# Does your Marriage take precedence over your Kids?



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

My wife and I don't have any children yet. We very much want them (naturally and adopting), so we have discussions about our ideas and desires when it comes to parenting.

One thing we both firmly agree on is that we want our marriage to remain the central focus of our family life. We see children as an extension of our marriage, and that one of the best gifts we can ever give our future children is a healthy portrait of an alive, vibrant marriage with two people in love, committed, and crazy about one another. I believe that will help set a standard for their own romantic choices down the line, and hopefully make them feel more secure in the family. 

Now I know that many people believe that children automatically become your top familial priority the moment they arrive. At this point, only looking at this hypothetically, we don't find any merit in having our marriage take a backseat to children. Does anyone else, namely parents, subscribe to the idea of your marriage coming first in your family? If so, can you share some thoughts? 

Thank you.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

I think this is wise. It is uncommon though. I think most marriages make the mistake of putting the children always first. I get that but learned that it is ultimately better to be an example to the children of a loving couple. This does not mean the kids go without. It means there is a balance but that the marriage is what is important as the foundation of the family.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

It used to be kids first when we were first time parents... but now it's more of a 50/50 thing... which works better imo.


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## Pandakiss (Oct 29, 2010)

I think when they are little babies sure. When they walk and talk, nah...marriage comes first. 

Kids will love you unconditional your spouse not always a given. Kids move out, get married, have kids of their own. Your spouse will be the one standing next to you when the kids grow up. 

When you start to have health problems, your kids have their life to lead, they can't sit in the hospital with you day and night. You spouse is the one who will hold your hand, and care for you. 

My kids are my kids, my husband is my best friend, the holder of my hair, the tummy rubber. My husband is my emotional support, spiritual support, mental support, and my cruch when I need it. Same for him.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The marriage is the foundation, I believe. If that's strong, the kids have a great base to start from. Kids can command a whole lot of time and attention. It's easy to put your spouse on the back burner, but it's a huge mistake to do so.


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## Accipiter777 (Jul 22, 2011)

I agree with unbelievable , Marriage.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> I think this is wise. It is uncommon though. I think most marriages make the mistake of putting the children always first. I get that but learned that it is ultimately better to be an example to the children of a loving couple. This does not mean the kids go without. It means there is a balance but that the marriage is what is important as the foundation of the family.


I would love to "like" this post.

Yet, I felt it necessary to explain because I do not "like" that it is uncommon.

I especially don't like the fact that I've been involved in 2 marriages where "kids came first"

And, this doesn't mean raising them to be responsible productive adults "came first".

This meant their preferences, opinions, and "keeping them happy" came first.

If you want to have a strong marriage, do not do this.


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## WadeWilson (Jul 4, 2010)

Excluding things like health, education, and raising them to be productive members of society...
The Marriage comes first...
All the other things stop when we have a problem, trips, treats, even at times holidays are on pause until we work out our issues...
Besides, a trip to the beach is not fun when mommy and daddy are disappointed with each other...


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

My thought is that having children is going to test your theories and ideas to the max. It will take patience and understanding you didn't know you had and just might find out you don't have or are not willing. Almost every married couple were once you and your wife - building the relationship, establishing intentions and common goals, and sharing dreams, hopes, and ideals. Yet, look at the rate of divorce in this country. So few remember these days, too few have the mental fortitude and tenacity, and fewer still keep their promises. You are just like everyone else and very vulnerable. You have to go through all the same things those divorced people tried to endure but failed. You are not special. Your wife is not special. Your love and marriage are not special or one of a kind. Don't fool yourselves into thinking otherwise because thinking that and feeling all in love are not going to help you later down the line. You will find that they simply are not enough. For your marriage to survive it will take a lot of work and willingness to do whatever it takes. And as a man, just in case you need to be informed, "the marriage comes first" doesn't mean you get all the sex you want. You're being spoiled right now, but life, kids, jobs, hormones, resentments, etc. are going to burst your bubble at times and maybe long lengths of time. How will you handle that? And exactly what will "the marriage comes first" mean to you then, when it's real married life you're living and no longer the honeymoon before life begins?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

River1977 said:


> My thought is that having children is going to test your theories and ideas to the max. It will take patience and understanding you didn't know you had and just might find out you don't have or are not willing.


I'd rather never have children if it ultimately costs me my wife.



River1977 said:


> Almost every married couple were once you and your wife - building the relationship, establishing intentions and common goals, and sharing dreams, hopes, and ideals. Yet, look at the rate of divorce in this country. So few remember these days, too few have the mental fortitude and tenacity, and fewer still keep their promises. You are just like everyone else and very vulnerable. You have to go through all the same things those divorced people tried to endure but failed. You are not special. Your wife is not special. Your love and marriage are not special or one of a kind. Don't fool yourselves into thinking otherwise because thinking that and feeling all in love are not going to help you later down the line. You will find that they simply are not enough. For your marriage to survive it will take a lot of work and willingness to do whatever it takes. And as a man, just in case you need to be informed, "the marriage comes first" doesn't mean you get all the sex you want. You're being spoiled right now, but life, kids, jobs, hormones, resentments, etc. are going to burst your bubble at times and maybe long lengths of time. How will you handle that? And exactly what will "the marriage comes first" mean to you then, when it's real married life you're living and no longer the honeymoon before life begins?


This is a nice little attempt to "shock" me into a bitter reality, but you're a bit late. I've been in love with her for 14 years, and we've been together for 12. We've seen our share of highs, and lows, and still stand here, in love, and enraptured with one another. Marriage has only served to strengthen an already long, and powerful, love affair. 

So when does this decline start, exactly? When does my wife cease to amaze me? When do I start to no longer consider her the best thing that's ever happen to me? When will this seemingly unabating feeling of being totally in love with her, a feeling that has only increase with time, begin to dry up? When is she no longer, as you suggest, "special"? The 15th year? The 22nd? The 36th? When can I expect this massive disillusionment to settle in?


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

jaquen said:


> I'd rather never have children if it ultimately costs me my wife.
> 
> This is a nice little attempt to "shock" me into a bitter reality, but you're a bit late. I've been in love with her for 14 years, and we've been together for 12. We've seen our share of highs, and lows, and still stand here, in love, and enraptured with one another. Marriage has only served to strengthen an already long, and powerful, love affair.
> 
> So when does this decline start, exactly? When does my wife cease to amaze me? When do I start to no longer consider her the best thing that's ever happen to me? When will this seemingly unabating feeling of being totally in love with her, a feeling that has only increase with time, begin to dry up? When is she no longer, as you suggest, "special"? The 15th year? The 22nd? The 36th? When can I expect this massive disillusionment to settle in?


That was a nice little smart alec (and ungrateful, I might add) attempt to prove me wrong as though I can't possibly know what I'm talking about. But I have the statitistics I alluded to to prove my point quite well, thank you very much. I also have, as a reminder to you since you clearly have forgotten, that this is your topic of discussion, and your topic of discussion was about your principle of marriage after having children. Marriage after having children is the topic I addressed. Therefore, being informed of how long you have been married without children is not anything that proves me wrong, nor does it change my original response. But hey, I humbly and most earnestly apologize for responding at all and will never enter your nice little misguided thread again.

Edited to add and point out that I said nothing like your wife is not special TO YOU. Learn reading comprehension before you make yourself look the fool trying to tell somebody off over something they never stated.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

My kids' needs are met. Mommy and Daddy (us) spend our time with them the hour before bed. I just played a MEAN game of LIFE with my older daughter and Hubs read the baby some books...then we switched.

Now we're spending time together, gaming and talkin' and cleaning up and packing for our trip tomorrow.

It's a balance. One doesn't come before the other. BOTH are prioritized...children and marriage. And everyone is usually happy 

Although, we have been known to go lock the door and get busy while the kids watch TV and we don't even stop when the 3 year old knocks :rofl: We're quick and quiet when we have to be 

And tomorrow is a weekend away! I don't feel like i've lost my husband just because we have kids.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

River1977 said:


> That was a nice little smart alec (and ungrateful, I might add) attempt to prove me wrong as though I can't possibly know what I'm talking about.


No, actually I wouldn't have the gall to sit up and make assumptions about you, and your marriage, without even a remote shred of evidence to base it off. Because I don't know you, and I give you the basic courtesy that my ignorance is a barrier to me making an comments about your life. It was you who assumed you were talking to some naive child, fresh on the relationship boat, who's not suffered, hasn't dealt with real lows, trouble, and problems, and is still skipping through some kind of honeymoon haze, where "real married life" hasn't kicked in. 



River1977 said:


> But I have the statitistics I alluded to to prove my point quite well, thank you very much.


That's wonderful for you. I am well aware of all the statistics though. I also have a few of my own. Both of us come from marriages that survived, and in my case truly ended when with death did they part. I watched my mother mourn for my father, the man she was in love with for 40 years, for the five years between his passing and her own, all too soon.

