# Need help for a friend who is OM



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

A couple of months ago, a friend of mine befriended a MW in a class they took together for a state license exam. They sat next to each other, ate lunch together, etc and started seeing each other outside of class. 

She is married, with two children - one from H1 and another from H2. The claim is she loved H1 but he did not want children, could not be responsible. H2 loved her, wanted to take care of her, but she's never been in love with him. Allegedly, they sleep in separate beds and have not touched in years. Kids are both in HS and marriage is described as being on paper only, loveless from her side of things. Apparently H2 loves her. They had divorced several years ago, then remarried "for the children". 

OM is single, never married, early 40's - has had his share of heartbreaks over the years and is seeing how this plays out. They've kissed, other stuff (climax but no sex I am told), seen each other a few times at a restaurant, his house, etc. Claims those aren't dates - "well I could see how you might call those dates, but we shy away publicly due to circumstances". I point out he's in an affair, and it's the same thing: "well, I suppose technically it's an affair but since they are in a loveless marriage, etc.". He thinks both WW and BH are weak because they've allowed this "sham of a marriage" to continue. He also claims he is not in love, but intrigued, and would not necessarily let this A get in the way of meeting other people. The WW appears to be getting more emotionally attached. Currently, her "plan" is to start some sort of divorce proceedings at summer time, once school is done. 

He knows my past as a BH and thinks I'm projecting. That my experience has warped my mind and I am not able to see shades of grey. I point out what I see as rationalizations, hypocrisies and selfishness, but all in all he seems fine with what he's doing and that he doesn't need moral approval. He's in general a good guy who will do a lot for others, but has had dalliances with MW's in the past and thinks a lot of people are in marriages they shouldn't be in. 

We've been back and forth over this. I don't think he wants to verify WW's claims, and he believes trust is necessary. He's willing to take the risks. I've pointed out that the health and welfare of others is on the line, too, but he appears to think they'd be better off divorced. A few of us have told him to stay out and let her end it on her own, which I think he originally discussed with her, but I feel his principles slipping as she's clearly got him convinced of her story. It's to the point where I have to ask if he thinks they don't eat meals together, see family together, etc. 

I think if he had some evidence that she was lying - e.g. pics of her and hubby in some kind of loving embrace, it would change his mind entirely. Maybe. I don't even know. Any advice? No, I am not going to tell the BH or anything like that.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

staystrong said:


> A couple of months ago, a friend of mine befriended a MW in a class they took together for a state license exam. They sat next to each other, ate lunch together, etc and started seeing each other outside of class.
> 
> She is married, with two children - one from H1 and another from H2. The claim is she loved H1 but he did not want children, could not be responsible. H2 loved her, wanted to take care of her, but she's never been in love with him. Allegedly, they sleep in separate beds and have not touched in years. Kids are both in HS and marriage is described as being on paper only, loveless from her side of things. Apparently H2 loves her. They had divorced several years ago, then remarried "for the children".
> 
> ...


Get better friends.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Get better friends.


He's a long-time friend and helped through my ordeal. I'm thinking of ways to get him to view red flags where he does not seem them now. He's accepted her past, that she's flawed, but he's still intrigued. It's selfishness, granted, he knows it. I don't think he's incapable of backing out of this, but I think he would need to see some sort of evidence or see the script predicted ahead of time. It'a annoying how much he texts her. I'm willing to believe they do sleep in separate rooms - either that or she is in the guest room.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

staystrong said:


> He's a long-time friend and helped through my ordeal.


And yet he didn't seem to learn much from it.



staystrong said:


> I'm thinking of ways to get him to view red flags where he does not seem them now. He's accepted her past, that she's flawed, but he's still intrigued. It's selfishness, granted, he knows it. I don't think he's incapable of backing out of this, but I think he would need to see some sort of evidence or see the script predicted ahead of time. It'a annoying how much he texts her. I'm willing to believe they do sleep in separate rooms - either that or she is in the guest room.


Just make sure that you're there to say, "Hmm... told ya so."


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Just make sure that you're there to say, "Hmm... told ya so."


To be honest, my greater concern is for that of the BH and the children involved. I am concerned about my friend, of course, but he's not innocent in this. I was hoping there was some silver bullet test to rooting out the truthfulness of WW's claims. If she were having sex with her H, or even kissing, or something, it might start to dawn on him that all is not as stated. If indeed that is the case. He's morally relativist about it, but if he caught her in a lie, it could be damaging to what they have. it's hard to say how emotionally invested he is. He's not claiming a soul mate experience or anything like that.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

That's all you got, Gus? I thought you might have some innovative ideas!


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Probably not a loveless marriage, at least not in the husband's eyes. They sleep in separate beds, loveless marriage... All this told by her but unverified. Your friend eats it up. She tells him this so she doesn't look like a tramp in his (her new lover's) eyes.

She's a train wreck. Divorced H1' Divorced H2, remarry H2, but doesn't love him. 

Does your friend have difficulty meeting women? Trouble getting laid?

And hopefully hubby isn't a gun enthusiast.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

staystrong said:


> To be honest, my greater concern is for that of the BH and the children involved. I am concerned about my friend, of course, but he's not innocent in this. I was hoping there was some silver bullet test to rooting out the truthfulness of WW's claims. If she were having sex with her H, or even kissing, or something, it might start to dawn on him that all is not as stated. If indeed that is the case. He's morally relativist about it, but if he caught her in a lie, it could be damaging to what they have. it's hard to say how emotionally invested he is. He's not claiming a soul mate experience or anything like that.


