# Gender biases and misogyny



## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Lots of discussion lately over how men seem to be getting treated pretty badly. Thought I'd throw this out there and see if it interests anyone.

*From an article on a website A Voice For Men:*

The inflated definition of misogyny | A Voice for Men

_The issues most feminists today complain about, are normal issues that happen to many people and are not gender based. Mainstream misogyny is very rare in today’s society, and if it ever occurs, people will know about it, report it immediately and it will be gotten rid of as soon as possible.

So, what are some examples of what feminists consider misogyny?

If a man is chosen over a woman for a job, it’s considered misogyny;
If a woman or girl doesn’t get taken seriously, it’s considered misogyny;
If a woman or girl is not given complete control over her choices in life, it’s considered misogyny;
If violence is inflicted against a woman or girl, it’s considered misogyny;
If a female boss is not respected properly, it’s considered misogyny;
If a woman or girl is falling behind in a class, it’s considered misogyny on the part of the education system;
If a woman or girl is not given proper health care, it’s considered misogyny;
If a woman or girl is poor or suffering financial stress, it’s considered misogyny;
If a woman or girl gets in trouble for a reason she disagrees with, it’s considered misogyny;
If a woman or girl in general is suffering, it’s considered misogyny.
Now, despite what feminists claim, these issues are not misogyny, because they are not gender issues. These issues happen to everyone, not just women and girls. Men and boys suffer from them as much, a lot of the time even more so. It has nothing to do with gender discrimination.

People get chosen for jobs over other people;
People don’t always get taken as seriously as they should;
People aren’t always given complete control over their choices in life, and may be restricted for financial, health and/or other reasons;
People suffer violence;
Bosses and people in power are not always respected the way they should be, regardless of gender;
People often fall behind in classes;
People are not always given the proper health care they need or deserve;
People suffer financial problems;
People get in trouble for improper reasons, or at least what they consider improper;
People in general suffer.
…but if one of those people are female, feminists immediately blame it on discrimination. Most of the problems feminists call misogyny are simple human issues that effect both genders. As has been demonstrated, feminists are not after equality. What they really want, by making these claims, is to change it so that only men ever suffer from these normal issues.

An example of this is how feminists continuously try to classify domestic violence (and in some cases, even violence in general) as a form of gender discrimination. Men can be victims of domestic violence too, so domestic violence is a violence issue, not a gender issue._

*And a follow up on the gender biases involving domestic violence:*

Reaction To Women Abusing Men In Public - YouTube

*Comments?*


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

I think this has a lot of truth to it. Though some forms of feminism are fine, I do have a problem with the version that claims anything that happens to a woman is by default a result of sexism or bias by men. I like the video too but I think that the difference in treatment may have a lot of different reasons, so that one is tougher to call.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Good points to consider. I have had many disappointments in my life, that I cannot rationalize eaasily. If I had some thought of prejudice I would probably blame it on that.


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## HazelGrove (Feb 29, 2012)

Misogyny is alive and well. There are still many issues, even though some have been laid to rest (I hope!) As a professional woman, I've encountered some of them, and seen them directed at other women. I don't think they are issues that are faced equally by both genders. 

What I do see, however, is that there are some men who are considered 'soft' by other men, and they also suffer from misogyny. Yes, I call it misogyny, because it is their feminine side that is being punished. 

I also see women who are strong, and their strength is punished, and they are called ball-breakers. Many men fear strong women and try and undermine them. 


At the end of the day, figures speak. And the figures are clear: women still don't earn as much, nor are they promoted as highly, as men - overall. There are fewer women in most industries, and in politics, than there are men. There are fewer women as leaders. These are facts. We all have anecdotes about a woman CEO and a male being passed over by a worse woman. But anecdotes are just that - they don't give us trends. The trend of women rising to the top is still incredibly slow. 

Lately, I have seen an alarming rise in anti-women sentiments and policies across the Western World, starting with the US. So it's never time to relax and say, "it's ok, sisters, we don't have to worry anymore." There are places in the Western World where I am not mistress of my own body! That is shocking. As was seeing a panel of men talking about female contraceptives in the US congress, as they might have in the 1950s. 

So when people say misogyny is dead, I laugh. It is not dead. It is reviving. I look through some of the threads on this forum, and see insulting comments about men who stay home with the children and their women who go out to work. As long as these comments exist, misogyny exists - against women, and against men who express their feminine side.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

It’s a madness ….

_The EU will today unveil plans to force companies to put more women in their boardrooms.

European justice commissioner Viviane Reding will announce the first step toward legal targets for the minimum number of females in top jobs._

EU wants law to enforce minimum quotas for women in the boardroom | Mail Online




It usually amounts to a dumbing down when forced in these ways.


.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

HazelGrove said:


> At the end of the day, figures speak. And the figures are clear: women still don't earn as much, nor are they promoted as highly, as men - overall. There are fewer women in most industries, and in politics, than there are men. There are fewer women as leaders. These are facts. We all have anecdotes about a woman CEO and a male being passed over by a worse woman. But anecdotes are just that - they don't give us trends. The trend of women rising to the top is still incredibly slow.


What do these figure's say and why do they say that? Is misogyny the only explanation?

60% of college degrees are earned by women, yet some posters here were quick to point to all types of reasons why this was not a problem, becuase men just made different choices. Why would that not equally apply to women in the figures you note?

