# Need Help From Former "Nice Guys" Who Became Better Men



## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

My marriage is in trouble, obviously, has been for a year (that I knew of) and was likely for quite a bit longer than that. 

Here is the thread talking about what I'm going through right now

I'm tired of feeling like the victim, I'm tired of trying to "buy" my wife's affection through good deeds, purchasing items, back rubs, etc, tired of trying to "fix" her. I want to get control over this relationship. I have been a wimpy sack of a man this entire last year since I found out my wife wasn't happy, I need to find a way to break this cycle. I am reading No More Mr Nice Guy and it is a great book, also reading that married man's sex life primer but I think I need to worry more about the "Mr Nice Guy" routine than anything. 

Before this last year I was the nice guy that didn't spend enough time worrying about my wife and our relationship, although I'd do anything for her if she asked. But this past year since she gave me the "I don't know if I love you" speech, I've fallen to the point of allowing her to be the center of my emotional needs, instead of having a collection of things (including her of course) that I care about meeting those needs.

My work has suffered, I can't focus, add to that my job is in jeopardy come this fall due to government budget cutbacks (I am an active duty Soldier), and the stress and anxiety is killing me. I currently take Celexa daily, and Ativan/Lorazipam as needed. She has repeatedly said she wants out, that she's "done", and I can't bring up anything we disagree about anymore without her going that route. She has also even re'written the past to somehow gloss over her own poor financial decisions and somehow make those my fault also.

I would say I want to be normal, but obviously my idea of normal was a year ago, and that wasn't working. Please help me, not just for my marriage but more importantly for me... if you've had success kicking the "nice guy" to the curb, I need all the pointers I can get.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

I'm working on it too. It's years of bad habits to break. Not easy. I'm doing pretty well with it, but yeah, have slipped some too. I use a lot of self-talk to get me through most days with it.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Basically it revolves around confidence, maturity, strength, and self-respect. In particular your actions should be PRO-SOCIAL (e.g. warmth, compassion but especially PROTECTIVE) and DOMINANT (NOTE: not in the sense of bullying but in the sense of in-charge, in-control). As well as David DeAngelos and Chase Amante's stuff, there is an absolutely fantastic must read at this link. If you read nothing else, read this. Work on what's called your "inner game" in the PUA/seduction community.

On Dominance


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## LFC (Jul 14, 2010)

Po12345 said:


> My marriage is in trouble, obviously, has been for a year (that I knew of) and was likely for quite a bit longer than that.
> 
> Here is the thread talking about what I'm going through right now
> 
> ...


I'm probably not the best one too give advice but I think the idea is to gain control of yourself and not the relationship .


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

GetTough said:


> Basically it revolves around confidence, maturity, strength, and self-respect. In particular your actions should be PRO-SOCIAL (e.g. warmth, compassion but especially PROTECTIVE) and DOMINANT (NOTE: not in the sense of bullying but in the sense of in-charge, in-control). As well as David DeAngelos and Chase Amante's stuff, there is an absolutely fantastic must read at this link. If you read nothing else, read this. Work on what's called your "inner game" in the PUA/seduction community.
> 
> On Dominance


Holy crap, that guy is wild haha. I don't think I could ever be like that but I do like his approach to 'asking' his wife to do things.

One question for you guys, how do I react to my wife disagreeing with me or not wanting to do something, or saying "no" to something I want to do? Right now we are on total eggshells around one another, even with her away for 2 weeks I want to somehow get that fixed. This has been a major source of her discomfort with me because I've been rather emo about shxt and I'm tired of being like that.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

LFC said:


> I'm probably not the best one too give advice but I think the idea is to gain control of yourself and not the relationship .


I realize that but I do want to save my family too, I believe that both goals are quite attainable if I regain some focus and control over my life. Believe me, I am only now truly seeing where I've made some major blunders in my life, at 39 years old I am going to fix them.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Po12345 said:


> Holy crap, that guy is wild haha. I don't think I could ever be like that but I do like his approach to 'asking' his wife to do things.
> 
> One question for you guys, how do I react to my wife disagreeing with me or not wanting to do something, or saying "no" to something I want to do? Right now we are on total eggshells around one another, even with her away for 2 weeks I want to somehow get that fixed. This has been a major source of her discomfort with me because I've been rather emo about shxt and I'm tired of being like that.


If you can do (whatever it is) on your own, just do it, regardless of her. Don't even ask. If you need your wife's permission or she has some control, again don't even ask unless you absolutely have no choice. You're not needy, remember? You need NOTHING from her, that's the ideal you're aiming for. She is leaving the marriage and disrespecting you. You do not withhold your cooperation out of spite you do it because you need to respect yourself and not reward her behavior. Don't argue with her. Have minimum contact. She has checked out, make her work for your time and attention, i.e. make her initiate all communication. Do the 180. Being nice WILL backfire. I go by the handle GetTough because it means something. It's meant to help guys in your position. Do everything you can to feel like you actually WANT her out of your life. Paradoxically that is your best chance of getting the choice back.

Being on total eggshells around each other is NOT a bad thing in your situation. For two reasons: 1) She needs to feel uncomfortable for what she is doing and 2) You need to show you are strong enough to handle the discomfort. Say nothing to her. Embrace the discomfort. (btw this is a walk in the park compared to the sh1t storm that you might have to embrace in future weeks). Do NOT try to fix ANY of this, or fix anything to do with your relationship with her, do NOT start a convo with her about ANYTHING. Make her chase you for stuff NOT vice versa. Then reject EVERYTHING she wants except that which is clearly in your interests. Make it clear to her that you want nothing but space from her. Remember those things! Brush her off until she decides (without ANY prompting from you) that she wants to work on the marriage again. That is your BEST and possibly ONLY chance. You have to REALLY stand up for yourself and take issue with her actions by STRONGER actions, not words.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Whew, GetTough... okay, I will work hard on that. The only rough part of that is that it is kind of what got us into trouble in the first place a little over a year ago, I quit talking to her for 48 hours because I was so pissed off at her about something, and right after that she told me she didn't feel like she was in love with me anymore.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Po12345 said:


> One question I do have, have any of you succeeded in turning from "NICE GUY" to a more productive, balanced man, and if so, how did you do it?


By coming up with a personal code of conduct and following it.

By letting my wife go. I could NOT be the man I want to be or have the relationship I want to have ... with her. Tragic. Sad. True.

Getting comfortable with being the kind of guy that I used to openly NOT want to be; assertive, confident, calmly confrontational when necessary, and at ease with expressing my desires and expectations.

Completely re-writing my internal script for how I perceive and interact with women.

And throughout all of it, I don't feel like I changed who I am. I changed how I behave. I learned the behaviors that made me a NG, so I chose to unlearn them and pick up some new ones.

Took about 2 years, to feel like I had truly internalized it.


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

Deejo said:


> By coming up with a personal code of conduct and following it.
> 
> By letting my wife go. I could NOT be the man I want to be or have the relationship I want to have ... with her. Tragic. Sad. True.
> 
> ...


:iagree: And this, gentlemen, is exactly how you go from being a nice guy to a tough cookie


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

*sigh* 

I know that is an outcome i have to prepare for, not accept, but just be ready just in case. I do not know where everything went wrong, I just know we've gone way down a road we should have never found ourselves on. So getting back means going in a direction that will be hard. 

Oddly enough Deejo, Mumford and Sons is one of my wife's favorite bands.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Po12345 said:


> Oddly enough Deejo, Mumford and Sons is one of my wife's favorite bands.


Will be honest with you, based upon some of the language you have quoted her as using ... ILYBNILWY, never was, and have been very unhappy for a long time are all tried and true hallmarks of an affair. That is something you may also need to prepare for and accept.

You are thinking of ways to save your marriage. She is going away and thinking about ways to leave it.

Don't delude yourself. You can't 'win' her back. Not now. And particularly not if she is focused on someone else. All you really can do? Demonstrate that you are quite capable of conducting your life without her. 

At the point in time when the woman you love screws up the courage to tell you that she doesn't love you, and moreover, questions if she ever did; more often than not, she already has your replacement in mind. Sounds like your spouse has already covered this ground. I don't say that with bitterness.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Po12345 said:


> Whew, GetTough... okay, I will work hard on that. The only rough part of that is that it is kind of what got us into trouble in the first place a little over a year ago, I quit talking to her for 48 hours because I was so pissed off at her about something, and right after that she told me she didn't feel like she was in love with me anymore.


