# Something seems "off" about my spouse's relationship with her coworker



## Rawr (Oct 4, 2011)

Ok, so I have never really been one to post on a forum, so please bear with me.

Short background, I have been lurking on this message board, reading various threads on how to get more sex from my wife of 10+ years. I have read everything on the "manning up" and related topics. So far, so good (i.e. a six fold increase in amount of sex for the last month).

Everything has seemed to be very very good in my marriage, aside from one particular thing. Recently, my wife informed me that she was meeting a married male coworker for happy hour. 

Happy hour conflicted with my work. She knew that I could not make it to happy hour, but gave me a token invite none the less. Male coworker's spouse was not able to attend either.

I was not happy about this happy hour meeting, as it just seemed to close to a "date" between my wife and the coworker. Due to my uneasiness, I arranged to leave work early, so that I could surprise my wife at this happy hour get together. I told no one of these plans, aside from my immediate supervisor, who gave me the go ahead to leave work early.

Wife text messages me midday to let me know that she decided not to go to happy hour after all (she decided to meet her parents for dinner, instead).

Suffice to say, I was somewhat relieved that she decided not to go to this happy hour meeting with her coworker. When I inquired as to why she did not go, she said she just decided to "blow him off" (not the usual word choice my wife would have used). 

During this brief conversation, she did mention that she has met this coworker, alone, for coffee. Up until this point, she had not mentioned these coffee meetings to me. Suffice to say, I became rather uneasy, yet again, but kept my cool.

Since I have been reading this message board for a few weeks now, I knew to check my wife's phone (android) for texts, check email accounts, and check her facebook, to see if I could obtain any additional information pertaining to this friendship.

FYI, my wife communicates incessantly with her female friends via facebook, email, and texts. What strikes me as odd, is that my wife has no record of any text or email contact with this particular male coworker. I know my wife well enough to know that she would have a text record/email record of correspondence with this coworker pertaining to these lunch time coffee meetings. There is literally no communication between the two on my wife's phone or in her email. I have yet to figure out her facebook password, but will try to crack that password tonight.

Also, FYI: My wife has no idea that I have have checked her email accounts or cell phone.

At a minimum, I believe that my wife is crossing a boundary by having these little lunch meetings with this coworker. The absence of any communication between the two is a red flag (i.e. I believe that she may be deleting record of communication).

I am hoping that someone can shed some insight on my situation, and how I should approach her regarding these meetings. I do have some insecurity issues, so I am hoping it is simply insecurity (though I am not holding my breath).

Reading up on the EA's, I am thinking that this may be just such an EA, but am wondering what others think.

Thanks in advance for your help.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

While on the face of it, it seems that there may indeed be nothing going on, I fully understand your feelings of uneasiness.

Perhaps you should have a serious heart-to-heart talk with your W about him and boundaries, and see how things are later on-look for suspicious activities. She may simply not realize that she could be vulnerable to an EA. Many spouses don't see the extremely subtle signs, and then they go and do something that destroys their lives and those around them later on.

I think that it's good that you are in sync with this, and you may very well be nipping what could easily turn into a disaster in the bud.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I would say nothing while conducting surveillance. Given that you think she is hiding info from you by erasing messages, you have reason to be suspicious and to gather intel.

Talking with her will reveal nothing truthful, or at least nothing believable. She'll deny everything. You won't know if that is the truth or not.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

This can be looked at another way---your wife works with the guy everyday---she talks to him face to face---they can set up anything they want and you may never know about it-----she may have canceled the drinking date, cuz she thought you might be up to something, in re:what she is doing

You need to figure out another way to moniter her while she is at work, and at lunch, on break---those lunches could be a lot more physical than you will ever know

Did you happen to forget---prior to all these electronics, people DID speak to each other face to face----

Just look for changed patterns, and if the increase in sex is one of them, she could just be doing what she must to keep you SATISFIED , and keep you from investigating---continue to look for changes in her everyday demeanor, and lifestyle


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Keylogger on the computer. What kind of phone does she have? You've checked phone records. 

Why did you not tell her a drinking date with another man is wrong on all accounts especially with a coworker?

I would have flipped on her?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Thor said:


> I would say nothing while conducting surveillance. Given that you think she is hiding info from you by erasing messages, you have reason to be suspicious and to gather intel.
> 
> Talking with her will reveal nothing truthful, or at least nothing believable. She'll deny everything. You won't know if that is the truth or not.


I`m with Thor.

This isn`t acceptable, and since she began it with the coffee dates without telling you I`d hold off on any confrontation until I had a decent idea just how far it`s gone on.

I wouldn`t wait too long because it seems you might have caught this one early.

Just long enough to satisfy your curiosity.


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## Rawr (Oct 4, 2011)

I am afraid I came off as a bit controlling in my initial post. I assure everyone that I am not (I have been too timid to set boundaries in the past).

The reason this situation seems off is that my wife does have male friends, and is generally very good about making sure that I know each of them. This one individual, however, she is "too quiet" about. 

Under normal circumstances, if she was good enough friends with a person to arrange a coffee meeting for lunch, I would have heard about the entirety of their meeting. In this instance, she did not even mention these meetings for coffee until days after said meetings occurred.

Also, they do not work in the same office location, so meetings for coffee are prearranged somehow. 

I honestly hope that I am reading too much into this situation, but something just does not feel right. I seriously hope that I am being an idiot and that there is nothing to worry about.

Also, she is currently out of the state on business, so I am just going to have to talk to her directly when she returns.


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## Locard (May 26, 2011)

I just don't get the married adult freinds of the opposite sex thing, at least where there is alone time.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Rawr said:


> Also, she is currently out of the state on business, so I am just going to have to talk to her directly when she returns.



That`s really scary considering your suspicions.

I couldn`t handle that.


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## YupItsMe (Sep 29, 2011)

Rawr said:


> I am afraid I came off as a bit controlling in my initial post.


