# He doesn't understand why it was not ok



## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

The title may be a little extreme - he seems to know why, but not really. 

The story: My husband and I have been together for many years, and have 1 toddler. Since before the baby, we've had our share of problems, and they've just grown. Prior to getting pregnant, he had a slightly inappropriate relationship with a co-worker. Mostly just too friendly. His manager had a problem with it and embarrased them about it and I realized how bad it must be if they were behaving that way while at work. I didn't shut it down as strongly as I should have, and I've been holding on to the anger about it ever since. He actually invited her to our house (I did agree to it) and actually flirted with her in front of me. And really did not get that he did anything wrong.

Then pregnancy and baby. I had (undiagnosed) PPD for a while, my husband was great with helping with the baby and taking care of the house, but kind of just left me to mentally wallow in my own darkness. I don't know that he even noticed. He'd get mad when he'd come home and the house would be dark, I'd have spit up (from the baby) on me that I hadn't changed and barely cleaned up. Just made it worse. 
Gradually I just worked my way out of it, and I've started feeling better. In the last few months started being ok with having someone watch our baby so we could go out, etc. I guess it was too late for him. He says that I've abandoned him and want nothing to do with him physically. It's not true and I feel awful that he feels that way and I got us into counseling to try to work through this. NOTE: He said he was going to find us a counselor about 2 months before, and then just never did it.
So, we've had two counseling sessions. And then Saturday night I looked in his phone because he's been acting secretive (making sure to never leave his phone out of sight in particular). I found evidence that he's been having inappropriate conversations with two different women, one a co-worker, and one a woman he went to high school with, and I know he has spent time with while supposedly out for the night with a male friend (I want to believe that they just "happened" to meet up, but now with this, how can I?). We had a blow up and have gone back and forth about separating or not, working through this or just calling it quits. I'm an emotional mess and don't know what to do. 
I'm lost on this aspect - I don't know how we can move forward if he doesn't seem to understand that our marital problems do not excuse his behavior. How do I get him to understand this? I mean, FFS, we were in counseling to work on our marriage and he was actively seeking relationships outside our marriage and he doesn't see why this is so terribly wrong.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Well since he's actively cheating you can either put up with it or kick him out and make him face the full consequences of it. If anything will put a stop to it that might.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Oh, I didn't include. After I found it, I told him I wanted him to shut down both, and he did. He said he told them both it was inappropriate and he couldn't talk to them anymore. And he defriended them on facebook (which was their main means of communication). Then blocked them after I told him I wanted them completely blocked. 

Also didn't mention that both of these women are also married.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

He is not cheating... according to him... because he is not having a physical affair.

Unfortunately your husband is a bit of an attention-ho and is on the way to destroying you marriage.

What he is doing is having what amounts to an or in your case multiple Emotional Affairs. He is sharing things with other women that he should only share with you.

I would get some advice on Emotional Affairs and educate him as to why his actions are so destructive and they are.

After you educate him, set strong boundaries and make consequences for him crossing those boundaries. Most importantly if he does cross the boundary then the consequence needs to be acted on, swiftly and surely. If you are going to draw a gun on someone, you better be damn willing to use it else they won't believe you.

I am sorry you are here. He knows he is doing something wrong. He would not be secretive if his actions were ok. Demand to see his phone.

Be strong sister. If you want to nip this in the bud and have a good marriage, don't settle for less than him being true to you and your child.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

badaboom said:


> Oh, I didn't include. After I found it, I told him I wanted him to shut down both, and he did. He said he told them both it was inappropriate and he couldn't talk to them anymore. And he defriended them on facebook (which was their main means of communication). Then blocked them after I told him I wanted them completely blocked.
> 
> Also didn't mention that both of these women are also married.


Your husband could honestly be a little dense.... Educate him on the proper way a husband should behave. Let him read about how emotional affairs destroy marriages. If he is doing the things you ask, there is hope but cheaters tend to be smart and go underground so be very wary and don't let him know you are looking.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

MovingAhead said:


> Your husband could honestly be a little dense.... Educate him on the proper way a husband should behave. Let him read about how emotional affairs destroy marriages. If he is doing the things you ask, there is hope but cheaters tend to be smart and go underground so be very wary and don't let him know you are looking.


I agree. I asked him if he knew what an emotional affair was and he said yes. I told him it's the same thing. I also told him I don't know at this point if i can believe him when he says it wasn't physical, because he's still hiding things from me. I mean, seriously. I told him I feel like he's still lying to me and it's making me have to get an STD test to protect myself. My thought is, since he didn't say, no, seriously that's completely unnecessary, then it must be. I told him before I wouldn't stand for cheating, and I won't if he's not remorseful. 

The one positive at the moment is he's getting into counseling - I have hope/faith that his counselor will help to educate him, since apparently i'm talking to a wall.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

badaboom said:


> I agree. I asked him if he knew what an emotional affair was and he said yes. I told him it's the same thing. I also told him I don't know at this point if i can believe him when he says it wasn't physical, because he's still hiding things from me. I mean, seriously. I told him I feel like he's still lying to me and it's making me have to get an STD test to protect myself. My thought is, since he didn't say, no, seriously that's completely unnecessary, then it must be. I told him before I wouldn't stand for cheating, and I won't if he's not remorseful.
> 
> The one positive at the moment is he's getting into counseling - I have hope/faith that his counselor will help to educate him, since apparently i'm talking to a wall.


Get some books on proper boundaries. Many posters can point you to some better books, I prefer Robert Frost... Good Fences make Good Neighbors.

Sounds like you have a decent husband who is a little self absorbed and doesn't understand the damage he is doing. Set him straight. Hold him accountable. Tell him... you married him because you saw what a great man in him and you won't settle for anything less because that is the type of man you need. Whip him into shape before he goes of the stupid end...

Yes he is acting badly but set the strong boundaries, expect greatness from him and maybe he will surprise you but be very very wary.

Good luck to you sister and God bless. I am sorry you are here by the way.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

MovingAhead said:


> Get some books on proper boundaries. Many posters can point you to some better books, I prefer Robert Frost... Good Fences make Good Neighbors.
> 
> Sounds like you have a decent husband who is a little self absorbed and doesn't understand the damage he is doing. Set him straight. Hold him accountable. Tell him... you married him because you saw what a great man in him and you won't settle for anything less because that is the type of man you need. Whip him into shape before he goes of the stupid end...
> 
> ...


Thank you, I guess I did need a male perspective (my other message board is all women). That's a great way to put it that he might be receptive to. I'm sorry you are here too. I know everyone says it, but I really didn't think I'd ever be in this situation, and really didn't think I was the type to handle infidelity as poorly as I have been so far. 
I think he's a lot self-absorbed, I don't know how I haven't seen it. Well, I have. I can't even count all the times I have said "stop making it about you", because that's what he does. He takes my being upset about something and makes it either something he's done or something I'm doing to him. I hope his counselor is a good fit, he needs it.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Contact the other women's husbands tell them what's up.

It should put an end to their communications. If he act mad then he's more worried about theses so called friends than his own family.


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

badaboom said:


> he doesn't see why this is so terribly wrong.


Off course he knows it's wrong and knows why it's not okay, that''s why he kept it hidden from you and was being secretive, don't be fooled into thinking otherwise.

There are some adulterers that are truly cluess with regards to emotional affairs but your husband isn't one of them and, depending on his inapprpriate conversations, he could have been looking to take those relationships further.



chillymorn said:


> *Contact the other women's husbands tell them what's up.*
> 
> It should put an end to their communications. If he act mad then he's more worried about theses so called friends than his own family.


:iagree:

Make use of the 180 to help you.


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

The 180

1. Don’t pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

2. No frequent phone calls.

3. Don’t point out “good points” in marriage.

4. Don’t follow her/him around the house.

5. Don’t encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

6. Don’t ask for help from the family members of your wayward partner.

7. Don’t ask for reassurances.

8. Don’t buy or give gifts.

9. Don’t schedule dates together.

10. Don’t keep saying, “I Love You!” Because if you really think about it, he/she is, at this particular moment, not very loveable.

11. Do more than act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!

12. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

13. Don’t sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

14. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don’t push any issue, no matter how much you want to!

15. If you’re in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

16. Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that “they (the wayward partner)” are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack there of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life…without them!

17. Don’t be nasty, angry or even cold – Just pull yourself back. Don’t always be so available…for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you’re missing.

18. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Make yourself be someone they would want to be around, not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self-assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

19. All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

20. Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control. YOURSELF!

21. Don’t be overly enthusiastic.

22. Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!

23. Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Hear what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!

24. Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

25. Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

26. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

27. Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

28. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

29. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It’s not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don’t care.

30. Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

31. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It “ain’t over till it’s over!”

32. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

33. When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don’t work out with the affair partner.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

badaboom said:


> The title may be a little extreme - he seems to know why, but not really.
> 
> The story: My husband and I have been together for many years, and have 1 toddler. Since before the baby, we've had our share of problems, and they've just grown. Prior to getting pregnant, he had a slightly inappropriate relationship with a co-worker. Mostly just too friendly. His manager had a problem with it and embarrased them about it and I realized how bad it must be if they were behaving that way while at work. I didn't shut it down as strongly as I should have, and I've been holding on to the anger about it ever since. He actually invited her to our house (I did agree to it) and actually flirted with her in front of me. And really did not get that he did anything wrong.
> 
> ...



If you only have one child and your husband can't make room in life for his child's needs, this is bad news for the future. 

Children ALWAYS need something, and you both just have the one. Pretty common situation when a child comes along and hubby is not getting all the attention. Hubby starts to check out. 

This is how things (loosely) went in my marriage. Pretty soon you'll be holding down the fort and putting out all the fires at home while your husband is out putting out different kinds of fires.

Your husband has much maturing to do if his marriage is going to work. When the going gets tough, the tough don't get on their phones of their Facebook accounts and chat it up with old girlfriends. 

You're a woman, ever had a married man, with a young child flirt with you? It's not really hot stuff. They look like loser idiots who not only come off as pathetic but you feel bad for the wife in the marriage. 

Guys like your husband are a dime a dozen in most work places and usually most women at work think THAT guy , (your husband) is That annoying, embarrassing guy 

You really need to get serious with your husband soon. He is one of the family team leaders or he is not. He needs to be 100% on board and you shouldn't waste your time babysitting him. 

There will be children, sickness, death, pets, money......all big-boy and big-girl things you AGREE TO TAKE on when you are together raising a family. 

Jumping ship so soon after a child is common. You have to lay down the SERIOUS laws of YOUR marriage to him soon. 

Oh, and he's already blaming YOU for his actions. Your not blowing him 24/7 so it's okay to fish for someone else that will?

I don't see your husband as a decent guy at all. I see him acting immature while embarrassing not only himself but his wife and child. 

Catch it early because it can get away so fast and resentment builds over time and then the blame game. 

State your boundries in writing if you need to. Go over your vows to each other. They all meant something. He is doing a bad thing.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

I think you may be right. Maybe he's not a decent guy. I think he's really mixed up and apparently has been for a while. But maybe that's just wishful thinking that it's him having some sort of mental issue and not just being a selfish jerk. 

I thought about contacting their husbands, but really, I don't care. I care about what my husband is doing. I talked to him more about his relationship with the one woman, apparently having been going on for the last 6 months. It makes me sick. I feel like the last 6 months were a lie. And he sought her out, and doesn't get that him making the conscious choice to talk to her instead of me is his fault, not mine. I want to work through this, but I don't know if I can. How can I when he's just blaming me for his own selfish, jerk actions? 
I asked him how would he feel if roles were reversed, and he again went on this thing about how he'd felt "abandoned" in the marriage and he thinks he would have understood if he'd done that to me. HOW DOES HE NOT SEE THAT THAT'S WHAT HE'S DONE?!?


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Remember that there might be a difference between what he knows is wrong, and what he's willing to admit to the person he injured.

Accepting responsibility for poor actions and choices is what decent people do.

In his mind, there was a bump in his marital bliss. That bump was your PPD, brought on by giving birth to his child. And his solution is to seek out other women.

If he doesn't turn this around quickly, it will continue for the rest of the marriage. Every time he sees a bump (whether its there or not), he will resort to this inappropriate behavior.
Draw your line in the sand, girl. Let him know in no uncertain terms it is not acceptable behavior.


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

badaboom said:


> He says that I've abandoned him and want nothing to do with him physically. It's not true and I feel awful that he feels that way and I got us into counseling to try to work through this


The above, if you're unaware, is blame shifting and rewriting of marital history. It is common amongst cheaters or those who are looking to cheat. 

The cheater will accuse and blame their marital problems on their spouse and make the marriage seem terrible so that in their mind they are justified in their behaviour to seek out other relations.

Typically cheating tends to happen with co-workers, ex boyfriends or girlfriends, neighbours, high school acquintances or married men or women.

It starts of with texts, calls and emails and usually escalates to a physical affair.

You shouldn't assume the blame your husband is throwing your way. It's just his way of trying to fabricate a reason and find an excuse for his behaviour.

Try following the *180* I recommended above. Telling the husbands of the women your husband was involved with is the right thing to do. You would want someone to do the same for you if you were in their position. It also acts as a form of consequence for your husband and it will curb any possible future attempts by him or the women to start this again or shut down their contact if they have taken it underground.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Locke.Stratos said:


> The above, if you're unaware, is blame shifting and rewriting of marital history. It is common amongst cheaters or those who are looking to cheat.
> 
> The cheater will accuse and blame their marital problems on their spouse and make the marriage seem terrible so that in their mind they are justified in their behaviour to seek out other relations.
> 
> ...


I'm so far away from doing the 180 it's ridiculous. I try and then I just swing back in the other direction. 

I will think about telling their husbands. I'd have to find them to tell them. 

It might not even matter. He doesn't even know if he wants to be married to me anymore - he's talked himself into all the problems in our marriage as having been my fault. And that wasn't just to justify what he did (though it sure didn't help). He was blaming me for everything before he started talking to her. We had a long talk this morning and I just don't know. I hate to not try, but when he's been so hell-bent on blaming me for everything, what's the point? 

I asked him to move out for the next week, until we've both been to a therapists appointment. I know all will not suddenly be crystal clear after one appointment, but I hope I'll have some better frame of mind to know what to do.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You can stamp your feet all you want about his failure to get that his behavior is his responsibility, but that probably won't turn the light on for him and stop his blameshifting.

Real consequences are what usually force someone to see the light. I agree that the 180 would be a big help to you here. Take care of yourself by implementing it. You will feel stronger and he will have a much better view of what he is losing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

People don't learn when they do something wrong unless they suffer a consequence for it. Your H needs a consequence. Kicking him out is a good start. I'm sure you're thinking 'but then he may never come back,' so I'll ask you: do you want to spend the next 50 years checking his phone to see who he's talking to THIS week?

There are plenty of men out there who won't cheat on you.


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

badaboom said:


> I'm so far away from doing the 180 it's ridiculous. I try and then I just swing back in the other direction.
> 
> I will think about telling their husbands. I'd have to find them to tell them.
> 
> ...


This may not be the case in your situation but he may have found someone else. His insistence that you're to blame for everything and him not being sure if he wants the marriage is typical of a hidden affair. Has he said anything about needing 'space"?

Regardless, having him move out is a good idea. It will allow you space to breathe and the perspective of not having the one who has caused you pain and anxiety around you all the time. It will alow you the time and space to decide if YOU want this marriage and not just 

If you're having a tough time with the 180 then just try focusing on yourself for a while. Work towards improving your psychological and physical well-being. Join a gym or take up some form of exercise or physical activity regularly throughout the week. Work on being fit and healthy, eat healthy too and sleep reguarly. Make time to go and or spend time with your friends and family. With regards to your husband, do not contact him unless it's extremely necessary and it regards your household, finances or your child.

Work towards being independent and happy so that whether your marriage continues or not, you will be fine either way.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

turnera said:


> People don't learn when they do something wrong unless they suffer a consequence for it. Your H needs a consequence. Kicking him out is a good start. I'm sure you're thinking 'but then he may never come back,' so I'll ask you: do you want to spend the next 50 years checking his phone to see who he's talking to THIS week?
> 
> There are plenty of men out there who won't cheat on you.


That was the same thought I had. My initial reaction to people telling me to make him leave was that if he wasn't here then I wouldn't know what he was doing. But he's going to do what he's going to do, whether I'm around or not. He gave me his passwords to Facebook and email, but I don't even want to look. He swears he blocked them, never emailed them, and deleted their numbers.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Locke.Stratos said:


> This may not be the case in your situation but he may have found someone else. His insistence that you're to blame for everything and him not being sure if he wants the marriage is typical of a hidden affair. Has he said anything about needing 'space"?
> 
> Regardless, having him move out is a good idea. It will allow you space to breathe and the perspective of not having the one who has caused you pain and anxiety around you all the time. It will alow you the time and space to decide if YOU want this marriage and not just
> 
> ...


He is adamant that he was just talking and she gave him attention when I wasn't. However, he refused to answer the question of where did he think this was all going to go. Since he's been lying to me, I don't know if he really doesn't know what he was thinking or if he just doesn't want to tell me. 

He didn't say space, he said a break - same thing? Part of me felt like I would be giving him what he wanted by making him leave (part of the reason I didn't do it sooner). He kept asking me, do you want me to leave? I just didn't know what was best to do. I'm still confused, but not having his presence here for a couple of days (before he comes to see the baby) will hopefully clear my fog. I can't stop crying - we've been together 13 years. Just looking around the house thinking about splitting this up just makes me break right down again.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I only believe in separation if you are planning to divorce and it aids in the process but not if you are trying to reconcile. Otherwise, there's suddenly all that time to cheat without a spouse monitoring your movements. Not everyone who separates does that but it's a substantial risk. You have to decide if it's worth it.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Openminded said:


> I only believe in separation if you are planning to divorce and it aids in the process but not if you are trying to reconcile. Otherwise, there's suddenly all that time to cheat without a spouse monitoring your movements. Not everyone who separates does that but it's a substantial risk.


That's how I felt. He started talking about a "controlled separation" but all I could hear was that he wanted to be away from me so he could do what he wanted without my suspicions and general presence. But after several days of his back and forth behavior, I just couldn't stand to have him here right now. He would act all sweet and touchy feely, then a few hours later he's talking about a separation. My nerves couldn't deal with that. 
We've had a problem with fighting for a while, so I think a few days to calm down won't hurt. But I guess I'll find out. He's all upset because we're having a snow/ice storm tomorrow so he's just going to be stuck in his hotel. Guess we'll see what he does with all that free time (assuming he tells me, but I'm not asking).


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

The fact that he wanted a separation tells you a lot. It's very likely so he can do whatever he pleases. Upset about a snow/ice storm? Wonder how he was planning on spending that time. Not in any way you would approve, I'm guessing.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Openminded said:


> The fact that he wanted a separation tells you a lot. It's very likely so he can do whatever he pleases. Upset about a snow/ice storm? Wonder how he was planning on spending that time. Not in any way you would approve, I'm guessing.


He wanted to come here tomorrow to see our daughter, but I told him no. Honestly I think he was whining about it to make me feel bad for him. Not necessarily because he has any particular plans. But like I said, I really don't know. And I'm trying to embrace this 180 thing and not ask. It's really hard, I hate not knowing things.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Personally? I would have done the 180 while he was with you. He was a little too anxious for this to happen for me to be comfortable with it. But what's done is done. It's better not to ask what he did while he was gone because you will never know if you got the truth. It's something you agreed to and so you will have to let it go. I wouldn't do it again though.


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

badaboom said:


> He kept asking me, do you want me to leave?





badaboom said:


> He started talking about a "controlled separation" but all I could hear was that he wanted to be away from me so he could do what he wanted without my suspicions and general presence.


Seems that the "break' was at his urging. He wanted it but lacked the integrity to say so forthright so he orchestrated it in a way in which you ultimately relented and endorsed its implementation.

It's a standard ploy because now it appears that the break was your idea and he bears no responsibility or guilt over it.



badaboom said:


> He didn't say space, he said a break - same thing?


Space, time, time apart, break. It's all the same and usually for the same reason. Men typically want to leave for "space" and women tend to want their husbands to move out for "space". He wants the sanctioned liberty to "explore". He either already has someone or will be open to the possibility.

Like I wrote earlier, his blaming you, wanting space/a break and indecisiveness over the status of your marriage is usually an indicator of adulterous behaviour, but it also may not be the case here. It kinda just seems like your husband is a bit of a tool and dunce.



badaboom said:


> we've been together 13 years


This shouldn't be a determining factor, time spend together is paramount. What matters is how the relationship is, has been, honesty, respect, love and how the couple treats one another.

You have space from him at the moment. Take the time to reflect and think on what you want and what you need. The two of you both hold responsibility for the issues in your marriage but he alone is responsible for any relations or affairs he has with anyone else.

Under no circumstances should you accept or shoulder any fault he claims lies with you for everything and your marital problems and don't let him convince you otherwise. It's nonsense.

I feel that honesty and communication in relationships is vital. If you want this marriage then my advice would be to be honest about it. Talk to him and tell him what you want, what you need from him, discuss your issues and maybe seek a qualified, reputable counsellor.

If he continues to be jack*** and doesn't want to hear what you're saying and still chooses to behave inappropriately or wants to pursue other women then you've said and done all that you could and should move forward.

