# hmmmm Maybe it isn't the bait and switch - interesting read



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...bo7YsQOtV_AqM0MJmoMZiHr5F8eAq_PNbhn0vt9XcY7dI

women disproportionately present with lower sexual desire than their male partners of a year or more, and in the longer term as well. “The complaint has historically been attributed to a lower baseline libido for women, but that explanation conveniently ignores that women regularly start relationships equally as excited for sex


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

> Women, more than men, tend to feel stultified by long-term exclusivity


OK, I don't doubt it. So it naturally follows that: 


> they [women] could benefit from a gray-zone hall pass, too.


Alrighty then.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Bait and switch? Not really, she still bangs him 3 times a week. Hyper-gammy, not sure of the spelling, LOL, is the term. She is ready to take him to the cleaners and move on to the next victim.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

anonmd said:


> Bait and switch? Not really, she still bangs him 3 times a week. Hyper-gammy, not sure of the spelling, LOL, is the term. She is ready to take him to the cleaners and move on to the next victim.


lolololol


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...bo7YsQOtV_AqM0MJmoMZiHr5F8eAq_PNbhn0vt9XcY7dI
> 
> women disproportionately present with lower sexual desire than their male partners of a year or more, and in the longer term as well. “The complaint has historically been attributed to a lower baseline libido for women, but that explanation conveniently ignores that women regularly start relationships equally as excited for sex


I have definitely found this article to be truthful at least in the area that women have high libidos and that they tend to drop off after some time in domesticity, at least towards their current mate.

I also agree that with the drop in desire for their partner, that it isn't a drop in her desire for sex, just a drop in her desire for sex with her mate.

I have some ideas about this. They are just ideas and I'm super interested in sharing about this subject to learn about it.

I'm not afraid to discuss non monogamy even though I don't endorse it. Discussion should be open so learning can take place.

Some of my ideas are certainly offensive but I've seen them give positive results.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Article seems to just reiterate Esther Perel’s work?

Yes, statistically speaking, women stop wanting sex within an LTR while the man does not stop.

Seems that the deck is stacked this way. So knowing about it upfront and working on it together would be a good thing.

Most couples don’t. They just experience the inevitable and do nothing about it either way, then accuse each other of being the broken one.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> lolololol



Can you PLEASE change you pants???? My eyes hurt!!!!!  


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I have definitely found this article to be truthful at least in the area that women have high libidos and that they tend to drop off after some time in domesticity, at least towards their current mate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well that was a long foreplay...Wanna spit out wtf your ideas are then???? 


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I have definitely found this article to be truthful at least in the area that women have high libidos and that they tend to drop off after some time in domesticity, at least towards their current mate.
> 
> I also agree that with the drop in desire for their partner, that it isn't a drop in her desire for sex, just a drop in her desire for sex with her mate.
> 
> ...


lol. Offensive to whom?


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Seems that the deck is stacked this way. So knowing about it upfront and working on it together would be a good thing.
> 
> Most couples don’t. They just experience the inevitable and do nothing about it either way, then accuse each other of being the broken one.


I would agree. And one problem is that the couple may not realize the underlying nature of the dynamic until much later on, and by that time there has been lots of arguments, demands, criticism, etc. which leads to hurt feelings and a lot of resentment. I laugh when newlyweds say they can't imagine not being blissfully happy. Ha! Just wait until that magic fog wears off and see how you feel. It would probably lead to a more healthy relationship for that new couple to realize they are living in temporary blissful times and be prepared to adapt to a time when everything is not so compatible and easy.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Article seems to just reiterate Esther Perel’s work?
> 
> Yes, statistically speaking, women stop wanting sex within an LTR while the man does not stop.
> 
> ...


Seems to me.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> lolololol


When you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Article seems to just reiterate Esther Perel’s work?
> 
> Yes, statistically speaking, women stop wanting sex within an LTR while the man does not stop.
> 
> ...


I've never thought there was much conscious "bait and switch". 

I've never been fond of pretending that men and women's sexuality worked the same way.

Essentially, spontaneous desire in women often turns responsive after being in an LTR.

So, the bolded. Let's acknowledge how the world really works and base our actions on that instead of thinking how the world would work in some more perfect fantasyland.

So, it's not necessarily that the man needs to be more attractive, or he's a bad lover, or that the woman is not having enough orgasms, or that the woman intentionally bait and switched, or that she was only interested in his wallet.

Acknowledge that this happens and, if you care about each other, work on it together.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

My first thought on it is that some people are never really satisfied. Let's say you open your marriage, is that enough? Is sex with a different person, or string of people really enough, forever? Is this just another step in filling a hole inside a person with ever changing potentially ever increasing diversion? (not meaning religion here really, just a sense of contentment in one's self)

It makes me think of Solomon, vanity, all is vanity.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

I thought it was because men in LTRs ....

stop...
Being romantic 
Going to the gym
Practicing personal hygiene 

And instead, start....
Spending all weekend on the couch watching sports 
Drinking more beer
Belching and passing gas


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I've never thought there was much conscious "bait and switch".
> 
> I've never been fond of pretending that men and women's sexuality worked the same way.
> 
> ...


I agree 500%. And those who will acknowledge that it happens are more likely to succeed in working on it together. 

I guess some of the premises of the article were interesting, if not some of the conclusions, since there are soooooo many not having sex threads that seem predicated on a bunch fake info.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Article seems to just reiterate Esther Perel’s work?
> ...


Yes. I don’t think it’s that easy though. I do actually think there is a built in end date to desire for women (for one man). I think it’s biological. The same as a mans biological need to keep spreading the seed, women have a need for variety that presents itself after monogamy (and sometimes before). And that need for variety women have will be something that a lot of men can’t really provide. So it’s built in “easy” for a guy to keep his desire and built in “very difficult” for her to do the same.

This is the part the many couples can’t really navigate. 

But there are some couples who do seem to be able to navigate it and still remain monogamous, with her desire remaining high indefinitely. I was part of a couple like this and I feel like I have a lot of good tips on this. But if both the man and woman don’t participate openly in the ways that would help, it won’t matter.

I’ve also been in a LTR where I’ve experienced this drop in desire for my partner. I know now the difference in why the 2 relationships were different and why my desire remained high in one but not the other. Basically the difference was that my partner who I lost desire for would not work with me on the things I needed (I did communicate them, many times in many ways. It was just not anything he could provide).

Now, if I had not been able to communicate it myself and if I lacked self awareness about what I actually needed, then I’m sure we both would have thought I simply had LD because of kids or whatever.

So un self aware women are not going to necessarily understand this dynamic about themselves. Men obviously understand their own desire (it’s there, what’s the question). For women who had strong desire in the NRE phase and then lost it along the way, many of them don’t know that this is a natural, normal occurrence.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Different cause, Same result?

I didn't finish the article. It stirred up feelings of resentment and sadness. Imagine a woman who will talk about her sexual needs/desires, and she still can't get what she wants. Seemed so hopeless.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I thought it was because men in LTRs ....
> 
> stop...
> Being romantic
> ...


So in a case like yours, I think if a person is truly LD (whether by nature or by restricting ideas that cause lack of openness about sex, and your wife probably has a bit of both), then you doing different things to try to “turn her on” is a little misguided. Granted, there is the fact that she won’t open up as much as you’d like, and the fact that most advice up to this point is the whole “be more domestically supportive”.

But there are men who need the advice to not be a lazy idiot.

And there are men who need the advice to get a life and stop focusing on her.

So those article do help some people.

The thing is that there is this over reaching other statistical fact. It can co mingle with other issues, but it’s going to be there whether other issues are or not.

And like I said, if you are dealing with other issues on top of the statistical issues like your wife, it can be so confusing. Lack of self awareness and awareness of the statistical issue is common.

I think in that case you have to keep going at it from logical and emotional angles. Trying to “turn her on” is what a man thinks the problem is (as in, he thinks something outside of her will arouse her and then she will want sex, as happens frequently for men.) But I think you have realized this and are addressing it the right way now, through honest communication and counseling.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

I think women could genuinely say that they were victims of "bait and switch" in terms of how interested a guy was in them. It is very common for a guy to have a very high level of interest at the beginning with things like spending time together, talking, concern for her well-being, etc. While those things persist in the relationship, the intensity will fade a lot. He will not want to spend endless hours together, talk about whatever, give her surprise gifts, etc. If a woman has the expectation that dating-level interest will persist throughout the relationship, she's probably going to be disappointed and feel like the guy was just faking at the start to get her into bed. The reality is that the same mental state that made her sex drive very high at the start also made his interest level very high. If both partners realize this and strive to ensure that both sex and interest stay vibrant in their relationship, they will end up with a long and healthy relationship.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Now, if I had not been able to communicate it myself and if I lacked self awareness about *what I actually needed*, then I’m sure we both would have thought I simply had LD because of kids or whatever.


I would be fascinated to know more.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Laurentium said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Now, if I had not been able to communicate it myself and if I lacked self awareness about *what I actually needed*, then I’m sure we both would have thought I simply had LD because of kids or whatever.
> ...


Well, self awareness was kind of my point. And if you don’t have that, then you can’t communicate what you actually desire and need. If you aren’t self aware, you may think you need one thing to turn you on, but be totally unaware of why or how that thing turns you on. So if you try to go with that one thing, it may fail miserably if you don’t know what it was you were trying to get out of it. I think with young women, some of them have some exhilarating experience and then think they have to recreate that experience to be turned on, whereas the reason it was exhilarating was because it was NEW and not a recreation of any kind.

This doesn’t mean women don’t want their wonderful go to moves that do regularly work. I’m just saying if someone doesn’t know for themselves why one thing worked at the time and whether it would be good to make it a go to move or not, then the person may just be chasing rabbits down holes. (He he, holes).

What I personally needed probably wasn’t very similar to what other women needed, but I was at least able to communicate it.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> So in a case like yours, I think if a person is truly LD (whether by nature or by restricting ideas that cause lack of openness about sex, and your wife probably has a bit of both), then you doing different things to try to “turn her on” is a little misguided. Granted, there is the fact that she won’t open up as much as you’d like, and the fact that most advice up to this point is the whole “be more domestically supportive”.
> 
> But there are men who need the advice to not be a lazy idiot.
> 
> ...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes. I don’t think it’s that easy though. I do actually think there is a built in end date to desire for women (for one man). I think it’s biological. The same as a mans biological need to keep spreading the seed, women have a need for variety that presents itself after monogamy (and sometimes before). And that need for variety women have will be something that a lot of men can’t really provide. So it’s built in “easy” for a guy to keep his desire and built in “very difficult” for her to do the same.
> 
> This is the part the many couples can’t really navigate.
> 
> ...


I'm sure that there's a mix of situations like yours, where the loss of interest was situational, and others where it just seems to happen independent of what either partner does or doesn't do.

Often, all that's happened is a change from spontaneous desire to responsive and, if it's known that that can happen, there are things to do to make responsive desire work.

It's not a problem that can be 'fixed' (other than by trying to re-establish the NRE environment by destabilizing the relationship). 

Your experience would seem to indicate that your desire would remain strong unless there was a 'problem'.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm sure that there's a mix of situations like yours, where the loss of interest was situational, and others where it just seems to happen independent of what either partner does or doesn't do.
> 
> Often, all that's happened is a change from spontaneous desire to responsive and, if it's known that that can happen, there are things to do to make responsive desire work.
> 
> ...


We've faced this problem more by facing it and playing with it than "fixing" it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Yes. I don’t think it’s that easy though. I do actually think there is a built in end date to desire for women (for one man). I think it’s biological. The same as a mans biological need to keep spreading the seed, women have a need for variety that presents itself after monogamy (and sometimes before). And that need for variety women have will be something that a lot of men can’t really provide. So it’s built in “easy” for a guy to keep his desire and built in “very difficult” for her to do the same.
> ...


The NRE is not established by destabilizing the relationship. I don’t know if you ever read my blog or remember it. But no. Destabilizing is not the answer.

Although actually giving an ultimatum may make someone examine their behavior in order to not lose the marriage, that’s not how to do things well. 

The way to do it well is for both partners to be very self aware, both be able to communicate your needs and desires, and both be able to execute the things that need to happen in order to meet the needs and desires of both. No destabilizing.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

It is in our wiring, in the wiring.
Did I say in our wiring?

Not everyones, of course.

Some women are HD, some men are LD.

On average, men are more HD.

Age, and harmful lifestyle choices can reverse the HD/LD trends.

Yes.





[THM]- The Typist I


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Women's desire drops steadily over 90 months but a man's holds steady. 

Gee I wonder why.

Let's see, a woman is more sexual than a man, no one man could keep up with a completely uninhibited woman.......Hmmmmm


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

red oak said:


> Women's desire drops steadily over 90 months but a man's holds steady.
> 
> Gee I wonder why.
> 
> Let's see, a woman is more sexual than a man, no one man could keep up with a completely uninhibited woman.......Hmmmmm


Well, that’s been my experience. But the one man who could keep up and I had unending desire for was able to excite me as if he was a bunch of different men.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

This bit is news to me:

“It’s not uncommon for women to let their straight partners play in a “monogamy gray zone,” to give guys access to tensional outlets that allow them to cheat without really cheating. “Happy ending” massages, oral sex at bachelor parties, lap dances, escorts at conferences … influenced by ubiquitous pop-cultural cues, many people believe that men need these opportunities for recreational “sorta sex” because “it’s how men are.” It’s how women are, too, it seems.”

I don’t know who gets these ‘gray zone passes’ but I don’t think these are that common. Nor do I think many guys ‘need’ them. I certainly never needed them.

