# The DMZ of SEX!!!



## DisappointedHusband (Dec 1, 2011)

I know I can not be the only husband out there that feels like he has to enter a battlefield/minefield/barbed-wire/thorns/ect... to get sex from the wife. 

I'm always the initiator and I'm tired of it. I stopped trying about 6 months ago and she seems to be semi-fine with that meaning she is still not initiating, but now I get more of the "you don't think I'm cute anymore" or "you used to be so romantic." 

The first year or two of our marriage, there wasn't any complaints. Then it started to take more and more time to make my intents known and for her to "give in" or reject and roll over to sleep (usually mad that I tried to have sex with her). 

I'm very sexual and have had to resort to manual stimulation to ward off my needs in hopes not to "inconvenience" her into having sex. 

Funny thing is after my hour or so of cuddling and my advances have won out and we have sex, it is usually good for both of us and she often thanks me for being persistent. But I tire of this routine. 

Anyone out there experience something similar or have any advice as how to make the act of seduction and sex with my wife not like crossing the DMZ to get into North Korea?


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

"I knew my sex life was in trouble when I came to bed one night and discovered my wife had installed a shark cage on her side."

-Dennis Miller


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## DisappointedHusband (Dec 1, 2011)

hahaha, great Dennis Miller quote. I'll have to steal it and add it to my email signature block. But yeah that's about sums it up, lol!


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Your frustration is common. That's because women are biologically wired to respond to the advances of men. They're not programmed to be the initiators. So, in the interest of your sanity, give up the notion that you will come home from work one day and your wife will greet you at the door dressed only in Saran Wrap. It just ain't going to happen.

You need to start leading your wife toward sex. Not coming to the gates of sex and respectfully knocking until she opens up or sends you away. You need to start turning sex from a default "no" unless she says "yes", to a default "yes" unless she says "no". So start scheduling sex. It's not romantic, but it's effective.

Inform her earlier in the day that you want to do X or Y that evening. If she balks, respond that it's fine, you'll just wait until tomorrow. If she balks again, she looks unreasonable.

Check out Athol Kay's website at Married Man Sex Life and buy his Primer. It's pure gold.


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## DisappointedHusband (Dec 1, 2011)

Just finished browsing the link you suggested and I must say it looks promising, but just in glancing I am skeptical that all women particularly my wife would react in the manner website suggests to the recommended tactics and strategies. I just say this because I've tried some of these before with no luck, but I will give it a read and see if my approach needs some work. Thanks


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Most newbies to game, known as AFCs (average, frustrated chumps ) think it's about a short-term strategy of manipulation. It's really not. It's a long-term personality shift.

There is nothing you can say, or do, on Friday night to make your wife suddenly horny for you when you spend Monday through Thursday killing her attraction for you by acting the wrong way.

And all women won't respond to Athol's strategies, just most of them. And the funny thing is, most of them are completely ignorant of their wants and needs. They think they need a sensitive man when the reality is that their husbands are already too sensitive.

Your initial post sounded like you're a classic, married AFC with too much beta and too little alpha. I've been there, man. Add some alpha and I'll bet dollars to donuts your wife starts responding more positively to you.


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## Wantsmore (Sep 13, 2011)

DisappointedHusband said:


> I know I can not be the only husband out there that feels like he has to enter a battlefield/minefield/barbed-wire/thorns/ect... to get sex from the wife.
> 
> I'm always the initiator and I'm tired of it. I stopped trying about 6 months ago and she seems to be semi-fine with that meaning she is still not initiating, but now I get more of the "you don't think I'm cute anymore" or "you used to be so romantic."
> 
> ...


Seriously? That describes my wife to the letter. 

Sometimes I will spend over an hour to get the engine purring so to speak. Then if I get no response, which is usually the case. I get the why didn't you finish what you started the next morning, you get me all worked up then don't do anything. Well sorry but after an hour playing with it and getting no real reaction I figure WTF and go to sleep.

Or I let her know I want it really bad earlier on in the day to get her expecting sex later on. Only to have her say something like oh I just want to go to sleep I am so tired. 

I know exactly what you mean. I even went to far as to not sleep in the same bed as her for 2 weeks to prove a point. She still didn't really get it.


