# Wife and Her Ex-Fiance Keep Causing Trouble



## Shadowboxer (May 23, 2012)

I am having a problem with my wife's repeated attempts to renew a friendship with her ex-fiance. I have already intervened and told her I am not comfortable with their "friendship," which seems to constantly push the boundaries. Right now, she says there is no contact. I don't entirely believe her, and I'm wondering about next steps.

Here is my story. Sorry, but it is a bit long. I've been with my wife for 20 years. We've been married 18 of those years. We have three kids, all in their teens. 

Before she met me, my wife was engaged to another man. They were both young. She cheated on him. He caught her and dumped her without any explanation.

When I met her, she had dated a few other guys, but still had hang ups about being dumped by the ex-fiance. It took a year or so for us to work through those issues. She really HATED her ex, or at least said she did.

After we got married, we had lots of issues and it has been rough, but never anything to do with infidelity. Her ex-fiance had not been a factor in our problems since the early dating days.

Then, in the fall of 2010, after over 20 years of no contact, her ex-fiance reached out to her. He called my wife's sister in law and left asked her to give my wife his number and call him if she was interested in "catching up." Sister in law passed the message to my wife.

In short order, my wife told me about the blast from the past and asked how I felt about it. I told her it was up to her, that I trusted her, but that the ex obviously had some regrets and and probably was looking for something more than to just "catch up."

Wife decided to call him, and told me about the call afterwards. She also mentioned that she thought they might "stay in touch." I was a little concerned, but the guy is a bit of a loser, lives 800 miles away, and trusted my wife. I now regret not nipping it in the bud right then.

About a month later, my wife mentioned that her ex was getting ready to take an annual trip to a location about 100 miles away from our home, and had said it would be nice to get together for lunch. His trip happened to fall on a weekend that I would be recovering from a surgery, which she told him. At that point, he encouraged her to not tell me she was going to see him, and that he was sure I could recover nicely for a day without her. 

She told me all of this, and acknoweldged that she wouldn't see him without telling me. She then asked if I thought I would feel up to travelling out with her to meet the ex. Um, no. She then asked if the ex could then come and visit us. Um, no. And I told her that his request was completely inappropriate in my opinion and that she should end contact. His motives were clearly not good.

She insisted that I could trust her and continued to have sporadic calls with him (about 1 or 2 a month) for about 3-4 months. 

Then, in spring 2011, she told me that I was right. His intentions weren't good and that she was ending all contact with him. That was that.

Then, in August 2011, I noticed she never let the cell phone out of her sight. She went from leaving it around the house to literally sleeping next to it every night. She started going to bed earlier than usual and always took the cell phone with her. 

By September I was thinking she was in contact with her ex-fiance again. I snooped and saw she was deleting call history, but I did see a few calls, and now texting. I read the texts, and the content was pretty innocent. No sexting, no professions of love, no deep thoughts. 

By September I looked at the billing records and was shocked to see how many texts and phone calls they had been exchanging since late July. It was just about daily. They waited until I took the kids to soccer practice and then called each other. She initiated as often, or more, than him. They texted at night after I was asleep. They talked for hours one night when I was out of town, and only ended the call because I called her. She would text and call him while I was mowing the lawn, or when she ran an errand, etc. It was all very secret and it made me sick.

I combed through the computer and looked for other communication, but there was none. It was all text and cell phone calls. 

I confronted her in October. She said they were just friends and that I shouldn't worry, etc. She was sorry I was hurt, but didn't really acknoweldge she did anything wrong. She offerred to cut off contact (which she had alrady told me she had done the past spring). I told her that's what I wanted and she texted him a goodbye message that said I asked her to choose and she chose me. 

In the next six months he texted her twice. She told me about both texts and did not respond. 

Then, in April she told me that he sent her a facebook friend request and that she "had to" accept it. I should have slammed the door, but didn't. My bad. 

She immediately began sending him private messages, posting on his public "wall," sending him email, and tried to start IM chats with him through her email account. He didn't respond to any of her flurry of messages, except the facebook PMs. After a few days I told her I wanted her to stop and honor our prior agreement made last October. She said no, that I needed to deal with it. I was accused of being controlling and jealous. Even the ex-fiance posted some quote on facebook about the dangers of jealousy. 

One of his first facebook messages to her was reminiscing about them having sex on a boat many years ago. He made vague references to it as a "fishing trip" but the subtext was clear. Her response was that she "always liked fishing with him!" She has since confirmed there was no actual fishing going on. He also made another innappropriate remark to her, but deleted it before I saw it. 

I again asked her to cut off contact. She said no. She was tired of me "always getting my way." They were just friends, etc. 

After about a month, I had almost driven myself crazy with this. Finally I told her I just couldn't live like this. The basic message was if she continued to engage in this "friendship" I would have to leave. Even then, it took her another day to before she complied. Then, she unfriended him on facebook, but didn't block him. 

I am as sure as I can be that they have not seen each other and that this is not a PA. I do think it is an EA. I am almost certain she will contact him again.

I am wondering what I can do at this point. I am working on myself. I've stopped snooping (she knows I was doing it anyway.) My gut tells me she is just deleting messages now, but I can't prove it. 

Should I just let it play out and leave if she breaks no contact? Or should I be doing something to lessen the odds of a future problem. 

She refuses marraige counselling and has for years. 

Thanks for any help you can offer, and sorry for such a long intro.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

DO NOT EVER BE THE ONE TO LEAVE!! She leaves the home if it comes to it and you guys separate. You did nothing wrong. And yes, she is in deep into an EA. Gather as much intel as you can with VARs and keylogger on her computer and see your lawyer to get the D papers drawn up. See how she reacts when you have her served. Do not accept this disrespect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Oh, Shadow. Never underestimate the power of the first love.