Anyway, re article: so women get bored with same old same old and allegedly could benefit from variety? I instinctively felt this might be the case and tried to ‘pre-empt’ it by gauging and suggesting people wife could ‘have fun’ with. The only problem is she is really dead-set against it. What do I do?

I did see a drop off in my wife’s sex drive only after births, for about 3-6 months. It’s now pretty much back to ‘normal’ and her drive is about the same as mine, pretty high (every 2 days or so), I don’t notice any difference or decline. If anything it increased since I stopped being so **** at sex. We generally keep things very varied but if she gets bored with me, then all I can do is find her someone she would rather ****, but like I said, the thought of it makes her want to puke apparently so I have no idea how to achieve it. Any tips how to follow the advice of the article and make my wife have lots of varied sex with other people? 


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Not going to matter when the robots and IA become life like enough. No one will be getting married anymore anyway.


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

sokillme said:


> Not going to matter when the robots and IA become life like enough. No one will be getting married anymore anyway.


Robots and Iowa? Porn and Corn?

<<mutters bread and circuses>>


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

red oak said:


> Women's desire drops steadily over 90 months but a man's holds steady.
> 
> Gee I wonder why.
> 
> Let's see, a woman is more sexual than a man, no one man could keep up with a completely uninhibited woman.......Hmmmmm


I've been trying to corral my thoughts on this because I posted half asleep earlier but Mrs. Conan and I went at it like rabbits for years until she had a bump in the road with bitter church ladies which we overcame and she still really likes sex with me every day if she can get it.

So what is her difference? I'm trying to nail down something that is applicable.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> The NRE is not established by destabilizing the relationship. I don’t know if you ever read my blog or remember it. But no. Destabilizing is not the answer.
> 
> Although actually giving an ultimatum may make someone examine their behavior in order to not lose the marriage, that’s not how to do things well.
> 
> The way to do it well is for both partners to be very self aware, both be able to communicate your needs and desires, and both be able to execute the things that need to happen in order to meet the needs and desires of both. No destabilizing.


You are right that destabilizing is not the answer...or rather destabilizing alone is not the answer.

Destabilizing AND being willing to walk are absolutely crucial...after attempts at less combative forms of resolving the issue have been given honest effort. 

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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> You are right that destabilizing is not the answer...or rather destabilizing alone is not the answer.
> 
> Destabilizing AND being willing to walk are absolutely crucial...after attempts at less combative forms of resolving the issue have been given honest effort.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I wouldn’t call that destabilizing, but semantics.

To me, destabilizing is a deliberate thing to only destabilize. What you described is a boundary and an ultimatum. Yes, if you are not bluffing an ultimatum might work. Or it might not but then you’d be free.

Buddy seemed to say that destabilizing causes NRE. That’s not the case. What causes NRE is NRE. 

NRE can be obtained and sustained in a not new monogamous relationship.

But I think you know/meant that, too.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> I've been trying to corral my thoughts on this because I posted half asleep earlier but Mrs. Conan and I went at it like rabbits for years until she had a bump in the road with bitter church ladies which we overcame and she still really likes sex with me every day if she can get it.
> 
> So what is her difference? I'm trying to nail down something that is applicable.


Just generalizing. It may not be so much her as it is you.

From your posts you seem to be cut from a different lot of fabric.

My observations over the years, a man being a husband, in the full sense of the original definition, can have some to do with it if the woman is solid emotionally. 

And some women just have too much inner strength to be kept under the thumb of society. Or their husband lends them the strength. 

Lots of correlating factors to consider. 
I like discussing successes and human behavior but have a tendency to get too psychologically technical so generally avoid them.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> You are right that destabilizing is not the answer...or rather destabilizing alone is not the answer.
> 
> Destabilizing AND being willing to walk are absolutely crucial...after attempts at less combative forms of resolving the issue have been given honest effort.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Destabilizing has consequences and becomes tiresome in the case where a man has to constantly be willing to leave or keep the threat over one's head. 
Sounds like the early mormons. 

My xw would get extremely sexual, it wasn't faked either, as long as I was wanting a separation or divorce but once she figured it was past it would eventually go back to the same old same old. 15 years of that was exhausting.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

anonmd said:


> Bait and switch? Not really, she still bangs him 3 times a week. Hyper-gammy, not sure of the spelling, LOL, is the term. She is ready to take him to the cleaners and move on to the next *victim*.


I've been trying to abstain from this conversation.

I have to say this. 

Victimization can create victimizers. 

I'm not saying her husband victimized her. Society/culture has. Who are the main attackers of a sexual woman if not other women? Study after study has shown women are by far the biggest shamers/judgers of sexual women followed by insecure men.

Anyone remember the series Harper Valley PTA? My step dad loved that show because of how it so closely represented society. 

So who is the true victim? Her? Him? Or are they both being pushed to victimize the other by a repressive divisionist culture which makes each individual fear a true understanding of one another?


Then there is the social undercurrent of deserving different, better, more....creating a sense of loss or missing out.

I find the studies on statistics of happiness, and rise of anti-depressant use from now back to 70's very telling. 

Stepping back out a while.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NRE and hyperbonding (when one fears the loss of a partner) can be very similar in practice.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

AandM said:


> Robots and Iowa? Porn and Corn?
> 
> <<mutters bread and circuses>>


It is entirely unfair to be faced by a post like this before coffee. But it did make me laugh.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

red oak said:


> Destabilizing has consequences and becomes tiresome in the case where a man has to constantly be willing to leave or keep the threat over one's head.
> 
> Sounds like the early mormons.
> 
> ...


You are confusing destabilizing with the threat of divorce. 

They are two distinct things, and are not necessarily done at the same time... although they can be. 

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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

For clarity, destabilizing is more like this:

"Wife/husband, you have made it abundantly clear that I am not a priority for you. I totally understand, and I would not want you to do something that you do not want to do...nor would I expect you to want me to do something that I don't want to do."

After that conversation...

No more listening to her vent, rubbing her feet, filling her drinks...all acts of service (and all needs for that matter) officially suspended.

The canned response for any request becomes, "I don't feel like it."

At the same time, be out of the house more. Go pursue the things that matter to you, whether it is spending time with your kids, a hobby you're passionate about, etc.

The entire intent is to make your spouse's priority somewhere south of zero on a scale of 1 to 10.

Will it always work? Nope. Nothing ever does work 100% of the time.

Can it work? Absolutely. My marriage is as good or better than it ever was, and I had to do this for the better part of a year (to varying degrees).







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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> For clarity, destabilizing is more like this:
> 
> "Wife/husband, you have made it abundantly clear that I am not a priority for you. I totally understand, and I would not want you to do something that you do not want to do...nor would I expect you to want me to do something that I don't want to do."
> 
> ...


That seems like a potentially viable solution to some problems. But it does not seem very applicable to this situation to me. What does that do to address the underlying issue?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> That seems like a potentially viable solution to some problems. But it does not seem very applicable to this situation to me. What does that do to address the underlying issue?


It isn't a solution to addressing the underlying issue.

It is a solution when one partner refuses to accept to even begin to address the underlying issue.

"When you are ready to talk about how both of us can work to restore our relationship again, I am ready to listen."

Until such time, destabilization continues.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> It isn't a solution to addressing the underlying issue.
> 
> It is a solution when one partner refuses to accept to even begin to address the underlying issue.
> 
> ...



Did you by any chance play an instrumental role in the last Cold War?  (Joking)


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

LOL...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> For clarity, destabilizing is more like this:
> 
> "Wife/husband, you have made it abundantly clear that I am not a priority for you. I totally understand, and I would not want you to do something that you do not want to do...nor would I expect you to want me to do something that I don't want to do."
> 
> ...


Have you and she talked about this now that it is in the past? As in, does she now understand why you destabilized things? Does she see her part in leading up to it? Have you both apologized to each other for letting it get to that place?

Sounds like you are doing so well, just thought I’d ask some questions now that things have been better for a bit.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> You are confusing destabilizing with the threat of divorce.
> 
> They are two distinct things, and are not necessarily done at the same time... although they can be.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I understand your perspective. What you call destabilizing I call setting boundaries. 

There is an actual term for what you're calling destabilizing which fails to came to mind. It's part of a relationship power struggle.
I went through it with my X. Even after 3-4 months she never noticed I hadn't touched, hugged, kissed in anyway, flirted, made any sexual advance, discussed anything with her........
There were no threats of divorce by me. There was intent. 
Therefore to me I destabilized our marriage and her percieved princess attitude and ownership of me.

On an aside; there is a theme, or do they call it meme now, in society if a man helps with dishes, household cleaning etc a woman will have more sexual desire for her husband. Yet women who reported higher sexual desire for their husband's also reported husbands doing less household chores. Go figure. 
The women who reported more household participation reported less desire for husband.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

red oak said:


> farsidejunky said:
> 
> 
> > You are confusing destabilizing with the threat of divorce.
> ...


There is a lot wrong with the studies you are speaking of. Namely, that most of them are not scientific studies, they are self reported online surveys.

Reason I’m pointing that out is because other than for certain individuals who have a lazy spouse and no other issues, we don’t know that the surveys point to any causation. 

In most cases, when a spouse does not carry their own weight, much more is wrong in the relationship also and the lazy spouse usually is more than just lazy.

But when the only options multiple choice surveys are asking about household chores and sex and feelings, then your answers about everything else going on in the relationship get squeezed down into “household chores and how they do and don’t affect sex drive”.

Another point I would throw in is that my ex h is a very clean and organized guy. If I had been a lazy spouse and ignored basic household chores, he definitely would not have found me sexy.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> There is a lot wrong with the studies you are speaking of. Namely, that most of them are not scientific studies, they are self reported online surveys.
> 
> Reason I’m pointing that out is because other than for certain individuals who have a lazy spouse and no other issues, we don’t know that the surveys point to any causation.
> 
> ...


Yes. The goal of getting more and/or better sex is often put in a box as if the context of the entire relationship is irrelevant.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > There is a lot wrong with the studies you are speaking of. Namely, that most of them are not scientific studies, they are self reported online surveys.
> ...


 That is because many of them don't care about the relationship. They only care about the 6. Which, ironically, is probably why they are not having the sex lol


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> That is because many of them don't care about the relationship. They only care about the 6. Which, ironically, is probably why they are not having the sex lol


Nah. It's because they are inadequate with housework. 
the 6!


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

How was the sex honey?

I’d give it a 6. Next time mow the lawn first. Now that’s hot!


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> That seems like a potentially viable solution to some problems. But it does not seem very applicable to this situation to me. What does that do to address the underlying issue?


It doesn't. We've been thru this before.

The person who cares the least about the relationship gets to drive. 

Destabilizing and such may work in a fairly limited number of cases, but if the threat of a split is irrelevant (ie the indifferent partner gets to benefit or stay even) it doesn't work.

One may be able to "destabilize" a doe eyed partner for a bit but it said doe gets to keep the house and kids or is a decades long veteran of corporate crap and isn't easily frazzled, it's a waste of time.



Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> There is a lot wrong with the studies you are speaking of. Namely, that most of them are not scientific studies, they are self reported online surveys.
> 
> Reason I’m pointing that out is because other than for certain individuals who have a lazy spouse and no other issues, we don’t know that the surveys point to any causation.
> 
> ...


Refering to our society throwing so much junk, half truths and outright fallacies to foment division and debate annoys me, and one reason I attempt to abstain from conversations such as this.

I wasn't referring to the online multiple choice questionnaires.
Don't know where the ideas come from that _all_ the studies reported are results of online multiple choice surveys. 

Yes there were some multiple choice questions however first link below shows there are also more detailed answers required. 
wave 1 was in 87-88 and currently is wave 3.

https://www.ssc.wisc.edu/nsfh/mod2/Marriagecohabdating2.txt

Here's link for downloads of wave 2 results 92-94. 
https://www.icpsr.umich.edu/icpsrweb/ICPSR/studies/6906#
If you sign up to download be prepared for a large folder.
From the 92-94 wave 2 analysis. 



> "If the activity is coded as masculine or feminine and it expresses ideas about what makes the opposite sex interesting, attractive, alluring mysterious...that seems to be related to sexual activity and possibly sexual desire," Brines says.
> 
> She added that for couples *where everything is equal and they share same interests and close friendships, they too have less sex on average.*
> 
> "*There's a sibling-like tonality to (equal) relationships," she said. "They're really good best friends, but the sexual charge is missing from the relationship*."


The article which started this conversation shows the validity of the highlighted above.

Backing out again.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> How was the sex honey?
> 
> I’d give it a 6. Next time mow the lawn first. Now that’s hot!


No tool belt. Not hot.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > How was the sex honey?
> ...


Shirtless and tan and gleaming in the sun with manly shorts on only. Thick wrists pushing the mower, back muscles tight like when ready to pounce. Mmmm

Tool belts are good too!


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Shirtless and tan and gleaming in the sun with manly shorts on only. Thick wrists pushing the mower, back muscles tight like when ready to pounce. Mmmm
> 
> Tool belts are good too!


That's what apartment maintenance is there for 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Shirtless and tan and gleaming in the sun with manly shorts on only. Thick wrists pushing the mower, back muscles tight like when ready to pounce. Mmmm
> ...


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Shirtless and tan and gleaming in the sun with manly shorts on only. Thick wrists pushing the mower, back muscles tight like when ready to pounce. Mmmm
> 
> Tool belts are good too!


Can't get with grass stuck to his sweaty back. Sweaty back = good. Sweaty back + sticky grass <> good.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Shirtless and tan and gleaming in the sun with manly shorts on only. Thick wrists pushing the mower, back muscles tight like when ready to pounce. Mmmm
> ...


Because you are watching the real version not the porn version. Lolz


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

I am confused, what is the 6?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

anonmd said:


> I am confused, what is the 6?