Take the steps I mentioned above and also the 180. The 180 is essentially a tool to help you through this but it also often has the effect of serving as a wake-up call to one's partner.

Men tend to respond to two things: a crisis and jealousy. A crisis offers men the opportunity to fix or rescue and be that shining knight, which I think most men are predispositioned to; and jealousy presents to the possibility that there's a real chance of losing their partner. In this instance, jealousy doesn't refer to another man but you being strong enough to walk away from him and be happy, essentially jealousy over a life without him.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I wouldn't just do a 180 and let him stay. This type of man doesn't just stop believing he has a right to have a harem because you quit talking to him. In fact, he probably enjoys it - one less woman to have to please, while you continue to provide him food, clothes, tv, and a roof. 

The ONLY way I've ever seen men like this change, in 15 years of doing this, is when the wife kicks him out and starts divorce proceedings, and he realizes that he's about to lose it all.

He has to see that you mean it - you have them? You don't get me. Choose.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

OP, 
If you are separating be sure to talk of conditions you both agree to live by. My husband and I did not. Zero, I didn't even think to, as I "ass"ume we both would take the time to work on ourselves and sort out what to do next.

From what I understand it became a time for my husband to live a "life of a single man," and now, refuses to even address that statement was ever said to me a few yrs later.

The separation did not bring us closer. We stay in 24/7 contact, but our lives are so distance. We live a life of a married couple with no benefits,((no intimacy at all)) and life of a single person with no benefits. ((again, "ass"uming" no intimacy at all))

Not a fun way to live. 

So plan out what you want to get out of this separation ((if I read correctly you asked for)) just dont wing it, or you may end up like me... almost 4 year this May to Dday ... 

~sammy


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

OP

As posts often go on they take on different meanings especially as you added more detail.

I originally said it sounds like he was decent guy, but honestly he doesn't sound decent at all.

There was a post from years ago that I still remember... 'The only reason to live in separate places is so that someone can Fvck whoever they want.' 

That may or may not be true, but if your H is being a tool and wants a controlled separation, then it sounds like you are plan B and that he wants his cake and eat it too. 

Nothing he is doing sounds like he is being decent at all. I would be very suspicious if he moved out. He is letting you do all the work with the toddler ad he has no responsibilities and can have his bachelor pad... What is good about that?

Just be very wary. It does not sound like this is heading toward a happy ending.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Moving Ahead made some real good points. Men don't see it as an affair if sex isn't involved but it is still not innocent. He is/was spending time pursuing the interests of another woman and as long s your husband is doing this he is neglecting you and the marriage. he can make all the claims of innocence he wants. He can blame you and you can eat his words but basically he made a choice, a choice that didn't include your best interests or the interest of the marriage. 

You did well by confronting the situation and having him unfriend/block these women. You also need to address the behavior that is and is not acceptable and if he doesn't listen, take him to a marriage counselor.

Been thru this myself. It's not easy and it will play in your head....too many questions. Do not berate yourself and feel guilty for his actions. You did not drive him away. He made this choice. Trust is damaged and he is going to have to work to repair that.


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## Welsh15 (Feb 24, 2014)

I would recommend telling him to get out, implement the 180 in your life and your dealings with him, and talk to a divorce attorney. Have him served with papers if he doesn't come around soon. Also, most definitely show him some consequences and inform the spouses of those he is cheating with as that is a sure fire way to rock his world.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

badaboom said:


> I thought about contacting their husbands, but really, I don't care. I care about what my husband is doing. I talked to him more about his relationship with the one woman, apparently having been going on for the last 6 months. It makes me sick. I feel like the last 6 months were a lie. And he sought her out, and doesn't get that him making the conscious choice to talk to her instead of me is his fault, not mine.* I want to work through this, but I don't know if I can. How can I when he's just blaming me for his own selfish, jerk actions? *


It is impossible to work through someone else's issues for him. If he is not willing to admit the truth and then turn around and correct his behavior, you will have nothing to work with.
I don't blame you for making him leave, when he is going back and forth. That is crazy making behavior on his part. Since he stepped out on your when he thought he wasn't getting enough attention, it is likely that doing the 180 will be a way for you to detach from him, but it is unlikely to bring him around. He will probably make some phone calls have meet with women asap. Your husband is not behaving in a loving manner. If a person isn't acting like they love you - they don't. It's as simply as that. I'm sorry, your husband is being such a jerk. You don't deserve to be treated like this.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

badaboom said:


> I'm so far away from doing the 180 it's ridiculous. I try and then I just swing back in the other direction.
> 
> I will think about telling their husbands. I'd have to find them to tell them.
> 
> ...


There are some book that I think will go a long way to help you here. You first need to decide what it is you want to do.. if you want to even consider giving him another chance or not.

I know you say that he's not sure he wants to continue the marriage. There is a good chance that this is tactic that he's using... if he tells you he's ready to walk, he might think that will get you to rug sweep his affairs.

Set yourself on a path to what you want, it that's divorce, you have every right. If it's reconciliation, then there are things that you do and your work on bettering yourself. If he decides to take you up on the gift of reconciliation that you offer.. then that's good. If he choses not to.. then you have set yourself on a path to move on and live a good life.

The first book is:

"Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley. Read this one first. It will guide you on what to do.

The others are for reconciliation and/or if you want to learn how to make a marriage as affair proof as is possible:

"Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs"


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

badaboom said:


> That was the same thought I had. My initial reaction to people telling me to make him leave was that if he wasn't here then I wouldn't know what he was doing. But he's going to do what he's going to do, whether I'm around or not. He gave me his passwords to Facebook and email, but I don't even want to look. He swears he blocked them, never emailed them, and deleted their numbers.


Very often a cheater will do exactly what your husband says he's done.. ended all contact. They make a show to their spouse about how they has been accomplished.

But in reality they just took it underground. You have no way of knowing.

This is one of the major reasons that exposing to the husbands of the affair partner(s) is suggested. If you expose the affair(s) to their husband(s), then these women will most likely be so busy trying to save their own marriages that they will drop any contact with your husband.

Plus, if it works out right, their husbands would contact you if they find out about any further contact.

Nothing ends an affair quicker than exposure. It's like turning the lights on and the roaches scramble.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Moving ahead for post of the day.

Reread his last post.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Well it's much worse than I thought. I have read through all of your posts, and I truly appreciate the help, support, and guidance you have all provided. 

I do not think he has taken their relationship underground (though I could be wrong of course). However, I knew he wasn't being honest with me about the extent of the relationship. In one month, he had over 4000 text messages exchanged with her. Yep, I looked in his cell phone records because I knew he was hiding something. Over 100 texts exchanged on my birthday. All day long. And that day was also the day we first met with our marriage counselor. Needless to say, I'm disgusted and furious. I confronted him, and he was unable to provide me with any reason besides "I grew comfortable talking to her". He also finally admitted that he has developed feelings for her, they have kissed (but he swears that is it), and they have had some sexual conversations. 

Regarding telling her husband - doesn't matter. They're separated and close to being divorced (my husband is adamant that she was separated before they started talking). I asked him what kind of woman gets involved with a married man with a baby, and he was quick to defend her, that he sought her out, not the other way around. I told him, firstly, he is not allowed to defend her to me. And secondly, she is just as implicit in this as he is, I don't care who started talking to who. 

I contacted a divorce attorney this morning (of course I won't hear back until tomorrow at the earliest). I have my first solo therapy appointment on Tuesday and he is going to start solo therapy as well. From there we'll decide together if we're going to do couples counseling. I probably will, if for nothing else to show I tried everything, and for my daughter. So we can learn to co-parent together while not being together. 

The reason I pointed out 13 years is that we were together a long time and happy for most of that time. So yeah, I agree he's a tool - I liked what a previous commenter said, that when the going gets tough, the tough don't get on their phones and contact old girlfriends. 

I just have to get it through my own head that filing is going to be the next step. He has completely owned up to what he did was wrong. But that doesn't change that he has feelings for another woman and doesn't know if he wants to be married to me at all. I'm not going to tell him again that I am willing to work through this with him, if he can just commit to wanting to fix our marriage. I've asked him twice and he has not. So he can come after me. I just need to keep reading here and stay strong. 

He acknowledged that his lying made everything so much worse, and he understood why I snooped. He's still mad about it (well ****, I don't like snooping, but I also don't like having to). There was a lot more said, but I believe him when he says he's sorry he hurt me and that he had no idea where this was going. I say I believe him because I truly believe he just wasn't thinking outside of his own needs. 

I feel sick. I can't eat and have lost 5 pounds in the last 4 days. I just don't know who this person is that I'd committed my life to. That I made our beautiful daughter with.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> There are some book that I think will go a long way to help you here. You first need to decide what it is you want to do.. if you want to even consider giving him another chance or not.
> 
> I know you say that he's not sure he wants to continue the marriage. There is a good chance that this is tactic that he's using... if he tells you he's ready to walk, he might think that will get you to rug sweep his affairs.
> 
> ...


Also, I was looking at Plan A and Plan B - should I tell him to stay here for the next two weeks while we work through a few sessions of counseling? He told me he was going to stay with a friend who lives in the same town as the OW. I just don't know how much stress I can take at this moment wondering if he's gone to see her.

Another reason for keeping him here - he does daycare pick up and drop off. It's going to be really hard on me to do that without having to rearrange my work schedule (which I can only do so permanently, and the way I would want to do it if I had custody would be different than the way I'd want to deal with it right now). I don't know. I also want him to get that leaving means he doesn't get time with our daughter, but I don't want to use her as a instrument to hurt him. I'd rather keep things as regular as possible for her, if I can.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

One last thing - thank you everyone for your respectful and helpful words. I was on another message board and they just yelled at me for not being able to throw him out the moment I found out. Not very helpful or productive. I get what they were saying, but they weren't paying attention to me, just what they think any person in this situation would do, regardless of that person's emotional state. So thank you.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

badaboom said:


> Also, I was looking at Plan A and Plan B - should I tell him to stay here for the next two weeks while we work through a few sessions of counseling? He told me he was going to stay with a friend who lives in the same town as the OW. I just don't know how much stress I can take at this moment wondering if he's gone to see her.
> 
> Another reason for keeping him here - he does daycare pick up and drop off. It's going to be really hard on me to do that without having to rearrange my work schedule (which I can only do so permanently, and the way I would want to do it if I had custody would be different than the way I'd want to deal with it right now). I don't know. I also want him to get that leaving means he doesn't get time with our daughter, but I don't want to use her as a instrument to hurt him. I'd rather keep things as regular as possible for her, if I can.


You could talk to him about why you want him out of the house - his behavior is crazy making by going back and forth. He is not being a man of integrity and he is hurting you. If he wants to stay, there have to be some serious boundaries. You could tell him that you will no longer pursue him in any way shape or form. If he wants to talk to you, he will have to grow up and talk to you. In the mean time, you can do the 180 and only respond to him when he is communicating with you directly.
If that doesn't work for you, had you considered changing your schedule to how you would want it if your husband leaves permanently? You could let him know that now that he is not committed to you or your family that you will have to make arrangements to cope without him, so you will be changing your schedule permanently in order for your life to work.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Keep him there and do a 180.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> Also, I was looking at Plan A and Plan B - should I tell him to stay here for the next two weeks while we work through a few sessions of counseling?


Do you seriously think 'a few sessions' of counseling will turn him into a new person? Who no longer believes in flirting as much as he wants (and probably getting all the sex from all the women he can, that you just don't know about)? Who no longer believes he has the right to be mad at YOU for snooping?

That is his character, OP. He isn't going to turn that off. Especially in 'a few sessions.'


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

I did tell him he could stay here. He's been relegated to the basement. I don't know if he thinks that's a blessing or a curse, but I didn't ask. I'm trying to do the 180 thing and not engage. 
I don't know what I'm doing. One of his issues with our marriage was feeling like I didn't want to be around him, so I don't know what purpose it serves to do the same as we've always done. But at the moment it doens't matter because I can barely even look at him. 

And to Tunera, no I don't think all will be even remotely solved in a few counseling sessions. What may or may not come out of them is for us both to get ourselves grounded regarding whether to try to work this out through marriage counseling, or move forward with a legal separation.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

CynthiaDe said:


> You could talk to him about why you want him out of the house - his behavior is crazy making by going back and forth. He is not being a man of integrity and he is hurting you. If he wants to stay, there have to be some serious boundaries. You could tell him that you will no longer pursue him in any way shape or form. If he wants to talk to you, he will have to grow up and talk to you. In the mean time, you can do the 180 and only respond to him when he is communicating with you directly.
> If that doesn't work for you, had you considered changing your schedule to how you would want it if your husband leaves permanently? You could let him know that now that he is not committed to you or your family that you will have to make arrangements to cope without him, so you will be changing your schedule permanently in order for your life to work.


I wish I'd seen this earlier. We're in our separate parts of the house and I don't want to engage with him any more tonight - but if he initiates anything I will tell him this. Thank you.
I have already run through scenarios for how I'd have to change my schedule, and I will if I don't feel like we're progressing in any sort of remotely positive direction.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

One step at a time. You don't have to get everything figured out right now. You will learn and grow as you go and that's okay. Just do your best and try to be calm from the inside out.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I think that it's good he's staying in the house for right now. And it's good he's separate.

Him going to stay with a friend who is closer to the OW is bad news. He still has obligations, like day care pickup/drop-off. Do not let him off the hook from his responsibilities. That only enables him to run off and leaves everything on you.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

I need a reality check. Am I being controlling because I went in his cell phone (when I caught him) and his email? Then checked his cell phone records online a week later because I knew he wasn't telling me the truth? Is this controlling?? I know it's not right, and I hate that I did it, but is it actually controlling?


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

no it is not controlling. thats called gaslighting. lies to confuse you, avoid responsibility, blameshift and make you question yourself.

there is confusion between secrecy and privacy in marriage. privacy is closing the bathroom door. 

there is no secrecy in marriage. that is left behind at the steps of the church. all devices, accounts, passwords are freely open to both partners as is your lives, thoughts, love, hopes and dreams. all is available at any time for any reason.

boundaries are important in marriage. boundaries keep the evils in the world outside your marriage. without strong boundaries, one allows toxins to leak into marriage and poison it.

with strong boundaries, you can grow, love and trust beyond any relationship you can ever have on earth.

he needs to grow the f up, take responsibility and rebuild what he's broken. your trust, your love and marriage.

if he wont face that, you still have choices.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

badaboom said:


> I need a reality check. Am I being controlling because I went in his cell phone (when I caught him) and his email? Then checked his cell phone records online a week later because I knew he wasn't telling me the truth? Is this controlling?? I know it's not right, and I hate that I did it, but is it actually controlling?


No, it is not controlling. Controlling is when a person is trying to make things go their own way or how they think things ought to be. It is also trying to get others to behave in a certain way.

Snooping is not controlling. It is trying to understand what is going on and to know what is happening in one's own life. The reason he is calling you controlling is that he doesn't like that he was found out and he's trying to say that what you did to find out was wrong. He was cheating. You found out by snooping. He's trying to turn it back around on you. I don't think what you did was wrong. When you know that something is not right and you are trying to find out what's going on, that is a normal human response. Him saying that what you did was wrong is saying that acting on your suspicions to find out what is going on in your life is wrong.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Rather than complaining that you snooped, he should be doing everything he can to make it up to you for his bad behavior. He should be focused on bringing healing and trust back into the relationship, but he is not doing that. He is trying to move the mirror from his own face to yours. You did nothing wrong.


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

badaboom said:


> I need a reality check. Am I being controlling because I went in his cell phone (when I caught him) and his email? Then checked his cell phone records online a week later because I knew he wasn't telling me the truth? Is this controlling?? I know it's not right, and I hate that I did it, but is it actually controlling?


No you are not being controlling.

We've mentioed this on your thread before. If your husband is accusing you of being controlling then it is as *Q tip* has said, you are being gas lighted/lit and he is blame shifting. Gas-ligting is when someone tries to convince you that your behaviour is irrational, unreasonable or that you are acting crazy, paranoid, being controlling, etc and blame shifting is whereby you're said to solely bear the blame for any issues or troubles in your marriage.

You are not being controlling, that isn't even the definition of being controlling. Your husband is accusing you of all of these things to take any focus and responsibility off of him so that he doesn't have to change, make amends or expend any effort and put it all on you.

Read up on the terms gas-lighting, blame shifting and the rewriting of marital histories. They're pretty common amongst liars, manipulators and cheaters.

Badaboom, do not let him fool you or get inside your head with his words. Arm yourself with knowledge and information of what you can expect from him. There is no way that you can work on anything with him until he behaves like a mature adult and accepts responsibility for his behaviour and actions.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Oh how I remember the righteous indignation of a cheater that's been caught!

You are not controlling, you were fighting for your marriage. A controlling spouse would have taken the cellphone away. Should this kind of accusation come up again, don't accept the premise. Ask him why he believes its alright to hide extra-marital relationships from his wife.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Locke.Stratos said:


> No you are not being controlling.
> 
> We've mentioed this on your thread before. If your husband is accusing you of being controlling then it is as *Q tip* has said, you are being gas lighted/lit and he is blame shifting. Gas-ligting is when someone tries to convince you that your behaviour is irrational, unreasonable or that you are acting crazy, paranoid, being controlling, etc and blame shifting is whereby you're said to solely bear the blame for any issues or troubles in your marriage.
> 
> ...


Thank you - I didn't think so, but I suddenly thought, maybe I just don't even know what I'm doing. He said he is going to leave for a few days because he can't deal with my controlling. I told him if he went there (the friend's house who lives in the same town as OW) then I will be thinking that's why he's going. I'm not telling him not to go, but that's what will be in my mind if he goes to that town. I feel like that is controlling, but I wanted him to understand that it will push us that much further away from repairing if he goes there. 

He said he wanted time to see a therapist and think about what he wants, and I'm not giving it to him because I keep digging. I dig because he keeps lying! I don't know what the right next thing to do is.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

next time you argue... tell him you are protecting our marriage. just what is it that he's protecting.

he needs to do all the heavy lifting to gain your trust back. some have suggested filing for D and hold it over his head. it might wake him up. you can always delay or cancel. 

it is also your right to D him at any time for any reason. next week or 5 years from now. take the power back with consequences. expose his behavior to family and friends so they will support you and bring further pressure to bear.

just some thoughts...


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

badaboom said:


> He said he wanted time to see a therapist and think about what he wants


Statements like the above are usually said to stall, buy himself some time or in order to appease you and have you back off for a while.

When dealing with liars, adulterers and manipulators, never believe what they say, trust only in their actions and behaviour. What he says he wants to do and what he actualy does are two completely different things.




badaboom said:


> He said he is going to leave for a few days because he can't deal with my controlling.


The above relates directly to this.


Locke.Stratos said:


> Space, time, time apart, break. It's all the same and usually for the same reason. Men typically want to leave for "space" and women tend to want their husbands to move out for "space". He wants the sanctioned liberty to "explore". He either already has someone or will be open to the possibility.
> 
> Like I wrote earlier, his blaming you, wanting space/a break and indecisiveness over the status of your marriage is usually an indicator of adulterous behaviour


I think that for a few of us here, we are aware and experienced or "initiated" in these type of situations. What appears obvious to us isn't necessarily that obvious for someone who has never gone through this before.

Your husband wants to visit the OW. However he lacks the integrity and character to declare so outright (cowardice, selfishness) and doesn't want you to know that, so instead he concocts a (passable) reason for him to leave to attain a form of "space" to pursue this other woman. His accusing you of being controlling affords him the reason he needs to leave to visit that town and by not making you aware of his true intentions he has the option of returning to you if it doesn't work out with the other woman or he'll try his luck with the both of you. The chances are that if it doesn't work with this other woman he'll say something along the lines of "He's willing to return home but only if you change/stop being controlling/some other bull****".

The reality is that in order to affect a change in him you have to be hardcore and take drastic actions. An argument here and there, disapproval and an (empty) threat of consequences is a mild irritation at best, especially if he knows that regardless of what he does, you'll still be at home waiting to take him back. You can not 'nice', reason or be understanding in order to get him (to want to come) back.

You deserve someone who respects and loves you and treats you as such. You have to be willing to show him that you can move on with your life without him, that if doesn't change and follows through with this other woman that you will end this marriage and file for divorce. If he truly believes that his curent course of action will lead to him losing you then he'll either change and make the effort or show you just how little he cares. Either way you have to stop falling for his bull**** lines and lies and stand up for yourself.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Locke.Stratos said:


> Your husband wants to visit the OW. However he lacks the integrity and character to declare so outright (cowardice, selfishness) and doesn't want you to know that, so instead he concocts a (passable) reason for him to leave to attain a form of "space" to pursue this other woman. His accusing you of being controlling affords him the reason he needs to leave to visit that town and by not making you aware of his true intentions he has the option of returning to you if it doesn't work out with the other woman or he'll try his luck with the both of you. The chances are that if it doesn't work with this other woman he'll say something along the lines of "He's willing to return home but only if you change/stop being controlling/some other bull****".


^^^ This is what he is doing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheaters always say they need 'space.' It's their number one go-to to use.

The number two go-to is to claim you are controlling.

Guess what? That means he's still cheating.

Many here tell you to keep him at home, but I completely disagree. He has to be afraid of losing you before he will question what he's doing. The only times I see cheaters stop cheating is when they fear losing their spouse/family/convenience/money. You are appeasing him and making it look like if he just gives you a little, you'll allow him to keep his double life. 

