# Can your spouse truly love you but still cheat on you?



## K.K. (Oct 25, 2011)

I don't understand it. How you you truly love someone and get into bed with someone else? Then not only once, but continue to get emotionally involved with this person. How do you meet someone at a restaurant, go back to your office, text them, go buy a condom, meet them at their hotel have oral sex and still love your spouse. How do you do this a second time and come home and get in bed and sleep next to me like nothing has happened. 
I don't understand how this could happen if he truly loves me. Our marriage was in the toilet, but I didn't cheat. If he truly loved me could he cheat like this?
I was doing fairly well, then this realization came to me. This is crushing me beyond belief. Can a person truly love someone and have sex and an emotional relationship with a stranger? He told her he loved her after a few days. What the @$%^ is that? If you are a cheater, explain this to me. Help me understand.:scratchhead:


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Compartmentalize---fallen out of love----in fantasyland---lots of reasons--

Question is---how can you be in love with the person, who treated you like sh*t, dissed you, and made you out to be less than nothing??


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## naperken (Feb 21, 2012)

Of course they can! It's the old 'I oxytocin you, but I dopamine him/her' story. It exactly what ILYBINILWY means.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I don't think you can cheat while in love unless you suffer from a mental disorder. Normal people would choose not to cheat because they love the person they would be hurting and betraying. When in love you want to protect not hurt.

The cheater can later fall in love with their BS, but during the affair - no I don't believe there is any respect or love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

K.K. said:


> I don't understand it. How you you truly love someone and get into bed with someone else? Then not only once, but continue to get emotionally involved with this person. How do you meet someone at a restaurant, go back to your office, text them, go buy a condom, meet them at their hotel have oral sex and still love your spouse. How do you do this a second time and come home and get in bed and sleep next to me like nothing has happened.
> I don't understand how this could happen if he truly loves me. Our marriage was in the toilet, but I didn't cheat. If he truly loved me could he cheat like this?
> I was doing fairly well, then this realization came to me. This is crushing me beyond belief. Can a person truly love someone and have sex and an emotional relationship with a stranger? He told her he loved her after a few days. What the @$%^ is that? If you are a cheater, explain this to me. Help me understand.:scratchhead:


OP, most of us here are BS. We all had same questions.
You can ask this for eternity.
Was there love in the first place at all?
Cheaters are liers. Have dual personalities. Show one face to the BS and another to AP.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

There are different kinds of love. There's the love that you feel for your parents. The love that you feel for your siblings and the love that you feel for your children. Heck there's even the love that you feel for your pets.

And of course, there's that special love that you feel for your spouse. During the affair, that love changes to something else, which as Naperken stated is the ILYBINILWY.

Also, keep in mind that love is a very subjective human construct and the meaning varies from person to person.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

problem with your question is....

define love. people define it differently, it's very subjective. 

He could believe he loves you and he could believe he loves her. but thats based on what he thinks love is. What he feels for you, and what he feels for her is NOT love. Problem is, your beating yourself up over what love means to other people... and that doesn't matter. You decide what it means to you. 

Obviously by your definition he does not love you. People that love one another do not do what he has done to you. 

Case closed.

Don't beat yourself up asking this question, he will never agree.

But, for the record, he is wrong.

*edit* just noticed after I replied...


Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Also, keep in mind that love is a very subjective human construct and the meaning varies from person to person.


I echo'ed part of what was being said by Count. But I was less concise. lol. Great minds? lol. well played. :smthumbup:


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Hi Pit, are you and bandit.45 friends?


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

AngryandUsed said:


> Hi Pit, are you and bandit.45 friends?


Why do you ask?


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## sprman1 (Apr 18, 2012)

K.K. said:


> I don't understand it. How you you truly love someone and get into bed with someone else? Then not only once, but continue to get emotionally involved with this person. How do you meet someone at a restaurant, go back to your office, text them, go buy a condom, meet them at their hotel have oral sex and still love your spouse. How do you do this a second time and come home and get in bed and sleep next to me like nothing has happened.
> I don't understand how this could happen if he truly loves me. Our marriage was in the toilet, but I didn't cheat. If he truly loved me could he cheat like this?
> I was doing fairly well, then this realization came to me. This is crushing me beyond belief. Can a person truly love someone and have sex and an emotional relationship with a stranger? He told her he loved her after a few days. What the @$%^ is that? If you are a cheater, explain this to me. Help me understand.:scratchhead:


My answer is no he can't unless you change how you percieve love.

There was a show I watched where the person was captured. 
In an effort to break him he was asked "how many lights do you see"?
There were 3 lights, but he was told to say there are only 2
He never broke.

There are many things wrong that people are forced to accept.
I will not bow, I will not break.
This world won't bring me down
when everything's made to be broken
Fight for what is right
There are 3 lights


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## naperken (Feb 21, 2012)

K.K., most of us here are BS's and I think it's a fair guess we all got the ILYBINILWY speech at some time. What you need to understand is that the AP is not real, she's just an idealized fantasy, a cartoon character of a person who is not real. YOU'RE REAL and of course he can love his spouse and best friend. He can become infatuated and hooked on the dopamine (which btw affects the exact same pleasure receptors as opiates) because it's real easy to fall in love with a person that you don't have live a life with all it's struggles and complexities. As Dr. Glass said, it's very easy to climb over to the other side of the fence when you don't have to mow it.

While this feels very personal, and believe me I know, just a scant 2 months out from d-day, THE AFFAIR HAD NOTHING TO WITH YOU!


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Why do you ask?


You both answer questions so directly. Ha!


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

AngryandUsed said:


> You both answer questions so directly. Ha!


I only know how to be direct, unrefined social skills I guess. lol. and no, I don't know him.


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## LeslieH (Apr 3, 2012)

Yes, I think your spouse can still love you and cheat on you. I have to agree with Naperken that is really does have nothing to do with you. The act itself is a very selfish and self-centered act. 

I'm the WS and the hardest question my husband asks is why I was not thinking of him. In a way, I was not thinking at all I was only thinking of AP. I felt terrible throughout the whole ordeal but I couldn't stop thinking or fantasizing about meeting with AP. I wan't thinking about my husband, my work, my health (I lost 7 pounds in 3 days, a lot for my size)... I hate to think that I was victim to chemicals, but I really can't think of why at the time I could think of nothing else. 

I realize now that there were early indications where I should have better steeled myself against AP's advances and my own feelings, but I didn't... and then I couldn't stop until I was completely removed from the situation. 

I love my husband. I don't think it's fair to say that I was not in love with him when the A happened, but I do realize that I have a piss-poor way of showing it. I'm in IC now and we are trying to R. He is the most important and best part of me, and I can't lose him.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

I think the answer is No. I think somewhere along the line the WS falls out of love with the bs and allows themselves to move forward. Otherwise, the A would never have BEGAN. It wouldnt have gotten far enough for the fog to begin. They would have walked away when that first pang happened. Yes they are human. Attraction happens. But IF my H was IN love w/me AT the time SHE would not have happened. JMO.