I was my H's high school girlfriend -- we broke up, we both married other people, didn't get together until 30 yrs later when he was already divorced, but he's told me many times that if I had ever contacted him at all, he would have been out of there in a heartbeat.

I'm not saying that's what is happening here, and people here are always quick to jump on the infidelity train, but in your case? Yeah. I'd be worrying.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

How many chances will you give her? She has severe boundary issues and has shown you repeatedly she doesn't respect your wishes/concerns. The same way he axed her w/o any explanation when she cheated on him is what you should've done. I'm so sory you are going thru this but by not being firm, you've enabled the affair. Over and over again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

She has broken NC how many times? She needs hard consequences now before things go even further in the EA. From what it sounds like, she is starting to get deep in the fog with the lure of the OM....

I would be worried especially with how hard she is actively pursuing this guy. It's not him coming after her as much as she is going after him! 

You gotta stop this soon. Is the OM married or in a serious relationship? It may be time to out him to his sig. other if he has one.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

lamaga said:


> Oh, Shadow. Never underestimate the power of the first love.
> 
> I was my H's high school girlfriend -- we broke up, we both married other people, didn't get together until 30 yrs later when he was already divorced, but he's told me many times that if I had ever contacted him at all, he would have been out of there in a heartbeat.
> 
> I'm not saying that's what is happening here, and people here are always quick to jump on the infidelity train, but in your case? Yeah. I'd be worrying.


As a victim of my own fWW reconnecting with a HS from 30 yrs ago, Shadowboxer is past the point of worrying. His wife breaks NC time and again. It's divorce time, yes? In your own situation you admit if you had reconnected with him, he would have been in an affair with you no problem. So I don't see why you would think he should ONLY be worried.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

LordMayhem: Sounds like.


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## jinba (Apr 26, 2012)

I'd ask her what's missing in your relationship that makes her feel she has to seek out this "old love"? If she's feeling distant for some reason, best to find out now so that you can work on what's troubling her together. --- This may put a spin on things that she's not expecting - obviously asking her for NC isn't working. Read Divorce Busting once (at least I think that was the title) and one line really stuck with me - "stop doing what doesn't work". Get creative and get to the bottom of this before it's too late.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Sometimes, things don't have to be missing or a marriage doesn't have to be troubled for an affair to happen. Sometimes, its all about the cheater. In this case, this WW has been a serial cheater from way back. This may not even be her first affair.

Take a look at the dark side:

Affair Discussion Forum • View topic - Am I alone?


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## jinba (Apr 26, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> Sometimes, things don't have to be missing or a marriage doesn't have to be troubled for an affair to happen. Sometimes, its all about the cheater. In this case, this WW has been a serial cheater from way back. This may not even be her first affair.
> 
> Take a look at the dark side:
> 
> Affair Discussion Forum • View topic - Am I alone?


I don't disagree. I'm just thinking a different approach may bring different results because it seems he's not getting anywhere at the moment.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

lamaga said:


> Oh, Shadow. Never underestimate the power of the first love.
> 
> I was my H's high school girlfriend -- we broke up, we both married other people, didn't get together until 30 yrs later when he was already divorced, but he's told me many times that if I had ever contacted him at all, he would have been out of there in a heartbeat.
> 
> I'm not saying that's what is happening here, and people here are always quick to jump on the infidelity train, but in your case? Yeah. I'd be worrying.


LaMaga's right. In the book "Not Just Friends," (read it) there is a little chapter dedicated to "first loves" and whatnot. I think the affairs involving "first loves" can be some of the worst because there is already an emotional component/connection between the parties that automatically makes it an emotional affair when it starts going that way. The foundation has already been laid which makes it more intense, IMO.

Excerpt from the aforementioned book: 

Not "Just Friends": Rebuilding Trust and Recovering Your Sanity After Infidelity - Shirley Glass, Jean Coppock Staeheli - Google Books

This dude is not a friend of your marriage. You know that. Hard consequences are the only t hing that will get through to your wife. You saying that you have no doubt she will get in contact with him really says it all. Why are you so accepting of her poor behavior? Her detrimental behavior? Find your self-esteem and your dignity as a man and put your foot down, hard. A boundary w/o a consequence is not a boundary at all.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> Sometimes, things don't have to be missing or a marriage doesn't have to be troubled for an affair to happen. Sometimes, its all about the cheater. In this case, this WW has been a serial cheater from way back. This may not even be her first affair.


While that may be true, people can always improve their relationships/marriage. And not every affair occurs in a "good marriage." (OP, that comment is not directed towards your situation--just a general statement I am making). 

Nonetheless, former fiance needs to be out of the picture first and foremost so they can make that happen.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jinba said:


> I'm just thinking a different approach may bring different results because it seems he's not getting anywhere at the moment.


The different approach would be HARD consequences. Cause so far there haven't been any. At all.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Old flames burn the brightest. You made just about every mistake possible in your dealing with the matter at hand. She's definitely in an EA with her ex and if you're not careful it might go PA and you can kiss your 20-year marriage goodbye. (Same thing happened to me.)

See link below for a thread on how one guy handled a similar situation. (Also, your sister-in-law is no friend of your marriage.)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ressive-position-anyway-did-i-over-react.html


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

I hope you will follow through on your ultimatum. But, as bandit says, she moves, not you. You can serve her and still live there.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

She is reliving the excitement that was 20-25 years ago when she was young, carefree and screwing this guy on a boat.

EA for sure and if given the opportunity it will go PA.

Tell her that you cannot and do not want to control her, but you have enough self respect to not want a marriage where she does not respect you or have any sympathy for your feelings.

