# Meaning of Marriage



## DosXXMan

Just read a discussion in here about the meaning of marriage: people arguing whether gay, interracial, and consenting non-monogamous marriages were really marriages. I think they missed the point, simply because even the most widely accepted vision of what most consider a "traditional marriages" is so new and fluid. The truth is that the modern version of a marriage, one based on love, equality, shared responsibilities, monogamy, and life-long commitment are very new and novel concepts. This notion of "traditional marriage" as something passed down from generations is nothing more than a fantasy. Reality is that we are still struggling to figure out the definition of marriage.

Why is this notion of "traditional marriage" fictitious? For starters, until a few generations ago very rarely people chose their spouses based on love. Many had their spouses chosen by their parents or plain need. Potential mates were scarce and there were plenty of other more urgent considerations other than love in picking spouses. Equality among spouses was also a completely absurd concept. Men and women were expected to do very different things and their roles at home were not only very well defined but also radically different. The concept of monogamy mostly only applied to women. Men, particularly those wealthy and powerful, were not expected by anyone -including their wives- to not indulge in sexual adventures with other partners. And life-long commitments were incredibly relative as lives were usually cut very short by disease or a bad pregnancy. Reality is the average marriage lasted less only a few years. Despite our fantasies, most of our predecessors had marriages that were mostly practical, unromantic, and non-monogamous. Very much unlike what we now expect from marriage.

No wonder so many people struggle with marriage nowadays. Many people fall out of love, find themselves cheating (or being cheated on), bored, unappreciated, and just unhappy. They blame their partners and themselves. Many will blame the "media", "liberals", or just someone else. They don't realize our expectations of marriage are way beyond anything humans have faced in the past. And the reason why we struggle in defining and finding the proper rules to make it work.

My point is that there is no absolute definition of marriage or rules of right vs. wrong. We are all just trying to fit these unrealistic expectations into our lives and biological realities. Very stressful for everyone. My guess is that our definition and rules of marriage will change quite dramatically in the future. Which hopefully will happen soon.

Comments?


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## Ynot

I would largely agree with you. But, I had to come to this conclusion kicking and screaming after my 24 year marriage ended in divorce. However, you are correct in many of your observations. 

The fairy tale is deeply embedded in our society. In fact I would say the fairy tale is probably responsible for many of the divorces we see, especially gray or silver divorces involving aging baby boomers (such as myself). Either thru marriages that never should have taken place to begin with or thru marriages that ended because one or the other felt unhappy that they were not living the fairy tale.

Another concept that needs buried is the idea of the "soul mate". It is crazy to believe that there is ONE person for you in the whole world, when reality tells us that the options are virtually unlimited.


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## sokillme

I don't get your point really. Why does it matter if you call it traditional or not. The bottom line is as you state the *modern version of a marriage, one based on love, equality, shared responsibilities, monogamy, and life-long commitment*, this is what most people expect out of marriage in our world today. There can be no doubt that this is the commitment most people expect from themselves and their spouses when they say I do. Whether or not it is a new concept does really matter or absolve anyone from their responsibilities. This is the societal norm for the last 100 years or so. 

If this is too much to expect then don't enter into a marriage. It's really that simple, no one is forcing anyone to get married, or be monogamous. If you enter into a marriage keep your commitments. That is basically the bottom line.

Sorry but post like this just sounds like a pseudo intellectual way to justify cheating to me. Maybe this isn't you but I always find arguments like this to come from people who don't really like the fact that 75% of the population still want to have a monogamous relationship and marriage. Despite whether they keep there commitments or not, for most this is the ideal that they strive for. Even cheaters want their spouses to be monogamous they just want to be able to cheat and be vampires. Anyway I think arguments like this (modern marriage is too damn hard) are really because it sucks for people who want open marriages that they only have about 25% of the gene pool to choose from. I get it you want more hot people on your team. 

I give you credit, at least you are not pretending to be monogamous. I actually see the concept of open marriage as a very good thing for society, I really hope this will bring some of the people who would normally cheat out of the shadows I hope they accept what they are and marry each other. However I don't think there will be more then 25% of the world interested in it. The rest will still want a modern marriage as you described it and about half of them will be vampires. 

Maybe we will all have chips in are brains one day that will tell us whether or not we can be trusted. Or maybe VR porn and sex bots will be so real a good portion of people won't even marry.

Oh one more thing, if you took the vows it's WRONG to cheat.


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## DosXXMan

Ynot: I completely agree on the concept of "soul mate". What an amazingly heavy burden for everyone to carry.


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## Ynot

@sokillme apparently you missed the fact that the definition of marriage has changed dramatically over the past 100 years and will probably change as much or more over the next 100 years. As DosXX stated the reality is that we are still struggling to define exactly what marriage is. 
Without a doubt the definition you provided is what most marriages are based upon, but reality is rendering the ideal to be less than attainable in many cases. Hence the numbers of divorces, the fact that youth are delaying or forgoing marriage and yes, the amount of cheating.
The "modern" definition of marriage is under assault by the world itself for precisely the reasons DosXX stated - we are outliving our emotional attachments, the world is a smaller place now and our prosperity has made raising children and simple survival much easier without the commitment (and legal entanglements) of marriage.
It isn't making excuses for cheating, it is recognizing that society is changing and the definition of marriage is trying to catch up.


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## BioFury

Marriage was not created for selfish people who don't hold themselves to any standard but their own. Marriage would be very simple, and relatively easy, if everyone was raised in a moral and Godly way. But they aren't.

It's no surprise that when rotten eggs are put into a cake mix, that it doesn't come out as intended.


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## NoChoice

I believe that marriage evolved as the intellect of the species was evolving. However, as we are now devolving, marriage cannot sustain. Children cannot be expected to make lifelong commitments, they simply haven't the intellect necessary to do so. Marriage was evolving to be a relationship between mature adults. It is no wonder that it is waning in this intellectually barren wasteland.


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## zookeeper

Why is there a need to redefine terms? How about just being upfront with the people you get involved with about what you want and what you are willing to give?

If you do that, it shouldn't matter what (if anything) you call your relationship. What you propose seems pretty similar to changing the definition of thin so that fat people can call themselves that. What's wrong with just living the life you want to live and sharing it with someone who accepts it? Why does the commonly accepted definition of marriage need to change to confirm to you?

Honestly, I couldn't care less if you want to have a completely open relationship and call it marriage. What you don't get to do is demand that everyone else modify their definition. And I still don't get why you would care enough to make the effort.


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## sokillme

Ynot said:


> @sokillme apparently you missed the fact that the definition of marriage has changed dramatically over the past 100 years and will probably change as much or more over the next 100 years. As DosXX stated the reality is that we are still struggling to define exactly what marriage is.
> Without a doubt the definition you provided is what most marriages are based upon, but reality is rendering the ideal to be less than attainable in many cases. Hence the numbers of divorces, the fact that youth are delaying or forgoing marriage and yes, the amount of cheating.
> The "modern" definition of marriage is under assault by the world itself for precisely the reasons DosXX stated - we are outliving our emotional attachments, the world is a smaller place now and our prosperity has made raising children and simple survival much easier without the commitment (and legal entanglements) of marriage.
> It isn't making excuses for cheating, it is recognizing that society is changing and the definition of marriage is trying to catch up.


I didn't miss it, I don't think it matters. Marriage is basically a contract. When you make the contract you know what you are agreeing to, at that point for the people who signed the contract the definition is static. So it doesn't matter what societies definition is anymore. 

I really don't think the definition is changing anyway. I think the definition that OP laid out is a very good definition that everyone aspires to and has aspired to for the last 100 years in western couture. No one can deny that that is what people expect, and people are still trying to and getting married. There are still songs, books, movies all about it. I just think that now a days people don't honor their commitments. They justify their bad behavior and the world is very self indulgent. We have been a me-centric society for many years, no wonder a selfless institution like marriage is too hard for most people. The problem isn't marriage it's the people. The good thing may be that there is less taboo about not being married. My point is the answer isn't lets make marriage like a very good friend that you share an apartment with (which about 75% of the world will bulk at). The answer is if you don't want to follow what most people want then just don't get married, or find someone who wants to share an apartment with their special friend while f-cking others on the side. More power to you. 

