# Wife's constant rejection is her way of feeling wanted



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Help be understand this dynamic -

The other night I asked my wife to snuggle / spoon. I actually asked her the previous night because she seems to dislike last minute action. During the day she begins a familiar 'I'm feeling ill' thing which usually ends up with her falling asleep before I even get I bed - usually while getting the kids to sleep she takes that time to get in bed and be 3/4 asleep before I get there. So this night I remind her that she would spoon with me. Here's where it gets interesting. As expected she reluctantly moves over I my side still full dressed as half-a$$es 'spooning'. Usually I would ask her to spoon naked and she's reluctantly do it. Keep in mind there's never expectation of sex. This time however I kindly tell her - 'you know what, you're sick - that's ok, don't feel obligated'. She now protests and wants to continue albeit still dressed. I insist that she take it easy and just don't worry about it. I can tell she's surprised and taken back. Her body language is screaming that she wants to oblige me as now all of a sudden she is not tired and going me all sorts of opportunities to ask again to snuggle. Instead I don't I just watch tv and do my thing.

What this tells me is that is that she constantly wants to be in a position of rejecting me, she constantly wants to push me away to validate that I want her. It's pretty clear that of I don't respond to this dynamic of begging and pleading that suddenly she feels I don't need her. This is deranged and actually kind of mean to expect me to beg like a dog and put into a submissive position. Is this common? Do others feel this from their partners male of female? I'm seriously tired of not feeling wanted or needed - this kind of dynamic makes me feel like a piece of meat or some kind of utility who's job it is to merely provide and I don't think there's a single thing in the world I can do to change it because it's not my problem it's hers :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

i am not familiar with your whole back story, but do i understand you to say the only sex you can have is to slide up behind her while she is dressed and you try to cuddle her...and she does not even let you do this?

Uh, that is pretty screwed up. Why not pack her bags and tell her to get the hell out of your bedroom?


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I don't think it's common in that most people do not operate this way. But I don't think it's rare either.

I can see why this makes you feel rejected not desired.

What comes to mind is that your wife wants to be chased. I wonder if you can come up with ways to fill her need to be chased/pursued so that she then feels free to show her desire. Basically your wife wants you to seduce her.

Was she always like this? If now when did it change?

I think that the two of you would benefit from seeing a MC who is also as sex therapist. The two of you need to learn how to better interact about sex.

Issues with sex are usually a symptom of other problems in the relationship.

How old are the two of you?
How long have you been married?
Do you have children? If so how many and what are their ages?


How much time a week do you and your wife spend doing date-like things together, just the two of you?


----------



## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

KendalMintcake said:


> What this tells me is that is that she constantly wants to be in a position of rejecting me, she constantly wants to push me away to validate that I want her. It's pretty clear that of I don't respond to this dynamic of begging and pleading that suddenly she feels I don't need her.


Another possibility is that she is fixated on always having the moral high ground no matter what. When you want sex, she can claim to be "sick" and so she has a legitimate reason for rejecting you. When you tell her you understand and don't worry about it, she doesn't like to see you acting like the more reasonable partner, so she has to switch gears to get herself back in the moral driver's seat.


----------



## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

I cant really comment further, my wife would get away with that type of behavior maybe for a day or two, then I would just say "whaaaa?"

why do u put up with it


----------



## long_done (Jun 5, 2014)

murphy5 said:


> I cant really comment further, my wife would get away with that type of behavior maybe for a day or two, then I would just say "whaaaa?"
> 
> why do u put up with it


I get the sense that many spouses put up with it because they're the less powerful partner in the relationship, and are afraid to rock the boat.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

murphy5 said:


> i am not familiar with your whole back story, but do i understand you to say the only sex you can have is to slide up behind her while she is dressed and you try to cuddle her...and she does not even let you do this?
> 
> Uh, that is pretty screwed up. Why not pack her bags and tell her to get the hell out of your bedroom?


That's not what I'm saying - that night I just wanted to 'spoon' so-to-speak. See she normally doesn't even sleep under the same covers - claims they are too hot and so typically cocoons herself in a separate blanket on the very edge of the other side (which also makes me feel like a repulsive creep or something but that's my issue). So, I occasionally like to just feel the physical presence of her and sometimes suggest spooning. Sex usually involves me making some sort of plan ahead of time and even still it usually involves some form of reluctance. To illustrate, one time long ago we were having sex and she was umming and ahh'ing the while time. I politely suggested we just stop due to her not enjoying - I was very polite about it but it set off something really wild. She exploded as called me an f'ing a-hole and insisted I finish off. Worst sex ever - would have preferred putting my nuts in a vice !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Theseus said:


> Another possibility is that she is fixated on always having the moral high ground no matter what. When you want sex, she can claim to be "sick" and so she has a legitimate reason for rejecting you. When you tell her you understand and don't worry about it, she doesn't like to see you acting like the more reasonable partner, so she has to switch gears to get herself back in the moral driver's seat.


Part of it for sure is to have me looking like some type ethics offender - to still want her to oblige my desires despite her condition at the time. It's very difficult to entertain that when she's able to make it to exercize class the day of and day after being 'sick'. Last time it happened I said the next day 'are you sure you're well enough to go exercize'. She always knows what I'm implying but you got to understand her MO - she's perfected the art of the blind-face lie that everybody knows is a lie but accepts anyway. That's how she functions with her immediate family and that dynamic extends to me and the kids
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Is she this selfish in other aspects of her life?


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

It's a control issue. Read the last few pages of Boston's thread. MEM had an interesting post about his wife and acts of service. Basically she'll do all kinds of service acts, unless he asks for it. If he asks then she'll reject. I was thinking about that quite a bit. I see my wife doing the same thing with all kinds of things, not just sex. Although she does it with sex too. She acts just like you're describing your wife here. 

So this morning I was thinking about this and she came to me and offered to make me bacon and eggs. I decided to do a little test and said that would be great; can you make a cup of coffee too? And you know what? She said no. She doesn't make coffee. That's exactly what she said. We have a Kuerig brewer, couldn't be easier. But if I ask for an act of service she'll say no. The same way she'll reject me sexually even though we do it on a regular basis. All is fine unless I ask for it.


----------



## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

Kendal - quit asking. Flip the script on her. Put it to her so she has to turn it down not say yes. 

"Hun, can we snuggle naked tonight?" gives her a million ways to think of an excuse and the option to say no. 

"Hun, go upstairs get naked and get under the covers so we get some snuggle time in". She can only say no. 

If she does say no, shrug it off. Say "cool I'm going to play Xbox." Or whatever. 

Make it in your terms.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's a control issue. Read the last few pages of Boston's thread. MEM had an interesting post about his wife and acts of service. Basically she'll do all kinds of service acts, unless he asks for it. If he asks then she'll reject. I was thinking about that quite a bit. I see my wife doing the same thing with all kinds of things, not just sex. Although she does it with sex too. She acts just like you're describing your wife here.
> 
> So this morning I was thinking about this and she came to me and offered to make me bacon and eggs. I decided to do a little test and said that would be great; can you make a cup of coffee too? And you know what? She said no. She doesn't make coffee. That's exactly what she said. We have a Kuerig brewer, couldn't be easier. But if I ask for an act of service she'll say no. The same way she'll reject me sexually even though we do it on a regular basis. All is fine unless I ask for it.


I'm going to reluctantly raise my hand here and say I can now see how guilty I was of this behavior. HATED when my husband asked me to do something for him, and never really knew why. Now I understand it much better, and yes it's partially a control thing, but there are other issues at play, too. 

We fixed it: he no longer asks. He tells.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's a control issue. Read the last few pages of Boston's thread. MEM had an interesting post about his wife and acts of service. Basically she'll do all kinds of service acts, unless he asks for it. If he asks then she'll reject. I was thinking about that quite a bit. I see my wife doing the same thing with all kinds of things, not just sex. Although she does it with sex too. She acts just like you're describing your wife here.
> 
> So this morning I was thinking about this and she came to me and offered to make me bacon and eggs. I decided to do a little test and said that would be great; can you make a cup of coffee too? And you know what? She said no. She doesn't make coffee. That's exactly what she said. We have a Kuerig brewer, couldn't be easier. But if I ask for an act of service she'll say no. The same way she'll reject me sexually even though we do it on a regular basis. All is fine unless I ask for it.


My wife would not hesitate to make coffee for me in our keureg - that's an easy win. What she wouldn't do is make the bacon and eggs. In fact in 10+ years she's probably made a meal for me 10-20 times in total - no exaggeration. On the topic of control it is no doubt a control issue. Her MO goes like this, if it's easy, she'll do it, if it's difficult she expends more energy not doing it and making excuses. For example - she'll cook herself a meal at night, bring it to the bed so she can watch her favorite shows and then if I comment on what she's eating I usually get a response like 'I would have made you something but I wasn't sure if you ate before you left the office. It boils down to laziness and selfishness
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

That's not control its laziness. My point is that she'll make the coffee or the eggs or do the laundry or dishes or a hundred other things. But not if I ask.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> I'm going to reluctantly raise my hand here and say I can now see how guilty I was of this behavior. HATED when my husband asked me to do something for him, and never really knew why. Now I understand it much better, and yes it's partially a control thing, but there are other issues at play, too.
> 
> We fixed it: he no longer asks. He tells.


Really! What did you hate about it? I often think that some people are conversely matched with their partners. My wife is the type of assertive woman who would admittedly never in a million years be with a bigoted alpha male but sometimes I think maybe she'd respond to that type of treatment, just as it is strange the way women in relationships with meathead guys would be so better of with a caring guy but always gravitate to a-holes. I think my wife gravitates to caring men but really is more compatible with a jerk. She is combative at the drop of a hat so it seems she actually craves poor treatment sometimes. That's not who I am so I feel I'm in between a rock and a hard place ...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

U.E. McGill said:


> Kendal - quit asking. Flip the script on her. Put it to her so she has to turn it down not say yes.
> 
> "Hun, can we snuggle naked tonight?" gives her a million ways to think of an excuse and the option to say no.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_

That's hilarious although I do think she's welcome and 'command' if-you-will as am invitation to battle. Literally any observation of her behavior is taken as a critique. The other day for example I casually mentioned how fast her shower was - 'did you already shower?', 'yes', 'wow that was fast', 'and so what of it was?'. It's as though she is conversing with her mother as that is pretty much every conversation she has with her mother - a battle. 

I almost want to try out your suggestion just as a social experiment and report back - pretty sure she's likely to protest as she loves to 'refuse' as in 'I refuse to x and y' where x = anything I say


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I think you need to be more assertive, and less needy, and it'll likely do wonders. Do it long enough (and not be an a-hole about it) and she'll start coming to YOU for that sort of stuff.

I'm not saying neglect her, but as one poster above said, don't allow her to make excuses, only give her the "yes or no" option, and if it's "no", brush it off.

As it stands now, you're setting yourself up for disappointment every time by allowing her to make excuses.

Yes, she is selfish, yes she is lazy, and yes, she's a control freak (albeit in a rather strange way). Therefore, you need to learn to counter this and leave her wanting YOU, not the other way around. If you play your cards right, it'll turn her around faster than you'd think.

She's playing a game, and if you stop giving her a reason to play these games, she'll no longer be interested in them. Some people are simply like that - they get a tiny bit of pleasure from knowing THEY'RE in charge, even in small ways. She probably doesn't even realize what it's doing to you, or to the marriage.

And yes, you're probably right about her responding better to an alpha male type. So BE that guy, at least in whatever capacity you can.

A quick story - my ex wife despised guys who would stare at her, and often brought that up to anybody who would listen. It's like she had an agenda towards any guy who would check her out. This was at a time when she was slightly overweight, wore baggy clothing, generally didn't feel great about her body. Some years later, she started to get in shape, hit the gym, run, all of that. She started wearing increasingly skimpy or tight clothing, and this, of course, generated even more guys checking her out, often in front of me. Now, she didn't mind. She'd come home from the grocery store, or the gym, or wherever, and proudly tell me about the guy who tried to get her phone number, or the one who followed her around a store once, finally got enough courage to talk to her, and when told she was married said "your husband is a lucky man" or something to that effect.

What's the quote? "Thou dost protest too much"? Turns out she very much liked the attention, but only when she got to the point of positive body image. Your wife could feel the same way about alpha men. She professes to dislike them immensely, because the thought of being with one is too much for her - she wouldn't be in charge any more. The irony is that she'd probably be much happier if she wasn't in charge.

Ps. if anybody knows anything about dogs, wolves, coyotes, etc. where there's an alpha dynamic within the pack, you'll know that the alpha does not WANT to be the alpha. They'd much prefer to be in the middle of the hierarchy. There's less work and they're happier. True story.

Your wife is a reluctant alpha. She doesn't want to be there, but she can't help it. And you're not doing enough to dethrone her and become the alpha yourself. It's in a wolfs nature to fight for that status, even if they don't want it. She has no challenger to her status. So it's a daily grind of reminding you she's in charge, which gets boring quick.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

alexm said:


> I think you need to be more assertive, and less needy, and it'll likely do wonders. Do it long enough (and not be an a-hole about it) and she'll start coming to YOU for that sort of stuff.
> 
> I'm not saying neglect her, but as one poster above said, don't allow her to make excuses, only give her the "yes or no" option, and if it's "no", brush it off.
> 
> ...


My wife is so emphatic about everything that of this is the case then she must want a complete [email protected][email protected] thou does not protest, thou dost emphatically protest. I disagree about the wolf pack analogy as she does indeed want to be in charge just without any responsibility. As for what kind of man she really is compatible with, after all the analysis, the truth is none. She has admittedly said that herself as in 'I it wasn't for you I'd be single for the rest of my life'. That's a nice compliment but at the same time speaks volumes about her fitness as a parter. She hangs around other mostly other single women who are constantly trying to hook up with a life partner but for whatever reason just can't find a match. These are the types of women who seem condemned to a single life because they are just too different from the mold of the ideal mate - that is 'independent' opinionated women. The ironic thing is that I was attracted to this way back and now she has become totally dependent and I tend to think she despises me for making her this way. It's a 'tightrope spud'!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

U.E. McGill said:


> Kendal - quit asking. Flip the script on her. Put it to her so she has to turn it down not say yes.
> 
> "Hun, can we snuggle naked tonight?" gives her a million ways to think of an excuse and the option to say no.
> 
> ...


