# Thank YOU, TAMers!



## WildMustang

Hello to all you awesome TAMers! Been reading this forum for years, several years before my divorce, and you all have been so much help to me! Your wisdom and insight has been a huge blessing!

Tempted to recognize individual poster names and give a big shout out to you, but afraid I will unintentionally leave someone out and I do not want to do that. Besides, not sure if it is against rules. So let me just say YOU are ALL awesome and I appreciate you all sharing your wisdom and knowledge so freely on this forum! Of course, some opinions I do not agree with, but nonetheless, the posts help me see things from many different perspectives and that increases my understanding.

I was married for 28 years and have been divorced for 2.5 years. Not dating yet, but close to being ready. Most days I think I am ready to date again, but some days I question it. LOL I just think I am a bit rusty and a little afraid. Dating has changed so much in the last 30 years, which is the last time I was in the dating market. 

Any dating advice from the GURUS on TAM?

You ALL are AWESOME! Thank you for ALL you do!


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## EleGirl

Hi! I'm glad you found help here. Maybe now you would reach out and help others. What do you think about that?


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## WildMustang

I am happy and excited and humbled to be of help to any and all! I am in a really good place in my life now and I would love to give back to this wonderful community! I look forward to contributing to this great forum! Thank you for the invite!


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## TBT

Hey @WildMustang and welcome! So 30 years ago when you dated,what were the norms in terms of how a date might come about? Through friends,general socializing,shared interests or even just happenstance?


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## MrsHolland

Great post, I wish you well for the future.

From an outsiders POV the best thing you did was seeking counselling before heading back out into the world. Life with a spouse with mental health issues can really damage a person and future relationships, you being whole before getting back out into the dating world is so positive.

My husbands ex has severe MH issues and the fall out has impacted our relationship, he only recently sought proper professional help which is way too late IMHO. The impact his past has on our current marriage is very difficult at times. I so wish he was whole before Imet him but this is what we have to deal with and I have to work very hard at not letting resentment creep in.

Here is to an amazing life for you


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## WildMustang

Mrs. Holland,

Thank you for your kind words and well wishes!


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## WildMustang

TBT- Hey YOU! Thanks for the warm welcome! So, 30 years ago, dates came about through mutual friends, or at various functions, say, meeting someone at a party or casually being introduced at a football game or while at a tailgate party before a game or while riding my bike in the park and meeting someone who also frequented the park on his bike.

There was no such thing as online dating when I was dating. I married at 21 in 1987.

I don't want to do the online dating thing (does anyone really?). I prefer to date people I see and meet organically. It just seems like with online dating there is a pressure to like each other or to be attracted to each other or to want a relationship with each other. I don't want to date under that pressure.

Like most people, I know fairly quickly if I am attracted to someone and if he is attracted to me, whether we like each other and have enough in common to want to date.

Online dating seems to jump the gun and assume all these things are true before you know and that sets up feelings to be hurt when it turns out these things are not true for him or me.

I also have a problem with the whole swipe left or swipe right, yay or nay, shopping like function of online dating. These are PEOPLE for goodness sakes. Online dating seems to be dehumanizing to me.

I prefer to interact with people in person, talk to them, observe their comfort level with eye contact, notice their body language, watch how they interact with others, listen to them, see if we have anything in common, notice if there is obvious sexual chemistry, get a feel for them (ha ha no pun intended!), that type thing.

I am so much more comfortable doing that than giving people access to my life that I might not give if I spoke to them in person before going on a date with them.


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## SunCMars

Hey! Quit giving away the Martian's secrets.:surprise::surprise:


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## WildMustang

TBT- I would also be open to going on a date with someone I met organically, say, at the grocery store, if he approached me, we talked for a few minutes, I felt comfortable with him, he seemed nice, there was mutual attraction, etc. I would be open to going to get coffee or go somewhere public to talk more, say to lunch or to grab an ice cream or go for a walk in the park. I would insist on driving myself, but that is something I can see myself easily doing. 

Of course, if my alarm bells are going off because he seems shifty or won't look me in the eye or if there is no attraction or if I don't think I would like him for whatever reason, I would politely decline and thank him for the offer.


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## WildMustang

SUNCMARS!!!! OMG!!!! I love you, Man!!!! YOU are the BOMB!!!

I LOVE LOVE LOVE reading your posts!!!

You are such a creative person! 

Your posts always make me laugh out loud! And they bring a smile to my face that lingers for hours!

Sorry if I gave away the secrets.


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## MrsHolland

.


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## Adelais

@WildMustang, I love your name, and your attitude! You sound like you have identified and dealt with your issues head on!

I've not heard of a Covert Narcissist, but what you described sounds scary...like a CN is an expert gaslighter. Can you tell us how you figured out he was a CN? What was he doing to you? What did your marriage look like? What is the difference between an insecure person/liar/manipulator/gaslighter and a CN?


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## WildMustang

I have to own the fact that I have had resentment towards him due to feeling like he has at times put his ex wife before me. I did not and still don't fully understand how his past has impacted him and am sorry to say I got to a point where I was fed up with being second place to his ex. I have since learnt that he had to walk on eggshells for so long and was under the constant threat of her alienating the kids against him that it was easier to succumb to her manipulation than to see what the impact of that was doing to us. 

