# The Straw that Broke the Camel's Back



## Vincent_68 (Mar 8, 2014)

Firstly let me give a heartfelt THANKS to @Uptown. It was by chance that my google search led me to his description difference of a BiPolar and BPD individual that helped me make sense of my 21yr ordeal.
Obviously, there is a lot to this story although I am going to try to keep it short and focus on the most recent events.
***
I have been married for 21yrs. H is 41 and I am 45. We have 3 boys. T (21), Amb (18) and A (9).
We were married in France and I brought my W to Australia in 1993. All of her family live in France.
Reflecting back over the 21 yrs I now accept that what I have been living with WAS NOT and IS NOT _normal_.
The 'splits' began early on and I always put it down to being separated from family and country. Not having that family support when you need it most can be emotionally a turmoil. I accept this.
Over the years I would be chastised for paying too much attention to our sons. It made me feel like I was not giving my W the 100% that she required. As a result I turned into her 'black' when it came to raising our boys.
Fast forward to 2012 and my W had to rush back to France as her grandmother was very ill. She had to return to her birthtown. She stayed 2 weeks.
For those 2 weeks our homelife was 'normal'. No tension. No arguments. Everyone just 'get's along'. (as we do whenever she is away)
When she returned she looked and sounded rejuvenated. She had regained memories of her childhood. Revisited sites and venues that she had memories of when she was younger.
Fast forward to 2013. H and I planned to go on a 1week holiday with our youngest son. We planned months ahead. I could also sense that there was a need for her to 're-connect' with her family (parents, 2 sisters, uncle, cousins etc) that she hadn't seen since 2008. I talked her into travelling on her own and she agreed as long as I went with Mr 9 on a holiday. Her stay in France was 3weeks.
She returned at the end of Sept 2013. Her sister had cut her hair and when I saw my W I was shocked, she was donning the same hairstyle she had when I met her 21 yrs earlier. Over the course of the next few days I quickly got the impression that she was also treated like the 'little' girl of the family again.
In the dying days of Sept 2013 she sat with me one afternoon and said, "I don't want this. I'm not happy with this life. 'm not happy with you. I hate this house."
My response was calm. 'Ok, what is it that you do want?' To which she replied, 'I don't know but it isn't this.'
Strangely, the month of October was a great month. Smiles. Happiness. Intimacy.
Then in Nov 2013 just after our 21st anniversary everything started to crumble at an alarming rate.
Looking back now I can appreciate the intense emotions of 2013 on my W. She had a double mastectomy, our Amb was admitted to Rehab twice, she smashed her car into mine in our front driveway, I had been promoted and was spending less time at home.
Emotionally I wasn't there for her. So she filled the void with someone at work which evolved from an EA into a PA within the course of 4weeks. His first approach came just after our 21st Anniversary. Her recollection of the 4 weeks is pretty shattered even to this day. She can't recall many details and the details she can recall were quite explicit. I often look back at it and see her as having an 'out-of-body' experience, as if something took her over?
Anyway, on Dec7 2013 I found her drinking alcohol in the backyard. She asked to speak with me and told me about the PA. As I had been prepped back in Sept I did not react in horror or anger. I just looked at her and said, 'Well, you are 40. You are an adult and capable of making decisions on your own. What would you like to do now?' 
This caught her off-guard as it wasn't the response she was anticipating. I asked if she had, at any point, considered the consequences to her family and the other man's family? She looked at me and said, 'that never occurred to me'.
This led me to a lot of reading and research and I assumed what she was going through was a 'Mid-Life Marriage Crisis'. To which I responded by keeping myself centred and rekindling an interest in myself.
I started playing guitar again, after 18yrs. I started taking dancing lessons, Salsa. I got back into photography and post to Flickr and receive fabulous feedback.
All the while her splits still kept occurring. And when she was 'white' she was very very 'white'. And when she goes black- well you know what that's like.
So, since December's bombshell I started keeping a diary. The great things that were happening. The horrible things etc etc
Then, just last week, 5 March after a great couple of days there was another split. And it poured down hard. How I keep bringing her down and belittle her and how I say I have changed (I've actually never said 'I have changed') but I'm still the same and intent on making her feel like shiite.
That cut deep. Emotionally it sapped the last drop out of me.
Thurs 6 March I was sitting at my desk at school and I was trying to think of ways NOT to go home. Not to have to deal with this anymore and then I recalled what she had mentioned to me 2 yrs earlier. She once jokingly said that perhaps she was bipolar. Her sister has often asked her to seek a psych but my W doesn't believe there is anything and a psych wouldn't be able to help anyway.
So I looked at my diary entries from Dec-March and I noticed something VERY peculiar. Every 7-8 days there was this 'split' happening. Just like clockwork. We would have a great week; happy, intimate, close, smiling, laughing and then SNAP! over something minute and trivial.
So I wan a search 'why does my wife's behaviour change every 8 days' and that led me to UpTown's thread where he discusses BiPolar and BPD.
I had tears in my eyes. What have I been living with for 21 yrs? Every single scenario I had lived through except that my wife IS cycling every 8 days. I know she has daily emotional fluctuations over trivial things but she says it is anxiety and she deals with it. Every 8 days there is a MAJOR explosion and no matter what we have done over the previous 7 days, if she had a weapon in her hand I keep thinking she would use it on me!!! 
Today, 13 March 2014 I went for a psychoanalyst session. He looked at me and said, 'so what are you doing with your anger?' My anger? Control it, rationalise it. Process it. Then I write, or play guitar or take photos. 
Then he asked, 'how much longer can you hold out?' 
An excellent question. _How much longer?_
He agreed that all the examples I had given could place her in the 'extreme BPD' group and that a commitment to long term therapy could be beneficial.
I have booked an appointment for my W. She wants me to go with her (she is already feeling the anxiety even though the appointment is 2 weeks away).
I'm no martyr. I'm no saint. I love my W. I'm not looking for, 'Hey, well done!' There is no 'well done' in this story. It may well be a dark place for many years to come. There has to be hope. There has to be a light at the end of the tunnel.


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## cagedrat (Jan 12, 2014)

I commend you for not just walking out the door but I would also pat you on the back if you were brave enough to exactly that. Your situation is terribly painful and I am so sorry for you. I hope your wife's evaluation with the doctor goes well and that she is receptive to what he has to say. Maybe this will come just in the knock of time. Keep us posted, you must be a very strong person to have coped and adapted to this abnormal situation.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

Let me see if I have this right. You wife can humiliate and disrespect you time and again and put your health at risk for STD's but it seemingly is acceptable to you since you feel she has BPD. You will sacrifice your life and happiness for her and allow her to wreck havoc on you and your children because she has BPD. You hurt yourself and your hurt your children in that you will always excuse her hurtful behavior and actions due to BPD. Maybe you should think about putting your children as your number one priority. It really seems to a degree that you would have to be a type of masochist to put up with this. Your wife clearly has no respect for you. If you do not respect yourself then who will?


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Your wife is BPD. My EX-GF is BPD. She would cycle every 7 days. It is amazing the pattern. I understand quite well about BPD.

This forum is about infidelity, i.e. cheating spouse. Was your wife cheating on you? I might have missed it.

To understand how a BPD person acts, you cannot just make rational sounding conjectures. They do NOT think like we do, so please understand that you cannot judge her actions like that of a non BPD person.

You can look at the effect of what she does and deem it healthy or not, but you cannot attribute to her acting disrespectful etc... Unless you know BPD, you really don't understand. It is not fun to deal with. Headspin and myself have dealt with it personally here. Soulpotato has as well. Uptown knows a ton.


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## Vincent_68 (Mar 8, 2014)

bryanp said:


> Let me see if I have this right. You wife can humiliate and disrespect you time and again and put your health at risk for STD's but it seemingly is acceptable to you since you feel she has BPD. You will sacrifice your life and happiness for her and allow her to wreck havoc on you and your children because she has BPD. You hurt yourself and your hurt your children in that you will always excuse her hurtful behavior and actions due to BPD. Maybe you should think about putting your children as your number one priority. It really seems to a degree that you would have to be a type of masochist to put up with this. Your wife clearly has no respect for you. If you do not respect yourself then who will?


Believe it or not, this morning when I got back from the psych and was making the beds I thought exactly that, "I must be a masochist."
As for your other comments- yes, you are right. What I haven't mentioned is that for 21yrs I have been a Primary School teacher. It is in me to care and nurture. I have to see beyond a person's present circumstance and believe they have the ability to be a greater individual. Otherwise, I would have written MANY children off by now.
I currently have 30 8yr old students. 4 of which are extreme behaviours. I use the same strategies as I do with my wife at the moment and the change in the classroom has been incredible.
The moment a substitute teacher enters the room to take over OR those boys get onto the playground it is mayhem.
Do I give up on them? Do I give up on my wife of 21yrs?


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## Vincent_68 (Mar 8, 2014)

MovingAhead said:


> Your wife is BPD. My EX-GF is BPD. She would cycle every 7 days. It is amazing the pattern. I understand quite well about BPD.
> 
> This forum is about infidelity, i.e. cheating spouse. Was your wife cheating on you? I might have missed it.


Yes, infidelity last November (2013) which is what I am also dealing with at the same time as the 'splitting'.
As far as I know there was the 'one off' physical affair after a 2 month emotional affair.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Have you and your wife started DBT? You have the coping mechanisms for dealing with the raw power of the emotional children. The BPD can be just as powerful but with the force of an adult.

I had my EX-gf start DBT but she refused to go so we don't see each other.

There is a difference between being there for someone and enabling that someone. The whole process of their reasoning is very strange. 

Did she have child hood trauma or is her BPD from a probably genetic issue?

I did not want to be my EX-gf doormat so I held her accountable. She was not willing to do her part, hence the EX. Your choices are yours, but I believe that you should not enable her and I encourage you to be firm with her while being supportive.

It is awful to deal with. 21 years is forever... I had 1.5 years. That was intense.

When I found she had BPD, I did not throw her away. I gave her an opportunity to help herself. If she chose to do that, I would have stayed with her. She did not so I had to leave.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

I'm sorry Vincent. I too commend you for you diligence. I have a bipolar brother... i have a number of teachers in my family as well, so I can also understand the logic of believing in people, when everyone else around you might have given up. If she is receptive to wellness, it can be much better... she has to do the work though. She is lucky to have you, as are your students.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Hello Vincent,



You do realise that BPD has a poor prognosis even with therapy?

You have to decide what you can live with and for how long.

If you decide to continue with this relationship, then your best bet is the carrot and stick approach. Having exceptionally strong boundaries around her behaviour are essential for you to survive without deep seated anger and rage building up even more inside you. Not good for anyone.

