# Fiance is defensive, throws tantrums (Long)



## Coldfeet (Feb 14, 2012)

I'm not really sure where to start, I'm just completely overwhelmed.

FI and I got engaged on NYE. A couple of weeks later I bought a book on marriage by the same guy who wrote the 5 Love Languages. FI flipped out, we got in a huge fight. He said he already did everything and that book would just say he wasn't doing enough and it was BS. He couldn't even tell me the title of the book much less what it was about, so how could he know that's what the book was going to say? I finally got it out of him that his two ex wives "read the books". This was news to me b/c according to him, they both "just shut down". If they were reading books to try to improve the marriage, how is that shutting down? His reaction gave me pause and really confused me. 

This past weekend, I started trying to talk to him about his daughter. I wanted to know what his expectations were for me once we were married and I was her stepmom and also what his thoughts were on financial issues surrounding her. I don't have any kids and I'm very nervous about this aspect of being married to him. Instead of an open discussion, he was very hostile and defensive and he wanted to know "what my motive was". I told him no motive, I was just nervous and basically wanted to know what to expect. Huge fight ensued. 

In the same fight, the same old issue came up - he says he never gets anything he wants and I do nothing for him. He is and has been upset that we are not going to NOLA for Mardi Gras and feels that I didn't work hard enough to make it happen for him. I asked him what I could have done differently to make him feel like I had put in an effort and I got no real answer. I had looked at flights for days back in Oct, Dec and Jan. I sent him flights prices and schedules at least a couple of times to see what he thought. He never committed and finally said that we needed to save money for the wedding and HM and so we shouldn't go. I encouraged him several times that we could make it work if he really wanted to go. But in the end I dropped it because its not like I can afford to front the trip myself and he wouldn't commit to anything. I'm not sure what else I really could have done. This happens with almost everything he wants to do, including his own hobbies which I do not know how to plan (skiing, hiking, etc). He puts it out there then expects me to make it happen, then when I can't (usually due to finances), he says "he gets nothing he wants and I get everything and I do nothing for him". And that's when the tantrums started, the throwing things, screaming at me, driving irrationally, etc. 

So this morning he got up at 4:30, and peed with the door open and flushed the toilet. It woke me up and when he came back to bed he started trying to rub on my back and hold my hand and I reciprocated. When he finally went for my face, I said in a playful way "I couldn't help but notice you didn't wash your hands" b/c really, I didn't want his urine on my face and couldn't think of a nicer way to say it. He FLIPPED out on me, jumped out of bed, stormed off to the shower. I got up after him and he was PISSED. I mean, he was slamming doors and throwing the iron, throwing magazines across the room, stomping through the house. And finally he came to the bathroom where I"m getting ready and he screamed at me "You embarass me and you won't even apologize?!?!" I was kind of in shock and didn't say anything and he stomped off and continued his tantrum.

I decided pretty quickly that I wanted to drive myself to work instead of carpooling w him b/c I didn't want to take the screaming and yelling on the way to work. So I told him I was going to try to get into the dr. and so would drive myself today. This fueled the fire I guess. I went to warm up the car and I could hear him screaming at the top of his lungs. I went in to get my stuff and he yelled at me "thanks a lot! Have a great f'ing day" I just said "you too" quietly and tried to get out of the house as fast as possible as he was still screaming as I closed the door. As I was pulling out of the drive way, he came running out of the door screaming and arms flying, yelling I better get back there. I just kept going. I just did not want to deal with it today. I'm worn out and I'm disappointed that this happed on V-day. He called me several times, which I did not answer, so I emailed his iphone and told him he was acting crazy and to please call me when he calmed down. He sent me an email and some incoherent IMs saying I better call him back or come back or he was done. I stuck to my guns and asked him to call me when he calmed down. 

This is pretty much par for the course with him. He flips out over small things like this and his tantrums scare the living daylights out of me. He's never hit me, but I'm afraid that in his irrational rage, someday he might. He knows I"m scared of him when he gets like that, yet never apologizes for doing it, never apologizes for anything really, and says he'll work on it, but 2 years later, its still going on. I am having major reservations. 

Any thoughts or suggestions?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

IF you want 30-40 more years of this, then you should marry him.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

So why did you get engaged? It's not like this behavior started on January 1, right?

