# Needing advice on saving marriage.



## Lostmomma (Aug 7, 2014)

My husband and I have been together 7 years. We have 6 children. His, mine, and ours. We started our relationship with just 4 of us, then we had our child together. 2years ago, my husbands ex wife passed away, and his two oldest children came to live with us. 5 months later my husband was awarded custody of his youngest child. We have tried so hard to understand each child's issues. 

Because if these issues, we decided it was best for me to stay home and care for the kids. Now, his youngest has been diagnosed with ODD, ADHD, and bipolar. She is quickly becoming out of control. She is very defiant, disrespectful, disobedient, and dishonest. She is directing her resentment toward me. She gets standard visitation with her mother. Her mother is constantly calling social services and the police on us. The child has told us on multiple occasions that her mother and her mothers family talk bad about us all the time to her and is constantly talking about court issues in front of her. 

He wad awarded custody of her because her mother was unstable and couldn't make good decisions for the child. There is not structure in her home. We have rules and discipline and structure. But now that is all falling apart. The child and I used to have such a close relationship until she started pulling away from me a little over a year ago. The child has been in 2 separate behavioral centers. She is currently on medicine and in counseling. I have gotten to a point where I cannot allow her to hurt me and the other children anymore. I tried suggesting a strategy to her father as to where I simply back off and become her caregiver and provide her with safety and her necessities while her dad is at work. 

He is supposed to leave her chore list on the computer desk before he leaves for work and he takes care of her when he gets home. If she wants to do something, or needs help with anything ( other than emergency type issues) she is to ask him. 

It went well for a day or two, then he found out how overwhelming it was to handle her. Now, a week later he is expecting me handle it all again. I have absolutely no time for myself except when they are all in bed. And if I ever go anywhere it's for one of the children or to pay bills, get groceries, etc. I'm about to pull my hair out because I'm still helping the other children. I'm still making sure they do their chores and responsibilities. But my husband is not enforcing anything on his daughter. 

If I give my opinion to him in private, he'd make an excuse that he doesn't have time to do it. He is allowing her to do things that I don't allow the rest of the children to do. The child is eventually going to have control over him if he doesn't wake up and step up to the plate. Our marriage is suffering because I can't handle being disrepected and lied on and having the other children hurting as well. I've been building anger and hurt and suffering because he won't listen to how I feel. I've tried talking to him, I've tried writing him letters, I've tried dealing with it on my own. I can't hold the stress in anymore. 

Please help because I love my family!!! I love my children (yes I consider all 6 of them as mine). I live my husband.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Hi and welcome to the forum. I applaud you for taking care of and raising 6 kids, WOW.

Clearly, first issue that you need to address is you and your husband being on the same page. Meet with him and discuss. 

You have A LOT on your hands and it's unreasonable for your husband to handle this as well. He needs to get involved/commit more time and be a father.

How is this girls diet? Doctor's LOVE to hand out pills to patients........how did he diagnose her with ADHD etc? 

I know # of kids that take these pills and I just don't understand, kids seem completely normal. What I notice though is each and every one of my kids friends that takes them eat extremely poorly.....of course they are not going to be good in school and behave when all they drink is soda and ONLY eat chicken nuggets. THEY ARE NOT GETTING NUTRITION!!! 

Anyways, I'm not a doctor but I do know that meds and these diagnosis are WAY over the top and over-prescribed in this country.

You are simply dealing with left over garbage that her mother raised her on. It's going to take time for her to adjust and it's going to take commitment and hard work from both of you to get there. Keep up with discipline and yes there will be times when she acts up and hates you guys (that's what kids do, completely normal). Wait till she is a teen, ever heard of "if your teen kid doesn't hate you, you are not doing your job as a parent?"



Being on the same page though, that's a must. Without it....kids will run you guys in circles and drive you apart (in time).

I suggest you guys make some compromises and get on the same page ASAP.

Your husband also needs to recognize and accept that the work you are doing at home is the hardest job one can have, and assist you/back you up. I don't care if he works in a mine doing 10 hour days.......it would still be easier job than what you are doing.

I would also recommend that you start booking some time for yourself (once a week). You need to be able to step back at times and have time/break from the tremendous job that you have.

Good luck


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## Lostmomma (Aug 7, 2014)

Thank you for the advice and support. As far as the girls diet it is not the healthiest it can be, but it far better than sods and chicken nuggets. I do most of my cooking from scratch. Oven baked meats, garden grown vegetables, homemade breads (other than loaf bread) now of course occasionally I do hamburger helpers or some boxed food if the schedule is tight. Very seldom eat at fast food because of the cost unless it's an absolute necessity or a reward. 

