# Women fall out of love with insecure men



## earlyforties

turnera said:


> Women fall out of love with insecure men. In fact, they grow to dislike them. Even distance themselves from them. Maybe what you're experiencing is that.


This is from another thread. Just casually sitting there, in the middle of a post. I'm not disputing it. I see it as wake up call to check in on my secure/insecure levels. 

Yet at the same time it does bother me. What is an 'insecure man' given the varying degrees of insecurity, and which of us fall into this category? I'm guessing this may well be a large percentage of men. I really have no idea and I'm not sure the poster, even with their wealth of experience posting on forums knows the answer to that.

And if I am one of those, does it make me more secure reading this? :surprise:

In comparison, would it be fair to say
"Men fall out of love with women with low self esteem. In fact, they grow to dislike them. Even distance themselves from them"
Maybe I'm just being a bit insecure:wink2:, but me aside, what do others think about this?


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## SecondTime'Round

I think insecure men grow to be controlling and mean as a relationship progresses, so yes, I believe that.

I can't speak to how men feel about insecure women since I'm not a man, but I do think TWO insecure people make for disastrous bedfellows.


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## jld

If you are with an insecure man, or a woman with low self-esteem, and you need their support, of course you are going to lose interest. If you did not rely on them, they could be however and you would be okay with it.


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## 85GT-79FJ40

When I was young I was VERY insecure. I had some great girlfriends early in my life but I didn't trust them for a minute and always suspected they were cheating on me. With one of them it proved to be true and devastated me. A friend of mine is still this way. Successful in his career and good-looking, and really knows how to romance a woman. But he doesn't trust and his marriage ended in divorce and whenever he gets really serious with someone it blows up. He's unhappy. As I was when I was insecure. It takes a lot of faith in who you are and who you're with to really be secure I think. But what do I know my marriage is on the rocks and I didn't see it coming.


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## Amplexor

My wife and I first meet at a large business meeting. She has stated many times that my confidence was one of the main attractions for her. When the marriage hit severe problems a number of years ago (WAW Syndrome and an EA), I lost that confidence. I became very insecure, professionally, personally and in the marriage. It repelled her even further from me and towards her AP. It took me quite some time to regain my confidence but when I did it made a huge difference in our recovery. She was relieved to see it return, for me to express and set my boundaries within the marriage and to move forward to pull it out of the fire. This was especially important to her when the EA died and she was struggling to reconnect with me emotionally. From day one, here at TAM, confidence has been in my signature as one of the requirements to heal a failing marriage.

On the other hand, my wife has always had self esteem issues when it comes to her physical looks. Even when we met and she was a size 5. With kids, age and menopause she had gained considerable weight over the years. I still love her and cherish her, even with these insecurities but will be the first to admit they can have a negative impact on the relationship. It's hard to continue to give complements to a woman who immediately turns it inside out in self mocking way or flat out refuses to accept it.


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## earlyforties

SecondTime'Round said:


> I think insecure men grow to be controlling and mean as a relationship progresses, so yes, I believe that.


I would agree if you're talking about insecure men who continue to be insecure but of course, not those that lose their insecurity.

I think one must be careful not to permanently attach the 'insecure' label to a guy. Like self esteem in a woman, it should be something both sexes want to improve in ourselves and each other. I wonder if sometimes the 'insecure' part that guys have is seen as their fault, their problem alone and for them to fix themselves whereas low self esteem in women is accepted and dealt with in a more sympathetic way.


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## SimplyAmorous

I have not always looked at insecure people as controlling...it depends...

I can't say I look down on someone who lacks confidence in themselves.. I think we ALL do at times, maybe they've had some really rough breaks... been beaten down.. experiences can have a profound effect on us... 

If their way of dealing with it.. is to act out in ways to hurt others.. I simply wouldn't think they are nice people & I'd want to stay away from them, I wouldn't care if it's insecurity or an overly inflated Ego (too much confidence) which can come off as *arrogance*...that's even more obnoxious to deal with!...and I'd never be attracted to that ! 

However if they are Kind.. and just honest, having good intentions.. ... I would have a different view of them, and feel there was something to work with... our confidence can always be built *UP*.. be a friend, walk beside someone.. not too far in front of them.. that might be all some of us need. 

Here is an article on what to look for...3 Ways to Recognize Insecurities  



> Understand what insecurity means in the context of personal growth and well-being.
> 
> A secure person knows who they are, is not threatened by the growth and brilliance of other people, and is comfortable with their place in the world (but can still be ambitious and strive in a healthy way without wanting to drag down others around them). On the other hand, insecurity in the psychological sense refers to not feeling sure about oneself, including not being sure about who they are or what they believe in.
> 
> An insecure person is a vulnerable person, easily shaped by the views, opinions, and ideas of others because they're uncertain about their own values and they're unwilling to question the ideas of other people or stand up for themselves. There are different possibilities behind what makes a person insecure:
> 
> *1.* *A person may have had poor formative experiences that have stunted aspects of their personality.* They may have had chaotic, violent or distressing childhood, adolescent or early adulthood experiences. They may live in fear of someone, have been subjected to very rigid expectations, or have never been allowed to express their feelings.
> 
> *2.** Insecurity can arise as a result of peer pressure or societal expectations. *Feeling as if you're not living up to standards set by media images and stories can create an unhealthy lack of self-like that evolves into insecurity.
> 
> *3*. *Insecurity can occur because of a past experience of failure and through a lack of resilience the insecure person doesn't see the past failure once-off but instead has allowed it to color all future experiences and interactions*.
> 
> *4.* *Lacking a secure emotional basis to both "set down roots and grow wings" creates insecurities:* for people who experience domestic abuse, verbal, physical or sexual abuse, emotional game-playing, transient lifestyles, etc., insecurity can manifest as a defense mechanism that seeks to protect their poorly formed or barely nourished sense of self from being entirely obliterated by the domination of others in a position of power over them.





> Learn to spot insecurities in other people.
> 
> You've surely heard "oh he/she is just jealous" now and then, and may have even said it yourself. It's a common way of brushing off another person's rudeness or unkindness. Yet it is also a very good indicator that you've just met or learned of someone who has an insecurity problem because the expression of jealousy is a classic sign of insecurity.
> 
> When dealing with other people, it's helpful to spot the signs of insecurity because it can reorient how you think about them and bring you to take a more compassionate approach in your dealings with them. Some of the possible signs of insecurity that you may spot in others include:
> 
> * *Selfishness. *The selfish person hides behind a collection of people, awards, possessions, achievements, etc., but never uses these gains to help others or to make the world a better place. Instead, each of these additions to their life acts like a notch on the belt, proving that they are better than others (a typical sign of insecurity) and causing them to be even less involved in the lives of others.
> 
> * *Arrogance. *The more someone tells you they earn X amount, work for X corporation, drive X car, know X people, and are the best at X things, the less secure this person is. Unfortunately, the pride of such a person blinds them to their underlying insecurity and they tend to think that blowing their own horn 24/7 is a positive character trait.
> 
> * *Obsequious, fawning, too-ready-to-please.* This is typical behavior of a people pleaser and it's all about ingratiating themselves with you so that you will like them, always. They find it hard to believe that you can say "no" and still be liked.
> 
> **Sulking*. This is a trait of a highly manipulative insecure person who wants to gain control by throwing a fit of moodiness aimed at causing you to change your approach, attitude, or actions.
> 
> * *Chatterboxes*. Someone unable to stop talking, especially about themselves and their exploits, has an insecurity about not being heard or noticed. If it's pointless chat and relentless, it's likely to be a sign of an insecure person.
> 
> * *Gossiping and back-stabbing.* These actions fairly much speak for themselves; they arise from insecurities precisely because a secure person would never feel the need to spend energies on dragging down other people just to make themselves look better.
> 
> * *Potty-mouthed*. A person who curses constantly may seem strong but if they have to resort to foul language to do all of the expressing for them, then something is clearly amiss and they're hiding a raw insecurity behind a toughened exterior.
> 
> * *Defensiveness.* A person who does not feel safe enough to receive constructive criticism will fight any attempts at being given productive feedback. In this case, you can help such a person by remaining calm and explaining what's great about something they have done, followed by a request for them to do parts of it differently next time.
> 
> * *Materialistic.* For some people, the lack of inner peace and inability to really know who they are is easily swept up into a frenzy of consuming expensive items that tell people they've made it, even if inside they're a total jellyfish. Caring too much about what others think of your worldly goods is an insecure approach to life.
> 
> * *Too competitive or too authoritarian.* If someone behaves as if every interaction is a competition, or every situation is an opportunity to boss around others and show them up, then insecurity sits at the heart of this behavior.
> 
> If the person is in a position of power (such as a boss, coach, club leader, etc.) but they lack the confidence to carry out their role, they may try their best to make others around them look bad, as well as placing mediocre cronies into positions that support them.
> Indeed, not sharing information or letting others have a free rein to blossom under one's tutelage or leadership is a sure sign of insecurity.





> Notice insecurities in your own close relationships.
> 
> The closest relationships can be the hardest to unravel because we're so close to the people we care about that we can often dismiss their unhelpful behavior as part of who they are and let them get away with things. However, it is important to not only notice their insecurities but to try and help them overcome them to lead a more fulfilled life. If you have the strength of mind to notice that their behaviors aren't healthy, then we should also have the grace to try and help them find better ways of approaching life for their own sake.
> 
> *1*.* Jealousy or envy*: A jealous person is insecure and if they are attempting to control your life to appease their jealousy, let them know that this is unacceptable behavior. Tell them that you trust them and that you expect the same level of trust in return. Ask them direct what it is they are so afraid of that they are lead to be so jealous; a frank discussion might help clear the air and provide a foundation on which to slowly show them how to build trust.
> 
> *2*. *Promiscuity*: A person who feels that they need to use their sexuality as a way to garner favor with others is insecure. If someone close to you is really hung up on their sexual attractiveness to others, they're unlikely to be valuing themselves as a whole person and are very vulnerable to being preyed upon by unscrupulous suitors. Help them to understand that their worth is more than their sexuality.
> 
> *3*. *Violent or addictive (self-sedating) tendencies*: Secure people don't behave abusively or get addicted. For your own safety and health, help them to get help immediately for their problem. Be careful of an insecure person who can harm you and/or themselves; they need immediate help. Be compassionate as well as firm – it's very hard to break these types of cycles without professional help or shared intervention.





> Manage your own insecurities.
> 
> Last but definitely not least, once you've identified your own insecurities, deal with them. They are not set in stone and they are not an essential part of you but they are indicators of the parts of your character and thoughts that need working on. If you can't do this alone, seek talking therapy with a non-judgmental person.
> 
> However, it is possible to work on your insecurities alone by keeping a journal of your daily thoughts, asking yourself questions about why certain people and things upset you, and learning to both assert and stand up for yourself. Find your true values and be sure you're not parroting those of someone else, no matter how important that person has been in your life.


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## Anon Pink

earlyforties said:


> I would agree if you're talking about insecure men who continue to be insecure but of course, not those that lose their insecurity.
> 
> I think one must be careful not to permanently attach the 'insecure' label to a guy. *Like self esteem in a woman, it should be something both sexes want to improve in ourselves and each other. *I wonder if sometimes the 'insecure' part that guys have is seen as their fault, their problem alone and for them to fix themselves whereas low self esteem in women is accepted and dealt with in a more sympathetic way.


I've noticed this too and it makes me question why women seem to get a free pass to be insecure, especially about their body. If women get to blame their body image problems on marketing and mass media, does this mean that men also get to blame their insecurity on...James Bond?

I think in marriage and in life, owning our issues striving to be a better person is what we are ALL responsible for. So you have a body image problem? Okay, own it! Now work to rid yourself of this problem, but you don't get to sit back and avoid life because you're insecure about something.

For me, an insecure man would be a minor turn off. As long as he was working toward a more confident inner person, I could deal with insecurity.


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## nirvana

Everything in the world is about women. Women's likes and dislikes. Women this, women that. Valentine's Day is supposed to be about love. Not "man pampering woman" it has turned into. 

Many women have low self esteem which is very very unattractive. My wife, though very beautiful and intelligent, has it. Her sister is not as good looking and not as intelligent, but has street smarts and is a go-getter. She comes across as happier and cooler than my wife.

You know the reason? Sex. Both men and women want it, but women have the power to withhold it and men go crazy. How many times do men withhold it? Not many.

Every human being is insecure about something. We all have failures. Who is really 100% "secure"? If so, he is faking it.


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## *Deidre*

Insecurity sometimes comes in different forms, so you might not even realize you are dating an insecure person right away. Examples would be: someone telling you what to do, what to wear, who to talk to, texting you incessantly after knowing you only a week or two, etc.

When you try to get some of your own space, they will say ''I just love spending time with you, don't you love spending as much time with me?''

Um, I've only been dating you for a week. lol

So, these are some 'signs' of insecurity, that at first might seem flattering if you are first dating someone, but become irritating in a short amount of time. Men (and women) who are healthy minded and confident, don't feel the need to hoard all of your time, at any stage of the relationship...especially, if you're just dating casually to get to know one another. I have dated a few of these types, and made the mistake of being flattered by the attention, but came to find out, they were just grossly insecure men.


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## earlyforties

nirvana said:


> You know the reason? Sex. Both men and women want it, but women have the power to withhold it and men go crazy. How many times do men withhold it? Not many.


Maybe one for another thread:
Any guys withheld it for any other reason than their wife withheld it the previous night? :grin2:


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## nirvana

earlyforties said:


> Maybe one for another thread:
> Any guys withheld it for any other reason than their wife withheld it the previous night? :grin2:


Number of responses: ZERO.

:laugh:


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## Marduk

earlyforties said:


> Maybe one for another thread:
> Any guys withheld it for any other reason than their wife withheld it the previous night? :grin2:


I said no recently. The reason was that she had done something very hurtful the day before, and then decided that it was all better and tried to get me into bed.

I wasn't going for it, which was unusual, and just said that I wasn't in the headspace at that minute but I appreciated her trying and that I was still attracted to her.

I was basically the apocalypse. 

What was interesting was we got to have a great conversation about what it's like to be rejected for sex because it had never happened to her before, but it happens to me probably hundreds of times a year.


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## Lionelhutz

As others have noted it is a mistake is to assume there is a single response to insecurity in either men or women. Aggression and controlling may be a response. So may avoidance and passivity.


What I see with so many couple is the negative self-reinforcing loop. The response to insecurity breeding negativity and then further insecurity.


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## TheTruthHurts

I think there's a difference between vulnerability and insecurity.

For the bulk of our 30+ years I guess I've been rock solid - feet firmly planted, firm boundaries, direct, an ok listener, fair, etc. It's just my nature and I never thought of it as a "thing" or orientation.

Over the past 3-5 years, though, I've allowed myself to be vulnerable. I've tried to work on things... we all have habits and behaviors and methods of communication that could be improved. Physical improvements too.

I've also focused on understanding my needs better, reading HNHN, codependent no more, etc. trying to do a better job of understanding my emotions and needs. Also specifically identifying where my marriage - W - could do a better job. I've never been a needy guy - but things change and now I do in fact have needs that aren't being met

So I've expressed them. My wife HATES it - it messes with her image of me. But the fact is she has taken things for granted - and doesn't want the status quo to change because change is hard and challenges it her - particularly sexually.

So it's been an interesting ride. I like the new me - a little less brutish and a little more aware. I have needs and I'll express them (still 95% old me after all) and if her choice NOT to meet them results in me being actually "hurt" - OMG! What a concept! Guess what? I'll actually express that too - not passive aggressively - but just saying it.

So things are going ok at a snails pace, but ignoring the new me hasn't worked so now both of us working on us is happening. It's all good.

So I would offer that it's all relative. A dominant guy can get soft and a timid guy can grow a pair. Stereotypes are fun to talk about, but the reality is that we are enriched in our relationships when our partner is nuanced and has depth of character.

Any woman who doesn't help her man build his confidence - but instead "gets turned off" by his insecurities - isn't really the type of woman another guy should get involved with IMO. Long term relationships mean we have to support each other and help each other grow.


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## MarriedDude

SecondTime'Round said:


> I think insecure men grow to be controlling and mean as a relationship progresses, so yes, I believe that.
> 
> I can't speak to how men feel about insecure women since I'm not a man, but I do think TWO insecure people make for disastrous bedfellows.


The word of the day is now "Bedfellows"

Awesome


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## MJJEAN

nirvana said:


> very human being is insecure about something. We all have failures. Who is really 100% "secure"? If so, he is faking it.


I don't believe anyone makes it out of childhood unscathed, so I totally agree with you. We all have our quirks, including insecurities. Te problem comes in when people allow those insecurities to interfere with their ability to have something resembling a sane relationship.



Lionelhutz said:


> As others have noted it is a mistake is to assume there is a single response to insecurity in either men or women. Aggression and controlling may be a response. So may avoidance and passivity.


Aggression and controlling is unattractive and off putting. So are avoidance and passivity. So, either way the person swings, letting insecurity cause unattractive behaviors can cause a partner to fall out of love.



nirvana said:


> You know the reason? Sex. Both men and women want it, but women have the power to withhold it and men go crazy. How many times do men withhold it? Not many.





earlyforties said:


> Maybe one for another thread:
> Any guys withheld it for any other reason than their wife withheld it the previous night? :grin2:


Yup. My DH has turned me down because I said some things that upset him, hurt his feelings, and he didn't feel open enough with me to want sex. 

I thought my explanation of what I meant vs what he heard was enough to take away the hurt and upset, but I was wrong. It was another day before he wanted sex again.

It doesn't happen often, but it has happened a few times. 




marduk said:


> I said no recently. The reason was that she had done something very hurtful the day before, and then decided that it was all better and tried to get me into bed.
> 
> I wasn't going for it, which was unusual, and just said that I wasn't in the headspace at that minute but I appreciated her trying and that I was still attracted to her.
> 
> I was basically the apocalypse.
> 
> What was interesting was we got to have a great conversation about what it's like to be rejected for sex because it had never happened to her before, but it happens to me probably hundreds of times a year.


Oh, yeah, when DH first turned me down it was pretty much the apocalypse here, too. I rarely turn down DH...very rarely. And I hadn't been turned down pretty much ever. So, DH turning me down because I hurt his feelings was an incredible shock to me. 

I would have had an easier time believing aliens landed on the White House lawn than that I'd get turned down by a man who loves and desires me over a hurt I thought we dealt with and moved on from.

He kinda laughed at me. He said that as much as he got rejected by women for years, he couldn't quite feel sorry for me getting rejected here and there for being a jerk. Gotta admit, the man had a point.


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## Wolf1974

It kinda depends. I was called insecure for not being ok with my X wife having an affair. If that's the case I will wear that title with honor. Sometimes insecure is a title thrown on some as a way to discredit feelings on a matter. I think much of that comes from our own experiences.


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## Ikaika

Insecurity can be the nature of being human. We are tribal and always need assurance of our acceptance. Thus anyone who claims no insecurity and willing to ride all parts of their life solo, I question their sense of realty. However, being insecure in a relationship that turns pathological (trying to overly please at one end or nasty and controlling at the other) is definitely not attractive. But, this is not just about men falling out of love with the pathologically insecure man the reverse is also true. 

The only downside, fights will arise, from two adults not "insecure", but as adults compromises can be made. Upside, passion. At least this has been my experience after 21+ years. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SimplyAmorous

intheory said:


> I agree with all of the above.
> 
> *If you call someone "insecure", then it's their problem - you don't have to look at what you might be doing to contribute to those feelings. I'm referring to marital relationships especially; but it does apply to all human relationships, if you think about it.*


All of those posts resonated with me also @intheory .. 

I find it really off putting when others jump on the ol' "He's so insecure" bandwagon here.. just cause someone has a difference of opinion/ values/ viewpoint over theirs.... I just see it as a way to shut another down...to devalue their experience...

None of us help another *UP* by throwing darts at them.. there is another way.. or just remove yourself...let someone more understanding get in the trenches with them -to see where they are coming from.... few people take the time, or care THAT much. 

When I 1st met my husband... due to the previous guy I had a crush on ...how he wanted my best friend over me  ... I was worried when he met her.. he might want her too!... (I had an insecurity there, it's normal darn it!)...

When I opened up about this (too honest for my own good)... he laughed at me.. and assured me this never entered his mind..

I'm with Adele on this one >> 


pictures upload


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## SimplyAmorous

Beings this is an insecurity thread..if one is trying to make some new habits... I whole-heartily agree with this article and list.. for any man, or woman... 

Six things emotionally secure people do more than others - NaturalNews.com

Certain habits, done faithfully, lead directly to greater emotional security and a healthier sense of self. If you want greater emotional security - higher self-esteem, more maturity, and a calmer inner life, then do what emotionally secure people do.

Here are 6 things that emotionally secure people tend to do.



> *1.* Apologize
> 
> Many people fear apologizing because it may create a perception of weakness. Fearing a hit to the ego, people hold onto a false sense of security. Apologizing actually leads to greater empathy, connection, fairness - and has even settled lawsuits.
> 
> Would you rather have a big (if fragile) ego or be connected to someone? Studies show that when you sincerely apologize, you receive empathy. This empathy is a powerful connection to another person.
> 
> Empathy is a sign of maturity and emotional security. One famous author and lecturer put it this way:
> 
> To the immature, other people are not real.
> 
> Immature people cannot empathize with others. They are too caught up in themselves and typically do not connect with the humanity of others. Their sense of self (or ego) is all an extremely immature person can fathom.
> 
> Since nobody is capable of perfection, it seems doubly important to learn to apologize, admit when you are wrong, and confess your limitations.
> 
> *2*. Go 'Second Position'
> 
> In NLP, we call it second position. It refers to your ability to put yourself in someone else's 'perceptual position.' In other words, how well can you identify with what someone else is thinking or feeling?
> 
> If you cannot do this, emotional insecurity will rule your life. We are social creatures. If you cannot identify with others, you are destined to feel isolated and alone.
> 
> A lot of us consider someone else's point of view haphazardly, only when it randomly occurs to us. We encourage our NLP students to immerse themselves in others' point of view on purpose. Learning to sort out three critical perceptual positions (self, other, observer) gives you the tools to navigate almost any disagreement and remain socially connected.
> 
> *3. *Accept failure
> 
> Emotionally secure people can recognize and accept failure. This may be why two top prep schools in England teach failure as part of their intended curriculum. At Oxford Prep School for Girls, the administration actually created tests that were impossible to achieve 100%. Intentionally setting their students up for failure gave teachers the opportunity to mentor students on resiliency.
> 
> Wimbledon High School follows suit by running a 'failure week' to help nurture resilience.
> 
> Is all this necessary? According to Eddy Newton, Chairman of the Independent Association of Prep Schools, losing - or at least, losing gracefully - is a vital skill for students to learn. "You are going to be going for interviews and not be offered a job, so you are going to have to learn to come second or lower than second," she said.
> 
> *4.* Handle self-criticism
> 
> Self-criticism is a universal stumbling block. It may be the most common psychological hang up in existence. The inner critic is pervasive and no one is immune. Constant self-criticism (even if it involves replaying parental criticism over and over) creates a ton of insecurity.
> 
> Emotionally secure people handle their inner critic and do not allow it to get the best of them. There are several ways to do this. You can befriend your inner critic by listening to it and extracting the value behind the criticism. You can train your mind to be still. You can tune into the present moment (the external world) where there is calm and quiet.
> 
> You can move beyond self-criticism. Emotional security lies on the other side of it.
> 
> *5*. Step back
> 
> Taking a more objective viewpoint on your own life gives you access to the big picture. Emotionally immature people tend to be more impulsive and make poor decisions, which only create more problems to feel insecure about.
> 
> One solution is to step back and consider the big picture before making decisions.
> 
> According to University of Michigan psychologist Ethan Kross, "We aren't very good at trying to analyze our feelings to make ourselves feel better. It's an invaluable human ability to think about what we do, but reviewing our mistakes over and over, re-experiencing the same negative emotions we felt the first time around, tends to keep us stuck in negativity. It can be very helpful to take a sort of mental time-out, to sit back and try to review the situation from a distance."
> 
> Kross completed a very interesting study that suggested people who step back and view their problems from a distance experience less depression.
> 
> *6.* Focus on happiness, not being right
> 
> That age-old question applies here: Would you rather be right or be happy?
> 
> Imagine: you get to be right all the time, but you are totally miserable. Or, you get to be wrong much of the time, but totally happy and content with your life. Which do you choose?
> 
> Most people choose to be right and miserable. In fact, one ridiculous study even claimed that it is better to be right than to be happy. In the study, a husband decided to agree with his wife, no matter what, for a period of time. In the end, he became so miserable that he had to end the study. Therefore, researchers began to conclude that being right may be preferable to being happy.
> 
> This study just proves that blind agreement even when you disagree is makes you miserable. Duh.
> 
> The key is not to blindly agree and be wrong for no reason. The point is to be open to when you are, in fact, wrong and freely admit it. When you legitimately disagree, then stick to your guns. Of course, if you legitimately believe you are right all the time, then you need more help than this article can offer.


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## Celes

This forum has made me so grateful for my husband. A relationship should be built on trust. Otherwise it will collapse. He has never been jealous, never tried to forbid me from anything, never asked about exes or anything like that. He trusts me because I act trustworthy and vice versa. Why be with someone you don't trust and worry so much over? If you're with a person who causes you to worry so much, sounds like you shouldn't be with them.

