undecided...Need opinions soonest*



always_alone said:


> Copper, asking for advice for an issue like this on a random Internet forum is a mug's game. You know this by now, yes? For what you two are going through, I really think you need more professional help.


Yes. I just wanted to get a read. If I got no responses I would have chosen to go because as OntheFly said, any movement is better than none. But I'm not thinking clearly right now and I am/was afraid I wall missing something obvious.




always_alone said:


> Are you seeing a counsellor individually? This might be a more productive place for you to ask these questions, than to come to TAM to get beat up for all of your choices.


No. The reason it pretty simple... I have two choices. Go or stay. Since I am staying at least until C4 is out of school, that leaves me once choice. Why spend $200 an hour when I have already made up my mind? I can not follow's advice from here for free. :wink2:

The funny thing is, the counselor that I liked so well really did try to help. She first suggested an open marriage (which I didn't want to go for myself), THEN divorce, but THEN pulled even that advice back and said we just had to find something that would work us. I don't know what C2 told her, but what ever it was, even the counselor's advice, at the end, was for us to try to stick it out.

That's what I've done. I've made it work.




always_alone said:


> My take is that since you've pretty much decided to stay with her, no matter how bad it gets, and are also thinking you can't take it anymore if it gets much worse, you have nothing to lose by trying counseling. But what I would suggest is that you make sure that you also have your own individual sessions, maybe even with a different person (or not, depending on how you feel about the quality) to help you through this time.
> 
> Hope you find your way to peace and happiness!


Thanks for the advice. It would be nice to have someone to talk to that didn't judge me so harshly, but $200 an hour is a LOT of money over time. If it doesn't change anything (and I don't see how it can) it seems like such a waste.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

*Re: Undecided...Need opinions soonest*



CopperTop said:


> Thanks for the advice. It would be nice to have someone to talk to that didn't judge me so harshly, but $200 an hour is a LOT of money over time. If it doesn't change anything (and I don't see how it can) it seems like such a waste.


The point of individual counseling isn't to help you decide to stay or go, it's to help you build coping mechanisms for what is likely to be a pretty toxic situation. Given that you are clear that you are staying for x amount of time, and that you are worried about making things even more toxic than they are, these coping mechanisms could be invaluable to your own sanity over the next little while, and well worth the $200/hr.

Plus, you don't have to go every week or anything. Just have some set amount of appointments, with the possibility of follow-up should the need arise. 

I think this could help you stay grounded in a way that TAM can't.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

CT, this saga is really tiresome. You know as well as everyone else here neither one of you is really changing. She just wants you to return to your pre-counseling dynamic. 

So considering your commitment to stay "for the good of the kids" and your fear of her making good on her threats if you dare file for D...Save the $200 an hour and go back to being the good dancing monkey she formerly had no issues with. 

I guarantee any counselor you like she'll hate and if she can find one to endorse her behavior you will be unhappy and know you are wasting money. Getting fired by a counselor should be taken as a huge sign that you are at a massive dead end, forge ahead if you want but we all know this isn't ever changing.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> What do you want to get out of counseling? What does she?


I had given up on counseling. I asked her why the change of heart. Her answer was pretty straight forward. To paraphrase, she thinks I'm being emotionally abusive and she wants it to stop. 





john117 said:


> Let me power up the patented Dr. John crystal ball (acrylic actually, OSHA says glass breaks and we will get written up)... There.
> 
> Scenario 1 - you choose again (impartial or partial to your POV)


I think the first counselor was pretty even handed. I got my own share of lumps and corrective behavior suggestions. 




john117 said:


> Scenario 2 - she chooses (presumably someone partial to her POV)
> 
> Scenario 3 - together (unlikely since nobody would take you both - not a promising prospect like the last one)


An interesting observation. Why do you say this about option #3? Seems like all marriage counseling would have two sides of the problem. Why is ours different?





john117 said:


> Under scenario 1 she will be told to improve - ain't happening.
> 
> Under scenario 2 you will be told to svck it up and let her be, just be nice to her. :lol: non starter.
> 
> In the unlikely event you both agree to a counselor the counselor will figure out it's not going anywhere and if he/she is honest he/she will not accept you long term.


This is what happened the last time. 10 weeks in (I think) 5 weeks together then 5 more with C2 alone, she cut us loose. That is the thing that crushed all the hope out of me. She seemed to have such a clear vision into the problem and her advice was so easy to follow, and seemed so right to me (fall in love again), but it went no where.





john117 said:


> My acrylic ball says she wants to make sure you stick around and not dump her. Classic move from the "too little, too late" school of thought. Buys her time and may work(for her) short term so she can blame you.
> 
> My answer is simple.
> 
> ...


Oh, I'm ready. I got busted last night at dinner watching another woman. She was about my age and lovely. But the thing that caught and held my attention was how she acted. She was there with her family (I assume husband and two adult or near adult children and one early teen) and she seems SO HAPPY. The whole family did. I want that. I want it so badly that I couldn't not watch them. 

But I feel positively trapped by my circumstances. I stay for the kid(s) and no other reason.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

kristin2349 said:


> Save the $200 an hour and go back to being the good dancing monkey she formerly had no issues with.


I can't. I would if I could, but she killed it. I don't have it in me any more. 

And as always, thank you for your kind and thoughtful suggestions. 





J.deere said:


> Second , take it 1 day at a time. Problems take a long time to work out.
> 
> Third, don't give up easily. After all filing divorce is expensive and grueling from what I hear.
> 
> ...


Once again, I would want to point out what I see as a double standard. The above was posted in another thread. This seems like sound and reasonable advice, but just like UMP's suggestions, when I apply these, I'm a dancing monkey.

Funny that.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

*Re: Undecided...Need opinions soonest*



always_alone said:


> The point of individual counseling isn't to help you decide to stay or go, it's to help you build coping mechanisms for what is likely to be a pretty toxic situation.





always_alone said:


> I think this could help you stay grounded in a way that TAM can't.


Agreed, at least until your boy is out and on his way. 

(I hold out a 1% chance for a miracle or epiphany for her)


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I think another round of marriage counseling seems fun. Seriously. 

Your wife will not find a counselor who will validate your wife's accusation of emotional abuse. 

When she came here and posted her own thread in the Ladies Lounge it was downright comical. She kept saying you had an addiction, wouldn't admit to what the addiction was, wanted help to find a way to get you to return to the engaged husband you had been last year, back when you did not (DID NOT) have control of your addiction. She said now that you DO have control over your addiction (you've stopped trying to get her to have sex with you) you are distant and cold. After about 5-7 of her posting back and forth she finally came out with it, that you were addicted to sex. That's when the light bulb went off for me and I asked her if her husband was CopperTop. 

She then deleted her thread and disappeared.

FTR, several members had guessed that the addiction she was talking about was sex and replied, that wanting to have sex was normal. In the post in which she admitted you had a sex addiction, she actually said that whenever you two had sex you would want it again!!! like in the same week! She also said that people "our age" don't do "that" any more.

She is not going to find a therapist who will validate her POV that you have a sex addiction and that there is something wrong with you for wanting sex more than twice a year or so. Nor will she find a therapist who will attempt to increase your engagement, to her satisfaction while your emotional needs continue to go unmet.

I predict that within 3 sessions she is going to want to quit because this therapist doesn't know what he/she is talking about.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Once again, I would want to point out what I see as a double standard. The above was posted in another thread. This seems like sound and reasonable advice, but just like UMP's suggestions, when I apply these, I'm a dancing monkey.
> 
> Funny that.


It is reasonable advice.....if the spouse in question was of sound mind. But your spouse is not.

Let's look at the advice you want to be given shall we?

*Second , take it 1 day at a time. Problems take a long time to work out.*

Your wife's problems will take a long time to work out once she comes to understand that her POV about sex is completely unreasonable. But she won't ever come to understand that so that problem will never work out.

*Third, don't give up easily. After all filing divorce is expensive and grueling from what I hear.*

There is not one TAM member who thinks you have any chance at all ever of having a happy loving relationship that includes regular enthusiastic sex with your wife. If you want that you have to find a new wife.

*Fourth , put your thoughts on your spouse point of view. Perhaps you are being unreasonable and difficult and not understanding.* 

We've already established your spouse's POV is ridiculously unreasonable.

It is unreasonable to fall sound asleep after you've had an orgasm leaving your husband to finish on his own during the twice a year times you consent to sex.