But wait, nevermind, neither of my parents are dead. I'm just some young, dumb kid for whom life hasn't even begun! Thank God for butterflies and sunshiny honeymoons!



River1977 said:


> I also have, as a reminder to you since you clearly have forgotten, that this is your topic of discussion, and your topic of discussion was about your principle of marriage after having children. Marriage after having children is the topic I addressed. Therefore, being informed of how long you have been married without children is not anything that proves me wrong, nor does it change my original response. But hey, I humbly and most earnestly apologize for responding at all and will never enter your nice little misguided thread again.


Your presumptuous, bitter post had absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked, save remind me that perhaps we are right, _if _that is what you did, and this is the end result of putting your kids first.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Now I know that many people believe that children automatically become your top familial priority the moment they arrive. At this point, only looking at this hypothetically, we don't find any merit in having our marriage take a backseat to children. Does anyone else, namely parents, subscribe to the idea of your marriage coming first in your family? If so, can you share some thoughts?


You are far wiser than the vast majority of people.

My marriage comes before my children.

My marital problems all stem from my wife`s refusal to get on the same page with me.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

River1977 said:


> I also have, as a reminder to you since you clearly have forgotten, that this is your topic of discussion, and your topic of discussion was about your principle of marriage after having children. Marriage after having children is the topic I addressed.


I must have missed that in your post.

I don`t see where you directly dealt with the actual OP at all.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

that_girl said:


> My kids' needs are met. Mommy and Daddy (us) spend our time with them the hour before bed. I just played a MEAN game of LIFE with my older daughter and Hubs read the baby some books...then we switched.
> 
> Now we're spending time together, gaming and talkin' and cleaning up and packing for our trip tomorrow.
> 
> ...



which is why i feel NOW that it's 50/50 ...


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## Pandakiss (Oct 29, 2010)

BTW...I have 4 kids. A 16 year old and triplets. We survived loss of many jobs, having no car, losing apts, being homeless, cheating, horrible friends, controlling moms... 

Living through abuse, over coming resentment, drifting apart emotionally...

In my eyes, my husband is special. We are fast approaching our (I think) 22 years of us being together, and later this year it will be our 12th wedding anniversary. 

We are special. Why not. If I choose my husband to be my person, instead of my kids, how is it deranged. I can speak about this point of view since we have kids, and have been together over half our lives.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

TRIPLETS!!! wow.... and here i am fearing i may have twins!!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The marriage comes first as a strong, passionate marriage can provide a good foundation for the children. 

This does not mean that the children are left uncared for or sacrificed for the marriage. It's a delicate balance.. for example when a child is ill the child's needs become very important and take precidence until the child is well. And both parents need to be mature enough to handle this.

From time to time this topic comes up here and the responses are usually about the same even if the posters are different. What does not get discussed in detail is what does it mean to put the marriage first while still balancing this with the care and love it takes to raise a child?I’ll add one to start this.

A couple should spend about 15 hours together doing date-like things… just the two of them… each week. So how do parents get this time with demanding little ones around. Parents are often also struggling with budget issues as well so just hiring a nanny is not the answer for most parents.

One way is to set an early bed time for the children. Once the children are in bed and asleep the parents can spend an hour or two a day together. This time should be sacred.

On the weekends the parents can get a baby sitter and have a weekly date. If they cannot afford a sitter, ask a family member or ask friends to swap babysitting time so that both couples can get time out.


Anyone want to chime in with some examples?


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

With mine and my hubbys case... we can't afford a nanny/babysitter nor is any of our family really capable or available to take care of the kids soooo we decided that when were able to go out it will be something along the lines of.... Going out to dinner (Golden corral probably) and going to a movie after... (Something the kids can sit and watch too) All our friends are either to far away or.... in my hubbys case.. already full with tending to other peoples kids to really take on our own.. nor do we want to burden them with two added kids. Another thing we plan on doing is going out on a picnic later on... which would give the kids plenty of time to run around and play and us time to sit together, talk, cuddle, ect.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Pandakiss said:


> BTW...I have 4 kids. A 16 year old and triplets. We survived loss of many jobs, having no car, losing apts, being homeless, cheating, horrible friends, controlling moms...
> 
> Living through abuse, over coming resentment, drifting apart emotionally...
> 
> ...


Where is the "love" button when you need one?

Thank you for sharing.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Gaia said:


> which is why i feel NOW that it's 50/50 ...


What I have seen in a lot of marriages, to include mine to my son's father, is that the children are put first... far above the marrital needs.

We see a lot of men here complain that once their first child was born their wife seems to have checked out of the marriage and only cares about the child. This is not healthy for the marriage or for the child.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I agree... I was the same when I had my first as well... then the second came along and changed my viewpoint over these past two years...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

You guys are incredible. Thanks for offering practical advice on what to actually consider doing to maintain our marriage after the kids have come. It's nice to get out of just theory (which is interesting to discuss), and actually have some real tools to pull out when it comes to scheduling "us" time.

I think it's a mentality. I have met people, and indeed have people in my life, for whom the kids have become their total focus, the glue that holds them together. One, or both, have elevated their children to basically "soulmate" status. We'd like to do all we can to fight the good fight, and love our growing family, but still recognize that we are the center, and impetus, behind said family.

It just seems rather silly for us to lose sight of the sole reason the family exists in the first place. We view marriage as foundation for our children, not a mere road to get to our children. Hopefully it is a perspective we can hold on to in the face of falling head over heels in love with our children LOL (which I know we will)!

I just love her so much. I do not want to lose her, or become a cautionary tale of what happens when you basically marry your kids.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

This is something I have really struggled with. To give my background, my husband and I have been together for more than 20 years, married for nearly 10. We were high school sweethearts. I have adored him for more than half my life, he is the love of my life and I have no doubt I will love him till the day I die. We have two daughters, 5 and 2.

Before I had my first daughter, I could have written your OP. 'it will be a different love, not more' 'why should I have to choose?' 'the marriage is the most important thing' 'we've been through so much, we'll be fine'. The thing is, you don't know. You just don't know what having a baby is like. All is changed, changed utterly. Your whole life is different, and if you get a baby who doesn't sleep and cries a lot, like I did, then life will be much sucker than your pre-child life. 

Babies need more. There needs are bigger, more intense and more important than an adult's because they can't wait and their brains and characters are forming. They're learning to trust and how the world works, so the stakes are really high. And the love is different, it is intensely protective, much more primal and somehow more part of the fabric of your soul than the love for a partner, no matter how beloved he or she is. Plus you are exhausted and anxious and resentful that life has changed so much and there is nothing to be done. Nothing else you do has basically no escape clause, if you're a decent human being anyway. You can leave jobs, divorce a husband, move house, but parenting is forever and parenting a baby is relentless. 

I remember through the haze of sleep-deprivation and resentment, looking at my husband asleep as I was dragging myself out of bed at 6am yet again and thinking "I *hate* you.". This man I had adored for more than a decade, and that was the topmost thought in my mind. 

Looking back, we were both depressed and in shock for about 2 years after our first daughter was born. I'm amazed we made it through, but very thankful. And the thing is, pretty well every couple I know well enough to discuss these things with felt the same way for the first year. I don't expect you to really believe any of this applies to you. I sure didn't. I heard negative things about parenthood and I'd nod and act like was considering it, but secretly I was thinking, "yeah, but not for me. It won't be like that for me.". It was.

And I didn't even have it that hard. My daughter was healthy and perfect, she wasnt twins, I had no problems with breastfeeding, I didn't have a Caesarian, I had 12 months leave, my husband had 6 weeks, my mum was supportive, although my dad was being treated for two kinds on cancer during my daughters first year. And yet. 

My daughters are five and two now and things are much, much better. I can truly say now that I am very glad I have them, I would choose it again, even knowing how hard it was. I wouldn't have said that 18 months ago. I would have said that although I loved them with the power of a thousand suns, if I could go back in time I would make a different choice. If my husband and I hadn't been able to pull our relationship out of the fire I would still feel that way now. 

But things are different. *I* am different. Motherhood has changed me, permanently. Fatherhood has changed my husband. Nora Ephron said that children are like a hand grenade thrown into a marriage. When the dust has settled, things will be different. Not necessarily worse, or better, but definitely not the same.

So sure, the marriage should come first. Obviously. But add in exhaustion, resentment, plain old lack of time, anxiety, differences of opinion, trying to integrate this incredible, over powering love you feel for a baby into your relationship and it is easier said than done. Practical suggestions; spending an hour after the kids are in bed. Again, that might not be so easy if you get a difficult sleeper or twins, or a baby with special needs. Date nights are good, but my husband and I don't leave our girls with babysitters yet, so we have a romantic dinner with wine etc every Saturday night in our own lounge room after they're asleep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Lyris said:


> I don't expect you to really believe any of this applies to you. I sure didn't. I heard negative things about parenthood and I'd nod and act like was considering it, but secretly I was thinking, "yeah, but not for me. It won't be like that for me.". It was.


