# The definitive Alpha/Beta thread



## IH8theFriendZone (Mar 14, 2011)

Hello all...I'm taking on a huge task. As a beta looking to become more alpha, and in the process, establish myself as the Gamma, I've compiled my own list of alpha/beta traits based on things I've read here and over at marriedmansexlife.com. Here is what I have so far:









EDIT: USE THIS CHART ONLY AS A REFERENCE TO WHAT ALPHA AND NOT ALPHA ARE, NOT ALPHA AND BETA...ATHOLKS CHARTS BELOW ARE PERFECT.

What I hope to accomplish is not only listing other traits of each I may have missed, but I need to somehow place these traits into a series of categories (like "personal," [such as very physically fit, sharply dressed, leader, mysterious, and things that pertain to him alone) "relational," (confident, in control of emotions, and things that pertain to him and his significant other) and "professional" (competitive, hard working, solid planner, and things that pertain to social status or career). Those categories are just an example...maybe you guys can think of something else. 
Then what I hope to do is create some kind of flow chart or something that can serve as a LOOSE tool to gauge, "OK...based on my traits, I need to add X, Y, and Z in order to become more Gamma"
I do believe (as does the author of marriedmansexlife.com) that if you're beta, the thing to do is add more alpha, not subtract from your beta traits. Like he said...it isn't:
TOO ALPHA{--------------------------------}TOO BETA
but rather:
NO ALPHA{----------------------------------}ALPHA
NO BETA{-----------------------------------}BETA
with the Gamma male having the right amount of each alpha and beta in general and being able to adjust for a given situation.
Thoughts?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

My thought is that your Alpha is purely good while your Beta is purely bad. Who would want to be anywhere but on the extreme of Alpha according to your chart?


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## IH8theFriendZone (Mar 14, 2011)

Trenton said:


> My thought is that your Alpha is purely good while your Beta is purely bad. Who would want to be anywhere but on the extreme of Alpha according to your chart?


Excellent point. I'll adjust. Maybe the thing to do is actually a list of good alpha traits and bad alpha traits along side a list of good beta traits and bad beta traits.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

IH8theFriendZone said:


> Maybe the thing to do is actually a list of good alpha traits and bad alpha traits along side a list of good beta traits and bad beta traits.


Absolutely! 

I can tell you that my husband is decently beta and when I read things like this -these comparisons, especially the way you have your beta list - it often assults my senses & I want to stick up for beta men more so. 

My husband is not a slob, not a muscle builder but in decent shape, he doesn't need reassured, I wish he put more out in the open, he is NOT overly emotional with wide mood swings at all , he doesn't "ask" for sex, he is surely not lazy, but a faithful hard working employee & handy man of many skills. 

I would love to help you explore some of the good & bad about both. I just want to say, there is alot of GOOD to beta men, we should not miss this.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Hi there,

I think your lists have a slight confusion. You have an Alpha list that is dead on, but you have a Beta list that would be much better labeled as "Not Alpha". I see the Beta Traits as being a completely separate set of things designed to build comfort in a relationship.

Not Alpha =/= Beta

Stealing my own post material... from Married Man Sex Life: What's Alpha and Beta... For A Woman? Part 2

_"I think it spells it out fairly well, the only thing I have to add (again!) is that in my framework the Alpha traits evoke a dopamine response in the opposite sex, while the Beta traits evoke a Oxytocin / Vasopressin response in the opposite sex.

Alpha = attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement
Beta = comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment"_



















This post may be helpful as well. Married Man Sex Life: Be Both Alpha And Beta: The Journey Is The Reward


Also my most important post on Alpha/Beta issues is this one... Married Man Sex Life: A Little More On Alpha and Beta Male Traits

The book is out in about two weeks as well. :smthumbup:


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Atholk, 

Thank you for your chart. 

My husband and I are both on the right side. Everything!

What does that mean? We are both Alpha and Beta?


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

greenpearl said:


> Atholk,
> 
> Thank you for your chart.
> 
> ...


Yes.

