# Arousal difficulties and the solution?



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

After reading Esther Perel as well one of her suggested books by Winks and Semans, both seemed to try their best to suggest we always keep building more knowledge towards self-sexual discovery. They claim this is one of the key ingredients what it takes to keep eroticism alive in a relationship. 

If you know what turns you on, think again because it is suggested that this tends to change over time. Much like ones appetite for food can evolve as new flavors can be encountered that are sometimes an acquired taste. Imagine life without coffee for example. Many people forget that coffee is an acquired taste and at some point you had to work on drinking it in order to start liking it. Bland coffee becomes boring and new things are done to it to make it more exciting like concentrating it into espresso or making a cappuccino. 

Perel, Winks, and Semans all tend to describe one knowledge of arousal and eroticism to be like a garden that needs to be tended to over time. If you neglect it, things will die and there will be no fruits. Thorny weeds will grow and take over. Wanting to become aroused becomes too challenging when this proverbial garden gets neglected and overgrown. However if you nurture your self-sexual garden, you'll you can even develop skills to grow new things. New fruits can be discovered and ripened. Arousal is easy and one stays very well in touch with their fantasies in a way that can be easily expressed with intimacy in marriage. 

Here is the controversial thing! How exactly does one go about tending to and nurturing their self-sexual gardens of eroticism and arousal? Perel suggests using masturbation and nonmonogamy (or at least the idea of it) while Winks and Semans recommend masturbating to porn (specifically for women to do this). BOTH are things often found to be offensive and/or controversial here on TAM. 

What would be the noncontroversial or healthy ways to go about this? One that an LD spouse could easily embrace? Are there even any since eroticism is all about risk, sexual tension fueled by anxiety, and pushing one's boundaries? Does this area of self discovery have to be something that makes you uncomfortable in some way or another? Or is it simply about doing the work and not being lazy about it (expecting a partner to tend the garden for you)?

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Maybe I've missed it somewhere, but it doesn't seem like the lower desire partner embraces anything easily - except avoidance.

I just wanted to say how incredibly awesome it is to me that you care and that you read all these books.

During my separation, I asked my then-husband if he would work through a book (I had already read, and really liked) with me - _Getting the Love you Want_, by Harville Hendrix. He said he would, and he took the book from me, and it was never mentioned again. Which pretty much sums up our entire relationship.

So, I'm in awe of your effort - and really all of you who are still married and work on making things better. 🙂



badsanta said:


> What would be the noncontroversial or healthy ways to go about this? *One that an LD spouse could easily embrace? *Are there even any since eroticism is all about risk, sexual tension fueled by anxiety, and pushing one's boundaries? Does this area of self discovery have to be something that makes you uncomfortable in some way or another? Or is it simply about doing the work and not being lazy about it (expecting a partner to tend the garden for you)?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

@badsanta good and thought provoking post. I'm interested in seeing responses. 

In my opinion you couched things in a good way to encourage thoughts and ideas.

The part about what could an LD spouse easily do is a good point.

What could, to include what actually WOULD an LD spouse do, what efforts at all would an LD make, and the definition of the "easily" modifier attached is interesting. 

You know; Could, Should, Would are different things.

No comments yet but I'm interested.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

a couple comments....wondering is you could replace the word "arousal" with desire. I tend to think of arousal as the physical body reaction to being turned on (getting hard, getting wet, etc), versus desire=the mental aspects. 

Another thing that low desire partners often dont care if they foster this...its not an important topic, so they dont want to "fix" anything or think f putting in more effort. The HD partners seem to rarely have an issue with keeping their personal eroticism alive. Its a catch 22

As I have said before, I read the Perel book and think its great, but my wife stopped after a couple chapters. The topic was not interesting to her.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Married_in_michigan said:


> The topic was not interesting to her.


That captures it succinctly. Sort of the same feeling I would get if forced to read a gardening book.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

See what I mean??

Coulda, shoulda, woulda came out real quick.

For some folks, not focusing on any group, it's about the minimum they'd have to do.

And that right there is the problem. If a person starts from there the big thing is why are you starting at what's the absolute minimum...hmmmm. ?

Generically speaking.


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## Donny69 (Sep 12, 2020)

I think the HDer naturally will weed, cultivate and care for the garden perhaps through reading, their imagination, and motivation. I think porn and masturbation just spoils it.
I do think there has to be a bit of a constant chase as the HDer is seducing, pursuing, but then never quite “having“ as much as they’d like. if people are normal, busy people I think it almost impossible to fit in so much sex that an HDer will be satisfied, my experience. I think an HDer will always push the envelope. 

Perhaps the wealthy or childless can get oversexed and bored... not my experience.

My tastes change but only mildly and usually the result of some fantastic experience with my wife that I want to then duplicate. Having a great experience once is never enough... it lingers on in your mind for the rest of your days.

Kind of sad if that experience for someone is only from porn..


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

What does this mean? Specifically?

From what I've read, you have a willing wife, yes? Your relationship is satisfying? Your family life is good?

Do you know what it feels like to go year after year trying to pull something out of someone that they have no intention of giving you?

Do you have first hand experience of a marriage with that level of passive aggressiveness - on a daily basis, for decades?

Unless you've being turned down, dismissed, and/or ignored on a regular basis, then you really have no clue what you're talking about.

All nagging does (and this would be your version of 'doing more') is turn up the frustration. And it lets the other person off the hook for taking any amount of responsiblity.

If I'm wrong, and you have dealt this with successfully, please do enlighten me. I would genuinely be interested in reading your solutions.



Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> See what I mean??
> 
> Coulda, shoulda, woulda came out real quick.
> 
> ...


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Interesting post.

I think others have captured the same sentiment but a LD person such as my wife doesn't really even identify as LD. To her the once a week or every ten days is normal and she isn't going to read, watch or try anything to correct or improve what she perceives as fine and not broken. To her, people like me are just "sex-crazed" and "too horny" for wanting more than what she feels is normal. She enjoys sex when we have it and will readily admit how exciting and fun it was right afterwards but then she is good for almost another two weeks. If I try to initiate the next day or so, she will comment "We just did it two days ago!" like there is some limit or something. 

Not bashing her or anything as I have just learned to live with it but she (and I might go so far to say "many") LD folks are not even interested in changing.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Not bashing her or anything as I have just learned to live with it but she (and I might go so far to say "many") LD folks are not even interested in changing.


Interestingly enough I think same can be said for HD. They aren't interested in changing either. LOL.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

minimalME said:


> All nagging does *(and this would be your version of 'doing more')* is turn up the frustration. And it lets the other person off the hook for taking any amount of responsiblity.
> 
> If I'm wrong, and you have dealt this with successfully, please do enlighten me. I would genuinely be interested in reading your solutions.


*My* saying nagging would help? Where do you see that old friend?

I didn't start this thread or say anything thing about nagging. I'm not getting you here.

Are you sure you meant to send this to me?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Yes. That's what bringing up an issue over and over again is - nagging.

You want to judge people for what you see as doing the absolute minimum?

What are your successful solutions for making these issues better after the inital attempt has been made and dismissed?



Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> See what I mean??
> 
> Coulda, shoulda, woulda came out real quick.
> 
> ...





Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> *My* saying nagging would help? Where do you see that old friend?
> 
> I didn't start this thread or say anything thing about nagging. I'm not getting you here.
> 
> Are you sure you meant to send this to me?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Interesting post.
> 
> I think others have captured the same sentiment but a LD person such as my wife doesn't really even identify as LD. To her the once a week or every ten days is normal and she isn't going to read, watch or try anything to correct or improve what she perceives as fine and not broken. To her, people like me are just "sex-crazed" and "too horny" for wanting more than what she feels is normal. She enjoys sex when we have it and will readily admit how exciting and fun it was right afterwards but then she is good for almost another two weeks. If I try to initiate the next day or so, she will comment "We just did it two days ago!" like there is some limit or something.
> 
> Not bashing her or anything as I have just learned to live with it but she (*and I might go so far to say "many") LD folks are not even interested in changing.*


Aptly said, that's commonly the starting point. A person gaining the actual interest to try, or start to try from their common level of lower interest. 

That's the problem to solve. 

Like @badsanta starts, what are some good things to try, is a great list to assemble, to start as interest increases, or to start the increase.

May be chicken and the egg thing, in fact by nature is likely to be.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> Interestingly enough I think same can be said for HD. They aren't interested in changing either. LOL.


Thats pretty good Anastasia! 

But I wonder if our changing isn't just the acceptance itself? I know you were joking but it got me thinking and yeah I would say my change is just I don't try to initiate or start anything as frequently anymore. Instead I come on here and talk about it! LOL


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

minimalME said:


> Yes. That's what bringing up an issue over and over again is - nagging.
> 
> You want to judge people for what you see as doing the absolute minimum?
> 
> What are your successful solutions for making these issues better after the inital attempt has been made and dismissed?


First, DH, is where do you see me judging in this thread? Point it out. 

Second, SH, my solution is that if non-medical problems caused sexual component of a ltr is a constant and worsening problem and it outshadows all the other good M components, it's time to split. 

Well FH here is my opinion:
One has to make the choice; accept a circumstance and stop complaining or don't accept it and move on.

It's not always cut and dried, there usually are mitigating circumstances and middle ground but one has to emotionally find their level of acceptance if staying. And that will vary couple to couple person to person.

Yes, I have a very good sexual relationship, rarely ever put off, I'm put first, our being a couple is put first rather than mom, Grandmother, father, grandfather etc and we've had 35 plus years to get this good at it.

Do you think all 35yrs have been honey and roses? If you think that's the case in any ltr you're living in a dreamworld.

So, FO, unless you have something more interesting or thread applicable. 

SFBs.

Christ almighty.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> Interestingly enough I think same can be said for HD. They aren't interested in changing either. LOL.


In general, which do you think is the bigger ask: 

To frequently go without something you love - or -
To frequently give something about which you are ambivalent?

Is the problem perfectly symmetrical?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Cletus said:


> In general, which do you think is the bigger ask:
> 
> To frequently go without something you love - or -
> To frequently give something about which you are ambivalent?
> ...


Well framed!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> ...wondering is you could replace the word "arousal" with desire. I tend to think of arousal as the physical body reaction to being turned on (getting hard, getting wet, etc), versus desire=the mental aspects.


I am being specific about arousal here. As in knowing exactly what it takes to get yourself turned on. Even people with mental desire can lack that ability to get physically aroused sometimes and it is known as non-concordance:









Arousal non-concordance - Uncovering Intimacy


I heard a new term this week and I’m really excited about it, because it’s a concept I’ve known about for a long time, but I’ve not seen many people write about it. I also didn’t know what to call it. I like having labels,




www.uncoveringintimacy.com





A good example is someone that has been historically HD that suddenly looses their libido. They know exactly what they are missing and they want it back, and sometimes are willing to take any medications necessary to make that happen. So the desire for sex is there but the ability to get aroused may vanish or suddenly diminish. In these cases it is sometimes a health factor that is driving the problem, or it very well could be a problem in the proverbial garden of self sexuality. 

