# He's very remorseful BUT I'm not sure I want this M anymore...



## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

My H and I have been together for 18 years. Both of us early 40's. 3 kids - 7, 14,17

We started having problems about 5 years ago. We went to counselling twice but H but both times, we dropped out because H said it wasn't working for him. I attended a session alone once and the counsellor told me I deserved better. He said that H was immature, played emotional mind games and thought of marriage as a competition. Anyway, our M continued to go downhill. I would try to talk to my H about my feelings but he always discounted my unhappiness. He often didn't treat me as an equal partner. For instance, he decided we should go into business with his father without discussing it with me first and told me what he discussed with his father was none of my business. 

I eventually gave up on our M due to frustration and hopelessness, and seriously contemplated leaving. I shared this with my H who made excuses, got angry but seemed unwilling to make changes. I felt like I was doing all the work on our M so I withdrew and put my efforts into my career instead.

Sex had dwindled to twice a year at this point. There was little emotional intimacy but we were still affectionate and kind to one another most of the time.

About 18 months ago, my H met a married woman in a bar who also claimed she was also in a bad marriage and 2 weeks later he took her on a business trip. He didn't fall into an affair. They planned it. He said I rejected him sexually and she made it obvious she was interested so he decided he could get himself some sex because she seemed easy. 

The A went on for 6 months during which H became a different person. He ignored the kids. He was impatient and quick to anger. I knew something was wrong but didn't suspect an A as they saw each other very infrequently.

After 6 months, H broke off the A due to guilt and because he claimed he wanted to give our M another try. Although, he now admits he never actually worked on the M during that time, and still expected me to do all the work and make him feel wanted. 

4 months later H decided we were done (once again he didn't bother to tell me) and got back together with OW. This time he told her he was leaving me and moving out. His behaviour during this time was even worse. He often drank too much and started fights over the most ridiculous issues. Accused me of not liking sex, asked me if I wanted him to get a girlfriend. I asked him what was going on and he would deny, deny, deny. Often the next morning, he would apologize. After 3 months of this, he asked for a D. I offered to pack up his clothes for him because at this point I was pretty fed up with the emotional abuse.

He said after asking for a D, he regretted it immediately so he began reading books on marriage.

He quickly realized that he still loved me and that he had just been angry and hurt. He broke up with OW a couple weeks after asking for a D and she lost her mind. She claimed he owed her and screamed, cried, and begged for hours in person and by phone. She said that she had waited for him for a year, asked her H to leave and therefore he should be with her. She said if he left her, she would tell me about the A and destroy our M. 

During this time, OW was calling the house numerous times a day using a blocked number and hanging up. I thought it was telemarkers. Apparently, I'm that stupid. H thought she would give up and go away but she would not stop so he finally told her it was absolutely over. He would never see her again and she needed to accept it. He started counselling on his own to figure out how to save the M.

Weeks later, OW called without blocking her number. I asked about the name on the call display and he admitted the whole thing. He said he started it for sex. Then got caught up in the admiration. She wanted him and I did not so he thought he had real feelings for her. Then once he had to face actually divorcing me, she didn't look like such a prize. He realized that affairs are built on lies and deceit and the whole second life thing was killing him. (He was drinking too much, crying often, developed skin issues, heart palpitations, weight gain).

He begged me not to kick him out and to please consider trying to reconcile. That he would wait until I was ready...

I didn't kick him out because of our kids but I have no idea where I'm at because I'm still angry, hurt and still not sure if I can do this and it's over 8 months later. He said it will take time and from what he's read, most likely 2-5 years for me to feel safe again. He claims he absolutely understands my doubts but that now he is going to be the husband that I should have had all along. He said the A was the biggest mistake of his life. He claims he was selfish, immature and entitled and that he used the excuse of his needs not being met to start an A but that it was not a justification at all. That he had other options but he chose to act like a loser who lied and cheated and he is disgusted with himself and his horrible actions. He said he will never make such an appalling decision again. 

For the past 8 1/2 months, he has certainly said and done all the right things. He asks to spend a lot of time with me, calls, texts me every hour when he is at work. Sends photos to prove who he is with and where. He is home most of the time when he is not working. He takes me on trips and makes an effort to tell me he loves me many times a day. He offers to rub my back or my feet and pampers me when he can tell I'm struggling. He said his guilt over how he has hurt me will be with him the rest of his life. He said OW was never my competition at all. Just someone who wanted him when I did not but that she is not who he wants and never was. He was confused during that time and very angry because he felt I rejected him first. However, he claims that he has learned so much from this and will now do whatever it takes to help me heal.

