# My wife does not love me and wants a divorce, can I win her back?



## eyesopen

Friends, I want to say, oh my god, I never ever would have believed that I would be posting in a forum like this. But I guess, none of are immune to life's perils.

First the facts - my wife says she does not love me and more and wants a divorce.

My wife and I have known each other for almost 20 years, a couple for 13 and married for 10. We have two wonderful children, 6 and 3. We are, how to say, "fundamentally good people".

A month ago my wife dropped a bomb. I honestly don't know what I started the conversation about (seriously, I am blank) but apparently I asked her if she loved me at one point. And to my shock and horror, she said "no, I don't love you".

I will attempt to avoid a long and drawn out description, but here is the story. There are two sides to it. My side, is that because of my work, and yes, personality flaws, I have neglected my wife emotionally, not been attentive enough, not loved her properly (though I love her dearly), and other mistakes. From her side, she was hurt by all these, over a long time, and apart from that, has now at the age of 39 discovered herself (with the help of philosophy and other studies) and feels that she wants to take charge of her life, make something of herself, not live in my shadow, etc etc.

She says that she stopped loving me about a year ago she thinks, though she can't pinpoint it. She says that she searched her heart and soul, and that is the honest answer she has come up with. She will not consider separation, will not go to counseling, and is adamant about not loving me and simply wants a divorce.

What I find so terribly difficult to come to terms with, is that now, it is clear to me, just how preventable this was. Yes, she did speak to me, told me things, but I was too closed to really listen to her and I did not perceive these things as a threat to our marriage. We never really fought, and she never ever put her foot down.

So now I have basically agreed to the divorce, because you cannot keep someone captive if they do not want to be with you. I asked once or twice (or three times) for her to consider but the answer was always no.

Now, I love my wife dearly, and I don't want to lose my children. But these two powerful forces, my emotional neglect (and other bad characteristics like pessimism, being sad all the time etc) combined with her inner awakening and spiritual quest, have caused this terrible situation and hardened her heart.

So what is my plan? Well, I don't want to give up. That is, even after the divorce, I want to try and win her back.

But is it possible? This is not just a case where I forgot a few birthdays so I can send flowers and say I am sorry. This is a case where she feels very deeply in the core of herself that she does not love me.

Is it possible to win someone back from a situation like that? And that too after a divorce?

Or am I naive and foolish to think so and just need to get on with my life.


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## Shooboomafoo

My wife had gone to bed early, like she started doing since the workout routine started at the gym. One night after she had gone to bed, I went in there and sat next to her. Just leaned against her and stroked her hair.

I went back into the living room to watch the t.v. and she came out to tell me the exact same things. I dont love you anymore, dont know why, youre more like a brother to me....

ALL B.S. EXCUSES..

because she had for the past six months to a year been involved with another man from Facebook, who was a highschool boyfriend at one time or another.

That was in Sept of 2010 when I found this out.
August 2011 was our divorce.
Today, I am in my own house that I struggled to find, have my daughter over every other week for a week at a time, and my ex wife has since moved another man in , three months after I moved out.

I truly do not hope that your wife is doing the same thing.
But I thought it prudent to explain my situation because it may be something you need to investigate.


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## rumple9

Yes Op Exactly same as my story - Shooboomafoo is right - she's screwing someone else - put a keylogger on her computer and all will be revealed.

You can get a free keylogger here 

Free Keylogger Software by IwantSoft

You will be surprised, but be ready for the hurt


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## nc_girl

I left my husband back in October for what sounds like a similar situation, although there were some other issues as well. There was/is no other man at all, I simply reached my limit of what I could take any more and decided that I did not want or need to live the rest of my life being treated the way I was being treated. Since I have left, my husband has given me hardly any space, and has pushed and pushed for me to change my mind, and it has only served to push me away further until I now know there is no chance for reconciliation. I would say you should give her some space - if there is any chance of her changing her mind, you will have to give her space and time, and a chance to miss you.


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## eyesopen

Guys, no, no other man. It's not one of those stories. How can I know? Of course there is always a chance, but I know my wife, I asked her, and our circumstances do not make it a viable option.
It is simply a case of long drawn out emotional neglect, combined with her own personal growth. This has been, apparently, festering for several months and she has reached a conclusion and wants out.
I asked for us to give it a chance, she is very adamant, that no, she does not love me any more and that she wants to go on this next phase of the journey on her own (and please believe me, I know her, she is telling the truth).
I was a fool, neglected her, put work first, and so many other things. Yes, she spoke to me, but I didn't REALLY understand. And now it seems too late, and divorce seems imminent. She says the intimate love is lost (of course she still feels for me as father of our children etc).
I desperately want to win her back. I love her very much (to which she says by the way that if I really did, it would not have happened, but I don't think that is correct as we all have our issues).
I have another 2 months or so of us living together (we are in another country right now and have to move back) and then another 1-2-3 months as we process the divorce.
I realize, seriously, that people change and grow apart etc etc. But this did not have to be.
I want to save our marriage and family but I don't know how.
Help.....


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## Jayb

eyesopen said:


> Friends, I want to say, oh my god, I never ever would have believed that I would be posting in a forum like this. But I guess, none of are immune to life's perils.
> 
> First the facts - my wife says she does not love me and more and wants a divorce.
> 
> My wife and I have known each other for almost 20 years, a couple for 13 and married for 10. We have two wonderful children, 6 and 3. We are, how to say, "fundamentally good people".
> 
> A month ago my wife dropped a bomb. I honestly don't know what I started the conversation about (seriously, I am blank) but apparently I asked her if she loved me at one point. And to my shock and horror, she said "no, I don't love you".
> 
> I will attempt to avoid a long and drawn out description, but here is the story. There are two sides to it. My side, is that because of my work, and yes, personality flaws, I have neglected my wife emotionally, not been attentive enough, not loved her properly (though I love her dearly), and other mistakes. From her side, she was hurt by all these, over a long time, and apart from that, has now at the age of 39 discovered herself (with the help of philosophy and other studies) and feels that she wants to take charge of her life, make something of herself, not live in my shadow, etc etc.
> 
> She says that she stopped loving me about a year ago she thinks, though she can't pinpoint it. She says that she searched her heart and soul, and that is the honest answer she has come up with. She will not consider separation, will not go to counseling, and is adamant about not loving me and simply wants a divorce.
> 
> What I find so terribly difficult to come to terms with, is that now, it is clear to me, just how preventable this was. Yes, she did speak to me, told me things, but I was too closed to really listen to her and I did not perceive these things as a threat to our marriage. We never really fought, and she never ever put her foot down.
> 
> So now I have basically agreed to the divorce, because you cannot keep someone captive if they do not want to be with you. I asked once or twice (or three times) for her to consider but the answer was always no.
> 
> Now, I love my wife dearly, and I don't want to lose my children. But these two powerful forces, my emotional neglect (and other bad characteristics like pessimism, being sad all the time etc) combined with her inner awakening and spiritual quest, have caused this terrible situation and hardened her heart.
> 
> So what is my plan? Well, I don't want to give up. That is, even after the divorce, I want to try and win her back.
> 
> But is it possible? This is not just a case where I forgot a few birthdays so I can send flowers and say I am sorry. This is a case where she feels very deeply in the core of herself that she does not love me.
> 
> Is it possible to win someone back from a situation like that? And that too after a divorce?
> 
> Or am I naive and foolish to think so and just need to get on with my life.


I'm in the exact situation, except, in the heat of the moment, 6 months ago, I filed for D. Now, I don't want to D, but we are so close to agreeing and signing.

After hearing it again, in front of our MC, that she is hopeless for the M, doesn't want to work at it, etc., I'm somewhat knocked back as to my options and what to do.

Yes, I'm working on me, and this is new (3 weeks).

1 day at a time
Appreciate what you have control over
pray
patience - it may be a week, month, year, 5 years, etc.
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst
Read Divorce Remedy/Divorce Busting for ideas
Hang out here at TAM for support


Those are a few suggestions. I wouldn't wish this pain on my worst enemy. It comes down to coping skills.

Stay strong.


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## Jayb

eyesopen said:


> Guys, no, no other man. It's not one of those stories. How can I know? Of course there is always a chance, but I know my wife, I asked her, and our circumstances do not make it a viable option.
> It is simply a case of long drawn out emotional neglect, combined with her own personal growth. This has been, apparently, festering for several months and she has reached a conclusion and wants out.
> I asked for us to give it a chance, she is very adamant, that no, she does not love me any more and that she wants to go on this next phase of the journey on her own (and please believe me, I know her, she is telling the truth).
> I was a fool, neglected her, put work first, and so many other things. Yes, she spoke to me, but I didn't REALLY understand. And now it seems too late, and divorce seems imminent. She says the intimate love is lost (of course she still feels for me as father of our children etc).
> I desperately want to win her back. I love her very much (to which she says by the way that if I really did, it would not have happened, but I don't think that is correct as we all have our issues).
> I have another 2 months or so of us living together (we are in another country right now and have to move back) and then another 1-2-3 months as we process the divorce.
> I realize, seriously, that people change and grow apart etc etc. But this did not have to be.
> I want to save our marriage and family but I don't know how.
> Help.....


Yes, it sucks. There is no other man in my situation. Read about WAW - Walk Away Wife Syndrome.

My wife isn't giving me/us another chance to fight for our 12 year marriage either. Not for me, not for our small children.

I feel for you.


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## eyesopen

Jayb said:


> My wife isn't giving me/us another chance to fight for our 12 year marriage either. Not for me, not for our small children.


Yes, my wife also is so adamant, she will not even hear of giving a chance. That is, of course she will hear me, I asked several times, but she always says no, and the reason is "why I do with the feelings, I don't love you any more". That is the ultimate answer since what can you say against that? She feels deep down in herself that it will not come back. 

I am so distraught, I don't know what to do. This is about one month old. In the first two weeks I was in shock and physically sick. Then I slowly started to understand. Now I can narrate what happened. It was ALL out there in pain view, I was just too blind to see (work pressure, bad habits, etc). We were behaving like a normal couple, having sex, etc. Yes, she did talk with me over the past 1-2 years, but never in a strong way, never put her foot down. She says it is because of her nature not to be overbearing. To tell but not to push. Well, then I get the bomb.

This also has to do with her "awakening" (age 39 right?) and seeing her life go by and not wanting to "live in my shadow" and wanting to do something with herself. She wants to go on this journey or self development and also spirituality (she studies Buddhism). And she says she can't do it with me there as her partner (plus, she does not love me).

I don't know, I just don't know. I am wracking my brain thinking about what to do. How I can save this. I don't have a clue.

Yes I am going to change myself. Of course she says she is happy "for me" for these changes. But it does not impact her.

I just don't want to chalk this up to "one of those things". It's not that I can't live without her. Of course I can. Time heals. But I love her, and I love my children. I don't want this to end, but I am not getting a chance to fix it.

My plan at the moment is that even if the divorce happens, as is likely, I will stay close to them, share taking care of the kids, change myself (while being true to myself), and try to win her back by my actions. I don't know, it will take huge amounts of energy and be extremely difficult. I know odds are against me. But what else am I to do? What can I do?


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## john1024

OP, I'm in the same position. I neglected my W for some time -- not with malice (I always loved her very much), but I was just stupid and lazy. She never confronted me about her feelings until telling me she wanted a divorce two weeks ago. Since then, I have been like a puppy dog, chasing her around, begging for forgiveness, etc. I could actually see her going from apathy to anger and resentment as I started helping more around the house, playing more with the kids, and telling her I love her every chance I get. She told me I had been "in her face" all week and she didn't like it. There is nothing in this world that I have ever wanted more than to save my marriage and to show my wife how much I am sorry and how very much I love her. I think of nothing else and want to spend every moment working on it until it is fixed. I feel like if I do something else -- work, watch tv, sleep -- I'm wasting precious time. But the truth is, it's not going to work. I'm not a robot -- I need to sleep and eat. The emotional toll this has taken exhausts me. So, I told her that I was not going to stop trying -- I am going to be a better person; I'm going to take care of myself; I'm going to not let opportunities to tell my family I love them go by. Not b/c I am trying to win her back, but b/c she woke me up and this is who I am and who I am going to be. BUT, I'm also going to stop pushing her. She says she doesn't love me as a husband anymore. She says she wants a divorce and I can't change her mind. I'm going to work with her toward separation when the kids get out of school this summer. I won't make excuses or try to delay it. Maybe she sees that I am a changed man and that wins her back; maybe she doesn't. That's easy to say and hard to accept, but I'm going to try. Good luck.


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## justsolost

I am in the same boat. No other man, but very similar story to those posted in here.

It has been a month, and she has been moved out for 2.5 weeks.

She agreed to MC and she comes to the sessions, but other than that she has wanted no contact.

Apart from the first few days, I have made a very concerted effort to leave her be. I am not calling her or texting her except for the rare important thing regarding a bill or household need. I am trying to give her all the space she needs/wants and hoping and praying for the best.

I decided that if she wanted to come back, she wouldn't do it for a weak, crying, sniveling man that had shut down. She would want to come back to an independent, strong man that can take care of himself without her if necessary.

I'm not saying that's what any of you are/were doing, but it fit in my case for the first couple of days.

It's been extremely hard. I went from having what I thought was a strong marriage (we had all the typical probs, but no big ones, I thought) on a Friday night, to the world nearly ending on a Saturday. She wasn't just my wife, she was my best friend. I could talk to her about anything and everything, and I did. Little did I know that she didn't feel the same and was always holding back.

Makes me wonder how well anyone ever really knows anyone else. I don't think people ever really know themselves, or why they do certain things.

Anyway, I'm trying to stay busy, work on myself to change the things I want to improve in my own character/life, and praying and hoping for the best. I'm also willing to give her some time, how much I'm not sure. I suppose I'll wake up one day and that will be the day when I have moved on, if she doesn't have a change of heart first.

Those are really the only things I have control over.


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## nnoodle

Eyesopen, you are writing my exact feelings as the wife in the situation. I have not yet reached the point of asking for a divorce but I am very close. The main difference is that I have articulated for years my growing concerns with our relationship, sought couseling and tried to engage my husband to fix it together. 

I do NOT agree with others who have posted "there must be another man". It may suprise some who post here but there are people that respect themselves and their partner enough to end relationships before they start new ones. Not enough of them but some.

I think your plotted course of taking care of yourself and maintaining a very strong relationship with your children is essential and right minded. 

Sadly, I think long term emotional neglect in a marriage is very hard to overcome even it the neglectful spouse has a moment of awakening. 

Its hard to reconcile "I love you and want you in my life" with years and years of not caring, not being there, not being involved. No one wants rejection on a daily basis. And failing to value you wife and show it for long periods of time is rejection. At a certain point the message sinks in. "I may love you but I don't/won't show it". That is a pretty useless love in my book. Why would anyone stay with that? 

I do not say any of this to pile on or hurt you, just explaining based on my experience how the emotional shut down has happened in my marriage. 

That being said, I do not feel my husband is putting forth effort to engage in our marriage even now. I am tired of begging. 

No matter how the marriage crumbled, I am sorry for your pain. 

Regardless of what happens between you and your wife, focus on the children. It does hearten me to hear a man so concerned and involved with his kids. It will be good for you and for them to cultivate that relationship through this trying and emotional time.


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## john1024

nnoodle said:


> Sadly, I think long term emotional neglect in a marriage is very hard to overcome even it the neglectful spouse has a moment of awakening.
> 
> Its hard to reconcile "I love you and want you in my life" with years and years of not caring, not being there, not being involved. No one wants rejection on a daily basis. And failing to value you wife and show it for long periods of time is rejection. At a certain point the message sinks in. "I may love you but I don't/won't show it". That is a pretty useless love in my book. Why would anyone stay with that?


I can totally comprehend what you are saying here. My wife described our situation as "death by a thousand cuts." A couple of years of emotional neglect and failing to pull my weight in the relationship -- some that I didn't see until now, some that I did but was lazy, some that I did intentionally b/c I misinterpreted her actions toward me.

What I still can't comprehend is why she refuses to give it another try -- or, more accurately from my point of view, a first real try together. I love her. Always have. She used to love me, but claims those feelings are gone. But how can she be so sure that they can't return? We are going to MC. I am willing to do whatever I need to do and I'm already doing it (gym, more helpful around the house, more loving with the kids, just a better overall person). What would be the harm in letting her guard down one last time to see if the man she once loved is still there?

A "death" by a thousand cuts is still a death; I get that. But little cuts can heal over time. If there is any life left, or just the slightest possibility that there is life left, why not give it a chance?


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## nnoodle

John1024 & Eyesopen, 

I can only answer from my experience so take everything I say with a helping of salt. 

For me, the failure of my husband to engage emotionally in our marriage and family life has been a breaking of trust, not just "death by a thousand cuts" (curious because I used that exact verbage with my husband when expressing my feelings...). 

I don't trust him to be there for me. I don't trust him to emotionally be supportive in tough times. I have never been able to lean on him. I don't trust him to be a good friend to me. I don't trust him to take care of the kids in a way that will help them grow into happy, emotionally healthy adults. 

I think a key difference here may be responsibility. My husband continues to make excuses for his actions, blaming his past while continuing the behaviors which are selfish and painful to those around him. His early family life has had such a profound affect on his current life and he seems unable (unwilling?) to step out of that functioning mode. 

I can't control that.

I have tried so hard for so long to show him a different way of being. I am tired. I am worn down and I know I cannot keep living in this emotional desert. 17 years is a long time trying. (I kinda smirk at those freaking out after 6months of marriage on here talking about how tough it is...lol)

You seem to be in a very different place. It breaks my heart a bit to see a husband willing to try and a wife not engaging. I know how that feels. Its frusrating and painful. There isn't much I wouldn't give to feel my husband was REALLY trying to save our relationship. I wish it were different for you. 

The thing about death by a thousand cuts? Those wounds don't heal without major scaring. If they heal at all. 

Like I said before, focus on you and the kids. You cannot control or plan your life based on her. Get into some couseling: it can give you clarity and help you deal with a wide range of emotions you have to be feeling. 

Be careful not to buy into some of the paranoia that floats around on this site.


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## Jayb

eyesopen said:


> Yes, my wife also is so adamant, she will not even hear of giving a chance. That is, of course she will hear me, I asked several times, but she always says no, and the reason is "why I do with the feelings, I don't love you any more". That is the ultimate answer since what can you say against that? She feels deep down in herself that it will not come back.
> 
> I am so distraught, I don't know what to do. This is about one month old. In the first two weeks I was in shock and physically sick. Then I slowly started to understand. Now I can narrate what happened. It was ALL out there in pain view, I was just too blind to see (work pressure, bad habits, etc). We were behaving like a normal couple, having sex, etc. Yes, she did talk with me over the past 1-2 years, but never in a strong way, never put her foot down. She says it is because of her nature not to be overbearing. To tell but not to push. Well, then I get the bomb.
> 
> This also has to do with her "awakening" (age 39 right?) and seeing her life go by and not wanting to "live in my shadow" and wanting to do something with herself. She wants to go on this journey or self development and also spirituality (she studies Buddhism). And she says she can't do it with me there as her partner (plus, she does not love me).
> 
> I don't know, I just don't know. I am wracking my brain thinking about what to do. How I can save this. I don't have a clue.
> 
> Yes I am going to change myself. Of course she says she is happy "for me" for these changes. But it does not impact her.
> 
> I just don't want to chalk this up to "one of those things". It's not that I can't live without her. Of course I can. Time heals. But I love her, and I love my children. I don't want this to end, but I am not getting a chance to fix it.
> 
> My plan at the moment is that even if the divorce happens, as is likely, I will stay close to them, share taking care of the kids, change myself (while being true to myself), and try to win her back by my actions. I don't know, it will take huge amounts of energy and be extremely difficult. I know odds are against me. But what else am I to do? What can I do?


Wow, that's almost exactly my W. Are you sure we're not married to the same person?

I've heard it too. She's happy I'm making changes, she'll be my bff, she loves how good a father I am, she wants me to find my perfect mate who will truly love me, etc. At the same time, she fears if we get back together 1 day we'll return to the misery, she doesn't think she can ever love me again like she once did, she's not willing to try. Any upset emotion on my part stirs her guilt/regret/misery higher and pushes her away even faster.

And, I asked her if it made her decision easier knowing that the children have adjusted so well (in all areas). Because, we do stuff as a family at least once a week, we get along. Her answer - Yes. 

I am reconsiling life after divorce. Even think about her meeting another man, dating, entering another relationship. Because, that probability is likely. And what happens if/when that new relationship fails? does she then realize the grass isn't greener and come back? Or, does she dig in her pride, push through the regrets and doubts, and continue to deny us a chance?

Things to consider. And then. How fair would that be to us? We are going to wait for our W's? For how long? Through what circumstances? Yes, we say that now, but.....

Right now, I ask my W for time. So that she can see how I'm changing to better myself and in return truly show her how much I love her in the way she needs and understands. In addition, I ask for 1 more chance for the children's sake.

I cope by praying and surviving each minute.

I pray you find peace and wisdom.


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## Jayb

john1024 said:


> I can totally comprehend what you are saying here. My wife described our situation as "death by a thousand cuts." A couple of years of emotional neglect and failing to pull my weight in the relationship -- some that I didn't see until now, some that I did but was lazy, some that I did intentionally b/c I misinterpreted her actions toward me.
> 
> *What I still can't comprehend is why she refuses to give it another try -- or, more accurately from my point of view, a first real try together. I love her. Always have. She used to love me, but claims those feelings are gone. But how can she be so sure that they can't return? *We are going to MC. I am willing to do whatever I need to do and I'm already doing it (gym, more helpful around the house, more loving with the kids, just a better overall person). What would be the harm in letting her guard down one last time to see if the man she once loved is still there?
> 
> A "death" by a thousand cuts is still a death; I get that. But little cuts can heal over time. *If there is any life left, or just the slightest possibility that there is life left, why not give it a chance?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> My W is resistant to 1 last chance as well. She said she has tried, we have tried. No we haven't. This rocked me to the point where I do have a new mindset. And, I'm not talking about returning to our M. It didn't work. I'm talking about renewal and forging a new M.
> 
> My thoughts now are that she is/will suppress any doubts/questions/hope no matter what happens, or what she truly sees and appreciates. She seems so determined in her path that if any R were possible, she would still fight it to prevent it.
> 
> I'm just praying.


