# Resenting lack of affection from my wife :(



## hubbydude

Apologies if this ends up in a rant.....

My wife and I have been married for twelve years and I consider myself a good husband. I work hard to provide for my family, I keep myself in shape, I do my share of housework (in fact, I'm the tidy one), I support my wife's choices in her career and personal life even though it often puts an additional burden on me. I've never cheated, never fallen out with her friends or family. In short, outside of the trivial day-to-day reasons my wife has to complain about me, I've never been anything other than an ideal husband.

I've come to realize that I've spent the past ten years trying everything to keep some semblance of affection in our marriage but without success. I use the word "affection" intentionally so that you don't think it's all about sex (which IS a big part of it, but that's not all that's missing). I've tried being attentive and loving, romantic, assertive, I've tried playing it cool, I've tried being exciting and adventurous, I've tried ignoring her, I've tried pestering her, I've tried talking to her, I've tried getting into the best physical shape of my life, I've tried EVERYTHING, and every approach meets with rejection. Even when it's not full-out rejection, it's the tacit rejection of knowing that she's only giving me the time of day out of an apparent sense of obligation, and that within a day or two she'll have considered her obligation met and we'll be back to square one. I'm quite sure that if I told my wife that there was no need for us to ever have sex again and that it wouldn't be a problem for me, she'd be quite content with that. I however can't live with that, and I'm starting to resent her for putting me in a position where my only apparent choices are infidelity, divorce, or the prospect of never experiencing the joy, fun and excitement of a healthy sexual relationship ever again.

What do I do? "Talk to her, let her know how you feel" is what most people will say. But it will come as no surprise to her to hear how I feel. She knows how I feel but she chooses to ignore it. Seemingly, she would rather avoid the discomfort of recognizing that our marriage is in an unhealthy state than put in the effort to address my feelings of rejection, resentment and inadequacy and try to keep our marriage alive.

I feel like I've swam an ocean to drag our drowning marriage ashore, and now that it needs the kiss of life she continues to watch from the sidelines while I struggle to catch my own breath. I resent her for it, and that makes me very, very sad.

I love my wife. I don't want to resent her. What can I do?


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## Rowan

hubbydude said:


> In short, *outside of the trivial day-to-day reasons my wife has to complain about me*, I've never been anything other than an ideal husband.


So, tell me about these trivial things your wife complains about. Could she have built up resentments of her own that are stifling her attraction to you?

I'm going to recommend you - hopefully both of you - read the book _His Needs, Her Needs_ by Willard Harley. It's entirely possible that the two of you aren't meeting each other's needs, rather than simply that she's not meeting yours.


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## hubbydude

Rowan said:


> So, tell me about these trivial things your wife complains about. Could she have built up resentments of her own that are stifling her attraction to you?
> 
> I'm going to recommend you - hopefully both of you - read the book _His Needs, Her Needs_ by Willard Harley. It's entirely possible that the two of you aren't meeting each other's needs, rather than simply that she's not meeting yours.


Thanks, I'll take a look at that book 

By "trivial" things I simply mean the kinds of things that people might complain about in a normal, healthy marriage. That I tidy things away and then she can't find them. Or that I have a habit of putting on the washing machine but forgetting to take the wet clothes out.


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## Blondilocks

Have you considered marriage counseling? She may not think it is necessary but you need to assure her that it is.


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## treyvion

hubbydude said:


> Apologies if this ends up in a rant.....
> 
> My wife and I have been married for twelve years and I consider myself a good husband. I work hard to provide for my family, I keep myself in shape, I do my share of housework (in fact, I'm the tidy one), I support my wife's choices in her career and personal life even though it often puts an additional burden on me. I've never cheated, never fallen out with her friends or family. In short, outside of the trivial day-to-day reasons my wife has to complain about me, I've never been anything other than an ideal husband.
> 
> I've come to realize that I've spent the past ten years trying everything to keep some semblance of affection in our marriage but without success. I use the word "affection" intentionally so that you don't think it's all about sex (which IS a big part of it, but that's not all that's missing). I've tried being attentive and loving, romantic, assertive, I've tried playing it cool, I've tried being exciting and adventurous, I've tried ignoring her, I've tried pestering her, I've tried talking to her, I've tried getting into the best physical shape of my life, I've tried EVERYTHING, and every approach meets with rejection. Even when it's not full-out rejection, it's the tacit rejection of knowing that she's only giving me the time of day out of an apparent sense of obligation, and that within a day or two she'll have considered her obligation met and we'll be back to square one. I'm quite sure that if I told my wife that there was no need for us to ever have sex again and that it wouldn't be a problem for me, she'd be quite content with that. I however can't live with that, and I'm starting to resent her for putting me in a position where my only apparent choices are infidelity, divorce, or the prospect of never experiencing the joy, fun and excitement of a healthy sexual relationship ever again.
> 
> What do I do? "Talk to her, let her know how you feel" is what most people will say. But it will come as no surprise to her to hear how I feel. She knows how I feel but she chooses to ignore it. Seemingly, she would rather avoid the discomfort of recognizing that our marriage is in an unhealthy state than put in the effort to address my feelings of rejection, resentment and inadequacy and try to keep our marriage alive.
> 
> I feel like I've swam an ocean to drag our drowning marriage ashore, and now that it needs the kiss of life she continues to watch from the sidelines while I struggle to catch my own breath. I resent her for it, and that makes me very, very sad.
> 
> I love my wife. I don't want to resent her. What can I do?


Like Whoopy Goldberg's character told "Harpo" on color Purple... "Cheat on her". She said "beat her" in the movie.

Being cheated on and forced to see her man in a sexual light which is being maintained by an outside party, tips the scales. She will usually decide she doesn't want to lose her man. Plus she is forced to look at him in a sexual light, because he is sexualized, just not with her.


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## Blondilocks

treyvion said:


> Like Whoopy Goldberg's character told "Harpo" on color Purple... "Cheat on her". She said "beat her" in the movie.
> 
> Being cheated on and forced to see her man in a sexual light which is being maintained by an outside party, tips the scales. She will usually decide she doesn't want to lose her man. Plus she is forced to look at him in a sexual light, because he is sexualized, just not with her.


Are you advocating the OP cheat on his wife? Want to make sure I read your post correctly before getting my feathers ruffled.


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## Faithful Wife

hubbydude...when you talk to her about these issues, what does she say?


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## Minncouple

Not alot of advice for you, but a bit of a shoulder to cry on.

I am in the exact same situation. Tried reading books, counsueling, being nice, being mean, being silent, being talkative, meeting her needs, not meeting her needs. Everything but leave divorce papers on the kitchen table, and no change.

I guess I resent her lack of affection somewhat, and also her lack of even trying or acknowledging the problem.

It has gotten to the point where I am so skeptical that anything will change, I have lost the will/desire to even try more approaches.

Wish I could help, but have no real advice for you.

Now, by affection, I dont just mean sex, I mean a hug, kiss, text or email, even a phone call during the day, nada....

I feel like I do everything for her, yet she does little if anything for me.

Srry for the rant, just letting you know your not the only one out there like this.


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## richie33

You are not alone. No one should have to beg for a hug or kiss from their spouse. Even if she has some hidden resentment for you....what's more important the marriage or her issues with you? Marriage should come first.


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## Blondilocks

When all else fails, initiate the 180. After you've gotten your ducks in a row, then leave the divorce papers on the kitchen table.


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## treyvion

Blondilocks said:


> Are you advocating the OP cheat on his wife? Want to make sure I read your post correctly before getting my feathers ruffled.


I was just saying "cheating" is always an option, and if this was the "single" world, it has a response if the person even has a glimmering of internal interest buried down in there.

Waiting around and providing high output and high quality attention does not work in these situations.


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## treyvion

Minncouple said:


> Not alot of advice for you, but a bit of a shoulder to cry on.
> 
> I am in the exact same situation. Tried reading books, counsueling, being nice, being mean, being silent, being talkative, meeting her needs, not meeting her needs. Everything but leave divorce papers on the kitchen table, and no change.
> 
> I guess I resent her lack of affection somewhat, and also her lack of even trying or acknowledging the problem.
> 
> It has gotten to the point where I am so skeptical that anything will change, I have lost the will/desire to even try more approaches.
> 
> Wish I could help, but have no real advice for you.
> 
> Now, by affection, I dont just mean sex, I mean a hug, kiss, text or email, even a phone call during the day, nada....
> 
> I feel like I do everything for her, yet she does little if anything for me.
> 
> Srry for the rant, just letting you know your not the only one out there like this.


We all have been to this point you describe. You start to feel terrible for the assistance you do provide, because you know it generally is not reciprocated and it dooms you to a life of the same results. No sex and no affection.

When someone is cheated on, they discover REAL QUICK if they wanted the person or not. So it will generate huge emotions quickly, OR the person will be ok to allow it or to allow you to move on.


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## ReidWright

in the early days, were you the one always initiating kisses, hugs, holding hands? maybe you didn't realize that was her nature because of the honeymoon phase.


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## Blondilocks

Cheating should never be considered as an option to end the status quo. 

Would you want to become involved with someone who chose cheating as a way to get a reaction? How terribly immature and selfish. It would come back to haunt the cheater in many ways. Better to separate or divorce than cheat your way out.


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## MSP

I can't believe an established TAM poster is advocating cheating as a potential way of fixing a relationship.


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## treyvion

Blondilocks said:


> Cheating should never be considered as an option to end the status quo.
> 
> Would you want to become involved with someone who chose cheating as a way to get a reaction? How terribly immature and selfish. It would come back to haunt the cheater in many ways. Better to separate or divorce than cheat your way out.


Ok, well seperate and then get your needs met externally. She needs to know that you can do it and that it's important to you. You cannot verbally explain it to them. They have to see for themself.


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## Miss Independent

treyvion said:


> Ok, well seperate and then get your needs met externally. She needs to know that you can do it and that it's important to you. You cannot verbally explain it to them. They have to see for themself.



Do you mean that his wife would want sex with him after he has slept with another woman?


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## Faithful Wife

You just don't know treyvion, then.


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## Miss Independent

Faithful Wife said:


> You just don't know treyvion, then.



What do you mean?


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## LongWalk

Treyvion has committed a grave infraction of the TAM rule, haha. We must push him out now. Come on, TAM can be against cheating but can't one OP give it a go?

OK, suppose OP doesn't actually cheat, but creates the illusion of having a lover? How about finding some beauty and posing for a smiling selfie photo with an arm around her waist and then post it on FB. While under relationship change status to "it's complicated".

Someone must have done it to give a cold fish spouse a jolt.

Request in house separation with dating outside of the home. While doing this, go 180. If the wife suddenly becomes interested in competing, you could attempt reconciliation. But she did not care, well, that would just be confirmation that it was time to go.


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## SimplyAmorous

Rowan said:


> So, tell me about these trivial things your wife complains about. *Could she have built up resentments of her own that are stifling her attraction to you?*
> 
> I'm going to recommend you - hopefully both of you - read the book _His Needs, Her Needs_ by Willard Harley. It's entirely possible that the two of you aren't meeting each other's needs, rather than simply that she's not meeting yours.


