# My Chinese Wife has said she wants a divorce



## zeezack

We have known each other for 8 years. Married for 3. Its been a struggle getting a house as my wife was on a 2 year visa and I had founded a company in 2010 and was on a 2 year wait. 

My wife bought a house without my consent in 2012. I claimed it was too far for my work and my family. In 2013 July - I was granted my own mortgage and we nearly got a joint mortgage in May to try and secure a small flat in London. 

She began to become resentful of my family (especially of my mother) and this recently was brought about doubts in her about the future of our marriage. 

I think the key events include: 
- her buying a house on her own, without my approval in the location, and my reluctance to not give up the rented accommodation (1 year tenancy) 
- she went to my mother and father's anniversary meal and appeared bored/glum and withdrawn. No comments were made to her face about the situation, but the feedback was not good from my family's viewpoint. 
- she gossiped to my aunty that my mum doesn't like her. My sister found out and responded with an email regarding her behavior as inappropriate. It was hard for me defend my mother - because my wife will just label me a mummies boy. 
- her biggest fall is in communication - she will often be sharp with me on the phone - may-july. 

For a long time she wanted to have children and bought the house for that purpose. But now she isn't sure if she wants kids. I am not sure what is wrong because she doesn't want to communicate and has been in China for a month - to discuss the issues with her family. She has shut down emotionally and locked down communications. I have tried to console her and tried to explain how I want to make changes (my working hours) to improve our relationship. She is showing signs of "walk away wife" syndrome. I am trying to give her space and time to dwell over things, but I am not sure if this is the best thing for her. If she would secretly prefer me to keep chasing her etc... 

I have tried to write her emails and explain the situation via a letter (from my perspective) to her parents. As I am sure they are concerned and will be discussing the issue with her. I have expressed how much I want to try and make the marriage work, my short and long term goals to compromise to try and make it work. 

I have proposed we see a marriage counselor, but she seems amendment it wouldn't do anything. Perhaps she doesn't feel her behavior is to blame or doesn't want to hear the truth. 

Does anyone have any experience with this situation? I don't believe she really ever wanted to return to the UK, or live in a 2 bedroom house on her own (she has taken the key off me). I've just secured the keys to the flat and have been moving stuff - including her stuff out of the rented apartment. I tried to console with her on August 26th but she kicked me out of the house, even lost her temper and tried to hit me with a chair. I asked if there was anyone else and she said "I don't know". 

Its been 6 weeks now and she won't return to the UK for another 2 weeks. I am left not knowing if she will file for divorce in October. If she is emotionally involved with someone else. Or if she will give the marriage a second shot with consideration to my compromises and discuss about having children (if this has been the cause on her mind for wanting to leave - like I may not make a good father etc.., that I won't change). I am trying to control my fears/pains/anxieties and try and take things day by day


----------



## A Bit Much

It sounds like she can't stand you and wants to be done.

Why don't you move forward with your plans without her and express mail her the divorce papers to sign? I'm sure she wouldn't have any problems obliging you.


----------



## zeezack

I am waiting for her to return in October. In early July she said she didn't want a divorce. I wanted to spend more time with her in July, but my grandfather was going through a very serious foot infection - which eventually led to an amputation as of recent. This is part of the reason my sister defended my mother. My wife has taken on a new job in May - and I think her probation period has been extended. She may be working later and as such has become even more unhappy.


----------



## A Bit Much

zeezack said:


> I am waiting for her to return in October. In early July she said she didn't want a divorce. I wanted to spend more time with her in July, but my grandfather was going through a very serious foot infection - which eventually led to an amputation as of recent. This is part of the reason my sister defended my mother. My wife has taken on a new job in May - and I think her probation period has been extended. She may be working later and as such has become even more unhappy.


She doesn't sound like she wants to be married to you... or did I not read any of that in your post? 

She's doing things without you. Buying a house under your nose was a HUGE display of her independence from you, don't you think?



> She has shut down emotionally and locked down communications. I have tried to console her and tried to explain how I want to make changes (my working hours) to improve our relationship. She is showing signs of "walk away wife" syndrome. I am trying to give her space and time to dwell over things, but I am not sure if this is the best thing for her. If she would secretly prefer me to keep chasing her etc...





> I have proposed we see a marriage counselor, but she seems amendment it wouldn't do anything. Perhaps she doesn't feel her behavior is to blame or doesn't want to hear the truth.


A woman that wants her marriage doesn't act like the above.


----------



## zeezack

I see what you are saying. She was talking about having kids up until June and that she didn't want a divorce. Her feelings against my mother and the interference from my sister may have shoved her feelings away from my family. 

I was shocked when she bought the house by herself. I did want to do things jointly, and didn't want her to use her parents money as a loan etc... She grew tired of her belongings sitting in crates at my parents house and she wanted to establish a nest for future children. She claimed she did it for us and for a time we were making it work.


----------



## zeezack

She became bitter against my family - for their lack of support and funding. She was considering going over to my parents to discuss the matter in June. But given my grandfather's condition I tried to persuade her otherwise. It seems she brewed in anger and bitterness over the period of a month (July)


----------



## A Bit Much

zeezack said:


> I see what you are saying. She was talking about having kids up until June and that she didn't want a divorce. Her feelings against my mother and the interference from my sister may have shoved her feelings away from my family.
> 
> I was shocked when she bought the house by herself. I did want to do things jointly, and didn't want her to use her parents money as a loan etc... She grew tired of her belongings sitting in crates at my parents house and she wanted to establish a nest for future children. She claimed she did it for us and for a time we were making it work.


If all of that were true ^^^ she wouldn't be in China with her own family and not taking your calls or answering your email.

I think she was done when she bought the house and you didn't move into it with her. If you're trying to communicate with her and she's shutting you down, it's time to stop, do a 180 and take care of YOU. Give her a time frame to contact you... say 90 days. If she does NOT contact you regarding the state of your relationship, you file papers and get it going. 

A woman that loves you wouldn't do this. She can be mad, she can be hurt, but that love if it's strong and she's committed to you wouldn't keep her from talking to you and trying to work things out. She doesn't love you.


----------



## zeezack

She is in China as a holiday she had booked months ago. In fact we were together when buying some of the biscuits to give to her family - back in June. Its only recent now from mid-August to now that she has been on communication lock down. I guess she wanted to talk things through with her parents. She said she would talk things through properly when she is back - late September.


----------



## zeezack

I would say it could be an intense form of emotional abuse with her passive aggressive behavior gone into over drive.

Non-Communication, Avoiding/Ignoring, Evading , Withholding, Ambiguity, Victimisation

What is Passive Aggressive Behaviour?


----------



## greenpearl

I don't know anything about you and your wife, but you face a tough battle here. 

You have different cultural backgrounds. You said that your wife didn't look cheerful around your family, maybe she feels that your family doesn't treat her very well. A person who doesn't have much confidence usually thinks that other people look down upon her. 

She might be passive aggressive. Seeing you begging her makes her happy. But she might have really given up on your marriage.


----------



## EleGirl

zeezack said:


> *She became bitter against my family - for their lack of support and funding*. She was considering going over to my parents to discuss the matter in June. But given my grandfather's condition I tried to persuade her otherwise. It seems she brewed in anger and bitterness over the period of a month (July)


She was expecting your family to help buy her (and maybe you) a house? Why did she have this expectation?


----------



## Wise Fairy

Hi Z, just caught your thread here, sorry for your troubles.
Doesn't make sense her buying her own house, did you help fund it I wonder? She should be in constant contact with you, since you would be concerned for her safety if there is love there. Did she buy the house to maybe bring her family there have you considered that? It doesn't sound like a very bright and happy future ahead, and sounds a very lonely one. Throwing chairs is also abuse. I could see her missing her family that's understandable so hope she gets that fix at the moment. Do you even have a key to the house she bought? Sounds like she is putting everything on her terms to time to get it together while she is out of country, or she will get you together when she gets back.


----------



## zeezack

Its very difficult to say Greenpearl. She was alright and happy from 2010-April 2012. Then she wobbled a bit and started to build up resentment about my family. Didn't approve of my sister's relationship breakup - how my parents came to her aid. Didn't approve of my sister's tattoo (small) on her foot. She started to consider my mother pretentious. My father is Asian (Indian), and she felt more associated to him with his cultural background, but even around May 2013 started to consider he has been westernized. She started to reject the gifts my parents would give her. 

Like this - I went up to Hitchin (where her home is) with some of her stuff from the London flat. I had a bag that contained some tomato and lettuce seeds. We had a fairly good weekend together, eating dinner, watching a film at the cinema etc... very relaxing. But on the monday morning she completely flipped over these seeds. It was like 7:30 in the morning and I was starting to ensure I had all my stuff ready for work (laptop). She comes out with "I wish your mum never met your dad". Now I've become very patient with her over the years. Maybe 5 years ago I would have got angry about something like this. But I replied to her calmly - "that's not a very nice thing to say". She reinforced it to be true. I left the house calmly at 7:35 - I walked to the station - 20mins. I left earlier because she usually takes her bike and I had assumed I would meet her at the station to take the same train.

She had become so angry, that by the time the 8:00 train arrived I couldn't see her. I texted her and said I couldn't find you - and what she had done was take an earlier train. This event occurred around June.

She started this new job in May. I wasn't able to spend much time with her in July because my grandfather had to have an amputation. She had requested her own space and time - which I thought would be good so she can get ahead start with her work. 

Now I do have a confession of my own - I like to go film and comic conventions, she doesn't really appreciate this. I had asked if I could go to one in Germany - given I have an oil painting that I wanted to get signed by the old Star Wars cast. She gave me permission to go in May. 

So July I went to a convention and also spent time with my grandfather who just lost his leg and had to go into a home - so handling vascula dementia away from his wife.

Back to my wife - she was already showing signs of non-emotion and distancing and around 1st August came to the flat to collect more of her stuff. I was going to go and spend the weekend with her but she insisted she will come down and put stuff in her own suitcase. She packed away some of her shoes etc.. and even went to Waitroise. She just wanted to hold the shopping basket the whole time - as if I wasn't there at all.

By August 13th - I went over to home and tried to get an explanation as to what we were going to do for our anniversary (14th). She had told me on the phone it wasn't important. So I had panicked and took the train to see her. She then said in a non-emotional sense that we are two different people, nothing to be sorry about, appeared non-emphatic towards my grandfather and said she wanted a divorce. I gave her the house key and left like a gentleman. She seemed more concerned about getting on with her work.

I tried to give her some space and time and returned to the home on August 26th. I confessed to her that I really love her and want to try and make things worked. She felt that she couldn't separate me from my family and that she had been left on her own to cry on her own too many times. I left again and this was the last I saw her. I texted her later on the week how upset I was because I was hoping we would maybe start a family at some point in the year. (she is older than me, 33 about to turn 34 in October. I am 30.). She had spoken about wanting children in the earlier part of the year and last year. She replied ambiguously to the text "will talk about it properly when I am back." 


Its been 4-5 weeks and I have not had any contact from her since. I know she has been reading emails from me - wishing her Happy Mid-Autumn festival, plans I have to turn my life around and change for the better and my desires for her to be the mother of my children.

We have been together for about 9 years and we are first girlfriend/boyfriend. So she doesn't have any other experiences with men. 

I am just taking things day by day - trying to ensure my income is stable, spending some time with my friends and family - and cleaning up the state of my living condition - taking control. I can really only wait now until she returns in late September and see what she wants to do in October.


----------



## zeezack

EleGirl said:


> She was expecting your family to help buy her (and maybe you) a house? Why did she have this expectation?


She is mainland Chinese. From her belief - its common for a man to have a house before he can even find a girlfriend. Chinese parents usually give a lot of money to their children to support them in the future.


----------



## greenpearl

EleGirl said:


> She was expecting your family to help buy her (and maybe you) a house? Why did she have this expectation?


EleGirl, 

That's not surprising for Chinese. In China, parents usually get everything ready for their children. This is our culture. She has to get over that thinking though.


----------



## zeezack

Wise Fairy said:


> Hi Z, just caught your thread here, sorry for your troubles.
> Doesn't make sense her buying her own house, did you help fund it I wonder? She should be in constant contact with you, since you would be concerned for her safety if there is love there. Did she buy the house to maybe bring her family there have you considered that? It doesn't sound like a very bright and happy future ahead, and sounds a very lonely one. Throwing chairs is also abuse. I could see her missing her family that's understandable so hope she gets that fix at the moment. Do you even have a key to the house she bought? Sounds like she is putting everything on her terms to time to get it together while she is out of country, or she will get you together when she gets back.



Its been hard - when we married and she came back to the UK on a spouse visa. I was living in a bedsit in London. We both lived there for about a year until they needed to renovate the bedsits. I was sponsoring her the whole time, trying to pay for the rent/bills/food/outings. I helped her get a job alongside my career set - it was the only list of job contacts I had.

She became a project manager. 

I was earning more money - but because of my self-employed status I couldn't get onto the mortgage ladder. 

We had tried (using her as a sole applicant) to get a place in Shepherd's bush but it fell through. We had both agreed on this place.

After the bedsit - I rented out a studio for us both. It was more expensive but I was able to afford it. This time I was able to provide her a private shower/kitchin and a proper bed. We were ok for about 2-3 months. We had just signed a 12 month tenancy agreement and I had assumed we would wait until we could get a joint mortgage together. Anyhow she tells me out of the blue she just put down a deposit in a place outside of London. I was annoyed - my working hours are sporadic and I was supporting us both to live in London, waiting until I was able to get a mortgage too.

So she bought the house on her own. Its a lovely house - although I feel a bit too far away from work - and my family - which she has started to feel resentment for. But I tried to make it work - tried to spend as much time with her as possible over the weekend and call her up during the weekdays. Sometimes I wouldn't get home (London) till 7. Getting to the home she bought would take another hour. I didn't help fund her to get the house - she received funds from her family. She had also rejected wanting to use my set of funds as part of it came from my family.

She did buy the house with the intention of having children and having her family come over to help. You are right - she is putting down a future which is lonely. I don't think she would prefer to live in a 2 bedroom house on her own, no husband, no children, in a foreign country where she is away from her parents. This is one of the reasons why I am so concerned and so patient with her. As against all the problems I am her only family member here in the UK.

I have just this moment obtained my own mortgage to resolve my own living expenses and stop paying rent for 2 people when its just me living in London. I have told her that I want to change my working regime, spend more time with her and ensure we go to China more often to see her family.

Currently I don't have a key to the house. She didn't give me one straight away when she bought the house and even when I have had a key - she would get angry - mostly about my family and take it away.

She was planning to go back to China anyhow. In fact I had asked her in May that we need to try and do positive proactive things, like take our honeymoon, take on new hobbies together, go to China more often etc.. so ironically in August I could have gone to China for our honeymoon as well as see her parents.

I wrote her parents a letter to explain my perception of the events - as I have no direct contact with them, and only she speaks to them. So I have no idea in what tone or what part of the story she has told them. I was very concerned and wanted to ensure they got an uncut version of the events, my intentions and plans. I like her parents and wanted to ensure that I am trying to support her and be as patient as I need to be for her.

I am hoping her parents will encourage her to try and make the marriage work/resolve problems/conflicts/resume communication again. As they just gave her money (a year) to buy a house and I am sure they don't want to help fund her for an immediate divorce.


----------



## greenpearl

Zeezack, 

You two have been together for a long time, so this isn't a newly married couple's fight. 

The way she is treating you tells me that she doesn't want to talk to you much. I guess she has given up on your marriage. 

China is a very different country now. People didn't make much twenty years ago, marrying a foreigner was a boost for their financial situation. But now if you have the skill and knowledge, you get paid very well in China. 

Well, if she doesn't want to communicate, begging her to come back to you won't help you much. If she still wants to come back to you, she won't act this way. 

You are pretty young, there are plenty of opportunities to start a new life and be happy. If the tree is rotten, then it is going to die.


----------



## zeezack

greenpearl said:


> EleGirl,
> 
> That's not surprising for Chinese. In China, parents usually get everything ready for their children. This is our culture. She has to get over that thinking though.


Its been hard for me. One instance I am trying to support both of us and build up my career to be a better provider. To support her during pregnancy etc.. the next instance she goes ahead and buys a house without discussing it with me. I understand her reasons and although I am struggling to handle my work and living arrangements alongside her. I would rather have children with her than not. So this is part of my upset. 

She and her parents probably label me an ungrateful bastard. I suppose its true from a point of view, but its very tricky for me to just give up the rented flat/my own chances of getting onto the property ladder to move all the computer equipment into a house when I sometimes don't have a key, get kicked out of the house because of her rage for my family, and have no legal obligation to. I have no contribution towards her mortgage, my name is not on the bills. I am having doubts though now that maybe I should have taken the leap and tried to make it work. I can only hope she gives me a chance to let me prove myself to her that I want to live with her more, take less jobs, work from home. Would be lovely to cook together, she used to enjoy that.


----------



## zeezack

greenpearl said:


> Zeezack,
> 
> You two have been together for a long time, so this isn't a newly married couple's fight.
> 
> The way she is treating you tells me that she doesn't want to talk to you much. I guess she has given up on your marriage.
> 
> China is a very different country now. People didn't make much twenty years ago, marrying a foreigner was a boost for their financial situation. But now if you have the skill and knowledge, you get paid very well in China.
> 
> Well, if she doesn't want to communicate, begging her to come back to you won't help you much. If she still wants to come back to you, she won't act this way.
> 
> You are pretty young, there are plenty of opportunities to start a new life and be happy. If the tree is rotten, then it is going to die.


I know. I know we both wanted children earlier this year. I know she cared up until end of June. I am unsure if its just a sign of passive aggressive behavior, her overwhelmed state at work and is unable emotionally to handle herself or resolve problems. 

Although she seemed not to care. I am concerned about her living in a 2 bedroom house on her own, even if it is her own choice.

I will remain patient and see what direction she wants to go in in October. This cycle occurred many years ago - when we were boyfriend/girlfriend.


----------



## greenpearl

zeezack said:


> I know. I know we both wanted children earlier this year. I know she cared up until end of June. I am unsure if its just a sign of passive aggressive behavior, her overwhelmed state at work and is unable emotionally to handle herself or resolve problems.
> 
> Although she seemed not to care. I am concerned about her living in a 2 bedroom house on her own, even if it is her own choice.
> 
> I will remain patient and see what direction she wants to go in in October. This cycle occurred many years ago - when we were boyfriend/girlfriend.


It was disrespectful of her buying that house without discussing with you first. But she is Chinese, so it's not surprising to me. Not giving you a key shows her disrespect even more. 

Being patient is a great way dealing with this kind of situation. October is coming very soon, you will find out what she really wants. 

Sometimes women are funny, they want you to baby them and spend a lot of time with them, but they also want you to be a strong and confident man who can protect them from all kinds of dangers.


----------



## zeezack

greenpearl said:


> It was disrespectful of her buying that house without discussing with you first. But she is Chinese, so it's not surprising to me. Not giving you a key shows her disrespect even more.
> 
> Being patient is a great way dealing with this kind of situation. October is coming very soon, you will find out what she really wants.
> 
> Sometimes women are funny, they want you to baby them and spend a lot of time with them, but they also want you to be a strong and confident man who can protect them from all kinds of dangers.


Yes I will be patient. July was a really tough period for me, with my grandfather and all loosing his leg and fading due to vascular dementia. Her empathy switch really went off around mid-July. I can only hope its reset itself by the time she gets back in October.


----------



## bandit.45

Divorce her. She's not the only Chinese woman on Earth. There are a few around you know. Like, um, one billion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larsson78

greenpearl said:


> It was disrespectful of her buying that house without discussing with you first. But she is Chinese, so it's not surprising to me. Not giving you a key shows her disrespect even more.


As someone of Chinese descent, I must say I find OP's wife behaviour surprising. 

Also, the way she treats your family members is NOT appropriate. To my understanding it is NOT Chinese. If she does that to a Chinese husband, the latter would be enraged. 

Seriously, it sounds like there's underlying problems with your marriage that she has endured all these years. Please correct me if I am wrong..


----------



## moxy

You guys have serious problems with communication. If this marriage has a chance of working, then, not only do both of you have to be committed, but you both have to go to marriage counseling together. At this point, though, your wife sounds like she has checked out of the marriage. Either she is confused about what she wants or she knows that she doesn't want the marriage but is unable to express it to you. 

So, the way I see it, at this point, you have two choices:
1) Wait until she comes back to see if she decides to re-commit to the marriage and then proceed with that reconciliation only if you have counseling to help you guys resolve the issues that caused this split.
2) Recognize that she is showing you that she isn't invested in the marriage right now and file for divorce to push her into a decision; either she will sign and you will have your answer, or she will fight you on it because she wants to try to work it out.

Either way, you need to focus less of your energy on trying to read between the lines and figure out her intentions and her thoughts and you need to focus more of your energy on figuring out how to make room in your life for the things you need and want. Her absence is the perfect opportunity for you to go see an individual counselor to help you figure that stuff out! Her absence is also the perfect time for you to make yourself as desirable and attractive and confident as possible by working out, taking care of yourself, and re-examining whether your actions are worthy in general. Once you pick a path (1 or 2), tell her that you will either wait or file, and, then, do the 180 and work on yourself until something else changes.

Your life doesn't revolve around her. Make it revolve around you. And then, if you make the right space for her in your life and she is pleased with occupying it or willing to work with you to configure a new relationship, then you can consider reconciling and starting over. However, trying to read her mind so you can ensure that she comes back to you will simply not work.


----------



## zeezack

bandit.45 said:


> Divorce her. She's not the only Chinese woman on Earth. There are a few around you know. Like, um, one billion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand that of course. But I do have an 9 year relationship with her. August 14th was our anniversary and I was in a mindset of celebrating it with her, so I am not going to do anything brash off the bat. Also I've just purchased a flat and I don't really want to divorce her. Even if her behavior has been erratic.


----------



## zeezack

larsson78 said:


> As someone of Chinese descent, I must say I find OP's wife behaviour surprising.
> 
> Also, the way she treats your family members is NOT appropriate. To my understanding it is NOT Chinese. If she does that to a Chinese husband, the latter would be enraged.
> 
> Seriously, it sounds like there's underlying problems with your marriage that she has endured all these years. Please correct me if I am wrong..


My sister's letter kind of tackled this - that she wasn't behaving with respect. I feel that it was maybe my sister's letter that toppled her.

She really only started to show signs of resentment towards my parents a year ago. I feel it was the buying a house thing on your own that did it, as my family didn't know how to describe the situation. So it maybe came off awkward. It was difficult for me as we had a housewarming party of sorts in March 2013, but I had no joint obligation in the mortgage as my wife had jumped the boat early.

I had proposed the idea of her selling the house and us combining our deposits together - to choose a bigger place - closer to London. She refused and this angered her mother especially. So its been treading on egg shells really since my sister sent that letter in June. 

I left my wife get on with her work in July and spent more time with my grandfather who just lost his leg to gangrene. I thought she would understand from a global perspective, but it appears her isolation only fested her bitterness and anger.


----------



## bandit.45

zeezack said:


> I understand that of course. But I do have an 9 year relationship with her. August 14th was our anniversary and I was in a mindset of celebrating it with her, so I am not going to do anything brash off the bat. Also I've just purchased a flat and I don't really want to divorce her. Even if her behavior has been erratic.


She doesn't care about how long the two of you have been together. Sounds clear to me she has zero respect for you. Do you really want to stay married to a woman who doesn't respect you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## A Bit Much

If you are determined to live in limbo for the next 6 weeks, nothing anyone here can say can change your mind OP.

I hope at the end of October you have an answer, but I'm going to bet that she will ignore you and not say anything about your relationship. She's comfortable where she is in China with her family.


----------



## zeezack

A Bit Much said:


> If you are determined to live in limbo for the next 6 weeks, nothing anyone here can say can change your mind OP.
> 
> I hope at the end of October you have an answer, but I'm going to bet that she will ignore you and not say anything about your relationship. She's comfortable where she is in China with her family.


She is with her family sure. But she will be returning in late September. She owns a 2 bedroom house. She was angry when she left in a passive aggressive way. I understand what you guys say, just I have a lot of attachment at the moment with her.


----------



## A Bit Much

zeezack said:


> She is with her family sure. But she will be returning in late September. She owns a 2 bedroom house. She was angry when she left in a passive aggressive way. I understand what you guys say, just I have a lot of attachment at the moment with her.


So you're thinking the house is so important to her that she'll come running back to the UK to work it out with you?

I think if this were true, she would be at the house now. I believe this house isn't as important to her as you think. She can rent it or sell it or do nothing with it as she is now. It's hers to do as she pleases. You don't have access to it. You can't even move into it if you wanted to.

She's not speaking to you. Are you certain she'll be returning? Late September is next week. You are attached to her, but that is a very one sided feeling from what you've said about her here. You are the one hanging onto the idea she's wanting this to work out. She's not even speaking to you.


----------



## zeezack

A Bit Much said:


> So you're thinking the house is so important to her that she'll come running back to the UK to work it out with you?
> 
> I think if this were true, she would be at the house now. I believe this house isn't as important to her as you think. She can rent it or sell it or do nothing with it as she is now. It's hers to do as she pleases. You don't have access to it. You can't even move into it if you wanted to.
> 
> She's not speaking to you. Are you certain she'll be returning? Late September is next week. You are attached to her, but that is a very one sided feeling from what you've said about her here. You are the one hanging onto the idea she's wanting this to work out. She's not even speaking to you.



Well the house is hers, she has a job in the UK and has a mortgage to pay. I am sure she will return to the house at least in late September.

No she is currently not speaking, yes it is one sided. She may consider working it out, she may not. She could rent or sell the house, but I know from a lot of previous conversations she did not want to do that. But sure if she does file for divorce, she may go back to China to be with family. All of these are potential options.

Just trying to be a patient man, look after my own income, health and fitness, and emotions.


----------



## A Bit Much

Maybe in the next week or two she'll tell you what you want to hear, and come back.

It's does not bode well that she's gone dark on you. Good luck to you and update us next month on what happened.


----------



## zeezack

I got my first reply back. 

Subject: Thanks for the parcels
Contents: 

Hello x, 

I have received two parcels from you. Thanks for sending them. My mum wrote a letter to you and your family. I will translate it and email it to you all. 

y


----------



## Coffee Amore

I hope those aren't your real names in the reply. Might want to use an alias if you're concerned about privacy.


----------



## zeezack

I have yet to see her mother's letter. 

Last week I got this response.

"Listen carefully. I do not appreciate you sending me emails at 2.48 in the morning. The chance of the recovery of the marriage is impossible, if you follow your family's bedtime habit and stay up late. If you are able to go to bed before 10.30pm, I might consider the possibility of reconsidering the marriage. Of course, this is only one of the very basic requirements. "



and today - I called her workplace to see if she is ok. If she is at work/not fired etc...

her reply was this.


subject : "Can you please stop calling the company!!!!!!!! I'm divorcing you!!!‏"

message: "x, 

STOP STALKING ME AND CALLING THE COMPANY. YES, I HAVE DECIDED TO DIVORCE YOU．THERE IS NO POINT OF GOING ON LIKE THIS. "



"BECAUSE I HAVE LEARNT TO FOLLOW MY HEART AND TO NOT HAVE TO BE TOO NICE ALL THE TIME! "


"x,

YES, DIVORCE IS THE ONLY SOLUTION! YOU THINK TOOO MUCH ABOUT YOUR SELF. YOU NEVER THINK ABOUT MY FEELINGS. YOU FEEL YOU ARE HAPPY, BUT I AM NOT HAPPY. I TRIED VERY HARD, BUT IN RETURN IS YOUR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING AND UNAPPRECIATION FROM YOUR IMMEDIATE FAMILIES. I NEED TO THINK FOR MYSELF NOW. HENCE, I REALLY WANT TO START A LIFE WITHOUT YOU AND YOUR FAMILY. EVER SINCE WE STARTED GOING OUT, THERE WAS CONSTANT UNHAPPINESS. I WAS THE ONE, I HAVE BEEN THE ONE WHO SUFFERED FROM THIS RELATIONSHIP. PLEASE BE LIKE A MAN AND GET DIVORCED. MY LIFE IS FAR MORE PEACEFUL WITHOUT YOU. ALSO, THE TORNED RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN YOUR SISTER AND ME CAN NEVER BE AMENDED BECAUSE YOUR SISTER CAN'T EVEN AMEND HER RELATIONSHIP WITH HER GRANDMA, LET ALONE WITH SOMEONE SHE COMPLETELY HAS NO BLOOD CONNECTION WITH. AFTER ALL, YOU AND YOUR FAMILY ARE A VERY DIFFERENT TYPE OF PEOPLE TO ME AND MY FAMILY - DIFFERENT WAY OF THINKING, DIFFERENT OUTLOOK. I SAID MANY TIMES THAT THIS CANNOT BE CHANGED. IT'S NOTHING ABOUT WHO'S WRONG OR WHO'S RIGHT, IT'S ABOUT DIFFERENT PEOPLE, DIFFERENT FAMILY CULTURES. PLEASE PLEASE LET ME GO. I WANTED TO END THE RELATIONSHIP SO MANY TIMES IN THE PAST EVEN BEFORE THE MARRIAGE. I AM VERY SURE NOW THAT THE DECISION OF ENDING THE RELATIONSHIP IS RIGHT FOR ME. SO PLEASE PLEASE LET ME GO. DO NOT STALK ME EVER AGAIN. "


"LISTEN, IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH MY PARENTS. IT'S MY DECISION. WHY YOU ARE SOOOOO DOG-HEADED!!! WHO DON'T YOU LISTEN TO WHAT OTHER PERSON SAYS? I SAID I REALLY WANT TO GET CLEAR OF THE RELATIONSHIP. I WILL SEND YOU A DIVORCE LETTER SHORTLY. "


----------



## nevergveup

Sorry,you have to deal with this.I wonder if she has
been cheating on you.

She has not given you any real communication or told
you how she has really felt.

Does she want you to file for divorce?
If she files does this go against her culture?
I think she is hiding a lot of lies.

She comes across so angry and is blaming you
for everything.My advice is divorce her,maybe
she would be happier with a chinese husband.


----------



## zeezack

I wonder also if she has had/is having an emotional affair - like she has found a person of interest in her new job. But I can not tell.

I really thought she would have tried to discuss things properly in person. Last week she showed a glimmer of hope over something easily achievable - "bed at 10:30". Then the following week - the immense amount of irreparable damage?

I think she is very passive aggressive and would treat any husband like this eventually - in terms of silent treatment communication.


----------



## NextTimeAround

I bet that she did not give you the keys to the house so that you would not be able to squat in it.


----------



## Eden1973

Hey Zeezack,

I read your thread from the beginning and before I got to what’s going on recently, this is what “stuck out” to me:

Sidenote: There is an article on the Marriage Builders website titled “Why Women Leave”. I believe that the number one reason was “neglect”.

I’m offering a different perspective here, but when I was reading what you wrote, I found myself asking, “does he put his family & his job before his wife.” We are reading things from your perspective but it appears that she has been building up resentment for years because maybe in her eyes “she” was not a priority for you. What I’m hearing:

-She called you “selfish”.

-You were upset that she desired to move 1 hour away from “your family” and “your job”. She went out and bought a house 1 hour away from “your family” and “your job”. She’s maybe starving for some one on one time with her husband. She was ready to start a family and be with you without the constant distractions of the job and the family but was met with a less than pleasant responds from you and your family. Could scream, “am I/us/we a priority”? 

-She’s in a foreign country with you. You leave her on occasion to tend to sick family members and go to these conventions alone while she’s left to herself. Remember her comment, “I’ve been left behind/alone to cry too many time”. 

-She has to deal with being confronted by your sister concerning her behavior around the family or gossip with aunty. Some could say that it’s only your place to confront your wife of things of this matter not your sister. How often does she have to deal with the opinions of “your family”? How often has she been made to take a back seat to your family? Yeah, she couldn’t take it anymore and the letter from sis was the final straw. 

-Does she have to compete with your family?

-She complains about what time you go to bed at 2ish in the morning verses a 10:30 bedtime. Did she go to bed at night alone a lot while you worked or chatted with family and cried herself to sleep maybe on countless nights due to loneliness? 

-How much quality alone time did you all together exploring things that you both like to do together or was there usually family involved? How did you both invest in each other and equally meeting each other’s needs?

-What are your wife’s needs? 

All I say is step back and take a look at your part in the demise of this marriage. How did you contribute to this breakdown? Was your wife a priority in the way she would recognize? Just a few things to consider, could you or would you ever consider reducing the amount of time you spend with your family for the best interest of your marriage? Would that be gut wrenching thing for you to consider? Could you find some other activity that you could both enjoy together verses the conventions that you do separate from her?

So, what was your part?


----------



## zeezack

yes Eden1973, I concur on some of these issues - that the main culprit here was neglect. Although I didn't go along with her decisions initially - I would have considered things differently if I had known it would come to this. I could have eased back on the work, reduce the number of paychecks and live/spend time with my wife. Consider early this year to have started a family in February/March. I felt that I had pushed forward on other things and had not taken her feelings on board enough. 

My wife said a similar thing in reference to my sister's email. I do feel this was a final straw.

I do want to take on new activities and hobbies with my wife and I had planned to ease back on work.


----------



## Wise Fairy

ZZ

Hi, after reading your wife's letter I can see why she was really upset, she was away from her family and only had yours to turn to. The unsettled situation with your sister has tormented her, and I am sure that you have taken your families side and that has made her feel de-valued.

How do I know this because I am in USA and my family is in England, and I can tell you it took me about 10 years to settle, and my ex's family was brutal to me at times even though I am a sweet, caring loving person, my culture UK and growing up was different, and they were not there to turn to when things got tough I learnt to be resilient to their comments, and to be strong, much like your wife. 

She probably felt like you didn't support her, unfortunately it was probably hard for her to relate to the UK way of life and she is right there is the major matter of different cultures. 

Sounds like she has been unhappy for a long time, sometimes people settle down but sometimes it's a lot harder. Maybe she didn't make a lot of friends in the UK. It does sound like she wanted to settle since she had a good job though, so tried to put some roots down.

At this point I think you need to respect her decision, and give her the space she needs to work this out. 

She is saying that you were selfish and didn't think about her feelings, at least she is being honest and telling you how she felt. 

You do keep reiterating about starting a family with her, but you both are so far away from that right now because of your situation, and you shouldn't push this button with her the way things are. 

Maybe you should ask her how she feels, but she also sais that you won't listen. 

She's given you a lot of information just in that short paragraph.

ZZ I think as others have said she didn't feel like a priority, and your sister and her input have probably toppled her and probably said something to her in the past. Did you defend your wife with your family?

Something to think about ZZ also you talk about your gaming, star wars and kid stuff, and as she sais be a man, it's all there and how you read and listen and understand what she is saying, she just isn't telling you how you were those things so you get it. 

Also I know there are two sides to every story. 

Peace


----------



## Eden1973

Zeezack, my heart goes out to you & sorry you are in this position. Not sure your wife will return as she in her way in her mind has suffered way too long & now that she's broken away doesn't have to deal with any of it any more. Now everything for her is on her terms, she's been liberated & found peace. Only time will tell if she'll return, very doubtful . I wouldn't contact her anymore, just give her space.

I asked you your part so you can learn from this & grow. Marriage should be like a partnership where two people come together, share life together & grow together. Not where one gets to do/keep all their comforts at the expense of another or one party taking the other for granted. Sometimes we do that unknowingly. 

I was married for 14 years before divorced & now recently remarried. Woo wee, I learned some lessons & still learning. Currently in new marriage, we both realized that we had some selfish & childish behaviors that were anti-marriage. But we're working on it purposefully now to do better .

You are still young if this doesn't work out. Make a choice now to do better & be better in your future love relationships. Only one you can control is you.


----------



## zeezack

Oh man. Its her birthday today - and now my Uncle has sent her an email.

Things just seem to get worse. I wish he hadn't sent anything - at least waited a few weeks more.



From: y
To: z
Subject: RE: Psychologically grow up.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 07:43:49 +0000

x, you're very good at seeking support. That's great. You will have no doubt receiving the divorce letter from me. 

From: z
To: y
Subject: Psychologically grow up.
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 22:48:58 +0100

yyy,

Do you know the difference between ego dystonic and ego syntonic behaviour ? Thought not. So I will explain.

Ego syntonic – the person views their psychological functioning to be perfectly normal =yet it often causes causes problems for others
or blocks for themselves towards valued living. The sad thing is the person is blind to the way they think, feel and behave –and
consider that the problems that arise from this are the fault of others and nothing whatsoever to do with them. 

Ego dystonic – the person begins to realise, at last gain insight into their own psychological functioning and just may be
contributing to their problems – not necessarily only with the relationship they have with their own selves – but also mainly with
interpersonal relationships.

You show and take no insight, ownership or emotional responsibility for your own contribution to the marriages decline.
You blame every one but yourself - it is all my families fault – (this by the way is called the self-serving bias). 

Buying the house in Hitchin without agreement or compromise was an incredibly selfish action, -- married couples just do not
take these actions – you compromise – wait – give the other person time.......none of which you did. 

You make negative comments in the E mail to xxabout my niece and her relationship with her Grandma-
what on Earth are you talking about ???

It is YOU WHO HAS PERSONALITY ORGANISATION PROBLEMS, - but sadly due to ego syntonic factors you are completely
blind to them. Unless you do something about these , good luck for the future – you will need it.

You have now been told this twice by two separate people, independent of each other and on separate occasions and times , (niece and myself) 
both of whom have had extensive psychological knowledge and therapy training. Can you not see it for yourself ? Of course you are more at
peace being alone – you have total control over yourself and your environment – not another person to have to relate to,
make compromises for, tolerate and be flexible, – I could go on...... 

It is so sad, because there are very lovely parts to your personality, this makes me regret that xx,
and us as a family, are going to lose those parts of you ....but ...you have got it into your head a total misconception
of my sisters and nieces’s views of you. A total misconception. (See below on ideas of self reference and over personalisation)

1) You have an obsessional personality – with highly excessive and overly rigid attitudes between what is right and wrong, in all
sort of areas of life, and this is called back and white thinking. The world is just not like that – it is often grey and paradoxical.
But you cannot seem to get your head around this. You show little ability to be flexible, or to empathise or show sensitivity to other
people’s feelings.

2) You blame everyone and everything (family, culture etc) – except yourself – you have very poor insight into your own
inter-personal behaviours and your own intra-personal psychological functioning.

3) You experience ideas of self – reference, – you over-personalise, and read meanings into
what my family say or do – and then take offence over what are in fact are totally innocuous remarks.

4) You were fully aware of xx closeness to his family when you married him – why then now use this as
a weapon against him ? 

Incredibly your e-mail to xxstates you had doubts even before the marriage – this is astonishing -
can I ask why you allowed it to go ahead and all the money that was spent on it ?? 

What is wrong with you ? I can tell you I am very angry about this.

5) I’ m glad he is soon going to be free of your controlling, obsessional and rigid behaviour patterns – he is no longer
facing life as your little “puppy dog” – obeying you, what time he has to go to bed, walking on egg shells around you,
putting up with your mood swings. Obsessional personality disorder or possible high level functioning people
with some autistic syndrome features - can be mini dictators –?

so.... err......what exactly is wrong with you ?

I would suggest to Nelza (with whom I get on very very well) that she may need to get an early night,
but not insist she goes to bed at a time dictated by me !! – and she would not do the same back to me. I am afraid
you simply just do not live in the real world because of your lack of any previous personal emotional relationships.

After all xx has done for you, you have treated him like **** over the last few months, and that makes me feel
really pissed off with you, and why I have sent this e-mail.

Get on with the divorce then, come on – get ON WITH IT. I’m waiting for x to receive the letter......

Once last issue – hitting someone with a chair is an assault – and the Police could have been called
by xx(if he was that type of person) and you would have been charged with causing Actual Bodily Harm,
as his fingers afterward were painful for nearly a week......but what did you care – wallowing in your own
sense of being a victim of an undeserved plight – most of which is of your own creation in the first place – but you are too
psychologically closed off from yourself in order to see it.

You have really put him through torture over the last 6 weeks, and couldn't care less about his feelings at all, -
A letter from your Mother was promised – never arrived. Instead e-mails like ----

“we will talk about it when I get back” ---- “to reconsider the marriage....you must go to bed at 10.30pm, and not be like your family,
- and that is just the beginning”. See how controlling you are ?

I ask again....what exactly is wrong with you ? 

You need some psychometric and psychological testing in order to find out.

zzz (xx Uncle)

- C.Q.S.W, & Diploma in Mental Health Social Work,
- Diploma in Psychological Counselling,
- Diploma in Cognitive Behaviour Therapy,
- Mindfulness Training,
- 6 days Acceptance and Commitment Therapy experiential
workshop training certificate .
-MBACP


As you can see from above I think I know a thing or two about what I am talking about.


----------



## motherofone

If those are your uncle's credentials then he knows his approach won't do your marriage any good. I wouldn't speak with him about your relationship anymore if you are wishing to get her back. Do start IC for yourself.


----------



## Eden1973

Wow, zz, wow. Sorry, I'm sort of speechless. This was a bad, bad, bad move. Why do you or your uncle feel that this was ok to do, either today or later? 

Sorry, I'll be frank: he called her selfish & controlling but one can say that this move was very selfish, demeaning & controlling. Your family has been given a place in your marriage that's outside of the norm. Marriage is hard enough with just two people with opinions trying to make it work. Now you have others with credentials out the waazooo & strong "opinions" freely allowed to voice whatever, whenever. This can be viewed as attack. That email was over the top & cement on the coffin. This is probably unsalvageable given your closeness to your family & you being 100% ok, passive with dispectful judgments being thrown toward your wife, your life mate, the woman you desired to mother your children. I know that I couldn't swallow that pill just given & if this is how's it's been, then it's easier to understand why she will not return. Even if some if it is true, "your uncle" overstepped a line.

Yeah, it's grow up time for ALL involved. 

Again, I ask you, why is it ok for your family members to speak "directly " to your wife like this? She didn't ask for thier input. She already told you that it's a sticking point for her & she just wanted to move on. But no, someone, not you, a family member had to stick it to her again & put her in her place. Well, there you go. Her "place" will probably remain far from all this.

Please tell your family & you to just leave her alone as she has requested. This seems beyond repair especially with so many players in this should be one on one game.

Wow, what a birthday present. Do you think she really feels loved & wanted now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## A Bit Much

ZZ, what happened with your uncle is the exact reason I don't share my marital problems with family or friends.  When you forgive and forget and all is well again, THEY DON'T. They remember the negative things you said about your spouse and hold it against them.

Your wife will not change her mind. Especially now after this message.


----------



## zeezack

I know things have got really bad. When my wife left for China, I spoke to my uncle for council. He is a social worker. Although I only uncovered that this morning he had sent such a response directly to her. I don't approve of its content and would have preferred he not send it, but I can't control his or hers behaviour.

With so much tension now. I too have my doubts.


----------



## zeezack

My wife's reply to my uncle.


Dear x (me), 

As a matter of fact, I am shocked to hear that you are shocked. If you were truly mature, you would not have forwarded my emails to to your relatives and you would have predicted their reaction of reading those emails without being given a full picture of what happened. Whatever reactions your relatives have, you are the one who should take the full responsibility. Did you ever tell your relatives how I travelled all the way to London at night because you were severely ill that night? Did you ever tell your relatives how I tiredlessly looked after you after your finger operation? Did you ever tell your relatives how I slept on the floor of a room of 8 square metres every night for more than a year? Did you tell your relatives that the cause of your finger problem was due to your refusal to leave the house after I requested you to leave several times? And there are many more cases that I do not feel necessary to mention because I know you will always come up with rhetorics that favour your stance and your relatives will be of course always on your side. 

Please understand that there are no waters to be calmed on my side. I am very calm and I am fully conscious of my decision of the divorce. By contrast, it is you who need to be calmed and be counselled. Your relatives think I have been torturing you. Alas! I have no comments to that comment as I know it is futile to argue. As I always say, of whatever one does and thinks, there are consequences. Hence, you and your relatives can be assured that if I ever did intend to torture you in any way, I would be punished sooner or later. I am very clear of what I did in the past and what I do now. Whatever consequences happen to me, I take the full responsibility. 

Please understand that there have been constant problems ever since you and I were in the boyfriend and girlfriend relationship. I stated the root cause of the problem very clearly in my previous email (Please find it below). I wanted to end the relationship a few times in the past for your benefit and for my benefit - one in 2005, one in 2007, one in 2010 and the more recent one in March/April this year. But you cried and wrote me all those promises and hence I stayed and married you. Given the condition that I lived in London in the past 2 years, I know I tried very hard to look after you and to make the marriage work. However, it is clear to me now that you are who you are and I am who I am. I am tired of the constant struggle and it is time for me to end it properly as I know that there are fundemental differences between you and me which I identified many years ago. What I did wrong was not being strong enough to stick to my initial decision. 

I would like to clarify a few things so that your relatives know exactly how I think and feel, rather than coming indirectly from you. Some of your promises are unreasonable in practice and are against my moral principles. For example, your promise and suggestion of avoiding attending your family events are obsurd. Like I said many times in the past, you only have one pair of parents and they are the one who brought you to the world and raised you. You should ultimately respect them and do not upset them. To be honest, your decision of marrying me upset your parents deeply. I can tell that. Yes, although your mother did try to organise the wedding, she was not happy at all with the marriage. I told you many times that I do not want to be deemed to be the blacksheep by your family. Hence, I know the best solution is to end this marriage. I know I have made the right decision and I truly hope you can understand too. 

Uncle z - You are my senior, hence I respect you. However, I do not feel it is right for you to give me a lecture based on an incomplete picture. To be honest, any psychological take on this kind of matter does not help. I gave up confidence on psychology many years ago and I no longer see it to be the accurate analysis or the wise solution to any human inflicted problems. Yes, nothing is black and white, but your comments reflected your black and white judgment on me as a person. I did wrote a formal email to x's mother and x about ending the relationship in March, 2010. Please find the original email below. Also, please do read my other previous correspondance below. Being roughly 25 years older than x, I do hope that you are able to view the matter more holistically. I thought about ccing x's mother, father and sister in this email, but feel that I could forward it to them later on if needed. I have experienced too many negative biases from the x surname family (and probably the z surname family as well) and I am very tired of this situation. Hence, I would be most appreciated if x could be mature enough and end the relationship with me in a civilised way. 

Kind regards, 

y


----------



## A Bit Much

zeezack said:


> I know things have got really bad. When my wife left for China, *I spoke to my uncle for council. He is a social worker.* Although I only uncovered that this morning he had sent such a response directly to her. I don't approve of its content and would have preferred he not send it, but I can't control his or hers behaviour.
> 
> With so much tension now. I too have my doubts.


While I understand your thinking on this, because your uncle is family I still maintain that involving him in your marriage problems is/was a mistake. It's done now. It's like pandora's box... once open there's no telling how it will go. The point is to keep it under lock and key in the first place. Just between you and your wife. If you have to seek outside counsel, then seek a third party who is not personally invested in your relationship... like this forum.


----------



## Eden1973

ZZ, hate this for you. I ask that since you are here seeking advice, to value the lessons learned from the been there done that crew. 

We all from time to time seek counsel from family. However, I learned when going through my divorce that's it really hard for family to be neutral. I found myself tossed from one side of the emotional spectrum to another. I found that like a Bit Much said, some don't forgive & forget. So, I sought counsel from a independent third party & it helped my emotional state & decision making processes much better for "me". I had to learn to emotionally mature on my own & learn to make decisions for myself & my life independent of various opinions from those I loved.

Now is an opportunity for a "turning point" in your life. To learn some great life lessons. To make a decision to do better in the future. Or, you can sit & think that maybe you are completely & totally without fault & continue to fall in the same traps down the road.

It's evident that your family loves you dearly, have been a shoulder & great support for you but there comes a time when we have to live & think independent from them. Be responsible totally for our own lives & decisions. Otherwise, things can become toxic & unstable especially when times like these hit. You have your own evidence/life experience to prove this.

Be encouraged as your are very young & still have an entire lifetime to have. If she wants to be set free, let her go & set her free. That's the most loving thing to do for her. If you truly love her & love her as a person & can value her, let her go! Don't continue to beat her over the head with demeaning & insulting words & emails.

Let's live & learn 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LVF

Your case sounds almost like mine. Except that I am a bit of a soft heart and don't treat my husband harshly. Why I didn't proceed with the divorce? Because he changed for the better, he is persistent and says he's life will collapse, and I am trying to see if my feelings change, but I really doubt they will change. 

1. My reasons? Fell out of love. It might have happened something similar to your wife.

2. You asked if there was someone else and she said "I don't know". There you have your answer. Most likely she is at least romantically attached to someone. Doesn't mean she is physically involved. 
(In my case there is no one else, and am very clear about that. Why wouldn't she be clear too if there is nothing to hide?)

3. Your sister sending emails? You wife not liking tattoos and breakups? All sounds nosy to me. And nosy people attract conflict.
I don't know enough to judge your sister's behaviour, but one of the reasons I detached from my husband's family is the fact that they are always tell us what we should do, what we should/should not buy,what I should cook, asking how much my clothes cost, and even messing up my travel bags to decide what I should travel with, and telling me to stop reading/working to go cut my husband's toe nails... I made an effort to get along, but I feel anxious and depressed every time I know we are travelling to visit them. Are you sure they never pressured your wife that way?

4. "My father is Asian (Indian), and she felt more associated to him with his cultural background, but even around May 2013 started to consider he has been westernized." Another issue. Do you consider yourself westerner? I have a similar situation to yours and I consider myself western. My husband, due to political reasons of his country of birth, tends to make a few silly comments about the West, which irritate me a bit and detached me from him. Your wife was detaching herself, it was her own choice, and this is a serious issue. While she could work on some traits of her personality, this question of identity is much deeper. Does she even feel at home in UK? I doubt. And she is likely to spread that to your children, which is not very positive for their identity building. Haven't you seen enough of those cases in London? Is that what you want for your future? Maybe it's not that worth to go after her. 

5. Did you ever made an effort or comments on how she shouldn't be going to visit her family in China so often? 


It is painful now, but it will eventually go away. Things happen for a reason and you are likely to find someone who will make you much happier.


----------



## LVF

"I wanted to end the relationship a few times in the past for your benefit and for my benefit - one in 2005, one in 2007, one in 2010 and the more recent one in March/April this year. But you cried and wrote me all those promises and hence I stayed and married you. Given the condition that I lived in London in the past 2 years, I know I tried very hard to look after you and to make the marriage work. However, it is clear to me now that you are who you are and I am who I am. I am tired of the constant struggle and it is time for me to end it properly as I know that there are fundemental differences between you and me which I identified many years ago. What I did wrong was not being strong enough to stick to my initial decision. "

I think it's time to let her go... 
Crying and being desperate are the reasons why I didn't leave yet. I care about his feelings, like she cared about yours before. But in the long term it is worse for both. Better said than done, I know... but deep down you and I know it is the right way. 
It is painful and traumatic, but some things need to be done... You will have you family's support, you are not alone! In 6 months, in a year, you will feel much better and happier, free to look for passion.


----------



## Wise Fairy

ZZ

I feel for both of you at this time it is a volatile relationship, you cannot control her or her feelings, they are still not being heard or acknowledged not even from your uncle. 

You wife has taken as much as she can, from you and your family, they are still attacking her. 

I am surprised at your uncle having all his degrees in Psychology doesn't he know that the you statements are something that any counselor would not do. 

This relationship was about you and her, again where is her defense from you or her family, where is the understanding the love the care I am sorry I don't feel it anywhere. 

At this time again respect her decision for her privacy she wants to heal, you need to heal why hang onto something that is not good?

Best you can do is to get in some form of independent counseling for yourself at this point, and then be open and honest to find the answers you are looking for. 

Best of luck to you.


----------



## KAM1959

She is suffering from culture clash. There is a great difference in democratic modern societies and traditional and old one's such as Chinese. If she refuses to get past it and work it out in herself then there is nothing you can do except work more toward her traditionalism, which requires you getting educated in her culture or you will have to move on with your own life. If you chose to work her way in traditionalism then she still has to meet you some where in the middle and understand she is in a far different culture now and she has to adjust.


----------



## zeezack

KAM1959 said:


> She is suffering from culture clash. There is a great difference in democratic modern societies and traditional and old one's such as Chinese. If she refuses to get past it and work it out in herself then there is nothing you can do except work more toward her traditionalism, which requires you getting educated in her culture or you will have to move on with your own life. If you chose to work her way in traditionalism then she still has to meet you some where in the middle and understand she is in a far different culture now and she has to adjust.


I agree with that. I had in fact started a 10 week course learning Chinese Mandarin. I had wanted to do so since 2008. I felt that this time round to be pro-active about things I would take it on. The course started 2 weeks ago - so I felt that I did't want to miss the window. 

I did my 2nd lesson on tuesday. I felt it very hard with the current situation, but I tried to motivate myself to learn the language, be amongst others and try and make a bigger effort to learn her language and culture. Even though the situation is really grim, I will try and stay on the course until it finishes in December.


----------



## A Bit Much

Are you learning Mandarin for her or for yourself?

I don't think you're really listening to what she's saying to you. You are dead set on steering this back to your satisfaction without really taking her position seriously.


----------



## zeezack

A Bit Much said:


> Are you learning Mandarin for her or for yourself?
> 
> I don't think you're really listening to what she's saying to you. You are dead set on steering this back to your satisfaction without really taking her position seriously.


I understand what you are saying. I had put my name down for the short course about 3 weeks ago. I have always wanted to learn an Asian language. I had considered this course in the past.

At the moment - as I am on my own - all I can do is try and keep myself pre-occupied. Although it is painful, I still feel it best to try and attend the pre-paid course - to keep myself occupied and around others.


----------



## Blonde

Eden1973 said:


> Hey Zeezack,
> 
> I read your thread from the beginning and before I got to what’s going on recently, this is what “stuck out” to me:
> 
> Sidenote: There is an article on the Marriage Builders website titled “Why Women Leave”. I believe that the number one reason was “neglect”.
> 
> I’m offering a different perspective here, but when I was reading what you wrote, I found myself asking, “does he put his family & his job before his wife.” We are reading things from your perspective but it appears that she has been building up resentment for years because maybe in her eyes “she” was not a priority for you. What I’m hearing:
> 
> -She called you “selfish”.
> 
> -You were upset that she desired to move 1 hour away from “your family” and “your job”. She went out and bought a house 1 hour away from “your family” and “your job”. She’s maybe starving for some one on one time with her husband. She was ready to start a family and be with you without the constant distractions of the job and the family but was met with a less than pleasant responds from you and your family. Could scream, “am I/us/we a priority”?
> 
> -She’s in a foreign country with you. You leave her on occasion to tend to sick family members and go to these conventions alone while she’s left to herself. Remember her comment, “I’ve been left behind/alone to cry too many time”.
> 
> -She has to deal with being confronted by your sister concerning her behavior around the family or gossip with aunty. Some could say that it’s only your place to confront your wife of things of this matter not your sister. How often does she have to deal with the opinions of “your family”? How often has she been made to take a back seat to your family? Yeah, she couldn’t take it anymore and the letter from sis was the final straw.
> 
> -Does she have to compete with your family?
> 
> -She complains about what time you go to bed at 2ish in the morning verses a 10:30 bedtime. Did she go to bed at night alone a lot while you worked or chatted with family and cried herself to sleep maybe on countless nights due to loneliness?
> 
> -How much quality alone time did you all together exploring things that you both like to do together or was there usually family involved? How did you both invest in each other and equally meeting each other’s needs?
> 
> -What are your wife’s needs?
> 
> All I say is step back and take a look at your part in the demise of this marriage. How did you contribute to this breakdown? Was your wife a priority in the way she would recognize? Just a few things to consider, could you or would you ever consider reducing the amount of time you spend with your family for the best interest of your marriage? Would that be gut wrenching thing for you to consider? Could you find some other activity that you could both enjoy together verses the conventions that you do separate from her?
> 
> So, what was your part?


^^Yep, this

AND you lived in a flat in the city and visited her on weekends.

I'd be done too, and I'm not Chinese. A "marriage" is where you leave your FOO and cleave to your *wife. *


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> Did you ever tell your relatives how I slept on the floor of a room of 8 square metres every night for more than a year?


^^how many years into your relationship??? My guess is that for years she was advocating for more appropriate family friendly housing, finally had enough and took matters into her own hands and bought herself a house.

Your whole extended family is triangulated into your marriage. Ask a therapist (non-relative) about that. Also ask @ enmeshment. You are enmeshed with your FOO and it is going to strain any romantic relationship so I suggest you work in therapy on healthy detachment from your FOO.

FOO=Family of Origin


----------



## Blonde

Maybe too little too late but you could see if your wife would be willing to do this as a last ditch effort: Marriage Help Program For Couples

There is a whole post-session on dealing with FOO issues


----------



## zeezack

I have sought a councillor to start on monday. She had bought the house without me and its only her name on the deeds and mortgage. I was not given a key straight away, and she would often take it away from me.

I am giving her space and time now. I have not seen her in about 10 weeks now.


----------



## Blonde

10 weeks= almost 3 months

and before that you only saw her on weekends

That's not "giving her space" that's abandonment and the three months has taught her that she is content and her life is peaceful absent you and the drama. Good that you didn't have kids yet-->cleaner break




zeezack said:


> I REALLY WANT TO START A LIFE WITHOUT YOU AND YOUR FAMILY...
> 
> *MY LIFE IS FAR MORE PEACEFUL WITHOUT YOU.*


Sign the divorce papers when they come, keep your counseling appt, and focus on personal growth so you can do better next time


----------



## zeezack

She asked me to come over today. I arrived at 3:30pm. When i got to the house i spoke a little about the chinese lessons. She took an interest. She said we will talk about things but not now. We watched a chinese film. Then ate dinner together, then watched another chinese film - where she started to describe what was going on. Then she put on part of another film. Asked me to pause it, then she prayed in the other room for 20 mins. Now its bed time. Still no discussion, but i've been allowed to stay over - sleeping in the other room.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

She kept the birthday card i sent but does not have it on display. This is all very strange. I thought she would talk for an hour or so about separation/divorce then ask me to leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> 10 weeks= almost 3 months
> 
> and before that you only saw her on weekends
> 
> That's not "giving her space" that's abandonment and the three months has taught her that she is content and her life is peaceful absent you and the drama.



I saw her last on 26th aug, then a week later she went to china. Was in china for 4 weeks. Then been back in England 3 weeks. Now has asked me to come over, stay the night. She seemed so admiment in her emails, but is now acting civil to me in person. Guess i will find out more tomorrow


----------



## nevergveup

Is there a chance she is testing you to see if you
are willing to change?

Have you told her how you have been wrong and will
put her first?

If she has yet to file divorce papers,you possibly have a
chance of winning her back.


----------



## zeezack

nevergveup said:


> Is there a chance she is testing you to see if you
> are willing to change?
> 
> Have you told her how you have been wrong and will
> put her first?
> 
> If she has yet to file divorce papers,you possibly have a
> chance of winning her back.


i

I told her i want to change loads of times in emails and letters. I was working so hard to get out of the rental situation. I have done things wrong. But she has been rude and cold towards my parents. Today i just observed, been assertive, helpful and present. I gave the bathroom here a clean, i didnt tell her. I saw no sign of divorce papers/letters being formed. Although i did get a glance of her email list. There is one titled letter - if it was the divorce letter in draft - or her translated mothers letter i never got - i dont know. There were a few emails to the mortgage broker though over the last week - like 10th oct. Not sure what of though - email subjects appeared quite mellow - hello and reschudle. If she is thinking of selling the house - i have no clue. Just currently laying in bed in the other room bewildered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

You have to get your family out of your personal affairs. Chinese people also love all of this family drama, but if you have your shyte together you don't allow them into your problems.

Tell your wife that she is your priority and that you have made that clear to your family. 

If they genuinely want to help you, they will invite the to of you out to eat. And at those meals they should be über positive and friendly.


----------



## warlock07

What the hell!!

Do you have a will of your own? Just read your own posts. Everything you do is a reaction to her actions and around her. You are almost acting like a slave


----------



## zeezack

I've been under a lot of stress. I understand what you are saying, but i really came down to hear her side and reconcile in some way. Hear what she has to say in person after 8 weeks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Well she invited me over. I stayed the night had 3 meals. Watched 2.5 films with her. She didnt want to talk, about anything. Just said not this week. I left the house civil with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Starstarfish

> But she has been rude and cold towards my parents


Is this why she was sleeping on the floor at one point, because she was rude to your parents?


----------



## zeezack

Starstarfish said:


> Is this why she was sleeping on the floor at one point, because she was rude to your parents?


No its because we started living together at first in a bedsit
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wise Fairy

ZZ

Well looks like she has opened a door for you, how you proceed is on you now. 

She had valid points about your family it's how she feels and has felt, you would be wise to listen and not talk because she sounds like she wants you to understand. 

I don't think she would invite you over if it was done, so I think she just wants you to get her and her culture a little. 

The counseling is positive, learning Chinese a plus. 

You gotta keep your family out of this for now if you want anything to try to work, you can't play he said she said at this point. 

It's about finding out what her needs are then once you acknowledge them, you can work on your needs. 

This is a baby step don't blow it. 

Fear makes us do strange things and she has been afraid of her voice for a long time. 

Peace


----------



## zeezack

Wise Fairy said:


> ZZ
> 
> Well looks like she has opened a door for you, how you proceed is on you now.
> 
> She had valid points about your family it's how she feels and has felt, you would be wise to listen and not talk because she sounds like she wants you to understand.
> 
> I don't think she would invite you over if it was done, so I think she just wants you to get her and her culture a little.
> 
> The counseling is positive, learning Chinese a plus.
> 
> You gotta keep your family out of this for now if you want anything to try to work, you can't play he said she said at this point.
> 
> It's about finding out what her needs are then once you acknowledge them, you can work on your needs.
> 
> This is a baby step don't blow it.
> 
> Fear makes us do strange things and she has been afraid of her voice for a long time.
> 
> Peace


She always feared she would be the black sheep of the family. But over time her cold withdrawn and rudeness to my parents took its toll - especially on my sister. My Uncle retaliated because of her ambiguous and non-communicative stance in going for a divorce or not.

I did my best to act like a gentleman when I was at the house. I took it on myself to clean the bathroom and kitchen whilst I was there. 

She did take an interest in my efforts to learn her language. When she opened the door yesterday and I tested it on her, she laughed.


----------



## zeezack

I am worried about how things would progress this year. My wife is convinced that my mother doesn't like her. My sister and my wife are already now at odds. My sister claims she hates her - after all the drama ("talking to my aunty about my mother, being critical, cold, rude towards my parents"). My wife just doesn't seem to apologise for any bad behaviour on her part - and this occurred in May/June.

Even though me and my wife got on neutrally this weekend - I know these thoughts are bubbling in her mind - as if she has lost face - doesn't know how to re-build relationships or feels already she never will.