However, I do believe he can love you/me again if he learns who he is again.(if you/i are able to allow it)


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

I'll have to fall in to support Leslie here. I never didn't love my wife - not for a second. In fact the feelings my affair created for my AP it also increased for my wife. This is why compartmentalization is such a huge part of living an affair. What I just typed makes no sense - none whatsoever - it makes no more sense to you while your in an affair than it does after your out. Since logic and reason would tell you what I just typed is pure poppy**** and if you love your wife you should quit the affair but you can't bear to do that - you compartmentalize. Put each into it's own corner of your mind and never let the two enter your consciousness at the same time again. 

Sometimes we hurt those we love the most.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

What about if it was a drunken ONS? :scratchhead:


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Yes, you can love someone AND cheat on them.

Happens all the time.


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## Poppy (Mar 14, 2012)

This is exactly what I need help with today. I asked him last night why the kids and I are worth fighting for and protecting now, when he showed utter disregard for our feelings and safety before. I asked him why he told her he loved her...he said it was just in response to her saying it and he didnt love her, but it hurts me to think he said it to another woman. How can he have loved me and say it to someone else? How can he have such disrespect for me that he had sex with prostitutes from the Phillippines, Thailand and Indonesia (where the rate of HIV is shocking). How can he love his kids and risk them losing their Mum? For me love does not kick in and out as you choose to fit your need at the time. He says he always loved me and never wanted to hurt me. He shared a year of our marriage with someone else...how do you get that back? Does he love me now because he got found out and realised what he had to lose??? You cannot tell me that he did not consider us for one minute before...or am I wrong? I told him that love does not hurt. I told him that I was all the things he says I am now, but it still didnt stop him. I am so sad.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I think the answer is No. I think somewhere along the line the WS falls out of love with the bs and allows themselves to move forward. Otherwise, the A would never have BEGAN. It wouldnt have gotten far enough for the fog to begin. They would have walked away when that first pang happened. Yes they are human. Attraction happens. But IF my H was IN love w/me AT the time SHE would not have happened. JMO.
> 
> However, I do believe he can love you/me again if he learns who he is again.(if you/i are able to allow it)


Well the reason i say this is b/c I have been attracted to someone before(yes my H knows). As soon as that pang happened I put the brakes on right NOW!!!!! I knew I loved my H and NOTHING was worth risking losing him. So thats why I say attraction happens but affairs dont have to.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Poppy said:


> You cannot tell me that he did not consider us for one minute before...or am I wrong?


I can tell you exactly this. Affairs are perfectly selfish. Quite literally it wasn't about you - you were not a part of it - had nothing to do with it. When you're in your affair compartment - that's all there is - your real life/reality compartment is not a factor. He likely considered you AFTER, when he left the affair compartment and returned to the real world, but that's not enough to keep him from going back. The allure of the affair compartment - of being totally selfish - is very strong. 



canttrustu said:


> Well the reason i say this is b/c I have been attracted to someone before(yes my H knows). As soon as that pang happened I put the brakes on right NOW!!!!! I knew I loved my H and NOTHING was worth risking losing him. So thats why I say attraction happens but affairs dont have to.


No affairs don't have to happen and they shouldn't. People get weak, people get stupid, people make bad choices. That doesn't necessarily mean that they don't love their spouse or that they set out to hurt them.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Poppy said:


> This is exactly what I need help with today. I asked him last night why the kids and I are worth fighting for and protecting now, when he showed utter disregard for our feelings and safety before. I asked him why he told her he loved her...he said it was just in response to her saying it and he didnt love her, but it hurts me to think he said it to another woman. How can he have loved me and say it to someone else? How can he have such disrespect for me that he had sex with prostitutes from the Phillippines, Thailand and Indonesia (where the rate of HIV is shocking). How can he love his kids and risk them losing their Mum? For me love does not kick in and out as you choose to fit your need at the time. He says he always loved me and never wanted to hurt me. He shared a year of our marriage with someone else...how do you get that back? Does he love me now because he got found out and realised what he had to lose??? You cannot tell me that he did not consider us for one minute before...or am I wrong? I told him that love does not hurt. I told him that I was all the things he says I am now, but it still didnt stop him. I am so sad.


As I just said to my H....utter disregard.


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## Poppy (Mar 14, 2012)

Do you mean my husband having utter disregard or yours?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> I can tell you exactly this. Affairs are perfectly selfish. Quite literally it wasn't about you - you were not a part of it - had nothing to do with it. When you're in your affair compartment - that's all there is - your real life/reality compartment is not a factor. He likely considered you AFTER, when he left the affair compartment and returned to the real world, but that's not enough to keep him from going back. The allure of the affair compartment - of being totally selfish - is very strong.
> 
> 
> 
> No affairs don't have to happen and they shouldn't. People get weak, people get stupid, people make bad choices. That doesn't necessarily mean that they don't love their spouse or that they set out to hurt them.


Sig, agree to disagree...m H had a long time to know what he was doing.Spent a long time telling alot of lies. Now, lets hope the fog has worn off for mine and OP's H and they have come to their senses.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Poppy said:


> This is exactly what I need help with today. I asked him last night why the kids and I are worth fighting for and protecting now, when he showed utter disregard for our feelings and safety before. I asked him why he told her he loved her...he said it was just in response to her saying it and he didnt love her, but it hurts me to think he said it to another woman. How can he have loved me and say it to someone else? How can he have such disrespect for me that he had sex with prostitutes from the Phillippines, Thailand and Indonesia (where the rate of HIV is shocking). How can he love his kids and risk them losing their Mum? For me love does not kick in and out as you choose to fit your need at the time. He says he always loved me and never wanted to hurt me. He shared a year of our marriage with someone else...how do you get that back? Does he love me now because he got found out and realised what he had to lose??? You cannot tell me that he did not consider us for one minute before...or am I wrong? I told him that love does not hurt. I told him that I was all the things he says I am now, but it still didnt stop him. I am so sad.


The reason you are sad is that you are faced with the very tough choice that every spouse in R has to make.

You can either move forward and recommit to marriage with a person who cheated, lied, and risked the well being of innocent people. You will never entirely trust them--or trust them in the way you did before--again.

Or, you decide that you cannot live life that way. That no matter how much you care for this person, that the core of a marriage is trust, and that you cannot recover it because THEY destroyed it in you.

Another thing you must take a hard look at is that your husband qualifies as a serial cheater (having betrayed you with multiple people) and he also, if I understand correctly, entered into two different types of betrayals--anonymous sex with prostitutes, as well as a longer-term relationship with (at least from her side) an emotional component.

Are you in counseling (for yourself) and for your marriage? What do the counselors make of this? I highly recommend you seek specialized counseling, with someone who is trained in addictive / escapist / infidelity behaviors. While healthy 'normal' people can have an affair, and compartmentalize their love for the spouse and their infatuation with the AP, other people have serious personality disorders that cross the line into such profound selfishness as to be in their own special category. Knowing whether your spouse falls into one or the other box can give you better knowledge on whether / how to proceed.