*Fifth, don't expect much at first. Until he or she feels relaxed again, comfortable , feels it legit and it's going to last it will slowly change. *

:lol: don't expect anything.


*Sixth, finding out the reason(s) why it's not working to fix the problems. It may be lack of communication, lack of date nights, working too many hours , verbal abuse, not helping out enough with chores or kids, health reasons, substance abuse, and so on.*

You already know why it's not working, and you already know it's not fixable.


*Seventh, once you are getting along better keep it up. Dont go back to your old ways or the conflict will start all over again.

Eighth, understand over the course of a ltr people change a bit and to go with the changes of times. *

You'll never get to these steps because you will never beyond step two.

*Ninth, there are a lot of good suggestions on this site. It's true I've found that women want men not to be indecisive. To be the man and not get walked on by them. They also need their time and time with their girlfriends without a insecure husband that is controlling.*


You've had some of the best advice and attention on your threads. The only advice you've taken was to distance yourself from your wife and to stop asking for sex. For your whole marriage you've passively allowed your wife to dictate the terms for you. The only bit of assertiveness you've shown was to disengage with an unreasonable person.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> You've had some of the best advice and attention on your threads. The only advice you've taken was to distance yourself from your wife and to stop asking for sex. For your whole marriage you've passively allowed your wife to dictate the terms for you. The only bit of assertiveness you've shown was to disengage with an unreasonable person.



Since I have been here, your statement is true. I had/have given up. But if you recall, way back at the very beginning with my very first post, I wasn't asking for advice on improving my situation. I was asking for advice on how to cope with the situation I had. 

But nobody wanted to give me that advice. They wanted to give me advice on how to improve my marriage. Well, now you see what I'm up against. For very nearly 2 years I have not once tried to seduce my wife. For 12 months of that, when I was still being the emotionally supportive husband, she was happy and I was happier than I am now. 

But I made the mistake of believing that I could change my lot in life, and what I did instead was make it worse. So really, I have made this bed, and now I have to live in it. 

That's what I'm trying to do now, make the best of a bad situation. If counseling helps make this a little more bearable, if it makes the wait a little less dreary, why shouldn't I try? I just don't know if counseling will make things better or worse. You seem to think worse...and that's not a comfortable thought.


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## Justinian (Mar 7, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> ... I predict that within 3 sessions she is going to want to quit because this therapist doesn't know what he/she is talking about.


Sadly, I think this is the most likely scenario.

However, I've never been one to quit if there's any chance at all, so I would probably go ahead with it. After all, how much worse can things really get?

I would let her choose the counselor because I think she may be more likely to listen to someone she chose. And who knows, there may be someone out there who can get through to her, even a little bit.

We've been to many counselors over the years for various issues, and I've found that there is a tremendous difference in skills and abilities. Don't cheap out, the counselors that charge more are *usually* better than average, which is why their clients are willing to pay more. It doesn't take long to find out if you're getting what you pay for.

We've got a counselor now who has been absolutely amazing (and not cheap). She is helping us a lot with both individual and couples issues, and that's after forty years of marriage. Making a marriage work takes a lifetime of effort, it's always a "work in progress".


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## where_are_we (May 24, 2013)

I went back and read some of your initial story and much of this thread. I am so distraught by your situation my head is now pounding.

Although I did not read every post, I have read enough to know that you are sadly in a no win situation my friend.

It will not be easy, but you have to get out of this situation. Don't be a martyr. Your children will understand, they are adults/nearly adult. Divorce does not make you a failure or a bad person or father. Your family is already broken. I believe you can be unbroken by leaving this monster.

My husband wouldn't have sex with me either, although for very different reasons. We have been apart for 4 months now. My teenagers are fine and we all are much happier. I plan to never have a serious relationship again. If I want to have sex, I will just go have it. No strings as it is not worth it. Although I have yet to act on any of that.

Good luck to you.


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## Justinian (Mar 7, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> Since I have been here, your statement is true. I had/have given up. But if you recall, way back at the very beginning with my very first post, I wasn't asking for advice on improving my situation. I was asking for advice on how to cope with the situation I had.
> 
> But nobody wanted to give me that advice ...


*CT, that's not entirely true. Back in March I posted the following on your original thread:*



Justinian said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by CopperTop View Post
> 
> The very first post, the one that started this thread, was asking for help for that very thing. Does anyone have any advice on how to remain happy in a less than ideal situation?
> ...


*Since that time, things have improved for us greatly. Around the first of the year we found a therapist that we both had a super connection with. She has helped my wife discover things about herself that she never understood, and her desire for intimacy is returning.

I'm sure glad that I never gave up, I love her so much.*


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

You seem more focused on assigning blame than creating a 3 year plan. You claim that your marriage is now unbearable while simultaneously choosing not to create an exit plan. 




CopperTop said:


> Since I have been here, your statement is true. I had/have given up. But if you recall, way back at the very beginning with my very first post, I wasn't asking for advice on improving my situation. I was asking for advice on how to cope with the situation I had.
> 
> But nobody wanted to give me that advice. They wanted to give me advice on how to improve my marriage. Well, now you see what I'm up against. For very nearly 2 years I have not once tried to seduce my wife. For 12 months of that, when I was still being the emotionally supportive husband, she was happy and I was happier than I am now.
> 
> ...


----------



## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

Justinian said:


> *CT, that's not entirely true. Back in March I posted the following on your original thread:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Justinian- Your wife sounds like a lovely person and with the exception of sex, she has been a good wife and mother.

CT's wife has been a terrible mother and terrible partner in every way. 

CT's wife was never interested in sex from day one. She never once touched his penis. She has severe issues that are not going to resolve, mostly because she doesn't see that she has a problem.

If I were him, I'd let her chose the counselor. No certified counselor is going to tell her that her actions are OK. IF they do, I'd file a complaint against them. Most marriage counselors with see you each individually after they see you together. You must be honest with the MC and tell them all the threats the C2 has made against you and your son.

*Marriage counseling might be a place where you can work on uncoupling, making a plan on what is best for your son. If you could get C2 to see how her threat on your son's education has made you feel, perhaps you could get reassurance from her that she will not make threats like that again. The counselor needs to know that she is doing these things. Right now, I don't know how you can lay in bed next to her at night after the threats she has made against you and in the worst interests of your son!*


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Work,

There is a concensus that C2 behaves terribly under duress. 

I'm not sure she's a bad mother in the 'day to day'. 





Workathome said:


> Justinian- Your wife sounds like a lovely person and with the exception of sex, she has been a good wife and mother.
> 
> CT's wife has been a terrible mother and terrible partner in every way.
> 
> ...


----------



## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Work,
> 
> There is a consensus that C2 behaves terribly under duress.
> 
> I'm not sure she's a bad mother in the 'day to day'.


I'm saying she is a terrible mother because of the threats she made to her son, and the things she said after they went to counseling. No "good" mother treats her children this way. She has also had a pattern of using the children in her tirades against CT. She has shown her children a terrible model for their future sexual health and for future relationships.

Also, she has done everything she can to alienate the daughter from her father. AND, the daughter has some mental health issues that are being completely ignored for both CT and C2. Food mother, my As#....


----------



## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

That was supposed to say Good mother, my as#, but I think Food mother works too. 

She has also shown them a terrible model for good health. When the dr. gives you two years to live if you don't make changes, you make the changes so your kids aren't left alone.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Justinian said:


> *CT, that's not entirely true. Back in March I posted the following on your original thread:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're correct and I apologize. I remember that post, and there were a few others as well. What I SHOULD have said is most didn't want to give me advice on that.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> You seem more focused on assigning blame than creating a 3 year plan. You claim that your marriage is now unbearable while simultaneously choosing not to create an exit plan.


No, not really assigning blame. I am just pointing out that it was my actions precipitated the events that followed. 

For now I am trying to get the ship stable and stop the sinking...then I will worry about how to get to a safe port.


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> This is beyond sad.
> 
> Best of luck with this extremely dysfunctional situation, one where the kids and wife run the show, and C3 is turning into a clone of C2. I will bow out now as there is nothing constructive I can offer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Coop with all your great plans hear this

Everybody in that house is doomed to fail

55


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Probably.
> 
> No/yes/yes.
> 
> ...


Coop do yo think her mothers influence has anything to do with this ?