...as in I know sex is fun and I want to have more, but nothing seems arousing or gets me going right now!

Perel, Winks, and Semans all seem to suggest that there IS something that will get you going when this happens, but you let yourself get out of touch with it.

I have actually experienced this myself from time to time. It is the idea of wanting sex to be really great, but in the moment everything seems rather meh. I can go through the motions and get it done, but that something something that made it awesome was missing. Then while digging deep into reading (including explicit materials), I'll come across something that hits me like a freight train and BAM there it is again. Using coffee as an example again, it might the a specific flavor to add like pumpkin spice (a known aphrodisiac by the way). So in that sense I totally get what Perel, Winks, and Seman are talking about as I have experienced this myself. Awkwardly I do find myself tending to my garden by reading rather explicit materials just like the authors suggested and then transferring those ideas to enjoy fantasizing about something a little different with my wife. 

When I share these ideas with my wife or talk about what I was reading, that happens rather naturally between my wife and I. Sometimes she likes an idea and is open to exploring it. However she always jokes about how different we are and that no way would she ever enjoy reading the things that I read. I am now thinking that is her way of admitting that she feels uncomfortable working alone in her garden. She will work on her garden with me while I do the heavy lifting so to speak (at least we have that), but she never seems open, willing or able to enjoy that on her own by reading or daydreaming about explicit things. 

From my perspective it does take work. You have to put in the effort. But once you do that and discover rewarding knowledge about yourself, it makes the effort enjoyable. Then I have to carry a giant basket of fruits over to my wife and toss them into her proverbial overgrown garden and say, "there is something that looks appetizing!" Sometimes she knows there are many passion fruits that I tossed to her, but perhaps now too covered in thorns and weeds to make it worth while. So she tells me to just be selfish and enjoy myself because she can't get there and enjoy the passion fruits with me even though she claims to want to and knows what she is missing. 

Badsanta


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Cletus said:


> In general, which do you think is the bigger ask:
> 
> To frequently go without something you love - or -
> To frequently give something about which you are ambivalent?
> ...


Who says they are ambivalent? 

The problem to me seems the same and any need not being met. For HD people or most people who visit TAM sex is the end all be all of marriage but there are plenty of people that want to be connected, important, treated with respect, listened to, taken care of, and all kinds of other things that are also aspects of relationships and marriage. Frequently needs are not being met on both sides. I know that this crowd doesn't really want to rehash the so many reasons many LD or women don't engage enthusiastically with their spouse. So I'll bow out. This isn't a problem in my house. Though I frequently want sex more than my hubby. I get enough. He gets enough. So maybe I have nothing to contribute.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Here is the controversial thing! How exactly does one go about tending to and nurturing their self-sexual gardens of eroticism and arousal? Perel suggests using masturbation and nonmonogamy (or at least the idea of it) while Winks and Semans recommend masturbating to porn (specifically for women to do this). BOTH are things often found to be offensive and/or controversial here on TAM.


These things (masturbation, pornography, nonmonogamy) actually work (used responsibly), but many people are conditioned by society to find them offensive or immoral. We tend to deny how these things can help our sex lives, and we can easily become sexually frustrated, which often leads to cheating. While society has come a long way, sex is often a taboo subject and sexual activity is often stigmatized.

Even for highly sexual compatible partners where there is no HD/LD tension, long term sex with the same partner usually becomes routine and less exciting, even if its generally satisfying.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

That's a good recap of challenges involved. 

The freedom and comfort between couple to try and fail along the road to trying and succeeding is key.

Not the only key and there are other as equal parts in an ltr, that will vary between couples, so as to not generalize.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> These things (masturbation, pornography, nonmonogamy) actually work (used responsibly), but many people are conditioned by society to find them offensive or immoral.


The whole time reading Perel's book, I couldn't help but to think that she was advocating for everyone to give role play a try. It is a pretend form of nonmonogamy. Schnarch would argue that some folks are incompatible with that. I however wonder if he was wrong and it is more about overcoming one's moral inhibitions and become open to that. 

A common role play scenario that is discussed in some books is that one person plays the role of a high priced prostitute, but this is used to point out how some people enjoy this while others get extremely offended. I recently joked about that idea with my wife and that I should play the role of a high priced sex worker. She joked and said that she would play the role of an IRS agent investigating me for receiving a fraudulent PPP loan while being shut down because I would never have had any real evidence of past clients willing to pay. She told me that fantasy would involve her putting me to work doing chores around the house to payback all the money I was pretending to earn. 

So you can see in my case that role play is a bit of a challenge!


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I am being specific about arousal here. As in knowing exactly what it takes to get yourself turned on. Even people with mental desire can lack that ability to get physically aroused sometimes and it is known as non-concordance:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ok. I get where you are coming from and your points. I find an interesting parallel in the area of desire, and also "tending to that garden". My wife (as example), can get easily aroused by both things that have always been arousing to her and new things, but her general desire is much lower than mine is, and she very infrequently focuses her thoughts on things that arouse her. I feel that in a similar way, if that was tended to more often, it may open her to more sexual fulfillment, but she does not consider it a gap, so little interest in wanting it to be more frequent of a thought process.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> ok. I get where you are coming from and your points. I find an interesting parallel in the area of desire, and also "tending to that garden". My wife (as example), can get easily aroused by both things that have always been arousing to her and new things, but her general desire is much lower than mine is, and she very infrequently focuses her thoughts on things that arouse her. I feel that in a similar way, if that was tended to more often, it may open her to more sexual fulfillment, but she does not consider it a gap, so little interest in wanting it to be more frequent of a thought process.


I have been thinking in about my initial post in this thread. Using the "garden" as a metaphor and asking myself how is it that you can inspire a spouse to work in their garden. 

...so take a few steps back and we examine our own garden and our past history of sharing with our spouse. Ask yourself a few questions:

has it been shared in a humble way
has it been shared in a patient way
has it been shared in a way that facilitates learning
has it been shared in a way that is rewarding
has it been shared in a way that humiliates 
has it been shared in a way that is demanding
has it been shared in a way that could frustrate
so on and so on...

Much like buying a gift for someone and insisting that they have to enjoy it, you can imagine that can easily go wrong in so many ways. That is probably how sharing gifts from our self-sexual gardens can come across with a spouse that has become a reluctant gardener. 

So my thoughts recently were that of just starting over in the garden and working on my own garden as if it were her garden that needs to relearn the joy of growing things simple and humble but yet rewarding and useful. No more prize pumpkins or square watermelons and back to just simple vegetables and fruits. For sure I am creative enough to be able to enjoy cooking with the basics in a way that will inspire my wife to resume work on her garden. 

We all know the basics of lovemaking, so I am not going to share those details here. I just say I kept things simple and natural along with applying an ample amount of my own desire that my wife could not resist enjoying for herself. 

Perhaps when a spouse complains that things need to be spontaneous and natural, they are complaining that they just don't know what to do with a square watermelon because such fruits seem too as if they require too much effort to create that one can get anxiety about having to enjoying it more than just a simple one.









Square watermelon - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Badsanta


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

who reads books nowadays?
it is not the preferred medium. and they are too long, our brains have been conditioned to a 30 second attention span!

Short porn videos.
Erotic pictures and memes.
Longer videos dotted with super hot sex scenes to keep one interested.
Methods that trick the senses, such as starting off as a simple massage, and building to something completely sexual.

these are the current media to use. If you want to get an LD partner to respond...you have to send some of that stuff their way


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Talker67 said:


> Short porn videos.
> Erotic pictures and memes.
> Longer videos dotted with super hot sex scenes to keep one interested.
> Methods that trick the senses, such as starting off as a simple massage, and building to something completely sexual.
> ...


Most LD spouses have an aversion to explicit materials, but your post actually gave me a thought. Take your idea and reverse engineer it! 

What if I tell my wife that I am struggling to not watch porn and request her to help me find erotic content that she finds non-offensive or perhaps even healthy? The purpose of this would not exactly be to use the erotic content for my own self exploration but more of a call to action to get her searching for content herself. Then based on what she finds and recommends will also serve to provide me with more insight into her own thoughts and fantasies. 

So the HD should not send that stuff to the LD, but perhaps the HD request help from the LD to find something that is both erotic and non-aversive. 

That might actually work!


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Most LD spouses have an aversion to explicit materials, but your post actually gave me a thought. Take your idea and reverse engineer it!
> 
> What if I tell my wife that I am struggling to not watch porn and request her to help me find erotic content that she finds non-offensive or perhaps even healthy? The purpose of this would not exactly be to use the erotic content for my own self exploration but more of a call to action to get her searching for content herself. Then based on what she finds and recommends will also serve to provide me with more insight into her own thoughts and fantasies.
> 
> ...


I actually did this with some success, but admittedly was more by accident than with forethought. I made mention to my wife my "erotic tank" was a bit low and was thinking about a "steamy movie night", then before i started work that day, mentioned maybe she could look up some movie options.....which she did. Her choice was not as erotic as maybe I would have picked, but it was within her comfort zone and was enjoyed by both of us.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I actually did this with some success, but admittedly was more by accident than with forethought. I made mention to my wife my "erotic tank" was a bit low and was thinking about a "steamy movie night", then before i started work that day, mentioned maybe she could look up some movie options.....which she did. *Her choice was not as erotic as maybe I would have picked, but it was within her comfort zone and was enjoyed by both of us.*


THAT!

I had a similar experience a long time ago. It stemmed from an argument over masturbation. At the time my wife was firmly against it (being raised Catholic) while I insisted that not only it was a healthy thing to do, but that most professional therapists would recommend it for those struggling with arousal. 

On her own initiative she researched it and happened to leave the iPad browser opened to where she left off on her research. I picked it up by coincidence and noticed her browsing history and gained a tremendous amount of insight from the way she was searching. She started by searching for viewpoints for both pro and con masturbation. Most of the professional sights were pro masturbation which then caused her to research it further from that perspective. I could tell she was trying to convince herself that perhaps it was not that bad of a thing. 

Afterwards we had a good discussion on the topic and I pointed at that the topic of masturbation was not what was really offending her. That she was probably offended by what erotic media I was viewing. At the time it was mostly lingerie/boudoir images and I shared the fact that I often enjoyed to imagine if she would be willing to wear similar lingerie. Surprisingly she was kind of OK with that and she started asking what types of lingerie that I liked. We tried ordering a few things, but at the end of the day she felt too self conscious. 

While we did not get to the point of her picking out erotic media that it was OK for me to consume, we did have a lengthy discussion about what she finds offensive and why. When I asked her for examples of media that she finds erotic, she did give me a few examples of some "R" rated movies. 

Stupid me never bothered to watch those with her!


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## SamHam01! (Jul 31, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> Interestingly enough I think same can be said for HD. They aren't interested in changing either. LOL.