Until you can have conversations about kinda difficult topics without screaming matches, your marriage is in for a rough ride. You'll start avoiding anything remotely confrontational, and just let the frustrations and resentments build. He'll continue to explode on a regular basis and never appreciate the positive aspects of your relationship and what he's doing wrong. Of course, we're only seeing your side of the story, but...

Have you ever found out why his previous marriages failed? And perhaps not HIS side of the story, but his ex's? Because I'm seeing some likely reasons just from your initial post. And if he hasn't dealt with his issues from the past, he's just brought them along with him. How old are the two of you?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coldfeet (Feb 14, 2012)

PBear - I totally agree. I have been really making an effort to have those tough discussions but he gets really defensive. I try all those listening techniques I've learned - reflective listening ("so what I'm hearing you say is...") and asking him questions about why he feels like he feels. Its just not working. I really don't know what else to do, which is why I'm here.  

As for why we got engaged...when its good its really good, when its bad its really bad. The good times usually outweigh the bad.

I've got his side on the divorces...one ex just shut down and didn't want to engage with him anymore and the other went crazy (literally, had to be committed). I don't know his exes' views, but I can imagine if the one shut down why she did, I'm exhausted. We are 30 and 40.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Coldfeet said:


> This is pretty much par for the course with him. He flips out over small things like this and *his tantrums scare the living daylights out of me*. He's never hit me, but* I'm afraid *that in his irrational rage, someday he might. *He knows I"m scared of him *when he gets like that, *yet never apologizes *for doing it, *never apologizes for anything really*, and says he'll work on it, but *2 years later, its still going on*. I am having major reservations.


I hope you see all the major red flags.

You are engaged to a child who is due to go off at any minute.

Why would you want to marry someone you are afraid of?

Your guy has a lot of issues. As someone who was married to a guy like this who was very emotionally abusive, I will tell you: get out now. 2 years is too long to be dealing with this bullsh!t. It gets worse over time. 

Like you said, he never apologizes and eventhough he knows he hurts you, he doesn't care.

You can expect more of this if you stay with him...only it will get worse. 

Also, what's the back story on his ex-wives? Tell us. Why does he say the one wife shut down? What does that mean? Have you ever confirmed his second wife went "crazy?" Where is she now? Have you met any of his ex-wives? What is his daughter like? Did he blame the divorces on his ex-wives? Does he ever admit to any wrongdoing/flaws? Do tell.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Your techniques aren't working because you're dealing with a 40 year old child throwing a temper tantrum. 

And as you mention, I think you can clearly see what the problem was in his previous marriages... 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coldfeet (Feb 14, 2012)

Jellybeans - yes, I definitely see some red flags here. That is exactly what I feel like sometimes, that he is a 40 year old 5 year old. 

This is kind of new territory for me, I was with the same guy for pretty much all of my late teens and twenties and he was extremely passive. I guess I'm wondering if this is normal behavior for guys, the tantrums. 

Backstory on the ex wives - First wife married 7 years, he says she disengaged and started doing her own thing, wasnt into anything he was into (sports, hobbies, etc) and they quit having sex, got worse after the baby was born so he left. We get along, not BFF, but we'll chit chat when we drop his daughter off/pick her up. She likes me because 2nd wife was a nut (see below). 
Second wife married 5 years and she went crazy, psychosis I believe. She kicked him out, lot of crazy stuff went down, her sister had her committed, when she got out, they tried to work things out but couldn't make it work, too many hurt feelings and distrust. 
He says his wrongdoing was that he was selfish and maybe wanted too much.


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## RDL (Feb 10, 2012)

Hello, 

The situation you described is fairly clearly indicative of the need for a psychologist on his part. 

One of the issues coming out is hypersensitivity and inability to control his temper. It is common in some men to be defensive on getting marriage advice because they feel it questions their skills in building a marriage. His reaction however is far beyond normal and even more so for the washing of hands situation. 

In your case I would strongly suggest you at least postpone any commitment to him. Even if he seeks help which most men have trouble doing, there is no guarantee of fast results. Also it is quite common for the behavior to escalate when married because in some situations men feel entitled to certain services once married. 

It may hurt you emotionally but I urge caution to be the word of the day. You need to extract yourself from that situation. Do not continue living in the same location, dealing with anger issues is not your responsibility and his behavior is not your fault neither are you trained to help him, a psychologist is.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

The 'tantrums' you call them is abuse. Next he'll be throwing the iron at you or worse.