You have opened the door to understanding what BPD is. 
Now opened it can't be closed again. Though learning about BPD can be very helpful on the one hand, on the other it's can generate feelings of hopelessness and despair. This is why your first priority should be towards your own health and needs, next comes the health of your sons and only then should you be worrying about her.

Her anxiety will only get worse as she gets older unless she is willing and enthusiastic about long term therapy. Even then the outcome is poor.



> I currently have 30 8yr old students. 4 of which are extreme behaviours. I use the same strategies as I do with my wife at the moment and the change in the classroom has been incredible.
> The moment a substitute teacher enters the room to take over OR those boys get onto the playground it is mayhem.
> Do I give up on them? Do I give up on my wife of 21yrs?


I don't think as far as outcomes are concerned, you can make comparisons with the children that you teach either. The relationship with your wife is wholly in another sphere altogether.
The dynamics are completely different.

The EA/PA must have been hugely hurtful to you. Yet you hardly sound affected by it? This is a massive thorn in the side of your marriage, quite apart from the BPD.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Please try and use paragraphs, it's hard to read that wall of text.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Vincent_68 said:


> What I haven't mentioned is that for 21yrs I have been a Primary School teacher. It is in me to care and nurture. I have to see beyond a person's present circumstance and believe they have the ability to be a greater individual. Otherwise, I would have written MANY children off by now.
> 
> I currently have 30 8yr old students. 4 of which are extreme behaviours. I use the same strategies as I do with my wife at the moment and the change in the classroom has been incredible.
> The moment a substitute teacher enters the room to take over OR those boys get onto the playground it is mayhem.
> Do I give up on them? Do I give up on my wife of 21yrs?


Vincent, you do not necessarily have to give up. A lot of people will tell you there's no hope for BPDers, but that's not true. If your wife really commits to therapy and is willing to do the work, the outlook can be quite good.  

I have BPD and almost lost my partner of 10 years over it, but I have had both therapy and DBT over the past year and have improved a lot. I learned how to better cope with and express my emotions (and how to DEFINE my emotions), especially the distressing ones. I'm still in therapy and still have a ways to go, but my partner and I have since reconciled and are working on our relationship together now.

It sounds like you have a huge heart. You believe in people. That can be a very GOOD thing. My partner is a little like you, and her belief in me gives me strength and a kind of support I just don't have the words to express. But I'm willing to fight for it, and to fight to become the kind of person who is an asset and a joy to her, not a burden or source of distress.

I do agree that boundaries and not enabling your wife are very important. Make sure you you're talking to a therapist who is very familiar with BPD and has training in treating it. You need someone to talk to, too, and coaching on how to deal with certain things. Be careful you don't get someone who is blindly discriminatory against BPDers as there are professionals out there who are, and they will harm much more than help.

Oh, the out of body feeling you talk about your wife having - that's likely dissociation. I've experienced that before. Feeling like I'm not "driving", and not being able to remember very well what I said or did at those times. I remember reading things I wrote and thinking, "Did I write that? I didn't write that...but wait, I think I recall seeing a word, or my hands moving. Maybe I did write that? It sounds like me..." We're talking being asked about something I had written recently (at the time)! There was also a conversation I had with my partner on V-day weekend of 2013 during which I became so upset that I could not remain connected. I think of it as the english muffin argument because I cannot remember anything except for the harsh sound of her voice, and pain-despair-english muffin. I can tell you what I put on that english muffin. It became the center of my world. I cannot tell you what she was saying to me, though.

It's like sometimes I have to ask myself, "Where am I?" We BPDers definitely have a self, but it is misplaced or distorted far too easily. 

Like your wife, I cheated on my partner - I had 3 overlapping EAs (as if one OW wasn't enough - sheesh). The reason I had 3 was to always have a source of validation, support, admiration, acceptance, affection, etc. If one wasn't available or was angry at me for the moment, another would be available and happy to talk to me. That was my triangulation. My safety, my wedge, my power, my comfort, my escape. It was easy and cheap, just a knock-off of the real thing, and it almost cost me what really mattered to me. 

Sorry so long!


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## Rottdad42 (Nov 26, 2012)

OP, I have a two family members who have been diagnosed Bi-Polar. With the proper meds and of course therapy, the issues can be managed. But when it comes to Borderline Personality, family member by marriage has. That one is a little more problematic. They are in essence all over the place. Now that I have said that, infidelity is a choice, period. Can you say your wayward, did the stupid because of that, maybe. I still think that people know what they are essentially doing. If you are having sex with someone other than your spouse and you are married, then you are wrong. From my experience therapy does help in small ways. It starts the process of finding boundaries. But like others have said, there is a poor outcome. This is a lifelong problem and it will never go away. 

You have been dealing with this behavior, every 7-8 days, for two decades. My question to you sir, do you have the stuff to deal with this for another 20+ years. I would have to say for me and my patience and tolerances, it would be a severe struggle. Now throw kids in the mix, that is too much to to be burdened with. Myself, after another man has touched my wife, I don't want to touch you ever. Can you blame the illness, or just her deep down cracked moral compass. Only you can answer that. In the end she has to want to understand it, come to terms with it and essentially manage it as best as she can. If you do "R" and that is a big "if", you will be pushed to your limits. I tip my hat to you mate, takes a strong person to shoulder this burden. Good luck.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Vincent_68 said:


> ...... All of her family live in France.
> Reflecting back over the 21 yrs I now accept that what I have been living with WAS NOT and IS NOT _normal_.
> *The 'splits' began early on* and ........
> 
> ...


I've just highlighted the main points really which highlight the never ending roller coaster life you have endured all 'normal' with a BDPer 

I had this for 15 years 

...and one thing you need to understand from the off is that YOU have not in any way caused this. She would have often had you on your knees feeling 'guilty' about this or that as you struggle to find reasons caused by YOU for her behavior. Now you are aware about the facts you can at last feel 'good' or better about your role in this.

You have of course been an 'enabler' in it all - you have to accept that but there's nothing wrong there that's based on your never ending love for her and ability to support her no matter what. Don't let anybody guilt you about that - ever and trust me they wil try.

In terms of the future concerning dealing with the condition ? *Truth is it's bleak*. Why? Because success, as you will see with Soul Potato, is based upon them admitting 

1/they have a problem 
2/accepting that and then 
3/doing something about it 

...and the terrible truth is that 19 out of 20 BPD simply do have that capacity to fulfill each one of those prerequisites - most of them play victim and do not accept they have a problem and if they do they often do very little about it because it's simply just too easy to live the life of victim and all the associated attention that goes with it. Plus they get used to hiding the condition in the most chillingly brilliant of ways 

Maybe you might take this to the health forum and just ask away ?

Whatever you do - all the very best luck as you'll need every it of it


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Vincent_68 said:


> I looked at my diary entries from Dec-March and I noticed something VERY peculiar. Every 7-8 days there was this 'split' happening. Just like clockwork.... my wife IS cycling every 8 days. I know she has daily emotional fluctuations over trivial things but she says it is anxiety and she deals with it. Every 8 days there is a MAJOR explosion.


Vincent, if your W has strong BPD traits as you suspect, it is very surprising that you've observed the rages occurring with such regularity. Whereas bipolar mood changes are caused by changes in body chemistry and thus often appear in a regular cycle, BPD mood flips are not caused by body chemistry changes. Rather, they are triggered by events, e.g., a minor thing you say or do that triggers a sudden release of anger she's been carrying since early childhood. Hence, unless the triggering events are occurring like clockwork, her temper tantrums should be somewhat irregular and unpredictable. 

I therefore am interested in hearing what your psychoanalyst has to say about your W's mental condition (e.g., BPD?) and what he believes is causing the one-week cycling. My best guess, if she really is a BPDer, is that one of the following two circumstances is causing the one-week cycling:


First, she may have bipolar as well as BPD. This would not be surprising because about 40% of female BPDers also suffer from bipolar. Even so, this seems to be a very unlikely way to explain 7-8 day cycling because such ultra rapid cycling is quite rare. Most bipolar suffers may experience a mood change maybe once a year. Having 4 mood changes in a year is considered to be "rapid cycling." I therefore doubt that the 7-8 day "cycling" is a significant warning sign for bipolar.


A more likely explanation, given that BPD rages are event-triggered, is that some event is causing her great stress at the same time each week. This could occur, for example, if some event is triggering her engulfment or abandonment fear every week. The most likely event, it seems to me, is her weekly contact with the OM, with whom she works -- presumably 5 days a week. I also note that you started observing her 7-8 day cycle in early December, right after she confessed on 12/7 to having had the PA with her work colleague.


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## Vincent_68 (Mar 8, 2014)

> Vincent, if your W has strong BPD traits as you suspect, it is very surprising that you've observed the rages occurring with such regularity.


I have been paying greater attention to this and have gently broached this with my W. Imagine my surprise when she told me that from the moment she wakes in the morning until she goes to sleep at night she has these intense emotions that she is trying to control.



> A more likely explanation, given that BPD rages are event-triggered, is that some event is causing her great stress at the same time each week...he most likely event, it seems to me, is her weekly contact with the OM, with whom she works -- presumably 5 days a week.


The OM is a train driver and she is a station manager. If they cross paths it is 1 or 2 times per week. She tells me about every 'path crossing' since Dec. She calls me up and says, 'So and so just came to the station. I feel so...and I had to call you.'

Fair enough. I do not feel threatened by this OM at all. Insignificant.

Others have replied about the PA and how that should have affected me etc etc
Hmm, I'm treating it as if it was something that could have happened before I knew/met her. Just like many adults may have had intimate partners BEFORE they married their current partner.
Well, I know I did. I also know that my W did NOT have any intimate partners before me. I married her when she was 19.
I suppose if I elaborate on the major triggers that led to the EA and PA it may help contextualise the 'self-destruct' path her BPD was steering her too?


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## Vincent_68 (Mar 8, 2014)

Further info to help build context.

Her returning to her birthplace and reliving her youth with her sister for 2 weeks (2012) was significant in my eyes. When she returned home I could sense a greater disconnect between us.
Also, at this time I was asked to step up to Deputy Principal which meant longer hours at work and following up when I was at home. (a grave error on my part I accept)

In Sept, 2013 her 3 week return to family inadvertently made her feel like the teenager/little girl she was and she realised the 21 years she has missed with her family.

My analysis was/is that her inner self started questioning her place and her self meaning. Essentially triggering a mid-life marriage crisis.

Tack onto this her BPD traits and you can start to see that what she was/is experiencing must be incredibly intense.

2013 was also emotionally draining for my W. Early on in the year she was diagnosed with breast cancer and had to have a double mastectomy. Add onto this that our Mr18 was admitted to rehab twice. Also add onto this her crashing her car into mine in the driveway. Also add onto this that in 2013 I stepped up to Principal status of my school (550 students) and was spending a greater amount of time at work and much less time at home.

