# So Many Years Ago...



## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

Hello TAMers,

First of all, this is a long post, and I will not apologize for it. It is a rant, truths and wisdom I’ve been forced upon, and most importantly a look into what infidelity leaves behind in the long term. Any questions I ask here will be rhetorical. I am not looking for advice. I want to shine a light of warning on what infidelity does, and what people who try to reconcile can expect. Please use this as an example of what reconciliation can be like. I’ve been married for over 19 years, only about 10 of those worth experiencing. Warning: I am jaded, but I’ll try to play nice. 

So many years ago...approximately 9 from the writing of this post, I died. Clearly not a literal physical death, but a death nonetheless. I hacked my wife’s Facebook on suspicion that something was going on, and I was not prepared for what I found. More on this later. 

Full disclosure: I claimed to have divorced in earlier posts. Go back and check. They’re still there. I’ll be here when you get back. I was ashamed to still be married, even on the mostly anonymous interwebs, so I lied. Sorry. 

I’ve been here for a very long time. I dislike it every time I read these forums. Yet I come back, hoping to find answers, only to be rewarded with more frustration. I’ve too often seen how absolutely terrible we are to each other from the staggering amount of cheating and infidelity that seems to plague us at every step, to witnessing the sh!tty ways we talk to each other on these forums. I’ve participated in much of it too. 

To be clear on my participation I usually advocate divorce, and full truth exposure. If you can reconcile knowing your spouse was having mind blowing ****s with Karen the sitter or Toby the childhood friend on your bed while sharing the most intimate details of your faults, misgivings, and their hearts post coitus, then more power to you. 

But you do deserve to know how your marriage was violated so you can make an informed and intelligent decision. The so called “gory details” do have a time and place, but I believe ultimately withholding them is really just further disrespect, rug sweeping, and a violation of trust than any real help to the relationship. I’ve even seen so called experts suggest that these details provide no real help to a relationship. No sh!t?! Who would have guessed that fooling around with somebody who you’re not married to would provide bad, and therefore destructive, news for the relationship? Ya lern sumfin new eryday. Just because the truth hurts doesn’t mean it’s not what is needed though. Maybe this thinking that a betrayed spouse can’t handle the hard info is argument that we should be focusing more on prevention of the destructive influence of extra-marital visitors than arguing that a couple who wants to stay together should do so at such incredible cost. I mean, if we can’t handle the truth of how exactly our marriage was ruined, then we have bigger problems with this infidelity thing than we like to admit. Besides, wasn’t it lies and partial truths that got most of us here in the first place? But I digress.

How many are still reading? I hope most of you. I drop the knowledge that I dislike reading your...our forum, yet I hope you don’t take it too personally. There’s only one poster I’d say I dislike greatly, and I don’t think he’ll even read this after all these years. Most of you are good folk in my less than humble opinion. I’ve liked the advice you give, even when I disagree with you. You seem to actually care for the lost souls that find themselves broken and bleeding on the forum doorstep, wayward and betrayed alike. Go ahead, give yourselves a little pat on the back. I sincerely mean that. 

On a related note, I did read a post by a seemingly remorseful wayward recently, and I also saw some unproductive posts directed at her. She is down. She’s taken her licks. Is it our duty to enforce excessive justice upon her, or is it to help her find her way through a hard time? The sad thing to me is that I agree philosophically with those of you who attacked her in your frustration. I get how you feel. I have intimate knowledge of how you feel. I can’t see an adulterous wife, even just on TV, and not want to bash every POSOM with a dose of their own medicine (Or was that a baseball bat? Note: I’m not advocating violence, but I won’t lie about how I feel), and then send the WW packing back to their stupid AP. If he’s so wonderful that you want to ruin your marriage permanently, then you deserve each other. Wanting something doesn’t make it right though. Our spouses wanted something, and now we’re all here finger-banging our keyboards in the hope that maybe we can find some relief in our incredible pain, well I am anyways.

Which all of this reminds me of the dilemma of professionals and forums like this, what they actually do for us, and where they lack. Now I don’t go to other forums very often. They all pale in comparison to TAM. This is really about TAM and not all forums. I’ll elaborate on each. 

On professionals. I don’t much care for professional therapists, or any other name you want to give them. I think they can and do help at times, but they also have some glaring deficiencies. They often have very narrow views of what infidelity really does to a relationship, making them inadequate to the task. Or they favor one spouse over the other. Or they want to talk about other problems in the marriage as if the affair resulted from some fault of the betrayed or the marriage itself, and not simply the sh!tty choices of the wayward. All marriages are imperfect, yet not all are plagued by infidelity. Talking about what the betrayed did to contribute (they love that word) to the affair holds about as much wisdom as talking to grieving parents about child safety after their child died by running into traffic. Does this kind of information help? Sure, it may help prevent future problems, but what is being done to actually address the problem of what happened? Infidelity is less symptom than it is problem. I can handle pretty much any problem thrown at me that people use as an excuse for infidelity, and I’m sure most of you would too. Actual infidelity though? Rub that sh!t in, and it won’t wash out so easy. 

Now forums. Forums can be great. On the positive side you get unfiltered truth about what others like you are going through. You get no nonsense advice. On the negative side you get unfiltered truth and no nonsense advice. What can help us process the choices we need to make most can also be a source of dissonance or even trauma. It is both for me. Every time I come here I leave with at least a little less faith in humanity. Further, as of the writing of this post I looked at the Focused Topics section here. CWI has almost 15,000 posts! That’s staggering. The next closest topic is Sex in Marriage at over 9,125. That’s almost a 6,000 post difference. Not surprisingly both forums deal intimately with sex and marriage. The point here is that on a forum devoted to marriage the most discussed singular topic is what we’re doing to each other to tear it apart. It’s heart breaking. 

Back to my story. Nine years ago I felt something was wrong in my marriage, so I hacked my wife’s Facebook. I knew if something was up, there’d be evidence there. She spent considerable amounts of time there. I still hate that site, you know. It has been used to destroy so many people. Anyhow, I found messages between her and an old friend we’ll call Richard.

Richard was one of my wife’s old crushes from her teen years. He moved into her neighborhood as a 20 year old and struck up what I would consider was a very odd relationship with a 15 year old girl. He suddenly moved on after a while in the neighborhood, nobody has ever told me why. 

Fast forward 3 years and I come into the picture. I met my wife through my sister. They danced on the high school drill team together, and I was infatuated with my sister’s friend. Little did I know she liked me back. Long story short, we start dating and eventually get married.

During dating I learn about Richard, and I do not like him right off the bat. She kept pictures, and even a pea coat he left behind in his hasty retreat from the neighborhood. I felt something was off in my mind, but I was young and wrote it off as illogical jealousy. Nothing more. Everybody has their past, and is entitled to it right?

10 years of what I would consider blissful marriage pass, and the cursed pea coat followed us as we moved into an apartment, then three different houses. In this third house, the world came crashing down upon us. I was working swing shifts during this time. She was working for a doctor’s office during the day, and we don’t see much of each other. And who decides to make a return into my wife’s life? Richard.

Recently divorced and reeling from some time in jail for putting a loaded gun in his ex wife’s mouth, this gem of a person decides its time to rekindle his relationship with my wife. He reaches out to her, and she responds. “He’s alone, and needs my help. Nobody else is helping him" she rationalizes. Sure, he dealt illegal drugs and ran a failing barber shop. What could go wrong? He certainly wouldn’t try anything inappropriate or take our money. He was trying to turn his life around. Right? Right?