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## Jayb

nnoodle said:


> John1024 & Eyesopen,
> 
> I can only answer from my experience so take everything I say with a helping of salt.
> 
> For me, the failure of my husband to engage emotionally in our marriage and family life has been a breaking of trust, not just "death by a thousand cuts" (curious because I used that exact verbage with my husband when expressing my feelings...).
> 
> I don't trust him to be there for me. I don't trust him to emotionally be supportive in tough times. I have never been able to lean on him. I don't trust him to be a good friend to me. I don't trust him to take care of the kids in a way that will help them grow into happy, emotionally healthy adults.
> 
> I think a key difference here may be responsibility. My husband continues to make excuses for his actions, blaming his past while continuing the behaviors which are selfish and painful to those around him. His early family life has had such a profound affect on his current life and he seems unable (unwilling?) to step out of that functioning mode.
> 
> I can't control that.
> 
> I have tried so hard for so long to show him a different way of being. I am tired. I am worn down and I know I cannot keep living in this emotional desert. 17 years is a long time trying. (I kinda smirk at those freaking out after 6months of marriage on here talking about how tough it is...lol)
> 
> You seem to be in a very different place. *It breaks my heart a bit to see a husband willing to try and a wife not engaging. I know how that feels. Its frusrating and painful. *There isn't much I wouldn't give to feel my husband was REALLY trying to save our relationship. I wish it were different for you.
> 
> The thing about death by a thousand cuts? Those wounds don't heal without major scaring. If they heal at all.
> 
> Like I said before, focus on you and the kids. You cannot control or plan your life based on her. Get into some couseling: it can give you clarity and help you deal with a wide range of emotions you have to be feeling.
> 
> Be careful not to buy into some of the paranoia that floats around on this site.


You have no idea. Yet, my W insists on being close friends. In the years she detached from me, I was still around, interacting, loving her. Now, when it's forced upon me, who will get me through this? My W was my best friend. Next were my children.


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## nnoodle

My next question is how many chances do you give? How long do you hold to an empty marriage? 

For me that has been the hardest thing to figure out. This absence/ lack of connection has been an ongoing issue for at least 13 yrs. I have articulated in verbally, in writing and in deed. I don't know how I could be any more clear. Really, I don't. 

He has skipped out on the last three couseling sessions we had scheduled (based on his availiblity when he made the appointments) due to "work commitments". 

My last session Monday, the couselor said he doesn't know how to proceed. He said he sees my commitment to work on the marriage. My needs are clearly defined and that I am reaching out. 

What I have felt all along our couselor has now articulated and it kills me. 

My husband is not nor never has been truly commited to being married or to me. He is not emotionally equipt or willing to engage because he cannot/won't let go of his childhood issues and mode of self protection. 

Once again, that leaves the decision up to me. My husband won't talk with me, avoids counseling and is pulling inward in a way that is very sad. 

Starting to think divorce is inevitable. Just a matter of when.


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## Jayb

Nnoodle:

I would understand the seriousness of the state of M, if you had done all those things to me. My reaction would be to devote myself to working with you at saving the M.

Your husband's reaction makes me think that he is not interested in staying married to you. He has other priorities.

That's the difference in our situations. I am willing to throw everything at it, devote any time and energy in improving myself and our M.

It is so frustrating when only 1 party is willing to salvage a marriage. Your conscience should be clear. Although, it hurts just the same.


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## Lon

nnoodle, I know we have differing views about reasons one partner, especially the W, may choose to end the relationship - I agree with you about holding onto empty marriages, it is doing nobody a favor... but when men come onto this site dumbfounded by their WAW, asking questions of "why? what did I not see?" etc it is indicative that they are good men who cared about their marriage and were never abusive (neglectful is debatable).

I am willing to admit that sometimes the marriage is just empty and so WAW is just being prudent. I will also concede that sometimes the marriage isn't really bad at all and one spouse just walks away (gives up?). But in situations where the left behind H's have been blindsided and have accepted a lot of blame for the state of the marriage, I will always put money on the fact that most of these WAW's are having an affair and the H's are just either in too much denial or too much the way they are (doormats who blame themselves for all the issues) to get to the real core of the matter.


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## Jayb

Lon said:


> nnoodle, I know we have differing views about reasons one partner, especially the W, may choose to end the relationship - I agree with you about holding onto empty marriages, it is doing nobody a favor... but when men come onto this site dumbfounded by their WAW, asking questions of "why? what did I not see?" etc it is indicative that they are good men who cared about their marriage and were never abusive (neglectful is debatable).
> 
> *I am willing to admit that sometimes the marriage is just empty and so WAW is just being prudent. I will also concede that sometimes the marriage isn't really bad at all and one spouse just walks away (gives up?). But in situations where the left behind H's have been blindsided and have accepted a lot of blame for the state of the marriage, I will always put money on the fact that most of these WAW's are having an affair and the H's are just either in too much denial or too much the way they are (doormats who blame themselves for all the issues) to get to the real core of the matter*.




My wife tested the water with inappropriate texting/emailing to convince herself she was over me.

That's it. No further contact, no OM, no dating in 10 months we have been separated.

In our M, there were a variety of issues (including my doormat tendencies) that came together in a perfect storm. 

My W is so afraid of reconciliation. Because of all the what ifs involved. Because of the fear of me holding what she did over her head. And instead seeking IC, or MC, she walked away. Knowing she can rely on my love and care for our children. 

And, instead of processing this and talking to her, I drank to numb myself. Then, I filed for D.

Now, several months later, I am sober and processing it. I am the one questioning proceeding with the D before attempting everything at saving it.

Talk about doing someone's dirty work.....


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## ArmyofJuan

If there is a snowball’s chance in hell for an R, it will be after you pull yourself out of the picture. 

Agree with everything, let her know that a D is the right choice and you understand her decision and she is correct, you were a bad husband and she is better off without you and you will do just fine without her. Do not fight her or try to talk her out of this.

The more you resist her, the more she will push to get away. You biggest enemy is pressure and even talking to her puts pressure on her (guilt for doing this to you). Give her all the space she needs. 

I find that you basically have to use reverse psychology in these situations.

She hasn’t had to experience what life will be like without you and how she will feel when the reality of you moving on (dating) hits her. If she is going to change her mind down the road it will be from missing you and dealing with actually losing you to someone else. If that doesn’t work then nothing would.
The reality is there is no magic bullet, there’s nothing you can say or do that silence can’t do better. You don’t know what you got until it’s gone they say, see if that applies to her.

Just my 2 cents.


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## rumple9

Anyone who has read my other threads will have seen the depths of despair I was in 4 months ago following the shock discovery of my 21 years partner who I dearly love having an affair and wanted to end our relationship. 

I really was suicidal but with the help of my doctor and anti depressant medication and counselling on my own (she refused to go with me) I am now on my way back up. I am now seeing this as a new opportunity to move on with my life and that my next relationship (if I have one) will be excellent as I will have learned from my past mistakes.


Lots of people have been round to see the house which is up for sale so I'm hoping it will sell quickly and I can get out of this limbo hell misery.

Since counselling I've been thinking of taking up some old long forgotten hobbies - Karate and rugby as I realise my major failing is that I don't go out and socialise enough and had solitary past times which led to the breakdown in commumincation and ultimately our relationship.

Thing is I now know where I've gone wrong and it won't happen again.

I have no way of reconciling with OH but I've now discovered so much and she's treated me so badly 4 months down the line now I don't really care.

So to OP and other guys in the same boat, forget her, she's not worth it. You might think you really love her, might think she has the best body, best looks, that you can't love anyone else (this is how I felt), but you're putting her on a pedestal right now and idealising and idolsiing her. She's not worth it he's a scumbag or she wouldn't hurt you this much. You just have to accept it and move on. 

It might take some time but you will meet someone you love eventually - It might happen tomorrow, it might take years but it won't happen if you don't go out and socialie/talk to people. This is what I learned from reading numerous websites, talking to friends, colleagues and counselling. Everyone says the same thing.

No matter how much it goes round in your head just forget her she doesn't want you. It's harsh but life sucks sometimes. You can't win her back, you can't force someone to love you no matter how hard you try.


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## desperateguy

I'm another one more or less in the same position. Details are different, but the big picture is the same. It was out 18 year anniversary 2 days ago, went completely unacknowledged. We have 2 kids. There was no other man at the time of separation, I'm certain of that. There may well be now. 

Yes, I neglected her emotionally (she did to me as well - she knows that but is probably denying it right now, 3 months since separation).

What I find hardest is that she won't even consider a second chance. 

She refuses to use the word divorce, but she is making it pretty clear that's her plan, absolutely no doubt that's the direction she's heading (12 months before you can file for divorce here). 

I was pursuing her originally, but now thanks mostly to this forum, have withdrawn. More or less adapting the 180 to how it makes sense for my situation.

I honestly have no idea what my chances are. Part of me says that in a few months she'll get over her extreme emotional state and be a bit more rational state.

But then every week that goes past, she gets more committed toward divorce, more established in her new lifestyle, more commitments she has made to her friends ("I really don't want him"), etc. 

Damned if I do, damned if I don't.


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## tgkid88

desperateguy I hear you my situation is about the same


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## tgkid88

I met my current wife after just having a child with another woman. I was a 25 year old kid who had just gotten out of prison for some burglaries(7yrs) i committed in high school and was out looking to make up for lost time. In the beginning of our relationship I was still sleeping with my ex and I had a few one night stands. A few months into our relationship she was pregnant with my son and we moved in together. My infidelity was unnoticed and continued throughout the next three years until I actually dated another woman and my "wife" became pregnant again with my daughter. My other relationship was then in the picture and there was a horrible discussion about break up and my "wife" forgave me. The was still some contact here and there between myself and the other woman(nothing psychical), which my "wife" always found out about. We put it aside and decided to get married. That was two and a half years ago and now my wife tells me she cannot get over that other relationship and wants a divorce and I don't. This all just came up a week ago and i am struggling. Any advice out there?
I never gave my wife and I and our relationship 100% and I am at the point where I want to do that but she doesn't. She doesn't want MC or to try anything. Are there any options that will help me save this relationship for both her, myself and our children?


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## Justadude

I'm in the same boat. Two months ago my wife came to me and said she wanted a divorce. Since then I found out she was having an affair (because I wasn't meeting her emotional needs...and I am guilty of that,) but now the affair is over, and I've forgiven her, and she won't come back. We are still married, and it's only been a week since her lover broke it up with her (she was heartbroken, and sobbing like a child,) and I then thought there was a decent chance to fix this relationship. But she is still proceeding with all the divorce stuff....she continues to look at apartments, and and selling the house. 

I told her lets take our time, and not make permenant choices, and she says she is just setting things up if we do divorce. But I want to fight to keep this, and I've been going a lot of making up...and maybe pushing her away by accident. I've been telling her I love her many 10 times a day, from someone who never used to say it. I'm lost, and confused, ready to fight for her...I just have no clear sense of how to do this. One thing I'm getting the impression of, is that I need to be a MAN, and not to beg her not to leave me...I think I've been showing too much weakness, and really that's unattractive to women. She has seen my ability to change, but I think I've over done it, and it's creeping her out. What I need is more time, and more respect from her...I know I can change, but I need to be given the opportunity. 

Any thoughts, I'm really a basket case...can't sleep, can't work...I'm a wreck.


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## EngineerVick

Sorry my reply is coming late. This is for all men going through the same...your wife out of the blue moon now wants a divorce. Fellows! listen, when a woman wants a divorce, THERE IS VIRTUALLY NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT; NOT EVEN GOD CAN SAVE YOU. Trust me when I say this; I have had friends go through the same. Women are dead set and implacable when it comes to relationships...this is their ultimate purpose on earth.

To those of you who are castigating yourselves saying; I would have done this, done that, made changes years back...it's not your fault, she simply wants out. If you find yourself in this position, MAN UP, BE CONFIDENT; DON'T PLEAD, DON'T CRY, DON'T PROMISE; Cheerfully ask her why she wants it? Could something be done to stop that from happening? If she insists she wants it, tell her fine, let's do it. If handled in this manner, she will never ever forget you as an INDEPENDENT, CONFIDENT MAN WHO CAN LIVE WITHOUT HER AND HAS OTHER OPTIONS. All women like a strong man! Crying, pleading, promising will only drive her away more and make her see you as a decrepit man. I understand what you are doing; which is expected because you love her, however you have showed her that over the years, in deeds and words, yes mistakes are expected from we men. Even the idea of you putting more time in work to make things better for her and children, should ring a bell to her that...you love her. So why have to resound that in a 30-second sound bite, pleading? 

I understand how painful this is, however you have to move on. Be strong, go out and have fun. Learn not to depend on a woman for your happiness. If you do and she decides to leave, you are back to square one. Women go through phases in life; at a point most will ask themselves...I have fulfilled my duty on earth which is to get married and have kids, why live under the same condition, day in, day out? 

Relationship 101, when a woman wants out, THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE CAN DO. Women can be heartless.


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## EngineerVick

nc_girl said:


> I left my husband back in October for what sounds like a similar situation, although there were some other issues as well. There was/is no other man at all, I simply reached my limit of what I could take any more and decided that I did not want or need to live the rest of my life being treated the way I was being treated. Since I have left, my husband has given me hardly any space, and has pushed and pushed for me to change my mind, and it has only served to push me away further until I now know there is no chance for reconciliation. *I would say you should give her some space - if there is any chance of her changing her mind, you will have to give her space and time, and a chance to miss you.*


Feminist driven comment in bold.... This reply should tell us MEN how women think. Implicitly, she is telling us to keep our lives on hold while she explores her avenues, and she should be able to listen, want you back only WHEN SHE WANTS YOU...even if it is 2 yrs, 5 yrs, or a decade later? You should wait for her? How stupid is that. 

Another thing I would like to add is the idea of pleading, crying and all that to win her back...this will only drive her away. I mentioned it and this lady also stated that. 

We, Men, have got to understand how women think...they think in the opposite always. Meaning, if she hears, knows, sees that you are living your life happily without her, blasting fun like hell, believe me, she will come crying for you to take her back. You cannot predict women; they think with their emotions and feelings, not their brain and logic.


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## Conrad

People can be heartless.


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## Horizon

EngineerVick said:


> Feminist driven comment in bold.... This reply should tell us MEN how women think. Implicitly, she is telling us to keep our lives on hold while she explores her avenues, and she should be able to listen, want you back only WHEN SHE WANTS...even if it is 2 yrs, 5 yrs, or a decade.
> 
> Another thing I would like to add is the idea of pleading, crying and all that to win her back...this will only drive her away. I mentioned it and this lady also stated that.
> 
> We, Men, have got to understand how women think...they think in the opposite always. Meaning, if she hears, knows, sees that you are living your life happily without her, blasting fun like hell, believe me, she will come crying for you to take her back. You cannot predict women; they think with their emotions and feelings, not their brain and logic.


Not my WS!


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## EngineerVick

Justadude said:


> I'm in the same boat. Two months ago my wife came to me and said she wanted a divorce. Since then I found out she was having an affair (because I wasn't meeting her emotional needs...and I am guilty of that,) but now the affair is over, and I've forgiven her, and she won't come back. We are still married, and it's only been a week since her lover broke it up with her (she was heartbroken, and sobbing like a child,) and I then thought there was a decent chance to fix this relationship. But she is still proceeding with all the divorce stuff....she continues to look at apartments, and and selling the house.
> 
> I told her lets take our time, and not make permenant choices, and she says she is just setting things up if we do divorce. But I want to fight to keep this, and I've been going a lot of making up...and maybe pushing her away by accident. I've been telling her I love her many 10 times a day, from someone who never used to say it. I'm lost, and confused, ready to fight for her...I just have no clear sense of how to do this. One thing I'm getting the impression of, is that I need to be a MAN, and not to beg her not to leave me...I think I've been showing too much weakness, and really that's unattractive to women. She has seen my ability to change, but I think I've over done it, and it's creeping her out. What I need is more time, and more respect from her...I know I can change, but I need to be given the opportunity.
> 
> Any thoughts, I'm really a basket case...can't sleep, can't work...I'm a wreck.


I know my reply is coming late but should serve as advice to anyone going through the same. Read my comments. Stop doing what you are doing; she is only going to see you as being weak. How could you still be with a woman that cheated on you, dumped by the guy she cheated on you with, and you still take her back? Talk about rewarding bad behavior with diamond. Man up, and bring this to an end. Proceed with the divorce and move on. She will have that respect for you as a no-nonsense man and a leader! As it stands now, she will continue to see you as a weak, indecisive man who will be there to mop her vomit when she needs it.


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## Lon

This is an old thread but I feel compelled to reply to vick's comment. You are generalizing about women, which isn't always bad, but understanding women isn't the same as knowing some formula. As to the advice to stop begging and pleading, it is the same as what is referred to as "the 180" on this website. It is not meant to win them back even if it does sometimes, it's about self respect and finding the fortitude to come out of this stronger than when you go in.


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## Justadude

EngineerVick said:


> I know my reply is coming late but should serve as advice to anyone going through the same. Read my comments. Stop doing what you are doing; she is only going to see you as being weak. How could you still be with a woman that cheated on you, dumped by the guy she cheated on you with, and you still take her back? Talk about rewarding bad behavior with diamond. Man up, and bring this to an end. Proceed with the divorce and move on. She will have that respect for you as a no-nonsense man and a leader! As it stands now, she will continue to see you as a weak, indecisive man who will be there to mop her vomit when she needs it.


Vick,

I agree with you, and now that I am divorced and looking back…there was NOTHING I could have done to “fix” it. It would have required fixing her, which is impossible. I did try for a year to make it work, and I really don’t regret that because after all that, I now know there is not a shadow of a doubt that there was no way to repair our marriage. So the kids will suffer, and a family will be divided forever. Nothing I can do about it, and I think my actions were noble in giving it everything I had to prevent the split. So I can move forward without any “what if’s.” Did I make mistakes? Yes of course, I’m human…and so did she. The difference is character, I made a commitment, and she didn’t.

Women who leave good men, and break up families because of their emotions, are not worth the time of day…especially if they slept with another. At some point in life, you have to grow up, and if a grown woman is looking for “butterflies,” and chasing those who will give you “butterflies” let them go. The wedding vow does not say until my emotions change, it’s till death do us part, in good times and in bad. I took that seriously, and she didn’t. Let God deal with her, I am moving on with my life, and this is a golden opportunity for me to make changes that I’ve long needed. I made the commitment that good was going to come out of this no matter what the outcome, and I am determined for that to be true.

In the last year I’ve had more personal growth that almost at any time in my life. I’ve identified things that have held me back in all aspects of life, and I’m working to overcome them. I’m stronger in: my faith, mentally, and emotionally. I’m facing fears that I never had the courage to previously. The world is opening anew. Soon I’ll be at a point where I’ll consider dating, but I don’t want that now. Too much growth is going on, and I don’t want any distractions. 

To any guys going through the painful stage of this….hang in there! Things will get better. She is NOT worth it, give that thought some consideration. If you wouldn’t do that to her, then you are superior to her…and don’t be afraid of the future. She is the one hurting the kids, and you…what type of person does this? Nobody should expect you to be perfect. Dump her cheating ass to the curb, and do not look back….let God deal with her....or if you don’t believe in God…karma is a *****. But eventually you come out of it, and use this to move forward!


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## oviid

I don't know if anyone still looks at this thread but I have something to contribute.

I'm in this situation too. Married for close to 20 years, still can't believe it's been that long , several kids and here I am. The thing I read about most is the husband searches his heart to find out what he did wrong so that he can fix that and thus fix his marriage. That's good but the fixing you do needs to be for yourself. 

In the end it's good to improve yourself and make good changes. They will serve you well and the people in your life, except for the people who don't want to be in your life. I won't say "man up" but the reality of it is if she wants out you have to let her go. It sucks I know, I'm in that boat right now, but I also feel like I am a good person with much to offer. I will continue to be a good father, hard worker and decent person. This divorce will not change that in me. I love my wife but I can't fix her or make her be with me. 

I also know things will be very hard for me very soon. The thought of not being with my kids every day is the hardest thing I've ever faced but I will face it and I know that I will be OK.


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## Justadude

oviid said:


> I don't know if anyone still looks at this thread but I have something to contribute.
> 
> I'm in this situation too. Married for close to 20 years, still can't believe it's been that long , several kids and here I am. The thing I read about most is the husband searches his heart to find out what he did wrong so that he can fix that and thus fix his marriage. That's good but the fixing you do needs to be for yourself.
> 
> In the end it's good to improve yourself and make good changes. They will serve you well and the people in your life, except for the people who don't want to be in your life. I won't say "man up" but the reality of it is if she wants out you have to let her go. It sucks I know, I'm in that boat right now, but I also feel like I am a good person with much to offer. I will continue to be a good father, hard worker and decent person. This divorce will not change that in me. I love my wife but I can't fix her or make her be with me.
> 
> I also know things will be very hard for me very soon. The thought of not being with my kids every day is the hardest thing I've ever faced but I will face it and I know that I will be OK.


Hang in there, it's really hard but with your current attitude you will be fine. Take it day by day.

It still amazes me that this happens so often, I really don't think I will ever 100% trust a woman again. Maybe that's a good thing, we all trusted to much...truth is that anybody can change their mind at any time, and just leave. Just hard to believe that the women we were with have that little character, but there you go...it's reality so we must deal with it.


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## SadOldDad

Wow, Wow, Wow. What an amazing thread. My first day on this site and soon to be separated. Identify with so many aspects (but not all) described here. It is strangely both a relief and sad to read so many stories of guys going through pretty much exactly what I am. I don't feel quite so alone in the world. Some good advise on moving on. Thanks to all the contributors, you have made my shocking day a bit easier to bare. I have dumped all my thoughts, letters and emails to my wife and notes onto a blog to help get it out of my head in some understandable order both for my own sanity and as a record possibly the kids in years to come so that they can see I did everything possible to try and save our family.
Thanks again


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## Justadude

Day by Day...make the choice to use this for your betterment. Its the best thing that I ever did. The world will open anew.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WayUpNorth

Yes, if they are going to leave, you won't stop them. My ex had an affair with her boss and possibly another co-worker, and her (excuse while I throw up just a bit) her fat, old cousin. 
3 months after the papers were signed, she married the cousin. Now I hear how miserable she is. He is lazy. They are always broke. If anything get done, it is her that has to do it.
.....and I laugh, and laugh, and laugh. The grass wasn't really greener.


