# Mismatched Libidos



## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

I feel like this is a crazy place to seek advice, but I do have a backup plan with a therapist! I am scheduled to start sessions after the holidays. I have just followed this website for a while and thought I would look for some perspective. Any constructive advice is appreciated.

My (33M) situation is not some horror story as I have two beautiful sons (4 years and 6 months) and a loving wife (32F). We have been together for 15 years and married for 10. We are often happy, laugh, and have a great time together. The problem is that I do not feel happy with our sex life.

I believe this problem has been there for a long as I desire sex much more often than she does. In the early years, it was less apparent. We didn't live with each other and sex was regular when we were together. My perfect world would be 1-2 times per day. I believe my wife has always enjoyed sex, but rarely initiates and her drive has diminished with age and child birth. I think she would be ok with once a week, but might not be bothered by once every month or less. I think the main reason she wants to have sex in the first place is to please me. She will sometimes initiate sex, but I feel like her heart is only half in it. I have tried my best to improve my performance for her, but she is okay with our current situation and will not provide solutions to any potential bedroom issues. I know that I will never get my full desires, but I hope for something that resembles a fair compromise. However, I also desire more quality sex and, therefore, no longer push for sex at any cost. I will not accept sex that she does not want to participate in (no duty sex). As the days without sex continue and stretch into weeks, I often feel a huge sense of self loathing (loss of my self esteem) and my overall happiness drops.

To get ahead of a few comments, I am extremely attentive to household chores, we do weekly date nights where we dream together about future travel (and other things), and I often surprise her with small gifts. On her end, she makes a tremendous effort to please me in almost every way (acts of service is her love language). We parent well together and she is a great mother. If you are searching for a smoking gun (and find it), then I applaud you, but I think we are mostly looking at a pure case of mismatched libidos.

We did go through a rough patch earlier this year about returning to intimacy after our second child. I waited patiently for approval. Then, when we got the okay, we moved very slowly with light "stretching" to reduce pain before actual intercourse. We were ready with the lube and a careful mindset. As the pain went away, I hoped that we would return to a slightly more regular sex life. The problem drug on however. I stopped pushing for sex and started to try to cultivate other parts of the relationship in hopes that she might eventually regain some of her libido. So, I decided to let her come to me and take the pressure off of sex, but she loves this new paradigm and rarely initiates sex. She seems really happy with the relationship, but I know that my psyche is starting to show cracks. I feel like I hide them from her, but it is devastating me. We have talked in respectful and quality tones about our issues, but it comes down to a "I'm not feeling connected" v. "I just don't have any desire right now." I am not really looking for a number (I would and always have would prefer everyday), but we have always been a "when the moment strikes" kind of couple. We might have sex twice in a night or three times in two days, then go a week without. I was always fine with that, but it involved a great degree of passion (even 12+ years into our relationship with a child).

I have done the research and understand the impact of child rearing and breastfeeding on libido. So, I know that our situation is somewhat normal (although it feels more like an acceleration of pre-kid trends). I just can't help with the feelings of rejection and the lack of connection. I am trying to keep the unrest to my end by continuing to help around the house, cuddle, and fulfill her needs as much as possible. I just don't know how long I can keep up neglecting my primary needs. I had a vasectomy (two kids was always the plan), but I also hope that not fearing another pregnancy and getting off birth control could help her in our relationship.

With that background information, here are some questions for the board:

How do people with low libidos think about sex? Is it something that they are deliberately withholding (could do if they would simply allow it) or do they simply never consider it?
Sex is on my mind throughout most times of the day. So, I wanted to know what it felt like to be someone who did not allow themselves to have sex. How do they view it and what goes through their mind when considering sex? I have read about responsive desire and the pitfalls there, but wouldn't a partner realize after a while that they always desire sex once it started?


If I have to play a super long game and continue to fulfill all of my wife's needs without mine being met with the hope that her libido normalizes when child responsibilities lesson, then how should I cope in the meantime?
If all the normal "tips" have been followed and it is still 4-10 days (or more) between experiences, then what can be done to helped the rejected. I have thought about ways to lessen desire for my wife as that could help solve my problem to some degree. As I stated above, I am starting therapy to deal with my own issues on this question, but would like any help that you could provide.


Any tips for re-engaging my wife more effectively?
Finally, this is an odd question, but should I tell my wife that I am going to go to see a therapist? I fear that she will feel alienated and pressured if she knows the real reason that I am seeking help. I have struggled mightily with this for much of this year, but am becoming more frustrated and resentful. She does not deserve that and I need to find a way to fix the problem or cope with the consequences of my situation.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Why post if this is a “crazy place”? All the therapy is the world is not going to make her put out.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

She has a 6 month old that can effect libido. I know it did mine. There will be some men stop by that had sex the day of birth or something. On TAM every one is above average except the sexless.

Are you sure the pain is gone? Mine lasted a very long time. Way past 6 months. And the pain being gone doesn’t equate to pleasure being back.

Beyond mechanics let’s talk your approach. She has a low to zero libido for whatever reason but you put initiating on her. That’s never going to work great.

Have you tried scheduling?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> I feel like this is a crazy place to seek advice, but I do have a backup plan with a therapist! I am scheduled to start sessions after the holidays. I have just followed this website for a while and thought I would look for some perspective. Any constructive advice is appreciated.
> 
> My (33M) situation is not some horror story as I have two beautiful sons (4 years and 6 months) and a loving wife (32F). We have been together for 15 years and married for 10. We are often happy, laugh, and have a great time together. The problem is that I do not feel happy with our sex life.
> 
> ...


Can you explain why you are making HER needs and wants the most important things in your marriage? The best, happiest marriages are where BOTH partners give eachother's needs and wants EQUAL importance, so why would you allow HER needs and wants to matter more than YOURS...?? You are showing her by your attitude and actions that you don't believe that your sexual needs matter in your sexual relationship...so why do you believe that will make her want to care about your needs at all?

You say that you've tried to lessen your desire for your wife, all so you don't feel resentful that you've given her all the power in your relationship...?? Do you realize what a toxic, damaging attitude that is? You would rather deaden your natural attraction and desire for your most loved partner, than to stand up and assert yourself in your marriage as an equal partner who deserves equal consideration? Is having sexual desire in your marriage so offensive and terrible that you need to erase it? Why are you ashamed that you love and want lots of sex with your wife?

You sound like you are trying not to make her uncomfortable with your sexual needs...but I think it's really more that you don't want to make YOURSELF uncomfortable by being assertive about your own needs, and advocating to be an equal partner in your marriage.

Once you allow your wife to believe that her needs and wants matter more than yours, you are going to have a much harder time turning this around later when you realize you made a terrible mistake and you are now dying of thirst with a partner who holds all the water.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> I think the main reason she wants to have sex in the first place is to please me. She will sometimes initiate sex, but I feel like her heart is only half in it


Why are you bothered by her initiating sex to please you? 

What is it that makes you think her heart is only half into it? 

It sounds like you expect her to view and respond to sex like you do. You will make yourself miserable if you continue to think this way. 

Do yourself a favor and read Passionate Marriage by Schnarch, and Come As You Are by Nagoski. 



WantToPleaseHer said:


> I know that I will never get my full desires, but I hope for something that resembles a fair compromise.


What does a fair compromise look like to you?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Did she regain her libido after the first child?


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

RebuildingMe said:


> Why post if this is a “crazy place”? All the therapy is the world is not going to make her put out.


Double post


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

RebuildingMe said:


> Why post if this is a “crazy place”? All the therapy is the world is not going to make her put out.


You are absolutely correct. It was more of an offhand comment. The therapy is more to help me deal with the consequences because I highly doubt that I am a good enough man (despite my efforts) to be desired at this point. So, in desperation, I am seeking answers from far and wide.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> I have tried my best to improve my performance for her, but she is okay with our current situation and will not provide solutions to any potential bedroom issues.


Your performance IMO is irrelevant. She is fine with no performance.



WantToPleaseHer said:


> I hope for something that resembles a fair compromise.





WantToPleaseHer said:


> As the days without sex continue and stretch into weeks, I often feel a huge sense of self loathing (loss of my self esteem) and my overall happiness drops.


Acquiescing in this situation isn't doing your marriage any good at all. You need to engage, and let her fully understand the damage she is doing to her husband and her marriage. And ultimately to your children. Waiting for her to initiate isn't going to work. I have been married for a very long time. Wife and I have the frequency that you desire and we are in our seventies. My wife has rarely initiated, but very enthusiastically responds to me romancing her. Lose this fixation of her initiating. And, I would submit scheduling a time for romance at LEAST weekly would be a good thing. We have had a daily schedule since when our kids were born. Busy lives and kids IMO necessitate planning for intimacy and not just expecting it to randomly happen. 




WantToPleaseHer said:


> I am extremely attentive to household chores


Chores are irrelevant! They have zero to do with intimacy in a marriage.



WantToPleaseHer said:


> So, I decided to let her come to me and take the pressure off of sex, but she loves this new paradigm and rarely initiates sex


This is a mistake. It isn't "pressure" to romance her. I doubt she loves this new paradigm. 


WantToPleaseHer said:


> I hide them from her, but it is devastating me. We have talked in respectful and quality tones about our issues, but it comes down to a "I'm not feeling connected" v. "I just don't have any desire right now."


Don't hide these problems. You need to work this with her to successful resolution.



WantToPleaseHer said:


> I just don't know how long I can keep up neglecting my primary needs.


Not long



WantToPleaseHer said:


> How do people with low libidos think about sex? Is it something that they are deliberately withholding (could do if they would simply allow it) or *do they simply never consider it?*


What is in bold



WantToPleaseHer said:


> Finally, this is an odd question, but should I tell my wife that I am going to go to see a therapist? I fear that she will feel alienated and pressured if she knows the real reason that I am seeking help.


Yes. Tell her what is going on,



WantToPleaseHer said:


> I have struggled mightily with this for much of this year, but am becoming more frustrated and resentful.


A year is 11 months too long


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

Anastasia6 said:


> She has a 6 month old that can effect libido. I know it did mine. There will be some men stop by that had sex the day of birth or something. On TAM every one is above average except the sexless.
> 
> Are you sure the pain is gone? Mine lasted a very long time. Way past 6 months. And the pain being gone doesn’t equate to pleasure being back.
> 
> ...


I really appreciate your post and I truly believe the pain is gone as she is very open about when things hurt. We didn't even have sex for 6 months after our first son due to our lack of understanding about how to help her body. We were better and went slowly this time. The first few times were a little touchy, but she says the pain is gone now.

The bigger question as you said is how it feels. I do believe that she hasn't enjoyed it to the same degree as before. Can you explain more about how that might feel or how it may be inhibited? Another part of the issue with our sex life, in my opinion, is that no matter how hard I try, she no longer accept a high degree of foreplay. She has never been big on me going down on her, but that is off the table now in all circumstances, which seems like it could be a good solution to our problem. She also won't really touch me anymore, but wants to get straight to it. Lately, she has genuinely enjoyed our time (I can generally tell my her breathing and how she relaxes), but I think it just lacks importance to her. Almost like she is indifferent.

On the approach, I agree that it is an issue. The odd thing is that I have noticed is that my attempts at initiation are always rejected. However, it almost seems like she has a pressure or tension valve after a few rejections that she eventually decides a day that works for her and will initiate with a "should we go upstairs?" Even then, I would say she is best lukewarm and doing it for me. She usually enjoys herself, but the initiation is from a sense of duty and it is not the same as it used to be. I think on some level that I am concerned that our former relationship is gone (which is with children) and I might need to find a way to better accept this. I understand that you cannot negotiate desire.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

This is complicated with your children and especially your new baby.