He's saying and doing all the right things but now I'm the angry one. I was unhappy too. I tried to talk to him. We could have gone to counselling and fixed our M but he chose to make it worse and now he's happy to still be here and I'm in constant emotional pain.

I love him but I'm not sure I can ever get past the betrayal. He started the A right before a very big career milestone for me, which he knew he would be attending the next day. He started an A and then acted like my supportive happy husband in front of my friends and colleagues. The memory of that milestone is ruined forever. And he took this skank on a business trip to the very place where we celebrated our honeymoon. I'm obsessed with those two details.

I don't look at him the same way anymore. Something in me has died and I'm not sure I can get it back.

I know I've made my share of mistakes in this M but I was always faithful. And I had opportunities.

How can you ever trust again after infidelity? Is it really possible? I've read the success stories but can't even begin to understand how it's possible. He acts wonderful and sweet and so loving but I am still having so many doubts.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

You and your husband share responsibility for problems in the marriage 50/50.

The affair is 100% on him. Like you, he could have remained faithful.

From what you have written, it doesn't even look like the affair upset you all that much and that is an indication of how bad your marriage really is.

So what are you looking for? 

Confirmation that you should divorce him? My spouse and I would be divorced if she had done what your husband has.

You know what is best for you. You know where the line in the sand is for you. If he has crossed it then file the papers.

I find it hard to believe that he suddenly had an epiphany that he love and cares about you and wants to change. Did he go through a traumatic event recently? Death or severe illness in the family? Sometimes something like that can actually open a persons eyes to reality.

Bottom line is that it is all up to you now.

Edit: Yes, some here have reconciled successfully and say that their marriage is better than before. Maybe they can direct you to their stories.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I have felt the same as you. The way I knew how I really felt was when I was in danger of losing him! 

If he is now acting like a 'sap' or a 'doormat' due to his guilt then that does not make him attractive, it allows your anger at him to flourish, and the combined effort of keeping the marriage together from both sides to be amiss. It allows you to now make no effort because all the effort should now come from him as he did all the damage. This makes for an imbalance. And that imbalance allows your anger to overcome and confuse your real feelings of whether you want to keep him or not. I don't know if you want this marriage it not, and his behaviour has changed so much that he is no longer the man you married...in his 'new' self as well as his 'had an affair' new and alien personality. But just in the way of BS way of dealing with WW, the threat of losing the spouse makes us realise exactly how we feel.

I don't know if this makes any sense to you or not, if my situation has an afinity with yours or not. I had to tell my man to 'man' up' and not become a wimp due to his worry of us being over. I did not find that attractive. Love, thoughtfulness, care, pampering...yes. Wimp & doormat...no!


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Zanna, it's ok to divorce. You will go on, he will go on. Everyone will go on, but on a different path than if you were together. 

I get the sense that you feel that having fought for the marriage that you now need to be also wanting it, but his repeated betrayal and choosing the OW over you has left you scarred and scared. 

Your choices are: 1) to stick it out and see if it turns around. IC during this time might help; 2) call it quits and move on; 3) use a trial separation to give yourself time to think.

Normally I'm very against separation, but in your case where you on one hand want the marriage, but on the other hand don't really want the man your married too. It might give you space to decide which you want more.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

TDSC60 - I am very upset about the affair. I'm upset that he stole my choices. That he quit counselling and then decided to start an A and then when that didn't work out in his favor, or turn out to be the magic solution for him and OW turned out to be a bunny boiler and emotionally needy and crazy, suddenly he wants me and our M. So yes, I'm very upset and very angry. He knew it was wrong and he did it anyway. And yes, I am considering D because even though he seems remorseful, I don't know if I will ever trust him again. He's urging me to consider our shared history and the fact that we love each other and that we went through crisis time in our marriage but where was his rational 18 months ago?

And yes, his mother died but that was shortly before he started the A. So she died and he decided to chuck our family and our marriage away. I don't have a lot of respect for him as a man or as a father. 