Please do explore the Resentment aspect on her end.. if she has buried resentment towards you (could be over anything & she allowed it to fester)... this needs unearthed and dealt with or nothing will change, she will remain emotionally / affectionately out of reach...with your resentment growing out of control...and the desire to look over that fence...it's just not a healthy place to be...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...l-etc-how-robs-us-intimacy-we-crave-most.html

Then the Love Languages... have you been missing each other for years.. this can easily cause misunderstandings and hurt...maybe you have *TOUCH* at your top..and she has it at her bottom.. so her need is scant, while she may have "*Acts of service*" at her top and want more from your end.. possible? (just as an example)... all of this explained here.. plus the 10 emotional needs in His Needs/Her Needs.. laid out....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-languages-how-does-affect-your-marraige.html

Then the sex drive aspect of this.. many women just do not FEEL the antsy cravings that men have.. it's the divide of the sexes..

I think in the name of true transparency..if a spouse is feeling desperate enough to FALL INTO TEMPTATION after umteen times talking to a cold fish spouse, then Yeah.. speak it.. this woman needs to understand the gravity of the situation... what does she need.. a brick !....

I just don't have a lot of sympathy for rejecting spouses.. I'd leave a marriage over it.. because I would be tempted to get my needs filled else where...that is just being honest to the core...

But in bringing this sort of honestly, be open and willing to hear her gripes as well.. deeply listen to each other.. if this can't be achieved, this sort of vulnerable opening up (which seems very common with resentment laden relationships), a marriage counselor may be able to get that ball rolling ....to see what can be salvaged ...if you are both willing to come closer to each other, care and please each other...because the marriage is worth this fight..


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## MSP

Maybe you're too nice.

What do you do for a job? What's your wife do? Who earns more?


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## hubbydude

Faithful Wife said:


> hubbydude...when you talk to her about these issues, what does she say?


She says (half jokingly, half seriously) that she wouldn't blame me if I had an affair. She doesn't mean it of course, but it's like she acknowledges the issue but isn't willing to do anything about it. She chooses avoidance over effort.

I'd also think that if there were any deep rooted resentment issues or her end that she would bring them up on the (increasingly rare) occasions we talk about our lack of intimacy and affection.

She also says that I should be more forceful / assertive at times and just whisk her away. But that just seems like her way of relying on me to make it better. It takes two to make a happy marriage.


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## hubbydude

MSP said:


> Maybe you're too nice.
> 
> What do you do for a job? What's your wife do? Who earns more?


I wonder this myself at times. I'm the bread winner (decent management job), she does part time home daycare. She's very smart and very capable and worked hard to earn herself a University degree, but she has subsequently made life and career decisions that now makes her financially dependent on me. I've been supportive throughout and she seems quite comfortable with our current life arrangements. I'm increasingly not.


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## hubbydude

Minncouple said:


> Not alot of advice for you, but a bit of a shoulder to cry on.
> 
> I am in the exact same situation. Tried reading books, counsueling, being nice, being mean, being silent, being talkative, meeting her needs, not meeting her needs. Everything but leave divorce papers on the kitchen table, and no change.
> 
> I guess I resent her lack of affection somewhat, and also her lack of even trying or acknowledging the problem.
> 
> It has gotten to the point where I am so skeptical that anything will change, I have lost the will/desire to even try more approaches.
> 
> Wish I could help, but have no real advice for you.
> 
> Now, by affection, I dont just mean sex, I mean a hug, kiss, text or email, even a phone call during the day, nada....
> 
> I feel like I do everything for her, yet she does little if anything for me.
> 
> Srry for the rant, just letting you know your not the only one out there like this.


I hear you!


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## 6301

My second wife was a lot like yours and for her to show any kind of affection was like pulling teeth and not just the sex but all the other things.

Naturally I complained, moaned and groaned and it fell on deaf ears and at times I got mighty pissed.

Now one day my business lawyer called me and told me about a seminar for small business' was being held at a conference room at a hotel down the road and asked if I was interested since there were people there that could help improve small business' and I said that I would go. Oh My attorney is female and my wife knows her.

Anyhow I was getting ready to go and my wife starts copping a attitude and came out and asked me what was going on with me and ________. 

I told her nothing and it was just a seminar and then I got pissed and looked at her and told her this.

"I have to beg you for any type of affection and 95% of the time I get turned down and you couldn't give a $h!t if it hurt me or not and now you have the balls to ask whats going on between me and _______! Maybe if you acted like a wife rather than a frigid, stoic non human and showed a little care once in a while, we wouldn't be having this conversation and don't ever throw something like that on me again!"

Point is I let it be known that I wasn't happy and I finally did throw her out and I hope you don't have to do the same, but if you let her know that your at the end of your rope with the way your being treated and let her know in a way that this is a serious problem and she better get her ass in gear or bigger problems are a coming, maybe she'll get your drift and wake up.


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## kag123

Is it possible that she's just not an affectionate person? She's got a low sex drive? 

I mean, honestly, I dislike being touched 90% of the time. I've always been that way. It doesn't come naturally to me to be touchy feely with anyone...not even my H. It has nothing to do with my feelings or resentment or he's done something wrong or I had a bad day. I just don't like it, and I will do it for him, but I could take it or leave it. 

I do not think I will ever change. It's a central hallmark of my being. It's kind of like telling me to stop having blue eyes or start enjoying math. Ain't gonna happen. 

I want to make him happy though. I do have to literally remind myself to do things that come naturally to other people. Such as "don't forget to kiss him goodbye", "make sure you sit next to him on the couch not on the other chair", etc. I have to recite these things to myself mentally. It does not come to me of my own volition. The only time I do like to be touched is in bed when we are going to sleep. Even then, my preferred position is that he has his back to me so that there are no arms or legs wrapped around me, and I sleep with my head resting on his shoulders and my arms wrapped around him. But I am touching him not him touching me. 

My point is that I feel like its a no win situation when she is trying to be more affectionate for your benefit, but then you are not happy because she's forcing it. If she lives her life naturally you are not happy because shes not affectionate at all. 
So what can she realistically do to make the situation better for you?

This is that age old conundrum - I want her to WANT to do it.

I have never seen that work.


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## Voltaire2013

treyvion said:


> i was just saying "cheating" is always an option, and if this was the "single" world, it has a response if the person even has a glimmering of internal interest buried down in there.
> 
> Waiting around and providing high output and high quality attention does not work in these situations.


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## SoVeryLost

She does part-time home daycare? How many days/week or hours/week? I have a very deep appreciation for stay-at-home moms, daycare providers, teachers, etc., because although I absolutely love being a mother, my gosh I couldn't stay home with my little boy every single day. By the time the weekend is over I'm exhausted...and that's with just having him. Maybe she's drained from providing daycare all day. I can easily see that as a valid issue. Does she have weekends free? Do you notice a difference in her when she's had some time off? How about vacations...does she initiate under that kind of circumstance or show more affection?


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## SoVeryLost

Oh, and unless I missed it; which is entirely plausible...do you have any kids together? If so, how many/their ages?


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## Thound

kag123 said:


> Is it possible that she's just not an affectionate person? She's got a low sex drive?
> 
> I mean, honestly, I dislike being touched 90% of the time. I've always been that way. It doesn't come naturally to me to be touchy feely with anyone...not even my H. It has nothing to do with my feelings or resentment or he's done something wrong or I had a bad day. I just don't like it, and I will do it for him, but I could take it or leave it.
> 
> I do not think I will ever change. It's a central hallmark of my being. It's kind of like telling me to stop having blue eyes or start enjoying math. Ain't gonna happen.
> 
> I want to make him happy though. I do have to literally remind myself to do things that come naturally to other people. Such as "don't forget to kiss him goodbye", "make sure you sit next to him on the couch not on the other chair", etc. I have to recite these things to myself mentally. It does not come to me of my own volition. The only time I do like to be touched is in bed when we are going to sleep. Even then, my preferred position is that he has his back to me so that there are no arms or legs wrapped around me, and I sleep with my head resting on his shoulders and my arms wrapped around him. But I am touching him not him touching me.
> 
> My point is that I feel like its a no win situation when she is trying to be more affectionate for your benefit, but then you are not happy because she's forcing it. If she lives her life naturally you are not happy because shes not affectionate at all.
> So what can she realistically do to make the situation better for you?
> 
> This is that age old conundrum - I want her to WANT to do it.
> 
> I have never seen that work.


I have to ask, were you touchy feely when y'all were dating? Did you have passionate sex when y'all were dating?


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## Thound

OP I know exactly how you feel. I'm sitting here waiting on the grim reaper myself.


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## Voltaire2013

Brother,

Been there, done that, got the T shirt. Let me say this. 

STOP IT NOW! STOP BEING A VICTIM!

I came here with mostly the same complaints, but by accident. The more I read, the more I realized I am just as much to blame. I know you think you have tried it all, but you haven't, you've barely scratched the surface. Have you read the MMSLP? 
The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: 9781460981733: Amazon.com: Books
Also, His Needs, Her Needs? 
His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage: Willard F. Jr. Harley: 9780800744236: Amazon.com: Books

How about what a co dependent b1tch you are? (I say this with Love as I am recovering from this as well)
https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

Read these, especially NMMNG & MMSLP. I know you think you have tried these scenarios, but try them in the new light these books offer you. As a Manager I'm sure you are familiar with 'The One Minute Manager' & 'Who Moved my Cheese?' Think of these as extensions of the that line of thinking. But for your relationship with your wife. You can't make her change, but you can change, as you already have in the relationship. More than likely she will change in reaction to your changes. 

I came here bitter and sexless for 2 painful years. I read as a victim at first and then realized only I could change me and the way I deal with people and conflict in general. It made alot of my life less stressful. 

I'm slowly fixing things. No more Victim Chair, no more crippling resentments. It takes time and effort but your marriage is worth it. Lead by example. My Wife complained that when I would say I would be home 'shortly' (ahem, at the bar) and came home 2 hours later, she lost respect for me, I did not keep my word. I was astonished that something so inconsequential to me could be so important to her. So i listened. 

Also, during this sexless period, after the birth of our boys, she was reading the dreaded '50 Shades' books. And here I was sexless. It enraged me she was so engrossed with them but we were not having sex. Not having read them but having a team of women working for me I knew what they were all about, but all she could tell me when I asked what she liked was 'I like the Vanilla'. 

She lied. I drank. It was making the divide bigger. 

One nite I decided I would try some of the 50 Shades things, if she didn't like it, she could tell me as i tried. I didn't ask before hand, I just did. Turns out she liked spankings, (too afraid to admit) and dirty talk, and knots that took too long to learn on Youtube (2Knottyboys, if you must). I became more Alpha, and DID instead of talking. This progressed to other areas of out relationship as well. We get along better now then we ever have. 

Sure we have had plenty of awkward conversations, but they are at least honest now, and she knows that I will not tolerate certain things, just as I know know she will not longer tolerate others. It's a Marriage made of compromises, not convenience. We are in a much better place lately. Last nite she was my Stripper, Anon Pink would be proud. 

I say this not to brag, but to let you know there is a solution, it takes work and talking. The biggest thing is your actions, follow trough, be a man. It can be better, you can make it so. 

Read more here, pay attention to Machiavelli and Conrad (now banned but he left a ton of knowledge in other posts) and Mavish as well. There are plenty of others here to help. Who have been in the same position. This place is great for reading both failures and successes. Learn. Live. Love, starting with you. 

I wish you luck. 