Again open marriage isn't going to become the norm, mostly because it is not a very stable environment to raise children in. Most woman want stability for their children. This isn't going to change. The phenomenon of single mothers is the real consequence for woman who don't want to marry and still want children, or who marry men who want to f-ck around, it's not open marriage. Most woman reject that idea. 

I just don't think your premise holds, I think if we to time travel 100 years from now people will still be getting married in similar numbers expecting the same definition that OP laid out. I will agree the getting rid of the fairy tail of soulmates and happily ever after is a good thing. marriage isn't a panacea to solve all your problems.


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## BioFury

sokillme said:


> I didn't miss it, I don't think it matters. Marriage is basically a contract. When you make the contract you know what you are agreeing to, at that point for the people who signed the contract the definition is static. So it doesn't matter what societies definition is anymore.


Provided he hasn't changed his opinion, Ynot doesn't believe people are obligated to keep their word if they don't feel like it anymore. So a contract would never be static in the case of people like him.


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## Ynot

BioFury said:


> Provided he hasn't changed his opinion, Ynot doesn't believe people are obligated to keep their word if they don't feel like it anymore. So a contract would never be static in the case of people like him.


What in the heck are you talking about? Where did I ever say any such thing. I swear some people just like to make things up. I guess projecting is easier than thinking critically.
The OP stated the definition of marriage is something society is struggling with. The facts bear this out. Deny them all you want because you are hurt. I was hurt too. I was hurt when my Ex decided to walk out. But guess what? I realize now that the idea of "modern marriage" is a fairy tale. My ex didn't hurt me, my belief in the fairy tale hurt me.


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## Ynot

sokillme said:


> I didn't miss it, I don't think it matters. Marriage is basically a contract. When you make the contract you know what you are agreeing to, at that point for the people who signed the contract the definition is static. So it doesn't matter what societies definition is anymore.
> 
> I really don't think the definition is changing anyway. I think the definition that OP laid out is a very good definition that everyone aspires to and has aspired to for the last 100 years in western couture. No one can deny that that is what people expect, and people are still trying to and getting married. There are still songs, books, movies all about it. I just think that now a days people don't honor their commitments. They justify their bad behavior and the world is very self indulgent. We have been a me-centric society for many years, no wonder a selfless institution like marriage is too hard for most people. The problem isn't marriage it's the people. The good thing may be that there is less taboo about not being married. My point is the answer isn't lets make marriage like a very good friend that you share an apartment with (which about 75% of the world will bulk at). The answer is if you don't want to follow what most people want then just don't get married, or find someone who wants to share an apartment with their special friend while f-cking others on the side. More power to you.
> 
> Again open marriage isn't going to become the norm, mostly because it is not a very stable environment to raise children in. Most woman want stability for their children. This isn't going to change. The phenomenon of single mothers is the real consequence for woman who don't want to marry and still want children, or who marry men who want to f-ck around, it's not open marriage. Most woman reject that idea.
> 
> I just don't think your premise holds, I think if we to time travel 100 years from now people will still be getting married in similar numbers expecting the same definition that OP laid out. I will agree the getting rid of the fairy tail of soulmates and happily ever after is a good thing. marriage isn't a panacea to solve all your problems.


I see so all of the things that you listed are just exceptions and not trends (despite the fact that analysis indicates the exceptions are becoming the norm) and the definition of marriage is suddenly just going to stabilize right where you want it too after continually evolving for millennia? Cool, can I have some of what you are smoking? I am sorry, I choose to live int he real world and not the make believe world of fairy tales


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## sokillme

Ynot said:


> I see so all of the things that you listed are just exceptions and not trends (despite the fact that analysis indicates the exceptions are becoming the norm) and the definition of marriage is suddenly just going to stabilize right where you want it too after continually evolving for millennia? Cool, can I have some of what you are smoking? I am sorry, I choose to live int he real world and not the make believe world of fairy tales


Yep pretty much exceptions. I think there is a better chance marriage will go away. Most people think open marriage doesn't make sense, from a guys point of view why subject your financial well being, just F-ck around.


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## MrsAldi

I definitely think people should make their expectations of what they except in a marriage from one another and make their own. 
Society concepts and romanticism is quite dangerous, when it comes down to any individuals a one size doesn't fit all. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## BioFury

Ynot said:


> What in the heck are you talking about? Where did I ever say any such thing. I swear some people just like to make things up. I guess projecting is easier than thinking critically.
> The OP stated the definition of marriage is something society is struggling with. The facts bear this out. Deny them all you want because you are hurt. I was hurt too. I was hurt when my Ex decided to walk out. But guess what? I realize now that the idea of "modern marriage" is a fairy tale. My ex didn't hurt me, my belief in the fairy tale hurt me.


Ynot: "_The fact that he already said yes is irrelevant... Neither of you deserve a life time of regrets because of a vow you made years ago under circumstances that have changed._"

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/299666-what-point-do-we-decide-our-lives-would-better-spent-other-people.html

No, the fairytale recipe is sound. Either one or both of you were rotten eggs, and thus messed up the cake. Find/become a good egg, and things will work out for you


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## uhtred

Interesting issues. 

I think a major problem is that people may get married with very different ideas of what "marriage" means. There are many definitions that can work, but if expectations are different, there are likely to be problems. 

Is marriage a sort of contract where effort is exchanged? Is a promise to do ones best for the other no matter what? Is it based on practical concerns or irrational love? What is the role of family and children?

I agree with others that Hollywood romance has done a terrible disservice to people by presenting an unrealistic view of relationships.


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## Emerging Buddhist

As long as you both shall love... how that holds is up to the participants.

Nothing more, nothing less...


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## Ynot

BioFury said:


> Ynot: "_The fact that he already said yes is irrelevant... Neither of you deserve a life time of regrets because of a vow you made years ago under circumstances that have changed._"
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/299666-what-point-do-we-decide-our-lives-would-better-spent-other-people.html
> 
> No, the fairytale recipe is sound. Either one or both of you were rotten eggs, and thus messed up the cake. Find/become a good egg, and things will work out for you


Nice cut-n-paste! Now lets read the whole quote:
"What if the greatest it can be is a life time of unmet needs and growing resentment? What if the greatest it can be means a life of emptiness? 
The fact that he already said yes is irrelevant. The fact that he is questioning his decision is relevant. 
OP, I think this is something that you and your wife need to discuss. She may actually be feeling the same way. The two of you could decide to mutually and civilly end the marriage. From the sounds of it she is as unhappy as you are. Neither of you deserve a life time of regrets because of a vow you made years ago under circumstance that have changed. Be true to yourself regardless."
So according to bio-fury some decision you made years ago, at a different point in your life, when you had different wants and needs should control the rest of your life? Let me guess - you are one of those people who think people don't change?
You might also notice, or probably not, in your effort to avoid a real discussion about this OP, that I never told anyone to cheat or lie, I suggested he speak to his wife because neither of them deserve a lifetime of regrets.


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## Ynot

sokillme said:


> Yep pretty much exceptions. I think there is a better chance marriage will go away. Most people think open marriage doesn't make sense, from a guys point of view why subject your financial well being, just F-ck around.


Wow, you have a real imagination there. Who has talked about an "open marriage"? Besides you, that is? If these are exceptions, why do they continue to gain popularity as a choice to be made? It is a fact that young people are waiting longer and longer to get married. It is a fact that more are foregoing marriage altogether. it is a fact that divorces among older people (aging baby boomers) are exploding. Yes, divorce among younger people has leveled off, mainly because #1 fewer are getting married #2 they are waiting til later in their lives and #3 many are just choosing to live together rather than submit to the romanticized fairy tale you are clinging to. These are facts, not exceptions.


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## SimplyAmorous

uhtred said:


> *I agree with others that Hollywood romance has done a terrible disservice to people by presenting an unrealistic view of relationships*.


 Does it make me Crazy to actually love & thoroughly enjoy the Romances Hollywood puts out.. but be sickened by the real lives of those making the movies, what we read in the pages of People & endless magazines standing in the check out lines..those, to me, are the bad examples...