Remains, I do know what you mean but if he was acting like he didn't care, that wouldn't go over well either. Like I said, I'm very confused. I'm not sure what I want because either choice will be painful.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

You must understand something. For many of us an affair is a deal breaker that merits divorce. It doesn't makes us any better or any worse than the folks who are willing to R (reconcile) after their spouse has an affair. What is important is that you be absolutely certain which side you fall into. Like it or not, you will have to live with your decision and so you have to make sure that you will be at peace with it.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Zanna, it's ok to divorce. You will go on, he will go on. Everyone will go on, but on a different path than if you were together.
> 
> I get the sense that you feel that having fought for the marriage that you now need to be also wanting it, but his repeated betrayal and choosing the OW over you has left you scarred and scared.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Shaggy. Yes, I have suggested a separation and he's very against it. He keeps trying to talk me out of it because he feels we will heal together in the same house. He also claims he will miss me too much. Yes, now he suddenly seems to realize what he's losing but when he was taking OW, a disgusting tramp that he just met in a bar, to the place where he celebrated his honeymoon with his wife, he really didn't seem to care what he was destroying!

I have suggested he move out after the kids finish the school year and he says he's not going anywhere...


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

morituri said:


> You must understand something. For many of us an affair is a deal breaker that merits divorce. It doesn't makes us any better or any worse than the folks who are willing to R (reconcile) after their spouse has an affair. What is important is that you be absolutely certain which side you fall into. Like it or not, you will have to live with your decision and so you have to make sure that you will be at peace with it.


I always said it was my dealbreaker until it happened and then suddenly he was trying to talk me out of it and I was looking at the destruction of my family and my kid's pain and it wasn't that simple anymore.

If we had been married for a shorter time period and we didn't have kids, my choice would be easier.

It's the shared history, the good years and the love we still share.

But then there's the betrayal and the horrible way he treated me for so long and I feel that he does not deserve me.

I have no idea which side I fall on anymore. That's why i'm trying to sort it out because I have to live with this decision for the rest of my life.

Sadly, he didn't think of any of this before he made what he calls the most regrettable decision of his life. So disgusted with him.

If I wanted to end my M, I would allow my spouse some dignity and treat them with respect. I don't understand cheaters at all. Selfish, selfish people.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Zanna~

Hi! Before I respond to you I'd like to introduce myself a little. In my first marriage, my exH was physically, emotionally and verbally abusive, and I don't mean that he balled up his fist and hit me in the face--no it was more subtle like grabbing my arm until it felt like it would break, smashing the wall RIGHT next to my head, kicking my pets in his anger, pushing me onto the floor or into a wall, forcing me to some position (like kneeling)... stuff like that. I know what it can be like being with an abusive spouse. In addition, my ex was the one who had an affair and in the end it was one from which we could not recover, but about 99.99% because he would not address his anger issues or change! For transparency, in my second marriage I was the one who had an affair, and I have to tell ya it is probably the thing I regret the most in the world, that I would stoop to such behavior. It's embarrassing! But thankfully my second marriage is a LOT better, and we were able to work through everything. To this day we are happily married, and so I am living proof that even when a couple gets pretty far off track, you can indeed reconcile, fall back in love, and be happy. 

I'm responding to you here tonight because I think it is entirely reasonable for you to need more than just a few months to get past this and heal....and yet I do have a few thoughts that may help you a bit. One thing I do notice is that prior to your H's "awakening" (for whatever reason, the scales fell off his eyes), that you really did have to endure a *LOT* of behavior that was pretty abusive and hurtful. If you were to envision that your heart is a tree stump, and each one of his hurtful words was a nail, he may be working now on removing those nails (and I am very glad to hear that it sounds like he's had quite a change)...but once those nails are removed that does not in any way mean that the HOLE isn't still there!! Thus, it makes some common sense to me that even though he is doing the right things and saying the right things....that you still feel pretty hurt! I'd say that is not surprising to be honest. And I'd encourage you to just recognize that when someone breaks a hip or breaks a thigh bone...those are major injuries and it just doesn't recover quickly or all at once. In fact, months and sometimes years can go by and it's still not entirely healed...but it is HEAL-ING. So I'd say what you're feeling is natural. 

