# Dealing with Low Testosterone - Hypogonadism



## Deejo

I have been hesistant to post this thread for some time. While dealing with the dying days of my marriage and then struggling with whether or not my symptoms and issues were a result of stress and coping with the divorce I wasn't sure if my problems were physiological or psychological. But ... testing has confirmed what I would never have suspected were it not once again, for discoveries I made here on this forum. So in that vein, I hope sharing my information will be useful to others.

The website below is a great one-stop resource for learning about all things testosterone. What it is, what it does, what the measurements mean, and methods of addressing and treating the issue of deficiency. Without getting into existential discussion, testosterone is the hormone produced in the testes that basically, defines male sexual characteristics, bone mass, muscle mass, and influences energy levels and feelings of well being.

Mens Hormonal Health

These are other threads on TAM addressing this question - that from a guy's perspective isn't going to be an enthusiastic conversation - but probably is a necessary one, especially if it is having a negative impact on your relationship.

Any man out there having a mid-life crisis?

Could it be low testosterone?

Low testosterone, how to deal

In my case, what I have found most troubling about the diagnosis, is wondering how long it has been an issue. I have shared previously that I was diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder in my thirties. I struggled tremendously through college and at times in the work environment with attention and fatigue issues. I took medication for over a decade to treat my inability to focus that led to prostate problems, and utterly crashed my libido, ability to achieve or maintain an erection, or to have an orgasm. Basically the side effects of the medication I was taking increased the symptoms of hypogonadism or low test. To me, the kicker, and hope is the possibility that my ADD symptoms will be resolved by testosterone therapy.

For the benefit of others, in considering low test as a possible issue, my symptoms are as follows:

- Erectile Dysfunction
- Decreased Libido, I still have desire but not that driving urge. And even with desire, my body won't cooperate.
- Decreased penile sensitivity 
- Difficulty achieving orgasm, This has almost always been an issue for me. I have the opposite of premature ejaculation.
- Depression, I want to qualify this as feeling more like an emotional trough. I don't feel that it comes anywhere close to clinical depression, although depression still feels like the best word. I feel like there is a damper on my emotions, and at times my energy level is zero.
- Insomnia, I've had bouts of this throughout my adult life. I usually chalked it up to stress - even when there were no apparent stressors in place.
- Fatigue, I'm not talking about feeling a little tired or having a hard time staying alert through the afternoon, I'm talking about a really weird inability to take action in the morning. It's like this low waking state, where I'm aware, but my mind doesn't engage to say - 'time to get up'. I will literally think that I have been awake in bed for 10 minutes or so, and discover when I actually do get up that I had been laying there for close to an hour.
In the evening, between 5 and 8 pm I am exhausted as in want to go to sleep for the night tired, have nearly fallen asleep behind the wheel tired. Occasionally I do doze off and awake a few hours later.

The reason I feel that laying this stuff out there is important, is that so much of it can easily be categorized as other conditions - thus missing the correct one. My physician and urologist never posited the possibility of low testosterone. I asked them to do a screening based upon my symptoms after reading about the subject here, particularly based on contributions and exchanges with Simply Amorous.The screening is a simple blood test.

Testosterone generally begins to drop once a man is in his thirties, the presumption is that the drop is about 1% per year. In my case, my symptoms became far more pronounce approaching my mid-forties. What complicated things in my mind, was this also coincided with the timing of the end of my marriage and divorce. So, based upon the results of my blood screening, I am pursuing treatment on the physiological side. If testosterone therapy doesn't yield any results in terms of the sexual or emotional symptoms, I'll be looking at options on the psychological side.

Frankly, the symptoms and consequences of this condition are humiliating. They are demoralizing. If you feel like crap, it makes you feel crappier. If you are generally confident and upbeat, it's tough to maintain that outlook. All of a sudden the inability to perform one of the most definitive of male traits - becomes the center of anxiety, fear and disappointment - especially if you are trying to forge new intimate relationships. I do want to forge new intimate relationships, and I do want to be back to my confident, upbeat self. So, I have no plans to ignore or deny the issue hoping it will go away, I'm opting for treatment, and would encourage any man on the fence, to get screened and pursue treatment as well.

Treatment takes several forms:

- Pills (Generally considered least effective)
- Transdermal Gels, this is a gel rubbed into the skin where the hormone is then absorbed into the blood stream.
- Injections, intramuscular injections via syringe
- Subdermal Implant, this is the option I chose. The medication is pelletized and inserted beneath the skin where a steady dose of the medication is absorbed for up to 4 months.

My therapy will likely start in early January. Benefits if any, should likely start to appear by February, within 4 to 6 weeks.

I will certainly try to post experiences and progress in the interim, and with ongoing treatment. I'll be happy to answer any questions either on the open forum or via PM.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo - thank you for sharing something so personal. I have no doubt that your post will help someone who reads it.

And good luck!


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Deejo - thank you for sharing something so personal. I have no doubt that your post will help someone who reads it.
> 
> And good luck!


Much appreciated NG. Honestly, I don't think I would have a diagnosis without the information I found on TAM, so I do hope others will benefit from, or consider the possibility if they have some of these symptoms going on.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo,
For what it is worth (from a woman), I applaud you for sharing this. You absolutely rock! The ladies here all love you, trust me. NG too!


----------



## greenpearl

Good morning, Deejo,

Again, I like your avatar!

How come you are like us, like to change our avatars!



I don't know if I will ever settle for one!

I like to change things, my husband is so glad that he is the one I want to keep!


----------



## Conrad

Deej,

Warn your girlfriend

I had it at one point also. Believe it or not, it merely required a change of underwear.

Before anyone pounces on the obvious one-liner, it required a change from briefs to boxers.


----------



## Mom6547

Thanks, Deejo. Too much to process right now. But I wanted to say how brave I think it is for you to share.


----------



## Chasing Rainbows

Hi, thank you for sharing such personal information. I am sure that it will be a great help to men reading this forum as well as women who may recognise the symptoms you list.

All of the symptoms you have listed my husband had. At the time I just put it down to the stress, he has a high stress job and works long hours. I did try to talk to him about it but it always came back to stress of work. It could well be that he was just stressed and was checking out of our marriage, it is difficult to say. I suppose he will only find out for himself if he is now seeing someone else or does in the future. Thank you so much for sharing and I hope that your therapy is successful


----------



## takris

Thanks for sharing this. I'm in my forties and noticed that I seemed to take forever to recover from workouts like before. And all my coworkers told me that I'm not as aggressive. And I seemed to worry about unfinished projects like I never did before. Same problems you mentioned with sleep. So, I had it checked. Turns out that it was slightly above average.

What this doctor didn't know was that it was checked when I was young, with hypertension, and found to be much higher. My doc thinks I was just used to the higher level. My point is that a shift even within the normal range can be felt. 

Thing is, I don't think the doctor would've checked it if I hadn't demanded it. She wasn't the one who treated me when when I was younger. So I now take tribulus terrestris, an extract that is known to make the body produce more testosterone, and I heal from workouts like the old days.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I sometimes felt I was rambling, like a broken record at times so often dragging my Husbands Testosterone levels into many of my posts, whether it be to explain his less than aggressive behavior to worrying about his future levels, but here it turned out a "good" thing, catching Deejo's ears, one of our most fine articulate contributors of all Good Men here at this forum. 

LOVE your bravery in sharing your very personal story & I hope to hear more of your journey to health & "energy boosting" wellness. I know from much reading this hormone does a real job on us in our thoughts, our moods, aggressiveness, even confidence, even our sexual fantasies! Look out what awaits you -better have that woman ready!

Some Docs are so clueless, rarely do they consider Hormones. 

Low Test is becoming more & more of an epidemic in this day & age. Much of this is probably due to other drugs interacting. With so many STATINS being handed out like candy - many do not realize these can further lower levels, not a good thing if you are "lower" to begin with (like my husband). I was posting all over the internet about this at one time in my worried state as my husband has high Cholesterol , not to mention Diabetes on his dad's side of the family -even though he is very thin. It causes quite the dilemma for us, knowing these meds can lower his levels even further! He is good for now, but I don't want to push it. So we cut his Cholesterol meds in half. Lab results are still good, within range thankfully. Not sure why Docs give you way more of a higher dosage than is necessary to keep your levels within normal range. 

Statins effect on Test here >>> Sexual Side Effects of Statins 

Even those who take Metforin for Diabetes should be aware, this can further lower Test. Some links here >> Metformin Lowers Testosterone How Much?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

takris said:


> What this doctor didn't know was that it was checked when I was young, with hypertension, and found to be much higher. My doc thinks I was just used to the higher level. My point is that a shift even within the normal range can be felt.


 That is the thing about Test levels, if a man is HIGH and falls hundreds of points in a short time, even if his #s are within normal range (300ish to 1100 depending on the Lab), YOU will feel it & dramatically sometimes. The further the drop, the worse the symptoms. 

Even some of these men need treatment but fail to get it from their Docs because their numbers fall above the 300 point. My husband was never tested when he was younger, so we have no baseline to go by. But I can attest -He was NEVER Aggressive or a Risk taker, all those things associated with High test, he has been & remained stable in mind / attitude / energy even desire, for the most part, even He was more tired than me when younger, so when we learned of his lower levels --ranging from 323 to 503 (being the highest of 9 tests), I pretty much came the conclusion he has always been a "Lower test" guy. The only reason I sent him to the Doc was my sex drive increased. If not for this, neither of us would have noticed a thing! 

I was really stressed out about this whole thing when the Encronologist said his levels were typical of a 60 yr old man!! Thankfully, in one of my Testosterone books , it explained that some men are lower most of their lives, in these cases, a man like my husband will feel BETTER at a 350 level in comparison to a man who was a 700 level that suddenly drops to a 450 level, he may even need treatment -because of the drastic changes in his energy, mood, desire. For these men, *they need to find a Doctor who will consider the symptoms MORE than the Lab result numbers. * I talked to a few men online who had higher Lab #'s than my husbands (many were in the 400's ) & who were getting treatment & says it saved their life ! 

Anyone listening on here, if you suspect this could be a problem, make sure you get LAB results, not just a Nurse telling you "you are fine" -all your numbers came back normal" if you suspect Low Test. This happens way too often. 




takris said:


> So I now take tribulus terrestris, an extract that is known to make the body produce more testosterone, and I heal from workouts like the old days.


 I looked into this but decided against it- I can’t remember why, but there was a reason. I did buy him some TongKat Ali at one time, he took this for a few weeks, then one day his skin became REALLY irritated & he couldn’t stand my touch, that was the end of that experiment.


----------



## MEM2020

What an incredibly brave and honest post. And I imagine a rather helpful one to those of us who will follow in your path as time passes. 


QUOTE=Deejo;215695]I have been hesistant to post this thread for some time. While dealing with the dying days of my marriage and then struggling with whether or not my symptoms and issues were a result of stress and coping with the divorce I wasn't sure if my problems were physiological or psychological. But ... testing has confirmed what I would never have suspected were it not once again, for discoveries I made here on this forum. So in that vein, I hope sharing my information will be useful to others.

The website below is a great one-stop resource for learning about all things testosterone. What it is, what it does, what the measurements mean, and methods of addressing and treating the issue of deficiency. Without getting into existential discussion, testosterone is the hormone produced in the testes that basically, defines male sexual characteristics, bone mass, muscle mass, and influences energy levels and feelings of well being.

Mens Hormonal Health

These are other threads on TAM addressing this question - that from a guy's perspective isn't going to be an enthusiastic conversation - but probably is a necessary one, especially if it is having a negative impact on your relationship.

Any man out there having a mid-life crisis?

Could it be low testosterone?

Low testosterone, how to deal

In my case, what I have found most troubling about the diagnosis, is wondering how long it has been an issue. I have shared previously that I was diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder in my thirties. I struggled tremendously through college and at times in the work environment with attention and fatigue issues. I took medication for over a decade to treat my inability to focus that led to prostate problems, and utterly crashed my libido, ability to achieve or maintain an erection, or to have an orgasm. Basically the side effects of the medication I was taking increased the symptoms of hypogonadism or low test. To me, the kicker, and hope is the possibility that my ADD symptoms will be resolved by testosterone therapy.

For the benefit of others, in considering low test as a possible issue, my symptoms are as follows:

- Erectile Dysfunction
- Decreased Libido, I still have desire but not that driving urge. And even with desire, my body won't cooperate.
- Decreased penile sensitivity 
- Difficulty achieving orgasm, This has almost always been an issue for me. I have the opposite of premature ejaculation.
- Depression, I want to qualify this as feeling more like an emotional trough. I don't feel that it comes anywhere close to clinical depression, although depression still feels like the best word. I feel like there is a damper on my emotions, and at times my energy level is zero.
- Insomnia, I've had bouts of this throughout my adult life. I usually chalked it up to stress - even when there were no apparent stressors in place.
- Fatigue, I'm not talking about feeling a little tired or having a hard time staying alert through the afternoon, I'm talking about a really weird inability to take action in the morning. It's like this low waking state, where I'm aware, but my mind doesn't engage to say - 'time to get up'. I will literally think that I have been awake in bed for 10 minutes or so, and discover when I actually do get up that I had been laying there for close to an hour.
In the evening, between 5 and 8 pm I am exhausted as in want to go to sleep for the night tired, have nearly fallen asleep behind the wheel tired. Occasionally I do doze off and awake a few hours later.

The reason I feel that laying this stuff out there is important, is that so much of it can easily be categorized as other conditions - thus missing the correct one. My physician and urologist never posited the possibility of low testosterone. I asked them to do a screening based upon my symptoms after reading about the subject here, particularly based on contributions and exchanges with Simply Amorous.The screening is a simple blood test.

Testosterone generally begins to drop once a man is in his thirties, the presumption is that the drop is about 1% per year. In my case, my symptoms became far more pronounce approaching my mid-forties. What complicated things in my mind, was this also coincided with the timing of the end of my marriage and divorce. So, based upon the results of my blood screening, I am pursuing treatment on the physiological side. If testosterone therapy doesn't yield any results in terms of the sexual or emotional symptoms, I'll be looking at options on the psychological side.

Frankly, the symptoms and consequences of this condition are humiliating. They are demoralizing. If you feel like crap, it makes you feel crappier. If you are generally confident and upbeat, it's tough to maintain that outlook. All of a sudden the inability to perform one of the most definitive of male traits - becomes the center of anxiety, fear and disappointment - especially if you are trying to forge new intimate relationships. I do want to forge new intimate relationships, and I do want to be back to my confident, upbeat self. So, I have no plans to ignore or deny the issue hoping it will go away, I'm opting for treatment, and would encourage any man on the fence, to get screened and pursue treatment as well.

Treatment takes several forms:

- Pills (Generally considered least effective)
- Transdermal Gels, this is a gel rubbed into the skin where the hormone is then absorbed into the blood stream.
- Injections, intramuscular injections via syringe
- Subdermal Implant, this is the option I chose. The medication is pelletized and inserted beneath the skin where a steady dose of the medication is absorbed for up to 4 months.

My therapy will likely start in early January. Benefits if any, should likely start to appear by February, within 4 to 6 weeks.

I will certainly try to post experiences and progress in the interim, and with ongoing treatment. I'll be happy to answer any questions either on the open forum or via PM.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Trenton

Nothing but admiration for you, Deejo. I'm a fan.


----------



## takris

SimplyAmorous said:


> Low Test is becoming more & more of an epidemic in this day & age. Much of this is probably due to other drugs interacting. With so many STATINS being handed out like candy - many do not realize these can further lower levels, not a good thing if you are "lower" to begin with (like my husband). I was posting all over the internet about this at one time in my worried state as my husband has high Cholesterol , not to mention Diabetes on his dad's side of the family -even though he is very thin. It causes quite the dilemma for us, knowing these meds can lower his levels even further! He is good for now, but I don't want to push it. So we cut his Cholesterol meds in half. Lab results are still good, within range thankfully. Not sure why Docs give you way more of a higher dosage than is necessary to keep your levels within normal range. [/url]


I don't want to take this off thread, but the statin risk is a personal one for me. I've taken them since the early twenties. Doctors noticed extreme hypertension and lipids. Nothing difinitive, but testosterone and adrenaline were very high. My insurance forced me, after 15 years, to change to a generic lipid reduction statin based on a different statin. Not only did I lose all sex drive, but I experienced those muscle symptoms they discuss on every commercial's disclaimers. 

Problem is, most guys are too ashamed to discuss it with their doctor. My new doc is really young, and she turned red as a beet on the third appointment when I finally brought it up. But, I figured she wouldn't be half as embarrassing as my wife's handling of the issue.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Just wanted to add -this is the book I have on my shelves that helped me see/understand that so called "normal" Test levels can mean very different things for different men - some being not so normal at all -- depending on their baseline youthful highs (which generally was never taken to know). 

It explains that there is indeed a "gray zone" for some in the "normal" 300-500 level range. When dealing with these numbers, a GOOD Doctor will take "severity" of symptoms over numbers. 

Page 173 explains this very well, similar to my attempt in my last post. 