I think, “I should get in front of this. I’ll tell her I’m uncomfortable with him, and that she’s fine to have him for a friend, but that I don’t trust his intentions.” I told her my thoughts, I didn’t like him being around even as a friend and I asked her to never ever spend time alone with him or hide conversations with him, or our marriage would most certainly suffer. Problem solved, right?

Well, the messages I found on Facebook told a different story. They weren’t explicit and full of detail, but they did mention how my wife shouldn’t have gotten out of his bed. You know, that’s the one sticks out the most these nine years later.

I come home from work, and immediately ask her what’s going on between her and Richard. She lies. I ask again, turning on my computer. She knows I know. She pauses. “Just ****img tell me!" my mind is screaming inside. She finally says, “Nothing good.” Turns out it was a full on PA, the worst of which began about 3 days prior to my discovery. 

My emotions are full bore out of control at this point, not to return to a state of “normalcy” for about two years. You read that right. I didn’t even out for two years. Had I known what was in front of me, I would have left in that moment. “It was good while it lasted. Thanks for the good times. See ya later bye!”

Nope. Instead I tell her I love her, and I don’t want to lose her, but that I will not stand by while she decides who to be with. It’s either him or me. “Why is this a decision being made AFTER marriage?!” my mind starts yelling again. Again she pauses. My mind, “What the serious ****?! You’re caught cheating by the one who you made promises to remain faithful to, and you pause to think about it?!” It’s funny what you remember, and what matters all this time later. She finally says she chooses our marriage. Neither of us sleep at all that night...surprise

The next day she says she needs to tell him it’s over. 

Okay. Use Facebook, I assume.

Nope. Why, that’s a silly assumption, Ret.

Without telling me her plans she goes to his barber shop the next day(he was also living there at the time). The guy who helped ruin my marriage clearly deserves better than a text break up. He needs to hear it in person. Sure, he should never have been there in the first place, but he has feelings too. 

I drive by to give him a “friendly handshake” and a piece of my mind, and to my surprise I see her car parked in front of his sh!t hole. Yet another lovely memory tattooed upon my brain for those quiet moments when anxiety finds tranquility, and drops in to say “hi”, or maybe it’s “**** you”. I’m not sure. 

You can guess what happens next. Trickle truth, me blowing up and calling her all sorts of things. I mean, I was downright cruel. She needed to suffer with me, or so I thought in these awful moments. Suicidal ideation (turns out I’m a cutter too), more TT, gory details. If you’ve read above, you know where I stand on this. It didn’t hurt any more than finding out there were in fact gory details to begin with. “He’s a drug dealer, just like you thought, but I lied to you about this months ago”, etc, etc. The details, and there are many, here don’t really matter. What matters is that it happened. 

From the first moment of D-Day she would say, “It’s all my fault.” She became very insecure without me around. She wanted nothing more than to repair our marriage. I’ve never much doubted her devotion to saving our marriage. She has also never blamed me for what happened. She has been very good in the Wayward department for how to behave in order to show remorse. 

I often reflect on the moment we were married. I remember looking in her eyes and seeing the closest thing I’ve ever seen to an angel. Conversely I remember standing at the kitchen sink and looking at the dishes the morning after D-Day. She came up to me and I looked in her eyes. I don’t remember feeling much beyond numbness. With tears in her eyes she said, “Please don’t look at me like that.” I immediately realized my old perception of her was gone. I didn’t see the angel I married 10 years before. I saw an imposter who’d come into my marriage and cut off its legs. All the remorse in the world won’t heal that. 

Many people like to use words like “scar” and “mistake” when they talk about affairs. These words are wholly unsuited for the task they’re given. Words like atomic destruction, disfigurement, permanency, adulteration, choice, and many others are far better for the job. Do you know what it means to adulterate something? It means to make it impure, usually by adding another ingredient. This results in an inferior object that has fewer qualities than what it possessed previously. This is the root for the word adultery. 

How do you remove this new ingredient in your marriage? There’s the rub. You can’t. I’ve heard the saying, “You can’t unring that bell.” And the people who say that are right. Many people also like to hand out wisdoms like, “It will never be the same again.” Thank you Katherine Obvious. I find, “It will not likely be the same in a good way ever again” to be a little more accurate. 

Nothing made this feeling of tainted affection more apparent than sex. Two days after D-Day she suggests we need to have sex before we lose that connection too. Well, we had sex. And we did the whole hysterical bonding thing. And I despised it. I hated the feeling of needing sex with her, but then when we did have sex I could only think about her being with him. Mind movies during sex, are not a good thing. Compound that with the strange behavior of almost daily hysterical bonding, and you have a recipe for setting a pattern for some very destructive sex. I remember standing there in the dark after sex hoping she couldn’t see the hurt and disgust on my face. Just to keep sex from happening on our first anniversary post D-Day I went into the hotel room and I repeatedly punched myself in the leg until I couldn’t walk. The physical pain was obvious when I was looked at. I spent a week and a half on crutches to avoid the torture of sex. Don’t worry. It gets better. Sex now isn’t as painful. I can usually avoid the mess of mind movies, but it’s nowhere near the connection we had before. 

I mentioned I had suicidal ideations. I was also very physically self destructive, in case you haven’t noodled that one out yet. I’ve actually had a loaded revolver in my mouth, with my finger on the trigger, trying to overcome that instinct to live, when I remembered an old boss I had before this happened. His mother had killed herself. He was tortured through school, and had a lot of emotional problems from it. I thought of my own kids, and I knew I couldn’t do that to them. 

I still have thoughts of death, and often don’t really care if I live or die. As long as my family can cash in on the life insurance, then all is well. Suicide is off the table for now however. 

I’ve also stopped punching things (usually stone or brick) until my hands were covered in blood. I have scars on my knuckles from this, and if I hold up three fingers with my left hand, like what the Boy Scouts do, I can’t straighten my middle finger anymore. 

Did I mention that I did most of this destructive behavior whilst we were going to therapy? I’ve seen a therapist for both my own behavior, and my marriage. I’ve taken drugs for my depression. I know I have ADD, but I often wonder if I’m bipolar. Funny thing is I wasn’t very unstable before this experience. Neither the drugs nor the therapy seemed to help me much long term. 

My wife also had some very odd behaviors during this time. Things that don’t fly in the common occurrences of infidelity. One such instance was she and I were at a stop light. She was driving. Suddenly she begins to hyperventilate and panic, like she’d just seen a ghost. I try to figure out what’s going on, and I look to see Richard in his car driving toward her office. It was only toward where she worked, but it could be he’s going anywhere, right? We follow, and he leads us right into her office parking, where he scans her normal parking spots, and then drives on. When confronted about it he claims he was dropping his cat off at the vet. A stop he never made, as I verified it with my friend’s wife, who worked for the vet near there at the time. Why would anyone have such a reaction to an AP though? This wasn’t the only time she had such a reaction. I won’t go through them all, but why would a woman be afraid of somebody she had an affair with after the affair was exposed?

Eventually she comes to me and says it wasn’t an affair. It was rape. She says she never wanted it. Real Elizabeth Smart kind of stuff. Now this really messes things up. How self centered am I to drone on and act like a reckless teenager when she’s been through far more than I have? I now have more questions than she has answers, and I feel like I’m going insane. 

I won’t go into detail on what we still talk about to this day, but know I still have a lot of confusion over this. 