Second, from what I can see it seems that there may be an issue getting in the way of your healing, and that's the inaccurate idea that once you do heal, it will "be like it once was" (in other words, back in the day when you felt loved and/or when he acted loving). In real life this is very much like breaking a thigh bone in that the bone itself may begin to knit back together but in some ways that bone is never quite as strong as it once was...is never quite the same as it was...never really quite stops aching. It's life. The fact of the matter is that the bone can "heal" but from the point of that break forward it just will never again be the bone it once was. It is no longer a bone that was never broken and is not longer the young, strong, perfect bone: it is a bone that broke! It heals and it can be strong once again, but it's strong as the broken bone. 

Do you see what I mean there? You're marriage is kind of like that. Before this affair, you had an image or definition in your head of what you thought your marriage was--maybe something like "We may fight but we love each other too much to ever cheat and that will never happen to us"... and now that image is broken. You will never BE that again. Now part of that image was being naive and believing stuff even though you could see evidence to the contrary...sort of denying it to yourself...but part of it was the beautiful innocence of young love, first love, and faithful love. So part of your "GRIEF" (so to speak) is that you are grieving because your unbroken bone is gone; your innocent image of what you thought your marriage was is gone.

If you want to reconcile and recover your marriage, here is a very tough piece of gristle to chew on: you are going to have to let go of that unbroken bone. It's gone and no matter how sad you are, it won't come back. Furthermore, even if you do divorce this husband and marry another, you won't get the young love, first love, faithful love bone back because your new hubby would have an exW and "his" kids to support and/or raise, and you'd have an exH and "her" kids to support and/or raise...and trust me that's like trying to manage TWO broken bones!! It's harder (not easier)!! So that one thing I would strongly recommend that you start to come-to-grips-with is that the bone BROKE and the unbroken bone is not ever, Ever, EVER coming back. You'll probably need to cry about that for a while. 

Next, once you can sort of accept that "Okay...it broke. It is what it is" you can look at the man, as he is NOW and make a conscious decision. Either decide to be the kind of woman who honors her vows and keeps her promises even when the going gets EXTREMELY TOUGH and then rebuild something altogether new with the man your husband is today (like as if he is a new guy)....

OR

..decide to be the kind of woman who will only have a partner in her life who gives 100% of his affection and loyalty to you, and you are not able to rebuild with the same person who gave so much less than 100% for so many years. 

The thing is, I suspect that deep down you really WANT to rebuild but you just don't know how to let go of all the hurt and resentment and pain from over the years--all the lies, the looking in your eyes and telling you that you're crazy--the blaming you--all of it. If you decide that you do want to rebuild, one way you can do it is to say "Okay, I'm going to have to release as much of what happened in the past as I can, and that means I can't hold it over his head like a weapon to get my way." I would recommend maybe writing a list of everything he's ever done that just tore you apart, writing exactly what you think in your heart (swear words and everything!!) and then do something symbolic to let those things go. Burn the list. Throw it on the grill and as the smoke goes up from the flame, you let it go. Light the list with a match and let the ashes be fertilizer for a new bleeding heart plant (get it...bleeding heart?  ). The point is, they are gone; let them go. Then look at who he is NOW...how he acts NOW...how he treats you NOW...and just be neutral. Give him the chance to show you the changes and maybe win you back. I'm not saying "put him through the mill to get you" but more like "I will be neither positive nor negative and you have the opportunity to show me what it could be like...this New Marriage." 

When a thigh bone breaks, it is never the unbroken bone again. But if you do physical therapy, it can be strong again. It can rebuild into a strong bone again. It's just a bone that has that scar...something new.


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## JustMe321 (May 9, 2012)

Zanna - 

I'm so sorry for what you have been through. 

Your story could be mine in a lot of ways. My WS and I did not have a perfect marriage before his affairs. This added to the difficulty of trying to R with him after. Now he seems to be a different guy (or at least trying to be) but it's not like our only issue is his showing remorse for the A. I need to work on all the 'other' issues, but this just overshadows everything. It's a lot to try and work on at once. And for me, I'm finding it very hard, well damn near impossible to move forward. Like you, I'm not sure R is what I want. 

Those events that stick with you, the ones that you replay in your mind that bother you the most, those thoughts just don't seem to go away. At least for me. We are almost a year and half out and I still get find myself almsot...shocked...by his choices. Like you, his A was going on right over major events in our life. Birthdays, anniversaries, graduations. Special days forever ruined.

I've gotten some really insightful responses here and I think you will too. One of the folks here told me to not jump into R and I think that's right. I need to remember that I have whatever time I need to make decisions and so do you.