This was the train of thought I had too.

Based on what you wrote, she may want you to take control and tell her what's going to happen rather than asking. Playful command. And to state the obvious - respectfully backing-off if she doesn't go along with it as mentioned above.


----------



## Happyfamily (Apr 15, 2014)

KendalMintcake said:


> Help be understand this dynamic -
> 
> The other night I asked my wife to snuggle / spoon. I actually asked her the previous night because she seems to dislike last minute action. During the day she begins a familiar 'I'm feeling ill' thing which usually ends up with her falling asleep before I even get I bed - usually while getting the kids to sleep she takes that time to get in bed and be 3/4 asleep before I get there. So this night I remind her that she would spoon with me. Here's where it gets interesting. As expected she reluctantly moves over I my side still full dressed as half-a$$es 'spooning'. Usually I would ask her to spoon naked and she's reluctantly do it. Keep in mind there's never expectation of sex. This time however I kindly tell her - 'you know what, you're sick - that's ok, don't feel obligated'. She now protests and wants to continue albeit still dressed. I insist that she take it easy and just don't worry about it. I can tell she's surprised and taken back. Her body language is screaming that she wants to oblige me as now all of a sudden she is not tired and going me all sorts of opportunities to ask again to snuggle. Instead I don't I just watch tv and do my thing.
> 
> What this tells me is that is that she constantly wants to be in a position of rejecting me, she constantly wants to push me away to validate that I want her. It's pretty clear that of I don't respond to this dynamic of begging and pleading that suddenly she feels I don't need her. This is deranged and actually kind of mean to expect me to beg like a dog and put into a submissive position. Is this common?


Control freak.

The problem with this kind of person is that you are in a perpetual war. She denies you, so you make an appointment, so she gets "sick" so you say never mind, so she says okay, so you say no...

You can't "outsmart" someone who is at war with you. Even if it ends where she's trying to get you to spoon while you are watching TV - what kind of victory is that?

Her early family life trained her to be this kind of person and she's got way more experience than you do at this game. You have to confront the problem directly, and it may mean a counselor to act as an impartial referee. The fact you are asking a day before to get an appointment to snuggle with your wife... ludicrous.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Happyfamily said:


> Her early family life trained her to be this kind of person and she's got way more experience than you do at this game. You have to confront the problem directly, and it may mean a counselor to act as an impartial referee. The fact you are asking a day before to get an appointment to snuggle with your wife... ludicrous.


Interesting perspective. Good call.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You once wrote:



> I think she resents me for being pretty successful at work and providing her with luxuries such as a maid and not having to work. Yes I have discussed in depth - her answer is always that she is just not interested in sex. Have I manned up - yep - undoubtedly. Sometimes I think she is a lesbian...
> Posted via Mobile Device


Why go on and on with this woman?

Have you read neuklas's thread?


----------



## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

KendalMintcake said:


> she loves to 'refuse' as in 'I refuse to x and y' where x = anything I say


Keep in mind that this isn't a business competitor, a co-worker, a neighbor or a stranger on the street. This is your wife and someone who is supposed to be your life partner. 

Since you got married, I'm assuming you two were once on the same page at least for awhile. What changed in the meantime?


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

KendalMintcake said:


> She has admittedly said that herself as in 'I it wasn't for you I'd be single for the rest of my life'. That's a nice compliment but at the same time speaks volumes about her fitness as a parter.


My ex wife used to say the same thing. But she hasn't been single since she was 14, and I mean that literally. I discovered sometime after we were dating for a while that she had always overlapped boyfriends before me, and she overlapped her next one after me, as well. Both of them were definitely Alphas, even though she treated me similar to how yours treats you.

I'm telling you, man, my ex wife didn't want to be "in charge", but her personality drove her to be. She also, allegedly, didn't like Alpha males, though it's clear that's who she's happiest with and who are the best for her. I wasn't even a Beta, and it didn't work for us.

Some people talk a big game, but don't live it. And some people can't admit to themselves what they want/need/desire.


----------



## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

By not standing your ground, you allowed her to take control of those aspects of your marriage, she has lost respect for you. I am divorcing a similar personality. If you don't reclaim your boundries, you will be eventually doing the same.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Happyfamily said:


> Control freak.
> 
> The problem with this kind of person is that you are in a perpetual war. She denies you, so you make an appointment, so she gets "sick" so you say never mind, so she says okay, so you say no...
> 
> You can't "outsmart" someone who is at war with you. Even if it ends where she's trying to get you to spoon while you are watching TV - what kind of victory is that?


Pure selfishness is what it really is...

My ex liked to play these kind of games too. That's all it is. One poster mentioned it's because she wants to feel like she's being pursued. WTF.... she's MARRIED. The pursuit should of ended at "I do". Who wants to do this dog and pony show the rest of their lives? She's the one with the problem yet he suffers because of her unwillingness to change her crap attitude.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for romance and making the other person feel wanted but what does that do for the self esteem of your partner when you're CONSTANTLY rejecting them so you feel better about yourself? Disgusting selfishness. I'll never tolerate that crap ever again. She does it because she can get away with it. It's that simple. If my girlfriend ever starts pulling that crap then she can go pound sand. That's the only kind of reasoning these kind of people respond too.


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

KendalMintcake said:


> That's not what I'm saying - that night I just wanted to 'spoon' so-to-speak. See she normally doesn't even sleep under the same covers - claims they are too hot and so typically cocoons herself in a separate blanket on the very edge of the other side (which also makes me feel like a repulsive creep or something but that's my issue). So, I occasionally like to just feel the physical presence of her and sometimes suggest spooning. Sex usually involves me making some sort of plan ahead of time and even still it usually involves some form of reluctance. To illustrate, one time long ago we were having sex and she was umming and ahh'ing the while time. I politely suggested we just stop due to her not enjoying - I was very polite about it but it set off something really wild. She exploded as called me an f'ing a-hole and insisted I finish off. Worst sex ever - _would have preferred putting my nuts in a vice_ !
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


or a knothole in a fence!!

Seriously, the problem seems obviously more than sex. As everybody seems to be saying in agreement, it's a control thing. Why?
That is the $64.00 question. You allude to her battles with her mother.

As an aside, just to exclude sex as the issue, how often is the sex good. Does she enjoy it in her own way of denying things.
Is it just an act for her to play like she doesn't like sex, or does she really like it and fakes not liking it? How often?


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

KendalMintcake said:


> Really! What did you hate about it? I often think that some people are conversely matched with their partners. *My wife is the type of assertive woman who would admittedly never in a million years be with a bigoted alpha male* but sometimes I think maybe s*he'd respond to that type of treatment*, just as it is strange the way women in relationships with meathead guys would be so better of with a caring guy but always gravitate to a-holes. I think my wife* gravitates to caring men but really is more compatible with a jerk*. *She is combative at the drop of a hat so it seems she actually craves poor treatment sometimes.* That's not who I am so I feel I'm in between a rock and a hard place ...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, it's pretty complex to unpack (at least in my case), but some of the qualities you cite above about your wife are true of me. These are things women generally are conditioned to fear and dislike and deny about themselves (for good reason, when it comes to treatment we should accept from men in society at large), but that CAN be embraced with a man she trusts. 

So, my husband tended to be passive aggressive in his approach to me, since he was conflict avoidant and didn't like to make me mad. PA behavior is a huge turn off--seems weak and controlling ("beta," "Nice Guy"--call it what you will.) It led to me losing sexual attraction, which really sucks. So, I get conditioned to try to "read" into my husband's actions for what he *really* wants, since he habitually doesn't tell me what he really wants, or tries to do what he thinks I want. 

That leads to: Hmmmmm, my husband just asked me to make him a cup of coffee. I wonder what that *really* means? Why is he trying to manipulate me? He probably just is getting of on controlling me in little ways like this, since he is so obviously unhappy about not getting his way on bigger issues. Well screw him, he can make his own coffee until he learns to tell me what's really on his mind."

Yes, PA behavior comes across as VERY controlling, so yes, I would resist it. But sure I'd do nice things for him that *I* came up with, because I didn't resent the fact that he probably had an ulterior motive. I just met what I perceived to be his controlling behavior with more controlling behavior of my own. Sadly, I think a lot of couples operate like this. 

I think you are right about this sometimes being just a mismatch of personalities. It can be addressed, and you don't have to become someone you are not. It all hinges on both of you taking an honest look at your current dynamic and deciding together how to change it. You can't assign blame. It's hard work, but it can be done.


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

I don't want to be the one to point this out, but your are making her dislike you more everyday by your behavior. It's time to make her want you and quit asking for any kind sex. Quit falling for her "sick" excuse. Blow it off without a care and do you own thing. You are creating your own mess stop it now!


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

WoM,
Totally agree with your post below. That said, a few points of clarification. 

M2 has NEVER pulled that crap in the bedroom. 

And she's made a BIG effort to improve outside the bedroom. Mostly because I lightly tease her with things like:

If you felt moved to ..... that would be viewed as an act of kindness not subservience. 

Any resistance is met with a shrug and me doing whatever it was myself without further discussion. 

But then - that can work both ways: If I'm getting dysfunctional resistance to simple requests - my response when asked to respond in kind is some version of.

All requests must be submitted in writing. (It's a quote from the Willie Wonka movie). 

Really though - if M2 gets temporarily stuck in 'that bad place', I just stop asking her for stuff. 

Kendal doesn't seem to grasp that his W has this need to be the dominant spouse. And the way she asserts her dominance is by rejecting him. This dynamic is best corrected by being self sufficient and TOO BUSY taking care of yourself to perform the requests your spouse asks of you. 

Not angry. Not sulking. Genuinely self focused and happily self sufficient. 




WorkingOnMe said:


> It's a control issue. Read the last few pages of Boston's thread. MEM had an interesting post about his wife and acts of service. Basically she'll do all kinds of service acts, unless he asks for it. If he asks then she'll reject. I was thinking about that quite a bit. I see my wife doing the same thing with all kinds of things, not just sex. Although she does it with sex too. She acts just like you're describing your wife here.
> 
> So this morning I was thinking about this and she came to me and offered to make me bacon and eggs. I decided to do a little test and said that would be great; can you make a cup of coffee too? And you know what? She said no. She doesn't make coffee. That's exactly what she said. We have a Kuerig brewer, couldn't be easier. But if I ask for an act of service she'll say no. The same way she'll reject me sexually even though we do it on a regular basis. All is fine unless I ask for it.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Kendal doesn't seem to grasp that his W has this need to be the dominant spouse.


She might feel that need because she doesn't view OP as fit to be the dominant spouse. This doesn't mean its her preferred role in the marriage; in fact, it could be making her quite resentful. 

OP, your wife doesn't seem to trust you to tell her what you REALLY want. You're trying to guess what she wants and then give it to her. Stop that.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

U.E. McGill said:


> If she does say no, shrug it off. Say "cool I'm going to play Xbox." Or whatever.





MrBrains said:


> Blow it off without a care and do you own thing.





MEM11363 said:


> Any resistance is met with a shrug and me doing whatever it was myself without further discussion.


Maybe someone can clarify this for me... What exactly does shrug off sex mean? The man is horny and wants to get laid. There isn'r really a substitute for that unless he calls an escort. Does this mean he goes and takes a cold shower? He maybe takes care of himself (a poor substitute). I understand if she's geniunely sick or tired but from what the OP is saying this is a chronic problem and she's just doing it to f*** with him. So why should have to tolerate this??? "Shrugging it off" to me implies acceptance of her behavior. 

The "No More Mr. Nice Guy" approach seems to be this. You shrug it off, then you start to dressing nicer, start flirting with other women and eventually escalate it until she either caves or you're filing for divorce. Which comes across as just playing games with her like she is with me. Is that where we are going with this? Cause I'd rather just cut to the chase and tell her, "Either WE deal with this problem now or don't let the door hit you on the way out." and that way we both save each other a lot of time and effort.


----------



## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> Maybe someone can clarify this for me... What exactly does shrug off sex mean? The man is horny and wants to get laid. There isn'r really a substitute for that unless he calls an escort. Does this mean he goes and takes a cold shower? He maybe takes care of himself (a poor substitute). I understand if she's geniunely sick or tired but from what the OP is saying this is a chronic problem and she's just doing it to f*** with him. So why should have to tolerate this??? "Shrugging it off" to me implies acceptance of her behavior.


I agree. I had similar problems with my ex, she'd always find a reason to avoid doing exactly what the OP is asking his wife to do.

Trying reverse psychology here (in other words, fighting bull**** mind games with more bull**** mind games) might well backfire and he'll find himself entirely without affection from her. At which point I suppose we can look forward to the usual 'sexless marriage' thread. Trying to content yourself with porn/video games/whatever hobbies you have is just denial AND risking pushing yourselves further apart.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Amen to that. 

Let's be clear here - life is full of opportunities to demonstrate leadership. 
- Teaching the children stuff 
- Doing a home improvement 
- Getting the kids to participate in home improvement jobs to begin teaching them how to do stuff

Mostly - good leadership is unopposed. Meaning: If you have a good plan, the skills to execute it, and the clear determination to overcome obstacles - those around you will follow. 

Dominance - is only relevant during conflict. 

The thing about conflict is this: 
- If you're really good at it, it doesn't look like conflict. It looks like a playful strategy for getting to a good/great outcome. 
- If your not so good at it, it feels bad to you. It makes you tense, angry. To an outsider it looks painful for everyone involved. 
- If you suck at it, conflict turns into combat. The focus is no longer the plan, it's injuring one another. 

When Kendal figures out how to be playful while leading, most of this other stuff will go away. When he believes that his view of himself is more important than his wife's view of him - he will cut out all this approval seeking behavior. And when he does THAT, he will discover that his wife begins to seek HIS approval in and out of bed. 




GettingIt said:


> She might feel that need because she doesn't view OP as fit to be the dominant spouse. This doesn't mean its her preferred role in the marriage; in fact, it could be making her quite resentful.
> 
> OP, your wife doesn't seem to trust you to tell her what you REALLY want. You're trying to guess what she wants and then give it to her. Stop that.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Betrayed,
I guess you missed the part of my post where I said:

M2 NEVER pulls this crap in the bedroom. And the reason for that is just what you said. 

