# To lurking Waywards



## Rookie4

I would like to personally invite any wayward spouses, who might be lurking here on TAM, to post your stories and see if we can help you. There are a number of posters who will do their best to answer your questions and give you the best advice they have. Of course , there are also those who will attempt to berate and abuse you, but I feel that there are enough compassionate posters to , in part, shield you from the haters and abusers. TAM is a very worthwhile website, and can be a positive force in marriage reconciliation.


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## larry.gray

I'd also add: You do not have to take abuse.

So often a betrayed spouse doesn't get remorse from their own spouse, and will lash out at a remorseful wayward here. Hit the report button and they will be dealt with.


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## xakulax

I would also add if you feel any advice you are getting is not helpful to your situation you should feel free to ask that poster to stop posting in your thread


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## tonedef

I was a wayward in my last marriage and ended up marrying him. I found this site while looking for help because of marital problems (go figure). Everything is fine now but I will say this site has opened my eyes to the hurt I caused in my last marriage. Only thing I do not get is how waywards are bad parents? I think it is selfish but I never neglected my kids and my ex and I coparent great. Hope this isn't considered thread jacking, and I guess I don't need advice (or do I?) but I will say I have learned my lesson and have way better boundaries now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lenzi

Rookie4 said:


> Of course , there are also those who will attempt to berate and abuse you, but I feel that there are enough compassionate posters to , in part, shield you from the haters and abusers.


That's like saying "I'm a lion tamer and I'd like to invite you into this cage filled with hungry lions. I've got my whip and I've got this stool that I can turn backwards to help shield you from the big cats so c'mon inside!"


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## Turin74

1st of all, please be assured that this is not a personal attack. In fact I have a lot of respect for ws' who accept the pain of posting here (while obviously not condoning unremorseful). 

Answering your question - children have best childhood in an environment of stable marriage. If one of the parents creates, (s)he destabilises the marriage for the sake of his/her selfish needs, depriving the child from that environment. Therefore (s)he IS a bad parent even if kids are not neglected (fed, educated, etc). 

Once again, not attacking nor accusing you, please consider this response as abstract. 



tonedef said:


> I was a wayward in my last marriage and ended up marrying him. I found this site while looking for help because of marital problems (go figure). Everything is fine now but I will say this site has opened my eyes to the hurt I caused in my last marriage. Only thing I do not get is how waywards are bad parents? I think it is selfish but I never neglected my kids and my ex and I coparent great. Hope this isn't considered thread jacking, and I guess I don't need advice (or do I?) but I will say I have learned my lesson and have way better boundaries now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## tonedef

And I agree with that. I know it was a choice I made without really considering what my kids would think about it later BUT I see posts where people suggest the betrayed take full custody and such and in my opinion thats like napalming an ant bed. I would just hate to know my parenting score would be based on that choice. Maybe one day I'll be brave enough to post my story cause it is quite unique I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

tonedef said:


> I was a wayward in my last marriage and ended up marrying him. I found this site while looking for help because of marital problems (go figure). Everything is fine now but I will say this site has opened my eyes to the hurt I caused in my last marriage. Only thing I do not get is how waywards are bad parents? I think it is selfish but I never neglected my kids and my ex and I coparent great. Hope this isn't considered thread jacking, and I guess I don't need advice (or do I?) but I will say I have learned my lesson and have way better boundaries now.


Because if you and your ex are good parents to you children, your children would do better growing up in an intact family.

Your children go back and froth between your place and your ex's place, right?

Have you ever tried to live that way? Think how you would feel if you had to move from house to house constantly? It's very disruptive a child. It would be very disruptive to you as an adult if you had to do it.


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## EleGirl

tonedef said:


> And I agree with that. I know it was a choice I made without really considering what my kids would think about it later BUT I see posts where people suggest the betrayed take full custody and such and in my opinion thats like napalming an ant bed. I would just hate to know my parenting score would be based on that choice. Maybe one day I'll be brave enough to post my story cause it is quite unique I guess.


Well, an affair is a lot like napalming an ant bed. 

I disagree in most case with one fighting for full custody. Children need both parents. 

But there are some cases in which one parent is not a good parent. Some parents are emotionally/physically abusive, drug/alcohol addicts, mentally ill. Some wayward spouses abandon their children. Each case is unique.


What do see here on TAM are a lot of people who are bitter and advise all kinds of things that are, in my opinion, not a good way to do things. It's like they can vent their own anger vicariously by encouraging others to do some really out-there things.


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## Turin74

Wrt the custody. I think we all agree that children are innocent party in the infidelity business, so the statement that any custody arrangement should be on the best interest of children should not be debated. 

Now, financials and all aside and all other things equal: if one has to choose between 2 parents and one has already put his/her own non-essential/short term needs above child's well being, who would you choose? Of course, it may be the case the BS is no good - but the answer is a D, which apart from anything else could be in the best interest of the child. 

And, as a person who has no parents around and who had to make his way in life with out parents support, let me tell you (with zero animosity): your parenting score IS based on any choices you make. That's what your children will remember you for. 




tonedef said:


> And I agree with that. I know it was a choice I made without really considering what my kids would think about it later BUT I see posts where people suggest the betrayed take full custody and such and in my opinion thats like napalming an ant bed. I would just hate to know my parenting score would be based on that choice. Maybe one day I'll be brave enough to post my story cause it is quite unique I guess.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Haiku

lenzi said:


> That's like saying "I'm a lion tamer and I'd like to invite you into this cage filled with hungry lions. I've got my whip and I've got this stool that I can turn backwards to help shield you from the big cats so c'mon inside!"



Or in other words...two wolves and a sheep discussing what's for dinner.


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## tonedef

I can understand my parenting being judged on any choices I make but do I deserve to always wear a scarlet letter for that one when I try to make it up to them any way I can and take full responsibility? Also my parents are divorced and there was some back and forth but it didn't bother me, plus I got the BEST step dad in the world. My kids do deserve what I took away and its something that haunts me. But if it means anything, everyone gets along. There is seemingly no bitterness. My husband and ex are friendly. My kids father sees them any time he wants. I do however find it sad that as a past wayward, I can't offer any sound advice. That fog everyone speaks of is serious stuff. I will say men and women cannot be just friends, and you are just a few words and a few thoughts away from an ea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Philat

tonedef said:


> I can understand my parenting being judged on any choices I make but do I deserve to always wear a scarlet letter for that one when I try to make it up to them any way I can and take full responsibility? Also my parents are divorced and there was some back and forth but it didn't bother me, plus I got the BEST step dad in the world. My kids do deserve what I took away and its something that haunts me. But if it means anything, everyone gets along. There is seemingly no bitterness. My husband and ex are friendly. My kids father sees them any time he wants. I do however find it sad that as a past wayward, I can't offer any sound advice. That fog everyone speaks of is serious stuff. I will say men and women cannot be just friends, and you are just a few words and a few thoughts away from an ea.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Tonedef, can we assume that your first marriage (and your children's home) broke up because of your affair? If so, I'm sure you can understand how that would be considered (very) bad parenting. Does that make you a bad parent now and forever more? Not necessarily.


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## Regret214

I had an affair. I made that horrible choice.

I never neglected my children. Not once ever. To imply that because someone had an affair makes them a horrible person in every aspect of their life is laughable. To say so means anyone who's done anything wrong in their lives is guilty of this.

Do you smoke pot? If so, you are a bad parent. Do you drink? If so, you are a bad parent. Cigarettes? Bad parent. These things are proven to have a negative and impairment on your judgement and abilities.

Tonedef, you made a horrible decision with your affair. You lost your husband because of it. Luckily, your husband and you are on seemingly positive terms and that's what your children need. Both parents don't necessarily need to live under the same roof. As long as you're both engaged and involved in your children's lives, THAT is all that matters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3putt

Philat said:


> Tonedef, can we assume that your first marriage (and your children's home) broke up because of your affair? If so, I'm sure you can understand how that would be considered (very) bad parenting. Does that make you a bad parent now and forever more? Not necessarily.


Of course it doesn't make her a bad parent, at least under these circumstances it would seem. What it does do though is teach these kids by example that this kind of behavior is normal and acceptable in a family.

Not sure I (or anyone else for that matter) would want to be setting this kind of example as acceptable behavior for children to later emulate.

And they more than likely will, as it's all they know.


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## tonedef

I guess one could say that is a rather fair assumption. I do love my children very much though and I do try the best I can to remedy the past. I do see I am the only one bold enough so far to chime in so I might just sneak out quietly lol..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Philat

tonedef said:


> I guess one could say that is a rather fair assumption. I do love my children very much though and I do try the best I can to remedy the past. I do see I am the only one bold enough so far to chime in so I might just sneak out quietly lol..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think most of us would hope you stick around.


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## tonedef

Definitely sticking around! Love this forum and the insight is wonderful. I'm just afraid to offend anyone by speaking too much about it. I know I messed up. I was looking for what my marriage lacked and my having poor boundaries helped me achieve that. I would just never want anyone to think I am a bad mom based soley on that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zanne

3putt said:


> Of course it doesn't make her a bad parent, at least under these circumstances it would seem. What it does do though is teach these kids by example that this kind of behavior is normal and acceptable in a family.
> 
> Not sure I (or anyone else for that matter) would want to be setting this kind of example as acceptable behavior for children to later emulate.
> 
> *And they more than likely will, as it's all they know.*


This makes no sense. My mom was a chain smoker. None of us kids picked up her bad habit.


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## tryingpatience

tonedef said:


> That fog everyone speaks of is serious stuff. I will say men and women cannot be just friends, and you are just a few words and a few thoughts away from an ea.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It sounds like you learned from your experience. There are some stories here where WS have done some really questionable things during their "fog". In those cases you see posters calling for full custody etc.

Depending on the type of affair, if the WS is putting a lot of effort in the AP and leading a double life, it would take away from them being a better parent.


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## bandit.45

tonedef said:


> Definitely sticking around! Love this forum and the insight is wonderful. I'm just afraid to offend anyone by speaking too much about it. I know I messed up. I was looking for what my marriage lacked and my having poor boundaries helped me achieve that. I would just never want anyone to think I am a bad mom based soley on that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well marrying your affair partner won't win you any fans here, but it admire your bravery. I guess as long as you accept the unforeseen negative ramifications that may lie ahead, you are farther along than most waywards we encounter here. Most could care less about their ex betrayed spouses. It sounds like you have some conscience. That's rare. 

But don't kid yourself. The ripple effect of what you did is not over. You may have done damage to yourself and your kids that may lie under the surface now, but could erupt later on. Just be ready to take responsibility for whatever arises.


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## tonedef

I have definitely learned. I feel so guilty for how I made him feel. This was almost 6 years ago and I still reflect on it! I really hope that one day, those who have had affairs, have a reality check. It is something I'm glad I got.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tonedef

I do not know how to respont to individual posts, but Bandit, that is what I am afraid of. My kids from that marriage already ask a few questions here and there, but I know the questions will get harder as they grow and their judgment of me may be a tough pill to swallow. I do hope they will forgive me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Turin74

Just to confirm. Not saying 'makes them a horrible person in every aspect of life' at all. Only saying 'does negatively impact children, they'd be better of without this'.

BTW, not on a moral high horse here. There are people I "met" here that deserve respect more than many of "high moral, never at fault" people I know in real life. 




Regret214 said:


> I never neglected my children. Not once ever. To imply that because someone had an affair makes them a horrible person in every aspect of their life is laughable.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Turin74

Example of this: real story. 

Beautiful loving family, twins. Wife goes overseas on vacation and has a fling with local guy. Guilt and remorse straight after that, tells nobody, keeps being great mother and wife, all is perfect as usual. . 2 years later, they go to the same country as a family. Bump into that local guy, he creates a scene, husband brakes his bones, ends up in local jail. Wife spends months in their and thousands on lawyers, tickets etc to get him out. Kids are affected for life. 




bandit.45 said:


> The ripple effect of what you did is not over. You may have done damage to yourself and your kids that may lie under the surface now, but could erupt later on. Just be ready to take responsibility for whatever arises.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Zanne

Rookie4 said:


> I would like to personally invite any wayward spouses, who might be lurking here on TAM, to post your stories and see if we can help you. There are a number of posters who will do their best to answer your questions and give you the best advice they have. Of course , there are also those who will attempt to berate and abuse you, but I feel that there are enough compassionate posters to , in part, shield you from the haters and abusers. *TAM is a very worthwhile website, and can be a positive force in marriage reconciliation.*


Here's the thing, Rookie. On TAM, any WS who is remorseful and interested in R, is championed. And rightly so as I understand that this is a site to support marriages.

But what of the marriages, such as Tonedef's, born out of infidelity? Does she deserve the same level of support here for her current marriage?

It seems to me that all posters looking for relationship advice, regardless of circumstance, should be treated with the same amount of respect.

Some marriages are not destined for reconciliation.

If that's the case, the first marriage may have failed, but there are lessons to be learned and people here could be contributing to the success of future relationships and/or marriage.


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## Regret214

Turin74 said:


> Just to confirm. Not saying 'makes them a horrible person in every aspect of life' at all. Only saying 'does negatively impact children, they'd be better of without this'.
> 
> BTW, not on a moral high horse here. There are people I "met" here that deserve respect more than many of "high moral, never at fault" people I know in real life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_



I don't want you or anyone else posting in this thread to think my remarks were directed at them, as they are not intended to be. They are things I've had said to me and read towards other waywards here in a two year span.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jim123

tonedef said:


> I guess one could say that is a rather fair assumption. I do love my children very much though and I do try the best I can to remedy the past. I do see I am the only one bold enough so far to chime in so I might just sneak out quietly lol..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It seems everything has worked out, so what is the issue you need to address


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## See_Listen_Love

tonedef said:


> I do however find it sad that as a past wayward, I can't offer any sound advice. That fog everyone speaks of is serious stuff. I will say men and women cannot be just friends, and you are just a few words and a few thoughts away from an ea.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would say you make a remarkable observation here (_a few words and thoughts separates us from an affair_), with a quite definite conclusion (_men and women cannot be just friends_).

So that is maybe sound advice, or maybe not correct stated for everybody.

But in any case something you can shine your light on from being an experience expert.


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## bigtone128

I disagree with most on this thread. Kids are affected by affairs. And to compare infidelity (betrayal of the worst) to smoking or drinking (bad personal habits) in ludicrous to say the least. I am wondering what planet people are on here. THEN to suggest they are good parents - again to do something SO selfish that it affects kids, kids lives and trust for a lifetime and then to suggest they are good parents....I am sorry - not good parenting material. They may love their children but they love themselves more than they love their children therefore = not a good parent. 

My ex showered attention on our 2 boys ONLY TO COVER UP HER MISDEEDS. So she gave the appearance of a good parent but it was only to make up her affair. Sorry not buying the premise.


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## Wolf1974

Kids absolutely are affected by affairs. Destroyed my entire family and were dragged out of their home they were born in, not literally of course, for 50% of the time.

My x was having the OM in our house three feet from my sleeping daughters while I was out having surgery. What if they woke up and met this strange guy in the hallway on accident. Selfish and low character this POS and my x wife was. It would have certainly been more forgivable had they just gone to a hoteL.

So no you could never convince me that the kids aren't harmed by this. I think my x is a terrible parent. The why is simple. If you are a parent your WANTs come below the NEEDs of your kids. When you cheat and break up family's you are selfishly putting your wants first. I certainly hope that when the time comes to have this discussion with my daughters that's how they feel as well but ultimately they will decide if my x is a good mother or not.


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## Regret214

I don't think anyone is saying that children aren't affected if the couple divorces. I know I wouldn't say that. I WILL say again that just because someone has an affair does not necessarily mean that they're neglecting their children. To say so is to compare it to drinking, smoking and marijuana use. That's my opinion.

Not every wayward is as bad or heinous as "yours".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Turin74

I guess we are talking semantics here. Don't see anyone specifically bringing "neglect" up here. If by "neglect" we mean "children not fed, healthy, educated, safe, etc" - I agree, the answer is "no". A lot of people having affair do not neglect their kids, while I know plenty who do and (probably) don't have affairs. 

If we mean "children suffer/worse off" - the answer is "yes", affair does that to kids. 



Regret214 said:


> I don't think anyone is saying that children aren't affected if the couple divorces. I know I wouldn't say that. I WILL say again that just because someone has an affair does not necessarily mean that they're neglecting their children. To say so is to compare it to drinking, smoking and marijuana use. That's my opinion.
> 
> Not every wayward is as bad or heinous as "yours".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## larry.gray

Zanne said:


> This makes no sense. My mom was a chain smoker. None of us kids picked up her bad habit.


My wife has bad asthma and a very low tolerance to second hand smoke (it triggers the asthma).

No you can't necessarily _prove_ that the cause was the fact that her father smoked in the house until she was 14, it was very likely the cause.


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## tonedef

I didn't have him around my kids til months later. I would never bring a strange guy into the same home as my kids. What if he was crazy! Believe it or not, I told my ex I wasn't happy and I told him about wanting to meet him. I had a huge character flaw then apparently but I didn't do anything behind his back. He went out on fridays, me on saturdays. But before we even got to that point, it was rough. That is where this site opened my eyes to how I was, how he felt. I know there are some awful waywards. I read things I can't even fathom. But if there is such a thing as a wayward with a conscience it would be me. In the process of it all though of course I was in fairy tale mode and thought my kids would definitely be okay because I would always be there for them every step. I look back now though and think wow who was I? I feel so badly. But here we are today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BURNT KEP

I am not saying having an affair makes you a bad parent but if you are bringing a strange person into the house while your kids are home I am sure this is not very good parenting. How we'll do you really know this person? Also the more time spent with your ap does take away time from your kids I am also sure this is not very good parenting.


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## tonedef

I don't think there is any advice a lurking wayward would actually listen to. Some, and even me back then, have their head so high in the clouds that the only person that could bring them back to earth is the om/ow. Whether they were dumped or being shown the true colors of the om/ow. Best advice can be going to lurking betrayeds. My ex was so passive, upset, did everything I read on here to not do. To affair proof a marriage, no opposite sex friends, not even on facebook. Always have transparency. Keep the passion alive. That is what my husband and I do now and I know a lot of you find that sickening bc I should have done that the first time! I know. Lesson learned. To the betrayed, if lines are ever crossed, you have to show you are not afraid to lose them. 180 them like crazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

I shared my story about how my husband was dragging his feet regarding marriage, so three years into dating I told him that I wanted to be married and if he didn't I understood but I would keep my options open. I was completely honest with him, didn't pressure him into anything, didn't get pregnant to keep him, and didn't bait and switch. He made his own decision.....the male crowd went apesh!t, made all kinds of nasty comments because apparently they're entitled to have relationships on their terms, and one even called me a crack wh0re making a business deal. And a mod actually defended him because poor baby had "been through the ringer". If I was a WS there's no [email protected] way I'd post here. Just sayin.

For the record, we are now three years into marriage and 9 years into our relationship and he says he doesn't know what took him so long and he wishes he'd married me sooner.


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## Pluto2

Regret214 said:


> I don't think anyone is saying that children aren't affected if the couple divorces. I know I wouldn't say that. I WILL say again that just because someone has an affair does not necessarily mean that they're neglecting their children. To say so is to compare it to drinking, smoking and marijuana use. That's my opinion.
> 
> Not every wayward is as bad or heinous as "yours".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't doubt that lots of WW don't technically neglect their children. I ask that you consider the impact parental infidelity has on children even years later, regardless of whether a divorce is involved. Children whose parents divorced suffer a universal stress which some handle better than others. But cheating parents presents a separate burden, regardless of divorce. Just take a quick look at these books.

Parents Who Cheat: How Children and Adults Are Affected When Their Parents Are Unfaithful, Ana Nogales

Long Term Effects of Infidelity on Children, Mike Tucker

Cheating Parents: Recovering From Parental Infidelity by Dennis Ortman

Does that mean the children are forever scared-of course not. But to assert that a spouse's infidelity occurs in isolation and does not adversely impact the children would not be accurate either.


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## bigtone128

tonedef said:


> I didn't have him around my kids *til months later*.
> *So that makes it okay? Here we go..gaslighting 101*
> I would never bring a strange guy into the same home as my kids. *but you did but "months later" so it's okay?*
> What if he was crazy! Believe it or not, I told my ex I wasn't happy and I told him about wanting to meet him. *So that made it okay?*
> I had a huge character flaw then *but now now? yea and character flaws just fly away?*
> but I didn't do anything behind his back. *You mean you had sex in front of him? wow what did he think of that?*
> I know there are some awful waywards. *Not you though, you are a different "type" of wayward - one of the good ones!*
> In the process of it all though of course I was in fairy tale mode and thought my kids would definitely be okay because I would always be there for them every step. *The fog!*I look back now though and think wow who was I? I feel so badly. But here we are today.*Yea back with your spouse probably and he and you kids have to pick up the pieces for your crappy decisions! You are no different from any other wayward I see on here - sorry.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bigtone128

tonedef said:


> My ex was so passive, upset, did everything I read on here to not do.
> *It wasn't your spouse's fault you cheated*
> To the betrayed, if lines are ever crossed, you have to show you are not afraid to lose them. 180 them like crazy.
> *Not betrayed's responsibility to keep or get their spouses in line!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## intuitionoramiwrong

I am definitely anti-infidelity, obviously...but if one of the parents wants to step out of the marriage, and does the RIGHT thing by asking for a divorce first...then it's still leads to children sharing two homes. 

I'm not saying that it's ideal...but it seems to me that on this board you'd get praise for saying you wanted out before you cheated... but the outcome as far as time spent with the children, is the same.


