# Men and getting engaged...



## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

My girlfriend and I were talking, and we were saying how with EVERY married couple we know, the wife had to give her husband a "gentle nudge"/pressure/hints/ultimatum/kick in the butt, etc. to get him to propose. We couldn't think of one couple where this wasn't the case. It seems like most men are very happy to date and would date forever if the woman didn't eventually nudge him to get engaged. So, is this true of you and your wife? Why do you think some men are so reluctant to propose, even if things are going well and they're very happy?


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

Well, I haven't proposed and don't plan to. We're fine as it is. 

However I do know few guys who pressed to get married ASAP. The main reason was traditional upbringing where parents brainwashed that it's 'time' to get married and have kids.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

This is definitely not true for everyone and I know several other couples, besides my own relationship, where the guy proposed without needing a nudge/push/hints/ultimatum. 

I don't know why some guys are afraid to get married, but I know my husband was never one of them. He was the one who brought up the topic of marriage when we were dating and we talked about what we wanted in our future. He was the one who secretly met with my parents and asked for their blessing to marry me, and he researched and picked out the engagement ring he thought I would love(he did very well!). He also planned out a very cute way of asking me to marry him, which I loved. 

The guys who are happy in a relationship and want to get married are not afraid of that long term commitment. I wouldn't want to ever date/be with a guy who was nervous to marry. Both my husband and I view marriage as important, so it was never something he was pushed into doing.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> It seems like most men are very happy to date and would date forever


Incorrect in my case all those years ago, I simply didn't want to get married until I was sure she was someone I could depend on with a lifetime commitment. I wasn't sure back then, and in a way I was right; our relationship dynamics/foundations were weak.

But when in panic mode, some men do stupid things.

I was already in an exclusive relationship with my STBX prior to marriage and I had no intention of dating elsewhere. I just wanted to be ready, to be sure, to be prepared, and to reduce the risks of divorce/heartbreak as much as possible. In my haste I've failed that miserably.

So hey, I say to men nowadays, don't ever let a woman pressure you into marriage, even if she rings the baby bells. You don't need a marriage to be good parents and marriage may even complicate parenthood as is the case with many.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Not true for me. Then again, I asked her to marry me 14 years ago and it might be a different feel. I secretly bought her an engagement ring and hid it at my Gram's house. 

On the day I proposed, I had the ring hidden in the couch cushion. We were watching a movie and I asked if she wanted something to drink. As I stood up, I knelt down beside her to give her a kiss and pulled the ring out from under the cushion.

She was totally surprised. She never nudged me at all. Heck, I even asked her Dad's permission to marry her.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

Not true for me, either. I proposed of my own volition.

I can't speak for all men, but there are many reasons, some real and some perceived, why a young man might not want to get married:
1) Knows he's too immature
2) Commitment of that level scares him
3) Not ready to settle down
4) Afraid of getting screwed in a divorce
5) Afraid of losing his freedom
6) Sexual exclusivity is not appealing to him
7) Afraid that his wife will take on any number of negative wifely stereotypes (nag, no sex, spends money, etc)

There are other reasons, those are the ones I remember feeling myself.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

She chased me like Tommy Lee Jones after a fugitive; like a starving mutt chasing a garbage truck.


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## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> She chased me like Tommy Lee Jones after a fugitive; like a starving mutt chasing a garbage truck.


LOL!


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Did you push/nudge/pressure/etc. your husband to marry you? 

Just wondering, between this and the other thread, how you feel about your marriage.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

Anonymous07 said:


> Did you push/nudge/pressure/etc. your husband to marry you?
> 
> Just wondering, between this and the other thread, how you feel about your marriage.


I was wondering the same thing. Sounds like maybe one of them was ready for marriage (or thought they were), and the other one not so much.


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## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> Did you push/nudge/pressure/etc. your husband to marry you?
> 
> Just wondering, between this and the other thread, how you feel about your marriage.


Yes, I gave gentle hints and nudges, but my H, being so inexperienced, said he never even picked up on them. He doesn't do well with subtle, that's for sure.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Laila619 said:


> My girlfriend and I were talking, and we were saying how with EVERY married couple we know, the wife had to give her husband a "gentle nudge"/pressure/hints/ultimatum/kick in the butt, etc. to get him to propose. We couldn't think of one couple where this wasn't the case. It seems like most men are very happy to date and would date forever if the woman didn't eventually nudge him to get engaged. So, is this true of you and your wife? Why do you think some men are so reluctant to propose, even if things are going well and they're very happy?


Not true in my case at all. Is this why you used sex to manipulate your husband into proposing (by cutting him off)?