It was/is clear to me how she manipulated him and TBH I saw it as weak that he allowed it to happen. It all sounds very judgemental on my part but in my defense at one point I felt pushed into a corner and instead of understanding his side, I had to protect myself by disengaging and/or getting angry. Consequently he and I argued too much and booked counselling. Within 2 sessions the counsellor suggested he seek IC as it was clear that our problems stemmed from his unresolved issues with the ex.

That is why I applaud you for seeking wholeness and understanding before venturing out again. I love MrH and have stood by him through times where I wanted to pull my hair out, he is such a good man but neither of us understood the impact his past had/still has on him. That is why I wish he had of been whole before we met, then again this is a journey we can share. We are a great match in so many ways and extremely compatible, the challenges we bring to each others lives are there for a reason that is why I try so hard to not let resentment creep in and destroy what is such a wonderful relationship.

.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

I have not yet figured out how to quote passages using the quote button so I am just using copy and paste to quote your text.

Again, thank you for such kind words and for all the encouragement. It is noticed and appreciated.

It is introspective and self aware of you to notice your resentment creeping in and nipping it in the bud with counseling before it festered and infected your entire relationship.

I think in most dysfunctional relationships, it is the stronger person, the healthier person, who has to give in the most or compromise the most, to have any degree of functioning, simply because the weaker person, the less healthy person, cannot give or compromise. They don't have it in them. They cannot give something they don't have to give. 

So, respectfully, I don't see your husband as being weak for giving in to her manipulation tactics. If anything, I see it as him being the stronger person, the one able to be flexible to have some form of functioning, to keep the kids from being alienated from him. Ideally, sure, it'd be better if she were healthy and he didn't have to do all the giving and compromising, but that is not who he had to deal with. He had to deal with who he had to deal with and he had to do it on her terms.

Not making excuses for the XW or your husband either. I am just observing that it seems logical, from my experience in dealing with dysfunction, that since your husband and you are probably stronger and more mentally and emotionally stable than she is, you are the ones who have to compromise and give more to have any type of functioning. Unfortunately, that is the nature of the beast in dealing within dysfunctional relationships or with people who have mental health issues.

Please know I am not discounting or minimizing your pain and the chaos she creates. I get it.

Having said that, I also believe it is perfectly normal to feel resentment creeping in over your husband putting his XW before you. That is just one of those things our "ego" does to protect us, which is neither good nor bad. It just is. Good to know you recognize resentment for the poison it is.

Your being patient and understanding that him giving in to her is to keep the kids from being alienated from him, is a HUGE gift to him. Both your husband and you know where his loyalty lies-with you, of course, otherwise, he'd be with her and not you. Perhaps he is also giving in to her out of years of habit/conditioning to keep the peace. Those habits and that conditioning is hard to break.

Denial is such a strange and also a glorious thing. It is there in our brains as a defense mechanism to protect us from things we cannot handle knowing, until we can handle knowing it. I wonder if your husband was in denial about his XW, the extent of her mental health issues, and how her tactics affected him.

Or perhaps he was not in denial but was simply afraid you would not pursue a relationship with him if he told you early on the extent of her mental illness and how that affected him. Perhaps he was afraid you would judge him harshly as not worthy of his love for you, as "broken" or not "whole", or too big of a "risk".

Of course, I am not saying that is the case as I have no way of knowing. Just thinking out loud.

Your husband is blessed to have you by his side taking this journey toward "wholeness" with him. You two sound very well matched in so many ways. That is such a hard thing to find. It is refreshing to hear you two do not take it for granted and cherish it for the rare gift it is.

I believe marriage grows people- it makes people grow in ways that are not possible if single. And it seems like the universe gives us people in our lives and life partners that help us grow where we need it most. Just an observation I have made about married couples in particular. 

I wish MrHolland you well, MrsHolland. It is obvious you love and adore him! You've got this!


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## Emerging Buddhist

What is it with the "28" thing???


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## WildMustang

Araucaria- Thank you for your kind words and encouragement.


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## WildMustang

Emerging Buddhist- what is with the 28 thing? 

What do you mean?


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## MrsHolland

WildMustang said:


> I have to own the fact that I have had resentment towards him due to feeling like he has at times put his ex wife before me. I did not and still don't fully understand how his past has impacted him and am sorry to say I got to a point where I was fed up with being second place to his ex. I have since learnt that he had to walk on eggshells for so long and was under the constant threat of her alienating the kids against him that it was easier to succumb to her manipulation than to see what the impact of that was doing to us.
> 
> It was/is clear to me how she manipulated him and TBH I saw it as weak that he allowed it to happen. It all sounds very judgemental on my part but in my defense at one point I felt pushed into a corner and instead of understanding his side, I had to protect myself by disengaging and/or getting angry. Consequently he and I argued too much and booked counselling. Within 2 sessions the counsellor suggested he seek IC as it was clear that our problems stemmed from his unresolved issues with the ex.
> 
> That is why I applaud you for seeking wholeness and understanding before venturing out again. I love MrH and have stood by him through times where I wanted to pull my hair out, he is such a good man but neither of us understood the impact his past had/still has on him. That is why I wish he had of been whole before we met, then again this is a journey we can share. We are a great match in so many ways and extremely compatible, the challenges we bring to each others lives are there for a reason that is why I try so hard to not let resentment creep in and destroy what is such a wonderful relationship.
> 
> .........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
> 
> I have not yet figured out how to quote passages using the quote button so I am just using copy and paste to quote your text.
> 
> Again, thank you for such kind words and for all the encouragement. It is noticed and appreciated.
> 
> It is introspective and self aware of you to notice your resentment creeping in and nipping it in the bud with counseling before it festered and infected your entire relationship.
> 
> I think in most dysfunctional relationships, it is the stronger person, the healthier person, who has to give in the most or compromise the most, to have any degree of functioning, simply because the weaker person, the less healthy person, cannot give or compromise. They don't have it in them. They cannot give something they don't have to give.
> 
> So, respectfully, I don't see your husband as being weak for giving in to her manipulation tactics. If anything, I see it as him being the stronger person, the one able to be flexible to have some form of functioning, to keep the kids from being alienated from him. Ideally, sure, it'd be better if she were healthy and he didn't have to do all the giving and compromising, but that is not who he had to deal with. He had to deal with who he had to deal with and he had to do it on her terms.
> 
> Not making excuses for the XW or your husband either. I am just observing that it seems logical, from my experience in dealing with dysfunction, that since your husband and you are probably stronger and more mentally and emotionally stable than she is, you are the ones who have to compromise and give more to have any type of functioning. Unfortunately, that is the nature of the beast in dealing within dysfunctional relationships or with people who have mental health issues.
> 
> Please know I am not discounting or minimizing your pain and the chaos she creates. I get it.
> 
> Having said that, I also believe it is perfectly normal to feel resentment creeping in over your husband putting his XW before you. That is just one of those things our "ego" does to protect us, which is neither good nor bad. It just is. Good to know you recognize resentment for the poison it is.
> 
> Your being patient and understanding that him giving in to her is to keep the kids from being alienated from him, is a HUGE gift to him. Both your husband and you know where his loyalty lies-with you, of course, otherwise, he'd be with her and not you. Perhaps he is also giving in to her out of years of habit/conditioning to keep the peace. Those habits and that conditioning is hard to break.
> 
> Denial is such a strange and also a glorious thing. It is there in our brains as a defense mechanism to protect us from things we cannot handle knowing, until we can handle knowing it. I wonder if your husband was in denial about his XW, the extent of her mental health issues, and how her tactics affected him.
> 
> Or perhaps he was not in denial but was simply afraid you would not pursue a relationship with him if he told you early on the extent of her mental illness and how that affected him. Perhaps he was afraid you would judge him harshly as not worthy of his love for you, as "broken" or not "whole", or too big of a "risk".
> 
> Of course, I am not saying that is the case as I have no way of knowing. Just thinking out loud.
> 
> Your husband is blessed to have you by his side taking this journey toward "wholeness" with him. You two sound very well matched in so many ways. That is such a hard thing to find. It is refreshing to hear you two do not take it for granted and cherish it for the rare gift it is.
> 
> I believe marriage grows people- it makes people grow in ways that are not possible if single. And it seems like the universe gives us people in our lives and life partners that help us grow where we need it most. Just an observation I have made about married couples in particular.
> 
> I wish MrHolland you well, MrsHolland. It is obvious you love and adore him! You've got this!


You have nailed it, your understanding and perception is spot on. I agree it is not weakness that causes someone to stay with a mentally ill partner, I did think that but my understanding has grown in the last few years. The counsellor has shown him that his ex is extremely manipulative both consciously and subconsciously, it has been helpful to have a third party help me understand this too.

Prior to this I had no real contact with people with severe MH issues (this is not a judgement, simply the way it is) and it has been eye opening and very challenging. This is why I think you have done such a great thing by seeking help and healing. Firstly for yourself but it will also pay off when you do meet a new man, there is enough baggage from divorce but this particular issue is very heavy to carry.


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## WildMustang

It really is our subconscious mind that drives the bus, not our conscious mind, as we are prone to think and believe. So much happens in our subconscious minds that influences our thoughts, feelings and behaviors that we are not even aware of. 

I find it incredibly fascinating how our subconscious minds affect our thoughts, our feelings, our behaviors.

Yes, it is a heavy load to carry, but it gets exponentially lighter every day. 

Every day I wake up with breath in my lungs is a day I get to choose to make it lighter. And it is a choice. One I gladly make.

I see the things I have experienced as a HUGE asset to me. It has made me more self aware, more compassionate, more forgiving, more loving, more determined, more accepting, more curious, more ambitious, more respectful, more alert, more courageous, more focused, more creative, more tenacious, more intuitive, more sagacious, more vivacious, more disciplined, more discerning, more strong, more resilient, more appreciative, just to name a few things off the top of my head. Oh and also more muscular! Haha! Seriously...I have spent so much time in the gym over the last 3 decades with more angst to work out than a teen going through puberty! 

Thank you so much for your gracious words of support! Blessings to you and yours!


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## Not

deleted


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## WildMustang

I hope I was able to help you in some way!

I wish you well and many blessings!


