# Ladies, please don't give us hints



## shy_guy

If you haven’t been married long enough, or have never picked up on this about men, let me put it very succinctly for you so you will never question it again: Please don’t give us hints. We don’t catch them. You threw it at us, but we didn’t even know you threw anything. You expect us to be in tune – we’re not. You expect our mind to work a certain way – it doesn’t. Hints are extremely frustrating to us, and if you expect us to pick up on it, it’s going to lead you into a lot of frustration with us. I’m sorry as I realize this probably doesn’t fit your romantic ideas, but that’s just how it is with us men in general.

You want to know just how bad we are? My wife had a certain little kink she wanted from me for years. I posted the story in the “Sex in Marriage” forum, if you’re really interested in it, PM me and I’ll give you the link to the story. For more than 20 years, she gave me hints, and if you read the story, you’ll probably wonder how she could have possibly been more obvious. For 20 years she lived without it because I didn’t know she wanted that. It's also unusual for her because she knows better than to try to hint to me. Giving this to her required me to overcome a huge inhibition – one I would have never overcome unless I knew she wanted that. When I knew what she wanted, I was able to overcome it just for her – my lady has that big of an effect on me. 

I have read so many ladies on these boards in the last few weeks who say they feel neglected or rejected. My first question is whether or not they have explicitly talked with their husbands about their feelings of rejection or neglect. I’ll grant that some men are never going to put their ladies where they need to be in the priorities list, but unless you tell him you feel neglected or rejected, there's no chance he's going to know and he never has a chance to get it right. He will not pick up on your hints. 

I know you can make the argument that “I tried to tell my husband … “ but let me give you a little idea about how it works with me. I’m someone who REALLY loves my lady. I WANT her to be happy. I mean I REALLY WANT her to be happy. I want her to thrive and not just live, to enjoy life to its fullest and look back with no regrets, and no dreams unfulfilled. Still, I miss her hints. If she lets it go until she is frustrated, then when she talks to me, at first, my passion will rise to match the passion she puts into her words. (This is called arguing, if you haven’t caught that just yet.) If she tells me before she is frustrated, then usually, I listen without passion, so we don’t argue about it.

Even if we argue, you can bet that the emotion and passion of the argument will pass soon. When it passes, I still have the message. Now, I feel absolutely terrible, and this isn’t necessarily a bad thing – it’s part of my love for her. I never thought my lady felt neglected or frustrated. Now that I know, my mind becomes very busy. All that mental energy that you see that makes me sometime seem distant, preoccupied or like I’m somewhere else? That energy that makes me delay my answers to you and makes you think I’m not listening? That energy is present while I’m working, running, working out, whatever I’m doing that next day. My mind is very busy working on this particular problem. What did I miss? How do I make it better? What does she really want? How do I let her know she is loved? How do I make up that I didn’t know she wanted <insert favorite present here> for her birthday? I’m a problem solver, so this is how my mind works.

Maybe I’ll go back to talk again after I’ve had some time to think. I may start asking “What do you really want?” I’m not condemning when I ask this. Think about it. If I was expert enough to actually innovate in this area, you would have never felt neglected in the first place. Teach me how to help you, please! This is what I’m really asking. If you start telling me and I answer with, “But I did X, Y, and Z,” I’m not telling you I’m faultless, nor am I saying you’re selfish. What I’m saying is that I honestly thought I was doing what you are asking. Please understand that and tell me how this is different so I can understand it. Maybe you could start with, “Yes, I remember X, Y, and Z, and that was nice, but what it lacked was … “ I may ask questions about whether or not you are thinking about me, and may ask if you are being selfish. I usually try to avoid these questions, but I sometimes need to evaluate what’s right in these areas too. When we’re through with this conversation, even though I made promises, I’m probably going to have to retreat again and think. I want to get this right – I REALLY want to get this right. 

Okay, if you asked for something romantic, I hope you gave me some real suggestions. For example, if you think it would be romantic for me to wash your hair for you, I hope you told me “It would be really nice if you sometimes just took time and washed my hair.” Don’t just tell me “Oh, I don’t know. Just be creative.” Think about it again. If I was expert enough in this area to actually innovate like you are asking me to do, you would never have felt neglected or frustrated. Now, when you gave me those suggestions, I’m going to put my mind to doing it for you, but think again about my level of expertise. I’m going to start with what you suggested – I’m going to try to find a time when it will be nice to wash your hair for you. The first time I do this is my first time to ever do this. Don’t expect me to be an expert at it. In fact, expect me to be clumsy and awkward this first time. If you tell me what you like, and what I did that made it nice, then I’ll do that and repeat that, and I’ll think about how I can improve on what I did. So we get past this first time, and the next time I do it for you, I’ll be better. I need to learn and become more skilled, but you also need to help me learn and not expect me to start out as an expert.

After I’ve been able to work through a few of your ideas about what is romantic, then maybe I can begin to innovate and come up with some ideas of my own. However; don’t count on my ideas matching your ideas. If I have an idea and try to carry through, it is nice if you can enjoy it, but if you don’t, please tell me what would be better. Please don’t expect that I suddenly got it, and you won’t need to tell me any more. Please continue to give me ideas by telling me “It would be nice if you would sometimes … “ Don’t revert back to giving me hints and expecting me to catch them – just expect that I’m not going to catch them, and I’m not going to know what you want unless you tell me. 