Laila619 said:


> Yes, I gave gentle hints and nudges,


Oh, hints and nudges, is that what you call it? lol


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Wasn't my case, my husband was the one who wanted to get married (never pushed for it though).


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I was the one who held it off for years in our relationship, he would have married me at 18... I wasn't ready.... Of course this was 23 yrs ago now... less and less are getting married today, this seems to be the norm in modern society.


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## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Not true in my case at all. Is this why you used sex to manipulate your husband into proposing (by cutting him off)?


Nope. 

Very classy of you to bring that up though.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

That definitely wasn't the case in our relationship. We were living together and I would have been fine with that.

Hubs wanted the commitment. 

Funny thing, he didn't really 'ask' me to marry him. It was more of a statement - 'We're already making plans for the next few years, we may as well just get married already'.

'Are you asking me to marry you'

'Well, yeah, I guess I am'


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

With divorce rates, alimony costs, child support costs, infidelity percentages, sexless marriages, facebook exes, and walk away wife syndrome that might be the smart play.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Laila619 said:


> Nope.


Just seems like the logical conclusion. You were happily going along with your boyfriend, then you suddenly realized that he wasn't popping the question. So you told him you wanted to wait until marriage and you cut him off. Eventually he popped the question. It sure seems like manipulation to me. 



Laila619 said:


> Very classy of you to bring that up though.


You'll have to try a little harder than that. I'm not that easy to manipulate.


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## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Just seems like the logical conclusion. You were happily going along with your boyfriend, then you suddenly realized that he wasn't popping the question. So you told him you wanted to wait until marriage and you cut him off. Eventually he popped the question. It sure seems like manipulation to me.
> 
> 
> 
> You'll have to try a little harder than that. I'm not that easy to manipulate.


1) How does any of that pertain to this specific thread? 
2) Who cares, why does it matter or bother you?


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Laila619 said:


> My girlfriend and I were talking, and we were saying how with EVERY married couple we know, the wife had to give her husband a "gentle nudge"/pressure/hints/ultimatum/kick in the butt, etc. to get him to propose. We couldn't think of one couple where this wasn't the case. It seems like most men are very happy to date and would date forever if the woman didn't eventually nudge him to get engaged. So, is this true of you and your wife? Why do you think some men are so reluctant to propose, even if things are going well and they're very happy?


Well, I had an absolutely horrible 1st marriage. I willingly proposed, without being prompted, that first time. But, after two years of living hell... I wasn't interested in being married to anybody.

Then, I met my second wife. I was head over heels in love. I had badly misjudged my first wife. Made such a horrible mistake that I didn't trust my own judgment. Many, many times, I'd ask myself..."You love her? Yes!... Do you think you'll ever love anybody more than you love her? NO!!! Are there any areas of incompatibility? NO!... she's PERFECT!... So, what's the problem?" and I'd grimace, squint my eyes, wobble my head back and forth and moan like I was in pain... I bet I had that conversation with myself a couple times a day for 18 months. 

Finally, she wrote me a letter and gave it to me on a Friday after we'd finished eating at a dinner and she left. I could tell by the way she gave it to me that it was important. It was like 5 pages long. I read that letter the rest of Friday, all day Saturday and most of Sunday... wasn't sure what it said. Finally, Sunday evening I asked her to come over and let's talk about it. All she needed to do was write, "Dear hambone... POOP or get off the pot!" and I'd known exactly what she was trying to tell me. We got officially engaged about 2 days latter and married 10 days later. I love her so much.. and was so happy to finally be married to her.. It was a dream come true. I just need that nudge.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Laila619 said:


> 1) How does any of that pertain to this specific thread?
> 2) Who cares, why does it matter or bother you?


what????

Come on, it's exactly on point with the original post in this thread! Read what you wrote again. You and your girlfriend's thoughts on what women have to do to get a man to propose sheds a lot of light on the kind of person you are and explains why you did what you did in your own life. Does the OP not say that this is the type of thing you think you have to do to get a man to propose?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Eh? No sex before marriage? I'll walk, and many men would. Most likely think she's hiding something, or simply not interested in sex

Risky manipulation if she's already emotionally invested


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Laila619,

What you post any place on this forum is fair game. Many times multiple threads and posts give more insight into a member's complete "picture". Not every post is going to be what you want to hear.



WorkingOnMe,

Please let it go before this thread gets further derailed.


