# I'm Shallow



## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

Well, that seems to be the verdict from my husband.

I have been trying to encourage him to be healthier (lose weight), dress nicer, and stuff and he tells me that I am materialistic.

The background is that I lost attraction for my husband a long time ago without really knowing it. I have been working on gaining it back for a couple months now. He does not know that I am not sexually attracted to him. In fact, he may be shocked to learn that...expecially since we are having more and better sex than we have had in years.

A few weeks ago I got sick of looking at his half of the closet and cleaned and organized it and had him get rid of clothes that don't fit or were ruined. I told him a tidy closet was a "sexy" closet. He looked at me like I was an alien and basically said that that made no sense.

I got a teeth whitening kit for us. I used it and he never did. I'm pretty sure he doesn't even brush his teeth every night because I always ask before sex and half the time he has to go brush cuz he hasn't.

He initially lost about 15 pounds (awesome) but has not lost anything since the first 2 weeks of trying. He eats junk often.

I mentioned that it would be a nice change if he groomed "downtown." He laughed and thought I was joking. I said I was serious and recommended a #5 attachment. LOL He hasn't tried it.

He gets more than his fair share of really bad haircuts.

The other day I asked if he had any other pants than cargo style and said that a hot pair of darkwash jeans would be sexy/turn on.

So, he thinks I should just think he is sexy for him and it should have nothing to do with outside "materialistic" things. The thing is, I think he is a hypocrite. I am slim, pretty, dress nice and am well groomed. He certainly chose me because he thought I was visually appealing.

I don't know what to do. I don't care if I am shallow....health and grooming do have an affect on sexual appeal. I just am tired of never feeling validated no matter what the topic. I am tired of wishing for something different than what is.

It actually does hurt my feelings that he thinks that looking nice for me is me being shallow/materialistic.

Men, how can I help him understand that this is important without hurting his feelings? Subtle didn't work and giving outright ideas doesn't seem to work.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Men are dogs. Each time he grooms himself the way you like, do something nice for him; kiss on the lips or something. Then eventually you can reverse the order - kiss first then he'll groom himself. Pure Skinner box behaviorist training. 

Men don't respond to nagging or verbal cues the way you think. Men don't respond to negative reinforcement. Only positive reinforcement works. 

And yes, I am the father of 3 sons. I also occasionally will deprogram dogs who are rejected as useless by their owners.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

You'd think he would get the hint with all that you tried. Maybe risky, but wondering if he needs to catch you checking out a perfect example guy at the mall or restaraunt (just the clothes part, not the manscaping part). Try to deny it, but keep up the glancing in a 'just can't help it' way. It'll get a response, but you could probably better predict if it will get the one you want.

I guess I'm shallow personified, then. I don't think I go overboard, but I couldn't stand the thought of my wife being unhappy with my lack of concern for the way I dress, or personal grooming.


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

But if he doesn't do anything than what can I positively reinforce? I guess that is where I am stumped.


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## luckyman (Apr 14, 2011)

That's sad that you are no longer sexually attracted your husband, and no I don't think you're being shallow. I believe balance is the key. I take care of my mental, emotional, physical and spiritual self. Why would I overemphasize one over the other? Anyway, it works for me. He may not know how to do what it is you are asking him to do. Most of the men I know don't have much style sensibilities (the exception being two friends that are gay). 

Let him know what you think is sexy and then buy it for him. I buy my wife's lingerie, and I let her know what I find attractive about the styles she wears....she does the same for me. I would be lost if it weren't for her input (insistence at times!). I wear my hair the way I do because she likes it that way. What do I care how I wear my hair anyway? If you're expecting him to just "get it," you may be in for a long wait. I know I need a little help from my wife, he might too.

As far as not being attracted to him...well, I would be very, very upset if my wife said that to me.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

notaname said:


> But if he doesn't do anything than what can I positively reinforce? I guess that is where I am stumped.


All Skinner boxes 'seed' the base state with a treat that's unasked. Leave non verbal subtle clues around like a magazine ad picture or a new shampoo. Don't ask him to use it, just substitute the old with the new in the shower. When he comes out, smell his new fluffy hair and croon or whatnot. I'm sure you can figure it out. 