Tell him that he should urge his lover to reveal their affair to her husband. After all, if everything is as she claims, it should be relatively easy for her to do that... right? Tell him that he should refuse to carry on in any sort of relationship w/ her until she does this.

Or wait... would he no longer be interested in her if all of a sudden he had to accept her children and whatever emotional baggage from two failed marriages she will doubtlessly bring w/ her as part and parcel of an ongoing relationship w/ her?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

staystrong said:


> That's all you got, Gus? I thought you might have some innovative ideas!


I find it easier to advise those who are dealing w/ the pain intrinsic to the betrayal of infidelity than I do those who are complicit -- and unabashedly so -- in inflicting said pain.

I mean... it's not like your friend is some sort of container into which any random passerby can pour decency, honor, morality, or a sense of personal accountability.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

staystrong said:


> A couple of months ago, a friend of mine befriended a MW in a class they took together for a state license exam. They sat next to each other, ate lunch together, etc and started seeing each other outside of class.
> 
> She is married, with two children - one from H1 and another from H2. The claim is she loved H1 but he did not want children, could not be responsible. H2 loved her, wanted to take care of her, but she's never been in love with him. Allegedly, they sleep in separate beds and have not touched in years. Kids are both in HS and marriage is described as being on paper only, loveless from her side of things. Apparently H2 loves her. They had divorced several years ago, then remarried "for the children".
> 
> ...


How would he verify her claims? He is buying the story hook, line and sinker. If ya had pictures for instance she would just spin anything and your friend would believe it. 

Whether her marriage is perfect or in the tank, she is married. He has justified his behavior to himself and your probably never going to "convince" him otherwise.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

He is single, never married in his 40's and involved with a MW and it isn't the first time. He is a commitment phobe, and no morals.


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## tidnab (Mar 7, 2015)

honcho said:


> Whether her marriage is perfect or in the tank, she is married.


And that really is all that matters here and should be the final word because everything else is simply superfluous.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

staystrong said:


> That's all you got, Gus? I thought you might have some innovative ideas!


Tell the husband. Mind blowningly innovative

*drops the mics and exits stage left*


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Here's all you need to know my man. Pay special attention to the last six words.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> He is single, never married in his 40's and involved with a MW and it isn't the first time. He is a commitment phobe, and no morals.



This. Probably can't keep a decent woman so he has to resort to trash.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## leon1 (Sep 3, 2014)

I dont think it would matter if you had proof , i think your friend would have an excuse and continue to see her .


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Cheaters lie. I guarantee that the MW's relationship status isn't as dormant as she is leading your friend to believe. There is no cake in this for your friend because she already ate it, and the trail of crumbs is her track record of two failed marriages - she puts no value in her vows, nor has she negotiated an open marriage with her H or else she would have explicitly stated this - instead she is sneaking around and deceiving her husband and family members. She's also a horrible mother for deliberately making choices that are destructive to the home.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

leon1 said:


> I dont think it would matter if you had proof , i think your friend would have an excuse and continue to see her .


Out of 10 single guys in their 30-40, how many do you think would walk away from this "opportunity" of the most sex for the least amount of commitment and money?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Your friend is in this picture. He is the one being played, perhaps?


View attachment 33954


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> Out of 10 single guys in their 30-40, how many do you think would walk away from this "opportunity" of the most sex for the least amount of commitment and money?


Or he fell in love?

Which is how I met my wife, 26 years ago.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

kristin2349 said:


> He is single, never married in his 40's and involved with a MW and it isn't the first time. He is a commitment phobe, and no morals.


Commitment phobe - Not sure about that. He's had relationships which lasted several years but didn't go to the next step. One woman he wanted to marry, but it didn't work out. It was a heartbreaker for him. I think he's just willing to take the risk of being hurt again, and sees his role in this as benign, possibly helpful. He doesn't think they should remain married. He thinks it is a sham.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Or he fell in love?
> 
> Which is how I met my wife, 26 years ago.


He says they aren't having sex, but have done "other things". He may be protecting her, not sure. i don't think he sees her that often - she's at home during the nights with kids. He says he is NOT in love, but intrigued, thinks she's funny, interesting personality, looks, etc.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Your friend is in this picture. He is the one being played, perhaps?
> 
> This is my suspicion. I think it's possible she's done this before and is being extra careful.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

staystrong said:


> He says they aren't having sex, but have done "other things". He may be protecting her, not sure. i don't think he sees her that often - she's at home during the nights with kids. He says he is NOT in love, but intrigued, thinks she's funny, interesting personality, looks, etc.


Well, he could probably find all of that in someone who is not married with kids. Why in the world does he want to subject himself to all of the inevitable drama?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> Out of 10 single guys in their 30-40, how many do you think would walk away from this "opportunity" of the most sex for the least amount of commitment and money?


It's not about commitment or money. He has money and he is seeking commitment. 

It's two months in, apparently no sex yet. (See above)

My guess is if someone else turned his head, he'd pursue them. I think he's more reinforcing her belief that her marriage is a sham and she should do something to changed that. From his POV, they're probably waiting until the kids have left school.