My best friend just got out of an abusive relationship after 10 years. He would yell, be cruel, be lovely, throw things, snap over nothing, drive like a maniac when angry and push her out of the car, then eventually it escalated to one on one contact.

When you get in too deep to an abusive relationship, it's incredibly difficult to try and get out. Your fiancee is abusing you. People get angry yes, but he has sure signs of snapping quick, throwing things and carrying on. No doubt like you said when it's good, it's great. That's always the curse. That's why you convince yourself you can put up with the rest.

Don't. Don't let anybody treat you like this. You should always feel safe with your partner. Don't tolerate behaviour you know is wrong. And one really important thing you need to remember, always - is that it's not your fault. No matter what he says. His reactions are his decisions. Not everybody behaves that way.

I'm not a big believer in jumping on these forums and giving advice to anybody to leave their marriage or partnership - but in this case, I implore you to please seriously think about how you want to live the rest of your life. You have the red flags there now and it's not too late.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

There are not red flags there is one enormous Red Flag and it says "Get the F our while you can" across it. 

Being engaged is a test and he is failing it. His behavior is unacceptable in the worst of circumstances.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

RClawson said:


> There are not red flags there is one enormous Red Flag and it says "Get the F our while you can" across it.
> 
> His behavior is unacceptable in the worst of circumstances.


I agree. 100%.

And my bet is his tantrums/abuse played a part in his divorces. 

Let me ask you: how would he react if you treated him as he does you? If you had tantrums/yelling fits/told him to F-off, threw things around/at him?/Told him he embarasses you? Refused to apologize or acknowledge his hurt?

How would he react if you did this:

_I mean, he was slamming doors and throwing the iron, throwing magazines across the room, stomping through the house. And finally he came to the bathroom where I"m getting ready and he screamed at me "You embarass me and you won't even apologize?!?!" I was kind of in shock and didn't say anything and he stomped off and continued his tantrum._

????

You already know the answer. Marrying this guy would be a very poor decision on your part. He's bad news. Staying in a relationship with this guy is a mistake.


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## Voiceofreason (Mar 6, 2011)

Get......out.....now....

You will not change him...he is telling you who he is...please listen to him...


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## Why Not Be Happy? (Apr 16, 2010)

Get out now! You can do better!


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## Coldfeet (Feb 14, 2012)

Thank you all for your replies. You've definitely given me some things to think about. I went home and packed a bag at lunch and will be staying in a hotel for tonight if not the next couple of days. 

I talked to him further and told him that I understand if he felt embarassed (that his unwashed hands kind of skeeved me out), but there was no reason for lashing out at me or raging like that. He said that he raged and lashed out because I didn't have consideration for his feelings and his intent of holding me this morning, and also that his anger was allowable under his rights as a human being, he didnt break anything or hurt anyone and he's tired of being made to feel bad. Ugh.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Coldfeet said:


> Thank you all for your replies. You've definitely given me some things to think about. I went home and packed a bag at lunch and will be staying in a hotel for tonight if not the next couple of days.
> 
> I talked to him further and told him that I understand if he felt embarassed (that his unwashed hands kind of skeeved me out), but there was no reason for lashing out at me or raging like that. He said that he raged and lashed out because I didn't have consideration for his feelings and his intent of holding me this morning, and also that his anger was allowable under his rights as a human being, he didnt break anything or hurt anyone and he's tired of being made to feel bad. Ugh.


And there's your problem in a nutshell... He thinks his response was perfectly fine and acceptable. Until he realizes that it's not acceptable, there's no reason for him to even attempt to change.

C


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## Voiceofreason (Mar 6, 2011)

> Until he realizes that it's not acceptable, there's no reason for him to even attempt to change.


He is 40 years old...he will not change...he is who he is...he will always be this way and always treat you this way and always react to his disappointents this way and always find a way to blame you--with anger--for all of his problems and always overreact and punish you when you make a mistake...

I will repeat: Get....out....now...


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

PBear said:


> You'll start avoiding anything remotely confrontational, and just let the frustrations and resentments build. He'll continue to explode on a regular basis and never appreciate the positive aspects of your relationship and what he's doing wrong.


:iagree:

You could have been posting about my SO, he does the same gross exaggeration of perceived slights.

