# new church= homosexual preacher/ pastor



## preso

I've been invited to a new church that has a lesbian pastor.
It somehow goes against what I believe, in that you cannot be gay and live the lifestyle of a gay person and be a christian, so I can't go to that church.

what are your feelings about gays in the church ministiry? It seems to me they are making up their own religion to think its ok to live as a homosexual or lesbian and teach Gods word.. when the bible strictly prohibits it.

:scratchhead:


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## Leahdorus

I think the more liberal churches are the ones who embrace having gay and lesbians in the leadership roles. These are also often the churches who don't interpret the bible literally; they leave things more open-ended and let the congregation make up their own minds about things.

I think it's great that more churches have gay and lesbian ministers - they are people too and they should not be barred from a career they feel strongly about.


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## preso

yes I am thinking they are teaching people open ended and things they want to hear and why I don't think I should go.

It's been troubling me because I was asked by someone I really like but I'm afraid I can't get involved in anything like that, because I actually do know what the bible says and it even warns of churches like this and to avoid them and the false phropets in them.

I'm sad I found this person goes to this church....

I just can't go with her I guess.

I don't think its so great... they are not real christians, they are cultural christians, or into fads, not christianity.
It's actually kind of scary to me.


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## GAsoccerman

So which Bible do you use? There are hundreds of Versions.

Many of they have edited out certain chapters.

I am fine with your choice of not attending their church, that is your choice.

But why are you scared that these people have some faith? Do you steer away from Buhdist? Hindu's? Muslims? Mormons? Jews? Catholics? Deists? 

maybe they are inviting you to open your eyes and let you see we live in a diverse society.

America was founded on religious freedoms, that we can accept and tolerate people and they may practice their own personal religion in America and not be viewed as an outcast.

Many early settlers came to America for Religious freedoms. While we are mainly a "christian" country, we are a country that accepts all and allows anyone to practice their religion within the laws of the land.

I personally would go, see what it was like, see how others live and worship. I would respect their religion as I hope they would respect my beliefs.


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## JDPreacher

God gave us love...undefined...God gave us freedom to choose so therefore...

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. -- Matthew 19:6

You have a right to choose but not judge...and if I'm not mistaken there is a quote in the Bible that covers that judgement thing, damned if I can remember what it is tho...

Preacher


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## preso

I'm just not going to go. 
It's not my kind of church when they allow homosexuality in the church leaders.

Kinda freaked me out but there are many churches that teach false info, so it shouldn't surprise me really. I just won't go.


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## preso

JDPreacher said:


> God gave us love...undefined...God gave us freedom to choose so therefore...
> 
> Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. -- Matthew 19:6
> 
> You have a right to choose but not judge...and if I'm not mistaken there is a quote in the Bible that covers that judgement thing, damned if I can remember what it is tho...
> 
> Preacher



We use judgement all the time, to choose between right and wrong. Thats why we have a brain, and free will...to choose and make choices


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## JDPreacher

Using judgement and judging someone are polar opposites


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## sisters359

I do not consider myself a Christian or any other specific religion, but I have a lot of faith. The God I have seen revealed is so kind and loving that I know this God embraces all of us, every last one of us. This God would not deny someone love based on something as harmless as their sexual orientation. 

I also believe that Hell is what we create in our own lives by mistreating one another; anyone want to discuss that? ;0


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## GAsoccerman

> Kinda freaked me out but there are many churches that teach false info, so it shouldn't surprise me really. I just won't go.


How do you know they are teaching false info? you won't be there to hear it.

How do you know your church teachings are correct and not one of the false ones? 

How do you really know? Unless you examined all of them and sat at every sermon and knew the absoulute truth (which no one knows)

Basically you are homophobic simple as that.


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## Sandy55

JDPreacher said:


> Using judgement and judging someone are polar opposites


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: U so RT GA


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## Sandy55

The way I see it is that God's genetics and cell mechanics makes people whatever sexual orientation they are so why wouldn't HE want them in the pulpit?

The idea that people choose to be gay is just ignorant.

Basic sexuality tendency is a SPOT on a continuum of genetic predisposition, not a choice.

So, if a person had Down syndrome, but could preach, you'd not want them in the pulpit _either_? 

As is basic sexuality, Down syndrome is a spot on the continuum of genetic predisposition, not a choice.


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## preso

JDPreacher said:


> Using judgement and judging someone are polar opposites


so what then? You believe you should join any church and believe whatever they tell you ?
:rofl:
Not going to happen here but your welcome to join any church you like and let them lead you.


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## preso

Sandy55 said:


> The way I see it is that God's genetics and cell mechanics makes people whatever sexual orientation they are so why wouldn't HE want them in the pulpit?
> 
> The idea that people choose to be gay is just ignorant.
> 
> Basic sexuality tendency is a SPOT on a continuum of genetic predisposition, not a choice.
> 
> So, if a person had Down syndrome, but could preach, you'd not want them in the pulpit _either_?
> 
> As is basic sexuality, Down syndrome is a spot on the continuum of genetic predisposition, not a choice.


no gay leaders for me, thanks... but good to know 
there are people to fill up their churches.
Won't be me... others are welcome to open their souls and heart to any church or leaders they wish. I have standards
I wish to uphold in regard to who I allow to influence me.


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## GAsoccerman

> I have standards


I'm not so sure I would call what you say are "standards"

I could easily say I hate going to churches with White people becuase there is no way they can speak the truth, and call it "standards"

Instead it's ignorance.

You posted your main point we disagree with it, which is fine. as we said, you don't have to go to their church, but you don't have to post here why Gays should not be able to practice a specific religion, simpy because they are gay.

Ignorance, hate, standars, however you wish to describe it, it reaches the same conclusion.


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## Blanca

Sandy55 said:


> The way I see it is that God's genetics and cell mechanics makes people whatever sexual orientation they are so why wouldn't HE want them in the pulpit?


that's so true. ive always thought about this. after all, it does say he created us- and that we're in his image. and if he's perfect, how could he create something imperfect? all things should be perfect. 

but i would think its odd to have a homosexual pastor. id think he must have missed a few verses.


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## Sandy55

This is why my "church" is out in my backyard garden. God knows there is no judgment _there_.

Many churches are full of people who are gathered together because they interpret the Bible together and support each other in that interpretation. This is why I don't go to church. I think church tends to fraction society.

God did not mean for his churches to fraction us.


