# becoming-okay-cheat-millennials article



## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Is it really as rampant as it seems or is it because the word gets around so much these information age days?? It's sad to see the numbers going down for people seeing infidelity as morally wrong, and wtf is with the French?? 
Some numbers say about 20% couples endure infidelity while other say up to 80%, who knows what it really is, what's more disturbing is that it seems becoming more ok....

As a BH succeeding with R now (4 years), from time to time I get this sense that am not helping the world by going the R route, that somehow am contributing to this trend, but is just a fleeting thought that doesn't cause any regret, after all it is a very highly personal and private decision which hardly affects anyone else, or that is really anyones business (and maybe hence the data being all over place?)


https://thesocialman.com/becoming-okay-cheat-millennials/


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## Hopeful Heart (Apr 23, 2017)

Hmmm, I don't get it. Seems nothing is sacred anymore. That settles it, I'm single forever!

Well, once my divorce is final lol

That is a deal breaker for me. I feel like most things can be fixed. Not that.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

What is morally right and what is morally wrong? For most people, morality is defined by what people around you feel is right or wrong. If the bulk of the population believes that something is not morally wrong, is it still morally wrong? 

I think hurting a person is wrong. But if the majority of a population feels that monogamy is not the standard for morality, then it will cease to be an expectation, less people will be "hurt" by it, and infidelity will no longer be immoral. 

BTW, I am a monogamous person. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*With the advent of the Information Age, IMHO, the incidence of infidelity and cheating has been slowly climbing; greatly to the point that in just the mere years to come, a faithful marriage will no longer be the norm, while infidelity will be the gross expectation in most all marital unions of the future! This is strictly because the social media both facilitates and embolden its, despite the noteworthy fact that carelessness in this endeavor can easily get one caught and convicted!

Given that sad, but prognosticational observation, I do not know about you, but I do not want to ever be considered a part of that more than sickening future ever again!*


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> What is morally right and what is morally wrong? For most people, morality is defined by what people around you feel is right or wrong. If the bulk of the population believes that something is not morally wrong, is it still morally wrong?


Uh, that's what the Dudes and Dames said in Sodom and Gomorrah.

They had a huge barbecue on the last day. They were the main entree.

A lot of Fried pork for the desert jackals to eat. Jackals got to eat a Lot.....Lot's wife was the table salt.

Humor aside, civilization cannot last long without strong family unity, family values.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

SunCMars said:


> Uh, that's what the Dudes and Dames said in Sodom and Gomorrah.
> 
> They had a huge barbecue on the last day. They were the main entree.
> 
> ...


That's only relavent for the religious folks. As for a strong family unit being vital to survival, I don't really believe that to be true. 

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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

TX-SC said:


> What is morally right and what is morally wrong? For most people, morality is defined by what people around you feel is right or wrong. If the bulk of the population believes that something is not morally wrong, is it still morally wrong?
> 
> I think hurting a person is wrong. But if the majority of a population feels that monogamy is not the standard for morality, then it will cease to be an expectation, less people will be "hurt" by it, and infidelity will no longer be immoral.
> 
> ...


^^This^^

My opinion, having spent a whole lot of time with millenials, I think many don't see it as taboo. They don't enter into relationships either expecting fidelity or granting monogamy. 'Monogamish' (see Dan Savage) is good enough for them.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I dunno what to think any more. 

who knows if more people are cheating or not. On one hand we have cheater dating sites like ****** ******* et al and with iphones and laptops etc your spouse could be swapping crotch shots and having sex talk with his/her AP while sitting on the couch beside you. 

But on the other we have greater technology to bust cheaters as well. So who knows if it's actually more or if people just eventually get caught and we hear about it more. 

I don't think it really has a higher acceptance rate, I just think stakes aren't really as high any more. 

In the good ol' days people would often lose their jobs and face public shame and ostracism if they got caught cheating. 
Women didn't work outside the home as much and were almost always awarded full custody of minor children, so the husband/father often paid out the wazoo in alimony and child support while the mother still lived way below her previous lifestyle, so divorce hurt both individuals and many chose to remain together and either turn a blind eye towards the infidelity or simply chose to live in misery. 

In various times and various cultures, infidelity could even be delt with publically through castration, mutilation, dousing with gas and set on fire, stoning, branding and various other forms or torture or even execution. 

Today shared custody is the norm and women working outside the home is the norm so in the event of a divorce, if there is alimony and/or child support, it is often less devastating and both people can usually live an acceptable standard of living as two separate households. 

Public shame and ridicule around infidelity and divorce are almost nonexistent in comparison to previous generations and unless the infidelity was taking place on company time and company property and blatantly against company policy, employers would most likely open themselves up for a lawsuit for taking action against someone's employment for something that they did on their personal time. 

People today simply have a lot more options today and people have more options to simply walk away from infidelity more than at any other time in history. 

I have even heard the phrase - "staying is the new shame" quite often. 

In our parents time and even still today a good number of people upon of infidelity will default to offering advice and encouragement on working out issues and working to remain together. The Wreckonciliation Industrial Complex is still making countless millions of dollars in trying to keep people together. 

But there is absolutely a growing trend of people having it be an absolute, no-discussion, walk-away, deal breaker and urging others to simply drop the microphone and walk away and move on to a new life upon discovery of infidelity and save themselves the time and money and anguish of trying to stay together in the face of infidelity. 

Does that mean that infidelity is more accepted? I dunno. It could be argued either way. 

In some ways I think infidelity is LESS tolerated simply because there are more viable alternatives that staying together.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> That's only relevant for the religious folks. As for a strong family unit being vital to survival, I don't really believe that to be true.
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


Children need guidance from 0 to 18 years old.