That’s not how it plays out though- the LD partner has the control. The HD must change or accept their LD partner, the same is intrinsically the case in reverse.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

SamHam01! said:


> That’s not how it plays out though- the LD partner has the control. The HD must change or accept their LD partner, the same is intrinsically the case in reverse.


I actually read a book about the notion of the LD being in control, and this is not the case from the other perspective. From the LD's point of view the HD is in control of everything in terms of demanding a a higher frequency, different styles, positions, novelties, and so on so on. 

My point being is that both the HD and LD often feel as if being controlled by the other.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

SamHam01! said:


> That’s not how it plays out though- the LD partner has the control. The HD must change or accept their LD partner, the same is intrinsically the case in reverse.


There are many LD that do not feel they have that control. They feel they must try to meet the needs of the HD, sometimes they are frequently even told if they don't there will be divorce. So then you end up in the middle and neither is often happy about that.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Most LD spouses have an aversion to explicit materials, but your post actually gave me a thought. Take your idea and reverse engineer it!
> 
> What if I tell my wife that I am struggling to not watch porn and request her to help me find erotic content that she finds non-offensive or perhaps even healthy? The purpose of this would not exactly be to use the erotic content for my own self exploration but more of a call to action to get her searching for content herself. Then based on what she finds and recommends will also serve to provide me with more insight into her own thoughts and fantasies.
> 
> ...


i like your creativity.

my comment was based on my bservation that someone who is LD, CAN be for a short time "tricked" into getting aroused. it involves soft music, candles burning, scented oils...slow massage over the entire body AVOIDING any sexual touching (except for the occasional "accidental" caress.) then their horniness builds, and they are almost begging you for an orgasm.

sadly, 2 hours later it is like it never happened. forgotten.

but you can do it all over again some day in the future.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> What would be the noncontroversial or healthy ways to go about this?


My wife applied a successful and very practical solution. To resolving her experience of having a low sexual drive, in a previous sexual relationship.

It was effective in that it saw her experience high sexual desire.

While the solution also delivered, her first experience of having orgasms while sharing sex with someone. Through a range of different approaches, including being digitally rubbed and or penetrated, receiving oral sex or penis in vagina sex.

Of which the solution she applied was to ask another man on a date. Followed by spending the night with that man on her second date. To then have sex with that other man on their third date. Which she followed with, dumping the man who she felt low sexual desire with.

Which solved all of her arousal problems.

For some at least, finding better sexual partners can be a tremendous solution for such problems.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Talker67 said:


> i like your creativity.
> 
> my comment was based on my bservation that someone who is LD, CAN be for a short time "tricked" into getting aroused. it involves soft music, candles burning, scented oils...slow massage over the entire body AVOIDING any sexual touching (except for the occasional "accidental" caress.) then their horniness builds, and they are almost begging you for an orgasm.
> 
> ...


I think this over time becomes more and more problematic. In "Come as You Are" by Emily Nagoski she describes sexuality as a dual system. One system inhibits like pressing the brakes while a separate system accelerates like pressing the gas. She describes women as being very likely to express their sexuality as if someone driving around with one foot on the brakes and another on the gas. Ideally someone like this needs to learn how to take their foot off the brakes when the moment arrises for intimacy and just press the gas. Not an easy thing to do and in my opinion this leads to bad habits to where and LD uses acceleration from the HD to overpower the proverbial brakes. 

So you can do it again, but each time it may require more and more effort as the LD may actually enjoy keeping the "brakes" pressed to see if you can overtake them. I guess in a car that would be like drifting. 

This brings up a good point to this thread. Perhaps Perel's and Winks/Seman's advice to consider ideas about non-monogamy and enjoying porn could actually be more about allowing yourself to let go of inhibitions. Or learning how to take your foot off the brakes.

Shifting gears a bit (since we have left the garden and now using the metaphor of a car), I found myself thinking that eroticism is much like a battery. You have to keep it charged. Then come time to crank the engine you either have a dead battery that needs to be jumped or one that can crank even the most stubborn engine. Imagine having two cars. One that has a bad battery and always has to be jump started and the other that keeps getting a new battery that stays well charged. Sexual eroticism is very much like a form of energy in that you can build it up and drain it. If you drain it too low, odds are you damage your battery and it is time to invest in doing some maintenance.

The point of this thread is about what exactly is needed for the LD spouse to learn how to charge their own batteries. 

Ironically everything in my house that has a battery, I am the one that has to recharge it. I plug my wife's phone in at night to recharge. I get her Kindle from next to the couch about once a week and recharge it. I often find her laptop on her desk at 10% and plug it in for her. I am the one that places all the cordless phones back in the base to charge. I am even the one that regularly checks the car batteries and puts them seem a little low. So if anything that gets turned on in my house, it is because I am the one taking care of the batteries.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> For some at least, finding better sexual partners can be a tremendous solution for such problems.


Well Perel suggests exactly this, but within the context of sustaining an existing relationship. So if sexual intimacy in your relationship declined, would you encourage her to go out on dates with other men/women or at least entertain a fantasy of the idea? "Shadow of a Third" is what Perel calls it.

Most people would not be comfortable with that.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> So if sexual intimacy in your relationship declined, would you encourage her to go out on dates with other men/women or at least entertain a fantasy of the idea?


If my sexual relationship with my wife ever devolves to the point, where she never ever has any orgasms. While I insist she is wrong and is having orgasms, to the point that to avoid arguments she starts faking them. As happened with the man she was with, before she asked me out on our first date. I don't think I would need to tell her to date others, since I am pretty sure she would sensibly dump me, for being an appallingly inadequate sexual partner.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Well Perel suggests exactly this, but within the context of sustaining an existing relationship. So if sexual intimacy in your relationship declined, would you encourage her to go out on dates with other men/women or at least entertain a fantasy of the idea? "Shadow of a Third" is what Perel calls it.
> 
> Most people would not be comfortable with that.


a dangerous option, but one i am sure many HD partners are driven to.

If you are married, and do find a horny partner outside of the marriage....they might want to break up your marriage and have you all to yourself. You very likely will be found out and end up getting divorced. 

And just what sort of person would you find outside of your marriage? One willing to cheat with a married person. Means they will likely cheat on you too.

It is not easy to stay monogamous and TRY to work out the sexless marriage thing, but thinking of the alternative...it is certainly worth MANY tries to get it to work.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Talker67 said:


> a dangerous option, but one i am sure many HD partners are driven to.
> 
> If you are married, and do find a horny partner outside of the marriage....they might want to break up your marriage and have you all to yourself. You very likely will be found out and end up getting divorced.
> 
> ...


One safe way to explore this topic suggested by Perel would be through role play. Perhaps one person pretends to be a movie star and the other a love interest played by another character. One example Perel used was that of a wife that put on a wig and met her husband at work for a hot lunch date, to enjoy the fantasy of his coworkers thinking he may be having an affair. 

Another safe example the authors cite is to use erotic media and enjoy stories and/or video of other people that you will never meet in real life. But find a way that this can be explored as a couple without shame or jealousy. 

While I am not sure if this was mentioned in the book, there is often the idea and memories we all keep of our past lovers. It is common to revisit those memories as a source of erotic energy. This one however tends to be a little more controversial as it is common for spouses to want a partner to emotionally let go and move on from all previous lovers as a way to demonstrate loyalty and fidelity. That type of behavior that makes relationships more secure however is exactly what Perel points towards as an effort that destroys one's erotic desires and fantasies. 

I personally don't think I could get into role play as I see it as something to cheesy and implausible. But there is a form of mild role play that partner-based spouses can do that is very effective in my opinion. That is reverse role playing each other's sexual faults while challenging the other to deal with it intimately. Call it an exercise of dealing with yourself. So if I pretend to my wife that I am her having trouble getting aroused and challenge her to deal with it effectively, I get a chance to see exactly what she would want me to do with her when that happens. I did that once and the results were indeed fascinating. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Talker67 said:


> And just what sort of person would you find outside of your marriage? One willing to cheat with a married person. Means they will likely cheat on you too.
> 
> It is not easy to stay monogamous and TRY to work out the sexless marriage thing, but thinking of the alternative...it is certainly worth MANY tries to get it to work.


Agreed, but at some point you may have tried everything, so then it's time to leave or negotiate an open relationship if you don't want to leave (or else just live in frustration). So, another safe way is to have a consensual non-monogamous relationship.

Given that over half of all married people have cheated by the 5 year mark, and probably over 70% have cheated in longer relationships, almost any new relationship is likely to be with someone who has previously cheated.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

badsanta said:


> She joked and said that she would play the role of an IRS agent investigating me for receiving a fraudulent PPP loan while being shut down because I would never have had any real evidence of past clients willing to pay. She told me that fantasy would involve her putting me to work doing chores around the house to payback all the money I was pretending to earn.
> 
> So you can see in my case that role play is a bit of a challenge!


Role play has never happened here. I am probably the least qualified to make a useful suggestion, but will anyways.

She wants you to be culpable for something, and therefore be vulnerable to her exploitive domination of you?

Why not try to indulge her, in case the scenario she conjured up does indeed reflect some unspoken sort of desire. In the time it takes to blink, that is the scenario her subconscious came up with.

Maybe you’re both consistently “too good”, and she wants you to be bad so she feels ok trying on the bad girl role.

If you don’t feel comfortable starting the role play in person, write her a letter while “on the lam”, confessing in imaginative prose what you had done and telling her you need her to bring something to a local hotel or tell her you’ll sneak into the house late next Friday to get something she’ll leave in the guest room, and you hope she will keep your secret quiet and not shame you for it, and you’re sorry you’ll never be able to make it up to her.

If that works, future installments in the story could involve letters leading to rendezvous with “safe” thirds, e.g. you in the role of your accomplice, bystander that got involved, or agent on your trail, etc., each of who she could use her powers to affect.

Maybe I have too much time on my hands. But it seemed possible you were hesitant to accept the challenge, and technically at least she did suggest an opening.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

minimalME said:


> and really all of you who are still married and work on making things better.


I've fallen out of this group. I'm still technically married but I no longer try. The original premise of this thread is flawed. DW (delinquent wife) reads erotica nonstop. The garden is frozen tundra. Nothing has grown there in a decade. Even an ongoing emotional (at least) affair hasn't lit a fire in that wasteland.

We spent a long weekend together. After we returned home and slept off the travel fatigue, I awoke with two thoughts in my mind. The first was suicide, and the second was that simply divorcing would be easier.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I'm sorry that you're having such a hard time. Truly. 😔



Mr. Nail said:


> The first was suicide, and the second was that simply divorcing would be easier.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> I've fallen out of this group. I'm still technically married but I no longer try. The original premise of this thread is flawed. DW (delinquent wife) reads erotica nonstop. The garden is frozen tundra. Nothing has grown there in a decade. Even an ongoing emotional (at least) affair hasn't lit a fire in that wasteland.
> 
> We spent a long weekend together. After we returned home and slept off the travel fatigue, I awoke with two thoughts in my mind. The first was suicide, and the second was that simply divorcing would be easier.


