# Is this normal?



## jpc

Hello all, 

I'm new here, and I just really need an objective opinion (or few) about my situation. I will try to make this as honest as possible. I would really appreciate any insight as to what is going on from an outsider's perspective.

My husband and I have only been married about a year and a half. In that time, we've been to counseling twice.

I really believe my husband loves me and he is extremely focused on me. However, he is also very controlling (I have no say in our finances, "You can have an opinion but I will make the final decision", I can't really do anything outside of the relationship (softball league, etc.) without upsetting him, and he constantly bosses me around about the smallest things, (how to fold socks, what temperature I should cook the eggs at, whether I can wear shoes in the house, etc.) Some of this stuff improved with the most recent counseling sessions, to be fair. 

One of the biggest reasons we were in counseling is because of what happens when we get in a fight: It almost always starts over something insignificant, (no one is cheating, or has a drinking problem, etc), but it quickly escalates into something ugly. My husband always belittles my feelings and tells me that my point of view is just flat out wrong. He *never* apologizes for anything, (he says he sees this as admitting defeat), and he *never* takes responsibility for his own actions. (Which are brutal at times.) I know this doesn't seem like such a big deal and I should just live with it, but I just can't. When he does this, it drives me to tears. I will sit there crying saying "You really hurt my feelings" and he will just angrily tell me I'm "off the deep end." Or "Maybe you're just on your period." Then, in our very worst fights, I get so frustrated and angry that I threaten to leave. That just infuriates him more.

So a few weeks ago, the above argument pattern happened again. I told him that if he continued to trivialize my feelings, we'd have to separate. The difference is that this time, something in me changed, and I really meant it. He got furious and walked out. 

When he came home the next day, he told me he had "made his decision" and wanted a divorce, and that I had three days to get out of the house. He said he would write me a check to pay for a hotel for a month or two, but that I had to leave the dog (who I adopted before we were married) and he would "arrange for some visitation" with her if I really wanted. It was upsetting, but I really just had enough of the way he marginalizes me in the relationship, and I didn't know my rights as a spouse (i.e., he didn't have the legal right to throw me out), so I agreed. 

Three days goes by and I frantically try to find a place to live and pack all my things together. He doesn't make any attempt to contact me. I don't make any attempt to contact him either because I've really had it. We're breaking up, it's mutual, that's fine. 

Then, on the third day, instead of dropping off a check, he shows up unannounced and is crying uncontrollably. He says "How can you be so cold? Why didn't you try to contact me? Why didn't you suggest we go back to counseling? Etc." When I remind him that he told me in no uncertain terms that he also wanted a divorce and told me I had to vacate the house, he tells me he did it because he wanted me to "chase him" and he was just trying to make me realize just what I was throwing away. Then he even started saying that he did it because he has all these issues from childhood about never feeling loved or wanted, etc. but he never actually wanted me to leave. I tried to talk with him about this but I wasn't going to stay anymore or go back to counseling. I am not trying to play a game. I. am. just. finally. done. 

When I refused to stay in the house and moved my stuff out is when things got really crazy....

First he started saying things like "You're destroying me" and "I have nothing else to live for". I wrote him an email back titled "Worried", and encouraged him to reach out to someone to talk to. Then he started sending suicide threats to my "Worried" thread. He said it was "Too late" and that he was going to crash his car into a pole. Or maybe into another car and take someone else out with him. He said if that didn't work, he'd pay a junkie to "finish him off". It really freaked me out, so I called the police. Well, the police apparently found him at home getting ready for bed. He told the police that he sent those threats "just to get at me."

That was a couple weeks ago now. In the meantime, I've been living out of boxes in a seedy motel. He has been writing me emails about how sorry he is, and how he will "look deep within himself" to try to stop belittling me. "This time counseling will work." He has also showed up at my workplace unannounced begging to talk. During this brief conversation, he told me his suicide attempt was real, and showed me a slice mark across his wrist. He said "I'm obsessed with you. You occupy 90% or my thoughts...this (his wrist) is how much I love you." At the exact same time, I find out (from my vet) that he requested my dogs paperwork and an application to re-new her pet license. (The pet license department has since told me if he attempts to re-license her to himself without my permission that it's fraud.) 