No, it's actually quite the opposite. This is exactly what I want/need to hear. We are both very well aware that our perspective exists in a vacuum, and that the added, crucial ingredient of an actual child can, and likely will, change everything. We're trying to balance realism with idealism. A little from column A, and column B.

So it's good to hear all perspectives. Especially since we're thinking of eventually adopting an older child, from within the "system", which presents it's own very different, unique challenges. 

I know parents who've managed to pull it off, and others who've lost their way as the child(ren) become the primary recipients of their love and affection.

Just trying to get as many views as I can.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

The big thing for us is to keep dating.

Yes, it's difficult to slink away or go out when the kids are little, so many date nights were at home when the kids went to bed. We ALWAYS made sure the kids were in bed with enough time for us to hang out afterwards. I hear of people letting their kids stay up til 10 or 11 and I think, "where's the 'you' time??" Our kids were in bed by 8 when they were small and we go to bed at 10.

Now, our older daughter stays up until 9, but she knows that "family time" ends at 8:30 and that's her time to unwind and hubs and i hang out until 10 together. 

Now that she's almost 13, we have her babysit (pay her 10 bucks  ) so we can go to dinner. We leave when the younger one goes down at 8ish...and are home by 11. It's good for her to learn that responsibility (I was babysitting for 3 different families on a regular basis at age 12 to 17), and it gives us "date nights". We go to places close to home and we text her to make sure she's ok. usually she has a friend stay the night with her when we go out.

But it's all about COMMITTING to making time for each other. Sure, newborns take up a lot of time, but people need to learn to put the baby down and pick each other up. When our younger one was new, we took every nap, every 'quiet time' to hang out. Now, we look forward to bedtime for the kids because we know it's OUR time. 

Our issues didn't come from our children. It came from my own issues..and his own issues...not about our kids. Thankfully, we've worked those out.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

That_Girl has the key I think.

I`m sitting here reading about how hard kids are and while it`s not easy I don`t recall it being THAT difficult.
Apparently we were lucky.

We had no support system with three kids(Two from my wifes previous relationship) and simply could not go out on anything that resembled a date night.

We did what That_Girl did, the kids were in bed as early as possible and we had date nights at home.
Saturday night became our salvation and was something we both looked forward to all week.

Now those kids are old enough to be left alone (The two boys are adults and our daughter is 11) we still do Saturday night the same way we always did at home alone with no distractions.

It`s important that the kids are put on the back burner at least once or twice a week to stay intimate and connected.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

OMG! We are the parents until 8:30...then we just can't wait to tuck our little one into bed and kiss our older one goodnight. Their doors close and WOOT! We are a couple again.

Gives us something to look forward to. We love our kids, and we're raising them the best we can, but they know the sun doesn't rise or set on their behinds, and I think it keeps them grounded.

I have always been in the mindset that I didn't have children so I could have friends. I had children and I'm raising them to be good humans and adults. I am still 'me'...and Hubs is still 'him'. When the Mommy and Daddy hats come off, it's just us again. 

I could be in the minority about that, but honestly, as much as I love my children, they are not my whole life. And they shouldn't be, imo. I'm raising them to be productive adults so someday they can leave our home and be on their own and raise their own families. When that happens, i don't want to look across the couch and wonder who the hell that man is...nor do i want to look in the mirror and wonder who the hell I am.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Just to add: I don't mean we stop being parents at 8:30 :lol: No. we are still parents.

But we stop censoring ourselves. We stop being good role models. We stop managing and running the house. We stop worrying about bills/kids/money/house/cleaning, etc. We grab a beer, light up a smoke, and we hang in the garage (where I am now on a couch) and game. Right now Hubs is in the "zone"...killing zombies!  The game is WAY too intense for me...so I'm here, but i can't watch the whole game. Gives me nightmares.

But I can be ME now. Cuss, burp and not say excuse me, grab my Hubs' junk (well, not right now cause he's in the "zone" and we want to pass this game :rofl: ) and in a bit, we'll go to bed and snuggle...and more.

The thing is, you cannot forget who you were when you married and why you married them.

We forgot for a while. the stress of everything and our own issues plagued us. 

No longer.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

jaquen said:


> No, it's actually quite the opposite. This is exactly what I want/need to hear. We are both very well aware that our perspective exists in a vacuum, and that the added, crucial ingredient of an actual child can, and likely will, change everything. We're trying to balance realism with idealism. A little from column A, and column B.
> 
> So it's good to hear all perspectives. Especially since we're thinking of eventually adopting an older child, from within the "system", which presents it's own very different, unique challenges.
> 
> ...


I think the reason children become the primary focus for love, or one big reason, is that loving a child is so easy. It's effortless. And it's so so rewarding, instant gratification. Whereas loving an adult is sometimes hard and sometime not very rewarding, if youre not getting much back. We expect stuff from our partners; support, love, responsibility. You hear it all the time, 'marriage takes work," "love is a verb" etc. Although it took me a few weeks to bond with my first daughter, since then the love just pours out for my girls with no work at all, no matter what they do. As a parent, you love your baby with no expectation of reward or even reciprocity in the beginning, or you do if you're emotionally stable. I think it's pretty hard to love a partner like that, we all have expectations and deal breakers.

So on the one hand you have this baby who is designed totally to elicit fierce love from its caregiver/s, from the delicious way it smells, to the big cheek-small nose-big eyes ratio of its face. It's so simple to satisfy its needs - food, warmth, loving contact. Squeezing a knee brings hysterical laughter. Then you have your spouse who has all kinds of needs, stated and unstated. They might be tired, resentful, guilty, prickly, angry, depressed. It's really no wonder people turn to a baby or child. It's just easier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Lyris said:


> I think the reason children become the primary focus for love, or one big reason, is that loving a child is so easy. It's effortless. And it's so so rewarding, instant gratification. Whereas loving an adult is sometimes hard and sometime not very rewarding, if youre not getting much back. We expect stuff from our partners; support, love, responsibility. You hear it all the time, 'marriage takes work," "love is a verb" etc. Although it took me a few weeks to bond with my first daughter, since then the love just pours out for my girls with no work at all, no matter what they do. As a parent, you love your baby with no expectation of reward or even reciprocity in the beginning, or you do if you're emotionally stable. I think it's pretty hard to love a partner like that, we all have expectations and deal breakers.
> 
> So on the one hand you have this baby who is designed totally to elicit fierce love from its caregiver/s, from the delicious way it smells, to the big cheek-small nose-big eyes ratio of its face. It's so simple to satisfy its needs - food, warmth, loving contact. Squeezing a knee brings hysterical laughter. Then you have your spouse who has all kinds of needs, stated and unstated. They might be tired, resentful, guilty, prickly, angry, depressed. It's really no wonder people turn to a baby or child. It's just easier.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True, and not true. My older daughter is hard to SHOW love to. I love her. deeply. But she suffers from Sensory Processing Disorder and hates to be touched. For the longest time it broke my heart because I couldn't SHOW her I loved her without her arching her back, screaming and trying to get away.  

My younger daughter is very snuggly. It's nice. Something I never experienced with my older child. We hang out and stuff, but I never felt close to her. 

I think people just want to do the best they can for their children and they think that means being with them 24/7 and doing everything for them.

As a teacher, I can tell you that the children who never get to make decisions or never get to do things alone are the WORST to have in class.

People need to not forget themselves.

It's OK to let a child play alone for a while and explore. It's OK to let children not have every minute of every day scheduled with activities. I tell my kids all the time that sometimes life is boring...so learn to deal with it. When they are doing nothing...I am doing something. They see me doing something...and they find their own "something" to do.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Lyris said:


> I think the reason children become the primary focus for love, or one big reason, is that loving a child is so easy. It's effortless. And it's so so rewarding, instant gratification. Whereas loving an adult is sometimes hard and sometime not very rewarding, if youre not getting much back. We expect stuff from our partners; support, love, responsibility. You hear it all the time, 'marriage takes work," "love is a verb" etc. Although it took me a few weeks to bond with my first daughter, since then the love just pours out for my girls with no work at all, no matter what they do. As a parent, you love your baby with no expectation of reward or even reciprocity in the beginning, or you do if you're emotionally stable. I think it's pretty hard to love a partner like that, we all have expectations and deal breakers.
> 
> So on the one hand you have this baby who is designed totally to elicit fierce love from its caregiver/s, from the delicious way it smells, to the big cheek-small nose-big eyes ratio of its face. It's so simple to satisfy its needs - food, warmth, loving contact. Squeezing a knee brings hysterical laughter. Then you have your spouse who has all kinds of needs, stated and unstated. They might be tired, resentful, guilty, prickly, angry, depressed. It's really no wonder people turn to a baby or child. It's just easier.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



This post makes me excited to encounter this kind of new love that you describe. 