I’m glad you shared that with us.

I’m really sorry too, @Mr. Nail. Being in your position is incredibly hard. Harder than many imagine, especially if they’ve not been in similar shoes.

Maybe you need to recognize how toxic it has been, and that you need some help to get yourself back to where you expect and experience better things for yourself, with or without her.

Sounds like despair has taken hold on you, if not depression. My layman’s understanding is, if thoughts about suicide come to mind, it’s time to get some professional help. You owe it to yourself, who you were, and who you might yet be. You owe it to anyone left in this world you still care about.

Your situation is inherently and majorly ****ty. I don’t mean to minimize it one iota. But it doesn’t have to mean the end of you. Nor does it have to mean you endlessly suffer. Something needs to change, outside of you and inside of you, and I’m confident things can be changed for the better, and you can have a much better life than seems possible to you right now.

Maybe you can’t see that from here, but the toxic situation you are mired in is blinding you.

Please reach out for help.

ETA: Vacations gave me some of the saddest memories from my marriage, contrasting greatly the things I wanted with the things I didn’t (and still don’t) have. That is what it is, but not the most important thing.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Thankfully I doubt he was serious re the suicide comment.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Thankfully I doubt he was serious re the suicide comment.


I am aware and conscious enough that I wouldn't make it up. I wouldn't have mentioned the thought had it not occured. I am worried that it did occur. I am not seriously considering suicide as the thought passed quickly. That's the good news. This was Tuesday morning. I would self diagnose that I am one step closer to divorce than I was before the vacation. I don't have overwhelming anger or even much frustration, I would say I awoke in despair. I think I've pretty much exhausted the possible fixes.
Now what was the topic here? That spin off from esther pearl. 
You can't nurture a garden of desire if your personal desire is to be done with sex. It doesn't matter how much dung you shovel on it. If you don't plant a seed all you get is ****ty dirt.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> I've fallen out of this group. I'm still technically married but I no longer try. The original premise of this thread is flawed. DW (delinquent wife) reads erotica nonstop. The garden is frozen tundra. Nothing has grown there in a decade. Even an ongoing emotional (at least) affair hasn't lit a fire in that wasteland.


Sorry about your challenges. I think we have all been at some low points, but it is all about how we pick ourselves up and move on. Even if divorce is your answer. 

Perhaps there is an opportunity to learn something. This is fascinating that your wife reads erotica but yet seems to be a frozen tundra in which nothing grows. Do you ever talk with her about the erotica that she reads, or is it something she is not willing to talk about? 

One thing that drastically helped my marriage was when I got my wife to take more of an interest in the erotic media that I consume. Well in reality I let go of my shame and stopped hiding it, and asked her to at least be aware. In turn she pointed out the things that she wanted me to avoid and what things she thought might actually be healthy. This in turn enabled us to have more open conversations. More open conversations improved communication and opportunities to learn about ourselves and each other. 

So I think your wife has a thriving garden if she reads erotica, but for some reason has it surrounded by a barrier of frozen wasteland. Out of curiosity have you ever read one of the books she reads or do you consider them to be silly?

Badsanta


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

@badsanta brings up some extremely good points.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Dear Bad Santa;

This is an interesting topic. I would like to share a few thoughts.

I agree that arousal does change with time. For example, my nipples are quite sensitive and an erogenous zone for me and in my youth that was never a way to get turned on. Also i am sex with my wife is much more emotionally important to me than earlier in our marriage.

As to "tending one's garden" I think the analogy is both good and not applicable. I think the only people who would tend their garden are either HD's who hope for more or for better sex or LD's who are trying to change. I see everyone as potentially benefiting, but could not imagine an LD that has sexual hangups wanting to explore her desires. The reason is fear of change. Many people are afraid of change and this is especially true when it comes to sex. They don't want to talk about different sexual positions for fear their partner will be horrified that they have become a pervert, or for fear that they may try something and their partner will insist on doing it almost exclusively if they don't like it.

As pointed out the ability to discover changes in arousal requires a partner or some form of masturbation or porn viewing. That is a hand up for some. The people who would benefit the most from tending a garden would (in my opinion) be the LD person and I think that they typically have some real anti-masturbation issues.

Now onto role playing. Again, for someone who wants to change, or experiment, role playing can be a way of embracing a different persona without having to judge your own actions too closely. The inhibited person can say it is not them and "they" would never do such things in real life, while comforting themself in the knowledge that it was not them really doing those things and they were doing them only for role playing game their partner set up.

For the nonadventurous, I think that the key to role playing is to establish deniability. For some a mask, is a great psychological way of hiding their identity. Masks were historically used by criminals, executioners, Marti Grai festival party goers and in a host of situations to allow people to both hide their identity or at least self delude themself some anonymity . Similarly, the use of restraints or bondage can allow someone to say (even with a safe word) that they would never ever do the things that were done to them. That the experiences were things "forced upon them." They were still a "good girl or good boy." Role playing allows one to dip ones toe into the forbidden while creating a denial that they would ever do such a thing.

Again, those that would benefit most from role playing are probably the ones that are least likely to want to do it, or tend their own garden.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

PieceOfSky said:


> If you don’t feel comfortable starting the role play in person, write her a letter...


That is an interesting idea.

In the books I recently read either Winks and Semans or Perel actually suggested the idea of opening a covert email account solely for the purpose of a husband and wife to communicate erotic ideas with one another. Now this was written back in the days prior to mobile technology, so now there are an infinite amount of ways that one could go about this. I however actually like the idea of getting away from technology and just writing hand written letters. 

The point of the authors was that written correspondence between spouses has some unique opportunities to be more erotic. Correspondence can be both private and allow time for someone to gather thoughts versus discussing things in person. They can also be read at a time when someone is open to reading such things. 

I kind of overlooked this, but you may be onto something!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> ...I see everyone as potentially benefiting, but could not imagine an LD that has sexual hangups wanting to explore her desires. The reason is fear of change. Many people are afraid of change and this is especially true when it comes to sex...


Thanks for your feedback. Yours is always well thought and we have read many of the same books. 

While reading your comments, one idea that I have that my wife does not want to explore or for me to be more in touch with what arouses her out of fear that it gives me more control over her. Meanwhile she very well knows what she can do to me and enjoys that power very much (I may encourage that as well).


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm a voracious reader. I read a lot of everything. It was part of what brought us together in the first place In the last 5 years, I've moved over to audio books or in a pinch an e-book. My eyes can't handle fine print any more. But to answer the question,


badsanta said:


> Out of curiosity have you ever read one of the books she reads or do you consider them to be silly?


Yes I have. When we met we both read science fiction. She returned to cheap (harlequin) romance in the first 10 years. Honestly that stuff is formula written sludge. and Louis L'aMour. I read bit of each but prefered rereading my old novels to save money rather than picking up formula crap to fill the gaps. Out of Shame she would do stints of Christian romance (same formula but the author draws the blinds a page earlier). I read some of that. Fact is she will read practically anything that I don't buy. I've never bought a book for her that she actually opened. A strange quirk.
Eventually Amazon perfected the Kindle and we got a used one. The explosion of the ebook market has increased the quantity and reduced the quality of this genre. I know you didn't think it was possible. But here it is an endless supply of shlock. I've read a few. I've even struck back by selecting titles I knew would bother / hurt her. Nothing no remorse, just a bigger straw. Regardless of the volume of whatever it is she reads, her desire doesn't go up a twitch. There is no thriving garden, the closest analogy I can think of is a former gardner who spends all their time watching gardening on tv. She hasn't had an original fantasy in at least 10 years. She used to claim that the books gave her inspiration, charged her up. But the battery is dead, it won't take a charge. 
She refuses to talk about sex
She refuses to plan sex.
She claims to have no fantasy.
She exhibits politically correct jealousy responses if pushed.
She is a very good imitation of a spouse. But it's all plastic and plaster. There is nothing inside.
It probably goes back to childhood trauma, or religion.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

You probably already know this, but Amazon has _tons_ of free books that you can download, if you have an e-reader/kindle. All sorts of topics.



Mr. Nail said:


> I'm a voracious reader. I read a lot of everything.
> 
> ...but prefered rereading my old novels to save money...


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

minimalME said:


> You probably already know this, but Amazon has _tons_ of free books that you can download, if you have an e-reader/kindle. All sorts of topics.


I do prefer books that have had the advantage of editing.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I don't know what this means?



Mr. Nail said:


> I do prefer books that have had the advantage of editing.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Well over 80% of the free e-books available on amazon (including the bulk of what my wife reads) are not edited. They are written, using a malfunctioning spell checker, read over by a friend and self published. If you have to pay for the book it goes something like this. Price up to .99 has been written by someone with a college degree. Price between .99 and 2.99. Has been written by an experienced writer and spell checked by another experienced Writer. Over $5.00 has actually been edited by a professional. over $8.00 hasd been edited by an experienced professional who was editing before e-books.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate new talent and I think it is great that they can find any audience. Eventually a few of them will be able to afford a real editor.


minimalME said:


> I don't know what this means?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Ah! I didn't know all this. 🤭

However, lots of the books I'm referring to are a bit older - Marcus Aurelius, Plato, Socrates.

Lots of lots of texbooks on the various aspects of physics and relativity, etc.

If the editing is off on those, it hasn't been a problem for me.

Also, I have periods/days where I just scour the internet for topics that I'm interested in - mainly science. I turn articles/papers into pdfs, and then they can go onto my kindle too.



Mr. Nail said:


> Well over 80% of the free e-books available on amazon (including the bulk of what my wife reads) are not edited. They are written, using a malfunctioning spell checker, read over by a friend and self published. If you have to pay for the book it goes something like this. Price up to .99 has been written by someone with a college degree. Price between .99 and 2.99. Has been written by an experienced writer and spell checked by another experienced Writer. Over $5.00 has actually been edited by a professional. over $8.00 hasd been edited by an experienced professional who was editing before e-books.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I appreciate new talent and I think it is great that they can find any audience. Eventually a few of them will be able to afford a real editor.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

minimalME said:


> However, lots of the books I'm referring to are a bit older - Marcus Aurelius, Plato, Socrates


Classics, a different story, there are two classes of classics. Free (scanned, with gaps and holes and errors) and cheap (scanned and checked) and a few that the publisher releases in E form that are actually readable. I've read some of each. Not plato and socrates.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> divorcing would be easier


I hope you get there, since divorce can be a splendid remedy.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

still here.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> Well over 80% of the free e-books available on amazon (including the bulk of what my wife reads) are not edited. They are written, using a malfunctioning spell checker, read over by a friend and self published. If you have to pay for the book it goes something like this. Price up to .99 has been written by someone with a college degree. Price between .99 and 2.99. Has been written by an experienced writer and spell checked by another experienced Writer. Over $5.00 has actually been edited by a professional. over $8.00 hasd been edited by an experienced professional who was editing before e-books.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I appreciate new talent and I think it is great that they can find any audience. Eventually a few of them will be able to afford a real editor.


