# MMSL, taken with plenty of salt.



## nader (May 4, 2011)

I've been kind of hooked on Athol Kay lately thanks to this forum... but I have a few issues.

I think his general principle is spot on -self improvement, finding the right Alpha/Beta mix that your wife responds to.

On the other hand, it's too much obsession with sex ranking and too much 'Game.' the emotional components of love, trust, things that build a solid relationship... seem to all but lost here. It's like he missed out on the opportunity in his single years to be some master pickup artist so now he's making up for it in his marriage.

He seems overly paranoid about cheating.. how easy it is to cheat, how if you don't do a, b and c your wife is going to just run off to someone with a higher rank than you. If your friend crashes at your place he is obviously trying to steal your wife. If you do the MAP women are going to flock to you and you wont' be able to control yourself.

Some of these scenarios he describes just seem utterly preposterous to me when I try to plug in friends/acquaintances from my own life. We are not a bunch of water buffalos in the wild competing for mates to pass on our genetic material. I understand the 'natural selection hardwiring' aspect of it, but there's something missing.

I read one of blog posts where he basically said his wife is his personal f-toy, that's all he needs her for, she's replaceable and if she stopped he would drop her like an old hat. I got really disillusioned at this point. Some of this stuff is just incredibly offensive.

I've like to hear from others... how they've managed to integrate some of these principles into their marriage, and perhaps some other resources to balance out the excessive misogyny and cynicism I'm picking up here.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

the general princibles of manning up are just having self respect and setting boundries and enforcing them as needed.

coupled with showing love and desire and the commitment to having a good marriage.

I personally think if you got to act like a jagoff to get that then your with the wrong woman.


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

I love his blog and I think that he is spot on for most of his ideas.
My wife and I have worked hard on our marriage in the past few years and although I didn't find out about AK until recently, nearly everything that he posts is stuff that I learned the hard way, by trial and error.
I think that you are being a little harsh with the f-toy and dropping Jennifer reference, but it is a fact. If my wife were to quit showing me affection and making love to me, I would go elsewhere. I already did once.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

> I think that you are being a little harsh with the f-toy and dropping Jennifer reference, but it is a fact. If my wife were to quit showing me affection and making love to me, I would go elsewhere. I already did once.


I agree with most people that it's time to leave when one spouse just completely shuts down the sex. And I guess his whole point is just to empower men to be in that position, when they otherwise wouldn't be. 

I'm just trying to reconcile this idea with the other idea that my wife should feel secure in our relationship. How does a wife feel respected and cherished when she knows she is so replaceable? Should I really want my wife to step it up because she's afraid she would lose me otherwise?


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

nader said:


> I agree with most people that it's time to leave when one spouse just completely shuts down the sex. And I guess his whole point is just to empower men to be in that position, when they otherwise wouldn't be.
> 
> I'm just trying to reconcile this idea with the other idea that my wife should feel secure in our relationship. How does a wife feel respected and cherished when she knows she is so replaceable? Should I really want my wife to step it up because she's afraid she would lose me otherwise?


As you have likely seen on this forum in other threads, it works both ways. You are easily replaceable too.

Athol is essentially teaching men how to play the game their wives have already been playing for years.

It all evens out.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

nader said:


> I'm just trying to reconcile this idea with the other idea that my wife should feel secure in our relationship. How does a wife feel respected and cherished when she knows she is so replaceable? Should I really want my wife to step it up because she's afraid she would lose me otherwise?


Athol is just about portraying marriage in realistic terms.

To paraphrase Einstein, husbands and wives should feel as comfortable and secure as possible in their marriages, but not more. When one spouse feels more secure than he or she should, that's when the other spouse gets neglected.

I am quite sure that, were I to quit my job in order to pursue my lifelong dream of being the X-Box champion of the world, my wife would eventually divorce me. Because I would no longer be contributing to the marriage.

Similarly, if my wife decides that she no longer needs to meet my sexual needs, because I will never, ever, ever leave her, well, never might just hurry up and get here.

So, I agree with Athol that marriage should not be viewed as two soul-mates who are destined to be happy forever. It should be viewed for what it is. An arrangement for two people to be roommates, lovers, and often parents, for as long as they both believe that the pros outweigh the cons.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

My husband is FAR from replaceable.

He is the sweetest, kindest and most loving man I have ever been with. I attracted so many terrible men in the past who were breathtakingly callous. He makes me feel like a well loved orphan who was taken out of terrible foster care. 

I am the most caring woman he has ever been with. My husband loves the way I do not use sex as a weapon and the way I enjoy nurturing him. Every other woman my husband was with manipulated him with sex and refused to do anything for him, yet they expected trips and gifts.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

If you don't mind, I'm going to interject a female opinion here-
Nader- I agree with you. 

I do see all the benefits to making yourself a better person, but the man's reasoning seems a bit flawed in that, it's almost like a 'one foot out the door' solution. How can you focus on making a better connection through game playing and passive-aggressive manipulation? I know it's worked for some, but under what pretenses? She only comes closer because she wants reassurance that you're not leaving, not because she's suddenly so in love with you. It's too manipulative IMO & misses the mark. 

BTW-I am in no way an advocate of selfish wives, some things I read here kill me. And I realize that it's not always the woman- it certainly can go both ways. 
However, if you're putting off the impression that she's nothing special anyways, even if you're just playing the game, she'll get the impression that you're not in the relationship because you want 'her.' That sucks the passion out so much further.

We ALL want/need to know WE are special & that's why you're with us. Appreciate WHO we are, not just what we do... & say it!
However with this method, she'll learn from you one way or another, that it could potentially be anyone in her shoes- 
This could so damn easily build more resentment & more distance than what was already there..
It just seems like wheels will spin but noone will get very far. 

I guess when men or women are really difficult to live with & get through to, we look for anything that could potentially help- from that perspective, I understand why people give it a go..
But to be honest, it just makes a woman feel like a dumb-a** knowing men look at us as if we could be played out so easily and/or then we can be replaced as if we are just some 'personal f-toy.' 
No good woman or man wants to feel that way.
I just don't believe men are nearly as simplistic either.

I think it's helpful to carefully consider the source-a random man, with a few morsels of good info, but who is operating from a heart tainted with a good deal of fear & animosity.
I agree with taking his advice with a more than a few hearty grains of salt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

And there is no way in hell that my husband is easily replaceable. No way in hell.
I bet most women, with a good man, would say the same thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

FirstYearDown said:


> My husband is FAR from replaceable.
> 
> He is the sweetest, kindest and most loving man I have ever been with. I attracted so many terrible men in the past who were breathtakingly callous. He makes me feel like a well loved orphan who was taken out of terrible foster care.
> 
> I am the most caring woman he has ever been with. My husband loves the way I do not use sex as a weapon and the way I enjoy nurturing him. Every other woman my husband was with manipulated him with sex and refused to do anything for him, yet they expected trips and gifts.


Your husband is not easily replaced because he is a kind, caring man.
If he were to change into an abusive monster, would he be easily replaced or at least removed?

The same thing goes with you. You are a kind, loving woman. Do you think that he would stick around if you became a shrew that constantly nagged him and witheld sex?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

karma*girl said:


> If you don't mind, I'm going to interject a female opinion here-
> Nader- I agree with you.
> 
> I do see all the benefits to making yourself a better person, but the man's reasoning seems a bit flawed in that, it's almost like a 'one foot out the door' solution. How can you focus on making a better connection through game playing and passive-aggressive manipulation? I know it's worked for some, but under what pretenses? She only comes closer because she wants reassurance that you're not leaving, not because she's suddenly so in love with you. It's too manipulative IMO & misses the mark.
> ...


While I can agree with much of this, it is important to recognize that the target audience is men who have wives that have deprioritized their husbands. Many of these husbands feel relegated to dad and paycheck, as opposed to a husband and lover. A man wants to feel special as well, and a good man deserves it. 

MMSL is partly about getting men to realize that they do deserve it (including sex) and wanting it is not bad. It is also about recognizing that marraige is a two-way street, and just as their wives are wonderful women who could survive and find another special man, so could the husband. If either spouse is not working to make the other feel special, they run the risk of losing them.

As noted above, it is about waking men up to the game that women have been playing for years.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nader,
Athol is attempting to create a more level playing field. And it is true that in the process he can be a bit extreme. If a "5" is balanced, perhaps he is a 7 or some days an 8. 

With that said, if you read these boards carefully what you find often mirrors the classic fairy tales which are modelled on two different pairings:

Male alpha/female
In this pairing , the woman marries the beast and tames him, with the result being a delightful alpha/beta mix. 

Female alpha/male
In this pairing , the female (sometimes shown as stepmother simply to demonstrate the extent of her dominance) overpowers the male to the point where she is able to marginalize or even harm her step children. 

Scenario one is win/win. Scenario two is win/lose. Both reflect a very old truth: Women as a group develop a highly effective set of interpersonal skills for dealing with men inside a sexual relationship. 





nader said:


> I've been kind of hooked on Athol Kay lately thanks to this forum... but I have a few issues.
> 
> I think his general principle is spot on -self improvement, finding the right Alpha/Beta mix that your wife responds to.
> 
> ...


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## Mr_brown (Oct 17, 2011)

Athol is just playing the odds... How many alpha personalities visit Athol's blog? Or have read the books? My guess is the percentage is very low. 
If you are completely beta and your wife decides to stray on you it will be with an alpha, it's what she is missing... And if a beta isn't getting what he wants/needs it's because he is letting her walk all over him. This all makes sense down to the natural selection of mates. 
All I have to say is after employing the MAP I have benefited and my wife is happier. The proof is in the pudding!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Everything I read I read with a grain of salt. I found Athol's perspectives to be refreshing and helpful to my own marriage. The touchy feely aspects are well covered by other writers. Most folks are not willing to risk not being PC. So Athol is more for those that want to know what is being left unsaid for so many.

On balance I think this is a very postive contribution towards happy marriages. In no way do I try to be Athol Kay. But his methods are very helpful for many.
I think it goes a long way to make good marriages better. I think there are too few credible resources that can help a man to improve his sex life with his wife. Too many men just try to do more chores around the house or in essence focus on Beta skills only and they end up with a walk away wife or one that gets involved in an affair. There is good info in the blog about being a man and not letting a predator into the marriage. Convential wisdom just says he is bad husband if she forms a bond with another man. :headslap:

The thing is that his contribution is not one sided. Meaning a wife should absolutely want her husband to read MMSL. He becomes a better husband. This along with one of the other books like His Needs Her Needs of the Five Love Languages are a nice combination.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

nader said:


> He seems overly paranoid about cheating.. how easy it is to cheat, how if you don't do a, b and c your wife is going to just run off to someone with a higher rank than you. If your friend crashes at your place he is obviously trying to steal your wife. If you do the MAP women are going to flock to you and you wont' be able to control yourself.


Honestly it`s the biggest danger to a marriage I can think of.

Estimates as high as 70% of married people cheating kinda take the edge off the term "paranoid".



> I read one of blog posts where he basically said his wife is his personal f-toy, that's all he needs her for, she's replaceable and if she stopped he would drop her like an old hat. I got really disillusioned at this point. Some of this stuff is just incredibly offensive.


I tend to think it`s because one chooses to be offended.
Athol has a realists outlook on the world, it offends some but comforts me since I hold a similar world view.
I think it`s semantics.

My wife is my personal **** Toy, I`ve told her this she`s stated the same about me.
I don`t have a problem with it.
In fact I revel in it.
I read the post you`re referring to, I don`t recall Athol stating "Thats all he needs her for".

However my wife, your wife, everyones wife is indeed "replaceable" in the purest sense of the word.
That`s what divorce is for and if I wasn`t being sexually satisfied and no compromise/solution could be found, I`d drop her like a well loved old hat.




> I've like to hear from others... how they've managed to integrate some of these principles into their marriage, and perhaps some other resources to balance out the excessive misogyny and cynicism I'm picking up here.


I`ve always worked Athols principles and I`ve always done well with women.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

> I think it`s semantics.


It must be.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

I find it disheartening that the underlying principle seems to be that once married, things like fidelity, integrity, love and mutuality are all replaced entirely by base-level biochemistry and that unless you're fighting a constant war of attrition against your spouse's base nature you're going to hell in a pisspot.

The idea of pushing the replaceability angle so hard is a bit sad. It seems to owe more to the merchant capitalist school of thought than any concept of marriage. I know it works in business, most of us have met the boss who says "I can sack the lot of you and replace you in an afternoon". Which is fine until you actually want someone who is committed beyond the paycheck level, and is involved and engaged. Otherwise when the sh1t hits the fan, all those people whose loyalty comes from fear and money say "Sorry, I went off the clock two minutes ago..."

But like I said elsewhere, he makes his money from this now - he has to sell it as being pretty much a panacea.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> I find it disheartening that the underlying principle seems to be that once married, things like fidelity, integrity, love and mutuality are all replaced entirely by base-level biochemistry and that unless you're fighting a constant war of attrition against your spouse's base nature you're going to hell in a pisspot.


I am curious where you got that from his book. What I took away is that there are base-level biochemistry issues at play that you need to be aware of, even in a LTR. If you know about them, you can use them to keep your marriage strong, or it at least improve the chances.



> The idea of pushing the replaceability angle so hard is a bit sad. It seems to owe more to the merchant capitalist school of thought than any concept of marriage. I know it works in business, most of us have met the boss who says "I can sack the lot of you and replace you in an afternoon". Which is fine until you actually want someone who is committed beyond the paycheck level, and is involved and engaged. Otherwise when the sh1t hits the fan, all those people whose loyalty comes from fear and money say "Sorry, I went off the clock two minutes ago..."


I think this misses the point. It is not to get your wife to stay with you out of fear. Rather, it is about getting the husband to recognize that there are other options, and if you wife is not doing her part, you can find another woman out there. No different than what women are told about throwing back a guy to find a better one.



> But like I said elsewhere, he makes his money from this now - he has to sell it as being pretty much a panacea.


Where does he say it works all the time? Certainly not in his book.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

DanF said:


> I love his blog and I think that he is spot on for most of his ideas.
> My wife and I have worked hard on our marriage in the past few years and although I didn't find out about AK until recently, nearly everything that he posts is stuff that I learned the hard way, by trial and error.
> I think that you are being a little harsh with the f-toy and dropping Jennifer reference, but it is a fact. If my wife were to quit showing me affection and making love to me, I would go elsewhere. I already did once.


This is not harsh it is contemptable. I cant believe a person with any self respect would post something like this. If you hate women so much why dont you divorce, grab your balls and get out there and see if you can attract a women who cares anything about you? Why stay married if you we such a big deal? I'll bet you didn't show your wife this post. She wouod know that you are not worth R and get rid of you for the deceptive person you are. That is your idea of transparency. Try to fix yourself, you have the same problems that led to your cheating. 

You are going to find yourself divorced with half your assets gone and trolling for a woman to have sex with you. Why are you here on a marriage positive site that advocates the best in all of us? . Is your wife kicking your butt that badly? You are a cheater - dishonest, deceptive and you post this as if you have any thing of worth to say? I feel so sorry for your wife and kids to have such a "man" as you. 

I'll tell you what this kind of careless garbage does - it answers the question that a sizable number of women have. "Can I believe my husbands claims that sex is his way of connecting emotionally". According to this post, no. Women are a collection of holes for a man use, anyone with the right body parts will do. I think women, including your wife , have every right to refuse to be used for sex. 

I am sorry your wife made you into a hateful contemptuous man. You had better work on it though, the next relationship you tho k you are entitled to will turn out exactly the same. . BTW- Don't be so sure that your wife will not walk away from you or cheat herself. Impossible. Why don't you read some of the post from men whose wives walk away. With your attitude, she may very well be planning a getaway when she has gotten what she needs out of you. 

This Athol stuff is spreading hate. Probably out of some problems in his relationship with women. Do you really think a cold caculating shipher like that can give relationship advice? Where are all the success stories? There arn't any, he is raking in money from the men who buy junk. It does not work. 

Instead of reading this stuff get something on how to love, compassion and empathy. How to have a sucessful relationship. Get some IC. Look at yourself and work on your personal problems. Instead of parroting hate, strive to be honest and dependable like any decent human being. 

The children you brought into the world depend on you they think you are a man worthy of respect. Try to live up to high standards. You are not a dog in heat, don't act like one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> While I can agree with much of this, it is important to recognize that the target audience is men who have wives that have deprioritized their husbands.


Yes. The book is not written for every marriage. It's written for (hopefully) only a small subset of marriages.


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> This is not harsh it is contemptable. I cant believe a person with any self respect would post something like this. If you hate women so much why dont you divorce, grab your balls and get out there and see if you can attract a women who cares anything about you? Why stay married if you we such a big deal? I'll bet you didn't show your wife this post. She wouod know that you are not worth R and get rid of you for the deceptive person you are. That is your idea of transparency. Try to fix yourself, you have the same problems that led to your cheating.
> 
> You are going to find yourself divorced with half your assets gone and trolling for a woman to have sex with you. Why are you here on a marriage positive site that advocates the best in all of us? . Is your wife kicking your butt that badly? You are a cheater - dishonest, deceptive and you post this as if you have any thing of worth to say? I feel so sorry for your wife and kids to have such a "man" as you.
> 
> ...


Wow.
I haven't stirred up this kind of emotion in a while here.
Catherine, let's turn the tables a little.
If your husband treated you like crap, refused to make love to you, didn't pull his weight in the family or relationship, would you continue to be a loving supportive wife or would you divorce him and find a man that would treat you as you deserve?

My wife an I have a wonderful, loving and very successful relationship. We take care of each other and each contribute equally to our marriage. We didn't a few years ago and both of us went elsewhere looking for what we were missing at home.
So I think that I do know what I'm talking about, I was nearly divorced a few years ago.


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

This post is filled with emotion and makes no effort to try to understand the other side of things. That's honestly what makes Athol's blog so popular. Women, as the "gatekeepers" of sex 90%, haven't had to, or haven't been willing to understand anything outside of themselves.



Catherine602 said:


> This is not harsh it is contemptable. I cant believe a person with any self respect would post something like this. *If you hate women so much* why dont you divorce, *grab your balls and get out there and see if you can attract a women who cares anything about you?*


Purely emotional. Who said anything about hating women? I've read the blog, and it oozes out of the guy how much he loves his wife. Plus she adds comments on most posts adding her perspective and confirming that he's only doing what she enjoys.



Catherine602 said:


> Why stay married if you we such a big deal? I'll bet you didn't show your wife this post. She wouod know that you are not worth R and get rid of you for the deceptive person you are. That is your idea of transparency. Try to fix yourself, you have the same problems that led to your cheating.


This kind of information is intended for guys who love their wives and want to make it work. After attempting to better themselves, then and only then will they assess the situation and get a divorce if the marriage is that broken. I don't know Dan's backstory so I can't speak to the cheating.



Catherine602 said:


> You are going to find yourself divorced with half your assets gone and trolling for a woman to have sex with you. Why are you here on a marriage positive site that advocates the best in all of us? . Is your wife kicking your butt that badly? You are a cheater - dishonest, deceptive and you post this as if you have any thing of worth to say? I feel so sorry for your wife and kids to have such a "man" as you.


Emotional rant



Catherine602 said:


> I'll tell you what this kind of careless garbage does - it answers the question that a sizable number of women have. "Can I believe my husbands claims that sex is his way of connecting emotionally". According to this post, no. Women are a collection of holes for a man use, anyone with the right body parts will do. I think women, including your wife , have every right to refuse to be used for sex.


No, the idea is to create an _environment_ in which your wife is open to sex. Not just pull some magic tricks and booby traps and con her into sex. If the intent is pure and the actions are righteous, she's going to want sex from you. She's not being used.



Catherine602 said:


> I am sorry your wife made you into a hateful contemptuous man. You had better work on it though, the next relationship you tho k you are entitled to will turn out exactly the same. . BTW- Don't be so sure that your wife will not walk away from you or cheat herself. Impossible. Why don't you read some of the post from men whose wives walk away. With your attitude, she may very well be planning a getaway when she has gotten what she needs out of you.


More emotional ranting.



Catherine602 said:


> This Athol stuff is spreading hate. Probably out of some problems in his relationship with women. Do you really think a cold caculating shipher like that can give relationship advice? Where are all the success stories? There arn't any, he is raking in money from the men who buy junk. It does not work.


OK, in the interest of not typing "emotional ranting" again, I'm sincerely asking you to explain to me what you mean by all of this. Not how it makes you _feel_, but how Athol is spreading hate, how it's cold and calculated, how it's junk, how it doesn't work, etc. You can choose not to of course, but when I disagree with someone I like to engage them with reason and explaining my thought process, not just what feeling I get from it.



Catherine602 said:


> Instead of reading this stuff get something on how to love, compassion and empathy. How to have a sucessful relationship. Get some IC. Look at yourself and work on your personal problems. Instead of parroting hate, strive to be honest and dependable like any decent human being.


The blog, from my understanding, is one of the only of its kind that touches on both "Alpha" and "Beta" traits. Meaning, while on one post he tells you your wife may enjoy it if you cum on her t*ts, on another, he'll tell you to run her a bath, take her on a nice romantic dinner, etc. I truly think you're reacting negative to all of this because of how it makes you feel (the man is dominant, the woman is submissive, etc.) rather than genuinely knowing what you're choosing to disagree with. 



Catherine602 said:


> The children you brought into the world depend on you they think you are a man worthy of respect.


Personal attacks without merit.



Catherine602 said:


> Try to live up to high standards. You are not a dog in heat, don't act like one.


No, he's a man. A man who demands sex from his wife who agreed to foresake all others for him. That's not a dog, that's a man. And you may not understand it, but it's not right to "man shame" and it shows a lack of interest in attempting to even understand anything outside of yourself.

Like I said, I don't know what backstory you and Dan may have with each other, but you seem to have spewed venom based on what you feel, rather than pointing out what you actually disagree with. I didn't take the time to respond to all of this to defend Dan, the strong feelings of it all just honestly shocked me.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> This is not harsh it is contemptable. I cant believe a person with any self respect would post something like this. ... I feel so sorry for your wife and kids to have such a "man" as you.


IMO, this post is a great example of what is wrong with so many women today. While I won't excuse Dan's cheating, I can recognize that it is possible for his wife to have helped create a poor marriage that was vulnerable to infidelity.

But that's not an acceptable point of view for many women. There is only the Disney view of marriage, where Prince Charming whisks away the princess to a lifetime of eternal happiness and having her every fantasy fulfilled. And, of course, the princess has no responsibilities beyond making out her honey-do list.



Catherine602 said:


> I'll tell you what this kind of careless garbage does - it answers the question that a sizable number of women have. "Can I believe my husbands claims that sex is his way of connecting emotionally". According to this post, no. Women are a collection of holes for a man use, anyone with the right body parts will do. I think women, including your wife , have every right to refuse to be used for sex.


More crap here. If a man likes sex and expects sex to be a part of marriage, well then he's a heartless pervert. Marriage isn't about a sexual relationship. It's about a wife and her butler.



Catherine602 said:


> This Athol stuff is spreading hate. Probably out of some problems in his relationship with women. Do you really think a cold caculating shipher like that can give relationship advice? Where are all the success stories? There arn't any, he is raking in money from the men who buy junk. It does not work.


It absolutely works. I can attest to that. I am a reformed beta myself. My wife used to treat me like her butler. My wife used to deny me sex. My marriage was in crisis until I found Athol's blog. Now, my wife treats me like a man. And I treat her like a woman. Not a princess. Not an employer.

She's happy and I'm happy. But it's amazing that so many women have invested completely in the Disney/Lifetime fantasy of men as either Prince Charmings or Ike Turners, with no other possibilities, that they will begrudge others their happiness in order to keep spreading the lie.


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

Blue Moon said:


> I don't know Dan's backstory so I can't speak to the cheating.


It's in my sig if you are curious.


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

PHTlump and Blue moon, thanks for the backup.


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

DanF said:


> It's in my sig if you are curious.


Thanks, I'll check it out.


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

DanF said:


> PHTlump and Blue moon, thanks for the backup.



No problem man. It was way too over the top to not respond.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

> I am curious where you got that from his book. What I took away is that there are base-level biochemistry issues at play that you need to be aware of, even in a LTR. If you know about them, you can use them to keep your marriage strong, or it at least improve the chances.


No, I see exactly what Sawney is saying. There's nothing wrong with looking at it from that perspective, but with Athol there doesn't seem to be much more than that. Maybe it has to do with him being atheist? I don't know. (no offense to any nonbelievers who might be reading.)

I like lots of what he has to say. The concept of 'fitness tests' has probably been the most useful thing in my own marriage. And I like the idea of the man being the leader ala 'Captain/First Commander' model. And I agree it would also be a great idea for me to work out, make more money and dress better.

I don't think it's all garbage, far from it. I just don't think it's the end-all of marriage advice for men. 

This topic seems to have hit a nerve with Catherine.. I guess there's some history there. And what does it mean to be 'used for sex?' My wife reluctantly did me a favor last night.. the night before she had said 'tomorrow' .. I took her up on it.. she was reluctant but then decided it would be the easiest way to shut me up and get some sleep. Is it 'using' unless she's totally into it? 

And don't women use men for other things as well? if I said I have a right to refuse to be 'used' by my wife by sharing my paycheck, would that make any sense? 

PHTlump - you're presenting a really harsh dichotomy here. Either it's all cold and calculating Athol or it's feminist Cinderella with a honey-do list. Where is the happy medium?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

nader said:


> PHTlump - you're presenting a really harsh dichotomy here. Either it's all cold and calculating Athol or it's feminist Cinderella with a honey-do list. Where is the happy medium?


I think Athol is the happy medium. Men should be both the beta, giving our wives the oxytocin pair-bond they crave, and the alpha, giving our wives the dopamine rushes of attraction and excitement that they also crave.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

It is about balance. Many men need the Athol point of view to help balance them out so that they can be a better husband. It has helped me a lot.

Athol is actually a middle ground position on all of this stuff. I think there are many women who are much happier in their marriage than before due to his book. Those who treated their hubby badly probably not so much.

Why is it bad for men to have a resource like this? Only women can read stuff about their relationships? Are we sure we are not confusing Athol with Roissy?

I actually think there has been a huge backlash surrounding men in general from the schools on up for many many years. So the result seems to be a whole generation or two of Nice Guys and Bad Boys. Less balance. It is particualrly dissapointing when the Nice Guys grow up and find out that the Bad Boys are getting most of the attention from the girls. Both Nice Guys and Bad Boys are screwed up in their own way and not able to find a balance and be able to be happy. 

I personaly think we have done most young men and their future mates a great disservice by lying to them. Because it is a lie. We have over compensated. There are plenty of books about meeting needs and showing affection and helping with the dishes. But we have found that that is only part of the equation. There are wives starving for their man to be more like the man they fell in love with. It takes balance.

There is the flip side of guys who are told to bang away. That women are not to be respected. They are jerks. But they do get plenty of play. Sometimes that play is with the Nice Guys GF / wife. 

So I think it is important that men have resources to rely on. Too bad I did not get some guidance from my father on any of this. Most men do not BTW.

Too many men either get no repsect or give no respect. How about a man who can have both? There are a lot of good family men who need some direction. Men who were lied to.

Society has brought up a lot of men with a madonna-wh0re complex. Just messed up. No one comes out the winner with this. It destroys marriages.

What are these many women looking for that are out in the bars and clubs while their man is watching the kids? Yes attention. Indeed. Attention is part of the mating ritual. They are not dancing with and flirting with men who are filling thier fill of Beta. They are dancing and flirting with men who want sex from them. This may be only one group of women. But the concept is there. Why can't the husband be the fittest male? Why should he be Plan B?

The best thing I have done in recent years is change my view of my marriage. I want to web the following in this order:

1) My wifes exclusive lover

2) My wifes best male friend

3) My wifes husband

Priorities.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> This is not harsh it is contemptable. I cant believe a person with any self respect would post something like this. If you hate women so much why dont you divorce, grab your balls and get out there and see if you can attract a women who cares anything about you? Why stay married if you we such a big deal? I'll bet you didn't show your wife this post. She wouod know that you are not worth R and get rid of you for the deceptive person you are. That is your idea of transparency. Try to fix yourself, you have the same problems that led to your cheating.
> 
> You are going to find yourself divorced with half your assets gone and trolling for a woman to have sex with you. Why are you here on a marriage positive site that advocates the best in all of us? . Is your wife kicking your butt that badly? You are a cheater - dishonest, deceptive and you post this as if you have any thing of worth to say? I feel so sorry for your wife and kids to have such a "man" as you.
> 
> ...


many husbands have tried the love and compassion route and even to the point the their wives lose respect for them and then really walk all over them.

Its a balance and some women use the knowledge that they have alot of power holding the sex cards.

if you have a marriage that is in balance then I can see how you would feel this way. But this info is for men who have dropped the balls so to speak. and need to balance it out some.

and some women need a stronger hand than others.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dan,
This is refreshingly honest. There is a name for women whose husbands didn't meet THEIR emotional needs: walk away wives. 

For the 95% of men who are not sociopaths - sex is an emotional need. That means they want sex with their WIVES. Only when denied at home, do they seek attention elsewhere.




DanF said:


> I love his blog and I think that he is spot on for most of his ideas.
> My wife and I have worked hard on our marriage in the past few years and although I didn't find out about AK until recently, nearly everything that he posts is stuff that I learned the hard way, by trial and error.
> I think that you are being a little harsh with the f-toy and dropping Jennifer reference, but it is a fact. If my wife were to quit showing me affection and making love to me, I would go elsewhere. I already did once.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

DanF said:


> I love his blog and I think that he is spot on for most of his ideas.
> I think that you are being a little harsh with the f-toy and dropping Jennifer reference, but it is a fact. If my wife were to quit showing me affection and making love to me, I would go elsewhere. I already did once.


This. This is the problem. If your wife did not meet your sexual expectations, why not act morally and divorce? Sex seems to have nothing to do with love. If it did, you would have said you would divorce and seek the affection and love of another women. 

Divorce is painful but it gives you a chance to make an orderly exit. Prepare your children and give your wife some consideration as a human being. 

It does mean that you have to wait to have sex but you will not die. You went through dry periods when you were single right? Pretend you are single. 

Everyone, including your wife, has a right to be love and be loved the way they need to feel loved in return.

Plus your wife cheated. I hope you understand that you are just as much at risk of humiliation as she if you don't meet her needs. She has done it before, just like you. How would you feel if she said to you what you posted here? 

I bet you would not take it well. Have you shown her the post? Should't you do so as part of transparency. She has a right to know how you think so she can make plans too.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> This is not harsh it is contemptable. I cant believe a person with any self respect would post something like this. If you hate women so much why dont you divorce, grab your balls and get out there and see if you can attract a women who cares anything about you? Why stay married if you we such a big deal? I'll bet you didn't show your wife this post. She wouod know that you are not worth R and get rid of you for the deceptive person you are. That is your idea of transparency. Try to fix yourself, you have the same problems that led to your cheating.
> 
> You are going to find yourself divorced with half your assets gone and trolling for a woman to have sex with you. Why are you here on a marriage positive site that advocates the best in all of us? . Is your wife kicking your butt that badly? You are a cheater - dishonest, deceptive and you post this as if you have any thing of worth to say? I feel so sorry for your wife and kids to have such a "man" as you.
> 
> ...


Catherine,

I find great irony in the fact that your entire post is validation of Athol Kays portrait of what men are up against concerning the unrealistic point of view of relationships women are brainwashed into believing.

Athol himself couldn`t have scripted a better example.

As for success stories, I have been living by the principles MMSL espouses for my entire life in one form or another.
Women respond well to it pretty much universally within western culture.


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

*Dean* said:


> So for the men that follow the principles in this book.
> 
> Is it ok to cheat on your wife for with holding sex or for any reason in the marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, I think it's OK to let her know that if you can't have sex with her, you'll get it elsewhere. And if she's not willing to work on it, I'd leave the marriage.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

*Dean* said:


> So for the men that follow the principles in this book.
> 
> Is it ok to cheat on your wife for with holding sex or for any reason in the marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don`t believe anyone here has even alluded to such a thing and yes I include Dans post above.

This place has a way of twisting whatever was said into the worst possible version of any statement.

Nobody stated it was "ok" to cheat at all, in fact cheating hasn`t been brought up until Catherine projected her thoughts onto Dans post.

The projection is spreading now.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

*Dean* said:


> So for the men that follow the principles in this book.
> 
> Is it ok to cheat on your wife for with holding sex or for any reason in the marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I actually read his book. Twice. This is not what I read at all. I never felt the need to run the MAP. I gained much from the rest of it though.

I read that:

Marriage 2.0 requires endless courtship -- awesome and so true. In the chapter on Marriage 2.0 I feel he actually tries to give a point of view that most men miss out on.

He gives advice on dealing with affairs. How to recognize it and deal with it.

He is pro monogamy. What an evil man.

He specifically sites that cheating on your wife is a mistake. He is against this not just morally but he tries to apeal to men on a pragmatic level.