I’ve taught my daughters this since a young age. My younger daughter is getting married next month. When she talks to me, I think she’s got this one down. I’m happy about that – it gives her a much greater chance for happiness if she just realizes that she needs to tell him what she wants – not hint. 

You ladies are a mystery to us sometimes, and you don’t stop being a mystery even though we’ve been married a long time. That’s part of the excitement of being with you to be honest, but truly, we need you to know that you’re a bit of a mystery to us, and when we want to know what you really like or want, we need you to tell us. We don’t want you to feel rejected, neglected, lonely, etc. But in order to help you not feel that way, we first need you to open up to us and talk to us honestly. And when you think of what you want, you need to remember one more important point: We also need to feel important, and we need you to invest yourself in us sometimes. If you always want us to give, and you don’t give back, then soon enough, we, like you, will become empty and have nothing left to give.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

i agree with this.
have something to say?
say it.


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## EleGirl

I agree with this as well. Unfortunately, some men do not care enough to act on what their wife tells them even if she is crystal clear about what she wants, needs.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

EleGirl said:


> I agree with this as well. Unfortunately, some men do not care enough to act on what their wife tells them even if she is crystal clear about what she wants, needs.


this is true too.
sometimes we need a knock in the head as well. 

:scratchhead: *ouch*


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## DanF

I agree with the OP.
We are stupid. We try, but there is a lot of stuff we just don't understand, never have and never will.
We can think up some romantic stuff on our own, but if you want something specific, ask and be straight out about it.


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## Stryker

Stupid Men...Stupid Women , who do not understand their Stupid Men...

Be just Pro -Active in Interactions...for Apt Communication ..women assume or complain.., that Men shud Know...and they , women usually never try to know Men or whether, that Men have understood them.


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## Catherine602

I know my husband loves me and cares that I am happy. However, sometimes he does not listen! I get frustrated when I have to repeat myself 2 or 3 times. 

I'll add to your advice - men need to ramp up their listening skills. 

My husband and I joke about it. The first time I ask is a trail ballon, the 2nd a warning shot the third is on the money. 

Depending on the personalities of the parties involved, the frustration builds to resentment over the years and becomes a major problem. 

If the man is not paying attention, he is confused when his wife begins to ignore him when he abruptly remembers she is there for something he wants. 

My advice - ladies be explicit, watch tone of voice. Men, listen to your wife, it hurts when we seem to be selectively ignored.


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## shy_guy

You know, Catherine and EleGirl, these threads mostly give men a chance to talk because the OP is a man . The OP here thinks it would be a good idea if some of you ladies who are good writers would also start threads that give the ladies a chance to talk to us. Are there things you want to tell us?


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## Enchantment

shy_guy said:


> I’m a problem solver, so this is how my mind works.


I'm sure that there are a lot of women who don't really know what they want yet. Sometimes they have to grow in these things internally first, before they are at a point where they can be verbalized and then take flight. For example, for me, I have had certain inhibitions to overcome, but I really have to work through those inside myself for awhile first, before I allow them to take flight with my H. 

A lot of men are problem solvers by nature, as you pointed out about yourself. And a lot of women are more process oriented by nature. Myself, for example, am more process oriented. For instance, it's more in my nature to try and give my kids the 'tools' to be able to figure certain things out on their own. I probably don't treat my H that much differently - and actually it is a whole lot sweeter when he figures out these things on his own - as it means he is being very observant.  If you have to constantly harp on your husband about what romantic things you want, it can become a turn-off for both.

My H sounds a bit like Catherine's. He is generally a very poor listener - he even admits this, so that does help that he acknowledges it. So, even if I communicate with him, he often doesn't really hear. Even if I put things in plain and simple words sometimes - it takes many, many -often frustrating - attempts before there's understanding. That does make it doubly frustrating - as neither hints nor plain language work well stometimes.

I agree with Catherine - learning to listen to your partner is a great skill to cultivate. It is something that you can empower yourself to do. And as I have noted before - active listening involves more than just your ears - it also involves your eyes in watching and observing as well, and your heart - to be open and willing.


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## Catherine602

Ooookay. 

But The title implied that you were posting advice to women. 

Just read don't respond?

I meant to post that I don't want to turn into a she said he said and deluge the message. 

This is a good topic, might both men and women enter into the exchange? 

People are are a puzzle. We say want a thing, like clear communication let say, but with one proviso. It should be on a topic in which we have a vested interest. Ok over and out. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## shy_guy

Enchantment, The point about us being poor listeners is very good and one I think is probably relevant. I can describe in a lot of detail how my own mental processes work that will make me appear to not be a good listener as well - at least some times. I'm not sure how interested you might be in that, so let me know. 

What I'm more interested in would be suggestions from bright ladies such as you. First, you may need to define for me what you mean by "harp on him." Do you mean you have to repeat because he's not catching it the first time? Or do you mean that you dislike having to tell him what you find romantic because you want him to figure it out.

If it is that you don't like to repeat, then I fully understand. If you mean that you don't want to have to tell him, and want him to figure it out, then I can see a deadlock developing here especially if we don't know, but you don't want to tell us. How do we resolve the deadlock?