--------
That said this issue of being horny - nah. This ain't about THAT. This is about something else. A woman having sex with you - outside the realm of physical heroism (in war, saving someone from drowning) it's the ultimate validation of you as a man. So a rejection isn't an issue if being stuck feeling horny. If it's part of a pattern, it's emasculating. And THAT is some ugly stuff. 





BetrayedDad said:


> Maybe someone can clarify this for me... What exactly does shrug off sex mean? The man is horny and wants to get laid. There isn'r really a substitute for that unless he calls an escort. Does this mean he goes and takes a cold shower? He maybe takes care of himself (a poor substitute). I understand if she's geniunely sick or tired but from what the OP is saying this is a chronic problem and she's just doing it to f*** with him. So why should have to tolerate this??? "Shrugging it off" to me implies acceptance of her behavior.
> 
> The "No More Mr. Nice Guy" approach seems to be this. You shrug it off, then you start to dressing nicer, start flirting with other women and eventually escalate it until she either caves or you're filing for divorce. Which comes across as just playing games with her like she is with me. Is that where we are going with this? Cause I'd rather just cut to the chase and tell her, "Either WE deal with this problem now or don't let the door hit you on the way out." and that way we both save each other a lot of time and effort.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

long_done said:


> I get the sense that many spouses put up with it because they're the less powerful partner in the relationship, and are afraid to rock the boat.



Actually I feel it's the exact opposite. A less powerful spouse can play the sex card and get some notion of power and control...


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> Actually I feel it's the exact opposite. A less powerful spouse can play the sex card and get some notion of power and control...


The sex card will get ALL of the power and control in many cases. It makes a man feel like he's slaving for nothing.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
I think that is often the case. But a truly strong spouse who is getting shut down - gives their partner a little time to get it together and then begins to move on. In that situation the stronger spouse then officially pulls the plug when it is to their advantage to do so. 





john117 said:


> Actually I feel it's the exact opposite. A less powerful spouse can play the sex card and get some notion of power and control...


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

testpilot21 said:


> I agree. I had similar problems with my ex, she'd always find a reason to avoid doing exactly what the OP is asking his wife to do.
> 
> Trying reverse psychology here (in other words, fighting bull**** mind games with more bull**** mind games) might well backfire and he'll find himself entirely without affection from her. At which point I suppose we can look forward to the usual 'sexless marriage' thread. Trying to content yourself with porn/video games/whatever hobbies you have is just denial AND risking pushing yourselves further apart.


While fighting bull$hit with bull$hit may sound bad, most of us TAM'ers know that if you simply "recieve" it, and not defend yourself, that your status quo will continue to shrink.

So definately just "taking" it is not going to help you one bit. Instead of putting all your attention into her, try to find somethings you are passionate about that you can become extremely focused on and selfish into. It will maintain the attention balance, and give her something to worry about.

Also I found those who do that, if you go out alot, that will give them something to worry about and they won't be able to keep you off balance with what they are doing.

It's a tricky situation.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> I think that is often the case. But a truly strong spouse who is getting shut down - gives their partner a little time to get it together and then begins to move on. In that situation the stronger spouse then officially pulls the plug when it is to their advantage to do so.



Well, again, I'm playing devils advocate here... Intuitively in a fight or flee scenario which is the strongest, the one who stays and fights or the one who takes their marbles and runs?

I'm not talking who is the smartest . Oftentimes they're not one and the same.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
We aren't talking about an initial - intense emotional response. We are discussing a situation where over a period of time, the stronger spouse simply concludes they are better off without their partner. 

This isn't about a partner who 'can't', but rather a case of a partner who 'won't'. 





john117 said:


> Well, again, I'm playing devils advocate here... Intuitively in a fight or flee scenario which is the strongest, the one who stays and fights or the one who takes their marbles and runs?
> 
> I'm not talking who is the smartest . Oftentimes they're not one and the same.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm not sure I agree. Divorce, quitting, and many other radical forms of change require strength but so do the alternatives.

When I was in grad school I took a number of computer science classes - outside minor - and initially I had a devil of a time. Eventually I pulled thru and I actually quite enjoy it.

It's not the same being stuck in a bad marriage but I think it takes strength to deal with it and keep the family in one piece for the benefit if the children etc. 

It's like foreign affairs. If we nuke a country at the slightest provocation we can be perceived as strong but think of the leadership and strength one demonstrates by sticking with the program, Gandhi style.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> I'm not sure I agree. Divorce, quitting, and many other radical forms of change require strength but so do the alternatives.
> 
> When I was in grad school I took a number of computer science classes - outside minor - and initially I had a devil of a time. Eventually I pulled thru and I actually quite enjoy it.
> 
> ...


About how much perserverence it takes to execute a true 180. It takes a hell of alot of effort to get going, but once it has been going true for a while momemntum will carry it.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Taken literally that would make your personal plan: til death do you part.....

I didn't think that was the case.



QUOTE=john117;9217378]I'm not sure I agree. Divorce, quitting, and many other radical forms of change require strength but so do the alternatives.

When I was in grad school I took a number of computer science classes - outside minor - and initially I had a devil of a time. Eventually I pulled thru and I actually quite enjoy it.

It's not the same being stuck in a bad marriage but I think it takes strength to deal with it and keep the family in one piece for the benefit if the children etc. 

It's like foreign affairs. If we nuke a country at the slightest provocation we can be perceived as strong but think of the leadership and strength one demonstrates by sticking with the program, Gandhi style.[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Taken literally that would make your personal plan: til death do you part.....
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't think that was the case.



Nope - fed up does not mean strong and vice versa.

Everybody has a breaking point - walking out is an indicator of the breaking point, not their innate strength.

Strength is how one deals with adversities they usually have no choice over. Let's say X and Y are married and Y comes up with a chronic illness but not life threatening, say, wheelchair bound and X bails... Is that strength?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
Are you poking me? Seriously?

A few posts back I said 'won't', not 'can't'.

I like a healthy debate, but this doesn't feel like that. 


QUOTE=john117;9218994]Nope - fed up does not mean strong and vice versa.

Everybody has a breaking point - walking out is an indicator of the breaking point, not their innate strength.

Strength is how one deals with adversities they usually have no choice over. Let's say X and Y are married and Y comes up with a chronic illness but not life threatening, say, wheelchair bound and X bails... Is that strength?[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Does it make any difference if it's won't or can't ??

The result is what matters. If someone is convinced they can't (but technically they can, but won't)...

Honest debate here...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Nope - fed up does not mean strong and vice versa.
> 
> Everybody has a breaking point - walking out is an indicator of the breaking point, not their innate strength.
> 
> Strength is how one deals with adversities they usually have no choice over. Let's say X and Y are married and Y comes up with a chronic illness but not life threatening, say, wheelchair bound and X bails... Is that strength?


No, it's selfishness. It's very human, but it is still selfishness.

I hope this is not a private debate.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You used an example of someone in a wheel chair. It was your example. It was a clear case of can't. 

IMO can't is in a whole different boat than won't. 

I'm not being obtuse, I grasp that certain mental disorders make certain behaviors - very difficult. Maybe at the extreme end impossible. But for high functioning folks, if you watch them closely, you find that they are able to work around their issues to get results that are important to them. 

Boston's wife absolutely couldn't tolerate sleeping with him more than 10 or so times a year until she started thinking about B4. Suddenly her tolerance for sex increases 5 fold and her previously uncontrollable outbursts become much less frequent. 

Were there other factors? You betcha. But are those the real drivers of her behavior? I'm 90% certain they weren't. Boston could have made all those improvements and she would have been happier. But not more considerate of him. 

I set a high bar for can't. 



john117 said:


> Does it make any difference if it's won't or can't ??
> 
> The result is what matters. If someone is convinced they can't (but technically they can, but won't)...
> 
> Honest debate here...


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Since the overwhelming consensus here seems to be an instruction to tell my wife what I want and then if rejected casually go about business, I feel compelled to clarify something. That is that this is essentially what happened. I did not whimper and ask to snuggle, but rather assertively said 'how about tomorrow night after the kids go down we spoon!' Now, she knows when I say this I mean nothing more than snuggling. The usual routine involves some degree of resistance when it's time. That can mean hardly anything to sighs and other complaining with occasional hostility but usually I put up with it and entertain the performance. This time it was enough huffing and puffing that I just suddenly felt like 'f' it, if you don't want to, then just say it it. So really if anyone needs to express better she does - it's very clear what I want and additionally never involves manipulation towards sex - if I feel I want sex I enthusiastically tell her that I want is to enjoy some quality is time and usually throw in some humor or playfulness. 

The whole point of this post is that this time, letting her get what she was hinting at - ie, a break - I gladly gave it and the reaction was indeed strange - she clearly felt rejected even though I very nicely stated that she should relax because clearly she was not up to it. The fact that she was now providing all these opportunities show she was suddenly not tired etc highlighted the fact that I was being played in the same manner that she plays restaurant waiters who have forgotten her side of dressing. That is to admittedly 'make them feel stupid and humiliated'. She is the self professed queen of making people feel like $#!t. I've been advised in situations where someone has been an a-hole to 'just do what I do and make then feel humiated - I'm the master'. She is so good at it that I sometimes feel bad for the victim - some poor schmuck at a restaurant who forgot the salad dressing is embarrassingly reduced to a bumbling apologizing mess. I'm the last person in the world who should be at the receiving end of that especially after all the responsibilities I shoulder. And so, note that I did infact do what was suggested here - that is to state what I want then go about business if rejected. The point of this reply, to illustrate that doing so really exposed the real MO, to see how far I would go to demonstrate my allegiance. Not succumbing was a bit of a surprise ...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The post below - has greatly reduced my respect for you.

You sit by and watch your wife humiliate defenseless waiters for making an honest mistake. Where is your spine? 

You tell your wife nicely that if that happens again, you will apologize to the waiter for her rude behavior and ask for the check. And if she escalates, you simply won't take her out again. 

As for her hostility towards you - over affection. Dude your wife is testing you and you are failing miserably. If you stopped pushing the affection, she would come to you. Assuming you didn't spend the day kissing her azz.

Truly appalled. 





KendalMintcake said:


> Since the overwhelming consensus here seems to be an instruction to tell my wife what I want and then if rejected casually go about business, I feel compelled to clarify something. That is that this is essentially what happened. I did not whimper and ask to snuggle, but rather assertively said 'how about tomorrow night after the kids go down we spoon!' Now, she knows when I say this I mean nothing more than snuggling. The usual routine involves some degree of resistance when it's time. That can mean hardly anything to sighs and other complaining with occasional hostility but usually I put up with it and entertain the performance. This time it was enough huffing and puffing that I just suddenly felt like 'f' it, if you don't want to, then just say it it. So really if anyone needs to express better she does - it's very clear what I want and additionally never involves manipulation towards sex - if I feel I want sex I enthusiastically tell her that I want is to enjoy some quality is time and usually throw in some humor or playfulness.
> 
> The whole point of this post is that this time, letting her get what she was hinting at - ie, a break - I gladly gave it and the reaction was indeed strange - she clearly felt rejected even though I very nicely stated that she should relax because clearly she was not up to it. The fact that she was now providing all these opportunities show she was suddenly not tired etc highlighted the fact that I was being played in the same manner that she plays restaurant waiters who have forgotten her side of dressing. That is to admittedly 'make them feel stupid and humiliated'. She is the self professed queen of making people feel like $#!t. I've been advised in situations where someone has been an a-hole to 'just do what I do and make then feel humiated - I'm the master'. She is so good at it that I sometimes feel bad for the victim - some poor schmuck at a restaurant who forgot the salad dressing is embarrassingly reduced to a bumbling apologizing mess. I'm the last person in the world who should be at the receiving end of that especially after all the responsibilities I shoulder. And so, note that I did infact do what was suggested here - that is to state what I want then go about business if rejected. The point of this reply, to illustrate that doing so really exposed the real MO, to see how far I would go to demonstrate my allegiance. Not succumbing was a bit of a surprise ...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> The post below - has greatly reduced my respect for you.
> 
> You sit by and watch your wife humiliate defenseless waiters for making an honest mistake. Where is your spine?
> 
> ...


I'm appalled by your assumption that I just sit there - I used to be a waiter and stand up for them - thanks for your insight!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

When you want to spoon, why do you have to ask her 24 hours beforehand? Why do you even have to ask?

Do you call her out when she's rude?


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

soccermom2three said:


> When you want to spoon, why do you have to ask her 24 hours beforehand? Why do you even have to ask?
> 
> Do you call her out when she's rude?


You can read a post I made on Csa which explains it. Not a requirement at all just seems better and on that night kids were out of control and the next night was planned or us ... Etc
Etc
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

KendalMintcake said:


> I'm appalled by your assumption that I just sit there - I used to be a waiter and stand up for them - thanks for your insight!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


TAM used to be a great place to say what was on your mind without fear of judgement and other assumption-based critique but lately I'm noticing more judgmental posts - I personally don't care for an insinuation of being spineless especially considering that a post is merely a glimpse into another's life. I can't expect that just because I don't feel the need to belittle someone based off of a few paragraphs of their life that someone else won't either - never-the-less, that's a completely inappropriate thing to say in an environment that is supposed to foster mature discussion. Another point despite the shortcomings I've illustrated on my wife, I can say without a shadow of doubt that she is a wonderful soul who genuinely cares. She is unfortunately (as most of is are in some way) the bearer of some traumatic experiences as a child which manifest in her adult life and I'm here because I care and deal with frustrations of navigating her complex personality as I'm sure she is with mine. 

As for those who have taken the time to listen as offer advice I wish you the best of luck improving your marriage. I'm sorry for those who feel compelled to dish out judgments - actually I applaud you MEM for feeling that waiters should be defended - but let me also say, having been one of them for a good stretch, some waiters are d!c<#[email protected] and in some cases I've agreed with her, other times I haven't and let it be known as well as slipping a few extra tip after the drama. Later
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

KendalMintcake said:


> My wife would not hesitate to make coffee for me in our keureg - that's an easy win. What she wouldn't do is make the bacon and eggs. In fact in 10+ years she's probably made a meal for me 10-20 times in total - no exaggeration. On the topic of control it is no doubt a control issue. Her MO goes like this, if it's easy, she'll do it, if it's difficult she expends more energy not doing it and making excuses. For example - she'll cook herself a meal at night, bring it to the bed so she can watch her favorite shows and then if I comment on what she's eating I usually get a response like 'I would have made you something but I wasn't sure if you ate before you left the office. It boils down to laziness and selfishness
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ha! My wife is exactly the same! She will use any excuse to get out of doing something.
We have a parent/teacher meeting coming up...we have to book the appointments. She said she would send an email two nights ago..'I forgot. I'll do it tomorrow'....she forgot to do it then aswell because there was a good film on.
Ended up I did it. Probably exactly what she wanted...I should have left it but it needed doing.

