# Kobayashi Maru



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm on strike. I've got a placard, Pete Seeger music, and the backing of the local steam fitter's union (you know - the pipe layers). 

The wife and I haven't been intimate now for over a month, and it's my fault. I do not want sex with her any longer, and I'm doing something about it.

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't find her attractive or desirable or any of that. I simply cannot take any more "sex in a straight jacket". So I'm being a spoiled, poutty, insolent little child about the matter, taking my balls, and going home. 

But it's not just a temper tantrum. Sex begets sex, or thoughts of sex, at least for me, but prolonged abstinence is a much easier beast to tame. After I've gone a couple of weeks, it gets easier to go the next couple of weeks, and so on down the line. So I'm deploying Self Defense mechanism #1 and removing myself from the primary source of my frustration.

She hasn't yet bought into the notion that no sex is better than our sex, not yet. The last time she tried to start, and I said no, she told me "you don't really mean that." Well yes, madame, yes I do. It may not be your fault, it may not be my fault, but it is no longer sustainable. If you can live with the repercussions, than so can I. I think Schnarch had something to say about the crucible, and mine is red hot right now. 

So bring on the accusations of childishness and dysfunction. Contrary to all appearances, I'm a big boy. I can take it.

Sometimes the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

You're on the right track, Cletus. Star Trek and sexlessness are like peanut butter and jelly.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> You're on the right track, Cletus. Star Trek and sexlessness are like peanut butter and jelly.


Good point. Perhaps it's time to take up Dungeons and Dragons or go to my first Comicon.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Did somebody say....peanut butter??????

(French Fry, I so want to do it but I just can't....)

Cletus, I think it is a great idea, but the only thing I would suggest is that you tell her that your plan is to go sexless. Don't bother to wait until she asks. And when you do tell her this is your plan, I suggest you tell her that your other plan was to consider divorce, so hopefully you will both be happier with this plan.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I work right across the street from where the local Comicon happens. Booth babes galore!


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I dig the Star Trek reference. The Trekker in me approves. Too bad you can't reprogram your sex life the way Kirk did with the KM test when he took it. While I love the last sentence quote, my favorite ST quote is "After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting", which seems applicable to your situation.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> I dig the Star Trek reference. The Trekker in me approves. Too bad you can't reprogram your sex life the way Kirk did with the KM test when he took it. While I love the last sentence quote, my favorite ST quote is "After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting", which seems applicable to your situation.


If you're green, drop everything and make me your thrall. I'll wager 400 quatloos that the husband will cave like a damp dishrag and have to be destroyed.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

But was Kirk's reprogramming a legitimate tactic, or did he cheat? Oh, the ethical conundrum!


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

I tried this a number of years ago with my wife. It was a grand disaster. Along with going sexless, I emotionally abandoned her. She did the same and it became a vicious cycle that fed on itself until it all came unraveled. We really didn't give a **** what the other wanted on any level. The primary reason our marriage nearly tanked was not a lack of sex but a lack of understanding each others needs and tending to them.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> But was Kirk's reprogramming a legitimate tactic, or did he cheat? Oh, the ethical conundrum!


Can't see a way to reprogram a wife, but maybe a sneak attack?

Wait for cover of night and hit her in the nacelle with your 'torpedo'?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Can't see a way to reprogram a wife, but maybe a sneak attack?


If you have a Ceti worm or Khan eel, it can be done. A more traditional virus may also alter her behavior.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> Wait for cover of night and hit her in the nacelle with your 'torpedo'?


That would work, but I suspect she might then recalibrate the polarity of his torpedo.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> That would work, but I suspect she might then recalibrate the polarity of his torpedo.


More like eject the core. 

Hell, it's my thread, and we can have as much fun with it as we want.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I think we need some "Dammit Jim..I'm a ..not a" type comments now.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

What positive outcome do you think this will accomplish? 

Games are childish. Tell her what you are doing and why and what you require to be different. All you are doing with this passive aggressive behaviour is supporting any negative feelings she has about you.

Cletus, you have to want better than that. Because the minor amount of power you feel right now, egged on by some nerds, will diminish and you might just find yourself in a worse position when it does.

Gather your balls and wield them like a man. If not, run down to the store and buy some jacks because that is all they will be good for.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I haven't got a clue what you guys are talking about, but it's fun reading it. Cletus, have you explained to your wife what's going on and why?


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Within 6 months, Cletus, you will be dreaming thusly:

Star Trek on The IT Crowd - YouTube


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> What positive outcome do you think this will accomplish?


One of two things will happen.

She will be OK with the new situation. This is the most likely outcome. You might not think that's a positive, but it is for me, because it's gotten to the point where no sex is better than half-assed sex. Really. No more frustration. No more putting my libido on hold just because it isn't Sunday night. No more getting revved up and wanting to do something that's not on the short list of approved sexual behaviors. That, combined with the normal reduction in drive that I've noticed after hitting the half century mark, will be a reduction in frustration that I could get on board with.

Or she will not be OK with the situation, and something else will happen. I have made my position to her clear enough in the past, there is no possibility that she does not understand what is driving this. Aggressive hasn't worked, maybe it's time for a little passive. 

I can live with either outcome.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I haven't got a clue what you guys are talking about, but it's fun reading it. Cletus, have you explained to your wife what's going on and why?


Yes, in two sentences (I have no more patience for long winded conversations that only reinforce the status quo):

"Our sex life has gotten to the point where the friction outweighs the positive gains. I do not think it is adding any substantial benefit to our relationship as it stands today and I no longer want to continue with the frustration".


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

When didya lower the boom?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> When didya lower the boom?


About 3 weeks ago. She hasn't raised the topic directly, but you can tell that she's spooked that I'm thinking about moving on. Which I am not, and in flagrant disregard for all bargaining power, I told her so. Because this isn't a power play to get my way - it's the best solution I can come up with from my perspective.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think the plan is fine...and it sounds like you understand that you might end up totally sexless and are fine with it (which isn't the same as being happy about having no sex...but you know what I mean).

You must really love your wife.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Cletus said:


> no sex is better than _half-assed sex_.


Or, _mono-gluteus sodomizing_.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Under what conditions will you relent? Do you have a set criteria?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Under what conditions will you relent? Do you have a set criteria?


Given our failure to beat the unwinnable scenario by ourselves after three decades, the only possible solution I can think of would be marriage counseling with a focus on sexual dysfunction. I don't know if that would be of any benefit, I'm skeptical, but not hard-headed.

Either that, or I get attacked in a moment of weakness and give in. It would only take once to reinforce the current paradigm, so who wants to give me his number to play the part of the AA buddy?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> I think we need some "Dammit Jim..I'm a ..not a" type comments now.


Dammit, Jim - I'm an epileptic, not a vibrator.

Too tasteless?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I know there are a lot of Star Trek references here, but I can't shake this vibe that is permeating the thread...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Excellent Cletus! Yeah for you I'm so glad! You deserve this! You've tried so hard to fit your desires into your wife's limitations. I think it's time she step out. Stick to you guns!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Excellent Cletus! Yeah for you I'm so glad! You deserve this! You've tried so hard to fit your desires into your wife's limitations. I think it's time she step out. Stick to you guns!


Gee, thanks, I guess?

I think me and my gun are going to be fast friends for a while.


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## spanz (Feb 6, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> I work right across the street from where the local Comicon happens. Booth babes galore!


dudes do NOT knock comicon until you see the hot cosplay vixens in their blue hair, thigh highs, and buxom....accessories!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Gee, thanks, I guess?
> 
> I think me and my gun are going to be fast friends for a while.


Then I'll try to get extra graphic with my posts to give your and your guns some fodder... I'm such a pal!


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Given our failure to beat the unwinnable scenario by ourselves after three decades, the only possible solution I can think of would be marriage counseling with a focus on sexual dysfunction. I don't know if that would be of any benefit, I'm skeptical, but not hard-headed.
> 
> Either that, or I get attacked in a moment of weakness and give in. It would only take once to reinforce the current paradigm, so who wants to give me his number to play the part of the AA buddy?


I wish you good luck, Mr. Cletus. If you don't stand up for yourself, then nobody will. :iagree:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Dear Moderator:

I have worn out the Like button on this thread. 

John


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

*Re: Re: Kobayashi Maru*



Cletus said:


> One of two things will happen.
> 
> She will be OK with the new situation. This is the most likely outcome. You might not think that's a positive, but it is for me, because it's gotten to the point where no sex is better than half-assed sex. Really. No more frustration. No more putting my libido on hold just because it isn't Sunday night. No more getting revved up and wanting to do something that's not on the short list of approved sexual behaviors. <snip>
> 
> ...


Short summary for me? She is too vanilla? Selfish? What?

She has sex with you so that is good. She has approached you and been turned down. So she wants sex and notices when you don't.

Were you happy with marital relations for a long time and then became unhappy? Or were you never happy?

If she tells you she didn't get married not to have sex so can she have a BF, what would you say?

You see where I am going with that. 
I don't think giving up sex is a good thing ever. Maybe you just need a break. Maybe a bit of a tantrum will let out your anger. I dont know. It is just that when you make sex a bargaining chip, especially as a man- and yes, that is unfair but I didn't build the universe - you need to be ready to spell out exactly what you want or you will end up even more emasculated.

Cletus, let's figure out a better way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> Cletus, let's figure out a better way.


I think he feels like he has tried and just cannot.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Coffee Amore said:


> "After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting"


Love, love, love that quote, Coffee! Thanks so much for sharing!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Short summary for me? She is too vanilla? Selfish? What?
> 
> 
> > Too vanilla and too selfish. Sex is allowed in two positions, with a bone thrown to me for one more two or three times a year. Kissing is allowed and enjoyed. Touching breasts is not. Touching her genitals is not. Oral is not, either way. No showering together - bubble baths OK as long as they don't turn frisky. Won't let me undress her. Foreplay lasts 10 minutes on a good day. A handjob a couple of times a year if I ask nice. Face to face PIV is the only truly approved sexual practice. Sex during the work week is not encouraged. My initiating might be met with success, but the lack of enthusiasm is palpable.
> ...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Cletus, I think what you're doing is LONG over due! What you seek is natural, what your wife seeks is oppression. You can't thrive in that environment.

Can I suggest you start looking for an excellent sex therapist immediately, start checking them out now so you are ready to go? Most sex therapists are regular PhD therapsids who happen to specialize in sex therapy, among other things most notable marriage counseling. So she doesn't have to know the therapist who specializes in marriage counseling also specializes in sex therapy....


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Cletus,

What's her religious background like?

If you don't hold yourself back, if you were to fondler her breasts, what does she do?

Was she sexually abused as a child?

Sometimes sexual touch doesn't feel good if it evokes confusing thoughts and feelings about the past. 

Has she ever explained why she is so rigid? And not "I just am" or "I don't know." What does being touched on her breasts feel like for her? 

If these things genuinely cause her emotional anguish, I don't think it would be right for you to demand she accept emotional pain just so you can do what you want to her. If she had been abused in any way, you would become the next abuser.

I'm coming in late on all of this so if there is a thread you want to point me to, I'll catch up.

Something you said though -- she is highly orgasmic if everything follows the drill (<g>) -- you can hardly blame her for wanting to do something that works!

So can it be stated that you don't feel she trusts you with her body? 

How much change do you really want? How much do you want porn sex versus loving sex with a wife who wants you? Cause she wants you. Does she love you? Do you love her? Doesn't sound like you do much anymore.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> *So can it be stated that you don't feel she trusts you with her body?*
> 
> How much change do you really want? How much do you want porn sex versus loving sex with a wife who wants you? Cause she wants you. Does she love you? Do you love her? Doesn't sound like you do much anymore.


Excellent question, clipclop2! Very important to explore.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

> How much change do you really want? How much do you want porn sex versus loving sex with a wife who wants you? Cause she wants you. Does she love you? Do you love her? Doesn't sound like you do much anymore.


How can one maintains love when there are such restrictions on the expression of love? Her needs are being met, but his needs are not!

I don't know how old you are ClipClop, but as men age, they NEED more stimulation...which is the reason why older men are better lovers! With Mrs. Cletus's restrictions in place and in play, the burden this places in Cletus is wholly unfair. It's not as if she is a quadrapalexic and cannot move to caress him.

Secondly, what Cletus expects from making love to and with his wife is wholly and fully rationable and reasonable, by the standards set forth in modern society. Her restrictions are not based on preference, but are based on her fear of the unknown and her inability to allow her body to feel everything it can feel. It is not her body that is in the way of a great sex life but her mind!

Sorry Cletus, I'm just so happy for you I have to rise to defend you!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You are so sweet, AP! Cletus is lucky to have you here defending him. 

I think clipclop2 is just bringing up some issues for Cletus to think about. Clipclop2 is sure making me think. He seems to have caught Cletus's ear, and it will be interesting to see what the take home is on this, if anything.

And, AP, you really know a lot about human sexuality. You are a great resource here. And you share your knowledge freely. I didn't know that older men needed more stimulation (Interesting!), but as dh will be 47 soon, I know who to ask if there is a problem. Thank you!

And Cletus, thanks for letting all of us learn along with you!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Ok, since most of this is new to at least some readers...



clipclop2 said:


> Cletus,
> 
> What's her religious background like?


Same as mine - relaxed Catholic. She is now at best an agnostic with no religious ties whatsoever. She has a high level of uneasiness and aversion to sexuality. She gets uncomfortable in a movie with sexual situations. She has never seen a pornographic movie in her life and likely never will. I was there when she gave "50 shades" a turn and threw the book down in disgust when it came to a description of a blow job. 



> If you don't hold yourself back, if you were to fondler her breasts, what does she do?


Asks me to stop. She doesn't like it. Says they're too sensitive. This I understand. It's not a deal breaker. None of the individual issues are deal breakers. It's the sum total of all the off-limits.



> Was she sexually abused as a child?


No. This is usually the first question I have to answer.



> If these things genuinely cause her emotional anguish, I don't think it would be right for you to demand she accept emotional pain just so you can do what you want to her. If she had been abused in any way, you would become the next abuser.


It would not be right for me to demand any such thing, and I am expressly not doing that. 



> Something you said though -- she is highly orgasmic if everything follows the drill (<g>) -- you can hardly blame her for wanting to do something that works!


I don't blame her. She has an "if something ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. 'Cept something IS broke. 



> So can it be stated that you don't feel she trusts you with her body?


No, that's not accurate. She has no interest in sexual touch, from anyone, including herself, but she greatly enjoys non-sexual contact. 

She has told me that the last time she tried to masturbate, she was unable to arouse herself and gave up. 



> How much change do you really want? How much do you want porn sex versus loving sex with a wife who wants you? Cause she wants you. Does she love you? Do you love her? Doesn't sound like you do much anymore.