A few weeks ago he went off on a rant in an email about me being insensitive and making his anxiety worse before a trip, and I forwarded it to a close friend. Her only reply was "Psycho!!"

Get. Out. Now. (I'm on my way there)


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## Coldfeet (Feb 14, 2012)

Its funny, if someone else was posting this problem, I would probably reply the exact same way. Why is it you can't see the problems while you're in them and its like a lightbulb has gone off when someone else calls it? My head knows what you all are saying is 100% correct, but my heart just will not listen, though its trying. I just wish it was easier to forget the good times and turn off the feelings.


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## TwoDogs (Jul 29, 2011)

If your fella is like mine, he is very good at twisting things around and blaming me.

Earlier today he told me (again) that I need help for my "issues". As far as I'm concerned, the only issue I have is tolerating his unacceptable behaviour for far too long!


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Coldfeet said:


> Its funny, if someone else was posting this problem, I would probably reply the exact same way. Why is it you can't see the problems while you're in them and its like a lightbulb has gone off when someone else calls it? My head knows what you all are saying is 100% correct, but my heart just will not listen, though its trying. I just wish it was easier to forget the good times and turn off the feelings.


Its because you are a decent human being and emotionally and mentally healthy. Unfortunately, you might be suffering from what is called "Stockholm syndrome" where you actually start sympathizing with the abuser. 

Let me ask you some questions and I'll give you some insights that might help you decide on your next move.


1. Does he throw nasty tantrums, watch you get upset and defensive and push on like he just found a "weakness"? Like an abusive heat seeking missile? 

2. After the tantrum/abuse, does he several hours or days later act like nothing happened and even act sweet to you while your first thought is "WTF? does he not remember what just happened 15 mins ago"? 

3. Does he *not* have any significant long term friendships with other males IE Best friend and/or siblings?

4. Does he call his family members nasty names? 

5. Does the thought of him touching you make you angry or disgusted? 

If you answer yes to any of these questions leave this bum and mail him the engagement ring. Also consider getting a temporary restraining order. 

My exw was/is like this. Years of verbal and finally physical abuse took its mental and physical toll on me. I tried MC, IC and even considered suicide as a way out. Yes I was that weakened. I was ashamed to admit it at the time but now I use it as template to make the right choices next time around. 

So why do you think you are staying with him? Love? obligation?
In my case my greatest personality trait and ironically the path to personal destruction was my*hope* and *optimism* that things would get better. Honey, hope and optimism are powerful tools to get couples though tough times. Unfortunately people like your hopefully STBX use this against you and take advantage of it. 

Ultimately you need to make a decision that benefits you in the long run because trust me people like him do not change. Do not squander you life away on such a miserable human being. *YOU* are unique, special and worth more than that. Speak these words and believe it girl and Happy Valentines Day!


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Great post above... 

I was gonna ask that too... what's his relationship like with his mother/father/family/friends? 

Does he treat people as he does you?

Hwo does he act under pressure?In public, if he's angry/upset about something, how he does react? Is he kind to waitstaff/servers??


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Coldfeet said:


> I talked to him further and told him that I understand if he felt embarassed (that his unwashed hands kind of skeeved me out), but there was no reason for lashing out at me or raging like that.* He said that he raged and lashed out because I *didn't have consideration for his feelings and his intent of holding me this morning, and also that* his anger was allowable under his rights as a human being*, he didnt break anything or hurt anyone and he's tired of being made to feel bad. Ugh.


Whoop. There it is. Blaming you for what HE did is a classic hallmark sign of an abuser.

ZERO accountability or responsiblity for one's actions... same
thing. Note that not once did he apologize to you or tell you he empathized with YOUR feelings (like how you did for him). It's all about him.

RUN, FOREST, RUN.



PBear said:


> And there's your problem in a nutshell... He thinks his response was perfectly fine and acceptable. Until he realizes that it's not acceptable, there's no reason for him to even attempt to change.
> 
> C


BINGO!


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Coldfeet said:


> ... my heart just will not listen, though its trying. I just wish it was easier to forget the good times and turn off the feelings.


Believe me when I tell you this: the longer you are exposed to his irrational, abusive behavior, the less those good times will be able to erase the bad.

You have to value yourself enough to realize that unacceptable behavior is just that - unacceptable. A decent, mature man who values and loves you doesn't act this way. Period. So what if there are good times? They don't justify his bad behavior.