Thoughts are with you.

JM321


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## sunshinetoday (Mar 7, 2012)

Hello, since your H is remorseful and trying, if you can give it some more time you should. It takes so long to get over such a betrayal. Time helps alot. If you can't then you have every right to ask for a D. 

_-- Sent from my Palm Pixi using Forums_


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Zanna said:


> Thanks,Yes, now he suddenly seems to realize what he's losing but when he was taking OW, a disgusting tramp that he just met in a bar, to the place where he celebrated his honeymoon with his wife, he really didn't seem to care what he was destroying!
> 
> ..


I am in a similar place. My husband took his OW to my favorite restaurants. Restaurants that were too pricey for anything other than very special occasions. Yet he took here there often just on dates. 

I know from a jungian perspective, he must have known on some emotional level that doing so would hurt me. 

My hypothesis about cheaters is that they are unhappy with themselves, blame their spouses and then hurt them by having an affair. 

The affair is a form of emotional abuse and it is designed to slap down the spouse. 

She is also stalking me and starting trouble in many ways. 

I am thinking of filing and have an appointment with the divorce attorney. My husband however does not want a divorce. 

I am staying single forever, If I divorce. Can't trust myself to choose wisely because I was so blindside by his affair.


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## 38m3kids (Sep 29, 2011)

Almost 2 years out and finally accepting that love and marriage will NEVER be the same as a few poster have mentioned. I stay/stayed mostly because of my love for my children and family lifestyle. I miss truely loving my wife, and treatingher like royalty. Now.. sex is sex, and that's about the extent of my feeling for her other than my appreciation for her as the mother of my children. I envy those who can truely R, or Divorce and find a new happiness. I'm not miserable.. but im content with being content... at least for now.. Good luck!


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## JustMe321 (May 9, 2012)

38m3kids said:


> I envy those who can truely R, or Divorce and find a new happiness. I'm not miserable.. but im content with being content... at least for now.. Good luck!


Wow, I don't think I could have put it closer to my truth than that.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Affaircare, thank you for your well-written and thoughtful post. Much of what you said really resonated with me. It's taken me a while to respond as I've been very busy with work and haven't logged on but I have been reading the board. Also, I have been trying not to obsess about whether I want to R or D because my contant vacillating was driving me crazy. 

I'm still not sure I can get past this but I did read somewhere recently to get your marriage in the best shape possibly before deciding if you want to end it after an affair.

So I am trying. Instead of being cold and distant, I am allowing my H to hug me and show me affections. Instead of rejecting him, I am responding positively even when I don't feel like it. I can't say that the good feelings or the love is always there but it is at times.

We have been spending a lot of time together and making love daily and I can tell he's happy and hopeful. Last night, at dinner he told me he's been such an idiot in our relationship and that he hopes I will give him the chance to make me happy and be the husband he should have always been. He said when he reflects back on his past behaviour, he's embarrassed by his poor coping skills and by all the blame he heaped upon me. While that feels nice to hear now. I am resentful. Why could he not listen to my unhappiness or express his before he got involved with such a revolting tramp? Now I have to endure more emotional turmoil because he could not make a rational moral decision when it was simple and obvious.

Now my decision is definitely not simple or obvious.

It certainly doesn't help that his insane ex-OW took to stalking me and bombarding me with nasty emails.

Threatening her with a restraining order put an end to the emails but she's still lurking about my online profiles.

She clearly has not given up and every time I am reminded of this, I get angry. Very angry. I have to look over my shoulder for a crazy person thanks to my H's poor decisions. This OW is nuts and I wonder what she's truly capable of. She wanted my H desperately. And she thinks that us reconciling is unfair to her because get this, she said he owed her. I guess his wife and mother of his children and the one with the marriage license was owed nothing but being a sleazy tramp that sleeps with married men... well that entitles you to being "owed".


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Don't put pressure on yourself to R or D. Consider informing your cheating husband that as far as you are concerned, you still have not made a choice because you are not sure that you want to be married to him. He needs to know that his betrayal isn't something that can be easily dismissed and be swept under the rug. If he wants a shot at R, then he is going to have to work his butt off in order to regain your trust and that is not a one shot deal but a consistent pattern of behaviors over time - years - that will match his actions to his words. Even then you still reserve the right to D him.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Thanks, moituri. I've expressed that to him and he seems to get it. He said he knows it will take years and that I will never quite feel the same about him again. I've asked him if he's willing to live with that and he says he is because the alternative of not being with me is far more painful. He seems to get it but that in itself makes me mad because why is he so reasonable and mature now?!

