# Is it me?



## Meatball

We started as equal partners. Then, in the last month of our first pregnancy, I started assuming more responsibility, to make her pregnancy more bearable. We know NOW that she had postpartum depression. She almost never fed, bathed, changed, or played with our babies. 

For 17 years now, I've been her "*****". I have 99% responsibility for everything in our marriage. She gives 110% of herself to her job, then has nothing left to give at home. Every 2-3 years, I've done a "victim puke" and she starts giving more. But, the slow slide back to "normal" ALWAYS happens. 

I DO NOT feel loved, desired, respected, or appreciated. I believe she gives the absolute minimum that will make me stay. I feel alone. I feel like I'm the only adult in this house.

I don't know what I expect from the forum, but I'm just wondering out loud; is it me? Am I missing or misunderstanding something? Does she really love me even? Or is she just using me?

I DON'T want to get divorced.....but I REFUSE to be unhappy for another 17 years.


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## Rob_1

Well if you don't want to be divorce your options are; 1. shut up and put up.
if you refuse to be unhappy any longer then see option one, since you don't want to be divorce.

in all seriousness, ONLY YOU, and you only can make yourself happy. Nobody else will. She won't change. She's at where she wants to be because she knows you won't do a thing, no matters the nagging. So, choose option one or two for no divorce. Or decide if you have had enough and trow in the towel. At the end is all YOUR decision.


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## jlg07

well, instead of D or just accepting it, how about changing YOU. You can't change her.
SO, STOP doing everything for her. STOP allowing her to get away with giving all to her job and not to you.
Start doing your own thing -- hobby, exercise, etc.. STOP doing HER laundry, making HER dinner/lunch/etc. (just examples -- I don't know what you do since you didn't mention specifics). Do things for you and your kids, that's it.
Don't complain, just start ignoring her like she does to you. STOP being her *****. Be YOU instead. 
If she starts to complain, just tell her "I'm sorry you feel that way" and walk away.

BTW, very sorry you are going through this. Your frustration comes through LOUD and clear...


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## GC1234

Meatball said:


> We started as equal partners. Then, in the last month of our first pregnancy, I started assuming more responsibility, to make her pregnancy more bearable. We know NOW that she had postpartum depression. She almost never fed, bathed, changed, or played with our babies.
> 
> For 17 years now, I've been her "***". I have 99% responsibility for everything in our marriage. She gives 110% of herself to her job, then has nothing left to give at home. Every 2-3 years, I've done a "victim puke" and she starts giving more. But, the slow slide back to "normal" ALWAYS happens.
> 
> I DO NOT feel loved, desired, respected, or appreciated. I believe she gives the absolute minimum that will make me stay. I feel alone. I feel like I'm the only adult in this house.
> 
> I don't know what I expect from the forum, but I'm just wondering out loud; is it me? Am I missing or misunderstanding something? Does she really love me even? Or is she just using me?
> 
> I DON'T want to get divorced.....but I REFUSE to be unhappy for another 17 years.


Maybe getting a cleaning lady would help? That's what I had to do.


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## DownByTheRiver

Sounds like having kids and a family wasn't the right thing for her. Are the kids about grown now? When will they be out of the house, do you think? At least at that time, you can be who you feel like being without anyone suffering and then you can both decide if it's enough or not.


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## Diana7

How about you sit down and go through all the jobs and things that need doing, and take half each. Write them all down and then you are each responsible for those things. Dont do her jobs ever.


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## Married but Happy

Yes, it's you. You are a doormat and enabler. Perhaps you can fix this, but expect a long hard road to get her to share the load and treat you anywhere near an equal.


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## anchorwatch

Hello, @Meatball



Meatball said:


> For 17 years now, I've been her "***". I have 99% responsibility for everything in our marriage.
> 
> I DO NOT feel loved, desired, respected, or appreciated. I believe she gives the absolute minimum that will make me stay. I feel alone. I feel like I'm the only adult in this house.


It seems you've done all you can to convince her you don't need to be loved, respected, or appreciated. 17 years you say? That's a long time.

You're a "Nice Guy", and you'll do anything to make things work and get nothing in return for it, except hope that you will someday. 

Here are a few hints... No man got love or respect by taking on his own and everyone else's responsibilities. Nothing will change until you do! You are responsible for your own happiness! Any changes you make should be for you, not her!

Here read this today "No More Mr Nice Guy" It's a quick read.

There's more to see in the men's section sticky post.

Best


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## farsidejunky

It happens because she knows you are okay with it.

You must be...having put up with it for 17 years.

If you want things to change, it has to start with you.

Read the book linked above. It is a crucial starting point. @anchorwatch knows his stuff. 

Accept that you are sick and tired of being sick and tired, and become resolute that you would rather see your marriage end rather than continue the way it has.

In all of the responsibilities you carry, I want to make a list of the things that, if she were to pass away tomorrow, you would no longer do. Lay that out on this thread for me. 

Keep posting. I was in a similar boat when I came here in 2014. It took about 18 months, but I have completely reset the power dynamic in my relationship because I was willing to risk losing the marriage in order to fix it. And you know who is very happy about that reset besides me? My wife.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## aine

farsidejunky said:


> It happens because she knows you are okay with it.
> 
> You must be...having put up with it for 17 years.
> 
> If you want things to change, it has to start with you.
> 
> Read the book linked above. It is a crucial starting point. @anchorwatch knows his stuff.
> 
> Accept that you are sick and tired of being sick and tired, and become resolute that you would rather see your marriage end rather than continue the way it has.
> 
> In all of the responsibilities you carry, I want to make a list of the things that, if she were to pass away tomorrow, you would no longer do. Lay that out on this thread for me.
> 
> Keep posting. I was in a similar boat when I came here in 2014. It took about 18 months, but I have completely reset the power dynamic in my relationship because I was willing to risk losing the marriage in order to fix it. And you know who is very happy about that reset besides me? My wife.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


THIS! 👆🏻


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## Meatball

THANK YOU all for the "tough love". That's exactly what I needed.

Rob1 and Jig07, Thank you. I agree, just needed to hear it from someone else.

GC1234, if it was JUST the chores, I'd do that in a heart beat. Thing is, I have 95-99% responsibility FOR EVERYTHING. I thought marriage was going to be an equal partnership. It's more like I've adopted a child.

Downbytheriver, my boys are 14&17. Part of me says, "suck it up" and wait till they're out of the house. Another part of me feels like the worst father in the world because I KNOW that I am TEACHING my boys how to be men, husbands, fathers....but I can't stand the role model I'm setting!

Marriedbuthappy, THANK YOU. I needed that brutal honesty.

Anchorwatch and Farsidejunky, ouch. Ya, I see that now. I read NMMNG, after seeing it mentioned here.. It blew my mind. I also read Married Man's Sexlife Primer and Hold on to your NUTS. I am still trying to grasp and apply all this new found knowledge.

Farsidejunky asked me to list all the things I would no longer do, if she passed away.

i would no longer....
wait for her to go to bed every night when I want to sleep sooner
wait for her to get up when I want to get up sooner
fear working with or having platonic relationships with other women
waste so much money eating out, wasting food, paying for cable, Netflix, HULU, & gym. 
fear or feel guilty working overtime or saving money for the future
skip activities I want to do
put my LIFE on hold
watch TV shows I don't care about or think are stupid


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## jlg07

"
list all the things I would no longer do, if she passed away.

i would no longer....
wait for her to go to bed every night when I want to sleep sooner
wait for her to get up when I want to get up sooner
fear working with or having platonic relationships with other women
waste so much money eating out, wasting food, paying for cable, Netflix, HULU, & gym. 
fear or feel guilty working overtime or saving money for the future
skip activities I want to do
put my LIFE on hold
watch TV shows I don't care about or think are stupid "

SO, don't wait for her to pass away -- start doing this stuff NOW.