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## Brokenman85

Her cousin? That's disgusting. Where do you live? It isn't legal to marry your cousin in most States. It shouldn't be legal in ANY state if you ask me.


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## tom67

WayUpNorth said:


> Yes, if they are going to leave, you won't stop them. My ex had an affair with her boss and possibly another co-worker, and her (excuse while I throw up just a bit) her fat, old cousin.
> 3 months after the papers were signed, she married the cousin. Now I hear how miserable she is. He is lazy. They are always broke. If anything get done, it is her that has to do it.
> .....and I laugh, and laugh, and laugh. The grass wasn't really greener.


WOW!


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## northernlights

It's always frustrating to me to read these posts, because I'm kind of like your wife. I sat on my feelings for years, waiting for them to pass, afraid that telling my husband outright would hurt his feelings.

Then, I finally told him. And even though I felt like it was possible we had passed the point of no return, I wanted to keep trying. Because logically, I fell in love with him once, right? Shouldn't it be possible, even if it takes a few years and we have to be patient, to get something back?

And, he just didn't give a crap. He didn't do anything, he didn't try... he didn't even remember the conversation a few days later. So it'd happen every few months, finally we separated, but we're living together again and he's still doing nothing. 

It's great to see so many guys willing to fight, but it sure makes me jealous that I have one who isn't.

However, I'll tell you what I wanted from my H, in case it's what your wife wants from you. Man up! Get in shape, be kind. Read about the 180 and be the best man and father you can be. And give her space. NO PRESSURE FOR SEX! When we feel sexually used by men, it's really hard to recover from that. Take up a new hobby, do something with the kids. If I had to watch my H have fun with our kids without me, it might make me jealous but interested in joining in.

Good luck. I do think that with time, reconciliation is possible. But you have to give her emotional space while you show her, with your actions, that you've changed.


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## LoveAtDaisys

I feel so bad for you, OP, because I understand the pain this must have caused you. And I hope, since this is an old thread, that you have been able to find peace.

But let me reiterate what others have said: once I was set on a divorce, it was like a switch changed in my head.

Nothing my husband says or does is going to change my mind. I have pleaded, begged, and even prayed (I'm not religious) for him to work on our relationship for the last year and a half and he hasn't. At this point, even though he tells me he has changed and he wants to win my love, I don't trust or believe his words. In fact, his begging and pleading just feels manipulative and pathetic at this point.

You have to understand, OP, if your wife is to the point of asking for a divorce, in her mind you have already broken a million promises to change/be better/stop doing whatever is making her so unhappy. So to her, your words are just that - empty words. 

In my case, even if my husband were to come back and 180 into the man he used to be, there would still be a part of me waiting for the charade to end. I don't trust him anymore. And I know that it isn't fair for me to keep him in a relationship with a woman who doesn't trust him.

I'm not saying it's impossible. But I am saying that it may take a lot longer than you are expecting to rebuild that lost trust and friendship, if it ever comes back. If you are serious about it, I would honestly read some of the advice threads for WS's that come in - although the situation is slightly different, the advice given may prove helpful.

((And for the record, no, I've never cheated on my husband. Never had the inclination. I've just been unhappy for a long time.))


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## RonHanh

Hi LoveAtDaisy, if your husband had changed his behavior after learning you wanted a divorce would it have made a difference? In other words, if instead of saying he was going to change and become a good husband to you, he had just made the change so that you could see the change on a regular and consistent basis would you have considered reconciling?


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## LoveAtDaisys

For me, Ron, the issue isn't that he is/is not making a change. It's that in my mind, I've asked for change multiple times and never seen any progress.

While his making a change would probably give me pause, once I got to the point of actually deciding to get a divorce I was beyond R. However, had he made those changes it would have definitely made me more willing to consider dating him again after the divorce.


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## lifeistooshort

This happened with my ex too; I begged him for years to go to counseling, told him I was miserable, and he blew me off. Actually told me I should be happy because he'd love to have my easy life (translation: he thought I did nothing), and generally telegraphed that he couldn't stand me. Imagine my surprise when I told him I wanted a divorce; he begged, pleased, ran to counselors; the thing was by that point I was done with him. Period. The reason was because in my mind he'd shown me who he was and I didn't trust him. I would've viewed any changes he made as phony and temporary, because he didn't give a sh$t that i was miserable, he only knew I was going to dump him. It had nothing to do with me, he was worried about the impact to HIS life. As long as he thought I wasn't going anywhere I could f!ck off for all he cared because that situation met his needs. This is where a lot of women find themselves mentally and is the reason most of these wives don't come back. You may not have meant it but in their minds you showe them who you are: someone that really doesn't care about them all that much. Or if you do it's less than you care about you.
Now that it's been a number years I can say with a lot of certainty that my ex would not have changed because that's who he is. I do feel bad for the guys here that do seem to want to rebuild, but I think it's a lot like your health in that you have to take care of it when it's good; if you wait until it falls apart you can try to manage it but it'll never really be good again.
The best I can offer here is to stop pestering her and go about your own life, improving yourself where you can. Maybe she'll see it and want you back; you don't want her back simply because she sees how hard life is without you. You want her back because she sees value in you and wants you back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Convict

This thread is really the best support group anyone can have.
I never knew so many men went through the same situation. I have been married to my wife for ten years, for the most past we had a good or reasonable marriage. We had our ups and downs, but I thought we were solid enough to keep it all intact. We have two wonderful kids who are now 7 and 4. Life became a bit more challenging two years ago because she didn't really want to join me on my job abroad, which entails living abroad for about three or four years. Against my best judgement, I agreed to her request, and we decided to make the best of it since I assumed that we had a solid marriage and we would visit each other enough to keep the marriage intact. Almost two years ago, my wife first told me how unhappy she was....for different reasons...mostly she felt I was also neglecting her...like many other posts here. That really jolted me so much....even though at first I was shocked and a bit hurt...but for the most part it made me to go into overdrive to try and make her happier. I paid more attention to her, talked to her more, listened to her, and really did almost everything she wanted or asked for. But the more this happened, the more it became clear it was never going to be enough. Then she started mentioning divorce. At times I would say to hell with everything and agree to get divorced. And at times I would try and talk and logic with her to ask her to try and save the marriage. I really did try and work my butt off to save it, and I swallowed my pride over and over again to preserve my family. Many of my friends thinks that she must be attracted to another man, and while the possibility does of course exist, I don't think that is the case. Like others who posted, I think my wife has just shut down and stopped loving me. She refuses now to even try to fix our M. She doesn't even care to try MC even though she was the one who suggested we need it at first. I have tried everything, and I finally told her lets just get D and stop wasting time. I realize it takes two to save a marriage, and only one to end it. I do love my wife and always have...and still do. And I can't stand the thought of my family being torn apart. I am confused and torn. While acknowledging my mistakes and imperfections, I feel I can no longer trust her. I have given her my all for the past two years and got nothing but requests for D in return. I am confused and torn between trying to bring out the old wife I once had and accepting the fact that maybe she is not worth it. It's hard to love a wife that doesn't love u back. And it's hard to fight for a wife who doesn't want to be in a marriage. I know many of us men are in the same boat...and just hearing all your thoughts makes the pain and confusion less of a burden to bear. I have told myself that life will go on no doubt...but I am just sad to see all my investment in this marriage go down the drain...and heartbroken that my kids will grow up in a broken family. My thoughts go out to all the men who are going through this.


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## Convict

And I know a lot of people who posted said that when the wife asks for divorce there is nothing we husbands can do about it. For the most past I think that's true. But there is always a part of me that is wondering what if I gave it just one last try. It is confusing, but the thought of trying one last time to save it all shouldn't be all that bad should it? I have indeed reached a point where I have no regrets for not trying enough and doing my part, but like the original thread says, what can u do when the wife just stops trying and says she stopped loving u and wants out? It's confusing, because there have been moments, just moments though, when my wife would cry and tell me she wants our marriage back and she wants me and wants our love restored, that she was just crying out for help and doesn't want a divorce. Then only a few days or weeks would go by and she would recoil again and say that she doesn't want to fix the M and that she is done. I don't know if I can bring out that hidden part in her out again, or is dead forever. I feel like I am dealing with two different women, one who needs me, and the other who doesn't care about me or our marriage. Sadly, the second woman is the one who dominates, though I do still cling on to the faintest hope that I can revive the first woman.


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## eyesopen

Convict - I am the OP of this thread. First of all, I feel for you. It is hard, confusing, and a lot more than that (hell I lost 10kg in the first month just from shock). Keep using TAM as a sounding board, there are good people here who will support you and the venting is also important.

I am officially D now, almost exactly 2 years after this all began. No, I did not get a second chance either. Just "I don't love you any more" with no interest to try (OK and yes t here was "I am sorry it has come to this, I wish it was different but it isn't").

The truth that you *must* realize, sooner or later, is that you cannot change _anyone_ except yourself. No one. You have a responsibility for *your* life (and your children of course, if there are any). And while the memory of last love stings like bitter poison that's all it is, a memory now. Believe me, you do not want to be with someone who does not love you. You do not. Your last part of the second post says one of the most important things, that you "cling" to hope. That is attachment, and you have to let it go sooner or later but let it go you must or else it will drive you crazy.

And, listen carefully though you may not believe or want to believe what I am about to write, but you might just find, in some time, that this woman whom I have no doubt you loved in your own way, has done you a tremendous service in life and given you the opportunity for a fresh, clean, good, and BETTER start. One where you (and she also) can find someone who is better for you, in this phase of life.

The past is dead my friend. Tomorrow has not come. Dwelling on either rather than on the present moment will just cause you hurt and pain.

Do the 180. Do it for you, not anyone else. **Allow yourself time to grieve and mourn your marriage**. It is a type of death of that you can be sure. But then get up, shake yourself off and get on with life.


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## Convict

Eyesopen. Just hearing from you and reading your thoughts and advice was more than enough to give me a boost. The sad truth is that I know you are right on every single account. It has become impossible to love a wife that does not love me back. And at the end of the day I would be killing myself slowly if I even managed to stay in a marriage that will remain clinically dead. I remain torn between my pride and reality, and the fact that I will allow my family to break up. The thought of having my kids grow up in a single parent household just kills me. I always wished I could magically bring back the "original" wife I used to have and married, but she seems to have buried that person away long long ago. I know in the back of my mind and heart that life will go and even improve once we get divorced, but it is already distressing and turning my mind upside down. And I know I need to stop it turning my life upside down, and I know that will take time to overcome. I am happy for you and proud that you have moved on and seem rejuvenated. You did a great service to us by starting this thread. If you had the chance, would you have given it one last final try and shot to save it even if all your efforts were doomed to fail anyway? I do wish, for the sake of my family at least, that I could muster the energy and courage and willingness to say: "I will not let u destroy my family. I will not let my kids go through this. We were a great family once and I will never ever be the one to let go of it. And I will not allow you to get rid of me. I will do what it takes to keep us alive. I will keep sacrificing and working to bring out the good we had together. I know there is a part of you that remembers how great we once were. I know deep down that we can overcome anything and have the best marriage ever. I will everything I can to make this work and we will succeed."

I know this sounds like a desperate last stand, and it might just be that. But I want to say it with confidence, and I don't want to ever regret not taking the last stand, for the sake of my kids at least. If there is a 1 percent chance that it will resonate with her...do u think I should give it a shot? Again, I know it seems desperate, but i will feel I carried my responsibility to the fullest and will feel totally at peace with myself if it doesn't work. 

In all cases, like I said, your support was the most uplifting thing that happened to me all day.


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## eyesopen

Convict - my eyes well up with tears reading your post. I too wanted to try, but I was not given the chance. I regret that extremely. But maybe, just maybe, there is wisdom in that also. There is a time for everything. One of the most profound realizations for me on my journey was to realize, I mean really realize, that *nothing lasts forever and everything is impermanent and in motion*. Trying to hold on to stability in a world where there is inherently none is a source of much pain. And I don't mean this in a pessimistic way. The this simple realization, along with the truth of pain caused by attachments, has changed my life (and, wouldn't you know, I have my X to thank for this, and I am grateful every day, even midst the pain).

I also need to tell you something else. I too agonized over the "broken family" phase, hurting for what my children will go though. But you know something? Much as it might be strange to hear, you will still be a family. Maybe not a traditional "single home" one, but a family none the less. Assuming that your X is a capable and loving parent and able to hold up her part in the upbringing of your kids, they will have two loving parents that are fully involved and present for them. My own kids, 7 and 5, have a great life, all things being equal. Yes, they have two homes (walking distance at the moment) and yes at least the little one does voice now and then how she wants mom+dad (together). But I know they have it good as I see others and know how bad it can get.

You will reclaim your roll as a father. I too thought I was an OK dad (really not that bad) but I am so much better now there is really no comparison. Divorce seems to force that on you. And the kids "gain" you back also.

A few days ago there was a function for Family Day at my daughters kindergarten. We both went of course. Don't think for a moment that my heart was not a little sad, not only to look at my X whom I loved but also for the "family" that was lost (as a single unit). But then I focused on my daughter, she was happy, smiling, both her parents were there for her.

Do I think you should try? That is a complex question. On the one hand I think yes, it is worth trying. Worth eliminating that doubt or at least knowing that you gave it your 100% shot. But again, it takes two to dance. If she is not really, really interested then it will be fighting the wind. When I was hit in the face, I bought so many books on "how to win your wife back" and even talked to some snake-oil selling "professionals" who said they could help me get her back if I did what they said (for a fee of course). But in the end, I had to respect her wishes. You can only ask so many times. And again, you don't want someone that does not want to be with you.

Understand that there are reasons your marriage has failed. Understand that you own exactly 50% of them, no more no less. The other 50% is hers. Don't beat yourself up on either account. Also realize that marriages don't just fall apart one day. It is a slippery slope. Believe me I know. Give it time, you will be able to reflect and see the signs that were there, even if you didn't see them, say but did not understand, or refuse to see even now. Believe me, it was not out of the blue. And again, no blame here, only facts.

I want to go back to the issue of the kids. My best friend gave me a golden piece of advice in those beginning days: "focus on your kids, they are the only real thing you have". He was so right and I am so grateful for his advice. Focus on your kids. Get close to them. If you are, get closer. You are their father, and that will never ever change. In this new phase you will shoulder more responsibility. You will have to learn new parenting roles. Do it. Make time. Be there for them like a rock in the ocean since they will need you solid as that rock in the times to come. Weather your own storms inside. Be that rock for them on the outside.

Lastly, read. That is, if you like. I read tons of books in the first months. They helped a lot. I now know that it was, apart from a shocking blow, a spiritual crisis for me (and believe me I was never a spiritual person, at least not on t he outside). Take care of yourself. Go to workshops and support groups. Take up sports (I am training for my first marathon). Give yourself t i m e.

I am sending you these two very special songs:

Snatam Kaur ~ Peter Kater ~ Carry Me - YouTube

Heart of the Universe (`♥´) Snatam Kaur & Peter Kater - YouTube

I also recommend this book, one of many others (but just this one for now):

Spiritual Divorce: Divorce as a Catalyst for an Extraordinary Life: Debbie Ford: 9780061227127: Amazon.com: Books

Peace.


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## Convict

Eyesopen. I can't tell u how often I kept refreshing my page hoping that I would hear back from u so soon. I did also shed a few, actually many, tears reading your reply. I don't know what got me more emotional, the fact my my marriage may soon end, or the fact that there was someone out there taking time to support me in this difficult time. 

Again, I know u r right on every count. And I fully hear u when u talk about the kids. Mine are 7 and 4....so I think we are in a very similar boat. Like u, I really began investing overtime in my kids when I realized the marriage was on the verge of being over. I spent every possible free minute of time with them. And still do my best to do the same till my last breath on this earth. You r totally right, the kids are everything.

I have still not decided whether or not to take my last stand. I guess we can look at it from so many angles. As sad and empty as I am, I know God is watching over me, and I know that whatever happens it will be because it is meant to be. I am sad but I have inner peace. I want to see if need to make that very final attempt to have utmost and complete peace in my soul. With zero regrets. I have not decided what I should do, and don't know if I will even get the chance to say what I am thinking of saying. My mind and heart are as confused as hell. 

I have no doubt that I will reach closure should this fail, and I will get up and live my life after it's over eventually. You are a magnificent inspiration to every single one of us in the same situation, and I can just picture myself, like u, having a great day with my kids while holding my head up high despite everything. I know it can never be the same for me and them, and it takes more work and effort, but like u said, I will always be their father, and that will never change, and my divorce will never change that.

Thank you for the links, for lifting me up when I feel so down, and for inspiring me to get ready for whatever God has in store for me.


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## eyesopen

Remember - "Genitor sempiternum praesens"

Thank you for your kind words. I am here for you whenever you feel like writing.


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## Convict

Thank you for everything u said and did for me. Words cannot express that enough. Stay strong and well, and god bless u and ur kids.


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## Pictureless

Great thread. I'm out of tears but if I had some it would be for the last few posts.

There's nothing a man can do when his wife says she doesn't love you any more and she files for divorce. You have to let go. 

The hardest part for me has been blaming myself. But like others have said, you only own 50%, and she is 100% responsible for calling it quits. No more try's, no more chances. Just have to accept it. If there was any love it wouldn't have got to this point. 

At least I found the strength to honor her. She doesn't want anything to do with me. She has never called or looked back. I have not contacted her and won't. I can't. It won't do any good anyway so why bother. It's best to part with dignity. Loving someone means you will let them go if that's what they want. It's cliche but it's true. Besides, I have to let go because what choice do I have? I've been rejected. It's not that bad really.

Therefore, no matter the reason why, we are better off. Because relationships don't work when only one person is in love.


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## Conrad

Convict said:


> Eyesopen. I can't tell u how often I kept refreshing my page hoping that I would hear back from u so soon. I did also shed a few, actually many, tears reading your reply. I don't know what got me more emotional, the fact my my marriage may soon end, or the fact that there was someone out there taking time to support me in this difficult time.
> 
> Again, I know u r right on every count. And I fully hear u when u talk about the kids. Mine are 7 and 4....so I think we are in a very similar boat. Like u, I really began investing overtime in my kids when I realized the marriage was on the verge of being over. I spent every possible free minute of time with them. And still do my best to do the same till my last breath on this earth. You r totally right, the kids are everything.
> 
> I have still not decided whether or not to take my last stand. I guess we can look at it from so many angles. As sad and empty as I am, I know God is watching over me, and I know that whatever happens it will be because it is meant to be. I am sad but I have inner peace. I want to see if need to make that very final attempt to have utmost and complete peace in my soul. With zero regrets. I have not decided what I should do, and don't know if I will even get the chance to say what I am thinking of saying. My mind and heart are as confused as hell.
> 
> I have no doubt that I will reach closure should this fail, and I will get up and live my life after it's over eventually. You are a magnificent inspiration to every single one of us in the same situation, and I can just picture myself, like u, having a great day with my kids while holding my head up high despite everything. I know it can never be the same for me and them, and it takes more work and effort, but like u said, I will always be their father, and that will never change, and my divorce will never change that.
> 
> Thank you for the links, for lifting me up when I feel so down, and for inspiring me to get ready for whatever God has in store for me.


What would your "last stand" be?


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## Convict

Conrad. Thanks for asking. I had written earlier that I am torn between making my one last final stand or just accepting reality and giving up. I don't know if there is anything left in my wife or marriage to save. I knew we did have something, and always hoped that I can somehow extract it out of her and revive it once again.

I tried hard and often, and at the moments it seems it has failed. My heart tells me it's over, so does my mind. The signs are clear. But one last part of me is wondering if I should spell it out in one last stand, to put any potential regrets aside and to have total inner peace if I fail.

I would want to really, strongly, emotionally confidently, spell it out: I will not let this marriage or family fall apart. I will not accept that it's over. We have a beautiful family and I will never allow anything to happen to it. I want to raise our kids and I want to do it with u. We had great moments together, and I know part of u remembers and misses those moments. I will do whatever it takes, and sacrifice as much as I need to, to make this family and marriage succeed. And I will not let u get rid of me.

That's what I am thinking about. I know it sounds desperate. Maybe it is. Maybe it will ring her bell. It probably won't, like I sense in advance and like most people already said on this thread. Will I lose anything by trying? Maybe some more pride, but nothing more. If there is a remote chance it might make her think again about our family, and by extension us, is it worth it? 

It's hard for me to decide right now, and maybe I will see the light that it and she are not worth it. Maybe I may wish to give it a try but will not have the courage. And maybe I won't even get a proper chance. 

My feelings are in flux. I can feel the inevitable divorce happening this time. Am just wondering is there any way possible to splash her out of her feelings.


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## Conrad

How would you describe a "last stand"?

What tactics would you use?


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## Convict

Pictureless. Thanks for your words. And again I should really thank Eyesopen for this thread. I seem to have hijacked it. I just didn't know what to do or who to talk to or who to share all this with. I found this site by chance, read a lot of posts, and connected to so many of them immediately. 

It was here that I found an easy place to express my feelings the way they really are. 

I hear what u went through, and hopefully I will have the fortitude to move on if my marriage collapses and ends in divorce. Your insight and personal experience are truly appreciated.


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## Convict

Conrad. I have already told her I am ready to sign the divorce papers. Part of me reached the decision because I reached the conviction that it's over. Part of me was hoping it might make her step back and rethink. 

Don't know if anything changed in her head, but that's where we are now.

If I were to take the last stand, it would be right before we sign the papers, or a day before. If I get the chance. And if of course I make that decision. 

I am a very confused man. I used to be strong and clear minded. I guess years of marriage make you vulnerable and soft. 