I don't know.. I have a good marriage.. I love being married, we both wanted family, to live in the country.... I am a Romantic. I married a Romantic... not in the sense of "flowers, gifts, & jewelry".. but this write up captures it... 



> Being Romantic means being sensitive, affectionate, and spritually-inclined.
> 
> The paramount quality of a romantic person is sensitivity. The romantic is a person who FEELS deeply, and attaches a lot of meaning to those feelings. Because of this, the romantic will express him/herself through such things as affection, verbal declarations of love, and meaningful gestures, all of which come from deep within.
> 
> A romantic will perceive a richness of detail that is lost on the non-romantic type -- such things as the fleeting expression of a lover’s eyes. In a split second, the romantic has perceived a hint of sadness there, which the lover quickly tries to hide, by pretending it was never there to begin with. But the romantic saw it, and was touched by it....This takes sensitivity, depth of feeling, as well as spiritual awareness.
> 
> Romantic people LOVE to give love! Romantic types simply want to make sure that their partners feel loved, special, and appreciated. No gesture is either too big or small to show how they feel about their beloved.
> 
> Romance involves the total involvement with another person’s inner world -- their soul, their intellect, their heart. One gives all of oneself to this person, and being romantic certainly expresses how completely one is committed to this person, to being in a relationship with them.
> 
> To sum up, being a romantic entails being sensitive, expressive, and spiritual, not only in regards to one’s beloved, but in one’s life as well, through saturating it with great beauty.


 And Yes.. I wanted a man who "gets that".. feels this way about me too..We dated a # if yrs before we married...I felt it then.. as I still feel it today from him... 34 yrs later... it takes the mundane of our lives & lifts us up... we are very thankful for what we share... I still long for my husband's touch...

I can always tell by how someone talks ABOUT MARRIAGE, what it means to them.. if it's "just a piece of paper", it's irrelevant today "who needs it".... it's very telling to who we'd be compatible with..

Then too often people change after the vows.. Love & trusting another... there is always RISK here.....what can we offer but ourselves to do all we can to enhance the passion in our marriages.. to keep the flames burning at home.. but it will always take 2...*we need each other*...if one of us becomes selfish, cold, rejecting, spitting on the needs of the other .. it's going to shake the foundation.. 













DosXXMan said:


> Ynot: I completely agree on the concept of "soul mate". What an amazingly heavy burden for everyone to carry. And very limiting and asphyxiating for both spouses. A spouse should be a just a fellow traveler in this crazy travel through life. A friend ready to let us fly and explore and find ourselves. And we should do the same for them. No ownership or absurd expectations to "make us happy". And the blame that comes when spouses somehow fail to deliver such happiness. An easy way out from taking responsibility for our own lives. Worse, the expectation of the fairy tale many times does end up killing the beauty and pleasures we can find in our daily lives.










....On the whole Soul mate thing...this was a post I did years ago..



> For many yrs I used the term *Soulmate* in talking about my husband.....cause I always felt I found mine....(He still uses it in regards to me- I'm not going to yell at him for this)....
> 
> But one night yrs ago now.... I caught this Christian Marriage Counselor on TV ....talking about this concept/belief..... and how it has the potential to HURT many marriages...
> 
> Because when going through a really rough patch, one may start to QUESTION if who they are with = their "*Soul mate*"....or they missed him or her.... they entertain that their soul mate is still out there waiting to be found... tempted to chase some Romantic rainbow - dancing in their heads .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of sticking it out & working together for a reconciliation / that* hard work* needed to find peace & Harmony within the marriage, they are tempted to look outside of it.
> 
> So in this way, the "soul mate" belief can lead one down a wrong path ...
> 
> The Beef of that program was...a Marriage is what we put into it, where 2 people give & share lovingly & care about one another...this can be found with MANY people around the globe, also if we loose a spouse, we can find it with another ....compatibility is helpful here....but there is no bonafide soul mate for each.
> 
> I really enjoyed that program & seen much *WISDOM* in it...
> 
> Yet still...me & mine still refer to each other like this on occasion... We're not perfect..no one is or ever will be -fights will come....yet we can laugh & still find great love in those very "imperfections" ...my attempt at explaining this HERE >>
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...t-but-beauty-can-found-our-imperfections.html


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## sokillme

Ynot said:


> Wow, you have a real imagination there. Who has talked about an "open marriage"? Besides you, that is? If these are exceptions, why do they continue to gain popularity as a choice to be made? It is a fact that young people are waiting longer and longer to get married. It is a fact that more are foregoing marriage altogether. it is a fact that divorces among older people (aging baby boomers) are exploding. Yes, divorce among younger people has leveled off, mainly because #1 fewer are getting married #2 they are waiting til later in their lives and #3 many are just choosing to live together rather than submit to the romanticized fairy tale you are clinging to. These are facts, not exceptions.


OK whatever. Marriage is alive and well, and always will be. I believe for most humans natural state is monogamy, no matter what the Zeitgeist is. Most people strive for one partner to love them, yes they may be waiting longer which makes sense, hell I got married older, and they are not settling, also a good thing, but most if you ask most of them want to be married to one partner for their whole lives.


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## sokillme

SimplyAmorous said:


> Does it make me Crazy to actually love & thoroughly enjoy the Romances Hollywood puts out.


Hey I like it too. But if you have a good marriage you know that that is only part of what makes it work, and for the most part one of the more easier ones if both of you like that kind of thing. The hard part is dealing with their moods and cleaning their dirty underwear. To me that is love, true love is cleaning the toilets with your SO hairs on them. See I told you I was romantic .


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## Ynot

"Because when going through a really rough patch, one may start to QUESTION if who they are with = their "Soul mate"....or they missed him or her.... they entertain that their soul mate is still out there waiting to be found... tempted to chase some Romantic rainbow - dancing in their heads .....

Instead of sticking it out & working together for a reconciliation / that hard work needed to find peace & Harmony within the marriage, they are tempted to look outside of it. 

So in this way, the "soul mate" belief can lead one down a wrong path ..."

This^^^^^^ is what I met about the idea of the "soul mate". I think it can also cause marriages to happen that shouldn't. Such as, when individuals conflate the high of sexual gratification with the idea of having found a soulmate. Once that sexual high wears off or one becomes acclimated to it, the mistake becomes very apparent. And there is just as much danger in the opposite direction, where the partners hold off sexually, finding compatibility in other non-sexual ways. This presents its own danger because what if they later find they are not sexually compatible. Either way the petals often fall off the bloom of a "soul mate". The end result being the above.


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## BioFury

Ynot said:


> Nice cut-n-paste! Now lets read the whole quote:
> "What if the greatest it can be is a life time of unmet needs and growing resentment? What if the greatest it can be means a life of emptiness?
> The fact that he already said yes is irrelevant. The fact that he is questioning his decision is relevant.
> OP, I think this is something that you and your wife need to discuss. She may actually be feeling the same way. The two of you could decide to mutually and civilly end the marriage. From the sounds of it she is as unhappy as you are. Neither of you deserve a life time of regrets because of a vow you made years ago under circumstance that have changed. Be true to yourself regardless."
> So according to bio-fury some decision you made years ago, at a different point in your life, when you had different wants and needs should control the rest of your life? Let me guess - you are one of those people who think people don't change?
> You might also notice, or probably not, in your effort to avoid a real discussion about this OP, that I never told anyone to cheat or lie, I suggested he speak to his wife because neither of them deserve a lifetime of regrets.


You said exactly what I said that you said. The rest of your statement merely seeks to justify the suggested dishonesty, by stating that they don't deserve to be miserable.

"It's ok to lie, so long as it makes you happier."


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## Ynot

BioFury said:


> You said exactly what I said that you said. The rest of your statement merely seeks to justify the suggested dishonesty, by stating that they don't deserve to be miserable.
> 
> "It's ok to lie, so long as it makes you happier."


Who said anything about lying to anybody to make them selves happier? I told him to talk to his wife. When you talk to someone do you lie to them? I think your posts are exposing a lot more about how you think than you may intend. What dishonesty is there in talking to his wife? Boy you need to take care of your issues before making any up about me.