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## Sandy55

Blanca said:


> that's so true. ive always thought about this. after all, it does say he created us- and that we're in his image. and if he's perfect, how could he create something imperfect? all things should be perfect.
> 
> but i would think its odd to have a homosexual pastor. id think he must have missed a few verses.


The just who is the "imperfect"? Only God knows who is perfect. Could it not be the homosexuals are the perfect and the heterosexual who is imperfect? 

I have some close friends who are homosexual males, and a sister who is homosexual. Some of the most "rounded" personalities I've ever had the fortune to know. From what I've seen people who are not totally pegged to one side or the other of the sexuality spectrum tend to be more creative and intelligent. Just my observation over 50 or so years.


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## dobo

I'm liberal in that I don't have a problem with gay relationships. 

However, I don't believe that gay leadership is appropriate for the church.

Inclusiveness is accepting all. It isn't accepting all leadership.

I didn't write the Bible so I don't have to take responsibility for its content. However, the content is pretty clear on this issue. 

Accepting/loving gays is totally within the realm. But asking someone to be a leader who is involved in something that is against the basic principals is like asking the governor of S. Carolina to give the sermon on fidelity on Sunday.


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## Sandy55

dobo said:


> ...But asking someone to be a leader who is involved in something that is against the basic principals is like asking the governor of S. Carolina to give the sermon on fidelity on Sunday....


 :rofl: 

Infidelity is something chosen, homosexuality is not so you are comparing apples to oranges. Would be more logical to compare someone with Down Syndrome being in the pulpit; Down Syndrome and Homosexuality; or Turner's Syndrome and Homosexuality.


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## preso

dobo said:


> I'm liberal in that I don't have a problem with gay relationships.
> 
> However, I don't believe that gay leadership is appropriate for the church.
> 
> .



same here.


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## Blanca

Sandy55 said:


> The just who is the "imperfect"? Only God knows who is perfect. Could it not be the homosexuals are the perfect and the heterosexual who is imperfect?


well I am not saying that homosexuals are imperfect and heterosexuals are perfect. what i was saying is that on the premise that god created all life, and he is perfect, there could be no imperfection. imperfection cant exist. that would apply to homosexuals, heterosexuals, transvestites, cross dressers, etc. all life is his creation and since He is perfect, so would his creations be perfect- in whatever form He chooses to make them.


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## Blanca

Sandy55 said:


> Infidelity is something chosen.


oh i dont know, give 'em some time. im sure "they" will find a gene for that, too.


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## preso

Blanca said:


> well I am not saying that homosexuals are imperfect and heterosexuals are perfect. what i was saying is that on the premise that god created all life, and he is perfect, there could be no imperfection. imperfection cant exist. that would apply to homosexuals, heterosexuals, transvestites, cross dressers, etc. all life is his creation and since He is perfect, so would his creations be perfect- in whatever form He chooses to make them.


As I know the story from the bible, homosexuality was a curse placed on a tribe for their behaviors. 
I do not feel a homosexual should lead any group of people concerning Gods teachings as the bible also says homosexuality is an abomination to God.
I have no problem with gays but not as a spiritual leader or church leader.
I just can't go to that kind of church as I have read the bible and know what God says about it. God may love everyone but some people are not allowed to teach Gods word.

more on homosexuality and being "born gay"
Homosexual desires are examples of the sin nature that all people are born with (Romans 3:23). While gay temptations may be very strong, they are not exempt from God’s law. God gives us the responsibility to resist our sinful desires, and not allow them to rule over us (Genesis 4:6-7, Romans 6:11-14). He gives us power and healing through the Holy Spirit so we can live as truly changed people, and not just pretend to be so (Romans 8:11-13, 2 Corinthians 5:17). Claiming people are born gay is attempting to justify sin. Using that rationale, people such as liars, hypocrites, thieves, child molesters and cannibals could also claim they "were born that way."


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## Blanca

preso said:


> As I know the story from the bible, homosexuality was a curse placed on a tribe for their behaviors.


oh i did not know that. where is that story exactly? It would make sense since homosexuality is genetic suicide. interesting way to knock out a group.



preso said:


> more on homosexuality and being "born gay"Homosexual desires are examples of the sin nature that all people are born with (Romans 3:23).


This is what i thought homosexuality was according to religion. but i find it interesting that something created by god can be flawed.


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## preso

Blanca said:


> oh i did not know that. where is that story exactly? It would make sense since homosexuality is genetic suicide. interesting way to knock out a group.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what i thought homosexuality was according to religion. but i find it interesting that something created by god can be flawed.



Homosexuality is a judgment from God. 

Homosexuality is not a typical sin that cultures face like theft, lying, or murder, but it is apparently a very symbolic sin through which God reveals His anger. The Apostle Paul described homosexuality as what happens when God gives up on a nation's normal idolatries: "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful" (Rom. 1:26,27).

God does not make sinners - He makes people, and people choose to sin. God created man in his own image , but that has nothing to do with God creating homosexuals, because God is not a homosexual. God is in fact heterosexual, and therefore anything created in his image would also be heterosexual, not homosexual.)) We are placed on the earth with agency, or the ability to act for ourselves. God does not force anyone to do anything. The way you are is the way you have decided to be. Does God make people sin? No. He teaches us why we should not sin. So why would God make someone be homosexual? In the Bible we read the account of when He destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Why? Because they were all sinners and it was better for them to die then to continue sinning and making themselves worse. So what was their sin? The Bible says that it was two main things: Homosexuality and Bestiality (also called Sodomy, receiving its name from this biblical city). So if God destroyed those cities for being homosexuals, why would He make people homosexuals? He doesn't. It's your choice, and he wants everyone, including homosexuals to repent and return to Him. 

________________________________
there is lots more about it, you'll have to do your own research as the bible mentions this subject many times.


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## Blanca

preso said:


> God does not make sinners - He makes people, and people choose to sin....God does not force anyone to do anything. The way you are is the way you have decided to be. Does God make people sin? No.


but i thought you said there was a story about god cursing people with homosexuality b/c of their other sins. that sounds like he made them gay by cursing them, like giving them the plague. If he gave it to them, like a disease, then wouldn't that be making them do something?


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## preso

yes there is a story about that... he left the homosexuals of sodom to their own ways...
which is a curse, as they never would know God.
He left them to their own wicked ways.
You can read more about it... and if you look up homosexuality in the bibles index you will see over and over, God does not like it.

back to the point of this thread, as I do not want to get into a discussion about my personal feelings about gay people....
is this:

I am not going to any church that has leadership by gays.
period.
I don't see anyone who can read the bible can !!!