Amazon.com: The Testosterone Syndrome: The Critical Factor for Energy, Health, and Sexuality--Reversing the Male Menopause (9780871318589): Eugene Shippen, William Fryer: Books


----------



## Conrad

takris said:


> I don't want to take this off thread, but the statin risk is a personal one for me. I've taken them since the early twenties. Doctors noticed extreme hypertension and lipids. Nothing difinitive, but testosterone and adrenaline were very high. My insurance forced me, after 15 years, to change to a generic lipid reduction statin based on a different statin. Not only did I lose all sex drive, but I experienced those muscle symptoms they discuss on every commercial's disclaimers.
> 
> Problem is, most guys are too ashamed to discuss it with their doctor. My new doc is really young, and she turned red as a beet on the third appointment when I finally brought it up. But, I figured she wouldn't be half as embarrassing as my wife's handling of the issue.


Takris,

I'm a pharmacist.

If you want to PM me with some of this stuff, we can take it off line.

Of course, that's if it's still an issue.


----------



## Mom6547

Deejo, what a nightmare! I can see how it would be humiliating and the physical symptoms debilitating. Some woman is going to be very lucky to have you. I applaud the courage to post this. May your testimony be helpful to other men who are in your position.


----------



## Orion

Deejo said:


> I have been hesistant to post this thread for some time. While dealing with the dying days of my marriage and then struggling with whether or not my symptoms and issues were a result of stress and coping with the divorce I wasn't sure if my problems were physiological or psychological. But ... testing has confirmed what I would never have suspected were it not once again, for discoveries I made here on this forum. So in that vein, I hope sharing my information will be useful to others.
> 
> The website below is a great one-stop resource for learning about all things testosterone. What it is, what it does, what the measurements mean, and methods of addressing and treating the issue of deficiency. Without getting into existential discussion, testosterone is the hormone produced in the testes that basically, defines male sexual characteristics, bone mass, muscle mass, and influences energy levels and feelings of well being.
> 
> Mens Hormonal Health
> 
> These are other threads on TAM addressing this question - that from a guy's perspective isn't going to be an enthusiastic conversation - but probably is a necessary one, especially if it is having a negative impact on your relationship.
> 
> Any man out there having a mid-life crisis?
> 
> Could it be low testosterone?
> 
> Low testosterone, how to deal
> 
> In my case, what I have found most troubling about the diagnosis, is wondering how long it has been an issue. I have shared previously that I was diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder in my thirties. I struggled tremendously through college and at times in the work environment with attention and fatigue issues. I took medication for over a decade to treat my inability to focus that led to prostate problems, and utterly crashed my libido, ability to achieve or maintain an erection, or to have an orgasm. Basically the side effects of the medication I was taking increased the symptoms of hypogonadism or low test. To me, the kicker, and hope is the possibility that my ADD symptoms will be resolved by testosterone therapy.
> 
> For the benefit of others, in considering low test as a possible issue, my symptoms are as follows:
> 
> - Erectile Dysfunction
> - Decreased Libido, I still have desire but not that driving urge. And even with desire, my body won't cooperate.
> - Decreased penile sensitivity
> - Difficulty achieving orgasm, This has almost always been an issue for me. I have the opposite of premature ejaculation.
> - Depression, I want to qualify this as feeling more like an emotional trough. I don't feel that it comes anywhere close to clinical depression, although depression still feels like the best word. I feel like there is a damper on my emotions, and at times my energy level is zero.
> - Insomnia, I've had bouts of this throughout my adult life. I usually chalked it up to stress - even when there were no apparent stressors in place.
> - Fatigue, I'm not talking about feeling a little tired or having a hard time staying alert through the afternoon, I'm talking about a really weird inability to take action in the morning. It's like this low waking state, where I'm aware, but my mind doesn't engage to say - 'time to get up'. I will literally think that I have been awake in bed for 10 minutes or so, and discover when I actually do get up that I had been laying there for close to an hour.
> In the evening, between 5 and 8 pm I am exhausted as in want to go to sleep for the night tired, have nearly fallen asleep behind the wheel tired. Occasionally I do doze off and awake a few hours later.
> 
> The reason I feel that laying this stuff out there is important, is that so much of it can easily be categorized as other conditions - thus missing the correct one. My physician and urologist never posited the possibility of low testosterone. I asked them to do a screening based upon my symptoms after reading about the subject here, particularly based on contributions and exchanges with Simply Amorous.The screening is a simple blood test.
> 
> Testosterone generally begins to drop once a man is in his thirties, the presumption is that the drop is about 1% per year. In my case, my symptoms became far more pronounce approaching my mid-forties. What complicated things in my mind, was this also coincided with the timing of the end of my marriage and divorce. So, based upon the results of my blood screening, I am pursuing treatment on the physiological side. If testosterone therapy doesn't yield any results in terms of the sexual or emotional symptoms, I'll be looking at options on the psychological side.
> 
> Frankly, the symptoms and consequences of this condition are humiliating. They are demoralizing. If you feel like crap, it makes you feel crappier. If you are generally confident and upbeat, it's tough to maintain that outlook. All of a sudden the inability to perform one of the most definitive of male traits - becomes the center of anxiety, fear and disappointment - especially if you are trying to forge new intimate relationships. I do want to forge new intimate relationships, and I do want to be back to my confident, upbeat self. So, I have no plans to ignore or deny the issue hoping it will go away, I'm opting for treatment, and would encourage any man on the fence, to get screened and pursue treatment as well.
> 
> Treatment takes several forms:
> 
> - Pills (Generally considered least effective)
> - Transdermal Gels, this is a gel rubbed into the skin where the hormone is then absorbed into the blood stream.
> - Injections, intramuscular injections via syringe
> - Subdermal Implant, this is the option I chose. The medication is pelletized and inserted beneath the skin where a steady dose of the medication is absorbed for up to 4 months.
> 
> My therapy will likely start in early January. Benefits if any, should likely start to appear by February, within 4 to 6 weeks.
> 
> I will certainly try to post experiences and progress in the interim, and with ongoing treatment. I'll be happy to answer any questions either on the open forum or via PM.


Deejo,

Your post really hit home with me and I thank you for telling your story. I just had a vasectory about 3 months ago. For about a month after the procedure, everything felt normal. Then I started to notice that my erections started to be harder to come by. Also, they are not "self-sustaining". Before the procedure, I could just THINK about my wife and I was "at attention". Now, my thoughts are not enough. And, it's getting more difficult for me to have sexual thoughts where before it was natural. Also, I am no longer affected by visual stimulus either. My wife and I have to be engaged in physical contact for an erection to occur and even then it's hit or miss. This has been pretty debilitating for me. My wife initially thought that I simply lost interest and that's not the case. I now believe that I have low testosterone. I am setting up an appointment to see if this is the case. I had a suspicion and reading the links and your post makes me think that this is the case.

Anyway, thanks again for your post. I really appreciate you sharing what you are going through. And, if this is what I am going through as well, it helps me know I am not alone. Good luck.


----------



## Deejo

takris said:


> I don't want to take this off thread, but the statin risk is a personal one for me. I've taken them since the early twenties. Doctors noticed extreme hypertension and lipids. Nothing difinitive, but testosterone and adrenaline were very high. My insurance forced me, after 15 years, to change to a generic lipid reduction statin based on a different statin. Not only did I lose all sex drive, but I experienced those muscle symptoms they discuss on every commercial's disclaimers.
> 
> Problem is, most guys are too ashamed to discuss it with their doctor. My new doc is really young, and she turned red as a beet on the third appointment when I finally brought it up. But, I figured she wouldn't be half as embarrassing as my wife's handling of the issue.


I don't think it's off-topic at all. The reality is that there are a crapload (technical term) of medications that are prescribed widely and wildly, that have a very negative impact on sexual performance. I had to seriously consider the implications to my life and work before deciding to go off Adderall. The drug is extraordinarily beneficial in enabling me to stay on task and motivated. But the cost of the side effects became too high a price to pay.

I will also echo SA's comment about keeping in mind that what is considered 'normal' should not be the single benchmark you use, nor should you defer to your doctor simply claiming that 'you're in the normal range' if you are in fact symptomatic.

My doc averaged my two tests, and I came out around 400 ng/dl, which is certainly within the normal range of 260 - 1200. But as SA points out, the normal range is measured against men in their 20's all the way up to their 80's. There is no distinction in the numbers based on age. There is apparently also building evidence that testosterone levels in males are dropping overall. Basically men in their 30's and 40's twenty and thirty years ago, had higher base test levels than men do today. Maybe an interesting correlation in the whole 'nice guy' piece - but that is DEFINITELY for another thread.

A ballpark average for a male in his mid thirties through mid forties should be in the upper 600's.

My doctor's response was perfect. He said he didn't care what my number was, I was highly symptomatic and he strongly believes that therapy is the way to go.


----------



## ThinkTooMuch

Deejo,

You are right about this, for me a course of chemotherapy to treat an autoimmune disease caused my nails to thin out and my eyebrows to almost disappear. I suspected my T level was low, tests showed it had gone to 0.

For me the gel did not work well enough, my T level went up, but not high enough. I've been self injecting T every other Saturday for several years now and it has made a big difference in my quality of life, of course increased libido when combined with my stbxw's non-existent libido is leading to divorce, but the overall improvement in my spirits and existence is worth it.

FYI self injecting is easy, but I gave myself over a thousand daily injections of a painful medicine (not insulin) well before I injected T. I self inject because I didn't want to try to see the only endocrinologist in town who had a very full schedule. I'm starting to think the pellets would be a good idea, now that I'm in SF and retired it might be easier to see someone on a regular basis.

Later this week I'll post a detailed description of the injection procedure, much of it learned from an infusion nurse who helped me with my first shots. The only reason it is more complex than most meds (insulin, vaccines) is because T is very viscous and needs to be warmed to body temperature before filling the syringe and injecting. Needles, syringes and T from Walgreen's w/o insurance cost me $20 or less a month.



Deejo said:


> I have been hesistant to post this thread for some time. While dealing with the dying days of my marriage and then struggling with whether or not my symptoms and issues were a result of stress and coping with the divorce I wasn't sure if my problems were physiological or psychological. But ... testing has confirmed what I would never have suspected were it not once again, for discoveries I made here on this forum. So in that vein, I hope sharing my information will be useful to others.
> 
> The website below is a great one-stop resource for learning about all things testosterone. What it is, what it does, what the measurements mean, and methods of addressing and treating the issue of deficiency. Without getting into existential discussion, testosterone is the hormone produced in the testes that basically, defines male sexual characteristics, bone mass, muscle mass, and influences energy levels and feelings of well being.
> 
> Mens Hormonal Health
> 
> These are other threads on TAM addressing this question - that from a guy's perspective isn't going to be an enthusiastic conversation - but probably is a necessary one, especially if it is having a negative impact on your relationship.
> 
> Any man out there having a mid-life crisis?
> 
> Could it be low testosterone?
> 
> Low testosterone, how to deal
> 
> In my case, what I have found most troubling about the diagnosis, is wondering how long it has been an issue. I have shared previously that I was diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder in my thirties. I struggled tremendously through college and at times in the work environment with attention and fatigue issues. I took medication for over a decade to treat my inability to focus that led to prostate problems, and utterly crashed my libido, ability to achieve or maintain an erection, or to have an orgasm. Basically the side effects of the medication I was taking increased the symptoms of hypogonadism or low test. To me, the kicker, and hope is the possibility that my ADD symptoms will be resolved by testosterone therapy.
> 
> For the benefit of others, in considering low test as a possible issue, my symptoms are as follows:
> 
> - Erectile Dysfunction
> - Decreased Libido, I still have desire but not that driving urge. And even with desire, my body won't cooperate.
> - Decreased penile sensitivity
> - Difficulty achieving orgasm, This has almost always been an issue for me. I have the opposite of premature ejaculation.
> - Depression, I want to qualify this as feeling more like an emotional trough. I don't feel that it comes anywhere close to clinical depression, although depression still feels like the best word. I feel like there is a damper on my emotions, and at times my energy level is zero.
> - Insomnia, I've had bouts of this throughout my adult life. I usually chalked it up to stress - even when there were no apparent stressors in place.
> - Fatigue, I'm not talking about feeling a little tired or having a hard time staying alert through the afternoon, I'm talking about a really weird inability to take action in the morning. It's like this low waking state, where I'm aware, but my mind doesn't engage to say - 'time to get up'. I will literally think that I have been awake in bed for 10 minutes or so, and discover when I actually do get up that I had been laying there for close to an hour.
> In the evening, between 5 and 8 pm I am exhausted as in want to go to sleep for the night tired, have nearly fallen asleep behind the wheel tired. Occasionally I do doze off and awake a few hours later.
> 
> The reason I feel that laying this stuff out there is important, is that so much of it can easily be categorized as other conditions - thus missing the correct one. My physician and urologist never posited the possibility of low testosterone. I asked them to do a screening based upon my symptoms after reading about the subject here, particularly based on contributions and exchanges with Simply Amorous.The screening is a simple blood test.
> 
> Testosterone generally begins to drop once a man is in his thirties, the presumption is that the drop is about 1% per year. In my case, my symptoms became far more pronounce approaching my mid-forties. What complicated things in my mind, was this also coincided with the timing of the end of my marriage and divorce. So, based upon the results of my blood screening, I am pursuing treatment on the physiological side. If testosterone therapy doesn't yield any results in terms of the sexual or emotional symptoms, I'll be looking at options on the psychological side.
> 
> Frankly, the symptoms and consequences of this condition are humiliating. They are demoralizing. If you feel like crap, it makes you feel crappier. If you are generally confident and upbeat, it's tough to maintain that outlook. All of a sudden the inability to perform one of the most definitive of male traits - becomes the center of anxiety, fear and disappointment - especially if you are trying to forge new intimate relationships. I do want to forge new intimate relationships, and I do want to be back to my confident, upbeat self. So, I have no plans to ignore or deny the issue hoping it will go away, I'm opting for treatment, and would encourage any man on the fence, to get screened and pursue treatment as well.
> 
> Treatment takes several forms:
> 
> - Pills (Generally considered least effective)
> - Transdermal Gels, this is a gel rubbed into the skin where the hormone is then absorbed into the blood stream.
> - Injections, intramuscular injections via syringe
> - Subdermal Implant, this is the option I chose. The medication is pelletized and inserted beneath the skin where a steady dose of the medication is absorbed for up to 4 months.
> 
> My therapy will likely start in early January. Benefits if any, should likely start to appear by February, within 4 to 6 weeks.
> 
> I will certainly try to post experiences and progress in the interim, and with ongoing treatment. I'll be happy to answer any questions either on the open forum or via PM.


----------



## Frost

Deejo,

The only suggestion I would offer, based on my personal experience with low testosterone and the medication, is to start out with the gel. There is no sure way to tell how you will react and receive the medicine and in my case my doctor had to up my dosage twice before finally getting the correct amount dialed in. This process should be quicker than starting off with the implant which would likely take months before an adjustment could be made.

The implant or injections are likely the best long term options, but I suggest you don't commit until your dosage is correct!

Welcome to the road back to a sense of normalcy!


----------



## Deejo

ThinkTooMuch, I appreciate the input. I was left with the impression that injections caused distinct peaks and valleys, did you find this to be the case?

Frost, I tried Testim for about 2 weeks, based on that experience primarily in terms of contact with my 2 young children, I wasn't comfortable using gel over the long term.

Apparently the pellets come in a series of 10, we will initially be implanting 8. Doc is shooting for a level of between 600 and 800, and would rather start low then end up high and have to come down.


----------



## ThinkTooMuch

Deejo,

I'm not particularly aware of steep peaks and deep valleys, though my GP has recommended I use a gel during the second week following the injection. 

Upon thinking about the pellets I think I'll find a new GP now that I've moved and try them.




Deejo said:


> ThinkTooMuch, I appreciate the input. I was left with the impression that injections caused distinct peaks and valleys, did you find this to be the case?
> 
> Frost, I tried Testim for about 2 weeks, based on that experience primarily in terms of contact with my 2 young children, I wasn't comfortable using gel over the long term.
> 
> Apparently the pellets come in a series of 10, we will initially be implanting 8. Doc is shooting for a level of between 600 and 800, and would rather start low then end up high and have to come down.


----------



## Conrad

ThinkTooMuch said:


> Deejo,
> 
> I'm not particularly aware of steep peaks and deep valleys, though my GP has recommended I use a gel during the second week following the injection.
> 
> Upon thinking about the pellets I think I'll find a new GP now that I've moved and try them.


TTM,

The idea of using the gel means you're trying to mitigate a "valley"


----------



## inkpen22

I too am so happy about this post. My husband has been going through something for a few years now, which is as long as we have been married.  I am CERTAIN it is lowT as we have received his results back and they are below normal by a longshot. He is in his 40's and has ZERO drive for sex, which is not "normal" as some might say. They have also tried to blame it on shift work but I know others that do the same job and have a normal sex life or drive. 
They have discussed HRT for him but have said they are worried it will cause infertility? I thought testosterone replacement is what you used to help fertility? 
I am very confused and would love to hear some good news. He was on the injections before but we did not see a big difference. We have discussed this and really in the last year have not been intimate. We have gone through it all, therapy, endocrinology, anxiety, an ultrasound of his testicles, an MRI to see the pituitary gland. It's like they know what it is but want him to avoid fixing it? Any help or advice would be much appreciated Deejo as it seems you are going through all of this before we are.