If she wants to talk, just listen coolly. Anything that's obvious you take issue with (which will be nearly everything she says these days)... or if she's just wasting your time, just end the discussion, or don't respond. Don't initiate much if at all. End conversations that are obviously going nowhere quickly. Just refuse to have discussions that are not in your interests, which are going to be nearly all discussions from this point forward. SO... the sooner you start brushing her aside, refusing to get drawn into argument, the better. Remember, if she wants to talk to fix things you'll know about it soon enough. It is near impossible to find anything to say that will change her mind right now. Nearly everything else you feel like you want to say to her at the moment just damages your interests. Anything you say to help her destroy your family loses her respect for you. Anything you say that doesn't help her just gets you into an argument.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> One question for you guys, how do I react to my wife disagreeing with me or not wanting to do something, or saying "no" to something I want to do? Right now we are on total eggshells around one another, even with her away for 2 weeks I want to somehow get that fixed. This has been a major source of her discomfort with me because I've been rather emo about shxt and I'm tired of being like that.


I'm doing XXX. You're welcome to come along.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

GetTough said:


> If she wants to talk, just listen coolly. Anything that's obvious you take issue with (which will be nearly everything she says these days)... or if she's just wasting your time, just end the discussion, or don't respond. Don't initiate much if at all. End conversations that are obviously going nowhere quickly. Just refuse to have discussions that are not in your interests, which are going to be nearly all discussions from this point forward. SO... the sooner you start brushing her aside, refusing to get drawn into argument, the better. Remember, if she wants to talk to fix things you'll know about it soon enough. It is near impossible to find anything to say that will change her mind right now. Nearly everything else you feel like you want to say to her at the moment just damages your interests. Anything you say to help her destroy your family loses her respect for you. Anything you say that doesn't help her just gets you into an argument.


If you need a catch phrase it's this.

You were not sent to this earth to own HER chaos. 

Leave the long-winded pleasing explanations of things at the curb. Talk less. Do more.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Deejo said:


> Will be honest with you, based upon some of the language you have quoted her as using ... ILYBNILWY, never was, and have been very unhappy for a long time are all tried and true hallmarks of an affair. That is something you may also need to prepare for and accept.
> 
> You are thinking of ways to save your marriage. She is going away and thinking about ways to leave it.
> 
> ...


The "other man" is a married man in Toronto who screwed her over some 14 years ago. I do not believe she ever got fully over him. They met up online, she went to see him, they had sex, he disappeared, completely, no phone calls, no emails, then several weeks later he shows up again online, this time with a model girlfriend, apologizing and such. 

She has tried in the past to get past him, I know this from that journal of hers I found. She curses herself for still having feelings for him, however she could never fully pull the trigger on completely letting him go. Then, f'ing Facebook... they became friends on there, I don't know when, didn't really care because I trusted her, it was no big deal. Then during her trip to Arizona she went to go see him, came back ready to end the marriage, hid her visit with him, lied to me about it twice.

the only reason I know she didn't sleep with him is from the same journal, where she says she ended up in the bathroom bawling her eyes out scared out of her mind as to "why am I here???" sort of thing. She was so angry when I read that journal too. The guy is married with two kids but I think he does this sort of crap all the time (screws around on his wife on business trips). She talked to me one night about how "I guess he was never the person I thought he was" sort of conversation. But that doesn't change the fact that she has a completely unhealthy obsession with him, and it's fixated on this perfect idea of what he is, an man in her imagination that doesn't exist, a man I can't compete with because obviously I'm not perfect.

Oh, and not that maybe it makes any difference at this point, she says she was in love with me at one time and she wants to get back to that feeling again... so there wasn't a "never was", a little silver lining I guess.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

The "married guy in Toronto" was not married when they first met up years and years ago.

I am trying hard guys, but mornings are my worst, I just want to crawl up into a ball and disappear. I wanted to be the "family man" and enjoy time with my wife and kids, and have that perfect house and job, and now everything is in such turmoil. I see my kids, and the idea of not having them around every day hurts so badly.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

So, round-up on today. I have not texted her or called her, and I'm going to be trying very hard not to call her tonite. No, check that, I will NOT call her tonite, guaranteed. She can call. If it was just her that would be one thing but I do want to talk to my children.

She's called twice tonite, I'm not going to play my usual RUN TO THE PHONE, I am watching a movie and I'll call her back when it's over.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Po12345 said:


> So, round-up on today. I have not texted her or called her, and I'm going to be trying very hard not to call her tonite. No, check that, I will NOT call her tonite, guaranteed. She can call. If it was just her that would be one thing but I do want to talk to my children.
> 
> She's called twice tonite, I'm not going to play my usual RUN TO THE PHONE, I am watching a movie and I'll call her back when it's over.


Sounds like you're making a big improvement in your interactions with her. That's great. You may start to notice small changes in her that give you hope and thus cause you to weaken. Try not to let them affect you. Keep up the path you're on. Don't show your interest in her until she shows strong, irrefutable interest in reconciliation. If you show your interest in her, you will quite likely blow all the good work.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I talked to her finally around 10 tonite, or an hour or so after she called. All I did was talked about what i did today, nothing mopey, no "how have you been" or "I sure miss you" or any of that, I saved that for the kids, then I told her I had to get going, stayed in control of the call. then when we hung up, she got stuck with the "I love you" awkward comment, which was actually empowering, I did respond back with "Love you too"

This is certainly NOT easy, I'll say that much heh.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Po12345 said:


> I talked to her finally around 10 tonite, or an hour or so after she called. All I did was talked about what i did today, nothing mopey, no "how have you been" or "I sure miss you" or any of that, I saved that for the kids, then I told her I had to get going, stayed in control of the call. then when we hung up, she got stuck with the "I love you" awkward comment, which was actually empowering, I did respond back with "Love you too"
> 
> This is certainly NOT easy, I'll say that much heh.


Wow already she gave you hope like I thought she would and you jumped through her hoop. But it's probably FALSE HOPE. She's SH1T-TESTING you. (read up on women's sh1t-tests) Damn man, you messed up here. Now she's had it reconfirmed you're still plan B. I don't want to be too tough on you because I know this is really really hard. I've been there. I know how tough this is for you. But you have to brush her off.

You messed up in two big ways.

1) talking about your day - none of her business, she is leaving you! What right does she have to know? This may sound vindictive but it's not - it's tactical. If you left her, what would you think if she was pally and talked to you about her day? That she couldn't let you go!!! She KNOWS you are being pally with her because you want her back. That is the EXACT OPPOSITE signal that you want to send.

2) telling her you loved her - sheesh. this was an even bigger screw up. You HAVE to make her think she's losing you, not that you're willing to be her fallback if her other options don't work out.

Telling her you had to go was great, that was STRONG. But I think you were only about 10% as strong as you could have been on this call. It should have been

What are you calling about?
Her: blah blah.
OK (quickly, decisively reject or accept what she wants, usually reject).
I'm going now.
Her: I love you.
You: (hang up).


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

This is progressive for me... 

Before I would have been mopey and sad and tried to slow the call down. Believe me this stuff isn't easy.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Po12345 said:


> This is progressive for me...
> 
> Before I would have been mopey and sad and tried to slow the call down. Believe me this stuff isn't easy.


I know. My thoughts are with you. I know how hard it must be to deal with everything right now. If you just remember to focus on yourself each day, health, finance, relationships other than your wife, e.g. friends etc, and put all of that before her, you'll be on the right track. Like other posters have said, she's got to "own her own chaos", until such a time as she's clear what she wants. Don't help her cope with her own chaos. Let her deal with it. She left you, you've got to show her that really means she's on her own now, and what the full implications are.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Conrad said:


> If you need a catch phrase it's this.
> 
> You were not sent to this earth to own HER chaos.
> 
> Leave the long-winded pleasing explanations of things at the curb. Talk less. Do more.


Word
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Help me be strong today everyone.... I am so damn lonely right now. And for the first time today I noticed she has several of "his" friends now friended on Facebook, it has likely been that way for some time but I never knew who they were, never had reason to care, except it caught my eye today.  

I do not understand how someone can be so f'ing uncaring and cruel to their spouse, I may have done some foolish things early on but she's gone well beyond anything I have done.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> Help me be strong today everyone.... I am so damn lonely right now. And for the first time today I noticed she has several of "his" friends now friended on Facebook, it has likely been that way for some time but I never knew who they were, never had reason to care, except it caught my eye today.
> 
> I do not understand how someone can be so f'ing uncaring and cruel to their spouse, I may have done some foolish things early on but she's gone well beyond anything I have done.


Is she going to meet him during her trip?