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## Deejo

You have every right to choose the church you want to attend. If you aren't going to be comfortable, you shouldn't go.

Having attended a small town church with a gay pastor with my family for the last four years, I can tell you it doesn't make a whit of diiference. He was an interim pastor. He was dynamic, inspiring, compassionate and humble. He liked to challenge perception, but it was about matters of faith, not sexual orientation. 

Our church is Congregationalist, so as Leahdrous pointed out, the congregation makes all of it's own decisions about the church. It has been looking for a settled pastor for most of the time the interim pastor was in place. The previous settled pastor was an absolutely wonderful woman who contracted cancer and had to step down. Our congregation consists of folks that have lived in town all their life, veterans, widows, families - just some remarkable people. It's not a congregation of hippies or progressives is what I'm trying to get across. It's an active group of people that do outreach, bible studies, and has wonderful childrens programs. The church installed a settled pastor 2 months ago after a grueling 3 year search. Our new pastor is a woman, and it so happens, is gay. 
Her orientation, or views on sexuality simply don't register in what she has to share regarding her relationship with God, or the engaging and thoughtful sermons that she has delivered. If someone can bring you closer to God or your faith, why wouldn't you want to hear what they have to say?

I grew up Catholic. I'll never forget as a kid, one of our priests stuttered. There were those that were appalled by having to endure services delivered by him, and those that were in awe of his commitment. You feel how you feel, and do what you do.

I'd suggest you stand to lose absolutely nothing by attending a service with your friend, but declining to join the congregation (if that is the expectation)



Leahdorus said:


> I think the more liberal churches are the ones who embrace having gay and lesbians in the leadership roles. These are also often the churches who don't interpret the bible literally; they leave things more open-ended and let the congregation make up their own minds about things.
> 
> I think it's great that more churches have gay and lesbian ministers - they are people too and they should not be barred from a career they feel strongly about.


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## GAsoccerman

it is 2009 it pains me to see narrow minded people still exist in this country.


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## preso

GAsoccerman said:


> it is 2009 it pains me to see narrow minded people still exist in this country.


Pains me to see how many people have no idea of what God wants from us. New age followers have lost their ability to think and use good judgement.
If a celebrity started praying to a sneaker or car tire, everyone else would be doing it too. Its downright crazy.


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## JDPreacher

Maybe this will help...

Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior. 
The Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality. 
Only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way -- and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it's understood today. 


And here is what the Bible has to say about "normal" relationships...

DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately. 
DEUTERONOMY 22:22
If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death. 
MARK 10:1-12
Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced. 
LEVITICUS 18:19
The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed. 
MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir. 
DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her. 

Now, knowing that I'm a preacher...and that I've been married and divorced more than once...

What say ye' now?

Preacher


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## preso

Still something strikes me that I cannot take seriously a church with gay leadership, as the bible strictly prohibits this.
I tend to think a church that allows its leadership to be gay may condone anything and not actually interpret the bible correctly.
You have made some points but you left out the biggest one and the topic of this thread which is gay leadership in the church.


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## JDPreacher

Can you quote me where the Bible specifically states this and what version you are using?

Preacher


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## preso

Its in the back of proverbs, instructions to those in christian leadership


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## JDPreacher

Okay, not seeing specifically where it says homosexuals cannot be leaders, would you please be more specific?

Preacher


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## preso

lets review the bible in context. homosexuality is an abomination to God........ and church leaders must teach the word of God.......
and live by example as they are held to a higher set of rules.
Therefore, a gay person, who is an abomination to God, cannot teach the word of God as they have no obediance to Gods word.


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## JDPreacher

Can you quote the passages you are referring to? Leviticus has some misgivings...I find nothing in Proverbs...

Bible says you should beat your kids for misbehaving too...Bible says a lot of things that aren't relevant...nor that make sense.

Rape, incest, killing...all are advocated by the Bible and those too are abominations...supported by God...

As with all things written by (Bible) and practiced by mortals, there is margin for error.

Preacher


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## preso

in the back of proverbs, there is a whole book to christian leaders/ teachers.
you don't know that ??????????
and you preach ?

ok back on topic... so many false leaders in churches these days, one has to be careful, they will sometimes teach people what people want to hear rather than the truth and the book of the bible 
and with that.. I say

amen.
http://www.geocities.com/johndavidmueller/Homosexuality.htm
That church isn't right for me.
period. because I do know what the bible says.
Leadership of a church by a homosexual is a slap in Gods face.
The churches who have gay leadership,
its the false phropet in the flesh


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## adobesky

GAsoccerman...it is not hate from me anyways
I have friends who are gay, they know that I do not agree with their "lifestyle" choices but love them anyways...
I personally also would not attend a church which had a homosexual leader, not because I have a hate on for gays but because I believe the Bible itself teaches that this lifestyle/behavior is against God's principles and therefore I cannot agree with having a leader who is gay.


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## adobesky

Preacher, maybe you should read this article which has several citings where the Bible speaks against homosexuality Life & Liberty Ministries: The Truth about Homosexuality


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## GAsoccerman

glad you feel good about yourself...but it's still fear, hate and ignorance.


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## rateyes

I am a Christian, i look to the Bible and God for advice and direction. But you also have to realize a few things:

1) i wasnt aware anyone besides God is suppose to judge others.

2) The Bible was written in the culture of then,when homosexuality was a demon and there are human influences in the Bible beleive it or not, and todays culture is much different.

3) homosexuality is now known to be something you are born as, in your DNA, you cannot help being gay. The Bible doesnt condemn slavery, so would you then use slavery? Hopefully you say no. Would you hate a black person because they are black if the Bible told you to? hopefully you say no. get it? use judgement, this links back to #2, it was in the culture of the time

4) If you cannot accept a gay preacher, are you really the Christian you think you are? Christians are suppose to be loving and understanding, your not being either of those, your being judgmental and harsh, which isnt a good image for a Christian. I so many times see people claim to be Christians, yet dont act it at all/ are very narrow minded in their cognitives that it pains me to think they truely think God would smile upon the behaviors.


and i mean all this in the nicest way possible.