I agree that hmm husband and I need to be on the same page. But how do I get him to understand? For instance, last night when the child came home from her mothers, she brought in a backpack of clothes, went to her room, slammed the door. My husband looked at me and said, "did you see that?" I said "yeah, same attitude when she comes home as always". He looked at me and said, "no the backpack of clothes". I said, " no I didn't see that." He said, "what could I do about it." I suggested he make get try them on and tell her whether or not they were approved for school. And to check yo make sure she didn't sneak her phone she has at her moms over here (she had told a few people at school she was going to sneak it home and take it to school. We won't allow her to have one because she's only 11 and has been caught sexting while at her moms.). He replied back I don't have tine for that right now. I still have this and that to do. Me trying not to show my frustration went outside to call one of my best friends. Next thing I know sheriff shows up stating he was doing a welfare check on the child because it was reported that someone was starting fights with the child at our house. She'd only been home for 20 minutes or so. 

What steps can I do to explain to my husband that it is a must that we work together. I feel like he's sabotaging everything I try to do. Not really purposely, but because he can't see the frustration I'm dealing with. He can't seem to grasp the situation that he needs to control. He never did make her go to bed or take get medicine. She went to bed a hour and a half past her bedtime. 

As far as diagnosing her with ADHD, ODD, and bipolar was through her teachers at school, her therapist, and the behavioral centers. She has very poor boundary skills including, following rules, waiting her turn, using manners, and knowing what is appropriate and want isn't appropriated when it comes to adult makes. She's always hugging and putting her hand on adult men outside the home. She's been in detention for the that at school. Despite what I have tried age still continues to do it. 

We can tell she already has control if her mom. She tells her mom things like, you will buy me this, or I have to have this today. The child knows his to manipulate the situation. She has told her mother and us several lies even if we have solid proof, she still lies. And then if we explain to her mom about the situation, her mom makes excuses for her and says we should listen to the child.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Lostmomma said:


> Thank you for the advice and support. As far as the girls diet it is not the healthiest it can be, but it far better than sods and chicken nuggets. I do most of my cooking from scratch. Oven baked meats, garden grown vegetables, homemade breads (other than loaf bread) now of course occasionally I do hamburger helpers or some boxed food if the schedule is tight. Very seldom eat at fast food because of the cost unless it's an absolute necessity or a reward.


That sounds fine



Lostmomma said:


> As far as diagnosing her with ADHD, ODD, and bipolar was through her teachers at school, her therapist, and the behavioral centers. She has very poor boundary skills including, following rules, waiting her turn, using manners, and knowing what is appropriate and want isn't appropriated when it comes to adult makes. She's always hugging and putting her hand on adult men outside the home. She's been in detention for the that at school. Despite what I have tried age still continues to do it. .


These all sounds like your normal 11 year old kid to me.......that has not had any rules or discipline in their life.

I don't believe in diagnosing people with stuff to justify their poor behavior.

She needs consequences to learn.



Lostmomma said:


> We can tell she already has control if her mom. She tells her mom things like, you will buy me this, or I have to have this today. The child knows his to manipulate the situation. She has told her mother and us several lies even if we have solid proof, she still lies. And then if we explain to her mom about the situation, her mom makes excuses for her and says we should listen to the child.


All kids lie at that age.

Problem is, no body is DISABLING her from manipulating and the behavior you described. 

It's completely normal too when a child is with their mother, as so often mothers are loving and refuse to apply "tough love" to their children.

Personally, I believe in tough love. 

Sounds like this girl needs it from not only you 2, but her mother as well. 

One thing I forgot to add, it's not just you 2 that need to be on the same page, her mother needs to be on the same page as you guys as well. 

You can be perfect on that end, and it won't matter as long as she goes back home and her mother neglects her behavior.

And correct, no 11 year old should have a phone or access to internet. Any parent that does this is asking for trouble and will end up with trouble. 

My 16 year old daughter doesn't have a phone......and she doesn't even want it. When she does, she can work for it and pay for it.


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## Lostmomma (Aug 7, 2014)

There is no possible way her mom will be on the same page unless she is court ordered and has someone to enforce her.


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

You say you love your husband, and I get that. However, if he loves you, he will back you up. He isn't doing that. So.......


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Have you sought counseling for her? She has been diagnosed but by whom?

Also, you mention the mother's family all speaks badly about you and your husband and family.

I wonder if a lot of the reason she's defiant is because she doesn't know who to believe! She experiences love at your home but it's hard because she has to obey. She might get approval and compliance from her mother but it's not love, just rewarding on a certain level. 

The badmouthing needs to stop. Have you considered a multi-pronged approach including family and individual counseling (with your husband participating - he really does need to be on board or give up custody - it's hurting everyone else) plus getting a guardian ad litem for her? You're in the US?

Assuming money is tight with 6 kids and one income, consider reaching out to United Family Services. They do all sorts of counseling and are accustomed to working with kids and families that are in contentious situations. 

A guardian ad litem is a good idea because they assign a custody advocate to review everything and make a recommendation to the court based on unbiased information. They could very well assign her to you full time until she improves. The only known way to handle parental alienation is to immerse the child in the home they are being alienated from by the other parent. It gives the child time to bond with the family without the negative influence of the parent who is badmouthing.