If I do try and it fails, I would have only wasted a few more minutes of my time, and some spare pride as well. But I will feel at peace with myself, and I will now that ending the marriage was nothing I could change no matter how hard I tried. I would finally be at peace with myself.


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## Pictureless

Convict said:


> Pictureless. Thanks for your words. And again I should really thank Eyesopen for this thread. I seem to have hijacked it. I just didn't know what to do or who to talk to or who to share all this with. I found this site by chance, read a lot of posts, and connected to so many of them immediately.
> 
> It was here that I found an easy place to express my feelings the way they really are.
> 
> I hear what u went through, and hopefully I will have the fortitude to move on if my marriage collapses and ends in divorce. Your insight and personal experience are truly appreciated.


You're welcome. I think you know what you need to do. Do nothing and move on. You know this is right. Do nothing and move on. There is no more final stands. You approach her again and she will reject you again. You don't want that. Just move on. She's not calling, emailing, and texting out of love is she? What does that tell you? 

Grieve, heal, and accept. Forgive you and her. Live. Or just stay hurt. Your choice. Stop thinking about her. Start thinking about you.


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## IronWine29

Hey Convict. I think you are more likely to drive her away by giving her a "last stand" speech.

Perhaps it may be better to go the MC route. If she says she doesn't want to work on the marriage, tell her you can accept that, but if that is the case, you want to go to try to have a "good divorce." The MC would probably want to meet with both of you separately and give you a third party opinion about whether there is any chance of saving the marriage. If it proves intractable, then you know you tried, and you'll have some closure.


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## Conrad

Convict said:


> Conrad. I have already told her I am ready to sign the divorce papers. Part of me reached the decision because I reached the conviction that it's over. Part of me was hoping it might make her step back and rethink.
> 
> Don't know if anything changed in her head, but that's where we are now.
> 
> If I were to take the last stand, it would be right before we sign the papers, or a day before. If I get the chance. And if of course I make that decision.
> 
> I am a very confused man. I used to be strong and clear minded. I guess years of marriage make you vulnerable and soft.
> 
> If I do try and it fails, I would have only wasted a few more minutes of my time, and some spare pride as well. But I will feel at peace with myself, and I will now that ending the marriage was nothing I could change no matter how hard I tried. I would finally be at peace with myself.


You do realize that the root cause of this is her loss of attraction and respect for you.

Can you name 3 things that are different about you now compared with the man she was first attracted to?


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## northernlights

I'll wager it's not things about you that have changed that have driven your wife away, but specific things that you have done that have caused her to lose her trust and/or respect for you. Do you know what those things are? Will she tell you? She might not even realize it yet, so she might not be able to tell you. But she might know exactly what it is.

There's no chance your wife would pop over here and share her perspective, is there?


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## Conrad

northernlights said:


> I'll wager it's not things about you that have changed that have driven your wife away, but specific things that you have done that have caused her to lose her trust and/or respect for you. Do you know what those things are? Will she tell you? She might not even realize it yet, so she might not be able to tell you. But she might know exactly what it is.
> 
> There's no chance your wife would pop over here and share her perspective, is there?


She likely doesn't have an idea either.

It's simply her perception and when forced to verbalize, she falls back on the crutch of blaming him for the relationship failure.


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## northernlights

No, I don't think it's that. Look at all the posts from men on here... all the men who had NO IDEA their wives were unhappy. And when the wives finally give up and walk out, what do they come here and ask?

How can I get her back? How can I get her to continue to meet _my_ needs? Not, How did I miss this? What did I do wrong? What's her perspective on all this?


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## Conrad

northernlights said:


> No, I don't think it's that. Look at all the posts from men on here... all the men who had NO IDEA their wives were unhappy. And when the wives finally give up and walk out, what do they come here and ask?
> 
> How can I get her back? How can I get her to continue to meet _my_ needs? Not, How did I miss this? What did I do wrong? What's her perspective on all this?


I realize your autobiography is different.

You expressed yourself and your spouse didn't respond.

That's not the way it is with most guys here.


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## Convict

Thank you all once again for sharing your thoughts. I know I am deceiving myself by thinking she might reassess things and look at our marriage from a fresh perspective. And I do know that I have to accept this reality and move on. Yes, surely there are things I did or didn't do to turn her away from me. The sad thing is that when I found out and tried to become more of the man she actually asked for, it was never enough and she did have the new me that she said she wanted after all. That's what kills me. I was right there in front of her being the new improved, by choice and happily so, husband that she asked for and she turned me away.

Yes, reality sucks. I played a part in getting us to where we are. I tried playing more than my part to fix things, and it's not working. 

Like I said, I have confused thoughts. I am sure many of us have a million different thoughts going through our minds at the same time under the circumstances. I know I have to accept things for what they are and for what they have become, and I know that time will eventually heal all the hurt. It's just hard, and we all know that.

I did get out this evening with friends and it took my mind off things. It made me forget her for the moment. I hope I can forget the marriage and the memories when it is time to move on.


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## Conrad

Convict,

We have a saying around here. Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.

Women rarely respect a man who meekly follows her orders.

Yet, she won't realize this either.


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## Convict

Conrad. I guess that's a good way to look at things.

I know she says a lot of rubbish sometimes. She even admits that.

But u r right, it's what she does that counts. And what's she has done is stop loving me, she became distant, and wants out, and is even acting like it's over. 

Whether or not I try and have one last talk with her or not, I know this will never be sustainable, and I must move on. And I will survive. I have made up my mind. Now I just need to act on it.


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## Conrad

Convict said:


> Conrad. I guess that's a good way to look at things.
> 
> I know she says a lot of rubbish sometimes. She even admits that.
> 
> But u r right, it's what she does that counts. And what's she has done is stop loving me, she became distant, and wants out, and is even acting like it's over.
> 
> Whether or not I try and have one last talk with her or not, I know this will never be sustainable, and I must move on. And I will survive. I have made up my mind. Now I just need to act on it.


Don't talk differently.

Think of ways to behave differently.

Talk less - do more.

Pay attention to what sort of behavior is attractive to women.


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## RonHanh

*Re: Re: My wife does not love me and wants a divorce, can I win her back?*



Convict said:


> Thank you all once again for sharing your thoughts. I know I am deceiving myself by thinking she might reassess things and look at our marriage from a fresh perspective. And I do know that I have to accept this reality and move on. Yes, surely there are things I did or didn't do to turn her away from me. The sad thing is that when I found out and tried to become more of the man she actually asked for, it was never enough and she did have the new me that she said she wanted after all. That's what kills me. I was right there in front of her being the new improved, by choice and happily so, husband that she asked for and she turned me away.
> 
> Yes, reality sucks. I played a part in getting us to where we are. I tried playing more than my part to fix things, and it's not working.
> 
> Like I said, I have confused thoughts. I am sure many of us have a million different thoughts going through our minds at the same time under the circumstances. I know I have to accept things for what they are and for what they have become, and I know that time will eventually heal all the hurt. It's just hard, and we all know that.
> 
> I did get out this evening with friends and it took my mind off things. It made me forget her for the moment. I hope I can forget the marriage and the memories when it is time to move on.


When men change after their wives have given up and walked away the women don't believe the change is real and permanent. They think the men are changing only to save the marriage and once it is saved the men will revert back to their old ways of neglecting them or taking them for granted or whatever it is in their specific circumstance. It will take a long time of this change being consistent before they can trust it.


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## Pictureless

Convict said:


> I have made up my mind. Now I just need to act on it.


Good! Now don't backslide and change your mind again. Trust me, it's better to prepare for life without her.

Remember the movie _Platoon_?

"Take the pain."










Stick around. We're here for you.


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## Convict

Conrad. The funny things is that is what I have been doing trying to make her happier. I talked less and acted more. And changed more. I listened more and adapted myself accordingly to try and make her happy. I did that all by choice, consciously, to please her, to respond to her, and to save us. 

But it was not enough. In her own words I was too late and she had shut off. That was it. Full stop. End of story for her. 

And here I am. The more I spill out my feelings on this thread, the more I realize it is indeed over. 

If ever I meet someone new later on, I know she will be damn lucky to have me cos I will have the wisdom and foresight to do all things that I supposedly failed to do in my current almost over marriage.


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## Conrad

Convict said:


> Conrad. The funny things is that is what I have been doing trying to make her happier. I talked less and acted more. And changed more. I listened more and adapted myself accordingly to try and make her happy. I did that all by choice, consciously, to please her, to respond to her, and to save us.
> 
> But it was not enough. In her own words I was too late and she had shut off. That was it. Full stop. End of story for her.
> 
> And here I am. The more I spill out my feelings on this thread, the more I realize it is indeed over.
> 
> If ever I meet someone new later on, I know she will be damn lucky to have me cos I will have the wisdom and foresight to do all things that I supposedly failed to do in my current almost over marriage.


Be careful.

Have you been to counseling?

What was your childhood like?

How about hers?


----------



## Convict

RonHanh. U r right. I realized that changing myself didn't do the trick, even if I was sincere about it. But for her it was too little too late. Don't know if I can agree with her, but that is what she thought and said.

Pictureless. Thanks again. I am trying to look at my potential new life ahead of me. And hopefully I will embark on my new journey with no regrets.


----------



## Convict

Conrad.

We have not been to counseling. Some time ago she said she wanted to, and tho I wasn't enthusiastic I told her i didn't mind. But it never happened. When things got really bad I offered to try MC, but she was done trying.

I grew up as normal a family as it gets, parents still married, loyal, and seem happy, at least content.

She grew up as a teen through her parents divorce. I know that took a toll on her and she said before that it made her hate her dad and men, till she met me, but after ten years she realized she can go her own way and become independent and doesn't need me or any man. 

The thing is, people do change. He'll I changed a lot. We all have cycles of ups and downs. So does she. That's why it's confusing.


----------



## northernlights

Conrad said:


> I realize your autobiography is different.
> 
> You expressed yourself and your spouse didn't respond.
> 
> That's not the way it is with most guys here.


But I doubt that's what most of their wives would say. My H could easily come here and play dumb too. More likely though, the wives of the men in this thread tried telling them, but they didn't understand.

Look, women my age and older were raised in a culture that told us WE are almost solely responsible for our relationships. We read magazines from age 10 and up telling us how to please our boyfriends and husbands. We're fully socialized to communicate our needs in a gentle, man-friendly way. Don't get me wrong, I think that socialization is harmful for men and women alike, but it makes it highly unlikely that the wives of the men here think they didn't try their hardest to get through to their husbands.

Yet the husbands get here and say, "we were so happy, how do I get her back," not understanding that _they_ were happy, but _she_ wasn't. I think most wives would look at this board, shake their heads, and walk away. Because the men are ultimately still asking how to get their wives back so their needs can be met, and not what they missed and how they missed it.

So my advice to the OPs here is, if you want to try to repair things, start asking questions and listening to the answers. She might not feel like talking, but maybe she will. Ask her when she started to feel neglected, what you did that made her feel unloved, how she tried telling you. At the very least, you'll learn a lot that will help you in your next relationship.

All the alpha male stuff is interesting and perhaps helpful, but if you're just trying to change to manipulate your wife back into a relationship that made her unhappy, it's not going to work.


----------



## northernlights

Convict said:


> Conrad.
> 
> We have not been to counseling. Some time ago she said she wanted to, and tho I wasn't enthusiastic I told her i didn't mind. But it never happened. When things got really bad I offered to try MC, but she was done trying.


See? His wife wanted to try counseling and he wasn't concerned enough to haul his butt into an office. She probably took his lack of urgency as further proof that he didn't care how she felt. Obviously, that was a bad move on the wife's part! 

uh-oh, crisis.


----------



## Pictureless

northernlights said:


> See? His wife wanted to try counseling and he wasn't concerned enough to haul his butt into an office. She probably took his lack of urgency as further proof that he didn't care how she felt. Obviously, that was a bad move on the wife's part!
> 
> uh-oh, crisis.


In general terms there are common behavior patterns, but all situations are different. 

In our case she wanted R and MC during our S. It turned out it was a stall tactic.


----------



## IronWine29

northernlights said:


> No, I don't think it's that. Look at all the posts from men on here... all the men who had NO IDEA their wives were unhappy. And when the wives finally give up and walk out, what do they come here and ask?
> 
> How can I get her back? How can I get her to continue to meet _my_ needs? Not, How did I miss this? What did I do wrong? What's her perspective on all this?


I think you're being a little uncharitable. A lot of the guys also figure out that they were putting up with a lot of abuse from their wives and that they would be better off letting them pursue their happiness elsewhere.


----------



## Convict

I think all of these posts are important and incisive.

But I do agree, even though there may be patterns out there, all situations are at the end different in their specifics.

It does seem true that we men felt that things were fine all along until the wives dropped the bomb on us and told us they were unhappy. 

What is different though, and I think most men would relate to this, is that when men consciously found out they had shortcomings, they really sincerely tried to change and improve the marriage. But when the wives consciously knew that they were not making the required effort and they consciously knew they were not meeting their husbands half way, they didn't seem to care so much and they acted as if there was nothing they can do. 

Another point is that men are different than women, obviously, in the sense that they can really feel content and brush away unhappiness as they look at the glass half full rather than half empty, thus they don't normally suddenly wake and tell their wives they are unhappy or miserable. Women on the other hand seem to feel more pain and more unhappiness and look at the glass half empty or even fully empty and thus are more prone to waking up one day and conveying how unhappy they are and either calling it quits or hoping the man would change.

IronWine said a very important word that I think wasn't mentioned before. ABUSE. Abuse from the wife to the husband. I myself felt that way. I tried to be the nice guy, tried to spoil my wife, tried to communicate more, tried to be more generous, more pleasing, but often felt abused by her. When I told her she is consciously abusing me, she seemed shocked, but she knew she was doing that to me, and I, like most men, cannot be in a place where we get abused. We would never accept that from anyone, so why should we accept it from our wives.

As for counseling, all I know is that it's hard to judge ones reaction when the matter is brought up. Yes, at first I was hesitant. But I did want and was fully ready to communicate with my wife and hear everything she had to say and work on it. I didn't feel that I needed a third party to convey something between me and my wife. And when I did actually get round to trying MC, my wife was the one who had given up all hope and love and was no longer committed to the marriage. She even gave up on communicating, so I don't think any MC would really have made a difference.


----------



## Conrad

northernlights said:


> But I doubt that's what most of their wives would say. My H could easily come here and play dumb too.


Wow


----------



## Conrad

Convict said:


> She grew up as a teen through her parents divorce. I know that took a toll on her and she said before that it made her hate her dad and men, till she met me, but after ten years she realized she can go her own way and become independent and doesn't need me or any man.


Sounds angry

And, in the end, she found out you were also a man.

So, that exception she made for you (hating all men, but you) came with an expiration date.


----------



## Convict

Conrad. I would hate to look at my marriage as a time bound event that expires. But I guess she did convince herself after all that I am just another man like her father. That shouldn't be my fault, and I committed no crime here. Despite my many imperfections, I can't say I failed in that category.

There is another issue I didn't mention. And I don't know if this will apply to anyone else. But I feel that my wife's sense of empowerment had led her to believe that she can indeed be independent and doesn't need me. She got a good job, free housing that became our home, she has a career of her own, and maybe now she sees that her life can go on just fine without me. I always supported her in her career goals and stood by her when she needed support. But deep down I feared that we would get to the point where she felt she was more important than I was (I have a great job and career and did just fine for the both of us). I always tried to look at us as equal partners, I never tried to claim that I was the man and she was the woman and that I was the boss. Never. It was always a partnership. She thought that I was dominating her, and then when she saw me trying harder to make her happy, she became the dominant party and neglected looking at me as an equal partner.


----------



## Convict

It's really funny, and I always tried to point this out to my wife. All the things that she actually criticized me for and complained about, she ended up doing to me at a latter stage. If I had my shortcomings, I had them and exercised them for the most part without knowing I was hurting her. But when she had the very same shortcomings a few years later, she knew very well what she was doing and was consciously aware of her behavior.


----------



## Conrad

Abuse victims - including neglect etc. often find themselves in the vise of their own anger. It's damned near impossible to surmount this without years of therapy and vigilant self-regulation.

One of the main tenets of the "nice guy" syndrome is to position yourself as "not like other men". This is a mistake in tactics. You are male by nature and it eventually shows through.

I'm willing to wager your wife was always somewhat impatient.

Subconsciously she was likely have responded better to leadership.




Convict said:


> Conrad. I would hate to look at my marriage as a time bound event that expires. But I guess she did convince herself after all that I am just another man like her father. That shouldn't be my fault, and I committed no crime here. Despite my many imperfections, I can't say I failed in that category.
> 
> There is another issue I didn't mention. And I don't know if this will apply to anyone else. But I feel that my wife's sense of empowerment had led her to believe that she can indeed be independent and doesn't need me. She got a good job, free housing that became our home, she has a career of her own, and maybe now she sees that her life can go on just fine without me. I always supported her in her career goals and stood by her when she needed support. But deep down I feared that we would get to the point where she felt she was more important than I was (I have a great job and career and did just fine for the both of us). I always tried to look at us as equal partners, I never tried to claim that I was the man and she was the woman and that I was the boss. Never. It was always a partnership. She thought that I was dominating her, and then when she saw me trying harder to make her happy, she became the dominant party and neglected looking at me as an equal partner.


----------



## Pictureless

> ABUSE. Abuse from the wife to the husband. I myself felt that way. I tried to be the nice guy, tried to spoil my wife, tried to communicate more, tried to be more generous, more pleasing, but often felt abused by her. When I told her she is consciously abusing me, she seemed shocked, but she knew she was doing that to me, and I, like most men, cannot be in a place where we get abused. We would never accept that from anyone, so why should we accept it from our wives.


I had lunch with a friend today. He said that word to me about my situation, abuse. That's what it was. For whatever reason, she must believe that's how wives are supposed to act towards their husbands. 

Too many people on my side to say I'm wrong: the books, classes, pastor, MC, therapists, family, friends, coworkers, etc. 
In the end, after all stall tactics, delays, and distractions, it finally came down to: why are you behaving this way? Her answer: none, just ignore and continue. But this time I said enough fixing me, you fix you or I'm not coming back. The next day it was over.

The light does come on. Love is blinding. So is gas when you don't wear a mask. It all makes sense now. It takes two to fix a relationship that is struggling. That is, two who want it.

When she says she doesn't love you anymore, we automatically assume we've done something wrong. Helpful people suggest she fell out of love with you because you've done something to make yourself less attractive or desirable.

Sometimes it's just old fashioned greed and selfishness. They never really loved you in the first place.


----------



## Conrad

Pictureless said:


> I had lunch with a friend today. He said that word to me about my situation, abuse. That's what it was. For whatever reason, she must believe that's how wives are supposed to act towards their husbands.


What do you think are the purposes of personal boundaries?

Where did the need for them arise?

I guarantee you, she knew it was wrong.

But, it was permitted, so she did it.


----------



## Convict

Pictureless. U bring up again important points about abuse. Not many people can understand that men can be subjected to cruelty and abuse from their wives. Everyone always seems to expect that it comes the other way around. 

Like u, I was subjected to lots of it. And it happened at the time when I was trying my hardest to improve and save the marriage. The fact that the one person u love and cherish is the one dishing out the abuse makes it so intolerable. U have every right to feel betrayed, as I was. 

While I do accept that I had imperfections, u r also right to believe that she just ain't worth it. 

I have convinced myself that at the very end of the day the impending divorce is not of my own doing. I am not however at the stage of saying that it's all her fault and that her greed and selfishness lead us to where we are. I am tempted to feel that way, but if I at least did love her, I would like to end our marriage and forgive her for everything, she was at one point my loving wife, and we have two beautiful kids to raise.


----------



## Convict

Conrad. When u say my wife probably would have responded to leadership, the first thought that comes to mind is that I should have been more of a bastard and commander, not a partner and husband.

Lots of people told me I was too much of a nice guy. That I should have been more of an ******* when need be. They said that's the only way your wife will feel she always needs you. That however was never my state of my mind. I never believed in playing games. I wanted to be the nice guy that I really am. Or thought I was. I did not want to lead her. All I wanted was an equal partner. Fully equal. Maybe subconsciously she was more "stuck" in the marriage when I did take charge, but that wasn't how I wanted it to be. I never wanted her to feel stuck. I wanted her to feel invested, and that's why I tried being the nice guy, or I thought I was. And that's why too often I absorbed her abuse. Maybe in that category I should have been a bastard, but I absorbed it cos I loved her, cos maybe I thought she had a right to be angry, and cos maybe I thought I should try everything to save a marriage. But like the others have said, a husband can't go on accepting abuse eternally. I think for most men that's when they realize they have to part ways with their wives, no matter how painful it is.


----------



## Conrad

If we permit abuse, our partner loses respect for us with each transaction. And, the problems only grown. The more we permit, the more we get.

Quite often males get in their own way. Standing up for yourself doesn't have to include hostility. In fact, many times, it's much more effective to be cool, firm, and dispassionate.


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## northernlights

Convict said:


> What is different though, and I think most men would relate to this, is that when men consciously found out they had shortcomings, they really sincerely tried to change and improve the marriage. But when the wives consciously knew that they were not making the required effort and they consciously knew they were not meeting their husbands half way, they didn't seem to care so much and they acted as if there was nothing they can do.
> 
> Another point is that men are different than women, obviously, in the sense that they can really feel content and brush away unhappiness as they look at the glass half full rather than half empty, thus they don't normally suddenly wake and tell their wives they are unhappy or miserable. Women on the other hand seem to feel more pain and more unhappiness and look at the glass half empty or even fully empty and thus are more prone to waking up one day and conveying how unhappy they are and either calling it quits or hoping the man would change.
> 
> .


I think both of these are unfair generalizations that paint men as victims of fickle, silly women.


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## Convict

Northernlights.

Please do not take what I said in any way as absolving men from responsibility.

I can only speak for myself of course. 