You seem to be hinting around things. Why not tell her straight up. No hints of hidden meanings. "Stop contact with him or I will divorce you. You cannot have both - so choose."

Then do it. It means nothing if she refuses to stop contact and you do not file for D.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Shadowboxer, I know all the advice being given runs counter to how you think you should resolve the situation with your wife. You have strangers from cyberspace telling you that you should divorce your wife of 20-years when all you wanted was advice on how to stop her from talking to the ex-fiance.

Well, less than six months ago, I was a happily married man. Sure, we had the usual marital problems that come after 20-plus years together. If I had gotten the advice that you're getting now, I probably would've also questioned it. Fast forward to today. I'm coming up on the one-month anniversary of my divorce. Not something that I saw coming. That's just it. Things like this move lightning fast. That's why you have to go on the offensive. You still have a chance. But like another poster stated, she's reliving her youth and thinking about what life might've been with the ex. You need to go on the offensive. So if it means filing for divorce (and meaning it) to get her to come out of fantasyland, then that's what you need to do.

Good luck.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You've learned that her agreements always get ignored and the contact has several times gone underground but deeper.

Each step of the way she has been choosing him more strongly over you. It might not have gone PA, but I bet there is a high chance it has gone to some sexing and possibly phone sex. It will eventually go PA the way he obviously is escalating the contact.

If you haven't deployed VARs I really think you shoud, because you know from experience it isn't over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Shadowboxer said:


> At that point, he encouraged her to not tell me she was going to see him, and that he was sure I could recover nicely for a day without her.


 When the other man (OM) encourages her to see you behind your back while you are recovering from surgery, this was proof beyond a shadow of a doubt to your wife that he was not a friend of the marriage and that his intentions were not good. She knew this yet stayed in contact, big red flag.



Shadowboxer said:


> Then, in spring 2011, she told me that I was right. His intentions weren't good and that she was ending all contact with him. That was that.


 She took a long time to acknowledge what you both already knew.



Shadowboxer said:


> By September I looked at the billing records and was shocked to see how many texts and phone calls they had been exchanging since late July. It was just about daily. They waited until I took the kids to soccer practice and then called each other. She initiated as often, or more, than him. They texted at night after I was asleep. They talked for hours one night when I was out of town, and only ended the call because I called her. She would text and call him while I was mowing the lawn, or when she ran an errand, etc. It was all very secret and it made me sick.
> 
> I confronted her in October. She said they were just friends and that I shouldn't worry, etc. She was sorry I was hurt, but didn't really acknoweldge she did anything wrong. She offerred to cut off contact (which she had alrady told me she had done the past spring). I told her that's what I wanted and she texted him a goodbye message that said I asked her to choose and she chose me.


 Even though she acknowledged that his intentions were not good, she went underground and stayed in contact behind your back. Why did this former fiancé dump her and break off the marriage with your wife again? That’s right because she was a cheater and she cheated on him.



Shadowboxer said:


> I confronted her in October. She said they were just friends and that I shouldn't worry, etc. She was sorry I was hurt, but didn't really acknoweldge she did anything wrong. She offerred to cut off contact (which she had alrady told me she had done the past spring). I told her that's what I wanted and she texted him a goodbye message that said I asked her to choose and she chose me.


 The worst kind of cheaters are the unremorseful ones.



Shadowboxer said:


> I again asked her to cut off contact. She said no. She was tired of me "always getting my way." They were just friends, etc.
> 
> After about a month, I had almost driven myself crazy with this. Finally I told her I just couldn't live like this. The basic message was if she continued to engage in this "friendship" I would have to leave. Even then, it took her another day to before she complied. Then, she unfriended him on facebook, but didn't block him.


 She is a repeat cheater and keeps sneaking around behind your back. No friendship would be so addictive but you already know that. Although there is debate as to if married people should have opposite sex friends. There is no debate that married people cannot have former lovers as friends. This is a basic marital boundary that almost everyone agrees on. The fact that she has a history of cheating makes this boundary even more required as she has proven that the “you can trust me” thing does not even remotely apply to her. 

Your actions to date have been all bark and no bite. If she is not already in contact with him, she will be. As a confirmed cheater she is just getting better at her craft. You must take stronger action and take it now. What you are doing now is not working. Insanity is often defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Your current course of action is insane.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Shadowboxer said:


> I am having a problem with my wife's repeated attempts to renew a friendship with her ex-fiance. I have already intervened and told her I am not comfortable with their "friendship," which seems to constantly push the boundaries. Right now, she says there is no contact. I don't entirely believe her, and I'm wondering about next steps.
> 
> Here is my story. Sorry, but it is a bit long. I've been with my wife for 20 years. We've been married 18 of those years. We have three kids, all in their teens.
> 
> Before she met me, my wife was engaged to another man. They were both young. *She cheated on him. He caught her and dumped her without any explanation.*



20 years later she's doing it again. Cheating.

Your turn to dump her without any explanation.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Unbelievable a woman would throw away 20 years, a husband and family just to feel young again. 

Divorce this idiot and let those two losers have each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

If the roles were reversed would your wife be accepting this type of behavior from you? No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change.
She has now shown you that she has very little respect for you and your marriage and believes you will accept anything anyway so their is nothing to lose for her. If you do not respect yourself then who will?


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## Shadowboxer (May 23, 2012)

Thanks for the very fast and honest responses. 

I have had trouble enforcing boundaries for a long time. Believe it or not, I have actually been trying to get better at it.

I agree that what I have been doing doesn't work. I want to make changes. I am relieved that so many here think that her behavior is sufficient for a divorce, even without a PA. 

I have a lot to think about and plan.