This also eliminates the need for the mother to comply. On the flip side, the GAL/custody advocate may very well talk to the mother and tell her what she needs to do to keep seeing her daughter. That may be enough to scare her a bit and have her back off.

Some of what you describe is being a normal pre-teen looking for her own path and struggling with her identity and authority, but it does seem to go way beyond that.

And DSS sees these kinds of calls all of the time. I've had my share of them and they are all ruled unsubstantiated - one guy even said it was an obvious attempt to gain a leg up in custody. Turns out it's also a parental alienation tactic to make the child feel cherished by the one parent and afraid of the other. So the child acts out with this tough facade as a protective means.

Both of these things are very low cost. Search for GAL's in your area - the name of the organizations varies but the services and objectives are the same: to investigate the current custody situation and ensure that the child has the best arrangement possible.


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## Lostmomma (Aug 7, 2014)

dormant said:


> You say you love your husband, and I get that. However, if he loves you, he will back you up. He isn't doing that. So.......


Don't think I'm making excuses for him, but I know he loves me. It's just that he doesn't understand the depth of the issues. He is either not understanding me or he is having trouble staying focused on the strategy. He is also used to me handling the kids for the last 2 years. 

Part of it I do blame myself for not taking time for me 2 years ago. I went from being a working mother to a stay at home mom. I never took the time for myself to adjust to all the changes. Going from having 5 in the home, to 7 in the home, becoming a stay at home mom 2 months after that, building on 14x70 foot to our home, and 3 months after than becoming a family of 8 is a huge amount of change. 

I took on a lot of this responsibility on my own to help my husband. And now I'm the one who can't hold it together anymore. We Just started this stategy a little over a week ago, so we are both going to make mistakes and have trial and error periods. 

I know I've done things wrong, answered questions before I gave him a chance to answer because im used to doing it.


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## Lostmomma (Aug 7, 2014)

@enjoliwoman

Psychiatrist is one who diagnosed her. She has been counseling for the two years. And has been in two separate behavioral centers. 

Yes we have thought the same thing about her wanting to be with us, but since her mom doesn't she tries to please her mom as we'll even if she is with us. 

We had a guardian ad litem for the child after the custody was transferred. However, despite the numerous times we have been back to court because she files a hand written notice stating we are denying her right, the judge explaining the visitation rules to her numerous times, the judge fussing on us for not helping the child's mother with the visitation schedule and rules, the judges hasn't done anything. He has told her numerous times that if it continues there could be contempt charges filed and visitation could be stopped. But yet we get papers all the time over and over again. 

Her momma turns everything around. If we say the child is in bed, she'll say she's sick and call the cops saying won't take her to the doc. We have tried so many times to get dss and the judge to change the visitation or at least file harassment charges, but to no luck. We've even tried to request the court to have her complete an evaluation with a psychiatrist. No luck. 

We trying reasoning with her, we've tried explaining to her in more detail. We even did an agreed order for the school breaks because she would always fuss saying she didn't get visitation. And she still fusses saying she is getting what she's supposed to get. 

We need her off our back. It's hurting the child most of all and hurting us too.


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## CarlaRose (Jul 6, 2014)

Hey there, Lostmomma. As a stepmother, I subscribe to step parenting sites, and I've learned a lot.

The biggest, and most disappointing, thing I've learned is men and women are soooo very different types of parents. There's a lot I could say to explain the statement I'm about to make but to make a long story short - your husband is almost entirely incapable of parenting his daughter. (Sorry if that offends anyone, but it's true, so please don't anyone dispute the assertion just because you're offended by it. It won't help this woman with her problem just because you think yourself to be "Dad Of The Year.") 

You have experienced that for a brief time with dismal results. You are hopeful, expectant, and blaming yourself, but he isn't going to get much better at it. Understand though, he will never, ever parent like you do. He will not ever have the same standards you have. Just like he paid zero attention to her attitude and slamming the door, he will never notice - or rather will turn a blind eye to - the behaviors you feel should be addressed, corrected, and disciplined.

There are lots of reasons he won't get any better, and one of them is, as I stated, men and women are very different at parenting.

However, the difference is magnified in step families because of the nature of the situation. If there ever was any hope for him becoming a better parent, or if he might have been a better parent in an intact family (where mom and dad live together raising their own offspring), then it becomes an impossibility in step family situations. 

Some of the reasons are terms like "guilty daddy syndrome" and "disney daddy syndrome" each borne of the guilt dads feel that is associated with not living in the home and raising the kids with their mother. It's also due to the competition between the separated/divorced parents vying for the child's love and trying to one-up each other. Dads who are re-partnered almost always become possessed of one or both of those syndromes. There are many re-partnered dads who will confess to their new partner/wife that they don't WANT to discipline their kids because they don't want the kids to be angry with them or unhappy when in their home. This is out of the fear that kids might eventually stop coming for their visits. As a result, his children run household, disrespect the stepmom, and terrorize the other family members. Dad refuses to address the behaviors, refuses to put a stop to it, and refuses to support his wife.