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## Rob_1

jlg07 said:


> SO, don't wait for her to pass away -- start doing this stuff NOW.


Of course!! This should be started immediately. Let's just hope and see if OP will do it.


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## farsidejunky

Meatball said:


> THANK YOU all for the "tough love". That's exactly what I needed.
> 
> Rob1 and Jig07, Thank you. I agree, just needed to hear it from someone else.
> 
> GC1234, if it was JUST the chores, I'd do that in a heart beat. Thing is, I have 95-99% responsibility FOR EVERYTHING. I thought marriage was going to be an equal partnership. It's more like I've adopted a child.
> 
> Downbytheriver, my boys are 14&17. Part of me says, "suck it up" and wait till they're out of the house. Another part of me feels like the worst father in the world because I KNOW that I am TEACHING my boys how to be men, husbands, fathers....but I can't stand the role model I'm setting!
> 
> Marriedbuthappy, THANK YOU. I needed that brutal honesty.
> 
> Anchorwatch and Farsidejunky, ouch. Ya, I see that now. I read NMMNG, after seeing it mentioned here.. It blew my mind. I also read Married Man's Sexlife Primer and Hold on to your NUTS. I am still trying to grasp and apply all this new found knowledge.
> 
> Farsidejunky asked me to list all the things I would no longer do, if she passed away.
> 
> i would no longer....
> wait for her to go to bed every night when I want to sleep sooner
> wait for her to get up when I want to get up sooner
> fear working with or having platonic relationships with other women
> waste so much money eating out, wasting food, paying for cable, Netflix, HULU, & gym.
> fear or feel guilty working overtime or saving money for the future
> skip activities I want to do
> put my LIFE on hold
> watch TV shows I don't care about or think are stupid


Perfect.

Memorize that list.

Now...have "the talk" one more time...and it will be the last time. 

After "the talk", the first time she begins to revert to her old ways (which she will), anything on that list that has to do with her stops.

ALL OF IT.

Every...single...thing on that list that is for her...STOPS.

Say nothing about it. Just do it.

When she asks...and she will...shrug your shoulders, and calmly tell her the following:

"Wife, it is clear you want a relationship in which you prioritize yourself, so I am accepting and embracing that philosophy."

If she doesn't care...pack it up; the relationship is likely over.

If she listens, and doesn't lose her ****, state your position once, and only once. Make your words matter. 

If she loses her ****, shrug your shoulders and say, "I'm sorry you feel that way. When you are ready to contribute to our family for longer than a week/month, maybe I will be willing to revisit these things." Then go do something you want to do.

Simply put, the time for your wife to be comfortable in the midst of your discomfort is over. That has to be your entire philosophy. 

In a nutshell, you are going to stop making it easy for her.

ETA: The deeper question in all of this is why you don't love yourself enough to have put a stop to this sometime in the past 17 years. It smells of a lack of self-esteem. Is that the case?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Meatball

farsidejunky said:


> ETA: The deeper question in all of this is why you don't love yourself enough to have put a stop to this sometime in the past 17 years. It smells of a lack of self-esteem. Is that the case?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Oh GOD YES!!!! Are you kidding? 

I AM THE GUY Dr Glover wrote about. I've been using covert contracts and all the backhanded shortsighted ways of the "Nice Guy" since before puberty. I hated myself and believed I was worthless unlovable trash. Then an angel appeared. She made me feel whole, worthy, and LOVED!!! 

I thought the universe finally delivered on it's half of my covert contract. I thought I had done everything right, "passed the test", and earned my reward!

Our first 18 months together were Heaven. Then the baby came and it's been a roller coaster ride ever since. Every 2-3 years we go through the same ups and downs. But this time, I feel like something snapped. I read a bunch of books, TAM, and listened to podcasts that have opened my eyes. I see now what I couldn't before. I have also come to accept myself....even love myself. I'm an awesome dad and an amazing husband. I AM OK. I am as good, worthy, and deserving of happiness as anyone. I'm starting to get my N.U.T.S back, and I now know, feel, BELIEVE that I deserve better. I'm already on the "Bus to Better". I'm improving myself, my marriage, my family, my career, and my life. 

I HOPE my wife comes with me, but I've embraced the fact that she may not. I'm ok with both of us moving on, I'm not ok with the insanity I've been living for 17 years.

So. Short answer. Yes, I had low self esteem, but I'm in recovery now.


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## farsidejunky

I understand, because I was you when I got here in 2014...in a sexless, loveless, passionless marriage. 

There are a few posters who were instrumental in my recovery who are no longer on TAM, but they provided AMAZING insight. For that reason, I would suggest giving the below threads a read. They have insight that will apply to your situation that I will struggle to replicate, specifically from Mem2020, JLD, Turnera, and a few others. 

Start here:









Talk About Marriage







www.talkaboutmarriage.com





Then here:









Talk About Marriage







www.talkaboutmarriage.com





Keep posting. Until you learn and employ the necessary tools, nothing will change.

Also, post your N.U.T.'s here if you don't mind sharing. This will help fellow posters help you when you start to stray outside of your left and right limits. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Meatball

*My N.U.T.S *
(Non-negotiable. Unalterable. Terms.)


I’m a recovering Nice Guy. I silence the boy I was and strive to be the man I WANT to BE.
I do not hold debt. I save and invest for my family’s future.
I DO MANLY STUFF at least once a week. It’s healthy and it makes me more attractive.
I strive to be fit, fashionable, and smell good. I display high value (HDV)
I practice speaking with my “Chest voice”, NOT my “Head voice”.
I get my approval from myself, NOT others. I only care about respect from those whom I respect.
I go to bed and get out of bed when It’s appropriate for ME.
I LIVE my LIFE, here and now, based on MY values. I will not wait to enjoy my life. “Be yourself X 10!”
I develop BOLDNESS by being comfortable with MY intentions.
I am responsible for getting my NEEDS met and I make it a priority
I do NOT use Covert Contracts.
I express MY NEEDS through open, clear, and direct COMMUNICATION. 
I err on the side of ASSERTIVENESS.
I will NOT settle for less. It just lowers the bar.
I develop and maintain a balanced mix of ALPHA & BETA traits, including…

Acting not Reacting, to problems, conflict, "Betaization", and Fitness Tests.
Touching her, invading her space, never rejecting her advances, & being sexually proficient.
Building wealth and managing our nest ie, cooking, cleaning, repairing, & parenting..
Being faithful & trustworthy, having integrity, caring for others, and showing appreciation.