I really appreciate all the quick support.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> His trip happened to fall on a weekend that I would be recovering from a surgery, which she told him. At that point, he encouraged her to not tell me she was going to see him, and that he was sure I could recover nicely for a day without her.


Translates to: "Your husband is suffering? So what? He's recovering from surgery? Why should you care about that, ex-fiancée?" 

That remark was so totally inappropriate that your wife should have RAQed (Run Away! Quick!) from him.


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## Shadowboxer (May 23, 2012)

Also, according to my wife, her ex-fiance is married but has been seperated for several years. He apparently lacks the money to pay for the divorce. I have no idea if any of that is true.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Shadowboxer said:


> Also, according to my wife, her ex-fiance is married but has been seperated for several years. He apparently lacks the money to pay for the divorce. I have no idea if any of that is true.


Maybe you should tell his wife of his current interest in yours...

He could be using the whole "seperated" line to cheat on his current wife.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

aug said:


> 20 years later she's doing it again. Cheating.
> 
> Your turn to dump her without any explanation.


:iagree:

It clearly worked for her ex, now she's chasing him.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Shadowboxer said:


> Also, according to my wife, her ex-fiance is married but has been seperated for several years. He apparently lacks the money to pay for the divorce. I have no idea if any of that is true.


That is most likely bullsh*t. A lie he spins to her. Trust me, when someone wants to get a divorce, they will make it happen. One party doesn't even have to agree to the divorce and a judge will sign for it and grant the divorce no matter what. 



Shadowboxer said:


> I have had trouble enforcing boundaries for a long time. Believe it or not, I have actually been trying to get better at it.
> 
> I agree that what I have been doing doesn't work.


Get the book "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud-Townsend. You can get it at your library for free. Focus on the chapter with titled "The Boundary-Resistant Spouse" (that's what your wife is). You not backing up what you say with consequences is why this keeps happening.

You can tell someone you're not gonna put up with their bullsh*t all you want but if you dont actually DO anything about it, essentially you are tolerating their bad behavior.

Ya, mon.

So ... you need to start standing up for yourself AND following through with ACTIONS. Cause talk is cheap, baby!


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## Shadowboxer (May 23, 2012)

Over the years, during rough times (and there were many), I used to think that the ex had been smarter than me to see the warning signs and run for the hills before the "I do's" were exchanged. (I only recently learned he was cheated on). Meanwhile, I've been running on the same treadmill for years, wondering why the scenery isn't changing. 

I have a very bad habit of saying, "next time this happens, I'll . . ." Over and over.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Boundaries in Marriage - Henry Cloud, John Sims Townsend - Google Books


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

And you know 100 percent that this is the first time she cheated on you with him?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Shadowboxer said:


> Over the years, during rough times (and there were many), I used to think that the ex had been smarter than me to see the warning signs and run for the hills before the "I do's" were exchanged. (I only recently learned he was cheated on). Meanwhile, I've been running on the same treadmill for years, wondering why the scenery isn't changing.
> 
> I have a very bad habit of saying, "next time this happens, I'll . . ." Over and over.


Yeah, you do. And that is the problem right there. 

You want to stop running on the same treadmill? Stop doing it. Push the STOP button and get off the treadmill.


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## Shadowboxer (May 23, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Get the book "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud-Townsend. You can get it at yourlibrary for free. Focus on the chapter with titled "The Boundary-Resistant Spouse" (that's what your wife is). You not backing up with consequences is why this keeps happening.


I've read it, its excellent. I'll re-read that chapter though, clearly the lesson hasn't sunk in. I have been working on improving my boundaries for a while, I just suck at enforcing them with my wife. Her anger goes from 0 to 60 in miliseconds. I've learned to cope with that and don't get paralyzed.

The fact that she thinks she can get me to accept something this outrageous has also helped motivate me.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Shadow, like you, I had a "boundary-resistant spouse." And like you, I kept doing the same thing over and over again. It's exhausting dealing w/ the same sh*t day in and day out. 

The definition of insanity is.........


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## Shadowboxer (May 23, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> And you know 100 percent that this is the first time she cheated on you with him?


I am virtually certain. It is possible she cheated when we were dating in college. She went home for the summer and I know she saw him. She mentioned it and said with great pride that she had resisted his advances. Of course, back then I was the "soul mate." Today I am the jerk, when I'm not being the bully (for telling her that her "friendship" is destroying me and out marriage).


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

You need to MAN UP


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## Shadowboxer (May 23, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> You need to MAN UP


Agreed. And I've been reading through the material here. It's good stuff.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Shadowboxer said:


> I've read it, its excellent. I'll re-read that chapter though, clearly the lesson hasn't sunk in. I have been working on improving my boundaries for a while, I just suck at enforcing them with my wife. Her anger goes from 0 to 60 in miliseconds. I've learned to cope with that and don't get paralyzed.
> 
> The fact that she thinks she can get me to accept something this outrageous has also helped motivate me.


Decide you are ready to stop sucking at this. This is defeatest rhetoric. You are letting yourself off of the hook. Seriously. Stop trying and do it. 

Yes it is that easy. You are letting your own fear paralyze you. You are letting your wife of 20 years be taken from you by not standing your ground. She is disrespecting you and sees you as weak. Do not allow this.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Decide you are ready to stop sucking at this.


:rofl:

Funny, but true.

Entrop is right about "the fear paralyzing you." You need to lose that fear. Fast. Stop fearing losing her (easier said than done, I know). Once you stop fearing that you will lose her, you are in the right place.

