# Seriouly, just try to make money "nothing"



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

When I look back and consider how much of my life's decisions and time spent were done with "more money" being a prime objective....

It's like Joseph Campbell said in his interview with Bill Moyers. "People don't usually seek faith or religion because they want to find out what happens after death. What they really want is to know how to live a genuine life."

I connected with my now-ex when I was 25. At that point in my life, I had a decent paying job, but no real direction. This woman, a few years older than me, seemed to have a grasp - she spoke of career progress, talked of persuading management to do this or that. My folks had always spoken of how important it was to have money, career stability, conservative spending and all that, but I didn't know the actual mechanics. I needed to learn. A few lunches went by and I dared ask her out for a date...she was older, after all and smarter and more successful, who the heck was I? I was surprised when she grinned from ear to ear and said yes and not long after that we were living together.

We were living then in the US south, and the heat and humidity were miserable for our allergies, so we moved west together and bought our first house. I let her make all the choices, since she was financially experienced. She earned more and had savings already and I did not, so I accepted what she said. She was certain that houses go up in value faster than anything, so we bought the biggest that had a mortgage we could pay on our incomes. I had no down payment, so it was all hers, and an agreement was made that I would pay 100% of the utility and food bills until I'd paid enough to equal that down payment. I kept track of what I paid when, offered to show it to her, she just said let me know when we're balanced.

Our jobs changed, we had to move, we sold that house, bought another, she spent money on upgrades since they'd increases the profit we made from the house...but when I looked at the numbers I didn't see these "house investments" earning at the market rate..something I now knew how to do.

When we met, she'd said she wanted to be less materialistic, but instead she'd gotten more - and I'd grown tired of everything being about money. Without going into much detail, I put a few years work into it and decided to move on.


And now, why has it come back up? My desire to be careful with money and track all my expenses so she and I could balance thiings out -became a habit. I saved receipts, I made Excel spreadsheets showing the cost of energy...one good thing, I learned how to use a lot less energy. 

Well, I'm in year 3 of massive slashing of junkage...all that "stuff" that accumulates over a lifetime.

And I came across - how many? - THIRTY boxes of files....18 years' worth...receipts. We burn all such things in a wood stove - local county laws say this is fine as long as it's heating season and we use the heat. Four days of tearing out staple, feeding the fire - slowly since I didn't want to overheat the house. Then, thinknig about the literally YEARS that went into all that precious detailed analysis, all the discussions.

And then thinking of how many forests I did not hike, how many dances I did not attend, how many social outings skipped - because we were updating the house, fixing one of the fancy cars, taking yet another class on investing.

Please...if you possibly can...figure out how to need very little money and do not let the topic waste your marriage and yourselves.

Mutt


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

My wife and I have always been far more focused on what we _do _than what we _have_. It is one of the great means of our compatibility. We bought a house well below our means and paid it off early. We have never, ever had a car payment or any kind of debt, save for the mortgage which we eliminated in just 11 years. We have also moved many times, which really drives us to minimize possessions. We put just enough into the house to keep it standing and make it pleasant for guests. Other than that, we really don't care because we generally be out and about rather than in the house.

Of course, that doesn't mean money isn't a huge concern. 3 kids (college, and we would like to leave a significant legacy when we die), and all that "out and about" time "doing" stuff costs money as well. Walking in the woods may cost no more than a decent pair of shoes, but backpacking (tent, packs, bags, etc), mountain biking, and travel all cost quite a bit more, so we work hard to earn/save to facilitate our desires. Fortunately for us, both our desires are experiential rather than material. So we still have a significant financial focus, but we find it to be set on things which are bonding, so it's all good.

The Science Of Why You Should Spend Your Money On Experiences, Not Things
https://www.fastcompany.com/3043858/the-science-of-why-you-should-spend-your-money-on-experiences-not-thing


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I like money, and would enjoy having more of it, but not at the cost of focusing primarily on getting more of it. It's not for things that I can buy, it's for what I can DO. We all want at least enough for decent, lasting security: food, housing, and health care (those are my primary concerns). Once those are taken care of adequately, it's about living happily.