PS. Insecurity in women is equally unattractive IMO


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## jdawg2015

That really sums it up TTH.

Couples that tend to complement each other is more often what works.

If a guy is feeling insecure as I interpret the OPs intended meaning, it means there is a power struggle and they are not equals. 



TheTruthHurts said:


> So I would offer that it's all relative. A dominant guy can get soft and a timid guy can grow a pair. Stereotypes are fun to talk about, but the reality is that we are enriched in our relationships when our partner is nuanced and has depth of character.
> 
> Any woman who doesn't help her man build his confidence - but instead "gets turned off" by his insecurities - isn't really the type of woman another guy should get involved with IMO. Long term relationships mean we have to support each other and help each other grow.


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## Redactus

SimplyAmorous said:


> Here are 6 things that emotionally secure people tend to do.


1."Apologize" - Only do this if you did something wrong...otherwise no.

2. "Go Second Position" This only makes sense if the other person's perspective is rational or sensible...otherwise nonsense cannot usually be remedied by sense.

3. "Accept Failure" - Agreed, as long as you learn from your mistakes.

4. "Handle Self-Criticism" - True, you know yourself best and should be the one to pull your own head out of your......

5. "Step Back" - Yup, always look before you leap...think before you speak....

6. "Focus on Happiness, not being right" - Well, being right makes me happy so I will focus on being right....If I am wrong, see #3.


----------



## jdawg2015

Then why are you here? Not being a smart ass, but your post comes off a smug to be honest. How old are you? 

Many of use came to TAM because of issues either by one or both parties.

I was with my exW a long time and can say many of the same things about her regarding no trust/jealousy/past issues. There were no exes of concern, or previous affairs, etc that would have to even have been discussed.

However, dating in my 40s there is much more past by each party that has to be sorted through because character and decision making is important to me.

If a woman has been married multiple times, I want to know why and how she made those choices. These aren't the same conversations I would have needed to have back when I was dating and met my exW. 

My point? Asking about the past is not a sign of insecurity. In fact, I personally have the spine to ask things that are important to me and will gladly drop a woman from consideration based on what I find acceptable. 




Celes said:


> This forum has made me so grateful for my husband. A relationship should be built on trust. Otherwise it will collapse. He has never been jealous, never tried to forbid me from anything, never asked about exes or anything like that. He trusts me because I act trustworthy and vice versa. Why be with someone you don't trust and worry so much over? If you're with a person who causes you to worry so much, sounds like you shouldn't be with them.
> 
> PS. Insecurity in women is equally unattractive IMO


----------



## Celes

jdawg2015 said:


> Then why are you here? Not being a smart ass, but your post comes off a smug to be honest. How old are you?
> 
> Many of use came to TAM because of issues either by one or both parties.
> 
> I was with my exW a long time and can say many of the same things about her regarding no trust/jealousy/past issues. There were no exes of concern, or previous affairs, etc that would have to even have been discussed.
> 
> However, dating in my 40s there is much more past by each party that has to be sorted through because character and decision making is important to me.
> 
> If a woman has been married multiple times, I want to know why and how she made those choices. These aren't the same conversations I would have needed to have back when I was dating and met my exW.
> 
> My point? Asking about the past is not a sign of insecurity. In fact, I personally have the spine to ask things that are important to me and will gladly drop a woman from consideration based on what I find acceptable.


Is it some kind of requirement to be in a marriage with issues to post on this forum? Are happily married people not allowed to give their perspective? 

My comment about asking about exes wasn't about asking about relationship history. That's definitely reasonable to me and we both asked each other those type of questions. Why did those relationships end, etc. 

I'm talking about asking if I talk to exes, checking my FB, asking about past sexual stuff and being generally paranoid. Keep in mind, I don't talk to any of my exes, so someone coming at me with those questions would just turn me off.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Simmer down you two 

Seriously both have valid perspectives, but I do believe we don't know what we have or are missing until we are challenged in life.

Jdawg has very valid points for anyone with a few gray hairs.

I've been fortunate in that I have the same relationship that I've had for 30+ years, which I began as a virgin. Both of us were virgins actually.

So we missed out on much, but benefitted in ways others haven't in terms of dealing with the past. No comparisons - we only have each other in the whole world - neither has had others and neither wants others...

I personally would have issues with a woman's sexual past because I didn't have one... as would my W. That doesn't make us wrong either..., just inexperienced and perhaps insecure. 

Nice transition to the topic at hand, no?

So, Celes, if my W were hit by a bus tomorrow, and I met a woman 3 years later and was apprehensive about her sexual past, and therefore was insecure and asked, would I be wrong?


----------



## jdawg2015

Condensing people are also a turn off.

Because your post is absent ANY details behind what someone would are would not do something comes across as high and mighty. There are plenty of times where advice to snoop is called for. Other times it's someone being paranoid. You threw out a global statement that its something you and your husband would never do.... Until that day comes and you have a spouse/SO that breaks trust and you have no other way to get the truth. 

The fact that you immediately become incensed when someone challenges your view also tells me you have anger issues. You can't handle it. This is discussion. If I'm going to read some of your posts I want to know some information so I know where you're perspective comes from. To be frank, you come off as very idyllic. So I want to know why you are on TAM. Again, how old are you? 

Let me spell it out for you. Without any further information from you, your posts have zero credibility to me. 



Celes said:


> Is it some kind of requirement to be in a marriage with issues to post on this forum? Are happily married people not allowed to give their perspective?
> 
> My comment about asking about exes wasn't about asking about relationship history. That's definitely reasonable to me and we both asked each other those type of questions. Why did those relationships end, etc.
> 
> I'm talking about asking if I talk to exes, checking my FB, asking about past sexual stuff and being generally paranoid. Keep in mind, I don't talk to any of my exes, so someone coming at me with those questions would just turn me off.


----------



## Celes

TheTruthHurts said:


> Simmer down you two
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously both have valid perspectives, but I do believe we don't know what we have or are missing until we are challenged in life.
> 
> Jdawg has very valid points for anyone with a few gray hairs.
> 
> I've been fortunate in that I have the same relationship that I've had for 30+ years, which I began as a virgin. Both of us were virgins actually.
> 
> So we missed out on much, but benefitted in ways others haven't in terms of dealing with the past. No comparisons - we only have each other in the whole world - neither has had others and neither wants others...
> 
> I personally would have issues with a woman's sexual past because I didn't have one... as would my W. That doesn't make us wrong either..., just inexperienced and perhaps insecure.
> 
> Nice transition to the topic at hand, no?
> 
> So, Celes, if my W were hit by a bus tomorrow, and I met a woman 3 years later and was apprehensive about her sexual past, and therefore was insecure and asked, would I be wrong?


If sexual history is that big of a deal to you, I wouldn't call you wrong for wanting a woman with a similar line of thinking. And a woman wouldn't be wrong by being turned off by your insecurity. You'd be incompatible. 

I personally could care less about sexual history, and I've only been with one man before I married my husband. He's been with tons of women before me. He's quite a bit older than me. I just don't care because he's with me now. He chose to build his life with me. 

If I somehow ended up single again and someone started questioning my sexual past, I wouldn't keep seeing them. And I don't even have much of a past lol. He wouldn't be wrong and I wouldn't be wrong, just wrong for each other, because I believe sex is natural and should be celebrated if it's between 2 consenting adults.


----------



## jdawg2015

TTH, do a quick look at her posts with others (what I just did) on TAM.

She gets into it with everyone apparently. Seems intentional. Confrontation on everything. 

Wish I had looked earlier instead of wasting time replying to her.




TheTruthHurts said:


> Simmer down you two
> 
> Seriously both have valid perspectives, but I do believe we don't know what we have or are missing until we are challenged in life.
> 
> Jdawg has very valid points for anyone with a few gray hairs.
> 
> I've been fortunate in that I have the same relationship that I've had for 30+ years, which I began as a virgin. Both of us were virgins actually.
> 
> So we missed out on much, but benefitted in ways others haven't in terms of dealing with the past. No comparisons - we only have each other in the whole world - neither has had others and neither wants others...
> 
> I personally would have issues with a woman's sexual past because I didn't have one... as would my W. That doesn't make us wrong either..., just inexperienced and perhaps insecure.
> 
> Nice transition to the topic at hand, no?
> 
> So, Celes, if my W were hit by a bus tomorrow, and I met a woman 3 years later and was apprehensive about her sexual past, and therefore was insecure and asked, would I be wrong?


----------



## Celes

jdawg2015 said:


> Condensing people are also a turn off.
> 
> Because your post is absent ANY details behind what someone would are would not do something comes across as high and mighty. There are plenty of times where advice to snoop is called for. Other times it's someone being paranoid. You threw out a global statement that its something you and your husband would never do.... Until that day comes and you have a spouse/SO that breaks trust and you have no other way to get the truth.
> 
> The fact that you immediately become incensed when someone challenges your view also tells me you have anger issues. You can't handle it. This is discussion. If I'm going to read some of your posts I want to know some information so I know where you're perspective comes from. To be frank, you come off as very idyllic. So I want to know why you are on TAM. Again, how old are you?
> 
> Let me spell it out for you. Without any further information from you, your posts have zero credibility to me.


Oh noes, my posts have zero credibility to you! LOL what makes you think I care dude? Clearly you have a bone to pick with me since I pointed out how controlling you are in your other thread. 

And here you are, trying to control my posts. I don't need to explain to you why I'm here. I don't need to give you my age. I don't need to give you any more information than I choose to. If you don't like my posts, you're free to ignore them.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Yes I agree - arguing for arguments sake. Not a deep thinker obviously.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Celes - respectfully I'd suggest you post your own opinions rather than reacting to everyone else's opinions.

This is an anonymous forum - you should feel free to post your own thoughts, and also not be threatened by the thoughts of others.


----------



## Celes

TheTruthHurts said:


> Celes - respectfully I'd suggest you post your own opinions rather than reacting to everyone else's opinions.
> 
> This is an anonymous forum - you should feel free to post your own thoughts, and also not be threatened by the thoughts of others.


What are you talking about? I did post my own opinion. Jdawg is the one reacting to it. As for your other post, it seems to be a theme on this board to insult anyone who disagrees with them. Not sure how I'm arguing for arguments sake but ok. I answered your question honestly. You just didn't like my answer.


----------



## jdawg2015

LOL. I'm a pretty reserved guy and I'll let others go see the posts you make and get into it with everyone. 

I'm too lazy to cut and paste all the links to some of your "gems".

Buyer beware.




Celes said:


> Oh noes, my posts have zero credibility to you! LOL what makes you think I care dude? Clearly you have a bone to pick with me since I pointed out how controlling you are in your other thread.
> 
> And here you are, trying to control my posts. I don't need to explain to you why I'm here. I don't need to give you my age. I don't need to give you any more information than I choose to. If you don't like my posts, you're free to ignore them.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Celes said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Celes - respectfully I'd suggest you post your own opinions rather than reacting to everyone else's opinions.
> 
> This is an anonymous forum - you should feel free to post your own thoughts, and also not be threatened by the thoughts of others.
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about? I did post my own opinion. Jdawg is the one reacting to it. As for your other post, it seems to be a theme on this board to insult anyone who disagrees with them. Not sure how I'm arguing for arguments sake but ok. I answered your question honestly. You just didn't like my answer.
Click to expand...

Ok clearly you're right and not reactionary.


----------



## Celes

TheTruthHurts said:


> Ok clearly you're right and not reactionary.


Nah, I just stand up for myself. Jdawg flipped out on me just for correcting him in a thread. Then he came at me here because he has a bone to pick. My post to you was in no way reactionary or confrontational. You asked me a question, I answered. I'm not sure why you took offense to my post, there wasn't any intent to offend. I don't have any real issue at all within you really, I respect your posts in general.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Redactus said:


> 1.*"Apologize"* - Only do this if you did something wrong...otherwise no.
> 
> 2. "Go Second Position" This only makes sense if the other person's perspective is rational or sensible...otherwise nonsense cannot usually be remedied by sense.
> 
> 3. "Accept Failure" - Agreed, as long as you learn from your mistakes.
> 
> 4. "Handle Self-Criticism" - True, you know yourself best and should be the one to pull your own head out of your......
> 
> 5. "Step Back" - Yup, always look before you leap...think before you speak....
> 
> 6. "Focus on Happiness, not being right" - Well, being right makes me happy so I will focus on being right....If I am wrong, see #3.


I agree with all of this.. it's basically common sense.. but come on....we've all met people who are so dang stubborn they can NOT apologize... I have apologized many a times in my life .. because I can recognize when I f*** up... (my conscience feels bad!) Oh it happens.. I have actually been quite vulnerable in some of my apologies -but I feel it helped ME....even if nothing came from it.. it was OK.. There was peace there. 

My husband is the same way...and it's something I greatly appreciate in a man.... in a friend.. in anyone.. 

Doormat behavior is very unattractive... this is true.. Because it's like you can't tell if someone is sucking up to you because they are desperate, or just want something in return...how would you know what they REALLY stand for ... 

If I get too demanding with my husband / a little pushy (it happens on occasion).... what he will do is make fun of me.. he doesn't cower or sulk.. then he gets me laughing at myself!







... it's something that just makes me love him more so...how he handles me... he may even say







.. this is his way of saying *>>* "Look woman, you are pushing it now"... I am self aware enough to know .. I need to shut up ... and re-adjust myself....as I don't want to come off like that.. because I do care how he feels.. he's been very good to me. 

@TheTruthHurts said: 


> *Both of us were virgins actually.
> 
> So we missed out on much, but benefitted in ways others haven't in terms of dealing with the past. No comparisons - we only have each other in the whole world - neither has had others and neither wants others*...


 This is myself & husband too.. we met in our teens.. for us, it's something very special.. If I lost him tomorrow... I don't feel I would have any insecurities about Sex... I LOVE everything about sex / intimacy... Pleasing my man... Give it to [email protected]#

BUT BUT BUT... I would care a great deal about any new prospect's lifestyle (relationship history is a part of that)...how a new man views intimacy, what this means to him.. is he a variety seeking Bachelor ...or is he hoping, wanting something authentic.. real.. does he share a similar vision as me -when it comes to intimacy / love / being "coupled". 

I believe in taking time.. getting to know someone emotionally before you jump into bed.. If they wouldn't appreciate this about me.. I'd have to walk away...Might be hard.. especially if it kept happening.. I don't know... the dating world sounds awfully depressing really..


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Yes simply amorous I think you put that well. Another poster misunderstood my post and for some reason assumed I had some sort of emotional response to hers - very strange indeed. 

In fact, you put a finer point on the process I would go through in evaluating a potential mate's sexual past - it has to do with assessing their views toward relationships and intimacy - and has very little to do with sex per se.

Someone who has had several partners over a short period of time either attaches and detaches more easily than I would prefer or doesn't attach at all. I've had ****ty friends and they're fun and good guys, but I would never let a sister or friend near them . By the same token, a girl I could easily bang might be fun but I wouldn't date her - just have sex with her. If she was more serious about her relationships than a quick fvck, but still had lots of partners, then I'd question her ability to pick a good guy, or her level of commitment when things get tough.

If she had significant fluctuations in her sexuality that would be interesting to understand as well. Like maybe a BDSM past but only with certain partners. Did she explore for a particular partner but not like it? Did she like it but not want to do that with other partners? What's going on with that and could I expect someone to explore with me or someone who has firm ideas about what they like and is not interested in being flexible about it with me? 

So understanding a potential partners sexual past is really key to understanding how that person behaves in a relationship.

I don't see any problem in making that disclosure a requirement in the vetting process.

Btw my one-woman past would equally be something I suspect a lot of women would evaluate because it is outside the norm.

I realize this is off topic but it does relate to how we process the acts / responses of others and our interpretation of the reasons and thought processes behind them.


----------



## IIJokerII

Insecurity is a byproduct of cause and effect, reactive and active behavior and experiences that effect both long term and short term behavior and depending in how large the impact or severe the distrust is depends solely on the event(s) themselves. 

Insecurity in the face of an obvious abstract where something dangerous or questionable is a reaction to something they consider detrimental, no matter how minor. To those who would suggest that insecurity is unattractive in the face of an affair is a cop out.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

TheTruthHurts said:


> * By the same token, a girl I could easily bang might be fun but I wouldn't date her - just have sex with her. *


 My husband would NEVER do this.. he would feel it is WRONG... We've talked about these things.. he would not at all be interested in banging a woman -then leaving her... he's a true gentleman that way.. I don't think he is the norm by any means in this world we live.. but he is in his early 50's now. 

Take a moment & read the various Sexual views laid out.. a thread I did after reading a book on this subject... 

 What are your SEXUAL views - have they changed over the years?

We both share the Romantic view ...


> *3. ** Romantic View *~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "save yourself for the one, your beloved"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL]
> 
> Sex should be reserved for those who are deeply in love with the strings of emotional attachment/commitment. Loveless sex is not appropriate, People should be sexually faithful as long as love lasts. Those who hold the romantic view often talk in terms of sex as sacred, as a Gift to be preserved & given to someone of profound significance.
> 
> Romantic view holds that sex should be connected with a thirst for deep psychological & bodily knowledge, Mutually reciprocated gift-giving & intimacy are it's purpose.
> 
> The feeling of being in love is a feeling that one’s beloved is an irreplaceable soul mate.
> 
> Complications arise, however, when romantic feelings do not last or when someone who has made a commitment to sexual exclusivity finds himself or herself in love with someone else.
> 
> The romantic view emphasizes interpersonal intimacy, but sees the duration of commitment as contingent. Commitment lasts for as long as romantic love lasts. But commitment is a must. A one-time encounter with a stranger may be consensual -but it would not be appropriate for those who hold the Romantic view.





TheTruthHurts said:


> Btw my one-woman past would equally be something I suspect a lot of women would evaluate because it is outside the norm.


 Well me personally.. I know what I go for...it's more the sensitive serious committed family types .. and a man whose been a stable loving companion with 1 woman FOR LIFE -if I heard THAT... My eyes would light up and think.. WOW ...can I find me one of those [email protected]#... 

The great majority are TAKEN !

I find this a beautiful article ... For the BEST SEX EVER Emotional Intimacy is key..here's why!

There is nothing insecure about any of this.. but true.. people are WIRED differently...what I want & crave may not be what another wants, or CARES about..... they get more of a HIGH over sexual variety....

A growing segment of our society is EMBRACING *NON-monogamy lifestyles*... 

LIKE should be with LIKE... though it makes sense to me, the sea of singles we have today... roaming but can't seem to find Love (Trust is very hard to come by)....a lifestyle of this sort of hooking up has it's challenges ...many have become conditioned >> NO vulnerability ! Pushing their emotions down, strangle them!...the rule of the game is to NOT FALL -to avoid getting hurt... so many lost opportunities... chasing the next erotic "experience" thinking it will fill that void. 

It just wouldn't for me, maybe I need A LOT but I'm wanting to give A lot too. 

It's important to KNOW THYSELF....and hang on to that.


----------



## nirvana

TheTruthHurts said:


> I think there's a difference between vulnerability and insecurity.
> 
> For the bulk of our 30+ years I guess I've been rock solid - feet firmly planted, firm boundaries, direct, an ok listener, fair, etc. It's just my nature and I never thought of it as a "thing" or orientation.
> 
> Over the past 3-5 years, though, I've allowed myself to be vulnerable. I've tried to work on things... we all have habits and behaviors and methods of communication that could be improved. Physical improvements too.
> 
> I've also focused on understanding my needs better, reading HNHN, codependent no more, etc. trying to do a better job of understanding my emotions and needs. Also specifically identifying where my marriage - W - could do a better job. I've never been a needy guy - but things change and now I do in fact have needs that aren't being met
> 
> So I've expressed them. My wife HATES it - it messes with her image of me. But the fact is she has taken things for granted - and doesn't want the status quo to change because change is hard and challenges it her - particularly sexually.
> 
> So it's been an interesting ride. I like the new me - a little less brutish and a little more aware. I have needs and I'll express them (still 95% old me after all) and if her choice NOT to meet them results in me being actually "hurt" - OMG! What a concept! Guess what? I'll actually express that too - not passive aggressively - but just saying it.
> 
> So things are going ok at a snails pace, but ignoring the new me hasn't worked so now both of us working on us is happening. It's all good.
> 
> So I would offer that it's all relative. A dominant guy can get soft and a timid guy can grow a pair. Stereotypes are fun to talk about, but the reality is that we are enriched in our relationships when our partner is nuanced and has depth of character.
> 
> Any woman who doesn't help her man build his confidence - but instead "gets turned off" by his insecurities - isn't really the type of woman another guy should get involved with IMO. Long term relationships mean we have to support each other and help each other grow.


Well said. Most women today in my opinion are all about "impress me!" all the time. They are the judges and men are being judged. If you turn the tables or even object, you are the misogynist.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Simply amorous you keyed in on a single phrase then misunderstood it.

You said your husband would NEVER have sex with a woman then just leave her.

That wasn't the scenario I painted.

The scenario I painted was a woman who didn't stick around to even be left behind. Those people do exist you realize - those who have ONS and see no problem with them.

I've never had that and am saying I don't judge those who do. Many people stay single into their late 20's and late 30's and many don't have LTR's. It's just a fact. Those people live the life they want.

If in some magical world where I was no longer married, and I was living in that environment, I would NOT want to try to start a committed relationship with someone who wanted a ONS. Pretty simple actually.

I don't have the same morality overhang that you have and accept that I was just very lucky to have only experienced love and sex in combination. Early in our relationship I'm sure it was infatuation and sex - but it was never just sex.

So as I talk with my kids who are leaving the nest for college soon, I'll be talking about sexual comparability and sex in relationships. We've talked about sex for a long time now - and I don't want then to mix sex and shame, but at the same time consider respect to be part of it.


----------



## optimalprimus

SimplyAmorous said:


> Beings this is an insecurity thread..if one is trying to make some new habits... I whole-heartily agree with this article and list.. for any man, or woman...
> 
> Six things emotionally secure people do more than others - NaturalNews.com
> 
> Certain habits, done faithfully, lead directly to greater emotional security and a healthier sense of self. If you want greater emotional security - higher self-esteem, more maturity, and a calmer inner life, then do what emotionally secure people do.
> 
> Here are 6 things that emotionally secure people tend to do.


Like like like! I honestly don't know how you find and synthesise this stuff SA, especially in a way that appears so effortless. But I'm glad that you do.

I feel like I have quite a lot of insecurities, but have like many found ways to guard myself from a lot of their negative aspects.

A person without insecurities sounds like a fiction or possibly even a sociopath!

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


----------



## Adelais

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have not always looked at insecure people as controlling...it depends...
> 
> I can't say I look down on someone who lacks confidence in themselves.. I think we ALL do at times, maybe they've had some really rough breaks... been beaten down.. experiences can have a profound effect on us...
> 
> If their way of dealing with it.. is to act out in ways to hurt others.. I simply wouldn't think they are nice people & I'd want to stay away from them, I wouldn't care if it's insecurity or an overly inflated Ego (too much confidence) which can come off as *arrogance*...that's even more obnoxious to deal with!...and I'd never be attracted to that !
> 
> However if they are Kind.. and just honest, having good intentions.. ... I would have a different view of them, and feel there was something to work with... our confidence can always be built *UP*.. be a friend, walk beside someone.. not too far in front of them.. that might be all some of us need.
> 
> Here is an article on what to look for...3 Ways to Recognize Insecurities


Where did you get the rest that went with this post? I'd love to put it on my thread called Educational/Inspirational because I want to be able to find it and read it again. Would you mind reposting your post there?


----------



## Marduk

I've done some thinking about this thread. About past relationships, and my current marriage.

It seems to me that I've been called insecure a number of times. And sometimes rightly so -- I have insecurities like anyone does.

But it also seems to me that the ones that have called me insecure have also been the ones that they themselves admit are highly insecure.

Is that just my experience?


----------



## Adelais

marduk said:


> I've done some thinking about this thread. About past relationships, and my current marriage.
> 
> It seems to me that I've been called insecure a number of times. And sometimes rightly so -- I have insecurities like anyone does.
> 
> But it also seems to me that the ones that have called me insecure have also been the ones that they themselves admit are highly insecure.
> 
> Is that just my experience?


I believe it takes a measure of honesty and a sense of security to admit that one is insecure. I don't believe there is a person in the entire world who is 100% secure in every aspect of their life.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

TheTruthHurts said:


> Simply amorous you keyed in on a single phrase then misunderstood it.


 I think you are right.. I DID misunderstand what you wrote.. if there was a "*TO*" in front of the "have sex with her".. I would have realized that meant you wouldn't .. without the "to" ... I mistook your meaning.... 



> You said your husband would NEVER have sex with a woman then just leave her.
> 
> That wasn't the scenario I painted.
> 
> The scenario I painted was a woman who didn't stick around to even be left behind. Those people do exist you realize - those who have ONS and see no problem with them.


 Yes.. of course...



> I've never had that and am saying I don't judge those who do. Many people stay single into their late 20's and late 30's and many don't have LTR's. It's just a fact. Those people live the life they want.


 Yes they do.. and an ever increasing segment of society is now frowning on marriage at all...I just happen to be in the camp that finds that on the sad side .. . just an opinion.. but yes... I am ever aware of it.. 



> If in some magical world where I was no longer married, and I was living in that environment, I would NOT want to try to start a committed relationship with someone who wanted a ONS. Pretty simple actually.


 Yes it is .. sorry I misunderstood you...