My wife and I have lived for 35 plus years following the Captain and the First Mate but Athol did a great of of defining this. How is this bad?

He does address Oneitis. MANY men need this chat. Men whose wives walk away from them or are bad to them are replaceble by much better women. Good point. This works both ways but many men refuse to believe it.

He is for Date Night. He is for sexy things that keep the passion going. What a horrble hateful man.

He talks about the L-spot ... which is helping with the laundry. The ten second kiss. OMG he is asking a couple to exchange a really powerful intimate thing. What a perv.

I could go on and on with all the marriage frendly stuff he tells men about.

I was unable to find in the book where he says to cheat. I see him state that at some point a man may need to divorce his wife. I totally agree.

Shame on Athol for suggesting that a good man might want something out of his marriage. That he may want some self respect. That he may want to actually be in love and show love for his wife.

He is truly the anti-christ.

I have no idea why many of these women are cutting on him. Perhaps some misguided feminist agenda like in Our Man Flint. Or was it In Like Flint. Anyway ladies I don't get it.

So as the stereotype was way back when. "Woman, get in the kitchen and make me a pie!!". Now I guess it should be the woman telling the man "Feed the kids and make sure they get to bed early. I don't know what time in the morning I will be back. I am going to out on my GNO to play with the boys." Marriage should not occur between these ridiculous extremes.

I have never ever read a single book that I agreed with every word. Ever. So to sift through and find a passage one does not agree with in any book is pretty absurd. But what pasage would that be?


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

tacoma said:


> I don`t believe anyone here has even alluded to such a thing and yes I include Dans post above.
> 
> This place has a way of twisting whatever was said into the worst possible version of any statement.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Somehow it's come down to hating women and cheating. If we're going to discuss this we should at least do it based on what the book actually says, not how it makes someone feel when they read it.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

*Dean* said:


> So for the men that follow the principles in this book.
> 
> Is it ok to cheat on your wife for with holding sex or for any reason in the marriage?


Cheating is not honorable or fair. No one should cheat. There is no justification.

At the same time though, I think there is a real difference between 'justification' and 'contributing circumstance.'

A man or women who feels they're valued less in the relationship than the family pets is much more vulnerable when someone else shows them some attention and makes them feel special. 

I can only speak for myself, but if I refused to have sex with my wife, I certainly don't think my hands would be entirely clean if she cheated because I would have directly contributed to the circumstance that made her vulnerable. 

I took a few minutes and read Dan's story. I don't see his statement as justification for his actions.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Catherine, you inspired me to finally get around to posting the link to my story in my signature. 

Sorry dear, it might seem romantic to think so, but men do not get loved by women because we're nice to them and we do their bidding. I tried that and my woman nearly slipped away from me completely.

I read 4 out of the 70 some chapters in MMSL and that gave me enough to get the gist. I read it Friday night after my wife fell asleep. Saturday morning she was to have moved into her apartment after our daughter went to ballet. I was going to load up MY truck with HER furniture and carry it into her apartment for her. I was "I would die for you" nice to her, and nothing would stop her from getting away from her.

But I sat on the couch next to her, reading. She went up to bed, I kept reading. I read until I was too tired, and I went to bed content that I understood what was happenning, and that I knew what to say in the morning.

Then she woke up and I woke with her. I didn't ask her once what she wants. I took a different attitude. I told her that I know she needs me to take charge, and I do not approve of her moving awayfrom me and if she truly wants to see me change, then she will not have any way to see that if she moves away from me and I will move with her.

I swear to God, she was just waiting for me to tell her she is not moving away from me. She broke down in tears and said she doesn't want to move out, and she's embarassed that she had gotten the apartment,furniture, lease and so forth.

Since then, I text her from work and say I'm coming home for lunch on her work from home day, and I want a sandwich - she makes it. I texted her that I want to meet her for lunch and take her to Panera, she leaves her lunch in the fridge at work to go with me. She does things now - before, she would ask me and I would comply - now, she does these things without being asked. She touches me without being prompted. She laughs when I tease and flirt with her.


Here's the big thing. I spent the first 20 years since puberty having a very hard time getting girls. I was passive, and I believed that doing the right thing was the way to be and never understood why it never worked for me. I had a hard time approaching girls, but eventually I decided it wasn't getting me anywhere and I needed to just start trying to initiate dating (my first foray into alpha behavior). When I met my wife, I was about as alpha as I'd ever been, she was a little intimidated by me.

But then I got comfortable, and SHE did a lot that shifted my behavior from alpha to beta.

Look, I'm ALWAYS going to have nice guy in me. I value that. I will not destroy that because I'm learning the value of the alpha behavior in keeping my wife in a state of attraction towards me. 

Now, I unapologetically smack my wife's behind these days and she loves it. I've been at this less than 2 weeks, and maybe it'll change over time, but she's more attracted to me but she doesn't want to have sex every day - that's fine, she wanted it every day back when she was 21 when we first met and I couldn't keep up, I have an ED issue now and I couldn't keep up with every day anyway.. It's more than once a week, and in between it's more touching and otherwise intimate connection than we've had since the euphoria of our initial relationship.

I've told my story here, and every step of the way someone else chimes in and says they've been there.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

*Dean* said:


> So for the men that follow the principles in this book.
> 
> Is it ok to cheat on your wife for with holding sex or for any reason in the marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you actually read this book? Please tell me what page Athol says to cheat. 

On page 281 in the chapter of mistakes he covers cheating by the man in a bad light. He later expounds on how to deal with a cheating wife.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> IMO, this post is a great example of what is wrong with so many women today. While I won't excuse Dan's cheating, I can recognize that it is possible for his wife to have helped create a poor marriage that was vulnerable to infidelity.
> 
> Dan helped create a poor marriage dynamic as well as his wife. Why did his wife cheat? Because she is an evil woman? Women don't create all of the problems in the relationship. Men who think that they are right and their wives are wrong cannot understand why their wives withdraw.
> 
> ...


There are many woman who are quite realistic. You have to remember where you are. The wives that troubled men talk about are themselves in crisis. That is not representative of all women. I am certain you know women who are centered.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

So weigh in guys. How many guys actually read this book, followed the concepts and did not improve something about your marriage or yourself or both?

I can say that this book coupled with His Needs Her Needs were a godsend. I dare say my wife smiles more. I sure do.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Most marriages today face these same troubles. Not all. It is pervasive. Otherwise the divorce rate would not be so high. There would not be people in affairs to the extent that they are. People are looking for needs being met by opposite sex friends and not their spouses.

It is the rare marriage that could not use some additional passion in it.

So maybe Athol's book would only help 60% of marriages. But even if it helps only some, for those marriages it is very important.

So it is worth reading the book if you put and it down and go ... I knew all that. I am not trying to sell his book, but for the cost of the book how many beers could you have. I bet the books does more for many marriages than the beer. And I like beer.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

I want to expand, thanks for the like Entropy - this expansion will relate to some of what I was discussing when I asked you about things that first brought me to this forum.

Before I read this book, I had been going through this seperation process and was trying to figure out how to fix the relationship. I had already realized some of my mistakes, at the time I thought I had realized a big one because when she expressed frustration, I reacted defensively instead of listening. 

One of these days after I started my new job and it was her day of working at home, I came home for lunch. I forgot something and came back, she was about to start masturbating to girl-on-girl porn (not itself a big deal as she's done that around once a month most of the time we've been together) This bothered me though because I'd expressed my desire to have sex together, and here she was - horny after all but not dissipating it and denying the chance to share it with me.

Here's the interesting part - she said the reason she wanted to masturbate to girl-girl porn was that it wasn't like cheating with another guy, and it was free from drama!

It didn't click at the time, but now that I look back - holy cow, I was being a beta type dude, but I wasn't being a MAN I was being a drama queen. 

And it's not like I hadn't heard a lot of the points in AK's book before, I had, but they just had not been communicated in a way that clicked in my mind. With MMSL these things clicked.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I never posted my situation in one place to explain why I am here. Briefly, my father cheated on my mother with one woman form the time I was 18 months old up until he died. My sister was 3.5 and my mother was 8 months pregnant with my brother. 

All I can remember of my childhood are the fights and then my mother finally withdrawing into herself. My father continued to cheat and was largely absent. He was a good provider.

After he died my mother began to talk about what happened. She had no skills and she sacrificed for us and remained with him. 

The lives of myself and my mother, sister and brother were adversely effected by a cheating father. It screwed up our lives. It was my entire childhood. I had to take care of my mother I had to watch her suffer and try to be the best I could be. I wanted to make her happy so badly. I had no childhood. 

I am trying to forgive my father. I know he did not love us and was only concerned about himself. But I am trying to find a way to forgive him for bringing me into the world to be so miserable. 

I would rather die than do anything to hurt my husband and kids. 

When our marriage was troubled, I met a man who I could have fallen in love with if I were not married. We had a lot in common and there was a strong attraction between us. 

He was doing a postdoc in my lab. As soon as I realized what was happening, I had him transferred to another lab. It was not easy to do because I felt happy when he was there. However, I avoided him and was cordial but cool when we met. 

I know my father could have loved us enough to forgo the cheating. If I can do it for the sake of my family, anyone can.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I never posted my situation in one place to explain why I am here. Briefly, my father cheated on my mother with one woman form the time I was 18 months old up until he died. My sister was 3.5 and my mother was 8 months pregnant with my brother.
> 
> All I can remember of my childhood are the fights and then my mother finally withdrawing into herself. My father continued to cheat and was largely absent. He was a good provider.
> 
> ...


Catherine, I am sorry for this. My father was an abusive alcoholic. He was never around to guide me on being a man and was not a good example of a father or a husband. Did he cheat? Maybe. I did not speak with him for ten years after leaving home.

We have chatted and I think you are one of the most together people around. You are a wonderful person. I understand your hurts and appreciate the efforts you do make on this forum to bring men and women together instead of battling each other.

But this is not what Athol is about. I assume you are responding to a poster who said how he felt.

So I grew up being taught to be a nice guy. Then I spent eight years in the Navy and got a whole new perspective. Both had some benefits. But both were extremes. I think a good guy emerged form that combo. I wish however I had a father who showed me by example how to be a loving husband. So I had to figure it out on my own. I wish I had a book like MMSL way back when.

I think most marriages need all they help they can get. It is not easy.
I see many marriages as being abusive. There are all kinds of abuse.
It takes two loving people with a clue to succeed.

Cheating is wrong on every level.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

tacoma said:


> Catherine,
> 
> I find great irony in the fact that your entire post is validation of Athol Kays portrait of what men are up against concerning the unrealistic point of view of relationships women are brainwashed into believing.
> 
> ...


You will have to explain why a book grounded in the imagination of a Athol could be validated by anything I wrote. 

OK, if you believe in fairy airy tales, maybe. It like those prince charming fables that guys allude to so often. You have the male version of magical thinking. 

Of course you were successful in improving your relationship. You were willing to work hard at it. I'll bet if you think about it the answers came from many sources. If you never read the book you would have succeeded because you were ready to make it happen. 

I am certain there is advice in the book that is very good and helped. But do you think he came up with it? You can tell the difference between what he invented and what he borrowed from other sources.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> Catherine, I am sorry for this. My father was an abusive alcoholic. He was never around to guide me on being a man and was not a good example of a father or a husband. Did he cheat? Maybe.
> We have chatted and I think you are one of the most together people around. You are a wonderful person.
> 
> But what does this have to do with Athol? I assume you are responding to a poster who said how he felt.
> ...


Thank you for saying that E. It is very kind of you. I know we clash sometimes and it is big of you to say anything positive and supportive. I go though these periods of sadness that I am frankly sick of. I no longer bother my husband with them. I come here and rant. (sorry).

My husband and I grew up together in the same neighborhood. He and his family have helped me enormously. I have learned to self soothe. 

I think the chaos of an alcoholic parent is worse than a cheating one. To come from that to be the man you are now amazes me. You have done so well. Thanks for telling me, it is an inspiration for me to do better. 

We have chatted by PM and you have no idea how your kindness and wisdom in your post and in our PM's have helped me.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Wow. Thank you Catherine.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> You will have to explain why a book grounded in the imagination of a Athol could be validated by anything I wrote.


Because it`s not grounded in his imagination.
It`s a fact that our women are given absolutely false information about everything from sex/body image/relationships/ and mens needs/wants to how to raise children.
Athol points these false beliefs out and informs men how to get around them without opposing their women`s entire world view.
It also points out the false beliefs our men are brainwashed into and how to drop them.



> OK, if you believe in fairy airy tales, maybe. It like those prince charming fables that guys allude to so often. You have the male version of magical thinking.


The fairy tales are the things our women are taught Catherine, you just displayed aspects of them in your earlier post.



> Of course you were successful in improving your relationship. You were willing to work hard at it. I'll bet if you think about it the answers came from many sources. If you never read the book you would have succeeded because you were ready to make it happen.
> 
> I am certain there is advice in the book that is very good and helped. But do you think he came up with it? You can tell the difference between what he invented and what he borrowed from other sources.


I never said Athol did invent it.

In fact I stated I had been working the concepts Athol espouses my entire life, well before I ever heard of MMSL.
Ironically it was my mother who first put me onto these "secrets" as a young boy.

What Athol does is takes it all and puts it into a system that a man can work to improve his attractiveness to his woman.
That`s it...that`s the entire extent of what MMSL is about.

Here`s another statement that can be spun into something it isn`t.

Athol Kay has written the best "Players Book" I`ve ever seen.
It`s the pick-up artists handbook extraordinaire.

The novelty is it`s designed to teach you how to "pick-up" your wife, where it differs is it tells you how to keep picking her up forever, over and over again.

The women in my life have responded to the concepts he promotes always.

If there is a problem with what he`s writing his detractors should look at why women think/feel the way they do because he`s merely taking his lead from them.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,
You need to consider the toll this is taking on you. You never spoke to your mother about their physical relationship. You have no idea what it was. You married well and are very physically attracted to your H. I am not blaming your mother, simply saying you have no real context.

As for me - I am going to directly respond to your constant refrain on this topic which is: if you are willing to find a sexual alternative to your wife that means:
- sex with her is just physical, there is no real emotional component to it
- you ONLY care about sex, and don't see her as a person
- you are totally selfish
- and finally you are a pig, wrapped in a mans body

This is just for me, but truly my wiring is fairly standard:
1. Sex is primarily an emotional thing for me. It is more raw physical for my wife. 
2. This is so offensive I will only make one comment about it. At my income/fitness level I can easily procure a 25 year old third world woman, and with a prenup have an intensely sexual relationship at minimal cost for up to ten years (the outer limit of most prenups). I have zero desire to do that - despite my wife's physical situation.
3. Deep sigh. No - I try hard to give more than I ask for. That also is a wiring thing.
4. Really?


QUOTE=Catherine602;784007]I never posted my situation in one place to explain why I am here. Briefly, my father cheated on my mother with one woman form the time I was 18 months old up until he died. My sister was 3.5 and my mother was 8 months pregnant with my brother. 

All I can remember of my childhood are the fights and then my mother finally withdrawing into herself. My father continued to cheat and was largely absent. He was a good provider.

After he died my mother began to talk about what happened. She had no skills and she sacrificed for us and remained with him. 

The lives of myself and my mother, sister and brother were adversely effected by a cheating father. It screwed up our lives. It was my entire childhood. I had to take care of my mother I had to watch her suffer and try to be the best I could be. I wanted to make her happy so badly. I had no childhood. 

I am trying to forgive my father. I know he did not love us and was only concerned about himself. But I am trying to find a way to forgive him for bringing me into the world to be so miserable. 

I would rather die than do anything to hurt my husband and kids. 

When our marriage was troubled, I met a man who I could have fallen in love with if I were not married. We had a lot in common and there was a strong attraction between us. 

He was doing a postdoc in my lab. As soon as I realized what was happening, I had him transferred to another lab. It was not easy to do because I felt happy when he was there. However, I avoided him and was cordial but cool when we met. 

I know my father could have loved us enough to forgo the cheating. If I can do it for the sake of my family, anyone can.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> This. This is the problem. If your wife did not meet your sexual expectations, why not act morally and divorce? Sex seems to have nothing to do with love. If it did, you would have said you would divorce and seek the affection and love of another women.
> 
> Divorce is painful but it gives you a chance to make an orderly exit. Prepare your children and give your wife some consideration as a human being.
> 
> ...


First off, it's not sex, it's love.
My wife and I were married for over 25 years and had grown complacent in our marriage. I was not an ogre, she was not a shrew. We just quit working on our relationship and made terrible, terrible mistakes.
If we were to put ourselves in that situation again, it would result in divorce before I cheated.
I know now(and didn't before) how one has to work HARD to make a marriage.
Sex and love intertwine. I know some people can have sex without love and love without sex. I am not one of them.
My wife will likely see this thread and believe me, it will come as no surprise. We have had numerous discussions on what we expect from each other. And we deliver.
I know what is expected out of me as a husband. I do my absolute best to deliver on those conditions. I have failed from time to time because we are human beings and we aren't perfect.
If it simplifies it for you, if she's not in the mood on Friday night, I don't go looking for a hooker.

Let me add on edit that there is no one, *no one* that I love more than my beautiful wife. She means everything to me and I love her with every fiber of my being. I know that she loves me the same way.
Both of us have responsibilities and obligations in order for that love to continue. It is NOT unconditional.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dan,
Main difference between us is I am afraid of my wife - enough to go frontal. When we hit the wall it was sudden, intense and brutally honest. She immediately knew what her choices were. I pulled no punches and hold no grudges. From start to finish it took 5 days to reach an understanding. 

Her opening bid was we could be celibate. My offer was SHE could be celibate, with no tension as long as she accepted I wasn't going to be.



DanF said:


> First off, it's not sex, it's love.
> My wife and I were married for over 25 years and had grown complacent in our marriage. I was not an ogre, she was not a shrew. We just quit working on our relationship and made terrible, terrible mistakes.
> If we were to put ourselves in that situation again, it would result in divorce before I cheated.
> I know now(and didn't before) how one has to work HARD to make a marriage.
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Dan,
> Main difference between us is I am afraid of my wife - enough to go frontal. When we hit the wall it was sudden, intense and brutally honest. She immediately knew what her choices were. I pulled no punches and hold no grudges. From start to finish it took 5 days to reach an understanding.
> 
> Her opening bid was we could be celibate. My offer was SHE could be celibate, with no tension as long as she accepted I wasn't going to be.
> ...


I don't think that I could do that.
If I were working as hard as I do, providing a really nice lifestyle, I have to have a full blown, all the way in wife.
I am not going to bust my ass to get turned down by a woman that I love.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM you make me laugh even time you say that you are afraid of your wife. I just don't believe it. You seem too crafty to be stumped by much. You can probably wiggle your way out of any of her gambits. 

I appreciate the responses. I will have to read them over carefully and answer tomorrow. My dreamy husband is about to retire and I think I am going to be bold and attack him. He he.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I can't be mad at you Catherine because you truly are such a good wife. Your H is lucky and he knows it. 


QUOTE=Catherine602;784296]MEM you make me laugh even time you say that you are afraid of your wife. I just don't believe it. You seem too crafty to be stumped by much. You can probably wiggle your way out of any of her gambits. 

I appreciate the responses. I will have to read them over carefully and answer tomorrow. My dreamy husband is about to retire and I think I am going to be bold and attack him. He he.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dan,
I have no idea what would have happened if she had decided to go "full frontal head to head with me".

I am thinking that:
- there is zero chance WE would be going to Grand Cayman this December 
- I am stumped - I love my wife a lot - a lot lot. I did not feel strong enough to escape the massive emotional gravity well she had created during a 20 year period 
- so I decided to force the issue by seeing if she felt strong enough to try to escape MY gravity field - I put the ball entirely in her court and suddenly 
- was on the receivIng end of what folks here call "hysterical bonding" 
- never would have guessed that the idea of another woman touching me would make her simultaneously furious and aroused

As for this "I give a 100 percent - so being sexually shut down would be a non starter" I fully understand your point. Still stumped. I don't know how this would have played out. I wasn't bluffing. She absolutely knew that. I don't bluff on major stuff. 

I would have been sad. The whole fidelity thing really means something to me. And it is also true that I have worked hard for her to have the life she wanted. When she finally explained that it really "hurt" to have intercourse, everything got better and worse at the same time. Mostly better. Now we do "other stuff".




DanF said:


> I don't think that I could do that.
> If I were working as hard as I do, providing a really nice lifestyle, I have to have a full blown, all the way in wife.
> I am not going to bust my ass to get turned down by a woman that I love.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

My take on MMSP, is that it's a tool, just like any other tool, sometimes you have to keep looking for the right wrench to fit, and work on things correctly, be it his book, or any other, counseling, TAM...all tools..

Most men ( and I do mean most) really will try and do anything because we LOVE OUR WIVES more than life and want to be with them forever....We want to be prince charming, We want to slay the dragons(anything we feel is hurting you, including oursleves) and lay them at your feet, while we stand there bloody and battered (physical,emotionaly) waiting for a real smile from you, a real kiss....we would glady slay a 1000 more, walk thru hell smiling, anticipating a smile & kiss...to feel loved............


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

> Most men ( and I do mean most) really will try and do anything because we LOVE OUR WIVES more than life and want to be with them forever....We want to be prince charming, We want to slay the dragons(anything we feel is hurting you, including oursleves) and lay them at your feet, while we stand there bloody and battered (physical,emotionaly) waiting for a real smile from you, a real kiss....we would glady slay a 1000 more, walk thru hell smiling, anticipating a smile & kiss...to feel loved............


When slaying dragons doesn't help, maybe we're slaying the wrong ones? I guess that's when the Athol stuff is most useful.

ETA: I just explained 'fitness tests' to my mom who has done a good deal of Christian/marital counseling and she said, yes, she's familiar with that concept.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Here's another point to consider-

Since reading MMSL, I've found that the resulting change in my attitude has also helped tremendously with my capabilities as a parent to my children.

When my wife had to take on the alpha role she wasn't getting from me, she became bitter and resentful. My 5 year old daughter modelled this behavior. She started trying to take charge and treated authority figures just the way mommy treats daddy - with no respect.

Since I started taking charge, my daughter still lashes out more than she should but it's improved and I'm sure will continue improving - but she will follow direction now much much better, both from me and my wife. At school as well apparently.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

nader said:


> When slaying dragons doesn't help, maybe we're slaying the wrong ones? I guess that's when the Athol stuff is most useful.
> 
> ETA: I just explained 'fitness tests' to my mom who has done a good deal of Christian/marital counseling and she said, yes, she's familiar with that concept.


Dude... the "Old Me" was slaying dragons. I reroofed our house, rewired the entire electrical system, replumbed and all kinds of huge things for her. And I did everything she asked, and she asked a lot. 

I wasn't doing what she wanted though.

Now I am. She just texted me with not a bit of prompting "love you". I can't help feeling "It's good to be the king!"


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

MMSL is as anti-cheating as you can get. 

Catherine, hearing about your upbringing, I can understand why the discussion in this thread could press hot buttons for you.

Maybe rather than getting upset about what you think the book says, you should read the book to see what it actually says.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

:iagree:

Its about being the best you possible and expecting the same from your spouse, helping one another get there.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Catherine, I see that people tell you that you misunderstand the book and should read it to see what it really says, but I think it's understandable that your experiences give you cause to have aversions about doing that which would be a strong motivator for you to not want to read it.

I'll try applying what I've learned from the book to your story.



Catherine602 said:


> I never posted my situation in one place to explain why I am here. Briefly, my father cheated on my mother with one woman form the time I was 18 months old up until he died. My sister was 3.5 and my mother was 8 months pregnant with my brother.
> 
> All I can remember of my childhood are the fights and then my mother finally withdrawing into herself. My father continued to cheat and was largely absent. He was a good provider.
> 
> After he died my mother began to talk about what happened. She had no skills and she sacrificed for us and remained with him.


It's a little difficult to apply MMSL because there isn't a lot of information about the behavior of your dad and mom. But it would be the likely conclusion that your dad had a stronger natural attractiveness (sex rank in the parlance of the book) than your mom. 

Your mom sounds like her reaction to the situation may have been somewhat like the way I reacted to my wife's thread to separate. I didn't understand, I thought I deserved better - but the actions I took in response to the situation enabled it, and by doing so I only sent the message that I did not deserve better and dug myself in deeper.



> The lives of myself and my mother, sister and brother were adversely effected by a cheating father. It screwed up our lives. It was my entire childhood. I had to take care of my mother I had to watch her suffer and try to be the best I could be. I wanted to make her happy so badly. I had no childhood.


So my previous bit tried to apply the book to your mom based on information that wasn't provided. The book is intended for men with beta characteristics who are having marital difficulties due to a lack of alpha characteristics, men such as myself. I don't know that your dad would be the target audience, but I would think that if it was for him, it would be intended to make these modifications to his behavior:

First it sounds as if your dad was not getting his needs satisfied by your mom. The book adresses his faults in that situation. Obviously, the reaction of your mom probably repelled him. But he should've taken charge and realized that he was the man of the house, and if she's not happy it might have something to do with him meeting HER needs. That's something the book teaches well.

If the situation was what it was in spite of him trying to meet your mom's needs, he should've been man enough to divorce her. You made this point. Then again, I don't know enough about when this happenned or whatnot, and I know in times past social stigmas and so forth made this a less desirable option than maybe it is now.

As for the effect on the family, particularly the children including yourself - were you affected more by the unfaithfulness or by the fact that your dad wasn't providing the needs that a dad should be providing to his children: a positive rolemodel and a leader of the family.



> I am trying to forgive my father. I know he did not love us and was only concerned about himself. But I am trying to find a way to forgive him for bringing me into the world to be so miserable.


Well. It isn't about him anymore, it's about you. If you are to forgive him, it should be because you need to.

People can be a force for good in your lives by providing an anti-role-model. Think of the positive characteristics within yourself that resulted from his negative characteristics, your determination to be faithful in ways he wasn't.



> I would rather die than do anything to hurt my husband and kids.


The book would advise that this is a risky approach. In a way you sound as if you'd repeat your mother's mistakes, shouldn't your mom have held him accountable by divorcing him? 



> When our marriage was troubled, I met a man who I could have fallen in love with if I were not married. We had a lot in common and there was a strong attraction between us.
> 
> He was doing a postdoc in my lab. As soon as I realized what was happening, I had him transferred to another lab. It was not easy to do because I felt happy when he was there. However, I avoided him and was cordial but cool when we met.
> 
> I know my father could have loved us enough to forgo the cheating. If I can do it for the sake of my family, anyone can.


I think my wife would say similar things about our troubled time. 

I suspected an EA, and my wife long ago was unfaithful and at that time vowed never to do it again and doubled down when we had kids because she'd never do that to them. My wife cut off a friendship. 

But the people here on this forum didn't let me get away with accepting that, because the suspected EA happenned because I wasn't meeting her needs - and just because my wife cut off the situation didn't mean the underlying root cause had went away.

If I hadn't read MMSL and made the changes I needed to make to meet my wife's needs, she'd probably repeat the situation. Maybe next time she'd cut it off again. Is that lifetime of seeking needs elsewhere and denying them to herself out of a sense of duty something she should have to endure? Is it one that she could really have kept up indefinitely?


Here's the bottom line: real men provide for their wives needs, which makes the wife happy and makes for a wife that the man wants to be with. It's a chain or a circle or whatever, and any broken link is a recipe for disaster. And that's what the book is meant to fix, in my opinion after having read it and from how I've lived it so far.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

> Here's the bottom line: real men provide for their wives needs, which makes the wife happy and makes for a wife that the man wants to be with. It's a chain or a circle or whatever, and any broken link is a recipe for disaster. And that's what the book is meant to fix, in my opinion after having read it and from how I've lived it so far.


But this is really just Marriage 101.. I've heard this same idea from a number of sources including pastors I've talked to and different books i've looked at. I just don't think he's uncovered some fundamental secret that you aren't going to hear from someone more qualified.

Athol has good tips and tricks for how to tweak things and make it work better for you - and his tone is funny and entertaining which relates better to most men who don't want to read some other marriage book. He is also good for handling extreme, crisis scenarios, but hopefully for most men it won't get to that point.

I understand his advice has helped lots of people, I still think the Game/ranking stuff is a bit shallow and over the top so I can definitely see where Catherine is coming from. At the same time, if I was entrenched in the 'manosphere' or pickup artist community I can see how Athol would look like a teddy bear by comparison.

I've been reading "Love and Respect".. it is more Christian-based which might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I think it gets much much closer to the heart of things than Athol does.


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

nader said:


> But this is really just Marriage 101.


Maybe, but they don't teach that class in high school or college, thus many men turn to MMSL to learn the coursework as continuing education.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

nader said:


> But this is really just Marriage 101.. I've heard this same idea from a number of sources including pastors I've talked to and different books i've looked at. I just don't think he's uncovered some fundamental secret that you aren't going to hear from someone more qualified.


Where I think Athol really adds value is letting men know that what women and society are saying women need may not in fact be accurate, particularly as it relates to attraction and intimacy. All the respect and helping with chores in the world did little to keep my wife attracted to me or want to be adventerous in the bedroom. What did work was dating her, being more like that guy she first dated and married (a bit more independent and doing some things for myself) and then after laying that ground work and her trusting it was real, taking the lead to where we both wanted to go.



> I understand his advice has helped lots of people, I still think the Game/ranking stuff is a bit shallow and over the top so I can definitely see where Catherine is coming from. At the same time, if I was entrenched in the 'manosphere' or pickup artist community I can see how Athol would look like a teddy bear by comparison.


Whether we like it or not, these PUA techniques too often work. While over the top, Athol is talking to "nice guys" who are often too respectful of their wives. Hitting them with a 2x4 is often necessary to get even a little movement. For those where they need to be, I can see how this message may come across as too crass.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

after you man up you can stomp around the house pounding your chest and grunting I need sex in low guteral tones and then throw the women down and penetrate her forcfully without any foreplay then blow your load and get up and say now go make me a sandwich b*tch. and as shes on her way to the kitchen tell her how fat her a$$ looks in thoese jeans.all while watching mad men and drinking beer as you fart on the couch.

I think you can take manning up to far.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

_Hold On to your N.U.T.S._ is also good.. it is more personal integrity, less game, while still being written for men. 

I should probably go read that again soon.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nader,
What you call "tips and tricks" I call a genuine understanding of male/female wiring and interaction patterns. 

Dr. Phil is generally so busy pandering to his female audience - all I know is if I acted like the little puppy dog that he tells men to be - my W would NEVER have sex with me. 

Athol takes this stuff further than I would. Still, without his "tips and tricks" as you call them - the average "mostly beta" male has no chance of a good outcome with a more alpha wife. And I do not just mean in bed. 




nader said:


> But this is really just Marriage 101.. I've heard this same idea from a number of sources including pastors I've talked to and different books i've looked at. I just don't think he's uncovered some fundamental secret that you aren't going to hear from someone more qualified.
> 
> Athol has good tips and tricks for how to tweak things and make it work better for you - and his tone is funny and entertaining which relates better to most men who don't want to read some other marriage book. He is also good for handling extreme, crisis scenarios, but hopefully for most men it won't get to that point.
> 
> ...


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

nader said:


> But this is really just Marriage 101.. I've heard this same idea from a number of sources including pastors I've talked to and different books i've looked at. I just don't think he's uncovered some fundamental secret that you aren't going to hear from someone more qualified.


Good point, and one which bears a response. I've absolutely heard probably everything in Athol's book. I've heard it in the marriage counselling we went through with our pastor before we got married. I've heard it in other books, some of which I more likely read before I even met my wife. I heard it in counselling I've been to with my wife. I've heard it from my wife.

Never until I read Athol's book did it sink in. That's because he lays a biological framework for why and how the things that work with women work the way they work. And he did it in a way that reached into me and took hold the way that none of the other ways I've been told the exact same thing took hold.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> Dan helped create a poor marriage dynamic as well as his wife. Why did his wife cheat? Because she is an evil woman? Women don't create all of the problems in the relationship.


That's true. That's why I said his wife 'helped' create the poor marriage. Most bad marriages are joint efforts.

And while cheating is evil, most cheaters aren't horrible people. They're just people in unhappy marriages who make poor choices.



Catherine602 said:


> Is your premise is that a man's sexual satisfaction is the most important thing in a relationship and that if his wife withdraws he has a right to get sex elsewhere? It might be more functional to seek help before orgasms.


My premise is that a man's sexual satisfaction is ONE of the most important things in a relationship TO THE MAN. If his wife is unwilling to meet his sexual needs, the man won't be justified in cheating, but it should surprise no one if he cheats.



Catherine602 said:


> Are you are blind to the fact that women are cheating almost as much as men? If infidelity is excusable for men I guess woman feel the same way.
> From what I read on this forum from men who have had cheating wives, it not too acceptable for them either.


You are confusing my meanings. Excusable isn't the same as predictable. I'm saying that it is entirely predictable for a spouse who is not having his, or her, needs met, to go outside the marriage to have them met. I'm not saying that it's justified, or excusable, or desirable, or anything else that you're attributing to me. I'm saying it's predictable.