POI frequently uses voice to text. It's sex. I think it is funny and mention it from time to time.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> That is because many of them don't care about the relationship. They only care about the 6. Which, ironically, is probably why they are not having the sex lol


The 6 is very important and cannot be emphasized enough.

I'm only sorry for those who don't know what the 6 is.

So I am feeling sorry for myself....:grin2:


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> The 6 is very important and cannot be emphasized enough.
> 
> I'm only sorry for those who don't know what the 6 is.
> 
> So I am feeling sorry for myself....:grin2:


https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/the-6/


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/the-6/


Smart ass!:laugh:


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> POI frequently uses voice to text. It's sex. I think it is funny and mention it from time to time.


You've ruined it for me. I always imagined she was just too embarrassed to type out the word "sex". I know that's not the case, but I'm easily amused.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

CharlieParker said:


> You've ruined it for me. I always imagined she was just too embarrassed to type out the word "sex". I know that's not the case, but I'm easily amused.


Daaaaw. That's cute!


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> The 6 is very important and cannot be emphasized enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Not as important as 69 though. That’s da bomb!!!!  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Have you and she talked about this now that it is in the past? As in, does she now understand why you destabilized things? Does she see her part in leading up to it? Have you both apologized to each other for letting it get to that place?
> 
> Sounds like you are doing so well, just thought I’d ask some questions now that things have been better for a bit.


We have not, but in fairness, I probably over communicated what I was doing. She knew what was happening, even if it pissed her off.

Have we apologized to each other? Yes, in a way, over the entire state of our relationship, both alone and during MC.

As for her awareness, it is something she would rather not revisit. She struggles with shame and the conversation will inevitably turn ugly... For her, it has to "remain in the past" or she will feel like it is somehow being used against her. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I’ve also been in a LTR where I’ve experienced this drop in desire for my partner. I know now the difference in why the 2 relationships were different and why my desire remained high in one but not the other. Basically the difference was that my partner who I lost desire for would not work with me on the things I needed (I did communicate them, many times in many ways. It was just not anything he could provide).


So your assertion is that women lose their sexual desire for men who don't meet their emotional needs? Basically, the whole Dr. Harley thing? Or did I misunderstand?


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

personofinterest said:


> That is because many of them don't care about the relationship. They only care about the 6. Which, ironically, is probably why they are not having the sex lol


I understand that BayMax, being inflatable, can really, ahem, "get there", if you know what I mean.


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that long-term monogomy is an unreachable utopia in all but a tiny fraction of couples. Especially after kids when men naturally go deep-beta and women turn off sexually (for totally justified reasons). Most never recover. And most end in tears soon after. 

Sure, some people stay monogomously together for over a decade, but increasingly few seem happy about it (women stay for the security and men stay to avoid divorce rape ... and dutifully for the kids, of course). 

While I don't go full polyamoury and dread that future, women seem just wired for serial monogomy (6 months to 3 years) and men are more geared to polyamoury. It's evolutionary, deep in our ancient brain structures. We can dress it up how we want, and try to play the Disney/Hollywood romantic ideal, but it's a fools errand.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> It's sex. I think it is funny and mention it from time to time.


Hence the military expression, "he's on my 6" :laugh:


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Laurentium said:


> Hence the military expression, "he's on my 6" :laugh:


He's in Toronto?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

delupt said:


> I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that long-term monogomy is an unreachable *utopia *in all but a tiny fraction of couples.


I think everything we need to know we should have learned in preschool. When I taught preschool, we used to sing a song while walking in the woods. We're going on a bear hunt, gonna catch a big one! OH NO, a <insert obstacle here>! Can't go over it, gotta go through it! 

I think people think once they are married, the race is over and won. They get complacent as if going to work and having sex is the thing. Or making the home and NOT having sex is the thing. And all the other emotional, physical and practical stuff is just noise. It's not. It's the obstacle in the bear hunt. Can't go over it. Gotta go through it.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

InMyPrime said:


> NRE and hyperbonding (when one fears the loss of a partner) can be very similar in practice.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hence a deeper appreciation of each other, usually by folks a little older who have been through true life/death health issue with an immediate family member.

Not always by older folks though. Young, sometimes very young have gone through life threatening/deaths in family circumstances that create responses in their life stages.

I've tried to stay a bit out of this because I see all sides of this, personal experience in most described circumstances. 

A best comment is perhaps multiple parts;


The same solutions don't work everytime for the same couple.​
The same solutions that work at different times for the same couple aren't guaranteed to work at anytime for some couples.​
There are some couples where there will never be any solutions that work.​
Someone made a comment above, I forget who 🙄 that it's a problem to keep playing with, not one that has a fix, then problem gone forever. 

Me, I've always equated my relationships to playing or even just truly listening to good music.


The same song, although a favorite, doesn't suit all occasions.​
Or, I may want to learn a song, but the cost in time and effort to learn it well enough to play and enjoy may overwhelm my level of desire to play that song. 
At that time. 
But times change, future me may want to take the time/effort.​
And I'm aware of that, and I can live with that approach.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

> Marta Meana of the University of Nevada at Las Vegas spelled it out simply in an interview with me at the annual Society for Sex Therapy and Research conference in 2017. “Long-term relationships are tough on desire, and particularly on female desire,” she said. I was startled by her assertion, which contradicted just about everything I’d internalized over the years about who and how women are sexually. Somehow I, along with nearly everyone else I knew, was stuck on the idea that women are in it for the cuddles as much as the orgasms, and—besides—actually require emotional connection and familiarity to thrive sexually, whereas men chafe against the strictures of monogamy.


When it comes to sex I've never thought women are in it for the cuddles, or the flowers or the sweet nothings, or even need a special emotional connection to want lots of sex with whomever. I don't even think women or men are inherently monogamous either. At the very least most people seem to be serial monogamists, which isn't really being monogamous at all.

I've also always thought women are mostly, wanton and sexually lustful beings that frequently crave sex.

Likewise none of the article and others like it are a surprise, since over time I also think lots of women (probably most), get bored sexually and or bored of who they are with sexually. Especially when a level of familiarity and non-sexual routine sets in.

That said my wife and I have just celebrated our 20th wedding anniversary, and have been together for almost 23 yers of sharing oodles of frequent, varied and enthusiastic sex throughout our relationship.

I'm not exactly sure why to date it has worked for us, in ways it hasn't for others.

Except that a lot of what we do, and how we see things. Is often in stark contrast from what many recommend, as the best practices to have a great marital relationship.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I wouldn’t call that destabilizing, but semantics.
> 
> To me, destabilizing is a deliberate thing to only destabilize. What you described is a boundary and an ultimatum. Yes, if you are not bluffing an ultimatum might work. Or it might not but then you’d be free.
> 
> ...


I threw that in as a side comment (which I need to stop doing because it then takes the focus off my main point).

In some cases, it seems like a woman's NRE comes from the perceived need to "lock down" a partner. Once he's committed, the need to do this is lessened and, as a result, NRE disappears and it's back to the baseline sex drive. I don't think this is usually done consciously.

If that's the case one way to bring it back would to be to make the woman feel less secure in her relationship. I've heard of, seen, that work occasionally. For a while. I don't recommend it, don't think it will work in the long term, can endanger the relationship and I, personally, wouldn't do it.

There was a poster here a long time ago (Nueklas?) who figured out that he could revive his wife's interest in sex by constantly "gaming her". I worked, for a while. Essentially, instead of doing what he preferred he had to do everything with a view to how it would affect his wife's sexual responsiveness. Eventually he came back and having to go to all that effort didn't turn out to be worth it.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn’t call that destabilizing, but semantics.
> ...


What you are describing are game techniques, not NRE.

Hint: if you feel you have to try to “make” your partner feel NRE, you don’t understand what it is.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

BioFury said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > I’ve also been in a LTR where I’ve experienced this drop in desire for my partner. I know now the difference in why the 2 relationships were different and why my desire remained high in one but not the other. Basically the difference was that my partner who I lost desire for would not work with me on the things I needed (I did communicate them, many times in many ways. It was just not anything he could provide).
> ...


Though I do like a lot of the Marriage Builders concepts and feel emotional needs are something people need to tend to in marriage, the lover I was describing was not able to fulfill my sexual needs.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> What you are describing are game techniques, not NRE.
> 
> Hint: if you feel you have to try to “make” your partner feel NRE, you don’t understand what it is.


Mostly agree but I call mostly BS as well .


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Another point I would throw in is that my ex h is a very clean and organized guy. If I had been a lazy spouse and ignored basic household chores, he definitely would not have found me sexy.


I'm a very clean and organized guy.

My wife is not a very clean and organized gal. 

My wife leaves her underwear on the floor.

I still find her sexy


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Another point I would throw in is that my ex h is a very clean and organized guy. If I had been a lazy spouse and ignored basic household chores, he definitely would not have found me sexy.
> ...


You can make what you want of what I said.

For my ex, if I had been a slob (which is not the same as simply leaving underwear on the floor), he would not have partnered with me because he cannot live confortably and feel sexual in a pig pen. Would I still have looked sexy to his eyes if I was a slob? Yes.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Though I do like a lot of the Marriage Builders concepts and feel emotional needs are something people need to tend to in marriage, the lover I was describing was not able to fulfill my sexual needs.


Alrighty. Makes sense. Self-preservation in some cases would naturally cause us to stop desiring people that refuse to satisfy us. 

But I didn't see anything remotely resembling a consensus in this thread. Obviously, the reasons a woman would lose sexual interest in her partner varies, but surely there are a few central catalysts.

Do you ladies think it's simply a product of not "doing what you did at the beginning of the relationship, and there won't be an end" type thing? In that husbands stop being considerate, stop taking care of their appearance as well as they did while dating, and just generally stop trying to woo her?


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> What you are describing are game techniques, not NRE.
> 
> Hint: if you feel you have to try to “make” your partner feel NRE, you don’t understand what it is.


I think the need to "close the deal" is a significant part of what looks like NRE in many women.

Obviously, any specific technique used to try and recreate this "artificially" would be a "game". I would imagine that doing this might work in the short term, but not in the long term.

I'm not sure how one would recapture NRE.

My first wife's parents spent her childhood sleeping in different places in the family room. After the kids left the house, it was "game on".

My personally experience with my wife of 30 years is that the sex just gets better and better gradually over time, so I have nothing to offer.

The best solution would be to just never let the NRE go away (which seems to be what you managed to do), but I'm guessing that you're not one of the women the article is talking about for whom libido naturally drops over time in an LTR (assuming there are no significant problems).


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> You can make what you want of what I said.
> 
> For my ex, if I had been a slob (which is not the same as simply leaving underwear on the floor), he would not have partnered with me because he cannot live confortably and feel sexual in a pig pen. Would I still have looked sexy to his eyes if I was a slob? Yes.


I was just adding my personal anecdote.

Not very often I see guys get to mention their wife leaving underwear on the floor. Usually, I just pick it up and put it in the hamper. But, I try to do it when she's not around so she doesn't feel guilty.

I knew what I was getting into. When I met her, her car's back seat was a disaster.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > What you are describing are game techniques, not NRE.
> ...


You still are not describing NRE. Sorry!

ETA: NRE and limerance are about the same thing. 

When you are feeling limerance, things like “locking each other down” are not on your radar. In fact, you are so lost in the moment that you don’t really even think about the future (other than “how soon in the immediate future will I get to be with him/her again?!)

The reason limerance type energy feels so good is precisely because it is free from those heavier concepts. It’s all about the sparkles and tingles and the heights you can reach when you are in that state.

If one is in limerance and the other isn’t, the one who is will just feel lost and hollow. 

When both are in limerance, both are waking around on cloud 9 all the time and both look as if they just came from a spa.

It’s a feeling that comes upon you. It is not something someone else does TO you. 

Anything from the area of “how can I make them feel....” means you aren’t talking about limerance. You could still be talking about love or respect or other good things in marriage.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OK, little late here, wtf is NRE? Quick search came up with Non Recurring Engineering, which if I am being honest, is something I have specifically avoided in my marriage (maybe that is the cause of all my problems lol)


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> OK, little late here, wtf is NRE? Quick search came up with* Non Recurring Engineering*, which if I am being honest, is something I have specifically avoided in my marriage (maybe that is the cause of all my problems lol)


I love you. 

New relationship energy.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is a sincere observation, not a value judgement.

IME as partners age, the AVG women retains a higher level of adventurousness and spontaneity (and those are related, but very different) than the man. Thing is - routine - rarely depresses the AVG male sex drive, but routine isn’t super kind to the AVG female desire. 

That is overlaid on top of an overall relationship dynamic that either helps or hurts. Being playful and agreeable to working with responsive desire sure doesn’t hurt. 

And just as adventurousness and spontaneity overlap, excitement and anxiety overlap. The synthetic creation of anxiety is physiologically hurtful to a partner. It isn’t sustainable because as soon as they figure out what you are doing, you get thrown in the abuser bucket. 

If I’m doing something FOR me, that is wildly different than doing it TO you. 




NobodySpecial said:


> I think everything we need to know we should have learned in preschool. When I taught preschool, we used to sing a song while walking in the woods. We're going on a bear hunt, gonna catch a big one! OH NO, a <insert obstacle here>! Can't go over it, gotta go through it!
> 
> I think people think once they are married, the race is over and won. They get complacent as if going to work and having sex is the thing. Or making the home and NOT having sex is the thing. And all the other emotional, physical and practical stuff is just noise. It's not. It's the obstacle in the bear hunt. Can't go over it. Gotta go through it.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I love you.
> 
> New relationship energy.