When children are raised by fools....they end up being fools.

You know why there is so much violence in the middle east and near east? Adults teach children to hate.

If you do not water and manage flowers and gardens, you get weeds and crab grass.

It is hard to retrain young adults on social etiquette, work ethics, moral ethics if chaos is rampant.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

SunCMars said:


> Children need guidance from 0 to 18 years old.
> 
> When children are raised by fools....they end up being fools.
> 
> ...


You are assuming that monogamy is somehow the only ethocal way to live. Many of these cultures that teach hate are also fiercely monogamous. Many cultures that are meek in comparison are not monogamous. It could be that people may evolve into a new way of surviving that is both not monogamous and also not chaos. 

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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

If both members of the couple are not expecting monogamy, then it's not cheating. It's only if there's a betrayal of trust that there is a problem.

If millennials are reframing their idea of marriage to not be automatically monogamous, that's fine, as long as both people are clear on their expectations. Eventually, all marriages will be for financial and parenting reasons, and not sexual fidelity.


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## Todd Haberdasher (Apr 23, 2017)

It used to be that you "courted" people who lived in your village. Maybe you went to church with them, or they lived next door. You had few options but as a result you were more satisfied with the one you picked, because you didn't know any better. It was like the school lunch room where you got to pick fish sticks or tuna sandwich.

Nowadays you have an all-you-can-eat buffet of every type of food on the planet, right at your fingertips. So if the pasta is just a tad undercooked, instead of cheerfully eating it, you dump it and get the salad. Or Chinese. Or a taco. Whatever you feel in the mood for at that very second, because that second is all that matters. Not every meal for the rest of your life.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> It used to be that you "courted" people who lived in your village. Maybe you went to church with them, or they lived next door. You had few options but as a result you were more satisfied with the one you picked, because you didn't know any better. It was like the school lunch room where you got to pick fish sticks or tuna sandwich.
> 
> Nowadays you have an all-you-can-eat buffet of every type of food on the planet, right at your fingertips. So if the pasta is just a tad undercooked, instead of cheerfully eating it, you dump it and get the salad. Or Chinese. Or a taco. Whatever you feel in the mood for at that very second, because that second is all that matters. Not every meal for the rest of your life.


Mmmm, taco sounds great! 

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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

I think its sad to see the traditional committed marriage fade away and even worse, in turn for more acceptance of infidelity, it makes me feel i was sort of fooled into marriage (not the loving relationship per say)
Where in the hell do you sign into a life long contract where there are no real violation consequences??? Seems absurd to me now. 
I mean look at it this way, your spouse could simply tell you up front that they are going out to some hotel to have sex w another person, and guess what? That am aware of there is no law that you can use to stop them from doing so, is there? In theory they dont even have to lie to you at all....yes granted you could leave them forever and all that, but you will get consequences as part of a divorce, prbly as much as them!! Is that some backwards @ss BS or am i missing something.
Yes am in R and we are doing good, but i tell her i no longer believe in marriage, is a joke to me now....i dont need marriage to stay in a loving relationship...

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## Secondguessing (Mar 6, 2017)

Everything is changing!
I predict that in 10 years, if a man or woman divorces their spouse because of infidelity, it will probably prejudice the judge against them. I see judges of the future labeling the BS who decides to divorce because of infidelity as immature.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I know a lot of millennials. And they are no ok with cheating. 

I guess if you pick those you poll carefully, you can get the response you want and write a nice click bait article about it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

From the linked article:

*"The study, which used data from the General Social Survey (GSS) to examine attitudes towards marital infidelity, revealed that historically, American adults were indeed at one point more disapproving of infidelity, with disapproval increasing by 20 percent from 1973 to 2008, and 84 percent agreeing it was “always wrong” for a married person to have sexual relations with someone other than their spouse. But in 2014 something happened: The staunch 84 disapproval rating suddenly gave way to 79."​*
So...

prior to 1973, ONLY about 64% of people polled said that infidelity was always wrong.

1973 - 2008, 84% said that infidelity is wrong. That's 20% more than prior to 1973.

2014 - 79% said that infidelity is always wrong.


So in 2014, a full 15% more think that infidelity is wrong when compared to 1973.

Seems to me that millennials object to infidelity more than people did in 1973.

Like I said the article is click bait, fake news.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Also read this: Rethinking monogamy today - CNN.com

Also keep in mind that it is not cheating if you do not have a rule about doing it. My wife and I lived with her girlfriend whom we shared. We wife swapped and I had a few girlfriends over the course of our 44 year marriage. Although we are now monogamous due to our age, we put our marriage ahead of monogamy. That is what is happening now. With more educated people knowing that we are genetically inclined to have multiple sex partners and knowing that having sex with someone else does not mean you love your spouse less. Sex can be just sex and not making love. When we were in our 30 year poly triad, there was no internet. As far as we knew, we were the only people doing what we did. Yet it felt natural. We were a good fit for each other and provided what no two of us could provide to each other. We never had a problem due to our triad. We never even had an argument with our shared girlfriend. It felt right and it was a great life together. More than we ever dreamed of.

Monogamy is a structure of society and religion to control us through sex. Look around the animal kingdom and you will find most mate with different partners all the time. That behavior favors the evolution of the species to deal with changing circumstances. Only animals and man, who have an organized society like the chimps do, have one mate and have sex for non reproductive purposes. Our sex life is controlled by the society we have built and how that society has defined marriage. The only reason having sex with someone else in modern times is the big sin it is, is because we say so. Pregnancy is preventable and low cost DNA test available. Use of a condom or testing before sex will provide a good measure of protection for both spouses. 