I believe that something scary happened between my wife and Richard, but either the affair damage has already been done to me or I don’t know enough to make an informed decision about what actually happened. Probably both. At this point I don’t know if I’ll ever be certain with what actually happened. 

Today I’m typing this out on my phone, watching the battery drain, and I keep having the thought that if I believed I could replace my wife with somebody just as beautiful (she is a very pretty woman), who loves me back like she tries, and hasn’t cheated on me, then I’d be much more comfortable. The problem is that I don’t believe I could find that. Grass is greener and all that sh!t. And if I did, then I’d likely sabotage it with all my emotional baggage. This whole ordeal has me far more ****ed up than I was when it started. 

You might say, “Ret, she loves you. She has stood by and taken your pain as you threw it at her. She has been there when you couldn’t work. She was there when you hated her, and she’s still there trying to love you. Be grateful for what you have, and stop focusing on the one thing she did wrong.”

You’d be right, except I don’t focus on it. It, meaning just knowing what she did, just has to remind me its there and any good moment instantly turns sour. We were on vacation at Lake Powell recently, and she was so excited to be there over her birthday. She’d never been there, and she loves to hike and explore. I was feeling content and happy that I’d made something good happen for her, and then here comes good ol’ memory to remind me that things aren’t so good...nine years later. You know I once heard that any problem that won’t last past five years isn’t too big of a deal. I guess this is a big deal. 

So many so called fixes for this involve “realizing we’re all imperfect and accepting those imperfections”, or “focusing on the good”, or other such platitudes. I knew my wife was imperfect before. She spent all the money on the credit cards and never told me until it was time to pay the balance. My love for her was unfazed. I focused on the good before too. I valued her fidelity, and found great value in my marriage through her faithfulness to us. It was us against the world, and we had something more, something better, than what I saw most others had. Now I struggle to find value in waking up. What happens when the very things you valued most in something (my marriage in this case) turn and become the very things you dislike it for?

I have some final thoughts to share. Some say a marriage can be better after an affair. I don’t think any marriage is better off for having had an affair, or the marriage was likely terrible to begin with. Sure, affairs can be wake up calls, but it’s not the only wake up call available to the desperate. I also acknowledge that there are possibly couples who are happy together post affair. The unicorn couples. If they exist, then they are the exception, not the rule. I can assure you that I’d be much happier in my marriage having never experienced this. Happy or unhappy, all this doesn’t change that affairs cause destruction, and leave more than just the couple involved affected. Wake up calls can, and should, be far less destructive. Can you repair this affair damage? I’d say you can a little. This even has its limits. So long as memory persists, then the damage will be felt. Sure, you don’t have to constantly punish your wayward spouse, and you shouldn’t. But I can assure you that you, the BS, will be punished frequently and when you least expect it. Remember that stupid thing you said when you were 13 and it comes to you late at night and keeps you from sleeping? That thing’s got nothin’ on this sh!t storm.

There it is. My story, sort of. My opinions. Things I’ve learned. Take them. Do what you want. I don’t much care, except for those of you this can help. To you, I hope this helps you make a decision that makes you happier. I hope you can find value in life. Don’t do what I did and find yourself stuck. I haven’t given up hope on a happy life, but I think I have given up hope for a happy marriage.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

My throat is aching reading this. I cannot even imagine, except I can because your writing is so raw. THIS stuck out to me:

"Talking about what the betrayed did to contribute (they love that word) to the affair holds about as much wisdom as talking to grieving parents about child safety after their child died by running into traffic."

It rings true, very true.

I am so sorry for all of the pain.


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## hubbyintrubby (Jul 5, 2019)

Damn @Retribution ...thank you so much for posting that. I'm sorry for everything you've been through in the regards of everything you just wrote out. You are a strong individual and I respect that and you very much.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

@Retribution does the thought of divorcing her now ever come to you, or are you committed no matter how miserable you are?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@Retribution it hurts. Damn.

Not many triggers for me on TAM. But that triggered me. 

Best regards to you and your family.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> @Retribution does the thought of divorcing her now ever come to you, or are you committed no matter how miserable you are?


In short, yes it has. For the details I refer you to this.



Retribution said:


> Today I’m typing this out on my phone, watching the battery drain, and I keep having the thought that if I believed I could replace my wife with somebody just as beautiful (she is a very pretty woman), who loves me back like she tries, and hasn’t cheated on me, then I’d be much more comfortable. The problem is that I don’t believe I could find that. Grass is greener and all that sh!t. And if I did, then I’d likely sabotage it with all my emotional baggage. This whole ordeal has me far more ****ed up than I was when it started.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> @Retribution it hurts. Damn.
> 
> Not many triggers for me on TAM. But that triggered me.
> 
> Best regards to you and your family.


Thank you, and to you as well, sir.

On the subject of triggers, my intent was only to convey the feelings of betrayal. 0 I truly hope this isn’t traumatizing to anyone. 

On the flip side, the fact that I’ve written something in a way that connects with anyone tells me I accomplished my goal.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Retribution said:


> On the flip side, the fact that I’ve written something in a way that connects with anyone tells me I accomplished my goal.


The world would be a better place if there was not a single person this story would connect with, that it was 100% fiction and not borne of your own painful experiences. 

I hope that writing this out and the conversations it will create will be of help to you today, tomorrow, next year, and beyond.


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

You are way too attached to her; You should never let a woman have that much control over you.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Originally Posted by Rubix Cubed @Retribution does the thought of divorcing her now ever come to you, or are you committed no matter how miserable you are?

In short, yes it has. For the details I refer you to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retribution View Post
Today I’m typing this out on my phone, watching the battery drain, and I keep having the thought that if I believed I could replace my wife with somebody just as beautiful (she is a very pretty woman), who loves me back like she tries, and hasn’t cheated on me, then I’d be much more comfortable. The problem is that I don’t believe I could find that. Grass is greener and all that sh!t. And if I did, then I’d likely sabotage it with all my emotional baggage. This whole ordeal has me far more ****ed up than I was when it started.



In my humble opinion your part in this exchange has now made you out to be the resident posterboy for the 'sunk cost fallacy'.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

BruceBanner said:


> You are way too attached to her; You should never let a woman have that much control over you.


On the contrary, it is my detachment that causes such dissonance. I was much more attached, and I believe it was a healthy relationship, before the infidelity. We were happy. It wasn't always a cake walk, mind you. I don't wish to paint a picture of perfection, but things were damn good.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

syhoybenden said:


> In my humble opinion your part in this exchange has now made you out to be the resident posterboy for the 'sunk cost fallacy'.


While I am by no means immune to the "sunk cost fallacy" I fail to see where I've indicated such in my writing. Sunk cost in my case would be, "I've devoted 19 years to this relationship, ergo I must stay." 19 years is an example of the sunk cost. Staying in an unhappy relationship for the irrecoverable cost is the fallacy. I do not stay for any lost value that cannot be recovered. In fact I'm arguing that the lost value is precisely the reason to leave. I've stayed for many reasons which I have not mentioned. Perhaps I'll give those reasons when I have more time.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Did you not get her to take a poly? Why?

Does her Facebook posts coincide with her rape version of events? Do you have any reason to believe the rape story? How does it fit with her sadness to leave his bed?

The panic attacks seem it indicate there is more than you know.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Retribution said:


> Sunk cost in my case would be, "I've devoted 19 years to this relationship, ergo I must stay." 19 years is an example of the sunk cost. Staying in an unhappy relationship for the irrecoverable cost is the fallacy.


