# My Wife thinks I'm a sociopath, I should leave



## amIcrazy

It's easier just to copy stuff out of my personal journal. Some of this is long, but if you read the first entry you get the gist of what's going on.

I'm just interested in points of views.

Yesterday's Entry:

I'm leaving my wife because I'm mentally and emotionally killing who she is. I've been doing it for about 10 years and fighting a losing battle with it for the last 5. I think it's some type of disorder I have. 

She wants me to put her first and foremost in all that I do. Each time I prove/show that this is not true she is emotionally damaged. Over the years she has told me that she builds a wall around her caring about what I do which allows her to disregard her feelings about a particular activity. But I say that deep down she still feels hurt when I take a particular action. In a few instances she draws a line and insists that I change, I try but always fail at some point. This wounds her even deeper.

I just am tired of tearing her apart time and time again. I have some good characteristics, but I really think she can do better and ever day she spends with me is wasted time on her part.


Last Week's Entry:
She's said that she thinks that I am a sociopath (but not a psychopath). I match about 80% of the symptoms (see below) but not all of them. I don't think I am but I definitly have some personality issues. I can ignore social norms at whim and not feel remorse or guilt about it. I don't like to appear out of the ordinary so I don't do things that are against social norms if I will get "caught". But given the choice between doing something I find pleasureable and not doing it because it's not normal. I will do what I want. To be honest, I don't even ask if its normal, I just ask who is looking or might find out.

My wife and I have been together for 13 years and have a 4 and 11 year old. I have never done anything to physically damage any of them. And to be frank I abhore violent physical actions and will go out of my way to avoid them. 

However at this point I think that I have mental abused my wife and have been for a number of years. Her mental image of what marriage is has to do with a husband who is supportive, respectful, appreciative and does certain "manly" things around the house. I don't really have an image of what marriage is, I want a woman who is faithful, takes care of my kids, spends time with me, and screws me on a regular basis. And that's it, everything else she does is really irrelavant to me. I don't recognize her for doing it, because to me...she does it for herself. Of course this hurts her deeply as she feels not appreciated. I don't know why, but I simply don't "see" these things, so I can't recognize them. I train myself to periodically speak to her about it, but I'm going through the motions and she can sense it.

Last Week's Entry:
I can not empathize with her. What upsets her does not upset me and I can't truly relate. For example: I can understand why she is upset when I glance at another woman. But I can't empathize with her. If she glances at a man, I don't care...I know that she is loyal to me. If she thinks that I am being unloyal to her by looking at another woman, that is her fault. I know that I am not. She would contend that if I know she feels that way I would not look. I tell her that this is not natural to me and I don't have enough time to rationalize all that before instinct takes over. 

That does not mean I'm looking at every ass that passes by. I do a fairly good job of keeping my eyes focused. But only when I'm focused on keeping my eyes straight. (This goes back to the I only care about social norms, if I get caught).








Today:
So my problem is determining if I am a sociopath or not, keeping in mind that sociopath are very good at making their abnormal behavior appear socially acceptable:

http://www.lovefraud.com/01_whatsaSociopath/key_symptoms_sociopath.html

Trait 1: Glib and Superficial
I'm very good at holding a good, entertaining conversation. I interject wit at the right time, emblish stories and generally stay jolly. I'm not really interested in what you have to say, but I want you to think highly of me and this is the best way. I'll do this for the first 2 or 3 conversations so you get that good first impression. Then I retreat and let you rattle on while I think about something else. 50% of the time, I'm not there, but I appear to be.

Trait 2: Egocentric
I have a large ego. As I told my wife, I walk through life on very solid rock. I know exactly what I stand for and who I am. I'm ok with the fact that you don't know me. I don't care what you think of what I do, cause I do what I want to do. I'm smarter than 90% of the population. I'm cuter than 80%. And I can hold my own with damn well anyone. And nothing you say, do, or feel can change any of that.

Trait 3: Lack of remorse
Some people would say I don't feel guilt about the right things. I do feel guilt about some things though. They are just odd things to feel guilt about and the guilt does not sit with me for long or make me feel like I should do something about it. It's more like about an hour after I've done it, I get this heat flash, I shake my head say damn I shouldn't have done that. Then I move on. That's about it. This is feeling guilty but not remorseful. I'd content that I don't exhibit this trait.


Trait 4: Lack of empathy
I am able to understand why people get upset, but when asked would that upset me, my typical answer is no. Her: "I feel bad when you look at other women." Me: "OK, I can understand that, I will stop". Her: "But how do you feel about me looking at other men?" Me: "I don't care". If feel emotions, I have cried about things. I have gotten angry. I have felt ashamed and/or embarrased. But they were for such different things that I can't use them to relate to how she and other people feel. That doesn't mean I lack empathy, that means I can't relate. I think. I'm on the fence about if I exhibit this trait.

Trait 5: Manipulative
When I was young, I thought I was just dodging trouble. Looking back, I can say that I do/did manipulate people and I do it so naturally and easily that I don't even realize that I do it. A subtle word, a certain body stance, the right smile. Walking up at the right time. All of it just happens and I only realize it when I look back and examine my actions and the outcome. My wife thinks I do this ALL the time. I say it happens less often, the rest of the time luck was on my side. I do acknowledge that I manipulate situations more often then the normal person.

Trait 6: Shallow emotions
This has gotten worse the older I have gotten. I rarely ever feel deep emotion anymore. It takes quite a bit to "break" something out of me. The only one that happens often would be happyness, but its usually releated to pleasure so I'm not sure this counts. I can smile, laugh, shed a tear, get angry, but it does not sit with me for long. I quickly move back to the neutral, carefree attitude.

Trait 7: Impulsive
I'm certainly impulsive. I do things at random when they urge strikes me. But I'm able to reign this in, I can be focused and move with a purpose. However when I'm out to have fun, this impulsiveness is very strong. I'm liable to do anything if I'm out on a night on the town. I certainly have this trait.

Trait 8: Poor Behavior Control
I struggle with this one. I don't "blow up". I'm level headed. I'm known as the most laid back person people know. When tested and I do get angry, it's a cold hard type of anger. I think of my anger as a beast inside me, that is extremly dangerous and should never get let out. Ever. So when I get angry, I wall it up, chain it and then let it rattle around inside me. I will say that it does manage to lash out even when caged and when this happens, I'm liable to say things that will do serious mental damage. Hurtful, faith shaking, self confidence shattering, ego bruising things, the type of things that sit with you and eat at you later on. As a youth I got into fights and physical alteracations very infrequently. But when it happened I did tend to go to a further extreme then needed. I am very scared of what might happen if I fully lose my cool. very scared. 

So I would say I have very good behavior control and poor methods of expressing my feelings. I don't think I have this trait.

Trait 9: Need for excitement
I like having fun but I'm not over the top. I've done recreational drugs, but don't do them on a habitual basis. I don't live life on the edge or enjoy things that threaten my life or freedom. I am easily bored but can deal with routine by looking forward to the next break in it.

I don't think I suffer from this trait.

Trait 10: Lack of responsiblity
I do have regard for my responsiblity, but my trick is that I don't make many commitments so I don't have a lot of responsiblitiess. My favorite phrase when asked to commit is "I'll try". Cause its not a commitment to succeed...its acknowledging that I will do it as long as it doesn't conflict with my current goals.

Now, I love my kids, I make sure I care for them, I take time to be with them. Same for my wife. These are responsiblities that I take serious. In 13 years,I've never cheated on my wife cause its a commitment that I made.

I think that in order for anyone to get me to commit to a responsiblity, they have to get me to commit to myself to do what ever they want, not commit to them or verbally commit to something.

I don't think I have this trait, I think I dodge responsiblity.

Trait 11: Early Behavior Problems:
I was a rough boy who rebelled a lot as a kid. But I not anything more than my siblings, friends and neighbors. Not an issue

Trait 12: Adult Anti-social behavior
Yes, the rules of society are inconvient to me but I need you to play by them so I can have more fun. Odd. I don't do illegal things though because the risk of getting caught keeps me in line. But things that speed limits and stop signs are not meant for me. (unless a cop is on the corner)


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## amIcrazy

I think that no matter what promises were made, if I am the cause behind harm to my love ones. I should leave. If I knew someone that caused her as much pain as I do. I would cut them out of her life for her. What makes me more special?

I fully plan to uphold my financial responsiblities to my kids. I would not let her come to financial ruin in this process. To be honest she can take everything I have. if it leads to her future happiness.


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## amIcrazy

I ask myself can I be that selfless, is my love for her so deep that I would send her away or leave her? If so how can I not love her enough to change.

That question has run through my mind for years, and I try to change. I really commit to it but some how the change never truly takes root. I can go through the motions, but that's just not enough to last through the years.

We've been to thearpy, the result "We need to communicate our needs more clearly to one another". In answer to that we make "contracts" with one another and create boundries for given scenarios. But we just can't cover them all. Or in my cleverness I found a loophole to keep doing what makes me happy.