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## preso

rateyes said:


> I am a Christian, i look to the Bible and God for advice and direction. But you also have to realize a few things:
> 
> 1) i wasnt aware anyone besides God is suppose to judge others.
> 
> 2) The Bible was written in the culture of then,when homosexuality was a demon and there are human influences in the Bible beleive it or not, and todays culture is much different.
> 
> 3) homosexuality is now known to be something you are born as, in your DNA, you cannot help being gay. The Bible doesnt condemn slavery, so would you then use slavery? Hopefully you say no. Would you hate a black person because they are black if the Bible told you to? hopefully you say no. get it? use judgement, this links back to #2, it was in the culture of the time
> 
> 4) If you cannot accept a gay preacher, are you really the Christian you think you are? Christians are suppose to be loving and understanding, your not being either of those, your being judgmental and harsh, which isnt a good image for a Christian. I so many times see people claim to be Christians, yet dont act it at all/ are very narrow minded in their cognitives that it pains me to think they truely think God would smile upon the behaviors.
> 
> 
> and i mean all this in the nicest way possible.


You need to look up FALSE TEACHERS then.

anyway... we have found a wonderful church that teaches the word, and in no way twists things... and are very happy with it.


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## Blanca

preso said:


> anyway... we have found a wonderful church that teaches the word, and in no way twists things... and are very happy with it.


just curious, which one? 

i took three years of biblical hebrew because i was curious how the word was twisted. some interesting turns in genesis alone. my next goal is to learn greek. there's a lot of debate about what exactly jesus was referring to when he said "you are the rock of my church," which of course is the foundation for the catholic church naming Peter as the first Pope. and anyway, everyone knows the bible has been tweaked with every profitable hand that came to power. how anyone can take it at face value is really beyond me. 

anyway, if you're really interested in learning about the twists and turns you might consider learning biblical hebrew and koine greek. its one thing to have someone preach it at you, quite another to learn it for yourself.


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## rateyes

preso said:


> You need to look up FALSE TEACHERS then.
> 
> anyway... we have found a wonderful church that teaches the word, and in no way twists things... and are very happy with it.


how are they twisting things? cuz they are gay they twist stuff?



> DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
> If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
> DEUTERONOMY 22:22
> If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
> MARK 10:1-12
> Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
> LEVITICUS 18:19
> The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
> MARK 12:18-27
> If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
> DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
> If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.


exactly, thank you JDpreacher, do you take everything word for word in the Bible preso? You may just have a hate for gays, and your using the Bible to justify it.


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## preso

I dont hate gays, but do not seek them out either. I DO HAVE A PROBLEM with GAY CHURCH LEADERS, as according to the bible, you have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

We are very happy with our new church, it is not a commercialized type church, trying to get new customers, but an older, established one, that teaches the word, by a leader who walks the walk.


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## rateyes

preso said:


> I dont hate gays, but do not seek them out either. I DO HAVE A PROBLEM with GAY CHURCH LEADERS, as according to the bible, you have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.
> 
> We are very happy with our new church, it is not a commercialized type church, trying to get new customers, but an older, established one, that teaches the word, by a leader who walks the walk.


how do they not walk the walk? even if they are for God 100%, just cuz they are gay, they are not walking the walk? and im pretty sure you have to stone the gays to death too, are you? so YOUR not following the Bible accordingly...your choosing what to use, and your choosing to hate on gays. also im pretty sure you ahve done something the Bible has said we should stone you to death for...so this is all in accordance to the CULTURE of the TIME.

and take a look at the verses above, are you going to stone someone to death for having premarital sex? prob not. why treat a gay person otherwise in a leadership position?

and i bet the gay church leader is more knowledgeable on the Bible than most other church leaders because of the hardships they have to go through just to be Christian...and it saddens me. this whole situation makes me lose faith in Christians, if they can act in such a nonloving way towards someone like this...


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## Mommybean

Not ALL Christians have that mentality, Ratty. I think the hypocritic nature of the churches I experienced as a child was the main reason I did not go to church for most of my adulthood. It was not until a year ago that we found a church locally that we were interested in trying. It's an awesome place, and the pastors and others involved in the church truly care about everyone. My kids love it there, and most of all, WE love it there. It's great to be able to have faith and not feel looked down upon by others. Don't lose faith in ALL Christians, for they are NOT all like this.


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## blue_eyed_angel

This is an interesting post and I happen to think gays/lesbians should be allowed to be leaders within churches. Personally, I just don't see anything wrong with it and I'm a recovering Catholic. My husband and I would probably disagree, but thats okay! Gays, lesbians, transgendered individuals cannot change their sexual orientation, no more than we can. They are individuals who are entitiled to the same respect, rights and dignities as others, and if that means being the leader of a church then so be it. By the same token, if you are not comfortable, and your friend is true, he or she will understand that it is not your wish to attend the church. A persons religion is a private and personal choice.


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## rateyes

Mommybean said:


> Not ALL Christians have that mentality, Ratty. I think the hypocritic nature of the churches I experienced as a child was the main reason I did not go to church for most of my adulthood. It was not until a year ago that we found a church locally that we were interested in trying. It's an awesome place, and the pastors and others involved in the church truly care about everyone. My kids love it there, and most of all, WE love it there. It's great to be able to have faith and not feel looked down upon by others. Don't lose faith in ALL Christians, for they are NOT all like this.


well its nearing all...prob close to 95% of Christians are like this and i cant understand why, and its the same here, i cannot find a church that is of true God and Jesus morals, one im at right now seems alright, but im starting to see otherwise. I may stay for a few peope though, and worry about ME and GOD, and forget about the people.


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## preso

rateyes said:


> how do they not walk the walk? even if they are for God 100%, just cuz they are gay, they are not walking the walk? and im pretty sure you have to stone the gays to death too, are you? so YOUR not following the Bible accordingly...your choosing what to use, and your choosing to hate on gays. also im pretty sure you ahve done something the Bible has said we should stone you to death for...so this is all in accordance to the CULTURE of the TIME.
> 
> and take a look at the verses above, are you going to stone someone to death for having premarital sex? prob not. why treat a gay person otherwise in a leadership position?
> 
> and i bet the gay church leader is more knowledgeable on the Bible than most other church leaders because of the hardships they have to go through just to be Christian...and it saddens me. this whole situation makes me lose faith in Christians, if they can act in such a nonloving way towards someone like this...



The bible is pretty clear about homosexuality and leadership. I prefer to go by the word, not someones twisted version of it.
You should worship as you please.... as will I.