Moreover, it appears many men are acutely aware of their child-rearing inadequacy because so very few ever sue for full custody before they have the replacement mother secured in his life. Once he marries or is living with a woman, he then becomes brazen and decides his children would be better off and in a better environment if living with him (and the replacement mommy), so he goes for full custody. Once the child is living in his home, he doesn't hesitate to dump the major and day-to-day responsibilities of raising his children on her. And there you have it - instant duplicate family, picture perfect in his world. Just like your husband admitted (although few ever actually admit to it), they don't want to take the time to do what is necessary and deal with their children.

Believe me, you are not alone. You are not the only stepmom at her wits' end, feeling like a failure, totally disrespect on a daily basis, and lost for solutions because she feels abandoned and unsupported by her husband concerning HIS children. 

You are not the only woman who got dumped on. You are, in fact and indeed, in the company of tens of millions from ALL OVER THE WORLD. And just like you, they also are complaining of the EXACT SAME things.

You need some hope, some help, AND you do have some options. HOWEVER, you do have to accept and understand a few things first. One is that you are not superwoman and you don't have to be. Another is that you have taken on waaaayyyy too much responsibility, so you're going to have to relieve yourself of that. 

Another is that you have ZERO responsibility TO or FOR your husband's children, and he has none to or for yours. It would have been great if the two of you could work together and you had his support, but you don't, so accept that and realize you simply have to separate yourself from it. Your husband's children already have a mother, and she is not you. In the case of his 11 year old daughter, her mother, unfortunately, adds to making your life a living hell. Therefore, leave her child to her to raise.

Yes, that means you really do have some options. All you need is the confidence to implement them.

Option 1) Disengage. You have begun to try this on a limited scale, but you need to full on disengage and let her father take over.

Option 2) You still need to be able to run your household, and you cannot allow that she disrespects you and terrorizes everyone in the home. So, demand that your husband attend parenting classes. He needs to get a clue because it's not fair to the other children you are trying to properly raise that she's allowed to do whatever she wants and not do anything she doesn't want. It's not right that he simply has no interest. It's not right that he doesn't want to be bothered and makes the sadass excuses that he doesn't "have time." It's NOT RIGHT that he dumped it all on you.

Option 3) Send that little hellion back to live with her mother. You are not responsible for her living conditions. You are not responsible for how her mother raises her. You are not responsible for how she turns out. You are not responsible for the psychological problems she has from her parents' divorce, and you cannot allow her to destroy you and your family because her mommy and daddy are no longer together. I'm sure he got full custody at least partly so he wouldn't have to pay child support anymore, but oh well.

This is the best option for you because of the problems she and her mother always cause. Believe it or not, one of their lies can easily result in you losing ALL of the children, including your own. They can be taken away from you and your husband and the family investigated, and it will cost you tens of thousands of dollars to fight the court battles to get them back. This is the danger you face by keeping these people in your life. 

Once you send her back, don't let her back into your home. Tell your husband he will have to visit with her elsewhere. Perhaps he can take her to a relatives house or just out to a park or something. Not your problem though.

Option 4) Leave. Whatever option you select, your husband, in his usual unsupportive glory, is not going to agree. You already know he won't take over, but he isn't going to send his precious little one back to her mom either. He is not going to support you no matter what......until he sees that he has something to lose.

Pack yourself and YOUR children, and go live with family or friend temporarily. You have to make some demands and requirements of your husband, but he won't take you seriously until he fully understands you are serious. You have to have the nerve and be willing to lose your marriage in order to possibly save it. He only takes advantage of you and takes you for granted because you allow him. You even allowed him to place you in the position of being totally dependent on him. You never should have quit your job. That gave him way too much power. But, whats done is done, so don't be afraid to take your power back now. 

He doesn't want to lose you. He doesn't want the marriage to end. And, MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE, he darned sure doesn't want to be left to raise his kids. That's what he secured you for. No, that does not mean he doesn't love you. I wouldn't have any way of knowing that, so it's not what I'm saying. I'm simply saying that, as I described before, he very likely would not have full custody of his kids had he not secured a woman to dump them on. Leaving is to get his attention since obviously nothing you say accomplishes that. It's just a way to get him on your side and more willing to be supportive.

No one here can make your husband do right by you, so if you're unable to convince him, then you have to do right by yourself. You're worn out. You're at a loss as to what to do. And, you are, regretfully, blaming yourself. You got duped into this and just didn't know it. As you can see by him taking no responsibility whatsoever in raising his kids, it was his plan all the long. I'm not entirely sure, but I kind of think that is an innocent thing and not egregiously diabolical. It's just the way most of these re-partnered fathers are. He provides for the family, but he's woefully useless at anything else.