I Recognize & Reward the behaviors I want in other people and Ignore the ones I don't.
I appreciate and praise others.
I am the only person who controls me, and I am the only person who I can really control.
I allow others to help me.
I do Dude Day, with my sons, at least once a month.
I take Mancation every year for my birthday.
My “Successful Marriage” means: Maximizing MY happiness with the woman I WANT to be with.
I listen to my wife, then make MY decision.
If she changes my perspective, then I may change my mind, but I never let her change my mind.
I run the sex and romance departments of my marriage. (Her sex drive is “Responsive”). 
It is the man’s responsibility to make the moves. (Her responsibility is stop/go signals).
I (Men) need sex to feel intimacy. (She needs to feel intimacy to have sex.) 
I close the backdoors to infidelity.
It’s NOT Quality Time if one of us would rather be doing something else. 
Tolerating leads to Resenting.
I have female friends and coworkers. I refuse to be afraid that this might anger my wife.
I Tit for Tat. IF I’m “always nice”, there's no incentive for others to be “nice” back. Retaliate/Forgive/TIE.
I establish clear expectations for Baseline Behavior and use the Second Date Rule to set boundaries for unacceptable behavior including...
Lying, stealing, cheating, loafing, disobeying imperatives, interruptions of our intimate time, disrespectful words or behaviors, going over budget, or wasting time, money, or opportunity


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## farsidejunky

Okay. There are some in here I really like. 7 and 9, for example, are very important. 

I would encourage you to whittle it down to under 10. That is a lot to keep up with. Many of them have overlap and they could be combined, condensed, then streamlined. 

That said, it is your list, not mine. If you can make it work, then beautiful. 

What is your plan from here?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Meatball

We didn't talk for 2 days. But today we emailed and texted. I told her how I felt. I basically victim puked and told her everything that was wrong. To my surprise, she said "I hear you and I understand you". She apologized and expressed her intense desire to work things out, be a better wife, and live happily ever after. I feel WONDERFUL, EXCITED, HAPPY, and OPTIMISTIC!!!!!

I am also creating a D Day Diary. I'm recreating, as best I can, a timeline of our relationship that documents our recurring issues. It sounds, and feels, creepy, but it SO powerfully illuminates the fact that we keep going through the SAME issues. It's like Groundhog Day.

I've decided to...
1) get my affairs in order.
2) improve myself and my man-ness.
3) keep reading and communicating with more knowledgeable people.
4) go to counseling with and maybe without my wife.
5) keep working my MAP
6) keep working WITH my wife to improve our marriage.
6) give it till the end of January, at which time, I will go camping alone for my birthday, and reassess.
7) I have determined that this will be the last time I go through this cycle, but I want/NEED to ensure I've done all I can.
8) make my NUTS more manageable!!!

Thank you.


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## matador1958

Meatball said:


> We started as equal partners. Then, in the last month of our first pregnancy, I started assuming more responsibility, to make her pregnancy more bearable. We know NOW that she had postpartum depression. She almost never fed, bathed, changed, or played with our babies.
> 
> For 17 years now, I've been her "***". I have 99% responsibility for everything in our marriage. She gives 110% of herself to her job, then has nothing left to give at home. Every 2-3 years, I've done a "victim puke" and she starts giving more. But, the slow slide back to "normal" ALWAYS happens.
> 
> I DO NOT feel loved, desired, respected, or appreciated. I believe she gives the absolute minimum that will make me stay. I feel alone. I feel like I'm the only adult in this house.
> 
> I don't know what I expect from the forum, but I'm just wondering out loud; is it me? Am I missing or misunderstanding something? Does she really love me even? Or is she just using me?
> 
> I DON'T want to get divorced.....but I REFUSE to be unhappy for another 17 years.


I'm in the same boats a similar one anyway, so there's not much I can say to help, other than you're not alone. Ultimately I do believe by doing what we think is right we effectively "train" the other partner to be the way they are. I find it hard to find whatever it takes to just break up, partly because I know she will reap everything I have sown, in terms of money and so on, while I will reap what she has sown, ie depression. I need to find the strength to deal with this, and I hope you do too.


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## farsidejunky

matador1958 said:


> I'm in the same boats a similar one anyway, so there's not much I can say to help, other than you're not alone. Ultimately I do believe by doing what we think is right we effectively "train" the other partner to be the way they are. I find it hard to find whatever it takes to just break up, partly because I know she will reap everything I have sown, in terms of money and so on, while I will reap what she has sown, ie depression. I need to find the strength to deal with this, and I hope you do too.


A concise summary of your post, @matador1958 :









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## farsidejunky

Checking in on you, @Meatball.

How are you holding up?

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## Meatball

We had an extremely rough week. But in the time since I first posted here, things have been better than ever.

I owe my life to you and the others who answered my question, "Is it me?", with basically one word, "Yep".

I'm embarrassed by my lack of manhood and the little boy I've been. Only now, with a couple good books and a swift kick from this forum, do I finally see MY part in creating my own unhappiness. 90 something percent of "our problems" never would have even existed if I had behaved like a man and communicated with my wife!

I rewrote my N.U.T.S. I got them down to 12. I've created a "daily reading" for myself that includes my N.U.T.S, notes from the books, and your quote about GIVING away our power and whining that someone else STOLE it.

I KNOW that I've found the answers. Now, I just need to hammer them into my own head until they become instinctive. 

We've got an appointment with a respected therapist we know, but we've already been TALKING more than we have since we were first dating. I mean hard, honest, ripping off the bandaids, painful communication. To my great surprise, humility, and delight, her only response was, "Let's do this. Tell me what to do. I WANT happily ever after, how do we get there from here?" 

God knows, I have work to do and improvements to make. Specifically, I need to work on MY communication. My wife isn't a mind reader. Honestly, she's done/given me EVERYTHING I ever asked for, so all the things I didn't get over the years (and threw little boy temper tantrums about) would have been different/better had I just TOLD her what I wanted. And I need, I WANT, to improve MY fitness, my wardrobe, and my grooming standards. 

PS, I told her about the forum and she read the whole thread up to this point. NOT because I needed approval or permission, but because I am the new me. The MAN me who is open, honest, and transparent with everyone he meets, but especially with his wife.

THANK YOU.


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## farsidejunky

All of that sounds pretty positive. I do like her response. It's entirely possible that her checking out is her response to nice guy tendencies.

That said, I want to draw your attention to one thing that is standing out to me in what you wrote.

I find it highly unlikely that 90% of the problems in your marriage were due to you. This is the nice guy trap in us assuming most or all of the failings were ours, and are consequently ours to fix.

Own what's yours. 

Give her the space to own what's hers.

Implement your boundaries.

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## Rob_1

farsidejunky said:


> I find it highly unlikely that 90% of the problems in your marriage were due to you. This is the nice guy trap in us assuming most or all of the failings were ours, and our consequently ours to fix.


OP: This. Get the above reference in your head. It can't be 90% your problem. You are demonstrating your "weakness" with this.


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## Dadto2

Meatball said:


> We started as equal partners. Then, in the last month of our first pregnancy, I started assuming more responsibility, to make her pregnancy more bearable. We know NOW that she had postpartum depression. She almost never fed, bathed, changed, or played with our babies.
> 
> For 17 years now, I've been her "***". I have 99% responsibility for everything in our marriage. She gives 110% of herself to her job, then has nothing left to give at home. Every 2-3 years, I've done a "victim puke" and she starts giving more. But, the slow slide back to "normal" ALWAYS happens.
> 
> I DO NOT feel loved, desired, respected, or appreciated. I believe she gives the absolute minimum that will make me stay. I feel alone. I feel like I'm the only adult in this house.
> 
> I don't know what I expect from the forum, but I'm just wondering out loud; is it me? Am I missing or misunderstanding something? Does she really love me even? Or is she just using me?
> 
> I DON'T want to get divorced.....but I REFUSE to be unhappy for another 17 years.


Sounds like she's married to her job, not you. Does she make a lot more money than you, work longer hours, etc? I could see if she was the bread winner and relied on you for pretty much everything at home. Doesn't sound like that's the case though. 