I think your answer will be interesting

55


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Work,
> 
> There is a concensus that C2 behaves terribly under duress.
> 
> I'm not sure she's a bad mother in the 'day to day'.



Thank you MEM. You at least see this. Day to day things are not that bad so long as I don't "rock the boat."

C2 has some issues. They're probably related, but I'm not sure how. We had to have our van repaired and it was (in my opinion) something best handled by the dealer and not our normal shop. I set it all up and all she had to do was drop the van off.

I called her later that day to make sure the hand-off went smoothly. She was already in a snit (why I can't recall) and predicted that the dealer would find a lot more "problems with the van." I agreed that they probably would.

They did. $2,000 worth. Some of it was understandable (timing belt replacement... but they had no way of knowing it had already been done) and some was the typical dealer upselling (brake rotors need resurfacing & fuel system flush). Anyway she was having a fit over it, convinced they were trying to take advantage of her because she was a woman. 

I finally got her calmed down by telling her I expected it and that it was their JOB to point out every little thing wrong. I am pretty sure that everything the put on the list (arguably) needed to be done or they had no way of knowing it had already been done.

We declined all the service except for the door repair and I thought that was the end of it. 

One day later, the motorized door broke again. C2 had another fit, stomping around, complaining that they could find $2,000 worth of stuff that didn't need doing but couldn't fix the problem we took it in for. 

I wanted to take the van back on Monday and talk to the service manager, but she INSISTED that she was going to do it. At 8:30 Monday, the dealership called and told me to come get the van. They weren't touching it. C2 had flown into such a rage they didn't want our business and someone had to come get the van.

I talked to the service manager, and after a calm and polite conversation, the dealership agreed to fix the problem again at no charge. But C2 was not welcome in their dealership anymore and would I please come get the van when it was complete.

This just happened and I tell this story to demonstrate how sensitive to what she perceives as "slights" or "being taken advantage of." After I told her about that she is no longer welcome there, and how with a little logic, understanding and calm reasoning, I had resolved the problem to everyone's satisfaction, she felt sheepish and chagrined. 

She says and does things in the heat of anger that she regrets. She has since apologized to me for calling me out in front of the kids. It's not that she is a bad/evil person, it's that she get so upset over certain things that she does things she otherwise wouldn't.

Everyone busts my chops about not getting mad and flying hot, but all that will do is escalate the situation and make a bad situation worse. At least my way, I bite down on my anger and internalize it until I can vent it off in some nondestructive way, usually by walking away and putting some distance between me and the source of the anger.


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> You're correct and I apologize. I remember that post, and there were a few others as well. What I SHOULD have said is most didn't want to give me advice on that.



CT cut the crap! You did get PLENTY of good advice, constructive advice and you responded with flat out resistance and thousands of reasons it wouldn't work. Threads were locked, new ones started tons more advice, lather, rinse, repeat.

I don't remember you clearly stating that you wanted help ONLY coping. If you go back and read the first post in this thread you still didn't ask for that advice, you just blamed the forum for giving you advice that you felt made things worse. You took no blame on for not having the backbone to see things through properly. She won, she always will, she has bigger [email protected] than you. Just admit you don't know how to be without her and the sick interplay of twisted codependence your family has become.


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## Justinian (Mar 7, 2015)

Workathome said:


> Justinian- Your wife sounds like a lovely person and with the exception of sex, she has been a good wife and mother.
> 
> CT's wife has been a terrible mother and terrible partner in every way ...


I understand, I've read all of CT's posts over the last several months.

His road has been much rougher and mine has been much longer.

My point is that it's very hard to decide when it's time to quit trying, because the next try might be the one that finally turns a corner.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> That was supposed to say Good mother, my as#, but I think Food mother works too.
> 
> She has also shown them a terrible model for good health. When the dr. gives you two years to live if you don't make changes, you make the changes so your kids aren't left alone.



She has finally started getting serious about it. Down 35 pounds since whenever, first of the year or so.

And we are not ignoring our daughters mental health. She was evaluated by a trained and well respected child psychologist and he said there was nothing wrong with her. 

All this started when I refused to sign the papers that would allow her to join the Air Force before she graduated high school. Both parents had to sign, and while C2 was willing, I flat refused. She has never forgiven me that, and blames me for her being rejected... logic or evidence be damned. 

From that moment forward, our relationship has been steadily going down hill. When I laid the ultimatum that she had to go to school or get a job and move out, that only deteriorated the situation further. 

I'm sorry she doesn't like her job. I'm sorry she doesn't want to go to school. I'm sorry the Air Force rejected her. I'm sorry that it came down to me threatening to kick her out of the house before she would stop sulking like a 10 year old. But I'm not sorry for expecting her to act like an adult, get on with her life, and not be the 40 year old kid that still lives at home with her parents.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

kristin2349 said:


> CT cut the crap! You did get PLENTY of good advice, constructive advice and you responded with flat out resistance and thousands of reasons it wouldn't work. Threads were locked, new ones started tons more advice, lather, rinse, repeat.
> 
> I don't remember you clearly stating that you wanted help ONLY coping. If you go back and read the first post in this thread you still didn't ask for that advice, you just blamed the forum for giving you advice that you felt made things worse. You took no blame on for not having the backbone to see things through properly. She won, she always will, she has bigger [email protected] than you. Just admit you don't know how to be without her and the sick interplay of twisted codependence your family has become.



The thread is locked so I can't quote it, but this is my very first post.



"I am a long time lurker, and have gotten some useful advice from this forum, but now I'm struggling.

I have been in a sexless marriage for twenty years, but my ability to cope is failing. I find that I am becoming more frustrated and bitter, and having to swallow that is starting to affect me in ways I don't like. 

For those who have a low demand spouse, how do you continue to cope long term? I have my life and hobbies, but it is no longer enough.

Thanks,

Copper"



For the record, I have started 5 threads. The locked one. Another that I abandoned because it was going nowhere. 

There was another that was about how to date your wife (while we were in counseling) that was hijacked and scorn was heaped upon me.

One where I said goodbye.

This one. 

The last three had NOTHING to do with my "problems" with C2, but two of them were hi-jacked. I'm not the one that keeps bring it up, others are. 

I've been nothing but polite to everyone and I never allow people to bait me, but I have to ask...if you dislike me so much, why don't you just ignore me?

Copper


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My wife has been known to give the same treatment to unfortunate merchants . We once ordered a dinette from Denmark (like every other piece of furniture we own). There was some delay then delay after delay and six months later she storms into the single store that sells Danish furniture and pulls a similar C2. 

Mind you we only had like $100 deposit on the furniture... Then the furniture arrives and gets delivered. Much to J2's horror the fabric pattern is slightly different than the one ordered. Storms to the store a second time, another C2.

We never got billed the remaining $1600. And that's from a store where we bought $40k of furniture over two decades.

Copper, I see a great business opportunity


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

just got it 55 said:


> Coop do yo think her mothers influence has anything to do with this ?
> 
> I think your answer will be interesting
> 
> 55



I don't know. She has never said anything to C3 in my presence that would indicate that she does. I have tried to coach C3 a little, to dress a little more presentable, to stand up straight and not slouch, to smile, to not be so critical of people. 

As I said somewhere else... I get more response talking to the dog.

C3 has told me that she thinks people should accept her as she is and feels no need to do anything to encourage people to like her, so she doesn't. Perhaps part of that is my fault because I did talk to her about peer pressure and doing what is right vs what is popular and being her own person. 

But this wasn't how I intended for her take it.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> My wife has been known to give the same treatment to unfortunate merchants . We once ordered a dinette from Denmark (like every other piece of furniture we own). There was some delay then delay after delay and six months later she storms into the single store that sells Danish furniture and pulls a similar C2.
> 
> Mind you we only had like $100 deposit on the furniture... Then the furniture arrives and gets delivered. Much to J2's horror the fabric pattern is slightly different than the one ordered. Storms to the store a second time, another C2.
> 
> ...



Maybe for you. In my case, the dealership was kicking my butt out and I would have had to taken the car somewhere else and paid to have it repaired again. 

I really hate it when people act like that. It is so unnecessary.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> The thread is locked so I can't quote it, but this is my very first post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't "dislike" you CT, I don't know you. I've read pages and pages of this and you must know it is a slow motion train wreck you are living, it is hard to ignore. You continue to post updates and yes I read them, and sometimes repsond. But you're right, I can't be constructive anymore so I will refrain from commenting. Good luck.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

kristin2349 said:


> [/B]
> 
> I don't "dislike" you CT, I don't know you. I've read pages and pages of this and you must know it is a slow motion train wreck you are living, it is hard to ignore. You continue to post updates and yes I read them, and sometimes repsond. But you're right, I can't be constructive anymore so I will refrain from commenting. Good luck.