> I don't have the same morality overhang that you have and accept that I was just very lucky to have only experienced love and sex in combination. Early in our relationship I'm sure it was infatuation and sex - but it was never just sex.


 I'm just a hopeless Romantic at







... I do not feel I am overly moral.... I like Porn !! I can't be too moral! ....

Growing up...I've seen a very ugly side to sex being used carelessly ....it didn't hurt me.. but it hurt those I loved.. some things just stay with you.. I've always had very strong feelings here...I guess that just makes me who I am. 



> So as I talk with my kids who are leaving the nest for college soon, I'll be talking about sexual comparability and sex in relationships. We've talked about sex for a long time now - and I don't want then to mix sex and shame, but at the same time consider respect to be part of it.


 We are very open with our sons too.. I see so much of their dad in them.. they are not young guys looking to get all the chicks they can.. they are naturally sentimental and "one woman" dudes... the sad thing is.. in this world..I just don't think THIS does them many favors with women!! 

But this being a thread about insecurities... still we need to be TRUE to who we are....not just going along - camouflaging ourselves to fit in with the popular crowd...sometimes that takes courage.


----------



## Adelais

SimplyAmorous said:


> I like Porn !!
> 
> We are very open with our sons too..


Just curious. Do your sons know that you like porn? If they are too young for that type of knowledge right now, will you tell them that porn is great when they get older? How will you feel, or what will you think about porn and your sons if they prefer types of porn that you don't watch because you find it repulsive or unnatural?


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## SimplyAmorous

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Just curious. Do your sons know that you like porn? If they are too young for that type of knowledge right now, will you tell them that porn is great when they get older? How will you feel, or what will you think about porn and your sons if they prefer types of porn that you don't watch because you find it repulsive or unnatural?


 I had a reply here.. but deleted it.. I'll send you a private message IMFar... It's surely an understandable question..


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## Lila

Confidence is an attribute of attraction just like physical fitness and beauty. As such, a loss of confidence ( insecurity/ low self esteem) can cause a loss of attraction in a partner that values that attribute. It's no different than the people who lose attraction to a partner who has become overweight during the course of their relationship.


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## earlyforties

Lila said:


> Confidence is an attribute of attraction just like physical fitness and beauty. As such, a loss of confidence ( insecurity/ low self esteem) can cause a loss of attraction in a partner that values that attribute. It's no different than the people who lose attraction to a partner who has become overweight during the course of their relationship.


Good comparison. Overweight and insecure have similar effects and are both potential words of insult. No one likes to be told they are either, by anyone especially their spouse. We may choose to ignore the fact or acknowledge it and feel motivated to improve ourselves.


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## Naku

I think for some, probably many women, knowing that her husband is better able to deal with the hardness of the world and will be a rock for her is not only a great comfort, but a primary source of attractions. Another way to say this, is that if you do not appear to be at least stronger and better able to deal with things than her, that you will lose attractiveness.

This blog post, now gone but available courtesy of backed up versions, helped me greatly to win back my wife after she began to lose the feeling:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150812183728/http://www.justfourguys.com/be-the-man-in-your-marriage/


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## SimplyAmorous

Naku said:


> *I think for some, probably many women, knowing that her husband is better able to deal with the hardness of the world and will be a rock for her is not only a great comfort, but a primary source of attractions. Another way to say this, is that if you do not appear to be at least stronger and better able to deal with things than her, that you will lose attractiveness. *


 Yes... this is very much how I feel... I need to be able to TRUST in my man.. and count on him... My husband is a pretty humble guy.. if anything he has a very *quiet confidence*.... 

Sometimes I get my feathers ruffled by things said on this forum (so silly I know)....he is one who will always soothe me.. make light of this...He's always been MY ROCK in this life, no matter what we face.. I was half falling apart when we couldn't conceive year after year ...he was my strong tower through those stormy waves that kept beating at me....

I've also told him he's like the wind beneath my wings.. 












> This blog post, now gone but available courtesy of backed up versions, helped me greatly to win back my wife after she began to lose the feeling:
> 
> Be the Man in Your Marriage


 This is a one of the BEST write ups EVER for men... I've seen it before posted by @MEM11363 in the past !


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## ConanHub

I think the pretty obvious that women lose attraction or that love feeling for insecure men.

Which of course doesn't help their feelings of insecurity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lynn508

One of the challenges in my marriage was that my ex couldn't handle stress or adversity - he'd fall apart, putting me in the position to handle the crisis. If I came to him with an issue needing support, he'd make me more stressed. I think most women like to feel protected by their husbands. In my marriage he was the damsel in distress. Not attractive I'm afraid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jdawg2015

That's a good write up BEFORE problems arise.

Once there are problems, getting things back on track is much more tricky IMO.

I totally agree with the sex comment he makes as well. Definitely don't let that go or it's a huge problem.



SimplyAmorous said:


> This is a one of the BEST write ups EVER for men... I've seen it before posted by @MEM11363 in the past !


----------



## Ikaika

Though I still believe some level of insecurity is part of being human, age has a way reducing a lot of it. 

As I get older I look for less affirmation from a lot of people. It helps to just shrink your sphere (people you are close to). It has made me calmer and less short on the fuse in so many situations. Just my opinion. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ikaika

The only thing I need to fix now, be a bit more sensitive at work. The pre-nursing students go through too many boxes of Kleenex in my office. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Spotthedeaddog

earlyforties said:


> This is from another thread. Just casually sitting there, in the middle of a post. I'm not disputing it. I see it as wake up call to check in on my secure/insecure levels.
> 
> Yet at the same time it does bother me. What is an 'insecure man' given the varying degrees of insecurity, and which of us fall into this category? I'm guessing this may well be a large percentage of men. I really have no idea and I'm not sure the poster, even with their wealth of experience posting on forums knows the answer to that.
> 
> And if I am one of those, does it make me more secure reading this? :surprise:
> 
> In comparison, would it be fair to say
> "Men fall out of love with women with low self esteem. In fact, they grow to dislike them. Even distance themselves from them"
> Maybe I'm just being a bit insecure:wink2:, but me aside, what do others think about this?


Behavior that's the 'kiss of death' for a relationship - Business Insider

Generally I'd have to say "yes" to the "insecure man"

But, let me say this, what are women contributing to the relationship to fix that? Many women I know are very much parasites when it comes to developing the relationship, he is supposed to be this friggin' godking alpha male with all the money, success, etc (heck just read 50 Shades of Grey, or Twilight crap). When the world turns out to be nicer in girl town, than it does having to fight for scraps with the other males, then the guy is usually labelled as "insecure" and that translates to "freely dumpable, ok to trade up"

that's why several men's advice here has been you want to keep the relationship? Then you MUST play ALPHA DOG. You must show no weakness, no doubt, and not ask for assistance. You be name called, she will ***** at you, you will be called controlling - but if you show weakness, you will be "insecure" and she will replace you.
ESPECIALLY if this affects how the "social community" is allowed to see you !!!!! Cry if you must, rend your shirt and hair, but do it alone, where it won't affect her or let others see because once you're "insecure" you're not long a player, just a "resource".


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## ConanHub

intheory said:


> The above quotes reminded me of thoughts I often have on this issue.
> 
> I should confess, I get confused myself. So, I am coming more from a questioning viewpoint; "thinking out loud", if you will.
> 
> Doesn't this viewpoint negate a lot of "equal rights for women"?
> 
> If you expect the man to be stronger, to deal with the challenges of the world more. If a man is not supposed to be vulnerable and reveal his fears and uncertainties to his wife; then aren't we (by default) saying that men are stronger and women are weaker?
> 
> Or, aren't women putting a lot more responsibilities on men's backs, by asking the man to always be strong, not expect emotional support, face the big bad world for her, etc. etc.
> 
> Again, I'm questioning, I'm not judging.
> 
> I'll say that personally, if I want my husband to do those things; whether I realize it or not - I am admitting that I'm weaker than him. And that we are not equal.
> 
> I don't know if there is any way to have said this without giving offense. I didn't say it to give offense.


I don't believe different equates to weaker or unequal.

Women and men should have equal rights and are equal as human beings but some differences are just fine and even complimentary.

I'm simply primal on this issue and actually give it no thought until someone, like yourself, brings it up in conversation.

It simply is attractive to be confident and secure. I think confident, secure women are attractive as well.

Maybe it is a little more necessary for men to be secure for attraction purposes?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

intheory said:


> What you say sounds reasonable.
> 
> I'll just state plainly: I think a man should be able to go to his wife and "crumple" sometimes. In fact, I think she's the only person in the world that he should be able to safely do this with. With the rest of the world, he's got to keep up a front.
> 
> And obviously, a woman should be able to go to her husband in the same way.
> 
> If a guy can't be vulnerable with his wife - who can he be vulnerable with? It reminds me of that old "joke", about men who go to prostitutes "just to talk".
> 
> This might be changing; but men dying in early middle age of heart attacks, always seemed to me to be related to the enormous stress they carried of working, being responsible for dealing with the world; and then never being able to destress or unload.
> 
> I think heart disease is now the number one killer of women too.
> 
> And I know obesity/lack of exercise contributes.
> 
> I dunno. Equal means equal. Women should get to have careers and opportunities if they are qualified, and if that's what they want.
> 
> But wouldn't the opposite side be that men can now let down the ridiculous pretense of being invulnerable, and never weak or needy.
> 
> I also think of that piece of information I picked up somewhere that men dying in battle cry out for their mothers; ie., the one human being they were allowed to be vulnerable and "weak" with for a while.


I do not equate being vulnerable with my wife as insecurity.

She is one of maybe 4 people that has seen me cry as an adult and the only one that has seen me cry more than once.

She loves that I open up with her.

I don't make a habit of whining to her or expecting her to solve my problems or stroke my ego to boost my confidence.

Sex works just fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EVG39

Can a man safely crumple in front of his wife? I dunno know Intheory. My heart says he should be able to but the more I live the more I wonder and I was very much of the generation that was taught to be open and vulnerable a la Phil Donahue. I think the real answer is it depends. There are probably times it is "safe" for a man to do that. Death of a parent or sibling being the obvious examples. In those cases his pain being greater than hers she gets that he has the "right" to grieve in private with her in a way that he cant in public, plus the moment is transitory. But absent these kind of circumstances I think a man's crumpling in front of his wife triggers fear in her in a very primal, below the conscious level. That somehow his ability to shelter her from the storms of life is now in question by his showing too much "negative" emotion (and dare I say perceived "weakness"). That crumpling may leave an impact on her psyche which is hard for her to get over. I think it may well impact her respect and attraction in a way that she doesn't understand and certainly doesn't want to admit to herself or others. This may seem harsh and old school but I have observed this in my marriage of three decades (and my wife is strong, independent and a self described feminist) and in the marriage of others. The more I live the more I think our "reptilian" brain is calling the shots and our societal conditioning is a façade that evaporates once a moment of crisis occurs. Maybe I'm wrong. I kind of hope I am.


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## ConanHub

We give each other compliments all the time and talk with each other about what is going on and what to do about it. We look at it as encouragement.

What I meant by ego stroking was a fairly useless form of flattery used to prop an insecure person up.

Compliments and encouragement don't really fall into my definition of insecurity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

intheory said:


> *I constantly give him compliments and ego strokes. It is fun. I think married people owe this to each other. I don't like the thought of someone else doing that for him. Not that it isn't nice that others appreciate him; I want to be doing the lion's share of it.
> 
> He does not give me a lot of compliments. But, especially as he has gotten older, he is trying to be more tactful and gentler verbally. Giving compliments is not really something he does. It's not unheard of, it's just not really his style.*


"Words of affirmation" probably low on his list.... there are people like this.. they just don't think about it.. I always tell this story about this older couple I know.. she didn't get her 1st compliment till like 9 yrs into their marriage- about a black dress she was wearing... she almost fainted.. that was hard for me to understand.. I think to myself.. shame on him!! What a scoundrel ! But I know the man ...he's a great guy.. but his #1 love language is Acts of Service.. and strongly...and 2nd is gifts.. he's even showed me , happily, things he made for others. 

Hey that's a plus, your husband being more Tactful, gentler verbally.. I'm with you though... I think we should do the lion's share of Ego stroking at home (or let's call it encouragement, words of affirmation, throw in some "dirty flirting" too)...

I may complain about my husband on occasion, he has his shortcomings , as do I... but there is plenty to praise there... if I feel it.. I share it.. it actually makes ME feel good doing that.. like you said.. it's FUN! He may not need it.. but he still appreciates this part of me.


----------



## Wolf1974

intheory said:


> What you say sounds reasonable.
> 
> *I'll just state plainly: I think a man should be able to go to his wife and "crumple" sometimes. In fact, I think she's the only person in the world that he should be able to safely do this with. With the rest of the world, he's got to keep up a front.*
> 
> And obviously, a woman should be able to go to her husband in the same way.
> 
> If a guy can't be vulnerable with his wife - who can he be vulnerable with? It reminds me of that old "joke", about men who go to prostitutes "just to talk".
> 
> This might be changing; but men dying in early middle age of heart attacks, always seemed to me to be related to the enormous stress they carried of working, being responsible for dealing with the world; and then never being able to destress or unload.
> 
> I think heart disease is now the number one killer of women too.
> 
> And I know obesity/lack of exercise contributes.
> 
> I dunno. Equal means equal. Women should get to have careers and opportunities if they are qualified, and if that's what they want.
> 
> But wouldn't the opposite side be that men can now let down the ridiculous pretense of being invulnerable, and never weak or needy.
> 
> I also think of that piece of information I picked up somewhere that men dying in battle cry out for their mothers; ie., the one human being they were allowed to be vulnerable and "weak" with for a while.


This bolded part to me shows you understand men much better than most here. I definitely felt my X was the one safe place I had in life to be or seem weak. So when it's that person who comes after you it can be devastating and then near impossible to become that vulnerable with anyone again. I would argue you can't really but that's probably for another thread. 

I have been with men who have died. Some do cry for thier moms, and some cry out for thier girlfriends or wives. Most cry out for God though and that's men and women.

Great insights intheory!


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## SimplyAmorous

EVG39 said:


> *Can a man safely crumple in front of his wife? I dunno know Intheory. My heart says he should be able to but the more I live the more I wonder and I was very much of the generation that was taught to be open and vulnerable a la Phil Donahue. I think the real answer is it depends. There are probably times it is "safe" for a man to do that. Death of a parent or sibling being the obvious examples. In those cases his pain being greater than hers she gets that he has the "right" to grieve in private with her in a way that he cant in public, plus the moment is transitory. But absent these kind of circumstances I think a man's crumpling in front of his wife triggers fear in her in a very primal, below the conscious level.*
> 
> *That somehow his ability to shelter her from the storms of life is now in question by his showing too much "negative" emotion (and dare I say perceived "weakness"). That crumpling may leave an impact on her psyche which is hard for her to get over. I think it may well impact her respect and attraction in a way that she doesn't understand and certainly doesn't want to admit to herself or others. This may seem harsh and old school but I have observed this in my marriage of three decades (and my wife is strong, independent and a self described feminist) and in the marriage of others. The more I live the more I think our "reptilian" brain is calling the shots and our societal conditioning is a façade that evaporates once a moment of crisis occurs. Maybe I'm wrong. I kind of hope I am.*



I dug up a post on my  Understanding the Male Ego  thread touching on this...



> Anon1111 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I've actually come around to the point where I agree with jld in practice on this. If you're playing odds, as a man, there is really little upside to exposing yourself emotionally to a woman. There is a very strong chance that even if she comforts you in the moment, she will lose respect for you ultimately. This is not by any conscious choice but more an instinctual reaction to male weakness. You are far better off conditioning yourself to rely on yourself only.*
> 
> 
> 
> Someone should make this a thread topic... I have mixed feelings on it.. on the one hand.. I agree very much...
> 
> On the other ....if my husband couldn't connect with me emotionally sharing his soul.. I'd be very frustrated with him...if I felt he had a WALL there...
> 
> I feel there are 2 emotional sides... we don't want one lost with the other...
> 
> For instance.. he is not a man who ever whines & complains...sure he swears when working on a vehicle.. but that's pretty normal... he is always upbeat, smiling, reaches for a hug, consistent, wouldn't matter how bad his day at work was .... in comparison to me.. he's a Saint !....I've never had to deal with a moody man...
> 
> So if a man can retain the "connecting" vulnerability before his wife (the intimate conversations, Romance)..
> 
> This is *POSITIVE energy* -brings a couple together....
> 
> Yet retain the *NEGATIVE energy*... showing Fear, weakness before her -when he well knows showing it will not do anything but make him feel worse...(not to mention what may stir in her, that seed of how she views him as a man slipping )..... Yeah.. he needs to have a grip on this..
> 
> We had a conversation on this a couple yrs ago laying in bed one night....he was telling me about a female co-worker who was honored at work with a reward Plague, got a write up in the paper & all....well some of the guys at work were pizzed about this.... they felt they deserved it.. acting like babies, whining, fussing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it was so bad she told my H she wished she never got it.. not worth the hassle...
> 
> He was UPSET about this, he is a very empathetic man...he told her to screw those A-holes, he was happy for her.. and reminded her she could do rounds around them ...she deserved that reward...but anyway...
> 
> This started a deeper discussion ... How he seen those men.. and I asked him ....why he's never been a complainer.. how does he do that?? .... I mean he didn't even complain when he wanted more sex -and in my view, he darn well should have [email protected]#...*He just takes it all in stride*.. so he went on to explain how he sees A MAN.. I wish I would have written down what he said that night...
> 
> In his world...*MEN do not act like that*.... it's kinda how I was speaking in post *#35* ...(I feel my view was based on listening to him that night)... what I retained anyway....
> 
> It still doesn't mean they don't feel pain, sadness, worry , fear.... but they can not show it.. something in him KNOWS this.. and lives by this code.. many men feel this way.. A woman does not have this code.. it's more acceptable for her.
> 
> Do I admire it.. hell [email protected]# .. can he admit he still feels similar emotions we all do... YES...and I'd want him to be honest about that..
> 
> So yes.. I am thankful he retains what he does.. but I will always feel he should have raised the roof a bit when he wanted more
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
Click to expand...


----------



## Wolf1974

SimplyAmorous said:


> I dug up a post on my  Understanding the Male Ego  thread touching on this...


It's funny to me because this can be flipped back and forth a bit. So a woman doesn't want an insecure guy who showes his concerns, emotions, doubts, or whatever. If he showes them he is weak. If he doesn't talk about them and bottles things up he becomes : uncommunicative, unfeeling, cold, distant and so on. Seems a lose lose battle to me lol

To me the one great thing about establishing marriage and true deep intimacy with a woman is the ability to share anything with her and her having the responsibility to be good custodial of that information, in other words don't use it against me later. If that can't be established because of it making her loose respect of me than I would simply say marriage isn't worth it then and would advocate people only live together and co-habitate but keep a minimal emotional distance.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Wolf1974 said:


> It's funny to me because this can be flipped back and forth a bit. So a woman doesn't want an insecure guy who showes his concerns, emotions, doubts, or whatever. If he showes them he is weak. If he doesn't talk about them and bottles things up he becomes : uncommunicative, unfeeling, cold, distant and so on. Seems a lose lose battle to me lol
> 
> To me the one great thing about establishing marriage and true deep intimacy with a woman is the ability to share anything with her and her having the responsibility to be good custodial of that information, in other words don't use it against me later. If that can't be established because of it making her loose respect of me than I would simply say marriage isn't worth it then and would advocate people only live together and co-habitate but keep a minimal emotional distance.


I think I explained in my post how there is a negative & a positive side....do you see it differently Wolf? 

We could turn this around looking at us women too... sure you guys WANT to comfort us, if we've had a bad day...feeling a little emotional .... but if we abuse it ...now we start complaining all the time...or we'll blame our fire breathing dragon attitude on "that time of the month".... it's unacceptable.. 

I know you feel strongly here .. .

I will admit I have had some bad days.. pushing my limits with my husband.. should have shut my sorry mouth..

He gives me grace ... (the good FAR outweighs the bad, we'd both attest)... 

And likewise... I wouldn't throw a man out cause he showed me some weakness ....we all have moments, we all struggle with insecurities (that's my position).. that's also being HUMAN.. it's part of vulnerability... which is the greatest intimacy.. we take the good with the bad.. 

2 together.. sharing...facing the storms are far better than me going it alone or looking for some so called perfect Alpha Male.. cause you know what.. NO ONE CAN LIVE UP TO IT ALL... talk about pressure! ....

How I see it.. what my husband may lack.. some other dude I bet would pi$$ me off more so -in some other area...

We need to strive together.. I think You'd agree with me on that.. even if you'd have very little patience with a woman struggling with some pms...


----------



## jorgegene

how much of this man/woman dynamic is culture and how much of it is innate or 'primal' as conanbhub calls it?

in other words, we are discussing 'insecure men'. there seems to be a strong consensus that insecure men are unattractive and that 
there is a delicate balance between being vulnerable and insecure. intheory has interestingly protested this notion implying (it seems to me)
that men must project an act and deny at times their very selves. men must be sensitive towards others, and yet not sensitive themselves? 

they can't be vulnerable, or at least insecure lest they seem unattractive or whiny.
they must walk this tightrope, and in fact they must learn it at an early age, hard knocks if you will, beginning in grade school.

i personally can see the the value in this dynamic, although i am not 100% sold on it and wonder how much of this is evolutionary adaption necessary to
provide strong family and tribal functioning and how much of it is an overbearing culture that wants to suck us in and deprive us of our individuality?

and if in fact it is evolutionary adaption, in light of the proposition that we are beyond the old paradigms, shall we revolt and shake our fists at and present our
middle fingers towards popular conventions?

and if not, where does this leave us?


----------



## Marduk

EVG39 said:


> Can a man safely crumple in front of his wife? I dunno know Intheory. My heart says he should be able to but the more I live the more I wonder and I was very much of the generation that was taught to be open and vulnerable a la Phil Donahue. I think the real answer is it depends. There are probably times it is "safe" for a man to do that. Death of a parent or sibling being the obvious examples. In those cases his pain being greater than hers she gets that he has the "right" to grieve in private with her in a way that he cant in public, plus the moment is transitory. But absent these kind of circumstances I think a man's crumpling in front of his wife triggers fear in her in a very primal, below the conscious level. That somehow his ability to shelter her from the storms of life is now in question by his showing too much "negative" emotion (and dare I say perceived "weakness"). That crumpling may leave an impact on her psyche which is hard for her to get over. I think it may well impact her respect and attraction in a way that she doesn't understand and certainly doesn't want to admit to herself or others. This may seem harsh and old school but I have observed this in my marriage of three decades (and my wife is strong, independent and a self described feminist) and in the marriage of others. The more I live the more I think our "reptilian" brain is calling the shots and our societal conditioning is a façade that evaporates once a moment of crisis occurs. Maybe I'm wrong. I kind of hope I am.


I think you're onto something.

If I express sadness, that seems to be fine.

If I express anxiety or fear, that seems very much not fine.

Now that I think about it, it can even be about the same thing.

"I'm really scared aunt Bettie might die" kinda stuff seems to yeild a generally negative response that looks like "well, why don't you talk to her and her doctors about why she won't quit smoking?" (Why aren't you doing something about it instead of just feeling something about it?). Attraction levels seem to drop.

But "I'm really sad aunt Bettie died" yeilds an emotionally supportive response and perhaps even increased attraction.

Similarly, "I'm really scared I might not get the promotion" vs "I'm really sad I didn't get the promotion" seems to yeild two very different responses.

Maybe sad is OK but fear isn't?


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## Wolf1974

intheory said:


> Thanks for sharing this Wolf. In your line of work, you would have had actual experience of this.
> 
> I am surprised that people (still) mostly cry out for God. But I think it's a good thing.


I'm not sure they believe. I think they are crying out for hope when they know the end is here. What surprised me most often is, unless pain is involved , how calm many of them are about the end
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

intheory said:


> And both sadness and fear are very intense emotions. More intense and deep than anger, I would say.
> 
> So, in addition to feeling either sad or afraid; apparently you're also supposed to be evaluating in your head whether or not your wife will support or care about you - or whether you might appear "weak"
> 
> Who should ever have to worry about that with their spouse?
> 
> You have to worry about that stuff with competitors and co-workers, and probably a lot of your friends. Isn't that enough?


Should it be enough? Probably. 

Is it? No.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974

SimplyAmorous said:


> I think I explained in my post how there is a negative & a positive side....do you see it differently Wolf?
> 
> We could turn this around looking at us women too... sure you guys WANT to comfort us, if we've had a bad day...feeling a little emotional .... but if we abuse it ...now we start complaining all the time...or we'll blame our fire breathing dragon attitude on "that time of the month".... it's unacceptable..
> 
> I know you feel strongly here .. .
> 
> I will admit I have had some bad days.. pushing my limits with my husband.. should have shut my sorry mouth..
> 
> He gives me grace ... (the good FAR outweighs the bad, we'd both attest)...
> 
> And likewise... I wouldn't throw a man out cause he showed me some weakness ....we all have moments, we all struggle with insecurities (that's my position).. that's also being HUMAN.. it's part of vulnerability... which is the greatest intimacy.. we take the good with the bad..
> 
> 2 together.. sharing...facing the storms are far better than me going it alone or looking for some so called perfect Alpha Male.. cause you know what.. NO ONE CAN LIVE UP TO IT ALL... talk about pressure! ....
> 
> How I see it.. what my husband may lack.. some other dude I bet would pi$$ me off more so -in some other area...
> 
> We need to strive together.. I think You'd agree with me on that.. even if you'd have very little patience with a woman struggling with some pms...