But in the end, YOU are the one who has to decide whether you can live with this person, and whether they are a healthy living example for your children. Your kids should not see you in a marriage with someone who has massive disrespect for other human beings--it teaches them that this is who they should have as a life partner, and surely that is the last thing you would want for them. No one has a crystal ball to say whether your husband has moved past this terrible stage in life, or whether he is simply incapable of pulling it back together and becoming an adult.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Poppy said:


> Do you mean my husband having utter disregard or yours?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


well I can only speak for what I believe of mine.He made a choice over and over to lie to me, to deceive me to choose her over me. That being said, I do believe he is repentent. Now I have to decide if thats enough. Only you can decide for yours.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> I can tell you exactly this. Affairs are perfectly selfish. Quite literally it wasn't about you - you were not a part of it - had nothing to do with it. When you're in your affair compartment - that's all there is - your real life/reality compartment is not a factor. He likely considered you AFTER, when he left the affair compartment and returned to the real world, but that's not enough to keep him from going back. The allure of the affair compartment - of being totally selfish - is very strong.
> 
> 
> 
> No affairs don't have to happen and they shouldn't. People get weak, people get stupid, people make bad choices. That doesn't necessarily mean that they don't love their spouse or that they set out to hurt them.


Big dumb me...I was attracted to(and he to me) a rich, powerful and very good looking man and I turned him down for my H(And I dont regret it). Now my H is very good looking but rich...not so much. Makes me feel like Carol Burnet who passed up Elvis Presley when she was married only to find that her H had been unfaithful. FML


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Ya, and no condom used with the stranger... 
I believe the BJ story from my WS about as far as I can throw him. 
Who has sex with a complete stranger with no condom and then come back home and have sex with your wife?!? DISGUSTING and MEAN.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> Big dumb me...I was attracted to(and he to me) a rich, powerful and very good looking man and I turned him down for my H. Now my H is very good looking but rich...not so much. Makes me feel like Carol Burnet who passed up Elvis Presley when she was married only to find that her H had been unfaithful. FML


And you were a bigger and better person when you did that than your H was when he failed to do so. Both in and of themselves don't make either of you perfect or evil, but you do have the enviable and deserved position of the moral high ground

The volume and audacity of the lies and the duration certainly do make a difference. Any affair is a lie of omission so I can't say I didn't lie, but I only lied to my wife's face one time. My affair was less than 8 weeks start to finish and it was literally killing me. I was drinking like a fish and taking ambien like they were tic tacs. I only got caught because I let myself - I wanted out - ultimately because I hated what I was doing to my wife. 

So yes there are certainly degrees - every circumstance is unique and different. To the OP's question - is it possible? In my experience yes, but the complete opposite is totally possible to - maybe even more likely.


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## naperken (Feb 21, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I think the answer is No. I think somewhere along the line the WS falls out of love with the bs and allows themselves to move forward. Otherwise, the A would never have BEGAN. It wouldnt have gotten far enough for the fog to begin. They would have walked away when that first pang happened. Yes they are human. Attraction happens. But IF my H was IN love w/me AT the time SHE would not have happened. JMO.
> 
> However, I do believe he can love you/me again if he learns who he is again.(if you/i are able to allow it)



What we're talking about are 2 different types of love here. There is the immature infatuation (dopamine) and the mature love (oxytocin), which comes from building a life together through the years.

Most affairs are the dopamine, infatuation types and by many professionals is likened to an addiction. The WS spouse is, in fact, addicted which is why it takes weeks to months for the effects and the resulting withdrawals to subside.

So, I would disagree... you can dopamine your AP while you still oxytocin your spouse.


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## Poppy (Mar 14, 2012)

iheartlife...you made me want to cry. I am and have been seeing a cognitive behaviour therapist since September. He has been in IC in New York since January when he moved back from Singapore. We have been going to marriage counselling since jan. He is repentant and admitted to looking at porn pretty much every night for the last 10 years. We moved to Asia and he immediately started sleeping with prostitutes and then he started a year long affair on top of that. He then admitted that he had sex with a girl in a bar on business in Ohio over 2 years ago. I guess I know he is a serial cheater, but as I discovered all of these things at once over a few months si that his second chance, or is the fact that he did all these things and not choose to stop before being found out mean that there is less hope? I have 2 daughters aged 10 and 12 and I would never, never want them to stay with a man like this, so why am I? Yes, I love him..I want to believe he is sorry and will never hurt me again, but is there just too much damage? Is the fact that he did so much..ONS, prostitutes and a year long affair mean that there is less hope? I am so confused, so tired. I wanted him to leave the house last night and go to the condo he rented when I found out about the prostitutes, but I stopped him going in the end because I knew that if he went he would spend the night looking at porn...that is so messed up. My life has been taken over by this for 8 months. Do I walk away now and not care whether he is sorry or not? I know nobody can tell me what to do, but I am losing myself and I want to be a great Mum to my girls. They did not deserve this. What I struggle to get over is that he had sex with me not knowing his HIV or STD status..he had the tests done but they would not have been valid because it was only a week after the last prostitute in Hong Kong. Is that just too much???? What more would he have had to do for me to walk away? I have asked this before...sorry....


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Poppy said:


> iheartlife...you made me want to cry. I am and have been seeing a cognitive behaviour therapist since September. He has been in IC in New York since January when he moved back from Singapore. We have been going to marriage counselling since jan. He is repentant and admitted to looking at porn pretty much every night for the last 10 years. We moved to Asia and he immediately started sleeping with prostitutes and then he started a year long affair on top of that. He then admitted that he had sex with a girl in a bar on business in Ohio over 2 years ago. I guess I know he is a serial cheater, but as I discovered all of these things at once over a few months si that his second chance, or is the fact that he did all these things and not choose to stop before being found out mean that there is less hope? I have 2 daughters aged 10 and 12 and I would never, never want them to stay with a man like this, so why am I? Yes, I love him..I want to believe he is sorry and will never hurt me again, but is there just too much damage? Is the fact that he did so much..ONS, prostitutes and a year long affair mean that there is less hope? I am so confused, so tired. I wanted him to leave the house last night and go to the condo he rented when I found out about the prostitutes, but I stopped him going in the end because I knew that if he went he would spend the night looking at porn...that is so messed up. My life has been taken over by this for 8 months. Do I walk away now and not care whether he is sorry or not? I know nobody can tell me what to do, but I am losing myself and I want to be a great Mum to my girls. They did not deserve this. What I struggle to get over is that he had sex with me not knowing his HIV or STD status..he had the tests done but they would not have been valid because it was only a week after the last prostitute in Hong Kong. Is that just too much???? What more would he have had to do for me to walk away? I have asked this before...sorry....