Catherine602 said:


> There is an unrealistic expectation on the part of many men as well. They come in to marriage with visions of porn sex. They expect their wives to provide them with sexual variety, replicate the enthusiasm of the porn actresses, like porn sex acts.


That could be true. Although, from my experience on this forum, I think that's the minority. I think for every man who is dissatisfied with enthusiastic, yet realistic, sex from his wife, there are dozens who suffer from wives who believe that they are under no obligation to meet their husbands' sexual needs.



Catherine602 said:


> I agree with at lest part of this. Marriage is not primarily about sex. It is unrealistic to believe it is. There are the needs of more than one person to consider. It takes maturity to be able to forgo a few orgasms when necessary - illness, pregnancy, monthly cycle, children. We all have to do that.


No one is talking about wives taking a few days off due to illness. We're talking about the entitled princess attitude that many wives have. We're talking about wives who believe that their husbands should be grateful to serve them in sexless marriages. And these women are usually surprised when they catch their husband having sex with another woman.

Marriage is primarily about sex. If I didn't want sex from my wife, I would either live alone, or have a male roommate. There are other aspects to marriage, sure. And many of them are positive. But if you took a survey of men to see how many would be satisfied with a sexless marriage, I'm confident that a very, very, very low number would be.



Catherine602 said:


> You did not succeed because of that book. You succeeded because you wanted to. You were motivated to seek answers and to try ways to change your situation. You would have succeeded without that book.


Not at all. I was always motivated to have a good marriage. What changed was the information I had. If a man has only ever listened to Oprah, the Lifetime Channel, and chick flicks, then he thinks the way to romance a woman is to be as beta as possible. That's what I thought. And my wife wasn't interested.

And then, I found Athol Kay, and the manosphere. I read through the blog posts and thought back to the things I did while we were dating. Things that I would never dream of doing after marriage. They were too alpha. So I upped the Alpha. And my wife became interested.



Catherine602 said:


> There are many woman who are quite realistic. You have to remember where you are. The wives that troubled men talk about are themselves in crisis. That is not representative of all women. I am certain you know women who are centered.


Yes, I do. And I'm not woman-bashing. Most of the time, it's not even their fault. I know with my wife, she didn't understand what she was looking for. She just knew that I wasn't giving her what she wanted. But, then she would listen to Oprah talking about how men should help around the house, and she would start thinking that, if I would wash the dishes 6 nights a week instead of 5, and vacuum as well, then she would feel attracted. It was just the wrong thing to do.

It's like leaving a store and pushing on the door, but it won't open. So you push harder. But it won't budge. So you get embarrassed and keep pushing. After a few seconds, you notice the sign that says, "pull." When you pull, it opens effortlessly.


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

I think Catherine is just really angry at men, but she isn't sure why.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

MEM - I agree the biology stuff was informative and helpful.

Dr. Phil... makes me cringe. And isn't he divorced now?


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

chillymorn said:


> after you man up you can stomp around the house pounding your chest and grunting I need sex in low guteral tones and then throw the women down and penetrate her forcfully without any foreplay then blow your load and get up and say now go make me a sandwich b*tch. and as shes on her way to the kitchen tell her how fat her a$$ looks in thoese jeans.all while watching mad men and drinking beer as you fart on the couch.
> 
> I think you can take manning up to far.


Anything can be taken too far. Someone taking an idea too far doesn't make the idea any less valid.


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> after you man up you can stomp around the house pounding your chest and grunting I need sex in low guteral tones and then throw the women down and penetrate her forcfully without any foreplay then blow your load and get up and say now go make me a sandwich b*tch. and as shes on her way to the kitchen tell her how fat her a$$ looks in thoese jeans.all while watching mad men and drinking beer as you fart on the couch.
> 
> I think you can take manning up to far.


You also can tiptoe around the house afraid to do anything that make your wife angry, be too timid to ask for sex, do all the cooking, cleaning, and childcare while your wife does nothing, help your wife pick out the outfit she will wear when she goes to visit her boyfriend that night while you take care of the kids, allow her to scream obscenities at you, physically assault you, and totally subjugate yourself to her.

That, of course, would be taking manning up not far enough.

Any more ridiculous extreme hypothetical situations you would like to throw out there?


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

If the sex stops, it's over in my eyes. My wife knows this as well.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I am NOT recommending the following approach - just describing what I observed.

When menopause reduced my wife's desire and pain caused the start of sexual aversion:
- she didn't bother to play the game of "excuses" with me - just said directly "I don't want to do this anymore" 
- when I explained her options I was not surprised that she got angry, I was however stunned by how turned on she seemed to be by my outwardly casual explanation of what I planned to do

ThIs is "Athol" type stuff. Raw, primal, direct and very boundary driven. I find it odd that in general the initial reaction to this approach is so negative. Why is that? 






PHTlump said:


> That's true. That's why I said his wife 'helped' create the poor marriage. Most bad marriages are joint efforts.
> 
> And while cheating is evil, most cheaters aren't horrible people. They're just people in unhappy marriages who make poor choices.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> I am NOT recommending the following approach - just describing what I observed.
> 
> When menopause reduced my wife's desire and pain caused the start of sexual aversion:
> - she didn't bother to play the game of "excuses" with me - just said directly "I don't want to do this anymore"
> ...


I am lucky. When my wife became pre-menopausal, she got hornier than a three peckered billy goat.

However, I am prepared for the menopausal "I don't want sex anymore." deal. I'm not sure how I'll handle it, but we will come to a compromise, I'm sure.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

DanF said:


> I am lucky. When my wife became pre-menopausal, she got hornier than a three peckered billy goat.


Same here, and it has been a challenge. 

It's interesting to read comments that ladies who have experienced this phenomenon have made. Most end up apologizing to their husbands and saying they truly had no idea that sexual desire could be so intense.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Where I think Athol really adds value is letting men know that what women and society are saying women need may not in fact be accurate, particularly as it relates to attraction and intimacy. All the respect and helping with chores in the world did little to keep my wife attracted to me or want to be adventerous in the bedroom. <snip>
> Whether we like it or not, these PUA techniques too often work.


I think this is the problem - it's easy to read it as "poor little women don't really know their own minds and what's good for them" and "here's a trick to get her to do what you want". It isn't exactly like that, but it's near enough (via semantics, as stated above...).

These sorts of things become the turds in the stewpot. And to some people, no matter how good the rest of the stew is, the turds make it repellent.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> I think this is the problem - it's easy to read it as "poor little women don't really know their own minds and what's good for them" and "here's a trick to get her to do what you want". It isn't exactly like that, but it's near enough (via semantics, as stated above...).
> 
> These sorts of things become the turds in the stewpot. And to some people, no matter how good the rest of the stew is, the turds make it repellent.


I don't disagree. Yet what can be done about it. No approach or communication is perfect and none reach every audience.

I am reminded of the saying that the enemy of good is perfect. Just because some can not see the good in MMSL does not mean it does not have value.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> I think this is the problem - it's easy to read it as "poor little women don't really know their own minds and what's good for them" and "here's a trick to get her to do what you want". It isn't exactly like that, but it's near enough (via semantics, as stated above...).
> 
> These sorts of things become the turds in the stewpot. And to some people, no matter how good the rest of the stew is, the turds make it repellent.


Well said. 

Is showing care and affection with a little male panache manipulating a woman or giving her what she really wants? 

Is spinning her on the dance floor manipulating her or giving her what she wants?

Is grabbing and dipping her when you're alone in an elevator manipulating her or giving her what she wants? 

--There's really nothing that can't be spun negatively or assigned a base motive if someone is determined to....


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Posse said:


> You also can tiptoe around the house afraid to do anything that make your wife angry, be too timid to ask for sex, do all the cooking, cleaning, and childcare while your wife does nothing, help your wife pick out the outfit she will wear when she goes to visit her boyfriend that night while you take care of the kids, allow her to scream obscenities at you, physically assault you, and totally subjugate yourself to her.
> 
> That, of course, would be taking manning up not far enough.
> 
> Any more ridiculous extreme hypothetical situations you would like to throw out there?


sarcasim guys! I agree with the idea of manning up


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dan,
From what you describe she won't do that. 

My W and I had compromised on frequency. We both generally try to be very accommodating to each other. 

Her lack of desire didn't trigger the conversation. The painful intercourse was a real tipping point. If I had a time machine I would go back and really press the point that: "If you have pain you NEED to tell me".





DanF said:


> I am lucky. When my wife became pre-menopausal, she got hornier than a three peckered billy goat.
> 
> However, I am prepared for the menopausal "I don't want sex anymore." deal. I'm not sure how I'll handle it, but we will come to a compromise, I'm sure.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

> --There's really nothing that can't be spun negatively or assigned a base motive if someone is determined to....


I doubt anyone really has some kind of pointed anti-Athol agenda. 

But when he's recommended with such enthusiasm that borders on a personality cult, there is understandably going to be more scrutiny. 

I am all for critical thinking in general, and I'm just trying to discover my own personal philosophy for building a good marriage. I just want to separate the good stuff from the bullshyt, so that's where I'm coming from.

I don't care how many lives have been changed... nobody is above criticism.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> I think this is the problem - it's easy to read it as "poor little women don't really know their own minds and what's good for them" and "here's a trick to get her to do what you want". It isn't exactly like that, but it's near enough (via semantics, as stated above...).
> 
> These sorts of things become the turds in the stewpot. And to some people, no matter how good the rest of the stew is, the turds make it repellent.


My wife tricks me all the time.

She wears perfume from time to time. 
She will do her hair up.
She will wear sexy stuff to bed.
She will sit down next to me and cuddle.
She will set aside time so we can be alone.
She goes out of her way to meet my needs in many many different ways.
She sometimes uses lipstick and makeup. 
She will dress very nice when we go out.
She does things in thoughtful ways ... all the time.

Trickery!!!

So if you chnage your behavior in a positive way it is tricks? How is it just not having knowledge of what turns women on?

Women are always saying men just need to know what they need. So they try to find out. Make some changes that are successful and then it is dubbed as trickery. LOL.

So why does a husband have to play by someones rules and not use "trickery" and yet other men use this trickery on their wives and some of these wives love it. So much so they seek this attention elsewhere. Is attention trickery?

So all these years there are TV shows and magazines and books to advise women on how to be more alluring to their man or some other man but if a man writes a book of the same kind it is trickery.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

nader said:


> I doubt anyone really has some kind of pointed anti-Athol agenda.
> 
> But when he's recommended with such enthusiasm that borders on a personality cult, there is understandably going to be more scrutiny.
> 
> ...


Actually there are a few folks who have a lot of angst for Athol on this forum. They bring it up a lot. They will actulaly use it to high jack threads.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sawney,
It is often said on here "she doesn't KNOW what turns her on, so she can't tell you". 

I will tell you what the wife often does in that situation: She takes this as a free opportunity to get her husband to start doing whatever makes her life easier. Those requests might be fair. Often from what I read here, they are not fair when you factor in hours worked at an external job. 

A very common game:
Wife: I might want more sex if I was less stressed 
Husband: Tries to create the "mythical perfect environment" - which makes HIS stress level much, much higher and does a lot of damage to him over time. 

Because this isn't about her stress level. It is about her lack of desire. That stuff is just cruel and it is very common. 

Athol tells you the stuff that she may not even consciously realize about herself. 





Sawney Beane said:


> I think this is the problem - it's easy to read it as "poor little women don't really know their own minds and what's good for them" and "here's a trick to get her to do what you want". It isn't exactly like that, but it's near enough (via semantics, as stated above...).
> 
> These sorts of things become the turds in the stewpot. And to some people, no matter how good the rest of the stew is, the turds make it repellent.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

I read a lot of self help type books related to exercise and training. I read several articles in a typical day on the topic. It's a hobby.

Anyway, I have never read any of these books that I agreed with 100% or more importantly that were 100% targeted to me. 99% of the articles and books are someone restating facts based on existing concepts and ideas. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Someone has taken the time to create a book which is a compliation of ideas, and their personal expereinec anc comments to it. The fact that they can reach a given audience, be entertaining and convey information is what books are all about. 

I mean look Isacc newton is not putting out a whole lot of new literayure these days. Most of his good stuff he did when he was young anyway. Yet, countless folks have stound on his shoulders, using his ideas and have gone on form there. Isaac also built his ideas on others as well.

I am not religious so I am going to say that there is no book that is all things to all people. It is good to read more than one freakin book. You do not have to agree with everything in a book to come away the better for reading it.

But lets give Athol his due. In this day of branding and providing something the other person is not, is a good business strategy. You cannot please everyone. If you try you please no one. 

I got a lot form the book. It gave me some things I needed. I already had most of what I needed. This part was missing. 

His book is a pro marirage book. It is about having a better marriage. heavne forbid it should help add passion to a marriage. After all if people want passion they can go have an affair. Oh wait that is not good is it. So why is it wrong for a couple who is married to have an affair with each other?

Like I said I like the combo of His Needs her Needs AND MMSL. I am certain there are other great books too.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Sawney,
> It is often said on here "she doesn't KNOW what turns her on, so she can't tell you".
> 
> I will tell you what the wife often does in that situation: She takes this as a free opportunity to get her husband to start doing whatever makes her life easier. Those requests might be fair. Often from what I read here, they are not fair when you factor in hours worked at an external job.
> ...


I truly believe that many women do not know until someone in the marriage takes the lead. I happen to think a man who wants to improve his marriage should take the lead. A woman can do the same for her man.

We are told that many women like the idea of being taken passionately. Many women like the idea of their husband losing control. Not to the point of hurting them but just lost in their passion. Many many men are afraid to do this. Most women will not ask for this. They may just long for it in quiet desperation or some will even seek it elsewhere. 

So a husband that is willing to explore these areas or others may find that thier wifes responds well to it. What a thoughtful and loving thing for a man to do for his wife. Many women do not know what they really want.

Some men feel that they gain so much by having a wife who has a lot of sexual expereince. Ok fine. Why is that not a trick? Many men prefer to have a woman that has compatible experience. Why can they not explore sex together? I am totally against a husband asking his wife to go date other men to see what she likes.


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## joelmacdad (Jul 26, 2010)

I can honestly say my wife and I have been happily married for nearly 21 years now. For a long time I was the HD, "hot" and high barometer spouse. My wife has on occasion been HD, "hot" and high barometer, but not near as much as me. We are a good match for each other it is plain and simple.

With all of the "happiness" we have, I realized something about three years ago that Athol's blog, MMSL (that I bought, read twice), and men on TAM have helped me implement. And that is being in constant physical, spiritual and emotional control at all times in all situations with my wife, kids, our life experiences etc. It is also approaching my wife and our sex life with an edge, and sometimes a strong edge.

A couple of years ago I realized that my wife was a near expert at fitness testing. Whether or not she knew it, she was. MMSL and others taught me how to deal with them... calm, collected, but firm with an edge. Just as I mentioned.

I realized my wife being the "colder" person was feeling crowded in by my "hot" side and high barometer. I had to turn it down, and I learned that here and in MMSL.

What that awakened in my wife was this playfully aggressiveness I didn't know existed 3 years ago. It came out slowly, MMSL and others helped me enhance and perfect it, now it is becoming very natural.

I am happy for the book and have used it to enhance something that was good and only getting better.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't disagree. Yet what can be done about it. No approach or communication is perfect and none reach every audience.


You're right, of course. It does get treated as being the perfect package, though, especially on the blog. 



> I am reminded of the saying that the enemy of good is perfect. Just because some can not see the good in MMSL does not mean it does not have value.


That's what I mean about turds in the stewpot - the perceived turds destroy the value of ALL of the contents in some eyes. On the whole, it probably works more often than it fails, and mends more than it mars, but beware the hype that it's a never-fail, or that if it fails, it's because you're "disfunctional".


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> My wife tricks me all the time.
> 
> She wears perfume from time to time.
> She will do her hair up.
> ...


I think the problem is that the tricks are wrapped up in this idea that women are too stupid to know what they really want. Telling someone "it's for your own good" is usually a good way to p*ss them off.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Sawney Beane said:


> I think the problem is that the tricks are wrapped up in this idea that women are too stupid to know what they really want. Telling someone "it's for your own good" is usually a good way to p*ss them off.


That's a wrong way to look at it. Women use tricks because their body agenda makes it hard for them to understand what they want.

As we speak, my wife is playing a game with me through text messages.. I ask her a question with 2 choices and she makes up a third choice then goes silent when I ask for clarification. (partly understandable because she's watching the kids after school at the playground, but it leaves me hanging and chips away at causing a slight insecurity in me that makes it hard to maintain my alpha composure)


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Sawney,
> It is often said on here "she doesn't KNOW what turns her on, so she can't tell you".
> 
> I will tell you what the wife often does in that situation: She takes this as a free opportunity to get her husband to start doing whatever makes her life easier. Those requests might be fair. Often from what I read here, they are not fair when you factor in hours worked at an external job.
> ...


All of the above is correct. Athol's book(s) offers *an* approach to deal with this, but there's a strong element that it's _THE_ approach, and that if it doesn't work, replace the disfunctional wife with someone it works on.

I still think the biggest problem is in some of the ways that the description of the approach puts people's backs up. There was a guy on the blog a week or two back who had run the MAP, but his wife had found and read the book and was so incensed by what she read she took it on herself to deliberately reverse-plan him and put a spoke in his wheel, just to prove she wasn't someone who could be manipulated. Now, you can say this is cutting off her nose to spite her face, but it shows how people will react to words they don't like!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> I think the problem is that the tricks are wrapped up in this idea that women are too stupid to know what they really want. Telling someone "it's for your own good" is usually a good way to p*ss them off.


I don't think women are stupid at all. I did not read that in Athol's book. I did not get that impression either but I probably don't think that way so I missed it.

I also do not take it as my wife calling me stupid when she comes to bed in something sexy. I like it.

Most people go through their entire life experiencing new things. When you stop you are dead. There are some new things we find out we do not like. Many new things we discover we do like. We did not know we would. Other things we did not like years ago we find we do now. We evolve. Then there are things we choose not to try for various reasons.
Often it is just a matter of one partner of the other taking the lead.

Some folks can handle reading rhetoric and getting value from it. Others not so much. Their loss. No big deal if they can gain this from somewhere else though.

I don't mind reading stuff from someone who says you need to do this. I can make my own decisions on its value. Afterall they just may be right. I am good with that.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

WillK said:


> That's a wrong way to look at it. Women use tricks because their body agenda makes it hard for them to understand what they want.
> 
> As we speak, my wife is playing a game with me through text messages.. I ask her a question with 2 choices and she makes up a third choice then goes silent when I ask for clarification. (partly understandable because she's watching the kids after school at the playground, but it leaves me hanging and chips away at causing a slight insecurity in me that makes it hard to maintain my alpha composure)


If you're in a game of "maintaining alpha composure", I'd say you're overthinking it...


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Sawney Beane said:


> If you're in a game of "maintaining alpha composure", I'd say you're overthinking it...


No no.. It just occurred to me, she's giving me a fitness test to see if I'll get pissed off and frustrated again because she won't answer a direct question with the choices given.

Someone remind me how to pass this test?


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

WillK said:


> No no.. It just occurred to me, she's giving me a fitness test to see if I'll get pissed off and frustrated again because she won't answer a direct question with the choices given.
> 
> Someone remind me how to pass this test?


Okay I figured out what to try on my own. I texted her that for being mysterious, I will still need her to answer my question - which I told her she has not answered. She can do so at her leisure. But for her mysteriousness, she will be punshed with a spanking. (which she likes, and I know it's not a punishment, but what it IS would be me taking charge like an alpha instead of complaining that she's not following my rules, as the Old Me would have done as a beta)


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> All of the above is correct. Athol's book(s) offers *an* approach to deal with this, but there's a strong element that it's _THE_ approach, and that if it doesn't work, replace the disfunctional wife with someone it works on.
> 
> I still think the biggest problem is in some of the ways that the description of the approach puts people's backs up. There was a guy on the blog a week or two back who had run the MAP, but his wife had found and read the book and was so incensed by what she read she took it on herself to deliberately reverse-plan him and put a spoke in his wheel, just to prove she wasn't someone who could be manipulated. Now, you can say this is cutting off her nose to spite her face, but it shows how people will react to words they don't like!


I was not a big fan of the MAP. Most of it did not apply to me. I agree that a man has to try all he can and then may come to a divorce.

BUT this is the first point I see as a knock on this book. Indeed this is just a way. I think it is something a man must consider.

I don't see his book though to be any flawed in this respect than others.

But yes this is a good point.

So note to folks -- don't drink anyones Koolaid.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

*Dean* said:


> My feelings are mixed.
> 
> Never read the book but I find that many times I say to myself that I
> do some of these things in my marriage with the wife that
> ...


We have the same values.

Many people can interpret the same book in different ways. There was just nothing pro cheating in the book that I can recall.

If information can help a marriage then it is less likely it will fail period. It may only delay it.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Ok. I just need to stop and watch the following channels:

OWN

WE

LMN


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Sawney Beane said:


> If you're in a game of "maintaining alpha composure", I'd say you're overthinking it...


Well, you see, look at my previous response now. I have a behavior pattern that I need to change. Ultimately, I NEED to be overthinking this until it becomes natural for me to recognize and pass fitness tests.

See... everything I've been discussing in the various threads I've been discussing things today is kind of tying together in my mind.

My wife is not fully submissive to me sexually yet. She's allowed herself to be submissive in MANY ways now that I've started taking charge. Yesterday I texted her along the lines of "I'm coming home for lunch (her work from home day) so make me a sandwich, woman" and the sandwich was delicious.

In her mind, one of her biggest problems with the Old Me is the way I got angry when I didn't get my way sexually. When I was the Old Me, my perspective was that I only ever got sex when she wanted it and never when I wanted it - even if I wanted it because I thought she wanted it.

Since becoming the New Me, she has given me a fitness test to see if I had fixed this problem, and I failed.

But she's been awesome in every other way, and it makes me want to give her good sex... But since she doesn't trust me yet sexually enough to become submissive, it's frustrating my efforts... Probably causing performance anxiety and overwhelming the meds I'm taking for ED.

The text I sent her was along the lines of "here's how I want to pound you tonight (more detailed and appealing, but those details are for her) but only if you're ready to trust me." and I gave her an alternate of "If you're not ready to trust, let's just talk and do some light petting." 

I know it's not exactly what Athol says to do, but I am trying to tailor my offer to the fact that I have damage to repair before she'll be receptive to me.

She responded with "I don't know". Which leaves me wondering does she mean she doesn't know about the sex offer or she doesn't know which of the 2 choices... This is the confusion I have, and the silence that follows just leaves me frustrated along the lines of "how can you make a choice other than A or B, does C really mean B or that you still could mean A and you need to think"

Old Me would get upset, and I'd lose my shot at A.

Maybe she wants to see if I'll still act like Old Me - in fact I'm sure she wants to be convinced I won't act like Old Me before she'd choose A.

So in a way, the fitness test - if I can pass - is a good thing.

Time to go home from work and see if I can get my test graded.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

MMSL teaches a husband how to play the sex game back that society has taught women to exploit unwittingly. These women don't even know they're doing it most of the time, but by the time they MIGHT realize it it may be too late? Why wait? The man can fix it too.

Then, when the playing field is even, both parties can END the game. That is the point, not to continue it.

But a husband cannot end the game when he is constantly losing, made to feel sex is his guilty reward, and that his wife is the gatekeeper, the one cutting the slices of cake... He'll stand no chance this way... Slowly, he trades self-respect under the premise that he is giving up a lowly, primal, sex-hungry existence for a "hightened" life of abstinence and doing everything around the house for a princess who is usually unhappy herself because she has unwittingly ruined things as a result of societal programming.



It does not surprise me that women would complain about MMSL, claiming that this kind of thinking reduces the wife's role to "just" sex and removes "love" from the equation... THAT IS EXACTLY THE GAME THAT MMSL TEACHES YOU TO PLAY CORRECTLY AGAINST, make it even, and then make both spouses STOP PLAYING. Some women are so brainwashed into taking offense their husbands MAY HAVE MARRIED THEM TO SCREW THEM (I know right? How bizarre and degrading to women!) that they don't even know they've KILLED their marriage's sex life. Then the husbands, brainwashed themselves, torture themselves trying to please their wives thinking it will gain them a sex audience, instead making their real chances of sex PLUMMET. Then, the sex life of a marriage is degraded BY BOTH to the disappointment of the husband AND the wife, neither understanding why. They have both let each other down...

That's right, BOTH... MMSL works for WOMEN TOO... Many women, hd, with husbands, ld, have used it by taking the advice intended for the husband reader themselves... It's really not just for men!

Of course, I mentioned the women that would complain by being unwittingly the pawns of a dysfunctional agenda. They do not not know about themselves, how their body works, what a healthy sex life is, etc. My wive's friends are WELL into their thirties, and I've heard them say things like, "Can I get pregnant from anal sex?" or, "Screw my husband? No, he didn't buy me the dress I wanted," or, "A BJ? EEEwwwwwww! I don't have to do that anymore, maybe when we were dating!" Then I give my wife the LOOK, and then my enlightened wife tries to explain things to them that THEY WILL SADLY NEVER GET... This is what many husbands have to deal with, poor bastards!

BUT...

What about the women that DO know better? Women who are WELL aware of the game and LIKE it because they don't mind the servant in the house that buys them everything, does all the chores, etc. that they don't have to screw? MMSL would certainly end their sweet little deal, wouldn't it?

Athol compiles it all and tells us the things the media, the church, etc. don't want to, and it really is a group of things I've heard my whole life, albeit in different words, from my father and even my MOTHER, who would see how I was acting around a girlfriend and then she would tell me in Spanish, "Oye, estas como un comemierda! Espavilate que esta te va a comer vivo." Translation: "Wake up, you're like a sucker, and this girl will eat you alive for that." Oh I learned momma was right! But it was pretty much the same advice I got from her as what Athol Kay says! Spot on!

Catherine, I'm sorry, but many of your posts COMPLETELY validate the kind of pressure (Women aren't just sex objects, etc. Boo-hoo whatever) that has been at work to make many men feel guilty about their needs throughout recent history, especially. They also validate why Athol Kay gives the advice he does by REACTION, meaning that what some women don't like really isn't his advice, but it is instead THEMSELVES and their little games that they don't like... Just like an unethical gouger running a hardware store, ripping people off for plywood before a hurricane, might not like some guy standing in front of his store giving some plywood away for free to distressed homeowners, that is how most women's complaints about the site seem to be.

Some women out there by bashing him are actually promoting why we need him. You should all get cut of his book profits because you are the dysfunctional system he's teaching us to break down... To establish REAL love... Great job to all the women complaining about MMSL! You've helped men want to read it even more and wake the hell up by witnessing the problems the site addressed firsthand!

True romantic love, not parental or brotherly, means two people who can't keep their hands off of each other... It's the job of both, but sometimes one has to start/lead... Man OR woman, the site is good advice for the one that says, "Enough is enough" in the marriage.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

The most entertaining part of this thread are those that have not read the book yet can speak all about it. Amazing.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

Good point.

I should clarify, I've read some of the actual book but am infinitely more familiar with his blog, from where more than once he's noted what was going in the book since I've been reading his blog for YEARS... I hope people who are posting about Athol actually have some insight into what he believes and how important marriage is to him.

The title of this thread, at least, is MMSL, which refers to the blog, just in case someone hadn't noticed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> First browsing here I was really tempted to buy it for my husband...then I read the blog and changed my mind I had that visceral of a reaction towards certain postings.


I understand. I was mildly offended by the blog myself. I showed it to my wife and she was seriously offended.




FrenchFry said:


> So...the book is better, right?


The book is better. It contains explanations and prefatory remarks that take the edge off the 'sound bites' you encounter on the blog. It resonated with me because it confirmed several things I had to figure out the hard way long before the Internet, when Athol Kay was still a little boy.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

I remember my wife telling me this week when I hid the remote from her, "Wow, you're such a ****!" Then she tickled me until I gave it up. Then we watched TV.

If the casual format, some misspellings some curse words, are offensive to the reader, then maybe that reader should not be seeking for a satisfactory format of marriage advice on a free Internet blog.

I read his blog like a bar room discussion with my friends. Boy, do I welcome it personally. Those who are bothered are obviously looking for something a bit more professional. Reader beware.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

Bought the book.
Loved it and recommended it to others.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

French,
Athol's understanding of desire and arousal is exceptional. His suggested tone is sometimes too harsh as you have seen.

I do believe that a mostly beta, high drive spouse (male or female) ends up getting ground to powder in most marriages. They slowly and inadvertently bid of the value of sex until they are trading almost everything (including their self respect) for just about nothing. 

My wife and I both have this mental checklist we use. 
Mine works like this. If she is:
- Sad or anxious
- Very tired
- Radiating the "totally not in the mood" vibe
I don't express sexual desire, instead am just extra nice/helpful. If she is feeling guilty for not being "in the mood" I tease her and get her to relax and laugh. 

I live by my checklist and she never "hides behind it"/

Her checklist:
- Has it been more than 3-4 days - if so, I am going to initiate. If it has been a week I won't take no for an answer. 
- Did he initiate. If so, I either say "sure" or ask if I can rock his world tomorrow. And then I do. 

I absolutely believe many LD (men and women) spouses knowingly marry someone they aren't attracted to and then lie, manipulate and bully their HD partners until they have achieved nirvana - a completely one sided, parasitic relationship. Read all the posts on here by men whose wives completely shut down sex right after getting pregnant. 





FrenchFry said:


> For clarification, it wasn't the casual format, any mispelling or the cursing, it was the advice of calling a pregnant woman a b* for not putting out that put me off.
> 
> Glad to hear the book is better.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Interlocutor It is impossible for one set of people to be responsible for all of the ills that beset marriage. 

You can extoll the virtues of that blog. I am not surprised that it appeals to an angry unreasonable man like yourself. Women are cursed for having a mans child and not providing him with the all important orgasms that he is entitled to? 

How, in a universe that is inherently balanced in its order and symmetry is one gender made to serve another at all cost? How is it that a mans orgasms rises above compassion and empathy for the gender that needs his protection and self control to give rise to the next generation. Moreover, how does this blog support the notion that sex has anything to do with love in the minds of men? If anything it confirms the contention that all men think about is sex and are out of control sex maniacs. Sadly it confirms the feelings of women who think sex is for men and not important. 

Tell me again how this helps men? I can't see it. It seems to be a lot of venting by men who feel powerless and waste their time and energy telling women off. Did you ever read the Browning's poem Cliban upon Sedebos? Read it. This situation reminds me of that poem. It is sad impotent rant.


Can you imagine the childish entitled men reading that garbage blog and going to their wife in anger because she will not give up the goodies? This is not helping men resolve issues, it is storking the flames of male anger and making money out of it. Do you really think that the encouragement of attitudes like that will intice a woman to be loving? Any man influence by that hate filled thing, will be lucky to get a peck on the cheek if that. He gets what his gives his wife. He won't see that. .

I feel sorry for his wife. She cannot have any self esteem, dignity or self respect to be a satellite to such a flawed and and psychologically damaged man. He represents the bottom of the self help guru heap. His writing is 3rd rate his ideas are tiresome and his blog appeals to men who need help to rise out of a morass of hatred. Rather, he clothes himself in pied piper garb and leads men blinded by their bitterness to drown their sorrows in loathing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,
No one here is advocating 100 percent adherence to anyones "model" - Athol's included. You use the good, and ignore the bad. Calling your W names when she is pregnant - is just disgraceful. Calling your W names at any time is just - disgraceful. 

The men reading Athol's book are not selfishly looking to have more orgasms. If that was their goal they would get a pick up artist book and go have an affair. They want to feel LOVED, accepted and desired by their wives and for that to happen, their wives need to have sex with them. 

And they listened to Dr Phil and Oprah and things just GOT WORSE. So yes - Athol should realize that the harsh tone is not conducive to a loving marriage. And perhaps you should realize that most of the guys who bought that book are letting their wives jerk them around to a frightening degree. 

I think you know this but when reading anyones suggested tactics I ask myself a simple question. Would I be ok if my W did that to ME? If not, I don't do whatever it is. 





Catherine602 said:


> Interlocutor It is impossible for one set of people to be responsible for all of the ills that beset marriage.
> 
> You can extoll the virtues of that blog. I am not surprised that it appeals to an angry unreasonable man like yourself. Women are cursed for having a mans child and not providing him with the all important orgasms that he is entitled to?
> 
> ...


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> So, those of you who have read the book, are there as many turds in the punchbowl as there are in the blog?
> 
> This book is recommended a lot on the site with lots and lots of glowing recommendations. First browsing here I was really tempted to buy it for my husband...then I read the blog and changed my mind I had that visceral of a reaction towards certain postings.
> 
> ...


