# Is he too close to his female best friend?



## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

Hello everyone,

I'm new here, so hello!, and would really appreciate some objective and external opinions about my partner's female best friend. I feel that perhaps he may need some objective opinion also, so I will probably be sharing this post, as well as your replies with him.

My partner does not have a huge pool of friends. He's generally a very private person and discusses his personal issues with, quite honestly, next to no-one. A few years ago, we moved from Paris to the south of France and he got a new job is a small company. quickly he became good friends with a female colleague with whom he shares an office. No harm in that. We'd go to her house for social gatherings and the like. 

However, despite my resolve that I was fine with it, gradually certain things started to niggle me. I honestly don't know if they should have, I tried my upmost to take the high road.. 

- My first unease was a strange happy/unhappy feeling. He came alive when he was around her, a spark, witty retorts between him and her. I was so happy to see him like that with someone.. but sad it wasn't with me. I immediatley talked to him about this unease and he reassured me that it was purely plutonic and nothing would ever happen between them. I took a deep breathe and trusted him.

- There was what I would call 'flirtacious banter'. Others may call it just outright banter but certain topics made me frown inside. I appreciate that this is purely a subjective issue and varies from person to person... I didn't feel horrified, just uneasy. I said nothing about this to my spouse at the time.

- When together in a group, on at least two occassions, he and her have gone and sat seperatley, out of ear shot and talked. It made me raise an eyebrow at the time, and I wasn't the only one to notice. And people looked at me as if I should react. I didn't.

- Then unwelcome comments from another colleagues wife, who whispered to me, one time that we were all together, 'you should keep an eye on them' and such like. This made alarm bells tinkle in my brain and sent shivers down my spine. I have since talked to my partner about thse comments and his reponse was along the lines of 'she's in no place to be making observations like that, she should keep an eye on her own marriage, they're going for divorce' and 'other people's opinions matter more to you then my own honest feelings'.

- Her partner at the time, they had only been together a few months, accused her of having feelings for my partner. They seperated, for many other reasons I'm sure. I also raised this with my partner (who I think told me about his comments), and his response was that he was 'unstable' and 'odd', thus nullifing the comments.

Me and my partner seperated after 8 years together, 14 months ago, and decided recently to try and work things out together. We both love each other and want things to work. During my time away, I'm assured that nothing happened between them and I'm pretty sure that I would be told if something had. However during our seperation some other things have jarred me.

- I came to visit once, 6 months ago and we went to see her and her kids. When we arrived he said 'oh, don't be surprised if they call me dad, it's a private joke, I was talking to a (new) girl-friend on the telephone who was very posessive of me even though nothing ever happened between us and they thought it's be funny to wind her up by calling me dad while I was talking to her'. 
I can't help but feel unconfortable with so many factors in that situation. I felt awkward that I was going to see people that knew my partner's personal life, it made me feel a little foolish, while I understand the joke.. It seemed ripe with innappropriae comedy given my former misgivings.

- During our sepeation, knowing she was the only person he would speak to about how he really was doing, I contacted her to reassure myself that he was ok. I also asked if he was dating seriously, questioning whether I myself was able to move on. I know that this was a stupid thing to do... My partner is quite upset that 'I went behind his back digging for information'. He says that she too was upset being used as a source of information. I understand this.
However, she discussed my goings-on with him, he would ask her if I was ok. And she would tell him. And apparently this is acceptable. 

- My partner has openingly admitted that they have discussed sexual issues, problems, general observations. I can't say that he shouldn't have, we were seperated and he was free to do what he wanted of course. However, I do feel uneasy about the fact that their relationship 'became' so open. I'm not sure how to deal with that moving forward. It makes me wonder how much he's talked about me, us, our relationship issues.

- He went to see her, on his own, recently. I wasn't asked not to go, I was awkwardly asked at the minute if I wanted to go with him.

She is currently in a relationship of about 5 months. I'm told it's going relatively well.

Well.. that's my concerns in a nutshell. I really would appreciate any objective views on this, and also any advice on how to move forward. 

Thank you in advance for your time.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Your husband is far gone. I bet right now he and she are talking about the optimal time for him to leave you.

Look up the poster "Weightlifter" as he has a standard post on how to do your reconnaissance. 

That said, you should think about your own exit strategy. Talk to a lawyer about your rights and keep track of the assets. You could file and jar him into the present.

Others will give you some advice to gain a greater perspective.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Also don't be fooled by the fact that this woman has boyfriend.

So did this interloper:

Google boss Sergey Brin's lover Amanda Rosenberg befriended his wife Anne Wojcicki | Daily Mail Online


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

Hello and thank you for your reply.

While I understand the motivations and reasons for wanting to find 'hardproof' of, I'm not sure, cheating..(?) I don't feel that it's the right course of action for me. Without wanting to vex anyone, because I do understand the merits of what you are suggesting, I feel very uncomfortable going to such lengths. If I'm honest, it feels extremely wrong in my heart. 

If he's going to cheat on me, he will, whether or not I spy on him. And I will find out, the old fashioned way.

I hope that doesn't sound harsh.

I do appreciate your opinion, what do you mean by 'far gone'?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Nobody here can tell you if your husband is sleeping with his best friend. Many here will tell you they believe this level of closeness between a man and a woman constitutes an emotional affair, dating and even a relationship. TAM has it's overall collective perspective on things, for the good and not so.

But ultimately what matters is whether they are "too close" for YOUR comfort level. And it sounds like they are. You get to define what kinds of boundaries you want in a relationship.

How honest have you been with him about your feelings? What kinds of boundaries would you like in place?

I will say that many have ignored that gut feeling and have regretted it in the end. Trust your instincts.


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

I have been entirely honest about how I feel about many of the aspects of their 'relationship' that have made me uncomfortable. I've asked outright if there was anything I should to aware of. 

There are perhaps some 'events' that I've felt uneasy with that I've not talked to him about. One time they were away on business together in Germany, with others in the company I hasten to add, and when I contacted him to say hi he said he couldn't talk because he was having a drink with her. I didn't make issue of it because it felt like I was nagging about the same thing again and again.

I believe that he is honest in that nothing has 'physically' happened. The trouble is, when I have raised the subject in the past, he is morally outraged that I could still think that. How could I not trust him? Etc. So it makes it a difficult battle to fight. He's recently accused me of trying to control who he sees and who are his friends because since we've been back together I've made it clear that I don't consider her a friend to me. He says that makes it impossible for him to be her friend, pointing out that I'll be cold to her if ever I see her. I can understand his point of view, but I've never told him who he can and can not see. 

As for boundaries, I suppose that's why I'm here. I'm having some trouble knowing where exactly to draw the line, because I don't want him to lose his friend because of me. I think it's healthy to have close friends outside of a relationship.. but when does it go too far?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

I don't believe in female/male friendships......

Also, let's take the facts, this guy spends MORE time in the office with this lady than just about any other person on this planet.

NATURALLY, some kind of connection WILL develop. If there is ANY attraction from either side, it's a dangerous slope.

This has nothing to do with how your husband might be or his honesty etc, it's simple human nature.

Put 2 people in one room for extended periods of times and there will be spark.

Personally, I think this should've been some kind of relationship boundary (no opposite sex friends). It's ok to have co workers, but no need to hang out with them or be friends.

I never really understood this, I spend 8 hours of my day with my coworkers.....there is NO WAY IN HELL I want to spend another min after the work day. 

Sure from time to time we will play sports, but hanging out etc? No thanks.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

He wants to have sex with her. Of that I have ZERO doubt. Men do not pal around with women they don't want to screw. Lunch with the gang at work? Sure. Chatting at the water cooler? No probs. After work happy hour with the gang. Of course. Sneaking away together at a party to chat secretly? Discussing boyfriends and girlfriends? Alone for a drink at night while away? Um...no.

It's HER intentions that I don't know about. Ladies?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

1st question... is she







??

I would not at all be comfortable with the level of flirtatious banter, her kids calling him "Dad", his openly discussing sex, relationship anything/ everything.. given all you have shared, then your calling her..and her feeling THAT was inappropriate! major







.







....

Sounds you have been together a long time.. over 8 yrs but she came into the picture 3 yrs ago when he took a new job...