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

No, she is staying at her parent's place on the lake. I don't know that they will ever meet up again, her and him, but that isn't the issue at this point. She deleted and blocked my family and friends and has developed such an obsession about him, denies it, and now adds his friends onto her FB. 

I am honestly trying to NOT care, to get to a point where I can point to the god D door and say "there you go, you opened it, now feel free to leave", but it is so incredibly hard, the picture of my children keeps popping up in my mind. 

If my wife were able to be honest in counseling that is one thing, but at this point she doesn't even seem to be honest with herself. This is just ridiculous.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Po12345 said:


> Help me be strong today everyone.... I am so damn lonely right now. And for the first time today I noticed she has several of "his" friends now friended on Facebook, it has likely been that way for some time but I never knew who they were, never had reason to care, except it caught my eye today.
> 
> I do not understand how someone can be so f'ing uncaring and cruel to their spouse, I may have done some foolish things early on but she's gone well beyond anything I have done.



It's a combination of emotional trauma, rationalizing, justifying, anger, and needing to force you to let go that causes this cruelty. Give her PLENTY of space. Try to be the guy that can take the hits and not return ANY, just stoic indifference, nonchalance. Rebuild your life as though she doesn't exist, until the woman you knew beings to return, which is possible. Things will never be quite the same, but things can and will get better for you.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LFC said:


> I'm probably not the best one too give advice but I think the idea is to gain control of yourself and not the relationship .


That is exactly right. NMMNG is not relationship advice, it is advice for finding the courage and self-confidence to stand up for yourself, be in control of yourself, and build the life you desire. By being assertive and genuine, you are more likely to attract people who like the real you and will advocate politely but firmsly for yourself when those inevitable conflicts happen, making it more likely that you will get the happiness you seek.

Never forget also that the marriage may still fail even as you become a better person. There may be too much resentment, your wife's real issues may not be evident, or she might resent that you are standing up for yourself and not under her control.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> No, she is staying at her parent's place on the lake. I don't know that they will ever meet up again, her and him, but that isn't the issue at this point. She deleted and blocked my family and friends and has developed such an obsession about him, denies it, and now adds his friends onto her FB.
> 
> I am honestly trying to NOT care, to get to a point where I can point to the god D door and say "there you go, you opened it, now feel free to leave", but it is so incredibly hard, the picture of my children keeps popping up in my mind.
> 
> If my wife were able to be honest in counseling that is one thing, but at this point she doesn't even seem to be honest with herself. This is just ridiculous.


Be a man, remind yourself that she feels special, but so would any woman that got close to you - and if they appreciated you for the man you can and will be, that would feel even more special. Whether it's your wife, or if she doesn't realize what a man you are and moves on, then there will be a woman who will.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Too much stuff


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> My open letter to her that I can't send but I have to get this off my chest:
> 
> Dear Sweety,
> 
> I hope things are going okay at your mom's, I really do miss you and the kids. I have been doing a lot of thinking about some of the things we talked about before you left and I really believe I need to clarify a few things.


Just so you know, it's hard to read much further than this without jumping to the conclusion that you're talking like a pansy and any woman would see this start, and the length of the rest of it, and read no further.

I checked with my wife for a second opinion. She concurs.

I used to write these long letters. The length is a turn-off by itself.

I tell you this with all the best intentions in the world. I think you knew already what I'm telling you and that's why you knew better than to send it.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

WillK said:


> Just so you know, it's hard to read much further than this without jumping to the conclusion that you're talking like a pansy and any woman would see this start, and the length of the rest of it, and read no further.
> 
> I checked with my wife for a second opinion. She concurs.
> 
> ...


Exactly, that's why I wanted to get it off my chest, to clear my own head and get the crap out. I know it turned into a book, this was mostly for me.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

I know that you are not planning on sending this, but you need to fix the mindset you have in this letter.

First, you are telling her she is wrong to have her feelings. Pretty sure you communicate that to her already, and it is a no go. You can't argue away what she feels. Listen to her, ask a couple of general, high level questions to better understand (when she says "that makes me angry" perhaps ask what is she angry about (the action, the situation, the person) and what about it makes her angry) then tell her you need to think about this. To do otherwise really risks dismissing her as a person.

You also need to fix this:



Po12345 said:


> I need you now more than I ever have.


You don't need her. You want her, because you love her, and that is perfectly understandable. But you don't need her. You will live if she leaves you. It will be painful and likely not a lot of fun, but you will live. You need to recognize that. Being at that place is strength and respect for yourself that you need. Despite what people say, including the movies, people don't want someone that needs them. They do want someone that wants and desires them. But need becomes clingly and unattractive. It looses respect.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

K... having read that, sounds like it is worse than I realized. She isn't just untrustworthy romanticly, she's untrustworthy financially. You gotta take charge of both of those.

You've got a list of things that need to be done.
You need to be getting credit reporting that comes to your e-mail about her.
You need to get her e-mail and facebook passwords, and make sure that they're set up to notify your e-mail of any changes.
One checking account.
Take away her cards. Any she doesn't give you that show up on her credit report, they get closed.
If she can't or won't close them get your name added onto them so you have control.

She doesn't want any of this, out the door.

Nobody needs somebody out of control. What you need is to prune the toxic branches of the family tree.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I know that you are not planning on sending this, but you need to fix the mindset you have in this letter.
> 
> First, you are telling her she is wrong to have her feelings. Pretty sure you communicate that to her already, and it is a no go. You can't argue away what she feels. Listen to her, ask a couple of general, high level questions to better understand (when she says "that makes me angry" perhaps ask what is she angry about (the action, the situation, the person) and what about it makes her angry) then tell her you need to think about this. To do otherwise really risks dismissing her as a person.


So what is the better purpose? To tell her that "I understand you are confused about your feelings but you cannot maintain contact with this man and expect our marriage to succeed" sort of thing? If you are talking about the financial aspect, that is not about feelings, all of that is fact. So if she "feels" that she was in control of her finances, I won't stand for that aspect of it. Feelings about someone are one thing, it is a grey area and difficult to define. Feelings about financial matters however, that can be set down on paper in black and white and stated out factually. Feelings aren't about facts. 



> You also need to fix this:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't need her. You want her, because you love her, and that is perfectly understandable. But you don't need her. You will live if she leaves you. It will be painful and likely not a lot of fun, but you will live. You need to recognize that. Being at that place is strength and respect for yourself that you need. Despite what people say, including the movies, people don't want someone that needs them. They do want someone that wants and desires them. But need becomes clingly and unattractive. It looses respect.



So instead of "I need you more than ever" be more on the approach of "I want you in my life, to help us get through these tough times"? Again, not going to tell her any of this, certainly not right now, just trying to get stronger for the future. And to recognize the mistakes I have made up to this point.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

WillK said:


> Just so you know, it's hard to read much further than this without jumping to the conclusion that you're talking like a pansy and any woman would see this start, and the length of the rest of it, and read no further.
> 
> I checked with my wife for a second opinion. She concurs.
> 
> ...


I bolded this part because it's important. The fact that you are writing so much means that you can't get over her, you can't get control of your emotions and you want to remain invested in her. None of these things are what she wants. She wants you to move on. You have to try to do what she wants if you want the best chance of getting her back. Don't even think about sending it, it won't help you!


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> So what is the better purpose? ...
> 
> So instead of "I need you more than ever" be more on the approach of "I want you in my life, to help us get through these tough times"? Again, not going to tell her any of this, certainly not right now, just trying to get stronger for the future. And to recognize the mistakes I have made up to this point.


I tried outlining, so let's try another way. Here's something closer to the letter you need.

Things are a mess now, and for too long I've sat by as you've taken the control where I should've. That's my mistake, and it changes now. Here is my plan.

I'm the man in this family, and I will take charge of that role. I will not ask if anyone wants to out for dinner, I will suggest where to go to dinner. So too will be my approach in a great many things.

The fact that I have not been the man of the family does not make it okay to seek for someone else to fill that role. Because that trust needs to be re-established, I insist that I have access and control over the tools you have used to contact men outside of this family. You will allow me to view your e-mail, facebook and phone any time I wish. You will provide all passwords. You will stop deleting information before I see it. You will not attempt to circumfent any notifications I set up to ensure you follow these rules.

You may choose not to agree to this, and this choice will tell me that you are not interested in being a part of this family.

Anyone with whom I deem you have been in contact inapropriately, you will inform them under my supervision that there shall be no further contact.