You need to tell her straight up: 

_"Wife, the contact with your ex fiance is not ok under any circumstance. It has been detrimental to our marriage and very disrespectful to me and to our family. He does not want to be your friend. You know that. Do not try to pretend it's all been innocent. Because it hasn't. I will not live in an open marriage and will not tolerate this any longer. So the choice is yours: you can either end contact with you ex or you be sure I will no longer be in this relationship. Non-negotiable."_

Then she will complain/whine/call you controlling/say it's innocent, blah blah blah and you can tell her:

_"Stop. Just stop. Do not lie to me. You and I both know the truth. Your reconnecting with him has not been innocent. If the situation were reversed, you would feel the same way in wanting to protect our marriage, in not wanting me to have any contact with an ex fiance who has zero intention of being platonic. Now you know how I feel so the choice is yours. My stance on this is non-negotiable."_

You must say this with ABSOLUTE CONVICTION.

BE FIRM. BE CALM. BE COOL. Be confident. and walk away. Make sure when you say this to her you have *ZERO emotions *involved. Don't be emotional/angry cause it won't have the same effect. 

DO NOT NOT NOT get into an argument, do not not not negotiate, do not not not waiver from your stance.

Kapiche? 

Good.


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## Shadowboxer (May 23, 2012)

Kapiche. I'll let you know how it goes. I have delivered the message that I won't stick around if this continues, but I like the was you said it better.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

I definitely think you have to get better at not sending your wife mixed messages.First she goes NC at your request,but then when he fishes through FB you let her accept.Never mind your wife,what message does it send to the OM?That your wife can be available,as it appears it's something she wants,even if she previously said she chose you.He may think she just said that to placate you.The proof to him is that here she is,back in contact.

I'm sorry you find yourself in this position,but you have to firm up.The old saw applies here...say what you mean and mean what you say.Hope it doesn't go any deeper and I wish you well.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Your wife does not sound like a very nice person. Tell me again why you still want to be with her after what's she has put you through? I know that she is familiar and there's always the fear of the unknown, but I don't see her changing her cheating ways. I bet if you think long and hard about things that happened in the past you'll realize that she's done this before.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Sometimes. apparently nice people do nasty things.

People who are genuinely nice are very contrite. The people who were only pretending to be nice continue to do nasty things.

What is your wife doing? Genuine contrition or the nasty things?


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Shadowboxer said:


> She cheated on him. He caught her and dumped her without any explanation.


RED FLAG
Someone who has cheated on their fiance is likely to cheat again on another fiance or a husband. 
Cheating on a fiance is not the same as cheating on a boyfriend. 



> She really HATED her ex, or at least said she did.


Keep in mind that those who say they hate their EX is a code for _I still have feelings for them and I hate the fact that I still love them_ OR _I hate the fact that I couldn't be with them one more time._
I'd never like to get in a relationship with someone who is NOT *indifferent *towards their ex. _Hate_ is equal to _love_. Both of these feelings have impact and one who feels this way has less chances to look forward and not turn back their head. 

Your wife is being quite irresponsible and she's acting like a teenager.
If she doesn't give this an end than you better remind yourself that you deserve more than that.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Also, it's funny how he who once was cheated *on*, now asks to cheat *with *the woman who actually cheated on him.




It's like he doesn't know the taste of being cheated on. 
What a retard.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Shadowboxer said:


> I've read it, its excellent. I'll re-read that chapter though, clearly the lesson hasn't sunk in. I have been working on improving my boundaries for a while, I just suck at enforcing them with my wife. Her anger goes from 0 to 60 in miliseconds. I've learned to cope with that and don't get paralyzed.
> 
> The fact that she thinks she can get me to accept something this outrageous has also helped motivate me.


Stop allowing her to BULLY you. You're not a kid anymore and she's not your mother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Dude, here's the deal. You are being a wuss. You have drawn too many lines in the sand and backed away from all of them. Every time you take a stand then back off, she looses a little more respect for you. TELLING her that you mean what you say, will have zero effect, because she thinks you are weak. You have to PROVE yourself. Tell her, point blank that enough is enough, don't beg, or try to be understanding, or try to figure out what you did wrong or any of that sh*t. If she contacts him again, move her stuff outside and tell her to find another place to live. Stop whining and take action.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

pack her bags and give her a $100 dollars the next time she get angry with you. Ask her for his address so you can send her the D papers, cause you won't put up with her Sh** any longer. Tell her you have been unhappy in this marriage for a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnng time, and thank her for the opportunity to get out of it. I bet she will be SHOCKED speechless. As for you, YOU don't leave your house for nothing.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Shadowboxer said:


> Before she met me, my wife was engaged to another man. They were both young. She cheated on him. He caught her and dumped her without any explanation.
> 
> When I met her, she had dated a few other guys, but still had hang ups about being dumped by the ex-fiance. It took a year or so for us to work through those issues. She really HATED her ex, or at least said she did.


This is what jumped out at me. She is mad at her fiancé for dumping her because she cheated on him........Did I get this right? And how do you know this? Does she actually see nothing wrong with this sentiment that she told you this without remorse or introspection (ie, I know I shouldn't feel this way but.....)


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## Shadowboxer (May 23, 2012)

Last night I clearly expressed the boundary (end it or I'm gone). Anger ensued, she was annoyed that I brought it up again after she already told me she had ended communication with him. She swore there was no secret communication going on now. According to her, this is all my issue (jealousy, insecurity, etc.) BTW, I don't accept that this is my issue.

This morning she told me that the only time she thinks of her ex is when I bring him up. 

I am thinking that right now I will just have to keep a close eye to see if her conduct matches her words. She knows I'm checking and made a point to tell me the source of a cell phone call she took yesterday from the same state as the ex (it was one of wife's friends, an ally of mine on this issue, who previously told my wife that her ex was acting "creepy" and "stalking" her). If only she'd listen.