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## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

hambone said:


> Well, I had an absolutely horrible 1st marriage. I willingly proposed, without being prompted, that first time. But, after two years of living hell... I wasn't interested in being married to anybody.
> 
> Then, I met my second wife. I was head over heels in love. I had badly misjudged my first wife. Made such a horrible mistake that I didn't trust my own judgment. Many, many times, I'd ask myself..."You love her? Yes!... Do you think you'll ever love anybody more than you love her? NO!!! Are there any areas of incompatibility? NO!... she's PERFECT!... So, what's the problem?" and I'd grimace, squint my eyes, wobble my head back and forth and moan like I was in pain... I bet I had that conversation with myself a couple times a day for 18 months.
> 
> Finally, she wrote me a letter and gave it to me on a Friday after we'd finished eating at a dinner and she left. I could tell by the way she gave it to me that it was important. It was like 5 pages long. I read that letter the rest of Friday, all day Saturday and most of Sunday... wasn't sure what it said. Finally, Sunday evening I asked her to come over and let's talk about it. All she needed to do was write, "Dear hambone... POOP or get off the pot!" and I'd known exactly what she was trying to tell me. We got officially engaged about 2 days latter and married 10 days later. I love her so much.. and was so happy to finally be married to her.. It was a dream come true. I just need that nudge.


I love that story, hambone!


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Laila619 said:


> My girlfriend and I were talking, and we were saying how with EVERY married couple we know, the wife had to give her husband a "gentle nudge"/pressure/hints/ultimatum/kick in the butt, etc. to get him to propose. We couldn't think of one couple where this wasn't the case. It seems like most men are very happy to date and would date forever if the woman didn't eventually nudge him to get engaged. So, is this true of you and your wife? Why do you think some men are so reluctant to propose, even if things are going well and they're very happy?


My SO proposed even after he knew my view about getting married again.There was no nudge from me,no pressure,no hints.

If anything,I've been getting pressure and nudges from him.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Laila619 said:


> My girlfriend and I were talking, and we were saying how with EVERY married couple we know, the wife had to give her husband a "gentle nudge"/pressure/hints/ultimatum/kick in the butt, etc. to get him to propose. We couldn't think of one couple where this wasn't the case. It seems like most men are very happy to date and would date forever if the woman didn't eventually nudge him to get engaged. So, is this true of you and your wife? Why do you think some men are so reluctant to propose, even if things are going well and they're very happy?


Let uncle thatbpguy tell you a story...

Once upon a time there was a handsome prince and a beautiful princess. The price said to the princess, "If you shall kiss me and marry me I shall give you the desire of your heart the rest of your life." The princess pondered this in her soul for a few moments, and answered, "I am sorry but I shall neither kiss you or marry you." And so, to console himself, the prince bought a Harley. In fact he rode Harleys most the rest of his life. And he went camping, fishing and hunting with his buddies whenever he liked to. He ate what he wanted and when he wanted. He laid around on Saturday afternoons smoking cigars and watching sports on TV. He left the lid up and as he got older he dated women nearly half his age. He even had money left over every month from his paycheck.

The End


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Laila619 said:


> My girlfriend and I were talking, and we were saying how with EVERY married couple we know, the wife had to give her husband a "gentle nudge"/pressure/hints/ultimatum/kick in the butt, etc. to get him to propose. We couldn't think of one couple where this wasn't the case. It seems like most men are very happy to date and would date forever if the woman didn't eventually nudge him to get engaged. So, is this true of you and your wife? Why do you think some men are so reluctant to propose, even if things are going well and they're very happy?


Not the case here. We were living together and I knew I wanted to share my life with him but for me, that didn't need to equate to being married. He knew this, however it became more important to him and he proposed. Without hesitation I said yes, as I wanted our life to be together, regardless of whether we were married or not.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I doubt that this is true. If I had to hint or push a man into proposing to me it would mean nothing to me. I wouldn't do it. 

My SO told me long ago that he wanted us to spend the rest of our lives together, so it's just a case of when we decide to make that formal statement. We're busy looking at rings right now, so I expect it will be pretty soon.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

thatbpguy said:


> Let uncle thatbpguy tell you a story...
> 
> Once upon a time there was a handsome prince and a beautiful princess. The price said to the princess, "If you shall kiss me and marry me I shall give you the desire of your heart the rest of your life." The princess pondered this in her soul for a few moments, and answered, "I am sorry but I shall neither kiss you or marry you." And so, to console himself, the prince bought a Harley. In fact he rode Harleys most the rest of his life. And he went camping, fishing and hunting with his buddies whenever he liked to. He ate what he wanted and when he wanted. He laid around on Saturday afternoons smoking cigars and watching sports on TV. He left the lid up and as he got older he dated women nearly half his age. He even had money left over every month from his paycheck.
> 
> The End


I like your style


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I spent around three or four years "persuading" hubz!