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## beyondrepair (Aug 17, 2013)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Well, he could probably find all of that in someone who is not married with kids. Why in the world does he want to subject himself to all of the inevitable drama?


Selfishness, pure and simple.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

staystrong said:


> He says they aren't having sex, but have done "other things". He may be protecting her, not sure. i don't think he sees her that often - she's at home during the nights with kids. He says he is NOT in love, but intrigued, thinks she's funny, interesting personality, looks, etc.


He is in love, but denying it, I think.



> she's funny, interesting personality, looks, etc


= In love.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

leon1 said:


> I dont think it would matter if you had proof , i think your friend would have an excuse and continue to see her .


I don't think so. I think if he had damning evidence that she was lying, he'd end it. He's said that from the start and we'd hold him to to that. I think the idea that he's been fairly open about this indicates that he's not holding this as a giant mind-blowing affair of which he can't let go.


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

The question in these kinds of situations is quite simple to ask, actually, and often impossible to get a decent response to:

Ask your friend if the husband has an ounce of an idea that the wife in question is "that" unhappy in the marriage. That unhappy, to go as far as to rewrite the marital history, to lie and to deceive. To allow a man other than her husband in her personal space.

The woman saying "I'm in a loveless marriage, we sleep in separate beds" doesn't necessarily make it so. How does your friend know these facts for certain? How does he even know that they are divorced?

Go on, ask him.

Probable response you'll get is "That's not my problem to think about, she says she's unhappy and that's it. Back off."

As Gus pointed out, find better friends.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

verpin zal said:


> The question in these kinds of situations is quite simple to ask, actually, and often impossible to get a decent response to:
> 
> Ask your friend if the husband has an ounce of an idea that the wife in question is "that" unhappy in the marriage. That unhappy, to go as far as to rewrite the marital history, to lie and to deceive. To allow a man other than her husband in her personal space.
> 
> ...


Having said that, I worked with a woman who had the type of marriage described in this thread.

She kept offering her husband a divorce, he refused. But told his wife he did not mind her taking lovers if she wanted, as he didn't need sex. :scratchhead:


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

staystrong said:


> He says they aren't having sex, but have done "other things".


There's more to sex than PIV.



staystrong said:


> He may be protecting her, not sure. i don't think he sees her that often - she's at home during the nights with kids. He says he is NOT in love, but intrigued, thinks she's funny, interesting personality, looks, etc.


She sounds like a real keeper.

Oh wait... that's just crazy. After all, she's a married woman and is cheating on her husband.

Urge him to convince her to reveal the affair to her husband. Until their relationship is out in the open for all to see, he has no way of knowing whether or not everything that she's told him about her husband and marriage is true. Additionally, their relationship can't _really_ move forward either way.

And, honestly, even if that happens, all he'll have gained is a woman willing to cheat on her husband. What a catch!


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## PBDad (Apr 13, 2015)

Let him become H3. When H4 and H5 come along, his vision will clear. 

Apparently, your friend lacks in judgement, class and maturity. I'm just happy she's not selling any swamp land. Boy, he'd be pissed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

verpin zal said:


> The question in these kinds of situations is quite simple to ask, actually, and often impossible to get a decent response to:
> 
> Ask your friend if the husband has an ounce of an idea that the wife in question is "that" unhappy in the marriage. That unhappy, to go as far as to rewrite the marital history, to lie and to deceive. To allow a man other than her husband in her personal space.
> 
> ...


I think he thinks the H is willing to accept the 'loveless' union as long as it means they stay a family. The idea being they have companionate love, but no passion. I find it hard to believe that the H doesn't touch his wife AT ALL. No hand on her shoulder, peck on the cheek, etc.? Does my friend think there is absolutely no physical contact and they walk sideways down the hall when facing each other? Not sure. 

They aren't divorced. They are married, allegedly living in separate rooms. He claims to have seen the room via iPhone, but granted it could be a guest bedroom she snuck into.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I think he knows the H will be hurt, but he's minimizing the fallout in my opinion. I wish I knew who she was .. I might do some sleuthing. I really want to stop something before it mushroom clouds.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> He is in love, but denying it, I think.
> 
> 
> = In love.


When he first met her, he was super excited about her. I think he's curtailed that excitement visibly either because of other people's possible judgement, or because it's becoming more emotional on her side. I wonder if he's not annoyed with her. 

Sometimes I wonder if he goes for unavailable women because subconsciously he knows they probably won't leave. And because he gets to judge their relationship.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

staystrong said:


> I think he thinks the H is willing to accept the 'loveless' union as long as it means they stay a family. The idea being they have companionate love, but no passion.* I find it hard to believe that the H doesn't touch his wife AT ALL. No hand on her shoulder, peck on the cheek, etc.? Does my friend think there is absolutely no physical contact and they walk sideways down the hall when facing each other? Not sure. *
> 
> They aren't divorced. They are married, allegedly living in separate rooms. He claims to have seen the room via iPhone, but granted it could be a guest bedroom she snuck into.


I suppose it could be true, if the H is also having an affair.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Do you want to do this for your friend or for the BH? 

If you want to get more involved, do the basic checking - look at fb for her, the BH, and kids. Check Cheaterville. Check dating sites for her. Perhaps you'll find something that belies her story.