Poppy, I know what you mean. My WS had a ONS with a stranger on a business trip and had total disregard for if he had brought home a STD. He once told me in an argument that it's like an old 50s educational video. Just because she looked clean didn't mean she was... Yet, he still insists my HPV came from a BJ only. Wow, the more I type it out the more mad I get... Why won't he just admit what he did?!?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

naperken said:


> you can dopamine your AP while you still oxytocin your spouse.


I love this statement. It describes the experience better than anything else I've read.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

*Love is the great subjective. 

~Pit
Talk About Marraige Forums.*

profound huh? lol.

Reading this spew is so frustrating. Every person has a monsterous c0cktail of emotions and they get to decide which combination defines feeling "love" for another person... Blah. 

So it begs these questions... I told a girl I was having a EA with that I loved her... I was overcome with emotion and swooning... at the time I believed I meant it, but later I realized I didn't. I bet if I ask anyone that has had some kind of affair if they said it, did they think they meant it? Sigma, you told the OW you loved her right? Did you beleive in that did in that moment? In retrospect, have you reassigned those emotions? So now maybe you didn't? 

You say loved your wife when you were having an affair, while having this affair did you feel like you loved your wife? Maybe you had memories, attachments, and many many feelings for her... Maybe you did think contiously that you loved her, but maybe there was a shift in degrees of love or types of love or whatever... just shifting and redefining as is convienant or nessasary for you to persue what it was that you desired in that moment... 

That's the wrinkle. The loose defintion that each person gets to manipulate, what 'love' means to them... What if I punch you in the face, for no reason, as hard as I can? and I tell you that I did it because I love you... Can you argue? No, you can't. I get to define it. But my action was not a loving action right? So by the same account, I think its absurd for you to claim you loved someone that you hurt so deeply. You felt many things for her no doubt, and the loving attachment likely existed... But that is not love, in that moment or those moments you did not love your wife. You manipualted your definition and its crap. I am no better, in my life many times I have been guilty of it too.

Anyone who has cheated, maybe take a moment and be honest if only to yourself. Maybe shift your definition, this time in an honest way that doesn't benefit what _you need_ to believe... 

Maybe shift your paradigm of thinking to a definition that can not internally negotiated. 

*Love is an action* and you did not love her when you did this. 

This women's husband does not love her. He has many deep feelings for her, if it suits him to define them as love... that's his perogitive. I call bullsh*t. On him and on anyone that hurts someone that they claim to love. Your actions are clear, love does not hurt. Hurting someone is a choice, a decision. You have your choice in that moment, you made the CHOICE not to love. 

Now be a man, or a women and *OWN IT.* As a man who has grown to believe what Ive said above, I will and I will assign accountability to anyone who chooses to hurt rather than choosing to love yet hides behind that word. _I have done it_, and Im sorry. I lied. I didn't love them.


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## sprman1 (Apr 18, 2012)

Well said. Wrong is wrong.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

That's all fair Pit. I did tell my AP that I loved her, and yes I believed it at the time, and yes I have come to understand that no - in reality I didn't; but I did in fantasy land. 

If love is only an action you are right I did not love my wife during my affair. I for damn sure wasn't behaving like I love her then. But what I know is what I felt - or maybe think I felt - so help me with this. I have said here before that my affair reminded me what it felt like to be in love, and that it actually reawakened some of those feelings for my wife - and I expressed them to her - while the affair was still going on - and that I believe they were genuine - they felt/feel genuine. Is it possible that I was on such dopamine overload that I simply assigned some of what I felt for my AP to my wife? Was I so high on the affair drug that I would have felt in love with a toad? I don't know - thoughts?

I would steadfastly tell you that I reconnected with my wife DURING my affair. That the increased affection I felt and expressed was real, that my affair made me realize and remember just how much I love my wife. Maybe I'm wrong though, one thing I've come to understand is that when you're in an affair you cannot trust your emotions. I will add here that within 72 hours of D day my wife and I went into a very long and very intense period of hysterical bonding - not sure why that seems pertinent but it does. 

So does a drug addict who spends all of his family's money getting his fix not love his family? Does a gambling addict who blows it all at the casino not love his wife? Most will say no, that those vices are not direct violations of your vows and giving something you promised to give only to your spouse to another. It is said here, and I believe correctly, that an affair is not about the betrayed spouse it's about the cheater. So while the act is a violation of and betrayal of trust, from the cheaters seat it is very much like other forms of self destructive behavior - all about yourself. 

None of the above is intended to rationalize or defend my affair, I wouldn't try to defend the indefensible. Pit I am genuinely interested in your thoughts, please don't take any of the above as being argumentative or antagonistic, it is not my intent in any way.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

I'm in minority duh.........lol!!

I definitely think you can if it's a once or twice type of deal. Ongoing affairs, multiple ONS, or habitual behavior I don't think it's true love.

I know few will agree, but we are all tempted and we all make mistakes. I definitely think there is a difference between "I got drunk partied and had a ONS" one time in 25 years versus a year long affair with emotions etc.

So, my answer is for Yes for some and no for others. all affairs are different.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

Also agree with Sigma!! Very true statements there..


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

sigma1299 said:


> None of the above is intended to rationalize or defend my affair, I wouldn't try to defend the indefensible. Pit I am genuinely interested in your thoughts, please don't take any of the above as being argumentative or antagonistic, it is not my intent in any way.


I don't take it as argumentative or antagonistic, your not rationalizing it or being defensive. We are having a discussion, I respect you. You made a mistake, likely many of them. We all have, I have made countless mistakes in my life. I do want to share some additional thoughts after I put my little boy to sleep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

if they say they do, that is some warped sense of love, if you ask me.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Poppy said:


> iheartlife...you made me want to cry. I am and have been seeing a cognitive behaviour therapist since September. He has been in IC in New York since January when he moved back from Singapore. We have been going to marriage counselling since jan. He is repentant and admitted to looking at porn pretty much every night for the last 10 years. We moved to Asia and he immediately started sleeping with prostitutes and then he started a year long affair on top of that. He then admitted that he had sex with a girl in a bar on business in Ohio over 2 years ago. I guess I know he is a serial cheater, but as I discovered all of these things at once over a few months si that his second chance, or is the fact that he did all these things and not choose to stop before being found out mean that there is less hope? I have 2 daughters aged 10 and 12 and I would never, never want them to stay with a man like this, so why am I? Yes, I love him..I want to believe he is sorry and will never hurt me again, but is there just too much damage? Is the fact that he did so much..ONS, prostitutes and a year long affair mean that there is less hope? I am so confused, so tired. I wanted him to leave the house last night and go to the condo he rented when I found out about the prostitutes, but I stopped him going in the end because I knew that if he went he would spend the night looking at porn...that is so messed up. My life has been taken over by this for 8 months. Do I walk away now and not care whether he is sorry or not? I know nobody can tell me what to do, but I am losing myself and I want to be a great Mum to my girls. They did not deserve this. What I struggle to get over is that he had sex with me not knowing his HIV or STD status..he had the tests done but they would not have been valid because it was only a week after the last prostitute in Hong Kong. Is that just too much???? What more would he have had to do for me to walk away? I have asked this before...sorry....