Haha

Re reading all the posts make a little more sense with New relationship energy


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

BioFury said:


> Do you ladies think it's simply a product of not "doing what you did at the beginning of the relationship, and there won't be an end" type thing? In that husbands stop being considerate, stop taking care of their appearance as well as they did while dating, and just generally stop trying to woo her?


I don't think the idea behind the article was to have yet another list of things husbands fail to do to make their wives want to have sex with them.

It was that for some women, their libido declines over time in an LTR irregardless if what their husband may or may not have done. I've read plenty of stories from women who claim that their husband is attentive, handsome & sexy yet they don't want to have sex with him (and wish they did). Some have left their husbands, met someone else, had lots of hot sex and then find the cycle repeating.

Surely some women lose attraction to their husbands due to the husband's failures (and all the possible ways that it's the guy's fault that his wife doesn't want to have sex with him have been discussed in depth on TAM). But this is something else.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

BioFury said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Though I do like a lot of the Marriage Builders concepts and feel emotional needs are something people need to tend to in marriage, the lover I was describing was not able to fulfill my sexual needs.
> ...


If we aren’t talking about couples with other issues and just talking about the statistical fact that women cool down toward one man over time but men do not, then I think it’s possibly biological.

I think nature perhaps doesn’t see the need to keep hanging around each other after the 3-4 years it takes to make a baby and get it old enough to most likely survive. 

The fact that the male would be happy to keep making deposits is irrelevant apparently, and the fact that the female no longer has interest in him is unavoidable.

I do think that all of this can be overcome. The same way that men can overcome their instincts to spread seed. But if you are ignorant about the fact that it happens most likely you won’t overcome it.

Some couples naturally figure this out and feel a light, sparkly, limerance throughout their relationship. If you ask them how they are doing it, the answers will be super lame. But that’s because it’s not what they are doing in action that is making the limerance. It’s what they are doing within themselves that allows or doesn’t allow the limerance to be felt. 

Some couples still have great sex ongoing, but don’t feel the limerance. It’s not a necessary component for simply having great sex.


----------



## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I don't think the idea behind the article was to have yet another list of things husbands fail to do to make their wives want to have sex with them.
> 
> It was that for some women, their libido declines over time in an LTR irregardless if what their husband may or may not have done. I've read plenty of stories from women who claim that their husband is attentive, handsome & sexy yet they don't want to have sex with him (and wish they did). Some have left their husbands, met someone else, had lots of hot sex and then find the cycle repeating.
> 
> Surely some women lose attraction to their husbands due to the husband's failures (and all the possible ways that it's the guy's fault that his wife doesn't want to have sex with him have been discussed in depth on TAM). But this is something else.


I don't think that makes any logical sense. Some women can be terrible authorities on explaining _why _they think something, or why they feel something. Merely because the women in your example don't know why they lack a desire to have sex with their husband, doesn't mean there isn't a reasonable explanation - which isn't, "I'm just tired of having sex with such a funny, caring, and sexy man".

If the woman wanted to have sex with the guy 20 years ago, and nothing has changed, then she will continue to want sex with him. Her lack of desire, is in itself, proof that the equation has been altered.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

BioFury said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think the idea behind the article was to have yet another list of things husbands fail to do to make their wives want to have sex with them.
> ...


It may not make sense and we may not know the reasons “why”, but it is statistically true.

We can speculate that statistically, men get lazy in the relationship and that’s “why”. But that’s just a guess and there’s no correlation pointing to this.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

BioFury said:


> If the woman wanted to have sex with the guy 20 years ago, and nothing has changed, then she will continue to want sex with him. Her lack of desire, is in itself, proof that the equation has been altered.


I think working on the assumption that the above is true has led to a lot of men (and women) looking for answers that aren't there.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I think working on the assumption that the above is true has led to a lot of men (and women) looking for answers that aren't there.


Agreed, and I think you can see where the whole Happy Wife Happy Life concept would just come crumbling down.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> > I think working on the assumption that the above is true has led to a lot of men (and women) looking for answers that aren't there.
> ...


Well, or it could be switched up a bit so guys don’t misunderstand.

Happy wife, happy husband, happy endings....as long as both feel limerance. 

If both can’t feel ongoing limerance (typical), then there are ways to keep her interested. Both will need to be aware that this will occur and not blame each other for it. Both will have to do their part.

So that covers the average statistical couple.

But couples who have other issues, will still have those issues and they will not be able to feel limerance at all as long as the issues are still ongoing.

So it’s not going to cure any sex life that has a bunch of unsolved issues. Lazy husbands, nagging wives, alcoholics, cheaters, etc. and so on. Those things still exist and will always exist.


----------



## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Some couples naturally figure this out and feel a light, sparkly, limerance throughout their relationship. If you ask them how they are doing it, the answers will be super lame. But that’s because it’s not what they are doing in action that is making the limerance. It’s what they are doing within themselves that allows or doesn’t allow the limerance to be felt.


I didn't follow that last bit. What are you saying they're doing within themselves to keep the flame alive?



Faithful Wife said:


> It may not make sense and we may not know the reasons “why”, but it is statistically true.
> 
> We can speculate that statistically, men get lazy in the relationship and that’s “why”. But that’s just a guess and there’s no correlation pointing to this.


What statistics are these that everyone keeps referring to?



Buddy400 said:


> I think working on the assumption that the above is true has led to a lot of men (and women) looking for answers that aren't there.


It isn't an assumption. If the beginning of a relationship is represented by the equation x + y = 4, the "product" of that relationship will always to be 4, unless the value of x or y fluctuates.

X and Y represent people, so they will undoubtedly change over the years. But the fact that the sum of the equation is not what it was at the beginning, is proof that the variables have changed. Merely because we can't point our finger at the particular aspect of the variable responsible for an unfavorable product, doesn't mean it isn't there. Or otherwise said, just because we don't know the answer, doesn't mean there isn't one.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

@BioFury

There are several duplicated studies that show many women lose their desire for one man over time, while most men don’t lose their desire for the one woman.

We don’t know why. We can speculate.

I personally don’t think it’s because every one of those men did not keep wooing his wife. 

I do think there are individual cases like that of course. But since statistically it is likely she will lose her desire for him anyway, maybe that wasn’t the reason after all.

But regardless, each couple can only examine their dynamic with each other to find ways to overcome their own issues. Even if their issue is simply that she lost desire even though he did not change. That couple will still have to work out how she can feel desire again. Or maybe she can’t and they split up.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> That couple will still have to work out how she can feel desire again. Or maybe she can’t and they split up.


Or maybe she can't and they stay together. >


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> @BioFury
> 
> There are several duplicated studies that show many women lose their desire for one man over time, while most men don’t lose their desire for the one woman.
> 
> ...


Funny you mention this FW. My W was having issues with her Kindle purchases showing up on her phone, so I fixed the issue for her this past weekend. As i fixed and all her books started showing, one of the recent books (I forget the exact title) had to do with "rediscovering your desire.". From speaking to my W, she acknowledges that I tick off just every thing she would want or need, so the question for her now is more so why (there is no reason why the desire shouldn't be there, so why at times isn't it?). Part of the answer you can see clearly just by comparing her when we are on vacation non kids vs the other 350+ days a year when we are not lol.

OK, side note. I never really use the Kindle app, but I have two books (She Cums First and some Super Mario Strategy guide to help out my son). Anyway, when I bought my daughter a Fire tablet (she was 3 at the time) I didn't realize it would automatically attach to my kindle purchases. I was scrolling through the screens with my daughter and all of a sudden She Cums First pops up lol. Fortunately she was too young to read or understand, so crisis averted


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > That couple will still have to work out how she can feel desire again. Or maybe she can’t and they split up.
> ...


Right. Like you, and @uhtred. Sometimes it’s not worth leaving over. 

I have a female friend who one time told me during a conversation about her marriage, that she had lost her sex drive and her husband wasn’t happy about it. I was assuming at first this was because he was treating her terribly (because that’s what the conversation was actually about). But no, she told me this had happened to her before in LTR’s, it’s just normal for her, and she doesn’t know why.

I wanted to talk to her more and ask some questions. Like, why do you think that should be ok for him though? And did you tell him that you knew you lose your desire in LTR’s before you got married? 

They split up over other things, and I knew those other things were the real issue right now so I did not go down that road with her.

Later in other conversations, she was expressing the feeling that she didn’t understand why he was so upset over the lack of sex or desire, when she had bent over backwards and in ways no spouse should have to do about other things he needed and ways he required support and love. 

I did not say what I was thinking, I just listened. She is LD. I am HD. So my feelings on the matter weren’t going to help her in any way. She likely will remain single now. I don’t think her partnered sex life will ever exist again. And she seems ok with that.

If only she could have been self aware, and not entered a relationship without explaining this change that was inevitably to come. 

If I found out she was gonna get back with someone again, I would initiate a discussion about this, and encourage her to only have casual short term relationships, and would share the stats I know about with her so she could see this may just be a function of female sexuality. But that it is something we should definitely be aware of and understand how it may affect us personally. In her case, she already knew this happens to her. But what she did not know was that it would matter so much to her partner. I would attribute this to her being LD.

She was typically HD in the beginning of all of her relationships.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,
The quality of your analysis is consistently excellent. 

I have read articles about those studies. 




Faithful Wife said:


> @BioFury
> 
> There are several duplicated studies that show many women lose their desire for one man over time, while most men don’t lose their desire for the one woman.
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Right. Like you, and @uhtred. Sometimes it’s not worth leaving over.


And sometimes it is but we stay anyway. Which is usually the fault of the HD more than the LD.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,
Your earlier point was so absolutely true - about people looking inside for answers and being capable of painful honesty. 

And while biology seems to hurt female desire more than male in LTRs, a lot of male posters in sexually frustrating marriages do something which I think is poisonous. They have what’s called ‘The talk’. 

If you measure a conversation by the amount of new information exchanged - those talks produce ZERO. It always seemed odd to me that the angry, sexually frustrated person didn’t seem to grasp that the only path forward was to understand what was driving their partners behavior. 

TAM is sort of a funny place, people can actually get high quality help here - if they are willing to be transparent. But sadly they also get a certain amount of nonsense thrown their way. 




Faithful Wife said:


> Right. Like you, and @uhtred. Sometimes it’s not worth leaving over.
> 
> I have a female friend who one time told me during a conversation about her marriage, that she had lost her sex drive and her husband wasn’t happy about it. I was assuming at first this was because he was treating her terribly (because that’s what the conversation was actually about). But no, she told me this had happened to her before in LTR’s, it’s just normal for her, and she doesn’t know why.
> 
> ...


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Holding dual ideologies. Not knowing what marriage is, divided loyalties, going against natural state of a marriage are a few of the contributing factors. 



BioFury said:


> I don't think that makes any logical sense. Some women can be terrible authorities on explaining _why _they think something, or why they feel something. Merely because the women in your example don't know why they lack a desire to have sex with their husband, doesn't mean there isn't a reasonable explanation - which isn't, "I'm just tired of having sex with such a funny, caring, and sexy man".
> 
> If the woman wanted to have sex with the guy 20 years ago, and nothing has changed, then she will continue to want sex with him. Her lack of desire, is in itself, proof that the equation has been altered.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> This is a sincere observation, not a value judgement.
> 
> IME as partners age, the AVG women retains a higher level of adventurousness and spontaneity (and those are related, but very different) than the man. Thing is - routine - rarely depresses the AVG male sex drive, but routine isn’t super kind to the AVG female desire.
> 
> ...


You an observer or marriage counselor?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> And sometimes it is but we stay anyway. Which is usually the fault of the HD more than the LD.


I don't see how making a deliberate choice creates "fault". You may choose something that makes you unhappy, but there's not really fault in that.

I appreciate your posts a lot specifically because you aren't really blaming yourself or your wife, in this sense. You just made a choice. Not a happy one, but it was yours to make.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I came across this and found it odd:

“The new study also shows that women’s sex drive may depend on the partner’s ability to deliver between the sheets.

*If their partner had sexual problems, such as difficulties getting an erection, the woman was less likely to have problems with her own libido.*

“It's an interesting finding. Women who reported that their partner had sexual problems, had half the risk themselves of experiencing a reduced sex drive,” says Wåhlin-Jacobsen.”

http://sciencenordic.com/why-women-lose-their-sex-drive

Is it some kind of messed up ‘reversed psychology’ at play?
Maybe the key is then to just pretend you can’t get it up...? Can’t be that simple.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

InMyPrime said:


> I came across this and found it odd:
> 
> “The new study also shows that women’s sex drive may depend on the partner’s ability to deliver between the sheets.
> 
> ...


Nope. Delve into the, now politically incorrect, feminine nature.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

InMyPrime said:


> I came across this and found it odd:
> 
> “The new study also shows that women’s sex drive may depend on the partner’s ability to deliver between the sheets.
> 
> ...



From the article: 


_In the previous study, Wåhlin-Jacobsen examined a group of women and discovered that there was a correlation between the level of testosterone and the women’s degree of sexual desire._​
So @faithfulwife , would you be willing to go get some blood work done? I'll foot the bill :grin2: Your testosterone level will become my dating benchmark > Perhaps I can get some of the other ladies to participate, and I can write a dating book about women with testosterone levels above 500 :nerd:


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Personal said:


> I've also always thought women are mostly, wanton and sexually lustful beings that frequently crave sex.
> 
> 
> I'm not exactly sure why to date it has worked for us, in ways it hasn't for others.


I suspect the reason you're confused on outcomes is that your underlying foundational premise isn't as solid as you think.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

@BioFury

I did have my testosterone tested once, a long time ago. They did not discuss anything with me except to say it was “normal”. But I don’t know if maybe it was on the high end of normal? Either way it was not something so high that the doctor looked into it.