When a couple is in a relationship ...all friends, co-workers, if they are decent people not over-stepping boundaries, need to respect you "as a couple"...where one goes, so does the other.. and similar levels of sharing.. . she is NOT DOING THIS BY ANY MEANS...or she would be AS FRIENDLY, as WILLING to talk to you about everything/ anything she is talking to him ... 

Every slippery slope starts with an inner privacy shared between 2 chummy adults who are physically attracted and emotionally enjoy their time & banter...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/articles/993-sex-lies-secrets-secrecy-destroying-your-marriage.html

Never under estimate such a chemistry..most men will hang around for dear life if they want that woman.. they will make excuses one after the other that it's nothing, that someone is making a mountain out of a molehill.. I have to agree with MachoMcCoy ..

What do you feel is her story here...what sort of men does she go after- her BF's?? Would you say your partner is not exactly her type... but she loves the attention , this feeds her ego ??

Still unclear on this.. are you married , or he's just a long term partner?


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## Observer (Aug 23, 2011)

Trust your gut. You sound very intelligent, therefor trusting your gut may not sound logical, but do it. There are many red flags here OP. What would you do if he is having an affair?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I would be concerned about her kids calling him Dad.

Sounds like your H is having a hard time letting go of her, whatever their relationship was/is. I think you just have to be honest and open with him, and be willing to walk away if you do not feel you are getting it back.

I would not focus on _her_. _He_ should be your concern. That is where you have influence.


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

Unsure82 said:


> Hello and thank you for your reply.
> 
> While I understand the motivations and reasons for wanting to find 'hardproof' of, I'm not sure, cheating..(?) I don't feel that it's the right course of action for me. Without wanting to vex anyone, because I do understand the merits of what you are suggesting, I feel very uncomfortable going to such lengths. If I'm honest, it feels extremely wrong in my heart.


What you don't understand is that he is cheating.
He is pouring way too much energy into her.
He is growing a relationship with her by watering the grass.

You have voiced your concerns and yet he still does what he wants even though it causes you pain.



Unsure82 said:


> If he's going to cheat on me, he will, whether or not I spy on him. And I will find out, the old fashioned way.


Unfortunately, he is cheating. You just refuse to believe it for what it is



Unsure82 said:


> what do you mean by 'far gone'?


It means he is already cheating. He is putting way too much energy into the OW (and it is the OW)
It is just matter of where and when it turns physical

My advice is to go talk to a lawyer.
Get your money in order.
Put an exit plan together.
Start the 180.
Server him the divorce papers.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> Originally Posted by Unsure82 View Post
> what do you mean by 'far gone'?


He's too far down / gone the path between your bed and hers. 

People will cheat if they want to. Yes, that's true. So the next best thing is to be on notice to limit the damage that his cheating will cause; ie., his funnelling household money (yours and his) to her and her family; and to make you appear an even bigger fool among his work community than some of his co-workers and their spouses already think. 

Don't call those woman bitter hens. They are alerting you to a real and present problem in your relationship.


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

Hello SimplyAmorous,

I suppose that she is a relatively good looking woman. 



> I would not at all be comfortable with the level of flirtatious banter, her kids calling him "Dad", his openly discussing sex, relationship anything/ everything.. given all you have shared, then your calling her..and her feeling THAT was inappropriate! major .....


I understand where you are coming from. One of my major personality flaws, as well as personality perk, is that I have far too much empathy. I understand that she was hurt that I contacted her to 'dig for information'. But put in context...



> Never under estimate such a chemistry..most men will hang around for dear life if they want that woman.. they will make excuses one after the other that it's nothing, that someone is making a mountain out of a molehill.


This makes me so sad. You're probably right.. But I hope upon hope that you're not and he just wants her as a friend.



> What do you feel is her story here...what sort of men does she go after- her BF's?? Would you say your partner is not exactly her type... but she loves the attention , this feeds her ego ??


To be honest I don't really know what her type is, the only person that I've seen her with was bigger and more err musculier then my partner. Perhaps physically she's not attracted to him. She's very gregarious, outgoing, extroverted and has a lot of friends. (Much like my partner, whereas I'm quite reserved, gentle and I suppose timid in a non-mousey way).



> Still unclear on this.. are you married , or he's just a long term partner?


We're PACS'ed (type of civil agreement in France) which isn't married.. many French people they consider it marriage and do not go further then a PACS.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

All I'll say is, we will be biased from your version of the story. Someone else, who has observed the interaction, felt it looked bad enough to pull you aside and say watch them.


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

*Observer:* If he is having an affair... It would crush me to a million pieces. I'll be quite honest. My gut tells me that physically nothing has gone on. 

My question is now, how much of my partner am I willing to share, be it emotionally, or energy-wise with his best friend. And where do I draw the line? 5these are rhetorical questions  )

*JLD:* He is where I have the influence, indeed. But do I put my foot down qnd tell him not to see his friend? I feel terrible just thinking it.

*Snerg:* I understand where you are coming from. But should this be the end of my relationship? Or should I try and find a solution. 

I left once a year ago, for.. an array of other reasons, despite the fact that I love this man so so much. If I leave again for this... there will be no turning back, and I want things to work between us.

*Nexttimearound:* Notice, I didn't call these women bitter hens, he did. I said that they were unwelcome comments, because who welcomes those kind of revelations from people you barely know?
*
Philly:* I've tried my upmost to be gentle in how I described the events. I agree you only have my version of the story.. But I have explained that he does not have many close friends, we'd just moved 5 hours away from where we used to live so those few close friends he did have were then out of 'reach'. I feel for him and I do want him to have friends and be happy.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You have to decide what you can live with, OP. 

My guess is she rejected him, but he is hanging on.

Are you French? Just curious. My husband is from Normandy.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Unsure82 said:


> *
> Philly:* I've tried my upmost to be gentle in how I described the events. I agree you only have my version of the story.. But I have explained that he does not have many close friends, we'd just moved 5 hours away from where we used to live so those few close friends he did have were then out of 'reach'. I feel for him and I do want him to have friends and be happy.


 When I say bias, we have to take your word. I am not saying you are a liar. I'm saying we give advice based on zero observations and your story. You have an actual observer who agreed with your "niggle." My wife had a friend like this, I called it an EA, her choice was she could leave or end the friendship. She doesn't have a ton of friends and she now has one less.


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

JLD: I'm English, I just fell in love with a Frenchman and moved here.. nearly 10 years ago now.. good grief  

Philly: Ultimatum, that would make my partner's head explode. I don't want to be covered in grey matter


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

As someone who has an OSF - I say those two are way too close, and he's not going to ever make you a priority with her around. Don't trust him when he says nothing has happened - I would bet money something has happened between them.


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## Observer (Aug 23, 2011)

Unsure82 said:


> *Observer:* If he is having an affair... It would crush me to a million pieces. I'll be quite honest. My gut tells me that physically nothing has gone on.
> 
> My question is now, how much of my partner am I willing to share, be it emotionally, or energy-wise with his best friend. And where do I draw the line? 5these are rhetorical questions  )
> 
> ...


I think you have every right to, in fact you should, demand he stop seeing her socially. Look, you are in a relationship. Sometimes we make sacrafices for our partners peace of mind. As partners, we also have an obligation to provide a secure emotional environment for the one we say we love. Friends come and go, the person you are married to (or in your case near married) is suppose to be forever. You are viewing it as your problem to get over, when I see it as him being indifferent and disresectful to your feelings. 

Bottom line, I see your hesitation for not wanting to look hard into their relationship. In the back of your mind I'm sure you are somewhat afraid of what you may find. While that pains me, that is your choice. Still, do not hesitate to do things that in your relationships best interest...that means enough with the pretty co-worker already


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hon, I think you're playing second fiddle. Living with that is up to you. I could not do it.


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## Observer (Aug 23, 2011)

vms said:


> As someone who has an OSF - I say those two are way too close, and he's not going to ever make you a priority with her around. Don't trust him when he says nothing has happened - I would bet money something has happened between them.


wow, that is enough for me. A more open minded OSF supporter you will not find than vms


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

Apologies, what is OSF?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Unsure82 said:


> Philly:[/B] I've tried my upmost to be gentle in how I described the events. I agree you only have my version of the story.. But I have explained that he does not have many close friends,* we'd just moved 5 hours away from where we used to live so those few close friends he did have were then out of 'reach'. I feel for him and I do want him to have friends and be happy*.