So I got my family getting unhappy I propose ideas like just spending Christmas with my wife or miss out on family events to give my wife an emotional break. I also got my wife unhappy that such proposals are absurd as she rightfully says - my parents are my family etc... and I shouldn't do things to upset them.

So its a very delicate, difficult situation - where I am trying to reconcile with my wife, my wife acted cold/rude towards my family - and after 8 years of being in our relationship this behaviour/attitudes have exhibited in the last year at least.

Does anyone have any comments on this, similar situation? At least my family would be open to try and rebuild relationships, but my sister's feelings are not unjustified. Even in May/June - my wife said stuff like "I wish your mother never met your dad".


----------



## zeezack

Part of the issue - is my wife doesn't want to be labelled the black sheep of the family. But the behaviour/isolation she has exhibited makes her look like a black sheep. She won't acknowledge that she has self-generated this prophecy.

My mum was even willing to come up this weekend to talk to my wife - I proposed it to my wife when she invited me up - but my wife refused. I wish my wife would talk to my mother about things. My wife claims she can never amend the relationship with my sister.


----------



## nevergveup

You have to tell your family they need to be civil and kind
to your wife.Grow some balls,or your gonna loose her.

Sometimes we have to set are family straight in a open
direct talk.Try to imagine if it were you in China and 
you had no family there.

Very lonely and alone.She's your wife and you didn't
play interference for her,against your family members.

Talk and email are little things.When was the last time
you sent her flowers,or took her to a nice dinner
or bought her a nice piece of jewelrey.

Time for talk is way over.Actions say everything.


----------



## zeezack

nevergveup said:


> You have to tell your family they need to be civil and kind
> to your wife.Grow some balls,or your gonna loose her.
> 
> Sometimes we have to set are family straight in a open
> direct talk.Try to imagine if it were you in China and
> you had no family there.
> 
> Very lonely and alone.She's your wife and you didn't
> play interference for her,against your family members.
> 
> Talk and email are little things.When was the last time
> you sent her flowers,or took her to a nice dinner
> or bought her a nice piece of jewelrey.
> 
> Time for talk is way over.Actions say everything.


For the record last time I was able to take her out - when she was willing - before she excused herself due to work commitments - was June 23rd. Since then she has isolated herself either saying she is busy or is in China with her own family or she wants a separation/divorce.

My family on the whole are civil. But when ones wife acts grumpy, mood swings on being invited an anniversary meal - refuses to make conversation or appear unhappy she was invited - and instead looks bored/withdrawn during a paid for meal. It does become difficult.

When your wife decides to loose you in the crowd and arrive at your Aunty's house 20 minutes before you do on her own so she can gossip to my Aunty - that my mum doesn't like her (which is really not the case - even after spoiling her anniversary meal). Again it makes things difficult. Difficult for my sister not to defend my mother and say - "she doesn't need this now as her father has been diagnosed with vascular dementia".

As however hard I try and I can not control my wife's own wrong behaviours. When your wife has made mistakes and is wrong on a few levels - won't apologise or see no need to - even if I do acknowledge she is on her own and in this country on her own - my family don't really see that as justification for her rude/cold/withdrawn/over critical behaviour.

My mum tried to be civil and hug her good bye at my Aunty's - my wife tried to shun away.


----------



## Wise Fairy

ZZ

Families come with lots of complications no one gets along with everyone it's a fact. 

Take the focus off your family, we are all trying to help you here see that it isn't about them. 

What's important is HOW YOUR WIFE FEELS, off course she wants to be accepted that's why she refers to herself as the black sheep. I am sure in her own mind that she is embarrassed by her own behavior towards them, and it isn't easily fixable as much as you want it fixed. 

Too early to get your family involved in your situation, you still have work to do with her one on one. 

Let your family know that you are trying to work on your relationship if that's what you both want and for them to give you space. 

There is going to be some walking on egg shells for a bit, its natural. 

Think of this don't be in the past, or drag it up try to be here now in the present and the future. 

Peace


----------



## Eden1973

Some good news & progress ZZ.

Well, you have an open door & she's not in complete withdrawal so that's good. See that she's trying. She that she doesn't want any family involvement even her family as you never got letter from MIL. 

You feel caught in a hard place between your wife & your family. But the overwhelming advice here is clear; take the family out of your marriage. Honestly, I think both parties may have had some wrong behaviors but both are stubbornly waiting on the other to apologize. Too much pride. You say your family is civil but just your uncle's letter alone wasn't civil. But it's hard to be neutral sometimes when it comes to family. (sigh)

I've learned, we have complete control on how we feel & respond. We all have to learn how to stop blaming others on how we "chose" to feel about anything. You say she ruined the "free" anniversary meal with her attitude. Wow, she had a lot of power over everyone. She controls everyone & everyone's feelings & all, really? Does she really have that much control & power over all involved? You know how do deal with rude behavior, ignore it, ignore her if she choses to be rude & everyone else make the "choice" to enjoy themselves despite her. Either she gets over the attitude & enjoy or sits in misery. If it were my anniversary, I would enjoy, period.? But again, pride & ego says, "I dare you". Puts on an air of superiority especially since we paid for the nice meal you're eating. In this case, pride, ego or superiority on either's part doesn't work. The family wants her to take the high road & apologize but are they willings to just forgive her & move on so you can make amends with your wife?

Our heart's here are going out to you ZZ & you have an opportunity. You continue on the same path especially where family is concerned would just seem like insanity. But the ball once again is in your court, how are "you" going to play in this quarter?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I feel that she is trying - sure. My wife still seemed very controlling when I was there. Initiated bed time etc... 

She has made ripples in the family - from my uncle, sister(who now uses the word hate), mother (bewildered at what problems my wife has with her) and my father (who appears just angry for me).

My family and some of my friends now start the conversation with me "Do you want... are you happy with.... willing to put up with for the rest of your life". She has generated mixed feelings in me - 2 months ago I wanted to celebrate our 3rd anniversary, then she last week she seemed so admittent that splitting up/separating/divorce was the ONLY solution. I was hoping for a much smoother journey in the past 3-5 months - considering slowly about the option of starting a family. But her current mood/controlling manner has unsettled me - I fear for how the children will be brought up, if this pattern will occur again - this time with children involved. I do love her and I was really upset about the path she was choosing last month.

I don't know how things will go this November/December time. Even before all this happened in June - my mother did try and talk to my wife and hug her good bye. Hugging my wife good bye was taken as a great offence by her.


----------



## Eden1973

Yeah ZZ, things are probably very confusing right now. Especially given you got various emotions & opinions of others pulling & weighing on you. I've been there. For my own mental & emotional sanitity I had to turn ALL the voices off including my spouse, family, friends & pastors at one time so that I could figure out what ""I wanted. I asked everyone to just give me some time to figure things out. 

It's a turning point in your life. You have a opportunity to decide what you want the next 10 years and the next. It's your choice. My advice is to stop talking about it with everyone already involved except a independent counselor. Yeah, didn't you have an appt Monday?

If you are now not too sure about reconciling based on what "you" want, not how everyone else feel about it. Give yourself some time to ponder & decide & not be controlled by either party & how they "feel". Everyone needs to own thier own feelings & stop blaming the other. Forgive humaness & let go or stay in a state of anger, ill feelings & duress. Negative emotions eventually take thier
toll not just emotionally but physically as well.

Ok, sidenote on bedtime issue. I'm a person that "need" my sleep. I'm a better person for myself & everyone when I get at least 7 hours a night. However, my new hubby can sleep 3 to 4 hours & do fine. I work a 8-5, he's self employed & dictates his own schedule. So, it was a struggle in the beginning. I wanted a 10 ish bedtime, he midnight, lol. At first, my feelings were hurt & it was lonely to go to bed alone in a new environment. He tries to compromise but ends up in bed tossing & turning so I end up not sleeping until midnight anyway, lol. Or I fall asleep fine & he's in bed watching tv or working on something. I've learned to sleep through it. So, now I go ahead & get in bed, fall asleep & not nag him about it. I learned we just have different sleep patterns & I could make a 
mountain out of a mole hill or just stay in peace. I like peace over "my" way. Particularly on this. Other things I just may not be as compromising , just depends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

So a week has passed. I proposed the idea of coming up this weekend with a pumpkin (we would make pumpkin pie - this time of the year). 

She replied "no, please stay at your place".

I am confused about why we are still in a stalemate situation. I went up last week for answers, instead stayed the night, had 2 meals and watch a few films with her. I love my wife, but its killing me inside not to be able to spend time with her - or find out what is wrong. In one instance she seemed so amendment about divorce (16th Oct). Spent the weekend together (19th/20th) and now it looks like another weekend where we will spend time alone from each other.


----------



## A Bit Much

I don't think it's healthy for you to allow her mood to dictate what will happen. You are her beck and call guy and it's very unattractive. Begging for attention like a lost puppy isn't going to win you any points with her, I think she enjoys playing with you. 

Back off. Go dark on her. Don't reach out to her, and when she reaches out to you, don't do the puppy dog routine. You're going to have to go against that overwhelming feeling you have of longing for her and do the opposite of what you're doing now. If you continue this route you're on, you'll also continue hurting yourself.


----------



## zeezack

I understand what you are saying. I went dark on her all week - up until today when I proposed if we would meet again this weekend. I am hurt by all of this, and I am trying to not to let this rejection get to me.


----------



## A Bit Much

A week isn't long enough. You need to not be the initiator of ANY contact with her, no matter how much it hurts. You're doing it to yourself.


----------



## zeezack

I'm finding things really difficult. I spent such an amount of time working trying to earn the money to build the foundations of supporting our family. Then my wife disconnects. I love her and I want to start a family with her, but now she has me in limbo where we are on/off relationship.

I really wanted to cut my working hours back, spend more time with her and start a family this year. I was hoping the animosity between her feelings for my family would subside.


----------



## A Bit Much

No matter what she is doing, you should be fine. If you allow her to run your life choices, you'll only gain more of the same of what she's dishing out.

You said yourself how controlling she was when you were at her place. Now you're letting her control you from a distance. Why? Are you not capable of making your own decisions? Do you need her to tell you what to do and when to do it? Why do you prefer her steering the ship here? Especially now, after this separation? Especially now after all that she has said to you? Especially now after she declared she wanted a divorce?


----------



## zeezack

I understand what you mean. I went over to the house for the first time in 8 weeks (4 of which where she was in China). I thought we were making some progress, however slow, to be in each other's company. I did feel she would open up and want to talk about things, but she chose not to. I wasn't expecting much this weekend, but I did feel if we had met it would be again a symbol of potential progress.

I do not understand though what is going on with her. If she is interested in reconciliation, separation or divorce. She seems unsure, but will not discuss anything with me. I have tried to seldom contact her and will again need to go dark on her. 

She is controlling, and no of course I don't want to be a controlled at any distance. I am capable of making decisions, but on this occasion I am left out of the loop. 

If it were my decision I would not want a divorce, I would want to discuss about things and try and resolve or dissolve them one by one. I would try and ensure we enjoy our lives together. But she has obviously some very deep issues/concerns/strong resilience to stick to her guns.


----------



## Eden1973

Hey ZZ, I'm sorry & scratching my head. Ok, you all spent a pretty neutral weekend together which was fairly neutral, confusing & scary a bit. Then....who decided it was best to not speak for a week? Did she ask you not to contact her during the week? How does either party "going dark" & not communicating with each other for an entire week help or lead toward a reconciliation? I understand "control" being an issue but I think there may be a control and power struggle issues happening on both ends. 

You admitted that neglect could be a major factor in the demise of relationship so given that how is going silent for a week not the same ole road. If that's what happened. So from different perspective, if I didn't hear from you for the entire week & I already don't think I'm a priority in your life & them u reached out finally & ask about making pie, I would probably decline to. 

Idk, honestly I thought you all would be doing a lot if talking this week given you all had spent time together. 

You really sound like you want your marriage but I'm sorry husband & wife not communing on any level for a week seems counterproductive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Eden1973 said:


> Hey ZZ, I'm sorry & scratching my head. Ok, you all spent a pretty neutral weekend together which was fairly neutral, confusing & scary a bit. Then....who decided it was best to not speak for a week? Did she ask you not to contact her during the week? How does either party "going dark" & not communicating with each other for an entire week help or lead toward a reconciliation? I understand "control" being an issue but I think there may be a control and power struggle issues happening on both ends.
> 
> You admitted that neglect could be a major factor in the demise of relationship so given that how is going silent for a week not the same ole road. If that's what happened. So from different perspective, if I didn't hear from you for the entire week & I already don't think I'm a priority in your life & them u reached out finally & ask about making pie, I would probably decline to.
> 
> Idk, honestly I thought you all would be doing a lot if talking this week given you all had spent time together.
> 
> You really sound like you want your marriage but I'm sorry husband & wife not communing on any level for a week seems counterproductive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


- she didn't request not to contact her
- I don't feel going dark is productive either.

I felt I would give her some space/peace of mind - its not because I wanted to not communicate, just communication with her - was perhaps once frequent and became an annoyance to her (I would call her everyday at 8p.m). I would be the one to always communicate first. I was hoping she would take the initiative to communicate first this week, but alas it was me on Thursday - gently requesting if I should prepare ingredients for a pie.


----------



## zeezack

I feel an overwhelming sense of anxiety. She said last week on Saturday "there are some things we will talk about, but I don't want to talk about it now". I didn't see any sign that she had contacted a solicitor, I stayed the night, had 2 meals and watched some films with her. But this weekend she didn't want me to come up.


----------



## Eden1973

Sorry about the anxiety have u talked to her & asked her what's going on?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

No I have not pushed her on this. I have tried to suggest going over there next weekend and watch some films she may be interested in. Buddism films. She replied neutrally "Please do NOT search for any Buddhism films by yourself as you do not know much about Buddhism. There are many cult Buddhism films online and they can be very detrimental."


----------



## LadyAsia

Hey zeezack, I got interested in your thread because my family is Chinese. After reading through it all, I've got to be blunt with you. I think you made a huge mistake getting your family involved in your marital problems. A marriage is between 2 people, not 50. The major problem is that they only hear your version of events and they are committed to you (they are YOUR family, not hers). They would take your side no matter what. Plus, she has no family around and, from what you've written, it seems like they don't get involved in your life too much. So she must feel like she is standing all alone against you and your entire family. How intimidating and isolating do you think that must feel?

No wonder she doesn't want to apologize for things, in her mind it seems like she hasn't done anything wrong, just standing her ground.

I think you need to realize your mistakes before you can communicate with her. You need to hear her out and find out what she wants. Then you have to commit to it and give your family time to readjust.


----------



## zeezack

LadyAsia said:


> Hey zeezack, I got interested in your thread because my family is Chinese. After reading through it all, I've got to be blunt with you. I think you made a huge mistake getting your family involved in your marital problems. A marriage is between 2 people, not 50. The major problem is that they only hear your version of events and they are committed to you (they are YOUR family, not hers). They would take your side no matter what. Plus, she has no family around and, from what you've written, it seems like they don't get involved in your life too much. So she must feel like she is standing all alone against you and your entire family. How intimidating and isolating do you think that must feel?
> 
> No wonder she doesn't want to apologize for things, in her mind it seems like she hasn't done anything wrong, just standing her ground.
> 
> I think you need to realize your mistakes before you can communicate with her. You need to hear her out and find out what she wants. Then you have to commit to it and give your family time to readjust.


It really stems from her behaviour towards my family. She included the family - in particular by gossiping to my Aunty that my mother doesn't like her. My sister involved herself - just by backing up my mum. My uncle involved himself at my defence when my wife demanded a divorce after I checked up to see if she had arrived to work ok.

In her own way she has become the black sheep of the family by being rude to my parents/cold/withdrawn. Defensive against my sister's request for her not to talk about my mother.

Both my Uncle and my sister contacted her without asking me. I've said on both occasions that although some of the content could be expressed, its tone and choice of medium was wrong.


----------



## Coffee Amore

zeezack said:


> It really stems from her behaviour towards my family. She included the family - in particular by gossiping to my Aunty that my mother doesn't like her. My sister involved herself - just by backing up my mum. My uncle involved himself at my defence when my wife demanded a divorce after I checked up to see if she had arrived to work ok.
> 
> In her own way she has become the black sheep of the family by being rude to my parents/cold/withdrawn. Defensive against my sister's request for her not to talk about my mother.
> 
> Both my Uncle and my sister contacted her without asking me. I've said on both occasions that although some of the content could be expressed, its tone and choice of medium was wrong.


I see a consistent pattern of advice here. I'm not sure if you are receptive to it though. Leave your family out of your relationship with your wife. Everyone has busy body relatives. It's not like you have a monopoly on it. But you have to keep this between you and your wife. Don't talk about marital problems with relatives. Talk to a pastor (vicar?), counselor, therapist, even people on an anonymous message board like this. Don't have relatives call her up. Why on earth would your uncle or sister talk to your wife about the marriage? If I were your wife, I would feel very defensive and I think to a certain extent she does. Her reactions seem to come from such a place. Honestly, you need to cut them all out from solving the issues you two have and keep this just between you and your spouse. A marriage is between the two of you. It's not a marriage by committee.


----------



## zeezack

I agree. I can't stop people clicking send on an email though. My sister's email was about her being cold/rude towards my parents. My Uncle's - yes - well I didn't see him sending that.


----------



## Eden1973

So ZZ what's your plan to get this marriage on track?

What's the plan in resolving the current living situation?

What's the plan in getting some open communication with your wife about the future of marriage?

What compromises are u truly willing to make?

Question, you u usually make suggestions on what yhe two of you should do when u spend time together or do you ever ask her what she would like to do?

Maybe if u have time, take a look at the marriagebuilders website & look over some of thier suggested concepts.

You can control you & the ball is in your court.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Well I am trying to suggest potential places or things she will like to do.

We both now have two properties, so I am not renting anymore. I have said I would contribute towards her mortgage and help build it up as a our family home. If we need to save for a loft extension or not. In my perspective we are in a strong situation now having 2 properties. Of course I did want us to get a joint mortgage but that is an old tale.

At the moment - I am just emailing her/texting her every other day to keep communication flowing. I know she reads my emails, I know she kept my birthday card I had sent 2 weeks ago.

My compromises would be to adjust my working hours/days to spend more time with her during the week. At the moment I don't have a house key to the her home in Hertfordshire - and although I am willing to go up there more often - she may not welcome me during the week. Having trouble as you can tell be invited up at the weekends. I've left her a set of keys to the flat in London, even though she didn't want to accept them.

I sent her a list of Buddism films we could watch this weekend - if she would have me. She neutrally said not to search for Buddism films on my own, as I don't know much about it, and some films are cult references which are detrimental.

So even if she is not calling me, showing me much signs of affection. I am trying to still keep her in the loop with current events, propose light things we could do like watch films she likes.

Its very difficult when your wife is almost completely shut down, doesn't want to talk to you, doesn't want to see you, doesn't want to talk about her feelings, the situation. Nor is she making active moves to end the marriage, even though she keeps threatening. If I do stand my ground and try and talk about it - like I did Aug 26th - she will likely get angry and resort to hitting me with a chair if I don't leave there and then. So its a real soft touch at the moment.

All I can do is keep trying to improve myself, my situation and keep myself emotionally strong in front of her.


----------



## LadyAsia

Well it's good that you're taking things slow. I guess what you really need is to talk to her and find out what she actually wants. BUT...you obviously can't push this because you'll push her away. I guess just keep doing what you're doing.

I was also going to say...give it some time before you "reintroduce" her to your family. It's probably too much pressure on both of you to fix your personal issues and also examine how she's acting in front of them. Maybe when things between you are back on track, then slowly start rebuilding those relationships as well.

Anyway, best of luck man, I hope things work out for you!


----------



## zeezack

Mgjaria said:


> It sounds like she can't stand you and wants to be done.


Well I get a lot of mixed messages from her. I know I was working really hard this year and trying to resolve living expenses from the rented accommodation. As I mentioned earlier back in May/June she did try and get a joint mortgage with me on this London flat. Due to her probation period she was unable to do so.

Then conflicts became open in the family after she told my aunty - that my mum doesn't like her. She never talked to my mum about this properly and my mum did try and talk to my wife. My mum tried to hug her goodbye but it was obvious that my wife didn't want to do that.

That's really when my sister wrote her an email and said - please do not be rude to my parents.

I just don't really know what happened/whats wrong with my wife etc... its almost like she has had an emotional breakdown. She seemed so adamant about wanting a divorce - but has not taken/does not take no action. She is not reaching out to contact me or see me. But she is not talking about her feelings or thoughts with me. She is not expressing herself and the problems she is having - nor is she trying to reconcile the issues she has with my family. Its like she is using my family against me - by saying its not want my parents ever wanted (to get married) etc... "I don't want to be the black sheep". But when she openly gossips about my mother, looks glum in the company of my family, obviously shows resistance to hugging my mum - she is wearing that costume herself.

I love her very much and we have both come very far to get to this point. It is not easy at all sponsoring a wife from another country and trying to get 2 mortgages. I really do just want to be a better provider to us as a family unit.


----------



## Starstarfish

> It really stems from her behaviour towards my family. She included the family - in particular by gossiping to my Aunty that my mother doesn't like her.


Was that really gossip, I mean it basically seems to be true. Maybe she was hoping for advice or feedback on how to change the situation. And what was the reaction? People pile driving on her and in the end you her husband don't see her side. 

In the end your only conclusion is "I can't stop people from doing what they want to do." Which is a really non-committal answer. It isn't seeing the behavior as wrong. Do you think it was really your sister's place to scold your wife with a scathing email, and if so - why? Have you ever sent your sister's husband a nasty email about something he did wrong? 

I think until you own that and realize that it's wrong, and that yes you should be able to say something and protect your wife rather than shrugging your shoulders, you'll continue to have the same problems. She wants to feel valued, loved, and protected. And I'd say the history of sleeping on the floor combined with your family ganging up on her without your support likely doesn't make her feel that way. 

How are you going to prove things going forward would be different?


----------



## zeezack

Starstarfish said:


> Was that really gossip, I mean it basically seems to be true. Maybe she was hoping for advice or feedback on how to change the situation. And what was the reaction? People pile driving on her and in the end you her husband don't see her side.


I appreciate she was looking for feedback etc... but I wouldn't say that her concerns were well founded - nor accurate. Even now my mum would be willing and wanting to talk to my wife about her problems. But I have request that my mum does not go up there - (given I am only invited at the moment).

My sister was really defending my mum against her being cold/rude and withdrawn. I see my wife's side - but I couldn't really defend her against these things - it was observed behaviour 



Starstarfish said:


> In the end your only conclusion is "I can't stop people from doing what they want to do." Which is a really non-committal answer. It isn't seeing the behavior as wrong. Do you think it was really your sister's place to scold your wife with a scathing email, and if so - why? Have you ever sent your sister's husband a nasty email about something he did wrong?


I don't think its my sister's place to scold my wife. My sister does not have a husband. But no I wouldn't email them. But then I've never had any of them act cold/rude/withdrawn to my parents.




Starstarfish said:


> I think until you own that and realize that it's wrong, and that yes you should be able to say something and protect your wife rather than shrugging your shoulders, you'll continue to have the same problems. She wants to feel valued, loved, and protected. And I'd say the history of sleeping on the floor combined with your family ganging up on her without your support likely doesn't make her feel that way.
> 
> How are you going to prove things going forward would be different?


I think it is wrong to bombard my wife with criticism and I am trying to reach out to her. She wants to feel valued and loved and honoured by my family - but talking to my relatives about my mum, not talking to my mum directly, being critical in front of my sister, rude/cold/critical towards my parents. Its a hard rock to climb.

She slept on the floor - because we lived in a bedsit - save money for a joint mortgage. When I obtained the studio - I slept on the floor and gave her the bed. She then left once she bought a house without me as a sole applicant.


----------



## zeezack

Things are different now - in that we have 2 properties. I can start to decouple myself away from work commitments and be there for her more - but alas I am now not allowed to see her - unless she wants. If I do go up there - with no house key - no invite - she will likely turn me away and request I go back to London.


----------



## Starstarfish

Yeah, I've kind of officially run out of advice. 



> My sister was really defending my mum against her being cold/rude and withdrawn. I see my wife's side - but I couldn't really defend her against these things - it was observed behaviour


Yes, you could - by telling your sister that while you appreciate her concerns, her manner of approaching the problem was inappropriate. Because that conversation never took place - other relatives (like your Uncle) have thereafter assumed that you are accepting of this type of "correction" towards your wife. Saying nothing is acceptance of the situation. And until you have that conversation, I'm guessing it will keep happening. 

And if your wife has no redeeming qualities - she's rude, and cold, and sullen and unsociable why do you want her around? And if she's not that way around other people, maybe, just possibly there's something going on with the family.


----------



## zeezack

I told my sister her action was inappropriate.

My uncle only took action after 2 months of my wife threatening she wants a divorce. He is looking to separate from his wife soon too.

I believe my wife does have redeeming qualities and I am trying very hard to encourage being with her at least in a neutral presence. Last time I was at the house I took it on myself to help around the cleaning of the house.


----------



## A Bit Much

Your family should mind their own business, and you shouldn't involve them in yours. Period. 

I'm starting to see why your wife bought her own place away from you.


----------



## zeezack

She bought the house with the intention of starting a family. She chose the location due to the feng shui and schools there. I don't believe she bought it to be away from me. Given that we were together for at least a year afterwards.

My family should mind their own business. I did feel the need to discuss the impending divorce with my immediate family - as it is affecting me and will affect the dynamics of my family.


----------



## A Bit Much

zeezack said:


> She bought the house with the intention of starting a family. She chose the location due to the feng shui and schools there. I don't believe she bought it to be away from me. Given that we were together for at least a year afterwards.
> 
> My family should mind their own business. I did feel the need to discuss the impending divorce with my immediate family - as it is affecting me and will affect the dynamics of my family.


You were together, but not in the same house for that year. Correct? You can believe what you want, she's showing you by her actions toward you how she feels.

A woman wanting to start a family acts like it. She's WITH you. You don't maintain separate addresses. And I think you're wrong about discussing your 'impending' divorce with your family. It affects you (as a couple) and only you (as a couple). Not everyone else.


----------



## zeezack

Yes she bought a house without me. I am not on the mortgage and not on the deeds. But she had the best intentions of wanting to start a family. I didn't want to maintain separate addresses and only did so to encourage the flow of work that took place and brought in a lot of savings. My wife also didn't object whole heartely to a second property - as in she chose it with me and nearly got a joint mortgage with me on it.

I don't feel I am wrong to tell my parents that I am very upset my wife is set on leaving me. Also my wife's reasons for wanting to leave border on how she feels about my family so its very much tied together in her eyes. I have tried to console my wife that it is just about us and shouldn't be based on my family. But she feels that she can not separate me from my family. She has convinced herself of that.


----------



## A Bit Much

'Nearly' getting a joint mortgage ISN'T getting a joint mortgage.

Telling your parents your wife is set on leaving you is your choice, and the consequences of that choice is playing out in your situation right now. You confirmed her feelings about you and your family by involving them in your problems so deeply. It's unfortunate that even now you cannot see that. No wife wants to come second to her in-laws. No wife wants a husband that will run to the in-laws when problems in the marriage come up. No wife wants a husband that will choose his family over her. Maybe you don't agree with this, but I would argue that you don't know women very well if you don't take this to heart. If your family has no respect for her and her role in your life, she will not be a part of it. She's showing you by not being with you right now. She would rather divorce you than continue living the way she has been with you and your family.

I think your refusal to see her point of view will continue to keep you distanced from her. She doesn't trust you.


----------



## zeezack

She wasn't able to get the joint mortgage - because of her probation period.

Next time my wife is set on divorce, won't talk with me weeks about anything and leaves me in despair I shall not tell my support group? Even though they will know something bad is wrong with me.

I have always tried to encourage her to participate/feel like part of the family. To the point where it upset her and I suggested we look to celebrate other key events with just the two of us. That upset her further as she again feels that is not correct. So I am dammed if we see my family and I am dammed if we don't in her eyes.


----------



## A Bit Much

Nothing about your situation has changed in the 6 weeks you've been posting here. You haven't really spoken to her. You are still living apart. 

You say you can't please her no matter what you do where your family is concerned... it would seem this is also true of your marriage.

So now what?


----------



## COGypsy

zeezack said:


> So I am dammed if we see my family and I am dammed if we don't in her eyes.


And this is the fundamental problem. Whether it's mortgages, family, bedtimes or Buddhism---you're damned if you do and damned if you don't in her eyes.


----------



## zeezack

A Bit Much said:


> Nothing about your situation has changed in the 6 weeks you've been posting here. You haven't really spoken to her. You are still living apart.
> 
> You say you can't please her no matter what you do where your family is concerned... it would seem this is also true of your marriage.
> 
> So now what?


Well my situation has changed a little. She has started to open up a bit. Actually going over to the house and being with her is a big improvement from 10 weeks back. I am hoping that the opportunity will appear again soon. At least for us to be back in each others presence, if she talks or not.

I went over there 2 weeks ago really thinking she wanted to sign divorce papers/separation/details of the solicitor etc...

but instead stayed over, had 2 meals, watched a few films.

I am trying to remain calm, find work, do work and still pay and manage the bills and also prepare for the possibility of us reconciling and maybe supporting us both a bit better by contributing towards her mortgage if at least partially in the future.


----------



## A Bit Much

2 weeks ago was 2 weeks ago. Since then you've been rejected. She hasn't contacted you.

Maybe, just maybe that visit confirmed her feelings about you, and not in a positive way. You didn't even sleep in the same room.


----------



## zeezack

COGypsy said:


> And this is the fundamental problem. Whether it's mortgages, family, bedtimes or Buddhism---you're damned if you do and damned if you don't in her eyes.


Well this is it. She either pushes forward for a separation or joins me in the effort to reconcile and share what I have. Allow me to share what she has (have a key to the house).

Talk with my mum - (my mum who is still willing to discuss in private if need be with my wife to reconcile with any differences she may have caused).

I am just a young man, stuck in limbo, living in a central london flat, looking for lucrative work to hopefully support my future family (which I planned on having with my current wife). I am trying to look after myself, whilst at the same not put pressure onto my wife to talk. Its not necessarily fair that I am given silent treatments etc... but I do care deeply for my wife and am I am trying to reconcile with her - if she does opt for divorce/separation or continue the marriage.


----------



## zeezack

A Bit Much said:


> 2 weeks ago was 2 weeks ago. Since then you've been rejected. She hasn't contacted you.
> 
> Maybe, just maybe that visit confirmed her feelings about you, and not in a positive way. You didn't even sleep in the same room.


Yeah you could be right. Even when we were together as a couple - she would opt to sleep in a separate room - as she deemed she gets better quality sleep. Hence also a reason one of us slept in a bed/or on the floor.

Yes all I do is get signs of rejection, but I also have not been given contact details for a solicitor nor has she sent me the divorce letter yet. She does seldom reply to my emails and when she does talks to me like a stranger.

So yes, things are not good. I am worried/concerned. I am sharing this all with you because the situation is not good.


----------



## Eden1973

ZZ , I know this is hard but we've all said that it looked grim from the beginning based on what was shared & what see shared. Maybe she was testing the water 2 weeks ago & given no return invite, she's could be done. 

However, you can chose not to sit in limbo or delay the inevitable by just asking.

Email
Subject: Question?

Body: Is our marriage over for you? Do you plan to proceed with a divorce?


Then u will know & move on with things for you. I know the limbo can create anxiety & be very stressful. She if she answers....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Eden1973 said:


> ZZ , I know this is hard but we've all said that it looked grim from the beginning based on what was shared & what see shared. Maybe she was testing the water 2 weeks ago & given no return invite, she's could be done.
> 
> However, you can chose not to sit in limbo or delay the inevitable by just asking.
> 
> Email
> Subject: Question?
> 
> Body: Is our marriage over for you? Do you plan to proceed with a divorce?
> 
> 
> Then u will know & move on with things for you. I know the limbo can create anxiety & be very stressful. She if she answers....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I did email her 2 1/2 weeks ago saying that if she wants to move forward with a separation she can. She knows she can.

She told me in emails dating back 14th/16th October - she will divorce, its the only solution, I will receive a letter shortly. 

No letter yet

The last point of contact I had with her face to face was on 19th/20th. She did not want to discuss anything at that time and hasn't since.

If I email her that - she could reply back yes, and then 2 weeks later I still have no movement in any direction. I am going to fight through the anxiety at the moment and wait for her. She said "there are some things we will talk about". So just wait and see what that is.


----------



## Eden1973

If her answer is yes, then why wait on her to move on with your life? I know, you have hope, right?

Nothing wrong with hope but avoidance is not good. You are not helpless & young & have a lifetime ahead of you. If it's over, it's over. You two live in different places, rarely see each other, barely speaking to each other. But u want to wait it out until she decides? I absolutely hate to ask this question but are you sure there is not anyone else in the picture? She didn't answer the question last you asked but you asked. So maybe your gut was telling you something? Typically, a woman who wants her husband & wants babies don't act like this but quite opposite .

Did you ever go to counseling?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Eden1973 said:


> If her answer is yes, then why wait on her to move on with your life? I know, you have hope, right?
> 
> Nothing wrong with hope but avoidance is not good. You are not helpless & young & have a lifetime ahead of you. If it's over, it's over. You two live in different places, rarely see each other, barely speaking to each other. But u want to wait it out until she decides? I absolutely hate to ask this question but are you sure there is not anyone else in the picture? She didn't answer the question last you asked but you asked. So maybe your gut was telling you something? Typically, a woman who wants her husband & wants babies don't act like this but quite opposite .
> 
> Did you ever go to counseling?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I am not trying to avoid the issue. I do want to meet up and discuss things properly - unfortunately it appears on her terms - otherwise she will withdraw, express anger etc..

Well I understand what you are saying. I have not got an answer to any of the above statements. I saw no evidence myself - and I even was able to glance over her emails whilst I was at the house (I would normally not do that).

I didn't want to live in 2 different places. I do want to see more of her and I do want to speak with her more often. For now - she seems completely shut down and I can not initiate any of the changes I wish to make on that front.


----------



## zeezack

Yes I did go to counseling.


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> I am just a young man, stuck in limbo, living in a central london flat, looking for lucrative work to hopefully support my future family (which I planned on having with my current wife).


I thought you had lucrative work

The more I read, zz, the more I think she may have just been using you for sponsorship. 


You don't have decent income. 
You chronically spend time apart from her and have for months if not years. 
Your enmeshment with your family is .... *very* unhealthy (didn't you say above that you spent your anniversary with your family just because they offered you a free dinner? and that turned ugly as your wife became the whipping toy for your family IIRC)

Keep on with the counseling. You can mature so that you don't repeat this next time around.


----------



## Starstarfish

> You don't have decent income.


That's kind of my lingering question. Why did you decide to get married when you did, knowing that because of finances it would lead to the situation you had when you first got together. I'm thinking it got the whole relationship off to a wrong start. 

Maybe more background is needed here - where/how do you meet your wife?


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> I thought you had lucrative work
> 
> The more I read, zz, the more I think she may have just been using you for sponsorship.
> 
> 
> You don't have decent income.
> You chronically spend time apart from her and have for months if not years.
> Your enmeshment with your family is .... *very* unhealthy (didn't you say above that you spent your anniversary with your family just because they offered you a free dinner? and that turned ugly as your wife became the whipping toy for your family IIRC)
> 
> Keep on with the counseling. You can mature so that you don't repeat this next time around.


- We have had an 8 year relationship - so I don't really believe this is the long con.

- I am a contractor - so the work comes and goes, it often comes in. So I do have a decent income
- We have spent time apart - ever since she bought the house without me.
- We were invited to my parents anniversary - we were given the option of going or not. I did present this option to her. We went to the meal and she became withdrawn. My family didn't use her as a whipping toy - they just didn't understand her withdrawn and cold behaviour. They didn't say anything to her upfront. But I did in private get negative feedback and my explanations were considered excuses.

I am seeking counselling to help with anxiety and panic attacks. I do hope I can mature to encourage my wife or future wife to do things more jointly.


----------



## zeezack

Starstarfish said:


> That's kind of my lingering question. Why did you decide to get married when you did, knowing that because of finances it would lead to the situation you had when you first got together. I'm thinking it got the whole relationship off to a wrong start.
> 
> Maybe more background is needed here - where/how do you meet your wife?


Back in 2007-2008 around the time of the recession I had come out of uni. I was in unstable income from 2007-2010 until I became a contractor. I am 3 years younger than her and I was trying to get a foothold onto my career and savings at the time.

We met as house mates, back in 2004. Dating since 2007 where she left back to China. We continued the relationship long distance and decided to marry in the fall of 2010.

But yes it has taken me 2-3 years of consistent contracting to save and earn the cash to acquire a mortgage. Unfortunately on my own. Just as I obtained the goal of getting out of the rental ladder and getting my career on track - my wife considers opting out.

We now have 2 properties and I will be wanting/willing to build on this and spend more time with my wife. This London flat was really to be used as a base/office.


----------



## zeezack

I did propose again if we could meet at her house - like we did 2 weeks ago. Her reply "Please note that you and I have been seperated for over half a year. Please spend the weekend at your own place."

- I wouldn't say this has been over a half a year. If anything its been 3 months (1 of which she was in china with family).


----------



## Eden1973

Your reply? Could have been what I suggested, is our marriage over? But I can understand your confusion but one weekend in 3 months verses all other communication during this time spells that it's over.

Sorry, don't ask about spending time ask if the marriage is over for her? Don't wait, just ask.


----------



## SaltInWound

Has she always been so cold and business-like in her communication with you?


----------



## zeezack

SaltInWound said:


> Has she always been so cold and business-like in her communication with you?


When she is angry yes. But no not always. She was still calling me darling up to 1st July - and still eating meals with me at a restaurant into late July. Then in mid-August she told me she didn't feel things were working out. Then spent September in China.


----------



## Eden1973

Hey ZZ, how are you fairing? Any updates? It's been a couple of weeks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I have no updates. I spoke to her last 1st November. She just wanted to continue the separation. She spoke for about 16 minutes, how she felt she is the black sheep of the family and how at least 2-3 members don't like her. How she feels she has led a fairly separated existence for the last few months.

I have tried to establish/identify some ground rules to the separation like level of communication to visits. I've had no reply.


----------



## SaltInWound

You have an avoider on your hands. Separation to her is translated "I will pretend I am divorced, and you will live on hope that we will get back together, but in the meanwhile I will ignore you. When you tire, you will file divorce."


----------



## Catherine602

Zee do you have family and friends that you can talk to? Are you in IC to gain some insight on this sit. and how to handle it? 

In the meantime, consider giving her a set period of time to recommit and if she does not then consider your marriage over.


----------



## zeezack

I do have family and friends I can talk to. I get mixed responses from being patient to consider its over. I have a weekly schedule with a councilor as I just don't know how I will feel - week to week.

I feel I could receive a divorce letter/legal separation details from a solicitor any day. But this letter never comes. I am at a loss of things really - I try and keep afloat by looking for work, doing work, playing games, going to the gym and watching films to keep me occupied. I get hit with emotional waves of abandonment, loneliness, grievance for the relationship and for the dreams of having children with her and fulfilling out other life goals.

Its been an emotional toil on top of my grand father's troubles. In July he was diagnosed with vascular dementia - since then he had an amputation of his right leg and memory issues - he is now in a home. My wife has avoided the entire event and has provided little to no emotional support generally since mid-July.

Its almost like she has no sense of empathy. When I spoke to her last on 1st November she did not sound like a woman who was giving up married life and a chance to have children. Its almost a complete 180 given she really wanted to have children a year ago. I will be patient with her; and I've told her in one of my recent emails I will not use the separation to date other people.

Its been hard on the family all round - as this has been going on a while now - its going to feel like we have lost 2 family members this Christmas.


----------



## Eden1973

Thanks for the update & sorry you are in limbo & dealing with your grandfather's illness. You seem to be keeping yourself occupied & you can't really avoid the emotional rollercoaster. So, like Catherine suggested decide how long you will just wait without feedback. Honestly, giving she refuses to communicate this is borderline abandonment. So you may just have to decide for yourself. 

Keep being strong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I was at the cinema today in the early afternoon. I then got a missed call from my wife at 14:44. I sent her a text message back saying I was at the cinema and that I was sorry I missed her call and asked if she were ok.

she replied "Well you are obviously enjoying yourself. So I;d be most appreciated of you could stop blaming me and contaminate my reputation by telling people how much you were tortured. Many thanks."

I tried calling her back and she wouldn't take the call. I explained that I am upset and just spending some time with a friend at the moment. That I will call back. I texted her if she would like me to come up and be with her.

I had sent her an email this morning. 

"Honey,
I really wish we could talk about things in person or at least on the phone. I would call, but I fear you wouldn't pick up or the conversation would not last long and become counter productive etc..

As for my family, this whole black sheep thing is not as prolific or as real as you think. As I said before only a fraction of my family are at fault. I'm not going to go into it all via email. But for the record - my parents were/are/will be again happy to have you as their daughter in law. I want to help rebuild bridges on this front, let you talk with them etc... I want to make things more comfortable for you - restore the warm feelings. 

As for my sister - I do not care what each of you think about the other this current day, if you forgive each other one day or not. You are my wife, the one I have chosen to raise a family with - and she will have to accept that in her own way.

I really do want to be with you. I really do want to have a proper family life. I was building towards that. Given my age, the money accumulated in the bank, the amount of stuff at Witley Court, the intent of securing future work and your permission that is why I got the London flat. But I've got it now and secured it without loosing the Hitchin nest. I would like to extend the nest so we could have more than 1 child though.

You were brewing in anger for such a long time, I knew you would explode like this. I wish you had confronted my parents up front - on times they had upset you. I wish you were upfront with me in July. I gave you space and time at the weekends as per your request so you could get a foothold in your new job. I was too foolish to think otherwise. As for me - I want to come to compromises to restore creating a family home, where we eat breakfast, shop at China town, have children, raise children and do all the activities we used to do and more.

I'm not sure if you attended the jewelry event yesterday. I don't suppose you did. I hope you are keeping well though, busy and keeping warm.

love
me
x"


She opened it up around 16:45. Then wrote me back saying this

"I don't think you understand the situation and I don't think you've ever tried to understand my opion. It is not your sister I am afraid of as she has nothing to do with me - thank goodness for that. It is your mother that I am afraid of because she is such a controling and arrogant woman. She wants to be in charge in any occasions and in any places. She thinks all she does and say is right. I am in immense fear that she wants to interfere with the children of yours and whoever you marry to. Just by observing your sister brings a enormous fear to me of the kind of offspring your mother brought up. 

It is completely futile for you to seek mediation from outside. Well, you never really understand me. I guess that's why you constantly search for other people's experience in divorce instead of look from within. It is the difference between the fundemental value system that causes the marriage breakdown. I make it very clear here that I canNOT imagine myself of bringing up any children either my own or as a teacher/carer in the way that your mother does. Hers, in my opion, is a bit of failure that lacks wisdom. Full stop. Oh, she thinks she knows a lot about education. As a matter of fact, she only has SOME knowledge and DOESN'T have much wisdom. What educating children needs is wisdom, but not merely knowledge. 

Look at your WHOLE immediate family on your mother's side, they ALL are in bad health. To be honest, I feel really sorry for you all. It is very sad that people can be so detrimentally stubborn and close-minded which cause their health issues. Your mother and your sister are the ones that are most stubborn and even defensive. I truly wish they could wake up sometime soon. 

In your family, your dad is the one who is constantly blamed by either your mother, you and your sister. Alas, I really feel sorry for your poor dad. As a matter of fact, your dad is the one that has more wisdom between the two parents. Unfortunately, your dad is less skillful at communicating his opinions and hence is often laughted at, either jocularly or seriously, by your sister, your mother and you. I feel really sorry again for the poor man. 

The cause of the whole issue is your mother because of her personality and who she is. I DO NOT want to muddle myself into a family with all the chaos. So I would thank you very much if we can terminate the marriage. 

Thank you very much."


I was very upset as you can imagine - and tried to call my wife when I read the email around 20:30 but she again would refuse to take my call. I spoke to my parents - but my mum was able to detect the tone in my voice. I said I had received another discouraging email. That in short it referenced my wife being afraid of my mother in the way she controls some situations. It upset my mum and my dad - but that was that.


My wife then wrote me back an email in reference to me saying that I would not let my family interfer in the way she labels and that I do want to start a family with her. 

"Come to Hitchin tomorrow. We will talk."

So I am very anxious and upset at this time.


----------



## Eden1973

Wow, ZZ. I'm a bit speechless but we've said over & over that your family connection was a sore point for your wife. I dont know. One point we've said also is to just keep your family out of it, you did have a "choice" to disclose this info to your parents, you made an excuse as to why you had to spill the beans. I'm not sure what benefit it was to them to repeat your wife's disdain. How does it help the marriage? How did the disclosure help the inlaw relationship? All it did was cause hurt to your parents. You could have chosen to not share this info, not sure the purpose in sharing. Why not come here, first, we would have said, do not share her communication with your family.

You have to decide as your wife has drawn a line, she doesn't want your mother or sister involved in the marriage or with the upbringing of any future children. Could u honestly live with that? Your wife lives an hour away from your family purposefully. She made a non verbal statement when she bought the house. Now she has just flat out said it. Yes, judgmental & a bit disrespectful but she made it clear. 

Know that if you have children she will be a mama bear to the 100th power. A possibility could exist that if your family forced there way in that she would run with your children. Could u live with that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I understand what you are saying. I would risk this to have children with my wife. I really feel bad about the way things are.

I was very upset at the time and only shared a small nugget of information with my parents. My mum wanted to know what the full contents were and I just left it at that.


----------



## Eden1973

I know you are hurting & confused. This is sad. My advice is to go see what she has to say. 

I don't know ZZ, can you really give up your family to continue in this marriage. That connection seems to be very, very strong for you. My hubby is the same in some ways but he picked a wife who doesn't mind how close they are & enjoy them every much. They don't cross any lines & are just quite lovely to be around. They are loving & wise. I enjoy them & I dont have family close by. His family doesn't interfere with our marriage or choices. They are very respectful. Lol, honestly if we lived close to my family he would probably have to deal with some of my opinated family, lol but we don't. it's tough.

Don't think any less than this question, don't entertain that it will be different, so really are you truly willing to completely walk away from your family of origin for the sake of your marriage as it appears that's what she's desiring?

Side note: please purposefully not share any more about your wife or marriage with family from this point forward. They ask just say we are working on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I have loved her for over 8 years. I have deep attachment to her. I understand what you are saying, but I will try and address her fears and would try and evaluate things to bring a balance. I love my family and that connection would always be there for me. It is a shame she doesn't want to get passed this dislike she has fested. I would hope we could look to work things out - have children. But also I am concerned that the children would feel such turblance. Families are not perfect but I would hope small changes/compromises could be made to make things work. So instead of gifts for children - we request small cash for more practical things. I need to understand more about what my wife is talking about - to her own fears. As the house she has bought is a 2 hour drive and she hasn't seen my mother since June. My mum tried to hug her goodbye and this only infuriated my wife.

My mum is hurt and my dad well is annoyed at me. I feel distant now from my both my parents and my wife. Like neither really wants to talk to me - my parents for feeling hurt, my wife for wanting separation/divorce.


----------



## nevergveup

You really need to take a long look at you wife.
Is she controlling,like she accuses your mother
of being.

Would your wife cut you out anytime you didn't
do what she wanted?

I hate to be blunt,but as it stands,you really don't
have a marriage.

In your wife's culture are wife's who divorce a
husband looked down upon?

Maybe shes hoping you divorce her.If you have kids
with her and give up your family,you have little
chance of being happy.This will build resentment and
hate over time.

Your life is going buy,while your wife leaves you hanging
by a thread.

This is how I see it.


----------



## Steve1000

Zeezack, I have just finished reading the entire thread and have a few thoughts. I have spent many years in China, each year spending time between China and the US since the 1990s. 

First, your first description of your wife is your "Chinese wife". I guess your reason for describing her this way is that you suspect that her culture background is part of the reason for the difficulty you two are having. In my opinion, her very strong characteristics are more about her individual personality and less about being Chinese. Therefore studying Chinese language and learning more about Chinese culture may not help so much to communicate with her. 

I understand that you did not handle some things very well after she relocated to the UK. However her ongoing coldness to you since July is a red flag that you should not ignore. If you two do get back together, she will likely revert to this pattern whenever she is unhappy with you. If you have children with her, her inability to communicate with you and give you basic respect when angry may lead to a very stressful life for you. 

How old are you and your wife? I think that the first mistake was that you did not spend enough time together in person before getting married. I'm not sure if you have had Chinese friends previously, but in case you haven't, keep in mind that China is a large country that is ever changing culturally and socially. Like the UK and the US, China is made up of all kinds of personality types. 

By the way, my fiancé is Chinese. We met in China and have spent two years together already. Again, how old are you and your wife? 

Hang in there.
Steve


----------



## zeezack

I am 30 and she is 34. She did spend time together before we got married. We have known each other now for about 8 years. Before marriage we lived in the same house - as house mates - for at least 2 years. She met my family on many occasions and did not show signs of disrespect. Things were still calm even after marriage for at least 1 year.

Things started to crumble with her ongoing feelings declining for my family around 2012. I understand what you mean - but she considers herself very Chinese - had always encouraged me to learn the language and seemed positive in my learning.


----------



## SaltInWound

zeezack, I am going to be blunt. You will never get anywhere with this woman. She is extremely manipulative. The most recent event is evident of that. I don't know why you would want this woman to be the mother of your children. Ignore her. File for divorce. She is getting off on watching you jump through hoops.


----------



## zeezack

Well I am at the house now. She may be willing to reconcile. She is concerned about how my family are. But she has also acknowledged some of things she had done wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LostViking

I personally think you talk too much. 

Quit talking to her and engaging with her on an emotional level. have your read the 180 yet? Try it and see how it works, but I think this marriage is beyond the point of return. 

I have a friend who lives in Denmark and he married a woman from Shanghai. She is much like your wife: arrogant, disdainful of western culture and very stubborn and controlling. 

Well, after years of trying to be nice to her, he learned that if he manned up, got in her face and literally became close to violent with her every time she acted up, that she would back off, calm down nicely and start acting sweet and more like a wife again. 

He has "learned" how to act like a Chinese husband to an extent. But he's not happy. In fact, the constant rancor and aggressiveness that he has to use to keep her in line has taken a toll on his health. He stays with her for the children, but I'm sure that as soon as the youngest goes to university, he's sending her back to Shanghai on a one way ticket.


----------



## Steve1000

LostViking said:


> Well, after years of trying to be nice to her, he learned that if he manned up, got in her face and literally became close to violent with her every time she acted up, that she would back off, calm down nicely and start acting sweet and more like a wife again.
> 
> He has "learned" how to act like a Chinese husband to an extent. .......I'm sure that as soon as the youngest goes to university, he's sending her back to Shanghai on a one way ticket.


Such a condescending post. It shows such arrogance and ignorance. By the way, your friend will have no authority to send anyone to anywhere. Whether or not his wife returns to China will be her own decision to make.


----------



## Steve1000

zeezack said:


> I am 30 and she is 34. She did spend time together before we got married. We have known each other now for about 8 years. Before marriage we lived in the same house - as house mates - for at least 2 years. She met my family on many occasions and did not show signs of disrespect. Things were still calm even after marriage for at least 1 year.
> 
> Things started to crumble with her ongoing feelings declining for my family around 2012. I understand what you mean - but she considers herself very Chinese - had always encouraged me to learn the language and seemed positive in my learning.


I was wondering if you or her married at a young age, but that's not the case. You also have known her for long enough, but perhaps not long enough as a couple. In my experience, one interesting thing about many Chinese people in China is that they tend to think that their own character represents Chinese culture - even when individual characteristics vary so much among people. 

In any case, your wife seems very stubborn and holds a grudge for a long time. I am wondering if the recent Chinese movies she showed you are related to something that she wants to communicate with you about. To me, it doesn't make sense to just watch movies with you unless she is trying to get you to see something from those movies.


----------



## zeezack

LostViking said:


> I personally think you talk too much.
> 
> Quit talking to her and engaging with her on an emotional level. have your read the 180 yet? Try it and see how it works, but I think this marriage is beyond the point of return.


Well my wife is willing to continue the marriage. Its difficult to know if the 180 tactic works with her or not. She was very neutral when we were together last night.




LostViking said:


> I have a friend who lives in Denmark and he married a woman from Shanghai. She is much like your wife: arrogant, disdainful of western culture and very stubborn and controlling.
> 
> Well, after years of trying to be nice to her, he learned that if he manned up, got in her face and literally became close to violent with her every time she acted up, that she would back off, calm down nicely and start acting sweet and more like a wife again.
> 
> He has "learned" how to act like a Chinese husband to an extent. But he's not happy. In fact, the constant rancor and aggressiveness that he has to use to keep her in line has taken a toll on his health. He stays with her for the children, but I'm sure that as soon as the youngest goes to university, he's sending her back to Shanghai on a one way ticket.


I don't think getting in her face with violence will be productive. She gets offended if I even shout at her.

She does not feel she should change or "westernize", and I don't expect her to, but I can see its a struggle for her to follow my family's way of things at times.

She did want to enlist a set of rules/requirements I should promise to keep. In terms of accepting the food she cooks and going to bed at an earlier time.

She does want me to live at the Hertfordshire home more often (pretty much all the time); which is the biggest concern for me, given we now have a 2nd London flat, additional cost of travel, time constraints, the way I will need to squeeze in or reconfigure my gym regime. Part of the problems arose from her insisting on buying the house in Hitchin and me being pulled to stay in London.

- She doesn't support me going to the gym. Doesn't want me to take any weight loss pills or protein powders - especially if we do try for a child in the upcoming half year.


----------



## zeezack

Steve1000 said:


> I was wondering if you or her married at a young age, but that's not the case. You also have known her for long enough, but perhaps not long enough as a couple. In my experience, one interesting thing about many Chinese people in China is that they tend to think that their own character represents Chinese culture - even when individual characteristics vary so much among people.
> 
> In any case, your wife seems very stubborn and holds a grudge for a long time. I am wondering if the recent Chinese movies she showed you are related to something that she wants to communicate with you about. To me, it doesn't make sense to just watch movies with you unless she is trying to get you to see something from those movies.



We did live together as house mates for about 2 years. When we lived together in a bedsit it was hard - being a small area. But we were very close. But yes living in the same room and wanting to go to bed at different times was problematic. When she got the house in Hertfordshire she regained her independence but is also a bit more definitive on how things are run in the house - from washing up in ways to save water etc.. I do feel the house will become too small once we do start a family but she is very amendment about keeping it for now. I don't think it can be given a loft extension either. 

She was watching the films at the time I came up, but yes I do suppose she wanted to keep me in the loop on her culture and belief system


----------



## sh987

After reading this... All other things aside, I don't see how children can even be a remote consideration at this time.

SH


----------



## Troubledtimes

What's the reason she doesn't want you going to the gym?


----------



## IrishGirlVA

zeezack said:


> She did want to enlist a set of rules/requirements I should promise to keep. In terms of accepting the food she cooks and going to bed at an earlier time.
> 
> She does want me to live at the Hertfordshire home more often (pretty much all the time); which is the biggest concern for me, given we now have a 2nd London flat, additional cost of travel, time constraints, the way I will need to squeeze in or reconfigure my gym regime. Part of the problems arose from her insisting on buying the house in Hitchin and me being pulled to stay in London.
> 
> - She doesn't support me going to the gym. Doesn't want me to take any weight loss pills or protein powders - especially if we do try for a child in the upcoming half year.


This is my first time posting to this thread and all I have to say at this point is --- 

:wtf:

Now go be a good boy and if you eat all your veggies you will get chocolate pudding for dessert. Yummm!!


----------



## zeezack

Troubledtimes said:


> What's the reason she doesn't want you going to the gym?


Well maybe I didn't word it correctly - she doesn't want me getting more muscular. She doesn't believe in artificial enhancements as such. I will still go to the gym, just something I will need to work around if I am to spend more time in the house she bought. Until at least I obtain a driving license and a car.


----------



## zeezack

IrishGirlVA said:


> Now go be a good boy and if you eat all your veggies you will get chocolate pudding for dessert. Yummm!!


She was pretty pissed for the last 5 months. This is the first time really she has wanted to talk about issues and proposing the notion of continuing the marriage. So I was expecting something like this. She is mainland Chinese and believes in preparing for children naturally.


----------



## zeezack

sh987 said:


> After reading this... All other things aside, I don't see how children can even be a remote consideration at this time.
> 
> SH


Well take each day as it comes. It could be she wanted to separate to consider if she wanted to have children with me or not. I think primarily because she has developed raw feelings for my sister, mum and uncle. On top of the other issues we had in our relationship. But she has just turned 34, for a Chinese woman that is already quite late in the day for having their first child.


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> I don't feel I am wrong to tell my parents that I am very upset my wife is set on leaving me. Also my wife's reasons for wanting to leave border on how she feels about my family so its very much tied together in her eyes. I have tried to console my wife that it is just about us and shouldn't be based on my family.* But she feels that she can not separate me from my family.* She has convinced herself of that.


She's right



zeezack said:


> I was very upset as you can imagine - and tried to call my wife when I read the email around 20:30 but she again would refuse to take my call.* I spoke to my parents *- but *my mum* was able to detect the tone in my voice. I said I had received another discouraging email. That in short it referenced my wife being afraid of my mother in the way she controls some situations. It upset my mum and my dad - but that was that.


^^proof that you are enmeshed with your mom (in a very unhealthy way IMO)




> Until at least I obtain a driving license and a car.


You don't have a car or a license either?

zeezack, my impression of you is that you have never really grown up. Her bio clock is ticking and she might make a baby with you, but I can't see the marriage enduring unless you do some serious growing up


----------



## zeezack

Blonde, please. I find your feedback really off-cuff at times. As if my 8 year relationship with my wife is like a game of roulette. "Sorry better luck next time"

Its natural for people to get upset ok. Its an emotional time. My mother picked up the phone, she wanted to know what was wrong and what the latest news was at the time. I told her a toned down truth of the events, that's all.



Blonde said:


> You don't have a car or a license either?


I may not have a driving license or a car, but I do have a degree, an MA, a contract rate job and a flat.

I didn't need a car whilst studying or working/living in Central London. But I have applied for a provisional license, since my wife has insisted on living in Hertfordshire. Maybe after things have settled down and I have finished learning a new computer language or the Mandarin language course - I can re-focus my efforts.


----------



## Blonde

zeezack,

I'm not trying to be mean, really I'm not. Based on what you have posted, I see an unhealthy enmeshment with your family.

I have 3 married children and I am not at all involved in their marriages. I cannot imagine them calling me up to complain about a marital issue- it just would not be healthy.

My husband and I got married when he was 27 and I was 22. He was independent and I can't imagine him ever calling up his mom, uncle, sister nor any family member regarding a marital issue. It just wouldn't happen.

Bible (which I take seriously) tells husbands LEAVE your mother and father and CLEAVE to your wife. 

You never left mum IMO.


----------



## Coffee Amore

Blonde said:


> zeezack,
> 
> I'm not trying to be mean, really I'm not. Based on what you have posted, I see an unhealthy enmeshment with your family.
> 
> I have 3 married children and I am not at all involved in their marriages. I cannot imagine them calling me up to complain about a marital issue- it just would not be healthy.
> 
> My husband and I got married when he was 27 and I was 22. He was independent and I can't imagine him ever calling up his mom, uncle, sister nor any family member regarding a marital issue. It just wouldn't happen.
> 
> Bible (which I take seriously) tells husbands LEAVE your mother and father and CLEAVE to your wife.
> 
> You never left mum IMO.



:iagree:

I think the family is far too involved in this marriage.

My siblings and I don't rely on our parents for marital advice. I don't think I could be with a man who turned to his mother so often for marital advice. 

It seems like the original poster has a marriage by committee. His wife deeply resents it and she in turn reacts to it by controlling what she can since she feels so disregarded in the relationship.


----------



## LostViking

Steve1000 said:


> Such a condescending post. It shows such arrogance and ignorance. By the way, your friend will have no authority to send anyone to anywhere. Whether or not his wife returns to China will be her own decision to make.


I wasn't rying to be condescending. I'm conveying what my friend has shared with me through our e-mails and conversations. I've never even met the woman. He could be exagerrating for all I know, but what I do know is she makes him miserable. 

But I understand she just may be a b!tch period, and not representative of Chinese women as a whole. 

So, I would appreciate it if you back up out of my face about it.


----------



## sh987

Coffee Amore said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I think the family is far too involved in this marriage.
> 
> My siblings and I don't rely on our parents for marital advice. I don't think I could be with a man who turned to his mother so often for marital advice.
> 
> It seems like the original poster has a marriage by committee. His wife deeply resents it and she in turn reacts to it by controlling what she can since she feels so disregarded in the relationship.


Yup.

If you go to your family and mention ANY problem with your spouse, they will never see that person in the same way again. Almost assuredly, their look at him/her will be permanently worse, especially since you've given your side of the story. Even if we're being fair, it's hard to see all of our spouse's side of things all the time.

And even if you smooth things out, and things get better, the family is left with the complaints you brought to them. This is even worse if they never much cared for the spouse in the first place.

SH


----------



## sh987

zeezack said:


> *Well take each day as it comes. *It could be she wanted to separate to consider if she wanted to have children with me or not. I think primarily because she has developed raw feelings for my sister, mum and uncle. On top of the other issues we had in our relationship. But she has just turned 34, for a Chinese woman that is already quite late in the day for having their first child.


I understand that completely, and would never tell you what *I* think *you* should do. It's just that, to me, with the strife you guys have been living with for many months now, the stress, work, planning and effort involved in raising a child seems like the last thing you need.

It doesn't exactly bring out the best in people, particularly when they're already having trouble.

My perspective, but good luck in all you do. 

SH


----------



## Eden1973

ZZ, progress . So what is the plan? How are you going to handle future relations with your family? You were not ready to end your marriage & have a second chance after this 5 month break. What are you going to do differently & what have you learned?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> zeezack,
> 
> I'm not trying to be mean, really I'm not. Based on what you have posted, I see an unhealthy enmeshment with your family.
> 
> I have 3 married children and I am not at all involved in their marriages. I cannot imagine them calling me up to complain about a marital issue- it just would not be healthy.
> 
> My husband and I got married when he was 27 and I was 22. He was independent and I can't imagine him ever calling up his mom, uncle, sister nor any family member regarding a marital issue. It just wouldn't happen.
> 
> Bible (which I take seriously) tells husbands LEAVE your mother and father and CLEAVE to your wife.
> 
> You never left mum IMO.


Alright. Well I find this a hard scenario - being that it is my wife who exposed her dislike for my mother to my aunty. 

Also the email (on sunday) was in direct relation to my mother and sister. It seemed to reference a looming inevitable divorce because of my own mother and sister.

I understand and try and keep problems between me and my wife - just between us. Its hard when my wife doesn't do the same (she in fact relates even more personal/private information to her parents).


----------



## zeezack

Coffee Amore said:


> :iagree:
> I think the family is far too involved in this marriage.


