# I think she is the one but I have to let go !



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

As I am writing this, I feel I know what the right thing to do is but it is killing me inside and I need to say something to stop me from going crazy. I have been married for nearly 18 years I have four amazing kids boy girl boy girl aged 7, 9, 12, 14. when I was 13 years old I was playing in the woods where me an some friends had made a den out of old branches and an whole in the ground. A girl came with one of our friends who I had not met before that day and I took a liking to her immediately. I passed a message to one of my friends to ask her if she liked me. One of my friends came back to me and said she does like you and she is coming over to see you. I promptly pretended that I was climbing a tree as I was very shy. my friends called me down and shouted she is here to see you. So I came down from the tree and nervously headed toward her. We must have talked for a few minutes but it wasn't long before I found myself kissing her and looking at her lips with my heart pounding out of my chest. I can still see her face and in particular her lips, and I can still remember the taste of bubblegum. It was the most amazing kiss and my first encounter with a girl. She became my girlfriend and I think we were together for no more than a couple of weeks. She went out with a friend of mine shortly after we split and although he was good enough to asked me if I was OK with it, it broke my heart that she was with him and not me. I saw her on and off after that just passing and bumped into her in a night club about five years later where we laughed about how she was my first girlfriend and I was her first boyfriend. It was short encounter and I was with another girl at the time and felt that she still liked me but i didn't want to embarrass or be rude to the girl I was out with. So we parted ways. I didn't see her ever again after that and twenty five years later I have always had that memory of our first kiss with me as clear as if it was yesterday. I move to another country and ended up getting married to a wonderful wife and mother of my children. We have never really had the most romantic of relationships and I have always found it difficult to be romantic with her. I was about 3 months ago now when I saw a picture of my first girlfriend on one of my old friends facebook profile. I was immediately rushed with a sense of excitement and nervousness. She was 30 years older than when we first kissed but she looked as beautiful as the day I met her. I had to send a message to my friend asking if she was on facebook to see if she remembered me. About to months after not receiving a replay to my message. I got a message in my facebook inbox. " Hi [my name] how are you I hope you and your family are OK. It was her, my heart nearly jumped out of my chest. We passed messages to each other every day until we crossed the line. I told her how much she meant to me and how I remembered our first kiss like it was yesterday and she told me that she had feelings for me and that she was thinking about me all the time. our messages got more and more intense and we were out of control with the things we were saying to each other. Eventually the inevitable happened and my wife came across a deleted message from her. She asked me who she was and I told her everything. I have been faithful for nearly eighteen years and although I had not been physical with this woman, I had betrayed my wife with my words for another woman. I now feel like I will never love my wife the way I have loved my first girlfriend and I yearn to be with her. But we could never be together because although she is now single, she also has children and they live in another country with the kids routed in school and a good relationship to there father. My kids are also well routed in the country that I live and it tears me a apart to think of ever telling them that mom and dad no will no longer be living together. I have decided to send her a final message explaining that even though i feel like she is the one for me, it can never be because of the circumstances of our lives but she will always be the love of my life. I am going to seek council but fear that i will not get over my first love and that I may never have loved my wife like I do her. I am trying to forget about what i want and sacrifice that for the sake of my children and the hurt that my wife would go through, but i feel like such a hypocrite now when my wife wants to be romantic and try to make our marriage work, as I can't stop thinking about my first love. The pain of hurting my wife and yearning for my first love is getting unbearable and I am not sure if i can go on like this.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh God! Are you a grown up or a child? GEEZ. 

Block her from facebook and stop this childishness. It's ridiculous.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

ohhh, is that all I have to do ? thank you so much, I didn't realize it would be so easy. Thanks for your mature approach to counseling, I'm sure you will get lots more clients now you have shown people your uncanny ability to make people feel you understand. lol you did make me lough and cheer me up a bit though.
Remind me never to book a session.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Fullcircle~

Are you a mature adult? If so, I would suggest acting like one. I would be remiss as a coach if I let you ignore your vow, your commitment and your covenant with your wife over a fantasy with a girl whom you met as a child. Further, I'd be REALLY remiss if I let you go on and on in this childish tone without naming it and calling it what it is!

This is nothing but a fantasy. Reality is that this person whom you met as a child sleeps with curlers on, snores, has thousands of dollars of college loans and credit cards up the wazoo, has four or five angry ex's bugging her and she has the moral values of not being bothered at all about breaking up a marriage for some "flirtation." 

I'm sorry you don't like having your fantasy bubble burst but that doesn't mean it's my job as a coach to avoid telling you the truth.


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

fullcircle said:


> ohhh, is that all I have to do ? thank you so much, I didn't realize it would be so easy. Thanks for your mature approach to counseling, I'm sure you will get lots more clients now you have shown people your uncanny ability to make people feel you understand. lol you did make me lough and cheer me up a bit though.
> Remind me never to book a session.


Actually, yes, this IS as easy as it gets. Nothing more is necessary. It's very easy. It's a FANTASY that you both created. NOTHING MORE.

However, I'm sure with a little searching, you can find a counselor that will tell you exactly what you want to hear. _Affaircare sides with the marriage_. That's not what you want. It's understandable. You are looking for someone to tell you it's OK for you must leave your wife of 18 years, because of a childhood fantasy. Careful search will turn up anyone who, for a few bucks, will tell you to go ahead with your fantasy. 

Just remember that your dream girl is willing to sleep with a married man. That's the kind of women every man hopes will become his wife!


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> Fullcircle~
> 
> Are you a mature adult? If so, I would suggest acting like one. I would be remiss as a coach if I let you ignore your vow, your commitment and your covenant with your wife over a fantasy with a girl whom you met as a child.


Oh dear, you really are annoyed aren't you. You can call somthing for what it is without being insulting sir. 
I am very much an adult thank you and if you read my post correctly you would see that it started stating that I know what the right thing to do is. My post was not to get someone to justify anything at all. More so I am acting with respect for my vows and commitment to my wife and marriage. I have confessed all to her and we are seeking counsel to try and keep some sort of stability for my children. I have no intentions of leaving. I made a mistake you heartless man. I am an emotional wreck right now because of what I have done and I don't know how to cope or get this woman out of my head. If there was a switch do you not think I would just switch it. What is is like to be in my shoes, you have no clue because you are not me. 
you sound more like you have some issues of your own, what happened did someone dump you and wreck your marriage and now you are on some kind of vigilante crusade to verbal kick that cr*p out of anyone that has thoughts about someone outside of there marriage. welcome to the real world, men have fantasies and sometimes they can become overwhelming and sometimes they can penetrate your world in such a way that it can destroy you and your loved ones. you are such a heartless old fool. you have no idea what i am going through right now. 
I am looking for help to cope with what is going on in my head and heart and support to get me through this.

Oh and btw if you are going to post using two different identities to make it look like other people agree with you, at least have the sense to change your profile picture.
very sad behavior from such an adult.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

Oh and I need to add, I removed her from my Facebook last week, but that doesn't erase her from my mind.


----------



## TNgirl232 (Oct 5, 2008)

Hi fullcircle - while it will not be easy - you have to start putting the thoughts about her aside. I find that its easiest, when a thought pops up, to acknowledge the thought and then purposefully think about something else. If you try to ignore it, it will just become more pronounce as you worry about it.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

Than you TNgirl232, your right I do need to do that and I will need to practice that more than I do at the moment. The biggest problem I have right now though is the battle between the reality of what this must be (fantasy) and thoughts that tell me don't do that cause you will never here from her again and this was a once in a lifetime chance to be truly happy. 
I will work harder at your suggestion. 
Thx again.


----------



## TNgirl232 (Oct 5, 2008)

The fact is you have a good thing with your family - you are happy. You have no idea what this other girl is like now - she is NOT the girl you knew way back when. Her life since then (which you don't know all the details about) has shaped who she is. And ultimately the question is....do you want to be with the kind of person who would willingly help you break up a happy marriage and devastate so many people in the process...you know she'd most likely do the same to you in the future with someone else - right? When the fairytale pops into your head - counter with a good hard dose of reality. Go read all the posts in the infideltiy section and see how those that are the innocent one's lives are forever effected...go read all the posts in the parenting and family forum that are related to divorce and step parents. That's the reality of focusing on your fairytale. If you continue to gllamorize and focus on the 'good' things about it you will end up doing all that you read in those sections to your wife, kids, friends and extended family. All for a fairy tale...and we all know life isn't a fairy tale.


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Oh and btw if you are going to post using two different identities to make it look like other people agree with you, at least have the sense to change your profile picture.
> very sad behavior from such an adult.


If you mean ME by this post, be aware that I am NOT Affaircare.

However, if you wish to talk about this seriously, then it needs go no further than the fact that any affair -_ any_ - is a fantasy, and is based upon the idea that the partners in the affair fill the needs of each other in ways that no other person can. 

Its a fantasy. A dream, a wish. Reality is completely different.

_But it is also an addiction_. And, like any other addiction, it takes time to get past the effects. Withdrawal time, if you wish.

If you are serious about fixing your marriage, simply wait it out. Simply cast any thoughts you have that return out of your mind. (As an above poster stated.) The thoughts will repeat less and less often till you can begin to think more clearly, until the fog that has clouded your judgment has lifted and you can begin to work on your marriage more seriously. Until you get past the 'addiction,' that is, until the fantasy begins to wear off, you'll not go very far in your commitment to the woman who IS the only one for you - your wife.

If you insist on clinging to the fantasy, your pain will continue. And your marriage will suffer.


----------



## stillINshock (Apr 9, 2009)

Hello fullof... I mean fullcircle. First question: Are you about 45? Just wondering...

You clearly are missing something from your marriage if you need to feel such passion from a past romance that wasn't.

And before you jump down my throat let me just say I have been in your shoes - well kind of.
In the past when my H and I were in a bad place (and I later found out that he was in an A at the time) I felt a complete loss and disconnect from him. Though I never actually reached out, I did fantasize about a past boyfriend and the possibility that gee, maybe his life was a ****ty as mine and maybe we could connect and be in bliss like we were when I was in a training bra. 

Seriously,
If you are not happy in your marriage and truly feel you never will be, don't jump to this childhood fantasy just yet. There is clearly something wrong and you can choose to try to resolve it respectfully with your W or you can choose to leave your marriage to find what you need. But be respectful to your wife, your family, and yourself.


IF this childhood friend is "the one" and she's still there 'for you' after 30 years, guess what? She'll be there in a year as well. If she isn't, than you have your answer.

My vote is to completely break communication with this person. Explain that you need to figure things out. If she won't wait for you, then clearly it wasn't meant to be. 

During this time you can look at your current life and decide if its worth 'saving.' 

Really, there are far too many people in harms way to make a quick decision. BUT at the end of the day you have to be truthful and you have to be happy. Why not talk to someone you respect - that knows you and your wife. See if a friend can give you some perspective - you know about 'first-kiss girl.' 

