# Nice guys do finish last.



## BrokenFrag (Mar 25, 2008)

Well, almost all the paperwork is finished with my wife, and she finally gave me as close to a reason for cheating on me and leaving me as she ever has.

I am too nice a guy. There you have it folks. I am too nice a guy. I was too eager to please, too giving, too loving, too faithful, too trustworthy, too stable, too dependable, too kind. I guess I was also too boring, not driven enough, not confident enough, not sexy enough, not exciting enough.

I made it too easy for her. She never had to work for anything in the relationship or to earn my love, so she never valued the relationship, and didn't value my love. Now she is with a guy who pretends to be a thug, who doesn't mind sleeping with a married woman, who knows what he wants, goes for it even if people get hurt, and she is head over heels in love. He seems like he could be nice enough and not abuse her so he is perfect.
She told me that women don't want a nice guy. They want a guy who can be nice. Loving unconditionally, sacrificing for those that I love, being there for her when she was down and ill was a turn off for her. Sure it was nice to have me around, but it didn't get her motor running, and you can't be in a relationship unless there is attraction.

She told me that confidence is the key to attraction. I asked her how I was supposed to be confident, when she never supported me, never helped me grow, told me I wasn't good enough, wasn't attractive enough, and was too nice. How can you abuse someone for years and then leave them because they lack confidence.

She also doesn't think her affair was anything more than perhaps a bad decision that I now have to deal with. She doesn't believe that it will come back to bite her because she doesn't believe that karma works on a one to one basis. She went so far to say that the universe balances everything out. Not in the punish those who are bad or reward those who are good way. It is more that it is ok for her to be bad because I am so good. Maybe she is right.

I have done things the right way my whole life. I have been the good son, the good brother, the good husband. And I have nothing but a broken heart and a divorce to show for it. 

She has used people her whole life. She has hurt several people very badly, but she keeps getting everything she wants. In 30 years, not once has anything gone wrong for her.

And to rub it in, we each had to call the bank to order new checks for our individual accounts. I was charged for them, but somehow she got a rep on the phone that waived the price. Can a guy get a break?

Sigh. I don't normally believe in past lives, but I must have really screwed up in one. Either that, or everything is random. You can go after what you want a positive way, or a negative way, and the universe could care less which way you do it.

I don't know if I ever want to attempt marriage again. So many people here post about all the problems that come with trusting and loving someone. It took me 8 years to realize I was being used by my wife. Everyone still thinks she is an angel. When asked what happened to us, she just says it didn't work out and we decided to separate. I guess that is true, but it isn't the truth. 

What is a nice guy to do?


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Brokenfrag

I’m so sorry to hear of your pain but I am relieved you are working your way out of that relationship. Yes good guys can finish first. You are married to a user. A manipulator. My hope is that she will realize that she has made a huge mistake. Lost a man who loved her in spite of her faults. Was there for her in her times of need. She and the new man deserve each other and my guess is it won’t last a year. Also there is no conflict between being a good guy and having confidence at the same time. She is not worthy of your efforts or love. Give yourself time to heal and then look for a new love. One that appreciates your honest and grounded qualities. Believe me there are plenty of singles out there desperately looking for that kind of relationship. Men and women. Marriage is a good thing. Unfortunately what we see here daily are people in trouble looking for answers. That’s what drew me here. And let’s face it, some are in real train wrecks at home. But there are many here also to serve as an example to how successful a marriage can be. Take your time, gain your confidence and recognize yourself for what you are. You are a nice guy. Some lucky girl out there will recognize that also and be drawn to you because of it. Good luck my friend.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Hi Brokenfrag....I can sooooo relate to what you are saying. I am the same way (except the 'guy' part  )



BrokenFrag said:


> She told me that women don't want a nice guy. They want a guy who can be nice.


She is speaking for herself here and probably not the only woman who feels this way but I can tell you with absolute certainty that this varies from one woman to the next and I've never been attracted to a man that wasn't nice...bad boys just scare me and make me uncomfortable.