I am not going to pretend that misogyny is dead, but it is not clear to me that the hate of women is the only reason for what you describe.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

HazelGrove said:


> Misogyny is alive and well. There are still many issues, even though some have been laid to rest (I hope!) As a professional woman, I've encountered some of them, and seen them directed at other women. I don't think they are issues that are faced equally by both genders.
> 
> What I do see, however, is that there are some men who are considered 'soft' by other men, and they also suffer from misogyny. Yes, I call it misogyny, because it is their feminine side that is being punished.
> 
> ...


Would you push the misogyny alarm bell when a "strong" woman is contemptuous of a male's feminine side or would you describe that as a natural reaction to someone who is acting weakly?

Women are outperforming men in education right now. Is that now just the normal and acceptable state of a pure meritocracy or is that sign of recent female-centric male hating educational reforms? 


Some feminists use the term misogyny in lieu of reason or argument. It is an ad hominem argument that is for some reason is given credibility as if it does not demand a thorough justification. In other words, "we don't simply disagree on this policy issue, you HATE women. And as a misogynist, there is little to distinguish you from a rapist or any other abuser of women."

If you think the latter is an exaggeration wasn't it McKinnon who equated marital sex with rape?

The term is intended to shut down argument and claim the moral high ground on issues claimed by feminists. If you are labelled a misogynist what is the appropriate reaction? 

I think people who argue against abortion or the pill on religious grounds are just about as wrong as you get. I give no credit to that argument whatsoever. I think it is even ridiculous theology for those who believe in the kind of God imagined by Western religions. But those who believe that a "soul" is created at conception are not necessarily deserving of the label misogynist.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Trenton said:


> I think the same holds true for feminism.


If you mean some people toss around like "feminism" as if it were a a curse word and a uniform philosophy, then I completely agree.

I personally would much rather live in a world of gender equality than not, but there will be disagreements over the specifics of what gender equality looks like and that doesn't mean the opposing side on a particular issue is evil or hate filled.


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

Trenton said:


> I find irony in your first comment...
> 
> "Lots of discussion lately over how men seem to be getting treated pretty badly."
> 
> ...


The problem with your argument is exactly what the OP was noting as being stated in those articles. A man can want more sex from his wife, causing those who advise him to criticize her, without it being misogyny. One can criticize "the woman" without it being misogyny. One can promote a man over a woman without it being misogyny. The things you noted as happening on TAM could have happened just as you say but without it being misogyny, though you labeled it as such. Anyway, problems labeled feminism (as you put it) are labeled that way by men because they are put forward by feminist groups. I think if there was a group marching around calling themselves followers of "misogynism" you'd have the right to criticize their ideas as misogynistic. When the OP refers to men being treated badly, it does come after many decades of actions by groups claiming to represent all women (thus the name) and doing things to the detriment of men (who cannot react without being labeled misogynistic).


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## mr.miketastic (Aug 5, 2010)

Trenton said:


> I find irony in your first comment...
> 
> "Lots of discussion lately over how men seem to be getting treated pretty badly."
> 
> ...


Actually, what I see is when a man comes here with the ALL too common complaint of little to no sex, I see men and women here alike asking the man what he did, or what he is not doing. I can't say it's all the woman's fault, but is not always the man's fault either.


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## Stryker (Feb 3, 2012)

Broncos Fan said:


> The problem with your argument is exactly what the OP was noting as being stated in those articles. A man can want more sex from his wife, causing those who advise him to criticize her, without it being misogyny. One can criticize "the woman" without it being misogyny. One can promote a man over a woman without it being misogyny. The things you noted as happening on TAM could have happened just as you say but without it being misogyny, though you labeled it as such. Anyway, problems labeled feminism (as you put it) are labeled that way by men because they are put forward by feminist groups. I think if there was a group marching around calling themselves followers of "misogynism" you'd have the right to criticize their ideas as misogynistic. When the OP refers to men being treated badly, it does come after many decades of actions by groups claiming to represent all women (thus the name) and doing things to the detriment of men (who cannot react without being labeled misogynistic).


---Apt and Realistic...Unbiased..


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

The fact that gender bias works against men in a handful (if even) of situations should help men understand why they need to protect and assist their wives and daughters from the constant onslaught of bias against women.

I can't help but notice that the current proliferation of single female headed households has created a financial boon for all those who profit by overcharging/over-serving women. There seems to be a lot of economic incentive in this trend


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

I've always found it strange that when women abuse men it's considered comical in a way, especially physical abuse.


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## Stryker (Feb 3, 2012)

The Fundamental Existence Modes in the "Make Up" of a Male Human and that of Female Human, should give a clear picture ..

that

*Men are not Equal to Women and Women are not equal to Men..*.

and

*There are Good and Bad among both.*.

Feminists have a blinded ,distorted,myopic,ignorant and crappy view in their allegations on Men in General...causing troubles to Men and even Women genres too..and basking in their Folly...


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## Stryker (Feb 3, 2012)

Complexity said:


> I've always found it strange that when women abuse men it's considered comical in a way, especially physical abuse.


A Man kills a Woman = Tragedy,Villain and Murder...?

A Woman kills a Man = Comedy,Heroine and Mata Hari or perhaps Madonna..?


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Stryker said:


> Feminists have a blinded ,distorted,myopic,ignorant and crappy view in their allegations on Men in General...causing troubles to Men and even Women genres too..and basking in their Folly...


This would be an example of "feminism" as curse word. 

You give the radical feminists too much credit and other self-described feminists too little.


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## Stryker (Feb 3, 2012)

Lionelhutz said:


> This would be an example of "feminism" as curse word.
> 
> You give the radical feminists too much credit and other self-described feminists too little.