Figure out what your missing in your life. Read His Needs Her Needs. I bet your wife is feeling like she isn't exactly married to the perfect person right now either.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

TNgirl232,
I do agree with you that I don't know this girl now and she may be very different, but I don't agree that I am happy. I think I am struggling so much because it is like a light has been shined on my marriage and the reason that i did this in the first place was because something was missing. I have thoughts and lusts about other women just as any man does and any man who says they don't are lairs. I have fought off those thoughts so many times now I have lost count. But I understand that. I as a man will always lust over other women and have fantasies about being with them. But that is in my makeup as is it in every man. but that is lust and I have learned to control that completely natural desire and stay faithful to my wife for 18 years. my wife and I have spoken about that stuff, she totally understands that I will get thoughts like that and likewise I'm sure she has thought of other men before, but we don't act on them. The problem with this is it does not seem to be of the usual lust desire. which begs the question what am I getting from this that I can't see in my wife right now. That is what scares me. Is it fair to be leading my wife on like this. Is it selfish of me not to let her have the chance to find someone that she deserves. The fact is, as I mentioned in my post. I am not very romantic with her and she wants that from me so bad. She even said herself that if I do not feel that for her and am not sure if i ever have, then maybe she does not want to be with me. The more I look at this the more I see that my emotional affair with this other women is not the issue, and I have to find what is missing in my marriage or neither of us will ever be truly happy and just living a life of convenience. Which I am prepared to do by the way if that is what it takes to protect our kids and and my wife is in agreement. As you can imagine however this would not be much fun for either of us. sorry for waffling on, but I guess that's why I posted here, to purge all of this stuff out.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

fullcircle said:


> Oh dear, you really are annoyed aren't you. You can call somthing for what it is without being insulting sir.


Thank you but I am a lady!   See the female person in my profile picture with the long reddish/brown hair kissing her Dear Hubby? That would be me! See?











> I am very much an adult thank you and if you read my post correctly you would see that it started stating that I know what the right thing to do is. My post was not to get someone to justify anything at all. More so I am acting with respect for my vows and commitment to my wife and marriage. I have confessed all to her and we are seeking counsel to try and keep some sort of stability for my children. I have no intentions of leaving. I made a mistake you heartless man. I am an emotional wreck right now because of what I have done and I don't know how to cope or get this woman out of my head. If there was a switch do you not think I would just switch it. What is is like to be in my shoes, you have no clue because you are not me.


Sadly I am fully aware of the shoes you are in because I--yes even *I*--had an emotional affair with another man. I am fully aware of how easily a spouse begins to neglect their marriage and let love kindlers slide. I am fully aware of how love extinguishers and resentment pile up. I am completely aware of the thrill of having someone else find you amazingly funny, attractive, and interesting. I am thoroughly informed about the covering up and the foggy dizziness--how a Disloyal Spouse will justify the unjustifiable in order to prolong the addiction to the great feeling of the affair. I have been in your shoes, and mister I don't just walk the walk but I talk the talk. 

I don't tell Disloyals to end ALL CONTACT with the other person lightly--because I've done it. I don't speak of the withdrawal from the thrill of the affair without having cried the tears. But you know what else I don't do? I don't act like the fake fantasy is anything but exactly that. It is built on unreality, is *MOST DEFINITELY NOT REAL LOVE*, and is in fact destroying the very people we as spouses made a covenant to protect. My Dear Hubby does not "owe me" happiness--I am responsible to choose how I feel. And I know that no one who is willing to be unfaithful with someone they know is married is anyone of honor or character. *It is NOT a love affair; it is not a "soulmate" and you two are not someone "special." * 



> you sound more like you have some issues of your own, what happened did someone dump you and wreck your marriage and now you are on some kind of vigilante crusade to verbal kick that cr*p out of anyone that has thoughts about someone outside of there marriage. welcome to the real world, men have fantasies and sometimes they can become overwhelming and sometimes they can penetrate your world in such a way that it can destroy you and your loved ones. you are such a heartless old fool. you have no idea what i am going through right now.
> I am looking for help to cope with what is going on in my head and heart and support to get me through this.


:lol: :rofl: Well of course I have some issues in my marriage--any human being who is an individualized adult has issues because they and their spouse are not the same person. But adults work it out and honor their commitment. Adults who are personally responsible look to themselves and don't blame their spouse. Responsible adults look at their spouse and their children and realize that they have a larger commitment to honor than "doing what makes them happy" so they invest in their spouse and in their family, and invest the love kindlers THERE!

And just for fun, here's my life story. I was married when I was 28 years old so I wasn't married "young." I have two children of my own body and I've raised five more so I'm not unaware of the stresses of raising children. Further I'm even aware of the difficulties of having to raise step-children when their parent abandoned them! My first marriage was to a man who was my personality opposite (I am an INFP--he's an ESTJ) and it did end when my first husband choose his mistress over his wife and children. My second marriage is to a gentleman who's personality is complimentary to mine (he's INTP) and we have much more in common, such as both loving children and both being fairly mellow, easy-going, stay-at-home types. I am not one of those folks who says they have a perfect marriage just because I've been married a long time--nor do I anywhere claim to be in a position to judge others. And yes, even *I* slipped down the slippery slope of just being friends and slowly going too far. So nope I'm not perfect and I'm not heartless and I'm not a man and I'm not on a crusade. I just don't put up with stuff that smells like fertilizer without suggesting there may be manure involved. 



> Oh and btw if you are going to post using two different identities to make it look like other people agree with you, at least have the sense to change your profile picture.
> very sad behavior from such an adult.


:scratchhead: As I said--I am the GIRL, LADY, FEMALE in my profile pic. My identity is feminine and I am the founder of Affaircare. So sorry to disappoint you but I'm not Tanelorn. Here's what I think of him though: :smnotworthy:


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

Stillin training bra..sorry I mean shock, sorry couldn't resist some kind of come back on that. That was actually quite funny fullof.. lol
OK, I agree with you 100% and I was replying to TNgirl before I read your response to my post. 
I think you are right and I need too not only cut off all response but tell her that is my intention and that if we are meant to be then it will happen as you said, and time will tell. But at the same time I do need to let go mentally or I will be just riding out the storm thinking we will be together one day, and that will not help me sort things out if there is hope for me and my wife.
Thank you for your response that was helpful. 

just one quick question though... are you completely over those thoughts of your ex now or do you still think about it sometimes.
just asking as you said you have been there, sorry to be so personal but it may help to know that someone has been through this and worked things out.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

lol, that is so funny.. I'm sorry affaircare, please accept my apologizes, I should have looked at your profile properly and, I can assure you, had I have realized, I would not have spoken to you that way. Oh well just goes to show you were right after all, you really don't know what people are like when you talk to them on the internet. I don't like to be angry or offensive to people but you did hit me with a good right hook in your first comments. So one question then, is the guy in your picture, Tanelornpete ?


----------



## elleisforlove (Feb 20, 2010)

End the communication. You do not owe any explanations as to why you are no longer talking to this person you just need to end it. You could start with this _______ I can no longer speak with you as it is a detriment to my marriage. Please do not think this is your fault, I am a grown man and made my own decisions. I am making this decision now for the betterment of my family. Our communication was a mistake and I am ending it now. Please do not contact me any further. I will be deactivating my facebook account and no longer using my email.

You owe this woman nothing and your wife everything. What you have with your wife is real love. Because you have a life with your wife. You have built a life with her. 

Make love to your wife. Go on dates with her. Rediscover what it was that made you fall in love with her in the first place. Hold your babies and when you do so realize that the woman you are betraying gave you these blessings. She is also the same woman who took care of your children and you. Probably putting herself last for the past 18 years she has been married to you.

Everyone has someone from their past that they think of fondly. The key word is that they are from your PAST. And that is where they must stay. Your wife is your present and your future and you need to put your energy into her and loving her.

What would your children think of you if you left your wife to be with this other woman? Or even if you just up and left their mother. I don't think they would approve and I know it would break them apart and change their life as they know it forever.

Stop being so selfish and start thinking about the people that truly matter in your life - your wife and your kids.

Sorry to be harsh, sometimes tough love is what it takes.


----------



## stillINshock (Apr 9, 2009)

full...
humor = important!
glad you seem to be seeing some light.

your question about thinking about the past dude...
no. not the way i did when i was in a really low point. i grasped onto something that made me feel some kind of hope. 
have since seriously snapped out of it. 
but at the same time can happily look back to that relationship as a very special time. not to be repeated with that person ever. but very glad to have had it. that's it.

absolutely nothing wrong with cherishing our pasts.
we're lucky when they help make us stronger.
good luck.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

fullcircle said:


> lol, that is so funny.. I'm sorry affaircare, please accept my apologizes, I should have looked at your profile properly and, I can assure you, had I have realized, I would not have spoken to you that way. Oh well just goes to show you were right after all, you really don't know what people are like when you talk to them on the internet. I don't like to be angry or offensive to people but you did hit me with a good right hook in your first comments. So one question then, is the guy in your picture, Tanelornpete ?


#1--I agree :iagree: with StillinTrainingBra... er... I mean StillINShock that humor is very important. :lol: I'm very glad to see you see some of the humor in this. It is serious but sometimes...I mean seriously step back and look at how we act like middle schoolers sometimes! 

#2--I don't like to be angry or offensive either, and I obviously do accept your apology if you accept mine for hitting with you with a right hook out of the gate. I was envisioning that thing they do in Hollywood like a slap in the face with reality and the person wakes up, and instead I think it came around like just a slap. Anyway you strike me as a person who has their head on okay EXCEPT in the one area of this lady where it's a little wonky and thus my hope to wake up the reasonable part of you. 

#3--The guy in my picture is Tanelorn. You're the first one to notice (or at least ask out loud) so good for you. 

#4--If you don't mind you asked a few other posters some really good questions I'd like to touch on okay?



> I think I am struggling so much because it is like a light has been shined on my marriage and the reason that i did this in the first place was because something was missing.


YEP! You hit the nail on the head. When you and your wife were single and first met there were two things going on that helped your love/lust grow: the two of you were not doing *Love Extinguishers* and the two of you were doing lots and lots of *Love Kindlers*. 

Okay so envision this. The love in your marriage--the fiery passion--is a campfire. There are actions you can do that put out the fire, and those actions are Love Extinguishers. Some are like a bucket with a couple holes and it's dripping water onto the fire--others are like dumping a swimming pool onto the fire. Some examples of *Love Extinguishers* are everything from annoying habits that build up (like never putting the toilet seat down, squeezing toothpaste in the middle, etc.) to being disrespectful of your spouses thoughts and feelings as an equal to being a blamer/faultfinder to having an affair. All these things gradually put out the fiery passion of love. When you first started dating, she wasn't around to even do Love Extinguishers so any time with her stoked the fire, it didn't drip water on it. -BUT- once you got married there was a little nagging about bills (drip, drip, drip) and then she wanted you to turn of the TV and talk to her (drop, drop, drop) and you didn't help out at home enough (drip drop)...then there were BIG arguments where really hurtful words were said (cup of water)...and with the children there was less time for you (bowl of water) and even less time for sex AND it wasn't as enjoyable (bucket)! See how your fire for her has been put out? 

Now, think back to when you were dating. There weren't any Love Extinguishers, and every time you were apart, you could not WAIT to be together When you were together you added things to the fire to make passion blaze and those actions are *Love Kindlers*. You talked together long into the night (kindling) sharing your hopes and dreams and listening to hers (kindling). You gave her flowers and wrote her silly love poems that she loved, and she wrote you love letters (branch). When you got together you did things together that you both liked and enjoyed being with each other (branches). She always looked good and smelled good and did her hair and wore makeup (kindling), and she loved to touch you and kiss -- and you wore your good looking jeans and wore aftershave and were SO HANDSOME (log). See how that fire was blazing? And there was no water on there to stop it. 