If it were me and he said that, I would have kicked him out by now.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

badaboom said:


> I need a reality check. Am I being controlling because I went in his cell phone (when I caught him) and his email? Then checked his cell phone records online a week later because I knew he wasn't telling me the truth? Is this controlling?? I know it's not right, and I hate that I did it, but is it actually controlling?


No, he is trying to control you. You saw something to have reason to be suspicious and upon investigating which is not controlling, you found what you suspected. Had you thought he would have been truthful in the first place you probably would not even had to thought to check, you could have asked, but you knew better. You did what needed to be done. You then addresses the issue. Once he was caught he had to blame you instead of coming clean. Once caught it is time to come clean. Not too uncommon for someone to place blame but as long as he blames you and does not face his own reality he is showing no intention to be any different. He wants to believe he had reason, he wants to believe that he was innocent, he wants to make you his excuse. His only excuse is himself, it was a choice he made for himself.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Thank you Q Tip, et al. 

I didn't think I was being controlling, but sometimes you really need an objective view to understand what's going on. We had a long talk last night, after he came to me and told me he was going to stay with that friend for a few days. I told him that I cannot stop him, and I won't try. But that he needed to know that in my mind, he was going there so he had a better chance to see OW. And with his lies, I cannot believe him when he says he's not doing so. He's still going, I guess. I'm not asking anymore. After I laid out all the ways I was hurt by this, I'm done. He knows what he did, and how badly he hurt me. I used several lines I got from this thread (I deserve a husband who will love me no matter what, that he's pulling from the cheater's handbook, some other things I can't remember - it was a long conversation). 
So I'm going the 180 route from now on (or trying my hardest). 

I'm having a really hard time with the concept though - if he's saying he's trying to figure out what he wants (meaning whether or not he wants to be married to me) and there's a big part of him that doesn't. Then what am I fighting for? I want to try, but I also want to say, I shouldn't have to fight for my husband to love me and want to be with me. The fact is, he's said a few times that he thinks it'll be so much work to get us back to good - so clearly he's not invested in our relationship if he thinks that working on getting us healthy is too much. He's always put so much pressure on me - all the issues in our marriage he would lay on me like I was the only one who could fix them. And look what happened when I didn't know what to do... Is that emotional laziness?

I did write up a 4 item list of my boundaries. I told him about it last night and said that they're only relevant if he wants to try to make this work. If he does, then those are my hard rules:

1) Total honesty - meaning, when I ask a question, I get an honest answer. Share all passwords (ALL passwords, meaning if you are using another email account besides gmail and yahoo, the password to that too)

2) Follow what the therapist advises - this week, hug. Maybe even go back and try what she was advising before - discussing how to have fun together, and communicate.

3) No contact with OW. None. At all. 

4) You spend the amount of time you took from our family and gave to another woman, and give that time back to us. 

I ended up emailing it to him after we went to bed last night - no response. But he knows where I stand. I won't move forward without him agreeing to these. And I told him he can give me his own short list of needs and we can discuss.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

turnera said:


> Cheaters always say they need 'space.' It's their number one go-to to use.
> 
> The number two go-to is to claim you are controlling.
> 
> ...


Also, I was initially fighting him on leaving, because it's going completely against what the therapist advised (hugging each other, talking to each other) and because I was doing some reading on the Plan A and Plan B, and if he's addicted to the OW, then being in close proximity this recently to when he supposedly cut off contact is begging trouble. 

BUT, I agree with you. He can go, and he can stay gone for a while until he gets his head out of his ass. I'm going to be working on rearranging my work schedule so I will require him minimally to be with the baby. I don't want to use her as a punishment, but I think he has to realize how little he will actually see us if we legally separate/divorce. 

His mom had sent him an email I saw (a couple weeks ago) where she told him to really think about how he feels about me being with another man, about another man being a father figure to our daughter. I asked him last night if he did think about it. He said no. So I told him to do so. Think about how he feels for me to be with another man. And that if it doesn't tear him up to imagine that, then I'd say there's no hope here at all.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He can be jealous at the thought of you with someone else and still want to be with the OW so jealousy's not a good indication of whether he wants to make your marriage work or won't cheat. 

What he actually wants is to cake-eat (and keep both of you around). Don't let that happen.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Openminded said:


> He can be jealous at the thought of you with someone else and still want to be with the OW so jealousy's not a good indication of whether he wants to make your marriage work or won't cheat.
> 
> What he actually wants is to cake-eat (and keep both of you around). Don't let that happen.


I agree. What I wanted him to think about was if it didn't bother him. I didn't ask him to tell me he'd go ballistic (I didn't even ask him to give me an answer), just wanted him to think about whether or not that bothered him. If it doesn't, then there's no point in continuing. He's been so dishonest I wouldn't have necessarily believed him regardless of what he said if he'd actually answered the question.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

badaboom said:


> . . . *I contacted a divorce attorney this morning* (of course I won't hear back until tomorrow at the earliest) . . .


Dear badaboom,

Three questions:

1. Have you spoken to the attorney yet?

2. Have you retained and instructed him/her to file the divorce papers?

3. If not, why not?

Seriously, your H sounds like a good-for-nothing bum. Maybe he is; maybe he isn't. The best way to find out is to hit him with divorce papers. If he's a stand-up guy, this will snap him out of his self-absorption, get him to start taking you seriously and possibly even set him on the road to becoming a decent husband and father. If he's not, you will know immediately because being served will not change his attitude (i.e., he will continue to treat you like an impediment to his happiness).

Best to file now, IMO, because you're not going to figure out what kind of guy he is unless and until you hit him over the head with the proverbial 2x4.

Wishing you the best possible outcome.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

carmen ohio said:


> Dear badaboom,
> 
> Three questions:
> 
> ...


No, they have not gotten back to me. I sent another email a couple of hours ago. If I don't hear back from them I will call next week.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

badaboom said:


> I agree. What I wanted him to think about was if it didn't bother him. I didn't ask him to tell me he'd go ballistic (I didn't even ask him to give me an answer), just wanted him to think about whether or not that bothered him. If it doesn't, then there's no point in continuing. He's been so dishonest I wouldn't have necessarily believed him regardless of what he said if he'd actually answered the question.


That's always the problem when dealing with a cheater -- you never know if they are really telling the truth. That's why trusting them is so difficult.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

badaboom said:


> No, they have not gotten back to me. I sent another email a couple of hours ago. If I don't hear back from them I will call next week.


As a (retired) lawyer, I would strongly recommend that you contact another law firm. If an attorney's office does not return the calls of a prospective client, the chances are that you will have a hard time contacting them once you have given them a retainer.

Check with your state or county bar association for a list of family law attorneys in your area and/or use a web service like Lawyers.com. Try to get some recommendations before giving a retainer and, by all means, ask questions about how responsive they are (i.e., how long it usually takes them to respond to phone calls and e-mail messages).


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

carmen ohio said:


> As a (retired) lawyer, I would strongly recommend that you contact another law firm. If an attorney's office does not return the calls of a prospective client, the chances are that you will have a hard time contacting them once you have given them a retainer.
> 
> Check with your state or county bar association for a list of family law attorneys in your area and/or use a web service like Lawyers.com. Try to get some recommendations before giving a retainer and, by all means, ask questions about how responsive they are (i.e., how long it usually takes them to respond to phone calls and e-mail messages).


I strongly second this recommendation. Please forget about the attorney that you have already contacted.

I know you want your husband to turn around, but he is putting it all on you. His behavior is not that of someone who has your best interests at heart of even loves you. His behavior is unacceptable. Do you really want to be treated this way? You don't have to.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Thank you all, I will contact another attorney (or a few). 

He is leaving tomorrow - though he says he will talk to his therapist tomorrow and if she says she doesn't think he should leave, he won't. We'll see about that. I told him that if he leaves, he doesn't get to just come back when he decides he wants to. We will discuss and he may or may not be allowed back. I'm torn between rearranging my work schedule so he doesn't have to do daycare drop-off, pick-up, and not doing so and making him have to do it. I think for this week, he needs to do so. Then we'll see how I feel. I don't want to make things easy on him - I leave at 6:30 in the morning, so he needs to be here by 6. 

I asked him if he was going to see the OW, he said "I don't know." I said that if he does that, then that's it. I will not tolerate that when he told me he was done with her. And as soon as he's going to be nearby, he's even thinking about seeing her. I don't know about working past him even thinking about it. I've been reading about it being like an addiction, but I can't help him with that. I can only tell him how I feel. He says he wants to leave so he can see if he misses it (me, us, being here, etc, I don't know). 

I appreciate everyone working with me through this - as I think everyone else is seeing the end I'm still not completely willing to see. I want to give him the chance to be the husband I need, but I don't see it happening. I just can't bring myself to end it at this point. I do have my limits, and we're getting close.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He wants to leave so he can see the OW. Period. Everything he comes up with is straight from the cheater's script. 

You shouldn't trust anything he says. He's deep in the fog.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Consider yourself fortunate that he is seeing someone else. He's a cheat with no intentions in seeking help, changing or wanting to stop the affair. Cheaters remain cheaters. My first husband did to me much what you are dealing with right now. Told me that the affair he was having was going down hill, told me he loved me, still wanted to have sex with me. It was all lies. He ended up cheating on her, they split after 3 years. He remarried a very young girl, he cheated on her and she divorced him. He's since been in serious relationships and has cheated on everyone. Don't put yourself thru it. Get yourself a good attorney and go thru with the divorce.


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

badaboom said:


> I appreciate everyone working with me through this - as I think everyone else is seeing the end I'm still not completely willing to see


The end doesn't have to be an inevitability but you have to stop being so obliging and accomodating towards your husband's indecisiveness and mistreatment of you.

He doesn't fear losing you because he knows that you'll still take him back if he decides to return. He is basically afforded pursuing and showing interest in another woman. If he knows for certain that you are willing and ready to move on without him then he might change his tune, it's not guaranteed because his feelings aren't at all invested in your marriage.

He should still fulfill his parental responsibilities, he may be a crappy husband at the moment but you shouldn't rearrange your schedule to make being an absentee father easier for him.

Steel your resolve and move formward.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Locke.Stratos said:


> The end doesn't have to be an inevitability but you have to stop being so obliging and accomodating towards your husband's indecisiveness and mistreatment of you.
> 
> He doesn't fear losing you because he knows that you'll still take him back if he decides to return. He is basically afforded pursuing and showing interest in another woman. If he knows for certain that you are willing and ready to move on without him then he might change his tune, it's not guaranteed because his feelings aren't at all invested in your marriage.
> 
> ...



I think it does. He just admitted he's given up. He doesn't want to give us a chance (me to fix what I broke in our marriage, him to rebuild my trust in him). He just doesn't care. He's going to stay with friend for the next month, until I go on my work trip (then he'll be at home with the baby). We're going to go to marriage counseling and individual during that time. When I get back from my work trip, we'll discuss how we want to move forward. I'm done chasing him. He knows where I stand. 

And I agree, I'm not letting him off the hook for daycare duty.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Did you heart sink when he told you he didn't know whether he would see the other woman? 
You should be furious. He is admitting (cheater's admission) that he will.

Good for you in not letting him off the hook for child care. He has to see what this is going to be like. Do not rearrange one thing for him. Do not collect things he left behind, do not make extra's for him, even if its something the kids like. You are not being mean. It is the new reality and it takes some getting used to.


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

badaboom said:


> I think it does. He just admitted he's given up. He doesn't want to give us a chance (me to fix what I broke in our marriage, him to rebuild my trust in him). He just doesn't care. He's going to stay with friend for the next month, until I go on my work trip (then he'll be at home with the baby). We're going to go to marriage counseling and individual during that time. When I get back from my work trip, we'll discuss how we want to move forward. I'm done chasing him. He knows where I stand.
> 
> And I agree, I'm not letting him off the hook for daycare duty.


You've done and said all that you can and you've let your wishes and feelings be known. You should never have to chase someone that you're in a relationship with, that alone should tell you that they're not in it. Maybe he'll reconsider, maybe he won't but your happiness should not be dependent on the whims of another being.

Moving on and letting go won't be easy. You'll grieve the loss of the relationship but you will get through it. Focus on yourself now and take care of your emotional, physical and psychological well-being. Be patient with yourself, sleep properly, eat healthy, exercise and try to engage in activities that you enjoy and seek solace in your friends and family.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

badaboom said:


> Thank you all, I will contact another attorney (or a few).
> 
> He is leaving tomorrow - though he says he will talk to his therapist tomorrow and if she says she doesn't think he should leave, he won't. We'll see about that. *I told him that if he leaves, he doesn't get to just come back when he decides he wants to. We will discuss and he may or may not be allowed back.* I'm torn between rearranging my work schedule so he doesn't have to do daycare drop-off, pick-up, and not doing so and making him have to do it. I think for this week, he needs to do so. Then we'll see how I feel. *I don't want to make things easy on him* - I leave at 6:30 in the morning, so he needs to be here by 6.
> 
> ...





badaboom said:


> I think it does. He just admitted he's given up. He doesn't want to give us a chance (me to fix what I broke in our marriage, him to rebuild my trust in him). He just doesn't care. He's going to stay with friend for the next month, until I go on my work trip (then he'll be at home with the baby). We're going to go to marriage counseling and individual during that time. When I get back from my work trip, we'll discuss how we want to move forward. *I'm done chasing him. He knows where I stand. *
> 
> And I agree, *I'm not letting him off the hook for daycare duty.*


badaboom,

I think you've turned the corner. You now sound like someone who knows the score and, while not having given up totally on your WH, realizes it's a long shot at this point that he will ever be the man he needs to be.

You still have a ways to go before your life starts to settle down but, hopefully, you now know that that day will come.

Wishing you the best.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Hello - It's been quite a few weeks and I find that everyone here has been very helpful and supportive, even if you all are not in agreement with my decision. I really appreciate that. 

My husband is still out of the house. He's been talking to her off and on, but asserts he has not seen her. I'm not sure yet if I believe him. Our therapist on Thursday told him there's no point in lying. This is the same session in which he wanted to talk about a legal separation. So this is why I know he doesn't really want to leave. He is embarrassed. He can't deal with the guilt and shame of what he did, so his ridiculously immature response is to leave. 

I want to make my marriage work. I want us to fix the problems. I've been in therapy since I found out, and she's helping me deal with his crap and deal with my own part in the problems in the marriage. The problem right now is I waver daily on how I feel about trying to make my marriage work when I don't have a partner that can even say he wants to try. But he's not leaving. 

I've already decided I'm not going to do the work. He's been so lazy about all of this, if he wants a divorce, he's going to have to do it. I've got my lawyer ready to go when I send in the retainer (it's a lot of $$ so I'm not writing that check until I have to).

This f***cking guy - tells me he wants a legal separation, then two days later asks if he can set up his drum set in the basement. The drum set has not been set up in 4 years, and he thinks I'd say yes to that right now when he's telling me he doesn't want our house to be *our* house anymore? I'm working on being non-confrontational, since that's what sends him into a tailspin, so I just said "we can talk about it" and he didn't bring it up again. 

He has severe depression and most likely a mid-life crisis. He's a mess and our therapist wants to get him on medication and into counseling (which he is still not in). She has asked him twice now not to make any decisions until he gets some help. I am so irritated that he's repeatedly told me he was looking for a therapist but then didn't find anyone. Said he wanted to "try it by himself" - he's being a f***ing idiot. He just doesn't want anyone to lead him to have to acknowledge how wrong he's been. 

So basically, I know a lot of people won't agree with this, but I want to try all I can to make our marriage work and not break up our family because he's having a crisis. And I really need support in this, because there's a lot of opinions of, why would you stay with someone who treats you like this? And really, it's for my daughter and for me. At this point in time I cannot stomach the thought of splitting time with her. She's already showing some behavioral issues and is constantly asking for one of us when the other has her. 

Our therapist was saying something about 50/50 split - for a toddler, I don't think she should be shuttled around that much and I really hope the courts agree. I didn't tell him yet and probably won't until we go to mediation or get the lawyers involved (if it comes to that), but I will fight that. He left us. He runs away when it gets too pleasant because he can't deal. 

Also, the therapist was pushing for him to video chat with her on the nights he doesn't see her. Like she keeps telling me that I have to facilitate that - could that be only because she knows the relationship with both parents is important, or do you think she's trying to quietly push him to stay engaged with his family?


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

If you can emotionally detach from him, you stand a better chance of coming ahead no matter if the marry survives or not.


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## jelly_bean (Sep 23, 2014)

badaboom said:


> Our therapist was saying something about 50/50 split - for a toddler, I don't think she should be shuttled around that much and I really hope the courts agree. I didn't tell him yet and probably won't until we go to mediation or get the lawyers involved (if it comes to that), but I will fight that. He left us. He runs away when it gets too pleasant because he can't deal.


I just wanted to let you know as a Mother who has now going through divorce number 2. I did a 50/50 split on both. My 17 year old son was 2 when we separated and he is as close to perfect teenager as you could hope.

That being said that is because his father and I were able to put aside our feelings of pain, anger, and resentment to ensure we could communicate effectively to raise our son. After a few years my ex and I could easily call each other friends. I know that seems completely impossible right now but it can happen.

Every situation is different and if your gut is telling you that your husband is not emotionally stable to have that much access to your child then stick to your gut feeling but if it is because you are upset with him for leaving you then I implore you to not punish your child for the sins of the parent. My mother did that to my brother and I and I truly believe that is a primary factor in why I have co-dependency issues and end up in unhealthy relationships.

My two cents worth


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

jelly_bean said:


> I just wanted to let you know as a Mother who has now going through divorce number 2. I did a 50/50 split on both. My 17 year old son was 2 when we separated and he is as close to perfect teenager as you could hope.
> 
> That being said that is because his father and I were able to put aside our feelings of pain, anger, and resentment to ensure we could communicate effectively to raise our son. After a few years my ex and I could easily call each other friends. I know that seems completely impossible right now but it can happen.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your feedback. I really do appreciate objective opinions on this. At the moment, during the separation, I don't have any intention of allowing 50/50 if I can help it. Not while he's in such need of help. We have months before we have to come to a final custody agreement in the divorce (assuming we get there) so either I'll feel more comfortable with him keeping her 50% of the time, or I won't, time will hopefully tell. At least at this point he's said that he would not introduce my daughter to his girlfriend until it was quite serious. That's going to be in writing anywhere it can be, as protecting my daughter is paramount. And right now, I can't trust his judgment.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

bada, we are not telling you to be strong and resolute so that you can leave him. We are telling you this because psychologically, it's the only way to get him to CHOOSE you. The more you are nice to him, the more you tell him it's ok to do this to you.

He needs to SEE that he has to respect you, in order to DESERVE you. And the only way he can respect you is if YOU respect you first. 

And the way you respect yourself is simple: "If you won't choose me - and only me - I respect myself too much to give myself to you. You need to choose right now - me or other women. And if you don't choose me, I am removing myself from your life. If you DO choose me, I will stand beside you through thick and thin. But not if you bring other women into our lives."


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

turnera said:


> bada, we are not telling you to be strong and resolute so that you can leave him. We are telling you this because psychologically, it's the only way to get him to CHOOSE you. The more you are nice to him, the more you tell him it's ok to do this to you.
> 
> He needs to SEE that he has to respect you, in order to DESERVE you. And the only way he can respect you is if YOU respect you first.
> 
> And the way you respect yourself is simple: "If you won't choose me - and only me - I respect myself too much to give myself to you. You need to choose right now - me or other women. And if you don't choose me, I am removing myself from your life. If you DO choose me, I will stand beside you through thick and thin. But not if you bring other women into our lives."


That is a wonderful way to put it. Thank your so much. I will be using that line next time we talk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Badaboom, in response to your last post, I may have mentioned this before but your husband reminds me alot of my ex....we have been divorced 28 years.

Here's the thing, you have to do what is good for you and at this point you sound confused. You obviously love this man and are angry that he had the affair, understandable. He had the affair, you are not to blame. You do not need to make that up to him. You do not need to kick yourself and feel you did something wrong that pushed him to this woman. Men are attracted to women and vise versa. Some love to flirt with danger and others like the chase and temptation of an affair but in any case this is about your husband, please understand that. You have your end that you have to deal with but he was the one that made this choice and he needs to figure out why. If he is addicted to the chase or he can't keep himself from wanting to be with other women this situation will never change no matter what you do on your part. You see what I am saying here? Your husband has some real serious soul searching to do and if he does not you are only spinning your wheels in the mud trying to make a difference.

He's coming back to you because he doesn't want to lose you but that doesn't mean he has resolved any of his inner turmoil. By turmoil, I am speaking of the desire that lead him to the affair in the first place. He want to have you and his fun and if he is not seeing this woman my next thought would be what he's doing at night in his spare time.....is he hooked to a dating site? The man broke a huge trust and he left.

He wants to set up his drums in the basement, your heart gets pulled because you think he still loves you (and he might) but this is his way of keeping you for him. You have to place boundaries on how he is treating you, you do not deserve this and he knows he can slowly melt you into what he wants but that doesn't change him or his games.

He needs to come clean on why he had the affair and if he blames that on you he has not come clean. he needs to come face to face with his desires that lead him to that woman and why he crossed that line. He needs to confess this to you. he has to see the inner side of himself. You'll see if it is BS. If he is giving you a line then he is not ready to face himself and what he needs to deal with. Until that point comes, if ever, there is no sense in trying to make this work.