There are lots of resources to help, as someone mentioned marriage counseling. You will need a counselor who specializes in step family dynamics and has comprehensive steps and principles for you both to follow on a daily basis. 

Absolutely do not go to a counselor who is not very, very familiar with step family dynamics and not one who only has the two of you sitting there complaining about each other. You don't need someone who will berate, chastise, and judge either of you. You need a result-driven program to follow.

Here are a few resources to help you out:

Patterns Of Development In Stepfamilies

Disengaging

Disengaging In A Nutshell

Help! My Wife Is Disengaged
This is an article for your husband to read if you decide to disengage.

What Every Stepmom Needs Her Husband To Know
Another for your husband to read.

Stepmonster
This is a GREAT book to read. You and your husband both should read it. It will help you both get on the same page. Or rather, it SHOULD help you both get on the same page. That will depend on his level of denial and his level of unwillingness to be supportive. If he's lazy and entirely unwilling, then nothing will help.


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## Lostmomma (Aug 7, 2014)

@ Carlarose

Honestly the reason he filed for custody was because of me. I encouraged him to do so. The child was almost deathly ill from lack of nutrition, lack of stability and transferred from one school to another school to another school because her mom would jump from one man to the next etc. And eventually was kept away from him for several months and was moved almost 3 hours away with no contact. He was awarded with joint custody with him being the residential parent. 

The whole time he doubted himself being able to get custody. I kept encouraging him. He was faithful to paying his child support. He didn't understand all the legal modifications and such if he did change jobs. I encouraged him to that as well. He was paying 85 a week for his oldest two and 48 for his 11 year old when I met him. 133 dollars out of a 290 dollar check. He gets 60 a month from her now. I only receive 50 a week for my 2 girls. 

Understand that it's not that he doesn't punish her, he's not consistent. He's not strict enough. He never talks about her momma in front of her. He doesn't tell her to say things to her momma, he doesn't fuss with her momma. He does tend to zone out to her behaviors, but not always. He wants to use a switch on her, but because of the situation it's not feesible. I am 99 % positive that he doesn't have the guilty dad syndrome. He's just not as strict as I'd like for him to be or consistent as he should be. We have structure in our home, and she is bucking up against it hard. She doesn't like structure because there is none at her moms. 

You are truly right about the different parenting skills. He has very few. There are things he punishes for that I wouldn't, vice versa. He doesn't buy her love. We both have always taught the children that needs come first. He is a very hard working man. He works in a saw mill all year long, and during the summer he has a side job of mowing lawns. Does he have to do both? No, but I respect the fact that he is supporting the family. 

I also do agree that he basically needs to get his priorities straight and step up to the plate while he is home. When I married him I fully and truly even now believe it was a package deal. I married him, I accept his children as my own. But I should never have took all the responsibility on myself. I was a CSR and the contract I was working was ending, so I drew unemployment for a while and never got called back. So I chose to stay home. 

As far as his other two children, they lost their momma to cancer almost 3 years ago. That was something that wasn't foreseen. 

I understand the risk of losing all the children if things don't get balanced soon. We had a counseling session tonight with our church's Pastor. I explained some of his to him and he agreed that my husband needed to take full responsibility of her from the time he gets off work til he goes to work the next day. If he goes to mow, he takes her with him and puts her to work. Is that fair to his other children, no probably not, but they'd rather help me because they don't Ike being outside. 

We have reserved Sundays to go to church and have a family day. We have agreed that I get at least a half hour each evening to go find my sanity. Some may say that I'm not thinking clearly or that I've done lost my marbles, but I am going to fight for my marriage. I am not quitting. We will continue counseling for us and with the child for now. Eventually we will include all the children in these sessions. It is going to take my husband and I to work together on this before the whole family can heal. 

As far as the child's momma, I tried to help her as well on my own accord. I have always been a peacemaker. But it's slipping from me. I understand I'm not supermom. I understand I need to let go of some responsibility. I do know my plate is overflowing. I have become OCD. 

I didn't inform anyone of this earlier because I didn't think it was necessary at the time. Our son had a stroke prior to birth, so he requires extra attention to a degree. The only way you can tell he had a stroke is he has a speech delay and a slight right side weakness. That is another reason I chose not to go back to work. He now also has lost most vision in his left eye. He is 5 now. 

Also, my mother in law will be coming to stay with us soon. She was flown to hospital for emergency surgery about a month ago. She will need some care. I am scheduled to have a hysterectomy sept 2nd. 

So I'm pushing the issues at this point because I WONT be able to do what I do now. I'm not trapped in this relationship. He didn't put me here. God did. 