What I want to DO to live happily is have experiences with the people I love and care about, travel, and help others. Some of those experiences - and especially travel - require money, sometimes lots of it. But I'll still manage to have great experiences - within my budget.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Money is like a wide range of other "assets" - health, beauty, education, etc etc. Its good to have but it shouldn't be the focus of your life and people should maintain a reasonable balance. 

The biggest trap with money is to start viewing it as a competition with others. For example a good condition honda accord is comfortable and reliable - so if you find yourself wanting something more expensive you need to be honest with *yourself* as to why. Its OK to want more, but if the reason is to have a better car than anyone else, its a game you are never going to win.

Same idea for houses, hotels, food etc etc. Spending money on nice things is fine, but trying to out-do others will always fail, unless you happen to be one of the few multi-billionaires. 


I have a job that I enjoy that pays enough for all the things I enjoy. I've made a conscious decision not to move to a job that pays more but which I would enjoy less because the extra money would not really change my life.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

uhtred said:


> The biggest trap with money is to start viewing it as a competition with others.
> 
> Same idea for houses, hotels, food etc etc. Spending money on nice things is fine, but trying to out-do others will always fail, unless you happen to be one of the few multi-billionaires.


I'm reminded of a very cool thing I read by Ayn Rand, who is often falsely accused of worshiping money. She said that people who have to outdo the Jones's are not selfish, but rather selfless, which sounds the exact opposite of how we view such people and those words. But she explained her point perfectly. People who base what they want on what others have, actually have no sense of self, hence selfless. The point is that, no matter how successful these people appear in material gain, they are rather unsuccessful as self-actualized human beings. Very wise, Ayn.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Money far supercedes sex in my list of concerns for staying married. 

Spend on Experiences, not Junk. Even good quality junk.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

DustyDog said:


> When I look back and consider how much of my life's decisions and time spent were done with "more money" being a prime objective....
> 
> It's like Joseph Campbell said in his interview with Bill Moyers. "People don't usually seek faith or religion because they want to find out what happens after death. What they really want is to know how to live a genuine life."
> 
> ...


Sounds like sage advice!

Thanks


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> My wife and I have always been far more focused on what we _do _than what we _have_. It is one of the great means of our compatibility.
> 
> ...
> Walking in the woods may cost no more than a decent pair of shoes, but backpacking (tent, packs, bags, etc), mountain biking, and travel all cost quite a bit more, so we work hard to earn/save to facilitate our desires. Fortunately for us, both our desires are experiential rather than material. So we still have a significant financial focus, but we find it to be set on things which are bonding, so it's all good.
> ...


Very cool that you know about Thomas Gilovich. I encountered him via a class called "The Science of Happiness", offered through combined efforts of the neuroscience and psychology departments at University of California at Berkeley.

It got me diving deeper into Gilovich's many books. 

He basically underscores very old philsophic advice from Epictetus. That first century AD Greek philosopher claimed that humans may choose pursuits from three categories and that was about it.

The most base pursuits are "to have". Food is needed, housing is dubious - at the time of his writing, most people did not have housing and they were quite happy. Beyond the consumables we need to stay alive, he suggested that owning things ultimately became a burden.

The second category of pursuit is "to do", that is, experience something, which he said would offer more enrichment, and that a "normal" life was that of doing all day long.

The third category could be seen as an enlargement of "to do" and that is "to be". This category is all about things that make you a better person, living at a higher spiritual (e.g. self-actualized) plane, with an increased capacity for contributing.


Gilovich adds more detail to Epictetus' observation, saying that not all things that we think are experiential are. For instance, if you pay money to go see a live band, you are basically consuming. The psychological and physiological benefits of a true experience are not measured after consuming. Same goes for attending paid professional sports, etc. If your role is to be there, and the primary actors/performers are not directly engaged with you, then it doesn't have the benefits of an "experience" as Gilovich defines them.