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## Turin74

You are 100% correct. To take this to the extreme a parent who is not having an affair can still lock the child in a parked car (interestingly enough unless I'm mistaken in the latest case in us there was something involved). 

Yet, in the majority of cases in the case of "honourable" divorce the negative impact on kids seem to be miminised - less chances of ending up with posom, less drama, etc. Of course, any exceptions are possible. Worst case the person who initiated divorce can say "I've done the right thing". Children notice that. 





intuitionoramiwrong said:


> I am definitely anti-infidelity, obviously...but if one of the parents wants to step out of the marriage, and does the RIGHT thing by asking for a divorce first...then it's still leads to children sharing two homes.
> 
> I'm not saying that it's ideal...but it seems to me that on this board you'd get praise for saying you wanted out before you cheated... but the outcome as far as time spent with the children, is the same.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Almostrecovered

Turin74 said:


> Example of this: real story.
> 
> Beautiful loving family, twins. Wife goes overseas on vacation and has a fling with local guy. Guilt and remorse straight after that, tells nobody, keeps being great mother and wife, all is perfect as usual. . 2 years later, they go to the same country as a family. Bump into that local guy, he creates a scene, husband brakes his bones, ends up in local jail. Wife spends months in their and thousands on lawyers, tickets etc to get him out. Kids are affected for life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


terrible example

just like having an affair is a horrible choice to feeling neglected or being in a "bad marriage", violence is a horrible choice or reaction to an affair and that choice lies on the person who committed that act


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## tonedef

I thought gaslighting was when you keep denying it and making the betrayed think they are crazy? Didn't do that. I was honest. And no it is not up to the betrayed to keep the wayward in line. Both need to keep passion going and build a wall of trust. I was just saying that if lines are crossed, a betrayed spouse would be more likely to listen to advice than a wayward would. Also, yes I did have a character flaw, low morals and such but I'd like to think I am changed. Here I am at 32, I do not want to put my kids through another divorce and I witnessed first hand the devastating effects of cheating, to add insult to injury it was by my hands. I hope nobody thinks I look at what I did through rose colored glasses. I know I made that choice. It was not my exs fault. I do not want to put anyone through that again though so I definitely have better boundaries now. I am aware how a friendship can progress to an ea then to a pa. Back then I didn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Turin74

The point of the example was the 'ripple" effect, as bandit put it. 

That seemed to be an... innocent is the wrong word but you know what I mean - affair, barried for life, she kept being perfect mother and wife... No effect on kids, happy family, all skeletons locked in closet... For 2 years. Than - complete destruction on a scale I can't find a comparable example here. Kids... I'm a very unemotional person but I couldn't look at them without my mood being ruined for a while. 



Almostrecovered said:


> Turin74 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Example of this: real story.
> 
> Beautiful loving family, twins. Wife goes overseas on vacation and has a fling with local guy. Guilt and remorse straight after that, tells nobody, keeps being great mother and wife, all is perfect as usual. . 2 years later, they go to the same country as a family. Bump into that local guy, he creates a scene, husband brakes his bones, ends up in local jail. Wife spends months in their and thousands on lawyers, tickets etc to get him out. Kids are affected for life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
> 
> 
> 
> terrible example
> 
> just like having an affair is a horrible choice to feeling neglected or being in a "bad marriage", violence is a horrible choice or reaction to an affair and that choice lies on the person who committed that act
Click to expand...

 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Lister

Rookie4 said:


> I would like to personally invite any wayward spouses, who might be lurking here on TAM, to post your stories and see if we can help you. There are a number of posters who will do their best to answer your questions and give you the best advice they have. Of course , there are also those who will attempt to berate and abuse you, but I feel that there are enough compassionate posters to , in part, shield you from the haters and abusers. TAM is a very worthwhile website, and can be a positive force in marriage reconciliation.


Hi Rookie,

I suppose i am a lurking wayward. I posted a thread a while back and got a range of responses. Some were quite vitriolic but I expected that, and ironically those can be the most useful in making you understand the heartbreak you have caused. The worst vitriol seems to be targetted at any WS who seeks to find justification for their affair, be it their spouses behaviour, biology, pressures of work or whatever, and i can understand why. 

It has taken me a long time to realize it but there is no justification for betraying your spouse through an affair OR for then witholding the truth about deatils, dates etc. I did both and have caused unimaginable suffering as a result. So my top tips for any new WSs on here are:

- Stop trying to justify what you did, it was wrong! Try to understand 'why' you did it though to address those issues

- Tell the total truth to your spouse regardless of how hard that is to do or what you think the consequences may be. 

Happy to try and pass on my experiences and lessons to other WSs although if you post on this forum as a WS I think you have to accept that you will be challenged from time to time, and that sometimes people will step over the line because of the hurt and pain they have suffered.

C'est la vie


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## bandit.45

tonedef said:


> I didn't have him around my kids til months later. I would never bring a strange guy into the same home as my kids. What if he was crazy! Believe it or not, I told my ex I wasn't happy and I told him about wanting to meet him. I had a huge character flaw then apparently but I didn't do anything behind his back. He went out on fridays, me on saturdays. But before we even got to that point, it was rough. That is where this site opened my eyes to how I was, how he felt. I know there are some awful waywards. I read things I can't even fathom. But if there is such a thing as a wayward with a conscience it would be me. In the process of it all though of course I was in fairy tale mode and thought my kids would definitely be okay because I would always be there for them every step. I look back now though and think wow who was I? I feel so badly. But here we are today.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The biggest issue I see coming up is just an overall lack of credibility when, in the future, you may want to help your kids with their future relationships or try to give advice, and they come back at you with "Who are you to be giving me advice about my relationships?", or "butt out Mom, I don't need you telling me about how to deal with this..."

Teach your kids now that the way you and current husband got together IS NOT the healthy way to start a marriage, and that your marriage is not the "norm" in the conventional description of marriage, because it simply is not.


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## tonedef

Thank you, Mrs John Adams. It was tough indeed and I do have a lot of respect for this forum and for the spot on insight. I have been reading this site for a couple of years now and it was an eye opener. And I agree with you every situation is unique. I know it has and will continue to affect my kids and I cant express how sorry I am for that. But I take some comfort in knowing there is no drama, my husband loves my boys and we have two great kids together now. Our 2 year old gets invited to my exs house to play with her brothers when they are there. It truly is unique I guess how smooth we all get along. I am by no means trying to make light of the situation, but I am glad we act like adults and let the children be children.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## love=pain

Regret214 said:


> I don't think anyone is saying that children aren't affected if the couple divorces. I know I wouldn't say that. I WILL say again that just because someone has an affair does not necessarily mean that they're neglecting their children. To say so is to compare it to drinking, smoking and marijuana use. That's my opinion.
> 
> Not every wayward is as bad or heinous as "yours".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very true all waywards are not the same, I would even say most are good and effective parents during the cheating.
It has been discussed here about how good cheaters are at compartmentalizing their lives, hiding the betrayal from everyone keeping their family life the same.
If caught(hopefully not by the children) and the discord spills out into the children's lives or leads to divorce then yes the WS has let their children down and quite possibly caused damage that may never heal, something a good parent would never do.
Even without infidelity affecting a marriage a divorce or other marital strife can cause damage to the kids good parenting can soften this bad parenting just makes it worse.


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## tonedef

Bandit- I agree with that. I do also think sometimes the people who give the best advice are the ones who made choices and learned from them. I will always lend a helping hand or give advice to them when asked, but of course the decision to take it or not is soley on them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

tonedef said:


> Bandit- I agree with that. I do also think sometimes the people who give the best advice are the ones who made choices and learned from them. I will always lend a helping hand or give advice to them when asked, but of course the decision to take it or not is soley on them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did your ex remarry? If so, has he learned to set better boundaries in his new relationship?


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## tonedef

He has not remarried but he still has the mindset men and women can be just friends. I honestly think he could easily set himselp up again if he came across a woman like I was then. I do hope he finds a good woman who herself has good morals and boundaries when it comes to relationships and my children. My ex really is a good guy. He has very innocent thinking though. I hope this makes sense. Still workin on coffee lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

tonedef said:


> He has not remarried but he still has the mindset men and women can be just friends. I honestly think he could easily set himselp up again if he came across a woman like I was then. I do hope he finds a good woman who herself has good morals and boundaries when it comes to relationships and my children. My ex really is a good guy. He has very innocent thinking though. I hope this makes sense. Still workin on coffee lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then frankly, in my worthless opinion, your ex should never remarry. Part of the responsibility if marriage is growing up and shedding naïveté. If he is not able or willing to work on that aspect of himself, i.e. developing healthy boundaries for himself that he will not allow others to cross, then he should steer clear of marriage or committed relationships. 

It was easy for you to violate his boundaries because, well, he had none and probably still does not. How tragic.


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## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> I don't think anyone is saying that children aren't affected if the couple divorces. I know I wouldn't say that. I WILL say again that just because someone has an affair does not necessarily mean that they're neglecting their children. To say so is to compare it to drinking, smoking and marijuana use. That's my opinion.
> 
> *Not every wayward is as bad or heinous as "yours".*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure if this is a general statement or directed toward me but I will definitely disagree with that. Cheaters are of low morale character and selfish just like my x. They are also justifiers as you see all to often here on TAM

In so far as the kids, When one spouse cheats they break martial vows and step outside the family. It's never just the spouse they are cheating on they are hurting and endangering the family unit. That includes the children. Are their possible exceptions.....maybe but they would be rare. Maybe if like Mrs JA stated the kids were like infants and the parents reconciled. Then the only danger would be if they found out later in life.

But since the affair often leads to either a rocky reconcile period or divorce the kids are certainly affected by that.


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## staystrong

tonedef said:


> He has not remarried but he still has the mindset men and women can be just friends. I honestly think he could easily set himself up again if he came across a woman like I was then. I do hope he finds a good woman who herself has good morals and boundaries when it comes to relationships and my children. My ex really is a good guy. He has very innocent thinking though. I hope this makes sense. Still workin on coffee lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just curious, tonedef..
1. Did you wonder why he wasn't more jealous?
2. How much of your affair was caused by a lack of respect for him as a man?
3. Did you get sullen and nit-picky with your ex during the affair? Did you criticized him behind his back?

Women and men can be friends, if they know their boundaries. Not spending time alone in a room together is one. 

Perhaps your husband was "innocent" because he inherently trusted you with his life.


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## SunnyT

It's not adultery that hurts the children. It's divorce. People get divorced for many reasons besides cheating. 

And really, some marriages are so dysfunctional that divorce HELPS the children.... who were already hurt via a crappy marriage. 

Also, bad vs. good parenting is sooooooooooo subjective. Most kids don't know about parents' affairs. (Well, I don't have any statistics on that, I'm guessing.) You can still be a good parent while making stupid choices within the marriage. Is a gambler necessarily a bad parent? Or a slacker? What about an over-achiever? There are too many variables in which we all judge parenting skills.


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## tonedef

And a lot of his boundaries (or lack of) is from having too much trust and innocent thinking. Example, while married, he befriended an ex of mine and would invite him over (nothing happened) and he would go out to lunch with a female coworker who apparently complained to him how horrible her husband was. Both of those are trouble. But he truly had no ill intentions and still has the mindset that its still okay. I had the same mindset of opposite sex friends and lack of boundaries but ending up falling in love. That is how easily it can happen. I learned a lot from that mainly because of this site. I told him about this forum last year but he wasnt interested...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReformedHubby

Interesting topic. For the record I'm a former wayward. I was about as bad as it gets because I was a serial. At the time I did not have children. I know this will sound bad (especially coming from a wayward). But I've never subscribed to the common statement that if you cheat on your wife you are cheating on your kids. I feel this way because the assumption that all waywards are bad parents is like saying that all betrayed spouses are perfect parents.

My father was wayward as well, one could argue that I became a wayward because he was but that would only be part of the story. Would they take into account that he was one of the only dads in my neighborhood who didn't drink himself into a beer coma after work? That he taught me to value education and to always strive to better myself. He was basically the dad that all the other kids wished was their dad. Looking back I turned out much better than all of my childhood friends and I have my father to thank for it. 

Three weeks from now I will be introducing him as he receives an award from the city for his contributions to the community. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, the fact that he was a serial cheater did not make him a failure as a father. My mother would tell you the same. Had she put him out on the street for his infidelities, the odds of me being dead or in jail would have been significantly higher.


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## Wolf1974

SunnyT;9947217[B said:


> ]It's not adultery that hurts the children. It's divorce. [/B]People get divorced for many reasons besides cheating.
> 
> And really, some marriages are so dysfunctional that divorce HELPS the children.... who were already hurt via a crappy marriage.
> 
> Also, bad vs. good parenting is sooooooooooo subjective. Most kids don't know about parents' affairs. (Well, I don't have any statistics on that, I'm guessing.) You can still be a good parent while making stupid choices within the marriage. Is a gambler necessarily a bad parent? Or a slacker? What about an over-achiever? There are too many variables in which we all judge parenting skills.


But when people divorce because of the affair then that is the cause of the hurt. Otherwise then it would be that I hurt my children because I could no longer trust or love my x wife because of her affair and chose divorce and she was free of that burden because she only cheated.......


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## staystrong

I agree it is strange he hasn't changed his mindset about it. 

The 180 is a very difficult thing to manage, the stress levels are extremely high. Rage, depression, anxiety, fear. It's impossible to understand to pull of a perfect 180, since most people are doing it to get the WS back even if they are told that's not what it is for. Many go through false R and still aren't thinking straight.. their own BS fog, so to speak. Also depends on your circumstances.. some people have better support networks than others. 

Do you not wish to answer the three questions above?


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## tonedef

Staystrong- he just is not a jealous guy and I think one has to have mild jealous tendancies to keep a relationship strong bc it helps enforce what you will or won't put up with. I was nitpicky about him before the affair and I never rewrote history during it. I only looked at him differently as a man because I would address what issues I had but it was hard talking to him because of the ignore it and it will go away philosophy he had. And because of his extreme passiveness. His best friend asked me for some ''pictures'' and when I told him about it ,he got mad but said nothing. My affair had nothing to do with how he was though. I own that part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tonedef

Oh and I guess I never wondered why he was not jealous bc my mentality was almost the same. Believe it or not, I actually had the mild jealousy. Also to pull of the perfect 180 you cant be afraid to lose them. One thing though, is there a way one can tell the difference between affair fog and actually feeling real love?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tonedef

Or can a wayward actually grow to love the ap, but the fog is what makes them try hard to make it attainable? I will be honest- I really did fall for the guy- but the fog in the midst of it all led me to believe everyone will be okay and happy. I hope not to offend by that statement and that thought process does not pertain to all waywards, but to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vellocet

tonedef said:


> *Only thing I do not get is how waywards are bad parents*? I think it is selfish but I never neglected my kids and my ex and I coparent great.


Its a matter of perspective mostly. Most WS will not consider themselves bad parents. A lot of BS would, but really depends on the BS. 

I think the idea of a WS being a bad parent is that they did something for their own gratification and risked their kids' well being and family life. So I think that a WS was* temporarily *a bad parent, not a bad parent in general.


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## SunnyT

Wolf1974 said:


> But when people divorce because of the affair then that is the cause of the hurt. Otherwise then it would be that I hurt my children because I could no longer trust or love my x wife because of her affair and chose divorce and she was free of that burden because she only cheated.......



You are right about that. I wouldn't defend cheating. 

I'm just wondering how many people include the children in the discussions regarding divorce. Aren't the children usually included once the decision has been made? Do kids really need all the details? Are the children informed when there is cheating but the couple has decided to remain married? 

I thought the original post was about waywards in general, not just adultery. 

The kids may or may not be hurt by divorce, no matter what the reason. Is it the cause of the divorce that hurts the kids? Or the way it all plays out.... which speaks to both parents' outlooks/morals/baggage, etc.... Sometimes it's the BS attitude that hurts the kids more than the WW.

Way too many variables to make a judgement on parenting in relations to divorce regardless of the reasons.


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## ReformedHubby

tonedef said:


> Oh and I guess I never wondered why he was not jealous bc my mentality was almost the same. Believe it or not, I actually had the mild jealousy. Also to pull of the perfect 180 you cant be afraid to lose them. *One thing though, is there a way one can tell the difference between affair fog and actually feeling real love?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The fog is one of those things that I just can't get on board with. When I was falling for my wife I wasn't in the fog. I was falling in love. 

Why is it different because its an AP? I think what we refer to on TAM as fog is really someone falling in love or in "new love" with their AP. In other words I don't believe there is such a thing as fog.


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## staystrong

tonedef said:


> Staystrong- he just is not a jealous guy and I think one has to have mild jealous tendancies to keep a relationship strong bc it helps enforce what you will or won't put up with. I was nitpicky about him before the affair and I never rewrote history during it. I only looked at him differently as a man because I would address what issues I had but it was hard talking to him because of the ignore it and it will go away philosophy he had. And because of his extreme passiveness. His best friend asked me for some ''pictures'' and when I told him about it ,he got mad but said nothing. My affair had nothing to do with how he was though. I own that part.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hunh. I'm wondering how the conversation drifted to the point where the BF asked you for pictures.

The evo-psych people here would probably say that his passivity or your perception of his passivity caused you to lose desire for him and made you more vulnerable to seeking another mate. 

I've often heard the "he didn't listen" response, and often under scrutiny, this turns out to be communication differences between men and women. I don't want to let this go.. Did you clearly say "I'm unhappy about X and what can we do to change that?". Was it important stuff? Or was it standard minor marital issues which go on top of a big list of other things to take care of? I feel like I am sensing rewriting here.


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## vellocet

SunnyT said:


> It's not adultery that hurts the children. It's divorce



So if a BS chooses divorce because their spouse cheated, then the BS is who hurt the kids?




> And really, some marriages are so dysfunctional that divorce HELPS the children.... who were already hurt via a crappy marriage.


I agree with this for a minute number of cases.




> Also, bad vs. good parenting is sooooooooooo subjective. Most kids don't know about parents' affairs.


I think its more about the parent *risking* their kids well being. You are right, most kids probably don't know and the family stays in tact. But the parent still risked it. 

Again, I'm not going to say they are completely bad parents. But when engaged in an affair, they sure weren't thinking about their kids' well being at the time. Call it temporary insanity.




> (Well, I don't have any statistics on that, I'm guessing.) You can still be a good parent while making stupid choices within the marriage. Is a gambler necessarily a bad parent?


While they are pissing away their kids' college money, or money that puts food on the table, yes, in THAT SENSE they are. Not bad parents in general.


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## staystrong

ReformedHubby said:


> The fog is one of those things that I just can't get on board with. When I was falling for my wife I wasn't in the fog. I was falling in love.
> 
> Why is it different because its an AP? I think what we refer to on TAM as fog is really someone falling in love or in "new love" with their AP. In other words I don't believe there is such a thing as fog.


In many ways it probably feels the same. But before a WS meets the AP, they are often loving and in love with their BS. It's just something shiny and new has caught their attention. Normal falling in love involves freefall as well, but there's no betrayal happening. You can meet and talk to that person as you please. It's more pure. The sneaking around and the added excitement of risk heightens the meetings and the sex. It's illicit and addictive in nature, from what we're told. More fantasy based. More addictive than regular falling in love. And it causes you to do terrible things to the people you love. It overrides your conscience unless you have the willpower to stop it. Normal falling in love may make you do or say stupid things, too, but it shouldn't cause to rewrite history or blame someone else for your unhappiness. Nor should it cause to be remorseless. Normal falling in love doesn't go hand in hand with putting yourself over your spouse, your family, your values. So it's a bit twisted and foolish love. 

On top of that, sometimes people get involved in affairs with not the best intentions for the other person. Some people target married people. No doubt single people can be duped, but there are usually more chances to get a sense of the person, know their history immediately, etc. You can't bring your AP over to your family's house and ask them, "So what do you think of the person I'm dating?". All of these things affect our perception and feeling.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

tonedef said:


> Or can a wayward actually grow to love the ap, but the fog is what makes them try hard to make it attainable? I will be honest- I really did fall for the guy- but the fog in the midst of it all led me to believe everyone will be okay and happy. I hope not to offend by that statement and that thought process does not pertain to all waywards, but to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Love, I think yes. Trust is an entirely different animal.

I know that you said that you and your Husband(former OM) are in love and happy. Given what you've written about what happened and how you got divorced, it seems like things have worked out well for you.

How ever, there has to be that thought, that question, some where in the back of you and your Husband's mind. Will s/he cheat on me?...

There may not be any signs pointing to infidelity Yesterday, or Today. What about Tomorrow?...

He's had to stay late at work a few times a week, lately... Or, he comes home from a 4 day trip and finds the passenger seat in your SUV moved all the way back...

Not much on their own, but given how you two got together, if it were I, these small things, that may mean nothing, are going to stand out a little more.

Now I'm not suggesting that you, or him, are going to cheat on the other, or "once a cheater, always a cheater". I'm saying that when this bridge is crossed for the first time, it then becomes familiar to you.

Now, even just the thought of taking a second trip over is not new to you, or him. You both now have an idea of what may be on the other side for you.

I, myself, would from time to time, have to ponder whether infidelity will more likely to happen to me. Given the circumstances in how we met...


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## Wolf1974

SunnyT said:


> You are right about that. I wouldn't defend cheating.
> *
> I'm just wondering how many people include the children in the discussions regarding divorce*. Aren't the children usually included once the decision has been made? Do kids really need all the details? Are the children informed when there is cheating but the couple has decided to remain married?
> 
> I thought the original post was about waywards in general, not just adultery.
> 
> The kids may or may not be hurt by divorce, no matter what the reason. Is it the cause of the divorce that hurts the kids? Or the way it all plays out.... which speaks to both parents' outlooks/morals/baggage, etc.... Sometimes it's the BS attitude that hurts the kids more than the WW.
> 
> Way too many variables to make a judgement on parenting in relations to divorce regardless of the reasons.