Sex - wife used to reject me frequently and call me a pervert for wanting oral (which I have never got from her) etc. She thinks sex maybe 6 times a year (at most) = a good loving marriage.
I have given up. I have lost all interest in her and now reject her on the very odd ocassion she asks for sex. 
I simply don't want to have sex with her anymore. I would rather have a wank.

Thing is, it doesnt bother her a jot that I no longer want her. Just confirms how disinterested in sex she really is.

Sad woman. She could have had it so good.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

KendalMintcake said:


> TAM used to be a great place to say what was on your mind without fear of judgement and other assumption-based critique but lately I'm noticing more judgmental posts - I personally don't care for an insinuation of being spineless especially considering that a post is merely a glimpse into another's life. I can't expect that just because I don't feel the need to belittle someone based off of a few paragraphs of their life that someone else won't either - never-the-less, that's a completely inappropriate thing to say in an environment that is supposed to foster mature discussion. Another point despite the shortcomings I've illustrated on my wife, I can say without a shadow of doubt that she is a wonderful soul who genuinely cares. She is unfortunately (as most of is are in some way) the bearer of some traumatic experiences as a child which manifest in her adult life and I'm here because I care and deal with frustrations of navigating her complex personality as I'm sure she is with mine.
> 
> As for those who have taken the time to listen as offer advice I wish you the best of luck improving your marriage. I'm sorry for those who feel compelled to dish out judgments - actually I applaud you MEM for feeling that waiters should be defended - but let me also say, having been one of them for a good stretch, some waiters are d!c<#[email protected] and in some cases I've agreed with her, other times I haven't and let it be known as well as slipping a few extra tip after the drama. Later
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really think people are just trying to help you, KM. I know hearing someone outside's honest opinion can sting at first. But it truly is meant to get you going in a more productive direction. How about just taking a few days to really process what they are telling you?

Women often respond well to unselfish dominance and a man's security in himself, KM. I think that is all MEM and GettingIt are trying to say.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> You sit by and watch your wife humiliate defenseless waiters for making an honest mistake. Where is your spine?


Surprised? I'm not. The OP seems like a really nice guy and that's the problem. He's really beta and his wife is the alpha dog running the show. He needs to seriously "man up" and knock this woman down a few pegs off her high horse. I don't think passive aggressive "shrugging off" is going to resolve anything because she has already lost all respect for him. She's like a bully and the only way stop the bullying is a flat out in your face confrontation. She may act like a "strong indepedent type" but it's clear she's desperately yearning to be put in her place. It's gotten so bad she's verbally assaulting waiters probably secreting hoping one of them will tell her to go "f*** herself" because OP is too soft to do it himself.


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

"As for her hostility towards you - over affection. Dude your wife is testing you and you are failing miserably. If you stopped pushing the affection, she would come to you. Assuming you didn't spend the day kissing her azz."

I'm going to guess that with this particular wife, it's not that simple.
She sounds like a really hard case.
I'm betting she's learned this behavior from very early on and it's her way of maintaining control of the relationship, and she won't give up without a fight. Literally!


----------



## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> *It's a control issue*. Read the last few pages of Boston's thread. MEM had an interesting post about his wife and acts of service. Basically she'll do all kinds of service acts, unless he asks for it. If he asks then she'll reject. I was thinking about that quite a bit. I see my wife doing the same thing with all kinds of things, not just sex. Although she does it with sex too. She acts just like you're describing your wife here.
> 
> So this morning I was thinking about this and she came to me and offered to make me bacon and eggs. I decided to do a little test and said that would be great; can you make a cup of coffee too? And you know what? She said no. She doesn't make coffee. That's exactly what she said. We have a Kuerig brewer, couldn't be easier. But if I ask for an act of service she'll say no. The same way she'll reject me sexually even though we do it on a regular basis. All is fine unless I ask for it.


Agreed. Control issues, selfishness, withholding are generally a result of fear of intimacy. Underneath that are fears of abandonment and fear of worthlessness. When you said, "you're sick" you DW immediately reacted to try to close the emotional distance. You are triggering one another emotionally. Some IC probably is a good fit here for your DW, perhaps you too. Kindest Regards-


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

KMC,
Totally fair points. I apologize for my tone and 'shoot first and ask questions later' approach.

Based on your descriptions, I believe you could respond to your wife in a manner that has a more positive impact on her respect for you. 

Sounds like your wife is like the girl in the nursery rhyme: when she was good, she was very very good but when she was bad she was awful. 




KendalMintcake said:


> TAM used to be a great place to y what was on your mind without fear of judgement and other assumption-based critique but lately I'm noticing more judgmental posts - I personally don't care for an insinuation of being spineless especially considering that a post is merely a glimpse into another's life. I can't expect that just because I don't feel the need to belittle someone based off of a few paragraphs of their life that someone else won't either - never-the-less, that's a completely inappropriate thing to say in an environment that is supposed to foster mature discussion. Another point despite the shortcomings I've illustrated on my wife, I can say without a shadow of doubt that she is a wonderful soul who genuinely cares. She is unfortunately (as most of is are in some way) the bearer of some traumatic experiences as a child which manifest in her adult life and I'm here because I care and deal with frustrations of navigating her complex personality as I'm sure she is with mine.
> 
> As for those who have taken the time to listen as offer advice I wish you the best of luck improving your marriage. I'm sorry for those who feel compelled to dish out judgments - actually I applaud you MEM for feeling that waiters should be defended - but let me also say, having been one of them for a good stretch, some waiters are d!c<#[email protected] and in some cases I've agreed with her, other times I haven't and let it be known as well as slipping a few extra tip after the drama. Later
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## learning to love myself (Apr 18, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's a control issue. Read the last few pages of Boston's thread. MEM had an interesting post about his wife and acts of service. Basically she'll do all kinds of service acts, unless he asks for it. If he asks then she'll reject. I was thinking about that quite a bit. I see my wife doing the same thing with all kinds of things, not just sex. Although she does it with sex too. She acts just like you're describing your wife here.
> 
> So this morning I was thinking about this and she came to me and offered to make me bacon and eggs. I decided to do a little test and said that would be great; can you make a cup of coffee too? And you know what? She said no. She doesn't make coffee. That's exactly what she said. We have a Kuerig brewer, couldn't be easier. But if I ask for an act of service she'll say no. The same way she'll reject me sexually even though we do it on a regular basis. All is fine unless I ask for it.



I don't understand this way of thinking, The only way I would say "No" to my husband for things he was asking for, is if he was being an ass just before requesting something nice from me and he would know why I said No. 

I think you should give as good as you get, offer her a new dress and handbag then when she asks for the shoes tell her No.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> KMC,
> Totally fair points. I apologize for my tone and 'shoot first and ask questions later' approach.
> 
> Based on your descriptions, I believe you could respond to your wife in a manner that has a more positive impact on her respect for you.
> ...


No worries appreciate that. Yeah she comes with a sorts of baggage in particular some pretty horrific treatment from her mother as a child - stuff I would wish on my worst enemy. The bottom line is that I have to work for affection and sometimes it just completely sucks - there's this concept of unsolicited affection that I practically don't know - we can be in vacation and I'll watch couples where the woman is openly showing affection to her partner and I sometimes feel like it completely sucks watching this knowing that she never just offers up affection of any sort. Then if I act the same for a length of time on eventually made aware of how cold ice been. It's a tightrope spud!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Kendal - have just PM'd you but its not showing in my sent box. Please let me know if received. Thanks


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Pursuer - Distancer relationship dynamics.

Your wife is a CSA survivor if I remember correctly. Spooning may be horribly triggering for her. The whole thing about being in a different layer of bedding and cocooned on the far edge is an indication she has great difficulty with her body being touched or perhaps even being seen.


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Kendal;

Respectfully, there is still the question: 'do you think her behavior is exclusively a control issue, or is it an affection/sex avoidance technique?'

To understand further, do you think she has an affection/sex aversion do to past trauma and her game playing is a way of avoiding a painful past, or do you think she plays this game in other aspects (like making coffee)?

Depending on the answer, there are different approaches.

It definitely sounds like she could benefit from therapy, but my guess is she would avoid it because she is very proud and does not want to confront the issues.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Makes sense. 

You don't seem to be getting the results you want, so the question is are you willing to try a different approach. 





KendalMintcake said:


> No worries appreciate that. Yeah she comes with a sorts of baggage in particular some pretty horrific treatment from her mother as a child - stuff I would wish on my worst enemy. The bottom line is that I have to work for affection and sometimes it just completely sucks - there's this concept of unsolicited affection that I practically don't know - we can be in vacation and I'll watch couples where the woman is openly showing affection to her partner and I sometimes feel like it completely sucks watching this knowing that she never just offers up affection of any sort. Then if I act the same for a length of time on eventually made aware of how cold ice been. It's a tightrope spud!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

learning to love myself said:


> I don't understand this way of thinking, The only way I would say "No" to my husband for things he was asking for, is if he was being an ass just before requesting something nice from me and he would know why I said No.
> 
> I think you should give as good as you get, offer her a new dress and handbag then when she asks for the shoes tell her No.


Just as I would say to some of the women who post here about why their husbands don't respond to their efforts to spice things up I also would say I don't get it. There are plenty of posts here where women state that they go to lengths to excite their husbands by spontaneously wearing something provocative and complain the he just lays there and goes to sleep makes me want to chime in and say 'I don't get it what an a-hole'. If my wife did anything spontaneous I'd appreciate it more than winning the lottery. It's a strange world!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

askari said:


> Kendal - have just PM'd you but its not showing in my sent box. Please let me know if received. Thanks


I'll look once I get my pc back - it's been absconded by the kids as usual !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Thor said:


> Pursuer - Distancer relationship dynamics.
> 
> Your wife is a CSA survivor if I remember correctly. Spooning may be horribly triggering for her. The whole thing about being in a different layer of bedding and cocooned on the far edge is an indication she has great difficulty with her body being touched or perhaps even being seen.


My therapist told me exactly that. Apparently the technique is to give the distanced space. Problem is that you give then space and they just take the space...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

jorgegene said:


> Kendal;
> 
> Respectfully, there is still the question: 'do you think her behavior is exclusively a control issue, or is it an affection/sex avoidance technique?'
> 
> ...


As you can see from my previous post, I have been to therapy, as your guess is correct, she just lives for today and doesn't need therapy. As for which it is I'd say about 20% control, 80% affection avoidance. When I've brought it up the response is 'what are you a child who needs constant hugging and reinforcement - dang, I never knew I was with such a needy person' followed by the worlds greatest argumentative techniques. From there I'm expected to continue pursuing and being subjected to resistance and push back to prove my desire. She has absolutely no idea this is her modus operandi. She thinks, and is conditioned to believe this is normal operation - she is turning me into the Csa perpetrator every time. I read an article someone plopped into my Csa thread - it was a link to a TED talk about sex and was amazing how perfectly it explained her - that is that she operates on reverse (citing four steps to sexual satisfaction) whereby steps 3 and 4 precede 1 and 2. 1 and 2 are the mental lead up to sex followed by physical (step 3) then release (step 4). If I say to her 'give me 5 minutes to make you horny, if she agrees, I will pounce practically on her crotch (very nicely mind you) and within a couple of minutes she'll be ready to go. It's totally bizarre, crude and totally counter-intuitive. The mental part that precedes all this a. Never happens on it's own and b. Is totally rejected when suggested or triggered by me. So with that, yeah...um, therapy? You'd think with the amount of tv she watches and being a very intelligent person, you'd think it would at some point become pretty obvious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Makes sense.
> 
> You don't seem to be getting the results you want, so the question is are you willing to try a different approach.


I don't know I'm still thinking about that. Just the other night I thought maybe I should think about one of these '180s' or 'no more mr nice guy' programs but seems so contrived. For now I'm doing my own thing and giving the kids the attention they deserve, enjoy and return. I know thy the next wrk or so she'll likely continue to give little openings I can already see that she is sort of edging over closer as opposed to cocooning but I just don't feel like I want to entertain the game so give it a week and she'll likely blow up and accuse me of smothering the kids. At that point I'm likely to just say it like it is - they want it, express appreciation and they reciprocate. It sounds harsh but that's the only response she responds to - it just never comes from me, her sisters will set her straight in the blink of an eye when they (the sisters) play the jealousy game it's really only ever resolved by a battle royale. For now I'm just not interested in playing games :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Happyfamily (Apr 15, 2014)

What you have described is an emotional savage - they get their kicks out of putting other people down. 

You excuse way too much of it and really guilt-tripped people that tried to point it out. It isn't any surprise what a monster she is with wait staff, as you described it. Although you jumped all over them in claiming you objected to what you saw, it was presented as chronic behavior. 

That kind of thing is so appalling to me, similar to cruelty to animals - if they do it, it's not a person I want to be with. If it happened at all, it would never happen again or you are not the right person for me.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

KMC, you are normal! Your needs, desires, and values are all normal. You are not asking for anything unusual or unreasonable. Your confusion and frustrations are completely normal.

Normal doesn't work with your wife. You've proven it with years of real life marriage to her. She is not going to change without good therapy.

Either you can accept her as is or you can press her to seek therapy. Or both. You can modify some of your behaviors and expectations, plus you can press her to seek meaningful recovery from her trauma.

I can't snuggle with my wife. I can't kiss her. She'll hold hands but not with any enthusiasm. I don't like any of this but I can live with it. These aren't big issues in the big picture. Perhaps you can learn to live with some of your wife's peculiarities.