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## BioFury

Ynot said:


> Who said anything about lying to anybody to make them selves happier? I told him to talk to his wife. When you talk to someone do you lie to them? I think your posts are exposing a lot more about how you think than you may intend. What dishonesty is there in talking to his wife? Boy you need to take care of your issues before making any up about me.


You did suggest that he talk to his wife. But what you also suggested was that they could both agree to end the marriage on agreeable terms. And that there was no need for them to keep the oath they made to each other and to God, if that oath was no longer convenient. You were suggesting that they make themselves into liars.

But we're kinda derailing the thread, so lets bring this to a close. My original point, was that the institution of marriage is perfectly fine. It's the people who are participating in it, who are lacking.


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## Ynot

BioFury said:


> You did suggest that he talk to his wife. But what you also suggested was that they could both agree to end the marriage on agreeable terms. And that there was no need for them to keep the oath they made to each other and to God, if that oath was no longer convenient. You were suggesting that they make themselves into liars.
> 
> But we're kinda derailing the thread, so lets bring this to a close. My original point, was that the institution of marriage is perfectly fine. It's the people who are participating in it, who are lacking.


How is talking to his wife and them mutually agreeing to end a marriage lying? Are you referring to the oath? That was an oath they made to each other. The oath is not to make the other one unhappy for the rest of their life, it is actually one about enhancing the the others life. If it enhances the others life to be free of you and their obligation to you - how is that lying? In fact it is being as truthful and honest with your SO as you can possibly be. If anything you are honoring the oath more by being honest and ending something that isn't working for both of you, than you are by hanging onto an unhappy marriage because you made a promise years ago. If you think any one else owes you their happiness, I don't know what to tell you.


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## BioFury

Ynot said:


> How is talking to his wife and them mutually agreeing to end a marriage lying? Are you referring to the oath? That was an oath they made to each other. The oath is not to make the other one unhappy for the rest of their life, it is actually one about enhancing the the others life. If it enhances the others life to be free of you and their obligation to you - how is that lying? In fact it is being as truthful and honest with your SO as you can possibly be. If anything you are honoring the oath more by being honest and ending something that isn't working for both of you, than you are by hanging onto an unhappy marriage because you made a promise years ago. If you think any one else owes you their happiness, I don't know what to tell you.


You are correct, if they had merely made a covenant with each other, then they could mutually release each other from it. But, they chose to not only make the oath to each other, but to God as well. And a spouse doesn't have the authority to release you from an oath made to God.

Besides the fact that the union of marriage itself is under God's jurisdiction, and He has dictated that it is a permanent union. So even if a couple did not make an oath to Him during their ceremony, it wouldn't change anything. It's His institution, it's His world, and He sets the terms.


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## Ynot

BioFury said:


> You are correct, if they had merely made a covenant with each other, then they could mutually release each other from it. But, they chose to not only make the oath to each other, but to God as well. And a spouse doesn't have the authority to release you from an oath made to God.
> 
> Besides the fact that the union of marriage itself is under God's jurisdiction, and He has dictated that it is a permanent union. So even if a couple did not make an oath to Him during their ceremony, it wouldn't change anything. It's His institution, it's His world, and He sets the terms.


I am sure that will come as a surprise to the majority of the world, the majority of which do not believe in your particular world or follow your particular moral standards.


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## Married but Happy

BioFury said:


> Provided he hasn't changed his opinion, Ynot doesn't believe people are obligated to keep their word if they don't feel like it anymore. So a contract would never be static in the case of people like him.


Contracts are subject to interpretation and can be renegotiated. They are not necessarily static - or simple. Each state has their own version of the definition of marriage, especially when it comes to the financial details of ownership, money, and property. Contracts are frequently broken, or terminated for cause - marriage is no different. The state and society may impose penalties or compensation when that occurs, depending on the circumstances - this is sometimes true even if you do not have a state-recognized marriage.



> But, they chose to not only make the oath to each other, but to God as well. And a spouse doesn't have the authority to release you from an oath made to God.


Yes, if you happen to believe is God, or choose to apply a religious definition to marriage, then that factor may carry weight in your decisions. Many people don't take the concept of God seriously, even if they marry in a church - it's tradition, whether or not they respect it. For my own marriage, we rejected any religious component, as we are both atheists. Our commitment is only to each other, and aside from however we choose to define our marriage, only the state has any say, and that really only comes into play if we decide to terminate our contract legally.


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## Married but Happy

Emerging Buddhist said:


> As long as you both shall love... how that holds is up to the participants.
> 
> Nothing more, nothing less...


This is precisely the basis of our vows, and WE - and only we - define how that works for us. Of course, if that ever ceases to be the case, we'll have to deal with the laws of the state where we reside at the time.


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## uhtred

Since this is an anonymous forum, I can admit my darkest secret: Even though I'm a guy I actually like Hollywood romances.... I do realize that they represent real romance about as well as James Bond movies represent real espionage work. The concept of romance is great, as long as people really understand what is fantasy and what isn't. 








SimplyAmorous said:


> Does it make me Crazy to actually love & thoroughly enjoy the Romances Hollywood puts out.. but be sickened by the real lives of those making the movies, what we read in the pages of People & endless magazines standing in the check out lines..those, to me, are the bad examples...
> 
> I don't know.. I have a good marriage.. I love being married, we both wanted family, to live in the country.... I am a Romantic. I married a Romantic... not in the sense of "flowers, gifts, & jewelry".. but this write up captures it...
> 
> 
> 
> And Yes.. I wanted a man who "gets that".. feels this way about me too..We dated a # if yrs before we married...I felt it then.. as I still feel it today from him... 34 yrs later... it takes the mundane of our lives & lifts us up... we are very thankful for what we share... I still long for my husband's touch...
> 
> I can always tell by how someone talks ABOUT MARRIAGE, what it means to them.. if it's "just a piece of paper", it's irrelevant today "who needs it".... it's very telling to who we'd be compatible with..
> 
> Then too often people change after the vows.. Love & trusting another... there is always RISK here.....what can we offer but ourselves to do all we can to enhance the passion in our marriages.. to keep the flames burning at home.. but it will always take 2...*we need each other*...if one of us becomes selfish, cold, rejecting, spitting on the needs of the other .. it's going to shake the foundation..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....On the whole Soul mate thing...this was a post I did years ago..


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## DosXXMan

sokillme said:


> I didn't miss it, I don't think it matters. Marriage is basically a contract. When you make the contract you know what you are agreeing to, at that point for the people who signed the contract the definition is static. So it doesn't matter what societies definition is anymore.


A marriage is not a contract. A marriage is a promise. A contract is a legal business document, enforceable by law, and that is made in exchange for something of economic value. A promise comes from the heart and does not involve economic compensation.

Unfortunately, marriage is a promise most people make when they are young and quite literally drunk in the neuro-chemicals of infatuation and love and lust (yes, there are actually a few books you can read on the amazing brain chemistry of love). Gullible love birds buying into the absurdly false expectations of the modern day marriage. Not understanding it is all a clever rouse setup by Mother Nature. It is designed to get worry free young people to take on the unthinkable responsibilities to have and raise children. One of nature's most incredible tricks! And most people fall for it (thank God, otherwise we wouldn't be here). And will continue to do so for a very long time.

But, like other promises we make, at some point many realize the marital promise was simply not realistic. Just like that promise to lose 20 lbs by the time of the HS reunion. Despite our best intentions things just can't happen for most. The reason being that -in some ways- these promises go against our very nature. Research has clearly shown the neuro-chemicals of love, infatuation, and lust do change quite dramatically over time. Not only that, but we change, our partners change, and the world changes. And we live much longer. Some people stick to the promise even when it turns into a cruel punishment. Some just quit. Others revisit the promise. And, as the smart animals we are, we will eventually redefine the norms and expectations of marriages so that we do not set ourselves up for failure from the very beginning.


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## SimplyAmorous

sokillme said:


> Hey I like it too. But if you have a good marriage you know that that is only part of what makes it work, and for the most part one of the more easier ones if both of you like that kind of thing. The hard part is dealing with their moods and cleaning their dirty underwear. To me that is love, true love is cleaning the toilets with your SO hairs on them. See I told you I was romantic .