Sometimes we have to let go of a person for the sake of love for our own self. I truly loved my first husband, he was my high school sweetheart but I was not going to put up with an affair and his desire to be with other women, I was not going to share my husband with anyone else....just was not going to happen. When he told me he knew what he was doing was wrong but that he liked what he was doing and was excited from the chase he spoke the truth to me and with that I realized I loved him enough to let him go and let him seek what he desired. He's ruined every relationship since by cheating.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

AVR1962 said:


> Badaboom, in response to your last post, I may have mentioned this before but your husband reminds me alot of my ex....we have been divorced 28 years.
> 
> Here's the thing, you have to do what is good for you and at this point you sound confused. You obviously love this man and are angry that he had the affair, understandable. He had the affair, you are not to blame. You do not need to make that up to him. You do not need to kick yourself and feel you did something wrong that pushed him to this woman. Men are attracted to women and vise versa. Some love to flirt with danger and others like the chase and temptation of an affair but in any case this is about your husband, please understand that. You have your end that you have to deal with but he was the one that made this choice and he needs to figure out why. If he is addicted to the chase or he can't keep himself from wanting to be with other women this situation will never change no matter what you do on your part. You see what I am saying here? Your husband has some real serious soul searching to do and if he does not you are only spinning your wheels in the mud trying to make a difference.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for sharing your story. I also see the parallels - my husband liked the attention, he told me that. He still does. I suspect right now he likes the feeling of me fighting with another woman over him. 

He reconnected with the OW on instagram - I asked him why, he said because he wanted to and that he would not remove her again. I shut down at that point. I'm not fighting him on this anymore. If he wants to put her above me, then that's it. I'm going to share in counseling on Thursday and say what the other poster said about standing by him and working through everything, as long as I'm the only woman. But not like this. 

He alternates between blaming me and taking responsibility. He says "I just don't feel the same way anymore" (about me) but yet he won't just leave. I know he's full of it. He's ashamed and is trying to run away. I also know that he wants to separate so that he can date her but be able to come back to me if it doesn't work out. He doesn't know how I know when he's lying, but he has a tell. I called him out on that in counseling last week and you could see his attempt to hide that that's exactly what was on his mind. I made it clear that if he wants to do that, there's no coming back. He can't go dating another woman and keep me as Plan B. I really do have more self-respect than that. I honestly suspect that she said she would not see him unless we were legally separated.

I know he loves me, in some way. I also know that somewhere along the way he lost respect for me. I don't see him wanting to set up the drums as a sign that he loves me, I saw it for what it was - an attempt to still claim ownership in our home and family. I didn't say no because I wanted to see what he would say if I said we could talk about it. Talking scares him because it means he has to own up to his feelings and he can't handle that right now. 

I asked him to tell me next time he feels the need/desire to talk to her, and to talk to me instead. He said he'd "try". I don't know what I'm doing, but I guess my thought is to interject myself between that relationship. He just is unwilling to understand that this is an addiction. He says that he cares for her a lot and his feelings are real. The same feelings that made him treat his wife like **** and abandon his family. If that's his real feelings, then I suppose we are better off without him.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

You really should keep in mind that there are two separate issus going on. There's the issue of him wanting YOU, which he may or may not (at least not enough to give up other women), but there's also the issue of the life he has with you. His home, his daughter, his standing as a family man..... these are separate from the relationship with you and are more likely what he doesn't want give up. In his fantasy world he'd keep all these things and just have side wh0res. He can't keep this life with his hoe.

Keep this in mind as you make your decision, that he likely wants his life but not necessarily you with it..... you just have to be part of the package. Is that really how you want to live? 
FYI, I divorced my boys father when they were 5 and 2. Today they're 14 and 11 and doing great.

You might do a lot more to save things if you cut him off now and let his hoe experience day to day life with him. She only gets him in small amounts at his best. And let him deal with what life will be like with her. You're allowing him to dither and feel out whether he can make a life with her, knowing you're waiting if it doesn't with out. Doesn't make you look like the prize you really are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> You really should keep in mind that there are two separate issus going on. There's the issue of him wanting YOU, which he may or may not (at least not enough to give up other women), but there's also the issue of the life he has with you. His home, his daughter, his standing as a family man..... these are separate from the relationship with you and are more likely what he doesn't want give up. In his fantasy world he'd keep all these things and just have side wh0res. He can't keep this life with his hoe.
> 
> Keep this in mind as you make your decision, that he likely wants his life but not necessarily you with it..... you just have to be part of the package. Is that really how you want to live?
> FYI, I divorced my boys father when they were 5 and 2. Today they're 14 and 11 and doing great.
> ...


You are absolutely right. Thank you. I needed to hear this and keep my mind straight. 

Your point about the "family man" hits something for me - I think that's why he continues to lie about his relationship with her. He wants to pretend that we're breaking up because we aren't in love anymore, not because he's dumping me for another woman (even though obviously it can be both). Because that is just not something a good husband and father would do and he doesn't want to really admit that that's what he's doing when he finally leaves.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

badaboom

I see many similarities in your husband and my WW, both are struggling to overcome their guilt of how they destroyed a family. My WW has extreme guilt that has provided hurdles in our reconciliation. Because of this guilt and shame it comes across as uncaring in many ways. I have told my WW repeatedly that at some time she will have to forgive herself for her actions. My WW saw who I was and what I was well before her affair. Her family has treated me very well since meeting them and told my wife she was getting a great man. Her friends were envious of her because of who she was marrying as my friends were envious of me that I was marrying her. 

I was always liked and considered to be a very fun, compassionate, strong man, who cared for others. But my WW affair destroyed that man, weakened me to new levels, and no longer wanting to be around people. Her affair destroyed almost everything about me. I was so destroyed that many times I knew death to be my only answer. But with therapy I have started to come back, to feel like a man again after so long of being lost. Slowly my humor and interactions with people has returned. One assignment I actually had in therapy was to have two interactions with co-workers in a single day. I was totally withdrawn with what my WW did to me and my family. 

The point I'm trying to make here is my WW feels guilty, remorseful, regretful for what she has done. She was a part of the dynamic duo (eye roll) that destroyed two families. This is her consequence for her choice. My WW saw how she destroyed the man that loved her unconditionally and that her family loved so much. The guilt has eaten her alive for her choices, the remorse is overwhelming to her and she breaks down crying each and every day. She has had a front row seat to all the consequences of her affair and the destruction it has created. My WW has to change who she is, she needs to embrace this change and learn to love herself again. 

My WW has to change her communication skills to be vocal to me if I become to consumed in daily life, I need to do the same. My WW has to learn many more things as do I, and that is simply something very difficult to do. Change in yourself is not easy, it's not with my WW and appears to be the same with your husband, in fact change requires strength in yourself. I consider my WW very strong as while watching from her front row seat she hasn't turned away but met these issues head on. That's not to say she hasn't staggered or knocked back a few steps but she continues to push forward. All the while I stand as a pillar of strength and encourage her on her recovery. I think your husband just hasn't found the strength to keep pushing forward and taking the easy way with the OW.

However, I think he knows his future with the OW is built on fantasy and most likely won't survive in daily life stresses. Therefore he is staying with you waiting for you to commit to the marriage or divorce, but I see that you both put that decision on the other. At some point one of you will need to make this decision in the future. Neither decision is easy and both are very traumatic, however a decision will need to be made. You seem to be an intelligent person as does your husband, although he is making terrible decisions at the moment. Unfortunately you are most likely going to have to make this decision. Just my opinion of your situation for whatever it's worth. Best of luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> You might do a lot more to save things if you cut him off now and let his hoe experience day to day life with him. She only gets him in small amounts at his best. And let him deal with what life will be like with her.


This is really key. She's a fantasy, and he only sees her in fantasy-type settings - dates, spending money on her, letting her love on him.

Let him have to hold her head over the toilet when she has the flu. Let him see her bloated and scratching her belly and bad breath after a night partying. Let her yell at him to take out the trash...while meanwhile he gets NONE of you, so that the only time he sees you is kid handoff - and you are dressed great, smell great, and on your way out the door to some great exciting new thing in your life that HE doesn't get to join in on. 

See the difference?

The best, fastest way to get a cheater to quit - outside of exposing (you DID expose, right?) - is to remove yourself from their life until they choose to stop cheating. In fact, him seeing you go straight to a lawyer because you don't deserve this **** would make it happen even faster. 

Bottom line, you have to be willing to lose the marriage, to save it. As long as he knows you'll do anything to stay married to him, he has no reason to care.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

The last MC I went to before my divorce, the one who initially diagnosed my ex mental disorders and referred him to a psychiatrist for further help told us that his mental disorder *explained* but did not *excuse* his abusive behavior. My ex was to do the hard work of admitting his abuse and trying to make amends. He refused. Still does.

So can you explain why should your H give up the OW? He still has his home, his wife, his child. Nothing has happened, nothing has changed. Why should he?


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

drifting on said:


> badaboom
> 
> I see many similarities in your husband and my WW, both are struggling to overcome their guilt of how they destroyed a family. My WW has extreme guilt that has provided hurdles in our reconciliation. Because of this guilt and shame it comes across as uncaring in many ways. I have told my WW repeatedly that at some time she will have to forgive herself for her actions. My WW saw who I was and what I was well before her affair. Her family has treated me very well since meeting them and told my wife she was getting a great man. Her friends were envious of her because of who she was marrying as my friends were envious of me that I was marrying her.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing. I'm not sure I agree that he's waiting for me to commit to the marriage or divorce. I've already told him I'm committed to working through this. I think he wants me to make it easier for him by agreeing with him there's no hope and we should just give up without even trying. And I refuse. I do agree that it requires strength to be able to own up to his mistakes and work through them and to work through all of his internal turmoil (as another poster mentioned). And he doesn't have it right now. He's definitely taking the easy route.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

turnera said:


> This is really key. She's a fantasy, and he only sees her in fantasy-type settings - dates, spending money on her, letting her love on him.
> 
> Let him have to hold her head over the toilet when she has the flu. Let him see her bloated and scratching her belly and bad breath after a night partying. Let her yell at him to take out the trash...while meanwhile he gets NONE of you, so that the only time he sees you is kid handoff - and you are dressed great, smell great, and on your way out the door to some great exciting new thing in your life that HE doesn't get to join in on.
> 
> ...


Yes I do. I just had my counseling appointment. I know I still don't want to admit it, but it's over. He doesn't want to do the work, he doesn't want to accept the blame, there's nothing more to do. I can't make him do so. 

I'm going to make it very clear at our final marriage counseling appointment that I had/have every intention of making our marriage work, but only with a partner that is only my partner. And I know the outcome will be a separation. And that will lead to divorce. He's got another thing coming if he thinks that he can hide the fact that he wants to separate so he can see where things go with another woman. When we separate, it's because we're getting a divorce. 

BUT I'm not doing the damn legwork. I've done so much legwork throughout our relationship and even in dealing with these issues. He wants to leave, he can take care of it. I've got my lawyer covered.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

badaboom said:


> Yes I do. I just had my counseling appointment. I know I still don't want to admit it, but it's over. He doesn't want to do the work, he doesn't want to accept the blame, there's nothing more to do. I can't make him do so.
> 
> I'm going to make it very clear at our final marriage counseling appointment that I had/have every intention of making our marriage work, but only with a partner that is only my partner. And I know the outcome will be a separation. And that will lead to divorce. He's got another thing coming if he thinks that he can hide the fact that he wants to separate so he can see where things go with another woman. When we separate, it's because we're getting a divorce.
> 
> BUT I'm not doing the damn legwork. I've done so much legwork throughout our relationship and even in dealing with these issues. He wants to leave, he can take care of it. I've got my lawyer covered.


Badaboom, I want to be sure I understand what you mean in your last paragraph. You've got your lawyer covered. That's good. But what legwork are you talking about? Getting the separation papers hashed out?

All I can share is what I went through with an emotionally disturbed ex. He said he'd help with the papers. He didn't. He said he'd come to the attorney's office. He didn't. He said he would separate the bank accounts and credit cards. He didn't. So basically he spoke the words he thought I wanted to hear to get off his back, and then did what he damn well wanted to. I ended up doing everything. Is that what you are talking about?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

The legwork isn't for him, it's for you. So you can quit living in limbo. He's not going to file because he wants to keep his wife as plan B while he tries out his skvnk. 

And for you to send a very clear message that as things stand you are no longer an option. 

Heck, I'd bet the only reason he even wants a legal separation is so he can claim he's separated while he carries on with his trash in hopes that he won't look like a complete pos, but he doesn't want to let you go until he's sure.

You can tell him that until you're blue in the face but as long as you're married he's got hb status and an open door, and you can't even move on while he fvcks someone else because you're married and a decent human being. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If I had a dime for every BS who said 'if HE/SHE wants to be away from me so bad, HE/SHE can do the filing. It won't be me doing it. I won't be the bad guy!' I'd be rich.

But guess what? In the 15+ years I've been on these forums, I can count on one hand the number of cheaters who ended up doing the filing.

Why? Because the BS finally wised up and realized it isn't about who 'looks bad' or who's the symbolic ender of the marriage or any of that mess that's driving your statement...the same ones every other BS makes. The BSs who end up filing do so because they want their POWER back, their CONTROL back, and they want to be able to look themselves in the mirror again with pride and see a person who refused to let some dirtbag, who they used to respect and love, dictate what happens in their lives.

You'll reach that point, too...eventually. Just don't wait so long that it hurts you financially or hurts the kids emotionally.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

turnera said:


> If I had a dime for every BS who said 'if HE/SHE wants to be away from me so bad, HE/SHE can do the filing. It won't be me doing it. I won't be the bad guy!' I'd be rich.
> 
> But guess what? In the 15+ years I've been on these forums, I can count on one hand the number of cheaters who ended up doing the filing.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I know. I'm going to end up doing it. We're going to our (final) counseling appointment on Thursday and I'm going to express my stance and that a separation is probably for the best. I didn't want to because I wanted to force him to have to either do it himself or not and have to deal with the repurcussions with his girlfriend. But at this point, I know i'm just prolonging the inevitable, so what's the point? 
Lifeistooshort is right - he wants to be separated so he can feel like less of a **** for trying to have a relationship with someone else while still married to me. 

I really can't believe I married this person that would treat his wife like this.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

badaboom said:


> Yeah, I know. I'm going to end up doing it. We're going to our (final) counseling appointment on Thursday and I'm going to express my stance and that a separation is probably for the best. I didn't want to because I wanted to force him to have to either do it himself or not and have to deal with the repurcussions with his girlfriend. But at this point, I know i'm just prolonging the inevitable, so what's the point?
> Lifeistooshort is right - he wants to be separated so he can feel like less of a **** for trying to have a relationship with someone else while still married to me.
> 
> I really can't believe I married this person that would treat his wife like this.


You didn't. You married a decent bloke who had a good taste in marital partner and who was OK.

But then he died and was replaced by a rather poor copy who had everything your husband had, except for the humanity? Sad to say. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> You didn't. You married a decent bloke who had a good taste in marital partner and who was OK.
> 
> But then he died and was replaced by a rather poor copy who had everything your husband had, except for the humanity? Sad to say.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for saying that. I'm having a really hard time today coming to terms with this situation.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

I can't believe that the last time I will have ever kissed my husband is the night he showed up (several weeks after he left) and tried to get me to have sex with him. I missed him so much, we were kissing, but I refused to go any further and told him I would not have sex with him unless he was back living in our house. And he never even tried to kiss me again. 

He's such a ****. And I'm such an idiot for not getting it then that he was never planning to come back.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

turnera said:


> This is really key. She's a fantasy, and he only sees her in fantasy-type settings - dates, spending money on her, letting her love on him.
> 
> Let him have to hold her head over the toilet when she has the flu. Let him see her bloated and scratching her belly and bad breath after a night partying. Let her yell at him to take out the trash...while meanwhile he gets NONE of you, so that the only time he sees you is kid handoff - and you are dressed great, smell great, and on your way out the door to some great exciting new thing in your life that HE doesn't get to join in on.
> 
> ...


When you say exposing him - Only my sister and my best friend know. Oh and my boss, because I broke down in her office. I've been so embarrassed. And (initially) didn't want to color anyone else's opinions irrevocably, if we did work it out. 

I think I should tell his mom - but I also had been reading the 180 and one of the points is about not trying to get his family involved to rope him him. After we have our next conversation about the separation, I'm not going to by shy about sharing this any more. If I don't tell people, he'll tell people his own version of the truth about why we're separating.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Tell everyone. Now. Don't use his family to manipulate him, but why should you keep this secret? If he's doimg no wrong then whats the problem? 

When you do expose him don't be surprised if he gets mad and tells you that you've just ruined any chance of reconciliation. It's a lie so ignore it.

Besides, if you keep his secrets you allow him to tell everyone how horrible you are and to make himself look good, and he will. He's image conscious. 

And don't forget that a divorce means splitting things and a child support order. Not what he wants.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

badaboom said:


> When you say exposing him - Only my sister and my best friend know. Oh and my boss, because I broke down in her office. I've been so embarrassed. And (initially) didn't want to color anyone else's opinions irrevocably, if we did work it out.
> 
> I think I should tell his mom - but I also had been reading the 180 and one of the points is about not trying to get his family involved to rope him him. After we have our next conversation about the separation, I'm not going to by shy about sharing this any more. If I don't tell people, he'll tell people his own version of the truth about why we're separating.


Tell his mother, not to rope her into changing him but to expose him for what he is doing.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Tell them the truth before he lies to them. They deserve the truth, rather than any lies from him.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Tell them the truth before he lies to them. They deserve the truth, rather than any lies from him.


I agree with this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

badaboom said:


> When you say exposing him - Only my sister and my best friend know. Oh and my boss, because I broke down in her office. I've been so embarrassed. And (initially) didn't want to color anyone else's opinions irrevocably, if we did work it out.


How did I miss this?

Call his parents. Call his siblings. Call his best friend and tell him the truth. Tell your parents. Tell his pastor. Anyone whose respect he craves. This should have been done the first week he left. At this point it won't be as effective but it CAN still have an effect. And you're right - if you don't, he will tell him his spin - you're evil, you're abusive, he suffered for years trying to be a good husband to bad ol' you. And then along came understanding, sweet, innocent OW and he tried oh so hard to deny the real love they felt but in the end, you just drove him away.

Unless you tell them the truth first.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

turnera said:


> How did I miss this?
> 
> Call his parents. Call his siblings. Call his best friend and tell him the truth. Tell your parents. Tell his pastor. Anyone whose respect he craves. This should have been done the first week he left. At this point it won't be as effective but it CAN still have an effect. And you're right - if you don't, he will tell him his spin - you're evil, you're abusive, he suffered for years trying to be a good husband to bad ol' you. And then along came understanding, sweet, innocent OW and he tried oh so hard to deny the real love they felt but in the end, you just drove him away.
> 
> Unless you tell them the truth first.



He did tell his best friend, who I don't believe is too pleased with him. 

We just had our final marriage counseling appointment - I laid it out that I was not fighting this, because I refuse to be a Plan B, to come second to another woman in our marriage. That I would not teach my daughter that it is ok to be treated like this. I also warned him that I would not keep this to myself and I would not lie for him. 

I told his mom and his friend that is also friends with the OW. 

Then I started packing up all his **** that is in my bedroom, because I don't want him in there again, and I don't want him to have a reason or excuse to go in there.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

badaboom said:


> He did tell his best friend, who I don't believe is too pleased with him.
> 
> We just had our final marriage counseling appointment - I laid it out that I was not fighting this, because I refuse to be a Plan B, to come second to another woman in our marriage. That I would not teach my daughter that it is ok to be treated like this. I also warned him that I would not keep this to myself and I would not lie for him.
> 
> ...


How did he take the news?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It doesn't matter who HE tells. It's YOUR job to tell all his important people why this is happening. Do it today.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> How did he take the news?


Silence. His standard M.O. I don't know if he realized I meant I'd tell his mom, but he should have and it's not my fault if that didn't occur to him. 

We went into this session and the counselor asked if anything had changed on his end, and he said no. And then I could just see his posture change when he realized I was agreeing with him and not going to put up with this any longer. I really think he believed he had all the cards and liked that I was fighting another woman for him (might not have been a conscious thought, but I'm sure it was there). 

Too ****ing bad, I'm not fighting another woman for my damn husband. If he's going to be such a ****, then they deserve each other.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

badaboom said:


> Too ****ing bad, I'm not fighting another woman for my damn husband. If he's going to be such a ****, then they deserve each other.


You've crossed over, badaboom. Keep telling yourself this and stay strong. Push him out the door and take care of numero uno.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Good.
You're probably right about him liking, on one level, two women wanting him.

But as is the case with WS, they don't tell the truth. He lies to you, and he almost certainly lies to the OW. She knew he was a married man and gets what she gets. Sadly, he's shown you just how little he wanted the marriage to survive. That could change when reality hits him, who knows.

Tell anyone you like. Your reasons for protecting your spouse have ended.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> Good.
> You're probably right about him liking, on one level, two women wanting him.
> 
> But as is the case with WS, they don't tell the truth. He lies to you, and he almost certainly lies to the OW. She knew he was a married man and gets what she gets. Sadly, he's shown you just how little he wanted the marriage to survive. That could change when reality hits him, who knows.
> ...