Our finances are a mess, and I will create a budget. You will hand over all credit cards. I will monitor your credit to ensure you do not open new credit cards. Based on our budget, you can have your budgetted amount provided in an envelope in cash to help you stick to the budget. If paying down of debts is out of reach in any budget, I will initiate a consultation with a bankruptcy lawyer.

Once these basic things are under control, I will continue to take the initiative and you will see that with my empowerment will come the responsibility to use it for the good of the family.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Po12345 said:


> So what is the better purpose? To tell her that "I understand you are confused about your feelings but you cannot maintain contact with this man and expect our marriage to succeed" sort of thing? If you are talking about the financial aspect, that is not about feelings, all of that is fact. So if she "feels" that she was in control of her finances, I won't stand for that aspect of it. Feelings about someone are one thing, it is a grey area and difficult to define. Feelings about financial matters however, that can be set down on paper in black and white and stated out factually. Feelings aren't about facts.


See, you are doing it again. You assigning black and white outcomes to her feelings. Just because the facts don't support it does not mean she is not feeling that she was in control. You have no idea is she feels this, and to dismiss it is treating her like a child. You don't have to agree that she is correct in her conclusions. But just listening to her without comment shows that you respect her and her feelings enough to actually listen. All you have to say is I understand that this is the way you feel.



> So instead of "I need you more than ever" be more on the approach of "I want you in my life, to help us get through these tough times"? Again, not going to tell her any of this, certainly not right now, just trying to get stronger for the future. And to recognize the mistakes I have made up to this point.


Yes, but it is the mindset, not the imaginary letter, that you need to focus on. You need to get to the point that you really truly can live without her and that you don't "need" her. Because when you "need" her, you have to put up with all of the unhealthy crap, regardless of any benefit. When you want her, then you can weigh the good, the bad, and her efforts to make it good, and then decide what is healthy.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

*Willk -* I appreciate the input as far as the financial stuff but right now I am not in any position to really demand anything from her. She believes she is right, that her viewpoints are factual and that I screwed up her financial "stability" when we first got together. I know this is not true, however trying to argue with her about it is not going to get me anywhere when she seems to have a foot out the door and she is already waivering so much on whether or not she even wants to be with me. The last thing I need to do is "Hey, I know you are really unsure about us right now, but I need you to hand over your credit cards and all your bank accounts to me". Until she realizes she has a problem with money that would never work, especially in the current situation. If we were stronger right now in our relationship, with more trust, in a loving caring situation, that would likely be excellent advice though.

==============================================

Again, I have no intention of sending the letter. I needed to get it out and off my chest. That's why I posted it here, I've removed it now because it feels better to have gotten it out in the open and it's probably better to not have it just sitting here festering or available so to speak (the long letter I wrote).

================================================

*TallAverageGuy *- She has brought up the financial situation when we got together maybe 3 times in the last couple months. The first time I tried to explain why that wasn't right but the last couple of times I just let her go with it and didn't argue or anything. 

It is very frustrating though when someone you love decides to make an already difficult situation that is going on in the present even more problematic by dredging up the past, and reassigning blame by twisting the facts. I'm trying very hard to get over what happened before we got married in 2005, believe me there is plenty that I did wrong during that time by hanging onto an ex girlfriend, never did anything with her but talking to her late at night on the phone and such really hurt my wife-to-be. 

I apologized so often for it back then, and she told me she forgave me, but only now do I realize just how much resentment she carries towards me, either that or she uses my actions then to justify her actions now. But, even with that being said, I have to realize none of this financial stuff or ex gf stuff from the past actually matters, if she wants to dwell on that, let her, just tell her 'I understand you feel that way, what do we need to do to get past that?' instead of fighting with her on it. 

Meeting with the marriage counselor yesterday, he gave me several things to work on:

1- I am not a victim, I'm not that fragile, and work on "What keeps me strong?"

2- Focus on a strong sense of self instead of fear.

3- THINK (rational not emotional)

4- I don't need my wife to BE a certain way for me to be healthy - my own health comes from within.

5- The more I cling, the more she is driven away. The less I need her, the more she wants to stay. 

6- Be who I am, be available, be assertive, be loving. Less about her, other than letting her know you want her, you don't need her.

It was a very good session, he addressed fear a lot, which seems to be a driving force against me right now. Today didn't start off very good, I woke up at 6 a.m. with some pretty severe anxiety. I'm having a lot of trouble leaving the house, which is really strange for me, before this all happened I was able to do so much on my own, I used to go on long runs by myself, long bike rides, now I can't seem to do that and my fitness is suffering (as evident by my military PT test faltering just a bit earlier this month). 

I am frustrated with myself for believing that, when all this happened, what I was supposed to do to be a nicer person was to make her the center of my life, and focus on her to be a good husband, but that didn't work, it drove her away further. What I should have done is worked on changing my behaviors that bothered her but leaving the rest of my life the same. It is really hard to believe how badly that first counselor screwed things up for us


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> *Willk -* I appreciate the input as far as the financial stuff but right now I am not in any position to really demand anything from her. She believes she is right, that her viewpoints are factual and that I screwed up her financial "stability" when we first got together. I know this is not true, however trying to argue with her about it is not going to get me anywhere when she seems to have a foot out the door and she is already waivering so much on whether or not she even wants to be with me. The last thing I need to do is "Hey, I know you are really unsure about us right now, but I need you to hand over your credit cards and all your bank accounts to me". Until she realizes she has a problem with money that would never work, especially in the current situation. If we were stronger right now in our relationship, with more trust, in a loving caring situation, that would likely be excellent advice though.


Let me put what you said another way in hopes you'll hear what you're saying. You're saying "I'm going to do exactly the same thing I've always been doing which has led to her having one foot out the door."

If you don't want to demand the cards, fine, do the rest. Tell her plainly that the finances are out of control and you are using the time apart to create a plan, therefore you need enough information to assess the state of all debts held by her. You need all logins for online sites of each card.

Make a list of all debts and all expenses on a monthly basis, average the cost for each utility, total monthly groceries, money spent on gas, and so forth. Take your total monthly income. Take your list of minimum payments on the credit cards.

The money that's left will have a budget for entertainment and miscelaneous, the rest is what pays down debt. Start with the smallest card first, and create a schedule of when each card gets paid off.

I don't know how your finances work, but it's been easy for me to do this because we mostly use debit cards so I have everything on our bank's online banking.

So you present this is how much we're paying to each credit card over the next 12 months or whatever, this is when each of these credit cards gets paid off.

You say the credit cards don't get used, and if there's a point where the debt gets small enough to use the cards in a limitted manner you say when that point is.

If you make this budget and there isn't enough left to pay down debts, then you need to look at what can be cut back.

If that doesn't work, you tell her the debt is beyond our means and the only option to get it under control is to speak with a bankruptcy lawyer.


She's right that you have a part of the responsibility. It's because you are not willing to take charge in the manner I describe. She was out of control and you didn't stop her.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Po12345 said:


> *TallAverageGuy *- She has brought up the financial situation when we got together maybe 3 times in the last couple months. The first time I tried to explain why that wasn't right but the last couple of times I just let her go with it and didn't argue or anything.
> 
> It is very frustrating though when someone you love decides to make an already difficult situation that is going on in the present even more problematic by dredging up the past, and reassigning blame by twisting the facts. I'm trying very hard to get over what happened before we got married in 2005, believe me there is plenty that I did wrong during that time by hanging onto an ex girlfriend, never did anything with her but talking to her late at night on the phone and such really hurt my wife-to-be.
> 
> I apologized so often for it back then, and she told me she forgave me, but only now do I realize just how much resentment she carries towards me, either that or she uses my actions then to justify her actions now. But, even with that being said, I have to realize none of this financial stuff or ex gf stuff from the past actually matters, if she wants to dwell on that, let her, just tell her 'I understand you feel that way, what do we need to do to get past that?' instead of fighting with her on it.


I think this is fine, with the added comment that you need to make sure you quit apologizing. You apologized once. Next time she brings it up, tell her you have apologized and changed your behavior, so you are not discussing it again. If she keeps it up, end the conversation.

Also, start exercising. It is good for you and will help on the stress. Does wonders (a fact I am sure that you now).


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> It is very frustrating though when someone you love decides to make an already difficult situation that is going on in the present even more problematic by dredging up the past, and reassigning blame by twisting the facts. I'm trying very hard to get over what happened before we got married in 2005, believe me there is plenty that I did wrong during that time by hanging onto an ex girlfriend, never did anything with her but talking to her late at night on the phone and such really hurt my wife-to-be.
> 
> I apologized so often for it back then, and she told me she forgave me, but only now do I realize just how much resentment she carries towards me, either that or she uses my actions then to justify her actions now. But, even with that being said, I have to realize none of this financial stuff or ex gf stuff from the past actually matters, if she wants to dwell on that, let her, just tell her 'I understand you feel that way, what do we need to do to get past that?' instead of fighting with her on it.