You're stuck on thinking that I am trying to fix this, that this is some power play to get my way at the cost of her well being.

That is not the case. Just like she is who she is, I am who I am, and we are a sexually disjoint couple who do not value the same things in the bedroom, and for whom an agreeable solution is a highly unlikely event. I do not blame her for being who she is. I am long past trying to fix what can't be fixed. I will never like Brussell sprouts and she will never like more adventurous sex. I do not wish to impose my will on our sex life other than to say "this is no longer worth the effort". I do not want her to have to engage in things that cause her anguish or disgust. And above all, I do not want to fight over the issue any longer.

I did my part, before the marriage and for the ensuing 30 years of suppressing my innate sexuality. If you want me to say "for the sake of our marriage, I will choose your way and not the highway", then all I can add is been there, did that, bought and grew out of the teeshirt.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Well it's about time,Cletus. Bravo


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm glad the captain approves. I think it can be inferred that the first officer probably does as well.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Yea I suppose a guy's got to do what a guy's got to do.

Why don't you just move on?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

usmarriedguy said:


> Yea I suppose a guy's got to do what a guy's got to do.
> 
> Why don't you just move on?


Because it's hard enough to find someone who shares your general outlook on life, with whom you never argue about the raising of your children, or money, or who complains that you aren't providing well enough. Someone who has been flexible enough to stay by your side through both your successes and failures. Someone with whom you expect to travel and grow old. 

If I trade in my current model, I could get a better sexual partner, assuming I could get a partner at all (and let's be serious, that is never assured). But I would be hard pressed to get an overall better wife. If I can't make my first marriage succeed, then we all know the stats on subsequent attempts. 

Life doesn't come without sacrifices, and this is one I choose to make.


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

I'm loving the Star Trek references!! 

Good luck Cletus. I hope things work out for the best.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Because it's hard enough to find someone who shares your general outlook on life, with whom you never argue about the raising of your children, or money, or who complains that you aren't providing well enough. Someone who has been flexible enough to stay by your side through both your successes and failures. Someone with whom you expect to travel and grow old.
> 
> If I trade in my current model, I could get a better sexual partner, assuming I could get a partner at all (and let's be serious, that is never assured). But I would be hard pressed to get an overall better wife. If I can't make my first marriage succeed, then we all know the stats on subsequent attempts.
> 
> Life doesn't come without sacrifices, and this is one I choose to make.


But can you do this without building resentment? (Assuming you don't already have a pile of resentment over this issue . . . and if you do, what are you doing about it?)

Don't let resentment in. It will hurt you, and it will hurt her. 

I'm guessing you already know this . . .


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Hi Anon. I haven't made any judgements on what Cletus wants or has or hasn't done. I'm in the info gathering stage.

I understand the issues with men as they age. 

Jumping way ahead, even if he were to get vast improvement, there will probably be things he will have to give up hoping for. 

How much he loves her matters a lot. Putting so much of his love on what sex,he isn't getting would concern me since she does want him. 

Cletus, you dismisses her desire for you by essentially saying that you are her only outlet . That's pretty standard and a lot of marriages . do you really think that if she were to take up masturbation she would lose all interest in you? because you suggest that she really isn't interested in you at all . that probably isn't the case or she wouldn't have sex with you at all .

I haven't read past anon's post . so if y'all will wait until I have read everything else that has been written to respond to this post it might prevent me from going in circles and prevent driving you good people crazy.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

well that was easy not a whole lot was written.

Thank you clear for the background about religion.

How can you be so sure that she didn't experience abuse and her childhood? Her strong reaction to 50 shades surprises me . I mean yeah I get that it's crap but as far as crap is concerned I suspect is mild crap though I must say that I have never opened the pages.

what does sexual touch mean to her? When she experiences what does she feel? she lets you bring her to orgasm. so she can handle some pretty intense feelings. 
did perhaps other people have sex around her when she was young? like her parents letting her hear them or accidentally walking in on someone? older siblings? 

did she mature physically at a young age? 

I'm not sure that I understand why you would decide not to have any sex with her at all rather than attempt to enjoy the sex that you do have with her. 

are you saying masturbating is more fulfilling? And if so does she realize this? 

do you watch much porn and masturbate? is there any chance that an increase in porn use has coincided with your decision to stop having sex with her because it is in fulfilling? would you be willing to give it up if that were the case? Because I really think not having sex in your marriage is a really bad idea .

if you do watch porn how does she feel about it?

are you allowed to masturbate in front of her?

my last question for now is whether she has much of an imagination in general . is she creative? artistic? Does she draw paint , doodle, do interesting things with fashion? 

Ok. Not last.

has she made any changes in her sexual behavior over the time that you've been together? Either for better or worse? 

has she ever indicated a willingness to talk to somebody about this simply out of her love for you? Or alternatively realizing that there is some fun that she's missing ? 

if you're seriously dead set against having sex with her in the future which I kinda doubt gonna happen long term because I bet you'll give in , but if you are serious then please tell her why you have decided not to have sex with her any longer . I think you owe that much to her and I think you owe it to yourself to be open and to not cause additional stress. if you have truly given up trying to change her or to control the situation then I would expect you to be willing to tell her .


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> if you're seriously dead set against having sex with her in the future which I kinda doubt gonna happen long term because I bet you'll give in , but if you are serious then please tell her why you have decided not to have sex with her any longer


During the last few years of my first marriage, I pretty much followed Cletus' approach. The constant struggle over sex and the constant rejection became too much, so it was less stressful to decide to completely give up sex with my wife and turn her down in the few, extremely rare instances when she initiated. And I did turn her down rather than experience the stress it would have created, the unfulfillable expectations. Yes, I told her what I was doing and why. I felt much better after that, and my peace of mind and overall well-being increased immensely. I also gained the perspective I needed to see that the relationship wasn't good in other ways - in fact, was toxic, unlike Cletus' - and that helped me decide to leave (where I had been on the fence for many years).


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think Cletus said he did tell her.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> How can you be so sure that she didn't experience abuse and her childhood? Her strong reaction to 50 shades surprises me . I mean yeah I get that it's crap but as far as crap is concerned I suspect is mild crap though I must say that I have never opened the pages.


Whew. You are going to wear me out.

How can I be sure? I've asked and she has said no. With no reason to doubt the answer, that was the end of that. 



> did perhaps other people have sex around her when she was young? like her parents letting her hear them or accidentally walking in on someone? older siblings?


She has never mentioned any such thing and I haven't dug. She has told me that she has no recollection of ever having been sexually traumatized in any way. 



> did she mature physically at a young age?


She was in a bra earlier than most. 



> I'm not sure that I understand why you would decide not to have any sex with her at all rather than attempt to enjoy the sex that you do have with her.
> 
> are you saying masturbating is more fulfilling? And if so does she realize this?


I'm saying that the frustration of always putting myself in check - don't touch that, don't put your face there, don't think about doing anything new and unproven because it won't be welcome - wears you out after a while. Masturbation isn't necessarily more fulfilling, but it comes with a helluva lot less baggage. 



> do you watch much porn and masturbate?


Infrequently - masturbate now about once a week, porn even less. My tastes in erotica are, for lack of a better word, feminine. I don't care for abusive or overtly artificial erotica. 



> is there any chance that an increase in porn use has coincided with your decision to stop having sex with her because it is in fulfilling?


Not even remotely possible. All of my sexual activity of any kind has dropped off dramatically over the last couple of years. 



> if you do watch porn how does she feel about it?


She doesn't care for it at all, but I think she has learned over the years that finding a man who never views pornography of any kind is a statistical impossibility. I never flaunt it, never tell her when I've done it, but don't deny when asked, which is never. 

It is NOT the problem.



> are you allowed to masturbate in front of her?


No. She can't imagine why anyone would ever want to do that or watch it. Her best friend is a Passion Party agent, and she picked up a sleeve for me, but it was not intended to be used by either of us in her presence. 



> my last question for now is whether she has much of an imagination in general . is she creative? artistic? Does she draw paint , doodle, do interesting things with fashion?


Not her strong suit, except sewing. I have homemade shirts that never fail to generate conversation.



> has she made any changes in her sexual behavior over the time that you've been together? Either for better or worse?


Yes, it was worse when we go married. At least we can have the lights on now. She has allowed the introduction of a WeVibe into the bedroom because it helps her (I have a mild case of Peyronie's that took a little length and girth off the old boy, and she's a Gspot kinda girl).



> has she ever indicated a willingness to talk to somebody about this simply out of her love for you? Or alternatively realizing that there is some fun that she's missing ?


She talks obliquely about it with friends. She made a point to bring home a story about a husband who didn't want his wife dressing like a "*****" in bed, just so I'd be sure to understand that her conservatism wasn't unique nor limited to women only.



> if you have truly given up trying to change her or to control the situation then I would expect you to be willing to tell her .


Done. She doesn't believe me yet. The last time she asked went like this:

Her: "You want sex?"
Me: "No"
Her: "I don't think you mean that. Let's go"
<I pull up the covers and start moving my face between her legs>
Her: "What the hell are you doing?"
Me: "You don't want me to do that?"
Her: "No. That is never happening"
Me: "When I say no, I mean it too"

There has been no further conversation on the topic and no more attempts on either of our parts for renewed intimacy.

Let me add that this isn't my first rodeo. I've had 30 years to contemplate everything mentioned here.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Hiya ClipClop, sorry if I came off rude, wasn't my intention at least.

I've seen Cletus's threads about his wife for about a year now, since I joined. He has done all a person can do. Investigated all a person can investigate. Tried to come to terms with it, now it's time to try to alter the status quo and destabilize things so that change is an easier option than staying this same.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> But can you do this without building resentment? (Assuming you don't already have a pile of resentment over this issue . . . and if you do, what are you doing about it?)
> 
> Don't let resentment in. It will hurt you, and it will hurt her.
> 
> I'm guessing you already know this . . .


The first part about letting go of resentment for me was to let go of the blame. With one of us further from the norm than the other, it was easy to say "See! You're the problem!" when the fact is WE are the problem. It's as much my fault that I can't be satisfied with our sex life as it is hers that she cannot expand it. 

That helps, but diligence is still important when I backslide.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Hiya ClipClop, sorry if I came off rude, wasn't my intention at least.
> 
> I've seen Cletus's threads about his wife for about a year now, since I joined. He has done all a person can do. Investigated all a person can investigate. Tried to come to terms with it, now it's time to try to alter the status quo and destabilize things so that change is an easier option than staying this same.


Not that you'll understand the reference, but in keeping with the flavor of the thread, it's all about rotating the shield harmonics, baby.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Hiya ClipClop, sorry if I came off rude, wasn't my intention at least.
> 
> I've seen Cletus's threads about his wife for about a year now, since I joined. He has done all a person can do. Investigated all a person can investigate. Tried to come to terms with it, now it's time to try to alter the status quo and destabilize things so that change is an easier option than staying this same.


So what would have happened in your house back in the days before you became self-enlightened if this had played out?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> So what would have happened in your house back in the days before you became self-enlightened if this had played out?


That's why one of the first things I checked was to be sure you have enlightened her about your strike.

I would have been angry. For a while.

I would have fought dirty, but not too dirty.

I would have gotten my sh!t together sooner!


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

You are probably underestimating your ability to find someone more compatible.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> You are probably underestimating your ability to find someone more compatible.



Read my earlier postings on this. If I include married people I know of exactly one lady in my large circle of friends that is as fun loving and immature as I am. Most late 40's early 50's ladies I know are the mommy types or the super career types or those who were divorced not by their own choice and I only wonder why they were...

You can sign up on any of the major web sites but the math does not work all that well in your favor. Do the math, you'll be surprised. If you're 35-40 it's a different story.

Write an as for yourself and see if it sounds highly unlikely you'll get something. If it does your instincts are not wrong.


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## Oldfaithful (Nov 27, 2013)

This is just sad. For a while my partner developed an aversion to one of my favorite things sexually and I got to the point where I was so frustrated I didn't want sex anymore. 
Eventually he got over it thankfully. 
Was your wife your first? 
I just don't know how someone can be so rigid, it is just sad. 
I would say you might find a really good sex therapist who could help her. But if she isn't willing to try what can you do.


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## married&lovingit (Jan 26, 2011)

Cletus - your story hits me close to home - Been there, though Mrs. married wasn't as rigid as Miss Cletus.

I was torn inside, near the end of any rope I felt I had left.

Then one afternoon I called the 800 number on the back of my insurance card and inquired about mental health services and mentioned I was considering suicide - I really felt that there was no other recourse. Was told to go to the emergency room. Having provided my group/member # initially, I hung up on her. Minutes later - as the family arrives home from their day - a police cruiser pulled up and insisted they take me in for observation.

Long story, but it made the Mrs and I really talk about our relationship. 

I guess it's been about three years now - sexually, she is not the same person I had been married to - and I've improved myself too. Love Languages, MMSL and even 50 shades (she liked it and light BD is a frequent 'menu' item)...

In my case, a life changing event had to happen. 

Best of luck to you.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

married&lovingit said:


> Cletus - your story hits me close to home - Been there, though Mrs. married wasn't as rigid as Miss Cletus.
> 
> I was torn inside, near the end of any rope I felt I had left.
> 
> ...


Wow! Now that's a serious destabilization! Glad to know things have worked out so well for you.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

usmarriedguy said:


> You are probably underestimating your ability to find someone more compatible.


I was thinking of standing by the freeway offramp with a cardboard sign reading "Will work for sex". Whadda ya think?

I have no allusions as to my attractiveness to the opposite sex. Middle aged introverted balding gray shortish pudgy men with questionable plumbing don't exactly drawn 'em like flies.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

married&lovingit said:


> Cletus - your story hits me close to home - Been there, though Mrs. married wasn't as rigid as Miss Cletus.


That's one of the first stories I've ever heard of someone successfully turning the ship around. Good for you.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I've heard lots of success stories...but only when the LD spouse was just LD by situation, not by nature.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I was thinking of standing by the freeway offramp with a cardboard sign reading "Will work for sex". Whadda ya think?


:rofl:


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

It seems like SHE needs a therapist to become more comfortable with her own body and her own needs. She has suppressed this for some reason....


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

I don't believe in the "no win scenario"!!!!!!!!!!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Most LD non LD marriages are no win situations easily. No win for the LD and no win for the non LD.

You'd be surprised how many frigid spouses feel on top of the world for winning the battle of the sheets yet lose the war altogether. Most wars - by any other name - are no win for everyone.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I was thinking of standing by the freeway offramp with a cardboard sign reading "Will work for sex". Whadda ya think?
> 
> I have no allusions as to my attractiveness to the opposite sex. Middle aged introverted balding gray shortish pudgy men with questionable plumbing don't exactly drawn 'em like flies.


I don't really think looks play near as big a factor in women's selections and there are a lot of introverted, pudgy, graying women out there who, while they may not be perfect, do have a normal interest in sex.