This is silly and ridiculous. There are folks in this forum (world) with much larger problems, our seems so trivial in comparision. But to me they are huge.


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## HappyHer

Yes, sorry, I think you are crazy. Your wife is looking for validation, not for you to change who you are as a person.

You don't have to empathize or even agree with someone, but showing that you understand them will go miles and miles. For example - "I can see that you are very upset that I was looking at that other woman. I care about you and don't want to hurt you, it was an unconscious gesture on my behalf and she, nor any other woman could hold a candle to how deeply beautiful you are to me."

See? You "understood" her feelings, offered her assurance of your unconditional feelings towards her.

Honestly, communication is NOT the core answer that most couples need. There are several other keys that are more important and emotional validation is one of them. That doesn't mean that YOU have to be emotional, or to even understand or agree with her emotion - but you can understand that she does have that emotion and validate that.

Give it a try for the next week and see if that decreases any of the tension to what you are going through with her. Also, include her in your decisions even if they aren't about her, she'll feel welcome and involved in your life and that you are treating her importantly as your wife.


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## amIcrazy

Thanks HappyHer,

I do relate to her this way. I tell her I understand her feelings, I sincerely apologize, I ask how I can make it up and I try not to do this again. 

But regardless of my sincerity it happens again and again. 

I know that doing this for a while will decrease the immediate attention, but the repeated failures to live up to expectation is killing her. While I am not affected.

>> showing that you understand them will go miles and miles.
I guess I've used up all the miles that sorry and I understand can give us.


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## HappyHer

Perhaps you are apologizing too much. Apologies are very good and amends even better, if you are truly sorry and will not replicate an action, but too much apologizing seems weak and not as special if it's done overly much.

Have you let her know that you are beginning to believe that she will never be happy with you and that you are thinking about leaving? Perhaps you'll learn a lot when you share those feelings with her in a non-blaming way.


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## amIcrazy

I would agree with you. Apologizes are only good as long as they can be accepted by the other party.

It's funny you should ask if I've talked with her about leaving. She asked the same thing last night. I told her I needed time to gather my thoughts before discussing that.

About a year ago, we did talk about me leaving (for all the same reasons). At that time, we decieded to try counseling (for the second time) We went for about 2 months, once or twice a week. We discovered some trust issues on my part oddly enough and came up with a new set of "rules" for the both of us. 

Lieing was not in the ruleset, but I can see how she thought that was a given.

She told me last night that as long as I realized that something was wrong with me and I wanted to change it, we should definitly try to make our marriage last. I told her I was sure there was something wrong with me and I had not made up my mind on the second part.

Frankly, I do want to change, but given my track record and knowing what I know about myself. I suspect that change is impossible. To me, this thought by itself is the same as not wanting to change. or maybe the thought is as detrimental to change as not wanting to.

Thank you for helping me articulate my thoughts, I'd like for you to continue questioning me.


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## HappyHer

Yes, and only if "Sorry" means that it won't happen again. Apologizing over and over for the same thing isn't really being sorry about it.

It sounds as if your wife wants to work on things. It sounds as if you are questioning whether you want to or not. 

I'm not sure why you keep mentioning the word "change". How else are you growing as a person? Not changing who you are, but growing in the characteristics, skills, and learning of life lessons that will create personal improvement and enhancement? Do you feel growth in these manners might contribute to a happier relationship?

You sound very intelligent. I'm sure you realize that if you leave the situation, it is still going to be there in the next relationship or even turned towards others in your life. I would make particularly sure that you have worked through the issues. Then, if you still aren't happy being with your wife, then consider leaving. But it doesn't sound as if the issues you have are irreconcilable, only challenging. But what's life if not challenges to grow?


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## amIcrazy

yeah she wants to work it out. Like an abused woman who wont leave her abusive man. I'm frustrated cause she is so willing to continue to let me do harm to her. I want to scream at her "Don't you see how I treat you. Don't you hate me for it! I would NEVER let you do this to me." (sigh, that is the hardest part of all this)...I guess you call that guilt.

********10 min later**********


>> Not changing who you are, but growing in the characteristics, skills, and learning of life lessons that will create personal improvement and enhancement?

To be honest...I like myself the way I am. When you're not interested in personal improvement, what reason is there to grow? 

>> But what's life if not challenges to grow? 
Entertainment

The ability to change or grow has to come from somewhere inside you. Without the drive, the will, the fundamental, deep down inside need to change, change will not happen. You are who you are at the core, and only by changing the core can you change. I'm not interested in changing my core, cause I like it. At my core I am about living MY life to its fullest. Careing/loving/sharing for others is mixed in with that but it is not top of mind.

Hummm, maybe changing my core would mean being 100% committed to someone else(her). Putting her above my own needs... that is a recurring theme in her and I conversations. If this is indeed the case, then I'm not on board. I am selfish in the fact that my needs come first and I live for myself. 

It's odd, that sounds so bad, but I think we are all like that. I love my kids and would thrown myself in harms way to stop them from hurt. But would I give them the last piece of chocolate cake? NO. It's mine and its going to taste good. That might seem silly but if you are truly putting another 100% above your own. You give them the cake everytime. right?

Now, that's a silly scenario (the cake), but you try to figure out where the line is between the NO and the Yes. I think most folks will find the line much closer to their own needs then they think. It seems natural to me.

I'm just arrogant, stupid, careless enough to freely admit it.

>> I'm sure you realize that if you leave the situation, it is still going to be there in the next relationship or even turned towards others in your life.

Oh yes, I know. if this does not work, I can look forward to a long lonely road. Surprising that has not ever really bothered me. My wife is the one person in life I have ever had anything but a superficial relationship with. Not including mom, dad and siblings (5 of them). Until I met my wife I stood on the shore of friendship, dipping my foot in and enjoying the view, but never really going swimming. I never felt the need. to much obligation. 

"to much obligation" (I'm not sure I meant that, but it popped out).


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## amIcrazy

I'm trying to stay coherent and on track, but all this stuff just jumbles together.


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## HappyHer

yeah she wants to work it out. Like an abused woman who wont leave her abusive man. I'm frustrated cause she is so willing to continue to let me do harm to her. I want to scream at her "Don't you see how I treat you. Don't you hate me for it! I would NEVER let you do this to me." (sigh, that is the hardest part of all this)...I guess you call that guilt.

If this is true, and you feel poorly about it - why aren't your treating her better? Or, are you being sarcastic and demeaning her because you don't feel you are abusive, yet she accuses you of it? Which is it?


To be honest...I like myself the way I am. When you're not interested in personal improvement, what reason is there to grow?

- I like my house. If I don't do home improvements - what kind of house will I end up with when the roof starts to leak and the paint is peeling? Self improvement is no different than that, only you are doing it for your mental and emotional growth. Besides I believe you have too much pride to allow yourself to become a stagnant remnant in a quickly growing and changing world.

Entertainment quickly becomes dull and boring if it's not growing. Just watch some of the old sitcoms and let me know how exciting it is after the 20th or 30th time.

Ah! Too much obligation. You go through life, perhaps dipping your head below the surface, but never reaching for the depths - because of obligation? I think not. I think fear and trust issues. Sure, it sounds great to be nonchalant and have a devil may care attitude about it, but what quality of life do you have when you are too scared to dive in and get truly down and dirty with it?

Oh, and about putting yourself first. Yes, we all do that and self care is never selfish, but your wife's needs are every bit as important as yours and she wants to feel respected in that fact. She wants to feel gratitude for the fact that she bore and is raising your children and probably doing a million other things for you while you bask in her hard work and enjoy the last piece of cake for yourself. What if you took the last piece of cake and shared it with her bite by bite? How much more would you enjoy it knowing that you were able to indulge yourself and someone else, and not just yourself? What rewards would come back to you when your wife is happy that you thought of her in that way - that will last long after the last bite is gone? Think carefully on those, I'm not accepting "off the cuff" answers just because it makes you feel good to stay twice removed.


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## amIcrazy

Honesty is what you ask for, I need to know the truth as well. 

Yes, I am mentally abusing her. The actions I perform are causing mental damage. She might say it is not, but if the world knew they would call it the same. She's never said I was abusive, but she is not ready to deny it either. In her words, "This is the type of man I always end up with".

>>why aren't your treating her better?
It is not natural for me to treat her how she believes she should be treated. I treat her better than anyone else in my life. Unfortunatly the bar is rather low. I think this goes back to the changing of my core values. I have to change my values to align with hers. So that I can treat her the way she deserves to be treated.

Self improvement
There are superficial improvements or minor adjustments that I make to myself as the years go by. They are not changes to what i would call my core. My self image of myself has been pretty constant since college (10 years ago). This keeps the the paint from chipping and the roof from dripping. But I've never tried to "add a garage" cause I'm not interested in drastic changes.