Are any of your therapists trained in porn addiction? Many men enjoy porn and are capable of carrying on healthy marriages. But not all.

Have you seen this famous lecture on porn?
TEDxGlasgow - Gary Wilson - The Great Porn Experiment - YouTube

Again, some men are able to watch porn and then channel their enjoyment into a healthy sex life. Other men get caught in a cycle with porn where (like a drug) they need increasingly harder and harder core stuff to get off (and by getting off, I mean masturbation, which creates a dopamine reward cycle in some men much as cheating does--which is often discussed around here). And then some men take that and then seek more partners to live out their porn-induced fantasies which become stranger and riskier as the "newness" wears off.

In terms of your question about serial cheating, I do believe that it counts if they have multiple partners before you find out. I would probably lump seeing prostitutes as "one" and the affair as "two." Even though he saw prostitutes many times, theoretically he wasn't attached to any one of them and they were to some extent interchangeable bodies where it was all about sex.

But I can see your point, which is that all of this occurred before he recommitted to your marriage, so another way to look at it is that it all counts together as a great big "one" time.

What is the understanding between the two of you about his porn use? That you don't like it but he can still do it? That he tells you he won't but he does it anyway? That he says he's allowed to do it and you shouldn't try to control him?

I'm also curious--if you don't mind me asking--whether any of the therapists have brought up the madonna/who** complex, where he puts you on an idealized pedestal, meant to be worshipped but not enjoyed in a 'dirty' sexy way.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

We are only human. Despite our best intentions, each of us are capable of failure, including those failures we believe are beneath us. There are no saints on this earth. Peter loved Jesus but denied Him three times. If someone who raised the dead and healed the blind could fail, I don't imagine it's beyond the realm of possibility for little ol' me.


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## Love Song (Jan 16, 2012)

K.K. said:


> I don't understand it. How you you truly love someone and get into bed with someone else? Then not only once, but continue to get emotionally involved with this person. How do you meet someone at a restaurant, go back to your office, text them, go buy a condom, meet them at their hotel have oral sex and still love your spouse. How do you do this a second time and come home and get in bed and sleep next to me like nothing has happened.
> I don't understand how this could happen if he truly loves me. Our marriage was in the toilet, but I didn't cheat. If he truly loved me could he cheat like this?
> I was doing fairly well, then this realization came to me. This is crushing me beyond belief. Can a person truly love someone and have sex and an emotional relationship with a stranger? He told her he loved her after a few days. What the @$%^ is that? If you are a cheater, explain this to me. Help me understand.:scratchhead:



My husband hasn't cheated on me and I have not on him. 

But I do think it has more to do with a person's lack of love and respect for themselves that will cause them to cheat. In my opinion it can still happen if they genuinely love their spouse. It's still wrong though regardless of why they do it.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

I believe that affairs as as different as the people who engage in them. When Morrigan had her affair she admits that if there was love for me it was not very strong and certainly not the type of love a wife has for her husband. She said she isn't the type to share her affections so as her feelings for her AP grew her feelings for me dimmed. I would rather have heard that she still loved me while in her affair but she won't lie to me just to make me feel better.

What I can't understand to this day, and she's tried to explain it to me many times, is that our sex life never faltered at all. If she had little to no feelings for me how could she have had sex with me consistently? She has said that sex with me was familiar and comforting and that's why she could still enjoy it even with little emotional feelings for me. For a long time I felt resentment for that because I felt like she used me as a sex toy and to feel better about herself with no regard for my feelings. But eventually I had to let that resentment go because if I didn't we could never have moved on.

My belief is that she did still have love for me but buried those feelings so that she could justify her affair at the time. Then again, who can tell how the human mind really works. Just when you've got all the answers someone goes and changes the damned questions.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

My crazy wife tries to say that she kept cheating because i was so angry at her for having cheated.

In her mind that meant I was an angry person who used to be such a fun person to be around. and she could not FIGURE OUT what changed, but she was not at fault and needed to go elsewhere.


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## LeslieH (Apr 3, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I think the answer is No. I think somewhere along the line the WS falls out of love with the bs and allows themselves to move forward. Otherwise, the A would never have BEGAN. It wouldnt have gotten far enough for the fog to begin. They would have walked away when that first pang happened. Yes they are human. Attraction happens. But IF my H was IN love w/me AT the time SHE would not have happened. JMO.
> 
> However, I do believe he can love you/me again if he learns who he is again.(if you/i are able to allow it)


IN love is very different from love. One is purely chemical and the root of affairs and one is an intellectual act that leads to genuine feeling and regard. Your experience with A is very different from mine, so that has clearly colored our opinions. I realize that my A was a terrible mistake. I broke down during my session today when my therapist asked for AP's name. I was that ashamed. For some, the A is an incredibly embarrassing moment. 

Upon reflection, it's a moment when we realize how weak and human we are. It is very humbling. It shows us the harm people are able to inflict upon each other. It shows that despite pondering questions about life's meaning, (if we are not careful) we are still subject to natural chemical processes. Once you realize the damage you've done, I at least, feel like less of a person...more an animal... and it's insulting to me and to my spouse. 

More importantly, I learned that being IN LOVE is very different from loving a spouse. I was always IN LOVE with my spouse, but I failed to understand how to demonstrate real Love 9boundaries, considerations, etc.) Falling and feeling IN LOVE is easy... that;s how A's happen It's building upon that to create a richer experience that is more difficult.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

LeslieH said:


> IN love is very different from love. One is purely chemical and the root of affairs and one is an intellectual act that leads to genuine feeling and regard. Your experience with A is very different from mine, so that has clearly colored our opinions. I realize that my A was a terrible mistake. I broke down during my session today when my therapist asked for AP's name. I was that ashamed. For some, the A is an incredibly embarrassing moment.
> 
> Upon reflection, it's a moment when we realize how weak and human we are. It is very humbling. It shows us the harm people are able to inflict upon each other. It shows that despite pondering questions about life's meaning, (if we are not careful) we are still subject to natural chemical processes. Once you realize the damage you've done, I at least, feel like less of a person...more an animal... and it's insulting to me and to my spouse.
> 
> More importantly, I learned that being IN LOVE is very different from loving a spouse. I was always IN LOVE with my spouse, but I failed to understand how to demonstrate real Love 9boundaries, considerations, etc.) Falling and feeling IN LOVE is easy... that;s how A's happen It's building upon that to create a richer experience that is more difficult.


I am sure your heart would have told you and all WS for that matter, that one is crossing the boundaries. WS choose to ignore the heart and go after the pusuit of pleasure.
Troubles within WS begin with guilt setting in and the relationship goes for a big toss.
Heart says what is right and when the actions conflict, troubles begin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I think LeslieH has hit on something. Looking back on my 21 year marriage, I can recall many seasons when my wife was very much in love with me. These were interspersed with seasons of indifference, the last one being whe she started having her latest EA/PA. I wonder if at any time in my marriage if my wife truly loved me with that meanngful, committed type of love. I'm beginning to think she never did. I think she stayed with me out of comfort and habit -- not true love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sunshinetoday (Mar 7, 2012)

Just remember if someone is cheating or having an active EA, they can't really love anyone, including themselves. Everyone can make mistakes and get caught up, it's how you come back from your mistakes and make ammends that shows true character.