Bigger issues can be tackled once the little issues are let go.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Thor said:


> KMC, you are normal! Your needs, desires, and values are all normal. You are not asking for anything unusual or unreasonable. Your confusion and frustrations are completely normal.
> 
> Normal doesn't work with your wife. You've proven it with years of real life marriage to her. She is not going to change without good therapy.
> 
> ...


Thanks Thor, I know that I'm mostly normal maybe with a few problems but it's always nice to hear someone reminding you that you are not the wacko. As for what I can live with, as mentioned,, the TED talk I watched was really quite accurate in explaining my wife's sexual and emotional dynamic - I suppose I could handle it if I just got over the fact that I won't probably ever get unsolicited affection. I couldn't handle it if I knew every tim she was faking it so it's a crumb of hope to know that she does indeed enjoy and need sex despite what she wants to think. It's a shame for her to not be able to express herself especially considering how masterfully she can express disappointment. It's hard to imagine how she would be had she not have endured all the bs she did as a kid - she's be a lot more fun and she'd be a lot more content in her own skin. Unfortunately, I think due to the emotional abide from her mother and Csa abuse by whoever that person was, there's a huge amount of self loathing that is funneled into making me the bad guy. However, if / when I can put that aside, there is a silver l lining, it's just not going to appear miraculously, it needs to be conjured by none other than yours truly ...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

KendalMintcake said:


> I'll look once I get my pc back - it's been absconded by the kids as usual !
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Replied - tks !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CluelessWif (Jun 20, 2014)

I don't know your backstory, so I am just spitballing here, but is there any way that she just doesn't like to cuddle? I am that way, so when my husband and I go to bed I will put one of my legs over his for contact, mainly because his body temperature is as hot as the sun and I can't sleep.

Have you tried asking why she does this?


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I love this song. "God-Shaped Hole" by Chuck Cannon.

Chuck Cannon Songs | ReverbNation

I tried to fix you with forgiveness
I tried to heal your heart with love
I tried to sweeten up your bitterness
But I could never do enough
The place inside of you that's broken
Goes all the way down to your soul
And I'm a fool for ever hopin'
That I could fill a God-shaped hole

I can't roll the stone away
And this ain't no resurrection day
I'm not a saint and life ain't fair
But this just ain't my cross to bear
And I can see, it's time for me
To set a slightly lower goal
'Cause I can't fill a God-shaped hole.

And I've been tryin'to be your savior
And I've been feelin'crucified
I did not ever want to wait
Or cry these tears that I have cried
I need a better way to love you
I need to play a different role
'Cause after all, I'm only human
And I can't fill a God-shaped hole

And I can't roll the stone away
And this ain't no resurrection day
I'm not a saint, I don't have a prayer
This just ain't my cross to bear
So I can see, it's time for me
To set a slightly lower goal
'Cause I can't fill a God-sized hole.
No, I can't fill a God-shaped hole
---


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Thor said:


> I love this song. "God-Shaped Hole" by Chuck Cannon.
> 
> Chuck Cannon Songs | ReverbNation
> 
> ...


That's right on the nose. Going to have to listen to that one. It's interesting how song lyrics appeal to you at different times. A whole back when I was really po'd I identified with a song called 'crooked teeth' (by DCFC) whereby he described a relationship made from 'rotten wood that decayed from the start'
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

seyqaer said:


> Why not pack her bags and tell her to get the hell out of your bedroom?


First reason is the kids. I'm more inclined right now to go about business without showing the slightest interest in getting any affection from her. I've done it before and it usually culminates to her throwing a huge fit and demanding why I'm being so cold. This time I feel like doing the same thing but being nice - as though affection just no longer matters as opposed to the old technique of doing it and being a little mean at the same time. I am purely interested - some may say that this is childish but honestly I am very intrigued at this point. I've pretty much lost all desire for her since the last time I was shut down so now I just want to see whether she likes what she is asking for - that is or me to back off ...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

seyqaer said:


> Why not pack her bags and tell her to get the hell out of your bedroom?


They say it is nearly impossible to break up a relationship with someone you like. Of all the men I know who are married to CSA survivors, all of them like their wife very much in a lot of ways. But there is also a large disconnect or dysfunction related to the long term side effects of the CSA. These side effects are due to the vile actions of someone else against her as an innocent child.

Overall these women are good people, good mothers, and good spouses.

It makes it exceedingly difficult to leave them.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

KendalMintcake said:


> I'm more inclined right now to go about business without showing the slightest interest in getting any affection from her.
> .
> .
> .
> ...


At first she'll be content. The pressure will be off. Then she'll get worried that maybe you're looking elsewhere. She'll try to make some contact with you to measure your interest or commitment to her. This contact could be a conversation rather than turning on the tv, it could be suggesting you two go to a movie together, it could be her initiating sex. Then she'll feel secure and will be content again with the distance for a while.

If you play it just right you will create the right amount of distance which she finds comfortable. She'll be quite content, and quite clueless. You'll be wondering how she can *not* know how unhappy you are. You'll be angry that she is not interested in being with you or doing things with you. You'll be constantly frustrated by those little reminders of her emotional issues, like the pillows between you in bed or the way she'll go lock herself in the bathroom to change her shirt.

Your experiment is worth running. It will give you information confirming what you already know: she has a very different model of what an intimate relationship is, and she has a need for distance.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Put enough distance in the relationship and eventually distance becomes the new normal...

A lot of behaviors are discrete and can't be gradually adjusted, i.e. dressing in the bathroom... Or piling of pillows.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

john117 said:


> Put enough distance in the relationship and eventually distance becomes the new normal...


Exactly. She has one comfort zone, KMC has a very different comfort zone. He can try to conform his behavior to her zone, but he won't be happy there. She will like the distance.




john117 said:


> A lot of behaviors are discrete and can't be gradually adjusted, i.e. dressing in the bathroom... Or piling of pillows.


It takes therapy to get over the underlying emotional issues driving these behaviors.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Thor said:


> They say it is nearly impossible to break up a relationship with someone you like. Of all the men I know who are married to CSA survivors, all of them like their wife very much in a lot of ways. But there is also a large disconnect or dysfunction related to the long term side effects of the CSA. These side effects are due to the vile actions of someone else against her as an innocent child.
> 
> Overall these women are good people, good mothers, and good spouses.
> 
> It makes it exceedingly difficult to leave them.


Tats what I've been saying - there are many real reasoning qualities about her and it's amazing how any people a Csa perpetrator screws over. This pervert my only messed up my wife directly but others starting with her immediate family, me and my kids. Makes me want to go back in time and do something drastic to the perpetrator. Then you start to think that perpetrator was likely a victim and so you'd end up continuously going back in time to locate the very first perpetrator - who is probably a monkey or cave man. It's a situation that only the devil could design - it's absolutely the most twisted evil thing ever. If I think about it too much it's mind boggling how such a trap could be designed. It's impossible to escape and completely sucks !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

OP your story really hits home with me. My wife displayed basically the same behavior as yours.

My wife had all the excuses, like yours. too tired, stomach aches, headaches, getting up ealry to go to the gym, you name it. it seemed all she ever wanted to do is lay in bed and, in her words, "just lay next to each other tonight".

on the outside looking in, we were the perfect couple. married in our mid 20's, both stable good jobs, had money to do what we wanted, two nice sons, a picture perfect life.

on the inside however, my wife was a control freak like yours. looking back now, i see this was learned from her mother, being the passive aggressive, controlling and totally self righteous type.

our sex life dwindled away, to the point where i didnt care anymore. I buried myself in work and hobbies to cope, and she took on an even more selfish and entitled behaviour. Berating me for stupid things like how i loaded the dishwasher or didnt make scrambled eggs correctly.

It all came crashing down after i caught her having an affair after 15 years of marriage. it had been going on for about a year before i figured it out. I made many mistakes in how i handled that situation, but have learned much and in the end divorced her for her poor treatment of me, more so than the affair.

the point is, your story is very akin to mine, just in the earlier stages. I cant predict the future and tell you this is the road you are on, i just wanted you to know these are they type of things that happen when you become complaicent, stop caring, and just hope that things will change and maybe this is something you will get past.

you wont. not without serious help, on her part and yours. you can waste many years of your life now by not addressing this or you can make a serious effort and maybe something will be different. where i went wrong, looking back after what i know now, is i put up with this ****ty behavior towards me for way to long and didnt even recognize how bad things REALLY were.

my advice is dont walk on egg shells anymore around this or any other issue with your wife. tackle them head on. if she is resistant to change or not open to your ideas and opinions than leave the marriage. otherwise you will find yourself in a worse position 5-10 years from now.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is a very common sequence. 

And it's not limited to CSA survivors. It goes like this:
- I'm entitled to be selfish, controlling and critical because (fill in the blank, but the truth is the WHY doesn't matter)
- I'm NOT going to MC, or if I do I will only stay of the MC tells us that I'm not the problem, you are.
- I'm selfish in and out of bed, deal with it.
- Of course I had an affair, you don't pay any attention to me anymore.

But by the time the affair happens, the selfish spouse is so accustomed to not taking responsibility for their own behavior, they Blameshift the affair and typically lack real remorse. 






x598 said:


> OP your story really hits home with me. My wife displayed basically the same behavior as yours.
> 
> My wife had all the excuses, like yours. too tired, stomach aches, headaches, getting up ealry to go to the gym, you name it. it seemed all she ever wanted to do is lay in bed and, in her words, "just lay next to each other tonight".
> 
> ...


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

x598 said:


> OP your story really hits home with me. My wife displayed basically the same behavior as yours.
> 
> My wife had all the excuses, like yours. too tired, stomach aches, headaches, getting up ealry to go to the gym, you name it. it seemed all she ever wanted to do is lay in bed and, in her words, "just lay next to each other tonight".
> 
> ...


Thank you so very much for your story - there are things I've been through that I hope I can help others avoid from stupid mistakes so this is very much appreciated. I certainly don't intend to continue this way and in many ways very steadfast in my personal objectives and this isn't any different - I happen to be an extremely patient person which some mistake for complacency but I can attempt that patience and resolve gets results. The interesting thing about my wife is that she has admitted several times 'I it wasn't or you I know I'd be single my whole life' - I trust my gut that that she has no interest in extramarital activities - at least at the current time that's not to say she could cross paths with the wrong person anytime but as of now I highly doubt it's part of her agenda...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> This is a very common sequence.
> 
> And it's not limited to CSA survivors. It goes like this:
> - I'm entitled to be selfish, controlling and critical because (fill in the blank, but the truth is the WHY doesn't matter)
> ...


Well, when you've mastered the bold-faced lie and have become so good at blame shifting one can make a pretty good guess at what may unfold. The person has to be motivated though, she is totally unmotivated. There was a time about 10 years ago that I thought something was going on with a coworker - I knew this guy was in love with her and invitee her to drinks one night. When she left I could read the guilt - she is very see-through and surely enough a couple years later this guy divorced his wife and admitted he was in love with her - she read me the email infact. She was kind of disgusted and nearly went around to find him and confront. It was as though I knew it before she really knew it. Who knows there may have been a kiss or something but sex, i don't think so - this is all just gut but what I do know is it's best to go in gut. I can't assume and I don't know the facts. Now we have kids and can't imagine any need to go out and find someone nicer and more successful - I do ok and have a pretty good business built up over 10 years so there's many factors here. Still this is good to know - don't want to be totally naive
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Quick update - a week into the experiment of the 'nice abstinent guy'. Miraculously she made dinner this week on Friday and brought a cup of joe to me this am. It's a bit odd behavior - usually it's up to me to feed myself...hmmm...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

KendalMintcake said:


> Quick update - a week into the experiment of the 'nice abstinent guy'. Miraculously she made dinner this week on Friday and brought a cup of joe to me this am. It's a bit odd behavior - usually it's up to me to feed myself...hmmm...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Oh brother. How easy are you? One dinner and a cup of coffee and you're trying to figure out what it means....


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

KMC,

When you're wife gets angry at you for being cold, have you ever just shrugged and said: 

I'm here. If you want me, come and get me. I won't reject you, that's cruel, and we both know I'm not cruel. 

------
At some point, when you've experienced enough pain, you will tell her that she can either learn how to cue you when she wants affection and/or sex, or she can learn how to accept your advances. 

This whole game of: constantly chase me, and I'll mostly reject you is simply a direct transfer of self esteem, from the chaser to the rejector. Kind of toxic.








KendalMintcake said:


> Well, when you've mastered the bold-faced lie and have become so good at blame shifting one can make a pretty good guess at what may unfold. The person has to be motivated though, she is totally unmotivated. There was a time about 10 years ago that I thought something was going on with a coworker - I knew this guy was in love with her and invitee her to drinks one night. When she left I could read the guilt - she is very see-through and surely enough a couple years later this guy divorced his wife and admitted he was in love with her - she read me the email infact. She was kind of disgusted and nearly went around to find him and confront. It was as though I knew it before she really knew it. Who knows there may have been a kiss or something but sex, i don't think so - this is all just gut but what I do know is it's best to go in gut. I can't assume and I don't know the facts. Now we have kids and can't imagine any need to go out and find someone nicer and more successful - I do ok and have a pretty good business built up over 10 years so there's many factors here. Still this is good to know - don't want to be totally naive
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

KendalMintcake said:


> Quick update - a week into the experiment of the 'nice abstinent guy'. Miraculously she made dinner this week on Friday and brought a cup of joe to me this am. It's a bit odd behavior - usually it's up to me to feed myself...hmmm...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I once read about a female executive with young kids who went to a formal steak dinner with her mostly male colleagues. Once the steaks were delivered by the waitstaff, she proceeded to cut the steak of her fellow executive next to her in small bite sized chunks before realizing what she was doing...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> I once read about a female executive with young kids who went to a formal steak dinner with her mostly male colleagues. Once the steaks were delivered by the waitstaff, she proceeded to cut the steak of her fellow executive next to her in small bite sized chunks before realizing what she was doing...


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> KMC,
> 
> When you're wife gets angry at you for being cold, have you ever just shrugged and said:
> 
> ...


I'm not so great at thinking on my feet like that - however, the last time something like that happened I said 'I find it interesting that you can tell me that you are worried about my happiness and then take away the one thing guaranteed to make a man happy' - her response 'well it goes both ways' - last I remember I've provided a pretty nice environment with little obligation or responsibility. Remember I am dealing with the master of arguments !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Kendall, have you tried Active Listening? Do you know what it is?