I was clear at the outset I was looking for a serious relationship leading to marriage. We had a baby two years in, and I found out after that he was going to propose at the birth but didn't.

Three years later he had said yes, he had said not yet, he had said maybe... When we move house... Then we moved and he said when we're settled... When we were settled he wanted to wait until baby number two arrived... Then he wanted to wait until we were settled... Then he wanted to wait until we'd saved up... Then he had an EA and wanted to wait until I'd gotten over it...

By November of that year I told him he needed to make up his mind and book a date or I was leaving. We got married three months later and he has said many times he loves being married and doesn't know why he didn't do it sooner!!!


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## Viseral (Feb 25, 2011)

Laila619 said:


> My girlfriend and I were talking, and we were saying how with EVERY married couple we know, the wife had to give her husband a "gentle nudge"/pressure/hints/ultimatum/kick in the butt, etc. to get him to propose. We couldn't think of one couple where this wasn't the case. It seems like most men are very happy to date and would date forever if the woman didn't eventually nudge him to get engaged. So, is this true of you and your wife? Why do you think some men are so reluctant to propose, even if things are going well and they're very happy?


Because women are the big winners in marriage, both in a traditional and a legal sense.

Women get the diamond rings, the big weddings ("her day"), and often times the option to quit working and stay home with the kids.

If divorce happens then women get primary custody of the children 98% of the time, half the assets, alimony, child support, half of the man's future pension, etc.

What do men get?

The bills, the responsibility, the financial consequences if divorce occurs, and jail time if he can't pay for it all.

Now, if we had true equality then that'd be a different story.

She gets the diamond ring, I get a month long bear hunting trip to Alaska. She gets "her day", I get a fully functional man cave. If she decides to leave the marriage, then she pays the consequences, not me.

Basically, in a dating relationship, men have agency (control) over their lives to effect change if necessary. In marriage, they don't.

For example, if a guy gets married and his wife quits having sex with him then he really only has three bad options. Either live in a sexless marriage, get sex outside the marriage, or get divorced and lose everything.

In a dating relationship, if a man's girlfriend quits sleeping with him then he can show her the door, and she suffers the consequences of her actions, as it should be. Not so in marriage.

Men are generally happier when they have some control over their own lives. The current legal system takes away the power men need to have enough control in their relationships to make changes if necessary and be happy.

It's about power. Not power over women, but power over men's own lives. And for a relationship to be happy, there needs to be an even balance of power. An even balance of power exists in dating relationships, but not in marriage as our laws currently define it.

There's a lot more to it, but that covers some of what men go through when considering marriage. Most men who haven't been married don't understand this, but men who've been divorced understand it even if they can't articulate it accurately.


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## MysteryMan1 (Nov 4, 2012)

Viseral said:


> Because women are the big winners in marriage, both in a traditional and a legal sense.
> 
> Women get the diamond rings, the big weddings ("her day"), and often times the option to quit working and stay home with the kids.
> 
> ...


Very well said, my thoughts exactly.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Viseral said:


> Because women are the big winners in marriage, both in a traditional and a legal sense.
> 
> Sometimes, but not in my case.
> 
> ...


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## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

Yes, women definitely have it better after marriage, that I would agree with. 

If I were a man, I might be gun shy about proposing too. If the marriage ends, a man has a lot to lose unfortunately.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

You keep saying, "Not always."

Yes there are exceptions to the rule.

I got divorced.. no kids and I ended up paying the wife $1,000 alimony and this was back in 1980. Plus I had to pay off the note on the new cars she was driving. And, she got most of my savings and what she didn't get... Lawyers fees ate up.

But, all was not lost. I did get the dog or rather the half that I didn't already own... on a coin flip!!! The judge actually clipped a coin out into the middle of the court room. I called it. the coin when round and round the court room in a big circle before it fell over... The bailiff identified it and I won. Lose that coin flip and I'd have walked away with NOTHING. 

She took the position that her stuff was hers.. that our stuff was hers. and half of my stuff was hers. 

How bad was it? I remember her telling me that she was going to the grocery store... I asked her to buy some oranges. and she replied. (angrily) "I'm not GOING DOWN the produce aisle!!!" 

She finally left me. 

Good thing we didn't have any kids.

See, back in the day... in Louisiana... All my wife did was ride around in her new car and meet girl friends for lunch. And, according to the law. Because she had no income... I had to support her in a manner she had become accustomed to for the rest of her life...(Unless she got remarried). She did a couple of years later...

The fact that she was perfectly healthy and worked before I married her had nothing to do with it...


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

hambone said:


> You keep saying, "Not always."
> 
> Yes there are exceptions to the rule.
> 
> ...