The way we look at it is that our marriage is not based on exclusive sex. It is about a commitment that we will grow old together and put each other and our marriage above all else. We were connected on a spiritual level, not just physical. You cannot argue with 44 years of a wonderful marriage. I realize it is not for everybody. Not suggesting that everyone become non monogamous. Simply saying that there are options other than divorce and more than one way to live your marriage. Of utmost importance is to place your marriage above monogamy. Instead of destroying a life you built together, there are other options that do not mean you love each other less or want to leave your spouse.


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## arobk (Mar 17, 2017)

EleGirl

Nice points. They don't give the margin of error in the polls so it is hard to say how much change may or may not have actually occurred.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> If both members of the couple are not expecting monogamy, then it's not cheating. It's only if there's a betrayal of trust that there is a problem.
> 
> If millennials are reframing their idea of marriage to not be automatically monogamous, that's fine, as long as both people are clear on their expectations. Eventually, all marriages will be for financial and parenting reasons, and not sexual fidelity.


*So what is remotely wrong with or abhorant about sexual fidelity within the confines of a marital relationship?*


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## Secondguessing (Mar 6, 2017)

@Vinnyd



> Instead of destroying a life you built together, there are other options that do not mean you love each other less or want to leave your spouse.


This is what I'm talking about - a shift in the way we think about cheaters. Before, it was unambiguously the POS WW or WH that destroyed marriage by cheating now the possibility is that the BS is destroying the marriage by leaving his/her cheating spouse.

Its Bullsh!t!


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SunCMars said:


> Children need guidance from 0 to 18 years old..


And most kids today need it until 25. My grandparents had adult / family responsibilities

by the age of 14-16 that kids today do not see until they are in their late 20s.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Secondguessing said:


> @Vinnyd
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The whole point is..... skewing the #s to make whatever point the author wants. 

Personally I have my own beliefs and really do not GaF what others think. Call me old school.

If 89% of TAM has a different view than I on...... anything, that's perfectly OK.

As long as my SO shares the same values about cheating / trust / parenting, even we can 

have differences on other issues. When families had to depend upon outside sources for survival,

(farming / industry) they gave up a great deal of independence. A history professor who taught Sub-Saharan 

Africa 1500-present told us one afternoon..... "The best way to defeat a nation, is to destroy it

from within. You will not even have to use a bullet or lose men."


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> You are assuming that monogamy is somehow the only ethocal way to live. Many of these cultures that teach hate are also fiercely monogamous. Many cultures that are meek in comparison are not monogamous. It could be that people may evolve into a new way of surviving that is both not monogamous and also not chaos.
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


It is easy to talk in absolutes. I am guilty of this...black and white thinking.

You are thinking "micro"; myself, both micro and macro, and the effects in raising and training our youth. 

I do not want our children to be raised in a commune, where most parents are in poly amorous relationships. Where parents eff many partners. 

Whose your Daddy? Who cares.

*On a small scale, a lot of living styles will suffice. Do this on a large scale, society will collapse. *Do not forget, we do not live in a vacuum. There are ~5.7 billion other people on the planet. We have to compete with them. And most are idiots and naive' and many, many are wacko crazy.

My concern is children who are raised with "anything goes" values will grow into adults with those values.
And those adults "often" will not be interested in holding a family together, a state together, a nation together.

This is a very perilous and dangerous world. We need guidance and boundaries to maintain helpful behavior. We need a structured society and culture. People cannot be left to their own devices. I know, this is an exaggeration, but not by much.

As Americans, we need to be a "team". One World Order will kill us all.

Remember, behavior first starts at home, then branches outward. I want society to pattern an Oak Tree, not that of wild weeds.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Regardless of trends, I think cheating is wrong. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with consensual non-monogamy. The first requires lying and deceit, while the latter requires honesty and integrity (or at the very least, a shared indifference to monogamy).

I wonder if the article is using the word "cheating" too broadly. Some millennials I know have very fluid, non-exclusive relationships, and are unconcerned with monogamy. Whether that will continue when they begin having children is something I haven't yet seen and can't predict.

As the article says: 


> what incentives are there to believe that the person you’re with is the person you’re supposed to stay with forever?
> 
> What evidence are we seeing of that? Hell, who says you’re supposed to be with one person in the first place?


I tend to agree with this.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

TX-SC said:


> What is morally right and what is morally wrong? For most people, morality is defined by what people around you feel is right or wrong. If the bulk of the population believes that something is not morally wrong, is it still morally wrong?
> 
> I think hurting a person is wrong. But if the majority of a population feels that monogamy is not the standard for morality, then it will cease to be an expectation, less people will be "hurt" by it, and infidelity will no longer be immoral.
> 
> ...


What you are talking about is moral relativity -- there IS such a thing as absolute right and wrong. 
I don't see how ANYONE could justify cheating in ANY WAY.

"well you know everyone's doing it" -- BS
"it's just sex" - BS

Just because others think it's ok, doesn't make it right. Our society is tanking because of this type of thought/morality. Many millenials don't have ANY respect for anything, including themselves. There are many that DO as well..


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Is it really as rampant as it seems or is it because the word gets around so much these information age days?? It's sad to see the numbers going down for people seeing infidelity as morally wrong, and wtf is with the French??
> Some numbers say about 20% couples endure infidelity while other say up to 80%, who knows what it really is, what's more disturbing is that it seems becoming more ok....
> 
> As a BH succeeding with R now (4 years), from time to time I get this sense that am not helping the world by going the R route, that somehow am contributing to this trend, but is just a fleeting thought that doesn't cause any regret, after all it is a very highly personal and private decision which hardly affects anyone else, or that is really anyones business (and maybe hence the data being all over place?)