Yes, I am positive he's lied to her. And you're right, she gets what she gets and I really don't give a crap what he does to her.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

If you want to be a real b$%#h you could call OW and tell her he's all hers but you feel bad for her because nobody knows better than you what a POS she's getting.

I'm only half joking.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> If you want to be a real b$%#h you could call OW and tell her he's all hers but you feel bad for her because nobody knows better than you what a POS she's getting.
> 
> I'm only half joking.


Ha ha believe me I thought about it. But I'd rather have no contact with her for as long as I possibly can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

badaboom said:


> Ha ha believe me I thought about it. But I'd rather have no contact with her for as long as I possibly can.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I understand. But should you ever change your mind why don't you throw in that while she was good enough for him to fvck he really didn't care about her enough to pursue a divorce from you. Because in the end she's a cheap piece to him, he probably imagined you'd wait for him to decide what he wants.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> I understand. But should you ever change your mind why don't you throw in that while she was good enough for him to fvck he really didn't care about her enough to pursue a divorce from you. Because in the end she's a cheap piece to him, he probably imagined you'd wait for him to decide what he wants.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you're right. I told him today that I hoped one day he could tell me truthfully what the rush was to end our marriage. He said there's no rush, and that it was "just a thought". Still trying to keep me in that plan B slot. And there was my reminder that he really doesn't care about my feelings here. 

I moved all of his stuff out of our bedroom and bathroom last night. At least now he has no reason to go in there again.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Can I get some opinions on this? So last Thursday was when I said that I wasn't going to fight him on the separation, since he clearly was intent on it. 

Since then, he's started on zoloft (I think he started on Sunday). And we spent a few hours all together on both Saturday and Sunday (child oriented things). He was very appreciative that I asked him to join us on Sunday (it was to do something that would be the first time for our daughter, and I felt weird at this stage not including him). 

Now, he's being... weird? He has made sure to hug me several times when we've seen each other, he slipped and called me honey the other night, and last night he was video chatting with baby and then said "I love you guys" when hanging up. 

To be clear - my stupid hope that never went away is trying to rear it's ugly head, and I'm squashing it. What I really want opinions on is if you all think he's backsliding in his behavior toward me because I've been pulling away, or if he's just feeling sad that we're ending, or if he's trying to keep me on the hook. Thoughts??

Edit to add - Also, I made a spreadsheet of financial obligations - maybe it made it more real to him, maybe he doesn't like knowing he's still on the hook for monies. We're supposed to talk about that tomorrow.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

badaboom said:


> What I really want opinions on is if you all think he's backsliding in his behavior toward me because I've been pulling away, or if he's just feeling sad that we're ending, or if he's trying to keep me on the hook. Thoughts??


You cannot read his mind and neither can we. Those are certainly some possibilities. It is understandable that you want your family restored. Don't let that cloud your boundaries. I recommend not saying "I love you back" or allowing long hugs or any kissing. It's not about playing hard to get. It is about self respect and making sure that if he is trying to wiggle his way back into your heart that he is showing true change.
Here is something that might be helpful to you: Should I Stay or Should I Go? - Bonus Materials


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Any time you show strength to a cheater, they want you back. Doesn't mean he's giving up his cheating. Just that he wants BOTH of you, so he tries to 'soften' to you so you stay wrapped around his finger.

Have you called his important people yet and told them he's cheating?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Plan B. Remember that. He'd still like to keep you as plan B.

Continue with the divorce. If you see any real changes down the road you can revisit things. 

Or maybe he wants to feel less like a pos by trying to be nice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

As others have said, he is probably shoring up his plan B option. By holding firm boundaries, you are making it clear that you are not and will not be plan B. It's either all or nothing. Keep that in mind and don't believe anything from him unless he shows true changes. Even if/when he begins to truly change, it will be quite a while before he could prove himself.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Agreed. He's Plan B you.

His life is so much easier and less stressful if ALL the women in his life treat him nicely. So he'll accommodate you to get what he wants.

And he should be sad and remoreseful that his actions have ruined a good marriage. You tried to work this out, you fought for your marriage and he's still seeing the OW. Keep asking yourself how many people should be in your relationship.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Well I don't know what he's doing. 

To answer Turnera's question, yes I told his mom and several friends. 

I think it's not so much plan b as wanting to not feel like the POS he is. He's still not telling me that he's seeing her. Whether it's because there is some part that wants me as plan B or whether he knows that it would be a bad move to do so in terms of the divorce, I'm not sure. I honestly think he doesn't want me to know for the same reason he's leaving me. Because he's ashamed and I'm the one he betrayed, and to own up to more things he's done me wrong, it would just make him feel worse. 

The basement is his domain (sports related junk on the walls, dvd collection, game system). He took down all of the stuff from the walls and boxed up half his dvds (we have a ton). So I'm going to go with still running away. I'm just so disappointed. I really do hope he gets help and becomes a less selfish person - it's probably too late for us, but so he can at least be a better father to our daughter.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> Agreed. He's Plan B you.
> 
> His life is so much easier and less stressful if ALL the women in his life treat him nicely. So he'll accommodate you to get what he wants.
> 
> And he should be sad and remoreseful that his actions have ruined a good marriage. You tried to work this out, you fought for your marriage and he's still seeing the OW. Keep asking yourself how many people should be in your relationship.


I think he is sad, but about how "the marriage is ending", as though he had nothing to do with it. I think back to a few times that he said that, where he'd tell me he was worried we weren't going to make it, as though he had no control over it. I should have known then that it was the beginning of the end. That's how he's operated for I don't know how long - things happen to him. Blaming everything and everyone else. 

And I agree. Every time I feel the hope come sneaking up on me, I remember that he refused to even remove her from instagram. Seriously. That's where he took his stand. Because I didn't want her seeing pictures of my daughter. And his response was, it's not like she hasn't seen pictures of her before. 
Just typed that out and remembered what a ****head thing that was to say to me. I know they're just pictures, and I didn't push it because **** it. But seriously, what an ass.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

CynthiaDe said:


> You cannot read his mind and neither can we. Those are certainly some possibilities. It is understandable that you want your family restored. Don't let that cloud your boundaries. I recommend not saying "I love you back" or allowing long hugs or any kissing. It's not about playing hard to get. It is about self respect and making sure that if he is trying to wiggle his way back into your heart that he is showing true change.
> Here is something that might be helpful to you: Should I Stay or Should I Go? - Bonus Materials


I'm not really allowing long hugs, no kissing, and no "I love you's". 

I'm not sure what to do with the shouldIstayorshouldIgo materials. Do you think it would benefit him at all to read them now? Or is it for me? I'm looking at it and thinking that it could help even if we don't stay together, but I don't know if he's in the right frame of mind to receive them now.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

badaboom said:


> I'm not really allowing long hugs, no kissing, and no "I love you's".
> 
> I'm not sure what to do with the shouldIstayorshouldIgo materials. Do you think it would benefit him at all to read them now? Or is it for me? I'm looking at it and thinking that it could help even if we don't stay together, but I don't know if he's in the right frame of mind to receive them now.


I haven't read the whole thread, but your concern for him is too much. Why care why he is sad, or whether he should read anything? He is the one who screwed up this marriage with his other women and you are still concerned about how he feels? You have to decide what to do for yourself, your future (with your kid), what you want, forget him.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

badaboom said:


> I'm not really allowing long hugs, no kissing, and no "I love you's".
> 
> I'm not sure what to do with the shouldIstayorshouldIgo materials. Do you think it would benefit him at all to read them now? Or is it for me? I'm looking at it and thinking that it could help even if we don't stay together, but I don't know if he's in the right frame of mind to receive them now.


No. I don't think you should share them with him. The idea is to show you what true repentance looks like, so you don't get sucked into his antics.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

CynthiaDe said:


> No. I don't think you should share them with him. The idea is to show you what true repentance looks like, so you don't get sucked into his antics.


Oh I see. Yes thank you very helpful. I'm finely seeing parallels to his behavior after I found out. Mad at me for not getting over it and for still being mad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

badaboom said:


> Well I don't know what he's doing.
> 
> To answer Turnera's question, yes I told his mom and several friends.


Kids? Brothers, sisters? Pastor? Uncle, aunt? Father?

And you shouldn't be allowing ANY hugs. He fired you. He is NOT your friend. He is your enemy. Would you hug the girl who torched your prom dress the night before prom?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Why have you not exposed to her husband? You really believe your POS hubby telling you they are separated? If they were she could be stringing him along in false reconcilliation. Made sure OBS knows.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Divinely Favored said:


> Why have you not exposed to her husband? You really believe your POS hubby telling you they are separated? If they were she could be stringing him along in false reconcilliation. Made sure OBS knows.


Do actually, but you make a good point. I just contacted the OBS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

badaboom said:


> Because he's ashamed and I'm the one he betrayed, and to own up to more things he's done me wrong, it would just make him feel worse.


IMO, he didn't just betray you, he betrayed your daughter as well. He is the one who CHOSE to seek out another woman, knowing that it would destroy his marriage and rip apart his child's world. He CHOSE not to try any other course of action. He CHOSE not to fight for his family and his marriage

And you still give him credit because he feels bad.....


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> IMO, he didn't just betray you, he betrayed your daughter as well. He is the one who CHOSE to seek out another woman, knowing that it would destroy his marriage and rip apart his child's world. He CHOSE not to try any other course of action. He CHOSE not to fight for his family and his marriage
> 
> And you still give him credit because he feels bad.....


You're absolutely right. I am disgusted about how he has treated his daughter in all of this. His selfishness is almost amazing. I can't believe he would not do everything he could to give her a stable home. All he's talked about is himself. 

I have emphasized that (that he made his choices) many times. I spoke with our therapist last night and she said the same thing. So like I said, I really hope that he will at least make progress in therapy towards being a responsible father, for our daughter's sake. 

I'm not giving him credit for anything - I'm trying to understand motives and respond properly. In the beginning, I said he was a wonderful father, but now I'm not sure. He was great with grocery shopping, cleaning, etc. But in the same way he's been a bad husband, he's been a bad father. He's incapable of being there for either of us emotionally.

This guy - he texted me this morning talking about this weekend and asked if I had anything to do on Sunday so he could stay with our daughter. I said, no, it's mother's day and I'm spending it with my child. And his response was, oh yeah. Do you want me to make you lunch? He just doesn't get it. 
I declined.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Well, we all knew it, but now I really know it. He's been dating her for a month. Says they're not dating because they haven't "done anything". How old are we again? 

I finally was able to get in touch with the OW's husband. I know he's the BS, but what he said just scares me all over again thinking that this woman could be in my daughter's life. He said that she's cheated on him off and on for 4 years. And he sent me pictures that she's been posting on instagram of her with my husband. What sort of disgusting person does that? They are appalling. I can't believe this is the person I married, committed my life to, had a child with. What the ****?


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, judging from the OW's behavioral patterns, it is probably best to let him have her. Let him own the new reality he created, and let him lose a lot to get it.

Do not blame yourself for marrying him, you did not have enough info to know how things will play out. You only know what he has shown, what you have gathered, and some issues do not fully manifest themselves until adulthood. Factors that are beyond your control of knowing. We make decisions on what data we have, and love is great at creating a haze around our partner so it is hard to see with great clarity.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Mr.Fisty said:


> Well, judging from the OW's behavioral patterns, it is probably best to let him have her. Let him own the new reality he created, and let him lose a lot to get it.
> 
> Do not blame yourself for marrying him, you did not have enough info to know how things will play out. You only know what he has shown, what you have gathered, and some issues do not fully manifest themselves until adulthood. Factors that are beyond your control of knowing. We make decisions on what data we have, and love is great at creating a haze around our partner so it is hard to see with great clarity.


Thank you, I really needed to hear that. I know now that he's weak and pathetic. This is how he handles the pressure of being an adult with a family? It's sad. 

And I agree, these two clearly deserve each other.

I don't know when to confront him about this. I just really want him to know that I know what he's doing. I'm so sick of being lied to. It's like a compulsion, he just won't stop. Like so many people said, I do think he was still trying to keep me as a Plan B. 

And I hate that I still want my husband back, but I think he's gone for good. I think even if he did end their relationship and want to get back together with me, he'd run as soon as I let him know he'd actually have to work to come back. Pathetic.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

badaboom said:


> Thank you, I really needed to hear that. I know now that he's weak and pathetic. This is how he handles the pressure of being an adult with a family? It's sad.
> 
> And I agree, these two clearly deserve each other.
> 
> ...


I really feel for you and what you are going through but you have to let him go and do the work on moving on so that you can be strong for yourself and your daughter. You have to emotionally detach and take all steps to remove him from your life. Do the 180 on him and go dark on him. If ever there is a chance, he must do ALL the work and unless he matures before then, that is highly unlikely. Why should you put up with everything he has thrown at you. You must respect yourself first and foremost. He has no respect for you or your child, period.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

aine said:


> I really feel for you and what you are going through but you have to let him go and do the work on moving on so that you can be strong for yourself and your daughter. You have to emotionally detach and take all steps to remove him from your life. Do the 180 on him and go dark on him. If ever there is a chance, he must do ALL the work and unless he matures before then, that is highly unlikely. Why should you put up with everything he has thrown at you. You must respect yourself first and foremost. He has no respect for you or your child, period.


I know. I'm really trying. I'm only talking to him about things that pertain to our daughter. And being polite when he says anything else, but just stopping the conversation if it doesn't have to do with her or the separation. 

I really am trying. I started journaling so I don't unload on everyone else or on him - though I am telling more people about what he's doing. I want him to know how much he's hurt me, but I also feel like that's just giving him power over me, and I don't want him to have any more than he already does. 

It's astounding how he says he wants a separation, he's dating someone else, yet he hasn't gotten a place to live, has made no effort towards actually finalizing anything. Doesn't have a lawyer, etc etc. Same thing that the OW's husband said she did. These shady f****s.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

badaboom said:


> Thank you, I really needed to hear that. I know now that he's weak and pathetic. This is how he handles the pressure of being an adult with a family? It's sad.
> 
> And I agree, these two clearly deserve each other.
> 
> ...


 You have married someone who lacks impulse control, or he really gets a high from doing something sneaky or underhanded. Either case, it is a trait that will follow him, and his brain is great at compartmentalizing different aspects of himself. Lying could be a way of him dealing with who he is.

It is understandable that you would want to be with him still, you loved a part of him, or the him you use to know. You're finding out that what he represents is just a pretty image, hiding the person he is beneath.

Don't worry, the more you start associating this new him that you know as reality, the less and less you will be attach to him. Those negative feelings will become more associated with him, and your attachment to him will die or go extinct. This is a process and you do not need to beat yourself up for it, it is natural after all.

Perhaps, you should plan your next step of what you need to do to move on. Detaching emotionally is obviously important. Your attachment to him is allowing the pain to occur. If he were not someone you cared about, his betrayal would not matter so much.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Thank you Mr Fisty - you're right. It hurts because he's my husband and I love him and this wasn't how it was supposed to be. I got really upset tonight when I saw he was working on packing up more of his stuff while I was at work again today. I ended up sending him a screenshot the OW's husband sent me of them that she'd posted on instagram. His response "Ugh, I'm sorry ". I, in no way, think he's sorry for anything other than being caught in another lie. I know in my rational mind that he doesn't care about my feelings. I know he's still been trying to keep me as plan b, even while taking steps toward leaving me. 

I know the 180 and other people say that it's not over til it's over, but I'm having a really rough moment and I just don't see how we would move past this. I guess that's what he was trying to do. 

I'm so disgusted. And disappointed with myself that I want to tell my husband what her husband told me about her - because I still feel protective. But I know that they deserve each other. 

I can't believe I have to share my child with this person, and possibly with his tramp as well (wouldn't surprise me if these two idiots got married after we're divorced).


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

If someone hides his true self, how are we to know? Sure there are signs, but it's hard to reconcile them with the person he is presenting. You believed what he put forth for you to belief. It isn't your fault that you married someone like this.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

badaboom said:


> I don't know when to confront him about this. I just really want him to know that I know what he's doing. I'm so sick of being lied to.
> 
> And I hate that I still want my husband back, but I think he's gone for good.


He IS gone for good. ANY chance at a relationship with him again would have to come after a divorce, after he's given you half of everything (at least), and after he's been to a LOT of therapy and hit his rock bottom. If you are weak enough to take him back before that, you will just be here again in another year when he cheats on you again - because you'll have taught him that you want him so badly you'll take him in any form, and he'll have all the freedom in the world.

And how to confront him? That's the easy part. The next time you see him, you pull the divorce papers out of your purse and you place them in his hand. And when he asks why you're doing it, you just say "I don't share my husband" and walk away. 'nuf said.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

How are things going? Are you doing okay?


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

CynthiaDe said:


> How are things going? Are you doing okay?


I'm doing ok. I went to dinner with some friends on Sunday night - husband was upset he wasn't invited. The conversation then went into me telling him who all I've told about what he's doing. He got upset and accused me of telling "everyone so [he] won't have any friends anymore" and that "no one will want [him] around". Right, because that's my fault. I simply responded with "what did you expect would happen?" I know i shouldn't have, but I also said one line that I wanted to make crystal clear to him - "I loved you, and I love you, but I refuse to share my husband". And ended the conversation.
It actually really annoyed me that on Monday he was asking me if I told everyone at dinner the night before. I told him (truthfully) that we didn't even talk about him. So self-focused. 

Then Tuesday I get a message from him saying that he's sorry, he loves me, and he messed up. Nothing about stopping seeing her, nothing about wanting to come home. So I just said that I didn't know what sort of response he was expecting from me. I'm not in the mood for forgiving right now. So yeah, we're in flux and I'm just doing my thing and trying my best to ignore him for the most part, except when necessary to discuss the child.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Keep holding those boundaries. You are so worth it.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Because you've said that your heart wants him back, I just wanted to say the following:

People come here every day in pain and shock, willing to do almost anything to have their spouses come back to them, to have their spouses say they were wrong, they don't love someone else, they didn't mean any of it.

This would definitely help the heartbreak and soothe the ego. It also stops the destruction of the home and the damage to the children.

At least they think it will stop this destruction and damage.

After Dday, a BS can be almost in a fever of activity to fight the infidelity. This is time-consuming and emotionally draining.

If the WS does, in fact, see the light and come home, however, that fever subsides. And now the BS is faced with.......a lying, cheating spouse who broke vows, disrespected his/her family, gaslighted, blameshifted, broke hearts, and generally showed a truly unattractive side of him/herself.

This is the reality that the BS deals with when the WS decides to leave the AP and return to the marriage. From the cases I've seen here, it doesn't work. After a while, the BS decides the work of reconciliation isn't worth it with a person that simply can't be trusted.

And often the love is simply gone.

All this happens after the fever breaks, so please think about what you want for yourself. Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Thank you CynthiaDe.

AlteDame - I've been thinking about that a lot. I know that even if he did come back and said all that and I believed him and wanted to make it work, it's going to be a lot of work. The trust that was there is gone, maybe just for a long time, maybe forever. I know I can't live my life constantly checking my husband's phone behind his back because I don't believe him when he says he's being transparent. 

So basically... we'll see. Because I agree with you. I want my husband back, I don't want our family broken - but even if he asks comes back, I may just realize I can't do it. Or maybe it'll be before he asks to come back (if he were to do so). Sometimes it seems so clear - how can I want to stay married to someone who treated our marriage the way he did? The way he continues to do? If I were anyone else hearing what I was saying, I'd be wanting to slap the crap out of me and say get it together, he's a selfish ass and he deserves his tramp and all the misery he's got coming to him. And sometimes I do say that to myself, and then other times I just think I'm not ready to call it yet.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

badaboom said:


> I'm doing ok. I went to dinner with some friends on Sunday night - husband was upset he wasn't invited. The conversation then went into me telling him who all I've told about what he's doing. He got upset and accused me of telling "everyone so [he] won't have any friends anymore" and that "no one will want [him] around". Right, because that's my fault. *I simply responded with "what did you expect would happen?" I know i shouldn't have, but I also said one line that I wanted to make crystal clear to him - "I loved you, and I love you, but I refuse to share my husband".* And ended the conversation.
> It actually really annoyed me that on Monday he was asking me if I told everyone at dinner the night before. I told him (truthfully) that we didn't even talk about him. So self-focused.
> 
> Then Tuesday I get a message from him saying that he's sorry, he loves me, and he messed up. Nothing about stopping seeing her, nothing about wanting to come home. So I just said that I didn't know what sort of response he was expecting from me. I'm not in the mood for forgiving right now. So yeah, we're in flux and I'm just doing my thing and trying my best to ignore him for the most part, except when necessary to discuss the child.


I like this.

And all in less than 10 pages...

/salute


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Ok, so what's the 180 response to this? 

He came over this morning (scheduled, to take child to daycare) and was asking about this weekend. We are both invited to a friend's house for a bbq. He asked about riding over there together. I didn't respond. Then he asked about going to breakfast on Sunday. Again, didn't respond. 

The response I want to give is "you have and continue to spit on our wedding vows, dating another woman while we are still married. So no, at the moment I am not interested in spending time with you socially." 
I actually want to say a lot more of course, but I'm trying not to engage. This just really burned me up today. 