There are LOTS of exceptions to the rule.

I'm sorry you got ripped off.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> There are LOTS of exceptions to the rule.
> 
> I'm sorry you got ripped off.


It worked out because as bad as that 2 years was... my second marriage has been heaven..

Plus back when I got divorced... the divorce laws hadn't caught up with the equality after the feminists movement.

Women had the best of both worlds back then... 

It was hard to stomach when I was going through it. I really think my first wife married me just to take me to the cleaners. We had a wonderful courtship and as soon as she said "I Do":. everything change. All the fun stuff we use to do came to a screaching halt. She wasn't cooking me meals, keeping me in clothes.. cleaning house and zero love life.

The only reason I stayed in it was because NO ONE in my family.. on either side... had ever gotten divorced. And, I had always been successful. I"d never failed at anything. And this was a biggie.

What got me over it was recognizing that I was not in control of all the variables. It's not like I could have studied harder... worked harder... etc. That's when I figured out that you can't make someone love you.


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## more_waffles (Sep 18, 2012)

I didn't need to be nudged. I knew I wanted to marry her for a while before I popped the question, but held off so I wouldn't scare her away. I went ahead and proposed because we had moved in together and I had always been against the idea of "cohabitation", not for moral reasons but because it seemed wishy-washy to me. She had to think about it for a while before saying yes.

I was blissfully ignorant of the risks of marriage at the time. We were both dirt poor, so alimony was an alien concept. Fortunately I made the right choice in a wife. We're still going strong 20 years later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

Viseral said:


> Because women are the big winners in marriage, both in a traditional and a legal sense.
> 
> Women get the diamond rings, the big weddings ("her day"), and often times the option to quit working and stay home with the kids.
> 
> ...


Compelling! 

Was going to post, but there's no point now...

QFT!

Thankfully, I didn't get jipped with my wife, but sometimes I'll **** bricks a little bit knowing that, if she wanted to be evil, she could take greater custody of the greatest thing in my life, my son, knowing how biased and lopsided family courts are against fathers.

There's NO WAY I would criticize a man for not getting married. In fact, I will expect my son to be a great father and "husband" one day, but I won't necessarily steer him to be a legal husband in any way... He and I will seriously discuss this one day... The way I see the trends now, I prefer he NOT enter a "legal" marriage. It should be enough that two people love each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyrnaLoy (Apr 23, 2013)

Not true for me-- my husband was always set on marrying me. I wasn't sure if I even wanted to get married ever, so he did more of the convincing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

hambone said:


> It worked out because as bad as that 2 years was... my second marriage has been heaven..
> 
> Plus back when I got divorced... the divorce laws hadn't caught up with the equality after the feminists movement.
> 
> ...


In some countries (I think particularly the States), I think the divorce laws were unfair. In the country where I was living at the time, sitting at home caring for my child post divorce wasn't an option (besides, I'm an independent person and was eager to get on with my own life again). You got divorced with children of school going age, you were expected to work to support your children.

I'm glad that second time around has been happy for you!


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> In some countries (I think particularly the States), I think the divorce laws were unfair. In the country where I was living at the time, sitting at home caring for my child post divorce wasn't an option (besides, I'm an independent person and was eager to get on with my own life again). You got divorced with children of school going age, you were expected to work to support your children.
> 
> I'm glad that second time around has been happy for you!


Thanks. The laws are more equitable now.. I wouldn't say they are fair but they are a lot better. 

I saw your image of Table Mtn. Very nice. That's in South Africa isn't it? 

Check out my images.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

hambone said:


> Thanks. The laws are more equitable now.. I wouldn't say they are fair but they are a lot better.
> 
> I saw your image of Table Mtn. Very nice. That's in South Africa isn't it?
> 
> Check out my images.


Yes, that was where I was living back then. Miss it so much!

Will check out your images


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

My husband and I are each others second marriage. After three years of dating I told him that I wanted to be married and if he didn't I understood and I would explore my options. He muttered something about wanting to marry me eventually, and I told him that I'd never bring it up again, I'd just watch his actions. Marriage talk started soon after that, though it was a few more years until we got married. I do think he would have brought it up eventually since he wanted to live together, and since I had two young boys I wasn't going to give up my home and uproot my boys without the commitment of marriage. Now he says he doesn't know what took him so long.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Interlocutor said:


> Compelling!
> 
> Was going to post, but there's no point now...
> 
> ...