He has 2 books, MMSLP and "How to answer Do These Pants Make My Ass Look Fat?" and I bought both in that order, and I haven't really read his blog. The second book is pretty much, I believe, taken directly from the blog - it has a working table of contents on kindle so it was nice to be able to pick and choose which chapters to read, and a lot of the content was repeated from the first book but some was material that had been left out of the first book so it was interesting.


Based on the assumption the second book is more representative of the blog, I'd say the first book is more polished for presenting the content than the blog and you probably conclude it's better than the blog.

I didn't actually bother reading the post I think you're referring to since we're done with making babies and I have no expectation to need to figue anything out related to pregnancy again.

Having now read that post... with all due respect, that advice might very well have saved me a huge truckload of resentment. Our second child was a pregnancy that involved a viscous cycle of resentment and increasing distance between my wife and I. Would I have done exactly what Athol said and said "you're a ***** when you're pregnant" then walked out for a few hours? Probably not, I don't think I'd be that harsh, but reading the suggestion would have prompted me to change my approach dramatically.

The reader that posted the question sounded like he was in a place very similar to mine during my wife's second pregnancy, and the way he was asking to respond sounded like my own responses to the situation - and for YEARS my wife brought up all the resentment that I created, 5 years later she was still bringing it up as the starting point for the downward spiral that led to our near seperation. 

Think about it this way: for a husband to respond to a wife that is responding negatively to him during a pregnancy, wouldn't it be better for him to just express his frustration with her behavior and put some space between himself and her - as opposed to ranting and pleading and flying off the handle with anger?


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

I've never read the material, but it is quoted so often here that I feel like I have a handle on what it covers. As with anything, you can take what you alike, and ignore the rest. Maybe its because I was often accused of being an alpha type of person, but I have a different take on it than what has been covered so far. Hope you understand that I'm throwing this out with the hope that maybe it could possibly explain why this is such a contentious discussion.

Think about recent cultural movements that focus on self-actualization, and recognition of your own inner strength, and your right to be respected in a relationship. Not all women explored feminist principles because they wanted to take advantage of men. Very few did, in fact. It was a legitimate, needed movement. Many feminists were in good marriages, but even good marriages sometime include people who unwittingly abuse their own strengths in the marriage, and women were often the cultural victim. The subject has legitimacy.

There are no real legitimate discussions out there of how men who have their fair share of beta traits can find their own self-actualization, the recognition of their inner strength, and their right to be respected in a relationship. If men pursue this, there still isn't the same cultural legitimacy as you find in other subjects, but can anybody say that there are not men out there who try so hard to be good husbands that they unwittingly become taken advantage of? 

There is a big difference between a work that teaches a man about the natural strength he holds, and how it can build a relationship that is mutually engaging. A man can be taught self-actualization. Nowadays, men often try so hard not to be labelled by the legitimate accusations of being controlling, emotionally abusive, or unsupportive that some men actually retreat to the place where they have little sense of self-worth in the marriage. Whether this book fits the bill of addressing healthy self-actualization in a modern marriage is open to the reader, but there should be a legitimacy to the subject.

Not suggesting that this problem is an epidemic. Only suggesting that the subject can be one of many legitimate subjects in marriage, without it being labelled like many people labelled as a subject that teaches men how to take advantage of their wife.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> So, those of you who have read the book, are there as many turds in the punchbowl as there are in the blog?
> 
> This book is recommended a lot on the site with lots and lots of glowing recommendations. First browsing here I was really tempted to buy it for my husband...then I read the blog and changed my mind I had that visceral of a reaction towards certain postings.
> 
> ...


Yes, the book is better. It also gives context to the blog. With a blog one feels pressured to post often. So you get what you get. After reading the book I get humor out of some of the blog entries. The blog is hit and miss for me. And as the thread implies you do have t take this stuff with a grain of salt as with most blogs.

The thing is that MMSL hits things from a perspective that many find refresher and other may find offensive. That in itself does not make it right or wrong but it does mean it provides something uncommon IMO. 

You may want to read it yourself before you give it as a gift.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Can you imagine the childish entitled men reading that garbage blog and going to their wife in anger because she will not give up the goodies? This is not helping men resolve issues, it is storking the flames of male anger and making money out of it. Do you really think that the encouragement of attitudes like that will intice a woman to be loving? Any man influence by that hate filled thing, will be lucky to get a peck on the cheek if that. He gets what his gives his wife. He won't see that. .


Indeed.

The book itself was about a lot of things, but primarily it was about how to help a woman feel more sexual herself via the psychology of attraction.

Some of it might come accross as manipulative, but certainly no more so than perfume or sexy lingerei on a woman would affect a man 

It was about keeping fit, about eating right, about exercise, about good hygiene, about dressing well, about keeping up the house, about being a good provider. 

It was about being less passive, about being someone worthy of respect, about being someone who's fun to be with and exciting. 

Believe it or not, men aren't born knowing these things  Most men, in fact are woefully ignorant.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

*Dean* said:


> Read the entire blog last night along with a few write ups in the archive section.
> My review is only based on this and not from the books.
> 
> I completely understand why many woman take offensive.
> ...


The bolded sounds very familiar to me because that is something I have said myself about the whole Alpha thing. I think ideally a man can turn that on when appropriate but otherwise is more laid back. A more complete man. But having that ability is a good thing.

He claims to be in a female dominated field. He gave that up this past year I believe. He is a nurse.
I cannot relate at all to that.

I agree about the Bad Boy prospects. That they would be very challenged in life period. They might get by in a male dominated environment.


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## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

I have not read through _all_ of the posts here but I did catch the first few pages and then the last page. As a married man for almost 10 years with 3 kids and a VERY beta personality, I can say with absolute confidence that after beginning the MAP, the _general_ idea Athol is trying to convey is correct. Women have been taught they are something special, a delicate flower, a princess, and should be treated as such "just because". Men on the other hand are taught to treat women in this manner, and to regard the woman's feelings/happiness/mood over their own, "just because".

What happens over time is that the man continually tries to please the woman because that is what he has been taught they want. Women continue to expect the man to please them but after a time seem to grow bored and resentful toward the man for it. The man grows resentful for always having to "qualify" for her love or affection, rather than it being given freely. It's an "escalation" where the more you are treated a certain way, the more it takes for you to get the same out of it because you become desensitized to it. 

A good example is violence on TV and in movies. Back in the 80's and 90's, a certain level of violent, sex, and/or swearing would earn an "R" rating. Now days, that same type of content is easily "PG-13". All I have to do it watch trailers for any upcoming horror flick and both my wife and I comment after each one, "This is only 'PG-13'?". Maybe we're re-sensitized by all the Disney and Dreamworks movies we've had to watch over the last several years with small kids, but it's a valid point to me.

I found MMSL in December of 2011, and I have slowly been implementing the MAP as suggested there. I have started working out, and I am forcing more alpha behavior into my personality. It's tough because I am totally the "likes to please everybody" type, but I can tell a difference. One of our biggest problems _(outside the bedroom)_ has been the age old, "What do you want to do for dinner, tonight?" In the past I would employ full beta mode and say, "I don't know, what do you want?" This would start a converstation back and forth about what we wanted or didn't want, and eventually she would get angry with me and on many occaisions I have been hung up on because I would not make a decision. But I wasn't making a decision because I was trying to do what she wanted to make her happy. See how that went for me? Not well. 

Part of the problem is that I'm an hour away at work so on the drive home I'm not necessarily aware of what we have in the fridge, so it makes more sense just for her to pick something and fix it, otherwise I don't mind to figure out something when I get home.

Now things work differently. Either she will already have something picked out, or if she calls I will make a decision and she will typically go with it. No more hang ups, no more anger over something stupid, and it's a much better drive home for me.

The sex department is also seeing some benefit from application of alpha, although we still have a long way to go. Being forward with her via text, or in person, and NOT getting frazzled when she says no have greatly reduced her anger and my frustration with rejection. Plus I get into it more when I just tell her what I want her to do and she does it. I get a nice bump to my ego and she doesn't have to worry about calling the shots. Our frequency and variation of activities between now and a year ago _(and really all of our relationship)_ has gone up markedly. We do still have quite a ways to go, but slowly we are making progress.

The big areas I am still struggling with are directly talking to her about issues that are bothering me _(between us, usually money)_ and have more of an alpha presence outside of my home. But as Bill Murray in "What About Bob?" would say, "Baby steps."

I now regularly follow a number of threads all related to this subject. The primary ones are:
- The Red Pill Room
- I Will Never Say No in 2012
- Married Man Sex Life
- Average Married Guy Losing Beta for More Sex
- Marriage in the Bedroom
- Taking Back the Reins 
_(Has anyone noticed how many titles have "Married" or "Marriage" in them? That's important. These are all married people trying to establish that balance that allow happiness to grow. It is not a "power grab" or pushing all the responsibility onto one or the other. It's teamwork. It's uniting and working together towards common goals.)_

Really they are all pretty similar but since I tend not to be very creative at applying "theory" to practice, it is really nice for me to see different variations of the same theme to learn how to customize it to my situation.

Also of great interest is the "Never Say No" blog above. The woman running it basically has discovered for herself a lot of what the rest of the blogs talk about in relation to women and their sex drive, so it is nice to have some validation from the other side. She has also noted that her husband seems to be in a better mood overall. _(I'd bet that's because he is able to connect with his wife more often and there is less pressure, and less fear of rejection. I can tell you that rejection thing is a killer. After a while you would really just rather go to sleep than risk being rejected again.)_

Having said all this so far, please understand this is a _general_ representation of the group, and not everything applies to everyone at every time. As Captain Barbosa said, "They are more like guidelines than actual rules."

All said and done, here is the root of the issue: Leadership must be established. A chain of command must exist for the maximum potential benefit. A classroom full of kids with no teacher is chaos. A marriage where the wife is forced to be the leader all the time _(because you won't be) (and because you've been taught not to be)_ creates resentment and anger in both parties. It's like when a company fires someone and then assigns that role to another employee already peforming a function, and doesn't pay them any more money. 

Both the man and woman (or as applies to your own relationship) must lead in their own areas. If a situation arrises that you are better at handling, you take charge the captain the ship. If a situation arrises that plays to your wife's strengths, then she gets to go on the away mission. 

None of these blogs are saying that the woman should shut her mouth and do what she's told. They are saying that women are sick of having to be in charge all the time _(even though they are taught to think that's what they wanted)_ and want the men to take back some of the responsibility, but the women don't want to tell the men that because it might look bad on them. And also if they have to tell the man to take charge then he really isn't takng charge.

And so now after I have really stepped out there on behalf of the "manosphere", let me say one other thing that just kind of hit me, but is mostly unrelated to this particular thread. Ladies, do you know how you love for us fellas to rub your shoulders, play with your hair, rub your back, rub your feet, listen to you talk about your day, comfort you, hug you, etc.? All of that really nice stuff you enjoy is the same thing as oral sex for us. All of the comfort and support you feel when we do those things for you are what we feel when you do that one thing for us. _That's_ why we enjoy it. It connects us to you in a way that almost nothing else does. I have felt no greater sense of pride in being married to my wife then when she went down on me all the way to completion. I say "went" because it's only happened a single time in our 12 years together, and that has been in the last 6 months since running the MAP. I'm looking forward to the future... 

Thank you Athol.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

*Dean* said:


> Read the entire blog last night along with a few write ups in the archive section.
> My review is only based on this and not from the books.
> 
> I completely understand why many woman take offensive.
> ...


I agree this is a real weakness/issue in his blog. I did not see it nearly as much in his book. There, he really lays the foundation for what he is teaching and why. I think it partly stems from trying to convert the "nice guy" - getting that guy to try to be the bad boy will result in them getting to the happy middle ground. Without the context, the comments to get attention come off as insulting.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Maybe it is my motivation but I read the book to make my marriage better. Add more passion. For me it is about being the best lover, friend and husband. It is for our benefit. Maybe that makes all the difference.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Halien said:


> I've never read the material, but it is quoted so often here that I feel like I have a handle on what it covers. As with anything, you can take what you alike, and ignore the rest. Maybe its because I was often accused of being an alpha type of person, but I have a different take on it than what has been covered so far. Hope you understand that I'm throwing this out with the hope that maybe it could possibly explain why this is such a contentious discussion.
> 
> Think about recent cultural movements that focus on self-actualization, and recognition of your own inner strength, and your right to be respected in a relationship. Not all women explored feminist principles because they wanted to take advantage of men. Very few did, in fact. It was a legitimate, needed movement. Many feminists were in good marriages, but even good marriages sometime include people who unwittingly abuse their own strengths in the marriage, and women were often the cultural victim. The subject has legitimacy.
> 
> ...


Well said. This is absolutely take as well.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

> There is a big difference between a work that teaches a man about the natural strength he holds, and how it can build a relationship that is mutually engaging. A man can be taught self-actualization. Nowadays, men often try so hard not to be labelled by the legitimate accusations of being controlling, emotionally abusive, or unsupportive that some men actually retreat to the place where they have little sense of self-worth in the marriage. Whether this book fits the bill of addressing healthy self-actualization in a modern marriage is open to the reader, but there should be a legitimacy to the subject.


I agree with this 100%. I think pop-psych conventional wisdom has waged a war on masculinity, from as early as kindergarten. 

When so many young boys have to be drugged in order to conform to a classroom environment, isn't something wrong with the classroom? And when those same boys grow up, they have to be tamed and domesticated by the women in their lives until they become groveling, permission-asking, tragically unsexy man children.

In this sense I agree that Athol is doing us a service.. I just think overstates his case and is lacking in some other key areas. 

There are plenty of good books out there about the reclaiming of masculinity. 'Wild at Heart' and 'Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.' are two that come to mind. But guys who are just trying to get more bjs from their wives are less likely to read things like this than MMSL.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

nader said:


> I agree with this 100%. *I think pop-psych conventional wisdom has waged a war on masculinity, from as early as kindergarten. *
> 
> When so many young boys have to be drugged in order to conform to a classroom environment, isn't something wrong with the classroom? And when those same boys grow up, they have to be tamed and domesticated by the women in their lives until they become groveling, permission-asking, tragically unsexy man children.
> 
> ...


Excellent post. My daughter teaches 10th graders and she has remarked that she feels there is an over compensation to suppress young men. The repressing drug thing is rampant. This is a very complex topic in itself.

I am amazed by so many posts where guys seem to apologize for acting as a responsible man. There primary motivation is approval and not to be labeled as jealous, insecure or controlling. That is not a confident man who knows his values and boundaries.
Moreover he is not a man most women will be attracted to for very long. There is less than optimal balance here.

Today a man with self respect, honor, values and good boundaries is seen by many as "controlling". Amazing.

Most boys growing up do not get enough and the right kind of male guidance in general. 

So yeah lets put Athol's contribution here in its proper perspective.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrenchFry said:


> “You’re a ***** when you’re pregnant.” was what did it.
> 
> I'm pretty floored that that's supposed to be a valid suggestion to difficulties with a pregnant wife not wanting to have sex. I also realize that "you take what you need" out of it.
> 
> But due to that post, if I ever got a hint that this was the advice my husband was following, I'd leave. I'd leave if he called me a ***** while I was pregnant.


In Athol's defense, the woman in question was being a b!tch. She didn't just turn her husband down once or twice.

She had been distancing herself from her husband for 3 months. First, it was no sex. Then, it was no kissing. Then, it was no touching at all. Then, it was being irritable towards him. Then, she refused to tell him she loved him.

Now, I know I'm treading seriously thin ice here by suggested that pregnant women are actually capable of acting cordially toward their husbands. That's not a very politically correct attitude for me to have. But I can't help it. I think pregnant women have free will and can actually control themselves. If their husbands expect it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

PHT,
This is good context. It is also true that in my book "cursing at your wife" is the ultimate non-alpha behavior. It shows a total lack of self control which is the basis for ALL alpha behavior. 

And lets not get into the game of justifying his bad behavior by pointing to hers. There are way to many posts here that tell the male poster how he should tell his wife off with some version of: your behavior is P/A, it is bltchy, etc. That isn't enforcing boundaries, it is subjective interpretation of someone else's behavior. 

The man in question:
- Didn't address the "no sex" thing constructively
- Continued to overheat the relationship by pressing her to kiss him - when she didn't even want that
- Continued to raise the temperature to the point where she didn't want to be touched

After 3 months of the husband showing no self control - the answer is for him to call her a bltch? 

Getting aggressively angry at someone for "not loving you enough" is universally counterproductive. 





PHTlump said:


> In Athol's defense, the woman in question was being a b!tch. She didn't just turn her husband down once or twice.
> 
> She had been distancing herself from her husband for 3 months. First, it was no sex. Then, it was no kissing. Then, it was no touching at all. Then, it was being irritable towards him. Then, she refused to tell him she loved him.
> 
> Now, I know I'm treading seriously thin ice here by suggested that pregnant women are actually capable of acting cordially toward their husbands. That's not a very politically correct attitude for me to have. But I can't help it. I think pregnant women have free will and can actually control themselves. If their husbands expect it.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> PHT,
> This is good context. It is also true that in my book "cursing at your wife" is the ultimate non-alpha behavior. It shows a total lack of self control which is the basis for ALL alpha behavior.


I agree. Perhaps I just read a calmness into Athol's post that wasn't there. Or perhaps you're reading a lack of control that isn't there. To me, telling a woman that she's being a b!tch is basically the same as telling her that her behavior is inappropriate. I don't see it as an out-of-control, aggressive, or dangerous move.

Maybe I just have a higher tolerance for curse words.



MEM11363 said:


> The man in question:
> - Didn't address the "no sex" thing constructively
> - Continued to overheat the relationship by pressing her to kiss him - when she didn't even want that
> - Continued to raise the temperature to the point where she didn't want to be touched
> ...


I agree that the husband let it go too long. I think Athol's 2 weeks rule is a good guideline.

And I agree that his initial actions obviously weren't helpful.

However, I think the wife's behavior was worse. She wasn't just less attracted to him. She wasn't just low temp. She was rude. She was proactively, intentionally, rude to him. I'll grant that your spouse can just rub you wrong for a few days. In that case, limit your exposure. But the wife was rude for months.

I don't think the response to another adult being intentionally rude to you should ever be to ignore it, or to change your behavior to make the other person less angry with you. I think the proper response is to tell the other person that you've noticed how rude they've been, and you expect better behavior in the future.


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## Mr_brown (Oct 17, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> PHT,
> This is good context. It is also true that in my book "cursing at your wife" is the ultimate non-alpha behavior. It shows a total lack of self control which is the basis for ALL alpha behavior.
> 
> And lets not get into the game of justifying his bad behavior by pointing to hers. There are way to many posts here that tell the male poster how he should tell his wife off with some version of: your behavior is P/A, it is bltchy, etc. That isn't enforcing boundaries, it is subjective interpretation of someone else's behavior.
> ...


How should the husband have reacted? I'm sure he bent over backwards before it got to this point trying to do things her way... I know I've been there... And I called my wife b!tchy to her pregnant face and she woke up... It worked for me, I also know where the line is with my wife and that she would know I'm serious and she needed to step up. The passive ”oh baby don't you think your being hard on me?” would make her even tougher to deal with and give her more of a justification for treating me like a door matt or unpaid butler. But instead she opened her eyes and saw what she was doing to me and us because of my comment! 

I know my wife and I think that is what Athol is getting at knowing your wife and how she will react, sh!!t test her right back and see what you can get away with and what makes her tick. 

I have read the secret, hold on to your nuts, the five love languages, his needs her needs, what to expect when expecting, no more mr nice guy... and Athol's books. She responds more favorably to Athol's way!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM I know men are not looking for ogasms. I said that for effect, to make a point. I really think this blog and book is tainted. He has tight control of the content he means to be offensive. He is the peverbial one eyed man who is king among blind men. What kind of man talks cheap shots at pregnant women? That comment removes him from all credability in my book. He may have good things to say but, why get smelly wading through too much garbage. You can find similar better presented content from authors who are respectable, and qualified.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Why is it unacceptable to call a woman a ***** when she`s being a *****?

I`m not getting it?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

> I read one of blog posts where he basically said his wife is his personal f-toy, that's all he needs her for, she's replaceable and if she stopped he would drop her like an old hat. I got really disillusioned at this point. Some of this stuff is just incredibly offensive.


:rofl:

That's awesome. Not. Stop reading that garbage if you don't agree with it.


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> Exactly.
> 
> 
> The more I read about the book and who uses it, I can see why _as of right now_ it's not going to be helpful in my relationship. I absolutely understand where proponents who were overly "beta" are coming from for re-establishing a balance in their relationship. I'm also not a princess wife cutting off sex while demanding more and more in my relationship. I wanted wilder sex from my husband, I put on big girl pants and told him and he was just fine with me asking.
> ...


Ugh, yeah my ex husband groped my breasts when I had a very bad case of mastitis and I really wanted to punch him in the nuts, I almost did. Yeah, I was glad he loved my boobs and all, but dude, I had an infection and even having a nursing bra on made me cry.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

> I have read the secret, hold on to your nuts, the five love languages, his needs her needs, what to expect when expecting, no more mr nice guy... and Athol's books. She responds more favorably to Athol's way!


'what to expect' and 'the Secret' are hardly in the same category.
I've read Narnia too, and I'd definitely say Athol's advice is more applicable. :lol:


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

I've problably missed a great deal of this discussion - can't wade through 10 pages in the time that I have! 

Like anything, in MMSL there's good and there's bad. You have to sort out the wheat from the chaff, use what seems appropriate to you and your situation. 

If it doesn't appeal to you or doesn't appeal to your wife (not all women want to be a first officer or respond positively to shows of dominance  ), then try something else.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> MEM I know men are not looking for ogasms. *I said that for effect, to make a point.* I really think this blog and book is tainted. He has tight control of the content he means to be offensive. He is the peverbial one eyed man who is king among blind men. What kind of man talks cheap shots at pregnant women? That comment removes him from all credability in my book. He may have good things to say but, why get smelly wading through too much garbage. You can find similar better presented content from authors who are respectable, and qualified.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Consider that the over the top comments made in the book and the blog were also made for effect and to make a point. Does the fact that you did so taint all your points?

I would also suggest that you read about the context of the shot at the pregnant woman. While I don't believe in cursing at my wife, I did find the pregnant woman's behavior very poor.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

I think there is a major point that men may not understand about women, in general. Sex for us can be so amazing, heavenly, okay, whatever, painful, etc...
depending on so many things. See, as blunt as this will sound, we are being invaded. We just are. 

Most times, if in a great relationship we don't think of it that way, but if things aren't feeling right, it's an invasion on our very, very personal space & feels that way. It doesn't always feel good..I think to men, it usually does, so they just cannot always understand us.

My H the other night commented that he doesn't know how having his big c*** inside of me can feel good..lol.
If I'm primed mentally & physically, then it's INCREDIBLE. If not, it doesn't do much for me. If we are at an emotional disconnect, those same moves in bed aren't doing it.
If we are open to eachother & doing our BEST to appreciate eachother in many ways other than in the sack, it's glorious.
It's our mind-set, as we all know, and it should be a man's too. Otherwise, it can feel empty..

I spent 6 months making sure my H loved ME, for me & not just because he wanted me for sex. So we waited that long to do it.
(Most) girls are conditioned to honor themselves & make sure we don't give up the precious goods unless we are absolutely certain the guy appreciates us & is grateful for us.

That means he is appreciating the girl for WHO she is, not just for her t*** & a** & how good of a BJ she can deliver or how often she'll give it up or anything of the sort.
When women go nuts & start walking all over these men who say they tried this & it got them nowhere, it's because she's not appreciating you, right? At this point, I agree with pulling back a bit to recreate some balance. But we cannot just blame the women- if you're here on TAM, you probably know there is room for improvement on both ends.
I don't think it's always a game- people can just fall into a comfy place by default..& by their SO allowing it. But then things seems to get out of control.

At some point along the way, maybe the women wind up feeing unappreciated, for ex: when her man says, "well, I did this & this around the house, took care of the kids, listened to you, etc.." so she should at least give me sex... fair trade right?

Wrong.

'Doing' things 'for her' like that don't count in that way. I cook, clean, raise children, etc..it's all important, as is the man's contribution to the home & family, because those things need to be done & we are supposed to take care of them.
I'm doing them with no expectation for return..appreciation is good though
I appreciate my H very much for contributing in all the ways he can. But the minute we get the impression that the man's primary motivation for being a helpful, attentive man is getting laid, that sucks the passion right out for a woman. Right out. It's feels like a scam.

In fact what happens sometimes- women will do it less, as we know, to make sure her man is there for the right reasons, not just for her sex.
Soo, this whole Athol controversy, seems to hit some women in the gut- guiding (only unsuspecting) men to treat us like f*** toys, exactly what we DON'T want.
Granted, yes, I do see some slight benefits to his approach, but I see too many pot-holes to make it something to rely on. I worry about the d-bag that subscribes & begins thinking that he too should be getting laid every day dammit, it's what he deserves..or is it??

Because if we are all totally honest- the MAIN objective of Athol's writings are to get men laid more- period. (Being laid more is not at all a bad thing, IMO) 
Problem is it's not to create intimacy with your wife, not to bond with her, but to create fear in her, a gap between, have her wonder about why you are distant & then hopefully have her submit sexually to you. 
Even if it happens..under what pretenses? 
You're fooling her into wanting you- maybe that's cool with some. 
If I were a guy that truly cared for & loved my woman, I'd explore an alternate path..

I understand some women act cold & complacent & need to gain new perspective in treating their SO fairly, so it coerces a guy to do whatever it takes.
However, tread carefully with this stuff, remember two wrongs don't make a right.

I can say I am 100% aware that sex for men is equivalent to feeling our love. I see that & it makes perfect sense. For us to open up our world to you in that way is very, incredibly intimate & heavenly when it happens naturally without manipulation or feeling too contrived..it just sounds like such a mission from some here that I think the real formula is being over-looked.

We, as women, just need to feel & know that you want us, we ARE SPECIAL in many ways OTHER THAN looks & sexuality. 
Just as men would be terribly disappointed & turned off if they thought woman were on a constant mission to have you bring home the big bucks. 
It would give you the impression that we don't really care that it's YOU bringing home the bacon, as long as someone's doing it.
It just doesn't feel genuine. 

Appreciation, respect & emotional intimacy get into our hearts like love & can work magic.

Btw--there is a recent post on 'no emotional intimacy' here & if you read the comments, you'll see how lack of that one thing can kill a sex-life.
It's a BIGGIE, IMO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Why is it unacceptable to call a woman a ***** when she`s being a *****?
> 
> I`m not getting it?


Why do you have to call her anything? Can't people have emotions without being called a name? If she is truly a beyotch, then leave. I mean...what's the point? "Oh, I love you!" and then "Betch". Yea. I am not seein the love.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Oh and I gave up the goods on date 3 with Hubs :rofl: I didn't care if he loved me or what. I just wanted to have sex with him. He was sooo yummy! OMG! He still is


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## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

We could all take years and analyze every post Athol's ever made on his site about the good and bad qualities of it, and I do agree that calling ANY pregnant woman at b!tch might get you a swift kick to the groin, but aren't we just calling a spade a spade, here? I just went back and re-read Athol's entire post. Who is wrong in my opinion? Well, based on the information provided in the post, both the husband and wife. We know nothing of what the husband's actions have been leading up to this, and we don't know any of the backstory on the wife's pregnancy, so rather than analyze what we think they have done, let's just focus on the contents of the post itself.

First off, pregnant or not, if she's acting a certain way (no matter what that is), she's acting a certain way. Pregnancy gives a woman a _reason_ for acting a certain way, however it does not give her _permission_. I could choose to be d!ck at work because I didn't sleep well last night and I'm tired, but I bet I wouldn't like the outcome of that if my managers found out, nor would my internal customers. There is absolutely NO excuse to treat your partner with disrespect or neglect EVER. This goes for both sides. Athol was simply taking the short way around telling the wife that her behaviour was unnacceptable towards the husband. If you wouldn't treat your friends and family with less than a certain amount of respect, then it applies even more so to your spouse. She was basically denying him the most basic human affection a couple should have.

With that said, if he was not doing his job and neglecting her, then that's on him, but she should call him on it as Athol has suggested that he do her, not the passive-agressive silent treament bull.

My wife HATED being pregnent each time, even the one we planned. She was quite emotional through all three of our pregnancies and was sick, her back hurt, she had acid reflux, swelling, all the fun stuff, but she never once took it out on me. She also doesn't believe in women (generally, unless there's a medical issue) being all laid back and making everyone else do stuff for them. She actually would get mad at us (friends and family) if we tried to do something for her. She kept active, and never had any major problems. And yes, I did my share of massages and we also had a fair amount of sex all the way up into the 9th month for all of our pregnancies.

Anyway, the point here is that the contents of the post (and his other pregnancy-related posts) generally are that during a pregnancy you need to back off on the alpha and turn up the beta. What that DOESN'T mean is that you let her treat you like a doormat. That's how the majority of us "Betas" got to these forums in the first place. If she would have no problem calling you on your behavior, then that door should swing both ways. I am not trying to take away from the stress and strain and all the other stuff the goes along with being pregnant, because after three of them I have seen my wife go through quite a bit, but as the primary support person (if you are doing your job), you should be at the top of the "be nice to" list.

Bottom line, would I have called my wife a b!tch in this scenario based on Athol's advice? No, probably not. A kick in the groin is most unpleasant, especially when she has all that pregnant rage going for her. However I would have called her on her behavior and made sure she knew it was not appropriate, and if that did not have the desired affect, leaving for a while would have reinforced that I found her behavior unnacceptable.

And please understand something about Athol. His blog posts are meant to be read by "Beta" guys who need a shock to their system to jolt them out of their current mindset/complacency. He is not saying verbatim this is what you should do, he is giving you a kidney shot of advice to get you thinking about how your own behavior helped create the current situation. His entire blog is not merely about "getting laid", it's just one of the perks. He touts getting laid alot, but what guy in a great relationship getting laid alot wouldn't want everyone else to know? As I have said in an earlier post on this thread, what Athol advises are more like guidelines than actual rules, and not everything applies to everyone. If you don't like what the website says, please stop reading it. If you haven't read the entire post in question, then you cannot argue for or against it. To truly get a sense of what Athol does, you have to read more than a single post. The whole point is about making yourself the best version of you possible, and by doing that you spouse _should_ want to meet you in that effort, and great frequent sex is just a natural consequence of that action. I could keep explaining it over and over but I feel like I am rambling, so I will leave it at that. Thank you for going along for the ride with me.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

karma*girl said:


> Because if we are all totally honest- the MAIN objective of Athol's writings are to get men laid more- period. (Being laid more is not at all a bad thing, IMO)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You should read his book, because that is not his main objective.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Why do you have to call her anything? Can't people have emotions without being called a name? If she is truly a beyotch, then leave. I mean...what's the point? "Oh, I love you!" and then "Betch". Yea. I am not seein the love.


I`m unsure, I`ve never called my wife a ***** because she`s never been one (To me).

Having emotions and being a ***** are two entirely different things.

But I`ve had no problem in the past telling a *****y woman she was being a *****.
I`m occasionally an *******, I don`t mind being called out on it when it`s truth because ******* or not I know when I`m being one.

I don`t ever leave, why should I go away when someone else is being the *****?

I just think people are waaaay too sensitive about a lot of inconsequential stuff.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

His main objective is for a man to gain more self confidence & stand up for himself/ act more Alpha which is a great thing- however it is so that his wife will be more attracted to him, thus agree to sex more often, or so that he can attract someone new & have loads of sex with her. It is what it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Exactly.
> 
> To me, saying "you're a b* when you are pregnant," is flying off the handle to a degree where I'd be uncomfortable being pregnant around a man who would say such a thing, and there would need to be some hard work to get me to come back. YMMV.


Well, that's why I didn't use that language, I more genericly said express frustration. I don't know what words I'd use. 

Exactly the scenario that the reader Athol was responding to in that blog post is a situation that to this day is unresolved between my wife and I. I brought up the subject at lunch because she read some of this discussion and where she was enjoying the changes I've been making to my attitude, now she's starting to get uncomfortable with the changes.

So in this discussion we had, it took some resolve to get my temper under control. My wife started arguing against me as I was trying to insist that I have a right to have frustrated feelings. This is the crap that makes me, and very likely other men, feel like women are expecting us to be mindless robots.

Todays arguements were filled with accusations with no basis in what I said. 

I had to endure English, critical thinking, debate, and so forth throughout my entire educational career through public school and college, and one thing I've learned is that sometimes dramatization like using strong langauge isn't meant to be taken literally, it's there to grab attention. I wouldn't actively plan to use the B word in an arguement with my pregnant wife - maybe it'd slip out in a heated moment. But if it did, it might just break the tempo of escalation. Probably in a bad way, but that's also been a point that we've turned the arguement around and started making it constructive.

Athol isn't providing a step by step instruction manual to the reader who has the critical thinking skills to get his point and use it to shape his own personal approach.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

karma*girl said:


> His main objective is for a man to gain more self confidence & stand up for himself/ act more Alpha which is a great thing- however it is so that his wife will be more attracted to him, thus agree to sex more often, or so that he can attract someone new & have loads of sex with her. It is what it is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If it was only so simple. Between him & mem11363 (the resident sex gurus on TAM) they have answers for everyone. 