Experiences come in many forms and he attempted to sort out which sorts of experiences were 'better', that is, had more lasting effects on increased happiness. At the top, he called them "transformational" - things that actually caused you to view the world differently than you did before. For most people, a summer spent in a third world country would have that impact. This would be an example of an Epictetus category 3 experience...you have become someone else, someone capable of viewing the world, and life, in a completely new context. What about college classes? If they're just the next class in a sequence intended to teach skills, they aren't transformational, but if taken in person, they can have the result of expanding your social circle, which is a foundational principle of experiences which lead to long-term improvements in happiness and health. 

The more different your experience is than your normal life, the longer the benefits last. For instance, if you live in San Fransisco, a visit to NYC won't have as much long-term impact compared with a hike in the Grand Canyon. If you're acclimated to spending on technology to create an experience, then you'll be less impacted by learning to fly a corporate jet, compared with someone who still drives a 30 year old stick-shift car.

One surprising result was that the more people paid for an experience, the less it had long-term beneficial effects on happiness and health. Gilovich posited a theory but said it needed validation, which, at the time of when I read him, he hadn't done. His theory contained two parts. First, when we pay more for something, we have higher expectations for it. The impact of anything is a comparison with what we expected. Pay double for a car and you expect a lot more, so if it's only a smidge more comfy than the Chevy you sold, you may not feel the car is praise-worthy. Secondly, and he felt this one had the potential to be more profound, experiences that cost less usually are the ones that put you on the ground floor, side-by-side with whoever lives there locally - you did not buy that experience, in a very real way you created it yourself.

To that point, I only have my own data. I've been to China...buncha times, I'd have to think hard to come up with the number. Most of those times were the usual corporate route...buy an airline ticket, book a 4-star hotel, spend a month in Shanghai, Beijing, Suzhou, Guanddong or wherever I needed to be to conduct the business I had to do. All of those trips were enlightening in one way or another. The first trip to Shanghai showed me a much greater disparity between rich and poor than I'd ever seen...astonishing.

But one trip...was different. The final destination was Anshan, in far northeast China, a place the country really doesn't want visitors to see. They have done nothing to curb emissions from the local steel smelters...and they haven't really built up much of a visitors industry. There's one hotel where they allow foreigners to stay. The blankets were coarse horsehair. You had electricity two hours a day, hot water for less. The tap water was dangerous to drink. And this was, to them, a 5-star hotel. This was a business trip, but the overall "optics" if you will, looked like an artists's depiction of a slum. Anshan is quite large but there's nothing shiny there and gray is the only clothing color to be seen...prosperity has yet to reach it.

The highlight of the trip, for me, was when I was able to convince my driver and interpreter to permit me to stay with his family for two week. Out to the farmland we go and I got two weeks of living and working on a farm that had no electricity, natural gas or other 'delivered' energy. The home was heated with dried field grasses and animal dung in a crude stove similar to a wood stove and to make those heat sources last, I'd say the interior was never heated above 50 at night. It was planting season and they had but one burro to pull the plow, so about half the planting and furrowing was done by having the stronger people roped to a hand plow!

On the weekend, he took me to the mountains...a mix of horse, burro, rusty Jeep and hiking...over the top of the Tienshan Mountains we go and stop at a river. The border between China and North Korea.

it was the only time in my life that I realized my very existence was dependent on that one man - if I lost sight of him, I'd have never been able to get home. I was too young to understand the concept at the time, but IMO, that was quite a transformational experience for me.

Mutt


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> *My wife and I have always been far more focused on what we do than what we have. It is one of the great means of our compatibility. We bought a house well below our means and paid it off early. We have never, ever had a car payment or any kind of debt, save for the mortgage which we eliminated in just 11 years. * We have also moved many times, which really drives us to minimize possessions. We put just enough into the house to keep it standing and make it pleasant for guests. Other than that, we really don't care because we generally be out and about rather than in the house.
> 
> *Of course, that doesn't mean money isn't a huge concern. 3 kids (college, and we would like to leave a significant legacy when we die), and all that "out and about" time "doing" stuff costs money as well. Walking in the woods may cost no more than a decent pair of shoes, but backpacking (tent, packs, bags, etc), mountain biking, and travel all cost quite a bit more, so we work hard to earn/save to facilitate our desires. Fortunately for us, both our desires are experiential rather than material. So we still have a significant financial focus, but we find it to be set on things which are bonding, so it's all good.*
> 
> ...