My wife provoked this. She was rude in front of them, cold and withdrawn - off cuff and critical.




Coffee Amore said:


> My siblings and I don't rely on our parents for marital advice. I don't think I could be with a man who turned to his mother so often for marital advice.


I am based in London, mostly living on my own. Its not so much a case I am turning to my family for advice - although they will give it. Its more so that part of this separation or on the whole as my wife puts it - is due to the way she feels about my mother.




Coffee Amore said:


> It seems like the original poster has a marriage by committee. His wife deeply resents it and she in turn reacts to it by controlling what she can since she feels so disregarded in the relationship.


If my wife was not so cold/withdrawn and blatantly not enjoying my family's company - I would not be involved in such a committee. I've always tried to involve her in the family events - and it appears to have back fired (causing her too much chaos to handle). I feel in someways I should have negated which events we go to - to make things more manageable for my wife. But she wasn't upfront about things nor did she try and forgive or forget.


----------



## zeezack

sh987 said:


> Yup.
> 
> And even if you smooth things out, and things get better, the family is left with the complaints you brought to them. This is even worse if they never much cared for the spouse in the first place.
> 
> SH


I understand this. I've tried to only keep it low key between my immediate family - who have either provoked this directly/indirectly. But it is noticed by my family who are just not happy to see me breakdown emotionally to the extent - where my wife gives me the silent treatment, gives me nuggets of hope, then dashes them away. My wife's absence at other family events has been noted without me saying anything.


----------



## sh987

zeezack said:


> I understand this. I've tried to only keep it low key between my immediate family - who have either provoked this directly/indirectly. But it is noticed by my family who are just not happy to see me breakdown emotionally to the extent - where my wife gives me the silent treatment, gives me nuggets of hope, then dashes them away. My wife's absence at other family events has been noted without me saying anything.


Oh, I absolutely believe it and don't mean to lay this all at your feet. From what I've seen in your thread, there's plenty of blame to go around, as it pertains to the family, you, and your wife.

I've been there, trying to be the guy in the middle who keeps everybody happy. Guess what? Doesn't work.

SH


----------



## zeezack

sh987 said:


> I understand that completely, and would never tell you what *I* think *you* should do. It's just that, to me, with the strife you guys have been living with for many months now, the stress, work, planning and effort involved in raising a child seems like the last thing you need.
> 
> It doesn't exactly bring out the best in people, particularly when they're already having trouble.
> 
> My perspective, but good luck in all you do.
> 
> SH


I understand what you are saying. I am emotionally exhausted. On Sunday I was asked if we could terminate the marriage, the on Monday evening in person I was told she wants to continue the marriage.

My wife was highly defensive, so I just felt it best to try and listen to her as much as possible. I didn't feel now was the time to try and negotiate/argue.

Which in a way does leave lots of mixed feelings. One being her ambiguous nature and her neutral emotional state. I think we will go slowly again on this and try and muddle out the current events/feelings. Feelings about my family for example.

My wife did make a series of requests. Some seemed reasonable, others less so. My wife would prefer I live in the house with her on a near permanent basis - but she will have to consider bending - especially on the fact she allowed me to buy a small London flat - that ALL of my stuff is currently in the flat, the reasons as to why I bought the flat in the first place. She has also asked me to setup a direct debit to her account - of quite a large amount. I didn't deem it the time to question it - if it be to help bring her security for (her mortgage) if/when she is pregnant, to ensure I am saving (for the family).

I had set up a JOINT savings account - but I feel she just won't use it. I really did want to do things jointly - joint house, joint savings - but alas - it hasn't worked out that way.

All I know is - I was very upset about the notion of divorce, of loosing her as my wife, of loosing the possibility of having children with her. At the same time this period of separation has tainted the waters a bit, will need/take time to try and repair the relationship. I am hoping she could look to compromise a bit more - be more tolerant of my family, understand of my working situation and the way I choose to manage my health (gym).


----------



## zeezack

Eden1973 said:


> ZZ, progress . So what is the plan? How are you going to handle future relations with your family? You were not ready to end your marriage & have a second chance after this 5 month break. What are you going to do differently & what have you learned?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well I have requested that if my wife has a problem with my family - she tells them immediately, doesn't let things boil over. She has said she has made some mistakes - and will try and learn from them.

I do find things difficult - because from my perspective I was trying to keep the relationship flowing (meet for lunch, dinner). I had proposed in May when she first started to tilt towards divorce about setting positive goals to look forward to etc... I had also assumed we had come to a compromise with the housing situation - she having the house in Hertfordshire, me having the flat in London. With the notion that she would at least consider staying the night with me at the flat during the mid-week - given she does work in London as well.

So its a case really of having to redraw the plans from scratch - will my wife live with me at all in the London flat - currently she would prefer even I don't live there. So I have had to at least state I would like to live at the flat at least 2-3 days a week - for work commitments, learning Chinese, learning Java programming and keep up with my training regime. I mean everything of mine is at the London flat, and I still don't have a key to the house in Hertfordshire.

So I need to plan myself on what I should keep at the house. Also try and agree with my wife on what days I will come to the house and prepare financially for additional travel costs and savings/supporting my wife.

I am younger than my wife - by nearly 3.5 years. I don't have a car or a non-provisional driving license - I was not expecting to live outside of London as such its made things harder for me. But I will aim to start lessons/theory at some point.

At the moment I am just taking it up on myself to get some more money behind me and more skills (Java programming and Chinese Mandarin).

What scares me though - is how suddenly my wife just seemed to give up - how she has withdrawn emotionally - and what seemed like negative behavior (non communication, silent treatment, small moments of abandonment) just became worse and exaggerated - to ambiguous communication, emotional abuse, true feeling of loneliness, loss of family, future family plans. But I have always felt - that I know - that my wife doesn't really ever want to get divorced or be a single mum. I've felt that she has carried a lot of internal fears - fears of not having control and this is why to some degree why I have pursed and been more passive with her for now.

Whatever we do - I know that I need to take things in steps, and I am hoping she can be patient with me as I try and grow, secure these new skills/changes.

But yes - this does worry me - if she will turn around like this again - next time with children involved.


----------



## zeezack

sh987 said:


> trying to be the guy in the middle who keeps everybody happy. Guess what? Doesn't work.
> 
> SH


My father wasn't happy when he found out I was going to get married. I had to really defend myself on it - he said stuff like "my children would be strangers to him". Essentially because there was a chance they would go to China - or be 1000's of miles from the family. But I really love this girl and I had to make the choices I felt were right at the time (3 years ago) and feel right now.


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> My wife provoked this. She was rude in front of them, cold and withdrawn - off cuff and critical.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am based in London, mostly living on my own. Its not so much a case I am turning to my family for advice - although they will give it. Its more so that part of this separation or on the whole as my wife puts it - is due to the way she feels about my mother.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If my wife was not so cold/withdrawn and blatantly not enjoying my family's company - I would not be involved in such a committee. I've always tried to involve her in the family events - and it appears to have back fired (causing her too much chaos to handle). I feel in someways I should have negated which events we go to - to make things more manageable for my wife. But she wasn't upfront about things nor did she try and forgive or forget.


 In what I quoted above you come across very blaming toward your wife. To me it sounds like everyone is against her.

I think you are going to need to choose between your wife *OR* your family. 

Can you relocate out to the country where she lives and work out there? Or sell out everything and relocate to China or somewhere else and just be a couple without all this family interference?

I would not live closer than 2 hours from my inlaws NOR my own parents. A healthy *distance* from your family might do wonders.


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> My wife did make a series of requests. Some seemed reasonable, others less so. My wife would prefer I live in the house with her on a near permanent basis - but she will have to consider bending - especially on the fact she allowed me to buy a small London flat - that ALL of my stuff is currently in the flat, the reasons as to why I bought the flat in the first place.


Brilliant! That is a plan! A married couple moves in together into the same house a nice comfortable distance away from family members who have proven intrusive and hostile.

You could sell the flat (or rent it out?). Get your drivers license, a car, maybe a new job close to the country home. (Yep I know, easier said than done, but nothing ventured, nothing gained)

And limit getting together with your family to once or twice a year. I expect she can grit her teeth and be polite twice a year for a few hours.


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> In what I quoted above you come across very blaming toward your wife. To me it sounds like everyone is against her.
> 
> I think you are going to need to choose between your wife *OR* your family.
> 
> Can you relocate out to the country where she lives and work out there? Or sell out everything and relocate to China or somewhere else and just be a couple without all this family interference?
> 
> I would not live closer than 2 hours from my inlaws NOR my own parents. A healthy *distance* from your family might do wonders.


I don't blame my wife entirely - my sister had made matters worse - and I had warned my mother about my wife's feelings before things had become spoken - but my mother and wife didn't discuss things privately etc... resolve their differences etc..

Relocation is an option for the future. But could I get the cashflow I do out there, also given my current limited Chinese skills. Also I have a mortgage and she has a mortgage in the UK. She chose not to opt for a joint mortgage (aka sell her house, before I bought the flat) - I don't think she would ever intend to rent it out and seemed very keen to keep it. 

She is already located 2 hours away from my family - who I wouldn't say "interfere" directly - its not like they just turn up every other weekend. Things got to such a state in May - that even talking to my parents on the phone became a problem for my wife. I felt it best to make any calls by LEAVING the house entirely so I wouldn't have her tutting/making comments in the background.

Even I was trying to spend more time with my wife at the weekends - as opposed to being with my family.

This interference is mostly virtual - it being my sister just emailing my wife to not be rude to my parents - especially whilst my granddad was at the time diagnosed with vascular dementia. Also my uncle who also decided to send an email - when he felt divorce was the only solution left.


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> Brilliant! That is a plan! A married couple moves in together into the same house a nice comfortable distance away from family members who have proven intrusive and hostile.


The house is just not practical for housing ALL of the contents of this flat - also I am very sure MOST of my stuff would just be up in the actic. If anything I could station my main computer in the living room.



Blonde said:


> You could sell the flat (or rent it out?). Get your drivers license, a car, maybe a new job close to the country home. (Yep I know, easier said than done, but nothing ventured, nothing gained)


- could sell the flat in the future - but I just bought it - and the broker said it would be harder to negotiate with the bank having just bought it on a 30 year mortgage in 4 months. Also again all of my stuff is in the flat and I bought the flat due to work commitments - which I felt my wife understood. My wife did buy a house - under her name, her name on the deeds and its completely populated with her belongings. Its a small 2 bedroom house - which I feel would be able to house just 1 or 2 small children - but that is a discussion for another day. Also I still don't even have a key to the house.

- I will aim to get the driver's license to help her out and to also give me more options to balance work/life.
- but again the kind of jobs I get and the rate I get them on and the hours they want - don't go hand in hand with this country home - my wife just doesn't accept this because she leaves work at 17:30. But I do sometimes have to stay on passed 18:30 or 19:00 - can also be asked to work weekends and sometimes into the early mornings. That would leave me coming back at 19:30 or 20:30 for dinner once I've made all the connections. My wife would prefer we go to bed at 22:30 the latest - so leaves me with a 2 hour window for dinner.
- I would be open to trying to take on remote work - but the work could be more unstable and pay less.



Blonde said:


> And limit getting together with your family to once or twice a year. I expect she can grit her teeth and be polite twice a year for a few hours.


I proposed going to a series of selected events - but she felt it preposterous and against her own morals. She feels its not fair on my family for me to try and negate this. I can't win if she spends time with my family to include her as my family; and I can't win if I give her time out for just spending occasions (like Christmas day) away from my family. 

My family feel that I am the one doing a LOT of the bending, and I feel this to some extent due to the options my wife chose on her own without discussion.

- Ideally I would like to sell BOTH places - choose a place we both agree on, which is bigger and close to both our work places. But my wife rejected this notion in May - in fact that was around the time she first considered divorce - due to my rejection of her buying the house in Hertfordshire - that and my family.
- Ideally I would like us to save into a JOINT savings account that I have set up in both our names. But instead she would like me to pay a substantial amount just into her own account.


----------



## Eden1973

ZZ, I love the idea of selling both homes & finding something in between that you both could agree on. Also, I agree that either you keep all money entirely separate or entirely jointly. Not sure why she wants you to put a large sum in her account only.

We discussed a while back that neglect was an issue. You said you were willing to make some adjustments in your schedule to spend more time with your wife. Now its not sounding like you want to bend as much with work,commuting & now gym. Look back at post when it was really raw, you seemed more willing. I really haven't heard much compromising on family front. 

My point being that if nothing really changes then wouldn't you end up in same place later and then with little ones in tow? 

Look at the hard reality & decide if you are good with your future outcome based on your past results given pretty much everything stays the same as the past?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steve1000

zeezack said:


> she doesn't want me getting more muscular. She doesn't believe in artificial enhancements as such. I will still go to the gym, just something I will need to work around if I am to spend more time in the house she bought.


After reading your comments about the gym along with the fact that she bought a house without your input and seems to be in control of the relationship, it seems like she is a rather controlling person. If you reunite with her, don't ignore your own needs and wishes. 

I know that you have taken quite a bit a heat from your wife and others here about sharing too much information with your family. The irony (to me anyway) is that one common trait among Chinese people is that they often are very close with their parents and tell them everything.


----------



## zeezack

Eden1973 said:


> ZZ, I love the idea of selling both homes & finding something in between that you both could agree on. Also, I agree that either you keep all money entirely separate or entirely jointly. Not sure why she wants you to put a large sum in her account only.
> 
> We discussed a while back that neglect was an issue. You said you were willing to make some adjustments in your schedule to spend more time with your wife. Now its not sounding like you want to bend as much with work,commuting & now gym. Look back at post when it was really raw, you seemed more willing. I really haven't heard much compromising on family front.
> 
> My point being that if nothing really changes then wouldn't you end up in same place later and then with little ones in tow?
> 
> Look at the hard reality & decide if you are good with your future outcome based on your past results given pretty much everything stays the same as the past?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would have preferred that we got a joint mortgage, but my wife a year ago didn't wait for me. I did propose I wait in the rental flat (e.g. not buy the London flat/cancel/withdraw from the purchase) for my wife to put the house up for sale - but she refused.

Bending my own stuff is one thing, especially when the work is inconsistent etc... but my wife has appeared to only make demands as opposed to what she would consider compromising. Even standing my ground with living in the new London flat for 2-3 days a week was a bit a challenge for her, but this she will have to bend on - especially if I am now to take on monthly transfers to help pay for her mortgage/savings.


----------



## zeezack

My sister's latest comments to the news of my wife wanting to continue the marriage


After how she's behaved and treated you and mum I'm surprised you want to be with her

I do not want her here for Xmas

She is a *****

The way she has treated you is disgusting

All on her terms as usual

I'm not even surprised!


----------



## SadandAngry

I've read through your whole thread. You and your wife don't seem to be a team in any sense of the word. I don't see any real trust, nor in fact, much reason for either of you to trust one another. I think you are far too passive. I think you need to be a leader. I think it may be too late, and she will not trust you enough to follow your lead. I think it would be a mistake for you to try to follow her lead. It would be a mistake to put your paycheck into her account. It is a mistake to view the properties as individual asserts as opposed to joint assets. Do you even know what your legal standing is? Here it doesn't really matter if only one name is registered, if the property was bought during the marriage, both people have a share in it. I think it is a mistake to try to bear the burden of two mortgages too. If you are set on keeping both properties, you need to get income from one of them. Maybe set the flat up as a rental on something like Air b n b. You'd get some income, but you'll also have responsibilities added as a result.

You've got some real issues to work out. It's your job to stand up for your wife. Even when you might not agree with her. I cannot emphasize enough the damage you do to what should be your primary relationship by sitting on the sidelines, because you think your wife ought to work things out on her own. I understand fully the thought process, I used to do the same thing. Huge mistake. Enormous. Monumental. It is the right thing for many situations, but not in regards to your spouse. You need to step up and set clear boundaries for what is, and is not acceptable from your family. Your sister was way out of line. Your uncle, so far out of bounds! Your aunt even. What your wife was doing was not gossip, she was probably looking for help and advice, but instead it would seem she had her concerns trumpeted far and wide, and not accepted as possibly having merit.

You've hardly lived in a manner conducive to building and maintaining a bond it seems, for whatever reason. You've made choices, and those choices have consequences. The consequences don't always line up with the intention behind the choices. As you try to decide on the best course of action, you need to pay more attention to the consequences your choices will have. Where you live. Where you work. How you are going to spend your time. Your budgetary needs. If you do not get time with your wife, if you spend it all commuting and working, you won't be able to reconnect, and you'll be wasting your effort. What do you want? Why her? Really, why her? Do you actually know what she wants? Deep down? How does she see life playing out? What are her hopes? Her dreams? Her aspirations? Do they line up with yours? From what you've posted, I don't think you can honestly say you do know. You need to have some pretty deep conversations with your wife before you continue on with your marriage. You both need to find out if you are fundamentally on the same page still. If you aren't, you need to divorce, you can't hope someone will fundamentally change, it just won't happen. If you are, then you need to figure out your common goals, and work together, to support each other. I'd say talking to your wife about life should be your first big priority. Be realistic. Be honest. With her, and with yourself. You'll never make it if you aren't.


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> My sister's latest comments to the news of my wife wanting to continue the marriage
> 
> 
> After how she's behaved and treated you and mum I'm surprised you want to be with her
> 
> I do not want her here for Xmas
> 
> She is a *****
> 
> The way she has treated you is disgusting
> 
> All on her terms as usual
> 
> I'm not even surprised!


How do you think you should handle these comments?


----------



## Starstarfish

It seems to me, OP, that what you really want is a part-time wife. You want to be able to part of the week staying in your own place (with all of your stuff) - doing whatever you like, and then see your wife when it's convenient to your schedule. 
How is this different than when you were first married and saw her occasionally? 

She told you she isn't happy living in the city. You didn't seem to take that seriously, so she bought a house without you. Your solution was to demand that she sell it, or you were going to get your own place. And you did. And now one of the main reasons given that you need to keep it - is that the bachelor pad you've built up (even though you -just- bought it) has too much stuff.



> My family feel that I am the one doing a LOT of the bending, and I feel this to some extent due to the options my wife chose on her own without discussion.


You say you aren't over-meshed with your family, but you can't help but mention their opinion. Why does their opinion matter so much, that you need to keep calling them, emailing them, and generally discussing every blow by blow of this situation with your wife? This is -exactly- what she's talking about. 

But instead of seeing that, you turn it around on her that they are only that way because she "acted cold." You minimize and excuse your family's poor behavior towards her. And sorry there is no "just emailing" (again minimizing) in the manner your sister and uncle do. How is the solution to "fixing" someone supposedly being rude, being rude?


----------



## zeezack

Starstarfish said:


> She told you she isn't happy living in the city. You didn't seem to take that seriously, so she bought a house without you. Your solution was to demand that she sell it, or you were going to get your own place. And you did. And now one of the main reasons given that you need to keep it - is that the bachelor pad you've built up (even though you -just- bought it) has too much stuff.


Its not like that at all. Back in Jan 2012 - we were both living in a bed sit. We had to move out - so I found a studio for us both to live in. Before we moved into the studio - she put an offer down for a 1 bedroom flat in the city - Shepherd's Bush. We agreed - but the offer fell through.

So I had to resort to us moving into a studio flat for the both of us. 2 months into the rent - she tells me that she is going to buy a house outside of the city without me agreeing. She left the studio place to live in her house. Some of my clothes were moved there - but I stayed in the rented accommodation. She told me she only wanted me to make the effort to come up at the weekends and given my working hours spilled over past 18:30 to 20:00 and I was working into the evening on other projects that is how we managed.

In May 2013 - I was allegeable for the mortgage and said I need to need to get out of the rental situation. I said I wanted this to be a joint venture. She was willing to make it a joint mortgage - I included her on everything from bank meetings, to viewings etc... I asked for her permission if she wanted me to put an offer in - she said yes. She started a new job in May and was unable to get onto the mortgage with me. I went through with the offer - but before I paid the deposit - we had a dispute - I said to her look why don't you sell the house in Hertfordshire rather then let me buy a flat in London like this - we could then aim to get a JOINT mortgage under a bigger house, closer to the city - where we both agree on. She refused. I didn't want to get this split of properties - and I was under the impression I had her approval as it was a near joint venture. The week I get the keys to the new flat - she then pulls out of the relationship. The bachelor pad that I have - contains ONLY my stuff - a) because its from the studio where I was mostly living when my wife abandoned me to buy a house outside the city. b) she initiated a separation and most of my clothes were taken outside the house and transported back to London.

- remember I am not on the mortgage in her house, not on the deeds, don't have a key, didn't have a say on the location, furniture and no say in any of the decoration. I know for instance that she wouldn't want to have any of my stuff put up - eg.. painting, etc... so this is how things are to date. There has currently been NO discussion as to what I would have in the house with the exception of maybe a few clothes and a laptop.

+ on top my wife would like me to start a monthly transfer of funds into her account. So technically I would be helping her pay for a mortgage I never had a say in her getting. I would do my best though to try and help provide for my family.


----------



## zeezack

Starstarfish said:


> It seems to me, OP, that what you really want is a part-time wife. You want to be able to part of the week staying in your own place (with all of your stuff) - doing whatever you like, and then see your wife when it's convenient to your schedule.
> How is this different than when you were first married and saw her occasionally?


I did want to live with my wife in a joint house - she refused. I do however contribute a lot of support - for things like dental, things she needs.

When we were first married we LIVED together, but in the city. We were also saving and working towards the common goal of a joint mortgage.

Also "She told you she isn't happy living in the city" - after she bought the house outside and the flat she was going to get inside the city fell through.

"my families opinion " - matters to her - as she doesn't want to be deemed the blacksheep. Before any emailing occurred - she was a bit offcuff with the family - for various reasons.

But you are right - sending emails to her with faults to her behaviour does not help - my uncle did this in anger - believing divorce to be on the books after she said that in capital letters.


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> How do you think you should handle these comments?


Yeah I am not going to share them with my wife. But just showing you guys what I am up against per say - and it was my sister who essentially first provoked my wife in June with an email - which essentially just asked her not to be cold/rude towards my parents. I have told my sister though that although I understand the hostilities, unlike a girlfriend/boyfriend scenario - I am married and I would like my wife to be my life partner.


----------



## zeezack

I concur with a lot of what SadAndAngry says - I have been too passive - because my wife has become too aggressive. She doesn't want any conflict or any differences to what she wants. 

I am trying to lead - but she has complete control in her house - even down to how she wants the washing up done. Its all for good intentions (energy saving) I see that, but that is just how extreme things are with her.

I mean - I feel unsafe to LIVE in the house - because she has kicked me out of it SO many times - and since I have no part-ownership of it - does de-stable the trust - but mostly because if she gets pissed off she just requests I go back to London.





SadandAngry said:


> I think it is a mistake to try to bear the burden of two mortgages too. If you are set on keeping both properties, you need to get income from one of them. Maybe set the flat up as a rental on something like Air b n b. You'd get some income, but you'll also have responsibilities added as a result.


Its not the plan I had, but yes before I bought the 2nd flat - she didn't discuss - again - how much of a contribution she wanted. I can't yet turn the flat into a rental - because I will need to have put a bigger percentage of my end down, maybe later on its an option.





SadandAngry said:


> You need to step up and set clear boundaries for what is, and is not acceptable from your family. Your sister was way out of line. Your uncle, so far out of bounds! Your aunt even. What your wife was doing was not gossip, she was probably looking for help and advice, but instead it would seem she had her concerns trumpeted far and wide, and not accepted as possibly having merit.


I know she was looking to my aunty for consultation - I did understand that. But I also know what my aunty can be like and I had requested my wife keep personal issues like that just between me and her.

I did tell both my sister and uncle - that it was not a) the right medium, b) the right time and c) their tone was off and if they wanted to say even a fraction of how they felt about anything - should have waited/tried to do it in person.



SadandAngry said:


> Where you live. Where you work. How you are going to spend your time. Your budgetary needs. If you do not get time with your wife, if you spend it all commuting and working, you won't be able to reconnect, and you'll be wasting your effort. What do you want? Why her? Really, why her? Do you actually know what she wants? Deep down? How does she see life playing out? What are her hopes? Her dreams? Her aspirations? Do they line up with yours?


I agree with this too. These are conversations I had had with my wife 9 months ago - I thought we had come to a compromised, but obviously not. Either way - depending on when she will give me a key, what I can or should take to stay in the house, which days I can definitely try and stick to, and if she can be flexible on how much she is requesting - and if I could put half in her account/half in the joint savings.

I feel I really do love being with her, although she can be extremely difficult - and recently really impossible. But you are right - some of our ambitions/dreams do fall on other paths - but I have to say our relationship is very unconventional and as such may work on unconventional methods.


----------



## Openminded

Your relationship will work as long as you always let her have her way. Good luck with that. It's going to be a difficult life.


----------



## zeezack

Openminded said:


> Your relationship will work as long as you always let her have her way. Good luck with that. It's going to be a difficult life.


Well it didn't become apparent like that until a) she got the house on her own and b) she initiated a separation.

I have been far too passive, but I did try and enforce some stands in relation to the London flat. I feel though - that she may have some inner fears of being a mother - from pregnancy/to mother hood - so she may be demanding a lot more from me to fulfill that security. It could be a major reason as to why she initiated a timeout/separation initially.


----------



## Starstarfish

> we could then aim to get a JOINT mortgage under a bigger house


If she wasn't able to be added to the first mortgage attempt because of citizenship/visa issues (I think that's what you said previously), how was that going to be resolved getting one later?
How did she get her own mortgage if she couldn't sign one with you?


----------



## zeezack

Starstarfish said:


> If she wasn't able to be added to the first mortgage attempt because of citizenship/visa issues (I think that's what you said previously), how was that going to be resolved getting one later?
> How did she get her own mortgage if she couldn't sign one with you?


Some lenders wouldn't lend to her on her married visa status. But one did - Natwest - I think. She had a massive deposit - borrowed mostly from her parents.

I did know of this offer - but I said to her specifically in Jan 2012 - we will try and manage with what we have - please do NOT use your families money unless its a last resort. She ignored me and put like 50k+ down on the deposit for the house. She by this time had started to get so pissed with my family - and their advice she didn't want to use their money. She felt that my side of the deposit (10k) was not really offered nor sufficient support.

She told me that a man in China can not even get a girlfriend unless he has a house and a car, let alone a wife.

- I eventually built up my side of the pot through the work I obtained over the 2 years and so - with my wife's permission I was allowed to get a 2nd place - with it being considered as a BASE.


----------



## Starstarfish

I just have to ask, what kind of work do you do that your hours are so random sometimes?


----------



## zeezack

Starstarfish said:


> I just have to ask, what kind of work do you do that your hours are so random sometimes?


I'm a contract senior web developer. So I could be working 9-5:30 if lucky - but most roles at 9-6:30. Some I have led a team up to 1a.m. in the morning for double pay. I could be working anywhere in London - so the commute back to the Hertfordshire home could range from 1 hour to 2 hours (eg. could be 8:30p.m. by the time I get back to the house). Its also a case that if I used the Hertfordshire home as my point of origin it could detract employers from giving me the job as they like to hire people more local.

Once my wife has decided to open up more (give me the key to the house) - I will do my best to take on the commute to spend more time with her during the week, but I am hoping she will consider compromising at least once a week (which I thought was the arrangement) to stay with me at the London flat.


----------



## zeezack

Ok, maybe I misunderstood Monday's actions. I thought she was considering a continuation of the marriage. I just received this email from her when I asked if she wanted to spend some time this saturday looking for a suit for my new job. I had said this about something I would like her to consider not doing in the future.

"Indecisiveness. On Sunday you sent me an email asking to terminate the marriage, then on the same day you invite me to come to the house. On Monday evening you then inform me you would like to continue the marriage."

--


"I opt for the 2-year seperation. Hence, there is no divorce paper to be presented at this stage. But as I said, the separation started since Easter this year where your mother and your sister severely slated me. Since you interpreted my actions to be indecisive, I would like to inform you here and now that I certainly would like to divorce from you. 

No, thank you very much for your invitation. I shall not send any message to your mother or attend the party as I know it is best I am not there and I do not want to be in a family chaos again. 

No, thank you for your invitation. You are a man of yourself and you are more than capable of choosing a suit that you like. "


----------



## SadandAngry

Well there it is for you. Go seek legal counsel. Find out where you stand, and file yourself. Ask her why she wants you to deposit money to her account if she has no intention of staying married? Separation is bs as far as I'm concerned, but perhaps it is a necessary step. You need to educate yourself asap. If it were me, I might capitalize on her poor judgement and go for half the house.


----------



## Openminded

zeezack said:


> Well it didn't become apparent like that until a) she got the house on her own and b) she initiated a separation.
> 
> I have been far too passive, but I did try and enforce some stands in relation to the London flat. I feel though - that she may have some inner fears of being a mother - from pregnancy/to mother hood - so she may be demanding a lot more from me to fulfill that security. It could be a major reason as to why she initiated a timeout/separation initially.


My guess is the way she is now is the way she will be going forward. Having a child/children will only make her more controlling. You are the only one who knows if you can spend the rest of your life dealing with that.

ETA:
Just saw your last post. Let her go.


----------



## Eden1973

You two leave me speechless. ZZ, I feel like something is missing here....

"No, thank you very much for your invitation. I shall not send any message to your mother or attend the party as I know it is best I am not there and I do not want to be in a family chaos again."

Did you ask her to reach out to your family & attend some future family event?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Well I was under the impression we were on the brink of continuing our marriage.

I told her its my mum's 60th birthday on the 29th Nov. That there is a surprise birthday being planned for her in late dec. I guess I made her angry and she retaliated. 

This feels like thin ice for sure, sometimes it settles other times it cracks.


----------



## Eden1973

Give her exactly what she wants, a divorce. Again you are young. Learn from this & then find a mate that u are compatible with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SaltInWound

Your wife has got to be the most business-like, coldly responsive person I have ever heard of. I feel sorry for her future children.


----------



## zeezack

I am confused. When I saw her in person she was using phrases like "if you want to live with me." She went through a whole list of issues and talked about the possibility of continuing the marriage.


----------



## Eden1973

zeezack said:


> I am confused. When I saw her in person she was using phrases like "if you want to live with me." She went through a whole list of issues and talked about the possibility of continuing the marriage.


From the latest email it should be clear what she wants. Does it take a 2 year separation in ur country to get a divorce?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SaltInWound

zeezack said:


> I am confused. When I saw her in person she was using phrases like "if you want to live with me." She went through a whole list of issues and talked about the possibility of continuing the marriage.


Zee, some people are like that. They lie to string you along and watch you jump through hoops, knowing they have no intention of giving you what you want. I suppose she is done stringing you along. Get a lawyer and file for a divorce. She will never do it. Don't take her inaction as hope that she has changed her mind about the marriage.


----------



## zeezack

I don't think she has gone to a solicitor - and I have not received an actual letter/case number or anything. I thought we were therefore going through a trial separation (with no defined rules). When she mentioned divorce in October - I proposed for her to go for a 2 year separation and expected her to have contacted a solicitor.

As I said - we spoke for about 2 hours on monday evening about the possibility of continuing the marriage. I took it as a slow step to reconciliation - maybe I jumped the gun too soon out of misinterpretation. I don't understand why she hasn't seen a solicitor if she feels this strongly about it. Also why she pin points the 2 year separation as of Easter. There is nothing technically stopping her from stating it was last Easter? At this rate the 2 year separation will come to an end of Eater 2015 - when she turns 36?

There are other types of reasons she can present for divorce.

She really has bad feelings towards my family - and I am unsure if she can eventually look to overcome this or wait 2 years and then contact a solicitor?


----------



## SaltInWound

Zee, she is done with the marriage. So done that she can't even communicate with you in a warm loving manner. 

Does she need the marriage to stay in your country? Will a divorce create legal complications for her?


----------



## zeezack

SaltInWound said:


> Zee, she is done with the marriage. So done that she can't even communicate with you in a warm loving manner.
> 
> Does she need the marriage to stay in your country? Will a divorce create legal complications for her?


No. She obtained her ILV in April. Nearly got a joint mortgage with me in June. Then said she gave herself a time out in July. Then said in mid-August she was considering a divorce. Now she has pinned Easter 2013 as the start of a separation period.

I find her so ambiguous and inconsistent. Its difficult to know with her - because we have been together for 8 years. She was so anti-divorce and now appears to be pro-divorce.

I am telling you guys - she was asking pro-marriage-reconciliation based questions all evening. Teaching me more Chinese words - she laughed a little - talked about the possibility of continuing the marriage.

If she really wanted to divorce asap - she could pin a date way back in Jan 2012 - the marriage visa had my family's home down as her main residence.

Her notion of love - has always been very different. True its completely ice cold on the rocks. But even when we were together it was always a slow trickle. She was never the huggy/lovey dovey type.


----------



## SaltInWound

zeezack said:


> No. She obtained her ILV in April.


And the separation happened same time.......right?


----------



## zeezack

SaltInWound said:


> And the separation happened same time.......right?


Not from my memory - this was the time of my mother's anniversary - March/April. Where she behaved off cuff - withdrawn from talking with them etc.. around the time she lost her primary job.

We were still fairly intimate and dating all the way up to late June. It was at the start of July she changed her behavior (not wanting to meet for lunch, not wanting me to come to the house, but she would make time for a restaurant meal on sundays). 

Legally she was on the joint tenancy agreement for the rented studio I recently left on October 2nd.


----------



## Blonde

SaltInWound said:


> Zee, some people are like that. They lie to string you along and watch you jump through hoops, knowing they have no intention of giving you what you want. I suppose she is done stringing you along. Get a lawyer and file for a divorce. She will never do it. Don't take her inaction as hope that she has changed her mind about the marriage.


meh,

I don't see her as "lying" to "string him along". I think she might have had some genuine internal conflict about whether they could make it work. She might have hoped he was finally changing and leaving his mum to cleave to his wife but his e-mail proved that was not going to happen. 

zeezack is uber involved with his family and his own life and she doesn't want to be sidelined anymore. Understandable IMO.


----------



## sh987

zeezack: perhaps I'm misunderstanding here.

-You thought there was a reconciliation happening?
-Did you then invite her to a family function with your mother and sister?
-If your answer is "yes", have you considered the possibility that you're actually insane?


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> meh,
> 
> I don't see her as "lying" to "string him along". I think she might have had some genuine internal conflict about whether they could make it work. She might have hoped he was finally changing and leaving his mum to cleave to his wife but his e-mail proved that was not going to happen.
> 
> zeezack is uber involved with his family and his own life and she doesn't want to be sidelined anymore. Understandable IMO.


I think she has genuine internal conflict too. She is convinced I won't change. But then will also not let me have a chance to change or allow change in herself. I have told her - even tonight in person -that I am a grown man and I will choose time to be with my wife as opposed to be with my family - she won't have it. She thinks its unfair on my parents - that I will be displeasing them and this is not her custom (the Chinese way). So I can't seem to come to a compromise with her - if we go to a family event to make her feel part of the family or if we don't go and spend the time with just me and her (like christmas day for example).

So its not that I am uber involved with my family in a bad way -- they do have their own medical problems etc... grandfather with vascula dementia, mother diagnosed with myopic dygeneration.

I don't want to sideline my wife - but she won't have it any other way. She currently completely rejects the notion of wanting to have children with me. Unable to be culturally compatible with my family - based on her past observations. She seldom answers my emails and often ignores my phone calls (unless there is some miracle communication space). Today she even handed back the keys to the London flat I gave her - she would not even keep them in case of emergencies.


----------



## zeezack

sh987 said:


> zeezack: perhaps I'm misunderstanding here.
> 
> -You thought there was a reconciliation happening?


^ to some degree yes - my wife on monday used the words "talk about the possibility of continuing the marriage" - she spoke about it for 2 hours. Down the granular detail of our planned sex life before preparing to having children, foods I should be looking to eat, no use of weight loss pills, protein powders etc... bed before a certain time. Using the words like "if you want to live with me"



sh987 said:


> -Did you then invite her to a family function with your mother and sister?


- If she wanted to consider breaking the ice - if she indeed was considering reconciliation - I told her about upcoming events.



sh987 said:


> -If your answer is "yes", have you considered the possibility that you're actually insane?


I am not insane. I did tell her that I don't expect her to attend that the option is there - one event is a month away. If she was using the words "possibly continue the marriage", talk about having children etc.. but hey now we know right. She had a more accepting tone on monday, but we have gone back to the usual no way.


----------



## Eden1973

Well maybe she didn't like your answers or responses on Monday as she doesn't believe you can change, based on your answers. It appears that Monday firmed up some things for her & now she has given you your key back.

So are u ready to accept that ur marriage is over & start processing that reality? It's tough but not impossible to still have all you desire in life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sh987

zeezack said:


> ^ to some degree yes - my wife on monday used the words "talk about the possibility of continuing the marriage" - she spoke about it for 2 hours. Down the granular detail of our planned sex life before preparing to having children, foods I should be looking to eat, no use of weight loss pills, protein powders etc... bed before a certain time. Using the words like "if you want to live with me"


Ok, with you so far... I mean it's all completely on HER terms and doesn't appear to be on yours in any way, shape or form. It's much less a reconciliation than it is a power play by your wife.



> - If she wanted to consider breaking the ice - if she indeed was considering reconciliation - I told her about upcoming events.


I just... I... You... I can't believe that you had the balls to bring up your family at that time. I've not met either of you, but it seems like the last two people on earth she wanted to hear about were your mother and sister.




> I am not insane. I did tell her that I don't expect her to attend that the option is there - one event is a month away. If she was using the words "possibly continue the marriage", talk about having children etc.. but hey now we know right. She had a more accepting tone on monday, but we have gone back to the usual no way.


I just wouldn't have brought it up at all. You two can barely make it through a talk with the just the two of you, let alone two people whom she (rightly or wrongly) feels have grievously insulted her.

But yes, you're exactly right: now you know. Other than outright abuse and perhaps infidelity, I would never suggest people get a divorce; people seem to hand out that sort of advice so flippantly. But, I just don't know where you two can go from here. She says she'll get back together with you, so long as she's in control of (what seems like) every facet of your life. 

What's in it for you?


----------



## zeezack

Eden1973 said:


> Well maybe she didn't like your answers or responses on Monday as she doesn't believe you can change, based on your answers. It appears that Monday firmed up some things for her & now she has given you your key back.
> 
> So are u ready to accept that ur marriage is over & start processing that reality? It's tough but not impossible to still have all you desire in life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was mostly just listening to her on monday. Had an amicable time. Its like the conversation I had tonight, was the one I was expecting on monday.

I am just taking every day as it comes. I get told one thing and then another in the span of 72 hours. I suppose I now have a 1.5 year window to wait until she files anything.

The real big concern seemed to be coming back to family chaos.


----------



## zeezack

sh987 said:


> Ok, with you so far... I mean it's all completely on HER terms and doesn't appear to be on yours in any way, shape or form. It's much less a reconciliation than it is a power play by your wife.
> 
> 
> 
> I just... I... You... I can't believe that you had the balls to bring up your family at that time. I've not met either of you, but it seems like the last two people on earth she wanted to hear about were your mother and sister.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just wouldn't have brought it up at all. You two can barely make it through a talk with the just the two of you, let alone two people whom she (rightly or wrongly) feels have grievously insulted her.
> 
> But yes, you're exactly right: now you know. Other than outright abuse and perhaps infidelity, I would never suggest people get a divorce; people seem to hand out that sort of advice so flippantly. But, I just don't know where you two can go from here. She says she'll get back together with you, so long as she's in control of (what seems like) every facet of your life.
> 
> What's in it for you?


I am just perplexed to some degree on monday and thursday - the movement on the marriage went up and down. 

Yeah well on tuesday morning I did feel she had come back a bit. She is just unwilling to do anything to salvage the marriage - based on cultural value systems being different. She is so fixated to not want to return back to a dysfunctional family - poor health mother, wrongly brought up sister, immature uncle who has a girlfriend, maybe doesn't want to face my grandfather in the home with one leg.

I've made mistakes I know. But when it comes to the family - being a primary hook on the marriage - and I have a limited array of options; limit visits; tolerate, not go - none of them are satisfactory to her.

8 years we have been together and none of these factors appeared as a major problem until Easter of this year. She did not enter into marriage lightly at all, but seems to consider divorce the only solution now. Not even willing to attend a marriage counselling session - with reference to cross cultures/family issues - just to talk to someone else about it generally.


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> I was mostly just listening to her on monday. Had an amicable time. Its like the conversation I had tonight, was the one I was expecting on monday.
> 
> I am just taking every day as it comes. I get told one thing and then another in the span of 72 hours. I suppose I now have a 1.5 year window to wait until she files anything.
> 
> The real big concern seemed to be coming back to family chaos.


Wow. Just wow. Are you seriously prepared to accept your situation for a year and a half? Are you that dense? What part of take action is so hard for you to grasp. You are afraid of doing something wrong. Believe me, doing nothing is worse than doing something wrong. Doing nothing confirms that you will not change. Doing nothing confirms that you are not, in fact, an adult. Doing nothing confirms there is not much to work with.

Do SOMETHING! Do something for yourself. If you want to wait, and try to nice your marriage back to life, to let your wife have all the control, your marriage is doomed, and you are wasting your time. You want to get on with your life? Go see a lawyer. Give her a wake up call. Hand her divorce papers. Then you will have a chance to end this limbo. To end the bull****. Either she's in, or she's out. Find out. Get to the rejection and get it over with, so you can move on. 

Were you planning on giving her half your earnings for the next year and a half as a show of good faith?


----------



## SadandAngry

Talk is cheap. Look at her actions. Stop talking yourself, it's getting you nowhere. Start acting.


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> Wow. Just wow. Are you seriously prepared to accept your situation for a year and a half? Are you that dense? What part of take action is so hard for you to grasp. You are afraid of doing something wrong. Believe me, doing nothing is worse than doing something wrong. Doing nothing confirms that you will not change. Doing nothing confirms that you are not, in fact, an adult. Doing nothing confirms there is not much to work with.
> 
> Do SOMETHING! Do something for yourself. If you want to wait, and try to nice your marriage back to life, to let your wife have all the control, your marriage is doomed, and you are wasting your time. You want to get on with your life? Go see a lawyer. Give her a wake up call. Hand her divorce papers. Then you will have a chance to end this limbo. To end the bull****. Either she's in, or she's out. Find out. Get to the rejection and get it over with, so you can move on.
> 
> Were you planning on giving her half your earnings for the next year and a half as a show of good faith?


Well man. I have done something - I have tried to understand the situation to date. As I say I went over there on monday and on thursday. She didn't invite me up on thursday and I knew she would not answer the phone etc... so I went up there to try and get more answers.

Like I say the conversation/atmosphere was different on monday to what it was on thursday. For months she has gone down a completely divorce driven road and then on monday she hits me with a discussion of reconciliation (continuing the marriage).

This is all very raw at the moment. 1.5 years is a chunk of time - and I was only told about these dates and the kind of separation she now considers this a day or so ago.

I think maybe she has used April 2013 as the date because this is at the brink of her obtaining the ILR. I can't be sure of that - as she never gave that as her reason, but it could be possibility.


----------



## SadandAngry

I know I sound harsh, but man, read your thread again, with a critical eye. Your situation is pretty harsh, and yes, the timing of things is suspicious.


----------



## LostViking

Divorce her. 

And pass the plum sauce please....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SaltInWound

zeezack said:


> I think maybe she has used April 2013 as the date because this is at the brink of her obtaining the ILR. I can't be sure of that - as she never gave that as her reason, but it could be possibility.


I think you need to dig a little deeper with this thought.


----------



## zeezack

She seems more amicable towards me. But very resistant on the whole family issue. Filial piety - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is a great importance to her - and she is convinced that I will not be catering for my parent's wishes if I choose to remain with her.

“you can never get out of the control of your mother. she is who she is. after all she and your dad gave you life, please find someone who can get along with them. i am not the right cadidate.”


----------



## zeezack

"You completely misunderstood what I said. I apologise if I did not explain myself clearly to you. As I expressed before, it is futile to look into other people's marriage problems because each marriage experiences different problems with different people and hence different causes. 

When I say that I do not get along with your family, I refer to the fundementally different value system between mine and yours and your family's. Your family and you have the right to uphold the value system that you all are happy with and I have no right to interfere or criticise your value system or anything else. However, I do have my own judgement and I do not want my value system to be endangered by your family and you, and I assume vice versa. Hence, divorcing from you and your family is the best solution. 

I told you many times, and I still hold the same view, that you are an indispensible part of your family and you can never and must not separate yourself from them as there is no one in the world can replace their place in your life because they are of the closest blood relation to you. When it comes to filial piety, you should place your parents' happiness as the top priority. For example, your dad should place your grandma's happiness first. 

In the past few years I gradually realised that my value system and your family's are completely different. This is something I did not fully recognise before I entered into the marriage, despite the fact that I mentioned the differences and potential marital difficulties in my letter to your parents in March 2010. I understand that your family are very proud of their value system and other things. Hence, it is only reasonable for me to leave them intact as I do not wish to intrude their lives. 

However, I have my own judgement and my own set of values, and my value system is in conflict with your family's. Hence, if I continued the marriage, the family would have more chaos on top of what they already experience. It is far easier to ease the situation before there is any blood connection established. I taught many years in primary schools in England and I observed the huge damage done to children due to family conflicts, either between the children's parents or their relatives. 

Please do not talk of change because I know, and you know as well, that it is almost impossible for adults to change their established value systems. You are who you are and your family are who they are. I am who I am. I respect you and your family as fellow human beings. Hence, it is best to leave everyone in peace and lead the life they wish to lead.

I am very tired of constant family disputes, either experiencing them myself or listening to your family talking of them. Hence, I would truly appreciate a divorce. I hope this email explains my thoughts clearly enough and please forgive me if there is any wording that might be interpreted to be offensive as I know your family are very sensitive. "


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> "Hence, divorcing from you *and your family* is the best solution.
> 
> ...
> I am very tired of *constant family disputes*, either experiencing them myself or listening to your family talking of them"


She is not divorcing you but you *and your family*...

Also sounds like she got help with the English this time. I don't see the grammar mistakes like the past e-mails. Who might be helping?



> *Please do not talk of change because I know, and you know as well, that it is almost impossible for adults to change *their established value systems. You are who you are and your family are who they are. I am who I am. I respect you and your family as fellow human beings. Hence, it is best to leave everyone in peace and lead the life they wish to lead.


Hogwash! People can and do grow up and relinquish bad habits. 

But zeezack you are too enmeshed with your family, they control you, and she wants a divorce from that.


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> But zeezack you are too enmeshed with your family, they control you, and she wants a divorce from that.


I am trying to regain my own control. It was a difficult line between her having no family in England at all, and only mine to visit.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

Why does the title mention that she's Chinese?


----------



## zeezack

CouldItBeSo said:


> Why does the title mention that she's Chinese?


She is mainland Chinese - and values her culture dearly. I think a big part of the problems is due to cross-cultural issues and maybe deep rooted fears of her loosing control/identity of herself and any children we have.


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> you are too enmeshed with your family, they control you, and she wants a divorce from that.


I should also tell you - that she wrote that email to me - and also cc'd my father, mother and sister too. She herself is kicking that family bucket.

I've tried to explain to my wife - lets work on just you and me first, then look to compromise/negotiate on values, set boundaries etc... she appears stuck in this loop of filial piety - as if my parent's happiness is not coming first


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> I should also tell you - that she wrote that email to me - and also cc'd my father, mother and sister too. She herself is kicking that family bucket.


Hmmm

If I got an e-mail cc like that from my DIL, I would feel chastized about my nosy interference in their marriage AND I would feel worried about my son- that his relationship is failing because he has been unable to grow up and individuate.


----------



## LostViking

She needs to stay in the country until the kids are grown at the very least. You need to see a lawyer to make sure she does not take them out of the country. If she does you will never see them again. 

Your wife seems to be a very determined and single minded person. That, coupled with her iron pride and cold heart, will make her a formidable enemy in a divorce. Gird your loins and get the meanest solicitor you can find.


----------



## zeezack

My mum replied

"Dear x, 
It has been a terrible time for us knowing of the difficulties between you and y. We are devastated that you have come to this decision because we thought that you and y were actually well suited, in so many ways. He was so happy on his wedding day. I was always happy and proud to call you my daughter-in-law. Please, always remember that. We greatly miss you in our family and definitely do not want you to divorce.

It is my wish that you and y could manage your marriage with compromise, love and understanding. I have always admired the values you have and would continue to support them and upheld them with your children in the future. We could have a list of expectations and wishes from you in regard to this. 

My happiness is bound up with you and y being together as you should be. You have both worked so hard to achieve where you are now. You have sacrificed so much to come to England and I will always be grateful for the love and friendship you have shown for my son, x. Going to bed early, eating healthily looking after his health was naturally supported by me. 

I think very fondly of your family and am deeply saddened to think of a possible broken link with them. We were all so full of hope and happiness for a good future for you both. 

Would it be possible for us to come and visit you in Hitchin? If not at the house but at a place of your choosing so that we can talk about the issues? 

With love and best wishes
Mum x
"


my wife's reply


"Dear z, 

Thank you very much for your email. I understand that you say these things out of your love for you son. However, I would truly appreciate it if you could once be honest to your own heart. 

As I have been in this family for quite a while and I know how you and your family constantly criticise other relatives despite that you appear to be welcoming at the presence of those people. The worst thing is that the criticism was made in front of your children. I am in great fear that such kind of tradition could be carried on to the next generation and the damage could be detrimental. There are many more observations that fear me as well which I do not wish to display. 

In addition, you are the centre power of your household and I can observe your potential and your will of instilling your value system onto other family members. To be frank, I do not want to tread on your value system and how you and your family lead lives, but at the same time I do not want my value system and my way of living to be interfered. 

If the marriage continued, no sooner or later I would tread on your and probably also your daughter's toes. I do not wish to be a family dispute generator. 

Hence, a divorce is the best solution. It will leave everyone in peace. 

Kind regards, 

y "


----------



## LostViking

I saw in your other thread that you have no children. 

Well then it seems a no brainer. Give her the divorce she wants and go find yourself a nice Indian girl your mom will approve of. Your Chinese wife cannot and will not deviate from her cultural imperatives, just as you will never get out from under your mother's thumb.


----------



## zeezack

LostViking said:


> I saw in your other thread that you have no children.
> 
> Well then it seems a no brainer. Give her the divorce she wants and go find yourself a nice Indian girl your mom will approve of. Your Chinese wife cannot and will not deviate from her cultural imperatives, just as you will never get out from under your mother's thumb.


I'm not even living with my parents. My mum's English, my dad's Indian.


----------



## LostViking

zeezack said:


> I'm not even living with my parents. My mum's English, my dad's Indian.


Well then find yourelf a nice English girl. But regardles of whether you live with your mom or not, you are still letting her impede your life and you need to put a stop to it or you will never have any healthy relationships. 

I left the Faroe Islands when I was twenty because I had an overbearing, controlling dad who refused to let me live the life I wanted. I never talked to him again and I have never regretted leaving. Do I miss him? Yes of course, but my spirit would have died had I stayed. I never would have achieved anthing meaningful in my life had I allowed him to run it.


----------



## Openminded

Your wife feels she will never fit in with your family. From what you've posted about her and about your family, I don't disagree with her. So let her go.


----------



## zeezack

Well my wife texted me tonight inviting me to come to the house tomorrow - and has said I can stay the night. 

I am not sure why she wants me to come down or what she wants to talk about.

My mother after that last email is now upset with her. Now I feel like I am the middle of things. I wish my wife would have at least met her in person and discussed her issues assertively. My mother has stated clearly that she doesn't want to see my wife for christmas and boxing day.


----------



## SadandAngry

So where do things stand as far as you are concerned? What have you changed since you last saw her?


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> So where do things stand as far as you are concerned? What have you changed since you last saw her?


Well that I do not know. What has changed since I last saw her.


 I had another Chinese lesson (9/10)
 Had a conversation with my mother, about how she feels slanted by what my wife wrote in her email and how she feels she is a *****. Which is now the first time my mother has said that about her.
 I started a new job for a bank.
 I spoke about relocating to China sooner. I always believed my wife wouldn't want to stay in the UK for over 20-30 years. That some day we try and live/go back to China for some duration. I mentioned maybe looking to support us out there in Hong Kong.


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> Well that I do not know. What has changed since I last saw her.
> 
> 
> I had another Chinese lesson (9/10)
> Had a conversation with my mother, about how she feels slanted by what my wife wrote in her email and how she feels she is a *****. Which is now the first time my mother has said that about her.
> I started a new job for a bank.
> I spoke about relocating to China sooner. I always believed my wife wouldn't want to stay in the UK for over 20-30 years. That some day we try and live/go back to China for some duration. I mentioned maybe looking to support us out there in Hong Kong.


You don't know what you think about your own situation? What I was asking, was how do you feel about how things have gone down since she came home? About her determination to divorce? About her refusal to do anything about that? About her request for half your paycheck for the foreseeable future? Have you contacted a lawyer yet?


----------



## zeezack

*You don't know what you think about your own situation?*
Not really. I get told one thing last monday, another on last thursday, then she kicks the family bucket on Sunday. Upsets my mother more. I'm trying to focus on a new job I just started this week. 


*What I was asking, was how do you feel about how things have gone down since she came home?* 
Well you mean back to her house? Since she came back from China? I was really upset when she told me in mid-August. When she was gone (in China) over september I was in shock/panic/sadness/berevement.

*About her determination to divorce? * 
Its a big cause for concern. She explains mostly in her emails - its the only solution - and then last week monday was talking about possibly continuing the marriage.

*About her refusal to do anything about that?* 
Well I was trying to keep communication just between me and her. Then she emailed my family - which I wish she hadn't - if she does want to consider reconcilation a realistic process. I feel she has done something like this before - where she has wanted to end the relationship, appears to end it, then emails my mother in particular to justify her reasons; then changes her mind and continues the relationship.

*About her request for half your paycheck for the foreseeable future? *
At the moment things are really raw. Its a large sum she asked for. I last asked her about negotiating on this - placing it in a joint account. I don't mind saving large - but not for a free divorce on her behalf.

*Have you contacted a lawyer yet?*
No. I've been given a 2 year count-down, she spoke of a reconcilation last week monday, I started a new job. I have barely found the time to prepare for my new job, pick up my repaired main new computer and fit in other arrangements. It was only on thursday she told me what type of separation she wanted, I was under the impression it was a trial separation until then. Also I have just bought a flat - so still low on money.


----------



## Nsweet

Zeezack, I read a bunch of your posts on here, not all of them though. You're wife is doing the EXACT SAME THING my ex wife did down to the letter. I mean blaming my mom for being controlling (pot calling the kettle black), the same excuses for why she's not wanting to talk to you or try, wanting a divorce after just a few years of marriage. It's scary!

I don't know if anyone has told yet, but I guess I'll have to. 

*YOUR WIFE IS CHEATING ON YOU!!!!!* 

She's been cheating on you for a while, probably since she went to China again, and there's not a whole lot you can do about it. And once you snap out of it you won't want her back I promise. You just can't see it but she's not a good woman. 

Take my word on it. Let her go. She's going to destroy your self confidence and for all of your hard work she's probably going to file false charges of spousal abuse. Since she just has to play the victim in all of this she's going to make you her monster and the OM her night in shining armor. You don't want to go through what I went through, so let her go. You can do better.


----------



## Nsweet

Please tell me you don't have a joint banking account open with her.:slap: 

Like it's not bad enough she took you money and bought herself a house. Buddy If you're not selfish about your money she'll take that from you two in that 2 year grace period she gave herself and it will be perfectly legal. You've got to protect your ass and your assets and not allow her to reach into your back pocket. 

I say if she wants to be divorced, or pretend to be divorced while she sleeps with other people. Then she can do that without access to what you worked hard to save for. Don't make this divorce easy on her, shut her out immediately from contact and finances and file for divorce before she gets the drop on you. 

I guarantee you the way things are going she's going to sweet talk you and then break your heart with divorce papers being served to you without notice. And she'll have your self esteem along with all the power as she dangles promises of reconciliation and hoops for you to jump through until she's gotten all she wants from you right before the court date. 

And remember just because she's Chinese (or could be any other nationality) doesn't mean she act like this. She's, well crazy to be honest. It may not seem like that to you but once you can see the signs of what she's doing you'll see it for yourself. I don't want to put a label on her but I could definitely go with a professional victim and borderline personality disordered waif type.


----------



## zeezack

I have seen no evidence for cheating. She went to china to be with her family - it was a planned visit. She has high morals on cheating in general.

She didn't use my money - she used hers to buy the house. So its all hers. deposit, deeds, mortgage.

I am concerned though about her behavor, feelings, feelings towards me, my family. Her actions are a big cause for concern.


----------



## Nsweet

zeezack said:


> I have seen no evidence for cheating. She went to china to be with her family - it was a planned visit. She has high morals on cheating in general.
> 
> She didn't use my money - she used hers to buy the house. So its all hers. deposit, deeds, mortgage.
> 
> I am concerned though about her behavor, feelings, feelings towards me, my family. Her actions are a big cause for concern.


I know you don't want to hear it right now and are buying into all this useless advice from well meaning people telling you to be more patient, nice, understanding, and make a decision that could isolate you from your family on her behalf. Once again I've seen it all before and live it.

I'm telling you her actions just wave huge red flags for someone who's having an affair, an exit affair to be precise. She's done with you as you can see and she's more than likely entered into a relationship with someone else, but is still keeping you on the side lines as a plan B. 

You wanna know how you can tell. Agree with her and tell her you want this divorce as badly as she does. I guarantee she'll try to nice her way back to you but she's not going to actually do anything serious about reconciliation. It will be just a bunch of words and meaningless tears over the phone. 

It's like I tell others on here. If you agree with the WS and stop finding their decision to leave, the very action that is tied to their ego, they'll stop bashing you. Stop all of this pushing to reconcile, tell her you agree and are just as done as she is, then go dark for a month. If you don't hear from her after then you'll pretty much have your answer. 

But in the mean time you need to stop trying to win her back and get your self confidence back. If you don't she's going toy with you for months if not years until she's finally gone.


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> My mother has stated clearly that she doesn't want to see my wife for christmas and boxing day.


A blessing in disguise! Now you really have to choose.


zeezack said:


> Had a conversation with my mother, about how she {mummy}feels slanted by what my wife wrote in her email and how she {mummy} feels she {wife} is a *****. Which is now the first time my mother has said that about her.


endearing MIL  NOT!!!!!!!!


----------



## SadandAngry

So, here's the thing zeezack. You've been told before in this thread, and you completely ignore the number one thing you need to do. You NEED TO TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR LIFE! YOU! NOT YOUR WIFE, OR YOUR MOTHER, BUT YOU!

You need to stop waiting to see wtf your wife is doing. Nsweet is probably right, there's probably someone else she's lining up. but even if there isn't, wtf are you willing to sit on the sidelines of your life for 2 years waiting for her to file? Do you think she will wait 2 years for you to start giving her your money? Hell no, she wants it now!

But you do not have to adhere to her schedule. She is not acting like a wife. She has abandoned you. You can get your ass to a lawyer today to start the ball rolling. Handing her divorce papers is the best way to find out which story is true. Stop tolerating and enabling this utter nonsense!

Do not alienate your family for this *****. You might have an interfering family, but they love you, and support you. You know that for sure. Who knows wtf is the case with your wife? 

Read your whole thread again zeezack. If you want to know why you're in this situation, it's because you are too passive. You don't speak up or take action when it is needed. That's a choice. Stop making that choice. Your life will improve.


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> A blessing in disguise! Now you really have to choose.
> 
> 
> endearing MIL  NOT!!!!!!!!


The way you worded that; anyhow just keeping you posted. The problem is the way my wife is making me choose. I did say to her all the way back in late June - that I wouldn't mind spending just Christmas with her. She is not even putting that demand onto me.

My wife just seems very distant and happy to be aloof at the moment.


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> So, here's the thing zeezack. You've been told before in this thread, and you completely ignore the number one thing you need to do. You NEED TO TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR LIFE! YOU! NOT YOUR WIFE, OR YOUR MOTHER, BUT YOU!
> 
> You need to stop waiting to see wtf your wife is doing. Nsweet is probably right, there's probably someone else she's lining up. but even if there isn't, wtf are you willing to sit on the sidelines of your life for 2 years waiting for her to file? Do you think she will wait 2 years for you to start giving her your money? Hell no, she wants it now!
> 
> But you do not have to adhere to her schedule. She is not acting like a wife. She has abandoned you. You can get your ass to a lawyer today to start the ball rolling. Handing her divorce papers is the best way to find out which story is true. Stop tolerating and enabling this utter nonsense!
> 
> Do not alienate your family for this *****. You might have an interfering family, but they love you, and support you. You know that for sure. Who knows wtf is the case with your wife?
> 
> Read your whole thread again zeezack. If you want to know why you're in this situation, it's because you are too passive. You don't speak up or take action when it is needed. That's a choice. Stop making that choice. Your life will improve.



I am just taking things step by step.

I went over to the house yesterday - spent the evening there with her to discuss things. I had a meal, slept the night there in the spare room.

She has asked me to come up later today. So I feel she wants us to try things slowly again.

She is very sensitive and it is at times its like walking on thin ice. Currently room for negotiation is short. I've pushed for at least 2-3 days a week for me to stay in London. I will try and create a rotar system that she can agree on. She was on the brink of giving me the rings on this (at 3 days).

A lot of things to consider now

2 mortgages, extra travel costs, small debt, jobs, what to move back to the house.

Fitting in a change of routine etc...

She is still fairly neutral about things, in her feelings towards me. She is not shy to provide her preferences. At the moment she seems like a shadow of her former self.


----------



## zeezack

In her terms, she wants me to live in Hitchin more (5 days a week). Accept her food (not debate its protein content). She doesn't see why I should go to the gym but I said to her - its one of my priorities and will just need to work around that on some days.

I find the change in regime harder to manage, and maybe I am making more compromises than she is (for now), but that is the cost in trying to make things work in our marriage if I want to have children with her.

She wants to ensure I can support a family unit.


----------



## Boricha

Why do you have multiple threads on this same subject? You are not here for advise but to rant.

Your wife has ZERO respect for you. She does not love you. She is toying with you. It's scary how she treats and humiliates you. Not a good person!

Are you proud of the stalker you have become? You are obsessed with her. This behavior is exactly why she is TURNED OFF.

However she used to feel about you has long been gone. The tension between your family and her was created 100% by her. Ask yourself-are you proud of the pathetic,desperate man you have become? 

Is it possible for you to completely cut her out of your life-at least for awhile? Why not divorce and find someone who loves you, respects you and your family? 

Only you know why you can't let her go but it's already a very unhealthy, sick relationship. Nothing left here. But of course, you will just continue to rant. 

Oh don't forget to send half your paycheck to her as she requested.


----------



## zeezack

I do agree with parts of what you have said.

I do believe she has lost respect in me. I don't think she has lost love for me - but questioning her on this is dubious (she is analyzing things differently at the moment)

I don't appreciate some of the ways she treats me - sure. It wasn't always like this.