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## TNgirl232

preso said:


> Pains me to see how many people have no idea of what God wants from us. New age followers have lost their ability to think and use good judgement.
> If a celebrity started praying to a sneaker or car tire, everyone else would be doing it too. Its downright crazy.


Seems to me the new age followers are the only ones thinking - everyone else is toeing the same line that has been taught for thousands of years. You aren't using your judgment - your basing it off of what you have been taught - from a religion that sees it as black and white.

I don't believe God to be black and white - its why I have an issue with most organized religions - if I happen to interpret a line from the bible differently than another I'm a heretic and unworthy of being in their presence. Because we know God said "Love thy neighbor - as long as they agree with you". I'm a firm believer in God will deal with each of us and our sins when we get to heaven - why do we have to put people through hell here on earth trying to do his job for him.


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## preso

TNgirl232 said:


> Seems to me the new age followers are the only ones thinking - everyone else is toeing the same line that has been taught for thousands of years. You aren't using your judgment - your basing it off of what you have been taught - from a religion that sees it as black and white.
> 
> I don't believe God to be black and white - its why I have an issue with most organized religions - if I happen to interpret a line from the bible differently than another I'm a heretic and unworthy of being in their presence. Because we know God said "Love thy neighbor - as long as they agree with you". I'm a firm believer in God will deal with each of us and our sins when we get to heaven - why do we have to put people through hell here on earth trying to do his job for him.



That is why there are so many churches, so everyone can find a place. Your in luck as the new agers are building up lots of new churches that cater to the whims and popularity of certain demographic groups as they can build their buisiness telling them what they want to hear.
I'm so glad to find a church that doesn't do that.
Churches are like dating was... there is one for everyone.


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## michzz

TNgirl232 said:


> Seems to me the new age followers are the only ones thinking - everyone else is toeing the same line that has been taught for thousands of years. You aren't using your judgment - your basing it off of what you have been taught - from a religion that sees it as black and white.


Seems to me this kind of dismissive thinking is as off-base as knee-jerk adherence to dogma.

Casting off one yoke for a fresher one is not necessarily a thinking exercise.


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## TNgirl232

No more dismissive than preso's statement that new age followers don't think.

I think it has to have some thinking involved to cast aside something you've been taught all your life for something that speaks to your soul more than the mainstream did.

I agree with preso about one thing - that's why there are so many options to choose from - each can find the one that fits them. But I just happen to like people who say AND act that way - instead of saying it and then act like you are a lesser person or condemned to hades for not agreeing with them.

I'm not a new age follower (at least I don't think I am) - I just have spirituality. I believe in treating others as I would want to be treated, to help friends, family and strangers equally when they are in need and I am able - basically to live my life to be 'good' the best I can. Everything else is up to fate.


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## michzz

TNgirl232 said:


> No more dismissive than preso's statement that new age followers don't think.


I hadn't seen that statement, just yours.

Binary thinking bothers me for sure.


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## Blanca

rateyes said:


> i cannot find a church that is of true God and Jesus morals,


you do realize that god and jesus at one point killed off 99.9% of the population by drowning them because they were 'bad,' right? and need we forget that god is a 'vengeful and jealous god'. god leads his men into battle in the bible all the time- meaning he asks men, like you, to kill sinners. he actually helps them kill hundreds of people because they are sinners. i dont recall him ever asking for an "open-mind". Its more like, you're gonna die now, and then go to hell to suffer unimaginable agony for time and all eternity if you dont follow the rules. and have you actually seen the list of rules? its not only extensive, but down right contradictory at times. its like a trap. resonates with love, doesnt it? 

there's a small section were christ proclaims peace, and forgiveness. very fluffy, but read revelations for a revelation (or just about any other book) on the moral of an "open-minded" god. if you cross him, he'll knock you off by sending in troops, meaning people here on earth are going to have to kill you- and its coming. Gods "angels" get to sound the horn for the torture to begin. there's a warm fuzzy feeling of acceptance for ya. God sends his angels to spread hell, fire, and damnation to burn off, drown, and otherwise torture a good portion of all the citizens. wonder who.

Not saying i believe any of it. just saying i find it interesting you want god's morals, at least how they are portrayed in the bible. Technically that means you think gays, and millions of others, are going to hell and if god asked you to kill them, you would. which obviously He as proven in the past He has no problem asking of his "saints". 

thats why i never cared for the bible. it doesnt resonate with my warm fuzzies. i dont really want to kill anyone. and i dont particularly think anyones going to hell- least of all gay people. most christians dont like to think about that stuff though- not good for the peace of mind. they mostly just think about the time god said to love and forgive your neighbors.


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## rateyes

Blanca said:


> you do realize that god and jesus at one point killed off 99.9% of the population by drowning them because they were 'bad,' right? and need we forget that god is a 'vengeful and jealous god'. god leads his men into battle in the bible all the time- meaning he asks men, like you, to kill sinners. he actually helps them kill hundreds of people because they are sinners. i dont recall him ever asking for an "open-mind". Its more like, you're gonna die now, and then go to hell to suffer unimaginable agony for time and all eternity if you dont follow the rules. and have you actually seen the list of rules? its not only extensive, but down right contradictory at times. its like a trap. resonates with love, doesnt it?
> 
> there's a small section were christ proclaims peace, and forgiveness. very fluffy, but read revelations for a revelation (or just about any other book) on the moral of an "open-minded" god. if you cross him, he'll knock you off by sending in troops, meaning people here on earth are going to have to kill you- and its coming. Gods "angels" get to sound the horn for the torture to begin. there's a warm fuzzy feeling of acceptance for ya. God sends his angels to spread hell, fire, and damnation to burn off, drown, and otherwise torture a good portion of all the citizens. wonder who.
> 
> Not saying i believe any of it. just saying i find it interesting you want god's morals, at least how they are portrayed in the bible. Technically that means you think gays, and millions of others, are going to hell and if god asked you to kill them, you would. which obviously He as proven in the past He has no problem asking of his "saints".
> 
> thats why i never cared for the bible. it doesnt resonate with my warm fuzzies. i dont really want to kill anyone. and i dont particularly think anyones going to hell- least of all gay people. most christians dont like to think about that stuff though- not good for the peace of mind. they mostly just think about the time god said to love and forgive your neighbors.


well i like to think that that is all made up for control and power purposes and that the Bible has severe human 'influence' in it and isnt the true word...but one can dream. and yes that has always troubled me. THey just never bring it up in youth groups, or church...so i had forgotten about that, i meant the good qualities lol...im gonna have to think about this....its agood point


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## rateyes

preso said:


> The bible is pretty clear about homosexuality and leadership. I prefer to go by the word, not someones twisted version of it.
> You should worship as you please.... as will I.


can you stop avoiding the question and tell me how its TWISTED?