I should hit my wife down and explain to her that I earn the money, am the good husband/father/lover/partner and that she better start putting out at my desired level or I will start saying know to her emotional/financial needs and go to the gym and work on my muscles (mem11363's ****-erotic comments) so I can attract someone who will give me all the sex I want.... Or something like that...


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## Mr_brown (Oct 17, 2011)

nader said:


> 'what to expect' and 'the Secret' are hardly in the same category.
> I've read Narnia too, and I'd definitely say Athol's advice is more applicable. :lol:


I meant the love dare... Not the secret... I think they have similar covers?


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Why do you have to call her anything? Can't people have emotions without being called a name? If she is truly a beyotch, then leave. I mean...what's the point? "Oh, I love you!" and then "Betch". Yea. I am not seein the love.


Nah.. it's just the way some people work things out. I'm a southern guy and respond better to tact and diplomacy, but my wife, a New Yorker, can be extremely blunt, which means she also has a thick skin. I learned quickly that it's better to say something like, "you are NOT going to get s****y with me about this." than "honey, please don't say things like that to me, it is disrespectful and wounds my manly ego."

I've called her a b** she's called me an a**h****, we could do this and then have have great sex that night and cuddle afterwards. Sometimes. 

Not when she was pregnant though. That's crazy talk. I was super whipped, I mean nice, when she was pregnant. And we'll have to get more creative with the little guy around. I'm hoping that will actually help keep things a little more civil. I have an agenda to gradually shift the tone of our 'discussions' in this direction, but it's hard to break some habits.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

karma*girl said:


> His main objective is for a man to gain more self confidence & stand up for himself/ act more Alpha which is a great thing- however it is so that his wife will be more attracted to him, thus agree to sex more often, or so that he can attract someone new & have loads of sex with her. It is what it is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The main goal is to be a better man to improve the marriage. The sex is a side benefit (and appears to be a marketing tool to sell the book). Everything we do as humans is for selfish reasons (if nothing else to make us feel better about ourselves). This is no different.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

> I meant the love dare... Not the secret... I think they have similar covers?


I think maybe they do. We've looked at _Love Dare_ and also _Love and Respect._ There are solid principles there.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

karma*girl said:


> I think there is a major point that men may not understand about women, in general.....
> 
> ....when her man says, "well, I did this & this around the house, took care of the kids, listened to you, etc.." so she should at least give me sex... fair trade right?
> 
> Wrong.


Well that is typical male thinking, but it is in fact *exactly* the mindset the book attempts to educate men *out of*. 


Pairs of your comments were interesting and I'd like to juxtapose them: 



karma*girl said:


> ...but to create fear in her, a gap between, have her wonder about why you are distant...


and



karma*girl said:


> In fact what happens sometimes- women will do it less, as we know, to make sure her man is there for the right reasons, not just for her sex.


The tone of the first statement seems disapproving. You do realize that they are essentially the exact same thing? 





Another pair:



karma*girl said:


> Just as men would be terribly disappointed & turned off if they thought woman were on a constant mission to have you bring home the big bucks.


and:



karma*girl said:


> We, as women, just need to feel & know that you want us, we ARE SPECIAL in many ways OTHER THAN looks & sexuality.


I trust you can see the chicken and egg paradox here? 

How does a woman show a man that she's not simply interested in what he can provide in a way that he will understand? (Not in a way that she thinks he should understand - That's not the same thing)

The two ways that men and women respectively feel loved can easily form a nasty, viscous little cycle where neither the man or woman feels happy or loved. 

In order to break the cycle, one person has to give. Kay takes the position that it is the man who must break the cycle.

Maybe that's not fair, but it is pragmatic.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

karma*girl said:


> His main objective is for a man to gain more self confidence & stand up for himself/ act more Alpha which is a great thing- however it is so that his wife will be more attracted to him, thus agree to sex more often, or so that he can attract someone new & have loads of sex with her. It is what it is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Since for most men, sexual fullfillment is their #1 emotinal need I think this is a good thing. You are correct. He however is pro marriage. Many of us feel that passion is requirement in marriage. It is for me. But I want to have that with my wife.

But yes it boils down to this. I require that I am my wifes exclusive lover, others to me there is not marriage. It is not the only thing but it is a requirement baring any act of God kinda thing like an illness.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> The main goal is to be a better man to improve the marriage. The sex is a side benefit (and appears to be a marketing tool to sell the book). Everything we do as humans is for selfish reasons (if nothing else to make us feel better about ourselves). This is no different.


I do not feel guilty if I can pleasure my wife. Yes I do feel better about myself and my wife. I do not see this as purely selfish but yes that is part of it. I mean if needed to I would throw myself in front of something that would hurt my wife. I can say that I often do things I would not do because I love my wife. I do them without a quid pro quo. But that said in an overall relationship we are looking to be loved back so there you go.

The love you take is equal to the love you make ....


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

ocotillo- my point was to express a random woman's POV & to lend some insight into why women can seem so difficult sometimes. 
If we begin discussing how the imbalance in a relationship 'started' it will revert to a 'he said, 'she said' argument which will go in circles & resolve nothing. 
I stated that, at this point, both parties have improving to do, so my focus was on how to truly attract her heart.. 
Why not re-post the the main points of my post..like appreciating your woman for who she is first, then sexual relations have space to resume naturally, etc..
It's true- someone needs to start the change somehow- if Athol encourages men to take the initiative, then great!
But beyond that, men should focus on getting closer to their woman...that doesn't effectively happen when you're consciously & simultaneously creating distance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

karma*girl said:


> But beyond that, men should focus on getting closer to their woman...that doesn't effectively happen when you're consciously & simultaneously creating distance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually, that is not true. Sometimes, in an effort to get closer, you can smother the other person, causing them to pull away. Getting a little distance can be very helpful for both people.

You really do need to actually read the book.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> The main goal is to be a better man to improve the marriage. The sex is a side benefit (and appears to be a marketing tool to sell the book). Everything we do as humans is for selfish reasons (if nothing else to make us feel better about ourselves). This is no different.


At the end of the day, before the books, before making money / marketing, it was called Married Man's _*SEX LIFE*_, not (e.g.) Married Man's Introspective Journey to a Superior Potato Patch.

It's called that for a reason. Let's not call a spade a you-know-what, eh?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> If it was only so simple. Between him & mem11363 (the resident sex gurus on TAM) they have answers for everyone.


I've read MMSL. My views are on record here. MEM and Athol K aren't in the same league. Athol K's work is like a high school course book, whereas MEM is a degree-level text.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Karma,
If I had a W who consciously chose to have LESS sex with me, to reassure her (insecure) little self that I am with her for the right reasons, we would be done so fast the only sound she would hear is the soft click of the door to the garage as I closed it behind me on the way to a divorce attorney. 

Hey - I have an idea. Maybe I will quit my demanding corporate job and take a giant pay cut, see if she still treats me exactly the same. That way I will KNOW that money isn't a factor to her. The fact it will cause her a lot of distress is not my problem. I deserve to be able to jerk her around just to prove she isn't with me just so she can slide her deft little fingers into my wallet. 




ocotillo said:


> Well that is typical male thinking, but it is in fact *exactly* the mindset the book attempts to educate men *out of*. Pairs of your comments were interesting and I'd like to juxtapose them: and The tone of the first statement seems disapproving. You do realize that they are essentially the exact same thing? Another pair: and: I trust you can see the chicken and egg paradox here? How does a woman show a man that she's not simply interested in what he can provide in a way that he will understand? (Not in a way that she thinks he should understand - That's not the same thing) The two ways that men and women respectively feel loved can easily form a nasty, viscous little cycle where neither the man or woman feels happy or loved. In order to break the cycle, one person has to give. Kay takes the position that it is the man who must break the cycle. Maybe that's not fair, but it is pragmatic.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> At the end of the day, before the books, before making money / marketing, it was called Married Man's _*SEX LIFE*_, not (e.g.) Married Man's Introspective Journey to a Superior Potato Patch.
> 
> It's called that for a reason. Let's not call a spade a you-know-what, eh?


Because of course every book and blog title is completely upfront about what it is communicating, and no one ever uses bold and controversial langauge for effect, to make a point, or to get noticed. In that world, I would concede your point. In the real world ...


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Because of course every book and blog title is completely upfront about what it is communicating, and no one ever uses bold and controversial langauge for effect, to make a point, or to get noticed. In that world, I would concede your point. In the real world ...


Point taken, but let's not be obtuse: it's all about getting laid. The improvement is a tool to do that. Banging on about it being all about being the best men is letting the tail wag the dog. The premise is "Get laid by being the best man you can, whether by your wife or her replacement", not vice-versa.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sawney,
I just want to know something. How come it is perfectly ok for a woman to:
Put a lot of time, effort and money into looking good and even looking a bit directly sexual (a bit shorter skirts, etc.), which in turn produces a heightened sexual response from the men she is around?

We consider THAT normal female behavior. At least everyone I know does. Not saying the women who do that - are not selective or monogamous. Simply saying they are behaving in a way that produces a very specific reaction. 

But when a MAN decides he wants to do the same thing, to produce a desirable, mutually beneficial response from his LD wife, suddenly he is a shallow pig. Why is that? 

WHY is wanting a create more desire in an LD partner wrong? Seriously. 




Tall Average Guy said:


> Because of course every book and blog title is completely upfront about what it is communicating, and no one ever uses bold and controversial langauge for effect, to make a point, or to get noticed. In that world, I would concede your point. In the real world ...


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

Edit: Double post


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

karma*girl said:


> I think there is a major point that men may not understand about women, in general. Sex for us can be so amazing, heavenly, okay, whatever, painful, etc...
> depending on so many things. See, as blunt as this will sound, we are being invaded. We just are.
> 
> Most times, if in a great relationship we don't think of it that way, but if things aren't feeling right, it's an invasion on our very, very personal space & feels that way. It doesn't always feel good..I think to men, it usually does, so they just cannot always understand us.
> ...


And this is where 90% of the people in this thread are missing the point. Married Man Sex Life is about improving yourself to be the man she needs for comfort, security, attraction and love in order to create a sexual, loving ENVIRONMENT. It's not just about "getting pùssy." If it's done properly, the wife's attraction and love increases. No one is being abused or taken advantage of.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> Point taken, but let's not be obtuse: it's all about getting laid. The improvement is a tool to do that. Banging on about it being all about being the best men is letting the tail wag the dog. The premise is "Get laid by being the best man you can, whether by your wife or her replacement", not vice-versa.


Only if you want to ignore everything else. For a whole lot of men (me included), sex with their wife is incredibly important for the marriage. When the sex fades, they feel their marriage slipping away and don't know how to deal with it. 

Yes, the MMSL uses sex to draw them in then hits on the overall change (just like a diet book may advertise the six pack abs, then goes into overall fitness and nutrition). Reading it, many men see that their wanting sex is not just about getting their rocks off, but about a bond with their wife.

So if you assume that wanting sex with your wife is a bad thing, then I whole heartedly agree that the MMSL is an awful concept. But if you are oaky with that, then I suggest that arguing that the whole book is tainted is throwing out the baby with the bath water.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Hmm...have any of the critics in this thread actually read MMSL?

Hands please?

I only ask because I hear a lot of arguing against strawmen but not much valid criticism.

It leads me to believe those knocking down the strawmen haven`t actually read the book.


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

tacoma said:


> Hmm...have any of the critics in this thread actually read MMSL?
> 
> Hands please?
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly. It's like they don't have n opinion, their opinion has them. Instead of knowing the information to argue it, they argue how something makes them feel without basing it on anything concrete.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrenchFry said:


> To me, saying "you're a b* when you are pregnant," is flying off the handle to a degree where I'd be uncomfortable being pregnant around a man who would say such a thing, and there would need to be some hard work to get me to come back. YMMV.


I'm curious to know what it is about pregnancy that renders many women so mentally enfeebled that they are unable to hear harsh language. I'm not an expert on pregnancy, but I am unaware of whatever this mechanism is that converts strong, independent women into quivering sacks of flesh.

However, in the interest of being helpful, I seriously suggest to these women who become deathly afraid of swear words while they are pregnant that they should spend their pregnancies locked away in the highest room of the tallest tower of some far away kingdom surrounded by moats and briars and impenetrable woods and unscalable walls. Because the real world is just too harsh and terrifying for these pregnant women.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Hmm...have any of the critics in this thread actually read MMSL?
> 
> Hands please?
> 
> ...


No.... But read enough of mem11363 and others extolling the virtues to have a good enough idea......


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

karma*girl said:


> ocotillo- my point was to express a random woman's POV & to lend some insight into why women can seem so difficult sometimes.
> If we begin discussing how the imbalance in a relationship 'started' it will revert to a 'he said, 'she said' argument which will go in circles & resolve nothing.


Exactly! --Which is why I said that 'one person has to give.' Pragmatically speaking, the person who has to give is the person who wants the change in the first place. As far as Kay's target demographic is concerned, that is the sexually frustrated man. 




karma*girl said:


> Why not re-post the the main points of my post..like appreciating your woman for who she is first, then sexual relations have space to resume naturally, etc..


I certainly don't disagree with those observations. They were spot on. 

But the man who has wrung his hands and racked his brains and laid awake at night over why his wife is no longer attracted to him to the point where he's going out and buying self-help books usually realizes the truthfulness of what you've said already. Even if he doesn't, that's one of the first things any book on the subject will tell him. (Including the book in question here.) 

Unfortunately, there is more to the psychology of attraction than that. You can connect with your wife emotionally and she can still find you about as sexually interesting as an ice-cold, unsweetened bowl of lumpy oatmeal.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

karma*girl said:


> I spent 6 months making sure my H loved ME, for me & not just because he wanted me for sex. So we waited that long to do it.
> (Most) girls are conditioned to honor themselves & make sure we don't give up the precious goods unless we are absolutely certain the guy appreciates us & is grateful for us.


Good for you. You are correct that many girls give up the goods way too early. It's impossible for a women to extract any level of commitment from a man within the first few weeks of dating.



karma*girl said:


> At some point along the way, maybe the women wind up feeing unappreciated, for ex: when her man says, "well, I did this & this around the house, took care of the kids, listened to you, etc.." so she should at least give me sex... fair trade right?
> 
> Wrong.


Ironically, it's usually the women who are proposing the sex for favors deals. Most husbands have heard the, "I would be in the mood for sex more often if I just didn't have so much on my plate," speech that wives use to justify quitting their jobs, or getting housekeepers, or having the husband take on the wife's chores. And you're correct that it doesn't work.



karma*girl said:


> I appreciate my H very much for contributing in all the ways he can. But the minute we get the impression that the man's primary motivation for being a helpful, attentive man is getting laid, that sucks the passion right out for a woman. Right out. It's feels like a scam.


You have to be careful here. The fact is that sex is a primary emotional need for men. One of the primary reasons that men get married is to have a long-term sex partner. If that is a scam, then marriage is a scam.



karma*girl said:


> Soo, this whole Athol controversy, seems to hit some women in the gut- guiding (only unsuspecting) men to treat us like f*** toys, exactly what we DON'T want.


Athol's general advice is for men to treat their wives the way their wives need to be treated. To provide the things that will build both attraction and comfort in the marriage.



karma*girl said:


> Problem is it's not to create intimacy with your wife, not to bond with her, but to create fear in her, a gap between, have her wonder about why you are distant & then hopefully have her submit sexually to you.
> Even if it happens..under what pretenses?


Athol preaches oxytocin pair-bonding quite often. It's half of his strategy. As for destabilizing the relationship, he wouldn't suggest it if it didn't work.

Try a thought experiment. Do you want your husband to be very attractive to yourself and other women? Or would you prefer him to be unattractive to other women, and therefore much less attractive to you, as well? Most women would want their husband to be in demand. A perfect 10. However, if your husband is in demand, then you know that, if you treat him shabbily, he can easily replace you with another women who may be younger, more attractive, and nicer to him.

So, in this case, you get what you want (a husband who is attractive to you and other women), and your husband gets what he wants (you treat him nicely to keep him happy and faithful).

There's nothing fake, or underhanded, or manipulative, or contrived about that approach. It's natural. It's biological. And it's effective.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

Women don't just say hey, I'm not having sex with my hubby for the hell of it.
Obviously, something goes on between the two that eventually makes it a lower priority for her & news flash: it doesn't always have to do with her husband. 
Sometimes unfortunately it's out of his power.
When my hubs is stressed bad, nothing I do can help him get hard or feel up to it.
That's life.

Pulling the insecure card though means zilch here.
Women are conditioned to learn that men want us mainly for sex..even in adulthood, we know it...of course in a wonderful, committed relationship, we are valued for many, many other reasons..we know this too.
But to insist on being appreciated beyond our sexuality is not insecurity, it's standing up for our personal rights & asking to be valued.

FYI- I am a woman who is HD most of the time- I get the importance of a sexual relationship..I Need it too.
The beauty of it is that my husband doesn't obsess, therefore it's a natural occurrence. 
I suppose that's the point most men are working towards & rightfully so. 

As far as my closeness comment, I did not mean physically or in a smothering emotional way- I understand that too much of that will surely dampen attraction, from either side.
It isn't that you should try being overly-sweet & unfairly accommodating to your women, but maybe consider letting them into YOUR minds & hearts & being vulnerable for her.
That builds the emotional intimacy some woman want/need to open up to a man. It always goes both ways. 
Some men have done this & ....nothing. I'm sorry for that. It must be ridiculously frustrating.

I still maintain that if my sex-life was low on my priority list, then on top of that my hubby started pulling away, I would call his bluff & pull away further- but that's just me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

karma*girl said:


> Women don't just say hey, I'm not having sex with my hubby for the hell of it.
> Obviously, something goes on between the two that eventually makes it a lower priority for her & news flash: it doesn't always have to do with her husband.
> Sometimes unfortunately it's out of his power.
> When my hubs is stressed bad, nothing I do can help him get hard or feel up to it.
> That's life.


You are correct that most women don't withhold sex for any sadistic reasons. That doesn't mean women are justified for withholding sex.

And I imagine that, if you husband is not in the mood for sex, then he doesn't blame you for withholding sex. That's not what we're talking about in this thread.



karma*girl said:


> Pulling the insecure card though means zilch here.
> Women are conditioned to learn that men want us mainly for sex..even in adulthood, we know it...of course in a wonderful, committed relationship, we are valued for many, many other reasons..we know this too.
> But to insist on being appreciated beyond our sexuality is not insecurity, it's standing up for our personal rights & asking to be valued.


It's good that women understand men's sexual motivations. And you're correct that husbands value their wives for reasons beyond sex. However, the time for evaluating your husband's commitment and appreciation of you for reasons other than sex is when you are dating. Once you are married, you have agreed to have sex with him. It's cruel for a wife to announce random spot checks where she will be ignoring a primary emotional need of her husband's by withholding sex to verify that he married her for the reasons she thinks he should have married her. That's no different than MEM's example of a man quitting his job to verify that his wife isn't a gold-digger.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

Again- it goes back & forth..
I'm not advocating that either point is more valid than the other- just trying to shed light on the female psyche..of course not representative of all.
That POV, cannot be argued. 
Withholding sex is wrong, obsessing over sex, wrong also.
Sex in marriage is magical when approached properly- these points keep coming up as if I think otherwise.
Sex is necessary in marriage! Yes, I know this. Thank you, moving on...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

karma*girl said:


> ...obsessing over sex, wrong also.



--Not deliberately trying to be pedantic here, but that's simply cruel. 

If you were to quit eating entirely; food would be all you could think about in three days or less. I guarantee it. After about a week, you would probably begin to hallucinate about it as well.

Is that obsession? It depends on your viewpoint. One person's obsession is another persons' important need.

I went a week without food once. I went a year and a half without sex in an otherwise amicable relationship. If I had to pick one of the episodes to repeat again, I'd pick the former. It was easier and over more quickly.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Karma,
> If I had a W who consciously chose to have LESS sex with me, to reassure her (insecure) little self that I am with her for the right reasons, we would be done so fast the only sound she would hear is the soft click of the door to the garage as I closed it behind me on the way to a divorce attorney.
> 
> *Hey - I have an idea. Maybe I will quit my demanding corporate job and take a giant pay cut, see if she still treats me exactly the same. That way I will KNOW that money isn't a factor to her. The fact it will cause her a lot of distress is not my problem. I deserve to be able to jerk her around just to prove she isn't with me just so she can slide her deft little fingers into my wallet.*


I love you mem11363 and what you write and the honesty with which you hammer your convictions to the "adoring" masses on TAM.

What you said above begs to question whether your wife puts up with you, your proclamations, your fitness tests and demands for sex as nothing more the a monetary transaction. 

Mem11363 is the only person on TAM honest enough to tell us his wife doesn't reach "rapture" yet tries to justify and rationalize to us that that is okay.

He laughs and ridicules those of us with not the same "satisfying sex lives" who at least claim their spouse gets off 90%+ of the time as just fooling ourselves and that our spouse's are humouring us and want a real man.

Mem11363 I bolded above that you have brought sex between Husband & Wife to its basest level.... A monetary transaction that keeps the peace......


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> Correct me if I'm off base here guys.


You're exactly right. The book is targeted at a limited demographic.

--Decent men who find themselves in clinically sexless marriages for reasons that neither partner understands or can explain.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

FrenchFry, You're right on- It's difficult to understand from a good man's POV & from a good woman's POV.
I like how ocotillo said that these reasons are reasons that neither side understands.. It just doesn't make sense. Offering an average woman's perspective I thought would be helpful, you know for men to know what it's like coming from this side.. I still feel like my points have been vastly glossed over. That's okay though. 
I am not in their situation & sincerely hope these troubled marriages find a healthy, positive balance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

KG 

Do you understand that the Old Me used to do massive amounts of work in reponse to my wife's requests, especially when she asked the impossible, and instead of her being impressed, she lost respect for me because I was letting her be the one taking charge?

This then led to her losing respect for me, this reduced her sexual attraction to me. This sexually frustrated me. My begging further reduced her sexual attraction to me, furthering my frusatration and so forth until she was beyond not having respect, she had a strong urge to get away from me.

The claim that an expectation of sexual reward for performing tasks results in rejection is how the female psyche works... It's a RATIONALIZATION. The real fact is the woman who would respond to a command from a man she had a strong sexual attraction would do nothing for someone she wasn't attracted to. 

She may feel gratitude for the acts of service, and thus feel guilt about telling him she doesn't want sex with him because she is not attracted to him - and that drives her to make an excuse to not have sex with him that doesn't reveal her lack of attraction.

A woman who was sexually attracted to her man might even start dropping hints of her attraction in appreciation for the same action that the situation without attraction set the rationalization hampster in motion.

THAT is the explanation of the female psyche that Athol provides.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

I'm sorry you're in that situation WillK- that sucks, no doubt. I am not here to deny that to any of these guys here.
But Athol, thinking he is an expert on women, is irritating- he's no expert. I am proof.
The things he proposes are silly to me, but if it works for you, great. It may work on some women.

Noone seems to care about the underlying truth of the matter or maybe noone here is ready/able to see it.
So much is focused on only the man's needs- which are equally important to the woman's. We all can agree to that. Men love to please their women, we know this.. many women love it, many sadly take advantage of it. Guys focused too much on their women at one point- fine, the woman pulled away, weird..but something went on in her head that made her not feel close to him.
No emotional closeness, sex will suffer.
So, I figured I should expand on the mind of a woman & why she might think the way she does & suggest a new path to take. 
Noone wants to hear it. Only want to hear what you are ready for & that's fine.
Just know not all women will care much about this that & the other thing that you're doing per Athol's method, if she does not already have an emotional connection to you, (or if that connection is damaged.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

Ps> don't think that because you did loads of wonderful things for your wife, that THAT is the reason she disrespects you & doesn't want sex- 
Guaranteed there is more to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Ahh... wow. This is a surprise thread.

My experiences on TAM have played a major role in shaping my thought and ensuring that what I advise is practical and possible to do.

Back in 2009 and 2010 I was repeatedly encouraged by TAM readers to write a book covering what I was saying on TAM. So MMSL is in no small part an off shoot of what I read and learned here. If I come across as paranoid about cheating, that's something I learned here. Cheating is horrible is it not.

To a large extent I haven't been able to stay up to date with TAM as my MMSL reader email grows and grows and it's obviously turning a profit for me now.

I am both very appreciative at the support TAM readers have given me, and it's still a giddy feeling seeing my book mentioned in TAM posts after all the times I mentioned other peoples books in mine.

As MMSL matures, I forsee a continuing casual friendship between MMSL and TAM. I have consciously choosen not to start a forum of my own and directed people here many times because of that.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I may be wrong but most relationship experts would advise against couples cursing each other out. 

However, i may have gotten thiis alpha male stuff confused. This guy with the prenant wife that he cursed he is an examole of an alpha male? He says what he wants with no fear of the consequences? What is he supposed to have accomplished? If his goal was to have his wife respect and show him love - i doubt if it worked. I wouod guess, knowing human nature, that she did not speak to him or show him love for a good long while. 

What happened to effective communication?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Giddy 

Mature

Well knock me over with a feather. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

karma*girl said:


> No emotional closeness, sex will suffer.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think the target audience is men who have done nothing BUT attempt to improve emotional closeness...

I think you're just missing what the MMSL "defenders" are saying. It's NOT about avoiding emotional closeness, or deingrating your wife. It's not about bargaining for sex. 

I don't even think it's about getting wives to stop "witholding" - as witholding entails that only one party is interested in what's being withheld. 

It's about making sex NOT be something that ANYONE even wants to withhold. 

It's about making yourself the kind of person that your wife wants to have sex with.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

SoWhat- I gotchya. What I'm learning is that the definition of emotional closeness to men & women, might just be two very different things.
THIS is exactly what people are missing & THAT is part of the root problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Have,
I do have strong views on how partners should treat each other in areas of the marriage where there is a large power imbalance. The link to my original post on this topic is below. For convenience I pasted the post itself below the link. 

You are full of mischief tonight. I hope your wife lies with you sometime soon. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/politics-religion/43519-marriage-oppression-question.html

This was a thread about how spouses sometimes exploit power imbalances and in doing so, oppress their partner. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
*I LOVE this topic. That said my categorization may not map very well to yours. *

If I break it into simple stuff:
- Financial power: Extremely one sided in my favor
- Sexual power: Extremely one sided in her favor
- Physical power: Extremely one sided in my favor
- Interpersonal power: Well balanced - feels 50/50

In the areas of balance, we are unfiltered with each other and not "careful". In areas where the dynamic is heavily skewed, paradox rules apply. 

The person with the power adopts a "love through service" posture. On money stuff, I always went out of my way to make sure she felt supported and loved when it had anything to do with buying stuff. I could sense her anxiety about it not being "her" money. This was simply situational because I earned most/all the money. And she felt that way desite me always repeated the same mantra: "I couldn't not do what I do without your incredible support. Every dollar WE earn is OUR dollar. Thank you for supporting me so I can work the types of jobs I do". The end result is however good. She feels free to do what she needs to, and with my encouragement she feels comfortable doing the occassional splurge - like a home renovation thing. When there was the occassional hiccup I was very careful. I would never make her feel bad about a few hundred dollars, or if it were spilt milk a few thousand. The power dynamic is too skewed, it would feel abusive - bullying.

Sexually the same is true in reverse. My drive/need is much higher. I DO have situational anxiety about it. She is exceptionally kind, loving and uses a very soft touch when we have a disconnect. She is keenly aware of how much power she has in the bedroom and does not abuse it.

In terms of physical strength - because of the disparity - she is allowed to be as aggressive as she wants. When she gets the itch to be playfully violent she is quite comfortable punching me in the arm - hard. Same place repeatedly if she can pull it off. I would never, ever punch her under any circumstances. That said this often morphs into some type of wrestling match which is some type of "lite" foreplay to her. Fine by me. 

For lack of a better term, the person in power is gentle and respectful in that area of the relationship. This is not condecension, it is love. 







Havesomethingtosay said:


> I love you mem11363 and what you write and the honesty with which you hammer your convictions to the "adoring" masses on TAM.
> 
> What you said above begs to question whether your wife puts up with you, your proclamations, your fitness tests and demands for sex as nothing more the a monetary transaction.
> 
> ...


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

karma*girl said:


> Ps> don't think that because you did loads of wonderful things for your wife, that THAT is the reason she disrespects you & doesn't want sex-
> Guaranteed there is more to it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is an oversimplification, but other readers and yourself gave exactly the more in-depth version. The examples are abundant.

My wife gets tired early, and often she would say no to sex because she's too tired. I try to take the kids to the park to play so they aren't wearing her out. I take on all the dishwashing. I do these things in response to having asked her why she's so tired.

She says I hate living in Indiana so far away from family. I take a buy-out at work and move us into my parents house in Michigan, which my parents are moving out of and will allow us to live in and all we have to do is pay the property taxes. 

When we get there, my mom drags her feet moving out - irritating my wife, leading my wife to want us to get a house of our own. Having been through a foreclosure 3 years prior and a short sale on the Indiana home, mortgage qualification ain't happenning. I find a house we can buy cheap on land contract - which is fantastic because we'll pay it off and own it free and clear in 4 years 5 months, and we're mortgageless homeowners who will have paid off all other debts by then as well... But it needs work.

Starting with a roof. I tear off the roof, do structural work along the way and reshingle the house by myself over the course of 3 weeks. We can now move in, which I do by myself.

But the plumbing backs up. I replace it by myself.

With the most immediate work behind us I start scaling back to just working on house projects on the weekend. At this point, the sex life is okay - nothing to cause alarm. I understand I had just asked a lot of her by going through huge projects with little time for us to be together, and I understand her need for me to be around so I am. But she starts taking on things where she's out of the house - volunteering with the Salvation Army and marathons with her mom. As many as 3 weekends consecutively I have the kids without her, and it takes away my project time. Gratitude from her? nope, it's my job.

And it builds itself over the next couple years until the point I came here.


Here's another little tidbit that fits with Athol's points. I've gained a little weight over the course of our marriage. We did some video recording of our intimacy, I've loved watching her but really don't like it when I see myself. She's still had desire for me, never complained and always insisted she's not shallow like that.

I never gave it a thought that I was unattractive to her because she did still have sex with me. But hey, I'm open to her criticism and I think she understands that now. I asked her about it today - I believe and she confirms that as a value she doesn't want to be shallow and has felt disinclined to say anything out of her anticipation of guilt that it would hurt my feelings. I'm fat and it interferes with her being attracted to me.

Oh sure, when I suddenly started taking charge, she had enough euphoria to overcome that for a little while. She's backsliding because I'm a lower sex rank, and I shouldn't expect to get the same sexual attraction from her I did when we first were married until I do something about my extra weight.

My point is - I honestly don't trust a woman to be the best person to explain a woman's psyche just because she's a woman. With all due respect, I think you women have a hard time distinguishing your true feelings from your own rationalizations. It becomes obvious what's true and what's rationalization when you try to do what a woman says and it doesn't produce the result she said it would.

The funny thing about this is women won't feel like you listen to them if you do what they say, but they will feel like you listen to them if you tell them how it's going to be, and then you watch their body language to see if they respond positively or negatively, and then make your choice whether to proceed based on that response.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

mse12 said:


> What I do need however is to get away from this thread before I say something and get myself completely banned from the forum all together.


Oh, I know, because "real" men also have a serious lack of control.

I almost forgot.



I`ll have to re-read that chapter.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

mse12 said:


> It's a shame that you all need a book to learn how to become "a man." If only you had a father who wasn't a joke, perhaps you could have all grown up to be real men. I guess that's why I had never heard of this book or its author. I was simply too busy being a true man. A man that loves my wife more than myself. A man that provides and protects. A man that can teach my son how to grow up and be nothing like you. You know as well as I know that you will never be a real man. This is why natrual selection has allowed so many animal species to survive for so long. If you were a wolf or any number of animals your blood lines would have all ended decades ago.


Well if I was a wolf I'd lack the opposable thumbs necessary to reroof my house and do all the other beta male things I've done to turn a $25k house into a $75k house by spending $15k in materials. I might've had the alpha beaten out of me without realizing it, but I do have enough to offer that I managed to keep my wife around for 11 years.

As for my dad, viewing things as framed in MMSL I think he was pretty alpha. Being able to teach a son is kind of beta. And the climate in the '80's when I was going through puberty, not to mention my social rank from being somewhat brainy with no fashion sense - well, it made me what I am. So if you want to jump to conclusions about the manliness I'm capable of, you'd be like a lot of the clowns I grew up with in high school, but name-calling does not a man make (but if it does, that's the kind of man that I would safely say I am better than)


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

I would not try to rationalize anything here- I'm anonymous- so it doesn't matter. I'm a straight-shooter.. (which is probably why my marriage is working.)
I'm coming straight from the heart- knowing the way a woman may feel. Maybe this is precisely the problem- you do not trust a woman & her true feelings enough to take them seriously.
I'm a crazy lady who can't even tell what I'm thinking or feeling because I'm all caught up in those unreliable emotions, rationalizing everything.
Is that right? Excuse my attitude, but seriously. Why would I make up a single thing here?
If you think women are difficult to get through to, examine yourself first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Hmm...have any of the critics in this thread actually read MMSL?
> 
> Hands please?
> 
> ...