I don't think cheating is going up, honestly.... It's a timeless sin.

I just think betrayed are becoming more gutless and codependent.

They should rename the article, _"Is it becoming okay to be a doormat?"_

I mean you literally see hundreds of excuses on the CWI forum for why they stick around.

And I've yet to read a single valid one. Just self rationalizations of their own personal weaknesses.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Cheating has certainly been going on since Helen of Troy, and probably a LOT longer than that. People have also complained about declining public morals since ancient Rome, or again probably much longer ago.

I don't see any clear evidence that morality is decreasing (or increasing), I think people are just people. 

BTW - open marriages are not cheating - if the partners agree, then no one is deceiving anyone (except possibly themselves).


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

jlg07 said:


> What you are talking about is moral relativity -- there IS such a thing as absolute right and wrong.
> I don't see how ANYONE could justify cheating in ANY WAY.
> 
> "well you know everyone's doing it" -- BS
> ...


To be clear, I certainly am not justifying or condoning cheating. What I am saying is that what we consider cheating is changing, with polyamory and open relationships becoming more acceptable, our notions of "morally right or wrong" may shift with it. 

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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> And I've yet to read a single valid one. Just self rationalizations of their own personal weaknesses.


thats over-generalized statement, there are literally an infinite number of combination of factors that relate to infidelity and its outcome, you cannot possibly have heard of all of them or even understood them, to make a determination that anyone is weak because of deciding to stay. I am certainly pretty well aware weakness was nothing that I felt during my decision.

I personally weighed-in all the impacts from D (which were pretty high to me, including lifetime alimony...yes ,think and read that one more time "LIFETIME") and many other factors including her behaviour and actions after the A, and a myriad other things.....but ultimately I decided to R because I still love her and believe she made a horrible set of decisions, but still a good person in general.....but you are welcome to your opinion of course (thou thats borderline accusation/insult TBH)


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

TX-SC said:


> To be clear, I certainly am not justifying or condoning cheating. What I am saying is that what we consider cheating is changing, *with polyamory and open relationships becoming more acceptable, our notions of "morally right or wrong" may shift with it.*
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


IF the folks involved think that being in an open relationship/polyamorous is ok and agreed to, then that is NOT cheating (still not my cup of tea, but to each his/her own...). I was specifically addressing the the morality of cheating. I also don't want to parse the word -- it's pretty clear to ME what cheating is, but others may have a different idea as to what they consider cheating..


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> thats over-generalized statement, there are literally an infinite number of combination of factors that relate to infidelity and its outcome, you cannot possibly have heard of all of them or even understood them, to make a determination that anyone is weak because of deciding to stay. I am certainly pretty well aware weakness was nothing that I felt during my decision.


Well if you want to factor in circus midget stories or something else outlandish then I guess I haven't "heard them all" but I've heard all the usual excuses time and again (e.g. staying for the kids, financial reasons, still in love, too old to start over, don't want to be alone, I made him/her cheat, etc. etc. etc.) 



CantBelieveThis said:


> I personally weighed-in all the impacts from D (which were pretty high to me, including lifetime alimony...yes ,think and read that one more time "LIFETIME") and many other factors including her behaviour and actions after the A, and a myriad other things.....but ultimately I decided to R because I still love her and believe she made a horrible set of decisions, but still a good person in general.....but you are welcome to your opinion of course (thou thats borderline accusation/insult TBH)


I can see why you would think that. No one wants to be told they are perceived as weak. That's fair enough. It's my opinion and of course in your world that should mean jack squat as it ought to. But I should be allowed my opinion as you are yours. If you want to believe that good people cheat sometimes, that's fine. If you want to love someone who didn't respect enough not to turn to another man, that's fine. If you would rather tolerate betrayal than have to write an alimony check then that's fine. It's your life, do whatever you want.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

I agree with you for the most part, betrayal sucks and is unexcusable, period, you have every right to leave and end it and i woulndt think any less or more of anyone from doing so, its a totally private and very personal decision thats not of anyones business really. 
However am puzzled as to why do you feel there is a need to claim those that R are weak? What do you gain from doing so?
I dont have any beef w anyone here or you per say, i actually enjoy reading your posts and everyone elses even if i dont agree with it, is just curiosity really. 

I could also make a counter-argument to yours that those that leave and D have no empathy, no tolerance for dealing with flawed human nature and could be even selfish for only caring about their own life.....but actually i dont ever say that or even believe it because thats just an example am making, not something i truly believe. I personally dont feel any need or gain anything from generalizing attributes of people that were already betrayed to begin with, they have enought to deal with whichever path they choose.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

arbitrator said:


> *So what is remotely wrong with or abhorant about sexual fidelity within the confines of a marital relationship?*


I didn't say anything was wrong with it.

When you think about it, there are three kinds of marriages. They are faithful, involuntarily nonmonogamous (ie, someone's cheating), or open.

To earlier generations, marriage comes with built in monogamy expectations. Open marriages are a rare exception.

What I took the article to be saying is that the current young generation, millennials, are defaulting to thinking of marriages as being open. A monogamous marriage may eventually become the rare exception if future generations follow the millennials' thinking.

The headline is just sensationalist, making you think millennials approve of cheating. Cheating is another sort of thing altogether, with deception and lack of trust, which nobody wants in a marriage. Nobody likes to be lied to and used, millennials included.

Frankly, I think their way of thinking will lead to less of the involuntarily nonmonogamous type of marriage, which is a good thing.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I didn't say anything was wrong with it.
> 
> When you think about it, there are three kinds of marriages. They are faithful, involuntarily nonmonogamous (ie, someone's cheating), or open.
> 
> ...