----------



## ThinkTooMuch

Inkpen -

My sympathies to you and your husband, I know that my life lost a lot of zest, my interest in sex went down when chemotherapy caused hypogonadism. These days I'm pretty vigorous and interested and 20 years older than your H.

As I wrote earlier I'm giving myself a shot every two weeks. It took a while for my interest and energy levels to go up, by "while" I mean many weeks, I can't recall exactly how many.

My understanding is testosterone replacement if done correctly will increase fertility along with interest. I looked at a few sites, googling hypogonadism and fertility, they confirmed my belief, of course I have long since learned to take all web posts with a large grain of salt, including this one - I'm not a doctor or other medical professional.

Please not routine overdose of muscle building steroids including T over a long period of time can and will effect fertility, gonads literally shrink, I think these are at levels higher than used for normally used for HRT. Your H will need monthly blood work to monitor not just T levels, but other associated factors. Quest labs takes 5 tubes of blood when I go in for routine tests of liver function and T levels.

From what I've read since Deejo posted, I think under skin implants would be your H's best route, if you are considering getting pregnant or able to conceive, please make sure he doesn't use a gel - its impact on a fetus can be enormous, it can also impact your health in a negative way.

You may want to see another dr, there is a possibility the current practice may worry about some of the side effects of increasing T levels and the office's liability.





inkpen22 said:


> I too am so happy about this post. My husband has been going through something for a few years now, which is as long as we have been married.  I am CERTAIN it is lowT as we have received his results back and they are below normal by a longshot. He is in his 40's and has ZERO drive for sex, which is not "normal" as some might say. They have also tried to blame it on shift work but I know others that do the same job and have a normal sex life or drive.
> They have discussed HRT for him but have said they are worried it will cause infertility? I thought testosterone replacement is what you used to help fertility?
> I am very confused and would love to hear some good news. He was on the injections before but we did not see a big difference. We have discussed this and really in the last year have not been intimate. We have gone through it all, therapy, endocrinology, anxiety, an ultrasound of his testicles, an MRI to see the pituitary gland. It's like they know what it is but want him to avoid fixing it? Any help or advice would be much appreciated Deejo as it seems you are going through all of this before we are.


----------



## nice777guy

You guys keep mentioning a range of figures for Testosterone levels. Is there really only ONE number that shows up on a Testosterone screening?

Had my blood drawn Tuesday, but have heard nothing back. Tempted to call and ask about my "number" - but kind of want to know what I'm asking for before I do.

And I now have a sleep study scheduled for next Tuesday.

Of course my problem could also be stress, medication side effects, poor eating habits, perhaps I've overdone the exercising instead of easing into it (but i don't _think_ so), need to lose a few pounds, getting "old" (38?), poor sleeping environment (wife who is up late with bedroom tv on and a dog that likes to sleep on my feet), etc., etc.,

I bet when a Monk gets sick, its pretty easy to diagnose.


----------



## Conrad

Anything between 250 and 1000 is considered "normal".

Obviously, close to 250 is "low normal" and 1000 or over is "neanderthal"


----------



## nice777guy

So, I can just call and ask for my Testosterone number? That simple?

Its not like Cholesterol, with "good" and "bad" numbers?


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> Anything between 250 and 1000 is considered "normal".
> 
> Obviously, close to 250 is "low normal" and 1000 or over is "neanderthal"


And if I understand the other posters, 300 might be 'acceptable', but without a baseline history of my own levels, it could still be too low for "me" if I was around 600 1-2 years ago.


----------



## ThinkTooMuch

I am more interested in sex when my levels are on the high side DUH ;-) This is the result of bi weekly shots of Testosterone. Along with higher levels come higher energy levels and much more enjoyment of women.

I think my stbx wouldn't be a stbx if they were still close to 0 as a result of chemotherapy.



nice777guy said:


> And if I understand the other posters, 300 might be 'acceptable', but without a baseline history of my own levels, it could still be too low for "me" if I was around 600 1-2 years ago.


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> And if I understand the other posters, 300 might be 'acceptable', but without a baseline history of my own levels, it could still be too low for "me" if I was around 600 1-2 years ago.


Yes, you should be able to call and just ask for the results of your test screen. If they simply say "you're normal." Ask for the exact level. It is a number represented in nanograms over deciliters.

I was pleased when my doc said "I don't care what your number is, you're symptomatic." Between two tests, my median was 400.

There is really nothing hard and fast about what the 'right' level is, but from everything I've read, between 600 and 800 seems to be the sweet spot for a healthy drive and few issues with mood or fatigue.

I start therapy on the 28th.


----------



## nice777guy

Thanks Deejo - and good luck.

I just wish the girl who sits next to me here at work wasn't so nosy and didn't have such good hearing.


----------



## geo

I had to push the doc to do mine last year, I accepted the "it's normal" result. I must say the symptoms are way too familliar to me, you may have figured out my puzzle. Monday when I see the doc. I am going to get that specific number and push this issue a bit.. Like was said in an earlyer post, may have made a difference in my marriage, well too late for that I suppose, but not late to rock another gal's world .. hahaha


----------



## MsLonely

geo said:


> I had to push the doc to do mine last year, I accepted the "it's normal" result. I must say the symptoms are way too familliar to me, you may have figured out my puzzle. Monday when I see the doc. I am going to get that specific number and push this issue a bit.. Like was said in an earlyer post, may have made a difference in my marriage, well too late for that I suppose, but not late to rock another gal's world .. hahaha


In that case, viagra already can rock!
My husband's level is around 350, which is within the normal range and doctor refused to give him injection but some viagras. He's got 100mg per pill, and he cut each pill into 3-4 pieces because he doesn't need that strong.
It works pretty and saves money, you only spend few dollars per round.


----------



## Deejo

geo said:


> I had to push the doc to do mine last year, I accepted the "it's normal" result. I must say the symptoms are way too familliar to me, you may have figured out my puzzle. Monday when I see the doc. I am going to get that specific number and push this issue a bit.. Like was said in an earlyer post, may have made a difference in my marriage, well too late for that I suppose, but not late to rock another gal's world .. hahaha


If your doc is unresponsive - fire them. Or make an appointment with a urologist. If you are fighting constant fatigue and mood issues along with the sexual problems, it is certainly worth further investigation.


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> If your doc is unresponsive - fire them. Or make an appointment with a urologist. If you are fighting constant fatigue and mood issues along with the sexual problems, it is certainly worth further investigation.


I'm a pharmacist and I hear people complain about their doctors all the time.

While managed care does have panels of approved providers, it's not like you HAVE to go to that particular doctor.

I've never understood it.


----------



## Deejo

*Men’s testosterone levels dropping, study says*

Nov. 4, 2006
Special to World Science 

The past two decades have seen a “substantial” and unexplained decrease in American men’s testosterone levels, a study has found.

Testosterone is a potent “male” hormone produced chiefly by the testes, and chiefly responsible for the development of male sexual characteristics. The substance also strengthens muscle tone and bone mass, and promotes good health in men. 

The downward trend seems to be “due to some undocumented historical or contemporary influence, health related or environmental,” wrote researchers with the New England Research Institutes in Watertown, Mass., in the study.

The findings appear in the early online edition of the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism.

Average levels of the hormone dropped by 1 percent a year, the researchers reported. While a man’s testosterone level typically falls steadily with age, the investigators found what they argued was a faster decline than could be attributed to aging alone.

They suggested that rising obesity rates and decline in smoking might partially explain the findings, since both factors are associated with lower testosterone levels. But these trends accounted for only a small percentage of the drop, they added.

The researchers said the study population was relatively limited, consisting of 1,532 men from the greater Boston area, and thus the results need to be confirmed by follow-up research.


Have seen an uptick of posts regarding lack of male sexual desire, and questions about T levels, so I thought this was worth posting.

Link to the full text of the report:
A Population-Level Decline in Serum Testosterone Levels in American Men


----------



## greenpearl

I am not surprised. 

People's life is much more stressed than before. 

High stress brain consuming jobs, 

Family stress, 

Pressure people bringing on themselves by wanting a high class life style, 

Plus the obesity a lot of people are facing, 

I guess they are all causes!


----------



## Deejo

Star said:


> Deejo, I hope I'm not hi-jacking your thread but I've been reading up on low T and I came across this site that some people may find interesting to look at, it has a specific forum on there so you can chat to other people who have the condition and blogs from people under going treatement ect, and there is also a self test questionaire too.
> 
> The Andropause Society Home


Very cool. Thanks for sharing, Star.


----------



## Deejo

HRT Journal, Day 12:

Looks for mat of manly chest hair ... nuthin.

Looks at hoo-hoo-dilly and thinks impure thoughts ... nuthin.

But I have a neat scar on my ass as a conversation starter.


----------



## Minncouple

I have been on HRT for years (almost 12). It really isnt as difficult as the doctors think and MOST are completely ignorant to how it works. I recommend seeing an anti aging clinic. Normal doctors are not receptive to modern sciences. I am an ex bodybuilder, that through years of abuse, have ruined my natural system, I had to go on HRT to normalize my life.

1) Get blood work - You will need a full panel. They will test many items, but the big ones are: Test (free and natural), Estrogene, prostate, RBC's, Cholestrals, IGF-1, and lipids. Ranges are different with each lab, but they give ranges (say 200-100), and so on.

Test levels (natural) when lower than say 300 (on a scale of 200-1000), will cause fat gain, laziness, tired, lack of sex drive, no strenght, ext... I try and keep mine at 1000 or so. Most guys, if they have a 300 level, by one shot a week or Test cypionate (200mg/s) thier levels will be 800 or so. Each person differs, but this is a rough guage. Gels, implants do not work as good and are cumbersome.

Be sure to check prostate, it may enlarge in older men. Also estrogen levels, at 200mg of test a week, it should not evelvate but over that it will. If so, Arimidex would be added every other day. A simple pill. This blocks the coversion of test to estrogen

In some individuals RBC's may elevate. RBC's, are the red blood cell counts. if over say 50 or so, the blood gets thicker, thus may add to the risk of cardiac issues. Blood donation will be prescribed every 56 days or so to keep them down.

2) It will take about 4 weeks to get the right mix/mg's to level things out. A man has 2 balls in the air juggling with his blood work, a women will have like 6 balls. MUCH harder to dial in a females bloodwork.

I have had my levels anywhere from 125 (out of 200-1000), and as high as 2800 (out of 200-1000). Anywhere from 500-750 is best, over say 1300 you loose the benifit and the blood cant utilize the test. Thus it simply creates triple the side effects and less benefit.

testicles may shrink, but it is due to the body shutting down natural production all together as the shots are now introduced. If a major problem, such and they are raising, HCG can be added. It is a simple shot (like diabetics take) in the ove handle twice weekly. 

I have seen some amazing changes in older men on HRT. A decent HRT program can be had for under 75 bucks a month. Health insurances will cover only gel's and implants, maybe shots. Most docs push the gels and thats what the reps push. It does work, but not as good and it's a hassle.

I am a 270 lbs man (at 8% body fat) and use 2 shots weekly (3 days apart) of 200mg's of cypionate. In between the shots I take 500iu's of HCG to keep the boys working and full), and 1/2 tab of arimidex every day. As mentioned my levels keep pretty consistant at 1000-1100. 

Test cypionate/enathate both have a half life of about 14 days. if you take a shot a week you will be OK with slight peaks/valleys. Every 14 days and you will notice it fading. I shoot every 3 days and it remains very consistant.

I hope this helps


----------



## Deejo

Excellent input Minncouple. I was having all the symptoms you describe, along with joint discomfort. My levels were hovering between low to mid 300's and 400.

Based on input from you and others, I may consider moving over to injections.

My concern with the gels is that I have small children. I'm in close physical contact with them often. Just makes me nervous.

I must say, that honestly, if HRT has no impact on the ED issue ... I may discontinue it altogether.


----------



## Minncouple

I cant comment on the ED issues, I would think a higher test level would help, but not if it is some non test level related issue causing the ED.

The gels do work, I have used them. They are cumbersome, and a 5g packet used daily raised my levels from 200 to about 600. Alot fo work, for a little raise in levels. It is also not cheap, but I do believe it is the more commonly used insurance companies. It aint cheap if your paying cash for it.

Like I said, and HRT anti aging clinic can get you on a progam for under 100 a month maybe cheaper and you'll be good to go.


----------



## Atholk

Orion said:


> Deejo,
> 
> Your post really hit home with me and I thank you for telling your story. I just had a vasectory about 3 months ago. For about a month after the procedure, everything felt normal. Then I started to notice that my erections started to be harder to come by. Also, they are not "self-sustaining". Before the procedure, I could just THINK about my wife and I was "at attention". Now, my thoughts are not enough. And, it's getting more difficult for me to have sexual thoughts where before it was natural. Also, I am no longer affected by visual stimulus either. My wife and I have to be engaged in physical contact for an erection to occur and even then it's hit or miss. This has been pretty debilitating for me. My wife initially thought that I simply lost interest and that's not the case. I now believe that I have low testosterone. I am setting up an appointment to see if this is the case. I had a suspicion and reading the links and your post makes me think that this is the case.


I would see about getting the vasectomy reversed as soon as possible. For some men vasectomy basically seems to neuter them.


----------



## Deejo

I do have a vasectomy, but all of my symptoms were pre-snip. Nothing really changed after the doc soldered my vas deferens shut.


----------



## Deejo

Day 20:

There has without a doubt been a positive impact on my energy level. No more overwhelming exhaustion between 4 - 8 pm. 

It does also appear that some of the sensitivity loss that I had grown accustom to, has resolved.

No change on the ED front, however. Yeah ... that's frustrating.


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> Day 20:
> 
> There has without a doubt been a positive impact on my energy level. No more overwhelming exhaustion between 4 - 8 pm.
> 
> It does also appear that some of the sensitivity loss that I had grown accustom to, has resolved.
> 
> No change on the ED front, however. Yeah ... that's frustrating.


There are other ways to deal with that.


----------



## nice777guy

Wife gave me TMI recently (as told to her by her mother) - my Father in Law uses some kind of needle / injection to get ready.

I like sex - but if i had to inject something into my penis with a needle first - it had better be GOOD!

Thanks again for sharing Deejo. I'm sure you'll figure something out - sometimes it just takes some time and some experimenting.


----------



## Deejo

You're FIL is juicing his junk?? Awesome.

I have heard of this. Let's face it ... now that's a commitment to wanting sex.

I believe there are also the equivalent of air bladders to accomplish hoisting the mainsail.

Where I am currently at, I think that I can say that if I do not see or feel very distinct results on the sexual side of things, I don't believe I will continue the therapy long term.

Although if I can get back the physique I had at 32, I probably will


----------



## Deejo

Star said:


> Deejo, can I ask if you have had any bad side affects your treatment?


Still early Star, I'm only 20 days in.

But from what I understand there are plenty of possible side effects. Simply a matter of determining which is less unpleasant, the effects of low test, or the side effects of test therapy.


----------



## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> Wife gave me TMI recently (as told to her by her mother) - my Father in Law uses some kind of needle / injection to get ready.
> 
> I like sex - but if i had to inject something into my penis with a needle first - it had better be GOOD!


You mean like Halle Berry?


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> You mean like Halle Berry?


I mean like Halle Berry and Denise Richards - both acting like total freaks!!!

I thought he was using V before - but we're not THAT close, so I'm not planning on asking him why he switched.


----------



## Deejo

The numbers are virtually irrelevant.

Whether or not your husband is suffering from the symptoms is what matters.

By all accounts that I have observed, a ballpark healthy average for a man in his 40's would be in the 600's ng/dl total T.

One author claims that the issue with the 'normal' range is that it actually makes no distinction in terms of age. The data comprising the range was taken from men in their teens to men in their 90's.


----------



## Minncouple

A few comments:

1) 20 days in is still pretty soon to make a judgement. I'd say 60 days will be a leveling off point. Reserve judgemnt till then.

2) Some effects may be placebo (as in simply mind games), but that is fine. It is irrelebant if it is due to actual test levels or simply a confidence from knwoing your taking test.

3) Normal test levels are not a across the board deal. I have seen guys at 200 and look/feel great, and seen guys at 800 and feel/look like crap. It is all a personal deal, thats why it takes a few months to figure out what your body needs. Also each body reacts different to the test, some need a little and some need alot. My system is so stressed from the years of Anabolic abuse that I need a pretty good dose to acheive the desired results.

4) PLEASE keep in mind test/anabolics are not a miracle drug and not a excuse to not change other bad health habits in your life. If your looking to get into great shape, diet is numero uno... PERIOD. Workout programs and second and the drugs are third. I can take a guy, get him on a proper diet, workout program, and a minimal dose of test and he will blow away a guy that doesnt eat right but takes a boat load of drugs. I will also say that low test therapy and getting into great shape are almost unrelated. One is over coming basic blood levels, and the other is taking the body to extreme's. I hope that isnt confusing.

It is most important to find a doc that understands Hormone Therapy, most docs are completely ignorant to this as it's new medicine and not the same old same old. 

Good luck, glad you feel better.


----------



## Minncouple

Oh, as far as side effects...

1) Possible side effects are:
* Increased RBC count (red blood cells)
* Prostate enlargement
* Liver function

All of these are pretty uncommon with dosages under 600 mgs of test a week. Blood work twice a year keeps you on top of this.