I thought about what someone posted on the thread about reconciling - about how the WS can't just go back to acting like they're married, that they have to do something extraordinary as the first step towards getting back to the regular married state. Because acting like they're married is how they should have been behaving the entire time. That's not a feat. It's just how it should have been. 

I have no idea if he's doing this because he wants to try to get back together, or because his girlfriend is out of town (yep, he doesn't know I know that). But we're past the point of trying to get together socially while he's doing this. Unbelievable.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

If you want to reconcile and he's committed to the marriage that's fine.

Commitment on his part means he writes a NO Contact letter to the OW, you get to read it and its sent. Then he actually stops seeing her. AFTER he is willing to do that, then he gets the benefit of a public appearance as a married couple. If he's unwilling, then no, you don't go with him, because you're not in a committed marital relationship.

And you are not the one making his life unpleasant. This is all on him. He has to deal with the fallout.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I'd respond to all his questions with, "have you dumped the OW yet?" 

If no, nothing more to say, walk away and have a super day!


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> If you want to reconcile and he's committed to the marriage that's fine.
> 
> Commitment on his part means he writes a NO Contact letter to the OW, you get to read it and its sent. Then he actually stops seeing her. AFTER he is willing to do that, then he gets the benefit of a public appearance as a married couple. If he's unwilling, then no, you don't go with him, because you're not in a committed marital relationship.
> 
> And you are not the one making his life unpleasant. This is all on him. He has to deal with the fallout.


Thank you, that's what I needed to hear.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

badaboom said:


> Ok, so what's the 180 response to this?
> 
> He came over this morning (scheduled, to take child to daycare) and was asking about this weekend. We are both invited to a friend's house for a bbq. He asked about riding over there together. I didn't respond. Then he asked about going to breakfast on Sunday. Again, didn't respond.
> 
> ...


"No, thank you."



badaboom said:


> I thought about what someone posted on the thread about reconciling - about how *the WS can't just go back to acting like they're married, that they have to do something extraordinary as the first step towards getting back to the regular married state. Because acting like they're married is how they should have been behaving the entire time. That's not a feat. It's just how it should have been.*
> 
> I have no idea if he's doing this because he wants to try to get back together, or because his girlfriend is out of town (yep, he doesn't know I know that). But we're past the point of trying to get together socially while he's doing this. Unbelievable.


Well said. And absolutely true! My only amendment to this would be to change "step" to "steps". Plural.



Pluto2 said:


> If you want to reconcile and he's committed to the marriage that's fine.
> 
> *Commitment on his part means he writes a NO Contact letter to the OW, you get to read it and its sent. Then he actually stops seeing her.* AFTER he is willing to do that, then he gets the benefit of a public appearance as a married couple. If he's unwilling, then no, you don't go with him, because you're not in a committed marital relationship.
> 
> And you are not the one making his life unpleasant. This is all on him. He has to deal with the fallout.


He'd also need to commit to 111.11% absolute, complete, and TOTAL transparency.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I would go with the 'OW is out of town' explanation & just say a simple 'no, thanks.'

In my opinion, the default position for you now should be to at least appear to be moving on. You can fake it until you make it; the 180 helps you do that. If he takes note and it pulls him back to you, then OK, you can respond to that as you want. In any case, working to detach will help you reclaim your own life, which is a wondrous thing when someone has devalued you so.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

alte Dame said:


> I would go with the 'OW is out of town' explanation & just say a simple 'no, thanks.'
> 
> In my opinion, the default position for you now should be to at least appear to be moving on. You can fake it until you make it; the 180 helps you do that. If he takes note and it pulls him back to you, then OK, you can respond to that as you want. In any case, working to detach will help you reclaim your own life, which is a wondrous thing when someone has devalued you so.


Well I told him no. Went to the bbq and he tried to act all normal. Which was annoying and weird. I stuck to talking to him only about the child (who was there with me). 

I got mad because I know he was with the OW last night, he didn't respond to a message I sent him about the child until 10 am this morning. So I asked and he is holding to the "we didn't have sex" as though somehow that makes it not as bad. I also might have flipped about how he hardly asks to see his child and of course he follows that with asking if he can come here to see her this evening (he was already going to ask, but just hadn't yet... right). I might have said some very 180-not-approved things about how he was choosing some **** over his child... Not my finest moment. I asked again about when is he getting an apartment and asked what the hold up is. Shockingly, I get the "I don't know". Oh he said he doesn't ask to see her because I look uncomfortable when he's around - uhh, you think? So there he goes, prioritizing his own feelings (being uncomfortable that I look uncomfortable) over spending time with his child. But obviously that's my fault. 

I've spent the weekend talking to my sister and thinking back about the past couple of years, and I'm almost there on realizing that he's never going to be the husband I need. I just really hope he'll be the father our daughter needs. I hate that i have to share her with him. That because he's such an *******, I have to not see my daughter 50% of the time.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

I know it's sooooooo hard not to say how you really feel about the OW. I had to listen to my STBXH tell me how "exhausted" he was when he called me, literally, on his way back to his place from dropping her off at the airport, after she came down here for a week only one week after he moved out. That I didn't absolutely go OFF, let alone say anything, is something I'm massively proud of.

Yours sounds a lot like my STBX. He wants to go with you to get-togethers with mutual friends because he wants to protect his image. Mine had the POS OW down here for a week for a Fvck-A-Thon and hid her in his house like a fugitive rather than risk running into anyone we know.

They are both still cake-eating. If they had to take their GFs out into public and be open about them, EVERYONE would be uncomfortable, because EVERYONE would know what they're doing is wrong. And they wouldn't get to be the hero they both still think they are anymore.

Can you tell I'm already there in realizing this one is never going to be the husband I want? (Be careful about using that word "need." We don't need our husbands. We don't need any husband, really. It's just a preference. That's all that it is. Tell yourself that regularly. It will sink in, I promise.)


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Nomorebeans said:


> I know it's sooooooo hard not to say how you really feel about the OW. I had to listen to my STBXH tell me how "exhausted" he was when he called me, literally, on his way back to his place from dropping her off at the airport, after she came down here for a week only one week after he moved out. That I didn't absolutely go OFF, let alone say anything, is something I'm massively proud of.
> 
> Yours sounds a lot like my STBX. He wants to go with you to get-togethers with mutual friends because he wants to protect his image. Mine had the POS OW down here for a week for a Fvck-A-Thon and hid her in his house like a fugitive rather than risk running into anyone we know.
> 
> ...


My husband has been out with her in the town where almost all of our friends live - I don't know if he cares or not about being spotted. BUT I agree that he wanted to protect his image by showing up at the party together. 

Our husbands do sound similar - what is in their heads that make them think that we want to know about anything going on with them, particularly anything that can be construed as related (or definitely correlates) to the OW? I hope you have told mutual friends what your husband is doing - we probably won't get back together, but I'm telling people because it's taking the fun out of their relationship. 

You're right - the husband I _want_. Or just a good husband in general....


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

badaboom said:


> I also might have flipped about how he hardly asks to see his child and of course he follows that with asking if he can come here to see her this evening (he was already going to ask, but just hadn't yet... right). I might have said some very 180-not-approved things about how he was choosing some **** over his child... Not my finest moment.


So you _might_ have gone off on him 

I know the 180 is hard, but it is for your benefit. You went off on him because you know he's not behaving the way your old husband used to behave. Well, that's because he's not your old husband anymore, and yelling at him won't help. He likely will never become the man you knew. He will make choices you don't agree with and there's nothing you are going to be able to do about those. The best you can do is take care of yourself and the kids.

And I wouldn't worry so much about not seeing your kids 50% of the time. I bet you will have them much more than you think.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> So you _might_ have gone off on him
> 
> I know the 180 is hard, but it is for your benefit. You went off on him because you know he's not behaving the way your old husband used to behave. Well, that's because he's not your old husband anymore, and yelling at him won't help. He likely will never become the man you knew. He will make choices you don't agree with and there's nothing you are going to be able to do about those. The best you can do is take care of yourself and the kids.
> 
> And I wouldn't worry so much about not seeing your kids 50% of the time. I bet you will have them much more than you think.


Yeah, I agree. I was thinking about the 180 being for my benefit - and like you said, yelling at him won't help, so it just makes me more mad when I do go off. I'm trying to find healthier ways to get out my anger, since yelling at him doesn't accomplish anything. That's the thing about the 180 - some of the bullets are about how it's good for me, but others it sounds like it's also for people trying to win back their WS. At this point, I'm not trying to "win" my husband back. He's being a bad husband, a bad friend, and not such a great person. I don't want that person. When he's been through more therapy and their relationship collapses, I imagine he might try to come back - who knows. Right now I'm just trying to deal with my anger. I spent an hour and a half pushing myself on the treadmill last night, and still cried after I went to bed.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

I hear what you're saying. IMO, the 180 is all for you. There are times when the separateness and unexpected independence will "wake up" a WS, and show them what they will be missing. They realize that they will lose the life they had and they stop all their nonsense and work on R. From what I've seen its not that often, but I am certainly no expert.

Go ahead and mourn the loss of the marriage. You've earned it. And an hour and a half on a treadmill is an extremely productive way to do that. Kuddos!


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

It's not a failure to cry and there is nothing wrong with it. You need to get out that pain and crying is one way to help accomplish that. Don't be so hard on yourself.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

A close friend of mine is going through this now. She has a copy of the 180 with her at all times to remind herself to always try hard to find the strength. She called me this weekend and sounded so much better that I couldn't believe it. She is starting to detach and is able to look at the practicalities of her new life in a much more positive way. It's just glimmers right now, but she is worlds better than she was just a few weeks ago.

My own mantra was 'forward focus,' which I repeated endlessly to myself as I devised mini-schedules for my day - 'In the next hour I will X; in the next 10 minutes, I will Y.' Focusing on the very present and keeping productive really helped me implement the 180.

I also agree that he won't be taking his child for 50% of the time. I wouldn't worry about that, if I were you.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

alte Dame said:


> A close friend of mine is going through this now. She has a copy of the 180 with her at all times to remind herself to always try hard to find the strength. She called me this weekend and sounded so much better that I couldn't believe it. She is starting to detach and is able to look at the practicalities of her new life in a much more positive way. It's just glimmers right now, but she is worlds better than she was just a few weeks ago.
> 
> My own mantra was 'forward focus,' which I repeated endlessly to myself as I devised mini-schedules for my day - 'In the next hour I will X; in the next 10 minutes, I will Y.' Focusing on the very present and keeping productive really helped me implement the 180.
> 
> I also agree that he won't be taking his child for 50% of the time. I wouldn't worry about that, if I were you.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Oh, my computer must have glitched, I had a whole response to alte Dame there.


Thank you for the suggestion on the mini-schedules, I'm going to have to try that. 

I know he probably won't get 50%, but right now, any percent in addition to what he's already getting is too much - I feel a sense of panic when I think about it. After I gave him a hard time about hardly asking to see her, suddenly he wants to take her overnight for the first time. I can't help but feel he's just doing that so he doesn't look like an a-hole. Or he's being selfish (maybe I am too). She's very fixed on her routine, and he wants to screw that up just for his own wants. I let him stay and put her to bed at least once a week (he doesn't ask for more than that). I'm agreeing to it, because i don't want to be the one blocking him from seeing her. Doesn't stop me from crying at my desk about it though 

I was reading about cake-eating last night and one of the things I read was that a sudden increased interest in the child can be an illustration of him still trying to do that. But how do I know?? I obviously can't trust what he tells me. I asked him if anyone else was going to be there and he said "heck no" as though that was a ridiculous question. I told him I can't trust anything he says because he's done nothing but lie to me for the last 8 months. He's just not giving me any time to deal with this. Just pushing, pushing me.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Wait, how is he pushing you?

I thought you said he was still non-committal about getting his own place, that he was dragging this process out. Could it be that you don't want to deal with the reality of a formal separation and divorce and that's why you feel pushed? Not that I really blame you, it is a huge change in everyone's life. But at times like this, it always seems best to try to sift through everything you are feeling and know where these feelings are really coming from. Is he pushing for a divorce? Are you afraid? Is your child under stress? The better these emotions and feelings can be identified, the better prepared you will be to deal with them.-Just a suggestion.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> Wait, how is he pushing you?
> 
> I thought you said he was still non-committal about getting his own place, that he was dragging this process out. Could it be that you don't want to deal with the reality of a formal separation and divorce and that's why you feel pushed? Not that I really blame you, it is a huge change in everyone's life. But at times like this, it always seems best to try to sift through everything you are feeling and know where these feelings are really coming from. Is he pushing for a divorce? Are you afraid? Is your child under stress? The better these emotions and feelings can be identified, the better prepared you will be to deal with them.-Just a suggestion.


Yes, you are probably right. I feel pushed because he's forcing changes I'm not ready for. He is being non-committal about getting his own place, hasn't done anything in terms of moving along our separation. I guess that's why I'm so upset. He won't do any of the things regarding our relationship, but he's pushing to take more and more time with her away from me. I don't like it. 

Yes, the child seems to be stressed. She's constantly asking for the other of us when one of us is with her. From what I gather, she's more often asking for me when he's with her. It's hard for me to tell how much is ordinary toddler clinginess and how much is due to this. She's having a hard time going to sleep - she won't go to sleep unless we stay with her by her crib until she falls asleep - and even then she won't go to sleep for a while. 
This is a change - when he first left and I was putting her to bed every night, I was able to put her in her crib awake and leave the room and she would go to sleep within a few minutes.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

So this is weird. Yesterday, Husband came to the house as usual at 6. He's sitting on the couch with the child when I come out to go to work. He tells me that something got into the trash outside (I had put a bag of trash outside but not in the can - I really don't recall if anything was in there that would be enticing to neighborhood animals). So I (I guess stupidly) assumed he had cleaned it up. So I get myself together, say bye to the child, and walk outside. Nope, trash everywhere and I need to leave. So I get in my car and leave for work, I'll clean it up when I get home. He texts me 5 minutes later "so you just left the trash there" then 10 minutes later "I can't believe you just left it. There is a trash can right there for Pete's sake". I responded with "Funny, I thought the same thing". And he responded with "I'm not the one that left it right next to the trashcan. You're ridiculous. It wouldn't have happened if you weren't so lazy not to open a lid and place the trash in there. How's that?" I just responded with "I think you should stop talking to me right now".
Yeah, I could have cleaned it up, and yeah, he doesn't want to live here, so maybe I shouldn't have expected him to. But if he doesn't want to live here, then it's not of his g.d. business what I do with my house. It was outsde, not like I left a pile of garbage for our child to dig around in. 

So I shared this exchange with a co-worker, who told me a little story about her aunt who was divorced but continued to let her husband speak abusively to her for years even after the divorce. And it was like a light went off in my head. All this thinking I've been doing for hte last couple of months and how I've been feeling for the last few years. He's verbally abusive. I've been walking on eggshells for years, fretting about telling him anything negative (like that he didn't buy what I asked him to from the store when he offered to go) because I'd worry he was going to fly off the handle. Picking fights with me and then getting mad when I'd walk away instead of engaging in a ridiculous argument. Acting like it was all my fault that he was mad. I can't even count the number of times I've said "do not talk to me like that". 

How did I not see this for what it was?? 

And what's so disturbing - he's totally following his father's pattern. His dad was the same way, and I thought he was better than this. And what really scares me is that his dad was abusive toward him. And once they were divorced, his mom wasn't there to protect him. And how he's doing the same damn thing. 

Am I awful for thinking, if he wants to abuse someone, he's got his OW that he can treat like crap now.??

Today I just texted him and said that he was never to speak that way to me again. That it is unacceptable and I should never have allowed him to speak to me with such abusive language, and it stops now". Maybe I shouldn't have used the word allowed, too late now though, it's out there.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Big step for you!

Setting boundaries!

All very positive.

And while he had no obligation to pick up your trash, his comments were way out of bounds.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Good job, as you detach emotionally, you will see your history different with him. The loss of the love goggles will alter your perception of the past. Not to mention you can view events more neutrally.

Unfortunately, abused victims will either be abusers themselves or find relationships where they become victims.

Cut communication to the bare minimal, and do not engage if he goes off on a rant, he needs a recipient around to dump his anger issues on.


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

Here's the thing, we "teach" others how to treat us. If you allow someone to treat you a certain way, even once and for long enough it can dictate the tone of your relationship.

Through time you've normalized his behaviour towards you and come to accept it. You haven't realized this before because of how you felt about him, but now that you are (_slowly_) moving on from him, you're able to reflect back with better clarity. I mean your last description of your history together is vastly different from the times when you were still hoping to stay together, and that is a good thing. Your feelings for him in the past have allowed him to say and behave as he pleased and as your feelings change, so does your perception and tolerence of his behaviour. 

You're worried that you shouldn't have used the word 'allow'?.. f*** that and f*** him. You deserve respect, you demand it and never *allow* someone to make you feel otherwise. You have nothing to fear from him. He, however has every reason to fear you. Selfish, self-involved and immature men fear a strong, confident and assured woman.

Limit your contact with him either to your daughter, finances or household matters, that's it. Do not respond to him for anything else and, more importantly, do not be afraid to *not* respond to him. You don't ask him or intitiate any converstations about his life, he'll likely lie to you anyways so why bother:scratchhead:.. why do that to yourself? You've given him too much power over you, don't indulge his whims or little tantrums.

You focus on taking care of yourself and your daughter, focus on your lives, needs and your happiness. Whatever obligations he has to fullfil are on him, you owe him no consideration, leniency or concern. However you owe it to yourself to be respected and treated well.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

I'm having a rough day today (and yesterday). I guess it's really realizing that this is actually happening and it's making me so angry. Last week I flipped my lid at him after he got on my case for taking money out of the joint accounts. Most of the savings was to buy stuff for our child, and I hadn't been touching it, but realized I needed to, since I buy almost everything for her. Then in the conversation it comes out that he's thinking about buying a house. So all I hear is that he's mad I took the money from the account for our daughter because he wanted it so he could buy another home. And in that conversation he's trying to get me to agree with him that "isn't it better to buy now than to pay rent on a place for a year and then buy?" Wonder who's in his ear about that one.... I refused to give an opinion, since he didn't consult me before looking to buy or even tell me that's what he was doing, he obviously wasn't actually interested in my opinion. I ended up telling him that I don't like him, that I think he and the OW are disgusting, awful people. That I don't want anything to do with him that doesn't pertain to our child. He really has it in his head that we can be buddies while he goes off and screws someone else. It feels to me like he's still in the throes of this mid-life crisis. Talking about buying a house when we haven't even filed legal separation paperwork? Seriously? He doesn't even know what his financial obligation to me will be, and he wants to buy a house? And I know I don't have to be on the mortgage or the deed, but I will be responsible for the debt if he defaults before we're divorced. (don't worry, I'm talking to lawyers about this.) I feel like he's just off in la-la land. Enjoying screwing his girlfriend, going out and partying when he feels like, and then being a part-time dad also only when he feels like. 

It's so clear he didn't and still isn't really thinking about the whole future. If he actually saw a future with the OW, he would have handled this so much better. I'm going to be in his life forever (particularly for the next 17 years) and you'd think he might have been thinking it would be good for me to have a good relationship with whomever he got involved with. But no, doesn't even occur to him. Just wants what he wants when he wants and to hell with everyone else. 

It hurts. I don't know why I've been so upset just yesterday and today - I keep crying. He's still not really thinking about the future. He's got it in his head that he'll be able to decide everything (and yet he calls me controlling). And then suggested we get a joint lawyer. I feel like I'm on the crazy train here.

Another example of the crazy train - we got into an argument Tuesday morning over custody (we don't have an agreement in place, and he keeps pushing for more and more time). I'm sick and feel like crap. So a lot of words were said, then Wednesday he comes, takes the child to daycare and I stayed home. Then he's texting and coming by to see how I'm doing or if I need anything. After he just went off on me about not doing me any "favors". So yeah, I'm going to ask him for anything?? Really?? I just told him I didn't need anything from him and he left. It's seriously crazy-making.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Most attorneys tell their clients to take one-half of the funds in the joint account and place it in a separate account, because you need cash and its yours. Attorneys can have one client at a time, and cannot ethically represent both sides of a divorce. So he might be mediation (which in a lot of jurisdictions is pretty worthless). He might be a collaborative divorce, but even then the attorneys (see the plural) only represent one side. Say no to a joint attorney, that is him wanting to save money (at your expense) for his new house.

Get a friggin' separation agreement signed. He does not have boundaries and you are not enforcing yours. (End of 2x4 time).

I honestly can understand your sorry. You were hoping he would someone come to his senses and end things with the OW and come back to you. Sweetie, that is not going to happen, or at least certainly not now. It's possible that things with the OW won't work out. Its also possible that they do and they stay together. You need to focus on you, and your strength building. If he gets angry that you withdraw money from a joint account, you need to learn to say "Too bad, its my money, too." Stand up for yourself. You can do it.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> Most attorneys tell their clients to take one-half of the funds in the joint account and place it in a separate account, because you need cash and its yours. Attorneys can have one client at a time, and cannot ethically represent both sides of a divorce. So he might be mediation (which in a lot of jurisdictions is pretty worthless). He might be a collaborative divorce, but even then the attorneys (see the plural) only represent one side. Say no to a joint attorney, that is him wanting to save money (at your expense) for his new house.
> 
> Get a friggin' separation agreement signed. He does not have boundaries and you are not enforcing yours. (End of 2x4 time).
> 
> I honestly can understand your sorry. You were hoping he would someone come to his senses and end things with the OW and come back to you. Sweetie, that is not going to happen, or at least certainly not now. It's possible that things with the OW won't work out. Its also possible that they do and they stay together. You need to focus on you, and your strength building. If he gets angry that you withdraw money from a joint account, you need to learn to say "Too bad, its my money, too." Stand up for yourself. You can do it.