You are much too kind and empathetic Unsure.. I am afraid.. it's those who always want to see *the very best in people *who can be blind sided the most..


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## Observer (Aug 23, 2011)

Unsure82 said:


> Apologies, what is OSF?


Opposite sex Friend


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

These last few comments have hit a nerve... This is not fun 

We had a massive fight last night about not just this, but other substantial issues.. I don't know if I can stomach talking about it again just yet.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Observer said:


> wow, that is enough for me. A more open minded OSF supporter you will not find than vms


Thanks  

There are lines you just don't cross with the opposite sex, and this guy has blown way past them.


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

Could you detail what exactly, please VMS?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Unsure82 said:


> *
> Philly:* I've tried my upmost to be gentle in how I described the events. I agree you only have my version of the story.. But I have explained that he does not have many close friends, we'd just moved 5 hours away from where we used to live so those few close friends he did have were then out of 'reach'. I feel for him and I do want him to have friends and be happy.


My husband when we were dating claimed that his just a friend ex was his only friend in London. (where we had met and he had been there for 18 months by then)

still my response was "find some new friends." I've stopped being charitable to people who are lazy about anything.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

I'm sorry that you're in this situation. It can be difficult, and no one wants to believe that their partner is "cheating" or spending too much time with someone else. That is why is always so hard to us to come to the realization that it COULD be possible. We ask random people on the Internet, even when someone in our real life has observed their inappropriate behavior... Disbelief that it could actually happen to us.


It is a statement when someone who has witnessed their behavior (Other than yourself, of course) pulls you to the side and tells you to watch out for them. You had been feeling uneasy, and this "witness" to their relationship basically just confirmed it for you. 

You ignore it, citing not wanting to be a nag.

Her kids call him dad? How is that even a funny inside joke? Isn't that confusing to the children? Why would someone do that? I'll tell you why, he was spending too much time over there, probably doing things they had to describe as something that only "mommies and daddies" do. Okay, maybe that is too far of a reach (nah) but seriously, what he told you more than likely isn't true about why they called him dad. 

If you separated, then went to visit him, why would he spend that time with her? Why would he take you to go spend time with her? Why didn't he spend that time with only you? 

She felt disrespected because you were asking about him? Why in the world did she feel disrespected? She was being USED for information? Hardly. You were being friendly, I am assuming. She had no reason to feel disrespected...she did, however, have a reason to feel jealous. She is competing with you whether you want to see it or not. If he leaves you, That is where he is going. Of that I have no doubt. She is trying to get him to that point. Of that I have no doubt either.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Unsure82 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm new here, so hello!, and would really appreciate some objective and external opinions about my partner's female best friend. I feel that perhaps he may need some objective opinion also, so I will probably be sharing this post, as well as your replies with him.
> 
> ...





Unsure82 said:


> Could you detail what exactly, please VMS?


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

The joke about calling him Dad, I feel I should explain further. I can see the funny side kind of, despite not being at ease with it.

My partner was 'dating' other women while we were seperated. This one woman, who he says nothing happened with, was very possessive of him despite 'nothing happening between them' (his words - of this I don't think he has any reason to lie to me, because it was a random person and I don't really give a monkey's who he shacked up with while we were seperated.)

Apparently his best friend took rather a dislike to this new 'woman' because she euh.. was a little bit on the short skirt and 16inch make up side. (My partner told me this). 

One day when he was with his best friend and her children, his best friend thought it would be funny to stress out this girl, wind her up, whatever... by the kids calling him dad. Like he had a family on side that she knew nothing about. 

My partner told me this just as we arrived at her house... the kids didn't call him dad when I was there. But I did bring up the subject while there and the eldest daughter confirmed the byline.

The kids are old enough to have realised it was a joke IMHO. 

Whether I should have been let in on this little slapstick is another matter.

And you're right Wounded... I was.. a little derailed, but not surprised when I came over and we spent time with her.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Bottom line here is, if you want your marriage to work, that woman MUST BE GONE. 

I'm dead serious. You will never have a marriage with her in the picture.

I also question what man who is committed to and in love with his wife dates the minute he's separated. One could argue that he was trying to get over his hurt using other women, and that's possible, but that's also a sign of low moral character if you ask me.


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

Hmm ok VMS... I shall reflect.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I would just tell him it is her or me. And if I thought he were having any second thoughts, I would know he chose her. And I would act accordingly.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

I'm not going to question going to see her. Dh and I spend time with my OSF when we are all three in the same town at the same time. However, those two have a lot in common so frankly, when we all get together, I'm a bit ignored, and you know what? That's awesome. That's how it should work with an OSF of a married person. No one should feel left out for the wrong reasons. 

Has this woman ever invited JUST YOU out for coffee? To a movie? Does she talk to you when the three of y'all are together? Or are you the third wheel, as I'm guessing you are?


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

I questioned that too (dating other people, what was... maybe 3 or 4 months after I left). I struggled, I still don't really understand.. I guess I put it down to men being men (sorry all the men out there...) :/


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

She's never invited me out on my own no VMS.. But my partner has suggested that we go shopping together.. so I could dress more 'maturely' I think was what he said.

And I can hear your tut from here.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Unsure82 said:


> She's never invited me out on my own no VMS.. But my partner has suggested that we go shopping together.. so I could dress more 'maturely' I think was what he said.
> 
> And I can hear your tut from here.


He meant more like her.....


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

vms said:


> Bottom line here is,* if you want your marriage to work, that woman MUST BE GONE. *
> I'm dead serious. You will never have a marriage with her in the picture.
> 
> I also question what man who is committed to and in love with his wife dates the minute he's separated. One could argue that he was trying to get over his hurt using other women, and that's possible, but that's also a sign of low moral character if you ask me.


I bet she has already advised your husband to dump you. Has offered advice on some of the perceived failings of yours. That could be where his suggestion to dress better comes from.

That would be interesting if you could at least get a hold of any messaging system that they use ie text, e-mail, FB, IM, whatever and see how often they talk about you.

That's exactly how it happened in my situation.


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

Ouch.

He's out of luck there..


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

I really feel uncomfortable with that idea VMS. And it's a pretty impossible option I believe.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Unsure82 said:


> She's never invited me out on my own no VMS.. But my partner has suggested that we go shopping together.. so I could dress more 'maturely' I think was what he said.
> 
> And I can hear your tut from here.


Lol, yeah, I'm sure you can. 

I'm sure you are perfectly capable of dressing yourself in whatever fashion YOU enjoy. Your style is not his business, unless you look like a tramp. That's not a good look for anyone.

Or this. I'm quite sure you have better taste though.


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

I suppose I could ask him if I could look at his phone. But the look of sheer disapointment and horror on his face is already haunting me.


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

Hey how did you find my facebook profile photo


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Unsure82 said:


> I really feel uncomfortable with that idea VMS. And it's a pretty impossible option I believe.


No, it's not. You are not his slave. He does not own you. He doesn't deserve you, either. He is not your lifeline, your air, or your future, unless he can do what needs to be done, and telling his "friend" to ****** off is what needs to be done. If he can't see it, then he has told you loud and clear, "You do not matter as much as her." I'm sorry, but that is the truth.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

This is one of those threads where I only had to read the thread title to answer "yes."


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Unsure82 said:


> I suppose I could ask him if I could look at his phone. But the look of sheer disapointment and horror on his face is already haunting me.


I would not ask to see a phone. If I could not get a sense of trust through open and honest communication, I could not go on in the relationship.


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

That's how I feel about it JLD.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Unsure82 said:


> As for boundaries, I suppose that's why I'm here. I'm having some trouble knowing where exactly to draw the line, because I don't want him to lose his friend because of me. I think it's healthy to have close friends outside of a relationship.. but when does it go too far?


Again, nobody can define your boundary for you.

Everyone here is different. Some don't believe in having ANY close/best friends outside of their spouse, regardless of sex. Many here are adamantly against opposite sex friends (OSF) and will tell you it shouldn't be allowed in a marriage. Others, myself included, don't have an issue with OSF and find friendship to be vital to a life well lived.