Wife is not too tech saavy, but can figure out how to delete messages and emails, empty electronic "trash", and delete browser history. She knows I look at cell phone billing to see who she texts and calls. 

She has an iphone that she uses all the time.

My life feels like a total mess though. I hate snooping and never did it to her until the ex showed up. She has snooped me (and falsely accused me of cheating) many times over the years. Double standard, as usual.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Shadowboxer said:


> She has an iphone that she uses all the time.



iphone, good! Backup up her iphone on iTunes. You can then read all her messages (I think even the deleted ones).

Do a google search on retrieving deleted iphone text messages. 


Take a look at this post.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Shadowboxer said:


> This morning she told me that the only time she thinks of her ex is when I bring him up.


If her lips moved when she told you this she's lying.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Shadowboxer said:


> Last night I clearly expressed the boundary (end it or I'm gone). Anger ensued, she was annoyed that I brought it up again after she already told me she had ended communication with him. She swore there was no secret communication going on now. According to her, this is all my issue (jealousy, insecurity, etc.) BTW, I don't accept that this is my issue.
> 
> *This morning she told me that the only time she thinks of her ex is when I bring him up. *
> 
> ...


Wait, she said that this morning? As in, after you talked about it LAST NIGHT? Did you bring it up first this morning? But, I have to say...good for you for telling her, point blank, him or me. Just hope she lives up to it.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Shadowboxer said:


> According to her, *this is all my issue (jealousy, insecurity, etc.) * BTW, I don't accept that this is my issue.


Typical line of cheaters who don't have any better argument. 


But you're right. Words mean nothing.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Once a cheater......


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> This is what jumped out at me. She is mad at her fiancé for dumping her because she cheated on him........Did I get this right? And how do you know this? Does she actually see nothing wrong with this sentiment that she told you this without remorse or introspection (ie, I know I shouldn't feel this way but.....)



A real sign of Narcissism. She cheats on him and is pissed he dumped her. Amazing how their minds work.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Her lack of remorse indicates she will be taking the affair underground. 

Get a keylogger and install it on her computer to catch what she's typing. It will be easy for her and her ex to set up a secret Facebook account you won't know about. 

Invest in a VAR (voice activated recorder) and velcro it under the front seat of her car to catch her making cell calls to him while she's driving. And definitely look into the I-Tunes thing to get the backups off her phone.


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## Shadowboxer (May 23, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Wait, she said that this morning? As in, after you talked about it LAST NIGHT? Did you bring it up first this morning? But, I have to say...good for you for telling her, point blank, him or me. Just hope she lives up to it.


Yes, she brought it up indirectly by pointing out that I have not been supportive of her recently (go figure) as she helps her mom recover from a major and dangerous surgery and as she goes back to graduate school. She said somehing like: "the things you have been bringing up lately are all about you, when I have all this other important stuff I have to deal with." I asked if she meant me bringing up her "friendship" with her ex. She replied by saying she only thinks about him when I bring him up. Except, I didn't bring him up this morning. She did. Twisted thinking.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Shadowboxer said:


> Yes, she brought it up indirectly by pointing out that I have not been supportive of her recently (go figure) as she helps her mom recover from a major and dangerous surgery and as she goes back to graduate school. She said somehing like: "the things you have been bringing up lately are all about you, when I have all this other important stuff I have to deal with." I asked if she meant me bringing up her "friendship" with her ex. She replied by saying she only thinks about him when I bring him up. Except, I didn't bring him up this morning. She did. Twisted thinking.


Deflection.


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## Shadowboxer (May 23, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> This is what jumped out at me. She is mad at her fiancé for dumping her because she cheated on him........Did I get this right? And how do you know this? Does she actually see nothing wrong with this sentiment that she told you this without remorse or introspection (ie, I know I shouldn't feel this way but.....)


This was back when we were dating, about 20 years ago. After about the third date she started talking about her ex and how he had wronged her. She was angry and bitter. She said he dumped her without explanation, implying that she had no clue why he left. For years, I thought (incorrectly) that he justt didn't see it working out between them and bolted.

Last fall (2011), after she told me she had cut it off with him, we had some long talks about her ex and why she was secretly communicating with him. In one of those conversations, I mentioned that he had cowardly dumped her many years ago, at which point she told me that she had actually cheated on him and now she knew what she had long suspected--he found out and couldn't deal with it and left. She says she had told me once, long ago that she had cheated on him. I very vaguely recall her telling me she had once cheated on a boyfriend, but I don't think I knew it was the fiance.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

He dumped her because she was cheating on him and she's angry about it? Serves her right. And she cheated on another boyfriend and now you. This is a clear pattern of behavior.

So how do you know she hasn't been cheating on you all these years and this latest affair is only the first one she had on you? Did she EVER feel bad about cheating on him and the other man? Because she doesn't seem remorseful about cheating on you, that's for sure.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Shadowboxer said:


> I very vaguely recall her telling me she had once cheated on a *boyfriend*, but I don't think I knew it was the *fiance*.




Had she told you she cheated on her fiance chances were you wouldn't have ignored this fact easily hence she decided to call him just a boyfriend.

And that's true. You ignored it.


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## Shadowboxer (May 23, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> He dumped her because she was cheating on him and she's angry about it? Serves her right. And she cheated on another boyfriend and now you. This is a clear pattern of behavior.
> 
> So how do you know she hasn't been cheating on you all these years and this latest affair is only the first one she had on you? Did she EVER feel bad about cheating on him and the other man? Because she doesn't seem remorseful about cheating on you, that's for sure.