_-- Sent from my Palm Pixi using Forums_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

michzz said:


> My crazy wife tries to say that she kept cheating because i was so angry at her for having cheated.
> 
> In her mind that meant I was an angry person who used to be such a fun person to be around. and she could not FIGURE OUT what changed, but she was not at fault and needed to go elsewhere.


Frankly I don't see how you can put up living with that kind of woman and still keep your sanity.


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## Poppy (Mar 14, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> Are any of your therapists trained in porn addiction? Many men enjoy porn and are capable of carrying on healthy marriages. But not all.
> 
> Have you seen this famous lecture on porn?
> TEDxGlasgow - Gary Wilson - The Great Porn Experiment - YouTube
> ...


I have set up an appointment for tomorrow night to go together to see a sex therapist. I just feel that the sex and porn side of things are not being dealt with in his IC. I do not want to control his treatment and demand he goes to a sex therapist, but I believe it is our problem now and want to go together for help. I do not think he can maintain just stopping the nightly porn after so many years...on top of that stopping the clubs, women, paying for sex and having a doting AP. I cannot fill all those spaces for a sustainable period of time. He now comes up to bed with me every night, but he admitted in therapy that this prevents him turning to porn. That is alot of pressure for me. I think he believes he is in control, but I think he is struggling. The madonna complex thing is something I have looked at myself, but not mentioned in therapy. I do not have an issue with porn and am realistic enough to know that most men look at it..being such visual creatures, but now that I know that he turned to porn every night instead of coming to bed with me for 10 years out of our 14 year marriage, I do have issue with it. I thought he needed less sleep than me and was playing computer games. My IC has explained to me that he has conditioned himself with orgasms and porn and that this is not going to be easy to break. The fact that he then made it real life in Asia...picking out prostitutes in bars...makes it even harder.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

michzz said:


> You really have to step back and see for a moment just how shockingly repugnant any spouse would react to finding this out, that their cheating spouse could actually believe that their intensity of feelings for them increased during their cheating.
> 
> See, the expression of love for a faithful spouse REQUIRES the context of monagamy.
> 
> Anything else? Is just whoring around.


I have never said it was pretty. Indeed I've said many times it adds a deeper level of sick and twisted to my particular transgression. However, unless Pit can help me see that it was just fog overload or something else other what it appeared to be, that is in fact what happened. 

I will never say that I was acting like, expressing, or showing my wife that I loved her. I surely was doing the opposite, I'm only speaking of what I felt. Which, to be honest, was such a huge jumble of emotions that I could be totally confused. I'm hoping Pit has some light to shed here. 

And yes, actions speak louder than words so all of the above is mostly just pointless drivel, the fact remains that I was cheating on my wife.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

sunshinetoday said:


> Just remember if someone is cheating or having an active EA, they can't really love anyone, including themselves. Everyone can make mistakes and get caught up, it's how you come back from your mistakes and make ammends that shows true character.
> 
> 
> _-- Sent from my Palm Pixi using Forums_


Totally agree with this.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Poppy said:


> I have set up an appointment for tomorrow night to go together to see a sex therapist. I just feel that the sex and porn side of things are not being dealt with in his IC. I do not want to control his treatment and demand he goes to a sex therapist, but I believe it is our problem now and want to go together for help. I do not think he can maintain just stopping the nightly porn after so many years...on top of that stopping the clubs, women, paying for sex and having a doting AP. I cannot fill all those spaces for a sustainable period of time. He now comes up to bed with me every night, but he admitted in therapy that this prevents him turning to porn. That is alot of pressure for me. I think he believes he is in control, but I think he is struggling. The madonna complex thing is something I have looked at myself, but not mentioned in therapy. I do not have an issue with porn and am realistic enough to know that most men look at it..being such visual creatures, but now that I know that he turned to porn every night instead of coming to bed with me for 10 years out of our 14 year marriage, I do have issue with it. I thought he needed less sleep than me and was playing computer games. My IC has explained to me that he has conditioned himself with orgasms and porn and that this is not going to be easy to break. The fact that he then made it real life in Asia...picking out prostitutes in bars...makes it even harder.


So perhaps another way to put it is that he's addicted to masturbation via the dopamine reward cycle. If you watch the video, it will explain a lot of what he's going through. I'm glad you are able to zero in on the problem. Of course, turning to porn and masturbation and outside sex constantly is still a symptom of something larger, but addiction specialists have likely seen it all and are able to dig down deep enough to uncover his motivations and to honestly discuss with you the likelihood of recovery.

BTW, not to be graphic, but would be be satisfied with an occasional hand job? Mixes it up a little and gives you a little break.

And I'm so sorry about all of this, because I'm sure sex with him in general is just one great big reminder of the struggle you're going through. But I would draw comfort from the fact that despite all the sex he had with others, sex truly is a way for your husband to express love for YOU and bond with YOU; his mind compartmentalized the two very different acts in a way that may be hard to understand but is still a road back to a healthy marriage.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Trying to unravel this contradiction is like trying to have a rational debate with a schizophrenic... how do you argue with crazy?

Sitting in counseling with my fWW, our counselor looked at me after a rough session and said to me... "RWB, you do no that AFFAIRs are not real". I replied, the SEX were real, the LIES were real, the risks to my HEALTH were real... etc." She responded, in a fantasy anything is possible. She was looking at my wife. 

Without doubt, this discourse on "how could you love me and do that" must vary from person to person. In my wife's case, it was nothing more than a selfish, albeit reckless, fantasy. She could compartmentalize real life just as well as her affair life. As others have said... It really was not about you.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

Poppy

Even though there was no affair (that I know of) that turned off my wife's desire for sex a year and half after we got married, I started resenting her and despite improving myself to become a better husband, after three and a half years of living in a sexless marriage I finally had enough and divorced her. My advice to you is to do the same, divorce him.


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## naperken (Feb 21, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> I love this statement. It describes the experience better than anything else I've read.


This is a very difficult topic for any BS (and also WS) to wrap their head around.

All I can say from my own personal experience as a BS, I was faced with two caricatures of my wife before and shortly after d-day. One was an evil, conniving spawn of Satan, and the other was an unhappy, fallible human being, whose flaws created a perfect storm of horrible choices which have scarred the both of us for life. From 2 books (MMSL & Not 'Just Friends'), I was able reconcile her actions and choose the second.

My wife has truly been the healer in our recovery. She accepts full responsibility, is working hard to understand and battle her personal demons, and tells me everyday that I'm the real thing and he was just a horribly distorted fantasy. I have no doubt that during the affair she loved me, just as she loves me now.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

I don't think it's possible. Whatever state of mind they were when they went to f*ck around, it's hardly love to their spouse.