What do cheaters need to cheat before they realize how stupid they are? :scratchhead:


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Because cheaters do not stop to think that their actions will devastate their spouses and families. They are so wrapped up in the pleasure of the moment - attention or sex - that they are receiving from their AP to give a damn about anybody but themselves. Sadly it's only when the sh!t hits the fan that they finally see what they have done to those who totally trusted them above all others.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

OW pinning it the sweetest revenge you can have. Focus on you nad your marriage if it's what you want. Let OW dye is selfpity and laugh at it. Hopely she'd become alcoholic over it.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

morituri said:


> Because cheaters do not stop to think that their actions will devastate their spouses and families. They are so wrapped up in the pleasure of the moment - attention or sex - that they are receiving from their AP to give a damn about anybody but themselves. Sadly it's only when the sh!t hits the fan that they finally see what they have done to those who totally trusted them above all others.


Yes, this is what my H said. He was too angry at me to care how I felt so therefore he felt justified and entitled. He also assumed he would never get caught but then realized he also couldn't live with the guilt. Of course by then it was too late. He got himself into counselling to figure out how to tell me about the A. Then OW stepped up her threats because he wasn't moving out as promised and he kept trying to end the A. He ended up blurting it all out instead of thinking it out thoroughly.

If he was going to be so manipulative, why didn't he just tell OW he told me, I threw him out and he was still going to dump her anyway.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Acabado said:


> OW pinning it the sweetest revenge you can have. Focus on you nad your marriage if it's what you want. Let OW dye is selfpity and laugh at it. Hopely she'd become alcoholic over it.


Good point. She's probably driving herself insane with jealousy because she's still stalking my work related website 9 months later. This whole mess is insane. Who tries to keep someone in a relationship by threatening them? How did she think that was going to turn into a healthy relationship? How was she planning on keeping me out of his life for good if it was obvious he wanted me and not her? Every time he saw me (because we have children together) was she going to accompany him? 

It's the whole "he owes me" thing and whining about it was all so unfair to her that really gets me though. I can't fathom someone that self-absorbed.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Zanna can you think of instances in your adult life where  you have acted unreasonably angry hurt and entitled? Have you ever failed to hear the pleas of someone who needed you to change but ignored them. 

Have you changed some things about your self because you realized you were wrong? People do change. Your husband seems to have done his homework. many WS dont work hard at R and don't ask for forgiveness and nor do they atone. He seems to be doing that. This marriage may be too good to throw away. 

The changes in your husband have lasted for 8 months. That is a long time. Perhaps it is time to let him off the hook and decide if you can re-establish trust and love.

The marriage you have from now on will be different. You won't know how until you put both feet in. I think you need to deel legally with the OW. Get law inforcemeat involved and document the contact. Let your husband take the lead in that. Let him know this is a major factor in your continued hesitation. You are taking the heat for something you did not have a role in creating . He should take the lead in researching legal remedies. 

As far as the change in him and his inability to change before. The light went on and he matured. Most of us do. The best of luck to you and your family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Zanna can you think of instances in your adult life where you have acted unreasonably angry hurt and entitled? Have you ever failed to hear the pleas of someone who needed you to change but ignored them.
> 
> Have you changed some things about your self because you realized you were wrong? People do change. Your husband seems to have done his homework. many WS dont work hard at R and don't ask for forgiveness and nor do they atone. He seems to be doing that. This marriage may be too good to throw away.
> 
> ...


Yes, I have felt very angry in my life but I always think before I make decisions. Ironically, I was very unhappy in our M before the A and had contemplated leaving. I did go to my H many times with my concerns about our M. Only to have him ignore me as I cried. Or have him mock me and say that he deleted my emails without reading them so it's not like I didn't try to communicate with him prior to his A. I even purchased books on M and was attempting to own my issues as well as take my time before making such a life-altering decision. H on the other hand, met OW (who made it obvious she was available despite being married as well) and he decided to start an A. He admits he decided our M was over and started the A. Just like that. And he admits, if he had been single he wouldn't have even dated OW because she was not that special or attractive. I've seen her photos and I still can't believe my H was involved with her as she's quite unattractive. And clearly given her behaviour, he personality was not that attractive either. Yet, he threw away our M on a whim over not that special or attractive without any counselling or prior contemplation. The whole thing boggles my mind. And I question his true character. Who wouldn't?