The one other time I broke up him, over the same issue, (we were living together but not married), he took the house key off my keyring while I was upstairs so that I couldn't gain access to my things if I left. Then, as I tried to leave, he grabbed my ponytail to stop me from moving toward the door, and said the same "You're destroying me" type of thing. It completely freaked me out. I had to get a police escort the following day to retrieve my things. A couple friends helped me, and he called them terrible names (the c-word, etc.) and threw some of my stuff at us from the front door.

He's been sending me emails about "finding compassion" for him in my heart, and he says that this is all just typical marital bumps in the road. But I just can't seem to get behind that. I feel afraid for my safety to be perfectly honest. I feel afraid he's going to steal my dog because he knows how much I love her. I know for sure that his pattern of belittling me will continue, we've been to counseling twice already, and I just can't bring myself to live with it.

Am I just over-reacting? Is this really what happens sometimes in a "normal" marriage? Should I be trying harder to make things work?


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## Atholk

No this is not normal. It's quite bad actually.

The "don't marry him" red flag was how he acted when you were breaking up as boyfriend and girlfriend. What you've seen so far is what you'll get for the forseeable future.

My advice is to contact a lawyer immediately. You've been wrongfully evicted from your house and he is unstable (suicide threats, showing up at your work) and appears potentially dangerous to you. 

Obviously you'll never have children with him. So what's the point in staying with him.

And he's the one making the divorce demand, so he's the one that's meant to move out of the house, not you.


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## Runs like Dog

Ok first off you're both incredibly stubborn to the point of self destruction. It's not about he's 100% wrong and you're 100% right. 

You resort to physical violence. Big no no. It's not dramatic, it's not romantic it's not anything but violent. Where does it end, when he punches you in the face and you stab him? 

He's immature and a drama queen. Suicide? Really? Come on. 

Screaming about the dog? Denying someone a place to live? 

The two of you have zero mature and healthy ways to argue with one another. Zero. And what's your deal? Why do you put up with it? What need of yours does it feed?


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## Kauaiguy

jpc said:


> Hello all,
> 
> My husband and I have only been married about a year and a half. In that time, we've been to counseling twice. *Not good for being married for only a short period of time!*
> 
> However, he is also very controlling (I have no say in our finances, "You can have an opinion but I will make the final decision", I can't really do anything outside of the relationship (softball league, etc.) without upsetting him, and he constantly bosses me around about the smallest things, (how to fold socks, what temperature I should cook the eggs at, whether I can wear shoes in the house, etc.) *Marriage should not be a one-sided affair. He wants a live in maid, not a wife!*
> 
> My husband always belittles my feelings and tells me that my point of view is just flat out wrong. He *never* apologizes for anything, (he says he sees this as admitting defeat), and he *never* takes responsibility for his own actions. (Which are brutal at times.)*Marriage is about RESPECT! I see an immature person here who doesn't respect anything but himself!*
> 
> I know this doesn't seem like such a big deal *OH REALLY!*
> 
> Then he even started saying that he did it because he has all these issues from childhood about never feeling loved or wanted, etc. *Sorry but I had the same issues with a step dad and I vowed that I would NEVER treat anyone in my family like that. Too bad he didn't learn from that experience and made the proper corrections! Instead he became abusive himself!*
> 
> Well, the police apparently found him at home getting ready for bed. He told the police that he sent those threats "just to get at me." *He is manipulating your emotions and will continue to do so as long as you let him.*
> 
> During this brief conversation, he told me his suicide attempt was real, and showed me a slice mark across his wrist. *More dramatic attempts to get you to feel sorry for him?*
> 
> He's been sending me emails about "finding compassion" for him in my heart, and he says that this is all just typical marital bumps in the road. *NO IT ISN'T*
> I feel afraid he's going to steal my dog because he knows how much I love her.* Honey, this is the least of your problems!
> *
> Am I just over-reacting? Is this really what happens sometimes in a "normal" marriage? Should I be trying harder to make things work?


You are living in an abusive relationship and it's NOT going to get better until he grows up and realizes his behavior. He needs to understand that just because he had a tough childhood, he CANNOT take it out on anyone else. He needs a major attitude change.