I know for my case my kids don't know anything of the affair or what their mother did...yet. They have asked, mostly my oldest who has developed my inquisitive nature, but I have resisted telling them the truth. This has not been easy. Early on when they would be with me at our house speaking of their mother doing this and that and how they missed her and the urge was so strong to angrily yell your mom is a **** and left us how could you miss that? But this is not their understand and they are children.

Through counceling that anger has passed and I'm glad that it was pointed out early to me that venting my anger only hurts my kids as they will always see their mom as their mom and I was able to do something she wouldn't which is put the needs of my kids above my own wants. So I have never told them what she did. But I did promise my x that I would when they turn 18 and I will keep that promise. From there they will have to decide if they want to forgive her or not. 

All stories are different I suppose but in my circumstance it was very clear and decisive. My x pulled our family apart all by herself. She always puts herself first including above our kids and still does so. I see no way to differentiate between her as the bad person who cheated and the bad person who put her wants above our kids needs. They are simply one in the same to me


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## staystrong

tonedef said:


> Or can a wayward actually grow to love the ap, but the fog is what makes them try hard to make it attainable? I will be honest- I really did fall for the guy- but the fog in the midst of it all led me to believe everyone will be okay and happy. I hope not to offend by that statement and that thought process does not pertain to all waywards, but to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Many waywards think like you did. Which makes us BS think you are crazy. Here you are ripping out someone's heart and in your drugged-out stage you are actually proposing that friendship is possible. You say things like "You'd like her/him if you knew him" while the BS is imagining what it would be like to literally rip that person's face off.


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## staystrong

Wolf1974 said:


> I know for my case my kids don't know anything of the affair or what their mother did...yet. They have asked, mostly my oldest who has developed my inquisitive nature, but I have resisted telling them the truth. This has not been easy. Early on when they would be with me at our house speaking of their mother doing this and that and how they missed her and the urge was so strong to angrily yell your mom is a **** and left us how could you miss that? But this is not their understand and they are children.
> 
> Through counceling that anger has passed and I'm glad that it was pointed out early to me that venting my anger only hurts my kids as they will always see their mom as their mom and I was able to do something she wouldn't which is put the needs of my kids above my own wants. So I have never told them what she did. But I did promise my x that I would when they turn 18 and I will keep that promise. From there they will have to decide if they want to forgive her or not.
> 
> All stories are different I suppose but in my circumstance it was very clear and decisive. My x pulled our family apart all by herself. She always puts herself first including above our kids and still does so. I see no way to differentiate between her as the bad person who cheated and the bad person who put her wants above our kids needs. They are simply one in the same to me


Damn, Wolf. I have told my children that their mother and the AP both lied, and I didn't like AP because he was part of what broke up our family. She screwed up any possible civility by bringing that man into our STB ex-apartment while I was away for several weeks. She lost any remaining credibility she had as a mother.


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## tonedef

Reformedhubby- I do believe there is an affair fog but whether its real love or not determines how quickly one can be pulled out of it. Like some can bail when reality kicks in, snap out of it. Some stick to them even when the flaws start to show. I also think there is something to be said about mentally checking out and moving on while legally married versus just having an affair and rewritting history to justify it can be used as a determing factor of true love or not. You can be in love with someone or in love with the idea of love. Some mistaken lust for love. I checked out months before and moved on mentally, but it left him blind sided. I did talk about things that bothered me- but I suck at communicating and so did he. I mentally moved on though. He was the content one so he hadn't yet. As far as his friend- was always kinda flirty but when he got wind of us divorcing he tried making his move. It made me mad for my ex. I was bad enough and then his friend.. I really hope I make sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zanne

larry.gray said:


> My wife has bad asthma and a very low tolerance to second hand smoke (it triggers the asthma).
> 
> No you can't necessarily _prove_ that the cause was the fact that her father smoked in the house until she was 14, it was very likely the cause.


Fair enough. It's hard to argue that she wasn't affected by the second hand smoke. On the other hand, she did not follow in his footsteps and become a smoker herself.

3putt was trying to say that Tonedef's children will emulate their mother's behavior because "that is all they know." I very much disagree.


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## tonedef

GROUNDPOUNDER- I have heard those before, once a cheater always a cheater and if they cheat with you they'll cheat on you. My husband has addressed that saying what if I do that to him? I won't though because I have way better boundaries, I saw the damage done and would not do it again, I am aware how these things progress and my husband and I are on the same page on what we will and wont tolerate. If he cheats, first off I guess that is what I get but I can honestly say that I tried on my behalf.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Love, I think yes. Trust is an entirely different animal.


There must be anxiety at times. Certainly APs, if they are wise, would never say to each other "I would never cheat on you" because they both know there's always a chance. Perhaps it makes them think more of the day-to-day relationship versus the notion that they'll always be there for each other. More resistance to complacency, perhaps? More awareness of threats? They need to check up on each other more often? Probably those are good safeguards any couple should have, because many marriages are formed in innocence of the possibilities. Affairs and divorce always happen to other people, right? I'm guessing APs see the signs more clearly. But given the alleged stats of failures of those relationships, my guess is it's easier to end the relationship through cheating again. You've done it before, you could do it again if you have to.


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## Marduk

I think we're trying to label someone a "good" parent or a "bad" parent which causes all kinds of problems.

Look, the heart of it is that if one spouse decides to deceive and be unfaithful they are:
a) risking their marriage
b) putting time and energy outside of the marriage and family
c) being a poor role model

All of which potentially negatively impact their children. So they could be great parents in all kinds of ways, but these would still be poor choices for a parent to do.

It doesn't necessarily mean that they are "bad" parents. But it doesn't help them being "good" parents either. Affairs are not neutral things when it comes to the kids. However the affair partners try to justify this.


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## tonedef

Zanne- I agree. They may know what it is like to be in a divorced family but I don't see how subconsciencly they would do the same thing because I did. I hope they have long healthy marriages and I will be there to talk some sense if and when the going gets tough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong

tonedef said:


> GROUNDPOUNDER- I have heard those before, once a cheater always a cheater and if they cheat with you they'll cheat on you. My husband has addressed that saying what if I do that to him? I won't though because I have way better boundaries, I saw the damage done and would not do it again, I am aware how these things progress and my husband and I are on the same page on what we will and wont tolerate. If he cheats, first off I guess that is what I get but I can honestly say that I tried on my behalf.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I like the fact that you are trying to learn, tonedef. Clearly you want to affair proof your new marriage and not make the same poor choices again. At the expense of your first husband, but that's just the reality. 

You can't say you never would, but you can say you'll undertake every step not to. And you can't say it is because you saw the damage done. I am sure there are others who have said the same. Hell, there are even BSs who sadly enough become WS or APs. But it seems like you are very self-conscious of it, which is important.


----------



## staystrong

marduk said:


> I think we're trying to label someone a "good" parent or a "bad" parent which causes all kinds of problems.
> 
> Look, the heart of it is that if one spouse decides to deceive and be unfaithful they are:
> a) risking their marriage
> b) putting time and energy outside of the marriage and family
> c) being a poor role model
> 
> All of which potentially negatively impact their children. So they could be great parents in all kinds of ways, but these would still be poor choices for a parent to do.
> 
> It doesn't necessarily mean that they are "bad" parents. But it doesn't help them being "good" parents either. Affairs are not neutral things when it comes to the kids. However the affair partners try to justify this.


I 'Liked' this post but I'll add this: at the very least, affairs make parents "less good" than they would have been. And for very selfish reasons. That's at the detriment to the child and the possible health and welfare of the child's other parent. STDs, finances, self-esteem .. *sanity*. They are forcing a decision upon their own family without the consent of anyone else. It's destructive, and in that sense they are not only bad parents, but foolish people. Not that they don't have redeeming qualities, but they were too immature or amoral to handle the stresses that may come along with the most important relationship of their entire lives: their own spouse and children. I think this is especially true of otherwise happy loving marriages which could've been improved with some communication or as a last resort, an ultimatum or divorce. 

It boggles my mind that anyone can cheat and not understand that they are hurting the ones they love. The fog may be real in some sense but it's also a giant cop-out. Someone said it right when they said a person could be only a few seconds or thoughts away from infidelity. But that's when most people stop themselves and say no, I can't do this. Even if part of them wants to. And if the AP is pushing for it because it "feels so right", then what does that say about that person? Low character, lack of respect for marriage or relationships, lack of respect for the welfare of children.


----------



## italianjob

marduk said:


> I think we're trying to label someone a "good" parent or a "bad" parent which causes all kinds of problems.
> 
> Look, the heart of it is that if one spouse decides to deceive and be unfaithful they are:
> a) risking their marriage
> b) putting time and energy outside of the marriage and family
> c) being a poor role model
> 
> All of which potentially negatively impact their children. So they could be great parents in all kinds of ways, but these would still be poor choices for a parent to do.
> 
> It doesn't necessarily mean that they are "bad" parents. But it doesn't help them being "good" parents either. Affairs are not neutral things when it comes to the kids. However the affair partners try to justify this.


I think you nailed it 

the focus has been put a lot on points a and b, while I think the most difficult "bad parenting" risk to avoid is actually point c.

The fact of putting kids under the stress of a house divided is actually more related to a discussion about divorce in general and doesn't really have to do specifically with infidelity. 
Putting time and energy on things outside the family that eat up precious resources for the well being of the family itself is something that a lot of people end up doing not necessarily related to affair, so I also think this is a more general problem.

The case for bad parenting has more to do IMO with behaving in a way that contradicts the very basis of your teachings in educating your children. The emphasis on loyalty and honesty is obvious in any basic education of Young kids, and a cheater is clearly not practicing what he/she is preaching...


----------



## staystrong

tonedef said:


> Zanne- I agree. They may know what it is like to be in a divorced family but I don't see how subconsciencly they would do the same thing because I did. I hope they have long healthy marriages and I will be there to talk some sense if and when the going gets tough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The stats are that children of divorces are 3 times as likely to divorce. I think a similar thing holds true for children of relationships borne of infidelity. 

Many APs do not counsel their kids to not make the "same mistake" because they feel like it invalidates what they did. You seem wiser than most.

Subconsciously kids may think "I love Mommy, and if Mommy did this, than it must be okay" on some level. Amidst all the other things they are thinking/feeling. For some, it may bring them subconsciously closer to the parent who abandoned them, split the family and caused them trauma. Without trying to make you feel guilty, I'll remind you that you destroyed the reality they knew and love. You destroyed the thing that every child prizes most: a mother and father together. Sorry, but I have a lot of resentment against people who do this. I think part of their soul is missing in order to do something like that. Or they simply love themselves too much.


----------



## Rookie4

lenzi said:


> That's like saying "I'm a lion tamer and I'd like to invite you into this cage filled with hungry lions. I've got my whip and I've got this stool that I can turn backwards to help shield you from the big cats so c'mon inside!"


LOL. I don't have a whip and chair (well, I have a whip, but that's another story) but I DO have a report button and the ignore feature, and I know how to use them.
What I'm trying to do here is an attempt at self-regulation. I feel that if the good posters can deflect or discourage the venom spewers, then waywards will feel safer and can add their much needed opinions to the TAM mix.


----------



## Rookie4

Turin74 said:


> 1st of all, please be assured that this is not a personal attack. In fact I have a lot of respect for ws' who accept the pain of posting here (while obviously not condoning unremorseful).
> 
> Answering your question - children have best childhood in an environment of stable marriage. If one of the parents creates, (s)he destabilises the marriage for the sake of his/her selfish needs, depriving the child from that environment. Therefore (s)he IS a bad parent even if kids are not neglected (fed, educated, etc).
> 
> Once again, not attacking nor accusing you, please consider this response as abstract.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


I disagree. Intelligent and reasonable co-parenting for kids of divorced parents is preferable to an intact but lousy marriage.


----------



## Zanne

staystrong said:


> The stats are that children of divorces are 3 times as likely to divorce. I think a similar thing holds true for children of relationships borne of infidelity.
> 
> Many APs do not counsel their kids to not make the "same mistake" because they feel like it invalidates what they did. You seem wiser than most.
> 
> Subconsciously kids may think "I love Mommy, and if Mommy did this, than it must be okay" on some level. Amidst all the other things they are thinking/feeling. For some, it may bring them subconsciously closer to the parent who abandoned them, split the family and caused them trauma. *Without trying to make you feel guilty, I'll remind you that you destroyed the reality they knew and love. You destroyed the thing that every child prizes most: a mother and father together. Sorry, but I have a lot of resentment against people who do this. I think part of their soul is missing in order to do something like that. Or they simply love themselves too much.*


I'm sorry, but you are making a lot of assumptions in your post.

For one, not every child has both a mother and father in their lives. Lots of single parents out there - and non traditional families too.

Second, for those kids who do live with mom and dad, one would hope the parents truly love and respect one another. Not always the case!

This may have been the case in your life, and that's sad and I'm sorry...there are "those" people. However, Tonedef did say she was unhappy and emotionally done in her first marriage. By today's standards, she is okay to leave the marriage and that doesn't make her soul-less, notwithstanding her affair of course.

IOW, somebody is usually the bad guy in a break up, even when kids are involved. You are assuming they are heartless people.


----------



## Rookie4

Zanne said:


> Here's the thing, Rookie. On TAM, any WS who is remorseful and interested in R, is championed. And rightly so as I understand that this is a site to support marriages.
> 
> But what of the marriages, such as Tonedef's, born out of infidelity? Does she deserve the same level of support here for her current marriage?
> 
> It seems to me that all posters looking for relationship advice, regardless of circumstance, should be treated with the same amount of respect.
> 
> Some marriages are not destined for reconciliation.
> 
> If that's the case, the first marriage may have failed, but there are lessons to be learned and people here could be contributing to the success of future relationships and/or marriage.


I misspoke. I should not have said MARRIAGE reconciliation. I should have just said reconciliation. Reconciliation, in my opinion, means renewed respect and regard for BOTH the WS and BS, coupled with positive settlement of the adultery issues and it's aftermath. This can happen in the marriage or out of it. 
But we can discus the nature of reconciliation on that particular thread.


----------



## Marduk

Forgot a couple points in my post above:

c) if it's a physical affair, you're risking your health and your spouse's health (STIs), which risks the children's well-being.

d) the stress that it causes on the spouse can and usually does impact the kids. What's not good for the parent's mental state is not good for the kids.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Kids absolutely are affected by affairs. Destroyed my entire family and were dragged out of their home they were born in, not literally of course, for 50% of the time.
> 
> My x was having the OM in our house three feet from my sleeping daughters while I was out having surgery. What if they woke up and met this strange guy in the hallway on accident. Selfish and low character this POS and my x wife was. It would have certainly been more forgivable had they just gone to a hoteL.
> 
> So no you could never convince me that the kids aren't harmed by this. I think my x is a terrible parent. The why is simple. If you are a parent your WANTs come below the NEEDs of your kids. When you cheat and break up family's you are selfishly putting your wants first. I certainly hope that when the time comes to have this discussion with my daughters that's how they feel as well but ultimately they will decide if my x is a good mother or not.


 The effects of adultery on children are very important, but can be discussed on another thread. This thread is about inviting waywards to join our merry band and feeling safe while here.


----------



## Rookie4

tonedef said:


> I guess one could say that is a rather fair assumption. I do love my children very much though and I do try the best I can to remedy the past. I do see I am the only one bold enough so far to chime in so I might just sneak out quietly lol..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I, very much , would like you to stay with us. I think your opinion and insights would be of great interest to many posters .


----------



## Pluto2

Zanne said:


> I'm sorry, but you are making a lot of assumptions in your post.
> 
> For one, not every child has both a mother and father in their lives. Lots of single parents out there - and non traditional families too.
> 
> Second, for those kids who do live with mom and dad, one would hope the parents truly love and respect one another. Not always the case!
> 
> This may have been the case in your life, and that's sad and I'm sorry...there are "those" people. However, Tonedef did say she was unhappy and emotionally done in her first marriage. By today's standards, she is okay to leave the marriage and that doesn't make her soul-less, notwithstanding her affair of course.
> 
> IOW, somebody is usually the bad guy in a break up, even when kids are involved. You are assuming they are heartless people.


Wasn't Staystrong's point addressed to a poster who was in a traditional marriage with a mother and father, and had an A, then divorced and remarried the AP. I think you might be bringing in extra facts.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Kids absolutely are affected by affairs. Destroyed my entire family and were dragged out of their home they were born in, not literally of course, for 50% of the time.
> 
> My x was having the OM in our house three feet from my sleeping daughters while I was out having surgery. What if they woke up and met this strange guy in the hallway on accident. Selfish and low character this POS and my x wife was. It would have certainly been more forgivable had they just gone to a hoteL.
> 
> So no you could never convince me that the kids aren't harmed by this. I think my x is a terrible parent. The why is simple. If you are a parent your WANTs come below the NEEDs of your kids. When you cheat and break up family's you are selfishly putting your wants first. I certainly hope that when the time comes to have this discussion with my daughters that's how they feel as well but ultimately they will decide if my x is a good mother or not.


This is NOT the thread for this. Start one of your own and we will visit and discus it.


----------



## MattMatt

tonedef said:


> I was a wayward in my last marriage and ended up marrying him. I found this site while looking for help because of marital problems (go figure). Everything is fine now but I will say this site has opened my eyes to the hurt I caused in my last marriage. Only thing I do not get is how waywards are bad parents? I think it is selfish but I never neglected my kids and my ex and I coparent great. Hope this isn't considered thread jacking, and I guess I don't need advice (or do I?) but I will say I have learned my lesson and have way better boundaries now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Except that you stole your children's family from them.


----------



## MattMatt

Philat said:


> I think most of us would hope you stick around.


:iagree:


----------



## Zanne

Rookie4 said:


> I misspoke. I should not have said MARRIAGE reconciliation. I should have just said reconciliation. Reconciliation, in my opinion, means renewed respect and regard for BOTH the WS and BS, coupled with positive settlement of the adultery issues and it's aftermath. This can happen in the marriage or out of it.
> But we can discus the nature of reconciliation on that particular thread.


Thanks for the clarification, because that is my one big issue with this forum.

For example, some posters play the role of victim. No healing there. There's also an assumption of once a cheater, always. No chance for healing there either.


----------



## MattMatt

bigtone128 said:


> I disagree with most on this thread. Kids are affected by affairs. And to compare infidelity (betrayal of the worst) to smoking or drinking (bad personal habits) in ludicrous to say the least. I am wondering what planet people are on here. THEN to suggest they are good parents - again to do something SO selfish that it affects kids, kids lives and trust for a lifetime and then to suggest they are good parents....I am sorry - not good parenting material. They may love their children but they love themselves more than they love their children therefore = not a good parent.
> 
> My ex showered attention on our 2 boys ONLY TO COVER UP HER MISDEEDS. So she gave the appearance of a good parent but it was only to make up her affair. Sorry not buying the premise.


I think your XW was a bad person, Bigtone, in more ways than one.


----------



## Zanne

Pluto2 said:


> Wasn't Staystrong's point addressed to a poster who was in a traditional marriage with a mother and father, and had an A, then divorced and remarried the AP. I think you might be bringing in extra facts.


I was speaking to a blanket response about happy children and what makes a healthy family environment for them.

Staystrong said this: "You destroyed the thing that *every child* prizes most: a mother and father together."

Also, we can't know for sure if that was the case for Tonedef because she hasn't shared her whole story. In fact, it is unclear if the affair broke up the marriage or if she was leaving anyway.


----------



## bigtone128

tonedef said:


> Zanne- I agree. They may know what it is like to be in a divorced family but I don't see how subconsciencly they would do the same thing because I did. I hope they have long healthy marriages and *I will be there to talk some sense *if and when the going gets tough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But you cheated - the old adage..."actions speak louder than words" is appropo here. Coming from someone who cheated on their other parent falls on deaf ears. Sorry.
There has been study upon study showing that when one parent does something the kids tend to do the same thing. Why? Because it puts the kids in a dilemma whereby they have to choose between "Either my parent is bad OR the behaviour is okay?" Pure cognitive dissonance. what most children do because they love their parents is justify their behaviour thus making it okay....that is the gift you gave your children. One of when the going gets tough, you get someone else.


----------



## tonedef

But like the fog I was mentioning, you want something bad enough that you convince yourself everyone will be okay. Well I was wrong. Things are not horrible, okay actually, but I can see some of the effects of it on my kids and there is nothing I can do about it but lend hugs and answer questions honestly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

lenzi said:


> That's like saying "I'm a lion tamer and I'd like to invite you into this cage filled with hungry lions. I've got my whip and I've got this stool that I can turn backwards to help shield you from the big cats so c'mon inside!"


Kind of what I thought too, and that this thread wasn't really about inviting WS into a welcoming environment.


----------



## waylan

Regret214 said:


> I don't think anyone is saying that children aren't affected if the couple divorces. I know I wouldn't say that. I WILL say again that just because someone has an affair does not necessarily mean that they're neglecting their children. To say so is to compare it to drinking, smoking and marijuana use. That's my opinion.
> 
> Not every wayward is as bad or heinous as "yours".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Disagree with you here. You are comparing apples to oranges.

If someone is an alcoholic or drug addict then they are being bad parents. These are things that are comparable to an affair. Having a beer on the weekend is more comparable to seeing a hot person and having naughty thoughts about them. It's about both the short and long term effects that are felt by the entire family.