But the way you describe a marital love isn't really very reflective of who we are today (with the caveat that it could very well end up being us tomorrow). In that it's pretty effortless to love my wife, and she feels the same. Yes it is a complex situation, and there are ups, and downs, but loving her is easy, feeling that love, and it is incredible reward in and of itself most of the time.

Do you think what you described is a byproduct of the changes a child(ren) brings to the table, or would you say those challenges were present before the children came along?


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

My wife and I plan to be together long after our children are out and on their own. Marriage comes first.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

jaquen said:


> This post makes me excited to encounter this kind of new love that you describe.
> 
> But the way you describe a marital love isn't really very reflective of who we are today (with the caveat that it could very well end up being us tomorrow). In that it's pretty effortless to love my wife, and she feels the same. Yes it is a complex situation, and there are ups, and downs, but loving her is easy, feeling that love, and it is incredible reward in and of itself.
> 
> Do you think what you described is a byproduct of the changes a child(ren) brings to the table, or would you say those challenges were present before the children came along?


No that's not a representation of the love between me and my husband, I was trying to speak a bit more generally about why the emotional focus might shift from a spouse to a child, especially in the very early years.

I feel that my love for my husband is part of me. It won't change, it won't go away. Before our kids, the idea that marriage takes work etc didn't resonate with me at all, our relationship brought me pretty much nothing but joy. But we still struggled after my first daughter was born. We didn't communicate properly and a lot of unspoken resentment built up as we both thought we were working harder than the other. Realistically, there was just a lot to be done and we werent used to it. Over time the resentment built up over the top of our love, plus we both got depressed and found it hard to feel anything at all. 

My advice to new parents would be;

Expect everything to be **** for the first 12 months.
Be very gentle with one another
Hang in there, things get better
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pandakiss (Oct 29, 2010)

both husband and wife have to be one the same page long before a baby comes along. new dads have to step up and be strong and confidant that they can handle the baby.

thats hard to do...how do you know what to do in a situation you have never been in....just have to breath deep, and jump.

when we had our oldest...i had baby lust,, my husband wrestled that baby out of my arms sooo many times. he stepped up for feedings, changings, and told me to take my way of doing things and stuff it.

we were parents too young, and never had money for a movie, unless it came from "blockbusters rent on get one 99 cent wall"...we just went on our balcony [like that girl and their garage]. 

we [read husband] put the baby down, we would go out side and smoke, talk and chill. it was enough for us to just be together, without someone crying....and we could talk.

TG...i agree, after a certain time of night...im done. they are in the bed, i want to be the "girlfriend" to my husband. we NEED this time to be us..not mom & dad.

nothing wrong with mom & dad...but husband & wife, is pretty good too.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jaquen said:


> Now I know that many people believe that children automatically become your top familial priority the moment they arrive. At this point, only looking at this hypothetically, we don't find any merit in having our marriage take a backseat to children. Does anyone else, namely parents, subscribe to the idea of your marriage coming first in your family? If so, can you share some thoughts?


I have not read all of these replies -just jumping on this opening post... I think it is very healthy for you to be asking these questions ... I am sure many of us are guilty of doing this -- I am one of those Moms who did this --and highly regret it. 

I do feel, our situation was a little differnt though, after yrs of Secondary infertility - I was so overwhelmed to be having more children I near forgot about the Dad who helped me get them!! Had this not happened, I think I might not have gone overboard on the kids somehow. I don't know. 

We were a couple who near LIVED for our kids... we didn't take any vacations alone, we lived to bring little smiles on thier faces..Or I did...... I remember an Aunt offering to babysit for us after having like 3 babies in a row, I remember going out to eat with my husband that 1st time...and this thought crossed my mind suddenly.... "Hmmmmm what do we even talk about if not about the kids?!".... YIKES, you would think I would have woke up right there & realized ...DAAAHHHHHHH , we need to spend more alone time...

He let me put the babies in bed with us --My husband was far too passive (not sure how else to describe this- he never complained)... some of the young ones crashed regularly on our bedroom floor. This can really destruct your sex life!

It is a darn shame, most women get very tired with a few kids.. I was never like that.. I just had my mind other places, it didn't have to happen. It IS all about Priorities. I was missing it- not out of tiredness, but stupidity. 

If you have this goal to Keep those date nights -no matter what, to be creative in how you manage your time & your children's time.... this never has to be. 

We still have a little one & 2 in elementary... Since I wised up.. this will never be again. We LIVE for our alone time - every night- no matter what, bedroom door locked. We now take romantic vacations just to get away.. When I think of that old hit song by Tommy James... "I think we're alone now"... I think of us getting away from our kids... not the parents, ha ha.

And it's wonderful...very doable.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Wow SimplyAmorous, I just read this out loud to my sister and we are both touched by your transparency, and think you're giving wonderful advice. As soon as my wife gets back from her business trip I'm going to read your post (and a few others) out load to her.

Such great advice from all (well save one lol). Thanks everybody!


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

When the children were babies and toddlers, they took up all of our time and we were exhausted. They did come first before our needs. Now they are older, our marriage comes first. My husband and I do meet each others needs and the children are taken care of as well.

Our children give us our space when we lock the bedroom door. We usually tell them that daddy is taking a shower. It works well and he has time for his shower and with me. Sometimes we do shower together, which is awesome.

Every family has their own unique way of doing things and what works for them.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

You are wise to seek counsel on this issue. In my opinion, it is sort of the diabetes or silent killer of marriage. In my marriage we got this issue wrong big time, and it was the number one factor that lead to its ultimate failure. They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I would suggest that the road to marital hell is likewise paved.

The problem is when the kids are put first and the variable of time is added to the equation; the principal parties...read husband and wife simply grow apart. On the plus side, everything seems to look hunky dory from the outside, until the marriage is completely riddled and cancerous. So you will have tremendous marital curb appeal if that sort of thing is important.

The only thing I can really say in closing is that I wished someone had told me. Instead, it was setup before me like the kids first path was more sacrificial and noble. Oops.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gav (Nov 13, 2011)

Speaking as someone with five kids and one crazy house, your priorities must be:

1. Yourself - you can't have a healthy marriage or family if you're not healthy yourself.
2. Your marriage - You can't have a healthy family without a healthy marriage.
3. Your kids

Now just because they're prioritized doesn't mean that you ignore 2 and 3 if there's anything to be done with 1, but it means that all things said and done, you need to take care of things in that priority.

Yes, that means that if the kids are asking to play a game but you feel like you haven't had enough time with your spouse ... sorry kids...


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

I think the happiness of the marriage depends on the cooperation of both partners with each other.
If the woman is the only one doing chores around the house, cooking, taking care of the kids, washing..etc. then she obviously has no time for her husband -- which results in moving her husband in the 2nd place.
It could be vice versa. Depending who of them spends time at home and with kids the most.


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## marksaysay (Oct 15, 2010)

I once heard someone explain it this: You are a husband/wife first and a father/mother second. This means, yes, the marriage comes first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

My sister recalled a conversation we had in reference to this thread, and she just emailed me this:

Parents will raise happier children 'if they put them second to their marriage' | Life and style | The Observer

Thoughts?


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

I think children should come first overall, but not always in everyday stuff. Its OK to make your spouse a priority and focus on your marriage, but in the big picture its all about taking responsibility for your kids rain or shine. 

I think of it like this. My kids didn't choose to come into this world. My wife and I made that choice for them and therefore we're responsible for them in everyway. If my wife and I are not happy with each other we have our "discussions" away from the kids. We don't upset their schedules or their goals because we're having difficulties. If one of the kids needs some special attention then we make that our priority no matter what's going on. You only have one chance at this. Again its not their fault that our relationship needs some work or I'm going through something. I still must live up to my responsibilities because I made this choice. That what it means to be a parent. We all had plans to stay the same after kids and I haven't met a single reasonable couple who pulled it off. Kids change everything for those who care.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Enginerd said:


> We all had plans to stay the same after kids and I haven't met a single reasonable couple who pulled it off. Kids change everything for those who care.


This is interesting, because I don't believe my wife and I have ever thought things would "stay the same". We're both very aware that children will change our lives, and our marriage, but we've just, at this juncture, decided that putting our marriage first above anything, save God, is what's best for us. Hopefully we'll be able to both prioritize our children, love and care for them, without allowing our marriage to crumble under the weight of always picking the kids over each other. Sadly I have seen my share of marriages that pivot around the kids, their every desire and want, and the picture is not pretty.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Totally disagree with the above.