You have to decide what your own perspective is. I will tell you as someone with OSF, and a wife who has them, we don't police what the other does. But if one of us is uneasy we are free to express that and we trust the spouse will do what's in the best interest of the marriage first. ALL of our friends, no matter what the sex, must respect the marriage and the other spouse. We've both dumped two friends, one of hers was a female bestie since college, that became enemies of our relationship, or one of us. We killed those friendships swiftly.

The red flag I see with your husband is that you've given very rational causes for concern, and he's been very dismissive. Not a good sign no matter whether he's cheating or not. I think you're well within your rights to tell him that you're uncomfortable with their relationship and you expect him to make serious changes to his more liberal boundaries with this woman. I have female friends, a couple close, but none of my relationships look anything like what's going on with this woman.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

jaquen said:


> You have to decide what your own perspective is. I will tell you as someone with OSF, and a wife who has them, we don't police what the other does. But if one of us is uneasy we are free to express that and we trust the spouse will do what's in the best interest of the marriage first. ALL of our friends, no matter what the sex, must respect the marriage and the other spouse. We've both dumped two friends, one of hers was a female bestie since college, that became enemies of our relationship, or one of us. We killed those friendships swiftly.
> 
> *The red flag I see with your husband is that you've given very rational causes for concern, and he's been very dismissive. Not a good sign no matter whether he's cheating or not.* I think you're well within your rights to tell him that you're uncomfortable with their relationship and you expect him to make serious changes to his more liberal boundaries with this woman. I have female friends, a couple close, but none of my relationships look anything like what's going on with this woman.


:iagree:

Your H is dismissing and belittling your very valid concerns so he can keep doing what he wants. THAT is the biggest problem here - he is content to continue making you unhappy and feeling insecure all so he can continue his friendship with her. 

Read the book, "Not Just Friends." Your husband is having an Emotional Affair but doesn't see it, won't admit it, and thinks you should just suck it up while he has his cake. Regardless of whether this has become physical, his head is not in your marriage and hasn't been for a long, long time.

If leaving him once didn't wake him up, I think you have very little left to work with here in terms of a marriage.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

Unsure82 said:


> Well.. that's my concerns in a nutshell. I really would appreciate any objective views on this, and also any advice on how to move forward.


Your partner formed a relationship with another woman. I would not label what you described as friendship it's a relationship. Doesn't matter if it is intimate or not. 

What matters is that their relationship interferes with your relationship with your partner and they both don't care about how it effects your relationship. 

Your partner and the woman have disrespected you and shown no empathy to your feelings. You on the other hand are attempting to honor their relationship, show respect and empathy to their feelings. 

You move forward by deciding if you want to have people in your life who disrespect you and have no empathy for you.


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

Unsure82 said:


> *Observer:* If he is having an affair... It would crush me to a million pieces. I'll be quite honest. My gut tells me that physically nothing has gone on. .


Again, what you are willing to accept - He most definitely has a relationship




Unsure82 said:


> My question is now, how much of my partner am I willing to share, be it emotionally, or energy-wise with his best friend. And where do I draw the line? 5these are rhetorical questions  )


You don't share anything. You establish boundaries as to what you will accept. For example, explain (and this is just a small example, you can expand this to so much more) if he won't stop talking about his issues with you to her, then you have every right to and will walk away from your relationship with him. BTW, this isn't an ultimatum. I'm not a fan of ultimatums because you have to be prepared for the bad part of one. It becomes his choice to choose you or her.




Unsure82 said:


> *JLD:* He is where I have the influence, indeed. But do I put my foot down qnd tell him not to see his friend? I feel terrible just thinking it.


Again, you establish boundaries of what you will accept - don't tell him he can't have this friend. What you can say/do - I don't like the relationship you have with this woman. If you continue to have this relationship, then I will leave.



Unsure82 said:


> *Snerg:* I understand where you are coming from. But should this be the end of my relationship? Or should I try and find a solution.
> 
> I left once a year ago, for.. an array of other reasons, despite the fact that I love this man so so much. If I leave again for this... there will be no turning back, and I want things to work between us.


Not an end to your relationship - you are now going to put in place enforceable boundaries. If he chooses to break your boundaries, then you move ahead with a divorce - he will have shown that he doesn't respect you and he doesn't deserve you.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

He is much more interested in her, than you. Do 180 , and be ready to leave.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

What surprises me is that so many posters here give benefit of doubt to your husband, believing that may be this is not physical. If man posted this, with all these red flags, almost everybody would say she is cheating.


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> What surprises me is that so many posters here give benefit of doubt to your husband, believing that may be this is not physical. If man posted this, with all these red flags, almost everybody would say she is cheating.


Preach!!!!!! :iagree:


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> What surprises me is that so many posters here give benefit of doubt to your husband, believing that may be this is not physical. If man posted this, with all these red flags, almost everybody would say she is cheating.


:iagree:


A wife so much as looks at a co-worker, and out come the pitchforks to spear the cheating b*tch and her POS OM because, of course and for sure she's been having all kinds of sex with the POS OM that she wouldn't have with her H. 

This guy has pretty much come out and said this OW is more important to him than his own wife, and he's playing Daddy to her kids, and no one even _mentions _that he's having an EA that very well could have become physical at any time during the last few *years *since they met.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> What surprises me is that so many posters here give benefit of doubt to your husband, believing that may be this is not physical. If man posted this, with all these red flags, almost everybody would say she is cheating.


I think you are missing the subtly of many of the posters.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I think you are missing the subtly of many of the posters.


Maybe that's the problem. They are being subtle. If this situation were flipped, it wouldn't be subtle at all. The wife would be a wh*re that was sleeping with male best friend, no if's, and's, or but's about it.


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## tryingpatience (May 7, 2014)

Seeing as they have already gone on a business trip together and have had many opportunities to be alone this could already be a PA.

Not sure why OP is choosing to believe in him blindly seeing as he doesn't even want to do anything to help her feel secure in their relationship.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

tryingpatience said:


> *Seeing as they have already gone on a business trip together and have had many opportunities to be alone this could already be a PA.*
> 
> Not sure why OP is choosing to believe in him blindly seeing as he doesn't even want to do anything to help her feel secure in their relationship.


Exactly.


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## Observer (Aug 23, 2011)

Well there is a way to say something so it does not put the poster in Defensive mode, while at the same time opening the persons eyes as to what's going on. I think some of us attempted that. The reason you can tell a man directly is because typcially men react different than women.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

OP, it looks as though you are the interloper in their relationship. Face it, your husband has a girlfriend. The question is do you like her? Is it all right for your husband to have a girlfriend?

Oh, I can only imagine the look of disappointment and horror on your husband's face when he realizes that his gaslighting and cake eating days are over. C'est la vie.


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## tryingpatience (May 7, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> OP, it looks as though you are the interloper in their relationship. Face it, your husband has a girlfriend. The question is do you like her? Is it all right for your husband to have a girlfriend?
> 
> Oh, I can only imagine the look of disappointment and horror on your husband's face when he realizes that his gaslighting and cake eating days are over. C'est la vie.


Not so subtle :smthumbup: I tried subtle. I like this more. But like Observer pointed out. Men react differently. But seriously OP you are taking on too much. He's trampling all over your boundaries and he'll just keep pushing them back if you don't expose this for what it is or put your foot down and walk.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

staarz21 said:


> Maybe that's the problem. They are being subtle.


That was sarcasm on my part, my apologies. I referenced an EA and others called him a cheater. they did this with words and examples. Why it is not a witch hunt is a discussion for another thread. Oh and women do get it worse, but that's a derail from helping the Op.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## D.H Mosquito (Jul 22, 2014)

If you're on here asking if he is too close to his female friend then you know he is, the closeness and the business trips would leave me feeling unsettled to say the least, now the question is what can you do about it? you know something isn't right and there are some very good posters on here who can help you in the right direction whichever decision you make or are forced to make and good luck


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> What surprises me is that so many posters here give benefit of doubt to your husband, believing that may be this is not physical. If man posted this, with all these red flags, almost everybody would say she is cheating.


I know you gals LOVE the gender wars, but there was universal acceptance that this is an inappropriate relationship. Save the man bashing for where it's warranted.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> What surprises me is that so many posters here give benefit of doubt to your husband, believing that may be this is not physical. If man posted this, with all these red flags, almost everybody would say she is cheating.


We have no idea if the relationship is physical.

