# A year since considering divorce with little progress



## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

I’m on the brink of divorce with my wife. We have been married about 10 years and have 2 children at the preschool and kindergarten age. It has been about a year since I seriously started considering divorce and began trying to make the marriage better to avoid it. Little progress has been made.

At times I think we can be the miracle couple that got as close to the edge as you can get without falling over, and built things back and made a good and happy life for ourselves and children. But we can only seem to make nominal steps forward, while the core issues that keep pushing us farther toward the edge never really get resolved. On the rare occasion we actually are able to have a rational conversation, we can make agreements and plan out ways to make things better. But once back to normal those things just go out the window.

When I asked my wife to counseling, she would gripe and complain and make the experience so miserable until I finally gave up trying. I started seeking counseling on my own which she has also griped about though I've kept going anyway. That is pretty much how our relationship has worked in general throughout (a major reason for my unhappiness) . As long as I give in to whatever she wants – life can be somewhat peaceful, anytime I attempt something I want that doesn’t coincide with the former, life is miserable. And so I usually end up giving in to avoid the turmoil. Over time I grew more resentful of this arrangement, and started standing my ground more and more, while conversely the marriage has grown more miserable.

She also has little willingness or ability to compromise or reach mutually beneficial agreements together. Basically when I attempt to work together with her on a decision, she will hold the decision hostage, by blowing up any time I make a suggestion that doesn’t coincide with what she wants. That effectively ends the conversation, and she will never allow the conversation to come to a conclusion unless I’m giving her what she wants. In one such case she held a decision hostage for years before I finally had to just say I was making a decision that I felt was in the best interest of the family and explaining my rationale. Now years later she still acts unsupportive of it griping about how things would be so much better if…

There are a lot of areas this and other core issues affect: sex life, work-life balance, raising children, general family life, financial responsibility, maintaining our home, and I can probably list several more. I’ll likely go into more detail regarding the various issues, but this post is getting long enough already. I’m aware that I have my faults in this as well, but it seems like she blocks my attempts to improve and make things better.


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

I guess right now I feel similar to voting for the lesser of two evils. I'm not getting my needs met in the marriage. I'm not really even able to express my needs, so feel little hope about them ever being met in the future. But I have invested a lot in the marriage to this point, it will cost me even more to go, it will have negative effects on my children, will add more stress/complications in our lives (e.g. having to shuffle the children back and forth),and so on. And what would I get in return the freedom to entertain other women pretending to be what their not. Or maybe I can find one who will be honest about the fact that they want different things and won't be able to meet my needs. Regardless, I either end up alone or with another woman with whom I will still have issues (though possibly different ones)

But at least it would be more fun to pretend that there's hope. The fact is that things go smoothly when it's just me and the kids with the wife not around. And me and her have always done better when we're too busy to interact with each other.

I've always stayed for all the wrong reasons, and the more time goes on the more complicated ending the relationship would be. I'm torn now, because part of me wants to give this more time/effort, and the other part worries that if this drags on we will end up splitting later when the kids are older and be more detrimental to them.


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

It's similar to when your at a bad job for a while and you start accepting that as the norm and forget that there are actually better places out there to work...


or maybe it's just the grass is greener syndrome and there really isn't anything better out there.


if this is as good as it gets then what's the point...


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## RunningOnEmpty (Aug 29, 2010)

Do you see things getting better? What would it take for this to happen? Do you see your wife changing?

Do you see yourself staying where you are now for the next 13-14 years?


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

So when in your marriage did you lose your balls? Please go to the men's forum and read up on nice guys at the top of the forum

Yes. When you take control, she will resist. Because you are changing the dynamics of th relationship and so she will fight tooth and nail to keep the status quo. But, if you keep your boundaries, she will only hav to adjust to the new marriage paradigm. 

Make your decision. And never be afraid of your wife. Never be afraid of conflict. Make it. And when she yells, remain calm and Ask her if she talks to her friends that way, or even strangers. Then, tell her the discussion is over until she wishes to discuss it like a mature adult. Then drop the subject. If she continues, look at her sternly and say..."discussion is over." in a deeper tone. Leave the house if you must.

You must ALWAYS appear to be in control of your emotions. You are the captain of the ship. She is first mate. Let her state her opinions, but not in a derogatory way. Then, make YOUR decision based on her input, not her temper tantrums. Because you continually give into them, you are enabling her behavior because you fear her. Don't ever fear your woman. That makes you weak. Keep it up, eventually she will be finding herself a stronger man that isn't weak. And then you get the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech. 

With the comments about "things would be so much better if....". 
I would have replied..."well, that's your opinion. But it it what it is so deal with it"

If she says that about your marriage, then I would respond...."well, if thats how you feel, leaving is always an option to you if you think that is the solution"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

I have read many of the posts in the thread you suggested and know that this has been a major problem in our marriage. If this could have been addressed appropriately up front it would have been much easier to either come to a resolution or accept that we wouldn’t be able to and move on. At this point the issues/resentments/sensitivities have grown so strong I’m not sure if we will be willing or able to work things out. 