There are a lot of women who are divorced just because there husbands where major a holes.

Anyway it sounds as if sex is becoming much less important to you anyway.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's all age based. The probability of finding a single, available, late 40's to mid 50's woman that has no major sexual hangups, no skeletons, and no emotional basket case is not all that high.

If you think it's easier than that, Google for Melani Robinson's blog called "one year of online dating at 50" and read every blog entry. Make sure you don't bust a gut laughing out loud. It's done from a female perspective where one would think the choices are "better'".

If Melani went nowhere in a year in NYC good luck to Dr. John here in Paducah


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I do not think it is like that, john. That is a pretty pessimistic view.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

That is someone having fun doing creative writing. She did not go anywhere in a year because she did not want to go anywhere. 

But sure, if your wife is otherwise perfect and sex is really not that important than you may have trouble finding a suitable replacement. 

I was really not talking about you though John because you have made your choice and accept it. There is no reason you need to rationalize your choice to me.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Read the blog. Trust me. Just read it. 

She does not hold any punches. Yet out of a year in NYC that's all she came up with?

I'm not one to be impressed by blogs but Melani simply nailed it. She also identified the traits she found desirable or not, for some DIY critique...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm not rationalizing my choice - just pointing out the reality of dating at my age....


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> It's all age based. The probability of finding a single, available, late 40's to mid 50's woman that has no major sexual hangups, no skeletons, and no emotional basket case is not all that high.
> 
> If you think it's easier than that, Google for Melani Robinson's blog called "one year of online dating at 50" and read every blog entry. Make sure you don't bust a gut laughing out loud. It's done from a female perspective where one would think the choices are "better'".
> 
> If Melani went nowhere in a year in NYC good luck to Dr. John here in Paducah


You've referenced that blog before. I read a few months worth. It's not realistic at all. She is a widow looking to replace Perfect Big Love. She has very high expectations and a narrow definition of chemistry and love. Anyone married for a long time can attest that big perfect love comes and goes. Waxes and wanes, just like the moon. The automatic martyrdom of early death precludes her from being realistic about relationships.

John, stop being so pessimistic! Sheeshe! It's almost like you're on a mission to share the misery instead of working to make things better! 

Why are we here in TAM at all? To find a way to make it better!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I fully understand where she came from. Unless she chose her dates only for maximum effect on her blog - much the way talk show screeners tend to select the most idiotic comments that disagree with their guy rather than someone more articulate - I have to wonder what's going on.

I have a couple friends that married after online dating - neither hooked remotely what I would call a great catch unless you count a super beta never married guy marrying a lady 10 years his senior and with two tweens already a great catch.

Maybe my expectations are too high.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

What difference does it make? You have already been perfectly clear that your marriage is acceptable to you -you should own it. 

If you believe that there are no women out there better than your wife than that tells me that you have a fairly high appreciation for what she offers despite your grumbling.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john....I've known so many people who are divorced and happily remarried, or in good relationships, or just having lots of sex (if that's their choice)...literally dozens of them.

It is clear you want to tell yourself any thing you have to in order to justify your fear of leaving.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Glad to see everyone seems to know me better than I know myself 

It's reassuring to believe that every hearth has a pot, every garage has a Buick, and everybody has no acne and no bad breath.

But reality is a bit different as it is different for all of us. Two days or reckoning, one in 3 years, one in 7, are fast approaching. Based on what I'm seeing, the 3 year is maybe 50% chance of splitting, 7 years is near 100%. Neither is intimacy related, we could be doing the 30 day challenge on a loop for 3 or 7 years and still the root causes I'm concerned about are going to be there.

Some may call it getting even, or even worse. But life is gestalt, a whole larger than the sum of its parts.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Na, I don't buy it. I think you are secretly proud of your Asian hellcat.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

The Debbie Downer strikes again.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> If you believe that there are no women out there better than your wife than that tells me that you have a fairly high appreciation for what she offers despite your grumbling.



Some appreciation, yes. But not commensurate with the appreciation "I am due" (insert colorful entitlement emoji) for what I have done and not enough for long term viability of the relationship.

We had a long chat yesterday that continued to confirm what I already know. She's not interested in anyone who may become chronically ill as we all do, she may not continue working after 3 years - too tired - and she wants to enjoy "her" money. 

My only response was to take advantage of her employers superb mental health insurance coverage and get some serious IC before they change their mind. Also to work more focused but for fewer hours. Neither suggestion even entered her brain. 

The last part may suggest that I care about her enough to suggest such things. This is true but I can't drag her into IC or MC. I can't stop her from working slow 14 hour days.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

john117 said:


> I'm not rationalizing my choice - just pointing out the reality of dating at my age....


Aren't you pretty much cherry-picking your reality?

The simple truth is, you don't know what the reality of dating at your age is. And you won't. Not unless you choose to do it.

Sure, you can read about it. You can talk about it. You can rationalize, quantify and ruminate about it.

But you quite simply cannot know what your reality of a circumstance will be ... if you aren't doing it, or haven't experienced it.

I have a buddy who takes the same approach to relationships. In the 40 plus years I've known him, he has NEVER had a long term relationship, and generally just believes women are bad news, that they will betray, reject, or hurt you. That is his reality. It isn't remotely mine, or most other people's. Can he say his points are true and accurate? Sure he can. That doesn't make him right ... not for everyone else.

I don't fault him. I presume he is getting exactly what he wants. And were he to start b!tching about it, I'd tell him he needs to reframe what he wants.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> Na, I don't buy it. I think you are secretly proud of your Asian hellcat.



I'm proud of who she was 10 years ago, even 5. A damned good looking successful business consultant with the right education and experience, hard working, and good enough mom to outsource parenting to me.

The last 5 years... I'm proud she hasn't gone postal... 

Hellcat indeed.


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

You see, you have to know how to read this when a guy writes something like this...




john117 said:


> The probability of finding a single, available, late 40's to mid 50's woman that has no major sexual hangups, no skeletons, and no emotional basket case is not all that high.


Let me fix it for all of you...



john117 said:


> The probability of finding a single, available, late 40's to mid 50's woman *who looks like she is 30 and has a body like a supermodel and sex on her mind all of the time,* and that has no major sexual hangups, no skeletons, and no emotional basket case is not all that high.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

You forgot the most important part sparkyjim.

_*...and earns the kind of money my wife does.*_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Or the larger, unspoken part..."I don't value having a sexual relationship that much anyway, so why would I go through all the hassle of dating, possible rejection, and effort it would take to even try to get a new sex partner?"

Which is a totally valid view point, and I know many people our age who feel that way.

It is nice when it can just be understood by the person themselves though...self-awareness is huge.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> You forgot the most important part sparkyjim.
> 
> 
> 
> _*...and earns the kind of money my wife does.*_



Actually that's not my concern. My experience with well educated high earning women of that age is that they're either resentful they never made it even higher in the corporate ladder or think that working even harder thinking they will make it even higher.

I live a couple houses away from the unmarried and late 40's single daughter and trust fund baby of a local CEO. She's very well educated, not working, and so on. We talk often but she's not my type - too bubbly - and too much into religion for my taste.

Another friend whom I know for 20 years could be a candidate but she's also the too bubbly personality. She's also loaded with money tho happily married. Our families spent. Couple vacations together - not my cup of tea. (Bon Jovi groupie at 50? Please take me out and shoot me )

We now return you to Normal People :lol:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

And then there's this:

http://www.xojane.com/sex/hi-there-im-fat-forty-single-and-****ty

'I'm Fat, Forty, Single, and having no problem getting laid all the time...."


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Or the larger, unspoken part..."I don't value having a sexual relationship that much anyway, so why would I go through all the hassle of dating, possible rejection, and effort it would take to even try to get a new sex partner?".



You're getting closer.

I've never been the super emotional type, and tend to be very good at reading others. It's more of "what kind of person would I attract" than fearing rejection.

Set the bar high enough and see what flies over it. The objective is not to get laid with one of the Golden Girls, but rather find someone for the next 20 years. The first is not a problem, plenty of good looking widows in my birth country (that's smoking for y'all) but not sure of the second.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Since you do get good sex from your wife like once a month or so, I don't really see what your problem is.

I think it is that you feel she will never emotionally connect with you.

But sometimes the way you say it detracts from that.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> And then there's this:
> 
> http://www.xojane.com/sex/hi-there-im-fat-forty-single-and-****ty
> 
> 'I'm Fat, Forty, Single, and having no problem getting laid all the time...."


Only took me one guess to fill-in-the-forum-asterisks to make your link useful.

Nothing like a little harmless censorship.

Is it remotely possible that finding sexual partners is ever-so-slightly easier for women, on average? Men who fetishize or are comfortable with fat women are a well known phenomenon, as that blog poster has discovered. Women who fetishize fat men? I'm sure they exist, but I've never heard of them. 

Everyone middle aged I've personally ever known who went searching for a new relationship online eventually did find someone, if not the perfect choice, at least someone to "round up" to good enough. I don't know if this speaks more to the human need for companionship than it does to the quality of those available. 

At this point in my life, I'm well aware that I would almost certainly lose something to gain something, and the harsh reality is that I might have to lose a lot to gain a little. Meh, it's really just not worth it, for me.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ok Cletus how about a quick mental exercise though...and if you can honestly answer this...IF YOU KNEW you were assured a compatible sex partner who loved you if you got divorced, then would you?


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Probably so but I think for age 50+ there are also more women than men.

John you can't discount that money is a high priority to you. You show it in 20% or your posts.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok Cletus how about a quick mental exercise though...and if you can honestly answer this...IF YOU KNEW you were assured a compatible sex partner who loved you if you got divorced, then would you?


It depends on the tradeoffs. What's her personality defect? We all have one. 

Let's take my ex-sister-in-law. Smart enough, pretty, loving, loyal, and a go-getter in the sack. But a financial train wreck who played no small part in their bankruptcy. 

I'm no hopeless romantic who thinks that there is One True Mate for me in a world of 7+ billion. Nor do I believe it likely that you find someone who is perfect in every way. We all round up a little in finding a mate. With perfect clairvoyance, I suppose I would get a divorce if I could see the future and that future was overall an improvement. That I don't do so you could say is fright of the unknown, but I prefer to think of it as an example of my favorite old saying -

Not only is the grass sometimes not greener, frequently it isn't even grass.

When you're married, you don't have the option to go out and test the waters to see if you qualify for an upgrade. You have to smash the old model first and hope that a better one comes along. I imagine a better model is out there, somewhere. I also expect that the cost/benefit analysis of trying to find it is not in my favor and that I'm better off working on being content than raging about my poor, pitiful life. What I'm doing now is one way of raising my contentment metric by reducing my frustration and hence discontent. 

Realistic expectations in everything is a good mantra, IMHO, and I'm a hard-core realist. Romantics thinkers need not apply.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think that's a yes?

I believe you should push for the counseling then, Cletus. At least try.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think it is that you feel she will never emotionally connect with you.



Do you take Blue Cross / Blue Shield  

That's as good as an explanation as it gets.

My concern is she's not connected emotionally to any of us, not me, not her kids. Not even herself.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

usmarriedguy said:


> Probably so but I think for age 50+ there are also more women than men.
> 
> 
> 
> John you can't discount that money is a high priority to you. You show it in 20% or your posts.



And the other 80% ??


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I worried that the grass may not be greener for a long time. But eventually I found that whether it was greener or not, or grass or not, it was more appealing than the grassfire closing in on my precious butt!

It turned out that not only was the grass greener, it was better than grass. At least, for me it was. I was prepared to seek until I found a better life (knowing what I needed very clearly), even if that meant being alone. A lot of persistence and looking, and a little luck let her find me. YMMV.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

What I've usually seen in this type of scenario, is that if the HD spouse is very HD in general, they will cheat or divorce. In every case I've known, the HD spouses didn't regret divorcing (but most regret cheating, if they did).

If they are just HD compared to their spouse but they don't have a real strong drive all the time (relatively), they will usually stay. When they stay, there are no changes. But they can learn other ways to be happy.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

john117 said:


> And the other 80% ??


The other 80% are Not about money. 

Cletus actually just based on what you write I think that you have a fairly substantial advantage over the average male.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

john117 said:


> And the other 80% ??


... merely hint at it.


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> If they are just HD compared to their spouse but they don't have a real strong drive all the time (relatively), they will usually stay....... But they can learn other ways to be happy.



Faithful Wife, there is a lot of truth in the statement you made above in my marriage. We have made progress, but overall I am still wanting sex more than my wife. That won't change, but we do things to acknowledge each other's needs and take care of each other in ways that make us both happy.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

john117 said:


> Read the blog. Trust me. Just read it.
> 
> She does not hold any punches. Yet out of a year in NYC that's all she came up with?
> 
> I'm not one to be impressed by blogs but Melani simply nailed it. She also identified the traits she found desirable or not, for some DIY critique...


I like this one, after her pharmacist accidentally gave her a hormone dosage 5x what was prescribed:



> I have tremendous empathy for men. I don’t know how they do it. How do they function with their heads filled with sexual thoughts every 60 seconds? They should be walking masturbation machines. And how do they stop themselves from trying to control everything and everyone? How do they prevent the overwhelming desire to throw an elbow at anyone who crosses them? I had half a notion to do that at Fairway Market with a pushy old battle axe. Who cares if she was 80, it’s kill or be killed in a man’s world.
> 
> Testosterone is powerful hormone.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Either you tell the whole story or you don't. Money is as good a reason to stay for women as any, am I breaking new ground here? 

It's a 20%reason for staying but a 50% root cause in wifey's attitude. 20% vs 50%...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I realize Melani's data is a bit contrived but still if half her not so good experiences are legit from a good looking, socially graceful or astute woman's point of view, this here teenager in a 54 year old's body with looks halfway between Bilbo Baggins and Frank Zappa should have no problem right ?

It's really all about values actually.. Maybe my dream mate would be someone decent looking, 50 give or take 5 years, not very serious attitude towards life, adventurous, likes travel, overeducated, and interested to get to know me as much as I can get to know her (which is quite a lot). Must not be turned off by chaos or by excessive planning, or overthinking. Must be able and willing to draw out emotions good and bad. Must put effort to dress nicely and be comfortable with herself. Income six figures preferred but will take very high five figures and a pair of dachshunds. 

The main difference so far is the drawing out emotions part. Not necessarily sex. That and outlook on life.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

John, I think we get it...you are staying.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> My concern is she's not connected emotionally to any of us, not me, not her kids. Not even herself.


I think this is the most revealing thing you have ever said, john. And I am sure it is very painful for you.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I think this is the most revealing thing you have ever said, john. And I am sure it is very painful for you.



That's basically it. 