Emotionally I was not there. I was engulfed in my 'world' partly due to the disconnect I was feeling.
Physically we were down to once or twice every 3 months.

So when I was told about the PA in Dec what bothered me the most was the lies, the cover ups. I never felt threatened about the actual PA. I knew that wouldn't last if she chose to pursue. There is no way someone would be able to put up with those mood swings/rages that I see regularly.

I joined up in an Environmental Changer course which gave me GREAT strategies. Fix yourself first. Plot a new path. Leave the old self behind and become the person you want to be.
My W has been very receptive to this 'new self' and we are MUCH better emotionally (talking daily, listening to each other) and physically (5-6 times per week if her shift work doesn't get in the way).

I have been pretty open with my W re the readings and research I have been doing. She has reacted as people her have suggested. Anxiety overwhelming her. Questioning if it's worthwhile doing. What if it's not me?

And then, she calms herself and says, 'will you help me follow through?' 'If this is the only way then I am going to have to do this.'

She actually said this.

I must point out though, we had a conversation yesterday and I told her some great things she has told me in the recent weeks.
She can't recall telling me those things. They were significant conversations where she was expressing how she felt and how she saw our relationship. 

So I am wondering if she will remember in 2 weeks time when it is her first visit with the analyst that she wants to follow through?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Does her physical affair bother you ? Does it affect you that she had sex with another guy ?


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## Vincent_68 (Mar 8, 2014)

warlock07 said:


> Does her physical affair bother you ? Does it affect you that she had sex with another guy ?


Initially, yes. I've wiped that from my conscience.
It wasn't me- morally I don't have to deal with that.
I know that morally I made a decision 21 yrs ago to stick with my W through thick and thin, good and bad, for better or for worse. Someone recently mentioned that I had integrity. So I looked it up. 

As for the 'masochism' reference. Isn't that akin to codependency? After 21 yrs I guess both of these definitions could be used. Is it by choice? Or through conditioning?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> I know that morally I made a decision 21 yrs ago to stick with my W through thick and thin, good and bad, for better or for worse.


I never understood this line of thinking TBH. I think how you interpret this depends on what your end goal is.


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> I never understood this line of thinking TBH. I think how you interpret this depends on what your end goal is.


]

21 years ago you made vows *together*.

When only one side honors their commitment most often a disaster occurs.

Since you are not looking for advise on dealing with Infidelity and are looking for dealing with BPD I recommend the NAMI site.

They have listing of support groups for caregivers of individuals with BPD.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Vincent_68 said:


> Initially, yes. I've wiped that from my conscience.


Actually with respect Vince you haven't. It is there and always will be 



Vincent_68 said:


> It wasn't me- morally I don't have to deal with that.
> I know that morally I made a decision 21 yrs ago to stick with my W through thick and thin, good and bad, for better or for worse. Someone recently mentioned that I had integrity. So I looked it up.
> 
> As for the 'masochism' reference. Isn't that akin to codependency? After 21 yrs I guess both of these definitions could be used. Is it by choice? Or through conditioning?


Sadly my friend you are in that place many of us have been - you are actually always in a way, in your own way, defending her. It shines through every line. I don't criticize you it shows the level of support you continue to give and why you have actually ended up where you are with it all.

The problem with long term enabling of a BPDer is that almost like a delay system you one day wake up and know, really know, deep down this is deeply unbalanced and wrong. Wrong of you to keep supporting something you know is actually an abusive situation whether you love her or not. That's when the inner conflict for you starts to send your life spiraling

In terms of the 'cycles' uptown has it, they tend to be in my experience over many months, when you can look at things in term of years, although of course struggling with the inner 'emptiness' daily 

Mine would be a 'meltdown' twice three times a year with one of them a major cataclysmic event. However of course with her willing to 'hold onto it all'9some IC some medication) we could have effectively 9 great months and three bad ones. But over time her control her willingness to puth marriage on the line meant she risked more - the episodes became 4 a year and two of them cataclysmic an starting to involve infidelity till after 15 year sit became three great months and 9 full of trauma upheaval for the children myself, other families etc etc and of course th great finger print the mark of the BPDer - Absolutely NIL remorse 

This time cycle is actually quite common with BPDs

How to deal with it? Only you can know this. From my own readings research there tends to be a shelf life with long term PBD relationships that involves the 'carer' finally waking up to the fact that it will probably always be like this unless the 'patient really does make tangible efforts to get better or at least not to get worse

You'll start to make more sense of years and events now that you have knowledge that's for sure 

Whatever help we can give we're here Vince


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Is the memory problem common with bipolar or bpd? Has aphysical problem been ruled out? Is she on medication?


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## Vincent_68 (Mar 8, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> Is the memory problem common with bipolar or bpd? Has aphysical problem been ruled out? Is she on medication?


No medication.
Over the years we have spoken about therapy for her and she has shut down and avoided anything to do with it.
I understand *now* more than ever before why she was avoiding it.
I shared @SoulPotato response with her last night. She connected instantly and started opening up even more.
Her memory 'blanks' are becoming more frequent. 

Last week she realised, 25mins late, that she had to pick up our Mr9 from school as it was a school day. 
Lots of other 'absent-minded' events daily. 
Can't find keys (in her bag), 
can't find wallet (in the car where she left it), 
did she turn the hair straightener off? (I've had calls at 5am in the morning asking me to go check as she leaves for work at 4:30am)

Something I don't understand from many of the responses. When people speak about 'enabling' and how the end is bleak, or how my reaction to the PA is 'weak' (in essence). I don't understand *what* the alternative is?
Yes, I could have asked her to leave. I gave her the choice and she chose to stay and work on rebuilding.
Yes, I could choose to leave- to what end? To get back at her? To demonstrate to my sons, 'this is how you work things out'???

I'm puzzled?


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## Vincent_68 (Mar 8, 2014)

Headspin said:


> after 15 years it became three great months and 9 full of trauma upheaval for the children myself, other families etc etc and of course the great finger print the mark of the BPDer - Absolutely NIL remorse


Yes, Yes, Yes.
I spoke with her about this exact thing. Why is it that you never apologise for the hurtful rage you express?
Her response, 'because in that moment everything I see is true so there is nothing for me to apologise for.'
Simple.

Yet, for a 'normal' person it is *not* simple. 

Is it really _that_ simple for a BPDer?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Vincent_68 said:


> Her response, 'because in that moment everything I see is true so there is nothing for me to apologise for.' ...Is it really _that_ simple for a BPDer?


At a conscious level, yes, it does seem to be _"that simple."_ A BPDer has such a fragile self image that she cannot tolerate having to deal with ambiguities, strong mixed feelings, and uncertainties in close interpersonal relationships. The is one reason that BPDers shoehorn everyone into a white box ("with me") or a black box ("against me") -- so they know how to deal with them in a simple manner.

A BPDer's subconscious assists them in that "simplification goal" by protecting her fragile ego (i.e., her conscious mind) from seeing too much of reality. And, whenever she is under great stress, her subconscious "splits off" her adult logic, putting it out of reach of her conscious mind. This is why, whenever you want to discuss a sensitive subject with her, you are immediately dealing with the intuitive child in her mind. This makes it impossible to discuss the subject with the logical adult part of her mind. 

This also explains why, when she is under stress, her intense feelings constitute self-evident "facts" to her. That is, because her adult logic is split off and out of sight, she does not intellectually challenge those intense feelings to figure out if they really make sense. Instead, she (i.e., the child that is always put in control during stress) decides that any feeling that is so intense MUST be true. 

The result, of course, is that she will try to justify those intense feelings with rationalizations so absurd that you will be amazed any adult is capable of saying them while holding a straight face. At a conscious level, she will believe what she is saying. And, a week later when she's saying the exact opposite, she will believe that nonsense too.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Uptown said:


> The result, of course, is that *she will try to justify those intense feelings with rationalizations so absurd that you will be amazed any adult is capable of saying them while holding a straight face.* At a conscious level, she will believe what she is saying. And, a week later when she's saying the exact opposite, she will believe that nonsense too.


This is a truly staggering and groundbreaking moment when you undergo this. You end up leaving those conversations thinking there is something wrong with you / me!! 

You simply cannot believe someone right in front of your eyes will sustain a logic so warped you can only think you misheard misunderstood missed everything - it must surely be your fault for being the stupid you don't get it 

Then the days pass and she comes down 'off' it and starts behaving so sweet, starts the great sex all becomes calm and you think of that conversation again and turn it over in your mind again convinced it must be you that cannot grasp the essential logic and common sense in what she said. you accept you are the one lacking in understanding and reasoning.

All is well until three months later and after months of euphoria - WHAM !! from nothing out of the blue up comes the same thing maybe different subject matter 

After years of this, one day you awake, and then the resentment and anger starts deep within you as another affair cheating treachery and in her black and white world where yesterday you were great and should never change and yet three days later she is love with the love of her life who will give her this life she now feels she always deserved and you are the sh!t in her way !!!! and you get this same response to whatever the problem is and then that's it 

THAT'S IT suddenly somehow you see the light, realize you are being slowly, emotionally, mentally, dismantled piece by piice and now you need to fight back to save your own sanity

That's where the end begins


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## Vincent_68 (Mar 8, 2014)

Well, today is day 8 (March 15) since the last 'split' finished on Fri 7 March.
We went to the city this morning to take our Mr9 to French school. While he was there we had 2hrs to ourselves and we walked around and shopped. Talked. Laughed. Held hands etc.
Normal stuff.
Got home around 5pm.
At 8pm she was about to get ready for work (starts at 10pm - 6am) and we were talking outside.
She asked about moving house.
I said, "yes I agree with you however it's not as easy as 'click your finger', it could take 1 or 2 yrs before we find the right place and fix our finances."
I was honest. I'm not going to sugar coat reality.
It was like a veil descended upon her.
I looked at her and asked, 'What are you feeling right now?'
She replied, 'Disappointment.'
That was the last word she spoke to me for the next hour before leaving for work. No goodbye. No 'see you in the morning'. No kiss goodnight that she insists we do whenever we go to work.
Usually when she arrives at work she will call as well. Nothing.

Hopefully I can employ strategies to bring her back in less than 36 hrs?


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Vincent, I'm so sad to hear of your situation. 

To me it sounds like a medical issue more than anything else and one that hasn't been addressed properly. Have you got a good psychiatrist? and I mean one who *specialises* in BPD and/or BP because mental illness covers a very broad spectrum. 

You mentioned in passing that she had a double mastectomy. OMG, that's HUGE. It would send any woman over the edge never mind someone who probably already has a serious mental disorder. Has she had a reconstruction? How does she handle it? That may be a big part of her wanting to sell the home for example. In any case it's a life-threatening illness she has to deal with. 