It's past time for a serious talk with her. Tell her exactly what you told us...you don't feel loved, desired, respected or appreciated. And that you are done unless she makes changes. Nobody wants to get divorced, but nobody wants to be miserable for their entire life either. 

Edit - just saw your updated post a few up. Sounds like you took the right step and stood up for yourself. Just be skeptical about her comments...sounds like you've heard it all before and it never lasts. It may take you saying the "D" word to really wake her up.


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## anchorwatch

Having both parties working towards the same goal is a blessing. It's a key to putting aside built-up resentments so healing and progress can happen. However, it does not absolve either of you from becoming complacent or keeping their side of the street clean.

One step at a time. Even if there are missteps... and there will be. Always forward. You will find that as you address one or two problems, others will start to fall in place. Don't get overwhelmed and try to fix everything at the same time. This is not some recent hobby. This is a life change and can be a wonderful adventure for you and your family in turn.

Best


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## sokillme

Meatball said:


> I DON'T want to get divorced.....but I REFUSE to be unhappy for another 17 years.


Um yeah these two don't go together. Let me help you out. 


I DON'T want to get divorced == unhappy until one of you dies.
I REFUSE to be unhappy for another 17 years = Divorce.

Those are your choices there is no door number 3.


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## Divinely Favored

Meatball said:


> We had an extremely rough week. But in the time since I first posted here, things have been better than ever.
> 
> I owe my life to you and the others who answered my question, "Is it me?", with basically one word, "Yep".
> 
> I'm embarrassed by my lack of manhood and the little boy I've been. Only now, with a couple good books and a swift kick from this forum, do I finally see MY part in creating my own unhappiness. 90 something percent of "our problems" never would have even existed if I had behaved like a man and communicated with my wife!
> 
> I rewrote my N.U.T.S. I got them down to 12. I've created a "daily reading" for myself that includes my N.U.T.S, notes from the books, and your quote about GIVING away our power and whining that someone else STOLE it.
> 
> I KNOW that I've found the answers. Now, I just need to hammer them into my own head until they become instinctive.
> 
> We've got an appointment with a respected therapist we know, but we've already been TALKING more than we have since we were first dating. I mean hard, honest, ripping off the bandaids, painful communication. To my great surprise, humility, and delight, her only response was, "Let's do this. Tell me what to do. I WANT happily ever after, how do we get there from here?"
> 
> God knows, I have work to do and improvements to make. Specifically, I need to work on MY communication. My wife isn't a mind reader. Honestly, she's done/given me EVERYTHING I ever asked for, so all the things I didn't get over the years (and threw little boy temper tantrums about) would have been different/better had I just TOLD her what I wanted. And I need, I WANT, to improve MY fitness, my wardrobe, and my grooming standards.
> 
> PS, I told her about the forum and she read the whole thread up to this point. NOT because I needed approval or permission, but because I am the new me. The MAN me who is open, honest, and transparent with everyone he meets, but especially with his wife.
> 
> THANK YOU.


I just posted this in another thread but if fits with this situation also.


I learned passasivity from seeing my dads screwed up relationship with my mom. My marriage was getting more and more stressfull. Wife was being critical and argumentative. Felt like i could do nothing right, sex became less. I was trying to fix it and read 5LL, NMMNG and MMSLP. saw a lot of ugly truth in my situation.

I had held much resentment against my wife for how she had been treating me and how i felt slighted. I had a melt dpwn moment and told her i did not want to be my dad. Things were bothering me and i could not internalize them any longer. I let out years worth of anger and resentment on my wife. I felt a release but she was stunned i had all these issues with her and she had no idea.

Her interaction with me was her pushing me to step up and be the man of the house. The Leader of the Family. She was pushing me to stand up to her.

She once said "Women are emotional, when i am upset and all over the place emotionally, you do not need to change to match me. You need to stay the same. Like a light house in the storm so i can get my bearings from you. If you adjust to me then we will both be lost"

I became the Man of the House, there was pushback and **** tests but she now feels safe being submissive and our marriage and intimacy are at a place i never dreamed possible.


----------



## Meatball

@Divinely Favored, Anchorwatch, FarsideJunky....(others welcomed to reply too).

Does it get easier or do you find yourself having to spend the rest of your life on alert? If I have to completely change who I am and spend the rest of my life constantly insuring that I never "lose character" or step out of that role because my wife will then take advantage of me, I don't even WANT that relationship. It all sounds very adversarial. She's supposed to be my partner not my opponent. I can't help but wonder if trading her for a Fleshlight wouldn't make my life easier, better, more fulfilling, and every bit as sensual.

The whole "lighthouse in a storm" things disturbs me. I'm supposed to be HER lighthouse and she gets to be MY raging weather? I don't get a lighthouse? Why? Because I'm a guy? Screw that, if we are NOT lighthouses for EACH OTHER, then why do I need her? 

The more time goes by, the angrier I get. It seems very common for grown adult women to expect a man to provide, do, and be everything for her in exchange for one commodity and they act like it's in short supply.


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## Meatball

I'm at an awkward point. I said I would give her time to "turn the ship", and I think she's "trying" to step up, but when I think of HOW MUCH and HOW LONG I've been investing in this relationship, her efforts seem trivial, and I find myself feeling, "Nevermind. Keep it. I don't want your token efforts or one time gifts." I reallllllly don't want a relationship (this one or the next) to be this way.


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## bobert

Meatball said:


> Does it get easier or do you find yourself having to spend the rest of your life on alert? If I have to completely change who I am and spend the rest of my life constantly insuring that I never "lose character" or step out of that role because my wife will then take advantage of me


I don't have the same issues as you do (I'm more of a recovering asshole with KISA tendencies) but I think this gets easier in time. The more you practice being the person you want to be, the more you become that person. The goal isn't to fake anything, it's to really embrace the changes. You do have to watch yourself so that you don't fall into your nice guy tendencies, but the same goes for other people with any other number of issues. I have to watch myself so that I don't revert to asshole-mode, but it does get easier. Honestly, it probably won't for close to a year so you have to stick with it. 



> I can't help but wonder if trading her for a Fleshlight wouldn't make my life easier, better, more fulfilling, and every bit as sensual.


It might make your life easier in some ways, but it certainly shouldn't make your life any better or sex life any better. I think you would probably end up feeling worse about yourself. 



> The whole "lighthouse in a storm" things disturbs me. I'm supposed to be HER lighthouse and she gets to be MY raging weather? I don't get a lighthouse? Why? Because I'm a guy? Screw that, if we are NOT lighthouses for EACH OTHER, then why do I need her?


You should be equals here. It doesn't change just because one of you has a penis. This is something that your wife needs to work on, and you also need to be able to accept from her. If you are holding onto too much resentment, she may be ready to be that for you and you may be unable to see or accept it. 



> I'm at an awkward point. I said I would give her time to "turn the ship", and I think she's "trying" to step up, but when I think of HOW MUCH and HOW LONG I've been investing in this relationship, her efforts seem trivial, and I find myself feeling, "Nevermind. Keep it. I don't want your token efforts or one time gifts." I reallllllly don't want a relationship (this one or the next) to be this way.


Are you two talking with therapists? I know it's hard to see why you should give them any time to prove themselves. You said earlier in the thread that your wife has done/given you everything you ever asked for, and that your complete lack of communication caused a lot of the problems. It could really pay off to give her time to make the necessary changes, changes that she didn't even know needed to be made so it will take time. 