Just because TAM has a collective consensus on matters doesn't mean it's always right, or that everyone here agrees.

I personally have no idea if the man is sleeping with his "best friend". Flipping the genders wouldn't make a bit of difference in my observations. It's ultimately irrelevant because the issue isn't what he's doing with the friend, but what the OP believes he's doing and what boundaries have been crossed by her standards. 
Personally I'm not the VAR/PI type. I think this man's relationship with this woman has caused trouble enough for the OP to take bold, aggressive action. I think the fact that he's disrespected her and is clearly choosing this other woman over her is violation enough, no matter whether he's stuck his penis in or not.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jaquen said:


> We have no idea if the relationship is physical.
> 
> Just because TAM has a collective consensus on matters doesn't mean it's always right, or that everyone here agrees.
> 
> ...


I think it can be useful. When I was dating my husband, he insisted that this woman was just a friend and then the whole discussion got derailed. Armed with facts and figure (ie credit card statements that he just left lying around his flat), I was able to say, "but you did treat her LIKE a girlfriend and it has stop."

If I didn't have those facts and figures, I would have been as productive as dog chasing its tail.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I think you are missing the subtly of many of the posters.


I thought this was pretty subtle. Don't the rest of you think so?



staarz21 said:


> Her kids call him dad? How is that even a funny joke? Isn't that confusing to the children? Why would someone do that? *I'll tell you why, he was spending too much time over there, probably doing things they had to describe as something that only "mommies and daddies" do.* Okay, maybe that is too far of a reach (nah) but seriously, what he told you more than likely isn't true about why they called him dad.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I think it can be useful. When I was dating my husband, he insisted that this woman was just a friend and then the whole discussion got derailed. Armed with facts and figure (ie credit card statements that he just left lying around his flat), I was able to say, "but you did treat her LIKE a girlfriend and it has stop."
> 
> If I didn't have those facts and figures, I would have been as productive as dog chasing its tail.


It can be very useful.

I'm just saying I'm not the type. If I have to have the conversation about it in the first place the problem is already apparent. I'm not a paranoid person, but my instincts are typically razor sharp, especially when it comes to my woman; she often has said through the years that I read her faster than she reads herself. So if I even suspected an inappropriate relationship trouble is at the door and making it's way in.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Observer said:


> Well there is a way to say something so it does not put the poster in Defensive mode, while at the same time opening the persons eyes as to what's going on. I think some of us attempted that. The reason you can tell a man directly is because typcially men react different than women.


are you saying women are too fragile and couldn't handle the truth?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I know you gals LOVE the gender wars, but there was universal acceptance that this is an inappropriate relationship. Save the man bashing for where it's warranted.


You are the pro if gender wars. 

If man listed half of what she listed as inappriate behavior, there would be one after another advise on buying VAR and other electronic gadgets to catch him red handed. Can you imagine if someone's wife was called "Mommy" by her co-worker's children? These people have all the fun or relationship without all the problems usually coming with it. 

Yes, her husband has a girlfriend, and she needs to face it. Right now OP is still living in denial.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Opposite sex friends. Just say no. End of discussion. 

Leads to mistakes, just one time... Didn't mean it, divorce and pain.

Read Not Just Friends/Glass


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> What surprises me is that so many posters here give benefit of doubt to your husband, believing that may be this is not physical. If man posted this, with all these red flags, almost everybody would say she is cheating.


Not me. The guy is a POS. 

If this ain't PA, I'm a hat... * to VMS*


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

The minute that I saw you refer to the other woman ("OW") as your husband's "female best friend", I knew why your marriage was in trouble. Although you can debate if opposite sex friends ("OSF") in marriage are a good idea, making an OSF your best friend will hurt your marriage. A new paper from The National Bureau of Economic Research analyzed wellbeing data from two national surveys in the United Kingdom and the Gallup World Poll to search for common threads that weave together a happy marriage. This new research has boiled the key to spousal success down to one simple tip. And this tip holds true worldwide, across cultures, ages and incomes: Find a significant other who is also your best friend. If the OW is your spouses female best friend, then that means that you are not.


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

Firstly, I've read through all the messages posted since I was last online. While I do understand the rather strong, and if I may be so bold, aggressive, nature of some of these responses, I feel that one thing needs to be remembered.

I am a strong believer that in a relationship, in 99% of the cases, both partner's are responsible for what their relationship looks like. My husband found refuge in a female friend. Yes he has talked to her about me, about the things that weren't ok between us and things that weren't ok in his life. Well, perhaps I wasn't giving him everything he needed. Actually there is no perhaps, this is the case. Our relationship, despite loving each other very much (of this I have no doubt), was very dysfunctional. 

People here are crushing with their words of judgement on him. Well I take on 50% of that judgement. Not only was I not providing everything he needed, but it was I who LET HIM crush boundaries.

Now that's out the way.

I tried to talk to my partner last night. I told him I had discussed this matter on an online forum to have some external opinion. He was not happy. When I explained the content of what I had said, he hit the roof.

- Posting a skewed vision of what has happened and asking a bunch of unknown people about such a matter is ridiculous. Of course in those circumstances, they will support me and tell me that he's a dragon.

- I offered to him that he read the forum, he said not tonight he was too angry. But perhaps he would post his own versoin of events, to which I said he would be more then welcome. But I doubt that he will.

- I told him that I was not comfortable with certain aspects of his friendship with his best friend. That certain things should be between me and him. That if he's talked things over with her, while he might be clearer on things then before he spoke to her, I'm left out in the cold on the whole issue. These conversations must happen behind closed doors and I don't feel at ease with that.

- He said that it was outrageous that I was asking him to limit his conversation content with his best friend. I was trying to control him so I'd have him just to myself. 

- He said that it's healthy that couples speak to people outside of their relationship. To have a different perspective. 

- He said that I must be insane, mental to even have the idea that he should do this.

- I said that most women would feel the way I do about this situation. His reponse was that I'm pulling information out of thin air.

- I said that perhaps if he was not willing to understand that I was not comfortable with him talking about personal issues with her, perhaps I should talk to her about it. He said YOU WILL NOT DARE MEDDLE IN MY FRIENDSHIPS. He said that if I did, he hoped that she would flatten me with her reponse to such an outrageous request, not to hurt me but so that I would realise that it is outrageous.

- He said that his wife should want him to have close friends and should accept his friends and want to be their friends too. If his partner was trying to force him out of his friendships then it's not a relationship that's healthy and it's not one he wants to be in. That woman is not for him.

- He said that they have never discussed our sexual relation (thank god for that). He said she has never belittled me or said anything harsh about me. If anything she gave him a hard time about how he treated me after I left him. If anything she is the one who made him see that he couldn't move on from me because he still loved me. If anything I should be thankful she was there to support him through those months.

- He left the bed last night, where we were talking and went to sleep on the couch. I said to him that if his reaction is this strong, if he decides to sleep on the couch, that she is clearly more important to him that I am. He said that his relationship with me comes before everything but that should not be mutually exclusive to him having friends. He said that he was disgusted and very hurt by the things that I'd said and he didn't want to sleep with me.

- I said if you sleep there I will pack my bags. To which he replied, you do that and I swear... I started packing my bags.

- He came to find me and parts of the conversation were rehashed. He eventually came back to bed. I said that I loved him, twice... and he refused to reply saying 'Do you remember just before you left me you couldn't say that you love me.... Well I can't say that tonight'.

- It was too much for me, I got out of bed and sat until 4am thinking. 

- This morning he left without a word.

I'm very lost. I do feel like I'm stepping on his right to speak freely with his friend. I just wish there was an iota of understanding, empathy from him.. Just to concede on something. But I know him, he will not concede on this.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

You have your answer. She means more to him than you. Is it true that in France it is customary for people to have spouses & lovers? Perhaps it's a cultural difference.

One thing is particularly humorous: You will not dare meddle in his friendships and yet he lets his 'friend' meddle in your marriage. That's rich. Start packing.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

the last time something similar happened to me and he was just a boyfriend .

i left after i told him to choose , gf or colleague . he cant choose . i left .

after i left , a year later , they had a baby and they divorced .

working backwards the age of the child , he must have been sleeping with her while he was with me !!!!

my gut feel was right

n my bf then cant leave his female colleague for me too .

so who is more important ????

leave before you have children with man


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

I think it's natural for any woman/men to have some kind of attraction/feelings/relationship as they spend time together.