If you didn’t have those stressors my recommendation would be to read “The Dead Bedroom Fix” by DSO. In particular look to see if you have unattractive behaviors and fix all of that. I don’t know anything about kids so maybe trying to have sex with a woman with a six month old is unattractive in and of itself.

Once all of that is corrected, you need to figure out what you’re prepared to do in order to fix the situation above and beyond correcting any unattractive behaviors. For example, would you divorce in order to look for someone who is more sexually compatible?

If so, how realistic is that for you?

If you see a path forward that way then you have a way to reverse the power dynamics of the relationship.

I don’t recommend having “the talk” with your wife until you have decided you’re ok to walk away.

If you’re not there or maybe won’t be there then I suggest reading about communication techniques especially involving “I” language. When you initiate and get rejected if you can explain how that makes you feel without using “you” maybe that will do something. I doubt it though.

In my case what got my wife to respond was me telling her that our relationship would not continue the same way anymore and yes I was prepared to leave. Of course with no kids this is much easier.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

RebuildingMe said:


> Why post if this is a “crazy place”? All the therapy is the world is not going to make her put out.


I tried to reply to this, but it did not seem to work. More of an offhand comment. Much like the ridiculous comment about compromise. I understand that you cannot negotiate desire. The therapy is more of an attempt to help me deal with my new situation.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

LisaDiane said:


> Can you explain why you are making HER needs and wants the most important things in your marriage? The best, happiest marriages are where BOTH partners give eachother's needs and wants EQUAL importance, so why would you allow HER needs and wants to matter more than YOURS...?? You are showing her by your attitude and actions that you don't believe that your sexual needs matter in your sexual relationship...so why do you believe that will make her want to care about your needs at all?
> 
> You say that you've tried to lessen your desire for your wife, all so you don't feel resentful that you've given her all the power in your relationship...?? Do you realize what a toxic, damaging attitude that is? You would rather deaden your natural attraction and desire for your most loved partner, than to stand up and assert yourself in your marriage as an equal partner who deserves equal consideration? Is having sexual desire in your marriage so offensive and terrible that you need to erase it? Why are you ashamed that you love and want lots of sex with your wife?
> 
> ...





LisaDiane said:


> Can you explain why you are making HER needs and wants the most important things in your marriage? The best, happiest marriages are where BOTH partners give eachother's needs and wants EQUAL importance, so why would you allow HER needs and wants to matter more than YOURS...?? You are showing her by your attitude and actions that you don't believe that your sexual needs matter in your sexual relationship...so why do you believe that will make her want to care about your needs at all?
> 
> You say that you've tried to lessen your desire for your wife, all so you don't feel resentful that you've given her all the power in your relationship...?? Do you realize what a toxic, damaging attitude that is? You would rather deaden your natural attraction and desire for your most loved partner, than to stand up and assert yourself in your marriage as an equal partner who deserves equal consideration? Is having sexual desire in your marriage so offensive and terrible that you need to erase it? Why are you ashamed that you love and want lots of sex with your wife?
> 
> ...


About two months ago, I thought there was a chance to increase our frequency and quality in our relationship. I was advocating strongly for its importance. She seemed to be digging in harder and feeling pressure. Every conversation that involved sex was a personal attack on her. Usually they ended in empty and demeaning threats from her such as “maybe you should just masturbate or find somebody else to have sex with,” both of which would mean a definite end of the marriage. So, eventually, I just backed off in hopes that something changes.

I really appreciate your kind, but tough words. What you said is exactly how I feel, but I am attempting to be practical. I am trying to decide whether a dissatisfied sex life with someone I otherwise love and the chance to be around my kids is worth It. At this point, I think suppressing what I need seems like the best of several bad alternatives.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

Lila said:


> Why are you bothered by her initiating sex to please you?
> 
> What is it that makes you think her heart is only half into it?
> 
> ...


I will look into those books and I appreciate the comments. I just feel there is a look in someone’s eye and a feel in their body that used to be there, but isn’t anymore. I guess if she can muster up the energy in an effort to please me, I should just appreciate it.
As for the compromise comment, I feel that was dumb to include. You can’t negotiate desire. Depending on the circumstances (sickness or other important factors), I start to struggle after four to six days. So, resentment starts to creep after that time.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> More of an off hand comment. The therapy is to help me deal with my* failure as a husband.*


This right here is what you need to banish from your thoughts. Your wife having low libido isn't because you are a failure. Maybe you need to get some activities like working out at the gym or running to get your mind on things other than your crummy sex life. These will build your mind and body independent of what is happening with your marriage. A man needs to have a mission for himself.


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## Mr. Rocksteady89 (24 d ago)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> I stopped pushing for sex and started to try to cultivate other parts of the relationship in hopes that she might eventually regain some of her libido. So, I decided to let her come to me and take the pressure off of sex, but she loves this new paradigm and rarely initiates sex. She seems really happy with the relationship, but I know that my psyche is starting to show cracks. I feel like I hide them from her, but it is devastating me. We have talked in respectful and quality tones about our issues, but it comes down to a "I'm not feeling connected" v. "I just don't have any desire right now." I am not really looking for a number (I would and always have would prefer everyday), but we have always been a "when the moment strikes" kind of couple. We might have sex twice in a night or three times in two days, then go a week without. I was always fine with that, but it involved a great degree of passion (even 12+ years into our relationship with a child).


Two things stand out and they both come from the above paragraph. First, you may have inadvertently implied to your wife that intimacy was no longer important to you. (at least that this moment). It's very easy for spouses to confuse being understanding with not interested. You have to communicate that sex is still very important to you, but you're willing to temporarily put that need on hold for her. The key word here is "temporarily." However, stopping all physical pursuit for her is not the answer. Nothing will kill her libido faster than not the feeling that she's not desirable. That obviously wasn't your intention, but you may have very well did that. Try to be sensual to her, touch her, let her know how beautiful she is, tell her how much you desire her, and perhaps invite her to be present while you please yourself (takes the pressure off of her). Your pursuit for her may not always end the way you want, but I'd bet you will be more successful than if you were to just wait for her desire to boil over to the point where she rips your clothes off. She might feel that her body has changed a little bit and is hesitant to reveal that side of herself. 

Secondly, this is in regard to comment about the discussions about intimacy. I'd hope that neither of you are accepting the "I'm not feeling, or I don't have desire" excuses and leaving it at that. This is a generalization comment and not aimed directly at your situation, but it surprises me how many marriages have one or both spouses believing that it's totality acceptable to just tell your spouse that you don't feel like it when it comes to intimacy. "I don't feel like it" is literally not acceptable in any other circumstances of marriage. Do you always want to go to work? No, but you still do. Do you always want to run around the house after a toddler? No, but you still do. Do you always want to cook dinner, mow the lawn, take the garbage out, pay bills, or any other tasks that required of you? No, but you still do. The point here is that you or your spouse, absent any physical or mental issues, shouldn't be consistently accepting "I don't feel like it" as an excuse for not fulfilling the desires of your spouse. Find out why you and your spouse don't feel connected or is lacking desire and make an effort together to fix it. Talk about it, be completely transparent, and work at it every day. Don't change your marriage to fit undesirable circumstances. Change the circumstances to fit your desired marriage.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> “maybe you should just masturbate or *find somebody else to have sex with*,” both of which would mean a definite end of the marriage. So, eventually, I just backed off in hopes that something changes.


This right here is way wrong from her. There are other men on TAM who have received this same verbiage from their "wives" after being in a dead bedroom for months or years. You two maybe need a facilitated discussion about this. Sooner rather than later. If this is really how she feeds, it follows she is fine with ending the marriage. Of course you have to be fully willing to go there, or she will know she holds the leash and there is nothing you will do about it. That is how the men on TAM living in this h3ll go from days to weeks to years to decades. Ending up old without intimacy from a person who vowed to do otherwise. 

My advice is don't let this crap fester. Take the initiative to confront the issue and solve it one way or another. Sooner rather than later.



WantToPleaseHer said:


> I start to struggle after four to six days. *So, resentment starts to creep after that time.*


Inaction will only make this worse.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> About two months I thought there was a chance to increase our frequency and quality in our relationship. I was advocating strongly for its importance. *She seemed to be digging in harder and feeling pressure. Every conversation that involved sex was a personal attack on her. Usually they ended in empty and demeaning threats from her such as “maybe you should just masturbate or find somebody else to have sex with,” both of which would mean a definite end of the marriage.* So, eventually, I just backed off in hopes that something changes.
> 
> I really appreciate your kind, but tough words. What you said is exactly how I feel, but I am attempting to be practical. I am trying to decide whether a dissatisfied sex life with someone I otherwise love and the chance to be around my kids is worth It.


Her reaction to your needs and desires is an arguing tactic that is immature and meant to shame you so she can shut down the conversation and continue to get what she wants. People use it all the time. She doesn't really mean that you should "find somebody else to have sex with"...she would be devastated if you did that, so she shouldn't be saying it at all. She is just annoyed that she has to consider your feelings when it comes to sex instead of only her own, so you have bigger problems than your desire isn't being reciprocated. And she won't even allow you to communicate with her at all about it.

I believe YOU BOTH need to get into marriage counseling together, and you need to stop coddling her when she refuses to care about you or let you express your needs in your sexual relationship.
One thing is certain...if you back off like you are doing, NOTHING will change at all.



WantToPleaseHer said:


> At this point, I think suppressing what I need seems like the best of several bad alternatives.


It's NOT. What you are doing is stepping onto a slippery slope that does NOT lead to more sex or a happy marriage. You are in effect, willing to "castrate" yourself so your wife doesn't feel bad. That's a terrible idea. Your wife is not a child, she's an adult who is supposed to be in an adult relationship where she cares about her husband's needs as much as she cares about her own. 

Also, sharing loving touches is not abusive, so there is NO reason for you to feel like you are harming her by wanting that with her or feeling like you need to protect her from your desire. Your sexual desire is normal and natural and even WONDERFUL.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

Rus47 said:


> Your performance IMO is irrelevant. She is fine with no performance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I appreciate everything you said and believe you are correct. The only disagreement I have is that I think she is happy currently because I have backed and relieved her pressure. Therefore, I am dying inside, but she is so wrapped up in the kids that she doesn’t notice. However, from my reading, you can’t just pretend to desire someone and, if she has to, that isn’t good for her. How to make her understand that my situation is probably unsustainable until I can kill my desire.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

In Absentia said:


> Did she regain her libido after the first child?


She did, but it is taking longer and she is saying things that she never said the first time about how “this just checks a box for me,” “I never even think about sex, ever,” “I won’t ever go down on you again,” and more. So, I think we are just in a different place this time.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

Rus47 said:


> This right here is what you need to banish from your thoughts. Your wife having low libido isn't because you are a failure. Maybe you need to get some activities like working out at the gym or running to get your mind on things other than your crummy sex life. These will build your mind and body independent of what is happening with your marriage. A man needs to have a mission for himself.


I appreciate this.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> I appreciate everything you said and believe you are correct. The only disagreement I have is that I think she is happy currently because I have backed and relieved her pressure. Therefore, I am dying inside, but she is so wrapped up in the kids that she doesn’t notice. However, from my reading, you can’t just pretend to desire someone and, if she has to, that isn’t good for her. How to make her understand that my situation is probably unsustainable until I can kill my desire.


She needs to fully realize that the road she is traveling leads to being a single mother coparenting two little kids. If no sex is what she wants, that is what she will have.

Why are you talking about killing your desire? That is the wrong approach. You are a functioning male who wants sex with your wife. You have to be willing to exit the marriage to save it. And she needs to fully realize that is fact. MC MAY help. One guy on here told his wife he WAS going to have a sex life. And the MC backed him up, Either married to her or divorced with others. Her choice.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Here’s the thing. If you want to go 1-2x a day and your wife’s natural state is 1x a month and maybe she’ll compromise to 1x/week that will not work for you.