2) As far as ranges, I'd bet a guy at 40 years old would be between 200-600, on a scale of 200 to 1000. Very atheletic, inshape, life long athelete's tend to keep thier levels higher longer than the average couch potato.


----------



## Deejo

Minncouple said:


> A few comments:
> 
> 1) 20 days in is still pretty soon to make a judgement. I'd say 60 days will be a leveling off point. Reserve judgemnt till then.
> 
> 2) Some effects may be placebo (as in simply mind games), but that is fine. It is irrelebant if it is due to actual test levels or simply a confidence from knwoing your taking test.
> 
> 3) Normal test levels are not a across the board deal. I have seen guys at 200 and look/feel great, and seen guys at 800 and feel/look like crap. It is all a personal deal, thats why it takes a few months to figure out what your body needs. Also each body reacts different to the test, some need a little and some need alot. My system is so stressed from the years of Anabolic abuse that I need a pretty good dose to acheive the desired results.
> 
> 4) PLEASE keep in mind test/anabolics are not a miracle drug and not a excuse to not change other bad health habits in your life. If your looking to get into great shape, diet is numero uno... PERIOD. Workout programs and second and the drugs are third. I can take a guy, get him on a proper diet, workout program, and a minimal dose of test and he will blow away a guy that doesnt eat right but takes a boat load of drugs. I will also say that low test therapy and getting into great shape are almost unrelated. One is over coming basic blood levels, and the other is taking the body to extreme's. I hope that isnt confusing.
> 
> It is most important to find a doc that understands Hormone Therapy, most docs are completely ignorant to this as it's new medicine and not the same old same old.
> 
> Good luck, glad you feel better.


I made the fitness comments as a life-long hard-gainer.

Recovery has become the primary issue over the past few years. Joint pain, particularly in my hips and elbows had become the bane of my existence. I exercised body parts once a week. Felt like I needed that long for recovery. On the upside, I am not currently experiencing any joint pain at all. However, I am not training nearly as intensely as I would normally.

My average diet is good. When I'm in training mode, I journal. I have never gotten the kind of results from my training that I had hoped for. I have a small bone structure, very narrow wrists and ankles. For where I'm at now, I am satisfied with 'fit looking' as much as I would enjoy having an additional 15 pounds of muscle on my frame.

Really appreciate your input Minncouple.


----------



## Minncouple

Well, not to take this in another direction, but in regards to your comments:

1) It's about training smarter not harder as we age. It's really just as simple as tearing down muscle fibers enough to force regrowth. The regrowth period is what you call recovery.

2) An example, I float around 260-265 at 8% year. I used to train like a mad man, bench 405 for 15 reps, deadlift over 600, squat low 700's, trained very hard. Now it was real fun at the time, but really distroyed my body (joint and painwise). I now train lighter stuff, but still get just as sore. Again, smarter not harder. Why would I want to bench 400, when benching 200 will do. I guess takes age and wisdom to see this. Point is, I was only about 10lbs bigger at my strongest, didnt loose much size, and my body feels alot better. 

3) Most important dietary suppliments:

* Fish oils caps 
* Digestive enzymes
* Multi Vitamine
* Glutamine
* Liv 52 (liver support)

4) Most important Diet items:

* Eat 5 to 6 times a day, equal meals
* High protein, mid/high fat, lower carb.
* 25g's carb prior to training and after
* Water at 1 gallon a day
* NO sugar or Dairy at all, its the devil...
* Consistancy, its not about eating right for a week or month, but for a life time.
* Eat clean 6 days a week, one cheat day.
* Basic foods: Chicken/beef/Egg whites, brown rice/raw oats, any green vege's. THATS it.


Sorry to digress, but fitness and training are my passions in life.


----------



## Deejo

Not a digression to me. I appreciate it.

Fitness, and the kind of input you could provide is probably deserving of it's own thread. Think I'll put one up a little later on.

I am not currently in 'discipline' mode. I definitely need to clean up my dietary house.

Overall, I have always believed that how you treat and perceive your body will translate into the dynamic of our relationships. So, in that regard I certainly think it's relevant.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Star said:


> does anyone know what these levels should be for a man in his early 40's?


The Encronologist I took my husband to told me for a 45 yr old , "normal" average levels are between 500-600. My husbands 9 tested morning results ranged from the lowest being 323 - to the highest being 503, once his free test was below normal... ... she told me his results were "normal" for a 60 yr old man, which really upset me , I was a worrying mess for awhile about this comment. 

But I kept reading and came to learn that SOME men are natually just lower most of their life -and they can handle these lower numbers better than someone who was originally higher & took a huge dive in their numbers ---so again, it REALLY does all come down to SYMPTOMS.

300-500 area is a pure GRAY area for men. SOme truly need treatment, some don't. 

She told me she "expects" my husband will probably need treatment in his future, I now take that with a grain of salt. She also told me weight lifting is worthless & starting on things such as Tribulus terrestris -would only hurt him, but many others say it works for them. 

I have heard from other Low T sufferers (on Health boards) that Encronologists are the absolute worse Doctors to go to for Treatment as they generally tend to look only at the #'s -and this often speaks treatment or no treatment in thier practice, telling you to come back in another 6 months or so to see if you fall below thier LAB guidelines. Really a shame.


----------



## Minncouple

Simply Amourous - Your last statement sums it up. 95% of Encronologists are completely ignorant to HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy. They are too in thier ways from out dated medical books written 20-30 years ago. It is also about 10% of what the actually work with in terms of pateints.

A Anti-Aging clinic will be the most reliable information. Find a clinic that has a Dr working there and they can help you.

True - levels vary from individual to individual, some guys are fine at 300, while some guys are a wreck. It should be more based on results and feelings, than blood work.

Also, weight training, eating right over a life time DO help retain natural levels. Starting to work out at 60 wont help much though. The statement that working out will only hurt him assures me your doctor is completely ignorant. How would leading a healthier lifestyle hurt someone?

In closing, there are two levels checked on blood panels. ) natural test, and 2) free test. One is that which is being used, the other test that is available for use. They should be kid of close, say natural at 300, and free at 350-500.


----------



## eagleclaw

Another point to mention is this can change drastically. I quit smoking last year, had huge relationship stress and had ALL the symptoms including ED, anxiety, sleeplessness, no energy etc. Test at 400.

6 Months later, feeling better, over withdrawl, sleeping, not as tired. Tested at 580.

I still have some anxiety, and ED is much better - I am convinced it's now a mental problem as I can worry about it and get anxiety and cause it to happen - but when I don't overthink things it works fine. If u suprise me, I get hard right away. If you tell me in an hour your going to jump me I start thinking about it and it's more difficult. My whole life I never even thought about it until it happened once last year and now it's a seed in my brain.

However - My testosterone definately took a dive last year but came back up. I'm 40 in two months.


----------



## Minncouple

Agree, stress is a very big factor with your health. Stress on the body causes release of cortisol, thus breaking down the body. It can be a real tough one to deal with.

There was a period of time I was under alot of stress, you could put 3 strippers in front of me and I couldnt give a crap about them, during sex with my wife I was only about 75% into it. My test levels during that time were around 1100 (200-1000 was the range).

As far as ED, it is mostly mental. I had a one time "issue" and it really beat me up for months.


----------



## Fyrpwr

Wow! Thankyou all for your input here. I been dealing with all this for many years and started Androgel @3 months ago. 1 month into it and T went to 797 from 220. Now its back down to 310 and feeling miserable again. Doc increased Andro to 7.5 and im waiting. Im getting impatient and sick of these feelings. Sorry to get yal off topic. Guess i just needed a place to vent that can understand me. Thanks again!!!


----------



## Runs like Dog

A T count test should be before 10am. Make sure your times are consistent.


----------



## Deejo

After just over 30 days, I had my T levels checked as part of a scheduled physical.

Total T was 430 ... yup, that's 30 points higher than my baseline of two previous tests, without the Testopel.

So ... as far as the numbers go, the pellets haven't done much of anything other than giving my ass an interesting dimple.


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> After just over 30 days, I had my T levels checked as part of a scheduled physical.
> 
> Total T was 430 ... yup, that's 30 points higher than my baseline of two previous tests, without the Testopel.
> 
> So ... as far as the numbers go, the pellets haven't done much of anything other than giving my ass an interesting dimple.


That's both good and bad.

If you go to the shot, you'll know for sure if raising the level mitigates all your concerns.

But, you'll lose that cute little dimple on the cheek of your ass.

I guess you take the bad with the good.


----------



## Deejo

Conrad said:


> That's both good and bad.
> 
> If you go to the shot, you'll know for sure if raising the level mitigates all your concerns.
> 
> But, you'll lose that cute little dimple on the cheek of your ass.
> 
> I guess you take the bad with the good.


Decisions ... decisions ...

I'll have a chat with my urologist. I'm presuming this is 'unexpected'. Maybe it was loose change he put in there after all.


----------



## nice777guy

FWIW - still having similar symptoms to Deejo's.

Passed the "T" test and the sleep test. Doc has me on meds for a low, but normal thyroid test and I feel no upside after 3 weeks.

Someone else mentioned Adrenal Fatigue to me. Not sure that all "modern" doctors are embracing this - but it might be something to add to your list if the other tests come out looking "normal."

Can supposedly be brought on after a prolonged period of stress (separation, divorce, lousy marriage - the stuff we deal with here).

Seeing my doc next week - will post if I get any more info.

Again - Deejo - thanks for the openness and honesty.


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> FWIW - still having similar symptoms to Deejo's.
> 
> Passed the "T" test and the sleep test. Doc has me on meds for a low, but normal thyroid test and I feel no upside after 3 weeks.
> 
> Someone else mentioned Adrenal Fatigue to me. Not sure that all "modern" doctors are embracing this - but it might be something to add to your list if the other tests come out looking "normal."
> 
> Can supposedly be brought on after a prolonged period of stress (separation, divorce, lousy marriage - the stuff we deal with here).
> 
> Seeing my doc next week - will post if I get any more info.
> 
> Again - Deejo - thanks for the openness and honesty.


Given my lack of results, it is difficult to gauge, but the ADD side of the equation really hadn't changed much at all. I occasionally still will pop 10 mg of adderall if I need to be wired in at work.

Must say, as an aside ... I never cease to be amazed what impact diet and exercise can have on alertness and energy, especially in light of the ADD. It's critical for me.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Given my lack of results, it is difficult to gauge, but the ADD side of the equation really hadn't changed much at all. I occasionally still will pop 10 mg of adderall if I need to be wired in at work.
> 
> Must say, as an aside ... I never cease to be amazed what impact diet and exercise can have on alertness and energy, especially in light of the ADD. It's critical for me.


What really, truly has me puzzled right now is how much better I feel during the act of exercise. Once I start moving, I feel great - but it doesn't seem to carry over to the next day or next hour even.

On the plus side, I'm exercising more than I have in a long time. On the downside, its aggravating because I don't feel any better overall. Very aggravating...


----------



## eagleclaw

It's been over a year since I first had issues with this. And only now am I starting to feel more and more like I used to. I think once these problems/symptoms get into your head it's hell getting them out. I'm not supplementing at all - just working through issues, exercising way more and resting better.


----------



## AgentD

My husband has this issue. When he first talked to his doc about it over a year ago, and they did the test his levels were about 200, or less if I remember correctly. They put him on meds, he had been on them for awhile and it seemed to help some but nothing major. He went back to his doc for a check up and they were low again, well thats because he wasn't using the medicine. His doc seems to think his is a combination of things one was the fact he drank, plus diabeties and high blood pressure run in his family as well.


----------



## Minncouple

Deejo - a few commnets.

It has been a while since I have logged into this site, so cathcing up.

1) Going from 400 to 430 is not progress. Like driving 30 mph and then speeding up to 32 mph. It wont make any difference. Results you may feel are placebo. 

2) Pellets, gels are the latest spin on an old product. Remarketed by drug companies to boost sales and pushed by docs as the reps buy them sports tickets. 

3) The only modern advantage to gels/pellets is the shorter half lives, thus daily doses, thus steadier levels. But, injections are not that bad on levels either. It's a trade off.

4) Testing levels when using a short acting half live drug is very difficult. First, one must be taking the test at the exact same time daily for a week. Two, the tests must be pulled the exact same times between drug application and blood pulls. The shorter the half lives, the harder to get acurate reads over the long haul. I have had pulled blood daily over 7 days after shots and figured out the platues and highs. 

I hope you can figure out what works for you.


----------



## Runs like Dog

430 is well within the normal range.


----------



## Deejo

Don't 'feel' normal. 

Fatigue. Joint pain. low energy, sex issues ... my plan is to 'explore' HRT to see if increasing my T has some positive impact.

The pellets are a pain in the a$$, literally. Following my leg workouts, I invariably have a good deal of soreness, and even continued bruising in the area they were implanted on my derrier.

Think I'm going to try injections.


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> Don't 'feel' normal.
> 
> Fatigue. Joint pain. low energy, sex issues ... my plan is to 'explore' HRT to see if increasing my T has some positive impact.
> 
> The pellets are a pain in the a$$, literally. Following my leg workouts, I invariably have a good deal of soreness, and even continued bruising in the area they were implanted on my derrier.
> 
> Think I'm going to try injections.


Sounds like the right move.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Deejo said:


> The pellets are a pain in the a$$, literally. Following my leg workouts, I invariably have a good deal of soreness, and even continued bruising in the area they were implanted on my derrier.
> 
> Think I'm going to try injections.


A trocar seems to be a radical solution. And injections need to be done by a nurse, no? Are you looking for a target range? Anything over 700 is generally abuse.


----------



## Deejo

Runs like Dog said:


> A trocar seems to be a radical solution. And injections need to be done by a nurse, no? Are you looking for a target range? Anything over 700 is generally abuse.


Then consider me abusive. Discussions with my MD, we were shooting for around 800 ng/dl


----------



## Conrad

800 range?

Join the club.

Watch out what you wish for.

It will be more difficult for Catherine to understand you


----------



## Minncouple

Some pretty miss-informed responses.

1) tests are all different in terms of ranges. The majority use a 200-1000 range.

2) 800 IS NOT abuse. The range is 200 - 1000. By that logic, if 800 is abuse, 430 could be termed neglect. 

3) Most men feel better in the range or 600-900, at 400 most if not all feel sluggish, lazy, fat gain, tired. Almost all I have worked with (90&) had those symptoms disappear when they were in the upper range.

4) Shots do not need to be given by a nurse. They will instruct you on how to perform them.

5) "800, good luck", if a male is at say 300/400, a level of 700/800 can easily be acheived by a single shot of 200mg test a week. About 90% of males can acheive this result. A few require more, a few less. A estimate does is first given, and peformed for a min. of 4 weeks, and blood is retested. Then adjustments are made.

I need to qualify some of my comments. Testosterone therapy is not the solution and end all for all your symptoms. At the age of 40-60, you will not feel like 20 again. It will make you feel better, but dont expect a miracle.

I have been around HRT for almost 17 years and help/worked with many folks (also women). Modern day medicine is based on making money, not helping lives. Pellets, gels do work, but thier intent is a re-marketing of an old product. This really isnt that difficult to do as doctors make you believe. But, it is critical to find a doctor or anti aging clinic that deals soley with this. Most doctors today simply dont get it.


----------



## Runs like Dog

@ 800-1000 have fun going Chris Benoit on someone.


----------



## Deejo

Runs like Dog said:


> @ 800-1000 have fun going Chris Benoit on someone.


RLD, honest to God, many of your posts make me laugh out loud ... in a good way. I like your humor. I also think your wife is crazy but that's for another thread ...

I have sincerely tried to do my due diligence in this regard. Minncouple has been a great resource and sounding board.

I am hopeful that HRT will mitigate some of my symptoms. I have no expectation of magical elixir results.

I would like to resolve my sexual issues. I would like to be able to continue working out without the joint pain I have picked up in the last 2 years, and I would like to know if it has an impact on my energy level and ability to stay focused.

Watched a documentary on Netflix called Bigger, Stronger, Faster
Great documentary about performance enhancing drugs, told (in my opinion) equitably and fairly, by a non-user. 'Roid Rage' and the Benoit case, along with others, was addressed. They even showed footage from some old Ben Affleck movie where he busts up rooms and throws women around ... all due to taking anabolic steroids. According to the research, this simply isn't true. Again, I don't state that as an advocate. I don't know if I'm an advocate yet. But I do want to be informed.

I have been trying to do more research online, and have found Minncouple's opinion echoed elsewhere. That the pellets and gels although different methods of delivery, accomplish the same thing as intramuscular injections ... only they are much more pharma friendly, meaning they are cash cows. 

I did discover an Aging Center in Boston, and I may make an appointment with these folks. My urologist just hasn't been terribly responsive. Can't shake the feeling that he is more into marketing than problem solving.


----------



## Conrad

It's a bummer how much influence big pharma has.

This is from a pharmacist.


----------



## Minncouple

@ Runs like Dog - Completely ignorant statement. Benoit was an abuser of many many recreational drugs. The media jumps of the steroid issue every chance it gets. They neglected to discuss the extasy, cocaine, opiates, and other prescip drugs he was using in very high doses. In addition, the autopsy's show brain damage due to the years of abuse on his body due to wrestling, of which are a factor in his behaviors Similiar to how football players are now in the limelight. 