Entertainment
There is always something more entertaining to do in life. Some way to change my dull routine. I haven't found life boring in 20+ years. I think this train of thought might be a red herring though.

>> because of obligation? I think not. I think fear and trust issues. 
Yeah, this might be true. I've know for years that my personality is not the societal norm. Trusting someone with that knowledge is not done easily (at all to be frank). If you thought you had serious potentially damaging problems would you take the risk of letting folks find out. I'm definitly not there.

>>what quality of life do you have when you are too scared to dive in and get truly down and dirty with it?
Maybe I am unique in this but I don't feel a need for it. Maybe because I never had it, I don't miss it. (a child who never had ice-cream doesn't really miss it...do they).

I know you are telling me that I'm missing something by not diving deep and getting dirty. But that takes a bit of fearlessness and will that I don't have. (for previously mentioned reasons)

>> What if you took the last piece of cake and shared it with her bite by bite?
That would be nice, and yes it would create a great memory. But it would get old, sharing cake, and then resentment would build. My wife and I have and still have some great times together...when things are good...things are GOOD! 

>> What rewards would come back to you when your wife is happy that you thought of her in that way 
As I see them, no great rewards are in store. But that might be a cynical view. I have everything I need from her. We have sex on a regular basis, it's great for me. We spend time together, which I enjoy. She cares for my kids. I don't need anything else from her. I can wash my own dishes, clean the house, fold the clothes, all those mundane day in and day out items that folks say make a good wife. I just expect her to do at least as much as I do (which is not a lot)...and anything over that is really not gravy for me...that's time she is taking away from us. or fun. or our kids time with her. I look at it as a waste.


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## HappyHer

It's not natural to tie our shoes, or learn how to ride a bike. Those were some pretty hard tasks to master and there was certainly pain expected, especially when learning to ride a bike. What else have you done in your life that wasn't "natural" for you, but you persevered, because it was worth it to you?

How in touch with Your core are you? It sounds as if ten years ago, you decided who you were and are okay with that - but how deeply did you go? 

Even if your house were made of stone, it would still need maintained in some order to keep it in the best shape. Not everyone needs a garage, but when the drafts come in because you haven't reinforced the mortar, you'll wish you would've taken the time.

Listen, you know where you need to improve. Improving is not changing, it's improving. Apparently that's what your wife wants to see and you cannot put yourself in the position of judging what she is truly happy with, as that has to come from deep within her.

I would say, start showing your wife ALL that you are. If she can't love you for ALL of you, then all the work on your behalf may not even be worth it. That doesn't mean to treat her in a way she may not deserve, that means to share the parts of you that you fear are unlovable. Chances are, she's seen most of it anyway and still loves you, so throw it all out on the table. What have you got to lose if you are the one considering leaving anyway? Why not make attempts to beat her at providing her with her own needs, while you also create what you want from the arrangement?

Why would sharing cake get old? Because it's always chocolate, or because you always use a fork or spoon? I can think of many more ways to share cake than the same old way time after time. Your creative - think of ways to keep it entertaining.

It's not true that you don't need anything else from your wife or you wouldn't consider leaving and breaking up your happy home. If your needs were so fulfilled, you may go that extra mile instead of saying you don't feel like it, you might even want to be "that man" that your children learn from as an example of how to become successful in their own relationships. So, what is it that you really need from her? Acceptance? Forgiveness? Understanding? Space? What are your needs that leave you feeling like you should leave - you've said it yourself many times that you are selfish, being selfish, you wouldn't only leave because you think she would be happier.


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## amIcrazy

Thank you Happy.

I'm going to think on this tonight. You've got a good point with that last post. I don't have a good response...yet.


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## Mandia99508

Honestly, after reading ALL of this, and it took a while. Jeez, a long while. I think you are very much like my STBXH and I'm leaving him. He actually has told me he would prefer to spend the rest of his life alone so... if that is what he wants that is what he's going to get. 

Sooo my question to you, and I'm hoping for a simple answer is. What do you want? Because in all of this writing... I haven't read that. 

And on a side note: it is very unlikely that a man of your "nature" would keep a journal so kudos to you on that. They may think you're crazy, but keeping a journal either A) fills some strange narcissistic purpose, or B) you're worried about losing of your memory, or C) you actually have a soul in there somewhere. 

To me I think you harbor a great deal of self doubt. It's down in there, and you truly more than anything don't want to make an attempt at anything and disappoint yourself. It seems in fact that you are almost entirely incapable of disappointing yourself. You assume doing this or doing that is a basic/automatic set up for failure. Most men, don't tolerate failure, but bigger men at least try, and the biggest men accept failure as it comes, rather than shy away from it all together. Do you get what I'm saying?

You can't be "afraid" to fail or even assume you will, especially when it comes to saving your marriage. That is just simple negativity something my STBXH suffers from chronically. He lives on the dark side of the street while wanting to hold my hand as I stand in the sun, trying to pull him in to it, but he simply thinks it's not good or it will burn him. He likes the darkness and the ignorance, he's comfortable there. He's quite frankly just stupid and doesn't know what's good for him. So I'll let him go, tip his bottles back again and again, and he'll be dead at 45. He'll never grow up, he'll never experience anything worth while because he's so afraid change. He deals with his lack of exciting life with daily inebriation.

Life is full of challenges and opportunities, and even those can be "entertaining" as you say. Some maybe not so much... but experience is what it's all about. I don't see how someone wouldn't want to share in those experiences with another person (for life). Sharing everything with someone is sometimes what makes doing those things worth while, so you two have memories that you enjoy. Fondly. I wish my husband would wake up out of his "whatever you call it" state and get with the program. Life is passing him by, and the one that he's got, he stews and hates it, no matter what it is. He'll be chronically unhappy because he doesn't want to be part of the experience. 

Okay, I went off on tangents there, but again I ask you... WHAT DO YOU WANT?! I expect an answer. And a good one from a man who can write like you, it better be a doozie.


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## amIcrazy

Mandia - Thank you for reading and more importantly contributing. I did not write this for 215 other folks to paw through without responding.

HappyHer - Your words are leading to a change in our life. I'm not sure if I will ever share this thread with my wife, but thank you for helping me make some decisions.



A few minor points: I lied I don't keep a journal...those things are just what I wrote down the night(s) before posting as I tried to get my jumbled thoughts together. Again...I've got some issues.

I'm not sure what an STBXH is but it sounds pretty final to me. 

If I were in your shoes I would not apply what I am writing to your husband. I've got a peculiar background that has made me the way I am. I'm not sure a lot of men think like me.

(I'm going to write this last part as if to my wife...we had some serious conversations last night and I'm feeling ... strongly)
*******************************

What do I want...
I want to be left as I am. Take me, enjoy what I do that makes you happy. Ignore and never mention the parts that make you sad. Frankly I want you to act like the bad parts never exists. This is impossible but this is what I want. This is my fantasy that I can not ask of you.

I want you to take care of my kids. Raise them with me. Keep me from seeing them as weights in life. I need you to take them when its getting to be too much.

I need you to make love to me. Twice as much as you think I want you to. Not to keep me out of another womans bed, not to "prove" you love me, not cause its make up sex time, not cause it hurts, not cause you are my wife. Do it cause you want to have me, cause you want ME. Make me know that you feel for me in our bed and I can doubt you no where else. Do it so often it hurts.

I need you to pull your half. If you are going to work, bring in as much money as me. If you are not going to work then pull your weight by keeping the house together and a meal in front of me. Yes, I will vacuum the living room, but that means you have to clean the kitchen. Yes, I can take care of the kids for two nights, but that means you have to do the same for me.

That is all I need. That is all I want. My wife does all of these exceedingly well. Even the first one, she pulls off that as well as I think anyone can. 
********************************

(I read back over that last part, to be clear with you all, this is how I feel today, some of the above points have to change in the future and some wants are going to be added, in order to give my wife what she deserves.)


Last night, I posed a question to her. I'll put it to you...Its possible for me to change, but I will have to be 100% open and truthful with her. There are a lot of land mines and half truths in our past that I have not corrected. It is going to be EXTREMELY painful for her to hear some of my truths. So I asked her:

Are you ready to be hurt a whole lot more in order to get a honest man? The truth of how I feel and felt is going to be brutal.

Are you ready for me to change into something or someone I am not today? I can but once I do, I/we won't be able to go back.

I asked her to wait a day to answer those, but she did not...she did take an hour or so...then she said yes, she wants to move forward.

We talked till 4AM last night, made love twice...sorta. I have only seen my wife cry 3 times. Last night she cried for hours. I won't say I felt ****ty about it, because I warned her. It did take us down a new road for the two of us. I found the conversation difficult as I wanted to "mold" the truth at every turn, and had to phrase things tactlessly in order to stay within the truth. (It was odd).