I can't speak for everyone, but YES, I've read it, I understand it perfectly, I agree with a good portion of it, but not all of it.

He is not dispensing professional advice, and does not claim to have such qualifications, per the disclaimer at the beginning. A huge percentage of his advice is purely anecdotal; he's happily married and is attempting to reverse-engineer his success. For fun and profit.

I'm still maintaining that a grain of salt is necessary; but please don't assume that just because some of us aren't drinking all the Kool-Aid, we must not understand it. The bottom line is that so much of it feels like an emotional/biological chess match, and ultimately I want something deeper.

Women are complicated, and they won't always respond to the same game plan. I *know* that not all this stuff will work on my wife. Some of it will. 

I am still enjoying the discussion.

Athol, if you're still reading:
Thank you for dropping in; it's good to know that you read this stuff and take it into consideration. I may have been a tad harsh in the OP. I still look at your blog and I appreciate what you're doing.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

Yea, thanks nader! U started it! 
Seriously, I identified with exactly what you were saying at the beginning- some of it is somewhat useful, but it needs to strike a deeper chord in order to genuinely reach any strong, intelligent woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

I will say in Athol's defense . . . rough sex is awesome.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

karma*girl said:


> I would not try to rationalize anything here- I'm anonymous- so it doesn't matter. I'm a straight-shooter.. (which is probably why my marriage is working.)
> I'm coming straight from the heart- knowing the way a woman may feel. Maybe this is precisely the problem- you do not trust a woman & her true feelings enough to take them seriously.
> I'm a crazy lady who can't even tell what I'm thinking or feeling because I'm all caught up in those unreliable emotions, rationalizing everything.
> Is that right? Excuse my attitude, but seriously. Why would I make up a single thing here?
> ...


Okay. How would you answer the question from your husband "What do I need to do to have sex with you?"


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

nader said:


> Athol, if you're still reading:
> Thank you for dropping in; it's good to know that you read this stuff and take it into consideration. I may have been a tad harsh in the OP. I still look at your blog and I appreciate what you're doing.


It's no problem. You're talking about my stuff and it all helps.

I had a blog devote a post to how I was running a scam and giving the worst advice in the world because of the way I teach men to work tirelessly to try and please women like the pathetic chump that I am...

...sales _tripled _for that day.

I suspect someone from TAM left the most scathing review of my book on Amazon and it sells more copies for me than anything I could say without sounding like a snake oil salesman.

Don't worry too much about what other people think.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

Show me I'm special, don't go overboard, I dont want to be spoiled ..call me out if I'm acting b*****y, then ask why I am acting like this & ask what u can do, if anything to help. 
Control your wandering eyes, make porn unimportant to you.
Show genuine interest in me- ask me about me- tell me about you. Wth are you thinking all the time? Fill me in, let me in on your most private, difficult thoughts & feelings- let me show you that you can trust me. 
Say you appreciate the woman I am & follow up on that. Take care of your stuff without me feeling like I need to ask you first- noone wants to keep asking, (nagging.)
Protect me from the exploitation of women in the world or at least identify with me when things get rough.
Touch me with love, care, not just lust.
When you are genuinely like this, no strings attached, I'll want to F your brains out & I won't be able to get enough.
I know this because I live this...I know there's more but I'm tired.
Again, that's just me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Athol,
Glad your book is doing so well. Not surprised at all. Out of all the folks who write about this stuff, your explanation of the sexual dynamic between men and women maps by far the closest to all my direct experiences and my observation of patterns from reading here. 

My wife, who is a genuinely decent person from head to toe, arrived "out of the box" fully equipped to employ her God given physical traits in a powerful way. She knew how to relate to me - sexually - in an incredibly powerful manner. After I read your stuff, i felt like we were on a level playing field. 

FYI: the model/framework is great, my personal execution of it excludes profanity/angry aggressive outbursts. 
IME: if humor fails, escalation 1 is a calm but firm: "the next time x happens, you will get a far better result if you do y". If the bad pattern repeats which is rare, "in what universe is (what you just did) comparable to y? Accented by tone as needed. And reInforced by a temporary but rapid drop in warmth from me to her?




UOTE=Atholk;790240]It's no problem. You're talking about my stuff and it all helps.

I had a blog devote a post to how I was running a scam and giving the worst advice in the world because of the way I teach men to work tirelessly to try and please women like the pathetic chump that I am...

...sales _tripled _for that day.

I suspect someone from TAM left the most scathing review of my book on Amazon and it sells more copies for me than anything I could say without sounding like a snake oil salesman.

Don't worry too much about what other people think.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

mse12 said:


> It's a shame that you all need a book to learn how to become "a man." If only you had a father who wasn't a joke, perhaps you could have all grown up to be real men. I guess that's why I had never heard of this book or its author. I was simply too busy being a true man. A man that loves my wife more than myself. A man that provides and protects. A man that can teach my son how to grow up and be nothing like you. You know as well as I know that you will never be a real man. This is why natrual selection has allowed so many animal species to survive for so long. If you were a wolf or any number of animals your blood lines would have all ended decades ago.


Ok, what about the guys who didnt have a REAL father, someone to teach them to be man, what would you suggest?
I said it before, the book or any other thing we are trying is a tool, wheter it be the right tool or not, we are trying, and continue to try to find the right tool/way to get there..the guy who doesnt try to me is not a man. You got to walk before you can run.

We want the connection with our wives, trying to be the best us possible, showing our strenghts and weakness along the way, sharing our deepest fears and joys, hopes and dreams, wanting to know yours, to share those...with you...if thats not being emotional vulnerable...I have no clue what is...

WTH would you do, if your wife cant tell/show you what she needs, she honeslty dosent know...what do you do?


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## Mr_brown (Oct 17, 2011)

So it's been 14 pages and still no one can figure out how to have a sexually fulfilling marriage... it's a work in progress... Take the tools that are available and make the best of it. Seems like all of the guys here care and love their wives, all of our wives are different and it takes multiple angles for our love language to be met! We are good nice guys we wouldn't be here if we weren't. 

1. Look for advice
2. Implement it
3. Check results
4. Results good stick with plan, not good go to step one

It's that simple, all of you bashers maybe you are different, good we all are. Maybe your upset because your SO isn't researching anything. Maybe your just here to help. That's all Athol is trying to do and in my opinion it's something that has worked for me. Projects at the house have been completed, I've been spending more time with my kids, dating my wife and taking charge of my family. I've had positive results and I hope I don't have to call my wife b!tchy ever again!!


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

karma*girl said:


> Show me I'm special, don't go overboard, I dont want to be spoiled ..call me out if I'm acting b*****y, then ask why I am acting like this & ask what u can do, if anything to help.
> Control your wandering eyes, make porn unimportant to you.
> Show genuine interest in me- ask me about me- tell me about you. Wth are you thinking all the time? Fill me in, let me in on your most private, difficult thoughts & feelings- let me show you that you can trust me.
> Say you appreciate the woman I am & follow up on that. Take care of your stuff without me feeling like I need to ask you first- noone wants to keep asking, (nagging.)
> ...



A for effort, but whith all due respect I think you make my point without realizing it. 

That's a long list of conditions, many of them requiring a subjective opinion on your part and some completely unrealistic. (For one of the most obvious examples: Controlling wandering eyes? If you believe that can be controlled, you're allowing yourself to be mislead. A man can control his choice to act or not act on attraction to other women. Expecting him to control his attraction is absurd.)

Here's my next question: Do you find your husband is as attractive to you or more attractive to you than you are to him?

What if that was not the case. What if he was more attracted to you than you are attracted to him? Specifically, in that scenario, would you tell him point blank that you can not have sex with him as much as he wants because you don't find him attractive enough? Or would you seek out an "explanation" to offer him of where he did not meet his standards as listed below.

If you want straight shooting, ask the question of a man. His answer will be simple. "Turn me on and ask me."


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

karma*girl said:


> I'm coming straight from the heart- knowing the way a woman may feel. Maybe this is precisely the problem- you do not trust a woman & her true feelings enough to take them seriously.
> I'm a crazy lady who can't even tell what I'm thinking or feeling because I'm all caught up in those unreliable emotions, rationalizing everything.
> Is that right? Excuse my attitude, but seriously. Why would I make up a single thing here?
> If you think women are difficult to get through to, examine yourself first.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is not what we are saying, or at least what I am saying. It is not necessarily that women are these fragile emotional beings that can't reason out what they want (although I am sure some like this exist). Rather, they are people, with all the faults, delusions, programming, hurts and insecurities that come with it. And people, as a whole, say one thing then do something different all the time. It is the human condition. 

With that being said, there are some generalities that seem to apply to more women than not. Those generalities, when you understand them, can often provide help to a man in understanding his wife and keeping up the attraction.* 

One that helped me involved fixing things around the house. In most ways, I am the exact opposite of my wife's father. I work a white collar job and am not exactly handy, while he built houses for a living. My wife has always said that it did not matter that we needed to bring someone in to fix stuff. Yet it really does. My attractiveness really goes up after I have spent an afternoon putting in a new light fixture or installing a new sink. She is on me that evening after I do those things. So while intellectually she knows it does not matter, in her gut she associates a man with being able to do those things. For her, that is an attractive quality.

With respect to sex, she intellectually knows that having it with her husband is acceptable. Yet her mother drilled into her head that sex was bad and good girls don't do it. The problem is that she really likes it. She loves what we do and will let me take her almost any where I am willing to lead. When we get into it, she becomes very aggressive, yet in the cold light of day, she will blush at the subject. She has only recently acknowledge this. Me leading and taking my cues based on her actions, rather than her words, as helped us immensely. Reading the MMSL provided me with a much better understanding of why I was getting that mixed message and ideas on what to try.

There is a lot good material in the MMSL, but you are absolutely correct that it will not work for everyone. But just as correct is the idea that just because it would not work on you does not make it junk. You are no more representative of women than the hypothetical women in the book.

* I would also add that there are likely general principles that apply to men in some of the same ways.


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

You know what this is? It's a situation of men being asked to edit themselves. If we met up in person and talked about women or our wives, we wouldn't need things to be phrased in a softer way. If a dude exaggerated, we'd be able to put it in context and say "Maybe I won't call my wife a b*tch, but I get his POINT."

The only way women are going to understand us is if we stop editing ourselves and making excuses. We have these women bragging about their "dear hubbies"and later finding out if they were with the fellas, he'd be talking just the way Athol shoots straight in his blog. I understand why a woman might be taken aback but some of the way things are phrased, but as you see, with most guys a lightbulb goes off because he's speaking our language.

Stop editing yourselves fellas. We feel what we feel, and it's normal.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

it depends on your wife too. some are more thick-skinned than others. 

calling wife #1 a ***** could be *completely different* than calling wife#2 a *****.


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

nader said:


> it depends on your wife too. some are more thick-skinned than others.
> 
> calling wife #1 a ***** could be *completely different* than calling wife#2 a *****.


No doubt. Some women are fine with it and throw the word b*tch around to describe herself or others when they're being unreasonable. My wife hates the word and isn't one of those women, so it wouldn't work for me.

But by that same token, I can still see the merit in what Athol is saying and separate feelings from his logic in order to get the message and apply it to MY situation.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> I may be wrong but most relationship experts would advise against couples cursing each other out.
> 
> However, i may have gotten thiis alpha male stuff confused. This guy with the prenant wife that he cursed he is an examole of an alpha male? He says what he wants with no fear of the consequences? What is he supposed to have accomplished? If his goal was to have his wife respect and show him love - i doubt if it worked. I wouod guess, knowing human nature, that she did not speak to him or show him love for a good long while.
> 
> ...


You're still missing the point.

The wife in the original post was abusing her husband for months on end. The situation had deteriorated beyond courtesy. An alpha male stands up for himself. He doesn't let his wife walk all over him. If his wife is being a b!tch, he tells her.

I'm not advocating that men should call their wives names after every disagreement. I'm simply saying that if a wife abuses her husband for months at a time, he's justified in using some harsh language.

When his wife decides to treat him like a human being, rather than a rented mule, I'm confident that the husband's manners will return.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Sawney,
> I just want to know something. How come it is perfectly ok for a woman to:
> Put a lot of time, effort and money into looking good and even looking a bit directly sexual (a bit shorter skirts, etc.), which in turn produces a heightened sexual response from the men she is around?
> 
> ...


It isn't the what, it's the _how it's pitched_, I think, that causes the problem / disconnect. Anything pitched around the premise of "do this because your partner's too gormless to be able to resist", by either sex, can (and does, it seems) set alarm bells ringing. 



> WHY is wanting a create more desire in an LD partner wrong? Seriously.


This is different, IMO. Because the LD partner most of the time isn't (if the evidence here is to be believed) the remotest bit interested in having more desire. Therefore it feels like it's something done _to_ them, in spite of their wishes, rather than for them or done together.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> You're still missing the point.
> 
> The wife in the original post was abusing her husband for months on end. The situation had deteriorated beyond courtesy. An alpha male stands up for himself. He doesn't let his wife walk all over him. If his wife is being a b!tch, he tells her.
> 
> ...


I'll admit that I've missed a lot of the posts in this thread because I've been off board for awhile so I'm not overly familiar with the name-calling incident ... but in my estimation, a true 'alpha' male knows when his wife is needing emotional support in a potentially precarious situation and can distinguish the difference between that and knowing when she's venting and potentially spewing some nonsense or testing him.

Even so, in the cases of venting/spewing, he doesn't need to resort to using foul language and name calling - because doing so may very well go against the emotional support his wife is truly needing - and it pulls him down into the same level of negativity that the wife may be stewing in. Not good.

A true 'alpha' doesn't wait for someone to treat him decently in order for he himself to act decently. He acts decently and confidently and calmly and competently EVEN WHEN (maybe ESPECIALLY WHEN) someone else may not be treating him decently. Note that this doesn't mean he is letting someone run roughshod over him, rather he is maintaining and exemplifying the very behaviour that he is expecting of his mate. That can be a very difficult thing to do, but it shows REAL LEADERSHIP and COMPETENCY and CONTROL ... and all of those things are the very things that an emotionally fraught pregnant lady may need.

At least, that's the kind of a man I would attach the label 'alpha' to...and I'm not very big on labels.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> I'll admit that I've missed a lot of the posts in this thread because I've been off board for awhile so I'm not overly familiar with the name-calling incident ... but in my estimation, a true 'alpha' male knows when his wife is needing emotional support in a potentially precarious situation and can distinguish the difference between that and knowing when she's venting and potentially spewing some nonsense or testing him.
> 
> Even so, in the cases of venting/spewing, he doesn't need to resort to using foul language and name calling - because doing so may very well go against the emotional support his wife is truly needing - and it pulls him down into the same level of negativity that the wife may be stewing in. Not good.
> 
> ...



Sorry but this entire post is more "princess building".

It`s bull****.

The man should just continue to take as much crap as his wife can dish out and continue to be the supportive henpecked ***** that she`ll never gain an ounce of respect for.

If my wifes being a ***** she`s going to hear it.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Sorry but this entire post is more "princess building".
> 
> It`s bull****.
> 
> ...


I could not disagree more. Enchantment did not say that a husband should take crap from his wife. She said that he should assess the situation, and determine what sort of response is required--thoughtful emotional support, or firm, calm insistence that he not be spoken to disrespectfully.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> I'll admit that I've missed a lot of the posts in this thread because I've been off board for awhile so I'm not overly familiar with the name-calling incident ... but in my estimation, a true 'alpha' male knows when his wife is needing emotional support in a potentially precarious situation and can distinguish the difference between that and knowing when she's venting and potentially spewing some nonsense or testing him.


The b!tch incident is a blog post on Athol's blog where a reader wrote him looking for advice. This man's wife was pregnant. And since his wife had been pregnant, 13 weeks in total, she had refused sex, refused to kiss him, refused to touch him, was rude to him, and refused to tell him she loved him. The reader asked for advice on a beta conversation centered around how they could better communicate, what he could do for her, and what she wanted of him. Athol advised the man to say, "You're a b!tch when you're pregnant," and leave the house for a few hours.

So it wasn't a case of testing, or venting. It had gone on for months. And it wasn't a case of needing support. It was a case of a woman ceaselessly attacking the man she supposedly loves for three straight months. And some of the women on this board believe that that doesn't give her husband the right to be surly with her.



Enchantment said:


> A true 'alpha' doesn't wait for someone to treat him decently in order for he himself to act decently. He acts decently and confidently and calmly and competently EVEN WHEN (maybe ESPECIALLY WHEN) someone else may not be treating him decently. Note that this doesn't mean he is letting someone run roughshod over him, rather he is maintaining and exemplifying the very behaviour that he is expecting of his mate. That can be a very difficult thing to do, but it shows REAL LEADERSHIP and COMPETENCY and CONTROL ... and all of those things are the very things that an emotionally fraught pregnant lady may need.


I agree that an alpha stays centered and on an even keel. I don't agree that an alpha can't use off-color language to make a point. But that is irrelevant. The husband in question wasn't an alpha. He was a doormat for the 3 months of his wife's pregnancy. And, truth be told, probably for years before that.

So the advice for the husband to get in his time machine, go back to 3 months ago, and calmly call his wife out after her first outburst toward him is not helpful. He's in a deep hole and he needs to get out.

I also reject the common belief that pregnant women somehow devolve into incompetent, incapable, sub-humans for the duration of their pregnancy. I will acknowledge the real, but very rare occurrence of hormonal-induced psychosis during and after pregnancy. And I will acknowledge that pregnant women can naturally be more, or less, emotional during the pregnancy. But I don't believe that husbands should be expected to transform themselves into butlers who are afraid to utter an unkind word to their pregnant masters for 9 months.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

I love this conversation, I really do. I have so much respect for you guys & it's good to hear what you are thinking... it's exhausting  but I am very open to all of what is being said.
And I am not bashing at all- just wanting everyone to be aware that Athol, although yes, he has some good, helpful ideas, they are wrapped in chauvinistic ribbon to make it look nice &...attractive to a man who otherwise was unintentionally being a pushover.

...a line from him in the blog- although not verbatim- "...it's good because I get to make my wife obey me.." -.- That's just lame. In jest or not, why bother going there? 
I (& hopefully your wives) are way too mature for such shenanigans...most importantly, I pray that the men reading it are higher than that.
Anyways, those are the things that drop his credibility. It's just not smart to go from 'nice-guy' to a*hole in one swoop- a middle ground is definitely where it's at, right?
That's what I've learned you guys get out of this & that's cool. 

In regard to my list of random things my hubby would need to do in order for me to be interested in sex-(I knew I'd be drilled on it..) those were all separate things, not needed to be done in conjunction, that raise my desire.. & there are loads of other triggers too. But that would be next to impossible for someone to always be meeting all this criteria. I just meant, for example, if a hot mama walks by & he glances & let's that be that & moves on, I love that..thats sexy to me. Some friends of mine complain about their husband's double or triple takes & that's a major turn-off..just an example.
For us, it's an intangible combo of just being attentive, respectful, fun, joyful, loving, touchy..etc...we just have chemistry.

If I had to evaluate our attractiveness, I can confidently say we are both pretty attractive. 
We argue & b**** eachother out sometimes too- we are far from perfect.

How does all this help you- it doesn't directly-other than to say, I guess I truly DO NOT understand when people don't just say what they mean, or ask for what they need/want. Games require too much effort. When women/men themselves don't even consciously know what they need- that's tough! They most likely need extra help to figure themselves out because we all know that if we aren't satisfied with ourselves, being satisfied in a relationship & satisfying someone else, isn't happening.
But honestly, I have no problem admitting that yep, after all the things said here, I guess I am no help because I'm not LD, (although I know LD women & have heard their venting..)
so I'm going to do some investigating- I enjoy some good research..

It would be interesting to join another site, (not hit up our ladies lounge, because there aren't many LD women on TAM in general..) but another forum where it's predominantly LD women who are talking. I am seriously interested in why they are that way..after talking to you guys, I have some tools to ask honest questions.

I personally know plenty of reasons why becoming LD can happen, but I want to get into details.
If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to report back. Women are obviously so different so certain things can only apply certain places- but you husbands know your wives to a decent degree, so you'll know when a chord is struck or not.

In the meantime, I'll probably be starting another thread about how to raise my son so women don't eat him alive...no pun intended
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

I agree that pregnancy does not give a woman the right to be emotionally abusive to anyone. If this husband has been tolerating disrespectful behavior from his wife, he needs to have a serious discussion with her about boundaries, and he needs to stop doing too much for her.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> I could not disagree more. Enchantment did not say that a husband should take crap from his wife.


That`s exactly what she said.

the woman in question had been abusive to the guy for months and all he said was "You`re a ***** when you`re pregnant" and he`s in the wrong?
Screw that, the woman was a being a *****.

All Enchantments post does is reinforce the stereotype that women can get away with all kinds of abuse because of their emotions.

The poor widdle girl has no control over herself so she gets a pass for the rest of her life.

While...the man in question of course isn`t allowed to exhibit an iota of emotional response however slight he`s to keep that **** bottled up and pushed down so he can continue to validate his wife's unacceptable behavior.




> She said that he should assess the situation, and determine what sort of response is required--thoughtful emotional support, or firm, calm insistence that he not be spoken to disrespectfully.


He did that, and he did it well.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

Enchantment;791101[/QUOTE said:


> j
> I think there's a fine line between not getting your panties in a wad and taking crap from your wife.
> 
> For the the trick is to subtly let her know that I'm choosing not to react, instead of escalating a situation that shouldn't be escalated.
> ...


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

karma*girl said:


> In the meantime, I'll probably be starting another thread about how to raise my son so women don't eat him alive...no pun intended
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You don't need an entire new thread for that, I'll tell you the answer. When he gets old enough to start dating, hand him MMSL 

Seriously I think my life would have taken a different path with relationships if I knew long ago what I know now from having read it.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

> When he gets old enough to start dating, hand him MMSL.


or better yet, make sure he has men in his life he can look up to and talk to about these things; preferably his dad.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

Enchantment- I read your above post & see exactly what you're saying..it's consistent with being a solid leader.
No princess crap here- it's about maintaining ones cool in an otherwise hostile environment- so much more to it, but it's true- don't succumb to the lower character's pressure.
So tough to do, but make a massive impression when it's managed! 
Ex: when my daughter is flipping out, I stay calm & in control in hopes of reeling her back into composure. When I show love in these situations, on top of my controlled reprimanding, she comes out of her funk so much faster..she has less reason to be defensive.
It's so hard--If I fly off the handle too, I am no better than she- her respect for me is lowered.
She may deserve to be *****ed out, lol, but it gets us nowhere other than a quick release of my anger followed by my guilt & then lengthens her tantrum. Not productive.
That's just an analogy- not saying we are children here, but for the sake of your point, its a solid, true point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

Yes, his father- he is the perfect, most beautiful example. I hope he picks up on everything his father does & becomes a good, happy man.
I am a no nonsense kind of woman, so I would feel comfortable telling him myself, what I know..girls are the devil, lol! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

Yes. I think refusing to get upset is a subtle kind of dominance, like the one who maintains their composure gets to set the tone, and "wins."


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

That's exactly how it is. Usually because in an argument, the calm one is one who's right! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

karma*girl said:


> That's exactly how it is. Usually because in an argument, the calm one is one who's right!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So apparently all those betrayed spouses who fly off the handle on D-day were in the wrong.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

Note the word *usually*
It's okay, I see what you're saying- in those cases, of course not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Sorry but this entire post is more "princess building".
> 
> It`s bull****.
> 
> ...


You have missed the entire point of my post. Go back and read again. 

The point is that being the one IN CONTROL of yourself and your emotions during a potentially emotionally fraught time IS what makes you an alpha...not giving in to the emotionally charged anger and frustration that you feel, but keeping your head about you and being a LEADER is what makes you an alpha.

Grovelling, deferring, or allowing bad behaviour are not alpha characteristics ... and those are completely the opposite of the traits I was talking about in my post.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

nader said:


> or better yet, make sure he has men in his life he can look up to and talk to about these things; preferably his dad.


Well, you see, I know my son. He's like me. My dad was probably a pretty good role model. I probably am now. I can do a lot of positive redirecting with my son because I think the way he thinks and I relate my childhood to his.

This book would have worked better than any example or talk for me as a teenager.

But yeah maybe that's not everyone, just me and my son in particular.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

I think that you being a good dad & role-model will be the most poignant example for your son- reading material may boost his knowledge, but what he learns from you will be his default setting & the most natural way of his being.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

karma*girl said:


> I think that you being a good dad & role-model will be the most poignant example for your son- reading material may boost his knowledge, but what he learns from you will be his default setting & the most natural way of his being.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't take that for granted. We have a touch of autism. Maybe aspberger's. Picking up social cues is not something that comes naturally for either of us.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> You're still missing the point.
> 
> The wife in the original post was abusing her husband for months on end. The situation had deteriorated beyond courtesy. An alpha male stands up for himself. He doesn't let his wife walk all over him. If his wife is being a b!tch, he tells her.
> 
> ...


I think you don't get it PH. 

What you said above is interesting. "When his wife decides to treat him like a human being, rather than a rented mule, I'm confident that the husband's manners will return". I'll add - When her husband decides to treat her like a human being, rather than a dog in need of training, I'm confident that the wife's manners will return. So they both can behave this way. Why do you think that the things advised in this book for men will not evoke the same behavior in women? Then what. 

The problem with the whole thing is that it is naive in the assumption that one partner can control the other or train the other. That disrespect and name calling will not be returned in kind. Mr A. never gave the rest of the story which is not surprising. What happened after the incident? His focus is on what the man should do and assumes that the result we be a well trained wife. I would like to hear how things are going now. . 

The problem I have with the MMSL is that it blames the man for all of the breakdown of the relationship and talks about women as if they are untrained dogs. Simple problem - simple solution - become a master trainer and the dog will heel. Some testimonials say it works but where are the details? 

He appeals to men who are not only angry but do not like women. There is no way for a man who does not like woman will get one to love and respect him. That goes against the rules of human nature. In a troubled relationship, women are not the enemy. 

Don't let my gender turn you off. Debate is never harmful. The lack of it has proven harmful many times in history. I like the title of the thread. Everything should be questioned and validated. I think men have the natural talent to lead their family, even laid back men. Women look for heros. Not prince charming, just some regular real guy who can handle them. Many of us need to feel that our man can make his way in the wourld and will be able to take care of the family when we are most helpless, like when having children. . 

Two people in a relationship feed off of each other and set up a dynamic which is changeable. Not by a formula that requires one person to change and treat the other like a subhuman f-toy either. If it was that easy, the book would be a best seller and marital bliss would be at hand. there is no easy way out and no fixed villain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

tacoma said:


> Sorry but this entire post is more "princess building".
> 
> It`s bull****.
> 
> ...


Is this post meant to impress the fellas? Unless your wife is a doormat, I am certain she would ream your azz out if you exercised any of the bravado you claim. I understand now, it is talk. Careless words do have an effect on relationships. That is probably why smart men keep the chest thumping talk among themselves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Never read the book, but have looked through the blog on several occasions; it's not for us, that's for sure, but hey, if MMSL works for any of you guys and gals out there, then good for you. 

But it seems like a sort of .... cult following, reading all the pro-MMSL posts. A HUGE cult following! 

To each their own, I guess!

Peace.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

karma*girl said:


> Yea, thanks nader! U started it!
> Seriously, I identified with exactly what you were saying at the beginning- some of it is somewhat useful, but it needs to strike a deeper chord in order to genuinely reach any strong, intelligent woman.


Well my wife is a strong, intelligent woman. She holds a doctorate in her field. At her most obtuse, she's still smarter than me.

The sexual difficulties we had were in approximately the sixth through the tenth years of our marriage. Since our next anniversary will be our thirty ninth, we've obviously worked though them. (I actually came to TAM because of the religious differences between our families)

What reached her were firmer boundaries. It sounds horrible to say this, but you can spoil another adult in a relationship almost as easily as you can spoil a child. 

I don't mean this as an affront to women, because it goes equally for men. We've all got screaming two-year-olds buried deep in our primal minds.

Being willing to bend endlessly with no boundary even on the horizon will eventually tempt a Saint into bad behavior. For an LD spouse, that bad behavior manifests itself in a very predictable way...


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> The most entertaining part of this thread are those that have not read the book yet can speak all about it. Amazing.


To be honest, E3, I saw it mentioned on TAM so much I looked into it; looked through the blog and was instantly turned off by what I read there. So I didn't get the book, obvioulsy. But still, I'd come here, and see many respected members touting MMSL...I've been back to the blog several times, and still get turned off every time. So I did try! It's just not my thing (and yes, I do realize that it's geared toward men...but I don't see my H really getting into that kind of thing, either, especially the sex rank stuff.).

Peace!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Sure fire way to know you have become a success?

Somebody, somewhere ... hates you for it. 

Based on some of the posts, I think Athol has been successful.

More importantly? Doesn't matter a whit what someone 'thinks' of it.

The MAP works.

The foundation that Athol built MMSL off of ... works.

I'm far from the cult following or drum banging type.

But it works.

All I know is how my life was ... and how it is now. And it's for the better ... for me ... and the woman in my life.

SB's comment was right on. No need to blanket accept or reject all of the concepts based simply upon some of the concepts.

Do what works ... ignore what doesn't.

So basically, I agree with the OP, Nader.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

nader said:


> I've been kind of hooked on Athol Kay lately thanks to this forum... but I have a few issues.
> 
> I think his general principle is spot on -self improvement, finding the right Alpha/Beta mix that your wife responds to.
> 
> ...


You sound quite young? You do seem to be really tempting fate. Lets hope you don’t have to eat your words in ten or twenty years time. If you do then just maybe AK will make more sense to you at that time. That’s normally how these things work but by then the damage will have been done.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> I think you don't get it PH.
> 
> What you said above is interesting. "When his wife decides to treat him like a human being, rather than a rented mule, I'm confident that the husband's manners will return". I'll add - When her husband decides to treat her like a human being, rather than a dog in need of training, I'm confident that the wife's manners will return. So they both can behave this way. Why do you think that the things advised in this book for men will not evoke the same behavior in women? Then what.


Your logic reminds me of the affair fog that adulterous women use to try to gaslight their husbands. The women start acting suspicious, the husbands ask them about it, the women "feel" attacked, the husbands start asking the wives to change their behavior, and finally the women use the husbands' controlling and distrustful natures as excuses to justify the affair that was happening before the husbands ever became distrustful.

You're saying that, if a wife abuses her husband for months, and the husband finally gets fed up and uses surly language, then the wife will be justified in her abuse of her husband. I disagree.



Catherine602 said:


> The problem with the whole thing is that it is naive in the assumption that one partner can control the other or train the other. That disrespect and name calling will not be returned in kind.


If you believe that part of human behavior isn't response to stimulus, then you are the one who is naive. That isn't to say people have no free will. But behavior modification has certainly proven to be somewhat effective in people.



Catherine602 said:


> The problem I have with the MMSL is that it blames the man for all of the breakdown of the relationship and talks about women as if they are untrained dogs. Simple problem - simple solution - become a master trainer and the dog will heel. Some testimonials say it works but where are the details?


I think there is much more to it than that. Some of his theory is simple behavior modification. But much of his theory is simple awareness for men. And he freely admits that it doesn't always work. The final step of his MAP is an ultimatum, which may result in divorce.



Catherine602 said:


> He appeals to men who are not only angry but do not like women. There is no way for a man who does not like woman will get one to love and respect him. That goes against the rules of human nature. In a troubled relationship, women are not the enemy.


I don't see that at all. I can use a parent/child relationship as a metaphor. Sometimes, the child works against the parent. The child may, or may not be aware of the reasons behind the rebellion. But the parent needs to set boundaries and enforce them. At that point, it is up to the child whether to join the parent in having a harmonious relationship, or continue in an adversarial relationship. But I would never argue that a parent setting and enforcing boundaries means that the parent hates children. And I would never advise a parent of a misbehaving child to continue tolerating the misbehavior.



Catherine602 said:


> I think men have the natural talent to lead their family, even laid back men. Women look for heros. Not prince charming, just some regular real guy who can handle them. Many of us need to feel that our man can make his way in the wourld and will be able to take care of the family when we are most helpless, like when having children.


Well said.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Now that you mention it Catherine - one of the things that really really did it for me that my wife did was, and I forget just what all was going on with this, but she just tackle hugged me and said "you're my hero!"


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

AFEH said:


> You sound quite young? You do seem to be really tempting fate. Lets hope you don’t have to eat your words in ten or twenty years time. If you do then just maybe AK will make more sense to you at that time. That’s normally how these things work but by then the damage will have been done.


damn my habit of thinking critically about what I read!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Enchantment,
Yes on all fronts. Your view of what is "true" alpha aligns totally with mine.