On top of all that her close family live on another continent. 

It might be useful to visit a BPD and a bipolar forum. Certainly bipolar is very manageable and the vast majority lead normal lives. . . if they take their medication. I don't know anything about BPD. But I'm sure there would be plenty of information on a forum if you can find one.

TAM can certainly give you advice and support but your case IMO is not a simple one of betrayal. It is a very small part of a much bigger problem. On the betrayal side of things it would seem that she has done a lot right. She has given you all the details and as you said she was perhaps 'too' honest about it so you have no lingering doubts there - you are one of the lucky ones BTW as opposed to being trickle-truthed. She phones you when she bumps into OM and there was no previous history of betrayal. 

How is Amb now? 

I think you are at your wits end because of her behaviour and not so much her betrayal in particular. I also think that only good, and I mean good, professional help will address the situation.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Why did title your thread, The Straw that Broke the Camel's Back? It's quite obvious that NOTHING your cheating wife does is a deal breaker for you, and you will take her back no matter what happens. 

You are setting a BAD example for your sons. You are teaching them that adultery is OK, and that they should have low self esteem, and that's how they should handle their own marriages when they grow up.


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## rustytheboyrobot (Nov 20, 2013)

I'm not going to read every post tonight. I have to get a few hours of sleep. I have to. But I'm bi-polar and I'm nothing like you explain.

Or anyone else on page one and page two.

Guess that's everyone.

Never been heavily medicated but I take my pills.

I'll chat with you though.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Uptown said:


> At a conscious level, yes, it does seem to be _"that simple."_ A BPDer has such a fragile self image that she cannot tolerate having to deal with ambiguities, strong mixed feelings, and uncertainties in close interpersonal relationships. The is one reason that BPDers shoehorn everyone into a white box ("with me") or a black box ("against me") -- so they know how to deal with them in a simple manner.


:iagree:



Uptown said:


> A BPDer's subconscious assists them in that "simplification goal" by protecting her fragile ego (i.e., her conscious mind) from seeing too much of reality. And, whenever she is under great stress, her subconscious "splits off" her adult logic, putting it out of reach of her conscious mind. This is why, whenever you want to discuss a sensitive subject with her, you are immediately dealing with the intuitive child in her mind. This makes it impossible to discuss the subject with the logical adult part of her mind.


More like it's a skewed logic, a completely different set, from the usual "non-BPD" system. My own partner has said this to me, that it's like talking to a different person, but not an intuitive child. That "child" part is only evident at times of great distress.



Uptown said:


> This also explains why, when she is under stress, her intense feelings constitute self-evident "facts" to her. That is, because her adult logic is split off and out of sight, she does not intellectually challenge those intense feelings to figure out if they really make sense. Instead, she (i.e., the child that is always put in control during stress) decides that any feeling that is so intense MUST be true.


If something seems blazingly obvious and undeniably true to someone, are they going to challenge it? Likely not. I don't think even non-BPDers challenge those kinds of things in their own minds. It takes a lot for a BPDer to realize that her own mind is against her and she can't trust it. That's really hard.



Uptown said:


> The result, of course, is that she will try to justify those intense feelings with rationalizations so absurd that you will be amazed any adult is capable of saying them while holding a straight face. At a conscious level, she will believe what she is saying. And, a week later when she's saying the exact opposite, she will believe that nonsense too.


More like explanations. I don't think the BPDer is thinking that her feelings/thoughts _need_ justifications at that point. They simply ARE. And so "self-evident", she is merely trying to "explain" them to the other person until they see her reason and stop arguing.  She is frustrated that the non doesn't "get" it, because she thinks her reality is true and absolute and there is no room for anything else, certainly not a contradictory reality. 

Are they really that absurd? Someone's reality is his/her world. So it's not nonsense. It makes perfect sense in her world. It might be hard for someone to communicate with a BPDer if they are invalidating/devaluing/mocking the BPDer in their own mind. There's a good chance that the BPDer will pick up on that in their attitude. That said, it sounds like you are saying the non's reality trumps the BPDer's reality. That approach could be problematic in and of itself.

What people are saying at any given time is always going to be nonsense to someone, I guess.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> More like it's a skewed logic, a completely different set, from the usual "non-BPD" system.


Soul, I suspect we saying the very same thing while using different terminology to describe it. But please correct me if I am wrong. I would never describe BPDers as using a "completely different set" of logic, compared to that normally used by "Nons." My view is that both Nons and BPDers have access to the same basic human logic and emotions. Moreover, as feelings become intense, they color and distort the individual's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. This is true for Nons as well as BPDers.

This is why we all know, by the time we are in high school, that our judgment goes out the window whenever we experience intense feelings of infatuation, anger, love, or fear. And, because Nons do experience very intense feelings, they will behave like BPDers (i.e., exhibiting the same thought distortions) at various points in their lives. 

During early childhood, for example, we all behave like BPDers 24/7. And when the hormones surge during the early teens, most of us start behaving like BPDers all over again. Indeed, any hormone change can cause intense feelings, resulting in the same thought distortions. This is why, at various points in our lives (e.g., puberty, pregnancy, postpartum, perimenopause, menopause, menstruation, and times of great stress), we all can start temporarily behaving like BPDers again and again.

The result is that, by learning to spot BPD warning signs, the Nons learn far more than how to avoid marrying a BPDer. They also learn how to better understand their own dysfunctional behaviors at various points in their lives. Unfortunately, most Nons are unaware of the power of this BPD information to cast a bright light on their own occasional behaviors. They mistakenly think that BPD traits are only useful for diagnosing whether a person has full-blown BPD.

This mistaken view largely arises from the flawed way in which the APA's diagnostic manual treats BPD (and other PDs) as something one "has" or "doesn't have." For several decades, most of the psychiatric community has known that this dichotomous approach to evaluating BPD traits is absurd because BPD is a "spectrum disorder" we all have to varying degrees. This is why the APA is intending to fully replace this dichotomous approach with a graduated approach that makes it clear we all lie somewhere on that spectrum -- and that our positions on the spectrum will greatly change at various points in our lives. 

But you already know this. This is evident in your remark that _"if something seems blazingly obvious and undeniably true to someone, are they going to challenge it? Likely not. I don't think even non-BPDers challenge those kinds of things in their own minds..."_ I therefore believe we differ on this issue only in our choice of words. 

Because so many Nons believe BPDers have a thought process that is unfathomable and alien, I try to avoid terms like "completely different" and any suggestion that a BPDer has a different system of logic or thinking. Instead, I keep reminding Nons that they all have been there and done that themselves -- and likely will do so again when they get really angry, very infatuated, or experience a substantial hormone change. Sliding to and fro on the BPD spectrum is simply the human condition.


> Are they really that absurd? Someone's reality is his/her world. So it's not nonsense.


Granted, it is _"not nonsense"_ to the person experiencing the thought distortions (BPDer or Non). In an absolute sense, however, it is nonsense -- being the product of thought distortions caused by intense feelings. I still shudder when I recall some of the things coming out of my mouth when I was a teenager and, later, when I got very angry in adulthood.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Uptown said:


> Soul, I suspect we saying the very same thing while using different terminology to describe it. But please correct me if I am wrong. I would never describe BPDers as using a "completely different set" of logic, compared to that normally used by "Nons."


We probably are saying something very similar. Oh, but I meant as in more particular to my non-BPD system/me, not BPD vs non. Sorry if my speech was ambiguous. 



Uptown said:


> Unfortunately, most Nons are unaware of the power of this BPD information to cast a bright light on their own occasional behaviors. They mistakenly think that BPD traits are only useful for diagnosing whether a person has full-blown BPD.


You're right, usually it's the BPDer under the magnifying glass and the knowledge isn't applied in other ways.



Uptown said:


> Because so many Nons believe BPDers have a thought process that is unfathomable and alien


How true!



Uptown said:


> I try to avoid terms like "completely different" and any suggestion that a BPDer has a different system of logic or thinking. Instead, I keep reminding Nons that they all have been there and done that themselves -- and likely will do so again when they get really angry, very infatuated, or experience a substantial hormone change. Sliding to and fro on the BPD spectrum is simply the human condition.


I think if BPDers had completely different systems of logic than nons, it would always be apparent and there'd be no way for us to go unnoticed, right? But we do escape notice, especially those of us who happen to be high-functioning. 



Uptown said:


> Granted, it is _"not nonsense"_ to the person experiencing the thought distortions (BPDer or Non). In an absolute sense, however, it is nonsense -- being the product of thought distortions caused by intense feelings. I still shudder when I recall some of the things coming out of my mouth when I was a teenager and, later, when I got very angry in adulthood.


Is anything absolute?  Well, there is reason(ing) behind it, however nonsensical it seems from the outside. It's like certain normal processes are magnified and projected. I don't know, I just couldn't ever say the thoughts and feelings, even when BPD-driven, were nonsense. I guess I take myself and others too seriously.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

I have to say like most things in the human 'domain' we have a capacity to make this extremely complicated 

There are many things behaviorally, that non BPD and afflicted BPDers share - of course there always will be

The divergence however is in the the conscious decisions about events, about inflicting hurt and suffering that make the difference. *It's the choice.*

Underneath a PBDer is the justification. This is where the lack of remorse stems from finding any reasons that justify an action 

I'd take issue with thinking about BPDers. I do think there is a dark side to it all. 

I do believe they know how their thought process works and mostly it gets them a good life but one that every now and them explodes into oblivion taking everyone around them into the abyss with them. 

In time they themselves know that, they know they have this destructive capacity and how to use it, a BPDer can survey the wreckage strewn all around them as far as the eye can see so they are not blind to it "Oh it just happened " 

Here's my main problem personally with BPD and BPDers given this evidence and they just like anyone else can see, they know they have a problem that's obvious, but then wrestle with the ability to be honest and do something about it. 

Choosing to actually try to do something positive about it for the benefit of the people who are constantly on the receiving end of it is everything to me. But the realization it will probably irreparably cost them a very comfortable life and lifestyle pushes them into simply denying there is a problem at all. It's effectively a form of self preservation. 

That is so often at the root of this denial and is so fundamentally dishonest with themselves and with everybody else in their lives and the biggest fundamental deceit they use for their own advantage is 'love'. This is the get out of jail free card for the BPDer. While they are 'loved ' they can have their emotional cake and eat it to everybody else's expense.The moment that is gone or threatened then the 'game' is up. 

I write this and realize I sound bitter but that's okay because its the truth and it addresses the truth as far as I am concerned.