>> I think you harbor a great deal of self doubt.
I can see how you might think that. I would beg to differ. To me, self doubt means that I question or am uncomfortable with aspects of my personality. I am not. I am OK with who/what I am. I'm just not OK with YOU knowing what I am. Not because I worry what you will think of me. But because I worry that I can't "play" in your life because you might shut me out. I'm very social and have lots of superficial friends. I feel like I am not explaining this concept well, but I'm not sure how to state it better.

I don't judge folks. Ever. Your thoughts/feelings/opinions are as valid as mine. When we differ, it does not make mine wrong, it does not make yours wrong. It just means we are different. I am very comfortable with this. I will engage you in conversation on our differences of opinion, I do this to push you, and I, to understand your points of view. I challenge them just to see if you are strong enough in your stance to stand a test. It's a game to see if I can convince you to change your thoughts. Not cause I need you to think like me, but because it's the utlimate power trip. I am/was able to get you to think your own thoughts were wrong.

That's why it's dangerous to have a conversation with me about your circumstances. But if you want to go there it is ok with me.

>> Life is passing him by, and the one that he's got, he stews and hates it, no matter what it is.

Who is to say letting life pass you by is a bad thing. No one hates everything in life, otherwise they would end it. I suspect there are some things that bring you man pleasure. But he is not sharing it with you, or he is refraining from it (for you) for as long as he can.

Perhaps he enjoys the darker side of life...I'm going to stop talking about this.
**********************


----------



## Mandia99508

Thank you for sharing your wants, and it's difficult but I'm going to refrain from commenting on them. (I will say though, you've got a knack for writing). I, like you, simply don't judge people, I simply observe and develop a "theory" I call it. Not judgment. It's healthier to see the world this way, I think.

As for the STBXH it means Soon To Be Ex-Husband.

I appreciate what you have said here about him. What he is doing is not necessarily wrong, it's just strange. If he enjoys being strange I'm going to let him. I just can't sit by someone like this for the rest of my life, because it is not healthy. I might add, he was not always this way. When we met he was social and full of life. Then one day... it all changed. I married him, hoping that someday the darkness would pass, hopefully with children or maturity. The problem is, he is not maturing, he maintains a pretty good effort at doing so & staying stagnant in his growth. Which I don't care what anyone says, is not the way humans are supposed to behave. If we are creatures of anything, it is growth and maturity. Simple basic primal growth. There is simply no arguing with that. Maybe you are at a level or age in your life with growth is no longer necessary but he is not. Simple as that. I'm excited to move on, and stop trudging through the mud with him. I know that one day, he will regret all of his behavior because eventually it will all catch up with him, even though he has the same issue with guilt as you do, although I know things eat away at him, thus the need for so much alcohol. But one day, and maybe I'm just telling myself to make this easier, he'll realize he made a lot of mistakes in letting me get away. I was a good wife, and am a really good woman. I would have followed him around the world for all of our lives. I wanted to spend my last breath telling him how deeply in love with him I was. He pushed me too far though, and that is the mistake that sociopaths usually make, they bring people in assuming it will be okay, but after awhile they put their guard up when things get too close to the chest and that is hopefully the mistake you won't make with your wife. 
Pushing someone away is a lot easier to do than most men realize. But I think you want her close to your chest. Just remember this woman is the mother of your children and therefore makes her THE MOST important woman in the world. She doesn't feel that way. I don't know how to make her feel this way, but it would start by treating her as such. 

Anyway... I'm all screwed up in my life right now, so what do I really know? I could go on and on about the mistakes my husband has made and encourage others to not to do the same. I suggest maybe you read my other posts and see what I was actually dealing with. He is jumbled mess of a person. Whom I have cared for regardless, and now all I can think is "oops, my bad"


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## GoDucks

This is a FASCINATING read! My H and I are in lots of therapy right now, and he has been 'diagnosed' with a personality disorder along the lines of where you are.

So, some points... The personality that is along the lines of anit-social or sociopathy - the problem ISN'T with you. That's the whole problem. It's the wake that you leave. So, there is no real motivation (or understanding) about why you should change. If you don't have empathy, then your wife's sadness is her problem... Just like you have observed & stated. She has to leave to get away from this issue. If she wants a spiritual connection, she has to go elsewhere. You can tell her that according to books, 4% of the population has this 'thing' you have, so she's likely to find love elsewhere. I read "the sociopath next door", which is brutal but helpful.

I have stayed for 13 years. I'd say the last 5 have been bad. Our story is long, but what has essentially held us together is the ease and efficiency of our life. The household runs well. Parenthood - not so much. He doesn't participate. The therapist says that is sort of normal, due to his inability to be connected. 

So, I'm also like the abused wife that cannot leave. I will, I'm sure, but it's a slow path. Because our life works. It's not love. It's efficient. You might do her a favor to force this separation.


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## amIcrazy

I would strongly disagree with you. I can change who I am. I am a product of my environment. This is not something I was born with. I made a choice due to my circumstances to be who I am. If I made the choice then I have the ability to make a different one now. I can't speak for your husband or anyone else on how they got to where they are.

To explain, I was raised in an extremly religious house. Almost cult like. My father was military and not around but once a year or so. My mother was in this church and it was everything to her. From the age of 1 to 16 the only folks I new where the church. It was not a bad church in the fact that everyone is/was trying to live by gods word and had nothing but good intentions at heart.

However, there was the church and then there was the world. Everything that happened outside of the church was ungodly and would damn me to hell. Everyone not in the church was a sinner, without the lord and destined for hell. The devil was every where my mom (and her church friends) were not.

I lived with this and accepted that this was the simple way of the world. Till I got to middle school. Around 11 years old I started to question what was true and what was not. I could type a book on that sentence by itself.

To cut to the quick of the thing, at 11 I began to create my own set of moral values. I did not trust adults or readings or people to show me right and wrong. I had to figure it out and draw my own boundries. 

Imagine that, if you will...an incredible smart adolescence told that the world is his to do what ever he wanted to it. As long as he could be ok with his actions.

My first line was physical damage. I couldn't live with that, it hurt to see others in pain. 

I had previously learned that all actions had some sort of payment. I got spankings regularly and can remember early on making decision thinking...this is worth about 20 swats...I'm only going to get 10...let's do it.

So that brought along the duplicity. I could do whatever I was ok with, but I had to escape punishment to make it worth while. The ultimate motive for a liar. And with no moral guide to guide me...as long as I could get away from it, it was ok.

Imagine again if you will, I'm ALWAYS around folks who NEVER lie. Want to save my soul by telling my mother about my sinning ways. Yet I'm 100% ok with what I am about and fully intend to do it. The only question is who can catch me. It's like a boot camp for liars. I became very good at it.

So good, that I would set folks up for lies that I have not even told yet. In anticipation that the setup for the lie is there. 

It became a habit. It's instinctual. It's defensive. It's easy. 

This is not a good thing, but it is my reality.

To wrap back around, I made some choices as I grew up on what was and was not OK. I changed some of those choices but one of them is the thought that it is OK to not care about someone elses feelings. To move through life in my way and damn what everyone else thinks. Of course this feeling got stronger each time I did it and "got away" with it. It reaffirmed that what I was doing was not wrong.

That choice can be different, it can be changed. It's just going to be damn hard at this point.

FYI: I am not an atheist, I believe in a higher power. I'm dodging him at the moment by not making a choice about what I believe in. If there is a heaven and hell, I am going to burn brightest. Its the final payment for all I've done.

**************************************

My wife is very disturbed and hurt at the moment. She thinks that who she married is an avatar for who I am. A fake, nothing, a shadow. But she loved the shadow so much, and now he is gone. Taken by the one she loves. In her words, "It's a total mindfk".

The truth is an ugly, brutal, deadly beast. I hate it. I would kill it for her. But I can't she wants to make a pet of it.

I can't blame her for any of it. I'm weathering the storm hopeful that sunshine is still in our future.


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## GoDucks

Well... The therapist literature is against your opinion... So, if you can figure out how to change and become an empathetic person, you'll have a publishable novel, for sure. My guess would be that you wouldn't see the benefit of changing. For a minute, fine. For life? To BECOME empathetic, and not keep score? Why would you want to? Makes you too vulnerable (and to you, probably seems dumb.).

My husband's up-bringing wasn't wildly different than you. He's super smart, and is also motivated to have a comfortable life. It's not like he's violent or evil or something. (although he has killed his fair share of squirrels for no reason. lol) But, he doesn't have empathy. So, when I want someone who "gets me", he looks at me like I have 2 heads. He doesn't even get WTH that means, other than we have history, and we are efficient. He thinks that IS getting me.

According to our therapist, this sociopath stuff is (arguably) rooted back to a mother's love and affection. When you have a deep connection with your mom at an early age, then you learn to forge those with others later. However, like my H, it sounds like your mom's didn't necessarily happen. Most sociopaths are boys. I can understand my H's... He has sisters, and she liked them more. Simple. She still does. So, between the sisters and the church, he was supposed to man-up and stop crying, basically. 