I would leave if I were you, however if you really want to see if it can work out, you best solution is to leave him for about six months. NO CONTACT, NO NOTHING! Tell him that you would consider getting back if you see that he's made some major changes.

After that, you can start dating again and watch carefully on how he treats you. I think you'll be able to tell if he's really changed or just being manipulative.

I guarantee you that if you stay in this relationship the way it's been going that it will NOT change. Whatever you do, don't have children until you know that you're in a comfortable relationship. Because it gets worse!


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## sisters359

Runs like Dog said:


> Ok first off you're both incredibly stubborn to the point of self destruction. It's not about he's 100% wrong and you're 100% right.
> 
> You resort to physical violence. Big no no. It's not dramatic, it's not romantic it's not anything but violent. Where does it end, when he punches you in the face and you stab him?
> 
> He's immature and a drama queen. Suicide? Really? Come on.
> 
> Screaming about the dog? Denying someone a place to live?
> 
> The two of you have zero mature and healthy ways to argue with one another. Zero. And what's your deal? Why do you put up with it? What need of yours does it feed?


I don't see where she resorted to violence or has done anything to deserve this type of criticism. She's clearly married to someone abusive and her attempts to leave have been met with a barrage of suicide threats, violence, etc. 

He's clearly using the dog to try to control you. Get a lawyer, get back in the house with the dog and get a restraining order against him. Change the locks. Then rent or sell the house (per the separation agreement), split whatever you have to financially with him, and have no further contact other than through your lawyer until you leave. Then go--and don't leave any forwarding address or anyway for him to find you. Make sure your employer knows there is an RO against him and protect yourself. 

If you don't feel safe, leave the dog for now and get advice from a women's shelter/hotline. Don't worry about whether you are "over-reacting." He's proven himself unstable and you have ever right to take care of yourself, whatever that is (as long as it is legal). Let us know what you do and how you are doing. 

Remember--safety, lawyer. Take the rest as it comes. It will take time; hang in.


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## jpc

Hello all,

Thanks for all the helpful advice. I've been very this week obtaining a lawyer, filing papers, etc. H has continued to email me, call my
family members, have his family members call my family members, send flowers to my workplace, etc. His emails have evolved from "I realize I've behaved horribly and will do anything to change" to "I have no idea where this is coming from. How can you do this to me?" 

Originally when I mentioned the suicide threats to my attorney his advice was "Run away" and that I should consider a restraining order. I opted not to get one since I felt confident that he didn't know where I was staying (a motel that I've gone to great lengths to conceal the location of.) Then he was served papers yesterday. Within 20 minutes of being served, my motel room phone rings for the first time ever. I let it go to voicemail just to be safe. But sure enough, I don't know how, it was him. He knew all along exactly where I was. Then his family members started calling my room. Obviously I never picked up. But the whole thing just completely unnerves me. My attorney is serving him a "cease and desist" letter today as a result of this contact. If that doesn't work, a restraining order.

Any advice or thoughts about how this situation looks to an outsider would be much appreciated. It's just so hard when you're right in the middle of it...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DelinquentGurl

You need to file a restraining order. Your husband is out of control and there is no telling what he will do.

Your husband is controlling, and has anger issues and needs serious counseling for himself. I say this because he sounds a lot like me, and how I used to be. I was verbally and sometimes physically abusive to my H, and he had finally had enough and left. I did all the things your H has done (minus the suicide threats, having family members call) and tried to make him feel guilty for leaving.
It took awhile, but I finally gave up and took a long look at myself and my life and realized I needed to change.
That was 5 months ago. I am proud to say that I have changed my life and my ways so I do know it is possible if you really want to. With meds, and therapy I am a completely different person and I am ashamed at the way I behaved.

Now having said that, it is possible for your H to change, but he has to want to change. He is acting out of desperation, trying to do anything he can to get you to come back. You can't go back because nothing will change. And even if he swears he will make him prove it. I'm not talking weeks, I'm talking months of consistent change. However, if you decide to end this marriage (and rightfully so) I do think a restraining order is necessary because he sounds very emotionally unstable and dangerous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cdbaker

My question is this. Are you really, truly, no-matter-what-happens, completely done?