My wife mentioned early in the marriage that she wanted me to be more dominant in the bedroom. At the time I didn’t feel overly comfortable with that role (and told her so) since I was sexually inexperienced and had a strong religious upbringing with sex being a taboo subject. She on the other hand had the sexual experience to know what she wanted. So why didn’t she find a guy who knew what he wanted and make sure those needs were compatible. Because she wanted the nice guy that she could control in all other areas and who had the money to bail her out of her financial woes. I have major resentment about this.

She has told me that early on in the marriage she made a conscious decision to withdraw from me sexually – never talking to me about the problem, or even telling me there was one. She just kept pushing away my advances until I gave up trying. Maybe she did want me to just force her, but that is a manipulative game and there would be healthy, productive ways of trying to work with me to get what she wanted. (e.g. challenging me – I’m not going to give it to you unless…) Of course she didn’t mind using me for sex when she wanted babies – but that was it. Maybe 6 months ago, I bought some “better sex” DVDs as a way for us to try to get ideas for bettering our sex life from an external perspective (not just us talking about it) I ended up watching one on my own, but my wife has never even watched one of them with me

If I give her control of all other aspects of life it makes me feel like less of a man and then I don’t feel powerful enough in the relationship to feel comfortable with or even desirous of being dominant in the bedroom. My wife is a major feminist – though failed to share that info before we were married – and doesn’t want any man telling her what to do. To me she wants all the freedom and independence, without any of the responsibilities. (I could go on with my thoughts about feminism perhaps in a separate thread) 

On the other hand, if I try to take control in the relationship, she will fight tooth and nail and make life absolutely miserable until I give the control back. I have tried some of the things you’ve suggested and stood my ground on certain things, and depending on what they are they either get left in limbo unresolved, or I can do it on my own, but she won’t participate in any activity with me that isn’t something she specifically wants to do. I literally feel like she would leave things in limbo for a lifetime rather than ever compromise or give in. She will also create chaos and turmoil to prevent productive, proactive activity from happening – then everything gets pushed to the last minute. There she has the advantage of being louder / more adamant, and I tend to cave under the pressure of things needing to be done and feeling like I can’t afford for the fight to drag on any longer. In general, she’s going to win or everyone’s going to lose.

I read an article somewhere recently on not expecting the things you accept at the start of a relationship to ever change. I think my wife can change and I can change – I’m just not sure we can/will with each other.


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

RunningOnEmpty said:


> Do you see things getting better?


Not right now. At times I feel a glimmer of hope, but it is usually extinguished quickly.



RunningOnEmpty said:


> What would it take for this to happen?


I guess if I really knew the answer I wouldn't be here. I think if we really both wanted to and worked together we could find a way to make things work.



RunningOnEmpty said:


> Do you see your wife changing?


She has changed in some ways for the better over time. There are other things about her that I don't think will ever change. She may try or act like she's trying but it's not in her nature so eventually she will give in to her natural ways. I know I have to accept those things to stay with her. To me it's not about our differences but our inability to come up with effective means of working through our differences.



RunningOnEmpty said:


> Do you see yourself staying where you are now for the next 13-14 years?


No I'm more thinking in terms of weeks/months regarding how much longer I can put up with the way things are.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

OnTheBrink said:


> she wanted the nice guy that she could control in all other areas and who had the money to bail her out of her financial woes. I have major resentment about this.


So, in other words, she was holding the noose, but you willingly stuck your neck in it. This isn't about your wife, who sounds one step shy of being a dominatrix. Actually, she sounds like a spoiled beyotch.

HOWEVER .... you knew this, to some extent, prior to marrying her. You also know that she married a "nice guy" (read that to mean doormat she could walk all over), who would bail her out financially.

So what part of being used don't you understand? Reclaim your balls, and whether you win one battle or the entire war, let her make life miserable. Guess what? If you ignore her, set firm boundaries, and basically tell her to go to he!! if she doesn't like it, you will either (1) end up divorced; or, (2) she will start backing down.

Frankly, if she's as nuts as you portray her, I'd rather live alone and have the kids on weekends than put up with her crap. Life is short, and you can't put a price on peace-of-mind. I know, after living 10 grueling years with an alkie who got progressively worse. 

I wouldn't trade the peace and quiet I have in my life for anything. And it came with a price. It was worth it.


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

Let me talk about this weekend, which has been completely unproductive for both of us. Things hadn’t been too bad recently as in general we’ve done okay as long as we’re too busy to talk to each other. This can allow things to be somewhat stable but is only masking a problem which keeps us from having any kind of closeness in our relationship. Whenever we try to do anything together, this type of weekend is all too often the norm. We did okay over Thanksgiving and it seemed like my wife was trying and I applauded her for as much. However things were going her way and we didn’t spend that much time together. She spent the whole holiday with her family, when usually we have conflict trying to split time between the families with her and especially her family always complaining that she doesn’t get to spend enough time with them on the holiday. (anything less than the entire day doesn’t seem to be enough) She then went out shopping Thursday night and all day Friday.