I'm not stalking her - she is my wife - maybe I am overprotective of the relationship.

I do agree the tension between her and the family is self-generated. 

"Ask yourself-are you proud of the pathetic,desperate man you have become?"

Its called going through a separation - I am not happy about things - but I am not using it as a measure of HOW proud I am, come on.

"Is it possible for you to completely cut her out of your life-at least for awhile? Why not divorce and find someone who loves you, respects you and your family?"

I've been with her 8 years - she was all these things you mentioned, something went wrong last year in particular - she has become disconnected, cold, lost respect for me and the family. Yes I can live on my own in the London flat, and wait for a painful (bereavement of the loss of relationship/dreams) and possibly costly divorce (2 properties).

"Only you know why you can't let her go but it's already a very unhealthy, sick relationship. Nothing left here. But of course, you will just continue to rant."

You don't need to make your 22nd post here if you don't want to. I love my wife, always have and I am trying step by step to see if we can salvage what we had and compromise for a happier future.

"Oh don't forget to send half your paycheck to her as she requested." 

I haven't made any movements on this yet, she is possibly feeling insecure, especially if we start a family - she wants to know I can save, support the family financially.


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> The way you worded that; anyhow just keeping you posted. *The problem is the way my wife is making me choose.*


Zeezack, there was a time in my marriage where I had to confront my my mother and remind her that I am married to my husband and if she doesn't treat him kindly, then she won't be seeing *US* anymore. 

IMO, the problem is that you see your wife as "the problem" and you don't see how over the line intrusive your family is.

When I read your wife's letter which you posted above, I get the impression *she tried extremely hard *to be honest *AND diplomatic*, to the point of having someone better with English go through and correct it to make sure...

I am a MIL (mother in law) and I told you how I would react to a letter like that from my DIL. I would NOT jump to blaming my son's wife "what a *****". I would think I had been a busybody interfering with them and I better back way way off....


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> [*] Had a conversation with my mother, about how she feels slanted by what my wife wrote in her email and how she feels she is a *****. Which is now the first time my mother has said that about her.



 Your mother is projecting IMO.


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> Zeezack, there was a time in my marriage where I had to confront my my mother and remind her that I am married to my husband and if she doesn't treat him kindly, then she won't be seeing *US* anymore.
> 
> IMO, the problem is that you see your wife as "the problem" and you don't see how over the line intrusive your family is.
> 
> When I read your wife's letter which you posted above, I get the impression *she tried extremely hard *to be honest *AND diplomatic*, to the point of having someone better with English go through and correct it to make sure...
> 
> I am a MIL (mother in law) and I told you how I would react to a letter like that from my DIL. I would NOT jump to blaming my son's wife "what a *****". I would think I had been a busybody interfering with them and I better back way way off....


I do tell my family - she is my wife. At first it was only my sister who fell out with her. But that last email my wife sent - has angered my mother over it. My sister and father have held back sending a reply. It has made things tense - and if my wife is willing to reconcile I hope she can take on a less critical lighter approach in the future.

The way my wife acts - silent treatment, non-personal emails putting claim on different values - she involves my family and she just seems non empathetic and overly critical. I just wish she talk to them in person - but she doesn't feel her tone would be any different.

My wife is good at English - she probably just took a little longer to check things over.

I'm heading over again tonight.


----------



## sh987

z: I'm trying to figure out what, in your wife's letter to your mother, has made your mother upset. Any issue your wife has was put with respect. She spoke of the respect she has for your family's value system, and her fears for when she would eventually come into conflict with it. That's it. There was nothing rude or condescending. It was just her take on the situation.

IMO - if your mother's response to the letter has been anger, I can definitely see your wife's point. Merely disagreeing is enough to tick off Mom.

... This is all aside from the fact that this isn't your family's business to agree with. Your wife only wrote your mother because she received a letter which shouldn't have been sent in the first place.


----------



## zeezack

My mum is upset on the following

"I would truly appreciate it if you could once be honest to your own heart." 
My wife does not believe my mum ever had good intentions/love towards her and that my mum is just saying that out of love for me.



and "I have been in this family for quite a while and I know how you and your family constantly criticise other relatives despite that you appear to be welcoming at the presence of those people." 
^ my mum took that a bit harsh. yes it may have happened once but not as constant as its made out.

"you are the centre power of your household and I can observe your potential and your will of instilling your value system onto other family members."
^ don't think that would be seen as objectively.

"Hence, a divorce is the best solution. It will leave everyone in peace."
^ I do feel my wife is being a bit extreme - I would say I have an average family at best - not some gossip engine machine.


----------



## Blonde

Your wife is pointing out how controlling your mum is. I think your wife is right @ that. It would be better if you could see it and be righteously annoyed @ it.

Some men on here have pointed out how they perceive you as being controlled by your wife- she wants you to live where she wants, eat what she wants, go to bed at a decent hour, live with her not in London half the time, etc...

I think you chose a strong woman, very like your mother in some ways, but I don't perceive your wife's wishes as b****y. The food and going to bed together at a decent hour is @ health & physical intimacy, the living together in one house a healthy distance from intrusive family members is what normal married people do. 

If I was giving your wife advice, I'd tell her not to compromise on you staying in the city half the time. That is no way to run a marriage. A husband needs to be home with his wife, not in a bachelor pad in London. Babies are just going to complicate this immensely. She needs you home with her if you want this marriage. 

Sell or rent out the flat. Take the losses. * If your family really cares @ you and your marriage tell em to put their money where their mouth is and bail you out of the flat (after all, her family paid for her house)

*


----------



## SadandAngry

Blonde, do you honestly think that he should sacrifice his relationship with his family for this particular woman at this point? I don't. I think he has been too enmeshed with his family, yes, but I think she is too far gone for him to save this marriage. Too far gone because he did not stand up to his family in the past, to defend his wife, to establish their own identity as a family, to intervene on her behalf when his family crossed the line. Does he need to work on that, sure. Does he need to do it for her? At this point, I think that would just poison his relationship with his family, and she will still leave in the end, so he is left with nothing but a heap of ill will on all sides.


----------



## Blonde

Honestly?

I think they should divorce and Zeezack should get therapy to help him detach from his family and grow up. 

There are no kids and they have immensely complicated the option of continuing the marriage by having two separate properties and the long and ongoing history of family intrusion. But for some reason Z seems quite attached to the messy situation he has constructed... so I have been trying to help him see how it might look through his wife's eyes.


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> Honestly?
> I think they should divorce and Zeezack should get therapy to help him detach from his family and grow up.


I don't think I need therapy to detach myself from my family who live in another county. I am grown up, I try and handle the situation accordingly - not take possession on house keys.



Blonde said:


> There are no kids and they have immensely complicated the option of continuing the marriage by having two separate properties and the long and ongoing history of family intrusion. But for some reason Z seems quite attached to the messy situation he has constructed... so I have been trying to help him see how it might look through his wife's eyes.


- no kids, sure
- yes its more complicated because of 2 properties. (1 my wife bought without me, 1 my wife chose with me - then showed big problems with.)
- I only wanted to get a joint mortgage, with a house chosen jointly - with some of my considerations taken into account.

Unfortunately my wife does not appear to compromise easily, but I am trying to patient.


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> Unfortunately my wife does not appear to *cave * easily, but I am trying to patient.


^^notice my correction

She put up with a lot of what I would call "unacceptable" over the years with you, Zeezack. "Compromising" with you meant she slept on the floor in a bedsit and got verbally abused by your family with you persistently jumping to their defense (not your wife's).

Sounds like she is finally growing a backbone. 

Use your energy for self improvement. Get a driver's license, upgrade your job credentials, get yourself into IC to grow. When I suggested you need to detach from your family, I am referring to emotional detachment. If you were emotionally detached, you wouldn't be phoning up mum & dad with the latest dirt on your marriage (regardless what county they live in).


----------



## Nsweet

Here Zeezack, read this. Abused Men: How Covert Abuse Begins, Part One | Shrink4Men

You're somewhere in the hoovering stage where she's manipulating you with promises to come back in order to gain control over you. All this bullsh!t about your mother being at fault, that's because your mother sees right through her and knows hoe crazy your wife is. If it wasn't your mother but friend she would be saying the same things about them. But she's not coming back!

I promise you Zeezack, the woman you thought you married is dead and gone. How she's acting now is how she really is. And that's not someone who can commit to marriage or accept any of the blame for anything in your relationship, she's got to place all the blame on you, your mother, anything she can make up, and constantly play the victim to a world that ails her.


----------



## Nsweet

Here Zeezack, read this. Abused Men: How Covert Abuse Begins, Part One | Shrink4Men

You're somewhere in the hoovering stage where she's manipulating you with promises to come back in order to gain control over you. All this bullsh!t about your mother being at fault, that's because your mother sees right through her and knows hoe crazy your wife is. If it wasn't your mother but friend she would be saying the same things about them. But she's not coming back!

I promise you Zeezack, the woman you thought you married is dead and gone. How she's acting now is how she really is. And that's not someone who can commit to marriage or accept any of the blame for anything in your relationship, she's got to place all the blame on you, your mother, anything she can make up, and constantly play the victim to a world that ails her.


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> ^^notice my correction
> 
> She put up with a lot of what I would call "unacceptable" over the years with you, Zeezack. "Compromising" with you meant she slept on the floor in a bedsit and got verbally abused by your family with you persistently jumping to their defense (not your wife's).
> 
> Sounds like she is finally growing a backbone.
> 
> Use your energy for self improvement. Get a driver's license, upgrade your job credentials, get yourself into IC to grow. When I suggested you need to detach from your family, I am referring to emotional detachment. If you were emotionally detached, you wouldn't be phoning up mum & dad with the latest dirt on your marriage (regardless what county they live in).


Again Blonde, twisting my words and the events. We used that bedsit to save for a house. At the time I was lower rates and she didn't have a job. I've always tried to defend my wife and see things from her point of view, even if its borderline emotional abuse.

The phrase I would use is not dirt, but update. My wife is part of the family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Nsweet said:


> Here Zeezack, read this. Abused Men: How Covert Abuse Begins, Part One | Shrink4Men
> 
> You're somewhere in the hoovering stage where she's manipulating you with promises to come back in order to gain control over you. All this bullsh!t about your mother being at fault, that's because your mother sees right through her and knows hoe crazy your wife is. If it wasn't your mother but friend she would be saying the same things about them. But she's not coming back!
> 
> I promise you Zeezack, the woman you thought you married is dead and gone. How she's acting now is how she really is. And that's not someone who can commit to marriage or accept any of the blame for anything in your relationship, she's got to place all the blame on you, your mother, anything she can make up, and constantly play the victim to a world that ails her.


I have read something like this - earlier on as passive aggressive behavior.

Well I am at the house again today. Things are a bit better - more connections/smiles from her. She took an interest in helping me revise from the Chinese lessons I've taken. I did tell her that she can't leave the email like that - I didn't say cause my mums upset, or she is banned from christmas etc... I know my wife believes she was being factual, but my mum is a bit sensitive to that kind of thing.

My mum was telling me earlier - you need to leave this woman, I feel like I've lost a son. My mum was asking - why I am not demanding my wife to give an apology.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nsweet

zeezack said:


> I have read something like this - earlier on as passive aggressive behavior.
> 
> Well I am at the house again today. Things are a bit better - more connections/smiles from her. She took an interest in helping me revise from the Chinese lessons I've taken. I did tell her that she can't leave the email like that - I didn't say cause my mums upset, or she is banned from christmas etc... I know my wife believes she was being factual, but my mum is a bit sensitive to that kind of thing.
> 
> My mum was telling me earlier - you need to leave this woman, I feel like I've lost a son. My mum was asking - why I am not demanding my wife to give an apology.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You need to listen to your mom, your family, and your friends about your wife. I know you may not like what they have to say but they have your best interest in mind and can see the things your wife is doing to you. If you're not ready to leave her then go NC and deprogram yourself because you're basically addicted to attention good or bad from her. And your wife just doesn't respect you anymore because of that. 

Why are you going to her for Chinese lessons? Why are you reaching out to her for anything? She's not your friend, she's not trying to help you become better. She's just trying to play nice long enough to work up the courage to leave you. Which will most likely be in January statistically. 

You want her back? Stop wanting her! Go NC and leave her alone for a while. You need to get stop this codependency thing, stop arguing with people on TAM who've been through this, and get tough. I swear to god you're going to get your heart broken if you don't stop doing what you're doing and break up with her. 

And just so you know, I keep coming back to your thread tryon to help you because you're going through the exact same thing I went through. Only my wife was Mexican and pressuring me to learn Spanish, because as I found out later.... the OM spoke fluent Spanish and she was triangulating the both of us for a while. She even pulled the same "just friends" crap during divorce only talking to me when she was lonely when the OM wasn't around, and telling me my mom was the reason she couldn't come back because my mom was mean. NO, my mom was onto her act!


----------



## shy_guy

A Bit Much said:


> If all of that were true ^^^ she wouldn't be in China with her own family and not taking your calls or answering your email.
> 
> I think she was done when she bought the house and you didn't move into it with her. If you're trying to communicate with her and she's shutting you down, it's time to stop, do a 180 and take care of YOU. Give her a time frame to contact you... say 90 days. If she does NOT contact you regarding the state of your relationship, you file papers and get it going.
> 
> A woman that loves you wouldn't do this. She can be mad, she can be hurt, but that love if it's strong and she's committed to you wouldn't keep her from talking to you and trying to work things out. She doesn't love you.


 
I'm going to have to ask if you are familiar with culture shock, or multi-cultural marriages, or with people just going through difficult emotional times due to the additional stresses. It certainly doesn't sound like you are. 

OP, there are a lot of things I read in what you are writing. There are cultural differences in the way families support children even after marriage, the ways in which extended families are viewed in different cultures, and the fact that your wife may have always felt like she was in a disadvantaged position with your family because she feels like she stands out so much ... and becomes sensitive. It sounds like it is all coming to a head.

My wife went through a time where she wanted to leave me around our 9th anniversary. (We're coming up on our 29th anniversary now). this coincided with her father contracting stomach cancer, and slowly spiralling downward until he died. She was separated by 6000 miles from him at the time, and felt helpless. It produced a crisis in her - she desperately wanted to be with her family. When we were able to pull together enough for me to send her to be with her family for a month, she decided while she was there that she wanted to stay. Her sisters talked to her and told her she had to come and talk to me face to face before she made that final, so she returned. Her father died when she came back (but I'm glad she got to see him while he was alive, rather than us waiting for his funeral), and she spiralled into deep, deep depression that in her case, lasted almost a year and required medical help for her to pull out. 

My wife is very sensitive that my family didn't accept her, and from my vantage point, it was a combination of a competition that a wife sometimes feels with her husband's mother, and many cultural challenges where they never really learned to relate to each other. Both honestly tried and I could see the efforts (often misunderstood) that both sides made, but that kind of adaptation is almost a full time pursuit, so neither of them really adjusted fully to the other - certainly not the way my wife and I have adjusted to each other.

You're in a crisis position right now, and so is your wife from what I can read. I think it may require some face to face time, re-learning what is really happening in each other's minds, and what the cause of the crisis is ... and there is probably more than one cause. It's more likely it is an accumulation of things that have not been adequately dealt with along the way. I know you want a quick, immediate resolution, or at least an assurance, but there isn't one. What I can say is that answers like "She doesn't love you" are flippant and do not reflect a full understanding of the situation, nor of the possibilties or dynamics at work here.

Multi-cultural marriages have their own set of challenges. Mine is great, and I wouldn't trade my wife for anything, but I know there are additional challenges.


----------



## shy_guy

I see I jumped in on an old thread and resolution or not, the OP has likely long since moved on, or the situation has likely developed since that time.

I don't want to be mean, but honestly, honestly, sometimes I read through these threads, and I can't help but wonder if this site does more damage than good. There are a few pat answers that so many want to give without considering the dynamics in different relationships. I think a person must seriously consider who the person is that is giving the advice on a site like this, and consider the person's success or lack of it ... and how does someone even evaluate that on an anonymous site? ... Okay, Sorry for jumping in on an old thread.


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> Your wife is pointing out how controlling your mum is. I think your wife is right @ that. It would be better if you could see it and be righteously annoyed @ it.
> 
> Some men on here have pointed out how they perceive you as being controlled by your wife- she wants you to live where she wants, eat what she wants, go to bed at a decent hour, live with her not in London half the time, etc...
> 
> I think you chose a strong woman, very like your mother in some ways, but I don't perceive your wife's wishes as b****y. The food and going to bed together at a decent hour is @ health & physical intimacy, the living together in one house a healthy distance from intrusive family members is what normal married people do.
> 
> If I was giving your wife advice, I'd tell her not to compromise on you staying in the city half the time. That is no way to run a marriage. A husband needs to be home with his wife, not in a bachelor pad in London. Babies are just going to complicate this immensely. She needs you home with her if you want this marriage.
> 
> Sell or rent out the flat. Take the losses. * If your family really cares @ you and your marriage tell em to put their money where their mouth is and bail you out of the flat (after all, her family paid for her house)
> 
> *


My mother is not calling my wife a ***** on the well meaning wishes my wife is proposing (food, bed etc..). She found her last email hurtful (declining a face to face talk, critical analysis of the family unit, refusal to believe her love for my wife was genuine).

As I said before Blonde. My wife went ahead and bought this property. I was given permission to buy the flat - and as I have said countless times with my wife - that the nature, location, hours of my work can be extreme and random. Another issue is the house essentially is going to become too small and the future of the house etc.. has not been discussed.

I can't rent the flat out yet - as I have just bought it. I just bought the flat for the purpose of work to support the family unit.

What I would like to do - in the future is rent/sell the flat and the house - and buy 1 big home, closer to the city, where we both agree, jointly with each of our names on it like most things are done.

My family care for me - but they don't have the resources/budget to help me financially like her family did.


----------



## zeezack

Nsweet said:


> You need to listen to your mom, your family, and your friends about your wife. I know you may not like what they have to say but they have your best interest in mind and can see the things your wife is doing to you. If you're not ready to leave her then go NC and deprogram yourself because you're basically addicted to attention good or bad from her. And your wife just doesn't respect you anymore because of that.
> 
> Why are you going to her for Chinese lessons? Why are you reaching out to her for anything? She's not your friend, she's not trying to help you become better. She's just trying to play nice long enough to work up the courage to leave you. Which will most likely be in January statistically.
> 
> You want her back? Stop wanting her! Go NC and leave her alone for a while. You need to get stop this codependency thing, stop arguing with people on TAM who've been through this, and get tough. I swear to god you're going to get your heart broken if you don't stop doing what you're doing and break up with her.
> 
> And just so you know, I keep coming back to your thread tryon to help you because you're going through the exact same thing I went through. Only my wife was Mexican and pressuring me to learn Spanish, because as I found out later.... the OM spoke fluent Spanish and she was triangulating the both of us for a while. She even pulled the same "just friends" crap during divorce only talking to me when she was lonely when the OM wasn't around, and telling me my mom was the reason she couldn't come back because my mom was mean. NO, my mom was onto her act!


Yes I do listen to my family and friends and can understand what they are saying. But I am not going to make decisions based on that. I have known my wife for nearly 9 years and well - the advice throughout what my family/friends/internet say are logical/reasonable explanations they do not add up to the exact summation of my wife's problems/behavior.

I'm her first boyfriend - and that was when she was 26. She is now 34 and is getting worried about her age for having children. I realize this and I do love my wife - and although I am younger and in a position to do no contact/live a bachelor life/ignore my wife's bad behavior/waste 2 years - I know that is not what I want to do - and I suspect - as always - that my wife doesn't really want to get divorced, end the marriage, date other men, she wants security, children, assurance I can help support new additions to the family.

My wife has complicated issues, but I am doing my best to work around/compromise around them because I love her.

Yesterday - she helped me with my Chinese lesson revision. I also learned/watched how she prays.


----------



## zeezack

I feel I am doing the right thing - sticking by my wife - despite what appears controlling/emotionally abusive. Its sad and bad we experienced this for the last few months. But I do feel my wife really just wanted more "us" time. Its a shame she has shot herself in the foot a bit, and is stubborn to not provide a humble apology for things just to keep the peace.


----------



## Nsweet

Tell me in what way is this anything like the 180? Are you even listening to the helpful words and advise of people who have been through divorce or successful reconciliations? I don't think you are. You seem to be arguing more than you are listening, taking notes, and loving yourself instead of fawning over the memory of your wife.


----------



## zeezack

I had followed the 180 to some degree - for the last 4 months or so.

In July-mid August - I was mostly just on my own - my wife had not said we are going through a separation - she was saying she was just busy with work.

Then she told me in mid-August, then was in China for the entire month of September. She resumed the separation from October-early December.

So for a long duration I have just been focusing on my life etc... but I still had raw feelings about it all.

Even now - I don't really understand what happened. My wife claims its due to a large amount of small things. I think its mostly down to me not making the effort to live with her during the week + the negative feedback from my family in March.


----------



## Nsweet

Ok, 

Number one: The reason she says she wants this divorce is not the real reason, it's never the real reason. I think she's cheating on you because... well... I heard those same exact words and phrases from my cheating ex wife. First it was "I don't love you anymore", then it was" everything is all your fault" and then finally it was all that bullsh!t about "you're mother is the problem".

And Number two: you did not do the 180, or if you did you did something wrong. If you would just take a step back and look at yourself you're being pretty pathetic. You're rationalizing away or minimizing things your wife did to you to and your family and you're so wrapped up in her you're not even living your life anymore. You're so focused on this reconciliation, get this, you're so focus on reconciling that you're not even becoming a man she would want to return to. You're basically sucking up to her and begging her to come back, and then when she says no you're arguing with her decision to leave. 

What did I tell you man, don't even argue with her just agree on this divorce and she'll turn things around. Once you stop all that pressuring and arguing and seem happy about doing things their way it completely takes the fight out of the angry wayward wife and brings the friend she used to be back. But the only thing about this is you can't ever change your mind and try to pressure her again or she won't trust you or want to talk to about reconciling again. I'm telling you, 2-3 months of you going NC or LC out of 2 years is nothing. And follow the 180 to the letter, don't try to bend the rules or it won't work.


----------



## SaltInWound

Some observations, and I apologize in advance if it is harsh.

Do you notice how you see her in a positive light and she sees you in a negative? The attention you give her is in no way trying to make her change who she is. You are not critical unless you are trying to stand up for yourself in how she views you. However, when it comes to her focus on you, it is about changing you. Don't eat this, eat that. Don't exercise. Stay there, sleep here. She is very critical of you. She is giving you attention right now that is positive, but it is because the focus is on her....her language and her praying. 

What does she do to understand YOUR culture better? Have you told her that in your culture, the way she addresses you is rude? How has she tried to understand there is a thing called compromise in your culture? Has she once come to you and asked for you to help her learn something about you so that she can be more like you and as a result. you can like her better? My guess is no, because you are willing to take her anyway you can get her, because you love her and don't want to lose her.

You post her demands of you. Demands. Do this, don't do that. Live here, don't stay there. She wants to make a sex schedule. People who give the silent treatment have control issues. 

You say on more than one occasion, "She allowed me....". Why do you use the word allow? Perhaps because you don't feel her equal. Tell me. Was she ALLOWED to buy that house? Is there anything she has done where she felt she needed your approval first? 

Ever wonder why you were her first boyfriend at such an older age? Why she married the first guy who came along? If she is so caught up in her culture, and pointed out to you the standards for a Chinese man to have a wife and how you did not measure up, why did she choose you?


----------



## zeezack

SaltInWound said:


> Some observations, and I apologize in advance if it is harsh.
> 
> Do you notice how you see her in a positive light and she sees you in a negative? The attention you give her is in no way trying to make her change who she is. You are not critical unless you are trying to stand up for yourself in how she views you. However, when it comes to her focus on you, it is about changing you. Don't eat this, eat that. Don't exercise. Stay there, sleep here. She is very critical of you. She is giving you attention right now that is positive, but it is because the focus is on her....her language and her praying.
> 
> What does she do to understand YOUR culture better? Have you told her that in your culture, the way she addresses you is rude? How has she tried to understand there is a thing called compromise in your culture? Has she once come to you and asked for you to help her learn something about you so that she can be more like you and as a result. you can like her better? My guess is no, because you are willing to take her anyway you can get her, because you love her and don't want to lose her.
> 
> You post her demands of you. Demands. Do this, don't do that. Live here, don't stay there. She wants to make a sex schedule. People who give the silent treatment have control issues.
> 
> You say on more than one occasion, "She allowed me....". Why do you use the word allow? Perhaps because you don't feel her equal. Tell me. Was she ALLOWED to buy that house? Is there anything she has done where she felt she needed your approval first?
> 
> Ever wonder why you were her first boyfriend at such an older age? Why she married the first guy who came along? If she is so caught up in her culture, and pointed out to you the standards for a Chinese man to have a wife and how you did not measure up, why did she choose you?


I understand what you are saying. You see back in 2011 April (when she came into England after getting the marriage visa), things were better in our relationship - we both lived in the same place. When she bought the house in 2012 July - it became her place - as she did not give me a key straight away, most to all of her stuff is now there. 

I use words at the moment like allowed - because she had initiated a separation - if I ran up to the house - (she may not let me in - but she has never done that) or demand that I leave.

I am trying to strike a balance myself with her - I had planned and always knew that I would need to spend more time with her at the house - during the week. Up from the point she bought the place in July 2012 - I really only came up during the weekends. I have no complaint with the food she cooks (except in the past its protein content cause I bodybuild) and if living there I can't stay up too late (due to its location/catching the train etc..)

But I have tried to put my needs - for staying in London - due to gym, workload and other social activities. - At the moment is very sensitive to this - because as in the past I would not be at the house enough.


----------



## zeezack

Nsweet said:


> Ok,
> 
> Number one: The reason she says she wants this divorce is not the real reason, it's never the real reason. I think she's cheating on you because... well... I heard those same exact words and phrases from my cheating ex wife. First it was "I don't love you anymore", then it was" everything is all your fault" and then finally it was all that bullsh!t about "you're mother is the problem".
> 
> And Number two: you did not do the 180, or if you did you did something wrong. If you would just take a step back and look at yourself you're being pretty pathetic. You're rationalizing away or minimizing things your wife did to you to and your family and you're so wrapped up in her you're not even living your life anymore. You're so focused on this reconciliation, get this, you're so focus on reconciling that you're not even becoming a man she would want to return to. You're basically sucking up to her and begging her to come back, and then when she says no you're arguing with her decision to leave.
> 
> What did I tell you man, don't even argue with her just agree on this divorce and she'll turn things around. Once you stop all that pressuring and arguing and seem happy about doing things their way it completely takes the fight out of the angry wayward wife and brings the friend she used to be back. But the only thing about this is you can't ever change your mind and try to pressure her again or she won't trust you or want to talk to about reconciling again. I'm telling you, 2-3 months of you going NC or LC out of 2 years is nothing. And follow the 180 to the letter, don't try to bend the rules or it won't work.


- I don't think she is cheating. : my wife is against such things
- She didn't say - I don't love you anymore, just gives me some twisted version of love which is almost generic - she says its not about love etc... 
- She has had issues with my family since July 2012 in particular - when she bought the house in Hitchin
- I did try and do the 180 - I would leave her be, do my own thing. But then I would be asked to come up and meet her - and I felt obliged to do so - to a) understand the issues b) discuss separation/divorce proceedings if that is what she wanted.
- "look at yourself you're being pretty pathetic" - cheers - Its called going through separation/divorce and its an emotional time for me. Sorry if I don't stand up on top at all instances and look like a coward to my wife. It is concerning me - not knowing/knowing if I am in a relationship with my 34 year old wife who was looking to have kids - time is not on her side. Even if this separation is her own doing, even if she is kicking around the family bucket - I am trying to bring her back from the brink because I do not want to divorce her, go over legal assets to two properties, wait 2 years with a pseudo relationship about to end.
- nc is not even something that seems to work with her - she seems strong minded not to call/email or anything.
- besides all this she looks to be in a reconciliation mode herself - so why should I now block contact with her. I've not forgotten what she has done, but if we are going to get back, got to move slowly and in the right directions - she has to know her own mistakes, as do I need to know mine (at least what she thinks they are).


----------



## SaltInWound

zeezack said:


> - She has had issues with my family since July 2012 in particular - when she bought the house in Hitchin


Marriage improvement and marriage visa in 2011? 
Marriage decline/sudden family problems and house purchase in 2012? 

Are these coincidences?


----------



## SadandAngry

SaltInWound said:


> Marriage improvement and marriage visa in 2011?
> Marriage decline/sudden family problems and house purchase in 2012?
> 
> Are these coincidences?


Probably not. Neither is the waiting period she has imposed, I'd wager. That's why Zeezack needs to see a lawyer yesterday. What time marker is his wife waiting to reach prior to filing? What entitlement will that give her?


----------



## Nsweet

This guy just doesn't get it, or anything anyone has been trying to post that would help him. *He just won't listen unless you're telling him how he can do the same thing he's doing with to changes necessary to reconcile with what is looking more and more like a green card marriage.* I'm out!

You wonder why none of the same posters from your first couple of posts on here have come back. It's because you don't listen or take anything people who have gone through this with any consideration. You're just going to keep kissing up to her and she's going to leave you anyways.


----------



## scatty

She used you for a VISA,

If you get her pregnant, demand a DNA test and pat yourself on the back, as you will have to pay heavily for 18-21 years while she does everything on her power (like moving to China) to prevent you from seeing your kid.

Don't forget to update in a year or two to thank us random forum users who know more about your wife than you do.

You're welcome!


----------



## zeezack

I've known my wife for 9 years. I do not believe she was in it for the long con ok. Some of the latest posts just show a lack of respect and emotional intelligence to the situation.

She already has her ILR visa, so she is not dependant on being with me for that. I don't think she takes becoming a single mother lightly either.

I am meeting up with her tomorrow - we are planning to visit my Aunty/Grandma.

A) I do not want to divorce her, b) I do not have the current finds to see a lawyer, c) it appears I am on a road to reconciliation with her, d) if she turns round again and says she wants a divorce in 2 years - well then we have to break and plan again and prep for an upcoming divorce.

So thank you for the advice on this forum, but please don't feel I will just march down to a lawyer based on your bold emphasised posts and destroy my 9 year relationship with this woman.


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> What time marker is his wife waiting to reach prior to filing? What entitlement will that give her?


On a sour note - if she was wanting to still divorce - waiting 2 years could mean she may obtain a greater yield of the assets - potentially more of my future earnings, plus more paid off mortgage on the properties.

So yes - in essence if a divorce is still looming, trying to get it done and dusted could save me money - perhaps. Given she had initiated a separation mid-August to late Nov, and now we appear to be on a path of reconciliation where she has opened up communications etc... and is making the move herself to plan a family visit - I will keep on hold of going off and finding a lawyer yesterday.


----------



## shy_guy

Nsweet said:


> Tell me in what way is this anything like the 180? Are you even listening to the helpful words and advise of people who have been through divorce or successful reconciliations? I don't think you are. You seem to be arguing more than you are listening, taking notes, and loving yourself instead of fawning over the memory of your wife.


 
Let me jump in here and say something to the guys who continue this one-note symphony on here:

The 180 is a PAT ANSWER. It is not a one-size fits all for every relationship on here despite how much is it pushed as such. Like all pat answers, it is very often cited on this site as a substitute for thinking. It may work for some situations, but as I said, it is not a one size fits all, and I think in many situations, it is destructive, conceited, arrogant, or I may go so far as to say: Total BS. 

Things aren't this simple, and people aren't all the same. Neither is culture, and in cases like this one, I read so many cultural issues that some people ask honest question about, but others totally ignore and go to the pat answers instead of thinking. 

I don't care who has written what book or article or method. None of them should be read or followed while disengaging the brain. This is a point I wish was better understood by people not just on this site, but elsewhere in life as well. 

The decisions on whether or not to stay belong to the OP, and to him alone. From there, a person can decide whether or not to continue to engage with the OP, and those decisions should be made based on whether or not the person continues to relate to the situation, has any understanding of the situation, or continues to have the energy or interest to engage in the situation, but certainly, the level of angst I'm reading from some (not pointing a finger at you with this statement) because he isn't following their advice seems silly to me. 

If you read the "Long Term Success" board, there are threads where you can read that everybody who has been married for a long term has had at least one crisis that has put them near separation or divorce, or to a point where nobody except them considered there was any chance of their relationship surviving. In such times, I think one partner or the other has to make an extraordinary effort if he/she wants it to continue. It's not always balanced and equal during those times. I'm certain that not every marriage where this type of effort is made survives, but some do. So long as the OP is willing and able to continue to fight for his marriage, I don't see anybody having any reason to be upset with him.

And PLEASE SOMEBODY ON THIS FRICKING SITE *THINK* a little deeper than "Man up" or "180" please! My GOSH!!! It makes me want to PUKE!!!


----------



## Nsweet

Shy_Guy, I get where you're coming from I really do. You have a Chinese wife like he does. I was in an interracial marriage with a Mexican woman myself and there were a lot of cultural differences between us. You like to push for reconciliation as much as I do and would normally in slightly different situations, but your advise and the advise of other well meaning individuals is more hurtful to Zeezack than anything else. You've reconciled and saved your marriage to a good woman, you didn't get burned and you just can't understand what that's like. 

By telling him to 180, which you just jumped onto as a blanket statement instead of reading many of my explanations, I was trying to get him to understand the place he is currently in is fostering codependency and wishful thinking for reconciliation. Despite all of this I do want to see things work out for him, but at the rate of which he's going he needs to stop needing his wife so she can have a chance to miss him when he's not there. 

And you seem to have your blinders on for a lot of what he's saying. Things that ring out as big red flags to Bandit, SaltInWound, and I as well as many others who have tried to add their helpful advice her but were shot down by Zeezack. People who have been through a lot of heartache and getting used by cheating spouses who toyed with them offering reconciliation and then left for good. You just won't understand these things until you've been there yourself, been used by the court system, been to MC and had every problem real or imagined thrown at you, and rejected everything you didn't want to hear until it was too late. 

You wonder why this thread got to 20+ pages and no one from the first few pages is still here? Zeezack doesn't listen so those who've been through what he went through with some sage advice to offer don't even bother with him anymore. It doesn't make me sick it makes me really sad for Zeezack and what he's about to go through.


----------



## shy_guy

Nsweet said:


> Shy_Guy, I get where you're coming from I really do. You have a Chinese wife like he does. I was in an interracial marriage with a Mexican woman myself and there were a lot of cultural differences between us. You like to push for reconciliation as much as I do and would normally in slightly different situations, but your advise and the advise of other well meaning individuals is more hurtful to Zeezack than anything else. You've reconciled and saved your marriage to a good woman, you didn't get burned and you just can't understand what that's like.


My wife is actually Korean, but I don't want to split hairs. (Korean vs. Chinese isn't splitting hairs, but what I'm saying is that I recognize that is your lead in and not the point you are making.)



Nsweet said:


> By telling him to 180, which you just jumped onto as a blanket statement instead of reading many of my explanations, I was trying to get him to understand the place he is currently in is fostering codependency and wishful thinking for reconciliation. Despite all of this I do want to see things work out for him, but at the rate of which he's going he needs to stop needing his wife so she can have a chance to miss him when he's not there.
> 
> And you seem to have your blinders on for a lot of what he's saying. Things that ring out as big red flags to Bandit, SaltInWound, and I as well as many others who have tried to add their helpful advice her but were shot down by Zeezack. People who have been through a lot of heartache and getting used by cheating spouses who toyed with them offering reconciliation and then left for good. You just won't understand these things until you've been there yourself, been used by the court system, been to MC and had every problem real or imagined thrown at you, and rejected everything you didn't want to hear until it was too late.


While there is value in that, my point is that the decision, and ownership of that decision rests with the OP. There is no reason to get upset, and continue to make assumptions (which I have read) and assign motives to his wife. The truth is, his wife is not the woman you were abused by, and she is not my wife. I cannot see or read her and neither can you. It's up to him to decide what he is going to do, and he owns that decision. So in that context, I'm much more in favor of asking and determining what the person really wants to do, and discussing that than I am in deciding that his wife is using him for a green card or immigration purposes (which is a complete trigger line to many people with experience outside of western europe and the US, btw - throwing that line to someone with different motivations from outside of that context is throwing gasoline onto a fire, and likely needlessly so). 

I don't much like advice I guess. I don't think you nor I either one have the power to convince OP of what he needs to do, and if we approach the conversation like that, then I think we can be much more productive. 



Nsweet said:


> You wonder why this thread got to 20+ pages and no one from the first few pages is still here? Zeezack doesn't listen so those who've been through what he went through with some sage advice to offer don't even bother with him anymore. It doesn't make me sick it makes me really sad for Zeezack and what he's about to go through.


Or ... maybe some people I read realize their first idea didn't consider some of the other dynamics. I read some genuine questions in the first few pages that were genuinely answered by people with first-hand knowledge of his wife's culture such as Green Pearl, and after that, they have not answered again. Others realize they only have a certain amount of energy to expend and maybe they've spent that. Others may realize that the decision belongs to the OP, and the advice is not taken, and they're not going to be upset. But after 20 pages, there are still some that are convinced they understand his wife's motives, and are convinced that what their ideas are must be followed and if they are not, then the OP will wind up like they were. But the OP's wife is not your wife, not the other advisor's wives, and not my wife. None of us can expect her to respond the way our wives would, nor can we expect that she is motivated by the same things our wives are motivated by.

So in my case, I can relate something from my experience, but in the end, it becomes an exercise in finding what the OP really wants to do, maybe relating our experience in that area, maybe giving something that we think may be helpful, but all of us need to recognize that point I said from the beginning: He owns the decision. He owns the risk. Maybe it will work out, but nobody can guarantee that. Likewise, nobody can guarantee he is being worked over by his wife. If he wants to work out cultural issues, then let's talk about cultural issues or move on and leave it to people who want to help him work through cultural issues. If he is not sure what is cultural and what is individual, then we can help relate to that as we can, but even there, the final interpretation is his. There is no need to start telling him his wife is using him for immigration purposes which is stated very clearly by some in this thread. The honest truth is, none of us know whether she is or is not, or if there is something else involved, and his wife is not on this thread for us to enquire about those things, so we can't make any kind of relevant determination at all.

What I hear from the first few pages is people completely missing cultural factors which I HAVE dealt with, and telling the OP that a woman who loves him would never do the things he is describing. I think it is fortunate that that particular poster is no longer spending energy in this thread. And we can continue ... 

But to my point: The OP owns the decision, and 100% of the risk that he decides to take. What we can do is relate our experience, or support, or move on. 

Does that clarify my viewpoint?


----------



## shy_guy

ZZ, I’ve read through as much of the thread as I have time for. I’m not trying to be flippant when I say that. I’m simply stating that I’m trying to understand as much as I can, but I have limited time. Please excuse me if I have missed something. As I made clear in my rant against some of the posters above, I’m not going to even try to tell you what to do, but here is what I see that I’d like to point out. 

First, I think Blonde has a lot of good perspective, and I think if you would back up and read those words, and look at it from your wife’s perspective, you would probably see that.

I really think you need to evaluate the priorities you place on your family vs. your wife. Things I read include that you were having marital problems, but couldn’t see to them because your father was in the hospital and later lost his foot. Now that one is a tough one, I’ll admit, but from the point of view of someone who is in your country with no other family, who is married to you and having problems that need resolution, what you did was choose someone else over her. I would think that message came through to her pretty clearly. Now if you have a lot of emotional currency stored in your account with her, that may be okay, but if she is already struggling and feeling that your family occupies the place in your heart that should rightfully be hers, that’s going to be a big issue.

When I read what you say about your family, and your wife, I always see you saying that your wife started it with her attitude, etc. I personally think you may be at the trunk and not at the root with the thinking I have read. This of this a little deeper:

You said you like her family, so I’m going to assume you have been in their home. When you were there, how well were you able to communicate with them? Did you have times, for instance, when you were speaking, and because they didn’t understand what you were saying, they cut you off and started on something else? Or possibly when everybody gets excited, plays, and discusses as families do, when maybe they were talking over each other, did they also talk over you? And was there any way on earth you could have competed with them communication wise in that situation? That is the situation your wife is going to be in in your family’s household. Even if her English is good (I’m assuming English is the language spoken in your parents’ house), there is no way she can compete communication wise, so feeling excluded is going to be something that happens. If she already is to the point of feeling excluded and people talk over her when she starts to say something, you have to understand how that is going to be interpreted. If she is one who handles this by withdrawing and going and taking on tasks she might be comfortable with (like kitchen tasks, for instance), that may be just a way for her to get into a more comfortable situation, but if that is then seen (by your family) as something she should be doing, I would think the situation would only be aggravated. I’m spinning this narrative because it is one I know very well.

Now take it further: Your family is doing a lot of communicating with you. Do they ever communicate with your wife? It doesn’t sound like it. Your family is probably thinking they talk to you because it is easier and may even use reasons like “I’m afraid I can’t understand her on the phone.” But what this type of thing does is further isolate and exclude someone who is already struggling to find a place in a family, and someone who wants security, but cannot find it. Take it further, and it when she seems to bring it to a head, it may actually be a cry to you to actually stand up for her and make her feel secure. She needs to feel secure – you are her ONLY family, and you seem to have other priorities over her. I can see this as being very uncomfortable for her.

I think at some point, you’re going to have to stop defending your family to your wife. I also think to help her feel secure, you may have to be willing to acknowledge your family’s intrusion at least into your wife’s feelings, and back them off. Make it very clear to your family that even if your wife is a *****, she’s your *****, and by golly you’re going to stand by her as your wife. (That may not be the best way for your wife to hear that – depends on her personality. I say that because that’s very close to what would be said with MY personality) If they don’t like it, they don’t have to come over and visit, and you won’t bring your wife over to visit them. If they want to come over to visit you, then your wife will be there, though, so they need to make sure they’re okay with that. If your wife is as desperately in need of security in your emotions as it sounds like she is, then give her that type of emotional security – let her know, or even let her be there when you do that. 

If you work it out with your family for visits, then gauge your wife’s tolerance. Remember she cannot compete for communication space, and either make sure she gets that, or make sure she doesn’t have to stay beyond her tolerance level. In those times when your wife is talking to you, and everybody is excited and talking over everybody else, as much as possible, make sure it is your wife who has your attention when she wants to talk. Whatever the specifics of the situation, make sure you establish the security for your wife so she doesn’t feel like she is displaced by your family. 

When she talks about your father being westernized, that just screams to me to be the stage of culture shock that I refer to as “Frustration” in the progression of honeymoon, disillusionment, frustration, gradual adjustment … and periods of frustration often pop up well into the gradual adjustment stage. Can you hear this as frustration and culture adjustment on her part and help her with this? Moving to China (as you suggested you would be willing to do) is likely going to shift this adjustment from her to you. That may be an option, but just keep in mind that someone has to go through that adjustment. I think when both of you understand it, and understand that it is natural, and are willing to support each other in that, then it becomes easier to get through that adjustment. However; be realistic on the adjustment. She may become westernized, but she grew up in China and is Chinese. You may take her out of China, but you are NEVER going to take China out of her. If you are successful, I imagine you will adjust to a cultural stable point in your home that will involve elements of your culture, and of hers as well. 

As I read it, the house is a rather complex issue. It wasn’t handled very wisely by her, but neither has it been handled very wisely by you, IMO. As much as I hate generalizations, if I may be forgiven one here: I think a house is more important to most women than it is to most men, and I think it is to the point that if you want a wife, you need to be willing to provide that house for her, and maybe make some sacrifices to make sure it is provided. It is likely it is much more important to her than it is to you. The situation is complicated for you, now, but probably not something that can’t be overcome if both of you want the marriage to work. Just recognize you have to make that a priority if you want her. Of course, if you don’t want her, then you walk away and leave her with her house – I can’t make you do anything here. 

But IMO, the biggest thing is that you have to provide her security in your relationship. That means telling your family to back off and that she is your concern and not theirs, making sure she knows that she takes priority over your family in your life, and that needs to be done in words (tell her, and tell her how … ) and in deeds (When she has needs and your family has needs, she is your priority. Make sure you have the emotional currency in the account of your relationship so that when exceptional cases occur with your family, you can draw a bit from that account to take care of the exceptional need with your family, but you need to build up that account with your wife). 

Many of your wife’s demands for you getting back together sound to me like her trying to establish a secure place for herself. She has a life, and concerns, and dreams, and just like many people are telling you “180” she probably has people telling her she needs to take care of herself. That’s even what leads to one of the practices of stashing that women of many Asian cultures have (only one reason, there are very good other reasons where that is considered virtuous). 

It sounds like you want to be together. From what I can tell, it sounds like your wife also wants to be together, but is very skeptical of her place with you, and is not sure it can meet the dreams she has for her life. It sounds like you have a lot of work to do if you make it work. I’m not going to say it’s impossible, but it sounds like it will be difficult. If it’s what you want, then I hope you make it work. 


Best wishes.


----------



## zeezack

Thank you Shy guy. We did go to my Aunty's today. Saw my grandma. My grandma was very happy to see her. My wife really accepts my Indian side of the family. They were trying to explain to her that all couples have a falling out. But the way my wife tried to explain is it seems far more rooted to potentially loosing ground/influence from my mother and sister. I am still not sure what she intends to do. But for now I am staying in the house for most of the time at the moment. But my wife is still not sure she will be there for christmas and did try and excuse herself from boxing day (we spend it at my Aunty's - both my aunty and grandma invited her and encouraged her to come). I can not really list my wife's concerns, but there are things that my mother and sister have done that she does not welcome culturally and fears almost to thr brink of paranoia it would get transported to the next generation. I am trying to be patient, but my wife is particularly cold with small pockets of enjoying my company. She was never a cuddly/lovey dovey type. At times I feel emotionally depleted/unsatisfied but I will try and stand by her on whatever final decision she makes (if its just before or after christmas when she has said her say in front of my mum and sister). It is hard both my mum and sister now don't want to see her. My dad says the same but I think he just doesn't want the stress. I have asked my wife to do something about it, maybe she will talk to them in person, but for now I don't know when that will happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## shy_guy

zeezack said:


> Thank you Shy guy. We did go to my Aunty's today. Saw my grandma. My grandma was very happy to see her. My wife really accepts my Indian side of the family. They were trying to explain to her that all couples have a falling out. But the way my wife tried to explain is it seems far more rooted to potentially loosing ground/influence from my mother and sister. I am still not sure what she intends to do. But for now I am staying in the house for most of the time at the moment. *But my wife is still not sure she will be there for christmas and did try and excuse herself from boxing day (we spend it at my Aunty's - both my aunty and grandma invited her and encouraged her to come).*
> 
> I can not really list my wife's concerns, but there are things that my mother and sister have done that she does not welcome culturally and fears almost to thr brink of paranoia it would get transported to the next generation. I am trying to be patient, but my wife is particularly cold with small pockets of enjoying my company. She was never a cuddly/lovey dovey type. At times I feel emotionally depleted/unsatisfied but I will try and stand by her on whatever final decision she makes (if its just before or after christmas when she has said her say in front of my mum and sister). It is hard *both my mum and sister now don't want to see her. My dad says the same but I think he just doesn't want the stress.* I have asked my wife to do something about it, maybe she will talk to them in person, but for now I don't know when that will happen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Let me ask a few clarifying questions here, and give a few thoughts based on what I think the answers will be. It sounds like you are planning to go to your mom's house for Christmas, and have asked your wife, but is sounds like your wife has specifically been dis-invited. How do you expect that to work out? It seems like you have a "Best case scenario" in mind that you think will work out, but I can see a lot of potential downside to this and not much potential upside.

The biggest concern is that the house is your mom's house, and she has disinvited your wife. Why not respect your mom's house?

You have asked your wife to fix this, but why fix this at this point? Your wife's relationship to your mother, father, and sister is only relevant if you have a wife. It seems to me that this is what is in doubt at this point, so why ask your wife to fix this at this point?

I see an alternative that I think has more potential long-term upside for you if you really want to continue with your wife:

Why not tell your family that you will not be able to join them this holiday season. Tell them you have issues you need to work on this holiday season, and whatever you do in this, *don't* blame it on your wife - take 100% responsibility in front of your family for declining, and never even mention your wife's name or your plans. Then, offer your wife a holiday time with just the two of you. Find something the two of you would enjoy doing. Maybe that could be spending the days alone at her house celebrating in a way that she would enjoy, or maybe that would be the two of you taking an excursion out of town if you can afford that. Whatever it is, make it a holiday with just the two of you. 

The upside I can see to this is that it communicates to your wife in a tangible way that you have put her above your family, and those traditions. It also establishes your independence to your family. I think if your wife is not secure about her place in your heart, this is a way to begin building some of that security.

In my way of thinking, right now, your relationship with your wife, and your wife's relationship to your family are two separate issues. I don't think trying to tackle both of them at once is going to improve your chances for success on either of them - quite the opposite. I think focus first on fixing the relationship with your wife, and if you are successful there, then you can see what can be done about relationships with family, but it can be done from the context of a secure relationship between your wife and you.


----------



## Boricha

Shy Guy,

You protest too much. You say that there's too many rants on this post. You're not ranting? Can you say HYPOCRICY?

You readily admit you didn't "read" the whole post. It shows. It wasn't his father whose foot got amputated. It was his grandfather. His wife started an imaginary war with his mom and sister. 

If you read the whole post, you'd know the "wife" is just biding time. Just because your situation worked out doesn't mean everyone else's will.


----------



## Coffee Amore

I think it's easy for those from a western perspective to say "man up!" or "Do the 180 on her, bro!".."leave her..there are so many other women out there", but this marital situation requires a much more nuanced cultural approach than the average western marital problem discussed on this website. The wife is a Chinese national and the OP is half-Indian. The mishmash of cultures is a third party in this marriage. Doing some 180 on her might backfire. The result may not be what the OP wants. 

I think shy_guy's background ( former American soldier married to an ethnic Korean woman) who has lived in Korea, China and the west gives a much needed cultural perspective to the thread. 

My two cents and I have read the entire 20 page thread.


----------



## Nsweet

I really think you guys are putting too much emphasis in the multicultural marriage and discrediting a lot her actions as "it must be her heritage". Just because a person is white, black, Native American, Korean, Chinese, or whatever, it doesn't mean their actions should be minimized or excused at all. 

She's pulling away, she's not very respectful to Zeezack or his family, and not acting like she's the least bit serious about reconciliation in least. That's it. End of story. Even though in this case it's a Chinese wife to an Indian husband, their race and nationality is not the primary focus of what's going on here.


----------



## Boricha

What does cultural differences have to do with disrespecting your in-laws? That's a no-no in any culture.


----------



## shy_guy

Boricha said:


> Shy Guy,
> 
> You protest too much. You say that there's too many rants on this post. You're not ranting? Can you say HYPOCRICY?
> 
> You readily admit you didn't "read" the whole post. *It shows. It wasn't his father whose foot got amputated. It was his grandfather.* His wife started an imaginary war with his mom and sister.


There is a lot of reading, and I made a mistake in remembering father vs. grandfather as I was writing, but I guess I don't know how *that* changes the point of anything I said. I'd be happy to discuss it if you can enlighten me to how it changes the substance of what I said in response to it.

I think you may have misunderstood who I said was ranting. Look three posts above yours in the first paragraph of my post. It was my post I called a rant against some of the other posters. 



Boricha said:


> If you read the whole post, you'd know the "wife" is just biding time. Just because your situation worked out doesn't mean everyone else's will.


 
Answering with a quote from my post earlier on this page, which I'm sure you read as you read all of my post, right? 



shy_guy said:


> While there is value in that, my point is that the decision, and ownership of that decision rests with the OP. There is no reason to get upset, and continue to make assumptions (which I have read) and assign motives to his wife. *The truth is, his wife is not the woman you were abused by, and she is not my wife. I cannot see or read her and neither can you.* It's up to him to decide what he is going to do, and he owns that decision.


 


Boricha said:


> What does cultural differences have to do with disrespecting your in-laws? That's a no-no in any culture.


Mainly, because there is more than one side to a story, and cultural differences often lead to one person feeling disrespected and vulnerable, then maybe acting in a way that causes another person to only see the second action and calling that disrespectful. That's the point, and what I meant by the metaphor of trunk vs. root. 

The point I made was that none of us know what his wife's motives are, and she is not here to represent herself. "Biding time" is your interpretation of it. Maybe that's so. I see other possibilities, and most of all, I see that the OP still wants to try, so it's silly for people on here who are not affected one way or another to try to tell the OP that he needs to give it up based on interpretation of actions described by a third party.


----------



## shy_guy

Nsweet said:


> I really think you guys are putting too much emphasis in the multicultural marriage and discrediting a lot her actions as "it must be her heritage". Just because a person is white, black, Native American, Korean, Chinese, or whatever, it doesn't mean their actions should be minimized or excused at all.
> 
> She's pulling away, she's not very respectful to Zeezack or his family, and not acting like she's the least bit serious about reconciliation in least. That's it. End of story. Even though in this case it's a Chinese wife to an Indian husband, their race and nationality is not the primary focus of what's going on here.


There is an additional stressor in the situation. It happens that it is multicultural aspect, and the confusion and frustration that can cause. When you've been very helpless in that situation, you recognize sometimes how it can drive behavior and someone trying to grasp for attention or security in a way that is easy to view as *just* disrespectful. It is disrespectful, but I think not considering that extra stressor is missing a huge factor here, especially since it can make the unrepresented party in this discussion feel very disrespected also, and this factor may be one that can be overcome. Again, the OP is still willing to try to overcome it, and it is he that owns the decision on whether or not to continue.


----------



## zeezack

I spent the weekend with my wife. I even managed to have her talk to my mum on the phone for an hour. It was awkward at times, my wife apologized for sending the email, but not for its content. She agreed to meet my mother next week to discuss issues in person.

I find it difficult at times, because she is very stern, hard and blunt. My mother is a softer person. My wife provides an apology then labels my sister as hot tempered to my mother. She then also blames "Western influences" to pinpoint her negative behavior.

It will be a long road to reconciliation between my her and my family members. My wife is insisting that even if she calms waters, she doesn't want to spend time with my family - not Christmas or Boxing day.


----------



## zeezack

I came back to the house tonight. She even waited to have dinner together. I hope she can formulate a truce as such with my family. Its becoming harder to talk to them as my wife has really rattled the cage. I can understand her view point, but I do wish she be a bit more humble and less blunt towards them. My mum feels she is owed an apology, my father sticks up for her and feels she does not deserve the grief, ny sister is the same and now says she hates my wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

It's up to you to setup the truce, and police it. if you sit back, yet again, your wife is gone, because you cannot be trusted to act when it is required. Your job is to stand up for your wife. Always has been, and you don't. So if you really are going to choose her, well then, it's past time to act like a husband. Get yourself a copy of Fight less, Love More, by Laurie Puhn I think. Read it and start practicing.


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> It's up to you to setup the truce, and police it. if you sit back, yet again, your wife is gone, because you cannot be trusted to act when it is required. Your job is to stand up for your wife. Always has been, and you don't. So if you really are going to choose her, well then, it's past time to act like a husband. Get yourself a copy of Fight less, Love More, by Laurie Puhn I think. Read it and start practicing.


I spoke to my mum yesterday. She said she is in a fragile state - with everything else in her life (her father, nearing retirement) and was even in talks with my dad - whether or not to have the meeting this saturday. The phone call my wife gave to her on sunday was so blunt in so many ways.

Specific to your post though - how much perspective as a whole of the situation do you have - whether or not I have carried out the duties of a husband. I have a primary job, and that job is not to police my wife. I can not control her's or my families actions/re-actions.


 Wife apologized only for sending the email
 Blamed her action of sending it on Western influences
 Labeled my sister as hot tempered
 Basically said she was not sorry for its content (what my mother would have been looking for)

I am trying to support my wife, but she makes things very hard - via a cultural understanding/compromise and family tolerance dynamic.

Although my family have said to me they don't want to see her at Christmas - I have not told my wife this - but have tried to encourage my wife - who herself is trying to opt out.

I think my wife is going through a cultural identity enforcement. She certainly prays more than she used to, and the ritual has become more elaborate.


----------



## LostViking

I think you are a momma's boy. To the bone. 

Let your wife D you, go back to China, and find a real man to marry.


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> I spoke to my mum yesterday. She said she is in a fragile state - with everything else in her life (her father, nearing retirement) and was even in talks with my dad - whether or not to have the meeting this saturday. The phone call my wife gave to her on sunday was so blunt in so many ways.
> 
> Specific to your post though - how much perspective as a whole of the situation do you have - whether or not I have carried out the duties of a husband. I have a primary job, and that job is not to police my wife. I can not control her's or my families actions/re-actions.
> 
> 
> Wife apologized only for sending the email
> Blamed her action of sending it on Western influences
> Labeled my sister as hot tempered
> Basically said she was not sorry for its content (what my mother would have been looking for)
> 
> I am trying to support my wife, but she makes things very hard - via a cultural understanding/compromise and family tolerance dynamic.
> 
> Although my family have said to me they don't want to see her at Christmas - I have not told my wife this - but have tried to encourage my wife - who herself is trying to opt out.
> 
> I think my wife is going through a cultural identity enforcement. She certainly prays more than she used to, and the ritual has become more elaborate.


I have as much perspective as you have provided. You've given plenty in your descriptions and your reactions to the suggestions you get. You are correct, the only person you can control is yourself, but you could mediate for others in your life, if you had the notion to speak out. I didn't either. I too thought it was strictly between the other people. I was wrong. I have a better understaq drnding of my family than my wife. I have a better understanding of my wife than anyone else in my family. I can, and I now do, intervene from time to time, to smooth things out. Or to point out things that are not appropriate.

Do you not understand how alone your wife is/has been feeling? It is readily apparent from what you have written. Has she dealt perfectly? No, by no means. Who could help her with that? It is supposed to be you, but you do not. And now things are so badly messed up, they might be beyond saving, but you keep saying that is what your goal is. Honestly. it would probably be easier to let go, but that's not your choice, so you need to act in ways that support your goal of reconciliation. Or not. Drag it out. Your choice.


----------



## zeezack

LostViking said:


> I think you are a momma's boy. To the bone.
> 
> Let your wife D you, go back to China, and find a real man to marry.


Don't insult me LostViking, I'm not going to defend my manhood here as I don't need to. 

Its my wife's choice if she wants to d or not. She has a problem with my mum - and has recently told it to her; just telling you how my family reacts to all this. The reaction is not good.


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> I have as much perspective as you have provided. You've given plenty in your descriptions and your reactions to the suggestions you get. You are correct, the only person you can control is yourself, but you could mediate for others in your life, if you had the notion to speak out. I didn't either. I too thought it was strictly between the other people. I was wrong. I have a better understaq drnding of my family than my wife. I have a better understanding of my wife than anyone else in my family. I can, and I now do, intervene from time to time, to smooth things out. Or to point out things that are not appropriate.
> 
> Do you not understand how alone your wife is/has been feeling? It is readily apparent from what you have written. Has she dealt perfectly? No, by no means. Who could help her with that? It is supposed to be you, but you do not. And now things are so badly messed up, they might be beyond saving, but you keep saying that is what your goal is. Honestly. it would probably be easier to let go, but that's not your choice, so you need to act in ways that support your goal of reconciliation. Or not. Drag it out. Your choice.


Yes I understand how alone my wife is - she bought a house without me and decides to reside there on her own - I still don't have a house key. However I am making the effort to be with her more.

I have tried to tell her to talk to my family in private - she refused, I have tried to ask my family to talk to her in private - they did not. I told my sister not to write emails to her - she did so anyway.

Yes it may be easier to let her go - be in a non-relationship with me for 2 years - but that is her choice and my choice too if I wanted that.

I am trying to explain to my family there is more at stake here than just my wife's behavior - that there is something else under the surface to deflect their anger/critical feedback.

My family used to get along well with my wife - but its my wife who has turned tides and invoked wraith. Trying to do my best on both fronts.


----------



## Starstarfish

> The phone call my wife gave to her on sunday was so blunt in so many ways.


I think there's a constant level of judgement and expectation placed on your wife to behave in this perfect manner. Otherwise she's "cold" or "blunt" or "stand-offish" something that perpetually makes her the bad guy. 



> I find it difficult at times, because she is very stern, hard and blunt. My mother is a softer person.


This is who your wife is. Your wife isn't your mother. Your wife likely can't and shouldn't be expected to change her entire personality because your mother is "fragile" and "soft." I mean, what specifically do you mean by that as you seem to mention it a lot.



> I can understand her view point, but I do wish she be a bit more humble and less blunt towards them.


Why is it always your wife's place to be more humble? Why don't you have that expectation towards your family members? Why are they always given a free pass and excuses? I mean, you said it was *-only-* an email, when it was something sent -to- your wife, but when she gives as good as she gets, she needs to be more humble. Why is that expectation only on her?


----------



## sh987

Starstarfish said:


> Why is it always your wife's place to be more humble? Why don't you have that expectation towards your family members? Why are they always given a free pass and excuses? I mean, you said it was *-only-* an email, when it was something sent -to- your wife, but when she gives as good as she gets, she needs to be more humble. Why is that expectation only on her?


Agreed that it's the wife who's repeatedly been placed in a difficult circumstance. Not to say that she's always responded perfectly, but Z has consistently allowed his family to stick their oar in marital waters.

Hell... The email his wife sent to his mother was respectful and spoke well of the role Z's mother has in her family. Z's wife should never have received an email in the first place.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Yes I understand how alone my wife is - she bought a house without me and decides to reside there on her own


Like you deciding to have a bachelor pad in the city you live in alone half the week? 

Again, it seems like what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander here. Where you and your family make choices, and do certain behaviors, and they are okay, or excusable or "just the way people are" or any of a million other reasons why things just had to be that way. But when your wife does the same things, she's on the seat for "invoking wrath."


----------



## Nsweet

Dude, you are way too hung up on trying to make your wife happy so she'll throw you a crumb of affection or want to work on a marriage she's so hellbent on leaving. You're like a addict! It's pathetic. 

I know you don't want to hear it but you're not acting like a man your wife or any wayward wife would want to return to. You're needy, clingy, pathetic. Face it, you're selling your own integrity and slowly killing yourself to make her happy just grasping at straws to think of something that will make her want to stay.

You need to grow a back bone and stand up to her every once in a while. If she doesn't want to be with you then tell her to piss off, sign the divorce papers, and go find a woman that *won't make you work for her affection or insult your family every chance she gets.*

But I know how much that must hurt to think about not chasing after an unworthy woman who makes you go crazy trying to be a good little boy, so if you're not ready then by all means swallow the blue pill and believe all the bullsh!t you've been fed about listening to her, following her rules, and bending over backwards to please your cheating Chinese wife.