The way I see it, even when you ultimately left him, he still have a prayer of a chance to turn things around but he is destroying that completely with his complete and utter inability to control himself. Most people in that situation absolutely have the feelings that he has unleashed on you. I have felt incredible rage towards my wife after she left our family, I have felt at times like doing a lot of those things, your emotional roller coaster travels through every feeling in the book and you think crazy thoughts, everyone does, but you have to be mature and control yourself always, especially if he really wants a chance at saving the marriage. Right now he is still in the "PANIC!" mode, followed by the "How could she do this to ME?" feelings. He's consumed with feelings of you breaking your marital vows of "til death do us part" and has minimalized his own faults, therefore thinking that you are making a mountain out of a molehill, which therefore rationalizes his feeling that you are sort of "betraying" him here.

Honestly I feel quite certain that he does really love you, but he has a TON of emotional baggage and other issues that he has been carrying. He never realized what he was doing to you, and still clearly doesn't understand yet either, but even if he did, his emotional instability would keep him doing those things out of fear. I think you have two choices here and neither one of them will be easy.

1. You can divorce him. This sounds easy but it won't be. You'll have to live with the life-long emotional scars of having gone through this, of having been joined together emotionally and spiritually and then ripped apart.

2. You can try to put the brakes on the divorce (easier said than done) and give him a year or so to sort through what he needs to work on to find healing for himself. He is not a healthy person and he needs to realize that first, and then find help for it second, and he really needs to do it alone. (or rather, without you. He can certainly get help from others) If you love the man, and can be patient to give him that chance, this is a great option, though it too won't be easy. Marriage Therapy would need to happen, but it really can't start until he is well into his own healing first.

As always, I hope you'll consider the latter, but that is a decision for every individual to make. Best of luck.


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## Uptown

JPC, the behavior you are describing -- verbal abuse, black-white thinking, frantic efforts to avoid abandonment, inability to trust, and inability to accept responsibility for his own actions -- constitute a well-known pattern of behavior called BPD traits (Borderline Personality Disorder traits). Whether those traits are so strong as to meet the diagnostic threshold for having full blown BPD is a determination that only a professional can make. Yet, even when the traits fall well short of that diagnostic threshold, they can undermine a person's ability to sustain a LTR. I therefore encourage you to read more about BPD traits so you know the red flags, i.e., are able to spot strong traits when they occur.


jpc said:


> he has all these issues from childhood about never feeling loved or wanted, etc.


A recent large-scale study found that 70% of BPD sufferers report having been abused or abandoned in early childhood. Although BPD is believed to be partly caused by heredity, the studies indicate that an abusive childhood greatly raises one's risk of developing strong BPD traits. Typically, the traits are not easily seen until the person reaches about 15 years of age, at which time they are trying to establish LTRs with people outside the family.


> he is also very controlling.


It is believed that, due to the trauma in early childhood, a BPDer (i.e., person having strong traits) develops two great fears: engulfment and abandonment. He carries these two fears from the age of 3 or 4. I mention this because the fear of abandonment causes a BPDer to be very controlling of nearly every aspect of the loved ones' lives -- to prevent abandonment.


> My husband and I have only been married about a year and a half. In that time, we've been to counseling twice.


If your H is a BPDer as I suspect, marriage counseling will be nearly useless because MCs are not trained to identify BPD traits, much less treat them. MC essentially treats couples how to have better communication skills. Teaching those skills to a BPDer, however, typically just teaches him to be better at manipulation. It does not address his underlying problems which will take years of therapy for him to learn to manage. If he is a BPDer, your H's emotional development was frozen at about age 4 by the childhood trauma. This is why you are seeing him throwing hissy fits and temper tantrums like a young child. Clearly, MC cannot even come close to dealing with a deficit like that.