I have a question: at the end of your post below - you said you'd "kill for her. But I can't she wants to make a pet of it."... What does that mean? What does she want to make a pet? Your sociopathy?


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## AFEH

GoDucks,
A lot of people don’t “get” another person. I didn’t get a lot of my wife’s behaviour, I came to accept it without understanding it. Didn’t matter how much I read about it, that just told me how her mind may have worked, not how it did work.

Then again my wife just doesn’t seem to have empathy. There are many things that happened over the years that led me to that conclusion. She too was a very efficient and very responsible person. Something happened 5 years back when I came to the conclusion that my wife is just not capable of supporting me emotionally. Worse than that she appeared to be totally indifferent to how I was feeling and what I was going through. It was extremely hurtful.

Like you I took the decision to stay with her, I was deeply in love with her and I’d had a lot of joy and happiness with her.

You seem to know what you’re doing by staying with your husband. No empathy means no emotional support, no sympathy or compassion in your marriage. At times my wife looked upon me as an investment, yuk.

I couldn’t take the lack of empathy anymore, I’m separated for 10 months and I’m just starting divorce proceedings. My wife still doesn’t “get” why I separated, a person who doesn’t have empathy doesn’t know they don’t have it.

Bob


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## amIcrazy

>> a person who doesn’t have empathy doesn’t know they don’t have it.

Hummm, I'm not so sure about that. I can recognize that you "feel" something that I don't. It's wierd/odd that you feel that way.

>> kill for her. But I can't she wants to make a pet of it.

I don't know what I meant, sometimes this stuff just comes out. If I think the truth is a beast, some type of animal that is hurting her. I would try to kill that animal. I guess in this case I would hide or deny the truth with lies (figurativly killing the truth). But she doesn't want me to lie to her, she wants it all out in the open, she wants to enjoy and love our truthfulness. "She wants to make a pet out of it". It just seems backward to me.

I started this post by saying "My wife *thinks *I'm a sociopath". I'm not quite convinced. I think I have the tendencies but not all of them. Empathy is one that I'm on the fence about. I mean, I have emotion, I get emotional, but I don't seem to do it when others think it appropriate. *shrug* this is very difficult to describe.

>> if you can figure out how to change and become an empathetic person, you'll have a publishable novel, for sure. 

It is a matter of will, and I do have a lot of that. I'll let you know.


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## GoDucks

Well, from what I have read (the insurance diagnosis guideline book in the therapist's office), you don't have to have *every* quality in spades to get the diagnosis. 

For sociopathy, there are (something like) 7 key traits, and a person has to have 4 to get the diagnosis. Empathy is one. Following social norms is one. I don't remember all of them.

For schitzoid, it's something like 3/5.

There are a bunch on this 'axis 3', that are all personality disorders, and they are all similar. My H has ONE LESS than diagnosis quantity of every diagnosis on this axis. So, he's in the category of 'non-specific personality disorder' or something like that. I recognize that it's an insurance game in the therapy world, but it's helpful to understand that you don't have to be the extreme to be there in some manner. It's a spectrum. Obviously, you aren't in jail, and most sociopaths (all extreme ones) are. 

From the tone in which you write and think through things... I'd say you're there somewhere. I wish I could see this much clarity with my own husband. It would help me leave him! I say this, because you are very objective about all things emotional, including your own wife's happiness and her spiritual connection to you. You already know you would have to deceive her to help her believe you have it, too. You are simply wired different, and you probably have been since the early nurturing days of your life (this is the therapist regurgitation here, but no reason to believe it's different). This is just like my H & me. Gut wrenching pain for the person who feels. 

You are helping me understand my own H better, and the responsibility I have to my kids. Does she realize you cannot 'connect' to them? Is there one kid that is her favorite? Chances are (like us), she believes you are connecting to the other one, because your personalities are more alike. However, unless she wants them to grow up wired like you, she needs to step up and have more affection to that one, or they WILL be wired like you. 

I have changed my behavior a LOT toward the kid of ours that I *thought* was more bonded to my H. Problem is, H isn't connected to him (can't), so I know it's going to get screwed up for my son without H even knowing what he did. I need to step in there and be the key parent for both kids, or one will grow up like this. Not fixable at 46. Still fixable at 6 (I hope).


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## AFEH

My wife actually suppresses her emotions. In over 4 decades together the amount of time I saw her sad or cry I could count on one hand. This comes from her childhood. Her mother tried to commit suicide three times. My wife does not like her mother. Her whole family is so very low on emotional expression, I tried a hug with her father one time and it was like hugging a lamp post. Even now we’re separated she’s trying to suppress her emotions, she’s just not letting them out but when they force themselves out it’s in a very uncontrolled way. She’s things inside her she’s bottled up for years. She bottled things up such some 20 years after a supposed offence of mine she’d blurt it out. Never could get her to see a counsellor, even after her brothers suicide she spent just an hour with one and “didn’t talk”. Some years after her sons passing her other son told me his mother had tried to hug and kiss him. He said it was the first time ever and it just didn’t feel good to him at all.


Right now I think she’s has PTSD for five years since her brothers death. My wife is exceptional proud of her emotional control and chided me because I can be read like a book. I’m a very open and expressive person.

I spent years looking into why my wife couldn’t support me emotionally, in every other way she was a wonderful wife and mother, that’s why we were together for so very long. I came to the conclusion my wife simply refused to empathise, she didn’t like the emotions, it’s what she learnt as a child. Somehow she has a fundamental core belief that negative emotions are wrong. Smile and everything’s ok and it will all go away. Righto.

Now I’m separated I’ve been spending time with single women. I’m absolutely amazed about the emotions they show when they talk about a past sad event. They get watery eyes and look really sad. I’ve never seen my wife like that. 

You can learn empathy. It is possible to do but like all things like this in life you’ve got to want to do it, there has to be a driving need. Take a look at Empathy read up on emotional intelligence, it was a fad a few years back and still is somewhat.

Hope this helps

Bob


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## amIcrazy

>> Does she realize you cannot 'connect' to them?

It's a dangerous road your looking down. I love my kids, I take time to make sure they are normal. I don't allow my wife to argue in front of them. I let them see the world as they like, but I let them know what society says is wrong and let them know why. I especially don't push my lack of morals on them. In fact I count on my wife to give them a firm spiritual grounding. I would hope that neither of my son's end up in my place.

Suddenly, I am very...very...angry that you would suggest that I am raising my sons poorly. With the intention to do so or not.

********************************************

I am a computer programmer with 15+ years...I understand and have the competency to ensure my identity will not be found out from a post on the internet. This is the only reason I feel comfortable sharing in this fashion. You all have a clearer view of me then my wife. At this point, this is too much to lay on her. We will get there, one way or another.

Again, I can't say that your husband feels the same way as I do. But if he does, he cares for you but he is who he is. Nothing will change that without his will to make it so. Everything but that simple fact is irrelevant. He has boundaries that he won't cross, but he is not going to be willing to articulate those to him. He may not even know them.

If I was on the opposite side of the fence...I'd try to break him by asking him to tell me his truth. Written. Never talk it out...words are too ambiguous and easily thrown out/disregarded/manipulated.

Writing something is very close to internal dialog. Even if it is in chicken scratch. He will be forced to ask himself hard(er) questions.

The key to making this work, NEVER violate his trust by reading what he wrote unless he gives it to you. Even if he leaves it laying in the middle of the living room floor. If he wrote it but didn't give it to you...he can always claim it was not meant for you. Plus it gives him the right to never right again.

I've been to 4 shrinks/counselors...these root issues never came up. It was always trust and communication. Mostly because I let it go that way and it was the easiest route. 

I think that a sociopath is not identified unless he does it himself OR wants to be diagnosed. The trick to living this way is to appear normal. As soon as you suspect me of not being normal, I can't fool you...and I don't want to be around you if you know the truth.

So thinking about that, what do the psychologist really now about all the problem children who never show their true face...a lot of theories and not a lot of facts.

***************************************
The roughest part of all this, is that my wife thinks there is something wrong with her. She's not done enough for me, not pretty enough, not at home enough. This can't be further from the truth.

I'm having a really hard time getting her over this so she can see where the real problem is.



***************************************

>> because you are very objective about all things emotional, including your own wife's happiness and her spiritual connection to you.

I read that and immediate thought of our wedding day. I cried at the alter so much that her maid of honor gave me her hanky. I'm talking snot dripping, sobbing tears. I remember thinking I was soooo happy. There is emotion there...its just different.


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## amIcrazy

Thanks for the thoughts Bob...I was writing the previous post and missed yours.

I'll do my homework.