----------



## Zanne

MattMatt said:


> Except that you stole your children's family from them.


Sigh. You don't know that, MattMatt. Maybe Tonedef and hubby #1 were headed to divorce anyway. Why do you assume SHE is the thief of her children's happiness and well being?

Maybe the children are happier now with happy parents who get along as co-parents, as it indeed sounds according to Tonedef?


----------



## Thor

tonedef said:


> I can understand my parenting being judged on any choices I make but do I deserve to always wear a scarlet letter for that one when I try to make it up to them any way I can and take full responsibility? Also my parents are divorced and there was some back and forth but it didn't bother me, plus I got the BEST step dad in the world. My kids do deserve what I took away and its something that haunts me.


My parents divorced when I and my siblings were in our 20's. So, this isn't exactly the same perspective as a younger child when there is a divorce.

Having said that, I think my parents handled it very well, by emphasizing that the divorce was their territory, and not ours. They wanted us kids to have a good relationship with both parents, and for us to not take sides.

Though we did lose an intact family, and home was never "home" quite the same way again, we did gain some new family when my mom remarried her AP, who has several kids in the same age group as me.

It is not all loss for the kids. As long as the kids are not drawn into the middle of things it can be a fairly healthy situation. The kids will gain new step family, additional friends, a second "home", etc.


----------



## Openminded

SunnyT said:


> It's not adultery that hurts the children. It's divorce. People get divorced for many reasons besides cheating.
> 
> And really, some marriages are so dysfunctional that divorce HELPS the children.... who were already hurt via a crappy marriage.
> 
> Also, bad vs. good parenting is sooooooooooo subjective. Most kids don't know about parents' affairs. (Well, I don't have any statistics on that, I'm guessing.) You can still be a good parent while making stupid choices within the marriage. Is a gambler necessarily a bad parent? Or a slacker? What about an over-achiever? There are too many variables in which we all judge parenting skills.


I have to disagree that adultery doesn't hurt children. I'm one it hurt. And I disagree that "most" children don't know about their parent's affair(s). I did. Children are more perceptive than parents think. 

My mother didn't divorce my father after he cheated. She stayed for me (I was around 13). I wish she hadn't. Up to that point, I had totally adored my father. After that, I could barely look at him. I felt he betrayed our family. And I never changed my mind.


----------



## bigtone128

Zanne said:


> Maybe the children are happier now with happy parents who get along as co-parents, *as it indeed sounds according to Tonedef?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Again - according to tonedef...yes the one who cheated....I bet her spouse would have a different side to the story - you know, the one who did NOT cheat. SIGH..:sleeping:


----------



## Zanne

bigtone128 said:


> But you cheated - the old adage..."actions speak louder than words" is appropo here. Coming from someone who cheated on their other parent falls on deaf ears. Sorry.
> There has been study upon study showing that when one parent does something the kids tend to do the same thing. Why? Because it puts the kids in a dilemma whereby they have to choose between "Either my parent is bad OR the behaviour is okay?" Pure cognitive dissonance. what most children do because they love their parents is justify their behaviour thus making it okay....that is the gift you gave your children. One of when the going gets tough, you get someone else.


What's done is done. She cheated. Are you saying there are no actions for her to redeem herself? Her words should carry as much meaning as any drunk who is now sober and telling their story to a room full of high school kids, warning them not to drink and drive. Words carry meaning!


----------



## manticore

tonedef said:


> One thing though, is there a way one can tell the difference between affair fog and actually feeling real love?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





tonedef said:


> Or can a wayward actually grow to love the ap, but the fog is what makes them try hard to make it attainable? I will be honest- I really did fall for the guy- but the fog in the midst of it all led me to believe everyone will be okay and happy. I hope not to offend by that statement and that thought process does not pertain to all waywards, but to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The fog is not other thing that chemicals in the brains making us feel high in the romance emotion, the fog is not exclusively for WSs and APs, the fog exist for any human.

that is why people refuse to break toxic relationships that are evidently destructives, like women who date drug dealers or confirmed criminals or men who date plain obvious gold diggers or inestable women, the chemicals make them feel everything is alrigth and no wrong can be done by their partners, that is why people that married just little after knowing each other (let say 1 year of less) ends regreting after sometime when the chemicals stop goign throught their system.

real love comes later the fog just helps humans to stay together to copulate and to have kids (evolutionary mechanism), it depends the people together if later that evolves to real love or just the relationship dissaper as the chemicals eventually do.


----------



## Zanne

bigtone128 said:


> Zanne said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the children are happier now with happy parents who get along as co-parents, *as it indeed sounds according to Tonedef?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Again - according to tonedef...yes the one who cheated....I bet her spouse would have a different side to the story - you know, the one who did NOT cheat. SIGH..:sleeping:
> 
> 
> 
> You can take that attitude, sure. But I don't think it is the atmosphere that Rookie had in mind for this thread.
> 
> You can believe Tonedef or not, your choice. However, when you publicly discount her story, the only reason being that she is a WS (and therefore can't be trusted), why would she bother to keep posting?
Click to expand...


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> The effects of adultery on children are very important, but can be discussed on another thread. This thread is about inviting waywards to join our merry band and feeling safe while here.


I wasn't the one who brought up the affects on kids, that was someone else so you can talk to them about the thread derailment


----------



## bigtone128

Zanne said:


> Maybe the children are happier now with happy parents who get along as co-parents, *as it indeed sounds according to Tonedef*?


There you go - ACCORDING to the one who cheated....Put the faithful person on here and I will bet they will have a different story. My ex spewed on and on about how horrible I was and the marriage was - then come 2 years later - she wants this horrible person, marriage and family back...again sorry not buying it!
In research field they call this post hoc rationalization. SIGH!


----------



## Marduk

Thor said:


> My parents divorced when I and my siblings were in our 20's. So, this isn't exactly the same perspective as a younger child when there is a divorce.
> 
> Having said that, I think my parents handled it very well, by emphasizing that the divorce was their territory, and not ours. They wanted us kids to have a good relationship with both parents, and for us to not take sides.
> 
> Though we did lose an intact family, and home was never "home" quite the same way again, we did gain some new family when my mom remarried her AP, who has several kids in the same age group as me.
> 
> It is not all loss for the kids. As long as the kids are not drawn into the middle of things it can be a fairly healthy situation. The kids will gain new step family, additional friends, a second "home", etc.


I had a similar situation, and would argue that the cheating spouse is still rolling the dice.

I responded to my parents splitting up positively, as I did with several traumatic events in my life. By trying to focus on my parent's now individual happiness.

My sister didn't, as she didn't with most traumatic events in her life. She chose to take sides, cause all kinds of drama, and to be the victim in all of it. 

People respond to things in different ways. Just because it can be OK or even beneficial doesn't mean you aren't risking things.

Oh, and even though I responded positively to my parent's splitting, it caused all kinds of trouble in my marriage at the time. Because "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" stuff. So even as an adult I bore the brunt sometimes for my dad's decisions.


----------



## Zanne

bigtone128 said:


> There you go - ACCORDING to the one who cheated....Put the faithful person on here and I will bet they will have a different story. My ex spewed on and on about how horrible I was and the marriage was - then come 2 years later - she wants this horrible person, marriage and family back...again sorry not buying it!
> In research field they call this post hoc rationalization. SIGH!


And there are plenty of BS's on here and people in the divorce forum who did not see it coming because they were such perfect spouses. They will tell you a different story too. The truth is probably somewhere in between.


----------



## Jung_admirer

tonedef said:


> I was a wayward in my last marriage and ended up marrying him. I found this site while looking for help because of marital problems (go figure). Everything is fine now but I will say this site has opened my eyes to the hurt I caused in my last marriage. *Only thing I do not get is how waywards are bad parents?* I think it is selfish but I never neglected my kids and my ex and I coparent great. Hope this isn't considered thread jacking, and I guess I don't need advice (or do I?) but I will say I have learned my lesson and have way better boundaries now.


Leo Buscaglia was famously quoted, "You cannot give what you do not have". Professor Buscaglia was talking about love, but doesn't the same idea apply to character? And isn't it one of the primary responsibilities of parenthood to provide the boundaries for good character development? Can I teach children about baseball knowing nothing of the game?


----------



## bigtone128

Zanne said:


> bigtone128 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can believe Tonedef or not, your choice. However, when you publicly discount her story, the only reason being that she is a WS (and therefore can't be trusted), why would she bother to keep posting?
> 
> 
> 
> 1) It IS a public website - so yes, when she posts her story it will be publicly scrutinized.
> 
> 2) It is not our purpose on here (at least mine) to just accept carte blanche what everyone says on here. My premise is that WSs have done a lot of hurt and pain and suffering to those they espouse to love the most - their spouses, families and children. and how they did this is by (at least in my ex WS's case) surrounding themselves by people who accepted their rationalizations, accepted their dishonesty, accepted their selfishness, etc. and did not confront them with the truth. And I believe if they are NOT confronted with the truth about how they did what they did, why they did what they did, the damaged they caused their spouses, families and children then no growth can come from it AND they will be susceptible to do it again. PERIOD! So if the come on here and expect a "oh that was too bad" and "oh you are right". I am not the person to give it to them. I feel an obligation to their current spouse and children to set them straight. If they cannot handle that - then well - it speaks volumes as to how sincere they are and perhaps that was the problem to begin with.
Click to expand...


----------



## MattMatt

tonedef said:


> And a lot of his boundaries (or lack of) is from having too much trust and innocent thinking. Example, while married, he befriended an ex of mine and would invite him over (nothing happened) and he would go out to lunch with a female coworker who apparently complained to him how horrible her husband was. Both of those are trouble. But he truly had no ill intentions and still has the mindset that its still okay. I had the same mindset of opposite sex friends and lack of boundaries but ending up falling in love. That is how easily it can happen. I learned a lot from that mainly because of this site. I told him about this forum last year but he wasnt interested...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then it is OK for him. Until maybe such time as it isn't.


----------



## michzz

I haven't read through this entire thread, but the topic seems to come up about parenting, whether or not a wayward spouse is or is not a bad parent.

Maybe in the sense of not neglecting physical needs a wayward spouse can be a good parent. Cleaning up after, feeding kids, getting them schooled.

However, as a moral authority to their children? Major failure there.

I saw it with my own ex-wife.

Once the kids, late teens, early 20s, learned the truth of her many years of cheating, there was no way in heck that she could tell them how to behave in life.

She had no credibility.

And it made them both question how she mothered them, every time she missed a soccer match or a school performance or didn't go on a family trip was called into question--did she lie about why she couldn't be there?

Kids are smart, they know once alerted to the affair, what she was doing instead of participating in their needs.

That has a huge negative impact on the kids.

And it is a sign of bad parenting to choose destructive selfishness over honorable living.

We have parted and my kids stay in contact with the ex, but they see her not as what they used to, it is hard for them to have their illusions of motherhood destroyed.

So they lean on me to be consistent and not a screw up.

I don't find that to be hard, but I see the price on them and even on their mom.


----------



## staystrong

ToneDef, I hope you will stay on. 

Zanne, Pluto2 is right.. that's what I was essentially saying. I think all of us agree that divorce is the MUCH preferred option to infidelity. 

Most people who fall in love, live together (married or otherwise) and have children don't plan on getting divorced. I'm talking about the general run-of-the-mill marriage where two people ostensibly love and care for another, have sex twice a week, plan their weekends with friends and family, date nights when they can get them, etc. They like attention from the opposite sex from time to time but they block it (maybe after a little flirting) and go back to the happy home. Maybe they have mini-EA's without being aware of what those even are. Basically, a stable healthy marriage where some things may be missing but they count their blessings. They intend to spend the rest of their lives together as a couple, a force, a team. They mostly bring up issues if they have them and they think they give those issues their due importance. Those marriages run the risk of becoming routine and sometimes one of the spouses falls victim to attraction and opportunity. Those aren't marriages which should fail, by any sensible measure. But they do because of an outside influence, when the thought of "I can't do this to my spouse or family" is overridden. Dopamine trumps .. what's the mature love bonding chemical again? Anyhow, that's the setup. What once seemed unbreakable has now in reality become very fragile. Worse, the person they married has become a nightmare to them. An alien, an enemy. That's the reality for a lot of people who show up on these boards. Some married bad apples, true, but many just married someone who let their guard down and followed the wayward path. 


My question to ToneDef was in regard to how her husband dismissed her issues. I'd really like to know what she specifically said to him and what his response was. This is a complaint often made and I'd like to know more about the thought process there.


----------



## Regret214

Well, Rookie...as has been tried in the past, any attempt to create a "safe" or "inviting" thread devolves this way. Thanks for your try to get any wayward that might be lurking to actually post and look for help in their coping. I think, yet again, they are validated for remaining lurkers.


----------



## Regret214

Jung_admirer said:


> Leo Buscaglia was famously quoted, "You cannot give what you do not have". Professor Buscaglia was talking about love, but doesn't the same idea apply to character? And isn't it one of the primary responsibilities of parenthood to provide the boundaries for good character development? Can I teach children about baseball knowing nothing of the game?


I disagree wholeheartedly. Your premise is that someone who has an affair never once had good character. 

While I may never have played soccer, I knew the basics of the game since I played collegiate level field hockey. I was awarded Best Coach of the Spring Season 2012.


----------



## bigtone128

michzz said:


> However, as a moral authority to their children? Major failure there.
> 
> I saw it with my own ex-wife.
> 
> Once the kids, late teens, early 20s, learned the truth of her many years of cheating, there was no way in heck that she could tell them how to behave in life.
> 
> She had no credibility.
> 
> Kids are smart, they know once alerted to the affair, what she was doing instead of participating in their needs.
> 
> That has a huge negative impact on the kids.
> 
> And it is a sign of bad parenting to choose destructive selfishness over honorable living.
> 
> We have parted and my kids stay in contact with the ex, but they see her not as what they used to, it is hard for them to have their illusions of motherhood destroyed.
> 
> So they lean on me to be consistent and not a screw up.
> 
> I don't find that to be hard, but I see the price on them and even on their mom.


:iagree:


----------



## Lovemytruck

Zanne said:


> What's done is done. She cheated. Are you saying there are no actions for her to redeem herself? Her words should carry as much meaning as any drunk who is now sober and telling their story to a room full of high school kids, warning them not to drink and drive. Words carry meaning!


Good point.

I am a BH, and I understand the bitter pain of betrayal.

There comes a time when the bitterness becomes toxic to those around us. Maybe that is why "forgiveness" is often a topic of these threads. The bitterness might blind us from moving ahead, allow our children to enjoy step-parents, and allowing children to feel it is ok to love their unfaithful parent.

I am now a step-dad to 3 children in addition to 2 sons from my first wife. It becomes very important to me to put my negative feelings aside, and allow my exWW to be a mother to my sons, and to support my step-children and their involvement with their dad. They all know the basic causes of the D, but it is not their place to hate parents because of the wrongs they have committed. Our situation involves 5 children from 24-15. It would be harder with younger kids, IMO.

Ironically my exWW did poison my younger son against me when I decided to D after her betrayal. It took 2 years for him to open up again toward me. He knew of her affair, but my choice to D was not understood by him. He blamed me. Patience has helped. I wish kids were not forced or shamed into picking sides.

Long story short, I appreciate *tonedef* or any insights from former WSs. It helps complete the puzzle with missing pieces. I learn from them part of the "why" that my WW never could give me.


----------



## Zanne

bigtone128 said:


> Zanne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1) It IS a public website - so yes, when she posts her story it will be publicly scrutinized.
> 
> 2) It is not our purpose on here (at least mine) to just accept carte blanche what everyone says on here. My premise is that WSs have done a lot of hurt and pain and suffering to those they espouse to love the most - their spouses, families and children. and how they did this is by (at least in my ex WS's case) surrounding themselves by people who accepted their rationalizations, accepted their dishonesty, accepted their selfishness, etc. and did not confront them with the truth. And I believe if they are NOT confronted with the truth about how they did what they did, why they did what they did, the damaged they caused their spouses, families and children then no growth can come from it AND they will be susceptible to do it again. PERIOD! So if the come on here and expect a "oh that was too bad" and "oh you are right". I am not the person to give it to them. I feel an obligation to their current spouse and children to set them straight. If they cannot handle that - then well - it speaks volumes as to how sincere they are and perhaps that was the problem to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> You know what? I actually agree with what you wrote. And if anybody thinks I condone affairs, that is NOT true.
> 
> I think blanket statements (i.e. all cheaters are liers) are not helpful, particularly when they are said without knowing the situation.
> 
> There is a place for such statements, yes. But sometimes it is overkill around here! That's when you start to lose new BS posters and it's also why most WS's tiptoe right on out of here. IMO.
Click to expand...


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> I disagree wholeheartedly. Your premise is that someone who has an affair never once had good character.
> 
> While I may never have played soccer, I knew the basics of the game since I played collegiate level field hockey. I was awarded Best Coach of the Spring Season 2012.


I think with this it absolutely depends on the person/cheater.

A mother who cheated but accepts her own faults and wrongdoing to her family certainly could have a lessons to teach their own children about not making selfish or Immoral choices. I agree with that.

For those that take no blame and justify, which is so commonly associated with cheaters, they really are the last person you want teaching morality to children


----------



## bigtone128

Zanne said:


> And there are plenty of BS's on here and people in the divorce forum who did not see it coming because they were such perfect spouses. They will tell you a different story too. The truth is probably somewhere in between.


Point being - it does not justify cheating..is that what you are saying? The faithful spouse did not cheat - get it? the truth being somewhere in between - one cheated - the other did not. SIGH!


----------



## Zanne

Lovemytruck said:


> Good point.
> 
> I am a BH, and I understand the bitter pain of betrayal.
> 
> There comes a time when the bitterness becomes toxic to those around us. Maybe that is why "forgiveness" is often a topic of these threads. The bitterness might blind us from moving ahead, allow our children to enjoy step-parents, and allowing children feel it is ok to love their unfaithful parent.
> 
> I am now a step-dad to 3 children in addition to 2 sons from my first wife. It becomes very important to me to put my negative feelings aside, and allow my exWW to be a mother to my sons, and to support my step-children and their involvement with their dad. They all know the basic causes of the D, but it is not their place to hate parents because of the wrongs they have committed. Our situation involve 5 children from 24-15. It would be harder with younger kids, IMO.
> 
> Ironically my exWW did poison my younger son against me when I decided to D after her betrayal. It took 2 years for him to open up again toward me. He knew of her affair, but my choice to D was not understood by him. He blamed me. Patience has helped. I wish kids were not forced or shamed into picking sides.
> 
> Long story short, I appreciate *tonedef* or any insights from former WSs. It helps complete the puzzle with missing pieces. I learn from them part of the "why" that my WW never could give me.


I would also like to add that in addition to the insight offered by Tonedef, she may be seeking support here and she can benefit in turn. It sounds like she already has.


----------



## tonedef

Jung- but can you learn baseball then teach it? I know my character sucked then. My ex was a good father and husband. We had no passion though. We never made out (he thought tongue was icky), sex was almost nonexistent, we were like roommates that parented. I should have taken the high road and just left but I chose to cheat. My kids were happy and I took it away. My kids are okay with a two parent home. Going to dads is a vacation from my screaming 4 month old lol. But they seem happy here to. My ex comes over once a week to bring them dinner. My husband bonds with them plus they now have two younger siblings they adore. They are pretty content but I know theyd be happier with one household. But this is what they know, as said by another poster. And with me learning from all this- about boundaries, communication, ea's and how dangerous they are, I can speak to them from experience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bigtone128

well Zanne glad we have some common ground....I may be blunt and direct (something my ex admired and despised) but behind it is someone who has a low tolerance for BS and cares about families and more importantly children.


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## staystrong

tonedef said:


> Jung- but can you learn baseball then teach it? I know my character sucked then. My ex was a good father and husband. We had no passion though. We never made out (he thought tongue was icky), sex was almost nonexistent, we were like roommates that parented. I should have taken the high road and just left but I chose to cheat. My kids were happy and I took it away. My kids are okay with a two parent home. Going to dads is a vacation from my screaming 4 month old lol. But they seem happy here to. My ex comes over once a week to bring them dinner. My husband bonds with them plus they now have two younger siblings they adore. They are pretty content but I know theyd be happier with one household. But this is what they know, as said by another poster. And with me learning from all this- about boundaries, communication, ea's and how dangerous they are, I can speak to them from experience.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Would it make me a bad person if I refused to accept my Ex's new child into my home? I have nothing against an innocent child, I just prefer not to know her.


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## staystrong

Zanne,

I read a bit of your thread. Your main complaint is one I am trying to address here with ToneDef. In your case, you admit that you internalized your disappointment with your husband's laziness, hygiene, etc. because you didn't want to hurt his feelings. How do you interpret that now? Just curious. Are you more straightforward?


----------



## bandit.45

bigtone128 said:


> There you go - ACCORDING to the one who cheated....Put the faithful person on here and I will bet they will have a different story. My ex spewed on and on about how horrible I was and the marriage was - then come 2 years later - she wants this horrible person, marriage and family back...again sorry not buying it!
> In research field they call this post hoc rationalization. SIGH!



Bigtone I think what we are trying to get across to you is that you cannot lump all way wards into one basket. I used to think you could but I've learned a lot since then. BT your ex is a cold hearted, lying, sociopathic, manipulative b!tch of the first order. We get that. No ones arguing that point. 

Here we have a gal who is coming on and being as real as she can be. She's not blame shifting or rationalizing. She has expressed her remorse and sorrow for what she did to her exBH and her kids. I don't perceive any gas lighting here. 

Dude if we chase off every wayward or ex-wayward who comes on this forum, then why the fvck have a forum? How are you going to learn anything if you don't hear from both sides?