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## samyeagar

MrsHolland said:


> Fantastic, you really sound strong and ready to meet the world head on.
> 
> I have to own the fact that I have had resentment towards him due to feeling like he has at times put his ex wife before me. I did not and still don't fully understand how his past has impacted him and am sorry to say I got to a point where I was fed up with being second place to his ex. I have since learnt that he had to walk on eggshells for so long and was under the constant threat of her alienating the kids against him that it was easier to succumb to her manipulation than to see what the impact of that was doing to us.
> 
> It was/is clear to me how she manipulated him and TBH I saw it as weak that he allowed it to happen. It all sounds very judgemental on my part but in my defense at one point I felt pushed into a corner and instead of understanding his side, I had to protect myself by disengaging and/or getting angry. Consequently he and I argued too much and booked counselling. Within 2 sessions the counsellor suggested he seek IC as it was clear that our problems stemmed from his unresolved issues with the ex.
> 
> That is why I applaud you for seeking wholeness and understanding before venturing out again. I love MrH and have stood by him through times where I wanted to pull my hair out, he is such a good man but neither of us understood the impact his past had/still has on him. That is why I wish he had of been whole before we met, then again this is a journey we can share. We are a great match in so many ways and extremely compatible, the challenges we bring to each others lives are there for a reason that is why I try so hard to not let resentment creep in and destroy what is such a wonderful relationship.


You know all this already @MrsHolland as we have talked about it before, but yep. Sounds very familiar. My ex is diagnosed NPD, and my wife has had many of the same difficulties in dealing with it. The modus operandi of a female Narcissist is very different that a male Narc.

Things have gotten much better all around, but the first few years of our relationship had some bumpy parts to say the least. I think I was much further down the road to recovery than your husband, but my wife had many of the same feelings and frustrations as you have. My wife has a naturally defensive personality, and has an innate need to defend herself against any slight, real or perceived.

I am very skilled at ignoring virtually everything as it relates to my ex-wife words and actions, and remaining no contact regardless of what she threw out there, and only addressing things as they related to the kids. My wife would get very upset and angry, mostly out of frustration because she saw it as me being weak for not engaging, not fighting back.

What made things even worse was that at the same time I would not engage my ex, my wife and I would get into some heated arguments about things my ex had said and done, and it made my wife feel as if I would fight back against her, while giving my ex a free pass. It has taken my wife a long time to accept that we have no control over what my ex says and does, only over ourselves, and that there is no negotiating with my ex, there are no rational agreements, no compromises. Those things are functionally impossible with someone like her because she is simply not capable. That the only reason to engage with ex is simply for the purpose of engaging, and that nothing productive can actually come from it. That once the dust settles from it, we are all still right where we were. 

It has taken my wife a long time to learn that while my ex can run her mouth, say a lot of crap, make lots of threats, that none of that has any real world impact, and that in all the ways that actually matter with the finances, with the courts, with the kids, all the battles that I had chosen to fight, I won them all, and that all my ex was ever left with was the hot air spewing from her mouth.

Many times it felt as if my wife was unsupportive of me, did not trust in my ability to handle the situation, and I was being attacked from every angle. I truly do understand how things appeared from her point of view, but at the same time, I had 20 years dealing with my ex, and know from experience that she could not be dealt with or interacted with as one does a normal person. Things that work with someone normal tend to have disastrous results when tried with a Narc. In short, my wife didn't know what the hell she was dealing with.


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## WildMustang

Samyeager, I am so glad to hear you understand/understood where your wife was/is coming from and that she finally gets it and trusts that you know what you are talking about and how best to deal with her. Sounds like you guys are doing GREAT and have a solid handle on things. Congrats to you and yours!


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## samyeagar

...


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## WildMustang

samyeagar said:


> I am a lot more fortunate than others in that I fully recognized what was going on by year 7, and never really was affected by the gaslighting and crazymaking. Oh, she tried her best, but I guess I not terribly susceptible to that kind of manipulation. I also had the better part of a decade to emotionally detach, and hone my skills in dealing with her. I stayed as long as I did primarily to act as a buffer for the children, though in retrospect, I am not sure how effective it really was as my oldest two have been successfully alienated. Getting the courts around here to recognize NPD as a danger to the children is a non starter, so she got physical custody. My youngest who is 15 sees her for exactly what she is, and we are very close.
> 
> I think the worst times dealing with my ex, that caused the biggest amount of friction between my wife and I was when my ex figured out that she could sow the most discord by attacking my current wife. Talk about the proverbial rock and a hard place. I ignore the ex, and my wife sees me as someone who won't stand up for her, and my silence feeding the impression of taking my ex's side over my wifes. Engage my ex to defend my wife, and there opens the door and give my ex her supply. No outcome possible that is even moderately not terrible.


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## samyeagar

...


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## TBT

@WildMustang Thanks for the replies to my question. I posted the question with regards to your asking dating advice from the TAM gurus. I'm of a generation prior to yours by the way,and I agree with all you wrote. My point of view is that you don't need advice at all... guru.


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## WildMustang

TBT said:


> @WildMustang Thanks for the replies to my question. I posted the question with regards to your asking dating advice from the TAM gurus. I'm of a generation prior to yours by the way,and I agree with all you wrote. My point of view is that you don't need advice at all... guru.


Oh my goodness, I take that as a HUGE compliment! Especially as a person who hasn't been on a date in over 3 decades. Hahaha. How could I possibly be a guru??? Thank you for your vote of confidence in me and in my dating abilities! We shall soon see how that goes.

A few of the men who have asked me out over the last few years, when I tell them I am not in the dating market yet and not quite ready, they have asked me to put them on the list for when I get ready.
Isn't that NUTS?? So I guess you could say, I have a list. Hahaha That just seems so bizarre to me.

On another note, concerning your being from a prior generation, I enjoy talking to and I listen carefully to folks from prior generations as I find more often than not, they have so much life wisdom under their belts and have learned so much about life and people. They have a depth about them that seems to be missing from people in my generation and I am afraid soon to be completely extinct from people in my generation and younger.