SOOO...you're right something is missing. Over the years, you stopped doing kindler actions and increased the extinguishers...both of you did. Now along comes OW who has no extinguishers and she naturally lays on some kindlers. Well your flame is dying out and you don't want to have no flame, so she throws on a few and WHAM you're thinking "Holy Schnikes someone thinks I'm attractive and interesting!" and the fire is started. 

The answer is to look at yourself and say, "Wow what Love Extinguishers have I been doing in my marriage?" and be honest. Maybe even ask your spouse to tell ya if she will. Then stop those extinguishers and instead invest the Love Kindlers in your wife; and hopefully she'll want to learn what makes your fire blaze too and will invest in you. You could start by taking this quiz together! Love Kindler Questionnaire.



> ...are you completely over those thoughts of (the other person) now or do you still think about it sometimes?
> just asking as you said you have been there, sorry to be so personal but it may help to know that someone has been through this and worked things out.


Well honestly of course I think of him now and then. I don't wish him any ill and I do fleetingly wonder how he is or if he's okay or what happened... kind of like  "Huh I wonder how he turned out?" but for me I just make a choice right then to not let my head dwell there. See, I could go on and on thinking about him and obsessing, but that's not honoring my commitment, it's not bettering myself or my life or my marriage, and it's not beneficial in any way that I can see; whereas choosing to stop, choosing to think of something else or do something else momentarily (until I'm distracted --heehee), choosing to do something nice for my Dear Hubby right then instead...making the conscious decision to change my thoughts really actually *IS* honoring my commitment to my Dear Hubby (and is honoring to him), is bettering myself (because I'm a person of character and living by my own morals) and my life (because I'm making happiness where I am) and my marriage (because I'm building something strong with the one I'm committed to), and it is beneficial.


----------



## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

I guess the strange part for me is this wasn't a real relationship say 18-20yrs old or anything I would call a first love. This was 13yrs old a kiss and see ya!!

30 years later you are saying she is your first true love? Sorry, I don't get that at all.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

Hi Affaircare,
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, apology for the slap accepted  . OK, I think you make a lot of sense with your fire analogy and believe me I want nothing more than to be able to look at my wife and smile, and say to myself, I am soooo happy that I am with you. So I will be looking for any kindling that I can find from my side of the fence to do my part. And she has already been gathering a lot of wood since this happened because she wants to forgive me and work at our marriage, what ever it takes. You see she is still totally in love with me and has never had any doubt about me being the love of her life. I spoke with my wife tonight just before she went to bed, and she asked me how I am feeling about all this and she wanted to know what it was that was holding me back from just giving her a hug and being intimate with her. well I was a little quite about it and uncomfortable but then said, lets just speak with the counselor on Wed (I have made an apptmt). I told her I don't want to talk to much because I didn't want to dig it all up again because I was afraid that she might get upset, and right now she was coping really well with it all. She refused and insisted that she was ready to hear what ever was on my mind because she felt she could cope with what ever I had to say, she just wanted to deal with it and try to move on. so I told her the truth. I told her that right now even though I want to hold her and make her feel better, I feel hypocritical and almost like I am insulting her because right now I still think about this OW and it just does not feel right to be intimate with her whilst I am still in that place mentally. It just seems wrong !
I am also afraid of building her up just to let her down again, I don't know if she can count on me to find that passion I want to have for her, and then what ? let her down and hurt her again ? (OK I can almost feel the slap coming again, and I know I deserve it). The amazing thing she then said was, "don't worry about it, I am prepared to take that risk because as far as I am concerned you are worth it. Can you see how amazing my wife is and how lucky I am to be married to her. That just blew me away that anyone could have such grace and compassion in such a devastating time of her life. She is truly an amazing woman. I know I don't deserve her and any other woman would have thrown me out long ago. I hope with all of my heart that my feelings for the OW are clouding my thoughts so much that I can't see what I once had with my wife. I hope this because if that is true, then there is a chance that there was once something there and I am just not seeing it and we just need to find a way to revive it. 
I know I am acting like a confused school boy and some would say I just need to grow up, but in all honesty I am not ashamed of my yearning for true love and romance and I think it takes a real man to admit that.
Now did any of that make sense :scratchhead:


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

oh Geesh,
I know it must sound ridiculousness (that's because it is, I here you say). but that moment has stuck with me for all these years and no matter what happens now, it will always be an amazing and very special time for me. Even before I hooked up with her again on FB, if anyone would have asked me about my first ever kiss with a girl, I would be right back there reliving the moment as I tell the story, it is the weirdest thing and I have always looked at that as being a part of my life that no one can ever take away from me. Yes I had other relationships that were powerful and some of them caused me heart ache and pain. But you can only have one first kiss and one first heartbreak, and they both hit me at the same time. The most amazing feeling to the most devastating feeling right at the beginning of my life. Call me an old romantic if you like but I do think that there is something more that we don't understand about life and the way it moulds us. It's amazing if my life where a movie everyone would say aaahh that is so sweet and romantic, and yet when it is experienced in real life, people just say your childish and you should have grown out of believing that stuff years ago. OK it is very late :sleeping: and I have waffled and am probably gonna look at what I wrote in the morning and want to shoot myself lol but hey, it's good that I am somewhat anonymous on here :rofl:


----------



## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

I can totally relate just not a 30yr+ old memory of being 13 and kissing a girl and then calling it true love? I still can't wrap a pinky finger around that thought.

I have been down this road and know it well!! These are the cliff notes!

Met at 15 she was my world for 2 months so unique/different etc. The she moved!! I met other girls over the course of the years and had a child. She moved back when I was 18 and turned my world upside down I dropped my life for her. After two years of craziness, fun, wild times, and love guilt got the best of me. That and family influence etc I chose the mother of my daughter over her feeling like I had too it was the right thing to do and we broke up very ugly and painful I cried and cried......my choice but alot of outside pressure/influence.

I've thought about her my whole life and we connected on FB after 10+ years I felt exactly what you described unbelievable emotions. We both are happily married now, but she was always that "one" my kryptonite and I reckon still is, but life has moved on. We talked about the past once she conceded I broke her heart that we had something special, but it wasn't meant to be, and this closure helped me. I will always care for her and she knows that now and all is good. We still talk email "How's the kids" "Have a good day" that's as far as it goes NO PHONE CONTACT OR FACE TO FACE CONTACT she will always be super special to me, but we are both married. I still think about her constantly, but it doesn't affect the love I have for my wife or kids. The heart is a big place!! If I ever get divorced I know exactly where I'll be trying to go though!! I don't see how you could consider throwing away your life for something that wasn't even "love" that happened over 30yrs ago that is strange to me.

I just have a hard time understand how you can feel all of that from a kiss and at 13?


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

stillINshock said:


> full...
> humor = important!
> glad you seem to be seeing some light.
> 
> ...


Thx Stillin...
btw you where spot on I am 45.


----------



## stillINshock (Apr 9, 2009)

Well full.
You are so clearly in mid-life crisis mode - so obvious. 
Be comforted? 
And do your W a favor...
When you talk with her about all this - drop the humor and ego at the door. She's going to be in serious pain.
Good luck.
Be kind.
And find the real you again soon.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

OhGeesh said:


> I can totally relate just not a 30yr+ old memory of being 13 and kissing a girl and then calling it true love? I still can't wrap a pinky finger around that thought.
> 
> I have been down this road and know it well!! These are the cliff notes!
> 
> ...


OK, maybe I didn't explain things very well but reading your story, we are not that much different in our situations. I was 13 (nearly 14 if that helps) you were 15, we were a couple for several weeks (which may have been longer but time goes so quick when your that young it seems less) you were a couple for several months. Even after we stopped being a couple, she was part of our crowd if you like, and we all hung out in the garages right outside her house for many years and we knew each other growing up. So we were friends with me having this crush that never seemed to go away. I don't know if you can call that "true love" but what is? 
If true love is measured by your age and the amount of time you were a couple then it is way down there on the list. But if true love is measured by the depth of feelings and time you have those feelings then, she is definitely up there. I guess what I am saying is that I have only defined the moments that we were actually interacting as boyfriend girlfriend. But in reality we knew each other as youngsters for several years. Just also want to make it clear and I am not going to say I didn't fantasize about it but there is no way I can consider leaving my wife and kids for this, that is why this is such a struggle for me. Unlike you, I have not reached that place yet where the thinking about her constantly does not interfere with my relationship with my wife. I can see myself in the future living the way you do now, but not sure that I could maintain the contact in anyway shape or form, because I don't trust myself to keep it at an "exchanging pleasantries" level.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

stillINshock said:


> Well full.
> You are so clearly in mid-life crisis mode - so obvious.
> Be comforted?
> And do your W a favor...
> ...


I know she is in a lot of pain and she knows me well. My sense of humor is a bit of a coping mechanism for me but I am aware that there is a time and a place. Sorry if some of the stuff came across as egotistical but I am just relaying things that she has shared with me. I by no means want to say anything in a boastful manor and certainly don't take it for granted. How do you say you know someone is in love with you without sounding egotistical ? I just know that because she has made that clear to me. I will be careful with my word when I speak to her.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

Hi all, just wanted to say thx for all your input and advice. I spoke for a long time with a good friend of mine last night and he managed to touch on something that may shine some hope on my marriage. Wanted to share this to encourage anyone out there that might relate to the way I behave as I was so encouraged by my new friend Stillin.. - thanks for the encouragement Still :smthumbup: it lifted my spirits when you wrote that on the other thread, I didn't want to post back on there though, as I didn't want to fill Iris's thread with my stuff, and I thought it more appropriate to thank you here where others can hold me accountable as apposed to a private msg you know how susceptible I am to EA's :rofl: (just kidding lol, seriously, I have a weird sense of humor but this time it's because I am in a good mood and feel a little more hopeful about my situation, and not using it as a coping mechanism) 

So anyway my friend and I analyzed my situation over Starbucks (as guys we like to think we can fix anything) and it seems that my reactions to my wife when she wants to be affectionate and romantic are characteristic of someone that is almost resentful, I mean I tend to get annoyed and frustrated because I just don't feel like acting that way with her. So we got to thinking why don't I feel like being romantic with her? why would I act that way ? she is pretty and I must have felt something deep at some point to get married. The thing my friend pointed out that didn't make sense was that I am claiming to be this straight shooting guy an I am always open an honest about myself yet on the other hand I am telling him that I have been living a lie for most of my marriage. So for such an "honest" guy there would have to be a really good reason why I have been able to bite my tongue all these years and not call it for what it is and just up and leave ! So that got me asking myself why have I stayed with her for so long ? Is there something I value so much that I can't just give up on it. Well yeah, I am a very committed and up until this incident, very honorable kind of person that does not quit just because the going gets rough. But in all honesty I don't think I can claim to be that strong of a man and that committed. I mean come on ! eighteen years just because I felt I made a commitment and I must honor that ? nothing more ? I don't think so. There must be something that has kept me there all those years. We spoke about how I feel when she wants to be romantic and I don't, and she is asking my why don't I want to be like that with her? and I said, well I get kinda annoyed, I guess I am pretty stubborn and she is pretty persistent in telling me that I am not being what she wants me to be and we bump heads a lot. So my friend said, so you feel that if you give in and you act that way then you will just be faking it ? (my friend knows me very well) and a guy that likes to be straight, doesn't like to fake it and therefore resents being told to fake it and gets annoyed = not in the mood for being romantic. Many years of a stubborn guy (that means that the problem is largely me) being asked to be something that he doesn't feel and feeling like here we go again every time it happens could lead someone to think that there is no love here. All we seem to do is go around in this viscous cycle of me getting annoyed when the subject comes up and her getting depressed because I am not giving her what she needs and me getting more frustrated cause now she is depressed and I feel like a heartless SOB and then I hug her out of sympathy and then feel even more guilt because now I know it is only sympathy and not because I am in love and then I get depressed and guess what happens when my dream girl comes knocking at the door and I have not been able to show affection to my wife for many years ! So I guess what I am saying is there is hope that the something that has kept us together all these years is something that has been hidden under this viscous cycle that we both didn't even realize was going on. So if I can try to be less stubborn and just go through the motions sometimes and she can be less demanding and give me a bit of freedom to be "not in the mood" and let that be okay, then maybe I will start to come to her to fulfill that desire because I will be doing it for me and not for her.
Just a thought !