I know and I get it SA. Was just playin devils advocate a bit  I don't think anything is wrong with a man showing his vulnerable side to his wife and confidant. A mature woman wouldn't have issue with this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jorgegene

and how much of this agonizing over how we ought to act a phony face we put on to appease ourselves and others?

and how much of it is practical in terms of just being a solid human being of mature character and not succumbing 
to our base childhood impulse?


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## Ynot

I think the premise is rather limited and far from complete. Women do fall out of love with insecure men. But they also fall in love with insecure men. Neither of the two are permanent despite our assumptions. Some women fall in love with men they can control ie insecure men. Then once their needs are meant move on to. Sometimes to another man, and sometimes to nobody at all. The same holds true for men. 
Insecurity can manifest itself in two totally different ways. An insecure person may become servile and submissive or they may become domineering and abusive. The key in how it plays out is in the balance of power within the relationship. 
I think either way, insecure people tend to attract insecure people. The "falling out of love" occurs once the insecurities are recognized as such.


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## SimplyAmorous

intheory said:


> I wanted to say that when discussing men being "insecure", or sad, or having weak moments. Or, feeling fear and uncertainty . . . .
> 
> 
> I am talking about a guy who 70-90% of the time; functions just fine. He's a pretty stand up guy.
> 
> But in that other 10% of the time; he can let go and break down a bit when he needs to; and his wife will be there for him.
> 
> *I am NOT talking about a guy who sobs and weeps on an even semi-regular basis. Anyone who is becoming emotionally unglued; be it man, woman or child; probably needs professional help.*


 Like Elliot ...







... Sensitive Elliot - Bedazzled


----------



## MRR

Anon Pink said:


> I've noticed this too and it makes me question why women seem to get a free pass to be insecure, especially about their body. If women get to blame their body image problems on marketing and mass media, does this mean that men also get to blame their insecurity on...James Bond?
> 
> I think in marriage and in life, owning our issues striving to be a better person is what we are ALL responsible for. So you have a body image problem? Okay, own it! Now work to rid yourself of this problem, but you don't get to sit back and avoid life because you're insecure about something.
> 
> For me, an insecure man would be a minor turn off. As long as he was working toward a more confident inner person, I could deal with insecurity.


It is not that women get a pass, it is that attraction is not a choice. Though you say you are 'ok' with working on things in a hypethetical scenario, you MAY find yourself not attracted to an insecure man when you actually are facing a specific person. 

This is a general statement about what attracts women, and, again, it is not a choice women make-- though most seem to agree that confidence is attractive, which would relate. 

Men are a little bit easier because of the visual aspect; an attractive woman is often still attractive, at least while getting to know her.


----------



## Wolf1974

SimplyAmorous said:


> Like Elliot ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... Sensitive Elliot - Bedazzled


Omg Elisabeth Hurley in that movie >


----------



## Naku

intheory said:


> The above quotes reminded me of thoughts I often have on this issue.
> 
> I should confess, I get confused myself. So, I am coming more from a questioning viewpoint; "thinking out loud", if you will.
> 
> Doesn't this viewpoint negate a lot of "equal rights for women"?
> 
> If you expect the man to be stronger, to deal with the challenges of the world more. If a man is not supposed to be vulnerable and reveal his fears and uncertainties to his wife; then aren't we (by default) saying that men are stronger and women are weaker?
> 
> Or, aren't women putting a lot more responsibilities on men's backs, by asking the man to always be strong, not expect emotional support, face the big bad world for her, etc. etc.
> 
> Again, I'm questioning, I'm not judging.
> 
> I'll say that personally, if I want my husband to do those things; whether I realize it or not - I am admitting that I'm weaker than him. And that we are not equal.
> 
> I don't know if there is any way to have said this without giving offense. I didn't say it to give offense.


Yes, the old wisdom was correct. It may have been exaggerated, but the notions are still true.


----------



## Lila

Naku said:


> I think for some, probably many women, knowing that her husband is better able to deal with the hardness of the world and will be a rock for her is not only a great comfort, but a primary source of attractions. *Another way to say this, is that if you do not appear to be at least [as strong] or stronger and better able to deal with things than her, that you will lose attractiveness.*


I like what you posted here but I added one caveat. A man doesn't necessarily have to be emotionally stronger than their female partner for her to find him attractive. He just, at a minimum, has to be equally as strong. 

Now there there women out there who are capable of carrying the majority of emotional load in the relationship but in my experience, they are fewer in numbers than their counterparts.



Naku said:


> This blog post, now gone but available courtesy of backed up versions, helped me greatly to win back my wife after she began to lose the feeling:
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20150812183728/http://www.justfourguys.com/be-the-man-in-your-marriage/


I'm going to go against some of the other posters and say that I *DISLIKE, DISLIKE, DISLIKE* the blog you posted above.

For beginners, the author acknowledges that he is a fan of Roissy (one of the general accepted fathers of the Red Pill/PUA movement) and based his blog specifically on Roissy's '_Sixteen Commandments of P00n_', a.k.a. The Player's Handbook. Here's the link to those who care to read them. https://web.archive.org/web/2015070.../2008/07/08/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/

He also sends out acknowledgments to 


> I’m indebted to Dalrock, Keoni Galt, Rollo Tomassi and Athol Kay, all of whom shaped my thinking on these matters


For the ladies on this thread that liked this blog...look up some of the men acknowledged by the author. Might be an eye opening experience.

The Red Pill/PUA b.s. makes it impossible to appreciate any of the advice. The last few paragraphs are generally all I need to know so as to prevent me from directing anyone to this dude's blog for _any_ reason.



> Brook no disrespect. Shut down disrespect whenever it pops up. Whenever you see danger signs like “I love you but I’m not in love with you” or distance, or b!tchiness, or “strongindependentIdontneedaman” attitude, it probably means you’re too heavy on the beta/comfort and too light on the alpha/attraction/dominance. By this time you should know what will work on her. *Run some a$$hole game, or c)c0cky/funny. Use push/pull, the two-thirds rule, push for sex, nuke the sh!t tests. Push her away, make her come to you. Don’t tell her anything. And don’t ask her what she wants or needs. She doesn’t know, and even if she did she would be unable to tell you. She will probably tell you she wants you to be nicer to her, which is unhelpful and inaccurate.*
> 
> *If it starts getting really bad, run full on Dread. Flirt with other women in front of her. Show and tell her in no uncertain terms that if she won’t give you what you want and need, you’ll end the marriage and get it somewhere else and from someone else. Disappear for hours or even a day, and tell her nothing about where you were, what you did and who you were with. Even though you’re not cheating on her, make her think you are. Stop talking to her so much. If you think she has cheated or is cheating, investigate. Get to the bottom of it and confront it. DNA paternity test the kids if you haven’t done it already. If it gets to this point, see a lawyer and get some opinions on what will likely happen if someone decides to detonate the marriage.*


I don't really think the above quote need much discourse. If you're a woman, and you don't mind being treated like that, then by all means.....enjoy. 

None of the underlined statements above illustrate a confident man. An untrustworthy man, with serious control issues? Yep! A man secure in himself and his own worth? Nope.



> Make clear to her you will do whatever legally can and must be done to protect yourself. Make clear to her you’ll go to war if you have to, and that you’ll do whatever you legally can to minimize and limit your financial obligations to her if the marriage ends. Make it clear that if you can possibly do it, *you’ll legally inflict as much discomfort and inconvenience on her as possible. *Make clear if you discover she has cheated, you’ll divorce her immediately, you’ll publicize far and wide her infidelity, and you’ll press for all legal remedies and limitations on her post-divorce relief. Make clear to her you won’t hesitate to end your marriage should that become necessary for whatever reason. Don’t ever ask any women for advice about what to do. Don’t apologize and don’t explain. And if you have to, follow through, and initiate legal proceedings to move toward divorce.


The bolded above is reason #1 why I encourage women to do whatever it takes to become financially independent. One never knows if they'll end up married to a d1ck like the author who strongly believes that they get to decide if and when to divorce. 

I could never imagine being married to someone who would rather make my life a living he!! just for choosing to divorce than living in a miserable marriage. Talk about a control freak!


----------



## jld

Lila said:


> I like what you posted here but I added one caveat. A man doesn't necessarily have to be emotionally stronger than their female partner for her to find him attractive. He just, at a minimum, has to be equally as strong.
> 
> Now there there women out there who are capable of carrying the majority of emotional load in the relationship but in my experience, they are fewer in numbers than their counterparts.
> 
> I'm going to go against some of the other posters and say that I *DISLIKE, DISLIKE, DISLIKE* the blog you posted above.
> 
> For beginners, the author acknowledges that he is a fan of Roissy (one of the general accepted fathers of the Red Pill/PUA movement) and based his blog specifically on Roissy's '_Sixteen Commandments of P00n_', a.k.a. The Player's Handbook. Here's the link to those who care to read them. https://web.archive.org/web/2015070.../2008/07/08/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/
> 
> He also sends out acknowledgments to
> 
> For the ladies on this thread that liked this blog...look up some of the men acknowledged by the author. Might be an eye opening experience.
> 
> The Red Pill/PUA b.s. makes it impossible to appreciate any of the advice. The last few paragraphs are generally all I need to know so as to prevent me from directing anyone to this dude's blog for _any_ reason.
> 
> I don't really think the above quote need much discourse. If you're a woman, and you don't mind being treated like that, then by all means.....enjoy.
> 
> None of the underlined statements above illustrate a confident man. An untrustworthy man, with serious control issues? Yep! A man secure in himself and his own worth? Nope.
> 
> The bolded above is reason #1 why I encourage women to do whatever it takes to become financially independent. One never knows if they'll end up married to a d1ck like the author who strongly believes that they get to decide if and when to divorce.
> 
> I could never imagine being married to someone who would rather make my life a living he!! just for choosing to divorce than living in a miserable marriage. Talk about a control freak!


This is such a great post, Lila. Such a great post.

Totally agree on the value of financial independence for women. I am really glad I have my children, and I am glad they are homeschooled. But to be financially independent would be a great addition.


----------



## Lila

jld said:


> This is such a great post, Lila. Such a great post.
> 
> Totally agree on the value of financial independence for women. I am really glad I have my children, and I am glad they are homeschooled. But to be financially independent would be a great addition.


It's the ultimate balancing act. 

I do admit that my response is fear based. It would be so wonderful to not have it but reading blogs like the one I commented on, it's difficult to let go. 

I don't agree that anything that author wrote equates to a more confident man. I believe confidence is being comfortable in one's own skin. It does not mean being something 'else'.


----------



## jld

Lila said:


> It's the ultimate balancing act.
> 
> I do admit that my response is fear based. It would be so wonderful to not have it but reading blogs like the one I commented on, it's difficult to let go.
> 
> I don't agree that anything that author wrote equates to a more confident man. I believe confidence is being comfortable in one's own skin. It does not mean being something 'else'.


Tbh, I did not read the blog links, just your excerpts from them. Those were bad enough! 

Totally agree on confidence. We need to be who we are.

Very honest answer on your fear. I appreciate your willingness to be vulnerable. I admire your financial independence, too. It gives you power. You know you can leave and you will be okay. 

And it surely gives you influence over your husband. He knows you are with him because you want to be, not because you have to be.


----------



## Kilgoretrout

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I believe it takes a measure of honesty and a sense of security to admit that one is insecure. I don't believe there is a person in the entire world who is 100% secure in every aspect of their life.


Well said. Paradoxically it takes confidence (also trust in the other person) to admit your insecurities
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

intheory said:


> What you say sounds reasonable.
> 
> I'll just state plainly: I think a man should be able to go to his wife and "crumple" sometimes. In fact, I think she's the only person in the world that he should be able to safely do this with. With the rest of the world, he's got to keep up a front.
> 
> And obviously, a woman should be able to go to her husband in the same way.
> 
> If a guy can't be vulnerable with his wife - who can he be vulnerable with?


I agree! Indeed, I would take it one step further, as I really don't see the point of keeping up a front. Humans have emotions and these emotions serve us well. What is the value for men to pretend they don't have any?


----------



## aurora_azul

Maybe it depends on what the insecurities are about? If a man is insecure about his partner making more money, having a better job or performing better at work (even if they aren't in the same organisation or industry), being more popular etc., that's reason right there for the woman to fall out of love. 

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk


----------



## jb02157

Putting labels on people never helps, it only gives you an excuse to think negatively about someone. You can call anybody insecure about one thing or another. Truth is, you can find faults in anybody and along with that an excuse or rationalization not to be with them.


----------



## Lionelhutz

jb02157 said:


> Putting labels on people never helps, it only gives you an excuse to think negatively about someone. You can call anybody insecure about one thing or another. Truth is, you can find faults in anybody and along with that an excuse or rationalization not to be with them.


I agree. Particularly when it comes to feelings like love and attraction I think we tell ourselves stories about our motivations and the "reasons" for love or falling out of love that are just as likely to be untrue. 

We may not be conscious of the reason for a shift in emotion or may not want to accept them. Most of us can see this in other people, but would be loath to recognize it in ourselves. We are all much too smart, self-aware or guided by principal to fall victim to such things.

The simple truth is that a man who falls behind in earning expectations or shows behaviors associated with a lack of dominance is less appealing to women. If the woman on the other hand feels she has hit her stride in terms of social or economic standing she is going to find her partner less appealing. How she explains that change in emotion is likely to be incidental.


----------



## UMP

nirvana said:


> Everything in the world is about women. Women's likes and dislikes. Women this, women that. Valentine's Day is supposed to be about love. Not "man pampering woman" it has turned into.
> 
> Many women have low self esteem which is very very unattractive. My wife, though very beautiful and intelligent, has it. Her sister is not as good looking and not as intelligent, but has street smarts and is a go-getter. She comes across as happier and cooler than my wife.
> 
> You know the reason? Sex. Both men and women want it, but women have the power to withhold it and men go crazy. How many times do men withhold it? Not many.
> 
> Every human being is insecure about something. We all have failures. Who is really 100% "secure"? If so, he is faking it.


Which begs the question:
If a woman declines sex simply because she can, is that a mark of insecurity?


----------



## Anon Pink

UMP said:


> Which begs the question:
> If a woman declines sex simply because she can, is that a mark of insecurity?


Considering, here in the USA, women only gained the right to decline sex with her husband in the 1990's...

Sorry UMP, I just had to put that out there to remind the folks who act like women are manipulative self centered children that we have only recently enjoyed the right to our bodies even while their is movement to destroy those rights and put the state, parents, or lover in charge.

But to answer your question, no.


----------



## nirvana

UMP said:


> Which begs the question:
> If a woman declines sex simply because she can, is that a mark of insecurity?



Good question, but I think the answer is No.

Everyone is out to push the boundaries and use any bit of leverage they got. Once you are married, it automatically means that you promise to have sex with only your partner. For a man, it means that the hotties in the field are out of bounds. Same for the women also. The problem is in this setup, if the wife says "no sex", then she does it because she has the capability to go without it for along period of time and knows that her husband cannot. And she thinks he will not go outside the marriage for sex, so she WINS.

If the wife is a SAHM, maybe the only thing he can do is cut out her spending but that is pretty weak.

Girlfriends rarely have this "no sex" leverage and rarely attempt it because the boyfriend can show her the middle finger and go bang someone outside just to get off. This is why most men here complain that he used to get BJs earlier and after marriage, he gets nothing.

Same story everywhere. Women using sex as currency and then denying that they do so.


----------



## nirvana

Anon Pink said:


> Considering, here in the USA, women only gained the right to decline sex with her husband in the 1990's...
> 
> Sorry UMP, I just had to put that out there to remind the folks who act like women are manipulative self centered children that we have only recently enjoyed the right to our bodies even while their is movement to destroy those rights and put the state, parents, or lover in charge.
> 
> But to answer your question, no.


AP, I don't understand, can you please elaborate on the first line. What happened in 1990? Is this a legal right - a law change?


----------



## UMP

nirvana said:


> Good question, but I think the answer is No.
> 
> Everyone is out to push the boundaries and use any bit of leverage they got. Once you are married, it automatically means that you promise to have sex with only your partner. For a man, it means that the hotties in the field are out of bounds. Same for the women also. The problem is in this setup, if the wife says "no sex", then she does it because she has the capability to go without it for along period of time and knows that her husband cannot. And she thinks he will not go outside the marriage for sex, so she WINS.
> 
> If the wife is a SAHM, maybe the only thing he can do is cut out her spending but that is pretty weak.
> 
> Girlfriends rarely have this "no sex" leverage and rarely attempt it because the boyfriend can show her the middle finger and go bang someone outside just to get off. This is why most men here complain that he used to get BJs earlier and after marriage, he gets nothing.
> 
> Same story everywhere. Women using sex as currency and then denying that they do so.


Why use sex as currency?
What does one gain? Power or to sooth ones own insecurity?
Or maybe it's just the simple fact that the one doing the declining is simply not into you for whatever reason.

Funny thing is, when a man is sexually rejected it makes him more insecure, whinny and needy, which is all unattractive to a woman.

Just thinking out loud.


----------



## ConanHub

UMP said:


> Which begs the question:
> If a woman declines sex simply because she can, is that a mark of insecurity?


More indicative of an imbalanced and dysfunctional relationship and just as easily could be a man denying sex.

I've witnessed far too many episodes of female infidelity and males with LD or ND over the years to believe in stereotypes that aren't held up fairly universally.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

A woman can definitely fall out of attraction with an insecure man.

That could lead to further complications and if not handled right, could lead to falling out of love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

Prior to 1970 a man could force his wife to have sex with him without any criminal consequence. It was LEGAL to rape your wife. Mid 1970's, the feminist movement was going strong, awareness was spreading and a few states passed laws criminalizing marital rape. Mid 1990's marital rape became a crime nationwide.






UMP said:


> Funny thing is, when a man is sexually rejected it makes him more insecure, whinny and needy, which is all unattractive to a woman.


So true!

Or perhaps childish and unable to see his role so he lays the blame entirely at her manipulative conniving feet.




nivana said:


> The problem is in this setup, if the wife says "no sex", then she does it because she has the capability to go without it for along period of time and knows that her husband cannot. And she thinks he will not go outside the marriage for sex, so she WINS.


----------



## UMP

ConanHub said:


> A woman can definitely fall out of attraction with an insecure man.
> 
> That could lead to further complications and if not handled right, could lead to falling out of love.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I always thought that a guy could be 100% open with his woman.
The night I lost my virginity I cried the next day, with the girl:surprise:
Needless to say, we did not speak again. I became a leper to her.

I cannot be 100% open with my emotions toward my wife. Probably why I had a heart attack at 44. Still can't do it. I could, but my wife would feel like my mother, not my lover.
Not saying it's wrong or right, it's simply MY reality.


----------



## UMP

Anon Pink said:


> Or perhaps childish and unable to see his role so he lays the blame entirely at her manipulative conniving feet.


Good point, but it still hurts. I want my mommy.


----------



## ConanHub

UMP said:


> I always thought that a guy could be 100% open with his woman.
> The night I lost my virginity I cried the next day, with the girl:surprise:
> Needless to say, we did not speak again. I became a leper to her.
> 
> I cannot be 100% open with my emotions toward my wife. Probably why I had a heart attack at 44. Still can't do it. I could, but my wife would feel like my mother, not my lover.
> Not saying it's wrong or right, it's simply MY reality.


I don't doubt your situation. I shook like a leaf in an autumn wind the first time with Mrs. Conan. Over 24 years and still attracted and in love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

UMP said:


> Good point, but it still hurts. I want my mommy.


It hurts to be rejected. Period. 

The trouble comes when we fail to contemplate what caused the rejection. You have successfully figured out what behaviors of YOURS turn your wife on or off because you contemplated what caused her rejection. You did not accuse her of lording pvssy power over you. You did not accuse her of misleading you. You did not chalk it up to "women be cra cra." 

Well done UMP.


----------



## UMP

ConanHub said:


> I don't doubt your situation. I shook like a leaf in an autumn wind the first time with Mrs. Conan. Over 24 years and still attracted and in love.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wifes father is a mans man. Owns his own car shop. Will cut his finger half off and super glue it. Displays no emotions other than grit. I am certain this does not work in my favor. I on the other hand grew up with a silver spoon in my mouth.
My mother would let me tell her EVERYTHING. She did however warn me never to speak like this to a woman, other than herself.

Life is very strange.


----------



## UMP

Anon Pink said:


> It hurts to be rejected. Period.
> 
> The trouble comes when we fail to contemplate what caused the rejection. You have successfully figured out what behaviors of YOURS turn your wife on or off because you contemplated what caused her rejection. You did not accuse her of lording pvssy power over you. You did not accuse her of misleading you. You did not chalk it up to "women be cra cra."
> 
> Well done UMP.


Yeah, but it only took me over 20 years to figure that out.
I wasted lots O pvssy.
This is why I gave my son "no more mr. nice guy" on his 18th. birthday.


----------



## Lynn508

UMP said:


> Why use sex as currency?
> What does one gain? Power or to sooth ones own insecurity?
> Or maybe it's just the simple fact that the one doing the declining is simply not into you for whatever reason.
> 
> Funny thing is, when a man is sexually rejected it makes him more insecure, whinny and needy, which is all unattractive to a woman.
> 
> Just thinking out loud.


Most women do want sex. but we need to be attracted to the person we are expected to have sex with. Things like neglect or neediness will make a man unattractive in the same at that a woman piling on the pounds and sitting around the house in sweatpants is unattractive. But women are used to being viewed as sex objects so we tend to put more effort into making ourselves attractive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## UMP

The more emotional insecurity I show my wife, the less she wants sex, plain and simple.
Even stating "I love you" too often turns her off.
In fact, I would say the less emotion I show, the more she is attracted to me sexually.

My whole world could be imploding and I can't talk about it if I want my wife to be sexually attracted to me.

Sometimes I just get so tired of it all. Interestingly, when I have had enough and just don't give a shiit about anything anymore, then she comes on to me.

It's difficult being this kind of man 24/7

I need a hug


----------



## UMP

Lynn508 said:


> Most women do want sex. but we need to be attracted to the person we are expected to have sex with. Things like neglect or neediness will make a man unattractive in the same at that a woman piling on the pounds and sitting around the house in sweatpants is unattractive. But women are used to being viewed as sex objects so we tend to put more effort into making ourselves attractive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with you 100%.
However, it does not make it any easier.
Sorry, I have had a difficult couple weeks at work.
I can't talk to my wife about it, so I'll cry on your shoulder, Ok?


----------



## Anon Pink

Awww poor UMP.

I've often wondered if your wife is simply much more needy than you. If she sees your need she fears she won't get her own needs met. Idk, just thinking out loud. I also think that perhaps, caring for a special needs child makes her expend her emotional strength in one direction and so she looks to you to be her rock so that she can be the rock for your child! Again, just thinking out loud.


----------



## UMP

Anon Pink said:


> Awww poor UMP.
> 
> I've often wondered if your wife is simply much more needy than you. If she sees your need she fears she won't get her own needs met. Idk, just thinking out loud. I also think that perhaps, caring for a special needs child makes her expend her emotional strength in one direction and so she looks to you to be her rock so that she can be the rock for your child! Again, just thinking out loud.


Yes, 
Our mentally handicapped daughter can drain the life out of ANYONE in just a couple hours. All she wants to do is eat. The minute she finishes a meal, she constantly talks about food until the next meal comes up. It takes the mental strength of 10 not run for the hills. Knowing that she will never improve also takes it out of you. It's like perpetually having a 5 year old child till YOU die. Then you worry about who is going to take care of her when you're not around.

Anyway, thanks for the hug :grin2:

I feel better already. My wife just called me and "initiated" sex by saying "I haven't started my period yet." Women are SO covert in their initiation......except for you, my friend.:laugh:


----------



## nirvana

ConanHub said:


> More indicative of an imbalanced and dysfunctional relationship and just as easily could be a man denying sex.
> 
> I've witnessed far too many episodes of female infidelity and males with LD or ND over the years to believe in stereotypes that aren't held up fairly universally.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



What age group though? I think what you say above would be true when the woman is around 35 with a much older man (50+).


----------



## nirvana

UMP said:


> Why use sex as currency?
> What does one gain? Power or to sooth ones own insecurity?
> Or maybe it's just the simple fact that the one doing the declining is simply not into you for whatever reason.
> 
> Funny thing is, when a man is sexually rejected it makes him more insecure, whinny and needy, which is all unattractive to a woman.
> 
> Just thinking out loud.


Why not use?
Everyone uses the leverage they have. You see hot women use their hotness at work. At my previous place there was a hot 25 year old who would walk around in clothing that revealed the back part of her bra. One poor fellow even told her that her clothes had some malfunction. :grin2: He didn't know that she was just being skanky.

I've seen women wear low necks and bend right in front. There is no way they don't know what's showing.

It's all leverage and power. Men have less of it in this case.


When my wife rejects me, earlier, I would turn to the other side and go to sleep. To my wife, it looked like I was pouting, and she would get angry and complain that I was making her feel guilty. Now when she rejects me, I just stop advancing, but continue to hold her. Or I withdraw very very slowly so it is not obvious. Then in about 5 minutes, she turns over and begins to hug me or hold my hand. Interesting.


----------



## ConanHub

nirvana said:


> What age group though? I think what you say above would be true when the woman is around 35 with a much older man (50+).