When you start having those negative thoughts, stop yourself and think of a positive change she has been making instead. It's hard to do at first but it does get easier. If you have trouble thinking of positive things during the moment, you could write down a list on your phone or on paper and look at that list when you need to. Sometimes you just need to swap the negative thoughts for positive ones. 

I think you would benefit from talking with an IC about the resentment. That may help you a lot, which in turn may give you more patience to stick around a bit longer.


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## anchorwatch

It does get easier after it gets hard. You've been sailing off course for 17+ years. You're not just going to make a magical correction and find your destination. You both will fall into old habits and comfortable retreats as the path will frustrate you. You, the initiator will want it to move faster along as your partner will be more than cautious as you rock the boat.

That's why it is advised that you continue to work on your growth and not focus on how she reacts to you or what you are doing. You made your decision to follow this path. If she wishes to join you or not, so be it.

Be the best man, father, son, brother, friend, provider, husband. By being the best you can be all-around, your gains will be the gains of those around you. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Nothing worth having comes easy. You already know it's worth it.

Best


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## lifeistooshort

So what stands out to me that I've not seen addressed is the covert contracts thing and the fact that you had to email her to have a discussion.

Look, covert contracts are coward jerk moves. I'll admit that I could be projecting here because my ex was fabulous at these and was only willing to discuss things via email. Also a self proclaimed nice guy, he excelled in passive aggressive douchebag moves.

He set up covert contracts all the time, and he was so terrified of conflict that he never communicated things that bothered him, chose the path of least resistance for himself, then resented me for it. All the while I never got the courtesy of knowing what bothered him but boy was he mad at me for. it. I was regularly failing tests I had no idea I was taking.

You've got to communicate with your wife face to face. At least give her the opportunity to address your grievances, preferably before things boil over. Dealing with someone who sets up these contracts and doesn't communicate is exhausting, which could at least partially explain her lack of motivation.

Just another angle to consider.


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## farsidejunky

Meatball said:


> @Divinely Favored, Anchorwatch, FarsideJunky....(others welcomed to reply too).
> 
> Does it get easier or do you find yourself having to spend the rest of your life on alert? If I have to completely change who I am and spend the rest of my life constantly insuring that I never "lose character" or step out of that role because my wife will then take advantage of me, I don't even WANT that relationship. It all sounds very adversarial. She's supposed to be my partner not my opponent. I can't help but wonder if trading her for a Fleshlight wouldn't make my life easier, better, more fulfilling, and every bit as sensual.
> 
> The whole "lighthouse in a storm" things disturbs me. I'm supposed to be HER lighthouse and she gets to be MY raging weather? I don't get a lighthouse? Why? Because I'm a guy? Screw that, if we are NOT lighthouses for EACH OTHER, then why do I need her?
> 
> The more time goes by, the angrier I get. It seems very common for grown adult women to expect a man to provide, do, and be everything for her in exchange for one commodity and they act like it's in short supply.


Anger is normally a secondary emotion. The primary is likely hurt or fear.

Which is it for you?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

Meatball said:


> I'm at an awkward point. I said I would give her time to "turn the ship", and I think she's "trying" to step up, but when I think of HOW MUCH and HOW LONG I've been investing in this relationship, her efforts seem trivial, and I find myself feeling, "Nevermind. Keep it. I don't want your token efforts or one time gifts." I reallllllly don't want a relationship (this one or the next) to be this way.


That is your choice.

18 months, dude. 18 months is what it took for my wife to get to the point that I was settled with not leaving her. 

In that time, she was happy, sad, angry, resentful, joyful, furious...you get the picture. 

My response (with a few slips here and there) was to shrug my shoulders and go do something I wanted to do.

The lighthouse in the storm thing...yeah, I don't really care for it, either. I have said it on multiple occasions: I have no interest in managing a difficult sub.

All of that said, I hear nothing but resentment coming from you. What are you resenting?



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

lifeistooshort said:


> So what stands out to me that I've not seen addressed is the covert contracts thing and the fact that you had to email her to have a discussion.
> 
> Look, covert contracts are coward jerk moves. I'll admit that I could be projecting here because my ex was fabulous at these and was only willing to discuss things via email. Also a self proclaimed nice guy, he excelled in passive aggressive douchebag moves.
> 
> He set up covert contracts all the time, and he was so terrified of conflict that he never communicated things that bothered him, chose the path of least resistance for himself, then resented me for it. All the while I never got the courtesy of knowing what bothered him but boy was he mad at me for. it. I was regularly failing tests I had no idea I was taking.
> 
> You've got to communicate with your wife face to face. At least give her the opportunity to address your grievances, preferably before things boil over. Dealing with someone who sets up these contracts and doesn't communicate is exhausting, which could at least partially explain her lack of motivation.
> 
> Just another angle to consider.


This.

LITS has a nose for these things courtesy of her XH. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## DownByTheRiver

I just wanted to mention that if the roles were reversed, this would be a pretty typical family. I can't tell you how many women are doing everything while their husbands just work at their job. You didn't mention or maybe I just missed it whether you are also working a job. 

I know women who are working a job and doing everything else.


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## MattMatt

@Meatball you reminded me of the story of the frog in the hot water. 

However, I feel your wife might need counselling as she could be suffering from a depressive ailment.


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## Meatball

Hmmmm....where to begin?

I spent the night in a hotel. 

We've reconciled again. 

I was ready for divorce, but your words of wisdom really hit home. It suddenly occurred to me, "If I can't sit down with her and calmly rationally discuss our marriage, how will I be able to calmly rationally discuss our divorce?"

18 months huh? Ok. I think we're worth it and whatever choice I make, I don't want to regret my decision later. I don't want to look back and see all the other steps I COULD HAVE taken. I'll give it more time.

Why am I so resentful? I think it has less to do with her than it does my incredible immensely overwhelming sense of being screwed, cheated, and tricked out of my masculinity by the universe. I know now that I was raised, trained, indoctrinated, brainwashed to be a beta (beta-****). I've been neutered by my upbringing and now here I am at 47 struggling to be a man.

We just discovered one blinding example of this yesterday. Short version....she hates her job because they mistreat her. I hate her job because they mistreat her. Yet, she's a slave to her job. I feel second place to her job. Yesterday she told me that she doesn't feel needed or important at home. She wants be the PARTNER I want, but she's never known how to fit in because I'm so independent that she just feels in the way. Her job, as much as she hates it, gives her a sense of value and self worth that she doesn't get from me. I was shocked and horrified and told her how angry I've been all these years because I felt like she gave the best of her to her boss and left me the scraps. I told her I was done biting my tongue and watching her be abused. I said, "I can't stand to see my wife mistreated, abused, cheated, and ridiculed after sacrificing herself to them. It offends me to core and I HATE it when someone hurts my wife that way." Her answer and my response to her answer floored us both. She said she NEVER knew that I had felt that way and all these years she felt unloved because I NEVER came to her aid or showed any support. I said I thought women were "equals", wanted to fight their own battles, and resented the idea of needing a man's protection. I ASSUMED she would be offended by me trying to protect her. She's spent years waiting for me to be a man and thought she must have deserved her treatment at work because I never tried to protect her from it. 

I don't know if that's clear or just a big jumbled up mess. But the point is, I was operating on a covert contract, again, that assumed I knew what she wanted, she knew what I wanted, and we both knew that the other knew what we knew, without ever talking about it, and I was mad at her for not holding up her end of the contract!