----------



## SaltInWound

Nsweet said:


> Dude, you are way too hung up on trying to make your wife happy so she'll throw you a crumb of affection or want to work on a marriage she's so hellbent on leaving. You're like a addict! It's pathetic.
> 
> I know you don't want to hear it but you're not acting like a man your wife or any wayward wife would want to return to. You're needy, clingy, pathetic. Face it, you're selling your own integrity and slowly killing yourself to make her happy just grasping at straws to think of something that will make her want to stay.
> 
> You need to grow a back bone and stand up to her every once in a while. If she doesn't want to be with you then tell her to piss off, sign the divorce papers, and go find a woman that *won't make you work for her affection or insult your family every chance she gets.*
> 
> But I know how much that must hurt to think about not chasing after an unworthy woman who makes you go crazy trying to be a good little boy, so if you're not ready then by all means swallow the blue pill and believe all the bullsh!t you've been fed about listening to her, following her rules, and bending over backwards to please your cheating Chinese wife.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Nsweet

BTW Zeezack, if it seems like I'm hard on you and being an assh*le it's because I know you're not going to listen to reason or accept the truth right now. You only want to hear what a good job you're doing and live in the FOG (Fear, Obligation, and Guilt), while you rack your brain trying to figure out how to get your honeymoon back. 

The only thing that will work to get you thinking for yourself is to piss you off and maybe, maybe get you to question one-tenth of what you're doing with some objectivity and think about standing up for yourself and only yourself right now. You're a grown ass man who doesn't need to your wife or your mama to feel good about yourself right now.


----------



## zeezack

Starstarfish said:


> I think there's a constant level of judgement and expectation placed on your wife to behave in this perfect manner. Otherwise she's "cold" or "blunt" or "stand-offish" something that perpetually makes her the bad guy.
> 
> This is who your wife is. Your wife isn't your mother. Your wife likely can't and shouldn't be expected to change her entire personality because your mother is "fragile" and "soft." I mean, what specifically do you mean by that as you seem to mention it a lot.


You are right - this is who she is - and its just the case that I have to translate that to my family - that she is stern but means well. When I say soft - I mean sensitive - perhaps my family are too sensitive.






Starstarfish said:


> Why is it always your wife's place to be more humble? Why don't you have that expectation towards your family members? Why are they always given a free pass and excuses? I mean, you said it was *-only-* an email, when it was something sent -to- your wife, but when she gives as good as she gets, she needs to be more humble. Why is that expectation only on her?


I do have expectations towards my family members - but my wife does have a habit of kicking the bucket and also bit-part apologizing which doesn't resolve anything. I feel my wife can still get across her message without coming across weak, ill-mannered or condescending.


----------



## zeezack

Are you guys just going to like each others posts and keep throwing insults and making assumptions?


My wife is not cheating on me
I have a backbone and do stand up to her and tell her what I think.
I listen to what they all have to say and make my own actions which I deem reasonable. I take things one step at a time.
 My wife nearly got the bachelor pad with me; I bought it so I could a) get onto the property ladder myself b) get out of the rental situation c) place all of my belongings as there is not really any space for my stuff at the house - i) I didn't have a house key straight away
 So I have my own property, with my own environment, which I wanted to share with my wife - but since she has refused the key, well.


----------



## SadandAngry

"...actions I deem reasonable...". That has gotten you to exactly where you are. If you want different results, I suggest you act on a way you de unreasonable.


----------



## zeezack

Starstarfish said:


> Like you deciding to have a bachelor pad in the city you live in alone half the week?
> 
> Again, it seems like what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander here. Where you and your family make choices, and do certain behaviors, and they are okay, or excusable or "just the way people are" or any of a million other reasons why things just had to be that way. But when your wife does the same things, she's on the seat for "invoking wrath."


I wouldn't have a "bachelor" pad - if my wife waited and bought a house jointly with me. I don't condone my family interfering, never have.


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> "...actions I deem reasonable...". That has gotten you to exactly where you are. If you want different results, I suggest you act on a way you de unreasonable.


What do you propose?


----------



## A Bit Much

zeezack said:


> Are you guys just going to like each others posts and keep throwing insults and making assumptions?
> 
> 
> My wife is not cheating on me
> I have a backbone and do stand up to her and tell her what I think.
> I listen to what they all have to say and make my own actions which I deem reasonable. I take things one step at a time.
> My wife nearly got the bachelor pad with me; I bought it so I could a) get onto the property ladder myself b) get out of the rental situation c) place all of my belongings as there is not really any space for my stuff at the house - i) I didn't have a house key straight away
> So I have my own property, with my own environment, which I wanted to share with my wife - but since she has refused the key, well.



I see the advice hasn't really changed over the last 4 months. I also see you saying the same things over and over. Nothing has changed with your relationship though... interesting.

Nothing changes if nothing changes. You can be stubborn and get upset with what people are saying here, but we are only going with the info you give us. From the looks of it, you don't want to admit that your family is one of the main reasons you and your wife are apart. That's fine. You could fix that as someone mentioned because you are between her and them. Is that what you WANT to do? It doesn't really sound like it, not to me or many others here reading your story.

Stay in this limbo for as long as you like. That is certainly your choice, but don't expect people here to have much to say or be in support of that.


----------



## zeezack

Well the situation has moved forward since. Communication has opened up, we are seeing more of each other. Trying to get the family and my wife to move past the problems (cultural, past behaviors).

I don't mind the ideas/suggestions - but being called pathetic and not a real man - I will rebute.


----------



## A Bit Much

Until you recognize and behave in a way that puts your wife first, you will stay apart. That's it. Nothing else to 'work' out. That goes above cultural differences, past behaviors, whatever excuse you want to throw out there.


----------



## zeezack

A Bit Much said:


> cultural differences, past behaviors, whatever excuse you want to throw out there.


My wife's reasons for initiating a separation and considering a divorce; not mine. I too feel they are excuses, but she feels very strongly about things to the point of refusing to come over to Christmas, my family banning her from coming down for Christmas. 

We currently have a meeting with my family this saturday - if my parents withdraw or not (to have a more peaceful weekend); or my wife changes her mind.


----------



## sh987

zeezack said:


> My wife's reasons for initiating a separation and considering a divorce; not mine. I too feel they are excuses, but she feels very strongly about things to the point of refusing to come over to Christmas, my family banning her from coming down for Christmas.
> 
> We currently have a meeting with my family this saturday - if my parents withdraw or not (to have a more peaceful weekend); or my wife changes her mind.


Question: if she won't go, or is not welcome at your family's house on Christmas, who will you spend the day with, and have you talked about that with her?


----------



## Nsweet

Honestly Zeezack, how much have you learned in 22 pages? Not a lot from what I can tell. I didn't even see you read one book on reconciliation or divorce, but you're always here arguing how someone's suggestions won't work because you think you know better. 

Your wife cancels on family gatherings long before they even happen.... That doesn't sound like progress to me. That sounds like she's trying to make any excuse she can think of to withdraw and is still planning on divorcing. If your wife was serious at all about reconciliation she would be making an attempt to be in your life and kinder to your family, but what she's doing is trying to break up with them first so she can leave you later.


----------



## A Bit Much

zeezack said:


> My wife's reasons for initiating a separation and considering a divorce; not mine. I too feel they are excuses, but she feels very strongly about things to the point of refusing to come over to Christmas, my family banning her from coming down for Christmas.
> 
> We currently have a meeting with my family this saturday - if my parents withdraw or not (to have a more peaceful weekend); or my wife changes her mind.


And you should support your wife's reasons. You don't. Which is why you are here.


----------



## zeezack

sh987 said:


> Question: if she won't go, or is not welcome at your family's house on Christmas, who will you spend the day with, and have you talked about that with her?


I have asked her to consider coming down; hence why I tried to get her to talk/resolve things before Christmas. My Aunty/Grandma also asked her to consider coming down to Boxing day.

She doesn't consider Christmas day important; being Chinese she doesn't share the same feelings towards it. She considers it fake etc... although I have expressed her to come down for the sake of my grandparents.

I am in the mindset of spending the bulk of the holidays with her; but for Christmas day I would make an appearance to my family's home (but more so for the sake of my Grandfather helping him in and out of the house - as with his condition could be his last year, never know) and Boxing day at my Aunty's as my grandma would be going back to the states soon after. My wife would prefer I be with my family - and that I should NOT opt to disappoint them - but its mostly for my grandparents I would choose to spend Christmas with them and my wife understands that.


----------



## Nsweet

So your wife *who is still pushing for divorce* is just fine with you spending all Christmas with your family and prefers you be with them. Does that not sound suspicious to you?

*These are things cheaters do!*


----------



## zeezack

Nsweet said:


> So your wife *who is still pushing for divorce* is just fine with you spending all Christmas with your family and prefers you be with them. Does that not sound suspicious to you?
> 
> *These are things cheaters do!*


At the moment - my wife is not pushing for divorce - she appears to have lifted the separation.

She is not wanting to go to Christmas for the sake of the family tension.

I really don't think she is cheating, my wife deems herself to have really high morals and would consider such an act a sin.


----------



## Nsweet

zeezack said:


> At the moment - my wife is not pushing for divorce - she appears to have lifted the separation.
> 
> She is not wanting to go to Christmas for the sake of the family tension.
> 
> I really don't think she is cheating, my wife deems herself to have really high morals and would consider such an act a sin.


You're right you don't think, you assume. 

You assume way to much that you know what your wife's motives are and that she's some perfect snowflake and one in a million good Chinese girl. And you assume you know better than everybody else here.

I'm telling you I can almost sense an impending divorce package after the holidays. The way she's acting now is just like how some of these other wayward wives and husbands have right before they dropped the bomb.


----------



## sh987

zeezack said:


> I have asked her to consider coming down; hence why I tried to get her to talk/resolve things before Christmas. My Aunty/Grandma also asked her to consider coming down to Boxing day.
> 
> She doesn't consider Christmas day important; being Chinese she doesn't share the same feelings towards it. She considers it fake etc... although I have expressed her to come down for the sake of my grandparents.
> 
> I am in the mindset of spending the bulk of the holidays with her; but for Christmas day I would make an appearance to my family's home (but more so for the sake of my Grandfather helping him in and out of the house - as with his condition could be his last year, never know) and Boxing day at my Aunty's as my grandma would be going back to the states soon after. My wife would prefer I be with my family - and that I should NOT opt to disappoint them - but its mostly for my grandparents I would choose to spend Christmas with them and my wife understands that.


Thanks for the answer. I wouldn't try to convince her to attend your family function if I were you. WAY too soon, and with feelings being raw, it's much more likely to widen the rift between her and your family rather than close it.

The going so as not to disappoint your family: that's the filial piety part, I take it?


----------



## zeezack

Nsweet said:


> You're right you don't think, you assume.
> 
> You assume way to much that you know what your wife's motives are and that she's some perfect snowflake and one in a million good Chinese girl. And you assume you know better than everybody else here.
> 
> I'm telling you I can almost sense an impending divorce package after the holidays. The way she's acting now is just like how some of these other wayward wives and husbands have right before they dropped the bomb.


Well I shall proceed with caution. One day at a time. I am not saying she is a snowflake. But I do feel - from my 8 years of being with her - that she is going through a cultural clash; and is unsure on what she wants/doesn't want for the next generation. She is concerned my family have raised their kids (me and my sister) poorly by her standards. She fears/paranoid that bad influences will be instituted by my family/sister.

I would at least like her to list these concerns - and form some kind of boundary guide for if and when we do have children things are agreed/known about before hand.


----------



## zeezack

sh987 said:


> Thanks for the answer. I wouldn't try to convince her to attend your family function if I were you. WAY too soon, and with feelings being raw, it's much more likely to widen the rift between her and your family rather than close it.
> 
> The going so as not to disappoint your family: that's the filial piety part, I take it?


Well if she doesn't want to go - she doesn't have to come. But I will prep her Christmas gifts earlier and have encouraged her to at least not spend the day alone.

filial piety - yes - please ones parents first
Filial piety - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I did propose spending Christmas with her - just her and myself earlier - but after the family ruckus and my grandparents condition + it being raw feelings on both sides - I agree with what you have said.


----------



## SaltInWound

zeezack said:


> She doesn't consider Christmas day important; being Chinese she doesn't share the same feelings towards it. *She considers it fake* etc...


What, of her culture, have you told her is fake?


----------



## zeezack

SaltInWound said:


> What, of her culture, have you told her is fake?


In reference to Christmas - she meant the opening of presents/fake smiles.


----------



## zeezack

I went over to the house yesterday. We had finished dinner and I was talking about Saturday's arrangements. I said to my wife that during the separation how I felt towards the silent treatment she gave me and labeled it as emotional abuse at 8p.m.

My wife flipped out and started to pack my suit/belongings in my rucksack. She told me to stop talking and shut up. On one instance said I could leave the house in my pajamas as I walk to the train station at 9p.m. She went upstairs and prepared herself to bed and said I could stay the night in the other room and that she wouldn't want me to come back today and that she will not go to Kent to see my family on Saturday. She then proceeded to slam the bedroom door shut, just after she handed me the box containing her rings. She said she asked me back because she felt pity for me, that it was a mistake, that she didn't want children with me. That I'm just like my mother.

She then opened the bedroom door and acknowledged her hot temper was wrong. She said she had failed the test of her Buddhism teachings. I told her behavior is passive aggressive and stems somewhere back from her childhood - possibly where she felt oppressed by her parents (when she was told off and still retained her duty to respect them). I said that she has to decide what she wants and who she wants to have children with. That I am just trying to do my best to keep the job down, family together and respect her wishes against all of the erratic and emotional behavior she exhibits. She showed affection and hugged me and we spoke for a few more minutes until it got late (11p.m.). I said to her its getting late and that we best go to bed.

It was a rough night, and I felt withdrawn/depleted this morning. I had the breakfast she made me and hugged her goodbye and wished her well. Before I left the house I requested again for her to sort me out a key.


----------



## Nsweet

The only reason she turned abusive when you called her out on it was because.... she was being abusive. 

Now do you see what everyone has been telling you? You can't make your wife be nice to you or turn her back into who you married. This is how she really is. I'm telling you I spot a few traits of a BPD in her. Look them up for yourself on shrink4men.com 

And you know with the poorer functioning women like this you can't show weakness or hold an honest conversation about she's hurt you without rage attacks and distorting the truth in one way or another to blame you. The only thing you can do is 180 and walk away when she gets to be to bad, ignoring her for a while when her actions are totally out of control. But in order to have a relationship with her you would have to be more of an adult than she is and be able to see through a lot of her attempts to control you through playing the victim, lies, rage attacks, physical and mental abuse including a lot of hold and cold actions, unpredictable emotions, black and white perceptions of you, and possibly a few affairs when you've done everything right to love her and prevent them.

Remember the nicer you are to her when she doesn't want you, the more she's going to hate you for wanting her. You're going to have to learn to stop chasing her and trying to be at her beck and call in case she changes her mind about your divorce. She doesn't not respect you and she will not if you keep any of these actions up.


----------



## zeezack

I explained to my wife - that yesterday's events are unacceptable. She had asked what I would like her to change/work on. I will ask her to try and answer these questions as if from my perspective

Signs of Emotional Abuse | World of Psychology

My answers in relation to my wife are as follows

*Humiliation, degradation, discounting, negating. judging, criticizing:*

Does anyone make fun of you or put you down in front of others? *No*
 Do they tease you, use sarcasm as a way to put you down or degrade you? *Yes, sometimes mimics me*
 When you complain do they say that “it was just a joke” and that you are too sensitive? *Yes*
 Do they tell you that your opinion or feelings are “wrong?” *Yes. Informs me its because I have not learnt how to control my mind*
 Does anyone regularly ridicule, dismiss, disregard your opinions, thoughts, suggestions, and feelings? *Yes, not sympathetic to my feelings of being upset*
 *Domination, control, and shame:*

Do you feel that the person treats you like a child? *Yes, sometimes tries to teach me her way of doing things*
 Do they constantly correct or chastise you because your behavior is “inappropriate?” *Yes*
 Do you feel you must “get permission” before going somewhere or before making even small decisions? *Yes, sometimes.*
 Do they control your spending? *No, but did want me to show her my bank statements often*
 Do they treat you as though you are inferior to them? *Only sometimes*
 Do they make you feel as though they are always right? *Yes*
 Do they remind you of your shortcomings? *Yes*
 Do they belittle your accomplishments, your aspirations, your plans or even who you are? *Not always but has dubbed down accomplisments*
 Do they give disapproving, dismissive, contemptuous, or condescending looks, comments, and behavior? *Yes*
 *Accusing and blaming, trivial and unreasonable demands or expectations, denies own shortcomings:*

Do they accuse you of something contrived in their own minds when you know it isn’t true? *Yes. I feel my wife does make assumptions, but she says they are observations that she herself has observed.*
 Are they unable to laugh at themselves? *No*
 Are they extremely sensitive when it comes to others making fun of them or making any kind of comment that seems to show a lack of respect? *Yes. She will tell me if I am being disrespectful.*
 Do they have trouble apologizing? *Yes*
 Do they make excuses for their behavior or tend to blame others or circumstances for their mistakes? *Yes*
 Do they call you names or label you? *Yes. Idiot.*
 Do they blame you for their problems or unhappiness? *Yes. Blamed me for her unhappiness. Has said she was far happier on her own without me.*
 Do they continually have “boundary violations” and disrespect your valid requests? *No*
 * Emotional distancing and the “silent treatment,” isolation, emotional abandonment or neglect:*

Do they use pouting, withdrawal or withholding attention or affection? *Yes. Has at times not allowed me to touch her hand*
 Do they not want to meet the basic needs or use neglect or abandonment as punishment? *Perhaps.*
 Do they play the victim to deflect blame onto you instead of taking responsibility for their actions and attitudes? *Perhaps. Has felt victimized by my family*
 Do they not notice or care how you feel? *Yes, if I am unhappy*
 Do they not show empathy or ask questions to gather information? *Yes, initially will not instigate what is wrong if I am upset.*
 * Codependence and enmeshment:*

Does anyone treat you not as a separate person but instead as an extension of themselves? *Perhaps*
 Do they not protect your personal boundaries and share information that you have not approved? *Yes. Has told both sides of the family very private information without my permission*
 Do they disrespect your requests and do what they think is best for you? *Yes. I requested for her not to buy the house, she did so anyway*
 Do they require continual contact and haven’t developed a healthy support network among their own peers? *No, but she does have a small friend network*


----------



## Nsweet

So you found out how your wayward wife was emotionally abusing you. And your first plan of action was to confront her? Great plan genius.:rofl: 

You just did the number one thing you're not supposed to do if you want to reconcile or divorce on good terms. You should have taken this information to TAM or a therapist right away.

You better leave her alone for about a month or two and let the dust settle if you know what's good for you.


----------



## zeezack

Nsweet. I will do what I feel is best. I will stand up for myself. I won't continue to walk on eggshells around her. Again, I ask you not to come off so condescending in your own posts.


----------



## Nsweet

zeezack said:


> Nsweet. I will do what I feel is best. I will stand up for myself. I won't continue to walk on eggshells around her. Again, I ask you not to come off so condescending in your own posts.


Honestly zeezack,I don't know why you come to TAM if you never listen to any one else's advice but your own. It's been 22 or 23 pages now and each time someone tries to help you with advice that seems hard or you don't like you just tell them you know better and do the same exact thing the next day, and the next day, and the next day. 

If you read a book, ANY BOOK on reconciliation or the 180 list from TAM or Divorce Busters you'd get a feel what what you should do vs what you're doing now. You're pretty much chasing your wife btw. You don't like hearing the truth, but I'm going to tell it to you. You're chasing your wife right into a divorce and you need to stop EVERYTHING, not just go dark I mean you need to stop trying to force her to go to Christmas with your family if she doesn't want to. 

BTW, great choice of words. You check out a book call "Walking On Eggshells". It's all about relationships with BPD people written for both PD and Nons. It's a great book and will teach you how to deal with your wife, unless you think you know better with that too.


----------



## zeezack

Thank you for the book suggestions. If you read my other posts - it would clearly state I won't force her to go to Christmas.

I am going through a reconciliation process now. So although I have read about the 180 rule on divorce busters, I no longer feel it applies with the current day events.

Again I ask you - to show a little more respect than post comments like "I don't know why you come to TAM". In all honesty Nsweet, just keeping this thread posted with the latest news.


----------



## SaltInWound

zeezack said:


> I am going through a reconciliation process now.


Is that what she is calling it? She already told you she only took you back because she felt sorry for you. 

This recent conflict is interesting. You say something she doesn't like, she blows up and.....

1. Demonstrates her power over you by telling you to shut up, then packs your bag. You still don't have a key to the house and this is her way of reminding you this is HER house. She knows what you want and she isn't going to let you have it. She will always feel justified to pull the rug.

2. She knew the conflict was focusing on her poor behavior. What does she do to distract that focus? She interjects your family into it.


----------



## Troubledtimes

Congrats on getting to the reconciliation process. Z, the attributes you learn in the 180 should be retained and not disposed of once reconciliation is achieved. The 180 is more about being happy with yourself first, which you can then bring to the relationship. ASking her to work on things and finding fault will only push her away, whereas if you reward her positive behavior and dont respond to her negative behavior ( ie. walk away), she will start to treat you better on her own.
The more you try to change her, the more controlling she finds you, and the more justified she feels in her negative feelings for you.


----------



## zeezack

SaltInWound said:


> Is that what she is calling it? She already told you she only took you back because she felt sorry for you.
> 
> This recent conflict is interesting. You say something she doesn't like, she blows up and.....
> 
> 1. Demonstrates her power over you by telling you to shut up, then packs your bag. You still don't have a key to the house and this is her way of reminding you this is HER house. She knows what you want and she isn't going to let you have it. She will always feel justified to pull the rug.
> 
> 2. She knew the conflict was focusing on her poor behavior. What does she do to distract that focus? She interjects your family into it.


Yeah I agree. I do find it astonishing in the way she handles the situation. I said to her though she has to make a decision on what she wants to do and that reconciling out of pitty is not right.

I think she is extremely passive aggressive. Its hard to know if she means what she says or just says it to hurt me.


----------



## zeezack

Troubledtimes said:


> Congrats on getting to the reconciliation process. Z, the attributes you learn in the 180 should be retained and not disposed of once reconciliation is achieved. The 180 is more about being happy with yourself first, which you can then bring to the relationship. ASking her to work on things and finding fault will only push her away, whereas if you reward her positive behavior and dont respond to her negative behavior ( ie. walk away), she will start to treat you better on her own.
> The more you try to change her, the more controlling she finds you, and the more justified she feels in her negative feelings for you.


Well I have stuck to my compromises about trying to live in the house more often - even when I don't have a key. I have tried to retain what I want to do to make me happy (gym, live in the London flat on set days/times)


----------



## SaltInWound

zeezack said:


> I said to her though she has to make a decision on what she wants to do and that *reconciling out of pitty* is not right.


That is not really reconciling, is it?


----------



## zeezack

We went to my parents house today. She spoke to them for about an hour and a half. She felt she had made many mis-interpretations. It cleared the air a lot. We stayed for lunch and are now heading back home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Yes her telling me it was out of pity, I did not agree it should be that way and I was hurt by that. I don't think its entirely true or the real reason she decided to try and give the marriage another shot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Sunday was a good day. We went out did some shopping and had a curry for lunch. We went to bed around 9:30, and so I paused a tv show I was watching to go to bed. My wife wanted me to stop watching it immediately but I said just give me 5 more minutes - she let me have my 5 mins, I kept my word and went to bed.

On monday morning, I got ready for work and had 20mins or so before leaving the house. I resumed the tv show and ate breakfast. My wife became frustrated and said to stop it. Not to have breakfast and watch something at the same time; I got a bit annoyed and tried to defend myself, but felt I didn't have the time to carry anything out. So I carried out her wish and finished breakfast on the sofa. She confessed I am still on trial and that I didn't need to back home on monday evening. I sighed and said I will be back; I came back on monday evening and my wife was discouraged from wanting to talk to me. I tried to talk to her, but she was not in the mood. So we went to bed (separate rooms still). 

I thanked her for breakfast on tuesday morning and left the house. As agreed I spent tuesday evening and wednesday at the london flat. I returned to the house on thursday evening (tonight) and again she doesn't want to talk to me. I came home early to have dinner with her; as I saw her cooking something on the stove. I watched some tv, whilst she prayed and almost 40mins past. I went over and helped myself to the pot on the stove that was luke warm. My wife was still unresponsive and continued to ignore me.

Eventually she opened up and said she is not happy and that she feels this marriage is a burden. She said again she wants to divorce and that she is only coming down for christmas for my grandma's sake.

I had just booked a hotel near my parents as per my wife's requests. I said to her she need not come down if she doesn't want to. I said that I would go if she wants and gave her permission to date other men if she wanted to.

She then said she will give me another chance and that I am not to answer back. Its like I keep saying to her that she has my permission to seek out other men and divorce and yet gives me another chance.

I feel she has a strong maternal instict she is trying to protect; and me disobeying her over watching tv and eating breakfast is a trait she doesn't want to be passed down to the kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

Your choice of language is interesting.

So now, you've had your chain jerked yet again. She says jump, you say how high? Is that what you thought married life ought to be? Is that how you want your life to be? Do you think she is the only woman in the world that might sort of, but not really, tolerate you?

What's in this for you? Are you giving her exclusive control of your pay?


----------



## zeezack

My father said the same thing about 'jumping how high'. Is that what I thought married life would be like, of course not, we worked well as boyfriend and girlfriend; there were no family rifts as such. I thought we would buy a house together under a joint mortgage. I have tried to calm myself down and take each day as it comes, not give in to all her demands and take on what makes me happy. I am trying to compromise and stick to a set of days at the home regardless of her mood. Sure there are other women. I do still have feelings for my wife, attachments as my wife.

I have not given her any control of my pay, but again was about to sort my financies out for savings, contribution towards OUR house.

I was going to do my bit, on my terms to help with things. As I mentioned she felt like being married is an obligation, that I am on trial - hence why I still don't have a key.

Its hard for me playing the part of yoyo, but I am just trying to make a marriage work, with joint compromises. I feel my wife has passive aggressive tendancies and as such she can come off erratic and ambigious. I find her emotionally abusive at times, but she doesn't see it like that. She has a taste of being on her own with no comitments and in essence prefers that more. I am unsure if she has the stregth to try and sustain any relationship; and yet at the same time does want to have children. She didn't seem to jump at the chance of dating other men, and I pointed out to her that she understands that all of her micro rules may not be processed by other men, she realizes that. Yes at the moment I feel there are times when I am part of a family home and take enjoyment being with her; but then there are times when I see how hard things are for her and she returns only crtisim and rejection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sh987

zeezack said:


> My father said the same thing about 'jumping how high'. Is that what I thought married life would be like, of course not, we worked well as boyfriend and girlfriend; there were no family rifts as such. I thought we would buy a house together under a joint mortgage. I have tried to calm myself down and take each day as it comes, not give in to all her demands and take on what makes me happy. I am trying to compromise and stick to a set of days at the home regardless of her mood. Sure there are other women. I do still have feelings for my wife, attachments as my wife.
> 
> I have not given her any control of my pay, but again was about to sort my financies out for savings, contribution towards OUR house.
> 
> I was going to do my bit, on my terms to help with things. As I mentioned she felt like being married is an obligation, that I am on trial - hence why I still don't have a key.
> 
> Its hard for me playing the part of yoyo, but I am just trying to make a marriage work, with joint compromises. I feel my wife has passive aggressive tendancies and as such she can come off erratic and ambigious. I find her emotionally abusive at times, but she doesn't see it like that. She has a taste of being on her own with no comitments and in essence prefers that more. I am unsure if she has the stregth to try and sustain any relationship; and yet at the same time does want to have children. She didn't seem to jump at the chance of dating other men, and I pointed out to her that she understands that all of her micro rules may not be processed by other men, she realizes that. Yes at the moment I feel there are times when I am part of a family home and take enjoyment being with her; but then there are times when I see how hard things are for her and she returns only crtisim and rejection.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right that compromise is important. It just seems like you're the only one doing any of it, between the two of you. I'm not having a go at you, but making an honest point based on what you say here.


----------



## zeezack

I do find things very hard.

I try and salvage the relationship and do my duties as a husband under the circumstances we are in.

I try and live in a house in Hertfordshire that I did not agree on, in terms of its location and yet its not enough for her. My days are much shorter and more expensive traveling over there. Luckily I can leave work at 17:30 (usually it can be 18:30). I catch the 18:10 train and can get to Hitchin station by 18:35. I can then walk 20 minutes to the house or take a taxi (£4). So I may get to the house just before 19:00, then aim for bed at 22:00. Get up to get ready for work at 06:45. Then walk to the station at 07:20. Catch the 07:51 train and be back in London at 08:30.

Ironically the London flat is one street away from my current work place. I try to take the trip to the house every Monday and Thursday. So I am there most of Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday morning, Thursday evening, Friday morning.

My wife has made no commitments to live in the London flat at all - and when we bought (when she agreed to the location, price, attended mortgage meetings with me) it I thought the agreement was for her to live with me there on Wednesday evenings to break the week up.

She would prefer I live in the house MOST of the time. She would prefer I stay in the London flat only 1 day a week, but gave me permission for 2. Due to work/life commitments I have retained up to 3 days in London so far - post separation. 

I feel her buying that house in Hertfordshire was a big mistake. If she had waited a year - living in the rented flat - which I paid for, we could have then got a bigger house together under a joint mortgage and pushed more of a deposit towards it. Having the main house under her name; has invoked this control mechanism she uses against me when things in the marriage go astray. She has not given me a key and in essence its not an equal footing. On top of this she is insisting I do things she says - for the best interests of myself even if I don't naturally want to. She was NOT like this when we lived in the rental accommodation for 2 years in London. She was always health conscious but didn't express ending the marriage if I didn't carry it out. She has also become far more religious and prays far more than she used to. I don't mind her praying - but 1-3 hours a day - when we could be looking to discuss problems/resolve conflict.

I find myself neutrally stumped emotionally after yesterday's events. I'm trying to be consistent - book the hotel, attend, plan around family events and formulate a balance of my time between my wife/family etc... but then get told by my wife that because on Monday I ate breakfast whilst watching something and defended myself she wants out. That she is fearful of the future for our children, that to be with my family is a burden; that the marriage is a burden; that the marriage is like an obligation; I have my entire family cautioning me I am making a big mistake trying to get back with my wife, that I won't be happy long term.

I find it very hard to try and carry out the role of a husband, when I feel I could be kicked out of the main home anytime over any small petty conflict that is against her cultural wishes.

I end up trying to give her small early Christmas presents (hot water bottle) whilst also giving her the option to date other men whilst still married (invoking another separation period).

I have proposed this morning we opt again to attend marriage counseling, that it will be a benefit for her/us to express our concerns - about children/marriage expectations. I have given her the option of a Wednesday slot after work - in a location obtainable for both of us.


----------



## sh987

I'm hearing ALL of that, Z: It would be extremely frustrating. It's good that you recognize the controlling and abusive nature of what she does. 

So, the million dollar question: when do you reach your breaking point, and what if she refuses marriage counseling?


----------



## zeezack

sh987 said:


> I'm hearing ALL of that, Z: It would be extremely frustrating. It's good that you recognize the controlling and abusive nature of what she does.
> 
> So, the million dollar question: when do you reach your breaking point, and what if she refuses marriage counseling?


Well she is refusing marriage counseling. I am trying to find a marriage counselor of non-western culture. Maybe she would be more inclined to listen.

My sister is a counselor and feels that my wife's controlling nature is a big sign to step away from the marriage. That I will have little to no influence on our children.

I am considering getting in contact with marriage counselors from a Chinese decent, it appears there are more in America.

My wife keeps turning it around and saying that I NEED to stick to MY promises - and that is why things have gone astray because I do not listen.

I do find myself in a hard place - I either do something I consider normal (watching tv and eating breakfast) that offends my wife and she deems it all over when I try and defend my actions as acceptable. 

Its like her maternal Chinese cultural instincts are in hyper drive, but she refuses to end the marriage and find an older Chinese man. She also feels she may not find another man that will follow the micro-rules she now lives her own life by.


----------



## Nsweet

Dude, your wife is a controlling b!tch. You can do WAY better than her.


----------



## zeezack

Nsweet said:


> Dude, your wife is a controlling b!tch. You can do WAY better than her.


My sister would maybe agree with that. I find it very difficult to filter through logic and emotions at this time. I am trying to make things work - but my wife appears so erratic and unstable. I find it hard to peel away the layers of truth in what she does/says. I find at times things become twisted in some circular logic with her.


----------



## A Bit Much

What madness.

I have no new advice to offer, but I wanted to say that the description of life with this woman isn't something most people would want or tolerate for another week. It's gone on too long already.


----------



## zeezack

The counselor I was seeing also said that this was not good. I find it very very difficult to try and stand by and support my wife as a husband, when she appears so self-destructive of the relationship.

I am deeply concerned about things and I take every day as my last. Walking on egg shells if I accidentally or intentionally break my promises.

I feel my wife is remaining married for the wrong reasons. I feel my wife considers ending the marriage for the wrong reasons over minor incidents she does not approve of. Yet she refuses to go to marriage counseling - even for advice. I will get in touch with Chinese based marriage counselors and see what she says.


----------



## Nsweet

Have you tried not trying? Because your wise's crazy-making behavior is making you miserable and you're walking on egg shells to please a woman who is trying to give change the rules and take control over you. She's more than likely still going to leave you too because she's not happy, she doesn't want you to try to make her happy, and no matter what goes on she still blaming you for everything. 

I admire you wanting to stay and try, but I'm tell if you just go ahead and divorce her like she wants she can run back to China where she doesn't even have to try to assimilate into your culture of become Americanzed, and you'll have much less stress not constantly trying to please a woman who looks for excuses to hate you and everything you're doing to make her happy. I say if you just cut her lose you leave it up to her to decide if she wants to be your wife, and you get to finally unwind and take a break from being superhusband.


----------



## zeezack

I find this all very difficult. 

On the one hand my wife who is acting irrationally is asking me to take on a set of guidelines which benefit my health and encourage her from wanting the marriage to continue. To satisfy her own insecurities about me and my family culture.

On the other hand she is negating her own bad behavior and doesn't see her behavior (rude, cold, non affectionate, non empathetic) as equally detrimental to the marriage and for future children. She has also damaged my family relations without diplomatically finding a solution to resolve them and in turn my family are now putting pressure on me to leave the marriage for the sake of my own happiness.


----------



## A Bit Much

The little things can erode a relationship. They become big things you can't get over. What you think are minor, for her are insurmountable.


----------



## A Bit Much

And how many more people outside looking in need to tell you to end this madness? Who else do you need to hear from that this is going nowhere, and all your trying and compromising will not net you the results you are looking for? A professional has told you, your family has told you, we have told you...

Your wife has told you, she wants a divorce. Give her what she wants and free yourself from this hell.


----------



## Nsweet

Your wife isn't even in it for the relationship any more. She's not even trying to reconcile like you wanted. She's just toying with you to get what she wants, and will still probably dump you for good when she's ready to move on and you aren't.

Why else do you think she's starting fights with your family and blaming you for everything? She's trying to create reasons to leave and make you the bad guy... because she's probably cheating, or checked out for good after her last little trip to China.


----------



## Eden1973

Ummm., you know I've continued to follow this thread & root for this marriage because ZZ desires it.

I just can't shake that something is more aloof here, more to the story as we mostly get one side, filtered through ZZ.

I tell you months & years of neglect can produce this monster. I believe ZZ's wife has built up resentment, see's her husband as very, very selfish tthus now the over bearing controlling behavior. She's grown tried of being second or third or fourth fiddle to his family, his job, his gym time, his bachelor pad, his tv watching, etc. etc. 

How much interaction do you have with her while with her or are you wrapped up still in you & your desires while in her presence the few times a week?

Do you help with dinner, the dishes? Why not talk with her during breakfast verses the tv show?

Idk, invite her here & let's hear her side so everyone is not so confused? Because honestly it's been mostly about one party's spin on everything?

Yeah & she's said over & over & over that you don't keep promises? Now you are a burden. Why? What promises? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Eden1973 said:


> Ummm., you know I've continued to follow this thread & root for this marriage because ZZ desires it.
> 
> I just can't shake that something is more aloof here, more to the story as we mostly get one side, filtered through ZZ.
> 
> I tell you months & years of neglect can produce this monster. I believe ZZ's wife has built up resentment, see's her husband as very, very selfish tthus now the over bearing controlling behavior. She's grown tried of being second or third or fourth fiddle to his family, his job, his gym time, his bachelor pad, his tv watching, etc. etc.
> 
> How much interaction do you have with her while with her or are you wrapped up still in you & your desires while in her presence the few times a week?
> 
> Do you help with dinner, the dishes? Why not talk with her during breakfast verses the tv show?
> 
> Idk, invite her here & let's hear her side so everyone is not so confused? Because honestly it's been mostly about one party's spin on everything?
> 
> Yeah & she's said over & over & over that you don't keep promises? Now you are a burden. Why? What promises?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sure I will answer these.

"months & years of neglect" - if I was not with her - I would always phone her up - she would seldom do this to me.

"How much interaction do you have with her" - I try at times to interact with her - but she can - if in a mood - be preoccupied with working, watching buddism videos or be praying.

"Do you help with dinner" - I offer - and at times have cut up vegetables - but often than not she wants to do everything. I did make some naan like things last sunday, although she can tell I don't have much experience, but none the less tried to learn from her.

"the dishes" - yes I do - in her method too.

"Why not talk with her during breakfast verses the tv show?" - she had started to pray at the time. I had put my headphones on and was watching something on a little laptop before going to work - I only had 15 mins.

"invite her here" - well I don't know if a) she would, b) its a good idea to show her all of this thread. 

"promises" - she wants me to comply to a set of guidelines, - going to bed early, doing house work, not watching stuff whilst having breakfast. She gets angry if I refute/don't comply to her requests. At the moment its almost like on thin ice all the time.


----------



## scatty

I know what you should give her for Christmas: divorce papers and a One-way ticket to China. That's probably what she wants anyway.


----------



## zeezack

scatty said:


> I know what you should give her for Christmas: divorce papers and a One-way ticket to China. That's probably what she wants anyway.


If she wants to divorce she can download and print the divorce papers herself, she has that choice. If she wants to sell the house and go back to China and rebuild her life there she has the choice.

I don't excuse her behaviour at all, but I am trying to understand it and also consider what the best action is to take for both of us.


----------



## zeezack

Nsweet said:


> Your wife isn't even in it for the relationship any more. She's not even trying to reconcile like you wanted. She's just toying with you to get what she wants, and will still probably dump you for good when she's ready to move on and you aren't.


I concur with some of this. I find it unsettling in the way she is trying to shape me into a perfect husband through threats of abandonment.



Nsweet said:


> Why else do you think she's starting fights with your family and blaming you for everything? She's trying to create reasons to leave and make you the bad guy... because she's probably cheating, or checked out for good after her last little trip to China.


I think she has generated negative feelings for my family for years, but not expressed it so blatantly until now. 

Although I do feel she wants me to be the one to pull the divorce papers out and pay for them. I find it strange how she seemed so adamant about divorce, then chose to let me back in and every now and then bounces it back to me - for me to have the choice to divorce. She did say this to me back in April - "I've lost my job, so you can divorce me now".

I really doubt she is cheating. My wife is completely against that kind of thing. Checked out maybe.

I do find it odd the way I am pushed and pulled. She wants me to live more with her in the house, and yet when I am there I get a cold reception.


----------



## SadandAngry

Would you agree that you have thoroughly explored the route of trying to be agreeable, of trying to meet her expectations and demands? I think it's clear that you have, and what results has that tactic produced overall? Not much of any. You are in the exact same place as when you first posted, if not worse.

Why not try a different tack? Why not assert yourself? I bet it would shock the hell out of her. At this point, it would shock the hell out of me! You should start by finding out where you stand legally. If you were in Canada, I believe both of you would legally have equal claim to both the house and the flat. They were both purchased during the marriage, thus they are joint assists regardless of whose name is on the paper. You are likely legally entitled to a key, and occupancy, whether your wife likes it or not. Why not go find out? What are you afraid of? Information is what you need. You may learn things that may explain what your wife is doing, the reason why she is waiting, but not really trying to repair your marriage. And again, you are deadset on allowing her to choose to file or not file, to let yourself remain in limbo waiting for her to make a choice. Why are you afraid of choosing? Have you not read any other stories on this forum? Have you any idea at all how unattractive that kind of passivity is? It is utterly repellant. If it is the case that she is testing you, you keep choosing to fail spectacularly. Do you have the faintest glimmering of realization about that? Google a sh!t test and see for yourself.


----------



## zeezack

I concur I have tried to meet expectations. There has been progress, but with each step she says or does something alarming. Did she mean it? Was she just angry or insecure? Is she passsive aggressive? I have tried to be assertive and put my foot down on how often I stay at the london flat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

Progress? Foot down?

Dude, you don't even have a key for your own house. You don't even consider it as your house. Have you really considered how screwy that is?

You are not asserting yourself. You are not demonstrating leadership. You are not even taking the first steps to demonstrate you could protect your wife, as you won't even protect yourself in any way that actually matters. And in failing to do that, you are failing to save your marriage. Have you considered the possibility that your wife wants a man, not a doormat?

What progress, really? That she kind of, sort of, reluctantly seems to tolerate your presence at home, if you follow her dictates? Progress in alienating your family? Progress in communication, in that she doesn't talk about meaningful solutions in person, rather than not talking while away? 

I'm being harsh, again, because from your status updates, there isn't actually any progress. She still wants a divorce. She still blames you and your family. You are still kept mostly in the dark, and are treated with passive aggression at best, but likely contempt, when you get right down to it. And you seem resigned to just go along for the ride, hoping for a change, but not really doing anything to precipitate a change. You expect her to do it. I think any change she makes now is more likely to be bad for you than good. She doesn't really have your well being in mind in her decision making process. You are being held at arms length at best, but not being cut loose either.

Why are you willing to accept that? What are you afraid of? What is the worst that could happen?


----------



## zeezack

If I take a defensive stance she gets angry. At the moment I am just trying to observe and correct if need be if that anger is warranted. I have not looked into legal aspects yet.I don't think my wife is waiting on purpose, her body clock is ticking
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I have asked for a key specifically and I have given her the option of dating other men. I talk about progress in terms of the separation has been llifted, actually gaining access to house and trying to talk like adults about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

You are right in some of things you say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Last sunday was the first day for a long time where we felt like a couple. Did food shopping together. Ate a meal out, did some christmas shopping, even took a few pictures of us in front of Reindeer. Just take things one step at a time, see what happens after Christmas really. How she and the family connect or not this season.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Christmas eve was a bit shaky, as my wife continued to roll her eyes near my sisters precense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Christmas day went ok. My wife was very respectful to my grand parents. Me, my dad and uncle helped my grandad in and around the house. I feel my wife struggles to enjoy the christmas day. She has not yet opened her presents.

Boxing day morning. I asked my wife to also take her access card for the hotel room. She got in a strop and put her coat on - unhappy with my request as she had no pockets. Before resolving the conflict she left the room without me and went down to lobby on her own to start breakfast without me. I soon joined her but expressed that I was not happy in the way she just left me like that. She told me to shut up, I finished my sentence and said no in defence. She picked up her breakfast and sat elsewhere. I followed and resumed breakfast without talking. She then left and paid for her breakfast seperately.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nsweet

You're still chasing her.


----------



## zeezack

When back at the room, I didn't apologise but did try and list my reasons for my own behavour. Again just as I finished my sentence she put her ear plugs in. Its been 3 hours since and she is not talking to me at the moment. We have now left the hotel with my family and are on the way to my aunty's. I have not told my family of this incident - but my sister all morning has been advising me to leave my wife, that she will leave me and that I won't see or have much say with any children we have. I am trying to be patient and non-aggressive at this time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Yes nsweet, I am responsible for her and the arrangments this morning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nsweet

No, you don't get it. You're following her around at breakfast like a little puppy needing attention. And you keep trying to get in her face to argue about what you want not being what she wants. That's why she's ignoring you. It's disrespectful! You want her back but you don't want to hear what she has to say or accept her terms as your own. You just want her to do things your way, and when that doesn't work you tell yourself you're trying everything (but agreeing with her) and then come on here to rationalize how you're still such a "nice guy". It's the same thing you keep doing. 

I promise you if you would just walk away from her when she's being a b!tch to you, and then tell her you're going to do things her way when she's ready to talk, she will have a new found respect for you. And if you stop chasing her and tell her you're done she will turn around and start trying to negotiate a way back in. She may not necessarily want this divorce from the sounds of it, but she really doesn't want you right now. 

Think about how you appear to her always acting needy and arguing with her about her decision to leave. Now think how she would think differently of you if you were very agreeable and harder to get a hold of because you found your self-esteem again and realized you don't like to chase after anyone who does not want anything to do with you.


----------



## zeezack

I didn't argue about her decision and I have not reacted to her silent treatment either way. I have a right to tell her I think its sad we can't have a civlised breakfast together - like we did yesterday - over a small thing. I have not invoked her further. She is sitting in the passenger seat at the moment, not engaging with anyone. I've told her 5 days ago she has my permission to date other men. She has this option if she wants. At the moment we are in close quaters due to the events of today. We have current plans to see her friend tomorrow and my friend later tomorrow. If she wants to of course.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I came on here to update the situation, not to have praise or critism for being a nice guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

On Christmas day, as my sister gave her present to me, my wife sat there with her eyes closed as if she was medidating. But she was very good with my grand parents and they appreciated that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

Hopeless.


----------



## Tron

Zeezack,

Not to browbeat you, but I see no recognizable improvement in this marriage since your first post on 9/18. 

This is the view sitting up at 50,000' ---> 3 months without any progress doing it your way. You are still miserable and your W is still a b*tch.


----------



## TheCuriousWife

I think it's cultural, but I've read this thread several times, and I just don't understand the situation at all. :scratchhead:

I don't understand why a wife and husband were living apart in the first place? I get that she bought a house, but I just don't understand why you lived apart.

That is just so weird to me, what is the point of marriage if you only see the person on the weekends.

Of course is wants a divorce. She is a Chinese woman, in a completely different culture, alone most of the time.

You live apart to give her space for work??

Your married, she's not your roommate. Why do you need to live part to work? 


She freaks out because you eat dinner and watch tv at the same time and she is worried it will be passed down to the children.

Geez.
There is serious communication problems and cultural differences. 

My western mind just can't wrap around all this.


----------



## zeezack

We were living in a shared rental accomodation. She bought the house (which I felt was in the sticks, far from work, friends, family, lifestyle). I carried out the rental contract until a year was up and I was granted my own mortgage. I bought a flat with my wife's permission in the city; she then initated a separation.

Boxing day ended bad. My sister pushed for an answer when I will see her again. I said let me consider the arrangements. But my sister kept on pushing the issue in front of my wife; my wife then errupted and said that she is the villain, that I will be available because I won't be at the house. She said that in front of my mother. My family soon left my aunty's, my sister texted me she went home crying and that I'm not to bother trying to meet up. My aunty consoled my wife
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Me and my wife stayed the night in the london flat. We are about to have breakfast and plan to see her friends today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sh987

It's almost as if you were warned against taking your wife to your family's Christmas gathering.

Z - I'm the last guy to tell people that (outside of abuse) should be getting divorced, but honestly... What are you getting out of this marriage?

I'm sorry about your troubles, Z. I mean that. I think that everybody has been giving you a lot of solid advice, and things are only changed in that she abuses you in person rather than email.


----------



## TheCuriousWife

I don't understand why you keep trying to push your wife and your family together.

I also don't understand why your family should know anything about your wife and personal life in the first place.

Your family is way too involved.

Have you ever seen the tv show called "Everybody Loves Raymond?"

That is what this reminds me of.

When you got married you joined with your wife. She should be the most important person in your life, and this should have never gotten started in the first place. When your family said something nasty about your wife you should have said, "Excuse me, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't talk about my wife. Otherwise I will stop visiting/communicating with you." Or something along those lines.

It's the same with your wife. If she said something mean, just cooly remind her that they are your family, and you'd rather she not say anything about them if she can't say something nice.

That said, I think your wife is way too different from you for this marriage to work.

I don't know if she is just a selfish and cold person, or if it's a cultural thing. But I can't see this going anywhere good.

Just my 2 cents. I hope this works out for the best for you.


----------



## zeezack

Well we had a good day today. Went to the Victoria & Albert museum, had a look at the Chinese art paintings. She has warmed up more to me. Holding my hand etc.. I do find myself having to mediate time between my wife and my sister, who is soon going back to Malaysia
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rubpy3

ZZ, my stbx is also Chinese. Perhaps this quote from her may help you understand how she feels. I followed your thread closely, and only comment I wish to make is that you are perhaps the main, if not the only reason, that she is still in this country. You need to make her the priority in your life. Your attachment to your parents, sisters, and uncles is ridiculously strong, even by Chinese standard.



> Hubby, when you emphasize that you are going to become an expat in Korea, have you thought about that I have been an expat overseas for years now, no family [comment: her parents lives in US for a month or two every year], few friends. You are like my only confidant. We have each other's back no matter what. Have you ever considered that although I am acting like a strong woman (or life forces becoming one), sometimes I may feel weak and desperate? I am not getting any younger, no business, no career, no saving, absolutely nothing. There is nothing I can do to change my circumstance. But you are drifting further and further away.


----------



## rubpy3

> Boxing day ended bad. My sister pushed for an answer when I will see her again. I said let me consider the arrangements. But my sister kept on pushing the issue in front of my wife; my wife then errupted and said that she is the villain, that I will be available because I won't be at the house. She said that in front of my mother. My family soon left my aunty's, my sister texted me she went home crying and that I'm not to bother trying to meet up. My aunty consoled my wife


Jesus Z, why are you letting your family walk all over your wife? Why are you just sitting there so damn passively like you are watching some soap opera? What's so hard just tell your sister "I'll talk to my wife about it later, we'll let you know?"

The problem is that you are not taking any sides. You are watching a damned soap opera unfold. You are watching your wife and family battle it out and you are just watching it.

Ask your wife, there's an idiom in Chinese that's something like "watching the fire from across the river". You are doing exactly that. You are so damned entertained by the family fights and you are watching them all so gleefully, you forgot you are the one who needs to be actively reenforcing space, peace, and respect.


----------



## zeezack

Well rubpy, I do try not to take a passive stance. Events happen very fast and my wife and sister do dominate. I tried to calm my wife before she fully errupted but she overruled and had her say. Things have calmed since. My wife at least had an amicable conversation with my mother - thanking her for the gifts. My sister has also calmed a bit and has resumed conversations with me. It is hard when my sister pushes a response in minutes and my wife labels herself the villain and a near separation again. I'm grateful my Aunty consoled her. We have been able to have 3 fairly calming days. Again my wife is the only person to control her own behavour. If she chooses to sit in front of my sister (whilst my sister is giving me my gift) with her eyes closed like a deactivated terminator, not much I can do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rubpy3

ZZ - I'm not sure if you are aware of the concept or not, but in Chinese culture, a married daughter is like "water that's poured out to the streets". The daughter is expected to be part of the husband's family now. For better or for worse, she is expected to stick with it, as it is part of her martial duty. If you were to be more involved with the Chinese community, you will hear endless horror stories of wife not getting along with sister in laws, mother in law, etc. From the sound of the thread, your wife had done a remarkable job of sticking by you, although I'm not sure if you really deserve her fidelity or not.

Traditional women are expected to "live with it". Is she the only child of her family? She was probably the crown jewel of her family when growing up - center of the attention, pampered and spoilt. Then she gets married to you. You have an excuse for everything. Everything has a reason, so it's ok. I feel you are such a nice, meek, and non-confronational guy who is just too rounded - you don't have any edge left. Yeah, you believe in open communication and honesty, so you open up your marriage to your family. You are very polite and non confrontational, you let two hot headed women in your family to control the situation. You obsessively try to control the development of the big picture, rather than controlling individual relations and letting the results be.

Traditional Asian women had no way out of marriage so they live with it. Modern ones want divorce when they aren't getting what they want. She wants a relationship with you first, with your family second. Why can't you just be on her side for once? Before she has a chance to call your sister a villain, why don't you jump in? You already know they are both hot headed. Avoidance is the best thing, but diversion and distraction has its place as well.


----------



## bandit.45

Why don't you just marry your sister OP? She seems strangely possessive of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Rubpy my wife called herself a villain. Jump in? I can't stop people from saying what they want to say. I tried to extinguish the situation but my wife became hot tempered. My wife knows her choices; she has a much younger brother - so for a time she was the only child. I have spent this holiday with my wife, as I had always planned on doing. It is my wife who becomes hot tempered and in reaction pushes me away. My older sister is just protective of me; me and my wife have just been through a separation, but it may in turn have been provoked by my sister defending my parents. Also my wife claiming her cultural ground in the way she did, did not help matters. My wife basically scorned my sister as the result of bad parent hood and western cultural influences. As for your comment bandit, I have no comment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rubpy3

Z, all I'm saying is that even within Chinese culture, hell with any culture, conflicts occur between spouses and their in-laws. What you have is a hot tempered wife with a hot tempered in-laws. Don't defend either one. Your wife is as ill tempered as is your sister a needlessly provocative. Your uncle is also an egoistical character whose completely full of himself.

The question is, what are you going to do. You can continue to be the nice guy and try setting up situations where they spend time together. Or you just accept the fact that you have to pursue your relationship with your sister / wife independent of the other. 

One comment made by my stbx is that couples have made a lifetime commitment with each other - what happens for a few months or a few year is a small percentage.

Why don't you focus completely on your wife for some time? If you want to spend time with your family, go ahead.. just damn, stop dragging your wife together with your family? Are you that needy and insecure?


----------



## Starstarfish

> My older sister is _just_ protective of me


It's the language you use, OP. Your wife has choices and made a choice to be hot-tempered, but the same behavior in your sister is dismissed (just/only/merely are dismissive words) as just being protective. 

It's the same thing that's been shown throughout this thread, the same behavior by your wife you view with a more critical lens than of your family. And I'm guessing that comes across a lot more obviously than you may realize.


----------



## TheCuriousWife

I agree with everything being said.

Your either going to have to take a step back from your sister and commit to your wife.

Or your going to have to take a step from your wife and commit to your family.

It will be your choice. You don't seen to be capable of both. At least until you can set up some boundaries, and stop being the "nice guy."


----------



## VFW

Dude you have an excuse for everything. There is nothing I can do is your attitude. BS you could, you just don't. When your sister confronted your wife, you should have told her to sit down and mind her own business, that this was not the place and time. Instead you left her to the wolves again. It seems it is all of you against her and your lack of response means you are with them and not her. Has she made mistakes? I am quite sure, but you have yet in this thread to take on any responsibility for anything. 

Your sister and mother think you are a little boy, that is why they feel that they have to stand up for poor little you. If you want your wife to respect you, then you need to earn it and stand up for her for a change. Your family can feel and think whatever they want, but if they respect you, then they have to so respect to her. Your wife is correct though, this marriage can't work, because you won't do that and will only come up with another excuse why you can't do anything.


----------



## zeezack

Hello VFW, interesting comment, although it doesn't fit the reality of what actually happened or the problems my wife has with my family, my sister in particular.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I did meet with my sister yesterday, as she is about to fly back to Malaysia. Although she said comments like, don't have children with your wife, I hate her etc.. I said to my sister that she is still my wife and that I feel although I can not excuse my wife's downfalls, I still love her and want to support her. That I can choose to live as a bachelor in the london flat, and although I didn't choose the location of the maternal home, my choice to remain with my wife is mine. That my sister should not feel I am taking sides. I stood by and supported my wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

Was your wife present for your astonishing display of fortitude and courage?


----------



## Coffee Amore

zeezack said:


> I did meet with my sister yesterday, as she is about to fly back to Malaysia. Although she said comments like, don't have children with your wife, I hate her etc.. I said to my sister that she is still my wife and that I feel although I can not excuse my wife's downfalls, I still love her and want to support her. That I can choose to live as a bachelor in the london flat, and although I didn't choose the location of the maternal home, my choice to remain with my wife is mine. That my sister should not feel I am taking sides. I stood by and supported my wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess for you this is a bold move. 

For me, this wouldn't have gone far enough. I would have said more in support of my spouse. I would also have made it clear I don't want interference from them and such interference/nasty comments won't be tolerated.


----------



## rubpy3

zeezack said:


> Hello VFW, interesting comment, although it doesn't fit the reality of what actually happened or the problems my wife has with my family, my sister in particular.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


VFW summarizes it pretty well, wish I summarized it so well. Stand up for your wife in public, then talk to her in private. 

Imagine if a stranger is attacking your wife in public. You don't try to understand and diffuse the situation; even if your wife is wrong you don't publicly demand her to apologize to the aggressor. You defend your wife anyway possible first, then ask questions later when you two are alone. 

When your sister, uncle, mother, father, whoever, is jumping on your wife, you defend your wife first even if she is wrong; but if her behavior is wrong you deal with it behind doors when it's just two of you.


----------



## Tron

rubpy3 said:


> Imagine if a stranger is attacking your wife in public. You don't try to understand and diffuse the situation; even if your wife is wrong you don't publicly demand her to apologize to the aggressor. You defend your wife anyway possible first, then ask questions later when you two are alone.
> 
> When your sister, uncle, mother, father, whoever, is jumping on your wife, you defend your wife first even if she is wrong; but if her behavior is wrong you deal with it behind doors when it's just two of you.


If this M is going to turn around, I think this is the way to do it.


----------



## zeezack

Tron said:


> If this M is going to turn around, I think this is the way to do it.


This is all easier said then done, when you wife calls herself a villain in front of your family members just before boxing day ends. I do my best to console both fronts.

On the whole we spent the holiday together without too much glitches. Although my wife does realize she is not a saint and needs to work on things.

When I do spot out passive aggressive behaviors though it becomes a circular argument with her.

- like abandonment, silent treatment

She has warmed up more, but as my sister can see - "the pendulum of compromise" is not yet swinging half way per say.

A) I still have no key to the house -which falls a bit on to point b.
B) She still wants a substantial amount of financial support from me each month. Which still causes a conflict if I try and debate it; deviate from her plan. She also still seems very amendment not to put any money into our joint savings account. I don't mind providing some directly into her account - like 30-50% of what she is asking, but I would rather cipher off the remaining into our joint savings - for emergencies really.


----------



## SaltInWound

zeezack said:


> This is all easier said then done, when you wife calls herself a villain in front of your family members just before boxing day ends. I do my best to console both fronts.
> 
> On the whole we spent the holiday together without too much glitches. Although my wife does realize she is not a saint and needs to work on things.
> 
> When I do spot out passive aggressive behaviors though it becomes a circular argument with her.
> 
> - like abandonment, silent treatment
> 
> She has warmed up more, but as my sister can see - "the pendulum of compromise" is not yet swinging half way per say.
> 
> A) I still have no key to the house -which falls a bit on to point b.
> B) She still wants a substantial amount of financial support from me each month. Which still causes a conflict if I try and debate it; deviate from her plan. She also still seems very amendment not to put any money into our joint savings account. I don't mind providing some directly into her account - like 30-50% of what she is asking, but I would rather cipher off the remaining into our joint savings - for emergencies really.


Tell her you will discuss the finances when you get a key to the house.


----------



## rubpy3

> I said to my sister that she is still my wife and that I feel although I can not excuse my wife's downfalls,





> This is all easier said then done, when you wife calls herself a villain in front of your family members just before boxing day ends. I do my best to console both fronts.





> She has warmed up more, but as my sister can see - "the pendulum of compromise" is not yet swinging half way per say.


Yeah, how dare your wife defend herself against the wise sister when you are silent. How dare your wife speak out at all when without your sister giving her permission. The wife has no manners and is a lost cause. Your wife had fallen so hard that she should be grateful that you are still taking her sides against the sister.

ZZ, you really don't see how manipulative your sister is? You still wonder why your wife thinks your family gangs up against her? If you would rather listen to your sister all day long, why not divorce your wife and be done with it?


----------



## zeezack

rubpy3 said:


> Yeah, how dare your wife defend herself against the wise sister when you are silent. How dare your wife speak out at all when without your sister giving her permission. The wife has no manners and is a lost cause. Your wife had fallen so hard that she should be grateful that you are still taking her sides against the sister.
> 
> ZZ, you really don't see how manipulative your sister is? You still wonder why your wife thinks your family gangs up against her? If you would rather listen to your sister all day long, why not divorce your wife and be done with it?


My sister is just angry - and defensive. Ironically they have similar intentions, come from different cultures, and each consider the other inconsiderate and in due respect there are reasons for and against.


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> My sister is* just* angry - and defensive. Ironically they have similar intentions, come from different cultures, and each consider the other inconsiderate and in due respect there are reasons for and against.


just?



Starstarfish said:


> It's the language you use, OP. *Your wife has choices and made a choice to be hot-tempered*, but the same behavior in your sister is dismissed (just/only/merely are dismissive words) as just being protective.
> 
> It's the same thing that's been shown throughout this thread, the same behavior by your wife you view with a more critical lens than of your family. And I'm guessing that comes across a lot more obviously than you may realize.


^^QFT. 

Have you looked into IC to detach from the unhealthy enmeshment with your family of origin?


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> just?
> 
> 
> 
> ^^QFT.
> 
> Have you looked into IC to detach from the unhealthy enmeshment with your family of origin?


I state again - I do not have an unhealthy enmeshment with my family. I don't know what your situation is, and how your family dynamic works or would work with the same issues.

I am the youngest in my family and my older sister is not married. Its been a rocky journey on many fronts, through cause and effect on both sides.

My sister has some real life concerns and scenarios that could play out if me and my wife separate or divorce. Like the children going to China and me not having contact or limited control of the situation. I've already lost control as to where the maternal home is and who owns it. My sister merely claims its not a fair scenario.


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> My sister merely claims its not a fair scenario.






Starstarfish said:


> It's the language you use, OP. Your wife has choices and made a choice to be hot-tempered, but the same behavior in your sister is dismissed (just/only/merely are dismissive words) as just being protective.


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> I state again -* I do not have an unhealthy enmeshment with my family*. I don't know what your situation is, and how your family dynamic works or would work with the same issues.


*^^denial* IMO

*My* family is my husband and children.

I see members of my FOO (family of origin) rarely and I like it that way. My family is... dysfunctional. There are members of my family who would have been as intrusive and destructive as your sister and mother if I allowed it. I don't allow it.


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> I state again - I do not have an unhealthy enmeshment with my family. I don't know what your situation is, and how your family dynamic works or would work with the same issues.
> 
> I am the youngest in my family and my older sister is not married. Its been a rocky journey on many fronts, through cause and effect on both sides.
> 
> My sister has some real life concerns and scenarios that could play out if me and my wife separate or divorce. Like the children going to China and me not having contact or limited control of the situation. I've already lost control as to where the maternal home is and who owns it. My sister merely claims its not a fair scenario.


Why on earth are you worried about kids?! You don't even have a union in any real sense other than on paper! It would be the height of stupidity to engage in any act that could produce a pregnancy at this juncture.