Thank you, open and will never marry millenial here.

Even so, there is this weird perception that we just sleep with anyone, anytime. Honestly, it is about 3-5 extra partners per year for several days at most. Even so, I think I have a healthy mentality to go with it. I already have a view if a relationship fails, move on. Evaluate each relationship. Work on flaws or find someone else that will accept my quirk. To be honest, I beleive a majority of people will stay monogamous due to teh factor that most people are possessive. About half the populations has the gene that promotes promiscuous behavior. Fun fact, females are just as possessive if not more than males. Lesbians are twice as likely to be married than homosexual males. Gay men are twice as likely to be in an open relationship. These numbers are pretty much universal from country to country which i found fascinating. It tends to be the male partner in a heterosexual relationship to open the marriage which nicely correlates that males in general will open a relationship whether bi, straight or gay. We jsut vary widely in our mating behavior as humans.

And if I do lose my gf to another man someday, I simply move on and date multiple women. I have a lot of confidence in myself. I know I can be happy with someone else. Perhaps I could be happier, perhaps not, as long as I am happy with the person I am with.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Lila said:


> ^^This^^
> 
> My opinion, having spent a whole lot of time with millenials, I think many don't see it as taboo. They don't enter into relationships either expecting fidelity or granting monogamy. 'Monogamish' (see Dan Savage) is good enough for them.


I give up on my else-wise Texan buddy.

Now, for you to sidle up to him tells me that all's not well in Amarillo. 

To agree with his responding post tells me that "youse and he" live for today. Let tomorrow live on its own, nary a plan or a solid foundation shall you lay.

Take that......................................................................lightly. No fighting allowed. Miss @EleGirl will lop off our jutting tongues.


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## maritalloneliness (Mar 18, 2015)

I'm the aunt of several millennials and I find it fascinating to see how their ideas and opinions are shaping their lives. Every generation contribute to the ideals of our society. 
With that being said I think most people involve in a committed relationship will say it's wrong to cheat because you are not independent when your part of a couple. What you choose to do will ultimately affect your partner because he/she isn't privy to your decision to shag another. Thus the betrayal. It takes much strength of character to have an open discussion about wanting out of a relationship then to cheat as alot of cheaters want their cake and eat it too notion.
It was shocking to me when my niece informed me that a lot of her friends were hooking up as compared to being girlfriend or boyfriend. Needless to say, I proceeded to impart my opinion that sharing your body with someone has consequences and no matter how careful you are.
Cheating and reconciliation remain a strongly individual choice and the millennials will come up with their own ideas about adding to our societal norms but I think it's important to have open discussions with them so they can appreciate that their opinions are not the only one. 



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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> However am puzzled as to why do you feel there is a need to claim those that R are weak? What do you gain from doing so?
> I dont have any beef w anyone here or you per say, i actually enjoy reading your posts and everyone elses even if i dont agree with it, is just curiosity really.


I don't gain anything. I'm just voicing my opinion. Isn't that why we are all on an advice forum? I truly believe YOU (yes you personally) and almost everyone else who stayed with a cheater, CHEATED YOURSELVES out of a better life. 

You DESERVED a BETTER spouse. A loyal spouse and unquestionably she is out there looking for an awesome guy like you. Instead, you stayed because of (insert invalid reason/excuse here). 

You can disagree that's fine. You can bloviate about how she's worth the pain etc. There's really no way to ever know for certain whose right because you stayed and SETTLED for her so it is what it is. 

I wish you luck. I think you took a crap deal because you were afraid and I would rather you have rolled the dice and won. My two cents. We all have our own lives to lead. Who cares what I think after all? I'm just a random dude on the internet.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Is it really as rampant as it seems or is it because the word gets around so much these information age days?? It's sad to see the numbers going down for people seeing infidelity as morally wrong, and wtf is with the French??
> Some numbers say about 20% couples endure infidelity while other say up to 80%, who knows what it really is, what's more disturbing is that it seems becoming more ok....
> 
> As a BH succeeding with R now (4 years), from time to time I get this sense that am not helping the world by going the R route, that somehow am contributing to this trend, but is just a fleeting thought that doesn't cause any regret, after all it is a very highly personal and private decision which hardly affects anyone else, or that is really anyones business (and maybe hence the data being all over place?)


There is a lot of changing culture. Sex and sexuality are everywhere. There are expectations that people are to be always sexually pleased by their spouse and that divorce is no big deal. 

Marriage is hard work. People don't like hard work or commitments these days. Look for example at how many young people change jobs every 2 to 3 years. It use to be people worked at a company for 20 to 40 years, now people who stay at a company 20 years are viewed with suspicion. 

Marriage is hard work and being committed to marriage, especially to raise children is still a very important foundation of our society. If you look at the problems associated with all the broken homes and children raised by overwhelmed single parents, you can see why marriage is important.

Don't feel bad about reconciling your marriage.

Good luck.


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## goingsolo12 (Mar 26, 2017)

This is a sad fact but I think most of the millennials do not hold marriage or relationships in the same regard as the previous generations and I think its because of the environment of the current world. Millennials are born in to a selfish world, everything is available on the click of a button and people now want more and more, for example lets look at mobile phones, you have a new iPhone launch almost every year so what do you do? you throw away your perfectly good iPhone which was just a year old and you spent many dollars purchasing and buy a new one, why? because its new, its in vogue, it doesn't matter if you need it or not.