You can't really go around nature and time. I don't care how strong someone might be or how faithful.

Nature will take it's course.

While in a relationship it's people's responsibility to not put themselves into situation that present risk to the marriage.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

DoF said:


> I think it's natural for any woman/men to have some kind of attraction/feelings/relationship as they spend time together.
> 
> You can't really go around nature and time. I don't care how strong someone might be or how faithful.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## Observer (Aug 23, 2011)

DoF said:


> I think it's natural for any woman/men to have some kind of attraction/feelings/relationship as they spend time together.
> 
> You can't really go around nature and time. I don't care how strong someone might be or how faithful.
> 
> ...


I agree too. I know we spend so much time nowadays thinking we have evolved to some heightened era of human existence, but reality says the same things that happened between men and women 300 years ago, still do today. Failure to accept that is just denial of reality. 

Unsure, is it that you feel bad that you are interfereing in his "friendship", or more that you are afraid of the consequences? You do not want to be without him, that much comes across clear. His whole reaction is illogical. The things he said are accurate, you need to friends to vent to, etc.; however, his failure to understand that doing it with a female is not o.k., simply baffles me. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out. 

Yes, you are getting harsh judgement becasue many of us have seen this scenerio play out time and time again. As much as you think your situation is unique, it's not. We have seen the same reactions, the same excuses, the same logic, the same patterns....seen enough to make educated judgments as to what's going on. Many people, myself included, thought we were the exception to the rule. In the end, very few were correct. I personally hope that he is not doing anything and you two are happy. I hope that after he thinks it over, he chooses to do what is best for his relationship to you. I am an optimist by nature and tend to give people the benfit of the doubt. I am also a relaist too though, and realize there are people that do messed up things.


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## tryingpatience (May 7, 2014)

Observer said:


> Yes, you are getting harsh judgement becasue many of us have seen this scenerio play out time and time again. As much as you think your situation is unique, it's not. We have seen the same reactions, the same excuses, the same logic, the same patterns....seen enough to make educated judgments as to what's going on. Many people, myself included, thought we were the exception to the rule. In the end, very few were correct. I personally hope that he is not doing anything and you two are happy. I hope that after he thinks it over, he chooses to do what is best for his relationship to you. I am an optimist by nature and tend to give people the benfit of the doubt. I am also a relaist too though, and realize there are people that do messed up things.


I was in the same boat as well. Many of us have been there before.

I understand that you must be very confused and lost right now. You're right that no relationship is perfect and both partners contribute to what that relationship looks like.

Although the responses here may seem aggressive and bold, I'd like you to consider something. Many of us expect marriage to be exclusive. When we love someone we choose that person to be with. We don't expect to share that person. It's an all or nothing deal. In that context those responses make absolute sense i.e. he leaves his gf or you leave. You have each other exclusively or you don't have each other at all.

If others find the relationship unsettling, there is a reason. Don't buy this pulling information out of thin air business.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Yes we understand the sadness of an end of a love. Maybe it helps to remind yourself there are better man out there and you will discover a better You after this. Be strong.


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## tryingpatience (May 7, 2014)

In the case that your H gets to read your post. Have him take a look at this book (Not sure if it was mentioned yet in this thread). Reading other people's stories here would also be helpful. It could start a path to IC or MC.

http://www.amazon.ca/NOT-Just-Friends-Rebuilding-Recovering/dp/0743225503

Also, not sure if you answered this yet but something you should ask yourself is, what are you willing to live with? Would you accept this relationship if there was already a PA? What would happen if he told you that he loves her?


Q tip referenced this same book earlier


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Unsure82 said:


> Firstly, I've read through all the messages posted since I was last online. While I do understand the rather strong, and if I may be so bold, aggressive, nature of some of these responses, I feel that one thing needs to be remembered.
> 
> I am a strong believer that in a relationship, in 99% of the cases, both partner's are responsible for what their relationship looks like. My husband found refuge in a female friend. Yes he has talked to her about me, about the things that weren't ok between us and things that weren't ok in his life. Well, perhaps I wasn't giving him everything he needed. Actually there is no perhaps, this is the case. Our relationship, despite loving each other very much (of this I have no doubt), was very dysfunctional.
> 
> ...


I don't want to belabor the point so I'll just point out the parts in red are not what you would hear from a faithful husband. He hoped she would flatten you for daring to talk with her about their relationship? Really? Should you flatten her for daring to talk to him about yours?


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Unsure82 said:


> I am a strong believer that in a relationship, in 99% of the cases, both partner's are responsible for what their relationship looks like. *Yes. They are.* My husband found refuge in a female friend. Yes he has talked to her about me, about the things that weren't ok between us and things that weren't ok in his life. Well, perhaps I wasn't giving him everything he needed. Actually there is no perhaps, this is the case. Our relationship, despite loving each other very much (of this I have no doubt), was very dysfunctional. *But he needs to be an adult and TALK with you about these things...not his girlfriend.*
> 
> People here are crushing with their words of judgement on him. Well I take on 50% of that judgement. Not only was I not providing everything he needed, but it was I who LET HIM crush boundaries. *Again, if you weren't providing him what he needed, he should have spoke with you about this and told you that if you didn't give him what he needed, he was going to get a girlfriend. Instead, he went and got a girlfriend disguised as his best friend...*
> 
> ...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"If anything I should be thankful she was there to support him through those months." 

Really, wow! Yes, because it is all about him, all the time.

His acting all butt-hurt because he's expected to forsake all others for his wife is a hoot. Guess he is just incapable of making friends of the same gender.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> "If anything I should be thankful she was there to support him through those months."
> 
> Really, wow! Yes, because it is all about him, all the time.
> 
> His acting all butt-hurt because he's expected to forsake all others for his wife is a hoot. Guess he is just incapable of making friends of the same gender.


I lol'd at this because my H literally said:

"It's easier for me to be friends with women than it is for me to be friends with men." 

All I did was laugh at him when he said that. Well, duh. They have something you want!!! 

A few weeks later, I found him cheating WITH that friend he was talking about. Huh. Sound familiar OP? Some of us aren't trying to be harsh. We've been there and done that. If you do have the time, search for OSF's on the forum or read through the CWI section. It's filled with stuff like this.


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## MrsHaf (Jan 13, 2015)

All of the instances you are giving are making your gut instincts kick in. You should ALWAYS trust your instincts. 

But in my personal experience and opinion....I wouldve let most of that slide just like you because Im very trusting. EXCEPT her children calling him dad....not only is that inappropriate , but from a mothers stand point what example is that giving her children? Who is their real father? If they dont have a father then why would a responsible "MOTHER" designate someone who may not be permanent to take that role...Thats a huge RED FLAG. 
The other thing is that he gets defensive and upset when you voice your concerns about her....This is like textbook signs for cheating...His primary concern should be understanding your feelings and doing all in his power to give you a reason to trust him...Trust is earned, whether he admits it or not.....He should want you to feel comfortable over his pride....Especially since you obviously arent saying he cant have her as a friend. Its called boundaries and you need to set them and he should have enough respect to abide them.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> "If anything I should be thankful she was there to support him through those months."
> 
> Really, wow! Yes, because it is all about him, all the time.
> 
> His acting all butt-hurt because he's expected to forsake all others for his wife is a hoot. *Guess he is just incapable of making friends of the same gender*.


I would be careful about this especially during the courtship. someone who is incapable of making friends is going to be a drag on your life. Unsure, that has surely come to pass with you.

fortunately, this "female friend" thing got settled between me and my husband when it was easier to walk away from the relationship. But I did strongly feel, either you need to put more effort into making friendships of the appropriate kind (if you want a girlfriend/ wife) or else, something is wrong with *you*.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> I don't want to belabor the point so I'll just point out the parts in red are not what you would hear from a faithful husband. He hoped she would flatten you for daring to talk with her about their relationship? Really? Should you flatten her for daring to talk to him about yours?


:iagree::iagree:

I would have left based on that answer .

He is brain washing you to accept that woman .

Her kids calling him dad is a big giveaway hint - they probabley slept together already . so kids found them on same bed so that is dad .

You stay . and these two will have sex and laugh at you .