[...excess detail removed to make post more concise...]

At some point in the above melee, I get frustrated to the point of cursing and calling my wife names (no rational discussion was working). She claims I’m verbally abusing her and at some point threatens to call the cops – at that point I had to just leave as quickly as possible since they will almost always side with the woman even with no proof. She thinks it’s okay for her to treat me however she wants, but if I respond in kind then she plays the victim. She has made these types of claims several times over the last couple years apparently trying to seek justification for and/or leverage in a divorce. So back to the dominate your woman to win her affection ideas – how can I really do that when I have to fear she could accuse me of abuse?

The next morning, I try to hold a brief conversation with her along the lines of – ‘Okay we’re not going to get everything done we need to this weekend, but how can we prioritize and salvage the rest as much as possible.’ As usual she’s still holding on to the fight from the day before, and since she succeeded in getting me to say mean things now that’s all the fight was about – keeping us from getting to the root cause. (And if she hadn’t she will antagonize me until she gets me to be mean before she’ll ever let the root cause be discussed if she thinks in anyway that might reveal she did something wrong.) 


[...excess detail removed to make post more concise...]


I know I need to grow a pair - I'm mostly just venting right now.


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## RunningOnEmpty (Aug 29, 2010)

What you describe is wrong in so many levels.

- It takes two to tango. Your wife is yelling, cursing,etc. But you are doing exactly the same.
-Even worse, your are doing this in front of your kids.
- You both are putting your arguments and disagreements above your kids. Placing them in the middle. Your older one is already acting up,being disobedient to you, and using you against each other.
- Going back to the first point. If you yell at her, curse, or call her names, you are no better than her. No matter how infuriating she may act, you are NEVER justified to become abusive, verbally or otherwise. 
- Under no circumstances engage your wife in a fight in front of your kids. 
- It seems your wife is setting you up to file a domestic violence claim against you, have you kicked out of the house, and her retaining full custody of the kids. 

Think long and hard on what you want to do, and do it.

Don't engage her, enter radio silence. Don't try to convince her or show to her the error of her ways.... You've been doing it for x years.... and it hasn't worked.

Being a man, doesn't mean yelling louder or calling names. If she starts a fight, simply say, firmly but calmly: When you are willing to discuss this as an adult, let me know. And walk away.

Regardless, either you both are willing to fix your relationship. This includes her recognizing her behaviour and be willing to change it, and you not enabling such behaviour and placing firm boundaries. Or you head for divorce.

Do you love her? Do you want to make it work? Why?


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

I agree we both have plenty of fault in the relationship getting to the point it is at now, and we both have fault in it's not getting better. 

We've been trying for a year, and haven't made significant progress. We both try in different ways at different times, but with the many prejudices (as one of our counselors calls it) and resentments that have built up over time, those efforts are easily derailed.

We simply cannot keep doing the same things and expecting a different result - something has to change!!!

I think we need a break from each other to put an end to the stalemate and give each of us a chance to determine if things will work better on our own, or to better appreciate what we have and provide motivation to fight not to lose it. I'm thinking during this time we should both be attending individual counseling to work on our own issues, and then after a period of time should start joint counseling.

We owe it to our kids (as well as selves) to get this figured out sooner than later. If we're going to split we should do it now while they are young. And if we're going to stay together we need to commit to building them a happy home to grow up in.


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## HappyLadyToo (Dec 3, 2011)

I am in the same boat only it's my husband. I am moving out next month after my son moves out because I can't live with it anymore. I've allowed many things to go on that shouldn't but he also is not willing to put the effort needed into the relationship to keep it healthy. He does not want to hear how I feel and when he does ask, if I'm fool enough to tell him, he trivializes my needs and tells me everything I'm doing wrong in the relationship. I'm not perfect but I can only do so much when there is no giving back. In June, I found this on divorcesupport.about.com:

When is it time to quit? If your marriage requires you to:
-put aside goals you have set for yourself
-isolates you from friends and family
-limits what you are allowed to do for entertainment
-change your belief system
-constantly nag to get what you want and need
-make excuses for your spouse's behavior
-feel as if you have to walk on eggshells
-live in fear of abuse
-let go of who you are as an individual
-worry constantly over the problems in the marriage
-question yourself over and over again about why you are still there

I have eight. What about you?


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## NotSoSureYet (Nov 10, 2011)

alphaomega said:


> You are the captain of the ship. She is first mate. Let her state her opinions, but not in a derogatory way. Then, make YOUR decision based on her input, not her temper tantrums.
> 
> 
> alphaomega said:
> ...