----------



## stillINshock (Apr 9, 2009)

Please please please
invest the time in reading HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS.
And please go to: Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice - or google LOVE BUSTERS.
Really. You have no idea how text book you and your situation is. This stuff really helped me.
Its not easy.
Her quest for 'romance' is a basic NEED of many (if not all) women. Its the need for AFFECTION. It is very difficult for a woman to GIVE sex/admiration/friendship when her basic needs of affection and communication are not met. 

Reading these resources is very empowering and provides you BOTH with language to share with each other - so you can understand what the heck the other person is talking about.

This is why you guys are in a viscious cycle. Again - been there - and am there many times. It is a non-stop thing that needs to be worked on. 

Its worth doing this work to find these answers - it will help you figure out your current situation - and your future - with our without her.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

RWB said:


> Wake up, Grow Up, Fantasy is Disney's job not a grown man in a adult marriage. In the light of truth do you really think this is what will make you content and happy for ever after. NO!


Dude, if having a pop at me helps you vent some of the anger you have for what has happend to you, thats cool, fire away.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

stillINshock said:


> Please please please
> invest the time in reading HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS.
> And please go to: Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice - or google LOVE BUSTERS.
> Really. You have no idea how text book you and your situation is. This stuff really helped me.
> ...


Yeah I did check some of this out yesterday, I think you mentioned it earlier. hmmm... not saying it won't be worth a try, I certainly will look at it in more detail, But the affection bit is the one that relates to my situation most, and at first glance of the book it doesn't seem to give me a solution as such. It talks about the woman needing the affection and the guy wanting to show affection but he doesn't know how to go about it etc. My situation is slightly different. My wife wants and rightly so needs affection but for some reason I hold back from giving her that and feel annoyed when I have to give it. Now I certainly know how to give a girl affection and I have no problem doing that if I am "in love", but I don't see my wife (at least not right now) in that light. I mean I don't look at her and feel in love, so if I show any affection it is usually just out of obligation as apposed to affection out of love.
Anyway, that aside, we had our first counseling session last night, and it was quite positive. The guy focused on me quite a lot, asking me about my past etc, and I got the feeling he was looking for unresolved issues with me, which is fine, if he finds something and it can be worked on then I am up for that. My wife and I had a good chat afterwords and we seem to be working together to find a solution instead of focusing on what I did and arguing about it. Man I am so lucky, she blows me away how she has risen above it all and although she is obviously very hurt she is focusing on getting it fixed. That really helps me to see how special she is and how I need to fight for this marriage. 
Also I am finding it easier not to think about the OW when I am focusing on getting things right with my marriage. I know I am waffling on again, but I am finding it therapeutic to just kinda blog it out.


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Also I am finding it easier not to think about the OW when I am focusing on getting things right with my marriage. I know I am waffling on again, but I am finding it therapeutic to just kinda blog it out.


Blog away! Just keep in mind two things:

First, the affair was a fantasy. It built up an addiction in you, and it takes a while for the addiction to clear up. Right now, your thinking is still fogged up from the affair (you just started getting over it a few days ago!)

Second,_ because of the foggy thinking_, you certainly won't 'feel' like filling your wife's needs. At this point, it is better that you 'go through the motions' - don't wait for the feeling to hit you. Your _wife_ needs to feel your affection. As with other situations: the feelings will follow the actions. Act and over time your feelings will catch up.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

Thx Tanelornpete,
Yeah the counselor said the same thing, just go through the motions. He used the analogy of putting money into a bank account, one day I will find it is worth a lot more to that it might feel like it is right now.
It's tough, but more because I feel like a fake when going through the motions but I hear ya and I am gonna do just that.
thx again.


----------



## stillINshock (Apr 9, 2009)

Dude. Are you nuts? How do YOU define 'affection.' 
Did you tell your wife 

"Man I am so lucky, she blows me away how she has risen above it all and although she is obviously very hurt she is focusing on getting it fixed. That really helps me to see how special she is and how I need to fight for this marriage."

Did you push away your ego and sarcastic resentment you have toward her and tell her this? 
This is what I mean by checking your ego at the door.

And guess what? You so didn't read the info because you are so wrong about the affection she needs vs "the guy wanting to show affection but he doesn't know how to go about it" :banghead:
The point of book HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS is that if you can understand what she needs - its not about YOU its about her and you filling a need she has. If YOU fill HER need - she will be inclined to fill your need - perhaps by not having to badger you for affection - and perhaps give you other things you need to make your end of the deal what you want it to be. Don't you see? :banghead:
THIS is where the LOVE comes from. Its not pulled off a shelf "oh, I'll wear the love for my wife today with the brown socks."
No. Its that moment of wowness you had for her in your above statement - then her getting enough of THAT to give YOU perhaps somethings that are missing for you: like being admired "you are so dreamy." Guess what Mr. MLC, you WILL like the book when you read about YOUR needs. 

The author is very clever in that he starts with a guy's need, then goes to the lady's need next. Gets the guys (who generally are NOT the ones finding these books) to start saying "hey, he's on to something." And I bet you'll never guess what the first chapter is about? SEX!!!!!!! Ok, now r u going to read it?:allhail:

Please do tell... Did you tell her the exact words that you were somehow able to tell all of us? Yes or no. This will answer a lot.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

stillINshock said:


> Dude. Are you nuts? How do YOU define 'affection.'


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: Stillin... you crack me up (British phrase) :rofl::rofl::rofl: of course I'm nuts...or I wouldn't have ended up 45 years old, on a pink website trying to explain what is going on inside my head to people that say I belong in Disney land LOL... 

I define affection the way you quoted it from my post...that was me making my effort to show that I can say nice things about my wife, but you are right.. I'm an idiot ! I said it on here but not to my wife :scratchhead:



stillINshock said:


> And guess what? You so didn't read the info because you are so wrong about the affection she needs vs "the guy wanting to show affection but he doesn't know how to go about it"
> The point of book HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS is that if you can understand what she needs - its not about YOU its about her and you filling a need she has. If YOU fill HER need - she will be inclined to fill your need - perhaps by not having to badger you for affection - and perhaps give you other things you need to make your end of the deal what you want it to be. Don't you see?
> THIS is where the LOVE comes from. Its not pulled off a shelf "oh, I'll wear the love for my wife today with the brown socks."
> No. Its that moment of wowness you had for her in your above statement - then her getting enough of THAT to give YOU perhaps somethings that are missing for you: like being admired "you are so dreamy." Guess what Mr. MLC, you WILL like the book when you read about YOUR needs.


Okay... Okay... I'm gonna read it !!



stillINshock said:


> And I bet you'll never guess what the first chapter is about? SEX!!!!!!! Ok, now r u going to read it?


Okay... I'm gonna read it now !!



stillINshock said:


> Please do tell... Did you tell her the exact words that you were somehow able to tell all of us? Yes or no. This will answer a lot.


Okay, I read your post just before I was about to go for a walk with my wife and the dog. So I decided to tell her those words and see how it goes...
"[wifesname], I just wanted to let you know... (worried look on her face) I feel really lucky that you have been so good to me even though I did what I did, and I want you to know that it makes me realize how special you are and why I should fight for our marriage...
At first she gave a sigh of relief...she said she thought there was "but" coming. I said "no...I'm trying say something nice to you" and she said aahh..thank you that was sweet and gave me a kiss" 
Fireworks..hmmm not exactly but it was defo a step in the right direction.

so what does that say about me?


----------



## stillINshock (Apr 9, 2009)

1. read the book
2. keep saying things - that come from within
3. that kiss will turn to more.
nough said.

THAT is affection - and it will even be better when you just do it without this pink site.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

RWB said:


> All, Please don't respond to FullCircle on this post. This post is a ruse with no positive purpose except to excite controversy. Members please help out with the attitude of this post. Shut it down.


hmm... the attitude of this post...
Sorry to disappoint you RWB, but this post was an honest guy writing down his feelings and confusions at a very difficult time in his marriage. Turns out that although this guy had messed up, his wife saw that even though he was weak at this time, she had the strength for them both. She did not criticize him once, neither did she show any bitterness towards the other woman, or try to blame anyone. Even though she was experiencing pain that she had never encounter before, she gave him complements and showed him affection, cried night after night, and took care of his needs in the day. A dedication and love that was so unconditional, that it was simply irresistible. She loved him back home. 

You should try it RWB, my marriage has a long way to go, but we are back on track and looking like it could be better than it has ever been. All because of my wife's *attitude*. You see, anger and bitterness is not very attractive.

Think I will take her to Disney Land for our anniversary.

Thanks for all your comments everyone. It's been a trip.


----------



## sunflower (Dec 15, 2008)

Oh man ok so we all have our first Kiss "LOVE" if you call it that when we are kids and we never forget that cause its so new and everything you always think that was the best thing ever. But 25 years later Its never the same person. And you will never get that first kiss feeling back. I dont think that you should jerperdize your family and wife for that. I have my first crush whatever you may call it on my facebook but that was back in grade school???? this is funny!


----------



## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

Maybe it would be easier for you if you had a chance to see her again. What you love now is the feeling that you felt when you were a child. Is the kiss. But what is behind this kiss, you don't know. Do not leave your imagination to get mixed with your reality. You wife is your reality. She has been there for you for many years, and this girl gave you only a kiss. I don't think is worth risking your marriage, only because of your obsession for this kiss. It was an innocent kiss. Is the memory of her that makes this kiss looks so special, and leave it the way it is, if you do not wan't to be disappointed.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

stillINshock said:


> THAT is affection - and it will even be better when you just do it without this pink site.


OK, I have to say, after that point, I thought I was ready to leave this site and it had done it's job for me. But the point of this particular forum is to help people cope with infidelity, hence the name "coping with infidelity". Now some of you will argue that that I am the bad guy here and don't deserve that, but...well I am coping with infidelity in my life right now and that will take time. So I am thinking there may be some millage left in this forum for me yet.

Couple of things on my mind now:

I need to be clear as some of you (understandably so) don't seem to have read my progress since first starting this thread.