You're right. I'm well aware of the slow motion train wreck. And like a good crash, I understand that it's hard not to look. 

But after the first thread was locked, I only posted about things that weren't directly related to my problem. 

How should I take my wife out because I was so out of practice? The counselor just said take her on a date... she didn't say what to do and it had been so long since C2 and I dated, I didn't really know what to do. Sad? Perhaps. But if you are teetotalers, and you can't do anything physical, and she isn't interested in anything you mention, it's hard not to get stuck. But lots of people on here have great relationships and I thought they might like to share some advice. 

I said goodbye... but then later, I decided to try to give something back to the forum with this post. I went back and read what I wrote as my first post in this tread. I thought I was pretty clear that I WASN'T blaming anyone here. When I read it, that is how I read it. But I knew people were very frustrated with me, and I tried to explain how not every situation falls into the same neat little boxes. I offered that as something for people giving advice to think about. I wasn't trying to be stubborn or pig headed or simply goad the good members here. I took what advice seemed like it would work in my unique situation.

That was my point. Every person's situation is unique, with different individuals and personalities, and the cookie cutter advice (leave her/him!) may not always be the best advice.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I had given up on counseling. I asked her why the change of heart. Her answer was pretty straight forward. To paraphrase, she thinks I'm being emotionally abusive and she wants it to stop.


Counselling is for people who don't like where they're at now and want to change it. But remember, you cannot change someone else, you can only change yourself and how you react to things.

Individual counselling is for people who want to change themselves.

Marriage counselling is for a couple who wants to change their dynamic.

Both are very valuable, especially if done simultaneously. Sometimes the same counsellor can do it all, and sometimes it's better to have different ones.

Your wife sounds like she wants YOU to change, not her. No amount of counselling is going to accomplish that for her.

However, you have a three year plan before your wife's extortion/blackmail power of you will end and you can break up (whenever your son graduates from his special school and she can no longer mess up his education to spite you). So really, it doesn't matter if counselling is going to accomplish anything or not. It's just another hoop you have to jump through to survive the next three years. But who knows, maybe something will get accomplished? Or maybe you spend the three years in a delaying tactic by giving your wife false hope by jumping from counsellor to counsellor looking for the right 'fit.' If you're really lucky, she'll find a counsellor that manages to help HER change, because it sure sounds like she needs it!



CopperTop said:


> I think the first counselor was pretty even handed. I got my own share of lumps and corrective behavior suggestions.


I like the first counsellor my work EAP sent us to. My ex HATED him. Because he wasn't saying what my ex wanted to hear. Sounds similar to what happened to you the first time, and what will likely happen in any counselling you do now.

Personally, I'd do the marriage counselling, since it can't hurt. But make it conditional on both of you ALSO getting individual counselling. Remind her that you can't change someone else, you can only change how you react. But you can BOTH work together to change your marriage.



CopperTop said:


> Oh, I'm ready. I got busted last night at dinner watching another woman. She was about my age and lovely. But the thing that caught and held my attention was how she acted. She was there with her family (I assume husband and two adult or near adult children and one early teen) and she seems SO HAPPY. The whole family did. I want that. I want it so badly that I couldn't not watch them.
> 
> But I feel positively trapped by my circumstances. I stay for the kid(s) and no other reason.


If your wife nags about you watching another woman, or if it comes up in counselling, be sure to clarify that you were watching the FAMILY and being jealous of that. Also keep in mind that what people present in public is not necessarily what happens in private if you find yourself feeling down. Or maybe that's her second husband and the first one was an abusive jerk.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

It's done.

It seemed the prevailing attitude was "What have you got to lose?" so I have agreed to attend counseling. She is going to prepare a list of counselors and I will choose one.

If anything fun or interesting comes out of it, I will post something in the counseling subforum for your reading amusement. 

I have decided that while I am not hopeful I will give it the ol' college try, go in with an open mind, and try to make something out of it. At the very lest it will start us talking again, and that will be something. 

And who knows... maybe I can even get back to the dancing monkey stage. At least there I had a measure of happiness that I don't now.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

I get it. But the topic du jour ain't C2. It's you. 

And what you're really upset about is this: 

We pushed you to push C2. You did. And for the first time in your marriage clearly saw that:

1. When compromise is needed: C2 is ALL ABOUT HER. She does not care if that leaves you tense and unhappy. 
2. She's willing to try to Nuke your life to extort you into continuing a marriage she knows you're not happy with.
3. Willing to damage the kids to keep you. 

And you can't UNSEE all that ugliness. You can't love someone who is that selfish, and when upset, that hateful and destructive. 





CopperTop said:


> Thank you MEM. You at least see this. Day to day things are not that bad so long as I don't "rock the boat."
> 
> C2 has some issues. They're probably related, but I'm not sure how. We had to have our van repaired and it was (in my opinion) something best handled by the dealer and not our normal shop. I set it all up and all she had to do was drop the van off.
> 
> ...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Good luck CT.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> I get it. But the topic du jour ain't C2. It's you.
> 
> ...



All very succinct and loaded with truth. I deny none of this and embrace it all. I'm not as dense and blind as people think. I'm just...confident...that my non-combative way is what will work best in this situation. Combat... that will come later when the non-combatants are no longer in the line of fire.

I had sort of come to terms with my situation by ignoring it, just like I would a co-worker that I don't much like. I do what I have to, and treat them as I would any one else in the same situation, do it with respect, but otherwise ignore them and not offer anything beyond what is required and expected.

Now she is trying to drag me back in and, to be honest, I don't want to go. I just want to get through these few years with some shred of peace. 

This fall I start a major landscaping overhaul. I'm going to dump a lot of TLC (Time, Labor & Cash) to up the curb appeal of our house. I'm decluttering and dumping items we no longer need and use. I have reorganized our records so that things that are important to me are in my control, and things that are not important I no longer have any control over. 

Finances are trickier because the last time I set up accounts (to try to shove her in the direction I wanted her to go) it simply made her more obstinate, but I'm carefully, and slowly, teasing that tangled web apart as well. 

I'm getting there, one day at a time. This thing with counseling is just another bump in a long and bumpy road.


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## Justinian (Mar 7, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> I'm getting there, one day at a time. This thing with counseling is just another bump in a long and bumpy road.


CT, the odds are long, but it is possible that you'll find a professional that can get you both to take a hard look in the mirror.

Call me an eternal optimist, but I'm hoping that's what happens. Good luck to you both.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

I have never questioned your intelligence. 

It's important that you begin to shape your sons understanding of the situation so he:
- fully understands the level of support you are showing him
- knows that his graduation from high school will likely be the catalyst for you beginning the process

Not a guilt trip. Just an explanation of your rationale. 

And as part of that you make sure he understands that for a while C2 is going to be very upset and will likely be lashing out in an ugly manner. He may ask you to wait through that summer til he leaves for college. And that's not really ok. He's part of the family too and needs to be around to support his mom for a while as she processes this. 

To reiterate: In a divorce, she's baked. Just because she dislikes sex doesn't mean she doesn't value companionship and solid financial support. 

You on the other hand will find a very different world out there. You won't be alone long. 

As far as any comments about your commitment go - proactively address those. A 'normal' guy would have bailed a decade ago. You've shown nothing but commitment. Ultimately, one person can't carry the entire responsibility for a marriage. Not a healthy one. And that if your son ever finds himself in this type situation, you'd want HIM to do the same thing. 




CopperTop said:


> All very succinct and loaded with truth. I deny none of this and embrace it all. I'm not as dense and blind as people think. I'm just...confident...that my non-combative way is what will work best in this situation. Combat... that will come later when the non-combatants are no longer in the line of fire.
> 
> I had sort of come to terms with my situation by ignoring it, just like I would a co-worker that I don't much like. I do what I have to, and treat them as I would any one else in the same situation, do it with respect, but otherwise ignore them and not offer anything beyond what is required and expected.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I read her thread. No way. You need to be open to alternate viewpoints for MC to work. She isn't. 