The fact is that I really did not know at the time that my wife seemed to be unhappy. Maybe she was sad at times, but I never knew then that I was terribly underperforming in our marriage. And she never told me back then flat out that that was the case. It's always easier in hindsight to realize that there was indeed a slope that started taking our marriage downhill, but at the time most men cant really see it. But trust me, when we know that there are serious issues, and we are told there are major problems, we snap into action to try and please the wife, seek forgiveness, and do all in our power to cherish our lovely wives. Again, it does not absolve us of responsibility, but most of the posts in this thread confirm that is how it all happened. My point was that when my wife now saw me trying so hard and doing what she actually verbalized and requested and desired, she didn't grab it tho it was all now in front of her. The thing is, we really can't feel what goes on in woman's mind. But when we know about it, we will never leave a stone unturned to be the husband that she expects. Again, that's just my two cents from my own experience. The sad thing is it seems it was all too late to restore her happiness and love.


----------



## northernlights

Convict said:


> Northernlights.
> 
> Please do not take what I said in any way as absolving men from responsibility.
> 
> I can only speak for myself of course.
> 
> The fact is that I really did not know at the time that my wife seemed to be unhappy. Maybe she was sad at times, but I never knew then that I was terribly underperforming in our marriage. And she never told me back then flat out that that was the case. It's always easier in hindsight to realize that there was indeed a slope that started taking our marriage downhill, but at the time most men cant really see it. But trust me, when we know that there are serious issues, and we are told there are major problems, we snap into action to try and please the wife, seek forgiveness, and do all in our power to cherish our lovely wives. Again, it does not absolve us of responsibility, but most of the posts in this thread confirm that is how it all happened. My point was that when my wife now saw me trying so hard and doing what she actually verbalized and requested and desired, she didn't grab it tho it was all now in front of her. The thing is, we really can't feel what goes on in woman's mind. But when we know about it, we will never leave a stone unturned to be the husband that she expects. Again, that's just my two cents from my own experience. The sad thing is it seems it was all too late to restore her happiness and love.




Convict, I don't doubt that you tried your hardest when you truly understood that your wife was gone, and I'm sorry she didn't respond to that. I know how awful it feels to try so hard and watch your spouse just not care.

My original point was that you don't seem to know what got her to the point that she didn't want to work any more. She might not be willing to talk to you about it, but if she is, I think you could learn a lot about your marriage, and hopefully get perspective that could help you in your other relationships or life in general.


----------



## Conrad

northernlights said:


> I think both of these are unfair generalizations that paint men as victims of fickle, silly women.


Only if they choose the victim chair.


----------



## northernlights

Conrad said:


> Only if they choose the victim chair.


My problem was with the sexist characterization of women. Please tell me you see it too.


----------



## Conrad

northernlights said:


> My problem was with the sexist characterization of women. Please tell me you see it too.


I think everyone has the potential to be flaky.

And, as I read through the posts here of women doing the exact opposite of the path you're choosing for yourself, I think there's a great deal of flakiness involved where critical thinking and emotional intelligence would serve them and their children well.

I sense you are personalizing this story a bit.


----------



## Pictureless

Conrad said:


> What do you think are the purposes of personal boundaries?
> 
> Where did the need for them arise?
> 
> I guarantee you, she knew it was wrong.
> 
> But, it was permitted, so she did it.


It's like I said the other day Conrad, I agree with a lot of the things you say. I know my mistakes, I owned them, apologized to her for them, the slate was supposedly clean, and I put the work in. She didn't.

Another mistake I made was allowing her to become reliant upon my forgiveness. Looking back, it was always given, never asked for. Yup, she knew it was wrong. And I would always forgive her. 

There were other issues too. Her POS family, her kid's mental issues, her baggage from two previous marriage, etc. I think all of that, plus our fighting, separation, and her toxic friends added up to curtains for me. But who knows, right? Could be POSOM as well.

It's like I told her after D-day#1: we have too much going against us. But I did put my foot down the night before D-day#2. She bailed the next day. 

I remember talking to her about a relationship she had after her second marriage but before me. Apparently he relocated to a new job which ended the relationship. Later she flew a great distance to be with him for a few weeks. Who watched her kids? XH#2. I was like wow, shocking considering she would often say she wished he was dead. I then asked, was it worth it? Flying all that way just for sex with someone who you must have known wasn't going to come back home with you. She said it was just an adventure. _I guess marriage is just an adventure to her too._

Writing this doesn't make me sad or angry. I'm honestly getting tired about talking about this which I suppose could be a good sign. *I know the truth. I am not the things she says I am*, and I suspect she said those things to ease her guilty conscience. Guilty about what? It's either for using me or replacing me with POSOM.

My mind ***bleep**** from her is that we attended church together for the last six months. Then D-day#2, and then she goes NC and files for the divorce. A Christian wife doesn't do that, or say I love you at 8 AM, and it's over at 6 PM.

And that's my answer right there. I was unequally yoked with a non-believer. 

That's what I meant when I refer to the idolatry of self. She didn't listen to anybody but herself. It's hard to do when everybody else is wrong and you are infallible.


----------



## northernlights

Conrad said:


> I think everyone has the potential to be flaky.
> 
> And, as I read through the posts here of women doing the exact opposite of the path you're choosing for yourself, I think there's a great deal of flakiness involved where critical thinking and emotional intelligence would serve them and their children well.


Ugh, no! You're buying into the story these guys are telling every time. They're always the heroes with silly, frivolous wives. Please. I'll be the wives' sides of the stories would be pretty eye-opening.


----------



## Conrad

northernlights said:


> Ugh, no! You're buying into the story these guys are telling every time. They're always the heroes with silly, frivolous wives. Please. I'll be the wives' sides of the stories would be pretty eye-opening.


There's no way we can assess the authenticity of what someone writes here - except you can be pretty certain someone with a 5000 post thread (but not always!) is moving through the process and attempting to learn about themselves.

Hollywood produces cultural slop that sets wildly unrealistic expectations for romance and relationships. Yet, when you see the case of Aaron Hernandez of the New England Patriots (a tight end on trial for murder) and all the women - literally - throwing themselves at him and professing their desire for his attention, it's obvious that things swim below the surface of someone telling another "what happened" in a relationship. Primal forces... like attraction, respect, and oftentimes, fear.

Alerting people to the seductive power of victimhood and the absolute deathgrip our subconscious mind has on our perceptions (until we awaken) is worthy work. So, we extend the benefit of the doubt to people who come for help.

I really don't know another way to proceed.

Remember, I've lived through one of these crucibles of pain and have emerged.

And, we don't emerge by denying our role in the mess.

We embrace our own pos tendencies, forgive ourselves and then look at the situation anew.

Yet, the searing pain of infidelity and the loss of a man's children is a thunderbolt type of experience. So, we do what we can.

I believe if you read my exchanges with people like Angstire and Pictureless (to name two), you'll see numerous exchanges where men are challenged - literally - to take the focus off their partner's wrongs and look within.

I did the same thing with you.


----------



## northernlights

Conrad said:


> I believe if you read my exchanges with people like Angstire and Pictureless (to name two), you'll see numerous exchanges where men are challenged - literally - to take the focus off their partner's wrongs and look within.
> 
> I did the same thing with you.


There's a cultural bias against women that lurks just below the surface here. Women are flaky, silly, emotional. We lack critical thinking skills. Sometimes one can't see ones own bias, but I see it here all the time. Not necessarily from you, you're generally too short with words to convey any bias. 

It's hard to convince a majority group that they're being discriminatory. But it's here, and it's hurting these men just as much as it's hurting women. That's why I'll keep pointing it out when I see it.


----------



## Conrad

northernlights said:


> There's a cultural bias against women that lurks just below the surface here. Women are flaky, silly, emotional. We lack critical thinking skills. Sometimes one can't see ones own bias, but I see it here all the time. Not necessarily from you, you're generally too short with words to convey any bias.
> 
> It's hard to convince a majority group that they're being discriminatory. But it's here, and it's hurting these men just as much as it's hurting women. That's why I'll keep pointing it out when I see it.


I think this will help:

Men's and women's brains - YouTube


----------



## LongWalk

Northernlights,

TAM is not gender neutral. It is good that you speak up because too often women just shrug their shoulders and refuse to discuss their insights.

There are plenty of men who come on to TAM and start blaming themselves for POS behavior that they see in retrospect. Immediately, guys, who empathize with enormous pain that the OP is going through, will point out that the WW or WAW is the person who is betraying the marriage. That blank check accusation is just a life line to help the OP survive in the short term.

Any person who made a lot of mistakes, e.g., they drank too much, allowed their family to abuse their wife, were unemployed, etc. knows these things dragged their marriage down. But were these failings the only events in the relationship? Some times deeper digging is necessary.

If someone keeps posting, and others contribute questions, a lot can be learned.


----------



## northernlights

When you ask a man what he's thinking about, and he tells you, "Nothing dear," believe him.


----------



## northernlights

Thanks for that perspective on it Longwalk, that really helps.


----------



## Pictureless

LongWalk said:


> If someone keeps posting, and others contribute questions, a lot can be learned.


Just don't mention the parties involved or discuss what happened or you will be accused of keeping the focus on her.

It's like making out a police report but not describing the suspect. That would be putting the robbery on you because you are focusing on what they did to you :scratchhead:


----------



## AFPhoenix

lol Pictureless.

I've already received a couple of PMs after they looked at my POSOM's FB page.


----------



## Convict

I realize there are a multitude of different ways to look back and analyse why the marriage went downhill.

There are of course two extremes....one is that the H feels its all his fault...the other is the H feels his W is selfish and unworthy and unwilling to fix the M. 

I have personally looked at my soon to end marriage as somewhat in between. When hearing and learning that my wife expected more and was unhappy and felt neglected, I decided that its really not so hard to try and try and change and change and work and work to make her happier. I put my heart in it, and it really didnt cost me that much at the end of the day. Therefore I happily and gladly and immediately accepted to change and make the effort. Even though I did feel somewhat "betrayed" by the fact that throughout the years it seemed she never really "appreciated" what I did and what we had. I think going into overdrive to make the W happier and thus save the M is a commendable thing, and we should applaud all the men out there that do make that effort.

The final downfall starts, in my opinion, when the W doesnt try and move forward and instead is stuck in the past (my case to be specific). Like this thread showed, a H cant go on forever living in overdrive if the W doesnt appreciate it or see it or feel it or want to heal the past through the efforts the H is exerting. Thats where I am now, and it just is not sustainable. 

I know most men, at least myself, always ask the question: just why is my wife not responding to my efforts after all if these efforts are sincere and voluntary?


----------



## Conrad

Convict,

Out of curiosity, do you think people love the other person more if they do what they're told?


----------



## Convict

Conrad. I am starting to feel u might just be a tad bit too harsh with your line of questioning.

From what I infer from your prognosis, a man in my position will always be set for failure.

My wife won't like it when I am not meeting her expectations. And my wife won't like it that I am trying to meet her expectations. It would be an impossible situation.

I thought we were always told to listen to our wives. To hear them. To understand them. I for one don't regret doing that.

And I don't regret admitting that I am imperfect. And when I have made them, I don't regret admitting that made mistakes. I don't think that's weakness, I see it as strength. When I'm wrong at my office, I have no probs admitting that to my superiors and to my subordinates. So why should I be different at home.

But for my own curiosity, my question is: what would u have done if u were in my shoes? How would u have acted? And of course the goal would be to try and save a marriage, not to accept it was over when the first cracks appeared.


----------



## Conrad

Convict said:


> Conrad. I am starting to feel u might just be a tad bit too harsh with your line of questioning.
> 
> From what I infer from your prognosis, a man in my position will always be set for failure.
> 
> My wife won't like it when I am not meeting her expectations. And my wife won't like it that I am trying to meet her expectations. It would be an impossible situation.
> 
> I thought we were always told to listen to our wives. To hear them. To understand them. I for one don't regret doing that.
> 
> And I don't regret admitting that I am imperfect. And when I have made them, I don't regret admitting that made mistakes. I don't think that's weakness, I see it as strength. When I'm wrong at my office, I have no probs admitting that to my superiors and to my subordinates. So why should I be different at home.
> 
> But for my own curiosity, my question is: what would u have done if u were in my shoes? How would u have acted? And of course the goal would be to try and save a marriage, not to accept it was over when the first cracks appeared.


So, you believe your wife would be happier if you submitted to her, with no reciprocity?

The cumulative experience of the men in this forum that have sucked it up and said, "yes ma'am", "whatever you want dear" would indicate just the reverse.


----------



## Convict

Conrad. Of course I would and Did expect reciprocity. When I felt my efforts and investments were not getting me anything, I realized she just ain't worth saving. It took me time but I reached that conclusion. 

But u never answered my question. What would u have done if u were in my shoes? That is, what would have u done to arrive at a different situation than the one I face now?


----------



## Pictureless

Convict said:


> Conrad. I am starting to feel u might just be a tad bit too harsh with your line of questioning.
> 
> From what I infer from your prognosis, a man in my position will always be set for failure.
> 
> My wife won't like it when I am not meeting her expectations. And my wife won't like it that I am trying to meet her expectations. It would be an impossible situation.
> 
> I thought we were always told to listen to our wives. To hear them. To understand them. I for one don't regret doing that.
> 
> And I don't regret admitting that I am imperfect. And when I have made them, I don't regret admitting that made mistakes. I don't think that's weakness, I see it as strength. When I'm wrong at my office, I have no probs admitting that to my superiors and to my subordinates. So why should I be different at home.
> 
> But for my own curiosity, my question is: what would u have done if u were in my shoes? How would u have acted? And of course the goal would be to try and save a marriage, not to accept it was over when the first cracks appeared.


Convict,

Some well intentioned people aren't always right. You have to do what works for you. We are all flawed and make mistakes. People who love you overlook your flaws and accept you just as your are.

Love isn't a game. Partners should be able to communicate their needs and wants openly, honestly, and freely. Saying "I'm not okay with that" won't help when one partner has already checked out.

There's a lot of head shrinking babble here, and there's a lot of anecdotal tales based upon real life experiences. You will notice patterns of behavior that damage relationships: infidelity, physical abuse, substance abuse, mental disorders, and incompatibility. Then there's plain old fashioned greed and selfishness.

You were there and you know what happened. Discern for yourself what is best for you now. Don't let the trendy coping mechanisms promoted here set you off wondering what's wrong with you. It takes two to make a relationship work, and it takes two to save it.

Why one fell out of love is beyond the other's control. It just happens. We cannot make people fall in love with us. If we could my wife would be Demi Moore. We cannot make people stay in love with us. If we could the divorce rate would be 0%.


----------



## Convict

Pictureless. As always, thank you for the insight, advice and support.
I agree with u totally that is does take two to make, nurture and save a marriage. That cannot happen by one party alone.

I have reached that conclusion and am fine with it. Looking back more than necessary cannot and will never reverse the situation I am in.

I even just had a stray thought in my mind to make me feel better. I wondered right now what would it really take to make my marriage succeed again. And I told myself that would require my wife to love me unconditionally, to prove to me once again that I could trust her fully. And to display every single day that she is committed and loyal to our marriage and to our family as much as I want to be.

And then I told myself, well, that will all obviously never happen. So I should get over with it and be done and gone. And that is where I am heading. And I do accordingly feel more at ease and more at peace.

If I could control and program my wife that way, than I could do it to anyone else, and then Demi Moore would be MY wife !


----------



## Conrad

If our instincts were correct, how in the world do we end up here?


----------



## Conrad

Convict said:


> Conrad. Of course I would and Did expect reciprocity. When I felt my efforts and investments were not getting me anything, I realized she just ain't worth saving. It took me time but I reached that conclusion.
> 
> But u never answered my question. What would u have done if u were in my shoes? That is, what would have u done to arrive at a different situation than the one I face now?


I would have changed the dynamic in the relationship and quit tolerating things I was not ok with.


----------



## Pictureless

Convict said:


> If I could control and program my wife that way, than I could do it to anyone else, and then Demi Moore would be MY wife !


Oh great, now you want my wife Demi? OK, I'll make Emily Blunt love me then.

All kidding aside, what we are going through sucks but we will make it.

I bet you spend a lot of time wondering how and why she could fall _out of love _with you. Me too. I bet you didn't spend a lot of time wondering how and why she _fell in love _with you. When it happened, you were happy and accepted it. I know I was.

Well, she doesn't love me now. She told me so. I have to accept it. So that means letting go emotionally and moving on. It takes time. For some longer than others. 

Again, don't blame yourself for all of it; there's some things you cannot control. That is not denial, that is a fact. Work on your stuff as you heal and when you're ready start anew.

As long as you've *honestly* owned your piece of crap behaviors and have learned from what happened, then don't beat yourself up anymore than necessary. You are only responsible for _your share_ of the marital problems.


----------



## Convict

Pictureless. Seems we have a very similar wavelength. 

Totally hear what u said about having to accept it when the wife says she stopped loving u. Couldn't agree more when u said u have to let go. And yes, it will take time for all of us, how long is always upto each one of us I guess.

Also fully agree about the blame issue. I personally only accept the blame I should be held responsible for, not more, and not less. The rest is on her shoulder. And that's the way I look at it, and again feel at peace with.

I think having this inner peace is what really counts in the end. And yes while it's hard to reconcile how she fell out of love with me with what we once had, at the end of the day it doesn't really matter so much cos we r where we are.

Moving on is what one must do, and we know it's hard. But we still need to get moving.

As for me, I'm still not that ready for another woman, so Demi is all yours.


----------



## ReGroup

Convict said:


> Pictureless. Seems we have a very similar wavelength.
> 
> Totally hear what u said about having to accept it when the wife says she stopped loving u. Couldn't agree more when u said u have to let go. And yes, it will take time for all of us, how long is always upto each one of us I guess.
> 
> Also fully agree about the blame issue. I personally only accept the blame I should be held responsible for, not more, and not less. The rest is on her shoulder. And that's the way I look at it, and again feel at peace with.
> 
> I think having this inner peace is what really counts in the end. And yes while it's hard to reconcile how she fell out of love with me with what we once had, at the end of the day it doesn't really matter so much cos we r where we are.
> 
> Moving on is what one must do, and we know it's hard. But we still need to get moving.
> 
> As for me, I'm still not that ready for another woman, so Demi is all yours.


Take the Red Pill as my brother Ceegee would tell me and never look back.

Do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pictureless

ReGroup said:


> Take the Red Pill as my brother Ceegee would tell me and never look back.
> 
> Do it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Red pill? I don't know what that means. can you tell me.


----------



## cbnero

Pictureless said:


> ReGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> Take the Red Pill as my brother Ceegee would tell me and never look back.
> 
> Do it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Red pill? I don't know what that means. can you tell me.
Click to expand...

its a reference to Alice in Wonderland / the Matrix. It means you should accept there is a completely different life and infinite possibilities out there that you are not even considering. You have a choice, embrace your fears and uncertain future. Or cling to the life you knew and ignore that it is all a lie. 

I will never argue that I did terrible things that hurt my wife over the years. Everyone does to one degree or another. 

But I didn't leave her. I didn't not feel remorse. I didn't love anyone else. 

Own your own faults. Better yourself. And then head on down the rabbit hole.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Pictureless

cbnero said:


> I will never argue that I did terrible things that hurt my wife over the years. Everyone does to one degree or another.
> 
> But I didn't leave her. I didn't not feel remorse. I didn't love anyone else.
> 
> Own your own faults. Better yourself. And then head on down the rabbit hole.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Right on!


----------



## ReGroup

cbnero said:


> its a reference to Alice in Wonderland / the Matrix. It means you should accept there is a completely different life and infinite possibilities out there that you are not even considering. You have a choice, embrace your fears and uncertain future. Or cling to the life you knew and ignore that it is all a lie.
> 
> I will never argue that I did terrible things that hurt my wife over the years. Everyone does to one degree or another.
> 
> But I didn't leave her. I didn't not feel remorse. I didn't love anyone else.
> 
> Own your own faults. Better yourself. And then head on down the rabbit hole.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


In addition ...

We have have been programmed to think women want a certain type of Man.

Don't listen to what they say watch what they do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

cbnero said:


> its a reference to Alice in Wonderland / the Matrix. It means you should accept there is a completely different life and infinite possibilities out there that you are not even considering. You have a choice, embrace your fears and uncertain future. Or cling to the life you knew and ignore that it is all a lie.
> 
> I will never argue that I did terrible things that hurt my wife over the years. Everyone does to one degree or another.
> 
> But I didn't leave her. I didn't not feel remorse. I didn't love anyone else.
> 
> Own your own faults. Better yourself. And then head on down the rabbit hole.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


cb,

Any idea what might persuade the "next" woman to overlook those sorts of "terrible things" and realize she's attracted to you - and doesn't wish to leave?


----------



## cbnero

Conrad said:


> cb,
> 
> Any idea what might persuade the "next" woman to overlook those sorts of "terrible things" and realize she's attracted to you - and doesn't wish to leave?


Yes absolutely. A marriage doesn't mean giving up myself, she married me for who I was. Why in the world did I ever stop being me?

Next time around I will lead by example. If she doesn't initiate communication, I will. If she glances over it and wants to avoid conflict, I will lead by making sure any issues are brought up and not bottled up. 

Going to 50k and observing myself and my behaviors, along with the next potential mate, will pretty much make it obvious if the person is who I am looking for. 

Looking back on my stbx, there were issues from day 1 that I chose to ignore. And issues about me she chose to ignore too I'm sure. The character flaw comes into play when she leaves vs dealing with them.

Next time around I will have no problem saying NOPE- SORRY and this isn't working for me and keep looking for a better fit. 
NO MORE MR NICE GUY


----------



## oviid

cbnero said:


> Yes absolutely. A marriage doesn't mean giving up myself, she married me for who I was. Why in the world did I ever stop being me?
> 
> Next time around I will lead by example. If she doesn't initiate communication, I will. If she glances over it and wants to avoid conflict, I will lead by making sure any issues are brought up and not bottled up.
> 
> Going to 50k and observing myself and my behaviors, along with the next potential mate, will pretty much make it obvious if the person is who I am looking for.
> 
> Looking back on my stbx, there were issues from day 1 that I chose to ignore. And issues about me she chose to ignore too I'm sure. The character flaw comes into play when she leaves vs dealing with them.
> 
> Next time around I will have no problem saying NOPE- SORRY and this isn't working for me and keep looking for a better fit.
> NO MORE MR NICE GUY


I can so relate to all of this.