> One of the biggest reasons we were in counseling is because of what happens when we get in a fight: It almost always starts over something insignificant,


It usually does with a BPDer. This is because the fight has little or nothing to do with the apparent reason he gives for starting the fight. Most of the time, he starts a fight over absolutely nothing as a way of pushing you away so he has breathing room. This occurs because a BPDer has such a weak, unstable sense of who he is that he will seek out a strong personality like you who will serve to ground and center him, helping him avoid shooting off in all directions. That is why he is so fearful of living alone -- lacking a strong sense of who he is, he feels like he is a ship at sail without a rudder.

Yet, once he is with you for a while, he will feel very threatened when you draw close in intimacy (not sex but, rather, true intimacy). It is very frightening for him. He will feel like he is evaporating in thin air or losing himself in your strong personality (which is why he is always accusing you of "controlling" him). This is why your very worst fights typically occur immediately after a wonderful intimate evening or great weekend together. Although he is unaware of the true reason, he is pushing you away because he is feeling suffocated. This is the fear of engulfment I mentioned above.

Yet, as you back off to give him breathing room, within a few days (or sometimes weeks) his other great fear -- abandonment -- will be triggered. He therefore will start reeling you back in by behaving very caring and sweet. And, as you have observed in recent days, your departure from the home will trigger such a severe abandonment fear that he will be focused single-mindedly on doing whatever it takes to win you back. This means he will say and promise anything it takes. And those promises, of course, almost certainly will evaporate within a few weeks.

I know what you're thinking. You're thinking what I thought throughout my marriage: everything will be okay if only I can find the Goldilocks position midway between "too far away" and "too close." Well, after searching for it for 15 years, I can confidently tell you that such a midway position -- where you avoid triggering BOTH of the fears -- does not exist.


> My husband always belittles my feelings and tells me that my point of view is just flat out wrong.


Part of this is due to his desperate need to control you, as mentioned above. Indeed, BPDers do so much of this controlling devaluation of their non-BPD spouses ("Nons") that Nons have given it a name: gaslighting. It is named after the classic 1944 movie "Gaslight," in which a husband (Charles Boyer) tries to drive his new bride (Ingrid Bergman) crazy so as to have her institutionalized, allowing him to run off with the family jewels.

Another reason for this devaluation of you is his need to project his bad thoughts onto you in order to avoid the shame of making a mistake and to reinforce his self image of being a perpetual victim. And yet another reason is his use of black-white thinking, which I discuss below.


> He *never* apologizes for anything, (he says he sees this as admitting defeat), and he *never* takes responsibility for his own actions.


BPDers do black-white thinking, wherein they categorize everyone as "all good" or "all bad." This is done because, due to their failure to integrate the good and bad aspects of their own egos, they are extremely uncomfortable with ambiguities and gray areas. 

Significantly, a BPDer applies this "all-or-nothing" thinking to himself too. This means that, if he acknowledges making a mistake, he pays a heavy price for it -- becoming "all bad" in his own estimation. Moreover, such a concession would undermine his self concept of being "a victim," -- a self image he clings to because it is the closest thing he has to a stable self image. The result is that a BPDer is far harder on himself (demanding perfection) than he is on his loved ones -- to the point that he likely despises himself, being well aware that the image he projects to society is false. Hence, the last thing he wants to find is one more thing to add to the long list of things he hates about himself. It is not surprising, then, that he is loath to admit to himself that he has made a mistake -- or has a flaw such as BPD traits.


> he told me he had "made his decision" and wanted a divorce, and that I had three days to get out of the house.... Then, on the third day, instead of dropping off a check, he shows up unannounced and is crying uncontrollably.


Whenever a BPDer is under stress, he switches immediately to black-white thinking -- at which time the emotional, intuitive, child-like part of his mind is fully in control. The logical adult part is "split off," which means his conscious mind is not in touch with it. The result is that, regardless of whether he is splitting you white (like now) or splitting you black (like when he told you to leave), the part of him that is talking to you is essentially a four year old boy. 

This is why you could not reason with him when he was insisting that you leave. And this is why you still cannot reason with him even though he has started adoring you again. Although he may appear to be accepting your reasoning now, he most likely is so focused on winning you back that he will agree to anything -- and he will actually believe it at the moment he is saying it. This usually means little, however, several weeks later when that abandonment fear has subsided.


