# Been awhile



## slater (Feb 3, 2012)

I actually had to search an old post to recall the YEAR of my dday. It was 1/30/12. Almost 3 years ago. Funny thing is the A lasted longer than its been since dday. Hard for me to wrap my head around that! 

We are currently "not divorcing". She fizzled on MC about six months ago. It was getting stale but she has so much further to go. I don't think she has brought up the affair in a year outside MC. Our sex life is a 3/10. 

So why am I still here? My relationship with my kids has never been better. I put them and me ahead of everything. The marriage is not great but I don't feel it is a detriment to the kids. So I press on. Each day remembering what matters to me and my purpose. I saw my IC a couple weeks ago and he said he expects me to hit the exit the minute my youngest leaves the house. Probably true. 

So there it is. A peek at life 3 years out. I have tried to find love and grace for my wife but it will never be the same. Maybe if she made me feel safe again but apparently that is asking too much. Don't get me wrong- I don't think she'll cheat ( of course who knows!) but I don't feel like she loves me much anymore. 

The great apathy has set in with regards to her. My focus is me my career and the kids.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

How long will you be able to live like this? What is your wife not doing that you want her to do? JMHO, but I think now that both you and your wife are ripe for affairs again. It sounds like a lot of time was spent talking about the affair, but not a lot of time actually spent addressing it head on. IMHO, talking about something doesn't always mean that it is being dealt with.


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## imjustwatching (Jul 8, 2014)

you're teaching your kids that it's OK to live like this and accepte it
what you're doing is wrong, i feel sorry for your children


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## slater (Feb 3, 2012)

imjustwatching said:


> you're teaching your kids that it's OK to live like this and accepte it
> what you're doing is wrong, i feel sorry for your children


I appreciate you judging my children's mental health based upon the 2 sentences I wrote about how my marriage may be perceived by them. We all have the solution that is right for us. My solution may not be yours. 

Concerning the post about us being ripe for further affairs- maybe so. That is a concern. To be clear this isn't my optimal solution either. I want to deal with this head on and face it but I can't make her do anything. I can leave certainly but for now I have chosen time with my young children.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

So, you're staying for the kids sake.

Admirable, but that'll only last until they are old enough to move on. Then you get to ponder what you might have done with those lost years while you plan for D.

Then, after the D, you meet someone that is perfect for you. You can't get enough of each other. You start to wonder how much better things would have been for you had you started dating her 3, 5, or 8 years earlier.

Also, no one knows if she will cheat on you again. But it's certainly more likely to happen with someone that has already cheated. Add to the mix that she know's that you're just staying for the kids and she starts to become resentful. Then over time, the resentfulness becomes vengefulness. Then...


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Life is too short to just piss it away like that.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Hey Slater. Welcome back bro.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

imjustwatching said:


> you're teaching your kids that it's OK to live like this and accepte it
> what you're doing is wrong, i feel sorry for your children


I cannot understand why would you feel sorry for them learning the lesson of sacrificing for the greater good. Something more important than their own happiness (their kids maybe). I am confused by this.



slater said:


> *I appreciate you judging my children's mental health based upon the 2 sentences I wrote about how my marriage may be perceived by them. We all have the solution that is right for us. My solution may not be yours. *
> 
> Concerning the post about us being ripe for further affairs- maybe so. That is a concern. To be clear this isn't my optimal solution either. I want to deal with this head on and face it but I can't make her do anything. I can leave certainly but for now I have chosen time with my young children.


I sir, applaud your dedication to your kids and I feel certain that someday, maybe even now, they do/will as well.



GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> So, you're staying for the kids sake.
> 
> Admirable, but that'll only last until they are old enough to move on. *Then you get to ponder what you might have done with those lost years while you plan for D.*
> 
> ...


Again, I fail to see how sacrificing for your children is "lost years"?? I would see no better way to invest your time.
There will always be missed opportunities when you have kids but seeing the children grow into responsible adults with families of their own is a reward in and of itself. What of the missed ski weekends and trips to the Caribbean that were no longer affordable after the kids came along. It's about what's more important I guess. Sorry, I just don't understand this type of thinking.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

slater said:


> I appreciate you judging my children's mental health based upon the 2 sentences I wrote about how my marriage may be perceived by them. We all have the solution that is right for us. My solution may not be yours.


Sorry, but you are too defensive, there was no statement made about the mental state of your children. I agree though that what you are doing is detrimental to the children, as having seen it in my kids directly, as we were trying to R and a like couple was going through the D. My kids would comment that their friends were so much happier since their parents were going through D than when they were living together and trying to R and envied them for it. We are now in D and the kids are happier that they are not exposed daily to the arguments and tensions within the house as we are now separated (and yes they have told me this directly). 

You are basing your opinions it seems of your kids happiness upon what you want to see, and keep in mind that kids won't always divulge all they are feeling for fear of alienating one or both of the parents. I know that I am looking back on the years I wasted while trying to remain together for the kids. Yes my relationship was much better with them while trying to remain together, but it is just as good since we separated (and maybe better as they now get to see the effects of the WS directly and the damage it does as I am not there to protect them from it).

You are in counseling, but what about your kids? They need to see a counselor too so that you can get an unbiased assessment of their take on the situation (as we all want the best of our children and do what it takes to see it, even though our opinion is biased).


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

imjustwatching said:


> you're teaching your kids that it's OK to live like this and accepte it
> what you're doing is wrong, i feel sorry for your children


Step down the rhetoric. His WW cheated on him for three years. Three years. The marriage has been dead for five. If he has lasted this long he can stick it out. 