Deejo - Bigger, faster, stronger is not bad documentary, but be clear in watch yoru watching. These guys were part of the bodybuilding world and using very high doses. While HRT is like having one cup of coffee, these guys were drinking gallons of coffee. It really needs to be looked at for what it is. 

I was/am those guys in that movie. I began steroid use at age 22, and have not stopped. I have though, educated myself through trial and error and also through inside the body building community. These guys are the leading edge in steroid use, they are the subjects through trial and error. Sad for sure, but its the truth.

I stopped using high amounts at age 35, and now simply maintain with HRT. I can attest to many pro bodybuilders usage, it is unbelievable. HRT is in the range of 200-300 mg's of test a week, and maybe an anti estogen. Pro's/wrestlers are using on average of 2000-3000 mg test, 400-600 mg's Tren, Anadrol 50's at 3 a day, and 6-10 IU's of growth a day. A pro will maintain a blood level of at least 2500-3000, yes that is right. While you are shooting for 800, these guys are 3-4 times that. I have sppken with many top athelete's, they sweep it under the carpet, but it happens. 

Main stream doctors are not properly educated in HRT, maybe 10% out there understand it. A reputable anti-aging clinic is the best source. 

I'm not trying to be an advocate for HRT or steroids, I really dont care if someone wants help or not. But, I will speak the truths about it if asked.

It's not the use thats wrong, its the abuse.


----------



## Runs like Dog

It occurs to me you're using some kind of different test other than the one typically employed by a urologist for your baselines or you're looking at an un normalized distribution. 1000 is in the 95% for a healthy non diabetic man age 25. A median value for a normal distribution for a man age 40 is about 450. There are some doctors who work with HIV patients who recommend very high values. And of course the MDs who work with iron monkeys tinkering with anabolics are advocating numbers higher than 1000-1200. 

I'm not an MD AFAIK no one here is. I recommend you find one.


----------



## Minncouple

@ Runs like dog

It is actually a universally used test, and peformed through Labcorp.

Tests are: Testosterone (free & total), complete CBC with differential /platelet, comp. metabolic panel (14), lipid profile, estradiol, prostate-specific ag, serum, Ambig abbrev CMP14 default.

The distribution is one in the same as you metion in your post below. Based on a Labcorp test range (200-1000), I am really not sure or clear on your points. In addition, your percentages are incorrect. Based on a (labcorp/Mayo clinic) blood panel the range is 200-1000, thus 600 is a median and 1000 is 100 percentile of the range. I really cant tell you what a "normal" range is for a 40yo male, but I do know that most 40 yo males experience the side effects of lower testosterone levels. Thus, raising blood levels (still within medically acceptable "normal" limits) does help the individual.

I think you are believing that "normal" and "feeling better" are one in the same, they are not. We are discussing two seperate issues here.

As far as AIDS research and muscle waisting is concerned, the primary medications being used are; Anadrol, Anavar, and HGH, not soley testosterone. Testosterone used alone did not combat muscle waisting in AIDS.

My doctor is one of the leading authors on Anti-aging means/methods/practices, no need to be replaced.


----------



## notaname

Bumping a good thread.

My H told me today he has low testosterone but wants to find a natural solution. Hmmm. I am going to ask him exactly what his level was now that I've read this.

Thanks for all the helpful info.


----------



## MEM2020

Deejo,
Do you take calcium vitamins? Those have helped a LOT with joint pain over the last decade. When I consistently combine calcium and load bearing exercise it seems to strengthen my joints. I use Caltrate. I also take a centrum silver every day.




Deejo said:


> RLD, honest to God, many of your posts make me laugh out loud ... in a good way. I like your humor. I also think your wife is crazy but that's for another thread ...
> 
> I have sincerely tried to do my due diligence in this regard. Minncouple has been a great resource and sounding board.
> 
> I am hopeful that HRT will mitigate some of my symptoms. I have no expectation of magical elixir results.
> 
> I would like to resolve my sexual issues. I would like to be able to continue working out without the joint pain I have picked up in the last 2 years, and I would like to know if it has an impact on my energy level and ability to stay focused.
> 
> Watched a documentary on Netflix called Bigger, Stronger, Faster
> Great documentary about performance enhancing drugs, told (in my opinion) equitably and fairly, by a non-user. 'Roid Rage' and the Benoit case, along with others, was addressed. They even showed footage from some old Ben Affleck movie where he busts up rooms and throws women around ... all due to taking anabolic steroids. According to the research, this simply isn't true. Again, I don't state that as an advocate. I don't know if I'm an advocate yet. But I do want to be informed.
> 
> I have been trying to do more research online, and have found Minncouple's opinion echoed elsewhere. That the pellets and gels although different methods of delivery, accomplish the same thing as intramuscular injections ... only they are much more pharma friendly, meaning they are cash cows.
> 
> I did discover an Aging Center in Boston, and I may make an appointment with these folks. My urologist just hasn't been terribly responsive. Can't shake the feeling that he is more into marketing than problem solving.


----------



## Deejo

Take a multi, fish and flax oil, cal, mag, zinc supplement and Glucosamine.

The joint thing has become very noticeable over the last 12 months. Particularly my hips, after giving the kids a piggy back, or doing squats. Also my forearm/elbow junction, most noticeable when doing pull-ups, pull-downs, or curls.


----------



## Runs like Dog

notaname said:


> Bumping a good thread.
> 
> My H told me today he has low testosterone but wants to find a natural solution. Hmmm. I am going to ask him exactly what his level was now that I've read this.
> 
> Thanks for all the helpful info.


There really are no 'natural' solutions that are close to as effective as testosterone. Any urologist will prescribe it. It's pricey but discounts are available.


----------



## notaname

Runs like Dog said:


> There really are no 'natural' solutions that are close to as effective as testosterone. Any urologist will prescribe it. It's pricey but discounts are available.


That's not surprising. He did say something about the "receptors" dying or getting used to it or something so that the dose would have to be increased over time...He is pretty anti-pharma.

He also has higher than normal estrogen.

Anyway, he gives T shots at work all the time. We would only have to pay a small copay if he ended up on it. :smthumbup:


----------



## Deejo

notaname said:


> He also has higher than normal estrogen.


Then he definitely needs the assistance of a knowledgeable physician. And in simple terms, he isn't injecting a drug per se ... it's the equivalent of stating that a diabetic injecting insulin is using a drug. It is a matter of using a synthesized version of a hormone that your body no longer produces naturally in adequate supply.

If estrogen is an issue, he may very likely need a secondary drug to inhibit further estrogen aromatization.


----------



## Runs like Dog

FYI testosterone aromatizes in the presence of high levels of body fat.


----------



## AFEH

I’ve lived in Portugal for the past 4 years. In that time I got very used to going to the market for fruit and veg. At first I couldn’t work out what was going on. I’d get to the market and one week there weren’t any oranges, next week no strawberries, then no grapefruit. It took a while to dawn on me that everything was seasonal and the fruit and veg were picked when they were “ready to eat”. So more or less it was the same as picking an orange off the tree etc.

I used to buy enough fruit for a week or two as I did in England. Sometimes oranges etc. would “last” more than a month. In Portugal I now buy for no more than three days because after that time fruit quickly “goes off”.

I’ve been back in England for a few months and I’ve given up the thought of getting my vitamins and minerals from the fruit and veg here. I actually don’t think it has any so I’ve put myself on supplements. That is of course until I get back to Portugal. In the UK one of Tescos “claims to fame” is that they can keep an orange for 12 months before it goes on the shelves. An orange is supposed to have around 120 mg vit C in it. Don’t think there’s any in these oranges.

Bob


----------



## Halien

Deejo said:


> Don't 'feel' normal.
> 
> Fatigue. Joint pain. low energy, sex issues ... my plan is to 'explore' HRT to see if increasing my T has some positive impact.
> 
> The pellets are a pain in the a$$, literally. Following my leg workouts, I invariably have a good deal of soreness, and even continued bruising in the area they were implanted on my derrier.
> 
> Think I'm going to try injections.


From past posts, I'm sure you've explored other avenues, but I'd like to offer my own, highly unscientific observations, since I am a similar age.

I have to pay close attention to my body and its signals because I have a very minor, and rare muscular dystrophy. I won't give the name, because I'm sure my info is on a list somewhere. Basically, my only noticable problem is sometimes painful muscles.

This problem affects all cells. Not just muscle. So, my blood sugar level is always pretty low. The docs connected to MDA think its related, but not much research is done on this problem. 

After reading quite a few of the references provided my my doctors, I began to believe that several parallel factors come together at our age. Someone mentioned some of these in other replies. At our age, its all about coping.

A few months ago, I began cutting out many processed foods, simple sugars and carbohydrates. And beef and pork. Believe it or not, there's lots of things you can do with chicken breasts. I eat fish also. The biggest of these I avoid is bread, desserts, many snack foods, etc. Now, many times I just drink fat free milk throughout the day.

Because so little is known about the problem, my internist will support many of the tests I want to run. A few years ago, I was discouraged to find out that my testosterone was low average. My wife and I enjoyed long sessions of intimacy, and this was becoming harder (or not harder, if you get my drift).

Now, I feel so much better that I really don't care about my testosterone levels. Its not a problem. I am feeling really energetic, and back to my old self. I've never been high strung, but I tend to keep really active, always doing things. 

Or, maybe it is a problem. My wife and I are separating. She visited her home city recently for job interviews. Apparently, she told her friends about the separation, so a few brought casseroles. Our kids will stay with me. One separated acquaintance, but not necessarily a friend, told me to call her if I needed anything. I told her that I was a chef in college, and didn't want to burden people for food, and her reply left me ... I don't know, the kids said I was really grumpy. She said that men don't always need food. This troubles me. Was she referring to laundry?


----------



## Clanky

I'm a new member to this site and forum. I found it from among the results that scrolled up when I googled "attention deficit disorder" along with "testosterone" in the same search. 

This post is about testosterone, but please read my intro.

I am 50. When I was 30, I lost my right nut to testicular cancer.

From the time I was 30 to about 37 or so, things were fine. Then I ran into some events of low lying depression. I was prescribed with Zoloft at the time, and it seemed to help. I also started working out. I got to feeling pretty good and decided on my own to taper off the Zoloft. After a short while, my mental state seemed to slip. So, I went back on, but my second "tour" with Zoloft didn't seem to help at all. I seemed to recover on my own.

A long-time bachelor, I married at 39. A year or so into my marriage, my high-paying job crumbled in a perfect storm of political upheaval. 

Since I married a widow with two young kids, my evenings in the gym had long since curtailed. I started sleeping in and putting on weight. My wife started losing interest in having sex with me. (Imagine that.)

Over the years, I was diagnosed with depression or ADD (the inattentive kind -- not the hyperactive kind). Adderall, Wellbutrin, and other drugs were doled out to me, along with cheap co-pays to fill 'em up at my local CVS pharmacy.

Years clicked off from 2000 to 2008, my marriage gradually eroding and degrading. I began to accept a marriage that had no sex as exactly what people told me would happen before I got married. When there were attempts, I found that I had lost my libido and skills. I had been very good with my hands for example, but I lost the connection between my fingertips and the clitoris. It was like my hand had turned to stone. You lady readers know the frustration of being with a man who doesn't know how to touch you. It is perhaps even more frustrating to be the man who once knew how to touch but then could no longer do it. Sadly, neither of us ever had the thought to look into a retreat or get medical attention for "this" aspect of the marriage. Other counseling routed us into a social worker who could only seem to harp on how I need to cope with my alleged ADD.

A word about Adderall.. it created this early day sensation and belief that I could accomplish anything. It was like being high without feeling like I was on a high. In the late afternoon, however, I would come off of it and become highly irritable. This was very bad with kids (or anyone), so I dumped this stuff, too. There were some other drugs, too, and I can't even think of all of them right now. Focalin... if I post again, maybe I'll have the laundry list... one of them was very hard to get off of, and I remember having "knocking sounds" in my ears for a week or so while it was working its way out of my system.

Anyway, in 2008, my wife filed for divorce. I had gone from job to job, and she was handling the finances at this point. My ability to concentrate on conversations, responsibilities, and more had at this point gone out the window. Still I plodded on. 

In early 2009, I saw my general doc about fatigue. He did some blood work and noted that my T count was in the cellar. Something like 27 or something... I don't remember if this was "free" testosterone or what, but I knew that 27 was in the toilet. He said, "This is out of my area of expertise, so I am going to send you to an endrocrinologist."

Cutting to the chase, I have been seeing this endocrinologist about three times/year. He first had me on Testim, but then when Solvay came out with Androgel in the pump bottle, we switched to that. 

Where I'm at today: things are much improved. I take about 4 pumps of Androgel daily. My thinking is much clearer than it has been in years. Even though I am a uniballer, my libido is back. I am using words that I haven't used in years -- it's like I got my vocabulary back. My ex-wife still doesn't want to have much to do with me, but I wouldn't mind one turn in the sack with her just to let her remember the good times one more night. 

My career is not yet repaired. It's hard to find a job when your "resume" for the last ten years is hardly worth the paper it's printed on. I did have a nice job for the first quarter of this year, but I lost it when I had to blow the whistle on some illegal activity. I rocked the boat, but of course had I not rocked it, I was going to end up wrapped up in the very thing I found myself uncovering.

I have long been off the ADD meds, as well as the SSRIs. And SSRI's... that stuff really screws up libido, sheesh. So, today it's just testosterone. As a result, I am getting re-introduced to myself, a guy who has probably been missing for about ten years or so.

Well, that's my brief story and intro. I have not re-read this or proofed it, so I hope it reads well and makes sense. It's a little after midnight right now, and it's time to turn in.


----------



## Fyrpwr

Hi all! I been on Androgel for @7 months. About 1.5 months into It I started to feel great. Would awake in the morning and exclaim "Im Back!" Well that only lasted for a few days and I could feel myself going back down. Mild depression, joint pain, life sucks, etc. 
I still have 5 weeks to wait for an endochronologist to see me.
I called my GP thinking I needed an estrogen blocker. He said no, my levels are fine. 
He's had me on Effexor for a few years now. Recently raising from 75mg to 150mg. I know that stuff isnt working!
So, 2 days ago, after no improvement in 7 months, I have quit Andro and Effexor. When this all began my Free T was 227 and GP says its now over 800.
Im 47yrs old, over weight and know i dont eat right. Things i need to change. 
But until then im hoping my Endo will be my savior. Gonna be a long 5 weeks!
Whew! Got that off my chest! Thanks!


----------



## Runs like Dog

Did you have your red cell count checked? Androgel can send it into the high zone. Also make sure you didn't wind up with hypertension. Your T# is at the high normal range for a man of any age. Any higher you're in the Barry Bonds zone. It is possible that high T# is causing mood disorders. That's not uncommon.

A few comments on Effexor/Pristiq. Venlafaxine or 
Desvenlafaxine have the shortest half life of any of the common anti-d's. They metabolize very rapidly. This means that missing a day or even missing a few hours can make you feel like crap. They are also the hardest of that family of anti-'s to quit. Harder than Citalopram. You can get pretty messed up trying to quit. Patients have checked themselves in the hospital, thought they were dying, having strokes, etc. Also one significant side effect of Effexor is significant weight gain. To its credit, Effexor is a good last line defense. It works better than almost anything to pull you out of black hell. 150mg/d is at the top of the range for self administration. You can't go any higher if you wanted to.

My lay opinion is that you were given too much of both. Less of both might have worked better.


----------



## Fyrpwr

Runs Like Dog: Thanks so much for your reply. Although Ive become frustrated and impatient, after reading your reply i realized i was overreacting. 
I have no idea what my red blood cell count is.
Venlafaxine does have terrible side effects getting off it. When i first started it my GP claimed it was ok to start and stop it. The nasty side effects of coming off lasted me 2 weeks. That was 2 years ago. Been back on it ever since.
I was on 7.5g Androgel and 150mg Venlafaxine. I recently quit Androgel for 2 days, and yesterday started using 2.5g Andro and 75mg Venlafaxine.
I feel better today than i have in a long time. 
Hopefully this works better until i get in to see the Endo. 
You were spot on with the hypertension. I've been treated for it for many years. Recently it has been getting worse and my GP doubled the dose of Avapro. That started about the same time he doubled the Venlafaxine! Go figure...

Thanks, Dale


----------



## 827Aug

There may be a correlation between the Effexor and the testosterone. Effexor is sometimes given to women for hot flashes. It's usually given to those who have had breast cancer and can't be given estrogen supplements. 

Definitely see an endocrinologist to get the meds worked out.


----------



## Fyrpwr

I,ve got my appointment for endocrinologist in middle of july. Made it in april.
I really do appreciate the replies. I'm learning stuff I never thought I needed to know.


----------



## Deejo

Saw my urologist today. No more testopel. Pain in the ass ... literally.

Going for weekly injections of testosterone cypionate. Starting next week.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Why no trocar? And why no topical andro if I may ask?


----------



## Deejo

I wanted to avoid the transdermals because I have young children that I am often in contact with. Just made me nervous.

I used Testim for a week. The fragrance was pretty overwhelming. So much so that it set off my asthma.

The testopel experiment was disappointing. Even moreso, it's not like they could correct it on the fly. Once it's in ... it's in. Also kept re-bruising the area where the pellets were inserted if I did heavy exercise. If I understand 'trocar' correctly, I believe testopel is likely inserted with such a device. Reminds me of the Ron Popeil, Solid Flavor Injector ...