Sure there is the Unrealistic in Romance.... the characters are always model







, one is always available, like they fell out of the sky, no baggage, a crazy ex that screwed them up a bit.....then the man is always loaded, he may own a castle or something... Personally...I'd like to see a few "Blue collar" romances now & then... ..Though once it gets under way.. the mounting feelings, whatever challenge they face ..leading up to falling in love, the emotional climax...I love it !

There's only a couple hrs.. I think leaving out the dishes or cleaning toilets is Ok in these movies.. ha ha.. 

Isn't it what we all long for, ultimately....even if they present MEN, some rugged as steel, being too mushy...(my husband is an expressive sentimental type -he's weird like that) so to me, it's not all that unrealistic.. 

It's really about the feelings these movies evoke in us...they are mountain top feel good... this is the problem... some can not watch romances, it hurts too much.. they may want to shoot the screen.. I can understand that.. 

I guess I look at it this way.. we sure have enough killings, true murder brought to life, glamorizing fictional Mistresses / Cheating -on reality Tv too!.... Lifetime movies- they have grown progressively SICKER over the years...to where I am covering my eyes silently screaming to not see the blade plunging into a body/ blood & gore is everywhere...... So yeah.. I'll take the unrealistic romances over some of that.. 

Always enjoyed the classics.. like  Wuthering Heights (so tragic!), Pride & Prejuduce...Watched Sid & Nancy  yrs ago.....now that was a dysfunctional drug addicted mess, but it goes to show no matter how f***ed up one is.. there is probably someone out there to share your obsession with you.. until death...it was still a love story. 

I never did see  The Vow  (a true story).. pretty sure I will cry all the way through that one.. 

We've never had fights, even a spat over picking up or who does what in the house.. that's my role... dirty socks.. toilet rings.. it's all good....

Yes we all get moody, have bad days, stress at work, kids driving us mad... many times just seeing him walk through the door...it's calming... we share our day.. we make each other feel better.. truth is... I've caused more fights (stupid fights) over wanting more sex..worrying he's loosing his sex drive....I had this crazy hormonal surge in mid life... was loving it but also.. it was tormenting at times.. I could hardly concentrate.. I felt like a young man in puberty... how many men could keep up with 3 times a day -my husband couldn't... . .. Even at that, these were some of the best times too...He could think of far worse things for me to be grouchy about.. that I couldn't get enough of his body! ...He'd joke about it..... finally I got it through my thick skull that his desire is fine, he's Ok.. it was me out of whack...

Then turn that upside down & go back 19 yrs.. he was the higher drive.. and I was oblivious.. he was passive.. and well.. we missed each other more than we should have.. We all have some regrets, right... so long as it's not with who we are with...




uhtred said:


> Since this is an anonymous forum, I can admit my darkest secret: Even though I'm a guy I actually like Hollywood romances.... I do realize that they represent real romance about as well as James Bond movies represent real espionage work. The concept of romance is great, as long as people really understand what is fantasy and what isn't.


Have any of you met someone who's living in a bonafide "fantasy world" due to -too many romantic movies, books? ... how does such a woman act ?? It's a serious question..

We caught a movie on this once... I forget the name.. but this young woman literally entertained all this BLISS inside her head against the obvious of how the man (who was married ) was treating her...oh it was tender at 1st ...but basically HE WAS USING HER for sex.. she was pathetically deluded..it was sad... wouldn't believe him when he wanted rid of her even...she was still entertaining them getting married, living happily ever after... it was a fictional movie.. but as deluded as she was.. I never met anyone that nuts -or they would have mental issues..


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## jb02157

SimplyAmorous said:


> I had this crazy hormonal surge in mid life... was loving it but also.. it was tormenting at times.. I could hardly concentrate.. I felt like a young man in puberty... how many men could keep up with 3 times a day -my husband couldn't... . .. Even at that, these were some of the best times too...He could think of far worse things for me to be grouchy about.. that I couldn't get enough of his body! ...He'd joke about it..... finally I got it through my thick skull that his desire is fine, he's Ok.. it was me out of whack...


I can't even imagine my wife doing this. It might have saved our marriage.


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## SimplyAmorous

DosXXMan said:


> Unfortunately,* marriage is a promise most people make when they are young and quite literally drunk in the neuro-chemicals of infatuation and love and lust (yes, there are actually a few books you can read on the amazing brain chemistry of love). *Gullible love birds buying into the absurdly false expectations of the modern day marriage. Not understanding it is all a clever rouse setup by Mother Nature. It is designed to get worry free young people to take on the unthinkable responsibilities to have and raise children. One of nature's most incredible tricks! And most people fall for it (thank God, otherwise we wouldn't be here). And will continue to do so for a very long time.


 Relationship experts will tell you a couple can not tell the difference between Infatuation and love -due to the c0cktail of hormones in the beginning months.. very true... each couple should give it at least 18 full months.. if after this time.. they are still feeling it.. still enjoying each other. still wanting that future together...after the passion has died down .. but a spark is still lit for each other...they have beat the odds.. 

Although I can pick out parts of truth in so much of what you speak.. it's like you HATE the whole notion of marriage.. you see it only for blind fools -leading themselves to slaughter or something.... what's behind this .. what's your story...were you married.. worst mistake of your life.. is all your friends divorced & you sit around laughing at how absurd the notice of a happy marriage is?

My parents married too young (both 18) my father had a high sex drive.. infatuation at play for sure...My Mothers Mother kept harping on her to get married since they were sleeping together (back in the 60's).... that was a train wreck.. they were the most incompatible couple I've probably ever met.. I met my husband when I was 15.. he was 18.. we didn't marry till our early 20's... we had many years to KNOW how compatible we were...it was way beyond infatuation for us.


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## SimplyAmorous

DosXXMan said:


> But, like other promises we make, at some point many realize the marital promise was simply not realistic. Just like that promise to lose 20 lbs by the time of the HS reunion. Despite our best intentions things just can't happen for most. The reason being that -in some ways- these promises go against our very nature. Research has clearly shown the neuro-chemicals of love, infatuation, and lust do change quite dramatically over time. *Not only that, but we change, our partners change, and the world changes. *And we live much longer. Some people stick to the promise even when it turns into a cruel punishment. Some just quit. Others revisit the promise. And, as the smart animals we are, we will eventually redefine the norms and expectations of marriages so that we do not set ourselves up for failure from the very beginning.


 So what of those who beat the odds... do they not deserve a mention?

I've done 2 threads on "People changing"... I find it a very interesting subject... Yes many people change, there is no denying this....but at the same time....I don't believe all people change all that much .. some do.. some don't.. it's not a universal thing...that we'll be like this completely different person in another 20 yrs.. I think it's more that resentment gets a hold in a marriage & this changes US.. it changes our wants, and too often WHO we want.... 

This was a thread of mine > http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...y-change-over-years-how-have-you-changed.html



> I see these comments everywhere.. consistently.. how people CHANGE.. everyone changes... add: If you haven't changed.. something must be wrong with you.. even though we outright admit that THESE VERY CHANGES are what often hurts our relationships, marriages .
> 
> So HOW have you changed, how has your spouse changed... whether in good ways, or bad that has hurt your marriage.. or enhanced it?
> 
> I tend to see it in another light too...that many times, especially with younger people... they may not be fully in touch with who they are .. what they want in life.. still trying to figure this out...but it was there all the time.. I am not one who feels we fundamentally change all that much I guess -at our core. At least this hasn't been my experience so much. .
> 
> If I went back in time.. I still understand who I was.. what I wanted ..it would still be the same today as it was yesterday.. I have grown in some areas that has benefited our marriage though.. lost some inhibitions (sexually speaking)... all a plus.
> 
> I can't say my husband has changed much at all.. he's making more money, he's a dad.. he's a better mechanic..but really.. at his core.. he's the same sweet guy I met when I was 15. Are we not normal?