How much pain and heartache we caused each other because we simply didn't talk it over a little bit.

I've got so much work to do. But I AM hopeful. I just gotta get this train back on the tracks!


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## MattMatt

@Meatball That's all good and it's a good very starting point.

Individual, couple's and family counselling is a must.

And please remember that we will always be here for you.


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## farsidejunky

Meatball said:


> Hmmmm....where to begin?
> 
> I spent the night in a hotel.
> 
> We've reconciled again.
> 
> I was ready for divorce, but your words of wisdom really hit home. It suddenly occurred to me, "If I can't sit down with her and calmly rationally discuss our marriage, how will I be able to calmly rationally discuss our divorce?"
> 
> 18 months huh? Ok. I think we're worth it and whatever choice I make, I don't want to regret my decision later. I don't want to look back and see all the other steps I COULD HAVE taken. I'll give it more time.
> 
> Why am I so resentful? I think it has less to do with her than it does my incredible immensely overwhelming sense of being screwed, cheated, and tricked out of my masculinity by the universe. I know now that I was raised, trained, indoctrinated, brainwashed to be a beta (beta-****). I've been neutered by my upbringing and now here I am at 47 struggling to be a man.
> 
> We just discovered one blinding example of this yesterday. Short version....she hates her job because they mistreat her. I hate her job because they mistreat her. Yet, she's a slave to her job. I feel second place to her job. Yesterday she told me that she doesn't feel needed or important at home. She wants be the PARTNER I want, but she's never known how to fit in because I'm so independent that she just feels in the way. Her job, as much as she hates it, gives her a sense of value and self worth that she doesn't get from me. I was shocked and horrified and told her how angry I've been all these years because I felt like she gave the best of her to her boss and left me the scraps. I told her I was done biting my tongue and watching her be abused. I said, "I can't stand to see my wife mistreated, abused, cheated, and ridiculed after sacrificing herself to them. It offends me to core and I HATE it when someone hurts my wife that way." Her answer and my response to her answer floored us both. She said she NEVER knew that I had felt that way and all these years she felt unloved because I NEVER came to her aid or showed any support. I said I thought women were "equals", wanted to fight their own battles, and resented the idea of needing a man's protection. I ASSUMED she would be offended by me trying to protect her. She's spent years waiting for me to be a man and thought she must have deserved her treatment at work because I never tried to protect her from it.
> 
> I don't know if that's clear or just a big jumbled up mess. But the point is, I was operating on a covert contract, again, that assumed I knew what she wanted, she knew what I wanted, and we both knew that the other knew what we knew, without ever talking about it, and I was mad at her for not holding up her end of the contract!
> 
> How much pain and heartache we caused each other because we simply didn't talk it over a little bit.
> 
> I've got so much work to do. But I AM hopeful. I just gotta get this train back on the tracks!


This is a great post. You are illustrating the wonderfully painful experiences of self-actualization and growth.

A few things for your consideration:

First, who are you really mad at for being 'cheated'?

If you think it's your wife, you are dead wrong. Here is a fantastic quote that will drive it home:

"People give up their own power, and then blame others for stealing it from them."

Own your ****. She took nothing that you didn't willingly give. She doesn't deserve to have misplaced anger projected upon her.

Second, stop with all the alpha/beta ****. The problem with those titles is that it often gives us a false idea of what we should be, rather than us focusing on being who we actually want to be. A prime example is your statement about not wanting to be the dominant person in the relationship. 

Be the man you want to be, with your priorities at the forefront of your decision making. If that makes you alpha...great. If that makes you beta...great. Be true to yourself first. Once that happens, the people who are supposed to be in your life will remain, while those who have no business being in your life will slowly disappear. 

Third, you just learned how important true communication actually is. Not coordination, which is discussing who picks up the kids and what we need on the next grocery trip...but actual, emotional communication. 

You want to know what's really going to boil your egg? Your wife is just now...after years of marriage...getting a chance to know the REAL you. Let that one soak in for a while. 

Fourth, your wife looks at you as being independent likely because you don't give her much room in your life to be able to assist with things. A few years of things moving that direction, early in your relationship, was all it took for her to believe her effort was not really needed there.

And despite what your words may say, your actions were saying something entirely different.

Lastly, If you focus on what happens from day to day, your marriage will end, likely by your hand. You have to look at it strategically, from the 50,000 foot view, and watch the trajectory of the proverbial graph rather than the incremental ups and downs. 

Keeping your eye on that overall trajectory will keep minor setbacks in perspective. And if you are deliberate about what I suggested in the second note, this will solve itself anyway.

Be patient...especially when you don't want to be.

Keep working. You're already making progress, even if it doesn't feel like it.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Oldtimer

Assuming can really throw a wrench into a relationship. Never assume. Seems like you both are on the right path, but before you get all pissy at her, remember that things become habit forming and the things you were talking about in your op can be construed as habits ( stretching a bit here, but). Once things start getting done it does become habitual. I do like your wife’s attitude.
Unfortunately sometimes realization comes too late, but in your case, better late than the other option.


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## Divinely Favored

Meatball said:


> @Divinely Favored, Anchorwatch, FarsideJunky....(others welcomed to reply too).
> 
> Does it get easier or do you find yourself having to spend the rest of your life on alert? If I have to completely change who I am and spend the rest of my life constantly insuring that I never "lose character" or step out of that role because my wife will then take advantage of me, I don't even WANT that relationship. It all sounds very adversarial. She's supposed to be my partner not my opponent. I can't help but wonder if trading her for a Fleshlight wouldn't make my life easier, better, more fulfilling, and every bit as sensual.
> 
> The whole "lighthouse in a storm" things disturbs me. I'm supposed to be HER lighthouse and she gets to be MY raging weather? I don't get a lighthouse? Why? Because I'm a guy? Screw that, if we are NOT lighthouses for EACH OTHER, then why do I need her?
> 
> The more time goes by, the angrier I get. It seems very common for grown adult women to expect a man to provide, do, and be everything for her in exchange for one commodity and they act like it's in short supply.


The lighthouse analogy means when she gets emotional to not give in to appease her. Stand your ground if you are in the right and she eventually sees and returns and apologises for her behavior and being upset for no valid reason.

Also women have an innate need to be safe and protected. They will at times **** test you to reassure themselves that you are still the man. 

My wife was going to do something one day and was adamant she was. I told her No you are not and get your azz down off the ladder! She did as she was told with a smile. It turned her on i put my foot down and was about to spank that azz. Its in asserting masculinity.


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## Divinely Favored

lifeistooshort said:


> So what stands out to me that I've not seen addressed is the covert contracts thing and the fact that you had to email her to have a discussion.
> 
> Look, covert contracts are coward jerk moves. I'll admit that I could be projecting here because my ex was fabulous at these and was only willing to discuss things via email. Also a self proclaimed nice guy, he excelled in passive aggressive douchebag moves.
> 
> He set up covert contracts all the time, and he was so terrified of conflict that he never communicated things that bothered him, chose the path of least resistance for himself, then resented me for it. All the while I never got the courtesy of knowing what bothered him but boy was he mad at me for. it. I was regularly failing tests I had no idea I was taking.
> 
> You've got to communicate with your wife face to face. At least give her the opportunity to address your grievances, preferably before things boil over. Dealing with someone who sets up these contracts and doesn't communicate is exhausting, which could at least partially explain her lack of motivation.
> 
> Just another angle to consider.