BrokenFrag said:


> She went so far to say that the universe balances everything out. Not in the punish those who are bad or reward those who are good way. It is more that it is ok for her to be bad because I am so good. Maybe she is right.


hmmmm....ok then. I wish her luck with that thinking...I really believe in the 'what goes around comes around' I've seen it happen too often to not believe it.



BrokenFrag said:


> When asked what happened to us, she just says it didn't work out and we decided to separate. I guess that is true, but it isn't the truth.
> 
> What is a nice guy to do?


I am sorry. I am sure she would feel ashamed telling the entire story, but brushing it off like it was a mutual decision, ho-hum we're bored being married now just minimizes your devotion as her husband and I'm sorry to hear she's doing that.

Keep being the nice guy...it's so much easier to be who you are...you probably won't like yourself otherwise. Nothing wrong with getting a little tougher or shrewd...call the bank and demand free checks or you will switch to another bank...take back some power where it makes sense...it can be therapeutic for us nice guys


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Why Nice Guys Finish Last

This article popped up on Yahoo last night. It is written by a woman, and focusses on dating - but I couldn't ignore the piece that I felt pertained to our relationship. I printed out the following and gave it to my wife:

The nice guy cares too much, too soon. He has made the woman too important and too valuable and it shows in everything he says and does. He is too available, too eager to please, too accommodating, and he gives too much -- all without getting anything in return. By doing so, he has made himself appear desperate, insecure, needy of this woman's attention, affection, and approval -- and he has stripped himself of any value in her eyes. After all, if he's already doing and giving everything, without her doing or giving anything - why would she value him? She won't. She is not going to value him any more than he values himself. What she is going to do is look for someone else, someone who she perceives as being more worthy, more confident, and more valuable.
It works like this:

Once you need something, or you want it too badly, you forfeit your strength and lose all power of negotiation. You are in a position of weakness and you are perceived as weak. Someone (or something) else is in control of you, the situation, and it's outcome. Men in this situation appear to be anything but confident, strong, and exciting. More, they are perceived as being unworthy and as lacking value.
Translation: Things that are easily acquired, obtained, or maintained, without any effort or sacrifice, lack value... it's human nature.

I found this to be sad, and in my circumstances, true.


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## Healing (May 30, 2008)

Hey, a lot of us know what you mean. I don't believe that nice guys/gals finish last, I have said that before in anger but it isn't really true.

I believe nice guys and girls should just be true to themselves. A lot of the time, we take **** that we shouldn't stand for. A lot of the time, we keep quiet when we should speak out against something that we feel is wrong.

If despite of all our sincerity someone throws it in our face, maybe the problem lies with THEM and not with us. Nice guys and girls sometimes wind up attracted to people who are the opposite, who they hope they can change by living an example. Some people just can't be changed.

Just be who you are and be proud of it. You've given your best and you shouldn't have to regret anything.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

Healing said:


> Hey, a lot of us know what you mean. I don't believe that nice guys/gals finish last, I have said that before in anger but it isn't really true.
> 
> I believe nice guys and girls should just be true to themselves. A lot of the time, we take **** that we shouldn't stand for. A lot of the time, we keep quiet when we should speak out against something that we feel is wrong.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

draconis


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

After reading what Deejo wrote, and feeling like it describes me to a T, I think I have to sign off, take some deep breaths, and break something before I fly into a howling rage.

Guys should be conditioned from birth to never give anything away to anyone who doesn't work or it.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Amplexor said:


> Also there is no conflict between being a good guy and having confidence at the same time.


I read the article Deejo posted and can agree to some extent (thinking back to my dating days) that when you first meet someone, if they seem overly attentive (you are my world) it can tend to make you feel smothered, or too much too soon. It puts a lot of pressure on the other party if they feel they are solely responsible for this person's happiness.

I think Amp summed it up really well. A nice, confident guy is the best of both worlds in a long-term relationship....IMHO


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## possum (Jun 4, 2008)

I saw that article front-page on Yahoo the other day and read it too. I thought it reflected one of those unvarnished little truths about male-female relationships we rarely admit. 

One of the main points I read from it, though, is that independence, self-esteem and self-confidence are attractive traits in anybody whereas their opposites traits (whatever thay may be called) are definitely detractants - especially to many women. 