What I am trying to say that as the days progress everyone is becoming more shallow and selfish and this behavior creeps in to relationships, we are not satisfied with anything, we just want more and we are not worried about the means to get it because we have been using dishonest means everywhere, in schools, at our workplace etc. Nothing is sacred, especially the institution of marriage. The selfish nature everyone imbibes today and the greed of wanting more also finds its way in to relationships, therefore you see a lot of millennials finding the notion of betrayal okay.

Just my thoughts.


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## goingsolo12 (Mar 26, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> There is a lot of changing culture. Sex and sexuality are everywhere. There are expectations that people are to be always sexually pleased by their spouse and that divorce is no big deal.
> 
> Marriage is hard work. People don't like hard work or commitments these days. Look for example at how many young people change jobs every 2 to 3 years. It use to be people worked at a company for 20 to 40 years, now people who stay at a company 20 years are viewed with suspicion.
> 
> ...


All of your points are extremely valid :smile2:


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

General opinion from millennials I know in real life is that they are not okay with cheating significantly more than previous generations that I know. In fact, I'd say that folk in the ~60-70's crowd seem much more okay with it. I think part of that is getting older and tolerating things you wouldn't have. Part of it is being the people of the 1960's and 1970's, who were trying to be edgy by rebelling against the family. Bunch of people with daddy issues.

Most folks want to have a person to grow old with. Most folks want to love and be loved. And they don't want to share. Just because Hollywood and "Higher Ed" preaches it doesn't mean most folks want what they're preaching. 

Consider this: the current crop of youths, age 14-17, are polling at drastically higher levels of conservatism than previous generations. More millennials and youngsters are polling today as wanting to have a traditional family, with a breadwinner and a homemaker. Things ebb and flow. Action and reaction.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

I believe that Sun and perhaps some others have mistated my views, or at least misunderstand what I am saying. 

Although we say that morality is black and white, it really isn't. It is very much determined by the culture and situation. Is murder morally wrong? Of course it is! Well, unless they killed someone first, or during war, or perhaps for some religions (think Aztec). Is theft morally wrong? Perhaps, until you are starving and have nothing to eat. 

Many people who cheat simply see nothing WRONG with it. They have a hard time understanding why this would hurt their spouse? It's just sex!!! 

I stated that I am monogamous, and so is my wife. I teach my children to be monogamous, both through words and deeds. I also teach them that cheating is wrong and hurtful. But, I can't guarantee they will never cheat. My oldest daughter (15) says she is pansexual. I can't guarantee anything. 

The concept of relationship morality ebbs and flows and in fact evolves. Marriage today is not what it was in 1700, 1800, or even 1950. 

Religion can only influence the morality of the religious. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Kivlor said:


> General opinion from millennials I know in real life is that they are not okay with cheating significantly more than previous generations that I know. In fact, I'd say that folk in the ~60-70's crowd seem much more okay with it. I think part of that is getting older and tolerating things you wouldn't have. Part of it is being the people of the 1960's and 1970's, who were trying to be edgy by rebelling against the family. Bunch of people with daddy issues.
> 
> Most folks want to have a person to grow old with. Most folks want to love and be loved. And they don't want to share. Just because Hollywood and "Higher Ed" preaches it doesn't mean most folks want what they're preaching.
> 
> Consider this: the current crop of youths, age 14-17, are polling at drastically higher levels of conservatism than previous generations. More millennials and youngsters are polling today as wanting to have a traditional family, with a breadwinner and a homemaker. Things ebb and flow. Action and reaction.


It may be the millennials are more shying away from M because they read threads on TAM.


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## WhiplashWish (Mar 20, 2017)

Brave New World by Huxley. I used to see that book as a warning. Now it's just a description of current society...


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

WhiplashWish said:


> Brave New World by Huxley. I used to see that book as a warning. Now it's just a description of current society...


110% agree. BNW is one of my all-time favs. It's right up there with 1984, Doors of Perception, Fahrenheit 451, and Abolition of Man.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> I don't gain anything. I'm just voicing my opinion. Isn't that why we are all on an advice forum? I truly believe YOU (yes you personally) and almost everyone else who stayed with a cheater, CHEATED YOURSELVES out of a better life.


Roger that, thou advice and judgement are different things in as far as i know.
I totally understand what you are saying, but its also certainly possible that in some instaces your opinion/judgement could be completely wrong and totally off base as well.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Millennials can think what they like until they're betrayed themselves. 
Then they have to go through the emotions just like everyone else. 
Human emotions are as old as time. Philosophies and belief systems ain't ever going to change them. 
Open marriages rarely work - because emotions become involved.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

I posted this earlier:

We are raised to believe that when we are one half of a couple, we should derive all our happiness and pleasure from that single partner and only experience it together with that partner. However, this belief breeds an almost viral tendency to take the other person for granted, to have huge expectations, and to deliver this all from a sense of duty and obligation — without a thank you!

In short, most expect too much out of a spouse and marriage fueled by what we see and read in the media. What many expect from their marriage is unrealistic and is reflected in our divorce rate. My wife and I feel that we are individual beings with divergent desires and/or needs that cannot be met by one person. We chose to be non monogamous, more specifically a poly triad with a woman we both knew since childhood and was already treated as family prior to joining our marriage. Often married couples destroy the life they built together because they chose monogamy over their marriage. We chose our marriage over monogamy.

Below are 3 more articles about choosing your marriage over monogamy. Due to our lifestyle most of our friends were in non monogamous marriages. You would be surprised at who is doing this. Our friends were scientist, doctors, lawyers, business owners, teachers, hair stylist and from all walks of life. We were shocked when we were first introduced to non monogamous married couples in our area. Every time we moved we found people like us. It is like pushing a curtain aside and finding a whole new world. I ask, why is everyone defending a marriage structure that fails 50% of the time. That is not a good selling point and yet most rather go down with the monogamy ship than find a new ship to stay afloat on. Anyway, here are a few more articles reflecting the increased interest in alternate forms of marriage. Monogamy is not a natural state of animals, including humans. That is why so many cheat.