Otherwise, you can appeal to two character traits of his that he might not particularly like hearing about:

- He's a chump for believing the standard line from cheaters, 'We don't have a real marriage.'

- He is dishonorable. He is an interloper in another man's marriage and doesn't have the decency to care.

Generally, though, you can't easily dissuade someone who is lying to himself to be able to do what he wants. We all recognize the WW here as the cheesy Jezebel she is. He will most likely learn the hard way & you won't be able to affect any of it.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm just trying to sort out why you are so involved in this. I can't imagine you going so far as sleuthing just so your friend can "see the light." He'll figure it out soon enough. Personally, I'd wash my hands of the whole sordid mess. 

And then send him here to read some BS's threads so he can see the pain he is inflicting on another man's family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> I'm just trying to sort out why you are so involved in this. I can't imagine you going so far as sleuthing just so your friend can "see the light." He'll figure it out soon enough. Personally, I'd wash my hands of the whole sordid mess.
> 
> And then send him here to read some BS's threads so he can see the pain he is inflicting on another man's family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


With all due respect, I think just being a member here, and reading all the stories, would make one invested in this. I think I'd be the same way if I had a friend doing this.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Again, I would send him here to read the stories of shattered marriages caused by people doing exactly what he is doing. OP has tried seven ways to Sunday to talk him out of it, but the friend is trying seven ways to Sunday to justify it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

staystrong, 

I'm going to tell you something you probably are not going to enjoy hearing. So are you ready?

The MW is an adult and capable of making her own choices--including repeating the pattern over and over again of being unfaithful to her husbands (h1, h2, and then h2 again). You can't control her, and chances are about 100% that she'll do this again.

Your 'friend' is an adult and capable of making his own choices--even bad ones. You can not control him. There are no magic words to "make" him see it your way. 

In your own words your friend is relativistic, the morals of being sexual with a married woman don't seem to bother him, he has no big plan to be with her or commit to her, and this isn't his first rodeo. He's using her with no real plan to be responsible for her and her kids. He's been with MW before. So he's a player. 

It's a train wreck that we all see coming. But you can not force people to be moral or behave in a certain way or be someone of high quality and character. Some part of HIM would have to want to do the right thing, and that does not seem to be the case here. 

As his friend, if I were in your shoes, I would continue to say right out loud that you think what he's doing is VERY WRONG, that it's going to end in disaster, and he's going to destroy people's lives if he chooses to continue. Call it what it is (adultery) and don't back down from encouraging him to end it and do the right thing. But other than that, there's not honestly a lot you can do. 

I would suggest telling your friend that he had two options: HE can choose to notify the OWH or you will. I would set a timeframe (1 week or so???) and if he doesn't tell the husband, you tell him. Because in the end cheaters who want to cheat WILL...and affair partners who want to be affair partners WILL...but the loyal spouses deserve to be told the TRUTH so they can make choices about their lives based on reality.

It is within the realm of "conceivability" that it really is a loveless, open marriage, but I will betcha dollars to donuts that OWH is not aware that it's loveless OR that it's open.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

staystrong said:


> They've kissed, other stuff (climax but no sex I am told),





staystrong said:


> It's two months in, apparently no sex yet. (See above)
> .


You mean PIV sex because this defense didn't work for Clinton.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

staystrong said:


> He says they aren't having sex, but have done "other things". He may be *protecting her*, not sure. i don't think he sees her that often - she's at home during the nights with kids. He says he is NOT in love, but intrigued, thinks she's funny, interesting personality, looks, etc.


I think your friend is protecting himself from you.

He knows your experience, and is sweetening the story to make it less unpalatable to you.

You could do -perhaps- with a little righteous indignation when you talk to him.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

The history is that H1 and her split, and H2 arrived on the scene to take care of her. Apparently she didn't love him but welcomed being rescued. If true, that in and of itself is poor character, and my friend acknowledges that. I don't think he's trying to hold anybody up to a standard of decency here.. he believes that their marriage is an insult to relationships in some way. 

I'm not going to tell the BH. I don't know her or her last name. I would peek on FB if I did, though. 

He's a flirt, but not a player. he considers himself a male lesbian - a 50's housewife trapped in a dude's body. Except he's also very male: enjoys his golf, his bourbon, sex with women. He's a caretake of sorts, a white knight with a very unfiltered sense of humor, but also a judgmental/superior streak. He's intelligent, so he feels that gives him the upper edge. 

He knows how I feel about this, and that I am concerned for all parties. He thinks I am misjudging the situation, and that I won't take into account that some people do have this kind of arrangement. H2 loves WW, but she does not love him in that way and they haven't been intimate in years. I tell him there will be fallout, but he minimizes it .. defensively, I might add. 

I kind of want to keep tabs on it and not provoke him. I've called him out on it in front of others and he gets upset. So I'm trying other approaches. Personally, I think he's lonely, not in a great place in his life, and this relationship is interesting for him.. he likes to talk/communicate with people, and she does that with him. 





Affaircare said:


> staystrong,
> 
> I'm going to tell you something you probably are not going to enjoy hearing. So are you ready?
> 
> ...