I totally agree with you on this, and since this thread is about advocating for erotic media, there are many reasons why someone may object to such content. Particularly if the quality of the product is poor. With the invention of social media and new outlets for people to self publish, there is indeed a ton of works out there that have the finished production quality of only having been drafted with on a napkin and then someone hits publish. 

One tip I would recommend is to look for works that predate mobile technology. If those are available in digital format, someone had to go through a lot of trouble to bring the production up to date and format it for digital release. An example might be the works of Masters and Johnson. While yes it is indeed outdated, if you consider that the work was done by pairing random subjects to have sex and then study how to address common maladies, the context of that work has never been repeated ever in history (within a scientific university setting). There is still a great amount of value in that type of publication today. After having read Masters and Johnson, I find that a lot of their research is right on the money when it comes to what they observed (in great detail) for how people respond sexually. The one thing that really got me from that book was the documentation of what happens to the human body when sexual activity stops or is very limited over a great period of time. Essentially it becomes starved of hormones and important parts of the body start shutting down and deteriorating. Urinary incontinence had a tendency to be much more pronounced in older women with little or no sexual activity and everything else went it went downhill quick after the body was starved of hormones. Meanwhile women that were active at least once a week as they got older seemed to somehow maintain the hormones and overall health of women much younger. One could argue though about the relationship between causation and correlation. Perhaps older women that were already predisposition to be healthier into their older ages happened to enjoy staying sexually active. 

While scientific research like that may not seem that erotic, it is presented in such a way that it can make for some very good conversations between a husband and wife that easily avoid one's controversial aversions about sex. 

I'm sure Perel really enjoyed reading Masters and Johnson's works given her stance on non-monogamy. I know my wife actually enjoyed watching the HBO series "Masters of Sex" which was a rather explicit TV drama based on their research. 









Masters of Sex - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

With regards to the question of how to get someone to tend to their proverbial "erotic garden" so that arousal becomes easier, here is a recap:

Perel, Winks, & Semans:

Enjoying the idea/fantasy of non-monogamy
Erotic media combined with self exploration
..and the suggestions from TAM's peanut gallery:

Role play
Writing romantic/erotic letters to the LD
...so after some discussions with my wife and some thoughts, here is my suggestion:

Scheduling or increasing the frequency of nonsexual-erotic intimacy
...OK perhaps that makes no sense, but hear me out. In my opinion in HD/LD relationships, the LD actively avoids many forms of nonsexual intimacy that easily lend to being erotic out of fear that the HD will be triggered and then push/need to go all the way with PIV sex regardless of the LD's arousal levels. Actively avoiding this form of intimacy in my opinion serves to destroy the garden so to speak.

So what are forms of nonsexual-erotic intimacy that I am talking about? Well these are just my opinion, but examples of being very close physically in ways that should NOT just become limited to foreplay when sex is decided to be a sure thing:

Hugging while completely nude
Massaging each other in the nude (avoiding each other's erogenous zones)
Taking a bath/shower together
Using oils to massage each other
Shopping together online for sexy things
Calm and open discussions about the do's and don'ts of improving physical/emotional closeness during nonsexual intimacy
Then as these things are improved, a couple can work towards blending very mild forms of sexual intimacy with nonsexual intimacy. This would be:

Passionate kissing (perhaps all over)
Sexual touching with hands
Lingerie
Because doing these things can be attempted in the context that PIV should not necessarily occur, it may be the key ingredient needed to help eroticism thrive and grow. Perel says desire needs distance, so this would help do it in my opinion.

So if a HD/LD couple were able to ramp up nonsexual intimacy in ways that improve both physical/emotional closeness... well if the HD can keep control, odds are that the LD will loose control and have to have it. Failure to avoid sex will become rather exquisite and more natural.

Some books on therapy suggest exactly this. The way to have more and better sex is by purposely avoiding it so that the LD can enjoy getting close to a spouse again without the fear of always having to have sex. This in turn paradoxically somehow leads to more sex.

Regards,
Badsanta


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> With regards to the question of how to get someone to tend to their proverbial "erotic garden" so that arousal becomes easier, here is a recap:
> 
> Perel, Winks, & Semans:
> 
> ...


Except for the fact that pretending that your partner is someone else can get boring very quickly, since they aren't actually someone else.

Meanwhile let's also ignore the fact that someone can get highly aroused, without self exploration (masturbation) if they are doing arousing things with someone. Of which there's plenty of posts here that make it pretty clear that a encouraging a partner to masturbate, doesn't make the masturbator want to share more sex with someone when that sex is lame.



> ..and the suggestions from TAM's peanut gallery:
> 
> Role play
> Writing romantic/erotic letters to the LD


Yawn and triple backflip yawn!

Sexless marriage, ready or not here I come!

I guess you missed the memo from the gallery on being sexually exciting, being good at sex, and being bold, while not coming at sex like one needs to apologise for it. Plus not settling for less, and treating ones sexual partners like they are the sexual animals that they are.



> ...so after some discussions with my wife and some thoughts, here is my suggestion:
> 
> Scheduling or increasing the frequency of nonsexual-erotic intimacy


Really???!!! How on earth did you come to the conclusion, that it's a good idea to remove sex from erotic intimacy (which is a euphemism for sex)?



> ...OK perhaps that makes no sense, but hear me out.


It doesn't, yet I'm still reading.



> In my opinion in HD/LD relationships, the LD actively avoids many forms of nonsexual intimacy that easily lend to being erotic out of fear that the HD will be triggered and then push/need to go all the way with PIV sex regardless of the LD's arousal levels. Actively avoiding this form of intimacy in my opinion serves to destroy the garden so to speak.
> 
> So what are forms of nonsexual-erotic intimacy that I am talking about? Well these are just my opinion, but examples of being very close physically in ways that should NOT just become limited to foreplay when sex is decided to be a sure thing:
> 
> ...


So let me get this straight, in the absence of getting the sex someone wants. You think the best path to getting more sex is to double down on smothering ones partner non-sexually. While also trying to do things that are ostensibly sexual, while pretending to oneself and to ones sexual partner that such behaviour has nothing to do with sex?



> Then as these things are improved, a couple can work towards blending very mild forms of sexual intimacy with nonsexual intimacy. This would be:
> 
> Passionate kissing (perhaps all over)
> Sexual touching with hands
> Lingerie


So you read Perel, who catalogues a range of different women. Saying that they don't want to have sex with their sexual partners, because they are too accommodating, too conscientious, too passive, too needy, not exciting and not dirty enough, while they are afraid to **** them sideways. And you think the solution for that, is to go out of ones way to work up to being too accommodating, too conscientious, too passive, too needy, not exciting and not dirty enough, while being afraid to **** ones partner sideways!



> Because doing these things can be attempted in the context that PIV should not necessarily occur, it may be the key ingredient needed to help eroticism thrive and grow. Perel says desire needs distance, so this would help do it in my opinion.


Distance means not smothering them all of the time and coming across as overtly needy.

Yet you seem to think it's a good idea to schedule more (supposedly non-sexual) hugs, massages, bathing, shopping and endless discussions about sexual intimacy! which is literally the opposite of what she suggests.

Perhaps you should consider affording ones partner some real physical space, not smothering them, not coming across as needy and not being apologetic for wanting to f them and being forward and sexually bold. Since it is far more effective than what you're peddling.



> So if a HD/LD couple were able to ramp up nonsexual intimacy in ways that improve both physical/emotional closeness... well if the HD can keep control, odds are that the LD will loose control and have to have it. Failure to avoid sex will become rather exquisite and more natural.


Is this one of those things where if you say it enough times, hopefully someone might believe it?



> Some books on therapy suggest exactly this. The way to have more and better sex is by purposely avoiding it so that the LD can enjoy getting close to a spouse again without the fear of always having to have sex. This in turn paradoxically somehow leads to more sex.


Have you bought any bridges lately? Since in case you haven't noticed, the reality is that when people avoid having sex with their partners, it often leads to less sex rather than more of it.

That said I think you ought to know, that twisting oneself into a pretzel doesn't make for more sex, it just turns one into a pretzel.

P.S. Thanks for the discussion, and I hope you have a good weekend.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

badsanta said:


> Perel says desire needs distance, *so this would help do it in my opinion*.


Forgive me that I've not followed the whole thread but this stood out to me as I found disagreement in this. I did a quick google on Perel and it seems what she is referring to is a sense of psychological distance - to be your own person which she theorises then inadvertently fuels desire.

_'Instead of always striving for closeness … couples may be better off cultivating their separate selves… There is beauty in an image that highlights a connection to oneself, rather than a distance from one’s partner. In our mutual intimacy we make love, we have children, and we share physical space and interests. Indeed, we blend the essential parts of our lives. But “essential” does not mean “all.” Personal intimacy demarcates a private zone, one that requires tolerance and respect. It is a space — physical, emotional, and intellectual — that belongs only to me. Not everything needs to be revealed. 

Love enjoys knowing everything about you; desire needs mystery. Love likes to shrink the distance that exists between me and you, while desire is energized by it. If intimacy grows through repetition and familiarity, eroticism is numbed by repetition. It thrives on the mysterious, the novel, and the unexpected. Love is about having; desire is about wanting. An expression of longing, desire requires ongoing elusiveness. It is less concerned with where it has already been than passionate about where it can still go. But too often, as couples settle into the comforts of love, they cease to fan the flame of desire. They forget that fire needs air.'_

What I personally take from this, I might liken to when I see Batman from a kind of 'outsider' perspective when he's engaged with something separate to us; could be public speaking, or his involvement with volunteering; there's a healthy separateness. And, he's his own person that is distinct from him and I together. There's a refreshed view of who he is in his own right... and that in itself is alluring to me. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this well. Or if I'm missing the point entirely. Like I said, I haven't followed the whole thread.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Thinking on this further, the notion that desire thrives on the unexpected, well, it was unexpected to me when Batman first mentioned he was going to volunteer - and I wasn't too happy about it as I was fearful. He basically was going to do it, nonetheless; it wasn't about me. So I needed to get onboard, and he did a good job of including me enough to feel reassured that the crew have each others back. I can't worry when he's on call-outs; it's pointless and not helpful to him or to me. One time he arrived home quite late and covered in smoke; I greeted him with a herbal tea and shared a shower to wash him off. That was my way of being supportive, and yes, there's a certain desire fueled in knowing that he is following his own path, and yet not to the exclusion of me. I remember another time, he shared with me that when they stopped to refuel, some people nearby applauded them and ran over to give them snacks and drinks. He was quite taken aback by this. Him and those he's with during those times are very humble. And yet, the respect I feel in knowing what he's about, and moreso that _he_ has a solid sense of self, does translate into something for me.. I'll suggest it's desirable admiration. It's separate and yet not excluding.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Personal said:


> Distance means not smothering them all of the time and coming across as overtly needy.