No you didnt at all. :smthumbup: Do what must be done

Here is a thread on opposite gender freindships and boundaries that may shed some light on your situation. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...lags-spouses-opposite-gender-friendships.html


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Controlling is the word spouses use when they are up to something. Having boundaries is not controlling. Keeping secrets is controlling. If a spouse over steps boundaries, which is their perogative, other spouse has right to reject that person actions. Of course it means you have to have the backbone to stand up for yourself.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

Ooooo. Ouch.

Hopefully this isn't too late.

I personally think she's sending smoke signals to get your attention. Wouldn't be a bad idea to have that chat someone mentioned. Think about it. Have some secret coffee dates that you didn't find out about until after the botched happy hour.

I think it was a great way for her to open the conversation indirectly.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

He rawr---you have allowed your wife way too much latitude for a married woman

Yes married woman have male friends, but on a very low, platonic level, and they have maybe a few---THEY DO NOT RUN AROUND HAVING DATES WITH MALE FRIENDS----OR DID YOU BOTH FORGET---SHE IS MARRIED

If you do not treat this harshly, and you need to, whether you like it/want to or not---your mge., will become a statistic

You say your wife is out of town on business for a few days---how do you know for sure what she is doing while out of town----I PROMISE you those out of town business trips where one spouse only is away---are DEADLY to marriages.

You need to set down some some strict boundaries, YESTERDAY

Your wife already knows how to connive, plan, manipulate, coerce, decieve, and lie, by ommission---she ain't the innocent little goody 2shoes you think she is

I may sound jaded and harsh---but what I am telling you is the way it is, and everyone here KNOWS IT.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Thor said:


> I would say nothing while conducting surveillance. Given that you think she is hiding info from you by erasing messages, you have reason to be suspicious and to gather intel.
> 
> Talking with her will reveal nothing truthful, or at least nothing believable. She'll deny everything. You won't know if that is the truth or not.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I 100% agree with Locard. Opposite sex friends by yourself while married is a bad ending waiting to happen. Happened to me, even after 18 years of nothing going on. Eventually, given enough time, it will.


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## Rawr (Oct 4, 2011)

I don't care for her travel. Thankfully, I am privy to her work schedule, and her work schedule is so hectic that travel times seem to be safer.

Also, her coworker's position in the company is such that he does not travel for business. Honestly, that and this person's first name are the only bits of information that I have been able to find out.

I am thinking, since she is on business, I do have some time to do the VAR thing in her car before she returns. Based upon what I have read, it seems to be one other tactic I can use to confirm suspicions or put my concern to rest.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Oh yeah, and dude, call her while she is out of town, like tonight. Tell her you miss her, and you are concerned given what she told you. Be honest and open. You have nothing to lose by doing so.


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## Rawr (Oct 4, 2011)

I do appreciate the replies so far.

Gabriel, I do believe that your advice is the most sound, given my current concerns. Thank you.


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## cb45 (Oct 2, 2009)

Dadof3 said:


> Ooooo. Ouch.
> 
> Hopefully this isn't too late.
> 
> ...


inclined to say :iagree: with dadof3
here but with another "twist" of sorts.

that is, subconciously H/W's put out signals when somethings
"brewing" (no coffee pun intended...lol) that even THEY may
not be aware of, or if so, still comes to the surface as truth
(eventually) often does, with or without their conscious consent.

this is the "off" we often pickup on.

also, methinks if u know yer W as well as u should, then her
"blow him off" stmt is quite suspicious/perplexing to say the least. 

if u have a real grip on where yer rel'shp with yer W was at/is at/can be (at) then....best to talk it out with boundary advice
others have mentioned.

but if u are kidding yerself, or have uneasy feelings that things
may have "changed" then i'd go undercover brother for awhile
till u know for sure, o/wise u may never get to the truth as she'll put up good defenses (for awhile anyway) and eventually
the negativity that "brews" btwn u two will become a self
fulfilling prophecy in yer initial "gut feelings" re: ''off" etc.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

JMO, based on mistakes I made: Do not have that open and honest talk with her. You need stealth, unfortunately.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Arnold said:


> JMO, based on mistakes I made: Do not have that open and honest talk with her. You need stealth, unfortunately.


Seems we all have to learn the hard way.

:scratchhead:


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

I wonder how your wife would feel if you were meeting up with a female co-worker for drinks at a bar? I doubt she would be happy. The bottom line is that this is a date.


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## Rawr (Oct 4, 2011)

The additional stealth vs. frank conversation is really what I am waffling on (not that they have to be mutually exclusive).

I really want to nip this thing in the bud before anything more comes of it. I do not want to sit idly by and let whatever this is progress unchecked. At the same time, I do not want to make a situation out of nothing.

At this point, I am just as confused as I have been for the last couple of days. I suppose I will just talk to her directly, and continue to monitor at the same time.


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## Rawr (Oct 4, 2011)

bryanp said:


> I wonder how your wife would feel if you were meeting up with a female co-worker for drinks at a bar? I doubt she would be happy. The bottom line is that this is a date.


This is a good point, and part of what has me thrown off by the situation. She knows full well that I would never do this to her (nor have I ever done so).

I suppose I can frame my pending "boundaries" discussion with her in this manner. Does this seem advisable, or would it put her immediately on the defensive? I want to be able to discuss the boundaries thing without it saying anything to lose control of the discussion.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Rawr said:


> At this point, I am just as confused as I have been for the last couple of days. I suppose I will just talk to her directly, and continue to monitor at the same time.



The problem with this path is that if she is up to no good she`ll be nearly impossible to monitor AFTER you`ve had your open, honest discussion.

She`ll know for sure you`re on to her and she`ll take it deep underground and apparently her work environment will make this easy to do.

The logical thing to my mind is to spend a week or so monitoring her hard without her knowledge and if you find nothing beyond what you`ve already found then have that discussion with her.