Justinian said:


> CT, the odds are long, but it is possible that you'll find a professional that can get you both to take a hard look in the mirror.
> 
> Call me an eternal optimist, but I'm hoping that's what happens. Good luck to you both.


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> It's done.
> 
> It seemed the prevailing attitude was "What have you got to lose?" so I have agreed to attend counseling. She is going to prepare a list of counselors and I will choose one.
> 
> ...


It appears I am late to the discussion and the decision has been made. 

Since it seems the one thing that C2 is good at - is stating exactly what she wants - and what she will or will not accept - and then enforcing it - no matter what or who gets hurt because of it, I think I can say with some accuracy (since she has actually articulated this to you herself) - if you don't go back to the dancing monkey stage - you are screwed! Because that is her one and only purpose in suggesting counseling. She has clearly stated that. She has no intention on working on her side - she is dragging you to counseling so YOU WILL CHANGE BACK. 

So save yourself some disappointment and don't go in with any delusions - and don't bother "trying to make something out of it" - unless that something is what she wants from you. Quite frankly - if you are going to give her what she wants - save the money and skip the counseling and just do it. You know exactly what she wants, so you either give it to her - and things get better, or you don't - and she will continue to find ways to make you pay. Counseling or no counseling - the rules of this game have been laid out on the table and your wife is both the rule maker, the ump, and your opponent. In other words - she wins, you don't! It really seems to be that simple - based on what you have told us. 

As a side note - having just spent two weeks with my grandson who goes back and forth between his divorced parents - I do admire those couples who make the sacrifices to stay in bad marriages and try to make the best of it for the sake of their kids and manage to keep peace in the house, and not create a war zone environment for their children to live around. Unfortunately for many kids - that is not the case - and to make it even worse, the parents continue the war even after the divorce. The biggest causalities in these situations are always the children.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> All very succinct and loaded with truth. I deny none of this and embrace it all. I'm not as dense and blind as people think. I'm just...confident...that my non-combative way is what will work best in this situation. Combat... that will come later when the non-combatants are no longer in the line of fire.
> 
> I had sort of come to terms with my situation by ignoring it, just like I would a co-worker that I don't much like. I do what I have to, and treat them as I would any one else in the same situation, do it with respect, but otherwise ignore them and not offer anything beyond what is required and expected.
> 
> ...



I find it fascinating (and very sad) that when you finally have a handle on things and are on a path to making things better for you - she starts to panic and tries to pull you off that path and put you back on the one she wants you on! You're pulling away from her emotionally seems to really be getting to her.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Damn I'd love to be a fly on that wall when she explains what's going on.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There are two schools of thought on this. 

The first is peace at any price. To accomplish that Copper needs to go back to voluntarily doing nice things for C2. 

The bad thing about this approach is that C2 isn't interested in addressing Coppers needs, so he will still want to leave. Going from being engaged and nice to 'filing for divorce' when son departs for school is blindsiding your partner. It's cruel. 

Copper ought maintain a polite, friendly but disengaged posture - and repeat the magic phrase below ad nauseum in counseling:

I can not FEEL connected without a moderate amount of sexual intimacy. I no longer WANT that with C2, because she clearly dislikes it. So for now we are basically roommates. 

------
And when C2 alternately bullies and manipulates via rage and tears he needs to stick with: I'm open to discussing your needs when you are willing to make a determined effort to meet mine. 

She isn't. Counseling will therefore be short lived. 

As far as kids go. Children who have reached maturity and want their parents to remain married for their benefit, are not loving children. 


QUOTE=mary35;13465866]It appears I am late to the discussion and the decision has been made. 

Since it seems the one thing that C2 is good at - is stating exactly what she wants - and what she will or will not accept - and then enforcing it - no matter what or who gets hurt because of it, I think I can say with some accuracy (since she has actually articulated this to you herself) - if you don't go back to the dancing monkey stage - you are screwed! Because that is her one and only purpose in suggesting counseling. She has clearly stated that. She has no intention on working on her side - she is dragging you to counseling so YOU WILL CHANGE BACK. 

So save yourself some disappointment and don't go in with any delusions - and don't bother "trying to make something out of it" - unless that something is what she wants from you. Quite frankly - if you are going to give her what she wants - save the money and skip the counseling and just do it. You know exactly what she wants, so you either give it to her - and things get better, or you don't - and she will continue to find ways to make you pay. Counseling or no counseling - the rules of this game have been laid out on the table and your wife is both the rule maker, the ump, and your opponent. In other words - she wins, you don't! It really seems to be that simple - based on what you have told us. 

As a side note - having just spent two weeks with my grandson who goes back and forth between his divorced parents - I do admire those couples who make the sacrifices to stay in bad marriages and try to make the best of it for the sake of their kids and manage to keep peace in the house, and not create a war zone environment for their children to live around. Unfortunately for many kids - that is not the case - and to make it even worse, the parents continue the war even after the divorce. The biggest causalities in these situations are always the children.[/QUOTE]


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Going from being engaged and nice to 'filing for divorce' when son departs for school is blindsiding your "partner". It's not any more cruel than what your "partner" does.



Fixed it for y'all...


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> There are two schools of thought on this.
> 
> The first is peace at any price. To accomplish that Copper needs to go back to voluntarily doing nice things for C2.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this assessment, Mem. The point I was trying to make is that C2 is still not interested in making the marriage better and that Copper should go into the counseling understanding that she has selfish ulterior motives - and he can be sure that it is not for his benefit or for their marriages benefit. 

If it were me, I think that along with what you suggest above, I would also push for some whole family counseling sessions. Especially since C2 brought the kids into the middle of the issues. If the marriage can't be saved, perhaps the kids can be helped to understand why with a professionals point of view instead of their mothers warped one.
That would be my focus and my one non- negotiable condition in agreeing to this counseling attempt.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> It appears I am late to the discussion and the decision has been made.


Yes. I let her choose whoever she wanted. I'm going to (try to) go in the an open and helpful attitude, but I don't really expect much. But I have removed one complaint by letting her choose. She thought I stacked the deck against her with the person I chose.





mary35 said:


> Since it seems the one thing that C2 is good at - is stating exactly what she wants - and what she will or will not accept - and then enforcing it - no matter what or who gets hurt because of it, I think I can say with some accuracy (since she has actually articulated this to you herself) - if you don't go back to the dancing monkey stage - you are screwed! Because that is her one and only purpose in suggesting counseling. She has clearly stated that. She has no intention on working on her side - she is dragging you to counseling so YOU WILL CHANGE BACK.


I'm very aware of this. As you said, she stated that was the purpose of the sessions. If the counselor can convince me that is the right thing to do, I will try to do so. I don't think any competent counselor will. But if he does suggest this, he better be ready to back it up with some sound and logical arguments because I'm not going to roll over just because he said so. 

If nothing else, everyone here knows I stand my ground when I think I'm right.





mary35 said:


> So save yourself some disappointment and don't go in with any delusions - and don't bother "trying to make something out of it" - unless that something is what she wants from you. Quite frankly - if you are going to give her what she wants - save the money and skip the counseling and just do it. You know exactly what she wants, so you either give it to her - and things get better, or you don't - and she will continue to find ways to make you pay. Counseling or no counseling - the rules of this game have been laid out on the table and your wife is both the rule maker, the ump, and your opponent. In other words - she wins, you don't! It really seems to be that simple - based on what you have told us.


To be honest, I wouldn't mind going back to where we were a couple of years ago. The problem is, I don't have it in me anymore. Then I was holding out hope that if I could just get some help, someone that knew how to reach her, we could turn this around. That hope has been dashed and spread to the winds.

I honestly don't like being this way, and I don't like myself very much for being like this, but I have nothing left to give her.

To be fair, though, she did made another conciliatory (the first when she apologized for calling me out in front of the kids and her outburst at the counselor) move last night. She wanted to snuggle. I held her until she went to sleep, and while it was nice to have the human contact, I didn't feel any connection, warmth or desire like I used to.

The downside is I felt very lonely as she slept, and I still feel a little down today. 




mary35 said:


> As a side note - having just spent two weeks with my grandson who goes back and forth between his divorced parents - I do admire those couples who make the sacrifices to stay in bad marriages and try to make the best of it for the sake of their kids and manage to keep peace in the house, and not create a war zone environment for their children to live around. Unfortunately for many kids - that is not the case - and to make it even worse, the parents continue the war even after the divorce. The biggest causalities in these situations are always the children.