Having studied dead bedrooms on various forums for several years now I have the 3:1 rule. If the disparity in desire is at that level or higher the marriage is in crisis.

For example if your natural rate is 7 times a week and she compromised to 1/week; still no good (7:1). For your mind to be right about it you’re going to need to go every other day on average. 

I’m similar to you and when frequency is every other day or better then I don’t think about it. I tracked frequency for several years and stopped a few months ago because I felt it outlived its usefulness.

So if you want to try and find a compromise value I’d start with every other day.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

RebuildingMe said:


> Why post if this is a “crazy place”? All the therapy is the world is not going to make her put out.


That seems pretty harsh for a woman with a 6 month old baby. She should be "putting out" twice a day?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Cmon guys.... the woman has a freaking 4 year old and a 6 month old baby. He should be threatening to exit the marriage with a freaking 6 month old if she doesn't start putting out to his liking?

And she'll be a single parent because of course the parenting will be left to her while he pursues his twice a day sex?

Geez. How about he have a little patience while his 6 month old gets a little older, and how about no more kids?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

lifeistooshort said:


> Cmon guys.... the woman has a freaking 4 year old and a 6 month old baby. He should be threatening to exit the marriage with a freaking 6 month old if she doesn't start putting out to his liking?
> 
> And she'll be a single parent because of course the parenting will be left to her while he pursues his twice a day sex?
> 
> Geez. How about he have a little patience while his 6 month old gets a little older, and how about no more kids?


Who said he should threaten to exit the marriage? I haven't read every response, but I didn't see that in any of the responses yet...?

In fact, I've seen tons of other advice than that.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> Who said he should threaten to exit the marriage? I haven't read ever response, but I didn't see that in any of the responses yet...?
> 
> In fact, I've seen tons of other advice than that.


Someone said he needed to be willing to exit the marriage and that she should realize that she'll be a single parent if she doesn't put out with a baby at home. That seems extreme to me.

I agree that mismatched sex drives need to be addressed for reasonable compromise, I just think the advice given is ridiculous with a 6 month old at home. He's having sex, just not as often as he'd like and she's not into it as much as he wants. Long term that's going to be tough, but were you up for enthusiastic sex daily with babies? I know I wasn't.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> She did, but it is taking longer and she is saying things that she never said the first time about how “this just checks a box for me,” “I never even think about sex, ever,” “I won’t ever go down on you again,” and more. So, I think we are just in a different place this time.


She had a baby 6 months ago. Be more patient and see what happens. With no libido, she is clearly enjoying the mummy role immensely and right now she could do without sex forever. At some point though, if nothing happens, you will have to have the talk.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> She did, but it is taking longer and she is saying things that she never said the first time about how “this just checks a box for me,” “I never even think about sex, ever,” “I won’t ever go down on you again,” and more. So, I think we are just in a different place this time.


So it sounds like she is just done with you. Not sure why but it doesnt really matter. IMO IC is waste of money. She is the broken one, not you. Start the “180” process, insist she get a job. Single people make their own money. Her working will help with spousal support calculations. See an attorney for free consult ti see what Divorce looks like. 



Sorry, there wasn’t anything you could have done to prevent this. But letting it continue won’t improve anything. Get moving forward ASAP. Dont waste any of your one and only life.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Her words and respinse are from someone who is done. She hasnt had sex with him in awhile and is fine with never. She said as much.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

lifeistooshort said:


> Someone said he needed to be willing to exit the marriage and that she should realize that she'll be a single parent if she doesn't put out with a baby at home. That seems extreme to me.
> 
> I agree that mismatched sex drives need to be addressed for reasonable compromise, I just think the advice given is ridiculous with a 6 month old at home. He's having sex, just not as often as he'd like and she's not into it as much as he wants. Long term that's going to be tough, but were you up for enthusiastic sex daily with babies? I know I wasn't.


I don't think he meant that the OP should threaten her with that, he just wanted to point out that it's not only his responsibility, the wife has a responsibility to her marriage as well. There are always going to be "reasons" for not wanting to engage with our partners (sexually, or otherwise) throughout the entire relationship...but it's a dangerous choice to lean on those excuses to avoid caring about meeting our partner's needs, and to either throw out fake solutions to shame our partner into shutting up or refusing to discuss any type of compromise or solution to what our partner feels is a problem for them. She isn't being a partner to him at all sexually.

If this woman loves her children, she will make having a happy husband/father a major priority.

And from the OP's followup comments, it sounds like he's getting sex once a month or less sometimes, and there is no excuse for that except selfishness. She is taking advantage of the fear she put into him with her outbursts. She only cares about herself and being a mother. And that's WRONG for a marriage.

ETA: I definitely agree he shouldn't have more kids with her.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> she is saying things that she never said the first time about how “this just checks a box for me,” “I never even think about sex, ever,” “I won’t ever go down on you again,” and more.


Is she serious when she is saying this? Have you told her how it makes you feel? And if so, what's her reply?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> ETA: I definitely agree he shouldn't have more kids with her.


He's had a vasectomy...


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> Cmon guys.... the woman has a freaking 4 year old and a 6 month old baby. He should be threatening to exit the marriage with a freaking 6 month old if she doesn't start putting out to his liking?
> 
> And she'll be a single parent because of course the parenting will be left to her while he pursues his twice a day sex?
> 
> Geez. How about he have a little patience while his 6 month old gets a little older, and how about no more kids?


He got clipped. She isnt having anymore by him. My wife had four. Two in diapers at once. Never treated me anything like this. Never said any of what his “wife” has said to him.

I suspect she resents him because she had pain after second child.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Rus47 said:


> I suspect she resents him because she had pain after second child.


This is possible. But it sounds like a massive lack of communication if this is the case.


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## Mr. Rocksteady89 (24 d ago)

Rus47 said:


> I suspect she resents him because she had pain after second child.


Possibly some conflicting mindsets about what "role" should come first. Some believe that is parenting first, then being a spouse second. I personally believe that's it's always spouse first. I heard this a long ago and have lived my marriage by it. Be a good spouse first because you can't be a good spouse without being a good parent, whereas it is possible to be a good parent but a bad spouse at the same time. The meaning here is that if you are nurturing and committed to your marriage first, then every other role you have will naturally have a positive benefit from that.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> I really appreciate your post and I truly believe the pain is gone as she is very open about when things hurt. We didn't even have sex for 6 months after our first son due to our lack of understanding about how to help her body. We were better and went slowly this time. The first few times were a little touchy, but she says the pain is gone now.
> 
> The bigger question as you said is how it feels. I do believe that she hasn't enjoyed it to the same degree as before. Can you explain more about how that might feel or how it may be inhibited? Another part of the issue with our sex life, in my opinion, is that no matter how hard I try, she no longer accept a high degree of foreplay. She has never been big on me going down on her, but that is off the table now in all circumstances, which seems like it could be a good solution to our problem. She also won't really touch me anymore, but wants to get straight to it. Lately, she has genuinely enjoyed our time (I can generally tell my her breathing and how she relaxes), but I think it just lacks importance to her. Almost like she is indifferent.
> 
> On the approach, I agree that it is an issue. The odd thing is that I have noticed is that my attempts at initiation are always rejected. However, it almost seems like she has a pressure or tension valve after a few rejections that she eventually decides a day that works for her and will initiate with a "should we go upstairs?" Even then, I would say she is best lukewarm and doing it for me. She usually enjoys herself, but the initiation is from a sense of duty and it is not the same as it used to be. I think on some level that I am concerned that our former relationship is gone (which is with children) and I might need to find a way to better accept this. I understand that you cannot negotiate desire.


Some things to keep in mind. two small children have a way of touching women out. They often cling to mom and need to be held and hugged and such and at the end of the day often she just wants a minute of peace without people wanting to touch her. This may or may not be your wife. With 2 small children often times the demands of the day are more than a person mentally can handle. 

Is she a stay at home mom or does she have a job on top of the other responsibilities?

The good news is I found my libido again but it did take a while. Your wife seems to understand you still desire sex. I'll be honest when I read your first paragraph something in me took it as YOU wanted til the doctor gave the ok and then expected sex but I didn't hear anything about your wife participating in that time line. You see this is a dangerous time. She's not feeling it. She loves you and she wants to participate but this is a time when you can make sex a chore and her feel like you are just one more demand that must be met. You have resentment that you aren't getting enough sex. She has guilt that she isn't doing enough, being enough (maybe). She's tired. Is she breast feeding?

She may also be having some post partum issues as well. So on the oral. One many births come with scarring. Did she deliver vaginally? Well almost all the time there is some amount of tearing. Tearing then leaves scars. scars don't stretch in the same way as regular skin. That is why the tenderness can last a while. I know personally I stopped telling my husband about the pain because I didn't want him to feel bad about sex. It did not increase my enjoyment though or libido. Another thing is while oral is good sometimes not all women enjoy oral and it depends on lots of things. she may also be self conscious. Some women also have trouble turning their brain off so they have trouble relaxing and enjoying sex. Do you two have a time of day that both children are alseep and you are both well rested? People always discount sleep for new mothers because they have a night or two that they didn't sleep good and they powered through it. Well try lack of sleep for 6 months. there is a reason sleep deprivation is actual considered torture.

So what are my recommendations.... First show patience. Second try a vibrator. Third make sure you are getting up at night or allowing her to sleep in. Fourth initiate. Of course if you've had a conversation about you not initiating then you probably need a conversation about the change. Don't initiate when you can see she's tired or busy. Talk with her. Let her know you love her and you love sex and that you are worried she isn't enjoying it. Ask her if the pain has gone away. Ask if it's ok for you to try new things that your want to spice it up a little. Push back when she says stuff like go find someone else to have sex with say.. Hey that's not fair. I love you. I married you and you are the only one I want to have sex with. Let's work to make this better. Talk to me. Also analyze your actions. Are you making her load heavier or lighter? Are you adding guilt and shame or lifting her up? Have you heard what she's saying ? Or are you only hearing rejection and thus not listening to the message?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Mr. Rocksteady89 said:


> Possibly some conflicting mindsets about what "role" should come first. Some believe that is parenting first, then being a spouse second. I personally believe that's it's always spouse first. I heard this a long ago and have lived my marriage by it. Be a good spouse first because you can't be a good spouse without being a good parent, whereas it is possible to be a good parent but a bad spouse at the same time. The meaning here is that if you are nurturing and committed to your marriage first, then every other role you have will naturally have a positive benefit from that.


While I do put my husband before my child..... I've heard this from mostly men my whole life especially after child birth. The thing is the small life that was just born has needs and can't live without them. The grown ass man can take a minute to step back and be a father and loving husband while that life is still so small and demanding. Each person only has so much they can give each day. Some have more than others.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Having that nearly infant, present, is part of the problem.

Hopefully, time will cure the problem.

Yeah.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Who said he should threaten to exit the marriage? I haven't read every response, but I didn't see that in any of the responses yet...?
> 
> In fact, I've seen tons of other advice than that.


I did (kinda). A 6 month old baby it’s all out the window.

This is the OP’s second child, so he does have some experience from the first time.