Alpha and Beta are not opposites. They are two separate sets of traits.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Atholk said:


> Yes.
> 
> Alpha and Beta are not opposites. They are two separate sets of traits.


Atholk,

I was confused for a long time about this alpha/beta thing, I thought they were opposite! I thought they mean strong/weak!

Look at your chart, everything on the right side is important for a healthy happy marriage. 

Thank you for explaining this!


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## IH8theFriendZone (Mar 14, 2011)

Atholk,
I got a lot of the info from my list off your site (thank you for that, BTW...LOVE the site!). And I think you're right on. But what I realize I did was list the alpha traits I aspire to have and the beta traits I see in myself that I LOATHE (although the list I posted does not encapsulate me...I have some of the alpha traits, but not enough...or the ones I have are not in sufficient individual quantity; likewise, I don't possess all the beta traits on my list either -- but overall, I have a tremendous amount of beta and not nearly enough alpha...and not so predictably, my wife has become bored with me and sexually/emotionally disinterested).
All I was really trying to do was sum up the basics of your alpha/beta articles into a chart that I could use to examine myself to see, not where I'm too beta, but rather, where I'm not alpha enough...then up the alpha to become Jean Luc Picard/GAMMA.
Appreciate your post! And your website!


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

I think its still at a level that simplifies it a little too much to be something to use to get there.

Seems that I was always told that I was alpha, but I wanted to be a nice guy type. So, maybe you agree, or don't, but I'd like to offer a few insights into how I view the world, and you can tell me if I'm really more like a beta. (Wow - I'm sorry for the arrogance here)

In many cases, the emotion that I often feel is impatience. Not a short tempered impatience. When I see a guy or woman leading a meeting or training class, and they are not hitting the points correctly, or not winning the crowd, I would start getting annoyed if I can't just take control and get the crowd where they need to be. Still, if I don't know the subject, I'll just leave, because I don't like the experience.

If a person is winning the crowd and leading them correctly, and it is not threatening my goals, or the goals of someone I am loyal to, I'll let them have the reigns. If it is threatening, then it becomes a competition.

I guess - in reading this - that there is a certain arrogance there, but I am a harsh critic of myself. If I see a weakness, I will attack it through learning. Always learning new things. Always keep the body trained and ready.

Secondly, being alpha is about winning people's support. Jerks make inneffective alphas. If my insurance denies a big claim, I don't just start yelling. I'll become their best pal and make them see that they are being pretty stupid about the whole thing. I've built consensus with the state insurance agency, and my corporate HR contract manager first. The insurance agent becomes the odd man out.

Most importantly, the two often overlap, but it can be learned. Confidence teaches being an alpha type. I had a manager who put me on the spot time and time again, and helped me see life as a series of steps to my goal.

Lastly, deep down, we are afraid that the betas have it all figured out in the interpersonal realm. Maybe we get the wife we're going after, but they get the good hearted ones.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Personally would like to add that Atholk's links are excellent, in my opinion. Ultimately, my therapist referred me to one that handles alot of the alpha types in the huge company I work for, because ome of my personal issues are on the opposite extreme as many people. My wife became so dependent on me to keep things upbeat that she gets really afraid when I'm sick or something. She bails. I really try hard not to dominate, and she agrees that I am a gentle person, but I would be in heaven if she ever was comfortable enough to be the strong one when I'm down. 

For years, when my sister in law visits, her first comment when she hugs is to take a deep breath and say "Ah, the smell of testosterone."


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

IH8theFriendZone said:


> Atholk,
> All I was really trying to do was sum up the basics of your alpha/beta articles into a chart that I could use to examine myself to see, not where I'm too beta, but rather, where I'm not alpha enough...then up the alpha to become Jean Luc Picard/GAMMA.
> Appreciate your post! And your website!


The book is nearly done. 315 pages at present and checking over the proof copies. Should be enough for you to work with


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Wow - a book !? Is this your 1st, 2nd, 3rd? 

Much better list !!  IF these traits are completely separate- each having there good & bad, why is so darn much emphasis put on being ALPHA - 90% of the posts by men paint beta as ALL weaknesses. 