In all my years of living with, ending with, post with a BPDer reading and research I end up negative about BPD because it / they nearly always involve deceit dishonesty deflection and denial as core values for themselves. I think these 'qualities' are part of them as a person and they show it with every cycle, with every cataclysmic emotional collapse 

Deceit in actions and in thoughts and in cover ups to carry on leading a life that selfishly keeps them 'happy' whilst everybody else in their life careers around like a drunken schooner in a wild ocean trying to cater for their every need

I for one have no patience about who's 'reality' is the more valid. I just look at the colossal affects of the actions the pain and destruction caused and the outcome of it all - involving complete destruction all around them 

There is a lot of knowledge about this these days and sometimes we can often dress it up and hope to paint it in a different color that is not black but I have to say I rarely see any thing positive in outcome, treatment or behaviorally about BPDers and their 'sufferers' 

I'd like to 

I'd like to say that my own experiences were solely mine and unique to me, but sadly they are not - in terms of BPD my experiences and outcome are from what I see in the world in general the norm, the usual


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Headspin said:


> The biggest fundamental deceit they use for their own advantage is 'love'. ... they nearly always involve deceit dishonesty deflection and denial as core values for themselves....Deceit in actions and in thoughts and in cover ups to carry on leading a life that selfishly keeps them 'happy'....


Headspin, you're describing narcissism (NPD) and sociopathy (ASPD), not BPD. Granted, about half of BPDers behave exactly like you are describing. It has nothing to do with their BPD traits, however. Rather, what you are seeing are their NPD and ASPD traits. About three-fourths of BPDers also have one or two other PDs as well. Half of BPDers have co-occurring NPD and ASPD. See PubMed Central, Table 3: J Clin Psychiatry. Apr 2008; 69(4): 533–545..


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Headspin, you're describing narcissism (NPD) and sociopathy (ASPD), not BPD. Granted, about half of BPDers behave exactly like you are describing. It has nothing to do with their BPD traits, however. Rather, what you are seeing are their NPD and ASPD traits. About three-fourths of BPDers also have one or two other PDs as well. Half of BPDers have co-occurring NPD and ASPD. See PubMed Central, Table 3: J Clin Psychiatry. Apr 2008; 69(4): 533–545..


As I recognize many traits are intermingled in 'disorder' diagnosis uptown and sure we all even us 'normals' have minor elements of every disorder but we are separated imo by choice when accepting it as an affliction. 

I'd say my main point is that it is easy to come up with very 'justifiable' reasons for behavior. They can be all encompassing and complicated but at it's heart what we are talking about here often are the end product 

For me I cannot aportion 'blame' if nobody has any control over their actions.

This is a where empathy or sympathy for me dissipates. All the disorders we discuss here are not severe enough to warrant the excuse "I had no idea", "I just did it", "I had no control" 
BPD Bi Narc amongst others are all 'severe' disorder issues but they NEVER render the afflicted with an inability to stop and think about the consequences - hence the *choices* that are made 

Trouble is I think we dissociate behavioral patters from disorders and stop making a fundamental judgement that is simple and true. 

All of the disorders we talk of have 'selfishness' 'entitlement' as part of their core existence. We often forget those basics and hide them under a lot of pyro talk (my words) . This for me often gets them off the hook which in my experience is long term bad for them 

The 'love card' I mentioned hides so much, allows for so much leeway for them and its often only when that card has gone that we can see the true person underneath

I often see on the internet this comment about BPDers 'when we split and I had to look at her/him dispassionately I realized I had been living with a completely different person to the one I had thought. The difference the reality was shocking' 

Just like the aftermath of an affair/wayward spouse it is so rare when a BPDer actually owns their behavior their issues, their condition and then wants to get better, and actually does something about it


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Headspin said:


> My main point is that it is easy to come up with very 'justifiable' reasons for behavior. They can be all encompassing and complicated but at it's heart what we are talking about here often are the end product. For me I cannot aportion 'blame' if nobody has any control over their actions.


Headspin, I believe every respondent in this thread would agree with your main point that BPDers must be held fully accountable for their own bad behavior. Hence, trying to _understand_ their behavior certainly does not imply we are trying to _excuse_ it. 

Nearly every parent, for example, will tell you that he holds his four year old accountable for his bad behavior, allowing the child to suffer the logical consequences (within reason) of those bad choices. The parent knows that, when the child is protected from suffering those logical consequences, he has no incentive to learn how to control his emotions and make better choices. But, importantly, you will not find these parents painting their four year olds black -- claiming they are "fundamentally dishonest" and deceitful kids -- as a way to justify the need for such discipline.

Likewise, BPDers have the emotional development of a four year old. If they are to have any chance at all to mature and learn how to manage their own issues, they must be held fully responsible and allowed to suffer the logical consequences of their bad behavior. We can accomplish this, however, without painting them black, e.g., without claiming -- as you do -- that they are fundamentally dishonest and deceitful and have bad core values. There is no need to resort to the very same type of black-white thinking that BPDers are notorious for.


> I end up negative about BPD because it / they nearly always involve deceit dishonesty deflection and denial as core values for themselves.


My experience with high functioning BPDers is that their core values, i.e., sense of ethics and morality, are about the same as those for Nons. A BPDer does NOT abuse her spouse because she lacks ethics and morality -- or because she is fundamentally dishonest and deceitful. Rather, she abuses her spouse because her perception of his intentions is so severely distorted that she is convinced he is Hitler incarnate. She therefore is treating him in the same way that most ethical, highly moral individuals would choose to treat Hitler if he were still alive and they could get their hands on him.


> The divergence [between BPDers and Nons] however is in the *conscious decisions* about events, about inflicting hurt and suffering that make the difference. *It's the choice.*


My view is that BOTH the Nons and BPDers make very bad choices when experiencing intense feelings, because those feelings color and distort their perceptions of other peoples' intentions. What distinguishes BPDers from Nons, then, is that BPDers suffer far more frequently from thought distortions caused by their very intense feelings. This is why BPD is said to be a "thought disorder." Hence, your notion that BPDers somehow get to be that way by making bad choices is mistaken. Those bad choices are not the _cause_ but, rather, the _result _of being impaired by thought distortions. 

As to your view that the BPDer-Non difference _"is in the conscious decisions,"_ I note that most of the BPDer's outrageous decisions and choices are made _subconsciously_. Because a BPDer is filled with enormous self loathing and shame, her subconscious will protect her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes this, at the subconscious level, by projecting hurtful thoughts and feelings onto her spouse. 

The beauty of using projection as an ego defense is that, because it works entirely at the subconscious level, the BPDer never is consciously aware that she has done the projection. She therefore consciously believes the projection is real, i.e., that those hurtful thoughts and feelings are coming from her spouse. This is one reason that deliberate deceitfulness and cunning manipulation are strong traits of narcissism and sociopathy, not BPD.

Importantly, I am NOT saying that the BPDer in your life doesn't have these traits. Perhaps she does. And perhaps she has brown hair and speaks French. I am simply saying that none of these characteristics are defining traits for BPD.


> BPD Bi Narc amongst others are all 'severe' disorder issues but they NEVER render the afflicted with an inability to stop and think about the consequences - hence the *choices* that are made.


If BPD and bipolar are severe enough, they will produce thought distortions so strong that the individual will be unable to think clearly about the consequences. The high suicide rate for both of those disorders is evidence of that. I therefore would not use the term "NEVER." I nonetheless would agree that nearly all the BPDers (or presumed BPDers) discussed on TAM are high functioning, not low functioning. It is unlikely a TAM member would be dating a LF BPDer, much less be married to one. This, at least, is my understanding, Headspin.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Headspin, Uptown has it right. The problem with disordered thought patterns/processes (as in BPD) is that the BPDer's responses to events, interpretations of things, etc, are all based on those warped patterns. And a lot of those reactions and choices are subconscious, like there's some haphazard, dysfunctional flowchart in the depths of the BPDer's mind through which many things pass without reaching conscious consideration. I will guarantee you that untreated BPDers are NOT happy. Happy people are not self-destructive, self-harming, and suicidal. It is true that other people end up being collateral damage in the sphere of self-destruction, but not through entitled/greedy selfishness (but maybe survival selfishness, which we are all guilty of) by the BPDer, though as Uptown says, there are exceptions and cases where other disorders may overlap or show up through some strong traits. 

Yes, strong protective measures are in place in the BPDer's mind, defenses that start developing pretty early on, so those who are untreated are doing what they know, and we don't know how to do anything else (help is needed to learn different ways - a lot of people make assumptions about what "everyone" should know, but a lot of things are taught to us and internalized in childhood, and that which is missing or discouraged is not learned). Facing the damage and wrongness of the way we have developed, the way we have been living, and the effect it has had on others is IMMENSELY difficult. And as Uptown says, it requires a great deal of ego strength, which I'd say all BPDers struggle with. Like trying to keep a candle lit in a hurricane, lol.

Facing the fragmented self, owning everything, and seeking help - it sounds easy and reasonable, but it's terrifying, and it's one of the hardest things a BPDer can do.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Headspin, I believe every respondent in this thread would agree with your main point that BPDers must be held fully accountable for their own bad behavior. Hence, trying to _understand_ their behavior certainly does not imply we are trying to _excuse_ it.


As ever uptown immense respect for your deep knowledge articulation and honesty. 
My experience of dealing with BPD and Narc, two separate relationships where I lived with different exponents of both of these problems on a day to day basis for over 20 years and more importantly recent research going back for the last few years leads me to a different feeling. I follow oyur thinking your logic but cannot agree with your conclusions on much f it . I do not for a moment think you are trying to make excuses for any of it but in a real world scenario that is often what it can amount to be 

Basically both you and soulpot say the reality for the BPDer (at any given point) is so strong so genuine, so 'real' that they have no perception of a reality that they know deep down is a real choice with which their actions will destroy people lives and families.

For me I do not credit them with such a complex though process. The moment somebody is aware their actions will damage another person they then gain full responsibility for their actions be they BPD normal or whatever they are. That 'awareness takes the whole process into a different arena. That one single aspect is a mental game changer. You seem to say they are lead, they have little choice they have a reality that they believe in so therefore ...etc etc ... 

I'm sorry but that for me is fundamentally wrong - it DOES get them off the hook and I see many many real lie examples of it. It is almost a duel issue they can sure have the emotional capacity of a young person but they seem to manage to make grown up decisions based upon what's happening now with no trouble at all. They DO know the consequences of decisions actions and so for me are answerable for them not with standing that a warped thought process may have taken them to a place where choices now have to be made 

The 'darkness' about it that I talk of is that they seem able to get themselves to the brink and able to havin fked up everybody elses life, to manage to just pull it all back to a 'normal' reality so they can carry on as 'usual' The kind of thought process behind that little 'trick' if you like says a lot about how disordered people 'manage' their lives.