You have to see this for what it is. In the parlance of Athol Kay this is rationalization hampster. What she's rationalizing is the fact she's not attracted to you.

Don't take it at face value, you're swinging at phantoms if you try to deal with these things she's saying. Deal with the fact that you need to become attractive to her.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Will, it wasn't a matter of me "not stopping her" at that time, she wasn't honest about the credit card debt. She says she was worried about my reaction to finding out about it, I asked her quite plainly "What would be the reaction you would expect any rational person to have when they find out about 7,000 dollars in debt that they did not know existed?". I have other things more pressing at this point, but I do understand the need for some fiscal responsibility too. I need to bring it up in our next session together with the MC.


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## Relationship Coach (Apr 27, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> If my wife were able to be honest in counseling that is one thing, but at this point she doesn't even seem to be honest with herself. This is just ridiculous.


Are you honest with yourself? Have you been your whole life? 

This is one of the harder things in life for people achieve -- true honesty with themselves. No defensiveness. No ego. The brain has all sorts of tricks and shortcuts to fill in a world of meaning and purpose (for survival) that make it really really hard to just "be honest" with oneself, especially after spiraling down a long, loaded road where the person can't let go of any of the events in their timeline. 



Po12345 said:


> Whew, GetTough... okay, I will work hard on that. The only rough part of that is that it is kind of what got us into trouble in the first place a little over a year ago, I quit talking to her for 48 hours because I was so pissed off at her about something, and right after that she told me she didn't feel like she was in love with me anymore.


You want to know how to not be a "nice guy?" You have good advice in this thread, it's just not entirely resonating. Come back to what these other posters have said in a month -- it is strong. Be patient with yourself. You need to go through this right now. 

But if you are ever going to change, the first thing you need to do is start respecting yourself more. YOU! No one else. 

*Why Did You Get Married?
*
Did you marry this woman because it made you unhappy? Did you do it for her at your expense? Or did you get married to try and improve YOUR life? Po - this is still about YOUR life. 

The problems you are having are because you have lost site of that reality. You have signaled to yourself "I don't really care about your happiness very much, I'm going to do a bunch of **** for other people instead." 

Your wife probably didn't find that very attractive. 

Now you're in a mess. OK - people make mistakes. Can you be OK with that? Can you envisage a scenario where in the future, you become a happier person _because_ you finally made so many mistakes it made you wake up one day and say "crap, I need to fix this, for me?"

You say you went 48 hours without talking to your wife. Why? For what possible purpose? 

-you were "sending a message?" 
--this is passive aggressive and tells your wife "I'm incapable of clear communication and expression."

-you were too angry to talk to her?
--this tells your wife you are emotionally unstable and you can't provide what she wants.

And the thing is, you don't get to choose what she wants. All you can choose is how YOU act, and what YOU want. And I assume by coming here you want to be happier...that starts with valuing yourself way more. Not for anyone else -- not even for your kids -- but just for you.



> So instead of "I need you more than ever" be more on the approach of "I want you in my life, to help us get through these tough times"? Again, not going to tell her any of this, certainly not right now, just trying to get stronger for the future. And to recognize the mistakes I have made up to this point.


IMO, you can't say what Wiik suggested because it would be empty. You wouldn't mean it. You wouldn't even understand why you are saying it. 

The most important question here is, *do you really need her more than ever?*

You might. Face that reality, and try and understand why. Because...What on earth is going to happen to you if this woman disappears tomorrow? Or if you never met her? Where you so dependent on her for happiness that you were miserable before you met her??

No one is coming to save you. You will die alone. 

You have to ask yourself why you can't accept that. Why it's so scary being alone. The first thing you should do is curl up in that ball in the morning, feel as much emptiness and loneliness as you can, and then ask yourself what it means. Did you die? Did you make it through the loneliness? Was it really so bad? Can you survive being alone? 

I think you can.

Make a list of why you want this woman in your life romantically. And be as honest as possible with yourself (feel free to publish here or PM, I'll give feedback). Is it because you don't want to be alone? Had a prior EXPECTATION of a family unit? Is it because of your history? What is it exactly that you want from her? 

In the meantime, start doing more activities for yourself. A simple workout is a good place to start. 

Good luck!


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Relationship Coach said:


> Are you honest with yourself? Have you been your whole life?
> 
> This is one of the harder things in life for people achieve -- true honesty with themselves. No defensiveness. No ego. The brain has all sorts of tricks and shortcuts to fill in a world of meaning and purpose (for survival) that make it really really hard to just "be honest" with oneself, especially after spiraling down a long, loaded road where the person can't let go of any of the events in their timeline.


No, I have not been, I denied a lot of my problems to myself for a long time. I didn't want to face up to the fact that I was passive aggressive and that my time in Iraq multiplied the rage I felt when things didn't go my way, it was an immature reaction. I never really yelled at my wife, NEVER EVER hit her (nor would I), but our communication issues would frustrate me and I would react innapropriately.



> You want to know how to not be a "nice guy?" You have good advice in this thread, it's just not entirely resonating. Come back to what these other posters have said in a month -- it is strong. Be patient with yourself. You need to go through this right now.


I am trying, I know that even though it has been more than a year since all of this started, that I have never fully accepted the fact that I need to fix myself and NOT fix her. This is without a doubt the most difficult time in my life, and accepting and trying to repair my own faults has made me realize just how difficult it is for someone to do that, and why I can't force someone else to do it either.



> But if you are ever going to change, the first thing you need to do is start respecting yourself more. YOU! No one else.


I used to, I honestly did, I was so happy in my job, things were going so well, but I wasn't handling things at home the way I should have, now with the major uncertainty in my home life and job, I have a difficult time with the respect thing. I'm working on it more than ever, I now have a journal where I am putting daily goals, trying to avoid clingy needy emo behavior, and what makes me a good strong person. 


> *Why Did You Get Married?
> *
> Did you marry this woman because it made you unhappy? Did you do it for her at your expense? Or did you get married to try and improve YOUR life? Po - this is still about YOUR life.
> 
> ...


I married her because she was my best friend. No relationship had ever actually fulfilled me like ours did. I believed we could improve one another's lives at that time, be being there for one another, by spending quality time together, and raising a family together. And yes I know I need to get back to caring for myself. Instead of feeling broken and victimized I want to feel strong and able to take a leadership role in my own life.


> Now you're in a mess. OK - people make mistakes. Can you be OK with that? Can you envisage a scenario where in the future, you become a happier person _because_ you finally made so many mistakes it made you wake up one day and say "crap, I need to fix this, for me?"


This is where I'm at right now. I still need to work on NOT thinking about her or the issues she is dealing with, that i know, but I've come further than I have this entire last year in realizing that, despite everything going on, regardless of the outcome, this is not the end of the world and I can move on, with or without her, and with or without the job I currently have. 


> You say you went 48 hours without talking to your wife. Why? For what possible purpose?
> 
> -you were "sending a message?"
> --this is passive aggressive and tells your wife "I'm incapable of clear communication and expression."
> ...


I was hurt, I was tired of feeling taken for granted, I couldn't figure out what was going on, I wasn't aware of a lot of the issues and she wasn't telling me much of anything. At the time my priorities were all farked up, I cared so much about a car that doesn't really even matter in the long run. 



> And the thing is, you don't get to choose what she wants. All you can choose is how YOU act, and what YOU want. And I assume by coming here you want to be happier...that starts with valuing yourself way more. Not for anyone else -- not even for your kids -- but just for you.


I know, I am battling the fear and anxiety now, trying very hard to find happiness again.


> IMO, you can't say what Wiik suggested because it would be empty. You wouldn't mean it. You wouldn't even understand why you are saying it.
> 
> The most important question here is, *do you really need her more than ever?*
> 
> You might. Face that reality, and try and understand why. Because...What on earth is going to happen to you if this woman disappears tomorrow? Or if you never met her? Where you so dependent on her for happiness that you were miserable before you met her??