I would like to think I would solve this by being observant, but I find I often observe the wrong thing, or probably more correctly, I misinterpret what I am observing. One of the things I do is to go onto sites like this and learn what other ladies like, and just as expected, I learn a lot. As a final validation, I ask my wife about such things, and when I find that she likes them, I make plans for these things with her. The only problem with this is that it de-personalizes it somewhat for me. I'm glad I found something, but the things she tells me she likes of her own accord will ALWAYS trump any ideas I got from such ladies on the internet - even from ladies such as you. If I don't get the ideas from her, where else would I go? If she didn't talk to me about them, and I didn't have a source such as you ladies, I would have no ideas. 

There are a few things I have found along the way that have turned into regular romantic encounters, but these usually had very practical and unromantic beginnings. One example is when my wife fell and broke her foot - 6 fractures in 3 bones ... pins, wires, surgeries, the whole mess to get her foot back put back together. As she began to heal, I needed to massage her foot as part of the therapy. I took on this task, and discovered she liked the massages. Since she liked them, I extended it to both feet, and continued it long after she needed therapy. A few years later, she was diagoned as borderline diabetic (the people of her nationality are eaten up with diabetes despite the fact that they are not obese. My wife is definitely NOT obese. she is quite fit.) I became even more diligent with the massages because I want to be extra vigilant in helping her to maintain good circulation in her feet so she doesn't lose any of those beautiful toes, and I extended the massages to her hands as well. She's not in danger of any of that now, but I just want to be doubly sure and do my part to make sure it never becomes a danger. The romantic part of massaging her feet and legs is very enjoyable to me as well to her.

It took a **** broken foot for me to figure out she liked to have her feet massaged!!! WHY??? It's not that I don't love her - I dote on her and always have. Why does my mind not work in these areas and why do I not pick up on them? I honestly don't know. I actually get aggravated at myself for not picking up on them.

She gets treated regularly to other things she has told me she finds romantic. I just need her to tell me what those things are.


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## shy_guy

Catherine602 said:


> Ooookay.
> 
> But The title implied that you were posting advice to women.
> 
> Just read don't respond?
> 
> I meant to post that I don't want to turn into a she said he said and deluge the message.
> 
> This is a good topic, might both men and women enter into the exchange?
> 
> People are are a puzzle. We say want a thing, like clear communication let say, but with one proviso. It should be on a topic in which we have a vested interest. Ok over and out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, no, no. I didn't mean don't respond at all. I absolutely think women should engage in the dialogue here! PLEASE DO engage in the dialogue.

I was thinking with the suggestion that there are probably things you ladies really want to say to us, and I'm not the person to start a thread on that. I started a thread on what it does to us to have hints instead of direct communication. If you had something you wanted to tell us, what would it be?


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## EleGirl

Shy_Guy,

You sound like a real sweetheart. I hope your wife feels lucky to have you just as you seem to feel lucky to have her.

What are things that I would tell guys? Here's one. Spend at least 15 hours a week with your wife doing date-like things. This would be just the two of you... walking and holding hands, having coffee and talking to each other one or two weekly dates.

When it comes to the weekly dates. Treat them as real dates. Where you plan them, get the babysitter, etc. This shows her that YOU want to take her out. It's romantic.

What I would like if my husband were listening is for him to plan one date and I do the next. It gives each of us a chance to treat the other as though we were still dating.


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## Catherine602

Can you give an example of how you misinterpret? For instance what do you hear Vs what the other person said. 

Maybe it's that I think that I am being clear but I its not clear for him. Another words I am speaking womenglish to a man who speaks menenglish. He seems to listen, he looks at me and answers appropriately but I am never sure what he heard. I am tempted to ask him to repeat what I said but Mr C does not like to be treated like one of the kids. So I just hope for the best. 

It is funny how he interprets what I say. An example - I forgot to get something from the grocery store to bake cookie for the kids school on Mon. It was Sat and he was going out so I asked him to pick it up for me. He came back home with out it. I said oh you forgot the ..., he said no I didn't your said you needed it for Mon so I'll pick it up Sun. 

I didnt mention that I wanted to bake Sat so I wouldn't rush on Sun. I couldn't get mad, I just had to laugh. It's really funny. 

I guess it would help to tell us how to be explicit. I think some women think they are being clear but it clear to them not to him. 

BTW I don't think men are stupid. They are very difficult for me to decode sometimes. I am getting better but at times the miscommunication between myself and my husband makes me think that when I do understand him it is because even random shots hit the target sometimes. ;8}
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

Oh this is common for me. I have a difficult time talking about what I like when we make love. I want to say do that again I love it. He sometimes ask me open ended questions that require me to express what I want. I told him that I have a hard time talking about it. I asked to give me a list and I'll chose. 

He can't understand why I can't say it but I can chose it. For men who have wives who are like me - I love sex but I am inhibited - try giving your wife a list of 3 items to choose from rather than open ended questions. 