If my experience happened at year 5 instead of 25 I likely would have bailed out. No point playing Florence Nightingale or putting up with the antics of someone with the emotional development of a five year old. But it happened at year 25. How much different is it walking out on a new BPD vs walking out on someone with a new physical ailment that can't be fixed after 25 years of a good marriage? 

That's why I know that if and when we split at least I gave it more than a good shot. I keep suggesting therapy while she has awesome insurance - no dice. I tried.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> John, I think we get it...you are staying.



A round of Clairvoyance Potion to the regulars on me 

Tell us, Oh Seers of Things Invisible, out of the admittedly nice female crowd here at TAM, how many meet my criteria? Forget compatibility. If they don't and my bar is too high, can thee point out what expectation(s) if any can be scratches off my bucket date list?


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## ZaphodBeeblebrox (Mar 31, 2013)

If your choice is to stay and be miserable, or leave and hope that you find someone... just leave. And work on yourself. 

There is life after a marriage ends. It's what you make of it. If you do this right, you won't be lonely, and will likely be happier. I already am...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

An extra thought about income requirements  

How many newly single people at my age give or take a decade that hit the dating scene are concerned about potential LTR partners who may be wowed by their prospect's earning potential rather than their personality, charm, dachshunds, or what not?

Real question, seriously.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

John, if you were my friend in real life, I could hook you up with several 50-ish, good looking, horny, DECENT, loving women who have their act together, own their own homes...whatever your criteria, I could find you a woman like this, no problem.

My other job is matchmaker.

(edited to add: this goes for Cletus, too)


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

But I'm not trying to lean you toward leaving either... I think your decision to stay for now is set, and that's what is best for you.

All I'm getting at is that...the world is full of single people of all ages and all types. And I know a bunch of them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> John, if you were my friend in real life, I could hook you up with several 50-ish, good looking, horny, DECENT, loving women who have their act together, own their own homes...whatever your criteria, I could find you a woman like this, no problem.
> 
> My other job is matchmaker.


You are amazing, FW.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> An extra thought about income requirements
> 
> How many newly single people at my age give or take a decade that hit the dating scene are concerned about potential LTR partners who may be wowed by their prospect's earning potential rather than their personality, charm, dachshunds, or what not?
> 
> Real question, seriously.


It is totally true that the older set have these kinds of dating questions and "issues"...and yes, there are people out there in the dating world trying to scam and rob each other in the name of love and sex.

But for the most part...the older set are wiser too and if someone is alert and keen and specifically watching out for certain things, yet still being open to meeting people, then it is pretty easy to see the good eggs and the bad eggs for us.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

John, thanks for being real with us. I hope you feel lighter.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I just got a dozen pics of DesignDaughter's roomies cat. The cat is the size of a microwave oven and not quite friendly if you don't pet him, but melts in your hands if you do pet him. The analogy alone made me happy.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

There's a lotta nice kitties out there, John.


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

I forgot to mention that I like the title of this thread....kind of covert.

Unless you have seen Star Trek II (My favorite), you probably don't understand...I think Captain Kirk got a commendation for original thinking on that test. Very Impressive!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> My other job is matchmaker.
> 
> (edited to add: this goes for Cletus, too)


Ha! Strong words from someone a half hour's drive away.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Funny how my perceptions of 50 year old women have been shaped by PTO moms and cruise passengers...

The PTO moms are too busy competing with their daughters and their husbands secretaries while the cruise pax often travel in packs (girls cruise out?)...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Cletus don't give me the chance...I have already mentally figured where I'd find the right types of women for you. I love working with people locally best. 

But...still I hope you will kinda beg or plead or threaten, or whatever has to happen, to get her and you into some counseling. If you ever did end up throwing in the towel, you will want to say you at least tried counseling. 

And with the right counselor...there really might be some improvement.


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## Oldfaithful (Nov 27, 2013)

How's it going Cletus?


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Cletus said:


> I have no allusions as to my attractiveness to the opposite sex. Middle aged introverted balding gray shortish pudgy men with questionable plumbing don't exactly drawn 'em like flies.


Being that we live in the same state, I was starting to worry that you might be one of my coworkers. But nope, he's a tall, skinny introverted middle aged dude who ain't ever getting any and won't leave over it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Oldfaithful said:


> How's it going Cletus?


Thanks for asking!

First Officer's log, Stardate 02-19-2014

_Condition red. Ship in neutral zone, but no hostile engagement yet. Two Klingon warbirds have decloaked off the port bow. Shields still intact, and there have been no enemy incursions into hostile territory to date. _

We're past the incredulity stage and into the mad at me for never being satisfied stage. The conversation went something like this:

Kang: "It doesn't matter what I do, you'll never be satisfied."

Me: "You're confusing effort with success. Sure, we've tried other things in the past, but none of them stick because you hate all of them. Name one thing that is a routine part of our sex life today that we weren't doing on our first anniversary 28 years ago"

Kang: "Sex for you is just an endless string of acts to cross off some list. Would you really rather do nothing?"

Me: "I'm tired of making love in a straight jacket. So I'm avoiding the temptation that is you because it just turns into a game of remembering to avoid what I'm not allowed to do to keep the peace."

Kang: "Should we see a MC?"

Me: "If you think it's worth the effort. I don't think a counselor will change either of our personalities or sexual preferences much, but I'd give it a shot".

Kang: "Then perhaps it is not yet a good day for you to die!"

...and a whole bunch more of the same round and round that never goes anywhere. 

So I'm researching marriage counselors, trying to find one local with a specialization in sex issues that the wife will find acceptable. Gotta at least try, right?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Being that we live in the same state, I was starting to worry that you might be one of my coworkers. But nope, he's a tall, skinny introverted middle aged dude who ain't ever getting any and won't leave over it.


Now let's be fair! I could be "getting some" if I wanted to, but the issue is more one of quality over quantity. And right now, the quality merits very limited quantities.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Yeah Cletus!

You go boiiiiyyyy!


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## Oldfaithful (Nov 27, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Thanks for asking!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes you should at least try. I dont think that spouses should be able to do whatever they want with the other by any means but most sex therapists would see her as having major problems. That isn't normal. 

I'm just curious, have you tried to get her to go therapy before?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Oldfaithful said:


> Yes you should at least try. I dont think that spouses should be able to do whatever they want with the other by any means but most sex therapists would see her as having major problems. That isn't normal.
> 
> I'm just curious, have you tried to get her to go therapy before?


I want to be very careful here to not make it sound like I'm dragging her in to therapy to get her "fixed". I'm dragging US to therapy for the couples problem we have with mismatched sexual preferences. And no, we've never been before, either of us. 

I expect to have to do at least as much accommodating her preferences as she will mine, but to be truthful, I think I've done a good job of that over the years. Of course, she thinks the same, so we need better tools to meet in the middle or decide that there is no middle in which to meet.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Cletus, please find a good counselor, maybe even both IC and MC.

Have I mentioned before that although I am married to a Sex God and that part of our lives is really good, that we've been in counseling on and off for many years, and we are currently back in?

Sex can be great but if other areas aren't, things are still not going to run smoothly.

You and your wife...if you are LUCKY...then the *only* thing you'll need to work on in counseling is sex. I say lucky, because that can actually be fixed with simple effort and placing value on it (being that there is no trauma, CSA issues, etc.)

Sometimes I wish for easier problems than what my husband and I really have to deal with. I know that won't make sense...but I'm just pointing out that you and your wife have a real shot at this, if you'd both just stick your necks out a bit more. Which includes you Cletus...because although you have likely been a very good husband, there is still the fact that you need help in handling your own emotions about being neglected good sex. The resentment will kill your positive efforts...so it is on you to handle the resentment in a fair way.


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## Oldfaithful (Nov 27, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I want to be very careful here to not make it sound like I'm dragging her in to therapy to get her "fixed". I'm dragging US to therapy for the couples problem we have with mismatched sexual preferences. And no, we've never been before, either of us.
> 
> 
> 
> I expect to have to do at least as much accommodating her preferences as she will mine, but to be truthful, I think I've done a good job of that over the years. Of course, she thinks the same, so we need better tools to meet in the middle or decide that there is no middle in which to meet.




Just from someone who has some education in that area, the counselor will hopefully present it as being mismatched but in reality I think your wife has a sexual dysfunction. I hope it's not but she seems like she has sexual phobias and PTSD.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Oldfaithful said:


> Just from someone who has some education in that area, the counselor will hopefully present it as being mismatched but in reality I think your wife has a sexual dysfunction. I hope it's not but she seems like she has sexual phobias and PTSD.


Please expand.

From what I've gathered, PTSD is not a reasonable explanation without the T, and she claims there was none.

Lots of women don't like giving blowjobs (that's why they're called blowJOBS, after all).
Lots of women don't like receiving oral sex.
Lots of women don't like having their breasts touched sexually
Lots of women don't like the sensation of another's hands on their genitals
Lots of women are not very experimental in the bedroom
Lots of women don't masturbate

I imagine it is pretty rare to get a perfect storm of all of these traits in one individual, but taken separately, none of them seem particularly pathological. 

My wife has been initiating sex on her terms about once a week for a very long time now, which she genuinely enjoys and misses when it's gone. Why, outside of a relationship with a person of dissimilar tastes should she be considered dysfunctional?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Lots of women don't like having their breasts touched sexually
> Lots of women don't like the sensation of another's hands on their genitals
> Lots of women are not very experimental in the bedroom
> 
> Why, outside of a relationship with a person of dissimilar tastes should she be considered dysfunctional?


In terms of the above, I have to disagree with you. The breasts have nerve sensations that connect directly with the genitals. How many men do you know that don't like to have their penises touched? So no Cletus, not lots of women and no, it's not a normal healthy sexual response.

I suspect there was some trauma in her past, that perhaps she isn't fessing up with. Maybe she got caught masturbating and was shamed to high heaven... Who knows, but it ain't normal.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Cletus, you have just listed the ways that lots of women get aroused and enjoy sex. I do think that your wife has some sort of sexual phobia. I hope that your counselor can help her identify what her fears are, why she is not comfortable with her body, and gives you both ways to overcome them. I would look for one who specializes in sexual issues.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Me and Anon will always disagree on this one.

I've known plenty of men and women who simply get nothing out of sex (compared to how an HD person views sex), and this is a normal variation of human sexuality.


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## Oldfaithful (Nov 27, 2013)

But she isn't asexual. That is different. She likes it but only in an extremely confined specific way. 
Maybe she wasn't sexually abused but she was shamed or she saw something she shouldn't have. 
Some people bury abuse or they don't consider anything but rape abuse. 
So if you ask if someone touched them that they didn't want, they say yes but they don't see it as abuse. 
The fact that she can't read a description of oral sex is very strange to me.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Oldfaithful said:


> The fact that she can't read a description of oral sex is very strange to me.


It would be strange for me too, if I assumed everyone should process sexual information like I do, and if I assumed that how I do things should be the measure of how things should be done.

People are different.

Different is good.

In this case, Cletus is going to have to ask his wife to *change* to meet his needs.

Change is good, too.

She may not choose to, but he has the right to ask.


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## Oldfaithful (Nov 27, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> It would be strange for me too, if I assumed everyone should process sexual information like I do, and if I assumed that how I do things should be the measure of how things should be done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes and she has every right to say she won't even try. It might be too much, it might involve opening cans of worms that she wants to keep closed. 

Cletus have a look at this: http://phobias.about.com/od/phobiasatoh/a/Erotophobia.htm


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I trust Cletus' knowledge of his wife and his feeling that she isn't lying about a can of worms....and I also admire his acceptance that this is just how she is without trying to make her "wrong".

Though he will have to ask her to change in order for his needs to be met, I still admire the work he has done on himself to understand that this is just normal for some people, both men and women.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Me and Anon will always disagree on this one.
> 
> I've known plenty of men and women who simply get nothing out of sex (compared to how an HD person views sex), and this is a normal variation of human sexuality.


I'm sure they're out there, but would there really be enough to qualify as 'lots'? Because I've certainly never talked to anyone who felt that way. Even online there aren't many.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Well even if it is only 10% of the population...isn't that still a whole lotta people? One in 10 people you meet?

I personally have known/met lots of them, so that's why I used the word. But I guess lots is not very clear...so that's why I made the guess, probably 10% at least.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Now let's be fair! I could be "getting some" if I wanted to, but the issue is more one of quality over quantity. And right now, the quality merits very limited quantities.


Fair enough. The situation is remarkably similar. Yeah, he can get some but is bored with the little variety he can get.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I suspect there was some trauma in her past, that perhaps she isn't fessing up with. Maybe she got caught masturbating and was shamed to high heaven... Who knows, but it ain't normal.


Barring sex abuse, I would suspect that's the case. (Although I would consider shaming a kid severely is abuse too.)

The reality is that EVERYONE masturbates when they are a little kid. It feels good, so they do it. They quit because they are shamed into not doing it. So many can't remember those early childhood events. They just remember that touching there is very bad. When it is put into someone's mind at such an early age, it becomes dogma.

I have a remarkable memory of things from a very early age. Yep, I remember those events too, when I was caught at a young age. It leads me to:



Anon Pink said:


> How many men do you know that don't like to have their penises touched?


Shaming a girl can keep her from ever enjoying masturbating later. But it will never work on a guy. I didn't masturbate from the events as a toddler until my first wet dream. The shame kept me from ever touching it.

But once a guy reaches puberty, he's going to have an orgasm. It just may be in his sleep that it happens. When you wake up felling that way you think *HOLEY CRAP THAT WAS GOOD.* I became addicted to orgasms that night. No way in hell was anything going to stop me from feeling that feeling again.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Please expand.Lots of women don't like giving blowjobs (that's why they're called blowJOBS, after all).
> Lots of women don't like receiving oral sex.
> Lots of women don't like having their breasts touched sexually
> Lots of women don't like the sensation of another's hands on their genitals
> ...


Hi Cletus,

I am sorry that is your experience, for me it is not the case, I have not known any woman in the biblical sense who has not enjoyed and been active in all of the above. Of course my own sample size is small being around 40 yet all of them enjoyed and did the above.

I have known women who I suspect would not go for any of the above, yet they are the type of women I would never bother to pursue sexually. Where do you find women like that and I am asking seriously, is it a religious hang up thing or something else?

For me I prefer educated and clever women (of course being educated does not always go hand in hand with being clever) who are direct and rather confident in themselves.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Out of a population of over 3 billion women I guess that even .01% can seem like a lot.

But no, I do not believe that a lot of women would be as restricted as Cletus's wife is. My wife is towards that end of the spectrum but not that far.

She does not want her breasts touched. On the other hand, she would not tell me to stop if I wanted to give them some attention. She actually keeps her shirt on during sex even in the summer.

She does not like receiving oral sex. I have offered -she prefers my hand. I bought her a vibrator -she would not use it. 