I concur, which is why I am willing to do (nearly) anything to hold this together until C4 is out of school. I think I actually look pretty good in a little red Fez and vest.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> I find it fascinating (and very sad) that when you finally have a handle on things and are on a path to making things better for you - she starts to panic and tries to pull you off that path and put you back on the one she wants you on! You're pulling away from her emotionally seems to really be getting to her.


The thing is, I'm not doing it to punish her or to try to change anything. I walled myself up for my protection.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Damn I'd love to be a fly on that wall when she explains what's going on.


We have a two hour appointment at 1 on Saturday. I don't know what I think about the guy she chose, but at least she can't blame me if it goes off the rails again. 

The lady I picked had two PhDs and was a certified marriage and sex counselor as well as a psychologist. This guy has a certificate of completion from someplace I never heard of and his goal in life is to "promote understanding between the sexes." He does only couples counseling, so maybe it will be okay since that is all he focuses on.

The good news is he is a lot closer to home, he will meet with us on the weekend, and much cheaper. $75 an hour vs $200, so if it doesn't work, we aren't out nearly as much and it will be much less disruptive at work.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> As far as kids go. Children who have reached maturity and want their parents to remain married for their benefit, are not loving children.


I agree with that statement, but I don't know that 15 is mature yet. C4 is mature for his age, but he's still just 15. 

The upside, and this is good news, C3 has applied for a new job (Finally! Initiative!) that she really wants. She is more upbeat and positive than I have seen her in a LONG time. I am keeping my fingers crossed this works out for her. I think landing the job will go a long ways to improving her world view/outlook and her dynamic within the family.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> We have a two hour appointment at 1 on Saturday. I don't know what I think about the guy she chose, but at least she can't blame me if it goes off the rails again.
> 
> The lady I picked had two PhDs and was a certified marriage and sex counselor as well as a psychologist. This guy has a certificate of completion from someplace I never heard of and his goal in life is to "promote understanding between the sexes." He does only couples counseling, so maybe it will be okay since that is all he focuses on.
> 
> The good news is he is a lot closer to home, he will meet with us on the weekend, and much cheaper. $75 an hour vs $200, so if it doesn't work, we aren't out nearly as much and it will be much less disruptive at work.



If your wife actually believes that you have a sex addiction why wouldn't she pick the therapist who is best suited to helping you with your _addiction_? Do you see how she manipulates so brazenly. How can you live with such manipulation? 

I think you should tell her that the other woman might be best in helping you with your sex addiction.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It would be gross professional negligence if the parts unknown guy sang to C2's tune. 

Better understanding is one thing, but at some point the parts unknown guy will have to issue a verdict on the current state of things and his plan if any. If he goes for $75/hr to run out the clock or rack up time it's not to his advantage long term.

C needs to establish up front the purpose of the sessions - not "understanding" but solutions or alternatives.


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## Justinian (Mar 7, 2015)

Justinian said:


> CT, the odds are long, but it is possible that you'll find a professional that can get you both to take a hard look in the mirror.
> 
> Call me an eternal optimist, but I'm hoping that's what happens. Good luck to you both.





MEM11363 said:


> I read her thread. No way. You need to be open to alternate viewpoints for MC to work. She isn't.


I read her thread also. That's why I said "professional" and not marriage counselor.

Any MC worth their salt will likely determine very quickly that C2 needs more help than they can provide, and refer her to a good psychiatrist. Marriage counseling can come later.

Whether they stayed married or not, C2 is likely to live a miserable life if she doesn't get some serious help.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> The thing is, I'm not doing it to punish her or to try to change anything. I walled myself up for my protection.


Which is totally understandable! She ripped off your rose colored glasses and smashed them to smithereens. It will be hard to find a replacement that is as strong as the ones destroyed. I guess you can always fake it if you need too.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> We have a two hour appointment at 1 on Saturday. I don't know what I think about the guy she chose, but at least she can't blame me if it goes off the rails again.
> 
> The lady I picked had two PhDs and was a certified marriage and sex counselor as well as a psychologist. This guy has a certificate of completion from someplace I never heard of and his goal in life is to "promote understanding between the sexes." He does only couples counseling, so maybe it will be okay since that is all he focuses on.
> 
> The good news is he is a lot closer to home, he will meet with us on the weekend, and much cheaper. $75 an hour vs $200, so if it doesn't work, we aren't out nearly as much and it will be much less disruptive at work.


This would be hilarious if it were not so sad. She picked someone who's goal is to promote understanding between the sexes? You may have issues but I don't think one of them is not understanding C2. 

Just out of curiosity - what is his certificate for and what is his level of education. I have a feeling this is going to be somewhat similar to the free counselling you got from your employer. Perhaps not, maybe he will be good and helpful. 

I hope you will pay attention to Mems phrases he gave you and use them.

Good luck!


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> If your wife actually believes that you have a sex addiction why wouldn't she pick the therapist who is best suited to helping you with your _addiction_?


Because C2 HATED the other woman, and the more the counselor pressed, the harder C2 dug in. I, on the other hand, liked her a lot. She was very easy to talk to and didn't engage in psychobabble. We didn't talk about self actualization, finding our true selves, inner feelings or any of that other stuff. It was more like talking to a friend. 

She was also very blunt and call bovine excrement when she heard it. And though I didn't escape unscathed, most of her efforts were focused on C2. I guess that left a bad taste in C2's mouth. 




Anon Pink said:


> Do you see how she manipulates so brazenly. How can you live with such manipulation?


I ignore it. I can't be manipulated if I don't want to be. I know exactly what she is doing and always have. She has been like this for years, on a lot of different subjects. If I can give her what she wants without it negatively affecting me, I do, even if my preference is to not. Otherwise, I don't. I try to meet her more than half-way. It's how I am. I always try to give more than I take, no matter the situation.

That's why I was willing to jump through hoops to get us into counseling. I thought I wasn't "doing it" right and a trained professional would be able to unravel the knot. I selected the best person I could find and followed every suggestion she gave. I gave 100% effort to the cause, but when she said she couldn't help us, everything I was working for, everything I was hoping for, was lost. Now I realize that nothing I do is going to change anything.

What she wants is for me to pick up where I was about 18 months ago. That is when I had stopped demanding sex but was still the loving, helpful, supportive husband. I don't think I can be that person anymore, but if going to counseling makes her feel better, and it keeps the peace, why not go? If she isn't bitter and upset, MY life is easier. 




Anon Pink said:


> I think you should tell her that the other woman might be best in helping you with your sex addiction.


Won't happen. There is no way she would ever return to see the other person, and I'm not sure the counselor would take either of us back. She was quite annoyed with C2. And don't forget, it was $200 an hour. That's not exactly chump change. I was willing to spend it when I thought maybe it would improve our situation, but now not so much. 

Why spend the money knowing it will change nothing? Just to have someone to talk to? It would be nice to have someone to talk to, but not at $200 an hour.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Justinian said:


> I read her thread also. That's why I said "professional" and not marriage counselor.
> 
> Any MC worth their salt will likely determine very quickly that C2 needs more help than they can provide, and refer her to a good psychiatrist. Marriage counseling can come later.
> 
> Whether they stayed married or not, C2 is likely to live a miserable life if she doesn't get some serious help.


That was the first person. She was a marriage and sex counselor, but also a double PhD in Psychology, or Psychiatry, or something like that. Worked with troubled teens, the works. 

I liked her a lot but C2 HATED her. Despised her with a passion and refused to participate or do anything the woman suggested. The harder the counselor pushed, the harder C2 pushed back.

The counselor would tell us to do X, Y & Z, and C2 would go out of her way to not only not do it, but also to make it as difficult for me to do it as she could. 

For example, the counselor said "go on a date." Nothing I did was right. She hated the play, didn't like the champagne, didn't want to spend the night in a 4-star hotel, didn't want to go to the spa, didn't appreciate the chocolates, etc. So I spent $700 on a "romance package" at the local resort and night at the theater, and all she did was complain that we wasted a lot of money and she could be at home playing her game.

You have to want to be helped before anyone can help you. She doesn't want to be helped.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Just out of curiosity - what is his certificate for and what is his level of education. I have a feeling this is going to be somewhat similar to the free counselling you got from your employer. Perhaps not, maybe he will be good and helpful.


His certificate was for completing a course at Walden University. No mention of his level of education.


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## Justinian (Mar 7, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> ... She was a marriage and sex counselor, but also a double PhD in Psychology, or Psychiatry, or something like that.