If she is having an affair then a couple of days with a VAR in her car is probably going to bust her.

The possible down side to this is if she catches you monitoring her and you`ve found nothing.
She`ll be pissed.

However you`ve already got justification for your actions just by what she`s admittedly done.

If you do have the discussion with her before monitoring please pay attention to how she acts afterward.
If she`s more intimate, sexual, loving, caring then that is a sign she`s trying to manipulate you into a false sense of security.


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## cb45 (Oct 2, 2009)

*i get a kick outta this boundary talk being so liberal or laddie-dah, that people actually believe u have to tell yer mate what
they already know (in 99% of cases) to be wrong, iffy, suspicious, dangerous, u name it/yer adjective.

u know. i know. its simple. if we are uncomfortable, secretive,
fudging (or white-lying) about something, then its plain ol' vanilla WRONG !!!!!!!!!!

boundaries are for gray areas u havent discussed back in the early yrs where both are figuring stuff out. usually after 5yrs
u've covered everything...just about.*


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## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

Arnold said:


> JMO, based on mistakes I made: Do not have that open and honest talk with her. You need stealth, unfortunately.


:iagree:

Yeah. It's hard not to be open and honest when that's your nature. Please trust me; suck it up. You'll never have proof of anything if you discuss "feelings" too early. Stealth is the way. If there is nothing to find, what is the downside??


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

cb45 said:


> *i get a kick outta this boundary talk being so liberal or laddie-dah, that people actually believe u have to tell yer mate what
> they already know (in 99% of cases) to be wrong, iffy, suspicious, dangerous, u name it/yer adjective.*


*


The problem usually isn`t that the spouse isn`t aware of the boundaries because as you say they usually are.

The problem is when the spouse over steps those boundaries and the betrayed spouse doesn`t enforce them.

This happens all the time, just browse through the CWI forum and you`ll see it`s the basis for almost every affair.*


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## Rawr (Oct 4, 2011)

She is aware of boundaries, but is overstepping. She knows that she is overstepping, otherwise she would be forthcoming with me about these little meetings. 

Cb45, thanks. That is the kind of tough comment I need. Same with Tacoma.

So, what are your suggestions on how to deal with this, then? I am assuming that I should just call her out, as she has already overstepped. Going to just call her out in person, as I am most comfortable dealing face to face versus over the phone. I am angry about this, as she is being disrespectful at a minimum.

Also, I am going to keep checking on her email, work email, etc. If nothing else, this can serve to reassure me.

I do welcome any additional advice. Especially advice that will help me cut off this bull**** ASAP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Okay let's stop playing games. What are your deal breaker boundaries? Do you have what it takes to enforce them even it means nuking your marriage?


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## Rawr (Oct 4, 2011)

I am an attorney, so I can easily nuke marriage if necessary from a procedural standpoint. Emotional standpoint? No clue. 

That said, PA would cause full nuke. Some sort of EA, Would only nuke if she does not knock this off.

In all honesty, I am not sure how to deal with anything like this, as I have never dealt with anything like this in the 15 years we have been together (dating and marriage). All I want to know is how to cut this off ASAP. Not trying to play any games whatsoever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Ok, it seems that a PA is your deal breaker, as is mine, and that's okay. Has a PA happened? Its hard to tell at this point. Secrecy is the prime ingredient in affairs and it appears that she definitely is hiding her contacts with this coworker. The fact that talk about this OM is absent in all her communications is a definite indication that she's deleted them and is trying to cover her tracks. Where there's smoke, there's always fire.

I can understand your motivation to nip this in the bud before it progresses from an EA to a PA. I would have the talk about boundaries. IF she's in an EA, she would definitely taking it underground via secret email accounts and/or disposable affair phones. If she isn't yet in an EA, then she should abide by these common sense boundaries. Whatever the case, you'll have to verify thru various methods like keyloggers/VARs.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Ok then. You have to begin to accept and make peace with the reality that all things eventually come to an end -even marriages - and please no lip service saying that you do. It doesn't matter whether it is one year or 40 years of marriage.

Start by talking with your wife and conveying to her in a *calm, quiet and respectful fashion* the following:

*I married you because I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you. But I will not be made a fool of if you are betraying me with another man and expect me to take it. I've got to much self respect to allow this. I deserve and demand honesty from you.*

Melodramatice? Perhaps but nevertheless it is the truth and you know it.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Install GPS on android phone to track her movement. If detected, say that the app is for recovery of the phone if stolen.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

You cut this off, by getting in her face---but do it with icy calm

You tell her you do not intend to be part of a 3some

You tell her she is a married woman, and to act like one

If she wants to be single, and go on dates with other men---tell her you will accomdate her with a D.

Unfortunately, you need to be harsh about this---being Mr. nice-guy---does not work, and eventually leads to much worse down the road, as the A., or what is becoming an A. remains unchecked

State your piece, then walk away, run some errands, whatever---give her time to digest the fact, that you will not tolerate this kind of activity from her, and if she wants to stay married, she stops associating with other men----END OF DISCUSSION


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Rawr said:


> The additional stealth vs. frank conversation is really what I am waffling on (*not that they have to be mutually exclusive*).



exactly, you should be doing both


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

The more I pour over this story as described by you, the more I realize that something fishy is going on.



Rawr said:


> Suffice to say, I was somewhat relieved that she decided not to go to this happy hour meeting with her coworker. When I inquired as to why she did not go, she said she just decided to "blow him off" (not the usual word choice my wife would have used).


Another possibility is that something came up for OM that he wasn't able to make it so your wife made it appear as if she was the one who decided not to go.



Rawr said:


> During this brief conversation, she did mention that she has met this coworker, alone, for coffee. Up until this point, she had not mentioned these coffee meetings to me. Suffice to say, I became rather uneasy, yet again, but kept my cool.