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

HappyLadyToo said:


> When is it time to quit? If your marriage requires you to:
> -put aside goals you have set for yourself
> -isolates you from friends and family
> -limits what you are allowed to do for entertainment
> ...


I have 5 definites with 4 partials or sometimes.

However,to be fair, I can see 4 of these my wife could definitely make a valid claim about me and 5 partial or sometimes (and she would probably consider more of them definites.

So what does that mean - that we're just not compatible?


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

[I removed my lengthy rant/vent posts from yesterday to try to allow this thread to be more focused...this is still not so short]

At the turn of the year when I started this thread, I was strongly considering separation. I had come to a point where I felt that was the best course of action and told my counselor so. He like most counselor’s today advised against separation – saying I should either proceed with a divorce, or stay and try to make things work. He cautioned me about the financial implications of a divorce. Afterward I sat down on paper and worked things out to see that myself, wife and kids would all be worse off financially if we split – not to mention the other negative effects on all of us. So this inspired me to really give it another try. I decided to take some of the money that would have gone toward the divorce and invest it in our relationship. The intention was to bet on us and give us incentive to make things work. But again I have good money chasing bad, and am putting myself in the position of feeling like I have even more to lose if things don’t work out – which gives her threats more power. Why am I such a fool? I understand where the counselor is coming from and know there is validity in his statements, but at the same time I'm now in a position where I feel more in the need of counseling. I want to assume the intentions were good and have to accept ultimate responsibility for the decisions I make. I just sometimes wonder where to draw the line on it being wise to get the advice of others and it being foolish to let yourself be overly influenced by others over what you felt was right?

The problem since I "invested" money in us is that when things go bad I start thinking - look if this isn't going to work let's figure it out now so we don't lose more than what we have to. I just don't want to resent paying that money if things remain bad or don't work out. And if I mention anything along those lines makes it appear I am more concerned about the money then her. I know the money is small change overall, and minute compared to the money we'd be jointly wasting if things don't work out. So while I think it was a mistake to make the investment at that point in time, it would likely be more unwise to let that pressure me into rushing a determination on the viability of our marriage.

So I met with my wife and said if we're going to divorce let's do it now, but as far as I'm concerned I'm going to try to make things work as long as she's willing. She tried making some efforts, but begrudged giving in the ways I really need from her. She won't talk to me about what she wants/needs - but then when I'm not meeting it gives up and stops trying altogether. Then in a fight she blurts out that I'm not doing something she mentioned in passing a long time ago.

Am I just not doing a good enough job at figuring out her needs? Do I need to change my approach - am I not trying hard enough?

I just go back and forth, it seems like we are both getting more and more frustrated with each other and the situation. I just worry about things continuing to get worse or never getting better and wondering if separting wouldn't be in all of our best interests.

About a week ago after things had been going down hill again, I repeated the question saying if she wanted out to take it, but if she didn't take it then we needed to commit to our family for the long haul.Then it would be our choice whether or not we had a happy or miserable family, but we would be stuck. She said she wanted to stay and make it work. Then this weekend, she's again challenging the very core of our family and acting like she wants out. Which when things get that miserable it gets me back to thinking about it as well. So am I being too weak that as soon as times get bad I'm willing to throw in the towel again - even if she's threatening that if I play into it am I not letting myself as well as our relationship and family be controlled by her emotions. 

Maybe if I held out just a little bit longer things would get better, but how long should one be expected to put up with this? Maybe I am being selfish and should put making my family work ahead of my needs (I just always feel like I put my needs off in hope of them being met in the future, but rarely are) Maybe, I have to accept that she may not ever give me what I would want from a wife. Maybe I just need to be stronger than that to hold our family together.

Thoughts?

Am I just not being strong enough to stick by the decision that logically it makes the most sense for us to stay together, and am allowing myself to be controlledby my emotions as a result of hers? At what point does the on paper best thing to do no longer matter if in practice it isn't working?

This weekend as has been the case many a time, we both didn't get work done that needed to, we didn't relax, didn't really spend quality time with the kids and we're going in to work late -starting off the week behind. I have been planning to change jobs for more than a year now as my current job has no future and is no longer fulfilling for me. It's possible if I wait too long the group I work in may even be eliminated. I have put that effort on hold for the most part, only making minimal progress because: I didn't want to change jobs with my home life in turmoil and have that possibly affect my reputation with a new employer, my wife took a new position full-time, so I didn't want to be more available to support her and not add more stress to both of us by trying to change at the same time. Then since the start of this year I planned to start hitting it hard, but again have made little progress to date - this is partly due to the busyness of life and still trying to make our family the higher priority and then more recently because the turmoil has started up again. I have an upcoming performance review that I know will not go well, partly because I wasn't put in as much effort since I was planning to go somewhere else, but partly because the turmoil at home hurt my ability to effectively meet my off-hours responsibilities.

One problem is she takes what she wants regardless of me and I just have to deal with the results, but since I try to be considerate of where my wants/needs fit in with the rest of the family they just don't get met. In the last few years - the only way I found to be successful in my work was to disconnect myself from her completely. Then we can both do our own thing. 