This is not a matter of the heart, it's a matter of old-fashioned common sense. This guy is bad news. You are dying of thirst, and those "good times" are nothing more than sips of water that keep your thrist quenched just enough to endure his insane tantrums. 

How about forgetting about your heart for a minute, standing back from this train wreck, and seeing it for what it is.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Prodigal said:


> This is not a matter of the heart, it's a matter of old-fashioned common sense. This guy is bad news.


:iagree:

Coldfeet (your name is spot on) - Let me ask you something: would you treat a friend as he is treating you? 

Would he be ok with you treating him the same way he treats you?


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## Coldfeet (Feb 14, 2012)

Sanity said:


> 1. Does he throw nasty tantrums, watch you get upset and defensive and push on like he just found a "weakness"? Like an abusive heat seeking missile?
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean here. But yes, there are some pretty nasty tantrums and then it is turned on me like its my fault.
> 
> ...


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## Coldfeet (Feb 14, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Great post above...
> 
> I was gonna ask that too... what's his relationship like with his mother/father/family/friends?
> 
> ...


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## Coldfeet (Feb 14, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Coldfeet (your name is spot on) - Let me ask you something: would you treat a friend as he is treating you?
> 
> ...


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## Coldfeet (Feb 14, 2012)

TwoDogs said:


> If your fella is like mine, he is very good at twisting things around and blaming me.
> 
> Earlier today he told me (again) that I need help for my "issues". As far as I'm concerned, the only issue I have is tolerating his unacceptable behaviour for far too long!
> 
> I'm pretty sure we are with the same man. It can be maddening. :-(


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Coldfeet said:


> Does he treat people as he does you?
> 
> *I don't think he probably gets angry with other people like he gets angry with me, no. But everyone seems to love him. I've never heard anyone say a bad thing about him. *


I'm not surprised. Most abusers would never treat anyone the way they treat their SO/emotional punching bag. 

That's because they know they could never get away with it. 

They keep up a facade for the world around them. Most abusers are incredibly charming and everyone just loves them to teeny tiny pieces. That's because they see the mask, not what's underneath. 



Coldfeet said:


> What is most frustrating is I really did an inventory of myself after my own divorce and tried to work through some issues. One being that I was really demanding of my exH and could be a real b!tch to him when he didn't live up to my expectations. Now, though, I really have to put myself in check to make sure I am being realistic and accepting of what he can give. I have been a lot more satisfied being thankful for what I have rather than being demanding like I used to be. But it seems that I've done a 180 here and am ok with the bad as long as there is some good.


I can understand how you are working on yourself and reflecting and those are all good things but you didn't answer my questions:

Would you treat a friend as he is treating you? 

Would he be ok with you treating him the same way he treats you?


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Well Coldfeet. Its time you made some long term decisions here. While here at TAM we like to see happy marriages, we hate seeing people getting into bad situations when all the red flags are waving in front of you and on fire. 

Not to get all religious on you but there is a short story entitled "God Will Save Me" that perhaps can give you some inspiration or direction. 

God Will Save Me

In this story a really bad storm rolls in and everybody in the town is ordered to evacuate. The man being a faithful decides to stay and tells people who are trying to help him that he believes God will save him. They send a car, a boat and finally a helicopter but the man refuses the help and ends up drowning. Once in heaven he questions God and asks why he didn't save him and God Replies "Hey, I sent you a car, boat and a helicopter!"

The reason I use this story is that many times our family, your friends (even on TAM) and your gut instinct is sending you "cars, boats, helicopters, heck even the entire army to save you from the storm (abuser). We stay because we are hopeful things will get better with time and that the flood waters (abuse, unhappiness) will go away and not sweep you up. 

Please heed the warnings and listen to your better jugdement. Like I said before, YOU are unique and special along with everybody else on this planet and deserve a shot at living a happy life. Get on that boat and paddle away!


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Coldfeet said:


> Its funny, if someone else was posting this problem, I would probably reply the exact same way. Why is it you can't see the problems while you're in them and its like a lightbulb has gone off when someone else calls it? My head knows what you all are saying is 100% correct, but my heart just will not listen, though its trying. I just wish it was easier to forget the good times and turn off the feelings.


It will only get worse if you get married to this man if this issue is not addressed now and with sincerity. My H used to explode on me (mental, emotional, physical, etc.). 