My wife could compare notes with you to a T. Until about 7 yrs ago when i broke and we had a long talk and over 2 days unloaded alot of things i was resentful for that she had no idea. I had learned from my parents marriage. After that i communicated and also resented my mom for how she behaviod and my dad for being a weak dpormat and not standing up to her. My marriage has moved to a higher level that the previous 15 yrs. Thanks to HNHN, MMSLP AND NMMNG


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

If you only get angrier and believe she's not bringing anything to the relationship then by all means to the respectful thing and D her swiftly.

That simple. Do or do not. There is no try.


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## lifeistooshort

Divinely Favored said:


> My wife could compare notes with you to a T. Until about 7 yrs ago when i broke and we had a long talk and over 2 days unloaded alot of things i was resentful for that she had no idea. I had learned from my parents marriage. After that i communicated and also resented my mom for how she behaviod and my dad for being a weak dpormat and not standing up to her. My marriage has moved to a higher level that the previous 15 yrs. Thanks to HNHN, MMSLP AND NMMNG


I'm so happy you were able to deal with that.

My ex was unwilling and unable to deal with it. Throw in the fact that hw kept an ex gf around for our entire relationship and that was it for us.


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## Meatball

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> If you only get angrier and believe she's not bringing anything to the relationship then by all means to the respectful thing and D her swiftly.
> 
> That simple. Do or do not. There is no try.


I appreciate your input and your sentiment about taking action when action is needed.

I think though, that I only really agree with your Yoda quote. I WANT to fix this marriage, and to THAT, I would say "Do or do not. There is no TRY."

As we've talked over the recent weeks, we've both grown. Therapy has helped but so has simply talking with each other about our feelings, needs, wants, and I think most importantly, our previously held ASSumptions.

I fully intend to continue working on my MAP.

One startling revelation I've had, SINCE dropping the D-bomb, is the fact that MY problems would only manifest themselves in ALL of my subsequent relationships with any woman. So, divorce is NOT the solution I need. It would cause a ton of hurt all around and do nothing to make ME a better man.


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## Meatball

Divinely Favored said:


> The lighthouse analogy means when she gets emotional to not give in to appease her. Stand your ground if you are in the right and she eventually sees and returns and apologises for her behavior and being upset for no valid reason.....
> .....Its in asserting masculinity.


I get it. I just don't like the implication that the woman gets a lighthouse and the man does not. 

But I realize now that she HAS always been the light in my storm. She's tough, resilient, and never tried to lash out or hurt me the way I have her.

And you, and others, are 100% right. My wife is a woman who WANTS a MAN, NOT an imitation or a look alike, but a REAL MAN. 

I'm getting there!


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## Meatball

Divinely Favored said:


> The lighthouse analogy means when she gets emotional to not give in to appease her. Stand your ground if you are in the right and she eventually sees and returns and apologises for her behavior and being upset for no valid reason.....
> .....Its in asserting masculinity.


I get it. I just don't like the implication that the woman gets a lighthouse and the man does not. 

But I realize now that she HAS always been the light in my storm. She's tough, resilient, and never tried to lash out or hurt me the way I have her.

And you, and others, are 100% right. My wife is a woman who WANTS a MAN, NOT an imitation or a look alike, but a REAL MAN. 

I'm getting there


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## Meatball

Double tap.


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## Divinely Favored

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm so happy you were able to deal with that.
> 
> My ex was unwilling and unable to deal with it. Throw in the fact that hw kept an ex gf around for our entire relationship and that was it for us.


Im very anti ex. Unless there are kids involved, i believe one should cut ties to an ex. No contact! 
And warn a spouse if they should end up working with or start to become friends with one of your exs.


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## Meatball

@farsidejunky: Who am I really mad at? I DON'T know, but I'm rereading NMMNG and in the very beginning Dr Glover says, "Their inclination is to hang on to belief systems that have PROVEN to be consistently unworkable, yet are SO imbedded in their unconscious mind that to challenge them is tantamount to heresy."😧 I told you I'm the guy he was writing about!

Everything else you've said is also spot on. I appreciate and am trying to apply all of it. I especially like watching the overall trajectory instead of the minute to minute ups and downs. 

I'm done (mostly) being angry. I read once, "You can get bitter or you can get better." I'm ready to be better.

Thanks again!


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## Cromer

@Meatball Long story short I stayed for the last sexless 10 years of a 30-year marriage for the kids. On the outside, everything was normal and my ex was perfectly happy. I tried everything to fix things. My ex would always say that she knew, she'd work on it, etc. but nothing ever changed. I finally decided that being trapped in a miserable, unhappy situation was no longer acceptable, and when my youngest graduated HS, I was out. She was none too happy but I finally decided to put my happiness first for the first time in my life.

I would say that my great Life's Regret is not pulling the trigger ten years earlier, but then I wouldn't have met the amazing wife and have the awesome relationship that I have now. If you find yourself bored, wade through my thread in this section and you'll see that it wasn't easy, but ultimately worth it. I wish you the best.

Edited to Add: I am not recommending that you leave, just telling you my story from the benefit of hindsight.


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## farsidejunky

What are you doing for exercise?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Meatball

Cromer, I'll check it out. Thanks.

FarsideJunky, I do Taekwondo with my oldest son twice a week and try to bike ride 2-3 hours a week.


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## Casual Observer

@Meatball , something to consider is that your wife, in real time, is being subjected to the emotional roller coaster we've seen here. Your posts are those of a man on a jouney, but it's a life-long process that you're necessarily compressing into a very short period of time because you're frustrated, you've had that come-to-Jesus moment, you feel you've articulated your needs to your wife and, from your point of view, all she has to do is accept your entirely-reasonable position.

Except that your entirely-reasonable position continues to evolve and you continue your journey from the guy you wish you never were to the guy you want to be.

There is no guarantee that you can become the guy you want to be. It's not a vision that your wife can likely share in a helpful way, either. And your wife, seeing the roller coaster of emotions you're displaying, has to be wondering who's sleeping next to her tonight because it's not the same person it was a couple weeks ago nor is it the same person she'll be sharing a bed with two weeks down the road.

So here's the ultimate paradox. YOUR patience is wearing thin because your wife still doesn't really get it; she makes little changes here and there, but you see her back pedaling. If you're damned lucky, you're seeing two steps forward, one step back. More likely you FEEL like it's a groundhog-day thing, where she continues to reset things back to where they were. Like a cruel game giving you hope, just enough to keep you going, while you're not really moving forward.

And your wife? She feels pretty much exactly the same. HER patience is wearing thin because she doesn't understand what she's expected to do. She understands enough to know that agreeing to what you say is a good thing, because it calms the discussion, gets her off the hook for a while, and APPEARS to validate your concerns. But she gets tired of the expectations, thinking that "trying" is something she should get credit for, and when are you going to give her credit???!!! 

I know nothing about this. Absolutely 100% nothing whatsoever. I wish.


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## farsidejunky

Hey, @Meatball...checking up on you again.

How are things?

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## Chuck71

@Meatball...... you are getting A+ advice. I have never R'd...after my DDay I went to a dark place for about a month.

Even though in my heart, the M had been over for several years. My backstory is still on TAM. But I came from that

hole with boundaries and boldness. This highly attracted her. But after being away from her a few weeks, I did not

want to go back. I never looked back. That was almost 8 years ago.

I recommend two reads..... "Awareness" by DeMello. and "Abolition of Man" by CS Lewis.

"Try" to bring your A game daily.....virtually impossible to do but it reaps massive results.