Kids are NOT the center of the universe and the sooner they realize this, the better. Sometimes you just gotta wait for things. Sometimes something is more important than you. Deal.

I have to deal with so many children whose parents treat them like the sun rises and sets on their butts. They are impulsive, can't wait in line, they interrupt. Omg. And they are 10 and 11 years old! 

I do agree with not letting your marriage problems affect the kids. Totally get that. Stability is so good for children. My daughters have very stable lives.

However, my marriage comes first. Without a strong marriage, we don't have a family. Simple as that.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Without a strong marriage, we don't have a family. Simple as that.


That`s really what it all comes down to.

The marriage takes priority because if the marriage is good everything else is going to be just fine.


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

Children come first. I would run into a burning building to save my children even if it was too late, even if it was completely suicidal. I would rather die than live with the fact that I failed in my charge as a parent. I love my children no matter what they do. My spouse has/could do things that would alter my feelings for her. The children never asked to be put in in an environment where the parents cannot get along, so they take precedence over unresolvable marital problems.

Plus I see it as MY DUTY to show my little girls how a man should treat a woman (and be treated). They have a strong male role model who shows respect, but will not put up with undue stressors. I set this example so that one day they can find a good man who loves them half as much as I do.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jaquen,
The typical male/female/children wiring works something like this (for an average couple):
- Before kids during the "bonding" phase, your W loves and prioritizes you - as you do her. 
- The strength of the female to male bond however is much more "fickle" than the male to female bond. Typically it is adversely impacted by a short list of critical factors:
1. Time. If you think about the bond as defined by: The females desire to amplify your love for her. And that is the key - her behavior reflects HER desire for you to love her. The strength of that desire typically fades simply with the passage of time.
2. Children. The average female is wired to love and prioritize children ahead of their husband. If this is not managed carefully by both partners, the husband slowly gets deprioritized until he is invisible (other than financially). Many wives get most of their emotional fullfillment met - by their children. They simply need less husband at that point. 
3. Male difficulty making the transition from "it's all about her" to "it's all about us". As the romance naturally fades - and sex with it - the man typically either: Clings or withdraws. Both exacerbate the situation. Clingyness is a huge turn off for most women. And withdrawing - can create a whole other set of problems. 
4. Male inferiority (when compared to women) at low intensity conflct. Men come wired with the "package". Adrenaline, and testosterone make non-physical fighting (arguing) harder and more emotionally exhausting than that same conflict causes a female. And the package - is designed to enhanced physical fighting ability. Boosting strength, lowering pain sensitivity, etc. BUT as anyone who has had non-physical conflict knows: Being really angry makes you stupid. So for marital conflict it makes you weaker. 

To the degree you deal with all of this effectively, you have a long happy marriage. I do. Otherwise - not so much. 




jaquen said:


> My wife and I don't have any children yet. We very much want them (naturally and adopting), so we have discussions about our ideas and desires when it comes to parenting.
> 
> One thing we both firmly agree on is that we want our marriage to remain the central focus of our family life. We see children as an extension of our marriage, and that one of the best gifts we can ever give our future children is a healthy portrait of an alive, vibrant marriage with two people in love, committed, and crazy about one another. I believe that will help set a standard for their own romantic choices down the line, and hopefully make them feel more secure in the family.
> 
> ...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Vanton68 said:


> Children come first. I would run into a burning building to save my children even if it was too late, even if it was completely suicidal. I would rather die than live with the fact that I failed in my charge as a parent. I love my children no matter what they do.



That's interesting, because this actually describes how I love my wife.



Vanton68 said:


> Plus I see it as MY DUTY to show my little girls how a man should treat a woman (and be treated). They have a strong male role model who shows respect, but will not put up with undue stressors. I set this example so that one day they can find a good man who loves them half as much as I do.


I love this. This is exactly how I view fatherhood.



MEM11363 said:


> Jaquen,
> The typical male/female/children wiring works something like this (for an average couple):
> - Before kids during the "bonding" phase, your W loves and prioritizes you - as you do her.
> - The strength of the female to male bond however is much more "fickle" than the male to female bond. Typically it is adversely impacted by a short list of critical factors:
> ...


Good Lord, this sounds like a nightmare. And I'm not doubting that it's true for some people, because I have seen it with my own eyes.

Thankfully I've also seen the alternative. I hope we end up like the alternative.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

The thing is, logically, obviously you put your marriage first. Obviously it's better for children to grow up in a happy, stable home. 

But it's not logical, how you love your children. It's primal and instinctual. It's pretty well indestructible, and it's based on the fierce need to protect them and keep them alive. Babies are designed to make their caregivers love them like this because otherwise they won't survive.

So here you have a couple who love each other as much as they think it's possible for them to love. They have a baby, and boom, here's suddenly this other love that is different from anything they've ever felt and that takes up their whole world for a while. No matter what you do with date nights, making sure you have time together, whatever, there's nothing to be done about the fact that emotions have shifted and theyre never going back. And that's hard to accept.

So, practically, there's plenty you can do to keep your marriage healthy. But if you don't acknowledge the emotional reality of having kids you're only dealing with part of the puzzle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

This whole discussion reminds me of author Ayelet Waldman piece in the New York Times a few years ago, where she declared that she loved her husband more than her kids, and considered the kids satellites that revolved around their marriage, but not the center of her life. She also said she believed she'd survive the death of one of her children, but didn't feel she could survive the death of her spouse.

It made a huge splash. Lots of people standing up in applause, but also a lot of people pissed, and some downright horrified.


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

jaquen said:


> This whole discussion reminds me of author Ayelet Waldman piece in the New York Times a few years ago, where she declared that she loved her husband more than her kids, and considered the kids satellites that revolved around their marriage, but not the center of her life. She also said she believed she'd survive the death of one of her children, but didn't feel she could survive the death of her spouse.
> 
> It made a huge splash. Lots of people standing up in applause, but also a lot of people pissed, and some downright horrified.


Count me as horrified. I can objectively think about my spouse and kids; by doing that, I know my children take precedence. 

My wife could call up an old BF and set it up so they would be in bed together when I come home; would my feelings about her change? Hell yes. Would I still love her initially? yes. Lets say she then moves in with the guy. Would my feelings change in time so I wouldn't love her anymore? yes. She has the power to change my feelings through her actions. My daughters do not have that power, as I love them --> no matter their actions. Can I be disappointed in them? yes. Can I stop loving them? no.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

jaquen said:


> This whole discussion reminds me of author Ayelet Waldman piece in the New York Times a few years ago, where she declared that she loved her husband more than her kids, and considered the kids satellites that revolved around their marriage, but not the center of her life. She also said she believed she'd survive the death of one of her children, but didn't feel she could survive the death of her spouse.
> 
> It made a huge splash. Lots of people standing up in applause, but also a lot of people pissed, and some downright horrified.


I remember that piece. If it was truly how she felt, and not just a piece of controversy-stirring attention-seeking exaggeration I don't think she's properly bonded to her children. I love my husband entirely. I have loved him my whole adult life, if I lost him I would not marry again. But given the choice between saving him and saving my girls, horrible as that choice would be, I would save my girls. As would and should he.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Found the old article! This is actually my very first time reading through it. I only read articles about it, with excerpts, in the past. I would super love to get people's reactions to it:

*Truly, Madly, Guiltily
*By AYELET WALDMAN 

Published: March 27, 2005

I HAVE been in many mothers' groups - Mommy and Me, Gymboree, Second-Time Moms - and each time, within three minutes, the conversation invariably comes around to the topic of how often mommy feels compelled to put out. Everyone wants to be reassured that no one else is having sex either. These are women who, for the most part, are comfortable with their bodies, consider themselves sexual beings. These are women who love their husbands or partners. Still, almost none of them are having any sex.

There are agreed upon reasons for this bed death. They are exhausted. It still hurts. They are so physically available to their babies - nursing, carrying, stroking - how could they bear to be physically available to anyone else?

But the real reason for this lack of sex, or at least the most profound, is that the wife's passion has been refocused. Instead of concentrating her ardor on her husband, she concentrates it on her babies. Where once her husband was the center of her passionate universe, there is now a new sun in whose orbit she revolves. Libido, as she once knew it, is gone, and in its place is all-consuming maternal desire. There is absolute unanimity on this topic, and instant reassurance.

Except, that is, from me.

I am the only woman in Mommy and Me who seems to be, well, getting any. This could fill me with smug well-being. I could sit in the room and gloat over my wonderful marriage. I could think about how our sex life - always vital, even torrid - is more exciting and imaginative now than it was when we first met. I could check my watch to see if I have time to stop at Good Vibrations to see if they have any exciting new toys. I could even gaze pityingly at the other mothers in the group, wishing that they too could experience a love as deep as my own.