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## preso

rateyes said:


> can you stop avoiding the question and tell me how its TWISTED?


:sleeping:
You need to read your bible, I'm not hear to preach to you or influence anyone on what they should believe or worship. 
You might try the back of proverbs to start, instructions to church leaders as I posted on this thread long time ago.

you can also look up false teachers and do a self study as well as homosexulaity in Gods eyes.
It would be a wonderful way for you to learn first hand to have a deeper understanding not only of who God is but how to create the relationship of RESPECT he wants from you, In other words, to RESPECT the word.


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## Beninyourshoes

WOW, I stumbled across this by accident and it is really amazing how we as Christians loose sight of what the Bible actually says. We want to make everyone happy and not offend anyone. That would not be POLITICALLY CORRECT now would it. 

God created us all as sinners and that is why he sent his son Jesus Christ to shed his blood for our sins so that we could be forgiven if we ask for HIS forgiveness. God does not hate the person but he does hate the sin. It is the sin that is the problem not the person. 

You have to be careful and not take the Bible out of context and read into it to make you feel all warm and fuzzy about actions that should not be done. 

If everyone converted over to a gay lifestyle, how would the Earth repopulate itself? I know, we can just clone everyone and play god. Now there is a Liberal idea.

Two things struck me funny about the Lesbian Pastor. One thing has yet to be mentioned unless I missed it.

The first thing is Homosexuality is a sinful behavior. And in my opinion as I interpret the Bible, It is a Behavior (Sin) and not a genetic problem. 

Romans 1:26,27 says:
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

1 Corinthians 6:9 (NIV)
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 

However, the Bible does not describe homosexuality as a “greater” sin than any other. All sin is offensive to God. Homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. According to the Bible, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Philippians 4:13).


The other problem that I see with the Lesbian Pastor is that a women should not be a Pastor. I know this is going to be controversial but it is what it is.

The Word of God proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11-12). In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created and the way in which sin entered the world (2 Timothy 2:13-14). God, through the apostle Paul, restricts women from serving in roles of teaching and/or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors, which definitely includes preaching to, teaching, and having spiritual authority over men.

There are many “objections” to this view of women in ministry. A common one is that Paul restricts women from teaching because in the first century, women were typically uneducated. However, 1 Timothy 2:11-14 nowhere mentions educational status. If education were a qualification for ministry, the majority of Jesus' disciples would not have been qualified. A second common objection is that Paul only restricted the women of Ephesus from teaching (1 Timothy was written to Timothy, who was the pastor of the church in Ephesus). The city of Ephesus was known for its temple to Artemis, a false Greek/Roman goddess. Women were the authority in the worship of Artemis. However, the book of 1 Timothy nowhere mentions Artemis, nor does Paul mention Artemis worship as a reason for the restrictions in 1 Timothy 2:11-12.

A third common objection is that Paul is only referring to husbands and wives, not men and women in general. The Greek words in the passage could refer to husbands and wives; however, the basic meaning of the words refers to men and women. Further, the same Greek words are used in verses 8-10. Are only husbands to lift up holy hands in prayer without anger and disputing (verse 8)? Are only wives to dress modestly, have good deeds, and worship God (verses 9-10)? Of course not. Verses 8-10 clearly refer to all men and women, not only husbands and wives. There is nothing in the context that would indicate a switch to husbands and wives in verses 11-14.

Yet another frequent objection to this interpretation of women in ministry is in relation to women who held positions of leadership in the Bible, specifically Miriam, Deborah, and Huldah in the Old Testament. This objection fails to note some significant factors. First, Deborah was the only female judge among 13 male judges. Huldah was the only female prophet among dozens of male prophets mentioned in the Bible. Miriam's only connection to leadership was being the sister of Moses and Aaron. The two most prominent women in the times of the Kings were Athaliah and Jezebel—hardly examples of godly female leadership. Most significantly, though, the authority of women in the Old Testament is not relevant to the issue. The book of 1 Timothy and the other Pastoral Epistles present a new paradigm for the church—the body of Christ—and that paradigm involves the authority structure for the church, not for the nation of Israel or any other Old Testament entity. 

Similar arguments are made using Priscilla and Phoebe in the New Testament. In Acts 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla's name is mentioned first, perhaps indicating that she was more “prominent” in ministry than her husband. However, Priscilla is nowhere described as participating in a ministry activity that is in contradiction to 1 Timothy 2:11-14. Priscilla and Aquila brought Apollos into their home and they both discipled him, explaining the Word of God to him more accurately (Acts 18:26).

In Romans 16:1, even if Phoebe is considered a “deaconess” instead of a “servant,” that does not indicate that Phoebe was a teacher in the church. “Able to teach” is given as a qualification for elders, but not deacons (1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:6-9). Elders/bishops/deacons are described as the “husband of one wife,” “a man whose children believe,” and “men worthy of respect.” Clearly the indication is that these qualifications refer to men. In addition, in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:6-9, masculine pronouns are used exclusively to refer to elders/bishops/deacons.

The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 makes the “reason” perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with “for” and gives the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11-12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived.” God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. This order of creation has universal application in the family (Ephesians 5:22-33) and the church. The fact that Eve was deceived is also given as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This leads some to believe that women should not teach because they are more easily deceived. That concept is debatable, but if women are more easily deceived, why should they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? That is not what the text says. Women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. As a result, God has given men the primary teaching authority in the church.

Many women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching, and helps. Much of the ministry of the local church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted from public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only from having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and to proclaim the gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).

God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching men or having spiritual authority over them. This logically would preclude women from serving as pastors/preachers. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.


This is what I have found on the subject and I tend to believe the Bible and I don't think we should add to or take away from it. I know it is hard to admit when you are wrong but the Homosexual lifestyle is wrong for a God fearing Christian. I guess in the next 10/20 yrs. the public will start condoning incest and such other provertions.


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## Tweak

I agree with the above statements.
Even if Beninyourshoes is using the New World Translation and not the King James Version.I will quote it verbatim from the KJV. 