Cheers,
V(13)

PS, The Hitachi Wand will make her melt like Jelly, FYI. 







kag123 said:


> Is it possible that she's just not an affectionate person? She's got a low sex drive?
> 
> I mean, honestly, I dislike being touched 90% of the time. I've always been that way. It doesn't come naturally to me to be touchy feely with anyone...not even my H. It has nothing to do with my feelings or resentment or he's done something wrong or I had a bad day. I just don't like it, and I will do it for him, but I could take it or leave it.
> 
> I do not think I will ever change. It's a central hallmark of my being. It's kind of like telling me to stop having blue eyes or start enjoying math. Ain't gonna happen.
> 
> I want to make him happy though. I do have to literally remind myself to do things that come naturally to other people. Such as "don't forget to kiss him goodbye", "make sure you sit next to him on the couch not on the other chair", etc. I have to recite these things to myself mentally. It does not come to me of my own volition. The only time I do like to be touched is in bed when we are going to sleep. Even then, my preferred position is that he has his back to me so that there are no arms or legs wrapped around me, and I sleep with my head resting on his shoulders and my arms wrapped around him. But I am touching him not him touching me.
> 
> My point is that I feel like its a no win situation when she is trying to be more affectionate for your benefit, but then you are not happy because she's forcing it. If she lives her life naturally you are not happy because shes not affectionate at all.
> So what can she realistically do to make the situation better for you?
> 
> This is that age old conundrum - I want her to WANT to do it.
> 
> I have never seen that work.


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## hubbydude

SoVeryLost said:


> Oh, and unless I missed it; which is entirely plausible...do you have any kids together? If so, how many/their ages?


We have two kids, aged nine and eleven. She mostly does before and after school care and occasionally has a kid to look after during the day (maybe a day or two a week). We're both off weekends.

Of course, like any other parents we would love the day to be 28 hours long so we can either have a few extra hours sleep every now and then, or some extra time to ourselves in the evening. We're often tired, and of course this likely a contributing factor, it certainly doesn't help, but I honestly don't think it can account for the complete lack of intimacy and affection.

Someone asked if she is simply not an affectionate person. This might also be a contributing factor. I've always taken more initiative than she has when it comes to intimacy and affection, but over the years it's gone from little to nothing at all. I guess my biggest fear is that she's incapable of showing any affection without me initiating it and I'm reaching a point where I'm incapable of initiating it without feeling resentful. I'm hitting the "want her to want to do it" conundrum.

I like the idea of shaking her out of her comfort zone a little by perhaps making her a little jealous (even though that makes me sound / feel like a bit of a douche). I don't mean having an affair, I couldn't, but I've been hitting the gym four days a week lately in an attempt to feel a little more attractive and masculine (I now have bumps in all the right places). Perhaps if I made a point of being more flirty and confident with other women she'd take notice.


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## Catherine602

I always worry about the relationship of someone who feels that they are an ideal husband/wife. Both parties may be excellent people but not in a way that seems so to their partner. 

Hubby If you had to guess, which of your wife's complaints have merit. Not what you think is minor but what does she think. 

The key may be to consider what is important to her. Maybe it's reasonable to discuss mutual changes maybe not. But definitely consider it. 

My concern is that you are working at perfection in areas that are not considered meritorious to her. She may not give you credit where she should or she is be ungrateful or taking you for granted. 

Either way, review all of the things you do for her. Are you over-functioning in some areas and falling down in others. Are their things you can stop doing if they are extras but only important to you? Not anything that is part of what you should do as a couple.

Are there things you can do that are important to her instead?


----------



## hubbydude

Voltaire2013 said:


> Brother,
> 
> Been there, done that, got the T shirt. Let me say this.
> 
> STOP IT NOW! STOP BEING A VICTIM!
> 
> I came here with mostly the same complaints, but by accident. The more I read, the more I realized I am just as much to blame. I know you think you have tried it all, but you haven't, you've barely scratched the surface. Have you read the MMSLP?
> The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: 9781460981733: Amazon.com: Books
> Also, His Needs, Her Needs?
> His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage: Willard F. Jr. Harley: 9780800744236: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> How about what a co dependent b1tch you are? (I say this with Love as I am recovering from this as well)
> https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf
> 
> Read these, especially NMMNG & MMSLP. I know you think you have tried these scenarios, but try them in the new light these books offer you. As a Manager I'm sure you are familiar with 'The One Minute Manager' & 'Who Moved my Cheese?' Think of these as extensions of the that line of thinking. But for your relationship with your wife. You can't make her change, but you can change, as you already have in the relationship. More than likely she will change in reaction to your changes.
> 
> I came here bitter and sexless for 2 painful years. I read as a victim at first and then realized only I could change me and the way I deal with people and conflict in general. It made alot of my life less stressful.
> 
> I'm slowly fixing things. No more Victim Chair, no more crippling resentments. It takes time and effort but your marriage is worth it. Lead by example. My Wife complained that when I would say I would be home 'shortly' (ahem, at the bar) and came home 2 hours later, she lost respect for me, I did not keep my word. I was astonished that something so inconsequential to me could be so important to her. So i listened.
> 
> Also, during this sexless period, after the birth of our boys, she was reading the dreaded '50 Shades' books. And here I was sexless. It enraged me she was so engrossed with them but we were not having sex. Not having read them but having a team of women working for me I knew what they were all about, but all she could tell me when I asked what she liked was 'I like the Vanilla'.
> 
> She lied. I drank. It was making the divide bigger.
> 
> One nite I decided I would try some of the 50 Shades things, if she didn't like it, she could tell me as i tried. I didn't ask before hand, I just did. Turns out she liked spankings, (too afraid to admit) and dirty talk, and knots that took too long to learn on Youtube (2Knottyboys, if you must). I became more Alpha, and DID instead of talking. This progressed to other areas of out relationship as well. We get along better now then we ever have.
> 
> Sure we have had plenty of awkward conversations, but they are at least honest now, and she knows that I will not tolerate certain things, just as I know know she will not longer tolerate others. It's a Marriage made of compromises, not convenience. We are in a much better place lately. Last nite she was my Stripper, Anon Pink would be proud.
> 
> I say this not to brag, but to let you know there is a solution, it takes work and talking. The biggest thing is your actions, follow trough, be a man. It can be better, you can make it so.
> 
> Read more here, pay attention to Machiavelli and Conrad (now banned but he left a ton of knowledge in other posts) and Mavish as well. There are plenty of others here to help. Who have been in the same position. This place is great for reading both failures and successes. Learn. Live. Love, starting with you.
> 
> I wish you luck.
> 
> Cheers,
> V(13)
> 
> PS, The Hitachi Wand will make her melt like Jelly, FYI.


Awesome! Thanks buddy. I'll be buying those books in the morning  I'm quite comfortable taking charge, just lacking the motivation to do so in my marriage at this point. I guess I've already started by taking charge of my physique (see previous post), but I'm completely lost on what to do next. I hope to find answers in those books.


----------



## Mostlycontent

hubbydude said:


> I like the idea of shaking her out of her comfort zone a little by perhaps making her a little jealous (even though that makes me sound / feel like a bit of a douche). I don't mean having an affair, I couldn't, but I've been hitting the gym four days a week lately in an attempt to feel a little more attractive and masculine (I now have bumps in all the right places). Perhaps if I made a point of being more flirty and confident with other women she'd take notice.


I wouldn't advocate an Affair either but I would advocate becoming less available. Go out with your buds more often or go out for drinks after work more frequently. 

In a perfect world, you wouldn't have to do that but now I think it might be a good idea that she wonders what you're up to from time to time. The biggest problem most everyone has in marriage, particularly after you've been together for double digit years, is taking your SO for granted.

Let her think you've found other people or doing other things more interesting. Make her stop and think about what she may need to do to reign you back in. In short, make her worry a bit that she may be losing you. I think that may be a good reminder for her and snap her back into treating you like you matter.

I'm a "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" kind of person so if your W isn't treating you like she cares, it's time for you to distance yourself somewhat (not a hard 180, mind you), and appear somewhat disinterested yourself. That should shake her up a bit and if it doesn't, then your next move may be a harder one.


----------



## hubbydude

Catherine602 said:


> I alway worry about the relationship of someone who feels that they are an ideal husband/wife. Both parties may be excellence people but not in a way that seems so to each other.
> 
> Hubby If you had to guess, which of yur wives complaints may have merit. Not what you think is minor but what does she think.
> 
> The key may be to consider what is important to her. Maybe it's reasonable to discuss mutual changes maybe not. But definitely consider it.
> 
> My concern is that you are working at perfection in areas that are not considered meritorious to her. She may not give you credit where she should or she is being ungrateful or taking you for granted.
> 
> Either way, review all of the things you do for her. Are you over-functioning in some areas and falling down in others. Are their things you can stop doing if they are extras but only important to you? Not anything that is part of what you should do as a couple.
> 
> Are there things you can do that are important to her instead?


Hmmm, food for thought, for sure. She would likely say that I excel in some areas and fall short in others, and I would likely agree. You have me thinking, thanks.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

hubbydude said:


> Awesome! Thanks buddy. I'll be buying those books in the morning  I'm quite comfortable taking charge, just lacking the motivation to do so in my marriage at this point. I guess I've already started by taking charge of my physique (see previous post), but I'm completely lost on what to do next. I hope to find answers in those books.


OP

Empathize strongly with you but am a little confused. Sounds like she hinted you should take charge on the sexual end, plus here you say you know how to do that. So why not just "take her" a couple times this week and see how she responds. Or have you already tried that. Just because she doesn't like to initiate doesn't mean she doesn't like sex.

Did you say the other parts of your relationship are good?


----------



## sparkyjim

hubbydude said:


> I like the idea of shaking her out of her comfort zone a little by perhaps making her a little jealous


This is a good idea...



hubbydude said:


> (even though that makes me sound / feel like a bit of a douche).


And this attitude is why it won't work for you...

My point is that as soon as she sees you act this way towards someone she will try to control you by shaming you and you will fall for it because deep down inside you "feel like a douche..."

Let's re-frame this situation.

You are not married but you want to be. I come to you with this name of a gal (your wife..) and I say that once married she won't have any affection toward you, and she won't be concerned about satisfying you sexually. How inspired would you be to want to date her? You would kind of think that she is a "douche." (By the way I don't really like that choice of words, but the OP used them so I am continuing the point)

So you have to get past this feeling that if you want to be satisfied sexually in a marriage that you are a "douche" or sexually insatiable, or any other negative connotation that is applied to someone who wants to have a sexually and emotionally fulfilling relationship with their spouse.

I too, had to check treyvions number of posts to see what troll was suggesting "cheating..." 

But unfortunately he makes a good point. Your wife is either so comfortable with the idea that she is "safe" just giving you scraps, or nothing at all, OR she just doesn't give a damn...

Now you need to decide what to do about that. The first thing you need to do is to work on that internal man who is implying to you that your needs are anything that anyone can "shame" you for.


----------



## neuklas

hubbydude said:


> She also says that I should be more forceful / assertive at times and just whisk her away. But that just seems like her way of relying on me to make it better. It takes two to make a happy marriage.


Actually, I'm pretty sure she told you exactly what to do - shut up and take her. Be a man.

What is it the Marines say? A good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.

Or if you just want to commiserate, I have a thread going in the sex in marriage forum you'll probably identify with.


----------



## hubbydude

neuklas said:


> Actually, I'm pretty sure she told you exactly what to do - shut up and take her. Be a man.