Not to offend anyone but personally my opinion is there is no child hat deserves to be called a hellion. Yes she creates issues, she has behavior problems that I'm struggling with dealing with. But she still deserves love and a family. I will back off from her, and show her having me in her life is a bonus, but I will not reject her, because I might be her last hope and she is having trouble accepting it. I will continue to show her love. 

Again I am not trying to protect anyone. These are my true feelings. Yes I'm exhausted, run down, and on the verge of pulling my hair out. 

And we found out at counseling the child is happy here, however she is struggling with the issues of what her maternal family does and says over there versus the structure here. The child has admitted that her mother is the cause of her problem. 

Thank you for the links and information.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

One thing I learned from reading a lot about parental alienation (not that it's full blown right now) is that it's OK to mention things about the other parent in a factual context. It is NOT OK to bash - huge difference. I always took the high road and didn't comment about her father while he was always making comments and/or implying I wasn't a good, safe mother. That backfired. That just reinforced he was 'perfect' while I was flawed. The reality is we are all flawed and he's not as good and I'm not as bad as he was portraying.

Finally she got old enough to really start pushing for answers even though our order states we can't discuss it with her. He has violated numerous parts on many occasions and I've just tried to stick to the order. Finally I DID share that her Dad is "sick", that the psychologist determined he had NPD. She asked what that meant and I said "basically it means he always thinks he's right and he's always going to think I'm wrong or anyone else who doesn't agree with him". She absorbed this information quietly and thoughtfully and we moved on. I didn't have to bash. I only gave her facts and kept it simple.

Is there any way you could have a conversation with her about her mother? Does she remember not having food? When she has a family, what is her opinion of not providing proper nutrition? Does she think kids should be allowed to do whatever they want? Probably not - she has younger siblings so does she think they should be able to do whatever? Ask her about what she would expect of her children as they grow up and what would she do under these circumstances. Not that you have to do it - but she might surprise you and herself by saying she would ground her own daughter should she talk back or lie.

Pperhaps she can begin to see that there are two sides to every story. Mom might love her but maybe doesn't know the best way to take care of her. And some rules are needed.

Did she help make the rules? Input is important, especially as kids get older. Maybe let some things go as a compromise. If she agrees the expectations are fair because they have been created as a family team, maybe she'll be more likely to follow through and have a more positive outlook when she comes back home after a visit.

I know your marriage is suffering and you have a lot on your plate with surgery, son and MIL. But I also hate to see anyone give up on this girl. She needs a rock. I think your husband should be that rock. I agree he needs to be on board and a serious discussion about this is needed. Could you have that discussion with him, establish what needs to happen. Then ask someone to watch the kids and have the above mentioned sit-down with girl?

Keep plugging away with the courts and everyone else. I find it ridiculous that the courts have babied the mother to this extent, requiring someone else to explain things to her and help her keep up with things (unless she's learning disabled). I think even tho she may act out, she's struggling with her positive feelings for you as well as her need to please her mother by NOT having those feelings. She probably feels like a traitor inside. 

And I bet he DOES feel guilty to an extent - even if it's just that he can't seem to get her out of that situation.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You're going to have to have a come to Jesus meeting with your husband and inform him that if he won't be consistent in what needs to be done, then you are taking over the childraising. You don't have time or energy to waste trying to get consistency. And consistency is what those kids need most. For now, just tell him if he won't do what needs to be done, get out of the way. As bad as his daughter is, she will respond to calm, logical, and nonyielding decision (at least somewhat, if she truly is bipolar). Show her that nothing's going to change, no matter what she tries, and she'll eventually give up trying to stir things up. Or at least learn to live within it without causing so much destruction.

Read everything you can get your hands on about Authoritative Parenting (not "Authoritarian", which is bad). Learn it, practice it, teach it to your husband, so you're both on the same page. 

The basis of it is you set rules, you explain the rules, you explain the consequences the kids will get if they break the rules, and it's on THEM, not you, if they do. Their choice. You take the emotion out of it, you let them make the decision (follow rules or get punished), and it's up to them if they want to keep hitting their head against the wall, as you've explained what it takes to NOT have the consequences. 

For the one girl, set up regular, recurring appointments with a psychologist (not just a counselor and definitely not a church counselor). If she's really that messed up, she'll need more help than you can provide on your own. And again, consistency of sessions.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

dormant said:


> You say you love your husband, and I get that. However, if he loves you, he will back you up. He isn't doing that. So.......


Some people just don't have the strength for these situations. If he can't do it, then he needs to at least tell her in no uncertain terms that she cannot rely on him. Then at least she knows where she stands, even if it is alone. I know - I've been there and you so desperately want your spouse to fight the good fight with you, but maybe they just can't. 

It sucks, but she's going to have to focus on where it matters. Or she will have to put it back on him and if he can't do it, then there's a new reality to deal with.

In my early years, I had an adopted sister that wrecked our home life. My father described her as a psychopath. We ended up sending her to a home for troubled teens. Sad to say, but it was the best thing for the rest of the kids and we still suffered for years due to all the upheaval it caused.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My best friend's parents adopted a boy who turned out to be a psychopath; in and out of mental hospitals all his life; ruined my friend's childhood.