Multiple meetings just for coffee...hmmmm. How many men do that unless they had other intentions, and how many married women accept such invitations? I certainly don't do that, and if I asked a female coworker out to coffee, they would probably tell me that they are married.



Rawr said:


> Since I have been reading this message board for a few weeks now, I knew to check my wife's phone (android) for texts, check email accounts, and check her facebook, to see if I could obtain any additional information pertaining to this friendship.
> 
> FYI, my wife communicates incessantly with her female friends via facebook, email, and texts. What strikes me as odd, is that my wife has no record of any text or email contact with this particular male coworker. I know my wife well enough to know that she would have a text record/email record of correspondence with this coworker pertaining to these lunch time coffee meetings. There is literally no communication between the two on my wife's phone or in her email. I have yet to figure out her facebook password, but will try to crack that password tonight.


And you should get that password ASAP. One possibility though, I've always had my wife's facebook password, and on a whim, I entered her work email account and up popped an unknown account. Also, you may have her email password, but its so easy to obtain another one from yahoo, gmail, hotmail, etc, etc. So a method for keeping up secret communication is the secret email account. 

I would have to say that this situation warrants the installation of computer monitoring software at the very least.


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## Sindo (Oct 29, 2011)

You're going to need more evidence than what you've shown in this thread when you confront her. At this stage, it's very easy for her to gaslight you. I'd go with stealth, for now.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You need to find out details on this guy, in case you need to explode the affair. Find where he lives, his wife's phone #.

Do you know where/went they meet for coffee? This is where a GPS tracker on the phone will help alot - is it an iphone? The find my iphone works great and silently.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Sometimes, if a person is crossing the line outside of marriage, they immediately start to build up some fall back stories with their spouse. Stories that can explain it away, like, "Remember, I told you that I'm just trying to blow him off," when you find out that she, for instance, parked in the parking lot of a store for 30 minutes with him. Instinctlively, we know that going out for coffee with a person of the opposite sex would blow a man away if he had never heard of the guy before. But if you knew that she was doing coffee with him before, and that he is a coworker, then how bad is drinks at happy hour when it comes up? Are you sure that she went to her mother's?

There's another point to consider. What do you know of the culture of her office? I've seen offices where men and women coworkers go out together very commonly. The culture accepts it, and despite your relationship boundaries, it can slide her scale on acceptability. But if her office culture normally shuns even going out for coffee with a person of the opposite sex, then the two of them have no questions about the rightness or wrongness of what they are doing, regardless of your relationship boundaries.

Being very upfront with communication with your wife, and discussing boundaries very specifically, including her thoughts on what she would want you to do in the same situation, is the only way to overcome office culture if it is a marriage killer.

You can't go into a discussion of boundaries with questioning yourself. You know what is right and wrong, and no matter what she says, she knew this about you when she married you. People who are vulnerable to an EA very likely sense this uneasiness and capitalize on it.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Rawr said:


> I do not want to make a situation out of nothing.


You've lost your mind if you think this is nothing.
If you care about your marriage, one of the rules you should be living by is no dating.
You should really put your foot down here, open and honest and make it clear that you would easily take divorce over her having friendships with other men. No emotion, just a policy you have.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

I think this is one of the toughest stages in this whole infidelity ordeal, the "not sure " stage. Many of us have been through this and it is torture.
Not only are you unsure about what is going on, but there are advantages and disadvantages to either way of appraoching the investigation: Say something and risk it going underground, making detection much more difficult; or play your cards close to the vest and risk the affair progressing to a stage beyond whiich reconciliation is impossible.
With the first method, you risk never getting the truth. With the second, you risk your wife going physical.
Tell you what I did, my fellow lawyer. In my practice, I use several PI's. I ran everything I had found by him. These guys have seen this stuff a lot. So, I layed(or is it laid) it out for him, what I had found. 
Right away, he knew what was going on, but told me to wait, and hewould have proof in no time. And, he did.
Why not consult one of these guys, a good one and get his recommendation?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

IMO the timeline doesn't have to be real long on the surveillance. Get a keylogger on her computer and, if possible, a phone text message logger. You may be able to recover erased texts off of her phone.

Then have a non-accusatory talk with her. If she is not in an affair, or if she is unaware that she is getting weak with her boundaries with this other man, you have a chance to set things straight with her. Accusing her of an affair without proof can be counterproductive.

After a week or two you should have good intel from her computer and phone which will confirm what kind of relationship she has with this man. Then you can confront her with a more accusatory tone if she is in a truly inappropriate emotional but not physical relationship.

Don't make the mistake I did. Don't let her know of your suspicions or worries until you have completed installation of surveillance. I unintentionally let something out of the bag which made my wife aware of a year's worth of emails of hers which were hidden but still available. She promptly nuked them and I will never know what was in them.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Not bad advice by Thor: Prime the pump with the non-accusatory discussion. Then monitor to see about the communication with the co-worker.

I noticed after I first inquired of my wife, why I found Lingerie in her backpack, there was a flurry of texting and phone calling, I did not see it at the time, but when I got her phone records in discovery, it showed this.


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## WhoIsIt (Dec 28, 2010)

I don't have the experience of a lot of you on this board, but I can say with 100% confidence that I've had lunch and coffee meetings with female co-workers that (a) were completely about work and (b) I never bothered to tell my wife about.

Maybe I'm just an exceptional man, but given zero sexual chemistry and a shared interest in the work at hand, it's quite possible for this to be benign.

Am I the only one who thinks the fact that she told OP about the coffee meetings at all is a good sign? What possible good could come from mentioning them if she knows they were wrong and if she's trying to hide an affair?


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

That is a good point. I wondered that too.