Romans 1:26-32

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

One must have faith.I trust in God to preserve his word.
Whats that?You say that man could manipulate it....True but do you think God the creator of EVERYTHING would not have the power to preserve his word?

Now with the above said,I do not Hate or judge Gay people.
If they wanna go to church,well then,they can go right to it. 
I will however NOT be preached at by or taught by a Homosexual person.Its a conflict of interest.

I feel that women in the church should not preach,there is Biblical "proof" as Beninyourshoes stated above.
I do not have a problem with women teaching Bible school class though (kids),and neither do most churches.There is a structure that the Bible teaches in proper operation and selection of leaders.
Want proof,look up the selected scriptures that Beninyourshoes has provided above.
Want a little more?
There were 12 apostles,correct?All 12 were what? MEN
If there would have been more and it was deemed acceptable by God,Mary Magdalene would have undoubtedly been it.She had more faith then most of the apostles.However she was a woman and as such exempt from apostle hood. 

1st Timothy 2:11-15

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Also something else.
Joh 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

I walk through life trying not to cast stones.I try to not cast them on forums either.
People get offended by the truth.The truth hurts sometimes but it would weigh on the conscience of those that do know it if they did not share.
If you do not agree.Cool Deal.I will not shovel it down your throat.Just do not ask me to feign acceptance to something I do not believe in.That's the beauty of this world,we can agree to disagree.One day it will all come out,and if by some slim chance the atheists are right,then it does not matter.

O yeah there is a verse or two for that to.
Mt 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mr 6:11
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.



PS-I know I have talked about issues on these forums that are really personal.In fact some may be tempted to use this as ammo against anything I say.All I will say is this.I am only Human.I sin daily.Its between me and God,what those happen to be.Those sins that I sin are no greater or any lesser then anyone else's sins.
To put this in perspective which is greater,the theft of a penny or the theft of one million dollars?Think about it.


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## Beninyourshoes

Tweak, good points. I use e-bible for information, it has all the versions of the Bible and cross references each version. Some versions are in more lamins (sp?) terms so you can understand easier.

I feel as you do, Women are aloud to teach, just not Men.

Too often when you use the Bible as a guideline for how we live our lives. People tend to use the "you should not judge" card. It's not judging, it just telling you or informing you what we should be doing in our daily lives as per the Bible guides us. I too sin everyday and have skeletons in my closet, but I feel convicted and ask God to forgive me, lead, guide and direct me in my daily activities.

Yes one day it will all come out in the end. I hope for the sake of some of those reading that they didn't get it wrong for their own personal gain. I have in the past tried the "what does it matter if I sin, God will forgive me" card, but I feel like the Holy Spirit convicts my heart and tells me the I am doing wrong. I believe that if you are a born again Christian and have TRULY excepted Jesus into your heart, you will feel the conviction. The conviction of the Holy Spirit is what gives me such great FAITH. Why do we feel something when we are doing wrong. If there is no wrong, why are most of the people on this forum? Most of us are on here because we have been wronged by someone else.


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## Tweak

I have been using Sword Searcher 4 for all my reference for the Bible.
The search function alone is awesome,as it has like 7 different versions of the Bible,even the original hebrew/greek....I think.

I am the type pf person who will lay all the cards out on the table.
I will not force or shove,unless I am forced or shoved.
I know,I know turn the other cheek.Its the hardest thing for me to do though.


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## Synergy

sisters359 said:


> I do not consider myself a Christian or any other specific religion, but I have a lot of faith. The God I have seen revealed is so kind and loving that I know this God embraces all of us, every last one of us. This God would not deny someone love based on something as harmless as their sexual orientation.
> 
> I also believe that Hell is what we create in our own lives by mistreating one another; anyone want to discuss that? ;0


I share your beliefs. I really don't think it's for me to decide what someone else chooses to do unless, of course, they're gonna' go shoot someone or something like that. I don't know the dynamics of that person's life. It's not my business.

I've often stated I think we are actually living in hell. Strange that someone shares my opinion. lol

The basic rule I choose to live by is "Do unto others.....". Kindness, consideration and respect for others goes a LOOOONG way.


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## MrWhite

I find this entire discussion strange .... 

People that appear to be so knowledgeable yet have a desire to be what the author of their faith never was. 

p.s.
Judgment is about character 

Decisions are about things

Go join one of the so called straight churches ... they're so many to choose from and its much more entertaining to see them come out of the closet or cry on TV about the teenager girls and alter boys... 

Good luck to you my friend


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## Meriter

preso said:


> I've been invited to a new church that has a lesbian pastor.
> It somehow goes against what I believe, in that you cannot be gay and live the lifestyle of a gay person and be a christian, so I can't go to that church.
> 
> what are your feelings about gays in the church ministiry? It seems to me they are making up their own religion to think its ok to live as a homosexual or lesbian and teach Gods word.. when the bible strictly prohibits it.
> 
> :scratchhead:


what you may someday realize is that all of religion and the rules surrounding it is "made up".
This happens all the time. It is the church's attempt to mold the religion to better fit changing society and to keep money flowing into the donation baskets.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Meriter

JDPreacher said:


> God gave us love...undefined...God gave us freedom to choose so therefore...
> 
> Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. -- Matthew 19:6
> 
> You have a right to choose but not judge...and if I'm not mistaken there is a quote in the Bible that covers that judgement thing, damned if I can remember what it is tho...
> 
> Preacher


okay preacher, now how about posting some of the passages which say homosexuality is fobidden.

The point is people are going to continue to take from the bible only what is convenient for them and ignor the rest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cb45

EXCELLENT job, 'Shoes!

i wish i had the patience/dedication to quote the bible here
as extensively as u (& tweak) do. (time also)

unfortunately like the wiped out souls of sodom-gommorah,
many who come to argue w/ u, are lost (4time being?) and
dont have a clue to yer bible ref's as they've never
read them. and 4 those who have & argue against spelled out
black/white sins listed, shame shame on u! i think i read 
someone say, "i no longer believe that stuff"[paraphrased]ex-christians one n all.

for the seculars i'll attack this as simply as i can (w/ spirits help of course). pretend i come to do an inservice at your work
or former workplace. lets say ur all a bunch of well educated
engineers. i come and start instructing you all on new & im=-
proved techniques to build that upcoming bridge, and that up-
coming superhighway etc. now i dont know a thing about
what it is i am saying. no experience. just some quicky
research books on subject.........

you see where i'm going right? if u go along w/all i say just
because u assume i know what i'm talking about, cuz mgmt
put me up on this stage, then theres gonna be hell to pay.
faulty bridges, rds etc will cost $$$, lives, and peoples peace
of mind u know what u r doing, no? thjere'll be a bounty on
my head or i'll be put away, locked up.

too many people get up on stage trying to teach wind up 
destroying instead. this goes for both pro & con bible 
folk here n everywhere.

get educated 1st, pls. i cant say anything against muslim or
hindus if i dont know diddly, now can i? unless i wish to 
appear to be stupid/ignorant that is.