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## Malpheous (May 3, 2013)

In all the exhausting things happening in the home throughout the day and night, I think the first thing to sort out is getting the husband on board to at least get the the child's mother in order.

The husband has to be engaged.

A plan needs devised in order to squash this crap of the mother sending the Sheriff around at random. Perhaps after a couple visits that are clear bull, have a conversation with the deputy about what constitutes harassment on the mother's part and what your options are at that particular moment. I experienced some of this with my ex sending them by anytime she couldn't reach us via phone. Or if she had heard we left the house without her permission. You know how it is. After the local PD came by a couple times, she was told by the dispatcher they weren't interested without more compelling info. She sent the Sheriff's deputy over. I explained o him that PD must have gotten tired of her calls. We took a trip to the PD to confirm that. The Sheriff explained to her that she was about to get pulled in for harassment and a few other things on the next unsubstantiated call. Helped a LOT. Make no mistake. She poked at me in other ways. It's a game that's not quickly won. But if you stick with it and start pushing back in every way possible, it'll end eventually.


For me it took:

- The deputy returning to her and offering her charges of her own

- A handful of R3 letters

- A contempt charge requesting relief and modifications to better handle future issues. 

- determination


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## Lostmomma (Aug 7, 2014)

I have had a serious talk with my husband and he has come to terms with getting involved and being more engaged. The mother is the problem. My husband got on the child for her attitude and behavior (she was yelling at her little 5 yr old brother and her 68 year old grandma, screaming she hates it here and her mom hates her being here, and her mom hates everyone in this house). 

So, later her mom calls of course. No telling what the child told her mom, but it resulted in 2 sheriffs showing up at our house last night. They said they received a call saying that the child was fearful of her life and that her dad was hitting her. The sheriffs stated we do need to talk to someone about filing harassment charges against her and doing the out of control petition on the child. 

The child has absolutely no understanding of boundaries because of her mother. She sees a phychiatrist, a therapist, and we have counseling thru our Pastor at church. We do honestly believe that we are dealing with the Parental alienation syndrome. 

So our day today is going yo be spent seeing how many circles we are going to be sent in before we get any answers. 

Thank you malpheous for showing determination. I believe it helped my husband know he could do it to.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Please do what the professionals - the cops - tell you to do. THEY have seen more cases like yours than everyone combined, and they KNOW what will happen if you don't follow their advice.


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## Malpheous (May 3, 2013)

You may consider also checking to see if you are in what's commonly called a "one-party" state also. That means that only one party to a conversation needs to be aware of recording. If you are, I recommend your husband and yourself get a couple of decent, discreet, digital voice recorders. the kind you can carry easily in a pocket. If an event happens in the home where voices are raised, etc, then you'd start recording. They can prove helpful in a he-said/she-said scenario with law enforcement or the therapists office. Especially if either of you has contact with the mother.

Another helpful tool with the mother may be to move as much of any communication as possible to email and/or postal service mail. Keep discussions factual, non-accusatory, child focused and brief. Never respond emotionally and read any response at least twice, with 10 minutes or so between, before you click send. Only reply if on is truly required. Ask yourself if the mother's message contained a valid and reasonable question.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

The only real solution for parental alienation is to extremely limit the exposure of the child to the alienating parent. It gets harder the older they get.

A psychologist found this to be the case with my kid as her father had F/S/S overnights and then Thursday on opposite weeks, so 8 overnights a month. Plus visiting her at lunch at school, calling every night and talking to her for a long time, visiting her at after-school care, etc. So a LOT of exposure even tho she didn't live with him. The GAL and psychologist found him to be narcissistic and alienating her. They limited him to 4 overnights a month, 3 15-minute phone calls per week and he could only visit school once a week although that stopped in highschool as they don't allow parents to come for lunch. He got her a cell phone (at 10 which he told her to hide from me but I found it unpacking her overnight bag) because he thought I recorded all of their conversations (I didn't but did a few - hit the jackpot so badmouthing must have been happening more than I recorded) but then after the phone contact was limited I sent it back to him and got her one myself so I had visibility to the bill so I could make sure he wasn't calling her more than the order allowed.

I don't know if she was telling him lies to gain his approval, or if she liked the attention she got from him - maybe he dropped everything to listen to her and exclaim and commiserate how awful I must be - no way to know. But CPS and the cops kind of rolled their eyes once they actually came inside, met me and checked with kiddo, etc. Fortunately once an order was signed, he had nothing to gain and it stopped.

It took 3 years to get from a screaming "I hate you and don't want to have to see you" to voluntary hugs and I love yous. There are a lot of good tips in Divorce Poison by Dr. Richard Warshack. 