She never seems to want any variety. If we did the exact same thing every time from here on out that would be fine by her.

She could probably count the number of times she has masturbated.
Although I have not asked her, I doubt once in the past 15 years. 

She does not like giving BJ's although she has been improving on that slowly. We have managed to add oral as a regular part of foreplay and once I was going to skip it but she wanted me to go back and follow the correct procedure. (so I guess that is good)

Regardless of how many women are actually like this Cletus is married to one. My wife did get some therapy on her own and it seemed to help a tiny bit. No sexual abuse that she will talk about. 

My practical side tells me to not push my wife out of her comfort zone unless absolutely necessary and she mostly meets my minimum needs. But I am not so sure that your wife is meeting your minimum needs which I would guess are pretty practical.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Good luck Cletus. Really hope MC actually happens and helps.

I still dont buy the no abuse. Something just doesnt jive.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

I do know some women who were not abused, yet they are not comfortable with their bodies. They dislike getting undressed in women's locker rooms or in front of their husbands, they had trouble dealing with the onset of menstruation, they cringe at any talk of sexual foreplay.

I do hope Cletus, that your wife can figure out what is at the root of her aversion.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

skype said:


> I do know some women who were not abused, yet they are not comfortable with their bodies. They dislike getting undressed in women's locker rooms or in front of their husbands, they had trouble dealing with the onset of menstruation, they cringe at any talk of sexual foreplay.
> 
> I do hope Cletus, that your wife can figure out what is at the root of her aversion.


Maybe no physical abuse then for these women (that they will admit) but maybe mentally somehow?

Thats just a long time to be THAT bottled up for apparently no reason. IMO someone MADE someone this way.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Cletus, I am way behind. 

Did she get unwanted attention because of her early sexual development?

Good luck with MC but be sure to find a person whose #1 is sex. If they list a billion things they allegedly treat, you can bet they aren't good at most and definitely not sex.

I think there is something in her past that's the roadblock.

Are you allowed to get a GF? If yes, divorce her now.

I'm going to catch up now.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Seems a lot of us think there is something in her background...

There are women who say they can't handle the sensations they feel when their breasts are fondled. Some of it might be the way they are being touched. 

I was abused. There are times when the normally incredible sensation is replaced by what I can only describe as physical anxiety. It feels awful. It brings up a physical memory that my mind doesn't even register. So I am in the moment, not flashing back or anything and the touch that is usually like putting gasoline on a fire makes me wince. I close my eyes and want to hide. I'm confused by the unwanted intrusion. It doesn't belong there. It doesn't make sense. So I have to push through that physical anxiety. It doesn't always work. And there was a time way back years ago when I wanted to avoid that bad feeling more than I wanted the good getting.

Avoidance.

She has controlled access to her body to control her feelings. That's my suspicion.

Does she drink? Does she loosen up when she has had a few?

If you will not leave her over this I doubt she will deal with it. Even then she might not. If there is a secret, it might be too painful for her to deal with. 

Is there anyone in her family that she avoids or hates? 

I asked about her imagination. She has one with a purpose. 

How is her sense of humor?

I think it is sad that your relationship is messed up because of this issue. But I would like to suggest that you go to your own therapy to decide if you can live more happily in this marriage. Do you love your wife? How much of this problem is a problem because you have made it one by choosing to focus on it?

What if you stopped coming to TAM and got into your life in a way that didn't involve talking to outsiders, non-professionals about it?

Do you feel worse about this issue now than you did before you came here? 

The whole point is to find happiness. Any happiness derived from being in the company of people who say you have a right to be upset is surely outweighed by the pain of focusing on the issue.


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## Accipiter777 (Jul 22, 2011)

Amplexor said:


> I tried this a number of years ago with my wife. It was a grand disaster. Along with going sexless, I emotionally abandoned her. She did the same and it became a vicious cycle that fed on itself until it all came unraveled. We really didn't give a **** what the other wanted on any level. The primary reason our marriage nearly tanked was not a lack of sex but a lack of understanding each others needs and tending to them.


Hello? Does this voice of experience not issue a good warning? 

Seems Star Trek references are more important.


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> I tried this a number of years ago with my wife. It was a grand disaster. Along with going sexless, I emotionally abandoned her. She did the same and it became a vicious cycle that fed on itself until it all came unraveled. We really didn't give a **** what the other wanted on any level. The primary reason our marriage nearly tanked was not a lack of sex but a lack of understanding each others needs and tending to them.


How did you guys fix it? I am sorry if I missed it. Did one of you have to change?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Accipiter777 said:


> Hello? Does this voice of experience not issue a good warning?
> 
> Seems Star Trek references are more important.


We all deal with our crosses in our own way, don't we?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Accipiter777 said:


> Hello? Does this voice of experience not issue a good warning?
> 
> Seems Star Trek references are more important.


every situation is different and I think Cletus has more than done his fair share of trying to fix things.He has literally bent over for YEARS for this woman. From what I've read,she hasn't changed a thing or even slightly stepped outside her comfort zone to figure out a solution with him. 

After a while,you have to make jokes or sink into a constant state of depression.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Seems a lot of us think there is something in her background...


Then we are at an impasse. If there is something in her background, neither of us is aware of it. My favorite quote about evidence is "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras". As I have no evidence of abuse, the normal variation of human sexuality seems the more likely answer. 



> I think it is sad that your relationship is messed up because of this issue. But I would like to suggest that you go to your own therapy to decide if you can live more happily in this marriage. Do you love your wife? How much of this problem is a problem because you have made it one by choosing to focus on it?


I suppose that's 100% of the problem, which is precisely why I have no intention of trying to "fix" my wife. The unhappiness is all mine, not hers. But, like riding a bike, once you've learned that something like sex can be more fulfilling, passionate, interesting, and varied, you can't unlearn it.



> What if you stopped coming to TAM and got into your life in a way that didn't involve talking to outsiders, non-professionals about it?
> 
> Do you feel worse about this issue now than you did before you came here?


It's a mixed bag. I feel more secure in my own predilections, which are tame in comparison to some of what gets bandied about here. I feel more accepting of my wife''s attitude, which is on the whole much better than the spouses in truly asexual relationships. I NEVER lose sight of the fact that this place draws the "high sexual achievers" and is most decidedly not a random cross section of the public.

So I don't feel better or worse than I did before, but I am more resigned to the reality.



> The whole point is to find happiness. Any happiness derived from being in the company of people who say you have a right to be upset is surely outweighed by the pain of focusing on the issue.


The pain of focusing on the issue predates my arrival here by almost 30 years. Like any problem, its importance in my life rises and falls with the seasons. I think I have a good bead on the pulse of this divorce happy oversexed whiner's club, of which I am a member with all rights and benefits reserved.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

I do not really buy idea that past events are the only thing that shapes human behavior. 

To believe that would be to completely disregard the evidence and science. 

We know for a fact that there are all sorts of variations in brains. They are not all identical vessels which contain different information.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Someone rang?

Brains work the same for most people as the same basic mental models are there regardless of upbringing. 

The results are different because the parameters we pass to those models, or the models we select to use in specific situations, are different.

The latter are oft influenced by culture and expectations (population stereotypes).. 

Driving does not change drastically between the UK and Kansas. One is left side drive the other right side,


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

"Brains work the same for most people"

I suppose that is true but then an individual is not "Most People"


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's true, science works with populations. But based on how a population reacts one can make a fairly good estimate of how the individual from the population will react.

Today's teenager taking girl to prom is using mental processes not unlike those from 10,000 BC dragging girl to cave. Only the parameters - limits of behavior and dating rituals established by culture for example - change. The basic model, see girl, like girl, talk to girl, etcetera really is the same, standard goal seeking behavior.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Has your wife tried to talk to you about this yet, Cletus? Has she initiated any more?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Except that since we know that outside stimulus affects the brain and neuroplasticity can make changes to react to that stimulus...how is the cave the same as the prom again?


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Science works because it is logical
Generalities work with groups like populations because there is a range of conditions.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Except that since we know that outside stimulus affects the brain and neuroplasticity can make changes to react to that stimulus...how is the cave the same as the prom again?



As I said, the basic goal seeking model is the same in both. It hasn't changed much. What changes is the outside stimuli - culture for example.

Try to separate the model from the model parameters. 

200 years ago the model said to go to the market to buy stuff so you saddle up and go to town. 100 years ago you lived in a brownstone and walked to the market. Today you drive. The basic model is the same, satisfy a particular goal (goal seeking behavior). The way you do this is determined by what is available, horse, trolley, car, or fedex.

The basic mental model is that of the world around us. The geography or terrain or weather changes but those are parameters. A mental model is really all about how we think and act in a particular and specific situation providing inputs explicitly (i.e. I want to go out with a girl or I want some flour and nails from the general store)

Culture, education, experience and other factors affect the process all in their own ways of course.

Fun stuff, a lot of what I do at work is based on the above...


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Then we are at an impasse. If there is something in her background, neither of us is aware of it. My favorite quote about evidence is "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras". As I have no evidence of abuse, the normal variation of human sexuality seems the more likely answer.


Neither of you are aware of it, or will admit to it. People take sh!t to the grave with them all the time. Not a guarantee but this is always a posibility.

To me I guess this seems outside the range of normal variation of human sexuality. That is normal variation not caused by abuse or a REALLY conservative upbringing regarding sex. You've been around her family i assume? They really or conservative or more depraved like most of us on TAM?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john...When they someday dig up a perfectly preserved cave man and unfreeze him, he lives through it, and then is able to be studied...and it is shown that his brain works EXACTLY like ours does...I'll buy your story.

Otherwise...I'm fine with the stuff we know about NOW. I reject the idea that this means we know that THEN was exactly the same as NOW.

Cave =/= Prom


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> john...When they someday dig up a perfectly preserved cave man and unfreeze him, he lives through it, and then is able to be studied...and it is shown that his brain works EXACTLY like ours does...I'll buy your story.
> 
> Otherwise...I'm fine with the stuff we know about NOW. I reject the idea that this means we know that THEN was exactly the same as NOW.
> 
> Cave =/= Prom


Kind of off topic but its almost like you seem insulted to think that humans a millenia ago had brains that functioned like our do. I dont get how anything John said was crazy.

Cave people and later may have been hairier than us, shorter than us, and less educated than us. But why would their brains function much differently from ours?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

FW, I understand the skepticism. The refrain in many lectures from undergrad to phd level was always "and this is how we think it works " 

I mean, cognitive psychology is a lot of theory that occasionally gets validated by clever experiments. But it's not like there's a little computer in our heads that runs the exact same program for everyone. Some things are common like writing - some are common across species (yawning) and so on. You'd be amazed as to what you can learn from blinking or tapping your fingers. 

Or the areas where all that applies. For example we all have a mental model or abstraction of how an elevator works. There's a button for this, another for that, buttons for the floors, stop, alert, etcetera. I could design a better control panel with fewer buttons but then people would freak out because it is not what they're expecting (expectations). 

Fun stuff. Apologies got the micro hijack


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Middle Of Everything...the reason it is an offensive idea is because there is an evo-pysche agenda which tries to tell us that cave men preferred play boy bunnies, and that's why men nowadays do, too. But not to worry because all women are hypergamous wh*res anyway. This is all attributed to the weird science they use.

The reason their brains would function differently than ours is due to neuroplasticity.

That is not the same as what John is saying, though (which I do understand, John).


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Yes I suppose the brain of a human 100,000 years ago is essentially the same as a modern human.

But each brain is not identical, some are wired differently. We do not have identical genetics. We are not exposed to identical physical environments. And then as FW mentioned we also have adaptive genetics where even after you are born your body can change due to circumstance.

BPD is probably not caused by bad thoughts.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I would like to know about her family and if there is anyone she avoids or hates.

Developing early could also play into this.

Tell me though, how is it you came to know you can have more sexual pleasure than you have with her? It's this real life experience?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> I would like to know about her family and if there is anyone she avoids or hates.
> 
> Developing early could also play into this.
> 
> Tell me though, how is it you came to know you can have more sexual pleasure than you have with her? It's this real life experience?


No. She comes from an intact family, the oldest of 4 with 3 brothers. She goes out of her way to spend time with all 3, and just spent a week out-of-state with 2 of the 3. She is closest to the one who is a doctor, tolerates the psycho conspiracy theory drunk, and is decidedly less attached to the arch-conservative social climber. Her parents have been a close part of the family since we first met. She is as comfortable around all of them as I can imagine - far more so than I am with my family and their various mental illnesses. 

My personal experience comes from my relationships prior to our marriage - one a long term girlfriend who was very sexual, and a small handful of shorter term flings.


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## Oldfaithful (Nov 27, 2013)

Cletus said:


> No. She comes from an intact family, the oldest of 4 with 3 brothers. She goes out of her way to spend time with all 3, and just spent a week out-of-state with 2 of the 3. She is closest to the one who is a doctor, tolerates the psycho conspiracy theory drunk, and is decidedly less attached to the arch-conservative social climber. Her parents have been a close part of the family since we first met. She is as comfortable around all of them as I can imagine - far more so than I am with my family and their various mental illnesses.
> 
> 
> 
> My personal experience comes from my relationships prior to our marriage - one a long term girlfriend who was very sexual, and a small handful of shorter term flings.



Do you ever think maybe she didn't want to have sex before marriage because she knew she was going to be a disappointment?


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

Ouch......why would a woman do that?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Bait, switch, etc


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In general people don't think. They take actions that are anywhere between what the duck and mindless then wonder about the outcome. People also see what they want to see and stick their head in the sand. 

In many of the issues we read here it's all out in black and white if we took the time to think it thru...


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

john117 said:


> Bait, switch, etc


I still don't know how that would work...I mean a woman would really be thinking as she married her dream man .....that she would stop wanting him ....his body and sex....??????


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

over20 said:


> I still don't know how that would work...I mean a woman would really be thinking as she married her dream man .....that she would stop wanting him ....his body and sex....??????


Or just never wanted sex beyond making babies.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Remember, I'm not in an asexual relationship. I have a wife who likes sex about once a week as long as it's done the way she likes it. I don't think she thought that she would be bad in bed when we got married, because she's not bad at what she defines to be happy married sex life. 

If anything, she suffered from a terminal case of pre-marital lack of imagination. She's not comfortable with erotic material. She's never seen even a soft core pornographic film. She sees sex as through the wrong end of the looking glass.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Cletus said:


> If anything, she suffered from a terminal case of pre-marital lack of imagination. She's not comfortable with erotic material. She's never seen even a soft core pornographic film. She sees sex as through the wrong end of the looking glass.


It would be so interesting to read the minds of people like this. It frustrates me that I can't understand them.What takes a person from not being comfortable with erotic material to giving it a try to enjoying it fully? What stops a person from making that transition? What makes them want to make the transition? 