I do have the longer ring finger than index finger thing, which is possibly a sign of high testosterone in the fetal state.

But seriously...they really do not yet understand the relationship between hormones and sex drive, not even for men. Because there are many many men who have low T but do not know it because their sex drive is fine and their energy is fine. Low T does not affect all men the same.

Similarly, it may be that I have some optimal combination of estrogen and progesterone that is part of my HD chemistry.

These things are not understood yet and people should take heed when reading about sex drive and hormones. We only have it partly figured out.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> @BioFury
> 
> I did have my testosterone tested once, a long time ago. They did not discuss anything with me except to say it was “normal”. But I don’t know if maybe it was on the high end of normal? Either way it was not something so high that the doctor looked into it.
> 
> ...


*sigh* And I thought I had found a rough means of finding someone horny. But you just had to ruin it :crying:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

BioFury said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > @BioFury
> ...


Your best chance is to be very open with communication when you start dating and express your wish to enter a relationship that includes lots of sex, and lasts that way. 

Her answers will help you to some extent. But since you are looking for a young wife, she may not have any experience with LTR’s and not know how she will feel (even if she tries to speculate).

But her attitude about discussing things will help you to some extent. 

Making your expectations known upfront will help in the long run. She will have it in her head “yeah I’ll have to be a sexual person to be with this guy in the long term”.

This is probably something most men do not state upfront in relationships, because the sex is going great at that time and it doesn’t occur to them it might change.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Making your expectations known upfront will help in the long run. She will have it in her head “yeah I’ll have to be a sexual person to be with this guy in the long term”.
> 
> This is probably something most men do not state upfront in relationships, because the sex is going great at that time and it doesn’t occur to them it might change.


Why would it occur to us unless we've been hosed in the past? 0


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Making your expectations known upfront will help in the long run. She will have it in her head “yeah I’ll have to be a sexual person to be with this guy in the long term”.
> ...


Why would it occur to her if she has only had short term relationships and her drive was high during all of those?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

@BioFury

One more thing about vetting women for HD....

I think there is some research that suggests that women who masturbate regularly and don’t have shame about it, are more likely to be more sexual.

So in establishing a new relationship, if you show interest in and acceptance of masturbation, both yours and hers, and express interest in her habits, you will learn a lot about her.

I remember a guy friend who was dating a girl who was either a virgin, or she was saving her next PIV sexual encounter for her future husband. He said she had told him about her frequent masturbation and that she was so horny all the time, she couldn’t wait to find a husband.

Although she was very strictly religious, she did not apparently have any shame about masturbating, and she seemed to understand her desire to masturbate was related to her sex drive. Which she couldn’t wait to unleash on a husband.

She also was good at denying herself, obviously. Because she did not just fall “prey” to her extreme lust even though she was dating my friend and they did make out and get hot and heavy several times. He even gave her an orgasm through her pants a few times, though I wouldn’t say her being highly orgasmic like that was necessarily going to always happen through the same means. When you are being denied (by yourself) but also aroused, sometimes it just happens.

In the end, he opted out because he couldn’t commit to marriage before sex, and I don’t know what became of her. But my assumption is that she probably found an awesome, religious, HD guy. 

Look for these signals.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> @BioFury
> 
> One more thing about vetting women for HD....
> 
> ...


Bravo!

I love it when you so simply and directly nail one of your enlightened posts. Inspiring. I can think of a few generations who could have benefited from such thought before committing to marriage or long term monogamy.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > @BioFury
> ...


Yes, for sure. However, this type of conversation is harder for a lot of men than men like you assume. See Peter’s thread to see what I mean.

A lot more men than you probably think have deep insecurities about women’s sexual behavior, solo and partnered. They have fears about vibrators, porn, erotica.

While the majority of men at TAM seem to assume that men are the ones who get “up to things” that women don’t like, in my dating and sexual relationship experience, there are a large number of men who feel weird about what a woman gets up to. These men will ask weird questions, snoop in drawers, and draw porn related conclusions to what a woman gets up to based on the snooped evidence.

I don’t have a problem with what these men want, nor what women who feel their sex life with one man is sacred and shouldn’t be squandered on porn.

The problem sometimes is that jealousy or fear of the other’s sexuality over comes the desire to just have a fun sexual partnership. The stereotype is that women are the ones whose jealousy gets in the way of this. But from what I’ve observed in the wild, neither gender holds the trophy for most sexual jealousy.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Your best chance is to be very open with communication when you start dating and express your wish to enter a relationship that includes lots of sex, and lasts that way.
> 
> Her answers will help you to some extent. But since you are looking for a young wife, she may not have any experience with LTR’s and not know how she will feel (even if she tries to speculate).
> 
> ...


Granted, my experience is limited, but do not most women have sexual feelings for men they're into in the beginning? Discussing it will ferret out the women who have openly negative feelings about sex, but are those not a small percentage of sexually indifferent women? Particularly if they want me, they won't want to run me off with "Eh, I've never gotten the whole sex thing" Me: :surprise: :| I'd run out of there so fast they'd think I was Quick Silver. And they know it too.

And all this besides, as you pointed out, a majority of the women I'll be dating are virgins. So it will be hard (har har) to get any reliable answer from them, given that it will be pure speculation on their part.



Faithful Wife said:


> @BioFury
> 
> One more thing about vetting women for HD....
> 
> ...


Next time you run into a woman like that, send her my way, and I'll sing at your wedding. Or buy you a lifetime supply of batteries :grin2:

In the spotting nymphos thread, it did seem that masturbation throughout adolescence was the only consistent variable in the HD women of the forum. But if masturbation is a taboo topic among normal people, as seems to be the case from the "her vibrator" thread, it would be more so in religious circles. So it's hardly going to be a 3rd date conversation. More like "Now that we're considering marriage, tell me about...".

Finding the right people is so time consuming :frown2:


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> @BioFury
> 
> One more thing about vetting women for HD....
> 
> ...


Except for when those signals make no difference to identifying a HD woman at all.

After almost 23 years, my wife is still up for frequent sex at 4-6x a week and often more at circa 8-9x a week.

Through all of those years, her enthusiasm and desire has waned little. Despite her almost being killed in front of me, injured at work, thyroid issues, pregnancies, vaginal births (and tearing), abortions, a redundancy, 9 different homes through those same years. Plus having our youngest in hospital for months to date so far.

Yet she isn't much of a masturbator.

My current wife, was a virgin until shortly before we started dating (she was close to 26), since she was saving herself for marriage. Although she had a number of boyfriends from 18 (hidden from her parents), plus marriage offers, she relates kissing and a little fondling was as far as she got.. Then to her relief her father (who was a raging tyrant) died, and she decided "**** it", I'm sick of saving myself. So she quickly said yes to a sexual relationship as the other woman, with a divorced work colleague who had a long term girlfriend (who was also a work colleague).

Being raised Catholic (even having ambitions to be a Nun when younger), she thought masturbation was wrong. Who although having tried it a few times, relates that she had never orgasmed from it, and felt bad about even trying it. Of which even today as a hangover from that, she masturbates very infrequently in her own time, yet has no problem fiddling with herself when we play.

That said she is open to talking about sex.

With her first sexual partner she mostly enjoyed her experience with him. Relating that it was sometimes exciting, including when they had sex in a nightclub. Except that after a while she found that having an orgasm was always completely elusive. Long story short, he ends up telling her, variations of: What's wrong with you? See you're having an orgasm (when she wasn't)!. To the point that she started faking having orgasms to save an argument.

Then she asked me out on a date, where I spent the night with her heavy petting and talking, then on our third date, she clumsily initiated sex with me by trying to pull me down on top of her in her bedroom. She didn't orgasm that first time. Yet to her pleasure, frequent orgasm that were easily had soon followed. Oh and I told her to dump the other guy, which she complied with immediately.

In the first place before sex I presumed she was experienced like me (as almost all of my other sexual partners were), yet she wasn't. So she was quite awkward to begin with and confessed that she had never had a penis in her mouth before or performed oral sex. Or had done much at all, it was mostly him being patient, giving her oral sex and fingering her. More recently she has told me, that she was really nervous about the idea of giving me oral sex. Yet where the other guy was patient and said whenever you're ready (so it didn't happen). My response was along the lines of. You'll get good at it, since you're going to get lots of practice. So she took it in her mouth very frequently.

She relates that I treated her like she was a lustful animal, which made her feel like a lustful animal and wanted more sex because of it. After a short while she had tapped into the wanton snorting sexual animal, that she is as are almost all of the other women I have been with.

So my now wife went very quickly from a woman, who mostly didn't masturbate, and was a virgin till a couple of months before turning 26. To a woman who loves anal sex (can sometimes orgasm from that, which is is nice as she puckers extremely rapidly around my penis) and double penetration. Who also orgasms easily from penis in vagina, oral, digital, or (organic or manufactured) phallus stimulation. Poses for sex photos and videos, receives golden showers and takes pee in her mouth. Swallows cum, drools cum, shows me cum in her mouth, takes her face being splattered with cum. Rims me, does prostate massage. Has sex in public places, flashes me and has no issue with pornography/erotica and even encourages me to take erotic pictures for other women and do drawings and paintings of women who pose nude for me amongst many other things as well.

One thing she relates is that with all of her previous boyfriends, all of whom she dumped. She found that over time she grew bored with them and lost all attraction. She tells me that they were great guys, nice, hard working, decent, accommodating, patient and often doted on her. While a couple seemed to worship her and only wanted to please her every whim.

Yet she found such accommodation, niceness and dotage, a turn off. She says it made her feel more like they were just friends or siblings. She didn't want men that were patient, she wanted men that wanted to have her and didn't want to wait. She also found their happy girlfriend happy life attitude, to be weak and insipid which did little to stir desire within her.

She has also read plenty of sexless marriage threads on here (because I have shown them to her). Funnily enough in every instance she claims that she would have stopped having sex with them as well. Since she feels she would lose desire for them, since they're too nice and not forward enough in a lustful way.

She thinks that keeping sex varied and exciting variably fixes boredom or forestalls it considerably. She thinks that my not treating her like a mother, or a sibling and not being needy, helps keep the fire burning. While my wanting to use her every which way, purely for my own wanton gratification and owning that without apology. Still gives her tingles and makes her feel free to express her own animal desires without feeling shamed over it. She also relates that she feels free to be herself, because I don't say what she tells me she wants to hear.

She also feels I don't smother her, and being secure about myself makes her feel okay as well. She also likes how I am okay that she finds other men sexually attractive, in the same way that she is okay with me finding other women sexually attractive. She also finds that cuddling over time drops her sexual desire and likes that I don't cuddle her very much at all (that said we do often hold hands when out and about).

We also don't think monogamy is the only way and think non-monogamy is perfectly fine as long as it's consenting (that said to date we have been monogamous with each other). The only issue we have, is we think cheating is poor form. So if one wants to go off reservation, they should do so only after informing their partner and preferably after reaching agreement on how best to go there.

We also don't think that ending a long term sexual relationship is a bad thing, even after decades if some or all parties no longer desire the other or each other.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BioFury said:


> From the article:
> 
> 
> _In the previous study, Wåhlin-Jacobsen examined a group of women and discovered that there was a correlation between the level of testosterone and the women’s degree of sexual desire._​
> So @faithfulwife , would you be willing to go get some blood work done? I'll foot the bill :grin2: Your testosterone level will become my dating benchmark > Perhaps I can get some of the other ladies to participate, and I can write a dating book about women with testosterone levels above 500 :nerd:



Might be a bit creepy turning up with a syringe  on a first date.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Personal said:
> 
> 
> > I've also always thought women are mostly, wanton and sexually lustful beings that frequently crave sex.
> ...


As in other people are not doing something to maintain and most importantly continue to regenerate desire.

Our sex life has never been static. If it were same old same old I would have dumped my wife years ago, just as she would have dumped me for the same reasons as well.

As to women not being wanton and highly lustful beings.

In my experience with mostly European (Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, French, Russian), British, Australian, Japanese and secular Israeli women amongst some others. SO many were up for it, and they were the ones often asking for it or initiating.

Post divorce in my early twenties, I ****ed one woman who I had just met, not long after being inside another woman at another venue. Both of whom started chatting me up.

Likewise after having drunken sex with one woman in a nightclub, I was asked out on a date about an hour later by another woman. Who I had sex wiht the following day, who took me out to see a film/dinner, then back to hers where she asked me to have sex with her.

It was easy to sometimes happily have sex with one woman at a party and to then have sex with another a little while later at the same party and to even be approached by another while with one of the others.

On another occasion, I went home with one woman who took me to her home for a foursome (which I left part way through as I sobered up). Plus there were some women, who wanted me to dance with them, who let me put my fingers inside them through their panties while on the dance floor.

Then there was another woman, who wanted to go with me and my mate to his place, to my surprise abandoning her friends to instead play with us.

I've had sex with a few women who had boyfriends or in limited instances were married. Even one woman who was married and heavily pregnant, yet she was the one who called me and asked me for it. Yet I have never cheated on any of my own sexual partners ever. Yet I had no qualms about being with others who didn't, feel any desire to be faithful to their own beaus. Yet so much of my adult experience has been filled with plenty of women who are deeply sexual and have an immense well of desire.

When I was 16, some of my female peers at parties had sex in the same room as others. One of my girlfriends gave me oral sex and had me do the same to her and penetrate her with my fingers. That girlfriend after I dropped her had sex with lots of guys, at one point it was around 10, on one night. We're still friends by the way and she is cool.

Another friend when we were 16, she used to let me and a mate play with her pink bits quite often because she liked it.