The difference is important, a psychiatrist must also have a degree in medicine. They have the training to determine if abnormal behavior may be due to a mental or physical condition, or possibly both. 

However, as you say, she can't be helped by anyone if she won't cooperate.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Justinian said:


> The difference is important, a psychiatrist must also have a degree in medicine. They have the training to determine if abnormal behavior may be due to a mental or physical condition, or possibly both.
> 
> However, as you say, she can't be helped by anyone if she won't cooperate.


I don't remember. I know she had them framed and hung on the wall and I glanced at them briefly. It could be one of each for all I know. I do remember her saying something about prescribing drugs, but I can't recall what it was.

What I remember most clearly was how much I enjoyed talking to her and how down to earth and spot on her advice seemed to be. She could clearly articulate why what we were doing was bad (or good) and offered clear and easy to follow advice. I feel that if had actually tried, she could have helped us. 

I don't think anything is "wrong" with C2. So long as I don't press on the intimacy issue she seems perfectly normal. Even now she seems fine... positive and upbeat... and looking forward to trying to fix our problems. She even wanted a cuddle last night. First one of those since I can't remember when... before counseling for sure.


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## Justinian (Mar 7, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> His certificate was for completing a course at Walden University. No mention of his level of education.


A "Certificate of Completion" from an online university? Chances are good that this guy will be in over his head in the first few minutes.

$75.00 an hour could be too much.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Justinian said:


> A "Certificate of Completion" from an online university? Chances are good that this guy will be in over his head in the first few minutes.
> 
> $75.00 an hour could be too much.


Yeah, which is why I'm just going in to see what happens and not expect too much. The lady I selected was reputed to one of the best people in our area. 

If she couldn't help us, I'm not sure who can.


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## Justinian (Mar 7, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> ... I don't think anything is "wrong" with C2. So long as I don't press on the intimacy issue she seems perfectly normal.


I'm certainly not qualified make any diagnosis, but some of the things she has posted on TAM suggested some serious underlying issues.

Of course, as helpful as they can sometimes be, discussions in online forums can only do so much. Even a highly qualified professional could not make an accurate assessment without a few face to face sessions.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Justinian said:


> Of course, as helpful as they can sometimes be, discussions in online forums can only do so much. Even a highly qualified professional could not make an accurate assessment without a few face to face sessions.



It hasn't stopped some of us highly qualified professionals from issuing dire diagnoses like Halloween candy 

Agreed tho, C2 is not in the realm of psychiatry quite yet. She knows what she's doing. Hence she's not easy to get thru... That's the real reason to not see Online U Guy...


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Did you have your first session yet?


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## er15 (Aug 7, 2015)

story from my own life. experienced about the same in first marriage. waited until kids were grown up. did not bother to start divorce.
just find myself someone who can love as i do ( no cheating, i was open about leaving and finding someone ). she asked for divorce,
i pay life time alimony, but is worth it. kids know better who was there for them. stick it out, your time will come as my did. 
( lord has made it short, second one is gone, but i experienced true love for over decade ).


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

ER, very few will say that swapping out of a loveless/sexless marriage did not turn out to be one of the best decisions they made. True love for a decade, or a year, or a month, or a day, is worth more than two lifetimes of what old Copper Top claims he's living.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Did you have your first session yet?


New thread here. 

It has nothing to do with this thread so I started a new one.


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## RodSwelling (Sep 15, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> kristin... I direct this comment to you. This is exactly the type of post that I was talking about. You are SO SURE you are right, that you never consider that there may be more going on than you know.
> 
> The reason I can't leave? Because I dread standing in court and defending myself against accusations of serial raping my wife for twenty years. I don't want to have to explain why I'm not a child molester. I don't want to have to try explain away her accusations of me having one affair after another. I don't want to spend god knows how much money to try to break out of a marriage when she is spending god know how much money to keep me locked in. The kids that used to carpool with my son no longer want to continue that relationship though it was beneficial for all involved.
> 
> ...


I am a paralegal who has sat in many a family court hearing. Allegations of rape and so forth must be proven like any other crime. The burden would be on the state and if the state hasn't even filed charges yet, the chances of them doing so after you divorce are basically nil. The hearings for rape wouldn't even really take place in family court but in criminal court. It sounds to me like you are being blackmailed.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

RodSwelling said:


> I am a paralegal who has sat in many a family court hearing. Allegations of rape and so forth must be proven like any other crime. The burden would be on the state and if the state hasn't even filed charges yet, the chances of them doing so after you divorce are basically nil. The hearings for rape wouldn't even really take place in family court but in criminal court. It sounds to me like you are being blackmailed.


Legally she has nothing. She knows it and I know it. But I don't want to be dragged through the mud over even false allegations. There has been many a man's lives ruined over things like this and I would rather not go through that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

You've given yourself 3 years to extract yourself without a lot of drama. 

So far I'm seeing no evidence of a plan. 





CopperTop said:


> Legally she has nothing. She knows it and I know it. But I don't want to be dragged through the mud over even false allegations. There has been many a man's lives ruined over things like this and I would rather not go through that.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> You've given yourself 3 years to extract yourself without a lot of drama.
> 
> So far I'm seeing no evidence of a plan.



Such as?

I've completed the disentanglement of our records.

I've made the timeline clear with both C2 and the coach, and what is expected to abort my leaving.

Next week I begin a major renovation project on the yard that should (hopefully) increase the curb appeal of our house so that when we have to sell it, it will sell better.

I've spoken to a lawyer and found out my true situation. 

I've arranged transportation for C4 to relieve me of that in case something happens.


I think that is a lot for the last three weeks or so.

I'm not sure there is a lot more to do without upsetting the boat. Don't forget, I now know for certain I have no legal recourse if C2 decides to pull C4 from school and I have no hope of obtaining primary custody, so I must tread carefully. 

What am I missing?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper

That's an excellent start. My apologies. 

Have you gotten the therapist to address the issue of C2 threatening your sons education as a means of extortion?

Real love requires vulnerability. How can you allow yourself to feel vulnerable to an overtly aggressive emotional terrorist? 

And FWIW anyone with a teaspoon of sense is keenly aware the C2 knows there is no correlation between you divorcing her and continuing to meet your primary life responsibilities. Including getting your son to school. Which - will soon be a non issue once he can drive anyway - yes? 

I find it the height of hypocrisy that a person who has jeopardized her own health by a long term series of poor lifestyle choices would question whether you are disciplined enough to continue supporting your son. 

If it was me - I'd directly ask her this in therapy: 

What's your plan after son graduates and you lose your leverage? I'm only asking because based on what I'm seeing so far it's obvious you'd rather play your internet game than engage in this marriage. 




CopperTop said:


> Such as?
> 
> I've completed the disentanglement of our records.
> 
> ...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper
> 
> That's an excellent start. My apologies.
> 
> Have you gotten the therapist to address the issue of C2 threatening your sons education as a means of extortion?


No, not really. Certainly not directly. 

The tough part is that I'm still seen as the one that is bringing all this down on himself. I don't listen. I don't meet her needs. I am unyielding. I'm threatening. 

For the first time, last week, he openly criticized her for some of her choices, such as not helping out around the house and giving me the silent treatment. But in the end, it was ME, by openly stating that I couldn't continue forever the way were were going, that was the cause of her actions (wrong though they may be).

It's a start I guess.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I'd say that I want a written acknowledgement, apology and promise that she will take THAT threat off the table.

That it's not possible to move forward emotionally while be openly extorted. And this IS a go forward thing. It's not the past. It's the present and the future. 

She needs to say: I understand that I'm responsible for creating a marriage Copper WANTS to remain in, not one that he stays in out of fear of the harm I will try to do him in a divorce. 

No offense Copper. But you need to come in to these sessions:
- Calm
- Scripted 
- Ready to rumble (with a smile on your face)

That means going for a long hard run before the session. 





CopperTop said:


> No, not really. Certainly not directly.
> 
> The tough part is that I'm still seen as the one that is bringing all this down on himself. I don't listen. I don't meet her needs. I am unyielding. I'm threatening.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The script isn't very useful if the online dude is running his own script. 