Bingo! You've already got it.

Sunk cost is only about money to an accountant.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

I wish that every person who contemplates infidelity (there are some on this forum trying to justify it to themselves) and every person who has committed it could read this post.

The raw pain and the ugly details are necessary for someone to understand the full depth of the searing devastation that an affair causes.

Thank you for sharing this deeply personal insight.


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## rugswept (May 8, 2019)

we all have heartbreak and enduring pain from the A. 
i had to accept an 18 month LTA my wife was involved in to save the M. 
for so long i "knew" but was in complete denial about. 
she was my little angel and i got back a porn star. it took so much from my M. 
eventually i confronted her and told her to stop lying and she admitted it. 
i was numb for a while and didn't hit bottom for 5 months. it was retching. 
it is still ongoing pain for me, DECADES later. 

when i look back and compare with things that happened and compare the pain: 
1. best friend dies from dementia. pain compared to A, no comparison 
2. W mother runs off to bang boyfriends when I was 5 ... pain compared to A, no comparison
3. the tragic sudden death of my son's coach, and a good friend... pain compared to A, no comparison
4. death of my father. pain compared to A, no comparison. 

all that said, your post is one of the most heart wrenching i have ever read on all these forums. 
it is such a life changing event. they'll never get it and never understand the depth of the enduring pain. 

live for your children and do the best you can to live with what is left of your M. 
in your case it was a severe betrayal, starting with the attachment to the P coat to the very end. 
i share your pain. i wish you the very best. it's what we all share.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> Did you not get her to take a poly? Why?


I did not. At first it was ignorance to do such, then money, now I don’t think I’d really learn much new. Without the ability to actually extract raw data from a human mind, I don’t think I’d gain much in the way of revelatory information.



Chaparral said:


> Does her Facebook posts coincide with her rape version of events? Do you have any reason to believe the rape story? How does it fit with her sadness to leave his bed?
> 
> The panic attacks seem it indicate there is more than you know.


Her messages do coincide. She actually didn’t write much. Everything that clued me in to what was really going on, without exception, came from him. Phone and text records also confirmed that he was making contact about 3 times for her 1. 

I do have reason to believe her rape story. She never indicated sadness to leave his bed. It was all him. In the words of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, “Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.” While all possibility has not been exhausted, and likely never will, abuse on his part is not improbable nor out of his realm of behavior. This guy is currently on the county’s most wanted list where we live, which is at least a big part of why he left the area 5 years ago, I suspect. 

One of my best friends is a police detective. He’s been trained to find the inconsistencies and behaviors of those who lie. He once told me what he found odd about this whole predicament. First was her willingness to take all the blame initially. Liars don’t normally do that. Abuse victims do. Second was her fear of being near him. Also an indicator of abuse. Her physical reactions to recalling time alone with him? Same things. His opinion was that she wasn’t lying, which surprised me. I would have thought him to be one of the most doubting of my friends. So yes, her panic attacks are an indicator of something. Could be his abuse, could be something else. My big problem isn’t that I don’t have reason to believe her. It’s that I’m not certain on any of this.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

aquarius1 said:


> I wish that every person who contemplates infidelity (there are some on this forum trying to justify it to themselves) and every person who has committed it could read this post.
> 
> The raw pain and the ugly details are necessary for someone to understand the full depth of the searing devastation that an affair causes.
> 
> Thank you for sharing this deeply personal insight.


Precisely why I finally tried to put this out where it can be seen.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

rugswept said:


> we all have heartbreak and enduring pain from the A.
> i had to accept an 18 month LTA my wife was involved in to save the M.
> for so long i "knew" but was in complete denial about.
> she was my little angel and i got back a porn star. it took so much from my M.
> ...


You say this in one of the most heart wrenching posts you’ve read, yet I do not believe my experience to be all that unique. My point is that you are right that this is something we all share. I want to paint a terrible picture of infidelity for all to see. I hope it will do at least one marriage good to see such despair.

Your list above is similar to one I’ve considered in the past. I remember watching some neighbors deal with losing an infant to SIDS. I was envious of them. I wanted to switch tragedies. I’ve since changed my view on this, but watching this one year post D-Day was an experience of the surreal that caused no famine of confusion for my already raw emotions. Short of losing one of my children, I still would rather deal with most deaths or other tragedies in my life than an affair.


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## ShatteredKat (Mar 23, 2016)

Thank You for this post - so SPOT on!


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Retribution said:


> You say this in one of the most heart wrenching posts you’ve read, yet I do not believe my experience to be all that unique. My point is that you are right that this is something we all share. I want to paint a terrible picture of infidelity for all to see. I hope it will do at least one marriage good to see such despair.
> 
> 
> 
> Your list above is similar to one I’ve considered in the past. I remember watching some neighbors deal with losing an infant to SIDS. I was envious of them. I wanted to switch tragedies. I’ve since changed my view on this, but watching this one year post D-Day was an experience of the surreal that caused no famine of confusion for my already raw emotions. Short of losing one of my children, I still would rather deal with most deaths or other tragedies in my life than an affair.


You write beautifully. It is definitely a gut-wrenching read.

While your experience with this may not be unique, the extent and duration of your pain likely is, as is your penchant for self harm as a coping mechanism.

I am going to take a slightly different approach with you. Please understand as I say this that I am not without sympathy.

There are underlying issues that have nothing to do with infidelity. Addressing said issues would make it easier for you to cope. 

You are where you are because you want to be. Sure...nobody wants to experience infidelity. 

Here is another platitude for you: it's not about what life does to you, but rather what you do about what life does to you.

You've chosen to respond by planting your ass firmly in the victim chair. You have found comfort in it, while occasionally rotating over to the perpetrator chair in an effort to have some semblance of a feeling of control... and to address your resentment towards your wayward wife.

This is understandable...for a while. But you are long past that. That tells me you find comfort where you are, or you wouldn't still be there.

So the real question I have for you is what are you actually prepared to do about it?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

I am confused. 

If she was abused and raped, why did she go to his place in person to say "goodbye"?

Did you go inside to confront them together at that point? Or did you just drive away.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Retribution said:


> Your list above is similar to one I’ve considered in the past. I remember watching some neighbors deal with losing an infant to SIDS. I was envious of them. I wanted to switch tragedies. I’ve since changed my view on this, but watching this one year post D-Day was an experience of the surreal that caused no famine of confusion for my already raw emotions. Short of losing one of my children, I still would rather deal with most deaths or other tragedies in my life than an affair.


Dawg, I'm going to be honest with you and I'm sure you would rather see somebody else die or suffer a tragedy than you have to deal with a wife who cheated. You kinda strike me as a person who intentionally makes a former aspect of their life uncomfortable and unpleasant beyond a reasonable "grieving period". Your old lady decided to sample an old school mate and you willfully decided to stay with her. You're like a man who wears a hair shirt and complains the skin irritation is the worse pain he ever suffered. Remember, you choose the action, you choose the consequences. You alone have decided the "pain" from her stabbing you in the back is less than "unknown" you'd experience if you walked away. And you really want to walk away; hence the reason this crap keeps kicking you in the ass. 
I've always said to get a divorce before any decision to reconcile (aka, staying with a cheater). The divorce wipes the slate clean and if you get back together, its an obviously willful and overt decision on your part.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

TDSC60 said:


> I am confused.
> 
> If she was abused and raped, why did she go to his place in person to say "goodbye"?
> 
> Did you go inside to confront them together at that point? Or did you just drive away.