----------



## Conrad

cbnero said:


> Yes absolutely. A marriage doesn't mean giving up myself, she married me for who I was. Why in the world did I ever stop being me?
> 
> Next time around I will lead by example. If she doesn't initiate communication, I will. If she glances over it and wants to avoid conflict, I will lead by making sure any issues are brought up and not bottled up.
> 
> Going to 50k and observing myself and my behaviors, along with the next potential mate, will pretty much make it obvious if the person is who I am looking for.
> 
> Looking back on my stbx, there were issues from day 1 that I chose to ignore. And issues about me she chose to ignore too I'm sure. The character flaw comes into play when she leaves vs dealing with them.
> 
> Next time around I will have no problem saying NOPE- SORRY and this isn't working for me and keep looking for a better fit.
> NO MORE MR NICE GUY


In the movie "Blue Valentine", Michelle Williams asks Ryan Gosling directly, "Isn't there something you wish to do!!!!?"

Always have a goal.. .completely independent from her.

Gosling answered the question thusly, "I just love being your husband and a father to your little girl" (the child of the alpha dog she was with prior to him)

He got zero points for attractiveness.

Women often say they want their man to be a good father. What they don't want is for a man to surrender his masculinity and kiss her and the kids asses.

It will be a huge turn off.

A few years into that sort of coasting, a guy will hear about past resentments and the mistake he made as she walks out the door... and insist "it could have been fixed"

Just as life is a daily choice to be happy.

It's also a daily choice to live your life or to coast and make excuses.

Never confuse the two.


----------



## cbnero

Conrad said:


> A few years into that sort of coasting, a guy will hear about past resentments and the mistake he made as she walks out the door... and insist "it could have been fixed"
> 
> Just as life is a daily choice to be happy.
> 
> It's also a daily choice to live your life or to coast and make excuses.
> 
> Never confuse the two.


Happiness, broken, and fixed are all relative terms.

A relationship is in a constant state of flux. Commitment is the only glue holding it together each day. You can't control anyone else's actions but your own. 

To say a relationship could be "fixed" isnt accurate. Rather it can and should be said that each person can and should constantly fix themselves, every single day. 

The commitment isn't to be perfect. Impossible. The commitment is to fix yourself to stay married and to support the other person to do the same. 

For me, her leaving was a declaration of surrender to everything immoral in this life. I can't handle my issues so I'm going to run away from them.
Coward.

This is the character flaw.

It isn't your job to fix them, only to support them fixing themselves. That includes tough love like exposure or divorce. 

If they still don't come back, that's entirely on them. I am proud of the changes I have made for myself. I do not need her or anyone to be happy. 

Like Jon Taffer on Bar Rescue says - embrace solutions, not excuses. 

Character flaws are like giant billboards to me now. My own, and those of others. 

Fix yourself. Just let them go.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Conrad

cbnero said:


> Happiness, broken, and fixed are all relative terms.
> 
> A relationship is in a constant state of flux. Commitment is the only glue holding it together each day. You can't control anyone else's actions but your own.
> 
> To say a relationship could be "fixed" isnt accurate. Rather it can and should be said that each person can and should constantly fix themselves, every single day.
> 
> The commitment isn't to be perfect. Impossible. The commitment is to fix yourself to stay married and to support the other person to do the same.
> 
> For me, her leaving was a declaration of surrender to everything immoral in this life. I can't handle my issues so I'm going to run away from them.
> Coward.
> 
> This is the character flaw.
> 
> It isn't your job to fix them, only to support them fixing themselves. That includes tough love like exposure or divorce.
> 
> If they still don't come back, that's entirely on them. I am proud of the changes I have made for myself. I do not need her or anyone to be happy.
> 
> Like Jon Taffer on Bar Rescue says - embrace solutions, not excuses.
> 
> Character flaws are like giant billboards to me now. My own, and those of others.
> 
> Fix yourself. Just let them go.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


And never forget your duty to bring your "A" game, every single day. It's a duty to yourself.


----------



## LongWalk

To echo Conrad, I recall there is a thread here in which a BH is rejected by his WW. He cannot get over their impending split because he is devoted to her daughter whom she bore with another man. For this rejected BH I could see no hope. The WW was most definitely harming her daughter by depriving her of the man she considered her father.

Clearly the BH desire to be a stepdad was not attractive.


----------



## cbnero

LongWalk said:


> To echo Conrad, I recall there is a thread here in which a BH is rejected by his WW. He cannot get over their impending split because he is devoted to her daughter whom she bore with another man. For this rejected BH I could see no hope. The WW was most definitely harming her daughter by depriving her of the man she considered her father.
> 
> Clearly the BH desire to be a stepdad was not attractive.


Some would find that to be an attractive trait. Just not those with a fatal character flaw - selfishness.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Conrad

cbnero said:


> Some would find that to be an attractive trait. Just not those with a fatal character flaw - selfishness.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Reject these observations at your peril.


----------



## cbnero

Conrad said:


> cbnero said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some would find that to be an attractive trait. Just not those with a fatal character flaw - selfishness.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
> 
> 
> 
> Reject these observations at your peril.
Click to expand...

He could have kept his manhood and identity AND been a good father is all I mean.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## LongWalk

To clarify, the WW did not want him. He kept talking about losing the daughter. Sorry, the marriage should have been to the mother to make her a wife and not make himself into step-father.


----------



## northernlights

I've asked you a few times if you know specifically what actions have caused your wife to react the way she has (not saying her reaction is the correct one, it most definitely is not. But women, logical creatures that we are, make our judgements based on what you guys do).

Let me give you an example: I started to question my marriage after a series of incidences in which my H proved that he wasn't interested in taking care of me or the children (he seems to not care if we live or die, to be frank). I've been to the ER twice, and both times I had to twist his arm to take me (serious tonsillitis and CO exposure while pregnant). He refused to take our DD when she'd dislocated her elbow, and instead sat in the lobby. He went to dinner instead of getting my antibiotics when I was super sick with strep and either bronchitis or pneumonia. He repeatedly woke me up when I was already suffering from severe sleep deprivation. There are a dozen other things, but you get the gist.

If I were to move on from this, I'd need my H to do a few things. First, I'd need him to sincerely apologize. Not in a 3 second, dismissive apology. I'd have to believe he really got it and felt true remorse.

Then, I'd have to see his remorse in his actions.

Finally, I'd have to see evidence of change, and it would have to last for at least a year before I believed it.

Your wife has got to have a similar list. You need to find out what's on it, really understand why she feels this way about everything on it, commit to showing her that you really get it and really are sorry, and commit to living a life that shows her you won't do that to her again.


Yes, don't grovel and beg. But more than that, don't be the same weak person who let her down.

If you didn't do anything that awful, then you'll know she's got some serious issues of her own to work on, and that should help inform your approach too. But you really cannot be successful unless you understand and address what behaviors got you guys here.

Good luck. It's going to be hard, but so worth it.


----------



## Pictureless

These last several posts have been very helpful. The light is getting brighter. 

Yesterday I recalled several times over the years how I asked her not to discuss something with someone. She did. I got mad and told her how hurtful it was to not honor my request. She blamed me for her behavior, saying the request was unreasonable. Instead of dumping her, I ignored it or forgave her.

Little things like that which over the years must have made her lose respect for me. No wonder she doesn't love me; how can you love someone you don't respect?

And it goes that way for me about her. My c*ck was in her mouth an hour after I first met her. I fell in love with a woman with the morals of a hooker. At least a hooker tells you she's only in it for the money. A hooker doesn't pretend to love you, but they will drop you in a flash if they can find a richer john.

Tomorrow is our divorce hearing. I'll be legally unmarried in 91 days. Lots of ironies in this "relationship." 

Thank goodness for TAM. I'm leaning so much. Our relationship started and ended wrong. It was wrong to be together. Even I told her that after dday#1. But we sucked each other back in. But I believe I wiser. And more willing to learn. I have minimal baggage and this is not my pattern, unlike her. I owned my pos tendencies, she blame shifts. 

I'm out a few bucks. Big deal. I got N.U.T's. She is nuts. What's that I see? Oh ya, those are the goals and dreams I WANTED and put on hold for her and her kids. 

I'm not putting my life on hold again for nobody. And I'm not going to become an angry jerk because I got used, I'm going to live.


----------



## northernlights

Definitely get yourself into counseling too. Start by reading "7 Habits of Highly Effective People" while you wait for your first appointment. It'll help you start on the path to becoming a better person.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

I'm just going to say it, and then leave it be in this thread.

I blamed myself for my marriage failure in the beginning. Now, I am crushing it in life. Work, fatherhood, relationships (including a [email protected] girlfriend) are all products of that. 

My WAW is now getting her second divorce within two years. Is pregnant with another kid. The women who pulls a walk away from a guy who is teachable and willing to put in the work are BROKEN. Be glad you can get away from them! 

Life is 10 pct what happens to you and 90 pct how you respond to it.


----------



## Convict

I am also pleased to report that I am starting to feel better. I am just a few short weeks away from my impending divorce, have thought about a million things a million times, felt down and depressed and lost and lonely, been finding it difficult to sleep the last few days, but am finally starting to feel good about myself.

This is really a super thread. And a lot of great people have all shared their experiences, insight and advice. And everyone has thrown in their support for all those who need it.

For me, that is the greatest thing I am taking away from all this.

Many people here have afforded me an insight into how I should look at the state of my soon to end marriage, how i should see what the causes were, how i should apportion the blame and responsibility, and how I should move on should we part ways.

I have taken all of that and processed it, long and hard. I even re-read this whole thread from beginning to end to realize and see how situations progressed, how people here felt at first and then felt later, and I even read over and over again my own contributions to see how I felt then and how I feel now.

I am feeling better. And one great thing about this thread is that it allowed me lay it all out, without thinking in advance about what I want to say, and to say it freely and from the heart.

I can see a million possibilities about my new life and future. Some are bright, some are dark. The journey will be long and hard, no one should doubt that. I don't think anyone does in the same situation. I take comfort from all those who have shared their experiences and how they managed to succeed and thrive when they moved on. I am sure there is a bridge that has to be crossed between sadness now and eventual happiness tomorrow, but I think I am ready to cross that bridge, no matter how long it takes.

For me, I know the hardest part will be finding the path to stay connected with my two kids and remain fully invested in their lives as long as I breathe. That alone is my primary goal and foremost challenge. 

I believe everyone here who said that the future holds great opportunities after divorce. I truly do. I am beginning to see that and look forward to a new life that revolves around me this time.


----------



## cbnero

Good thinking. I have less than 3 weeks to go til D is final. I went NC havent spoke to her in past 100 days. And now I wouldnt ever take her back, it would have been a mistake to do so and one I probably would have made if she had asked a few months ago.

I agree with almost all the other posters - yes R is possible. But after they break that bad, why would you want them back? One life to live, NMMNG!

Live on your terms from now on and never give up who you are. Fix yourself every day.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Pictureless

Non-Negotiable Unalterable Terms. Nuts. Don't bust my nuts!


----------



## Betrayedone

Convict said:


> I am also pleased to report that I am starting to feel better. I am just a few short weeks away from my impending divorce, have thought about a million things a million times, felt down and depressed and lost and lonely, been finding it difficult to sleep the last few days, but am finally starting to feel good about myself.
> 
> This is really a super thread. And a lot of great people have all shared their experiences, insight and advice. And everyone has thrown in their support for all those who need it.
> 
> For me, that is the greatest thing I am taking away from all this.
> 
> Many people here have afforded me an insight into how I should look at the state of my soon to end marriage, how i should see what the causes were, how i should apportion the blame and responsibility, and how I should move on should we part ways.
> 
> I have taken all of that and processed it, long and hard. I even re-read this whole thread from beginning to end to realize and see how situations progressed, how people here felt at first and then felt later, and I even read over and over again my own contributions to see how I felt then and how I feel now.
> 
> I am feeling better. And one great thing about this thread is that it allowed me lay it all out, without thinking in advance about what I want to say, and to say it freely and from the heart.
> 
> I can see a million possibilities about my new life and future. Some are bright, some are dark. The journey will be long and hard, no one should doubt that. I don't think anyone does in the same situation. I take comfort from all those who have shared their experiences and how they managed to succeed and thrive when they moved on. I am sure there is a bridge that has to be crossed between sadness now and eventual happiness tomorrow, but I think I am ready to cross that bridge, no matter how long it takes.
> 
> For me, I know the hardest part will be finding the path to stay connected with my two kids and remain fully invested in their lives as long as I breathe. That alone is my primary goal and foremost challenge.
> 
> I believe everyone here who said that the future holds great opportunities after divorce. I truly do. I am beginning to see that and look forward to a new life that revolves around me this time.


It REALLY makes me happy when I see someone on this forum exit from the tunnel of darkness into the light. I'm still working on it..........I just hope that light in the distance isn't an oncoming freight train...........


----------



## Convict

So I was feeling better, but i obviously new there would be many many unhappy days. Today was not such a great one after all. I realized of course that I do better when I have zero contact with my stbxw. But today she called me. 

We live in different countries because of my work and schooling issues for the kids. We have been doing this for the last two years and visiting each other back and forth. When the separation and divorce issues came up, as it was as if we were already separated in all but name. And we are now just a few weeks away from the divorce.

So today she called me. She had heard me skyping with my kids the other day. I was just connecting with them and telling them how looking forward I was to spending our summer holidays this year, and asked them what they would love to do. Prior to our decision to divorce, the plan with my wife was for all of us to go on holiday together to the States.

Now that we r heading for D, I was thinking to myself that maybe I would go over, get my kids, and take them for a holiday somewhere just by myself, me and my kids. Then they could go later with my stbxw to the States and continue their own holidays with her. It would be hard to go more than place cos my summer time off is not that extended. 

So my wife calls me, and says that she does not mind if I join her and the kids, as was planned, to go on holiday this summer to the States. She said the kids would love that, and it could be fine and we could all be together. She also said I can part ways from her with them for a short time off on our own during the whole trip, like a little mini trip just for me and them. When we normally go to the States, we either stay with her mom or dad. They are divorced. So my wife said I could stay with her dad and she and the kids could stay with her mom, but that we could spend the summer together over there. They live just a few miles apart.

So that call just got me thinking. It got me thinking of her when I was just trying to forget her. And it got me thinking of what I should do. We have agreed all along that the kids will be priority number one no matter what. We have a solid commitment to put them first irrespective of everything. And the kids will always be my weak point.

So Do I want to go on summer vacation with her? No I don't. It WILL feel awkward. And it will feel weird staying with her parents (they both love me to death..but it will feel strange, the atmosphere won't be normal, and somehow it will seem that my wife will be in charge). Do I think it will be nice for my kids to have a vacation with both their parents? In absolute terms I think they would like that. Will I and my kids have a better time if I take them on my own separate holiday trip? I think so but am not sure.

I just don't want to be around my stbxw after divorce. But the kids r the only thing that will keep us linked, so I cannot escape that. But should I go on a holiday with her just to be with my kids. Or should I just take them on my own dad bonding with kids trip.

I do realize that it was a good gesture from my wife to offer me to join. I assume that she is sincerely trying to keep me involved with the kids as we promised each other. So I take that as a positive step from her side. Maybe, just maybe, she also feels a bit left out that I would like to take the kids on my own separate holiday, though I am not sure that really applies here.

So again, I am confused. I had agreed with my wife that we would talk about all the post divorce arrangements in detail right before we sign the papers. But summer planning takes time, we have deadlines to book and reserve and register our vacations with work, so I will have to address this issue sometime soon.

I just don't know what's the more appropriate scenario. I would always always do what's best for my kids. Don't know what works for them best about the summer. And this time I also want to do what gets me happy.

Any advice would be really appreciated.


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## Conrad

Do not do this.

You are observing your reaction to this suggestion.

Clearly, it would hurt you far too much to pretend to be a happy family when you are not.

Just respond, "I'm not ok with that idea".

If she asks why, tell her, "I'm not ok with pretending to be a happy family"


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## Convict

Thx Conrad. It's not like I feel pressured by her anything. No not at all.

I was only thinking about my kids and what would be better for them.

I have no doubt that me and my wife and the kids together will be v weird given the circumstances.

The kids are what I care about first. Then me second. My wife is not on my list.


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## northernlights

Convict said:


> Thx Conrad. It's not like I feel pressured by her anything. No not at all.
> 
> I was only thinking about my kids and what would be better for them.
> 
> I have no doubt that me and my wife and the kids together will be v weird given the circumstances.
> 
> The kids are what I care about first. Then me second. My wife is not on my list.


Wait, I thought you were hoping to reconcile still? Am I confusing you with another poster?


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## Convict

Maybe it was me....but that was earlier on. I realized there is no hope. No reason. And she no longer deserves my efforts.

As hard as it was, that is what I came to convince myself I have to do.

So there is no looking back. 

Now it's about our divorce, and for me it's all about the kids.


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## cbnero

Convict said:


> Maybe it was me....but that was earlier on. I realized there is no hope. No reason. And she no longer deserves my efforts.
> 
> As hard as it was, that is what I came to convince myself I have to do.
> 
> So there is no looking back.
> 
> Now it's about our divorce, and for me it's all about the kids.


Putting up and enforcing boundaries does not make you a bad parent. 

Remember why you aren't together for the kids anymore - her choice, not yours. 

Do not feel guilty for her decisions.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## LongWalk

Convict said:


> Maybe it was me....but that was earlier on. I realized there is no hope. No reason. And she no longer deserves my efforts.
> 
> As hard as it was, that is what I came to convince myself I have to do.
> 
> So there is no looking back.
> 
> Now it's about our divorce, and for me it's all about the kids.


Convict,

If R is out of the question and going on holiday will be painful, just skip it.

Did your wife have an affair or just walk away?


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## eyesopen

You have raised an important issue (IMHO) and that of joint parental involvement (i.e. together) with the kids. That is to say, not just "your time" and "her time" but time for the kids with both of you together. I know views on this will vary. It depends very much on the nature of the post D relationship and parties ability to keep their feelings at bay.

I can say that from my side and experience, basically I want such mutual interactions to happen. And they do. Whether it is school functions, a trip to see the snow (an even where we live), holiday meals (not every one) etc, I believe it is important for the kids to have both their parents together from time to time. And though it has not come up yet, I would like to think that during summer vacation we even make an annual event of taking a small trip together (like a weekend, not a long one). I envision this irrespective of either of our future partners (and personally from my side, anyone who would not understand this would not be my partner).

Now....

Given that all of this is fresh and new, I can certainly understand your feelings. When we were going through the process (and it is not that far away, just two years) we did not do much mutual, maybe just a few holiday dinners, birthdays were separate, etc. I assume each side has to sort through their feelings both with respect to ex spouse and also their family, friends, etc.

But I believe that, probably, you will find that over time, much as it is difficult to understand and accept now, your feelings will relax and such things will be possible.

As an addendum of sorts I would add this. I have been doing a lot of personal development work. One of the things that you can clearly observe is how the ego reacts to these situations. Your ego keeps you separate. Your ego feel "hurt" and a host of other feelings ("poor you, bad her, she hurt me, etc etc"). I do know that but for my ego, all I would feel is love towards the X. And very often I do, but hey I am human so not all the time. Why I am mentioning this is because you need to evaluate the situation with respect to the kids benefit and your own self/ego. If, for example, an interaction is clearly in the interest of the kids then I would say best to keep the ego at bay and do it. This does *not* mean to glaze it over or ignore it. No way. It just means not to let your feelings dictate your actions. The flip side of this of course is that you must and have compassion for yourself. There is no point placing yourself in a situation where you will feel miserable and you would not be able to cope with. In that case it is best to avoid. So in the end it is up to you to take a wise decision in between these two options.


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## Jung_admirer

northernlights said:


> See? His wife wanted to try counseling and he wasn't concerned enough to haul his butt into an office. She probably took his lack of urgency as further proof that he didn't care how she felt. Obviously, that was a bad move on the wife's part!
> 
> uh-oh, crisis.


His wife should have begun IC and then determined if MC was an option on the table. "My partner is not making me happy". Read my tagline ... That which we despise most in our partner is exactly the behavior we are bolstering. Look at Jung, David Burns, Hollis ... all making this same observation. You must own your side of the street (IC) and demand your partner do the same (MC). If they don't respond, well then you have your answer, probably time to move on.


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## northernlights

Jung_admirer said:


> His wife should have begun IC and then determined if MC was an option on the table. "My partner is not making me happy". Read my tagline ... That which we despise most in our partner is exactly the behavior we are bolstering. Look at Jung, David Burns, Hollis ... all making this same observation. You must own your side of the street (IC) and demand your partner do the same (MC). If they don't respond, well then you have your answer, probably time to move on.


I totally agree. I had to run on that response because the little one was freaking out, but I knew if I didn't post what I started, I'd forget.

My story is similar to this btw, and my H hasn't yet responded. However, we have small kids, so I'm continuing to try. So far it's been a hard year of working on myself, and I will say he's made some progress. He's vastly, vastly cut down on the lying. But other major issues are still there.

We'll see.


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## Convict

Thank you all.

Cbnero - I know, or I realized, that breaking up the family is her decision. That is clear. But I have always told myself that I will always put my kids first no matter what happens. I feel I have that supreme responsibility towards them. But I will never feel guilty for where we are or for what happens now or in the future. 

LongWalk - my wife didn't have an affair (as far as I know and I think I'm right on this one). She is what u all call the WAW. We tried working things out more than once, but she has now shut down and wants out with finality. No going back. It's not that the joint holiday will necessarily be painful, just awkward, and so soon after the impending D. That's why it will be weird, and it will be on her home turf, so probably very weird and uncomfortable.

Jung_admirer and northern lights - my wife did not respond to my efforts to try again and fix things. She unilaterally decided to quit and end the M. That's why I have so much respect for the women here who are trying to respond to their husbands and give it another go. I especially respect ur decision northernlights to try cos u have small kids (as I do), which shows u feel and carry a responsibility to try.