You need to stand your ground, stay away from him as long as you can, communicate from a safe distance that destruction of property (throwing things in the house) and angry outbursts won't be tolerated in your life. Your story saddened me. 

I don't know what changed my H after 4 years of marriage (only half really together at that time)... Although the last time he was physical with me, the cops came and he just about went to jail in a state far away from our home. It was a little too close for comfort for him, knowing I could destroy him with one little phrase to the cops. When we got back to our home state, changes became his goal I suspect, since that incident in July, he's had a few angry outbursts, but nothing like it was... He is still working hard at that.

I told you that to tell you this. I am a firm believer in someone changing, I've witnessed with my H. But it doesn't happen when the angry person has no consequences for their actions, and your fiance is seeing some consequences (you staying away for a night, I would definitely make it a few nights if possible), I would take it a step further and call off the engagement until he addresses his anger problem with a professional. If you really want to be with this man, please please please push that he take care of this problem first. It will drive you to not want to be intimate with him eventually (resentment will build), he will use this anger to control you as his wife.

He doesn't sound like the type to agree to counseling, I could be wrong, but if he doesn't agree to it, you have your answer. If he doesn't see a problem with his anger, and further blames you or your actions, you have a long road ahead of you if he thinks it's okay. 

Sorry for the ramble, but I imagine you love him and do want to marry him... You can... But take this opportunity to urge him to get help and and at least get him to acknowledge his anger problem.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Coldfeet, the behaviors you describe -- temper tantrums, verbal abuse, controlling nature, push-away and pull-back cycle, black-white thinking, and lack of impulse control -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. 

Only a professional can determine whether your fiance's BPD traits are so strong as to meet 100% of the diagnostic threshold for having the full blown disorder. This does not imply, however, that you cannot spot strong occurrences of those traits in a man you've been dating for 2 years. Spotting the red flags is not difficult. There is nothing subtle about traits such as verbal abuse, tantrums, and emotional immaturity.


Coldfeet said:


> He flips out over small things like this and his tantrums scare the living daylights out of me.


If your fiance is a BPDer (i.e., has moderate to strong BPD traits), this "flipping out" occurs because he has been carrying enormous anger and hurt inside since early childhood. Because the anger is always there right under the skin, you don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to say or do some minor thing to TRIGGER it. And, because you never know what will set him off, you are always walking on eggshells.


> He says "he gets _*nothing*_ he wants and I get _*everything*_ and I do _*nothing*_ for him".


This behavior is called "black-white thinking" and it is a hallmark of folks having strong BPD traits. A BPDer categorizes everyone (including himself) as "with me" or "against me" -- i.e., as "all good" or "all bad." Because there is no middle or gray area, he will re-categorize someone from one polar extreme to the other -- in just ten seconds -- based only on a minor infraction, tone of voice, or idle statement. 

This all-or-nothing thinking also will be apparent -- as you've already seen -- in his frequent use of extreme expressions like "I _always_..." and "you _never_...." BPDers have this distorted perception of other people because they are extremely uncomfortable with ambiguities and experiencing strong mixed feelings. A BPDer is very intolerant, for example, with the idea that someone is essentially a good person who occasionally does or says bad things. 

This intolerance arises, according to current theory, because the BPDer failed to develop a stable, coherent self image when he was a young child. That is, he never learned to think of himself as being a basically good kid who nonetheless occasionally does bad things. The resulting fragile ego is the reason a BPDer is loath to accept blame for anything.


> He is nice to waitstaff/servers and pretty much everyone around him. ... I don't think he gets angry with other people like he gets angry with me, no. ...everyone seems to love him.


Because the vast majority of BPDers are high functioning, most of them interact very well with business associates, casual friends, and complete strangers. None of those people pose a threat to a BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. 

There is no close relationship that can be abandoned. And there is no intimacy that can trigger the frightening feeling of being engulfed by another person's personality. Lord help those people, however, if they ever make the mistake of trying to draw close to him. 

This is why a BPDer can treat strangers with kindness all day long and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love him. And this is why BPDers typically have no long term friends (unless they live a long distance away from them).


> There are some pretty nasty tantrums and then it is turned on me like its my fault.


Because a BPDer refuses to accept responsibility for his own mistakes, he thinks of himself as a perpetual victim. Your role is to validate that false self image by being "the perpetrator," i.e., the cause of his every misfortune. That's the way it will be while he is "splitting you black."