I am happy to finally see this is not being done here. 

I suppose I know the answer to my own question >>> 99% of the problems on this forum are SEX related when this subject is brought up & it is all about what arouses a Sexual response from women. 

It does appear many women will leave the faithful good provider (the good beta) to jump in the sack with even the BAD ALPHA though, someone not so faithful , maybe even still living on a shoestring - but oh if he has some of that "mystery" going on, they are pulled in. 

I suppose all men can be leaders in their HOME, but not everyone can be this in society, or we would be killing each other off. We all have different roles to play- and they all have value. 

An introverted Beta Melencholy working behind the scenes to pen an inspiring Drama screen play IS JUST AS IMPORTANT as the Alpha confident actor who plays the leading role - and women fall at his feet. Personally, I wouldnt want the man everyone else wanted, too much RISK there. Too much temptation. Not my cup of tea. I prefer a behind the scenes type man. 

Just as we are born with different temperments (Sanguine, Chloleric , Menancholic & Phlegmatic) & personality types (introverted & Extroverted), each having amazing strenghts but also pathetic "relationship wrecking" weaknesses. 

We need to study these things, tweek them & overcome to be the BEST Introvert or Extrovert we can in life. I do not believe Introverts gain anything by striving to be Extroverts - we R what we are. Introvert or Extrovert: Can You Change? - thatsfit.ca

Where it may not be such an easy road for some introverted "good" Beta phlegmatics in the bedroom (this would be my husband mind you) , just as it may be difficult for the Extroverted strong willed -even cruel Choleric types to achieve some of the more "sensitive" GOOD beta traits. 

It is a struggle for all. But Yes, so worth the effort to make ourselves the MOST confident Lover with our spouses. 

I will most likely buy your book, this subject still has a way of getting under my skin at times the way it is presented , maybe I have not fully grasped the final truth of it --YET.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Wow - a book !? Is this your 1st, 2nd, 3rd?
> 
> Much better list !!  IF these traits are completely separate- each having there good & bad, why is so darn much emphasis put on being ALPHA - 90% of the posts by men paint beta as ALL weaknesses.


First book.

The Alpha emphasis comes from the way so many men give up the Alpha stuff and only do Beta stuff once they are married for a few years. So for 90% of the men out there, the Alpha approach supplies the balance they need to balance out their Alpha and Beta.

Also there is a huge internet community of mostly men from the Seduction / Pickup Artist / Game writers that advance the Alpha stuff as good and the Beta stuff as bad. So that tends to flow over here a little bit too.

I write specifically for marriage and clearly the Beta goodies have a real benefit and purpose in the context of marriage. So I am advancing a serious variant to the entire Pickup community online.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Will you give us a discount? 

I want a copy too!!!


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## IH8theFriendZone (Mar 14, 2011)

What's the book going to be called? I'm going to want to get a copy.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Atholk said:


> The Alpha emphasis comes from the way so many men give up the Alpha stuff and only do Beta stuff once they are married for a few years. So for 90% of the men out there, the Alpha approach supplies the balance they need to balance out their Alpha and Beta.


 You are very right here. :iagree: Women do this just as much, quit worrying about their looks, become complacent, predictable, mundane, boring. I LOVE the fact you used Dopamine/HORMONES in your explaining these things. 

Although MY husband has not changed hardly any since I met him -he was never the dominant girl chasing flirty aggressive type. More the shy horny reserved calm loving type. This is why I KNOW I am beating a dead horse to think he can change into this Alpha tyrannosaurus rex Hot stud with all the right moves & lines. Our expectations, given one's temperment, need to be grounded in some reality. 



Atholk said:


> Also there is a huge internet community of mostly men from the Seduction / Pickup Artist / Game writers that advance the Alpha stuff as good and the Beta stuff as bad. So that tends to flow over here a little bit too.