Hmmm...there you go...!!Do we humans Men or Women, even need to care for any kind of Feminism.or any such "biased -gender body- building"..??


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

HazelGrove said:


> Misogyny is alive and well. There are still many issues, even though some have been laid to rest (I hope!) As a professional woman, I've encountered some of them, and seen them directed at other women. I don't think they are issues that are faced equally by both genders.
> 
> What I do see, however, is that there are some men who are considered 'soft' by other men, and they also suffer from misogyny. Yes, I call it misogyny, because it is their feminine side that is being punished.
> 
> ...


Yes indeed. The Western World is holding back women's rights.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Stryker said:


> Hmmm...there you go...!!Do we humans Men or Women, even need to care for any kind of Feminism.or any such "biased -gender body- building"..??


Insofar as it is a political movement to combat gender biases specific to women, then yes.

Whether and to what degree it continues to be relevant is a separate debate.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Stryker said:


> A Man kills a Woman = Tragedy,Villain and Murder...?
> 
> A Woman kills a Man = Comedy,Heroine and Mata Hari or perhaps Madonna..?


lol i'm not even going to that extremity. I mean normal physical abuse as with the video beowulf posted. I even found myself smiling, don't know what that says really.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

I think that discrimination does exist for both men and women, and I think true feminism has done a lot to level the playing field between men and women.

Unfortunately, there are different flavors of feminism - so much so that often times a group of feminists could be in a room and be in complete disagreement as to what feminism is... there are some wings of feminism that are about equity and some are about man-hating power trips.

Once you start lumping the groups of feminism together, it distorts the good things that can come from it. Just my .02.


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

Acorn said:


> I think that discrimination does exist for both men and women, and I think true feminism has done a lot to level the playing field between men and women.
> 
> *Unfortunately, there are different flavors of feminism - so much so that often times a group of feminists could be in a room and be in complete disagreement as to what feminism is... there are some wings of feminism that are about equity and some are about man-hating power trips.*
> 
> Once you start lumping the groups of feminism together, it distorts the good things that can come from it. Just my .02.


I agree with you that there are brands of feminism that are good and should be supported by men. I think the problem arises in that it's very rare for the different feminist groups to challenge each other. I've spent plenty of time at work and in other settings like school hearing anti-male bias, then later hear the women present (none of whom spoke up against that male bashing) say that it had nothing to do with "their feminism." If feminism at its best is about equality--and I think it is--then it needs to be willing to challenge those brands that are simply about hatred of men.


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## Stryker (Feb 3, 2012)

Lionelhutz said:


> Insofar as it is a political movement to combat gender biases specific to women, then yes.
> 
> Whether and to what degree it continues to be relevant is a separate debate.



A large number of Men too needs now the 'political" movement( as whatever you call it) , for combating the Tortures,Atrocities and Allegations in the name of "gender biases" or "Women Tortures'...!!

and I am not interested in any debate for degrees of "feminist agenda."or any feminist political crap ...


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## Stryker (Feb 3, 2012)

brands of *feminism*

That shows from where the division and disparity on gender and Real Bias actually comes in these days..


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## Stryker (Feb 3, 2012)

Complexity said:


> lol i'm not even going to that extremity. I mean normal physical abuse as with the video beowulf posted. I even found myself smiling, don't know what that says really.


I was just giving a SERIOUS PIC of what The Feminists are making out in their Comic Discrimination...

and showing How a Killing is a Killing or any Felony , whether it is committed by a Man or a Woman...


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

It's gender discrimination when a woman is denied something b/c she is not a man--not just because a woman is denied something. When we see something being abused (as feminism so often is, by people I generally consider to be undereducated and/or power-hungry), it is best to confront the specific example--so if a woman is denied something and it truly has nothing to do with her being a woman, then point it out.

People with privilege, however, are usually the least able to see it. Lots of studies show that teachers call on boys considerably more than they call on girls, and that they acknowledge boys' contributions more positively than they do girls' comments, etc. It is really hard to see this in one's self, and certainly boys would not think that they have an inherent privilege (in this setting) than girls--but they do (b/c it's more than just being called on--it's the opportunity for direct interaction with the teacher, which tends to lead to more opportunity to learn--more moments of one-on-one exchange, if you will, to summarize a lot of pedagody in a short way). 

But I personally find feminazis and weak feminists (the ones who do not understand that with rights come responsibilities) and anti-feminists to be equally detrimental to equality. I'm just pretty careful to explore what someone is saying before I decide if they are really so opposed to equality, or just trying for a "personal" advantage.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Some quotes by leading feminists. These are all from people who have had influence in society. 



> "Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible . . . females only to . . . destroy the male sex."
> 
> “I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act.”
> 
> ...


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

I think discussions about feminism are 20 years out of date.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Stryker said:


> Feminists have a blinded ,distorted,myopic,ignorant and crappy view in their allegations on Men in General...causing troubles to Men and even Women genres too..and basking in their Folly...


I think you could say extremist...

Christian, Muslims, Conservative, Liberal, Whites, Blacks, and just about sub group of any kind has..."a blinded, distorted, ignorant and crappy view..." of others that don't share their belief system. 

Some people put a big value on being in the right group and are very vocal about defending their rightness against your wrongness. That's just how some people are. It's best to just avoid them.

Making these people representative of the majority of us who are reasonable and tolerant and general supportive of others happiness, is silly.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

seeking sanity said:


> I think discussions about feminism are 20 years out of date.