Been there, done it, but it takes two, I can't be the only one willing to take the initiative. If I try to "taker her" and she turns me down once more I'll be hitting the local bar and taking my chances. And having read just a couple of chapters of "No more Mr. Nice Guy", I'm not even feeling bad about saying so.


----------



## MedRepMom

Oh my Gosh! I am a woman in the same situation. I am embarrassed to say it but I get no affection unless I say, " do you want to have sex tonight?" It is a yes then but he never initiates and his no's are staying out in the main room watching basketball until well past my bed time. I know you all are thinking I must be fat, ugly, dirty, something has got to be wrong with me, right? Honestly, I am none of those things. He just says, "he is not sure what kind of mood I will be in so doesn't try." On major thing to point out is I have NEVER said no to sex or to any type of affection. I was told once by an older women who has been married a long time that what made it work for her is to never say no. I have followed her advice to the letter and now....I am so resentful. 

I have said stuff like "you must not be attracted to me." One time he did say, "I come home at lunch I am still in my pajamas." I know not sexy, right? But I can explain. I work from home on some days, run about 5 miles a day and don't want to get dressed until after my run so if I start work in my PJ's then the day gets away from me. I later go for my run, take a shower, get dressed, run the kids around (4 of them) and then take another shower and put on pj's, again. Is that so bad? 

I wonder if there are other women that feel like the guys do? It is an awful feeling and a feel for you all. :scratchhead:


----------



## WayUpNorth

Minncouple said:


> Not alot of advice for you, but a bit of a shoulder to cry on.
> 
> I am in the exact same situation. Tried reading books, counsueling, being nice, being mean, being silent, being talkative, meeting her needs, not meeting her needs. Everything but leave divorce papers on the kitchen table, and no change.
> 
> I guess I resent her lack of affection somewhat, and also her lack of even trying or acknowledging the problem.
> 
> It has gotten to the point where I am so skeptical that anything will change, I have lost the will/desire to even try more approaches.
> 
> Wish I could help, but have no real advice for you.
> 
> Now, by affection, I dont just mean sex, I mean a hug, kiss, text or email, even a phone call during the day, nada....
> 
> I feel like I do everything for her, yet she does little if anything for me.
> 
> Srry for the rant, just letting you know your not the only one out there like this.


This sounds like the past 4 months for me. I bust my ass hand clearing a building site for her and don't even get a 'thank you'


----------



## devotion

I was the other side of the relationship, my ex-wife wanted a lot more sexuality from me than I was willing to give. Either I didn't hear the signs, or they weren't clear enough, but yeah, she went down the whole affair (at least emotional with sexting, physical is up for debate) route and by the time I knew it was over it was too late to change it around. 

I don't advocate cheating, period -- I don't think that should ever been an option. But if it hurts you that much, then you need to decide if you are willing to leave her on it, and if so, TELL HER THAT YOU WILL. That is the part that I am still mad about - if she had TOLD me she was going to leave and I still did nothing.. then I just didn't fulfill my obligations as a husband and its 100% my fault. But instead she tried to have her cake (ie the marriage) and eat it too (ie the sex life she wanted). Not fair. 

On my own growth I've now established that a healthy sex (and affection) life is part of a healthy relationship and I am open to talking about my needs (and her needs) in this area along with any other. Right now I'm back at the more typical man-wants-more-than-girl relationship so still adjusting and figuring it out (you can see my own thread about 'public words of affection' that I miss from my GF). 

Good luck. 
tl;dr: Just be crystal clear (both in your own mind and in your communication) about what can happen if there is no change in your affection/sex life.


----------



## treyvion

hubbydude said:


> Been there, done it, but it takes two, I can't be the only one willing to take the initiative. If I try to "taker her" and she turns me down once more I'll be hitting the local bar and taking my chances. And having read just a couple of chapters of "No more Mr. Nice Guy", I'm not even feeling bad about saying so.


At the local bar you will have some odds of success and if you lower your bar you can guarantee greater success, in time you will have a much higher rate of overall success.

With the wife is no guarantee, because she's been able to give you this level of output for so long and her needs are taken care of either way.


----------



## vellocet

hubbydude said:


> I love my wife. I don't want to resent her. What can I do?


I'd ask her point blank, "So your ok with having a miserable husband and knowing he is miserable because of your neglect?"

See what she says to that for starters.


----------



## Marduk

hubbydude said:


> What do I do? "Talk to her, let her know how you feel" is what most people will say.


Do the opposite of this.

Next time you get shut down or the cold shoulder treatment, go put on some new threads, some cologne, and go out for the evening.

Even if you just go to a movie by yourself (which I've done).

Become the best you can be. Get some awesome hobbies, interests, and buddies. Be openly chatty to women.

In short, be truly happy and cool with yourself as you are. Go have an awesome life without her. Give this, say, two weeks to a month to sink in. Don't respond to "why are you doing this?" or "why are you suddenly wearing cologne?" or "why do you all of a sudden think you're so great?" Just smirk and walk away.

If she responds in a few weeks, great.

If she doesn't, sit her down, and say something concrete and simple like "Wife, you are completely turning me off. I expect any marriage that I'm part of to include love and passion and fun. That means X and Y, and it means it Z times a week."

Then walk away.

If she responds, great. Typically you'll get a 1-2 week response, then fall back to old behaviours.

If she doesn't respond or falls back, go act single.

I'm not saying to cheat, but pretend you're not married without the dating or hookups. Go out with the buddies, check out other women openly, chat, flirt, whatever. Let her see you living happily without her in the picture. Let her see that you're not emotionally dependant upon her. Let her see other women flirt and check you out.

In short, let her see that she's replaceable. Upgradable, even.

This of course is the nuclear response. If she doesn't respond in a few weeks of this, the next step is to sit her down and present two pieces of paper to her.

The first piece of paper is the beginning of a separation agreement. You get this, I get that, this is what we do with the kids. The second piece of paper is a short list of requirements for you to stay in the marriage. Not demands of her, requirements for you.

Let her pick one. Not discuss it. Not think about it. Not consider it. Choose.

This is what I should have done in marriage #1. This saved marriage #2.

Sometimes you have to risk your marriage to save your marriage (and save yourself).

No one deserves to live the life you're living.


----------



## Marduk

hubbydude said:


> Someone asked if she is simply not an affectionate person. This might also be a contributing factor. I've always taken more initiative than she has when it comes to intimacy and affection, but over the years it's gone from little to nothing at all. I guess my biggest fear is that she's incapable of showing any affection without me initiating it and I'm reaching a point where I'm incapable of initiating it without feeling resentful. I'm hitting the "want her to want to do it" conundrum.


9/10 it's because she's not attracted to you any more.

Why would you say that is?

If you put yourself in her shoes, what would be her turn offs about you?

What turned her on about you to begin with?


----------



## jb02157

I really understand where the OP is coming from. This is the same as my marriage. She does absolutely nothing in the marriage. I take care of the house, help the kids with everything, homework, driving lessons, you name it, I do all the yard work and made a very good living. She only complains that it isn't enough and does absolutely nothing to help out. She even makes the kids make their own meals!. I wish that the OP and I had divorce as an option but as I've said on numerous occasions here, men like us really don't have that as an option. I don't think either of us want to be broke and without our kids.


----------



## Marduk

jb02157 said:


> I really understand where the OP is coming from. This is the same as my marriage. She does absolutely nothing in the marriage. I take care of the house, help the kids with everything, homework, driving lessons, you name it, I do all the yard work and made a very good living. She only complains that it isn't enough and does absolutely nothing to help out. She even makes the kids make their own meals!. I wish that the OP and I had divorce as an option but as I've said on numerous occasions here, men like us really don't have that as an option. I don't think either of us want to be broke and without our kids.


If you accept this then you will always have zero power in the relationship and will have to put up with whatever crumbs you are deemed to be worthy of.

I will never be there again and yes, I would risk my marriage on it.

Here's the secret: 90% of battles are bluffs. Odds are extremely high you will inspire better behaviour... when you demand it, it's usually because you deserve it.


----------



## sammy3

spinsterdurga said:


> Do you mean that his wife would want sex with him after he has slept with another woman?


My husband has a very hard time understanding this thought!!!!:scratchhead:


----------



## Trickster

hubbydude said:


> She says (half jokingly, half seriously) that she wouldn't blame me if I had an affair. She doesn't mean it of course, but it's like she acknowledges the issue but isn't willing to do anything about it. She chooses avoidance over effort.
> 
> I'd also think that if there were any deep rooted resentment issues or her end that she would bring them up on the (increasingly rare) occasions we talk about our lack of intimacy and affection.
> 
> She also says that I should be more forceful / assertive at times and just whisk her away. But that just seems like her way of relying on me to make it better. It takes two to make a happy marriage.


I got to page 4 and came back to this post. This is exactly what my wife said. She realized she had no sex drive and said she would understand if I had an affair.

She was always reseptive to my affection, as long as it didn't lead to sex. Like you, it was the affection I wanted. My wife wanted to be the recipient. Initiating affection was never on her mind.

I can't believe some long term Tammers suggested cheating...however, they may be right.

I tried everything to improve sex and nothing worked until our stupid open marriage contract.. Yes, I think it was stupid that I had to go to that length to get some reaction from my wife... She was bluffing the whole time. Even with our open marriage contract. She played along, think that I wouldn't do anything.

My story is very long any very insane. No need to read it. Bottom line is that when an other women showed interest in me and I no longer really cared if we stayed married or not, my wife is all of a sudden became all romantic....

I was no longer trying to "trick" my wife to give me the affection and "sex" that I wanted. I was done.


I didn't have any physical relationship, however I talk to women and flirt. I am way more confident than ever before. Maybe my wife is responding to that.

Do the 180 like some have said. Work on improving yourself in all ways possible. Develop friendships with women. Flirt if you feel like it.

I was ready to walk away and D. 

Today, my wife is affectionate and we are still having sex. I don't know if she does so out of fear I will leave or she loves me. She acts like all is perfect. I continue to talk about other women as if my wife is a buddy of mine. It really is strange.

For now, I will continue to have female friends, have occasional lunch dates, and flirt when I want to.

I am just practicing being single. It still may happen and I am no longer afraid.


----------



## FormerSelf

I don't want to completely disavow low drive in some people...but it is my opinion that most women are *extremely sexual*, and if they shut it down, then it means that their husband isn't doing the right things to get them fired up.

The OP already mentioned that the wife is hoping that he would be more assertive and aggressive...and I can almost guarantee that is why she is holding out. It sounds like she has already communicated to you in her way of what she needs.

At the same time, if you try to check off all of HER boxes, then you are playing her game, with her rules, on her gameboard...and it won't be authentic, she'll know it, and you'll still not have any sex. I would check out those resources that others have suggested...also look up Calle Zorro materials. It will be an eye opener.


----------



## EleGirl

hubbydude said:


> Of course, like any other parents we would love the day to be 28 hours long so we can either have a few extra hours sleep every now and then, or some extra time to ourselves in the evening. We're often tired, and of course this likely a contributing factor, it certainly doesn't help, but I honestly don't think it can account for the complete lack of intimacy and affection.


How many hours a week do you and your wife spend together, just the two of you, doing things that you both enjoy?

When you do spend time together like this, what kinds of things do you do together?