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> I'm just trying to sort out why you are so involved in this. I can't imagine you going so far as sleuthing just so your friend can "see the light." He'll figure it out soon enough. Personally, I'd wash my hands of the whole sordid mess.
> 
> And then send him here to read some BS's threads so he can see the pain he is inflicting on another man's family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again, he doesn't see this is as invading a marriage, because he did not try to ply her to date him knowing that she had a "normal" marriage. All of this is based on the cover story, and that's why I think evidence would be useful. If he saw a photo of them French kissing on the bench, for him that would be enough of a 'betrayal' to end it. The cover story would be blown - she's not what she said she is. He knows she must be lying to her H to see him, but again he does not value their marriage because it is apparently loveless.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

staystrong said:


> I think he thinks the H is willing to accept the 'loveless' union as long as it means they stay a family. The idea being they have companionate love, but no passion. I find it hard to believe that the H doesn't touch his wife AT ALL. No hand on her shoulder, peck on the cheek, etc.? Does my friend think there is absolutely no physical contact and they walk sideways down the hall when facing each other? Not sure.
> 
> They aren't divorced. They are married, allegedly living in separate rooms. He claims to have seen the room via iPhone, but granted it could be a guest bedroom she snuck into.


You realize that you are getting third hand information, from a source that is in it for punnany, and his source is justifying her affair by painting herself as the victim, rewriting martial history and likely brazenly distorting the real story. For all you know she fcks her H's brains out multiple times a week.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"I think if he had some evidence that she was lying - e.g. pics of her and hubby in some kind of loving embrace, it would change his mind entirely. Maybe. I don't even know. Any advice? No, I am not going to tell the BH or anything like that."

Why do you think that?

You have already shared that he has dallied with other MW in the past and didn't care.

Your friend sounds like a total POS.....don't worry, I have a friend that was like that too, though he is 'reformed' now.

I often told him that I hoped one of the BH's would find him and beat the sh*t out of him....and I meant it.

Even today, I tell him that if one shows up cause he just found out about the A, don't call me for help or look for any sympathy because he deserves anything they dish out to him.

My friend knows how I feel so he always made sure I never met or knew these women at all....I just heard about them from conversations in our group of friends.

If I had known who they were, I probably would have dropped an anonymous dime on his and the WW's a** by giving the BH a head's up.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Lon has a great post.

Why would you believe a word your friend says about her M, especially considering his only source for that info has to be her worthless cheating a**?

As far as you or your friend really know, they could be an otherwise apparently happily M couple and her BH could have ZERO clue his WW is a POS.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Lon said:


> You realize that you are getting third hand information, from a source that is in it for punnany, and his source is justifying her affair by painting herself as the victim, rewriting martial history and likely brazenly distorting the real story. For all you know she fcks her H's brains out multiple times a week.


Of course I realize that. My friend is not "trashy" .. he's not out looking to score punanny or make a conquest of a married woman, though he is a flirt and likes to give and receive attention. I think he's searching for someone special. I mean it. His version of special may not meet the general version. He wants love just like the rest of us do. For him, a broken marriage is not a barrier to entry. The fling he had with a MW was when she was separated (H found out, did not approve of course) but there had been an EA while she was thinking about it. She did go back to her H and they are still together, ostensibly happy. 

I do believe this WW paints herself as the victim. I pointed this out to him .. he thinks she made mistakes while young. She was married first in her early 20's and then again at mid-20's.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Also, he only met her two months ago. They didn't start seeing each other outside class until last month, and he's been on travel for two weeks. My guess is that sex is coming soon and then he will be even more protective of this relationship. And he may not tell us about the sex.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Again, he doesn't view it as cheating if she's not having sex with her husband. 

The hang up here is the loveless marriage. Same with WW1 .. she separated from her H, so it was deemed a failure in my friend's eyes. 

I don't know what he wants with these kinds of women. I think he likes being the emotional crutch and go to guy. It's a source of validation for him.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

staystrong said:


> The history is that H1 and her split, and H2 arrived on the scene to take care of her. Apparently she didn't love him but welcomed being rescued. If true, that in and of itself is poor character, and my friend acknowledges that. I don't think he's trying to hold anybody up to a standard of decency here.. he believes that their marriage is an insult to relationships in some way.
> 
> I'm not going to tell the BH. I don't know her or her last name. I would peek on FB if I did, though.
> 
> ...


He's rationalizing. It'd be an "arrangement" if -- and only if -- informed consent had been given by her husband; absent that, she's just cheating, and your friend is just another POSOM.



staystrong said:


> H2 loves WW, but she does not love him in that way and they haven't been intimate in years.


Blah blah blah.



staystrong said:


> *I tell him there will be fallout, but he minimizes it .. defensively, I might add.*
> 
> I kind of want to keep tabs on it and not provoke him. *I've called him out on it in front of others and he gets upset.*


Generally speaking, people get "defensive" only when attempting to defend an indefensible position. He knows that he's full of sh*t, hence the sh*tty attitude.



staystrong said:


> So I'm trying other approaches. Personally, I think he's lonely, not in a great place in his life, and this relationship is interesting for him.. he likes to talk/communicate with people, and she does that with him.


Nothing like a sex w/ a married woman to make a guy feel better about himself, eh?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

staystrong said:


> Again, he doesn't view it as cheating if she's not having sex with her husband.
> 
> The hang up here is the loveless marriage. Same with WW1 .. she separated from her H, so it was deemed a failure in my friend's eyes.