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## Affaircare

amIcrazy~

I wanted to leave you a note that I've been reading along, and I'm working on writing you my typical longish response; however, based on what you've said and even the way you write here, I am not only NOT convinced that you're a sociopath--but also I am convinced it is a personality type difference. Now before you utterly poo-poo the idea, I am an MB personality type with some strong F (for feeler) but enough tendency toward T (for thinker) that I can go into an analytical mode and understand it a bit--something like 60% F and 40% T. My dear hubby is a much stronger Thinker (80%+), and I personally think you may be even stronger than that (90% or more). That doesn't mean you have no feelings or don't experience emotions; it just means that the way in which you experience them is not the same as the way a Feeler would. A Thinker's primary method of interpreting the data they gather is to analyze, fit it into certain formulas, and thus deduce a likely result or response. To a Feeler that would sound cold because there is not feeling in there... and that's because a Feeler's primary method of interpreting the data they gather is to experience an emotion associated with the data and then respond to the emotion which brings about a result. As you can see, the two ways of doing things are very different! My theory is that your wife is very high Feeler (80-90%) and if you don't "feel" things it makes no sense to her how you live and experience things. 

Anyway, I wanted you to know I'm working on writing something for you.


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## AFEH

Here’s a thought for you. Projection is a powerful thing. A person’s a thief? They think everyone else is a thief. A person’s disloyal, they think everyone else is disloyal. People project the things they don’t like about themselves on to others.

Why am I saying this?

"My wife thinks I'm a sociopath". Could be she thinks she’s a sociopath. Ain’t life complicated? And there you were at your wedding truly feeling your emotions. Bless you Man.

Bob





amIcrazy said:


> Thanks for the thoughts Bob...I was writing the previous post and missed yours.
> 
> I'll do my homework.


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## GoDucks

OK, so first I will apologize for my role in your anger about the implication of your children. If you are ensuring that your wife is connecting spiritually to them, then I believe you. Given the resources you have, I think that is the best answer, for sure. Before I understood H, I didn't know that it was entirely my responsibility to do the connecting, so I let the natural draw toward 1 kid happen, and now I have to make a point to be affectionate JUST AS MUCH with the kid that is more like H. Even though we don't have that natural rhythm together, I reach out to him every single day to make sure he bonds with me.

With regard to your privacy... I hear you! I struggle with similar issues here. Honestly, this string hold tons of info about my own situation. 

Also, fascinating about your emotions on your wedding day... There is something there! I think you need to latch on to that and build. I don't think there is a question of your love for your wife. Knowing what I do from my own situation, the only question is about your definition of love vs. your wife's. I certainly have that issue. I know H loves me more than anyone in the world. Problem is, love doesn't mean the same thing for him vs. me. For him, it's chivalry, politeness, I dunno... It's not emotion! 

With regard to the diagnosis stuff... I'm not claiming to be right. We have done counseling before, and it always came down to conflict resolution (because we are a pair of opposites in many ways). Trust, communication, blah blah... However, conflict resolution this has never been the issue. We were opposite when we met. It was a matter of letting someone in. The guy we have now got in - somehow. He's also smart, and he's been counseling for 40 years. And, he's seen this before. So, he got there in just a few weeks. Now, H is trying to figure out how to put the walls back up and back away. The desire you described about not wanting to be with someone once they know the 'truth', he has that same feeling. He wants to be away from therapist guy now, for sure. Says bad things about him, throws the walls WAY up, etc. But, in our joint sessions, I can see through most of H's BS, and I call him on it. I DO want to fix this and see if we have a salvageable marriage.

The part I struggle with now is that I feel like I have been "duped" for 15 years. All the moments and struggles when I thought we were connecting to the soul, we were not. That was just me. I recognize that we could find a point that he does all the right things so that I am happy enough. We could behaviorally train him to do X when I do Y. But, it feels like I'm signing up to continue a mirage. Is that what I really want? It just feels so FAKE! Then, I have to continue to remember that we are efficient. The kids are great and well mannered and all that. We are financially stable. ugh. what to do?


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## amIcrazy

>> before you utterly poo-poo

I won't poo-poo a good idea. Sorry if previous posts come across that way, I've just been down those roads and know the story.

I'm more than half way through convincing myself she is right, I might be a sociopath but I'm willing to grasp at anything different that I can believe in. 

FYI: I have not explored the thinker vs feeler personality types.

****************************************
Talked with the wife today, she has started the "decoupling and reconfiguration started years ago. " (her words)

I'm sure she tried to warn me at some point and I missed it or didn't want to hear it.

*****************************************

Don't feel like typing a book this time, so I'll leave it at that.


GoDucks - I have some things to say about your situation, but am not in the mood to articulate...right now. Don't feel bad, I asked for questions and advice.


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## Affaircare

amIcrazy said:


> ...
> I won't poo-poo a good idea. Sorry if previous posts come across that way, I've just been down those roads and know the story.
> 
> I'm more than half way through convincing myself she is right, I might be a sociopath but I'm willing to grasp at anything different that I can believe in.
> 
> FYI: I have not explored the thinker vs feeler personality types.


No worries amIcrazy! You have not come across that way at all. You come across extremely logical and factually accurate, articulate, and self-aware.


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## amIcrazy

Well things feel apart last night. We went out together she did some heavy drinking. I did my fair share. We got home and she wanted to talk. I told her I was too drunk to tell the truth and we could talk in the morning. I fell asleep or passed out. Either way I woke up about an hour or so later. She was raging. It started with her throwing a shoe and proceeded to the point where she was throwing full force punches in my face. I left to keep from getting hitting or hurting her. 

I'm not going back. I'm trying to understand what to tell my young teen. He spent the night at his friends house lastnight and tonight. Tommorrow willbw rough for all of us. 

I'm taking the day away from everything. Trying to figure out my next step.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HappyHer

So, you were worried about leaving her because you are the abuser? I would say there are some definite reasons to separate at this time, especially to save yourself from getting mortally wounded from some raging person.

Yes, take your time and stay in very close contact with your teen. Make sure you get the point across that it has nothing to do with your love for him/her.


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## amIcrazy

Today, I'm writing for the folks that have been following this thread more than myself. I'd like to let you see the full story.

My wife claims that in my drunken state I said "You don't want the truth, you can't handle it" and I said it with "glee". This was the last thing that set her off.

I don't remember saying that and it doesn't sound like me. But it does sound like me saying something close to this and she took it the wrong way. Typical for us. She is very bright, but I'm complicated and tend to assume she connects the dots when I don't explicitly say something. Evidently that night I was not communicating well. In my defense I knew this was going to be the case and tried to head it off.

Afterward, I stayed in hotels a few nights and then I called her and told her we had to meet and discuss logistics for our boys. Of course as soon as I got in the house she wanted to talk and try to understand why I was leaving. I think she wanted to convince me to rethink my decision. I was ruder than normal and cut her off. I told her that's not what I was there for. 

She insisted that my sons need me more than they need her so in an odd twist, she told me to stay at our house while she left. I didn't know what to make of that but I told her that was fine but she could not come back without my asking her too. 

She's staying at a friends house...which is reassuring as I was worried about her staying in the hotels I was staying in. And she could use a friend to talk to.

******************************

I only talked with my oldest son (11) about what happened. Very high-level "Mom and Dad had a disagreement and we are upset at one another. We're going to stay apart for a while, but if you want to see or talk to either of us, you can call us anytime, anywhere. We both will be there for you".

I got a typical child response "Do I have to change what bus I ride?" ... "No"..."How will the bills get paid?"..."Dad will make sure all the bills are paid". 

Then he got on his game system. I'm sure its rattling away in the back of his head, but he seems to be taking it well. I've brought it up twice but he just sits silent.

I'm not even trying to explain to my toddler. Other than to ask him if he wants to talk to Mommy? He already will pull out my cell phone and call her by himself when he wants to talk...so I'm sure he will reach out when he wants to. He's extremely extroverted.
****************************************

I talked with a friend and when asked why I drew the line and decided that this was it, this is what came out:

I need to leave her because I'm hurting her. The words that come out my mouth, tear little bits of her heart out. I can stop this but in order to do that, I have to be honest with her. Her hitting me, her sudden heavy drinking, her sudden need to smoke, her asking about drugs, her anger, her tears all of that, done in the span of 7 days tell me that I am right she can not handle the truth of how I fell and felt.

I might, just might, have been able to get over/work through everything else and change myself. But after Friday, I don't trust her to have a conversation and not escalate things. What happens when we are talking in the kitchen and a knife is on the table? And she asks or insist on a truth? 

It's an impossible scenario. It's an incredibly stupid scenario for one to put themselves into. And I am not stupid. I do not put myself in situations I can't get out of. I do not do things that I already know will end poorly.

We had a good run...13 years. I'll always love her and all other women will live in the shadow of her love. 

But the time has come to move on. She will never want for anything. I owe her that for what I have done to her. My kids will be cared for and well loved.

As for me...I'll be ok after a while. It is my nature. It is who I am. I survive and continue to live.

So this might be the last post for a long time, but I've shared. Hopefully it will help someone out there, it's been a useful way for me to express myself.