Actually I think it's more relevant than ever. Whenever you see a television show the man is presented as being ignorant and justifiably manipulated by his wife. Commercials during the Super Bowl blatantly represented men as weak and whiny. Why is that because I do not recall that being the case 5 or even 10 years ago. I'm not necessarily coming out against equality between the sexes by it seems that many women can only envision their equality coming at the expense of men.


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## isla~mama (Feb 1, 2012)

I'm always skeptical when people claim discrimination based on gender or race. It's human nature to blame the faults of your feet on your shoes, instead of facing the fact that your own personal failures or bad choices might have negatively impacted your life. In most of the developed world, women actually have a leg up in many venues precisely because corporations are obsessed with appearing non-discriminatory.

I read an article some time ago that it's actually ugly people-- of both genders-- who are discriminated against when it comes to employment. Overweight and old people too. So if we as a society should rally behind anyone, it should be behind those groups.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

MSP said:


> Some quotes by leading feminists. These are all from people who have had influence in society.


Funny you should mention this. This is a list of basic tenets put forth by various feminist groups.

The destructive logic of radical feminism | A Voice for Men


_Heterosexual relationships and marriage are deemed to be at the root of the Patriarchy, and therefore are shunned by almost all radical feminists.
What radical feminists call PIV (Penis in Vagina) intercourse, or basically all heterosexual sexual activities, are seen as a tool of oppression and violence towards women.
Homosexual relationships are seen as the only route out of their idea of an all encompassing male dominated oppression. (Important: this theory has nothing to do with the rights of LGBT people, and everything to do with literally viewing the male penis as the most oppressive tool of the patriarchy)
As discussed above, radical feminists feel that women are not able to make individual choices for themselves that will enable their liberation from men, until they fully understand the theories of radical feminism. They believe that a normal woman’s agency is an illusion. According to this doctrine, while women think they have choice, any choice they make upholds the Patriarchy.
All forms of prostitution are seen as both violence against women and as an agent of patriarchy and oppression. Hence, why in Sweden, the laws were crafted so prostitution was only a crime a man could commit. Men are seen as the only side of the transaction with real choice, since in radical feminism, women’s individual choice is actually just the choice of her oppressors, and therefore men should be the only party criminally charged.
Almost all spectrum’s of feminism believe that “gender” is learned and not biological in any manner. Transgendered people are seen as deviants, not because they believe it is morally wrong, but because they are either seen as attempting to be a traitor to their sex and join the patriarchy in Female-to-Male cases, or are attempting to infiltrate women only spaces in Male-to-Female cases. It is almost impossible to describe the violent hate that radical feminists have towards transgendered people.
Pornography is seen as violence against women and another tool of oppression. Radical feminists believe pornography is not morally wrong, but rather as a show of male deviancy derived from the Patriarchy. Some Radfem’s do create their own pornography, which is obviously lesbian porn, preformed by feminists for the sole intended use of other feminists.
Any suffering that men incur during their lives is a product of Patriarchy, and is nothing to be mourned. Indeed, many radical feminists have stated that increased suffering in men is a good thing as it may begin to show them how the Patriarchy hurts them too.
In radical feminism, and indeed some more moderate versions of feminism, it is impossible for men to be oppressed. To them, there is no such thing as sexism or bigotry towards men, because men are the ultimate benefactors of privilege, therefore and hatred or animosity towards men simply because of their sex is seen as a positive fight against their oppressors.
Radical feminists believe that there should be no difference as a matter of state law between private lives and public lives. They argue that the Patriarchy continues to oppress women in untold numbers behind closed doors.
Sexual jokes or crude humor, heterosexual scenes played out in the media and even romantic advances toward women by men is seen as violence against women by radical feminists.
As we have seen in the last couple of weeks, some radical feminists believe that the male sex is a biological accident, and that the Y chromosome should be considered a type of defect. (Of course these people ignore the rest of the animal kingdom, and the biological differences between the sexes in other species)
Destruction of the “male” gender (not sex, though many have advocated extermination of the male sex) is seen as the ultimate way to freedom._

I think that this attitude of blatant gender bias has permeated society and gradually altered the way women view their male counterparts, colleagues and men in general.


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## I Know (Dec 14, 2011)

HazelGrove said:


> \
> At the end of the day, figures speak. And the figures are clear: women still don't earn as much, nor are they promoted as highly, as men - overall. There are fewer women in most industries, and in politics, than there are men. There are fewer women as leaders. These are facts. We all have anecdotes about a woman CEO and a male being passed over by a worse woman. But anecdotes are just that - they don't give us trends. The trend of women rising to the top is still incredibly slow.


You can have my extra pay, provided you address this issue:
Tell me, when are the gender equality extremists going to address the fact that men die 7-8 years earlier than women?

Why are we not forming diversity circles to try to increase males life expectancy? Where are the outpourings of support? Where are the government commissions and scientific panels addressing this most ultimate form of gender discrimination? 

I think I'd rather have the 8 years of extra life than the bigger paycheck. Your mileage may vary.


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## Stryker (Feb 3, 2012)

seeking sanity said:


> I think you could say extremist...
> 
> 
> -- They are are Unwanted Titles...whether Extremists or Moderate or Lukewarm or Superficial or whatever Clap Trap Feminism or Feminists !!!
> ...


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I Know said:


> You can have my extra pay, provided you address this issue:
> Tell me, when are the gender equality extremists going to address the fact that men die 7-8 years earlier than women?
> 
> Why are we not forming diversity circles to try to increase males life expectancy? Where are the outpourings of support? Where are the government commissions and scientific panels addressing this most ultimate form of gender discrimination?
> ...