I mean if you really are disgusted with his filthy hide, I don't know what to suggest, but you're the one who asked the question in the first place.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

Expecting your spouse to be well groomed and attractive is NOT shallow. However, you have created a parent child dynamic by asking if he brushed his teeth or nagging about what he eats. Instead of criticising your husband, try complimenting him on the weight he HAS lost. 
Let him know that you have lost attraction to him and how hard it is to be intimate with such a dirty person. That will get everything out in the open and jolt him into changing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

I did buy him my favorite cologne and I do mention how good he smells every time he wears it (that I notice).

I bought him a men's health magazine that I am pretty sure he didn't read. He did take out the bodybuilder centerfold thingy, though. LOL



> As far as not being attracted to him...well, I would be very, very upset if my wife said that to me.


Which is exactly why I have never told him and do not intend to ever tell him.

Maybe it's a lost cause. I dunno. I feel like I am making a lot of effort and changes to improve our marriage and that he is not. I wouldn't say I am miserable, but I feel like something is missing.

ETA: No, he's not filthy or dirty. I think it's more of a "let himself go" type thing.


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## MisterNiceGuy (Jan 26, 2011)

Happy wife, happy life!

One thing I've learned through this whole thing my wife and I are going through is to listen to her needs, especially around clothes and my appearance. She'll never stop telling me how I "tricked" her when we first dated because I was so well dressed and nice to her. Appearance and being a good listener are traits that all women love in men. Also, being physically fit is very important not only for my own mental outlook, but to have a happy partner. I have had to re-wire my brain and pretend I'm on a permanent "date" with my wife (or whomever comes along in the future) because that's the way it is. Your husband better listen or you will have an affair or divorce!


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

notaname said:


> I did buy him my favorite cologne and I do mention how good he smells every time he wears it (that I notice).
> 
> I bought him a men's health magazine that I am pretty sure he didn't read. He did take out the bodybuilder centerfold thingy, though. LOL
> 
> ...


Its probably not a lost cause. Some guys are never really exposed to a more attentive style of grooming and dress, and are frightened of going there. Where I live now, people tend to be very drab. Don't laugh, but I made extra cash in college being the official escort for certain sorority events, so I learned to pay attention to the way I dressed. I also worked as a bouncer in a high end club. This was a culture shock to me, because I grew up with mostly harley leather, and picked fights with guys like I later became. Over a few years, though, I've had lots of coworkers broach the topic, so I'm no longer alone in the office when I wear a fitted shirt.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

notaname said:


> I did buy him my favorite cologne and I do mention how good he smells every time he wears it (that I notice).
> 
> I bought him a men's health magazine that I am pretty sure he didn't read. He did take out the bodybuilder centerfold thingy, though. LOL
> 
> ...


So you don't want to hurt him, or make him upset. How do you think the "I want a separation" discussion will be any less painful? Just saying...

And as a guy, I don't feel you're being shallow or materialistic. I value my current partner's input on my clothes and suggestions on improving my appearance, and I try hard not to let her see me at my "worst". Of course, we're still in the honeymoon phase of our relationship, so it's natural we both make the effort. It's much easier to let things slide later, unfortunately.

C


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Ok maybe I'm off base but I think men resist it anytime we try to change them. Even little hints can be complete turnoffs and they run the other way just to prove they can. This has been my experience that is. Any and all attempts to get my dh to change have been futile.

And right now your dh is getting plenty of sex so whats his motivation to change?


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

I am a visual woman too, I get turned on by a man with a fit body, handsome looking, well groomed, well dressed. Yes, very very clean!!!
Cologne, deodorant, and after shave cream!


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

greenpearl said:


> I am a visual woman too, I get turned on by a man with a fit body, handsome looking, well groomed, well dressed. Yes, very very clean!!!
> Cologne, deodorant, and after shave cream!