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

jld said:


> Kendall, have you tried Active Listening? Do you know what it is?


No and no
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Active listening is basically just repeating back to your partner what she has said, or paraphrasing it. It assures her that you are hearing her. If done sincerely, with a desire to understand her, it should make her feel listened to and respected. If she feels listened to and respected, she will likely want to share more of what she is feeling with you.

Active listening is a way of finding out what is in her heart, namely her deep fears and other intense feelings. With this knowledge, you will be better able to solve conflict, because you will know what is actually causing the conflict.

Active listening is used extensively in counseling. You can learn it here for free.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

KMC, do you want the physical sex or do you want intimacy? You can get sex many places other than your wife. Is sex the one thing she denies you which you need? If so you could go get it elsewhere. Just tell her this is your plan.

If what you need is intimacy, that is a whole different thing altogether. You may convince her to give you regular sex, but if she is giving you "ceiling inspector" sex it won't have any intimacy value at all. Empty sex is worse than no sex imho.

I think you are hitting her with a cattle prod in a very sensitive area when you complain that she is withholding sex, and sex is the one thing which makes you happy. She's a sex abuse survivor!


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Thor said:


> KMC, do you want the physical sex or do you want intimacy? You can get sex many places other than your wife. Is sex the one thing she denies you which you need? If so you could go get it elsewhere. Just tell her this is your plan.
> 
> If what you need is intimacy, that is a whole different thing altogether. You may convince her to give you regular sex, but if she is giving you "ceiling inspector" sex it won't have any intimacy value at all. Empty sex is worse than no sex imho.
> 
> I think you are hitting her with a cattle prod in a very sensitive area when you complain that she is withholding sex, and sex is the one thing which makes you happy. She's a sex abuse survivor!


Definitely intimacy. I know I can get sex if I make it known. In the rare instances where there is real intimacy it is amazing - like mins blowing - for both of us. On one anniversary she went all out and later said 'thank you for the best night of my life'. After I wonder 'don't you remember how mug you enjoyed the best night of your life'. So confusing ...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Latest update, now he has (the last toe nights) ditched her cocooning blanket and sleeping under the main cover and not against the side but in the middle. Just say it already !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

KendalMintcake said:


> Definitely intimacy. I know I can get sex if I make it known. In the rare instances where there is real intimacy it is amazing - like mins blowing - for both of us. On one anniversary she went all out and later said 'thank you for the best night of my life'. After I wonder 'don't you remember how mug you enjoyed the best night of your life'. So confusing ...


On the rare occasions in the latter half of my relationship, when my ex and I actually had sex, she always said how much she enjoyed it and that she dreamed about us having sex for several nights afterwards.

...and yet it was once every six months if I was lucky, sometimes.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

testpilot21 said:


> On the rare occasions in the latter half of my relationship, when my ex and I actually had sex, she always said how much she enjoyed it and that she dreamed about us having sex for several nights afterwards.
> 
> ...and yet it was once every six months if I was lucky, sometimes.


So you are as confused as I am, or at least was until someone posted this - http://youtu.be/Ep2MAx95m20 - note the part about the 4 stages. Here the presenter points out tat for some the first 2 stages of sex (the mental ones) come after the physical so you probably also had a wife who doesn't get the erotic thoughts until after something physical happens. Imagine yourself in those shoes, never having a spontaneous sexual urge unless someone grabs your dude and jacks you off then later you think, wow that was great. Unfortunately the majority of us think, 'would it be great if...' And that becomes the impetus to act. I now understand why my wife will never act I a sexual thought and it's because she simply doesn't have them. Kind f makes sense especially considering as a child it was forced upon her. Even still, understanding it still makes it incredibly frustrating ...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Here we are in week 2 of 'no more mr I'm going to let you reject me guy' . She is still using the main sheet at night - seems to be waiting for me to make a move but that's not happening. I think it's turning to a bit of despair. I'm still being nice and cordial and not being a jerk about anything - it's as though my sex drive vanished over-night - in a way it did. The more interesting thing is what's happening to me. I am beginning to see our relationship as one where I live as a single father with a helper here who just happens to shack up in my bed at night. She seems to be less motivated to anything other than make her coffee and watch tv and that is very unattractive and so a vicious cycle is created whereby the less I play her game the less I am interested in her...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Yup. Pursuer/Distancer relationship. You give her distance and she's content with it. She doesn't desire a normal intimate or romantic relationship with you, but she may become distressed when she detects you aren't showing that interest in her. If she doesn't see any signs of you having an affair she will lose her distress and just figure the new normal is fine.


----------



## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

KendalMintcake said:


> My wife would not hesitate to make coffee for me in our keureg - that's an easy win. What she wouldn't do is make the bacon and eggs. In fact in 10+ years she's probably made a meal for me 10-20 times in total - no exaggeration. On the topic of control it is no doubt a control issue. Her MO goes like this, if it's easy, she'll do it, if it's difficult she expends more energy not doing it and making excuses. For example - she'll cook herself a meal at night, bring it to the bed so she can watch her favorite shows and then if I comment on what she's eating I usually get a response like 'I would have made you something but I wasn't sure if you ate before you left the office. It boils down to laziness and selfishness
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 When my first wife and I were getting a divorce, the day I found out she filed, she told me "I filed for divorce today and from now on, you make your own meals, do your own laundry and clean up after yourself".

Truth be told, she beat me to the punch on the divorce because I was ready to file also but, when she told me all of that, I said "OK, no problem". 

I cooked my own meals, did my laundry and cleaned up after myself. She thought I would starve to death, go to work with dirty clothes and for some reason didn't think that I knew how to push the button on the dish washer of use a sink to wash a dish. 

This didn't go over well with her because she knew that I could be a functional human being with out her so she starts screaming about her no getting any sex. (She was border line nympho) and when she told me that as long as were living under the same roof, I WILL PERFORM MY HUSBANDLY DUTIES!!!.

I told her that her attitude and bad manners are the biggest turn off and I have no desire to have sex with her, she went nuts.

She lost all control and things got real bad but the point is that I wasn't about to be bullied or was I going to grovel and give her the ego boost she needed. 

Make your own breakfast and coffee. Let her know in other ways that you could get along fine without her and maybe she'll finally get the idea that she might be the queen bee but your also the king bee and can get along fine without losing dignity or self respect.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

6301 said:


> When my first wife and I were getting a divorce, the day I found out she filed, she told me "I filed for divorce today and from now on, you make your own meals, do your own laundry and clean up after yourself".
> 
> Truth be told, she beat me to the punch on the divorce because I was ready to file also but, when she told me all of that, I said "OK, no problem".
> 
> ...


She might as well say play my game or else. That's ridiculous - not so much like that here as I'm expected to make my own dinner anyway - each my clothes, iron them etc. her duties are to feed the kids and take care of them. Her good friend one day said 'I'm a mom, my job is to take care of the kids and that's it'. That was said in a declarative way as if to say anything else is an injustice - crazy what some spouses think - I imagine if I were a stay-at-home dad I'd feel horrible not having a dinner ready by the time she got back from work - to each his / her own ...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Latest news - she's now sleeping with while hugging a pillow - this is kinda sad to watch - it's as though she's trying to send a message that she wants attention. What's crazy is that I feel bad in a way for many reasons - firstly that she can't just say it already that is that she wants affection and secondly that it just looks sad, thirdly I wonder how can you not feel the same when you know I need affection. I'm dealing with a severely emotionally stunted person. On one hand I feel I should do the noble thing and be kind, but on the other hand I know it comes with little appreciation - at least little shown / demonstrated appreciation. If I go ahead and entertain this and be a nice guy some point down the road I know I can expect a nice card during some solicited holiday but that's not what I feel is real matured expression. It feels like high school. Holy moly !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

I wonder if she realizes she's now experiencing what she was quite happily putting you through? 

I know it's hard for you to look at her unhappy like that. Don't give in. There must be a stage she'll get to when the light will go on in her head.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

testpilot21 said:


> I wonder if she realizes she's now experiencing what she was quite happily putting you through?
> 
> I know it's hard for you to look at her unhappy like that. Don't give in. There must be a stage she'll get to when the light will go on in her head.


I'm sure she does and it's hard for her to be pissed especially when I bring her a cup of coffee in the morning. I'm going about this as though I'm completely satisfied not touching. She just mentioned 'oh it's our anniversary soon' hinting at our usual getaway which a couple years back was mind-blowing and the source of my sited quote several posts above 'the best night of her life'. So, I'm enthusiastic that's something logical is computing upstairs but also irritated that this is a plea for me to do all the work and probably also have to engage in 'the game'. I can even straight out say - 'let's plan a romantic night and I want you to initiate'. The last time I said that (it was a time when we were using condoms) she came into the room and literally tossed a condom on my side of the bed. That was an instant turn off. In retrospect, I should have just done nothing, or at least call her on it. Man women can really abide their sexual privilege to the nth degree. I think for our anniversary I'm going to simply out it out there - I want my mind blown and then print out a picture of princess Leah in jabbah-the-hut's lair !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

What does your wife get out of sex? Do you think she desires sex for the same reasons you do? Do you think she misses sex for the same reasons you miss it? Do you think she puts the same value and meaning on sex that you do?


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Thor said:


> What does your wife get out of sex? Do you think she desires sex for the same reasons you do? Do you think she misses sex for the same reasons you miss it? Do you think she puts the same value and meaning on sex that you do?


Despite the fact that she has told me she never thinks about it and that if it weren't for my efforts it would probably never happen I believe she enjoys it for both the physical and emotional bonds. I once saw an article left on her computer screen called seething like 'the power of intimate sex' it explained how a woman can get the most from sex. I so believe she enjoys it because people are supposed to. During sex she tends to drift off most times and seems to go into a trancelike state which is interesting because I read that article and it mentioned techniques of a meditative method of being very calm and focusing on the whole body. Now that I think about it perhaps it's a good thing to know and in retrospect anytime we have had good fun she insists on setting the mood and getting all sorts of tantric items to accompany - hmmm
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Be cautious about that drifting off stuff. It could be dissociation from her sex abuse.


----------



## SevenYears (Jun 23, 2014)

I agree that something has to be done. I think your going to give in soon and be back where you were before with her rejecting you most of the time.

The problem with your relationship seems to be that your the only one taking part in it. She gets everything she wants and you get nothing most of the time. And when she does relent its like its a chore to her.

I know it will sound harsh but she doesn't seem to care at all about your feelings. You mentioned that when you talked about it with her she said you were a child for complaining. But if she doesn't get what she wants she complains. The only one that matters to her in the relationship is her.

Maybe it is because of what happened when she was a child. But she's going to have to go to MC or IC. Otherwise you'll forever be catering to her needs and never getting anything in return.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Into week 3 of 'no more mr I'm going to play your game but I'm still going to be nice guy'. It seems she is starting to wonder if I like her anymore. The other day while eating ice cream my kid asked for some and I replied 'well I guess I can spare some for my favorite person in the world, do you know who that is?' Little did I know she was tuned in to my conversation and jumped in between and said 'its me right!' at the same time motioning for the scoop. So let's recap. The only thing I have changed is that I have removed physical interest in her. I've been courteous fun and pretty much normal guy in all other areas. Seriously! It's expected of me to show physical interest to prove I like her and what's more I have to be reduced to a beggar. No way - that's bs!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

KM,
Are you willing to risk her getting upset with you - in the interest of breaking the logjam?

I'm not talking about being confrontational or aggressive. 



QUOTE=KendalMintcake;9482938]Into week 3 of 'no more mr I'm going to play your game but I'm still going to be nice guy'. It seems she is starting to wonder if I like her anymore. The other day while eating ice cream my kid asked for some and I replied 'well I guess I can spare some for my favorite person in the world, do you know who that is?' Little did I know she was tuned in to my conversation and jumped in between and said 'its me right!' at the same time motioning for the scoop. So let's recap. The only thing I have changed is that I have removed physical interest in her. I've been courteous fun and pretty much normal guy in all other areas. Seriously! It's expected of me to show physical interest to prove I like her and what's more I have to be reduced to a beggar. No way - that's bs!
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: Wife's constant rejection is her way of feeling wanted*



MEM11363 said:


> KM,
> Are you willing to risk her getting upset with you - in the interest of breaking the logjam?
> 
> I'm not talking about being confrontational or aggressive.
> ...


[/QUOTE]
Mem:

Load questions much?



FTR, I want to hear it even if he doesn't... But I doubt that is the case.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> KM,
> Are you willing to risk her getting upset with you - in the interest of breaking the logjam?
> 
> I'm not talking about being confrontational or aggressive.
> ...


[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

My reply is up there in the red text if you look close - something happened and the site didn't separate the colors
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

And something's gotta give pretty soon seeing that it's our anniversary in a week. I was thinking maybe prefacing our usual getaway with something semi confrontational like - 'how about we make it a physical-free getaway so you don't have to worry about me pouncing on you'. Then let her do the talking. I'm so not interested in rejection / resistance at this point that I know I can do it - that is do an anniversary with no intimacy. I think that would be a blow for her - for me it would suck having to self service on out anniversary but the benefit of not feeling rejection is more appealing. That's kind of sad but whatever - rejection blows :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

KMC, the reason I asked earlier what you thought your wife's thoughts were about sex is because you are presuming she views and values sex the same way you do.

You describe your wife as not having interest in sex, and actively placing herself in bed in a way which makes it difficult for you to initiate. She seems content in a sexless marriage. 

You seem to place a value on sex. It isn't just physical release, it has an emotional component.

Her views are very different than yours. I think her sex abuse history is at play in her views, and honestly I don't think she can ever be rewired to have the same views as you do. She can change with good therapy but she won't ever be in the same space you are. 

Nevertheless, you are approaching the issue as if her thought processes are the same as yours. Rejection by her doesn't mean the same thing to her as it does to you.

I think the only way to break this logjam is for her to deeply feel the need to change. I also think the only way to navigate the situation is with a good MC who has experience with sex abuse survivors. Basically your wife needs to hear you tell her how it feels and what it means to you when you are sexually rejected. She needs to understand that her actions and her thought processes are not normal, and her attitudes are causing you pain. The therapist's office is a good safe place to discuss these things, and the therapist can guide the conversation.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

KM,
You two are not in a good place right now. So tell her - don't ask - tell - her that you will reschedule a weekend getaway when you are in a good place. Don't pick a date and don't get pinned down. 