Most age groups represented.

There doesn't seem to be too young or old of a group.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NotEasy

Originally Posted by *UMP* View Post 
_Which begs the question:
If a woman declines sex simply because she can, is that a mark of insecurity?_



nirvana said:


> Good question, but I think the answer is No.
> 
> Everyone is out to push the boundaries and use any bit of leverage they got. Once you are married, it automatically means that you promise to have sex with only your partner. For a man, it means that the hotties in the field are out of bounds. Same for the women also. The problem is in this setup, if the wife says "no sex", then she does it because she has the capability to go without it for along period of time and knows that her husband cannot. And she thinks he will not go outside the marriage for sex, so she WINS.
> 
> If the wife is a SAHM, maybe the only thing he can do is cut out her spending but that is pretty weak.
> 
> Girlfriends rarely have this "no sex" leverage and rarely attempt it because the boyfriend can show her the middle finger and go bang someone outside just to get off. This is why most men here complain that he used to get BJs earlier and after marriage, he gets nothing.
> 
> Same story everywhere. Women using sex as currency and then denying that they do so.


I almost see a sharp T-shirt slogan in there.
"Women use sex as currency. 
....
Ladies deny they do so"

But of course we all use whatever 'tools' are at hand.

I also don't see how the 2nd paragraph is right. Certainly legal changes around rape in marriage might increase the likelihood of with-holding sex. But the cynic in me doubts that most people now percieve marriage means you only have sex with your spouse. Lots of other options exist, such as internet porn and hookup sites. Even if the internet didn't exist and he did suffer in silence and celibacy, I don't see how she wins. More like she thinks that she is suffering a little but knows he is suffering more, so she loses less rather than she wins.
Back in 'olden days', she might have hoped to win after any resulting infidelity by causing a socially damaging divorce where his vile actions are exposed to public ridicule. Modern divorces here are now called 'no fault', which also means no winner.

And I am not saying I approve of any of these changes or actions.


----------



## UMP

nirvana said:


> Why not use?
> Everyone uses the leverage they have. You see hot women use their hotness at work. At my previous place there was a hot 25 year old who would walk around in clothing that revealed the back part of her bra. One poor fellow even told her that her clothes had some malfunction. :grin2: He didn't know that she was just being skanky.
> 
> I've seen women wear low necks and bend right in front. There is no way they don't know what's showing.
> 
> It's all leverage and power. Men have less of it in this case.
> 
> 
> When my wife rejects me, earlier, I would turn to the other side and go to sleep. To my wife, it looked like I was pouting, and she would get angry and complain that I was making her feel guilty. Now when she rejects me, I just stop advancing, but continue to hold her. Or I withdraw very very slowly so it is not obvious. Then in about 5 minutes, she turns over and begins to hug me or hold my hand. Interesting.


I agree with what you say. I can see your point in the work place, etc. What about married life? What is there to gain? What did your wife gain when she declined your advances?
I think it's one of two things, or a combination of the two.

1. Not attracted.
2. Shiit test.

Once you are as attractive as you can possibly be and you still get turned down every once in a while, something else is up.
My own personal experience tells me that my particular wife likes sexual tension. If everything is peaches and cream, it's not enough.
She still likes to know that I might not be interested, I might just throw in the towel and go get it somewhere else.

In real fact, I will not cheat and she is probably 99% certain of that. However, when things are great (in my mind) and she is 100% certain of my affection, that's when the sexual rejection may happen. If I act needy when rebuffed that's a -1. If I act like I could give a shiit it's a +2 and she comes back after me.

What a strange creature I am married to.

BTW: This is a specific example. Not discounting real issues like sickness, tiredness, period, etc.


----------



## nirvana

UMP said:


> I agree with what you say. I can see your point in the work place, etc. What about married life? What is there to gain? What did your wife gain when she declined your advances?
> I think it's one of two things, or a combination of the two.
> 
> 1. Not attracted.
> 2. Shiit test.
> 
> Once you are as attractive as you can possibly be and you still get turned down every once in a while, something else is up.
> My own personal experience tells me that my particular wife likes sexual tension. If everything is peaches and cream, it's not enough.
> She still likes to know that I might not be interested, I might just throw in the towel and go get it somewhere else.
> 
> In real fact, I will not cheat and she is probably 99% certain of that. However, when things are great (in my mind) and she is 100% certain of my affection, that's when the sexual rejection may happen. If I act needy when rebuffed that's a -1. If I act like I could give a shiit it's a +2 and she comes back after me.
> 
> What a strange creature I am married to.
> 
> BTW: This is a specific example. Not discounting real issues like sickness, tiredness, period, etc.


My personal belief is that women primarily desire sex to make babies. Once they have reached a stage in their mind where they don't want to have more babies, then sex becomes a chore and a favor they grant their husbands. Men by nature want sex all the time until they are able to physically. Now many women will deny this but empirical evidence everywhere including this forum bears this out. This is true even in my case. When my wife wanted to have our second child, she used to initiate all the time, even when I would get back home from grad school (school was after a full day's work) so I would get back at 11pm. She would want to have sex because it was her "most fertile time". Nowadays, she never initiates and we never have sex more than once a week. Sometimes once every 2 weeks.

What is the reason? "Not attracted"? I don't think so. I am still tall and slim and have no paunch and have all my hair and all that. I eat well and take care of my health. Yes, I need to get more muscular but I was never Mr Muscles to begin with. Shiit test, maybe. 

The point, is that she knows that I will not cheat. Maybe she think that I *cannot* cheat because I think she sometimes has a low opinion of me because of her own low self esteem (so that translates into "everything I have sucks"). But I can cheat if I put my morals out of the window and try to. I am Indian living in the US, so it makes it harder but I can if I tried. I have had several Indian (married) ladies show interest and it is possible that I could have taken that somewhere.

So yes, sex is currency. Just like anything else in life. Women are more adept at using this currency than men.


----------



## UMP

nirvana said:


> My personal belief is that women primarily desire sex to make babies. Once they have reached a stage in their mind where they don't want to have more babies, then sex becomes a chore and a favor they grant their husbands. Men by nature want sex all the time until they are able to physically. Now many women will deny this but empirical evidence everywhere including this forum bears this out. This is true even in my case. When my wife wanted to have our second child, she used to initiate all the time, even when I would get back home from grad school (school was after a full day's work) so I would get back at 11pm. She would want to have sex because it was her "most fertile time". Nowadays, she never initiates and we never have sex more than once a week. Sometimes once every 2 weeks.
> 
> What is the reason? "Not attracted"? I don't think so. I am still tall and slim and have no paunch and have all my hair and all that. I eat well and take care of my health. Yes, I need to get more muscular but I was never Mr Muscles to begin with. Shiit test, maybe.
> 
> The point, is that she knows that I will not cheat. Maybe she think that I *cannot* cheat because I think she sometimes has a low opinion of me because of her own low self esteem (so that translates into "everything I have sucks"). But I can cheat if I put my morals out of the window and try to. I am Indian living in the US, so it makes it harder but I can if I tried. I have had several Indian (married) ladies show interest and it is possible that I could have taken that somewhere.
> 
> So yes, sex is currency. Just like anything else in life. Women are more adept at using this currency than men.


In this case, it is basic economics 101. Supply and demand.
However, if the currency becomes useless all bets are off. The only thing that works if I am denied sex is for me to completely give a shiit, then the "currency" becomes useless. This is VERY DIFFICULT for the average man, including myself. Years and years of pouting got me nowhere.

Now, I just brush it off, pout on TAM and she comes back after me.:laugh:

Thanks for being here TAM !


----------



## nirvana

UMP said:


> In this case, it is basic economics 101. Supply and demand.
> However, if the currency becomes useless all bets are off. The only thing that works if I am denied sex is for me to completely give a shiit, then the "currency" becomes useless. This is VERY DIFFICULT for the average man, including myself. Years and years of pouting got me nowhere.
> 
> Now, I just brush it off, pout on TAM and she comes back after me.:laugh:
> 
> Thanks for being here TAM !


Exactly!

Now I don't pout or show that I care when she rejects me, I just stop making moves and go to sleep. Within 10 minutes, she feels bad and turns over to my side and holds my hand etc. It does not turn into sex though, just a few times some years ago. If I get pissed at her, she gets a reason to justify her rejections and portray me as the bad person who wants sex when tired ol her just wants some rest.


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## SimplyAmorous

nirvana said:


> *My personal belief is that women primarily desire sex to make babies. Once they have reached a stage in their mind where they don't want to have more babies, then sex becomes a chore and a favor they grant their husbands. *Men by nature want sex all the time until they are able to physically. Now many women will deny this but empirical evidence everywhere including this forum bears this out. This is true even in my case. When my wife wanted to have our second child, she used to initiate all the time, even when I would get back home from grad school (school was after a full day's work) so I would get back at 11pm. She would want to have sex because it was her "most fertile time". Nowadays, she never initiates and we never have sex more than once a week. Sometimes once every 2 weeks.


Here are my thoughts on this...every woman is unique, we are all a little different in what does it for us...and every man has his work cut out for him...to unlock her erotic potential...

Speaking for myself here......I was never one who felt sex was a chore.. I also never had a headache or was too tired.. my husband would attest to this...however.. yrs of infertility didn't help... though I remember feeling gypped when trying for the girl (experts say you have a higher chance if the woman withholds her orgasm - so that's what I'd do - HATED THAT !)... 

During that phase.. I cared more about his sperm over his pleasure.. and I cared more about conceiving over my own...I did become very one tract minded.. this went on for over 6 yrs trying....yet still I loved sex & getting off. 

My husband is more on the passive side.. but one thing he KNEW.. or he should have...once he got me started... he better not stop.. or I'd be pi$$ed.. I wanted it !

True (back then)...I was a bit like a crock pot sometimes -as the urgency wasn't there as often as it was FOR HIM .... as I felt "satisfied" for days without lust coming over me -unless something stirred that (reading a hot romance, seeing an R rated sex scene -this always put me in the mood..I'd be after him then!).... 

I've since learned... the ability to stir my own lusts have always been there...







.. I just wasn't focusing on them.. 

I do this A LOT today.. because I love love love connecting with my husband...it's like a high... why wait if you can arouse each other ...it just feels so good. 

I think if a woman is orgasmic and she craves the emotional connection with her husband (any resentment can destroy this)...she's never going to look at sex as a chore...it's something that enthuses her whole being ...makes her feel alive, very happy & close to her man....

On another note... It's true if I don't get my orgasm.. I feel a little let down (like damn it.. I wanted that!).... back in the day... He could accommodate that & we'd just do it again about a half hour later.. but today.. I'd have to wait till he had a good night's sleep or give him a viagra & see what happens.. I'd feel that's too pressuring... so I wait.. 

I've always felt men GENERALLY have a higher sex drive... if we're going by statistics , marital suffering...that sort of thing...though our roles can switch in mid life too... a variety of women can attest.. myself being one of them...I opened up this discussion in my thread here...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-compare-whats-your-take-your-experience.html

Not that it really matters I guess.. so many things can interrupt the natural flow of how it should be... from resentment, to repression, to stress, also meds interfering with our hormones.. etc etc.


----------



## jld

nirvana said:


> My personal belief is that women primarily desire sex to make babies. Once they have reached a stage in their mind where they don't want to have more babies, then sex becomes a chore and a favor they grant their husbands.


I disagree with this. Yes, there is physical pleasure in sex, but there is emotional pleasure, too. When the relationship is good, why would a woman not want to be close to her man in this way?

If anything, I think having the kids grow up and be more independent allows a couple more time to deepen their relationship and have more frequent, loving, and connected intercourse.


----------



## Wolf1974

I also disagree that women loose thier interest in sex after babies. I have been cut almost my entire "second life of dating" and never had a women not desire to have sex with me. Can't speak for in a marriage but I don't know why that would change.


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## nirvana

Wolf1974 said:


> I also disagree that women loose thier interest in sex after babies. I have been cut almost my entire "second life of dating" and never had a women not desire to have sex with me. Can't speak for in a marriage but I don't know why that would change.


Well, you need to fulfill all the conditions to get to the "result" that I am talking about.

Being married is the most important one. When one is married, there is a certain amount of taking your partner for granted, because he/she is "stuck" to you and no easy escape. I know, what I say is not really romantic but that is what happens in the real world. If someone is not attracted to you anymore and is not married, they just leave. Not so easy in a marriage.

So please get married, have kids, and then come back and let me know how things are.


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## ConanHub

My wife and I have been together over 24 years and she hasn't been able to have children since our second son was born in 1995.

She does not turn me down and loves having sex with me.

She receives me as often as her body will take it.

Almost daily.

She would play all day if she could take it physically.

I can get her to go from zero to 100 in a moment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974

nirvana said:


> Well, you need to fulfill all the conditions to get to the "result" that I am talking about.
> 
> Being married is the most important one. When one is married, there is a certain amount of taking your partner for granted, because he/she is "stuck" to you and no easy escape. I know, what I say is not really romantic but that is what happens in the real world. If someone is not attracted to you anymore and is not married, they just leave. Not so easy in a marriage.
> 
> So please get married, have kids, and then come back and let me know how things are.


Well since you are making assumptions glad to answer.

I have been married. We have two kids. Had no issue with attraction and or having sex....

I am in the real world and never ever hard a sexless relationship lol


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## nirvana

Wolf1974 said:


> Well since you are making assumptions glad to answer.
> 
> I have been married. We have two kids. Had no issue with attraction and or having sex....
> 
> I am in the real world and never ever hard a sexless relationship lol



Well you were the one who said "Can't speak for in a marriage", so I'm not the one making the assumptions.

So looks like your life is great. Good for you.


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## Wolf1974

nirvana said:


> Well you were the one who said "Can't speak for in a marriage", so I'm not the one making the assumptions.
> 
> So looks like your life is great. Good for you.


I was referring to the inability to make babies from your post. If you read the rest of it I stated that I got my vasectomy after and into my second dating life. I didn't have one while married so I don't know how or if that would affect a woman's attraction to me since I "can't make babies". I do know that I wouldn't be married to any woman not interested in having sex thought.

The life is going great. Definitely enjoying the single life >


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## nirvana

ConanHub said:


> My wife and I have been together over 24 years and she hasn't been able to have children since our second son was born in 1995.
> 
> She does not turn me down and loves having sex with me.
> 
> She receives me as often as her body will take it.
> 
> Almost daily.
> 
> She would play all day if she could take it physically.
> 
> I can get her to go from zero to 100 in a moment.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lucky you.
But unfortunately just Conan does not make up the complete data set. Your wife seems more like an outlier going by what I read on here.


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## nirvana

Wolf1974 said:


> I was referring to the inability to make babies from your post. If you read the rest of it I stated that I got my vasectomy after and into my second dating life. I didn't have one while married so I don't know how or if that would affect a woman's attraction to me since I "can't make babies". I do know that I wouldn't be married to any woman not interested in having sex thought.
> 
> The life is going great. Definitely enjoying the single life >


I was referring to my observances of an average marriage. There are always nuances. From what I see in a marriage, the woman's interest in sex reduces/disappears after she is done having the kids she wants. 
Feel free to disagree, but that is what I see and read.


----------



## Wolf1974

nirvana said:


> I was referring to my observances of an average marriage. There are always nuances. From what I see in a marriage, the woman's interest in sex reduces/disappears after she is done having the kids she wants.
> Feel free to disagree, but that is what I see and read.


Ok yeah we definetly see things differently then. What I see here when relationships go sexless, when it never was before, it's because it becomes acceptable to the couple.

I see sexless couples in two ways. 

One it was always that way and they get married then one or both complain about it afterward. If you put a high priority on sex and marry someone who you know doesn't then you are in for a rocky road of your own design in my opinion

The second is when something changes over time. So you have hot and heavy sex for years then it goes away. For example we will use your women have babies. Over a period of time if both are interesting in having sex they will make time and energy for it. It's not always covienant mind you. I remember having plenty of quickies while my daughters took thier afternoon naps. But that was what time we both had available and both had energy. 

Most the time I see guys here who are in sexless marriages they complain about it, are angry about it, get depressed over it but what they never do is anything about it. They refuse to leave the marriage if it doesn't get resolved. So I put that on the person who wants it the most. If you won't do something to include leaving then are are bargaining with nothing. 

That's the only reason I have never been in a sexless relationship. I make it known, literally having the conversation about I won't have a intimate relationships with someone who isn't interested in sex, with any woman I am with. I have had to follow through once and leave a relationship because she was using sex as a weapon and doggie treat to get what she wants. I wasn't having that at all.


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## SimplyAmorous

My husband comes home telling me the things that goes on at work... the way these co-workers talk.. a # of them are always complaining their wives never want it. .. but at the same time...he tells me about all their drama.. how they whine & complain, backbite each other...

We only get to hear one side of the story.. I've said to him on occasion.... "imagine being married to so & so" ! 

From all I gather.. it seems *Resentment* is the #1 killer of intimacy... which can take on endless forms...


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## bandit.45

Should a man hide his insecurities? Would that be lying? 

What is worse? Lying or being insecure?


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## theworkwidow

My marriage is falling apart I believe because my husband carries a great deal of insecurities due to his career history. Strangely enough after reading this thread I think he is the secure one and I am the insecure one in our marriage.

I don't know as I have a lot to add to this conversation, but after reading through it, I would really appreciate it if some of the regular posters here might be willing to weigh in on my thread.


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## bandit.45

OliviaG said:


> I don't think those are the only two choices. I think people should try to be who they genuinely are, not be deceptive. Whatever you're insecure about you should do your best to address, over time.


Yeah but should I hide it while I am addressing it?


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## bandit.45

OliviaG said:


> No, I think you should be genuinely who you are. But you want to try to keep it in perspective, i.e. not let it take over your life or let it take on more significance in your life than it deserves. You should trust your partner to help you with that. I think that kind of vulnerability strengthens a relationship. It's when a person seems committed to staying in a disfunctional mindset or feeding an insecurity that it can wreck a relationship, IMO.


Hmm.

Is it a man's common insecurities, in general, that a woman has a problem with, or just certain types of insecurities? 

Or is it just the amount of emotional energy a man spends on dwelling on those insecurities that turns a woman off?


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## bandit.45

OliviaG said:


> I don't know, it's probably hard to make a blanket statement. I think that what's off-putting is when someone hangs on to their insecurities and won't do anything to address them. Or pretends they don't have them and lash out at others to deflect any attention to them.


Okay. Thank you for the insight.


----------



## Livvie

I'll give an example. I was with a man who had such negative reactions to daily things, due to his insecurities, that I could not continue in the relationship. When his insecurities were triggered (and they were triggered by things that the average person wouldn't think twice about for even a second) he would lash out, and then demand an apology for making him feel that way.

Example: he has a habit of eating w his hands, greasy food items. When done eating, hands would be covered in grease and food particles. I suffered through grease all over my house (cupboard handles, fridge, microwave, upholstery). My hands would get greasy touching items in my own house and furniture was getting soiled. I gave gentle hints ("I'm getting a napkin, I'll bring you one too") and I would wash my hands if greasy, kind of like modeling the behavior. He didn't catch on. Finally I asked him (in a very nice way) if he would please wash his hands after eating greasy items. His extreme emotional reaction to my request and inability to deal w his emotions over my request was a complete turn off.


----------



## I Don't Know

Livvie said:


> I'll give an example. I was with a man who had such negative reactions to daily things, due to his insecurities, that I could not continue in the relationship. When his insecurities were triggered (and they were triggered by things that the average person wouldn't think twice about for even a second) he would lash out, and then demand an apology for making him feel that way.
> 
> Example: he has a habit of eating w his hands, greasy food items. When done eating, hands would be covered in grease and food particles. I suffered through grease all over my house (cupboard handles, fridge, microwave, upholstery). My hands would get greasy touching items in my own house and furniture was getting soiled. I gave gentle hints ("I'm getting a napkin, I'll bring you one too") and I would wash my hands if greasy, kind of like modeling the behavior. He didn't catch on. Finally I asked him (in a very nice way) if he would please wash his hands after eating greasy items. His extreme emotional reaction to my request and inability to deal w his emotions over my request was a complete turn off.


That sounds more like nasty or disgusting than insecure.


----------



## nirvana

When do we discuss a woman's insecurities? Or is that for a different thread? 

Women are insecure about so many things that are off putting. Women always seem to compare their lives to others and feel low about what they don't have instead of being happy about what they do have. Many are jealous about other women (sister, friend, cousin etc) when it comes to career, fashion, looks, education, status. 

I see these every day. I have tried to educate my wife about how to look at the positive side and how she has enjoyed many things that others do not, but I have been unsuccessful. I remember my mother criticizing Aishwarya Rai's (Miss World 1994 and movie star) looks back when she won those contests. My cousin (male) and I could not believe it. 

When my wife was a SAHM, she would always tell me instances to prove how great of a mom she was. Yes, I get it. Then she would compare the time she spent with the kids to how much I did (I was the only bread-winner and was doing grad school also along with working a FT job). That was highly unattractive and came across as exhibiting low self esteem. No need to disrespect other's contributions to make oneself feel good. If I was making half the money, she would have had to go to work to make up. During that time, conversations with her would be boring. All she talked about was our kids and what they did. It was much more fun talking to her sister when she visited with her family. She was always working, and had kids and was easier to relate to and didn't have all the "I am a SAHM and feel inferior" issue that my wife had. She is much better now, but it still surfaces sometimes.

As a non-white in America, it is very hard to grow in your career. It's not just me, but the same thing for other Indian guys my age. We are seen as "tech savvy" but not leaders. We are not given opportunities to show what we can do. So that gets me down sometimes. Should I share this with my wife or should I be afraid she will see me as insecure? I have stopped sharing my fears and worries for the past 4 years or so because of this.

My point is that both men and women have insecurities. This is a normal human trait. Why is it that men are supposed to be perfect when women are not? Can you tell me one person who has never been insecure about anything? Why are we even discussing this thread?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

bandit.45 said:


> Should a man hide his insecurities? Would that be lying?
> 
> What is worse? Lying or being insecure?


Here's my take.. I'd have more respect.. even understanding for a man who can tell me his STORY.. .the good, the bad & the ugly... (let's say he's been cheated on in the past, lied to by previous ex's)...maybe she even cheated with one of his good buddies... talk about sticking the knife in & moving it around!

I'd have some compassion on anyone who's had sh** things happen to them that they didn't bring on - by other selfish unscrupulous people.... if this has left some scars, some insecure baggage.. it's going to make sense to me ! 

I'd be appreciative they opened up with me. 

I'd choose this over them not willing to go there...sharing their story...how it may have affected them.. I can see ANYONE struggling with some trust issues, being more cautious ...after such experiences...

The type of insecurities I would have BIG problems with are.. "controlling behaviors" or always trying to one UP someone - like they need the upper hand...have this NEED to come out on Top.. can't loose... putting others down to lift themselves UP... these too spell insecurity.. 

But yeah.. give me the man who can have a deep talk about Life ...who he is, where he is...*being honest*...over the one who's trying to come off as Superman...but inside is hiding a part of himself... when really he's just as human as the rest of us.. and has his "soft spots".


----------



## SimplyAmorous

OliviaG said:


> As for insecurities, yes, both sexes have them. Who says that men are supposed to be perfect and women are not? That might be a view that some men have, but women don't expect it.* Intimacy means being vulnerable to one another. I think that's harder for men than it is for women, because we don't feel the need to be "manly". But even if you have to look impervious to the outside world, your wife should be the one person that you can be absolutely honest with about whatever is on your mind. And she needs to be trustworthy with whatever you confide in her.*
> 
> *I just recently had a conversation with my husband when he was having trouble admitting something to me that he was struggling with and it was causing me all kinds of anxiety trying to figure out what was bothering him. I said "I'm your wife, I've always had your back and I always will, so tell me what's going on!!!!!" When he finally got it out, we both felt a whole lot better. *
> 
> *I do not see it as weakness, I see it as strength when a person feels able to be vulnerable to their spouse. You're supposed to be a team. You're supposed to work to lift each other up. You're supposed to provide clarity for each other about things that are too sensitive to admit to the rest of the world. If you keep these things locked away, your thinking about them can become distorted and these insecurities can take on a life of their own. Telling your spouse gives her a chance to give you a reality check on whether or not your thinking has gotten carried away. It takes the rawness out of the worry when you have someone you trust to share it with. One of the best things about marriage is having someone you can count on to help you through the rough parts of life.*


Wonderfully explained @OliviaG - couldn't agree more so.. that's how it works.. or should work...


----------



## farsidejunky

spotthedeaddog said:


> Behavior that's the 'kiss of death' for a relationship - Business Insider
> 
> Generally I'd have to say "yes" to the "insecure man"
> 
> But, let me say this, what are women contributing to the relationship to fix that? Many women I know are very much parasites when it comes to developing the relationship, he is supposed to be this friggin' godking alpha male with all the money, success, etc (heck just read 50 Shades of Grey, or Twilight crap). When the world turns out to be nicer in girl town, than it does having to fight for scraps with the other males, then the guy is usually labelled as "insecure" and that translates to "freely dumpable, ok to trade up"
> 
> that's why several men's advice here has been you want to keep the relationship? Then you MUST play ALPHA DOG. You must show no weakness, no doubt, and not ask for assistance. You be name called, she will ***** at you, you will be called controlling - but if you show weakness, you will be "insecure" and she will replace you.
> ESPECIALLY if this affects how the "social community" is allowed to see you !!!!! Cry if you must, rend your shirt and hair, but do it alone, where it won't affect her or let others see because once you're "insecure" you're not long a player, just a "resource".