I did say too bad about the money. He took the rest and closed down the accounts. 

What do you mean 2x4 time? I know, I know I need a separation agreement. I couldn't get an appointment with the lawyer my therapist strongly recommended until the 2nd, I had been hoping we could wait until then. If he pushes me more this week, I'm going to go to the other lawyer I already saw and get started (he doesn't take a retainer). 
But yeah, I shut down the same lawyer thing immediately. I don't feel comfortable doing it through mediation, since I've been hearing about how they're more out to just get the doc signed, not for my best interests and I don't want to get screwed on this. He's already pushing for more time with the child. But he sees her at least one day a weekend (except for last weekend, which was unusual), and mornings and evenings MWF. I think that's enough. And I'm getting really angry with him pushing for more. And trying to take her overnight. I told him he could take her for father's day and keep her overnight, but I'm nervious that now he's going to consider that the new normal. Which it isn't.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

From those who have been through this, maybe you can help me to understand this part. We've been separated for 3 months. He's been seeing the OW for at least 2 consistently now. Having a grand time together, in la la land. So what I'm trying to understand is his crazy push for the legal separation agreement. In our state, all it is is a separation of property, it doesn't actually mean anything. We're separated as of the date he left this house. Maybe he just doesn't understand that and wants to feel like he's not cheating on me because in his mind we'd be "legally" separated? It's just really annoying me that he's got all these ants in his pants. I know I shouldn't worry about what's he doing, but this affects me when he tries to make things official without going through official channels. He hasn't even talked to a lawyer yet, but is antsy to be divorced. Does this make any sense? 

Hmm, maybe it's because I told him that I still consider it cheating that he's seeing her right now. Even if we do the legal property settlement and custody agreement, I will still consider it cheating because we're still married. I know not everyone agrees with that sentiment, but that's how I feel. And if it makes him feel like ****, then he will just have to deal with that on his own. 

It really just helps me to get a handle on the situation for myself if I can understand (even if it's stupid) at least part of where he's coming from.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

I'm in Florida. I forget where you've said you are, Badaboom. Here, yes, it's still considered cheating if you're separated but not divorced in the legal sense that if my STBXH spends joint marital money on his POS GF, I can basically order through the court for him to pay it back to me. I know that my husband's lawyer told him he should NOT spend any money on the OW he's left me for until the divorce is final, but he has anyway, paying for dinners and stuff out of his own account and credit card. His attorney advised him to not even do that, because technically I'm still entitled to half the money he earns that goes into that account until everything is final.

It sounds like yes, your husband wants to feel less guilty about what he's continuing to do while avoiding getting the divorce because he needs to be able to grab his Plan B branch when the branch he's swinging on right now breaks.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Don't see what's so hard to understand. As long as he's married he doesn't have to split everything, you can't move on and thus remain plan B (because it's fairly clear that if skvnk doesn't work out you'll take him back) and he can screw said skvnk while not having to commit anything to her. 

And if he's legally separated he can feel better about it. So he keeps everything on his terms, and if he decides he can have a future with her he can file for divorce when he's ready. Pretty slick if he can get you to go along with it.


Why haven't you filed yet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Ah, well when his words and his actions are in conflict, look at his actions. He likes things just the way they are.

But if I had to guess, I'd say his lip talk about a legal separation is an empty commitment to the OW.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Nomorebeans - I'm in VA. The odds of being able to divorce him on the grounds of adultery are crazy small. We don't have joint accounts anymore - the first time I talked to the lawyer he told me to open all new ones just for me, so I've done that. I've cut him off of all the joint credit cards. He opened new ones himself anyway. Probably to spend money on her. 

Pluto - You're right, words and actions have been in conflict. It's exhausting. I told him to write up whatever he wanted and I'd take it into consideration. Haven't seen anything. I did get him to agree to giving me money finally. I think part of it is that he's just kind of dumb when it comes to grown up things. He's called me controlling frequently over the past few months. Pretty sure that's translated from, I've had to hold his hand through adult hood for the last 13 g.d. years. 

Lifeistooshort - I admit, I'd been trying to hold out, to wait out this nonsense (I know that's not a good route to take, but it's what I've been doing). I'm not doing that anymore. I will be starting the process in 2 weeks to get hte legal separation of finances agreement put together. Both of the lawyers I want are out of town. 

You're all right, I've been too lenient. I'm not doing it anymore. I'm not letting him complain to me about whatever's going on in his life, just so he can go and be happy and up with her. I talk to him about our daughter and nothing else. I'm just waiting now until I can see a lawyer. And in the meantime, I'm trying to get my emotions under control. My therapist started me on an anti-depressant, it's been a week so it's probably not fully working yet, but hopefully I'll start feeling better soon. I'm really trying to stand up for myself. I still feel myself not telling him what I think because he's still got me walking on eggshells, worried about his reaction. It tears me up that I stop myself until I blow up. Because I know that's not healthy.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

It never pays to be a doormat. You learned that a little late but that's better than never. Hopefully, your attorney can get things moving along.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

I need help, or something. I don't even know. I started on wellbutrin two weeks ago, and for the past week my crying has been out of control. I can't go to sleep, I have to watch tv til I pass out, because as soon as I close my eyes to try to sleep my mind starts racing and I get hysterical. I'm seeing my therapist tomorrow to talk about it. I just don't know how to get this under control. I feel so miserable and like a failure. I keep thinking about how, what if I'd just pushed harder months earlier to know what he was doing. I know I can't change the past, but it's driving me crazy. I just don't know how to cope with this. 

I'm trying so hard to give him the separation he wanted, by not talking or engaging with him except about the house or child. It's so hard because it feels wrong. It doesn't help when he accuses me of being rude because I won't talk to him about anything else. 

AND STILL every time I hear a car go by I look out and I feel that stupid hope that it's him coming here to ask to come home. It's ridiculous and I know rationally that's not going to happen. 

I don't know what I need or want, but I feel just so awful and can't stand it.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

I am so sorry to hear that you are in such a state. You cannot control your husband and it wasn't something you did or didn't do that led him to this place. It's all on him. He is behaving this way because something is wrong with him, not because something is wrong with you.
I wrote and article on taking thoughts captive and how to refocus your thinking. I hope this will be of help to you. I will pray for you.
How to Refocus Your Thoughts Using 3x5 Cards | The Feminine Review: Homemaking, Family and the World


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

CynthiaDe said:


> I am so sorry to hear that you are in such a state. You cannot control your husband and it wasn't something you did or didn't do that led him to this place. It's all on him. He is behaving this way because something is wrong with him, not because something is wrong with you.
> I wrote and article on taking thoughts captive and how to refocus your thinking. I hope this will be of help to you. I will pray for you.
> How to Refocus Your Thoughts Using 3x5 Cards | The Feminine Review: Homemaking, Family and the World


Excellent article and suggestion. I did this in a different way at the height of my anxiety one night a couple months after DDay. I was walking off my rage, and the Pink song "Fvcking Perfect" came on my iPod. The line "Change the voices in your head - make them like you, instead" became my affirmation. I thought, "What would a lifelong friend who loved me unconditionally say?" And that voice that had made me question and blame myself now was on my side.

Like Cynthia says, write that down if you have to. Or any other favorite quote that empowers you. Whatever it takes to really engrain it.

And it sounds like the Wellbutrin is not for you. Ask your doctor about it, of course. But if it's making your depression and anxiety worse after a solid week of taking it, that can't be right.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Two things. SOME people don't handle wellbutrin well. I did incredibly well on it, but for some, it triggers a reaction. Call your doctor immediately in the morning and talk to him about it. You may need a different med.

OTOH, it may be that you simply ARE NOT MOVING ON.

Not trying to bash you, just to point out that if you aren't PROACTIVELY changing you life to fill it up with stuff that is NOT about him, of course you're going to turn and hold your breath every time you hear a car drive by.

If you were so busy living a great life of YOUR invention, you'd soon lose interest in what this loser is doing.

So what ARE you doing to fill your life with stuff that's good for YOU?


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Turnera - You're right, I'm not finding enough to fill my time and I'm not moving on. But I do think it's also the drug, I mean, I'm at work, doing work and start crying. I'm running on the treadmill (which I enjoy) watching a tv show I enjoy, and I start crying. I'm trying to do things, but I don't know what to do. 2-4 times a week, I spend over an hour and a half running. Other days I'm doing quick runs and strength training. I was feeling better after running, which is what makes me think it's the medicine. 

CynthiaDe – Thank you, these are the words I need to put on my 3x5 card. I’ve not been much for scripture in the last few years, but I will look at the ones you suggest and explore some more on my own. 

Nomorebeans – I think I’m on your track, I try to stop myself, calm down and remind myself that this is not my fault. I do turn to my best friend who has been wonderful at being straight with me, while being sensitive to my emotions. 

I just feel so lost. I really don’t know what to do with myself. It’s not even so much that I’m wondering what he’s doing, I really don’t even think about whether he’s with her or whether he’s where he says he is anymore. It’s just the absence. And I start thinking about how I should have gotten us into therapy sooner, how I should have pushed harder when I knew something was up months before dday. And then I have his mom telling me that he loves me and will always love me, and she wishes “both” of us could have worked this out. And I’m just thinking, was I really so bad? I just always thought we would be together and would weather the problems together. But like you’re all saying, I can’t make him do or not do anything. He decided that forever=5 years. He decided that working on our marriage was too much work. He actually told me, when I asked him to give us a year to work on this, “I can’t wait that long”. I don’t know why I wasn’t hearing him then, I mean I do, but he told me. He was gone and didn’t care about his commitment to me at all. He tells me that he’s read about how the first year of having a baby is the hardest year on a marriage. Not even getting that that says so much more about him than it does about me. She was only 9 months old when he started talking to another woman. I know he’s pathetic and weak – it just hurts so much to know that my husband didn’t love me enough to stay with me through this. And now I have to start over, because he’s an *******. 

It drives me nuts knowing that this is a midlife crisis, he deliberately sought out a woman who was taken, who embodies a whole lot of things that he supposedly hates, because it's new and different and fun. And when that crashes and burns, because at some point, he won't like her boobs hanging out of her animal print tank tops, her ******* accent will annoy him, the fact that she's legit stupid will no longer be cute - I'll have moved on and finally realized how much better off I am without having a husband like him. And he'll know that he destroyed our marriage and ruined a good portion of the beginning of my child's life for me, all for nothing. 

I know it's ridiculous to say "life isn't fair" because it just isn't. The thing that actually tears me up the absolute most is that he can treat me horribly, destroy our marriage, leave our family, and yet he still gets to take my daughter from me. I know it's not good for her and I wouldn't actualy wish this, but sometimes I do wish he would have just left left. I don't agree with people that say that just because he's a bad husband doesn't make him a bad father. It doesn't necessarily mean he is a bad father either, but I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. The amount of time he gave and continues to give to this OW, he didn't only take from me. He took from our daughter too.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

badaboom said:


> Turnera - You're right, I'm not finding enough to fill my time and I'm not moving on.
> 
> I just feel so lost. I really don’t know what to do with myself.


Well, there you go.

Get off your butt and go DO some things. Volunteer. Go to church. Join a club for something you like to do. Take a class in something you wanted to learn. Call up old friends and meet up. Start taking day trips to replace old memories with NEW memories. The more new stuff you crowd into your head, the less time you'll spend on your old stuff.

btw, when I was depressed, I was on wellbutrin (for energy) but I was also on paxil for the crying and depression. You need to ask your doctor to reevaluate the meds.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

badaboom said:


> I know it's ridiculous to say "life isn't fair" because it just isn't. The thing that actually tears me up the absolute most is that he can treat me horribly, destroy our marriage, leave our family, and yet he still gets to take my daughter from me. I know it's not good for her and I wouldn't actualy wish this, but sometimes I do wish he would have just left left. I don't agree with people that say that just because he's a bad husband doesn't make him a bad father. It doesn't necessarily mean he is a bad father either, but I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. The amount of time he gave and continues to give to this OW, he didn't only take from me. He took from our daughter too.


I hear you completely on this. I'm sorry (no, I'm not, really), but cheaters who leave their spouses with young children for an Exit Affair and continue along those lines after leaving ARE bad parents. For exactly the reason you state - they aren't just giving the time they used to spend on their betrayed spouses to the OW or OM - they're taking that time away from their kids.

My son has spent a total of two nights with his father at his house since he moved out almost two months ago, and those were because I went out of town for a family event. She's not even here all the time yet, but when she was for about a week in May, he spent 2 hours a day with him in the afternoons after school, then ran back home to her. Thought he was doing us all a big ****ing favor. If/when she does move down here, my son won't want to spend time with them both over there, and I'm sure the time he spends with him away from his house will be less and less.

Yep. That's not a good father. It makes me furious that this is what he's turned out to be.

But you know, bdb, we can't dwell on this. (As if I don't, I know.) I'm trying not to. I'm not doing that as much as I used to. My son is getting used to the "new normal" and seems to be coping very well. He seems to have gotten past any anger and disappointment he felt at first pretty quickly. He's not moping around, he's not sullen or angry. He laughs with his friends, he enjoys his sports video games, shooting baskets, running, swimming. He's always doing something.

I've said this before here, but it bears repeating. I asked him a couple weeks after his Dad left if he was doing OK, wanted to talk about it, that kind of thing. He said, "Him leaving was all I thought about for about a week. But then I realized there was nothing I could do to change it. So I just had to let it go."

Out of the mouths of babes.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

In my opinion, a man who has an affair and leaves his wife and baby in the child's first year is both a terrible husband and a terrible father.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Thank you alteDame, I agree with you. Just seems like that's not the prevailing opinion everywhere. I think he's dispicable for what he did. It would have taken a lot for me to get past it - now I'm to the point where I don't know how that could even be possible.

Thank you all for your support in the last two days. I think Wednesday was a combo of being on the wellbutrin, and my emotions finally catching up with my brain that knows it's over. I was feeling better yesterday, even last night (which is the worst time for me), and feeling even better today. 

Also, I guess I wasn't clear about not knowing what to do with myself. I have things to do during the waking hours. It's in the hours between when my daughter goes to bed and when I'm finally tired enough to pass out that are hard. But seems better tonight.

From the mouths of babes indeed - it's a good way to think. I can't stop him from leaving, I can't stop him from seeing her. I have to take control of what I can, which is my own life. I'm working on it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

badaboom said:


> Thank you alteDame, I agree with you. Just seems like that's not the prevailing opinion everywhere.


So what? Who cares?

THEY don't have to live with him. And regardless, you still can make any decision you want to, in terms of your own life.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

turnera said:


> So what? Who cares?
> 
> THEY don't have to live with him. And regardless, you still can make any decision you want to, in terms of your own life.


Yep, you are right. But I do still have to deal with him and with him being my daughter's father. I'm really struggling with that. Knowing that he can be such an ahole and treat his family like this and still get to take my daughter EOW and on some holidays. I'm trying not to think about it because I can't get sole custody and it's going to happen. So I'm trying to stop borrowing worry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

You had your child in a marriage, which is an agreement to remain committed to each other. You thought your child was conceived in a safe relationship. That has now all been blow up, so your situation has completely changed. The way you wanted to raise your child has completely changed as well. This is a situation to grasp and to find a new normal.
However, your husband is a father and whether he is great guy or a jerk, he is going to have a relationship with your child. It is very rare where a child is better off without a relationship with their parent, so your best approach is to accept these new circumstances and work to make them as good as possible for your child, despite your ill feelings towards your ex. You will be able to do this, but it will be very hard at first. It is okay that it's hard. That is part of the process of working through it, but if you accept the truth of your situation and think of how to make it as healthy as possible for your child, you will work through it faster.
How are you feeling today? Have your feelings improved since the other day? Have you tried the 3x5 cards yet?


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

I know, I'm just dealing with the loss of time with my daughter that comes with all of this. Like you said, it's not how I planned to parent my child, and it's going to take some major adjustment. I'm still thinking about what I want and what I want for her. It's hard to separate the two, because they don't always align. 

I am feeling better today. I took my daughter out to see our town's parade, walked there and back, so we got a good amount of time outside. I haven't cried at all today. 

I haven't tried the 3x5 cards yet, but I will. 

On another note - I unloaded a bit on his mom. She sent me an email that made it pretty clear to me that he's spun her some bs (I know we're not surprised) about what's really happened. So I set her straight. I was polite, but made it clear I was hurt that she would say to me "I really hoped you both could have worked through this". I let her know that I was willing to work through anything, except him continuing to see the OW. That was my line, and he deliberately crossed it so that I would agree to the separation. I'd already told her that, but I don't think she really has any idea how full of **** he is. Talking about how he does and always will love me. Pfft. 
Anyway, it felt good to open up on some of that. I didn't tell her in the hopes that she'd talk to him, but I think the people closest to us should have the truth. I'd always felt that things in our marraige should stay in our marriage (because it can affect others' opinions of the other spouse, and because it's just plain private). But that was when I had it in my head that we'd work through anything and I wanted us both to have as good of a relationship with our in-laws as we could. But, like so many other things, he's blown that to hell. So he can deal with people knowing what I've really been dealing with. 
I'm not saying I'm perfect, and I've got some work to do on my end before I were to get into another serious relationship, but I've never been cruel to him. I've never intentionally belittled him. I'm sure it's happened occassionally, but not very often have I picked a fight with him. So I wanted her to understand that the strain she saw between us was because he was mean, a lot. And that didn't make me feel loving towards him when we were getting along better. Because he'd just be mean again. As usual, I'm babbling. I really appreciate all of you who are kind enough to read through all my blather and still help me.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

It's not babbling. You are working through this storm. It's good to write it out and get feed back.
I'm glad to hear you are doing better today. There will be ups and downs, but eventually you and your daughter are going to be okay.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

As they say, the good thing about telling the truth is you never have to worry about keeping your lies straight.

Of course you should tell the truth, don't ever give that a second thought. You weren't mean, you didn't share private intimate details-just the truth. Good for you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

meh, the very first thing a betrayed spouse should do is tell the truth to all of the cheater's important people. So they can knock some sense into him.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

turnera said:


> meh, the very first thing a betrayed spouse should do is tell the truth to all of the cheater's important people. So they can knock some sense into him.


No sense being knocked into my husband. I don't know that anyone has even actually said anything to him. Seems like his friends are just avoiding him. Or maybe he's just not told me. Given the state of things, that's actually a good possibility.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

badaboom said:


> No sense being knocked into my husband. I don't know that anyone has even actually said anything to him. Seems like his friends are just avoiding him. Or maybe he's just not told me. Given the state of things, that's actually a good possibility.


Oh, they've probably said something to him.

My STBXH doesn't tell me when others do that, either - but eventually they do. His sister told me she "let him have it" after she found out that A.) He had lied to her about why we were separating (he told her I initiated it, I was probably already seeing someone else, etc., etc. - the same BS he told longtime friends of ours who met the OW when he went up to their hometown to see her last year), and B.) He was being a complete idiot about everything in relation to the whole thing. He's never said a word to me about anything she said. She told me she told him "Don't ever introduce me to that b!tch. I want nothing to do with her or your relationship with her. The two of you will be on your own as far as I'm concerned."

She told me his brother read him the riot act about it all, as well, and is really appalled and disgusted with him. Again, not a word from him about his brother saying anything to him.

I think it's quite possible his aforementioned longtime friends have said something to him by now, too, because they were pretty pissed a couple months ago to find out he'd lied to them and put them in the awkward position he had, and that I had been very hurt about that for a long time until I finally talked with them about it and we all found out the truth.

If he isn't going to mention his sister and brother being pissed at him, he certainly isn't going to mention any of our friends who might have said something.

And really, they notice when mutual friends are avoiding them, too. STBX didn't get invited to any of our neighbors' 4th of July parties. Why would he be? But he seems to think he should have been, even though he left his wife and child and moved out of the neighborhood two months ago. Even if some of them don't know why, why would they invite him back now? He really thought there would be no consequences to his actions, that "nothing will really change" (his words).

Such idiots.


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## BryanB (Jul 5, 2015)

badaboom said:


> The title may be a little extreme - he seems to know why, but not really.
> 
> The story: My husband and I have been together for many years, and have 1 toddler. Since before the baby, we've had our share of problems, and they've just grown. Prior to getting pregnant, he had a slightly inappropriate relationship with a co-worker. Mostly just too friendly. His manager had a problem with it and embarrased them about it and I realized how bad it must be if they were behaving that way while at work. I didn't shut it down as strongly as I should have, and I've been holding on to the anger about it ever since. He actually invited her to our house (I did agree to it) and actually flirted with her in front of me. And really did not get that he did anything wrong.
> 
> ...


At least he is listening to you and doing blocking those other women (hopefully he did), that’s a good sign. There is still hope that he can come around if you stand your ground that you are not going to take any cheating from him. 
Counselling is a good but I think this issue hasn’t gone beyond what you to can deal with on your own. I mean you two still manage to have time to go out together and that is a good sign. You can simply set time aside and really have sit down together and have a deep heart to heart talk. 