 Also > http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ng-vows-now-who-what-why-could-weathered.html



> I see it all the time in TAM posts..... *"EVERYONE CHANGES*".....we're supposed to change as the years progress....but HOW much of WHO WE REALLY ARE at our core
> changes with the years...(how we envisioned our future, our deepest longings, what brings us happiness, how we communicate, our humor style, our dreams, goals and HOW WE LOVE)...
> 
> I assume the vast majority were so happy on their wedding day..they thought they could conquer the world together...after all that's why we get married
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...this thread is about what REALLY CHANGED...WHO CHANGED...to bring you to where you are now....what caused the collide... or did one spouse change while the other remained the same...
> 
> I often see posters give links to how our brains are not fully developed till age 25... taken from one such article...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to new studies, the pre-frontal cortex usually does not reach a level of genuine maturity until someone reaches their mid-twenties! "It's sort of unfair to expect [teens] to have adult levels of organizational skills or decision-making before their brains are finished being built"
> 
> 
> 
> Yet many has married before this... and it has lasted... or after our mid 20's...still marital strife seems to reign... So what are people missing during dating...is it a matter of NOT getting to know each other deeply/ vulnerably ENOUGH ....
> 
> What best describes your situation in hindsight...
> 
> *1.* Missing Red Flags
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .. *caught up in the "whirlwind / dopamine rush / "LOVE can conquer all" mentality.* Maybe friends / relatives even pointed them out...but you felt they were all wrong.
> 
> *2.* Partner misrepresented himself/ herself...(Ex...Man treats his girl like a Queen....ends up an abuser after the Vows..or Girlfriend very sexual / then suddenly the sex dies once the ring is on the finger)...and it feels like a "Bait & Switch"....
> 
> *3* No Misrepresentation ...all was discussed/ agreed upon going in/ no blinders ...then after so many yrs...*Priorities change*..and one feels deeply blindsided...(Example....Agreeing to have children, then one changes his or her mind...)
> 
> *4* Lacking Self awareness to own's own needs & desires in Marriage...maybe low self esteem..."Settled"... Naive....went in blindly...not asking enough questions .... realized later ...very little compatibility ...
> 
> *5* We haven't really changed much......what we wanted then...it still what we'd want today... the smaller changes that came... we grew & weathered together...
> 
> *6* We've changed A LOT over the years, growing pains to show for it....but here we are, we are still Kicking...our foundation was strong & come hell or high water...we've made it work...kinda like the words from the Notebook ...fighting it out >>
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> *7* None of the above... please explain...
Click to expand...


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## MrsHolland

The meaning of marriage? What's the meaning of life? Both of those question have no right or wrong answers.

IMHO marriage should be a renewable contract, we set ourselves up for failure thinking it has to be for life and if not then we are failures. I have been divorced but do not consider my past marriage as a failure, it would only have been a failure if I did not learn the amazing and empowering life lessons it taught me.

To me, marriage can be in whatever incarnation you choose it to be as long as it is respectful. A couple that remain in an unhappy marriage till death, one that is full of disrespect (lying, cheating, abuse, neglect etc) are not in a successful marriage. 

How other people choose to define marriage is up to them, I am in a defacto relationship which is more precious, committed and compatible than my legal marriage was. We do plan on getting legally married in the future, I look forward to that day with happiness and excitement. 

In the end I think most people want to be loved, valued and respected, IMHO this can only be achieved with monogamy but it does not require a legal ceremony. In fact one of the more favoured relationship types where I live is two household monogamy. Many people, especially post divorce, choose to be in a committed relationship but not live together. 

We are not God botherers here so I see no place at all for God in marriage.


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## SimplyAmorous

jb02157 said:


> I can't even imagine my wife doing this. It might have saved our marriage.


It's a strange thing... seems to hit some of us in mid life (and strongly) then others.. it just doesn't seem to happen.. caring about our spouses *needs* would save millions of marriages !

It's why I landed on this forum... I was reading so many books on sex, hormones, Testosterone (worried about his), our libidos (this book was very helpful to me > Discover Your Libido Types to Create a Mutually Satisfying Sex Life , how to spice things up... 

I felt I had some knowledge I could offer on a forum like this... a lot better than gazing at porn sites while he was at work (it was a temptation!)..

It was a WILD time.. I remember thinking.. if I was a MAN acting like this.. no woman would have put up with me [email protected]# I became rather aggressive ....he'd joke I was raping him.. Yeah.. it was bad.. but it was Goood too!! and thank god for that little blue pill ! We'll be laughing about this someday in our rocking chairs... 

Because of this crazy experience (a blessing really)... I realized how much I hurt my husband back when I just didn't "get it".. I was always fulfilled/ satisfied.... he wanted more... he wasn't one to push or complain (he should have!) .... but still that didn't make it any easier... let's say.. he's a lot better at putting himself down over me... it's a "live & learn" here and a vow to never deny or take for granted the gift of intimacy we share..


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## sokillme

DosXXMan said:


> A marriage is not a contract. A marriage is a promise. A contract is a legal business document, enforceable by law, and that is made in exchange for something of economic value. A promise comes from the heart and does not involve economic compensation.
> 
> Unfortunately, marriage is a promise most people make when they are young and quite literally drunk in the neuro-chemicals of infatuation and love and lust (yes, there are actually a few books you can read on the amazing brain chemistry of love). Gullible love birds buying into the absurdly false expectations of the modern day marriage. Not understanding it is all a clever rouse setup by Mother Nature. It is designed to get worry free young people to take on the unthinkable responsibilities to have and raise children. One of nature's most incredible tricks! And most people fall for it (thank God, otherwise we wouldn't be here). And will continue to do so for a very long time.
> 
> But, like other promises we make, at some point many realize the marital promise was simply not realistic. Just like that promise to lose 20 lbs by the time of the HS reunion. Despite our best intentions things just can't happen for most. The reason being that -in some ways- these promises go against our very nature. Research has clearly shown the neuro-chemicals of love, infatuation, and lust do change quite dramatically over time. Not only that, but we change, our partners change, and the world changes. And we live much longer. Some people stick to the promise even when it turns into a cruel punishment. Some just quit. Others revisit the promise. And, as the smart animals we are, we will eventually redefine the norms and expectations of marriages so that we do not set ourselves up for failure from the very beginning.


If you married because of neuro-chemicals of infatuation, then you made a very unwise choice. By the way I don't accept that neuro-chemicals of infatuation describes love, it very much does describes lust. Unfortunately like many things in this age we live in, what was once described lust had been adapted and corrupted to mean love. Mostly I think because it is easy, and people are lazy. However again as with most things in our instant gratifications society these are transient things that people are not wise enough to understand don't realize won't last. I think that is because most people have been lied to. We are a very shallow society right now. There are so many things in our society that seem to work that way. Lust is like the fast food of emotional relationships, but people don't know that. They think it is Tavern on the Green, as with most of the celebrations of our baser instincts now a days. An example as it relates to music would be a hip hop song that uses a funky sample, but then you hear the original song and you are blown away how it almost away better (at least for me). Basic instincts are easy and don't require work. It's always about how it makes me feel. That is very much not what marriage is about or why you get into it. You should only marry to give, not to get. The problem is not the institution of marriage it's the people.

Love is not what you describe but good lust can turn into love. If you have never had it then you won't understand. Love is getting up at 4 in the morning every day to work for your family when you just want to go fishing. Love is washing your sick husband who is dying every day and thinking to yourself how am I going to live without this man in my life. It is very real and it is the most visible element of the supernatural in this world, it really makes no sense. There is the reason why many religions describe God as love. True love is noble. Also when you have such love, marriage really isn't as hard as you make it out to be. Maybe you have this outlook because you never been truly in love. 

Finally a marriage is not like a date, it's like a career. It involves every part of you and should be tackled like one does when they study to be a philosopher or one who trains to be an Olympic athlete. The great thing is you do it all with someone else. This gives it great meaning an purpose, it gives your life great meaning an purpose. It gives it a closeness and bond that you can't get with anyone else in your life. Again it is a profoundly magical and almost supernatural thing. No offense but I don't think a person who thinks of it like you do can understand that. To understand this you have to expand your mind, have a deeper level of thinking about life and interpersonal relationships than the paragraph you wrote.