But, for some strange reason, there seem to be lots of little inconsistencies in these scenarios, things that still do not make sense even after the affairs are confirmed.
I've read stories where the cheater specifically mentions things like this, gratutiously, because it sets the stage for explaining away evidence that she feels may come to light , somehow, in the near future. 
But, you are right, on its face, it does not make sense that she mentioned these meetings if there was something going on.
I think this confusion stage is exactly why it is best to go into stealth mode and continue monitoring.
The cheater's behavior is often somewhat hard to figure out. My wife, once, came home at 2 in the morning and, out of the blue, proceeded to tell me all about the physique of a guy who she had given a ride home from the bar.
I wonderd why on earth she would incriminate herself like this. I had two theories. One, she was sadistically taunting me to provoke me inot something so she could calim victimhood.
Or, two, a she suspected that she had been seen and it might get back to me. So, she was preemptively disclosing so as to appear innocent should I find out.
In retrospect, i am still not sure. But, the affairs were , eventually, confirmed.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

WhoIsIt said:


> Am I the only one who thinks the fact that she told OP about the coffee meetings at all is a good sign? What possible good could come from mentioning them if she knows they were wrong and if she's trying to hide an affair?


Its called fitness testing. You see this is a lot of wayward stories, where they would tell their spouse little things, and when the spouse doesn't respond, will say that their spouse didn't care. When the reality is that the spouse (usually the husband) doesn't say anything out of fear of being labeled as the jealous/controlling husband. Then the wayward sees this as the green light to proceed farther.

The ole "well, I mentioned this and that and he acted like he didn't care".


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## WhoIsIt (Dec 28, 2010)

I should add that I wouldn't be entirely comfortable in this situation either. The happy hour "date" is strange, to say the least, especially if you've never heard of the guy before. I would definitely keep monitoring things the best you can, but I wouldn't immediately assume she's having an affair. Well...not unless she's had one before.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

Whoisit: I think generally you are correct - in and of itself, coffee meeting(s) may be innocent. 

But there is where Rawr's story diverges:
1 - She tells hubby about them AFTER a happy hour drinks date was canceled when he made an effort to surprise her by making it, which all in all where boundary crosses for most married people. 

2 - When a person's "cheatin'" radar goes off - its usually an automated response when we sense our mate is being predated by another. He needs to check this out.

On the frank conversation side - this is my opinion is just a follow-up to her revelations. I would preface it with a - "I was just thinking about what you told me the other day, and I'm probably just a bit slow but could you give me some background behind these meetings? I'm really glad you mentioned them and now that I think about it, I thought you might be trying to share some concerns with me regarding this person who you had to "blow off". Please help me understand.

Or something along those lines.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Fitness Testing threads:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/34821-fitness-test.html


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## winniecooper (Nov 16, 2011)

Hi Rawr. I am going to comment on your OP and then mention what I think you should do. Again, I have never had to deal with a full blown affair so my perspective is just one of many. 

You posted:

*"Short background, I have been lurking on this message board, reading various threads on how to get more sex from my wife of 10+ years. I have read everything on the "manning up" and related topics. So far, so good (i.e. a six fold increase in amount of sex for the last month)."*

Welcome to the boards and congrats on making your marriage priority one. 

*"Everything has seemed to be very very good in my marriage, aside from one particular thing. Recently, my wife informed me that she was meeting a married male coworker for happy hour." *

Lets stop right here. This is inappropriate behavior for both your wife and the married OM. It may very well be completely innocent, but by meeting alone like this, they are actively creating circumstances that could very well lead to infidelity. You and your wife need to establish some clear boundaries regarding friendships with members of the opposite sex. May I encourage you to not lose hope yet, but to take this opportunity to strengthen the mutual trust you have with your wife. Don't just blindly trust each other. You need to be ready to defend what is something that is only shared between yourself and your wife: your marriage. 

Your feelings of insecurity and concern are justified. You're not crazy. You love your wife and you do not want another man intruding into your marriage. But you need to behave like an adult and handle this carefully. If you let your emotions cloud your judgment, you'll make bad decisions that could erode the bond of trust you have between each other. 

*"Happy hour conflicted with my work. She knew that I could not make it to happy hour, but gave me a token invite none the less. Male coworker's spouse was not able to attend either."*

Again, it's inappropriate for you and the OM's spouse to be absent from this meeting. Keep in mind, this dude's marriage may be on the outs and he may be seeking another to have an affair with. Again, do not trust this guy; try and trust your wife's intentions as being innocent thus far. Your wife should not trust this guy because he may be using her for something he has no right to have. 

*"I was not happy about this happy hour meeting, as it just seemed to close to a "date" between my wife and the coworker. Due to my uneasiness, I arranged to leave work early, so that I could surprise my wife at this happy hour get together. I told no one of these plans, aside from my immediate supervisor, who gave me the go ahead to leave work early."*

I think you were wise to go and drop in on them to get a feel for what the context of the relationship is. 

*"Wife text messages me midday to let me know that she decided not to go to happy hour after all (she decided to meet her parents for dinner, instead).

Suffice to say, I was somewhat relieved that she decided not to go to this happy hour meeting with her coworker. When I inquired as to why she did not go, she said she just decided to "blow him off" (not the usual word choice my wife would have used)."
*
She may have not wanted to be around him after all. Because they would have been without each other's spouses in a bar setting, she may have been uncomfortable in such a situation. I wouldn't read into this act as deception quite yet. 

*"During this brief conversation, she did mention that she has met this coworker, alone, for coffee. Up until this point, she had not mentioned these coffee meetings to me. Suffice to say, I became rather uneasy, yet again, but kept my cool."*

At least she was honest and told you about the meetings. That is to her credit. She may have acted naively and not thought things through about the inappropriateness of such a meeting. This is the start of open communication. Keep the communication open and honest. If you retaliate out of anger, she may feel like she cannot tell you such things in the future, which is the primer for future infidelity. 