Is it the right choice? Maybe it is for him. He doesn't want some other azzhole being a dad to his kids. If that is selfish, then I think he has a right to be selfish after all the heartache his sorry wife has caused him.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Step down the rhetoric. His WW cheated on him for three years. Three years. The marriage has been dead for five. If he has lasted this long he can stick it out.
> 
> Is it the right choice? Maybe it is for him. He doesn't want some other azzhole being a dad to his kids. If that is selfish, then I think he has a right to be selfish after all the heartache his sorry wife has caused him.


But what is the best for the kids? Unless he has had an objective and unbiased third party state that the children aren't being negatively affected, how can he say for sure either way?

Also just being married to someone and living within the same household doesn't automatically make them a mom or dad. It their actions toward the kids and the children's reactions back that create a mom/ dad situation, not just proximity.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

How much longer ?

Can she tell that you will leave once the youngest leaves home ? Does she even care ?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

I think Road Scholar will reach a similar state like slater did sooner or later.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> I cannot understand why would you feel sorry for them learning the lesson of sacrificing for the greater good. Something more important than their own happiness (their kids maybe). I am confused by this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Teaching them that sacrificing their happiness for others is necessary is not always the correct thing either. It is possible to have a life of your own and also be a stellar involved and dedicated parent, the two are not mutually related. Sacrificing of yourself so that you can provide for the children's basic needs (food, shelter, etc) is different than sacrificing happiness so that they may not be as affected. 

Each child is different, and what you are doing to make one happy may be alienating the other. Only an unbiased third party that they open up to can tell for sure what the children would benefit best from. Like I said giving up extras and unaffordable "niceties" to provide for welfare is entirely different than sacrificing happiness (as it is evident that the OP is unhappy with this situation, although since the relationship is better with he children, he is telling himself he is happier overall. He wouldn't know for sure on the limits of his happiness until he makes the move to remove from the situation, even temporarily, and that doesn't mean he has to remove the children from his life, heck he could get primary custody and be happier that way, who knows).


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

No affair, but my marriage has been dead for years. I am NOT going to break up my family because my wife doesn't love me. We are a family unit. We will stay together. We get along.

When my kids leave I will stay with my wife. It will be hard enough splitting up grandkid visits between my family and the spouses family. I will NOT split it up further.

I do my own thing now, she does hers. That ratio will change once the kids are gone, but I'll always have a house here. My kids will have parents. My grandkids will have grandparents. I am not going to throw that away because of my poor choice of a wife.

I'm not staying for the kids, I'm staying for the family. That blanket "it's bad for the kids to see a dysfunctional family dynamic" is not applicable to all marriages. We are a happy, INTACT family and I want to keep it that way. Splitting it up hurts EVERYBODY. I'm not doing it.

I support your decision OP. It's not the life you wanted, but that's...life.


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## slater (Feb 3, 2012)

I will provide what insight I can here. First I appreciate ALL of the input. I think you need a better picture of my family life. Now I will preface this by saying my parents divorced when I was in HS and probably should have years earlier- not that I felt that way as a kid though- but I accept the possibility that what I saw as a child and accept as the norm may not be a good example. And I think my fWW's experience was much the same. So maybe I don't even know what a happy healthy marriage looks like. 

With that said- I think our marriage is on the surface quite satisfactory. I think if there had been no betrayal I would almost be happy with it. The problem is that with the betrayal in the picture I expect more than I am getting. But we go on date nights, we kiss each other in the morning when I leave for work and when I come home. We almost never fight and never in front of the kids. We don't debase each other. We even play jokes and mess around. Our kids are doing quite well and I make a point to make them a priority. 

It's just that I can't bring myself to fully loving this woman again. I am protected and guarded and she isn't willing to open up to me and be vulnerable. We are that way with the kids- fully present, but not so much with each other. 

It is working well enough that the alternative seems less appealing to me. 

I am not missing anything. I will never look back and say I wish I would have left sooner. This is the choice I have made for me and my children. I take solace in that. When the situation changes I will adjust accordingly. If she cheats I will know and I will blow it up. I am more concerned about me cheating frankly but I control that.


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## slater (Feb 3, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> How much longer ?
> 
> Can she tell that you will leave once the youngest leaves home ? Does she even care ?


I don't think she knows. I wonder if I should be open and honest with her and I probably should. If she is paying attention at all she should have some idea but my guess is she doesn't know how far I am along the spectrum. I question what good would come from me telling her. Maybe that is just me avoiding conflict - the exact character flaw that led to this in her part. I will consider telling her.


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## RV9 (Sep 29, 2014)

Slater, do what's best as per you. Everyone has their own opinion. It's yours that counts.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

MachoMcCoy said:


> No affair, but my marriage has been dead for years. I am NOT going to break up my family because my wife doesn't love me. We are a family unit. We will stay together. We get along.
> 
> When my kids leave I will stay with my wife. It will be hard enough splitting up grandkid visits between my family and the spouses family. I will NOT split it up further.
> 
> ...


Very well put.:iagree:


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

MachoMcCoy said:


> No affair, but my marriage has been dead for years. I am NOT going to break up my family because my wife doesn't love me. We are a family unit. We will stay together. We get along.
> 
> When my kids leave I will stay with my wife. It will be hard enough splitting up grandkid visits between my family and the spouses family. I will NOT split it up further.
> 
> ...