I would strongly recommend spending time with a counselor to work on getting your confidence, self-esteem and a strong sense of independence back up. This situation has got to have been a terrible blow. 

You can still be a nice, sensitive, caring and loving person and also be self-confident and strongly independent.


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## BrokenFrag (Mar 25, 2008)

Sadly, or unfortunately, or interestingly, my wife thought I was a cocky a-hole when she first met me.  I was full of confidence, knew what I wanted in life, and was happy to broadcast to the world what I thought of myself. We became friends somehow, and she learned how caring, sensitive, and loving I was on the inside. I think that is why she loved me.

Funny thing happened. I tried to be a good husband. I did more than my fair share of the chores. When she was unhappy I did my best to cheer her up. When she wanted to do things, I was happy to oblige. I did these things, because I loved her, and to be honest, I was such a positive and together guy, that I didn't need her help, or perhaps love even.

But as time went by, I noticed that she was less and less interested in pulling her weight around the house. If I brought this up, things would never go quite right. For instance, one of her assigned duties was to do the laundry. Well, I ran out of clean clothes more often than not because she had not gotten around to it. If I asked her to do the laundry, she would get upset that I asked her. If I did it myself, she would get upset that I did it myself. I asked her how I could get her to do laundry in a timely manner (you know, I need clean underwear), and she couldn't come up with anything.

After awhile I stopped trying to get her to do things like that. Instead of asking her to put things back in the fridge after she used them, I just started putting them away for her. Instead of telling her that something she did upset me, I kept it inside (I know, bad idea). And eventually, it started to eat away at my positive energy. It ate away at my self esteem. I felt I couldn't do anything to make her happy, and it hurt that she didn't try to do anything for me. I really didn't need her for anything but her love and her companionship. I had never been depressed or anxious. I had a decent job. I struggled with my weight a little, but so did she and she never indicated it was a problem at all. Sex became less frequent, but she never indicated why and she certainly didn't help me do anything to spice things up. It's like something happened at some point and she just stopped trying to be a wife (or even a responsible adult). Finally, we grew apart enough that she cheated, left me, yadda, yadda, yadda.

I am so frustrated because it was basically her behavior that drove me to lose my confidence. I was trying to help her find happiness so I gave up some of my desires. I was not a needy, spineless wimp like everyone likes to classify nice guys as. I adapted to her because I vowed to love her forever. She would not meet me half way so I went to her, not knowing that I was becoming the instrument of my own demise.

For her to say that I should be more confident and go for what I want more hurts because, I wanted her. I wanted her to be happy, so that is what I went for. She crushed my confidence over the years by making me feel unimportant. I already had her. She vowed forever to me. Was I supposed to act like some sort of alpha male all the timed? Should I have flirted with other girls to make her jealous? She angers me so much. She was needy, irresponsible, and lazy. And to throw it back in my face saying I should have had more confidence and gone for what I wanted is just ridiculous. You mean like pursuing a married woman? Going after something you are not supposed to just because you want it? Cheating on my spouse because it feels so good? 

In the end, she didn't turn out to be a very good person. She was a lousy wife, terrible friend, and then was just rotten. God only knows why I loved her so much. I know I had my doubts earlier in the marriage when I struggled with her poor habits, but I learned to adapt and to love her just the same. Is she really saying I should have stayed on her like a nagging parent trying to get their teenage child to pick up their clothes? 

Sigh. I know she doesn't represent all women, but she is the only frame of reference that I have. Articles like that Yahoo one unfortunately confirm what my wife said to me and it matches up to a lot of what I have read on a lot of relationship forums. Half the posts are "Why are all men a-holes?" and the other half are "Why do women always dump nice guys." Seems like there is a bit of a disconnect there. Unfortunately, it does seem like a lot of women would rather have an a-hole who is nice on occasion, rather than a nice guy who caters to them.

Lessons learned, I suppose. Now its just simple matter of dusting off the old self esteem after my wife of 8 years told me I was too nice, unattractive, and then reinforced what she thought of all my love and sacrifice by cheating on me. No problem, that is an easy one to overcome.