Let's not stretch the definitions of what love really is, that's how words become useless.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

snap said:


> Let's not stretch the definitions of what love really is, that's how words become useless.


There are varying degrees of love... Surely you see this. I love my children and would do anything for them. Loving my wife isn't a betrayal of that sort of love. Yet the love of my wife is different than that of my children, or friends, or family. I think of it as having various 'conditional' aspects.

While my wife was cheating on me, she says she 'loved' me. I believe it. It just was a lot more conditional than my love for her. We were speaking about two seperate kinds of love. I think of my love for her was 'romantic love' and had romantic expressions.... This is not what she felt for me, but felt for another... But she did have love for me like a family member; Willing to defend, support, etc., without romantic expressions.


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## naperken (Feb 21, 2012)

oaksthorne said:


> Maybe you can site chemistry as a reason for an A, but there is a lot more to it. I have as much chemistry as anyone else, but I also have principals that prevent me from making all the dishonest and disloyal choices required to carry on an A. I think of that as love. Real love is guided by principal and commitment. While I was forgiving and minimizing my H's faults because of principled love for him, he was magnifying my faults to justify his A. I don't want the kind of "love " that will allow a person to do this to another. He can't understand that, no surprise there !


While I agree that affairs are not black and white, your response demonstrates an unrealistic understanding of how the interplay of biology and marital, individual, and societal vulnerabilities can create a perfect storm with respect to affairs then. 

There are plenty of 'principled' folk in this forum who will tell you that affairs start insidiously, to even the most happiest of marriages, and never thought for a second that their (or their spouses) firm boundaries could be breached.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

naperken said:


> While I agree that affairs are not black and white, your response demonstrates an unrealistic understanding of how the interplay of biology and marital, individual, and societal vulnerabilities can create a perfect storm with respect to affairs then.
> 
> There are plenty of 'principled' folk in this forum who will tell you that affairs start insidiously, to even the most happiest of marriages, and never thought for a second that their (or their spouses) firm boundaries could be breached.


which begs the question why bother with marriage???


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

naperken said:


> There are plenty of 'principled' folk in this forum who will tell you that affairs start insidiously, to even the most happiest of marriages, and never thought for a second that their (or their spouses) firm boundaries could be breached.


That would be me...


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## naperken (Feb 21, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> which begs the question why bother with marriage???


What does marriage have to do with it? There are plenty of folk out there who aren't married but vowed exclusivity, only to be betrayed by their partner. It happens, people screw up.

If you're risk adverse, can't handle the concept that human beings are fallible and that "rational and kind people will do illogical and horrible things to the people that love them the most in the world", then maybe relationships aren't for you.

Me? I'm still willing to put myself out there, have some faith in the overall goodness of people, and take a risk.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

naperken said:


> What does marriage have to do with it? There are plenty of folk out there who aren't married but vowed exclusivity, only to be betrayed by their partner. It happens, people screw up.
> 
> If you're risk adverse, can't handle the concept that human beings are fallible and that "rational and kind people will do illogical and horrible things to the people that love them the most in the world", then maybe relationships aren't for you.
> 
> Me? I'm still willing to put myself out there, have some faith in the overall goodness of people, and take a risk.


ummmmm, this is a Talk about MARRIAGE forum....


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## K.K. (Oct 25, 2011)

I'm trying to process all these opinions. I agree with some and disagree with others. I just can't wrap my head around it. All I know, nothing has ever hurt with this intensity before. I've been betrayed by friends, had words with family members, been "thrown under the bus" by co-workers. This is the topper. It's devastating and debilitating. So if you haven't cheated, and ever think about, please think twice. Do the honorable thing and walk away. Don't hurt someone like this. Being "cheated on" changes a person forever. I will never be the same.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

In the vast,vast majority of cases this is not true. It's not even logical to suggest otherwise. Infidelity is the ultimate act of betrayal, and like other posters have said, the pain inflicted and its intensity is incomparable. To say you truly love your spouse after doing that them is not only disingenuous but ridiculous too. How can you be in love with your spouse if you devote so much emotionally, physically even financially to a third party. Clearly one has a leg up on the other.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

KK, 

I have been through most of what you say, if not more. Sad.
Hurts. Deeply.

Cant say anymore.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

I agree with K.K., too. This is the worst pain I've ever experienced. I doubt I'll ever be the same person again. A part of me was robbed.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

hurtingbadly said:


> I agree with K.K., too. This is the worst pain I've ever experienced. I doubt I'll ever be the same person again. A part of me was robbed.


I dont know if I will be the same ever. Its doubtful. But I have doubt that I will ever view him the same way. I will continue to love him and Im hoping I will regain respect for him but I dont know that it will ever run as deep as it once did. Maybe thats for the best though because this has effected me way WAY more and in ways that I didnt realize it would. So I think Im saying maybe I gave him too much of me. Now I will hold some part of me so that he cant ever cut me so deeply again.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> I dont know if I will be the same ever. Its doubtful. But I have doubt that I will ever view him the same way. I will continue to love him and Im hoping I will regain respect for him but I dont know that it will ever run as deep as it once did. Maybe thats for the best though because this has effected me way WAY more and in ways that I didnt realize it would. So I think Im saying maybe I gave him too much of me. Now I will hold some part of me so that he cant ever cut me so deeply again.


YEP! I don't see my WS the same way, either.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

morituri said:


> Frankly I don't see how you can put up living with that kind of woman and still keep your sanity.


You can't!

I've moved out to an apartment near my job and we're working on selling the house.

Formally parting is after that.

It has been a very difficult process and has taken far too long for both finding out just what I was up against, processing my choices and ending this travesty of a marriage.

Many things have intruded. My son's health, job crises, and so on.

This is my year to act. I got a great job after a long time being benched. The apartment was a big step too.

Kid's health has stabilized as well.


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

Would you say it lessens one's guilt if they said they always loved their spouse during their affair???


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> which begs the question why bother with marriage???


1) People are fallible. People make horrible choices. People can be selfish.

2) But people can also be noble. People can be incredibly loving. People can be overwhelmingly selfless.

I believe the majority of people would choose to be the latter. But sometime people also get lost. People get confused.

People sometimes have mental health issues that prevent them from being able to conduct themselves in healthy relationships.

People can also forgive.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

KK

What you said... I have uttered to my self a million times... you are correct... 

"I will never be the same."

It really is the single most changing event of a lifetime. It occupies your reasoning, your resolve, your mind, without cease. 

I really don't thing the cheating spouse will ever understand.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

RWB said:


> KK
> 
> What you said... I have uttered to my self a million times... you are correct...
> 
> ...


You hit on the heart of the problem. Neither party will ever truly understand the other. I know how I feel and most BS on here will understand me. But I don't know entirely how Morrigan felt/feels. I've looked into her eyes as she's tried to explain it to me. I've seen her struggle to try to form words to express her thoughts and feelings and know that she finds those words hollow and inadequate. I wish science would someday come up with a way to communicate feelings to others. I'd love to someday share that deeper understanding and connection with her.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

RWB said:


> KK
> 
> What you said... I have uttered to my self a million times... you are correct...
> 
> ...