----------



## Trickster

FormerSelf said:


> I don't want to completely disavow low drive in some people...but it is my opinion that most women are *extremely sexual*, and if they shut it down, then it means that their husband isn't doing the right things to get them fired up.
> 
> *Yes, it seems like it's the husband who has to be the romantic one, set the mood, jump through all the hoops, seduce, lots of foreplay.......
> 
> The OP has done lots of that. I Assume...and many times his wife isn't in the mood. Then the resentments set in....
> 
> Why can't the wife be the one to get the wife "fired up"?*
> 
> 
> The OP already mentioned that the wife is hoping that he would be More assertive and aggressive...and I can almost guarantee that is why she is holding out. It sounds like she has already communicated to you in her way of what she needs.
> 
> *Everybody wants an aggressive partner... I know I do.... The OP doesn't want to ALWAYS be the initiator. His wife does reject him sometimes...*
> 
> At the same time, if you try to check off all of HER boxes, then you are playing her game, with her rules, on her gameboard...and it won't be authentic, she'll know it, and you'll still not have any sex. I would check out those resources that others have suggested...also look up Calle Zorro materials. It will be an eye opener.
> 
> *Some of us me are too needy and we do way too much to get the affection we desire... It never works...We can jump through all the hoops and romance may be the last thing on her mind....
> 
> I think the OP would be extatic if if wife came to bed naked... That's all it takes for most of us men. It's easy to get us men " fired up". We just don't understand why it takes so much effort to get our wife in the mood...The OP just wants the rules of the game...*


----------



## tommyr

I've been right there too, and here is how I fixed my sexless marriage. It's actually a lot like Trickster's advice but I call it *The Talk* because I didn't actually draw up any contracts/papers like Trickster did.

The two main concepts of *The Talk* were:
1) Both me and wife each have needs. Regarding sex, that was one need that I had but she didn't. And yet she most certainly had plenty of (non sexual) needs in the marriage and I had been foolishly meeting HER needs while allowing her to ignore MY sexual needs. I told her directly that I was no longer willing to do that, our marriage is about to fundamentally change and she must choose either to join me in a marriage where both partners (willingly, lovingly) meet each other's needs, or we live as mostly self-sufficient roommates.

2) Sexually speaking, I would no longer be celibate. Again she had a decision to make:
a) we could resume a marriage of intimacy and sexual activity (2X per week)
b) we stay married and I start discretely dating women
c) we end the marriage and her VERY comfortable lifestyle gets split in half (including her time with our kids)

I am happy to say that this was all 8 years ago and during that time we have pretty much averaged sex 2X per week. I am happily keeping my end of the deal by meeting her needs too. She still has about zero sex drive, but my wife loves me and has sex with me because that is my need. I reciprocate with her needs.


----------



## john117

MSP said:


> I can't believe an established TAM poster is advocating cheating as a potential way of fixing a relationship.



I wouldn't have believed it myself a year ago. I would not be lying if I said I have changed my mind.

I have done my share of Jedi tricks, Vulcan Mind Melds, 180's, marital warfare, and everything else. You can't get affection from a sofa. 

The big problem with the PA solution is if you're in an alimony or lots of child support state....


----------



## FormerSelf

tommyr said:


> 2) Sexually speaking, I would no longer be celibate. Again she had a decision to make:
> a) we could resume a marriage of intimacy and sexual activity (2X per week)
> b) we stay married and I start discretely dating women
> c) we end the marriage and her VERY comfortable lifestyle gets split in half (including her time with our kids)


Interesting approach there...pretty gutsy. I'm glad it worked ofr you though. I think if I mentioned (b), she would tell me to shove it!


----------



## john117

kag123 said:


> I mean, honestly, I dislike being touched 90% of the time. I've always been that way. It doesn't come naturally to me to be touchy feely with anyone...not even my H. It has nothing to do with my feelings or resentment or he's done something wrong or I had a bad day. I just don't like it, and I will do it for him, but I could take it or leave it.
> 
> I do not think I will ever change. It's a central hallmark of my being. It's kind of like telling me to stop having blue eyes or start enjoying math. Ain't gonna happen.


for a moment I thought my wife posted this except she has brown eyes and loves math 

Kag, there's a minimum SLA involved when two people get married. Touching and affection are parts of those SLA's...

(SLA is service level agreement)


----------



## EleGirl

Trickster said:


> Yes, it seems like it's the husband who has to be the romantic one, set the mood, jump through all the hoops, seduce, lots of foreplay.......
> 
> The OP has done lots of that. I Assume...and many times his wife isn't in the mood. Then the resentments set in....
> 
> Why can't the wife be the one to get the wife "fired up"?


His wife is not here to speak for herself so we don’t know what she has done. Maybe she has tried things to be romantic and he did not respond to them.
Sure the OP has done lots of things. One thing I noticed in his posts is that he talks about things like doing his share of housework. Not once does he mention anything that he actually does with his wife. Do they spend any time together? Do they date? Do they do things without the children, just the two of them? From what he wrote, it sounds like they are too busy to do what is needed to keep the passion in a marriage. IT’s very common for couples with this type of problem to forget that they need to put their relationship above everything.

Now he is not 100% responsible for doing the things that maintain a connection and passion. But he is 50% responsible at least. Do you know if she has asked him to do things and he doesn’t? No you don’t. The OP has not been back to the form for 9 days. I think he’s gone. So we cannot find out more about what is going on. So let’s not just jump to conclusions that he’s a perfect husband and she’s a cold b!tch.


----------



## turnera

hubbydude said:


> She also says that I should be more forceful / assertive at times and just whisk her away.


hubby, PLEASE pay attention to this. This is KEY in what most women want. She WANTS you to be A MAN. Can you?


----------



## turnera

hubbydude said:


> Been there, done it, but it takes two, I can't be the only one willing to take the initiative. If I try to "taker her" and *she turns me down once more I'll be hitting the local bar and taking my chances.* And having read just a couple of chapters of "No more Mr. Nice Guy", I'm not even feeling bad about saying so.


Are you serious?


----------



## Catherine602

I don't know why men think that threatening to cheat will entice their wives to have sex. It's could not be more weak, disrespectful, sexually unattractive. 

If your wife is so easily replaceable with a random vj, why do you stay? Have the balls to D. Don't stay around insulting her. Who would want to have sex under those circumstances? 

Any woman who has an once of self-respect should dump a man who tells her she worth no more that a random fvck. She should definitely not have sex with him and call his bluff. He is telling her that she is nothing more than a convenient vj. He is not worth 3 min it would take to service him.


----------



## john117

When everything else has been tried and failed, we are open to suggestions...

Marital voodoo dolls maybe?


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> When everything else has been tried and failed, we are open to suggestions...
> 
> Marital voodoo dolls maybe?


This needs to be taken on a case by case basis. If indeed everything has been tried, the forget the voodoo dolls. Get a divorce.

However we don't know if the OP has actually tried everything. His wife told him one thing that would make a different to her and he thinks it's not worth his effort. So I don't think he's tried everything.

One think here on TAM is that a very important bit of info is missing. The other spouse is not here to give us the rest of the story. So without here talking about her side of things, it's very hard to know what the problem is. The best we can do it to give him ideas that he can try and/or talk with her about.

The OP has left the building. We will never know.


----------



## tommyr

Catherine602 said:


> I don't know why men think that telling a wife that they will cheat will entice them to have sex. It's the most weak, disrespectful, sexually unattractive thing you can say.


You clearly do not understand the mindset of the sexless wife. She is in a fog, clueless to reality. Normal logic does not apply to these women. She thinks everything is perfectly fine, if only H would shut up about sex. He should just go along in a normal happy family, 3 months without sex, meanwhile he should meet all of HER needs, should never complain or talk about their sexless marriage, and should never even think of cheating.

As a man who has been in this situation, I feel qualified to answer your question. I certainly told my wife I would cheat, not as an enticement for sex, but *because it was true*: I was on the fast path to cheating, and I thought it was better for her to know that BEFORE rather than AFTER. 

Does this make sense? I was desperate, confused, and to be honest I was completely *done* with sexless marriage and so our Talk needed to reflect the seriousness of the situation. All prior attempts to get through with softer approaches had failed. Wish it hadn't come to that point, but my wife needed to see my tail lights in the driveway before the fog lifted and she could see I really was fighting for our marriage (ironically, fighting with her).


----------



## tommyr

john117 said:


> When everything else has been tried and failed, we are open to suggestions...
> 
> Marital voodoo dolls maybe?


Have *The Talk* with her. Reread my previous post here.


----------



## alphaomega

Catherine602 said:


> I don't know why men think that telling a wife that they will cheat will entice them to have sex. It's the most weak, disrespectful, sexually unattractive thing you can say.
> 
> If your wife is so easily replaceable with a random vj, why do you stay? Have the balls to D. Don't stay around insulting her. Who would want to have sex under those circumstances?
> 
> Any woman who has an once of self-respect should dump a man who tells her she worth no more that a random fvck. She should definitely not have sex with him and call his bluff. He is telling her that she is nothing more than a convenient vj. He is not worth 3 min it would take to service him.


I don't know why telling your husband that your just not that interested in sex with him any more will entice him into being a joyous, happy family man that's content with just paying bills, cutting the grass, taking out the garbage, and spending every single day never expecting a hug or kiss from his wife ever again - and immediate turn on his "monk" side of his brain and turn off his sexual side.

I mean, if she just wanted a random wallet she should just divorce him already, instead of playing the "it's all ever about me card". 

Any man worth his self respect should call her bluff and dump her cold, b/tchy ass.


----------



## alphaomega

Lol. That was meant as sarcasm....but actually makes perfect sense. 

He should just dump her sorry "ass" and find someone who's not a selfish beotch.


----------



## EleGirl

alphaomega said:


> Lol. That was meant as sarcasm....but actually makes perfect sense.
> 
> He should just dump her sorry "ass" and find someone who's not a selfish beotch.


Of course you know everything that has gone on in this marriage so you know for sure that she's a "selfish beotch". You know that he has not done anything that would have pushed her away to this extent.


----------



## Miss Independent

john117 said:


> When everything else has been tried and failed, we are open to suggestions...
> 
> Marital voodoo dolls maybe?



Divorce maybe?


----------



## Marduk

Catherine602 said:


> I don't know why men think that telling a wife that they will cheat will entice them to have sex. It's the most weak, disrespectful, sexually unattractive thing you can say.
> 
> If your wife is so easily replaceable with a random vj, why do you stay? Have the balls to D. Don't stay around insulting her. Who would want to have sex under those circumstances?
> 
> Any woman who has an once of self-respect should dump a man who tells her she worth no more that a random fvck. She should definitely not have sex with him and call his bluff. He is telling her that she is nothing more than a convenient vj. He is not worth 3 min it would take to service him.


My experience does not align with your words.

I've never threatened to cheat. But I've certainly made it plainly obvious that I COULD cheat, and that I would repeatedly put myself in the position where I MIGHT be tempted and could.

Sure woke my wife up.

But actions speak much, much louder than words. Watch what happens if the next time he gets turned down by his wife he's out with the boys 10 minutes later. At a pub, at the gym, anywhere where other women might be.