Distance doesn't change things. Your kids will always have parents and their kids grandparents. You don't stop being these (unless that is your choosing) just by living in different locales or being divorced. If you are "happy" living in a loveless and uncaring situation, then so be it, but don't think that just because you co-exist that way that your kids aren't affected. You are biased (as you want to see the best) so you are not the one that can see it or judge it neutrally. Just like I have always told my STBXW that she doesn't get to tell me when I am hurt, you don't get to tell your kids they are happy or not (or decide they are either way), that is solely for them to decide (and it may take counseling for them solely to reveal the truth). Far too many times the WS and BS get themselves MC and IC but neglect to address the kids situation and get them the same.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Teaching them that sacrificing their happiness for others is necessary is not always the correct thing either. It is possible to have a life of your own and also be a stellar involved and dedicated parent, the two are not mutually related. Sacrificing of yourself so that you can provide for the children's basic needs (food, shelter, etc) is different than sacrificing happiness so that they may not be as affected.
> 
> Each child is different, and what you are doing to make one happy may be alienating the other. Only an unbiased third party that they open up to can tell for sure what the children would benefit best from. Like I said giving up extras and unaffordable "niceties" to provide for welfare is entirely different than sacrificing happiness (as it is evident that the OP is unhappy with this situation, although since the relationship is better with he children, he is telling himself he is happier overall. He wouldn't know for sure on the limits of his happiness until he makes the move to remove from the situation, even temporarily, and that doesn't mean he has to remove the children from his life, heck he could get primary custody and be happier that way, who knows).


Squeakr,
I apologize but I am simply unable to understand this line of thinking. As parents we make sacrifices daily for our children, it's what parents do. For several years I was very dissatisfied and unhappy with my job and yet I got up every day and went to work to provide for my family. The sacrifice I made paled in comparison to what my kids would have gone through if I had up and quit with no prospects for the future.

Also, his wife is not known for making the best "choices" and for me, the thoughts of my kids being raised by my wife's "choice" in men would be very unsettling and a prospect I would find unacceptable. 

Additionally, you mention having an unbiased third party determine if the kids are happy or adjusting well. Does this go for all the issues in life or just the marital problems. Parents are not handed a handbook when the kid pops out and we all do the very best we can to fly by the seat of our pants and raise them the way we think best. Some of us do okay and some not so much but that is how life currently works in our society. We do the best we can with what we have, IMO.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> Squeakr,
> I apologize but I am simply unable to understand this line of thinking. As parents we make sacrifices daily for our children, it's what parents do. For several years I was very dissatisfied and unhappy with my job and yet I got up every day and went to work to provide for my family. The sacrifice I made paled in comparison to what my kids would have gone through if I had up and quit with no prospects for the future.
> 
> Also, his wife is not known for making the best "choices" and for me, the thoughts of my kids being raised by my wife's "choice" in men would be very unsettling and a prospect I would find unacceptable.
> ...


Your kids don't have to be raised by the other man in her life, you could petition for primary custody. One thing to consider is if you question her "choices" in men, you are one of them as at some point she also chose you (so they may not all be that bad, in both the past and the future. She has made bad choices now and yet she continues to raise and have an influence on your children and will for the future to come. You can't protect them from all that is bad.) Just because a WW is still with you, doesn't mean that the children are not possibly influenced and affected by the poisonous OM, either. My STBX was having As on me when I was out of town for work, so I may provide for my children's basic needs. During these As she was taking the kids along to meet the OMs (yes there were more than one) and their families and friends and acting like it was normal (go outside and play while I "talk" to my "friend" in private, "Oh and we don't need to mention this to Daddy as he wouldn't understand as <said friend> is having issues and Mommy needs to help with them." Yes this is what she said to them). So just remaining in the same house is no guarantee of keeping them from this happening (heck my STBXW even brought them to my house when I was gone, another don't tell daddy situation. Tell me that is not detrimental to the kids?)
Also like I said prior, making sacrifices to provide for their basic needs is different than making sacrifices for what "you" think is in their best "interest". 

As to whether the counseling and unbiased third parties opinion applies to everything and not just marital issues, a big fat YES!. Kids don't come with a manual but if an issue arises that you can't handle or are unsure of then you should illicit advise from unbiased parties on it (be it healthcare personnel, family, or friends that aren't around them 24/7 like a parent so they can give a more neutral opinion and finding, as your opinions are colored by trying to do what is bets for your kids). If you see that you kids are struggling with an issue then it is your duty as a good parent to get them help. If you think something may be amiss then talk to friends and family and see what they think. It shouldn't be a head in the sand situation and hope that it will go away as generally it won't.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I think too much emphasis is put on how the children will perceive Slater's relationship with their mom. I think you all are making a bigger deal out of it than what it is. Slater says he and his fWW are getting along, they co parent well and there is little acrimony. 

How many of us had friends growing up who had great parents with good marriages, and they still turned out to be miserable fvck-ups? I had several buddies like that. Guys who had no one to blame for their state in life but themselves. 

How parents get along is only one factor in hundreds of factors affecting how a kid will grow and mature.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> I think too much emphasis is put on how the children will perceive Slater's relationship with their mom. I think you all are making a bigger deal out of it than what it is. Slater says he and his fWW are getting along, they co parent well and there is little acrimony.
> 
> How many of us had friends growing up who had great parents with good marriages, and they still turned out to be miserable fvck-ups? I had several buddies like that. Guys who had no one to blame for their state in life but themselves.
> 
> How parents get along is only one factor in hundreds of factors affecting how a kid will grow and mature.


Yes, but that is a factor that the OP has direct control over (and saying that the kids never see things is entirely his perception, as I know that I saw things as a kid my parents never thought I was privy to or witnessed). That is why a third party is needed to get the truth in such situations. I would have said the same about my M during the false R, but the kids have told their friends differently than they told their mother and I or lead on in front of us (the truth came out when they could be themselves and not feel they had to hold back for fear of retribution or judgement).