One of the many things here that causes my uncertainty. I wish I had all the answers. 

I knocked on the door after she left. Nobody answered, so I left a note on his car calling him a coward...and other things. Needless to say he and I are not on friendly terms.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

Retribution said:


> I did not. At first it was ignorance to do such, then money, now I don’t think I’d really learn much new. Without the ability to actually extract raw data from a human mind, I don’t think I’d gain much in the way of revelatory information.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How abusive was this PA with the OM? Probably a lot.

Though the OM bad boy persona drew your WW in to this PA and kept her there. 

It seems the Dect. friend is on the right track.

I think part of your problem is that you never got the whole story from your WW.
Never having all the facts prevents the BH's mind from processing and understanding
what happened during the affair.

No processing no healing.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Did you at least take out some of your anger on that peacoat?

I think you're selling yourself short on what your future could hold, but you don't seem to be asking for advice because you have decided this is the way it will be, so I just posit it as my opinion.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Retribution said:


> Hello TAMers,
> 
> First of all, this is a long post, and I will not apologize for it. It is a rant, truths and wisdom I’ve been forced upon, and most importantly a look into what infidelity leaves behind in the long term. Any questions I ask here will be rhetorical. I am not looking for advice. I want to shine a light of warning on what infidelity does, and what people who try to reconcile can expect. Please use this as an example of what reconciliation can be like. I’ve been married for over 19 years, only about 10 of those worth experiencing. Warning: I am jaded, but I’ll try to play nice....


This is a very sad post. I really would like to dialogue with you to try to help but I want to respect your wishes that you say you are not looking for advice. If you think about it you have kind of insulated yourself from asking for advice by posting as having been divorced, that is not a judgment but just a point. So the only question I would ask is do you think besides helping people (which I think you are righteously trying to do with this post) do you think maybe this post IS your first step to try to ask for some dialogue? As you say you think this board is the best at that. Maybe we can help you. 

Besides that I want to ask does your wife know how you feel and how badly you suffer?

I find I am left with pretty much the thought I always have when I read these "Still suffering years later" posts. You are the only one who can change this. There is hope in that if you believe it can get better. The first step is always giving yourself the courage to have hope.

By the way this should be a go to post for any person coming on here thinking about having an affair.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Like others here, I wish this was mandatory reading to ANYONE who contemplated cheating on their spouse/SO.
The absolute pain and damage come through this post loud and clear (and VERY sorry for that ret). I hope that somehow, someway, your pain will lessen.

Also, have you at least burned the pea coat (in front of her)? Gotten rid of the other items she had? Why, if she was raped, would she want those?


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Retribution said:


> In short, yes it has. For the details I refer you to this.


Sorry Retribution but that to me your statement is a cop out, you set yourself up with barriers in your mind that you will never find someone to replace her and you accepted it in the same statement as truth without ever out testing that truth...you never even tried.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Retribution said:


> TDSC60 said:
> 
> 
> > I am confused.
> ...


This is what Vlad, was referring to of not being able to / or the ability to address the issues post haste.

As for those wayward's who come here, with their best desire/intention to solve or heal the infidelity they done to the betrayed , and to some of the betrayed there is not anything they could do or be.

Inner reflection in your post of trade offs to compensate what each betrayed will weigh if it could be a worthy trade off.

And instances find yourself yrs have rolled by and nothing, but nothing has relented for you the same agony persists rooted in your mind and heart.

I see why some wayward's have stayed to endure, as possible dysfunctions in the way they were raised, not to be an excuse but a method of coping. 

But also the betrayed reasons for staying as a method of coping, believing they are not worthy of the life without trauma or hurt, fear, loss and affliction.

I was enthralled with you sharing your story and reenforces my beliefs and the advice l may share with others in the future through my experiences.

Tilted


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

How did he stay in control of her after the rape to keep her coming back? Did he make threats? I’m assuming their first meeting at least was voluntary. 

Has your wife had therapy? Did she allow you to speak to the therapist? 

Frankly, I think you should insist on a poly. 
How did she explain what happened?


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## Stormguy2018 (Jul 11, 2018)

Powerful. Thanks.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

Wow, that stirred up some Sh!t for me! Raw and emotional.

Similar story here but my XWW never really put the needed effort back in our marriage. She tried to fake it but after what she put me through, I wasn’t accepting less than 100%.

Ah yes, the details. I only found enough to give me mind movies for the rest of my life, but not from her. I needed to know enough to make an informed decision and to use as a basis for whatever relationship I would have with her going forward. The result, I divorced and kicked her out after 16 years of marriage. I haven’t spoke to her in many years. 

Was it hard, was I conflicted? Hell yes, but I don’t regret my decision for one minute. I now feel a great sense of liberation although it took years to get here. I realized that if I stayed, it would be a long painful journey that would never really end, not as long as I still had a memory. She would be a constant reminder of the dark times and I could never really look at her or trust her again. Our marriage would have been like a shattered window that someone tried to glue back together. It would always have all the visible cracks. 

I chose not to live with the cracks.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

TDSC60 said:


> I am confused.
> 
> If she was abused and raped, why did she go to his place in person to say "goodbye"?


Honestly this makes me doubt the whole abuse/rape angle. I think she has the panic attacks over him out of sheer guilt. 
@Retribution, thank you for coming here and sharing this story and insight. It makes me sad that you basically stayed in this because you didnt think you could do better. This is how it reads to me, at least, others may not perceive it the same. You dont HAVE to be there, you are only as stuck as you think you are. Though I'm sure you're aware of that. I hope some day you find the strength to divorce her and find some true happiness for yourself. Your story is exactly why I advocate divorce when there is adultery. There are people that just cant get past what happened, and its ok if they cant. 

I always thought cheating was a dealbreaker for me, but years ago when I found out a boyfriend had cheated, I chose to stay with him and try to work through it. Well that didnt work, due to his refusal to let go of her. I wasted so much time with all these horrible feelings... stress, anxiety, suspicion. I guess I did this for almost a year and a half. He constantly said he was over her and not contacting her, but I just as constantly found proof he was lying. Eventually I pulled my head out of my ass and ended the madness. No one in the world is worth feeling those horrible feelings over.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Maybe she had the panic attack because he was showing up at her work early and didn’t want you seeing that they were still together?


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## Inside_Looking_Out (Apr 8, 2012)

My heart breaks for you...and for all of us that have had to go through what you have so eloquently put down in writing. Thank you for that.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Retribution said:


> I can’t see an adulterous wife, even just on TV, and not want to bash every POSOM with a dose of their own medicine (Or was that a baseball bat? Note: I’m not advocating violence, but I won’t lie about how I feel)


That you're not advocating violence isn't supposed to matter.



Retribution said:


> trying to overcome that instinct to live


That's some profound stuff right there.



Retribution said:


> Don’t do what I did and find yourself stuck.


When people say they're stuck, it's only an excuse to avoid making the hard decisions.



Retribution said:


> I haven’t given up hope on a happy life, but I think I have given up hope for a happy marriage.


I don't think I understand. You remain in the marriage, so how can you hope for a happy life if you have no hope that your marriage will ever be happy? How are they mutually exclusive? Unless, that is, you've decided to leave some time in the future and hope your life will be happy afterward. 