They have so many life lessons that were hard won and hard learned and I find people from prior generations to be very generous in sharing their secrets to living life well. 

We are all this journey called life and at some point or other, we may need help or we may be able to offer help (advice). 

It is such a pleasure to converse with you. Thank you! Thank you for taking time to respond to my posts! Many blessings to you and yours!


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## MrsHolland

Sam the thing that I have always struggled with is that when MrH and I met I was free as a bird and was adamant that for a man to be considered LTR material he had to add value to my life, I was already happy and do not need a man to fill any void. What I got was deep love with some massive baggage. I'm just venting here bc it seems like a safe place to do so, you guys understand. I feel for you and WM and everyone that has had their lives hacked at by partners with MH problems. 

MrH's ex is bipolar and has anxiety disorder. Has not worked for 20 plus years and has a family history with MH issues. The stats say that his children have a much higher than average chance of developing MH problems and this is why he has done all he could to protect them till they could start to stand on their own two feet. One of his kids is in therapy but seems to be doing really well, he has moved out from his mums place completely. The other was not impacted as much.

The **** is about to hit the fan here (have PMed you WM) and even though I am a strong person this MH stuff scares me. The first MrsH is so manipulative it is terrifying to me, I can't even manipulate my kids to clean their rooms lol

Stay strong people, I applaud you and wish only good for you.

eta Sammy I have noticed of late you have made some comments on threads that indicate a lack of connection with Mrs Sammy so will pry.... have the two of you sought counselling for the difficulties that an ex with MH brings to a new relationship? MrH was honestly really surprised at the problems this brings to our relationship and it has been good for him to have a 3rd party work though some of these issues.

If this is all too much of a threadjack WM please say so.


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## samyeagar

MrsHolland said:


> Sam the thing that I have always struggled with is that when MrH and I met I was free as a bird and was adamant that for a man to be considered LTR material he had to add value to my life, I was already happy and do not need a man to fill any void. What I got was deep love with some massive baggage. I'm just venting here bc it seems like a safe place to do so, you guys understand. I feel for you and WM and everyone that has had their lives hacked at by partners with MH problems.
> 
> MrH's ex is bipolar and has anxiety disorder. Has not worked for 20 plus years and has a family history with MH issues. The stats say that his children have a much higher than average chance of developing MH problems and this is why he has done all he could to protect them till they could start to stand on their own two feet. One of his kids is in therapy but seems to be doing really well, he has moved out from his mums place completely. The other was not impacted as much.
> 
> The **** is about to hit the fan here (have PMed you WM) and even though I am a strong person this MH stuff scares me. The first MrsH is so manipulative it is terrifying to me, I can't even manipulate my kids to clean their rooms lol
> 
> Stay strong people, I applaud you and wish only good for you.
> 
> eta Sammy I have noticed of late you have made some comments on threads that indicate a lack of connection with Mrs Sammy so will pry.... have the two of you sought counselling for the difficulties that an ex with MH brings to a new relationship? MrH was honestly really surprised at the problems this brings to our relationship and it has been good for him to have a 3rd party work though some of these issues.
> 
> If this is all too much of a threadjack WM please say so.


I imagine dealing with all of this is difficult for you in particular Holland, as a woman who usually has control of herself and her surroundings. I don't mean that in a disparaging way, just as someone who has focus, knows all the pieces and how they move, that sort of way The situation with MrH's ex is something that is not only beyond your control, but something completely alien to you. Your entire set of life skills are largely ineffective, and you feel completely out of your element? Something like that?

Yeah, you've always been pretty perceptive. We have been a bit disconnected here lately. It's mainly due to life happening. Wife was in a minor car accident that was really expensive to fix, so money has been pretty tight, and then it's been round after round of sickness passed between each other, so not feeling well, so feeling blah, a whole lot less sex, and so on and so forth. We'll be alright though. Just in one of the slow parts right now.


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## WildMustang

Glad to hear your wife has a support group on Facebook.


Concerning your daughter, that is hard...I am so sorry...

Also, that anger coming from your daughter is most likely repressed pain. Anger is usually repressed pain, because it is much easier to deal with anger than it is to deal with pain.

People can project anger outward, but pain remains internal until it is either dealt with, or repressed so long that it becomes depression. Granted, her anger is misdirected at you. Just know the anger is really her pain coming out, which is better than leaving the pain inside.

We do the best we can with our kids and at some point in their lives, they have to take responsibility for their own lives, their own healthy functioning, their own happiness and well being, just like we did, and regardless of any parenting mistakes that were made. Not saying you made any parenting mistakes, but I have never met a parent who was a perfect parent. We do the best we can as parents and hope that will be good enough. Usually, it is.

Blessings SamYeager!


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## MrsHolland

samyeagar said:


> I imagine dealing with all of this is difficult for you in particular Holland, *as a woman who usually has control of herself and her surroundings. I don't mean that in a disparaging way, just as someone who has focus, knows all the pieces and how they move, that sort of way The situation with MrH's ex is something that is not only beyond your control, but something completely alien to you. Your entire set of life skills are largely ineffective, and you feel completely out of your element? Something like that?*
> 
> Yeah, you've always been pretty perceptive. We have been a bit disconnected here lately. It's mainly due to life happening. Wife was in a minor car accident that was really expensive to fix, so money has been pretty tight, and then it's been round after round of sickness passed between each other, so not feeling well, so feeling blah, a whole lot less sex, and so on and so forth. We'll be alright though. Just in one of the slow parts right now.