Is it better to have a disjointed family that is together or a divided family where the separate units are more stable? She grew up in at least a see what disfunctional home that stayed together, and look at all the issues she brought into marriage - so would the kids really be better off?


I feel like we both do better without the other person. I feel like when she's not getting what she wants, she withholds giving me what I need as a manipulative/control tactic.

When she works against me - I perform well below my capabilities
When she works with me and is meeting my needs - she really makes me a better person. 
(Again I see that I am too dependent on her - and she is too independent and somehow we need to find a way to be interdependent)


I think the same is true in reverse. So I want to think that if we can figure out how to meet each others needs, we can all win - and really build something good, but sometimes I wonder if our conflicting issues make this unfeasible.

I think I need to stick by my statement - that as far as I'm concerned we're stuck together, so we might as well do what we can to make things happy, because it's a long life to be miserable. I have to not allow her to disrupt my taking care of myself and career so I can 
best support the family.

What do others think? Am I fighting a losing battle here, or is it always worth fighting for unless there's absolutely no hope?


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

Please give some feedback!


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## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

No the kids wont be better off, you will both be miserable and they will see that in you. You sais it yourself that you arent happy together and you are better apart, so why stay together!? to save face? it cant be for the kids and you cant take money with you when you die and while you are on earth there is always a chance to earn more.

since you are thinking of a new job maybe you could take one in a city near by, just far enoiugh away where you could justify getting your own place, try that for awhile and see if you really are happier, if so then maybe divorce is the answer. no one ever said you have to be married to be happy. maybe that freedom to do as you please in life is what you need to be happy. Maybe you will even meet someone who you connect with better than your current wife. i cant promise you a better life but i know there are days for myself where the only thing that gets me out of bed is the hope of a better life, wether it be with my wife, with someone else or just by myself....


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## neganagatime (Feb 10, 2012)

Sorry I don't have any advice, but this sounds a LOT like my situation. We are finally seeing a MC after I told her I didn't think I wanted to stay married. MC seems like it might help, but part of me is afraid it is too little, too late. I have a lot of prejudices and resentments from years of dysfunction and a large part of me just wants to move on, even if my marriage is salvageable. I am concerned that this has me subconsciously sabotaging my marriage but I have no way of knowing.

Good luck. I'll be watching this develop.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Being more "dominant" does NOT mean focusing on how you can get her to do what you want. 

All dominance begins and ends with YOU. It starts with defining what behaviors you will/won't tolerate from her. But - the way you deal with them is by:
1. Absolutely forcing yourself to stay calm. By this time you know all her little tricks for upsetting you. Go write them down - seriously go make a long list of how she pushes your buttons. And then read it over and over and decide while doing so how you will respond to each one. And then write that down next to the trigger. 

My W makes critical comments in a nasty tone without good reason. Recognize that she doesn't have a good reason. Realize this is about HER, not about me. I will then either:
- Make a clever/funny comment (if I think of one on the spot) OR
- Ignore the comment and her entirely. As if she didn't say anything at all OR
- Look at her and respnd with "That type of comment is uncalled for and unacceptable" And then go on about my business and refuse to "debate it with her. If she attempts to justify it I will just quietly look at her until she finishes speaking and then will turn my back to her and go do something else. 

AND if she pursues it - escalates - tries harder to anger me I will go in a room and shut/lock the door and do something constructive until enough time has passed for us both to remain calm. But when I come out of the room - I will not speak to her for a while to let her know I MEANT it when I said that wasn't acceptable behavior. I will NOT try to "kiss and make up" when I am the injured party. AND I will not do extra/nice things to her unless she acknowledges she was out of line. 

AND AND AND:
I will never curse at or say hateful things to my W. I won't do things that might cause her to fear I am going to get physical. These are ABSOLUTES and a required part of being a good husband. I will LEAVE the house if need be if I have somehow allowed her to cause me to become too angry to function. 

When she is pressuring me to do something that is very "one sided" like spending the entire holiday with her family I will make her a fair offer: Thanksgiving with your family/Christmas with mine or half day at each on both holidays. IF she refuses a fair offer I will say "that is the best I can do - if you won't meet me half way I will not go to your parents house at all - and not just on holidays. If she chooses to be with them - without you there at all - that is her choice. But no matter how unfair her request is you REMAIN CALM. Because you will have written down what you will do in this situation IN ADVANCE and the first thing you will have written is: HER lack of fairness is about HER, not about ME. I am not going to get angry about HER bad behavior. Instead I am going to calmly give her fair choices including "I don't go there at all" on Christmas - which should be part of a package including YOU don't buy her any gifts for Christmas and don't accept any gifts from her. 







OnTheBrink said:


> Please give some feedback!