This sounds so much like myself and husband... 

We started out with a dream... neither of us had good paying jobs when we met... but we were savers ... our vision was to find a house in the country, some land to call our own, have a # of kids.. I am a stickler about paying bills on time, even ahead of time...I couldn't sleep at night if we had debtors calling.. but at the same time... our expectations were lower staring out... we did things as though we lived on 1 income -always.. yet still managed to have everything fall into place....we've never bought a new car...it was always about managing our money to get the most out of it... and this had to include family vacations, leisure, many day trips - making memories along to way...giving our children a treasure of good times to look back upon..

Later in life, when the kids got older & could babysit.. we took more Romantic get always.. looking back.. we should have taken more of those when they were growing.... 

I am working full time again ..fearing my husband may get laid off & we'd loose our family health benefits.... So here I am.. I missed son's last Prom, daughters Concert last night... a party tomorrow night... but still... when we get 2 days off together...these are golden, marked in my calendar in red... these blocks of time are reserved... still enjoy finding new 
destinations on Trip Adviser , some new adventure we can experience.. with the kids, or just getting away ourselves... you do what you gotta do.. but we need to "LIVE" and enjoy in the meantime.. 

It's all about managing our *Time* as well as *Money*.... especially living in such a "rushed" society, we are so busy!...


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

I am a huge money nerd and keep every receipt and log everything on spreadsheets. I can tell you to the penny how much we spend on groceries/petrol/clothes/toiletries etc each month because I average it all out so I can budget accordingly. I literally know where every penny goes.

Yes, my family roll their eyes and mock me for this. But being financial aware has meant when the 'tough' times came, we were prepared.

When my son was diagnosed with a disability and increasingly became a 2 man job, my H was able to cut his hours to term time only so we can care for him together in the holidays, and also have time for each other (our marriage) when he is at school. So, although I am not super thrifty to the point of not enjoying our money (not by any means) the years of being aware of where each penny is going has meant that we have been able to make good budgets and sensible investments. Even when we were fairly poor, we never lived by the seat of our pants.

When I talk to friends and family about their financial struggles I am often speechless at how they have no idea how much they spend on the basics. Let alone luxuries.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

My W and I have items that we use year after year. Items that initial cost is miniscule compared to the years of enjoyment to come. Concerning cars, I will drive them into the ground. My W will do the same. She hangs onto them as long as she can. More so because the vehicle is familiar to her. I once took her to see a top of the line Toyota 4Runner. Not impressed. Loves her 11 year old Mercury SUV. So be it! 

If there is anything my folks did not face when I was a kid is cell phone, internet and paying for cable TV. The amount I spend monthly is just outlandish. Heck, I was the rabbit ears 3 channel black and white TV generation.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

There's an interesting show on Netflix which explores this topic called "Surfwise". Fascinating documentary on the Paskowitz family with 9 kids who basically bum around and surf. Dad was a successful medical doctor who chucked it all to take his family on the road in a 24 ft camper (that's a caravan for our UK friends) to surf. They pretty much had no money, but lots of interesting experiences.

Dad continued to embrace the anti-money philosophy until his death at about age 90. He sought money as needed but he eschewed the material world. The now adult middle aged kids all seem to highly value family and quality of life. Interestingly, most of them seem to be aware of the necessity of sufficient money to meet their basic needs as important to eliminating stress. If you are worried about meeting your necessities, you have low quality of life.

The kids also failed to learn how modern society works regarding money and general legal structures. Society is organized around our labors, contracts, and consumerism. They didn't learn until adult failures taught them money is necessary.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Yeswecan said:


> My W and I have items that we use year after year. Items that initial cost is miniscule compared to the years of enjoyment to come. Concerning cars, I will drive them into the ground. My W will do the same. She hangs onto them as long as she can. More so because the vehicle is familiar to her. I once took her to see a top of the line Toyota 4Runner. Not impressed. Loves her 11 year old Mercury SUV. So be it!
> 
> If there is anything my folks did not face when I was a kid is cell phone, internet and paying for cable TV. The amount I spend monthly is just outlandish. Heck, I was the rabbit ears 3 channel black and white TV generation.