OK... then why not encourage her to (a) reveal the affair to her husband and (b) leave him...?



staystrong said:


> I don't know what he wants with these kinds of women.


LOL. I'm pretty sure I know.



staystrong said:


> I think he likes being the emotional crutch and go to guy. It's a source of validation for him.


Beta orbiter.


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## Welsh15 (Feb 24, 2014)

He is a selfish POS plain and simple. His actions show him to be of low moral character. He should be a man and tell her that if and when she tells her husband and moves out then he will have a relationship with her. Otherwise get the h*LL away from the marriage. Everyone should know the truth then and its all above board. He can then take on the role of surrogate father to her kids too, see if he loves all of that. I look forward to him loving being in the middle of the divorce process. Jeez.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Welsh15 said:


> He is a selfish POS plain and simple. He should be a man and tell her when she tells her husband and moves out then he will have a relationship with her. Everyone knows the truth then and its all above board. He can then take on the role of surrogate father to her kids too, see if he loves all of that. I look forward to him loving being in the middle of the divorce process


Word. If he wants the juice, let him squeeze it for himself.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> Or he fell in love?
> 
> Which is how I met my wife, 26 years ago.


Uhhh... no offense Matt, but, given much of the insight that you've provided w/ respect to your wife's decision-making abilities (or lack thereof) over the course of the past few weeks, I don't know that many here are dying to send "Happy Anniversary" cards your way.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

My prediction is that the WW will not want to leave her H unless she has my friend lined up. H2 left the house during first divorce, and if the A is revealed, it's unlikely he'd leave. My guess is this will drag on, with her weighing her options. That would make her a total B, of course, but typical. Assets would still have to be divided, children will be disturbed, the H will fight it I'm sure, and my friend will be put to the test. I think it has the potential of being very messy.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Uhhh... no offense Matt, but, given much of the insight that you've provided w/ respect to your wife's decision-making abilities (or lack thereof) over the course of the past few weeks, I don't know that many here are dying to send "Happy Anniversary" cards your way.


Where is that thread?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

staystrong said:


> My prediction is that the WW will not want to leave her H unless she has my friend lined up. H2 left the house during first divorce, and if the A is revealed, it's unlikely he'd leave. My guess is this will drag on, with her weighing her options. That would make her a total B, of course, but typical. Assets would still have to be divided, children will be disturbed, the H will fight it I'm sure, and my friend will be put to the test. I think it has the potential of being very messy.


But the point some of us are even making, is why are you even bothering analyzing this? Do you think what your friend is doing is right or wrong? Whichever it is how will YOU choose to approach your friendship with him? Most of us are telling you plainly what he is doing is wrong, but that's on him so why are you allowing this idiotic drama into your life?


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

staystrong said:


> My prediction is that the WW will not want to leave her H unless she has my friend lined up. H2 left the house during first divorce, and if the A is revealed, it's unlikely he'd leave. My guess is this will drag on, with her weighing her options. That would make her a total B, of course, but typical. Assets would still have to be divided, children will be disturbed, the H will fight it I'm sure, and my friend will be put to the test. I think it has the potential of being very messy.


A friend of mine is in near this same situation. Almost word for word the same story line. His fiasco has been going on for several years. The woman is always saying his horrible the marriage is and she is gonna file for divorce next month..... Always next month. It will never happen.

My friend said the same stuff if I catch her lying, its nothing serious, etc etc. Well he played the game long enough to develop feelings. He has turned himself into something he hated. The om.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

staystrong said:


> The history is that H1 and her split, and H2 arrived on the scene to take care of her. Apparently she didn't love him but welcomed being rescued. If true, that in and of itself is poor character, and my friend acknowledges that. I don't think he's trying to hold anybody up to a standard of decency here.. he believes that their marriage is an insult to relationships in some way.
> 
> *I'm not going to tell the BH*. I don't know her or her last name. I would peek on FB if I did, though.
> 
> ...


Of course not..be back when it gets to page 99. 

We can all celebrate 100 pages of getting nowhere


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Interesting. You sounds like a betrayed spouse defending and excusing their wayward partner. Sorry, this feels like an unasked "is this a toxic friend" thread.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Tell him this woman used to be Bruce Jenner.


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## tryingpatience (May 7, 2014)

Definitely a combination of third hand info. and him trying to rationalize his decisions. Like you said she needs something lined up first and your friend can't see that. I bet that even if you were able to show him that H2 and WW are still intimate he wouldn't see it.

H2 could be suffering right now trying to figure out why his wife won't sleep with him.

This one could go on and on. I'd find another friend.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

honcho said:


> A friend of mine is in near this same situation. Almost word for word the same story line. His fiasco has been going on for several years. The woman is always saying his horrible the marriage is and she is gonna file for divorce next month..... Always next month. It will never happen.
> 
> My friend said the same stuff if I catch her lying, its nothing serious, etc etc. Well he played the game long enough to develop feelings. He has turned himself into something he hated. The om.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So did he ever catch her lying? Is he still under the belief that there's nothing between the H and the WW?