I think you need to chill out a little.


----------



## Zanne

bigtone128 said:


> Point being - it does not justify cheating..is that what you are saying? The faithful spouse did not cheat - get it? the truth being somewhere in between - one cheated - the other did not. SIGH!


No justifications for cheating. But how do you feel about affairs being a symptom of a failing marriage? Not all marriages, of course.

And I'm not saying that someone is temporarily insane and not acting according to their core beliefs. I believe for some people, the capability to cheat is already there. But they can change.


----------



## Jung_admirer

tonedef said:


> Jung- but can you learn (character) then teach it?


Absolutely ... that would be the best possible decision for everyone involved. We can certainly improve our character, own our failings and make amends as appropriate. There is a lot to this though and most WS will refuse to do this work. Perhaps this is why successful R are so rare (?)


----------



## bigtone128

tonedef said:


> Jung- but can you learn baseball then teach it? I know my character sucked then. My ex was a good father and husband. We had no passion though. We never made out (he thought tongue was icky), sex was almost nonexistent, we were like roommates that parented. I should have taken the high road and just left but I chose to cheat. My kids were happy and I took it away. My kids are okay with a two parent home. Going to dads is a vacation from my screaming 4 month old lol. But they seem happy here to. My ex comes over once a week to bring them dinner. My husband bonds with them plus they now have two younger siblings they adore. They are pretty content but I know theyd be happier with one household. But this is what they know, as said by another poster. And with me learning from all this- about boundaries, communication, ea's and how dangerous they are, I can speak to them from experience.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


okay I understand your post tonedef....yes it is over - and as my dad used to say 'no sense looking up a dead cow's behind". true enough. Yes kids adapt - they HAVE to.
To your point about being sexless marriage - mine was too for a LONG time. And I know she would probably say much similar as you would say (although I liked tongue) BUT it was not that way because I wanted it that way. She treated me like a mule to bring home the bacon and when I did well - she would just be nice to me and when I did not - old hell would break loose. So How does a man feel loved in a situation like that? Did I feel like get down and dirty with her after 5 minutes ago of her reaming me out over some small crap. Over time things just dissipated. It was like a standoff. I truly deeply loved her we lived through a lot together. If she brought up those issues with me - I would have worked on them - she chose to go outside to meet her needs. Passion comes when barriers are broke down. Our marriage broke before the barriers did.

So the question I have is this......what attempts were made to address the issues? Do you see any similar issues in this relationship?
Because I have found wherever I go - I take me with me. So I tend to repeat patterns until I have learned the lesson.


----------



## staystrong

Zanne said:


> No justifications for cheating. But how do you feel about affairs being a symptom of a failing marriage? Not all marriages, of course.
> 
> And I'm not saying that someone is temporarily insane and not acting according to their core beliefs. I believe for some people, the capability to cheat is already there. But they can change.


Personally, I see it as a symptom of the failure of one or both parties to address their issues, and if they can't, then end the relationship. Most people who get into a repetitive situation of "this isn't working" need to be prompted to take real action. And if things don't improve, then amicably divorce (as much as possible). 

I understand that people are sometimes in desperate need of comfort and love, and some affairs do result out of a shoulder to cry on and the other person wanting to support this hurting woman/man, if that's what you're getting at. I have some sympathy for that type of affair, especially if there is real neglect or rejection involved. I can see this happening in 20+ year marriages, for example. Or awkwardly in younger marriages where one party is depressed, unfit, a loner, etc.


----------



## tonedef

Staystrong- not at all. If my husband left me then had a kid I wouldnt wanna look at it either. Lol MattMatt, just maybe. He really needs to come to this forum. Honestly I take marriage a lot more seriously now. Sadly I didnt give my first husband that same benefit. He deserved that chance and so did my kids. I am just doing damage control and not making the same mistakes so I dont put my kids through another divorce. I'm sorry I havent figured out how to respond to individual posts but those of you that say I should stick around, thank y'all!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

tonedef said:


> Staystrong- not at all. If my husband left me then had a kid I wouldnt wanna look at it either. Lol MattMatt, just maybe. He really needs to come to this forum. Honestly I take marriage a lot more seriously now. Sadly I didnt give my first husband that same benefit. He deserved that chance and so did my kids. I am just doing damage control and not making the same mistakes so I dont put my kids through another divorce. I'm sorry I havent figured out how to respond to individual posts but those of you that say I should stick around, thank y'all!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


TD, at the bottom left of the post is a button entitled "quote". Click it and a dialogue box opens with the post in quotes. Type your response after the final [/QUOTE]


----------



## Zanne

staystrong said:


> Zanne,
> 
> I read a bit of your thread. Your main complaint is one I am trying to address here with ToneDef. In your case, you admit that you internalized your disappointment with your husband's laziness, hygiene, etc. because you didn't want to hurt his feelings. How do you interpret that now? Just curious. Are you more straightforward?


We are divorcing, so I refrain from upsetting him as I feel it would be adding insult to injury. And actually, he has been taking better care of himself lately and staying busy with friends, etc. I'm happy for him. I wish that it could be enough. I know it's not. He is still very hurt.

However, with my BF/OM, I am keen to not let things go. He's not a mind reader! I realize that now. I am still learning to drop 25 years of passive aggressive behavior too - as is he, I might add. We are both motivated to making it work. I'm sorry if that offends most people here.

If I had a do-over, I would have attempted some of the things I'm doing with OM - openness, being more straightforward with my needs, etc., but I honestly believe that I would still be divorcing.


----------



## staystrong

Jung_admirer said:


> Absolutely ... that would be the best possible decision for everyone involved. We can certainly improve our character, own our failings and make amends as appropriate. There is a lot to this though and most WS will refuse to do this work. Perhaps this is why successful R are so rare (?)


I think it's still more about basic feelings than higher level notions of improving character. Still more about do they still feel something for the AP, or anything for their spouse, are they afraid of being alone, not having security, afraid they could cheat again, and.. very important.. that damn human pride which hates having to be the repentant one.


----------



## staystrong

Zanne said:


> We are divorcing, so I refrain from upsetting him as I feel it would be adding insult to injury. And actually, he has been taking better care of himself lately and staying busy with friends, etc. I'm happy for him. I wish that it could be enough. I know it's not. He is still very hurt.
> 
> However, with my BF/OM, I am keen to not let things go. He's not a mind reader! I realize that now. I am still learning to drop 25 years of passive aggressive behavior too - as is he, I might add. We are both motivated to making it work. I'm sorry if that offends most people here.
> 
> If I had a do-over, I would have attempted some of the things I'm doing with OM - openness, being more straightforward with my needs, etc., but I honestly believe that I would still be divorcing.



I think this happens all too often. Your marriage was too long for it to be labelled a learner marriage, but the point about "he's not a mind reader" is so indicative of much of male/female communication. I think my marriage must have had a lot of that before the A. I simply don't understand why someone just doesn't say what they are feeling, even if it runs the risk of being hurtful. I mean, you're married.. who else can you just be yourself with? That's sort of what it's all about.


----------



## bigtone128

tonedef said:


> I am just doing damage control and not making the same mistakes so I dont put my kids through another divorce. I'm sorry I havent figured out how to respond to individual posts but those of you that say I should stick around, thank y'all!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hear you tonedef.....but I have learned a lot about myself through this.
1) I tend to attract similar personalities.
2) Listen to what others say about me - for example I found an email my ex sent to another friend which called me aloof. I was offended and denied it - then I started dating and 3 different women have called me aloof....I do not think I am but truth is I do not express myself well in relationships. that is MY part to play in relationships. So I need to be more clear and expressive in my intimate relationships. That was my part to play in the break down of the marriage. I regret that.

So I think if you look closely you could find your own things to be cognizant of in relationships. Just a suggestion.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Jung_admirer said:


> ... We can certainly improve our character, own our failings and make amends as appropriate. There is a lot to this though and most WS will refuse to do this work. Perhaps this is why successful R are so rare (?)


Good thought.

I wonder if WSs learn the lessons better when they eventually go through a D, especially if they would have preferred to R with the BS.

I hear WSs (on TAM) and wayward friends say things to indicate that the really do "get it." Much like we hear it from Regret, Mrs. JA, EI, tonedef.

I wonder if many of the repeat offenders just don't feel all that bad because of the lack of consequences, or lack of empathy.

We all become better when lessons are learned. I really believe my exWW is better today than she was prior to our D. I would never want her back, but it probably helped her be a better wife for husband #2.


----------



## staystrong

tonedef said:


> Staystrong- not at all. If my husband left me then had a kid I wouldnt wanna look at it either. Lol MattMatt, just maybe. He really needs to come to this forum. Honestly I take marriage a lot more seriously now. Sadly I didnt give my first husband that same benefit. He deserved that chance and so did my kids. I am just doing damage control and not making the same mistakes so I dont put my kids through another divorce. I'm sorry I havent figured out how to respond to individual posts but those of you that say I should stick around, thank y'all!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like your husband was/is the typical Nice Guy. Maybe you should slip a copy of NMMNG in his mailbox. 

I think your additional reason of not wanting to divorce again for the kid's sake is very practical and long-ranging.

Can I ask you.. how long had you been married and how old were your kids at the time?


----------



## tonedef

Bigtone- I am sorry if I brought out any ill feelings. I never want to offend anyone or be hated or lumped in the same category as a lying serial cheater. I cheated with one man that I ended up marrying. I wish I was a lurking wayward then but now it is too late. I will always do my best to offer any insight of my own when asked though and if a wayward needs a swift kick back to reality I am here for that too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## staystrong

tonedef said:


> Bigtone- I am sorry if I brought out any ill feelings. I never want to offend anyone or be hated or lumped in the same category as a lying serial cheater. I cheated with one man that I ended up marrying. I wish I was a lurking wayward then but now it is too late. I will always do my best to offer any insight of my own when asked though and if a wayward needs a swift kick back to reality I am here for that too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But you did have to lie, right? Doesn't that go part and parcel with an affair?


----------



## Lovemytruck

Zanne said:


> We are divorcing, so I refrain from upsetting him as I feel it would be adding insult to injury. And actually, he has been taking better care of himself lately and staying busy with friends, etc. I'm happy for him. I wish that it could be enough. I know it's not. He is still very hurt.
> 
> However, with my BF/OM, I am keen to not let things go. He's not a mind reader! I realize that now. I am still learning to drop 25 years of passive aggressive behavior too - as is he, I might add. We are both motivated to making it work. I'm sorry if that offends most people here.
> 
> If I had a do-over, I would have attempted some of the things I'm doing with OM - openness, being more straightforward with my needs, etc., but I honestly believe that I would still be divorcing.


I don't like where you have been, but I like where you are heading.

The silver lining for us is we have perspective. I learned more about life and myself from a betrayal than any other event. I would say it exceeds the loss of infant twins, raising 2 kids, going through 6 years of college, etc.

Whatever side of the betrayal you have been on, use it to become a better person. Make your new relationships better. Be more compassionate. Learn to help yourself and those that suffer.

I appreciate the fact that you have faced your demons.


----------



## bandit.45

Zanne said:


> We are divorcing, so I refrain from upsetting him as I feel it would be adding insult to injury. And actually, he has been taking better care of himself lately and staying busy with friends, etc. I'm happy for him. I wish that it could be enough. I know it's not. He is still very hurt.
> 
> However, with my BF/OM, I am keen to not let things go. He's not a mind reader! I realize that now. I am still learning to drop 25 years of passive aggressive behavior too - as is he, I might add. We are both motivated to making it work. I'm sorry if that offends most people here.
> 
> If I had a do-over, I would have attempted some of the things I'm doing with OM - openness, being more straightforward with my needs, etc., but I honestly believe that I would still be divorcing.



You understand though that the stats are against it working out in the long term for you and the OM? If you and him will cheat on others then there is a much higher possibility you will cheat on each other of you don't deal with your issues and boundary problems. You also need to make the biggest apology to your STBXBH that you can and not leave any loose ends in that marriage. Leaving a marriage for an affair is never a positive. Yeah some positives may come from it, but you need to do allot of soul searching as well as doing what you canto help your ex heal from your decision. Don't just walk away like he doesn't matter.


----------



## Philat

vellocet said:


> Kind of what I thought too, and that this thread wasn't really about inviting WS into a welcoming environment.


I don't agree--I have no doubt Rookie is sincere in wanting to offer a (comparatively) safe environment for those on the WS side of the coin. Not unlike the need to provide one's own WS a safe environment for telling the whole truth if one wants it.

*Note to staystrong:* You know I have supported and respected you in the past, but in the interest of full disclosure I think you should tell your entire history here (not just half of it). You have more in common with tonedef than is evident from your posts on this thread.


----------



## bandit.45

tonedef said:


> Bigtone- I am sorry if I brought out any ill feelings. I never want to offend anyone or be hated or lumped in the same category as a lying serial cheater. I cheated with one man that I ended up marrying. I wish I was a lurking wayward then but now it is too late. I will always do my best to offer any insight of my own when asked though and if a wayward needs a swift kick back to reality I am here for that too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You haven't offended anyone. Bigtone chose poorly. I did. You and your ex chose poorly. We all did.


----------



## Philat

ReformedHubby said:


> Interesting topic. For the record I'm a former wayward. I was about as bad as it gets because I was a serial. At the time I did not have children. I know this will sound bad (especially coming from a wayward). But I've never subscribed to the common statement that if you cheat on your wife you are cheating on your kids. I feel this way because the assumption that all waywards are bad parents is like saying that all betrayed spouses are perfect parents.
> 
> My father was wayward as well, one could argue that I became a wayward because he was but that would only be part of the story. Would they take into account that he was one of the only dads in my neighborhood who didn't drink himself into a beer coma after work? That he taught me to value education and to always strive to better myself. He was basically the dad that all the other kids wished was their dad. Looking back I turned out much better than all of my childhood friends and I have my father to thank for it.
> 
> Three weeks from now I will be introducing him as he receives an award from the city for his contributions to the community. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, the fact that he was a serial cheater did not make him a failure as a father. My mother would tell you the same. Had she put him out on the street for his infidelities, the odds of me being dead or in jail would have been significantly higher.


RH's story shows just how complex is the question of what does or does not make a good parent.


----------



## tonedef

Pluto- all there is is a reply button on my phone lol. Bigtone- that gives me something to think about so thank you. Staystrong- my ex and i were together 4 years and were married 3 years and at the time of divorce, our sons were 1 and 3. My husband and i now have been together 5 years and married 3. Thing is, I didnt lie. I told him where I was and who i was with because I dont find excitement in that and also if I was going to screw around I felt I at least owed him the truth. I know it doesmt make me all noble, but I was honest about things. I guess to feel less guilty about what I was doing also. I guess there is selfish tendancies in affairs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Zanne said:


> No justifications for cheating. But how do you feel about affairs being a symptom of a failing marriage? Not all marriages, of course.


Are you trying to justify cheating....after just saying no justifications?

Cheating, is a person being weak, lazy and selfish as a solution to a bad marriage.

There are situations where I can understand WHY someone cheated, but I still don't agree with it. Just like I can understand why, as a country we're at war, or someone kills another person...I can understand....but not agree with it.

The problem with allowing the "bad marriage" as an excuse in any way is that what is real versus what is perceived? Many WS's invent problems because it helps them internalize the poor behavior and choices they're making. They will create an image of their marriage which is much worse that it really is. They're like a hypochondriac looking at a cut.

Sometimes it's hard to know reality versus perception, even for the WS.


----------



## bandit.45

Dad&Hubby said:


> The problem with allowing the "bad marriage" as an excuse in any way is that what is real versus what is perceived? Many WS's invent problems because it helps them internalize the poor behavior and choices they're making. They will create an image of their marriage which is much worse that it really is. They're like a hypochondriac looking at a cut.
> 
> Sometimes it's hard to know reality versus perception, even for the WS.


Now I totally agree with this. All waywards need to examine this and make amends if this is indeed what they do.


----------



## tonedef

Bandit- like you were telling zanne and if it means anything, I did apologize to my ex. He deserved the closure and to know I do have a heart afterall after being so heartless. My kids deserve me apologizing to their father. I wanted to put and keep it in the past after learning from it all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

tonedef said:


> Bandit- like you were telling zanne and if it means anything, I did apologize to my ex. He deserved the closure and to know I do have a heart afterall after being so heartless. My kids deserve me apologizing to their father. I wanted to put and keep it in the past after learning from it all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A sincere and detailed apology goes very far in the aftermath. Unfortunately; it often seems to a difficult thing to do - maybe because it conflicts too much with justifications. You seem sincere.


----------



## Philat

Zanne said:


> No justifications for cheating.* But how do you feel about affairs being a symptom of a failing marriage?* Not all marriages, of course.


Not buying the symptom argument. Nor did Billy Crystal in When Harry Met Sally (a movie with a great deal of wisdom in it):

*Jess: Marriages don't break up on account of infidelity. It's just a symptom that something else is wrong.

Harry Burns: Oh really? Well, that "symptom" is fvcking my wife. *


----------



## staystrong

Philat said:


> I don't agree--I have no doubt Rookie is sincere in wanting to offer a (comparatively) safe environment for those on the WS side of the coin. Not unlike the need to provide one's own WS a safe environment for telling the whole truth if one wants it.
> 
> *Note to staystrong:* You know I have supported and respected you in the past, but in the interest of full disclosure I think you should tell your entire history here (not just half of it). You have more in common with tonedef than is evident from your posts on this thread.


Agreed. Yes, in the interest of full disclosure...

I became the OM very shortly after my XW and I met. It was an abrupt initial PA turned long distance A. No children involved; I knew no one in her circle, nor her mine. I was her second affair; became an exit one at that point, I presume.


----------



## tonedef

Cpacan- thank you. Even in the midst of the affair, I never justified it. I was in love and happy but sad for my ex, but the om was a distraction at times of feeling sad for my ex. Once the ''fog'' left I was still in love, but I started to reflect back on it more and started feeling the guilt. I apologized to him after reading this forum because that is when things actually hit home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## staystrong

tonedef said:


> Bandit- like you were telling zanne and if it means anything, I did apologize to my ex. He deserved the closure and to know I do have a heart afterall after being so heartless. My kids deserve me apologizing to their father. I wanted to put and keep it in the past after learning from it all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Curious.. what's the timeline on that? Before or after divorce? Was he bitter at the time? How did he react?


----------



## staystrong

tonedef said:


> Cpacan- thank you. Even in the midst of the affair, I never justified it. I was in love and happy but sad for my ex, but the om was a distraction at times of feeling sad for my ex. Once the ''fog'' left I was still in love, but I started to reflect back on it more and started feeling the guilt. I apologized to him after reading this forum because that is when things actually hit home.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Did you go through cycles of trying to break it off, only to be drawn back in again? Did you try to improve things at home with your H or revive the relationship? You know, ask yourself why you originally fell in love with him?


----------



## tonedef

I apologized after the divorce. He told me all is forgiven, it's in the past and he's sorry for his part in it. I told him didnt need to apologize. While we both contributed to the breakdown of our marriage, I own how I took it out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doubletrouble

This is the longest thread about waywards I think I've ever read, that didn't go completely into the toilet. 

Kudos to all y'all. This is encouraging for all of TAM.


----------



## vellocet

doubletrouble said:


> This is the longest thread about waywards I think I've ever read, that didn't go completely into the toilet.
> 
> Kudos to all y'all. This is encouraging for all of TAM.


Well it does help when the waywards participating own their choices and don't try to blame their BS.


----------



## staystrong

tonedef said:


> Pluto- all there is is a reply button on my phone lol. Bigtone- that gives me something to think about so thank you. Staystrong- my ex and i were together 4 years and were married 3 years and at the time of divorce, our sons were 1 and 3. My husband and i now have been together 5 years and married 3. Thing is, I didnt lie. I told him where I was and who i was with because I dont find excitement in that and also if I was going to screw around I felt I at least owed him the truth. I know it doesmt make me all noble, but I was honest about things. I guess to feel less guilty about what I was doing also. I guess there is selfish tendancies in affairs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hold on. You told him where you were and who you were with... but under the guise that you were doing what together?


----------



## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> Bigtone I think what we are trying to get across to you is that you cannot lump all way wards into one basket. I used to think you could but I've learned a lot since then. BT your ex is a cold hearted, lying, sociopathic, manipulative b!tch of the first order. We get that. No ones arguing that point.
> 
> Here we have a gal who is coming on and being as real as she can be. She's not blame shifting or rationalizing. She has expressed her remorse and sorrow for what she did to her exBH and her kids. I don't perceive any gas lighting here.
> 
> Dude if we chase off every wayward or ex-wayward who comes on this forum, then why the fvck have a forum? How are you going to learn anything if you don't hear from both sides?
> 
> I think you need to chill out a little.


:iagree:


----------



## MattMatt

tonedef said:


> Staystrong- not at all. If my husband left me then had a kid I wouldnt wanna look at it either. Lol MattMatt, just maybe. He really needs to come to this forum. Honestly I take marriage a lot more seriously now. Sadly I didnt give my first husband that same benefit. He deserved that chance and so did my kids. I am just doing damage control and not making the same mistakes so I dont put my kids through another divorce. I'm sorry I havent figured out how to respond to individual posts but those of you that say I should stick around, thank y'all!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We all learn as we get older. 

Actually I can cover both sides of this debate as I have been cheated on several times and was my now wife's workplace AP. We have been together 25 years, now.


----------



## lenzi

staystrong said:


> Hold on. You told him where you were and who you were with... but under the guise that you were doing what together?


Seems pretty clear from her post that she told him exactly what she was doing.