Thank you for shedding light on this! Just like anything else in life , we will always have "extremists" among us who warp the balance of a good thing. I am just speculating of coarse, but assume these books encourage men to become A-holes all in pursuit of getting laid - but their women are still wanting MORE from them in these others very important beta areas, such relationships will not be built on a firm loving foundation, resulting in many suffering women & iniflated egotistical men. 

I think of this quote by "Big Bear" on one of Trentons threads ....


> I always kinda thought that women would say they want the night in shining armor, then when he shows up she waives him on because her ex wants her back and this time his band will really make it and he can move out of moms house before his 35th birthday. My solution to this is to be the night in shining armor and ride BY the womans house. Tell her you are on the way to rescue the most fair maiden in all the land. She will weld herself to you and shoot the horse in the head all in under three seconds.


That was so funny :rofl: But we can't deny it's truth. 


I HOPE your book will bring this NEEDED balance. I visit a variety of forums, constantly giving links to books I praise & respect, so if I like yours, you will get alot of free publicity from little me. 



Atholk said:


> I write specifically for marriage and clearly the Beta goodies have a real benefit and purpose in the context of marriage. So I am advancing a serious variant to the entire Pickup community online.


 Slay them! Bring forth the truth. Love it!


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

Here's another tiny example of alpha behavior and how it works on a deep subconscious level.

My GF is super, super sweet. I could go on and on, but that sets the stage well enough.

One time the other day when I leaned in to kiss her, I stopped a couple of inches short and made her come to me. She did, of course.

THE NEXT DAY she leaned in to kiss me, and stopped a couple of inches short with the tiniest smile. I retreated a couple of inches, and she followed me with a HUGE smile.

I promise that she didn't realize consciously what I'd done the first day. It was one kiss of many. She also wasn't consciously aware of her test the next day or that I'd forced her to follow (passed the test). She just knew that she really liked kissing me.

So here's another one for your book/table:

Not Alpha : needy
Alpha : confident that they'll come to you


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## frustated (Jun 24, 2011)

Atholk said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I think your lists have a slight confusion. You have an Alpha list that is dead on, but you have a Beta list that would be much better labeled as "Not Alpha". I see the Beta Traits as being a completely separate set of things designed to build comfort in a relationship.
> 
> ...


Just finished your book and wanted to thank you, I have been applying what i have learned. I have a new peep in my step! I find myself smiling at women and them smiling back. I definitively feel like I have a plan to follow and the confidence is back. Applying a little lost alfa at home is already gaining me results. I want to be a better man and if she still don't come around, well the book explains that too. Thanks again.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Important to keep in mind that there are plenty of variants on success, passing, or redefining how you behave.

That kiss scenario is nice little example. As for her stopping short and waiting for her to come to you?
Slipping your hand behind her neck, pulling her to you rolling her over and kissing her for 10 seconds is a 'Win' as well.



OOE said:


> Here's another tiny example of alpha behavior and how it works on a deep subconscious level.
> 
> My GF is super, super sweet. I could go on and on, but that sets the stage well enough.
> 
> ...


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## Dylan (Jul 1, 2011)

IH8theFriendZone said:


>


i'm confused about this because my husband is a mix on some things but he's all alpha on other things.
his alpha traits are physically fit,leader,hard worker,works to acquire skillsets,very competitive
he's in control of his emotions without moodswings but he does get choked up easier than men i've been with in the past
he asks for sex but when he's with me he's always all over me grabbing my butt and breasts and kissing me before asking for sex.
he's confident about his professional life and but then he seems to need a lot of reassurance from me.
he wants to dress sharp but looks for me to guide him on what's fashionable or what looks good.
he's mysterious sometimes but then he overshares and tells me about every single thing.
in bed he's always making sure i feel good and making sure he's not hurting me.there have been times when he couldn't finish for fear i wasn't ok with what he was doing.

this really helps me see the areas of trouble for why i feel lukewarm toward him.i don't want a domeheaded caveman but maybe he isn't manly enough?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Keep in mind that the table you are referencing posits that Alpha is good, and Beta is bad. You can see it simply in how they are worded.

There are distinct positives to both, and in fact to nurture a healthy relationship, a man NEEDS both.