But I don't. I am far too busy worrying about what's wrong with me. Why, of all the women in the room, am I the only one who has not made the erotic transition a good mother is supposed to make? Why am I the only one incapable of placing her children at the center of her passionate universe?

WHEN my first daughter was born, my husband held her in his hands and said, "My God, she's so beautiful."

I unwrapped the baby from her blankets. She was average size, with long thin fingers and a random assortment of toes. Her eyes were close set, and she had her father's hooked nose. It looked better on him.

She looked like a newborn baby, red and scrawny, blotchy faced and mewling. I don't remember what I said to my husband. Actually I remember very little of my Percocet- and Vicodin-fogged first few days of motherhood except for someone calling and squealing, "Aren't you just completely in love?" And of course I was. Just not with my baby.

I do love her. But I'm not in love with her. Nor with her two brothers or sister. Yes, I have four children. Four children with whom I spend a good part of every day: bathing them, combing their hair, sitting with them while they do their homework, holding them while they weep their tragic tears. But I'm not in love with any of them. I am in love with my husband.

It is his face that inspires in me paroxysms of infatuated devotion. If a good mother is one who loves her child more than anyone else in the world, I am not a good mother. I am in fact a bad mother. I love my husband more than I love my children.

An example: I often engage in the parental pastime known as God Forbid. What if, God forbid, someone were to snatch one of my children? God forbid. I imagine what it would feel like to lose one or even all of them. I imagine myself consumed, destroyed by the pain. And yet, in these imaginings, there is always a future beyond the child's death. Because if I were to lose one of my children, God forbid, even if I lost all my children, God forbid, I would still have him, my husband.

But my imagination simply fails me when I try to picture a future beyond my husband's death. Of course I would have to live. I have four children, a mortgage, work to do. But I can imagine no joy without my husband.


I don't think the other mothers at Mommy and Me feel this way. I know they would be absolutely devastated if they found themselves widowed. But any one of them would sacrifice anything, including their husbands, for their children.

Can my bad motherhood be my husband's fault? Perhaps he just inspires more complete adoration than other husbands. He cooks, cleans, cares for the children at least 50 percent of the time.

If the most erotic form of foreplay to a mother of a small child is, as I've heard some women claim, loading the dishwasher or sweeping the floor, then he's a master of titillation.

He's handsome, brilliant and successful. But he can also be scatterbrained, antisocial and arrogant. He is a bad dancer, and he knows far too much about Klingon politics and the lyrics to Yes songs. All in all, he's not that much better than other men. The fault must be my own.

I am trying to remember those first days and weeks after giving birth. I know that my sexual longing for my husband took a while to return. I recall not wanting to make love. I did not even want to cuddle. At times I felt that if my husband's hand were to accidentally brush against my breast while reaching for the saltshaker, I would saw it off with the butter knife.

Even now I am not always in the mood. By the time the children go to bed, I am as drained as any mother who has spent her day working, car pooling, building Lego castles and shopping for the precisely correct soccer cleat. I am also a compulsive reader. Put together fatigue and bookwormishness, and you could have a situation in which nobody ever gets any. Except that when I catch a glimpse of my husband from the corner of my eye - his smooth, round shoulders, his bright-blue eyes through the magnification of his reading glasses - I fold over the page of my novel.

Sometimes I think I am alone in this obsession with my spouse. Sometimes I think my husband does not feel as I do. He loves the children the way a mother is supposed to. He has put them at the center of his world. But he is a man and thus possesses a strong libido. Having found something to usurp me as the sun of his universe does not mean he wants to make love to me any less.

And yet, he says I am wrong. He says he loves me as I love him. Every so often we escape from the children for a few days. We talk about our love, about how much we love each other's bodies and brains, about the things that make us happy in our marriage.

During the course of these meandering and exhilarating conversations, we touch each other, we start to make love, we stop.

And afterward my husband will say that we, he and I, are the core of what he cherishes, that the children are satellites, beloved but tangential.

He seems entirely unperturbed by loving me like this. Loving me more than his children does not bother him. It does not make him feel like a bad father. He does not feel that loving me more than he loves them is a kind of infidelity.

And neither, I suppose, should I. I should not use that wretched phrase "bad mother." At the very least, I should allow that, if nothing else, I am good enough. I do know this: When I look around the room at the other mothers in the group, I know that I would not change places with any of them.

I wish some learned sociologist would publish a definitive study of marriages where the parents are desperately, ardently in love, where the parents love each other even more than they love the children. It would be wonderful if it could be established, once and for all, that the children of these marriages are more successful, happier, live longer and have healthier lives than children whose mothers focus their desires and passions on them.

BUT even in the likely event that this study is not forthcoming, even in the event that I face a day of reckoning in which my children, God forbid, become heroin addicts or, God forbid, are unable to form decent attachments and wander from one miserable and unsatisfying relationship to another, or, God forbid, other things too awful even to imagine befall them, I cannot regret that when I look at my husband I still feel the same quickening of desire that I felt 12 years ago when I saw him for the first time, standing in the lobby of my apartment building, a bouquet of purple irises in his hands.

And if my children resent having been moons rather than the sun? If they berate me for not having loved them enough? If they call me a bad mother?

I will tell them that I wish for them a love like I have for their father. I will tell them that they are my children, and they deserve both to love and be loved like that. I will tell them to settle for nothing less than what they saw when they looked at me, looking at him.

_Ayelet Waldman is the author of the novel "Daughter's Keeper." This essay is adapted from "Because I Said So: 33 Mothers Write About Children, Sex, Men, Aging, Faith, Race and Themselves" to be published by HarperCollins next month._


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

A while back we had all three of our sons home for dinner (one is out flatting)

The conversation was light and fun centring around who was the 'bestest' son... my youngest asked me " who's your favourite mum??"

Without hesitation I said "Dad!"

You could have heard a pin drop...they hadn't expected that answer!

THEN my youngest asked... "OK...who's your second favourite then"


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## Riverside MFT (Oct 5, 2009)

If it is a first marriage and there are no children from previous relationships, the marriage absolutely comes first. However, if it is a second marriage AND there are kids from a previous relationship (i.e. becoming a "blended family"), the marriage will eventually come first, but there must be a transition period. The kids will come first towards the beginning of the relationship and as they begin to establish trust in their step-parent, the marriage should start becoming a priority again.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

My reaction to that Ayelet Waldman essay is the same as when I originally read it. She sounds annoyingly smug and is making a dichotomy where none needs to be. She sounds like she had some difficulty bonding with her first child. She sounds like she had the very same post-birth, sexual shut-down that other, less enlightened women have. And if she can truly view the loss of her four children with more equanimity than she can the loss of her husband, then she still hasn't really bonded to her children properly.

It's also part of the glorification of mediocre parenting that I find particularly tedious. The whole 'I'm a bad mother and proud of it' bull****. And it's another way to sound cool and on-your-side to men; what man wouldn't like to hear that his wife was sooooo in love with him? 

But anyway, I strongly suspect that whole article was written to stir controversy and get her on Oprah. Mission accomplished.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Morning!

Yes, it's amazing how divisive this perspective (and this article) is. I suppose it's a good sign for our own goals that I emailed it to my wife last night and just texted me that she thought the article was wonderful. 

I suppose I just "get" what Waldman is saying, at least the sentiment behind it (if not all the details). I could just chalk that up to my childless status, and resign myself to the seemingly inescapable fact that parenthood will eventually become the center of my entire universe. It could definitely happen. But talking with more couples, and reading more articles like this, have let me know that others have made it work. 

I have always wanted to be a husband. I have always wanted great love. That dream has come to pass. My wife and I enjoy a very reach, deep, and passionate love story. It is very difficult for us to imagine sacrificing that which we feel must, and should, always come first. We view the idea of children as an extension of that love, not it's reason for being.

Yet I too, almost as long as I've wanted this kind of love in my life, have wanted to father children. Her maternal clock has begun ticking over the last few years. It's going to be amazing to be a dad, and to be a father along side her. She really is unusually warm, empathetic, non-judgemental, and inclusive, and will make such a kind mother. Our future kids are very lucky.

It's going to be very interesting to see if we can continue that perspective, or if the power of becoming parents will so overwhelm that we become second to one another behind these beautiful new creatures.

Regardless, this is fascinating discourse and I thank you all for it. You've given us so much food for thought.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Found the old article! This is actually my very first time reading through it. I only read articles about it, with excerpts, in the past. I would super love to get people's reactions to it:
> 
> *Truly, Madly, Guiltily
> *By AYELET WALDMAN
> ...


An exceptional woman to refuse to buy into the cultural cliche's about children and parenthood we throw around like confetti on New Years.

Great article!


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

A certain amount of selfishness is required once you have children; married or not. I have lived this way since my first child was born almost 23 years ago. My kids have never gone without, but they certainly aren't spoiled brats either.