I'm afraid I credit them with far more deliberation and choice than you uptown. I do see your point but I see a little too much theory and analysis in it 



Uptown said:


> If they are to have any chance at all to mature and learn how to manage their own issues, they must be held fully responsible and allowed to suffer the logical consequences of their bad behavior. We can accomplish this, however, without painting them black, e.g., without claiming -- as you do -- that they are fundamentally dishonest and deceitful and have bad core values. There is no need to resort to the very same type of black-white thinking that BPDers are notorious for.


No not all are as bad as another obviously not. No they are not *all* fundamentally dishonest BUT a lot of them are and use the disorder to their advantage, which makes them calculating and in their threats manipulative and shallow. 

Why is the whole BPD outlook in terms of treatment so low so negative - why ? Because the success rates are low - end of - that's the truth 

And why? because from many conditions addictions mental issues *we all know* the best and most fundamental first step of a cure or recovery is self recognization about the issue and BPDers in my experience are probably the worst in terms of denying their condition, hence very little effort to want to get better. This is known. It's fundamental The success rate is minimal because they do not see themselves as needing treatment. It's that simple 
*
And that tells you a lot* about the inner mentallty behind it - why be remorseful if you think you've done nothing wrong, although when you have your windows of honesty you do know the truth about yourself and what you have inflicted upon others. One of the strongest traits of all 




Uptown said:


> My experience with high functioning BPDers is that their core values, i.e., sense of ethics and morality, are about the same as those for Nons. A BPDer does NOT abuse her spouse because she lacks ethics and morality --


ino Yes she does or she would not do some of the appalling acts she does 



Uptown said:


> or because she is fundamentally dishonest and deceitful. Rather, she abuses her spouse because her perception of his intentions is so severely distorted that she is convinced he is Hitler incarnate. She therefore is treating him in the same way that most ethical, highly moral individuals would choose to treat Hitler if he were still alive and they could get their hands on him.


However by the next morning when the mist clears and she has the wonderful husband she's always wanted and had destroyed more lives sees the 'real' reality - there is the evidence that she needs to do something tangible about the problem. That's the problem uptown/sol if the BPDer never came out of that 'dark place' you'd have every reason to throw 'they are not responsible for their actions' at them. BUT as we KNOW they always come back from that 'brink' to say "O God what have I done I'm so sorry" *until the cycle starts again a few months weeks later* which they have control to stop to try to stop to actually do something about - *BUT they rarely do* and THAT is the point. 



Uptown said:


> My view is that BOTH the Nons and BPDers make very bad choices when experiencing intense feelings, because those feelings color and distort their perceptions of other peoples' intentions. What distinguishes BPDers from Nons, then, is that BPDers suffer far more frequently from thought distortions caused by their very intense feelings. This is why BPD is said to be a "thought disorder." Hence, your notion that BPDers somehow get to be that way by making bad choices is mistaken. Those bad choices are not the _cause_ but, rather, the _result _of being impaired by thought distortions.


I dont think they get to be that way but it's not so black and white. They are what they are, think how they do but for me the 'distortion' as you put it is never strong enough to overide the inner moral and ethical controls that seem to 'pop up' when they need them . Just that they then imo CHOOSE to ignore them for whatever suits them at the time.



Uptown said:


> As to your view that the BPDer-Non difference _"is in the conscious decisions,"_ I note that most of the BPDer's outrageous decisions and choices are made _subconsciously_. Because a BPDer is filled with enormous self loathing and shame, her subconscious will protect her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes this, at the subconscious level, by projecting hurtful thoughts and feelings onto her spouse.


Yes but they manage to step out of that and make a conscious decision about any given decision that they KNOW will decimate all around them 
As I mentioned that's really self preservation kicking in for the BPDer 



Uptown said:


> The beauty of using projection as an ego defense is that, because it works entirely at the subconscious level, the BPDer never is consciously aware that she has done the projection. She therefore consciously believes the projection is real, i.e., that those hurtful thoughts and feelings are coming from her spouse. This is one reason that deliberate deceitfulness and cunning manipulation are strong traits of narcissism and sociopathy, not BPD.


I dont get that I see that a a trait of BPD also


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> Headspin, Uptown has it right. The problem with disordered thought patterns/processes (as in BPD) is that the BPDer's responses to events, interpretations of things, etc, are all based on those warped patterns. And a lot of those reactions and choices are subconscious, like there's some haphazard, dysfunctional flowchart in the depths of the BPDer's mind through which many things pass without reaching conscious consideration. I will guarantee you that untreated BPDers are NOT happy. Happy people are not self-destructive, self-harming, and suicidal. It is true that other people end up being collateral damage in the sphere of self-destruction, but not through entitled/greedy selfishness (but maybe survival selfishness, which we are all guilty of) by the BPDer, though as Uptown says, there are exceptions and cases where other disorders may overlap or show up through some strong traits.
> 
> Yes, strong protective measures are in place in the BPDer's mind, defenses that start developing pretty early on, so those who are untreated are doing what they know, and we don't know how to do anything else (help is needed to learn different ways - a lot of people make assumptions about what "everyone" should know, but a lot of things are taught to us and internalized in childhood, and that which is missing or discouraged is not learned). Facing the damage and wrongness of the way we have developed, the way we have been living, and the effect it has had on others is IMMENSELY difficult. And as Uptown says, it requires a great deal of ego strength, which I'd say all BPDers struggle with. Like trying to keep a candle lit in a hurricane, lol.
> 
> Facing the fragmented self, owning everything, and seeking help - it sounds easy and reasonable, but it's terrifying, and it's one of the hardest things a BPDer can do.


Listen soul I respect you, you are one of the very very few that will sit here and face it, own it, take responsibility.

But I simply don't agree with much of it. In my real life experience and research all be it amateur BUT a lot of sensible detailed research non the less. There's one fundamental thing about being out of control on a permanent basis, being lead to make life damaging choices that affect families wives husbands children etc etc and that is whether the afflicted phase in and out of the 'periods' cycles where they have no control no conscious choices. If they simply entered that thought process _and never came back then fine_ I'd sit here and say 'Well there you go you are clinically so deeply troubled you have no idea at all, EVER, of knowing the consequences of your actions so you are basically insane at some level 

*now THAT gets you off the hook* - "I really did have NO IDEA about what I was doing" 

'disorders' are often incumbent in manipulative shallow selfish people. Being 'disordered' has some basic constituents imo - selfish entitled manipulative and little remorse 

I have looked at the things you have said about your condition and yeah it's difficult for you. I have seen at first hand how difficult it is by living with that and yes I sympathize - I must do, I gave my unconditional support to two women for over 20 years (6 and 15 years ) 

*But* they were* not* mad - they although not in control of when the 'darkness' would descend were completely in control of their faculties, whether they would do anything serious about getting help and treatment 
And like most BPders they did not because having found a love that would support them nomatter what they threw, the lives they lead through the whole process were generally very very good and so they were intelligent enough when at the brink of total destruction, to just pull it back to keep it all going .....nomatter what maybe long term damage it did to their partner husband wife children etc etc 

That's not madness, that's not subconscious that's manipulation on a high level and I believe nearly every BPDer narc has that as part of their 'condition'

Some like you, at least have the courage to face your responsibilities BUT you are far an few between.

Like you, I look to 'support' you / these people, but I will never give them an 'out', as I don't actually think that helps. Strict borders help imo not "well I understand that your reality made you believe this or that so you had little option" in my experience that is a green light. 

This is the infidelity forum its the same as in a reconciliation not having proper borders. If they are not in place it will fail 

If anything by a betrayed spouse is not hammered into place ie a red light then it will fail - it's simple. 
If you live with a BPDer or any other disorder if you hope and pray it will get better on it's own - it will fail 

The trouble is in the end it often fails anyway because deep down the BPDer does not actually want many things to change (some of course) but not the ones that make the relationship stable imo anyway


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Headspin said:


> Uptown.... I follow your thinking your logic but *cannot agree with your conclusions on much of it*.... I'm afraid I credit them [BPDers] with far more deliberation and choice than you uptown.


Headspin, I believe our views are far closer than what you describe. Perhaps I'm mistaken but I suspect that we primarily are disagreeing only on how BPD behavior is defined, as I discuss below. 


> I dont get that [i.e., _"that deliberate deceitfulness and cunning manipulation are strong traits of narcissism and sociopathy"_]* I see that a a trait of BPD also.*


 Headspin, you are free to define "BPD" however you want to, as long as you make it clear to readers how you are using that term. But it is important to be aware that the psychiatric communities in the U.S. and Europe both use those traits (i.e., cunning and deceitfulness) very differently than you do. They use them to define Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD), not BPD. 

The World Health Organization's ICD-10 diagnostic manual, for example, does not list those traits for BPD (which they call "Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder"). Likewise, the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5) excludes those traits from the nine symptoms listed for BPD. Instead, the APA includes the terms "deception," "repeatedly lying," and "conning" as one of the seven defining traits for ASPD.


> No not all are as bad as another obviously not. No they are not *all* fundamentally dishonest BUT *a lot of them are* and use the disorder to their advantage, which makes them calculating and in their threats manipulative and shallow.


We are in agreement that "a lot of" BPDers are "fundamentally dishonest." If you follow the link I provided in note #36 above, you will find that the large-scale BPD study concludes that 14% of BPDers also have full-blown ASPD and about 40% of BPDers also have full-blown narcissism (NPD). 

These results therefore support your view that "a lot of BPDers" (i.e., 14%) are dishonest and cunning liars. They also support your view that "a lot of BPDers" (i.e., 40%) are extremely selfish and have a strong sense of entitlement. These results do not imply, however, that such traits are BPD characteristics. Rather, they are characteristic of ASPD and NPD -- and of BPDers who happen to have those other disorders. As I noted earlier, the vast majority of BPDers in North America and Europe have brown hair but this does not imply hair color is a BPD trait.

Importantly, BPD is NOT like a disease -- such as cancer -- that can produce a wide gamut of symptoms that vary greatly from person to person. Indeed, BPD is not a disease at all. Instead, it is only a "syndrome," i.e., a group of defined symptoms (none of which include dishonesty or cunning lies). Hence, with BPD, what you see is what you get. A person who is exhibiting most of those nine BPD traits at a strong and persistent level is, _by definition_, exhibiting a pattern of BPD traits. Likewise, anyone exhibiting dishonesty and cunning lies is, _by definition_, exhibiting an ASPD trait.

Of course, you can always argue that, because 40% of BPDers also exhibit strong narcissistic traits, that those traits should be considered "BPD traits" in addition to the nine already included. Similarly, you might argue that, because 14% of BPDers also have ASPD, those traits should be added as well. So far, however, the psychiatric community has been unwilling to combine them because most BPDers don't exhibit strong NPD or ASPD traits. Hence, it is unfair to most BPDers to claim they exhibit strong traits of dishonesty and are cunning liars. 