Losing your temper, cursing at your partner - totally not alpha. 
All constructive alpha behavior is predicated on excellent emotional self control. 






Enchantment said:


> You have missed the entire point of my post. Go back and read again.
> 
> The point is that being the one IN CONTROL of yourself and your emotions during a potentially emotionally fraught time IS what makes you an alpha...not giving in to the emotionally charged anger and frustration that you feel, but keeping your head about you and being a LEADER is what makes you an alpha.
> 
> Grovelling, deferring, or allowing bad behaviour are not alpha characteristics ... and those are completely the opposite of the traits I was talking about in my post.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes



karma*girl said:


> Enchantment- I read your above post & see exactly what you're saying..it's consistent with being a solid leader.
> No princess crap here- it's about maintaining ones cool in an otherwise hostile environment- so much more to it, but it's true- don't succumb to the lower character's pressure.
> So tough to do, but make a massive impression when it's managed!
> Ex: when my daughter is flipping out, I stay calm & in control in hopes of reeling her back into composure. When I show love in these situations, on top of my controlled reprimanding, she comes out of her funk so much faster..she has less reason to be defensive.
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> Your logic reminds me of the affair fog that adulterous women use to try to gaslight their husbands. The women start acting suspicious, the husbands ask them about it, the women "feel" attacked, the husbands start asking the wives to change their behavior, and finally the women use the husbands' controlling and distrustful natures as excuses to justify the affair that was happening before the husbands ever became distrustful.
> You're saying that, if a wife abuses her husband for months, and the husband finally gets fed up and uses surly language, then the wife will be justified in her abuse of her husband. I disagree.
> 
> If you believe that part of human behavior isn't response to stimulus, then you are the one who is naive. That isn't to say people have no free will. But behavior modification has certainly proven to be somewhat effective in people..


I am confused, I thought we were talking about adult relationships. What are you talking about parent child? A loving relationship between two adults is nothing at all like that between a child and parent. 

Yes you are right, human behavior is driven by reaction to external and internal stimulus. What I see in my life is that the people who manage to exert the most control on their reactivity to stimulus are the ones who lead. If they react in a vulgar manner to a provocation they seem to own it and retreat in shame because they allowed something outside themselves to control them. 

Men who, as you say men "get fed up and use surly language" have to deal with thier wife getting fed up with them and using surly language. They trade surly language. Whoppie. Time would be better spent on someone gaining control of ther behavior and leading the way out of the struggle instead of being drawn in like a lemming. I find men who can be provoked to explode very unattractive. 

I poke my husband sometimes just to see what he will do. He rarely fails me, that's why he is my hero. He does not test me, he knows that i would be a miserable failure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Success is measured by the number of haters accumulated? I did know that. Is there any money in it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Catherine602 said:


> The problem I have with the MMSL is that it blames the man for all of the breakdown of the relationship and talks about women as if they are untrained dogs. Simple problem - simple solution - become a master trainer and the dog will heel. Some testimonials say it works but where are the details?


There's plenty there for female readers to use the exact same approach with their husbands. There's a whole section on the blog for that.

I wish you would just come out and say you just don't like me very much. You'd feel better.


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## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> I poke my husband sometimes just to see what he will do. He rarely fails me, that's why he is my hero. He does not test me, he knows that i would be a miserable failure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry Catherine, but I cannot in good conscience let this one go. You just freely admitted to sh!t testing your husband even after he has proved himself to you multiple times. Maybe he doesn't often fail your tests because he secretly reads MMSL and knows to look for them? 

I have already shared my experience and viewpoint on how MMSL has allowed me to begin changing myself for the better, which I am hopeful will eventually allow our relationship a chance to repair. There's a long long way to go yet, but even a slowing or cessation of the downward spiral is progress to me. 

Having said that I would much prefer to keep my comments focused on actual experience and results of what I am doing based on the advice and opinions of MMSL, not arguing about whether or not I would have or should have called my wife a b!tch for acting like one when she was pregnant. I certainly would not ever get a free pass to act like a d!ck for any reason, and when I do I am called on it, so I think it's just making things as fair as possible given the information we know from the post only.

I can say that much of his content is intended to get a shock reaction out of the beta guy reading it, because let's face it, if things are going well for you I don't think you really have any motivation to be on MMSL in the first place. Much like McDonald's using red and yellow to influence our response by attracting attention, Athol is simply waving the lure in front of us betas (fish pun intended).

I am grateful I stumbled across his blog. I had been looking online for months for resources on relationships trying find out why mine sucked, and when I came across his the light bulb went off. Everything he was describing was what I was doing. Learned behavior is hard to break, but I am slowly making progress. I am not saying Athol is a saint or visionary, he just happened to pick up on something that most of us have been oblivious to for years.

His story does differ from mine quite a bit, though. From what he has described, his wife is fairly laid back, and that would seem to make it quite a bit easier to "take the lead". My experience is much different, because my wife is very high maintenance and has the "I should be treated like a princess" mentality, and to add to the confusion of it all, suffers from pretty major depression. I'm fine with treating her as a princess so long as she treats me like a prince and not a peasant.

My experience so far has been a roller coaster, and I hate roller coasters. I sometimes meet heavy resistance when I take the lead, but in the last few months when I have not backed down, the end result has been very positive, and I am left thinking, "Now why didn't I just do that before? Why was I making that such a big deal?" Still, though, most of the time my first reaction is "flight" rather than "fight", but you have to train yourself to do the latter. 

I want my wife to respect me again, to value me again, to be hot for me again and not just to placate me. I certainly don't want the pressure and stress of being in charge all the time, that's why she's unhappy now, because she's been forced to be in charge all the time. But when we can each take charge in our areas of strength, our teamwork pays off.

As I've said before, I don't just read MMSL, but several different blogs, including here at TAM. I would like to submit that a good chunk of the sex threads I have read would seem to be classic "beta guy" problems that have sprung up because the man was unable or unwilling to break the cycle and stand up for himself. In fact the majority of the advice is for the man to "man up" and talk to his partner about the issue, thereby framing him as alpha by calling attention to the issue at hand and trying to deal with it rather than let it go and build silent resentment. 

The end result? Beta guys (generally) at some point become unattractive to their partners. The "manosphere" as it calls itself, is simply trying to help us understand the why behind it, and offer ways to help turn it around and *save the relationship* and only ending it if there is just no way to restore the balance. The ultimate goal is to have the best relationship possible. If things were to stay where they were over the last couple of years, I would have been completely miserable for the rest of my life, and so would she. Neither of us deserves that, and so I am taking steps to try and make things better. 

Ok, so I've managed to ramble on for quite some time. I only meat to respond directly to Catherine's post. I'll stop now before I have to divide it into volumes.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Success is measured by the number of haters accumulated? I did know that. Is there any money in it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey.. for what it's worth, yesterday Athol responded to a message I had sent to him through his blog. I thought part of his response was a little course and I told him that he was an ******* for using the wording he used - even if I still appreciate the fact that he was the ******* that told me what I needed to hear to save my marriage.

There's a point to be made for the folks trying to debate the detractors. Sometimes you have to ask what the point of debating is. If you're trying to persuade, and this is something " I've had to learn as part of being a better husband, you have to realize that if your "adversary" is taking a position that's contrary to rational thought (ladies - remember, I'm speaking to the men who respond to distress with debate, this is directed towards their frame of mind and not necessarily saying the arguement is about man vs. woman per se.) As I was saying, if you're debating someone because you think their position is irrational, why would you expect to be sucessful at persuassion using a rational approach?

This is the time when you read between the lines to find out how to diffuse the emotionally overwhelmed response.

Take a look at how Athol responded. He didn't try to debate. He just said "go ahead and say you hate me."


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Will I am not trying to persuade anyone by debating. Debate is one of the ways that I learn. If we agreed with everything, where would I be? Ignorant, i think. 

I think Wayne's post is very persuasive. He has a severe problem with a wife he has found difficult to gain a firm foothold with. He benefited from the info on in the book and blog in realizing that his relationship is mutable and is somewhat in his control. I am certain that at lest part of the change in his relationship was stimulated by the book and the blog. I am further convinced that he finds support for continuing his struggle by communication with the men here. 

In that sense the book and blog are helpful. From what I read of the description of the content, I think it does some unnessarry harm. The vulgarity and crudity is an unnecessary component I think. It may cheapen the message and can be an easy target of derision. If the core message is good and helpful, why dress it up with with needless detritus? 

I feel so sorry for his wife and I think that is what made me respond to the thread. She does not defend herself. She seems to have little respect for herself as a person or much self esteem. Makes me wonder what the relationship is really like. I am certain if she countered with similar denegrating comment about him he would not not be silent on the point. 

. I am certain that she would endure curses of feminism and acusations of misandry because she had the audacity to challenge his manhood and publicly too. On the other hand, it might also be an act of forbearance on her part and a smart one too. In not making a show of defense, she frustrates the ravenous mob of angry men waiting for her to take the bait.

I also understand that being female makes my challenges unpalatable for some. I think that it is unfortunate that the relationship problems for some men may have put them in a mind to brook no debate from women. 

I see very little that is positive about women on the MMSL i have visited but find it too distastful to bother with. in fact it seems to be stuck in the juvenile stage of sexueul maturity where women need to be concurred.. I think that a mature view of the opisite gender is best for partnered relationships. Why would men and women who feel so much animosity towards each other expect to be loved by one? 

I hear "let's talk like men without being censure from women". That seems to mean sticking to women is a form of manning up. I may be viewed as unqualified to comment on manning up but I am a woman and I think it is helpful for men to know from at lest some women how the careless talk may hurt their chances of forming a loving relationship. Some men seem to realize that and come away with the part they need that is helpful. they obviously love their wives. Thanks to the men who have been gracious in welcoming my post on a subject that primarily concern men. 

I am not trying to persuade anyone to do anything. I know that for some men, the concerns of women are seen as challenges to their manhood and threatening. Also, some men seem to feel that objections by women is an attempt to prevent male liberation from the clutches of women. I did not realize that I was so powerful. I am not, what ever works is all good to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Will - If my posts are distressing please let me know where and how. It is not intentional. I wont know where the offending content is if I am not told. I sometimes go overboard for effect so take me to task on it, if it is disturbing. . I can explain what I meant or apologize for the offense. Thank you for responding to my post it helps me to understand and decreases my distress about the content of the blog. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Atholk said:


> There's plenty there for female readers to use the exact same approach with their husbands. There's a whole section on the blog for that.
> 
> I wish you would just come out and say you just don't like me very much. You'd feel better.


I feel fine thanks for your concern. 

I do have a difficult time respecting a man who exposes his wife to what i think is public disrespect, devaluation and humiliation. 

You have helped me in a backhanded way and so have some of the man who agree with your vulgarities. I realize daily that I lucked out big time in my marriage. I know I don't deserve him any more than the men and women who have not been as fortunate. I apreciate and respect him now more than i ever . I show him my appreciation in the way that he needs to feel it. From reading on this forum i understand better how he feels love and apreciation and i have used that info. 

So thank you. I have no reason to dislike someone who assisted me, even if it was unintentional. 

I hope other women do the same. 

Here is my advice if this resonates with some women. If he is a good guy, not perfect, show him love. Don't sweat the small stupid things. You are not going to remember that he forgets to unload the dishwasher on his own when you are remembering how happy you are to have him. Make a joke about it and ask him to do it or do it yourself.

I think resentment is a major stumbling block for many women. Some have a hard time letting go of resentment, i know i do and that cuts me off and exposes the man i am lucky to have to stress. Good guys want to make their wives happy. Why needlessly eeeff up what could be a happy life. 

I consider that my husband does not intentionally forget to do things or misinterpret my communication to annoy me. He really does not think like me. He is a lineir thinker and does things sequentially. Most of the time it is funny and not worth getting out of sorts. I am so much calmer now and much happier. 

Any ladies have similar experiences. Post and give other women some support to let go of resentment. It will help the good men who so sincerely love their wives and don't understand what they have done to make their wives store up resentment. I dont think they do it intentionally.

And Count your blessings. You could have a man using you as a foil and exposing you to public humiliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Catherine602 said:


> I do have a difficult time respecting a man who exposes his wife to what i think is public disrespect, devaluation and humiliation.


I could not do any of MMSL without Jennifer's active support. She's a very bright, strong and courageous woman.

We've had around 400 emails thanking us for saved marriages / restarted sex lives since the book came out. I can very much assure you none of those familes look upon Jennifer as an object of disrespect, devaluation or humiliation.

I've also had around 200 emails to the effect of "I found you too late, I wish I had the book 2-3 years ago. I know I would have saved it if I had it then."

I hope you can understand why we do what we do.

Athol


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Will - If my posts are distressing please let me know where and how. It is not intentional. I wont know where the offending content is if I am not told. I sometimes go overboard for effect so take me to task on it, if it is disturbing. . I can explain what I meant or apologize for the offense. Thank you for responding to my post it helps me to understand and decreases my distress about the content of the blog.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually, I wasn't referring to you with the comment about debating. Recall my introductory sentence to that section of my post: "There's a point to be made for the folks trying to debate the detractors."

I've been debating politics online since before Bush and Al Gore were their respective political parties nominees for the next President of the United States. A decade prior I was in debate in high school. Point by point refutations work, sometimes, in formal debate where the outcome is judged by someone who has a debating background, but when you're debating with most people as individuals - when there are personal opinions involved - the tactic of going through a list of a person's statements and refuting them one by one... The tactic is rarely effective.

It's worth bringing this up because frankly I think this same mistake is made in arguements between spouses. (Personal experience, yes) I've made the mistake of arguing like this with my wife. I've mentioned a phrase in other threads where I changed this particular problem (this was one I figured out before MMSL) 

Catherine, here's the way I view your position. You seem to be very locked in on the rational/intelletual views you express but seem resistant to acknowledge the validity of the base instincts that are integrated into our body chemistry.

Athol's wife does, apparently, add comments into blog entries and unless it's phony she seems happy... I think he maybe puts up this public face that his testosterone drives him. Maybe he's a bit less course than that in reality. For one thing, you can find some rather wordy posts from me - I'm a pretty quiet guy in person. For another thing, after I called him out on some course language in an e-mail he sent to me, he responded in an apologetic tone and clarified his comments. 

I think this entire philosophy seems to challenge your beliefs about relationships - It sounds as if you feel that intellect should be able to overcome instinct, and as such men don't need to behave manly to be loved. You seem open to considering alternate viewpoints, but the strength with which the Athol uses language that conflicts with your romantic viewpoint has the effect of repelling you. Kind of like a husband who makes a valid point in an arguement is not heard by his wife merely because he used an elevated tone in his voice.

Think about that one for a second.. Men have thick skulls. Athol is writing for men. If he has to write to a man that he should call out his wife with the B word in order to get the point through that man's thick skull, then maybe the point wouldn't get through to that man if Athol used flowery language.

And to your point, aren't you saying that women should overlook man's shortcomings and love them without them having to resort to manning up tactics. That'd be nice. But if you were having an arguement with your husband, and your husband was making a valid point in a harsh tone of voice, would you be more likely to hear the harsh tone of voice or the valid point? If you say you'd hear the valid point - why is it the tone of Athol's blog is such an issue that you can't read it?

My wife and I are still getting into arguements. I still have to catch myself trying to respond to her as if I'm in a debate, because it doesn't work. When she gets ridiculous, and with all due respect to her - she does, I have to realize that I can't take her literal because often she gets ridiculous because she's overwhelmed. She isn't asking questions that demand a response or making statements she wants refuted. She's overwhelmed about something, and that is what I need to deal with. Sometimes I'm already working on whatever she's overwhelmed about, and I just need to call her out as part of what I need to do to snap her out of her overwhelmed state and start her calming down. That's taking charge, and that's the stuff I learned.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Atholk Thank you so much for graciously answering my post. I believe you when you say that you have helped couples. I will try to understand where the things that I find offensive fit to the message.

This is kind of long but please indulge me if you have the time. I want to tell you why the things that i read about the blog disturb me. 

If you read some of the threads started by men in sex starved marriages, there are a number of comonalities - their wives think that sex is not important, they think their husbands only thinks about sex, that he is using them for sex and that sex has nothing to do with a man's emotional connection. Many male posters castigate women who think like this. But how would these wives know the true nature of male sexuality? That is what they see and hear. They don't come by these notions by spontaneous generation. . 

Women come across your blog and I am certain that there are at lest a few women who react negatively. Moreover, if they are searching for ways to mprove a troubled marriage, these negative things might confirm an already warped sense of male sexuality. 

What i am trying to say is that although you are helping men, you help women while you are helping men. I see it as very positive and warm but I learned that from books and reading post on this forum. 

Many women dont know and even less understand. That is because we women are exposed to an uglly male sexuality. That is why i react negatively to you. It is not so much that you say those things but I know women read it and i cringe to think of what their reactions are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,
I don't think this is about "sexuality" nearly as it is about the overall dynamic. I really have come to believe that a large percentage of the female populace is "wired" to fitness test their male partners. 

And yet very, very few males even knew what a fitness test is/was 10 years ago. 

I have a friend - recently divorced - who went on a date with an attractive woman who had made it clear she was very interested in him. 

On their first date she performed a "phone test". Luckily I had told my friend about my W doing one to me - and explained what I beleived to be the optimal response to it. 

So he goes to the kitchen to get them drinks, comes back and she is doing something on her phone. He smiles to himself (I warned him in advance about how common this is these days), silently puts their drinks on the table. Quietly takes out his phone and starts surfing the web. Within 30 seconds her phone is gone, she is thanking him for the drink and the phone never returns for the rest of the date. 

You don't test your H that often - because he passes. But when a guy FAILS, the tests come faster and they get nastier. This is standard wiring for most women. Sexual rejection - can be a type of fitness test. Somebody has to teach guys how to deal with this stuff. Because when they repeatedly fail - the marriage implodes. 





Catherine602 said:


> Atholk Thank you so much for graciously answering my post. I believe you when you say that you have helped couples. I will try to understand where the things that I find offensive fit to the message.
> 
> This is kind of long but please indulge me if you have the time. I want to tell you why the things that i read about the blog disturb me.
> 
> ...


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## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Will - If my posts are distressing please let me know where and how. It is not intentional. I wont know where the offending content is if I am not told. *I sometimes go overboard for effect* so take me to task on it, if it is disturbing. . I can explain what I meant or apologize for the offense. Thank you for responding to my post it helps me to understand and decreases my distress about the content of the blog.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This bold section of Catherine's quote is exactly the issue that has caused this thread to get way out of control. Athol went overboard for effect.

As I see it we have the good old FDS (female double standard) where it is ok for one side to treat the other in a certain fashion but not ok for the opposite. (Catherine please help me if I have misunderstood that portion of your post.)

I say all this coming from my viewpoint, which is a (newly realized) beta male in a relationship that has slowly been heading downhill toward something unpleasant. The two outcomes of which would either be divorce or a life of misery trying to figure out what the hell went wrong. It is because my wife does not willingly show me love the way I receive it, which for me is physically. (Yes I figured out my love language, as silly as that may sound.) 

For our whole relationship I could only play the rule book I had, which basically said to make her happy, then everyone else will be happy. Well as it seems for me, that ends up after a time making her unhappy because she always has to call the shots, and me miserable because all I am trying to do is make her happy, thus begins the downward spiral.

Having found and read the new "rule book" (again mostly suggestive comments and general notes on doing things differently) on MMSL has opened my eyes to the fact that I have been causing a lot of the bullsh!t that we have been dealing with in our relationship. As I've said before, when I change my behavior, it impacts hers as well. In its most crude form, it is similar to Pavlov's dog, except that it's kind of in reverse. 

_In the past:_
I am the dog and I have been waiting for the bell to ring (to make her happy) before I begin drooling for my food (_my_ kind of love and emotional closeness). I may or may not get fed that day, week, month, etc.

_In the present:_
What this new rulebook says is that I can actually begin eating the food without waiting for the bell if I know to just drool first. I am taking charge and changing my behavior in order to affect a change in my wife's behavior, but it is all for the positive. She gets "a man" who can make decisions without having to defer to her *all the time* (although she has a voice), and I get fed better food more often (love in the way that I understand it best).

I have received quite a bit of resistance on occasion because she is accustomed to making decisions and when I make one it sometimes catches her off guard. Her personality is very defensive and spiteful, so she tends to get "frazzled" rather easily. However as I become more comfortable with taking the lead I am sure she will react more calmly.

Another reason I know that she appreciates an "alpha" male is because of an issue I found out about that happened roughly a year ago. An old boyfriend (who was exceptionally alpha) began contacting her through social media and as it happens lived very close to her work. He quite persistently tried to invite her over and was gaming against me. She did visit once that I can verify but from the information I was able to gather nothing seems to have happened. I stayed low and never told her what I know, and I have not seen any further information to lead me to believe that anything further had happened. 

Six months after this, I found MMSL and began to make changes in me. Finding this information out was what started my search. I had that "uh oh" moment where I knew something had to be done.

Catherine, from the way you describe the state of your relationship with your husband, I find that I am envious. It seems that generally you show each other love in the way the other understands it without need for "help", and I think that is why MMSL seems so foreign to you. Your husband probably wouldn't need to call you out on something if you aren't displaying that behavior. 

Unfortunately, not all of us are that lucky. I had to seek help so that I could keep my beautiful family from someday breaking apart because my wife and I just couldn't make it work. We'd have spent out entire relationship screaming (figuratively, mostly) to make ourselves heard and the message was being lost in translation.

Once I get myself where I need to be, my wife will hopefully see that she also needs to change herself in order for us to work together as a team smoothly. We need to be going in the same direction. The reason Athol focuses so much on sex is because it gets our attention, it is important for us, and a good majority of us feel loved in this way. Ultimately though, his goal is to help the man transform himself into the best version of him possible for the betterment of the relationship. The wife will either respond to this and they can grow, or she will not and it will die, but that is only if NOTHING else works.

I know I have droned on again, but context and back story are so important. I hope I have helped you understand why the portion of males that are in these kinds of relationships are finding so much value from MMSL and other sources.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Will it is true - I do have a more delicate and romantic view of sex. I need that view. I cannot approach sex as an animal instinct just eeeffing, raw and crude devoid of control turns me way off. I like loving sex sometimes, raunchy and passionate, fun and games at others.

I could not have sex with my husband if he told me I was his sex toy. I would not feel safe. Toys can be used, abused and ignored until they are required to give pleasure. I am a lot more than that, no one will treat me like that. 

Again you are right, I think each man should have his native personality but not give more than he gets and not back down from a woman. I don't think that takes a whole personality change it is just self preservation and boundreies that even the most laid back person should have.

I think if you committ to someone then you accept them as they are. If you can't repect them then let them go. They will find someone who treasures them. I have seen many laid back men who are doted on by their wives. The men are sweet and lovable but no pushovers. Simply Amorous talks about her relationship with her laid back husband. Just listening to her talk about him and seeing his pictures makes me like him. She accepts him just the way he is. 

I get what you mean about tone. Sometimes my husband uses a biting menacing tone that makes me see red. I can't hear what he says, I just want to punch him in the nuts and retreat quickly. Figuratively of course. 

He gets visibly shaken if I weep. I try to control crying in front of him. IHe is speechless and frozen sometimes. When i ask him something I have to be careful not to include too much superfluous info. He does not seem to comprehend exactly what I am asking. We both have to make adjustment to our communication style to accommodate each other. It takes a lot of trail and error. 

I'm like your wife, get topped out too. When that happens I can't do anything. I just walk around doing nothing. Crazy. My husband helps me take a hierarchical approach to get unstuck. We are a team with different strengths so it is all good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> Hey Karma*girl, I get where you are trying to come from. and I think wives who aren't habitual witholders are in the boat of well, here are some reasons why (I) as a spouse who occasionally turns down sex may be coming from.
> I think everybody understands that there are completely valid reasons to turn down sex and I don't _think_ MMSL is trying to push the angle of "your wife sucks if she turns you down, here are surefire ways to get you laiiid brah."
> 
> I think a lot of the people who are advocates of MMSL and who it has worked for are people who's wives are habitual witholders for whatever reason and MMSL tries to delve into these reasons and find a solution. The solutions make no sense to wives who aren't habitual witholders and in fact can make sexually active wives angry about being manipulated just for more sex even when the current sex is plentiful and enthusiastic. Some of the solutions aren't even directed towards the woman, but towards the man so that he can better deal with a wife who is perpetually witholding and realize that no matter her reason it's not okay.
> ...


I think your comments are very insightful. This stuff is mostly about the man. I have spoken some with my wife on these concepts. But this is really about my behavior and how I can influence my marriage. The funny thing is that I suspect my wife would argue intellectually against some of what is said, she does understand some of it and gets it, but the important thing is that the concepts I have used have worked very well for us.

Maybe some wives don't want their husband empowered in this way. I am not married to one of those.

I cannot speak for others on this. My wife and I have been married 35 years. Reading MMSL was only one part of me reigniting the passion in my marriage. Recommiting to it if you will. A lot of reasons for this but very common reasons I suspect. For one my highly demanding career. But the career is what supported my family for many years. It allowed my wife to choose work that was rewarding for her but did not provide a large financial benefit to the family.

I had decided to make some life style changes and prioritze my marriage. I just got tired of the cycle that was not providing us the happiness we should have been enjoying. My wife had allowed our family to take all her time which meant that when I had time away from work her time would already be booked. This spirals because then I stop trying to make time away from work which means she is available for the family more and so on. She was basically being taken advantage of. Doing things for family that really they should have been doing. But of course I was working a lot. Chicken and egg. 

This cycle started during times of financial need where I was teaching at the University evenings and Saturdays along with a high profile engineering and management role. She was working as well doing what she enjoyed. I am very proud of her work. She put in many hours beyond her normal work day at home researching and developing materials for teaching that she would do. Her work was essentially charity work. I felt good about this as I was helping her be able to do this work by carrying our financial load. She was touching lives in a very positive way. This is very important to her and a big part of why I love her so much. I saw this as a team effort. At the same time though it was two people who loved each other, were working hard but not reaping the full benefits. We needed to get back on track.

So at some point the genie had to be put back into the bottle. I found I had to make changes in my life and be the leader in my marriage to initiate the changes we needed to make as a couple.

I got back into working out, cut back my work hours by changing jobs, and put extra effort into things from His Needs Her Needs. This was great. I was making the changes I needed to make. 

I then started to initiate the changes that needed to be made within my marriage. I made sure my wife and I prioritized time together. I insisted that by default our time came first. We went through her calendar and I saw just how much she was being taken advantage of. It did not take very long before this part was completely fixed. Somewhere in this I began reading more about how I could make my marriage better. One of the steps was to read MMSL. Another was to join TAM. 

I realized that one can have an ongoing affair with your spouse. This is absolutely all good folks.

My wife is my best friend. But as I have stated in recent times, my new priorities are :

1) To be my wifes exclusive lover.

2) To be her best male friend.

3) To be her husband.

I love her for many reasons but I did not marry a man. I married a woman to have an exclusive sexual relationship with her, raise a family and in general to enjoy our lives together. I was not looking for a sister or a drinking buddy. We are great when we do projects together. I am totally against dating other people and against having a sexual relationship outside the marriage. So you either make your marriage work or leave it. I chose to make my marriage better and will not apologize to anyone for making my wife's life and my life better.

Reading MMSL was a significant help to me. It was not the only thing. I think having a resource for men like this is essential. If a thoughtful man reads MMSL he will take away good stuff.

Why is it ok for wives to read all sorts of relationship stuff but in the hands of men it is dangerous? LOL.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Sawney,
> I just want to know something. How come it is perfectly ok for a woman to:
> Put a lot of time, effort and money into looking good and even looking a bit directly sexual (a bit shorter skirts, etc.), which in turn produces a heightened sexual response from the men she is around?
> 
> ...


Yes, why is it different for women? If a man makes a comment on it he is controlling. It is understood that women desire attention. Many people even justify infidelity when a wife feels she is not getting it at home. Maybe less justification on TAM but not everywhere.

We are also told that women do not dress for their husband but for themselves. 

Thus is also quite unsettling when you see so much written about that husbands do not pay enough attention to thier wife and are not romantic enough.

Marriage is a sexual relationship. The importance of that to a given person at a given time may vary but it is about sex. For many men it is the #1 emotional need right there with repsect. So the book is helpful in showing you how to meet a woman's needs so that she is attracted to you. 

I just don't get the problem here. So a woman is wrong if she makes her self more attractive? If she takes efforts to improve her relationship and she is motivated by wanting more attention, is she a bad person? Is she wrong? That is just absurd. What a mixed up twisted view of things that on a marriage forum folks are against the motivation for a couple to have more and satifying sex. UFB. Yet so many people are adamant about protecting thier relationships with friends outside the marriage. For some it is ok to work on bonding with folks outside the marriage to meet their needs rather than improve what they have with their spouse.

So I contend that MMSL can be good for a good marriage. But it is really hard to argue against it for a marriage that is sexless. That really is not a marriage. So a man taking steps to give the marriage a chance is a loving thing. Many of those men are really in an abusive relationship.

There is no passion in sexless marriage. It is not just about the freqency of sex. It is about the time in between the sex. It impacts everything else in a marriage. Sex is not an isolated act when done right. A sexual realtionship exists when the couple interacts in day to day life together. Surely folks understand this. No?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

karma*girl said:


> I'm sorry you're in that situation WillK- that sucks, no doubt. I am not here to deny that to any of these guys here.
> But Athol, thinking he is an expert on women, is irritating- he's no expert. I am proof.
> The things he proposes are silly to me, but if it works for you, great. It may work on some women.
> 
> ...


Athol's book is really about meeting a woman's needs. It is about what a man can do to help him be more attractive to a woman. This fills in some howto gaps for me that His Needs her Needs does not provide. 

I very much do believe that MMSL is not for broken and sexless marriages ... alone. I think most marriages need much of this. You may be the exception.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM i think you are right. When a woman says I don't want to try that - let's say it is oral sex. It may be an opening gambit, the start of the negotiations.. Not talking about coerssion or begging or demanding. 

The guys who get angry and frustrated close before the game begins. They don't know women. It is not a game or pretense. She is asking him to direct her. Some no's are firm, but some are soft. The only way you tell which is which is which is by suggesting a comprimise activity. If she gives it a go then it is on. Go slow be patient. 

If the no is definite leave it alone but leave the door open. As long as it is something that has pleasure in it for both parties, she may want to try at a later time, if there is no anger and tension. 

Anger, tension and frustration may come off as lack of control and a bit childish. Thats how it worked for me. No third parties, no coercion., nothing humiliating or one sided. 

Him: baby, lets start with a bj tonight. 
Her: I don't like doing that.
Him: I love to see youR beautiful lips on me, just lick the .... 
Her: ok just the ... 
non thretening steps. And the rest is history. It is the good girl syndrome - if he takes the resposibikity to direct things then you don't feel so all alone doing something that the nuns said only ****s do. 

I said I poke him - today I asked him to take me shopping, because I like to be with him, see him sitting around waiting for me, reading a paper talking to other husbands in waiting. He does it to make me happy and spend time with no kids. I asked him to hold my pocketbook I wanted to try to get him to walk around with it. . He would hold it only when we were stationary but he would not walk around with it. No matter what I did he would not move. ~{^^}~
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

karma*girl said:


> SoWhat- I gotchya. What I'm learning is that the definition of emotional closeness to men & women, might just be two very different things.
> THIS is exactly what people are missing & THAT is part of the root problem.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you read His Needs Her Needs?

This is what it is about. Ineed men and woman can have similar needs but they are rarely the same.

Seriously this IS the disconnect. This book handles this very well IMO.

Men and Women are NOT the same. This is GOOD.

For most men the #1 emotional need is sexual fullfillment. #2 is typically respect and admiration. Inferred in these two is fidelity.
It does vary. The top few needs for anyone are really requirements in a relationship. If a wife meets most of a man's other needs but rarely meets his #1 need then his needs are not being met.

So in HNHN they have you each define and prioritize your emotional needs and then talk together about them. You may be surprised.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

karma*girl said:


> I think that you being a good dad & role-model will be the most poignant example for your son- reading material may boost his knowledge, but what he learns from you will be his default setting & the most natural way of his being.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The best role model a husband can be is to be an example of a strong yet loving husband. A boy needs to learn from his father how he should be treated by women and how he should treat them. 

So a man who has poor boundaries is being disrespected by his wife, teaches the boy the wrong lesson. This works both ways. A father who treats his wife with love and respect is the right lesson. This is pretty rare these days for many reasons.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> To be honest, E3, I saw it mentioned on TAM so much I looked into it; looked through the blog and was instantly turned off by what I read there. So I didn't get the book, obvioulsy. But still, I'd come here, and see many respected members touting MMSL...I've been back to the blog several times, and still get turned off every time. So I did try! It's just not my thing (and yes, I do realize that it's geared toward men...but I don't see my H really getting into that kind of thing, either, especially the sex rank stuff.).
> 
> Peace!