Random Thoughts:
We fought on Aug 28, I saw her for the first time 13 years ago to the day.

Her words: "Why do you feel like you are such a bad person?" Her words: "Who told you you were so horrible inside?"
My unsaid answer: "You did"

My internal struggle: If I was to change my core and put my wife first in all things. She would become what I live for, how I see my world. What happens when she thinks I am "trash". Do I see myself as "trash"? This thought disgusts me.

I worry that she will take our separation and find someone worse than me who would take advantage of her needs in a much worse way. And my trying to convince her that he is wrong for her, will come across as "the ex" getting in the way.


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## HappyHer

It seems a shame to give away 13 years without going for some deep counseling, either alone or together. A separation sure, but making it so final so quickly when she doesn't even have an understanding of what is happening?


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## pacmouse

Wow. I just read this entire thread because I could identify with a lot of what you explained with my own H. 

Like you, he has childhood/mother issues and I have often wondered if he could be a sociopath or just really really selfish.

Like he you, he wants to divorce because "you would be better off without me." "you deserve more" "I'm hurting you" etc. I have actually heard much of the same "reasoning" you so eloquently described in your posts.

I just wanted to respond with that I think you and your wife should go to counseling before you call it quits on your marriage. You seem to be a very smart man who's very self-aware. However, after reading and speaking from a wife's point of view, and dealing with my own H, I am thinking I may let my H go. But, I have already done the marriage counseling route.

Best of luck to you.


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## amIcrazy

Pacmouse - We've been to two marriage counselors. They temporary helped but were band aids to the real problem. (In my view). I think that if my wife understood all of this and really and truly accepted it and *was ok with it*. We could move forward. I don't think she is and she is not accepting that she is not ok. She wants to ignore it. (But she is not ignoring it, it just simmers). 

I don't write my words to influence how others think or feel about their H. I would hope they help you ask the right questions of him. And then you can make the best decision for you (and your family). I'm not typical and assuming what you see here can be put on someone else is probably a bad assumption. Maybe...

***************************************
I must write to understand...here are my thoughts

I asks myself: why do you want to leave, what satisfaction will you get out of leaving? My initial gut reaction for the last few days have been punishment and removal. I can show her by leaving that she hurt me in a visceral way when she hit me. It's an ugly, unusual but strong emotion for me. I am not a vengeful person. I shove the emotion to the side when it surfaces. Lock it deep down inside me, deny its existence. But that emotion sits deep in the dark part of my heart and whispers to my other thoughts, clouding them, convincing the wrong thoughts they are right, undermining the right thoughts so they appear weak. I've never fought something like it before.

But as I said, it was my initial reaction. Today, thinking about the whys of leaving, I realized that I'm looking forward to my freedom. What does this mean, I asked myself. It means you don't have to be responsible for your actions. You can do whatever you want without justifying, explaining or rationalizing to anyone. I looked that thought over. It was not difficult to see that it is true. I don't want it to be true, its not a pretty thought.

I searched deeper....

So what do you want to do with your supposed new found freedom that you don't do today? Nothing immediate came to mind. Wait and think, think and wait...

Do you want to be with other women? No, not in an emotional way, of course I see plenty of women I would have sex with. I am a man with a man's carnal desires. But it's superficial and not actionable. Do I want to have a meaningful relationship with them? That I don't desire in the smallest sense. 

Do you want to leave your kids to her and not "deal" with them? Hummmm, not that way, I love them, I love spending time with them. I like helping them be better people. I look forward to helping them grow into adults. Do I want to deal with the day to day? The feeding, the bathing, the taking to school, the haircuts, the keeping a clean house? No, I don't want to deal with that. I don't like it, I don't do it well and it aggravates the sh*t out of me. 

I don't want the responsibility. That's what it boils down too. I want to be a friend to them. I want to be their confidant, but I don't want to care for them. Is that wrong? I don't know. By my rules, I say what is wrong and what is right and I don't think this feeling is wrong. I think that those things fall into the responsibilities of my wife. But in this day and age, most women would think that the man should share this responsibility. My wife is definitely in that group. She is a career woman and probably doesn't enjoy the day to day minutia any more than me.

So, if she doesn't or won't do it, it is MY responsibility to make sure it gets done. And I can and do make sure that this gets done. But in the process I feel chained. Thus the "need" to be free.

A Detour: If she is not doing the things that I want/expect from a wife, do I want to leave her to find someone who does? Maybe, but I can't imagine finding another woman that wants to take care of my kids, simply because I don't "want" to. It's a dream, a fantasy. It's not realistic and it will be unfair to any woman who takes the job.

And so I stare part of my guilt in the face. I hold my wife accountable for not doing a job that no other woman in the world would take on for herself. Who really wants to do all the day to day things for a child with no good reason to do it? Love? Can love make you "want" to pick up that pair of dirty socks? wipe the dirty butt? Clean the table?

But, but, but ... shouldn't she want to do these things for her kids. Not for me, but for them. Sure, but she can't feel like that all the time! 

She sees value in the finances she brings in because that puts us in a nicer house, allows us to save for college, allows us to set them up for financial success down the road. No Wait, she sees MORE value in doing this. I'm supposed to pickup the slack in regard to the day to day so that this financial success can be realized. I can't find anything wrong with that.

And so I feel like I've come full circle with no real resolution.

But its good to put it on paper.

**********************************

I'm not calling it quits, contrary to how it reads, I know I do need space from her to think. When she is around, the pull of my heart keeps me from thinking clearly. It shades every action as wrong. Every action...I can't tell what is right and wrong when I am near her. I can't tell how I feel about things. And how I feel defines right and wrong. Her raw hurt and desperate need for me makes me drop all my cares and do what she wants. I'm fighting it, but I'm already losing. And its only been 90 hours.


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## HappyHer

The first thing I would suggest is to stop taking her inventory. As much as you'd like to think you "know" her, the very fact that you think that has you looking at her through filters of prejudice - not knowing her at all. Perhaps she is working on not just being okay, but looking into every avenue of improvement of the situation for both of you - just in ways you don't notice? 

Second - all of your thoughts are on running away. Spend time with the kids when it's easy, but not rolling up your sleeves to do those things that aggravate the *** out of you. Do you really believe raising children was going to be free of messy things and things you would prefer to not have to deal with? True parenting is about ALL of that, not just spending time. But I don't think it's because you are lazy, or even that entirely selfish. I think you are afraid. I think you want to feel as if you have control over all of your interactions with them, and that if they see you struggling with those things that aggravate you, that they will come to realize that you are not truly lovable. But it's the very fact that you would give of yourself in those ways that make you lovable, even if they don't live up to your own expectations or if you suffer a bit of aggravation. Trust me, when those children are older you WILL yearn for that sort of aggravation, even if for just one more day.

So, the questions boil down to, do you want to be a slave to your fears - sure "foot loose and fancy free" slave that does what you want, answers to no one and remains untouchable - what a sad thing for your children to have a father that would prefer that isolating sort of existence and is that really what you want to lead your children by example to do with their own lives?

Or, do you want to be a slave to your family? Care for them when it's good, bad, and downright ugly. Even if you risk coming up looking less than perfect, but only human, and prone to mistakes as the rest of us.

Either way, you are not free. So, what do you really want - past the fears as if they weren't an issue.


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## amIcrazy

>> As much as you'd like to think you "know" her, the very fact that you think that has you looking at her through filters of prejudice

You have a point. I have a habit of making assumptions about people/personalities and making decisions based on this. Unfortunately many of my assumptions play out true, so I forget that this is what they are... assumptions. They should be questioned. I will need time to think on this.

>> I think you are afraid.
>> they will come to realize that you are not truly lovable

They are my children, they will always love me. I will always love them. However, they may not LIKE me. But that I can live with and come to grips with. I say this because my childhood family has some pretty messed up moments amongst us, but we all love one another. We like or dislike one another for a time. We always love each other. I'm not afraid of my kids not loving me. 

Am I afraid they might not like me. I can't fathom that being the case, even if I were to treat them like second class citizens. Kids don't see the world that way. When they grow up they might not like the way dad treated them when they were younger, but time and good will heals all wounds.

>> what a sad thing for your children to have a father that would prefer that isolating sort of existence 

I know a guy who lives in isolation by choice. I admire him a lot, and understand a lot about him. He is my father. I wouldn't trade him for any other one in the world. I have few good memories of him as a child, but they sure beat the hell out of the fewer bad memories. But yeah, sometimes his life makes me sad but the sadness is not around his isolation, but his lack of taking care of his self. (A whole other story)

I'm not looking for isolation, I want to be around, but I want to be free to go. Say it with me, I want to have my cake and eat it too. HA.

>> So, what do you really want - past the fears as if they weren't an issue. 

Let me think on that a little longer...that one should not be answered swiftly.

Thanks for the thoughts, Happy.