I think there was no other man besides her ex fiance. I vaguely recall the conversation. It was one of those "have you ever . . .?" getting-to-know-you early in the relationship conversations. She asked if I'd ever cheated on anyone. (no) Then I asked her if she had and she said yes, on a boyfriend (I don't remember, but it seems like she neglected to mention the "boyfriend" was the ex fiance she was so broken up over, and I think I would remember that.)

She expressed remorse then, and again last fall. Something to the effect of having really learned her lesson back then, all the more reason for me not to worry now.


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## Shadowboxer (May 23, 2012)

A lot of posts have asked if I am sure this is the first time she has cheated. 

No, I am not sure of anything right now. It is possible. I'm not sure if there is anyway to find out at this point anyway.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Shadowboxer said:


> She expressed remorse then, and again last fall. Something to the effect of having really learned her lesson back then, all the more reason for me not to worry now.


Merely saying sorry isn't remorse. It's guilt for being caught. If she was truly remorseful, she would be compassionate for your feelings. Instead, she wants to sweep this neatly under the rug. I'm sure you're getting the "get over it already" attitude from her. It takes on average 2-5 years to heal from a betrayal like this, but she's already trying to rug sweep. Look at this table, it's a good guide.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

I agree with the rug sweeping theory. It just sounds like she rug swept the whole thing, even to herself when her ex-fiance dumped her!!

Be careful and stay watchful. Sorry you are in this situation but it definately sounds like she hasn't taken any responsibility for her actions. If she owned up to the cheating, she wouldn't have hid it from you for almost 20 years!


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Shadowboxer said:


> She has an iphone that she uses all the time.


That`s to your advantage.
Nothings ever really deleted when an iPhone is involved.





> My life feels like a total mess though. I hate snooping and never did it to her until the ex showed up. She has snooped me (and falsely accused me of cheating) many times over the years. Double standard, as usual.


It sucks you have to do it but at this point it seems to be a necessity for awhile at least.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

tacoma said:


> My life feels like a total mess though. I hate snooping and never did it to her until the ex showed up. She has snooped me (and falsely accused me of cheating) many times over the years. Double standard, as usual.


You do realize that cheaters usually accuse their spouses of cheating on them to rationalize their own cheating. Well she's cheating on me so I'm not doing anything wrong.

It's not a double standard to a cheater it's a way to justify what they're going is ok since it's an eye for an eye.


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## jh52 (Apr 29, 2012)

Sounds like she is in a 'fog" and now that he has contacted after all these years -- he has forgiven her for cheating on him. Now he is separated -- and knows 1st hand that she is capable of cheating -- and using a sports analogy -- is playing a game with her and soon he will apply the full court press. 

If she is not careful and end the relationship with the ex once and for all -- you will be the bf of 20 years ago. She may have feelings that she never had closure -- don't understand that -- since it was 20 years ago -- but I don't understand alot of things in life when people make decisions that affects others and the disaster they create and the lifes they destroy.

Good luck !!


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Set hard, distinct boundaries with her and tell her exactly what you will do if she crosses those boundaries. Then if she does, follow through with your promises. 

You have shown alot of weakness so far. Fulfilling your promises will turn that around. 

Remember, all you have done is caused her a little setback. She will find a way, or already has, to get in touch with him. You need to play the game smart and find out what she is up to. Take your time, gather as much damning intelligence as you can, and when you have a cut and dry case, slam the evidence on the table in front of her and follow through with your promises.


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## Shadowboxer (May 23, 2012)

Yesterday afternoon her ex sent her the facebook message I've been expecting. First, he sent her a facebook "poke." About two hours later, he sent her a message that asked, "have I been unfriended?"

She texted me that she had received his message and that she was ignoring it. 

I asked her if she thought she should just go ahead and block him since she was planning on ignoring his messages anyway. She said it wasn't necessary and didn't block him and that he would eventually "get mad" and stop contacting her. But, that hasn't been his pattern. He backs off for a few weeks then fishes.

At very least, she is leaving the door cracked on this. I told her again last night that I won't live with this. Her response was just an icy stare.


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## Shadowboxer (May 23, 2012)

Also, I looked through her iphone and his contact information is in there, including his phone number and email. 

She recently downloaded the updated facebook messenger app for the iphone, which I understand can be used as a substitute for standard texting. Does anyone know if all communications sent through the messenger app show up in her on-line facebook messages window? Or do some messegages/texts sent directly to the cell phone bypass the facebook messages in box?


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Shadowboxer said:


> Also, I looked through her iphone and his contact information is in there, including his phone number and email.
> 
> She recently downloaded the updated facebook messenger app for the iphone, which I understand can be used as a substitute for standard texting. Does anyone know if all communications sent through the messenger app show up in her on-line facebook messages window? Or do some messegages/texts sent directly to the cell phone bypass the facebook messages in box?


I have recently downloaded this app as well (for an Android phone) and yes, all messages that appear on my phone appear on the computer. In fact, it is like chat - I can have my browser on my computer open to Facebook and when I send/receive messages on my phone through that app I see them refresh and appear on Facebook almost immediately. 

So if you have access to her Facebook, and she is chatting using her phone, you would be able to see real time what she is talking about with people.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Shadowboxer said:


> Yesterday afternoon her ex sent her the facebook message I've been expecting. First, he sent her a facebook "poke." About two hours later, he sent her a message that asked, "have I been unfriended?"
> 
> She texted me that she had received his message and that she was ignoring it.
> 
> ...


Shadowboxer, that icy stare was hatred. You are in the way of her happiness. Quit being a doormat.