> When I refused to stay in the house and moved my stuff out is when things got really crazy....First he started saying things like "You're destroying me" and "I have nothing else to live for".... Then he started sending suicide threats


Like I said, you are seeing frantic efforts to avoid abandonment by a frightened little four year old boy. But he is not your typical four year old. Rather, he is one having the body strength, intelligence, and cunning of a fully grown man. This makes him potentially very dangerous. Another thing adding to the danger is the tremendous amount of anger and shame he has been carrying inside since early childhood. That anger can be easily triggered -- within 10 seconds -- by any idle comment or innocent action that arouses his great fear of engulfment or fear of abandonment.

In the past year, you have already learned certain topics to avoid because they are triggers. Yet, because you never know for certain what innocuous comment will set off the next temper tantrum, you likely have been walking on eggshells for a year now. This is why the best selling BPD book (targeted to Nons like you and me) is called "Stop Walking on Eggshells."

As to the suicide threats, that likely is just an effort to control you. My BPDer exW did the same, sometimes walking to a high bridge when severely depressed, knowing I was following a half-block behind. When I stopped following, she would go to a subway platform, wait for a loud rumbling train to come by, and then call me and say she is going to jump in front of the next one. Then she would hang up.


> The one other time I broke up him, ...A couple friends helped me, and he called them terrible names (the c-word, etc.) and threw some of my stuff at us from the front door.


Like I said, your H has been throwing temper tantrums like a four year old. This likely started at six months into your relationship. You probably would not have seen it during the six month honeymoon period because his infatuation with you protected him from the two great fears (engulfment and abandonment). During that early period, he thought you were perfect and no threat to him whatsoever. 

Moreover, as his "savior," you reinforced his self image of being "the victim." And, when the infatuation evaporated, you continued to support his "victim" self image by being the "perpetrator" on which he can blame all misfortunes. This is one reason you are so valuable to him regardless of whether he is splitting you white or black.


> we've been to counseling twice already, and I just can't bring myself to live with it. Am I just over-reacting?


No. If your H is a BPDer, he needs individual counseling for several years before MC could be productive.


> Should I be trying harder to make things work?


If your H has strong BPD traits, it is impossible for you to do anything "to make things work." Even the professionals cannot do it. Only your H can change himself by deciding to confront his issues and learning to manage his emotions, to challenge his intense feelings by drawing on his adult logic, and to trust another human being. If he is to change, he must be willing to do that for himself. 

There are excellent treatment programs available but most psychologists do not have the specialized training needed to treat BPDers. They therefore usually refer BPDers to colleagues who do have that training. Hence, your H's best chance of improving is to find a clinical psychologist (i.e., having a PhD). He could get a recommendation through a trusted doctor or by calling and speaking to a head nurse in a psychiatric ward of a local hospital. Also, such information is likely available for your area online through searches. 

Sadly, very few BPDers have the self awareness and ego strength to seek such therapy and then stay in it long enough to make a difference. And, even when they do stay a long time to make the spouse happy -- as my exW did for 15 years of weekly therapy -- it won't make a bit of difference if he is unwilling to work hard on getting better. I spent over $200,000 on my exW's treatments from six different psychologists -- all to no avail.

I therefore encourage you to have a few sessions with your very own clinical psychologist -- without your H present. You can describe the situation and the T is most likely to speak candidly, saying "it sure sounds like ....." With your H along, however, the T likely will be loath to mention "BPD" even if he believes that is the true diagnosis. One reason is that a T knows a client almost certainly will quit T on hearing that dreaded diagnosis. Another is that the T knows insurance likely will cover none of the treatment costs unless he lists the "diagnosis" as a related disorder such as depression, PTSD, anxiety or bipolar.

I also suggest that you read more about BPD traits so you are better positioned to readily identify them. Although the disorder is difficult to diagnose, the traits themselves are easy to spot once you know what they are. That is, there is nothing nuanced or subtle about traits like verbal abuse, constant blaming, black-white thinking, abandonment fear, emotional instability, and temper tantrums. On this forum, an overview of such traits is provided in my posts in GTRR's thread. They start at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/anxiet...depressed-its-always-my-fault.html#post188319. At BPDfamily.com, there is an excellent article on "Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD" at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. Take care, JPC.