Eyesopen - as always, u bring up a lot of great points, and make look at things in a wider perspective. I know it is complicated, and it's a hard decision to make. I always thought the arrangements and circumstances would kind of work themselves out naturally. But I feel going on this vacation together so soon would be very uncomfortable, that's why I had to share my dilemma. I read what u said about the feeling u still have around ur X, and I don't want to be there. I know it's hard to shut them out, and it sucks, and u probably found ur self in that spot cos of ur responsibility as a parent and wanting to have ur kids in as normal an environment as possible. And I totally agree, the grand bargain will always be between ur ego and feelings, and what is best for the kids. I know it will never be a scientific calculation, and feelings will always get in the way. It's like being between a rock and hard place. 

I am leaning towards the option of having my own vacation with my kids. It will kick start my journey of bonding with them once again post D. I need to do that for me this time. But I know I will have to find the right formula of spending time with them with my X but in a way that is comfortable, compassionate and loving (for the kids), and also keeps me and my X jointly involved and responsible for raising and nurturing our two youngs kids. 

God only know how hard all this is. If it weren't really for and about my kids, my emotions and pain and confusion would be a fraction of what they are now.


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## eyesopen

Convict said:


> I am leaning towards the option of having my own vacation with my kids.


I think that is a wise decision as of now. If at all, there will be times for joint things once the dust settles.




Convict said:


> God only know how hard all this is. If it weren't really for and about my kids, my emotions and pain and confusion would be a fraction of what they are now.


Yes, it is very hard. But remember that tomorrow is another day and that you _will_ get through this. If you are so inclined, look up "Dark Night of the Soul"


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## cbnero

Sometimes people need to see the reality of the mess they make before they attempt to clean it up.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Convict

So it seems my divorce is just a few short days away. I have spent the last few weeks feeling angry and lonely, but also fulfilled and peaceful. The spectrum of my emotions has never been so wide. 

I also spent the past few weeks discussing with my stbxw the arrangements about our kids and their finances. It was emotionally taxing. I truly want to be there to provide for my kids but do not trust my stbxw enough to corner me into any arrangements that she profit from. It is such a hard magical formula to reach.

I have also tried teaching myself to let go of my anger towards her and sense of betrayel from her. I know that these feelings will serve me no good and they will only make me more miserable. So I am truly trying to bury the anger and resentment and just look at her as a soon to be ex wife who will just remain the mother of my kids. 

The emotional roller coaster has indeed been taking its toll. But I recognize that closure, and only full closure, can really propel me to start living my new life. Hopefully when the papers are finalized and signed, that new life will really begin.

I don't know if anyone will still follow this thread, but this thread was really the only true sanctuary of support that I found. Reading back on all the posts made me see where I stood at one point, and how low that point really was, and where I am standing now, and where I hope to be standing when the marriage is finally over.


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## northernlights

Hugs. I hope every day is better than the last and that you find a new, much better life than the one you had before.


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## Convict

Thanks Northernlights for that, I especially needed that hug 
I do feel much better...I even had a great day at work.
Last night I had a long conversation with my stbxw and finally agreed on all the logistics and finances for the kids....which gave me a great sense of closure. 
And I decided to take my new life one day at a time and see where it leads me. 
Thanks again for your support.


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## Dedicated2Her

Convict said:


> So it seems my divorce is just a few short days away. I have spent the last few weeks feeling angry and lonely, but also fulfilled and peaceful. The spectrum of my emotions has never been so wide.
> 
> I also spent the past few weeks discussing with my stbxw the arrangements about our kids and their finances. It was emotionally taxing. I truly want to be there to provide for my kids but do not trust my stbxw enough to corner me into any arrangements that she profit from. It is such a hard magical formula to reach.
> 
> *You can't look at it this way. If you stbxw profits, more than likely, so do your children.*
> 
> I have also tried teaching myself to let go of my anger towards her and sense of betrayel from her. I know that these feelings will serve me no good and they will only make me more miserable. So I am truly trying to bury the anger and resentment and just look at her as a soon to be ex wife who will just remain the mother of my kids.
> 
> The emotional roller coaster has indeed been taking its toll. But I recognize that closure, and only full closure, can really propel me to start living my new life. Hopefully when the papers are finalized and signed, that new life will really begin.
> 
> I don't know if anyone will still follow this thread, but this thread was really the only true sanctuary of support that I found. Reading back on all the posts made me see where I stood at one point, and how low that point really was, and where I am standing now, and where I hope to be standing when the marriage is finally over.


My take on doing things together for the kids......NO. My therapist's take on it (faith based)......NO. See, you are now embarking on creating a life for your children outside of their mom. It is a separate life. You and her have different value systems. (sorry, but you absolutely do) Therefore, you have to create an example for them. Kids will always have some hope that their parents will get back together. Doing things together will only fuel that hope. I chose to explain to my children how I live, show them how I live, and follow up with that. How can you do activities with someone who is untrustworthy? Why would you allow someone to be in your life that can't treat you the way you treat them?

Your kids will feed off your attitude about it. My kids are so comfortable not doing things together because I am very happy and create a happy environment for them. They understand why the divorce was a great thing for me and for them so they embrace it.

It has nothing to do with ego, but understanding that when you treat someone like dirt and you betray them and you betray who you said you were, life will be very different. My ex is an unhappy person, and I want all the time I spend with my children to be a positive, happy experience. SO, I set a boundry. Now, when you start to date, how would your new partner feel about having your ex around? It just creates more drama down the road. AND, guess what? Your kids have had enough drama.


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## LongWalk

eyesopen,

Did your ex remarry?


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## Convict

D2H....thx for the comments and sharing your experience.

I was always man enough to put up with a lot of things in my marriage to try and save my family and do what's best for the kids. But now I am getting a divorce and I can't change that.

My stbxw always says that I am a great dad....and I also know that she is a good mom. No matter how we feel towards one another....the one thing we agree on is to make sure the kids r fine.

My own preference is to have my alone quality time with my kids as often as possible....but I do think that over time there will be events and opportunities for both me and my ex to be with them together. If I feel comfortable with it....I will allow that to happen. If I don't than I won't let myself be put in that spot. I guess it's all work in progress and we won't know till we cross that bridge...


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## Dedicated2Her

Convict said:


> D2H....thx for the comments and sharing your experience.
> 
> I was always man enough to put up with a lot of things in my marriage to try and save my family and do what's best for the kids. But now I am getting a divorce and I can't change that.
> 
> My stbxw always says that I am a great dad....and I also know that she is a good mom. No matter how we feel towards one another....the one thing we agree on is to make sure the kids r fine.
> 
> My own preference is to have my alone quality time with my kids as often as possible....but I do think that over time there will be events and opportunities for both me and my ex to be with them together. If I feel comfortable with it....I will allow that to happen. If I don't than I won't let myself be put in that spot. I guess it's all work in progress and we won't know till we cross that bridge...


Seek counsel as you go through these things with someone who is privy to the entire experience.... i.e. a therapist that you have been seeing, etc.

My ex and I see each other at soccer games/football games/school events. (you will absolutely see them in these types of situations) However, we live very different lives with two totally different social circles. Our divorce was extremely amicable. I really had no hard feelings about it by the time I moved out. 

"and I also know that she is a good mom." Gosh, I've said this about my ex so many times. It wasn't until my therapist looked at me and said. "D2h, what would you consider the be the most important thing for a mom?" I didn't respond. "Her number one priority and charge as a mother is to make sure her relationship with her husband is good."

So, in retrospect, in the most important part of being a good mom........she is a failure. Sorry, not a good mom. And, you will see this play out in their lives on the other side when your influence is reduced. AND, that is ok too! Your charge as a father is to lead your children and be an example to them. You will be able to take a more "mentoring" role through this because you won't be with them 24/7.


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## Convict

D2H....I hear u on every point...and yes I agree the big failure lies on destroying the family and by extension disrupting the kids lives.

But we r where we are....I wish I wasn't but I am.

I do intend to stay fully connected to my kids...and they will connect to me in my own life and in my own space. They will have their own time and space in my stbxw's own separate life.

I am sure those two worlds will overlap at a point or two just for the sake and convenience of the kids. But without any doubt I will go my own way and live my own happy and independent life from my ex. And I will allow it to overlap only if and when I feel comfortable....and just for the kids....nothing more nothing less.

I can understand that isn't always so easy....and there will be complications, and anger, and confusion, and emotions. Like I said, this will all be new to me, so I will take it one step at a time.


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## Dedicated2Her

Convict said:


> But we r where we are....I wish I wasn't but I am.


You might look at it differently down the road. I wouldn't change a thing. It was the greatest experience of my life. It will have a tremendous positive impact on my and my children's future.


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## eyesopen

Convict said:


> My own preference is to have my alone quality time with my kids as often as possible....but I do think that over time there will be events and opportunities for both me and my ex to be with them together. If I feel comfortable with it....I will allow that to happen. If I don't than I won't let myself be put in that spot. I guess it's all work in progress and we won't know till we cross that bridge...


Friend, follow your heart. Listen to it, it is wise (and tell the Ego to shut the fxxk up). 

I know others differ but my view, also, is that kids need both parents, and they need them to have good communication, amicable relationship (if not friendly), and NO conflict. Though separated, parents are parents. I myself do a lot of personal development work to be able to set my feelings aside and do what is best for the kids (and that does not mean ignoring my feelings, it just means not letting them drive me). We just had a holiday meal a while ago, and their mom came (actually with her mom also). Son has a birthday party with her family soon, I will go. We were also supposed to go on an overnight camping together (it was vacation time), but that got canceled for some other reason.

Again, listen to your heart. It knows. And it is good. Inherently.

Peace


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## Convict

Eyesopen....
Thank you....always.
You had told me the balance between the kids and me and the ex will be difficult to find....and I do know that.

But like yourself...I think anything and everything for the kids should always come first. I intend to operate under that principle as long as it doesn't undermine me or put me in an awkward place.

I know I must bury my emotions and feelings and anger for my ex...and I am glad to see that I have come a long way in doing that. 

And I believe that nature will take its own course and bring me and the ex and the kids together on occasions from time to time....if it's good for the kids I will do my best to make that happen. And I will make sure it's always fine with me...and my heart.

Still haven't embarked on that path just yet...but I know it will present itself sooner or later.

Again...thank you for being here....this is after all your thread....but as I mentioned much earlier....I had nowhere else to go.


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## eyesopen

Convict said:


> I know I must bury my emotions and feelings and anger for my ex...a


Actually, no. You must not bury them. That takes energy and is anyways false. Feel them. Give them space. Get to know them. Only, do not act on them. Do not let them push your buttons. I know it may sound strange or hard but that's the way (the other is to deny your feelings).

Strange as it sounds, with time, the feelings will fade even as you focus on them.


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## Convict

I hear u....but I am really trying and already succeeding in moving on.

It has taken a lot of acceptance and emotional soul searching....but I am hopefully inching closer towards closure. 

That is why I am trying to forget the positive feelings I once had for her...and the negative feelings she compelled me to have for her now. I believe neither will do me any good....

Yes they do and will fade away with time....I just figured I will set them aside sooner rather than later.

In all cases I do totally agree that any feelings should not drive me or cloud my thoughts. That's why I really feel good and satisfied cos I just reached a good arrangements with my ex about the logistics and finances related to my kids. I did that by putting my kids needs first and setting aside all my emotions towards her. 

And as u had mentioned earlier....I intend to focus as much of my energies on my kids....and just my kids (plus bettering myself of course)....thus my desire to make all those old and current emotions a distant memory.....


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## Dedicated2Her

eyesopen said:


> Friend, follow your heart. Listen to it, it is wise (and tell the Ego to shut the fxxk up).
> 
> I know others differ but my view, also, is that kids need both parents, and they need them to have good communication, amicable relationship (if not friendly), and NO conflict. Though separated, parents are parents. I myself do a lot of personal development work to be able to set my feelings aside and do what is best for the kids (and that does not mean ignoring my feelings, it just means not letting them drive me). We just had a holiday meal a while ago, and their mom came (actually with her mom also). Son has a birthday party with her family soon, I will go. We were also supposed to go on an overnight camping together (it was vacation time), but that got canceled for some other reason.
> 
> Again, listen to your heart. It knows. And it is good. Inherently.
> 
> Peace


Eyesopen.....in other posts you refer to still being "hung up" on your ex. Has your ex introduced a partner to your children yet? Have you started dating and introduced someone to your children yet? 

I would say that your inability to emotionally cut off your ex from your inner self has a lot to do with doing "family" things. There are very specific reasons for not doing things as a "family". Long term, it is unhealthy for both parents, specifically when it is time to introduce a new partner. It isn't healthy for the children emotionally because it creates more instability LONG TERM, not short term. Their lives will change AGAIN in the parental dynamics and how their family operates when another partner is introduced because it isn't fair to that partner. 

One thing that is very clear in therapy circles, is you NEVER follow your heart. EVER. That is following the ego because you are following your emotional responses. They key to successfully navigating things like divorce long term is to sit down and create logical things that are good with a professional to help guide you. THEN, you do the actions regardless how you feel. Over time, your emotions will follow your actions, therefore, you lead your heart where it is supposed to go. So, on one hand, you are correct about the ego. On the other, the process is a little different. I've seen other people in addition to my own experience quite a bit of chaos when trying to coparent so closely (family trips, holidays)when another party enters. It brings issues.

Of course birthday parties, etc are done jointly. But, even the notion of holidays or vacations together is setting everyone up for problems. It will blow up, eventually. It always does.

But hey, at the end of the day, doing is learning. Do what you want and let life teach you.


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## Dedicated2Her

Convict said:


> I hear u....but I am really trying and already succeeding in moving on.
> 
> It has taken a lot of acceptance and emotional soul searching....but I am hopefully inching closer towards closure.
> 
> That is why I am trying to forget the positive feelings I once had for her...and the negative feelings she compelled me to have for her now. I believe neither will do me any good....
> 
> Yes they do and will fade away with time....I just figured I will set them aside sooner rather than later.
> 
> In all cases I do totally agree that any feelings should not drive me or cloud my thoughts. That's why I really feel good and satisfied cos I just reached a good arrangements with my ex about the logistics and finances related to my kids. I did that by putting my kids needs first and setting aside all my emotions towards her.
> 
> And as u had mentioned earlier....I intend to focus as much of my energies on my kids....and just my kids (plus bettering myself of course)....thus my desire to make all those old and current emotions a distant memory.....


Convict....have you forgiven her?


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## Convict

D2h....I don't think I am required to forgive her. In my mind...and according to my own narrative....she has betrayed me...she broke my family...and she bailed out of our marriage. I have never claimed to have been a perfect husband....and she must have her own reasons for jumping ship....but in my mind she decided to quit instead of facing the challenge of staying and working to fix it. 

So that is what I firmly believe now....and I don't think that will change. So no forgiving is required as far as I see it. I also have bitter feelings towards her. And anger. But those feelings will fade away over time...and like I said earlier....being angry won't do me any good. How I deal with my anger and bury my bitterness is what really matters. I will be better off once I do so completely. 

If u add the kids into the equation....things are obviously a bit more complex. 

U and Eyesopen clearly have different approaches and experiences as to how to include or exclude the ex jointly with the kids. I can imagine there r a million different prisms to look at the issue from. It can be both good and bad for the kids. It could be either cordial or charged for the two adults. It could be either complex or straightforward and simple between extended family members. We can't scientifically predict each and every situation.

I am sure we can all agree though that the kids will always come first....so as a general rule what will be good for them should be our overall guiding principle. How we determine the details and logistics and arrangements will just have to come naturally....by trial and error....by observation.....and by the passage of time. 

I am not even divorced yet so I can't even talk from experience...but these r just my two cents.


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## eyesopen

Dedicated2Her said:


> Eyesopen.....in other posts you refer to still being "hung up" on your ex.


I don't recall the language I used in that post but I don't think it is hung-up but rather a searching of my feelings as to what I truly feel as to the nature of our (past) relationship. It may sound over analyzing, but it matters to me to know whether I really did/do love her or whether I just love the notion of that relationship, familiarity, etc. I feel that having a better understanding of myself in this regard will help me.



Dedicated2Her said:


> Has your ex introduced a partner to your children yet? Have you started dating and introduced someone to your children yet?


No, neither of us has. I don't know if she has been dating, I don't think so, but frankly I don't want to know. There will be a time I suppose when I must, but as of now I don't want to know. I deal with her (not out of negativity) on a "strictly business" basis.

On that note I do recognize that I am not willing to expose my children to other relationships I may be having (regardless of nature). This is, in my analysis, both because I am over protective of them and their feelings (which, for now, is OK in my book) and partially because maybe in my subconscious I have not yet fully moved on yet. This is also OK, time has its place and things must come to fruition. It is a process that cannot and should not be forced.




Dedicated2Her said:


> I would say that your inability to emotionally cut off your ex from your inner self has a lot to do with doing "family" things.


Maybe, but not for the most part. In my belief, I see value in kids having access to, and seeing, two healthy parents and sometimes they need their parents together and not only as a binary option. Of course this should not be over done, and it is not.



Dedicated2Her said:


> There are very specific reasons for not doing things as a "family". Long term, it is unhealthy for both parents, specifically when it is time to introduce a new partner. It isn't healthy for the children emotionally because it creates more instability LONG TERM, not short term. Their lives will change AGAIN in the parental dynamics and how their family operates when another partner is introduced because it isn't fair to that partner.


Agreed that second partners (whether single of with kids of their own) will introduce different dynamics which must be accounted for, wisely.




Dedicated2Her said:


> One thing that is very clear in therapy circles, is you NEVER follow your heart. EVER. That is following the ego because you are following your emotional responses.


On this I strongly differ but I believe that the root is our different definition of Heart. What I mean is heart absent ego. You know how you know something "deep down" and yet sometimes or often do otherwise? The otherwise is driven by the Ego, the deep down stuff is your heart. It is that which one must learn to hear (no small feat, to hear it truly) and follow.


----------



## eyesopen

Convict said:


> I hear u....but I am really trying and already succeeding in moving on.
> 
> It has taken a lot of acceptance and emotional soul searching....but I am hopefully inching closer towards closure.
> 
> That is why I am trying to forget the positive feelings I once had for her...and the negative feelings she compelled me to have for her now. I believe neither will do me any good....
> 
> Yes they do and will fade away with time....I just figured I will set them aside sooner rather than later.
> 
> In all cases I do totally agree that any feelings should not drive me or cloud my thoughts. That's why I really feel good and satisfied cos I just reached a good arrangements with my ex about the logistics and finances related to my kids. I did that by putting my kids needs first and setting aside all my emotions towards her.
> 
> And as u had mentioned earlier....I intend to focus as much of my energies on my kids....and just my kids (plus bettering myself of course)....thus my desire to make all those old and current emotions a distant memory.....


D2H raises a good point about forgiveness (albeit I don't know the context). It is paramount, BUT, cannot be forced unnaturally. You have to grow in to it.

I myself am working with feelings both towards X and also another man who's part in the story is unknown. Thinking about forgiveness is at first like drinking poison. But the same as with emotions and physical pain, if you focus on it, it loses it's power.

I will give you a fable:

Two prisoners of war meet years later. One says to the other, have you forgiven your captors? The other says: no! never! So the first says: well, then they still hold you captive...


Peace


----------



## Dedicated2Her

eyesopen said:


> I don't recall the language I used in that post but I don't think it is hung-up but rather a searching of my feelings as to what I truly feel as to the nature of our (past) relationship. It may sound over analyzing, but it matters to me to know whether I really did/do love her or whether I just love the notion of that relationship, familiarity, etc. I feel that having a better understanding of myself in this regard will help me.
> 
> 
> 
> No, neither of us has. I don't know if she has been dating, I don't think so, but frankly I don't want to know. There will be a time I suppose when I must, but as of now I don't want to know. I deal with her (not out of negativity) on a "strictly business" basis.
> 
> On that note I do recognize that I am not willing to expose my children to other relationships I may be having (regardless of nature). This is, in my analysis, both because I am over protective of them and their feelings (which, for now, is OK in my book) and partially because maybe in my subconscious I have not yet fully moved on yet. This is also OK, time has its place and things must come to fruition. It is a process that cannot and should not be forced.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe, but not for the most part. In my belief, I see value in kids having access to, and seeing, two healthy parents and sometimes they need their parents together and not only as a binary option. Of course this should not be over done, and it is not.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed that second partners (whether single of with kids of their own) will introduce different dynamics which must be accounted for, wisely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On this I strongly differ but I believe that the root is our different definition of Heart. What I mean is heart absent ego. You know how you know something "deep down" and yet sometimes or often do otherwise? The otherwise is driven by the Ego, the deep down stuff is your heart. It is that which one must learn to hear (no small feat, to hear it truly) and follow.


Agreed on not forcing dating or introducing anyone into the kids lives. Most of the time it is the wayward that pushes this. We betrayed spouses tend to be very protective.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Convict said:


> D2h....I don't think I am required to forgive her. In my mind...and according to my own narrative....she has betrayed me...she broke my family...and she bailed out of our marriage. I have never claimed to have been a perfect husband....and she must have her own reasons for jumping ship....but in my mind she decided to quit instead of facing the challenge of staying and working to fix it.



Eyesopen makes my point with his fable. You aren't forgiving her because you are required to. You forgive her to set yourself free. Forgiving her is the very thing that is going to allow you to deal with your children dynamic with a clear head. It also is going to make you a much happier man!


----------



## Convict

D2H....
There might be a very fine line between forgiving her and overcoming my anger...

I think I will always believe that she was wrong in dumping our marriage and betraying me...I don't think I can ever accept that was a correct course of action.

What I can do is not be angry with her....and I am no longer angry with her....as I know anger will do me no good...and will not help me move on....nor will it be healthy for my kids....

I am moving along relatively well....and my anger is receding as every day passes by...but I cannot accept that what she did to me and my family will ever be ok and justifiable....


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Forgiveness isn't saying that what happened to you was ok or what she did was ok. Forgiveness is saying to that person..."what you did was wrong. I won't accept it as good. It hurt. BUT, I release you."

So, forgiveness is not reconciliation. It is releasing the right to vengeance, releasing the anger, and finding peace within it. It comes in time. Give it time....do the work on yourself that you need to do. You really might end up shocked at how much of a blessing this can be. I was the betrayed, and now am so thankful my ex did what she did. I have never been this happy, and my kids are doing extremely well. SOOOOOO glad she didn't turn around and fight for our marriage. Even if she would have had a heart change, life would have never been as good as it could have been.