When my ex-wife and I started together, she was 16 and I was 17 and within 2-3 hours we ****ed each other repeatedly (she sought me to kiss). Through the night into the morning, in a room with our mutual male and female friends. Then after that, I had her mostly 3-4x a day, even in her bedroom with her sitting on my lap, wearing a long dress since she had to have the door open or else! Plus at parks on my lunch break at work on and on.

Then there is the things they would do, I only encountered one woman who had any notable limit and that was anal sex. Plus one other who was too shy sexually, despite her initiating sex on the first date, so I let her go since I wasn't feeling it.

That said anal sex, wasn't usually a thing for most one-night-stands, yet it sometimes was. And of one-night-stands, except in two instances, the women I played with were not wanting anything more than to play in the moment and move on.

One of my girlfriends, related on the night I met her. Which was months before I randomly bumped into her and asked her out. How she picked up a guy that night and they ****ed on a train and how exciting it was for her. Which was pretty cool for her, I was glad she enjoyed herself. Plus it was nice like most I have been with she also had a high sex drive as well.

My ex-wife was also into watersports/pee play, she was the one who initiated that stuff. She was simply extremely sexual, (similar list to my now wife) and had little limit at all. In fact I can't think of anything she wouldn't do while I was with her from 17 to close to 21. Yet I've been with others like her (oddly enough those ones have been mostly Catholic raised women).

When in High School, it was High School girls. Then after that it was mostly university or college women, office workers, and recent uni graduates. Plus the odd new housemate or work colleague as well. Then the offers by professional women (legal/media/arts) at playgroups, following having kids (those were turned down of course).

If it wasn't for this forum, I wouldn't have known that there was this idea. That some people think women, aren't sexually wanton creatures. Since so far, that hasn't been my experience.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

anonmd said:


> Why would it occur to us unless we've been hosed in the past? 0



Even if it does, it may turn off 95% of women.
That’s what you hear from participants from OLD: “are there any normal guys?” “why are they such sex creeps?”

This is a total stereotype (sorry @NobodySpecial, close your eyes ) but it used to be a man’s job to convince a girl that it’s not all about sex for him and it used to be a woman’s role not to discuss what kind of table cloths will be used for their wedding on the first few dates...

And it’s funny to write it because it was not quite like that with us.

I agree these things should somehow be communicated early on though. But maybe they should introduce classes in schools about differences in male and female sexuality first. (Try doing that without pissing off the Uber-feminists though).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Bravo!
> 
> 
> 
> I love it when you so simply and directly nail one of your enlightened posts. Inspiring. I can think of a few generations who could have benefited from such thought before committing to marriage or long term monogamy.



It might add one benefit and replace it with another risk though: a very horny wife, who then somehow ends up not finding her partner attractive after 3 years (which so frequently happens), is much more likely to cheat.

I don’t believe there is quite such a reliable formula unfortunately...The reason things slow down is not just because women are inherently more LD on average (to me, this is a somewhat meaningless term). I don’t actually think they are (although some are). Their drive just works slightly differently but majority still really really enjoy the ****ing...

Something happens in the ‘chemistry’ between TWO people. Husbands become like needy, annoying toddlers in the eyes of the wife and wives become like nagging, annoying control freaks (who the husband still wants to **** every day but expects them to initiate, bend over and strip around a pole etc). (Stereotype here again, apologies).
It’s really quite a bit more complex than that...

I think for a successful long term partnership a number of things have to come together. Couples need to not only work with each other but also on themselves individually. Also there should not be too much external pressure that could create stresses (financial/career pressures etc). It’s difficult. And because it’s difficult, i sometimes wonder whether something is not hardwired quite perfectly as things tend to fall apart more often than not.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Also I’m not sure I would want to be with someone who masturbates 3 times a day (not that there’s anything wrong with that). 
I love the fact that I can tell that my wife’s drive is about me (at least it appears that way) and not about the itch itself. Maybe that’s why I sometimes joke with her about hotwife stuff (become too confident). It’s a tricky balance I think that again works for us (90% of the time*) but maybe won’t, for others I dunno.

*there’s that one week a month where nothing works...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Yes, I was just going to write about jealousy...
I am not sure that dynamic would work for me (and I assume many other men?). I can definitely see the appeal for ‘no strings attached’ relationships with such a partner, but longer term, it would probably freak me out.

I have seen men left ‘decapitated’ from that type of dynamic (most red pullers I gather went through something like this). So the question becomes what is the lesser of the two ‘evils’: risk of less frequent/vanilla-like sex or heartbreak and being left without balls for the rest of your life...(I don’t mean that anyone is a nasty person just that this kind of prejudice is what always drove my thoughts and instincts when choosing a partner).

I need ‘my’ woman to submit to me (sexually).
The flip side is though to still treat her as an individual with a lot of respect in normal walks of life. I sometimes have issues of being over protective over my partner and this can cause (or exaggerate) her inferiority complexes.



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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> Even if it does, it may turn off 95% of women.
> That’s what you hear from participants from OLD: are there any normal guys? why are they such sex creeps?
> 
> This is a total stereotype (sorry @NobodySpecial, close your eyes ) but it used to be a man’s job to convince a girl that it’s not all about sex for him and it used to be a woman’s role not to discuss what kind of table cloths will be used for their wedding on the first few dates...
> ...


You would not know an uber feminist if it bit you in the face. You'd be pissed if the classes in schools about the differences were based in anything scientific or real... you know... vs what you imagine.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> You would not know an uber feminist if it bit you in the face. You'd be pissed if the classes in schools about the differences were based in anything scientific or real... you know... vs what you imagine.



I feel like something is biting me this minute...  can’t quite put my finger on it where though 
Slow day?



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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> _*I feel like something is biting me this minute*_...  can’t quite put my finger on it where though
> Slow day?
> 
> 
> ...


Case in point. 

You know that I started this thread, right? Thus, I am following it. Is it this thread where you even mention me in order to tell me not to look? Not sure what your deal is. But if you please were to stay on topic, that would be helpful.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BioFury said:


> Discussing it will ferret out the women who have openly negative feelings about sex, but are those not a small percentage of sexually indifferent women?


I don’t believe that’s how it works or that a conversation will ferret out to the degree that it will significantly reduce risks of ending up with no sex for rest of your life. You will first need to ‘ferret out’ whether she is self aware and honest enough and that is harder than asking: “do you like the sex?” . Every woman surely knows sex is important for guys. So if she really wants you as her potential long term partner, why would she tell you that she is not into sex all that much? 

Moreover, she may even believe that she is into sex herself only to find out later that she is t. So I do t think most women technically lie (that’s why I don’t like the term bait and switch). They just not always know what it is they want or feel, not to mention how they are going to fell IN THE FUTURE.
The guys here that complain, often write how their wife appears to want to have sex, at some point in time, but then when it comes to it, they don’t anymore or are not sure...If that happens in existing relationships, how is a guy supposed to know how the woman is going to feel like several years down the line?

It would be really great if a conversation (or some kind of questionnaire) could weed out people’s preferences, but in practice it may not work a lot of the time.



BioFury said:


> Finding the right people is so time consuming :frown2:



Could be worth it though.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Bravo!
> 
> I love it when you so simply and directly nail one of your enlightened posts. Inspiring. I can think of a few generations who could have benefited from such thought before committing to marriage or long term monogamy.


+1 individual... except I am probably part of one of the generations.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Personal said:


> As in other people are not doing something to maintain and most importantly continue to regenerate desire.
> 
> Our sex life has never been static. If it were same old same old I would have dumped my wife years ago, just as she would have dumped me for the same reasons as well.
> 
> ...


I have witnessed much of the same.

But I have also witnessed the opposite.

That your experience has witnessed mostly one type doesn't mean the other type isn't also common.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, for sure. However, this type of conversation is harder for a lot of men than men like you assume. See Peter’s thread to see what I mean.
> 
> A lot more men than you probably think have deep insecurities about women’s sexual behavior, solo and partnered. They have fears about vibrators, porn, erotica.
> 
> While the majority of men at TAM seem to assume that men are the ones who get “up to things” that women don’t like, in my dating and sexual relationship experience, there are a large number of men who feel weird about what a woman gets up to.


Not just weird. Threatened. That a woman's sexuality is not all about the him in the relationship.



> These men will ask weird questions, snoop in drawers, and draw porn related conclusions to what a woman gets up to based on the snooped evidence.
> 
> I don’t have a problem with what these men want, nor what women who feel their sex life with one man is sacred and shouldn’t be squandered on porn.
> 
> The problem sometimes is that jealousy or fear of the other’s sexuality over comes the desire to just have a fun sexual partnership. The stereotype is that women are the ones whose jealousy gets in the way of this. But from what I’ve observed in the wild, neither gender holds the trophy for most sexual jealousy.


In my experience, sexual jealousy is considerably more the realm of men.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I have a guess about one reason the hetero bed death occurs. I think it may be about our shapes. And this may be something that could be measured for.

I think there is something fairly inescapable about the visual cue we have of sexual health...which for men is seeing a woman’s hourglass shape, and for women is seeing a mans triangular upper body shape. These are the cues we have built in apparently. These shapes are burned into our minds and we automatically start seeking them (or simply noticing them) in puberty. I’m not gonna dig up old stuff on this because I think this is fairly accepted at this point. Though if anyone has seen that this has been debunked, please let us know. 

Hourglass and triangle have a lot of variation. Even a somewhat skinny guy’s shoulders are still a bit wider than his hips. Even a fairly overweight woman’s waist is still smaller than her hips and boobs. 

In LTR’s, men tend to gain weight (also their hormones change). When men gain weight it almost always goes to their belly. And once the belly is wider than the shoulders, you are no longer a triangle, you’re an apple. Apples don’t make us horny. They just don’t. I know for every apple shaped guy there may be a gal who wants him, but the average gal seeing his body in a line up would say “ew”.

When women gain weight, which they also do in LTR’s, they tend to remain hourglass shaped, or they become a bit pear shaped. But men don’t seem to mind pears and larger hourglasses. Seeing these body shapes in a line up, they would say “I’ll take them all”.

At the same time, men aren’t usually attracted to apple shaped women. There are exceptions when a woman is pregnant (which is also a very tiny portion of a woman’s life). But generally, if her waist is larger than her hips and boobs, this is not attractive to men. But most women do not gain weight in this way.

Now...at some point in the LTR, she notices his changing shape and she tells herself and him that it doesn’t bother her. She is gaining too and he assures her it doesn’t bother him. And yet....mysteriously....her drive slows down and down...neither of them know why.

Ok I know there is a lot wrong with this broad generalization. But what I’m trying to point at is a possible reason that could cause the generalized statistics that women’s drive does in fact wane for one man over time. Since it is also statistically true that men start to become apples around the same time women’s drive magically disappears, I’m just saying.

On the idea of keeping it fresh...changing your body around is a great way to do that. On some level, your mind sees your partner almost as a new/different person simply because the shape of their body changes. My ex h and I both used to fluctuate a little in weight between summer and winter. For me, I was slightly less attracted the more apple shaped he got (which was very minimal), and then wildly more attracted as he lost fat or became more fit (he was always very muscly, that part never went away, just sometimes got more muscly). For him, he was wild,y attracted no matter what. When I gained 10 pounds he’d say “ooohhh....I love it when you play the chubby girl” and when I’d lose it he’d say “omg....I love it when you play the skinny girl.”

For me, it was fun to feel the dip and then rise in attraction for him. The dip made the rise exciting. For him, it was just all rise all the time, and I think that’s the difference that causes the hetero bed death thing.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> In my experience, sexual jealousy is considerably more the realm of men.


I’d say it has to be equal. I’ve had so many female friends express varying levels of jealousy. From mild to bunny burner.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Not just weird. Threatened. That a woman's sexuality is not all about the him in the relationship.



Your assumption here is that it is actually the man who thinks (or wants) the woman’s sexuality to be about ‘the him’. I wouldn’t put it like that though; just that there is definitely a large proportion of women who DO prefer to be in a sexually submissive relationship and that there is also a large proportion of men who don’t think that any woman would want that (because of feminism indoctrination).

Just because you don’t like it it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist (and in pretty large numbers).

It’s not all black and white though: there areas in our relationship where my wife is certainly more dominant than me (when it comes to kids, diplomacy and social manners...of which I don’t have many ).



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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I’d say it has to be equal. I’ve had so many female friends express varying levels of jealousy. From mild to bunny burner.


The experience to which I refer is pretty specific. I have no illusion that it applies across relationships.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> Your assumption here is that it is actually the man who thinks (or wants) the woman’s sexuality to be about ‘the him’. I wouldn’t put it like that though; just that there is definitely a large proportion of women who DO prefer to be in a sexually submissive relationship and that there is also a large proportion of men who don’t think that (because of feminism indoctrination).
> 
> Just because you don’t like it it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist (and in pretty large numbers).
> 
> It’s not all black and white though: there areas in our relationship where my wife is certainly more dominant than me (when it comes to kids, diplomacy and social manners...of which I don’t have many ).


Being a person who is very sexually submissive, I have to think you have no idea what that means. 

You should feel free to stop telling me what I like and don't like any time now. That would be nice.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OK, maybe this has been discussed (for some reason I feel like this article was brought up before), but I don't quite follow this:



> It’s not uncommon for women to let their straight partners play in a “monogamy gray zone,” to give guys access to tensional outlets that allow them to cheat without really cheating. “Happy ending” massages, oral sex at bachelor parties, lap dances, escorts at conferences … influenced by ubiquitous pop-cultural cues, many people believe that men need these opportunities for recreational “sorta sex” because “it’s how men are.”


It's not uncommon??? I mean, I do know a few guys who have pushed the envelope at a bachelor party and engaged in some form of sex (which is flat out cheating). However, this is just not common (at least from what I have seen) nor I have seen women be accepting of letting their men go out to get HJs/BJs.