So, OP, when the time comes, be a little selfish! Kids grow up and move out and move on with their own lives. Where does that leave the couple or parent that makes their children the whole point of their existence? Pretty lonely, I'd imagine.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Morning!
> 
> Yes, it's amazing how divisive this perspective (and this article) is. I suppose it's a good sign for our own goals that I emailed it to my wife last night and just just texted me that she thought the article was wonderful.
> 
> ...


It's amazing how you talk about your wife and your future children!!
She's very luck I guess !


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

So if your wife was in a burning building, you would only save her depending on how you felt about her at that moment? Geebus. 

People think it's one extreme or the other. As if you nurture your marriage and ignore your children. Better yet, lock them in a closet.  

It's a good balance here in the house I live in. Kids have a bedtime which gives us "us" time.

I have seen families where the kids run the roost and it's not very pretty. 

But do what you will...it's your family.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

An acquaintance and colleague of mine is the mother of a 3 year old that STILL won't GO TO BED. He sleeps in their bed...they haven't had sex since before he was born.

NO WONDER SHE'S SO MISERABLE!!!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Screw that. Our kids are in bed by 8 and 9. Then we go to bed around 10/11.  

People forget that they were a COUPLE before they were mommy and daddy. They lose that sexiness and desire to be a couple and it all goes to shet.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Screw that. Our kids are in bed by 8 and 9. Then we go to bed around 10/11.
> 
> People forget that they were a COUPLE before they were mommy and daddy. They lose that sexiness and desire to be a couple and it all goes to shet.


Well, this particular woman has forgotten that she was a PERSON before her son was born; we were close friends, but since I reminded her of that, she's since stopped talking to me.

How dare I insinuate that she should have her own life AND be a mother????


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Well, this particular woman has forgotten that she was a PERSON before her son was born; we were close friends, but since I reminded her of that, she's since stopped talking to me.
> 
> How dare I insinuate that she should have her own life AND be a mother????


I dated a man who lived for his daughter. He had no hobbies, no outside life...it was his daughter's life, all the time.

She was a cutie too  But when I asked him what he likes to do for fun, everything included his daughter. That's great he's a good dad, but...he's a man too.

Yea. No thanks. I politely excused myself from that relationship.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Don't blame ya there...who wants to compete for attention? If that's what the guy wants, then fine, but ya. I get why you excused yourself from that one!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Don't blame ya there...who wants to compete for attention? If that's what the guy wants, then fine, but ya. I get why you excused yourself from that one!


It wasn't about competing...as I had a child too. But it was the fact that the man could NOT have a conversation about anything other than his kid. BORING! :sleeping: He didn't have any interests or dreams...wtf.

:sleeping: lolol I'm a wife and a mother, but I have hobbies and dreams and desires for my self and future.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Well, that's what I meant; not necessarily competing for the attention of the man, but the # 1 spot in the man's life...

That will always go to me


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

that_girl said:


> So if your wife was in a burning building, you would only save her depending on how you felt about her at that moment? Geebus.
> *Geebus? Yes, assuming I had already rescued my children, I would not commit suicide to try and rescue her if that would leave my children without any parents. If I assessed that the risk was doable I would go after her. If my daughters were trapped in a burning building I would go in even if the odds that I would die were 100%.*
> 
> ..........
> ...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

This entire thread needs to be required reading for new and perspective parents. Such a rich wealth of good advice.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

In theory that is an awesome philosophy. In practice? As a father nothing comes before my kids. Not my marriage, not my wife, not my own mother. Nothing.

I would burn a fiery death while listening to Rush Limbaugh for those girls.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

I don't think anyone would dispute a life or death situation, but really, you do have to keep hold of yourself and keep on living your own life.

I had D when I was 19; I took care of him, but even more important (and FIRST before anything else) I took care of myself. And really, I never knew any other way, since I was never going to be one of these mommies whose lives revolve around babies and recipies.

He's 22 now and doesn't seem to be suffering the ill effects of my keeping up with my own life throughout the years. I'm really proud of the way he turned out. He learned (from me) how to take care of himself. He moved out 4 years ago and we speak almost everyday.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Now I know that many people believe that children automatically become your top familial priority the moment they arrive. At this point, only looking at this hypothetically, we don't find any merit in having our marriage take a backseat to children. Does anyone else, namely parents, subscribe to the idea of your marriage coming first in your family? If so, can you share some thoughts?


I agree with your theory. Your kids are only children for a relatively short time (10-12 years) before they start doing their own thing and asserting some real independence. Eventually they leave the nest, and even if they do not for some time (going to college, working and saving money, etc.) you will likely see them for only a short time each day and maybe not even that. Think back to when you were a young adult. If you don't stay connected with your spouse, what do you have then?

Caveat: your children do depend on you and have needs, esp. when young. If you need to travel or work 12 hour days to pay the bills, or you have a special-needs child (which can be very demanding), then that will have to take priority.

ETA: After reading other comments, it seems wise to add that being a loving, committed couple also benefits the children. So, it's not a dichotomous, "either - or" thing. Having the spouses be good to each other allows you to be better parents to your children as well.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea. Our little one knows JUST the moment of penetration (when we sneak away for a quicky) and comes knockin. We laugh every time...get her busy again...and get it done


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Yea. Our little one knows JUST the moment of penetration (when we sneak away for a quicky) and comes knockin. We laugh every time...get her busy again...and get it done


Yeah WTF is up with that?

My wife says it`s an evolutionary trait in children that guarantees they won`t have to share any resources with new siblings because it`s not possible to actually have any new siblings if they use this magic/timing/interruption super power they have..


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

It's SOOO funny! She will be playing nicely for 30 minutes by herself...not even noticing what we're doing. We sneak away and BAM! She's knockin' saying, "HEY! WHO LOCKED THIS DOOR! OPEN UP!"

:rofl:

omg...lollll Hubs always says it's like sneaking around the parents.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Morning!
> 
> Yes, it's amazing how divisive this perspective (and this article) is. I suppose it's a good sign for our own goals that I emailed it to my wife last night and just texted me that she thought the article was wonderful.
> 
> I suppose I just "get" what Waldman is saying, at least the sentiment behind it (if not all the details). I could just chalk that up to my childless status, and resign myself to the seemingly inescapable fact that parenthood will eventually become the center of my entire universe. It could definitely happen. But talking with more couples, and reading more articles like this, have let me know that others have made it work.


I read that article before I had kids and I thought it was wonderful too. Sorry Jaquen, it's really annoying when people do that. Anyway, I didn't actually think it was wonderful because I found the tone patronizing and smug, but I did think it was a lovely romantic idea. Now I think it's kind of horrifying.

I just can't get past the fact that she has basically written she would prefer her children die than her husband. You know, my husband and I do put each other first in lots of ways. Our kids are asleep by 7.30 each night. We have two designated date nights a week (at home, babysitting isn't really available). We have sex two to four times a week. We love each other and show it in many different ways.

But. But, but, but. Dying? If my children died, I would die too. That's how it feels. If they died my heart would stop. I know that's not literally true, but that is the emotional truth to how I love them. If my husband died I would grieve for years. I would never really get over it. I would never fall in love again. He is it for me. But I would go on living. I would have to, for my girls.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

OK... I've been thinking about this thread... 

I pretty much vote for putting marriage first but if I'm honest when the boys were babies...I put them first. Can't speak for H.

They NEEDED me/us for EVERYTHING.... now so much. Their 13, 16 and 25 yr old.

It's like mother nature has you come together and fall in love/lust...pumps out those bonding hormones. Then you have a baby and a huge amount of your time and energy goes towards this beautiful little baby that you are both madly in love with.

Then the time for your marriage comes back...slowly over the years as the children get older and more independant.
I believe it's all part of the 'letting go' (or pushing out depending on the Kids) process.

Nowadays as a couple we have so many opportunities to be alone..like when we were dating. We might just go to the shops and none of the boys want to come so me and H go together, maybe stop for a coffee (or wine) at a nice cafe.
10 years ago we often dragged crabby toddlers around the supermarket... in those days the wine was more medicinal.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Speaking of morbid situations...

I have played that horrid "Sophie's Choice" scenario of the doctor coming to me while my wife is in childbirth, and saying that there is a major problem; my wife is unconscious, and that they likely can only save mother or child.

It makes me feel guilty, but my automatic inclination is to save her. While I believe my wife would want me to save our child.

I don't like to dwell on that type of hypothetical for long, as it's upsetting. But that thought has crossed my mind more than once.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Speaking of morbid situations...
> 
> I have played that horrid "Sophie's Choice" scenario of the doctor coming to me whole my wife is in childbirth, and saying that there is a major problem; my wife is unconscious, and that they likely can only save mother or child.