Yes, that too.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

badsanta said:


> One safe way to explore this topic suggested by Perel would be through role play. Perhaps one person pretends to be a movie star and the other a love interest played by another character. One example Perel used was that of a wife that put on a wig and met her husband at work for a hot lunch date, to enjoy the fantasy of his coworkers thinking he may be having an affair.
> 
> Another safe example the authors cite is to use erotic media and enjoy stories and/or video of other people that you will never meet in real life. But find a way that this can be explored as a couple without shame or jealousy.
> 
> ...


i have to tell you...role play can be a LOT of fun.
and all from the safety of your own bedroom!
Halloween is coming up...time to stock up on interesting...costumes?


be honest guys, if your wife walked into the room dressed like this...could you resist her???









Amazon.com: Saturday Night Live Women's Spartan Cheerleader Costume : Clothing, Shoes & Jewelry


Amazon.com: Saturday Night Live Women's Spartan Cheerleader Costume : Clothing, Shoes & Jewelry



www.amazon.com





or this one









Amazon.com: Night Shift Nurse Women's Halloween Costume - Adult Cosplay Dress (Small) : Clothing, Shoes & Jewelry


Buy Night Shift Nurse Women's Halloween Costume - Adult Cosplay Dress (Small): Shop top fashion brands Clothing, Shoes & Jewelry at Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY and Returns possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> Forgive me that I've not followed the whole thread but this stood out to me as I found disagreement in this. I did a quick google on Perel and it seems what she is referring to is a sense of psychological distance - to be your own person which she theorises then inadvertently fuels desire.


That is indeed a very good point. I have read so much of Schnarch and he addresses this exact concept with the idea of differentiation of individuals that make the relationship. Like a gardener and chef working very close, each knows who they are as an individual and never feel threatened that the other person defines them. Yet the closer they get, the more the two relationships compliment each other. 

Perhaps Perel was touching on that. 

By desire needing distance, I personally take that to mean that you have to take the idea of sex and give it some distance. Perhaps some folks benefit from additional forms of distance (like traveling apart). An example might be that of a medical procedure and the doctor informs you that sex should be avoided for a certain period of time. Many couples find such a dynamic does serve to create a sense of distance. It can also help alleviate stress if one person is feeling pressured and help reestablish a good emotional connection that is needed for sex to later thrive. 

This is very different from couples that initiate sex, things are rejected, and then nonsexual intimacy follows. Because in that situation the damage is done as in one person feels pressured and then guilty and the other feels neglected and then frustrated. That cocktail of emotions makes sex feel too close and unsettling. Meanwhile a couple enjoying closeness without the pressure of sex can enjoy distance by sex being made "artificially" distant in a safe way. Kind of like engaging in sex but being limited to foreplay. At some point desire will build and this artificial barrier will get torn down. 

Perhaps I am getting more at about how desire does not like to play by rules of fairness. Set up a rule to prevent desire, and desire will step in and kick the doors down to show you that your not allowed to make such rules. 

Reverse psychology if you will. 

Go to bed, absolutely no sparks tonight! Don't even think about it. Like keep yourself cool. Cooled way down. That is not cool enough! Wait... What happened to your underwear? 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> Distance means not smothering them all of the time and coming across as overtly needy.
> 
> Yet you seem to think it's a good idea to schedule more (supposedly non-sexual) hugs, massages, bathing, shopping and endless discussions about sexual intimacy! which is literally the opposite of what she suggests.


That is a very good point. 

I would like to note that my wife and I both keep extremely busy schedules. It would be so easy for us to go through entire days without having five minutes to sit down and talk sometime. So when we do get a moment with one another, my wife tends to be very needy for nonsexual intimacy. She wants a hug. She wants a back rub. She wants to lay down in my lap while I rub her hair. Sometimes she even forces my hand to start rubbing her back as she nuzzles into my arms. Me on the other hand tends to be very needy for sexual intimacy, so I end up getting obviously aroused and my wife then feels as if I am all about just using her for sex and she then pushes me away. She sometimes struggles with low self esteem and refuses to attribute my arousal as something that comes from wanting/enjoying to feel emotionally/physically close to her. 

I've been working on that. Things get better. It is worth the effort. I am not complaining, I just really enjoy learning. 

Thanks for reading! 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Talker67 said:


> i have to tell you...role play can be a LOT of fun.
> and all from the safety of your own bedroom!
> Halloween is coming up...time to stock up on interesting...costumes?
> 
> ...



Interesting links. I can’t wait to see what Amazon starts recommending for me next.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

PieceOfSky said:


> Interesting links. I can’t wait to see what Amazon starts recommending for me next.


well there are better sites than Amazon for kinky stuff. 
i just thought posting here on TAM, links should be more "family oriented"

LOL


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## Kriskross (Sep 28, 2020)

Ye, I remember when I had this problems.
We tried all : toys , Lubricants , role-playing games, joint sex rest, change of partners.
One day we find an online game yareel 3d.
I had playing with my husband, and you know , I felt me more better, he can do only what I want, a lot of poses, locations.I felt very excited. This was something new for me. Experience


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

PieceOfSky said:


> Interesting links. I can’t wait to see what Amazon starts recommending for me next.


On a sidenote.... I have so much fun on Amazon looking at the "customer's also purchased" items for various adult novelties. You see some really bizarre scenarios. 

One adult novelty recommended a lock-pick tool set along with imitation driveway spikes. Another included a waterproof selfie stick along with swimming goggles. 

You know.... I am going to start writing some erotic stories that are based solely on Amazon's recommendations for things people also purchase

Here is an odd example for king size waterproof sheets: Amazon.com: KINK By Doc Johnson Wet Works Fitted Waterproof King Sheet, Black: Health & Personal Care

Customers also purchased:

Lots of lube
Moisture proof blankets
Waterproof pillows
Wedged pillows for sex
Leg cuffs
more lubes
Thongs
Programable door lock

Most of those things don't even raise an eyebrow, but the programable door lock I do find intriguing. I mean I am thinking this is how some folks likely make a lot of money running a vacation rental, but your not really paying for the the accommodations but instead you are paying for the all inclusive in-room services!

Badsanta


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

badsanta said:


> So if a HD/LD couple were able to ramp up nonsexual intimacy in ways that improve both physical/emotional closeness... *well if the HD can keep control, odds are that the LD will loose control and have to have it. Failure to avoid sex will become rather exquisite and more natural.*
> 
> Some books on therapy suggest exactly this. The way to have more and better sex is by purposely avoiding it so that the LD can enjoy getting close to a spouse again without the fear of always having to have sex. This in turn paradoxically somehow leads to more sex.
> 
> ...


I don't believe the bolded part. Is there any evidence that LD people start loosing control and have to have it? I know it would do nothing for my wife.

I have just started looking for a metaphor that would explain the HD/LD dinamics and I have not found one that fits yet, but I am fairly confident that this 'working/tending your garden' doesn't.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

badsanta said:


> On a sidenote.... I have so much fun on Amazon looking at the "customer's also purchased" items for various adult novelties. You see some really bizarre scenarios.


We were looking at "toys" on amazon yesterday, and also visited the local sex shop for some lube and browsed. My, the technology has changed a lot in just a few years! The designs look positively alien, and could easily be mistaken for implements of torture rather than pleasure (well, the BDSM stuff is fairly unambiguous). Wireless charging, bluetooth and wifi remote control, etc.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> We were looking at "toys" on amazon yesterday, and also visited the local sex shop for some lube and browsed. My, the technology has changed a lot in just a few years! The designs look positively alien, and could easily be mistaken for implements of torture rather than pleasure (well, the BDSM stuff is fairly unambiguous). Wireless charging, bluetooth and wifi remote control, etc.


I had never done any VR stuff, and put on a VR headset the other day. Of course the first thing I did was watch a VR porn out of curiosity. HOLY COW! 

Yes, technology has indeed come a long way! 

Unfortunately this is of no use for the garden as my wife gets huge headaches after watching anything in 3D. We've been to see one or two of the Disney 3D movies with family and she says it makes her eyes hurt and gives her a headache. VR is way more immersive than that! 

But again, OMG!

Could you imagine being tied up and blindfolded using a VR headset so that you get to be both a voyeur and the main participant at the same time. As if an out-of-body experience! 

I bet Perel would applaud that idea.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

So I was reading recently and came across a website article that gets at almost the same concept I am discussing in this thread:









Trapped gatekeepers - blame the guard, not the prisoner - Uncovering Intimacy


Do you feel that you are trapped by your low libido? Do you "want to want to" have sex? This post explains what's going on, and how to deal with this war going on in your brain.




www.uncoveringintimacy.com





So while this thread uses the analogy of a garden the needs to be tended in order for someone to grow the fruits of eroticism and arousal, this person takes a completely different perspective to arousal difficulties. The analogy used in the person article is that of a prison guard holding someone's arousal captive against their will. The article then goes into detail about way to get past the guard so to speak (or get through the overgrown garden I might say). He advocates for the Michele Weiner-Davis method of just doing it even if you are in the mood or not but admits that doing so can be unsettling to the LD spouse. Because this author is mostly Christian the ideas of non-monogamy or porn/masturbation are discarded or not mentioned. The following things are suggested:

Massage and in particular a "full body massage" 
Bedroom Games like playing truth or dare
Edgier Play like blindfold or mild bondage
*Write your own erotica*

I find the last one rather interesting as it fits into the original idea that I wanted to advocate. How do you get a LD spouse to cultivate their own eroticism? Well I think asking that person to try and write an erotic story could indeed be very revealing and helpful. Writing a story takes time and imagination. The idea of it being erotic fiction could then allow an LD to be free and open because such things are not happening in real life, just in their imagination. 

So this would be one that I am curious to try. I imagine my wife would find the request for her to write me an erotic story to be annoying and perhaps silly. So my first curiosity is to see if she would be willing to try or see what excuse she gives for not wanting to. I imagine I should write her one as a way to start the discussion. Worth a try...

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Massage and in particular a "full body massage"
> Bedroom Games like playing truth or dare
> Edgier Play like blindfold or mild bondage
> *Write your own erotica*


In my experience of massaging different women, it doesn't lead to more sex at all. What it leads to is women wanting to go to sleep afterwards and more requests for more massages and more sleeep.



badsanta said:


> I imagine my wife would find the request for her to write me an erotic story to be annoying and perhaps silly.


Of course she would find it annoying, because it is silly.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> ...I imagine my wife would find the request for her to write me an erotic story to be annoying and perhaps silly. So my first curiosity is to see if she would be willing to try or see what excuse she gives for not wanting to. I imagine I should write her one as a way to start the discussion. Worth a try...


By coincidence my wife was talking to one of her friends that is in a sexless marriage (about once every four months). This friend asked my wife if she though counseling would help and my wife responded that any such effort would just be a joke unless both spouses participated. 