I know I'm a bit behind for quoting this post, but wow brother. Any woman that would trade up for me because of some perceived insecurity is a woman I can surely do without.

There are so many people in this world, there is bound to be someone who will love me despite my faults.

My wife has. But that isn't the hardest part. The hardest part is to remember to extend her the same courtesy.

Losing faith in that simple principle would be a lonely place to be.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## bandit.45

Livvie said:


> I'll give an example. I was with a man who had such negative reactions to daily things, due to his insecurities, that I could not continue in the relationship. When his insecurities were triggered (and they were triggered by things that the average person wouldn't think twice about for even a second) he would lash out, and then demand an apology for making him feel that way.
> 
> Example: he has a habit of eating w his hands, greasy food items. When done eating, hands would be covered in grease and food particles. I suffered through grease all over my house (cupboard handles, fridge, microwave, upholstery). My hands would get greasy touching items in my own house and furniture was getting soiled. I gave gentle hints ("I'm getting a napkin, I'll bring you one too") and I would wash my hands if greasy, kind of like modeling the behavior. He didn't catch on. Finally I asked him (in a very nice way) if he would please wash his hands after eating greasy items. His extreme emotional reaction to my request and inability to deal w his emotions over my request was a complete turn off.


He wasn't insecure. He was gross.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I Don't Know said:


> *That sounds more like nasty or disgusting than insecure*.





bandit.45 said:


> *He wasn't insecure. He was gross.*


Yeah reading that.. he was secure enough to be his "greasy" self not really worrying if she'd get ticked or say anything.. maybe a little too confident in his "skeeviness".


----------



## Anon Pink

bandit.45 said:


> Hmm.
> 
> Is it a man's common insecurities, in general, that a woman has a problem with, or just certain types of insecurities?
> 
> Or is it just the amount of emotional energy a man spends on dwelling on those insecurities that turns a woman off?


It's the amount of emotional energy he puts into compensating for those insecurities, hiding them, or worse pretending he's all that when some humility would actually go a very long way.

There is good dwelling and bad dwelling. Good dwelling is when you take time to understand where it comes from, how reasonable is it, how helpful it would be to NOT be insecure about something, and then balancing between saying "fvcking it I am who I am" and saying, "work in progress."


----------



## Anon Pink

nirvana said:


> When do we discuss a woman's insecurities? Or is that for a different thread?
> 
> Women are insecure about so many things that are off putting. Women always seem to compare their lives to others and feel low about what they don't have instead of being happy about what they do have. Many are jealous about other women (sister, friend, cousin etc) when it comes to career, fashion, looks, education, status.
> 
> I see these every day. I have tried to educate my wife about how to look at the positive side and how she has enjoyed many things that others do not, but I have been unsuccessful. I remember my mother criticizing Aishwarya Rai's (Miss World 1994 and movie star) looks back when she won those contests. My cousin (male) and I could not believe it.
> 
> When my wife was a SAHM, she would always tell me instances to prove how great of a mom she was. Yes, I get it. Then she would compare the time she spent with the kids to how much I did (I was the only bread-winner and was doing grad school also along with working a FT job). That was highly unattractive and came across as exhibiting low self esteem. No need to disrespect other's contributions to make oneself feel good. If I was making half the money, she would have had to go to work to make up. During that time, conversations with her would be boring. All she talked about was our kids and what they did. It was much more fun talking to her sister when she visited with her family. She was always working, and had kids and was easier to relate to and didn't have all the "I am a SAHM and feel inferior" issue that my wife had. She is much better now, but it still surfaces sometimes.
> 
> As a non-white in America, it is very hard to grow in your career. It's not just me, but the same thing for other Indian guys my age. We are seen as "tech savvy" but not leaders. We are not given opportunities to show what we can do. So that gets me down sometimes. Should I share this with my wife or should I be afraid she will see me as insecure? I have stopped sharing my fears and worries for the past 4 years or so because of this.
> 
> My point is that both men and women have insecurities. This is a normal human trait. Why is it that men are supposed to be perfect when women are not? Can you tell me one person who has never been insecure about anything? Why are we even discussing this thread?



1. Please reaquaint yourself with the title of this thread.

2. Perhaps it is just women from your culture who are as shallow as you seem to attribute to every woman? I honestly do not presently know one single woman who is as shallow and self centered as you describe your wife to be.


----------



## bandit.45

Anon Pink said:


> It's the amount of emotional energy he puts into compensating for those insecurities, hiding them, or worse pretending he's all that when some humility would actually go a very long way.
> 
> There is good dwelling and bad dwelling. Good dwelling is when you take time to understand where it comes from, how reasonable is it, how helpful it would be to NOT be insecure about something, and then balancing between saying "fvcking it I am who I am" and saying, "work in progress."


Okay. Thank you. I'm keeping notes to add to "Bandits Book of Luv".


----------



## bandit.45

A problem that I have always had with women is that I am a naturally self-deprecating person. There was a Tall Poppy culture in my family....if someone got too haughty or snotty he or she would get smacked down hard. That's the mindset I grew up operating under. 

I think my existence on this planet is quite literally hilarious, when I look back on the totality of my life. I'm a doofus. I've done some stupid sh!t and I am honestly surprised I lived past age 12. I make fun of myself a lot, and some women I have dated see this as insecurity, when it is not insecurity. Not at all. I'm very secure in who I am, but I have never taken myself seriously, because, well, I don't take anyone else very seriously either. 

I actually had an ex-girlfriend chastise me because she thought I was cutting myself down. I didn't see it that way at all. I do a lot of "self checking" and I usually fail my own scrutiny. But it's not insecurity. It is just my nature to poke fun at myself and look for cracks in my own self image.


----------



## Livvie

SimplyAmorous said:


> I Don't Know said:
> 
> 
> 
> *That sounds more like nasty or disgusting than insecure*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bandit.45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *He wasn't insecure. He was gross.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah reading that.. he was secure enough to be his "greasy" self not really worrying if she'd get ticked or say anything.. maybe a little too confident in his "skeeviness".
Click to expand...

Arrogant and secure and/or oblivious enough to be a pig and not care what he ruined or " left behind" with the greasy food laden hands... but insecure enough that when I asked him to clean his hands after eating, that the asking triggered an INsecurity----he couldn't handle the request, because it was a request to change something about himself, which meant it was something I didn't like. 

As a female, this extreme insecure reaction from a male made me feel unsettled inside and like retreating from him. Not someone I can trust. The same reaction to my request from a female would just make me angry, I think.


----------



## Anon Pink

bandit.45 said:


> A problem that I have always had with women is that I am a naturally self-deprecating person. There was a Tall Poppy culture in my family....if someone got too haughty or snotty he or she would get smacked down hard. That's the mindset I grew up operating under.
> 
> I think my existence on this planet is quite literally hilarious, when I look back on the totality of my life. I'm a doofus. I've done some stupid sh!t and I am honestly surprised I lived past age 12. I make fun of myself a lot, and some women I have dated see this as insecurity, when it is not insecurity. Not at all. I'm very secure in who I am, but I have never taken myself seriously, because, well, I don't take anyone else very seriously either.
> 
> I actually had an ex-girlfriend chastise me because she thought I was cutting myself down. I didn't see it that way at all. I do a lot of "self checking" and I usually fail my own scrutiny. But it's not insecurity. It is just my nature to poke fun at myself and look for cracks in my own self image.


Self deprecating humor can be over done...I guess. Actually I think it's usually funny as hell most of the time. Never take yourself too seriously. Maybe your ex GF took herself too seriously?

My late brother and his friends were kings of self deprecating humor. OMG they were so funny! Almost Recovered reminds me of my brother and his sense of humor.


----------



## EVG39

Intheory while I am certain UMP would like it otherwise his experience is not necessarily an outlier. It is common. It is something I have observed in my marriage and in listening to other men talk about theirs. That doesn't mean it is utopia just our reality.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheTruthHurts

EVG39 said:


> Intheory while I am certain UMP would like it otherwise his experience is not necessarily an outlier. It is common. It is something I have observed in my marriage and in listening to other men talk about theirs. That doesn't mean it is utopia just our reality.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sucks for you two but not a common perspective, I would think. At least from my perspective


----------



## EVG39

No more sucks than it sucks that the sky is blue or water is wet


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NotEasy

bandit.45 said:


> A problem that I have always had with women is that I am a naturally self-deprecating person. There was a Tall Poppy culture in my family....if someone got too haughty or snotty he or she would get smacked down hard. That's the mindset I grew up operating under.
> 
> I think my existence on this planet is quite literally hilarious, when I look back on the totality of my life. I'm a doofus. I've done some stupid sh!t and I am honestly surprised I lived past age 12. I make fun of myself a lot, and some women I have dated see this as insecurity, when it is not insecurity. Not at all. I'm very secure in who I am, but I have never taken myself seriously, because, well, I don't take anyone else very seriously either.
> 
> I actually had an ex-girlfriend chastise me because she thought I was cutting myself down. I didn't see it that way at all. I do a lot of "self checking" and I usually fail my own scrutiny. But it's not insecurity. It is just my nature to poke fun at myself and look for cracks in my own self image.


Bandit I thought you were American. Only an old school Australian could have written your post. Cutting down tall poppies is a national past-time here.

Come on over and get out into the back country. We have women here who understand the difference between insecure men and self deprecating men. And they appreciate / laugh with / understand the later.

Stupidly, I married a women who doesn't really get self deprecation. I still have to be a little guarded around her at times. Not how it should be. On balance though, in many other ways she does 'get me', so I am definitely not complaining. It is just that she still doesn't get self deprecation. 

This thread has left me wondering does she interpret my self deprecation as insecurity. Probably not, but I am still thinking.


----------



## bandit.45

NotEasy said:


> Bandit I thought you were American. Only an old school Australian could have written your post. Cutting down tall poppies is a national past-time here.
> 
> Come on over and get out into the back country. We have women here who understand the difference between insecure men and self deprecating men. And they appreciate / laugh with / understand the later.
> 
> Stupidly, I married a women who doesn't really get self deprecation. I still have to be a little guarded around her at times. Not how it should be. On balance though, in many other ways she does 'get me', so I am definitely not complaining. It is just that she still doesn't get self deprecation.
> 
> This thread has left me wondering does she interpret my self deprecation as insecurity. Probably not, but I am still thinking.


I didn't know that saying was Australian. I heard it used many many years ago to describe egalitarian societies. Never knew it came from Oz.

One of my goals is to visit your awesome country one day. I have several Aussie friends and they are all top notch people. And Aussie rock bands are fantastic....


----------



## ocotillo

EVG39 said:


> Can a man safely crumple in front of his wife? I dunno know Intheory. My heart says he should be able to but the more I live the more I wonder....


The one and only time I ever saw my father shed tears was absolutely gut wrenching, but that's because none of us had ever seen it before. (Or since.)

If we had lived in the Middle East, Greece, Armenia or any of a dozen other places where it is fairly common for men to shed tears it would have been no big deal.

On that basis, I respectfully disagree with evo-psych spins on this subject. The Northern European "stoic male" is not the norm in huge portions of the world.


----------



## tech-novelist

ocotillo said:


> The one and only time I ever saw my father shed tears was absolutely gut wrenching, but that's because none of us had ever seen it before. (Or since.)
> 
> If we had lived in the Middle East, Greece, Armenia or any of a dozen other places where it is fairly common for men to shed tears it would have been no big deal.
> 
> On that basis, I respectfully disagree with evo-psych spins on this subject. The Northern European "stoic male" is not the norm in huge portions of the world.


I understand that women behave differently in many other countries as well. Maybe there is a correlation?


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## SimplyAmorous

My husband is a very sensitive guy... I refer to him on the Beta side all the time (he should probably kick me for this) but still.. I've never seen him break down except for some tears of missing a loved one.. at 2 funerals (not a break down but Tears of sadness) over a friend and his father.. and he's gotten tears over feelings of Love (romantic moments, hearing "Cats in the Cradle will do it too!)..

I see these as more vulnerable and beautiful though.. no Meltdowns... or Loosing control in anyway.. I am very thankful for this.. 

He is such a calm dude.. I have even argued he needs more OOMMPPH but I guess if he had too much.. that might backfire on me.. and I may , too, find it "over the top" for a man.. Us women surely DO appreciate a man standing tall in the storms of life. I am surely more emotional - over him.. he tells me to "get a grip"... I think he loves being that Light house for me... and of course this draws me to him.. 

I have not read much about this evo-psych thing.. Someone should do a thread on this.. how many views are there.. the feminist view and the Traditional view warring at each other ?.. the argument that CULTURE has determined these things.. yet many of us want to say they are ingrained.. this forum always has me looking things up !


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## NotEasy

bandit.45 said:


> I didn't know that saying was Australian. I heard it used many many years ago to describe egalitarian societies. Never knew it came from Oz.
> 
> One of my goals is to visit your awesome country one day. I have several Aussie friends and they are all top notch people. And Aussie rock bands are fantastic....


I assume "Cutting down tall poppies" is an Aussie saying because I grew up with it. And 5 minutes on Google shows so mostly .au pages. But we steal ideas from everywhere.

Self deprecation is a defense against being cut down as a tall poppy, but one that can only be effectively done by someone who is secure.


----------



## heartsbeating

bandit.45 said:


> A problem that I have always had with women is that I am a naturally self-deprecating person. There was a Tall Poppy culture in my family....if someone got too haughty or snotty he or she would get smacked down hard. That's the mindset I grew up operating under.
> 
> I think my existence on this planet is quite literally hilarious, when I look back on the totality of my life. I'm a doofus. I've done some stupid sh!t and I am honestly surprised I lived past age 12. I make fun of myself a lot, and some women I have dated see this as insecurity, when it is not insecurity. Not at all. I'm very secure in who I am, but I have never taken myself seriously, because, well, I don't take anyone else very seriously either.
> 
> I actually had an ex-girlfriend chastise me because she thought I was cutting myself down. I didn't see it that way at all. I do a lot of "self checking" and I usually fail my own scrutiny. But it's not insecurity. It is just my nature to poke fun at myself and look for cracks in my own self image.


I'm used to self-deprecating humor being part of the culture and grew up with down-playing pretty much everything. Even though I'm used to it, I'll admit at times I feel it does stem from a place of insecurity. From my perspective, there's a fine line... as there can also be an authenticity (an amusing one at that) that is humbling and refreshing which is present with feeling secure.

Accepting the cracks makes all the difference. I've read some of your posts that come across that way.


----------



## heartsbeating

My husband may include me with what he's going through, insecurities and doubts - and I cherish that. Then observing how he challenges himself, overcomes and/or accepts, is where I experience his resilience. I admire that.


----------



## always_alone

heartsbeating said:


> My husband may include me with what he's going through, insecurities and doubts - and I cherish that. Then observing how he challenges himself, overcomes and/or accepts, is where I experience his resilience. I admire that.


My SO shares his feelings pretty freely, and I wouldn't have it any other way. In some ways he is more emotional than I am, but I do not see why that might be equated with insecurity.

Men throughout history and throughout the world have written poems and love songs, indeed some great literature, expressing their sadness when left alone, their grief when someone dies, their pain when they or others close to them are wounded, their fear in adversity, their self-doubt in times of challenge, their despondency in unrequited love.

Would anyone think of these men as insecure and unappealing because of this? I can't think why.


----------



## jld

always_alone said:


> Would anyone think of these men as insecure and unappealing because of this? I can't think why.


Dug says there is nothing wrong with men sharing their feelings. It is when men expect women to take responsibility for those feelings that the problems arise.

But some women might be okay with that.


----------



## bandit.45

heartsbeating said:


> I'm used to self-deprecating humor being part of the culture and grew up with down-playing pretty much everything. Even though I'm used to it, I'll admit at times I feel it does stem from a place of insecurity. From my perspective, there's a fine line... as there can also be an authenticity (an amusing one at that) that is humbling and refreshing which is present with feeling secure.
> 
> Accepting the cracks makes all the difference. I've read some of your posts that come across that way.



I only met one person in my life who was completely secure about himself, with no hangups or insecurities... 

He was a sociopath and the school bully who terrorized my elementary school. He was two years ahead of me and I watched him devastate just about every kid in that school system...boys and girls. 

Since 1991 he has been serving a life sentence at the Arizona State pen for burglary and rape.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> Dug says there is nothing wrong with men sharing their feelings. *It is when men expect women to take responsibility for those feelings that the problems arise.
> *
> But some women might be okay with that.


Please clarify this. I don't understand.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> Please clarify this. I don't understand.


He will have to speak for himself for us to know for sure. My understanding is that it is fine for a man to feel hurt, sad, scared, etc., and to share that with his wife. But when he blames her and expects her to make it all better, he may be asking for too much.


----------



## heartsbeating

always_alone said:


> My SO shares his feelings pretty freely, and I wouldn't have it any other way. In some ways he is more emotional than I am, but I do not see why that might be equated with insecurity.
> 
> Men throughout history and throughout the world have written poems and love songs, indeed some great literature, expressing their sadness when left alone, their grief when someone dies, their pain when they or others close to them are wounded, their fear in adversity, their self-doubt in times of challenge, their despondency in unrequited love.
> 
> Would anyone think of these men as insecure and unappealing because of this? I can't think why.


I need clarification if you are asking me this question based on what I wrote.

My husband has insecurities and doubts, same as me, same as the next person. I think most of us are a sliding scale at various moments. It's part of what makes him appealing to me - letting me in, knowing him, experiencing how he faces himself, others, life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

heartsbeating said:


> I need clarification if you are asking me this question based on what I wrote.
> 
> My husband has insecurities and doubts, same as me, same as the next person. I think most of us are a sliding scale at various moments. It's part of what makes him appealing to me - letting me in, knowing him, experiencing how he faces himself, others, life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It was meant as a rhetorical questions. From your posts, we see a picture of a woman who values being a confidante to her husband.

I was trying to affirm this, as well as put forward the suggestion that men have not only found ways to express their deepest darkest inner selves, they have done so in many ways throughout history, and have been *celebrated* for it (as opposed to left and despised).


----------



## heartsbeating

Whole-heartedly agree! A whole lot is expressed through literature, art, music, lyrics, dance... All of which require vulnerability and have the means to move us deeply. Most likely because what is expressed is also relatable. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heartsbeating

OliviaG said:


> I said "I'm your wife, I've always had your back and I always will, so tell me what's going on!!!!!" When he finally got it out, we both felt a whole lot better.
> 
> I do not see it as weakness, I see it as strength when a person feels able to be vulnerable to their spouse.


Right on.


----------



## UMP

intheory said:


> So you gave the girl you lost your virginity to one of the most emotionally intense, precious gifts a guy can give a woman; and she dumped you. Wow. Just mind-boggling.
> 
> And you're locked in an emotional prison of sorts with your wife. Same sort of dynamic. I guess you pick 'em UMP.
> 
> I wonder if your mother wanted to reserve that intense emotional connection with you for herself??? There are women like that. Can't stand the idea of the son's wife "taking her place". Maybe not. Maybe she thought that was good advice. Still, I disagree (duh) with her. I believe you should have that emotional link to your wife; it should surpass the one you had with your mother --- or be much different from it.
> 
> Your "whole world could be imploding" !!!, but if you reach out to your WIFE for support; she's not gonna want you anymore.
> 
> Rough couple of weeks at work. You need sympathy and a hug. I'm glad you have TAM too. But TAM is a poor substitute for real human sympathy.
> 
> You've said in other threads that you work very hard to make enough money so that your wife will be attracted to you. Maybe like Anon Pink says, your wife's attitude comes a lot from being caretaker to your child with disabilities. How about spending some of your hard earned money on a visiting nurse; to give your wife as much of a break as possible, so she can devote some emotional energy to you, and you alone??
> 
> Then again, if she's always preferred men who can cut their finger off and "stoically" put it back together with SuperGlue, visiting nurse might not make much of a difference.


It's really not that bad. It's just that sometimes you need to talk to someone and show your vulnerabilities. My wife is NOT that person.
She needs to think I am superman with kryptonite invulnerability.
It's OK. I am used to it.

I offered to give my wife a house cleaner and full time help with our daughter. She refused. She is just as tough as her father :surprise: 

The main thing is that I am sane and happy, for the most part.:laugh:

Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## knobcreek

If a man is vulnerable and opens up emotionally about his insecurities to his wife then he's insecure and weak and she'll leave him/cheat on him. If he's closed off emotionally and doesn't open up about insecurities (EVERYONE has insecurities or is insecure at times) then he's emotionally closed off and she'll have an EA to fill the void. Am I getting the gist right?


----------



## jld

knobcreek said:


> If a man is vulnerable and opens up emotionally about his insecurities to his wife then he's insecure and weak and she'll leave him/cheat on him. If he's closed off emotionally and doesn't open up about insecurities (EVERYONE has insecurities or is insecure at times) then he's emotionally closed off and she'll have an EA to fill the void. Am I getting the gist right?


No.

He can be open about his feelings. He just can't necessarily expect her to take responsibility for those feelings.


----------



## nirvana

knobcreek said:


> If a man is vulnerable and opens up emotionally about his insecurities to his wife then he's insecure and weak and she'll leave him/cheat on him. If he's closed off emotionally and doesn't open up about insecurities (EVERYONE has insecurities or is insecure at times) then he's emotionally closed off and she'll have an EA to fill the void. Am I getting the gist right?



Sounds about right to me.
Either way, the man loses and is blamed.


----------



## jld

nirvana said:


> Sounds about right to me.
> Either way, the man loses and is blamed.


Nirvana. 

_Gently . . . _

Is that how it feels?


----------



## optimalprimus

jld said:


> No.
> 
> He can be open about his feelings. He just can't necessarily expect her to take responsibility for those feelings.


That's your take jld but doesn't fit with the experience of some men on this thread.

And for what its worth, it is unlikely to be healthy for anyone, male or female, to expect someone else to be responsible for their feelings. 

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> It was meant as a rhetorical questions. From your posts, we see a picture of a woman who values being a confidante to her husband.
> 
> I was trying to affirm this, as well as put forward the suggestion that men have not only found ways to express their deepest darkest inner selves, they have done so in many ways throughout history, and have been *celebrated* for it (as opposed to left and despised).


I don't disagree with you at all but isn't it funny how many poems or songs are written by men in failed relationships?

I write songs BTW. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

optimalprimus said:


> That's your take jld but doesn't fit with the experience of some men on this thread.
> 
> And for what its worth, it is unlikely to be healthy for anyone, male or female, to expect someone else to be responsible for their feelings.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


I think it is unhealthy *not* to be able to be open about one's feelings in a relationship. I think transparency builds trust.

I think some women and some men might be okay with taking some degree of responsibility for the feelings of a partner. It shows leadership. 

I agree that *expecting* it is another matter, though.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> I think it is unhealthy *not* to be able to be open about one's feelings in a relationship. I think transparency builds trust.
> 
> I think some women and some men might be okay with taking some degree of responsibility for the feelings of a partner. It shows leadership.
> 
> I agree that *expecting* it is another matter, though.


I really am not sure what the lo down difference (in my head) is between *"taking some Responsibility"* - I assume this means .... just OWNING one's own SH** ....which I whole heartily agree with.. *VS*... *Expecting it*..

A thread topic jld.. explaining this deeper ??

As honestly I EXPECT my husband *to care* about me, my needs, desires... and meet me half way.....and if he steps on that.. I'm not going to be happy... 

But I understand I need to feel the same darn way in return.. that is owning my part.. and being able to admit .. I'm screwing up.. I am sorry.. I need to do better.. YOU DESERVE better.. etc...

When 2 are self aware and can do this.. things generally run pretty smoothly.. UNLESS they are just not compatible enough to make it work..


----------



## EVG39

If anyone is interested there is a very good thread demonstrating this principle in action in the General Relationship Discussion. Its called Absolutely Devastated posted by Frusdil. her husband unloaded all his insecurities on her. Go see how that worked out for both of them.
She is getting beat up, very unfairly in my opinion, for expressing how she no longer feels safe with him. But that is just my opinion and I am old fashioned guy.


----------



## knobcreek

Many women on this site I think have done TOO much therapy, they're losing the human connection between mates. Sometimes you're insecure, sometimes you're vulnerable, sometimes you're depressed, angry, sad, happy, joyful, lonely, and it's nice when your mate can actually elevate your mood when you're down, reassure you when you're insecure, and share in your joy. Even if you're a man "owning his sh*t", at times life is hard, and having a partner who doesn't dismiss your feelings of insecurity as weakness is a real pleasure in life. I started a job as a VP, tons of stress and I wasn't always confident that I could do it, my wife reassured me, she didn't debate leaving me because I showed a little vulnerability and questioned my self-confidence. Same with grad school, I got an 82 on a midterm and was devastated, I haven't gotten an 82 since Jr. High. My wife understood my mood is a little depressed because of it, and I started feeling insecure and unqualified to be going for my MBA. If this makes her not respect me, then so be it, but men can't always wear the mask of being invincible.

I feel bad for a lot people women here, they're so much more cynical then they would ever realize, and I imagine this really complicates their relationships. 

It's not reasonable to expect a mate to never "burden" you with feelings of potential sadness or insecurity. If that's your litmus test you'll either 1. always be alone 2. force your boyfriend or husband to squash all communication around his feelings with you. Neither is healthy. I would suggest you learn to realize that human beings have emotions, the whole range of them.