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## gtull1

If you can't condone the lifestyle of your preacher, she probably won't be the one to help you feel closer to God.


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## cb45

gee, that almost qualifies as an oxymoron, no?


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## trove99

An homosexual preacher/pastor cannot be a true pastor.GOD is against it..dont even waste ur time listening to such pastor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cb45

wow, i take a vacation for awhile and spirituality blossoms (finally) w/ some action.

TO rateyes (lol...lmao...moniker says it all?) and others who side w/ him/her:

dont ask people to prove anything to ya, esp concerning bible passages re: homos and the like, as u dont bother reading them nor praying/meditating about them or better still *not* HUMBLY ASKING God to teach u via the Holy Spirit what the heck does any of it mean esp concerning u and YOUR life.

u read like a troubled spirit who doesnt have a pot to piss in, or worse yet, *no real lasting love *in yer life.

u know yer all wrong, and why it is so. but still u contend to argue yer pt as if any true christian is gonna be swayed by yer foolish opinion? Jesus spoke of u and psuedo christians 
(some of which have wishy washy posts here) comparing u and the times to those of Noahs flood long ago.

there are some tenets or issues that are unclear in the bible w/out alot of study and prayer, i'll give u that. but homosexuality wasnt one of them. Old test/New test, pretty much the same. only diff was violent punishments in OT, and some prayer/understanding/admonitions in the NT, as both Jesus and Paul demonstrated w/ their teachings.

No christian is saying homos arent welcome (to repent) in their churches. if they do say so, they are not christians.
but by same token, homos looking to continue their lifestyle and call it christianity in an estabilished church or their own, are only seeking controversy or fooling themselves.

futhermore, if u erroneously think that u r entitled to delete or multiply any of the ten commandments which Jesus skimmed down to two for simple minds like all of us, then its no wonder u (like our wishy washy false christians) stand for nothing but fall for anything.
I mean really come on, lets reason together (if u can do so),
if u think its ok to bypass immorality like many in this current age we're in, w/ homosexuality in all our walks of life 'cuz u and others deem it natural (?), and how u were born, and yer civil rights etc etc, then........

why cant we say, do away w/ the commandment not to kill?
i mean, i was born a socio-path/pyschopath and i love to kill
and its natural for me, and heck everybodies doing it anyways so why not make it legal and not a sin?
yeah, i like that idea. u get to **** rape people and i get to kill u/them/anybody too! why is that wrong rat?

And hey! lets not forget the thieves. they wanna steal. got any valuables u wanna hide rat? better hide them good cuz congress just weaseled another law saying its ok to steal, cuz thats what they do....bend over for any active interest groups.
(oops, dont wanna talk over yer head rat) why can u be **** and they cant be klepto rat? huh rat? huh psuedos?

i could go on but unless u r stupid or a waif, u get the pt, right rat? or do u or anybody else wanna prove my pt for the evil contentious nature u possess and still belabor a pt that Jesus and company made clear for u over 2,000yrs ago?

if any of u do contend, then i wont bother to respond for u r no different than those theives murderers and perverts that were in the raucous crowds of jerusalem calling for Jesus' death in the first place. God has a place, a judgement made especially for u to perhaps join them as it were. oh, and God is God so he can also do as he pleases too, right rat? i mean its only fair, right rateyes? at least he gave u and yours a warning, didnt he rat?

everydays a new day. and with Gods help, we can all leave our pasts behind. but u gotta ask. u gotta confess. u gotta give up the steering wheel and our stupid understandings, min by minute if necessary. me included. 

hope that makes ya feel better folks.


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## Danielson67

The Bible is pretty clear on this issue. It's not we who are judging, the Bible has already passed judgement - we are just agreeing with what the Bible says, and by Bible I mean the inspired, infallible, Word of God. Those who choose to disregard or take out certain passages of the Bible do so at their own peril. Once you start picking and choosing what you think should or shouldn't be in the Bible, then you are playing God... that is a scary position to put yourself in...
1 Cor. 6:9-
9"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
Yes, there is forgiveness for all who have been involved with these things, but we are called to come out of those things and live a new life... Like it says in verse 11: "And that is what some of you WERE"... past tense.


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## RandomDude

For a "pagan" like me, I find this thread most entertaining =)

Anyways there are many different forms of Christianity let alone other religions. If you don't like this church that has a lesbian preacher then don't go to it, but I wouldn't avoid the church altogether, it's like entering a temple or mosque or joining in an indigenious ritual as a tourist.

There are many churches that I don't personally agree with, one being the missus' church, but I still attend it with her from time to time just to keep her company (even if I seem to be attacked as "demon worshipper" - lol from time to time)

There are also many different interpretations of the bible, the missus herself has her own, whose beliefs seem to be shared with only very few other christians. I don't mind it myself even though I'm "pagan".

You don't have to adopt the faith, or believe what they tell you, but tolerance is something that should most definitely be practised when it comes to other belief systems. Even though the bible itself doesn't preach tolerance directly it does preaches love, forgiveness, compassion and harmony.


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## Almostrecovered

I think what most people don't realize is how much that they pick and choose to what to follow in the bible. The whole anti-gay movement based on the bible stems from 2 whole sentences in the bible out of 800+ pages. There is a TON of stuff that the bible says is wrong or should be done that no one today even follows or rallies that is a sin. (a good example is that the bible states that hitting your kids is good for punishment, not too many people are pushing for kids to be beaten with a rod)


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## RandomDude

Not to mention the intolerance for foreskins! :rofl:

How come there's no anti-foreskin movement? lol people pick what they want from the bible it seems to justify their OWN intolerance. Still... I want to see them parade around protesting against foreskins! Now that would be a sight on the news!


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## unbelievable

The qualifications for a Christian minister are very clear and found in 1st Timothy and again in Titus.


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