But if your issue is custody of your son, how is that avoided by not getting married? You think your son would have greater access to his children just because he refuses to get married? For the record, I have two sons so I understand these concerns.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> But if your issue is custody of your son, how is that avoided by not getting married? You think your son would have greater access to his children just because he refuses to get married? For the record, I have two sons so I understand these concerns.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: And although this, of course, involves an IVF child using third party sperm, it's worth considering:- A Parent in Fact But Not In Law | Related Topics


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

For all of the men going on about the unfairness of divorce laws, I feel compelled to point out that the reason that happened in the first place was that men were determined to keep women at home "where they belonged". This is what's known as the law of unintended consequences, and be careful what you wish for. If we had been out working like men all along you wouldn't have this inequality. I think laws will continue to move in the direction of equality, as they should, but laws are always slow to catch up with society. But please remember that when you have children true equality is almost impossible, because often one parent doesn't work or sacrifices a chunk of their income potential to take care of kids so when you agree to such an arrangement you agree to split the assets. You can't have a stay at home parent that takes care of house and kids, while you climb the income ladder, and then expect to keep all of the money if things don't work out. Make it clear to your wife that you want her to work and your agree to split child duty, then you can have his and hers finances.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> But if your issue is custody of your son, how is that avoided by not getting married? You think your son would have greater access to his children just because he refuses to get married? For the record, I have two sons so I understand these concerns.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is not the only issue. I am aware that a father would still be disadvantaged for custody if a conflict arises and he is not legally marrried. I understand he wouldn't have greater access. Not being married wouldn't solve this issue it's true.

However, not being married solves MANY other issues men face that CAN be solved by not being legally, American legal system, married.

Custody is only one area where men get screwed by evil women. There are others, and not being married makes the others easier and safer for a man, thus, why many men are hesitant to be married as you'll continue to read men express here.

Again, I didn't get jipped... My wife can be a lazy sack at times, and she can have her issues, but she is not evil. Hypothetically, if she suddenly carried some kind of draconian grudge against me, I would have to be at her complete mercy and beg that she not divorce me in order to keep the life I have with my son... It is the greatest part of my life, the time I spend with him every day. I wouldn't give that up for anything...

And there are other men who think the same and my hypothesis is their reality. Moreover, some of them might be stuck with rotten women who know it and use that to twist the blade when they wish for immediate and total leverage.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> For all of the men going on about the unfairness of divorce laws, I feel compelled to point out that the reason that happened in the first place was that men were determined to keep women at home "where they belonged". This is what's known as the law of unintended consequences, and be careful what you wish for. If we had been out working like men all along you wouldn't have this inequality. I think laws will continue to move in the direction of equality, as they should, but laws are always slow to catch up with society. But please remember that when you have children true equality is almost impossible, because often one parent doesn't work or sacrifices a chunk of their income potential to take care of kids so when you agree to such an arrangement you agree to split the assets. You can't have a stay at home parent that takes care of house and kids, while you climb the income ladder, and then expect to keep all of the money if things don't work out. Make it clear to your wife that you want her to work and your agree to split child duty, then you can have his and hers finances.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

I got married at a time when a woman was _expected_ to forfeit her career when children came on the scene. In fact, when I started looking for employment prior to divorce, it became clear to me that women with children were actually discriminated against by prospective employers. Also, my earning capacity had diminished during my years as a SAHM, and it took me years to catch up...

Things have changed a lot since then but, as the above OP said, it's taking time for the law to catch up.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> For all of the men going on about the unfairness of divorce laws, I feel compelled to point out that the reason that happened in the first place was that men were determined to keep women at home "where they belonged". This is what's known as the law of unintended consequences, and be careful what you wish for. If we had been out working like men all along you wouldn't have this inequality. I think laws will continue to move in the direction of equality, as they should, but laws are always slow to catch up with society. But please remember that when you have children true equality is almost impossible, because often one parent doesn't work or sacrifices a chunk of their income potential to take care of kids so when you agree to such an arrangement you agree to split the assets. You can't have a stay at home parent that takes care of house and kids, while you climb the income ladder, and then expect to keep all of the money if things don't work out. Make it clear to your wife that you want her to work and your agree to split child duty, then you can have his and hers finances.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, the archaism of current laws was once an absolute necessity, and they are catching up... However, there is still a long way to go. You're absolutely right on that.

On equality, however, I have to disagree a bit. I believe it is very feasible if a would-be spouse stays sharp. In my case, I was always a bit smarter than most of the men my age in my mid-20's... Unlike some of them, I refused to marry someone wasn't in my income, moral, sexual, or even gender-role arena...

I only married my wife because we both knew we would be working (same careers, and same $), we BOTH cook, both clean, both fix our cars, both raise our son, both do laundry. We split everything equally and do everything together... No one gets shafted with a task or role.