Good thing I am a positive person right?


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## dbj1971 (May 29, 2008)

Brokenfrag,

Don't listen to the load of garbage about nice guys finishing last. Somehow, in our twisted world, the notion of being nice has been equated with being weak. You can be strong and nice, confident and nice. I think there is a fundamental character flaw in someone who is drawn to a "bad boy" or "bad girl." I would go further and say that a real man or woman, who is mature, would appreciate someone like yourself. Why would anyone want someone who's dangerous?
Not to be Freudian, but I wonder if some people subconsciously have self-esteem issues and don't consider themselves worthy of someone who is nice, so they are drawn to someone whom they think mirrors their own self-worth. IE, I'm not worthy so I should be with a jerk. I also believe there are people who are genuinely attracted to jerky people. They are taught by society that there is a certain edginess to so-called bad boys. However, there is a lot of baggage that goes with that. But, I know, when it's all new the person only sees the excitement or draw of it. The first time he calls her a "b**ch" or tries to hit her, the bad boy probably won't be so sexy.
No one person can really change another, just like you can't make a leopard change its spots.

Remember too, that there are immature girls and boys all over the place in women's and men's bodies. A woman who spurns the niceness of you and goes with a jerk isn't really a woman. What is this, the 8th grade? Sometimes people grow in years but their maturity level is stuck somewhere in early adolescence.

Niceness isn't weak, unattractive, or un-sexy. Be true to yourself. What is really strong is staying true to yourself and being who you are, not letting the crappy opinions of immature, immoral, and *****mongering people tell you otherwise.

The reason it seems that nice people finish last is only because the jerky people sometimes get instant gratification, but in the long run they really lose. Sooner or later, the piper must be paid. I don't believe in karma, per se, but in Christianity we have a belief from the Bible that basically says what goes around comes around (it actually says something like, Be not decieved; God is not mocked; whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap).

It takes more character, more STRENGTH to stay nice in the face of such jerkiness and adversity than it does for some jerky dude who thinks he's the bee's knees to be jerky. I mean, come on, how hard is it to be a jerk? It's much harder to be nice.

Real women and men will agree with me. The rest, well, I sincerely hope you boys and girls grow up some day and at least catch up with your age level.

DJ


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## 33_momma_of4 (Jun 25, 2008)

I'm so sorry your going through what you are. Fortunately, not all woman see the 'bad' boy image appealing! I find it appauling!

Don't give up on who you are and what you deserve-The grass is never greener on the other side of the fence, just more weeds and bigger bugs in the yard!  Thats my crazy analogy for what its worth. lol She'll be back when this don't work out..... I'm willing to bet on it. By then, I hope that you've repaired the broken heart and damaged self esteem she has so flawlessly burdeoned upon you. 

My Grandma once told me: "Confident woman fall in love with amazing men. Amazing men stay in love with the woman who is confident."


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

BrokenFrag said:


> Sadly, or unfortunately, or interestingly, my wife thought I was a cocky a-hole when she first met me.  I was full of confidence, knew what I wanted in life, and was happy to broadcast to the world what I thought of myself. We became friends somehow, and she learned how caring, sensitive, and loving I was on the inside. I think that is why she loved me.


Brokenfrag

You lost your confidence because you were married to a user. Someone who cared only for herself and little for you. Years in that environment will destroy confidence. The more you tried to give the more she took until everything broke down. I will again state there is no conflict between being a nice guy and a confident guy. What is stated in the article and some posts above do not describe a nice guy but a needy one. Needy people by nature suffer from low self confidence. Don’t confuse a guy who opens a door for his girl friend/wife with a self loathing sap. Also don’t confuse a person of self confidence as an egotistical jerk. Nice, stable, caring, sensitive guys finish first with a lot of women and visa versa.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Virtually everyone has some degree of experience with similar circumstances.

Bad-boy/bad-girl syndrome is a reality. It gets more press, because let's face it, it's a hell of a lot more interesting to many people than hearing about well-balanced, loving partnerships. It's the difference between watching Nascar vs. morning commute traffic.

One is fast, exciting, loud, and has the potential for a wild, fiery crash. The other is predictable, steady, with an occasional fender bender.