When I look at new cars.. all I see is a waste of money.. we've never spent more than $5,000 on a Vehicle and that one had a Plow with it... I get more excited over feeling I got a steal deal.....feeling I have $$ left over to do other things with it... I would feel sick to my stomach to sock anything close to even a reduced sticker price on a new vehicle....I'd feel like we were working for nothing just to pay for it.. .. 

I guess it's all in what is important to people.. my husband works with a man who's always buying new trucks, the latest greatest cell phone that came out... he's ready to retire, still hasn't paid his house off... meanwhile his wife & him argue a lot over these things... she is more interested in going on trips, visiting parts of the world.. while he's more interested in switching up his Trucks, he seems to get bored with his new purchases and needs a change...meanwhile he complains how she wants to whisk him off on a Paris vacation.... 

We are surely all wired differently in what "satisfies", what we call "Living"... some put all their money into their house, and may not care about vacationing... some have beautiful new cars but their house is falling down, in order to afford their cars... some spend the bulk on leisure and hope they can afford the rest ....some seem like they are living the high life but are drowning in debt to do it....

My mindset has always been.. #1 ...our vehicles must be reliable, to get from point A to point B (Shiny new means nothing) so we keep our jobs ... so we can afford our dreams (home ownership, stability, being able to afford the necessities -bills, taxes, insurances, car upkeep, house upkeep, food, clothes, college expenses)... meanwhile savings set aside so when we want to go somewhere, desire something / anything....the money is there... 

We got Magic Jack for our home phone (averages $35 a year)..... I have that paid up for 5 yrs in advance.. .. I've been using Tracfone forever...averages $7 a month -this prepaid a year ahead....none of these minutes expire, all the data rolls over too... I bought a used unlocked S7 Edge on Ebay (saving $300 off new price)...to use with my Tracfone service.... hey it's Verizon & it's there when we need it.. I'm happy! 



peacem said:


> I am a huge money nerd and keep every receipt and log everything on spreadsheets. I can tell you to the penny how much we spend on groceries/petrol/clothes/toiletries etc each month because I average it all out so I can budget accordingly. I literally know where every penny goes.
> 
> Yes, my family roll their eyes and mock me for this. But being financial aware has meant when the 'tough' times came, we were prepared.


 This sounds like it could be somewhat time consuming... I felt this way when I'd clip coupons, organize them in a box, then sit there with the local ads every week... the savings made me smile ...but it ate so much time every week to do this.. felt like a chore sometimes... 

One thing I've never done is write up a budget.. just always had these "round about" figures in my head... it's like an alarm if you even suspect more is going *out* than is coming *in..* that's a HUGE NO NO NO ! In our early marriage I'd go to the library & bring home books on how to manage money, bought the Tightwad gazette ...You learn how all life insurances are a rip off except for TERM when you are young.. and while you age.. you should be accumulating -where one doesn't need those policies...

I feel we've always enjoyed what others do...I would just say not on a "1st class" basis .... we'd still take the kids to Disney but not on a plane and not staying on their property... but we'd enjoy the parks and all it has to offer - the thrills and excitement just like any other family....stuff like that... 



> When my son was diagnosed with a disability and increasingly became a 2 man job, my H was able to cut his hours to term time only so we can care for him together in the holidays, and also have time for each other (our marriage) when he is at school. So, although I am not super thrifty to the point of not enjoying our money (not by any means) the years of being aware of where each penny is going has meant that we have been able to make good budgets and sensible investments. Even when we were fairly poor, we never lived by the seat of our pants.


 Having some savings set aside...(I like to call it a "torrential downfall" over a "rainy day")... so you have what you need for the unforeseen... when a crisis shows up at our door (a lay off, sickness, etc)...as they inevitably hit us all...it's stressful enough sometimes... there is at least some comfort knowing this part is covered.. we'll be OK.. we can ride this out for such & such a time ...like your husband taking this time off work when your family needed it...


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