There has never been a book written that everyone liked. Another thread but sex rank is pretty real when it comes to attraction. It is just one factor in all of this. More some than with others. But really, it is noteworthy for spouse who have let themselves go. That does matter.

Let us know if you find a copy of the book at the house because your hubby is reading it. LOL.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

All I want to add to this is.. My husband would have never picked up a darn book, but had he picked THIS one up & learned from it , applied this stuff to our marriage, I KNOW that I KNOW that I KNOW it would have improved our sex life tremendously & got me out of my sexual shell so much earlier.

He was way too passive about his needs. The only thing he ever looked up on the net about getting more sex out of me -told him to do more work around the house , do my dishes. Oh what hogwash...might work for some, but I wasn't that type. 

I am one of the women who is not offended by what is written in the book, it's reality, and what men need to do to get their sex lives on track. If I was a man, I would be walking in it's precepts. I believe it works. 

I would throw this book at my husband-- but he wouldn't read it anyway. In our case, it was ME who changed.... took the bull by the horns & boosted our sex life to what it has become... I could have easily gotten bored with him being as passive as he was all of these years..... But yet...we need to be TRUE to our spouses ...and work with what we have. 

The whole "sex rank" thing.... I personally look at physical attraction as the glue in any marraige... if this goes, starts slipping... I really think we become less "tolerable" of the other things that we are struggling with.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Will it is true - I do have a more delicate and romantic view of sex. I need that view. I cannot approach sex as an animal instinct just eeeffing, raw and crude devoid of control turns me way off. I like loving sex sometimes, raunchy and passionate, fun and games at others.
> 
> I could not have sex with my husband if he told me I was his sex toy. I would not feel safe. Toys can be used, abused and ignored until they are required to give pleasure. I am a lot more than that, no one will treat me like that.


There is a pattern in the things that Athol tells us men to do, I found as I read his book. He says to do a number of things that I found sounded rather sexually agressive. But it comes with some key components. Often, a recommended action that sounds sexually agressive is accompanied by looking into her eyes and smiling like a bad boy. Always the approach is that your attitude should be that you are offering your wife to join in on something she will enjoy - something you are doing and it's her perogative to join or not, but if she chooses not to join then she's missing out on a good time.

He also mentions that trying new things is good but it tends to only work out well 30% of the time. I don't recall at any point a mention of if she doesn't like it the first time, try harder... There's a distinction to be made between something she doesn't like and something to which she says no. No can mean "I'm holding out for a better offer" rather than no. This is where looking into her eyes becomes important, because if you offer her something and she says no but she's smiling, you don't quit - you try offering more. Again, still with the ability to turn down a good time, but if she wanted to see how much more the man would do and he just quits - the man comes across as a wimp for quitting, and loses some attraction in her wife's eyes.

And there might be times she's smiling but doesn't really want sex, but she likes the desire he's expressing.. In which case shouldn't he keep up the expression of his desire.

This is an area I'm finding hard to deal with, and frankly a clue that my wife - who says she doesn't want to be shallow - but her biological drive is not as strong as it could be and my extra weight is no doubt a more of a contributing factor than she has let on.



> Again you are right, I think each man should have his native personality but not give more than he gets and not back down from a woman. I don't think that takes a whole personality change it is just self preservation and boundreies that even the most laid back person should have.
> 
> I think if you committ to someone then you accept them as they are. If you can't repect them then let them go. They will find someone who treasures them. I have seen many laid back men who are doted on by their wives. The men are sweet and lovable but no pushovers. Simply Amorous talks about her relationship with her laid back husband. Just listening to her talk about him and seeing his pictures makes me like him. She accepts him just the way he is.
> 
> ...


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Nothing wrong with a husband seducing his wife. Who else should be doing this? If a husband is not doing this he is not meeting her needs.

Good point about the 30%. Athol is upfront about the things he suggestions are just things to explore.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Will are you trying to lose weight as part of working on your marriage? 

I'd like to make a suggestion. Try the low glycemic index diet. There are lots of good books. That's what we do . It does not feel like a diet at all. There are some high glycemic index foods that you exclude but there are always good substitutes. 

For instance, sweet potatoes instead of white. Real wheat bread for white. I make bread in my machine. Very easy. I use a low glycemic index flour that I order from King Author. Taste just like white bread. You can get low glycemic index pasta from the grocery store. Tatse just like the real thing. Use a good flavorful olive oil and parmesan cheese, delicious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Catherine602 said:


> Women come across your blog and I am certain that there are at lest a few women who react negatively. Moreover, if they are searching for ways to mprove a troubled marriage, these negative things might confirm an already warped sense of male sexuality.
> 
> What i am trying to say is that although you are helping men, you help women while you are helping men. I see it as very positive and warm but I learned that from books and reading post on this forum.
> 
> Many women dont know and even less understand. That is because we women are exposed to an uglly male sexuality. That is why i react negatively to you. It is not so much that you say those things but I know women read it and i cringe to think of what their reactions are.


Hi Catherine,

According to the Alexa stats, I have more female readers than male ones on about a 55/45 split. They keep coming back day after day and also buying the books.

I answer a ton of reader email from women. That's about 60/40 split favor of the men.

Women looking for answers to their troubled marriages and stalled sex lives don't mind the frank talk one bit. They crave someone to be honest with them.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I just want to know who your negotiating with for the reality show. And if you aren't ... fire your agent. You should be.

Women have Dr. Phil and Oprah.

Men have Tucker Max and you ... and I don't think Tucker is a big advocate for preserving marriage.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Deejo said:


> I just want to know who your negotiating with for the reality show. And if you aren't ... fire your agent. You should be.
> 
> Women have Dr. Phil and Oprah.
> 
> Men have Tucker Max and you ... and I don't think Tucker is a big advocate for preserving marriage.


A reality show is possible in the future, but it's probably 2-4 years away rather than in the immediate short term. I'm tempted to do a full length movie documentary more than a reality show though.

Also we have teens and the demands of a reality show would be hard on them.

We have another project we're working on at the moment.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I see it being like Super Nanny ... only with dudes.

Wait ... maybe don't pitch it quite that way ...


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I see it being like Super Nanny ... only with dudes.
> 
> Wait ... maybe don't pitch it quite that way ...


Well it's not too far off, but I think the idea would have to be like Athol was like a drinking buddy or wingman or something.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

WillK said:


> Well it's not too far off, but I think the idea would have to be like Athol was like a drinking buddy or wingman or something.


And it would almost HAVE to be on Spike.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> There has never been a book written that everyone liked. Another thread but sex rank is pretty real when it comes to attraction. It is just one factor in all of this. More some than with others. But really, it is noteworthy for spouse who have let themselves go. That does matter.
> 
> Let us know if you find a copy of the book at the house because your hubby is reading it. LOL.


It's not about liking it or not liking it, it's simply about being completely irrelevant to our situation; but I'll tell you what, I'll get him to browse the blog tonight and then I'll get back to you with his comments. Who knows? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he'll take one look at Athol's stuff, and love it. But I don't think so.

Sex rank absolutely does factor in, if you're that shallow, that is.


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## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> Sex rank absolutely does factor in, if you're that shallow, that is.


I have been very interested in all the different viewpoints that have shown up on this thread, but this one I think sums up the most common misunderstanding I have seen. The sex rank is a tool, and it is really a subconcious evaluation of the quality of a potential mate. It's really more a body chemistry thing, if I have interpreted Athol's meaning correctly (and please correct me if I'm wrong, Athol).

The term "sex rank" is used simply to give us a way to describe the level of attractiveness, or the level of mate-worthyness, of another individual. Or put more directly, when you see someone walking down the street and think, "Wow, they're hot!", that is your body agenda telling you that based on the information you have at that moment, their sex rank is fairly high and they would make a good mate. Please make sure you noticed I said it was the information available at that time, as it can change.

The blog is not about brow-beating your spouse into submission, or really submission at all. At the core of it, it's simply enhancing your own behavior for the betterment of the relationship. Part of that process is to establish a "chain of command" or "natural order" so that when decisions need to be made people aren't running around everywhere like chickens with their heads cut off.

The woman's voice is equally important as the man's, here. If I am doing my job and making sure things are running smoothely, then my wife will generally be content and happy to follow along with what's going on, rather than sh!t-testing me every 5 seconds about little things that ordinarily wouldn't mean anything.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

wayne81 said:


> I have been very interested in all the different viewpoints that have shown up on this thread, but this one I think sums up the most common misunderstanding I have seen. The sex rank is a tool, and it is really a subconcious evaluation of the quality of a potential mate. It's really more a body chemistry thing, if I have interpreted Athol's meaning correctly (and please correct me if I'm wrong, Athol).
> 
> The term "sex rank" is used simply to give us a way to describe the level of attractiveness, or the level of mate-worthyness, of another individual. Or put more directly, when you see someone walking down the street and think, "Wow, they're hot!", that is your body agenda telling you that based on the information you have at that moment, their sex rank is fairly high and they would make a good mate. Please make sure you noticed I said it was the information available at that time, as it can change.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your explanation...I just went onto Athol's blog, and once again, everything I read was simply making me cringe. But I will still present it to my husband and a few other people whose opinions I value. Maybe it's me. Maybe I just don't like his style. I certainly don't agree with anything he writes, but I do applaud him for making a success out of it! :smthumbup:

As for all this 'test' stuff that I keep reading about, just an FYI, we women aren't all like that. I've never given a man a 'phone test' or any other type of test, because I don't believe in those kinds of ridiculous games.

It's probably just not my thing, no matter what anyone else writes about it.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> As for all this 'test' stuff that I keep reading about, just an FYI, we women aren't all like that. I've never given a man a 'phone test' or any other type of test, because I don't believe in those kinds of ridiculous games.
> 
> It's probably just not my thing, no matter what anyone else writes about it.


The one thing that seems to keep me interested in this discussion is how women hear about what Athol says they do and say they don't do it... So I want to explore this quick..

Let's say you had a doubt about your husband being the man you want him to be. Would you clearly recognize that doubt and ask him directly?

Or would you start by wondering "Does he have the ability to lead this family by whatever?" then maybe watch to see if you're wondering for no reason, come up with indirect ways to figure it out without taking the insensitve step of asking him directly? Do you try to protect him by disguising your doubts?

Have you seen "Princess Bride?" In the beginning when Buttercup asks Farm Boy "Will you fetch me this pan?" and he says "As you wish" and that's the moment she realizes she truly loves him back... Would you have just asked Farm Boy if he loves you? Or do you find that moment in the movie, as it is, to be deeply romantic?

Are you still sure you don't test?


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> Sex rank absolutely does factor in, if you're that shallow, that is.


Sex ranking is a real concept. I saw the video on the link below on a Discovery Channel documentary. This clip is part of a longer show dedicated to how and why we are attracted to members of the opposite sex. 
This is not a consious, intellectual thing. It is instinctual.

Science of Sex Appeal - Out of Your League? - YouTube


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

Every woman that reads about fitness testing claims she doesn't fitness test. This may be true, but I've never met a woman (wife, girlfriend, friend, relative or otherwise) who doesn't do it, lol.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> It's not about liking it or not liking it, it's simply about being completely irrelevant to our situation; but I'll tell you what, I'll get him to browse the blog tonight and then I'll get back to you with his comments. Who knows? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he'll take one look at Athol's stuff, and love it. But I don't think so.
> 
> Sex rank absolutely does factor in, if you're that shallow, that is.


I think sex rank exists and is a factor. Matters more to some than others. But it exists in society. It may not be relevant for individuals but that does not mean it is not relavent for many.

Personally I find my wife sexy no matter what.

Oh by like I mean find it relevant or have some value. 

My comments are not about trying to be right. I do not think this book is for everyone. I was joking about you possibly finding the book. Odds are you know your hubby pretty well and he will not find this relevant. That is fine.

But FWIW, the book is what I am talking about. Whether one can go to blog and "get it" is another matter. I needed the book for context. There is a flow to the book that makes sense to me.

I am aware I can be very obtuse. But I do get what you are saying. Only certain parts of Athol's book are relavent to me. That does not mean I do not find the rest interesting. I am that way.

Just picking something at random. What about the ten second kiss?


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

If we weren't "shallow," babies wouldn't get made. Romantic relationships wouldn't exist. Etc.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> Sex ranking is a real concept. I saw the video on the link below on a Discovery Channel documentary. This clip is part of a longer show dedicated to how and why we are attracted to members of the opposite sex.
> This is not a consious, intellectual thing. It is instinctual.
> 
> Science of Sex Appeal - Out of Your League? - YouTube


Here's the thing. I believe that any human can over-ride instinct, so my wife can look at my gut and have desire for me to giver her a pounding in bed. It's probably exhausting, though, and when she's tired at the end of the day - she doesn't have the energy to override instinct. 

She sure doesn't wake me up in the middle of the night for sex when we were younger, I was skinnier, she was 21 and taking college classes and I was an engineer making a paycheck. I make more, but she works now, she looks just as good as she did and I don't.

She never said a thing. She doesn't even like to admit it, but since I'm not reacting defensively and I want to do something about it, she admits it in so far as she won't deny it when I ask.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Deejo said:


> I see it being like Super Nanny ... only with dudes.
> 
> Wait ... maybe don't pitch it quite that way ...


Maybe like _Queer Eye For The Straight Guy... _but less gay.

Except running the MAP takes time, so there's an element of The _Biggest Loser_ in there too.

Of course if she's up to no good... it starts off as an episode of _Cheaters._

There's a sort of _Law and Order _thing where you have to find out the problem, and then find the solution.

So it's complicated. And yes I've thought about it.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

WillK said:


> The one thing that seems to keep me interested in this discussion is how women hear about what Athol says they do and say they don't do it... So I want to explore this quick..
> 
> Let's say you had a doubt about your husband being the man you want him to be. Would you clearly recognize that doubt and ask him directly?
> 
> ...


One, I'm not a big entertainment buff, so I don't base my life decisions on what they do in Hollywood movies...I have never even heard of Princess Bride, so couldn't possibly comment.

Two, I am very direct; I ask my husband things all the time. I don't beat around the bush, I don't play games and I don't 'test'. Just a few days ago, we were sort of 'off'. You know how that happens. I asked the obligatory "What's up/wrong?". He said "Nothing."...The off-ness continued, and I actually did ask him "Do you love me?". 

Now, who thinks asking the direct question is 'too needy'?


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

SoWhat said:


> If we weren't "shallow," babies wouldn't get made. Romantic relationships wouldn't exist. Etc.


Hmmm....I question that. Not everyone is high up there on this sex rank scale of Athol's, yet there are plenty of babies around. Certainly hasn't stopped the uglies from mating! :rofl:


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> Hmmm....I question that. Not everyone is high up there on this sex rank scale of Athol's, yet there are plenty of babies around. Certainly hasn't stopped the uglies from mating! :rofl:


That's misunderstanding, though. It's not that only 10's mate. It's that a 10 and 5 aren't going to mate, but a 5 and a 5 or a 5 and a 6 - yeah, no problem.

For that matter, getting a sperm donor is no problem, you only have to overcome the absence of attraction for a few minutes.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> One, I'm not a big entertainment buff, so I don't base my life decisions on what they do in Hollywood movies...I have never even heard of Princess Bride, so couldn't possibly comment.
> 
> Two, I am very direct; I ask my husband things all the time. I don't beat around the bush, I don't play games and I don't 'test'. Just a few days ago, we were sort of 'off'. You know how that happens. I asked the obligatory "What's up/wrong?". He said "Nothing."...The off-ness continued, and I actually did ask him "Do you love me?".
> 
> Now, who thinks asking the direct question is 'too needy'?


You almost make it sound like you wear the pants in the family


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

CandieGirl said:


> One, I'm not a big entertainment buff, so I don't base my life decisions on what they do in Hollywood movies...I have never even heard of Princess Bride, so couldn't possibly comment.
> 
> Two, I am very direct; ...


That's fine if you are direct and don't test your husband. You are an exception to the rule. Obviously, every rule has exceptions. I don't think that the fact that a rule has exceptions should negate the utility of the rule.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

WillK said:


> That's misunderstanding, though. It's not that only 10's mate. It's that a 10 and 5 aren't going to mate, but a 5 and a 5 or a 5 and a 6 - yeah, no problem.
> 
> For that matter, getting a sperm donor is no problem, you only have to overcome the absence of attraction for a few minutes.


Oh, I get it now...ones with ones, twos with twos, and so on...still doesn't explain all the unbalanced couples I see out there.

Even you men that are 3's and 4's (or lower) lust for a woman who's a 8, 9 or 10...

I'd love to get my hands on a copy of the book, but I refuse to pay for it, because I really can't buy into what Athol is telling all you men to do.

I call BS...


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Wait a second, maybe I overlooked something. Perhaps CandieGirl is still in her honeymoon. Just looked at her profile where she says she's been in her relationship 1-2 years.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> Oh, I get it now...ones with ones, twos with twos, and so on...still doesn't explain all the unbalanced couples I see out there.


And there-in lies a difference in attraction, because women can be attracted to men because of stability (i.e. income)



> Even you men that are 3's and 4's (or lower) lust for a woman who's a 8, 9 or 10...


Yeah, but that doesn't mean it will work the other way around. What are the 3's and 4's supposed to do, wait behind a corner with a bucket of genetic material, jump out and yell "surprise"



> I'd love to get my hands on a copy of the book, but I refuse to pay for it, because I really can't buy into what Athol is telling all you men to do.
> 
> I call BS...


9.99 to download from Amazon.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

WillK said:


> Wait a second, maybe I overlooked something. Perhaps CandieGirl is still in her honeymoon. Just looked at her profile where she says she's been in her relationship *1-2 years*.


That is true, but we've had our challenges...! So I'd say the honeymoon period is definitely over...

As I said I would, I had my husband look over the blog. I did not tell him anything about it, just that it was MMSL, so I did not project my opinion in any way at all to him. He spent about 30 minutes, looking over various posts. He let out a laugh / chuckle here and there (which made me instantly think "OH NO!!!"), but then, he told me he had seen enough, and he asked me why I was showing him this. It wouldn't be the first time I showed him a website, or handed him a relationship book, or come up with some other exercise to help our marriage, so he thought I was promoting MMSL for our (his) use...He said, "What, so you want me to start being mean to you now? Because I'm not seeing anything in here that's grabbing me...can I stop now?". This was without my prompting, I swear!

I encouraged a family member to look at the blog as well...female...she had pretty much the same reaction that I did. She in turn, has asked numerous friends and acquaintances...same reaction. So it's not just me! And believe me, sometimes, I feel like I'm the only one (on here) who is just not liking these views of his...

Again, I'm not offended, it's not that I 'don't like Athol', or am jealous of the success (like a hater), I'm just not seeing it.

Not!


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

CandieGirl said:


> Oh, I get it now...ones with ones, twos with twos, and so on...still doesn't explain all the unbalanced couples I see out there.


There are many elements of attraction. If a beautiful woman is attracted to a homely man, the man probably has other talents (such as money) to make up for his deficit in looks. If an attractive man is with a homely woman, she may be a rock star in the bed room. But usually, beautiful men mate with beautiful women. And the opposite is also true.



CandieGirl said:


> Even you men that are 3's and 4's (or lower) lust for a woman who's a 8, 9 or 10...


Sure. Attraction isn't the same as mate selection. There are very many "unshallow" women in the world who lust after George Clooney, or Brad Pitt. And most of those women understand that they have no shot at landing either one as a mate.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

CandieGirl said:


> Oh, I get it now...ones with ones, twos with twos, and so on...still doesn't explain all the unbalanced couples I see out there.
> 
> Even you men that are 3's and 4's (or lower) lust for a woman who's a 8, 9 or 10...
> 
> ...


It's similar to the "celebrity phone book" analogy a former local talk radio duo put forth. The first time I heard them mention it was when Jennifer Garner, at the height of the popularity of Alias, announced her divorce from her husband and started dating co-star Michael Vartan. The theory was that, since we know there are different strata of celebrity (A-list, B-list, etc), when you reach a higher level of celebrity, your personal phone book is replaced and you're only allowed to associate with/date those in your new phone book (on the same "level" as you). As you go up and down in prominence, your phone book gets replaced. Being on a popular show, Garner "got a new phone book," and her then-current husband wasn't in it.

Oh, and "The Princess Bride?" Quite possibly the most perfect movie ever put to film. It's got everything...fencing, fighting, torture, revenge, giants, monsters, chases, escapes, true love, miracles.... I highly recommend it. My friends and I went to see it every weekend for a couple of months in high school.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> One, I'm not a big entertainment buff, so I don't base my life decisions on what they do in Hollywood movies...I have never even heard of Princess Bride, so couldn't possibly comment.


Oh yeah... I forgot a comment, so I had to rewind.

What are you going to tell me next, you never saw The Godfather?


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

WillK said:


> Oh yeah... I forgot a comment, so I had to rewind.
> 
> What are you going to tell me next, you never saw The Godfather?


Now now...be nice...in my defence, I was 6 or 7 years old when that film came out...I have not seen it, but I have seen parts of it (very short, maybe 10 minutes or so, a car blows up with some woman in it I think...).

I have never seen Pulp Fiction, Jaws, Friday the 13th, either! 

Serious. Hells Kitchen started again last night, and I was all excited because now I will have 2 shows to watch!


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> There are many elements of attraction. If a beautiful woman is attracted to a homely man, the man probably has other talents (such as money) to make up for his deficit in looks. If an attractive man is with a homely woman, she may be a rock star in the bed room. But usually, beautiful men mate with beautiful women. And the opposite is also true.


I believe Athol provides examples too.. Henry Kissinger "Power is the ultimate aphrodesiac". Take a look at a pic of Henry Kissinger, whom I believe had a reputation as a ladies man.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> Now now...be nice...in my defence, I was 6 or 7 years old when that film came out...I have not seen it, but I have seen parts of it (very short, maybe 10 minutes or so, a car blows up with some woman in it I think...).
> 
> I have never seen Pulp Fiction, Jaws, Friday the 13th, either!
> 
> Serious. Hells Kitchen started again last night, and I was all excited because now I will have 2 shows to watch!


That's 5 or 6 years older than I was!


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

CandieGirl said:


> Now now...be nice...in my defence, I was 6 or 7 years old when that film came out...I have not seen it, but I have seen parts of it (very short, maybe 10 minutes or so, a car blows up with some woman in it I think...).
> 
> I have never seen Pulp Fiction, Jaws, Friday the 13th, either!
> 
> Serious. Hells Kitchen started again last night, and I was all excited because now I will have 2 shows to watch!


NOTHING wrong with never having seen Friday the 13th. I've never seen any of them, and am quite proud of that fact. And, while being a big movie buff...I've...um...never seen The Godfather, either. I was drooling over a nice big blu-ray set of Citizen Kane on Sunday, though.

But seriously...The Princess Bride. See it. 
If it gives you any indication, when they covered it on VH1's snarky I Love the 80's series, none of the commenters had a single bad or sarcastic thing to say about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

I try many things I learn of here, and most of the time I am not disappointed


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

CandieGirl said:


> I try many things I learn of here, and most of the time I am not disappointed


Do elaborate


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

Atholk said:


> Maybe like _Queer Eye For The Straight Guy... _but less gay.


Athol, if you ever have a reality show and become some kind of wife whisperer, I would totally watch it.


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## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

I sure have found this thread interesting. There are two basic camps.

Camp 1 - The "good" camp that everyone wants to be in

In this camp communication is already well-established and day to day functions run smoothely. There is a clear order of doing things and who is responsible for what. Sexually speaking, both partners _want_ to please the other, and in doing so obtain pleasure themselves. This leads to general happiness for both parties in the relationship, and that energy then flows into all other aspects of the relationship.

Camp 2 - The "Other" camp that is the only other option besides just not going

In this camp, there is a real lack of communication. The counselors don't really give a crap and as such there is no order or established way of doing things. To top it off, they speak Esperanto or Swahili (I tired to think of something both exotic and funny) while us campers are speaking English. Aside from hand guesters and pictograms drawn in the dirt with a stick we don't really get much across to each other. 

Sure we have fun sometimes. But it takes a lot of time and effort to get to that point. Usually by then we are so worn out from trying to communicate that we would just rather go to the cabin and hit the bunk. 

Sexually speaking, we usually end up having to take care of things ourselves because of the frustration that has built up in trying to communicate. Unfortunately there is no merit badge for that activity otherwise I would be at "Sage" level by now!

The frustration and resentment at lack of communication (and physical intimacy) creates an energy that flows into the rest of the relationship in the opposite way as Camp 1.

To put it another way, Camp 1's toilet water swirls clockwise and because that works for them they don't really even know it can swirl the other way. Camp 2's toilet water swirls counter-clockwise and it p!sses us off to no end because we know for a fact that it can (and should) spin the other way.

Ok, so I took you through all of that for the toilet water swirly analogy? Yes, because I thought it was that good.

---

I have actually snuck over to Camp 1 a time or two. It's a heck of a trip. After you swim through the alligator-infested river, you have to cross the desert of eternal no-sex, then there is the Bog of Eternal Stench from the movie Labyrinth. Then remember the snipers...and razor wire, I hate razor wire.

Anyway, I guess what I am saying is that if things in your relationship are going well, and have generally always done so, you don't have any reason to think about it, and therefore wouldn't have any motivation to pursue making the relationship better. You are probably maintaining that level, but most likely aren't working to "up" it very much. If your relationship isn't going well, then it's pretty much always on your mind and at some point you hit your "uh oh" moment, where you realize things are in real trouble, you start trying to figure out how to fix it. Since I can't afford counseling for myself or us as a couple, and money is one of our big stress issues, I hit the Net for some (free) help. That is where I ran into MMSL and have been learning ever since.

It's by no means the perfect answer or the golden ticket to my situation, as I've said before my personal experiences are vastly different than Athol's, but I see value in the concepts, the theory, he is talking about. He is direct because it snaps us out of stupid-ville and into reality. 

If you went to the doctor and they found out you were going to die (hopefully that's not actually happening to anyone), would you rather the doctor say, "Well I think based on lots of extensive testing and collaboration with other colleagues on this matter we feel it is slightly to non-slightly conclusive that you may or may not be heading for a minor to major life event in which the outcome could be up to and including termination of employment with your life force," or you would rather than say, "I'm sorry, but I think you will die soon"?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Hmmm....I question that. Not everyone is high up there on this sex rank scale of Athol's, yet there are plenty of babies around. Certainly hasn't stopped the uglies from mating! :rofl:


7s mate with 7s

A male 9 will mate with a female 7. He just probably won't hang around. 
That is the rhetoric anyway.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Oh, I get it now...ones with ones, twos with twos, and so on...still doesn't explain all the unbalanced couples I see out there.
> 
> Even you men that are 3's and 4's (or lower) lust for a woman who's a 8, 9 or 10...
> 
> ...


They may not be unbalanced as much as your think. 

A male 6 will absolutely lost for 6 - 10. They will have sex with 4s and 5s as well.

Women however tend to seek the fittest male. So they are less likely to have sex with men below their sex rank.

Sex rank as it pertains to a woman are often more about physical appearance. That said a woman can up her sex rank by showing more skin or being more open sexually. A smile goes a long way.

A man has a harder time to up his sex rank in a short period. Yes he can dress differently and smile. But usually he has to do tings over a longer time period. He can buy a better car.

His sex rank is greatly influenced by his status and financials alonge wiht physical traits. This is probably chamging now that women are more financially independent. 

You will hate this but this is true in the animal kingdom where the females gravitate to the dominant male who controls resources.

The bottomline is if a woman walks into a crowded bar or club where people meet to hookup, she can decide to have sex that night. Likely over have the men in the club would have sex with her that night. However the average guy does not know if he is having sex or not.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

WillK said:


> Wait a second, maybe I overlooked something. Perhaps CandieGirl is still in her honeymoon. Just looked at her profile where she says she's been in her relationship 1-2 years.


Yup

But ... never have seen Princess Bride!? That is disturbing. Inconceivable!


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> You are an exception to the rule. Obviously, every rule has exceptions. I don't think that the fact that a rule has exceptions should negate the utility of the rule.


_"You can't triple-stamp a double-stamp Lloyd!!!"_


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

You guys all watch too much television...! (and movies)


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

Ah, but you knew I was quoting a movie... so what does that say about you!?


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Yup
> 
> But ... never have seen Princess Bride!? That is disturbing. Inconceivable!


I may only be in this relationship for 2 years, that's true, but don't discount all the years of experience I've had with different relationships over the years. It's still experience, it's just different than experience with only one other person.  Guess I'm difficult to please!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> I may only be in this relationship for 2 years, that's true, but don't discount all the years of experience I've had with different relationships over the years. It's still experience, it's just different than experience with only one other person.  Guess I'm difficult to please!


Hey, you have to see this movie.


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## jaffab (Jun 11, 2012)

Hello All,

I know that this discussion has been going on for a number of weeks (and pages), but I have just registered as I wanted to add my own 2 cents on the subject.

I have read all the previous comments, and have read Athols book.

My view on the married mans primer is.... that people change. When I got together with my wife, I am pretty sure I was way more Alpha than I am now - I did a lot of chasing after her - and maybe that is what attracted me to her (and visa versa). But, I am sure that through living together, I have become more beta - the chase is gone - which is why I read Athols book.

But, she changed as well - when we got together she dressed up 'for me' (always looked nice for dates). Then we fell into the trap that all couples fall into (I guess) - she still dressed up, but for other people (at work, when we went into town) - for me, well I got the unmade hair and the pajama sets. I pang for the days of lingerie and seduction. 

I recognized how much I had changed when I read in the book about the meal conversation. When we got together, I would lead with "Lets go for a chineese - this looks good - lets go here" and I recognized I have now moved into the "What do you want to eat? I dont know, what do you want?" conversations. Its a small issue - but a point well made in his book. And that of course is just the tip of the iceberg.

So I have started trying to become more Alpha up again - take control more - make decisions - make more demands if you will (in the home, in the relationship, and yes, in bed).

There have been comments on this discussion the fitness tests, and a few people saying "I dont do that" by various women. But one of the things I have read all other the web about tests is... a lot of the time, its a subconscious test - women don't even know they are doing it ("Can you go and get my drink from lounge?" - when we are both standing in the kitchen - "go get it yourself" is now my reaction). I still am confused about when a request is a fitness test, and when it is really a need for help/action.

But on the whole - I can see where Athol is coming from. I can see that girls are brought up to see men as somebody who will come along and whisk them away to give them a life they need (any Disney movie shows this) - but I also see in my own relationship and those of my friends where women 'shape' their men over time - to become more Beta - and at some point the balance goes too far, the man becomes too Beta and women lose respect and/or desire.

I am (and here I lay myself open to being kicked) also more and more frustrated by the single edge sword that women are now wielding in relationships - my wife has certainly used it against me. More and more we are told that Women only have to do what they want to do - what they are prepared to do - what they are happy to do. Its the women's choice. But if we men dont want to do something, well then we are being unreasonable and selfish. But shouldn't the door swing both ways?

So whilst some people here may knock the MMSL, I can see where it is coming from, and whilst it may appear very stone-man in its approach (ug, me man, you women), I using it (and other such web resources) as a blueprint of ideas to reestablish the Alpha traits which have been worn away (I will still keep enough Beta to keep everybody happy).

I am really just getting started, but the relationship is improving.

As I say, just wanted to add my own 2 cents into the very interesting discussion.

Jaffa


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> I am NOT recommending the following approach - just describing what I observed.
> 
> When menopause reduced my wife's desire and pain caused the start of sexual aversion:
> - she didn't bother to play the game of "excuses" with me - just said directly "I don't want to do this anymore"
> ...


Because it reduces women's power if non-alpha men learn how women's reactions work, and they instinctively react to that negatively. It's fine if a man "just gets it", because that means he's an alpha, but a non-alpha learning about it raises the risk that such a non-alpha will be able to fool her into thinking he is an alpha, than which there is nothing more horrible!


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Three year old thread, but i guess it can be a good topic of conversation.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> Hey Karma*girl, I get where you are trying to come from. and I think wives who aren't habitual witholders are in the boat of well, here are some reasons why (I) as a spouse who occasionally turns down sex may be coming from.
> I think everybody understands that there are completely valid reasons to turn down sex and I don't _think_ MMSL is trying to push the angle of "your wife sucks if she turns you down, here are surefire ways to get you laiiid brah."
> 
> I think a lot of the people who are advocates of MMSL and who it has worked for are people who's wives are habitual witholders for whatever reason and MMSL tries to delve into these reasons and find a solution. The solutions make no sense to wives who aren't habitual witholders and in fact can make sexually active wives angry about being manipulated just for more sex even when the current sex is plentiful and enthusiastic. Some of the solutions aren't even directed towards the woman, but towards the man so that he can better deal with a wife who is perpetually witholding and realize that no matter her reason it's not okay.
> ...


No, you have hit a home run!


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Thread Locked. There are two other MMSL threads running on the forum already. Trying to keep those two in Kumbaya land is tough enough without a third. Please direct your comments there. Thanks.


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