It's really changed the way I view my entire life and past history. Course, I had the ten years in the dark. He cried the other day saying things will never be the same. He's right. But, it made me wonder... He knew for ten years he cheated, he didn't feel that way over those years? It was only when I found out he felt this way? :scratchhead:


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

OMG I've been gone for a week from TAM (well reading bits and pieces when I can on the road). 6 pages on this topic took me a while this morning to catch up. I am SOOO GLAD YOU POSTED THIS KK. I hate it. I struggle with this Q daily. 

I'm not sure why, but something inside me has "clicked" and for me I decided that my H was not himself. I got the ILYBINILWY speach on DDay. My time towards my business drove him away, all was blamed on me. He is slowly starting to realize this and actually has made comments recently to this effect that he doesn't know why he said that. He would help me and advice me on my business. Suggest the things I needed to do, etc. For months and months he has denied any depression during this time, but during MC she addressed it and he for the first time said he was depressed but can't stand to admit it bc he has lots of pride and blah blah.

Him starting to "see" this is helping me in my process. I'm not good with saying my own words, but I work with music and I jam to the Nicki Minaj "Fly" song LOTS- it's my new life motto. 

I won't be the same. Ever. I'm guarded now and I won't let my heart ever get soft. But I DO hope we get back to the place where I can look at him someday with the trust and respect I once had. Otherwise I'm wasting time on working on R.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Ingalls said:


> OMG I've been gone for a week from TAM (well reading bits and pieces when I can on the road). 6 pages on this topic took me a while this morning to catch up. I am SOOO GLAD YOU POSTED THIS KK. I hate it. I struggle with this Q daily.
> 
> I'm not sure why, but something inside me has "clicked" and for me I decided that my H was not himself. I got the ILYBINILWY speach on DDay. My time towards my business drove him away, all was blamed on me. He is slowly starting to realize this and actually has made comments recently to this effect that he doesn't know why he said that. He would help me and advice me on my business. Suggest the things I needed to do, etc. For months and months he has denied any depression during this time, but during MC she addressed it and he for the first time said he was depressed but can't stand to admit it bc he has lots of pride and blah blah.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure you ever get full trust back, do you?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> *
> Now be a man, or a women and OWN IT. As a man who has grown to believe what Ive said above, I will and I will assign accountability to anyone who chooses to hurt rather than choosing to love yet hides behind that word. I have done it, and Im sorry. I lied. I didn't love them.*


*

This is so true.

The meaning of love within a marriage is not plastic. It is firm and forsakes all others. 

There is no need to marry today. No stigma to being single or having children without a spouse.

So, if one can not honor marriage vows, why marry. Is it insecurity or selfishness, is that why they marry. 

My husband when in the fog told me He loved me as his wife, but not as a lover. WTF.

Now, he claims he never said that, WTF. 

He also saved some of her clothing, and when he misplaced it he accused me of finding it and throwing it out. I did not find it, but was hurt by this information and accusation. 

He was in love and in lust, too. 

But while he was boffing her, he did not and could not love me. He had fallen out of love with me and in love with her. 

Now that he realizes what skank ho she truly is. A mother who neglects her children to cheat on her husband. A woman who is a serial cheater and uses her husband.... he now claims to hate her. Hmmmm, it's been said that you can only hate someone you love. 

I don't hate her. I think she's a skank ho, but hate takes too much energy

I hate my husband sometimes for cheating, and sometimes I still love him. 

I don't hate ex boyfriends I was not in love with because I did not want to marry them and was glad when those relationships ended. I did not save momentos of our time together, either*


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> *Love is the great subjective.
> *


*

Indeed




The loose defintion that each person gets to manipulate, what 'love' means to them... What if I punch you in the face, for no reason, as hard as I can? and I tell you that I did it because I love you... Can you argue? No, you can't. I get to define it. But my action was not a loving action right? So by the same account, I think its absurd for you to claim you loved someone that you hurt so deeply.

Click to expand...

You do realize one can love someone while being incredibly selfish at the same time yes?
I stole money from my mom fairly regularly when I was a kid.
I must not have loved her while I was stealing that money.
My feelings for her ceased to exist when my hand was in her purse I suppose?
It`s more likely my love for her was put on the back burner while my self centered actions took the stage.
Doesn`t mean I didn`t love her.




But that is not love, in that moment or those moments you did not love your wife.

Click to expand...

That`s bull****.

In that moment he wasn`t thinking of his wife.
Has no bearing on his love, just his morality.




Love is an action and you did not love her when you did this.

Click to expand...

No, love is not an "action".

Love is an emotion that inspires action.
Love is a chemical reaction running along the neural pathways of an organism.
This is objective truth, has been substantiated.




Now be a man, or a women and OWN IT. As a man who has grown to believe what Ive said above, I will and I will assign accountability to anyone who chooses to hurt rather than choosing to love yet hides behind that word. I have done it, and Im sorry. I lied. I didn't love them.

Click to expand...

Your experience isn`t mine nor is it anyone/everyone elses.*


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Yes, you can love them but perhaps not enough not to have cheated on them.

Sometimes people get weak. But to keep doing it means you don't love them enough and you don't deserve them.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

> Can your spouse truly love you but still cheat on you?


No

End of story


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

vellocet said:


> No
> 
> End of story


This is a zombie thread, but I'll toss in my two cents anyway. I agree with vellocet that a WS cannot *truly* love the BS and cheat at the same time. But in many cases they *think* they do, and getting inside this thought process is valuable to the BS, it seems to me, especially if R is on the table.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I'm not so sure this is something that is as black and white as it seems. It depends on the type of cheating I guess. Sometimes people have strong feelings for the AP and sometimes they don't.

I can honestly say I never really felt the same about anyone else when I strayed. Meaning I never felt more strongly about anyone than I did my wife. To this day I maintain that I always loved her. I was just too stupid to see it.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

My ex was a control freak and I believe I was in her life because she felt safe with me. But feeling safe does not equate to love. She may have loved what I provided for her. loved that I was a the father of her kids. Loved the security I provided. But love me as a person? I do not think so. Yes I understand getting the warm fuzzies of an affair might confuse someone who loved their spouse BUT I believe the minute you drop your pants or panties to the floor - you KNOW betrayal is going on and then the DECISION as to whether you loved your spouse kicks in. If it proceeds - I would say they did not love the spouse. this whole dopamine talk is only after they had sex..it ignores the choices made going down the path. 
My ex was involved for sometime with her dude and she had plenty of opportunity to show me she loved me and not only did not do it but continued to chose the other person. Not very loving.THEN she actively lied to our two children and then ramped up every misdeed I EVER did to justify her affair. I do not know how people define love..but in my books..this is NOT love by ANY definition. Sorry - not buying the whole "was not in my right mind" excuse.


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