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

Stop thinking about sex as a period of time in the bed. Be less results oriented.

Start thinking of it as an ongoing, all day, every day, process.

Lots of kisses, lots of hugs, lots of grabbing her butt as she walks by, be playful. Push her out of the comfort zone she has built. Make her feel like your all gushy in love with her at the same time your eyeing her like a cat looking at a canary.

You said this:

_*Funny thing is after my hour or so of cuddling and my advances have won out and we have sex, it is usually good for both of us and she often thanks me for being persistent. But I tire of this routine.*_ 

Stop doing advances for an hour and try doing it for a day, or a week before you try to close the deal. Tease her, get her all spooled up, have some fun outside the bedroom.

Act like you did when you were first together. Then she will respond like she used.

Re-read your own post, you answered your own questions.


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## DisappointedHusband (Dec 1, 2011)

I often try to think what was different back in the beginning as far as the way I pursued her or attracted her. I'll try your long game, Start Monday with objective of sealing the deal on Friday. If it works sooner than good for me. 

I'm trying to get her motivated to play more of an active sexual role, so getting back to the basics should work as they did in the beginning, right? Well, I'll give it a try.

Hard to be optimistic after so much trying and rejection, but I'm game.


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

Also, stop taking matters in hand (so to speak) for a couple of weeks. 

Let a little frustration work for you. Get hungry. Get that look back in your eyes. It's OK to let the inner caveman come out and play once in a while.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> Most newbies to game, known as AFCs (average, frustrated chumps ) think it's about a short-term strategy of manipulation. It's really not. It's a long-term personality shift.
> 
> There is nothing you can say, or do, on Friday night to make your wife suddenly horny for you when you spend Monday through Thursday killing her attraction for you by acting the wrong way.
> 
> ...


Man of wisedom PHT (minus the not wanting sensitive h lol)!!!! It's not that hard to figure us out...(at least most of us) Believe it or not we are actually quite simple creatures...it doesn't take too much to make us horny...just think back to when you were dating or just married...the simple things you did that just made the SO jump you! I think that every h should read the Married Man...It's just pure simple common sense stuff!!!! On my way to buy it for my h now!!!:rofl:


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## Wantsmore (Sep 13, 2011)

For what it is worth, I do exactly what all these women on here say to do through out the day. You are all full of it so to speak.

I touch, kiss, wink, flirt and do house work and all the other nonsence and still have to play around for an hour to get her to warm up. 

So next suggestion....


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

Wantsmore said:


> For what it is worth, I do exactly what all these women on here say to do through out the day. You are all full of it so to speak.
> 
> I touch, kiss, wink, flirt and do house work and all the other nonsence and still have to play around for an hour to get her to warm up.
> 
> So next suggestion....


Is it really so difficult to play for an hour to get her to warm up?

Seriously, are you in that much of a rush?

Enjoy the play, relax, stop looking at the end result and enjoy the journey.

Tease the heck out of her for a week without putting yourself into the equation and see what happens. 

We, as men, spend so much time getting there, then want to be done so fast. Slow down, enjoy the play. If it takes an hour to warm her up, then do two hours or four hours......

It it's just about the end result, you can do that yourself.


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## randomtxguy (Sep 24, 2011)

To the OP, I feel your pain!!

My W is exactly the same, but instead of a DMZ, it's been the Great Wall of C**K Block. We just put all of our cards on the table and had a mature adult conversation. The result, we're both working on our "problems" I'm abstaining for a month (2 weeks in, only one slip up), and she's supposed to be upping her frequency solo. We're supposed to check up on each other tomorrow, so we'll see how things go.

Good luck to you, and know that you have some company out there.


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## Wantsmore (Sep 13, 2011)

Mistys dad said:


> Is it really so difficult to play for an hour to get her to warm up?
> 
> Seriously, are you in that much of a rush?
> 
> ...



Ahh, no I think you completely missed the point. An hour of playing around AND YOU GET TOLD NO NOT TONIGHT! Or she just will lay there and not move, like she is completely asleep. I think you need to read the post again.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Wantsmore said:


> For what it is worth, I do exactly what all these women on here say to do through out the day. You are all full of it so to speak.
> 
> I touch, kiss, wink, flirt and do house work and all the other nonsence and still have to play around for an hour to get her to warm up.
> 
> So next suggestion....