We were both in bad places when we met, and it wasn't the best way to start a relationship. I was living with my parents, she was living alone with a ton of debt building up. We had talked for 7 years online before we met, then six months after we met in person we moved in together. No matter what happens I know I have to move on with this and find a way to be happy on my own, even if we were to remain married I still have to accept myself for who I am and quit blaming myself and others for my feelings. I can say all of this though but it is really hard for me right now 


> No one is coming to save you. You will die alone.
> 
> You have to ask yourself why you can't accept that. Why it's so scary being alone. The first thing you should do is curl up in that ball in the morning, feel as much emptiness and loneliness as you can, and then ask yourself what it means. Did you die? Did you make it through the loneliness? Was it really so bad? Can you survive being alone?
> 
> I think you can.


I know what my issues are with being alone and hating change, I grew up on a dairy farm, spent my first 19 years there. Things didn't change, my grandmother and father did most of the milking, my grandfather tinkered and helped out in the fields, my uncle lived at the farm and handled daily chores with the calves, etc. There was a yearly cycle that reset itself every January. For the first 30 years of my life this never changed, even when I wasn't there I always knew I could go backto the farm and find things the exact way that they were before I left.

This is me speculating of course, I am not a trained professional about these problems I am having but from doing research on my own I came to these conclusions. I tend to blame myself for changes, both at my job and in my personal life, and I can't get over them, and it scares me deeply.


> Make a list of why you want this woman in your life romantically. And be as honest as possible with yourself (feel free to publish here or PM, I'll give feedback). Is it because you don't want to be alone? Had a prior EXPECTATION of a family unit? Is it because of your history? What is it exactly that you want from her?
> 
> In the meantime, start doing more activities for yourself. A simple workout is a good place to start.
> 
> Good luck!


I guess it is hard to answer they "why" question as to my wife right now. When things were going well, I looked forward to spending time with her, we did online gaming, watched sci-fi programs, went to movies, worked out together. We are both artistic and creative, we have gone to art shows together, enjoy outdoor activities like hiking, we love taking long road trips more than flying. It seems I could go on and on with what we enjoyed doing together. 

I was always a very jovial, outgoing person with a strong personality. I would get irritated and frustrated more easily though, I want to work through problems NOW. She was more introverted, quiet, kept a lot to herself and would want to sit on problems rather than get them out in the open. Our personalities in a lot of ways benefited one another because the strengths and weaknesses worked together. 

Now, I also did have a lot of expectations that probably were not done in the correct manner. I do have a fear of being alone (along with the fear of change). I was the oldest of six children, I never have known "alone", this two weeks I'm trying to immerse myself in "self" activities, work on chores around the house, and find reward in my own attitude and behaviors. I am worried about what will happen to my children, she wants to move out of state if we aren't together, because she believes that will make her happy. I don't believe it will but I'm keeping that to myself.

I am trying to do my workouts, I keep coming up with rather dumb excuses to not do them though "too hot, too tired, have to work on something else" etc. But I am getting there. Mornings are very very difficult for me right now though, I don't know if these are the technical term for panic attacks but I am having dreams from my time in Iraq, at times they get twisted around and my family is in the dreams too and I can't save them. I wake up exhausted and sweating profusely. Usually by the afternoon I am doing better, I won't go so far as to say 'good' or anything like that, but I get my heart rate slowed down some. 

I am glad you posted that, because I really did want to go over the ME stuff more so than the HER stuff, even though I know it focused some on both of us.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

One of my biggest problems is finding other outlets for my time now. I know that just getting out by myself isn't enough. My wife and I did most everything together. I am trying to learn how to go out myself and do things with others without her being there. This isn't like going jogging or out for a run, or hiking or some of the other things I used to do myself, this is about feeling confident in public situations, which I think I used to be just fine with but I feel so withdrawn now. I am going out tonite to have some drinks with a couple of friends at their place, which is a big step for me.

Is it normal for someone to develop phobias during times of intense uncertainty? I've never dealt with such things before.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

I got a little catching up.. One point I wanted to make based on what I saw of Relationship Coach's post is that the advice I'm giving - it's what turned things around for me when I read MMSL. *BUT* it was by no means I had heard it for the first time because I read MMSL. I have been married over 10 years. We've been to therapy on 3 occasions prior, not including the therapy we're in at present. MMSL worked exactly because reading the advice the way Athol wrote it made it such that I understood why I need to do the things he and others have been telling me I need to do.

I agree that it's important to understand why our suggestions are needed.



Po12345 said:


> One of my biggest problems is finding other outlets for my time now...


That's part of why I suggested the work to figure out your finances. It's something to occupy your time, it's an activity that doesn't really involve emotion and I don't think it's hard to understand the need for financial stability. I'm an enginer, so it's also possible I take the mathematics involved for granted.


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## Relationship Coach (Apr 27, 2012)

> I know what my issues are with being alone and hating change, I grew up on a dairy farm, spent my first 19 years there. Things didn't change, my grandmother and father did most of the milking, my grandfather tinkered and helped out in the fields, my uncle lived at the farm and handled daily chores with the calves, etc. There was a yearly cycle that reset itself every January. For the first 30 years of my life this never changed, even when I wasn't there I always knew I could go backto the farm and find things the exact way that they were before I left.
> 
> This is me speculating of course, I am not a trained professional about these problems I am having but from doing research on my own I came to these conclusions. I tend to blame myself for changes, both at my job and in my personal life, and I can't get over them, and it scares me deeply.


Hey, that's good stuff. It's hard to defeat a problem without knowing a problem, so this is a great start. Now the question is why do you keep bringing this with you in your present life? Yes, it's a condition you have and it's hard to break, but what have you done to try and break it?

Try to start with small change. Force it on yourself if you have to (haircut, clothes, workout patterns, anything) and just see if you can take it. In the end, CHANGE is the most constant thing in life - there's something preventing you from being comfortable accepting that. It certainly might stem from your upbringing, but now it's deeply rooted in you and your challenge is to slowly grow comfortable with it. 



> Now, I also did have a lot of expectations that probably were not done in the correct manner. I do have a fear of being alone (along with the fear of change). I was the oldest of six children, I never have known "alone", this two weeks I'm trying to immerse myself in "self" activities, work on chores around the house, and find reward in my own attitude and behaviors. I am worried about what will happen to my children, she wants to move out of state if we aren't together, because she believes that will make her happy. I don't believe it will but I'm keeping that to myself.


Worrying about your children is natural, but working on yourself is only going to make you a better father in the long run, so for now you have to accept that things aren't ideal (ie - they could move away or something equally non-ideal). 

It sounds like what you want from your wife primarily is to make it so you aren't alone. Yes, you guys have some decent compatibility -- that's good -- while you also have some differences. My impression is you like a lot about her, but there's also some dependency there because of your fears. 

You might also have PTSD. (Diagnosed? Treated?) I'd recommend exploring that if you haven't -- something like 95% of people who have seen combat have it -- and it can go away with the right attention. I even more strongly recommend not taking drugs as a form of treatment if anyone ever suggests that. 

The workouts have to be for you, you know what I mean? They aren't a chore. You are going to work out because you want to, whether it be fun or to make yourself feel healthier and stronger (or both). 

How's your Blood Pressure and resting Heart Rate? Diet? Sleep? Smoking? Believe it or not, these things have drastic impact on your brain and make it a lot easier to sort through these challenging times more clearly. I recommend some kind of breathwork, yoga, or mindfulness (Shambhala Sun - How to do Mindfulness Meditation) once a week. It helps tremendously. 

Good luck. Stare into the abyss every once in a while...you'll find it's not too scary.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> Will, it wasn't a matter of me "not stopping her" at that time, she wasn't honest about the credit card debt. She says she was worried about my reaction to finding out about it, I asked her quite plainly "What would be the reaction you would expect any rational person to have when they find out about 7,000 dollars in debt that they did not know existed?". I have other things more pressing at this point, but I do understand the need for some fiscal responsibility too. I need to bring it up in our next session together with the MC.


Well... I don't think it's necessary to do any beating up about the past, but she should have been sufficiently open and honest that you'd have known. And because she wasn't and it's a matter of her needing to re-establish trust, she ought to allow you to receive credit monitoring to track and ensure there aren't new accounts being openned. 

When a new credit account is openned it gets reported to the 3 credit bureaus, and each offers services that provide instant updates by e-mail any time some new or changed info gets posted to a credit bureau. This would make it so it's not possible for her to open new cards without you knowing. It has other value by tracking your progress in restoring the credit rating of course.

You might have been able to catch unknown new credit cards by way of tracking the online banking of your checking account to see what monthly bills are getting paid, of course though that assumes she pays the bills. That also sounds like it was a problem, and it is something that would also appear on credit reporting (although this is usually something that shows up a month later instead of real time like openning new credit accounts)

Credit reporting will also provide credit inquiries, so you'll know if she's attempted unsuccessfully to open new credit accounts.