----------



## tulsy

hubbydude said:


> Apologies if this ends up in a rant.....
> 
> My wife and I have been married for twelve years and I consider myself a good husband. I work hard to provide for my family, I keep myself in shape, I do my share of housework (in fact, I'm the tidy one), I support my wife's choices in her career and personal life even though it often puts an additional burden on me. I've never cheated, never fallen out with her friends or family. In short, outside of the trivial day-to-day reasons my wife has to complain about me, I've never been anything other than an ideal husband.
> 
> I've come to realize that I've spent the past ten years trying everything to keep some semblance of affection in our marriage but without success. I use the word "affection" intentionally so that you don't think it's all about sex (which IS a big part of it, but that's not all that's missing). I've tried being attentive and loving, romantic, assertive, I've tried playing it cool, I've tried being exciting and adventurous, I've tried ignoring her, I've tried pestering her, I've tried talking to her, I've tried getting into the best physical shape of my life, I've tried EVERYTHING, and every approach meets with rejection. Even when it's not full-out rejection, it's the tacit rejection of knowing that she's only giving me the time of day out of an apparent sense of obligation, and that within a day or two she'll have considered her obligation met and we'll be back to square one. I'm quite sure that if I told my wife that there was no need for us to ever have sex again and that it wouldn't be a problem for me, she'd be quite content with that. I however can't live with that, and I'm starting to resent her for putting me in a position where my only apparent choices are infidelity, divorce, or the prospect of never experiencing the joy, fun and excitement of a healthy sexual relationship ever again.
> 
> What do I do? "Talk to her, let her know how you feel" is what most people will say. But it will come as no surprise to her to hear how I feel. She knows how I feel but she chooses to ignore it. Seemingly, she would rather avoid the discomfort of recognizing that our marriage is in an unhealthy state than put in the effort to address my feelings of rejection, resentment and inadequacy and try to keep our marriage alive.
> 
> I feel like I've swam an ocean to drag our drowning marriage ashore, and now that it needs the kiss of life she continues to watch from the sidelines while I struggle to catch my own breath. I resent her for it, and that makes me very, very sad.
> 
> I love my wife. I don't want to resent her. What can I do?


FWIW, I could have written something so similar to this about 5 years ago. I spend 16 yrs with my ex-wife, 12 of them married, and I tried everything I could. I talked to everyone over the years, did MC, read so many forums and articles, I could write a book...I think many of the men here could write the same book.

It's like pushing a rope...I never got very far before the rope would just push off to the side again. To this day, she's still the same, but some other dude has to put up with it now (the 4th guy in 4 years, that I'm aware of, not that I care). The 180 worked well, and prepared me for life on my own. 

Sorry you're here. I would say pursue every possible avenue to try and save your marriage, but also know when enough is enough.


----------



## Catherine602

tommyr said:


> You clearly do not understand the mindset of the sexless wife. She is in a fog, clueless to reality. Normal logic does not apply to these women. She thinks everything is perfectly fine, if only H would shut up about sex. He should just go along in a normal happy family, 3 months without sex, meanwhile he should meet all of HER needs, should never complain or talk about their sexless marriage, and should never even think of cheating.
> 
> As a man who has been in this situation, I feel qualified to answer your question. I certainly told my wife I would cheat, not as an enticement for sex, but *because it was true*: I was on the fast path to cheating, and I thought it was better for her to know that BEFORE rather than AFTER.
> 
> Does this make sense? I was desperate, confused, and to be honest I was completely *done* with sexless marriage and so our Talk needed to reflect the seriousness of the situation. All prior attempts to get through with softer approaches had failed. Wish it hadn't come to that point, but my wife needed to see my tail lights in the driveway before the fog lifted and she could see I really was fighting for our marriage (ironically, fighting with her).


If you really felt tempted to cheat then you were right to share that with your wife. She deserves a chance to invite you to pursue your potential affair partner and leave the marriage or to work on the relationship. 

You were not threatening, you were being honest and willing to take the consequences. That is NOT what the OP said. He said he was going to a bar to replace his wife with a random woman. I stand by my statement. 

Any woman who consents to have sex with a man who says that, has zero self-respect. In my view, if her husband is that far gone he should be freed to go to bars. You can't have it two ways. 

Either sex with your wife is an emotionally special connection or its an orgasm with a vj you don't need to go to the bar and pick up. It is a completely different thing to explore how to re-eaablish an emotional connection. If it does not work, then leave. No insulting threats.


----------



## Catherine602

marduk said:


> My experience does not align with your words.
> 
> I've never threatened to cheat. But I've certainly made it plainly obvious that I COULD cheat, and that I would repeatedly put myself in the position where I MIGHT be tempted and could.
> 
> Sure woke my wife up.
> 
> But actions speak much, much louder than words. Watch what happens if the next time he gets turned down by his wife he's out with the boys 10 minutes later. At a pub, at the gym, anywhere where other women might be.


 Sex is not the answer to every thing involving women. If a wife is having problems connecting, her husbands response should be to explore why they are disconnected not looking for new vj. Trolling for random women in response to relationship problems solves nothing.


----------



## hubbydude

For the record, I've never said my wife is "cold hearted". I love her dearly, and I want to have an amazing and healthy relationship with her. I've been trying my hardest over the past twelve years to improve this aspect of our marriage. It takes an enormous amount of energy, patience and emotional investment, and I do it because I love her.

Naturally, twelve years of effort with no result hints that perhaps I'm not the source of the problem, but I'm still willing to continue looking at myself and what more I can do to make things better.

So, an update....

I'm about 75% through reading The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 (Athol Kay) and have been making a point of being more assertive and predictably masculine. My wife has noticed, and has commented that I "seem to be in a great mood" lately and that it has put her in a good mood. Progress, right?

I told her that I've decided to stop focusing on trying to make our relationship better and instead focus on making me better, with the hope that it naturally makes our relationship better. To my disappointment, she choose to reflect on the fact that I've been in a "bad mood" for the past few weeks and hinted that this caused her to reflect on our relationship (some people will read this and assume that I've always been in a bad mood and that this is the real reason my wife struggles to show me any affection, but they'd be wrong). I made it clear that I recognized that I've been like a bear with a sore head lately (resentment and frustration can affect your mood, didn't you know?) but that this is a problem that has been with us for twelve years, which she's quite aware of, and that my moodiness is a recent reflection of the fact that I'm approaching my wit's end.

If I'm going to continue improving myself and working on my end of our marriage then I expect her to do the same, and I've told her so.

We'll see what happens over the coming days and weeks. I really appreciate everyone's input.


----------



## tommyr

Catherine602 said:


> Sex is not the answer to every thing involving women. If a wife is having problems connecting, her husbands response should be to explore why they are disconnected not looking for new vj. Trolling for random women in response to relationship problems solves nothing.


Exactly how long should H respond by _exploring his wife's problem_? I myself "explored her problem" for about a year before I decided to lay it all on the line, letting her have some input into solving my forced celibacy problem (sex with her; sex with other women; divorce).

Trolling for random women does indeed solve the sexual frustration problem. Agreed it hurts the marriage, but when it's reached this point, the marriage is a sham anyway. Ever heard the term _sexual desertion_ (sometimes called _constructive desertion_)? This is grounds for At-Fault divorce in many states. I know of sham marriages like this where the random women solution actually works well for both H and W.


----------



## tommyr

hubbydude said:


> We'll see what happens over the coming days and weeks. I really appreciate everyone's input.


Sounds like you are still in the "doing research and patiently exploring" phase.
Can you clarify how often do you have some sexual contact?


----------



## Marduk

Catherine602 said:


> Sex is not the answer to every thing involving women. If a wife is having problems connecting, her husbands response should be to explore why they are disconnected not looking for new vj. Trolling for random women in response to relationship problems solves nothing.


No, but it is the answer for a heck of a lot of men.

It's a chicken and egg thing.

Limited sample size, but in two of my marriages, both wives wanted more "connection" that really meant "do a lot of what I say and I'll think about feeling connected" that became a lot of non-attraction.

Trolling for women is not the same thing as making it obvious that someone is willing to take her place.

Same goes for men; if I see my wife suddenly get in shape, dress sexy, and be "out with the girls" all the time I'm going to sit up and take notice. My response can either be do the same, or whine about it.

Trolling for hookups is not the same as getting hit on as a natural consequence of getting your act together and being awesome.

I've tried the whining route; never got me anywhere.

Not for my buddies, either.

Oh, and real quote from my wife AFTER I got in shape and we started having a lot of sex: "I'm feeling a lot closer to you and a lot better of us as a couple."

Hmm....


----------



## Marduk

hubbydude said:


> For the record, I've never said my wife is "cold hearted". I love her dearly, and I want to have an amazing and healthy relationship with her. I've been trying my hardest over the past twelve years to improve this aspect of our marriage. It takes an enormous amount of energy, patience and emotional investment, and I do it because I love her.
> 
> Naturally, twelve years of effort with no result hints that perhaps I'm not the source of the problem, but I'm still willing to continue looking at myself and what more I can do to make things better.
> 
> So, an update....
> 
> I'm about 75% through reading The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 (Athol Kay) and have been making a point of being more assertive and predictably masculine. My wife has noticed, and has commented that I "seem to be in a great mood" lately and that it has put her in a good mood. Progress, right?
> 
> I told her that I've decided to stop focusing on trying to make our relationship better and instead focus on making me better, with the hope that it naturally makes our relationship better. To my disappointment, she choose to reflect on the fact that I've been in a "bad mood" for the past few weeks and hinted that this caused her to reflect on our relationship (some people will read this and assume that I've always been in a bad mood and that this is the real reason my wife struggles to show me any affection, but they'd be wrong). I made it clear that I recognized that I've been like a bear with a sore head lately (resentment and frustration can affect your mood, didn't you know?) but that this is a problem that has been with us for twelve years, which she's quite aware of, and that my moodiness is a recent reflection of the fact that I'm approaching my wit's end.
> 
> If I'm going to continue improving myself and working on my end of our marriage then I expect her to do the same, and I've told her so.
> 
> We'll see what happens over the coming days and weeks. I really appreciate everyone's input.


100% awesome.

Hats off to you good sir.


----------



## Catherine602

hubbydude said:


> For the record, I've never said my wife is "cold hearted". I love her dearly, and I want to have an amazing and healthy relationship with her. I've been trying my hardest over the past twelve years to improve this aspect of our marriage. It takes an enormous amount of energy, patience and emotional investment, and I do it because I love her.
> 
> Naturally, twelve years of effort with no result hints that perhaps I'm not the source of the problem, but I'm still willing to continue looking at myself and what more I can do to make things better.
> 
> So, an update....
> 
> I'm about 75% through reading The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 (Athol Kay) and have been making a point of being more assertive and predictably masculine. My wife has noticed, and has commented that I "seem to be in a great mood" lately and that it has put her in a good mood. Progress, right?
> 
> I told her that I've decided to stop focusing on trying to make our relationship better and instead focus on making me better, with the hope that it naturally makes our relationship better. To my disappointment, she choose to reflect on the fact that I've been in a "bad mood" for the past few weeks and hinted that this caused her to reflect on our relationship (some people will read this and assume that I've always been in a bad mood and that this is the real reason my wife struggles to show me any affection, but they'd be wrong). I made it clear that I recognized that I've been like a bear with a sore head lately (resentment and frustration can affect your mood, didn't you know?) but that this is a problem that has been with us for twelve years, which she's quite aware of, and that my moodiness is a recent reflection of the fact that I'm approaching my wit's end.
> 
> If I'm going to continue improving myself and working on my end of our marriage then I expect her to do the same, and I've told her so.
> 
> We'll see what happens over the coming days and weeks. I really appreciate everyone's input.


So why is she so casual about how unhappy you are? First she may not understand how adversely effected you are. Secondly, she may think that you are making too much of something that is not important. You could easily control your sex drive juts like her. 