*I HAVE* stopped communication with the OW. And i *AM NOT* thinking of dumping my marriage for the OW.
I am doing my best to try and fix the problems that we have.

Now that said, I need to be straight here with a couple of things, because believe it or not I feel a little like I am the only one living in reality here (with the exception of SIS, although I get the feeling even she will fire a few punches after this, sorry in advance SIS). 

I believe that facing reality (facts) is the only true way that we can move on in life.
So here are the facts:
1. I have not once lied about anything on this thread
2. My first kiss with the OW, was real and actually happened (did not fantasize it)
3. I did have an EA with the OW, to the extent of telephone conversations.
4. It is quite possible and plausible to think that I could be compatible with the OW and not impossible that we could live "happily ever after"
5. It is quite possible and plausible to think that I might not be compatible with the OW and not impossible that as a result we could NOT live "happily ever after"
6. There is something that excited me very much and drew me past my usual resiliency to end up having an EA with the OW
7. What ever that excitement and drawing was, I was not finding it in my marriage.
8. I was aware that the OW would be different from the person I knew all that time ago
9. I am doing my best to keep my marriage together now.

These are the Fantasies
1. I Fantasized about the OW becoming my partner
2. Thinking that every affair is a Fantasy and that your current marriage is the only reality - let me explain this one - To assume that the partner you have is the only compatible partner for you and that if you have an affair then it could never work, is ridiculous and a fantasy developed by people who want to protect marriage (admirably so, we should do everything we can to protect it) and its value's 
3. Thinking that it is impossible for someone to fall in love with someone they haven't seen for twenty five years, just because this has not happened to them (please don't say it has happened to you or you will be admitting that you fell in love, which is what you are telling me is fantasy) 

I don't have problem facing these facts and in fact think it is important that we don't feel threatened by them.
I would be interested (for my own learning) for anyone to correct me on any of these points, and they are not intended to offend anyone. Just to take an honest look at things. 

Go easy on me, I am keen to be honest and stand corrected if it makes sense, but not interested in abusive comments.

Oh and RWB thanks for the good wishes. I agree that those are the vital points that I need to consider.


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Thinking that every affair is a Fantasy and that your current marriage is the only reality - let me explain this one - To assume that the partner you have is the only compatible partner for you and that if you have an affair then it could never work, is ridiculous and a fantasy developed by people who want to protect marriage (admirably so, we should do everything we can to protect it) and its value's


You mistake what is meant by the term fantasy here. You also pretty much fail to understand what is meant by the term fantasy in this context (hence the mistake.)

1) There is NO assumption made that the partner you have is the only compatible partner. I challenge you to go through these threads and find that statement (or implication) made even one time. 

ALL partners can be compatible. Sometimes it take a lot more work. The assumption of 'soul-mates' is an error that assumes a relationship can magically happen where no work ever needs to be done to sustain the relationship. THAT is a fantasy.

2) The phrase 'if you have an affair it can never work' assumes a logical fallacy. Please explain how an affair can work while a marriage is in effect. One or the other has to cease before the other to 'work' - if the marriage ends,_ there is no longer an 'affair' _(except through equivocation on the term.) Statistics show that nearly 90% of those types of relationships end in failure. So , while there is a small chance that you can leave your marriage for another person (thus ending the affair and beginning a new relationship) and be successful, _it is not very likely._ 

Your objection here is built on the notion that someone somewhere said that a _relationship _that STARTS with an affair can NEVER 'work.' Again, I challenge you to find someone somewhere that makes that claim.

Because of that, the statement "...is ridiculous and a fantasy developed by people who want to protect marriage...' is silly in itself. The idea of marriage is that you _gave your word_ to one person that you would work on the relationship. You chose _that person _over all others - even though there were literally thousands of other people you could just as easily have chosen. No fantasy has been 'developed' to protect marriage. All that anyone who defends marriage is saying is that you committed to THIS person and not THAT person, and hence all the work you do to build a relationship must be with THIS person and not THAT person. 

Why? Not because of some mystical magical psycho-connection out of the ether, but because YOU GAVE YOUR WORD, and to do anything against that means you _lied_ to your spouse when you married them. What you really meant was 'until something I like better comes along.' My advice to everyone who is not ready to commit to a marriage 100% is to have the guts to include in their vows to their spouse: "I pledge myself to you till something better comes along." If your spouse won't marry you because of that, at the very least you've saved them from heartbreak later. And you've also been honest (if only that one time in your life!)



> 3. Thinking that it is impossible for someone to fall in love with someone they haven't seen for twenty five years, just because this has not happened to them (please don't say it has happened to you or you will be admitting that you fell in love, which is what you are telling me is fantasy)


Again, no one has made the claim it is impossible to fall 'in love' with someone they haven't seen for twenty years. If you were honest, it wasn't falling in love with the person from twenty years ago, but with what that person became over those twenty years. That 'first kiss' was a memory that you used to start the relationship. It was a pleasant memory from the past (we all have those) - but you acted on what you wanted RIGHT NOW, not what you wanted a year ago, two years ago, three years ago....ten years ago, eleven years ago etc. 

You might want to examine the entire idea of 'falling in love' - if you look at is closely enough, you'll see that it is a fulfillment of what you want - usually something you are missing. When those needs are fulfilled, you feel satisfied and happy, and this is what is commonly called 'being in love.'

But real love is action, not emotion (which, by the way, is ALWAYS a response). Real love is how you treat the person you GAVE YOUR WORD TO in which you treat them with respect, honor, kindness and honesty. And when they do the same for you, you will also feel satisfied and happy - you will 'fall in love' because the NEEDS are being met. Pretty much ANYONE can meet those needs - if they work at it. 

Marriage is unique in that you have CHOSEN one person to work with. 
_
An affair is always a fantasy_ in that it is a dream that somehow this other person will always fulfill the things you want - they 'magically' do what your spouse is failing to do. The reality sets in when the affair is over and the relationship begins - all of the sudden you'll find that NOT every need is being met, and unless THAT person is willing to meet those needs - you are right back in the same boat - hey presto! I met 'the right one' this time - we 'fell in love' and she is my 'soul-mate'.

_An affair is a fantasy_ in that you begin to view your spouse through tinted sunglasses, seeing everything through a shaded reality. You twist facts to make your spouse look worse and worse, while making the other person look better and better.

...That other person who (by the way) is willing to have an affair with a married man...some soul-mate!

_The affair is a fantasy_ in that it is always viewed as 'not a normal affair' - this one is OK, because it makes me feel good. Other people have affairs and they are doing wrong. But not me. In this case, my promise to my spouse is invalid because my affair partner is a much better person (soul-mate, we are 'in love', etc....) so the affair is OK. It's a special instance where contractual agreements with my spouse are negated, where it is right for me to lie to my spouse, etc.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

fullcircle said:


> Now that said, I need to be straight here with a couple of things, because believe it or not I feel a little like I am the only one living in reality here (with the exception of SIS, although I get the feeling even she will fire a few punches after this, sorry in advance SIS).


A couple notes fullcircle: in my opinion there's a difference between "living in reality" and telling the truth. Having been a Disloyal Spouse, I know that you are telling the truth that right now you may be grateful for your wife but not feel much of a spark for her (and extrapolating from other posts, I think it's primarily because she pushes you to do things you do not FEEL and the faking it makes you resent it). This is the truth. You don't "feel it" for her right now...and at least in memory and from your recent affair you "do feel it" for your OW. However that is not reality. More on that below! 



> I believe that facing reality (facts) is the only true way that we can move on in life.
> So here are the facts:


Okay let's go over these--your "fact" in blue: 
1. I have not once lied about anything on this thread This is true--from what I can tell you've been open about what you think is going on even sometimes when you got smacked for it. But quick question--in like your first post you said, "I love my wife who has been by me through thick and thin, built a life with me, and given me children...but I have a crush on a girl I kissed when I was 13yo" (in summary). Right? And I replied "Are you a grown up or what? Act your age!" (in summary). Right? That's because I assume you are a mature, grown man and not a teen...and a man honors his commitments and loves the wife of his youth. 

2. My first kiss with the OW, was real and actually happened (did not fantasize it) I can take your word for this. You did actually kiss her at 13yo. It was more than pleasant and you had an amazing hormone and adrenalin rush at that time. However, this girl whom you saw for the briefest while at 13yo did not stick with you through thick and thin, did not build a life with you, did not give you her vow, did not give you her youth and beauty, and did not make a family with you as your life partner. Your wife DID. 

3. I did have an EA with the OW, to the extent of telephone conversations. Considering that my definition of unfaithfulness might rather accurately be defined as "acting in a way so that affection and loyalty are not committed and dedicated to a private person to whom loyalty is due; not adhering to promises (vows)" I would suggest that you not minimize this. You did have an emotional affair. Period. Your loyalty and dedication is reserved for one person only--your wife--and if you went anywhere else to have your needs met, it is unfaithfulness. 

4. It is quite possible and plausible to think that I could be compatible with the OW and not impossible that we could live "happily ever after" It is within the realm of plausibility but it is certainly unlikely. Here's where the old "reality" part can be really helpful. Reality is that whether she's with someone now (married or even living together) or single (divorced, never been married), she is the kind of woman who's willing to encourage a relationship with a man whom she knows is married. This speaks a LOT to her character, and also to her future behavior with you. See the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, so that means she'd be very likely to be willing to step out on YOU. 

Here is a "reality" shock for you--statistics about how likely you would be to live "happily ever after": 

Psychology Today stated that a whopping 60% of remarriages fail. And they do so even more quickly; after an average of 10 years, 37% of remarriages have dissolved versus 30% of first marriages.
50% percent of first marriages, 67% of second and 74% of third marriages end in divorce, according to Jennifer Baker of the Forest Institute of Professional Psychology in Springfield, Missouri.”
The divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%
The divorce rate in America for second marriage is 60%
The divorce rate in America for third marriage is 73%
Ten percent of extramarital affairs last one day, 10 percent last more than one day but less than a month, 50 percent last more than a month but less than a year, but 40 percent last two or more years. Few extramarital affairs last more than four years.
Frank Pittman has found that the divorce rate among those who married their lovers was 75 percent. The reasons for the high divorce rate include: intervention of reality, guilt, expectations, a general distrust of marriage, and a distrust of the affairee.
I think you get the point right? And that's for second marriages in general--not marriage to the affair partner. So whilst I respect your hope it would go well and you'd live "happily ever after" the chances are EXTREMELY SLIM.

5. It is quite possible and plausible to think that I might not be compatible with the OW and not impossible that as a result we could NOT live "happily ever after" Okay again let's turn to some statistics to reflect "reality" and not what your feelings tell you. 

The Institute for American Values published a very interesting study in July 2002, titled: "_Does Divorce Make People Happy?_" Researchers studied 645 individuals who reported unhappy marriages. When these unhappy people were surveyed five years later, those who remained married reported a far greater degree of happiness than those who had divorced. In fact, 66 percent of those who had stayed together reported that they were happy five years later—compared to a 19 percent rate of happiness among those who had divorced or separated. 
A Psychology Today review of this study reported: "In fact, the most miserable marriages had the most dramatic turnarounds. Seventy-eight percent of people who stayed in very unhappy marriages said that the marriages were currently happy five years later" ("Don’t Divorce, Be Happy," November-December 2002). 