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## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> I really am not sure what the lo down difference (in my head) is between *"taking some Responsibility"* - I assume this means .... just OWNING one's own SH** ....which I whole heartily agree with.. *VS*... *Expecting it*..
> 
> A thread topic jld.. explaining this deeper ??
> 
> As honestly I EXPECT my husband *to care* about me, my needs, desires... and meet me half way.....and if he steps on that.. I'm not going to be happy...
> 
> But I understand I need to feel the same darn way in return.. that is owning my part.. and being able to admit .. I'm screwing up.. I am sorry.. I need to do better.. YOU DESERVE better.. etc...
> 
> When 2 are self aware and can do this.. things generally run pretty smoothly.. UNLESS they are just not compatible enough to make it work..


From Dug: The assumption is that we all have the same needs. But we don't. 

If a man helps a woman with her issues, why is it assumed that the woman needs to help him, too? His needs may be different.

For myself, SA, (not Dug, who is driving the car, lol) I am wondering if this may be an example of false equality, the idea that all things between men and women can be sliced in half, all responsibilities split down the middle to be fair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> From Dug: *The assumption is that we all have the same needs. But we don't.*
> 
> If a man helps a woman with her issues, why is it assumed that the woman needs to help him, too? His needs may be different.
> 
> For myself, SA, (not Dug, who is driving the car, lol) I am wondering if this may be an example of false equality, the idea that all things between men and women can be sliced in half, all responsibilities split down the middle to be fair.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm going to try to elaborate on this some.. hmmmm... as we know I have no desire to call myself a feminist & agree men & woman are DIFFERENT and I celebrate those differences very very much ! This whole equality thing is not so easy to Box & label... I do feel there are weights and "balances" though that need maintained for "attraction" and harmony..... (will try to explain this if I can articulate it in the way I want to get across...next post)...

But in all honesty, going by our own marriage..... I DO feel we have *very similar needs* !! 

Taking the 10 emotional needs in "His Needs, Her Needs ....we appreciate & want all of those.. I think the only one that's not a concern is his expecting me to earn money (Financial support) .. and my expecting him to handle anything in the house or the running of (Domestic support)... 

Conversation.. getting deep, is surely more important TO ME... but of course he needs me to communicate with him, sharing in the emotional connection. 



> 1. *Admiration*
> 2. *Affection*
> 3. *Conversation*
> 4. *Domestic support*
> 5. *Family commitment*
> 6.* Financial support*
> 7. *Honesty and openness*
> 8. *Physical attractiveness*
> 9. *Recreational companionship*
> 10. *Sexual fulfillment*


Heck I think I need sexual fulfillment (Spicing)







more than HE does ... I even think he longed for Affection more than I did years ago.. not sure this is the norm....

Oh he didn't complain about it... (there goes that not showing weakness.. gotta suck it up like a man...which gets twisted into insecurity somehow.. When learning of these things. I was seriously pi**ed at him for not opening up to me.. and telling me what for ! 

I think the problem is.. every time words like NEEDS / Weaknesses and INSECURITY come up.. different scenarios play in our heads ... so when we speak on it using these words.. we may be seeing something very different.. it makes it hard to get our points across with a shared understanding...


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## SimplyAmorous

knobcreek said:


> Many women on this site I think have done TOO much therapy, they're losing the human connection between mates. *Sometimes you're insecure, sometimes you're vulnerable, sometimes you're depressed, angry, sad, happy, joyful, lonely, and it's nice when your mate can actually elevate your mood when you're down, reassure you when you're insecure, and share in your joy. Even if you're a man "owning his sh*t", at times life is hard, and having a partner who doesn't dismiss your feelings of insecurity as weakness is a real pleasure in life. *














> I started a job as a VP, tons of stress and I wasn't always confident that I could do it,* my wife reassured me, she didn't debate leaving me because I showed a little vulnerability and questioned my self-confidence.* Same with grad school, I got an 82 on a midterm and was devastated, I haven't gotten an 82 since Jr. High. *My wife understood my mood is a little depressed because of it,* and I started feeling insecure and unqualified to be going for my MBA. If this makes her not respect me, then so be it, but men can't always wear the mask of being invincible.


 Shouldn't all of us strive to be more like this... I couldn't even fathom shunning that.. under those circumstances.. it would make no sense to me ... when you take the WHOLE MAN into account...she married you.. she obviously seen Promise in you.. 

I assume she's leaned on you.. felt you her "Rock" at various times in her life.. how do we just wash history so easily.. doesn't THIS come into play...we look back on it.. we know our men have comforted us, been there for us. and will be again.. 

And he, too, being human, blood running through his veins.. has moments of where he may need support.. I feel GOOD when I support my husband.. when I can bring a :smile2: to his face after a Bad day at work... or he's worried about something.. this is halving our burdens..



> *It's not reasonable to expect a mate to never "burden" you with feelings of potential sadness or insecurity. If that's your litmus test you'll either 1. always be alone 2. force your boyfriend or husband to squash all communication around his feelings with you. Neither is healthy. I would suggest you learn to realize that human beings have emotions, the whole range of them*.


I agree with this too.. it would shut down a man's communication.. why in the world would he want to open up if it's going to cause her to LOOK DOWN ON HIM.. 

I think the danger in this is.. it can lead a man to open up to someone else, a little attraction, add some loneliness, both feeling neglected, misunderstood at home.. very slippery slope...


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## jld

I don't want to be a man's rock. I don't even think I could do it. I have too much insecurity myself.

I think in long term sustainable relationships you need someone strong enough to be the fall guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

Earlier I was thinking about this.. I hope I can put it into words.. I WANT a man who can Share his ALL with me.. without fear.. in our earlier marriage.. my husband WASN'T as vulnerable with me.. and you know what.. *it stole from us*. He was building some silent resentment when he wanted MORE from me.. but being a MAN.. you have to be made of steel... you take it.. You give & give & you don't complain.. that was HIM..

We've had an upsurge of Passion with being as Open as one can get.. in all areas.. the good, the bad, the ugly.. and WOW.. there is more laughter... we feel closer emotionally.. now I'm addicted to affection too... more sex..we've even shared tears.. 

I eat it up.. 

I think it goes something like this.. the MORE A WOMAN ADMIRES A MAN, where he has lived in such a way that she *RESPECTS HIM*, he's been there by her side.. he's held her hand.. he's been her comfort...there is a history of Trust there.. you've waded through hard times together.. he didn't bail, jump ship... basically he has PROVED HIMSELF to be someone stable.. and true.. 

I think these men can get away with showing more vulnerability ...as the foundation is strong.. it then becomes about who *WE* are together, working at a team...what we've built together.. over looking at the other cross eyed.. like.. "Who is this person before me"?....

Example.. My husband.. he's been working since age 16, never been laid off ... his work record is impeccable.. we haven't counted but I think he's only called off less than 5 times in 36 yrs.. He come home last night.. shaking.. stomach flu.. running through all of us.. kids gave it to me.. I gave it to him ! (bad week!)

Oh I was in there watching him throw up in a bucket, inches high it went.. he'd tell me he's peeing out the butt too.. it's OK.. he looked so weak...frail.. it was a sad sight.. but this admiration still came over me.. even during THAT.. just how hard this man works.. and how good he is to our family....

I keep telling him.. you need to just take a day off today.. do it ...damn it .. Here's the phone [email protected]# We don't live pay check to pay check, STOP BEING







.... ya know.. he deserves it...what's he trying to do... make it to retirement with less than 10 call offs...but he refuses.. I can't make him.. yet at the same time I greatly admire that he tackles LIFE, work, our marriage, our kids .. LIKE A RESPONSIBLE MAN.. he put on his work boots and he was out the door. And when he comes home.. I'm going to pander the sh** out of him..

This was sickness not insecurity.. 

I just feel there are weights and balances here.. if a man shows strong leadership the vast majority of the time...taking his responsibilities seriously.. a good listener, apologizes when he hurts his wife, has shown himself to be an attentive Father...the list goes on in what a woman WANTS in her man....

If the GOOD is at play the majority of the time, his woman feeling "safe" "secure" in his love (these weights if I can call them that)...then wouldn't it make sense such a man would be able to show more vulnerably, have a weak moment here & there.. and it's NOT going to upset her apple cart...

Because she has a wealth of memories that carry her , together they got through .. they climbed mountains together.. they laughed & cried together...one may stumble but the other will help pick them up.. '

I always think of this scripture.. I feel its gender-less...


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## jld

Mr SA is a very good man. He has earned your trust. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

I want to give an example that I think bears mentioning. 

My wife recently quit her main job to work what was once a budding side business but is now growing like crazy, full time. Right now, we have probably lost $18,000 in annual income if the numbers do not change, which is unlikely given the growth over the last several months as well as the potential for the market.

My wife is enjoying this, but it is also stoking her anxiety. The loss in income is stoking mine as well.

Yesterday I called her and we had a conversation:

Me: How are things?
Her: Slow. No calls. I am just working on the house.
Me: Two days with no calls is tough. I hope it picks up soon.
Her, agitated: stop. Just stop. This is making my anxiety worse!

FULL STOP

Now, what just happened? 

Did I voice a concern, or did I try and get her to own my emotions? 

Or, did she just take it to the next step and own my emotions on her own, and then reflect it back at me as agitation because she chose to own them?

After a deep breath, I responded.

Me: I understand you are anxious. However, if I am not allowed to voice my concerns for fear of stoking your insecurity, you are killing transparency as well as closing yourself off for me bringing concerns to you.
Her: Then we will have to figure out a solution.

We haven't talked about it again, yet.

But this begs the question. 

How frequently is our partner attempting to own our emotions when all we are simply doing is expressing our emotions without looking for somebody to own them?

Is our partner capable of hearing our emotions without trying to own them?

This is a critical piece of the puzzle.


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## jld

What do you mean by owning your partner's emotions?

Btw, I think your business is going to be fabulously successful. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Okay, reread it. Do you mean she feels guilty about quitting her job because of the two slow days? And feels you will blame her if business does not pick up soon?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

No. She knows that the business must grow to replace income within the next year or we have significant choices to make. With the limited income, we are taking a significant hit to finances.

She is anxious over it needing to grow.

Me mentioning my concerns causes her anxiety to spike. 

She needs me to be completely confident so she can have faith in it working. So that leaves me with either being someone I am not and being completely stoic, or showing her my concern and not "protecting" her emotions.

She can't listen to my concerns without getting concerned in the same way; taking ownership of the emotion.

I hope that makes sense.


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## jld

You mean being influenced by you? I think that is pretty normal in marriage.

I really think the business is going to go very well. Please relay my enthusiastic support and full confidence. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

Will do.



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## jld

Far, if it makes you feel better, I know there have been times when I wanted assurances from Dug that I did not get.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## knobcreek

@farsidejunky Don't think of it in terms of 18K lost income, that will make people nuts, just budget and focus on what you currently have.

My wife quit a 60K a year job to go back to school to be a teacher. Five years of losing 60K a year while she was in school = $300,000 in lost wages, add in another 100K in student loans, all to make less money then when she quit five years ago. So yeah it's a nearly half a million dollar swing, but I don't run my marriage like I would a business, at the end of the day she feels happy in what she's doing, she feels accomplished and that's what really matters. Beats working a job she hated in a field she loathed just for a little extra money that the government is just going to take to give to people who don't work, but I digress.

I wouldn't say anything, give the company time to grow and development, fretting about slow growth or no calls daily will make your wife nuts.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Far, if it makes you feel better, I know there have been times when I wanted assurances from Dug that I did not get.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You can't be married for any length of time and not have it happen, at least on occasion.

But I will not promise her anything other than this:

No matter what happens, we will be okay.

Anything beyond that is up to God.

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## SimplyAmorous

farsidejunky said:


> No. She knows that the business must grow to replace income within the next year or we have significant choices to make. With the limited income, we are taking a significant hit to finances.
> 
> She is anxious over it needing to grow.
> 
> Me mentioning my concerns causes her anxiety to spike.
> 
> *She needs me to be completely confident so she can have faith in it working. So that leaves me with either being someone I am not and being completely stoic, or showing her my concern and not "protecting" her emotions.*
> 
> She can't listen to my concerns without getting concerned in the same way; taking ownership of the emotion.
> 
> I hope that makes sense.


Insecurity & owning emotions aside.. I think this gets tricky when one is too optimistic and one is leaning too pessimistic.. (dealing with this issue with one of our sons right now.. I am the pessimist.. he is the optimist and I'm not sure which of us will end up right -when its over!)... he finds me critical.. and I find him a bit of a "fly the seat of his pants and hope it all works out " type.. which drives me crazy!

Myself & husband are both Pessimists (sounds awful I suppose but we don't see it that way.. we are more apt to prepare for the worse at all times)... complementing a "worst case scenario" so we have some idea what we may face and ways to cover that... only THIS gives us some peace of mind.. 

Then when we are wrong (many times we are !!).. we have much to celebrate, and feel very thankful !.. 

In this way...it doesn't really matter what comes out of our mouths.. we just feel we are being realistic..


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## jld

knobcreek said:


> but I don't run my marriage like I would a business


_Words of wisdom. . . _
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974

jld said:


> From Dug: The assumption is that we all have the same needs. But we don't.
> 
> If a man helps a woman with her issues, why is it assumed that the woman needs to help him, too? His needs may be different.
> 
> *For myself, SA, (not Dug, who is driving the car, lol) I am wondering if this may be an example of false equality, the idea that all things between men and women can be sliced in half, all responsibilities split down the middle to be fair.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Equal doesn't need to be the same and likely shouldn't be. Every woman I have been with has insecurities but they were all about different things. I also have them and would venture they also vary from guy to guy. The responsible person will take and deal with their own insecurities with love and support from thier mate. If that's too much to ask then they should be left and move on to someone who can or is willing to support you with those. Some are so consumed with themselves they won't support any insecurity in thier spouse. Those people are emotional takers.

But how we support and what we do to support should be equal but that doesn't mean the same at all. I may be with a woman who needs weekly assurance that we are ok. I may need a sympathetic ear once every 6 months because I'm upset and need to talk about it. Those things aren't equal but they are the same to me. We both are supporting one another in the way we need to be supported equally.


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## nirvana

I've learned it the hard way that it is better to hide one's insecurities from my wife and discuss things with my male friends. Women, in my experience, have a tendency to think of you as weak, compare you to some other woman's husband who she thinks is secure and strong and infallible. I used to foolishly share my work issues with my wife for years when she was a SAHM. She never understood and thought that it was simple as "work hard ---> get promoted". Now that she is working, she sees reality a bit more clearer. In any case, I don't want her "solutions" to my issues when she does not understand the problem to begin with. Her solutions are more in the tone of your problem is so simple, here is what I would do when her solution does not match the problem.

Better to discuss with the guys, they know what I am going through. There are times when I wonder why women are portrayed to be understand and compassionate. Why don't I get any of the compassion? Of course, the reply will be "it is your fault!", so I don't bother anymore. 

Sad but this is reality.


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## SimplyAmorous

farsidejunky said:


> You can't be married for any length of time and not have it happen, at least on occasion.
> 
> *But I will not promise her anything other than this:
> 
> No matter what happens, we will be okay.*
> 
> *Anything beyond that is up to God.*


 This is our attitude too... There is a possibility my husband may get laid off.. his work is shutting down shops across the United States.. this would be HUGE for our family of 7, he's always been the main breadwinner.... it will suck royally but he'd probably have to travel to another shop.. we'll have difficult decisions.. maybe only see each other 2 days out of the week.. 

I told him if I was still on that "sex high"...I don't think I could have handled that.. but since this has passed. I will survive .... then I'll just have to work full time to help get through the days.. not being too lonely without him.. whatever.. we'll make it work or find a way..


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## farsidejunky

knobcreek said:


> @farsidejunky Don't think of it in terms of 18K lost income, that will make people nuts, just budget and focus on what you currently have.
> 
> My wife quit a 60K a year job to go back to school to be a teacher. Five years of losing 60K a year while she was in school = $300,000 in lost wages, add in another 100K in student loans, all to make less money then when she quit five years ago. So yeah it's a nearly half a million dollar swing, but I don't run my marriage like I would a business, at the end of the day she feels happy in what she's doing, she feels accomplished and that's what really matters. Beats working a job she hated in a field she loathed just for a little extra money that the government is just going to take to give to people who don't work, but I digress.
> 
> I wouldn't say anything, give the company time to grow and development, fretting about slow growth or no calls daily will make your wife nuts.


Thanks for this perspective, @knobcreek.

Much truth in it.

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## SimplyAmorous

nirvana said:


> I've learned it the hard way that it is better to hide one's insecurities from my wife and discuss things with my male friends. Women, in my experience, have a tendency to think of you as weak, compare you to some other woman's husband who she thinks is secure and strong and infallible. *I used to foolishly share my work issues with my wife for years when she was a SAHM. She never understood and thought that it was simple as "work hard ---> get promoted". Now that she is working, she sees reality a bit more clearer. In any case, I don't want her "solutions" to my issues when she does not understand the problem to begin with. Her solutions are more in the tone of your problem is so simple, here is what I would do when her solution does not match the problem.*


 My husband always shares the DRAMA at his work place.. he doesn't come home complaining so much.. just what goes on.. many times we have a good laugh over these things.... his Boss should have a sitcom, the man is so outrageous (NOT in a good way)... he'll sometimes do impersonations of him.. we all laugh.. 

And those stressful days when he comes home swearing like a truck driver (it's happened.. one day he was ready to quit.. I talked him out of that)... pretty much... I can soothe him down... I can get him laughing... I remind him how so & so is.. I know so much of these characters by now.. it pulls me into his world and what he has to deal with on a daily basis... . 

I WANT THAT.. if he didn't share these things with me. I'd not like it at all..


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## NotEasy

jld said:


> I don't want to be a man's rock. I don't even think I could do it. I have too much insecurity myself.
> 
> I think in long term sustainable relationships you need someone strong enough to be the fall guy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This sounds very self-aware. Any woman like you would fit the idea of this thread.

Hopefully your husband understands this about you. Given your other posts I think he does. It would be disappointing for a man to think he was sharing when really he was undermining the marriage.

I wonder how many wives are like you in this. I think many woman require openness and sharing, even sharing of his insecurities occasionally. So I think the idea of the thread is not true for all woman, or at least it depends on the volume of his insecurities shared.

And I think good marriages come from knowing your partner and adapting with them, rather than insisting everyone be the ideal and perfect spouse.


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## NotEasy

Hate it when the second half of my post comes into mind just after submitting.

Yes it is important that the bond is strong enough the someone will be the fall guy. But 'the fall guy' must not be his sole role and he must not always take a fall during any dispute.


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## always_alone

farsidejunky said:


> Me mentioning my concerns causes her anxiety to spike.
> 
> She needs me to be completely confident so she can have faith in it working. So that leaves me with either being someone I am not and being completely stoic, or showing her my concern and not "protecting" her emotions.


Are you sure you are diagnosing this accurately? 

My guess is that she isn't reacting to your "insecurity" so much as she is wishing you wouldn't remind her of the downsides of her decisions...possibly thinking that she is already well aware of them.


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## farsidejunky

always_alone said:


> Are you sure you are diagnosing this accurately?
> 
> My guess is that she isn't reacting to your "insecurity" so much as she is wishing you wouldn't remind her of the downsides of her decisions...possibly thinking that she is already well aware of them.


I am expressing my insecurity.

That it stokes hers is unintended. She can't listen to it without owning it.

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## always_alone

farsidejunky said:


> I am expressing my insecurity.
> 
> That it stokes hers is unintended. She can't listen to it without owning it.


Let me rephrase: the way you described the situation, it sounded a whole lot like she was already anxious and probably feeling guilty. 

And did not read your insecurity as an expression of insecurity (as in "yes, it's a big risk, I know you feel, I'm worried too."), but as an accusation (as in "this is a tough situation you put us in, it better work out").

Not saying you intended to accuse her or guilt trip her. But someone who is already feeling guilty will be hypersensitive to whether or not others perceive them in the same negative light as they already see themselves.

Does that make sense? Obviously I could be way off, I don't know your wife. But the way that scenario reads to me, it has nothing to do with her being freaked out by your insecurity, and much more with her being freaked out by her own, and what repercussions that will have on you.


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## farsidejunky

always_alone said:


> Let me rephrase: the way you described the situation, it sounded a whole lot like she was already anxious and probably feeling guilty.
> 
> And did not read your insecurity as an expression of insecurity (as in "yes, it's a big risk, I know you feel, I'm worried too."), but as an accusation (as in "this is a tough situation you put us in, it better work out").
> 
> Not saying you intended to accuse her or guilt trip her. But someone who is already feeling guilty will be hypersensitive to whether or not others perceive them in the same negative light as they already see themselves.
> 
> Does that make sense? Obviously I could be way off, I don't know your wife. But the way that scenario reads to me, it has nothing to do with her being freaked out by your insecurity, and much more with her being freaked out by her own, and what repercussions that will have on you.


That makes sense. Thank you.

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## heartsbeating

farsidejunky... I read and interpreted your post similarly to always_alone.

My husband trusts my abilities and decision-making, at times when I've questioned it myself. The career change I recently made, has me earning peanuts and working my arse off for said peanuts. It's a choice I made. And yet, the work itself is a natural fit for me and there is so much that I love about it. My husband and I agreed that I'd need to earn more when I complete my studies and there was a particular direction I had in mind to achieve that. Walking the path and considering it from a distance are two different experiences. Knowing what I know now, there's been a shift in my perspective and I'm looking to which direction within the field to step to next instead... so that I can keep progressing and earn a somewhat decent salary. The study and current experience will be helpful with that. Yet I've had moments where I've questioned myself and had the array of emotions that go along with it. 

What I've found to be helpful is my husband's pragmatic approach of where I'm at. He knows I'm trying to figure it out. When he asks, and we discuss possibilities of roles, direction and income, his comments are encouraging 'Wow, if you could get that much, it would make a difference to us!' He may need to hear that I'm considering the options and doing my homework for his own reassurance. Yet I also appreciate the encouragement that it gives me.


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## heartsbeating

jld said:


> I don't want to be a man's rock. I don't even think I could do it. I have too much insecurity myself.
> 
> I think in long term sustainable relationships you need someone strong enough to be the fall guy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel that in our marriage, we can be each others rock at different times. 

Recently I was my husband's rock without realizing it. He was offered a fantastic work opportunity. We were both hoping this one would come through and it did. I was excited and congratulating him. I really admire what he's achieved and what he's about.

He replied, 'It's well done to _us_ for getting this..' Admittedly I laughed, said that was sweet of him but this was _all_ him. He saw it differently. He said he wouldn't have gotten here without my encouragement, believing in him, encouraging him to take risks, along with some advice I'd given him a couple of months ago (that I'd pretty much forgotten about but had stuck with him)... and during his moments of insecurity.

He said 'Well done to us; we're in this together.'


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## farsidejunky

heartsbeating said:


> I feel that in our marriage, we can be each others rock at different times.
> 
> Recently I was my husband's rock without realizing it. He was offered a fantastic work opportunity. We were both hoping this one would come through and it did. I was excited and congratulating him. I really admire what he's achieved and what he's about.
> 
> He replied, 'It's well done to _us_ for getting this..' Admittedly I laughed, said that was sweet of him but this was _all_ him. He saw it differently. He said he wouldn't have gotten here without my encouragement, believing in him, encouraging him to take risks, along with some advice I'd given him a couple of months ago (that I'd pretty much forgotten about but had stuck with him)... and during his moments of insecurity.
> 
> He said 'Well done to us; we're in this together.'


This is what is all about; the entire point of having a partner.

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## jld

heartsbeating said:


> I feel that in our marriage, we can be each others rock at different times.
> 
> Recently I was my husband's rock without realizing it. He was offered a fantastic work opportunity. We were both hoping this one would come through and it did. I was excited and congratulating him. I really admire what he's achieved and what he's about.
> 
> He replied, 'It's well done to _us_ for getting this..' Admittedly I laughed, said that was sweet of him but this was _all_ him. He saw it differently. He said he wouldn't have gotten here without my encouragement, believing in him, encouraging him to take risks, along with some advice I'd given him a couple of months ago (that I'd pretty much forgotten about but had stuck with him)... and during his moments of insecurity.
> 
> He said 'Well done to us; we're in this together.'


I definitely think husbands and wives help each other, hearts. And we probably all do that in more ways than we may realize.

I do think some women truly are the rock for their husbands, though. And they do it very well. And they are happy with it. It is a Win for both of them.

Maybe that is the important thing--figuring out what the Win/Win is going to be in your own relationship, and doing that.


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## heartsbeating

jld said:


> I definitely think husbands and wives help each other, hearts. And we probably all do that in more ways than we may realize.
> 
> I do think some women truly are the rock for their husbands, though. And they do it very well. And they are happy with it. It is a Win for both of them.
> 
> Maybe that is the important thing--figuring out what the Win/Win is going to be in your own relationship, and doing that.


What do you perceive as being 'truly the rock' in a relationship? 

I'm curious if you consider yourself a rock to your family? Based on what I have read of you, I'd certainly consider you to be a strong mentor and 'rock' for your children - and by default, being are a rock to your husband as well? 

I think helping, giving support and challenging one another, contributes to having each others back and being someone we can turn to. 

I agree with your last sentiment ...although I may interpret it slightly differently; about knowing ourselves and the type of relationship we value.