Most scientific health research is conducted on men. The data and results are based on men's bodies and systems. Heart disease and cancer are the biggest. They fund study after study and have since the beginning of such research.

Men's health concerns are in no way under-considered and under-served.


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

Trenton said:


> I didn't believe what I was writing, just trying to show how being completely general misses the point entirely. * Although, since being a misogynist actually means to hate women, it's not a great antonym of feminism and that might be part of the problem in my example*. Many men interpret feminism to mean the hatred of men but it doesn't.
> 
> I'm not sure there is an antonym to feminism and this might be because there's no need for one (yet?) or something else.


Yes, exactly. That's the point here and in the original articles. We're in a society that sees *any* struggle faced by a woman as a result of hatred of women. So no proper reply can be made to said claims, because then that reply itself is hatred of women. That's the trick.

There are in fact antonyms to feminism, and movements those antonyms describe, and they are needed. They just aren't accepted and feminism (in some forms again, not all) just wants those reactions to go away.


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

norajane said:


> Most scientific health research is conducted on men. The data and results are based on men's bodies and systems. Heart disease and cancer are the biggest. They fund study after study and have since the beginning of such research.
> 
> Men's health concerns are in no way under-considered and under-served.



*Should We Pay More Attention to Men's Health?

by Marty Nemko*

Men die six years sooner than women. There are more than four widows for every widower.

So, it would only seem fair that more health research and health education dollars be spent on men than on women. Yet in the budget of every federal health agency, more money is spent on women’s health than on men’s. There are seven federal health agencies specifically for women. Not one for men. 39 of the 50 states have an office of women’s health, only six have one for men. A search of more than 3,000 medical journals listed in Index Medicus found that 23 articles were written on women’s health for each one written on men’s. Although a woman is only 14 percent more likely to die from breast cancer than a man is from prostate cancer, funding for breast cancer research is 660 percent greater than funding for prostate cancer research. Even the post office has gotten into the act: there is only one disease for which you can buy a postage stamp and the profits will go to research to cure the disease: breast cancer, even though heart disease kills millions more men prematurely. Before the age of 65, men die of heart attacks at three times the rate of women.

The bias against men is not limited to government-funded efforts. Even though men die younger and men’s last years are spent in worse health than women’s, most media and private sector attention goes to women’s health: features on menopause on CNN, articles on osteoporosis in the Kaiser Permanente newsletter, and nonstop corporate-sponsored fundraisers for breast cancer: runs for breast cancer, walks for breast cancer, even go to an A’s game for breast cancer. Baseball, a game played by and watched primarily by men, has a Breast Cancer Day, but not a Heart Attack Day, even though millions more people—primarily men—die prematurely of heart disease. Yet when the media pays attention to heart disease, most of it is focused on women, even though women get heart disease long after the average man is dead.

Defenders of the bias offer excuses such as, “Men got most of the research money in the past. Let’s even the score.” The implication is that researchers were interested in making only men healthy. Medical research was done mainly on men because such research was often done on volunteers from prison or the military, the vast majority of whom were men. And in other studies, men were preferred because of fear that unborn babies could be damaged or that menstrual hormonal changes during the study would affect the results. It was believed—and for the most part, it has proven true--that the results of studies using men would be generalizable to women. And did men inadvertently benefit from having been guinea pigs? Men still live six years shorter than women, a gap that, over the past four decades, has decreased by just one year.

Another excuse for the underspending on men’s health is, “Men just need to organize like we women do.” I don’t hear women making that argument to other groups. Could you imagine feminists responding to African-Americans’ concerns about lack of funding with, “Blacks just need to organize like we women do”?

Most often, underspending on men’s health is justified by blaming men themselves for their early demise: “If they only saw their doctor more often.” Fact is, far more potent than doctor visits in staving off the major killers (cardiovascular disease, cancer, and diabetes) are avoiding overweight and not smoking. Yet women, not men, have higher rates of obesity and smoking. Despite that, I have not heard feminists or liberals saying, “It’s women’s own fault. Let’s not fund research on women and heart disease, cancer, and diabetes.” They want ever more money spent on women’s health. Nor do liberals say, “AIDS is caused by careless behavior so we shouldn’t spend money on AIDS.”

Only when straight men are involved, do the liberals sound like conservatives, telling men to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. With women, gays and minorities, the message is, “It takes a village.”
A fair society cannot have it both ways. It either needs to decide to allocate resources based on a group’s deficits or spend in proportion to the population: men 49% and women 51%, minorities 25% and whites 75%, heterosexuals 98% and homosexuals 2%. A double standard that hurts straight men is grossly unfair.


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

Trenton said:


> Are they not accepted or not large enough to be considered? What are those terms? I'm trying to think of them but at a loss.
> 
> I'm not in the same society as you. In my day to day life none of the women I interact with feel that any struggle faced by a woman is a result of hatred of women. None. I'll admit my world is small, but still.
> 
> ...


I like what you're saying here overall. But on the highlighted point above, for example and to illustrate the overall points being discussed here:

I'm in my mid 30s now. When I was in high school, the trend at the time was for women's groups in general and the national group for female academics (forget the name, help me out) in particular to say that girls are constantly short-changed in schools. I think someone else repeated this above in this thread. For years, I had science teachers and others telling me and other boys not to raise our hands in class, because we were "oppressing" the girls to keep them out of science. This was news to my 15-year-old self. Furthermore, if I got an 89% on a physics test, I got a B. A girl with the same score was bumped up to an A, to combat the misogyny inherent in the sciences. When my father complained to the district about this, he was called a misogynist.