We are as true to near-equality as I could get, and without this I would NOT have gotten married legally, no matter how much I loved her.

I said before I feel pretty safe compared to other men.

I will not digress, but suffice it to say some of my friends are slaves to the legal system, to their ex-wives, and they barely spend any time with their kids. One started drinking, something he had never ever liked, and I have one who is trying right now to kill himself after being estranged by his teenage daughter, though it was his wife who cheated on him and he still begged to prevent the divorce, total doormat he was (and is), men like him are fodder in today's brutal legal warzone that is legal marriage.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Interlocutor said:


> Yes, the archaism of current laws was once an absolute necessity, and they are catching up... However, there is still a long way to go. You're absolutely right on that.
> 
> On equality, however, I have to disagree a bit. I believe it is very feasible if a would-be spouse stays sharp. In my case, I was always a bit smarter than most of the men my age in my mid-20's... Unlike some of them, I refused to marry someone wasn't in my income, moral, sexual, or even gender-role arena...
> 
> ...


Well you are rare breed; you thought carefully about your decision. So many men make their decision based on the attractiveness and sex factor, then find out later they paid for that in other ways. Also, a lot of men say they want an equal but that's only true to a point, then they get intimidated. 
As far as doormats, they come in all genders. Women put up with nasty men just as much as men put up with nasty women. That's why people need to do as you did and give careful thought to who they marry or have kids with. I'm probably more like a man in a lot of ways, every time I hear men complaining about getting married so women can take advantage of then I laugh because in my case the reverse is true: I have a degree in a hard science and a well paying job, so please explain to me why I should marry and share my money with YOU! Not you personally of course, just a general statement. Like you, I chose my second hb carefully (wish I could say I chose my first carefully but we all make mistakes); we both work, we both cook and clean, and I love him. I consider myself pretty lucky that I was able to find 
a guy I'm attracted to, that I love, and has all of these other qualities. Perfect? Nobody is, but the package is pretty darn good. Lesson of the day: consider these things carefully before you choose a partner and remember that love, while wonderful, is not enough. And please tell your friend not to do anything rash over the actions of a teen, they're all jerks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Viseral (Feb 25, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> For all of the men going on about the unfairness of divorce laws, I feel compelled to point out that the reason that happened in the first place was that men were determined to keep women at home "where they belonged". This is what's known as the law of unintended consequences, and be careful what you wish for. If we had been out working like men all along you wouldn't have this inequality. I think laws will continue to move in the direction of equality, as they should, but laws are always slow to catch up with society. But please remember that when you have children true equality is almost impossible, because often one parent doesn't work or sacrifices a chunk of their income potential to take care of kids so when you agree to such an arrangement you agree to split the assets. You can't have a stay at home parent that takes care of house and kids, while you climb the income ladder, and then expect to keep all of the money if things don't work out. Make it clear to your wife that you want her to work and your agree to split child duty, then you can have his and hers finances.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



*** THIS IS NOT WOMEN BASHING ***

Respectfully, I have to disagree. The above statement conveys that women are helpless victims, and that marriage is an institution designed to "keep women at home, where they belonged", for the sole benefit of men. This mentality that women are victims and men are oppressors needs to stop.

The traditional ways that men provided for and protected women throughout history has been re-interpreted by liberal feminism as male oppression keeping women down solely for men's benefit.

It's true that gender roles were more defined in the past, out of necessity, because in a harsh natural world women needed men's protection and provision, and the technology didn't exist to free women from their traditional role as mother and care-giver, but it most certainly wasn't men getting together with the intent to form "the patriarchy" solely to oppress women. In fact, men are biologically hard-wired to protect and provide for women.

And lest we forget male sacrifice which is so absent in our social dialogue. Men were the coal miners, field workers, loggers, fishermen, firemen, policemen, and the cannon fodder in all the wars throughout history. All done, to provide for and protect women and children.

Again, this mentality that women are victims and men are oppressors needs to stop. In fact, women are very powerful. Practically everything that men do in their lives is for women. Either to provide for women or children, or to protect, or to gain the affection of women. 

Women are the life-givers, they give birth to our children, they raise, nurture, guide, and teach them. A physically attractive woman is like a puppet master to the men her life. She has the power to influence the most powerful and dominant men, while lesser men compete for her.

I used to be a liberal and believed all the things that our media conveys, but after reading extensively and doing my own research, I've come to a different point of view. I've included a video which explains this topic very well. It's long but definitely worth watching if you have the time.