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## DelinquentGurl

Uptown,

You provided excellent advice.
I have often wondered if I have BPD myself, so many of the traits send warning signs.
I am going to check out that site you mentioned. Thanks!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

DelinquentGurl said:


> Uptown, You provided excellent advice. I have often wondered if I have BPD myself, so many of the traits send warning signs.


DG, keep in mind that all of us occasionally exhibit all nine BPD traits, albeit at a low level if we are emotionally healthy. These traits arise from primitive emotional defenses that help us all survive childhood. And they sometimes can play an important role in adulthood. The splitting, for example, is something we do every time we get startled. This is why, when you look up to suddenly see a truck bearing down on you while you are in a crosswalk, your mind is capable of only thinking "jump left" or "jump right." This dichotomous, black-white thinking can save our lives at times.

The BPD traits only become a problem -- as seems to be the case for JPD's H -- when they are so strong as to undermine the person's ability to sustain a LTR. If you believe that is the case with yourself, you should of course ask the therapist you are now seeing (I read your threads). And, if you want to go to a website for information, I strongly advise AGAINST going to the site I recommended for JPD. That site, targeted only to nonBPD partners ("Nons"), has lots of angry newbie-Nons who would be far too triggering for a BPDer. For you, I would highly recommend BPDrecovery.com, which is targeted to helping only BPDers. DG, I wish the very best for you and your H.


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## DelinquentGurl

Thank you for the web suggestion uptown, I am going to check it out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I do not think he has BPD. My guess would be a narcissist.


Homemaker, I am not saying JPC's husband "has BPD." That determination requires a diagnosis, which only professionals can do. Rather, I am saying he likely has strong traits of BPD. Lest that seem to be a distinction without a difference, I observe that -- even before you had graduated high school -- you could already spot strong occurrences of grandiosity and selfishness without being able to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could easily identify the class drama queen and show off -- without knowing how to diagnose Histrionic PD. And you could readily spot the very shy students without having to diagnose Avoidant PD.

As to your description of JPC's H as being "a narcissist" but not a BPDer, I note that BPD traits have a strong underlying characteristic of narcissism. Indeed, all ten of the personality disorders (PDs) have an underlying element of narcissism. This is why current draft of the revised Diagnostic Manual (to be released in 2013) no longer shows narcissism as being a separate PD. That is, it is being eliminated. Instead, narcissism is being listed as simply one of the traits for the remaining PDs -- primarily for BPD and Antisocial/Psychopathic Type. I mention this because, as I noted this morning in your "In Pain" thread, your H's behavior seems to exhibit strong traits of Antisocial/Psychopathic Type.


> With narcissist, negative attention is better than no attention at all.


This also is true for several disorders, including BPD. It is often said that BPDers "are only interested in creating drama, not finding solutions." The drama (regardless of whether it attracts positive or negative attention) supports their self image of always being "a victim."


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## DayDream

You named it right when you said he was very controlling. It is very clear that he has a violent "need" to be in control, which just masks his insecurities and perhaps an OCD tendency. He is controlling to the point where he will resort to drastic measures to basically "keep you in line". Even to the point of faking a suicide attempt. He cannot handle the fact that you have your own mind and that he cannot control every aspect of it to suit his world. In a relationship, your wants and needs and ideas are just as valid and important as your partner's. This man needs psychiatric help for this is more than just a personality glitch...this is a mental illness. If you do get back together and try to make it work, do so only under the understanding and agreement that he seek help for this problem...and make sure he recognizes that it is a problem. You seem to me to be just the type of person for him to control...someone different might have refused to move out until seeking a lawyer's advice because they would have realized you have legal rights to the house and the dog and just because he says something doesn't make it the law. I struggle with this myself...with continual rejecting my own feelings and needs to try to support my husband's and continual changing everything about myself to make him happy. I do recognize this is unhealthy and I am making efforts to change it, you need to too and it sounds like you are taking steps in the right direction by finally realizing your feelings do matter and by leaving. It is hard to accept that you do matter, I know...especially when you love your partner dearly. But unfortunately love can do crazy things and selfish people can really make you believe, using love, that they are more important than you.


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