These claims of anti-female bias were widely publicized, you can look them up if you don't remember. No one challenged them at the time until Christina Hoff Summers (sp?) finally did after several years. Funding was provided for research, and the new research found that if anything, as you say yourself, boys are short-changed in education. What was the response to this new information, as recently as two years ago? The same group of women academics that had propagated the original claims about the bias against girls funded a campaign specifically to prevent any funding being given to help boys. Their claim (now)? There never had been any gender bias at all. Everything was fine, as long as girls were now ahead (and really had been since two decades before their claims were made). The very group that raised all the to do about girls being short changed now said there was no bias along the lines of gender, to make sure boys wouldn't be given extra help in schools. When I mentioned this in a grad class last year, complete with articles to show what I was talking about, I was called a misogynist. 

I guess we do live in different worlds.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Ugh ... few things in this world are less manly, IMO, than men whining about feminism. Get over it, fellas. Stop playing the victim.

Men live shorter lives? Well, duh. Men are much more likely to engage in risky behavior, abuse drugs and alcohol, choose riskier professions, eat less healthy and act violently. We're also less likely to see a doctor for preventative and acute care.
Any wonder we die sooner?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

FrankKissel said:


> Ugh ... few things in this world are less manly, IMO, than men whining about feminism. Get over it, fellas.
> 
> Men live shorter lives? Well, duh. Men are much more likely to engage in risky behavior, abuse drugs and alcohol, choose riskier professions, eat less healthy and act violently. We're also less likely to see a doctor for preventative and acute care.
> Any wonder we die sooner?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please read the article I posted above, which addresses most of your claims. At any rate, the point is not to "whine about feminism" but to discuss such issues that will affect my future children (whatever their gender), without being labeled misogynistic. Sorry for being unmanly.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Broncos Fan said:


> Please read the article I posted above, which addresses most of your claims. At any rate, the point is not to "whine about feminism" but to discuss such issues that will affect my future children (whatever their gender), without being labeled misogynistic. Sorry for being unmanly.


Do you realize how silly it sounds to claim society discriminates against men when we hold majorities - often large majorities - of every wing of every government of note, the large majority of every corporate board seat, the large majority of CEO positions, the large majority of high-ranking positions in education (college presidents, school superintendents), the military, the entertainment industry, the medical profession, law enforcement, and so on and so forth.

If men are getting the short end of the stick, don't blame feminism. Blame men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

FrankKissel said:


> Do you realize how silly it sounds to claim society discriminates against men when we hold majorities - often large majorities - of every wing of every government of note, the large majority of every corporate board seat, the large majority of CEO positions, the large majority of high-ranking positions in education (college presidents, school superintendents), the military, the entertainment industry, the medical profession, law enforcement, and so on and so forth.
> 
> If men are getting the short end of the stick, don't blame feminism. Blame men.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First, no one is blaming "feminism." My first post on this thread distinguished between good forms of feminism (most) and the one criticized here, that claims anything bad that happens to women is a result of hatred of women. 

Second, the differences between men and women in our society occur at the bottom of the ladder, not the top. Men hold the positions you note because men at the top of our society haven't changed position relative to women. Upper middle class and upper class men still hold solid leads over the women of the same classes. Instead, the areas in which men are falling behind are those that have to do with working class and minority people. If you eliminate minority men from the stats on education for example, men remain solidly in the lead. None of this has anything to do with me or my interests in "whining." It's about not turning an entire generation of working class and minority men out into the street then claiming it's okay because it helps women, to the great detriment of our society as a whole.

But all that aside, refer to my first point. This is about being able to discuss gender issues from various perspectives without labeling men "misogynist." It's not about condemning feminism or feminists or women in general.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

I Know said:


> You can have my extra pay, provided you address this issue:
> Tell me, when are the gender equality extremists going to address the fact that men die 7-8 years earlier than women?
> 
> 
> I think I'd rather have the 8 years of extra life than the bigger paycheck. Your mileage may vary.


Are you serious?

The bad news is that most of what people think of the gain in longevity mostly has to do with the reduction in death among the young. The life expectancy of a 70 year old now is only a little bit better than it was in 1900. 

The highest suicide risk is an 80 year old man. I would take another decade between 20 and 30 but not between 70 and 80


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Do you realize how silly it sounds to claim society discriminates against men when we hold majorities - often large majorities - of every wing of every government of note, the large majority of every corporate board seat, the large majority of CEO positions, the large majority of high-ranking positions in education (college presidents, school superintendents), the military, the entertainment industry, the medical profession, law enforcement, and so on and so forth.
> 
> If men are getting the short end of the stick, don't blame feminism. Blame men.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


With women getting 60% of the college degrees, it is not clear that these majorities will last long.


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> With women getting 60% of the college degrees, it is not clear that these majorities will last long.


I think they'll last, for the reasons I stated above. Men are doing just fine if not better than women at the top levels. It's working class and minority men not doing well that skews the national averages. The elites live pretty much as they always have, despite all the talk about things being different now. Marriage even is becoming something for the haves, while the have-nots end up divorced, or more likely don't even try.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Feminism has done more to destroy families than the black plague.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Complexity said:


> I've always found it strange that when women abuse men it's considered comical in a way, especially physical abuse.