If she took you seriously, she might change and see the world through your eyes, i.e. empathy. I think you are too laid back, talk and explain too much. That dissipates the power of what you are doing. 

My suggestion is to get a plan, give it a timeline and have benchmarks along the way. Tell your wife what you are doing, just once, and then do it. If you want her to see your world, try seeing her's too. 

Approach this like a relationship problem. If she is not interested in a husband -wife relationship, that will become obvious by the lack of progress. Your wife has had decades to deflect all of your most sincere utterances about sex so don't waste your breath. She is not evil she does not understand. 

But neither of you need to understand per se, but you need to accept that gender differences are real. You have to work as hard to understand her. 

Have you read any books on married women emotional life? Try reading the book "For Men Only: A Straightforward Guide to the Inner Lives of Women" Shaunti Feldhahn, Jeff Feldhahn. There is a book for woman too.


----------



## Catherine602

alphaomega said:


> I don't know why telling your husband that your just not that interested in sex with him any more will entice him into being a joyous, happy family man that's content with just paying bills, cutting the grass, taking out the garbage, and spending every single day never expecting a hug or kiss from his wife ever again - and immediate turn on his "monk" side of his brain and turn off his sexual side.
> 
> I mean, if she just wanted a random wallet she should just divorce him already, instead of playing the "it's all ever about me card".
> 
> Any man worth his self respect should call her bluff and dump her cold, b/tchy ass.


I didn't call any names because I did not think it would add anything to my contention. But whatever inspires you.... 

A better analogy would be if the wife said "if you don't make 6 figures by next month, I'm going to find a better provider" or "if you don't become a better lover, I'm going to a bar to find men who know what they are doing". 

Would you be inspired to be more loving, put in 20 hrs more at work and read up on how to satisfy a woman?


----------



## SurpriseMyself

hubbydude said:


> If I'm going to continue improving myself and working on my end of our marriage then I expect her to do the same, and I've told her so.


Why tell her that you are working on yourself, and then add to that you expect her to do the same? That is passive-aggressive codependence at its best.

Don't expect her to do anything. Moreover, if you tell her you expect her to follow your example, she'll probably tell you to take a walk.

Now... if you change yourself for you, then you are getting somewhere. I know it's hard, but you have to stop asking for her attention. You've got to stop wanting her to act a certain way. The more you want it, the less likely you are to get it. It's a vicious cycle and one that you won't break by staying in it.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

hubbydude said:


> Been there, done it, but it takes two, I can't be the only one willing to take the initiative. If I try to "taker her" and she turns me down once more I'll be hitting the local bar and taking my chances. And having read just a couple of chapters of "No more Mr. Nice Guy", I'm not even feeling bad about saying so.


What? I just read two chapters of NMMNG and that acting out sexually and avoiding conflict are hallmarks of being a Mr. Nice Guy. What part of the book advocates avoiding an issue with your spouse and hitting the local bar instead?


----------



## turnera

hubbydude said:


> My wife has noticed, and has commented that I "seem to be in a great mood" lately and that it has put her in a good mood. Progress, right?
> 
> I told her that I've decided to stop focusing on trying to make our relationship better and instead focus on making me better
> 
> To my disappointment, she choose to reflect on the fact that I've been in a "bad mood"


There's a great little book called The Dance Of Anger that's very recommended; it's written for women, but it applies to Nice Guys, too. It talks about 'change back!' behavior - where the person who's used to Using you will resist your efforts to change. She's resisting your efforts. Focusing on what you've done wrong, to take you off your game. Ignore her. Fix yourself for YOU. You're not doing it for her, remember?


----------



## AVR1962

It is my thought here that your wife is hurt and does not feel she can accept, or wants, affection from you. Have you been a porn viewer, do you openly stare and lust after other women, have you had an emotional affair or do you have an addiction of some sort? Do you spend much of your time out with the guys or prompt in front of the TV or locked into the computer? Any of these will create distance. Have you talked to her about what she is feeling? What does she say?


----------



## AVR1962

hubbydude said:


> Been there, done it, but it takes two, I can't be the only one willing to take the initiative. If I try to "taker her" and she turns me down once more I'll be hitting the local bar and taking my chances. And having read just a couple of chapters of "No more Mr. Nice Guy", I'm not even feeling bad about saying so.


BINGO! Here is the problem......you are not committed to your wife and the relationship. you are expecting her to put out for you but you are clueless what you are doing that is hurting her. You have no idea how to meet her needs and without meeting her needs and her feeling comfortable with you and feeling she can trust you, she will distance herself. She needs to know you care about her and are interested in her for who she is as a person and not an object of affection, or a sex partner. If she feels that all you with your kisses is a lead-up to sex she will try to avoid them as she does not want to be a play toy. Your wife is a real person with real emotions and a real heart. Going out to the bars and picking up a piece tells me everything I need to know about you and I feel very sorry for your wife.


----------



## hubbydude

AVR1962 said:


> BINGO! Here is the problem......you are not committed to your wife and the relationship. you are expecting her to put out for you but you are clueless what you are doing that is hurting her. You have no idea how to meet her needs and without meeting her needs and her feeling comfortable with you and feeling she can trust you, she will distance herself. She needs to know you care about her and are interested in her for who she is as a person and not an object of affection, or a sex partner. If she feels that all you with your kisses is a lead-up to sex she will try to avoid them as she does not want to be a play toy. Your wife is a real person with real emotions and a real heart. Going out to the bars and picking up a piece tells me everything I need to know about you and I feel very sorry for your wife.


You're taking something I said in frustration (but have never done) and assuming it is representative of our relationship in general, which it is not - not even close.


----------



## hubbydude

ebp123 said:


> Why tell her that you are working on yourself, and then add to that you expect her to do the same? That is passive-aggressive codependence at its best.
> 
> Don't expect her to do anything. Moreover, if you tell her you expect her to follow your example, she'll probably tell you to take a walk.
> 
> Now... if you change yourself for you, then you are getting somewhere. I know it's hard, but you have to stop asking for her attention. You've got to stop wanting her to act a certain way. The more you want it, the less likely you are to get it. It's a vicious cycle and one that you won't break by staying in it.


Totally agree, and I don't intend to give my wife a running play-by-play of what I'm doing to improve myself and bang on at her to do the same. I've simply planted a seed which will hopefully act as a bit of a push to add to the pull of some of the changes I'm making for myself.


----------



## hubbydude

And for anyone interested, "No More Mr.Nice Guy" is a book with some helpful concepts and insights but it's really badly written. Lots of long winded anecdotes to back up points that were already well made. A "No More Mr. Nice Guy" brochure would probably be just as effective as a whole book.


----------



## Sunburn

hubbydude said:


> My wife and I have been married for twelve years and I consider myself a good husband. ........I've come to realize that I've spent the past ten years trying everything to keep some semblance of affection in our marriage but without success.


Deja vu all over again.

Affection, intimacy and sex left my X literally on the day we got married. 

3 months after we were married I finally asked her what was going on in the sex dept. Her response was, "We're together all the time now we don't have to and if we did it would indicate our marriage is only based on sex."

What?

Sure, she liked me to initiate but only in the sense that it fulfilled her ego to know that I was interested. Follow-through was discouraged. After several years of sexlessness it all made sense when one of her closest friends at a high school reunion blurted out that my wife had been President of The Virgin Club.

It wasn't just sex, it was all forms of affection and intimacy. Slowly I realized that our grandchildren (from her daughter) met her needs for affection. She thought that was all nonsense, would not go to marriage counseling, wouldn't discuss our problems in any detail nor compromise on anything. It was like she was married only for the appearance of marriage to her friends and family.

I put up with that for 8 years.

Not saying the OPs wife is the same but since she checked out so early in the marriage maybe it's not all about a lack of assertiveness or not meeting her needs.


----------



## AVR1962

[You're taking something I said in frustration (but have never done) and assuming it is representative of our relationship in general, which it is not - not even close.]

Did you clarify that in your post??


----------



## treyvion

Sunburn said:


> Deja vu all over again.
> 
> Affection, intimacy and sex left my X literally on the day we got married.
> 
> 3 months after we were married I finally asked her what was going on in the sex dept. Her response was, "We're together all the time now we don't have to and if we did it would indicate our marriage is only based on sex."


DOH! That made perfect sense to her coming out of her mouth too.



Sunburn said:


> What?
> 
> Sure, she liked me to initiate but only in the sense that it fulfilled her ego to know that I was interested. Follow-through was discouraged. After several years of sexlessness it all made sense when one of her closest friends at a high school reunion blurted out that my wife had been President of The Virgin Club.


So shut down after three months. It was probably minimal before then, or just to have a baby to nothing.



Sunburn said:


> It wasn't just sex, it was all forms of affection and intimacy. Slowly I realized that our grandchildren (from her daughter) met her needs for affection. She thought that was all nonsense, would not go to marriage counseling, wouldn't discuss our problems in any detail nor compromise on anything. It was like she was married only for the appearance of marriage to her friends and family.


So you were even starved for kisses and cuddles? I know, it doesn't even sound like a man to complain about that, but if your wife is your sole sort of intimacy and all of that is shutdown, it's going to sting quite well.



Sunburn said:


> I put up with that for 8 years.


Divorced I presume and hopefully in a much better situation.



Sunburn said:


> Not saying the OPs wife is the same but since she checked out so early in the marriage maybe it's not all about a lack of assertiveness or not meeting her needs.


Sometimes its not. Some people are simply not sexual at all. Others are gay.


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## Sunburn

tommyr said:


> I am happily keeping my end of the deal by meeting her needs too. She still has about zero sex drive, but my wife loves me and has sex with me because that is my need. I reciprocate with her needs.


I don't mean to take away from the OP's thread but I have to comment. 

My X would have turned this around and framed it as not respecting her "lack" of need.


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## Marduk

treyvion said:


> Sometimes its not. Some people are simply not sexual at all.


Could be, but in my experience the women that "just aren't sexual" sure become freaks in the sack when they are with a guy that they're attracted to... 

When they're with a guy that they don't get the tinglies for (for whatever reason) the justification that they give the guy (and maybe herself) is that she's "just not a sexual person."

Either she sticks it out with the guy and they have a boring sex life, he does something to be attractive to her and her sex drive wakes up, she cheats and goes all kinkotron on the OM, or they split and she goes crazy in the sack for Mr. Next.

Women's sexual response is highly contextual.


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## treyvion

marduk said:


> Could be, but in my experience the women that "just aren't sexual" sure become freaks in the sack when they are with a guy that they're attracted to...


Just like we want to believe this is true, we know that not all men are sexual freaks. There are asexual or non-sexual men as well as gay men. It's the same for women. Some women are prude and don't care about sex, their sexual attraction and drive is not engaged.



marduk said:


> When they're with a guy that they don't get the tinglies for (for whatever reason) the justification that they give the guy (and maybe herself) is that she's "just not a sexual person."


Now this is normal for the girl who been around the block, who got a guy outside of her friends group to help take care of her, she may not have been sexualized towards him and has these perfect reasons.



marduk said:


> Either she sticks it out with the guy and they have a boring sex life, he does something to be attractive to her and her sex drive wakes up, she cheats and goes all kinkotron on the OM, or they split and she goes crazy in the sack for Mr. Next.
> 
> Women's sexual response is highly contextual.


We can't group ALL women into a bucket. Remember, there are women as masculine or more masculine than any of us guys on this board. They do NOT want c0ck, they want p0ssy! 