I don't know if my friend will fall into that trap. Maybe. I think he would just get pissed off and end it. Or meet someone else.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Maybe another question should be ... how often has the "sleeping separate beds" line been true or false? Based on people's experiences here.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

staystrong said:


> I think if he had some evidence that she was lying - e.g. pics of her and hubby in some kind of loving embrace, it would change his mind entirely. Maybe. I don't even know.* Any advice? *No, I am not going to tell the BH or anything like that.


Has he asked for advice? 

You already said your piece - that you think it's a bad idea, that more than likely she carries on with her husband just fine and that he should end the appropriate relationship. Apparently your other friends have told him this, too.

Bottom line is: it's his choice what to do. It's his life. Unfortunately, as an outsider, all you can do is say what you want but realize, ultimately, it's up to him how he behaves.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Your friend is lowlife, end of story.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

I've been watching this thread and it gets funnier by the hour. You got a guy that's single, 40ish, a flirt, likes to give and receive attention, believes his intelligence gives him and edge, has a history of running with married women, and some of you are worried about him and how this chick is using him, lying about sleeping in separate beds and doing her husband multiple time a week. 
In the meantime, he's getting all the NSA, virtual free, poon this girl can throw at him. Face it, this old boy knows exactly what he's doing.
Why not just worry about Deontay Wilder getting his azz whipped in a bar fight?


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Don't make this friend's problems to be your problem.

If he wants advice from TAM folks, then he ought to come here himself.

But if he did? I'd tell him to stop screwing married women. The true story of her marriage is likely not even close to what has been told to him.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

staystrong said:


> He's a long-time friend and helped through my ordeal. I'm thinking of ways to get him to view red flags where he does not seem them now. He's accepted her past, that she's flawed, but he's still intrigued. It's selfishness, granted, he knows it. I don't think he's incapable of backing out of this, but I think he would need to see some sort of evidence or see the script predicted ahead of time. It'a annoying how much he texts her. I'm willing to believe they do sleep in separate rooms - either that or she is in the guest room.


Tel him to grow a set, knock on her door and talk to her H.

Then he will have the truth.

Does he really want to be Husband #3?


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"Same with WW1 .. she separated from her H, so it was deemed a failure in my friend's eyes."

staystrong,

You've been through this sh*tstorm my friend....so you know the level of depravity and lying that WS's and POS AP's will sink too.

Your friend is full of crap....pure justification....he has absolutely no idea if the separation is even a prelude to a D since he is not part of their M....how many times have we seen threads here where a WS asks for time and space to figure out what they want only to have the BS discover the A during the time apart.

The fact that you say the MW he told you this bullsh*t story about eventually went back to her BH and fixed her M should be evidence enough that your friend is a POS who justifies f*cking other men's WW's by telling those close to him about how its not really bad or even cheating cause the women's M's are bad already.

My friend used to try to say this sh*t too.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

staystrong said:


> So did he ever catch her lying? Is he still under the belief that there's nothing between the H and the WW?
> 
> I don't know if my friend will fall into that trap. Maybe. I think he would just get pissed off and end it. Or meet someone else.


He caught her in so many lies its a running joke now. He would dump her for a while then eventually she would say the rights things at it would start again. 

We tried several times to convince him this was a train wreck more than fun booty calls. He always had the answers you wanted to hear in beginning and it changed nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Janus (Apr 24, 2015)

I am still trying to figure out why it would be relevant if this woman is sleeping in the same bed with her husband or not. Married is married, and married is off-limits- unless your morality is conveniently situational. It's bull. I'm amazed at the mental contortions people will engage in order to convince themselves that they are not as dishonest and immoral as they are in reality. 

This is not at all a complicated situation. Your friend wants to screw married women. He is morally deficient in that area, and there's not much you can do to change it - despite the fact that you're more qualified than anyone- having worn both the black hat AND the horns- to give him sound advice. He's not listening, NOT because your experiences have you jaded, but because he's a selfish person that wants to have his way.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> I've been watching this thread and it gets funnier by the hour. You got a guy that's single, 40ish, a flirt, likes to give and receive attention, believes his intelligence gives him and edge, has a history of running with married women, and some of you are worried about him and how this chick is using him, lying about sleeping in separate beds and doing her husband multiple time a week.
> In the meantime, he's getting all the NSA, virtual free, poon this girl can throw at him. Face it, this old boy knows exactly what he's doing.
> Why not just worry about Deontay Wilder getting his azz whipped in a bar fight?


Unless he sees himself as a KISA? And it does happen.

Of course, most KISAs don't mind if they get their spurs polished whilst they are being chivalrous!


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Unless he sees himself as a KISA? And it does happen.
> 
> Of course, most KISAs don't mind if they get their spurs polished whilst they are being chivalrous!


I brought this up with him, and I think he is a KISA. 

I have another friend who says examine it on a "case by case basis". I think he's currently pining for a MW.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Of course, most KISAs don't mind if they get their spurs polished whilst they are being chivalrous!


One of the benefits of a KISA when you have the right damsel in distress. But like playing doctor when you're a kid. You know you're not a real doctor, but what the hell.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Your friend is a "male lesbian"? Okay, he has been munching carpet instead of having intercourse. But in the end her plan may be to have him take responsibility for her two children. How many men are up for that?

He is going to have real problems if he marries her.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Maybe another question should be ... how often has the "sleeping separate beds" line been true or false? Based on people's experiences here.