You might need to take the initiative here. Sit him down and try to understand what the problem is and why he is cheating. Just telling him stop might work or it might not but I think trying to understand the under lying issue is key to solving the problem. Get him to open up, allow him to speak freely with judgment at least till he is done. Then ask him to talk about you, is there anything that he feels that you are doing wrong that he doesn’t like. This perceived problem which might be real or not could be the cause of his cheating.

Actually it could be anything but if both of you can see the problem then you two can start crafting ways to solve the problem. I understand that getting to this point might take a while. It won’t happen the 1st you do this but if you keep at it, eventually you two will get there and start the healing process. 

Your first task is to get him to actually listen to you and agree to a heat to heart talk where you both bear it all. It’s not easy but it’s possible. Good luck


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## OlderAndWiser (Apr 17, 2013)

BryanB said:


> At least he is listening to you and doing blocking those other women (hopefully he did), that’s a good sign. There is still hope that he can come around if you stand your ground that you are not going to take any cheating from him.
> Counselling is a good but I think this issue hasn’t gone beyond what you to can deal with on your own. I mean you two still manage to have time to go out together and that is a good sign. You can simply set time aside and really have sit down together and have a deep heart to heart talk.
> 
> You might need to take the initiative here. Sit him down and try to understand what the problem is and why he is cheating. Just telling him stop might work or it might not but I think trying to understand the under lying issue is key to solving the problem. Get him to open up, allow him to speak freely with judgment at least till he is done. Then ask him to talk about you, is there anything that he feels that you are doing wrong that he doesn’t like. This perceived problem which might be real or not could be the cause of his cheating.
> ...


You've got to be kidding right?

Worst advice I ever heard.

:surprise:


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

BryanB said:


> At least he is listening to you and doing blocking those other women (hopefully he did), that’s a good sign. There is still hope that he can come around if you stand your ground that you are not going to take any cheating from him.
> Counselling is a good but I think this issue hasn’t gone beyond what you to can deal with on your own. I mean you two still manage to have time to go out together and that is a good sign. You can simply set time aside and really have sit down together and have a deep heart to heart talk.
> 
> You might need to take the initiative here. Sit him down and try to understand what the problem is and why he is cheating. Just telling him stop might work or it might not but I think trying to understand the under lying issue is key to solving the problem. Get him to open up, allow him to speak freely with judgment at least till he is done. Then ask him to talk about you, is there anything that he feels that you are doing wrong that he doesn’t like. This perceived problem which might be real or not could be the cause of his cheating.
> ...


I think you have missed out the posts on what he has been up to since, whoring around town with his new OW!:frown2:


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Nomorebeans said:


> Oh, they've probably said something to him.
> 
> My STBXH doesn't tell me when others do that, either - but eventually they do. His sister told me she "let him have it" after she found out that A.) He had lied to her about why we were separating (he told her I initiated it, I was probably already seeing someone else, etc., etc. - the same BS he told longtime friends of ours who met the OW when he went up to their hometown to see her last year), and B.) He was being a complete idiot about everything in relation to the whole thing. He's never said a word to me about anything she said. She told me she told him "Don't ever introduce me to that b!tch. I want nothing to do with her or your relationship with her. The two of you will be on your own as far as I'm concerned."
> 
> ...


I know the guy he's staying with hasn't said anything to him. I'm not really surprised, that guy is very non-confrontational, and feels awkward enough but doesn't want to kick him out. I know his mom has, but I'm sure it's not the kick in the pants he needs. Which is why I was much more open with her on Friday about it, because she has only heard his side of bs about the whole situation.

You're right, he definitely has noticed the friends avoiding him, he's upset about it. And I get the whiny comments about it. Which I ignore. He's probably just decided he's better off being friends with her friends. Though I would suspect they aren't nuts about him either.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I wouldn't ignore the whiny comments. Respond with 'what did you expect?' and 'when you act like you have no morals, people treat you that way.' Some people need it to be verbalized, that VO smack in the forehead.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

turnera said:


> I wouldn't ignore the whiny comments. Respond with 'what did you expect?' and 'when you act like you have no morals, people treat you that way.' Some people need it to be verbalized, that VO smack in the forehead.


That's what I was saying. And the response would be "I know, I know". And I'd just get more annoyed. I'm just trying to emotionally disconnect, and saying something like "what did you expect?" and getting a response that pisses me off just keeps me engaging with his childish behavior. 

I'm really trying to do the 180 right this time.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

They do not want to be associated with him. People are judged by the people around them, and to some extent, it is true. The people around us influence us to varying degrees, and knowing more about the person he is, it is better to keep him at an arm's length.

He represents an element of instability, and since some of us have the awareness to enjoy stability, we protect that by removing that which threatens.

There is also an element of betrayal on discovering the true extent of your ex. His friends had a certain image of the person he is, and well he went against what he projected himself to be. It is likely that the people around him feel duped, and if he is capable of this, what else is he hiding. There is a level of mistrust now. You are not the only one who feels betrayed.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

I know what you mean, bdb. I avoid calling my STBX on his whiny comments, because he just bows his head and says, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry," and that just annoys me because I don't believe he truly is. But turnera makes a good point - they're still in The Fog and so are utterly baffled that people think they're doing a terrible thing - it all feels perfectly right and normal to them.

Maybe there's a happy medium where we can toss it off nonchalantly like the stupid stuff they say to us. Something like, "It turns out most people don't like cheaters. Go figure."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Exactly. My go-to in bad situations is to throw back humor. Like 'what did you expect?' kind of stuff. Duh!


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

badaboom said:


> That's what I was saying. And the response would be "I know, I know". And I'd just get more annoyed. I'm just trying to emotionally disconnect, and saying something like "what did you expect?" and getting a response that pisses me off just keeps me engaging with his childish behavior.
> 
> I'm really trying to do the 180 right this time.



It gets easier as you learn to accept him as he is. You are going against years of what you know, your biological attachment to him, and you will slip a lot.

Just remember, it is okay and it is process, not instantaneous.

The less you associate with him, and the more negative actions he commits, the easier it becomes to get free.

You will also learn new tools and new ways of handling emotions. Simple exercise such as diaphragm breathing slows down blood pressure, heart rate, and calms down the brain as well as the body.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

So, I continued with the well butrin, It was interesting - my prescribing doctor said that she commonly sees people have a shift right at 2 weeks where it seems to regulate, and that seems to be the case here. I have not had my mind going nuts at night since that bad night on Wednesday. I'm feeling calmer about him in general. Just not worrying so much about what he's doing. I think it also helped that I got out of the house with my daughter all weekend. We were out doing stuff a lot. I only got upset really one time, and that was being at the 4th of July parade and seeing all these families together and thinking, that should have been us. But I just let that thought roll through and away and let it go. 

It is amazing how they can say they know and they're sorry and just plain not mean it. It's like the lies just flow so easily. Mr Fisty, I'm with you. I'm accepting that I can't trust 95% of what he says to me, and I'm really sad that that's my reality, but it is. He's proven himself wildly untrustworthy. Can't change it, so I'm just accepting it and going about my day. Feels weird, but almost liberating.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

badaboom said:


> It is amazing how they can say they know and they're sorry and just plain not mean it. It's like the lies just flow so easily. Mr Fisty, I'm with you. I'm accepting that I can't trust 95% of what he says to me, and I'm really sad that that's my reality, but it is. He's proven himself wildly untrustworthy. Can't change it, so I'm just accepting it and going about my day. Feels weird, but almost liberating.


It's not weird. You are walking in truth. The truth will make you free.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

How is it that he knows when I'm feeling good, and just has to get in there and bring me down? It's just exhausting. 

Anyway - something that he actually brought up a few months ago, was the suggestion that he might have borderline personality disorder. He shared the signs with me and I agreed with him. Apparently he never broached that with either therapist he saw - I know his current therapist is treating him with kid gloves, probably so he doesn't stop going. But what I found interesting is that my therapist suggested to me that he could have this, purely based on my talks with her about our relationship (she's never met him). So... there's that. Nothing I can do about it, obviously, but I like explanations. They make it easier for me to process.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Whether he has borderline or not, the very fact that he exhibits so many symptoms means that you are much, much better off without him. He was destined to make your life a living hell. He has already done enough to shock the sensibilities by leaving you when his child is barely out of the womb.

Just imagine what he is capable of dishing out were he to stay?


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

alte Dame said:


> Whether he has borderline or not, the very fact that he exhibits so many symptoms means that you are much, much better off without him. He was destined to make your life a living hell. He has already done enough to shock the sensibilities by leaving you when his child is barely out of the womb.
> 
> Just imagine what he is capable of dishing out were he to stay?


My therapist said something very similar. It makes me feel very sad for him. Whether or not he has the disorder, he still made his own choices. One day, I hope he will be able to own those choices, work through his problems, and actually be a good father. He still can't even acknowledge that he didn't just leave me when he left. I know he loves our daughter, but just like he is with me, it's on his terms.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

badaboom said:


> Something that he actually brought up a few months ago, was the suggestion that he might have borderline personality disorder. He shared the signs with me and I agreed with him. Apparently he never broached that with either therapist he saw - I know his current therapist is treating him with kid gloves, probably so he doesn't stop going.


Bada, therapists generally are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of his disorder. One reason, as you correctly surmised, is that therapists know a BPDer almost certainly will terminate therapy on hearing the name of such a disorder. There also are other reasons, e.g., the loss of insurance coverage, which I discuss at Loath to Diagnose.



> But what I found interesting is that my therapist suggested to me that he could have this, purely based on my talks with her about our relationship (she's never met him).


Ironically, because a therapist treating the BPDer usually will not disclose the disorder name, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion on the matter is to see a therapist -- as you did -- who has never seen or treated him. The reason for this is that YOUR OWN therapist is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not those of your partner.

Yet, for the purposes of deciding to remain in a relationship, it really does not matter whether he satisfies 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD (thus "having BPD") or only satisfies 90% of those criteria (thus "not having BPD"). A man meeting 80% or 90% of the criteria can be nearly as impossible to live with as one meeting 100%. 

If you're interested in reading more about BPD red flags, you may want to take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most of them sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. 

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your partner's issues. Only a professional can do that. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a painful experience -- i.e., avoid taking him back and avoid running into the arms of another man just like the one you left (if he has strong BPD traits). Take care, Bada.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Uptown said:


> Bada, therapists generally are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of his disorder. One reason, as you correctly surmised, is that therapists know a BPDer almost certainly will terminate therapy on hearing the name of such a disorder. There also are other reasons, e.g., the loss of insurance coverage, which I discuss at Loath to Diagnose.
> 
> Ironically, because a therapist treating the BPDer usually will not disclose the disorder name, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion on the matter is to see a therapist -- as you did -- who has never seen or treated him. The reason for this is that YOUR OWN therapist is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not those of your partner.
> 
> ...


Thank you for all of this information. For the 18 warning signs, I could easily say at least 15 of them match my husband. I guess I just don't understand how we went a full 13 years before this could come to a head. How do BPDers even get help for this? This breaks my heart that I feel like I missed something and could at least tried to get him real help much earlier.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Oh and in case anyone is following - I'm switching to zoloft. I talked with my doctor some more and she described feelings of anxiety, didn't really realize that's what I was feeling. So we'll see if this is a better fit.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

badaboom said:


> I just don't understand how we went a full 13 years before this could come to a head.


Bada, BPD is not something a person "has" or "doesn't have." Rather, it is a spectrum disorder, which means it is a set of basic human behavioral traits we all have to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether he "has BPD traits." Of course he does. We all do.

Instead, at issue is whether his BPD traits are strong and whether they've been persistent over the past 13 years. This is an important issue because all of us can occasionally and temporarily -- even for a year or two -- find ourselves on the high end of the BPD spectrum. This can occur following a head injury -- or during periods of drug abuse or during a pronounced hormone change, which is why you'll see so many teenagers behaving like BPDers. 

I mention this because, if your H's BPD traits are temporary, the necessary treatment (addressing the drug problem or hormone change) would be very different from the treatment required to address a persistent long-term problem with strong BPD traits. In the latter case, the damage likely would have occurred before age five and the symptoms (i.e., strong BPD traits) likely would have started appearing in the early teens. 

Moreover, with a persistent problem like this, it is extremely unlikely that the strong traits would disappear for a year or two, much less for 13 years. Hence, if you did not see strong occurrences of BPD traits every few months (if not more frequently) throughout your 13 years of marriage, it is extremely unlikely your H has a persistent BPD problem. 

Indeed, I've met a lot of BPDers but have never met one whose traits disappeared for more than a few months during adulthood. I therefore am interested in knowing whether the 15 BPD warning signs started appearing early in that 13 year period? 



> How do BPDers even get help for this?


In most major cities of the USA and Europe, there are excellent treatment programs (e.g., DBT and CBT) that teach BPDers the emotional regulation skills they had no opportunity to learn in early childhood. Sadly, it is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength needed to stay in such a therapy program long enough (several years at least) to make a real difference.



> This breaks my heart that I feel like I missed something and could at least tried to get him real help much earlier.


If your H really does have a persistent problem with strong BPD traits, it is very unlikely that your trying "to get him real help" would have made any difference. BPD is a pernicious thought disorder in that, because it almost always is invisible to the person having it, and because it is characterized by an inability to trust others, it is very unlikely therapy will be successful unless the BPDer really wants to do it badly. This means the BPDer must be one of those rare BPDers who is highly self aware and has sufficient ego strength to tolerate therapy. On top of all that, the BPDer must be willing to fight his natural inclination to not trust the therapist.



> For the 18 warning signs, I could easily say at least 15 of them match my husband.


Please tell us the 3 warning signs that do NOT apply to your H. I ask because some of those signs are more important than others.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Also a therapist might not feel qualified to make a diagnosis of a mental illness, considering that to be for a Psychiatrist, not a therapist, who might not even be a fully qualified psychologist, either.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

badaboom said:


> Thank you for all of this information. For the 18 warning signs, I could easily say at least 15 of them match my husband. I guess I just don't understand how we went a full 13 years before this could come to a head. How do BPDers even get help for this? This breaks my heart that I feel like I missed something and could at least tried to get him real help much earlier.


You're such a kind-hearted person, bdb. Here he is completely throwing you under the bus, and you feel bad that you couldn't help him somehow. Don't beat yourself up for not catching it sooner. Hey - I missed that my STBX is a pathological liar and sociopath for 27 years. What kind of fool am I?

As to the Zoloft, I had some success with it for PPD 13 years ago. I had started with Sarafem (Prozac), but it made me anxious. The Zoloft helped with the depression and took the anxiety away. I hope it works out for you!


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## BryanB (Jul 5, 2015)

aine said:


> I think you have missed out the posts on what he has been up to since, whoring around town with his new OW!:frown2:


You are right I missed those. But I still believe in 2nd chance. Am yet to see any relationship problem that got solved without dialogue. That I think should be the 1st thing anyone should think of before considering a separation.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

BryanB said:


> You are right I missed those. But I still believe in 2nd chance. Am yet to see any relationship problem that got solved without dialogue. That I think should be the 1st thing anyone should think of before considering a separation.


Er..... well, have you tried to have a meaningful, honest conversation with a cheating liar. A dialogue is only worth the effort on both parties when both are willing to honestly discuss their problems. This guy hasn't been honest with his partner for a long, long, time, and after being given multiple chances by the OP.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> Er..... well, have you tried to have a meaningful, honest conversation with a cheating liar. A dialogue is only worth the effort on both parties when both are willing to honestly discuss their problems. This guy hasn't been honest with his partner for a long, long, time, and after being given multiple chances by the OP.


Thanks Pluto. 

Bryan, this has been the crux of the problem since even before I found out about the A. Trickle truths and straight up lies. He still lies to me, to this day. he's out of the house, dating another woman, and continues to lie to me. Why? Well, I can sure as **** tell you it's not to protect my feelings (even though I imagine that's what he's telling himself). 

He never stopped talking to her, he told me he did, and he didn't. He went to marriage counseling, but with no intention of actually trying to fix the problems in our marriage. There's no more conversation to be had. I really wish there were, but I refuse to put myself out there anymore. He's made his choice, it's very evidently not me, and that's that.

ETA: Also, we're not considering separation. We've been separated since February. And in April is when he told me he was never coming back. So... there's nothing more to consider.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Uptown said:


> Bada, BPD is not something a person "has" or "doesn't have." Rather, it is a spectrum disorder, which means it is a set of basic human behavioral traits we all have to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether he "has BPD traits." Of course he does. We all do.


Thank you for the explanation. I actually thought about that last night, thinking, well, I've felt like that or that before. 



Uptown said:


> Instead, at issue is whether his BPD traits are strong and whether they've been persistent over the past 13 years. This is an important issue because all of us can occasionally and temporarily -- even for a year or two -- find ourselves on the high end of the BPD spectrum. This can occur following a head injury -- or during periods of drug abuse or during a pronounced hormone change, which is why you'll see so many teenagers behaving like BPDers.
> 
> I mention this because, if your H's BPD traits are temporary, the necessary treatment (addressing the drug problem or hormone change) would be very different from the treatment required to address a persistent long-term problem with strong BPD traits. In the latter case, the damage likely would have occurred before age five and the symptoms (i.e., strong BPD traits) likely would have started appearing in the early teens.
> 
> ...


Hmm, I'm still trying to think this one through. Yes, he's displayed these traits to some degree throughout our relationship, but they definitely have gradually gotten worse (more intense?) later on. If it helps, he's 36. The ones I can think of that would be from even the beginning would be 1 Black-white thinking, 2 all-or-nothing expressions, 4 strong sense of entitlement (always), 5 flipping on a dime, 8 easily triggered anger, 10 being the victim (things always happen *to* him, never because of him).



Uptown said:


> In most major cities of the USA and Europe, there are excellent treatment programs (e.g., DBT and CBT) that teach BPDers the emotional regulation skills they had no opportunity to learn in early childhood. Sadly, it is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength needed to stay in such a therapy program long enough (several years at least) to make a real difference.
> 
> If your H really does have a persistent problem with strong BPD traits, it is very unlikely that your trying "to get him real help" would have made any difference. BPD is a pernicious thought disorder in that, because it almost always is invisible to the person having it, and because it is characterized by an inability to trust others, it is very unlikely therapy will be successful unless the BPDer really wants to do it badly. This means the BPDer must be one of those rare BPDers who is highly self aware and has sufficient ego strength to tolerate therapy. On top of all that, the BPDer must be willing to fight his natural inclination to not trust the therapist.


At least he is still in therapy. I asked him how it was going the other day and he said "great". She was actually our MC, but I could tell she was able to handle him, so I suggested he stay with her for IC. Glad I did. 



Uptown said:


> Please tell us the 3 warning signs that do NOT apply to your H. I ask because some of those signs are more important than others.


12 complaining about past relationships, 13 mirroring personality/preferences, 16 having casual but not close long-term friends (he's sitll friends with the same guys he was friends with before I even met him). Actually not really 17 taking on the personality of others when talking to them either.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

Nomorebeans said:


> You're such a kind-hearted person, bdb. Here he is completely throwing you under the bus, and you feel bad that you couldn't help him somehow. Don't beat yourself up for not catching it sooner. Hey - I missed that my STBX is a pathological liar and sociopath for 27 years. What kind of fool am I?
> 
> As to the Zoloft, I had some success with it for PPD 13 years ago. I had started with Sarafem (Prozac), but it made me anxious. The Zoloft helped with the depression and took the anxiety away. I hope it works out for you!


I know. Sometimes the thoughts go through my head and I'm thinking, seriously? He doesn't care about you, why should you care so much about him? 

It's like when we first went into therapy, all three of us were so focused on his severe depression and him cheating, that no one (including myself) paid attention to the fact that I also was depressed. Took the new third therapist to actually even give me a screen.

Thanks for the note on the zoloft - I hope this one takes a little better.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

I'm so much like you and your STBX so much like mine, Bada, that it's almost frightening. I also felt bad about not trying harder to get mine into counseling and get him some help in the early days after DDay. February was just a banner month for both of us, wasn't it?

I struggle lately with wanting to lash out at him - really let him have it - for all the sh!tty things he's done in the last several months. I want to know exactly what he told the OW that made her feel OK about helping to destroy a 25 year marriage with a child involved. But I know if I ask him, he will throw her under the bus in order to protect himself. He won't admit he told her the same lies he told their mutual friends that made it OK for them to have dinner with the two of them before I even knew about her - he'd rather I hate her all the more than admit he lied.

I met a woman friend of another woman friend last night. Turns out she was married to an airline pilot for many years, too, and came to find out he'd been cheating for years with random women in other states when one of them called her house one night demanding to know where he was. When she exposed it to all their pilot friends, they all admitted they'd known about him for years - that was the reason they stopped socializing with them. It all made sense. I look at my STBX's pilot friends. They've all fallen off the radar. STBX has had an excuse for all of them - this one moved, that one has issues, blah, blah, blah. See where I'm going, here?

Bryan, we're dealing with pathological liars who, in my case, vehemently refuse counseling of any kind. They don't want a professional to reveal what they really are. I've kept a journal of the lies I've caught my STBX in over the last six months. There have been more than 20. If the man's mouth is open and food isn't going into it, he's lying. Meaningful dialogue? I'd get more of that out of my dining room table.


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