I have no fear of needles, and from a convenience perspective, I am less likely to forget due to ADD ... I think once a week injections sound pretty good.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> I wanted to avoid the transdermals because I have young children that I am often in contact with. Just made me nervous.
> 
> I used Testim for a week. The fragrance was pretty overwhelming. So much so that it set off my asthma.
> 
> The testopel experiment was disappointing. Even moreso, it's not like they could correct it on the fly. Once it's in ... it's in. Also kept re-bruising the area where the pellets were inserted if I did heavy exercise. If I understand 'trocar' correctly, I believe testopel is likely inserted with such a device. Reminds me of the Ron Popeil, Solid Flavor Injector ...
> 
> I have no fear of needles, and from a convenience perspective, I am less likely to forget due to ADD ... I think once a week injections sound pretty good.


Best of luck to you hon! You and your doctor will find the right solution so please don't give up.
I had to laugh at the Ronco flavor injector part. We got back yesterday from a weekend away and none of us could sleep. It was nearly 4 am and we all sprung up like daisies and the only thing on was the infomercial for the flavor injector. I literally turned to my husband and said "You could shove pills in that thing". Who knew somebody else had the same idea. :lol:


----------



## Deejo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Best of luck to you hon! You and your doctor will find the right solution so please don't give up.
> I had to laugh at the Ronco flavor injector part. We got back yesterday from a weekend away and none of us could sleep. It was nearly 4 am and we all sprung up like daisies and the only thing on was the infomercial for the flavor injector. I literally turned to my husband and said "You could shove pills in that thing". Who knew somebody else had the same idea. :lol:


Great minds ...


----------



## ThinkTooMuch

Deejo said:


> I wanted to avoid the transdermals because I have young children that I am often in contact with. Just made me nervous.
> 
> I used Testim for a week. The fragrance was pretty overwhelming. So much so that it set off my asthma.
> 
> .....
> 
> I have no fear of needles, and from a convenience perspective, I am less likely to forget due to ADD ... I think once a week injections sound pretty good.


Once a week I inject 1 ml with outstanding [sorry] success. Making love is more wonderful than it was 40 years ago but a lot of that is due to my girlfriend of barely a month, a woman of my age who was married to a fellow who must have had very low T levels and has found she loves being loved by this nice guy. As importantly I am getting stronger and loosing weight w/o any real effort on my part, my weak leg is definitely better and I am able to walk w/o a cane for the first time in years.

A one and a half inch 23 gauge needle is barely noticeable when plunged into my gluteus maximus.


----------



## Runs like Dog

FWIW there's a new spin on Androgel @ 1.62% concentration. It requires far fewer pumps and uses a smaller coverage area - upper arms only. Androgel is known to not have awful aroma of Testim. It's 98% alcohol gel. The only downside is it will explode if you smoke while you apply it.


----------



## Deejo

Concern at this point is that I have familial high cholesterol. Despite my eating pretty well, by looking at my numbers you would presume I subsisted off of pork rinds and sticks of butter.


----------



## Conrad

That's called the "Conrad Diet" for those of you watching at home.



Deejo said:


> Concern at this point is that I have familial high cholesterol. Despite my eating pretty well, by looking at my numbers you would presume I subsisted off of pork rinds and sticks of butter.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Untreated my gross # is north of 300.


----------



## Deejo

Have been on injections for about 6 weeks. Will be going to have my levels checked again within the next 2 weeks.

No issues with injections thus far. I feel a bit 'clearer'. Don't expect that to make any sense.


----------



## Deejo

Had my first post injection blood screening. Total Test was 510.

That's up about 100 points from previous screens.

Can't say I feel drastically different. But, it is 100% more progress than I had using the pellets.


----------



## LexusNexus

I didn’t read your entire post but I have a good idea what you are going thru. My English is sucks but I will try to explain myself. I have been suffering from ADD/ADHD since I was a kid. In Soviet Union any minor disorder considers Mental Issue, so I never admit that I had a problem. I am fluent in 5 languages only because I have photo graphic memory and I can only rely on my photographic memory, I can’t concentrate, I can only memorize stuff, but your memory can only hold certain amount of info. So I choose what to remember. If I remembering something, I associate this with something like a smell or color and etc. By the end of the day I feel exhausted and tired. That’s why I lost so many keys and cell phones. Also I experience “DAY FOG”. or day dreaming.
For example I am reading a book, after reading for 20 minutes I realize I have no idea what I was just reading. That’s why there is exercise for reading. 

I can dedicate one page to ADD/ADHD and how to deal with it.

Now here is interesting part, I am sure you heard about drug called Adderall or D Salt Amphetamine I don’t know if its right place to discuss. It’s a very dangerous drug if you don’t know what you doing. I have being taken Adderall for 3 years. I experienced a lot with this drug, and finally I got great results. I became an expert in this field, I achieved great success. At the same time I almost ruined my marriage, and I got addicted to Adderall and caffeine.

I also suffered from insomnia and erectile dysfunction. I developed OCD, COPD and BPD. I finally was able to control everything. If you interested I can give you more info.


----------



## LexusNexus

Just want to add erectile dysfunction, OCD, COPD and BPD, was psychological in my case.


----------



## LexusNexus

If you want quality Natural supplements look into the brand called Metagenics. They are more expensive but better qaulity. 
I take EPA-DHA liquid (fish oil)
Fibroplex (soft tissue suport)
Vitamin D
WeighTech protein powder as a meal replacement 50-60 gramms per day.
CoQ 10 

They have natural product called Cholarest SC its for Healthy Blood Lipids Levels.


----------



## VeryHurt

Deejo said:


> Had my first post injection blood screening. Total Test was 510.
> 
> That's up about 100 points from previous screens.
> 
> Can't say I feel drastically different. But, it is 100% more progress than I had using the pellets.


I've been reading a lot of the TAM posts on Low T and now I am wondering if my H should see an Endocrinologist? 
He saw a Urologist last month.


----------



## LexusNexus

If you interested about Natural Male products I can mention them too. I am just not sure if it’s a an appropriate place.

As far as workouts, everybody have their own technique. My goal is endurance and be fit. I change my work out routines every 3-4 weeks. I like to work out before work.

Here is my routine: 
Monday 40-50 cardio (stair master)
2 groups of muscles (chest and triceps)
Each exercise is 4 sets and 12 repetitions
6 exercises for chest and 4 for triceps
Tuesday Morning No gym but I wake up in the morning and do 200 push up total, 100 sit up and 40 pull ups 
Wednesday 55 minutes cardio (spinning class)
3 groups of muscles (back, and biceps, and abdomen) 
6 exercises for the back and 6 for biceps
Thursday No gym but I take class Kravmaga and Cross fit 
Friday 35 cardio (elliptical) low impact on your knees then
I do circuit training 
Saturday no cardio just warm up and stretching 
2 groups of muscles (shoulder, trapezium and legs)
Sunday I swim Kravmaga and Crossfit 
If you have joint pains try to avoid hard impact on your body. Do low weight higher repetition, try yoga or palliates. Try spinning classes. As far as diet avoid Animal Products. Try green juice. Calories in Vs Calories out. Do not consume more then 1800 calories


----------



## NY Husband In Hell

I am getting testosterone pellet injections quarterly. I am loving life. The first time I git the injection - I felt like superman for a month. That is how far I was off the T scale. Now it is a normal and regular injection. I really fell better in the first few weeks after the injection. Energy, better sleep, and I am much less passive. 

Last time, after a shot - some guy tried to steal the parking space I was parked in front of saving for my wife (in NYC). The guy argued with my wife when she pulled into the spot. I was feeling the testosterone. I jumped out of the car and sternly told the driver "We life here - and that's my wife you're talking to ...do we have a problem"? I was on it - and the drive said he didn't want any trouble and apologized and drove off.


----------



## Deejo

So I have been taking testosterone cypionate 1ml injections every 10 days for the last 4 months.

My test went up by about 100 points. But ... my triglycerides went through the roof.

I'll be getting another follow-up blood screen for both in a few weeks.

Put me on a LDL reducing med ... set off my asthma, so they put me on another one.

We'll see. But the consensus is, that not having a heart attack outweighs having a healthy libido.

I have had two intimate encounters since being on Test. I did not need Viagra for either. But ... the equipment still requires coaxing for full deployment. That was a plus ...

Despite being on Test, have been tremendously lax about the gym. That needs to change.


----------



## AFEH

There was a great programme on tv the other night about hormones. The essence of the message was how little is known about them, especially the effect of quantities and how they interact with one another. Pharmaceutical companies are viewing them the same as toxins, which are apparently linear in their affect, not so with hormones.

Plus it seems there are a lot of hormones pumped into the food we eat and the packages the food is kept in. In one trial the scientists couldn’t believe the results they were getting relative to oestrogen. When they investigated it turned out the manufacturer of the test tubes they were using used oestrogen in the manufacturing process! I find that stuff difficult to believe. Why on earth use hormones in the manufacturing of test tubes and the like?

It got me to wondering after reading here just how much really is known about hormones plus just how much the docs check for. For example, it would seem pointless to me testing for testosterone if they don’t check for oestrogen at the same time. Especially as oestrogen is used in so many places, for example to make cows produce more milk etc. One of the cautions in the programme was about tomato ketchup of all things. Yes, high quantities of oestrogen are used in tomato ketchup. Now just think how prevalent the use of tomato ketchup. Those burgers while piling on the weight are very much likely making a total mess of hormone mixtures as well.


----------



## Deejo

Explains why I get teary over a good cheeseburger.

But no doubt, somewhere in that neverending c0cktail of chemicals, heavy metals, hormones, and antibiotics that we consume unawares through our food, likely also lies the reason for the overall baseline drop in testosterone within the male population.


----------



## AFEH

I used to work a lot with Americans. Took one to a famous restaurant for an evening meal. He took so long going through the menu and specials on the wall that I thought he just couldn’t make up his mind. Turns out he couldn’t find a burger and chips. To get away from that stuff takes a total life change.

Do they do a full spectrum on the hormones, or is it just testosterone?


----------



## AFEH

I’m of the mind it’s not just one thing with these things. For example zinc has a lot to do with testosterone generation so it would probably be good to have a full spectrum analysis of trace minerals and take zinc suplements. Plus for example not a lot happens without vit C so a full spec analysis of vitamins would be good as well. It’s amazing what daily pumpkin seeds and the like can do.


----------



## AFEH

Deejo I was just wondering if you’ve become knowledgeable on the whole hormone thing? Or do you put yourself totally in the hands of doctors? Did you know for example that the adrenal gland plays a large role in hormonal balance. That caffeine stimulates the adrenal gland to produce adrenaline. And that too much caffeine exhausts the adrenal system. I looked into caffeine a while back, it’s exceedingly toxic. So I stopped drinking coffee. The same afternoon I had a headache, I don’t get them normally, and that night I got twitching knees and ankles. Caffeine has a half life of 3.5 hours, headaches and twitching are part of the withdrawal symptoms.

If you haven’t done so already you might want to visit a naturopath. The best ones will ask you to complete a pretty big questionnaire so they can get a good understanding of your life style. If your hormones are out of balance, they’ll consult with you to produce a plan to get them back into balance.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Statins don't change triglycerides very much. You would have to be on mega doses of Niacin, in the 2000mg/day range. I'm thinking of going off HRT because it's raising my blood pressure and the possible additional side effect of high hematocrit. Since sex isn't going to happen anyway, there's not much need to worry about the hydraulics and such. Plus it's expensive.


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

I'm 56, I've never been tested , but many of the symptoms mentioned here were creeping in over the last ten years. Not wanting to go the pharma route I read everything I could about low T levels and how it often is hooked physical fitness. I'm now in the gym at least four days a week and cycle everyday. I'm down 20lbs, what ever fat I once had is now muscle and notice a huge difference in my libido and mental focus. Physically I'm now in better form than than I was in my early 30's and have more muscle than at any time of my life. From what I've read compound exercises that use large muscle groups like squats, kettlebell swings, dead lifts and rowing all raise T levels. To anyone whose interested I'd suggest trying the gym route first and see what happens, it can't hurt.


----------



## alphaomega

Deejo,

I'm intrigued by this post. I was starting to consider that maybe I am also suffering from this. I've just started to think about this issue so haven't read much about it yet.

My issue...

I'm hard all day. Seriously. Well, not seriously, bu god I'm randy.
Go to gym four times a week to do intense training.
Wear boxers.

Now...I'm not a big eater, but I'm gaining weight I can't seem to lose. About 20 lbs. even with cardio and weights it doesn't want to leave.
I'm exhausted at wierd hours. I'm good, but then I get so tired it almost feels like I'm going to have a narcoleptic episode or something.

Ok. That's it. But I've heard "rumors" that the last two symptoms are a sign of decreasing testosterone.
Being in my four ties now, I was starting to think maybe I need supplements to increase my levels.

Maybe it's time for a test.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lon

alphaomega said:


> Now...I'm not a big eater, but I'm gaining weight I can't seem to lose. About 20 lbs. even with cardio and weights it doesn't want to leave.
> I'm exhausted at wierd hours. I'm good, but then I get so tired it almost feels like I'm going to have a narcoleptic episode or something.


alphaomega, it sounds like your pregnant! Congrats! Enjoy getting the man boobs, you'll need them to breastfeed the newborn...


----------



## alphaomega

Lon said:


> alphaomega, it sounds like your pregnant! Congrats! Enjoy getting the man boobs, you'll need them to breastfeed the newborn...


I just KNEW I shouldn't have went off the pill! Crap! I just felt so moody all the time, though!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

Caffeine and Testosterone

3) Testosterone to Estrogen Ratio. Interestingly enough, caffeine increases testosterone. Unfortunately, it does not raise testosterone enough proportionately to compensate for the rise in cortisol, leaving one with a lowered testosterone-to-estrogen ratio.

From Coffee and Caffeine Dangers


Apparently in the factories where coffee’s produced there’s the skull and crossbones danger to health signs all over the place.


----------



## ThinkTooMuch

*Medical Marijuana and sensuality re T levels*

Now that I've been living in California for a year I have a recommendation from my physician for medical marijuana due to a neurological disease that has made walking difficult.

I'm also taking .75 ml/week of Testosterone Cypriate 200 mg/10ml. My T levels are at the right level, the shots not at all painful and my GF loves shooting me, as well as making love, frequently.

When I use mMJ, four tokes inhaled using a vaporizer are enough to make me very hard, increase my endurance, and greatly enhance sensual and sexual feelings as well as making it easier to walk. 

I will add we are both in our early 60s and having more fun than ever before.


----------



## Deejo

I'm due to get my levels checked again soon. Particularly as there appeared to be a spike in my lipid profile coinciding with HRT.

ED remains an issue. Although I can achieve an erection, I simply cannot maintain one for long periods of time ... which I require in order to reach orgasm.

Much like 60% of the female population, it is very difficult for me to have an orgasm during intercourse.

Prostate issues persist as well. Takes me a reeeaallly long time to urinate.

So in the scheme of things, I'm still not sure where the physiological ends, and the psychological takes hold. But, I have no doubt that they both play a role.

Disclosure is a funny thing.

I have chosen to be very upfront with my partners once it has become apparent that we are headed towards intimacy.

And I have to honestly say, for all of the times that a woman has said "Don't worry about it. It doesn't matter ..."

The fact remains ... it does matter.

I just don't look like the guy whose junk isn't supposed to work. I'm slender, very fit, and in the scheme of things, still pretty young. But at some point, each of my partners has basically asked, "Is it me?" ... in spite of my best laid plans to make it clear that this issue exists outside of the scope of the relationship ... or person.

I get it. Sex is deeply personal. Regardless of whether or not we treat it as such. Being intimate with someone affects us, and affects them. Consequently, my issue becomes their issue, and it has an impact.

I can honestly say at this point, that I'm not anxious about having sex. Functionally, there is little difference now then there was 3 years ago. 

Although, I will state, the difference between my ability to perform having stopped taking the ADD medication, is absolute night, and day.


----------



## Lon

Deejo thanks for this last post... I asked my doc to check my levels, he issued bloodwork but I didn't look close at the order, got back "free testosterone" numbers, he said it was above average (like 51, avg is sposed to be 35 or something) I still want to get a comprehensive hormone test though... At the time of my test I had been keeping on top of exercise (lifting). All along though the equip still hasn't been working consistently though... at first my gf said its ok, and at first I wasn't feeling anxiety about it either, but after awhile it became apparent that night it wasn't going to happen - there are times when it works perfectly it seems, atleast when my arousal is heightened but then the wind can go out of the sail so quick, especially when the rain jacket comes out. Last time we were together was a marathon night and I experienced all three phases of erectile state - premature e, one really close to mutual, and one that was delayed a long time (as much as I felt like a stud from that one it was starting to wear her out pretty good). It is definitely a psychological issue, but seems there is a sensitivity problem that makes it really hard to work this issue out.


----------



## Deejo

stritle said:


> i'd get a 2nd opinion Lon
> 
> keep checking into it until you get a dr. that looks at the sympoms and not just the numbers.


This is where I was fortunate, and I second stritles suggestion.
I was on the normal side as well, ranging from 300 - 400 ng/dl

My fatigue, and joint pain were the clinchers for me.