The psychiatric community is well aware, however, that there is a need to consolidate the ten PDs into a smaller number. It is an embarrassment to their profession that, although a disordered person has only ONE personality, those suffering from such disorders typically suffer from two or three of them. Another embarrassment is that, although all the PDs are spectrum disorders that everyone has to some degree, the diagnostic manuals prescribe an absurd, dichotomous approach in which the client is diagnosed as "having" or "not having" each PD. 

If physicians used this same approach in medicine, they would never tell a client his actual height. Instead, they would tell everyone over 6'3" that they are "tall" and everyone else that they are "short." Likewise, they would not disclose a person's actual weight. Instead, they would tell everyone over 280 pounds that they are "heavy" and everyone else that they are "light."

To deal with these embarrassing diagnostic problems, the APA's Personality Disorders Work Group recommended in late 2012 that the 10 PDs be consolidated into 6 PDs (which still included BPD, NPD, and ASPD as separate disorders). They also recommended that the APA move away from this old categories-based approach to defining PDs, while moving closer to a traits-based approach that reflects differences in the severity of traits (e.g., low, normal, mild, moderate, and severe). 

The APA decided in December 2012 that, although these recommendations have much merit, further empirical work is needed before implementing them. Hence, the new diagnostic manual released in May 2013 (DSM-5) retains the ten PDs but, in Section III, encourages research trials on the newly proposed methodology.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Headspin, I believe our views are far closer than what you describe.......... Perhaps I'm mistaken but I suspect that we primarily are disagreeing only on how BPD behavior is defined, as I discuss below.
> Headspin, you are free to define "BPD" however you want to, as long as you make it clear to readers how you are using that term. But it is important to be aware that the psychiatric communities in the U.S. and Europe both use those traits (i.e., cunning and deceitfulness) very differently than you do. They use them to define Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD), not BPD.
> 
> The World Health Organization's ICD-10 diagnostic manual, for example, does not list those traits for BPD (which they call "Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder"). Likewise, the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5) excludes those traits from the nine symptoms listed for BPD. Instead, the APA includes the terms "deception," "repeatedly lying," and "conning" as one of the seven defining traits for ASPD.
> ...


Have to say uptown some of that is extremely contradictory in my view

_
The World Health Organization's ICD-10 diagnostic manual, for example, does not list those traits for BPD (which they call "Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder"). Likewise, the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5) excludes those traits from the nine symptoms listed for BPD. Instead, the APA includes the terms "deception," "repeatedly lying," and "conning" as one of the seven defining traits for ASPD.
We are in agreement that "a lot of" BPDers are "fundamentally dishonest." If you follow the link I provided in note #36 above, you will find that the large-scale BPD study concludes that 14% of BPDers also have full-blown ASPD and about 40% of BPDers also have full-blown narcissism (NPD). 

These results therefore support your view that "a lot of BPDers" (i.e., 14%) are dishonest and cunning liars. *They also support your view that "a lot of BPDers" (i.e., 40%) are extremely selfish and have a strong sense of entitlement*. These results do not imply, however, that such traits are BPD characteristics. Rather, they are characteristic of ASPD and NPD -- and of BPDers who happen to have those other disorders. As I noted earlier, the vast majority of BPDers in North America and Europe have brown hair but this does not imply hair color is a BPD trait._

Organisations are saying deception lies dishonesty is NOT on their lists of traits for BPD but other connected disorders to BPD *do* have them as intrinsic to the character of that disorder !!!???

If they are a big part of a disorder that is connected to BPD then surely they are a part of it. It's splitting hairs to say it is not isn't it ?
We already know that no one ever has exclusively just the one unique disorder , it's always one main one and a fair smattering of other characteristics , yes ?

All I know is that my stbx ( and thousands of others) exhibited most of the traits of a PBDer was diagnoised as such many years ago. 
In order to cover up her many infidelities and other lies she had to by definition be dishonest and a liar etc etc as does any BDPer that for instance is adulterous. Goes with the territory does it not ? ( I am also aware that not *every* BPder is adulterous)

I see every reason to conclude that any one afflicted with BPD is very likely to be prone to deceit dishonesty lying . I'd hazard a guess that there are not many who not those things 

Every time I see on here at TAM, a post or thread that involves BPD from a typically enabling betrayed spouse it always has deception callousness, lack of remorse, lying and deceit in the story. Every single time. I don't think I've encountered an exception ever? 

Now that I'm afraid you cannot argue with Uptown. The reality is on here in the forums with the stories from 'real' life 

I appreciate your immense wealth of knowledge Uptown, you always have your fingers on any and every statistic known to man 
BUT statistics often do not tell what is going on in the 'real' world


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Vincent 

Any news? where are you at with this currently ?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Vincent, are you working on yourself to learn more about boundaries and consequences? If you're going to stay with her, this should help immensely. Note that they are not about her, but about YOU and what you do when you are harmed.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Headspin, no one is saying that BPDers shouldn't be held accountable for their actions just because their reality is different, they have warped processing, etc. People should ALWAYS be held accountable. 

As for BPDers being dishonest and lying (both to themselves and others!)... I know that I do not deliberately lie to people I care about. I have, however, lied by omission because I did not want those people upset at me. (Like..."My partner might be upset that I spent my money on this video game because she thinks it's not worth it...so I won't tell her.") I seriously doubt they/we have the market cornered on lying and dishonesty. (There are many people without disorders who are dishonest and generally reprehensible.) That goes for selfishness, too, or any other negative qualities you want to mention.

Also, I think someone (including a BPDer) can cheat without being a mastermind at lying, manipulation, etc. And I have known a lot of BPDers to complain of being downright clumsy with people, especially in their relationships that are closer/more meaningful. I have also known some people I suspected had NPD or at least strong traits - now THERE'S mastery of manipulation and lying. 

I want to say, just because BPD and NPD can fully overlap, or a BPDer can have NPD traits, it does not mean they are the same thing. And a BPDer having NPD traits doesn't mean they'll get the full gamut, or be the same as dealing with a real NPDer. There is a difference.

TAM doesn't necessarily reflect a general or common reality.  If that were the case, 50-60% of the population would have BPD, lol, and 80% would be serial cheaters!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't think BPDs manipulate (intent of screwing with someone) so much as try to organize stuff around them to avoid the pain.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

> Every time I see on here at TAM, a post or thread that involves BPD from a typically enabling betrayed spouse it always has *deception callousness, lack of remorse, lying and deceit *in the story. Every single time. I don't think I've encountered an exception ever?


I'd say in at least half of these instances, there isn't even a diagnosis of BPD. 

The part I bolded, that can go for *ANY* WS. Not just those of us with BPD.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Listen soul I respect you, you are one of the very very few that will sit here and face it, own it, take responsibility.


I'm glad to hear that, and also that you appreciate my efforts. 



> But I simply don't agree with much of it. In my real life experience and research all be it amateur BUT a lot of sensible detailed research non the less.


What don't you agree with? The research, or my experience? Or something else?



> There's one fundamental thing about being out of control on a permanent basis, being lead to make life damaging choices that affect families wives husbands children etc etc and that is whether the afflicted phase in and out of the 'periods' cycles where they have no control no conscious choices.


I would say it's bursts of being out of control - poor impulse control, remember. Some BPDers have moments of awareness where the head comes out of the sand - but can't handle it, so they block it. Others never come up out of the sand. And still others succeed in becoming aware and doing something with that. But remember, if someone is making choices from a distorted place, it's not going to turn out well for anyone involved. 



> If they simply entered that thought process _and never came back then fine_ I'd sit here and say 'Well there you go you are clinically so deeply troubled you have no idea at all, EVER, of knowing the consequences of your actions so you are basically insane at some level


The trouble envisioning, understanding, and being aware of consequences is real. I don't know why. My partner and I have had conversations on it and how it has manifested in different areas of my life or with various decisions. It's like having a blind spot, I guess. Being so focused on one thing that you can't see anything else. 



> *now THAT gets you off the hook* - "I really did have NO IDEA about what I was doing"


I think even insane people should be held accountable.



> 'disorders' are often incumbent in manipulative shallow selfish people. Being 'disordered' has some basic constituents imo - selfish entitled manipulative and little remorse


Some disorders occur because of existing vulnerability combined with environmental factors, as with BPD. Has nothing to do with how the person starts out - they're not automatically manipulative, shallow, entitled, without remorse, and selfish. 



> I have looked at the things you have said about your condition and yeah it's difficult for you. I have seen at first hand how difficult it is by living with that and yes I sympathize - I must do, I gave my unconditional support to two women for over 20 years (6 and 15 years )


I appreciate that. It is very difficult being in here with it, and living with it. I actually share very little of my raw feelings and pain on TAM. I have compassion for what you've been through being on the receiving end of a BPDer (especially with ones who maybe had strong N traits).



> *But* they were* not* mad - they although not in control of when the 'darkness' would descend were completely in control of their faculties, whether they would do anything serious about getting help and treatment


The mind is a powerful, scary thing. It's complicated, Headspin. 



> And like most BPders they did not because having found a love that would support them nomatter what they threw, the lives they lead through the whole process were generally very very good and so they were intelligent enough when at the brink of total destruction, to just pull it back to keep it all going .....nomatter what maybe long term damage it did to their partner husband wife children etc etc


But that's not true. BPDers ALWAYS expect to be left, and they know it will happen. And you did withdraw your support and leave, so it wasn't no matter what - nor should it have been. Everything is conditional. Push-pull is a complicated dynamic, too.



> That's not madness, that's not subconscious that's manipulation on a high level and I believe nearly every BPDer narc has that as part of their 'condition'


Why could some elements not be subconscious? I know I usually didn't understand when someone would threaten to leave me. I didn't know what I was doing to bring it about a lot of the time, or what to do about their ire, so I would "play dead" and try to please and be quiet until their displeasure eased. 



> Some like you, at least have the courage to face your responsibilities BUT you are far an few between.


Thank you, Headspin. I have hope that the numbers are higher than that.



> Like you, I look to 'support' you / these people, but I will never give them an 'out', as I don't actually think that helps. Strict borders help imo not "well I understand that your reality made you believe this or that so you had little option" in my experience that is a green light.


No, support is one thing, permission is another. There should be accountability, consequences, and boundaries, certainly.



> This is the infidelity forum its the same as in a reconciliation not having proper borders. If they are not in place it will fail


Absolutely true. 



> The trouble is in the end it often fails anyway because deep down the BPDer does not actually want many things to change (some of course) but not the ones that make the relationship stable imo anyway


The trouble is fear. It's not the change itself, it's everything required to bring it about, and the threat of annihilation.

I am hoping Vincent's wife is willing to work hard in therapy and face all the damage. She is going to have a tough battle on her hands.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

turnera said:


> I don't think BPDs manipulate (intent of screwing with someone) so much as try to organize stuff around them to avoid the pain.