I see a wife playing dead for an hour while you kiss/tickle/rub/etc. as a fitness test. Yes, women need foreplay and warming up more than men. However, your wife should be a partner in sex. And that includes foreplay.

So don't be afraid to call her out on it. Don't be afraid to get angry and express that to her. Rather than working your tail off until she gives you the yes you want, which rarely happens, assume the yes and start going until she gives you a no.

And couple that with Athol's suggestions on adding alpha traits.


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## Chuckp47 (Nov 11, 2011)

Sorry but why does it need to be a game? Why the big deal? Why do some women feel that it is something they can dole out like dog treats? 
When I was trying all of this my biggest frustration wasn't that I was putting all of this effort in and was still getting excuse after excuse. It was that I felt she was wasting it, wasting me. You can't have sex when you're dead and here is someone who would rather have sex with you than anything in the world and youd rather "turn in early". Over the years I have been lied to, decieved, and mistreated all for her to get out of having sex. My breaking point on the sex thing was a few weeks ago when she had a dr.s appt to "fix" whatever was broken. This appointment had to be made 6 months in advance. On the day of the appointment she went only to find out she didn't actually have an appointment, had to make another one for spring... Oops! Haha. Sorry honey. I told her to please not go to any more effort, that if she was happy being assexual, I'd make due. 
Then I realized that over the years I could only remember us having sex ONE time while on vacation. One time over years of trips to the beach. Had to admit to myself that if I was honest it was never all that great to begin with, even in the early years. Would I have been better off years ago cutting my losses and finding someone more sexual? Yeah, lots.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

Another "Married Man Sex Life" disciple here. I just read the book and am just getting started at this new concept. You really need to read the book to gain all of the concepts. It used to really bother me that my wife does not initiate all that often. I also read similar things in another book I highly recommend, "The Couple Checkup".

Sex just is not at the front of most women's thinking like it is for a man. So I am beginning to take the total lead. There are times because of preoccupation, tiredness, or pain that she is kinda ho-hum about it. Once I get started though most of the time she really gets into it and has a great orgasm (that sometimes even surprises her).

The other thing I am doing, with her encouragement, is going ahead if she does not want an orgasm. That used to bother me, but if she says, "Here is my warm pu$$y, have some fun...I am going to!

I should also mention that we have a fantastic relationship in every area. (BTW, got married at 16 & 17 and married for 39 years so we have been at this for a while!)


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Throughout many of the posts in this thread with several different posters, there is a thick layer of resentment coming through. More than likely your wife feels that and has the same thing pumping through her veins.

_“Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.” ~ Malachy McCourt _

Until you can willingly throw out the poison of resentment within yourself, you won't be able to move forward and neither will your wife be able to. 

Best wishes to you all.


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## randomtxguy (Sep 24, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Throughout many of the posts in this thread with several different posters, there is a thick layer of resentment coming through. More than likely your wife feels that and has the same thing pumping through her veins.
> 
> _“Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.” ~ Malachy McCourt _
> 
> ...


Enchantment,

You're right, there is a lot of resentment, but it takes some cooperation from your partner to really get past that. Granted, you can try to alleviate the symptoms and do your best not to act as if you're harboring resentment, but it won't go away until the problem causing it is fixed. Venting has always helped me with this, and what better place to vent than on a board? Thanks for pointing this out, and guys, hang in there.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

Might be best to read the other post the OP has as well. Then put the two together.


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

Do you think your attitude on the matter has led to a self-fulfilling prophecy of GateKeeper-ism from your wife? Because your posts are filled with it.

Realise this: Your wife wants/ enjoys sex just as much as you. 

Generally sex is an indication of how well other aspects of the relationship are going.

I would highly suggest you put sex on the back burner and focus more on the needs of your wife before you continue any bedroom pursuits.

Stop wanting sex to get sex.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Most newbies to game, known as AFCs (average, frustrated chumps ) think it's about a short-term strategy of manipulation. It's really not. It's a long-term personality shift.
> .


So therefore it's a _long term _strategy of manipulation?:rofl:

Sorry, couldn't resist!