The author then follows up with the below:



> So when we speak of desire in the future, we should acknowledge that the fairer sex thirsts for the frisson of an encounter with someone or something new as much as, if not more, than men do—and that they could benefit from a gray-zone hall pass, too.


Once again, going with the notion that guys commonly cheat on their SOs, apparently the answer is to grant women these same "hall passes". To save the relationship and bring her desire back, let her go bang a stranger :scratchhead:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> In LTR’s, men tend to gain weight (also their hormones change). When men gain weight it almost always goes to their belly. And once the belly is wider than the shoulders, you are no longer a triangle, you’re an apple. Apples don’t make us horny. They just don’t. I know for every apple shaped guy there may be a gal who wants him, but the average gal seeing his body in a line up would say “ew”.


But but but, all this talk I keep hearing about how women love Dad bods :scratchhead:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Being a person who is very sexually submissive, I have to think you have no idea what that means.
> 
> 
> 
> You should feel free to stop telling me what I like and don't like any time now. That would be nice.



Perfect! So we are in full agreement about the whole topic then! 


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> But but but, all this talk I keep hearing about how women love Dad bods :scratchhead:


My sexuality does not look much like FW's! My husband's shape is not currently the chiseled thing it used to be, and likely will again since he goes in phases of gym and not gym. When gym is on, he hits it hard. But his tool belt still fits! I'm in!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> Perfect! So we are in full agreement about the whole topic then!


M. Only if you don't know how to read. Which seems evident.

Oh wait. That you don't know what you are talking about? Yes, we are in full agreement.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Why would it occur to her if she has only had short term relationships and her drive was high during all of those?


I did not like this, I thought about but I held back.  Just seems so tit for tat. Weren't you the one who recently discovered some empathetic superpower or something?

Once, a long time ago, when we were dating. We were in a motel room many hundreds of miles from home after a tiring day of driving from sunup to sun down. Actually on the way to a friends wedding. I may the statement the "I will never turn you down", she smiled. Didn't actually say anything, sucker or fool?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> My sexuality does not look much like FW's! My husband's shape is not currently the chiseled thing it used to be, and likely will again since he goes in phases of gym and not gym. When gym is on, he hits it hard. But his tool belt still fits! I'm in!


I am a firm believer in doing your best to stay in shape and not letting yourself go (within reason of course). I just feel like this dad bod thing is so far in the other direction. I guess it depends, are more women more like you or more like how FW described? I believe part of the idea was that a guy with a good body was probably self absorbed and more likely to cheat vs Mr Dad bod, so that was part of the appeal to women...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> The experience to which I refer is pretty specific. I have no illusion that it applies across relationships.



You mean the experience of male jealousy? Yes it’s pretty specific to males. While female jealousy is specific to females 


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I am a firm believer in doing your best to stay in shape and not letting yourself go (within reason of course). I just feel like this dad bod thing is so far in the other direction. I guess it depends, are more women more like you or more like how FW described? I believe part of the idea was that a guy with a good body was probably self absorbed and more likely to cheat vs Mr Dad bod, so that was part of the appeal to women...


Blech. I have no knowledge of general opinions on Dad bod.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> You mean the experience of male jealousy? Yes it’s pretty specific to males. While female jealousy is specific to females


The experience of jealousy within swinging and polyamorous relationships.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> But but but, all this talk I keep hearing about how women love Dad bods :scratchhead:


I think that can be wrapped up in the same message as telling you all you have to do is provide and she will want you.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> OK, maybe this has been discussed (for some reason I feel like this article was brought up before), but I don't quite follow this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The takeaway for me that was not interesting was not the conclusion that hall passes are a good idea but that women's sexuality contains elements that might not have been considered.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think that can be wrapped up in the same message as telling you all you have to do is provide and she will want you.


mmmm hmmm.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> The experience of jealousy within swinging and polyamorous relationships.




When did the topic change to swinging? I thought we were discussion ‘regular’ relationships...

That, I wouldn’t know much about. I would also discourage anyone who would want to try it. Unless they know exactly what they are getting into (which most people don’t. Quite a few couples went ‘puff’ on this very forum who thought it was a brilliant idea). Sometimes it’s the guy who can’t cope with jealousy, sometimes it’s the woman who falls for the other dude that was banging her (in which case the guy had every reason to be jealous. But he was also a dumbass for getting into it in the first place).


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> My sexuality does not look much like FW's! My husband's shape is not currently the chiseled thing it used to be, and likely will again since he goes in phases of gym and not gym. When gym is on, he hits it hard. But his tool belt still fits! I'm in!


My ex h was not chiseled. I know it may sound like that’s what I’m saying. He was just naturally big and strong and muscly. He never worked out. He would get more muscly from manly stuff around the house. He was not a cut specimen, never had visible abs. Just painting a clearer picture! 

Those shoulders and biceps though.........mmmmm


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> When did the topic change to swinging? I thought we were discussion ‘regular’ relationships...



Try to keep up.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Try to keep up.




Haha, yes Mrs Robinson. Sorry, Mrs Robinson. Please don’t give me a detention! 


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> I am a firm believer in doing your best to stay in shape and not letting yourself go (within reason of course). I just feel like this dad bod thing is so far in the other direction. I guess it depends, are more women more like you or more like how FW described? I believe part of the idea was that a guy with a good body was probably self absorbed and more likely to cheat vs Mr Dad bod, so that was part of the appeal to women...


I think it’s more about the shape. If dad is apple shaped (waist is larger than hips and shoulders), sorry bleah. But if dad is still a triangle on top (broad shoulders larger than hips and waist), then yum.

As I just said to NS, my ex h was never chiseled specimen and he always had a soft belly. But he also had extremely broad shoulders and lovely biceps. He kept these up through hard work. He did technically have almost a dad bod because of the softness in his belly. 

Again, the shape is the cue.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think that can be wrapped up in the same message as telling you all you have to do is provide and she will want you.


So basically having a dad bod and providing for her is not a guaranteed path towards laidsville???


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> The experience of jealousy within swinging and polyamorous relationships.


I mean, I’ve experienced these types of relationships too...and I still saw it as equal.

Like when I went on a date with a couple who supposedly wanted a unicorn, until she saw me and freaked out right then and there and went on an insane jealous rant. Check please? 

That’s one of many examples.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> So basically having a dad bod and providing for her is not a guaranteed path towards laidsville???


This comes as a surprise?!?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I mean, I’ve experienced these types of relationships too...and I still saw it as equal.
> 
> Like when I went on a date with a couple who supposedly wanted a unicorn, until she saw me and freaked out right then and there and went on an insane jealous rant. Check please?
> 
> That’s one of many examples.


Sure. That has happened to us as well. The number of times we had a dude lose his **** in the bedroom is simply a LOT more.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> This comes as a surprise?!?


Yes, very much so ... (obvious sarcasm intended).

However, I do genuinely believe there are guys who do think this true, and to some extent I have seen this idea pushed in the media.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Yes, very much so ... (obvious sarcasm intended).
> 
> However, I do genuinely believe there are guys who do think this true, and to some extent I have seen this idea pushed in the media.


I agree with you that there are guys who not only think this is true, will fight tooth and nail to believe it, MAKE it true if they could.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> So basically having a dad bod and providing for her is not a guaranteed path towards laidsville???


I know, right? It’s astounding what science has discovered!

Women are hot for hot men. Provide for her or don’t, she will still be hot for hot men, if you’re hot too then great!


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think it’s more about the shape. If dad is apple shaped (waist is larger than hips and shoulders), sorry bleah. But if dad is still a triangle on top (broad shoulders larger than hips and waist), then yum.
> 
> As I just said to NS, my ex h was never chiseled specimen and he always had a soft belly. But he also had extremely broad shoulders and lovely biceps. He kept these up through hard work. He did technically have almost a dad bod because of the softness in his belly.
> 
> Again, the shape is the cue.


Agreed. Part of the hype with the dad bod was comparing it against guys who were ripped (which on average is not that normal, so not really a realistic comparison). Most guys can have a solid build (similar to your Ex which is likewise similar to my build) and don't need to be chiseled.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Yes, very much so ... (obvious sarcasm intended).
> 
> However, I do genuinely believe there are guys who do think this true, and to some extent I have seen this idea pushed in the media.


Which is why you’ll see an article by some sweet wife who loves her husband’s dad bod...and about how all the men with dad bods should feel secure in how attractive they are. After all, he has dad bod because he’s providing for me!

Except they don’t mention the wife is still in the limerance stage and will soon lose her desire for him (she doesn’t know this either).


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Doh, clients just showed up 30 minutes early so I need to bow out of this for a while 

Play nice NS and IMP >


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> @BioFury
> 
> One more thing about vetting women for HD....
> 
> ...


Like most things when getting to know a new partner, one has to have honesty to make any sort of useful speculation about the future, and it all comes down to playing the odds based on that information.

With my wife and I just finishing up our seventh year together, it'll be interesting to see how the whole "seven year itch" thing plays out, but we are still having frequent amazing sex, and it has actually kept getting better over time.

As uncomfortable as it has been at times, knowing certain things about her past behaviour did give reinforcement to the way she talked about her sexuality, and how she seemed to understand herself. Things seemed to add up, and suggested that it was likely that we could have a long, consistent sex life regardless of most external factors, or internal relationship dynamics for that matter.

The main things that led me to think sex was likely not going to be an issue partnered to her her was that from the time she became sexually active at 13 until we met when she was 36, the longest period of time she had gone without partnered sexual activity was 8 months, and only because her ex husband was in prison. Other than that, it was about two weeks. I think our longest period without sex is six days.

After her ex husband divorced her, despite all of the degradation, abuse and cheating, she continued to have regular, willing sex with him.

Her high partner count was driven early on mainly from a need to feel loved, which turned into a need for validation and acceptance. It also became something like any other recreational activity one would do with someone else such as riding a bike or playing golf.

These things in particular suggested to me that her sex drive was largely internally driven, and not dependent on external factors beyond finding someone physically attractive enough to have sex with, and even there, her bar of attractiveness isn't too terribly high.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I agree with you that there are guys who not only think this is true, will fight tooth and nail to believe it, MAKE it true if they could.


Of course! We see men tell each other here all the time that women place a higher priority on money and cars than looks or hot bodies. 

They of course will wonder some day why she lost her desire for him.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Of course! We see men tell each other here all the time that women place a higher priority on money and cars than looks or hot bodies.
> 
> They of course will wonder some day why she lost her desire for him.


Thus the bait and switch ... which is oft used as an excuse to keep from realizing... dude, maybe you got fat and she was not just into it for the money.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I have a guess about one reason the hetero bed death occurs. I think it may be about our shapes. And this may be something that could be measured for.
> 
> I think there is something fairly inescapable about the visual cue we have of sexual health...which for men is seeing a woman’s hourglass shape, and for women is seeing a mans triangular upper body shape. These are the cues we have built in apparently. These shapes are burned into our minds and we automatically start seeking them (or simply noticing them) in puberty. I’m not gonna dig up old stuff on this because I think this is fairly accepted at this point. Though if anyone has seen that this has been debunked, please let us know.
> 
> ...


I suspected as much. Noted.



Faithful Wife said:


> I think that can be wrapped up in the same message as telling you all you have to do is provide and she will want you.


If I recall, most of the girls that gave a reason for their "dad bod" preference, stated that they didn't want to be with someone who made them feel insecure about their own body. So it was never about attraction, it was about control, and the relational security of being hotter than your partner.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

BioFury said:


> If I recall, most of the girls that gave a reason for their "dad bod" preference, stated that they didn't want to be with someone who made them feel insecure about their own body. So it was never about attraction, it was about control, and the relational security of being hotter than your partner.


Right. But I think some were also just young wives who had not yet hit that mark where the limerence chemicals have worn off yet. So even she doesn’t know that soon her desire for him will wane.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Women are hot for hot men. Provide for her or don’t, she will still be hot for hot men, if you’re hot too then great!


In many of the sexless stories here, that doesn't always seem like the case. I see two different scenarios:

1. I want sex, but I don't want sex with you
2. I don't want sex at all

If the situation is case #1, then the guy can do a lot of relatively superficial things to fix the situation. Getting in better shape, dressing better, etc can all help. But if it's case #2, that stuff probably won't matter a whole lot. If she doesn't think about sex, doesn't look at hot guys and think about sex, and doesn't masturbate, then there's not a lot to work with. Rather than trying to redirect her desire to him, he has to get her to have a desire for sex in the first place. Many of the stories seem like the wife could care less if sex disappeared from their life altogether. It's pretty unlikely that the shape of her H could totally kill her drive altogether. Maybe it could make it so she didn't desire him, but killing it totally seems like something much more complicated.

Even in your past relationships, when you lost interest in your partner, I get the sense that you still had a drive. So you might work with your partner to help satisfy that, or you might leave him to find someone else. That kind of situation is much more fixable than if you didn't have a drive at all. If you didn't care about not having sex, then it would be a lot harder to fix that.


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## MRS.SEXYTAZ (May 10, 2019)

I agree with some of this .....😊👌


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

wilson said:


> In many of the sexless stories here, that doesn't always seem like the case. I see two different scenarios:
> 
> 1. I want sex, but I don't want sex with you
> 2. I don't want sex at all
> ...


Yes. There will always be LD and asexual men and women. I mean the ones who will always be LD regardless of their partner.

Still, those will generally seem HD at the beginning of a relationship. So they may not even know themselves that they are LD because they may have never made it long enough in a relationship to find out what happens to their drive over time.