Later that day I pointed out to my wife that while I have read many self help books on sexual intimacy that she has read none of them. I then asked her if it was a joke to her that I was the only person reading them. Of course that started an argument and she got very defensive. But when I asked her why she did not bother to read anything of that nature she claimed that those books were useless and whatever useful information was there could be summed up in just one or two sentences (that I usually share with her verbally). I advocated that she should read one or two and that it should help improve communication between us on the topic of intimacy. She agreed with me, but after a week she has made no effort to read any of the books I have. 

Interestingly one of our biggest fights many many years ago was about self help books for intimacy. I talked with her about the idea of ordering some books and she said it sounded like a great idea. So I ordered the books and the day they arrived I handed one to my wife. She freaking blew up at me and got furious that I would order such a book (as if she forgot that I had asked her before ordering it). I am not completely sure why she got so upset, but I think it was because the book was authored by a woman. It was as if the most offensive thing I could do is tell my wife to take sex advice from another woman on how to please me in the bedroom:









Slow Sex: The Path to Fulfilling and Sustainable Sexuality: Richardson, Diana: 9781594773679: Amazon.com: Books


Slow Sex: The Path to Fulfilling and Sustainable Sexuality [Richardson, Diana] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Slow Sex: The Path to Fulfilling and Sustainable Sexuality



www.amazon.com





That book has sat unopened and unread for many years now. I remember after fighting about this book that my wife made more of an effort and demonstrated in the bedroom why she did not need to read some stupid book in order to have good sex. So while I am just going to leave it there forever I suppose as an unread casualty of our arguments over the years. Who knows if the book is even any good. I even question it at this point. But at its core it was something potentially erotic to read and my wife rejected it (angrily so) many years ago.

When I revisited the idea yesterday of her reading any of the many self help books I have read over the years, she claimed that I was bullying her on the topic and that I needed to stop. I accused her of projecting and said that she is the one that has bullied me over the years and that there was nothing sinister about advocating for her to read any of the self help books that I have enjoyed reading over the years to improve our communication. She grumbled and then left for most of the day to go run errands. 

The irony is that we do maintain a relatively good sex life. Heaven forbid I try to talk to her about it to work out ways to help reduce anxiety surrounding the topic. 

Can't blame a guy for wanting more! 



Badsanta


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

badsanta said:


> By coincidence my wife was talking to one of her friends that is in a sexless marriage (about once every four months). This friend asked my wife if she though counseling would help and my wife responded that any such effort would just be a joke unless both spouses participated.
> 
> Later that day I pointed out to my wife that while I have read many self help books on sexual intimacy that she has read none of them. I then asked her if it was a joke to her that I was the only person reading them. Of course that started an argument and she got very defensive. But when I asked her why she did not bother to read anything of that nature she claimed that those books were useless and whatever useful information was there could be summed up in just one or two sentences (that I usually share with her verbally). I advocated that she should read one or two and that it should help improve communication between us on the topic of intimacy. She agreed with me, but after a week she has made no effort to read any of the books I have.
> 
> ...


Maybe she just does not like to read.
tie her up in your bed, and read some chapters of the books to her.

just an idea....


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Talker67 said:


> Maybe she just does not like to read.
> tie her up in your bed, and read some chapters of the books to her.
> 
> just an idea....


Ha!

A great response


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Can't blame a guy for wanting more!
> 
> 
> 
> Badsanta


Indeed! However, since you have a decent sex life it may be counterproductive to keep obsessing over this issue when it' seems clear that nothing will change. Besides, I think you might just be frustrating yourself pursuing this without any substantial change. Perhaps you'd be better off (including sexually, as your wife might feel less pressure) if you completely let this go and invest your time in an unrelated hobby that provides a different kind of satisfaction.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Indeed! However, since you have a decent sex life it may be counterproductive to keep obsessing over this issue when it' seems clear that nothing will change. Besides, I think you might just be frustrating yourself pursuing this without any substantial change. Perhaps you'd be better off (including sexually, as your wife might feel less pressure) if you completely let this go and invest your time in an unrelated hobby that provides a different kind of satisfaction.


In my marriage there is a decent sex life because I have to fight to maintain it. If I just let go, she is perfectly content without sex and claims it is of no importance to her. Over the years I have gone through passive aggressive bouts of withdrawing from her sexually. From her perspective she just claims, "you have been in an ill mood for weeks so I don't want anything to do with you" even if I am perfectly content enjoying my hobbies. 

I do have a hobby that I spend considerable time enjoying and sharing with friends. It is one that gets me out of the house and lots of exercise. But current events make the social aspect of this hobby to be something I do mostly in isolation at the moment. 

My wife does read a tremendous amount of books. So it has become somewhat of a soar spot at the moment that I have pointed out there she has never read any self-help books for marital intimacy. Especially after she commented to a friend of ours that any efforts for therapy would be a joke unless both participate. 

So I have given her a book to read about understanding how sexual desire works that is written by a medical doctor that also has done extensive work as a therapist. It approaches the psychology of sexuality from a clinical perspective to point out the pros and cons of modern medicine's ability to solve marital problems in a way that to me seems really on point. Most importantly it sheds a lot of light on the health benefits of what staying sexually active can accomplish for the body. The book is written by a woman, so it does not come across as a tool for men to manipulate women for more sex. It is just overall sex positive and how that is a good thing for your health. 

In the meantime my wife is a health fanatic. There are many aspects to sex that she still approaches with a great deal of disgust. For one she is not happy with her body and thinks that the body's sexual organs are kinda gross (mostly how she feel about her own body). Heaven forbid any part of my body come into contact with her anus, because there are germs there. If something slips and touches that area, everything must stop and be cleaned with soap and water. I mean I understand what it is to keep things clean, but my wife holds the bedroom to that same standards of food safety in a commercial kitchen. Anything that touches meat can not be used for vegetables again until it gets cleaned. After oral, no more kissing on the lips (unless I wipe my face down with a towel). After PIV, no more oral. OMFG STOP something touched my anus.... 

There was a romantic comedy where this woman was on a hot date. While having a romantic walk through the city they came upon a porta-potty and the guys needs to use it right quick. He comes out and immediately puts his hands on her face and gives her a big kiss (while she is obviously freaking out about him not having washed his hands). ...that moment kinda describes what it is like to have foreplay in my marriage. OMG you grabbed my butt, do you know what kind of day I have had down there!!!??? _...sorry let me go wash my hands. _

Badsanta


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

You have my sympathy, @badsanta. Having to fight so hard just to maintain things must be exhausting.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

So my wife has FINALLY started reading some of the things I suggested as well as doing some online research of her own. Her first revelation is to have a better understanding of the dynamics created by people with very different types of sexual drive. 

Whatever it was she was reading (something she discovered online) mentioned the types of sexual arousal that a woman may experience and compared that to what a man might experience. She claimed that it seemed right on point and that she does feel aroused often but that she chooses to just ignore it in favor of staying busy and productive with her daily work schedule. The suggestion from what she was reading talked about making it a point to be more aware of those feelings/sensations and using that as an opportunity to improve intimacy in a relationship. 

Meanwhile I think she has resentment toward my drive because to her it seems both arbitrary and overwhelming. Perhaps as if someone having sexual diarrhea that causes an irritable urge to orgasm during an otherwise busy schedule. As if for sure it is not very loving because she can't seem to empathize with my drive. However whatever it is she is reading described it very differently and within the context of loving someone and having desire as a result. So she was like, "is this (as described in her reading) how you feel?" And I was like, "HELLO!" 

It was if when I tell her something about how I feel, she has refused to believe it over the years as if I was trying to manipulate her. But once she read it from the point of view of someone else saying the exact same thing, then everything suddenly seemed more plausible. 

So I am not sure if things will continue to improve. But we seem to have finally taken another step forwards. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Revisiting this thread...

So after my wife has finally done some reading and understands how to read the signals from her own body (as opposed to ignoring them), she has finally been the one to start initiating things. 

The result one time was almost a comical role reversal in that it caught me totally by surprise and I was the one with some slight arousal difficulties. Meanwhile my wife had no problems and went off like a perfect Space X Rocket launch. 

So this throws my gardening theory all to crap! It was rather enlightening for me to be the one having too many thoughts running through my head. So in my house with family, we all have busy schedules and use meal prep as a way to save money and make the days run smoothly. Sometimes my wife preps meals in advance and sometimes I do. Well it was my turn and I had a bunch of groceries that needed to be prepped into meals and placed in the freezer before the ingredients spoiled. I was tired and knew that I had about an hour of work to do in the kitchen or else groceries would spoil and the week's meal plans were about to go to sh** (because I had been procrastinating on getting this done). So when my wife asked me to get naked, I looked at her and replied, "you mind if I go get all the lunches for the week done first?" She then grabbed me and threw herself on top of me. I literally couldn't stop worrying about two pounds of strawberries getting all soggy and a half dozen avocados getting all overripe and all gross looking, because I always pass out immediately after sex. Well I was able to go through the motions with mild arousal and enjoy things, but I didn't reach climax. Afterwards I got my stuff done in the kitchen and then ended up having trouble sleeping while the wife was passed out sleeping.

The next day she was very affectionate and mentioned she felt a bit guilty (just like I usually do!). ...I was like, "well I have probably done that to you 1000 times, so that was actually a valuable experience for me to learn what it feels like to not quite get there with you." 

It was like one of those movies were two people do a body swap or something!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

badsanta said:


> So my wife has FINALLY started reading some of the things I suggested as well as doing some online research of her own. Her first revelation is to have a better understanding of the dynamics created by people with very different types of sexual drive.
> 
> Whatever it was she was reading (something she discovered online) mentioned the types of sexual arousal that a woman may experience and compared that to what a man might experience. She claimed that it seemed right on point and that she does feel aroused often but that she chooses to just ignore it in favor of staying busy and productive with her daily work schedule. The suggestion from what she was reading talked about making it a point to be more aware of those feelings/sensations and using that as an opportunity to improve intimacy in a relationship.
> 
> ...


My wife said something similar to me a while back, same lines as:


badsanta said:


> she does feel aroused often but that she chooses to just ignore it in favor of staying busy and productive with her daily work schedule.


I found that odd....my brain works so differently. My wife said sometimes he gets not only a bit aroused, but sometimes a lot, and then can just ignore it and go on with her day.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Revisiting this thread...
> 
> So after my wife has finally done some reading and understands how to read the signals from her own body (as opposed to ignoring them), she has finally been the one to start initiating things.
> 
> ...


If you could share anymore about what she is exploring, it might be helpful to other posters. Give them some ideas of more reading they can explore.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

leftfield said:


> If you could share anymore about what she is exploring, it might be helpful to other posters. Give them some ideas of more reading they can explore.


Well when it comes to the topic of sex, my wife accuses me of being "too controlling" of her. She has refused to read the books that I have suggested and she apparently has just explored the topic on her on via the internet. Eventually she found something that resonated with her and I have no idea what the source of that is. 