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Your kids don't have to be raised by the other man in her life, you could petition for primary custody. One thing to consider is if you question her "choices" in men, you are one of them as at some point she also chose you (so they may not all be that bad, in both the past and the future. She has made bad choices now and yet she continues to raise and have an influence on your children and will for the future to come. You can't protect them from all that is bad.) Just because a WW is still with you, doesn't mean that the children are not possibly influenced and affected by the poisonous OM, either. My STBX was having As on me when I was out of town for work, so I may provide for my children's basic needs. During these As she was taking the kids along to meet the OMs (yes there were more than one) and their families and friends and acting like it was normal (go outside and play while I "talk" to my "friend" in private, "Oh and we don't need to mention this to Daddy as he wouldn't understand as <said friend> is having issues and Mommy needs to help with them." Yes this is what she said to them). So just remaining in the same house is no guarantee of keeping them from this happening (heck my STBXW even brought them to my house when I was gone, another don't tell daddy situation. Tell me that is not detrimental to the kids?)
> Also like I said prior, making sacrifices to provide for their basic needs is different than making sacrifices for what "you" think is in their best "interest".
> 
> As to whether the counseling and unbiased third parties opinion applies to everything and not just marital issues, a big fat YES!. Kids don't come with a manual but if an issue arises that you can't handle or are unsure of then you should illicit advise from unbiased parties on it (be it healthcare personnel, family, or friends that aren't around them 24/7 like a parent so they can give a more neutral opinion and finding, as your opinions are colored by trying to do what is bets for your kids). If you see that you kids are struggling with an issue then it is your duty as a good parent to get them help. If you think something may be amiss then talk to friends and family and see what they think. It shouldn't be a head in the sand situation and hope that it will go away as generally it won't.


Primary custody for the man... You know what, let me just say this. I had not read anything on TAM about your situation and I wholeheartedly agree that your situation was toxic to the kids and that they would have been better off not being exposed to that. I do not perceive that level of activity in the OP's writings so I see it differently. May I just say I am sorry for what you went through and I will respectfully agree to disagree.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Yes, but that is a factor that the OP has direct control over (and saying that the kids never see things is entirely his perception, as I know that I saw things as a kid my parents never thought I was privy to or witnessed). That is why a third party is needed to get the truth in such situations. I would have said the same about my M during the false R, but the kids have told their friends differently than they told their mother and I or lead on in front of us (the truth came out when they could be themselves and not feel they had to hold back for fear of retribution or judgement).


Okay Squeak. See if Slater has a spare bedroom and go observe for a couple weeks. Report back to us.


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## slater (Feb 3, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Squeakr said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, but that is a factor that the OP has direct control over (and saying that the kids never see things is entirely his perception, as I know that I saw things as a kid my parents never thought I was privy to or witnessed). That is why a third party is needed to get the truth in such situations. I would have said the same about my M during the false R, but the kids have told their friends differently than they told their mother and I or lead on in front of us (the truth came out when they could be themselves and not feel they had to hold back for fear of retribution or judgement).
> ...


I dare say we are excellent co parents. Our children are thriving. This makes it harder for me to choose option B. I coach - she coaches , we are very well respected in our community. I have made a point to focus a little more on me though- to her detriment not the kids. 

My wife is not introducing the kids to anyone and is no risk to them. She is deeply ashamed by her affair. In fact that is probably limiting our R and her recovery and growth. I just wish instead of closing herself in she would turn to me. She seems unwilling to do so and so I am unhappy in the marriage. It's life. This part isn't what I was hoping for. But I'm not going to let it spill over into the other parts.

Oh and no room at the inn!


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Okay Squeak. See if Slater has a spare bedroom and go observe for a couple weeks. Report back to us.


It is not necessary as any trusted family friend and the friends of the kids (depending on the ages) could be a good gauge of how the children are affected. They would just need to talk to them. You'd be surprised what kids can and will say when you just ask them and pay attention/ listen to them. i probably wouldn't be helpful in such a situation anyway, as the kids don't know and aren't comfortable with me to be that open (at least not as open as they would be with trusted friends, family, and trained healthcare professionals, of which I am none of these).


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

slater said:


> I dare say we are excellent co parents. Our children are thriving. This makes it harder for me to choose option B. I coach - she coaches , we are very well respected in our community. I have made a point to focus a little more on me though- to her detriment not the kids.
> 
> My wife is not introducing the kids to anyone and is no risk to them. She is deeply ashamed by her affair. In fact that is probably limiting our R and her recovery and growth. I just wish instead of closing herself in she would turn to me. She seems unwilling to do so and so I am unhappy in the marriage. It's life. This part isn't what I was hoping for. But I'm not going to let it spill over into the other parts.
> 
> Oh and no room at the inn!


I hope your right, as I would have sworn my STBXW was doing none of that as well. She is a teacher, and is considered an upstanding member of society with a good reputation (well at least she had a good rep before the A exposure) and we had what I thought was a good M and others told us they envied what we had. She was home every night, no GNOs, no nights out of any type, and everything was verifiable as to be what she said (I had no reason to question and never did), yet she met them when I was out of town and when she had to go care for her ailing mother and father (a true fact and not a lie). She was hiding everything (text, emails, phone calls), etc and leading a double and hidden life. It was amazing the depth of depravity she had sunk to and the lengths she went to to hide it all.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> Primary custody for the man... You know what, let me just say this. I had not read anything on TAM about your situation and I wholeheartedly agree that your situation was toxic to the kids and that they would have been better off not being exposed to that. I do not perceive that level of activity in the OP's writings so I see it differently. May I just say I am sorry for what you went through and I will respectfully agree to disagree.


Yes primary custody. It happens. Just as Blacksmith, LuvMyJava, and others that it can happen. It is rare, but it can happen. As for my situation, I agree it was toxic, but until we separated the kids never divulged any of this to me, so I was unaware that it was happening and my situation would have been presented the same way the OP is presenting (as I had the same impression of my M and family life as he does, but realized that we didn't share the same opinions about things as my STBXW did. What a shock and let down it was to find out some of the other side of the story and how different it was from mine).


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

I met one person - one - who thought their parents should have split up.

I have met lots who had no opinion, or described one of the worst moments of their lives being when they thought their parents were going to split up - or when they did.

My youngest daughter said it was the worst moment of her young life when I packed my bags to go.