You can try explaining if the situation is reverse and you are the one with a man friend and his kids call you mum and etc etc 

but what is the point of explaining ?????????

if he loves you , he should know that already .

obviously he doesn't treasure you over that "female colleague" so no matter what you say , he wont get it .

just leave .

I cant stand the flatten you part !!!!

the cheater wishing the OW to flatten the wife !!!!

he should get run over by a car ( sorry )


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

N remember don't even take him back if he regrets later .

You can cry in the bathroom , but walk out and face him with your pride and head up high .

same for me . I gave my then bf 24 hours to choose . he asked for 3 days . I said time is up by midnight and left .

he called the next morning to say that he wants me back . and I just told him sorry time is up . I was 25 then and you need 3 days . what about when I am old ?

I cried for 2 weeks and I was over . I surely had my pride intact and head high when I see him next .

anyway , they had a kid and a divorce and I am not sure among the two , who cheated again . not my problem .


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

tripad said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> I would have left based on that answer .
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

U82,

Please look at my 1st post and follow that.

Your Husband just told you cheat speak straight out of the cheater script. When I was reading your last post, I actually slowed down my scrolling to see if I could guess what was going to be said. TBH, I was surprised at how close I was to what he said.

He is protecting his girlfriend - yes - she is a girlfriend

He trying to convince you that you see more than what there is. Unfortunately, there's a lot more than what's visible.

He is willing to back her up, but he is unwilling to back you up. You should take note of that. He *IS* choosing her over you.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Unsure: You seem like an intelligent and truly nice person. I would love it if my wife out as much thought into our relationship as you do and was willing to discuss it. Don't ever change that because you are with a man who keeps things to himself or dismisses your concerns as trivial.

This probably isn't groundbreaking info but I have made female friends during our marriage because there was something missing in mine, Or some personality trait about the female friend that my wife didn't have and I really liked. All of the long term female friend relationships where because there was a possibility that we could be together romantically at some point. Sex was often talked about, we flirted but didn't necessarily act upon it, so don't; think that every male/female relationships leads to sex. Often times one just wants the other to understand them in a way their spouse does not.

These friendships can be very powerful even if they have not had sex because if they had sex, then the tension and yearning is over. They are no longer friends, they are lovers. I grieved hard over long term female friendships that ended because of various reasons. I'm going through that right now, in fact. She decided she needed to take a break and re-evaluate if I have become more important then her spouse.

Some people like me will find love without even consciously trying because we are always trying to fill that void. That may look to some as I'm just a friendly guy but if you look deeper you will see it is more than that.

I wish you the best.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Cobalt said:


> Unsure: You seem like an intelligent and truly nice person. I would love it if my wife out as much thought into our relationship as you do and was willing to discuss it. Don't ever change that because you are with a man who keeps things to himself or dismisses your concerns as trivial.
> 
> This probably isn't groundbreaking info but I have made female friends during our marriage because there was something missing in mine, Or some personality trait about the female friend that my wife didn't have and I really liked. All of the long term female friend relationships where because there was a possibility that we could be together romantically at some point. Sex was often talked about, we flirted but didn't necessarily act upon it, so don't; think that every male/female relationships leads to sex. Often times one just wants the other to understand them in a way their spouse does not.
> 
> ...


well , you are playing with fire and waiting and secretly hoping for the sex to happen .

maybe it has not happen yet bcoz the OW pull back .

what would you say if your wife is doing the same to you right now ?

maybe she is already doing it . woman can sense it very well . the smart one will keep quiet and play the same game and see who gets dump first .


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

tripad said:


> well , you are playing with fire and waiting and secretly hoping for the sex to happen .
> 
> maybe it has not happen yet bcoz the OW pull back .
> 
> ...


hey....whose side are you on? 

Let's not hijack this thread. I'll make my own about this....someday


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Cobalt said:


> hey....whose side are you on?
> 
> Let's not hijack this thread. I'll make my own about this....someday


not anyone's side

just disagree that a spouse should have a relationship , emotional or physical , with the opposite sex . that is what is happening to OP now . not hijacking . stating my belief . you can disagree . we have different principals then .


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

tripad said:


> *not anyone's side*
> 
> just disagree that a spouse should have a relationship , emotional or physical , with the opposite sex . that is what is happening to OP now . not hijacking . stating my belief . you can disagree . we have different principals then .


I'm kidding 

I don't disagree with you. I know it's wrong.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

TRy said:


> This new research has boiled the key to spousal success down to one simple tip. And this tip holds true worldwide, across cultures, ages and incomes: Find a significant other who is also your best friend.


Sorry, that's a load of contemporary, westernized crap.

Plenty of cultures don't adhere to the very romanticized western idea of spouses being your "best friend". Billions of humans have been successfully wed without that particular requirement.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

jaquen said:


> Sorry, that's a load of contemporary, westernized crap.
> 
> Plenty of cultures don't adhere to the very romanticized western idea of spouses being your "best friend". Billions of humans have been successfully wed without that particular requirement.



and people change.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Sorry, that's a load of contemporary, westernized crap.
> 
> Plenty of cultures don't adhere to the very romanticized western idea of spouses being your "best friend". Billions of humans have been successfully wed without that particular requirement.


Really? Can you name one culture that has no-fault divorce on demand without that requirement? You see, my theory is that all those cultures you referred to make it difficult to end the marriage, at least for the wife, so a "successful" marriage in those cultures would amount to one party being satisfied and the other party being stuck with whatever they get out of it.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

My female friend and I are in a big fight right now. I don't suppose I'll get any sympathy in this thread.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> Really? Can you name one culture that has no-fault divorce on demand without that requirement? You see, my theory is that all those cultures you referred to make it difficult to end the marriage, at least for the wife, so a "successful" marriage in those cultures would amount to one party being satisfied and the other party being stuck with whatever they get out of it.


The idea of men and women even being "best friends", spouse or not, is an extremely modern idea.

Let's not take modern, western ideas about marriage and pretend that they are pervasive, universal, objective truths. That's my point. There is no marital rule that says a husband and wife must be "best friends" in order to have a successful marriage, if the idea of what constitutes "success" doesn't include that element.

Obviously if your idea of success equals "must be best friends with my spouse", than failing to do so would be detrimental to your version of marriage. But make no mistake about it, that's not nearly a universal requirement and it never has been. 

Even romantic notions that I have about marriage, such as being soulmates, in love, having continued romance in a marriage, these ideas aren't universal approaches to marriage, not by a long shot.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Cobalt said:


> My female friend and I are in a big fight right now. I don't suppose I'll get any sympathy in this thread.


If she's only a friend, there's no need to fight. 

She's more than a friend. A gf. 

No sex? Maybe there are kisses and squeezes? 

Thats why she fights with you.

I won't fight with a casual man friend. 

You need to read evaluate yourself. you have a wife.


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## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Hijacking this thread?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Unsure82 make sure you are absolutely correct about the nature of their relationship. I'm not one to typically give advice on VARS and other such snooping tools, but this is one of those instances where you might want to go that road to make certain. I say this now because you've taken advice based off what some of us have said in this thread and it's had potentially negative consequences. 

What I am about to say is going to be very unpopular on TAM, because it doesn't fit the unusual narrative. So be it, I'm not here for popularity contests.

I would probably have reacted to my wife the way that your husband did. I have never cheated on my wife, EA or PA. I have never even come close to sleeping with any of my female friends, and this includes attractive women I spent time with long before she and I married. This includes times during our relationship when we were on break and free to be with others. I can't speak for tomorrow, but in the nearly 15 years we've been together cheating with any of my OSF hasn't even remotely been a temptation (but I also don't have any very close OSF that I'm sexually attracted to). 

I can't stand feeling controlled in a relationship and I never react well to anything that remotely looks like an ultimatum. I would like to say that if my wife came to me with real concerns over my relationship with a female friend I'd be open, kind and generous in the discussion. Eventually I would be, but I know myself well enough to know that any accusations or suggestions of impropriety, when I know for a fact that such hasn't happened, would feel like my wife didn't trust me. And that's a HUGE no-no in our relationship, a lack of trust. Blind trust is the only way we chose to live. It's one of the main cornerstones of "us". 