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## Meatball

Sorry for the long delay. I've been busy all week.

Things are MUCH better. 

We are both making a conscious effort to better ourselves. I've been rereading NMMNG, working on my self awareness, and trying to consciously apply ALL my new found knowledge.

I bought her a hardcopy of NNMNG which she is reading and we are discussing. She sees many of the tendencies in herself and is trying to make herself a better person.

She was nervous about the book, and tbe possibility of me changing. I explained that over the years, I have tried so hard to please her and win her affection, that I unconsciously tried to BE like her. Ironically, THAT means I have been LESS like the man she was attracted to in the first place!!! I believe that BEING ME will make me more attractive to and appreciated by her. 

Never thought I'd have such a hard time....being me. LOL.

Chuck is right. I've received a ton of grade A advice. THANK YOU all...


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## Meatball

Hello everyone. I'm back.

I think I've figured something out. My wife is a submissive, but she lacks any self awareness of it. I believe the reason she has the devoted relationship she does, with her job, is PRECISELY because they have NO hesitation to command and control her. They bark orders AKA "express their needs" and she gives them every last drop of her soul. I think it makes her feel useful, important, needed, and valuable. Apparently, she does NOT get that from me.

It took me a long time to realize, accept, and admit this, but I am also a submissive! I want and NEED to submit to a greater good or higher power, something bigger than myself. I need to "serve". I am more of an independent / Libertarian submissive though. I don't want to be a slave OR a master. I want to be responsible, independent, and FREE, and to partner with like minded people.

I think my wife NEEDS someone or something to DOMINATE her, to control her. That is where she gets her only sense of worth and why she is addicted to her job. She will do whatever I command her to do (within in reason), but I DON'T want to spend the rest of my life "COMMANDING" my wife.

Ironically, our sex life is great because I have no problem "playing" a dominant role in the bedroom. I can throw her down on the bed, smack her ass, and "make" her do whatever I want, but I can't bring myself to "make" her do chores, be more responsible for our future, or give less of herself to her job.

I don't think I can ever meet this need of hers. And I don't think she can meet my need of having an EQUAL partner.

I'm very actively planning for retirement (of course without ANY effort from her), but I REALLLLLLLY GENUINELY can't imagine her leaving her job. How can you have ONE source of all that you are, define yourself/your life entirely by that one thing, devote your entire body and soul to that ONE source of YOUR self.....and just walk away one day? It's like being on life support and saying you're just gonna unplug everything and go live.....NOW!

After 20 years together, we are still very much IN LOVE with each other, but I think had we each better understood our own needs, and those of the other, we would have realized we were never REALLLLLLLY compatible. For our marriage to "work", someone always has to be "faking it", ie, NOT being their true and genuine self. She has to "play" more of a submissive role in the chores and responsibilities or I have to "play" the role of a dominant patriarch. Neither of which honors who we REALLLLLY are.


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## Rob_1

Meatball said:


> It took me a long time to realize, accept, and admit this, but I am also a submissive! I want and NEED to submit to a greater good or higher power, something bigger than myself. I need to "serve". I am more of an independent / Libertarian submissive though. I don't want to be a slave OR a master. I want to be responsible, independent, and FREE, and to partner with like minded people.


Oh please, you've been reading too much, and going round and round with your dilemma.



Meatball said:


> I don't think I can ever meet this need of hers. And I don't think she can meet my need of having an EQUAL partner.


I got that from the very first post you made. I told you option one or two (they both were the same result). I guess that by know that's how it will be, no divorce, just pretending and forced to act like someone that it's not you, or her. So bottom line: after all this you're still "back to future". it looks like that's where you'll end up.


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## farsidejunky

Meatball said:


> Hello everyone. I'm back.
> 
> I think I've figured something out. My wife is a submissive, but she lacks any self awareness of it. I believe the reason she has the devoted relationship she does, with her job, is PRECISELY because they have NO hesitation to command and control her. They bark orders AKA "express their needs" and she gives them every last drop of her soul. I think it makes her feel useful, important, needed, and valuable. Apparently, she does NOT get that from me.
> 
> It took me a long time to realize, accept, and admit this, but I am also a submissive! I want and NEED to submit to a greater good or higher power, something bigger than myself. I need to "serve". I am more of an independent / Libertarian submissive though. I don't want to be a slave OR a master. I want to be responsible, independent, and FREE, and to partner with like minded people.
> 
> I think my wife NEEDS someone or something to DOMINATE her, to control her. That is where she gets her only sense of worth and why she is addicted to her job. She will do whatever I command her to do (within in reason), but I DON'T want to spend the rest of my life "COMMANDING" my wife.
> 
> Ironically, our sex life is great because I have no problem "playing" a dominant role in the bedroom. I can throw her down on the bed, smack her ass, and "make" her do whatever I want, but I can't bring myself to "make" her do chores, be more responsible for our future, or give less of herself to her job.
> 
> I don't think I can ever meet this need of hers. And I don't think she can meet my need of having an EQUAL partner.
> 
> I'm very actively planning for retirement (of course without ANY effort from her), but I REALLLLLLLY GENUINELY can't imagine her leaving her job. How can you have ONE source of all that you are, define yourself/your life entirely by that one thing, devote your entire body and soul to that ONE source of YOUR self.....and just walk away one day? It's like being on life support and saying you're just gonna unplug everything and go live.....NOW!
> 
> After 20 years together, we are still very much IN LOVE with each other, but I think had we each better understood our own needs, and those of the other, we would have realized we were never REALLLLLLLY compatible. For our marriage to "work", someone always has to be "faking it", ie, NOT being their true and genuine self. She has to "play" more of a submissive role in the chores and responsibilities or I have to "play" the role of a dominant patriarch. Neither of which honors who we REALLLLLY are.


That leaves you with a stark choice:

1. Fake it and keep the marriage, but live without authenticity. 

2. Live authentically, and let the chips fall where they may.

I would choose the latter, and actually did when I met a crossroads in marriage. Yet, my wife and I are still together. I'm not being overly dominant, but have leanings towards it (if that makes sense). 

That said, even if you are submissive in nature, never avoid stating what you want. Then, rather than pressing her for it or telling her to do it, tell her, then give her the space to give it to you. I found a pretty special place in that space with my wife. 



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## Meatball

GOD BLESS you all. 

I can't say what "forever" holds, but my journey continues. I AM living my life and BEING the man I WANT to be. I feel like I'm still brand new at this stuff, but already I've affected others and started them on their own paths. Of 6 men, I know of, 3 (including my best friend) are divorcing their wives, 2 are still uncertain, 1 plans to stay married, and ALL of them think they've found the salvation they were looking for. 

My wife, my life, my marriage, my sons, and I, are all better than ever. Being your authentic self, can be "hard", but it is reallllllly "simple"....just BE the person YOU WANT to be. Instead of WWJD bracelets, I imagine wearing one that says WWID? I've been following a simple philosophy; in everything I do, I ask myself, "In a perfect world, WHAT would* I *do?" Then DO that! and as many here have said, "Let the chips fall where they may."

THANK YOU...


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## Chuck71

If one does not love thy self....why should others?

When you love thy self, amazing how others will follow.


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## farsidejunky

Good stuff, dude. 

Sometimes people think leading is telling people what to do. 

Leadership is more about living and being authentic, starting with yourself. Inspiration to others often follows, as you have seen.

Just keep being great. Your life will go the direction it should.

All the best. 

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