And yes, I do recognize my mistakes in the M and am owning them. I also recognize that my H is trying but unfortunately my feelings of betrayal, jealousy, anger and humiliation are not just going away. I think that's going to take time.

As for OW, my H sent her a Cease and Desist so her harassing emails have stopped but how can I stop her from viewing me online. When she does so, it triggers my anger and resentment. My website keeps track of IP's and I have her IP so I know it's her. 

Ironically, I agree our M is better in many ways aside from the dark shadow of the A hanging over us. We talk more, we touch more, we make love more. We are communicating better and we have grown a lot as a couple.

But it's still there between us...

Thanks for your thoughts, Catherine. I appreciate you taking the time to post to me.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Zanna I am trying to fix his character and I am having a hard time. Before the affair, he sounded like a narcissist or BPD. They don't care about anyone but themselves. 

They are the picture of charm when they want something. But they can turn nasty when they get it. They also need to be the center of attention. 

When they are rejected they go to extraordinary lengths to get the person back. It is not about the other person it is about them. They hate being rejected. 

Does you husband have an explanation as to why he acted the way he did? Does it seem plausible to you? How is he with friends and relative? Is he self centered and dismissive about their feelings? 

What does your gut tell you about him? If you ignore what he says, and look at his actions, before and after the affair, does his change make sense. 

You have seen people do a 180 in their lives I am sure. You know when it is hollow and when it is real. What dose your gut tell you about your husbands change? 

What was he like before marriage and when did he change?

I think that is my only concern. If it is and act, it can be very convincing if he has a personality disorder. 

One way to handle this is to have zero tolerance for any retune to his former behavior. If he is a fake, you will see the bad behavior slowly retune when he thinks he has you hooked. 

Have a boundary in place. If the behavior shows even mildly, get out, no matter what he does . Personality disorders don't change. 

I hope he is genuine. But I think having that boundary in place may make you more confident to commit. Don't take leaving off the table.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Does you husband have an explanation as to why he acted the way he did? Does it seem plausible to you? How is he with friends and relative? Is he self centered and dismissive about their feelings?


His explanation was that he was angry. VERY angry. Angry at the world because his mom died and his wife was so unhappy. He thought he had met my needs and that I was purposely withholding sex from him out of anger so when the opportunity for sex presented itself, he took it. He said part of it was ALSO revenge based. Yes, incredibly frightening. 

As for friends and relatives, no he was not self-centered or dismissive of their feelings. He was the opposite. Friends and family could do no wrong. Me on the other hand, I was held to a higher standard. He made excuses for the bad behaviour of friends and family but admits he unfairly blamed me for our marriage problems. In the past, he's said his father and sister were selfish people but I didn't realize how truly selfish he was too. Although, at times I did wonder how he managed not to get the "selfish" gene. Silly me. I'm sure you won't be surprised to know that his father cheated on his mother but apparently she never found out. I was the one who discovered the cheating because I found a letter 17 years ago after his mom left his father. It's like my life is a bad TV movie sometimes.

Before she died, I talked to my H's mom many times about why she left her M and she said it was because her H was angry and insensitive to her feelings. He also left her alone a lot to pursue his own activities (another red flag). I don't believe she ever found out about the cheating. She was always very open with me so I think she would have mentioned it but you never know...

I also recall that my H's father tried to get his mom to have an affair with him while he was married to his second wife (who happened to be his OW from years ago). They hooked up 10 years later again. TV movie stuff again. My MIL said she had no respect for OW and would never be one herself and told her ex to fix his M or get out. She was the one person in my H's family that wasn't selfish and I respected her.

I have considered NPD as he fits some of the criteria but so do many people and they're not NPD. I do think he's Passive Aggressive though. He fits nearly all the criteria for PA.



Catherine602 said:


> does your gut tell you about him? If you ignore what he says, and look at his actions, before and after the affair, does his change make sense.