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

Well, I've finally reached the conclusion that the relationship needs to end. I really want to thank everyone who gave me advice and encouragement here, so I could reach this point with confidence that this is the right thing to do, and with the ability to truthfully tell my kids later that I did everything reasonable I could to make the family work. I've reached the conclusion that while I know it would be ideal if we could stay together, given that we aren't really 'together',it will be in everyone's best interest in the long term to separate. You can read about the last straw at the following link. Of course this is not what the divorce will be about - it is just the point at which I realized its necessity.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...as-gotten-little-too-friendly-my-brother.html

I also started another thread with some additional struggles at the following URL.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/44030-tired-being-held-hostage.html

But I will post about my divorce planning and such on this original thread. I'm sure I'll have lots to write about, but will keep it 'short' (for me at least) for now due to time constraints. The main thing I have to decide first is when and how to tell my wife. I tried to force the issue to make this determination early in the summer, but my wife acted like she was on board with making things work. At this point, it is too close to school starting to attempt separation, and I feel like at the least I need to let the school routines get running smooth before mentioning anything. We also both acquired some debt over the last year - myself trying to make 'investments' in our family and relationship, wanting to spare no expense in trying to make things work - for my wife, she had opened her own accounts and was doing her own finances while not informing me when she was really 'out of money'. So it will be in everyone's best interest if we can pay these off before we physically separate, which can be achieved by the end of the year. I'm tempted to wait until then to tell my wife out of worry that she might do something rash that messes both of us up financially, but I don't think it would be fair not to allow her to get mentally prepared. I'm also not sure if it would be good to split during winter break, or better to wait till the summer and live as roommates until then. 

Thoughts?

The main pressing item for me to decide now is whether to join on with my wife's bank account, which we've planned for the end of the week. We've worked together on a joint budget for the new school year, while my wife insisted on keeping a separate account. So I was going to join that account so that I could be aware of what's going on financially there, and I could spend money directly from the account it is budgeted to come from rather than trying to get it transferred later, which often doesn't happen. On the one hand it seems odd to join if I plan to separate in the near future anyway, on the other there could be several advantages to doing so, such as: 1) It would make it more difficult for my wife to take money from our joint account and hide it here once she knew things were going to end, 2) It would help us ensure financial balance so we can be in a better position to split, and 3) Getting my wife into the habit of following a budget and seeing the advantages of doing so should help her after the split when money is tighter than she is used to. She's on my account now, so why should I not be on hers, and we can both drop off the other's later.

Thoughts


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I don't see where you have gotten much advise( responses to your threads) here at all. I think you should have posted in the general relationship forum probably.

I also don't see what advice you have followed. 

You haven't gone to MC.

You haven't mentioned any books you have read. 

You haven't mentioned anything, specifically you have done.

You haven't mentioned what needs haven't been met.

There are tons of things you could have done to get yourself straight even if you have to divorce. No matter where you go, there you will be.

You do sound good at getting into a fight however. I pity your kids.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

From the outside looking in, the most common element in this thread is "I cave." Do you realize that you have taught her to escalate her performance until you cave? Do you understand that holding firm--time after time after time--is the only way to "undo" what the two of you have created?

there is something called the "extinction burst," but all it means is that behaviors will get worse before they get better, when one person initiates a change. The key to surviving the extinction burst is. . . you guessed it, don't give in.

For the sake of your kids, I honestly think you should try this--see if YOU can get past the escalation of her griping, etc. 

Make one decision about something that is in the family's interest, and stick with it. Start doing that, once each day, just to do it. She can gripe or she can go along. You do not need to bother with what she thinks/wants. You will do what you think is best.

Until you get to the point where she actually believes you will CONSISTENTLY hold your ground on what you think is right, nothing will change. The year you have spent is time spent teaching her to escalate, not teaching her that you mean what you say.

But, on the other hand, depending on what your kids have been through, it might be best to separate for 6 months or so. You could try nesting--one house w/the kids, one apartment/room elsewhere. On your day with the kids, you are in the house and she's in the apt. On her days, you reverse it. This gives the kids the stability of the home and allows each of you time away to --god willing--think, relax, decompress, etc.

Whatever you decide, good luck.


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

chapparal said:


> I don't see where you have gotten much advise( responses to your threads) here at all. I think you should have posted in the general relationship forum probably.
> 
> I also don't see what advice you have followed.


I was using another message board for about a year before I started posting here. While I did get more responses there, I felt like the membership here consisted more of people who were or had been in similar situations. I also posted more and more often on the original site, but in the last year or so I've intentionally spent more time/focus on working on the marriage over complaining about it. (we have quite busy lives) So I mostly posted here when I needed to vent. I guess I was referring to advice received from both sites, and not really remembering what came from where. Ultimately, the decision comes after input from MC, IC, books, messageboards (direct and indirect - other threads), as well as years of trying to work through things with my wife and personallu analyzing what would be best for our children as well as each of us.



chapparal said:


> You haven't gone to MC.