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> So therefore it's a _long term _strategy of manipulation?:rofl:
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist!


In a marriage, it's not about manipulation at all. It's about identifying the traits that your wife is attracted to and shifting your attitudes and behaviors to match those traits.

Why that is seen as sinister is beyond me. It seems to me to be cruel and certainly counter-productive to say, "My wife is attracted to traits X, Y, and Z. However, my current disposition makes me reluctant to display those traits. If I were to change my disposition to make me more likely to display those traits, I would be manipulating my wife into happiness and sex. I should probably keep displaying the traits she isn't attracted to in order to be more 'honest'."


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## feeling lost (Oct 17, 2009)

I think your desciption of the DMZ is so apt.

I have been without sex for the last 14 years and I feel for you.

Don't ask me for an answer though - I am looking for an answer myself


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

some giving advice about how to coerce sex from your wife make me think that sex serves a purpose. like the dog treat analogy, its part of a large strategy of behavior modification. you want sex, you have to act this way, but if you vary from the behavior i reserve the right to withdrawl sex. if you dont meet her vision of the perfect combination of alpha/beta behavior then sex dwindles or dissappears


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> In a marriage, it's not about manipulation at all. It's about identifying the traits that your wife is attracted to and shifting your attitudes and behaviors to match those traits.
> 
> Why that is seen as sinister is beyond me. It seems to me to be cruel and certainly counter-productive to say, "My wife is attracted to traits X, Y, and Z. However, my current disposition makes me reluctant to display those traits. If I were to change my disposition to make me more likely to display those traits, I would be manipulating my wife into happiness and sex. I should probably keep displaying the traits she isn't attracted to in order to be more 'honest'."


I think it's a matter of perception - as you frame it it isn't the least bit sinister or manipulative. But if you frame it as "find out what your wife likes and exhibit those behaviours to get into her knickers, then go back to "normal" the rest of the time, it sounds rather different.

I think framing it from the "game" perspective, where the entire rationale is to manipulate women into sleeping with you for your benefit alone, doesn't help to sell the idea as being non-manipulative and mutually satisfactory


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> I think it's a matter of perception - as you frame it it isn't the least bit sinister or manipulative. But if you frame it as "find out what your wife likes and exhibit those behaviours to get into her knickers, then go back to "normal" the rest of the time, it sounds rather different.


I suppose it would be manipulative to exhibit behavior A when you were horny, and then revert to behavior B when you weren't. But I've never seen anyone advocate that. Is that your perception of Athol Kay's advice? If so, you completely misunderstand. The strategy of situational behavior in order to manipulate your wife might work for a week or two. However, wives will quickly see through such manipulation. It just wouldn't work in the long-term. That's why nobody suggests it.



Sawney Beane said:


> I think framing it from the "game" perspective, where the entire rationale is to manipulate women into sleeping with you for your benefit alone, doesn't help to sell the idea as being non-manipulative and mutually satisfactory


It gets framed in the "game" perspective because the pick-up artists were the first to popularize the idea of exhibiting the traits that women are attracted to. That's the "game".

PUAs (pick-up artists) sometimes give out little tips or "canned routines" that could be seen as manipulative. However, they mostly advise that as a crutch until you've integrated alpha traits into your personality. They all suggest consistently behaving in a manner that is attractive to women.

And it is true that most PUAs don't espouse marriage. However, I've never seen one suggest that one should falsely commit to a woman in order to sleep with her. That would be truly manipulative. Changing hobbies from video games to mountain biking in order to take women on mountain biking dates so that more of them will want to sleep with you does not strike me as being manipulative.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I suppose it would be manipulative to exhibit behavior A when you were horny, and then revert to behavior B when you weren't. But I've never seen anyone advocate that. Is that your perception of Athol Kay's advice? If so, you completely misunderstand. The strategy of situational behavior in order to manipulate your wife might work for a week or two. However, wives will quickly see through such manipulation. It just wouldn't work in the long-term. That's why nobody suggests it.
> 
> 
> It gets framed in the "game" perspective because the pick-up artists were the first to popularize the idea of exhibiting the traits that women are attracted to. That's the "game".
> ...