It would be my wife without hesitation.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Speaking of morbid situations...
> 
> I have played that horrid "Sophie's Choice" scenario of the doctor coming to me whole my wife is in childbirth, and saying that there is a major problem; my wife is unconscious, and that they likely can only save mother or child.
> 
> ...


Oh, I've had these morbid thoughts as well and the idea freaks me out.
If I were asked, then I'd definitely choose me over the child. God forgive me, but me and my man could have other kids on the way. 
It would not be fair for our marriage and my husband to choose the unborn kid over me.


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## gav (Nov 13, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> I totally agree with that_girl. Early bedtimes are a sanity saver. I love being able to have a glass of wine when my kid goes down for sleep and it allows me to progress more naturally towards being FrenchFry and not MomFry.


Concur. Best thing we ever did was set early bedtimes (earlier than all their friends, which we are occasionally reminded of, but I'm ok with that)

Bedtimes are pretty much set in stone. And we love it this way.


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

Angel5112 said:


> We only had one person answer, without a doubt, that if there ever came a situation where it was his kids, or his wife, that he would choose his wife. His wife was his life, he said.


I wonder how he would feel about his 'life' if she decided to leave him for another man? The husband and wife bond doesn't last 50% of the time, so what does that say?


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Vanton68 said:


> I would spit in that guy's face if I ever met him. He should NEVER BE CALLED a "Father". A real father would have saved his daughter (and then his wife) or DIED trying. Nothing less than death would stop me from saving my loved ones. What a pathetic piece of crap!


Me, I just feel badly for the guy for having to make a horrible choice like that in the first place, and pray I never face that dilemna.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Vanton68 said:


> I would spit in that guy's face if I ever met him. He should NEVER BE CALLED a "Father". A real father would have saved his daughter (and then his wife) or DIED trying. Nothing less than death would stop me from saving my loved ones. What a pathetic piece of crap!


Wow. I am glad to meet the final arbitrator on these matters, though the feableness of your mind shows through in your inability to entertain that others may have a different point of view.


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Wow. I am glad to meet the final arbitrator on these matters, though the feableness of your mind shows through in your inability to entertain that others may have a different point of view.


 You misspelled feebleness genius. I understand that other people have different thoughts on this matter. What I don't understand is the failure of a man to save those that he loved, OR at least to die trying.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

This is crazy.

I`m one that said my wife would be saved before my child IF IN CHILDBIRTH I HAD TO MAKE A CHOICE.

This seems perfectly reasonable to me (Although "reasonable" is not prevalent in this thread) as I have no attachment to this child who hasn`t even been born yet.

My wife on the other hand is my world, the child I never even met.

We could go on to have many children if I saved my wife.
Without her I`m raising a child alone in the world.

Any other choice is stupid to me.

Now if a maniac came in my house right now and put a gun to my wife and child's head I`d be choosing my child.
Again, because this is reasonable to me for sooo many reasons.

My child is eleven and has the potential to live a fantastic fulfilling life.
My wife has had 40+ years of life.
My wife would hate me if she witnessed the death of our child done so on my say so.
We wouldn`t survive as a couple after such an event.

This of course is all moot and not at all the point of this thread but ...meh, do we ever stay on point?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Vanton68 said:


> You misspelled feebleness genius. I understand that other people have different thoughts on this matter. What I don't understand is the failure of a man to save those that he loved, OR at least to die trying.


That you cannot understand that only shows your arrogance. There are clearly situations where to die trying is stupid and would only result in the loss of your life with no hope of actually saving the person. Yet in your self righteous assurance, you would spit in the face of a person who did not meet what you perceive to be the correct decision, despite you knowing nothing of the facts. I sincerely hope you do not plan to pass down that level of judgment to your children.

Edit - I should also add that you provided a clear "answer" to who should be saved first, and noted that someone who did not save the child first did not deserve to be called a father. I am not seeing much in the way of understanding of others view points there.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

If my husband saved me instead of one of our girls from a submerged car I don't think I could forgive him. He is one who would try to save us all to the point of killing himself, but I am confident that if it really really came down to it, he would save our daughters. It's part of why I love him. 

I don't need to come first in all the world to him. I'm fine with third place!

I know he'd choose me in the childbirth scenario though, not that that ever really happens anymore. Neither he or I fully bonded with our babies until they were born.


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

This guy NC Special Forces soldier dies trying to save kids | Eyewitness News 9 is a true hero. Such a tragic story, but I wouldn't say what he did was pointless. 

I am a passionate person, and I apologize if I have offended. I am not able to accept failure in the life-or-death scenario; if I did fail, my price would be my very life. Tall- the only thing these girls are being handed down, is my unwavering commitment to their safety and security. 

As far as every day life, there has to be a balance as some posters have pointed out.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Vanton68 said:


> I wonder how he would feel about his 'life' if she decided to leave him for another man? The husband and wife bond doesn't last 50% of the time, so what does that say?


A father's bond doesn't always last either. 

I was left by my father at age 2 and then by my step-father at age 18. 

So...I dunno. It's not always so black and white.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

And as far as the situation is concerned, none of us can really say what we'd do until we're in the situation. Maybe the daughter was more difficult to get out...should he have focused on that and let both of them die?

I don't judge that shet. He did what he thought he could do. God forbid ANY of us are ever in that situation and then judged for our choice. Geebus.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

tacoma said:


> This is crazy.
> 
> I`m one that said my wife would be saved before my child IF IN CHILDBIRTH I HAD TO MAKE A CHOICE.
> 
> ...


I agree with you in that situation. You can always make another baby...can't make another wife. (Not the one you have anyway).


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Wow...imagine how many seconds he had to make that decision. One that he no doubt thinks about every day. Poor man.

I think today my H would save me but only because I'm the smallest and probably the weakest in my house nowadays. When the boys were babies and children I would have wanted him to try and save them before me and I know he feels the same.

But Heck... what a nightmare situation to be in.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Vanton68 said:


> You misspelled feebleness genius. I understand that other people have different thoughts on this matter. What I don't understand is the failure of a man to save those that he loved, OR at least to die trying.



He did save his loved one. His wife. Maybe he has a stronger bond with his wife than you do yours, so it's impossible for you to fathom that in that split second he chose her.

Or maybe it was an excruciating, impossible choice, and there was a greater chance of saving his wife than their daughter, and he chose to save one instead of letting them ALL die as he tried to do the impossible.

Your reaction amazes me in that you don't have the details, yet have completely judged another human being you don't know, who was put in the kind of position most people could never fathom.


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## blessedtatormom (Jun 4, 2012)

A happy marriage, and happy parents, make happy kids, in my opinion. Our kids are still in the toddler/pre-k stage, but I guess since we get enough breaks from them now we enjoy 99% of it and find their meltdowns to be hysterical. We're lucky to live right next to a drop in day care :smthumbup: The first year of our first child was a big adjustment, but our youngest was born 12months later and we didn't feel that there was any adjustment at all with our second. Clearly we didn't have any issue in the intimacy department after having kids.  It's actually a lot more fun and spontaneous after having kids! Going from a couple to a family naturally comes with an adjustment period. I married my husband when I was 19 and he was 26, right at the end of his military commitment. He had served quite awhile in an Army SpecOps unit (lots of deployments) and came out with some moderate/severe PTSD issues, and we worked through them. I ended up developing autoimmune problems after our youngest was born, but we got it all under control. Needless to say we had our challenges, but we face(d) them as a team. Outside of the 3 A's(Abuse, Adultry, Addiction to illegal drugs) divorce is not an option for us. We definitely put our marriage first, and as a result we are the best parents possible to our kids. My husband got his B.A. after leaving the military and then I went to nursing school during his last few yrs. We did this with 2 infants and zero support(at the time) outside of each other. My husband is now going back to school doing an acclerated MSN program, so that he can still have a successful career, but also have more family time. I'm very lucky that I met a man who places a priority on our marriage and family, but also provides very well and is very driven. I guess we're busy. I'm in my MSN program too. Things are much less so than when our kids were little though. We have no problem finding time to enjoy our marriage. 

After almost 7yrs, I still tell my husband 'thank you' every time he takes me out or does something special for me. He also tells me every day that I'm beautiful, he loves me, etc and now our son's tell me that too. They definitely pick up on how daddy treats mommy! He always does thoughtful things for me, as I do for him, and I make sure to let him know how much I appreciate it. We're now trying for our 3rd baby and he's beyond excited about it. He loved when I was pregnant though. My husband is a guy who is very comfortable talking about emotions and is all about open communication. There was a time, about 2 months ago, when I sat down next to him and said, "our sex life has sucked the past few weeks". We then quickly remedied the situation. Love, respect, and being comofortable/encouraging with open communication is key. As long as you've got that, kids will enhance your relationship, not hurt it. Obviously there are a lot of spouses that might have been offended if their other half said something like that. To my husband it was just like, "okay let's go!".


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