I went with my wife to a few different marriage counselors for over a year, until my wife stopped going. At the same time, I started individual counseling and continued for over 2 years.



chapparal said:


> You haven't mentioned any books you have read.


In the last year I have read:

The 5 Love Languages
Stepping Up (A men's guide)
How to Fight Fair
The Love Dare (which I took)



chapparal said:


> You haven't mentioned anything, specifically you have done.
> 
> You haven't mentioned what needs haven't been met.
> 
> There are tons of things you could have done to get yourself straight even if you have to divorce. No matter where you go, there you will be.


I agree that from what is written on these threads there is not enough information for someone to truly understand the situation and be able to give an informed assessment of whether divorce is the appropriate choice or not. Ultimately though, while advice/input should be sought from external sources, that is a decision that has to be made internally. 

I won't care to get into all the details of things I've done and needs not met, but will likely post more over time. To start with things done, I've read and implemented ideas from the books above, including taking the Love Dare. As far as needs: that I haven't had sexual needs met for years probably goes without saying, and as far as basic emotional needs: the need to feel valued/appreciated/supported stands out.



chapparal said:


> You do sound good at getting into a fight however.


 Because I disagree with you?



chapparal said:


> I pity your kids.


I do not appreciate your implication that my kids are worse off because of me, and I think it's uncalled for. If I get a divorce from my wife, does that automatically make me the stereotypical deadbeat dad who abandons his children?

Perhaps it would be better for you to first inquire to get more information before you jump to conclusions based on assumptions.

I understand that people will tend to project their own hurts/issues/etc. onto other situations, so I don't take any of this personally. I actually appreciate the negative feedback here...I know I will face people judging me and treating me negatively when the divorce becomes known.


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

sisters359 said:


> From the outside looking in, the most common element in this thread is "I cave." Do you realize that you have taught her to escalate her performance until you cave? Do you understand that holding firm--time after time after time--is the only way to "undo" what the two of you have created?


Yes - I understand that I was an enabler of this behavior from the start of the relationship, and that I reinforced it for years and years. At this point though I don't believe she will change - at least not with me. 

For example,about 3 years ago, I finally took a stand in an area that I felt was in the best interest of our family. My wife had resisted for years, always starting a fight when I'd try to talk about it, so there was no way we would ever be able to reach a decision together. I finally just had to make the decision personally and then talk with her explaining that I understood her point of view and took it into consideration, and why I made the decision I did. Of course there was ongoing griping and complaining for months and months, which eventually trailed off once my wife realized I wasn't reverting course. But still to this day, my wife rarely participates with the family in this area, and when she does it is usually a less pleasant experience. She will still say that my decision was wrong and that things would have been better off the other way, at times using a minor negative circumstance as a reason for an 'I told you so'. I had made a similar decision at the start of our marriage, which I finally gave in to revert after my wife made things in that area so miserable. I resented her for years because of it, but more recently realized I was more resenting myself for not standing my ground. So this was an important stand for me to make and follow through on, but I feel like my wife will always work against it.

A running theme throughout our marriage is she will get her way, or she will go her separate way. This affects essentially every area or our marriage including how to raise the kids, our sex life, our financials, day to day tasks and decisions, long term decisions and planning, and the list could go on.

I will get into more details later, but I have explicitly stated my expectations and what I needed from my wife to make things work, and have set deadlines and pushed them back a few times in hopes that things would get better. My wife continues to undermine and work against me anytime things don't go exactly the way she wants. I do not believe my kids will be better off in a disjointed, dysfunctional family, and I refuse to participate in one any longer.


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

One other issue - is that my wife knows something is up with me - I'm not good at hiding my feelings - and is insisting we talk about it...I know I will not be able to delay saying something too much longer...I just need to think about how to best approach a conversation...we are about to enter a stressful time, and I don't want to let this exacerbate the other - or vice versa


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

OnTheBrink said:


> I was using another message board for about a year before I started posting here. While I did get more responses there, I felt like the membership here consisted more of people who were or had been in similar situations. I also posted more and more often on the original site, but in the last year or so I've intentionally spent more time/focus on working on the marriage over complaining about it. (we have quite busy lives) So I mostly posted here when I needed to vent. I guess I was referring to advice received from both sites, and not really remembering what came from where. Ultimately, the decision comes after input from MC, IC, books, messageboards (direct and indirect - other threads), as well as years of trying to work through things with my wife and personallu analyzing what would be best for our children as well as each of us.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







Iwas not accusing you alone of starting/ continuing fights but you both. Same with the kids, you both are repnsible for their pain. Pain they will share with your grandchildren etc.


The two most important books you can read, pretty much the consensus here, is 

Married Man Sex Life

No More Mister Nice Guy

For you and your wife

His Needs Her Needs

Five Love Languages

Love Busters


If you are this close to divorce, read the books and at this point you can insist your wife reads the last three or gets an attorney.