When you both think of it that way who gives a sh!t if it doesn't make you all warm and fuzzy all the time.


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## SimplyAmorous

sokillme said:


> Love is getting up at 4 in the morning every day to work for your family when you just want to go fishing. Love is washing your sick husband who is dying every day and thinking to yourself how am I going to live without this man in my life. It is very really and it is the most visible element of the supernatural in this world, it really makes no sense. There is the reason why many religions describe God as love. True love is noble. Also when you have such love, marriage really isn't as hard as you make it out to be. Maybe you have this outlook because you never been truly in love.
> 
> Finally a marriage is not like a date, it's like a career. It involves every part of you and should be tackled like one does when they study to be a philosopher or one who trains to be an Olympic athlete. The great thing is you do it all with someone else. This gives it great meaning an purpose, it gives your life great meaning an purpose. It gives it a closeness and bond that you can't get with anyone else in your life. Again it is a profoundly magical and almost supernatural thing. No offense but I don't think a person who thinks of it like you do can understand that. To understand this you have to expand your mind, have a deeper level of thinking about life and interpersonal relationships than the paragraph you wrote.


 THIS ^^ Beautiful .....


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## sokillme

SimplyAmorous said:


> THIS ^^ Beautiful .....


It would be better if I was better a proof-reading. :scratchhead: 

That was supposed to read, very real.


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## sokillme

SimplyAmorous said:


> Sure there is the Unrealistic in Romance.... the characters are always model
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , one is always available, like they fell out of the sky, no baggage, a crazy ex that screwed them up a bit.....then the man is always loaded, he may own a castle or something... Personally...I'd like to see a few "Blue collar" romances now & then... ..Though once it gets under way.. the mounting feelings, whatever challenge they face ..leading up to falling in love, the emotional climax...I love it !


I always thought it would be fun to see a movie about the poor sap boyfriend who was dumped by the silly idealistic woman who runs off the loser who has no prospects but who she spilled coffee on during rush hour. The guy she runs into who just happens to look like Bradly Cooper, and is a house painter but really wants to be a painter, painter. It's her love is that one last missing piece that allows him to be a painter. Yeah not the Bradly Cooper guy. 

I want the movie about the poor sap who is the safe doctor who she has been dating for a year who she dumps for the exciting arty guy. 

This guy







- the secondary classically handsome but not overwhelmingly so, safe character actor. That guy always gets screwed in these movies. I want a movie from that guys point of view, kind of the anti-ephron move. It should have in it at some point the female lead begging to get back with him after finding out her hot exciting arty guy is really hooked on cocaine and secretly banging his nude models that he paints. Doesn't have a job since his one art show and his one sale, but refuses to go back to being a house painter because her love has showed him how HE NEEDS TO TRUE TO HIS ART! Now she supports him. Oh and he recently had coffee spilled on him by Keira Knightley. Ha ha. I want a movie from the James Marsden character in the notebook's point of view. 

Or better yet a sequel to the The Bridges of ******* County, where the husband comes home and finds out when they are like 60, and leaves her ass. Then she lives alone and writes to Clint Eastwood but he is busy with some girl 20 years younger. He brings her with him without telling her when he comes to see her. After he leaves her alone again the Clint Eastwood character is basically ripped off by this 20 year old's real bro boyfriend. Now Clint has PTSD and can't leave the house. Now THAT would be a good movie! 

Sometimes I am amazed how I can write a big long diatribe on marriage and still be so cynical. :moon:

By the way the ultimate shlub character is in this movie. WW2 widowed Janet Leigh leaves her lawyer boyfriend to go with her young son on a train across country to be with Robert Mitchum (whom she has known for about a week) to help him chase his dream of building boats. It's great. You can just imagine the 60 years of hell she is going to have being married to this soon to be sous chef and the 60 years of schadenfreude. I highly recommend it, it is everything I just railed against, all in one move from 1949. Even back then the loser good looking guy was being glamorized.

One more thing, Notebook is one of my top 10 movies. It's a Wonderful life is the best though. God is a Capra fan.


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## SimplyAmorous

sokillme said:


> It would be better if I was better a proof-reading. :scratchhead:
> 
> That was supposed to read, very real.


 The spirit of it touched me so much .. I got choked up... this part " Love is washing your sick husband who is dying every day and thinking to yourself how am I going to live without this man in my life. It is very real and it is the most visible element of the supernatural in this world "... 

Didn't even notice the error (I make 'em all the time)..

That's another thing about love.. when we love, even the flaws of our spouse, we're not crazy about them, might want to hit them over the head sometimes, but it's still them..we love them... if they were taken from us ...we'd give ANYTHING, just to be annoyed in those ways...one last time.. that's how it works..


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## sokillme

SimplyAmorous said:


> The spirit of it touched me so much .. I got choked up... this part " Love is washing your sick husband who is dying every day and thinking to yourself how am I going to live without this man in my life. It is very real and it is the most visible element of the supernatural in this world "...
> 
> Didn't even notice the error (I make 'em all the time)..
> 
> That's another thing about love.. when we love, even the flaws of our spouse, we're not crazy about them, might want to hit them over the head sometimes, but it's still them..we love them... if they were taken from us ...we'd give ANYTHING, just to be annoyed in those ways...one last time.. that's how it works..


Yep that is why I think it is supernatural, and why I believe God is love, precisely because it makes absolutely no sense. My wife is cranky and feisty and part of me really loves her for it. She can be as soft as a flower peddle and as stubborn as a rock, it's wonderful. Sounds like you and I have good marriages for the most part. It's easy to defend if you have one.


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## *Deidre*

I'm so happy to be getting married next year, and even though I love my fiance, and he loves me...I wonder if that will ever change. I'm sure it will deepen as time goes on, but in reading some threads on here about the difficulties that sometimes even the best marriages go through, I hope I can be a good wife to him. I want things to be as they are now: we love being together, the chemistry and sex is amazing, and we seem to be in sync with our views on life, and having children, etc. But, life will change as we know it and while I'm excited about it all, I just hope that we take our vows seriously. 

I happen to think that many people care more about the meaning of a wedding, than marriage.


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## Apexmale

Ynot said:


> What in the heck are you talking about? Where did I ever say any such thing. I swear some people just like to make things up. I guess projecting is easier than thinking critically.


Some people don't read to try and understand, they read just to respond. The lack of emotional discipline clouds objective thinking.


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## Ynot

Apexmale said:


> Some people don't read to try and understand, they read just to respond. The lack of emotional discipline clouds objective thinking.


Critical thinking tends to get bypassed once religion gets involved.


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## uhtred

To me the most unrealistic parts of romance are that incompatible characters who start out disliking each other end up in love: 

He is a Wall street securities trader, she is a kick-boxing champion who just got out of prison for aggravated assault. Yet somehow it all works out. (yes I know it *could* in real life but its not the way to bet). 

As far as someone believing in "romances", its one of the models I have for my wife's behavior. She likes young adult stories that generally have a strong romance component (which is fine). But her real life interest in romance seems to match that: she wants flowers, love notes, travel together etc. (all of which is great). She is flirty - but only to the limit of what you might find in a young-adult novel. She used to complain that I wasn't romantic - though she could never describe how. Maybe she was wishing I was a vampire or shadow-hunter....

Again, I think romances are great. Its just that they need to be viewed as a fantasy like spy novels or porn.