Spot on. And that is why it is hard to deal with. Lol I said in counselling that it frustrates me because in his shoes I would have told the ex to just f off. Totally not reality because in his shoes I would have not survived, it is easy to be full of bravado when you are not actually in that situation.

The other challenge for us is that we could not be at more polar opposite ends of the spectrum:
MrH V1 and I are co parents and amicable. we are in constant contact about the kids and life. We have family dinners, Christmas, he still socialises with my family etc. We are outliers I have learnt.
For some time MrH V2 wanted to have this sort of peace and amicability with his ex and I encouraged it which I can see now was a mistake. I encouraged it because I did not understand the hell of having an ex with MH issues. 

I hope things pick you Sam and I'm sorry to hear about Mrs Sams car accident.


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## WildMustang

MrsHolland said:


> Sam the thing that I have always struggled with is that when MrH and I met I was free as a bird and was adamant that for a man to be considered LTR material he had to add value to my life, I was already happy and do not need a man to fill any void. What I got was deep love with some massive baggage. I'm just venting here bc it seems like a safe place to do so, you guys understand. I feel for you and WM and everyone that has had their lives hacked at by partners with MH problems.
> 
> MrH's ex is bipolar and has anxiety disorder. Has not worked for 20 plus years and has a family history with MH issues. The stats say that his children have a much higher than average chance of developing MH problems and this is why he has done all he could to protect them till they could start to stand on their own two feet. One of his kids is in therapy but seems to be doing really well, he has moved out from his mums place completely. The other was not impacted as much.
> 
> The **** is about to hit the fan here (have PMed you WM) and even though I am a strong person this MH stuff scares me. The first MrsH is so manipulative it is terrifying to me, I can't even manipulate my kids to clean their rooms lol
> 
> Stay strong people, I applaud you and wish only good for you.
> 
> eta Sammy I have noticed of late you have made some comments on threads that indicate a lack of connection with Mrs Sammy so will pry.... have the two of you sought counselling for the difficulties that an ex with MH brings to a new relationship? MrH was honestly really surprised at the problems this brings to our relationship and it has been good for him to have a 3rd party work though some of these issues.
> 
> If this is all too much of a threadjack WM please say so.


Good Lord, NO, MrsH, this is NOT a thread jack. Not to me and not in my opinion, anyway. It is all so relative and helpful to me and I imagine to others as well. Thank you for conversing so freely and openly. I appreciate everyone's transparency (while also appreciating the need to not be transparent if you can't, for whatever reason).

MrsH, you have a lot of empathy and I thank you for that. And yes, I do understand. It is safe to vent with me. I got your PM and responded and will check again to see if you have sent one since.

Bipolar and anxiety disorder is extremely hard to deal with even though treatable with drugs and therapy, of course assuming they get therapy and take their meds. Some don't. Or only do so sporadically. Some people with bipolar will take their meds when they are in the depressive end of the "Manic-Depressive" cycle but as soon as they start feeling better and approach the manic phase of the cycle, they believe they are fine and don't need the meds, so they quit taking the meds. That's when all hell breaks loose.

Mrs.H, does the XW take her meds on a regular consistent basis?

Thank you for sharing that your husband's XW has bipolar and anxiety disorder. That helps me understand better so I can respond accordingly.


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## MrsHolland

WildMustang said:


> Good Lord, NO, MrsH, this is NOT a thread jack. Not to me and not in my opinion, anyway. It is all so relative and helpful to me and I imagine to others as well. Thank you for conversing so freely and openly. I appreciate everyone's transparency (while also appreciating the need to not be transparent if you can't, for whatever reason).
> 
> MrsH, you have a lot of empathy and I thank you for that. And yes, I do understand. It is safe to vent with me. I got your PM and responded and will check again to see if you have sent one since.
> 
> Bipolar and anxiety disorder is extremely hard to deal with even though treatable with drugs and therapy, of course assuming they get therapy and take their meds. Some don't. Or only do so sporadically. Some people with bipolar will take their meds when they are in the depressive end of the "Manic-Depressive" cycle but as soon as they start feeling better and approach the manic phase of the cycle, they believe they are fine and don't need the meds, so they quit taking the meds. That's when all hell breaks loose.
> 
> Mrs.H, does the XW take her meds on a regular consistent basis?
> 
> Thank you for sharing that your husband's XW has bipolar and anxiety disorder. That helps me understand better so I can respond accordingly.


I don't know if she takes her meds. She has been seeing the same psychiatrist for over a decade which I find odd. Just recently she has changed to a new one. She did an intensive, live in therapy course last year but if anything she is getting worse. There is a lot of Govt support here in the MH sector but the problem is that she really has very little in the way of a social network or support.

Oh and another thing that struck me and caused some resentment was how he could not even see how manipulative she is. Tis clear as daylight to me, an outsider and it used to frustrate me that he could not see through her. Even the tone is her voice is manipulative which is hard to explain.