Whatever you do, do it with dignity. Don't cheat. Don't lie. Show your kids that turning the other cheek is the right thing. Show them that telling the truth is good. Show them that family is important and loyalty matters. Show them that what you do is more important than what you say. 

Show them that you love them and all else will be ok. Don't let your bitterness spill onto them - and I am betting you don't.

We are dead a long time.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

imjustwatching said:


> you're teaching your kids that it's OK to live like this and accepte it
> what you're doing is wrong, i feel sorry for your children





syhoybenden said:


> Life is too short to just piss it away like that.


To quote the Pope: "Who am I to judge?"

The OP has made his decision, and feels it has done good by his children thus far. 

His kids are humans, and will grow up to be intelligent, reasoning adults. They will have the ability to understand, and form their own conclusions. Don't underestimate the power of young people to recognize when a parent has made the best of a bad situation, and for their well being.

It is no foregone conclusion that this will train the kids in any specific way. They could equally see that their father put their well-being in front of his needs -- the proceed to insure such a situation never occur in their own lives. Lots of ways to learn.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

We've got a bunch of Save -the-Children Pied Pipers on this thread and it's creeping me out.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

NoChoice said:


> I cannot understand why would you feel sorry for them learning the lesson of sacrificing for the greater good. Something more important than their own happiness (their kids maybe). I am confused by this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure where the confusion is ...
It's called teaching your kids that bad marriages are acceptable and that cheating can be tolerated can taint kids moral values and I know this directly because I've seen it personally through numerous breakups I have witnessed and that the kids have grown up with the same values as their invalid parents.

Not a hard concept at all to understand


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Step down the rhetoric. His WW cheated on him for three years. Three years. The marriage has been dead for five. If he has lasted this long he can stick it out.
> 
> Is it the right choice? Maybe it is for him. *He doesn't want some other azzhole being a dad to his kids. * If that is selfish, then I think he has a right to be selfish after all the heartache his sorry wife has caused him.


bandit lots of great posts by you 

But this one gets my nomination for one of your best

That's well worth the sacrifice of a few years.

55


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> Yes primary custody. It happens. Just as Blacksmith, LuvMyJava, and others that it can happen. It is rare, but it can happen.  As for my situation, I agree it was toxic, but until we separated the kids never divulged any of this to me, so I was unaware that it was happening and my situation would have been presented the same way the OP is presenting (as I had the same impression of my M and family life as he does, but realized that we didn't share the same opinions about things as my STBXW did. What a shock and let down it was to find out some of the other side of the story and how different it was from mine).


two of my male friends have primary custody after suffering from affairs by their wives. It does happen. You are right


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

wmn1 said:


> Not sure where the confusion is ...
> It's called teaching your kids that bad marriages are acceptable and that cheating can be tolerated can taint kids moral values and I know this directly because I've seen it personally through numerous breakups I have witnessed and that the kids have grown up with the same values as their invalid parents.
> 
> Not a hard concept at all to understand


I see it differently. I see it as sticking through the tough times and not cutting and running on your kids. The A is NOT acceptable but IN SPITE of it Mom/Dad held on and persevered for me. What a terrible lesson to learn, that when faced with possibly the toughest adversity one can imagine a person stays and takes it on the chin for their kids. If you perceive that as weak then I strive to be the weakest among us.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> But what is the best for the kids? Unless he has had an objective and unbiased third party state that the children aren't being negatively affected, how can he say for sure either way?
> 
> Also just being married to someone and living within the same household doesn't automatically make them a mom or dad. It their actions toward the kids and the children's reactions back that create a mom/ dad situation, not just proximity.


Someone knows what's best for his kids. That'd be our man Slater. He's the dad on the spot, after all!:smthumbup:


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm in the same camp as Bandit and MattMatt. As long as your wife is civil then it is quite honorable to follow the route.

I'll just add something to consider: By taking divorce off the table, you aren't knowing if your wife will give you much more if her hand was forced. If your intention is to remain until your youngest is above a certain age and then bail, you'll find out then.

If she won't give anymore when that day comes and you part, the choice to stay will be vindicated. OTOH, if she suddenly realized just how vacant you feel about your marriage and steps up her game, it will be years wasted where you both could have been happier.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

slater said:


> I don't think she knows. I wonder if I should be open and honest with her and I probably should. If she is paying attention at all she should have some idea but my guess is she doesn't know how far I am along the spectrum. I question what good would come from me telling her. Maybe that is just me avoiding conflict - the exact character flaw that led to this in her part. I will consider telling her.


We slaughter the waywards for not being honest and telling their partners how they truly felt when they were on the precipice of starting the affair.

You always get the spouse going, why didn't they just tell me it was like that?

You're guarded, she's guarded. Seems like you're just two people looking after kids. That's cool, you're both adults, but surely you need to tell her how you truly feel, so there is no ambiguity. All this talk about waiting until the kids leave, seems like an awful waste of precious time to be co-existing zombie like with no true life and perfunctory sex.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Slater,
I just wanted to apologize for allowing myself to be side tracked defending a position that needs no defense. You have made your decision and I applaud you for it. Those that disagree, it's up to them to present their point and dissuade you or not. We offer our opinion each in their own way, how you accept it is your decision. Again, sorry.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Someone knows what's best for his kids. That'd be our man Slater. He's the dad on the spot, after all!:smthumbup:


Never said he wasn't doing what he thought was best for the kids, just that he might not know that the kids were being hurt. Just perspective from someone that has been there. The truth never came out until the distance was put into place through the separation (and yes we had the kids to counseling to do what is bets for them, but they were unresponsive with the couselors). I tried to stay and R for the kids (and myself), thinking it honorable and what's best for the kids. It was pointed out to me by a friend that the kids were seeing no love in the house (except towards them) and not viewing good role models of marriage and adult relationships (it wasn't always fighting and arguing like some perceive, in fact was mostly just two people living together that no longer had things in common, wanted to share time and moments together, and never really interacted. Not good adult relationship role models and that is all I trying to get the OP to see that this is detrimental as well, as the kids see there is no love and begin to wonder if this is how things really are? I am not trying to sway or change their opinion, just open eyes to the things we don't or might not want to see and therefor miss, which I would have had it not been for that friend).