To be honest though, in a general sense when you have a partner and you approach them for sex and 9/10 it’s a nope, what other remedy is there? Eventually if this persists for a long period of time, what is reasonable with a baby, a year? Two years? I have no idea, but at some point it’s not reasonable and if there’s still nothing in the bedroom there’s only one option if you want to change it. The longer the OP has to think about that idea, the better. It took me years of being stupid before I realized it.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

Mr. Rocksteady89 said:


> Two things stand out and they both come from the above paragraph. First, you may have inadvertently implied to your wife that intimacy was no longer important to you. (at least that this moment). It's very easy for spouses to confuse being understanding with not interested. You have to communicate that sex is still very important to you, but you're willing to temporarily put that need on hold for her. The key word here is "temporarily." However, stopping all physical pursuit for her is not the answer. Nothing will kill her libido faster than not the feeling that she's not desirable. That obviously wasn't your intention, but you may have very well did that. Try to be sensual to her, touch her, let her know how beautiful she is, tell her how much you desire her, and perhaps invite her to be present while you please yourself (takes the pressure off of her). Your pursuit for her may not always end the way you want, but I'd bet you will be more successful than if you were to just wait for her desire to boil over to the point where she rips your clothes off. She might feel that her body has changed a little bit and is hesitant to reveal that side of herself.
> 
> Secondly, this is in regard to comment about the discussions about intimacy. I'd hope that neither of you are accepting the "I'm not feeling, or I don't have desire" excuses and leaving it at that. This is a generalization comment and not aimed directly at your situation, but it surprises me how many marriages have one or both spouses believing that it's totality acceptable to just tell your spouse that you don't feel like it when it comes to intimacy. "I don't feel like it" is literally not acceptable in any other circumstances of marriage. Do you always want to go to work? No, but you still do. Do you always want to run around the house after a toddler? No, but you still do. Do you always want to cook dinner, mow the lawn, take the garbage out, pay bills, or any other tasks that required of you? No, but you still do. The point here is that you or your spouse, absent any physical or mental issues, shouldn't be consistently accepting "I don't feel like it" as an excuse for not fulfilling the desires of your spouse. Find out why you and your spouse don't feel connected or is lacking desire and make an effort together to fix it. Talk about it, be completely transparent, and work at it every day. Don't change your marriage to fit undesirable circumstances. Change the circumstances to fit your desired marriage.


First, I may have over emphasized how much I have stepped away from sex. If anything, I am probably still very affectionate from kisses, hugs, cuddling, and light flirtation. The issue is that none of those things ever lead to sex. So, I have just stopped asking for the most part, but I have let her know that I openly desire her. I like your point and appreciate it. I may need to look at my behavior and how it looks to her.

On your second point, I am completely open for tips on how to get done what you advocate. I believe you are exactly right, but she does believe that she just doesn’t feel like it or she is tired or just not in the mood. So, with consent and hopes for some reciprocal desire, I have no idea how to fix the issue. That is probably why I am here asking you good people for help!


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> I appreciate everything you said and believe you are correct. The only disagreement I have is that I think she is happy currently because I have backed and relieved her pressure. Therefore, I am dying inside, but she is so wrapped up in the kids that she doesn’t notice. However, from my reading, you can’t just pretend to desire someone and, if she has to, that isn’t good for her. How to make her understand that my situation is probably unsustainable until I can kill my desire.


Have you explained this to her, how you feel like you are dying inside? She should know exactly how this is effecting you. That said, I think your desire for 1-2x per day is never going to happen with kids in the house. It just isn't realistic. So if you are serious about that number, then you may be fighting a lost cause. I think if you got to 1-2x/wk of quality sex you would be doing great, but that is a personal decision. 

Have you ever talked to your wife about responsive and spontaneous desire? Would she at least be open to letting you try to get her turned on? And don't be so hard on her having sex with you for you. Obviously no one wants an unenthusiastic partner, but if she is willing to do it for you then let her. I know my wife does this sometimes. There are times when things just happen that don't allow us to be intimate for a few days and she will initiate or give strong signals that she wants me to initiate. Of course sometimes she does this because she is horny, but other times it is because she can sense I need it. She does it for me, participates and ends up enjoying it. I don't see anything wrong with that dynamic.


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## Mr. Rocksteady89 (24 d ago)

Anastasia6 said:


> While I do put my husband before my child..... I've heard this from mostly men my whole life especially after child birth. The thing is the small life that was just born has needs and can't live without them. The grown ass man can take a minute to step back and be a father and loving husband while that life is still so small and demanding. Each person only has so much they can give each day. Some have more than others.


I couldn't agree more. The issue is that many folks negligent their marriage for the sake of their children. My point is that you don't have to. I only have one role in my marriage and that is to be a husband to my wife. That means I do what needs to be done in my marriage including being a teammate when it comes to raising and taking care of our children or rubbing her sore feet after a long day. Yes, time is limited, but the one person that isn't going to be lacking is my wife. She treats me the same way. The key is to always be giving more than is taken. I give what she needs. She gives what I need. The "what" doesn't have to be something that the other values or finds important. It helps when both partners value the same things or have a similar mindset. When couples add children in the mix, they very rarely discuss how that will change the dynamics of their marriage and then are shocked when things change.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

OP, your wife has said a lot of words over the ladt six months. And no doubt you have said a lot too. Words spoken are in the receiver’s head for a lifetime. Some of what you wuoted her saying arent what a lover says to their partner. 

Have any of her words given you any hope that things will ever improve? In a year? In ten?


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

lifeistooshort said:


> That seems pretty harsh for a woman with a 6 month old baby. She should be "putting out" twice a day?


No. 3 times a week is probably a stretch in my wildest dreams.


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## BecauseSheWeeps (10 mo ago)

LisaDiane said:


> Can you explain why you are making HER needs and wants the most important things in your marriage? The best, happiest marriages are where BOTH partners give eachother's needs and wants EQUAL importance, so why would you allow HER needs and wants to matter more than YOURS...?? You are showing her by your attitude and actions that you don't believe that your sexual needs matter in your sexual relationship...so why do you believe that will make her want to care about your needs at all?
> 
> You say that you've tried to lessen your desire for your wife, all so you don't feel resentful that you've given her all the power in your relationship...?? Do you realize what a toxic, damaging attitude that is? You would rather deaden your natural attraction and desire for your most loved partner, than to stand up and assert yourself in your marriage as an equal partner who deserves equal consideration? Is having sexual desire in your marriage so offensive and terrible that you need to erase it? Why are you ashamed that you love and want lots of sex with your wife?
> 
> ...


I agree with this. In the beginning of my marriage - my husband would rarely ever let me try to satisfy him. The focus was always on me and then I would just get bored because am a pleaser as well. We finally got that one figured out.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

lifeistooshort said:


> Cmon guys.... the woman has a freaking 4 year old and a 6 month old baby. He should be threatening to exit the marriage with a freaking 6 month old if she doesn't start putting out to his liking?
> 
> And she'll be a single parent because of course the parenting will be left to her while he pursues his twice a day sex?
> 
> Geez. How about he have a little patience while his 6 month old gets a little older, and how about no more kids?


I have had a vasectomy and I don’t think I have been tough on her. I think I expect to take the brunt of the disparity. I am not going to leave unless something drastic happens. I hope in time, things will change, but recent events do not look promising. I was just seeking any advice I’d how to cope in my situation.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> I was just seeking any advice I’d how to cope in my situation.


IMO you are doing all you can do. With no response except vitriol. You are talking about sonehow reducing your libido to zero to accommodate your wife. It can be done with drugs. It is called chemical castration. Why you would want to do such a thing is beyond me. But it is common for prostate cancer victims because testosterone fuels the cancer.

A poster in TAM @Julie's Husband 
endured it for several months and became what he called a “castrati”. It is reversable.


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## Mr. Rocksteady89 (24 d ago)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> On your second point, I am completely open for tips on how to get done what you advocate. I believe you are exactly right, but she does believe that she just doesn’t feel like it or she is tired or just not in the mood. So, with consent and hopes for some reciprocal desire, I have no idea how to fix the issue. That is probably why I am here asking you good people for help!


Couple questions for you:

Is her lack of desire or "want to" a concern for her? 
Does she "hide" her body away (limited access) from you when she is intimate or when she is without clothes? 
Does her body show signs of response when you're pursuing or performing sensual acts on her (when she does engage)? 
Do you fulfill an equal part of your non-sexual duties in the marriage? I'm not talking about having a job or taking out the trash. I'm talking about giving her an attentive ear to talk to, supporting her, praising her, appreciating her and such. 
Does she talk to you about the future of your marriage? 
Do you or her have down time? (time spent watching TV or any spare time that's spent doing non-essential things) 
Does she have a life outside of the home?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Rus47 said:


> He got clipped. She isnt having anymore by him. My wife had four. Two in diapers at once. Never treated me anything like this. Never said any of what his “wife” has said to him.
> 
> I suspect she resents him because she had pain after second child.


Possibly, and it isn't my intention to suggest his needs don't matter.

It just seems like poor timing to start seeing divorce lawyers with a 6 month old. Everyone recovers differently from childbirth and we all know that the baby years are difficult. Can his needs possibly wait a bit for the kids to get a bit older or is he supposed to go scorched earth with a baby?

It would be really helpful if she'd post here. When my kids were that age I felt fat and exhausted all the time. My ex was an ass but even he understood that sex may be light during that time.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> Possibly, and it isn't my intention to suggest his needs don't matter.
> 
> It just seems like poor timing to start seeing divorce lawyers with a 6 month old. Everyone recovers differently from childbirth and we all know that the baby years are difficult. Can his needs possibly wait a bit for the kids to get a bit older or is he supposed to go scorched earth with a baby?
> 
> It would be really helpful if she'd post here. When my kids were that age I felt fat and exhausted all the time. My ex was an ass but even he understood that sex may be light during that time.


If she would TALK with him, my recommendations would be totally different. Every time he broaches the subject she shuts him down and gets angry. And suggested he either take care of himself or go get sex from another woman. Dangerous suggestion unless she is fine being a single mother of two little kids.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

In Absentia said:


> Is she serious when she is saying this? Have you told her how it makes you feel? And if so, what's her reply?


She just told me it isn’t a priority right now and she does it for me.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> I feel like this is a crazy place to seek advice, but I do have a backup plan with a therapist! I am scheduled to start sessions after the holidays. I have just followed this website for a while and thought I would look for some perspective. Any constructive advice is appreciated.
> 
> My (33M) situation is not some horror story as I have two beautiful sons (4 years and 6 months) and a loving wife (32F). We have been together for 15 years and married for 10. We are often happy, laugh, and have a great time together. The problem is that I do not feel happy with our sex life.
> 
> ...


First line of defense is talking to her. After you state your position, listen to her words but more importantly, listen to the tone of her voice and body language. If she starts crying or seems very stressed when you tell her, that pretty much means she has a lot of **** going on (stress) that you don't know about and at that point, you need to comfort her and help her any way you can and back off.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

Anastasia6 said:


> Some things to keep in mind. two small children have a way of touching women out. They often cling to mom and need to be held and hugged and such and at the end of the day often she just wants a minute of peace without people wanting to touch her. This may or may not be your wife. With 2 small children often times the demands of the day are more than a person mentally can handle.
> 
> Is she a stay at home mom or does she have a job on top of the other responsibilities?
> 
> ...


I’m with my family and too busy to give this the reply it deserves right now, but I really appreciate your perspectives here. I had some follow up questions so if you would check back tomorrow or later today I would appreciate it. I feel like some of the posters have been very honest, empathetic, and understanding of my situation. However, I do not love my wife any less, I just get over my intense feelings of rejection that are deteriorating my mental health. I want to understand her and what she is going through to help, but it is so low on the totem pole of importance that I am going at this alone. I will respond more later, thank you!


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## CrapMan (7 mo ago)

Between dating, living together, and marriage, my wife and I have been together for almost 40 years. I am HD like yourself and she is LD like your wife. It has been decades since she initiated. Sex is just not in the forefront of her mind. She even asked her OBGYN about her low libido.