----------



## Turin74

Tonedef, 

One of your previous posts (the one when you talk about your ex getting mad about his friend asking you for pictures but doing actually nothing) explains this. With the standard disclaimer that this doesn't justifies cheating on understand you wanted out. I wish you'd find a better way out - guessing you'd be happier these days when your life looks to settle. Hope it won't come back to bite you one day. 





tonedef said:


> Jung- but can you learn baseball then teach it? I know my character sucked then. My ex was a good father and husband. We had no passion though. We never made out (he thought tongue was icky), sex was almost nonexistent, we were like roommates that parented. I should have taken the high road and just left but I chose to cheat. My kids were happy and I took it away. My kids are okay with a two parent home. Going to dads is a vacation from my screaming 4 month old lol. But they seem happy here to. My ex comes over once a week to bring them dinner. My husband bonds with them plus they now have two younger siblings they adore. They are pretty content but I know theyd be happier with one household. But this is what they know, as said by another poster. And with me learning from all this- about boundaries, communication, ea's and how dangerous they are, I can speak to them from experience.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Wolf1974

vellocet said:


> Well it does help when the waywards participating own their choices and don't try to blame their BS.


I agree


Rarely i see Cheating spouses take full accountability for their actions and don't justify, blame shift, or make bull excuses they own their responsibility of the affair. Unfortunately that is not what typically happens here


----------



## MattMatt

Turin74 said:


> Tonedef,
> 
> One of your previous posts (the one when you talk about your ex getting mad about his friend asking you for pictures but doing actually nothing) explains this. With the standard disclaimer that this doesn't justifies cheating on understand you wanted out. I wish you'd find a better way out - guessing you'd be happier these days when your life looks to settle. Hope it won't come back to bite you one day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


From what Tonedef has written I think she now knows *exactly* what she did that was wrong (she's time for calm reflection and the like) and what she has learned she is applying to her second marriage.


----------



## Turin74

Yep, but looks like her ex didn't (learn). 
From an observer PoV: naturally it looks the most common reaction is to see WW crash, burn and crawling back (and BH refusing and happily riding with his new girl into the sunset in front of the fireplace on the beach). Yet, this story (tonedef's) feels positive? 



MattMatt said:


> From what Tonedef has written I think she now knows *exactly* what she did that was wrong (she's time for calm reflection and the like) and what she has learned she is applying to her second marriage.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## tonedef

Yes, I did tell him where I was going and who I was with. I did hurt him and wish I could take that back. Believe me, my affair didnt come without repercussions (the whole crashing and burning) my now husband had a bit of a temper towards me, was impatient around my kids (not mean just irritated) I was already feeling guilty for what I did and this just made it worse. My ex was and is a much better father. My 2nd marriage problems is what brought me here where I ended up reading posts here and I started doing some serious reflecting. Even though I feel like I learned something from it and he didn't, karma still got me from the pain of realizing my kids needed their father more than I needed romance. I didnt come crawling back though because first of all, I really cared for om, secondly, who am I to do that to my ex again? To essentially make him my back up plan. I couldnt just go back like nothing happendd. H and I are better though, but my ex deserves someone better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

tonedef said:


> Yes, I did tell him where I was going and who I was with. I did hurt him and wish I could take that back. Believe me, my affair didnt come without repercussions (the whole crashing and burning) my now husband had a bit of a temper towards me, was impatient around my kids (not mean just irritated) I was already feeling guilty for what I did and this just made it worse. My ex was and is a much better father. My 2nd marriage problems is what brought me here where I ended up reading posts here and I started doing some serious reflecting. Even though I feel like I learned something from it and he didn't, karma still got me from the pain of realizing my kids needed their father more than I needed romance. I didnt come crawling back though because first of all, I really cared for om, secondly, who am I to do that to my ex again? To essentially make him my back up plan. I couldnt just go back like nothing happendd. H and I are better though, but my ex deserves someone better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well it's good that you acknowledge it. It's even better that your ex seems to have forgiven the horrid way you treated him. I wouldn't have been that nice. If you were my wife your OM would have most likely done a couple nights in the hospital....

But if your ex doesn't man up, create some boundaries and stop with the passivity, he's only going to get skunked again by some gal who probably won't love him half as much as you did. I don't think you would like to see that. 

You probably have more influence than anyone over him to encourage him to help himself. I don't know how you would go about doing it, or even if it's your place to do so. It's a conundrum.


----------



## BjornFree

tonedef said:


> Yes, I did tell him where I was going and who I was with. I did hurt him and wish I could take that back. Believe me, my affair didnt come without repercussions (the whole crashing and burning) my now husband had a bit of a temper towards me, was impatient around my kids (not mean just irritated) I was already feeling guilty for what I did and this just made it worse. My ex was and is a much better father. My 2nd marriage problems is what brought me here where I ended up reading posts here and I started doing some serious reflecting. Even though I feel like I learned something from it and he didn't, karma still got me from the pain of realizing my kids needed their father more than I needed romance. I didnt come crawling back though because first of all, I really cared for om, secondly, who am I to do that to my ex again? To essentially make him my back up plan. I couldnt just go back like nothing happendd. H and I are better though, but my ex deserves someone better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You should post your story in its entirety. 

Also, your marriage to your OM is relatively young. Its when the sea gets rough that people chicken out and jump ship. 

No matter how you dress it up, cheating and betrayal are character flaws. If your OM was himself married at that time...you've got more problems on your hands than you're willing to acknowledge at this point. But that isn't to say that you'll not have a good marriage, just that you need to be doubly vary as how you started out your second(?) marriage usually ends up in divorce 95 % of the time not just because second marriages have a poor success rate but also due to your marrying your affair partner.


----------



## tonedef

He does need to man up and claim his territory so to speak, that aggressive ''she's mine'' attitude is a must. And of course coupled with proper boundaries. My ex is too nice, people who are too nice are just setting themselves up for hurt and being taken advantage of. I guess that could be a separate debate about alpha and beta and such.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanne

bandit.45 said:


> Well it's good that you acknowledge it. It's even better that your ex seems to have forgiven the horrid way you treated him. I wouldn't have been that nice. If you were my wife your OM would have most likely done a couple nights in the hospital....
> 
> But if your ex doesn't man up, create some boundaries and stop with the passivity, he's only going to get skunked again by some gal who probably won't love him half as much as you did. I don't think you would like to see that.
> 
> *You probably have more influence than anyone over him to encourage him to help himself. I don't know how you would go about doing it, or even if it's your place to do so. It's a conundrum.*


Well, probably she shouldn't be that person to tell him, boundaries and such....he is her ex after all.


----------



## Thundarr

There's a phrase that comes to mind 'don't throw out the baby with the bath water'. 

'bath water' is infidelity, weakness that causes it, and those destined to repeatedly cheat due to character flaws or stupidity. 
'baby' is those who have made mistakes and betrayed someone yet they are capable and willing to change and learn.


----------



## staystrong

lenzi said:


> Seems pretty clear from her post that she told him exactly what she was doing.


It's not clear at all what happened so maybe one day she will post her story.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Zanne said:


> It seems to me that all posters looking for relationship advice, regardless of circumstance, should be treated with the same amount of respect.
> 
> Some marriages are not destined for reconciliation.
> 
> If that's the case, the first marriage may have failed, but there are lessons to be learned and people here could be contributing to the success of future relationships and/or marriage.


In addition to that:

I believe in every person there is a lurking Wayward. In some of us it does not come out, happily. 
Forgiving is our task in life.

This in contrast with the TAM idea that there is good and bad, and it is clearly distinctable who is what.

The divorce rate among children from a broken relation is higher that others. While they should know better by experience.


----------



## Rookie4

bigtone128 said:


> Zanne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1) It IS a public website - so yes, when she posts her story it will be publicly scrutinized.
> 
> 2) It is not our purpose on here (at least mine) to just accept carte blanche what everyone says on here. My premise is that WSs have done a lot of hurt and pain and suffering to those they espouse to love the most - their spouses, families and children. and how they did this is by (at least in my ex WS's case) surrounding themselves by people who accepted their rationalizations, accepted their dishonesty, accepted their selfishness, etc. and did not confront them with the truth. And I believe if they are NOT confronted with the truth about how they did what they did, why they did what they did, the damaged they caused their spouses, families and children then no growth can come from it AND they will be susceptible to do it again. PERIOD! So if the come on here and expect a "oh that was too bad" and "oh you are right". I am not the person to give it to them. I feel an obligation to their current spouse and children to set them straight. If they cannot handle that - then well - it speaks volumes as to how sincere they are and perhaps that was the problem to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody that I know, made you the moral arbiter of what is or isn't the truth of a WS's story. Nor are you the authority on proper WS behavior. This is a prime example of the judgemental attack posts that drive WS posters away from TAM.
Click to expand...


----------



## Rookie4

bigtone128 said:


> Zanne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1) It IS a public website - so yes, when she posts her story it will be publicly scrutinized.
> 
> 2) It is not our purpose on here (at least mine) to just accept carte blanche what everyone says on here. My premise is that WSs have done a lot of hurt and pain and suffering to those they espouse to love the most - their spouses, families and children. and how they did this is by (at least in my ex WS's case) surrounding themselves by people who accepted their rationalizations, accepted their dishonesty, accepted their selfishness, etc. and did not confront them with the truth. And I believe if they are NOT confronted with the truth about how they did what they did, why they did what they did, the damaged they caused their spouses, families and children then no growth can come from it AND they will be susceptible to do it again. PERIOD! So if the come on here and expect a "oh that was too bad" and "oh you are right". I am not the person to give it to them. I feel an obligation to their current spouse and children to set them straight. If they cannot handle that - then well - it speaks volumes as to how sincere they are and perhaps that was the problem to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> If you cannot contribute to this thread, as it was intended to be, you should probably go elsewhere. More posts like this and they will be reported.
Click to expand...


----------



## staystrong

tonedef said:


> Yes, I did tell him where I was going and who I was with. I did hurt him and wish I could take that back. Believe me, my affair didnt come without repercussions (the whole crashing and burning) my now husband had a bit of a temper towards me, was impatient around my kids (not mean just irritated) I was already feeling guilty for what I did and this just made it worse. My ex was and is a much better father. My 2nd marriage problems is what brought me here where I ended up reading posts here and I started doing some serious reflecting. *Even though I feel like I learned something from it and he didn't, karma still got me from the pain of realizing my kids needed their father more than I needed romance*. I didnt come crawling back though because first of all, I really cared for om, secondly, who am I to do that to my ex again? To essentially make him my back up plan. I couldnt just go back like nothing happend. H and I are better though, but my ex deserves someone better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Not that you don't deserve romance, but it should be with the man you're with. But yes, your kids deserved their father more than you deserved romance. I thought that was the usual consensus about starting a family - some of your wants will be replaced by your kids' needs. I'm sensing you were very 'me, me, me' during this time. 

You were at an age when the children were very young and the most dependent on you both, my guess is that your marriage became immediately child-centered (normal), there were stresses, your husband became "softer" with child raising and he was already on the soft or nice side to begin with. 

Hopefully you will write your story because at this point it's not really clear what happened, how you tried to help your M or spice up your marriage. For example, when you say sex was 'nonexistent', for some people that word means once a week and others it means once a month.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> I agree
> 
> 
> Rarely i see Cheating spouses take full accountability for their actions and don't justify, blame shift, or make bull excuses they own their responsibility of the affair. Unfortunately that is not what typically happens here


I disagree with this most emphatically. Are the only WS's who are welcome here , the ones who have got their **** together, and say what everybody else wants to hear? If a wayward is unapologetic, is he/she to be cast into the outer darkness? Who needs help more, the WS who has already progressed, or the ones who still have issues?
This thread is an attempt to welcome ALL WS's, even those who do not conform to our preconceived ideas of proper post affair behavior.


----------



## staystrong

Turin74 said:


> Tonedef,
> 
> *One of your previous posts (the one when you talk about your ex getting mad about his friend asking you for pictures but doing actually nothing) explains this.* With the standard disclaimer that this doesn't justifies cheating on understand you wanted out. I wish you'd find a better way out - guessing you'd be happier these days when your life looks to settle. Hope it won't come back to bite you one day. _Posted via *Topify* on Android_



Maybe. Maybe not. Her XH is not here and we only have her word to go on. She's painting him as a total wimp and he's not here to defend himself. 

We are talking about a former wayward here, and we know how they rewrite history, sometimes inadvertently even. I have my doubts about some of her claims.


----------



## GusPolinski

Honestly I'd like to see tonedef open up her own thread.

And speaking of that, Rookie, how are things going w/ your ex?


----------



## Rookie4

staystrong said:


> Maybe. Maybe not. Her XH is not here and we only have her word to go on. She's painting him as a total wimp and he's not here to defend himself.
> 
> We are talking about a former wayward here, and we know how they rewrite history, sometimes inadvertently even. I have my doubts about some of her claims.


All former waywards are liars, are they? Do you or have you ever lied? Does that mean that strangers can question your honesty without knowing you? This type of judgmental post has no place on this thread.


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> Honestly I'd like to see tonedef open up her own thread.
> 
> And speaking of that, Rookie, how are things going w/ your ex?


She is recovering from an auto accident, and ironically, has been living with my GF and I. But she is much better now .


----------



## italianjob

Rookie4 said:


> I disagree with this most emphatically. Are the only WS's who are welcome here , the ones who have got their **** together, and say what everybody else wants to hear? If a wayward is unapologetic, is he/she to be cast into the outer darkness? Who needs help more, the WS who has already progressed, or the ones who still have issues?
> This thread is an attempt to welcome ALL WS's, even those who do not conform to our preconceived ideas of proper post affair behavior.


As you have pointed out to another poster before, no one here is an authority on how waywards (like myself, or even BSs for that matter) should be "welcomed" by the community, and I think that includes YOU.

Your self righteous attitude and continuous hitting on people who don't share your view is starting to get annoying...


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> She is recovering from an auto accident, and ironically, has been living with my GF and I. But she is much better now.


Wow. Nothing too _terribly_ serious, I hope.


----------



## Rookie4

italianjob said:


> As you have pointed out to another poster before, no one here is an authority on how waywards (like myself, or even BSs for that matter) should be "welcomed" by the community, and I think that includes YOU.
> 
> Your self righteous attitude and continuous hitting on people who don't share your view is starting to get annoying...


Then , by all means , use the ignore feature, or simply go elsewhere. Is the only reason you posted, to be offensive? Do you have anything positive to contribute, or do you just want to get your dig in?


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> Wow. Nothing too _terribly_ serious, I hope.


Not now, she will be fine in a couple more months.


----------



## italianjob

Rookie4 said:


> Then , by all means , use the ignore feature, or simply go elsewhere. Is the only reason you posted, to be offensive? Do you have anything positive to contribute, or do you just want to get your dig in?


So is it offensive not to agree with you and speaking one's mind about it?
I think you made your point ...


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Ah, yes, the ignore feature!

That means I can clean a thread from cluttering sub threads?!


----------



## Turin74

Of course. Some of the other bits and pieces of information do match though, but sure only THEY know. At the same time this thread is aimed at getting WS' point of view, so some doubt is inherent. And IMHO the input is valuable anyway. 




staystrong said:


> Turin74 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tonedef,
> 
> *One of your previous posts (the one when you talk about your ex getting mad about his friend asking you for pictures but doing actually nothing) explains this.* With the standard disclaimer that this doesn't justifies cheating on understand you wanted out. I wish you'd find a better way out - guessing you'd be happier these days when your life looks to settle. Hope it won't come back to bite you one day. _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe. Maybe not. Her XH is not here and we only have her word to go on. She's painting him as a total wimp and he's not here to defend himself.
> 
> We are talking about a former wayward here, and we know how they rewrite history, sometimes inadvertently even. I have my doubts about some of her claims.
Click to expand...

 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Rookie4

italianjob said:


> So is it offensive not to agree with you and speaking one's mind about it?
> I think you made your point ...


The purpose that I started this thread was to welcome WS to TAM. At no point did I ever say that I was the "welcome wagon" and have only asked that posters be civil and helpful. You are perfectly free to agree or disagree with me about anything, but you should stay on topic when you do so. You have said nothing about Welcoming WS's. all you have done is b*tch about me. Don't like me? Go elsewhere or I will ask that you not post here. This thread is about welcoming waywards, do you have anything to say about the subject?


----------



## staystrong

Rookie4 said:


> All former waywards are liars, are they? Do you or have you ever lied? Does that mean that strangers can question your honesty without knowing you? This type of judgmental post has no place on this thread.


An affair by its very nature involves deception. There were lies prior to D-day, lies of omission at the very least.


----------



## italianjob

Rookie4 said:


> The purpose that I started this thread was to welcome WS to TAM. At no point did I ever say that I was the "welcome wagon" and have only asked that posters be civil and helpful. You are perfectly free to agree or disagree with me about anything, but you should stay on topic when you do so. You have said nothing about Welcoming WS's. all you have done is b*tch about me. Don't like me? Go elsewhere or I will ask that you not post here. This thread is about welcoming waywards, do you have anything to say about the subject?


I had actually already partecipated in the discussion, thanks.

I just wanted to express my disconfort at the attitude you were showing to some of the posters who hadn't been offensive, IMO, and just didn't post the way you would have liked them to do. I felt it sounded patronizing and self righteous, and just wanted to let you know. Is this still within my rights?


----------



## Rookie4

staystrong said:


> An affair by its very nature involves deception. There were lies prior to D-day, lies of omission at the very least.


Please read my post. I said FORMER waywards, didn't I? I think we can agree that DURING an affair there is deception.


----------



## Rookie4

italianjob said:


> I had actually already partecipated in the discussion, thanks.
> 
> I just wanted to express my disconfort at the attitude you were showing to some of the posters who hadn't been offensive, IMO, and just didn't post the way you would have liked them to do. I felt it sounded patronizing and self righteous, and just wanted to let you know. Is this still within my rights?


 Thank you for letting me know that you don't like my posts.


----------



## staystrong

tonedef said:


> He does need to man up and claim his territory so to speak, that aggressive ''she's mine'' attitude is a must. And of course coupled with proper boundaries. My ex is too nice, people who are too nice are just setting themselves up for hurt and being taken advantage of. I guess that could be a separate debate about alpha and beta and such.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm just really skeptical of all of this. I'm more inclined to believe that you fooled your H with a "we're just friends/colleagues" routine, and perhaps downplayed any interest you had in him. My X initially described her AP (a teacher) as "annoying, dumb way of talking, might change to someone else" and rarely talked about him. She did say he was attracted to her but she is attractive so I was used to men being attracted to her. But based on her prior description and the way she said it, I figured she put him in her place. Now, was I being naive by not asking if she was attracted to him? As a WS, she probably would have outright lied or downplayed it. But maybe if I'd asked, and caught her in a blush, my life would be completely different right now. She at point of her A asked me, "Why aren't you more jealous?" and I responded "I didn't think I had anything to be jealous about." I had no idea what she was talking about. Thought it was just she was on her period and sensitive. Had I asked, "Jealous of who?" Do you think she would have told me? Of course not. 

I guess what I'm getting at here is it's mindblowing. A cheater is thinking like a cheater, and the loyal (chomped) spouse might be clueless but would actually normally be very jealous or mate-guarding if the threat was in their presence. At least your husband got very mad about the BF's request for "pictures". Had he had no reaction, I'd call that passive. You still haven't expressed the context so it's hard to get a sense of anything. I hope you start your own thread because this is very interesting for some of us.


----------



## staystrong

Rookie4 said:


> Thank you for letting me know that you don't like my posts.


Can you guys take it to PM? You're going to kill a very good thread which you yourself started.


----------



## walkingdead

Im a bit late to the party, but had to login and add my two cents... To the posters who don't believe their affair hurt the kids...

My wh's affair killed the wife and mother I should have been. I was devastated. My oldest was 7 and youngest only 3. They have no idea thay this shell of a human used to sing around the house, play board games til bed time, laugh and play and always saw the bright side of life. I used to be fun and happy. My deepest depression lasted four out of last 8 yrs and I am no longer the mom I was. This affected my kids. He murdered the mom they rightfully had. One day, when trying to be her again, I tried singing a lullaby. My baby (now 11) didnt know the song or that I used to sing all of them to sleep every night. I am a shell of my former self just going thru the motions day by day. I pray to die every night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

walkingdead said:


> Im a bit late to the party, but had to login and add my two cents... To the posters who don't believe their affair hurt the kids...
> 
> My wh's affair killed the wife and mother I should have been. I was devastated. My oldest was 7 and youngest only 3. They have no idea thay this shell of a human used to sing around the house, play board games til bed time, laugh and play and always saw the bright side of life. I used to be fun and happy. My deepest depression lasted four out of last 8 yrs and I am no longer the mom I was. This affected my kids. He murdered the mom they rightfully had. One day, when trying to be her again, I tried singing a lullaby. My baby (now 11) didnt know the song or that I used to sing all of them to sleep every night. I am a shell of my former self just going thru the motions day by day. I pray to die every night.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please try to be strong enough to get treatment for your obvious pain. The recovery from infidelity is difficult, but you can come out the other side a stronger and more content person. Please try, for you and your kids.


----------



## Zanne

walkingdead said:


> Im a bit late to the party, but had to login and add my two cents... To the posters who don't believe their affair hurt the kids...
> 
> My wh's affair killed the wife and mother I should have been. I was devastated. My oldest was 7 and youngest only 3. They have no idea thay this shell of a human used to sing around the house, play board games til bed time, laugh and play and always saw the bright side of life. I used to be fun and happy. My deepest depression lasted four out of last 8 yrs and I am no longer the mom I was. This affected my kids. He murdered the mom they rightfully had. One day, when trying to be her again, I tried singing a lullaby. My baby (now 11) didnt know the song or that I used to sing all of them to sleep every night. I am a shell of my former self just going thru the motions day by day. I pray to die every night.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry for what you went through with your husband's betrayal, but YOU have the ability to be content with life. You're giving him way too much credit (power). Quite frankly, you chose to stop singing to your kids. I hope you are in a healthier place now, for their sake.