But yes, there is a great many "non-sexual" female who is a sexual freak with the right guy.


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## TurtleRun

She said for you to whisk her away. Do it. I know you said well I don't want to be the one doing all the work.... 

Then don't. Whisk her away then be assertive. Tell her "ok now I have whisked you away... Now next week it is your turn to pick where we will have fun... If you want to be whisked away again by me then we will have to take turns!" ...try it out maybe and see where it takes you. You have to be a team on this! Doesn't have to be far... Or expensive. I mean sheesh a picnic in the park. Kids play while you have a romantic lunch under a tree. Write a sweet letter for her and give it to her to let her read. Something mushy like that.


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## jb02157

john117 said:


> When everything else has been tried and failed, we are open to suggestions...
> 
> Marital voodoo dolls maybe?


If you figure out how to make one of these, I'm in!


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## wilson

One thing that's important is that you have to truly understand her point of view. In your body, sex is an unstoppable urge just like getting hungry is. It doesn't depend on anything or anyone creating that urge in you. It just happens and you want to satisfy it.

Your wife is not like that. Her desire for sex may come and go. Just like you may be interested in an activity for a while and then the desire goes away. Imagine that you and her used to rollerblade when you were first dating. You both truly enjoyed it and wanted to do it. Over time, you lost interest in it but she still wants to go. She wants to go several times a week with you. Maybe if things are going really well, then you go with her to make her happy. But if you're tired, too busy, in a bad mood, you don't want to go. You have no natural urge to rollerblade, so you don't feel the need to fix your lack of rollerblading desire. Although you might go with her, you would resent your wife constantly trying to get you to become a passionate rollerblader.

So what you need to do is realize that she may not desire sex, but she may enjoy being with you while you have sex. 

-Talk to her and tell her that you cannot live without sex. Get her to agree to sex once a week. Pick a specific time (e.g. Sat night) so that you both know when it will be. This avoids you being rejected and her feeling like you're asking all the time. 

-When the day comes, try to make sure she's happy. Keep the kids happy, help around the house, etc. Make it easy for her to be in a good mood so she'll enjoy her time with you.

-When the time for sex comes, realize you are using her for your pleasure. Don't have any expectations that she'll be passionate. Don't put that pressure on her. Let her be free to experience it as she wants. Treat her lovingly, tenderly, and sensually. Really enjoy her body, but be respectful to her. That way she won't have any pressure, and likely she'll get more in the mood.

So going back to the rollerblading example, this would be like you agreeing to go rollerblading on the weekend. She treats you special on Saturday to show her appreciation--perhaps she makes your favorite breakfast. Then while rollerblading, she just has a great time and enjoys that you are with her. She doesn't make you feel bad because you don't enjoy rollerblading as much as she does. Over time, you'll come to look forward to that time together. Not because of the actual rollerblading, but because you see her happiness and know that you are part of that.

It's probably unrealistic at this point to expect her to be able to flip a switch and desire sex. For whatever reason, that desire is not there. However, she still loves you and wants to make you happy. Even if she can't meet your highest expectations, she can still satisfy some of your needs. And then over time, who knows where it will lead.


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## Marduk

treyvion said:


> Just like we want to believe this is true, we know that not all men are sexual freaks. There are asexual or non-sexual men as well as gay men. It's the same for women. Some women are prude and don't care about sex, their sexual attraction and drive is not engaged.


100% agree.

I would caution men though to consider that the women that asexual in their life may only be asexual for them. Consider the many, many stories on this forum from guys who's wives will not have sex with them at all, but are caught having wild kinky sex with the OM.


treyvion said:


> Now this is normal for the girl who been around the block, who got a guy outside of her friends group to help take care of her, she may not have been sexualized towards him and has these perfect reasons.


Don't agree with you here. 

I once dated a virgin who was "saving herself for marriage."

She didn't have sex with me, but had a ONS days after we broke up.

Why? Most likely he was more attractive to her than me. I was the nice guy that was willing to wait, he demanded immediate sex or he was gone.



treyvion said:


> We can't group ALL women into a bucket. Remember, there are women as masculine or more masculine than any of us guys on this board. They do NOT want c0ck, they want p0ssy!


And there are many women that want both. I agree that too broad brush strokes is dangerous, however general patterns do emerge...

For example, I also dated a girl that was with a guy I knew before me. She had sex with him MAYBE 1-2 times in the past year and wouldn't do anything but missionary in the dark with her not moving. She was a virgin before him.

The first night we hooked up she was a wild freak in the sack. And it was all her idea.



treyvion said:


> But yes, there is a great many "non-sexual" female who is a sexual freak with the right guy.


Yup.

If you think about it, the continuation of the species means that in general both men and women want to get it on with genetically and reproductively fit and successful partners. Repeatedly and with wild abandon.

Otherwise our species would die out.

The key (in general as you have wisely pointed out there are exceptions!) is to be that genetically and reproductively fit and successful partner.


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## treyvion

marduk said:


> 100% agree.
> 
> I would caution men though to consider that the women that asexual in their life may only be asexual for them. Consider the many, many stories on this forum from guys who's wives will not have sex with them at all, but are caught having wild kinky sex with the OM.
> 
> Don't agree with you here.
> 
> I once dated a virgin who was "saving herself for marriage."
> 
> She didn't have sex with me, but had a ONS days after we broke up.


Haha. She probably wouldn't have given it up to the guy unless you broke up with her. And end up doing it on the revenge tip and the opportunity was there. Just because a guy is more attractive does not mean he will get the sex before you. She might not trust him.



marduk said:


> Why? Most likely he was more attractive to her than me. I was the nice guy that was willing to wait, he demanded immediate sex or he was gone.
> 
> 
> And there are many women that want both. I agree that too broad brush strokes is dangerous, however general patterns do emerge...
> 
> For example, I also dated a girl that was with a guy I knew before me. She had sex with him MAYBE 1-2 times in the past year and wouldn't do anything but missionary in the dark with her not moving. She was a virgin before him.
> 
> The first night we hooked up she was a wild freak in the sack. And it was all her idea.


The woman could have not been the wild freak with the overly critical a$$h0l3 of a husband. He wanted it his way and his way only, you made her feel comfortable and safe and she opened up as a result. 



marduk said:


> Yup.
> 
> If you think about it, the continuation of the species means that in general both men and women want to get it on with genetically and reproductively fit and successful partners. Repeatedly and with wild abandon.
> 
> Otherwise our species would die out.
> 
> The key (in general as you have wisely pointed out there are exceptions!) is to be that genetically and reproductively fit and successful partner.


Most people in todays society are not following genetic programming only, there is a bunch of social programming over riding what may have been your natural disposition.


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## treyvion

jb02157 said:


> If you figure out how to make one of these, I'm in!


The voodoo doll is playing games with your time, your attention, what you do for them, and how you act towards others.


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## john117

Maybe my lab techs will build us one of those...

View attachment 24434


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## tommyr

wilson said:


> Then while rollerblading, she just has a great time and enjoys that you are with her. She doesn't make you feel bad because you don't enjoy rollerblading as much as she does. Over time, you'll come to look forward to that time together. Not because of the actual rollerblading, but because you see her happiness and know that you are part of that.


Amazing. I wrote a nearly identical example some years ago on another message board. This is exactly what happened with my wife and me. She still has no sex drive, yet we have an active sex life 2X per week.

I think too many guys get hung up on _her_ desire and _her_ sexual gratification. Now don't get me wrong, I always try to make sure that she gets hers. But usually she's more interested in my orgasm than hers. And so I am now fine with that.


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## Marduk

Trickster said:


> Bottom line is that when an other women showed interest in me and I no longer really cared if we stayed married or not, my wife is all of a sudden became all romantic....
> 
> I was no longer trying to "trick" my wife to give me the affection and "sex" that I wanted. I was done.


Mate preselection bias & outcome independence right there.

And just like you said, it works best when it's not a game, but when it's reality all of a sudden the panties come off.

Behold The Almighty Power Of Preselection | Just Four Guys

Outcome Independence with Sex | Average Married Dad


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## Marduk

treyvion said:


> Haha. She probably wouldn't have given it up to the guy unless you broke up with her. And end up doing it on the revenge tip and the opportunity was there. Just because a guy is more attractive does not mean he will get the sex before you. She might not trust him.


LOL, maybe, hadn't thought about it that way...



treyvion said:


> The woman could have not been the wild freak with the overly critical a$$h0l3 of a husband. He wanted it his way and his way only, you made her feel comfortable and safe and she opened up as a result.


Agreed, I think it's both. Not to be overly critical but not to be overly tentative either. Go for what you want and own it, and don't be judgemental or pushy about either what you want or what she wants.





treyvion said:


> Most people in todays society are not following genetic programming only, there is a bunch of social programming over riding what may have been your natural disposition.


What I find most fascinating is that the social programming seems to chart what people "should" want and the genetic programming seems to chart what people actually do want.

For example, you see women all the time marry who is socially the "right" guy but then go have hookups with the "wrong" guy.

I think the loins want what the loins want, and the brain either finds a way to make that ok, or fights for control.

What I'm trying to do is find a sweet spot where the loins and the brain are aligned, where the genetics and social programming are aligned.

Love to hear your thoughts there.


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## richie33

I have the same issues with my wife. I am the affectionate one, the one who hugs and tells my wife I love you. For the past two weeks I stopped doing it. Just to see what her reaction would be....she didn't say it for two weeks and not a hug or even a high five. 
When I bring this to her attention she will of course will say well you didn't say it to me. Totally not take any responsibility. The kicker was when we were out shopping. I had a chart full of things while shopping and she had her own cart, I was first to the register paying and another register opened up and the cashier asked maam I can take you over here and my wife said " we are sort of together". I laughed to myself, thinking that's first real truth she has said about our relationship in a long time.


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## Marduk

richie33 said:


> I have the same issues with my wife. I am the affectionate one, the one who hugs and tells my wife I love you. For the past two weeks I stopped doing it. Just to see what her reaction would be....she didn't say it for two weeks and not a hug or even a high five.
> When I bring this to her attention she will of course will say well you didn't say it to me. Totally not take any responsibility. The kicker was when we were out shopping. I had a chart full of things while shopping and she had her own cart, I was first to the register paying and another register opened up and the cashier asked maam I can take you over here and my wife said " we are sort of together". I laughed to myself, thinking that's first real truth she has said about our relationship in a long time.


The one who needs the relationship the most has the least power.

Men not having the power, in general, is not sexy to women.


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## richie33

That need is diminishing more and more every day.


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## HomeFrontDadAndMore

marduk said:


> The one who needs the relationship the most has the least power.
> 
> *Men not having the power, in general, is not sexy to women*.


:iagree:

You are so right. Funny thing is, I knew this when I was younger and then lost the 'knowledge' somehow.


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## Marduk

HomeFrontDadAndMore said:


> :iagree:
> 
> You are so right. Funny thing is, I knew this when I was younger and then lost the 'knowledge' somehow.


Exact same thing.

When I'm not "in wuv" I'm Mr outcome independence don't give a crap let's go back to my place or I find someone that will...

When I fall in love, then I tend to become Mr Nice Guy.

No more!


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## Chaparral

john117 said:


> Maybe my lab techs will build us one of those...
> 
> View attachment 24434



PinStruck - digital voodoo

Is evoodently easy to cast voodoo curses but .............beware!


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