My address to the NY Libertarian Party - YouTube

*** THIS IS NOT WOMEN BASHING ***


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Viseral said:


> *** THIS IS NOT WOMEN BASHING ***
> 
> Respectfully, I have to disagree. The above statement conveys that women are helpless victims, and that marriage is an institution designed to "keep women at home, where they belonged", for the sole benefit of men. This mentality that women are victims and men are oppressors needs to stop.
> 
> ...



For sure you are right, and I in no way meant to minimize the contributions of good men, one of which was my dear old dad. Men and women have always had their places in functioning societies and have always needed each other; I was merely referring to the financial inequalities that gave rise to the lopsided divorce laws men know and hate. It is true today that we women have a lot of power which is why I said that laws and their applications are changing, but these old policies of "protecting" women by keeping them home created these financial inequalities, and these things just take time to change. We will continue to move toward equality and that's a great thing for men as well; if muy husband loses his job we can live on my salary. In times past that burden would have been his. Alimony is not nearly as common it once was, and men are getting custody much more then they used to. When I was a kid that was unheard of. Both genders still have inequalities to deal with, but change doesn't happen overnight and attitudes can take a few generations to change. I appreciate the video offer but I'm already a registered libertarian.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Laila619 said:


> My girlfriend and I were talking, and we were saying how with EVERY married couple we know, the wife had to give her husband a "gentle nudge"/pressure/hints/ultimatum/kick in the butt, etc. to get him to propose. We couldn't think of one couple where this wasn't the case. It seems like most men are very happy to date and would date forever if the woman didn't eventually nudge him to get engaged. *So, is this true of you and your wife? * Why do you think some men are so reluctant to propose, even if things are going well and they're very happy?



Nope, not at all. When we got together at 19 and 20 I knew she would be my wife. She, however, did not. It took her about a year before she came to that realization. We were in a relationship for many years and both understood that marriage for us was a matter of when, not if. I could _never_ be pressured into proposing. 

I truly believe one of the potentially worst mistakes a woman can ever make in her life is to pressure a man into marriage. That is NOT the way marriage was approached for the vast majority of it's historic existence. In the western world there is an epidemic of men being nudged/pressured/dragged to the altar before they're really ready to commit at that level, and frankly the results speak well for themselves. Nevermind the amount of women who are getting married for reasons that ultimately have little to do with an honest desire for actual, lifelong matrimony.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Laila619 said:


> My girlfriend and I were talking, and we were saying how with EVERY married couple we know, the wife had to give her husband a "gentle nudge"/pressure/hints/ultimatum/kick in the butt, etc. to get him to propose. We couldn't think of one couple where this wasn't the case. It seems like most men are very happy to date and would date forever if the woman didn't eventually nudge him to get engaged. So, is this true of you and your wife? Why do you think some men are so reluctant to propose, even if things are going well and they're very happy?



LOL,
I guess I'm the odd man out here...
Long story so I'll make it short.
So here goes.

My wife didn't have to nudge me or kick me in the butt for us to get married.
She had to kick me in the head, like a flying, Jet Li , judo kick , and she laid down her conditions before we even had our first kiss.

She told me flat out what she wanted, _before_....

And we had been friends for years.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> As far as doormats, they come in all genders. Women put up with nasty men just as much as men put up with nasty women. *That's why people need to do as you did and give careful thought to who they marry or have kids with. *


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
It is good that people should be careful in choosing partners.
But above everything else,
Choose someone who loves and respects you.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

When you've known somebody for 18yrs , married for nearly 12 and it blows up in your face - you realize right then why !
We're a lot more clued in on the whole deal than women have any idea of !


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## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

jaquen said:


> I truly believe one of the potentially worst mistakes a woman can ever make in her life is to pressure a man into marriage. That is NOT the way marriage was approached for the vast majority of it's historic existence. In the western world there is an epidemic of men being nudged/pressured/dragged to the altar before they're really ready to commit at that level, and frankly the results speak well for themselves. Nevermind the amount of women who are getting married for reasons that ultimately have little to do with an honest desire for actual, lifelong matrimony.


jaquen, very good point. However, why do the men give in to the ultimatum if it's not what they really want? My H always says a man doesn't have to propose when given an ultimatum; he can say no thanks and move on. A man is really doing a huge disservice to a woman and to himself when he marries her even though he didn't really want to. It's just a recipe for disaster.


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

That's a tough one to be in. I had 3 gf's before my x that wanted to get married and have babies like the world was going to end.
Al sorts of pressures and guilt's come into it once that all starts.

Thing is , he just might not be there yet , it often doesn't mean he wants to stop seeing her or doesn't like her in that way. It often just means he's not in a hurry. But of course there could be a dozen other reasons too.
The next one will nag at it just as bad anyway after a yr or two.


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