Do you see what this says? No so much that you and your OW are incompatible--shoot I suspect with the right amount of determination and work you could be compatible with anyone! But rather that if you were miserable in your marriage and put that high amount of determination and work into your MARRIAGE, more than 75% go from miserable to happy or very happy! 

6. There is something that excited me very much and drew me past my usual resiliency to end up having an EA with the OW Well here's probably the fog-machine of the Disloyal Dizziness. Full, I bet if you asked ANYONE they would say that their first kiss was exciting. We all had our hearts pounding, palms clammy and felt like we were flying. That is normal. And the emotional affair is not "proof" of how strong your "love" is...it is proof that you slipped into it just like anyone who is vulnerable can. Your wife was not kindling love in you and was extinguishing it by making you do things you did not feel--and thus building resentment. So with her you associated "resentment" kind of feelings. Along comes OW (with whom your main feeling is a memory that was WOW!) and she acts like she finds you interesting, smart, handsome and charming. You open up to her and she is understanding instead of yelling. Can you see how all you got from her was the kindler part? And your wife meanwhile continued with the extinguishers and by comparison the OW looked (and felt) stellar! You slipped. 

7. What ever that excitement and drawing was, I was not finding it in my marriage. Yep--see #6 above. The way to fix this is not to go to another though. The way to fix it is to learn how to rebuild it in your marriage. 

8. I was aware that the OW would be different from the person I knew all that time ago Okay but have you had to put up with her putting her ex first, deal with her kids and driving them all over, put up with her debts from being a shoe horse and getting half the debts in the divorce? How about fighting with her ex for child support and alimony while your own ex fights with YOU about child support? How about her ex stealing the kids as defendants on the taxes after you supported them all year? Or your ex constantly txting or emailing you about things the kids need? See, it's not just "Wow she's that girl from when I was a 13yo but now all grown up!"...there is lots and lots or REALITY. 

9. I am doing my best to keep my marriage together now. I see that you are and for that I am eternally grateful. 



> These are the Fantasies


Okay again let's go over these one by one with your thought in blue. 

1. I Fantasized about the OW becoming my partner Yes this is 100% correct. Again speaking as a former Disloyal, what you envisioned was not real, and I know this for a fact because I've been in your shoes. What you envisioned was most likely the neat stuff like her sleeping on your chest, or cuddling behind her and watching TV, or enjoying each other's company and playing together. Maybe you envisioned her kissing you with that sizzling kiss. Right? But you did not fantasize about her puking because she got so drunk. Or about her screaming at you because your ex called AGAIN! Or her slamming the door because her ex won't pay child support again...and that is reality. 

2. Thinking that every affair is a Fantasy and that your current marriage is the only reality - let me explain this one - To assume that the partner you have is the only compatible partner for you and that if you have an affair then it could never work, is ridiculous and a fantasy developed by people who want to protect marriage (admirably so, we should do everything we can to protect it) and its value's Well first, just see the statistics above. It's not a fantasy developed to protect marriage...it's just one human being telling another human being "Hey here's what's likely to happen." Now personally I believe that there is not such thing as "soulmates" and "The One" because in real life we could decide to commit to a person and make the effort to be compatible (assuming they are not abusive or an addict). Even folks who are complete personality opposites can get along (see the Myers-Briggs Personality Type test).

The reason that folks like me say that affairs are based in fantasy is that we've had years and years of experience and seen it over and over again. The fantasy comes into play when a Disloyal Spouse buys into the Hollywood Myths we've been fed about "Love Affairs." Affairs are anything BUT love! They are usually built on vulnerability and lies and secrecy and hiding, and as a general rule if a relationship is built on falsities, it can not last long. It is a fantasy because it does not address the poopy diapers, uncooperative kids, losing jobs, illness, etc. of a real marriage. 

3. Thinking that it is impossible for someone to fall in love with someone they haven't seen for twenty five years, just because this has not happened to them (please don't say it has happened to you or you will be admitting that you fell in love, which is what you are telling me is fantasy) I believe the main issue here is the term "falling in love." I suspect what you mean may be closer to "falling in lust" or possibly "feeling an erotic rush." Again to statistics! 

Recent medical research has indicated there are definitely hormones related to infidelity. There is one hormone that tends to make a person more monogamous. There is another hormone that is a natural amphetamine that is released when someone first "falls in love"--it's medically what gives us the racing heart and thrill. (See, "The Science of Love" at Your Amazing Brain) So what happens from a medical point of view often is that a person vulnerable to an affair (emotionally) comes along and slips into one or two of those amphetamine releases of seratonin and dopamine. Anyway, amphetamine = rush = feels good so they want more of that! And the affair is (medically) a small addiction to that rush. This is why a Disloyal Spouse has to end all contact so they can go through the withdrawal cold turkey and get off that love zing. 

So you got a love zing 25 years ago and you see the person now and get the love zing again? Of course that possible! But that is a rush of hormonal lust, NOT LOVE. Love has been defined through the ages--in the Bible, by religious folks and philosophers and romantics--but most folks agree that true love requires actions and commitment, and is not just the blaze of lust. 

So I'd say if "first kiss woman" hasn't been with you to put you through college, sacrificed and gotten up early to make you lunch, stayed up late and helped you with work or homework, taken care of you while your sick, figured out a way to pay bills with you, born you your children, made love to you (sometimes smoking hot and sometimes cuddley sexy) then it is not love. LOVE is doing all those things for someone and knowing them intimately, warts and all, and STILL deciding to dedicate yourself to them despite all that.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> You mistake what is meant by the term fantasy here. You also pretty much fail to understand what is meant by the term fantasy in this context (hence the mistake.)


I hope that you are right with this statement, and that it is just a case that I am misinterpreting your previous statements. 



Tanelornpete said:


> 1) There is NO assumption made that the partner you have is the only compatible partner. I challenge you to go through these threads and find that statement (or implication) made even one time.


I cannot find this statement anywhere as you say. And I am happy that you have clarified that this is not what you have been saying and that by definition we agree that it is not impossible for me to be compatible with the OW. 



Tanelornpete said:


> ALL partners can be compatible. Sometimes it take a lot more work. The assumption of 'soul-mates' is an error that assumes a relationship can magically happen where no work ever needs to be done to sustain the relationship. THAT is a fantasy.


In return I also challenge you to find anywhere that I have suggested that it does not take work and have even mentioned "Soul-mates". This phrase has only been mentioned by yourself and affaircare. This was an assumption made by you both.



Tanelornpete said:


> 2) The phrase 'if you have an affair it can never work' assumes a logical fallacy. Please explain how an affair can work while a marriage is in effect. One or the other has to cease before the other to 'work' - if the marriage ends,_ there is no longer an 'affair' _(except through equivocation on the term.) Statistics show that nearly 90% of those types of relationships end in failure. So , while there is a small chance that you can leave your marriage for another person (thus ending the affair and beginning a new relationship) and be successful, _it is not very likely._


Okay, this was maybe not written very well by me, but I was not suggesting that an affair could last successfully. I meant that suggesting an affair could not turn into a lasting successful relationship (after a separation of the marriage).
This said and done, again you have explained that you have not suggested this and that again by definition, *we agree *that although failure rate of such relationships are likely to be higher than the success rates (and I don't necessarily agree with your unsupported statistics) It is possible that the OW and myself could have a lasting relationship. My point here is to stop people making dead end statements and be real about things not to try and convince myself that the best thing to do is to make a go with the OW. I am a realist and don't like being called a childish dreamer by people who are not looking at the reality that the statistics are more convincing that this might happen to them one day.
The thing that you seem to be misunderstanding about the point I am trying to make here is that facing the facts is dealing with the problem at it's core and not not washing over it with the fantasy that if you tell yourself enough times that it isn't true it will go away.
Calling every affair a fantasy and your marriage reality is a very dead end statement that suggests at the very least that it is wrong to pursue the affair because you are not living in reality.
When a more realistic statement would be to say: Although it is possible that the affair could give you a lasting relationship that could fulfill you more than you are being fulfilled a in your current marriage. It is very possible that you will not be any better off than you are and could even end up in a worse situation. That being the case the risk is very high and the damage that you would cause to your family far out ways that risk. Which is pretty much the conclusion I have had from the start.


Tanelornpete said:


> Your objection here is built on the notion that someone somewhere said that a _relationship _that STARTS with an affair can NEVER 'work.' Again, I challenge you to find someone somewhere that makes that claim.


Again you have not disagreed with my statement but tried to explain that I have misunderstood your comments and you are not saying what I thought you said. So again we are agreeing in my statements that it is possible for the relationship to work. 



Tanelornpete said:


> Because of that, the statement "...is ridiculous and a fantasy developed by people who want to protect marriage...' is silly in itself. The idea of marriage is that you _gave your word_ to one person that you would work on the relationship. You chose _that person _over all others - even though there were literally thousands of other people you could just as easily have chosen. No fantasy has been 'developed' to protect marriage. All that anyone who defends marriage is saying is that you committed to THIS person and not THAT person, and hence all the work you do to build a relationship must be with THIS person and not THAT person.


Like I said, if as you have tried to maintain, you are not saying that
1 it is impossible to fall in love after 25 years apart and 
2 it is impossible that your relationship could become something lasting with the OW
Then we have no disagreement. So far.



Tanelornpete said:


> Why? Not because of some mystical magical psycho-connection out of the ether, but because YOU GAVE YOUR WORD, and to do anything against that means you _lied_ to your spouse when you married them. What you really meant was 'until something I like better comes along.' My advice to everyone who is not ready to commit to a marriage 100% is to have the guts to include in their vows to their spouse: "I pledge myself to you till something better comes along." If your spouse won't marry you because of that, at the very least you've saved them from heartbreak later. And you've also been honest (if only that one time in your life!)


"mystical magical psycho-connection" are your words and not mine. I have maintained throughout that I felt real feelings that I equated to love. You even state yourself that the interpenetration of love is all of your needs being met. I certainly don't agree with that, as I said I am a realist and I am very aware that all of my needs will not be met. but there are some core needs that are required before you can except that other needs might never be met. 


Tanelornpete said:


> Again, no one has made the claim it is impossible to fall 'in love' with someone they haven't seen for twenty years. If you were honest, it wasn't falling in love with the person from twenty years ago, but with what that person became over those twenty years. That 'first kiss' was a memory that you used to start the relationship. It was a pleasant memory from the past (we all have those) - but you acted on what you wanted RIGHT NOW, not what you wanted a year ago, two years ago, three years ago....ten years ago, eleven years ago etc.


I agree with you here that I was acting on what I wanted right now and not what I wanted a year/two years/eleven years ago.
And I was falling in love with the person I met on the internet, that admittedly was influenced by some of my past experiences with her but, it is possible to fall in love within a matter of weeks but then find over time that you have major differences that will not allow you to have a lasting relationship. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I have not had that chance to find out.

"You might want to examine the entire idea of 'falling in love' - if you look at is closely enough, you'll see that it is a fulfillment of what you want - usually something you are missing. When those needs are fulfilled, you feel satisfied and happy, and this is what is commonly called 'being in love."

Totally get that, I don't see where you get the notion that I don't ???