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## MrsHolland

Oh I meant to say WM that some of the things you have listed for NPD are things I also see in the ex MrsH


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## WildMustang

MrsHolland said:


> Spot on. And that is why it is hard to deal with. Lol I said in counselling that it frustrates me because in his shoes I would have told the ex to just f off. Totally not reality because in his shoes I would have not survived, it is easy to be full of bravado when you are not actually in that situation.
> 
> The other challenge for us is that we could not be at more polar opposite ends of the spectrum:
> MrH V1 and I are co parents and amicable. we are in constant contact about the kids and life. We have family dinners, Christmas, he still socialises with my family etc. We are outliers I have learnt.
> For some time MrH V2 wanted to have this sort of peace and amicability with his ex and I encouraged it which I can see now was a mistake. I encouraged it because I did not understand the hell of having an ex with MH issues.
> 
> I hope things pick you Sam and I'm sorry to hear about Mrs Sams car accident.


That is such a blessing and a rare one at that, for you and MrH V1 to be amicable enough to socialize and do stuff together with kids and family. It speaks volumes about you both. So many people are not able to do that on any level, if at all. 

People with mental health issues do not have it in them to do that. They just don't have it in them. They are not capable. They cannot give it, because they do not have it to give. Try to understand that. 

It's like you expecting me to give you $5 when I don't have even a penny to give you, much less $5. I cannot give you $5 if I don't have $5, and it could be argued that it would be cruel for you to expect and demand me to give you $5 when I don't have $5.

Does that make sense?

I understand MrH V2 wanting peace and amicability with his XW, especially seeing MrH V1 and you model that behavior so beautifully at family functions and in everyday life co-parenting. As he witnessed your x and you, he could see the possibilities and dream that could perhaps be his reality too, with his XW, for the kids, for family, but also for his own sense of "closure" and need for peace and harmony.

Man, I get that...it is enticing to want that. But you have to realize you cannot make it happen. You really have no control other than your own choices and actions. Your own actions are all you have control over, which means you may not ever get that high level of family functioning from your husband's XW. 

You got this, MrsH. Keep your head up! I am rooting for ya!


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## chillymorn69

Congradulations!

You made it to the other side. Hope you find a partner worthy of your life experiences and deserving of your love.

Reguards

Chilly


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## WildMustang

MrsHolland said:


> I don't know if she takes her meds. She has been seeing the same psychiatrist for over a decade which I find odd. Just recently she has changed to a new one. She did an intensive, live in therapy course last year but if anything she is getting worse. There is a lot of Govt support here in the MH sector but the problem is that she really has very little in the way of a social network or support.
> 
> Oh and another thing that struck me and caused some resentment was how he could not even see how manipulative she is. Tis clear as daylight to me, an outsider and it used to frustrate me that he could not see through her. Even the tone is her voice is manipulative which is hard to explain.


I believe you that the XW is manipulative. My niece had bipolar disorder and I know exactly what you are talking about. My niece was extremely manipulative.

Could it be, is it possible, that what your husband really means, when he does not see how manipulative his XW is, that perhaps he sees it as part of her illness and not part of her identity? 

Is it possible that he sees it as out of her control and not something she has control over, and that she is therefore not really responsible for the manipulation, but instead, the manipulation is the result of chemical imbalances in her brain? (whether she does have control over her manipulation tactics is debated even among professionals, so I certainly have no idea whether she has control over it or not)

To you and me, it is within our control whether or not we choose to manipulate someone or not, and hopefully, we are healthy enough to choose not to. But is a person with bipolar and anxiety disorder able to make that choice? To choose not to manipulate? I don't know the answer to that question and I don't know if anyone does, really. I wonder if Mr.H thinks she isn't capable of not manipulating, so he sees it as her not being responsible for it, and therefore, not really manipulating. 

I also wonder if MrH approaches it from a place of extreme compassion for her and her mental illness (not that you don't, please don't misunderstand. It's just that he has such a long history with her and kids with her, whereas your history with her is not as long or as intimate as his). 

And if he does come from a place of extreme compassion for her and her mental illness, is that such a bad thing? Do you see that as somehow taking away from his compassion for you?

I also wonder if MrH is in classic "denial" or if he is just trying to do the best he can for his kids, for you and yes, for his XW too, as a compassionate human.

I see you are also doing the best you can in a very hard situation, especially considering you have no real experience in dealing with people with mental health issues, until now.

For what it's worth, I think you are doing AWESOME, by the way! It is hard for a "Take Charge" type of woman to not fix things and make things right. I get it. 

Thank you for being so transparent with all this, MrsH. It helps me see and understand your perspective because someday soon when I start dating, I am sure my dating prospects may feel as you do in many ways. Your posts help me a LOT, and others reading this, too, I suspect! Thank you!


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## WildMustang

chillymorn69 said:


> Congradulations!
> 
> You made it to the other side. Hope you find a partner worthy of your life experiences and deserving of your love.
> 
> Reguards
> 
> Chilly


Hey, Chilimorn69! Love your name/handle! 

Hell yeah...made it to the other side...by the seat of my pants, LOL, but I am here now! Thank God! 

I swear, it feels like I have been let out of prison, and more so every day I wake up with breath in my lungs!

Thanks for the well wishes!

Feel free to share any dating advice you may have.