That one thing I would like my husband to do. I don't think he understands so he forgets. I can not explain why but that works for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

Catherine602 said:


> Can you give an example of how you misinterpret? For instance what do you hear Vs what the other person said.
> 
> Maybe it's that I think that I am being clear but I its not clear for him. Another words I am speaking womenglish to a man who speaks menenglish. He seems to listen, he looks at me and answers appropriately but I am never sure what he heard. I am tempted to ask him to repeat what I said but Mr C does not like to be treated like one of the kids. So I just hope for the best.
> 
> It is funny how he interprets what I say. An example - I forgot to get something from the grocery store to bake cookie for the kids school on Mon. It was Sat and he was going out so I asked him to pick it up for me. He came back home with out it. I said oh you forgot the ..., he said no I didn't your said you needed it for Mon so I'll pick it up Sun.
> 
> I didnt mention that I wanted to bake Sat so I wouldn't rush on Sun. I couldn't get mad, I just had to laugh. It's really funny.
> 
> I guess it would help to tell us how to be explicit. I think some women think they are being clear but it clear to them not to him.
> 
> BTW I don't think men are stupid. They are very difficult for me to decode sometimes. I am getting better but at times the miscommunication between myself and my husband makes me think that when I do understand him it is because even random shots hit the target sometimes. ;8}
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl: Yep that sounds familiar


I have a really bad cold/flu. So I asked my husband to get me some Mucinex while he was out yesterday. I asked him to not get me the liquid because I hate the taste of those syrups. I was very clear. So he came home with ... you guessed it... with the liquid. Why... I think all he heard of my request was " blah blah blah *Mucinex* blah blah blah *Liquid* blah blah blah "

No I did not complain when he handed me the bottle of goop... I’m taking it. It tastes terrible. At least I have something to help me through this.


Sigh :scratchhead:


I only wish this nonsense was the worst of our problems


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## shy_guy

EleGirl said:


> Shy_Guy,
> 
> You sound like a real sweetheart. I hope your wife feels lucky to have you just as you seem to feel lucky to have her.
> 
> What are things that I would tell guys? Here's one. Spend at least 15 hours a week with your wife doing date-like things. This would be just the two of you... walking and holding hands, having coffee and talking to each other one or two weekly dates.
> 
> When it comes to the weekly dates. Treat them as real dates. Where you plan them, get the babysitter, etc. This shows her that YOU want to take her out. It's romantic.
> 
> What I would like if my husband were listening is for him to plan one date and I do the next. It gives each of us a chance to treat the other as though we were still dating.


The walks are something we do, and always holding hands or arms around each other. Tea is something we do, but the date nights? That's brilliant! And I never thought of it. See what I mean? At our stage in life, the kids no longer need a babysitter (Only one is still at home even). I like the idea of alternating on planning it, too. 

Thank you


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## EleGirl

shy_guy said:


> The walks are something we do, and always holding hands or arms around each other. Tea is something we do, but the date nights? That's brilliant! And I never thought of it. See what I mean? At our stage in life, the kids no longer need a babysitter (Only one is still at home even). I like the idea of alternating on planning it, too.
> 
> Thank you


You are so welcome.

Does your wife like to dress up? A lot of women do but never get a chance to as our culture has become so casual. So if she likes to dress up, make sure some of those dates give her a chance to really get prettied up. Where she can buy a new dresss and feel like the bell of the ball. Some of us women really like that stuff.


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## shy_guy

Catherine602 said:


> Can you give an example of how you misinterpret? For instance what do you hear Vs what the other person said.


Let me give you the process, then you can probably guess where it short-circuits. Please forgive me since I am in R&D in the computer software business ... I get so bogged down in details and processes sometimes ... But before I get started, let me define one term: For us, a buffer is a small amount of memory that holds a small amount of information when it comes in faster than it can be processed, or if it needs to be held for a short time because something else is processing.

The way my mind actually works when I'm listening to someone is something I've wondered about. I don't know if this is normal male processing, or because I have an attention problem, or if this is uniquely me, but here's what happens.

Thoughts run through my mind MUCH faster than I can speak them. It becomes like a type of mental panorama because I switch between thoughts and tasks very rapidly. Even when I'm focused on one task, several other tasks and thoughts find time to process in my mind literally between steps in the task I'm supposed to be focusing on. 

It literally is so fast that I have found that my comprehension actually increases if I increase the speed in video playbacks that we watch. I retain the most if the video plays back at 1.5 times the original speed. The reason is that my mind doesn't have time to wander between words. 

This rapid switching between tasks is a part of what makes me a good problem solver, and gives me success in research. My mind switches between sometimes unrelated tasks so fast that sometimes it juxtaposes two ideas, and suddenly, the light comes on and I have a newly developing concept or a newly found connection on a problem. I don't think it's random because it is too consistent, but I don't have a complete explanation on how my mind juxtaposes the two thoughts to make this new connection. I've found this description to resonate with some of my colleages as they say they are very much like me in the actual mechanics of their thoughts.

Now take this mental process and put someone into it who begins talking to me. There seems to be a buffer between my ears and my mind. It won't hold much, but it will literally hold a sentence or a question. When someone speaks to me and I am in my cognitive processing mode, their question goes into that mental buffer - I hear it, but I didn't understand it at the moment it was spoken. When the current flurry of task switching in my mind slows just a bit, that question or sentence gets processed, and then I understand what was said a few seconds earlier ... or at least I THINK I understand it. I think this may be a place where the short-circuiting comes in. It may be that it gets scrambled a bit in my "buffer," and when I get the chance to understand it, I get it in a little bit of a modified state. It also may be that my mind, outside of conscious control, shortens it down to the basic keywords like EleGirl described with the cough syrup ... I'm not sure here ... I'll have to think on it some more. The phenomenon I'm talking about causes a delay between the time I'm asked a question and the time I answer. My wife and I jokingly call this my "5 second delay."