This is yet another part where I'm so different. I'm not so much a visual person (oh I expect my dh to be clean but I'll slack on the rest) but he is. I'm supposed to stay fit, wear nice clothes, well groomed, but he doesn't have to. Total double standard in my house.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Go to Denny's at 4pm and ask him if he recognizes his future.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> This is yet another part where I'm so different. I'm not so much a visual person (oh I expect my dh to be clean but I'll slack on the rest) but he is. I'm supposed to stay fit, wear nice clothes, well groomed, but he doesn't have to. Total double standard in my house.




No double standards in our house! 

My husband knows it has to be fair so I will be happy!

If he wants to buy something nice, it is only fair for me to have something nice too! 

If he wants me to cook and clean, it is only fair for him to help do the dishes and laundry! 

If he wants me to look sexy for him, it is only fair for him to look sexy for me! 

Of course he wants me to work too! It is only fair this way!  (We don't have kids! If we had kids, I would have to stay at home! Then we would have a different kind of fairness! )

I think when a couple sees things in the household are fair, it is less likely that they become resentful towards each other!


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## thebobby (Apr 21, 2011)

I'm surprised that nobody has asked this yet: Is he depressed? Does he feel "down", and that is reflected in his personal hygiene?


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

I think he is perhaps very unhappy with how his life has turned out. I do not believe he is clinically depressed.


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

magnoliagal said:


> Ok maybe I'm off base but I think men resist it anytime we try to change them. Even little hints can be complete turnoffs and they run the other way just to prove they can. This has been my experience that is. Any and all attempts to get my dh to change have been futile.
> 
> And right now your dh is getting plenty of sex so whats his motivation to change?


No no no no no!!!!!

Sex should NEVER be a reward or withholding it a punishment. This is a big reason things get WAY out of balance in marriages.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

notaname


Take showers with your husband together. 

Wash him up and down by your slippery hands! 

I bet he loves that!


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

greenpearl said:


> notaname
> 
> 
> Take showers with your husband together.
> ...


Of course he does. He enjoys salt scrub on his back and hj's too.

But, I'm pretty shallow and starting to wonder when I get my needs met.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

notaname said:


> Of course he does. He enjoys salt scrub on his back and hj's too.
> 
> But, I'm pretty shallow and starting to wonder when I get my needs met.


Only compliment will help him feel good! 

When he dresses something nice, tell him right away, tell him how handsome he looks. 

When he smells nice, tell him right away, tell him how you like him this way. 

And be patient....................................

I have the habit of smelling my husband, his balls, his c**k, his breath, his neck, so he makes sure he is clean for me. He washes his c**k every time after he pees!


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

this is yet another example of a spouse who has let themselves go, no different then excessive weight gain. i agree with the poster who stated that the "mommy" syndrome may be part of it. he just isnt getting it that he needs to change.


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

The mommy thing did come up in MC. I mentioned not wanting to be his mom or something. He was extremely offended. He said I am nothing like his mom.

He really had no idea what was meant, I think.

Yesterday he asked me why I don't put his laundry away as "every woman he knows" does this for her husband. I told him because he was a grown man and I thought he could do it himself. He didn't like that answer either.

We have an expectation problem, obviously. A communication problem. 

I've tried just having no expectations, but then I couldn't figure out the reason for being married. I still struggle to understand the reason to be married many days.
It's not that he isn't a good guy. He is. But, I think if he stays the way he is I would rather be friends with him and co-parents, not lovers.


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## themrs (Oct 16, 2009)

I agree with magnoliagal and OOE and I don't think that is a contradiction. It is human nature to stay the same unless given a reason to change, however I don't think withholding sex is a good idea in a marriage.

I have been in this same situation. My husband has gained weight, goes a long time between haircuts, farts in front of me, smokes right before coming to bed without brushing his teeth. . . I could go on and on. Whenever I mentioned these things to him, he got offensive and implied just as your husband that I should be attracted to HIM and not all the external stuff. I have never come right out and said that anything he did made me less attracted to him because I didn't want to hurt his feelings. What I do say when he does something gross is "That is not sexy." If he does something I like I say, "That is sexy." Overtime, he has lessened the "not sexy" behavior and ampted up the "sexy" behavior. He's far from perfect, but at least he knows what I like.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

OOE said:


> No no no no no!!!!!
> 
> Sex should NEVER be a reward or withholding it a punishment. This is a big reason things get WAY out of balance in marriages.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would never suggest witholding sex. That's cruel. I'm just saying he has no reason to change because to him whatever he's doing is working for him. He's getting everything he wants and more. Why change? Try to see this from his point of view.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

I don't think there's anything wrong with farting and burping around your spouse. Get over it! Bodily functions may not be sexy, but they are a natural part of life. We all do such things.
Witholding sex is bad, but it is impossible to enjoy sex with a smelly person. I just couldn't do it.
Both of us have gained weight since meeting four years ago. We like each other looking so comfortable and content. In fact, my husband likes me better with weight. I think Mr.G looks hot now, but he thinks he's fat. Go figure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

His incentive to change is to stay married. But, he is not a man of action....I now realize almost 16 years later.

I kinda think he believes I will stay with him for the kids. He might be right. He might be wrong.

I'm pretty sure he thinks that all the problems are mine and that I need to just change because he is fine the way he is. In MC I would always cop to my bad behavior and own my own laziness and tendency towards dramatic language (you always, you never). I can't think of anything he really owned. He is a martyr and a victim of life and other people. He feels powerless and a lack of control over his life.


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

I just want to say that my husband showers every day. He isn't dirty. I'm having issues with the lack of attention to detail and weight gain. I also am disappointed that any idea I have for something for him to wear or do is met with the answer that I am materialistic and basically need to just get over myself...or just not doing it.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

OP

I'm with you. As much as we love to complain about the inner child, it's the outer adult we have to interact with and look at. It's not shallow it's normal.

Did you ever meet someone and the only thing you can think of is "Wash your damn hair you slattern!"?


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Did you ever meet someone and the only thing you can think of is "Wash your damn hair you *slattern*!"?



I never knew they encouraged a deep vocabulary in Redneckistan.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Go to Denny's at 4pm and ask him if he recognizes his future.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Dog - you crack me up - seriously!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nota,
If that list makes you shallow than I am just a giant sheet of biomass - one cell thick, that God has formed into a humanoid shape through a divine act of biological origami. 





notaname said:


> I just want to say that my husband showers every day. He isn't dirty. I'm having issues with the lack of attention to detail and weight gain. I also am disappointed that any idea I have for something for him to wear or do is met with the answer that I am materialistic and basically need to just get over myself...or just not doing it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I've read a few of your posts.

If he were a confident male "man of action", what would have happened to him the last 12-15 years or so?



notaname said:


> His incentive to change is to stay married. But, he is not a man of action....I now realize almost 16 years later.
> 
> I kinda think he believes I will stay with him for the kids. He might be right. He might be wrong.
> 
> I'm pretty sure he thinks that all the problems are mine and that I need to just change because he is fine the way he is. In MC I would always cop to my bad behavior and own my own laziness and tendency towards dramatic language (you always, you never). I can't think of anything he really owned. He is a martyr and a victim of life and other people. He feels powerless and a lack of control over his life.


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

Conrad said:


> I've read a few of your posts.
> 
> If he were a confident male "man of action", what would have happened to him the last 12-15 years or so?


You mean how would his life have been different?


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## bunnybear (Jan 13, 2011)

I don't think u're shallow. I always take care of myself esp. my appearance and I want my hubby to do the same so I help him pick clothes to buy,etc and he likes it. He even always ask me my opinion which is better to wear before heading out. He looks better now than when I met him . We both agree that we should always attract each other. I tell him straight up when I don't like something and he respects that.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

notaname said:


> You mean how would his life have been different?


I read you as having a dominant personality. It takes a special man to retain/regather his stones when locked in a power struggle with his spouse.


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

Conrad said:


> I read you as having a dominant personality. It takes a special man to retain/regather his stones when locked in a power struggle with his spouse.


Yes, I do have a more dominant personality. 
There never has been a power struggle, though. Not that I am aware of. Except now I am struggling with the desire to have him take control of his own life.

I purposefully married a nice guy because I was trying to avoid marrying my father. I knew I was giving up the protector trait which always did make me a bit sad. I wasn't able to see (at age 18) that I was also giving up the provider trait. If I had realized that I wouldn't have stopped college to have babies all those years ago.