So many questions.Rarely a good answer.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> It would be so interesting to read the minds of people like this. It frustrates me that I can't understand them.What takes a person from not being comfortable with erotic material to giving it a try to enjoying it fully? What stops a person from making that transition? What makes them want to make the transition?
> 
> So many questions.Rarely a good answer.


To people like us, there's no answer. Sex is just so damn cool that we want to explore it, breathe it in, discover all that it has to offer, and wallow in the afterglow. 

But then, a lot of people don't understand why I like math and programming either.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I wonder if Giro Flee might answer that for us, Scarlett? If you are reading Giro?


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> Or just never wanted sex beyond making babies.


Oh...I never thought of it like that...good point!

That's really sad actually...


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Cletus said:


> No. She comes from an intact family, the oldest of 4 with 3 brothers. She goes out of her way to spend time with all 3, and just spent a week out-of-state with 2 of the 3. .


I was thinking more about extended family. Or friends of her parents. 

I'm naturally suspicious. Do you really believe she's never seen even soft porn? Really?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> I was thinking more about extended family. Or friends of her parents.
> 
> I'm naturally suspicious. Do you really believe she's never seen even soft porn? Really?


If I had a bone to throw you, I would have done it by now. 

Far as I know, her experience with sex in cinema is limited to what you see in an R rated movie and a handful of educational videos in her college human sexuality class. If she ever ran across anything else, you can bet she turned it off immediately.

Ya know, I'm a skeptic by nature too, but wow...


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Remember, I'm not in an asexual relationship. I have a wife who likes sex about once a week as long as it's done the way she likes it.


I was responding to over20 and her question. Yep, you've made it clear that your wife likes it, but what she likes is way too boring (and I'd be on the same page).



Cletus said:


> I don't think she thought that she would be bad in bed when we got married, because she's not bad at what she defines to be happy married sex life.


Does she still think this? That you're just the pervert and she's fine.



Cletus said:


> If anything, she suffered from a terminal case of pre-marital lack of imagination. She's not comfortable with erotic material. She's never seen even a soft core pornographic film. She sees sex as through the wrong end of the looking glass.


Well "wrong end" is judgmental. That's from a guy who's on the same end as you.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Does she still think this? That you're just the pervert and she's fine.


I'd have to say yes. Which is part of why we'll be going to counseling, because no matter how hard I've tried, I have been unable to convey even a fundamental understanding of what people unlike her, or at least someone like me, values in sex.

There's her, and there's them, and she can't differentiate between someone who wants more variety in his sex life and someone who wants to have sex in public, to use an example that came up in the last two weeks.



> Well "wrong end" is judgmental. That's from a guy who's on the same end as you.


The wrong end was in reference to using a looking glass backwards, which is objectively wrong for its intended purpose. The result is a pretty warped view of reality. I'll stand by that judgment.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cletus said:


> There's her, and there's them, and she can't differentiate between someone who wants more variety in his sex life and someone who wants to have sex in public, to use an example that came up in the last two weeks.


:rofl:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I have a lot of hope for you guys, Cletus.

Because your wife is a sexual person...she is just so self-limited.

When a health care professional asks her point blank "why do you feel that way?" on some of this stuff (or however they would say it) her answers being under scrutiny will feel very uncomfortable...and THEN she might actually be able to mine out a real answer. Without being made uncomfortable, we can't really grow.

You asking her never made her uncomfortable, because in her mind, she is "right". When a professional will not agree that she is "right", it will (hopefully) make her uncomfortable.

And some people would bolt from the process at that point...but I don't think she will. I think she will buck like a horse about it, but then...something can crack finally. 

When she gets to the point when she does finally ask HERSELF honestly "why DO I think this way?" her own answers will (hopefully) be something like "I don't know I just always thought that...." and when whatever comes after "that" comes out, she will realize all she did was set herself up some kind of limitation when she was young.

(That's my guess).

A lot of people cling to what/who they think they are and hold it up like a badge.

Well, I just always felt that....

That's just not how I roll....

I was raised to....

In MY day, ladies didn't....

Anyone who does x,y,z is NOT like me....

...................................................................

We cling to these things as if they are sooooooo important. But are they?

Can't we grow and examine our own long held beliefs about ourselves and the world?

Some people think it is wise and noble to never change. But why?

This applies to a whole lot of things.

I'm not saying we aren't who we are and don't like the things we like. But why would it be set in stone?


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

I agree with FW. I hope the counselor gives her exercises to explore her sexuality, and I hope that she is open to understanding why she limits herself the way that she does.

Cletus, I know this is projecting, but she sounds like some women in my extended family. Does she dislike others touching or hugging her? Does she keep herself closed off emotionally from others, except for a select few people?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

skype said:


> Cletus, I know this is projecting, but she sounds like some women in my extended family. Does she dislike others touching or hugging her?


No, not that I've seen. Her family isn't one of those touchy-feely types that won't let you out the door without a grope, but I'd say she has the "normal" amount of physical contact with others. She's very touchy with me. 



> Does she keep herself closed off emotionally from others, except for a select few people?


No, that would be me you're referring to. We are both introverts as measured by Meiers-Briggs - her something like 20%, me closer to 80%. I've never noticed anything I considered unusual in her interactions with family, friends, or strangers.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Hmm, then it does make me wonder what is going on with her. Perhaps it is as you said, she just doesn't have a strong imagination, and so doesn't know how to conjure up a variety of sexual thoughts. I do hope the counselor can get her to explore how to try new things.

One more thought--would you say that she is rather child-like? Perhaps she never matured sexually?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

To be totally honest...I don't quite get why this is so "odd" to so many people. It is actually fairly common, especially for people in Cletus's age group.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> To be totally honest...I don't quite get why this is so "odd" to so many people. It is actually fairly common, especially for people in Cletus's age group.


Yeah, me too. I appreciate all the discussion, but I'm left wondering why I have to do so much 'splainin'. Are people really not familiar with those who are somewhat sexually constipated?


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> To be totally honest...I don't quite get why this is so "odd" to so many people. It is actually fairly common, especially for people in Cletus's age group.


So do you think they are wasting their time with sexual counseling? That there is no hope for growth or change from Mrs. Cletus?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

How did you get that out of what I said, skype?


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> How did you get that out of what I said, skype?


If it is common for 50 year olds to not want to be touched sexually, to want only missionary position, to not want to touch their husband, how can counseling change what is normal and ordinary?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Because she only "believes" these things. Beliefs can and do change all the time. And because her husband has corralled her into counseling - - which puts everything in a new light for HER.

It isn't going to be easy, but she can change these things BECAUSE regardless of her limitations, she is a sexual person. She likes sex. She has O's. She will initiate.

She simply hasn't challenged any of her own beliefs before now.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> A lot of people cling to what/who they think they are and hold it up like a badge.
> 
> Well, I just always felt that....
> 
> ...


Yeah, I really can identify with that. My wife had certain boundaries, and investigating them was off the table. She did have a 'good girl' line she didn't want to cross on certain things.

I've pushed her on many items. She budged on some. The big thing was her mid life uptick in desire caused her to relax a lot. She REALLY enjoys it now. A big one is she didn't seem to see the big deal about oral. She was too uptight to enjoy it. Now she really wants it.

One she still has an issue with is dirty talk. It turns her on, but then she feels bad about having enjoyed it.



Faithful Wife said:


> We cling to these things as if they are sooooooo important. But are they?
> 
> I'm not saying we aren't who we are and don't like the things we like. But why would it be set in stone?


I've asked that question SOOOOO many times. I usually say things like "we have 3 walking advertisements that we have sex. We're committed to being married for life, sexual partners for life. Why are you still uncomfortable about things you physically like?"


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Yeah, me too. I appreciate all the discussion, but I'm left wondering why I have to do so much 'splainin'. Are people really not familiar with those who are somewhat sexually constipated?


I can identify with it. I see it as having come from my MIL, and pushed into my wife. I'd bet if she married a missionary only guy, she'd have gone her entire life without breaking out of that shell. I've broken her of those ideas though .

Neither of my daughters will be that way. Part of my wife's discomfort is that she is awkward talking to either of them, but I'm most certainly not. 

I've told them I will honestly answer any question they ask, and I will not judge them, nor love them any less based on what they do.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cletus,
For some reason, on this site sexual abuse is assumed to be the default culprit for LD/sexual dysfunction. 

People come wired with a LOT of variation. 

Seems like C2 is wired with a narrow comfort zone, a minimal desire to please (in bed) and some control issues. 

I understand why the combination of her tight control over both the schedule and your actual activities is demoralizing.

Her offer of counseling is a HUGE act of good will. I believe she understands that a therapist is going to ask both of you to make concessions. Yes - she expects the therapist to ask her to do more than she currently is, just as she expects that person to persuade you to accept less than you want. 

So - ummm - I have as the Brits say, a close connection. Handsome devil. Very likable to boot. Hs girlfriends have ranged from 8's to 9's. Thing is he has OCD. So I am guessing that a lot of sexual activities are a no-go for him. He's never been abused. 

Given that, have you thought about what your priorities are with regard to C2? 

FWIW: If anything happened to M2, I would be ok with a partner who clearly liked: 
- receiving manual/oral and at least a few positions of intercourse 
- touching me with her hands 

That said - perhaps you might consider a compromise that includes:
- one day a week where you initiate and C2 responds with a loving heart and genuine commitment - while Sundays continue to happen
- either Sunday or the other night of the week, C2 provides you with a nice amount of manual stipulation prior to intercourse
- one extra position for intercourse that she is ok with, even if thats not the position you finish in......






Cletus said:


> Yeah, me too. I appreciate all the discussion, but I'm left wondering why I have to do so much 'splainin'. Are people really not familiar with those who are somewhat sexually constipated?


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Yeah, me too. I appreciate all the discussion, but I'm left wondering why I have to do so much 'splainin'. Are people really not familiar with those who are somewhat sexually constipated?


I think so Cletus. Some people have no experience with this type of person. 

You have to admit that your wife is at the fairly far end of the scale. 

Vs. say LG's wife who probably was not all that inhibited but simply was happy with missionary and lacked a partner that pushed her to get out of her comfort zone.

My wife seeked counseling on her own and her views on oral sex have changed quite a bit over the past four years.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Many (MOST?) people are fear driven. 

* What does it mean if I like X? Does that make me a <label>? 
* What happens if it turns out I like X? <label>
* I'm afraid to let him know I've changed my mind and want to try X. That means I was wrong for all of those years. 
* I did X with someone else. I wanted H to think I was a good girl. If I tell him I like X, he might find out about my past. Then what?
* I did get turned on when I saw that movie. It scared me. I am against that sort of thing. 

It is a shame Cletus' wife turned against religion. There are a lot of recent books where the place of sex in marriage is discussed. There are also Christian therapists who are pushing the boundaries of sex in marriage by encouraging stronger marital bonds via sex. 

I have been laughed at and beaten up when I've suggested people go to Christian therapists when it is the woman who is either LD or afraid of sex. But I think that Christian therapists have a special understanding of guilt that doesn't come with the judgment of secular therapists.

Yes, I said judgment. 

Going to a therapist doesn't mean jack unless she is going to be open to suggestion. That's why it is so important they find a therapist that she can relate to. Someone she trusts and believes. 

You simply cannot change if you don't believe.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Cletus -- I believe there are a lot of people who are "constipated" as you say. But I also believe there are a lot of reasons they are that way and trying to get at the root of it isn't easy. You have a belief that your wife is this way just because she is this way. What if your belief isn't correct? What if you think you know something but you don't really know it?

There are so many people who think they know their spouse but don't really know them. Avoiders. People who have shame issues. People who have been abused. 

I've asked the questions I've asked to try to see if there is something underlying your wife's resistance that you hadn't thought about. I still worry that you trust her too much to believe that you don't know everything. Her not telling you something important from her past doesn't make her a deceitful person. Fear is powerful stuff.

But, despite that small worry, I am inclined to believe you are right. I hope so for her sake.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

I understand your point about Christian therapists, Clipclop. One of my favorite links about male sexuality comes from Focus on the Family:

Understanding Your Husband's Sexual Needs - Focus on the Family

But the wrong Christian therapist could be disastrous. I think someone who specializes in sexual issues would be better, without the context of religion.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cletus,
Outside the bedroom is she generally:
- Controlling or
- OCD like in certain contexts 
- Enmeshed in a religious belief that 'good girls' don't like sex very much, and certainly limit their activities to very vanilla stuff

How adventurous is she in non sexual situations?

How adventurous has she been historically when it comes to trying new foods? 

How judgmental of women who dress/act provocatively? 





Cletus said:


> No, not that I've seen. Her family isn't one of those touchy-feely types that won't let you out the door without a grope, but I'd say she has the "normal" amount of physical contact with others. She's very touchy with me.
> 
> 
> 
> No, that would be me you're referring to. We are both introverts as measured by Meiers-Briggs - her something like 20%, me closer to 80%. I've never noticed anything I considered unusual in her interactions with family, friends, or strangers.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm wondering if a lot of the posters on this thread are under 30 or something? :scratchhead:

Women my age and older usually were raised by women who, although might be sexual, just did not expand that sexuality past closed bedroom doors...and even behind those doors, it wasn't necessarily going to be very sexy.

In fact, being sexy itself was quite suspect.

The thing is...sex can still be VERY VERY good even without any flair or sexy sutff added. So these women weren't totally frigid prudes who refused sex. They were just normal women, who liked sex, had sex, loved their husbands...but weren't sexy. Didn't act sexy.

Back in the day...being sexy suggested much more about you than just you are fun. Being sexy meant you were promiscuous. It also meant you had low character. You could get away with it if you were Cher because you were on TV. 

If you happened to be a gorgeous bombshell and were not a TV or movie star, you were expected to dim down your sexiness.

It just wasn't the same as it is now...but that doesn't mean no one had sex or that the sex wasn't good. My mom and my friends moms were sexual people. 

Being too sexy used to be associated with being promiscuous.

So these women learned not to be too sexy...not because they were necessarily ashamed of themselves, but because of the association.

MEN felt this way, too, by the way. Many men were not all about buying sex toys, porn and what not...not because they would not have been interested if it was available, but because the world just wasn't "there" yet.

In the case of Mr. and Mrs. Cletus, just because he isn't still stuck in the 70's mindset and she is, doesn't mean he is right and she is wrong. They are mismatched, that's it. It doesn't mean either of them are broken.

It could just as easily have been him that is less sexy and her that is more sexy, like Miss Scarlett's case (even though they are a bit younger).

I wish some of you youngun's knew what the world was like before...just so you would have some point of reference.

One of my mom's best friends when I was in HS was a totally average, no make up wearing school teacher. Moderately feminist, very stoic and calm. Would have never expanded her sexuality or sexiness, EVER. Yet told my mom she was so orgasmic she sometimes had them while just sitting around and squirming in her seat a bit. She liked sex with her husband but never initiated and would have had less sex if he had initiated less. IOW, she was HIGHLY sexually capable, yet didn't really want to bother with it. 