If I'm walking with my wife, I can completely focus on what we're talking about, and I don't seem to have the mental flurries that make it difficult for me to respond. However; if I've been sitting and thinking or working for a while, if she comes in and talks to me at that point, there is a guaranteed occurrence of my 5 second delay. If we're sitting over a cup of tea together, then it may happen, and it may not - depends on what else is going on in my mind, and it's not something that I just "focus and snap out of it." So as you can guess, I do my best listening while we're walking together.


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## shy_guy

EleGirl said:


> You are so welcome.
> 
> Does your wife like to dress up? A lot of women do but never get a chance to as our culture has become so casual. So if she likes to dress up, make sure some of those dates give her a chance to really get prettied up. Where she can buy a new dresss and feel like the bell of the ball. Some of us women really like that stuff.


She would like that. That's another great tip.


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## EleGirl

Shy_guy,

The way you describe your mind working is the mind of a very intelligent person. The mind of the average person does not work like that. Your mind is asynchronous. I think that the mind of the average person is much more synchronous. 

I’m a woman. My mind works like yours. I know my husband’s mind does as well. This is not a male vs female phenomenon. I have that 5 second delay that you talk about. Some people think I’m dingy because of it. But it’s because the question has to wait for its turn in the processing queue.

Here’s what I think happen in the male mind….

The data in the input buffer has a header with info indicating the source, the source code = “WIFE”. 

The male processing unit, seeing sourceCode=="WIFE", skims only for keywords and discards the rest.. Hence the liquid cough medicine. :rofl:


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## shy_guy

EleGirl said:


> Shy_guy,
> 
> The way you describe your mind working is the mind of a very intelligent person. The mind of the average person does not work like that. Your mind is asynchronous. I think that the mind of the average person is much more synchronous.
> 
> I’m a woman. My mind works like yours. I know my husband’s mind does as well. This is not a male vs female phenomenon. I have that 5 second delay that you talk about. Some people think I’m dingy because of it. But it’s because the question has to wait for its turn in the processing queue.
> 
> Here’s what I think happen in the male mind….
> 
> The data in the input buffer has a header with info indicating the source, the source code = “WIFE”.
> 
> The male processing unit, seeing sourceCode=="WIFE", skims only for keywords and discards the rest.. Hence the liquid cough medicine. :rofl:


:rofl:

It's actually good to compare notes and to hear a woman tell me her mind functions very similarly to mine. 

And I'm absolutely stealing that analogy and telling it to my colleagues


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## Jennifer_DIN

Thanks for the tip ;-)

My boyfriend can't take hints. I pretty much put my desired Christmas presents etc on an Amazon wishlist and post the link to all his emails!


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

My husband is really good in knowing when somethings not quite right. His intuition is very accurate! I am quite surprised with this.

You are absolutely right. My husband and I have zero problems communicating with each other. We talk through out the day everyday, even when he is at work. We are each others best friend. I'm right to the point and have no issues telling my husband exactly how I feel or what I want/need. When it comes to sex, we have our "codes" when we are in the mood. We use codes because our children are always near us unless we lock ourselves in our bedroom, which then we find something for them to do, so they don't come knocking on the door.

He does the same thing. We are not those type that hint around, we are straight to the point!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## shy_guy

Catherine, I didn't ignore what you were saying. It just took me a little longer to think through that. I have a few things I'd say back.

On giving options: I would have a little bit of a hangup on this because it would sound to me like I was giving my wife a sales job: Where I give options to choose from but none of them are "no." In sex in particular, I really want my wife to participate with me rather than just being sold on it by me. However; I think this would be something I could overcome if I knew she wanted me to take this approach. Other things we do in sex makes me think I could overcome this. The options might be limited, though, and may not include what she really wanted.

I have to tell you, I might have interpreted what you told your husband exactly the same way he did. (I also might have forgotten on purpose hoping to go back to the store together if I really thought we might, though, especially if I was going out again on Sun ... well, probably not, but it would have crossed my mind ) The reason I think I might have interpreted it that way is because I would think there was a reason for the details you gave me in the days you had to have it done. However; I think I've learned enough to clarify when I'm initially not sure of the meaning of details. I probably would have asked, "So on this trip, you want me to come out of the store with ... "

There's another reason I might have learned to ask like this, and it isn't because of menenglish vs womenenglish. My wife's and my first languages are different, so even though we each speak the other's language, I'm accustomed to sometimes having to clarify in order to be sure I have the meaning correct. Same for her. (Actually, when we're talking to each other, we usually speak in a hybrid of the two languages which is doubly interesting because the grammar of the two languages is so vastly different.) I'm not sure of the answer here other than to say it is very possible that I would have interpreted what you said the same way your husband did.