When he is "splitting you white," however, he will think of you as his savior, i.e., as the best thing to ever have happened to him. That likely occurred for 3 to 6 months during his courtship of you because his infatuation held his two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. And it will occur again periodically when he flips from splitting you black to splitting you white again.


> The good times usually outweigh the bad.


That balance will quickly shift for the worse if he is a BPDer. The biggest shift typically occurs right after the marriage (as it did with my exW). And, as the years go by, an untreated BPDer typically becomes increasingly resentful of your failure to make him happy or fix him -- impossible tasks. 

Moreover, because he subconsciously projects his own shortcomings and mistakes onto you, he sincerely believes you are the source of that unhappiness. This is why BPDers typically walk out on their spouses after about 12 to 15 years. My exW, for example, left after 15 years.


> When its good its really good, when its bad its really bad.


BPDers behave like the little girl in the Henry Wadsworth Longfellow poem:"And when she was good, she was very very good, but when she was bad she was horrid." When a BPDer is splitting you white, he typically will exhibit a passion and purity of expressions that otherwise is only seen in young children. 

On top of that, he will idealize you. It will be the most intense connection you've ever had with another adult. The result is an intoxicating, wonderful experience that can only be compared to being on a drug like cocaine or heroine. And the withdrawal periods, i.e., the horrid times when he is splitting you black, can be as painful as withdrawal from those same drugs.


> One ex just shut down and didn't want to engage with him anymore and the other went crazy (literally, had to be committed).


Well, those two outcomes are not surprising. Living with a BPDer is very disorienting and confusing because an unstable man can flip on a dime between loving and hating you -- and he will sincerely believe the outrageous rationalizations he gives for his current feelings. This is why a substantial share of the partners and spouses feel like they are going crazy. Indeed, of the ten personality disorders, BPD is the ONLY ONE that is notorious for making the partners feel like they may be losing their minds. 

If you had been living with a narcissist or sociopath, for example, you would have felt abused and miserable -- but you wouldn't have that terrible feeling of confusion and disorientation. On top of that, you eventually will have the feeling that you have lost not only your loved one but also lost YOURSELF. This occurs because, after walking on eggshells for years, you will have stopped behaving like your "old self" for so long that you will start forgetting who it is you were. This is why the #1 best-selling BPD book (targeted to the partners) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells._


> That is exactly what I feel like sometimes, that he is a 40 year old 5 year old.


If he is a BPDer, it would be more accurate to say "like a 3 or 4 year old." That is the age at which damage is done to the emotional core, causing a BPDer's emotional development to freeze. This leaves him stuck with the primitive ego defenses of a young child -- e.g., projection, tantrums, denial, and black-white thinking. 

Typically, for a high functioning BPDer, the traits are not very noticeable outwardly until the mid-teens, at which time he is trying to establish LTRs outside the family. If your fiance is a BPDer, he almost certainly is high functioning or you would not have been dating him, much less planning to marry him.


> I try all those listening techniques I've learned - reflective listening ("so what I'm hearing you say is...") and asking him questions about why he feels like he feels. Its just not working.


If your fiance has strong BPD traits, his problems go far beyond a lack of communication skills. His perception of your motivations and intentions is badly distorted by his irrational, intense feelings. This is why MC usually is a total waste of time with BPDers. 

Until a BPDer undergoes years of weekly, intensive therapy in IC, it is impossible to sit down with him and have a calm, rational discussion about any important matter. Moreover, catching him in a "calm mood" won't help at all. The reason is that, with a BPDer, you are always just 10 seconds away from triggering the tremendous anger he is always carrying inside. Sadly, there are few important matters that can be discussed and resolved in 10 seconds.


> Any thoughts or suggestions?


Coldfeet, I don't know whether your fiance has most of the nine BPD traits at a strong level. I've never met the man. Yet, if he does, I am confident that you can easily spot all the red flags if you take time to read about them. Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. 

Likewise, you could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur.

I therefore suggest you read my description of these traits in Maybe's thread at My list of hell!. If that discussion rings a bell and the traits seem to describe your fiance's behavior, I would be glad to discuss them with you. I also would be happy to point you to a good book and excellent online resources. And I would encourage you to see a psychologist, on your own, to obtain a candid professional opinion. Take care, Coldfeet.


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