And as I stressed in my initial post, the issue I found was that my MD's wanted to treat all of the symptoms separately. Never occurred to anyone that many of them may be related to one thing.

Any of my existing issues could have been chalked up to problems resulting from other conditions, or worse, side effects of medication I was already taking.

It was very frustrating.


----------



## Minncouple

Lon - Simply having your "free test" levels checked isnt going to tell you anything. You must have: Test (free and natural), Estrodial, Prostate, RBC's. Free test is simply the test available floating around in your blood, natural is what is being used. 

Test levels can be the culprite for many different symptoms, if you doc treats your hormone levels and your thyroid, it will cure most of thosem symptoms you mentioned.


----------



## Lon

Deejo said:


> ...my MD's wanted to treat all of the symptoms separately. Never occurred to anyone that many of them may be related to one thing.


yeah this is why it seemed like a revalation when I started reading about HRT... low test explains ALL the symptoms I've been experiencing the last couple years. I didn't even realize that there were performance issues until after my separation, but now looking back I think it was a major factor in my sexless marriage, maybe part of the reason I gave up trying to pursue my W (and my career, my health/fitness and my social life).

So I will stay on this and ask for comprehensive hormone testing. My doc is sympathetic to my symptoms but seems to really want to compartmentalize it, treat my disthymia first with anti-depressants then go from there.


----------



## Lon

ftr, I am not really in favor of medication... I am trying to be open to the arguement in favor, I have relatives who know first hand (both as patient and physician) what the benefits are, however I find they are always reluctant to talk about the drawbacks, under the guise of optimism I suppose. I am trying to overcome my symptoms by addressing the cause and manage this through nutrition and exercise, but the depression cycles can definitely be a setback for this and my progress (if there even is any) seems slow. I think I am completely willing to take whatever chemical measures could help solve the root of my problem, I just don't want to feel like a guinea pig and just take whatever random pharmaceutical is marketable to me.


----------



## OhGeesh

Deejo, not that we see eye to eye on much, but low T usually doesn't manifest itself in ED! 

Guys are very much just fluid and piping it's all mechanics, so none of the current ED aids have helped?


----------



## AFEH

I always take the view that the doc will get it wrong, experience has taught me that’s the best way with them. I have used a naturopath Naturopathy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

_A consultation typically begins with a lengthy patient interview focusing on lifestyle, medical history, emotional tone, and physical features, as well as physical examination._

When I made the one hour appointment I got in the post a massive approx 200 questions to answer and return a week before I met her. It’s a whole lifestyle thing that they look at. So very different to the ten minutes or so with a doc who is basically there to dispense drugs in some form or another. In the case of this topic I’d look for one who specialises/has experience in male sexual performance issues.


----------



## Deejo

OhGeesh said:


> Deejo, not that we see eye to eye on much, but low T usually doesn't manifest itself in ED!
> 
> Guys are very much just fluid and piping it's all mechanics, so none of the current ED aids have helped?


I took adderall for ADHD for over 10 years. Side effects include prostate issues, decreased libido, and ED.

I hit the trifecta. The testosterone issue was a problem in parallel.


----------



## AFEH

Sounds like your systems been really hit and you may have to do a lot of remedy work to get it back to normal. If you really do have circulation problems caused by the drugs you took then it will be a case of stopping ingesting foods etc. that restrict your blood flow and taking in foods that get your blood itself to the right consistency.

I know quite a bit about caffeine because a few years back I was trying very hard to stop smoking. I had lots of triggers, a good meal, a pint all that sort of thing. But one of my triggers was coffee and tea so I decided to go onto water only for three days just to see what happened.

I was amazed. In the afternoon of the first day I got a massive headache. I’m lucky and never suffer from them (just give them to others). That night in bed my knees and ankles started twitching, kind of jumping about by themselves, very strange. The next day I typed the two symptoms into Google and up came “caffeine withdrawal symptoms”.

What actually happens is caffeine actually reduces the size of the blood vessels in the brain and other parts of the body. Caffeine has a half life of 3 hours or so as it reduces in the blood, the vessels start to expand again. And this is what gives the headaches. If a person is continuously drinking drinks with caffeine in them they don’t get the headaches etc. because the vessels stay constricted. Caffeine does come out of the blood but it is stored in body organs. It’s quite dangerous stuff.

But drinks with caffeine in them is only one way blood flow may be reduced, others of course are if our blood is thicker than it should be. It’s for these reasons I recommend a holistic approach via a naturopath.

There’s a lot of info around re caffeine and ED. From the testosterone perspective caffeine whacks the adrenal gland which in part I believe produces testosterone and is therefore made less effective.

All doctors will do, if you are lucky, is measure your hormone levels and give you a boost. It’s much preferable to work with someone to help you get your body back to what it should be and produce your own testosterone and get your blood circulation to what it should be. But it’s no “quick fix” and can take time and one heck of a lot of perseverance before you see any results.

The first test of a good naturopath is if they have a total intolerance of caffeine. Wont give up the caffeine? Goodbye and only come back when you have.


----------



## Deejo

It's what's for dinner ...

Testosterone Transformation


----------



## Deejo

So in a bizarre set of events ... I'm actually curious if anyone else on HRT has had difficulty getting testosterone cypionate?

I haven't been able to get it at all. Four pharmacies have told me that the manufacturerer has stopped making it. WTF?

Needless to say, had a physical little more than a week ago. My total Test was 314. Back to where I started. Fatigue has been through the roof. I'm guessing also a result of having been supplementing and then stopping cold turkey.

I'm mentally slower, more tired, and fatter ...

Exactly what I was going for and what turns the ladies heads ...


----------



## Enchantment

Deejo said:


> So in a bizarre set of events ... I'm actually curious if anyone else on HRT has had difficulty getting testosterone cypionate?
> 
> I haven't been able to get it at all. Four pharmacies have told me that the manufacturerer has stopped making it. WTF?
> 
> Needless to say, had a physical little more than a week ago. My total Test was 314. Back to where I started. Fatigue has been through the roof. I'm guessing also a result of having been supplementing and then stopping cold turkey.
> 
> I'm mentally slower, more tired, and fatter ...
> 
> Exactly what I was going for and what turns the ladies heads ...


H is on testosterone cypionate injections. Haven't had any problems getting it (S/Central US).

Is your doc going to switch your prescription?

The fatigue and fuzzy-headedness of hormone imbalance are awful. Hope you can get things balanced out and feel better.


----------



## slappy

Thank you for sharing your story. My husband is suffering from Ed and I am not sure what to do. He was tested, average so did not persistent it further. We had an excellent sex life up to 4 yrs ago. He used to be very affectionate but that also stopped. He never refuses my initiations and always manages to orgasmm but with alot of time and can't always maintain penetration. I am sure what the best way to deal with this is. I don't mind initiating but I know he feels terrible when he can't perform. I assure him that it is okay and we make the mostof it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

First off , how fit is he?, is he overweight, does he smoke? My libido was going down the tubes, until I lost 22lbs and hit the gym four times a week. ED is often about circulation in older guys, poor health & lifestyle over time plugs up the works and ED happens. My Libido is now back to where it was 20 years ago by simply watching what I eat and regular intense exercise, I'd suggest getting this book for Hubby and following it, "The Four Hour Body " by Tim Ferris.


----------



## ThinkTooMuch

*Re: Dealing with Low Testosterone - Depression and Hypogonadism*

The following was published by Sciencedaily.com
Here's the reference 
Elsevier (2012, April 2). Exploring the antidepressant effects of testosterone. ScienceDaily. Retrieved April 4, 2012, from http://www.sciencedaily.com* /releases/2012/04/120402093750.htm​Exploring the Antidepressant Effects of Testosterone

ScienceDaily (Apr. 2, 2012) — Testosterone, the primary male sex hormone, appears to have antidepressant properties, but the exact mechanisms underlying its effects have remained unclear. Nicole Carrier and Mohamed Kabbaj, scientists at Florida State University, are actively working to elucidate these mechanisms.

They've discovered that a specific pathway in the hippocampus, a brain region involved in memory formation and regulation of stress responses, plays a major role in mediating testosterone's effects, according to their new report in Biological Psychiatry.

Compared to men, women are twice as likely to suffer from an affective disorder like depression. Men with hypogonadism, a condition where the body produces no or low testosterone, also suffer increased levels of depression and anxiety. Testosterone replacement therapy has been shown to effectively improve mood.

Although it may seem that much is already known, it is of vital importance to fully characterize how and where these effects are occurring so that scientists can better target the development of future antidepressant therapies.

To advance this goal, the scientists performed multiple experiments in neutered adult male rats. The rats developed depressive-like behaviors that were reversed with testosterone replacement.

They also "identified a molecular pathway called MAPK/ERK2 (mitogen activated protein kinase/ extracellular regulated kinase 2) in the hippocampus that plays a major role in mediating the protective effects of testosterone," said Kabbaj.

This suggests that the proper functioning of ERK2 is necessary before the antidepressant effects of testosterone can occur. It also suggests that this pathway may be a promising target for antidepressant therapies.

Kabbaj added, "Interestingly, the beneficial effects of testosterone were not associated with changes in neurogenesis (generation of new neurons) in the hippocampus as it is the case with other classical antidepressants like imipramine (Tofranil) and fluoxetine (Prozac)."

In results published elsewhere by the same group, testosterone has shown beneficial effects only in male rats, not in female rats.


----------



## At wits end

Deejo said:


> This is where I was fortunate, and I second stritles suggestion.
> I was on the normal side as well, ranging from 300 - 400 ng/dl
> 
> My fatigue, and joint pain were the clinchers for me.
> 
> And as I stressed in my initial post, the issue I found was that my MD's wanted to treat all of the symptoms separately. Never occurred to anyone that many of them may be related to one thing.
> 
> Any of my existing issues could have been chalked up to problems resulting from other conditions, or worse, side effects of medication I was already taking.
> 
> It was very frustrating.


I can relate to this as well,

Except my numbers were a lot lower, I was at 156 on my first test and at 154 on my second. I have been on HRT for about 3 months now and the difference in the way I felt before and the way I feel now is amazing! 
I was too the point of extreme anxiety and depression and the doctors were giving me the usual things for the individual problems ,but it was just making things worse. I am so glad that I found postings like this and the information online to be able to go to them and say "Hey, lets have a look at my testosterone levels" and sure enough thats what it was. 

It is really unfortunate that some doctors these days don't really seem to take this too serious and that there are a lot of guys out there that are being given things that are actually making things worse rather than better.

Funny about the availability of the test, I guess thats one of the benefits of living in Asia, I am being treated with Nebido which is the slow ester type( one shot every 3 10 to 12 weeks, 4 ml injection) very stable and no peaks and valleys as far as I can tell. The only thing I do is also take the oral Testocaps on top of the injection because it seems to keep my levels a bit higher and feels better all around. Last blood work I was at 425. I feel like I would be better around 600 or so but hold out hope that it will go up a bit. Does tend to shrinks the jewels a bit, but it is too be expected. Libido is back and at 49 it feels like I am in my mid 20's. Hard to manage the urges sometimes and keep a straight face when good looking girls are around!

Deejo, sorry to hear that things are a bit troublesome for you. Its a long road and you can hold out hope that things will get better later on down the road.

Have posted attached file for timeline on things to expect and when.


----------



## Minncouple

I have been in the HRT game for almost 15 years. Never had an issue. Most if not all compunding pharmacies will carry it. I have found that Costco, Walgreens, Osco carry it or can order it. 

Who is writing the script? a HRT clinic or normal doc? HRT clinics are typically working in conjuction with a compounder already and you buy through them (around $100 - 150 per 10cc vial).

I applaud your efforst to raise test naturally, but it wont happen. At a level of 300, you will most likely feel like crap. A 1cc shot every 7-10 days shoudl raise it to almost 800-900. 

Hope this helps

BTW, there are also other esters of test, Enanthate and Proprinate. The Enanthate is a slightly longer acting, while the Prop is slightly less. But, they are all just test. No real difference.


----------



## clairey83

My story is a long and frustrating one. My other half has never had a high sex drive, since we've been together, even in the very beginning 3 times a week would have been a lot. Once or twice would be more likely. I would literally have it every day, maybe even more than once. But twice a week I can survive without being grumpy  so anyway, last May I got nothing at all for a whole month. I moaned about it. He blamed medication he's on - which he's been on during our whole relationship so I disagreed with that. Anyway, I got half hearted effort of maybe once or twice a fortnight for a few months. The. I'd go without completely, moan again then the same again. This went on until Feb this year. When I lost the plot and got really mad. I'd suggested low testosterone 3 times previously and he ignored it. Despite the fact he sees his doctor twice a month. So anyway, we had a big fall out. He said he thought I was joking about the testosterone. As if - this is no laughing matter to me. I literally struggle to cope without sex. I get seriously frustrated and angry. 
So he goes to the doc, gets his test done. The results will be back in 2-3 days but he still just waits for his usual appointment in 2 weeks. At that appointment the doc confirms low t and says he needs more tests. Same again, results available in a few days but he waits the 2 weeks. At this point the doc refers him to the hospital to see the endocrinology dept. And there's a 4 week wait on the appointment! 3 days before the appointment it gets put back another 2 weeks. 
Last Saturday we fell out as he thought I was being off with him. I was. It had been 6 weeks since we last had sex. I was sad, angry, frustrated, irritable and to be honest starting to get resentful. This scares me as in the past there is a very short timescale from me getting bored to annoyed to dumping him! And my current partner has been a very close friend for 12 years prior to writing together. So I cannot get resentful and just leave him. It's not an option. 
So this whole situation stresses me out. I feel like I make him aware how hurt I feel and that he either doesn't listen or doesn't care. Anyway we kinda sorted it out, I think he understands. And his appointment was 2 days ago. The bloody doc took ten more blood tests and he has to wait another 4 weeks to see what the next step is. 
And I'm back to frustration again coz it's now gonna be at least another 2 months before I get any. 
Sooo the whole point of this is, how long are we looking at before the doc will finally confirm what's happening. And then how long will testosterone therapy take to kick in. And pleeeeeease tell me they'll make his testosterone high to compensate. I don't know how much longer I can cope with this all. 
Since he's had the symptoms of low t for years and years every day for him is like normal. It's killing me and that makes me feel so selfish


----------



## Deejo

I am always struck by how often similar a HD woman's posts sound to that of a man with a LD partner.

It is difficult if not impossible to convey the level of anxiety, insecurity, or pure frustration that one feels intensely ... and your partner is utterly unaware of, or worse, simply ignores altogether.

From the nature of your post, I'm presuming you aren't in the states. I never waited more than 5 days to get my results back from testing and they certainly didn't need to draw multiple vials of blood. I'm presuming his doc ordered another work-up to look for things other than or in addition to Low T.

And I have always encouraged people that if your doctor is unresponsive, then find another doctor.

What were his levels? Do you know? To my knowledge the 'number' that is often referred to here is total T, not 'free' T, and is a number scaling from a low of 200 up to roughly 1100 ng/dl

If and when your partner starts therapy, depending upon the delivery system (injections, vs. gel vs. pellets) a rough estimate is between 4 and 6 weeks before he starts feeling substantial effects.

And in my case, my urologist referred me to a nearby compounding pharmacy. The folks there are great. Very, very helpful and knowledgable.

I am back on 200 mg/ml every 7 to 10 days. Looking forward to being re-tested in early July.


----------



## clairey83

The figures are different here. Above 12 is normal. 8 is considered low and his is 5! To be fair I think they're making sure its not a pituitary problem rather than medication he's been on for a while. But I'm so frustrated coz regardless of the cause he still needs testosterone replacement therapy so I wish they'd just kick start it. I'm glad I found this place and have found folk who know what it feels like. I'm walking around with constant anger and it's awful! And yep, I'm not in the states. I'm in the uk. I don't think it's the wait for the results that's the problem, it's the wait for the consultants time. I wish I'd gone to the appointment too - coz I can't cope with the thought that it's at least another 2 months before there's any chance that anything might even start to change!


----------



## At wits end

Clairey 83

You mentioned he has been on medication? what type and what for?
It has been mentioned by Deejo as well that alot of times doctors treat only some of the symtoms that men may complain about and that the meds actually make the real underlying problem worse. He may be on meds that are doing more harm than good.
You are lucky that you are in the UK because there, you have the same HRT meds that I am on which is NEBIDO, it is a slow ester and only requires one shot every 3 months or so. This is not available in the US yet as far as I know and there it is still required to do weekly shots as Deejo mentioned. I noticed a big difference in a lot of areas almost within the first couple of weeks, and my levels were quite low at the start. seems like he may be around the same as me, quite a ways under the low level. I have gotten my drive back as well as tons of energy now, where before I was quite tired all the time. It does make a big difference. I have a LD wife so now it is quite frustrating for me , not to mention the fact that we are living in different areas and away from each other. Its funny but I never realized that my drive was not that high because of my wife being LD,so the sex was just one of those things we did every once in a while. now its a bit harder for me to deal because my drive is quite a bit higher than hers. which after a few discussions and some very open talking have come to realize is almost non existent! We have actually discussed her going and getting checked out as well!
Anyway, point I am trying to make is, there will more than likely be a big difference once hubby starts on HRT or gets meds to deal with any other real problem they might find. He may have no clue as too what is happening to him because our hormones can control so much of how we feel and think as well. Be patient


----------



## clairey83

Thanks so much for your reply. I think that is why it is so frustrating (in part) because every day is normal to him. Nothing is different. He is always sleepy too. He's not got a job at the minute, although he often has work of some kind which helps. His day involves a struggle to get out of bed, his day at work which I imagine also to be minimal effort, then he comes home eats dinner and falls asleep on the couch til bedtime. Then we go to be and he wants to cuddle in to get to sleep - which takes him about 30 seconds but takes me forever. I get so annoyed because I seem to get nothing back. And it's even more frustrating because I know it's not him, it's the whole situation! I just wish they'd hurry up.
At least now I can be hopeful that when he does start hrt that it shouldn't take long to work  
As for his medication, I don't really want to say what it is other than there is no alternative to it and it's known to be a cause of low t. However, with him I think it's the case that it's always been low and the medication has made it worse. I suppose I should be grateful they're putting such effort in to get to the root of the problem! I'll try to be more patient


----------



## Deejo

Got a call from my urologist while on vacation. Last T check was a few days after my 47th birthday, first week of August.