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## Relationship Coach (Apr 27, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> One of my biggest problems is finding other outlets for my time now. I know that just getting out by myself isn't enough. My wife and I did most everything together. I am trying to learn how to go out myself and do things with others without her being there. This isn't like going jogging or out for a run, or hiking or some of the other things I used to do myself, this is about feeling confident in public situations, which I think I used to be just fine with but I feel so withdrawn now. I am going out tonite to have some drinks with a couple of friends at their place, which is a big step for me.
> 
> Is it normal for someone to develop phobias during times of intense uncertainty? I've never dealt with such things before.


Phobias? Well, they can range in intensity. If you're asking is it normal to suddenly be nervous about things you never were, or even stronger emotions, the answer is yes. Like I said, you might have PTSD. You have some other anxieties as well. Sometimes they can manifest in strange ways. 

Or, it's probably something as simple as not feeling very grounded. Things can be strange for a while. Even stuff that used to feel normal. These things are good for you. Try and make it through the uncomfortable stuff. And try and see how much fun you can have doing it. Drinks with your friends sounds great, no?

PS Have you read about dating yourself? I thought about it for you before reading your last post -- it can be quite powerful and might be something you want to explore. For example, it's more than workouts and meals. You literally say "Friday night I'm going to do X activity by myself." It can be simple, like a movie, or complicated like a hike or road trip. It can be incredibly fun...even if it's uncomfortable at first.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

RCoach, I bring up change in my current life because there is so much going on right now that I wasn't expecting to be dealing with. Before 2011 I thought my world was perfect. I was in an ideal marriage, my job was going well, wonderful house, etc. I didn't see things starting to unravel.

You already know about my marriage situation, so I'll try and quickly talk about the rest. I deployed to Iraq in 2005/2006, when I got back I worked on the civilian side for a year, then I was offered military position working full time, promised to be a career position. Shortly after starting I realized I loved it, it was ideal for me, I finally had found something that gave me meaning, making good money, more than 60K a year. I have been there for just over 4 years now.

Then the issues with my wife suddenly happened, and it rocked my world. It hit me like a Mack truck, and everything started falling apart. The dreams about Iraq started, massive anxiety/panic attacks/depression. Through counseling I learned that I had supressed my emotions about combat and leaned on my foundation, which was my marriage. When that foundation cracked, all that pent up emotional instability came out. That in combination with the first bad marriage counselor crashed my feelings of self worth, and I'm still trying to get myself esteem back. 

Added to that, everything about my job changed in the last year. What was an awesome job with career potential has turned into a nightmare for several of us because suddenly funding got cut, due to circumstances we couldn't control. Now there were going to be no offers for career positions and people are starting to be let go. All of us have been scrambling to look elsewhere in the military group for career type jobs, jobs that were likely available to us 2 years ago a lot more readily, but we were lead to believe that staying in our current positions was the best course of action. I am far too loyal to my employers, I always have been, again, perhaps something from my past growing up on the farm. Work hard, get the job done, don't complain, you certainly wouldn't look elsewhere for a job on a family farm (generally anyway). 

So, currently: my orders run out on August 15th. I must take one month off to "reset my time" because you aren't supposed to work more than 3 years straight unless you are in a career position. (They have to have us though to actually do their mission, it is a real mess for everyone). They will bring me back on orders on September 15th for two weeks till the end of the year but after that no one knows what is going to happen, if we will be kept on or not. 

Add to that personnel changes: Our manager went over the deep end due to alcohol and lost his job, he was a great guy, had been there since the beginning. Our senior instructor was in the same situation as us, not knowing what to do, he had also been there since the beginning and in February he quit to go back to his civilian job. Then our overall branch chief retired. They did not replace the senior instructor, and the manager and branch chief replacements are poor leaders. The shine has really come off the job because of that. Seems everyone inside and outside our section sees our branch chief as a POS and that reflects poorly on all of us. 

So, anyways, this is my "abyss". I am currently working hard on my resume to perfect it, I am studying companies in the area to find positions that work well with my strengths, and I'm continuing to work hard at my current position and still applying for military career jobs when they become available. I seem to score in the top 3 every time I interview, but I must be the most qualified guy to never actually get hired heh heh.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

As far as the PTSD, they diagnosed it at the VA but I haven't followed it up very well, I need to do more about it. I am trying to learn to accept myself for who I am, ideally I'd like to get back to who I was before my marriage fractured, except be a nicer person and be less passive aggressive. Obviously I confused that with being overly nice to my wife and that actually made my passive aggressiveness worse because I didn't stand up for myself. 

As far as drugs, they have had me on Celexa for depression since November and I also have a couple of beta blockers for the anxiety stuff. They honestly are working to help me get through until I get past this difficult time in my life, by doing positive things with my life.

I am in good physical shape, I am 6' tall, right around 200 lbs. I am not as fit as I was because I have more difficulty right now getting out and working out (used to be a loner and do that on my own and I have trouble doing the 'loner' stuff now). I keep telling myself I will get out there and run or bike, I just have to DO IT, you know? I've always been a distance runner, I have done 2 marathons, I can still run a two mile in under 14 minutes on most days (under 13 if I've been working out consistently).

I am certain my blood pressure is higher than normal, my resting heart rate sits at about 80 to 90 instead of 55 to 65 like it was before. My body seems to currently be running at 120-150% of normal "speed" so to speak, due to my anxiety issues. I will be 40 in September. I am actually proud that I'm in decent shape. At my heaviest I was at 216 but I was still running, just eating too much.


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

> I'm working on it too. It's years of bad habits to break. Not easy. I'm doing pretty well with it, but yeah, have slipped some too. I use a lot of self-talk to get me through most days with it.


It can be hard and scary to make the transition. Going against ways you've acted with women your entire life. However, for me, once I see how greatly my relationships improved, it became quite easy. The hardest part now is not getting complacent and falling back into old habits because things seem so great.

Number one thing I keep in the front of my mind at all times....this is ultimately about me and my happiness. I will not act contrary to that without good reason. Now, if she has health issues, or brings drama into our life she has no control over (drama for her because of how others act in her life), then I will support her, and my needs and wants do get put on the backburner. However, I will not tolerate her creating drama in our life for the sake of doing so, or treating me less than how I want to be treated. If she is pizzing me off or treating me poorly, she will know it...almost instantly.

She also knows I am not afraid to leave this relationship if things turn sour. Because I am not. And that is important because you can try to correct impropper behavior towards you and your relationship from your woman all you want, but if she feels you will not back up your words with actions, your words won't mean a hill of beans to her.

There is also the componenet of having a life outside of your woman. You need to have an outside interest that does not involve her, and gets you out of the house, and away from each other. As does she. When you both have interests outside of the relationship, it makes it easier for you both to stay focused on keeping the other person happy because you never know who is just around the corner when you're not around when they are partaking in that outside interest.

Also, keeping yourself fit, looking good, acting proper, and being desireable by the opposite sex. If you both do this, your partner will notice, and will also see you as desireable. Just another way to kill off complacency. 

Remember one of the "red flags" of affiars? The parntner starts taking care of themselves. Dressing better. Looking better. WHY WERE YOU / HER NOT DOING THAT THE ENTIRE TIME???? Your partner gets complacent in how they treat you because you are getting complacent in how you are presenting yourself towards them! She thinks you're less attractive because you ARE ACTING AND LOOKING LESS ATTRACTIVE!!!

All of this "doing more house work, massages, gift buying, etc., etc." to try to get them to love you more is just the wrong tack to take. First of all, you should have been carrying your fair share in the first place. If you were and stopped, then start back up. If you always have been, then doing more will not make matters better. 

Flowers, massages, gifts? She gets those when she treats me well on a consistent basis. Not because she treats me badly and I'm trying to get her to treat me better!!!! If you are trying to buy a womans affection, THEY WILL SEE RIGHT THROUGH IT AND WILL RESPECT YOU LESS.

I give gifts and flowers on special occassions. Bdays, xmas, anniversary, etc. All the usual stuff. I NEVER do so as a way to make up for something I did wrong, or as a direct "reward" for something she did right. She gets these things out of the blue, and for no other reason than I love her, because she consistently treats me well. If I screw up, I own up to it like a man, and make ammends and the necessary changes. Ammends do not include gifts or flowers. It may include a very sincere hand written note or email, but I will never give the appearance of trying to "buy" her affection or forgiveness....ever.