If you saw her walking down the street you would have assumed she had never had sex or an O in her life.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm wondering if a lot of the posters on this thread are under 30 or something? :scratchhead:
> 
> Women my age and older usually were raised by women who, although might be sexual, just did not expand that sexuality past closed bedroom doors...and even behind those doors, it wasn't necessarily going to be very sexy.
> 
> ...


That sure doesn't sound like the 1970s I lived through. Those descriptions sure don't fit the women I knew in the 1970s. Sexy was suspect? That's news to me.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

I was thinking the same thing. Birth control pills from the '60s were the start of the sexual revolution. Mrs. Cletus' issues are personal, not generational.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Were you young in the 70's or a married adult with children?

I was talking about our mothers. The young people were getting it on with each other everywhere...but not all of them. Their parents were quietly reading books and watching Johnny Carson.

Some of us emulated our mothers and actually followed and respected their sexual example, as I suspect Cletus's wife did. 

I personally was a sexed crazed horn dog in the 70's and 80's and beyond (even though I wasn't even in HS yet in the 70's), and this was NOT my mother's example. But many friends of mine were happy to comply with their mother's example.

Didn't you guys watch That 70's Show?

Are you saying his mom was a wild sexy woman?

She wasn't at all. Yet we didn't necessarily assume she wasn't sexual, just not sexy.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I don't know. I'm 41, and Cletus's wife seems really unusual to me. My mother is in her 60s, and she's very sexual. We don't talk explicitly, but yeah, had the usual oops, should have knocked! when I was growing up.

As did my friends. Plus my parents had friends who lived in communes and in group marriage arrangements. 

Maybe it's because my country is pretty secular.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

We sent all such people to Oregon


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I don't know much about Australia but I do think that overall, you guys are MUCH more cultured, accepting, and aware than the typical folks here. My BFF lived there for 2 years and just recently moved back, so my thoughts are mostly coming from that.

But my of the adult women who had children in the 70's weren't like Cher. Yes they had sex and were sexual. But they weren't going to expand their sexual boundaries by much, and their husbands typically didn't ask them to.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Everyone has questions, so I guess I'll start answering them as best I can. No one wants to read this whole bloody thing, but this saves me from portioning it out piecemeal. 

*History* - born to a very run-of-the-mill traditional family with 4 children. Her mother is kind and caring who became a nurse late in life after raising her brood. She is very religious, having converted to Mormonism from Catholicism in what was apparently a very difficult time for the family. Dad is a bombastic sports aficionado who had much more in common with the boys than the girl in the family, so mom played the bigger role growing up. I know all of them well, and while it's no Cleaver family, they had what I would say was a pretty routine American family experience. No abuse has ever been hinted at. Her background is a helluva lot more normal than is mine.

*Sexual past*
My wife was not sexually active as a teenager, although she was attractive and had the normal string of boyfriends. She had the mindset hinted at by FW above - that good girls waited until marriage, that good boys were willing to wait for them, but there was nothing wrong with a good makeout session on the couch, as long as it didn't turn overtly sexual. She was not a virgin when we married - she had one night with one partner, which she regretted. I don't know too many details since she's not very interested in divulging them. 

*Married life and sex*
We were married young (22/23). We dated about 18 months before getting married. We did not cohabitate, although I periodically stayed the night in the same bed at her apartment. During our engagement, while she was still living at home with her parents, we got stuck because of weather out of town and had to get a hotel room. She called home to inform her parents and did some tap dancing on the phone to ensure her mother that nothing untoward was happening. She was still being a Good Girl.

So we had almost no sexual contact prior to our wedding night. I did get her into a sexy nightie for some pictures before the wedding, including a couple without the nightie, but looking back on the incident I think it was much more a concession to me than a good idea to her. I think she probably resented it. I do remember is getting hot and heavy in what turned into a dry hump on the couch, to our mutual satisfaction. But only that one time. 

On our wedding night, she was very nervous. We got to the hotel, complete with a Jacuzzi tub. I just remembered this very minute - she asked if we could wear swimsuits in the tub instead of bathing naked. That surprised me, but Mr. Nice Guy said that would be fine if it put her at ease. When I started making a move towards consummating our marriage, she asked if we couldn't get a little sleep first after a very long day. She was pretty clearly terrified of the upcoming rite of passage, delaying it as much as possible. We had sex just about daily over our honeymoon, but it was clearly at least as much out of a sense of duty on her part - I distinctly remember asking if she'd rather take the night off once, and the response was "If we're going to this for the rest of our life, we might as well learn to do it right".

So our routine, which has hardly varied since, was established in that first two weeks. She had some trouble achieving an orgasm from PIV alone, so I was asked to use a hand between us while still inside of her (it's a little awkward with your hand backward), but it worked. After about a year, we had become good enough with coital alignment and practice that orgasms came with ease. That's when we entered the implicit "if it ain't broke, don't fix it stage". I was young enough to be thankful to be getting anything, so the complaints were too few and too far between. I thought that time and experience would allow incremental change. As we entered our 30's, she became frequently multi-orgasmic, all through the same tried and true methods that we'd perfected over the last 10 years and through my willingness to learn technique and control.

Throughout our marriage, she has shown an aversion to all things sexual. She gets uncomfortable in a movie with explicit sex (R rated stuff, not pornography, which she has never seen). She can't read erotica - "50 Shades" was tossed on the floor at the description of a bj and never finished. We got a copy of "101 Nights of Great Sex" and found that there were maybe a half dozen that she was willing to try, and all of those were the ones that did not require any real experimentation. She finds many sex acts to have a high ick factor, sort of like how I might think of licking a slug, for an apt simile. She likes touch, massage, and would probably sell a child for a really good foot rub, but doesn't like hands on sexual body parts. As in actually doesn't like the sensation, not just the idea, by all reports. A massage in which I let my hands wander too much is guaranteed to turn into a fight. "The only thing I want touching me that way is your penis". Her favorite place to be touched during sex is on her face. 

The only other sex act that I get once in a while is a hand job for my birthday or other special occasion, which she doesn't seem to enjoy (not the way I enjoy giving pleasure to a partner) but doesn't really seem to be bothered by either. I have introduced a toy or two into the mix, especially since I have now lost some of my former length and girth from a mild case of Peyronie's. A flexible c0ck ring with a bullet was OK. We have a We Vibe II that is better than OK. The key prerequisite for the addition of a toy is that it be used only as an adjunct for intercourse, not as a replacement for or prelude to the main event. 

Foreplay is kissing and touching anywhere but the Avoidance Zones. She will touch me explicitly for some time before sex, but mouths are for faces only. She gets bored with foreplay very, very quickly. 

She has tried more things in our marriage than it probably sounds like I give credit for, but most have been failures. That's part of the disconnect - she thinks I'll never be satisfied, and I think that continually trying but perpetually failing doesn't move the yard sticks. 

*Personality*
I call her Princess Polly Prissy Pants in jest. She loves to be idolized as my wife and treated as something special and irreplaceable. She doesn't necessarily _expect_ doors to be held open, but appreciates it when they are. Gifts and tokens of appreciation are hugely important. Missing an anniversary or a birthday is tantamount to abuse. They are also a big challenge for me, being the most independent personality type of in the Meiers-Briggs world. We are both introverts, me significantly more than her. We are both conflict avoiders, though I have changed that a bit over the last decade. Fights and slights can linger longer than they probably should. We are both very much duty oriented, understanding that a successful marriage requires each to do our parts - from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

She is not afraid of trying new things. She's very much a foody, and we have expanded our menu both in and out of the home well beyond our upbringing. She likes to travel. She is a complete scaredy-cat about anything she views as remotely dangerous, though I did finally get her to take day trips and even a vacation to Yellowstone on the back of my motorcycle, something she would be far too afraid to do on her own. 

As a teacher by training, she can be a little controlling, especially with our (now grown) children. She does not try to control me except in the bedroom, although as many who are married to a teacher understand, she can be a little paternalistic. This is something she knows about and has actively worked on improving, with success. 

She has accepted with seemingly little resistance that my daughter and son are both living with their significant others and are sexually active. We've discussed it, and she fully understands now that failure to learn important things about your future mate can cause hardship down the road.

In public dress, she is conservative. If she wears a low cut blouse out to a restaurant, she is constantly (to the point of preoccupation) pulling it up to make sure no naughty bits are showing. She does not consider her body desirable, though she doesn't hide it or button it away either. She will dress and undress with me in the room. We sleep naked every night. She will once in a great while wear "good girl" sexy bedroom attire to signal interest.

She is pragmatic, loyal, and forgiving in her personal relationships with family. In 2005, I succumbed to the advances of an female acquaintance and had a ONS. I was contrite, we worked through the pain and never seriously considered separating, but I vowed to be more forthright in working on my unmet needs at home after a suitable healing time, which is part of what brought me to this place some time ago. At that point, marriage counseling was discussed, but she was afraid that the most likely outcome was that a counselor would advise us to split up rather than say together, so it never happened, and I figured it wasn't the time to exert leverage I didn't deserve. Some of that reluctance seems to have gone away now. 

Now if that's not enough information for ya'll, I don't know what else to say. Sorry you had to wade through that.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes we do want to read it Cletus...we're relationship gossip vampires.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I didn't know about the ONS...wow.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Thanks, Cletus, it helps to get a snapshot of her personality. I have some ideas, but I would just be projecting, so I'll refrain from blathering on. Make sure you both like the counselor, and find another one if you think he/she is not getting to the root of the problem.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Didn't you guys watch That 70's Show?
> 
> Are you saying his mom was a wild sexy woman?
> 
> She wasn't at all. Yet we didn't necessarily assume she wasn't sexual, just not sexy.


You're kidding, right? Kitty Forman was sexy as hell! Total milf. And always with the innuendo.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

I wonder what Counselor Troy would make of this?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You're kidding, right? Kitty Forman was sexy as hell! Total milf. And always with the innuendo.


LOL! Gotta admit, it has been so long since I watched it, I do not remember her "persona". She was making innuendos all the time? I will take your word for it, I really don't remember.

While I agree she is sexy as hell....she really wasn't presented that way. All buttoned up on her poly pantsuits and all. 

IMO, women are sexy even when they try to hide it in poly pantsuits.

I'm pretty sure you did catch the drift of my message, even though I apparently got Sex Kitty Forman's persona wrong.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

skype said:


> I wonder what Counselor Troy would make of this?


Whatever she'd have to say, I'd still want to strangler her for the way she said it.

I always sorta hoped Worf gave her a good taste of what she so desperately needed.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Whatever she'd have to say, I'd still want to strangler her for the way she said it.
> 
> I always sorta hoped Worf gave her a good taste of what she so desperately needed.


Nooo! She was so beautiful and wise! Had a very tight uniform, of course.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cletus,
That was beautifully written. Truly - you married well. 

And I think your W is willing to let a therapist help the two of you. 




Cletus said:


> Everyone has questions, so I guess I'll start answering them as best I can. No one wants to read this whole bloody thing, but this saves me from portioning it out piecemeal.
> 
> *History* - born to a very run-of-the-mill traditional family with 4 children. Her mother is kind and caring who became a nurse late in life after raising her brood. She is very religious, having converted to Mormonism from Catholicism in what was apparently a very difficult time for the family. Dad is a bombastic sports aficionado who had much more in common with the boys than the girl in the family, so mom played the bigger role growing up. I know all of them well, and while it's no Cleaver family, they had what I would say was a pretty routine American family experience. No abuse has ever been hinted at. Her background is a helluva lot more normal than is mine.
> 
> ...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Cletus,
> That was beautifully written. Truly - you married well.
> 
> And I think your W is willing to let a therapist help the two of you.


Thank you, and yes I did. Which is why I don't seriously consider throwing it away.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Wow Cletus! That is some extremely well thought out biographical details! 

I don't feel it's appropriate to comment on any of it. But I have to giggle at the Princess Polly prissy pants moniker. I have a daughter like that. Mind if I borrow it?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

How emotionally vested or connected are you two? Don't say about finishing each other's sentences - my lab crew does that - or desire driven aspects of your relationship. You covered this quite well. 

The last few years have taught me that it's the emotional connection that is the deal breaker, not the physical aspects like sex. Took me a while to visualize it tho.

Can you project her and yourself 20 years from now? Do you have an easy time reaching joint decisions or is it always a struggle? Do you feel for each other?

Does she care about the stuff you do for fun? Do you for hers? Do you feel like intellectual equals? Can you discuss some deep topic of common interest or say politics without coming to virtual blows? That's really what I see as emotional connection. 

He11, we used to laugh about emotional connections in high school, but that's what it really is. 

In my first 25 years I had a decent EC with my wife. Not a perfect one, probably not even a good one, but a decent one. I never thought about it much till it hit the fan and I tried to see what's different. 

When I was in my youth the year before I came to the USA for college I dated (probably 'dated' is more apt) girl who was a CSA survivor, and a bad case of that too. My favorite aunt was her social case worker's manager and I got lots of intel (thank you HIPPA) and it was not good. We spent hours and hours talking, and not about ourselves either. About everything. She put the idea of studying psychology into my head. Physically we never advanced much beyond holding hands, CSA be darned, but she was it. We were pretty identical - even looked the part. I don't remember butterflies in stomach for anybody else before her or after her. She never married and she's teaching in a college in Europe somewhere.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Wow Cletus! That is some extremely well thought out biographical details!
> 
> I don't feel it's appropriate to comment on any of it.


All of a sudden you get all quiet on us? WTF?



> But I have to giggle at the Princess Polly prissy pants moniker. I have a daughter like that. Mind if I borrow it?


I stole part of it from South Park, and I never asked permission. Have at it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> All of a sudden you get all quiet on us? WTF?
> 
> 
> 
> I stole part of it from South Park, and I never asked permission. Have at it.


I didn't get the impression you posted all of that history to open the floor to discussion, but to put the guesses to bed.

Are you opening this to questions or guesses?


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> I didn't know about the ONS...wow.


Nor the bit about your wife losing her virginity to another guy. You've always made such a big deal about your wife being uptight because she didn't experiment before marriage.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I didn't get the impression you posted all of that history to open the floor to discussion, but to put the guesses to bed.
> 
> Are you opening this to questions or guesses?


Sure. I don't even pretend to know everything, only that I don't think there's a history of abuse. Far be it from me to shut down a good debate.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

I think faithful wife has it about right. Yes the 60's where the start of the sexual revolution but that does not mean everyone changed over night. 

There are a lot of people (both men and women) to this day with very conservative ideas about sex. 

Particularly early on my wife would consider any overtly sexual woman as being a dumb s!ut. I had to point out some research that showed that the higher the education the more likely a person would be less inhibited with sex. 