*Make the child see you as someone worthy of respect. *

I did this by taking her to work and having my co-workers intentionally tell her positive things about me. (I explained to them what was happening.) They told her things like "your mom is so great to work with" and "your mom is so smart and helpful" "we love having your mom work here" and I showed her my awards I'd received. I had my friends do the same thing. "Your mom is such a good person to help me with this" "Your mom is so nice to help me" etc.

*Remind the child that they HAVE experienced good times with you.*

I printed out all of the digital photos 4 per page and put them in 3-ring binders. I left them out on the coffee table 'to show a friend my project' and when she came over I showed the friend what I'd been working on. She pointed to photos of me and commented kiddo "YOU went camping - how COOL!" "Oh I love how happy you and your mom look at the beach!" and so forth. I left them out for a long time and would occasionally pick one up and say "Do you remember this day/trip/Christmas/Easter, etc.?" At first she barely glanced but she would sidle over and look and finally would sit beside me flipping pages.

*Watch movies that depict brainwashing. Discuss as a family.*

Watching "Hook" and talk about how the boy was brainwashed by the Lost Boys to hate his home and want to stay until his Dad came and he realized he loved and missed him. Mrs. Doubtfire shows a mother alienating the kids by turning her nose up at Dad's apartment, job skills, etc. Even that Lindsay Lohan movie where the high school girl tries to blend with the "plastics" and starts to adopt their behavior... all opportunities to simply have a FAMILY discussion "wow, kids, do you think if your friends talked about how much they hated something, do you think you'd start to hate it too?" or just comments "Wow - hard to believe the mother would make such mean comments about the Dad (in Mrs. Doubtfire) - I mean, he is obviously trying and he's not a bad guy - why would she do that?" Casually open up conversations because the kids will help lead this unknowingly. Plus it's nice for kids to learn to stick to their own convictions.  

*Don't badmouth but don't be afraid to speak the truth in a factual way.*

You wouldn't want to call the mother a biotch, but you can certainly say "I don't know WHY she thinks we would hit you, or why she thinks we are bad people. I wonder if she needs help." or if you know she has been diagnosed with something, share it. If you know she has been rude for no reason, it's OK to point that out. "I do not know why she would think it's OK to lie. We don't lie in our house." Or yell, or hit, etc.

*Be consistent, do not try to win her love or play favorites.*

I struggled with this at first but then I got the book. This just means keep treating her like the other kids. Keep expecting chores, administering punishment where needed, etc. By easing up on her, it reinforces that maybe you WERE doing something wrong. You weren't. Treat her the same way regardless. If you weren't' doing anything wrong there's no need to change how you interact with her. No extra favors, no giving her any slack or taking it easy on her. To change would be to admit there was something wrong with your parenting and you don't want her to think her Mom might be right for criticizing something.

*Keep loving.*
Pretty simple. Know that she is being manipulated by her Mother. Her mother's love or attention might be at stake if D were to give in. D has to keep acting like she hates you because that's what Mom wants her to do. If D were to be loving to you, she would be betraying Mom and Mom might become hateful, abusive (whether by ignoring, verbally or physically), etc. D may very well realize subconsciously that her mother's love is conditional and if she doesn't keep acting/behaving like she hates you and prefers Mom, Mom might withdraw love and affection. It's a kids' natural instinct to want parental love. She knows Dad's love is unconditional so she doesn't have to worry that he'll hate her if she acts this way. In true PAS, it's almost a compliment that she feels safe enough to act out knowing that you may hate the behavior but it doesn't stop you from loving her.

Obviously this is only if PAS exists. Could be she's just a brat.  But based on the way the mother acts, I see PAS because I've been there and it was diagnosed.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Malpheous said:


> You may consider also checking to see if you are in what's commonly called a "one-party" state also. That means that only one party to a conversation needs to be aware of recording. If you are, I recommend your husband and yourself get a couple of decent, discreet, digital voice recorders. the kind you can carry easily in a pocket. If an event happens in the home where voices are raised, etc, then you'd start recording. They can prove helpful in a he-said/she-said scenario with law enforcement or the therapists office. Especially if either of you has contact with the mother.
> 
> Another helpful tool with the mother may be to move as much of any communication as possible to email and/or postal service mail. Keep discussions factual, non-accusatory, child focused and brief. Never respond emotionally and read any response at least twice, with 10 minutes or so between, before you click send. Only reply if on is truly required. Ask yourself if the mother's message contained a valid and reasonable question.


Good point. I know my state is a one-party state. Yet I was able to record my daughters calls to her Dad because I was worried about her sudden behavior change after being taken away by her Dad for a month and felt that she had been verbally/emotionally abused. Therefore I was able to give consent on her behalf, since she was a minor (well, still is) and I am her parent, to record her phone calls. My attorney had checked the laws as well as case precedence and found some rulings on the issue that supported my legally recording. They were played for the GAL and custody advocate.

Alienating a child is emotional abuse.


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