----------



## treyvion

zeezack said:


> I did meet with my sister yesterday, as she is about to fly back to Malaysia. Although she said comments like, don't have children with your wife, I hate her etc.. I said to my sister that she is still my wife and that I feel although I can not excuse my wife's downfalls, I still love her and want to support her. That I can choose to live as a bachelor in the london flat, and although I didn't choose the location of the maternal home, my choice to remain with my wife is mine. That my sister should not feel I am taking sides. I stood by and supported my wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why it gets so messy to discuss these things to people surrounding the situation, burn bridges that you may need later, also put those thoughts and that image into their memory and you have to relive it everytime you speak.

Tough tough situations...


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> *^^denial* IMO
> 
> *My* family is my husband and children.
> 
> I see members of my FOO (family of origin) rarely and I like it that way. My family is... dysfunctional. There are members of my family who would have been as intrusive and destructive as your sister and mother if I allowed it. I don't allow it.


In my honest opinion, it looks like you have not found a way to really compromise with your family of origin and your own. Your "solution is to rarely see them", which is almost border line escapism from any problems that could arise.

My family is not like that; at least at this time. Also take into consideration I am likely to be 20-30 years younger so my position in the family unit as a whole is very different. My family host a variety of occasions which include extended family members; conflicts are inevitable.

I would like to balance things - but my wife's family is in China.


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> Why on earth are you worried about kids?! You don't even have a union in any real sense other than on paper! It would be the height of stupidity to engage in any act that could produce a pregnancy at this juncture.


Yes I understand that. My wife is 34 and she wanted to have children. We got married 3 years ago - where we had both considered to have children together. But yes, lack of union, separation puts things out of spec.


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> In my honest opinion, it looks like you have not found a way to really compromise with your family of origin and your own. Your "solution is to rarely see them", which is almost border line escapism from any problems that could arise.
> 
> My family is not like that; at least at this time. Also take into consideration I am likely to be 20-30 years younger so my position in the family unit as a whole is very different. My family host a variety of occasions which include extended family members; conflicts are inevitable.
> 
> I would like to balance things - but my wife's family is in China.


My dad (despite my having seen him less than a dozen times in the past 35 years) has managed to do some very toxic and destructive things to my older children. I stand up to him and stand up for my children and have successfully mitigated the potential damage and role modeled healthy boundaries for the children.

Your family is scary Zeezack and if I was your wife I would RUN the other way! Any children of your union are in grave danger from your toxic family because *YOU* don't see how toxic they are, stand up to them and call them on their bullying, and create a healthy and safe distance for your wife and family.


----------



## zeezack

Still going through turbulent times with my wife really.

I've tried to compromise by living in the London flat 2 days a week for learning Chinese and work purposes.

My wife claimed yesterday evening that my efforts to learn Chinese is an excuse to stay in London more. That my efforts are not enough to learn the language. I revise at least once a week alongside other work commitments.

I'm trying to be patient but every now and then I get a complaint about remaining in London for a bachelor life and still get criticism over my family. My family and her and have not had any contact for nearly 20 days and yet my wife still brings it up. We are still sleeping in separate rooms and I have still yet to be given a key to the house.

Even if I am able to leave work at 17:30, the earliest time without the aid of a taxi I can get to the house has been 19:00. We then go to bed at 21:00. So on average spend 2.5 hours in the evening with each other if that.


----------



## zeezack

This morning, I came downstairs for breakfast and in 5 minutes my wife said I could go back to London. I sat there quietly and she then said 'I"ll help you pack'. She then went around the house and flled up bags with my belongings. I said why do you want me to leave now, she said because - 'you can not keep your promises'. She then calmed down and I said 'I will go if you want me to'. She cried for a bit then said get ready to go shopping. I am in town now with her, buying food.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

We are now home and she has talked about having children, what her parents have advised - in terms of driving etc..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

So you keep doing the same thing, and are surprised that nothing has changed?

Why don't you call her bluff for once? Go see a lawyer, get the papers prepared. Split everything right down the middle, including the flat and the house. (Do you even feel entitled to a key for the house? It is half yours you know, being purchased while you were married and all, right?)


----------



## Nsweet

SadandAngry said:


> *So you keep doing the same thing, and are surprised that nothing has changed?*
> 
> Why don't you call her bluff for once? Go see a lawyer, get the papers prepared. Split everything right down the middle, including the flat and the house. (Do you even feel entitled to a key for the house? It is half yours you know, being purchased while you were married and all, right?)


That's what everyone keeps telling him, but he just won't listen to reason. 

I've been following Zeezack's story for a while now and every time his wife shows him a glimmer of hope he latches onto that as proof she's coming around. But then when she tells him to get out or gives him a bunch of sh!t tests and hoops to jump through he does it, reports back to TAM, and tells us all how he's such a good husband for putting up with her. 

Good luck trying to tell him his wife isn't a perfect Chinese snowflake or worth fighting for because he will go on the defensive and attack you, then he'll just turn around and tells us more of how he's doing everything and how he thinks his wife is turning around and loving him again. 

She's not ever going to reconcile either. She's going to string poor Zeezack along and divorce him like she planned. She's practically pushing him away for no reason now, and Zeezack just doesn't get it that when he's super sweet and nice to his wife she doesn't want him. It's like she's so insecure she hates Zeezack for loving her. If Zeezack would just stand up to her once she might start respecting him again, but I seriously doubt he's got it in him.


----------



## zeezack

Stop being pedantic guys. Just keeping you posted on the latest events, good/bad. I'm not going to run to a lawyer each time my wife flips. As I said - I feel she is going through a phase of maternal/cultural insecurity. There is a form of reconcilation taking place. We are living together more, but yes there are still problems forming a uniomn
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

No offense Zeezack but this has all the elements of 3 months of lather, rinse, repeat.

Is there a reconciliation going on here? Not sure I see one, but OK.

What we do see is a man who has an unhealthy attachment to his family that at least on the surface is starting to recognize it and do something about it.

We also see a woman who is rigid, a user, unstable and whose emotions toward you don't resemble love in the least. She wont do counseling, doesn't listen to you, does whatever she wants including playing ping pong with your life and your emotions. And you allow it.

When do you take a stand?


----------



## Tron

And for all that is holy, please don't bring children into this mess of a marriage.


----------



## SadandAngry

Answer the question about the house. Why don't you have a key to your own house? Do you not see how ****ing ridiculous that is? 

You are walking on eggshells, hoping to please the dragon, and not get burned when she breathes fire. What kind of a life is that? Have you read any other stories on this board? Go check out Coping With Infidelity, because one of you will crack, sooner or later. Check out Long term success, to see what a marriage should be like.

Have you read any books? Gone for counselling? Gotten the first clue, beyond a stab in the dark, as to what your wife is thinking? All you've ever given here is BS guesses, or her lame excuses.


----------



## Blonde

IIRC his wife bought her country house with money from her parents (not Zeezack). Are you on the deed or mortgage of her house, Zee? His wife did this unilaterally after a long period of Z's indecisiveness with accomodations which had her sleeping ON THE FLOOR in a rented bedsit.

Then Z bought a London flat.

Soooo, they have "his and hers" houses.

Sell the London flat and live with your wife. A married couple should live together. I expect she would give you the key if you were a husband who lived at home instead of this long distance marriage you have set up.


----------



## bandit.45

Blonde said:


> My dad (despite my having seen him less than a dozen times in the past 35 years) has managed to do some very toxic and destructive things to my older children. I stand up to him and stand up for my children and have successfully mitigated the potential damage and role modeled healthy boundaries for the children.
> 
> Your family is scary Zeezack and if I was your wife I would RUN the other way! Any children of your union are in grave danger from your toxic family because *YOU* don't see how toxic they are, stand up to them and call them on their bullying, and create a healthy and safe distance for your wife and family.


First time I've ever agreed with you. 

I need to mark this day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

Blonde said:


> IIRC his wife bought her country house with money from her parents (not Zeezack). Are you on the deed or mortgage of her house, Zee? His wife did this unilaterally after a long period of Z's indecisiveness with accomodations which had her sleeping ON THE FLOOR in a rented bedsit.
> 
> Then Z bought a London flat.
> 
> Soooo, they have "his and hers" houses


Where the money came from doesn't matter. Whose name is on the paper doesn't matter. Unless they have an ironclad prenuptial agreement, both places are assets of the marriage. They both have an equal interest in both places, from a legal standpoint. And they are legally married, that's about it. They sure don't behave like it.


----------



## zeezack

The facts are twisted here. Blonde you have the sequence of events and reasons wrong.

Married 2010. Rented in a bedsit for a year to save for a house. At the time its what I had in london, she had no job and the savings we had were to go towards the house. 2012, we had more savings had to leave the bedsit as the landlord wanted to rennovate. I was self employed 1 year - trippled my earnings. We moved to a studio in june 2012, signed a joint tennacy. 2-3 months later she bought a house in the country on her own, with her own side of the deposit. No I am not on the deeds, not on her mortgage. I continued to live in the rented accomodation - because as I have said - I often work late hours, sometimes including weekends. No holidays. On her agreement I bought the studio flat in london and ended tenancy in aug 2013. The week I got the keys to the flat my wife iniated a separation. 

Now I am making the effort to live with my wife in the country home at least 4-5 days a week. 1 day in london I do an evening course learning chinese. 1 day gives me the option to work later if need be.

No I don't have a key yet. Yes I said to her how riddiculas this is.
I spoke to her today about it. Around 4pm today she started to look at properties around the london area, schools and what the regions are like. Its possible my work could be anywhere in london, placing me south london, leaving later - I may not make it back to the country home gone past 20:20. Anyway we have decided to view 2 places with 4 bedrooms in London, next weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

Has she explained which promises she feels you are failing to keep yet?


----------



## zeezack

Yes, I find my wife unstable at times. I've given her the option for me to go for good. But she has requested me to stay. She has shown signs of compassion, hot meals and loving care as of recent. She has also considered other places to buy in the future. I am trying my best to keep earning and saving for a brighter future. But with demands like learning to drive and excel in a language and carry on work comitments its stretching me like spaggeti.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Her promises relate to very personal health issues - like sleeping early and no porn/self pleasuring. To the chinese they should abide to this 3 months before trying for a child. Its very important to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nsweet

What have you been doing for you Zeezack? 

You're doing everything for your wife to get her to reconcile, at the expense of your own happiness. You're trying to learn her language, buy a house for the both of you, going to counseling, and bending over backwards to please her when she doesn't want you. But what are you doing for yourself?

I guess what I'm asking is what you doing that is *non-codependent*?


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> Her promises relate to very personal health issues - like sleeping early and no porn/self pleasuring. To the chinese they should abide to this 3 months before trying for a child. Its very important to her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please don't tell us you think things would right themselves if only she got pregnant.


----------



## Blonde

So, now the money for the house came out of a joint savings acct? That is not what I understood:



zeezack said:


> I was shocked when she bought the house by herself. I did want to do things jointly, and didn't want her to use her parents money as a loan etc... She grew tired of her belongings sitting in crates at my parents house and she wanted to establish a nest for future children. She claimed she did it for us and for a time we were making it work.


How much of the money for her house came from her parents?


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> No I don't have a key yet. Yes I said to her how riddiculas this is.
> I spoke to her today about it. Around 4pm today she started to look at properties around the london area, schools and what the regions are like. Its possible my work could be anywhere in london, placing me south london, leaving later - I may not make it back to the country home gone past 20:20. Anyway we have decided to view 2 places with 4 bedrooms in London, next weekend.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's not ridiculous to her. She wanted a nest and you should have done the above in the first place instead of ignoring her regarding her desire. You took too long and she took matters into her own hands. I do that when my H procrastinates @ something that is very important to me and causing me distress (sleeping on the floor in a bedsit for a year would qualify!!!)

If you can sell the two properties and agree on one together, well, maybe you will both learn an expensive lesson on the importance of listening to each other and working together as a team.


----------



## Blonde

> Anyway we have decided to view 2 places with 4 bedrooms in London, next weekend.


LOL 
FOUR bedrooms???

She really hated being cramped! Maybe someday when this is all behind you, you can tell your children about all the drama of bedsit to mansion.


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> So, now the money for the house came out of a joint savings acct? That is not what I understood:
> 
> 
> How much of the money for her house came from her parents?



None came from the joint account. She paid for the house using her own pot. Her deposit came from her parents. I have no investment in the house. As I say I signed for a joint tenancy and was paying rent for us both and then she tells me she is buying a house out of the city.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> Please don't tell us you think things would right themselves if only she got pregnant.


I didn't say that. But as I felt before the separation took place - my wife is concerned for her biological clock.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> It's not ridiculous to her. She wanted a nest and you should have done the above in the first place instead of ignoring her regarding her desire. You took too long and she took matters into her own hands. I do that when my H procrastinates @ something that is very important to me and causing me distress (sleeping on the floor in a bedsit for a year would qualify!!!)
> 
> If you can sell the two properties and agree on one together, well, maybe you will both learn an expensive lesson on the importance of listening to each other and working together as a team.


Before I put money down on the london flat - I said to her May 2013 - why don't we just sell the house and wait to get a joint mortgage on a place. I was prepared to stop the buy and get a place for her, she refused and this led to part of her reasons to want to separate. I have tried to work as a team the entire time, she refused to do things jointly. The studio I rented was bigger and for a time it worked, but she complained about it and didn't want to wait for a year before I became legiable for a mortgage. I had trouble with perm jobs since 2007 and decided to go self employed 2010. But my company was founded 2011, and had to wait 2 years
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> LOL
> FOUR bedrooms???
> 
> She really hated being cramped! Maybe someday when this is all behind you, you can tell your children about all the drama of bedsit to mansion.


I was a bit shocked to see her actually looking properties up. Its a real needle - because she wants a house (ideally) and doesn't want to be on the underground long. Which is a tall order for anything under 500k. So things on the edge of the underground are dismissed quickly. But hey we are scheduled to look at least at two places next weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nsweet

Zeezack *DO NOT* buy that house!!!! 

Your wife is stringing you along and she's get you to buy a huge house so she can take it away from you during the divorce. 

*How can you not see this is what is going to happen????*

Do not buy any property, any cars, anything you don't want to lose until you are 100% sure you wife is 100% reconciled to you. And for the love of God don't get her pregnant!


----------



## Blonde

Nsweet said:


> Zeezack *DO NOT* buy that house!!!!
> 
> Your wife is stringing you along and she's get you to buy a huge house so she can take it away from you during the divorce.
> 
> *How can you not see this is what is going to happen????*


I don't hear anything in the thread indicating she is a gold digger.

To the contrary, Z's wife sounds like she has deeper pockets than he does if I am reading between the lines accurately. She bought a house completely on her own with parental assistance with downpayment BEFORE Z qualified for a mortgage.

So go ahead, Z sell the two and buy one together. JMO if Z wants a go at an intact M with her.


----------



## Troubledtimes

I'm with the others on this one, hold off on all major joint financial and life decisions till your relationship is great. That means no buying houses together and certainly not having children together. Did you look at renting a place for both of you for the short term as an alternative? Please don't bring a child into this rocky relationship, no matter what her biological clock reads.


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> None came from the joint account. She paid for the house using her own pot. Her deposit came from her parents. I have no investment in the house. As I say I signed for a joint tenancy and was paying rent for us both and then she tells me she is buying a house out of the city.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you have a pre nup? If not, that piece of paper that says you are married means you are invested in that house, 50%.


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> Do you have a pre nup? If not, that piece of paper that says you are married means you are invested in that house, 50%.


There is no pre nup agreement. My family suggested it and my wife at the time was offended by it, feeling my family didn't show much faith in the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

Well then, there you go. You have 50% invested in that house, but you don't actually believe that do you? If you did, you'd have a key to your own damned house, wouldn't you?

Why don't you download yourself a copy of No More Mr. Nice Guy, and read it on the underground over the next little while. It may give you something to think about.

How long are you willing to twist in the wind? How much are you going to invest in such an awful existence, without concrete improvement? What you think you've gained, that's not an improvement. From the outside looking in, nothing has changed really. That's my honest opinion of what you describe, I have nothing to gain or lose either way. Neither does nsweet, nor blonde, nor anyone else givng you our opinion. I think you deserve better than what you are living. I think unless you act differently, as in do something you think you should not, your marriage is toast. What you have done, and continue to do, will get you the dame results. It isn't working. Explore other options. Or don't. Continue to report on your slow spiral into marital hell. Somebody will read it.


----------



## zeezack

Nsweet said:


> What have you been doing for you Zeezack?
> 
> You're doing everything for your wife to get her to reconcile, at the expense of your own happiness. You're trying to learn her language, buy a house for the both of you, going to counseling, and bending over backwards to please her when she doesn't want you. But what are you doing for yourself?
> 
> I guess what I'm asking is what you doing that is *non-codependent*?


I have the choice to stay in a central london flat where most of my belongings are, around the corner from work. I currently have a good contract, but should prepare for rainy days. I am doing what I would be doing if I stayed in the London flat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Troubledtimes said:


> I'm with the others on this one, hold off on all major joint financial and life decisions till your relationship is great. That means no buying houses together and certainly not having children together. Did you look at renting a place for both of you for the short term as an alternative? Please don't bring a child into this rocky relationship, no matter what her biological clock reads.


Yes my family suggest the same thing. Well we were renting, then she jumped the gun. I am trying my end, with the compromises I laid down to see what goes on. She has a passive aggressive nature, and at times gives silent treatment and withdrawl. I don't feel we were ready to have kids in 2012, or at the early part of 2013, then she said she wanted a divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> Well then, there you go. You have 50% invested in that house, but you don't actually believe that do you? If you did, you'd have a key to your own damned house, wouldn't you?
> 
> Why don't you download yourself a copy of No More Mr. Nice Guy, and read it on the underground over the next little while. It may give you something to think about.
> 
> How long are you willing to twist in the wind? How much are you going to invest in such an awful existence, without concrete improvement? What you think you've gained, that's not an improvement. From the outside looking in, nothing has changed really. That's my honest opinion of what you describe, I have nothing to gain or lose either way. Neither does nsweet, nor blonde, nor anyone else givng you our opinion. I think you deserve better than what you are living. I think unless you act differently, as in do something you think you should not, your marriage is toast. What you have done, and continue to do, will get you the dame results. It isn't working. Explore other options. Or don't. Continue to report on your slow spiral into marital hell. Somebody will read it.


My parents and sister say the same thing. That I'm not happy, she doesn't make me happy, she has brushed them up the wrong way. Could I find another, sure. Do I want to walk away from a 9 year relationship? I am her first boyfriend, she my first girlfriend. 

I have told her that this is all not normal, not having a key. That this instabity can not continue. I still proposed to her we see a marriage councilor - at least to discuss maternal insecurities she may have.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Nsweet said:


> Zeezack *DO NOT* buy that house!!!!
> 
> Your wife is stringing you along and she's get you to buy a huge house so she can take it away from you during the divorce.
> 
> *How can you not see this is what is going to happen????*
> 
> Do not buy any property, any cars, anything you don't want to lose until you are 100% sure you wife is 100% reconciled to you. And for the love of God don't get her pregnant!


Well this is good advice. With things so unstable at times, how to know. I mean on friday evening - I had a hot dinner, went to bed. On saturday morning she was pissed off and started packing my bags over suspicion of broken promises.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nsweet

zeezack said:


> Well this is good advice. With things so unstable at times, how to know. I mean on friday evening - I had a hot dinner, went to bed. On saturday morning she was pissed off and started packing my bags over suspicion of broken promises.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And you want to get her pregnant!? Do you honestly think you can deal with her when she's having mood swings? I don't think so. She's unstable as it is and she's not going to get any nicer.


----------



## zeezack

Nsweet said:


> And you want to get her pregnant!? Do you honestly think you can deal with her when she's having mood swings? I don't think so. She's unstable as it is and she's not going to get any nicer.


Yes I agree mate, it is a big cause for concern and I clearly labeled this to her. "I said you can't keep doing this, preparing to kick me out at a whim's notice, if you want me to go, I'll go. This can't happen if we have kids, its a pattern".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I said to her 'I have no security here, no key, at any instance its a case of ending the relationship and requesting I go back to london.'
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nsweet

I'm telling you man, if you just agreed with her and left she would turn around and start talking. It seems like she doesn't want you, but she also doesn't want a divorce or else she would have filed by now. And people who act like this never like it when you play by their rules. It's all about control and pushing you around so they can feel in charge. 

To be honest with you I think your wife is a mess right now. She doesn't know if you should go or stay, and she's telling one thing and then another because she thinks it will make her happy but it never does. I honestly think, and this is me telling you man to man and not trying to be a d!ck here, but I honestly think if you stood up to her and started telling her NO she respect you so much more. 

Everybody on here who's cheering for you has said one thing or another about her culture and how Chinese women want this or that, but what they neglected to tell you is that Chinese men also take charge and are very dominant with their wives. I'm sure there's a way you can stand up to your wife and show her your confidence without completely trying to control her.


----------



## zeezack

Nsweet said:


> I'm telling you man, if you just agreed with her and left she would turn around and start talking. It seems like she doesn't want you, but she also doesn't want a divorce or else she would have filed by now. And people who act like this never like it when you play by their rules. It's all about control and pushing you around so they can feel in charge.
> 
> To be honest with you I think your wife is a mess right now. She doesn't know if you should go or stay, and she's telling one thing and then another because she thinks it will make her happy but it never does. I honestly think, and this is me telling you man to man and not trying to be a d!ck here, but I honestly think if you stood up to her and started telling her NO she respect you so much more.
> 
> Everybody on here who's cheering for you has said one thing or another about her culture and how Chinese women want this or that, but what they neglected to tell you is that Chinese men also take charge and are very dominant with their wives. I'm sure there's a way you can stand up to your wife and show her your confidence without completely trying to control her.


I understand what you are saying. I even said something like this to her. I find myself trying to live by the compromises I've laid out, yet do something in the evening that I want to do. Then at times like on thursday night she says something off the cuff and provoking. I feel myself getting angry, but rather then letting me become subdued by the emotion and continuing a spiral discussion. I asked 'what is bothering you tonight, why are you becoming antagonistic'. It requires a lot of patience - I tell you, many guys may have just stormed out in my position. But I feel its more of her maternal fears - giving me the option to leave, in case I can't cut her desires/requirements. All I can say is - I understand what you are saying, I can and will aim to learn to drive if we had a child - when she became upset I wasn't being active this weekend in learning to drive. All I could do at the time was console her that I would do my best and that is all I can do, given the situation. Given situations I feel I had no control over etc... Its like she has a fear of not having control or being weaker and more dependant on me when she is due with child etc...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

Nsweet said:


> Everybody on here who's cheering for you has said one thing or another about her culture and how Chinese women want this or that, but what they neglected to tell you is that Chinese men also take charge and are very dominant with their wives. I'm sure there's a way you can stand up to your wife and show her your confidence without completely trying to control her.


Not so sure @ that. My daughter is engaged to a Chinese man which scared me because I assumed what you posted above- that its a patriarchal culture oppressive to females. 

DD has been to China several times and did a minor in Chinese and informs me that it's quite the opposite. Chinese women are *extremely* strong. Her future MIL is the domineering one in that relationship and is a Tiger Mom with my future SIL. Tiger Mothers: Raising Children The Chinese Way : NPR


----------



## rubpy3

Blonde said:


> Not so sure @ that. My daughter is engaged to a Chinese man which scared me because I assumed what you posted above- that its a patriarchal culture oppressive to females.
> 
> DD has been to China several times and did a minor in Chinese and informs me that it's quite the opposite. Chinese women are *extremely* strong. Her future MIL is the domineering one in that relationship and is a Tiger Mom with my future SIL. Tiger Mothers: Raising Children The Chinese Way : NPR



There's a new culture in Asia that I don't understand where males are becoming severely feminized. Look at the top 10 pop idol from China, Korea, Japan, and you'll know what I mean. I'm in Korea and never cease to amaze 6 feet tall guys proudly tell me they weight only 135lb. They spend exorbitant amount of time doing facial stuffs that I don't even know the name for. 

Anyhow I'm digressing.

ZZ, let's pretend for one second that you don't give a damn about the outcome of this mess anymore. Let's pretend that for one day, you are going to be a callous sob who doesn't give a damn anymore. What do you think you will do differently?

Let's do a different exercise. Why don't you be a stubborn sonluva***** for one month. Let's think of a goal for you - say you want to stay up until 11pm every night for no reason other than you want to. And you are not gonna let anyone say differently. What will you do? What will you do if your wife throws a tantrum? What will you do if your family tells you it's stupid? What will you do if your sister swears never to talk to you until you go back to normal routine?

What I'm saying is.. set a goal for yourself, what do you want? Go for it, and don't stop for nobody along the way. You are a tank, run through the obstacles in your life. Take charge of your life, and charge ahead. The process of running after your goal is far more impressive than getting to the goal.


----------



## zeezack

Yeah I do make allowances. My wife has requested I stay in London just once this week, for this week alone. I do get aggrevated at times for I formulate plans that would make more sense to remain in London. I am accused of generally not being flexible. My wife is wired very differently. I have been oil painting in the past two weeks. My painting was moved yesterday into the conservatory because it was deemed too smelly, so yesterday I tried to work on it in lower conditions. She said this morning if I could stop oil painting until saturday, no explanation, can only assume she has a mighty health reason on it. I have a flat next to where I work, yet here I stand on the train commuting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I feel if I insisted on staying up till 11 she would get pissed and maybe send me packing. I don't though cause even going to bed at 9:30 I still feel tired at 6:40 to get ready for the train
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

She revealed to me this friday night, that she wanted to make babbies. I was taken back as I felt we needed more time to stabilize the relationship, living and costs. She is furious now, that I wanted time, to discuss it. She wants me now to pack my bags and go to london tomorrow. View the 4 bedroom flat on my own, form my own union
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

She has just slammed her bedroom door shut. She is furious and seems determined divorce/separation it is. That I have failed the two month trial
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

That she doesn't trust me, fear I can't support her. I tried to ask her about her maternity leave and she wouldn't give me a straight answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Feels I won't ever be ready to have kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nsweet

Do you see the pattern? Every time you disagree with her plans, let her down, or don't do exactly what she wants, she pushes you out the door and tells you she wants a divorce again. She's bullying you.


----------



## zeezack

I see the pattern and I did say this. Ten minutes ago you want to have a child with me, now you want a divorce. I said this is not stable. Her first sentence when I appeared shocked after she said 'let's make babbies', was 'we make a baby or divorce'. Gees I just would have liked to discuss things properly, form a union, stabilze the relationship. I feel under immense pressure now, as I may have to take a bulk of stuff back to london tomorrow morning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

She was like to herself 'getting married to you was the biggest mistake. Please give me my freedom'
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Two hours ago she wanted to make love, and now I am facing separation, abandonment and divorce all over again, on the day we were to view a 4 bedroom flat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nsweet

I think your wife has borderline personality disorder.


----------



## zeezack

It was a really fast switch man. Was having an amicable friday evening, then at 20:10 she said 'let's make babbies'. I was taken back because I thought we would discuss such things in detail, like properly plan - sell 2 properties, consider the areas together etc... I still don't have a key to the house and had raised concerns last weekend about support and possible times I would/could return from work in the near future - june onwards. My family have been telling me all month not to start a family. I haven't told my wife this, but given the unstable situation and their advice/feelings it been real hard to ignore. I've stuck by my wife this whole time, because I know she is deeply concerned about having children. It shocks me the eve she wants to become pregnant, she then errupts with wanting a divorce, over not wanting to wait a few more months to see how things will stabilize etc... Was separated from july 2013-dec 2013 and we are only just now about to pass through jan 2014.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

You are genuinely surprised, aren't you? Wow.

Wake up. This is your life, IF YOU CHOOSE IT. You are free to choose not to live like this. Her freedom isn't at stake here dude, your's is!

She wants a sperm donor, and a support check every month. You are better than that, aren't you? Come on!


----------



## Nsweet

Read some of the stories on shrink4men.com.


----------



## zeezack

Its been like 6 weeks since we started to come out of a separation. I just didn't feel tonight was the night to start a family. But now it looks like I've lost the window of opportunity, again. Because I felt things were not stabile yet, as they are not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

So how do you feel Zee? About your situation? About her reaction, her behaviour, her choices? About your future? How about your present? What do you want? You seem so focussed on her, what she wants, what she feels. What about you?


----------



## zeezack

I wanted us to both view this property tomorrow, consider our options jointly. Sell both properties, get a joint property, a place I feel I also co-own with her, with more space, strenghten a union. Form a plan with her and stick to it. Ok she wanted to have a baby tonight; 30 days after coming out of a separation. I understand her reaction, but her behaviour is another factor that concerns me on her decision to want to have a baby and then not. I wanted to have children with my wife, but ensure things were more stable, for all of our sakes. Last weekend she started packing my bags for me, giving me the option to go. Last sunday she considered selling the house; which I felt was the first step to forming a proper union. Resolving the house situation first to strenghten the support I could give her. She has her doubts - and I can't reassure her. I don't feel anyone is truly ready to have children, but tonight - just as its ended - didn't feel it was time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nsweet

Right, so you're the only one really trying in this marriage, and you're the only one making adult plans here. 

You realize if you did have a baby with you that she would probably leave you and take the child with her to China, and you might never see either of them again.


----------



## zeezack

My sister said something similar. I would like to believe my wife doesn't want to be a single mother. That she herself has comitments.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> My sister said something similar. I would like to believe my wife doesn't want to be a single mother. That she herself has comitments.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What does that mean? You will end up with responsibility for childcare, under her instructions, while she takes care of her commitments?


----------



## SadandAngry

By the way, you answered mt question about what you want, by talking about what you wanted. What you wanted is utterly divorced from the reality of what you have. What you've had the whole time since you started the thread. 

What do you have? Be honest with yourself. If you can't do that, how could you possibly expect to be honest with any one else, let alone your wife?

What do you have, and what do you want to do about it?

Even considering kids is well beyond inappropriate at this point, it is insane! You'd have a better chance at successful marriage and family if you went out to a bar and hooked up with a random stranger. At least she might have a clue what a relationship should be like. I don't think either you or your wife has the faintest clue. I am not trying to insult you, or her, but man alive, you do not have a marriage, do you? You cannot seriously believe you do, can you?


----------



## zeezack

I mean my wife does have her own commitments like the mortgage on the house, belongings there and I think still a job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

Is she still locked in her room?


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> It was a really fast switch man. Was having an amicable friday evening, then at 20:10 she said 'let's make babbies'. I was taken back because I thought we would discuss such things in detail, like properly plan - sell 2 properties, consider the areas together etc... I still don't have a key to the house and had raised concerns last weekend about support and possible times I would/could return from work in the near future - june onwards. My family have been telling me all month not to start a family. I haven't told my wife this, but given the unstable situation and their advice/feelings it been real hard to ignore. *I've stuck by my wife this whole time, because I know she is deeply concerned about having children. *It shocks me the eve she wants to become pregnant, she then errupts with wanting a divorce, over not wanting to wait a few more months to see how things will stabilize etc... Was separated from july 2013-dec 2013 and we are only just now about to pass through jan 2014.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sad because her biological clock is ticking and if you D you sticking by her just screwed her out of a chance to ever be a mother 

But ITA that you should not make any babies until the sale of two properties and procuring a joint place to live. The living apart was a terrible arrangement!


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> By the way, you answered mt question about what you want, by talking about what you wanted. What you wanted is utterly divorced from the reality of what you have. What you've had the whole time since you started the thread.
> 
> What do you have? Be honest with yourself. If you can't do that, how could you possibly expect to be honest with any one else, let alone your wife?
> 
> What do you have, and what do you want to do about it?
> 
> Even considering kids is well beyond inappropriate at this point, it is insane! You'd have a better chance at successful marriage and family if you went out to a bar and hooked up with a random stranger. At least she might have a clue what a relationship should be like. I don't think either you or your wife has the faintest clue. I am not trying to insult you, or her, but man alive, you do not have a marriage, do you? You cannot seriously believe you do, can you?


I don't know how to reply to this. A month out of a separation and was taking things slow, step by step trying to talk things through. She tells me let's go upstairs and make a child, and like your reaction - I'm thinking things need way more time to stabilise and come together, and blame the door is closed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> Is she still locked in her room?


Its not locked, but its shut and I think she is sleeping casually. I had a panick attack about half an hour ago, went downstairs to evaluate what exactly I have in the house and to get some air.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nsweet

I have never seen anyone in limbo this bad. 

Come one Zeezack, you gotta get your head out of your ass and see what your wife is doing here. Stop defending her and making up excuses for her being a b!tch who just wants you out of her house and wake up. Your wife hasn't done jack sh!t to reconcile WITH you. Everything up until this point has been about what she wants and what she wants is for you jump through her hoops and bend over backwards to try to please her, so she can continue to mess with yout head until you just about snap. Then she can throw you out like she planned and have all the justification in the world for you being a bad guy and her being the victim.

And don't you dare get her pregnant or let her have sex with you. The way she's acting I'd suspect she would only do that to get something she wanted or to trick you into thinking another man's child is yours so you'll pay child support and jump through hoops for another 7-9 months. 

I don't mean to be 'that guy' but you really need to man up her and tell your wife "enough is enough, and I'm not doing all of this for you anymore". It's like everyone else, except for a few deluded women who've never divorced, can see how you're being toyed with but you. If you would just stop trying to be right about her and listen you'd learn a thing or two.


----------



## SadandAngry

Nsweet said:


> Right, so you're the only one really trying in this marriage, and you're the only one making adult plans here.
> 
> You realize if you did have a baby with you that she would probably leave you and take the child with her to China, and you might never see either of them again.


It strikes me that he isn't actually trying though. He is reacting to her, trying to wait her out, until she comes up with a sensible plan. But she is probably waiting for him. Wanting him to display an ounce of leadership, self regard, value, and he doesn't. I have tried pushing, you have tried, but he always had an excuse, a reason to sit back. Inaction seems like the safest thing to do for him, but he doesn't realize that it isn't. You know that, I know that, I'm quite sure Blonde knows that, but Zeezac only intervenes it seems once the situation is past dire. The tension between his wife and his family didn't happen over night, and it didn't happen behind his back. Now he is screwed, and still, he reacts to his wife.

Are you having a panic attack worrying about what she will do next? You need to think about what you will do next. I don't know that you can though.


----------



## Blonde

Nsweet said:


> I It's like everyone else, except for a few deluded women who've never divorced, can see how you're being toyed with but you.


I don't see him as a "victim" here. He has been very active during their 9 year (?) relationship avoiding growing up, avoiding healthy separation and boundaries with his family of origin, and procrastinating way too long @ making adult decisions such as providing better than sleeping on the floor in a bedsit for his woman of almost a decade. 

I assume you and some others speak out of the pain of being cheated on, used, and dumped and there is some projection of that onto Z's wife. I don't assume that she is a cheater, nor an evil abusive villainess. 

Nevertheless, I don't have much hope for this M working. Too much dysfunction for too long and too much water under the bridge....


----------



## SadandAngry

x


----------



## SadandAngry

I can see how she could be at her wits end. Any number of things could be going on with her, but it is clear, she isn't helping things. She is swinging back and forth, and they both sit in limbo. A kid is the last thing this situation needs, piling stress and responsibility on to people who can't seem to get on the same page.


----------



## Blonde

I'm sorry fellas that I really tend to put myself in the "wife skin" when reading here. I'm sorry because I'm sure I can sound harsh to you from your "husband skin" perspective.

If I was her, I'd be grieving wasting a decade on this. 

If I was her mother, I'd tell her to cut her losses and move on.


----------



## SadandAngry

Don't be sorry. It is a screwy situation. They both contribute to it though. There are lots of ways to deal (or not), some honorable, some not. Some that take courage, some that don't. It isn't always easy to tell the difference between desperation born of frustration, or desperation born of deception. Kind of a jaded audience here sometimes though, as you pointed out.


----------



## sunvalley

Why are any of you bothering to talk to this boy anymore? (That's what he is emotionally -- a boy or teenager, if you prefer.) He doesn't know what he wants. And from what I've read, he doesn't want to grow up, either. Plus, on a very deep level, he loves drama (and so does his family) -- something in it validates him and all the "sacrifices" he's made for this woman. A reasonably-emotionally-healthy person would NOT put up with this for two weeks, let alone ten years.

Until he grows up and grows a pair, this will continue. And "Zeezack" will continue twisting in the wind and whining to Mommy, Daddy and Sissy about how he's so sad, he's so abused, he doesn't understand -- he's done so much for her .... he's compromised and pleaded and bent over backwards and etc. etc. etc.

I predict in 10 years, he'll either be A) divorced and wondering why or B) still be coming here and whining about how his Chinese wife is whacking him around (figuratively) like a tetherball on a pole. At this point, he doesn't WANT to do any of what all of you are suggesting, because that would require work and sacrifice.

Being miserable is easy. Happiness takes WORK. (And believe me, I know from personal experience.)


----------



## Nsweet

Damn good points there sunvalley.


----------



## zeezack

I know what I wanted Sunvalley. To view a 4 bedroom place today with my wife, to consider properly forming a union and a more stable base.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

Been there, done that, would have the t-shirt if it was worth commemoration, but it isn't, and it would've been great if someone had whacked me with a 2x4, or ten, but maybe it's something you just need to learn for yourself, eventually!


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> I know what I wanted Sunvalley. To view a 4 bedroom place today with my wife, to consider properly forming a union and a more stable base.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But don't you see, that's fantasy, that's so far removed from where you are, it's totally unrealistic. You don't get along on a basic level. You don't sleep in the same room, you don't even have a key to your ****ing house man. Wow! You are such a Nice Guy, and that's not a compliment. Nice guys aren't genuinely nice at the root, they fail to take care of themselves, so they can't take care of anyone else.

You want everything to be so smooth, you'll avoid confronting conflict at all costs, without realizing the cost is huge in the end. Conflict is ok. Failure is an option. It's a great teacher. A great motivator. Trying to avoid conflict winds up magnifying it in the end. 

You tried mightily to accommodate your wife, yes? To appease her, and meet her demands, to show you are committed, and willing to make things work? Has all that changed anything? Is she anymore committed to you than when she left for China? Do you feel any better, any more secure, for all your efforts? Did you achieve any concrete results? 

No. No you haven't. Isn't it past time you reconsider your strategy? Your coping methods? Don't you think it's time to face facts, something needs to change, and the only variable you control is you? Is any of this getting through?


----------



## rubpy3

SadandAngry said:


> But don't you see, that's fantasy, that's so far removed from where you are, it's totally unrealistic. You don't get along on a basic level. You don't sleep in the same room, you don't even have a key to your ****ing house man. Wow! You are such a Nice Guy, and that's not a compliment. Nice guys aren't genuinely nice at the root, they fail to take care of themselves, so they can't take care of anyone else.
> 
> You want everything to be so smooth, you'll avoid confronting conflict at all costs, without realizing the cost is huge in the end. Conflict is ok. Failure is an option. It's a great teacher. A great motivator. Trying to avoid conflict winds up magnifying it in the end.
> 
> You tried mightily to accommodate your wife, yes? To appease her, and meet her demands, to show you are committed, and willing to make things work? Has all that changed anything? Is she anymore committed to you than when she left for China? Do you feel any better, any more secure, for all your efforts? Did you achieve any concrete results?
> 
> No. No you haven't. Isn't it past time you reconsider your strategy? Your coping methods? Don't you think it's time to face facts, something needs to change, and the only variable you control is you? Is any of this getting through?



:iagree: This.

ZZ, go out there and be proactive for once. Your life isn't a TV show.


----------



## zeezack

I've left to London with some essentials for work. I'm heading back to get the flat evaluated and to view this 4 bedroom place. My wife was in a pissed off mood, saying 'I was ****ing stupid, when it comes to things like this' and that she 'won't sell the house'. She won't be coming to view the 4 bedroom place. We were starting to get along, then when I showed concern about starting a family yesterday she became volitile again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

She changed her mind and came to the viewing with me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> She changed her mind and came to the viewing with me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In your opinion, is this good, bad, or neither?


----------



## Blonde

SadandAngry said:


> You tried mightily to accommodate your wife, yes? To appease her, and meet her demands, to show you are committed, and willing to make things work?


I don't see it this way. He lived like a single guy for most of their relationship and set it up to continue that way afterwards with his and hers houses. 

Accommodating the wife would have been to get a place together *before* she got so frustrated (sleeping on the floor in a bedsit) that she took matters into her own hands and bought her own place.

I'm not sure that telling someone like Zeezack to STOP accommodating his wife is constructive? He lives like bachelor and only sees her on weekends, how much less accommodating of a wife could one be???

OTH, I'm right on board for Z to stop being so accommodating with his family of origin.


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> I don't see it this way. He lived like a single guy for most of their relationship and set it up to continue that way afterwards with his and hers houses.
> 
> Accommodating the wife would have been to get a place together *before* she got so frustrated (sleeping on the floor in a bedsit) that she took matters into her own hands and bought her own place.
> 
> I'm not sure that telling someone like Zeezack to STOP accommodating his wife is constructive? He lives like bachelor and only sees her on weekends, how much less accommodating of a wife could one be???
> 
> OTH, I'm right on board for Z to stop being so accommodating with his family of origin.


She was in China. When we got married and started living together, we were saving. I always wanted a joint mortgage but my wife jumped ship. I was self employed and was not legible at that time. I made the right choice, moneywise and career wise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

We saw the property, but she has decided not to sell hers. The next plan, is for me to sell, and get something bigger. At least this way I can support her better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

Here's your chance to put your foot down. We BOTH sell and move in together. No more "his and hers" housing.

If it was me, this would be an ultimatum and I would take her decision as a cue to which fork I am taking.

Both sell, buy a home together, work on the M

She insists on keeping her own place, goodbye have a nice life, M over


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> In your opinion, is this good, bad, or neither?


It is good she came. Overcame stubborness and eased off on her anger. By the midday, had lunch at a restaurant and did some food shopping.

We talked about things, and she doesn't want to sell the hitchin home. I can't gurantee I can live there feasibly during the working week - as work comitments could run into overtime and be further away. So I may revise the london flat and opt for something bigger. She would then be inclined to also live in london with me during the work days. She has put off wanting a baby till next month.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## foxguy148

I read your whole thread man, took me hours last night, I'm also a software developer much as you are and I can't help but thinking you are equating your wife's emotions/feelings as if it were some software program you were writing/reviewing/modifying. You are going to be sadly dissapointed with this whole relationship if you keep doing this, this is one the reasons you are detached from the situation I believe. 

You keep thinking if I do Y she will respond with Z, you will probably deny this but it's a pattern in your posts. Human emotions are much more complex than some computer program. 

Honestly, I just don't think you are ready to be in the relationship, somebody mentioned BPD as a possibility earlier in the thread you should consider this, however she would have displayed these traits for years as it's not something she would have been able to keep in check on her own, if she did display these traits on a constant basis, please run away as this will continue for the rest of her life if untreated and when you do mature it will still be the same.

I myself from reading your posts, don't believe she suffers from BPD, I also don't believe you truly "love her" as you would be in very high gear if you did, not just sending emails, texts, etc. 
I think at the crux of this is the woman just wasted 8 or 9 years with you and you are still waffling, you say it was great and want a family , if that was so why didn't you have kids then? Why because you are waffling about wanting to have a house in a certain part of London/Money/etc. You are nowhere near ready to have a kid if you view life that way, it's messy it rarely goes as planned and you will be very sad when you find out life rarely goes as planned.

Geeze the woman is 35 her biological clock is ticking, the chance your baby will have some defect goes up greatly with age, but you aren't thinking about that are you, your thinking about learning JAVA/certain house in London/ what your parents think/what your uncle thinks/ what your sister thinks. Life is never as ordered as that and someone like you who thinks that is frankly has lived very little. Also if this relationship does or doesn't work out, tell your family to get the hell out of your personal business , only you can vet and have final say over the woman you want. 

Frankly I believe the only thing keeping this woman around , is the fact she has spent so much time with you and is now 35 and she desperately wants children but probably feels she can't vet the next guy properly given her biologic clock is ticking, so she is desperately trying to get you to realize the error of your ways in a desperate attempt to get you to wake up from your stupor. Since when does one have to have some 4 or 6 bedroom house in London before they will have kids. I believe if this woman has not displayed BPD traits consistently prior to this whole mess she is a fine woman to have as a wife and as mother as she took the proper time to vet you, gave you time(years) to secure a home and has gotten tired of you waffling.


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> Here's your chance to put your foot down. We BOTH sell and move in together. No more "his and hers" housing.
> 
> If it was me, this would be an ultimatum and I would take her decision as a cue to which fork I am taking.
> 
> Both sell, buy a home together, work on the M
> 
> She insists on keeping her own place, goodbye have a nice life, M over


Yeah well - as I said - pointed out the reasons when she told me june 2012 she was buying it. Despite my best efforts to show her the options we could have, in different areas, the 4 bedroom place today and its potential if we both sold. She insists she wants to keep the house. Its a good house in terms of quality. But its a 2 bedroom house that can not get a loft extentsion. She won't sell, she didn't let me be part of a joint mortgage then, now etc... She wants to have a child, and I would like to ensure I can see them each day and offer my support before 20:10 and after 06:45.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

foxguy148 said:


> I read your whole thread man, took me hours last night, I'm also a software developer much as you are and I can't help but thinking you are equating your wife's emotions/feelings as if it were some software program you were writing/reviewing/modifying. You are going to be sadly dissapointed with this whole relationship if you keep doing this, this is one the reasons you are detached from the situation I believe.
> 
> You keep thinking if I do Y she will respond with Z, you will probably deny this but it's a pattern in your posts. Human emotions are much more complex than some computer program.
> 
> Honestly, I just don't think you are ready to be in the relationship, somebody mentioned BPD as a possibility earlier in the thread you should consider this, however she would have displayed these traits for years as it's not something she would have been able to keep in check on her own, if she did display these traits on a constant basis, please run away as this will continue for the rest of her life if untreated and when you do mature it will still be the same.
> 
> I myself from reading your posts, don't believe she suffers from BPD, I also don't believe you truly "love her" as you would be in very high gear if you did, not just sending emails, texts, etc.
> I think at the crux of this is the woman just wasted 8 or 9 years with you and you are still waffling, you say it was great and want a family , if that was so why didn't you have kids then? Why because you are waffling about wanting to have a house in a certain part of London/Money/etc. You are nowhere near ready to have a kid if you view life that way, it's messy it rarely goes as planned and you will be very sad when you find out life rarely goes as planned.
> 
> Geeze the woman is 35 her biological clock is ticking, the chance your baby will have some defect goes up greatly with age, but you aren't thinking about that are you, your thinking about learning JAVA/certain house in London/ what your parents think/what your uncle thinks/ what your sister thinks. Life is never as ordered as that and someone like you who thinks that is frankly has lived very little. Also if this relationship does or doesn't work out, tell your family to get the hell out of your personal business , only you can vet and have final say over the woman you want.
> 
> Frankly I believe the only thing keeping this woman around , is the fact she has spent so much time with you and is now 35 and she desperately wants children but probably feels she can't vet the next guy properly given her biologic clock is ticking, so she is desperately trying to get you to realize the error of your ways in a desperate attempt to get you to wake up from your stupor. Since when does one have to have some 4 or 6 bedroom house in London before they will have kids. I believe if this woman has not displayed BPD traits consistently prior to this whole mess she is a fine woman to have as a wife and as mother as she took the proper time to vet you, gave you time(years) to secure a home and has gotten tired of you waffling.


Alright, I get what you are saying. She has recently turned 34. In jan 2008 she left to go back to china when her student visa ran out. I had just come out of uni. Even during aug 2010, when we married had little savings and bad luck with work. I tried to secure the career and skills etc to lay the foundations. It was hard, I had a penatly 2 years self employed before a mortgage. She was on a 2 year marriage visa. Some lenders would lend to her, but not both of us etc.

When she bought the house in June 2012, that was my first alarm bell. I requested her to wait a few months till I was legible + I knew this was the start of a division of assets. I would not have minded so much if it were london based, and we then revised later for a joint mortgage, but it didn't work out like that. So I got over the initial shock and anger in 2012 and tried to see how to work around it. When she left the rented flat - my work hit overtime past 19:00, nearly every day. So that's how things were for the time. Then she started to disrespect my family, privately at first, then it really spilled in early 2013. I tried to get her to talk, them to talk. Then my wife iniated a seperation from july to dec. I was told in aug she wanted to divorce. Now I knew she wanted children, but the problems persisted and even to this day there has been issues trying to stabilize things.

I don't see her emotions like a program, course I can distiguish its more complex and that there are other cultural tones at play. I've been too passive in the past.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I have to say though, there were signs of passive aggressive behavior in the past. This breakup thing is a pattern. One thing I recall early in the marriage. We were planning transportation for going to her home town. She wanted to take an 8 hour train, I said please let's take the 1 hour plane. There was no more discussion about it, when the event occurred guess what, she organized the 8 hour train. My wife is very independent, stubborn - maybe as am I, but I find her far more volitle. She can get very angry - almost to the point that she is invoking her wraith more and has a hot temper, suppose that's why I've taken a more passive stance to try and observe and not exasabate the situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## foxguy148

zeezack said:


> Alright, I get what you are saying. She has recently turned 34. In jan 2008 she left to go back to china when her student visa ran out. I had just come out of uni. Even during aug 2010, when we married had little savings and bad luck with work. I tried to secure the career and skills etc to lay the foundations. It was hard, I had a penatly 2 years self employed before a mortgage. She was on a 2 year marriage visa. Some lenders would lend to her, but not both of us etc.
> 
> When she bought the house in June 2012, that was my first alarm bell. I requested her to wait a few months till I was legible + I knew this was the start of a division of assets. I would not have minded so much if it were london based, and we then revised later for a joint mortgage, but it didn't work out like that. So I got over the initial shock and anger in 2012 and tried to see how to work around it. When she left the rented flat - my work hit overtime past 19:00, nearly every day. So that's how things were for the time. Then she started to disrespect my family, privately at first, then it really spilled in early 2013. I tried to get her to talk, them to talk. Then my wife iniated a seperation from july to dec. I was told in aug she wanted to divorce. Now I knew she wanted children, but the problems persisted and even to this day there has been issues trying to stabilize things.
> 
> I don't see her emotions like a program, course I can distiguish its more complex and that there are other cultural tones at play. I've been too passive in the past.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See there you go again zeezack, just like when my son plays the "wheels on the bus go round and round".

None of what you wrote above ultimately matters for the outcome of this relationship, if you love this woman and she did not display emotional problems prior to this whole mess get to making a baby NOW! If that's what you both ultimately want, you are the man here right ? I betcha she would love that and would be thrilled! 

Unless you have to check with your uncle,mom, or sister first? Who cares about housing, don't you realize life is passing you by? I guess your waiting for everything to be 100% right and then you will the baby which shows me how little you know about life given that things are never 100% right, variables are constantly shifting and you adjust to new situations. 

I believe the family situation is a direct result of you waffling so much, since she probably loves and still has hope with you, she blames your waffling on your family, it's actually a sign she does care about you, given she is unwilling to directly blame you for your damm waffling.


----------



## zeezack

Also its not that we need a 4 bedroom place now. But it was an incentive for us to loose 2 properties to secure something in the city - although would need rennovating would be a massive investment in the future and house a max of 3 kids. I don't understand why she has such strong attachment to a non-expandable 2 bedroom place outside the city. I did ask, does she expect 2 teenagers to live in the same room? Cause at the moment her husband's got already most of his belongings in a flat in London.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

foxguy148 said:


> See there you go again zeezack, just like when my son plays the "wheels on the bus go round and round".
> 
> None of what you wrote above ultimately matters for the outcome of this relationship, if you love this woman and she did not display emotional problems prior to this whole mess get to making a baby NOW! If that's what you both ultimately want, you are the man here right ? I betcha she would love that and would be thrilled!
> 
> Unless you have to check with your uncle,mom, or sister first? Who cares about housing, don't you realize life is passing you by? I guess your waiting for everything to be 100% right and then you will the baby which shows me how little you know about life given that things are never 100% right, variables are constantly shifting and you adjust to new situations.
> 
> I believe the family situation is a direct result of you waffling so much, since she probably loves and still has hope with you, she blames your waffling on your family, it's actually a sign she does care about you, given she is unwilling to directly blame you for your damm waffling.


I understand what you are saying. She herself sent emails and included my family in private discussions etc. Just come out of a separation 6 weeks and even now - each weekend has been a walk on ice where she wants a divorce. When your wife comes off so hot and cold its a real struggle to know if its time to have kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## foxguy148

zeezack said:


> I understand what you are saying. She herself sent emails and included my family in private discussions etc. Just come out of a separation 6 weeks and even now - each weekend has been a walk on ice where she wants a divorce. When your wife comes off so hot and cold its a real struggle to know if its time to have kids.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The hot cold thing is the only bad thing I detect, if this woman is BPD then it's better to run away, it doesn't sound like it to me but only you can determine that, but after so many years there would be many BPD symptoms you would noticed and would have driven you crazy. 

I don't think you realize you have been given an ultimatum , that's grow up or act like a man and make some babies, basically the only reason we exist in a biological sense, or divorce. The only thing that has kept this dum discussion going is that she has been unwilling to enforced said ultimatum. All this other stuff is bull and all you do is confuse the situation. 

The simple question is:

Do you want to make a baby with her not in a short timeframe ?

I suspect a waffling answer from you citing all this other bull, but perhaps the answer is really no, yet you are unwilling to admit it to yourself you just wasted all these years. If so you are doing a dis service to this woman, I guarantee you that if you inform her you never want babies she will initiate the divorce herself, stop stringing this woman along like this, it's cruel and not very manly.......


----------



## zeezack

I do want to have a family with her. Things have just been so bad in various ways. She is very indecisive about selling the house. I have shown her lots of options, her latest stance is for me to sell the london flat and try and obtain a 1-2 bedroom place on my own budget. Maybe a 1 bedroom place is possible, and even if we both stay in london during the week, well still doesn't solve some of the fundamental problems as such.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AliceA

zeezack said:


> I do want to have a family with her. Things have just been so bad in various ways. She is very indecisive about selling the house. I have shown her lots of options, her latest stance is for me to sell the london flat and try and obtain a 1-2 bedroom place on my own budget. Maybe a 1 bedroom place is possible, and even if we both stay in london during the week, well still doesn't solve some of the fundamental problems as such.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe you should reduce the options to 2, make it simple.

Option 1) we do this (live together, wherever you think is best) start a family straight away

Option 2) we divorce now and we have time to find someone else to have kids with


----------



## zeezack

I've text her that I ideally need her to meet half way and consider selling the house so I can properly support her. My parents are not happy, given the way my wife was at christmas and feel I am making a mistake. My mum just doesn't feel my wife is meeting half way at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

zeezack said:


> I've text her that I ideally need her to meet half way and consider selling the house so I can properly support her. *My parents are not happy*, given the way my wife was at christmas and feel I am making a mistake.* My mum *just doesn't feel my wife is meeting half way at all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Reread this thread and count how many times from how many different people you were advised to keep your mum and your parents OUT of your marriage! 

Why on earth are you discussing this with them, Zeezack? I totally understand how frustrating it must be for your wife to be married to you...


----------



## zeezack

Just saying, every time I just chat to my family, it comes back to the topic. They are curious on how I am getting on, and that is there general concensious. Having a child in one month's time with my wife, with this kind of feedback along with the current events, that's the picture.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sh987

zeezack said:


> Just saying, every time I just chat to my family, it comes back to the topic. They are curious on how I am getting on, and that is there general concensious. Having a child in one month's time with my wife, with this kind of feedback along with the current events, that's the picture.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Thanks for the concern, but this is our business and not yours."

There's plenty of blame to go around in a marriage, and this is part of yours. Tell your wife and/or a counselor, BUT NOT YOUR FAMILY.

Tell your family about your problems to the detriment of your marriage. But then, there's nothing new here. You've only been told a million times. But saying "Well, they bring it up when I talk to them" is a cop-out.

You talk to them about your marital problems because you want to. If you didn't want to talk about it, you wouldn't do it.


----------



## zeezack

For the record, even the councillor I saw, said a similar thing. I see a real pull and tug over things with my wife, and she just won't budge. Yeah I understand what you guys are saying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## foxguy148

zeezack said:


> I've text her that I ideally need her to meet half way and consider selling the house so I can properly support her. My parents are not happy, given the way my wife was at christmas and feel I am making a mistake. My mum just doesn't feel my wife is meeting half way at all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



This is so wrong, I can only imagine the frustration this woman must be experiencing. Your wife doesn't have to meet anyone half way but you, she has no obligation to meet your mother halfway, she's not married to your mum is she, but with your deep emeshment to your family, she pretty much is married to your mom/sister/uncle etc. 

If you love this woman, who cares what your parents think, they will eventually come around. Honestly because of what you write I can't help but think you will have big time issues if you have children due to you unwilling to break from your old family in an emotional sense, you are still under their control. I think the only reason this woman has put up with so much is because of her cultural background. 

Any decent wife will demand her and your children are the first thing in your life as it should be, with your current thinking you won't be successful in any relationship with a decent woman.


----------



## zeezack

I feel my wife has really shot herself in the foot these past few months, in terms of buying the house, iniating a separation and weaking the trust in the family bonds. I know for sure now is not yet the time to start a family as we are trying to recover from a 6 month separation. But my wife is set on wanting to try next month. Becoming a dad for the first time is daunting enough, but under these conditions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I'm not under the control of my family, but being told - they don't even want your wife coming to the house, doesn't help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Thing is, even though I'm soon to turn 31. I am the youngest in my family and would be in line to be the first to make my parents, grandparents. My sister is not married. I've tried to assess the situation from a level up, take maybe their own fears/phobias/misunderstandings into consideration. Part of their resistance could be due to personal fears, but they are concerned for my own happiness; as am I. Am I happy, with some things yes, other things no. I feel though that my wife is still worthy of standing by, because I feel she does have geniune motives for having a family, raising children well, and doesn't want actually want a divorce or to raise a family on her own. I'm concerned about the feelings of my family, but more so on my lack of control on the housing situation, and the kind of support/time I could balance to support my wife in her current location.

Also her instability is a massive factor for me, and I'm trying to assess the affection/mood she has for me at the time. It fluctuates wildy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## foxguy148

zeezack said:


> I'm not under the control of my family, but being told - they don't even want your wife coming to the house, doesn't help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh you most are under their control you just don't realize it. A family with healthy boundaries with you would not get involved in a marriage mess such as this.

This is their way, I suspect your mom's of sending you a message to get rid of this woman, what's wrong with your wife not going to their house for awhile, sounds like a good plan to me to allow everyone to cool off, have they banned you from the house? They know you value them very much so have setup a no win situation with you caught in the middle, you have to choose now, please stop wasting this woman's time.


----------



## foxguy148

zeezack said:


> Thing is, even though I'm soon to turn 31. I am the youngest in my family and would be in line to be the first to make my parents, grandparents. My sister is not married. I've tried to assess the situation from a level up, take maybe their own fears/phobias/misunderstandings into consideration. Part of their resistance could be due to personal fears, but they are concerned for my own happiness; as am I. Am I happy, with some things yes, other things no. I feel though that my wife is still worthy of standing by, because I feel she does have geniune motives for having a family, raising children well, and doesn't want actually want a divorce or to raise a family on her own. I'm concerned about the feelings of my family, but more so on my lack of control on the housing situation, and the kind of support/time I could balance to support my wife in her current location.
> 
> Also her instability is a massive factor for me, and I'm trying to assess the affection/mood she has for me at the time. It fluctuates wildy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is not about a house or physical possessions if you think it is you are lying to yourself and rationalizing. You can never please your whole family so please stop trying, they either love for who you are or they don't. 

I believe her moods are so in flux, because she has issued you an ultimatum and has been unwilling to enforce it, she goes back and forth in a desperate effort to get you to recognize this for what it is, time to choose, you can't split things like this, either you love her and are willing to be with her regardless of what family thinks, or you don't and hence need to stop wasting her time.


----------



## zeezack

Foxguy, yes I feel my wife has set an ultimatum, do take into consideration though - I don't have a key to the house as of yet, so its not a home where things are necessarily equal. Maybe my family say she is banned as an expression of anger, am I banned no. I am trying not to waste her time, and remained faithful and patient during a separation, but being given the option to leave and have your bags packed nearly each weekend is no picnic to take. So I am trying to assess the situation on my own terms, defend my wife where necessary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

You have to understand I have real strong attachments to my wife. She is my first girlfriend, as I am her first boyfriend. Its been hard retaining a mixed cultural and long distance relationship in the past. We have been together for nearly 8-9 years. I feel we were working out ok in the 1st/half way through the 2nd year of marriage, but things went ary in mid 2012, then got worse in 2013.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> You have to understand I have real strong attachments to my wife. She is my first girlfriend, as I am her first boyfriend. Its been hard retaining a mixed cultural and long distance relationship in the past. We have been together for nearly 8-9 years. I feel we were working out ok in the 1st/half way through the 2nd year of marriage, but things went ary in mid 2012, then got worse in 2013.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm pretty sure this train has been off the tracks for far longer than you realise.


----------



## zeezack

I spoke to my wife, she feels we could aim to just get a bunkbed for the flat for now, and she will compromise and stay in london part of the week. If a 1-2 bedroom property around the area comes up, maybe consider selling the flat to get it. She knows the flat is of high quality though and could get a bit more worth out of it for now. She tells me not to worry and to control my mind to be a wise man. She has been warm and welcoming tonight and has enjoyed my company. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PBear

zeezack said:


> I spoke to my wife, she feels we could aim to just get a bunkbed for the flat for now, and she will compromise and stay in london part of the week. If a 1-2 bedroom property around the area comes up, maybe consider selling the flat to get it. She knows the flat is of high quality though and could get a bit more worth out of it for now. She tells me not to worry and to control my mind to be a wise man. She has been warm and welcoming tonight and has enjoyed my company.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let us know in 3 days how it goes...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sh987

zeezack said:


> She has been warm and welcoming tonight and has enjoyed my company.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well... She'll be warm and welcoming right up until you don't do the next thing she wants, then she'll be packing your suitcase and threatening to divorce you...

Life on a yo-yo, zeezack-style.


----------



## zeezack

sh987 said:


> Well... She'll be warm and welcoming right up until you don't do the next thing she wants, then she'll be packing your suitcase and threatening to divorce you...
> 
> Life on a yo-yo, zeezack-style.


I did make the pattern clear to her on saturday, and I was suprised she changed her mind and tried to coorperate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> I spoke to my wife, she feels we could aim to just get a bunkbed for the flat for now, and she will compromise and stay in london part of the week.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


9 years, and you are officially back to being roommates! Progress!


----------



## Blonde

> Well... She'll be warm and welcoming right up until you don't do the next thing she wants


or warm and welcoming till the sperm is successfully planted...

which I would not do if I was you, Z, unless and until BOTH places are on the market and you are shopping for a JOINT place.

You two are continuing to set this up all wrong... A married couple should live TOGETHER and parent children TOGETHER in the same home.