Prayers for you and your family,

Chap


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

chapparal said:


> Same with the kids, you both are repnsible for their pain. Pain they will share with your grandchildren etc.


I know in divorce everyone loses and there is pain for all. IMO the pain for the kids would grow larger and more damaging the older they get. That is one of the main reasons I have been trying to force the issue now, for us to go one way or the other.
If we divorce while they are young, they will grow up more with that just being the way things are - but still always being different than the norm. My older one is already getting to the point of understanding which really bothers me.

I also don't think that necessarily staying together is best for the kids. My wife's grandparents on her mom's side had a very bitter/resentful marriage, and all of her kids had various issues as a result. Her Dad had his own issues and she grew up in a mostly dysfunctional family. She is now bringing that pain into our family.

I feel like if we separate, I would at least have the opportunity to display a healthy lifestyle when the kids are with me. I would hopefully find a wife where I could model a healthy spousal relationship for them. And I would have to accept that I can't control what my wife does with them, but would hope that she gets help and gets better. Maybe she could find someone she is more compatible with that would bring out the best in her - instead of the worst.


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

I am open to trying anything though, and we do have some time before it would make sense to separate, so I will look up the books you mentioned.

I guess, my question is at what point do you call it? I feel like no matter how much you've tried, or how bad things are, there will always be someone saying to stick with it no matter what, and if you just try such and such things could be better.

I know I will need a more open and positive attitude for anything to work...guess I'm just a little cynical at this point.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

The problem with most marriages ends up being an ego clash. Small things escalate into big things ending up in distrust and resentment. However, if just one person refuses to fight and keep a level head a lot can be accomplished. Some people are just plain psycho and there is no way around it. Even here though, who wants to leave their children alone with them and the people/ men they will will bring into the home.

Also, the odds are you will get the shaft in a divorce, men usually do.

One counselor I heard said the last option is leaving a daughter and having the wife bring a man into the home that is not a blood relative to live. This is a much bigger problem than most people realize. 

Many people here push divorce as the best thing to do. However, they never show the studies that refute the studies showing what a disaster divorce has on families especially children. Even in infidelity, polling shows 80% of families that divorce over infidlity wish they had stayed together and worked it out. Hindsight is great ain't it.


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

chapparal said:


> I am not anti divorce, I am pro parents growing up and getting alon to raise their children and leaving their infated egos at the door. Angry fights are just ego battles. Learn how to be strong and still get along.


Point taken.


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

I will give this some more time, and really hope that we can make this work. On paper, we can have something really good that would be a shame to throw away, but we've got to put it into practice to make it a reality. If things will stay the same or get worse then the relationship will ultimately fail, so it's important to assess whether you're moving forward or backward. It also can be hard to assess if something is just a step back or if you're moving in the right direction. It seems we've made progress in some areas, but our fights, when we have them, have gotten worse. I think that is mostly due to frustration on both of our parts - that we still aren't where we want to be.

I think the His Needs Her Needs will be good for both of us to read through, and I know the Mr. Nice Guy book should be good for me. While it's true that if it's not going to work we'd be better off ending now than let this be more damaging later, worrying about this too much can make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Negativity breeds negativity and distrust more distrust. Similarly, setting deadlines, can add pressure to the situation, and possibly I expected too much too soon. I think it will be better to have checkpoints to make sure we are moving in the right direction. I'll try to check in on here from time to time to give an update on the progress.


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## OnTheBrink (Dec 4, 2011)

Well, I’ve made it through the first two chapters of No More Mr. Nice Guy, and I can definitely relate to the characteristics of the nice guy described. This makes me feel hope that if I can effectively address the flaws of this persona, I can interact productively with my wife to change the climate of our home to support building a happy and healthy family. I have long since realized the error of the overly accommodating, agreeable manner in which I started the relationship, but have not yet been able to find a way out of the dysfunctional relationship it has contributed to making. I’ve also been postulating that the societal changes in the modern era have been the biggest factor in the increase in divorce and family problems we’re seeing today. It was nice to see the author’s comments on this in the 2nd chapter, which are coming from some one who has spent significant time researching/studying the topic.

Of course, describing a problem well, and providing an effective solution for it are two different things. I’m hoping by the end, I feel that the latter has been achieved. For instance the Stepping Up book I read sounded really good up front, but for me never really offered anything of much value. For the record, I thought the 5 Love Languages and The Love Dare were really good and insightful, though I wasn’t able to achieve the desired change in the relationship as a result (these probably would have been more effective along those lines if read/applied earlier before the problems got so bad). Similarly, the Fight Fair book was good and helped me to better understand the factors involved in our fighting. Maybe we fight a little less now, but still haven’t been able to keep a lot of the fights we do have from getting out of control.

It’s easy to be cynical at this point, but I will be positive, and look for how the insight from the book can help in resolving the core issues. I know that I cannot expect any book or advice to magically fix the problems on its own, but rather this has to be resolved from within using those as a guide.


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