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## jh52 (Apr 29, 2012)

Shadowboxer said:


> Also, I looked through her iphone and his contact information is in there, including his phone number and email.
> 
> She recently downloaded the updated facebook messenger app for the iphone, which I understand can be used as a substitute for standard texting. Does anyone know if all communications sent through the messenger app show up in her on-line facebook messages window? Or do some messegages/texts sent directly to the cell phone bypass the facebook messages in box?


This maybe a dumb question -- but what name is his contact information under in her Iphone. Is it his real name -- or something made up ??


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

Shadowboxer said:


> I asked her if she thought she should just go ahead and block him since she was planning on ignoring his messages anyway. She said it wasn't necessary and didn't block him and that he would eventually "get mad" and stop contacting her.


This is a bunch of crap, there's no reason not to block him, it’s not like it cost money or takes any effort or anything. You are right; she is just leaving the door open for him. She doesn’t want to block him because she is afraid if he sees that then he might not ever try to contact again. 

Log on to iCloud and you might be able to edit her contact list.

If she was serious she would have volunteered to remove his contact info. This is a big red flag telling you that you won’t be able to trust her. She is just waiting for the dust to settle to start up contact again (you know she will, its just a matter of when).


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

REMAIN FIRM. 

Do not waiver on this.

If she is serious about your marriage, she will block the guy who is trying to come between you. You already know what the score is. People don't reminisce about the great sex they had on a boating trip if they are being true to their partner. It's totally inappropriate. NIP THIS IN THE BUD. Her leaving the door open is Bullsh!t.


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## Shadowboxer (May 23, 2012)

jh52 said:


> This maybe a dumb question -- but what name is his contact information under in her Iphone. Is it his real name -- or something made up ??


Its under his real name.


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## jh52 (Apr 29, 2012)

Shadowboxer said:


> Its under his real name.


Not saying that having him as a contact is right but at least from appearance sake -- she isn't hiding it.

Now the question is -- are they communicating another way ??


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

why did you ask her that. you was suppose to tell her to block him. what about this don't you understand ?? the game has changed, an you was suppose to be making changes in you. you keep threating and not standing your ground. Did you tell her that her bags will be packed the 1st time she respond to him ?? NO, you keep threating to run away. Why do you feel as if you don't deserve the house you payed for ?? Or are you really looking for a reason to leave. If thats the case, then just leave. If you want to use this as the reason to finally strike a blow at her image, hey more power to you. But, until you learn to do a better balance between your beta an alpha, this is the kind of woman you will attract. So this is what you do, go on her profile and unfriend him and block him. then msg. him you will be coming to see him, then go take her phone, go to contact and delete all his info. Otherwise, you might as well start looking for an apartment. I like how you are trying to make a stand, but you have to carry thru, and I feel she is going to answer him like the posters say. Hell, you know it yourself if you want to be honest with yourself. So you might as well put a plan together what will happen after. Why else would she download the app. I have the Atrix 4G and its easy to msg. in facebook. Its a good thing she's not tech savy, so she maybe don't know you can see what she is doing.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> My life feels like a total mess though. I hate snooping and never did it to her until the ex showed up. She has snooped me (and falsely accused me of cheating) many times over the years. Double standard, as usual.


Projection


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Shadowboxer said:


> Yesterday afternoon her ex sent her the facebook message I've been expecting. First, he sent her a facebook "poke." About two hours later, he sent her a message that asked, "have I been unfriended?"
> 
> She texted me that she had received his message and that she was ignoring it.
> 
> ...


Why did you tell her anything? Except go find someplace else to live. What part of "taking action', do you not understand? You warned her about keeping communication with him, that communication is still there, so you take action. Your wife doesn't respect you at all, right? So you might as well show some backbone, and maybe she will regain a little respect for you. You are afraid of her, aren't you?


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Shadowboxer said:


> Also, I looked through her iphone and his contact information is in there, including his phone number and email.
> 
> She recently downloaded the updated facebook messenger app for the iphone, which I understand can be used as a substitute for standard texting. Does anyone know if all communications sent through the messenger app show up in her on-line facebook messages window? Or do some messegages/texts sent directly to the cell phone bypass the facebook messages in box?


Dude, What is the matter with you? If you are this frightened of her , then why don't you let her have her affair, and you can stay home and be the obedient little hubby. LOOK AT THIS LAST POST!!! Instead of doing everything she can to end the affair, what is she doing? She is trying to find ways to hide it better. You found out about facebook messenger, but there are others, and it's only a matter of time until she finds one that you won't know about. Talking to her hasn't helped has it, whining and begging hasn't either. Until you man-up and stop being scared of your wife and stand up for your rights, you are lost and she undoubtedly will have another affair, or continue this one. I'm sorry for being tough, but you need it .


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

ArmyofJuan said:


> This is a bunch of crap, *there's no reason not to block him, it’s not like it cost money or takes any effort or anything.* You are right; she is just leaving the door open for him. She doesn’t want to block him because she is afraid if he sees that then he might not ever try to contact again.
> 
> Log on to iCloud and you might be able to edit her contact list.
> 
> If she was serious she would have volunteered to remove his contact info. This is a big red flag telling you that you won’t be able to trust her. She is just waiting for the dust to settle to start up contact again (you know she will, its just a matter of when).


The best part about blocking on FB? If you check it daily (let's face it, you will do that for awhile), you will know if she ever unblocks him... You can't block someone for 48 hours if you choose to UNblock them at some point. So, if she blocks today, and unblocks tomorrow...she can't block again until Tuesday. And, if you check during that 48 hour window, she will be busted. Yes, I know this from experience because I blocked my husband's fOW on both his FB and mine (he told me to do it, for my sanity). I unblocked on mine, briefly, and found out about the waiting period lol. She was blocked again ASAP.

My point is that you will know if she unblocks him...and that would tell you a lot!


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