"But real love is action, not emotion (which, by the way, is ALWAYS a response). Real love is how you treat the person you GAVE YOUR WORD TO in which you treat them with respect, honor, kindness and honesty. And when they do the same for you, you will also feel satisfied and happy - you will 'fall in love' because the NEEDS are being met. Pretty much ANYONE can meet those needs - if they work at it."

Couldn't disagree more, what you are describing here is commitment and honorable behavior. I agree that these can be the fruits of real love. But if your needs are not being met and you are meeting those needs in your partner then there will be a problem. And I don't believe that those needs can be manufactured by your partner, otherwise you might just as well not worry about who you marry and just make sure you both follow the rules of meeting each others needs and all will work out. Not reality.


Tanelornpete said:


> Marriage is unique in that you have CHOSEN one person to work with.
> _
> An affair is always a fantasy_ in that it is a dream that somehow this other person will always fulfill the things you want - they 'magically' do what your spouse is failing to do. The reality sets in when the affair is over and the relationship begins - all of the sudden you'll find that NOT every need is being met, and unless THAT person is willing to meet those needs - you are right back in the same boat - hey presto! I met 'the right one' this time - we 'fell in love' and she is my 'soul-mate'.
> 
> _An affair is a fantasy_ in that you begin to view your spouse through tinted sunglasses, seeing everything through a shaded reality. You twist facts to make your spouse look worse and worse, while making the other person look better and better.


I think I have address all of this above and you are just repeating things that I have responded to and made clear my thoughts on.




Tanelornpete said:


> ...That other person who (by the way) is willing to have an affair with a married man...some soul-mate!


Never said she was my soul-mate, you did !


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

Hi Affaircare, thanks for your response, It will take me a while to get back to you as there is a lot to cover. I do appreciate your input though and will get to it when I can.
FC


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah no worries FC--get to it as you can or even IF you can. I have to say I suspect we have more or some common ground, and I also see that in a way this is a mental exercise at best because you've made the decision to stay with your marriage. 

Thus, please bear this in mind. I would much rather put thought and or effort into how to build love in your marriage. If you put the effort into your marriage that you would have put into the affair (and your wife did also), I bet you'd be pretty darn happy. 

And btw, I don't condone "faking it until you make it" as that is not really being transparent. Personally I believe that is precisely what has built resentment in you. Nope, I condone starting small and building--and I would encourage BOTH you and your wife to do this. It would be amazingly beneficial for her to learn your love kindlers and learn to do those for you...and likewise to learn the love extinguishers she's been doing and stop doing them! I bet just stopping the part about having you fake it would mean TONS to you...and then some love (and yep, gushy feelings) could be built. 

Anyways, no rush. Get there when you get there.


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> And I am happy that you have clarified that this is not what you have been saying and that by definition we agree that it is not impossible for me to be compatible with the OW.


Yes, we do agree. Even a cursory glance at any of my posts show I never made such an argument - and looking at other similar post,s no other such claim is ever made. The question has never been 'am I compatible with 'X' but _'to whom did I commit myself, as expressed in my marriage vows.'_ My response was written in response to this quote:

"...Thinking that every affair is a Fantasy and that your current marriage is the only reality..."

which you clarify as the assumption: 

"...that the partner you have is the only compatible partner for you and that if you have an affair then it could never work, is ridiculous and a fantasy developed by people who want to protect marriage..."

Thereby claiming that the fantasy involved here is one in which people who 'defend marriage' make the claim (not found anywhere, as you admit) that the ONLY person with whom you are compatible is the one you marry._ In other words, the objection is a straw man._ There was no need to write it at all. In essence I had to point out the logical error, not refute any substantial statement - or not reply at all.

Your clarification twists what may have actually been a correct quote by me (or anyone else who 'defends marriage') into something it never says. I would argue wholeheartedly that all affairs ARE fantasies, and your current marriage is the only reality - but my meaning would have been entirely different. By adding your own 'misunderstanding' - that is, by enthemematically inducing your own propositions into the argument, you tried to make a point where one did not exist.



> In return I also challenge you to find anywhere that I have suggested that it does not take work and have even mentioned "Soul-mates". This phrase has only been mentioned by yourself and affaircare. This was an assumption made by you both.


I have never assumed you used the term 'soul-mate' - nor did I point out or attribute any use of the term by you. That is a common phrase used by many people to justify why their affair is acceptable. It is a concept easily understood, but entirely false. By claiming that an affair partner is compatible with you, while your spouse is not,_ you use the definition of the term_ - without actually using the letters that make up the word.



> ...This said and done, again you have explained that you have not suggested this and that again by definition, we agree that although failure rate of such relationships are likely to be higher than the success rates (and I don't necessarily agree with your unsupported statistics)


I'm not a fan of statistics at all - I prefer the use of logic, but it is really insignificant if my estimation (_around 90%_) is a bit high or low - or that I did not link to a source: you are capable of investigating the truth of my claim, and if I am close - does it really matter if I post where I got it or not? Using that particular form of logic I'd have to be linking to a dictionary for every word I used! The point is that the failure rate is far higher than the success rate - and even if it were not, it still does NOT negate the FACT that _the affair is a negation of a promise you made to your spouse._ It is the enacting of a lie, it is the breaking of a vow. It means you do not keep your word. 

_Your promise to your spouse is infinitely more important than the fact that you may be able to make another relationship work (against the odds). Who gives a rats butt if you can? You are still breaking your promise to whom you vowed to be true._



> The thing that you seem to be misunderstanding about the point I am trying to make here is that facing the facts is dealing with the problem at it's core and not not washing over it with the fantasy that if you tell yourself enough times that it isn't true it will go away.


I'm assuming that you are not reacting to any comment of mine here, since the reason I call a fantasy a fantasy is to properly reveal it's nature. By calling something what it is, you have the tools with which to combat it. Calling a flat tire a bad spark plug won't fix the tire, even though both tend to create rough driving conditions.



> Calling every affair a fantasy and your marriage reality is a very dead end statement that suggests at the very least that it is wrong to pursue the affair because you are not living in reality.


Much as calling a fire a fire, rather than a possible warm ending to the house is a dead end statement.



> Although it is possible that the affair could give you a lasting relationship that could fulfill you more than you are being fulfilled a in your current marriage. It is very possible that you will not be any better off than you are and could even end up in a worse situation. That being the case the risk is very high and the damage that you would cause to your family far out ways that risk. Which is pretty much the conclusion I have had from the start.


That's a justification for an affair. _An affair is always wrong,_ period. Even if things go MUCH better with the affair partner than with the spouse, _the affair is wrong_. It is irrelevant at this point whether the affair causes damage or not. It is _wrong_, even if no damage is caused. The JUSTIFICATION that 'this action is OK because it makes me feel good' is where the fantasy comes into play. It changes what is real (I am cheating) into what is false (I am doing what is 'right'!) If you want to enter a relationship properly, do it the right way from the beginning.



> "mystical magical psycho-connection" are your words and not mine. I have maintained throughout that I felt real feelings that I equated to love. You even state yourself that the interpenetration of love is all of your needs being met. I certainly don't agree with that, as I said I am a realist and I am very aware that all of my needs will not be met. but there are some core needs that are required before you can except that other needs might never be met.


A: I did not attribute the terms used to you (read my posts again!) 

B: I am not sure there is any such thing as a 'false feeling' You may perhaps misinterpret an emotion - but that's an error in interpretation, not emotion.

C: I am not sure what an interpenetration of love is, so I cannot comment on that.

D: It is true that there are core needs that should be met, even before you can 'accept the fact that other needs might never be met.' That last phrase is highly debatable (I am convinced that nearly ANY need can be met if the spouse is willing to work on it). However, the question still remains: why are you turning to someone else to get those core needs met - when your spouse is standing right there, able to meet them? Not only that- but why did you make the promise to her that you would never forsake her if you are forsaking her now? (Note that I am fully aware that this is academic - you claim you are working on your marriage - I am speaking as though addressing someone wanting to continue an affair.)

"But real love is action, not emotion (which, by the way, is ALWAYS a response). Real love is how you treat the person you GAVE YOUR WORD TO in which you treat them with respect, honor, kindness and honesty. And when they do the same for you, you will also feel satisfied and happy - you will 'fall in love' because the NEEDS are being met. Pretty much ANYONE can meet those needs - if they work at it."



> Couldn't disagree more, what you are describing here is commitment and honorable behavior.


The terms are not contrary. Commitment and honorable behavior are _forms_ of love - as is honesty, dependability, etc. Love is the ACTION of meeting the needs of your partner.



> I agree that these can be the fruits of real love. But if your needs are not being met and you are meeting those needs in your partner then there will be a problem.


True. Never argued to the contrary. In fact, this is largely the reason why affairs begin. 

However: what is 'real love'?



> And I don't believe that those needs can be manufactured by your partner...


I am not sure how anyone can manufacture needs - perhaps a very clever person might convince them self that the must have something that they did not have before, nor even desired before, but for the most part, needs are part of the general personality of the person. 

If on the other hand your argument is that it is impossible for a person to fill the needs of another person - then what was the point of looking for someone that made you 'feel' happy? Wasn't that a fulfillment of a need? 



> otherwise you might just as well not worry about who you marry and just make sure you both follow the rules of meeting each others needs and all will work out. Not reality.


Actually, that IS reality. It's been done throughout the centuries in arranged marriages. Note, I am not arguing for or against arranged marriages, but I do wish to point out that ANY time an example can be found to refute a specific statement, it means that statement has not been given a valid logical structure. Marriage is commitment. In modern times people tend to look around for people that fill their needs without effort - and then tend to concentrate on developing a relationship with that person. 

But as I pointed out earlier (and offended you, for some reason) the alternative to working on filling needs tends (by apagoigic reduction) into mysticism - the "mystical magical psycho-connection" posited above. Either needs are met deliberately - with the specific purpose of delighting the person to whom they are given - or else there is a mystical connection. At best, the only other added term would be pheromones - but that's impossible over the internet (as we have it today).

If they are met deliberately - then how can you argue that "...just make sure you both follow the rules of meeting each others needs and all will work out..." is not reality? What is the alternative? 



> Never said she was my soul-mate, you did !


Never claimed you said that! You implied it in your sort of drooly initial post.


----------



## Broken_Angel (Feb 21, 2010)

hiya FullCircle.

i have been following your post and i must say that i feel alot of people that have responded to you have given you a very hard time.

as if your not punishing yourself enough for what you have done, you dont need people giving you such a rough ride. people you expected would give you advice and try and help you through this (no disrespect to most of the people who have posted replies)

i just want to say that i understand enirely how you feel. 

my story is a little different but the feelings afterwards are the same.

i had an emotional affair with a guy, not a childhood sweetheart, but a guy that i met through my job.

the reason it was an emotional affair and not a full affair was that he lived in Northern Ireland whilst i live in Northern England. so it was never going to be a full affair and the happy ever after was never going to happen(unless the sea dissappeared at some point). but i did think i loved him. he was all i could think about and i couldnt wait until next time i spoke to him. i got butterflies in my tummy when we spoke and he was just amazing.

my Hubby found out about it and it broke his heart. but we managed to get past it

that was 18 months ago and i still think about the other man. i found out recently that he had got engaged to someone and i was gutted. 

i found that as hard as it was, cutting total contact was the best way to get over it. the feelings do disappear and its not as prominant in your mind after a while. then the next time you think about it you will think "wow i havent thought about that for a while" and you will feel pleased with yourself.

i dont agree that you should scold yourself for thinking about it, or try not to think about it, cos i suppose in a sense it is like quitting smoking... the more you think about not doing it the more your gonna do it. 

i really hope that you can get through this.

and know that there are always people here to help(people lik me) when you fell its getting too much.

im probably going to attract alot of stick for this post but i dont really care. im entitled to my views and nothing anyone can say will change them

may i also just add that one of your posts made me cry a little bit.... when you said..... " Sorry to disappoint you RWB, but this post was an honest guy writing down his feelings and confusions at a very difficult time in his marriage. Turns out that although this guy had messed up, his wife saw that even though he was weak at this time, she had the strength for them both. She did not criticize him once, neither did she show any bitterness towards the other woman, or try to blame anyone. Even though she was experiencing pain that she had never encounter before, she gave him complements and showed him affection, cried night after night, and took care of his needs in the day. A dedication and love that was so unconditional, that it was simply irresistible. She loved him back home. 