You have leverage now as she wants your sperm to make that baby... If you don't put your foot down NOW, I predict you don't get to participate much in parenting this child. This long distance M is not going to last


----------



## zeezack

Blonde said:


> or warm and welcoming till the sperm is successfully planted...
> 
> which I would not do if I was you, Z, unless and until BOTH places are on the market and you are shopping for a JOINT place.
> 
> You two are continuing to set this up all wrong... A married couple should live TOGETHER and parent children TOGETHER in the same home.
> 
> You have leverage now as she wants your sperm to make that baby... If you don't put your foot down NOW, I predict you don't get to participate much in parenting this child. This long distance M is not going to last


I have tried to reason with her on this, but for now she won't budge on the selling of the house. I have told her of my concerns, her latest proposal was the bunk bed. If there is a 1-2 bed place coming up then to consider if its within budget. She didn't want to sell the house to get the 4 bedroom place as she felt - given the age of the property and the number of people that have lived in it, there is likely to be negative mental energies in the rooms.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Getting a bunkbed, may reduce some tension short term, but yes - I still feel getting a joint property, where we both agree, down to which schools we will like our children to go to, is the best course of action. She was looking at 3 bedroom bungalows in hertfordshire on sunday evening. I've told her time and time again, that this is a major conflict. The one thing my family may be right on, is I won't have much say on how the children are raised, as I don't even have much say in where we both shall live. This problem won't resolve itself in 1-10 years, so I really don't know what will happen. Last my wife said was to consider selling the house in maybe 5 years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PBear

Then tell her that's when you'll consider having kids. Seriously, if you get her pregnant to reward her with a week or month of "stability", you deserve the hellish roller coaster ride you'll be on for the rest of your life. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

At the risk of bruising my head on the brick wall, why not present her with divorce papers? You don't get a say in where you live, you don't get a key to your house, you don't have a marital bed (which, all things considered, is probably a good thing in your particular case), and, in fact, a child would be a bad idea, which is in itself a pretty damming indictment of the state of your marriage.

Bunk beds? That seems like a reasonable step? Get your head out of your ass. You have nothing to lose that isn't already long gone.


----------



## zeezack

Well just left for work. Before I left as I was finishing breakfast, she handed me a passport picture of myself and asked me to take it to get a railcard. I said what about the bunkbed approach and she said for this 1 month I still want you to come here during the week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rubpy3

ZZ, did you do anything special with her the past 2 days? (lunar new year)


----------



## zeezack

It is Chinese New Year, but she just wants to spend time in the Hertfordshire home and miss the events taking place in London. We have eaten some more traditional Chinese foods together, that's all really. 

I've measured up the bed in the flat to assess the top bunk idea. I am keen to get it soon, so I coild stay in London more with her etc... I've written another email to her - that I feel we should grow into London and use the Hertfordshire house as a weekend home if anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

What is the point of a bunk bed? Why on earth would you go along with that? You obviously can't see it, but you are shooting yourself in the foot, yet again. You are going along, to get along. Not rocking the boat, trying to please her. The thing is, that won't please her. You're a push over, quite frankly a wimp. She pushes and pushes, and you take it over and over. How far is too far for you? Nothing, it seems, and that's your biggest problem.


----------



## zeezack

Part of the issue, is I didn't spend enough working days in the house, as I worked later and further in London. After the separation, my current role - I can leave earlier and its closer to the right station - so I have been able to negotiate a schedule where I stay at the house. That will change in time , so I have made her aware of this. 2 weeks ago she considered selling the house. Despite raising my concerns/disagreements, she will not sell. The idea of the flat in the first place was to provide some flexibility and I included her in the process to ensure she would be happy staying there. She has turned the idea for the bunk bed down and we will just opt for me taking on a sleeping bag etc... If it saves 3 hours of the day and 23 pound I'll be all for it. She was very hard to negotiate with if I pushed for more than 3 days in london, so initially I opted for 2. I had to push over way more to get back on the wagon. But now its a case that I have stuck to my guns, as has she, but ultimately I need to find a solution to support her (and if possible a child in the future), moving forward, given my wife won't sell her place to get a joint property in the city where we both work in. I've told her Hertfordshire is impractical on so many levels and independantly on what she chooses to do, I will consider my options to sell the flat, for something that can provide more space generally, and for a greater yeild of investment. I am looking to gain leeway here on a practical level and control. I will need more control, if she weakens (job loss, pregnancy etc..). She is volitile at the best of times and this house situation is nearly a 2 year old tale.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## A Bit Much

I was curious, so I looked into it. London and Hertfordshire are 28 miles apart. It takes you 3 hours a day to commute back and forth? 

Split the difference and move to a city between the two.


----------



## zeezack

She also turned down the idea of me getting a rail card, as the prices have soared. It's over 1k for 3 months. 90 pounds for 7 days. Currently with my schedule - I may be spending 50-60. In reference to this house thing. I've always disagreed, quite strongly in the past, more passively now. I can choose to live on my own in a central london flat, or I can try and work out a schedule to live with my wife, who refuses to sell a 2 bedroom house in the sticks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

A Bit Much said:


> I was curious, so I looked into it. London and Hertfordshire are 28 miles apart. It takes you 3 hours a day to commute back and forth?
> 
> Split the difference and move to a city between the two.


Her house is 20 min walk to hitchin station, if you catch the right train it will get you in kings cross in 30 mins.

I did consider this, in fact I proposed moving to a station where the line cuts through. 2 weeks ago she did some research and labeled finsbury park as rough.

She won't sell. Not at this time at least. Her criteria are as follows. No tube to limited time on the tube (20 mins), good neighbourhood, good schools, good feng shui. So that currently puts us in favour of a very limited locale in north london. I have relatives living east london, by 40 mins on the tube, but that won't do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## A Bit Much

> She won't sell. Not at this time at least. Her criteria are as follows. No tube to limited time on the tube (20 mins), good neighbourhood, good schools, good feng shui. So *that currently puts us in favour of a very limited locale in north london*.


Since in the bolded you AGREE on a location, look there. If you find it, she should be happy to move.


----------



## zeezack

I'll keep my options open, try and get likely figures for what new house budget I could get on my own. I'm working in a good role, recovering from the first property purchase and the flat may have gone up in price. I'm just trying to see how me and my wife get along. She has warmed up a bit in her own way, started to see where I am in the house etc. I am doing some artwork at the moment, so I am not just sitting there just out of existence etc... She has tolerated it for the most part. Although if I propose a romantic movie of sorts, can be hard pushed to get her to co-watch it with me. But I am trying to get us to take on small activities that she wants to do as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

A Bit Much said:


> Since in the bolded you AGREE on a location, look there. If you find it, she should be happy to move.


Indeed. Currently all properties of interest in the area have been sold. The properties there go like hot cakes. I do have a meeting with my mortgage broker next week to go through potential figures. I want to be realistic as to how much the flat would sell for. Already had one valuation done, but think the guy is over optimistic. I feel if I present my wife with good schools in the area, and if she likes a place - I stand a greater chance of swaying where the primary maternal home is based for the benefit of the entire family unit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Visual

The age differences is causing all these issues in your relationship. Women are much more mature than men. This is especially true with Chinese women due to the culture. The reason she ignoring all your inputs because she is older and know much more than you. 

I think part of your parent interfering is because they love and want to protect you. People said that love is blind. Maybe they are see thing that you are denying to accept.


----------



## zeezack

Visual said:


> The age differences is causing all these issues in your relationship. Women are much more mature than men. This is especially true with Chinese women due to the culture. The reason she ignoring all your inputs because she is older and know much more than you.
> 
> I think part of your parent interfering is because they love and want to protect you. People said that love is blind. Maybe they are see thing that you are denying to accept.


I concur with that. We were going to go food shopping today, but when we wished her parents a happy chinese new year; the discussion about having children came up. I voiced my concerns but they were countermanded. Her mother was concerned about my wife having children soon. February has been labeled as my deadline. I am anxious about how I can support her in the maternal home's location, but she refuses to sell. Her mother tried to reasure me that they have money to help and that her daughter would stay more in London, during a late stage of pregnancy. Wife gave me the cold treatment, and even proposed me to stay in London tomorrow. I feel she is just upset with my responses, but that is how I feel and my concerns remain as such. I emailed my wife potential Chinese nanny's if it comes to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PBear

Why are you still considering having children with this woman? Why would you think your relationship with her will be any less stressful once you have children? If anything, it will be even worse, IMHO. Or maybe it will be easier, because she'll treat you with total contempt, and you can just live in London and send her money for child support every month for the rest of your life...

C


----------



## zeezack

PBear said:


> Why are you still considering having children with this woman? Why would you think your relationship with her will be any less stressful once you have children? If anything, it will be even worse, IMHO. Or maybe it will be easier, because she'll treat you with total contempt, and you can just live in London and send her money for child support every month for the rest of your life...
> 
> C


I understand the risks. When my wife initated the separation, I was in shock, because I knew she wanted children earlier - I thought she would reconcile within a month. Things got worse when she bought the house, due to its location and the disturbance of trust in doing so. But I knew she wanted to get a place asap in the hope of having children soon. I still feel the house is a problem due to its location but she doesn't consider my concerns as such. She thinks very differently, as to her parents. On the other hand my parents even last week felt I was making a mistake and even my uncle chipped in via his email to me on tuesday.

I've been with my wife for several years and I had no doubts when I married her in 2010. I never suspected she would buy a house like this and neglect my feelings/concerns like this. With no family (hers or mine) in this area - I am concerned. I'm more concerned at this stage her instabily and impatience in now wanting a child, 1-2 months after a reconcilation from a 6 months separation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rubpy3

ZZ, a Chinese woman has strong social pressure to have children at this point in her life (35yrs, right?)

STBXW had a cousin who was unmarried by 32 and her family was NOT proud of this at all. Every single family gathering, phone call, etc, would all involve pressuring her into marrying anyone and start her own family.

Understand this - most traditional family still view having children to the the first goal of a marriage. In her eyes, the very point of R maybe to conceive - finally sealing the deal, so to speak. 

Your hesitation to impregnate her maybe viewed as insensitivity to her + family needs, and may be viewed upon as failure to taking responsibility of a marriage - having children.

Getting conceived by Feb is maybe more a joke. With STBXW's family, they also consistently mention "next time you call us you better have good news!" but in the end it's you + wife's decision. 

But really, with her clock tickling, and you are sill hesitation, no wonder she is strongly irritated with you. Start a real Asian family or divorce her. Stop thinking so much and start acting.


----------



## SadandAngry

Oh my good man, you are totally hopeless, aren't you? You just don't get it, and you never will it seems. Look, she values that house more than you. And you are just fine with that. You ***** and moan, but you do not do anything about it. Your solution is to look for a third property! That will not fix your problem. Your so called wife has no respect for you. None. Consequently, you show through your inaction that you agree with her, which reinforces her lack of respect. 

Why don't you tell her you are not going to waste anymore time or money, and you are staying in London from now on. She is free to join you when she's ready to sell the house. No bunkbed by the way, your not her brother are you?


----------



## SadandAngry

rubpy3 said:


> ZZ, a Chinese woman has strong social pressure to have children at this point in her life (35yrs, right?)
> 
> STBXW had a cousin who was unmarried by 32 and her family was NOT proud of this at all. Every single family gathering, phone call, etc, would all involve pressuring her into marrying anyone and start her own family.
> 
> Understand this - most traditional family still view having children to the the first goal of a marriage. In her eyes, the very point of R maybe to conceive - finally sealing the deal, so to speak.
> 
> Your hesitation to impregnate her maybe viewed as insensitivity to her + family needs, and may be viewed upon as failure to taking responsibility of a marriage - having children.
> 
> Getting conceived by Feb is maybe more a joke. With STBXW's family, they also consistently mention "next time you call us you better have good news!" but in the end it's you + wife's decision.
> 
> But really, with her clock tickling, and you are sill hesitation, no wonder she is strongly irritated with you. Start a real Asian family or divorce her. Stop thinking so much and start acting.


How could the stress of adding a child possibly improve this situation?!?! These are two children playing at being adults themselves, constantly trying to control and manipulate each other for their own ends. There's no cooperation, no respect, no foundation for a family!


----------



## rubpy3

SadandAngry said:


> How could the stress of adding a child possibly improve this situation?!?! These are two children playing at being adults themselves, constantly trying to control and manipulate each other for their own ends. There's no cooperation, no respect, no foundation for a family!



This is a functional family, not a loving family. Functional in the sense that two people get together to make babies. There's no passion.

Maybe there was love in the beginning - the wife willingly slept on the floor for a year waiting for the husband to act. But again and again, ZZ let her down, to the point where she may even mildly despise him. But she has her familial duties - which is to have babies, and at this point in her life she doesn't have too much choice for divorce and start again. 

The R is probably a sign that she has "认命" - that she is acknowledging her fate. 

The wife is also probably sick of status quo - and absolutely can not respect ZZ as he is. She wants anything to get her life moving forward again. Having a baby is a sign of commitment, and may force two people to grow up. 

You can't just wait until timing is right for everything - wait until finish school, get good job, get house, save money, then have kid. Maybe just throw some wild cards into the mix.


----------



## SadandAngry

Dysfunctional is more like it. I agree, it would be exceptionally rare if everything was just right for a kid to come along, but this situation? Nothing is right. It isn't even close. It's a recipe for disaster for zeezack. She just seems to want a sperm donor and a cash stream, not a family. That's no life, no marriage. That's even worse than his present situation, and that's saying something!


----------



## zeezack

My wife is set to attend some function today. She is due to be in London soon. She requested me to leave to go back to London today. I left as per her request over 30 mins ago. The trains were delayed and she arrived just in time. When I tried to go on the same carriage with her - she retorted 'can you stop following me please'. She is now sitting in the other carriage angry and on her own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Just got this text from my wife this lunch 'DO NOT COME TO MY HOUSE'
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

What do you think of that?


----------



## rubpy3

The next person to knock on that door should be someone serving the divorce papers.


----------



## syhoybenden

Why do you put up with her crap?


----------



## zeezack

Well I went over to the house to collect my things. I am now back on the train with my belongings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## scione

I skimmed through this whole thread and I can see a general idea of what's going on. She's a very controlling person and everything has to be her way or no way.

I think in the end you should do what you want to do. Whatever you do, in the end you can't change who you are. You should not try to fool yourself into a person you don't want to be. If she's going to divorce because you are being who you are, then she will divorce you, if not now then in the future.

If you want to be a submissive husband, then do everything she wanted you to do. If you want to take control, then you have to be ready for her to not want to be with you anymore, or maybe she might see a man that she wants to be with. You just have to take a chance and be yourself.

Also, this is your family. Your parents should not have a say into what your family should be. I see many families that have been destroyed by in laws.


----------



## rubpy3

zeezack said:


> Well I went over to the house to collect my things. I am now back on the train with my belongings.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You responded to her bull**** rather than being proactive again.


----------



## zeezack

She just became non-responsive rubpy. She just sat there at her desk like its a normal day and didn't want to discuss anything. It seemed more important to her to remain calm and non-emotional. She did take the time to see me to the door. I asked her what's her plans were for the divorce and details and she just pushed me out the door, slammed it shut and locked it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

How do these events make you FEEL? What is an appropriate response? (note I'm not asking you what you are going to do, I'm asking, if you were advising someone else in your position, what do you think they should do? As a proactive measure? What would be appropriate?)


----------



## zeezack

I feel emotionally insecure with it all, my very concerns for not yet starting a family due to the instability of it all. Its sad really, I couldn't understand her mother (she spoke only in Chinese), but did detect the concerns of her daughter not yet having a child.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr The Other

zeezack said:


> I feel emotionally insecure with it all, my very concerns for not yet starting a family due to the instability of it all. Its sad really, I couldn't understand her mother (she spoke only in Chinese), but did detect the concerns of her daughter not yet having a child.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People are going to be very critical of you for not being pro-active. They are right in one way, but you are at your wits end and know it. It is hard to have confidence in your own actions under these circumstances.

I imagine that in six months time, you will breath a big sigh of relief (maybe a year, maybe a month). Hold onto that. In the meantime, just avoid responding to her. You have a job, get your money together, secure it and get yourself set up. 

Life is not about beginnings and ends, it is more about ends and beginnings.


----------



## scione

zeezack said:


> I feel emotionally insecure with it all, my very concerns for not yet starting a family due to the instability of it all. Its sad really, I couldn't understand her mother (she spoke only in Chinese), but did detect the concerns of her daughter not yet having a child.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you are trying to look at the other point of view, having the first child after the age of 34 running high risk of birth defect such as Down Syndrome. It's important for Asian people to have kids at younger age, especially Chinese, because of the workforce competition. The better the child's brain development the better their chances of success in their career.


----------



## zeezack

Its been over a week and there has been no contact from either me or herself. In late January, I was given an ultimatum to start a family with her by the end of february. On Feb 3rd - I was kicked out the house with most of my belongings. I could never imagine things would get this bad. I had the best intentions of buying a property with her in 2012. Despite the way she behaved in the past, 9 years is a long time and I will deeply miss her. My last attempts at trying to salvage the marriage were to provide her research on Chinese Nannies and to get a valuation on my flat. I saw the mortgage broker on saturday. He said the way my current assets stood I alone on a sole mortgage could get a property of 330k. It feels bitter sweet when me and my wife were scouring to get just a 200k place together. I suspect my wife will wait until April 2015 to file.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> I suspect my wife will wait until April 2015 to file.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What do you plan on doing in the mean time?


----------



## zeezack

I feel hurt by last week's events. I am just trying to keep a level head at the moment, keep on working and building up my cashflow. I feel I tried my best last month to try and rebuild the relationship. My recent 'mistake' this time was not opting to start a family 1 month after a separation, for the fear of stability and ongoing housing issues that remained unresolved. I feel I was trying to really consider her ultimatum and weigh up our options, short and long term, and then a week after passing on making babies immediately. I am back on the path to divorce. Passive agreeive behaviour I can try and tolerate, packing away belongings and leaving her house, upsetting.. I really don't know how I feel now. I really cared for my wife, but feel I have suffered a fair bit of emotional abuse over the last few months. I have fond memories of how she was in the past, and feel sad that we have lost communication, friendship, affection and companionship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

And at what point do you accept who she has become and say no, I don't want to live like this. I want communication. I want affection. I don't want to always be waiting for the shoe to drop. What you had is not what you have. It's ok to move on. 

Are you willing to go see a lawyer now? Why up your cashflow at this exact point? So that you can give her more in the divorce? Can you even see now, that you have made no progress what so ever? That perhaps those of us giving you advice are not in fact utter morons, hellbent on destroying your marriage, just for a lark?


----------



## zeezack

I never said you guys were larking about. I'm beefing up my cashflow - just to get out of any debt from buying the flat etc... 

I am really unsure about things now, given the way my wife has acted over the last few months. I have told her over a year ago - that I couldn't live with such instability. I also said this again nearly 3-4 weeks ago when she started to pack my bag on her own accord.

I feel like I did my best to be patient and yet stand up for myself when she started to falter/insult.

I did point out a few things over the last few weeks - break down in communication, lack of compromise on her part, the reality of my future work efforts and the stale affection.

I am usually the one to do the chasing and the begging, but now I feel that its best to leave her be for now. She seemed very sure of her decision to end the relationship again last Monday. I could understand if I was slipping on my efforts, but I was in the midsts of handling an important decision to bring a child into this world with the current situation and options, and I didn't even make it to the end of the month to make my own conclusions.

She just seems so unsatisfied at so many things, I do not know how to salvage things. Her feelings have been on/off since the very start of our relationship and I have chosen to let her go, to let her decide who/what she wants now.


----------



## SadandAngry

You consistently ignore the advice you are given though. You've continued to take the exact same approach the whole way along for the most part (chasing, begging, following her lead no matter how misguided, even when it is clearly pointed out to you), and you seem genuinely bewildered that you've achieved the exact, same result, ie nothing. Re read the thread.

Are you going to consult a lawyer, before you unwittingly make your situation worse for yourself? Find out the answer to the question What could she be waiting for? Automatic lifetime alimony? Something related to citizenship? What? An expert could tell you.


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> You consistently ignore the advice you are given though. You've continued to take the exact same approach the whole way along for the most part (chasing, begging, following her lead no matter how misguided, even when it is clearly pointed out to you), and you seem genuinely bewildered that you've achieved the exact, same result, ie nothing. Re read the thread.
> 
> Are you going to consult a lawyer, before you unwittingly make your situation worse for yourself? Find out the answer to the question What could she be waiting for? Automatic lifetime alimony? Something related to citizenship? What? An expert could tell you.


I am not ignoring the advice. I've already said that I am not looking to chase, beg or follow her lead any more. I have tried to reason with her and attempt a set of compromises on my behalf. It resulted to her wanting to start a family a month after getting back together, but when it came to trying to plan ahead, request more time and being made aware of my concerns which could likely have an impact - now I am back to where we were despite my best efforts.

If anything to go by - her plans to file for divorce in April 2015, may coincide with her acquiring an ILR visa in April 2013.

Do I have the option to contact a lawyer/solicitor. Yes I do. Do I want to be the one to pay for the process and indeed start the process to either call her bluff or finalize the situation - I need more time myself to consider that choice. A week and a half ago I was still accepted at the house, eating dinner and playing the role of husband, planning for the possibility of starting a future family, considering work conditions and my support network etc..

I also observed my wife's poor attitude (towards me and my family), passive aggressive behaviour, fragments of emotional abuse, emotional blackmail and growing incompatibility/depreciation for my interests. She has lost the need/want to communicate, the purchase of the house has made her more independent and less interested in acting as a team. She has become possessive of it and has used it against me again. I do feel that I have lost my companion, and that I am no longer supported emotionally.


----------



## SadandAngry

How accepted were you as a husband when you never got a key to your own house? How accepted were you as a husband when you were told to buy a bunk bed?

You do not need to go see a lawyer to initiate a divorce, the thought of taking action and being proactive like that obviously terrifies you. No, you need to go in order to gather information. You need expert advice on what your options are, what the consequences are of all your various choices. For once, don't set yourself up to be totally blindsided by what ever your wife chooses to do. Who knows, maybe you'll get told to move back in.


----------



## zeezack

I have emailed my situation to 4 solicitors for free advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> I have emailed my situation to 4 solicitors for free advice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good!


----------



## zeezack

Its my birthday today. I've not had contact with my wife now for nearly 2 weeks. The solictors wanted to set up a paid hour slot to discuss my options. After my last encounter with my wife - I don't see her wanting to work on our marriage anymore. My last email contained information on Chinese nannies. 3 weeks ago she wanted to make babies. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rubpy3

Buddy, great to see you make that decision. Now stick by your decision no matter what happens. 

It always amazes me how much clarity is brought about by distance in a relationship.


----------



## zeezack

She deleted me from her facebook on my birthday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I feel I've lost my life partner completely now. However bad she treated me in the past, I still have a great sense of attachment to her. If she does file, next year April, I will mourn the loss of the relationship and the loss of not having a family together. I've emotionally crashed, 3 weeks ago I was looking at school ofsted reports and Chinese nanny agencies, now I am totally emotionally and physically abandoned by my wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## syhoybenden

Cold *****.


----------



## syhoybenden

oops. I meant ... beeyatch.


----------



## zeezack

I don't know what to do anymore. My wife felt I was wasting her time, 2 weeks ago. I am tempted to write to her, but I've always done the begging etc... I don't know how I should always be the one to try and iniate a reconcilation. If my wife keeps giving up on the marriage, wants a divorce, wants a baby and then wants a divorce again it puts me on a steep emotional rollercoaster. She has a callous and passive aggressive nature. I worry about her a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I feel my wife is having a mid-life crisis, in which I am starting to react to. I try and make it through each day, but I am harbouring an underling constant state of sadness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rubpy3

ZZ, how childish does one need to be to delete someone fb account? That's high school kids behavior. I know you are an emotional wreck right now, but what you really gotta do is let this woman go - there's nothing left for you to salvage. Why are you so desperate to R with any person who hurts you callously? 

If you use gmail, setup a new tag for her, and setup rules to mark all her emails automatically as "read" and archive it. That way if you want to read it in the future you could, but you won't see anything.

I just had to go through the emotional detachment phase a week ago myself, and I still even *dream about* checking email to see if she responded. 

But trust me, it gets easier! First day or two I was a total wreck, I took time off work and didn't eat anything. Now, just a week of NC, she doesn't get on my thoughts until those wee hours of night.

You gotta make a conscious effort to stop communicating with this woman. It can't be "if she contacts me I'll ignore her", it has to be YOU ignoring HER, not the other way around. Block her email, block her phone, don't have a second to linger if you missed her contact, know that there will be nothing even if you open your inbox. YOU have to make the conscious effort to stop her communications.

It gets easier real quick!


----------



## zeezack

She has immense will power on her own not to communicate. I do love my wife and I felt I tried hard to re-assure her and try and get her to discuss her concerns and be open and honest with her. It saddens me she iniated a 2nd separation as I really tried to be proactive and patient with her. I was trying to take on a new formula where we could both co-exist. I feel this time I am shutoff because I didn't opt for having kids straight away (24th jan). My concerns for the instability were deemed correct when she gave up again on 3rd feb. Marriage to me and her is important. This period makes me doubt myself, but I can't this time as I was trying to be practial, realistic and careful with things. Did I blow my chance at having a family with my wife, because I wanted more stabilty and assurance, which in turn jeopardized my chances. It feels like such a circular situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sh987

I'm sorry, zeezack. I really am... But if you think you're unhappy now, it pales in comparison to how you'd be feeling if you had a family with her.

She emotionally abuses you. You can do better than that.


----------



## zeezack

I know, but I forgive her. I see this as a manifestation of maternal and cultural concerns. She wants kids, worries about the timeline, yet gives up so quickly on the marriage to encourage it to spiral to its demise. I feel all she wanted was a husband, a family but has become disillusioned. I will miss my wife and all that we had hoped for. But how many times can a man try and stabilize the marriage on his own?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rubpy3

Doesn't matter anymore now ZZ. She is too far gone emotionally for you to reconnect with her. Be honest with yourself, is this the same woman that you fell in love with all these years ago? If you just meet this woman now, even if you were single, would you give her more than the first date? Those are the questions that helped me to make up my mind to go NC with my stbxw.

Stop coming up excuses such as "maternal and cultural concerns" for her, stop rationalizing, stop giving this woman time of your day, stop thinking about this woman period! I'm not saying it's easy; read my thread and find out how bad I am. However buddy you'd be amazed by how clear your thoughts will get once you push her out of your head, even for a single day or two.


----------



## zeezack

I understand, just I've known her a long time. I see a consitent conflict in her. I love her, its like I feel oblidged to stay and help her. Last year when she grew angry and rejectful and I stayed, she was glad I didn't walk away. I am concerned for her, becoming a mother at a later age. I had plans, feel blameful of myself for not being able to resolve the house situation earlier. But I can't blame myself for her giving up on me a 2nd time. I feel she really would want to have kids with me and have a proper marriage, but the jigsaw puzzles are really misaligned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I've started to become tearful. I've just turned 31 and recall during the first separation, how I wanted us to have a daughter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rubpy3

We are about the same age. Everything that I own fits into a carry-on suitcase - that's all I had packed before leaving home and stbxw. Not even a checked luggage, just a backpack and a small carry on!

But ya know, that's what guys do - we pack up and go explore new territory. That's what our DNA tells us to do - go explorer new uncharted territory, go make new conquests, find new riches.

We are the generation of babied males, brought up where any exhibition of male characteristics are chastised and often punished. Males are becoming ever more feminine, with less confidence, yet more regulations; we gave up masculinity and embraced metrosexuality; we gave up the very defining traits of male and embraced the new vision of what a man ought to be.

So you end up shedding tears over a bad example of woman. Man stop this, wipe off those tears and turn it into motivation. Don't ever cry again, ever.


----------



## SadandAngry

She doesn't have any problem detaching from you, because she's been doing it for s long time already. You forgive her? I don't think so. You haven't expressed an ounce of anger, shown no concern for yourself. Maybe one day, and then you accept it, you detach and move on. There are many more women out there.

So your plan is STILL to sit back and wait for her to take action to dictate your life? How is it going with selecting a lawyer? Are you still eating properly? Still going to the gym? It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to go for a physical at your doctor's office. Getting your head straightened out would help too. Counselling would probably be a good idea, if you don't go into it looking for a way to get your wife back. Just to work on your own issues.


----------



## zeezack

I'm eating well, still going to the gym. I stopped counselling as it was becoming expensive. I don't need to go to the doctor's. I don't have the money or the time to see a lawyer, nor am I ready to take such action. The solictor's I emailed were asking for over a hundred for a 1 hour slot. I can't take time off work- I won't get paid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I just don't know anymore. I'm finding it hard to concentrate on work. Loosing the woman I've loved for years, first girlfriend, considering if I am ready for a child or if the current circumstances are making things more murky. Maybe she is right to end the marriage, we have been unable to form a proper union where the husband and wife agree on the same location for the maternal home. She seems so unsure of the marriage and yet wants a child at the same time. I feel so emotionally abandoned and abused. I thought we were making some progress here and there and then abandonment occurred.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

Well, from my persepective, I don't see how it could be any more clear that you weren't making progress at all. Adding a child into the mix would be nothing more than disastrous, don't forget that, no matter how foolish your wife wants to be.

You need to face facts. Your marriage is beyond repair. You need a lawyer. You cannot afford not to have proper representation and legal counsel. If you stick your head in the sand, you will get bit in the ass. If you are uncomfortable with the ones you have consulted this far, try some others. Perhaps look for reviews or references online. You've never answered the basic question of whether you even think that you personally have a stake in the house your wife chose to buy. Do you?


----------



## rubpy3

ZZ - everything I type here in this thread, is really also for myself. I am going through a separation + divorce myself with a woman that I love but don't respect or trust, and I need to constantly remind myself why I am divorcing her.

What's the point of getting back together? You guys have no intimacy, no reciprocating love, not even a stable atmosphere. What kind of living environment are you setting up for your kids? Is that what you want your kids to see - mom and dad sleeping on bunk beds? Mom flipping out, dad out crying. Man, think of the kids.

Dude, let go. If you truly love her, let her go. Stop being possessive.


----------



## zeezack

I feel like I'm having an emotional breakdown, for a week now I feel slightly jittery. The jan 24th offer of becoming a dad and failing to provide an adquate plan for my wife, my lack of confidence in being able to support her fully, with more time out emotional/physical abandonment invoked on 2nd Feb has left me purplexed. I woke up at 6 this morning feeling divorce would be the best solution, as I feel this cycle will incur in the future - with or without child. That my wife has always had this chain of just giving up on the relationship, emotional impatience and ease of abandonment of me. I feel her buying that house was a big mistake, it provided such uneven ground for control, abandonment, extra costs and reduced time in nuturing the relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr The Other

zeezack said:


> I feel like I'm having an emotional breakdown, for a week now I feel slightly jittery. The jan 24th offer of becoming a dad and failing to provide an adquate plan for my wife, my lack of confidence in being able to support her fully, with more time out emotional/physical abandonment invoked on 2nd Feb has left me purplexed. I woke up at 6 this morning feeling divorce would be the best solution, as I feel this cycle will incur in the future - with or without child. That my wife has always had this chain of just giving up on the relationship, emotional impatience and ease of abandonment of me. I feel her buying that house was a big mistake, it provided such uneven ground for control, abandonment, extra costs and reduced time in nuturing the relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It might be that you are close to a nervous breakdown. Years of living in a crazy situation will put you under strain.

If you can get time off work, please do so. See a friend and talk to them. This is a time when it is actually OK to cry on a mate's shoulder (there are not many).

There were big mistakes, there will be more, but worry about yourself and the present.  

A year from now things will be much better, keep that in mind.


----------



## rubpy3

zeezack said:


> I feel like I'm having an emotional breakdown, for a week now I feel slightly jittery. The jan 24th offer of becoming a dad and failing to provide an adquate plan for my wife, my lack of confidence in being able to support her fully, with more time out emotional/physical abandonment invoked on 2nd Feb has left me purplexed. I woke up at 6 this morning feeling divorce would be the best solution, as I feel this cycle will incur in the future - with or without child. That my wife has always had this chain of just giving up on the relationship, emotional impatience and ease of abandonment of me. I feel her buying that house was a big mistake, it provided such uneven ground for control, abandonment, extra costs and reduced time in nuturing the relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Go hang out with some dudes. I would still stay clear from family members however... that's going from one extreme to the other. Hell, most bartenders will listen if you talk.


----------



## zeezack

I've just been focusing on work and gym. I can't take time off otherwise I don't get paid. If only my wife would have done things jointly, things could have been a lot smoother. I understand her maternal concerns, but 7 months of separation, emotional and physical abandonment are not the ingredients I feel are right to bring up a child. I can't believe she even set the ultimatum - using emotional blackmail by threatening divorce if we didn't try for a child. I've not heard anything from her in nearly 3 weeks and my ultimatum deadline is nearly up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr The Other

Zeezak, I am not comfortable writing this, but I am not sure this forum is useful for you at the moment. You need to speak to someone in real life. Speak to a friend about it. Write it down with pen and paper, but only to yourself. 

The internet can be useful, but do not use us in place of speaking to someone in real life. Really, mate, I am worried about you


----------



## zeezack

I did speak to councilor about all this. Even she said the same thing. I do speak to friends/family about it. I have been speaking to Samaritans when I start to feel low/anxious. I can only say that I have strong attachments to my wife, its like I've grown extremely patient as if my wife has a condition. One condition being very passive aggressive - she has a very strict/stern mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr The Other

zeezack said:


> I did speak to councilor about all this. Even she said the same thing. I do speak to friends/family about it. I have been speaking to Samaritans when I start to feel low/anxious. I can only say that I have strong attachments to my wife, its like I've grown extremely patient as if my wife has a condition. One condition being very passive aggressive - she has a very strict/stern mind.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good, and well done on speaking to the Samaritans. That shows you are taking it seriously. Good luck, mate.


----------



## Starstarfish

> If only my wife would have done things jointly, things could have been a lot smoother.


While I think you've made great progress and an amazing choice to stop dealing with this insane situation, I think if your only conclusion is that only your wife should have made different choices, you are really unlikely to learn from this going forward into future relationships. 

Your wife made more choices, but not all of your decisions were joint decisions either. I think if you want to move forward, you need to also recognize that you made some bad choices as well, and not just lay it all at her feet.


----------



## zeezack

Sure I made some bad choices. I didn't kick myself out of a house in her name twice though. I have a clear concious that I tried my best to restore the peace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Its been 5 weeks. I am finding things difficult. I feel I've been completely abandoned. 6 weeks ago my wife wanted to start a family and now she has completely detattached. I don't understand how she could be so unstable. She is not the kind of woman, to just put on her make-up and start dating at 7pm, she has developed a very regid lifestyle
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## easysolution

zeezack said:


> Its been 5 weeks. I am finding things difficult. I feel I've been completely abandoned. 6 weeks ago my wife wanted to start a family and now she has completely detattached. I don't understand how she could be so unstable. She is not the kind of woman, to just put on her make-up and start dating at 7pm, she has developed a very regid lifestyle
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry man. How are you? Eating well? Are you getting any help from your family and friends?


----------



## zeezack

I just get bouts of complete berevement. I really helped her - come into the country, find work, worked harder to try and build up a house deposit.I wanted to get a joint mortgage with her - have the choice as to where to live like any husband would. Ironic my work is going well, but my love life is completely absent. Eating and going to the gym regularly. But I feel lost.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

How are you spending your time Zeezak? Best to keep your mind, hands and attention occupied elsewhere. 

There is still a lot of focus here on your STBX. She is a nutjob doesn't respect you or want you. You are better off without her.

Are you a KISA? Maybe a little co-dependent? Work on it.


----------



## loveadvice

Wow, this thread has gone on for a long time. I was at first turned off by the subject headline. I didn't know why your wife being of Chinese descent would have anything to do with anything. 

Without having read the entire thread, it seems to me that you are very unhappy with your wife to have gone on this forum for weeks and still not feel a resolution to your problem.

If you haven't already, I suggest that you seek the help of a professional therapist or psychiatrist to help yourself move on from this relationship.


----------



## zeezack

Tron said:


> How are you spending your time Zeezak? Best to keep your mind, hands and attention occupied elsewhere.
> 
> There is still a lot of focus here on your STBX. She is a nutjob doesn't respect you or want you. You are better off without her.
> 
> Are you a KISA? Maybe a little co-dependent? Work on it.


Just working and preparing my portfolio for future jobs. Spending time at the gym and in the company of friends.

She is my first girlfriend, and I her first boyfriend. Been in a relationship with her for nearly 8 years. Long distance relationship for a long time. My attachments to her are intense. When I was starting my career - I remember waiting to pass my probation period just so I could use my first holiday to go out and spend time with her. There was love and respect.

I am in limbo. I'm a man who thought he was playing the role of a husband and for a time I was. But now I've been pushed out of the playing field. I am independent and can support myself - but I am still left in an unsettled emotional state.

I knew in late January it was not yet time to start a family, I just didn't think a week later I would be exiled for good based on what I felt was a logical decision to hold back. I couldn't establish an even ground, a mutual understanding, a compromise or an equal basis with her.

However mistreated I have been. I find myself at times having a calm and forgiving centre and in my quake of emotional despair on the whole only wishing the best for her and her decision.

If she does try to invite me back to the house - I am now really stumped as to what to say or do. I need to protect myself emotionally now and I really don't know what else - practically/logically to propose to her for a 2nd "reconciliation" resolution if she does indeed try to mitigate it, if it ever does come round. I doubt it now though, I really did lay all my cards on the table to practically consider a reality for if we had children in the current state of play.

All I can say - is from my knowledge of her, she had a strong dedication to marriage. Even to the extent of trying to patch up other relatives marriages that had fallen with the use of Feng Shui.


----------



## zeezack

loveadvice said:


> Wow, this thread has gone on for a long time. I was at first turned off by the subject headline. I didn't know why your wife being of Chinese descent would have anything to do with anything.
> 
> Without having read the entire thread, it seems to me that you are very unhappy with your wife to have gone on this forum for weeks and still not feel a resolution to your problem.
> 
> If you haven't already, I suggest that you seek the help of a professional therapist or psychiatrist to help yourself move on from this relationship.


I've found it difficult. I wanted to try and resolve the situation - from a small blip - but it became prolonged and more disconcerting. Even Christmas and New Year's was a rough ride. I saw a counsellor around October as I went into shock. My wife became so passive aggressive - she wouldn't even talk to me on the phone, and I had resorted to her reading emails whilst she was in China without a reply. I ended my sessions with the counsellor though back in December.

I was very much hands on back in early Jan-late Jan with the potential of considering becoming a father in the near future and investigated my support network and finances/living space moving forward.

I have nothing much more to email her - so she can passive aggressively read the email and provide more silent treatment. I can't stop my wife from leaving me. Just how many times must a husband try and convince his wife to stay in the relationship, to fuel the relationship etc... I may be punished for not trying to start a family with her. But if this is anything to go by - I made the right choice to date - for both of our sakes. Otherwise she could be 5 weeks pregnant now and looking to be a single parent to her first child.

I am shocked though - if she truly wanted to start a family with me, why on earth would she then turn round 6 days later and kick me out the house. I am confused as to how someone could become so fickle when it comes to marriage/children.


----------



## loveadvice

zeezack said:


> I've found it difficult. I wanted to try and resolve the situation - from a small blip - but it became prolonged and more disconcerting. Even Christmas and New Year's was a rough ride. I saw a counsellor around October as I went into shock. My wife became so passive aggressive - she wouldn't even talk to me on the phone, and I had resorted to her reading emails whilst she was in China without a reply. I ended my sessions with the counsellor though back in December.
> 
> I was very much hands on back in early Jan-late Jan with the potential of considering becoming a father in the near future and investigated my support network and finances/living space moving forward.
> 
> I have nothing much more to email her - so she can passive aggressively read the email and provide more silent treatment. I can't stop my wife from leaving me. Just how many times must a husband try and convince his wife to stay in the relationship, to fuel the relationship etc... I may be punished for not trying to start a family with her. But if this is anything to go by - I made the right choice to date - for both of our sakes. Otherwise she could be 5 weeks pregnant now and looking to be a single parent to her first child.
> 
> I am shocked though - if she truly wanted to start a family with me, why on earth would she then turn round 6 days later and kick me out the house. I am confused as to how someone could become so fickle when it comes to marriage/children.


I suggest you stop thinking about why she is doing what she is doing and why what she is doing never seems to make any sense. You will just drive yourself batty thinking about why she is passive aggressive and why she is doing such shocking things. YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO FIGURE HER OUT. And, it is not because she's Chinese and from another culture. She's just not that into you. 

You need to stop caring about what she is doing and go and file divorce papers and start focusing on yourself and finding out what YOU like. Please focus on you and stop focusing on her. It seems very compulsive and obsessive for you to keep belaboring this hopeless situation. You are enabling your own abuse by not moving on with your life and stopping all this nonsense. 

Focus on you, please.


----------



## trilobite

loveadvice said:


> And, it is not because she's Chinese and from another culture. She's just not that into you.


It's not _just_ because she's from another culture. The other culture thing can exacerbate problems.


----------



## zeezack

I glanced over her linkedin and it looks like she lost her job in November. She lost another job in April and I didn't find out about that until she told me a month later.

I did ask her about maternity leave in January and she did say "what if there isn't any"; but I didn't anticipate she was jobless. It explains a lot.


----------



## Tron

Have you ever heard the term "oneitis". You've got it BAD Zeezac!

This woman is supremely unstable. You haven't been on any solid ground with her for months. This problem with her jobs is more indication that she has major issues she has no interest in working on. 

Time to cut her loose.


----------



## zeezack

I understand what you are saying Tron. I just have a very strong empathetic nature. Despite her behaviour, it hurts me knowing she may have been jobless for months. I believe I made the right choice in late January about not starting a family, and yet I feel a bit cut up that she is shooting herself in the foot with her own rejecting mannerism.


----------



## bandit.45

zeezack said:


> I glanced over her linkedin and it looks like she lost her job in November. She lost another job in April and I didn't find out about that until she told me a month later.
> 
> I did ask her about maternity leave in January and she did say "what if there isn't any"; but I didn't anticipate she was jobless. It explains a lot.



Well, I dont understand... how is she supporting herself?


----------



## zeezack

I suspect she is very careful with her savings and her family could be helping her out a little bit.


----------



## RainDrizzle

My cousin married a Chinese wife and he seemed to be happy with her; they have been married for almost 7 years now and from what I heard, his family likes his wife a lot. However, I have a co-worker who met his now Chinese wife in China when he traveled there 2 years ago and they got married half a year ago. His situation is somewhat similar to yours except the buying house in secret part. His wife was withdrawn and quiet with his family, might be because she's shy but she never tried hard to interact with his family. And from what my co-worker tells me, his wife would nag at him a lot for living in a rented apartment and not buying a house. She used to go to school early for the class she takes at a nearby college and come home late even though the class was less than 2 hours long. According to him, she decided to live at the college dorm this semester even though the apartment they used to live together in was only 15 minutes away from her college by walking. He had asked her if she is seeing someone at her college. But she would never directly deny it and only act very angry at him for asking. 

I am not in a position to give you any solid advice as I don't know much about your wife. But I think the buying a house without your consent is a huge red flag. My cousin's Chinese wife is great and everybody in the family likes her. She doesn't speak English too well, but she tries very hard to interact and be friendly with the family. But in your case, I think it might not have much to do with her Chinese cultural differences, and the issue resides in her personality. If you can live with her personality and temper, then there is much tolerance and hard work. Otherwise, get a divorce and find someone better. Someone that will respect you, be honest with you, treat you right and never tries to kick you out or throw a chair at you.


----------



## loveadvice

trilobite said:


> It's not _just_ because she's from another culture. The other culture thing can exacerbate problems.


The problems OP are having with her (e.g., buying a house without his consent) are not cultural problems. I am Chinese. I can tell you that it is not in our culture to buy property without consulting our husbands. She is a crazy person just like any other crazy person of any color. She is not acting like a loving wife and that has nothing to do with color or culture. It has to do with her character.


----------



## bandit.45

loveadvice said:


> the problems op are having with her (e.g., buying a house without his consent) are not cultural problems. I am chinese. I can tell you that it is not in our culture to buy property without consulting our husbands. *she is a crazy person just like any other crazy person of any color. *she is not acting like a loving wife and that has nothing to do with color or culture. It has to do with her character.


amen!!!


----------



## zeezack

I'm finding this tough. I feel a lot of anxiety. I've known this woman for 9 years. My first girlfriend and I her first boyfriend. I have a deep attachment to her. I feel she is making highly passive aggressive movements towards me for not starting a family with her. I keep feeling a sense to act - especially if she seems content in no contact.


----------



## zeezack

I've not heard from my wife in 7 weeks. I feel strong waves of bereavement. I feel like I have emotionally crashed. I am starting to feel insecure of my own intentions and goals now. All I wanted was to stabilize the relationship and discuss about having kids properly. Uncover our support network and access our finances together. I had to discover on my own last week my wife doesn't even have a job. She is giving me some heavy silent treatment. Working hard and saving money on my own is something, but this limbo state is really what I was trying to avoid all over again.


----------



## Mr The Other

zeezack said:


> I've not heard from my wife in 7 weeks. I feel strong waves of bereavement. I feel like I have emotionally crashed. I am starting to feel insecure of my own intentions and goals now. All I wanted was to stabilize the relationship and discuss about having kids properly. Uncover our support network and access our finances together. I had to discover on my own last week my wife doesn't even have a job. She is giving me some heavy silent treatment. Working hard and saving money on my own is something, but this limbo state is really what I was trying to avoid all over again.


Move on from limbo. Life is not a series of starts and ending, but really endings and starts. If you can be happy (which you were), then you can be happy again.

Hang in there, talk to mates.


----------



## SadandAngry

You are choosing limbo. It's got nothing to do with your wife, and everything to do with you. These are issues that you'd need to deal with regardless. If you are utterly lost, now is when money spent on councelling would be money well spent.

Not to salvage your marriage, but to help you figure your self out. Perhaps look up Brene Brown online, and watch her TED talks. It's a place to start.


----------



## Tron

SadandAngry said:


> You are choosing limbo. It's got nothing to do with your wife, and everything to do with you. These are issues that you'd need to deal with regardless. If you are utterly lost, now is when money spent on councelling would be money well spent.
> 
> Not to salvage your marriage, but to help you figure your self out. Perhaps look up Brene Brown online, and watch her TED talks. It's a place to start.


:iagree:


----------



## SadandAngry

I know what it feels like. I do. I had a relationship come apart after engagement, not of my choosing. I jumped through lots of hoops, but it was never enough for long. 

You don't realize it at the time, but that's complete bull****. There are lots of other women. Your wife is not all that special. She isn't THE one. No one is. No person will make you complete, except you. That's the thing, all you need is with in you. Somebody else is nothing more than icing on the cake, and you are icing on theirs.


----------



## Tron

SadandAngry said:


> I know what it feels like. I do. I had a relationship come apart after engagement, not of my choosing. I jumped through lots of hoops, but it was never enough for long.
> 
> You don't realize it at the time, but that's complete bull****. There are lots of other women. Your wife is not all that special. She isn't THE one. No one is. No person will make you complete, except you. That's the thing, all you need is with in you. Somebody else is nothing more than icing on the cake, and you are icing on theirs.


The sooner you realize this the better off you will be.


----------



## zeezack

I spoke to another counselor yesterday. I started experiencing anxiety and panic attacks again.

The counselor claimed that I've experienced emotional abuse and supported my stance in not having children at this time.

Its been about 8 weeks now since I last heard from my wife - in any form. I can't believe how toxic the relationship has become. I knew that the purchase of that house was a mistake, I just didn't see this toxicity growing to this level.

I work so hard, all I wanted was a joint house, discussions and choice on joint decisions like any husband would want. To have children because of love, not because of instructions.

I'm recovering my savings now, and work is going well. That's about all I have at the moment. That and my fitness.


----------



## zeezack

My job is so technically demanding, demanding of my time and emotion. I have NO emotional support, no time to repair the relationship, no time to overcome my own fears of becoming a father, no control of the maternal home, it and its location, any sign of will is dismantled by threats of abandonment, divorce and withdrawal of affection.

I went to a nearby park on sunday to try and get some air. I hovered around the children's area (no one was there) and thought about the child/children I may never have with her. I got upset and had to leave.


----------



## Tron

Stop doing this to yourself.

What have you been reading lately?


----------



## zackie

zeezack said:


> Its been about 8 weeks now since I last heard from my wife - in any form. I can't believe how toxic the relationship has become. I knew that the purchase of that house was a mistake, I just didn't see this toxicity growing to this level.


What relationship? You said she hasn't spoken to you in 8 weeks. You need to move on.


----------



## zeezack

I understand what you are saying. But 9 weeks ago she wanted to try for a family. I am just bewildred she opted for a 2nd separation, when one of my main concerns was stability.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PBear

Dude,

People have been saying for months that your wife isn't playing with a full deck. Stop trying to rationalize her thoughts and decisions, and focus on yourself. Like why were you willing to put up with her abuse for so long. Stop depending on getting closure on her actions to make yourself healthy. Or you'll be forever stuck where you are. 

As far as I recall, you're not exactly old, are you? 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

I'm 31. Its been now 3 months since I've seen her. I go over my recollection of the events each day and feel that my actions were rational. It was January 24th - and in the evening she proposed to go upstairs and make babies. When I declined for the chance to focus on stabilizing the relationship she retorted and said I could leave tomorrow morning. She provided me with an ultimatum to try for children by the end of February or divorce. A week later - she kicked me out the house. I find out later in March she probably lost her job and was hoping she would fall pregnant with me trying to fully support her with no maternity benefits. In mid November she was thanking me for not starting a family, in late January she was calling me "****ing stupid" for not doing so. I feel things did become very toxic with her, that she became emotionally abusive towards me and tried to control the relationship in an unhealthy way. I wanted to start a family with my wife, but not under these conditions. 2 years back things were much more stable but I knew I was on borrowed time with the housing situation and when she just went ahead on a house purchase without me, I knew it was a wrong move for the relationship but tried to cope with the changes.


----------



## zeezack

I was trying to do the right thing. Trying to patch up the relationship, smooth things with the family on both fronts. I had my parents and my sister miffed requesting I don't start a family with my wife. I had my wife still unstable and threatening divorce on small rule breakages and giving me the option to leave or packing my bags for me each weekend in January. Then she wants to try for children - without giving me a full picture of her job status.

I felt really insecure living in the house, with her pulling the rug under me asking me to go all the time. I felt insecure in knowing how I could support her there properly with her due with child. Plus the emotional abuse I was getting here and there - Signs of Emotional Abuse | World of Psychology - I would answer yes to at least 65-70% of these items. How to Recognize a Manipulative or Controlling Relationship 

I find the current abandonment very difficult and at times still feel shock; it can be emotionally draining. At the same time I accept the reality that my wife has completely disconnected and I think has been for a very long time. She seems to have no problem at all in not contacting me.


----------



## syhoybenden

Consider yourself having dodged a bullet by sheer dumb luck.

Now disentangle the legalities.

Prepare to enjoy your life.


----------



## alphaomega

44 pages later and you talk like you didn't take anyone's advise.

Your still pining away exactly like your first post.

Your the only one that can make a change, bud. Things aren't going to sprout rainbows and skittles magically out your a$$, and then everything will be all roses.

Take charge of your life.


----------



## zeezack

syhoybenden said:


> Consider yourself having dodged a bullet by sheer dumb luck.
> 
> Now disentangle the legalities.
> 
> Prepare to enjoy your life.


Its tough - because she did have good qualities. I do question her empathy though. If she contacts me on the off chance of trying to salvage the marriage - would it be genuine etc... Its a far cry from the wife I knew in 2011. Her more recent behaviour is shocking to me, its almost like being married to Jekyll and Hyde. In one sense I am scared to have children with her now due to an erratic controlling and marriage fleeting behaviour, on the other hand I see my wife as she was with a genuine desire to have a marriage and children.

I love my wife, but I feel she is too unhappy to attempt a reconciliation this time. Too unhappy in the marriage if she doesn't have her own way, unable to compromise, controlling which must be a drain on her, now unable to socialize with my immediate family. She has my number - if she really wanted to have children wouldn't she have called and tried to patch things up way before 3 months of silence occurred - again.


----------



## zeezack

alphaomega said:


> 44 pages later and you talk like you didn't take anyone's advise.
> 
> Your still pining away exactly like your first post.
> 
> Your the only one that can make a change, bud. Things aren't going to sprout rainbows and skittles magically out your a$$, and then everything will be all roses.
> 
> Take charge of your life.


Going through the motions man. It is my life after all and having children or getting a divorce - my choice or not - hard calls to make. She is my first girlfriend and I her first boyfriend. I have a lot of attachment to her and really went above and beyond what some folk would do or take. Sponsoring a wife on a marriage visa for 2 years conditioned me somewhat to grow more attached to her. Concern for her health, job, living etc.. thought I would keep you posted with news or no news. I mean first there is the shock of being told she really wants a divorce, then you get silent treatment for months, then you "reconcile" for a bit, she wants to have babies immediately, then shuts me out again with further silent treatment. Except this time I really feel she has had enough. I feel like I've been made a widower.


----------



## WhiteRaven

zeezack said:


> Going through the motions man. It is my life after all and having children or getting a divorce - my choice or not - hard calls to make. She is my first girlfriend and I her first boyfriend. I have a lot of attachment to her and really went above and beyond what some folk would do or take. Sponsoring a wife on a marriage visa for 2 years conditioned me somewhat to grow more attached to her. Concern for her health, job, living etc.. thought I would keep you posted with news or no news. I mean first there is the shock of being told she really wants a divorce, then you get silent treatment for months, then you "reconcile" for a bit, she wants to have babies immediately, then shuts me out again with further silent treatment. Except this time I really feel she has had enough. I feel like I've been made a widower.


Move on bro. Do you want a repetition of this craziness after there are kids in your life?


----------



## zeezack

Yes this is the concern isn't it. It was bad enough last year when she would get annoyed and not pick up the phone. I said to my friend then - its one thing to not be able to contact her, but if we had children I would be denied a connection with them.


----------



## WhiteRaven

zeezack said:


> Yes this is the concern isn't it. It was bad enough last year when she would get annoyed and not pick up the phone. I said to my friend then - its one thing to not be able to contact her, but if we had children I would be denied a connection with them.


Forget how she can hurt you. Think how she would hurt the kids too. Worst crime you can commit is having kids with her.


----------



## zeezack

I said this to her in mid Jan - it was a saturday and she had half packed my bag for me giving me the option to leave. I said - you can't act this way - if we had a child etc... she seemed to agree and said it would be the last time and - then 3 weeks later I was allowed into the house just to take my things.


----------



## zeezack

WhiteRaven said:


> Forget how she can hurt you. Think how she would hurt the kids too. Worst crime you can commit is having kids with her.


Its a real mind bender this - its like I have seen how she is with children and this is part of the attraction I have with her. That is well educated, a teacher etc... but this lack of empathy and her treatment of me - I said to her about this in relation to our children - but she denies it would be the case. Still I wonder. Its one thing being well mannered to other people's children - but when it comes to family. If she acts this way towards me - would she do so with her own children, eventually.


----------



## WhiteRaven

zeezack said:


> If she acts this way towards me - would she do so with her own children, eventually.


She may, she may not. Are you really willing to take the chance?


----------



## rubpy3

ZZ, how's everything man. You are too tightly wound up. I can't help but to think that this job of yours is also keeping you on your edge. When was the last time you had a long, relaxing vacation?

Years ago I also had a highly technical + involved job, that required me to be on call 24x7. That job was probably one of the reasons that stbxw and I started growing apart in the first place. 

Each morning when you wake up, are you excited to go to work? Or do you have to drag yourself out of the house and bed?


----------



## zeezack

Hey Rupby,
I've been out of work since 2nd April. I start a new contract next week, but it has some irregular hours. Most days will be normal, 9 - 6:30 - but there will be night days 8pm-2a.m.

I did warn my wife about this around mid-January. 

To be honest I feel really emotionally drained, I've not heard from her in nearly 4 months. I last saw her on 3rd Feb when I retrieved my stuff from the house. 24th Jan she wanted to try for children - and I hesitated because I wanted to gain more stability (in the relationship and in the family) and resolve the housing situation. I was concerned about getting her pregnant and having her just stay at that house -as I had no control. Its located 2 hours from me and my family if there was an emergency. I was worried about it. I was trying to do the right thing by trying to push back on starting a family. She was so unstable - offering me to leave, packing my bag in jan. I felt she had trouble tolerating me being at the house. But more so - she lacked the personable/relationship skills to tolerate any partner.

I have't been sleeping well - especially with no work. I have tried to keep a regular pattern - but I am just not resting well. I've been completed abandoned emotionally and physically - this is effecting me. 

I think she has NPD.
The Narcissist and Emotional Abuse | The Narcissistic Life

In particular over the years and especially recently.


Withholding - Withholding love, affection, empathy, and intimacy

Countering - like me telling her not to buy that house in 2012 but she overruled in favour of good Feng Shui

Discounting - again my concerns/fears for the purchase of the house, for not starting a family. (tells the partner those ideas are insignificant, incorrect, or stupid)

Blocking and diverting - my wife never sat down to discuss any major decision properly

Accusing and blaming, Judging and criticizing 

Threatening (include threats of divorce, of leaving)

Forgetting asking me to forget about abuse (like her packing my suit and asking me to go back on the train)

Ordering - Treating the partner as a child or a slave. In January she wanted me to be home on set days, boil water with the holy water.


My marriage with my first girlfriend of 9 years meant a lot to me. I feel if we had bought a house together in 2012 or 2013 and she hadn't fallen out with my family and maintained her behaviour during those ventures. The natural fear aside of becoming a parent for the first time could have been overcome with love (instead of threats of divorce). 

I feel emotionally abused because legally we are still married and her intentions to file for a divorce may not happen until April 2015. She has made no effort to contact me, but I do feel the strings of a yoyo. I had a very deep sense of commitment being married - and I know she also values this on a cultural level - its like she is going through a major conflict. She is under pressure to start a family and yet doesn't want to be married to me. Her commitment to the relationship oscillates wildly. Her mother was being asked if I was impotent as the reason why my wife has no child yet. Even her mother agreed with the threat - that we try for children by end of February or divorce. I did find this shocking given knowledge of the instability. I couldn't start a family based on threats of a divorce, especially as I was tackling the logistics of starting a family in terms of time, finances etc... it was all too much for me. I felt so insecure in that house and in the relationship in Jan - I had to keep "fighting" her to resume the relationship and to express her feelings - let alone start a family. In November she was thanking me for not having started a family, by end of Jan I was being called a ****ing stupid idiot.

I've tried to let things go - as if she has died. I am suffering from bereavement, loss of friendship I had with her, the relationship, loss of a future family with her, maybe post traumatic stress from verbal/emotional abuse. 

I have tried to tell myself that this is her choice, that she chose to kick me out of the house and I shouldn't feel so sympathetic towards her on this, that she chose that house and in a way shaped this situation since 2012. She does not meet half of my needs/concerns half way. That when I did try and tackle problems head on I always ran the risk of abandonment. That essentially she is not happy - and that I was trying to fill a pool of sadness with pockets of happiness - that I was the one trying to fuel the relationship and keep it going. I feel like my count down to start a family with her in now in negative digits and this is ultimately now why she won't come back.

I will miss her, and I have prayed that she will find herself a good man to replace me.


----------



## Miss Independent

When will you file for divorce?


----------



## zeezack

spinsterdurga said:


> When will you file for divorce?


I don't know, earlier this year I was looking at the logistics of starting a family with her. I am not ready to file for a divorce. My relationship (early on) and my marriage meant something to me.


----------



## Miss Independent

zeezack said:


> I don't know, earlier this year I was looking at the logistics of starting a family with her. I am not ready to file for a divorce. My relationship (early on) and my marriage meant something to me.



Your marriage is over. You have to move on and stop wondering what happened. Get individual counseling as well to learn why you want to be married to a woman who treats poorly


----------



## zeezack

spinsterdurga said:


> Your marriage is over. You have to move on and stop wondering what happened. Get individual counseling as well to learn why you want to be married to a woman who treats poorly


Legally my marriage is not over. I am getting individual counselling. My wife didn't always act like this - but I am not saying I condone her behaviour or conduct. I am trying to live my life, but I can't help wondering what happened to me in the last decade - the good and the bad. Either way I am not ready to file for divorce myself.


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> I have prayed that she will find herself a good man to replace me.



Why would you wish that on some poor, unsuspecting guy?

Seriously, you need to find your self worth and validation from within, you are way, way too invested in your tormentor. Do something for yourself by filing the papers. The marriage that wasn't, isn't. Get your head out of the sand and live your life!


----------



## Miss Independent

zeezack said:


> Legally my marriage is not over. I am getting individual counselling. My wife didn't always act like this - but I am not saying I condone her behaviour or conduct. I am trying to live my life, but I can't help wondering what happened to me in the last decade - the good and the bad. Either way I am not ready to file for divorce myself.



Why aren't you ready to file? You need to move on. She made her decision, so there's no point in hoping that she'll change her mind


----------



## zeezack

spinsterdurga said:


> Why aren't you ready to file? You need to move on. She made her decision, so there's no point in hoping that she'll change her mind


She is my first girlfriend man. I really loved my wife. Its not I haven't thought about filing out of anger - of course. I am more taken back by the shock of it all. Shock of abandonment, passive aggressive tactics. I've been out of work for a bit so I want to build up more savings etc... 

I can't pin point why I have not filed. I guess I think very carefully about such things - like as an old man looking back - did I make the right choice myself - my wife can make her own choices that is out of my control. But the choice myself to end what I valued so greatly. 

She had good qualities and in some ways would make a very good mother, but its really been her conduct over the last year and her entire dismissal of the marriage that has become prolific. I had a lot of responsibilities towards her - she is essentially on her own in this country - now living by herself - and I am currently her only family member per say. Its not just her that I had a strong allegiance too, its still fresh in my mind signalling to her father I would look after her.

Am I ready to file for divorce and abandon her - no I am not.


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> Why would you wish that on some poor, unsuspecting guy?
> 
> Seriously, you need to find your self worth and validation from within, you are way, way too invested in your tormentor. Do something for yourself by filing the papers. The marriage that wasn't, isn't. Get your head out of the sand and live your life!


and to answer that reply - I recognise the abuse and don't agree with it. Yes I invested in my wife. I am trying to live my life, but these events are happening to me now. I am living with the changes now - and conditioning myself with the abandonment for someone I cared so much for - is equivalent to the feelings a person would have for a missing person. Its only natural I will go through such feelings of loss.


----------



## Catherine602

As long as you don't stay stuck in this. You are right - go through the complete grieving process so that when you move on, it will be with no residuals.