SimplyAmorous said:


> Sure there is the Unrealistic in Romance.... the characters are always model
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , one is always available, like they fell out of the sky, no baggage, a crazy ex that screwed them up a bit.....then the man is always loaded, he may own a castle or something... Personally...I'd like to see a few "Blue collar" romances now & then... ..Though once it gets under way.. the mounting feelings, whatever challenge they face ..leading up to falling in love, the emotional climax...I love it !
> 
> There's only a couple hrs.. I think leaving out the dishes or cleaning toilets is Ok in these movies.. ha ha..
> 
> Isn't it what we all long for, ultimately....even if they present MEN, some rugged as steel, being too mushy...(my husband is an expressive sentimental type -he's weird like that) so to me, it's not all that unrealistic..
> 
> It's really about the feelings these movies evoke in us...they are mountain top feel good... this is the problem... some can not watch romances, it hurts too much.. they may want to shoot the screen.. I can understand that..
> 
> I guess I look at it this way.. we sure have enough killings, true murder brought to life, glamorizing fictional Mistresses / Cheating -on reality Tv too!.... Lifetime movies- they have grown progressively SICKER over the years...to where I am covering my eyes silently screaming to not see the blade plunging into a body/ blood & gore is everywhere...... So yeah.. I'll take the unrealistic romances over some of that..
> 
> Always enjoyed the classics.. like  Wuthering Heights (so tragic!), Pride & Prejuduce...Watched Sid & Nancy  yrs ago.....now that was a dysfunctional drug addicted mess, but it goes to show no matter how f***ed up one is.. there is probably someone out there to share your obsession with you.. until death...it was still a love story.
> 
> I never did see  The Vow  (a true story).. pretty sure I will cry all the way through that one..
> 
> We've never had fights, even a spat over picking up or who does what in the house.. that's my role... dirty socks.. toilet rings.. it's all good....
> 
> Yes we all get moody, have bad days, stress at work, kids driving us mad... many times just seeing him walk through the door...it's calming... we share our day.. we make each other feel better.. truth is... I've caused more fights (stupid fights) over wanting more sex..worrying he's loosing his sex drive....I had this crazy hormonal surge in mid life... was loving it but also.. it was tormenting at times.. I could hardly concentrate.. I felt like a young man in puberty... how many men could keep up with 3 times a day -my husband couldn't... . .. Even at that, these were some of the best times too...He could think of far worse things for me to be grouchy about.. that I couldn't get enough of his body! ...He'd joke about it..... finally I got it through my thick skull that his desire is fine, he's Ok.. it was me out of whack...
> 
> Then turn that upside down & go back 19 yrs.. he was the higher drive.. and I was oblivious.. he was passive.. and well.. we missed each other more than we should have.. We all have some regrets, right... so long as it's not with who we are with...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have any of you met someone who's living in a bonafide "fantasy world" due to -too many romantic movies, books? ... how does such a woman act ?? It's a serious question..
> 
> We caught a movie on this once... I forget the name.. but this young woman literally entertained all this BLISS inside her head against the obvious of how the man (who was married ) was treating her...oh it was tender at 1st ...but basically HE WAS USING HER for sex.. she was pathetically deluded..it was sad... wouldn't believe him when he wanted rid of her even...she was still entertaining them getting married, living happily ever after... it was a fictional movie.. but as deluded as she was.. I never met anyone that nuts -or they would have mental issues..


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## Apexmale

Ynot said:


> Critical thinking tends to get bypassed once religion gets involved.


Yes. Religion too comes from the same source as fantasy. They are from men who committed stories to paper, then to books (27 of them in the New Testament)


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## Ynot

Apexmale said:


> Yes. Religion too comes from the same source as fantasy. They are from men who committed stories to paper, then to books (27 of them in the New Testament)


I have never understood why people choose to attempt to live a fantasy when real life is so much more interesting.


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## TX-SC

What a philosophical bunch we have here! The definition of marriage is always cultural. To say that marriage was always this or that is just simply wrong. You just can't say that marriage up until 100 years ago was never about love, but about other things. That is just so far off base. Plus, you do realize there are literally thousands of cultures around the world, most of which have marriage. Many of them are traditional in their own way but do not match our own traditions. 

Globalization and the ability to interact in so many ways with so many people has led to the evolution of marriage as an institution. Though, there are many who still view it as a lifetime commitment to one person. I personally see it that way. Will my children? Probably, since their parents are still married and never divorced. But there is no guarantee.


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## Married but Happy

Ynot said:


> I have never understood why people choose to attempt to live a fantasy when real life is so much more interesting.


Books and movies about vampires and zombies are similarly popular. Real life _can be _much more interesting, but for many people it is clearly not.


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## Ynot

TX-SC said:


> What a philosophical bunch we have here! The definition of marriage is always cultural. To say that marriage was always this or that is just simply wrong. You just can't say that marriage up until 100 years ago was never about love, but about other things. That is just so far off base. Plus, you do realize there are literally thousands of cultures around the world, most of which have marriage. Many of them are traditional in their own way but do not match our own traditions.
> 
> Globalization and the ability to interact in so many ways with so many people has led to the evolution of marriage as an institution. Though, there are many who still view it as a lifetime commitment to one person. I personally see it that way. Will my children? Probably, since their parents are still married and never divorced. But there is no guarantee.


Here is the way Eskimos and Aluets consider marriage:

http://www.uaf.edu/files/apua/Rubel1961.pdf

Interesting read, I doubt many in the US would consider that "traditional" though.


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## Apexmale

Ynot said:


> Here is the way Eskimos and Aluets consider marriage:
> 
> http://www.uaf.edu/files/apua/Rubel1961.pdf
> 
> Interesting read, I doubt many in the US would consider that "traditional" though.


It isn't bad, it's just different. But I'm sure we'll see someone here start attacking eskimos because of thier "lifestyle".


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## *Deidre*

Marriage should be about love, IMO - it's not just a business arrangement, sex is involved. I wouldn't want to be in a loveless marriage that was just based on an ''arrangement'' or out of convenience. Marriage actually started as a pagan ritual, mainly to give children stability. Maybe people ''grew'' to love one another centuries ago, and the initial arrangement didn't need to have love.


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## Ynot

Apexmale said:


> It isn't bad, it's just different. But I'm sure we'll see someone here start attacking eskimos because of thier "lifestyle".


I know, I was just responding to this:
"The definition of marriage is always cultural. To say that marriage was always this or that is just simply wrong. You just can't say that marriage up until 100 years ago was never about love, but about other things. That is just so far off base. Plus, you do realize there are literally thousands of cultures around the world, most of which have marriage. Many of them are traditional in their own way but do not match our own traditions. "

Something that is very different about it vs our culture is that no where is there any indication of what the wife wants. Is it because that is what the wife wants or is it because the wife has no say in the matter?


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## lisa.tubbs

sokillme said:


> I don't get your point really. Why does it matter if you call it traditional or not. The bottom line is as you state the *modern version of a marriage, one based on love, equality, shared responsibilities, monogamy, and life-long commitment*, this is what most people expect out of marriage in our world today. There can be no doubt that this is the commitment most people expect from themselves and their spouses when they say I do. Whether or not it is a new concept does really matter or absolve anyone from their responsibilities. This is the societal norm for the last 100 years or so.
> 
> If this is too much to expect then don't enter into a marriage. It's really that simple, no one is forcing anyone to get married, or be monogamous. If you enter into a marriage keep your commitments. That is basically the bottom line.
> 
> Sorry but post like this just sounds like a pseudo intellectual way to justify cheating to me. Maybe this isn't you but I always find arguments like this to come from people who don't really like the fact that 75% of the population still want to have a monogamous relationship and marriage. Despite whether they keep there commitments or not, for most this is the ideal that they strive for. Even cheaters want their spouses to be monogamous they just want to be able to cheat and be vampires. Anyway I think arguments like this (modern marriage is too damn hard) are really because it sucks for people who want open marriages that they only have about 25% of the gene pool to choose from. I get it you want more hot people on your team.
> 
> I give you credit, at least you are not pretending to be monogamous. I actually see the concept of open marriage as a very good thing for society, I really hope this will bring some of the people who would normally cheat out of the shadows I hope they accept what they are and marry each other. However I don't think there will be more then 25% of the world interested in it. The rest will still want a modern marriage as you described it and about half of them will be vampires.
> 
> Maybe we will all have chips in are brains one day that will tell us whether or not we can be trusted. Or maybe VR porn and sex bots will be so real a good portion of people won't even marry.
> 
> Oh one more thing, if you took the vows it's WRONG to cheat.


I agree with you. I liked both of their points, however your RIGHT! I just got married this year and to be honest it hasn't been easy. Men and Women are completely different. Marriage is harder than raising a son alone.
It takes effort, patience, understanding, reasoning and Love to make it work. 

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