You should try it RWB, my marriage has a long way to go, but we are back on track and looking like it could be better than it has ever been. All because of my wife's attitude. You see, anger and bitterness is not very attractive.
"

you wife sounds like an amazing lady

i wish my husband could be like that and see through our most recent problems the way your wife has, but thats life. 

good luck with everything babe. xx


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

Broken_Angel said:


> hiya FullCircle.
> 
> i have been following your post and i must say that i feel alot of people that have responded to you have given you a very hard time.
> 
> ...


WOW.. Thank you so much for your kind words BA. I didn't take your comments as a reason to feel justified in what I have done but more to face the reality of how I feel and accept that so that I can start to figure out how to fix things. That is exactly what I am trying to get across.I think you are right that cutting the communication is the way to go but at the same time not to punish myself for still thinking about her and wanting to contact her again. The reality is, that it will take time to heal and I will always hold a special place in my heart for her. That said, I consider that once I had children, I gave up my rights to think about myself and what I need anymore and to put them first. That is the same for the vows I made when I got married. I promised my wife till death do us part. That being said if we didn't have children then I might have justified in my heart that even if I make a promise as big as that to someone, if I find later on in life realize that that was a mistake and both our lives (not just mine) would benefit from being apart. Then I think that would be reason to move on.
The fact is, if I gave up on my marriage, then I am only thinking of myself (and accept the fact that the odds are against it the other relationship). So I am left with putting others around me first and their needs. I promised my wife with my vows and I brought my children into this world with her, so we have commitment to give them the best of what we can give them. 
This does not change the fact that i feel in love with another woman and does not mean that I have to bury it under the carpet and hope it will go away. I will work at appreciating the amazing woman that my wife is and treat her well. If one day I get the feelings that I have just been experiencing for this other woman then that would be the ultimate happy ending. But I am under no illusions that this can be manufactured and it will have to be something real.
Thanks again and don't worry about what other people my say about your honesty on these posts. 
It is honesty that will help you to address the core problems and not bury them for a while until they come back later with bottled up vengeance.
I feel for you in your situation but hope you can benefit from my experiences. You are still young and have a lot of years ahead of you. Stay strong and true to yourself, know who you are and what kind of a man it will take to fill your needs. Never have children with someone that you are not 100% sure that you are right for each other and know in your heart of hearts that you will always be satisfied (not always jumping with joy and not that you wont go through trials but there needs to be a core sense of, I am in the right place, if you know what I mean)
Like I said my wife is an amazing woman and I am very lucky that she is treating it in the way that she is. If she was not dealing with this the way she is, I don't know what would happen. 
Keep faith that one day you will look back at this time and be thankful of the things that you learned and you will look into your partners eyes and know that he is the one for you.
All the best BA.


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> im probably going to attract alot of stick for this post but i dont really care. im entitled to my views and nothing anyone can say will change them


Not at all BrokenAngel - this is pretty much dead on the money. I see no purpose in spinning your wheels, smacking your self on the head and yelling 'shouldn't a done that' as if that will somehow fix things. It won't. Working on your marriage is what fixes things (the marriage is what's broken!)

Anyone who has even been through and affair as the 'guilty party' will spend a lot of time regretting their actions, even wondering what 'could have happened' or 'what might have happened' - all part of being human.

Facing up to what you did, taking responsibility, and doing all you can to make your marriage a place where such a thing is not likely to happen again is the task that lies ahead...


----------



## Monday25 (Jan 27, 2010)

Dear FullCircle,

the girl from your childhood is an unsustainable infatuation. it is impossible to love someone if you do not know them. what is her baggage? does she keep a clean home, pay bills on time, and if she would cheat WITH you, why wouldnt she cheat ON you?

When you catch yourself thinking of her, think of the reasons you love your wife, think of the great times you have spent together. 

Do you love your wife? Immerse yourself in showing her WHY you love her. Get into it!! Send silly txt msgs, bring home dinner... do the dishes! Make her your world. She was at one time...right?

Sometimes life is not all about fireworks...THEY FEEL GREAT&LOOK AMAZING...but remember...they fade as quickly as they appeared.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

Monday25 said:


> Dear FullCircle,
> Do you love your wife? Immerse yourself in showing her WHY you love her. Get into it!! Send silly txt msgs, bring home dinner... do the dishes! Make her your world. She was at one time..


That is the million dollar question M25. And I hope the answer is yes, but can't deny not feeling that right now. I send silly msgs to someone I want to be silly and romantic with and they are my world because of what it does to me when I think of them. My kids are my world because of what it does to me when i think of them, but it is hard to make your wife your world when you think of another woman all the time. My hope is that over time as Broken_Angel said, the thoughts get further apart leaving me room to focus on my wife (and I have already started to sense that since cutting contact with the OW)
Thx for you thoughts though.


----------



## fullcircle (Mar 8, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Not at all BrokenAngel - this is pretty much dead on the money. I see no purpose in spinning your wheels, smacking your self on the head and yelling 'shouldn't a done that' as if that will somehow fix things. It won't. Working on your marriage is what fixes things (the marriage is what's broken!)
> 
> Anyone who has even been through and affair as the 'guilty party' will spend a lot of time regretting their actions, even wondering what 'could have happened' or 'what might have happened' - all part of being human.
> 
> Facing up to what you did, taking responsibility, and doing all you can to make your marriage a place where such a thing is not likely to happen again is the task that lies ahead...


Hi Tpete, 
I think that we are not too far apart in our thinking as AC mentioned. It seems that there are a couple of things that we differ on that in all honesty will not make a huge difference to the outcome of my marriage and how I will deal with it. I think you hit on our differences, when you mentioned arranged marriages. You see I have always looked at that concept with dumbfounded eyes. To me that is like a pot luck approach. If you think differently about that approach, then that is fine, and I respect that. It just means that this is probably what is dividing our thinking. 
Thanks for all of your thoughtful input though, I appreciate it sincerely.


----------



## Monday25 (Jan 27, 2010)

fullcircle said:


> That is the million dollar question M25. And I hope the answer is yes, but can't deny not feeling that right now. I send silly msgs to someone I want to be silly and romantic with and they are my world because of what it does to me when I think of them. My kids are my world because of what it does to me when i think of them, but it is hard to make your wife your world when you think of another woman all the time. My hope is that over time as Broken_Angel said, the thoughts get further apart leaving me room to focus on my wife (and I have already started to sense that since cutting contact with the OW)
> Thx for you thoughts though.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

You know I am so glad to hear that. It was kind of driving me buggy to think that maybe you were taking this as us giving you grief. Disagreeing somewhat? yes. Giving you grief to judge you? no. Not even close. Man I'd be the *last* one to cast that stone! 

May I talk turkey to you? I'm going to bear in mind that my Dear Hubby reads and posts here so I don't want to be honest but not thoughtless ya know? I would be lying to say that the other man doesn't occasionally cross my mind and I do wonder if he's okay or how he is. I'd also be lying to say that our marriage is perfect and what bugged me before is amazingly fixed! Ta da! 

Nope. In real life I had to first experience some tears and pain over missing the fun of being thrilling to someone and not feeling very stunning anymore. A good part of what pulls a person into an affair is that in their marriage it's "routine" feeling at best (probably worse) and the OP is like "Holy smoke someone thinks I'm amazing!" Just that alone is a strong pull. So first you have to sort of mourn the loss of that feeling--and just discipline yourself to not contact. Just don't do it. Distract yourself if you must. 

During that time the loss is great and the marriage isn't all that sparkly and it can feel a lot like faking it. I chose to not fake it but also not be a cranky-pants. No I didn't instantly "fall in love" with Dear Hubby just because he interrupted my affair but even I remembered that there are some things here for which I'm very grateful...and even in my Disloyal Dizziness I did remember being really good friends with my Dear Hubby and on that level "liking" him a lot! We are actually quite a lot alike and have a lot of the same interests. 

So that's where I decided to start rebuilding: on liking him. He kept telling me to think of him as a friend and he was my best friend and stuff like that, so I thought, "Okay let's see if that's true" and I spoke to him like I'd speak to a girlfriend. Now as you can imagine, some doesn't translate well from "girl to guy" and there were times he'd get stuck in "thinker mode" rather than listening with his feelings, but all-in-all it was good for him to hear the real live truth and good for me to know I could tell him! So that was a good start...and right about then some thoughts of the OP started to slow down but when they did pop up, I just disciplined myself to not let myself hang on and daydream. You know? 

Next, I tried doing things with him that I like that he also likes. Okay not deeply "romantic" and smooshy but things like car shows and then burgers at the 50's diner...or watching movie marathons in the living room. Do you know what I mean a little FC? Those things are not red roses and tingly but they do make it so that I was associating good stuff and fun with him. Thus at least thinking of Dear Hubby = warm memory. This was good progress because honestly prior to that thinking of Dear Hubby = resentment and hurtful stuff (or in other words Love Extinguishers). So yeah we did each fill out the questionnaire about Love Kindlers, and talk about Love Languages and stuff like that, but honestly I didn't feel ready for a big roses and candlelight romance yet. I did feel ready to stop the Extinguishers and work through those!! So we did that questionnaire and that one was hard because it's hard to look your spouse in the eye and say, "You put me second behind others" without them saying "I do not." But we did get through it and when we were both agreeing to be mindful of the one we do and stop it...just that helped A LOT toward building love! I mean for our whole marriage I felt like he wouldn't stand up for me, and the first time he actually did I was thrilled, happy, and RAWR!!  

Nowadays we still work a lot on the kindlers and the extinguishers both. I would be lying now to say that I'm not in love with Dear Hubby because he's done a lot! He stuck with me, showed commitment, honored his vow when it got tough (yeah, true) but even moreso he made the effort to actually see his part and work on it. We connect more now than we ever did and it's deeper and more consistent. We know how to (and sort of when to) discuss things that are hard. Lots of stuff has changed but the biggest is that yep I'd say I love him and I'm in love with him. Sometimes it's a "crazy blaze of white hot passion" love and sometimes it's a "deeply appreciative long-burning ember" love but both are good and both are gonna show up in a longer term marriage. 

I don't know--it seems there are some smaller things we disagree on but I hope that you know we appreciate you back. Your honesty has been really helpful, I think, in getting people to discuss what's really going on in their head.


----------