:iagree:


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## Vincent_68 (Mar 8, 2014)

Am at the psychotherapist for my W first session. The fear and trepidation was intense. When she was made aware that she had to go in alone she stood at the doorway to his office like a frozen child. If she could have run she would have.
"I have nothing to say" she said as she went in. That was 50minutes ago.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I hope it went well!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Vincent, I join Turnera in wishing the best for both of you.


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## Vincent_68 (Mar 8, 2014)

After 1hr and 5 mins my W emerged from the therapist's office. Silent.
I could sense, as I walked past her to pay the therapist, that something was not right.
Upon leaving I quickly learnt that she had 'split' and I was mildly black.
For the next 90mins I could see her trying to control her emotions as we drove home. I asked nothing. I did not probe. I remained silent. She tells me how inside she feels empty. Emotionally depleted.
Every now and then she would let out how she felt that the exercise was useless. It had no effect. I can't see how this is going to solve anything. The therapist didn't say I have BPD (he actually didn't label anything).
It felt like everything was aimed at me. I remained silent.
When we got home, a little more info.
Apparently she did open up and they explored her relationship with her father. The therapist asked how difficult it was to forgive her father. At the moment (as I type) this is the trigger. She is 'flipping' from smiles and conversation to silence and facial expressions of anguish.
She says, 'He asked me that. I moved on. It wasn't a question of forgiving or resolving.'
I have to distance myself.
Then she moves in for a hug, reassurance. We talk about our dinner menu for tonight and this distracts her.

Her next appointment is next week. Without me accompanying her.

One thing that stood out- W explained to Psych about her 'split' yesterday and how she tried to control it. He commended her.
I asked if she has ever been able to do that before and she replied that she cannot ever remember being able to in the past.
Since being aware about BPD through this forum (thanks UPTOWN) she has become more aware of the impact she is having on me and everyone around her.
Is this the beginning of a brighter future?


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

I wish you both the best. It seems you've been so patient and supportive of her during this time. Not sure how many other husbands would have stood by their wife while she was suffering the effects of her condition. You're a good man.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, sounds hopeful. Don't know if you've done therapy, but for all the good it does, it's hard! You spend the whole hour talking about bad stuff, feeling bad, crying even! It's like walking into an hour-long root canal. So maybe be prepared to treat her after the sessions or something, so she'll keep going.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Vincent_68 said:


> She would let out how she felt that the exercise was useless....the therapist didn't say I have BPD (he actually didn't label anything).


Vincent, as I've discussed on other threads, there are several reasons why therapists generally are loath to tell a high-functioning BPDer the name of her disorder. If you are interested, I discuss these reasons in my post at Loath to Diagnose. 

My exW, for example, was never told she had strong BPD traits even though she strongly exhibited all nine of them (and had been sexually molested for years in childhood by her own father). Although I payed for her to attend weekly sessions for 15 years with six different psychologists, not one of them ever told her or me about BPD. 

The last one she saw -- every week for 5 years -- always said "I don't believe labels are useful" whenever I would ask what was wrong with my wife. At my very last meeting with her, she grudgingly conceded that my exW has "a thought disorder," which is what BPD and other PDs are. Hence, if your W really does have strong BPD traits, your best chance of obtaining a candid opinion on her issue is to speak with your own psychologist, who is ethically bound to protect your best interests, not hers.

If your psychologist decides that you seem to be describing strong BPD traits, I would be especially interested in hearing how he explains the regular cycle of rages occurring every 7 or 8 days. As we discussed two weeks ago, BPD rages typically do not occur with such regularity unless there is something occurring once a week that triggers them. Unless there is an identifiable trigger event, I would be very surprised if you find that 7-8 day cycle continuing for much longer. When emotional instability arises from a personality disorder, people typically do not behave in such a predictable fashion.


> Her next appointment is next week. Without me accompanying her.


If the therapy is going to work, she has to have a strong desire to do it for herself, not for you. Moreover, traditional talk therapy generally is ineffective with BPDers. Instead, what is needed is a skilled professional who can teach her the basic emotional skills that the rest of us learned in childhood: how to better control her emotions, how to be "mindful" (i.e., remain in the room instead of escaping into daydreams), how to do self soothing, how to do mind distraction to break obsessive mind looping, how to avoid black-white thinking by tolerating dualities and uncertainties, how to be less impulsive, how to control jealous feelings, and how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as "self-evident truths." SoulPotato and Pidge know far more about this than I do.


> W explained to Psych about her 'split' yesterday and how she tried to control it. He commended her. I asked if she has ever been able to do that before and she replied that she cannot ever remember being able to in the past.


That is an encouraging development, Vincent.


> She has become more aware of the impact she is having on me and everyone around her. Is this the beginning of a brighter future?


I certainly hope so, Vincent.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Vincent_68 said:


> After 1hr and 5 mins my W emerged from the therapist's office. Silent.
> I could sense, as I walked past her to pay the therapist, that something was not right.
> Upon leaving I quickly learnt that she had 'split' and I was mildly black.


Vincent, since she triggered in the session, it is possible that everyone would have been in the "threat/possible enemy" box for a while, you especially (as the closest person capable of doing the most damage).



Vincent_68 said:


> For the next 90mins I could see her trying to control her emotions as we drove home. I asked nothing. I did not probe. I remained silent. She tells me how inside she feels empty. Emotionally depleted.


It's good that she has enough awareness and self-control to do that! The "empty/depleted" inside is something very common - that persistent, pervasive emptiness in BPDers. I still have times of feeling that way, used to feel that way a lot more. Sometimes it's practically a physical sensation, like someone carved out everything behind and below my ribs. A great hollowness, the aching empty void.



Vincent_68 said:


> Every now and then she would let out how she felt that the exercise was useless. It had no effect. I can't see how this is going to solve anything. The therapist didn't say I have BPD (he actually didn't label anything).


Try not to feel too discouraged. I said the same things when I started therapy and DBT. "This is stupid, it's useless, it's no good, I'm wasting my time and money!"  I was wrong, of course, but it was SO painful and frustrating to get the process started that I felt negative and despairing, and I wanted to reject it. As Uptown said, therapists are loath to tell anyone that they have BPD.



Vincent_68 said:


> It felt like everything was aimed at me. I remained silent.


She was probably doing some off-gassing, and you just happened to be there.



Vincent_68 said:


> One thing that stood out- W explained to Psych about her 'split' yesterday and how she tried to control it. He commended her.
> I asked if she has ever been able to do that before and she replied that she cannot ever remember being able to in the past.
> Since being aware about BPD through this forum (thanks UPTOWN) she has become more aware of the impact she is having on me and everyone around her.
> Is this the beginning of a brighter future?


She is learning. The more information she gets, the more she'll understand what she needs to be looking for. The more she learns, the more self-aware she can become. If she keeps with this, she will eventually start to see the processes as they begin and interrupt them, reroute them. This could be the beginning of something better, Vincent, but it depends on her. Therapy is going to be really hard and unpleasant. Try to remain encouraging, even when she tells you she wants to quit or says it's useless.


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## Vincent_68 (Mar 8, 2014)

Uptown said:


> I would be especially interested in hearing how he explains the regular cycle of rages occurring every 7 or 8 days...Unless there is an identifiable trigger event, I would be very surprised if you find that 7-8 day cycle continuing for much longer.


I've since learnt, through discussion with my W that she experiences a daily turmoil of emotions that she battles with. Most of them are about her being threatened by those around her, wanting to judge her. Hence the 'fight or flight' result. 

When in the workplace, or around colleagues it is easy to 'flight' when the going gets tough (what a non BPDer would deal with there and then on the spot). When at home there is little opportunity to 'flight' hence she falls into 'fight' mode or 'rage'.

You don't know how I feel since she has started to acknowledge how she deals with her emotions.

At the same time I look puzzlingly at her as most situations are misinterpretations. Trivial. Meaningless to a non BPDer. But the turmoil inside her is 'real' and as SoulPotato mentioned earlier, she often feels empty as if she has been completely carved out.

I have to admit that these last 2 weeks have been the hardest for me since my W midlife crisis in Nov 2013.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Focus on getting her to feel that discussing these things out loud with you are SAFE (ie no emotion from you, no bad feelings for telling the truth). The safer she feels to talk, the more of these examples of misinterpretations you can then hand back YOUR view of them, so she can grow to see there's another way to look at them.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Just be careful of how you give your interpretation of said events, Vincent, so that it doesn't feel invalidating to your W.

Sure there are definitely many cases of misinterpretation, but BPDers are known to be more sensitive to negative feelings in others, especially when directed towards them. So sometimes your wife may be picking up on something real that you do not. I've found that this has been the case with me (found out later that what I thought I picked up on had really been there and the other person had been trying to "hide" it).


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## Vincent_68 (Mar 8, 2014)

Update:
W has been going to therapy weekly and just recently increased to 2 visits per week.
A huge paradigm shift!
W can now recognise when emotions are taking over and how triggers are affecting her. She still can't control the emotion or the anxiety that takes over her.
Major episode 3 weeks ago that has caused her to be off work for 3 weeks. She was catatonic for 7 days. Just lay on the lounge from morning till evening. Not talking to anyone. Not moving. Not eating.
After 7 days I managed to get her to come with me to her weekly therapy and things started to rebuild. 
Two weeks down the track (today) she is almost ready to go back to work. That's where the last trigger occurred.

I cannot express my gratitude for the help and guidance received from this board.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

VERY good news, Vincent. I'm glad you're supporting her. Some day, she'll return the favor.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Vincent_68 said:


> W has been going to therapy weekly and just recently increased to 2 visits per week. A huge paradigm shift!


Vincent, that is great news -- i.e., that she has been going to therapy and that you've seen improvement in her self awareness. Thanks for giving us a status update. I was wondering how you two are doing. At this point, the difficulty you will experience -- if she is a BPDer -- is that it is very hard to determine whether real and lasting improvements are occurring. One reason is that it typically takes several years of weekly therapy -- at least -- for a large improvement to occur. 

Another reason is that, like smokers who are always "quitting" every 4 or 5 weeks, BPDers will be seen to always be dramatically improving. Distinguishing between a real improvement and another upswing on the roller coaster ride is difficult to do, particularly when you so badly want to believe the changes are permanent. 

With my BPDer exW, for example, I took her to weekly visits for 15 years with six different psychologists and 3 MCs. At first, I expected she might have to get worse before she got better. So I excused her behavior. Later, I convinced myself that some improvement was being made. Alas, it was not so. She got increasingly resentful each year of my inability to make her happy -- an impossible task. I therefore am very hopeful that your W will do much better than my exW. It is encouraging that she seems to be much more self aware.


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