The core issue that comes up frequently is that most guys abandon Alpha altogether after being married or in a 'settled' relationship for a long time.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dylan,
I was the same. My W gradually helped me "shape" my behavior towards her. This is simply what "works" the whole notion of what "should be" is not relevant. This is what "is" and since I love the whole package, I am comfortable making these accommodations to have a very happy marriage. Here's the short list YMMV:

1. When she is really wound up/angry about something, it is helpful for me to either be angry or simulate enough anger that she feels validated. As for stuff that makes ME angry, most of it is not really worth being angry about. Most of it DOES warrant a firm, consequence based response. That works well towards her and others. She likes and respects a low affect, determined and focused solution driven approach. 

2. In general being "lower" affect than she is produces a very positive result. I am naturally happy/upbeat and that doesn't get filtered. Fear, insecurity and doubt are expressed with light humor "in the moment" or in the form of an honest story "after"
I have resolved the situation. If I need her help with something I am calm and specific about what I need. 

3. High intensity "I am so in love with you" comments make her anxious UNLESS she has initiated them. When she does, I respond in kind. She LOVES that. She reacts badly to me being emotionally "warmer" than she is. 

4. When she is melting down about something I am calm and empathetic. I listen and support. I do NOT try to "solve her problem". When she is finished talking I simply ask "Is there anything I can do"? That's it. One simple question. If she asks for something specific, I say sure and then do it. She does not melt down frequently and is NOT a chronic complainer / whiner / nit picker towards life or towards me. 

5. When I melt down - my threshold for this is VERY high - I keep it short as possible. 

6. She LIKES a certain amount of conflict. I have learned to provide her with a steady stream via playful banter and wrestling.  Well I wrestle, she does more of an MMA style of combat. I protect my b*lls and she leaves my eyes alone. Sometimes she pushes the edge of the envelope and gets spanked. For someone who swears they don't like being spanked, she sure does a lot of things she KNOWS will produce that outcome. 

7. When she hurts my feelings - which is not often - the LAST THING ON EARTH I would ever say is "that hurt my feelings". Instead she gets a calm, firm and very short (mostly body language and tone of voice) response that conveys I didn't like her behavior. Sometimes she WANTS a real fight so she escalates. What she GETS then is a very sharp tone of voice and as many days as she wants of friendly/polite non-interaction. None of the standard hugs/ILY's when I leave the house. Conversation is limited to kids and schedules. Typically that lasts 1-3 days after which she will approach to "resolve" which is typically but not always an apology from her side. When I was "part" of the problem I apologize for my bit. The transition from VERY cold, to complete resolution is sub one hour and is followed by hot makeup sex and a resumption of normalcy as if nothing had happened. 

8. Sex: Deep sigh. She has always made our sex life good to great. Mostly great. I prefer 'gentle' loving sex. She prefers caveman/borderline sociopath sex. This is simply a situation where I have learned to compartmentalize. I shed 40+ years of conditioning and give her what she wishes. Frankly I am certain that I am not quite as rough/aggressive as she would like. This is the one piece of the puzzle that comes the least naturally to me. 

9. Sad movies, memories that cause me deep grief. These get handled the same way. I detach from the emotion and don't show much outward reaction. 

10. I proactively schedule fun stuff for us. She can come or not as she chooses. If she doesn't want to come, I find a friend. Usually when she realizes I am going to go without her she decides she wants to come. 

11. She is full of mischief and frequentrly tests my boundaries. I have learned to excel at boundary enforcement. Mostly playful, sometimes physical - wrestling

Ultimately she has a strong sense of fairness and a great sense of humor about herself. Killler combo. Makes the rest of this stuff less tiresome. 






Dylan said:


> i'm confused about this because my husband is a mix on some things but he's all alpha on other things.
> his alpha traits are physically fit,leader,hard worker,works to acquire skillsets,very competitive
> he's in control of his emotions without moodswings but he does get choked up easier than men i've been with in the past
> he asks for sex but when he's with me he's always all over me grabbing my butt and breasts and kissing me before asking for sex.
> ...


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