BUT, she has never refused when I initiate. Her motor does run when I start it. Unlike your wife though, she has never refused BJs even though she does not enjoy it and does try her best to make it enjoyable for me. 

Would I have preferred that she would initiate? Sure. I did discuss with her as well. Marriage is like most life situations being a series of compromises. I decided to compromise my HD to be with my loving, caring, wonderful life partner with LD. I hope you find a compromise that works for both you and your wife.

Edit: I am closer to 70 than 60 and still would want it daily; but, weekly is our compromise. Works for both of us.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> I feel like this is a crazy place to seek advice, but I do have a backup plan with a therapist! I am scheduled to start sessions after the holidays.
> 
> ....... two beautiful sons (4 years and 6 months) ....... We have been together for 15 years and married for 10. We are often happy, laugh, and have a great time together. The problem is that I do not feel happy with our sex life.
> 
> ...


Wow. I am a 73 year old male that has been married to my wife for over 51 years. About a decade ago, I was in a sex starved marriage. I was ready to divorce my wife over the lack of sex, but with the help of a sex therapist who was also a marriage counselor we saved our marriage.

First off, please read the following study:


> The birth of a child has drastic short-term effects on new mothers' sleep, particularly during the first three months after birth. Researchers at the University of Warwick have also found sleep duration and satisfaction is decreased up to six years after giving birth for both parents.


 details on the study

You and your wife have a 4 month old and a 4 year old. Please understand that she is probably exhausted no matter how much you are helping out around the house. You need to cut her some slack, if you really love her and love your children.

Speaking of which you sound like a really "Nice Guy." That was not a complement. If you read Glover's book No More Mr. Nice Guy you will find out that a NG is really a co-dependent man who needs his wife's validation (often through sex) in order to feel good about himself. I suggest you get and study that book. The solution is to "Get a Life" which is code words for finding things and hobbies (best if they include your two children, which will also give your wife some rest) where you can start to feel good about yourself and no longer look to your W for emotional validation. Try getting a jogging stroller for the 4-year old and a backpack for the infant and take up walking or jogging.

As to telling your wife about therapy or not. She is your wife of many years, tell her! Communication is key to a good marriage. She should know. And tell your therapist that you want to work on yourself and your co-dependence and clingy need for sex with your wife as your therapy issue.

As to how do people with low libido's think about sex? They don't that often. You need to understand that to your wife's emotional happiness, sex is not as important to her as it is to you. Does that make you broken and in need of fixing? No. Does it make your wife in need of fixing? No. It just means that the two of you need to get to a place in your lives where you can heal from sleep deprivations and work on your emotional connection.

My libido is much higher than my wife's, but much less than yours. You said something that I find disturbing. You said, *"I will not accept sex that she does not want to participate in (no duty sex*)." If you really mean that, then your marriage is probably doomed. Let me explain. There are no magic drugs or sexual techniques that will change my wife's low libido. So if we (and we have) come to a compromise on sexual frequency that is more than she desires, but acceptable to her and less than I desire, but acceptable to me. There will be times, where she is just not into having sex with me, but she wants to please me, because of her love for me. I had to learn to accept the gift of her body and love, as opposed to rejecting her and making her feel bad because she was not horny enough.

Next you stated, "* I need to find a way to fix the problem or cope..." *Yes you do. The therapy is probably a good idea for you to learn more about yourself and what you should do. In saving my sex starved marriage, I had to learn that clingy men who pressure their wives for sex are absolutely not sexy. Being desperate for *sex *is about as unsexy and you can get. Cheating is absolutely not the solution. Changing your definition of sex, may be a good temporary solution. Find joy in hand jobs, BJ's or other things with your wife. Shift your focus to sensual touch from sexual touch. The sex therapist introduced my wife and I to Sensate Focus exercises to start the process of physically reconnecting in the saving of my marriage. You might look into it when your wife is rested and not overwhelmed. The best coping mechanism you can find is Getting a Life and exercising. Try to figure out a way to do it with your kids so it will provide your wife with a break to rest.

*Finally, you wife is probably exhausted with a 6 month old and 4 year old. *You need to get control over your own sexual needs, communicate with her, not make her feel like she incapable of pleasing you or meeting your needs. The best way is for you to communicate with her and work on separating your desires from your true needs.

Good luck.

P.S. After you have been in therapy a while, ask for a referral for a Sex Therapist, who might see your wife and you together to help work with the two of you on reintroducing guilt free sex into your lives and in working with the two of you on a reasonable compromise (that you said you were looking for) and an ability to explore marriage with more sensual pleasure when sex is not an option.


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## Exit37 (3 mo ago)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> About two months ago, I thought there was a chance to increase our frequency and quality in our relationship. I was advocating strongly for its importance. She seemed to be digging in harder and feeling pressure. Every conversation that involved sex was a personal attack on her. Usually they ended in empty and demeaning threats from her such as “maybe you should just masturbate or find somebody else to have sex with,” both of which would mean a definite end of the marriage. So, eventually, I just backed off in hopes that something changes.
> 
> I really appreciate your kind, but tough words. What you said is exactly how I feel, but I am attempting to be practical. I am trying to decide whether a dissatisfied sex life with someone I otherwise love and the chance to be around my kids is worth It. At this point, I think suppressing what I need seems like the best of several bad alternatives.


Hmm. This is not good, and she should know her position on this is unfair to you. I think your decision to see a therapist is the right one, as he/she might be able to help you get your thoughts together on how to approach this in a constructive manner. I wouldn't go out of my way to tell her why you are seeing a therapist, but if she asks you shouldn't lie to her. See how the first couple therapy appointments go and see how you feel at that point. I hope this works out for you.


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## Exit37 (3 mo ago)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> She did, but it is taking longer and she is saying things that she never said the first time about how “this just checks a box for me,” “I never even think about sex, ever,” “I won’t ever go down on you again,” and more. So, I think we are just in a different place this time.


Wait, she said "I won't ever go down on you again," seriously? Them's fighting words... Make sure you tell your therapist all these details. This sounds a lot like her deciding that she just doesn't have passionate feelings for you anymore, therefore she's just going to put out the minimum. It also sounds like she has given this some thought, and thinks that this is okay. I'm much more concerned after reading the post above.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> Wow. I am a 73 year old male that has been married to my wife for over 51 years. About a decade ago, I was in a sex starved marriage. I was ready to divorce my wife over the lack of sex, but with the help of a sex therapist who was also a marriage counselor we saved our marriage.
> 
> First off, please read the following study:
> details on the study
> ...


Great post....I hope OP takes your advice.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> No. 3 times a week is probably a stretch in my wildest dreams.


As you know, in any negotiation you state your ultimate desires which you stated was 7-14 times a week Her desire is what, once in a month if not zero. The negotiation is both parties moving toward a compromise, not one compromising before the negotiations begin. As @ccpowerslave said anything more than a ratio of three is untenable. So the least you could live with would be twice a week and the most she could tolerate would be every other week. Still a factor of four away from one another even after moving to the limits of the tolerance each of you have.

Before she got pregnant with child number 2, before she decided that sex was off of the table, that oral for either of you was off of the table, that she didn't want you to touch her below the waist, what was the norm for the two of you? 

That would be the rate you ought to insist on it seems to me. It is how things used to be and both of you were happy ( I assume?) So why, from her perspective can't things go back to how they were then? 

If it is medical, then she needs to see a gyno and/or an endo. If you were the one having ED and she was the one wanting intimacy, what would she be expecting YOU to do to fix the problem? It works both ways, if it is going to work at all. 

And time isn't your friend here. Once a person gets familiar with a new pattern, it is harder and harder to change their way of doing things. So the people telling you to "just be patient" for a few more weeks/months/years are just off base IMO. That is just more time wasted and more resentment built in both of you.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> Wow. I am a 73 year old male that has been married to my wife for over 51 years. About a decade ago, I was in a sex starved marriage. I was ready to divorce my wife over the lack of sex, but with the help of a sex therapist who was also a marriage counselor we saved our marriage.
> 
> First off, please read the following study:
> details on the study
> ...


If you read what OP has written, you will see he has already tried some of what you suggested, and she has precluded it. No more oral for either of them. She is ok with no sex of any kind ever. 

As far as the "exhausted" stuff, she didn't tell him, "look the little kids are wearing me out, I don't have the energy to even kiss you, let alone let you go down on me" She hasn't said ANYTHING except to shut him down an dget angry every time he tries to talk to her.

Your wife WANTED to cooperatively fix your marriage. I haven't read anything in OP's posts to indicate his wife gives a sh** about him. He doesn't have anything to work with. So how is expensive and time consuming counseling going to help him at all??


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Mybabysgotit said:


> If she starts crying or seems very stressed when you tell her, that pretty much means she has a lot of **** going on (stress) that you don't know about and at that point, you need to comfort her and help her any way you can and back off.


Or, she is using a common method ( crying ) to get him off of her back and shut the conversation down. Comforting her and backing off just achieves her purpose. So anytime he brings up something she doesn't care to talk about, crying will stop that line of discussion.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Rus47 said:


> If you read what OP has written, you will see he has already tried some of what you suggested, and she has precluded it. No more oral for either of them. *She is ok with no sex of any kind ever.*
> 
> As far as the "exhausted" stuff, she didn't tell him, "look the little kids are wearing me out, I don't have the energy to even kiss you, let alone let you go down on me" She hasn't said ANYTHING except to shut him down an dget angry every time he tries to talk to her.
> 
> *Your wife WANTED to cooperatively fix your marriage*. I haven't read anything in OP's posts to indicate his wife gives a sh** about him. He doesn't have anything to work with. *So how is expensive and time consuming counseling going to help him at all*??


When my wife and I entered therapy, she absolutely did not want to ever have sex with me again.

My wife honestly believed I would not divorce her for anything as unimportant as sex (her words later).

It took the ST to get my wife's attention that divorce was likely. It was only after my wife learned that divorce was not only likely, but a fact with a timeline, that she struggled to commit to saving the marriage. The ST helped her remember that she had once been able to satisfy me sexually and so she could do it again. The ST helped us negotiate a compromise as to sexual frequency. The ST helped through a variety of exercises help us introduce sex back into our marriage. 

So to answer your question about what the costly and time consuming counseling would accomplish? I really don't know in their situation, but in mine it worked wonders and even though it was expensive and time consuming, it was a lot less expensive than hiring two divorce attorneys and far less time consuming.

I agree that the OP sounds like he is pretty close to writing off the marriage and divorcing her, but I am not convinced that is his absolute position. If it is, then he should divorce her and not beat around the bush. However, I am really pro-marriage and would hope he would think about it before he initiates a divorce.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

So Rus is basically right I think.

You can use an inductive argument to postpone “the talk” however long you want. For example if 6 months is too short, 6 months + 1 day, etc… what is the point where it’s not ok?

The point it’s not ok is the point where you’re actually having mental issues and having experienced it myself I can say it WAS mental issues for me. I think I was temporarily nutty.

If you’re at that point then you need to sort it.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

Rus47 said:


> OP, your wife has said a lot of words over the ladt six months. And no doubt you have said a lot too. Words spoken are in the receiver’s head for a lifetime. Some of what you wuoted her saying arent what a lover says to their partner.
> 
> Have any of her words given you any hope that things will ever improve? In a year? In ten?


She has told me that she believes her sex drive will return after she stops breastfeeding. She did express disappointment, however, that I am not being more trusting and confident while she goes through this process that it will return. Hence, why I hell backed off a little bit.

She also said that her lack of sex does not mean she doesn’t feel attracted to me. However, she did get a little upset with me for not trusting her words even though she understands that physical touch and actions are more important for me to feel loved.