Based on other stories that I have read, the LD spouse rarely seems willing to read a self help book. An HD spouse reading the book on behalf of the couple has limited results if that. From a lot that I have read, there is an indication that for the LD spouse that they are often made to feel like the HD is the one being very pushy and controlling about sex (even though it feels the other way around about not having sex to the HD). 

Whatever it was my wife shared with me verbally of what she learned. Whatever she read indicated that someone with a lower drive tends to experience "small moments" of interest. It may be something like noticing your spouse looking very attractive while wearing a certain shirt, or a moment that feels like a shimmer of sexual excitement. The reading suggested that those are the moments to try and act on those feelings if possible as that is an opportunity where arousal is likely going to be easily facilitated once things start happening.

Meanwhile her reading suggested as if someone with a higher drive pretty much walks around all day waist deep in lava while carrying something that is on fire. (I'm exaggerating a bit, but that was the gesture of her words when she described what it is like to have high desire based on her reading)

While writing this, I am thinking that it is not actually like that for me. I'm kind of like a person that if I see a lava puddle that I want to go jump in it and see what kind of splash it makes. So this morning as my wife was getting dressed, I often enjoy being a bit playful. I'll joke that something looks too sexy and that she should wear something more conservative. While tryin on cloths, she will play around and throw on a shirt that shows a lot of cleavage and then shove herself in my face to ask if she found the right shirt. At that point I'll reach under her cloths and give her a close hug while I put my face in her boobs. She knows I like that. But then she will ask, "why do you do that to yourself?" So she knows she was teasing me, but yet she does wonder why I embrace allowing her to do that when it is an otherwise inopportune time. I enjoy being aroused and desiring her, even if I have to wait. Kinda like splashing in a puddle of lava and getting myself in a bit of a predicament for a while. Meanwhile I think historically my wife tends to do the opposite. She knows she is busy and has likely viewed arousal and desire as things that are distracting and are a huge potential disruption to her schedule should we act on those feelings. Perhaps that is at the core of what needs work. Allowing yourself to play with those feelings as opposed to ignoring them or viewing them as potentially too disruptive. 

Not sure if that helps. But that is all I got regarding feedback at the moment. 

Badsanta


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Well when it comes to the topic of sex, my wife accuses me of being "too controlling" of her. She has refused to read the books that I have suggested and she apparently has just explored the topic on her on via the internet. Eventually she found something that resonated with her and I have no idea what the source of that is.
> 
> Based on other stories that I have read, the LD spouse rarely seems willing to read a self help book. An HD spouse reading the book on behalf of the couple has limited results if that. From a lot that I have read, there is an indication that for the LD spouse that they are often made to feel like the HD is the one being very pushy and controlling about sex (even though it feels the other way around about not having sex to the HD).
> 
> ...


Interesting....my wife has expressed very similar things to me. In her case, she has said sometimes she feels aroused and considers the idea of sex for a moment, but then goes through some metal process where she determines that it may not work out (not enough time, too much on her mind, kids around), and then she just ignores it. She also told me that she often intentionally does not tell me about this, assuming as the HD partner that it will cause me to either get worked up and then disappointed or just straight disappointment at a lost opportunity. I asked her to consider being more vocal and sharing about these times (even if they never result in anything), because as the HD, I do like feeling wanted and feeling more connected to her by the vulnerability and openness of her sharing. 

She took me up on this a few weeks ago (although still rare for her to do), and she told me one evening that earlier in the day she had a random though about reverse cowgirl PIV and it got her physically aroused. It happened to be a day and time that we had family coming over soon after these thoughts, so she just kid of ignored it and let it pass, but I was encouraged that she shared it. She claims that if these moments of arousal happen and there is opportunity, that she acts on many of them, but I think it is less often than it actually happens, hence her earlier explanation. 

I would really enjoy and feel good about her at least sharing that it happened more, even if she does not yet capitalize on taking those feeling and translating into action. Baby steps


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I would really enjoy and feel good about her at least sharing that it happened more, even if she does not yet capitalize on taking those feeling and translating into action. Baby steps


I totally agree with that. Me too!

For my wife I think every so often she wakes up in the middle of the night in the mood, but she just goes right back to sleep and never does anything about it because she complains that after sex she has trouble getting to sleep. Occasionally she will tell me about this happening and I ask her to wake me up the next time it happens. .....(Spongebob image and a silly voice saying "many years later').... to date she has still never woken me up in the middle of the night. 

Once it is bedtime, my wife is already too worried about all the stuff she has to get done the next day. If she can't sleep the only things that calms her down after midnight is getting out her agenda and detailing her plans to get everything done and plan the following week in advance. 

I kinda wish she could experience the bliss of the refractory period as I do where emotionally the whole world just melts away and nothing else matters zzz zzz ZZZ ZZZ ZZZ (see you in my dreams). I mean the male refractory hormones are enough to take an overwhelming rocket engine blasting off into the sky and then.... the sudden silence and calmness of being out of this world and just floating weightlessly in never ending space. I often wonder if that is why more men embrace sex and learn how to just make it happen. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I kinda wish she could experience the bliss of the refractory period as I do...


Meanwhile for the wife intimacy seems to energize her and she might struggle to get to sleep afterwards.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

As I reflect on this thread and my others throughout the years, I think a key aspect to understanding arousal difficulties is the notion of one partner being over controlling. Kinda like the gesture of giving someone a gift while insisting that he/she enjoy it along with specific instructions of when and how it will be enjoyed. The only remaining control the LD has at that point is to just not participate in receiving said "gift." Then that pattern builds as a way to try and rebalance things so that one is not controlling the other, but it is a pattern that locks itself into a nosedive like an airplane falling from the sky and spinning out of control. If a couple can get out of this nosedive, it takes a lot to get the relationship back on course, but at the same time you gain some serious skills for maneuvering as a team. 

One thing fascinating is that the topic of gift giving and gift receiving is often discussed as a significant aspect of relationship problems. For me personally I am probably the world's worst gift giver because I don't have the patience to wrap it up and wait for a special occasion. I am the kind of husband that buys a gift for my wife, comes home with it in the plastic shopping bag, and proceeds to yell at her to hurry it up off the toilet because I am waiting outside the bathroom door with a gift (rather non-enthusiastic applause sounds). Now I realize this and I am working on myself to get a little better at it. So far I am only able to get my wife to give gifts the way I do. Last year for Christmas we gave each other our gifts a month early (just after shopping during the Thanksgiving break) and then basically nothing on Christmas day. The reasoning was that if you buy something on a really good sale that is expensive and you only have 30 days to return it, then don't blame me that we have to open gifts early and make sure we want to keep them since the sale was 30 days before Christmas. 

That particular gift from last year is one we now use everyday since. So I guess teaching my wife to be more like me is working out! But she has been so hesitant over the years to finally compromise to my way of enjoying life. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

So, my wife has continued to read (not sure what she is reading to be honest) and things have continued to improve. The last time we were together she did experience some difficulties. This time she was open about it and asked me to try something a little different. In her words she said that she was feeling very tired and she asked me to help by doing something that allowed her to take on passive role and provided more stimulation for her. The thing here is that SHE knew what she wanted in this situation and she had the confidence to ask for it. The resulting intimacy was spectacular for both of us. 

Generally in these situations it is like foreplay that gets me going. Then she just can't really get in the mood and pushes me away. Having recently experienced that situation in almost a role reversal, I can admit that it is not easy to be open about arousal difficulties as it is happening. The instinct is to just not mess with your partner's mojo or withdraw to wait for a better moment.

...and that gets at the heart of what has had me so frustrated over the years. That feeling of one partner not allowing the other to even try. And by "try" I mean being open about what might help to create the sensations of arousal. If it happens great, and if not that is perfectly OK as well. At least be open to trying to communicate about it. I can now respect that is a difficult thing to do, so I am elated that my wife had the courage to speak up when she was struggling and that she knew what to ask me to do. That seems so simple, but yet to me it seems like a major break through. 

As my wife and I work on our marriage, we talk about looking forwards to the days ahead once the kids are grown up and have moved out of the house. Then we can go back to as if dating each other again and enjoying much more time for ourselves as a couple. Another neat thing that happened this weekend was that my wife made us a priority over going out to spend time with her female friends. We ended up going out together for a nature hike somewhere new and enjoyed making exercise fun as a couple. I didn't realize she had canceled her other plans until after we got home and she said that spending time with me definitely turned out much better than hours of listening to her female friends complain endlessly about life. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

...I'll add an update here.

Recently my wife initiated when I was not in the mood. She commented that she wanted to get me in the mood. This is something that has not happened regarding allowing my wife to take responsibility for my arousal. I'll admit that I harbor resentment in this area because I feel that it has been a burden for me to take responsibility for both my own and her arousal over the years. I have joking wondered to myself if she would even know what to do if she had to be in charge and take responsibility for all of that. So I allowed it to happen and was curious to see what would happen.

Well things went spectacularly. My wife even commented that she enjoyed getting me in the mood knowing that initially I was not.

This got me to thinking. My wife does not like to feel as if I am over controlling in our relationship when it comes to intimacy. This represents a moment where she took the initiative and was the one in control and responsible for creating pleasure for the two of us.

Hopefully this marks an improvement that she is building the confidence to become more of an initiator. As I reflect on this, I am probably to blame for this as maybe she has tried to initiate but I failed to recognize it. Her ways are extremely subtle and I often just don't get it when it comes to how she "hints" at things. Historically she has often offered me a one-side experience when she was not in the mood and I have rejected those in favor of being patient for a moment when we are both in the mood. While that is somewhat of a catch-22, turning her down in those moments may have added to her anxiety to initiate. The times I would take her up on it, her attitude afterwards would always be, "OK I'm done pleasing you, so can you leave me alone about sex for a while?" Now we can look back and see how we both had our faults and try to begin acknowledging those and work together towards improving it.

Regards,
Badsanta


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

badsanta said:


> ...I'll add an update here.
> 
> Recently my wife initiated when I was not in the mood. She commented that she wanted to get me in the mood. This is something that has not happened regarding allowing my wife to take responsibility for my arousal. I'll admit that I harbor resentment in this area because I feel that it has been a burden for me to take responsibility for both my own and her arousal over the years. I have joking wondered to myself if she would even know what to do if she had to be in charge and take responsibility for all of that. So I allowed it to happen and was curious to see what would happen.
> 
> ...


At least she initiated. I can't recall the last time my wife did as its been years...many years.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Revisiting this thread...
> 
> So after my wife has finally done some reading and understands how to read the signals from her own body (as opposed to ignoring them), she has finally been the one to start initiating things.
> 
> ...


that's a good one. Maybe she has found that website Bad Grils Bible? ....great source of info and advise, run by sex coach...

this is really great and unusual change. Good luck to you, @badsanta !


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> that's a good one. Maybe she has found that website Bad Grils Bible? ....great source of info and advise, run by sex coach...
> 
> this is really great and unusual change. Good luck to you, @badsanta !


I'll have to check that out!


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