*"Since I have been reading this message board for a few weeks now, I knew to check my wife's phone (android) for texts, check email accounts, and check her facebook, to see if I could obtain any additional information pertaining to this friendship.

FYI, my wife communicates incessantly with her female friends via facebook, email, and texts. What strikes me as odd, is that my wife has no record of any text or email contact with this particular male coworker. I know my wife well enough to know that she would have a text record/email record of correspondence with this coworker pertaining to these lunch time coffee meetings. There is literally no communication between the two on my wife's phone or in her email. I have yet to figure out her facebook password, but will try to crack that password tonight.

Also, FYI: My wife has no idea that I have have checked her email accounts or cell phone."
*

Hold, up. Has your wife given you permission to look into her personal accounts in this manner? If not, you may be violating her trust, especially if she has never done anything to merit you to think she has been unfaithful to you. Think about it, if she suspected you of infidelity when you were not doing anything wrong and she snooped on you behind your back, would you be hurt? Be careful with this tactic. She also may not have emails/texts from this guy because, as others have stated, she may be setting up these meetings face to face while at work. 

*"At a minimum, I believe that my wife is crossing a boundary by having these little lunch meetings with this coworker. The absence of any communication between the two is a red flag (i.e. I believe that she may be deleting record of communication)."*

Yes, she is crossing a boundary with her behavior with this man. But, have you two ever sat down and talked about what your boundaries actually are? Have you said what each of you thinks is inappropriate with regard to the friendships with the opposite sex, not in a blaming way, but in an honest soul-bearing way that shows you deeply care about her and your commitment to each other? If you haven't done this you can't fault her for something she may not have ever even considered to be hurtful to you. Again, trust that her intentions are not to deceive you until she shows you that she can't be trusted. 

You two have an excellent opportunity to establish some clear boundaries for each other. Work on those now before it's to late. And if you can't reach a calm consensus, seek mediation on these matters with a marriage counselor. You may find that there are other issues between you and her that need to be worked through so that neither of you feel tempted to engage in an affair. 

*"I am hoping that someone can shed some insight on my situation, and how I should approach her regarding these meetings. I do have some insecurity issues, so I am hoping it is simply insecurity (though I am not holding my breath).

Reading up on the EA's, I am thinking that this may be just such an EA, but am wondering what others think.

Thanks in advance for your help."*

Okay, so let's recap this:

1. Your wife's friendship with the married other man has become inappropriate. Period. But, she may not in fact be engaged in an EA yet. 

This is the tricky part because you don't want to over react and have her resent you for oppressing her ability to have friends. 

You need to bring this up the next time you are face to face. You need to keep calm and present what you are concerned with. Write it down so you can keep you head straight. You may become very upset when you talk about this. Don't start pointing fingers and blaming her. Let her take in what you are saying and let her respond, but watch to see how she reacts. She may be defensive at first, but it may be because she is hurt that you would think she is "cheating". 

If she is willing to give you her passwords to all her social accounts/phone logs/texts and if she is willing to stop seeing this guy and keep the relationship in a professional context only (no outside work meetings, period) than take that as a sign that she is trustworthy. If not, then you may have reason to distrust her. Again, start from the point of trusting her and not trusting the other man. 

What ever you do, do not accuse her of having an affair (because she may not be having one). Tell her you trust her, but you feel her friendship with this guy is testing that trust and you want reassurance that she can be trusted. Write down what is bothering you and how you feel about it and keep this with you when you present your concern. You will be emotional and you need to have a clear guide as to how to communicate what you're going through. Remember, your motivation for telling her this is to not prove her guilt, it is to establish open an open and healthy dialogue regarding this potentially destructive friendship. Keep calm and be honest. She will respect your perspective more if you handle this like an adult. 

That's what having clear, mutual boundaries that apply to both parties does. It's more than words and it shows that you two are in fact loyal to your marriage covenant. 

2. You're hurt by this because you love your wife and do not want to lose her to another man. You have every right to be concerned. 

Write down what hurst and why. You don't have to show her, but this is more so you can clear your head and think and act like a mature adult. Trust me, you do not want your emotions to get the best of you because if you act like a jerk to her when presenting your case, you could drive a wedge between you two. 

3. Right now you say everything is great in your marriage. But you need to take this opportunity as a way to ask her if there is anything that she is holding back from you with respect to your relationship dynamics. You need to ask her if there are things that you do that are keeping her from feeling emotionally secure and protected in your marriage. Again, try and keep calm if she says something that hurts. The truth hurts sometimes. You both want to learn and grow closer together from this. 

4. You could meet this guy in person and see if there's any chemistry between him and your wife. If you're comfortable doing this, I would suggest you ask your wife to have him set up a double date between to include the OM's spouse. If not, that's fine to. 

5. If your wife has never, ever done anything to make you think she has a wayward heart:

You need trust what she is saying and not prejudice her actions or words as guilty. She may very well have had no clue that this friendship has the makings of becoming destructive. And depending on how you approach her, she may become defensive because she feels she is not doing anything unfaithful. 

That's the tricky part regarding EA's. The involved parties may not see it as infidelity because it's not "sexual" in nature. Don't force your perception of this on her; be reasonable and explain why your are concerned in a loving and respectful manner. 

You both need to look at the circumstances from this rationale:

Would she be hurt or concerned if you were meeting for coffee or going to happy our alone with a female co-worker? The fact that either party is married or not does not matter. 

Present this perspective to her and let her decide how it affects her. 

Lastly, concerning the OM:

He's wrong for seeking such an intimate friendship with another woman apart from his wife. This man need's a wake up call because he's heading down the wrong path. Ask your wife how she thinks the OM's wife would feel if her husband was alone and meeting up with a female coworker in a bar for drinks. 

Don't give up hope! Fight for your wife and show her that she means everything to you! Respect her perspective but help her understand why you are hurt by this. 

Set up some clear boundaries that you both feel comfortable with and that you both can maintain without feeling like you're being controlled or oppressed by the other. 