----------



## eyesopen

Dedicated2Her said:


> Forgiveness isn't saying that what happened to you was ok or what she did was ok. Forgiveness is saying to that person..."what you did was wrong. I won't accept it as good. It hurt. BUT, I release you."
> 
> So, forgiveness is not reconciliation. It is releasing the right to vengeance, releasing the anger, and finding peace within it. It comes in time. Give it time....do the work on yourself that you need to do. You really might end up shocked at how much of a blessing this can be. I was the betrayed, and now am so thankful my ex did what she did. I have never been this happy, and my kids are doing extremely well. SOOOOOO glad she didn't turn around and fight for our marriage. Even if she would have had a heart change, life would have never been as good as it could have been.


Sadhu! Sadhu!

Yes, listen to D2H. Every word, gold.

Keep going, you are on the right track.

Peace


----------



## Convict

D2H and Eyesopen....
You both make your points clearly and convincingly....I guess it might be because the divorce has been behind you both for a while.

I am not there yet....I am just on the verge of having my marriage end.

The words I can use to describe my feelings and emotions are infinite. Anger. Yes....but it is receding and fading away. Betrayal. Yes...and it hurts but nothing like before. Emptiness. Totally....but I am filling that void with new friends and activities. Sadness. Absolutely....mostly when I think about my kids....but I do know they will be fine and I will continue to do a superb job of being their father and always being there for them.

Revenge. No. Never crossed my mind. It's not who I am. It will do me no good. On the contrary....I wish my stbxw all the best and every success....if not for anything then for the sole fact that she is the mother of my two kids.

Accepting what has happened? Yes....I have already done that. And I know for certain that there is nothing I could have done myself to save this marriage. Therefore I do feel at peace. With myself. And when I think of my kids future.

Forgiveness. This is where I am still stuck in the grey zone. I do hear u both when u say I am not required to accept that what she did was okay. Even if my future life is better than ever. I still can't process the fact that it was alright.

I did release her....because that is what she ultimately wanted. And I do feel at peace. No anger clouding my thoughts...no desire to hurt her....no wish to seek vengeance. 

I appreciate that with the passage of time I may eventually "forgive" her for what she put me through....maybe that will happen....and maybe I might put all my feelings to rest when I do so.....

What I do know is that I am moving on....and I will not be angry or resentful of her....it won't do me any good....and life will continue in all cases....i do know that. 

Thank you both for sharing your thoughts and experiences.


----------



## movealong

I am so glad to have found and read this entire thread. Just the reading has really helped me. I think i will bookmark it and read it at least once or twice a week for a while. Excellent posts.


----------



## Convict

I also take comfort from reading this thread from beginning to end from time to time. 

There seem to be soo many who go through similar situations out there.

Hopefully what u r or may be going through will be a lighter burden to bear.


----------



## Convict

So it finally happened. My divorce got finalized today. It's done. 

I actually spent the last few days feeling relatively good. I was doing fine. My anger almost totally receded. My bitterness is almost gone. I was no longer sad. And I was not feeling empty.

I even began contemplating that I may just "forgive" my ex for what I believe she did to me and my family. 

But in all cases I was feeling at peace with myself.

I never ever imagined that this day would ever come. But I know in my heart and mind that I did everything I could have done to save this marriage. I tried my best....but like others before me had advised...I had no choice but to let go....and to release her. 

I have no idea what the future may hold. I am keeping myself busy and very engaged. I feel fulfilled at work. And I am excited to spend more quality time with my kids. I always feel sadness when I think what life will be like for them after the divorce....but many of u here have given me faith that they will be okay and that I as a father will always have that special status that the divorce will never impact or erase.

It was almost three long months ago since I first got onto TAM...and found this thread....and Eyesopen graciously allowed me to share my own story here as I had nowhere else to go.

You have all given me strength and support without which I would have been in a much worse state of mind. 

I realize how far I progressed over these three months. When I read back on this thread, I see that I was undoubtedly experiencing one of the lowest moments in my life. But I also see how I managed to move along. And I can see now that I am actually going to be fine and I will embark, as of tomorrow, on my new journey.

There was always a small part of me that was still hoping that a miracle may still happen to save my marriage or restore her commitment to our family. The miracle never materialized....and I am divorced. 

I fully believe that I am now where I am meant to be. This is what God has in store for me. I cannot change that. I accept it. It was painful, very painful, but I will have the fortitude to proceed. I truly believe those of u who said that life may even be better. I truly do. I will let nature take its course and see where the road leads me.

I embark on this journey with hope, with strength, with fears, with worries, and with uncertainty. It's a whole new set of emotions that I must begin to grapple with. 

I cannot thank u all enough once again for your support and for helping me understand things that I was unable to see or comprehend at the time. And as always, Eyesopen, thank you for giving me the space to share my story and for sharing your own with me.


----------



## cbnero

Congrats on this. One door closed, but another door opened. Remember to make the most of each day from now on and stop worrying about tomorrow. Tomorrow will take care of itself.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## PickingupthePieces

Wow
I stumbled onto this site last night and cant believe the stories detailed above. Change Convicts name to mine and the story reads the exact same. Almost to a T.

I had planned on telling my version in my own thread but find no need to. It is all said here. I hope you (eyesopen, convict everyone else who contributed) all dont mind me using your space for my saga. I truely find this posting to be the most helpful, relateable, source available to anyone going through what we all are or have been through and it deserves to be kept alive for others who need help.

My stbx informed me of her affair about 3 weeks ago. 17 years married, 2 great kids and what I thought was a solid marriage til death did us part. WOW- what a an unbeleivable, emotional 3 and a half weeks Ive (as you all know) have been through.

At 1st (day of her telling me) my emotions were lets get this fixed, I will get over the anger from the betrayal and lets keep our family together. I still have the mental pics, of her response was not being very receptive and her not even shedding a tear about the whole thing, and should have notice that it truely is over.

Next day my emotions are running high and the anger sets in as I realize that my clouded vision is what says everything will be ok and I can forgive you etc...
I immediately begin gathering info for attys and searching for info on legal issues (kids, house, assets etc)

I come home on the 4th day after the bombshell hit me with the attitude of divorce is imminent, with mediation already lined up and finally get a bit a resistance from her asking why am I moving so quickly, why rush into such a huge decision yada yada yada. 

And the 1st mistake I make is talking us both into MC. We agree that we can possibly work things out and the next few days actually go well. I'm all over her and dont miss a single opportunity to tell her how much I love her and miss what the last few days have brought. My helping around the house is at levels never seen and my committment is huge- All well right- WRONG.

We hit our 1st counsel session only for me to be bombarded with why I brought this affair on and why I need so much work etc.. (to which some is true but I try to remind her who had the affair) anyways she leaves counselling angrier than befrore. For the next full 4 days we are stagnant with little talking, mostly leading me to push her away. My affection that was accepted last week is now bouncing off her barricade left and right.
We are living together pretending to try to make things work but dont even talk to each other because every thing leads to an argument of some sort. 

Finally Im able to get some quality discussion time in with her no kids around and bluntly hit her with the questions I knew didnt really want to hear the answers to

Do you really want to make this work?
Are your feelings for the affairee stonger than for me and for the salvage of our family?
Bottom line him or me?
Do you just want to proceed with the divorce?
Every single answer was I dont know, I just need space and some time to figure it out!

Game over right then and there for me- Divorce it is!
There is no looking back.

The pain I really feel is that she has him to fall back on in this time of absolute devastation and Im left holding a future of ??????????? and really not too many people to talk with.

I go through the typical why is this happening to me scenarios over and over in my head and all the what ifs I would have done this or that and finally come to the conclusion that I cant change what has happened, I keep hearing I can become stronger for this somehow some way but know that is a loooong way away.

I have since rescheduled our mediation (today after work) with a bit of angst on her part because she thinks Im trying to push this through to somehow get an edge on her with the divorce.
I assure her the mediator is impartial and only offers suggestions to terms we both have to agree with.
I just want closure to move on!

Last night was the first sign of any emotion from her in days as she questions if Im sure this is the right thing for us, and am I positive, and if so how do I know.
I fight off my emotions that 2 weeks ago would have led to me being involved in discussions about more what ifs, and why nots and probably more MC.
Inside my heart I feel that even if she has some guilt, resentment and questions about us, this is most likely is just a stall tactic and I stand firm about moving on with divorce and actually wish her well with her new man if thats the way she goes. I let her know that I no longer will be asking about him and have accepted things to be the way they are.

Things are hard we are still going to live together until it all is finalized and the kids 5,11 are my only focus.
The D11 knows something is amiss and we are having troubles deciding whether or not to just let her know now and start working on positive ways to ease the transition when the time comes? I really dont know the right answer to this. 

Im so thankful to find this sight and post in particular. Knowing you arent the only one whose world has been flipped upside down stop like this and that there are others to confide in make things easier to deal with.

Im hurt and so saddened by it all But Im moving on.
Some day do I hope she looks back and holds so much regret that it still pains her on her death bed- Absolutely, but in the meantime I plan on being the best daddy ever and hopefully finding someone to share my precious time with.

I think Convict may have said this at one point, My next girlfriend will be lucky to have a person who is better off from their past experiences.

Thanks to everybody who takes the time to not only open up about their pains but those whos are able to contribute in meaningful positive ways.


----------



## movealong

Sorry you are here with the rest of us. But, this is a good place to get informed and get some virtual support from people who have been there and done that.



> The D11 knows something is amiss and we are having troubles deciding whether or not to just let her know now and start working on positive ways to ease the transition when the time comes? I really dont know the right answer to this.


We told our D11 the day of the decision to divorce. It is giving her time to come to grips with the change before my STBXW moves out. I am aggravated right now because STBXW decided to put all of the items she is taking with her in the living room, and there the stacks of boxes, clothes, and nick nacks have been for a week, and will be for another week and a half.

D11 probably has more understanding that you realize. If there is an amicable way for you both to sit down with her, that would be best. Reassure her that it is not her fault, and that she is entitled to feel ALL her emotions, anger, sadness, relief, etc. Don't tell her "not to be sad" because it is "for the best", that minimizes her feelings and makes her suppress them. Let her articulate what she is feeling.


----------



## Convict

I too am sorry to hear ur story. As u have related to mine....I can totally relate to the emotional roller coaster u may be going through.

I can fully appreciate the sense of betrayal u r feeling. And even though my x did not have an affair (to the best of my knowledge and I have no reason to believe otherwise)....I can understand that ur sense of betrayal is even magnified. 

It is of course upto u if u want to try and reconcile with her. But u must ask ur self a few questions: is she worth it? Is the marriage fixable? Does she totally want to? Does she feel remorse for what she did? And are u really wiling to forgive her? 

I personally gave up a lot and went out of my way to try and save my marriage....especially cos I have two small kids. But I don't think I could have accepted my x if she cheated on me.

I know it is tempting to try....and to imagine ur marriage being saved...and imagine having it back the way it once was....but we can all easily fall into the trap of letting the wife twist the situation and heaping all the responsibility to change on the husband. We tend to fall into the trap because we feel vulnerable. And it is here that u must allow ur mind to have full control over ur heart. If ur mind says she is not worth it...then u must let her go.

U have already said u r moving on....and that is a good thing. U have already said u intend to stay fully engaged with ur kids....that is essential.

But u also expressed anger and a residual sense of vengeance against her. That is not healthy....neither for u nor for ur kids. The past is the past. Let go of the anger post divorce...do it for yourself....her regretting the divorce after it's over won't change anything. Try and be at peace with yourself.....it will really make a difference inside u. The anger will not.

I wish u all the best whichever path life takes you on

As for this thread....the only person u really need to thank is the OP...he started it....and so many others out there connected to it.


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## Convict

I know it’s been a couple of years....and I suspect all of us have kind of moved on. But is anyone here? Can anyone still see what’s being posted on this thread? This was where I came to for some support...and it’s where I want to return to get some additional advice. Anyone still here?


----------



## sokillme

Convict said:


> I know it’s been a couple of years....and I suspect all of us have kind of moved on. But is anyone here? Can anyone still see what’s being posted on this thread? This was where I came to for some support...and it’s where I want to return to get some additional advice. Anyone still here?


Give us an update.


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## ReturntoZero

Convict said:


> I know it’s been a couple of years....and I suspect all of us have kind of moved on. But is anyone here? Can anyone still see what’s being posted on this thread? This was where I came to for some support...and it’s where I want to return to get some additional advice. Anyone still here?


Many of us are still here. What's up?


----------



## Convict

Thank you both.
I was here a few years ago when my wife was divorcing me. I've had my ups and downs ever since.....but for the most part I bounced back and started living my new life to the fullest. 
My two kids, both are boys, one is 11 and the other is 8, live with my x. 
We have a working relationship that revolves primarily around the kids, and I get to see my kids every weekend. 
When I was posting here on this thread a few years ago, I always mentioned that the most important thing now in my entire life is my kids. 
And the kids and I have been just super throughout the post-divorce years and enjoy our times together more than ever.
NOW, my X wants to remarry. I have absolutely no residual feelings for her....so I am in no way jealous or emotionally distressed by the fact that she wants to marry a new man. 
What concerns me is my kids. 
She is asking for my permission to be able to remarry this guy and allow my kids to continue living with her, and have this new man in her - and their - lives. 
I know that the new husband will NEVER replace me as the father of my kids. I know that. He even appears to be a nice kind of guy....
I also know at this young age that my kids are better off living with their mother....
BUT introducing this new element of a stranger living with them is what is now distressing me. 
I only want whats best for my kids....and I dont know if I should approve of this arrangement, or if I should tell her that I am opposed to my kids living with a stranger. 
I have been through a lot since my divorce....but my only weak spot is when it comes to my kids. 
I dont know if I can accept the CONCEPT of my kids living with another man....and I am still not sure if THIS MAN is suitable to live with my kids if ever I accept the concept to begin with.
I've been very distressed and aimless for the past few days since this issue came up....and my thoughts are confused as hell.
I came here to TAM during my darkest hour when my wife was divorcing me....and this was the place I can only come back to for some additional support with this issue I am facing now.


----------



## ReturntoZero

What do you know about him?

Does he have children? Has he ever been married?

Does he have a job?

Any history of substance abuse or mental illness?


----------



## Convict

She hasn’t introduced him to me yet. So I don’t know him or know his past. 
My kids seem to like him overall from the time he spends with them and their mom. 
My ex wife’s father, with whom I still on very good terms, has met him and thinks he is a good guy, though he understands the feelings I have about this whole issue. 
Of course the time will come for me to meet they guy, discuss everything with x, and also talk to my kids about it....but it’s all just so confusing even at this early stage.


----------



## Lostinthought61

what is the expected role this man will have with the boys have you discussed this her?


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## manfromlamancha

Lostinthought61 said:


> what is the expect role this man will have with the boys have you discussed this her?


Probably the most important question that needs to be carefully addressed.


----------



## Convict

Honestly we haven’t discussed any details at all yet. 
Obviously we will start that conversation at one point so I can have all the info in front me. 
But at this point I just wanted to come back to TAM cos I feel confused, distressed and scared....and I am not sure how I should handle this....and how to proceed...and what to decide when everything becomes clear.


----------



## ReturntoZero

Convict said:


> She hasn’t introduced him to me yet. So I don’t know him or know his past.
> My kids seem to like him overall from the time he spends with them and their mom.
> My ex wife’s father, with whom I still on very good terms, has met him and thinks he is a good guy, though he understands the feelings I have about this whole issue.
> Of course the time will come for me to meet they guy, discuss everything with x, and also talk to my kids about it....but it’s all just so confusing even at this early stage.


I think you should ask to meet with both of them as soon as possible. Kick the tires.


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## bandit.45

Invite them to meet with you at some place public for coffee and a sit-down, so you can meet him and get a feel for him.


----------



## Convict

Yes of course u are both right and that’s what I plan to do. 
Just to make things clear tho....my x wife does understand that she needs my consent on this and that is what she began to seek right now. 
So she knows that this all hinges on my decision and we both know that we need to sit down and discuss it thru and for me to meet the guy and see what he’s all about. 
I’m just so drained by all this and don’t know what decision will b best for my kids. It pains and scares me....


----------



## Chaparral

Why do they sons not live with you half the time? 
Also didn’t your wife have an affair? Is this a different guy?
You should hire a PI to check him out. At least run every kind of search you can on him. Talk to his ex wife.


----------



## bandit.45

Convict said:


> Yes of course u are both right and that’s what I plan to do.
> Just to make things clear tho....my x wife does understand that she needs my consent on this and that is what she began to seek right now.
> So she knows that this all hinges on my decision and we both know that we need to sit down and discuss it thru and for me to meet the guy and see what he’s all about.
> I’m just so drained by all this and don’t know what decision will b best for my kids. It pains and scares me....


Um...sorry to tell you, but she does not need your consent. She can marry whomever she wants and you really have no say in it. I think she is asking for your blessing in the hopes of smoothing things over and creating goodwill between yourself, her fiancée and yourself going forwards. She is showing you respect and courtesy, which is a good thing. But she doesn't need your consent to marry this man. 

She could marry Ali Sheikh Mohammed and there is no way you could stop her. All you can do is go to court and file for sole custody of the kids if you think they are in jeopardy, but then the burden would be on you to prove it.


----------



## MJJEAN

Convict said:


> Yes of course u are both right and that’s what I plan to do.
> Just to make things clear tho....*my x wife does understand that she needs my consent on this* and that is what she began to seek right now.
> So she knows that this all hinges on my decision and we both know that we need to sit down and discuss it thru and for me to meet the guy and see what he’s all about.
> I’m just so drained by all this and don’t know what decision will b best for my kids. It pains and scares me....


I'm sorry, what? Your divorce is finalized, yes? If so, she absolutely does *not* need your consent to remarry. What she is doing is asking your blessing. Not the same thing at all. And, frankly, she's kind to do so. Most divorced folk who remarry *inform* their ex and co-parent that they are marrying. She is free to marry if she so pleases and the court would only get involved if there was reason to such as he has a criminal past or has been abusive. Barring those, there really isn't a damn thing you can do but give an honest opinion of this mans character and step back to see what she decides.


----------



## MattMatt

Convict said:


> Thank you both.
> I was here a few years ago when my wife was divorcing me. I've had my ups and downs ever since.....but for the most part I bounced back and started living my new life to the fullest.
> My two kids, both are boys, one is 11 and the other is 8, live with my x.
> We have a working relationship that revolves primarily around the kids, and I get to see my kids every weekend.
> When I was posting here on this thread a few years ago, I always mentioned that the most important thing now in my entire life is my kids.
> And the kids and I have been just super throughout the post-divorce years and enjoy our times together more than ever.
> NOW, my X wants to remarry. I have absolutely no residual feelings for her....so I am in no way jealous or emotionally distressed by the fact that she wants to marry a new man.
> What concerns me is my kids.
> She is asking for my permission to be able to remarry this guy and allow my kids to continue living with her, and have this new man in her - and their - lives.
> I know that the new husband will NEVER replace me as the father of my kids. I know that. He even appears to be a nice kind of guy....
> I also know at this young age that my kids are better off living with their mother....
> BUT introducing this new element of a stranger living with them is what is now distressing me.
> I only want whats best for my kids....and I dont know if I should approve of this arrangement, or if I should tell her that I am opposed to my kids living with a stranger.
> I have been through a lot since my divorce....but my only weak spot is when it comes to my kids.
> I dont know if I can accept the CONCEPT of my kids living with another man....and I am still not sure if THIS MAN is suitable to live with my kids if ever I accept the concept to begin with.
> I've been very distressed and aimless for the past few days since this issue came up....and my thoughts are confused as hell.
> I came here to TAM during my darkest hour when my wife was divorcing me....and this was the place I can only come back to for some additional support with this issue I am facing now.


Check his name out on the Sex Offenders Register. 

Make sure your wife is aware of boundaries. For example, adoption of your children by the new man is out, plus could you seek amended custody with more time for you and your children to spend time together?


----------



## LTCNurse

nnoodle said:


> John1024 & Eyesopen,
> 
> 
> 
> For me, the failure of my husband to engage emotionally in our marriage and family life has been a breaking of trust, not just "death by a thousand cut".
> 
> I don't trust him to be there for me. I don't trust him to emotionally be supportive in tough times. I have never been able to lean on him. I don't trust him to be a good friend to me. I don't trust him to take care of the kids in a way that will help them grow into happy, emotionally healthy adults.
> .



THIS. It's about trust. If she is watching you do these things NOW that she wanted over the period of time of "a thousand cuts", it confirms the belief that you could have done it if you cared enough. I'm sorry, I'm sure that comment hurts though I'm just a stranger on a website but I do care. I don't believe there is any coming back from this. Keep being the man you want to be, know you should be. Find a support system for your pain (counseling, here, reading recommended books) and focus also on the children. The children didn't ask to be here but they ARE here and hurting. I don't believe she was/is cheating. If you want to prevent future pain for yourself, now is the time to focus on the pain of the children. You will die inside at their choice of spouses if you don't become the Father they need. Your role is so, so important to their development. If you have girls, treat them like princesss. I don't mean giving them everything they want, I mean affirm their worth to you by being an attentive Father. You are their male role model and how you treat them, how you show you value them and how you show they have value, how you listen to them, these are the years to do this. If you think this divorce hurts, wait until you watch your children enter their teens and 20's and they act out their hurt of not being valued by the most important male in their lives. Wait until they pick a partner and you have too watch the hurt they endur because they didn't know how to pick a worthy partner because they never had worthy actions modeled for them. This will break your heart. Mourn your loss outside of their presence and, of course, do it in healthy ways. When they are there with you, focus on their development. How do you react when they win? How do you react when they lose? How do you react when they want you to listen? How do you react to other people in their presence? Even if they resent you for the marriage, they are still "imprinted" on you and hang on your every word and action. You are the only father (besides Heavenly if you are a believer) they have and they need you more than anything. Don't be that 50+ year old father with regrets. I've watched this in real life.


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