----------



## jld

heartsbeating said:


> What do you perceive as being 'truly the rock' in a relationship?
> 
> I'm curious if you consider yourself a rock to your family? Based on what I have read of you, I'd certainly consider you to be a strong mentor and 'rock' for your children - and by default, being are a rock to your husband as well?
> 
> I think helping, giving support and challenging one another, contributes to having each others back and being someone we can turn to.
> 
> I agree with your last sentiment ...although I may interpret it slightly differently; about knowing ourselves and the type of relationship we value.


I think there may be one partner who will not let the relationship fail. Not out of some codependent weakness, but out of maturity and inner strength.

This person is committed and can see the forest for the trees. No matter the emotion of the moment, this person can be counted on to see the relationship through.

I am not the rock this marriage is built on. I did not initiate this relationship, nor do I feel I hold ultimate responsibility for it. I honestly do not think I can hold ultimate responsibility for a marriage, period. And even an equal holding does not seem congruent with my nature. I think I need to be able to rely on a man.

That said, I certainly strive to be a good partner. I have a big stake in the outcome of this relationship.

Yes, I do feel absolute commitment to my children in a leadership capacity. I am their mother and the burden of leadership and responsibility for the relationship will always fall on me. I am the first to apologize, the first to seek to understand, the first to sacrifice if a sacrifice needs to be made. That is my role as mother.


----------



## 2ntnuf

"Women fall out of love with insecure men." 

Men become insecure when they believe women don't love them.

I see it as a chicken or egg type of thing. No woman falls in love with an insecure man, when she has a healthy knowledge of what love is.

Edit: My apologies. I never even read the op. I just had these thoughts from seeing the title.


----------



## SunCMars

Quote: The Truth Hurts

Any woman who doesn't help her man build his confidence - but instead "gets turned off" by his insecurities - isn't really the type of woman another guy should get involved with IMO. Long term relationships mean we have to support each other and help each other grow. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Naturally, this goes both ways. Both partners need to build up the others confidence.

This is not an easy task when the said insecure partner has [good to great] potential and the stronger partner "does not see this" or chooses to downplay these potentialities for whatever reasons [selfishness, lack of vision, indifference, subliminal jealousy, or undefined fear]. 

People marry another person for the qualities exhibited prior to marriage. If the same qualities were to change due to maturity, failures that are turned around by clarity of mind, counseling, mentoring by someone outside the marriage, etc. this can cause the more secure partner to reassess the marriage negatively. The paradigm has shifted. Change is usually not welcome, not easy to deal with. I am talking about good qualities being adopted here, not bad behaviors! That is a different topic.

Of course, these same [improving] changes can be a boon to the marriage.


----------



## jld

Not every man needs his confidence built. 

Just sayin'.


----------



## SunCMars

jorgegene said:


> how much of this man/woman dynamic is culture and how much of it is innate or 'primal' as conanbhub calls it?
> 
> in other words, we are discussing 'insecure men'. there seems to be a strong consensus that insecure men are unattractive and that
> there is a delicate balance between being vulnerable and insecure. intheory has interestingly protested this notion implying (it seems to me)
> that men must project an act and deny at times their very selves. men must be sensitive towards others, and yet not sensitive themselves?
> 
> they can't be vulnerable, or at least insecure lest they seem unattractive or whiny.
> they must walk this tightrope, and in fact they must learn it at an early age, hard knocks if you will, beginning in grade school.
> 
> i personally can see the the value in this dynamic, although i am not 100% sold on it and wonder how much of this is evolutionary adaption necessary to
> provide strong family and tribal functioning and how much of it is an overbearing culture that wants to suck us in and deprive us of our individuality?
> 
> and if in fact it is evolutionary adaption, in light of the proposition that we are beyond the old paradigms, shall we revolt and shake our fists at and present our
> middle fingers towards popular conventions?
> 
> and if not, where does this leave us?


-------------------------------------------------------------


In a women's ideal world are said insecure men [hoped for] and [wished] to be, "The Man for All Seasons"? Good luck with that. To be that person, one would lack depth-of-character on many levels. 
This man would be a great date, but likely not a great life-partner.

"You cannot please all the people all of the time": trite saying, truthful, nevertheless. Partners are the "other half", and should complement "the other half". Complementary warts, in some cases!


----------



## heartsbeating

earlyforties said:


> Maybe I'm just being a bit insecure:wink2:, but me aside, what do others think about this?


To the original post... I greatly respect Turnera's advice on this forum. I don't know the context of her post but it seems she was suggesting someone consider the idea for their own benefit. Turnera's intention time and time again, is to help. 



Anon Pink said:


> I think in marriage and in life, owning our issues striving to be a better person is what we are ALL responsible for.


I agree with this. 

Generally, there are ebbs and flows with life. We have moments of leaning on each other, being vulnerable, sharing insecurities, this may be on a sliding scale... and to me, bandit's post demonstrated there can be a security in knowing one's insecurities. 

What we then do for ourselves, the actions we take or perhaps don't take (at times letting go or having acceptance is needed), determines how we get on with things. In my opinion, the _action_ makes someone, male or female, attractive. That's where I experience one's resilience, strength, acceptance, sometimes even humor... and yes, that in itself is attractive. 

There can be scenarios whereby the dynamic becomes unbalanced - perhaps leaning too much on the other when perhaps we need to restore some of the balance by leaning back on ourselves. From what I observe, resilience, confidence, self-esteem are largely developed from sharing, listening, being surrounded by supportive people and interactions. But even who we are surrounded by is down to us.


----------



## earlyforties

heartsbeating said:


> To the original post... I greatly respect Turnera's advice on this forum. I don't know the context of her post but it seems she was suggesting someone consider the idea for their own benefit. Turnera's intention time and time again, is to help.


I couldn't agree more.


----------



## Wolf1974

intheory said:


> This is a way for EA's (emotional affairs) to get started.
> 
> What a great strategy for a "homewrecker". Be the woman who a guy can go and unburden himself to. The woman who can be a guys "mistress" for years and years.
> 
> This thread has made me think of the "vagina dentata" myth. But not so much that a guys' penis is in danger of being "cut off" by entering a vagina; but that a guys soul will be chewed up if he "exposes himself", emotionally to a woman --- and not just any woman; his wife.
> 
> A real sexy thought I get sometimes, is that my vagina is like a sanctuary for my husband. You know, safe and warm and pleasurable. I'd like to be that emotionally, too.
> 
> This is one of those threads that has made me real sympathetic to men. Just like the husband-prefers-porn-to-wife threads make me totally sympathetic to women.
> 
> I'm all over the place, I guess.


Seems to me like you understand men a great deal. The only one time I have ever been able to establish true intimacy and connection was with my X wife and she used it against me. But felt about it as you describe here. She was my one place on earth that was safe and knowing that it can be turned on you makes you scared to ever be vulnerable again. good insight


----------



## 2ntnuf

What came up for me after reading those quotes and combining them with your post, @intheory, was a question for myself and maybe others.

Is this why men will go toward the woman who is most attractive to them and not for one who is average in his eyes? Because it doesn't matter what a woman looks like to others, it matters what she looks like to the man she is interested in and vice versa.

So, do men pick the woman they want to bang the most so they don't care if they are as openly intimate with them? If it's too dangerous to be intimate, and I have to agree with that for now, isn't that all that's left? 

I guess those women will work to find more intimacy with their husband and not be so ready to leave because they are intrigued and satisfied they are worth something to their husbands? 

I'm struggling a little with this. I've been thinking about this for some time now. I had it both ways myself. Sexual attraction in first marriage, but no intimacy. There was infidelity. Less attraction in second, but deep love and a desire for intimacy, and infidelity. Meh, who knows? I'm getting a headache.


----------



## turnera

heartsbeating said:


> To the original post... I greatly respect Turnera's advice on this forum. I don't know the context of her post but it seems she was suggesting someone consider the idea for their own benefit. Turnera's intention time and time again, is to help.


IIRC, I was pointing out that, psychologically speaking, a woman needs her man to be confident in his ability to handle issues, love and respect himself, and protect his woman/family. It's not about whether he can be honest or share his feelings - women WANT men to know and share their feelings, as well as communicate, cuddle, etc.

But when a man deviates, becomes unsure, obsesses, reaches that place where he fears his wife (being mad at him, leaving him, cheating on him, etc.), and then stops being the calm, confident man who knows he can handle anything (and thus is her protector again), then he has crossed over to that place where he is no longer her protector, SHE has to become the protector...and few woman want that position.

And the longer she has to stay in that position, the more she grows to resent her man. Hate him. Want to leave him or cheat on him. 

She has to know that she can lose him - THAT makes her proud, subconsciously, that she 'won' him (over other women): that he KNOWS he can leave, but she offers enough that he chooses her. 

The man who somehow becomes the guy terrified of losing his wife, who puts up with her sh*t tests to avoid losing her, is instantly undesirable.

I'm pretty sure that's what I meant. lol


----------



## See_Listen_Love

turnera said:


> IIRC, I was pointing out that, psychologically speaking, a woman needs her man to be confident in his ability to handle issues, love and respect himself, and protect his woman/family. It's not about whether he can be honest or share his feelings - women WANT men to know and share their feelings, as well as communicate, cuddle, etc.
> 
> But when a man deviates, becomes unsure, obsesses, reaches that place where he fears his wife (being mad at him, leaving him, cheating on him, etc.), and then stops being the calm, confident man who knows he can handle anything (and thus is her protector again), then he has crossed over to that place where he is no longer her protector, SHE has to become the protector...and few woman want that position.
> 
> And the longer she has to stay in that position, the more she grows to resent her man. Hate him. Want to leave him or cheat on him.
> 
> She has to know that she can lose him - THAT makes her proud, subconsciously, that she 'won' him (over other women): that he KNOWS he can leave, but she offers enough that he chooses her.
> 
> The man who somehow becomes the guy terrified of losing his wife, who puts up with her sh*t tests to avoid losing her, is instantly undesirable.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that's what I meant. lol


Great insight, thx.

Now going to hit the weights. But first do some dishes and laundry....I hope I am not jeopardizing my relation...


----------



## DustyDog

earlyforties said:


> ...
> 
> Yet at the same time it does bother me. What is an 'insecure man' given the varying degrees of insecurity, and which of us fall into this category? I'm guessing this may well be a large percentage of men. I really have no idea and I'm not sure the poster, even with their wealth of experience posting on forums knows the answer to that.
> 
> And if I am one of those, does it make me more secure reading this? :surprise:
> 
> In comparison, would it be fair to say
> "Men fall out of love with women with low self esteem. In fact, they grow to dislike them. Even distance themselves from them"
> Maybe I'm just being a bit insecure:wink2:, but me aside, what do others think about this?


Insecure people...people with self-doubt....people who don't trust their own decisions...tend to have poor self-esteem.

It's part of the cycle of human emotion and belief that if a person doesn't trust themselves - they don't trust others readily. And without knowing it, they develop behavior patterns that make them not very trustworthy. For instance, she eagerly says "yes" when you say "would you like to go to the concert Saturday?" but when Saturday comes, her fear that it will be too loud overcomes her and she backs out at the last minute, usually without telling you why, because her insecurity tells her that you'll think her reason is dumb.

All this stuff seems to be wrapped together.

And yes, insecure people, in an effort to make the external world more dependable, DO try to take control of things they really can't. So, they seem to be control freaks, to one extent or another.

In the vernacular, such men are alternately known as bullies or wussies, and such women are commonly known as drama queens.

Insecure people are simply not fun to be around, no matter what their gender.


In my own view (no idea of this is the common view), it's normal to know that there are things about you that you want to improve. A secure person is confident that yes, this is the correct list of what I want to improve, and they are confident that, given time and effort, they'll get better at it. Secure people love the fact that perfection is neither possible nor desirable because imperfection is that delightful thing that allows "continuous improvement" and "lifelong learning" to become real.

An insecure person may look at things they want to improve, get completely disenchanted because it makes them feel like a failure, and it just keeps heading downhill from there.

That's my observation, based on the insecure/secure types I've known.

I was insecure in my teens and 20s, and struggled to climb out of it...can't say as I come across with a high level of charisma even today, but on the career front, I was reliable enough at what I did for management to refer to me as "quietly competent". Certain social situations seem to still trigger a massive does of anxiety in me...and now that I don't work a day job, I'm trying to immerse myself in exactly those fear-inducing situations to prove to myself that I don't die or get beat up by the exposure.

best...


----------



## MrsHolland

jld said:


> Not every man needs his confidence built.
> 
> Just sayin'.


I would break that down, there are very few absolutes in life.

eg, MrH is highly successful in his career, he does not need his confidence built. In this part of his life I am his confidante and the person he has discussions with in regard to the direction he wants to take, new opportunities etc. He does not need his ego boosted or confidence built at all with his career. All good.

He is a very confident lover, the most confident I have ever experienced. Not arrogant, very generous and confident. My reaction and eagerness is a confidence boosting, positive loop. All good.

Where I am his rock is in regard to life with his ex who has medically diagnosed mental health issues. My POV in this dept. is balanced, non biased and non judgemental. He on the other hand struggles in his dealings with her, she has spent over 2 decades undermining him and at times his confidence is shot to pieces when dealing with her. 
This does not scare me at all, I don't see him as weak or insecure, in fact I see him as very strong. I would have completely crumbled years ago in his shoes.


----------



## aine

nirvana said:


> I've learned it the hard way that it is better to hide one's insecurities from my wife and discuss things with my male friends. Women, in my experience, have a tendency to think of you as weak, compare you to some other woman's husband who she thinks is secure and strong and infallible. I used to foolishly share my work issues with my wife for years when she was a SAHM. She never understood and thought that it was simple as "work hard ---> get promoted". Now that she is working, she sees reality a bit more clearer. In any case, I don't want her "solutions" to my issues when she does not understand the problem to begin with. Her solutions are more in the tone of your problem is so simple, here is what I would do when her solution does not match the problem.
> 
> Better to discuss with the guys, they know what I am going through. There are times when I wonder why women are portrayed to be understand and compassionate. Why don't I get any of the compassion? Of course, the reply will be "it is your fault!", so I don't bother anymore.
> 
> Sad but this is reality.


You are making a huge generalisation about women. I constantly listen to my husband about his work issues and even give good advice on what he should do. He takes a while to warm to my advice (if it was someone else given the advice he would take it immediately though it might be exactly what I said the week before! :scratchhead:

However, when I want to talk about my own struggles with work, I get glib statements like, 'be thankful for what you have', oh, you should do A, B and then C.
Agreed men and women are different, generally woman are not looking for solutions but empathy or comfort, men usually look for solutions and maybe some encouragement.


----------



## turnera

My guess is that, in cultures like India, women learn to become 'strong' or 'aggressive' or demanding because culturally, they have little power, so they control what they can in their family.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> My guess is that, in cultures like India, women learn to become 'strong' or 'aggressive' or demanding because culturally, they have little power, so they control what they can in their family.


One of my female neighbors in India told me something similar to that. She said that women had their ways of influencing events. 

She herself was very cunning. And considering how ruthless her husband was, I think it was probably how she survived.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

But the problem can be when a wife hurts her husband by having an affair and says things that kill his confidence.

And then she starts to despise her husband for lacking confidence!

It's like punching someone in the face and then going: "Oh, yuck! You have a black eye! That's gross!"


----------



## *Deidre*

Not sure I'd say it causes a woman to fall out of love, but it causes her to lose respect for him. Likewise, most guys don't have respect for women with low self esteem.


----------



## 2ntnuf

*Deidre* said:


> Not sure I'd say it causes a woman to fall out of love, but it causes her to lose respect for him. Likewise, most guys don't have respect for women with low self esteem.


Respect and love seem to go hand in hand, from what I can tell. 

No respect, no love. 

Unless we are talking about those suffering, then we may be talking about patronization or pity.


----------



## *Deidre*

2ntnuf said:


> Respect and love seem to go hand in hand, from what I can tell.
> 
> No respect, no love.
> 
> Unless we are talking about those suffering, then we may be talking about patronization or pity.


Well, you could love someone you don't respect, but without both, the relationship won't last long.


----------



## 2ntnuf

*Deidre* said:


> Well, you could love someone you don't respect, but without both, the relationship won't last long.


Give me a for instance. An example, cause I don't see it. I used to think that before I came to TAM.

If you mean doing things that look like love to a partner, I just don't think that is real love or respect. It's manipulation, I think.


----------



## *Deidre*

2ntnuf said:


> Give me a for instance. An example, cause I don't see it. I used to think that before I came to TAM.
> 
> If you mean doing things that look like love to a partner, I just don't think that is real love or respect. It's manipulation, I think.


An example might be you fall in love with someone. Then you marry the person. The person starts feeling insecure about their looks, because he/she has gained weight, let's say. Their insecurity takes over the relationship. You still love the person, but you have lost respect for them. If you truly love someone, not sure that ever goes away, but respect can go away.


----------



## 2ntnuf

*Deidre* said:


> An example might be you fall in love with someone. Then you marry the person. The person starts feeling insecure about their looks, because he/she has gained weight, let's say. Their insecurity takes over the relationship. You still love the person, but you have lost respect for them. *If you truly love someone, not sure that ever goes away*, but respect can go away.


Hmmm...(thinking)

Good point, but I'm not so sure the next man or woman in one's life wouldn't leave if they thought that.

I've been told love does go away. So, maybe we are back on the issue. Each of us looks at love in a different way. 

Maybe it's not an absolute and therefore unanswerable?


----------



## *Deidre*

2ntnuf said:


> Hmmm...(thinking)
> 
> Good point, but I'm not so sure the next man or woman in one's life wouldn't leave if they thought that.
> 
> I've been told love does go away. So, maybe we are back on the issue. Each of us looks at love in a different way.
> 
> Maybe it's not an absolute and therefore unanswerable?


Yea, matters of the heart are subjective, I guess. 

The scenario I shared is happening to a friend of mine who's in her late 20's and had a baby recently, and feels insecure about herself and looks. She is jealous of her husband and accuses him of flirting with women when he isn't. (her husband is a great guy, I can't see him flirting, but maybe) And they fight a lot she tells me over this, and he now has shut down a bit and to me, he still loves her but probably has lost respect because of her insecure behavior right now.


----------



## 2ntnuf

*Deidre* said:


> Yea, matters of the heart are subjective, I guess.
> 
> The scenario I shared is happening to a friend of mine who's in her late 20's and had a baby recently, and feels insecure about herself and looks. She is jealous of her husband and accuses him of flirting with women when he isn't. (her husband is a great guy, I can't see him flirting, but maybe) And they fight a lot she tells me over this, and he now has shut down a bit and to me, he still loves her but probably has lost respect because of her insecure behavior right now.


Love is a strange thing for me. When I was in love, I let things go that I never would have otherwise. I saw my wife through those love goggles. I never saw her as anything, but beautiful. I wish I would have told her that more.

She was insecure about her body. To tell the truth, it's the first thing I saw. I heard her voice first, but didn't really pay attention. I couldn't help it looking at her. Then, once I got a good look, I started to listen. Objectify much? Sorry, I can't help it. I hope it wasn't blatant. I didn't mean it to be hurtful to her.

I never saw anyone else, whether she gained weight or lost it. I always saw her and the woman inside her. Those two combined with the love I felt, made anything I noticed seem insignificant. He love was what I wanted. The physical was a product of mutual love. Or, at least I thought. 

I guess what I am saying is, many do this to themselves. They believe they are less beautiful; less attractive; less sexy. I bet, in her husband's eyes, she is just who he married, and much much more. 

He needs to help her get some post partum counseling and learn how to help her see herself as he does. 

I hope it's not too late.


----------



## jld

*Deidre* said:


> Yea, matters of the heart are subjective, I guess.
> 
> The scenario I shared is happening to a friend of mine who's in her late 20's and had a baby recently, and feels insecure about herself and looks. She is jealous of her husband and accuses him of flirting with women when he isn't. (her husband is a great guy, I can't see him flirting, but maybe) And they fight a lot she tells me over this, and he now has shut down a bit and to me, he still loves her but probably has lost respect because of her insecure behavior right now.


Have you tried to reassure her?

When a person is lacking confidence, they can use every bit of support they can get. If she cannot get it from her husband, maybe she can get it from her friends. 

And if she gets enough, and starts to feel better, maybe she can reassure her husband. If one of them can get on a better path, it may inspire the other to join in.


----------



## Begin again

TheTruthHurts said:


> Simmer down you two
> 
> Seriously both have valid perspectives, but I do believe we don't know what we have or are missing until we are challenged in life.
> 
> Jdawg has very valid points for anyone with a few gray hairs.
> 
> I've been fortunate in that I have the same relationship that I've had for 30+ years, which I began as a virgin. Both of us were virgins actually.
> 
> So we missed out on much, but benefitted in ways others haven't in terms of dealing with the past. No comparisons - we only have each other in the whole world - neither has had others and neither wants others...
> 
> I personally would have issues with a woman's sexual past because I didn't have one... as would my W. That doesn't make us wrong either..., just inexperienced and perhaps insecure.
> 
> Nice transition to the topic at hand, no?
> 
> So, Celes, if my W were hit by a bus tomorrow, and I met a woman 3 years later and was apprehensive about her sexual past, and therefore was insecure and asked, would I be wrong?


I think there's a real difference in having moments of insecurity vs having insecurity affect the majority of your life.

Take the above example: he's never been with another woman, just his wife who has passed on, while his new girlfriend has had many sexual partners. This is situational, and how he deals with the information that matters here.

And if you live and love inside your insecurities, that's when there is real relationship trouble. I think of the women who don't like their bodies and so reject sex, or the men who are "Nice Guys" and operate on covert contracts. Those people live in their insecurity and it will impact many important areas of their love lives and lives in general.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DustyDog

2ntnuf said:


> Respect and love seem to go hand in hand, from what I can tell.
> 
> No respect, no love.


In this context, what do you mean by respect? That you view a person as having achieved some level of social status or success?


----------



## 2ntnuf

DustyDog said:


> In this context, what do you mean by respect? That you view a person as having achieved some level of social status or success?


It's hard to explain, but I will try.

It has to do with what the woman says and does with respect to her opinions, intelligence and maturity. 

I don't really care that much about money. I wouldn't want a burden, simply because I don't have much now. Not really for any other reason.

Of course, the more there is, the more choices there are in life and the more there is to do beyond work and home.

However, I only seem to notice if the person spends unwisely, no matter how much she has. You can have little, spend carefully and find you are able to enrich your life to some extent. That knowledge is more important to me.

So, I have built respect for the woman through these interactions and communications. 

I guess it has a little to do with status. Simply in the sense that the more similar our developmental years were to each other, the more likelihood there is that we would be compatible. 

One of the things that messes up an otherwise good relationship is misunderstandings. That's why I look at similar backgrounds.

Hope that makes some sense. Like I said, it's difficult to explain.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Begin again said:


> I think there's a real difference in having moments of insecurity vs having insecurity affect the majority of your life.
> 
> Take the above example: he's never been with another woman, just his wife who has passed on, while his new girlfriend has had many sexual partners. This is situational, and how he deals with the information that matters here.
> 
> And if you live and love inside your insecurities, that's when there is real relationship trouble. I think of the women who don't like their bodies and so reject sex, or the men who are "Nice Guys" and operate on covert contracts. Those people live in their insecurity and it will impact many important areas of their love lives and lives in general.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I don't understand what you're saying. I don't understand what "live and love inside your insecurities" means.

As a man, sexuality is one of my most significant issues, well ahead of financial security, relating verbally with others, work stability, etc.

IMO it would've fool hearty to ignore a major disconnect and lack of shared experience in such a basic aspect of my life.

Of course, through talking and understanding and reflecting, it might be possible to traverse that huge chasm, but pretending like it isn't there is a recipe for relationship failure.

At least that's how I see it. In a very secure way, I might add 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Begin again

DustyDog said:


> In this context, what do you mean by respect? That you view a person as having achieved some level of social status or success?


I don't think this is what we mean by respect in this context. It's really respect that you earn over time inside a specific relationship. And while it may ebb and flow a bit, it's usually present to a good degree in happily married couples.

Does he listen when she offers her opinion/perspective, or does he turn a deaf ear/tell her she's flat wrong? Now, in my relationships I need to at least think your view isn't total crap or I can't respect it and therefore can't respect you. So, some of this comes back to overall compatibility.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nirvana

aine said:


> You are making a huge generalisation about women. I constantly listen to my husband about his work issues and even give good advice on what he should do. He takes a while to warm to my advice (if it was someone else given the advice he would take it immediately though it might be exactly what I said the week before! :scratchhead:
> 
> However, when I want to talk about my own struggles with work, I get glib statements like, 'be thankful for what you have', oh, you should do A, B and then C.
> Agreed men and women are different, generally woman are not looking for solutions but empathy or comfort, men usually look for solutions and maybe some encouragement.


Well, I was just relating my experience. Agreed, that all women are not like this.

When I talk about my work problems, I don't expect her to solve them. She has only 2 years in recent times and I have about 2 decades. She was a SAHM for many years. She's never been in situations where I have been where I had to bite my tongue and take the bs to keep my job. Women rarely face racism at work but non-white men do. Women do face sexism but they also benefit from being women as there are programs to encourage them. So there is nothing my wife can say that helps me from the solution point of view, but she offers silly sounding solutions that just piss me off even more. 
All she needs to do is give me a hug and boost my confidence instead of giving me sanctimonious advice.


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