It is funny to me how many times I see or hear about women getting gifts or flowers, and they or their friends say "what did he do wrong now", or "he must have done something wrong", or "wow, you must have really rocked his world last night". Not this guy. She gets them because I love her, and she treats me great every day. I love it when I hear her tell her friends that I got her flowers or a small gift "because he loves me" or "because he's just amazing" and for no other reason than that.

At the end of the day, treat yourself well first and foremost by not tolerating things you do not want to tolerate and which will build resentment, and then make yourself an attractive person to the opposite sex (and the treating yourself well is part of that). For the most part, everything else seems to fall into place when you do that.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Well, it is time for a 3 mile run folks


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

So, had a good run tonite, was 95 degrees out with high humidity and really kicked my ass, I needed it. 

Now... on to other things. Tonite I realized I've had it. I will not put up with the bullshxx anymore. Her continued contact with this man she went to see last year is unacceptable and she is going to have to make a choice: either break off all contact with him, ALL CONTACT, quit searching for him online, quit poking him on Facebook, quit "friending" his friends, or leave MY house, and leave my children here. 

I am done being a pushover about this, I don't NEED a woman in my life when she isn't really in my f'ing life. She's had enough time to find "closure" as she called it, over this guy. There is no valid excuse to keep having this unhealthy obsession over him, she can see that it has destroyed me, but no more, absolutely no more. If she wants to be on her own then so be it. She will not take my children out of this state, if she wants to have custody then she will need to stay here in Nebraska by her miserable self to have it. 

If she chooses to move to Wisconsin to be by herself then she can sign over custody to me and she can have them part time over the summer, or whatever the court chooses should she choose to move away. 

If she chooses to stay then things are going to be different. We are going to work together on the finances, we are going to have a transparent marriage instead of all this hiding by her and snooping by both of us. I will work harder than ever on my own issues, regardless of if she is with me or not, but I know that fixing my own problems makes me a better husband, IF she chooses to stay. 

And another thing, I will be blistering the counselor on Thursday about the entire "other man" situation. I don't know what counselor in their right mind would just ignore that when it is VERY apparent that it is causing problems in someone's marriage. I will have the counselor to myself, so we are going to discuss that situation and ALSO the financial situation, which I had more time to think about and work out in my head tonite. 

I paid off the 12,000 dollars in debt that she had, I paid off her pickup, I have NEVER made a big deal about it, I have NEVER chastised her or negated her contributions to the family, but I do NOT deserve to be marginalized or disrespected in such a way as she has done, implying that she would have been "just fine" with her finances except that she had to sign her checks over to me, that is a load of BS nonsense!

I am angry tonite, and it may not be the best state of mind to make decisions with but it is a damn site better than being a mopey clingy sad wuss of a man like I've been pretty much this entire last year. I will not use my anger against her, I will be very level headed when the time comes, but I am now feeling a lot more confident about myself and the future. By confronting her on this I will gain control over myself and my household, instead of continuing to let her run rampant over me. 

Again, I am not denying my own issues in all of this, but I'm sick and tired of being the only one who actually gives a damn enough to work on this relationship.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Think indignation rather than anger. You're getting there. See how much more respect anyone reading that post will have for you. Your wife will notice it too. But don't blast her. Just make the rules. Great job.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Po12345 said:


> Again, I am not denying my own issues in all of this, but I'm sick and tired of being the only one who actually gives a damn enough to work on this relationship.


She hasn't had anything to worry about for just that reason. Time to change that up. And I think feeling anger is fine ... take it for a spin. What you need to be careful of is displaying anger. Can be very effective when used in the correct proportions. 

It can either kick start a fire to bring things back to life and into focus, or ... it can get out of control and burn absolutely everything to the ground.

Thus the warning.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Whoa ... Trenton's account got hijacked!


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I will read more of this in depth later. I hate how this comes in waves, I feel strong for a little bit and suddenly I'm right back in the duldrums again  

I know this is a process, and I know I did the wrong things the entire last year. But damn there are times it just hurts so much.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

From Lawrence of Arabia. Lifted from IMDB. I hope the reference makes sense.



> _[Lawrence has just extinguished a match between his thumb and forefinger. William Potter surreptitiously attempts the same]
> William Potter: Ooh! It damn well 'urts!
> T.E. Lawrence: Certainly it hurts.
> Officer: What's the trick then?
> T.E. Lawrence: The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts. _


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## petrodupl (Jul 2, 2012)

So sad that good guys gets messed around by woman like this


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Po12345, I haven’t read all your thread but I think I have the general gist of it. You think you’ve screwed up big time and look for help from former Nice Guys.

It doesn’t matter whatever you do or say, whatever changes you make to yourself, whatever your history has been it is all a total waste of time for your marriage while your wife has the hots for another man.

It is all a total and absolute waste of time.

So focus on your strengths, you will have many of them but you do yourself down too much. Focus on your good and (for now) forget your bad. Feel really good about yourself and do things that feel good to you.

If your wife ever steps back into your marriage again that will be the time to take a critical at yourself again.

And don’t you ever accept a bad word from your wife while she is not in your marriage with you.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Never cater to a woman, just dont. It is a double edged sword you wont win.
Love them, take care of them if need be, respect them, but NEVER, EVER NEVER EVER

NEVER EVER

CATER TO A WOMAN.
if anything she will resent you for it in the end, and in the process you will just screw up yourself.

i think my father taught me that lesson when i was about ten.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

It would help so much to have my career path in order. When I started this job a little more than 4 years ago there were so many promises made about this becoming a 20 year career military job, and here we are now with a very shaky future. I've always had trouble accepting my own self worth but during the first 3 years of this job I really felt great about myself and I believed in what I was doing. Now it just adds to the anxiety, anxiety and depression that I've never had to deal with before, and as I sit here tonite working more on my resume I have such a difficult time trusting in my own self worth, and yet I know how important that is if I'm going to get anyone else to believe in me enough to hire me on for a good job. 

I'm sure adding to the stress and sadness tonite is the fact that this is my 7th wedding anniversary. I suppose I'm a moron but I am actually proud of that


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

It's ok to feel hurt.

But you have to temper that. You want to acknowledge and celebrate your wedding anniversary.

Your wife chose to duck it ... completely.

I have a very simple philosophy. People are self-serving. We are inherently programmed to pursue the things that give us pleasure and avoid the things that cause us pain.

And sometimes that wiring gets crossed ... as in your case. Mine, or many other men and women here that end up pining over how their partner used to be; instead of acknowledging how they are NOW.

If your wife wanted this even half as badly as you do ... she would be with you ... trying to figure it out. 

Stop cutting her slack. You don't need to make her your enemy, but you do need to acknowledge that she isn't your ally. She is HER ally. You must try to adopt that same perspective.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I went to a group meeting tonite that is designed to help me regain my self confidence. It is a once a week thing they have here. I felt a little better afterwards, that is something at least. I am going to go back also, they said generally you start seeing changes after about half a dozen meetings.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Deejo said:


> It's ok to feel hurt.
> 
> But you have to temper that. You want to acknowledge and celebrate your wedding anniversary.
> 
> ...


It seems so easy, and it is the same advice I'd give someone else... but it is so damn hard, you are right though, I'm enabling her to do exactly what she is doing.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

This impending sense of doom blows... trying hard to get out of myself, spending time with friends this last 2 weeks, talking to my parents more, also trying hard to get away from being "mr sad story" because that doesn't help anything. 

It's like I want to flick a switch and get everything okay heh.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Po I'm hoping you're still around because your story was one that I was following, you haven't been on in 2 weeks and haven't posted an update since July 4. 

Let's see if I can recap the timeline...
16JUNE she said she wants a divorce...
17JUNE I convinced him to read MMSL
18JUNE he was around chapter 8 and really had his eyes openned... At this point he mentioned she's going to her parents for 2 weeks leaving about 23JUNE.
01JULY he made a pretty good post abouttaking a stand.


That's about the last mention of the relationship with his wife, but while she was at her parents she was calling him... That didn't sound like she was set on the course for a divorce.

So what's been happenning dude?
So by now she should have returned


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## Clever (Aug 9, 2012)

Look at "The New Man Podcast" because there is a lot of stuff there that talks about this very thing.


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## lonleyinlasvegas (Jul 3, 2012)

any updates?


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I'll post the thread I've been updating, lonelyinlv:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/46499-how-do-i-let-go-enough-fix-my-marriage-3.html

I will tell you this much, reading the title of this thread makes me chuckle, now that I know it really isn't up to me to change, I'm not the one who created the problem so why should I have to change to fix it? :smthumbup: I'm a great guy who doesn't need to change.


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