Why My Husband & I Sometimes Have Sex With Other People - mindbodygreen

Rethinking monogamy today - CNN.com

https://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-25823/how-an-extramarital-affair-could-save-your-marriage.html


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

********** said:


> Millennials can think what they like until they're betrayed themselves.
> Then they have to go through the emotions just like everyone else.
> Human emotions are as old as time. Philosophies and belief systems ain't ever going to change them.
> *Open marriages rarely work - because emotions become involved.*


Yep..... same reason FWBs end up blowing up. Someone gets more invested... crap hits the fan.


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## Kerf (Apr 22, 2017)

Vinnydee said:


> I ask, why is everyone defending a marriage structure that fails 50% of the time. That is not a good selling point and yet most rather go down with the monogamy ship than find a new ship to stay afloat on.


If i want non-monogamy, i would stay single or non-exclusive.I won't get married.That's about the just of it.



> most rather go down with the monogamy ship than find a new ship to stay afloat on.


I doubt most marriages end because of problems that only non-monogamy can fix.What about abusive spouses?What about spouses that just "settled for each other" or "had to do the right thing"?

If the love is completely lost or was never there to begin with, opening up the marriage just to "stay afloat" is not the solution.



> Monogamy is not a natural state of animals, including humans. That is why so many cheat.


A lot of things are not natural to animals that us humans (literally) can't live without.Things like medicine, feelings of right and wrong and laws that prevent and protect us from just killing and stealing from each other.

Cheating happens.So does crime.You don't have to accept it.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Roger that, thou advice and judgement are different things in as far as i know.
> I totally understand what you are saying, but its also certainly possible that in some instances your opinion/judgement could be completely wrong and totally off base as well.


That is certainly your right to feel. Opinions are just that though, aren't they? There is no such thing as a right or wrong opinion because it's a completely subjective term. 

A verifiable opinion becomes a fact and is no longer subject to interpretation. I offer nothing more here, like everyone else, than my opinion and anyone is free to disagree or not.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Vinnydee said:


> I posted this earlier:
> 
> We are raised to believe that when we are one half of a couple, we should derive all our happiness and pleasure from that single partner and only experience it together with that partner. However, this belief breeds an almost viral tendency to take the other person for granted, to have huge expectations, and to deliver this all from a sense of duty and obligation — without a thank you!
> 
> In short, most expect too much out of a spouse and marriage fueled by what we see and read in the media. What many expect from their marriage is unrealistic and is reflected in our divorce rate.


I agree with this. Having very unrealistic, and unhealthy expectations in a relationship is likely to doom it. If you expect your spouse to make you happy, you're married for the wrong reasons.



> My wife and I feel that we are individual beings with divergent desires and/or needs that cannot be met by one person. We chose to be non monogamous, more specifically a poly triad with a woman we both knew since childhood and was already treated as family prior to joining our marriage. Often married couples destroy the life they built together because they chose monogamy over their marriage. We chose our marriage over monogamy.
> 
> Below are 3 more articles about choosing your marriage over monogamy. Due to our lifestyle most of our friends were in non monogamous marriages. You would be surprised at who is doing this. Our friends were scientist, doctors, lawyers, business owners, teachers, hair stylist and from all walks of life. We were shocked when we were first introduced to non monogamous married couples in our area. Every time we moved we found people like us. It is like pushing a curtain aside and finding a whole new world. I ask, why is everyone defending a marriage structure that fails 50% of the time. That is not a good selling point and yet most rather go down with the monogamy ship than find a new ship to stay afloat on. Anyway, here are a few more articles reflecting the increased interest in alternate forms of marriage. Monogamy is not a natural state of animals, including humans. That is why so many cheat.
> 
> ...


This is where you go off the rails. That something is a natural desire / occurrence doesn't make it a good one. I have a desire to copulate with nearly every woman in my presence. That is neither healthy for me, for them, nor for my relationship. But it's purely natural. Just like there's some evidence to suggest that a lot of men have a natural urge to eliminate the children of their rivals, just like gorillas. Doesn't mean we should engage in such behavior, nor that we should tolerate it. 

It's natural to die young from illness or physical. It's unnatural to take medicines and live long lives. But I wouldn't advocate someone refusing inoculations or penicillin. It's natural to live in caves and not houses, but I wouldn't recommend that life to anyone. It's natural to physically dominate other men, but again, I would never advocate for it. Much of what is natural is neither desirable nor good. 

It's natural to lie when scared of the consequences, but that doesn't mean integrity isn't a better option. 

The fact that you can't bring yourself to live up to your promises says nothing about whether or not men should do so, it only says something about your own character.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

I will let you in on a little secret. Non monogamous marriages were going on long before the birth of millennials. My wife and I were non monogamous for much of our 44 year marriage. We realized that no one person can satisfy all of our needs so we did a little wife swapping and soft swinging. When my wife no longer was interested in having sex with other men, we got into FFM threesomes and my wife's best friend formed a poly triad with us that lasted 30 years. 

Throughout our marriage we met lots of out married couples like us. All sorts of open marriage arrangements. Heck, our girlfriend even got married after living with us for 7 years and then split her time between us and her husband. She even dated other guys until she got pregnant by one of them. When AIDS came around we stopped seeing others outside of our triad. Too dangerous back then when little was known about how AIDS was contracted. We where amazed at who were in non-monogamous marriages. People you would never suspect. We were best friends with another couple for 3 years, seeing each other at least once or twice each week. They were swingers and asked us to wife swap with them and we did. We had no idea they were into that. Through them we met other neighbors who were part of their neighborhood swingers club. 