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## tonedef

Staystrong- I didnt think I was painting my ex as a wimp. He was a super nice guy though. You see, I had a lot of male friends from high school and from when I was in the air force. I should have dropped them when I got married. I also didnt realize how harmful text flirting and befriending friends of the opposite sex could be and how quickly it can turn into ea. One time a male friend called and my ex answered it and handed it to me. My ex did not get mad bc another man called me but bc he didnt wanna convo my ex before asking for me. The om was not a colleague, when I befriended him, I told my ex about him bc I never became friends with guys with ill intentions. If I can word this well enough- my ex seemingly never had a problem with my male friends and I had poor boundaries.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> I disagree with this most emphatically. Are the only WS's who are welcome here , the ones who have got their **** together, and say what everybody else wants to hear? If a wayward is unapologetic, is he/she to be cast into the outer darkness? Who needs help more, the WS who has already progressed, or the ones who still have issues?
> This thread is an attempt to welcome ALL WS's, even those who do not conform to our preconceived ideas of proper post affair behavior.


Feel free to disagree however you want. I was make a generalized statement about my experience in dealing with *most* cheaters and how they blame shift and justify their behavior and choices. 

Do I think you can help them? Only the ones who own their mistake. Their is a place for people who made mistakes and want to make a mends...but part of making a mistake and making a mends is OWNING it not blame shifting and justifying which is all to common here,

Cheating is not a gender issue, situation issue, circumstance issue. It is a low character issue. And sometimes that can be recovered but it's rare. So for my own part i don't think they should be "cast into the darkness" lol but when they come on public forums and blame shift and justify I'm going to call them on it. It's funny because if you think they are so capable of change then they seeing what cheating does to other people should be the catalyst for that change.

When people are logging in and saying that affairs that cause divorce don't hurt kids I'm more Than allowed to disagree with that


----------



## tonedef

About my marriage- like I said he was an awesome guy, funny, good father. I never wrote him off as a bad guy to om. I tried renewing the marriage mentally by trying to remember why I fell for him but I had too many distractions. The befriending of om quickly became an ea. Not me badmouthing my ex, but we really did fall for each other. This was not my exs fault. And to be honest, when I told my ex I was falling for om, I was actually surprised he was hurt because he allowed me to do so much and I kept pushing the boundary that I got to a point where I just didnt think he cared. I probably really should post the whole story but i'm thinking some may cast doubt on my claims- like staystrong said. I have no reason to lie. I jumped in the lions den with full intentions to go to the proverbial balls to the wall.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Rookie4 said:


> I disagree with this most emphatically. Are the only WS's who are welcome here , the ones who have got their **** together, and say what everybody else wants to hear? If a wayward is unapologetic, is he/she to be cast into the outer darkness? Who needs help more, the WS who has already progressed, or the ones who still have issues?
> This thread is an attempt to welcome ALL WS's, even those who do not conform to our preconceived ideas of proper post affair behavior.


While I agree that the unapologetic WS is the person who needs the most help....You're dictating the process to help them.

Sometimes they need a "hug", sometimes they need a "2x4". Just like it's not up to others to dictate what help should be given, it's also not up to you to dictate it either.

The benefit of a PUBLIC website like this is you get ALL perspectives.


----------



## tryingpatience

tonedef said:


> About my marriage- like I said he was an awesome guy, funny, good father. I never wrote him off as a bad guy to om. I tried renewing the marriage mentally by trying to remember why I fell for him but I had too many distractions. The befriending of om quickly became an ea. Not me badmouthing my ex, but we really did fall for each other. This was not my exs fault. And to be honest, when I told my ex I was falling for om, I was actually surprised he was hurt because he allowed me to do so much and I kept pushing the boundary that I got to a point where I just didnt think he cared. I probably really should post the whole story but i'm thinking some may cast doubt on my claims- like staystrong said. I have no reason to lie. I jumped in the lions den with full intentions to go to the proverbial balls to the wall.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When you attempted to renew the marriage mentally had the affair already started? And when you told your ex you were falling for the OM did you tell him everything? Were you already sleeping with the OM? I apologize if you already went over this part of your story.


----------



## tonedef

I know it is common for a ws to blameshift but I never did. I just slowly detached, not because of the distractions but because neither of us tried really hard to get back on track. The distractions didnt really help me get back on track. Also I see people say ''I trust my spouse 100 percent''- i'm sorry but that is dumb lol maybe bc I see how quickly things can unfold but one should never just blindly trust. I do trust my own husband but I know he is human. Walkingdead- so sorry, but 8 years? You let another human take 8 yrs of your life away? That is almost as bad as the infidelity itself. Quit letting him do that to you. You're better than that. Again im sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> I disagree with this most emphatically. Are the only WS's who are welcome here , the ones who have got their **** together, and say what everybody else wants to hear? If a wayward is unapologetic, is he/she to be cast into the outer darkness?


Not at all. But they shouldn't expect pleasantries.

You talk a lot about WS being treated badly. But if an unapologetic finger pointer comes here, that is basically treating the BS here badly. No, its not their WS, but when justifications are made, they are slapping BSs in the face and its an insult. You don't say a word about that.




> This thread is an attempt to welcome ALL WS's, even those who do not conform to our preconceived ideas of proper post affair behavior.


No, its not. The following says all about what this thread is really about.



> Of course , there are also those who will attempt to berate and abuse you, but I feel that there are enough compassionate posters to , in part, shield you from the haters and abusers


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> Then , by all means , use the ignore feature, or simply go elsewhere. Is the only reason you posted, to be offensive? Do you have anything positive to contribute, or do you just want to get your dig in?


Good advice for yourself the next time you don't like what a BS is saying.


----------



## vellocet

tonedef said:


> I know it is common for a ws to blameshift but I never did.


You are added to the list, although small, of WSs for which I have respect. You, along with the likes of MJA, are much different than most of the WS here. I sincerely hope things work out for you for the future.


----------



## Mr. Dee

My fOW, a single mom, did not hide from her kids (2yrs-8yrs) the fact that mommy's "boyfriend" had a wife. When she went crazy after dday, she even used the kids to help her stalk me and my wife. 

Surely anyone can see that this crazy beech is a horrible parent. But she can't, she always goes loudly right into her insistence that she's raising perfect children. Even when I was still a cheater I could see, and I told her, that her kids are going to be so messed up when they're older.

Show kids that it's great and wonderful for a married person to "date" someone else? Even without the other crap, that's bad parenting. Simple.


----------



## tonedef

Tryingpatience- I kinda just gave up on the marriage long before. It just became a comfortable routine I guess. There was nothing to tell my ex when I met my now husband, cause we hadnt physically met yet but I wanted to so no, was not sleeping with him yet either. When we did meet we did fall hard but took things really slow. By then my ex and I were separated and We slept together a month before the divorce was final. I know none of this makes me better than your typical ws, but if it means anything, I tried doing things delicately to not only lessen the blow bc my ex is a good guy, but I have no need or want to be deceitful. I'm sure I still was in some ways. But om and I are still married so at least it wasnt all for nothing. Geez I know that last statement sounds so bad but I need more coffee before i try to make any sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## staystrong

tonedef said:


> About my marriage- like I said he was an awesome guy, funny, good father. I never wrote him off as a bad guy to om. I tried renewing the marriage mentally by trying to remember why I fell for him but I had too many distractions. The befriending of om quickly became an ea. Not me badmouthing my ex, but we really did fall for each other. This was not my exs fault. And to be honest, when I told my ex I was falling for om, I was actually surprised he was hurt because he allowed me to do so much and I kept pushing the boundary that I got to a point where I just didnt think he cared. I probably really should post the whole story but i'm thinking some may cast doubt on my claims- like staystrong said. I have no reason to lie. I jumped in the lions den with full intentions to go to the proverbial balls to the wall.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's not that I think you'd be lying now as much that you had lied in the past and may not remember the ways in which you did. Many fogged out former WS's do not remember the details of what they said to their BS. The lies became automatic. 

I hope you post your story. It's hard to say what your husband thought or felt prior to that revelation. Had he met the OM yet? How had you described the OM? What was the nature/reason for meeting OM? Etc. It's quite possible that since you had imported a cadre of male friends, he was under the assumption that _you_ already knew how to draw the line yourself. I mean, let's face it.. you were his wife and the mother of his two children. His confidante, lover, life partner and so on. There's a certain baseline of trust there. 

Perhaps your ex-H did not 'mate guard' well enough, so yes it's about a lack of boundaries. His and yours, but ultimately yours. I think with regards to the phone call from a male friend, maybe he saw the guy as "your friend" who had already been vetted, and might ask you "what was that about?" after the call. I don't think it's so unusual that a woman might have an old male friend who perhaps the H had marginal interest in. I mean, it was just a phone call which occurred on one normal day like any other. He probably judged you by your reaction to the call, but didn't say anything. Perhaps he isn't as dumb as you think, he just wasn't on cheater alert.


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## tonedef

Thank you vellocet, I hope I didnt ruin it with my last post lol but really. This forum rocks and I swear it has matured my thought process ten fold.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doubletrouble

Zanne said:


> I'm sorry for what you went through with your husband's betrayal, but YOU have the ability to be content with life. You're giving him way too much credit (power). *Quite frankly, you chose to stop singing to your kids*. I hope you are in a healthier place now, for their sake.


I have to diagree with this based on my life experience. 

I used to sing and play music, write music, record it and play in a band, all kinds of musical enjoyment. 

Post DDay, the first was Dec 2011, the second and worse one was Feb 2013, I haven't played music at ALL for nearly three years. I gave away my sax, my 7 guitars are all gethering dust, and my amps haven't been heated up for three years. 

Why? Is it a choice? No, it's because I don't feel it. Something inside has been turned off. It might come back on again, I want it to, but it's been three years of struggling to find that fun, creative side of myself again, after having my heart shredded.


----------



## vellocet

tonedef said:


> Thank you vellocet, I hope I didnt ruin it with my last post lol but really. This forum rocks and I swear it has matured my thought process ten fold.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well yes, the last post did take it down a notch, but not completely. You seem like you are in a continuous state of improvement.

But I have to ask, does your OM, now husband, know you are here posting about treating your X badly?


----------



## staystrong

As a reference to how you describe your H..

In my case, I knew men were attracted to my ex-wife and I sometimes quizzed her at times about men, and even intercepted a possible crush once by asking her to invite that person over to meet and check him out. Because she had told me something which described him in a positive light. Who knows, that could have spun up into a real affair. She also worked as a masseuse, and I pushed her to draw the line at no male clients except for referrals. I thought that was a reasonable request to establish her safety (we'd had some guys with other intentions), and I'm sure during her A she thought of that as "controlling". But she slipped me a sleeping pill when she described her new teacher as "annoying" etc. and did not talk about him at all. You see, I trusted her to tell me how she really felt, and I had not known her to lie yet. Later she revealed he might be attracted to her but I had passed it off as the annoying piano teacher who had a crush on my hot wife. I can't ****block every single man who thought my wife was hot, so I relied on her to do it also. I was totally hoodwinked in this instance. So just wondering if a similar thing occurred with your H. 

My wife also describes me as smart, funny, charming, a great father, a big-hearted person, etc. The great beta traits. But I also used to be her *man* in the alpha sense and her handsome lover, until she started spending time alone with another man. So just from my POV, I sense rewriting on your part based on my story and other stories. She was having better sex with her AP, obviously, something that tortured my soul for months on end. 

As the saying goes, if she'd put a fraction of the energy that she put into her affair over into her marriage, we'd been having our own little affair. She also spent some time trying to rekindle why she thought she'd fallen in love with me, but it was by her own measure, her own plan. And she was disappointed that the flame wasn't rising again. And she was being pulled into something shiny and new and much more exciting. No husband can compete with that. That's the important thing to understand. Even if the H had discovered you at EA stage II or whatever, he'd have a real hard time pulling you out of the fog. Similarly, your current H would not be able to compete with a new guy on the scene who captured your attention. Because for it to have gotten to that stage, you've already been injected with "love feelings" and made reasons in your head to see this person again. You may have just accepted that this is who you are and this is how life is. I suppose that's how someone becomes a serial cheater (not of the malicious kind). Do you see the point? It's probably not the case that your new H is really any better or more magical than your first H, it's just that you bonded through an illicit affair and probably cocooned yourselves during the fallout. I think you have the added the realistic but fragile nature of relationships, which makes you more vigilant. Maybe your husband has not learned much from this, or maybe he thinks it's just not what "good people" do and he thinks he'll find a good person like himself. Dunno.


----------



## staystrong

doubletrouble said:


> I have to diagree with this based on my life experience.
> 
> I used to sing and play music, write music, record it and play in a band, all kinds of musical enjoyment.
> 
> Post DDay, the first was Dec 2011, the second and worse one was Feb 2013, I haven't played music at ALL for nearly three years. I gave away my sax, my 7 guitars are all gethering dust, and my amps haven't been heated up for three years.
> 
> Why? Is it a choice? No, it's because I don't feel it. Something inside has been turned off. It might come back on again, I want it to, but it's been three years of struggling to find that fun, creative side of myself again, after having my heart shredded.



Same thing happened to me. Music as a creative outlet ended. I tried to do something with it, even write sad songs, but it just wasn't there. I was in a very severe depression (chronic PTSD, no joke), so really nothing was possible then. 

I hope it comes back to you. Your joy should not be thoroughly killed.


----------



## BetrayedDad

tonedef said:


> And to be honest, when I told my ex I was falling for om, I was actually surprised he was hurt because he allowed me to do so much and I kept pushing the boundary that I got to a point where I just didnt think he cared.


I appreciate you coming on here. I respect you for that.

You write like you were powerless to stop any of this. You admit you have no boundries but where is your will power? Can you not think for yourself? How HARD is it to say no? Are you really this submissive of a person? Some guy showers you with a little attention and the panties just fall to the floor? I know alot of people like you and I just don't get how mentally weak some people can be.

Let's recap. So he "allowed" you to do this? Is he your dad too? So much for equal partnerships. Obviously, he trusted you. How can you the take the trust an individual gives you and perceive that as "I didn't think he cared" because HE didn't stop ME from acting badly. Essentially, you're saying you cheated because he treated you like an adult and trusted you (ie wouldn't act like the vagina police for your lack of self control over the organ between your legs) and therefore you pushed boundries because you have/had the maturity of a selfish teenager on an ego trip.

I'm glad you accept that the cheating was all your fault and that you've learned from your mistakes (hopefully). What just amazes me is simply how weak minded you acted during all this. That in your mind, it was his fault he didn't monitor you better rather then you having a little self control.

Good Luck with your OM. You fell in love with a creep who sleeps with other men's wives. Can't be all that surprised you're having marital issues with him now that the fog's lifted can you?


----------



## doubletrouble

staystrong said:


> Same thing happened to me. Music as a creative outlet ended. I tried to do something with it, even write sad songs, but it just wasn't there. I was in a very severe depression (chronic PTSD, no joke), so really nothing was possible then.
> 
> I hope it comes back to you. Your joy should not be thoroughly killed.


I'm trying, brother. I want to. 

Infidelity has some really far-reaching side effects.


----------



## bandit.45

Rookie4 said:


> Please read my post. I said FORMER waywards, didn't I? I think we can agree that DURING an affair there is deception.


Waywards are gamblers really. In order to get their "fix" they are willing to lie, to put aside their morals, put aside their honesty, put their family on the chopping block and engage in personal behavior that those who know them find shocking... All in the hope that this hot, passionate, naughty affair will fill in the emptiness they are feeling. At the time they are engaging in it it means more than life to them. 

Never underestimate the power of the perceived need for self preservation.


----------



## doubletrouble

Rookie, thanks for this thread. Keep on it. And although keeping TAM threads in focus can be like herding cats, I think the health of TAM has been really screwed over by some incredibly harsh, self-serving posters who have little to no tolerance for anything but their own POV. 

It's a public forum, as someone pointed out. But how do we act in public, as mature adults? Do we throw coffee in each others' faces, or do we try to be civil? The anonymity of the internet gives people a boldness they can't back up in real life. Nobody can throw me up against the wall IRL if I type something bloody nasty on the screen. As the inheritors of the world, we could all take a lesson and loosen up a little. Not to say give up our own values, but understand ours isn't the only valid POV out there. But to be civil while presenting it.

Otherwise TAM will start looking a lot like Congress and be worthless to everyone.


----------



## staystrong

BetrayedDad said:


> I appreciate you coming on here.
> 
> You write like you were powerless to stop any of this. You admit you have no boundries but where is you're will power. How HARD is it to say no, really? I know alot of people like you and I just don't get how mentally weak some people can be.
> 
> So he "allowed" you to do this? Is he your dad too? So much for equal partnerships. Obviously, he trusted you. How can you the take the trust an individual gives you and perceive that as "I didn't think her cared" because HE didn't stop ME from acting badly. Essentially, you're saying you cheated because he treated you like an adult and trusted you (ie wouldn't act like the vagina police for your lack of self control over the organ between your legs) and therefore you pushed boundries because you have/had the maturity of a selfish teenager on an ego trip.
> 
> I'm glad you accept that the cheating was all your fault and that you've learned from your mistakes (hopefully). What just amazes me is simply how weak minded you acted during all this. That in your mind, it was his fault he didn't monitor you better rather then you controlling yourself.


In her defense.. in the 'defense' of all cheaters.. she wasn't expecting these feelings. They surged into her, she felt alive again. It's overwhelming. You should consider that it didn't make sense to her either. It was uninvited, and she slipped into it because she probably though she could manage a 'friendship' with someone she also felt attracted to. Most people who cheat aren't bad people, it's just the nature of human beings to be attracted to each other. It's probably the case that her OM isn't a scoundrel, he also felt compelled to see this woman again. After the first kiss, she may have even felt "I can't do this" along with "That felt sooo good". Most people are not good at cutting themself off from pleasure, even if it is guilty pleasure.


----------



## Pluto2

staystrong said:


> In her defense.. in the 'defense' of all cheaters.. she wasn't expecting these feelings. They surged into her, she felt alive again. It's overwhelming. You should consider that it didn't make sense to her either. It was uninvited, and she slipped into it because she probably though she could manage a 'friendship' with someone she also felt attracted to. Most people who cheat aren't bad people, it's just the nature of human beings to be attracted to each other. It's probably the case that her OM isn't a scoundrel, he also felt compelled to see this woman again. After the first kiss, she may have even felt "I can't do this" along with "That felt sooo good". Most people are not good at cutting themself off from pleasure, even if it is guilty pleasure.


So, cheaters are addicts with no self control.
I do not accept that premise.


----------



## Wolf1974

vellocet said:


> Not at all. But they shouldn't expect pleasantries.
> 
> *You talk a lot about WS being treated badly. But if an unapologetic finger pointer comes here, that is basically treating the BS here badly. No, its not their WS, but when justifications are made, they are slapping BSs in the face and its an insult. You don't say a word about that.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, its not. The following says all about what this thread is really about.


:iagree: exactly

To the very few who have cheated and owned all their stuff...and I do mean the very few I will say the following. 

I wouldn't want you to marry my son or daughter.
I would not accept you as a friend. 
I would certainly never date you at all and would actually advise anyone caution in getting involved romantically with you.

However I know one of the absolute hardest things to do in life is to stand before someone you have wronged and say I did this and I was wrong. You didn't deserve this AND I have *NO* excuse. Anyone who can do that has my respect and I believe can turn things around for themselves.


----------



## staystrong

tonedef said:


> Tryingpatience- I kinda just gave up on the marriage long before. It just became a comfortable routine I guess. There was nothing to tell my ex when I met my now husband, cause we hadnt physically met yet but I wanted to so no, was not sleeping with him yet either. When we did meet we did fall hard but took things really slow. By then my ex and I were separated and We slept together a month before the divorce was final. I know none of this makes me better than your typical ws, but if it means anything, I tried doing things delicately to not only lessen the blow bc my ex is a good guy, but I have no need or want to be deceitful. I'm sure I still was in some ways. But om and I are still married so at least it wasnt all for nothing. Geez I know that last statement sounds so bad but I need more coffee before i try to make any sense.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



What, you met online? Did he live in another city or state?

What about flirting and virtual sex? 

Was it an online affair which would have gone physical had you'd been closer to one another?

I'm not seeing anything that's different.. just from a BS's point of view you could easily be rewriting the "comfortable routine" "roommates" "brother and sister feeling".


----------



## staystrong

Pluto2 said:


> So, cheaters are addicts with no self control.
> I do not accept that premise.


No, I'm not saying that though the model could fit. But don't try telling a cheater they are an addict. THEY ARE IN LOVE, my friend. As far as they are concerned, they are in love. Consider them indistinguishable, and if you want to save a marriage, don't plead, reason, cry. etc. Use the tools at your disposal to shock them out of that love stage. Because one thing the BS has at their disposal is mature love and the precedent of romantic love. Along with shame, guilt, morality, stability, and family ties.


----------



## Zanne

bandit.45 said:


> Waywards are gamblers really. In order to get their "fix" they are willing to lie, to put aside their morals, put aside their honesty, put their family on the chopping block and engage in personal behavior that those who know them find shocking... All in the hope that this hot, passionate, naughty affair will fill in the emptiness they are feeling. At the time they are engaging in it it means more than life to them.
> 
> Never underestimate the power of the perceived need for self preservation.