It is hard to believe but some people do grow up with very conservative rules about how a nice person behaves. 

My wife even had a no first genital contact rule -when we where having sex I would have to touch her first (another thing she has gotten past in the last 4 years)

I also think that people can have different degrees of phobias and even some autistic, ocd, and other issues -in other words it is not all or nothing, fully dysfunctional or fully OK. That cause them to behave differently.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm wondering if a lot of the posters on this thread are under 30 or something? :scratchhead:


I'm not sure what my mother has to do with this. She hasn't been a strong influence in my life for a long time. 

I'm nearly 50 and I consider myself sexually adventurous. I got more adventurous as I put more emphasis on sex, starting in my early 40s.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Cletus, based on what you say, you are not giving your wife enough credit. She's done a lot to change over the years and so she's got some quirks. That's who she is.

You have left out that little tidbit about having an affair in 2005 previously. 

I bet that was exciting.

And then you say after that you decided to be more vocal about having your needs met. So are you saying that you cheated because your wife wasn't giving you everything you wanted in bed? Because that sounds like blame-shifting, however passively you might be saying it.

*Sir, your needs are more than met by this woman.*

*Your desires are not. T**here is a difference.*

You are choosing to make this problem central to your marriage. You chose to cheat because you weren't really the nice guy you projected. You were angry underneath.

God, I hate "nice guys". They are so full of ****.

So you had an affair. You changed. And you are making this the central focus of your marriage. The central negative focus of your marriage. 

All I see now that you've told the story is a selfish man. She's given you what she can, she's changed over time however incrementally, and all you see is failure. 

She is the woman you married. You are not the man she married.

But now SHE has to pay for it. 

I'm so disappointed in you I can't really offer anything else. I feel like an idiot for trying to help you. For caring.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Clip snip,

Wow,
What a judgemental load of crap you've hurled here. 

Clearly his W sees him as a good to great H and because of that she didn't even attempt to use the affair as a way to justify hammering him via their sex life. 

Sounds to me like she realized that a lifetime of her 'gate keeping' sexual style created some bad karma. 

And while it isn't formulaic, there is a point at which rigidly controlling frequency, schedule and activities is a betrayal of that first vow. 





clipclop2 said:


> Cletus, based on what you say, you are not giving your wife enough credit. She's done a lot to change over the years and so she's got some quirks. That's who she is.
> 
> You have left out that little tidbit about having an affair in 2005 previously.
> 
> ...


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Bad karma? Give me a break.

You don't think she suffers because of his sexual issues and his cheating? Then she must be the only BW out there like this. She should write a book to tell all the other BSs how to get over being cheated on.

She loves him. She wants the marriage but none of us know why. That doesn't mean his behavior is not selfish. He admits he probably doesn't give her enough credit. But she has been consistent throughout the marriage. He has not. 

You if I recall, threatened your wife into more sex so I am not surprised you feel this way. 

She is NOT betraying her vows.

They have sex. She enjoys it. But she has always been a certain way yet still tried things for him. Sorry it hasn't been everything he has dreamed of. I doubt she dreamed he would be like this, either.

She held her ground yet tried to yield. We don't know why. To hear Cletus tell it there is no reason. That is doubtful. He has tried to accept her as much as he can but it seems to me that he is the one who needs the work. IC might help before going into MC. She isn't 100% responsible for his feelings about sex. He set up hopes as many immature men do when they are young and over the years he has prodded but only after "succumbing to the seduction" of another woman does he up the ante. He doesn't really sound as though he owns his cheating.

I have been on his side, trying to understand her but I cannot. She isn't here and they don't talk about some things so he can't give us anything more than she is as she is.

Given that he married that woman his behavior while understandable in terms of disappointment that she didn't become the sexual person he had hoped is still hurtful to her.

She fears he will never be satisfied.

I bet that is a fear that he will cheat again in part.

He had no desire to leave her when he cheated. He was just satisfying his lust. She is an otherwise great partner to him. He is now wondering about leaving. Over this issue. Better that than cheating again. But I think his fixation on this issue is his own problem and one that can be better dealt with than coming to TAM. TAM only reminds him of what he doesn't get.

I am hoping that his writing of their history presented him with some perspective. It seemed like it might have.

I was very bummed when I read it but am mellowing because I think he has an enviable marriage and he wants to do the right thing by her. I guess you can say I was shocked. I just didn't see that coming and felt that by leaving out a giant part of the story he was deceiving us. People do that all the time here. I'm sure he is ashamed but at the same time not sure he ever really dealt with what he did. I've read enough of CWI to get a sense of what she experienced.

Cletus, have you read much of what a BS goes through?

Don't screw up your marriage. It is far too good to risk. She sounds like a wonderful woman. But I will tell you that women grow sexualy when they trust and believe in their spouse. I was abused when I was a girl and through my ex husband found that I could get past the bulk of the flashbacks. 99% of the time it doesn't affect me. After my divorce I did a lot of thinking and decided to make sex a higher priority in my next relationship. It didn't hurt that the divorce corresponded with a tubal and my early 40s. What I got in my current relationship has also been a disappointment in part because of his big time issues in that area and MY focus. But I would be a lot happier if my relationship had the rest of what your has. I think it would be enough. Granted, when I start feeling satisfied he seems to do something I consider a betrayal and that puts me back a fair amount. I wish he wouldn't do that. I want to be happy with him. But even if he became everything I would like in bed it doesn't fix the other issues. A lot of people would pay good money for what you have with your wife.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

Cletus I have not read all your posts here but I am in a similar situation but have decided to go at it differently, I hope it works out for you and I will keep my plan to myself for now even though it may backfire on me too, good luck


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> *Sir, your needs are more than met by this woman.*
> 
> *Your desires are not. T**here is a difference.*


I suppose that is true but it is not always black and white what is a need and what is a desire. 

Do people need to be loved or do they just desire it? Even if it is just a desire than so what? We do not actually need any of the luxury that the modern world gives us but that does not mean that we should be just as happy to do without.

I do tend to agree that media (porn, TAM, Cosmo., etc.) set pretty high expectations of what sex can be like. 

I also think that Cletus understands that some of his desires are generated by society and actively tries to modify his own behavior.

But I do not think that he truly knew what he was getting into. They waited till they where married. Even we who do not, and see that our spouses are not all that compatible, often assume that it will grow over time. 

I guess I am a bit conflicted because I see some truth to both sides of the argument.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Bad karma? Give me a break.
> 
> You don't think she suffers because of his sexual issues and his cheating? Then she must be the only BW out there like this. She should write a book to tell all the other BSs how to get over being cheated on.
> 
> She loves him. She wants the marriage but none of us know why. That doesn't mean his behavior is not selfish. He admits he probably doesn't give her enough credit. But she has been consistent throughout the marriage. He has not.


IRL, I certainly have my share of personality flaws, no need to enumerate them here.

But one of them is not selfishness. You could ask anyone, including my wife, who would agree, even if I made a monstrously selfish decision. I tried for 20 years to be the partner she needed me to be, but I failed. Once. So be angry about that, fine. But I also won't have my life completely defined by my worst moment.

She wants me around because I am still inherently a good person, and I her for the same reasons. You sympathize with her in our sexual struggles, and that's fine. So do I, in case you haven't been paying attention. I feel bad for every couple that suffers with an intractable difference on such an intimate topic to their marriage and their happiness.

Because I know firsthand where it can lead. 



> She is NOT betraying her vows.


No, she is not.



> She held her ground yet tried to yield. We don't know why. To hear Cletus tell it there is no reason. That is doubtful.


When you look someone in the eye, and they tell you "I don't know why I am like this, it's just who I am", why would you doubt them?



> He has tried to accept her as much as he can but it seems to me that he is the one who needs the work. IC might help before going into MC. She isn't 100% responsible for his feelings about sex. He set up hopes as many immature men do when they are young and over the years he has prodded but only after "succumbing to the seduction" of another woman does he up the ante. He doesn't really sound as though he owns his cheating.


I have yet to find a single person, here or in real life, who thinks that I set unrealistic expectations for my sex life. I would have been happy with what passes for average. Owning my behavior does not require me to behave as though it happened in a vacuum. 



> Given that he married that woman his behavior while understandable in terms of disappointment that she didn't become the sexual person he had hoped is still hurtful to her.


Of course it is. I understand that. 



> She fears he will never be satisfied.
> 
> I bet that is a fear that he will cheat again in part.


Absolutely. Once that trust is broken, it is never fully restored. I feel the weight of that often. I wish I had been a better person.



> He had no desire to leave her when he cheated. He was just satisfying his lust.


That's correct. Lust I have always wanted, both before and after, to satisfy with my wife. 



> But I think his fixation on this issue is his own problem and one that can be better dealt with than coming to TAM. TAM only reminds him of what he doesn't get.


It also reminds me of what I have. There are stories much worse than mine here. But perhaps it is time to move on.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

are you me?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

What you have can be slowly transitioned to what best case you can get, incrementally. The keyword there is slowly. 

Your expectations are average but the other side's, how to put it, process capability is below average so something has to give. 

I would be more concerned about the whole process of improvement messing up what you currently have, so would play it very conservative, baby steps etc.

If you hit a wall then you have other things to worry about.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

rush said:


> are you me?


No. With the exception of 2112, which is a masterpiece, I think Geddy is pretentious and has a questionable voice. But I do love Mr. Pert.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

agreed


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Cletus...You're doing great. I hope counseling helps. I think it will, but it will be tough. Thanks for being so open about this stuff. Good luck. Don't leave without saying goodbye (and I will make the same promise).


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

I'm torn here. On one hand I understand needing enthusiasm and a few position changes, but I cannot ignore the idea that maybe your wife wants face to face because it's intimate to her. Maybe she doesn't want to feel like a sl** or a fu** toy. If you truly would rather not be intimate with her or not give her what she needs (face to face -- intimacy time), unless she agrees to demoralize herself for your pleasure, then there really isn't a solution.

I'd rather have face to face missionary sex my whole life, then no sex (which makes us different -- that's okay). I don't care how bad I wanted to do all the kinky things I see in porn, I'd try to give her what she needed, if she was trying to give me what I needed.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Coldie,
That is a very selective read on your part. 

This is way more than just positional control. This is control over: 
- when, 
- where, 
- how and 
- how often. 

That's a very heavy straight jacket to carry around for a whole marriage. 




Coldie said:


> I'm torn here. On one hand I understand needing enthusiasm and a few position changes, but I cannot ignore the idea that maybe your wife wants face to face because it's intimate to her. Maybe she doesn't want to feel like a sl** or a fu** toy. If you truly would rather not be intimate with her or not give her what she needs (face to face -- intimacy time), unless she agrees to demoralize herself for your pleasure, then there really isn't a solution.
> 
> I'd rather have face to face missionary sex my whole life, then no sex (which makes us different -- that's okay). I don't care how bad I wanted to do all the kinky things I see in porn, I'd try to give her what she needed, if she was trying to give me what I needed.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

And he can't touch her, nor does she touch him.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cletus,
In a perfect world you will find a therapist who is:
- Female
- Married with kids
- Catholic (or whatever denomination you and your w are)
- Sex positive

If it was me, I would find 3-5 therapists who fit most/all this criteria. And then I would pay for a single session with each of them during which I interviewed and assessed them. 

Your W needs a 'professional she respects' to tell her that this is more than 'ok', that this is good, positive bonding behavior. 

On a separate note:
I find it very disappointing that members of TAM often try to shame Men when our responses under duress don't fit their short list of allowable male behaviors. 

And you are 100 percent right not to allow anyone to attempt to diminish 30 years of goodness by focusing on one night of outlier behavior.

Lots of women on TAM say: oh, you're the guy who threatened his W when she didn't want to have sex. 

Funny thing how people choose to perceive reality. If M2 was here she'd say - oh yeah - M1 - he's the guy has loved me thru thick and thin. The guy who had such a HD until the day he learned it actually hurt me to have sex with him. And that guy - from the day he heard that til now - he hasn't pressured me once. Not for sex which he seems ok isn't workable for me, and not for the super duper alternatives I offer him almost nightly. 

Cletus,
Don't let anybody shame you. I've read your stuff and I'm a good judge of character. Twenty years younger and I'd be offering you a dowry to marry my oldest. And if through bad luck you end up single, my sister (46 years old) is a few months from being single.....



QUOTE=skype;7446170]And he can't touch her, nor does she touch him.[/QUOTE]


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well, DesignDaughter's therapist fits the bill perfectly yet my gut feeling is she would side with C2. I would agree with the screening process but would be concerned if C approaches the process seeking validation of HIS view, whatever that may be and regardless of the actual issue.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

How are things going Cletus?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Yeah. Are you getting on ok?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

*Re: Re: Kobayashi Maru*



MEM11363 said:


> On a separate note:
> I find it very disappointing that members of TAM often try to shame Men when our responses under duress don't fit their short list of allowable male behaviors.
> 
> And you are 100 percent right not to allow anyone to attempt to diminish 30 years of goodness by focusing on one night of outlier behavior.
> ...


Lucky her! You are so benevolent!

I find it odd that you didn't know sex hurts her. She must have been either a great actress or a great liar. Or perhaps you do not possess the great judgement you believe you have.

Further, the OP feels shame for cheating. Cheating is shameful. His wife is coping with the worry that he will cheat again. That's just reality. You can't unring the bell of infidelity.

I do agree that sex in marriage is important and should be expected unless there is a real health issue. You appear happy with what you are getting though it isn't everything you would like. Maybe it is because you feel you understand and have some level of control. OP says he believes what she tells him though I think they could talk more. So what is your secret to being satisfied? 

Finally, I will always see you threatening your wife as a betrayal. That's just the way it is. And what your wife says out loud might not be what she really thinks. You have made fear a part of your marriage... She is willing to put up with it but that doesn't mean this is a happily ever after story. 

I've said my piece.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Bump


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

where is cletus?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Must have taken all the kids to the carwash for a bath.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

clipclop2 said:


> Must have taken all the kids to the carwash for a bath.


Rumor says he's around now...


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## kennethk (Feb 18, 2014)

Warning - Star Trek trivia based on a post about 5 pages ago...

During the last season of Generations, there was an episode about time displacement. One of the "alternate" realities was that Worf and Troy were married. Worf was aware of the rip in time and over time, he really enjoyed his life with Troy. When time corrected itself, he struggled with the memories of that life and he ended up asking her out.

I guess the morel of the story was that we can decide to make our own future.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> Rumor says he's around now...


He's not "taking questions on air" but his recent posts have provided an unhappy update.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm not a Christian, but I always liked the saying "Sometimes when god answers your prayer, that answer is no".

Some things for various reasons can't be fixed in life, and the best solution is to accept and/or move on. You can't always reprogram the simulator.


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