Be transparent with each other regarding social mediums of communication. You need to apologize to her if you went behind her back to dig through her personal data. Take this opportunity to become closer and more intimate with your wife. By handling this with honest concern and love (not crazy suspicious actions) she will admire you that much more. 

Best of luck!


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## winniecooper (Nov 16, 2011)

Dadof3 said:


> Whoisit: I think generally you are correct - in and of itself, coffee meeting(s) may be innocent.
> 
> But there is where Rawr's story diverges:
> 1 - She tells hubby about them AFTER a happy hour drinks date was canceled when he made an effort to surprise her by making it, which all in all where boundary crosses for most married people.
> ...


This is an awesome angle. Mainly because if the OM is a douche looking to use the OP's wife in a selfish way, the OP can open up a dialogue by showing that he wants to protect his wife from being taken advantage of. 

:smthumbup:


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

winniecooper said:


> This is an awesome angle. Mainly because if the OM is a douche looking to use the OP's wife in a selfish way, the OP can open up a dialogue by showing that he wants to protect his wife from being taken advantage of.
> 
> :smthumbup:


:iagree::iagree:


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

WhoIsIt said:


> I don't have the experience of a lot of you on this board, but I can say with 100% confidence that I've had lunch and coffee meetings with female co-workers that (a) were completely about work and (b) I never bothered to tell my wife about.
> 
> Maybe I'm just an exceptional man, but given zero sexual chemistry and a shared interest in the work at hand, it's quite possible for this to be benign.
> 
> Am I the only one who thinks the fact that she told OP about the coffee meetings at all is a good sign? What possible good could come from mentioning them if she knows they were wrong and if she's trying to hide an affair?


I suggest telling your wife about the multiple coffee outings and see how she feels about it. Also, No chemistry no does not equal no chemistry later. I still don't understand why people don't get that.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

I'd stop mindf*cking myself analyzing why the W is doing what shes doing, and saying what shes saying and listen to my gut, if you feel something is wrong, it is.... Follow your instincts. 

Do not _talk yourself_ into or out of anything and do not give her the opportunity to talk you into or out of anything. 

Shut down all dialogue until you verify why your internal 'smoke alarm' is going off. If there is no fire, then you decide where to go from there.


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## LostCPA (Apr 15, 2011)

If something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. Trust your gut feelings.

I would you snoop, snoop, snoop. Also, opposite sex friends are never a good idea if they are not friends of both. I have a number of couples that I consider friends, but I would never go out alone with any of the females. No reason to open the door to temptation.

I suggest you and your wife need to set some firm boundaries that protect your marriage. Affairs happen because of loose boundaries.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

LostCPA said:


> If something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. Trust your gut feelings.
> 
> I would you snoop, snoop, snoop. Also, opposite sex friends are never a good idea if they are not friends of both. I have a number of couples that I consider friends, but I would never go out alone with any of the females. No reason to open the door to temptation.
> 
> I suggest you and your wife need to set some firm boundaries that protect your marriage. Affairs happen because of loose boundaries.


 and if I could add to what LostCPA says - misplaced / misguided trust. 

TRUST BUT VERIFY


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Can only echo the previous posters. Your gut feeling is there for a reason.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

You are right to be suspicious. Keylogger will give you an idea of if she has a secret account that she is using to stay in touch with OM. Chances are good that they agree face to face about how to connect and keep in touch so there is no electronic trace. Is there a possibility that there's a second phone? Could you put a voice recorder in her car or something? Keep things quiet while investigating and do not confront her about anything until you have an idea of what is happening without her lies to influence you.


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## sukkah (Nov 18, 2011)

I'm currently going through this same type of crap myself. I checked our data plan on our cell phone bills. There was a number that I didn't recognize that showed up an extremely lot of times and at late hours on the weekend. After I called the number, I found out that it was a guy from work - got his name from voice mail greeting. Next day, no texts or calls between them. I start to feel better about it. Decided to check her email accounts. Found one email hidden in a folder from the guy on there, but nothing incriminating. Checked another email account, and bingo - found a poem that she wrote to the guy sent to him prior to our discussion talking about her feelings for him. After that, I also read a message string back and forth between the 2 with it ending saying that she's glad that I hadn't asked about what was going on between the 2 because she didn't like lying about her feelings for him. Luckily I caught it and copied it to print later, because she deleted it right after. I know that there are keyloggers, and ways to recoup deleted text messages, too, but I haven't resorted to that. I used the info I had gathered to bust things up. Take charge here, and don't sit and wait for evidence to fall into your lap. They will get messy and screw up eventually. You just have to be there to capture it.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

WhoIsIt said:


> I don't have the experience of a lot of you on this board, but I can say with 100% confidence that I've had lunch and coffee meetings with female co-workers that (a) were completely about work and (b) I never bothered to tell my wife about.
> 
> Maybe I'm just an exceptional man, but given zero sexual chemistry and a shared interest in the work at hand, it's quite possible for this to be benign.
> 
> Am I the only one who thinks the fact that she told OP about the coffee meetings at all is a good sign? What possible good could come from mentioning them if she knows they were wrong and if she's trying to hide an affair?


You are not the exception in this case, I don't think. I meet for coffee all the time, but I do tell my wife about it if it is with a female coworker only. I'm sure that your wife is okay with it, as are many. But if your wife does not know about these meetings over coffee, and wouldn't be comfortable with it if she knew, then it is betraying her trust. 

In the OP's case, it is incredibly unlikely that a woman would marry a man without having a pretty good intuitive sense of what he considers to be right and wrong in these matters. The OP is not completely comfortable, I don't think. This whole underlying tension between the two people that resultsfrom this awareness of something wrong in boundary issues is what we equate to 'having that feeling' that something is going on. Yes, it very well may be benign intentions on her part, but just shouldn't be dismissed, as you said in the later post.