Four years like this? I don't see it happening.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I have no idea who you are referring to when you say: 'the online dude'

Who is that?





john117 said:


> The script isn't very useful if the online dude is running his own script.
> 
> Four years like this? I don't see it happening.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Coach AOL


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Most therapy follows some scripts initially especially if the therapist needs to spend a lot of time getting background etc etc, so it's his script (blah blah man bad blah blah woman no fault blah blah) that has to be ctrl-alt-del'd.

It was a great idea to have a CT script but I would rather see written summary and goals / targets to CT and CT2. after each session plus a weekly update if said goals were met and why / why not...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> I'd say that I want a written acknowledgement, apology and promise that she will take THAT threat off the table.
> 
> That it's not possible to move forward emotionally while be openly extorted. And this IS a go forward thing. It's not the past. It's the present and the future.
> 
> ...



I get what you're saying, but to be that aggressive is only going to make her dig in. I saw her to that with the other counselor... the harder the counselor pushed her, the more she dug in and resisted. I can tell you she would never agree to that because she would be admitting that she was wrong and spiteful, and she wasn't! And how dare I suggest that she was intentionally going to hurt C4 just to get at me! Then she would point out how I always blame her, even though it was me that was leaving, it was me that was jeopardizing his school, etc. I honestly think she believes it too. 

The thing is, she has passive-aggressive procrastination down to an art. Even if I could get her to agree to that I doubt anything would actually change. I can get her to agree to a lot of things... but getting to actually follow through on what she agrees to do is an entirely different matter. It's always "Later" or "I'll get to it" or "Tomorrow." 

In addition to the above, she always has a convenient excuse for why she can't do this or that, and if I press her, then she makes me feel like a heel. She's tired after a long day at work, her back hurts, her hip(s) hurt, she's tired, she's sleepy... You get the idea. If my back was hurting and she wanted me to do something, I might not be in the mood either. Same if I was tired and or sleepy. She knows this so she turns it around on me and I'm the bad guy. 

I've been playing this game for 20 years and I can give you every counter she will make for every move I make. Basically I'm an uncaring <censored> if I press her to do something she doesn't want to do because if I cared I would be more understanding of how (insert excuse here).

To be honest I've given up hope of anything changing and I'm just trying to survive and not make my life harder than it as to be.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> Most therapy follows some scripts initially especially if the therapist needs to spend a lot of time getting background etc etc, so it's his script (blah blah man bad blah blah woman no fault blah blah) that has to be ctrl-alt-del'd.
> 
> It was a great idea to have a CT script but I would rather see written summary and goals / targets to CT and CT2. after each session plus a weekly update if said goals were met and why / why not...


We sort of did this. I was given tasks and she was given tasks. Then we talked about them the next week. 

I did mine, she refused to do hers, or only did those she felt like. Both counselors sort of followed this trend.

For example, she was supposed to back off on the number of hours she played the game. What she actually did was parse his words and follow the letter of the law, not the intent. 

She was supposed to limit her game play to three hours in the evening. That she did. 7-10. But, the other four hours she played, in the morning and afternoon, that wasn't in the evening, so those didn't count. But because she got up so early to play the game in the morning, before work, she was just EXHAUSTED at 10, and went straight to bed and to sleep. 

That annoyed him when she laid it out, so he clarified. She flatly refused, on the spot, to even consider it. Then, to top it, she turned it around and made it my fault that it was even suggested. 

After all, I can do what I want in the evening, why can't she? It's because I'm selfish and I don't want her spending time with her friends because the only person I think about is myself. It's all about me and I never consider what she wants. 

Etc...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I'm not super big on the whole NUTs theme because I've seen it over used. 

N U T - Nonnegotiable unalterable term

That said, leave the 'motive' out of it. And simply frame it as a NUT. She can either commit to continue supporting your sons schooling - in writing - regardless how the marriage proceeds, or you seriously doubt that you will be able to show the type of vulnerability she claims to want. 

That my man - is about the lowest bar you can give a spouse. If she can't get over a bar that low - why pretend? 

And while there are no guarantees in life, it's also true that this could become a BIG BIG deal with family court. Your son is excelling at that school. The court people will see her move as the scorched earth act of a furious child in an adult body. 

She would be seen as directly and objectively harming your son purely out of venomous spite. Judges have a LOT of leeway in these types of situations. And a lot of experience. 

Unfit mother bubbles up in this context. Maybe even worse than unfit. 





CopperTop said:


> I get what you're saying, but to be that aggressive is only going to make her dig in. I saw her to that with the other counselor... the harder the counselor pushed her, the more she dug in and resisted. I can tell you she would never agree to that because she would be admitting that she was wrong and spiteful, and she wasn't! And how dare I suggest that she was intentionally going to hurt C4 just to get at me! Then she would point out how I always blame her, even though it was me that was leaving, it was me that was jeopardizing his school, etc. I honestly think she believes it too.
> 
> The thing is, she has passive-aggressive procrastination down to an art. Even if I could get her to agree to that I doubt anything would actually change. I can get her to agree to a lot of things... but getting to actually follow through on what she agrees to do is an entirely different matter. It's always "Later" or "I'll get to it" or "Tomorrow."
> 
> ...


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> I'm not super big on the whole NUTs theme because I've seen it over used.
> 
> N U T - Nonnegotiable unalterable term
> 
> ...



I suppose I can give it a try tomorrow. I can't screw this up much more.


----------



## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

You have received excellent advice time and again from others but yet from your replies it seems that you really don't want an out to your situation. 

I hate to say this but it seems that you simply love the thrill and attention you are getting from this forum.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I suppose I can give it a try tomorrow. I can't screw this up much more.


Were you successful?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

morituri said:


> You have received excellent advice time and again from others but yet from your replies it seems that you really don't want an out to your situation.
> 
> I hate to say this but it seems that you simply love the thrill and attention you are getting from this forum.


Yeah... I love being told I'm a loser, that I'm troll or that I have no balls. It makes me me feel good that nobody cares if my son is taken out of school that he loves and thrives in, and being thought less of a person because I put my children's interests ahead of my own. 

It's easy for people who don't have children, or whose children are already grown and gone, to in in judgment of me, but I predict that if it were YOUR children, you would be singing a different tune. 

I'm not the type of person that puts my own desires ahead of my children's well being. I'm sorry if that offends you, but that is the way it is and I'm not going to apologize for that. 

The rest of the stuff, the accusations of child molestation, rape, infidelity, and all the rest is secondary, but I see no reason to antagonize her for no gain until I am able to leave.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Workathome said:


> Were you successful?


I will respond to this question in the counseling thread.


Copper


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Coppertop my man, you always sound like someone who stands in a thunderstorm hoping to get struck by lightening.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Copper, I've been there (still here) with the Wicked Witch of Paducah and two great kids. Similar reason.

As my plan pans out (already panned out for DD23) I'm just biding my time and as of now she's aware of it. I'm civil enough and that's all there is.

The only reason I'm pi$$ed is that it shouldn't have come to this. But it did. Bid your time, and make sure you be the best dad you can be to both kids. 

Who knows what happens in xxx months. Keep your cool and if you have a good sense of humor buy a countdown clock. Just don't bear up yourself over it or take blame. 

You have to show her she can't control you C4 or otherwise. That and the countdown clock should be enough.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> Yeah... I love being told I'm a loser, that I'm troll or that I have no balls. It makes me me feel good that nobody cares if my son is taken out of school that he loves and thrives in, and being thought less of a person because I put my children's interests ahead of my own.
> 
> It's easy for people who don't have children, or whose children are already grown and gone, to in in judgment of me, but I predict that if it were YOUR children, you would be singing a different tune.
> 
> ...


No offense taken at all. Despite my disagreement with your actions, I can empathize with you situation for I know, first hand how hard it is to be in such a situation.

My late wife (first wife) more than once threatened me with taking my children away from me when they were young. You know what my response ultimately was? * I looked at her in the eye and said "Go for it. Poison them as much as you want. And once you are successful, I will forever banish them from my life and from my heart."* What do you think happened after that? Her face turned white as a sheet and she never again blackmailed me with our children. Will this work for you? Nobody knows. But if she perceives that you said it with a fair degree of conviction, it just may turn the tables for you.

Many courts accept daily journals as evidence. Consider starting one and documenting every single incident. Inform others of what happens every time your wife goes on a rampage and threatens you with the children. And find an attorney who specializes in fighting for father's rights. Do not discard female attorneys for they can be some of the most aggressive ones you could ever hope to find.

I will try to abstain from further comments and will pray that you find an answer to your situation.


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