Leave it at: when we are in a good place, we can go

And if she presses you with: but this will help get us back on track

Respond with: No. Our issues aren't fixable that way. 

And then don't debate it. Just shrug and change the subject or end the conversation entirely. 

It is a HUGE mistake to do these trips / anniversary celebrations with a partner who is testing your boundaries. 





KendalMintcake said:


> My reply is up there in the red text if you look close - something happened and the site didn't separate the colors
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Hiya Kendal, I read your first post and the this latest post. 

I know exactly what your wife is doing, having done it myself for years.

Thor is right, she doesn't view sex the same as you or anyone who is normal. She is warped and her view of sex is one of competition. Not control, although control is part of it. "Giving it up" is not something she views as a positive thing. She keeps her emotions in check, she refuses vulnerability, she exudes strength and a certain level of emotional detachment except when she's angry. 

Willingly touching and being touched is allowing herself to be vulnerable. She is a human and a woman and being touched generally means she is likely to respond to that touch. It is her own response she wishes to avoid, not your touch. If she feels good being touched it makes her vulnerable. Being vulnerable is extremely dangerous so it must be avoided.

You've seen her walls, bashed your head around them, on them, tried to get through them. They are they not to keep others out, but to keep her safe. Everyone thinks we build walls to keep people out. No, we build them to keep ourselves safe. But when she agrees to be held or to hold, she has to let those walls come down a little bit. And then she responds to touch like a normal person. It is her own response that she is avoiding, not you, not your touch.

Your wife really needs to read this book and work through the program.

The Sexual Healing Journey: A Guide for Survivors of Sexual Abuse (Third Edition) - Kindle edition by Wendy Maltz. Health, Fitness & Dieting Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

When you pulled away and ended the cuddles, you essentially showed her the importance of symbiotic desire. Not pouting afterward was great. Women can easily tell when her man is pouting even if you felt like you were hiding it.

I had to build my inner strength on my own, go to my husband on my own, deal with my fear on my own, and the whole time I really wanted him to take the lead. But I had turned him away so thoroughly he was damn sure not going to make any moves toward me. Yes he was angry, in his passive way, and his anger stung. Maybe if I hadn't felt his passive yet seething anger toward me I might have been able to ask for what I needed from him? Who knows?

What I needed from him was to be there for me and with me. I needed him to know what I was trying to deal with, without me having to talk, explain, defend... What I wanted him to do was insist I comply with being held, without anger, his or mine. I wanted him to not be so afraid of my anger or my reaction. I wanted him to be strong enough for both of us to confront this. But he had no idea the depth of my effed up-ness. I hid it well beneath the untouchable exterior of a huge B!tch!

As is common with a lot of men, he's not a naturally affectionate guy. After we got married and kids came along, the only time he touched me with affection was when he wanted sex. I started to hate his affectionate touches because it only ever meant that he was horny! So that's how I came to hate affection from him, even though I am a naturally affectionate woman.

We had a lot of damage to undo. And we've done it, remarkably well! Last night we had the best sex EVER ever ever! Of course the fireworks in the distance played a role, the beautiful starry sky, having had a few drinks and an afternoon alone, flirting outrageously, no kids in the house as we sat by the pool, smoked a little weed...leading up to the kind of sex I will remember on my death bed! 

GettingIt has given good advice, so has MEM. Thor is dealing with the same thing but his wife refuses to deal with her past. Your wife is also hesitant. 

Get this book too if you haven't already, 
Amazon.com: Allies in Healing: When the Person You Love Is a Survivor of Child Sexual Abuse eBook: Laura Davis: Kindle Store

First, the CSA survivor must understand what is healthy sexuality and how is it expressed. Then they need to understand how their trauma warped their sexuality into something different. What prevents them from experiencing their full sexual selves? Those two are vital to healing. And yes, you can insist she learn all about healthy sexuality in all it's forms, you can also insist she learn about how CSA warps the development of healthy sexuality. She doesn't have to talk about anything to learn. She just needs to read. She will think on her own and talk about her musings when she's ready.

I haven't read this book but the reviews suggest it is exactly what she needs to read. I suggest you read it together.

Amazon.com: Sex Matters for Women, Second Edition: A Complete Guide to Taking Care of Your Sexual Self eBook: Sallie Foley, Sally A. Kope, Dennis P. Sugrue: Kindle Store


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

I dunno.

If Mrs Wysh wants to feel wanted she only has to wear that slightly see through white dress of hers that I can just see her knickers through or that black T shirt dress split up the sides.

Oh yes!


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

KM,

Nobody teaches us how to talk about sex. And it can be very difficult to do so when you have conflicting desires, sex drives and or expectations. 

I'm very, very fortunate. M2 understood from day one that sex is a big deal to men and to this man. And she was brutally honest about her turn ons and turn offs. That combination of: I know you need this, here's how to make it really work with ME, was magical. 

Example: M2 loves affection. It's like candy - hits that endorphine button deep inside her head. I do too. The thing is, in our first year living together I was groping her pretty often. 

One day, close to the one year point for us - so about 24 years ago - I groped her during a hug. She steps back - gives me a pure unfiltered homicidal look and says: don't do that, I HATE when you grope me. 

That was the last time I did that. We have a lot of affection - that's non sexual. I do not initiate sex by way of affection, and haven't for 24 years. So when I touch, hug, stroke her she knows that this is a straight give. It's not the warmup to an ask. 

If she wants to make it something else - she knows she is welcome to do so by rubbing inside of my thighs or my azz. But she isn't a tease. So she only does that as an invitation. 

As for me, if I want something more I just make eye contact and tilt my head with a certain smile. Worst thing that happens she says 'is it ok we connect tomorrow?'. Otherwise she smiles and nods and we're on. 

-------
You are very disappointed in how she's treating you and you have been for a long time. Totally understandable. So there's no way you can do a 'romantic weekend' in the current context without feeling resentful. Which means you either:
- Ruin the weekend by expressing the resentment or
- Pretend that you're perfectly fine with this situation - which isn't just deceptive, it is actually destructive to you, to her and to the marriage. 

As for Anon's post - she is really good at this stuff. 

As for my comments above, they were intended to help you understand that:
- M2 and I have a great physical connection in terms of both non sexual affection and sex. 
- We got there by understanding and learning how to work with each other's turn ons, and avoid each other's turn offs. 

Until K2 begins actively working to address her issues I have a few gentle suggestions for you:
- Exercise more, it will reduce the tension caused by a lack of affection/sex 
- Don't get in bed until you are ready to go to sleep. Lying in bed next to a W who is - not being a wife - sends a bad message. It implies you are ok with what is happening. Hard workouts make falling asleep easier. 

Talk less and focus on getting better at reading her body language. And learn how to use your body language to shape her behavior. 

Here's a simple example: 
Wife: snaps at H for no apparent reason
H: pauses a moment, turns so he is facing her and calmly says 'what'? 

The intention here is to give her a chance to self assess. Often she will repeat the comment in a non-offensive tone. But if she snaps again, you are prepared for that and:

H: why are you speaking to me like that? (This is better than telling her not to speak to you like that - that's sort of obvious and somewhat parental)

At this point, you will get one of two response types:
1. An acknowledgement that she is out of line - she adjusts her tone and/or apologizes 
2. An escalation of some type including:
A. playing dumb (I have no idea what you're talking about)
B. blame shifting (you are waaayyyy too sensitive)
C. brute force (a total meltdown with loud voice and unkind comments)

There is a constructive way to deal with each of those three things:
A. You might feel better if you said what's on your mind, but if you aren't ready to, that's ok. I'm going to go for a run/to the gym.
B. Actually, this isn't about me. I'm not the one who is upset. If you want to talk about what's on your mind, I'm here.
C. There are two schools of thought on this. And they are both valid:

School 1: IF, and that's a giant IF, you are able to detach so that her meltdown doesn't really bother you. Then the best move is to lean back against a wall and watch the fireworks as if you were watching a reality tv show. You are interested in the proceedings, but they are NOT about you. Here's the thing about this: the person who is melting down is hemorrhaging emotional energy. They will burn themselves out fairly quickly. You want to listen for any useful content (there may be some). You can nod if you agree with something specific. Otherwise it's best not to speak. 

School 2: Don't tolerate this type nonsense because you can't sufficiently detach and it really does upset you. So provide one quick warning and then if it continues tell her: we can talk about this when you are able to do so constructively. 

-----
I hope this makes sense to you KM. 






Anon Pink said:


> Hiya Kendal, I read your first post and the this latest post.
> 
> I know exactly what your wife is doing, having done it myself for years.
> 
> ...


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Thor is right, she doesn't view sex the same as you or anyone who is normal. She is warped and her view of sex is one of competition. Not control, although control is part of it. "Giving it up" is not something she views as a positive thing. She keeps her emotions in check, she refuses vulnerability, she exudes strength and a certain level of emotional detachment except when she's angry.


Anon, thank you for this paragraph. I am always so hesitant to post that a CSA a survivor is "not normal" because it is usually met with hostility from CSA survivors. It taps into that deepest fear most survivors have. But the truth is that trauma survivors do have residue which affects them, and they are not normal in some way or other because of it. Which is not an indictment of the survivor as being at fault for the abuse or for the residue!

Adult children of alcoholics have trauma residue, and they have some abnormal psychological residue. Victims of violent crime have issues. Those who faced a nearly fatal event have residue.

There are some people on this forum I have very deep respect for, and you are one of them.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> School 1: IF, and that's a giant IF, you are able to detach so that her meltdown doesn't really bother you. Then the best move is to lean back against a wall and watch the fireworks as if you were watching a reality tv show. You are interested in the proceedings, but they are NOT about you. *Here's the thing about this: the person who is melting down is hemorrhaging emotional energy. They will burn themselves out fairly quickly. You want to listen for any useful content (there may be some). * You can nod if you agree with something specific. Otherwise it's best not to speak.


This is a really good explanation. Just let her get it out. Try to learn from what she says, but look beyond the emotion. _Don't take it personally._

When she has burned out, and is crying on her bed, or whatever she does, use active listening. Reflect back to her what you think she was upset about, starting gently: "You were really angry. You felt like I was not listening at all (or whatever it was). You don't know how to get through to me."

Really listen. Soothe her. Try to understand where she is coming from. Validate her feelings. Work together to find a solution to what was frustrating her.

When the actual conflict is resolved, prepare for the next time she feels overwhelmed. Help her work out an action plan of what she can do instead of erupting. She may not know how to handle those emotions. Brainstorm some ideas.

And, imo, require an apology when it is all resolved. It will make her feel better and help her forgive herself. She doesn't really want to treat you unkindly. She just feels overwhelmed by her frustration.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Thor said:


> Anon,
> 
> There are some people on this forum I have very deep respect for, and you are one of them.


:iagree:


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Also keep an eye for the inability to self soothe at least some of the time. That could indicate deeper personality issues.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Also keep an eye for the inability to self soothe at least some of the time. That could indicate deeper personality issues.


Yep, you don't want to have to work too hard for her . . .


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Yep, you don't want to have to work too hard for her . . .



I'm not kidding... Adults have the ability to self soothe, and the impairment or lack of this ability is one of the first signs of a personality disorder. Emotional regulation is paramount.

I can understand providing support for major things but if we are talking someone who freaks out because a golf ball dented their '87 Topaz...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> I'm not kidding... Adults have the ability to self soothe, and the impairment or lack of this ability is one of the first signs of a personality disorder. Emotional regulation is paramount.
> 
> I can understand providing support for major things but if we are talking someone who freaks out because a golf ball dented their '87 Topaz...


Help her, john. Take her the way she is, and help her get there.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Thor said:


> Anon, thank you for this paragraph. I am always so hesitant to post that a CSA a survivor is "not normal" because it is usually met with hostility from CSA survivors. It taps into that deepest fear most survivors have. But the truth is that trauma survivors do have residue which affects them, and they are not normal in some way or other because of it. Which is not an indictment of the survivor as being at fault for the abuse or for the residue!
> 
> Adult children of alcoholics have trauma residue, and they have some abnormal psychological residue. Victims of violent crime have issues. Those who faced a nearly fatal event have residue.
> 
> There are some people on this forum I have very deep respect for, and you are one of them.



Thank you Thor.


You're right. Lots of people carry around baggage that warps their posture. But if you don't recognize the baggage that warps your posture, the fact that you can't stand up straight due to the baggage, how can you possibly hope to set down the baggage and learn to stand straight?

When I was younger, I was a great pretender. I knew what a mess I was but I sure as hell wasn't going to let anyone else know!

That's why I think it's so important to begin this healing with learning what normal looks like. How can we learn to stand straight if all we know is bent? We've never seen or experienced straight so how can bent not be normal?

When your wife is a CSA and you have kids, what kind of attitude about sex do you want to teach your kids? Think about your daughter as an adult woman.... Will she have a screwed up sex life or will she enjoy a loving and fulfilling sex life? As a parent, what skills can you teach, what knowledge can you give that will facilitate your daughter growing into a healthy sexual woman?

My older girls were 10-13 when I started healing. Just in time to help them absorb a more healthy attitude about their bodies and eventual sex lives.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

And once you help her with Crisis #340, there is #341, #342, et al. 

Even in a healthy relationship this gets old. That's the corollary of the ability to regulate emotions. Those without a well developed ability will gravitate towards an individual that provides the support (normal behavior) then proceed to dump every issue imaginable on their lap (non normal behavior)


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> School 1: IF, and that's a giant IF, you are able to detach so that her meltdown doesn't really bother you. Then the best move is to lean back against a wall and watch the fireworks as if you were watching a reality tv show. You are interested in the proceedings, but they are NOT about you. Here's the thing about this: the person who is melting down is hemorrhaging emotional energy. They will burn themselves out fairly quickly. You want to listen for any useful content (there may be some). You can nod if you agree with something specific. Otherwise it's best not to speak.
> 
> 
> -----
> I hope this makes sense to you KM.


This! 

How can you hope to fully gain the trust of your wife if she can't trust you to stay with her? Those angry rages are not emotional bloodletting. 

If you really want your wife to heal, you have to learn to stay with her when she is pushing you away.