So, I may be naive, but I still have faith that she can get through this spell. We have been together a long time and while I am devastated, I am a perpetual optimist. I appreciate your straight forward advice though and I am taking note.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> She has told me that she believes her sex drive will return after she stops breastfeeding.


Ok, so we had one relative who breastfed for two years. I believe the “norm” is one year. So you are in for more of what you now have for 6-18 months more. Are you ok with that? Or will you be a basket case by then?

She was successful in getting you to “back off” by shaming you for “not trusting her”.

At least she gave you a reason. And a conjecture though not a promise of end for your misery. Seems to me she ought to be asking her gyno about that but that is just me. My problem is my wife had twice as many kids with all the things that implies. Breast feeding didnt slow her down a bit. But I realize everyone is different.

Best of luck to you. Am glad am not where you are.


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## Exit37 (3 mo ago)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> She has told me that she believes her sex drive will return after she stops breastfeeding. She did express disappointment, however, that I am not being more trusting and confident while she goes through this process that it will return. Hence, why I hell backed off a little bit.
> 
> She also said that her lack of sex does not mean she doesn’t feel attracted to me. However, she did get a little upset with me for not trusting her words even though she understands that physical touch and actions are more important for me to feel loved.
> 
> So, I may be naive, but I still have faith that she can get through this spell. We have been together a long time and while I am devastated, I am a perpetual optimist. I appreciate your straight forward advice though and I am taking note.


So, does that include trusting her words about "never going down on your again." I mean, she can't have it both ways, you either trust all her words or you trust none. Right? Maybe she is just making this up as she goes, it certainly doesn't sound like she is thinking through any of this. SMH.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

Anastasia6 said:


> Some things to keep in mind. two small children have a way of touching women out. They often cling to mom and need to be held and hugged and such and at the end of the day often she just wants a minute of peace without people wanting to touch her. This may or may not be your wife. With 2 small children often times the demands of the day are more than a person mentally can handle.
> 
> Is she a stay at home mom or does she have a job on top of the other responsibilities?
> 
> ...


So she has a job, teacher, and I believe you are correct about the touched out thing. In fact the neediness of elementary students, whom she is great with, leave very little for me in terms of emotional balance. So, she could be dealing with that, but my only question is that it would seem important to save some energy or at least make the energy for the person you want to spend your life with. I dislike getting blasted for other people’s mistakes and behaviors, but we all have our struggles. I do cut her slack in my mind for this, it is just tough to include everything in a post.

On the timeline, I didn’t ever push or do anything until multiple weeks after the ok from the doctor. In fact, no one even mentioned it. We all knew we would be waiting game. Then, we used the “stretches” we learned from her OB and took that slow. So, she was in charge the whole time, but I know that she felt guilt at various points. She is breastfeeding, which I know makes it harder. I don’t fault her for her low libido, I think the issue is her denial or rejection of its importance to me and the issues it brings up. She is above defensive and almost outright aggressive (see other posts for quotes).

On the oral, I have always offered, but turned down 80+% of the time. So, it doesn’t surprise me that she is not into that at all now. I just thought that kind of foreplay would be good for her situation as it is non-penetrative. This is also where a vibrator would be a no-go as she isn’t into that. That is her response to everyone sexual, why would I want that when I can have the real thing. The goes for the use of mouth, fingers, toys, etc. I think more warmup and more variety would help her, but she is against it.

As for time, I agree that right before bed is the worst time due to tiredness. So far, the only limited success has been immediately once the kids are to bed (usually about 8). If we wait it never happens. Mornings are I have tried right after work before we need to get the kids from daycare. That was a no go. Older son doesn’t nap well at home anymore. Just a mess! 

Of your suggestions, I think me being outwardly patient is critical. As another poster said, I think working on myself and becoming more independent of her is critical. I don’t think it will help my situation with her, but I will have a greater independent streak that will benefit me and get the pressure off of her. If by chance, she does regain her libido, then we can reconnect. Second, vibrators are probably a no go. Third, I wake up with her during the night when she breastfeeds for company and wake up with the kids in the am. Usually wake up around 5, but she can sleep in an hour or two depending on the day. I try to take that one seriously. Fourth, I am convinced by other posters on getting back to initiating. In fact, we both agreed to a rule that I would not be upset if I was rejected and she could be upset if I tried to initiate. I haven’t pushed that yet because I was in the back off stage, but I will start trying more. 

On the questions, I will consider them and I really believe that I have some room to grow as well. I am successful in my career and respected, but I think I can grow in how I interact with my family. The biggest thing being by not needing her, I can free myself from the trap of wanting something that she is unwilling to share. As someone said on here, a desperate man is an unattractive man. Thank you for time!


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Have you explained this to her, how you feel like you are dying inside? She should know exactly how this is effecting you. That said, I think your desire for 1-2x per day is never going to happen with kids in the house. It just isn't realistic. So if you are serious about that number, then you may be fighting a lost cause. I think if you got to 1-2x/wk of quality sex you would be doing great, but that is a personal decision.
> 
> Have you ever talked to your wife about responsive and spontaneous desire? Would she at least be open to letting you try to get her turned on? And don't be so hard on her having sex with you for you. Obviously no one wants an unenthusiastic partner, but if she is willing to do it for you then let her. I know my wife does this sometimes. There are times when things just happen that don't allow us to be intimate for a few days and she will initiate or give strong signals that she wants me to initiate. Of course sometimes she does this because she is horny, but other times it is because she can sense I need it. She does it for me, participates and ends up enjoying it. I don't see anything wrong with that dynamic.


I have never gotten 1-2 times per day, I am just in the mood enough for that. I would be unbelievably excited at 4-7. Could still find a lot of fulfillment at 2-3. If I had to lock in a deal I could probably accept 1-2 and still be somewhat happy. Of course quality matters in all of that as well. I think people got too hung up on my natural desire before being filtered by reality.
I am coming around on the duty initiation as well. Posters have made a strong case.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

Mr. Rocksteady89 said:


> Couple questions for you:
> 
> Is her lack of desire or "want to" a concern for her?
> Does she "hide" her body away (limited access) from you when she is intimate or when she is without clothes?
> ...


1. I think she would like to want to more. She tells me she knows we haven’t done it in a while, which seems to be understanding. However, she doesn’t really care whether or not we do.

2. She does hide her body or her self conscious sometimes. Depends on the time. We started having sex with her bra on because of concerns she had with breastfeeding.

3. She has recently started to push back into me during sex once we get started. The trouble is the dizzying amount of rules. No neck access, only missionary (she asked for doggie twice though), minimal foreplay, doesn’t want to make out too long before, clean up after needs To be quick and immediate, and a few others. Very little dropping of inhibitions and relaxing, although it has happened to a degree.

4. I would say that is where we are really strong.

5. Yes, talk about travel, work goals, retirement plans (long way off). She has no major issues, she just wishes I didn’t try for sex as often.

6.We have some TV shows we watch together after the kids go to bed and she reads some at night sometimes. We can squeeze out a bit more time as well during the weekend.

7. A few friends and does a few activities, but pretty limited. For example, Friday she is leaving all day for a day trip with her mom. So, she gets out of the house.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

lifeistooshort said:


> Possibly, and it isn't my intention to suggest his needs don't matter.
> 
> It just seems like poor timing to start seeing divorce lawyers with a 6 month old. Everyone recovers differently from childbirth and we all know that the baby years are difficult. Can his needs possibly wait a bit for the kids to get a bit older or is he supposed to go scorched earth with a baby?
> 
> It would be really helpful if she'd post here. When my kids were that age I felt fat and exhausted all the time. My ex was an ass but even he understood that sex may be light during that time.


Divorce is not on table at this point or in the future. I understand light in the department, not scorched earth anger.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

CrapMan said:


> Between dating, living together, and marriage, my wife and I have been together for almost 40 years. I am HD like yourself and she is LD like your wife. It has been decades since she initiated. Sex is just not in the forefront of her mind. She even asked her OBGYN about her low libido.
> 
> BUT, she has never refused when I initiate. Her motor does run when I start it. Unlike your wife though, she has never refused BJs even though she does not enjoy it and does try her best to make it enjoyable for me.
> 
> ...


On the surface the responses we get are much different. Could be the differences in the two men or the two women, but I am happy for you.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> ....... I am convinced by other posters on getting back to initiating. In fact, we both agreed to a rule *that I would not be upset if I was rejected and she could be upset if I tried to initiate.* I haven’t pushed that yet because I was in the back off stage, but I will start trying more.
> 
> On the questions, I will consider them and I really believe that I have some room to grow as well. I am successful in my career and respected, but I think I can grow in how I interact with my family. The biggest thing being by not needing her, I can free myself from the trap of wanting something that she is unwilling to share. As someone said on here, a desperate man is an unattractive man. Thank you for time!


I would like to share with you something that took me quite a while to learn. If you are familiar with Chapman's languages of lover, my primary and secondary love languages are touch and words of affirmation. Sexual rejection of my attempt at initiation feels like the opposite of words of affirmation (praise) and so feels like she is "un-loving" toward me. 

What I have taught my wife to do, is to not to do a rejection of my initiation in a "harsh way." Instead she should tell me she loves me, but now is not a good time for her to have sex. She will tell me she loves me; and if at night to go to bed and get some sleep as she has plans for me in the morning or for the weekend if it is close. If she is not in the mood in the morning she will tell me she loves me but that I need to get up and make coffee and that I had better take a nap at lunch or in the afternoon as she has plans for me that night.

In essence her rejections are no, but soon and said with love. That helps a lot, at least for me.

I think you should see if you can't change the bargain you made with your wife, ".....*I would not be upset if I was rejected and she could be upset if I tried to initiate.*......" I think that you each need to be gentle on each other's ego's during these trying times, unless you are a far better man than I am. * Yes, you should not be upset if she rejects your sexual initiation,* but her rejections should not be done with anger or in a way that would cause a fight.

Good luck.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> So she has a job, teacher, and I believe you are correct about the touched out thing. In fact the neediness of elementary students, whom she is great with, leave very little for me in terms of emotional balance. So, she could be dealing with that, but my only question is that it would seem important to save some energy or at least make the energy for the person you want to spend your life with. I dislike getting blasted for other people’s mistakes and behaviors, but we all have our struggles. I do cut her slack in my mind for this, it is just tough to include everything in a post.
> 
> On the timeline, I didn’t ever push or do anything until multiple weeks after the ok from the doctor. In fact, no one even mentioned it. We all knew we would be waiting game. Then, we used the “stretches” we learned from her OB and took that slow. So, she was in charge the whole time, but I know that she felt guilt at various points. She is breastfeeding, which I know makes it harder. I don’t fault her for her low libido, I think the issue is her denial or rejection of its importance to me and the issues it brings up. She is above defensive and almost outright aggressive (see other posts for quotes).
> 
> ...


This is a pretty normal situation, if you ask me. She is in mummy mode. My wife was the same. Once she stops breastfeeding, it will go back to normal. I could not touch my wife's breasts when she was breastfeeding. She was also very conscious about her body. You wife doesn't need sex right now, she has a child to look after and you are basically telling her that sex is more important than that. Also, you have created an unsafe environment for her by not believing her words. She doesn't trust you now. Despite what the others have said, I would set some kind of "deadline" - up to you to decide. After that you have the conversation. If things don't improve, then you are out. Your marriage deserves more time, especially when you have two small children to think about.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Young at Heart said:


> When my wife and I entered therapy, she absolutely did not want to ever have sex with me again.
> 
> My wife honestly believed I would not divorce her for anything as unimportant as sex (her words later).
> 
> ...