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## WildMustang

WildMustang said:


> That is such a blessing and a rare one at that, for you and MrH V1 to be amicable enough to socialize and do stuff together with kids and family. It speaks volumes about you both. So many people are not able to do that on any level, if at all.
> 
> People with mental health issues do not have it in them to do that. They just don't have it in them. They are not capable. They cannot give it, because they do not have it to give. Try to understand that.
> 
> It's like you expecting me to give you $5 when I don't have even a penny to give you, much less $5. I cannot give you $5 if I don't have $5, and it could be argued that it would be cruel for you to expect and demand me to give you $5 when I don't have $5.
> 
> Does that make sense?
> 
> I understand MrH V2 wanting peace and amicability with his XW, especially seeing MrH V1 and you model that behavior so beautifully at family functions and in everyday life co-parenting. As he witnessed your x and you, he could see the possibilities and dream that could perhaps be his reality too, with his XW, for the kids, for family, but also for his own sense of "closure" and need for peace and harmony.
> 
> Man, I get that...it is enticing to want that. But you have to realize you cannot make it happen. You really have no control other than your own choices and actions. Your own actions are all you have control over, which means you may not ever get that high level of family functioning from your husband's XW.
> 
> You got this, MrsH. Keep your head up! I am rooting for ya!



I hope these last few posts I made don't sound like I am saying your husband has compassion and you don't. That is not what I am saying at all. I am just saying he has a lot more experience in dealing with her and has a much longer history and previous intimacy with her. It was not meant as a negative toward you in any way whatsoever. My apologies if it came off that way.


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## chillymorn69

WildMustang said:


> Hey, Chilimorn69! Love your name/handle!
> 
> Hell yeah...made it to the other side...by the seat of my pants, LOL, but I am here now! Thank God!
> 
> I swear, it feels like I have been let out of prison, and more so every day I wake up with breath in my lungs!
> 
> Thanks for the well wishes!
> 
> Feel free to share any dating advice you may have.


Dating advice...lol I'm old school shoot from the hip. Trust until shown otherwise then give them the boot. No time for raindeer games. 

Brutal honesty and mutal attraction .

Thank for the compliment on my handle. Lol

Like i said brutal honesty. 69 is my favorite and I ain't ashamed by it!>


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## WildMustang

chillymorn69 said:


> Dating advice...lol I'm old school shoot from the hip. Trust until shown otherwise then give them the boot. No time for raindeer games.
> 
> Brutal honesty and mutal attraction .
> 
> Thank for the compliment on my handle. Lol
> 
> Like i said brutal honesty. 69 is my favorite and I ain't ashamed by it!>


Well...I am pretty old school myself. Not into the online dating thing. 

Glad to hear you have no shame! Testosterone is a glorious thing!

Trust until shown otherwise then give them the boot and brutal honesty and mutual attraction sounds about right to me!


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## MrsHolland

WildMustang said:


> I hope these last few posts I made don't sound like I am saying your husband has compassion and you don't. That is not what I am saying at all. I am just saying he has a lot more experience in dealing with her and has a much longer history and previous intimacy with her. It was not meant as a negative toward you in any way whatsoever. My apologies if it came off that way.


No it is all good, I understand what you mean. Yes he has compassion for her as a fellow human and the mother of his children. Compassion and sadness at her illness and life situation. It does not take anything away from me or us and I admire his compassion.

And I hear what you are saying about manipulation, our counsellor (who has never met MrsH V1) says that people with these issue know what other peoples weak spots are and even subconsciously manipulate as it is an innate way of being and somewhere in their brain they know it will get their desired result eg kaos and disruption to the intended victim. 

It all does my head in.


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## WildMustang

MrsHolland said:


> No it is all good, I understand what you mean. Yes he has compassion for her as a fellow human and the mother of his children. Compassion and sadness at her illness and life situation. It does not take anything away from me or us and I admire his compassion.
> 
> And I hear what you are saying about manipulation, our counsellor (who has never met MrsH V1) says that people with these issue know what other peoples weak spots are and even subconsciously manipulate as it is an innate way of being and somewhere in their brain they know it will get their desired result eg kaos and disruption to the intended victim.
> 
> It all does my head in.


I can see why it does your head in. It can be overwhelming. This may be one of those challenges that strengthens the bond you have with your husband even more, and also with his kids. He is blessed to have you by his side trying so hard to make this better. 

Feel free to PM me anytime you need to vent.


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## MrsHolland

WM I have tried twice to PM you but seems my PMs aren't working.

Just another week on the crazy train here, lucky I have a SOH about it all today.


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## SunCMars

Emerging Buddhist said:


> What is it with the "28" thing???


ref: divorce, ref: @WildMustang
...........................................................................................................................
Answer:

The time Saturn takes to go 'around' the Sun. It starts with 'seven', as in the Seven Year Itch.
Then it goes to fourteen, then twenty one years, finally arriving at 29.5 years, or so.

Keep in mind that due to the 'orb' of influence, its effect is felt earlier. One year out [one degree out] for the stronger effect, in Progressive and Solar Arc calculations. 
The effect is farther out, say six degrees for transiting Saturn, Uranus. ---> Conjunctions and oppositions, notably.

Obviously, not everyone feels Saturn's effects, or not as strongly. How it affects someone, where it 'impacts' in one's life is dependent on Planetary Natal Placing.
Though the effect can be generalized as being 'unpleasant', seemingly unavoidable breakdown 'somewhere' {Saturn} and change {Uranus}.

Saturn and Uranus break apart the old, usher in the new.
Change is unpleasant for most.

I used to thrive on change. As in job hopping. I love the challenge. Still do, not as much.

....................

Lilith- speaking for The Host. I went through his former words and found 'these' to present to you two.

The Host, RD, has been taken. The Red Queen has him. Maybe always has??


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