My husband and I were sleeping in separate beds throughout my 15 month affair. In fact, we had been sleeping in separate beds for the better part of a year before my A ever began. Not having sex with my husband, prior to my A, was due to his lack of desire, not mine. By the time my A began, I had already told my husband, and our children, that I was planning to get a divorce as soon as our youngest graduated from high school, which would have come 2 years later. 

During the A, I never needed to make any excuses as to why I was no longer interested in having sex with my husband, because he never once tried to initiate sex with me. So, when I told the AP that my husband and I were not happily married, were planning to divorce, and that we were not having sex, I was telling him the truth. 

But, despite all of that, the **** still hit the fan on D-Day. Not being happily married and/or not having sex, does not equal single, unmarried, and available, it equals married. If you're lying, sneaking around, and you and your spouse have not both agreed to an open marriage, you're still cheating.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

The typical woman involved in an affair is not having frequent, in any, sex with her husband. Again, let the ladies prove me wrong.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Lon said:


> But the point some of us are even making, is why are you even bothering analyzing this? Do you think what your friend is doing is right or wrong? Whichever it is how will YOU choose to approach your friendship with him? Most of us are telling you plainly what he is doing is wrong, but that's on him so why are you allowing this idiotic drama into your life?


My point exactly. Not going to tell the BH, what exactly is the point of the thread unless it's to divulge the salacious details of the affair and get everybody wound up.

Seems like a wind up.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Being friends with a guy like this is like befriending a scorpion and believing he will never sting you.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

staystrong said:


> Again, *he doesn't view it as cheating if she's not having sex with her husband*.
> 
> The hang up here is the loveless marriage. Same with WW1 .. she separated from her H, so it was deemed a failure in my friend's eyes.
> 
> I don't know what he wants with these kinds of women. I think he likes being the emotional crutch and go to guy. It's a source of validation for him.


Do you believe, if your friend was the BH, that he would still hold this line?...Nope

Soooo, the guy deployed for 18 months in a war zone (not having sex with his wife) shouldn't mind that his wife is having sex with others?

His argument is spurious, idiotic and very self serving. He's knows he's wrong and she's wrong....but odds are- being 40ish and never married- he's lonely, afraid of a bleak future and is willing to take the scraps she tosses him. 

If he is intelligent, as you describe, he knows all of this, but is too afraid to see it for what it is. Dangerous. So, when the betrayed husband shows up at his house, pistol drawn, what will he say when on his knees begging??? "But she said you weren't having sex???? Booo Hoo. 

Don't forget....most people are a composite of the 5 people they spend the most time with...is this guy one of your 5?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> The typical woman involved in an affair is not having frequent, in any, sex with her husband. Again, let the ladies prove me wrong.


Not all people in marriages are having as much sex as they would like. My XW were having sex 1-2 x a week which was 'sufficient' for both of us bot not at the level each of us probably desired. But we had full lives we were living together, not just stolen moments that AP's have. We're not simply animals, we're humans that supposedly love and care for one another. Obviously a balance must be struck between one's id and one's higher self. I don't understand sexless marriages, but I know it happens. Cheating in those circumstances is a bit more 'understandable' but still shows a defect in character or coping skills.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

MarriedDude said:


> Do you believe, if your friend was the BH, that he would still hold this line?...Nope
> 
> Soooo, the guy deployed for 18 months in a war zone (not having sex with his wife) shouldn't mind that his wife is having sex with others?
> 
> ...


He knows it is dangerous. He's willing to get his ass kicked, at least. 

Not sure I subscribe to your 5 person theory. I certainly know AP's have a huge influence on people.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Your friend is a "male lesbian"? Okay, he has been munching carpet instead of having intercourse. But in the end her plan may be to have him take responsibility for her two children. How many men are up for that?
> 
> He is going to have real problems if he marries her.


They are 14 and 16, so not much longer until they leave the house. 

He meant "male lesbian" philosophically, not sexually.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

honcho said:


> *How would he verify her claims? He is buying the story hook, line and sinker. If ya had pictures for instance she would just spin anything and your friend would believe it. *
> 
> Whether her marriage is perfect or in the tank, she is married. He has justified his behavior to himself and your probably never going to "convince" him otherwise.


this is something that I have been thinking about lately ..... and that is, how people "buy" stories because it facilitates what they want to do anyway.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"this is something that I have been thinking about lately ..... and that is, how people "buy" stories because it facilitates what they want to do anyway."

lol....this point reminds me of my American Political Theory class at the Naval Academy.

I remember my prof created a big stir in the class one day because he asked this simple, but profound, question.

"Do people develop principles first, and then act on them....or do they decide what they want to do or have happen and then create reasons to justify why this is the correct or right thing to do?"

My prof was of the opinion that, except for a handful of truly self-aware and enlightened people, the second case is the truth.

I happened to agree with him....still do.

But man did the rest of the class disagree strongly and profusely...some even got a little angry...lmao...one called him a communist and even wondered how he could be teaching at the Academy.

Most people do not want to accept this very unflattering view of the majority of people, because it suggests that even 'good' people are only so because they see a benefit to it...and if the conditions in their life changed, they would quickly develop excuses and reasons to justify whatever new choices or actions they wanted to make.


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