Thank you for sharing this. I really enjoyed your style of writing and so sorry for your painful experience. I just think it seems like you have sentenced yourself in this life and only have hope for happiness in your next life, whether that be pre or post mortality. I'm not sure when it is that you hope happiness will happen. It's the sentencing part I think you should reconsider. Stop claiming to be "stuck" and make a decision. If you decide to stay, decide you will do everything you can to be happy and make it a happy marriage.

What you're suffering is PTSD, and there are treatments for it, some of them breakthrough and effective as testimonies indicate. You have to find something that you are willing to try. I was reading a few months ago about a new one that didn't involve anything invasive. It was just some kind of exercise if I recall right. I'll try to find it again and post a link if I do.

You need to commit to something because you haven't committed to anything except not making a decision. So commit to trying to find an effective treatment for your PTSD so you can clear your head and know where you are on this decision-making totem pole that you're hanging from by a slim and damaged thread.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

There it is! One of the best reasons FOR divorce I've read in a long time!


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Okay, I found it. It was a feature on one of the news programs that I saw, so I thought it was a new kind of treatment, but apparently it isn't new. It's called *EMDR* for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing

Here are some stats:
According to the EMDR Institute, Inc., some of the studies on this type of therapy show that 84%-90% of single-trauma victims no longer have post-traumatic stress disorder after only three 90-minute sessions. Another study, funded by the HMO Kaiser Permanente, found that 100% of the single-trauma victims and 77% of multiple trauma victims no longer were diagnosed with PTSD after only six 50-minute sessions. In another study, 77% of combat veterans were free of PTSD in 12 sessions.

There are many treatments for PTSD and I know you mentioned seeing a therapist, but I don't know if doctors or therapists view the shock and enduring effects of the shock associated with infidelity as a traumatic event. And, while I can only imagine the shock and emotional distress it causes to betrayed spouses, you certainly received it and live with it as a traumatic event, one that haunts you despairingly. It's probably that way for a lot of betrayeds, so it might be a good idea for doctors and therapists to start treating it as such. But you don't have to wait for an official diagnosis when you know how difficult it continues to be for you and to the extent it continues to affect your life and pursuit of happiness. You can look into the various types of treatment and consult with your doctor or therapist about it.

Since you mentioned cutting, something that is also known is that some of the treatments for PTSD, including EMDR, have also had success in treating people with the disorders that prompt them to self injure, such as anxiety, bipolar syndrome, schizophrenia, and so on.

Please, I beg you to seek help. I understand you have been in therapy but since that hasn't helped, then it's time to look into other forms of treatment. You said you have hope for a happy life, so begin now to make that possible in your future.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

My request to be left out of any advice has clearly been ignored by some. I don’t want to be fixed right now, and yes, I recognize this is my choice. If I make pithy remarks, it’s my attempt at humor, and not a personal attack on anyone.

I originally wanted to reply to everyone personally, but that would take too much time. I’ll try to address the subjects presented in the advice I received anyways.

My period of grieving is over? I’m unique in how long I’ve been in pain? It’s my choice to be here? Gee. I never thought of any of that. In that case, problem solved. Thanks! 

Of course I’ve thought of these things! Or is anyone here so obtuse to believe that 9 years wallowing (I know! This is willingly!) in this mess doesn’t cause serious self reflection? I fully recognize that it’s my choice to be here, or leave, or whatever. I know that it’s my responsibility to fix me, and nobody else can do it for me. I know I’ve been at this for a long time. I know this because I’ve actually been at this a long time. Almost 1/4 of my life has been sitting right here, and studying, reading TAM, books, articles, whatever I can find. I’ve prayed, meditated, and searched inside and out for answers. There was the therapy and drugs. I’ve tried dreaming of what it would be like without her. I’ve tried loving and being grateful for what I still have. I’ve tried every reasonable thing my little brain could think of. The first five years of this were done almost to the exclusion of everything else. It was an obsession. It became my new hobby. A hobby I found little reward in and no enjoyment. I’m stubborn, not ignorant. I also know I’m not unique in my current state. The very fact that other “years later” posts exist tells me this. 

ADD moment: who defines how long a “reasonable grieving period” is anyways? Why do we have a need to tell others it’s time to get over it, and shut up? That’s what that means, you know? I’ve always figured after a major trauma that you have your intense grief, then after that passes you have tiny moments of grief for the rest of your life as things happen that remind you of the traumatic event. Those little moments are important. They’re important because they can disrupt what would have otherwise been a good time. It’s very much like the proverbial sh!t sandwich. Sure it’s not the sh!t sandwich you were first handed. This sandwich has everything you love to have on a sandwich...except for the sh!t sprinkles. Do you like sh!t sprinkles? I don’t. It makes that really good sandwich absolutely terrible. Those moments never truly go away, which means grieving is a constant process that can take the rest of your life. It is not a hair shirt that we put on and then become little b!tches about. 

I’m not still married only because I feel like I can’t do better. A few months ago those same neighbors who lost the child I mentioned, they divorced. They have other children, and those children are friends with my own. My kids watched as another couple split and went their separate ways. One night, during this event, my daughter caught my wife and I talking while we were both standing in the hallway. She walked over to us, grabbed our hands, put them together, and walked away. She was trying to insulate us from what her friend’s parents were doing. I know it would destroy her to see my wife and I split right now. So in addition to reasons stated above you have: for the kids, then there’s the money, divorce law in my state is notoriously brutal to men, if we split then that twat POSOM wins, pick one. Or pick all.

There was a poster I read here years ago. He said he was going to wait for his children to all reach 18, and the day after youngest’s birthday, blamo! Blindside the WW with divorce. I don’t quite recall who it was involved or I’d drop names. I remember thinking he had a decent plan. @One Eighty has a great plan too. Good way to cut ties and be ready to move on when the child rearing is done. One thing I want to make clear here is I do not advocate reconciliation. I really never have. I’ve always known deep down that an affair is the death of a happy relationship. Just because somebody chooses to stay doesn’t mean they’re magically thinking things will get better. They don’t. Even with hard work they don’t. History has a powerful effect, even after the intense emotion of trauma has faded.


My final thought here is this. I know I wrote something above that is anything but pleasant on my views of marriage and post affair life. That does not mean I don’t find happiness and value elsewhere. My overall opinion of life = good. My marriage = not good. I have a good job that challenges me. I have side hustles that are paying me money and engaging me in productive hobbies. I work out. I like to be in the mountains hiking. I love and adore my children, though my heart aches for what they’ve been through. My point in this exercise is to illustrate how destructive affairs are, not to complain about how everything sucks.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

oldtruck said:


> How abusive was this PA with the OM? Probably a lot.
> 
> Though the OM bad boy persona drew your WW in to this PA and kept her there.
> 
> ...


There were threats made on her well being. A lot of “hints” referring back to what he did to his ex, and that this would be her or worse if she didn’t “behave”.

You’re right about the whole story. I still feel like something is missing. Hence no healing.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Did you at least take out some of your anger on that peacoat?
> 
> I think you're selling yourself short on what your future could hold, but you don't seem to be asking for advice because you have decided this is the way it will be, so I just posit it as my opinion.


I wish I had. I’d have loved to have sent the ashes or rags to him with a handful of craft herpes. Instead I made her give it to him before any of the subsequent problems came to light. I mistakenly thought it would be an indicator he was gone for good.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

sokillme said:


> So the only question I would ask is do you think besides helping people (which I think you are righteously trying to do with this post) do you think maybe this post IS your first step to try to ask for some dialogue? As you say you think this board is the best at that. Maybe we can help you.
> 
> Besides that I want to ask does your wife know how you feel and how badly you suffer?