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## WhoIsIt (Dec 28, 2010)

Kobo said:


> I suggest telling your wife about the multiple coffee outings and see how she feels about it. Also, No chemistry no does not equal no chemistry later. I still don't understand why people don't get that.


Oh I get it, Kobo. I'm just saying that people here seem very quick to crucify someone with almost no information. I say this as someone whose wife did develop chemistry with a co-worker that turned inappropriate.

It all depends on the people involved. In this case, the weird part (to me) is that the OP doesn't have any idea who this guy is. My wife would know exactly who I was having lunch or coffee with, and I wouldn't do it if (a) I thought she would be upset, or (b) there was any chance at all of chemistry developing.


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## WhoIsIt (Dec 28, 2010)

Halien said:


> You are not the exception in this case, I don't think. I meet for coffee all the time, but I do tell my wife about it if it is with a female coworker only. I'm sure that your wife is okay with it, as are many. But if your wife does not know about these meetings over coffee, and wouldn't be comfortable with it if she knew, then it is betraying her trust.


I agree completely. I would never hide these things, and if I thought she would have been uncomfortable I would have either asked her beforehand or just not bothered. As soon as it becomes important enough to hide, that's when there's a problem.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

"Wife text messages me midday to let me know that she decided not to go to happy hour after all (she decided to meet her parents for dinner, instead)."



Just curious, did you actually verify she went to her parents and how much time she spent there? She may have became uneasy about signals you were unknowingly sending and blew him off. What a Freudian slip that was!


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

For posters mentioning how innocent meeting for coffe probably is, don't forget the meeting for drinks when the wife KNEW her husband would be at work. He also doesn't know how many times htis has happened.

When a man and a women meet for drinks its a date. 

Sorry for those that think snooping is invading her space but she has blown off the right to be trusted at this point.


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## Rawr (Oct 4, 2011)

Thanks for all of the input on this situation. The only reason the situation strikes me as odd, at all, is that she was not up front about these meetings. She has other guy friends whom she will hang out with, but they are people that are in committed relationships and all of them I have personally known for years. She would never meet any of the other guys without me and/or their significant other present.

One other thing: she would NOT be OK with me meeting a woman for coffee or going to happy hour with a woman alone (not that it would even cross my mind to meet up with someone in this manner). 

Another thing: I have never snooped on her communications before. This is the first instance where I have felt the need to gather additional information. She would, likely, be angry if she found out that I was snooping on her.

I am still leaning toward a direct and face to face conversation over these little meetings. I will demand that these little meetings stop immediately, and I will demand his contact information (home address and phone number). I assume that his wife would appreciate the heads up that her husband is trying to date/dating women from work.

Again, thank you all for the advice on this, and I certainly appreciate any additional advice that anyone has to offer.


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## Rawr (Oct 4, 2011)

One other thing, I did verify that she met her parents for dinner.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Rawr said:


> Thanks for all of the input on this situation. The only reason the situation strikes me as odd, at all, is that she was not up front about these meetings. She has other guy friends whom she will hang out with, but they are people that are in committed relationships and all of them I have personally known for years. She would never meet any of the other guys without me and/or their significant other present.
> 
> One other thing: she would NOT be OK with me meeting a woman for coffee or going to happy hour with a woman alone (not that it would even cross my mind to meet up with someone in this manner).
> 
> ...


Sounds like a plan. When is she due back in town? Keep us posted and Good Luck.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

My gut (against all the other advice) I give only because it seems like you have a good relationship. Things happen sometimes and she maybe "testing" you to see what you would do. 

Nip in in the bud, indirectly, as I advised in an earlier post, yet keep all your options for spying on standby, in case 1+1 keeps adding up to 3 afterwards. 

I think if you handled it in the way I suggested, with the background you provide, maybe well enough to open it up for discussion and also prevent her from getting suspicious that you'll do more, if it warrants. 

Good luck!


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

I'd still be suspicious. It's NOT okay for you to hang out with another female, but PERFECTLY okay for her to hang out with men. That's why she gave you that "token" invitation to happy hour-so that if the issue comes up later with family/friends, she can always say: "Well I invited him, but he didn't show up, so..."

This is beginning to sound like either a fitness test (and, so far, you are getting an "F") or...

She may very well not have cheated, but she may be considering it. In short-she may be fishing.

And the fact that you are a lawyer may have made her go underground with this-she knows what "snoopers" look for. It also may be a case where if there is an OM, he has already coached her not to have ANY electronic (i.e., TRACEABLE) contact, as he got caught before this way. I would seriously hire a PI-this is just not adding up.


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## Bartimaus (Oct 15, 2011)

Rawr said:


> Thanks for all of the input on this situation. The only reason the situation strikes me as odd, at all, is that she was not up front about these meetings. She has other guy friends whom she will hang out with, but they are people that are in committed relationships and all of them I have personally known for years. She would never meet any of the other guys without me and/or their significant other present.
> 
> One other thing: she would NOT be OK with me meeting a woman for coffee or going to happy hour with a woman alone (not that it would even cross my mind to meet up with someone in this manner).
> 
> ...


After what I have went through for many years,call me a sceptic,mental or whatever, I think that in America 90% of married people that meet other married people for coffee,drinks,or whatever,if it's just the two of them and they are meeting 3 or more times like this within a given amount of time,they are either doing things or giving it consideration. This is just my opinion and no statistic to prove it.
OP, I think you are in deep denial. Whether she is cheating or not,you are in denial.
Don't talk to her about this,don't be a fool or a blind Bartimaus.
Here is what you need to decide..if she is cheating,will you divorce her or not? That my friend is the question for you.
If you will divorce her then why in Gods name wouild you want to talk to her about boundaries??? Don't let her know of your suspicions,monitor her and she will prove herself. My WW...the less I monitored her,the more careless she became.


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