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

slater said:


> I dare say we are excellent co parents. Our children are thriving. This makes it harder for me to choose option B. I coach - she coaches , we are very well respected in our community. I have made a point to focus a little more on me though- to her detriment not the kids.
> 
> My wife is not introducing the kids to anyone and is no risk to them. She is deeply ashamed by her affair. In fact that is probably limiting our R and her recovery and growth. I just wish instead of closing herself in she would turn to me. She seems unwilling to do so and so I am unhappy in the marriage. It's life. This part isn't what I was hoping for. But I'm not going to let it spill over into the other parts.


Would your choice to stay until the kids are out change if you thought you could get custody?

Just part of your story reminds me of the limbo I was living between Dday1 and Dday2. WW was going through the motions, but put more effort into rugsweeping than working on repairing our relationship. I was willing, and trying. But just didn't seem to get anywhere. 

She was very embarrased about her affair. So, I didn't expose far and wide. Just a select few. And I suffered in silence. Feeling alone, but believing the affair was over. 

Much to my shock, turns out she had 2 other affairs, and one had continued on, under my nose during our period of false R. Really explained the distance I felt and her unwilliness to continue to talk about and work out things in the aftermath of Dday1. After a couple of years to doing a good job of leaving no trace, she made a mistake and I found evidence that put me on the trail to Dday2.

Long story short, she went of the deep end for a bit. Which helped me with custody. I told her I would take care of her financially in the D, if she let me stay in the house with the kids until youngest was out. She agreed, and we negotiated everything and had an uncontested divorce. 

We are both excellent co-parents to our kids. I think the fact she trusted me, helped with that. I was really shocked she didn't fight me for custody. I think the key to that was her embarrassment. If she were to fight, I was going to drag out all of my evidence, and everyone was going to see all of the seedy detials. Details she didn't want exposed. 

I guess my word of warning is, are you sure there isn't something else going on? And if there is, do you really want to wait it out? Fathers make excellent residential parents. Especially for older children.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Per NoChoice;

I see it differently. I see it as sticking through the tough times and not cutting and running on your kids. The A is NOT acceptable but IN SPITE of it Mom/Dad held on and persevered for me. What a terrible lesson to learn, that when faced with possibly the toughest adversity one can imagine a person stays and takes it on the chin for their kids. If you perceive that as weak then I strive to be the weakest among us. 



My reply:

I never said it was weak as you suggest. In some ways, it's admirable and agree with your jist to an extent. However, I agree mostly with Squeakr and Larry Gray makes a great point too.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

wmn1 said:


> Per NoChoice;
> 
> I see it differently. I see it as sticking through the tough times and not cutting and running on your kids. The A is NOT acceptable but IN SPITE of it Mom/Dad held on and persevered for me. What a terrible lesson to learn, that when faced with possibly the toughest adversity one can imagine a person stays and takes it on the chin for their kids. If you perceive that as weak then I strive to be the weakest among us.
> 
> ...


Slater and his wife live together amicably. They keep arguing to a minimum, they coparent their children well together, they do family stuff, they coach sports, they're active in the community....and even if Slater isn't saying so, they are most likely meeting each other's sexual needs. 

I'm making some assumptions here: Okay, so there is no husbandly love there on Slater's part. That is understandable. It may come back, it may not. Doesn't mean his wife doesn't love him. She may or she may not. 

Doesn't mean he has absolutely no affection for her. I can't imagine there isn't at least little bit of friendly affection between them. They may not be "in love" in the Romantic sense, but If the partnership is there and strong, other parts of the relationship can compensate. 

All marriages are different. Many don't conform to what some of us percieve as what should be normal. That doesn't mean those types of marriages are destructive to children. Not at all. That's another assumption....that if the married couple are not madly in love or falling all over each other all the time then that is somehow going to negatively affect the kids. I think that idea is bunk. 

Give a child safety, shelter, guidance and love, and nine times out of ten he or she will grow up to be a pretty good adult.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Great post Bandit.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

wmn1 said:


> I never said it was weak as you suggest. In some ways, it's admirable and agree with your jist to an extent. However, I agree mostly with Squeakr and Larry Gray makes a great point too.


Very good then. All we can do is offer our opinion as we see it. The OP will use what he needs, discard the rest. We are all trying to help.




cpacan said:


> Great post Bandit.


Ditto.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

My concern now is that OP, despite his best intentions, is being eaten alive by his wife's deeds. I firmly believe that he does not see deep remorse as was evident in Mrs. Mathias post. If he saw that in his WW, I believe his load would be lightened somewhat and his resolve would not be so tested. The rugsweeping, whether consciously or subconsciously, is causing him to be stuck in limbo unable to move forward. What a shame.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> My concern now is that OP, despite his best intentions, is being eaten alive by his wife's deeds. I firmly believe that he does not see deep remorse as was evident in Mrs. Mathias post. If he saw that in his WW, I believe his load would be lightened somewhat and his resolve would not be so tested. The rugsweeping, whether consciously or subconsciously, is causing him to be stuck in limbo unable to move forward. What a shame.


The shame lies with his wife. Her shame is what is keeping her held back. Some WSs cannot deal with their shame. They let it consume them. That is no reflection on Slater, and if he is able and willing to hold up his end of the marriage for now, more power to him. 