My husband has gotten treated poorly by many people and I have always encouraged him to stand up for himself and that we teach people how to treat us. So, this has always been his personality and isn't necessarily something I ****-tested him into. 

He had a dream. I threw myself behind that dream and made it mine. Well, now that dream has failed and my husband has been rendered unable to make a single choice since. He asks me, my mom, my dad, his mom, dad, brothers, strangers, coworkers, etc what he should do. It makes me very sad and it puzzles those closest to us. Even when it appears he has decided on something a week later he is asking again if it is what he should do.

Anyway, I don't know. We always thought we had a rather egalitarian relationship. His brothers called him ***** whipped from the moment we got married. The females in my family have apparently told him to "man-up" before in regards to the employment situation. I guess other people saw that he lacked alpha traits. We have both always been offended by these comments.

 blah, blah, blah, I don't know anymore. There is much more that could be written, but I don't want to write a novel.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If I read you correctly, there was no need for a power struggle, as he unconditionally surrendered from the git-go.

What you're asking from him now is a self-improvement/transformative project. Magnoliagal has an excellent thread on something very similar. Her thread is also current.


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

Conrad said:


> If I read you correctly, there was no need for a power struggle, as he unconditionally surrendered from the git-go.
> 
> What you're asking from him now is a self-improvement/transformative project. Magnoliagal has an excellent thread on something very similar. Her thread is also current.


I think that is a correct evaluation. I just saw the other thread and read through it with great interest. It has some great stuff in it. :smthumbup:

I guess I am in a bit of a quandry because I want him to self improve because he wants to not because I controlled him into it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

notaname said:


> I think that is a correct evaluation. I just saw the other thread and read through it with great interest. It has some great stuff in it. :smthumbup:
> 
> I guess I am in a bit of a quandry because I want him to self improve because he wants to not because I controlled him into it.


From my personal story, I will tell you that periods where career issues nosedive robs a man of something.

Sounds like he's had some of that as well.

It may be the right place to begin.

Have you ever really "heard" him on that subject?


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

Well, I've heard what he has said about not trusting himself anymore because of it. He says he feels like goals are pointless since his one goal didn't pan out. He feels like a failure as a provider.

I know he feels I don't support him in that failed profession which it true...I did wholeheartedly for almost 10 years and I no longer have it in me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

notaname said:


> Well, I've heard what he has said about not trusting himself anymore because of it. He says he feels like goals are pointless since his one goal didn't pan out. He feels like a failure as a provider.
> 
> I know he feels I don't support him in that failed profession which it true...I did wholeheartedly for almost 10 years and I no longer have it in me.


Might be worth finding something new together.

See my thread "Working Together" for an idea of what it can do.


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Might be worth finding something new together.
> 
> See my thread "Working Together" for an idea of what it can do.


I'm gonna have to mull that over. I'm very jaded on self-employment. He has secured employment 4 days a week and still works at his business the other day and some evenings.
I work from home and am working towards something that I would love to do that could probably be done from home, mostly. 

But, yeah, I need to think creative.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

notaname said:


> I'm gonna have to mull that over. I'm very jaded on self-employment. He has secured employment 4 days a week and still works at his business the other day and some evenings.
> I work from home and am working towards something that I would love to do that could probably be done from home, mostly.
> 
> But, yeah, I need to think creative.


It depends on what you want.

If he starts feeling better about his work life, many doors potentially open.


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

Sometimes I wish I could just be happy with my partner the way he is. But I'm just not. I'm not happy with myself the way I am either. I've pretty much never been happy with myself. I'm a bit of a perfectionist...always striving to be better, kinda into self-improvement.

How can I make myself attracted to him when I'm just not?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

notaname said:


> Sometimes I wish I could just be happy with my partner the way he is. But I'm just not. I'm not happy with myself the way I am either. I've pretty much never been happy with myself. I'm a bit of a perfectionist...always striving to be better, kinda into self-improvement.
> 
> How can I make myself attracted to him when I'm just not?


Would he be more attractive if he showed a spark and zest for life?

Sounds like he's pretty beaten down.


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