Who consideres it comical?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Broncos Fan said:


> I think they'll last, for the reasons I stated above. Men are doing just fine if not better than women at the top levels. It's working class and minority men not doing well that skews the national averages. The elites live pretty much as they always have, despite all the talk about things being different now. Marriage even is becoming something for the haves, while the have-nots end up divorced, or more likely don't even try.


I don't. I don't think it will get to the place where women make up 90% or anything, but I do think that if this trend continues, we will see woman at least at equal levels in a lot of areas, and in the majority in a few.


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't. I don't think it will get to the place where women make up 90% or anything, but I do think that if this trend continues, we will see woman at least at equal levels in a lot of areas, and in the majority in a few.


Well that's probably true. I think there are many areas that they already dominate, even in things supposedly for men. The media for instance, where I was a researcher for a number of years. Few people know that most shows on tv are written specifically for women, and then if it's a men's show they go in and add a few things to appeal to men (attractive women, for instance). But even that show was written for a woman's viewpoint to begin with. Once you know this, it explains a lot. They do this because women spend the most so advertisers want them, but more importantly, the profession itself is top to bottom female dominated, especially behind the scenes. More and more fields will head in this direction, though I think the official leaders of this and that will remain male overall. I don't know why but it seems to always play out that way, and even women seem to want that.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Sanity said:


> Feminism has done more to destroy families than the black plague.


Interesting. I too agree with Trenton hoping that you are speaking in hyperbole - in much the same way that recently a well-known talk show host disgraced himself as a fringe element with some very outrageous sexist remarks.

If you are speaking of the fringe elements - there are always and will always be fringe, radical elements for any movement.

But, generally, it has been shown that women having equal protection and equal rights under the law (which is the original tenet of feminism) is good and beneficial for a society.

I think that the things that have done more to destroy families than anything else is ...... (drum roll) .... people. People are selfish, people are greedy, people have all sorts of unsavory characteristics that go directly against the kind of nature that is needed to truly raise a wonderful human being ... and that goes back simply to the base nature of being human.

All the other stuff - all of the 'isms are just sugar-coating excuses on a basic lump of coal that was already there to begin with. imho.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

There's a famous essay by the late W. P. Brown on the dangers of human organizations. 

Successful human ideologies regardless of whether they are religious, social or political eventually crystallize into one or more organized bodies. Decades go by and the idealists who found these organizations either die off or are supplanted by hard-fisted pragmatists with agendas of their own. And the maintenance and survival of the organization becomes more important than the ideals upon which it was founded. Given enough time, organizations will even attack those ideals.

You see this everywhere. Countries found upon ideals of freedom eventually curtail some of those freedoms. Protestant denominations founded in direct opposition to the _ex cathedra_ authority of orthodoxy eventually form governing bodies of their own every bit as powerful as the magisterium. 

Feminism is no exception. There is a big difference today between the average person who embraces its ideals and the leaders of the organizations who claim to speak for that person. 

As a father of three daughters, I've supported Introduce A Girl To Engineering day. A couple of years ago, there was a NOW representative on a local talk station promoting the event. The D.J. playfully asked her if there should be a distaff counterpart to the event, like introduce a boy to nursing day. She said, "No....Learning what it's like to be excluded is the best lesson for the little bastards." 

Blatant misandry squatting under the shield of feminism is despicable. -But I still think the event itself is worthwhile. The trick is not to let the good get swallowed up by the bad.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I think labels are code words for a set of beliefs that are taken whole sale. The true meaning is hidden behind a set of rationalizations. 

In fact code words are meaningless in any discussion. That is why they exist - to obfuscate the real meaning which is often too inflammatory for polite people to say out loud. They hide behind code words to rally those with like beliefs. 

Try this - define these terms - states rights, family values, liberals, men, women, feminism. Now what is the real meaning.

Throwing out code words is not meant to stimulate discussion. It is meant to alert to rally support of the real meaning. The details are not important hence the code. For instance - 

States rights = the right of each state to determine is governance. 

Code meaning = enforce Jim crow laws and bias against black people. 

Feminism = is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women ( Wikipedia). 

Code meaning = a movement that has destroyed the fabric of American culture by elevating women who are biased and have inferior abilities at the expense of men who are fair minded and have superior abilities. 

It is impossible to tell if an individuals grievance has a merit but that is not important, the common agenda is important. 

I know about code words because I have been guilty of using them. In my case it is intellectual laziness.


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## Stryker (Feb 3, 2012)

*Feminism 


Real meaning = a movement that has destroyed the fabric of American culture by elevating women who are biased and have inferior abilities at the expense of men who are fair minded and have superior abilities.
*

---

By all frames of reference thats,any way apt Visa-Vis...whether Sarcastically ,Virtually,Apparently ,Really , Truly, Verily , etc etc..


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Stryker said:


> *Feminism
> 
> 
> Real meaning = a movement that has destroyed the fabric of American culture by elevating women who are biased and have inferior abilities at the expense of men who are fair minded and have superior abilities.
> ...


Is this what feminism means to you? If so, stop hiding behind a code word and say what you really think. 

Stand on your own and expose your beliefs. Are ashamed of them? 

The belief around code words fester in the dark. A good airing would, I am certain, lose adherents. When people think independently there is less chance to go along with the mob.

I sometimes can't believe what I am reading when the talk centers on the evils of feminism. It is as if the antifeminist want to turn back the clock to a time when women had no control over how many kids they had, no economic independence, no voting rights, no right to independent thoughts or actions. No right to anything without the express permission of men.

Yet they have daughters. They see the intellectual development of their female child. They see the life choices opening up to her as she grows and they see her taking her talents where ever they grow. 