Going back to earlier in the thread, we had a misunderstanding, so I'm wondering if this is a case of the menenglish vs. womenenglish you're talking about. I'm curious what it was in my post that made you think I didn't want you to post on this thread. Did I throw up an emotional barrier when I used third person to refer to myself? or was it something entirely different? I'm not being confrontational here, I'm just wondering what it was that triggered that understanding from you.


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## Enchantment

shy_guy said:


> What I'm more interested in would be suggestions from bright ladies such as you. First, you may need to define for me what you mean by "harp on him." Do you mean you have to repeat because he's not catching it the first time? Or do you mean that you dislike having to tell him what you find romantic because you want him to figure it out.


I consider 'harping' if I have to repeat something more than 3 times (the 3 strike rule, I call it). 

In the romantic arena, for instance, I will tell my H that I really like something in particular, and really want to do that. Sometimes, he does, sometimes he doesn't, sometimes it's not repeated again unless I again verbalize it. So, yes, I would like him to be able to figure it out after he has been explicitly told it. 

I typically dislike having to repeat myself - whether it's in romantic encounters or not. Goes back to that *listening* thing again, and something sometimes more than that. We can 'listen' with our ears/eyes, but if it's not in our *heart* to do what we hear, then we are no further along.

This is one of the continuing sagas we have in our marriage - especially as I am a 'word' person and verbalize more and would like him to do that back, and he is not naturally that way - we really both have to stretch ourselves. Guess that's what it's all about. Because I am also by nature very impatient, and I have had to curb that and learn to be more patient - with my H and everyone!


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## Catherine602

shy_guy said:


> .On giving options: I would have a little bit of a hangup on this because it would sound to me like I was giving my wife a sales job: Where I give options to choose from but none of them are "no." In sex in particular, I really want my wife to participate with me rather than just being sold on it by me. However; I think this would be something I could overcome if I knew she wanted me to take this approach. Other things we do in sex makes me think I could overcome this.


This is a great thread Shy.

Never thought of that interpretation. He likes going with the flow of where ever passion takes us. Maybe he feels he is telling me how to feel. Not his style nor mine. Got to work on talking about sex. I can write to strangers but not talk to my H. Strange. 



shy_guy said:


> have to tell you, I might have interpreted what you told your husband exactly the same way he did. (I also might have forgotten on purpose hoping to go back to the store together if I really thought we might, though, especially if I was going out again on Sun.) The reason I think I might have interpreted it that way is because I would think there was a reason for the details you gave me in the days you had to have it done. However; I think I've learned enough to clarify when I'm initially not sure of the meaning of details. I probably would have asked, "So on this trip, you want me to come out of the store with ... "


This is so on target! "Just the facts, ma'am" Sgt. Joe Friday, Dragnet. If I said "Please get me bla bla from the store", full stop. I would have gotten what I wanted; when I wanted it. I knew which of the details were important but he didn't. Like EleGirls Mucinex. 
Adding detail is just nice conversation to me, paring things down to the bare bones seems rather stilted, but if it works who cares. 



shy_guy said:


> back to earlier in the thread, we had a misunderstanding, so I'm wondering if this is a case of the menenglish vs. womenenglish you're talking about. I'm curious what it was in my post that made you think I didn't want you to post on this thread. Did I throw up an emotional barrier when I used third person to refer to myself? or was it something entirely different? I'm not being confrontational here, I'm just wondering what it was that triggered that understanding from you.


Great question. your post "You know, Catherine and EleGirl, these threads mostly give men a chance to talk because the OP is a man . The OP here thinks it would be a good idea if some of you ladies who are good writers would also start threads that give the ladies a chance to talk to us. Are there things you want to tell us?"

I interpreted this to mean that you started the thread to elicit responses from men and if women had anything to say they should start their own. 

I have been invited out of the Men's Clubhouse many times, so i thought you were inviting me out of your thread. 

****** I like going to the Men's Clubhouse to annoy the guys who hang out in the man cave.


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## norajane

Jennifer_DIN said:


> Thanks for the tip ;-)
> 
> My boyfriend can't take hints. I pretty much put my desired Christmas presents etc on an Amazon wishlist and post the link to all his emails!


I did that for Christmas, too! I collected some links to different options, and sent them to him in an email to choose from. It worked brilliantly.


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## tiredandout

Me and my husband seem to have some of both the male and female characteristics each. I cannot take hints. At all. I ask him to clarify, he answers, and I reply back: "Yes, but what does that _mean_?". This must have something to do with the language of our relationship being his native language, not mine, but also it is a difference in communication styles where mine is very straightforward and his is more polite and descriptive — and such, in my eyes, sometimes incomprehensible. 

So this scenario is far too familiar in our house, only with the roles reversed:


> If you start telling me and I answer with, “But I did X, Y, and Z,” I’m not telling you I’m faultless, nor am I saying you’re selfish. What I’m saying is that I honestly thought I was doing what you are asking. Please understand that and tell me how this is different so I can understand it.


On the other hand, despite being straightforward, what I'm not is _to the point_. I take my time coming to the real issue. I like talking about everything related and all the feelings coming up to the fact. I think I am _clarifying_ the situation by providing as many details as possible. My husband _hates_ that haha. He starts to look like he is in agony, his forehead wrinkles and finally he gets frustrated and tells me it's too much, could I just "get to the point". 