When confronted with divorce, my wife agreed to a compromise and a certain frequency. The result? She made me believe that she was happy having sex, when in fact she agreed to it not for me, but to keep the family together. When the kids were old enough, she withdrew from our sex life. This meant that now I was on my own, at 55, when I could have divorced at 43, with much better chances to build myself another life. I am now 59, and have given up on having a relationship. Careful what you wish for by threatening divorce. You push people in a corner and they become desperate.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

Young at Heart said:


> Wow. I am a 73 year old male that has been married to my wife for over 51 years. About a decade ago, I was in a sex starved marriage. I was ready to divorce my wife over the lack of sex, but with the help of a sex therapist who was also a marriage counselor we saved our marriage.
> 
> First off, please read the following study:
> details on the study
> ...


I appreciate the study and I understand the issues with sleep deprivation (all too clearly right now!). 

I feel you are projecting a little too much on me in regards to co-dependent and clinginess, but what you are suggesting is probably the only way to attempt to overcome any problem. If you fail or struggle in one area of life becoming a better and more established person is critical. Despite what I have written and others have posted, I feel safe in saying that I have been fully understanding about her feelings while I have been met with well executed shaming tactics. Communicating on this topic only tends to upset her, hence why I have taken full responsibility for trying to fix it. Which many have pointed out is probably a mistake on my part and not helpful overall.

My issue with therapy issue is that it will be so obvious the issues that I am dealing with that it will likely upset her that I am taking that step. I realize now that I need to tell her, I just need to figure out a way to do it that I can get the help I need and not alienate her.

On her choosing to please me, I have changed my mind based on your post and others. Previously, I believed that accepting that kind of sex would detract from passionate sex and make it feel more like a chore, but you arguments (and others) convinced me it is a necessary component in a long term relationship.

I appreciate the post and your directness. I don’t feel you have everything pegged completely right, but improving myself, while most likely not solving the issue will allow the marriage to survive.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

Rus47 said:


> As you know, in any negotiation you state your ultimate desires which you stated was 7-14 times a week Her desire is what, once in a month if not zero. The negotiation is both parties moving toward a compromise, not one compromising before the negotiations begin. As @ccpowerslave said anything more than a ratio of three is untenable. So the least you could live with would be twice a week and the most she could tolerate would be every other week. Still a factor of four away from one another even after moving to the limits of the tolerance each of you have.
> 
> Before she got pregnant with child number 2, before she decided that sex was off of the table, that oral for either of you was off of the table, that she didn't want you to touch her below the waist, what was the norm for the two of you?
> 
> ...


I honestly never really counted because I was happy. I could have always used more, but it was probably 2-3 times per week. It was more normal and natural. Twice in a day and the next day, but not for another 8 days. But I would say including with a week off for her period, we were looking at roughly looking at 7-8 times a month.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

Exit37 said:


> So, does that include trusting her words about "never going down on your again." I mean, she can't have it both ways, you either trust all her words or you trust none. Right? Maybe she is just making this up as she goes, it certainly doesn't sound like she is thinking through any of this. SMH.


I think these words are just out of anger or being defensive. She has been known to say very hurtful things in arguments or discussions. Not just with me, but with other people in the her/our family. I have learned to stay calm and not provoke or worsen the situation. Ironically, she wasn’t mad during any of these comments. It took her until the last time to even touch me. I’m not sure, how I bring this one up in the future. I just think I need to fight one battle at a time.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

Young at Heart said:


> I would like to share with you something that took me quite a while to learn. If you are familiar with Chapman's languages of lover, my primary and secondary love languages are touch and words of affirmation. Sexual rejection of my attempt at initiation feels like the opposite of words of affirmation (praise) and so feels like she is "un-loving" toward me.
> 
> What I have taught my wife to do, is to not to do a rejection of my initiation in a "harsh way." Instead she should tell me she loves me, but now is not a good time for her to have sex. She will tell me she loves me; and if at night to go to bed and get some sleep as she has plans for me in the morning or for the weekend if it is close. If she is not in the mood in the morning she will tell me she loves me but that I need to get up and make coffee and that I had better take a nap at lunch or in the afternoon as she has plans for me that night.
> 
> ...


How did you get your wife to do this? For my wide, nighttime is the only acceptable time, but she is often tired. I have noticed that while my wife does not let me down as easily as yours or build me up. Sex is more likely to come in the day, or two, or three after I attempt to initiate. So, she must be trying to think about it.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> . I have learned to stay calm and not provoke or worsen the situation.


Walking on eggshells. Ok. So communication is actually not possible. Just read all of the words she said to you. Sad, really sad for you


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

In Absentia said:


> This is a pretty normal situation, if you ask me. She is in mummy mode. My wife was the same. Once she stops breastfeeding, it will go back to normal. I could not touch my wife's breasts when she was breastfeeding. She was also very conscious about her body. You wife doesn't need sex right now, she has a child to look after and you are basically telling her that sex is more important than that. Also, you have created an unsafe environment for her by not believing her words. She doesn't trust you now. Despite what the others have said, I would set some kind of "deadline" - up to you to decide. After that you have the conversation. If things don't improve, then you are out. Your marriage deserves more time, especially when you have two small children to think about.


I’m more in the position of your wife to sacrifice what I need for the boys. I just think it is not a one or the other situation. I accept that everything has changed now and it will take time to return to normalcy, but outright ejection, stonewalling, and shaming does not seem to be the actions of someone who wants to please their spouse.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Rus47 said:


> Walking on eggshells. Ok. So communication is actually not possible. Just read all of the words she said to you. Sad, really sad for you


I don't think the situation is that dire.

Staying calm is good....men who control their outbursts have a leg up on those who don't. And he says she'll usually have sex a couple of days after he initiates so she knows it matters. The rest of the marriage is happy.

She works full tine, has a 4 year old and a 6 month old, and is breastfeeding. She's exhausted all the time and probably doesn't feel well. This time may pass.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> men who control their outbursts have a leg up on those who don't.


What I have read in his posts is the only person NOT controlling outbursts is his wife. And he stated “I have learned”, so this is just who she is, nothing to do with breastfeeding or teaching or being tired. 

All the angry, cruel, words are from HER. Anytime he crosses her. He cannot communicate with her because she responds in a way to shutdown the discussion. So, his only solution is to go talk to an IC, he cant talk to his wife.

When we indulge someone like his wife, we get more of the same disrespectful behavior.

Someone advised him to initiate other than evening so she wouldnt be tired. Guess what, evening is the only time she will do it. Except she is too tired then. 

Someone else suggested toys. Her response is “why would I want that instead of real thing?” Except she doesnt want that either. Oral off of the table fiorever. 

Missionary only allowed position. No touching breasts, keep them covered up. OP wrote all of the rules take all fun out of it. Which is by design. That is what she wants.

Tires me out just reading all crap she is putting him through. Not a loving bone in her body. Feel really sad for him. He is considering chemical castration to be able to stand staying with her. And should hide fact he has been seeing IC to help.

IMO only a very small minority of nursing women treat the baby’s father this way. But it is his life to live. Wish him well in this arduous journry,


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> but outright ejection, stonewalling, and shaming does not seem to be the actions of someone who wants to please their spouse.


That's true...


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't think the situation is that dire.
> 
> Staying calm is good....men who control their outbursts have a leg up on those who don't. And he says she'll usually have sex a couple of days after he initiates so she knows it matters. The rest of the marriage is happy.
> 
> She works full tine, has a 4 year old and a 6 month old, and is breastfeeding. She's exhausted all the time and probably doesn't feel well. This time may pass.


She has always been a little emotionally eratic, but obviously stress and babies only made the situation worse. I came here mostly for help to fix my situation and I think everyone provided quality advice in their own way from the realism that both her and my approach could improve to signs of hope to the fact that the situation is fixable.

Also, I only included information relative to our sexual relationship, we would make great best friends in my opinion if this was not an issue.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Rus47 said:


> What I have read in his posts is the only person NOT controlling outbursts is his wife. And he stated “I have learned”, so this is just who she is, nothing to do with breastfeeding or teaching or being tired.
> 
> All the angry, cruel, words are from HER. Anytime he crosses her. He cannot communicate with her because she responds in a way to shutdown the discussion. So, his only solution is to go talk to an IC, he cant talk to his wife.
> 
> ...


The kind of contempt you're talking about usually manifests outside the bedroom as well. We all know that at least for women sex is an extension of what's going on in the rest of your life. According to him they otherwise have a great relationship.


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## Mr. Rocksteady89 (24 d ago)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> 1. I think she would like to want to more. She tells me she knows we haven’t done it in a while, which seems to be understanding. However, she doesn’t really care whether or not we do.
> 
> 2. She does hide her body or her self conscious sometimes. Depends on the time. We started having sex with her bra on because of concerns she had with breastfeeding.
> 
> ...


I think your wife is experiencing a combination of post pregnancy hormone fluctuations, body image issues and possibly some discomfort with the intercourse. She is probably at a constant battle with her body. Your answer to the first question implies that she would like to want it and it probably frustrates her that her body doesn't respond the way it used to or the way she wants it to. I'd say that her "I don't really care" comments are nothing more than a defensive statements. She may be saying those things to you, but she is also saying them to herself which makes the battle she's fighting within herself less real. 

The answers to questions 2 & 3 confirm my assumption regarding some body image issues. Women are way harder than on themselves than men when it comes to image. The fact that she hides parts of her body from you and gives you restrictions when your intimate means that she is uncomfortable with parts of her body. The limited positions and foreplay are probably a result of her not wanting to "expose" herself for an extended period of time. As I mentioned above, all of this is probably a result of her trying to overcome some internal battles she is having with her body. It's important to note that this probably has nothing to do with you. She wants to fulfill your need for the physical connection and indulge that part of your relationship, but she can't get her body to be completely vulnerable to you. Again, this is not a reflection of you. *It's something that she is battling and will require you to be supportive, but not try to fix it. *I will get to that below. 

I asked question 4 to see if there were any glaring "outside" the bedroom issues that may be affecting your marriage. Since that is an area of strength for your marriage, I have no comments. 

Question 5 was asked to see if she has "checked out" of the marriage. All good there as well. Based on your answer and some of your other comments on TAM is seems that both you are still very much invested in the marriage. 

Question 6 was asked to gauge whether or not you have time in your marriage to prioritize your spouse and vice versa. A lot of couples use the excuse that they don't the time for intimacy since their day is filled with work and children, but interestingly it always seems like those same couples spend hours watching several shows during the week or hours on other non-essential activities. So, my comment here is to not accept "we don't have time" for it because you do have time to prioritize your marriage. It's all about choices. 

The last question was asked to see if she was potentially showing any signs of depression or disconnect. If you told me that she never leaves the house and has completely disconnected herself away from the world outside of your home, I'd say that her battles are wider than self-image. If that were the case, some professional help not TAM would be needed. 