I think what has changed now is that back then you could not tell anyone because it could destroy your life in many ways. Back then no one, not even the gay/lesbian community recognized bisexuality as a valid sexual preference. My wife, her girlfriend and many of the wives of people we played with, were considered to be lesbians in the closet at a time when being not hetero had serious consequences. So we kept it on a need to know basis. Now, no one is going to fire you or disown you for being in a non monogamous marriage. It is more acceptable now than it was back then. Young people think that they invented kinky sex and us old timers were prudish and had sex fully clothed. We were kinky. We did all the stuff that young men and women post about wanting to do now. We just did not have an international platform to talk about it.

Monogamy is not the natural state of humans. Men are able to impregnate several women a day and women can orgasm all day long, every day. They do not stop enjoying sex when they get pregnant. The church was the catalyst in promoting monogamy but it was aimed at women, not men. Men had several wives back then. Sharing women was very common at the dawn of mankind. There was no marriage. Men shared the available women and vice versa. Society has incorporated religious beliefs into it for every culture. Monogamy was once very important when men did not want to waste their limited time and resources raising the child of another man. Women needed a man to stay with them to provide and protect themselves and the children. Monogamy was a good solution but not really needed anymore. We have DNA testing, birth control and artificial insemination. Women do not even need a man to have kids. They get their food from a supermarket and the police and military protect them. A lot has changed since ancient times.

For some reason people cling to a marriage structure that fails 50% of the time. Think about it. We are entering into lifelong contracts that are very expensive and devastating to break, knowing that we have a 50/50 chance of making it. Why is monogamy so much better than an open marriage when it has such a dismal success rate? We only value monogamy because that is what we were taught to do. We still feel we own our spouses if only to own the exclusive rights to provide them sexual pleasure, even when we cannot or will not do so. I am married 44 years. All of our monogamous friends are divorced, some more than one time. They thought we were immoral and yet they divorced despite it being against their religion. At least we were not hypocrites.

When you learn to love without ownership or expectations that your spouse will fulfill all of your needs, your marriage can be stronger and held together more than just for the kids or the expense and inconvenience of a divorce.


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## Kerf (Apr 22, 2017)

Kivlor said:


> I agree with this. Having very unrealistic, and unhealthy expectations in a relationship is likely to doom it. If you expect your spouse to make you happy, you're married for the wrong reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


QFT

Non-monogamy is fine for certain people, but you can't use the argument that one lifestyle is more "natural" while benefiting from all the other "unnatural" norms and goods of our society.




Vinnydee said:


> Monogamy is not the natural state of humans. Men are able to impregnate several women a day and women can orgasm all day long, every day. They do not stop enjoying sex when they get pregnant. The church was the catalyst in promoting monogamy but it was aimed at women, not men. Men had several wives back then. Sharing women was very common at the dawn of mankind. There was no marriage. Men shared the available women and vice versa. Society has incorporated religious beliefs into it for every culture. Monogamy was once very important when men did not want to waste their limited time and resources raising the child of another man. Women needed a man to stay with them to provide and protect themselves and the children. Monogamy was a good solution but not really needed anymore. We have DNA testing, birth control and artificial insemination. Women do not even need a man to have kids. They get their food from a supermarket and the police and military protect them. A lot has changed since ancient times.
> 
> For some reason people cling to a marriage structure that fails 50% of the time. Think about it. We are entering into lifelong contracts that are very expensive and devastating to break, knowing that we have a 50/50 chance of making it. Why is monogamy so much better than an open marriage when it has such a dismal success rate? We only value monogamy because that is what we were taught to do. We still feel we own our spouses if only to own the exclusive rights to provide them sexual pleasure, even when we cannot or will not do so. I am married 44 years. All of our monogamous friends are divorced, some more than one time. They thought we were immoral and yet they divorced despite it being against their religion. At least we were not hypocrites.



Just like there are asexual people that never want or need any sex at all, or people for whom sex simply isn't any kind of priority in their life and are too busy with work and other hobbies, there are also people who are perfectly satisfied with just a single partner.It's not that complicated.

Sure, if your only objections to non-monogamy are religious, that's another thing.But i am not really religious.

Half of marriages end in divorce, just like "my lifestyle is more natural than yours" isn't really a good argument. Like i said:



> *I doubt most marriages end because of problems that only non-monogamy can fix.What about abusive spouses?What about spouses that just "settled for each other" or "had to do the right thing"?
> 
> If the love is completely lost or was never there to begin with, opening up the marriage just to "stay afloat" is not the solution.
> 
> ...



Some people were just never meant to last.*They should get divorced*.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> That is certainly your right to feel. Opinions are just that though, aren't they? There is no such thing as a right or wrong opinion because it's a completely subjective term.
> 
> A verifiable opinion becomes a fact and is no longer subject to interpretation. I offer nothing more here, like everyone else, than my opinion and anyone is free to disagree or not.


I understand, thanks for your insight.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Vinnydee said:


> I am married 44 years. All of our monogamous friends are divorced, some more than one time. They thought we were immoral and yet they divorced despite it being against their religion. At least we were not hypocrites.


I'm not seeing the hypocrisy... 

The men who aren't okay with their women getting banged by other dudes get divorced.

The men who enjoy being cucks, stay married. Why would they divorce if they don't mind?

Also, if by religion you mean Christianity then the bible does say its okay to divorce in cases of infidelity.


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