I think we both have quite complex minds as well. He is extremely intelligent and constantly solving problems in his head, which causes his mind to be too "full" to take in all the information I give about any given situation. My mind is more of a creative wonderer, I get lost in details and thinking about different options. Which causes me to always want to elaborate and think about the different sides of a conflict that we're having for example. Boy, do we get in trouble. 

Obviously, both of us should truly _listen_ to each other more and show that we're doing that, in ways that the other one can understand. In addition to that, I should learn to speak more to the point especially when asking for something for myself (to make sure his attention span lasts to get it), and my husband could maybe learn to sometimes tolerate my in depth descriptions, so I would feel like he appreciates what I'm sharing with him.


Oh, just realized I was reading the "Long Term Success" forum. Well, feel free to kick me out, if you wish. We don't really even have short term success yet. Just good intentions.


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## shy_guy

tiredandout said:


> Oh, just realized I was reading the "Long Term Success" forum. Well, feel free to kick me out, if you wish. We don't really even have short term success yet. Just good intentions.


One thing I can promise you: Nobody wants to kick you off for posting here. I wish you long term success.

I'm interested in the way you and your husband communicate since I also have a bi-lingual marriage. Do you communicate in a pure form of his language all the time? or do you usually use a hybrid of the two languages?

BTW, I have a "story" I wrote and entered into a writing contest that gave humorous anecdotes from our marriage and the unique misunderstandings that come from such bilingual situations in our life together. I won't post it publicly because doing so would give away my identity and I want anonymity while here, but I understand the situation. I hope you both have a good sense of humor ...


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## cinibun

first, not all men are like you guys and even care about the desires of their wives, when she says hey i LOVE live music, that is a flippin hint, take me out, let me dress up to see live music and you WILL get lucky.. easy right.. compliment your wife.. just do it, i dont care that you dont see the point, just do it, once a week, once bi weekly, whatever.. hey sweetie, you are a great cook, your a great mom, your a hottie in bed, whatever.. again, will get you lots of points, its easy and free!! find a reason to be home alone to gether, make love in the living room.. again, easy, free, good for both.. we dont want to spell it out for you guys, this might help, treat your wife of years. Ive given up hope myself, if im home and naked my DH would rather play internet games, or watch tv than time with me, but I have tried to hey ... lets do this, lets do that.. touch me here, I wish you luck and pat your self on the back for even caring enough to be on this forum, i would do back flips if my H even cared...


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## Unhappy2011

A problem I had with my ex, is the classic "I told you we were going to my sisters place a month ago!" as I am irritatingly surprised to find out my free weekend day will not be spent doing what I want to do to enjoy life because during the rest of the week I am stressed at work.

Of Course I didn't remember, because a) let's be honest it was not really something I looked forward too and B) she randomly blurted it out while I am say intently watching a good game that's come down to a tie with two minutes to go.


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## CandyIsland

I keep telling my man what I want and need and he is the one that never listens...no hints...just the plain unadulterated truth...he listens, hears and forgets about it....agrees with me and says that this is what he wants too, that we are on the same page, but nothing EVER transpires the way it is supposed to. 

He even admits it...he is the worlds best procrastinator...and I am still waiting for him to keep his promises, which he breaks FREQUENTLY! 

Prior to my leaving SA, I was virtually begging him to get married....(what we both wanted, I think)...and he disregarded it...all of a sudden, I land in the UK and he cant get me back to SA quick enough to march me up the aisle....

Last week, I would have married him on the spot....but now after the events of last weekend and Mondays little display, I dont think I can...so who is the loser?


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## shy_guy

Cinibun and verycutemama (who has a verycutemonniker  ), I did say that the husband has to do his part. Absolutely true. I also said the example was of my thinking. 

Cinibun, if you would look at the "Things I like to tell my wife," and the "Things I like to hear from my wife" threads, I think you'll hear from me part of what you said addressed.

I'm sorry that things aren't so positive for you guys right now. I wish I could make it better. All I can do here is post my experience, and things I think have helped us.


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## tiredandout

shy_guy, it is true that the misunderstanding a bilingual relationship bring are frequent and many times very silly. 



> Do you communicate in a pure form of his language all the time? or do you usually use a hybrid of the two languages?


We communicate 99.1% in his language. He has studied mine enough to understand everyday interactions and most everything he reads, but hasn't had the motivation to learn to speak more than simple things. We have short discussions sometimes in my language too, and at least I don't have to translate every word. If I can't figure out how to say something in his language, I can say it in mine, and most always he gets it.

My mother tongue is a very difficult language to learn coming from English, with almost no relation to it and complicated grammatical rules. Because of this, I applaud my husband for having already learned so much of it in such a short time— I keep telling him how proud I am of that.

However, I think it puts some pressure on our communication that we only use his first language. Because I am generally fluent and can understand quite a bit of slang too, he sometimes seems to forget that I'm not as good at it as he is. For example, I misuse words or phrases (Many times I end up saying something that sounds like a sexual implication. This is already a joke amongst us. I cannot believe how many expressions English speakers can have for such things, I run into them all the time, haha.). Many times he finds this funny, but sometimes it annoys him. He also gets frustrated if several times in a row I don't understand something he says. It can be spoken language, a connotation clear to a native speaker but not for me (who have never even been to an English speaking country) or just some phrase I haven't heard before. 