I've had some similar experiences with my spouse and body images issues. She didn't have "rules" for me, but I could definitely tell that she was starting to feel reserved about her body with me. Both myself and my wife are very much into fitness. A couple years ago, we stopped working out for about 6 months. Life got busy and we simply didn't make the time to work out. My wife, during that period of time gained a little weight. She has always had a fit body and I literally couldn't see the weight gain. I'm talking only about 6-10 pounds. I'd always say to her "honey, you're sexy" or that I couldn't see where the gain settled. I was being completely honest. You see though, she could see it. It didn't matter how many times I told her that "I don't notice it" she did notice it. In those moments, she didn't need me to say that I couldn't see it. She needed me to acknowledge that she was upset about it and to do whatever she needed to help her through it. My job wasn't to fix it. It was to support her. How you support her is up to her. I can't answer that. What you do is to gently talk to her about her reservations with intimacy and ask her what does she need from you? She may say a little patience. You can be patient and the same time be working together to get that part of your marriage back to where both of you are happy. You may have to compromise a little bit, but that's okay. No marriage comes with a little give and take. Don't obsess over "why" she is being intimate with you. It very well might be only because she knows you want it, but that's ok. She's committed to your wants and the marriage. Thats's a good thing. Too many people get caught up in the "why" and that creates unnecessary stress in your marriage. In the meantime, when you're intimate with her, be appreciative and make her feel as comfortable as possible. Start to slowly give attention to the areas of her body that she has reservations about. Do this outside the bedroom as well. If the neck is an area that she feels uncomfortable about, then give it light kisses there when you're outside the bedroom. Touch her body and compliment her outside the bedroom without an expectation that it will lead to sex. Always start slow. Non-sexual massages are a great way to help ease her reservations. Tell her how much joy her body gives you, how good it feels, and wear those feelings on your face so she can see what she does to you. She will slowly start to be more vulnerable with you. Start reading her cues that will tell you whether or not it's a good time to initiate intimacy. Trust me, all women have them and they're unique to her, so you won't learn what those are on TAM. And lastly, talk to her. Tell her that you want to learn more about her. And when you're discussing concerns in your marriage, particularly sex, always make "we" statements and never ""you" statements. I'd like if we worked on improving (blank). 

I hope this helps.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> The kind of contempt you're talking about usually manifests outside the bedroom as well. We all know that at least for women sex is an extension of what's going on in the rest of your life. According to him they otherwise have a great relationship.


I think you are onto core issue here. He has shared enough to indicate the relationship is maybe ok as long as he doesnt cross her. But “great”? 

The stress of second pregnancy, breast feeding and hard recovery from delivery is just emphasizing her actual personality. 

Another thought is she is done having kids, so hubby’s “job” is done. She never cared all that much for intimacy anyway, so now she can bow out of that aggravation.


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## WantToPleaseHer (2 mo ago)

Mr. Rocksteady89 said:


> I think your wife is experiencing a combination of post pregnancy hormone fluctuations, body image issues and possibly some discomfort with the intercourse. She is probably at a constant battle with her body. Your answer to the first question implies that she would like to want it and it probably frustrates her that her body doesn't respond the way it used to or the way she wants it to. I'd say that her "I don't really care" comments are nothing more than a defensive statements. She may be saying those things to you, but she is also saying them to herself which makes the battle she's fighting within herself less real.
> 
> The answers to questions 2 & 3 confirm my assumption regarding some body image issues. Women are way harder than on themselves than men when it comes to image. The fact that she hides parts of her body from you and gives you restrictions when your intimate means that she is uncomfortable with parts of her body. The limited positions and foreplay are probably a result of her not wanting to "expose" herself for an extended period of time. As I mentioned above, all of this is probably a result of her trying to overcome some internal battles she is having with her body. It's important to note that this probably has nothing to do with you. She wants to fulfill your need for the physical connection and indulge that part of your relationship, but she can't get her body to be completely vulnerable to you. Again, this is not a reflection of you. *It's something that she is battling and will require you to be supportive, but not try to fix it. *I will get to that below.
> 
> ...


It helps a lot. Thank you!

I will try to engage her to talk to me about body insecurities and what I can do to support her if that is true. You are right that I cannot fix it, but whether it is eating better or working out together as we started this before the holidays, but were derailed by the holidays. 

I agree completely agree with the tv thing. It isn’t that there is no time, but no time for that. That is why we must prioritize us time right away after the kids are down or it doesn’t happen. She says that she enjoys that time together and wants that more than the more exciting stuff. We even started to answer a series of questions to connect again from different categories (Romance, Fun, etc.). Point being there is time for it, but not energy or desire.

I really appreciate your post and will try to engage her in these ways. I feel she has not been very respectful or caring toward me, but I am glad to have some ideas on avenues forward to help us overcome.

The last thing I think I need to be better about is when to communicate because when she is tired, the results can be somewhat volatile. Therefore, finding the right times to address any of these issues will be key.


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## Mr. Rocksteady89 (24 d ago)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> It helps a lot. Thank you!
> 
> I will try to engage her to talk to me about body insecurities and what I can do to support her if that is true. You are right that I cannot fix it, but whether it is eating better or working out together as we started this before the holidays, but were derailed by the holidays.
> 
> ...


I will end with one last comment. Her disrespect and lack of caring might be coming from a deep subconscious jealousy that you aren't experiencing the same physical effects of the childbirth. She might be a little resentful that you are so easily pleasured whereas I imagine (as mentioned in my previous comment) her body is fighting her. That doesn't mean that disrespect or lack of care is acceptable. Marriage isn't 50/50 like most say. It's 100/100. Best of luck to you.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

WantToPleaseHer said:


> *How did you get your wife to do this?* For my wide, *nighttime is the only acceptable time, but she is often tired*. I have noticed that while my wife does not let me down as easily as yours or build me up. * Sex is more likely to come in the day, or two, or three after I attempt to initiate*. So, she must be trying to think about it.


I have made a point of trying to be the adult in the room with my wife. The sex therapist that saved our marriage, when we were both about 60 years old, told me one time that my very mature wife reminded her and acted like a rebellious teenager at times. That comment helped convince me to change my attitudes toward her.

So, yes, I also stay far away from the bedroom when I talk to her about sex or our intimacy. I have spent a long time trying to convince her that for me I need sex with her for a feeling of intimate closeness and emotional bonding. She always use to say I just wanted sex because it felt good to me. It took a while, but she now refers to it as making love, which I take to mean she understands my needs better, as that is what it really is to me.

So how did I get her to let me down more easily and indicate future desire? Well that took a while also. She understands Chapman's 5 LL. When I have been rejected, I accept it without trying to show emotion. Sometimes I might tell her she is going to miss out, as I would have made sure she enjoyed herself. Most times I have just said that is totally understandable or said later is fine. 

Your wife probably appreciates you handling it without getting upset and so feels later that she needs to say yes in a day or so. I think my wife feels the same way. What I have convinced her to do is by relating it to Chapman's 5 LL and telling her how I would prefer her rejection of my sexual advance in a clam adult way. If you talk to your wife and really explain things, often times she will understand and try to accommodate you, especially, when she may feel a bit overwhelmed and guilty at saying no. Just talk to her and ask her to help you by saying no in a way you can better handle. It is asking a close friend a favor. It is also showing her there are better ways to do things.

Yes, I think that making love in the morning when everyone is rested is better. If you wife is into intimacy at night perhaps you can arrange for or get her to take a nap in the afternoon, if she is not working. Alternately, figuring out a way so she can get an afternoon nap on the weekend while you take care of things, might allow her to be rested enough at least on the weekends. 

Another thing that I do is prior to foreplay, I spend a good 20 to 30 minutes massaging her back and cuddling with her. Only after she is really relaxed will I initiate foreplay. This is because she needs to put herself into a zen-like state with nothing on her mind to have a orgasm. The cuddling, massage, relaxation, followed by foreplay allows her to orgasm almost all of the time. Then I get to enter her and enjoy feeling incredibly close to her during my orgasm. Afterwards we cuddle some more until we fall asleep or have to get up if it is the morning. If at night my wife is aroused without orgasming she has a hard time getting to sleep. Cuddling and massage can help then as well.

Oh and sometimes if she is really tired, the massage and cuddling will cause her to fall asleep. Not often, but when it does, I let it happen and just tell her how much having her cuddle with me helps with my emotionally bonding to her.

Good luck to you and your wife. As you have said, what works for me may not work for you, but at least it provides you with some options to try.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Rus47 said:


> What I have read in his posts is the only person NOT controlling outbursts is his wife. And he stated “I have learned”, so this is just who she is, nothing to do with breastfeeding or teaching or being tired.
> 
> *All the angry, cruel, words are from HER. Anytime he crosses her. He cannot communicate with her because she responds in a way to shutdown the discussion.* So, his only solution is to go talk to an IC, he cant talk to his wife.
> 
> When we indulge someone like his wife, we get more of the same disrespectful behavior.....


When at the lowest in my sex starved marriage, my wife would pick fights with me to regain emotional distance. If I did something that made her feel romantic toward me, she would say something to pick a fight. After over 38 years of marriage she knew all my "emotional hot buttons."

I finally put it together one night at a dinner when she started to say horrible things to me in a restaurant. I decided that "it takes two to fight" and I didn't want to play her game. I looked at her, smiled, and asked her why she would say such a thing to me. She had a "deer in headlights moment." She asked me what she had said. I told her. She apologized and said she didn't know why she would say such a thing. I forgave her and continued as if it had not occured at all. 

I honestly believe it was her subconscious that was picking a fight with me and she was mentally on autopilot in wanting to remain emotionally distant. I learned that night to not let her bait me into fighting with her. For it to work, I had to accept the bait and get angry. If I didn't she would not get the emotional distance she was looking for, but would also understand she was the troublemaker.

As long as I could remain calm, her old way of manipulating me would no longer work. She realized that she needed to treat me differently. I viewed that as an improvement.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> When at the lowest in my sex starved marriage, my wife would pick fights with me to regain emotional distance. If I did something that made her feel romantic toward me, she would say something to pick a fight. After over 38 years of marriage she knew all my "emotional hot buttons."
> 
> I finally put it together one night at a dinner when she started to say horrible things to me in a restaurant. I decided that "it takes two to fight" and I didn't want to play her game. I looked at her, smiled, and asked her why she would say such a thing to me. She had a "deer in headlights moment." She asked me what she had said. I told her. She apologized and said she didn't know why she would say such a thing. I forgave her and continued as if it had not occured at all.
> 
> ...


As near as I can tell, OP doesn't engage in arguments with his wife. When she says cruel things, he just backs off. He said himself "I have learned", meaning she has trained him well. Maybe he is afraid of her, who knows. He said she had a towering temper and she employs it to get her way? 

We all have known people like that. In my case it was some characters where I worked that used that method to dominate their fiefdom. IMO, OP's wife isn't like yours at all. 

Anyway, hope it all works out for him somehow, without him having to go the chemical castration route to "stay for the kids". I feel really sorry for what his dear wife is putting him through, just because she is a mommy now. I contend as long as he puts up with it he will get a lot more of the same and worse.


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## Exit37 (3 mo ago)

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't think the situation is that dire.
> 
> Staying calm is good....men who control their outbursts have a leg up on those who don't. And he says she'll usually have sex a couple of days after he initiates so she knows it matters. The rest of the marriage is happy.
> 
> She works full tine, has a 4 year old and a 6 month old, and is breastfeeding. She's exhausted all the time and probably doesn't feel well. This time may pass.


Being calm to ensure you don't escalate the situation when she is angry and saying hurtful things, which he says she has quite a history of, is fine and I agree with that. But the issue appears to be that he never holds her accountable for those things she says, therefor she has no incentive or inclination to change her behavior. And I'm of the opinion that when a man regularly keeps quiet when his wife treats him that way, she will eventually lose respect for him, and find him less attractive. And it becomes a vicious cycle, potentially ending in a DB or near DB situation like this one.

It's okay to go along without the sex for a while, as he has a small child and his wife is in hyper mom mode. But he cannot let her get away with the disrespect. In fact, that could actually be part or all of the reason for this issue as I said above.

And hey, I could be completely wrong about that last part, and the reason she doesn't want sex has nothing to do with it. But I'd bet I'm not wrong about her lack of respect followed by his lack of action becoming a vicious cycle that is damaging their marriage.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> Or, she is using a common method ( crying ) to get him off of her back and shut the conversation down. Comforting her and backing off just achieves her purpose. So anytime he brings up something she doesn't care to talk about, crying will stop that line of discussion.


I was assuming she's not a teenager and behaves like an adult.


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