Maybe the antifeminist want to control only a segment of women, the most troublesome sorts. 
^their independent minded wives and gf who won't do exactly what they want 
^women that they have to compete against at work who they think are not qualified and get special treatment 
^the women in politics who belong to the other party 
women who don't back down 
^and any woman who makes them feel insecure or inferior. 

Or perhaps they consider stifling their daughters by the reversal of equal political, economic, and social rights for women is collateral damage.


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## Stryker (Feb 3, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Is this what feminism means to you? If so, stop hiding behind a code word and say what you really think.
> 
> Stand on your own and expose your beliefs. Are ashamed of them?
> 
> ...


---Haha...It is not necessary to hide behind any Clap Trap "Feminism" or any such agenda...Those who do by all this Feminist stuff is making a Bias and Discrimination by themselves and are HYPOCRITES...Why cant you stop doing this and focus on Humanism..whether Male ,Female or any gender..?

FYI , and Knowledge Improvements , 

Its Humanism thats necessary...


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Is this what feminism means to you? If so, stop hiding behind a code word and say what you really think.
> 
> Stand on your own and expose your beliefs. Are ashamed of them?
> 
> ...


Your post is an pretty fair approximation of my original post. Just because someone has a problem with those who want to elevate women at the *expense* of men does that mean that they are against independent strong minded women? Really?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Beowulf
Can you be specific. I'll ask, do you feel this way due to personal experience? Is this a frequent occurrence in you work and/or private life?

How do you know that men are being hurt by the advancement of women? Is it your direct observation? 

I'll tell you my experience. I may sound like I am bragging but here it goes. 

God gave me superior intelligence, ability to make goals and work hard towards them, ability to figure out complex problems and a the gift of a personality that is comforting to the people I care for. I also don't need more than 4 hrs of sleep. 

With all of those talents, men with less talent and experience, are favored for advancement. 

To give an example, I was in a program that included 3 other men. I was only the 2nd women selected for the program in its history. 

On every evaluation that depended upon the judgment of a superior I was at the bottom of the group. 

However, on standardized exercises that included simulation of real life situation and on test, I scored were almost 2 SD above my classmates. 

My performance on these exams was explained away as an ability to take test but not apply information. 

I have never complained,or blame my classmates, instructors institutions, government and the world. I was determined and throughout my career, I have acted on cases of unfairness when I see it. That comes out of my experience. 

I took responsibility for the challenges God sent my way including dyslexia. I reasoned that He gave challenges to everyone, even my classmates and instructors. I viewed the challenges as opportunities for growth. 

I did not use my experiences as opportunities to 

My victory was to succeed despite obstacles. I view that as my responsibility to God who granted my gifts and bid me use them for the good of others. I am also sensitized to any unfairness I see. I work hard to remove bias from my life. I participate in programs to motivate boys and girls do well academically.

It is like the parable of the return of the prodigal son. I won't be asked what obstacles came my way but for the fruits of the gifts I was given. 

Could it be that I am blaming gender when it is just me or imagining slights that are not there? Possibly that is human nature. 

But if it is human nature for me or women like me, might it be for men who think that women are being advanced at their expense? 

The anger and vitriol directed at 1/2 of the population from men to women and women to men is waisted energy and a sign of weakness in my view. 

If indeed there is personal experience of discrimination, I think it should be taken as an opportunity for growth and do what you can to reverse unfairness of any type to man or women in your personal sphere.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Beowulf
> Can you be specific. I'll ask, do you feel this way due to personal experience? Is this a frequent occurrence in you work and/or private life?
> 
> How do you know that men are being hurt by the advancement of women? Is it your direct observation?
> ...


I have no personal experience that would cause me to have any type of gender bias. I simply observe what I have seen and heard throughout my life and comment. We are all entitled to an opinion after all. However it seems that you do have negative personal experience to draw upon and for that I am sorry for you. However, it does explain your apparent disdain for the male gender.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

B you don't need to feel sorry. I do not view it as a negative in my life. It was difficult but it was also good. I would not be the person I am today with out the personal reserves that I needed to build to weather this period. 

I bear no malice towards men for that experience. There are other experiences closer to home that I do need to work on. But this is not even close. 

I bet you have had difficult times as great or greater than mine that you have not shared. You don't seem to be bent out of shape about it. 

That's life. I really think that adversity calls us to become better people not to lash out in anger. To make us sensitive to the suffering of others. That is some of my struggle so I understand why men feel angry, it is not easy. 

Rain falls on the good and the wicked.


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## Stryker (Feb 3, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> B you don't need to feel sorry. I do not view it as a negative in my life. It was difficult but it was also good. I would not be the person I am today with out the personal reserves that I needed to build to weather this period.
> 
> I bear no malice towards men for that experience. There are other experiences closer to home that I do need to work on. But this is not even close.
> 
> ...


---*People are Prejudised, Bitter and thus Conditioned to be Biased...they bring in any kind of arguments to justify their stances...

The Feminists Crap is not liked by many Women too...I, The Man is with such Women...They dislike The "Feminists"..They even are not for any such Terminologies...or the Acts there of...They see them as Freaky and Obsessed...

The Feminists think that they need to interfere in any Woman's Life...and that they are Representatives for Women , with some License..

**It's Time that we focus on Humanism than any other Gender -isms...

God indeed gives rain on both good and wicked...

But its a Matter of True Awareness and Righteousness, on who is really Good and who is Really Wicked...irrespective of any gender , caste,creed, region or religion....

*


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