Let's face it. Most of us are (not me ) are married to people who have suffered some form of emotional amputation, and will never function at 100%.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> The shame lies with his wife. Her shame is what is keeping her held back. Some WSs cannot deal with their shame. They let it consume them. That is no reflection on Slater, and if he is able and willing to hold up his end of the marriage for now, more power to him.
> 
> Let's face it. Most of us are (not me ) are married to people who have suffered some form of emotional amputation, and will never function at 100%.


Exactly, his wife is more concerned about saving face than saving Slater. That's what's a shame. More power to him is right because the way she is trying to skate on this I fear he will need it.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> Exactly, his wife is more concerned about saving face than saving Slater. That's what's a shame. More power to him is right because the way she is trying to skate on this I fear he will need it.


Depending on how old the youngest is it won't be for long hopefully. Maybe between now and then she will have some sort of Come to Jesus epiphany.


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## slater (Feb 3, 2012)

Let me try to touch on a few of these. First though, thanks for the input. It is healthy to hear the opposing opinions to make me think a little, so thanks to those that voice a different opinion than mine. Otherwise there is no point to posting. And thank you to those supporting my actions, that helps me validate my decision. All good stuff.




BobSimmons said:


> We slaughter the waywards for not being honest and telling their partners how they truly felt when they were on the precipice of starting the affair.
> 
> You always get the spouse going, why didn't they just tell me it was like that?
> 
> You're guarded, she's guarded. Seems like you're just two people looking after kids. That's cool, you're both adults, but surely you need to tell her how you truly feel, so there is no ambiguity. All this talk about waiting until the kids leave, seems like an awful waste of precious time to be co-existing zombie like with no true life and perfunctory sex.


Bob there is a lot of truth here. I am struggling with this. I mentioned in one of my posts, I am exhibiting a Wayward behavior by not being honest with her. Perhaps this is the most important takeaway for me from this thread. I will try to be more honest.



larry.gray said:


> I'm in the same camp as Bandit and MattMatt. As long as your wife is civil then it is quite honorable to follow the route.
> 
> I'll just add something to consider: By taking divorce off the table, you aren't knowing if your wife will give you much more if her hand was forced. If your intention is to remain until your youngest is above a certain age and then bail, you'll find out then.
> 
> If she won't give anymore when that day comes and you part, the choice to stay will be vindicated. OTOH, if she suddenly realized just how vacant you feel about your marriage and steps up her game, it will be years wasted where you both could have been happier.


So this goes a little hand in hand with my prior statement. I have not taken D off the table. Like I said, we haven't communicated much on the topic in awhile, but within 6 months there was a point when I was more vocal about my needs being met (emotionally and physically) and divorce was implied as the outcome. I wouldn't say I threatened D per se, but she got the picture that it was in play. 

I had hoped that would change things; and it did for a few weeks. But then back to blah. I certainly don't want to go there again. I told myself next time I have to actually file. It could happen.



NoChoice said:


> My concern now is that OP, despite his best intentions, is being eaten alive by his wife's deeds. I firmly believe that he does not see deep remorse as was evident in Mrs. Mathias post. If he saw that in his WW, I believe his load would be lightened somewhat and his resolve would not be so tested. The rugsweeping, whether consciously or subconsciously, is causing him to be stuck in limbo unable to move forward. What a shame.


Resolve is being tested. DS7 and DD10 go a long way to embolden me though. No doubt all I really want is deep remorse from her. She jumps from "project" to "project". This fundraiser for the soccer team, this deal for school. I think since DDay there have been about 5-8 of these multi-month projects involving her attention. She also is fully employed with a high level career. I just wish I could be the project. (insert sad face here). But yes the sitch is not good. If it were I wouldn't be posting!!!



bandit.45 said:


> Depending on how old the youngest is it won't be for long hopefully. Maybe between now and then she will have some sort of Come to Jesus epiphany.


10 more years!
We can always hope. But then again in my business we always say - "Hope is not a strategy!".


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Are you guys having sex at least?


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## slater (Feb 3, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Are you guys having sex at least?


Yes. But she is uninspired. I still think about him getting it so much better. I hate even having this thought now. Makes me very upset still.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

that's hard to think about Slater. It's not fair to you that she is uninspired after what she did to you and the visions in your head will haunt you. if they didn't, you wouldn't be human IMO


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Yeah. That sucks. Not that I'm encouraging it, but have you had to fight thoughts about having an RA?

Has your fWW ever offered you a hall pass?


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## slater (Feb 3, 2012)

She offered a pass at 1 month post dday. Pissed me off and I let her know it. I got somewhat close to an RA last year but I came to my senses. 

It steeled my resolve to act with moral purpose. If you have been there then you know it also really pisses you off because you know it is possible to back down from those opportunities and it makes you even more mad that your spouse chose not to. KWIM.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

slater said:


> She offered a pass at 1 month post dday. Pissed me off and I let her know it. I got somewhat close to an RA last year but I came to my senses.
> 
> It steeled my resolve to act with moral purpose. If you have been there then you know it also really pisses you off because you know it is possible to back down from those opportunities and it makes you even more mad that your spouse chose not to. KWIM.


You're a good man Slater.

Probably the reason your WW doesn't feel worthy of you. She knows you have everything she lacks. She loves you AND resents you for it too.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

slater said:


> She offered a pass at 1 month post dday. Pissed me off and I let her know it. I got somewhat close to an RA last year but I came to my senses.
> 
> It steeled my resolve to act with moral purpose. If you have been there then you know it also really pisses you off because you know it is possible to back down from those opportunities and it makes you even more mad that your spouse chose not to. KWIM.


But you are operating under the premise that your spouse was offered the opportunity and didn't pass on it, which is lots different than when your spouse is the one that created and offered the opportunity. One generally isn't going to back down and step away from something that they wanted and created. Two entirely different situations. 