If one of us accused the other of having an affair, and we were wrong, it would be detrimental to our marriage. I could see myself getting extremely defensive and upset, much like your husband did, and it wouldn't have anything to do with trying to protect secrets, or my "girlfriend". It would stem from a very deep hurt that my wife, who knows me so very well, would ever think I'd sleep with a friend behind her back and do it so brazenly and shamelessly. I could potentially have the kind of knee jerk reaction your man did, and unlike what my fellow TAMers are saying, it would not mean that I was having an affair.

I do think, as I said before, that you have a right to your own boundaries. You should stand by them. But before you take any of our advice on here as gospel, if here is any chance the usual TAM advice is wrong and doesn't apply to your man, *make absolutely sure he's cheating*. Get a VAR, try and record them, look for chat logs on facebook or whatever. Make absolutely sure.

And if he's not, go from there. But understand that his not taking into account your feelings is a red flag for relationship problems, cheating or no cheating. You have some deep, potentially relationship destroying issues going on here that exist even if he's not having an affair with his female best friend.


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## Observer (Aug 23, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Unsure82 make sure you are absolutely correct about the nature of their relationship. I'm not one to typically give advice on VARS and other such snooping tools, but this is one of those instances where you might want to go that road to make certain. I say this now because you've taken advice based off what some of us have said in this thread and it's had potentially negative consequences.
> 
> What I am about to say is going to be very unpopular on TAM, because it doesn't fit the unusual narrative. So be it, I'm not here for popularity contests.
> 
> ...


That last part is where I think the focus should be.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Skimmed trough your first post.

He likes her. They have a "thing."

Your gut is spot on. So is the colleague's wife who also could see it from a mile away. 

That uneasy feeling you got is more than likely right.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

tripad said:


> Yes we understand the sadness of an end of a love. Maybe it helps to remind yourself there are better man out there and you will discover a better You after this. Be strong.


As I like to say

"Think of it as a great beginning, not a great ending".


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

tripad said:


> If she's only a friend, there's no need to fight.
> 
> She's more than a friend. A gf.
> 
> ...


She got jealous that I was talking to another co-worker and thought I was flirting.  

We weren't fighting, per se, like yelling or anything.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Stop hijacking this thread, Tripad


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

jaquen said:


> Sorry, that's a load of contemporary, westernized crap.
> 
> Plenty of cultures don't adhere to the very romanticized western idea of spouses being your "best friend". Billions of humans have been successfully wed without that particular requirement.


"No divorce" does not mean "successfully" .

I think this research is talking about "successful " marriage as one that is satisfying to both partners, with their needs met. and that's universal, outside all the rituals and cultural norms.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> "No divorce" does not mean "successfully" .



True.

Which is why I never once suggest that "no divorce" = "success".

Unlike the people who are suggesting that success = "best friends with spouse".

I'm acknowledging that the idea that husbands and wives need to be best friends is nowhere near universal, never has been, and that there are plenty of truly successful marriages that have thrived in societies and cultures with different ideas about marriage. So suggesting that one MUST be best friends with their spouses, because western norms have shifted toward that very romanticized idea, is the height of arrogance.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

intheory said:


> jaquen,
> 
> That's kind of interesting to me that you describe yourself as romantic to the point of believing in soulmates. You seem more pragmatic than that. That's great though. We're all patchwork quilts, to an extent.


I'm romantic (have been since childhood) and spiritual, to an extraordinary extent I'd even say. And yes pragmatic as well. I don't find those mutually exclusive. 

We definitely are all patchwork quilts. More so than most acknowledge or realize.


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

I'll write some more tomorrow, I can't really right now.

I've read the posts here and I thank you all for your input whilst I've been absent here.

Just wanted you guys to know that I am leaving him.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

That's a big decision. Have you confirmed that he is cheating, or just decided that one way or the other, this is too much to handle for you?

Stay strong. Whatever you do, make sure this is what YOU want.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Unsure82 said:


> I'll write some more tomorrow, I can't really right now.
> 
> I've read the posts here and I thank you all for your input whilst I've been absent here.
> 
> Just wanted you guys to know that I am leaving him.


good luck!


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## spunkycat08 (Nov 14, 2013)

Unsure82 said:


> I'll write some more tomorrow, I can't really right now.
> 
> I've read the posts here and I thank you all for your input whilst I've been absent here.
> 
> Just wanted you guys to know that I am leaving him.


It is sad that things turned out this way.

This is a good example of why you **general you** need to be careful regarding opposite sex friendships.


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## Unsure82 (Jan 13, 2015)

Hello again,

No I've not confirmed he was cheating. To be honest I still believe that he doesn't believe he was (so nothing physical, but perhaps emotionally too close and easy to rationalise away), and it's of little importance to me to actually find out. At the end of the day, our relationship was broken beyond repair and in his own words:

- He's not willing to do what is required to make it work. The 'spark' is not there that inspires him to do that.

- We both want to change each other too much, when it's 20% we want or need to change in the other person, it might be possible, but when it's 80%, it becomes something unworkable.

- He admits that he has been a monster to me for years. The way he has treated and spoken to me has been unacceptable, but he cannot take those years back and our relationship has become something warped and (in his opinion) impossible to salvage. I mentioned that before I left him 14 months ago our relationship had become dysfunctional, this is true, he made me to feel... inadequate and to doubt myself in everyway. I realise that this is not normal, and it's *very* complex to explain and not something I think is necassary to expand on here in this post. But those are the reasons I left 14 months ago.

- I (as in me Unsure82) deserve to be better treated and loved in a way which he cannot provide me because he is and never has ben able to provide a complete love.

- He loves me but is not in love with me.

- He believes that in some way, I make him the monster that he has been and he doesn't want to be that person anymore. I asked why he could not be that person with me, his reponse was because he doesn't love me anymore and doesn't have the will to change.

So yes, it is him who said it is over. However (this is an extract from something I wrote to myself in the last few days):

[...] _I know that my decision to return was a controversial one and one that so many people disaproved of, but I knew that it needed to happen. I knew that during those fourteen months I had changed, I had become stronger. I knew which way was up and I knew what I wanted and believed in. For so long I had been told that things would be better if I was stronger and more confident, I needed to know if it was the case. I needed to know if it would change anything and I needed to be sure that I had tried everything in MY power to make things work between us. After all I really do love him, even now, despite everything.

So I went back. And I've been here a month and things have been different.. and now they are over and I am sure of all those things I needed to be. I've said no. I've been outraged when I rightly should be at his controlling and disrespectful behaviour. I have stood toe to toe, stood my ground and I have been sure that I am right in my position. And he has not changed. He does not want to change. He will never change. And I'm ok with that, because he now accepts that he will never make the efforts required to be in a relationship with me - in my opinion a relationship with anyone, but that is neither here nor there. He also has admitted and accepted that how he has treated me is terrible._ [...]

I now have the closure that I needed to move on after nearly a decade. I now know that he knows that I was not the problem. I now know that he is aware of his issues. I now know that I have done everything I can to make things work.

His excuses are his excuses. I honestly feel sad for him, he will never change and I don't think anyone will accept how he had treated me for as long as I did. It makes me sad that he'll grow old alone, but I no longer feel like I am responsible for that.

It's a very complicated and painful story, this last ten years, and I appreciate that it may be difficult to understand from the little I have presented here.

But now I am free.


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## tryingpatience (May 7, 2014)

Unsure82 said:


> I now have the closure that I needed to move on after nearly a decade. I now know that he knows that I was not the problem. I now know that he is aware of his issues. I now know that I have done everything I can to make things work.
> 
> His excuses are his excuses. I honestly feel sad for him, he will never change and I don't think anyone will accept how he had treated me for as long as I did. It makes me sad that he'll grow old alone, but I no longer feel like I am responsible for that.
> 
> ...


I'm happy that you are finally out of limbo. The pain will go away. You said it yourself. You already feel free :smthumbup:


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

"I love you, but I'm not in love with you," is cheater's code for, "I'm having an affair." That is his true reason for ending your marriage (whether he admits it or not) - so just forget about all the other crap he threw your way. He just doesn't have the cajones to tell you the truth. You will be much better without his dead weight in your life. You deserve a new beginning. Best of luck to you!!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

You are one smart and strong woman, Unsure82. I believe you will be better off and happier. I wish I did the same years ago, before things got too complicated.

Good luck, enjoy your freedom.


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