T level was 1025.

Oddly enough, can't say I felt much different then when it was 400. No crazy sex drive. No real difference in ED issues. No acne. No noticeable side effects at all that I'm aware of. Although, in the scheme of things I don't know at what 'level' the side effects of being on the high side would manifest. Perhaps in excess of 1200?

Feel pretty good overall. Most noticeable to me has been my lack of aches following workouts, and seem to have a relatively easy time maintaining my fitness level.

Not currently in a relationship, so can't provide any feedback regarding sexuality ... aside from the fact that I have noticed no substantial increase in my drive at all.


----------



## Kari

Deejo said:


> Got a call from my urologist while on vacation. [..]
> 
> T level was 1025.
> 
> Oddly enough, can't say I felt much different then when it was 400. No crazy sex drive. No real difference in ED issues. No acne. .


I'm suspecting that you haven't increased your free T as much as it sounds if you are not getting more drive, body hair, or oily skin/acne.

What was your free T level? Maybe some of your total T is the bound type and isn't helping your libido. What is your cortisol and estradiol? It is very important to check those every time too because if they are high it will affect your libido. Did you ever get your prolactin and LH checked (e.g. to check for a pituitary problem)? 

If you haven't increased your T dose and yet your level rose this high, it might be a lab error and worth checking again.


----------



## Deejo

I suspect an error as well. Will likely get retested in 12 weeks rather than 24.

I may also have to change physicians for monitoring the T piece. Dude just isn't that on the ball.

I already had BPH along with urinating and ED issues prior to starting HRT.

Although, I must say that I have been able to maintain my lean mass, very well, but have also changed up my training routine.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> I suspect an error as well. Will likely get retested in 12 weeks rather than 24.
> 
> I may also have to change physicians for monitoring the T piece. Dude just isn't that on the ball.
> 
> I already had BPH along with urinating and ED issues prior to starting HRT.
> 
> Although, I must say that I have been able to maintain my lean mass, very well, but have also changed up my training routine.


Good luck...keep us posted.


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Good luck...keep us posted.


My junk may never work the same again, but with a little luck and some baby oil and Speedos I'll be able to post some awesome body shots soon ...

I can say unequivocally that the HRT therapy had zero impact on the ED piece of the equation. 

I still suspect part of this is in my head. However, at this stage of the game, and stated with absolutely no bravado or braggadocio, I have had a number of intimate partners since becoming single, and maintaining an erection has been a consistent issue, with varying degrees of impact.


----------



## Runs like Dog

1024 is outside the parameters of normal for every age.


----------



## cloudwithleggs

Deejo said:


> My junk may never work the same again, but with a little luck and some baby oil and Speedos I'll be able to post some awesome body shots soon ...
> 
> I can say unequivocally that the HRT therapy had zero impact on the ED piece of the equation.
> 
> I still suspect part of this is in my head. However, at this stage of the game, and stated with absolutely no bravado or braggadocio, I have had a number of intimate partners since becoming single, and maintaining an erection has been a consistent issue, with varying degrees of impact.


sideways glance, speedos and baby oil   i'm subbed 

Are you using Viagra? i think it is only fair to which ever partner to use, less they don't mind other ways.

You do need your prolactin levels checked.

My first ever encounter with my estranged ED was the first time we had sex, i had never been with a man with this issue before, he let me believe it was because of me, so it was my fault.

Of course i know now it is not and it most likely because he is so morbidly obese.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Deejo said:


> Concern at this point is that I have familial high cholesterol. Despite my eating pretty well, by looking at my numbers you would presume I subsisted off of pork rinds and sticks of butter.


The primary dietary driver for cholesterol is carbs not fat.


----------



## Deejo

Have a buddy that believes carbs in the form of grains (rice aside) are the devil.

I'm always willing to learn old tricks. The doc made no mention of my cholesterol.


----------



## Lon

warning: graphic moob shot:

(seriously I find it really hard to gauge features in my reflection or in pics, it usually not until years later that I look at a pic and say is that really what I looked like, so in this pic are my moobs showing through? My darn nips poke through several layers all the time and I think I should get more shirts with graphics on the chest to obscure it)


----------



## Deejo

Have this same issue with T's and golf shirts. Doesn't phase me. Is this an old shot or new? Thought you were rockin' the goatee?


----------



## Lon

That was yesterday... The goatee comes and goes but I prefer clean shaved in summer. Golf shirts used to be flattering not so long ago. Still not sure how much of my moobs are just fat but from what I can tell from feeling the tissue underneath there is breast tissue. I think my best way to find out is to lean out and put on some more muscle, but at lunch time today I was realizing how hard it is especially when the self esteem is kinda low, like my psyche is convincing me I have to look the part too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

Are you working out? May resurrect my own fitness thread as well.

I've been nearly immobile for 2 days due to issues with my lower back. Slept on a sleep sofa for the previous week while on vacation with the kids and I'm guessing that is the culprit.

As for the nip issue, I do believe they sell things to compress and cover this issue ... kind of like pasties.

I think my testosterone just dropped at the thought of mentioning or wearing pasties ...


----------



## Lon

Yeah I'm not wearing pasties. As for working out, I've "sorta" been will have one good workout then a day to recover then I try again focussing on slightly different part of muscles but usually don't have the will or desire to. Once in awhile I have a workout and the endorphines get flowing and it feels great after, and after those kind I tend to be motivated for the next few workouts, but then I fall off the wagon. I've pushed it pretty hard a few times this last month but not getting any kind of nice feelings, I feel pretty useless afterwards. My typical workouts include shoulder presses, pushups, pulldowns, curls, squats, rows, sometimes forearm exercises. Usually the big pushes like squats make me queezy, those are the really demotivating ones. I try to make enough variety between workouts so I keep it interesting as well as change the motion a bit. But lately I've been quite lazy on these, not doing the full workout, one or two exercises then just give up.

Once in awhile I will do more cardio type sports, like tonight I played squash for an hour and a half.


----------



## Deejo

We have some really knowledgeable exercise folks on the boards. 

I can offer my personal suggestion. One that has consistently worked for me, when I'm trying to re-establish myself in a workout after a hiatus.

I really like circuit training. Whole body, 3X a week, never more than 30 minutes. Combines aspects of cardio, because you don't rest much, along with resistance exercise.

Definitely helps me build stamina and toning. If I try to jump right in to heavy strength movements and split routines after having not worked out for some time, I get extremely light headed and nauseous when working out. 

Circuit training helps me get my metabolism going, and builds up my tolerance if I want to change the routine around.


----------



## AFEH

Deejo said:


> Are you working out? May resurrect my own fitness thread as well.
> 
> I've been nearly immobile for 2 days due to issues with my lower back. Slept on a sleep sofa for the previous week while on vacation with the kids and I'm guessing that is the culprit.
> 
> As for the nip issue, I do believe they sell things to compress and cover this issue ... kind of like pasties.
> 
> I think my testosterone just dropped at the thought of mentioning or wearing pasties ...


I had that one time. The pain was such that at times I couldn’t move an inch. What worked for me was to suspend from a bar under my arms and then bring my legs slowly up at the front. Just a few minutes and the pain went never to return.

I think suspension separates the discs a fraction and lifting the legs stretches the back a little more such that any trapped nerve finds its own way out. I mentioned what I did to a sports masseur, he told me it was the right thing to do but the same thing is accomplished by laying flat on a table with legs dangling over the end from waste down and then move them up and down.


----------



## sunshinegal

Hi Deejo & Folks, 

I'm writing as my husband was recently diagnosed with Low-T. Since you're relatively experienced with treatment plans, i was curious to know :

1. Do you know / have you known anyone who has successfully permanently fixed the low-t problem ? Or is it likely a long-term medication issue ?

2. How long can pellets/ gels / injections be sustained ? Forever ?

3. If trying to have children, should we watch out for genetic conditions due to low-t conditions ?

4. How did low-t affect your relationship with your partners ? Were they understanding ? How do you deal with the worry of staying on top of this issue ?

Your responses to one or all of the above will be greatly appreciated. I'm extremely worried, given how new I am to learning abt low-t (just been 3-4 months). Hope you can help ..


----------



## Deejo

For myself, my marriage had already tanked by the time I was diagnosed. For reference, I was very sexually attracted to my ex-wife.

To me, low-T falls under the umbrella of, 'it's not really a problem unless it's a problem.'

HRT is intended to help cope in the event that those problems affect the quality of your life.

It is a long term medication issue. Lots of the men participating in this thread have been on therapy or supplementing for years. I have been on injections for nearly 2 years. I have never 'cycled'.

How old is your husband? Based upon your post, and referencing children, I'm presuming he's relatively young.

I recommend injections. I started with pellets and they botched the dose ... which meant I got no benefit for 4 months. That helped me make my decision for shots, which can be adjusted quite quickly if needed.

I'm revisiting some of my previous posts, but low T in and of itself had little to no issue on my relationships. However ... I was having performance issues that I hoped hormone therapy would help with. 
It did not.

In the instances that I shared what was going on, women would always insist, 'it doesn't matter' ... but despite their intended good will ... it did matter. They took it personally.

My input? The more YOU worry about it, you can just about assure it will have an impact on him.


----------



## sunshinegal

Deejo - THANK YOU !!

Husband is 33 & I'm 30. You're right about the part 'It's not an issue unless it becomes an issue'. 

In our case, my husband's sex drive was non-existent. For cultural/personal (Asian/Indian) reasons he wanted to wait to have sex until he got married. Never even had a relationship (which I found odd) or crushes in his 20s.

Lacking a relationship reference point, in a way he really doesnt seem to know what a 'normal sex drive' is. I noticed that he doesn't behave like other guys his age. No sexual chemistry. No inclination for making out, No interest in sports, outdoors or general guy things. Lack of ambition, drive for career.

He's not gay but strangely, one of his worries was sex was going to be painful for him and that was a mental block for him for sometime. Bottom line, in the few months we've been married we've never gotten around to doing it. 

I mean, I thought a lot of things were off when I got to know him. (We had an arranged marriage). But I had no clue about the problem.

I can't tell which part is caused by the hormonal issue and which part is just his personality. But I'd sure like to know what improvements I can expect because continuing like this is unnatural.


----------



## Arya1234

Hello friends,i am 24 year old(Unmarried),
i have some problems such as
1-Erectile Dysfunction 
2-low energy
3-always feeling sleepy
4-stress

i dnt know what is happening with me since last three weeks.
what should i do for this anyone please help me...............


----------



## Caribbean Man

Maybe you need to check your doctor first.
Stress [ # 4], could either be the cause of all the others or a symptom just like them.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Thought I would share my husband's NEW Testosterone LAB results... I was pretty pleased. 

Just to mention...when I landed on TAM 3 yrs ago.... I had a little too much worry on my mind over his TEST... an Endocrinologist told me his levels were normal for a 60 yr old man (he was just 45)...& said he may need Treatment in the future.... 

He WAS a little stressed at work during that time frame...plus I was on a sex high draining him daily...even hours before those tests. I have to wonder now....if this made his results lower....possible ?? 

His results varied over 9 tests...lowest being 323 - highest being 503, one of the FREE Test results was below the Lab recommendations ~ that freaked me out! 

So when he went for a Physical recently.... I asked our PCP to check him again.... it was only 1 test...but still.... 

(I always get the results sent directly to us...I like to see those #'s in my hand).....

*New Results*:



> TOTAL Test = *487* ....(normal 241- 827)
> 
> FREE Test = *583* .... (Normal 250-1100)
> 
> Testosterone, FREE = *59.5* ....(Normal 35.0 -155.0 G)


This time around... he wouldn't let us "do it" the night before or that morning....Just in case...thinking that could lower his #'s & I'd be all worried again... 

I think he sounds pretty normal for his age - right now... He is 49.


----------



## oldgeezer

At 49 my T level was in the high 300's. The doctor said "normal", but I had the sexual ability of ... a eunuch. 

After much study, I refused to even consider HRT's, unless I could find no way to improve things myself. 

So, I did the following: Lost more weight, began lifting weights. I started taking D-Aspartic Acid, and one of anti-estrogen natural supplements. D-Aspartic Acid has been proven to signficantly raise testosterone production. Exactly why and how, I don't quite understand. 

I have not yet tested again, and I'm not going to for a few more months. However, I went from being able to have an erection once in a while to regularly. I know it wasn't blood flow or anything else, because I was routinely erect during sleep. 

I AM better in just 4 weeks. We engage in intercourse generally daily, usually at least 10-15 minutes, often twice a day. And I "make it" about 2 to 3 times a week. 

More important than total T is "free" T, and REDUCING ESTROGEN. 

Estrogen kills your libido, gives you man-boobs, and is produced by fat cells. If you take T supplements, often after a while, what will happen is your body will convert it to estrogen. And the results will be WORSE than before you started. 

Use an Aromatase Inhibitor (there are many natural ones and some commercial ones), it will help you lose weight, keep from developing high blood sugar, and prevent the excess conversion from T to estrogens. 

Doing hard, short, harsh exercise bursts, and by preventing estrogen conversion (also related to cortisol production, which kills libido and muscle growth), you will naturally gain considerable benefit from what testosterone you have. 

I do not know what the limits of this type of effort are. I know it has some observable improvements. 

Oh, and NOT HAVING MENTAL STRESS will help you immensely. If I'm stressed... I'm still dead in the water.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

oldgeezer said:


> At 49 my T level was in the high 300's. The doctor said "normal", but I had the sexual ability of ... a eunuch.


 See, everyone is different here....when his Test results were in the 300's (most of them-out of 9 tests over 6 months), he was still going pretty good -though a little split Viagra did help on some slow rising nights. Love that little blue pill. 



> So, I did the following: Lost more weight, began lifting weights. I started taking D-Aspartic Acid, and one of anti-estrogen natural supplements. D-Aspartic Acid has been proven to signficantly raise testosterone production. Exactly why and how, I don't quite understand.


 I just looked that up The Effects Of Aspartic Acid On Testosterone ...it said


> showed that males supplemented with 3.12 g of D-aspartic acid for 12 days experienced an increase in their free testosterone by approximately 40 percent.


.....I guess that explains the twice a day! 

If my husband lost any more weight he would blow away, he only weighs 150...I don't think in his entire existence he has weighed more than 165. 



> Doing hard, short, harsh exercise bursts, and by preventing estrogen conversion (also related to cortisol production, which kills libido and muscle growth), you will naturally gain considerable benefit from what testosterone you have.


Some more tips... How to Increase Testosterone Levels Naturally


----------



## Deejo

I have been off T therapy for about 12 weeks. Between traveling, insurance changing, and not wanting to pay for it.

Had a read done about 2 weeks ago before I went on the road. Got my numbers today. 

Total was 330 ng/dl, wondering if my insurer is going to see that as low enough to warrant therapy for a 49 year old.

Have not had the crazy fatigue and joint pain that I had previously when my numbers dipped into the 200's.

Although I do have low grade fatigue, and have tremendous difficulty focusing.

Haven't really been working out steadily either. 

Much improvement to be made.


----------



## TheCuriousWife

My husband is at 430ng/dl in his early twenties.

Doctor sent him home and said he was "normal" and perfectly fine....

Even though he has numerous symptoms. :banghead:

I've read your entire thread and wondered how you were doing. Hope the insurance will agree to pay for you.


----------



## Deejo

Got word today that my exception was approved.

600 ng/dl here I come ...

Funny, I've been seeing commercial for Cenegenics all over the place lately.


----------



## MLK22

So what do you do about this if it's not something your insurance will cover? Are there (over the counter) supplements that actually work? I've read online that there are several, but I'm not sure of the validity of the claims...


----------



## raven2000

MLK22 said:


> So what do you do about this if it's not something your insurance will cover? Are there (over the counter) supplements that actually work? I've read online that there are several, but I'm not sure of the validity of the claims...


No. Stay away from them. Waste of money.

Look for a hormone replacement clinic in your area. You pay $xxx per month or a flat fee plus cost of testosterone and other drugs. I've been doing it for about a year and a half now and it's awesome. My clinic is very liberal with dosages, but still tests me regularly. All looks good and I feel like I'm 20 again... other than the baldness and ear hair (both present prior to TRT).


----------