I think the fact that I am very good at English makes him in a way _more_ annoyed when I don't get something, if that makes sense. Because generally he can assume that I will understand everything, it then surprises him when I suddenly don't. This surprise can be negative, especially if he is stressed about other things at the time, and make him frustrated that he cannot speak "normally" to me or feel that I don't understand "enough". I think this also has to do with the fact that where we live, he has quite few chances to speak with a native English speaker and that leaves him missing it already. (I completely understand the feeling, having lived abroad myself — there's virtually noone outside my couture's boarders who would speak my native tongue.)

Most of the time we can laugh at each other's mistakes with our languages, and sometimes even find surprising cleverness in the way that the other person expresses things in some unorthodox but very fitting way (in the language that is not their mother tongue). We are both language enthusiasts and I think both have very personal use of our native languages. Because of that, I understand my husband gets frustrated at times that I don't understand him. 

To be able to speak a hybrid of the two would be wonderful. I can only keep encouraging him in learning my language. Maybe in time he'll get good enough for that, but it is not something I expect or hope for. I have had to come to terms with the fact that I will most likely never be able to speak my language with him.


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## barbieDoll

I enjoyed this thread and perhaps with a little bit of thinking, I might just post a "Women want..." thread because believe me, there are things that I wish men (friends, brother, coworkers) would know as well as what I wish my H knew.

Does anyone remember the scene in "The Break Up" where they're fighting and Jennifer Aniston says, 

"I WANT you to WANT to do those things for me!"

That fight is so symbolic of the fights that I used to have with H. haha. 

Keep up the constructive comments - it's a wonderful learning experience


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## shy_guy

tiredandout said:


> shy_guy, it is true that the misunderstanding a bilingual relationship bring are frequent and many times very silly.
> 
> 
> 
> We communicate 99.1% in his language. He has studied mine enough to understand everyday interactions and most everything he reads, but hasn't had the motivation to learn to speak more than simple things. We have short discussions sometimes in my language too, and at least I don't have to translate every word. If I can't figure out how to say something in his language, I can say it in mine, and most always he gets it.
> 
> My mother tongue is a very difficult language to learn coming from English, with almost no relation to it and complicated grammatical rules. Because of this, I applaud my husband for having already learned so much of it in such a short time— I keep telling him how proud I am of that.
> 
> However, I think it puts some pressure on our communication that we only use his first language. Because I am generally fluent and can understand quite a bit of slang too, he sometimes seems to forget that I'm not as good at it as he is. For example, I misuse words or phrases (Many times I end up saying something that sounds like a sexual implication. This is already a joke amongst us. I cannot believe how many expressions English speakers can have for such things, I run into them all the time, haha.). Many times he finds this funny, but sometimes it annoys him. He also gets frustrated if several times in a row I don't understand something he says. It can be spoken language, a connotation clear to a native speaker but not for me (who have never even been to an English speaking country) or just some phrase I haven't heard before.
> 
> I think the fact that I am very good at English makes him in a way _more_ annoyed when I don't get something, if that makes sense. Because generally he can assume that I will understand everything, it then surprises him when I suddenly don't. This surprise can be negative, especially if he is stressed about other things at the time, and make him frustrated that he cannot speak "normally" to me or feel that I don't understand "enough". I think this also has to do with the fact that where we live, he has quite few chances to speak with a native English speaker and that leaves him missing it already. (I completely understand the feeling, having lived abroad myself — there's virtually noone outside my couture's boarders who would speak my native tongue.)
> 
> Most of the time we can laugh at each other's mistakes with our languages, and sometimes even find surprising cleverness in the way that the other person expresses things in some unorthodox but very fitting way (in the language that is not their mother tongue). We are both language enthusiasts and I think both have very personal use of our native languages. Because of that, I understand my husband gets frustrated at times that I don't understand him.
> 
> To be able to speak a hybrid of the two would be wonderful. I can only keep encouraging him in learning my language. Maybe in time he'll get good enough for that, but it is not something I expect or hope for. I have had to come to terms with the fact that I will most likely never be able to speak my language with him.


I understand this VERY VERY well. My wife's language is an east Asian language - no relationship to English whatsoever. It's hard for a native speaker of either to learn the other's language. Our hybrid language is all our own - speakers of either language don't really follow us and part of this is because the grammar of the two languages is so drastically different. When I speak to her in our hybrid, the grammar tends to be a little more English-like, and her grammar in our hybrid language tends to be a little more like her native language.

This is not something that developed in a few months for us, though. You said you are still short-timers, so it will be something you have to develop. Ours didn't develop consciously, either - it's just something that happened over time. And even though we speak like that, when we have friends over, I become conscious that there are times when she speaks to me in her language, I understand it without having to translate, and I answer her in my language. I spoke her language pretty well when we lived in her country, but we've been in the US for long enough now that although I understand her without translating (most times), I don't think in her language anymore, so it's difficult for me to speak back in her language ... but I can think in our hybrid language.

Even so, we still have our incidents ... like going to the doctor with the words "diabetes" and "Diarrhea" confused ... or when I meant to say "I need an eraser" but instead, I actually said "I need a diaper." Yep ... a sense of humor is definitely required :rofl:


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