FWIW, I don't have a dog in this fight, so I could care less what PUA's suggest. My point was that it _can_ be seen as / sold as manipulative by people who want to see it / sell it that way. 

As far as falsely commiting to get a woman to sleep with them, my understanding is that if it needed that, a PUA would try to PU someone else. To add another TLA, it would be TMA*:rofl:


TMA: Too much aggro (descriptor of a job not worth the effort)


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

DisappointedHusband said:


> I know I can not be the only husband out there that feels like he has to enter a battlefield/minefield/barbed-wire/thorns/ect... to get sex from the wife.
> 
> I'm always the initiator and I'm tired of it. I stopped trying about 6 months ago and she seems to be semi-fine with that meaning she is still not initiating, but now I get more of the "you don't think I'm cute anymore" or "you used to be so romantic."
> 
> ...


Yes, I have experience and advice.

A man wanting more sex, start with this:

Stop complaining about being the initiator. A man behaving masculine, he will be an initiator most all of his sex life. 

Trick is, the initiating is often grossly misunderstood. 

The initiating is not equal to mere foreplay, or being nice, or doing housework, or ever asking or begging for sex.

It starts with the man setting his own goals, his own expectations, taking care of HIMSELF, leading an interesting life with fun, mystery, and a good bit of mischief, and inviting his woman into this life to share physically and emotionally. 

That is initiating.

Then if any man is not finding his woman is not receptive to his advances, or non the less trying to seduce him when these are in place, then he knows without a doubt something is not in place.

Do not over analyze this!

Put these things in place FIRST, but then most importanty do not be afraid or timid to boldy and without apology communicate in action and behavior that sexual relations as a passion, a desire, yet an expection, and a requirement in your marriage, and set that tone.

Barring physical sickness, in my own marriage sex is as frequent as I, or either of us of course, require it. 

Call that a boundry if you will.

Yes, sometimes sex is for my benefit or pleasure only, vast majority of the time it is not. 

Even at times it is more selfish on my part, I make no apology. Attitude counts. 

My wife has expressed numerous times she extremely enjoys being ravished even when she "resists", and more than once when I have "taken her", that after the fact, even for many days she is aroused and even pleasures herself with the thought of being "taken". 

It is quite a common fantasy for women, so all good men reading this, do not be negligent in putting in place your own relationships the pieces to allow these fantasies to become the reality for BOTH of you (masculine dominance, boldness, playful mischief, safeword, etc).

Good men, understand this, your women love sex, want sex, and want to be vulnerable and even ravished by their man.

But understand, they must FEEL and EXPERIENCE being desired by a man, that has already put in place these things, that he is a man confident and bold, worthy and safe and sensual for her to be unleashed the sexual devil inside her, and in his strength and desire for her to open to be emotionally vulnerable to.

None of this is "manipulation", it is simply a very ancient dance performed since the dawn of time, a primal dance with a language and elegant structure all it's own, that we call our sexual nature.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> My point was that it _can_ be seen as / sold as manipulative by people who want to see it / sell it that way.


That really doesn't matter to me. I can see/sell dog piss as the cure to cancer. That doesn't mean it is. What counts is the reality behind the perception.



Sawney Beane said:


> As far as falsely commiting to get a woman to sleep with them, my understanding is that if it needed that, a PUA would try to PU someone else. To add another TLA, it would be TMA*:rofl:
> 
> 
> TMA: Too much aggro (descriptor of a job not worth the effort)


Absolutely. Manipulation isn't an effective strategy. It's TMA, as you said. A much better strategy is to figure out what your wife thinks is sexy, and then be that. No manipulation required.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> No manipulation required.


Except on yourself


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## Heather858 (Dec 5, 2011)

"I knew my sex life was in trouble when I came to bed one night and discovered my wife had installed a shark cage on her side."

-Dennis Miller


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## HelloooNurse (Apr 12, 2010)

Why don't you just ASK her for sex? It isn't hard. Yes it is initiating but if you don't ask, you don't get. Its better to just say a few words ("wanna head to the bedroom?") than to live your life in misery and sexless just because she isn't reading your innuendos and hints. I'm not sure how you associate asking for sex with the Korean war... maybe that is something you should be looking more closely at.


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