Well, I'm not sure because I don't know what's real anymore due to the situation. I'm still sorting out my feelings and past events. There was a definite change in his behaviour during the A so that's why I'm leaning towards believing this was his first rodeo. He did try to end our M about 10 years ago and blamed me for all the issues as usual but it was different. There was sadness not anger and he wasn't mean. Just pathetic and immature. He seemed depressed and confused but wouldn't seek counselling. He threatened to leave many times, so one day I packed up his stuff and told him if he was going to threaten me, he needed to go. He had been vacillating for 9 months and I'd had enough. I told him he couldn't come back until he got IC and committed to MC which he agreed to right away but I still wouldn't let him come back for 6 more months. He maintains to this day there was no A. Just his lack of ability to cope with marriage problems. He's one of those people that thinks if you find the right person, your relationship will be perfect and if it's not, it's because you're with the wrong person. Narcissistic? Not sure but definitely emotionally immature.

And clearly counselling didn't do him that much good the first time.



Catherine602 said:


> have seen people do a 180 in their lives I am sure. You know when it is hollow and when it is real. What dose your gut tell you about your husbands change?


I *think* it might be real because he didn't play the blame game on D-day. He explained his justifications for the A but always prefaced the conversation by saying it was wrong, immature, selfish and entitled. At the time, he said his justifications made sense but now the reasons and justifications are embarrassing and shameful. He said his needs not being met was merely an excuse but NOT a good or kind decision and he should have chosen to speak to me about his feelings, MC or divorce. Cheating should have never been on the table. He said he came to this conclusion by reading online and as well as books on marriage. Also, IC prior to D-day. 



Catherine602 said:


> What was he like before marriage and when did he change?


He was always flaky and PA. He broke up with me a lot. We were teenagers though and (he was my first sexual partner) I didn't recognize the signs of a poor risk partner. I always believed he'd grow up. Although, I did go through a phase that smartened him up. I dumped him and started seeing other men. Suddenly, he was cured of the constant breakups...

On paper he looked good (before the A) -- good father aside from the time during the A during which he was horrible and angry. Smart, successful and loved by my friends and family. If only they knew now though...




Catherine602 said:


> think that is my only concern. If it is and act, it can be very convincing if he has a personality disorder.
> 
> One way to handle this is to have zero tolerance for any retune to his former behavior. If he is a fake, you will see the bad behavior slowly retune when he thinks he has you hooked.
> 
> Have a boundary in place. If the behavior shows even mildly, get out, no matter what he does . Personality disorders don't change.


I've told him he's used up all his chances with me. He sent a NC email after D-day because screaming at OW on the phone to stop calling our home and responding to her pathetic whiny texts about her pain with "I don't care" didn't seem to work. She kept trying to contact him. So he sent a very harsh NC letter. She texted him 3 days later begging him to call her and he didn't tell me. He claims he didn't want to stir the pot. I had access to his phone so I found out about the contact. He claims he told her again via text it was over and to stop contacting him. I checked his cell phone bill and there were no calls to her number. All the numbers checked out but R was almost done at that point because he didn't tell me about the contact. It was a rough month. I said I wanted a D. OW continued to stalk me and send me harassing emails. It sort of dawned on me that if all was well in affairland then she wouldn't be coming after me like a crazy person. That's when I realized he was most likely telling me the truth about NC. He also kept saying that I was so much better than her in every way so why would he go back to that psycho if he could have me. And why would he be with an unstable woman that had to threaten him to get him to be with her. Of course, I didn't tell him this but it did make some sense at least.

BUT now I have set a firm boundary. Any contact and we are done. If she texts him or contacts him in any form even if he tells her off and he doesn't tell me, we are done. 

He said he understands why I don't trust him but he claims he has learned his lesson and will never ever use an A to solve his M problems again. It did not make him happy and it hurt me and the kids terribly. He said in the end, the A made him more unhappy because all he ever wanted was me but he was so angry and he thought OW could fill that void but all she did was make him want me more. He said that's why he was drinking so much towards the end of the A because he said he ruined his life and he knew when I found out, I would kick him out. And of course she was threatening him.

He's apparently a drama queen too which I've said to him in anger because this whole thing is ridiculous.



Catherine602 said:


> I hope he is genuine. But I think having that boundary in place may make you more confident to commit. Don't take leaving off the table.


Oh, I have definitely not taken leaving off the table. I'm having a very hard time fully committing to R though and I think that's probably going to affect R so I have to explore those feelings more.


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