A friend suggested I journal, this was my attempt. It’s more interactive, and you guys have challenged my thinking. I really should thank you all for that, even if I asked you not to advise me. So yes, a little dialogue is expected.

My wife is keenly aware of my suffering. She usually feels when I’m upset. I grow cold and distant. It usually ends when we talk and I ask questions I’ve asked a million times before. Something is missing. I usually calm down, and then weeks or months go by, then repeat.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> How did he stay in control of her after the rape to keep her coming back? Did he make threats? I’m assuming their first meeting at least was voluntary.
> 
> Has your wife had therapy? Did she allow you to speak to the therapist?
> 
> ...


There were threats. I detailed them a little above. Her first meetings and the eventual kiss she says were voluntary. Weeks went by before the actual assault and rape happened. I used to think she was there all the time. Turns out the frequency wasn’t what I’d assumed. 

She has had therapy, and I have talked to her therapist at great length. The therapists opinion was that she was raped as well. She was treated for trauma. They did a lot of work on acting and not freezing during fearful events.

I’m unsure what you mean by, “How did she explain what happened?” She just told me. She was afraid, tearful, emotional. I suspected something odd was up anyways.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

3Xnocharm said:


> Honestly this makes me doubt the whole abuse/rape angle. I think she has the panic attacks over him out of sheer guilt.
> 
> @Retribution, thank you for coming here and sharing this story and insight. It makes me sad that you basically stayed in this because you didnt think you could do better. This is how it reads to me, at least, others may not perceive it the same. You dont HAVE to be there, you are only as stuck as you think you are. Though I'm sure you're aware of that. I hope some day you find the strength to divorce her and find some true happiness for yourself. Your story is exactly why I advocate divorce when there is adultery. There are people that just cant get past what happened, and its ok if they cant.
> 
> I always thought cheating was a dealbreaker for me, but years ago when I found out a boyfriend had cheated, I chose to stay with him and try to work through it. Well that didnt work, due to his refusal to let go of her. I wasted so much time with all these horrible feelings... stress, anxiety, suspicion. I guess I did this for almost a year and a half. He constantly said he was over her and not contacting her, but I just as constantly found proof he was lying. Eventually I pulled my head out of my ass and ended the madness. No one in the world is worth feeling those horrible feelings over.


Why do the two have to be exclusive, rape and affair? Can’t it be both? Because somebody chose to make one bad decision doesn’t logically conclude that they would then make all bad decisions.

Your story is clearly familiar, and you’re right. “No one in the world is worth feeling those horrible feelings over.”


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

CraigBesuden said:


> Maybe she had the panic attack because he was showing up at her work early and didn’t want you seeing that they were still together?


Not likely for two reasons. 1. We were together that whole day. She wouldn’t be expecting anyone. She was going to be alone in her office, and didn’t want to be, so I spent the day with her. We were also returning from lunch. There was nothing early about it. 2. I was such a hawk at this point that I don’t believe she was hiding anything. I had passwords and access to everything. Sure, she could have made secret accounts of anything, but I find this highly unlikely. She wasn’t one to know you could delete a browser history let alone just closing apps on her phone or making secret accounts.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Retribution said:


> Not likely for two reasons. 1. We were together that whole day. She wouldn’t be expecting anyone. She was going to be alone in her office, and didn’t want to be, so I spent the day with her. We were also returning from lunch. There was nothing early about it. 2. I was such a hawk at this point that I don’t believe she was hiding anything. I had passwords and access to everything. Sure, she could have made secret accounts of anything, but I find this highly unlikely. She wasn’t one to know you could delete a browser history let alone just closing apps on her phone or making secret accounts.



Has she sought a restraining order or P.O. against him? If he raped her she definitely should. That bit about her being at the office alone and his "drive-by" sounds a little stalkerish at best and criminal at worst.

Did she ever give you a reasonable excuse of why she went in person (and didn't tell you) to say goodbye if he had raped her? Why say Bye at all especially in person. That doesn't pass the smell test IMHO.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Has she sought a restraining order or P.O. against him? If he raped her she definitely should. That bit about her being at the office alone and his "drive-by" sounds a little stalkerish at best and criminal at worst.
> 
> Did she ever give you a reasonable excuse of why she went in person (and didn't tell you) to say goodbye if he had raped her? Why say Bye at all especially in person. That doesn't pass the smell test IMHO.


She filled out the papers years ago. I was about to take them to the court house, and she asked me not to. She was afraid of his retaliation. Also why she never reported a crime. Also why she didn’t even have him ticketed for electronic harassment on advisement from a police officer. 

Why go to say, “Bye”? Let’s see. She wasn’t mentally well, and wouldn’t behave in a way others see logically. Her therapist had an idea that when we become over stressed we revert to early coping mechanisms that got us through events as children. This is especially true of traumas. It was suggested that she became pliable to suggestion in order to preserve herself. This would create a directive to keep the peace at all costs. Hence the thought, “ I’d better tell him goodbye or pay the consequences.”

I have a hard time with this though. I don’t understand those who give in to pressure like that. When I feel like I’m being manipulated or controlled I usually lash out. It’s hard for me to understand why a married woman would not at least reach out for help from her very willing to do harm to rapists husband. This guy had her convinced I was going to go ape sh!t on her though. I can kind of get it, but it all seems too convenient, especially when I’m pissed about anything else. Those are my most skeptical moments.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Retribution said:


> She filled out the papers years ago. I was about to take them to the court house, and she asked me not to. She was afraid of his retaliation. Also why she never reported a crime. Also why she didn’t even have him ticketed for electronic harassment on advisement from a police officer.
> 
> Why go to say, “Bye”? Let’s see. She wasn’t mentally well, and wouldn’t behave in a way others see logically. Her therapist had an idea that when we become over stressed we revert to early coping mechanisms that got us through events as children. This is especially true of traumas. It was suggested that she became pliable to suggestion in order to preserve herself. This would create a directive to keep the peace at all costs. Hence the thought, “ I’d better tell him goodbye or pay the consequences.”
> 
> I have a hard time with this though. I don’t understand those who give in to pressure like that. When I feel like I’m being manipulated or controlled I usually lash out. It’s hard for me to understand why a married woman would not at least reach out for help from her very willing to do harm to rapists husband. This guy had her convinced I was going to go ape sh!t on her though. I can kind of get it, but it all seems too convenient, especially when I’m pissed about anything else. Those are my most skeptical moments.


 Between the two of those, it seems like a convenient re-write. I think you should press the issue on the R.O. for her safety. Her not wanting to Wreaks of protecting the other man. I really hope she can get the help she needs if that is the case, and I hope her therapist isn't a kook.
I agree with you that is seems strange she wouldn't seek help from her husband and take his well being into consideration. If you get the chance read @bobert 's thread . It's a long one, actually 2 I think, but revolves around mental illness and affair/rape.


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## Retribution (Apr 30, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Between the two of those, it seems like a convenient re-write. I think you should press the issue on the R.O. for her safety. Her not wanting to Wreaks of protecting the other man. I really hope she can get the help she needs if that is the case, and I hope her therapist isn't a kook.
> I agree with you that is seems strange she wouldn't seek help from her husband and take his well being into consideration. If you get the chance read @bobert 's thread . It's a long one, actually 2 I think, but revolves around mental illness and affair/rape.