Think of the rages as a shot across the bow, a warning that her self preservation has been triggered. If you can't take her anger, you are unworthy of being admitted into her private sanctum. 

Fair? Probably not. But there it is just the same.

If you insist she learn to be healthy, you better be strong enough to take all of her emotions!

Disclaimer: if your wife has a personality disorder the above advice isn't applicable.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I totally agree with everything you just said, AP, but why not with personality disorders? What else would work?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> And once you help her with Crisis #340, there is #341, #342, et al.
> 
> Even in a healthy relationship this gets old. That's the corollary of the ability to regulate emotions. Those without a well developed ability will gravitate towards an individual that provides the support (normal behavior) then proceed to dump every issue imaginable on their lap (non normal behavior)


_No one said it would be easy . . ._

You start where you are, john. You accept your mission.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Post #136 should be a sticky.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jld said:


> I totally agree with everything you just said, AP, but why not with personality disorders? What else would work?


Because people with personality disorders are unable to hold themselves accountable for anything. Just as you mentioned requiring a sincere apology after her meltdown, someone with a personality disorder can't sincerely apologize.

If someone with a personality disorder is diagnosed, in therapy and working it, then they are healing themselves and have already acknowledged their personal accountability and are learning to apply it. They deserve to be heard and be supported!

There are a few members here who are working on their diagnosed PD and they serve to remind others that healing is possible.

But if they're not working a program in therapy, no amount of hearing them will help them.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

AP, could you take a look at this website, please?

Marriage and the Long-Term Borderline Relationship

This guy has written about BPD women, and how men can be successful with them. Basically it just takes a strong guy with strong boundaries. These women respect men like that because they can't be pushed around. The women feel safe because when they push against the guy, he doesn't fall over.

_"I normally tell guys that they should not date a BPD unless they absolutely have their emotions under control and aren’t fazed by emotional instability."_ -- from the site


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Unfortunately most people are NOT obviously BPD to the untrained eye, some not even to themselves....


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Doesn't matter. There have always been emotionally unstable women and some men strong enough to handle them.

_"When I look at successful relationships with borderlines, the men wear the pants, they rock the bed room, they aren’t guys that you can pull anything on. They’ve got their **** together and you naturally respect them – hence why a borderline is perfectly happy with him."_ -- from the site ReignitetheFire


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Jld, it's not quite that simple. Trust me on this one. 

We are not talking taming unicorns here. We are talking people that are more toxic than TMI...

You establish boundaries and "wear the pants" and all the BPD sees is control. And that's one thing they despise. You figure out the details.

Besides BPD is a spectrum disorder so it may work for some but not all.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Did you read any of the website, john?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Most of it, a couple years ago. Not impressed.

It's one of the first things that pops up I you search for BPD and relationships. Hard to miss. 

Let's just say the guy would be a barista at Starbucks if he had J2 to deal with as a wife - not girlfriend - Like a lot of DIY books there's some good advise especially for milder cases but most people can't recognize BPD after years, and the expectation is that one will recognize it, read the magic book, apply the magic spells and voila!

I wish him the best certainly but let him write a book about marrying and living with a BPD and we talk.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

jld said:


> This guy has written about BPD women, and how men can be successful with them. Basically it just takes a strong guy with strong boundaries.


JLD, I share John's opinion that this blog guy has a poor understanding of BPDers. While I cannot speak for AP, I've seen enough of her posts to believe she would agree that establishing strong personal boundaries does nothing to make a BPDer relationship "successful." 

While establishing strong boundaries and enforcing them is important, it serves only to protect the Non (nonBPDer) from further abuse. You are still stuck with a parent/child relationship, not a husband/wife relationship.

Moreover, this blog owner's notion that BPDers will be compliant as soon as a real man steps in and establishes firm boundaries is very mistaken. Instead, the BPDers typically will be horrified by a partner who starts enforcing his boundaries and behaving like his true self. They will misinterpret it to be a sign that he almost certainly is planning on abandoning them soon.

Further, BPDers typically find such behavior in a mate intolerable because it fails to provide the continual "validation" of their false self image that they so badly need to confirm. This is why they usually will tolerate a Non's presence in the home only as long as he continues to play the role of Rescuer or Perpetrator -- because both of those roles validate the BPDer's false self image of always being "The Victim." 

My experience is that, once you stop alternating between those roles, the BPDer has no further use for you and will walk out. Certainly, that's what my BPDer exW did to me after 15 years when I started enforcing much stronger boundaries.

Finally, this blog guy's basic message -- that you can save your BPDer spouse and your marriage if you only take the time to figure out what YOU are doing wrong -- is the WORST possible message to be giving to the abused spouses. It is this misguided notion (that they can somehow fix things) that keeps hundreds of millions of abused spouses trapped in toxic marriages for decades.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wasn't that for the best, though, Uptown?

I have only browsed the site, but this guy seems to be reaching people. He has written a few books. While it may not work for everyone, it certainly seems to be working for some people. 

I will have to read some more over there. It seems very reasonable to me, though. BPD surely is not new. People in the past must have found some ways of coping with it.

And I am pretty sure he says to just let her go if she doesn't respect your boundaries. Isn't that basically what happened to you, Uptown?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Pushing very strong boundaries may stop the symptoms (my wife has few episodes those days, handful a year vs handful a week in her top form ) but you really lose out (both) in compassion, empathy, and intimacy with super strong boundaries.

The BPD sees the boundaries and thinks as Uptown indicated the fat lady is about to sing. So the mistrust is increased, vulnerability goes out the window and you end up with a well behaving roommate.

What does work is some variety of DBT or CBT. Knowing what I do about cognitive functions I have had some success with CBT techniques by helping her understand her own thoughts first and self-address her concerns, and then adjust behaviors as needed. DBT is more of the mindful / acceptance Jedi mind trick stuff I'm not into but CBT is more approachable by the layperson because it is right up my alley.

Have I been successful? Not as much as I would like by looking at the time I put into it. I know my wife better than she knows herself. Some things have improved, some have not. So I'm skeptical that the book/web site would have any major impact to a BPD to the tune of making the BPD seem "fixable"...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

One commenter said she did two years of DBT and it did not work. 

_“I did DBT for 2 years and I agree it does jack ****. I took myself off ALL medication (with the doctors help, I don’t need more issues in my head through doing it the wrong way), and the only difference in that is I can think and feel a bit more than on medication, instead of walking around like a zombie.”_

The author advises staying away from medication, too. I will watch for comments on CBT.

I have not heard about making deep emotional connection, if that is possible. Well, just found this:

_"I happen to believe that BPD’s really aren’t that different from nons. I believe that BPD’s have buried these events deep within themselves and have never found a way to accept, forgive and move on."_

It does seem like the "well-behaved roommate" idea is very likely if the boundaries are strong and strictly enforced. Although, over there it seems like sex is going strong. They seem to say that one of the common characteristics of BPD gals is a strong, uninhibited sex drive. I guess I will have to look again.

One of the commenters said that she was begging her SO for strong boundaries to make her feel safe. 

_"I am a woman with BPD and I admire this tactic. I’ve actually have told the men in my life to do similar things. It’s like I need to be put in my place. If they don’t, I’ll eat them alive unfortunately. And believe me, it makes me respect them immediately." _

Yikes, this was harsh:

_"They’re not as bad as a lot of people make them out to be. It’s just that if you’re weak and passive, they eat you alive. If you’re strong and masculine, there **** doesn’t affect you. So while you’re saying you ‘did everything right but still failed’ simply means you didn’t do much right at all. Sorry to tell you but most women in general act like BPD’s when you’re a passive dude."_

And finally:

_"Exactly. BPD is such a wide label, it really makes me sick. That’s why . . . I make it obvious that using BPD to label someone is just a cop out and instead the focus should be on emotional unstability. That’s really all it is. I believe it’s possible for everyone to have control over their emotions, some more than others, but still… Either way, admitting there’s a problem is half the battle. Both men and women in relationships need to talk to each other about issues and not ignore them and hope they go away like most people do."_


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

DBT depends more on the therapist than CBT - and not all therapists are trained in it. 

CBT is easier as it focuses more on the usual input - process - output or cognition - action model we all know. Plus it's more about real skills vs handling pie in sky mindful stuff.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

CBT is basically talk therapy, john?

That one comment says that BPDs have trouble talking about painful events, forgiving and moving on. That would explain what happened 5 years ago to your wife.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CBT is more about recognizing particular specific situations (cognitive) and addressing any concerns and fears, then formulating the appropriate behavior to go with them.

For example, any event at work or at home has the potential to be misinterpreted to something it is not, with bad results. CBT helps explain the event and helps develop an understanding of it that isn't (as) threatening, then a response. 

In essence it's breaking down an event into smaller chunks and explaining away what is happening, the expected beliefs and other causes of things, expected responses, etc. The key is to help them identify extreme thoughts and responses (cognitive) and help guide them towards better choice of behaviors (behavioral).

A big difference between CBT and talk therapy is that talk therapy is more focused on feelings, emotions, end sorting out such things from a conceptual point of view. CBT is more about specific situations and specific actions, trying to rewrite their head into using the proper decision making and action frameworks. 

It is incredibly tiring - like dealing with a 5 year old who keeps asking why. Bit works for a lot of things.

Correct on 2nd part, she won't talk about the events of five years ago, she's simply carrying them long for the ride.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I am sure it would be exhausting to live with someone with this. But it takes all kinds to make a world . . . 

And thanks for that detailed explanation!


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I am sure it would be exhausting to live with someone with this. But it takes all kinds to make a world . . .
> 
> 
> 
> And thanks for that detailed explanation!



Look up Argyle's posts. J2 is not quite there but she ain't too far away either. At the end it's a science fair project either way...


----------



## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Wow - complicated - but your post describes what I feel like has been happening to me by my W.
IF it is ME that initiated or suggests - then it is a problem


----------



## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Have re-read this entire thread again.

This is a fascinating take on a complicated theory.

It is curious though - how if the HD person stops "walking into"or "setting himself/herself" up for rejection....what then ensues.

My experience is that the one who is using the constant attempts at connection by the HD (e.g. - running into the brick walls) to reject and thus feel "wanted" or "secure"....
then begins to feel the opposite.
Why - then do SO many posters report back that it did NOTHING to in turn change the dynamic?? (i.e. the LD spouse begins reaching out or initiating affection/touch/intimacy?)


----------



## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

nightmoves8 said:


> Have re-read this entire thread again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think it's push-pull. Pushing on your wife is akin to pushing on a rope, just ain't gonna happen no matter how fine tuned you push. 

But if you pull on that rope, you can pull a 1000 lbs. 

So many people think they can "fix" their wives by talking and lecturing them out of their LD status. Or by being manipulative and entering into covert contracts, ie "if I vacuum more she'll bang me more"

Nope. 

Women in particular need to enter into your orbit. They want a man who pulls them in. They won't tell you that, but it's true. How many stories do we have where a man gets fit, stops taking shît tests and putting up with bad behavior, and all of the sudden wifey has sodden panties? Women can't respect a man that doesn't respect themselves. They certainly can't be attracted to him. 

People aren't banging into walls, they're pushing on ropes.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

long_done said:


> I get the sense that many spouses put up with it because they're the less powerful partner in the relationship, and are afraid to rock the boat.


The old maladaptive notion that he/she who shows less need/want in the relationship, has the power.


----------



## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

nightmoves8 said:


> Why - then do SO many posters report back that it did NOTHING to in turn change the dynamic??


this is not rocket science. If the spouse is LD, spouse does not think about sex, does not get horny, never has the thought "wow, im really randy, maybe I can get laid tonight".

So if the HD partner stops pestering the LD one for sex...the LD one probably feels an odd sense of relief...can not put their finger on it but feels tension with their spouse gone.

Unfortunately, it is a false sense of relief, as the HD partner gives up and either divorces the LD one, or goes on a sex safari with some eager other partner.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

:rofl: @ sex safari. Pretty much sums it up.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

john117 said:


> CBT ...is incredibly tiring - like dealing with a 5 year old who keeps asking why.


Nice. Very nice, John.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

There is the Pursuer - Distancer dynamic too. One partner needs more closeness in the relationship, the other partner needs much more space. This doesn't necessarily have to align with HD/LD either.

The pursuer wants more intimacy, which for a man typically means he wants more sex. Men tend to have sex as a main Love Language and Emotional Need. So he pursues his wife for more intimacy. If she is one who needs more space she will flee (Distance) from his attempts at a closer relationship. The Distancer may not be avoiding sex but rather is avoiding closeness.

The more the Pursuer attempts to get close, the more the Distancer will oppose those efforts.

If the Pursuer stops pursuing, the Distancer suddenly has all the space they crave. The pressure is off!! And the Distancer is quite happy, without even understanding the depth of unhappiness in their spouse. There is no wonder a Distancer does not start initiating sex when a Pursuer stops.


----------



## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

Sounds like there are more issues in the marriage than you realise.

The lack of sex and her reluctance is merley a symptom of other issues you have not realised yet.

What you describe, regarding the seperate blanlet, sleeping before you, are classic avoidance tactics.

Have you considered the possibillity that she might be having an affair. Some red flags are there.

Have you discreetly done some checking up on her, phone, emails, etc?

No this behavour from your wife is not normal and i would bet there are a lot more issues going on than you care to realise.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Holy cow - this thread is still going. You humble 'OP' here to report now 3 months in with no effort to show interest in physical affection. I was recently accused of not loving her - what? Man oh man. Let's see, I'm supposed to beg and plead and 1 out of 10 times have her roll over my way to prove my commitment meanwhile she never ever initiates for years and doesn't occur to her I may have been thinking the same thing for years now that a few months of her medicine shows her how it feels. Crazyness!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> So this morning I was thinking about this and she came to me and offered to make me bacon and eggs. I decided to do a little test and said that would be great; can you make a cup of coffee too? And you know what? She said no. She doesn't make coffee. That's exactly what she said. We have a Kuerig brewer, couldn't be easier. But if I ask for an act of service she'll say no. The same way she'll reject me sexually even though we do it on a regular basis. All is fine unless I ask for it.


WAIT! you guys did not mention BACON. Who needs sex if she makes you bacon every day:

Homer's bacon banana - YouTube


----------