I too was in the "hall pass" situation, and I didn't take up that offer either (as I knew it would make me no better than her) and when I later mentioned what would have happened had I have done it, she flat out said she would have left and divorced me. Now there is some first class hypocrisy for your @ss!


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Hall passes are often nothing more than shyte tests. WSs think it levels the playing field. All it does is diminish both of them more.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

slater said:


> Yes. But she is uninspired. I still think about him getting it so much better. I hate even having this thought now. Makes me very upset still.


I read a lot of your posts today.

You mentioned things she'd done for the OM but not you. Has that still the case? Or has she rectified the "not you" part?


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Slater,
I believe she is throwing herself into these "projects" purposely to avoid being with you too much. As Bandit said she sees in you that which she cannot be and I think it shames her. Unfortunately, her avoiding her shame is worth more to her right now than your pain is. Therein lies the problem.

You might consider talking with her about how you plan to leave once the youngest leaves the nest. Let her know she will be looking at a future of either loneliness or endless broken relationships because, as she is, she will sabotage any relationship she gets into, eventually. See if she likes the prospect of such a future. When we are young the fun, excitement and intrigue can rule the day. As we age however, those things become less important than knowing someone is there for you, always.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

slater said:


> No doubt all I really want is deep remorse from her. She jumps from "project" to "project". This fundraiser for the soccer team, this deal for school. I think since DDay there have been about 5-8 of these multi-month projects involving her attention. She also is fully employed with a high level career.



My spider senses are tingling.


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## slater (Feb 3, 2012)

Acoa said:


> My spider senses are tingling.


Sometimes mine do too. Not anything like before though. I keep an eye on things. There is a chance I am missing something, I can't deny that. But I think I am pretty thorough. Part of me doesn't care. But part of me really does!!


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Stay vigilant. 

but it sounds to me like you are determined to stay for the kids no matter if she cheats again or not?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> You might consider talking with her about how you plan to leave once the youngest leaves the nest. Let her know she will be looking at a future of either loneliness or endless broken relationships because, as she is, she will sabotage any relationship she gets into, eventually. See if she likes the prospect of such a future. When we are young the fun, excitement and intrigue can rule the day. As we age however, those things become less important than knowing someone is there for you, always.


This could be a double edged sword if you want to maintain the peace and the current situation, as if she feels that it is just a timing thing (buying time until the kids reach a certain age) then she may just say f it, I am getting mine and pursue whatever interest fancies her at the time. As many have said she could then see it as a "why waste anymore of my life" sort of situation.


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## slater (Feb 3, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Stay vigilant.
> 
> but it sounds to me like you are determined to stay for the kids no matter if she cheats again or not?


Zero chance of me staying if anything even close happens. Not worth that!!



Squeakr said:


> This could be a double edged sword if you want to maintain the peace and the current situation, as if she feels that it is just a timing thing (buying time until the kids reach a certain age) then she may just say f it, I am getting mine and pursue whatever interest fancies her at the time. As many have said she could then see it as a "why waste anymore of my life" sort of situation.


Yeah- I tend to agree. Plus there is hope she comes around. No point making that decision now.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

slater said:


> Yes. But she is uninspired. I still think about him getting it so much better. I hate even having this thought now. Makes me very upset still.


You BETTER tell her that it pisses you off. And on top of that you laugh and joke with her regularly. Jeez, she has no clue. Also, wtf is up with you wishing she would read your mind and/ or sense you are unhappy? If you are unhappy, tell her.

IMHO, I don't believe she is feeling much shame at all. My guess is she manipulates you into believing that talking about the affair causes intense emotional trauma for her. I don't buy it.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

BobSimmons said:


> We slaughter the waywards for not being honest and telling their partners how they truly felt when they were on the precipice of starting the affair . . .
> 
> surely you need to tell her how you truly feel, so there is no ambiguity . . .





slater said:


> . . . Bob there is a lot of truth here. I am struggling with this . . . I am exhibiting a Wayward behavior by not being honest with her. Perhaps this is the most important takeaway for me from this thread. I will try to be more honest . . .





Squeakr said:


> This could be a double edged sword if you want to maintain the peace and the current situation, as if she feels that it is just a timing thing (buying time until the kids reach a certain age) then she may just say f it, I am getting mine and pursue whatever interest fancies her at the time. As many have said she could then see it as a "why waste anymore of my life" sort of situation.





slater said:


> . . . Yeah- I tend to agree. Plus there is hope she comes around. No point making that decision now.


So, maybe it comes down to what is more important to you -- being principled or being _'practical.'_


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> This could be a double edged sword if you want to maintain the peace and the current situation, as if she feels that it is just a timing thing (buying time until the kids reach a certain age) then she may just say f it, I am getting mine and pursue whatever interest fancies her at the time. As many have said she could then see it as a "why waste anymore of my life" sort of situation.


Yes, I agree, my point being she is kind of already saying F this by not wholeheartedly pursuing R. 



slater said:


> Zero chance of me staying if anything even close happens. Not worth that!!
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah- I tend to agree. Plus there is hope she comes around. No point making that decision now.


So, by letting her know you're not in this to be plan B, it may hasten her to realize that you are not into the current state of your marriage and that any investment she puts into it, short of HLR (heavy lifting reconciliation), is a waste of time. Plus, if she is going to "wander" again in the future, it may help in her decision making process to know it will end right then, period.

I know there are various possible outcomes, the most favorable being she has her "come to Jesus" moment and starts HLR, but at least she knows and is fully informed that her current level of investment is insufficient to maintain her marriage after the kids leave. And it puts you in the position of full disclosure so she can never say "why didn't you tell me you were out of here when the kids leave?".

This is most likely what I would do but you must make the decision that you feel gives you the best chance of reaching your desired outcome. And I say "most likely" because know one really knows what they will do in any given situation until they face the beast toe to toe. I offer this as food for thought.


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