Depending upon where you are at in your life - either model is fine. But, you don't commute in a race car, and you don't take a minivan onto the track at Daytona.

The nice vs. needy point is important, because it depends upon _who_ is making the determination.
In BF's case, and my own, our spouses who had their own baggage - were concluding that we were needy based upon our behavior. From my perspective, I was trying to behave in a manner that would _reduce_ strain on the relationship - but only increased it. In thinking that I would win affection and support, by showing affection and support - my plan backfired. So apparently, the interpretation of what is perceived as support, or as smothering, is left up to the recipient. And their judgment may not always be impartial.


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## BrokenFrag (Mar 25, 2008)

Thank you all for your support.

I truly wish I could believe in karma, or divine retribution, or whatever balance the universe might have. But I have never had strong faith, and it has been shaken even further. 

I have tried so hard for my whole life to be the best person I could be. I honored my parents, I took care of my younger sister, I have been a loyal, reliable friend, I was a dedicated husband, and I have yet to see the fruits of my labor. Perhaps expecting a better life in return for my actions is where I go wrong. I am human, though. I like to see results. If only the selfish, hurtful people get what they want, usually at the expense of good people like me, what kind of lesson is life trying to teach me? 

When do I get my reward? Do I really have to wait until the next life if there is one? To my knowledge, I only have one life to live, and I have tried to live it by the noblest of principles. It is over a third over and I am being forced to start completely over.

I guess I am just down right now. I am alone, in pain, and it hurts so much that it was caused by the woman I was prepared to love forever. She almost gloated this morning when I spoke with her about how little impact there has been for her. I originally thought that her boss was in trouble and that her lover was in danger of losing his job. Neither was true. The only thing that she has suffered is a little bit of embarrassment when people found out. 

I miss having someone to come home to. I miss having someone to share life with. I want so badly to find what I thought I had, but I don't trust that I will be able to do that. It took me 8 years and an incredible amount of heartbreak to learn what kind of person my wife truly was. I do not want to make a mistake again, but I am also terrified of being alone for the rest of my life. 

I actually had a tarot reading done because I have felt so unlucky for quite some time and I haven't been able to find answers. It nailed me dead on when describing my past and my present. My past was full of regret, apprehension, and rejection. My present is full of loss, betrayal, and confusion. My future has money, business, and energy. No mention of love or happiness. In fact, the summary indicated that I was in such an unfruitful place that I might actually have a curse on me. Now usually, I never believe in that stuff, but it rang so true that I am starting to believe it could be.

Sigh. Maybe I am not destined to be happy. If the tarot is true, at least I will have money and success so I can at least distract myself until I die. But, I would rather live a short life full of love than a long time without it. 

Take care, all. You are such good people. I hope that if there is strife in your life or you are in an unpleasant situation that you find your way out. Maybe it is my lot in life to absorb other people's bad karma so that they can live a happy life. Maybe I helped my wife find happiness that I was striving for by getting her to this stage in her life and leading her to her lover. Maybe I did succeed, just not in the way I had envisioned. Not everyone can be happy, right?


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

BrokenFrag said:


> Thank you all for your support.
> 
> I truly wish I could believe in karma, or divine retribution, or whatever balance the universe might have. But I have never had strong faith, and it has been shaken even further.
> 
> ...


you say you've never been a man of great faith, yet you put your emotions in the hands of a tarot card reader???? do yourself a favor, please, and pray to the Lord for strength and clarity in this time of need. He will hear you and you will be blessed.

i am so sorry for your loss. greive brother, and then cleanse your soul of that wreched woman. it sounds as though you did nothing to bring this heartache on yourself. you don't hafta believe in karma, however you define it. she will feel the burn of her misdeeds. i promise you. don't waste your energy on wishing ill will upon her. she is already being dealt with. God hates adultery and divorce.


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## cesolomon (Nov 5, 2008)

My Mom used to tell me "If you don't like yourself, how do you expect anyone else to"!!!! You need to write her off. Love yourself before you start looking for someone else to love you. Spend some time and indulge in your wants. That's not being selfish!!


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