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## amIcrazy

Reading through that last post. It was not written with much thought. It's a different me.

I'd delete it, but I think those words might be as important to this thing as the ones written with focused effort.

I will try to come back and give an honest answer.


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## GoDucks

Thanks for the updates. I'm still reading and keeping up. Your thoughts (and even some of your musings) continue to remind me of a truth my H isn't able to voice. Especially the stuff about his ideal way to treat the kids... Your clarity is jaw dropping for me. Spot on. So, thanks and boo. ;-) I have a bit of a love-hate feeling for this whole string, really.

On our end, we are making massive progress... But, it is toward separation. We are doing all of this through a ton of therapy, and today he walked out to move out. I'm not sure if this is the end, or if it is just a threat (he came back to sleep). He is a man of games, and I am a woman that doesn't understand his games... So, who knows. He claims he will walk out and never see me or the children again "except for the check in the mail"... Who knows. He's not the most dedicated dad, but he is involved, and it shocks me to imagine him walking away. However, he has mentioned his ability to transfer to Thailand, so the means are there... Who knows... When the children are a tool of threats to be 'employed' for power, then it's got to end. I cannot stay in a marriage to avoid a threat. I am simply not wired that way. I am no martyr. 

My best to you as you continue through this challenge. If you keep journalling, I'll keep reading. And likely responding.


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## HappyHer

I'll wait amicrazy. Of course your children will always love you, but you know I'm going deeper than that, perhaps to admiration, respect, etc... 

When you have your cake and eat it too it's never as delicious because it's not completely real that way. But to earn your cake and eat it too - there is nothing sweeter.

GoDucks, I'm happy you are in therapy, and good for you for not being a martyr. The threats aren't healthy for anyone.


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## amIcrazy

I feel no love in me for her...today. When I think of her I feel nothing. I ask if I love her and get no response from inside me. I take solace in the fact that the answer was not an immediate no. I want to simply take her back because I can't answer that question. Because I don't care and I know she is in pain. And its such a good thing that we had and an easy thing to maintain for the most part. My sons are starting to let me know they want mom to be around. "I want everyone in the house". *sigh* I feel a fool to break us all apart.

(I re-read this and it sounds like the words of a whiner, grrrr)

******************************************

To honestly answer some questions. I'm not concerned that my sons may not love me. I don't beleive that is possible. Is it possible for them to think less of me. Not respect me, not admire me, not want to acknowledge me...maybe...but that doesn't bother me. This goes back to the fact that I really don't care what others think of me. Even those I treasure. If I really care for you, I'll go out my way to help you understand why I made choices you don't agree with. But if they continue to think that way, that is that person's choice. Even if they are my sons. 

To be honest, if I could give a trait to my son's by shear will power, this would be the trait I give them. Hopefully it's not the root of all my other problems. But this thinking has got me to a successful place in life.


>> What do you really want - past the fears as if they weren't an issue.

I want all the good parts and none of the rest. I want the sex, I want the laughs, I want the sharing, I want the smiles. I want to be removed from the rest.

This is impossible and unrealistic. You have to give to your life in order for it to give back. I know this, but don't want to realize it. All the things that need doing that I don't want to do. Lead up to the moments that I enjoy.

I'm sure every single person in life has a part of thier life where this is true. 

That is the truth of what I want. Selfish...that's what comes to my mind.

>> Do you really believe raising children was going to be free of messy things and things you would prefer to not have to deal with?
No, even if I had a 100% stay at home mom. There are still times I would be called in to help. I guess it just wears on me.

**********************************************

I'm a bit numb tonight. Not from drinking or anything...I just have been numb all day. I guess its part of the "natural" progression.

I'm debating going to see a counselor by myself...to try and understand myself better. I'm considering sharing this thread with him, but I'm not sure. I wonder how much he would use to push me to places I'm not ready to go. I guess that is a natural fear though. I can say that the feeling of anonymity helps a whole lot when talking through this stuff.

*********************************************

GoDucks - I don't want to separate from my wife. I told her last night, we are separated by space at the moment. I still feel like we are one. I just need/needed space to think clearly.

Your husband sounds like he is at a different place then me in this process. I hate the fact that my kids even see me and my wife disagree, much less argue, even less fight (verbally). 

My son asked me, when is Mom coming back? and I almost caved and said right now. I'm not dealing with their need for their mother well.

Sorry, I'm not as insightful tonight...


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## amIcrazy

I was typing an email to the wife and realized something...

When I hurt her, by lieing or being less than she wants me to be. I hurt myself. It's like when she feels bad about actions that I do, I feel bad. I put a black mark on my soul every time I fail her. And the black mark pains me.

It's contrary to everything I said here. But hear me out.

I keep saying that I'm leaving cause I'm hurting her. But maybe I'm leaving because I'm running from the pain I am causing myself. I'm leaving cause it's the only thing I can think to do.

It's just like my character to take what most would say is the most *self-less* act, "leaving cause I am bad for her", to hide the true *selfish * act "I'm leaving cause I can't deal with my own pain".

This is a very odd train of thought for me.


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## GoDucks

I will reply a bit, but I'm not with you on this latest couple of posts... Throughout this, the relation point for me is your general lack of empathy for others - even those you treasure. Even your desire to will your sons to have this same ability. It makes sense - it's easier to view the world as a million little manipulations. At least that is how it is for my H. It gives him strength through power, without vulnerability.

If you are similar, it's difficult to describe what you are missing. The only flaw you have is the wake that you leave. This is why it's such a grim situation for a counselor. However, it appears that your wife is trying to pave a path of acceptance for you, should you be willing to show who you really are inside.


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## toppi

I have been reading your posts and think that your last posts are getting nearer to the truth as you put it.It seems that you are mixing up your own evaluation of yourself as a good or bad person and your feelings for your wife and family.Maybe your religious upbringing has bred a certain detatchment and empathy as a defence mechanism. I too was brought up in a very religious household it can be the best training for dishonesty and manipulation Eventually though it does catch up with you.is your lack of empathy really a cover for a deep fear of being hurt yourself and not being accepted for who you really are. You also say that you want your wife to know how much she hurt you in a visceral way. by leaving you are punishing her.Why are you punishing her she only reacted to what sounds like your infuriating behaviour, It seems like you would rather have the the label of being a sociopath rather than just admit that you are just quite a selfish scared guy like 90 per cent of the population. You have developed certain strategies to get by and not be hassled by things you don't want to do. you say your wife pulls her weight and contributes to your household and is a good mother to your children. I am left wondering what are these terrible truths you are keeping from her?, if she knew these truths are you scared that she will think less of you. Do you know everything about her maybe she wants to tell you things but can't until you reveal to her You also say the children will be loved and you will care for her financially |if you separate the children will definately suffer and so will your wife and so there is not much benefit to be had you leaving because you said you are leaving because she would be better off without you.It has also taken you aalong time to get round to the things that you are not happy with like the daily drudge stuff and your wifes role as a career woman , Is this the case or has all this handwringing just been an exercise from the start, to alieve your guilt because you want to leave and you want your freedom. your wife and children would surely be better off with you all at home together. You must have been hurt and felt a sense of abandonment by your father not being around when you were growing up. You do not need to reenact this behaviour It takes a lot of strength to break the pattern. You are not going to feel great love and empathy every day nobody does. thats what marriage is for it sets the guidelines stick together through tough times. best wishes


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## trimble

Wow, so I know this is old but I was randomly cruising the web trying to find some answers to random questions when I stumbled across this post. After careful reading I have deduced that you are not a sociopath in the least. You are guarded,scared and you are afraid. A sociopath would never admit the harm they have caused to another, you know this. Your full of crap. Everything you say and do is some massive front. Both you and your wife have low self efficacy. You grew up in an incredibly sterile environment. You were abused physically and were treated coldly by your father. That's how I know you feel empathy because how else could you know the damage of what your actions are inflicting on your wife if you couldn't relate to it. You also believe in a higher power which sociopaths think they are a higher power. Your just angry, my brother. Your angry, scared and you feel weak. I don't think you realize how self destructive you are. You are sitting up on the internet complaining about your marriage and all this bs when you know exactly what it takes to fix it. Your just immature,juvenile and selfish. The reason you are scared to leave your wife is because ding ding "You love her"!!!!Stop being pathetic, grow up and get over the past. Your repeating the same mistakes through pointless justifications in order to avoid responsibility. If you truly didn't want to change you wouldn't have been putting all your drama out here on the internet in the first place, you just don't know where to start. Idk if you will ever read this I'm sure you will minimize, make up some bs excuse, and talk about "how I could never understand" truth is I know you better than you know yourself. I was you times 10 and I am recovered. It's called taking responsibility being a leader,man and doing what you know is right. To many marriages fail nowadays because both parties are so self centered and to worried about preserving this false idea of perfection. It's a relationship, bond tie. Get over yourself and build. Don't be like your father homie, be better. Trust. 
Peace
Trimble


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