Thanks. I’ll check it out for sure.

As for the *********, he’s long gone. Fled the state. He’s a wanted man here currently, so I don’t think he’ll be back anytime soon. There’s nobody to serve R.O. papers to.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

She had romanticized him for years. You never had her whole heart. She wasn't "over him".

She inched closer to her affair with him in small steps. It's easier to rationalize it away that way.

Typically the steps resemble this. 
Then they say, "it just happened ", lol.

1. I'm just curious how he is doing.
2. We are just friends, I still care for him.
3. These are just old feelings resurfacing, they will die down.
4. He crossed a line a little, he is just hurt and lonely from his divorce. I need to be there for him as a friend.
5. We got a little carried away, maybe the drinks were a bad idea.
6. Sex
7. I need him in my life, but I will never leave my husband.
8. You (affair partner) are my true soul mate, I want to spend the rest of my life with you. I want to be with you.
9. She is his girl now.

At some point the affair is discovered. Often once an affair is outed, the cheater lies to themself, and their partner with the ferocity of a cornered animal.

They balance guilt with blame, and become unrecognizable. 

Sometimes this process is interrupted by the affair partner throwing your partner under the bus to save their own marriage, or by the discovery that he was cheating with multiple partners, and she realizes she was duped. 

In your case it sounds like her eyes were opened when, "something scary happened".

Perhaps as you read she tried to get out of his bed one day at some point, and he forced himself on her.

But she "never" wanted it?

Unlikely, she was well down the list of rationalizations by that time, and was most likely physical cheating already.

But here you are, the damage is done. This is your future, and you are making the best of it. What esle can you do under the circumstances?


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Retribution said:


> She filled out the papers years ago. I was about to take them to the court house, and she asked me not to. She was afraid of his retaliation. Also why she never reported a crime. Also why she didn’t even have him ticketed for electronic harassment on advisement from a police officer.
> 
> Why go to say, “Bye”? Let’s see. She wasn’t mentally well, and wouldn’t behave in a way others see logically. Her therapist had an idea that when we become over stressed we revert to early coping mechanisms that got us through events as children. This is especially true of traumas. It was suggested that she became pliable to suggestion in order to preserve herself. This would create a directive to keep the peace at all costs. Hence the thought, “ I’d better tell him goodbye or pay the consequences.”
> 
> I have a hard time with this though. I don’t understand those who give in to pressure like that. When I feel like I’m being manipulated or controlled I usually lash out. It’s hard for me to understand why a married woman would not at least reach out for help from her very willing to do harm to rapists husband. This guy had her convinced I was going to go ape sh!t on her though. I can kind of get it, but it all seems too convenient, especially when I’m pissed about anything else. Those are my most skeptical moments.


Interesting. Did they ever meet up at her office?

As far as rape is concerned.
Sometimes you see a woman who decides she needs "closure", meaning she will go have sex with him one more time to see if she still feels the same about him.

Perhaps it was at this time that she got out of his bed, and he knowing she was going to end it, took to forcing himself upon her. She could at this point say she had chosen you, and never wanted it.

I am having trouble following the whole timeline though.

This all seems so traumatic that short of swinging your katana, untying the Gordian knot is unkikely.

Speculation will never satisfy, so your current uncertainty seems like the only clarity you will ever have, you seem to be dealing with it, and have made a life with her.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

One excuse is as good as another. I'd recommend D but this guy has a tin ear.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." ....Romans 12:19 ....(and THRD's birthdate)


One more sin would I commit as I violated this admonition.
The wrath of God would come via my hands.



[:frown2:]


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

OK @Retribution so you gave me the go ahead so here goes. 

So let me ask you some questions.

What was the real reason for this post? You say you come here "hoping to find answers, only to be rewarded with more frustration." Let's break this down? I think what you really mean is you come here looking for someone to say something on here that is going to make your choice acceptable to you. Am I correct?

Or is it to find something that will make the pain go away?

Sounds like you are very unhappy but you are stuck. I wonder if you are not unhappy because you feel stuck, and basically powerless. But maybe you are not as powerless as you think. 

First of all you have agency in your life, every day you stay with you wife is a choice. Whether you know it or not your wife will survive if you don't. I think one thing BS's do is they tend to think that their WS operate like they do. It's just not true, most WS just don't have the same kind of profound bond that the BS has. If anything she will recover much quicker then you do. 

But it's pretty clear right now you intend to stay, so how about you answering some questions. 


Humor me here -


Truly why are you married? Answer that question.

What did you love about your marriage before this happened?

What did you love about your wife before?

What do you love about your wife now if anything?

What do you love about your marriage now if anything?

What do you think it means to love someone, describe that?

What do you think it means to be a husband, describe that?

If you could have everything fixed and you be happy again what would that look like?

What if the answer you wrote to the last question is not possible?

Describe what being a man is and what is important to you as a man, husband and father?

Do you think you are those things?

Why or why not?

Do you think there is any hope? Why or why not?

Define yourself who you think you are?


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

I will add to your post OP: 

The quality of your perceived connection to you spouse typically determines you level of betrayal.

But that isn't the worse of it it is when....

Denial of infidelity to both betrayed and betrayer explodes on the day of revelation of the affair because both have lost their idols.

I would say these sheds light on infidelity


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

What is this? It plays like a Bergman movie!


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## ljigair (Jan 30, 2016)

This post sounds so familiar I could have written it myself. This December will be 9 years. This summer for some reason has been the worst in a long time, no idea why. To the point that I wonder if it's all worth it. I have finally, just, come to the realization I will never be the same as I was before d-day. I think I might be more depressed this summer than I was 9 years ago.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

oldtruck said:


> How abusive was this PA with the OM? Probably a lot.
> 
> Though the OM bad boy persona drew your WW in to this PA and kept her there.
> 
> ...


If he was capable of putting a loaded gun in his former wife's mouth, I would think he would be capable of any crime including rape.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

My own personality type has meant that I would rather be alone than living in betrayal. I have faced the pain of a cheating partner a few times in my life and have always just decided that the pain was not worth having that person stay. Without exception, I lost respect and then love for the cheater.

So, my observation re this thread is to note that you have always had free will. From what you write, your marriage has become a prison sentence to you. The alternative, you say, is unknown - you don't think you can guarantee a better partner. That's true, of course, but you could also choose to be single.

I realize that my way of thinking might not resonate with you. Different personality type, philosophy of life, etc. I am one of the readers here who doesn't believe that divorce is worse for the children than the environment of unhappiness and pain that can attend infidelity.

You say you don't want advice and I'm honoring that and not offering any. I am just making an observation based on my own mindset, which is that you could always have made the choice to find (or try to find) relief by leaving.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

TDSC60 said:


> I am confused.
> 
> If she was abused and raped, why did she go to his place in person to say "goodbye"?
> 
> Did you go inside to confront them together at that point? Or did you just drive away.


Check my history. I know way too much about sexual assaults. It is extremely possible for this to be rape and to have her return.

However, in this case, I personally find this unlikely. She has a history of projection and rationalization, and I would say that it's more likely that she now views the affair as "something he did to her" instead of something she welcomed.

However, as I said, it could have been rape, but she could "want to fix him" or something, and she could return. People stay in relationships all the time even after their spouse has raped them.

What I would do is insist on her pressing charges if it were truly rape. Because if it wasn't, it's just even more of a mind **** manipulation tactic.


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