----------



## zeezack

I feel I need to overcome my feelings of anxiety, depression, bereavement first. I don't feel as much of a panic attack these days compared to how I felt back in October/November. It was good to get back together for a time during Christmas, see the good and bad moments roll out. She has lost the will to bond with my family on a social level, and she has very little respect for me. With her insistence to start a family in Jan. I took this on board not only as a threat but further proof of her low attachment to me. I value my decision to not start a family - out of gut instinct I had little to no control and could not gain an equilibrium with her. I had to act to protect myself, herself and a child from entering into an unstable marriage.

I am flabbergasted to be honest - I proposed marriage counselling again in late December and she refused. I find it ironic that she does/does not want to have children with me, almost on the bearing she does/does not want to be married to me. I don't feel I could be so indecisive about wanting a relationship/marriage or children (not saying we can't change our mind), but for her it was almost on a daily/hourly basis. 

I remember Feb 1st being Chinese New Year - she was happy and we put up some decorations - and she was keen for us to speak to her mother to wish her mother well on the celebrations. After that hour though - she switched back into a digression of the marriage - and it was in that hour she started to decide about ending the marriage again. If that conversation with her mother had not taken place - would we still be together - potentially having a happier marriage - with a baby on the way. Really is like walking on egg shells, so unstable and unpredictable.


----------



## bandit.45

Did she use you to get residency, and then once you served your purpose nonchalantly cast you off?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

bandit.45 said:


> Did she use you to get residency, and then once you served your purpose nonchalantly cast you off?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really don't believe that. She was reluctant to come back to the country - as she had a good job in China - and she felt like a second citizen here. I am her first boyfriend as well and I really do feel she had strong affections for me. 

She had good intentions, - same with buying the house. Its just for me that location doesn't work well. 

At first that was all there was, but then she started to criticize and fall out with my family.

Now we have complete abandonment - which could be a npd ploy to try and make me give in or become more submissive.


----------



## A Bit Much

I have a friend who was engaged to marry a chinese woman. He is NOT chinese and her family never accepted their relationship. Ultimately she broke off the engagement and started dating a chinese man. Her family pressured her to only marry within the culture and she as their daughter was almost forced to do so or be disowned by them.

My friend hurt tremendously behind her choosing her parents over him. He wanted to believe she was 'westernized' enough to realize that she could choose the life she wants, not what they want, but she could not disobey them in the end. 

Zeezack I think this is what has happened to you. You have been a good husband to her, but that's not the point. You are not the husband her family wanted for her. She's been suffering with this for 9 years and now she's finally decided she was done disappointing them. Her extended family will always come first.

ETA: Maybe her demands for a child was her last attempt at making things right with them... after all how can they reject your marriage with a child? Their grandchild would have made it tough to NOT accept you fully.


----------



## john117

zeezack said:


> I really don't believe that. She was reluctant to come back to the country - as she had a good job in China - and she felt like a second citizen here. I am her first boyfriend as well and I really do feel she had strong affections for me.



One cannot begin to comprehend the amount of deception and such affiliated with getting a residency permit in a more desirable part of the world regardless of current situation.

Plot a timeline of her behavior over time since you met. Horizontal is time in months or weeks, vertical is good vs bad.

On the same chart mark the various paperwork submissions, interviews, etc needed for where you are. I'm in the USA and there's plenty of them here. See what she has left - if any - and see how her behavior correlates with paperwork progress.


----------



## john117

A Bit Much said:


> I have a friend who was engaged to marry a chinese woman. He is NOT chinese and her family never accepted their relationship. Ultimately she broke off the engagement and started dating a chinese man. Her family pressured her to only marry within the culture and she as their daughter was almost forced to do so or be disowned by them.



We are in a similar cross culture (feels like cross species to me) marriage, me from a not quite wealthy European country and her from a Central Asia theocracy. We got around parental objections by sort of eloping but I don't think we ever did get full buy-in from her folks...

In retrospect her parents may have known she was not local marriage material - based on her sister's behavior - and so put her into the 'export use only' column...


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> and to answer that reply - I recognise the abuse and don't agree with it. Yes I invested in my wife. I am trying to live my life, but these events are happening to me now. I am living with the changes now - and conditioning myself with the abandonment for someone I cared so much for - is equivalent to the feelings a person would have for a missing person. Its only natural I will go through such feelings of loss.


You misunderstand. You derive too much of your self worth from your wife. Your self worth does not depend upon others, it depends on you and your attitudes and your actions. Which is great, because you have control of those things. You can mend the dysfunction in that regard. 

Your wife is not like a missing person, she is consciously and deliberately choosing to treat you badly, and has done for quite some time. The facts that she is Chinese, aging, your first girlfriend, etc., etc., etc. ad nauseum, are irrelevant. What matters is the two of you created a very dysfunctional relationship, and now she has effectively ended it. She has also shown quite definitively that you would be very unwise to trust her, that she has zero concern for your best interest. You need to look out for yourself. You need to legally sever yourself from having any further responsibility for any of her choices.

She lied to your, tried to control you, tried to manipulate you. You know this. You need to accept the reality of your life, and get over the 'loss' of the fantasy you are moping about. It never existed. Nothing you have written here has ever pointed to the existence of a strong, healthy, resilient relationship. Instead it describes a lot of expectation without a lot of communication, empathy, or compromise, which lead to resentment and disengagement.

You say you are living with the changes now. I say you are suffering the consequences to be sure, but you are dwelling on a past that doesn't exist anymore, if it ever did, and wishing for a future based upon a bunch of what ifs, and if onlys. You are shoulding all over yourself, and that will get you nowhere.


----------



## zeezack

A Bit Much said:


> I have a friend who was engaged to marry a chinese woman. He is NOT chinese and her family never accepted their relationship. Ultimately she broke off the engagement and started dating a chinese man. Her family pressured her to only marry within the culture and she as their daughter was almost forced to do so or be disowned by them.
> 
> My friend hurt tremendously behind her choosing her parents over him. He wanted to believe she was 'westernized' enough to realize that she could choose the life she wants, not what they want, but she could not disobey them in the end.
> 
> Zeezack I think this is what has happened to you. You have been a good husband to her, but that's not the point. You are not the husband her family wanted for her. She's been suffering with this for 9 years and now she's finally decided she was done disappointing them. Her extended family will always come first.
> 
> ETA: Maybe her demands for a child was her last attempt at making things right with them... after all how can they reject your marriage with a child? Their grandchild would have made it tough to NOT accept you fully.


I don't feel that is accurate though - we had been together for 8-9 years and I did feel accepted by her family. They were happy for me to marry their daughter - and seemed supportive about it. From what I can recall - they tried to reason with her - to try and make the marriage work, compromise. I feel though that in the end my wife is just highly passive aggressive, and she is very strict on herself and onto others, high expectations and almost borderline obsessive rules. She became highly authoritarian mostly after the separation.


----------



## zeezack

john117 said:


> One cannot begin to comprehend the amount of deception and such affiliated with getting a residency permit in a more desirable part of the world regardless of current situation.
> 
> Plot a timeline of her behavior over time since you met. Horizontal is time in months or weeks, vertical is good vs bad.
> 
> On the same chart mark the various paperwork submissions, interviews, etc needed for where you are. I'm in the USA and there's plenty of them here. See what she has left - if any - and see how her behavior correlates with paperwork progress.


I would say she has always been an unstable character of sorts. Its hard to say - she was very affectionate at the start of the relationship, much more open to showing affection (french kisses), but that tailored off after marriage - although we did start a more sexual relationship (before marriage she remained a virgin).

Her behaviour really tilted off when she bought that house in 2012. She was pissed off at me for not going along with it then, annoyed with my family for their lack of financial support, then became more critical throughout early 2013. Saying stuff like "I wish your mum never met your dad". I remember her starting to talk about divorce as close as November 2012, (in April 2013 mentioning she may return to China to her friends), then May 2013, then August 2013 and beyond. 

Its like she always had one foot in and one foot out. Even when I bought this studio flat - she opted out of the deeds in June - and also said in May not to add her to my will.


----------



## zeezack

I go half and half on what you say.

"Your self worth does not depend upon others" - I agree on that, but still being abandoned by your wife does make one inevitably feel worthless. But I know I did what I could to the right thing, so I can't let this take its toll on me.

"Your wife is not like a missing person" - sure I understand that - but its the same feelings you get for a "person that is missing". 


"The facts that she is Chinese, aging, your first girlfriend, etc., etc., etc. ad nauseum, are irrelevant" - well they are and they are not, I won't use these as deciding factors for sure.

"very dysfunctional relationship, and now she has effectively ended it. She has also shown quite definitively that you would be very unwise to trust her, that she has zero concern for your best interest. You need to look out for yourself." - well that's the concern isn't it. I tried to make things a functional relationship - but my wife seemed insistent on doing things in a hotch potch way. I don't believe she had mal-intent - but now I just can't trust her decisions - I don't even think she knows/trusts her own emotional states.

"She lied to you" - she never has - but sure she wasn't really forthcoming on a LOT of things.

"fantasy you are moping about" - it wasn't like this at all back in the day - before the purchase of that house - there was love and commitment in the relationship and she enjoyed the company of my family. "Nothing you have written here has ever pointed to the existence of a strong, healthy, resilient relationship. Instead it describes a lot of expectation without a lot of communication, empathy, or compromise, which lead to resentment and disengagement." - back in the day there was a strong relationship, even on a long distance - there was communication if not always a stable empathy. This is what part of my shock is really - I recall a time back in 2009 - she became upset in front of her parents because I had failed to call her in China. Now its been 4 months and she has not even attempted to call. She has it in her head a( I don't want children ever, b) I missed the window in late Feb from her ultimatum. I've known her to be difficult - but now she has become really unreasonable.

"dwelling on a past that doesn't exist anymore, if it ever did, and wishing for a future based upon a bunch of what ifs, and if onlys" - yeah well I will go through the motions. I monitored my thoughts and behaviours back in Dec-Jan - I know I tried my upmost to be myself, express myself and yet try to keep the peace and do the right thing. I still feel not starting a family in late Jan - was the right thing, but it is unsettling how - by starting a family there and then I could have avoided this second separation - or looming divorce. I stand by my choice though to try and stabilize the relationship, at least assess the situation logically for if we did start a family and look into the trend in finances and support. I am astounded in someways my wife seems so fickle over her views on our marriage/children - and other people's relationships. 

She is in conflict. She always believed you should stick with one person in your life - she tried to repair my Uncle's relationship with his wife by looking at the Feng Shui of their house in 2012. She even said to me in Jan - that my sister should get back with her former longer term ex-boyfriend. I find it ironic now - I am here handling closure on my own.


----------



## zeezack

I do feel - that if no family conflicts had arisen and she had bought that house in London alongside me - or waited until we got a joint house - there is a strong possibility - the abusive behaviours would not have occurred and we could have started a family with love as a foundation.


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> I do feel - that if no family conflicts had arisen and she had bought that house in London alongside me - or waited until we got a joint house - there is a strong possibility - the abusive behaviours would not have occurred and we could have started a family with love as a foundation.


If only again.

You were right not to try for a child in Feb. That was a ridiculous situation, and a child would not improve things at all. They create stress and problems, they don't solve them!


----------



## Dr House

I will be blunt. This marriage is not going to have happy ending.

I am reading up to page 12 and this is what I thought :

You are not emotionally matured - you are 30 year old who still goes to Comic Cons and various conventions that are really catering to the teenagers. You still havn't get your sh*t together with no car and not even driver's license; and you are still mostly attached to your family for support.

You seem to be putting her last (attending comic cons speaks *VOLUMES* of how wrong this is in a marriage) and the gravity of your assessment of her seems to be mostly of the negative side - coming from *YOUR FAMILY*. 

The worst part about this is how you handle the whole situation. You are emotionally immature - leaving her "space" (and thinking you are a gentleman) when it was the very reason she left you. *SHE WANTS YOUR TO FIGHT FOR HER*, she wants you to be *A MAN*, not a boy. You can't be a teenagers and stay up all night or go to bed late having 'alone time' playing computer game or reading comic books or watching porn and expect her understanding. I am pretty sure that's the reason she is demanding you to go to bed with her at 10:30PM. This is a woman who wants to have a family *WITH YOU, TO HAVE CHILDREN WITH YOU*. You continue to act like a teenager and still think everything is going to be alright. A matured adult like her sees and knows this. She is looking at you hoping you can be a *FATHER* for her children, and right now you don't strike me as someone who is matured enough to be one.

Either way, I think you seriously have a lot of growing up to do.


----------



## zeezack

Dr House said:


> I will be blunt. This marriage is not going to have happy ending.
> 
> I am reading up to page 12 and this is what I thought :
> 
> You are not emotionally matured - you are 30 year old who still goes to Comic Cons and various conventions that are really catering to the teenagers. You still havn't get your sh*t together with no car and not even driver's license; and you are still mostly attached to your family for support.
> 
> You seem to be putting her last (attending comic cons speaks *VOLUMES* of how wrong this is in a marriage) and the gravity of your assessment of her seems to be mostly of the negative side - coming from *YOUR FAMILY*.
> 
> The worst part about this is how you handle the whole situation. You are emotionally immature - leaving her "space" (and thinking you are a gentleman) when it was the very reason she left you. *SHE WANTS YOUR TO FIGHT FOR HER*, she wants you to be *A MAN*, not a boy. You can't be a teenagers and stay up all night or go to bed late having 'alone time' playing computer game or reading comic books or watching porn and expect her understanding. I am pretty sure that's the reason she is demanding you to go to bed with her at 10:30PM. This is a woman who wants to have a family *WITH YOU, TO HAVE CHILDREN WITH YOU*. You continue to act like a teenager and still think everything is going to be alright. A matured adult like her sees and knows this. She is looking at you hoping you can be a *FATHER* for her children, and right now you don't strike me as someone who is matured enough to be one.
> 
> Either way, I think you seriously have a lot of growing up to do.


You haven't really read the thread very well at all. I may not have a car or a license - but I do have a 70k+ job/career. I was doing my upmost to support her - even after she bought a house without me. Don't assume its a convention every weekend - they only come along twice a year - and also don't slash me down with such prejudice on what is a million dollar industry and a taste for higher art.

You can only fight for someone so long - when all they do is reject you. I have no power in the relationship - down to communication and the location and ownership of the maternal home. The last time I went to the house I had to speak through the letterbox so she would come to the door and let me take my box of stuff.

If I wasn't doing a job that required technical focused attention, late nights, evening, holiday work - and (on this occasion I will be working at 8 - 2 a.m.) - I could have made the house my home, provided I was treated like an equal and given a key.

"You can't be a teenagers and stay up all night or go to bed late having 'alone time' playing computer game or reading comic books or watching porn and expect her understanding. I am pretty sure that's the reason she is demanding you to go to bed with her at 10:30PM. "

Yeah why don't we replace all this with - demanding I go to bed - in separate rooms - not with her. 

I don't think I ever listed those off hour activities - try swapping that for learning/applying Java Spring MVC with mongodb nosql services alongside heavy javascript backbone js development to try and ensure I keep getting a round of 400 pound a day jobs. I may not have a car or a license - but I was bloody trying hard to support a dysfunctional marriage with the insight of solving this and having children. Engaging with them in higher education and creative ventures.

I wanted equal partnership.

So if I get a driving license that gets unused in Central London - and stop going to conventions I auto become a man do I? I am sure there are worse things a man can do, like have an affair, go to the pub or gamble the kid's college money away. Give me a break bud. I don't come on here, to be scorned for my hobbies - I did my higher education and worked hard to try and make a life for myself and my wife.

I see this is your first post. Welcome to the board.


----------



## Starstarfish

> I do feel - that if no family conflicts had arisen and she had bought that house in London alongside me - or waited until we got a joint house - there is a strong possibility - the abusive behaviours would not have occurred and we could have started a family with love as a foundation.


The problem here isn't the OP's hobbies the issues is this - this big onus that if only the wife hadn't had difficulties with the OP's family (IE "behaved like she was supposed to") and hadn't had such a strong opinion about their living situation (IE "gone with the flow") things would have been perfect. You took classes to learn Chinese to understand her better, but it had the opposite effect - it just meant more time spent away from her in the city by yourself. 

In the end - you both made choices that weren't conducive to the growth of the relationship. I think you weren't speaking each other's "language" and I think pressure and influence from parents on both sides made things worse.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Dr House said:


> I will be blunt. This marriage is not going to have happy ending.
> 
> I am reading up to page 12 and this is what I thought :
> 
> You are not emotionally matured - you are 30 year old who still goes to Comic Cons and various conventions that are really catering to the teenagers. You still havn't get your sh*t together with no car and not even driver's license; and you are still mostly attached to your family for support.
> 
> You seem to be putting her last (attending comic cons speaks *VOLUMES* of how wrong this is in a marriage) and the gravity of your assessment of her seems to be mostly of the negative side - coming from *YOUR FAMILY*.
> 
> The worst part about this is how you handle the whole situation. You are emotionally immature - leaving her "space" (and thinking you are a gentleman) when it was the very reason she left you. *SHE WANTS YOUR TO FIGHT FOR HER*, she wants you to be *A MAN*, not a boy. You can't be a teenagers and stay up all night or go to bed late having 'alone time' playing computer game or reading comic books or watching porn and expect her understanding. I am pretty sure that's the reason she is demanding you to go to bed with her at 10:30PM. This is a woman who wants to have a family *WITH YOU, TO HAVE CHILDREN WITH YOU*. You continue to act like a teenager and still think everything is going to be alright. A matured adult like her sees and knows this. She is looking at you hoping you can be a *FATHER* for her children, and right now you don't strike me as someone who is matured enough to be one.
> 
> Either way, I think you seriously have a lot of growing up to do.


Sorry, this was funny. It's like you stepped out of the 1950's with your disdain for comic books and comic cons. The average age is no longer 4-12. Movie and TV studios actually spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, to advertise and hold panels at these conventions. Yes, even with adult TV Shows like Dexter and Game of Thrones. In 2014, women are closing in on 40% readership and the male average age is 27-35. Comic-cons cater to everyone and actually more so toadults.


----------



## alphaomega

Comicon chicks always look so hot.


Well, except when they dress up as lumpy space princess.

"What the lump?!"


----------



## alphaomega

Zeezack,

I'm still frustrated with your posts...


They seem to follow the same idea...."what if...."

I get that what you are going through is extremely difficult.

Not much else I can say here. This is one of those journeys you need to do yourself. One day, in your head...you'll come to one of these realizations, or maybe all of them...

"what the frack was I thinking!"

"Ahhhhh! I get it now!"

"fu(k! What a crazy beotch!"

"I'm done! Who gives a flying fu(k anymore!"

...fill in some other epiphany here...

In time, bud. Your still entangled with the emotions. Soon you'll see what you need to.


----------



## zeezack

Starstarfish said:


> You took classes to learn Chinese to understand her better, but it had the opposite effect - it just meant more time spent away from her in the city by yourself


It is only a night course - and I took it without even knowing that we would "get back" together. But yes ironic she said the same thing, even though I started the course when she was screaming for a divorce.


----------



## zeezack

alphaomega said:


> Zeezack,
> 
> I'm still frustrated with your posts...
> 
> 
> They seem to follow the same idea...."what if...."
> 
> I get that what you are going through is extremely difficult.
> 
> Not much else I can say here. This is one of those journeys you need to do yourself. One day, in your head...you'll come to one of these realizations, or maybe all of them...
> 
> "what the frack was I thinking!"
> 
> "Ahhhhh! I get it now!"
> 
> "fu(k! What a crazy beotch!"
> 
> "I'm done! Who gives a flying fu(k anymore!"
> 
> ...fill in some other epiphany here...
> 
> In time, bud. Your still entangled with the emotions. Soon you'll see what you need to.


Yeah well - I see the issues. I also know the loss. In many ways she was a good and loving wife - but that house changed the dynamics a lot and things went astray. I sponsored her in the country, and she only came to the UK to be with me. Even though I didn't kick myself out of the home, my mind does wander. Its one thing to be a married man, looking after someone you love from another country - helping them secure work, food, living etc... and another being flung back out into a bachelor world again.

The irony is - I really only wanted an equilibrium of things and to ensure we were more London based - to strengthen the family overall and provide more time/cost effective means of living. eg... 1 home, on one of the tube dendrites. With our wages combined we could have formed a very secure standard of living. We shared similar principles on education, quiet life style etc.. 

Its like she has assumed a set straight of constants and disregards what I have said to her. I've never known anyone to be so passive aggressive.


----------



## Starstarfish

zeezack said:


> Yeah well - I see the issues. I also know the loss. In many ways she was a good and loving wife - but that house changed the dynamics a lot and things went astray. I sponsored her in the country, and she only came to the UK to be with me. Even though I didn't kick myself out of the home, my mind does wander. Its one thing to be a married man, looking after someone you love from another country - helping them secure work, food, living etc... and another being flung back out into a bachelor world again.
> 
> The irony is - I really only wanted an equilibrium of things and to ensure we were more London based - to strengthen the family overall and provide more time/cost effective means of living. eg... 1 home, on one of the tube dendrites. With our wages combined we could have formed a very secure standard of living. We shared similar principles on education, quiet life style etc..
> 
> Its like she has assumed a set straight of constants and disregards what I have said to her. I've never known anyone to be so passive aggressive.


The house was the squeaky wheel, not the fundamental problem. You and your wife had a basic disagreement about where you wanted to live and raise your family. You wanted to stay in the city and travel by tube, she wanted to move out of the city.

Your reason for wanting to stay in the city changes in different posts. Was it more cost effective? Or was it to be closer to your family in times of emergency? 

Neither of you really wanted to compromise, but expected the other person to give in. In the end, you bought and maintained seperate homes because there was no agreement on this basic point.

I feel like you are losing this idea, OP, by falling into the trap of spending more time trying to analyze and label your wife's behavior (she's the most passive aggressive person you know, etc) rather than seeing the bigger picture.

You both had ideals and expectations the other person didn't live up to. The fact that both your families helped reinforce that idea was another nail in the coffin because you weren't a united front against that nonsense. And you still don't see it as that, but pine for the idea of her just being what your family wanted your relationship would have had more love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Starstarfish said:


> The house was the squeaky wheel, not the fundamental problem. You and your wife had a basic disagreement about where you wanted to live and raise your family. You wanted to stay in the city and travel by tube, she wanted to move out of the city.
> 
> Your reason for wanting to stay in the city changes in different posts. Was it more cost effective? Or was it to be closer to your family in times of emergency?
> 
> Neither of you really wanted to compromise, but expected the other person to give in. In the end, you bought and maintained seperate homes because there was no agreement on this basic point.
> 
> I feel like you are losing this idea, OP, by falling into the trap of spending more time trying to analyze and label your wife's behavior (she's the most passive aggressive person you know, etc) rather than seeing the bigger picture.
> 
> You both had ideals and expectations the other person didn't live up to. The fact that both your families helped reinforce that idea was another nail in the coffin because you weren't a united front against that nonsense. And you still don't see it as that, but pine for the idea of her just being what your family wanted your relationship would have had more love.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


- reason for staying in the city - work commitments, cost and time effective in terms of travel, closer to the family in times of emergency and care for children.

There was no discussion - I came back to the joint rented flat at 19:30 - said - you saw that place in Hertfordshire - she then said yes, I am going to buy it. I said what. Please do not buy that house. Do not buy that house.

My reasons listed in an email to her were - work commitments, social circles, my dislike for the area, wanting a joint mortgage etc... she maintained it was good feng shui. At first she didn't mind if I didn't live there full time - wasn't given a key initially - she was happy for me to come back just at the weekends, but I knew this was ineffective and I knew this would cause problems. Then she began to criticize my family - then disconnected fully from the relationship in july-aug. Even when we got back in Nov - claimed it was out of pity.

If I felt it feasible to support her there properly and balance work commitments, and she got along with the family - then we could have started a family. But her value on love is skewed.


----------



## zeezack

I only got the flat in London, because I was left with 100% rented payments, and got out of the rental market. With her permission and her attendance we viewed a place in May 2013 - and put a deposit down. By Aug 2013 - when I got the keys - she initiated a 1st separation. I was hoping - she would stay at least at the flat 1 day a week - save commute costs for herself and spend more time with me like usual - she knew I worked later and often. 

I was hoping we would - revisit this house situation after a while - and eventually form a compromise or a unification - I was hoping for a unification - in getting a joint mortgage. 

I told her in Jan - that house just doesn't work for me - on an average day I could be coming back to the house at 8p.m. - then going to bed at 9:30, waking up at 6:45 - leaving the house at 7:20. I said its ineffective in being able to support a family in this state. 

I said I couldn't guarantee I could make it back to the house at all on the promised times/dates. Ironically I now have a job where I will be working 8p.m.-2a.m. - they don't do taxi's from central london to hertfordshire.


----------



## zeezack

I never said I didn't want children, or wait until I hit close to my 40's. I wanted to give it some more time to stabilize the relationship - and try and arrange a way of us spending more time in London - so I can support her better - ideally having us sell both places - or at least let me get a 1 bedroom place - so she can stay there when due with child - and I can get back to her in a pinch if need be for emergencies - cut it down from 20-30 mins - instead of 2 hours. - As I could be working anywhere in London.


----------



## Starstarfish

zeezack said:


> - reason for staying in the city - work commitments, cost and time effective in terms of travel, closer to the family in times of emergency and care for children.
> 
> There was no discussion - I came back to the joint rented flat at 19:30 - said - you saw that place in Hertfordshire - she then said yes, I am going to buy it. I said what. Please do not buy that house. Do not buy that house.
> 
> My reasons listed in an email to her were - work commitments, social circles, my dislike for the area, wanting a joint mortgage etc... she maintained it was good feng shui. At first she didn't mind if I didn't live there full time - wasn't given a key initially - she was happy for me to come back just at the weekends, but I knew this was ineffective and I knew this would cause problems. Then she began to criticize my family - then disconnected fully from the relationship in july-aug. Even when we got back in Nov - claimed it was out of pity.
> 
> If I felt it feasible to support her there properly and balance work commitments, and she got along with the family - then we could have started a family. But her value on love is skewed.


Given how you site her inability to get along with your family as a main reason you didn't want kids with her, how at the same time could you argue they should be a factor in house placement based on child care? 

Just keep thinking about catch phrases like "her vision on love is skewed." I'd say you both had a problem in what you expected, but as always, labeling women as crazy and "off" is the easiest way to avoid personal responsibility in problems.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Starstarfish said:


> Given how you site her inability to get along with your family as a main reason you didn't want kids with her, how at the same time could you argue they should be a factor in house placement based on child care?
> 
> Just keep thinking about catch phrases like "her vision on love is skewed." I'd say you both had a problem in what you expected, but as always, labeling women as crazy and "off" is the easiest way to avoid personal responsibility in problems.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


- I just wanted things to simmer down a bit with the family conflicts. Buy time in arena - but also prepare properly for a family - just came out of a 5 month separation back then. She was unstable - offering me to go back to london and packing my bags each weekend in jan. 

She has no family here - and given my family are and near retirement - it made sense. I didn't even have a key, and even though I tried to be a bit more passive and control my own emotions etc... she would be judgmental, critical, argumentative and almost tolerant of me being in the house. Its ironic how she wants me there - set days/hours - but then doesn't seem eager to engage or do any activity - watch film etc... we slept in separate rooms - but I obliged because we had come out of a separation.

My options are as follows - I can try and keep calling her and texting her - to be given silent treatment. Run over to the house - 2-3 hour round robin to get answers - and spend 20 pound in the process - when she may not be in - or i may only get to speak through a letterbox.

I got to retain some self respect and pride. She has my number, my email - and has the ability to write - but won't. She has it in her head - no babies - no point having a relationship. 

I was trying reestablish the relationship boundaries then look into babies - thought that is how it should work


----------



## zeezack

Looking back at my actions - given I had no say in her purchase of the house - when I objected up front - even before she viewed the house - based on location alone. Then even when she got the house had no key initially - then through 2013 - she would confiscate my keys using my family against me. I did my best - but she had started by then to become emotionally abusive - upsetting me over the rejection of my family - and the lack of interest in my previous concerns over the house purchase. I was unsure then in march 2013 - how I could support a family coming home every evening if that at 8p.m. or later - I wanted to be a hands on dad - and with her rejecting my family that made it harder on me. Then I went into panic attacks when she outwardly refused the relationship and shut me out - like she has now.

I don't think she or her family know what to do now - given she seems bent on ending the relationship legally next year - from what I can tell.


----------



## SadandAngry

Have you gone to consult a lawyer yet?


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> Have you gone to consult a lawyer yet?


no


----------



## Miss Independent

zeezack said:


> no



Why?


----------



## zeezack

spinsterdurga said:


> Why?


because I just don't have the cash lying around, the time, or the emotional stability to know what to say, do or what - I am trying to just get to a point of closure on my own. Besides we have fairly separate assets so it would look to be a clean cut.


----------



## Miss Independent

zeezack said:


> because I just don't have the cash lying around, the time, or the emotional stability to know what to say, do or what - I am trying to just get to a point of closure on my own. Besides we have fairly separate assets so it would look to be a clean cut.



Why would you need emotional stability to talk to a lawyer?


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> because I just don't have the cash lying around, the time, or the emotional stability to know what to say, do or what


If you think money is tight now, continue to neglect protecting yourself legally, and you will wind up far worse. You can't afford not to defend yourself! Just tell the lawyer what your situation is, ask for advice, and follow it.



zeezack said:


> I am trying to just get to a point of closure on my own.


How? More importantly why? Whatever you're doing on your own seems to be failing spectacularly thus far.



zeezack said:


> Besides we have fairly separate assets so it would look to be a clean cut.


Says you. The law would say otherwise. Both properties are marital assets, and any debts incurred are also jointly held. She has been jobless as far as you know, since before the casting out if I recall correctly (there's your lie, of omission at the very least, she never told you that, did she?) You are responsible for at least half of her debts while the piece of paper is still in effect, maybe more since you're the one with an income. You have a job, and a level of success that indicates some intelligence. Do you not think it would be intelligent to be informed about the legal and economic implications of your marital situation? 

From a trained professional, not the part of you that wishes everything is fine, everyone is fair, and has the best intentions, and won't all of this go away and you and the Mrs. can be happily married for all of ever after, pretty please?

All sarcasm aside, get your head out of your ass and take a good look around. You'll pay dearly if you do not.


----------



## zeezack

I'm not going to talk to a lawyer, just yet. If she does anything legally, I will get some form of notification and then acquire a solicitor from there in out to handle things.


----------



## zeezack

spinsterdurga said:


> Why would you need emotional stability to talk to a lawyer?


I am just not there yet to do so. They charge hundreds - just for an hour of their time - seeking advice is one thing, getting legal protection is another.


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> I'm not going to talk to a lawyer, just yet. If she does anything legally, I will get some form of notification and then acquire a solicitor from there in out to handle things.


That is neither intelligent nor rational.


----------



## SadandAngry

zeezack said:


> I am just not there yet to do so. They charge hundreds - just for an hour of their time - seeking advice is one thing, getting legal protection is another.


What is the equity of both properties worth? What is your wife's debt load? How could you possibly know at this point, if you won't seek counsel?


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> That is neither intelligent nor rational.


I am not prepared to seek legal counsel yet. I don't have all the questions to ask and I don't know what I will do with the answers, I also don't have enough cashflow yet or the time to seek counsel at this stage.


----------



## zeezack

SadandAngry said:


> What is the equity of both properties worth? What is your wife's debt load? How could you possibly know at this point, if you won't seek counsel?


I've emailed Lindsey of my situation. See what she has to say. 
Lindsey Alexander | Partner and Collaborative Family Lawyer | TWM Solicitors Epsom


----------



## zeezack

So what questions should I push to them?

2 properties 
Chinese wife with ilr visa obtained in april 2013.


----------



## SadandAngry

separation last year, travails since she came back, complete separation as of Feb.. Financial situation now and in the past. Incidents or pattern of questionable behaviour if you have any corroborating evidence, like emails.


----------



## Dr House

zeezack said:


> I don't know, earlier this year I was looking at the logistics of starting a family with her. I am not ready to file for a divorce. My relationship (early on) and my marriage meant something to me.



I am sorry I sound mean before, but my points still stands. 
No matter how much "comic" is now a big business in Hollywood, it is still comic. No comic-book-turn-movie ever win an Oscar or Cannes. In this "post modern" world, people are now holding on to childhood like a badge of honor, and Hollywood is encouraging it because it is big money.


1 Corinthians 13:11:
When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.


I think comic books have ruined a lot of "boy-man" because of this unrealistic expectation. It keeps you in this childish/teenage mindset instead being an adult.

The comic book convention thing is just a social construct that typify a geek who never grows up and you fit that typecast perfectly - normally the cultural norm is you get your license and your car, you get a steady 9-5 job, you get married and you have kids. That's a social expectation - and straying from that expectation is probably the cause of it - she wants to have kids, to want the kids to see their father at regularly hours, to be able to drive the kids to soccer match or dance recital, to spend more time with kids *AS A PARENT* not as a physically grown kid who still into comic books and think it is "high art". That thing about going to bed at 10:30PM also tells me that is what she wants - she is expecting you to have regular job at regular hour - because having a partner with steady income and regular hours is probably something most women expected.

All that aside, what the real problem (from your description) is her - she is an abusive and horrible person. She may even be deceptive - feign niceness for the past decade. Either that or you are just too blind and ignore to see the real her. Your language in the thread tells me there is just no way to reconcile with her, as you already made up your mind about her - that her personality is abusive to you, and abrasive to your extended family. Most members in this forum would also agree with me - that if someone is this abusive, don't expect them to change when you have a child - that child is going to be abuse the same way. Would you want your wife to treat your child this way?


One thing that pops out at me is also how indecisive you are. You continue to procrastinate and put off a decision even when it is apparent to *EVERYONE* on this board that this marriage is over.

As an adult, you need to take responsibility, you need to make the hard decision, you need to have command of your emotion. You *NEED* to make rational decision even when your heart still lingers on and bleeding. YOU KNOW THE MARRIAGE IS OVER. YOU KNOW YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY RECONCILE, and EVERYONE here are basically telling you this, and yet you are still denying it and putting off the divorce.


Be a man. Grow up. See her for what she is, accept who she is or what she is. See the issues for what they are. Then do it. Move on. There is no point to salvage something unsalvageable. Just move on. You will feel better, and you won't be wasting your precious time on this earth on something that's not worth your time.


----------



## Dr House

john117 said:


> One cannot begin to comprehend the amount of deception and such affiliated with getting a residency permit in a more desirable part of the world regardless of current situation.
> 
> Plot a timeline of her behavior over time since you met. Horizontal is time in months or weeks, vertical is good vs bad.
> 
> On the same chart mark the various paperwork submissions, interviews, etc needed for where you are. I'm in the USA and there's plenty of them here. See what she has left - if any - and see how her behavior correlates with paperwork progress.




I agree, this is exactly what you need to do. Plot a time line.
It may not necessary correlate with paperwork and events, but I have a hunch it is close. You basically had *ONE* good year of happy marriage life - it is probably how much her "stamina" allows her to fake the nicess before she decided she can do it no longer. Also you were saying you were together for 9 years, but if I am not mistaken majority of those 9 years you were basically apart - she was in CHINA and you were in UK correct? You were basically spending the majority of your relationship long distance, and I must say those long distance relationship are like "fantasy" relationship - people are not who they are when they are chatting online. You assume this persona which is sort of like fantasy so when you actually reconnected - you assumed the previous 4 years as real relationship but it really is just not real. You are probably blinded by this, and you keep telling yourself (and us) that is not who she, she is this sweet person before all this happened suddenly. 

I can tell you *NOTHING* can just happen out of thin air. She can't possibly be this sweet person suddenly turn emotionally abusive sociopath. Occam's razor says simplest answer is the correct answer - and she is always been who she is - you just chose to ignore it and was believing this fantasy persona that she had.


----------



## Dr House

rubpy3 said:


> Understand this - most traditional family still view having children to the the first goal of a marriage. In her eyes, the very point of R maybe to conceive - finally sealing the deal, so to speak.
> 
> Your hesitation to impregnate her maybe viewed as insensitivity to her + family needs, and may be viewed upon as failure to taking responsibility of a marriage - having children.
> 
> Getting conceived by Feb is maybe more a joke. With STBXW's family, they also consistently mention "next time you call us you better have good news!" but in the end it's you + wife's decision.
> 
> But really, with her clock tickling, and you are sill hesitation, no wonder she is strongly irritated with you. Start a real Asian family or divorce her. Stop thinking so much and start acting.



This is called "consummate" a marriage. In the old days (in Europe), if you don't consummate a marriage the marriage can be nullify and made invalid.


----------



## zeezack

Dr House said:


> I agree, this is exactly what you need to do. Plot a time line.
> It may not necessary correlate with paperwork and events, but I have a hunch it is close. You basically had *ONE* good year of happy marriage life - it is probably how much her "stamina" allows her to fake the nicess before she decided she can do it no longer. Also you were saying you were together for 9 years, but if I am not mistaken majority of those 9 years you were basically apart - she was in CHINA and you were in UK correct? You were basically spending the majority of your relationship long distance, and I must say those long distance relationship are like "fantasy" relationship - people are not who they are when they are chatting online. You assume this persona which is sort of like fantasy so when you actually reconnected - you assumed the previous 4 years as real relationship but it really is just not real. You are probably blinded by this, and you keep telling yourself (and us) that is not who she, she is this sweet person before all this happened suddenly.
> 
> I can tell you *NOTHING* can just happen out of thin air. She can't possibly be this sweet person suddenly turn emotionally abusive sociopath. Occam's razor says simplest answer is the correct answer - and she is always been who she is - you just chose to ignore it and was believing this fantasy persona that she had.


Your post is still a little insulting - but none the less I shall answer.

We lived together/met in 2004. Went out as friends, just me and her for a few weeks. Then she initiated a relationship in 2005. We were girlfriend and boyfriend throughout - she left back to China in 2008, came back in 2010. So its not a 'fantasy' relationship over long distance. We had been together in person for a few years before hand - its not like I met her online. 

I've always known her to be difficult at times, and she had always been the one to breakup etc... but I didn't anticipate - she would buy a house without me in 2012 - and her behaviour/attitude towards me and the family would turn so sour. I am not saying I never seen her true self - but this is the major icing on the cake for her true passive aggressive state. As a girlfriend/boyfriend - and as a wife - from 2010-2012 she was the woman I knew. Be difficult is one thing, but being unreasonable is something else - and something new.


----------



## zeezack

Dr House said:


> I am sorry I sound mean before, but my points still stands.
> No matter how much "comic" is now a big business in Hollywood, it is still comic. No comic-book-turn-movie ever win an Oscar or Cannes. In this "post modern" world, people are now holding on to childhood like a badge of honor, and Hollywood is encouraging it because it is big money.
> 
> 
> 1 Corinthians 13:11:
> When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.
> 
> 
> I think comic books have ruined a lot of "boy-man" because of this unrealistic expectation. It keeps you in this childish/teenage mindset instead being an adult.


Not that this is really relevant to my boyfriend/husband skills. For the record - I don't really buy comics. I like films and comic art, but I don't run into comic shops buying back dated issues. At these conventions in particular - I tend to go there to get autographs from people who are likely to be dead in 5-10 years - mainly 80's actors - like the original Star Wars actors, Danny Glover, Malcolm McDowel. I am not running around to these places to pick up "Game of Thrones" or the latest fad tv shows. I think you have a really NARROW mind-set on what is meant for children - is Sin City meant for kids? Is Kick Ass appropriate for a 9 year old? As I said - some people appreciate "High Art" - I don't spend what I would have considered the kid's college fund on canvas stretched Jessica Alba Sin City posters. Besides part of my interest in the conventions is with the long term intention of handing it down to my children/grand children. I never had that for me - and I wanted to do more in that regards of handing them down a valuable collection of autographs from 1980's actors. So excuse me if got a Danny Glover auto or 2, from my perspective and good intentions it was for future generations.




Dr House said:


> The comic book convention thing is just a social construct that typify a geek who never grows up and you fit that typecast perfectly - normally the cultural norm is you get your license and your car, you get a steady 9-5 job, you get married and you have kids.


I think one of the reasons I don't have a car or a license - is I invested my time/money into my education. I have a 1st class degree hons and a masters - and as such I was living on campus and studying for 7 years. I didn't find the need to get the license/car.

When I started working - I started working in Central London - and moved to Central London/rent - to get my career going. I had a perm job - but the hours a web developer works - is never 9-5. In London its more like 9-6:30. I went through 4 perm jobs from 2007-2010 - 3 redundancies and 1 fire (due to insufficient experience). It was at that point I became a full blown contractor - but it screwed me up in obtaining a mortgage for a least another 2 years. That is when I missed the window of opportunity in securing a house with my wife - who jumped the gun and didn't wait for me.

I wanted to get a joint house with my wife - in London - with her accepting the long hour work load I do - to support us both.




Dr House said:


> That's a social expectation - and straying from that expectation is probably the cause of it - she wants to have kids, to want the kids to see their father at regularly hours, to be able to drive the kids to soccer match or dance recital, to spend more time with kids *AS A PARENT* not as a physically grown kid who still into comic books and think it is "high art". That thing about going to bed at 10:30PM also tells me that is what she wants - she is expecting you to have regular job at regular hour - because having a partner with steady income and regular hours is probably something most women expected.


Yes I concur - the social expectation of what the father role is. I argued this with her - saying that by the time I would get back to the house she had bought it would be very late in the day - I expressed to her - I wanted to be a proper hands on dad - who could at least come back from work at 6:30-7 and eat dinner with the family properly. I was trying to sort my career out first - and the living arrangements. If she had waited/or purchased the house in London - then again we wouldn't have needed a car straight away. I understand of course it would be a useful skill/accessory to have - but in my mind - getting my career sorted and the mortgage was more of a priority in 2010-2012. I wanted to up my day rate to 400+ - some Java/J2EE contracts pay up to 700+. Although it seems income may be irregular - I nearly quadrupled my salary from any of my previous junior jobs - and even now I can breach past 350 a day on average for at least 9-10 full months.

I like comics - and to me I am interested in hero mythology - "Joseph Campbell" - but I am SURE there are MANY husbands still married who like Batman, Superman ok, so either way this whole comic degrading thing is irrelevant.

She wanted me to go bed at 10:30 - for health benefits - and that is fine - I concur with that - but there are times I need flexibility but the location of the house did not offer that - not that that put the nail in the coffin for me.




Dr House said:


> All that aside, what the real problem (from your description) is her - she is an abusive and horrible person. She may even be deceptive - feign niceness for the past decade. Either that or you are just too blind and ignore to see the real her. Your language in the thread tells me there is just no way to reconcile with her, as you already made up your mind about her - that her personality is abusive to you, and abrasive to your extended family. Most members in this forum would also agree with me - that if someone is this abusive, don't expect them to change when you have a child - that child is going to be abuse the same way. Would you want your wife to treat your child this way?


This level of abuse - never existed in the way it does now. At times she would give silent treatment - but now its extensive and worse than ever before. Not answering the phone was one thing - but now its constant/ongoing. Not that I am trying to call her now these days. I am not saying she is a horrible person - I know she is a good natured person - but I can not deny - what I feel I have experienced is several forms of strong passive aggressive behaviour traits that really have surfaced and its emotional abuse to me. It is a concern - I had for having children - I wanted time to resettle the relationship and see how things simmered - with her, the family, the relationship, the housing situation/compromise. And no of course I would not want my wife to treat my child that way - and I did confront her on this back in dec - she claimed she wouldn't and that I don't know how she treats children. But yes still in the back of my mind - I thought - other children sure, but your children/your husband/your family...




Dr House said:


> One thing that pops out at me is also how indecisive you are. You continue to procrastinate and put off a decision even when it is apparent to *EVERYONE* on this board that this marriage is over.


I would not say I am indecisive - but these are HARD motions to go through. Here is a woman that I have loved for years - and now she has become rejecting/abandoning/abusive/unstable - exhibiting some very negative attitudes. In some instances I am kind of in shock - not saying I am blinded by some aspects - but some things are very conflicting in her nature and my opinion of her - or of what she said in the past/believes.

I realize I got to look at things subjectively - that I deserve not to be abandoned, that I have self-worth and shouldn't need to be talked down to etc... or controlled in various ways - for the good or bad.



Dr House said:


> As an adult, you need to take responsibility, you need to make the hard decision, you need to have command of your emotion. You *NEED* to make rational decision even when your heart still lingers on and bleeding. YOU KNOW THE MARRIAGE IS OVER. YOU KNOW YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY RECONCILE, and EVERYONE here are basically telling you this, and yet you are still denying it and putting off the divorce.
> 
> 
> Be a man. Grow up. See her for what she is, accept who she is or what she is. See the issues for what they are. Then do it. Move on. There is no point to salvage something unsalvageable. Just move on. You will feel better, and you won't be wasting your precious time on this earth on something that's not worth your time.


This part is a bit insulting - but to answer - I am taking responsibility - rather than going down the pub and sitting at home being unemployed - I am working - earning, saving. Trying to live my life and do what I want.

I am legally married and its been 4 months (yes a long time) - but I am not yet prepared to live like a true single man - make big money decisions etc... book holidays etc... 

I have removed her a second time from my ltd company - as she had in april 2013 - spoken to my accountant - with an interest in being the secretary. I have shunted money out of our only joint account into a single account. Ironic I was the only person who tried to form a joint account - and I was the only one to put money into it...

I have also contacted a solicitor - just for advice for now - provided them a document with property details we have, credit etc... I really just can't believe it all - I bought that flat with her - with the intention we will re-ignite a stronger bond - and instead its been used against me to allow a clean separation.

I find things very painful though - I have a lot of attachment to her - and more care to her wellbeing then I led on. I don't feel things are salvageable at this point, but I am curious to know what her actions will be - if she tries to reconcile under a kind of npd cycle or if she does truly look to find another man. As I said I have to be subjective though - and consider that even if she does try and reconcile which seems really unlikely it may be best for her to divorce and end the relationship for good. I think ultimately the cultural barrier is too much for her - the way she reacts with my family will unlikely improve and I do feel this pattern of abuse will and would linger on - even if we had kids. It is a shock to me all this has occurred - if we had indeed secured a place together in London - we could have started a family and perhaps a bulk of these problems - may never have occurred or become as apparent.


----------



## rubpy3

Just caught up on the last several pages of this thread. Went through them rather quickly and I probably missed some smaller details, but there were couple sentences that stood out and left an impression on me. 



> I have't been sleeping well - especially with no work. I have tried to keep a regular pattern - but I am just not resting well. I've been completed abandoned emotionally and physically - this is effecting me.
> 
> I think she has NPD.
> .
> .
> .
> 
> I've tried to let things go - as if she has died. I am suffering from bereavement, loss of friendship I had with her, the relationship, loss of a future family with her, maybe post traumatic stress from verbal/emotional abuse.
> .
> .
> .
> I will miss her, and I have prayed that she will find herself a good man to replace me.


Man, will you stop worrying about what problem she has, what abuse she caused, stop praying for her, stop thinking about her? If you want I will take you on shot for shot of vodka via TAM forums just to help you forget about her.

It's not worth it to be a drama queen about it, it's probably not going to do any good to keep festering about what harm she did to you, and you can't move forward keep trying to do internet psychoanalysis on her and wondering what disease she has.

You gotta realize they are water under bridge, they are the past! They were a nightmare and you are waking up. You don't keep getting upset about getting fired, you don't get upset about bad dreams, and treat this as a bad dream. 

*Move on and focus on your life now!
*

This is again what I felt like trying to say to you couple pages later.

Dr. House said that you are living in a fantasy relationship the first couple of years and you took offense to that. I'm sorry buddy but I'm gonna say that you lived a fantasy relationship the entire time. Maybe you had a sexual relationship, but it was definitely not a marriage.



> Not that this is really relevant to my boyfriend/husband skills... Besides part of my interest in the conventions is with the long term intention of handing it down to my children/grand children....
> 
> That is when I missed the window of opportunity in securing a house with my wife - who jumped the gun and didn't wait for me.....
> 
> 
> ...I was trying to sort my career out first - and the living arrangements.......
> 
> In some instances I am kind of in shock - not saying I am blinded by some aspects - but some things are very conflicting in her nature and my opinion of her - or of what she said in the past/believes......
> 
> 
> ...but I am not yet prepared to live like a true single man - make big money decisions etc... book holidays etc... ...


Will you believe it? You are still desperately trying to cling onto her. Still not prepared to live like a true single man. You realize how unattractive that sounds even to me? I know that people have different levels of responsibilities and not everyone can just jump up and go, but you have to focus on yourself, on this moment! Stop none stop worrying about what happened in the past, or worry about a person that is not part of your life anymore, or thinking about children that you don't yet have! You realize that you are just using the excuse of kids / grandkids to satisfy your own inner child, no? At least people who buy "high art" are honest about it - they want it. They are not so insecure about their likes that they have to say "oh, it's not for me.. it's for the kids".


----------



## zeezack

Hello Rubpy, the first section was from a few weeks back when things felt very raw. I had gone from a 1st separation to a "reconcilation" phase to 2nd separation again.

- what I mean by living like a single man - is still being legally attached - I need to be careful with money more so - to ensure my debts are cleared, keep myself above water financially - just saying now is not the time to go on a holiday to de-stress. 

Yes - high art - I like it - but I meant more in a post-sentimental way - that I imagined myself as an old man - passing what was important and interesting to me and valuable - to my offspring. If they are interested of course...I didn't say "oh, it's not for me.. it's for the kids" - I admit I like it, but as I collected it - I envisioned giving it/passing it on to my generation - just saying that I think about the future a lot. 

I've always led a fairly straight path and never saw something like this happening. 1st girlfriend, 1st wife. I had plans - had visions of what my children may look like - of what languages they may speak. Its now blown dust into the wind. 

I know I am still a young guy.


----------



## rubpy3

zeezack said:


> ....- I need to be careful with money more so - to ensure my debts are cleared, keep myself above water financially - just saying now is not the time to go on a holiday to de-stress.
> 
> ... - just saying that I think about the future a lot.


I'll use a quote from master yoda...

Ready are you? .... This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. 



> I've always led a fairly straight path and never saw something like this happening. 1st girlfriend, 1st wife. I had plans - had visions of what my children may look like - of what languages they may speak. Its now blown dust into the wind.
> 
> I know I am still a young guy.


If you're a young guy, go act like one. Stop being obsessive, go out there and get after the next skirt.


----------



## Enginerd

Comic books and autographs of shallow actors. You call that a legacy for your children? Ugh! Your wife is tired of living with a boy. You need let her go and work on growing up. She is passive aggressive because she's not that into you but wants to stay in the UK. Would you be able to get a date with someone else? Next her family will come to live with her in her house.


----------



## Starstarfish

rubpy3 said:


> I'll use a quote from master yoda...
> 
> Ready are you? .... This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're a young guy, go act like one. Stop being obsessive, go out there and get after the next skirt.


He needs to get in the right head space first. Nothing is going to crash and burn like being the guy who can't stop talking about the ex and how she just didn't understand love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zeezack

Enginerd said:


> Comic books and autographs of shallow actors. You call that a legacy for your children? Ugh! Your wife is tired of living with a boy. You need let her go and work on growing up.


You focus on this, but you don't consider how much support I tried to give to my wife. Like paying 4k for her dental, taking on the burden of 100% rental rate, carrying a bulk of the groceries to save money on taxi fare etc... I did a LOT for my wife and did my best to be a good husband to her. Would it have been better if I was an alcoholic and spent on booze and gambling instead like my grandpa, who had several children?

I suppose then from the feedback here - if I get a car, and a license on crash course driving lessons in 10 weeks and never go to a convention again - I would be awarded the level of manhood. pls stfu. 

No need to be pedantic. You have different interests, that is fine. It is not the only "legacy" I would have wanted to pass down to my kids. I also wanted to pass down my web agency company along with the multiple properties I will own. 

I may like higher art, but that doesn't mean I am not responsible or grown up. 
I am responsible enough in trying to forge a unification of assets before starting a family; not starting a family under emotionally abusive tactics with no concern for my wife's maternity leave being non-existent. 

Grown up enough to have worked hard to achieve a very good technical education, to have sacrificed a lot of personal time to gain work skills. I also took it upon myself to learn another language.

I am sick of some of the members chaining this "grow up" mentality as if they know me. I guarantee I have been more grown up than some in terms of controlling my emotions and behaviour in the situation I've been in with my wife, far more patient than some would tolerate. You don't know how hard I work. I worked as hard as I have with the intention of building a solid financially secure base.



Enginerd said:


> She is passive aggressive because she's not that into you but wants to stay in the UK. Would you be able to get a date with someone else? Next her family will come to live with her in her house.


Firstly - you don't know how we lived. If you call - not having co-ownership of the maternal home and occupying a corner of the living room - then yes she got tired of that it seems.

I think my wife is passive aggressive in general - and I don't think she really wanted to come back to the UK initially. I don't see her parents coming down to the UK - when they have a house of their own and lives in China.


----------



## zeezack

rubpy3 said:


> I'll use a quote from master yoda...
> 
> Ready are you? .... This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're a young guy, go act like one. Stop being obsessive, go out there and get after the next skirt.


all jokes aside yeah. I really had a vision of what my kids may look like and how they could have been given the benefit and richness of two cultures. On a sub-concious level that meant something to me and gave me security in the relationship. Going to China and getting married there was an exhilarating experience - I am not talking about like Hong Kong - I am talking deep mainland China - where I imagined my children growing up and embracing a diverse culture set. To have lost that is tragic. 

But I have to bare in mind my own reality - that being - it was my wife who disengaged on the relationship, the way the relationship became toxic etc..


----------



## Starstarfish

> I also wanted to pass down my web agency company along with the multiple properties I will own.


Okay, I've just got to ask, something here isn't adding up to me. How can you own a company and multiple properties yet work such an insane schedule and couldn't qualify for a home mortgage? How did you purchase those other properties?

Why didn't you sell those other properties to have more capital towards the "maternal home?" 



> You focus on this, but you don't consider how much support I tried to give to my wife. Like paying 4k for her dental, taking on the burden of 100% rental rate, carrying a bulk of the groceries to save money on taxi fare etc... I did a LOT for my wife and did my best to be a good husband to her. Would it have been better if I was an alcoholic and spent on booze and gambling instead like my grandpa, who had several children?


Again, I'm just kind of confused here how we are talking about owning a company and owning multiple properties and in other posts talking about $20 for bus fare and carrying groceries to save money.


----------



## zeezack

Starstarfish said:


> Okay, I've just got to ask, something here isn't adding up to me. How can you own a company and multiple properties yet work such an insane schedule and couldn't qualify for a home mortgage? How did you purchase those other properties?
> 
> Why didn't you sell those other properties to have more capital towards the "maternal home?"


I was talking about by the time I die. Currently I only have 1 under my belt, but I am now generating enough cashflow to look to acquire more. We had plans of building a retirement home in China.

I wanted just one maternal home - but at the time my company was in earnest and couldn't acquire a mortgage.

Given I couldn't establish a joint mortgage - that is why I bought the flat. I would have looked into property investing - renting out my flat, and now looking into it more that I have split from my wife.



Starstarfish said:


> $20 for bus fare and carrying groceries to save money.


It was important to her to save and be thrifty - for rainy days. I also followed that logic.


----------



## zeezack

Enginerd said:


> Your wife is tired of living with a boy.


Yes I suppose she needs to find a man. I guess I spent too much time trying to build a lucrative career. I think its more of a case my wife needs to a find a person - who she respects personally and culturally. It would be in her best interest to learn how to compromise in a relationship too - opting for a co-owned house to start a family - rather than a sole owned dictatorship


----------



## TiredFamilyGuy

Hi Zeezack. Read the thread. Observations:-

Had three friends marry Chinese women: two English, one British Pakistani. Many of the cultural expectations you mention are familiar to me secondhand. All are now divorced.

It concerns me that it is clearly over, but you are focussing on the past. Disengage and give room for an alternate vision of life to grow. 

Don't replace one angry Chinese woman with another one (one of my friends did that !)

I won't join the "let's beat the guy up because he likes comics" partly because..ahem.. Just went to the London con myself .. But I do find the autograph collection thing kind of weird. 80's Japanese cel animation however... Beautiful. My point being, to each his own. 

Good luck with your life. London is a marvellous place to be. Reflect on your mistakes so as to avoid them, painful as that might be. Move on and
Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rubpy3

> You focus on this, but you don't consider how much support I tried to give to my wife. Like paying 4k for her dental, taking on the burden of 100% rental rate, carrying a bulk of the groceries to save money on taxi fare etc... I did a LOT for my wife and did my best to be a good husband to her. Would it have been better if I was an alcoholic and spent on booze and gambling instead like my grandpa, who had several children?
> 
> I suppose then from the feedback here - if I get a car, and a license on crash course driving lessons in 10 weeks and never go to a convention again - I would be awarded the level of manhood. pls stfu.



You are disciplined, and obviously live a frugal life, and the reason for this is to provide financial security. You are also correct, that having a car, have a license, etc, will not make you any more of a man. You are a good provider for the woman that you loved.

Dear friend, that sounds desperately dreary for a young bloke! The wife is capable of buying her own house. She is also financially secure. The two of you won't starve or live paycheck to paycheck if you bought a car and had more fun driving around a bit. You live at an exciting part of the world, you are within a day or two of drive from France, Spain, Italy, Austria... I dream of living in UK and having long weekends to explorer the rest of Europe.

Have some fun _now_, stop worrying about the future. At least it seems to me that I have more to talk about with girls if I have more experiences. I'd rather have a conversation about the roadtrip to the Alps, than have a conversation about saving money, right?

You realize I'm coming back to this point the 3rd time: you are either mesmerized by the future, or reliving the past, but never in the moment!



> I am responsible enough in trying to forge a unification of assets before starting a family; not starting a family under emotionally abusive tactics with no concern for my wife's maternity leave being non-existent.
> 
> Grown up enough to have worked hard to achieve a very good technical education, to have sacrificed a lot of personal time to gain work skills. I also took it upon myself to learn another language.


You are incredibly disciplined. But not necessarily grown up. Grown up is statehood of embracing, and be comfortable, with your own self, your masculinity, and the world around you. You know.. doing guy stuff. Being disciplined is good, but what are some some other positive traditional, stereotypical guy straits? Adventurous. Courage. Fun-seeking. Physical exercises. Building stuff. Fixing stuff. 

The names that live in history books aren't names of people who planned to do this or that, or regret they hadn't done this or that. They are the names of people who done and accomplished feats. So here it is, once again: stop being bitter about the past relationships, stop living in a bubble of your future, settle down and live life now.


----------



## zeezack

The Solicitors came back with this:


Dear x,

Thank you for forwarding the new client questionnaire duly completed. I note that you have not seen your wife now since February this year and although divorce has been discussed between you, you believe at the moment that she will not immediately commence divorce proceedings, and you say this may be due to her wishing to protect her indefinite leave to remain visa.

It may be open to either of you to issue a Divorce Petition on the sole ground of irretrievable breakdown of the marriage. You would have to base a Petition upon one of five facts namely unreasonable behaviour, adultery, 2 year separation, 5 year separation or desertion. From what you tell me, there may be only one way forward and that would be unreasonable behaviour. Financial aspects of your marriage can also be resolved during the course of the divorce proceedings. It may be possible to reach an agreement in terms of a financial settlement without going to Court but either way, it will be necessary to draw up a Consent Order incorporating the terms of agreement in order for those terms to become legally binding. Such a Consent Order would be lodged at Court and approved by the Court within the divorce proceedings or alternatively by issuing a financial application.

You say you have fairly separate assets, each of you owning a property and only one joint savings account. 

You do not say whether either of you have pension provision but if either of you do have this provision, then the cash equivalent transfer values would need to be obtained when considering a financial settlement. You are both working and earning well and it is most unlikely that spousal maintenance would be a consideration and there would be a clean break settlement between you. I note there are no children of the family.

If you choose to initiate divorce proceedings then I will of course be pleased to assist you and I would then require the documentation specified, namely ID by way of your passport or driving licence together with Counterpart and a recent bank statement or utility bill.

This firm's fixed fee for an uncontested straight forward divorce is £1550 including VAT and Court fees. This does not include any work in relation to financial matters and those matters would be charged at my hourly rate of £200 plus VAT.

If there are any specific questions you would like to ask then please do let me know.

With kind regards.

Yours sincerely,
Solicitor


----------



## SadandAngry

How are you getting on zeezack?


----------



## zeezack

I haven't had any news to report. Until yesterday. She posted off her rings to my parents house, in the original boxes, with the original invoices, no note. I'm devastated.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

zeezack said:


> I haven't had any news to report. Until yesterday. She posted off her rings to my parents house, in the original boxes, with the original invoices, no note. I'm devastated.


Im sorry you are sad, but you are on your way to happiness. You will make a new life for yourself and you will eventually find a love who loves you and cherishes you.


----------



## zeezack

She filed for divorce on April 23rd. The documents arrived to me this morning.


----------



## SadandAngry

Best thing that could've happened to you, even though you might not believe it right away.


----------



## MDean

When Chinese wives get upset, they sometimes yell, "I want a divorce." They don't understand how we as western guys take this as something serious. Also, Chinese women have a sense of entitlement, a trait passed down from their mothers and grandmothers. Chinese husbands, unless they are the physically abusive kinds, tend to live in fear of their wives, and certainly in submission to them. And, most Chinese wives often lose their tempers while their Chinese husbands do not dare talk back. It takes a long time for Chinese wives to realize western men don't want to put up with this. You probably have to just learn to put up with it. For me and my Chinese wife, we have the advantage of both being Christians, so we both know the biblical pattern of love and marriage - this does not guarantee we always follow it perfectly, but at least we have that knowledge. Also, I often pray for my wife, and as a result, I have seen positive change over the years. I am just glad I didn't give up. One other thing, if you haven't already, I recommend you Google "high-context vs. low-context cultures." This will not answer the question of Chinese female dominance, but it may help you clear up some communication issues.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

MDean said:


> When Chinese wives get upset, they sometimes yell, "I want a divorce." They don't understand how we as western guys take this as something serious. Also, Chinese women have a sense of entitlement, a trait passed down from their mothers and grandmothers. Chinese husbands, unless they are the physically abusive kinds, tend to live in fear of their wives, and certainly in submission to them. And, most Chinese wives often lose their tempers while their Chinese husbands do not dare talk back. It takes a long time for Chinese wives to realize western men don't want to put up with this.* You probably have to just learn to put up with it.* For me and my Chinese wife, we have the advantage of both being Christians, so we both know the biblical pattern of love and marriage - this does not guarantee we always follow it perfectly, but at least we have that knowledge. Also, I often pray for my wife, and as a result, I have seen positive change over the years. I am just glad I didn't give up. One other thing, if you haven't already, I recommend you Google "high-context vs. low-context cultures." This will not answer the question of Chinese female dominance, but it may help you clear up some communication issues.


Are you kidding?? NO ONE should EVER learn to "just put up with" being treated like sh!t! Doesnt matter where the jerky person is from! Terrible advice, for ANYONE! 

This is an old thread, I remember reading it..I hope @zeezack has moved on to a happier life.


----------