As for when I had a partner I lost desire for but I did not stop desiring sex in general...yes, it should have been something we could have worked on. I did try, and he did too. But there are couplings who are just never going to get there. I wanted things he couldn’t do. And he wanted me to be happy with what he did do. Total impasse.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BioFury said:


> Granted, my experience is limited, but do not most women have sexual feelings for men they're into in the beginning? Discussing it will ferret out the women who have openly negative feelings about sex, but are those not a small percentage of sexually indifferent women? Particularly if they want me, they won't want to run me off with "Eh, I've never gotten the whole sex thing" Me: :surprise: :| I'd run out of there so fast they'd think I was Quick Silver. And they know it too.
> 
> And all this besides, as you pointed out, a majority of the women I'll be dating are virgins. So it will be hard (har har) to get any reliable answer from them, given that it will be pure speculation on their part.


Perhaps this got lost in the noise...But what I wanted to say mainly (and feel free to disregard it): I think you would still do well by picking a partner who *you* think has all the hallmark qualities of a nice/caring person (and obviously who you find sexually attractive too). Then you find out what the sexual chemistry is like. If you and her have experience, you should be quickly able to tell whether you both 'click' in that department. There is of course no guarantee this won't change but at least you know that it *can* be that good and that's pretty good already.

I think when a lot of problems happen is if a person ignores one aspect for another; or prioritises some aspects over others.
Someone who has never been in a sexually satisfying relationship before or inexperienced in general, is possibly more likely to neglect the sexual part when picking a partner. Or perhaps will pick someone who their mother likes (as a dumb example. But still, don't do that ... 
Other people may neglect some personality traits that later might blow up in their face and no matter how good the sex is, it'll still end in tears. So I didn't mean to make it sound like it's really difficult to pick a suitable partner; just that I don't know how much can realistically be discussed and agreed upon, beforehand. Life and **** will get in the way. I think you'd also do well to actually 'test' it and use your instincts too. (Which I think was also meant that way by other posters, just wanted to reiterate this, sorry).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

samyeagar said:


> Her high partner count was driven early on mainly from a need to feel loved, which turned into a need for validation and acceptance. It also became something like any other recreational activity one would do with someone else such as riding a bike or playing golf.


This. I hear so much of it. Hence why I find threads that advocate how amazing one night stands are for women quite uncomfortable to read...Sorry, but a lot of the time, they just (more often than not) don't mean the same thing for two partners involved. (Sorry for the detour).


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Still, those will generally seem HD at the beginning of a relationship. So they may not even know themselves that they are LD because they may have never made it long enough in a relationship to find out what happens to their drive over time.


Probably from LD's perspective, it is their partner who creates the sex drive within them. If the pattern is HD at the start and then zero-desire later, then they could legitimately say that their partner is creating the desire for sex within them. They may have no drive when they are not dating, so it's reasonable for them to assume it's up to their partner to create that desire. They may also think it's normal for desire to go to zero as the relationship progresses. That may be the reason they think there's something wrong with their partner for wanting sex all the time. Since normal people (relative to themselves) have diminished desire over time, then their partner must be a sex pervert for still wanting it several times a week.

I suppose we have to admit that both ways are normal since it happens so often. Wanting sex regularly or having a diminished drive as the relationship goes on are both common patterns we see often on TAM. The problem really is that these are incompatible patterns rather than one or the other pattern itself is wrong.

For the case where one spouse is LD, the way to work on the problem is to create a loving relationship where the LD spouse gives intimacy because they know it makes their partner happy. Even if they don't have the desire themselves, the happiness it brings their spouse means it makes them happy to give it. If the HD spouse makes the LD spouse feel deficient for not having a drive or not being passionate enough, that is likely going to be counterproductive. It's likely to make the LD person feel more resentful and start feeling sexual aversion.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Sure. That has happened to us as well. *The number of times we had a dude lose his **** in the bedroom* is simply a LOT more.


Come again? :surprise::surprise::surprise:


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> Come again? :surprise::surprise::surprise:


What are you asking?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Sure. That has happened to us as well. The number of times we had a dude lose his **** in the bedroom is simply a LOT more.


Is this situation with two couples exchanging partners?

I don't have experience with this situation so I am trying to form it in my head.

I was with more than one woman but never shared mine or was in a situation with another man


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Is this situation with two couples exchanging partners?


Yes. Well. Sometimes.



> I don't have experience with this situation so I am trying to form it in my head.
> 
> I was with more than one woman but never *shared mine* or was in a situation with another man


haaaa. splurted coffee


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I was with more than one woman but never shared mine or was in a situation with another man



You don’t share a womanz, the womanz shares you! (Did I get this right @NobodySpecial?)













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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Yes. Well. Sometimes.


So was it the man lost his cool seeing or hearing his lady with another partner?

What situations were more common for a man to lose his **** in?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> So was it the man lost his cool seeing or hearing his lady with another partner?
> 
> What situations were more common for a man to lose his **** in?


Seeing and/or his partner with another man.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Seeing and/or his partner with another man.


So why then, in the name of ****, do they do it in the first place? 

Is it normally wife's or husband's idea? Or, rather who floats the idea first to try it?


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Seeing and/or his partner with another man.


Takes a secure confident man who has trust in his wife not to lose it.

Most expect it won't be any different than normal monogamous sex, but for a wife whose husband has convinced her it is okay the newness, excitement adds to the intensity and the man takes it personally.

And then you have those who get shaken at the last minute.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> So why then, in the name of ****, do they do it in the first place?
> 
> Is it normally wife's or husband's idea? Or, rather who floats the idea first to try it?


I don't think some people know themselves that well, are maybe experimenting to find out or are just caught off guard by their visceral reaction.

I would imagine that some people might have not had a visceral or primal reaction on one occasion but did on another.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> I don't think some people know themselves that well, are maybe experimenting to find out or are just caught off guard by their visceral reaction.
> 
> I would imagine that some people might have not had a visceral or primal reaction on one occasion but did on another.


Yes. They see, or think of something which seems exciting but never do the self-evaluation determine if they have the confidence to proceed.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Seeing and/or his partner with another man.


Honest question (hoping for an honest answer): have you ever fallen, or felt attraction (other than purely sexual), for the other guy(s)?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

red oak said:


> Takes a secure confident man who has trust in his wife not to lose it.
> 
> Most expect it won't be any different than normal monogamous sex, but for a wife whose husband has convinced her it is okay the newness, excitement adds to the intensity and the man takes it personally.
> 
> And then you have those who get shaken at the last minute.


There are many ways in which this happens, I think.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

red oak said:


> Yes. They see, or think of something which seems exciting but never do the self-evaluation determine if they have the confidence to proceed.


I will stay away from the "confidence" term. People just need to know themselves.

I am very confident but I don't believe I could share. I am extremely territorial sexually.

I'm not insecure at all or apparently jealous but there are areas in my life where people need to tread cautiously and others that I'm the only member of an exclusive club.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> I will stay away from the "confidence" term. People just need to know themselves.
> 
> I am very confident but I don't believe I could share. I am extremely territorial sexually.
> 
> I'm not insecure at all or apparently jealous but there are areas in my life where people need to tread cautiously and others that I'm the only member of an exclusive club.


Word I was looking for fails to come to mind at the moment so I just used word confidence which isn't very accurate.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I will stay away from the "confidence" term. People just need to know themselves.
> 
> I am very confident but I don't believe I could share. I am extremely territorial sexually.
> 
> I'm not insecure at all or apparently jealous but there are areas in my life where people need to tread cautiously and others that I'm the only member of an exclusive club.


Yep. I am far from insecure or unconfident, and would not even entertain the thought of sharing my wife.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

red oak said:


> Word I was looking for fails to come to mind at the moment so I just used word confidence which isn't very accurate.


Not stupid?

(I know this will be taken out of context so just to make sure I am understood correctly: there's nothing wrong with both people entertaining the idea. What's stupid is to think that it will somehow be amazing while it turns out to be a total dud of an experience.)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

samyeagar said:


> Yep. I am far from insecure or unconfident, and would not even entertain the thought of sharing my wife.


What about if *I* shared your wife? (j/k)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

In gambling (or investing) for example, if there is even a tiny risk of loosing everything, then you just don’t take that bet. No matter how large the payoff.
So you never bet everything. (Or put all your money in one stock or even one place).
Instead you bleed slowly to death...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

We were discussing female sex drive. Let's keep it that way, please. We don't need another thread jack on the horrors of swinging.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> We were discussing female sex drive. Let's keep it that way, please. We don't need another thread jack on the horrors of swinging.


As well as I understand my wife's sex drive, and aside from something unexpected such as health/hormone issues, it is likely to stay high and solid. That is not without it's drawbacks, and for me, the primary one is knowing that I am largely an interchangeable piece of her sexuality. There is nothing inherently special about me in the bigger picture.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> As well as I understand my wife's sex drive, and aside from something unexpected such as health/hormone issues, it is likely to stay high and solid. That is not without it's drawbacks, and for me, the primary one is knowing that I am largely an interchangeable piece of her sexuality. There is nothing inherently special about me in the bigger picture.


I have a ton of respect for knowing that and not losing your mind. THAT is inherently special and amazing about you. *I* think more than you know. DH is the same in this regard, though it does not feel at all negative to him.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I am speaking as a MOD (much as I don’t wish to...)

Let’s try to stay on topic. Persistent thread jacking will result in post deletions or thread ban. 





NobodySpecial said:


> We were discussing female sex drive. Let's keep it that way, please. We don't need another thread jack on the horrors of swinging.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I like Wilson’s summary and am merely detailing it. 

Sex as a gift to a partner you love - is the ultimate gift. That said, there are a few key variants on this theme and boy are they different. 
1. Is the real deal, in this scenario engagement is high, your partner is clearly happily making you happy and they are not pretending to be any more turned on then they are. 
2. This is a counterfeit encounter. The wife puts on enough show so the man thinks his partner is turned on, orgasms, but both those things are untrue. This is tied for toxicity with (3). 
3. Under sufficient duress, the wife provides starfish sex. Her engagement level is basically zero, and is intended to convey her sincere wish to not be participating in this activity. 

That said, (1) works a LOT better if the wife isn’t in ‘all about you mode’, because you are bad in bed, but rather because she isn’t really feeling all that turned on. 





wilson said:


> Probably from LD's perspective, it is their partner who creates the sex drive within them. If the pattern is HD at the start and then zero-desire later, then they could legitimately say that their partner is creating the desire for sex within them. They may have no drive when they are not dating, so it's reasonable for them to assume it's up to their partner to create that desire. They may also think it's normal for desire to go to zero as the relationship progresses. That may be the reason they think there's something wrong with their partner for wanting sex all the time. Since normal people (relative to themselves) have diminished desire over time, then their partner must be a sex pervert for still wanting it several times a week.
> 
> I suppose we have to admit that both ways are normal since it happens so often. Wanting sex regularly or having a diminished drive as the relationship goes on are both common patterns we see often on TAM. The problem really is that these are incompatible patterns rather than one or the other pattern itself is wrong.
> 
> For the case where one spouse is LD, the way to work on the problem is to create a loving relationship where the LD spouse gives intimacy because they know it makes their partner happy. Even if they don't have the desire themselves, the happiness it brings their spouse means it makes them happy to give it. If the HD spouse makes the LD spouse feel deficient for not having a drive or not being passionate enough, that is likely going to be counterproductive. It's likely to make the LD person feel more resentful and start feeling sexual aversion.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I go by whatever the OP wants discussing:



NobodySpecial said:


> The experience of jealousy within swinging and polyamorous relationships.


Same rules apply to everyone, right?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

samyeagar said:


> As well as I understand my wife's sex drive, and aside from something unexpected such as health/hormone issues, it is likely to stay high and solid. That is not without it's drawbacks, and for me, the primary one is knowing that I am largely an interchangeable piece of her sexuality. There is nothing inherently special about me in the bigger picture.




I know _exactly_ what you are saying. I think after a while, I imagine you just begin viewing her sex drive as her 'feature'. Like laughing, eating or doing her hair a certain way. It doesn't mean sex is not special or unique for her, with you.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> I go by whatever the OP wants discussing:
> 
> 
> 
> Same rules apply to everyone, right?


Since the topic was female sexuality, I saw no problem with people exploring jealousy in that context.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Since the topic was female sexuality, I saw no problem with people exploring jealousy in that context.



Sure. I understand some questions are uncomfortable and noted your non-answer.
Jealousy is an important and useful mechanism. It’s not always based on paranoia (in the context of whatever context you prefer this time).


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> Sure. I understand some questions are uncomfortable and noted your non-answer.


You may have noticed my non-answer* to you*. I have answered that question and many more with honesty and not the slightest bit of discomfort on this board many, many times over the years. 

Moving right along.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You sure have.





NobodySpecial said:


> You may have noticed my non-answer* to you*. I have answered that question and many more with honesty and not the slightest bit of discomfort on this board many, many times over the years.
> 
> Moving right along.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> You may have noticed my non-answer* to you*. I have answered that question and many more with honesty and not the slightest bit of discomfort on this board many, many times over the years.



Yes, I think I remember now (vaguely).





NobodySpecial said:


> Moving right along.



Let’s.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> As well as I understand my wife's sex drive, and aside from something unexpected such as health/hormone issues, it is likely to stay high and solid. That is not without it's drawbacks, and for me, the primary one is knowing that I am largely an interchangeable piece of her sexuality. There is nothing inherently special about me in the bigger picture.


As sexual partners, we are all replaceable. Which is something that I'm okay with.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

What about the role of medication?

Reading this forum I am surprised at the numbers of people posting, who take medication and or have partners that do for things like depression or anxiety.

I imagine if my wife or I suffered from the likes of depression or anxiety, our sex life wouldn't be as good as it has been.


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