You nailed it.


----------



## Zanne

doubletrouble said:


> I have to diagree with this based on my life experience.
> 
> I used to sing and play music, write music, record it and play in a band, all kinds of musical enjoyment.
> 
> Post DDay, the first was Dec 2011, the second and worse one was Feb 2013, I haven't played music at ALL for nearly three years. I gave away my sax, my 7 guitars are all gethering dust, and my amps haven't been heated up for three years.
> 
> Why? Is it a choice? No, it's because I don't feel it. Something inside has been turned off. It might come back on again, I want it to, but it's been three years of struggling to find that fun, creative side of myself again, after having my heart shredded.


I can totally understand going through a life experience that is so bad it shakes your foundation and you are the not the same person. Bad things happen to good people, right?

Sometimes what I see here is too much focus is on the one who betrayed you. Of course, I can't tell any one person how or how long they should grieve their dead relationship. But if you truly believe - and you are telling yourself every day - that this one person is responsible for taking your music away from you, I don't know...it feels like you are giving them that power.

By no means am I saying, "Just get over it!"

I believe there is a time for grieving and a time for healing.


----------



## Zanne

staystrong said:


> In her defense.. in the 'defense' of all cheaters.. she wasn't expecting these feelings. They surged into her, she felt alive again. It's overwhelming. You should consider that it didn't make sense to her either. It was uninvited, and she slipped into it because she probably though she could manage a 'friendship' with someone she also felt attracted to. Most people who cheat aren't bad people, it's just the nature of human beings to be attracted to each other. It's probably the case that her OM isn't a scoundrel, he also felt compelled to see this woman again. After the first kiss, she may have even felt "I can't do this" along with "That felt sooo good". Most people are not good at cutting themself off from pleasure, even if it is guilty pleasure.


I'm not so convinced that tonedef wasn't expecting the feelings. It sounds like she was young when first married. She dated and married for about the same amount of time where she is at now with OM. And interestingly, she is experiencing issues in that relationship now.

The difference is, she is more mature now. Her past experiences have changed her and she has the mindset of "doing better." Many people choose not to grow as an individual, for whatever reasons (childhood issues, personality traits, etc.).

This is a great case for saying a bunch of strangers on a marriage forum can make a difference in someone's life. Tonedef came here looking for advice for her current marriage, she read other stories here, she learned, and she is applying it to her life.


----------



## doubletrouble

Zanne said:


> I can totally understand going through a life experience that is so bad it shakes your foundation and you are the not the same person. Bad things happen to good people, right?
> 
> Sometimes what I see here is too much focus is on the one who betrayed you. Of course, I can't tell any one person how or how long they should grieve their dead relationship. But if you truly believe - and you are telling yourself every day - that this one person is responsible for taking your music away from you, I don't know...it feels like you are giving them that power.
> 
> By no means am I saying, "Just get over it!"
> 
> I believe there is a time for grieving and a time for healing.


I understand that, and agree. It surprises me, because some of my best music was written when depressed. *shrug*

But this is different. I think because it shook me to the core. My core is solid, but it sure got challenged. And we need enough time to heal, whatever that timeline is.


----------



## tonedef

Betrayed dad- I feel ya. But this is what some are not getting- the texting male friends was genuimely harmless. I am not saying any of it was my ex fault. I should have had better self control and boundaries. But back to what i was saying. The male friends were harmless for the most part. Yes i could have used that time in my ex but i didnt. I met om online and fell for each other. In my mind I was so detached from my then h, it was mentally equivalent to moving on and going on a date like a single person normally would. But I wasnt single. Yes I take full blame for everything. I was not powerless. I fell in love with just one guy, was honest about it, and he and I have been together and married ever sense. But my lack of boundaries allowed it to happen. I do not regret meeting him, just the means in which I did bc it involved hurting my ex and breaking up my kids family. I would feel better saying we divorced and I met my now husband down the road. Instead of continuing my path of destruction
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## staystrong

doubletrouble said:


> I understand that, and agree. It surprises me, because some of my best music was written when depressed. *shrug*
> 
> But this is different. I think because it shook me to the core. My core is solid, but it sure got challenged. And we need enough time to heal, whatever that timeline is.


I agree - it goes to the core. 

Yes, it's about losing that special person in your life. But as we know, it's also the fact that your past, present and future have all changed. Often, your conception of the world has changed. If you have kids, your perception of parenting and family have changed. Maybe you were never an angry or depressed person, and now you've experienced depths of those two which you didn't feel possible. If you're a sensitive type (musician/artist), this can shut down the muse. 

You'll heal. Maybe you'll find a different voice through it.


----------



## staystrong

tonedef said:


> Betrayed dad- I feel ya. But this is what some are not getting- the texting male friends was genuimely harmless. I am not saying any of it was my ex fault. I should have had better self control and boundaries. But back to what i was saying. The male friends were harmless for the most part. Yes i could have used that time in my ex but i didnt. I met om online and fell for each other. In my mind I was so detached from my then h, it was mentally equivalent to moving on and going on a date like a single person normally would. But I wasnt single. Yes I take full blame for everything. I was not powerless. I fell in love with just one guy, was honest about it, and he and I have been together and married ever sense. But my lack of boundaries allowed it to happen. I do not regret meeting him, just the means in which I did bc it involved hurting my ex and breaking up my kids family. I would feel better saying we divorced and I met my now husband down the road. Instead of continuing my path of destruction
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You were mentally detached before you met OM online?

Did you talk to anyone about it - girlfriends, therapist, family, husband?


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## tonedef

I learned a very hard lessen and have way better boundaries, have no male friends, and my H and I try together to keep the passion alive. Also for me, the fog did not make me this dumb lovestruck douchtard. Okay maybe a douchetard but I was aware of what I was doing and unlike most ws, I did no gaslighting, blameshifting, history rewritting and I didnt hide stuff from my ex. I really wanted om and hiding and lying would have made it harder, would have made me feel more guilty, and my ex deserved the truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

tonedef said:


> The male friends were harmless for the most part.


For the most part??


----------



## staystrong

walkingdead said:


> Im a bit late to the party, but had to login and add my two cents... To the posters who don't believe their affair hurt the kids...
> 
> My wh's affair killed the wife and mother I should have been. I was devastated. My oldest was 7 and youngest only 3. They have no idea thay this shell of a human used to sing around the house, play board games til bed time, laugh and play and always saw the bright side of life. I used to be fun and happy. My deepest depression lasted four out of last 8 yrs and I am no longer the mom I was. This affected my kids. He murdered the mom they rightfully had. One day, when trying to be her again, I tried singing a lullaby. My baby (now 11) didnt know the song or that I used to sing all of them to sleep every night. I am a shell of my former self just going thru the motions day by day. I pray to die every night.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We feel your pain. It is heart wrenching, and hard to pull away from something that seemed so full of love and light. Especially with young children involved, and those times of joy. 

It sounds like your depression has not been adequately treated. I hope you are seeing a psych or therapist - you may need antidepressants. It sounds like you need something strong.. please see someone ASAP. For your sanity and the well-being of your children.


----------



## tonedef

Staystrong- never talked to anyone. My issues with my eh were addressed where I messed up is how I addressed them. I SUCKED at communicating. I could have flat out told him what I wanted- in some cases I did but nothing ever got solved so how I communicated my discontent was through passive aggressive tendacies and slowly detaching. I have learned better communication skills but it helps that my h listens
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Served Cold

Rookie4 said:


> I would like to personally invite any wayward spouses, who might be lurking here on TAM, to post your stories and see if we can help you. There are a number of posters who will do their best to answer your questions and give you the best advice they have. Of course , there are also those who will attempt to berate and abuse you, but I feel that there are enough compassionate posters to , in part, shield you from the haters and abusers. TAM is a very worthwhile website, and can be a positive force in marriage reconciliation.


I'm new here and I sympathize with people who have gone against their own moral code and through it get back to the moral code they live by. Your post was good but you lost me with the "bashers and haters" part of your post...was that necessary?

I believe in forgiveness and redemption. What I don't believe in giving a cheater a Hail Mary pass. Does that make me a hater and abuser? Not sure what your post is really about. 

In my experience, I've never known a cheater who forgave being cheated on. I don't think cheating is unforgivable, but hypocrisy is alive and well in this world of our's, and I think that's a bigger problem when combined with cheating. Does that make me a hater? I'm sincerely interested to know if that's the case.


----------



## Zanne

tonedef said:


> I learned a very hard lessen and have way better boundaries, have no male friends, and my H and I try together to keep the passion alive. Also for me, the fog did not make me this dumb lovestruck douchtard. Okay maybe a douchetard but I was aware of what I was doing and unlike most ws, I did no gaslighting, blameshifting, history rewritting and I didnt hide stuff from my ex. I really wanted om and hiding and lying would have made it harder, would have made me feel more guilty, *and my ex deserved the truth.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But were you really thinking of your ex and his well being? It's commendable that you did not blameshift, etc., but I think your nice guy ex made it easy for you.


----------



## vellocet

Served Cold said:


> I'm new here and I sympathize with people who have gone against their own moral code and through it get back to the moral code they live by. Your post was good but you lost me with the "bashers and haters" part of your post...was that necessary?


Bingo. Which is why I said this thread really isn't about inviting WS lurkers as much as it is an extension of an argument from another thread.


----------



## tonedef

Zanne- he did make it easy for me. And see I never wrote him off as a bad guy so once I realized what I wanted I did try to soften the blow. It sounds counterintuitive cause hiding it would SEEM the way to do that but I would think telling him would better than him finding out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanne

tonedef said:


> Zanne- he did make it easy for me. And see I never wrote him off as a bad guy so once I realized what I wanted I did try to soften the blow. It sounds counterintuitive cause hiding it would SEEM the way to do that but I would think telling him would better than him finding out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But were you pursuing another man because you were done with your marriage? Because in that case, you really had nothing to lose by telling your ex. It's called an exit affair.

People keep secrets when they need or desire to keep the status quo. Obviously you were not afraid of losing your children either?

I'm not trying to belittle the attempts you did make with regard to being upfront and honest with your ex. Each situation is different.


----------



## Zanne

Served Cold said:


> I'm new here and I sympathize with people who have gone against their own moral code and through it get back to the moral code they live by. Your post was good but you lost me with the "bashers and haters" part of your post...was that necessary?
> 
> I believe in forgiveness and redemption. What I don't believe in giving a cheater a Hail Mary pass. Does that make me a hater and abuser? Not sure what your post is really about.
> 
> *In my experience, I've never known a cheater who forgave being cheated on. I don't think cheating is unforgivable, but hypocrisy is alive and well in this world of our's, and I think that's a bigger problem when combined with cheating.* Does that make me a hater? I'm sincerely interested to know if that's the case.


You raise a very good point about cheating which actually involves the topic of emotionally maturity. Just as someone can learn from past mistakes (being a cheater), they can learn to stand on their own and trust the people in their lives. That takes a lot of soul searching though!

Also, there's a difference between tough love and bashing. IMHO.


----------



## Zanne

Oh crap, I just realized that I said cheating is a mistake! You all know what I mean......


----------



## BetrayedDad

tonedef said:


> In my mind I was so detached from my then h, it was mentally equivalent to moving on and going on a date like a single person normally would. But I wasnt single. Yes I take full blame for everything. I was not powerless.


I absolutely believe that is what you felt. 

I hope now you realize how DELUSIONAL that frame of mind was considering you were still MARRIED. If you were truely checked out, then you were forcing your ex to live a lie long before you met the OM. You were just too selfish to do what's right (i.e. end the relationship) because it wasn't in your best interest. Instead, you waited till you found someone else to plan your exit affair. 

It's just a pretty sh!tty way to treat someone you vowed to be with forever... That's all I'm saying.


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## tonedef

I guess it was an exit affair. I said to myself if this does not work out- would I want my stbx back? I said no. I would never ever walk away from my kids or do anything that meant losing them. I had him promise he would not take them from me and he made me promise him I dont dictate how and when he sees them. We have both held our end of the bargain. I had the affair without the intention of still trying to lead my normal life. That would be cake eating. It would be wrong to both to lead each one on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

Zanne said:


> But were you pursuing another man because you were done with your marriage? Because in that case, you really had nothing to lose by telling your ex. It's called an exit affair.
> 
> People keep secrets when they need or desire to keep the status quo. Obviously you were not afraid of losing your children either?


Exactly. Like a monkey swing from branch to branch. Doesn't let of the old branch until the knew one is firmly in it's grasp. Unfortunately, that leaves the BS high and dry but, then again, exit affairs are all about self preservation aren't they? It's like a game of musical chairs and the BS doesn't know he's playing until the music stops.


----------



## BetrayedDad

tonedef said:


> I guess it was an exit affair. I said to myself if this does not work out- would I want my stbx back? I said no.


You may have said it to yourself but did you really mean it? Fortunately, your exit affair panned out for you so I guess we will never know. However, MANY a cheater have made that self rationalizing statement to ease the guilt of screwing over their spouses only to come CRAWLING back when the AP dumps them. 

You got lucky...


----------



## tonedef

BetrayedDad- you are right. It was messed up to wait until I had motivation but I went into it full knowing my ap could have dumped me but I would not come crawling back. My ex deserved better than that and it is apparent I needed fixin so I dont do that again
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karole

I believe that without a shadow of a doubt that infidelity also affects the kids. I lost all respect for my mother when I found out about her affair and she never got it back. I can also say with the utmost confidence that my brother and sister felt/feel the same way I do.


----------



## BetrayedDad

tonedef said:


> BetrayedDad- you are right. It was messed up to wait until I had motivation but I went into it full knowing my ap could have dumped me but I would not come crawling back. My ex deserved better than that and it is apparent I needed fixin so I dont do that again
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for your contributions to this thread.


----------



## staystrong

BetrayedDad said:


> You may have said it to yourself but did you really mean it? Fortunately, your exit affair panned out for you so I guess we will never know. However, MANY a cheater have made that self rationalizing statement to ease the guilt of screwing over their spouses only to come CRAWLING back when the AP dumps them.
> 
> You got lucky...


I think your target is not her, but other waywards. Probably your own. Certainly mine. 

Either way, she is reflecting. She knows she hurt her H and there's nothing she can do about it. Why not ask constructive questions instead of flaming her? It's done. Her first M is done. If her second M breaks down, would that be justice in your eyes? She f'ed up, it's clear she knows that. How and why she didn't do something years ago is her failure. She gets that. It could have been a lot more cruel. Thankfully, it was not.


----------



## tonedef

Look- I know I was a horrible person for what I did. I took full blame during and after. I know I could have taken the high road but didnt. My ex did know he was playing musical chairs but was surprised when the music stopped. He probably new the marriage was in jeopardy but was content in day to day life to make a move to fix things. I could have communicated better or took the high road and left with morals but I chose a different path. Nobody on this forum is telling me anything differently than I told myself. I do love my now husband and want it to continue to work and fortumately I have grown up and have gotten more educated in the last few years than I have all 32 yrs of my life, and like another poster said unfornately at the expense of my ex husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BjornFree

karole said:


> I believe that without a shadow of a doubt that infidelity also affects the kids. I lost all respect for my mother when I found out about her affair and she never got it back. I can also say with the utmost confidence that my brother and sister felt/feel the same way I do.


True enough. No matter how old we grow, parents will always represent some sense security and dependability. That perception is definitely altered if the child were to find out about a parent's affair. 

You don't necessarily have to be a bad parent to fvck your kid's life up. Just have a look at Tears. She's probably a very good parent who slipped up and boom. Nah, you don't have to be a bad parent....just a tad bit stupid and shortsighted, maybe a little selfish.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Feel free to disagree however you want. I was make a generalized statement about my experience in dealing with *most* cheaters and how they blame shift and justify their behavior and choices.
> 
> Do I think you can help them? Only the ones who own their mistake. Their is a place for people who made mistakes and want to make a mends...but part of making a mistake and making a mends is OWNING it not blame shifting and justifying which is all to common here,
> 
> Cheating is not a gender issue, situation issue, circumstance issue. It is a low character issue. And sometimes that can be recovered but it's rare. So for my own part i don't think they should be "cast into the darkness" lol but when they come on public forums and blame shift and justify I'm going to call them on it. It's funny because if you think they are so capable of change then they seeing what cheating does to other people should be the catalyst for that change.
> 
> When people are logging in and saying that affairs that cause divorce don't hurt kids I'm more Than allowed to disagree with that


Then , by all means , start a thread about children and affairs. This thread is NOT about kids and affairs. How many times do I have to say it? What I'm going to do is start reporting posts that have nothing to do with the original topic. I think I've been pretty clear about it.


----------



## Rookie4

Rookie4 said:


> Then , by all means , start a thread about children and affairs. This thread is NOT about kids and affairs. How many times do I have to say it? What I'm going to do is start reporting posts that have nothing to do with the original topic. I think I've been pretty clear about it.





vellocet said:


> Good advice for yourself the next time you don't like what a BS is saying.


I'm a BS, myself, so there goes your main b*tch about that. Look, I originated the thread and I have stated what it is about. Don't try to shift the point to suit you.


----------



## Zanne

karole said:


> I believe that without a shadow of a doubt that infidelity also affects the kids. I lost all respect for my mother when I found out about her affair and she never got it back. I can also say with the utmost confidence that my brother and sister felt/feel the same way I do.


True Karole, it does affect them. I'm not sure why your mother could never redeem herself in your eyes, but every situation is different.

I think it's valuable for you to share your experience with WS's to help them see a bigger picture, but it frustrates me when people do not want to believe a situation like Tonedef's where everyone seems to be doing well. Is it ideal? No. But it sounds like there are blessings in her second marriage and those needn't be ignored.

My kids are all very much a part of my life. They are adults now, except for my youngest who is 15, and they all reach out to me and keep me involved in their lives.

I know they don't agree with how I hurt their dad. That's a low point for me, for sure. And I am still dealing with the fall out. But I choose to believe in a brighter future and I will do everything to make that happen.

Even if a BS or WS comes here looking for advice and they find out that they are doing everything "wrong," people here can also play a part in giving them hope for the future - IF they are ready to hear it.


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie you probably should have just requested that the thread be locked after your initial post.


----------



## Pluto2

tonedef said:


> I was a wayward in my last marriage and ended up marrying him. I found this site while looking for help because of marital problems (go figure). Everything is fine now but I will say this site has opened my eyes to the hurt I caused in my last marriage. Only thing I do not get is how waywards are bad parents? I think it is selfish but I never neglected my kids and my ex and I coparent great. Hope this isn't considered thread jacking, and I guess I don't need advice (or do I?) but I will say I have learned my lesson and have way better boundaries now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Rookie,
This was the first post from a WS, the very ones you invited. She raised the issue and others have discussed it. Perhaps its not the aspect of infidelity you wanted to focus on, but such is the nature of a conversation.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Then , by all means , start a thread about children and affairs. This thread is NOT about kids and affairs. How many times do I have to say it? What I'm going to do is start reporting posts that have nothing to do with the original topic. I think I've been pretty clear about it.


Then do it. I stated before I was not the one who brought up the subject of the effects on kids nor do I have the biggest number of posts on the matter. Why you keep singling me out and not every other person who started it's beyond me


----------



## Wolf1974

Pluto2 said:


> Rookie,
> This was the first post from a WS, the very ones you invited. She raised the issue and others have discussed it. Perhaps its not the aspect of infidelity you wanted to focus on, but such is the nature of a conversation.


This is exactly what I was saying. I didn't bring this up at all. My guess is that he only want posts from people he agrees with??


----------



## Rookie4

Served Cold said:


> I'm new here and I sympathize with people who have gone against their own moral code and through it get back to the moral code they live by. Your post was good but you lost me with the "bashers and haters" part of your post...was that necessary?
> 
> I believe in forgiveness and redemption. What I don't believe in giving a cheater a Hail Mary pass. Does that make me a hater and abuser? Not sure what your post is really about.
> 
> In my experience, I've never known a cheater who forgave being cheated on. I don't think cheating is unforgivable, but hypocrisy is alive and well in this world of our's, and I think that's a bigger problem when combined with cheating. Does that make me a hater? I'm sincerely interested to know if that's the case.


You are new, so reserve judgment until you have been here a while. The pattern is that a WS will come here and post then will get page after page of hate posts and abuse , then leave. And nobody learns anything. The angry BS's seem to think that abuse is what TAM is about. The reasonable BS's try to help, and be positive.


----------



## Zanne

Rookie4 said:


> Then , by all means , start a thread about children and affairs. This thread is NOT about kids and affairs. How many times do I have to say it? What I'm going to do is start reporting posts that have nothing to do with the original topic. I think I've been pretty clear about it.


Actually, Rookie, I understood the topic about the effects of affairs on families to be one that was introduced by Tonedef.

You said that you would like to help WS's: "There are a number of posters who will do their best to answer your questions and give you the best advice they have."

She said that she didn't understand why people thought she was a bad mother because she had an affair.

Many answers ensued.


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> Rookie you probably should have just requested that the thread be locked after your initial post.


Your probably right. It is like herding cats, but what is truly offensive is when posters will tell ME what MY thread is all about. How pompous and insulting can you get?


----------



## Rookie4

Zanne said:


> Actually, Rookie, I understood the topic about the effects of affairs on families to be one that was introduced by Tonedef.
> 
> You said that you would like to help WS's: "There are a number of posters who will do their best to answer your questions and give you the best advice they have."
> 
> She said that she didn't understand why people thought she was a bad mother because she had an affair.
> 
> Many answers ensued.


Yes, I would really like Tonedef to start her own thread and tell her story. She seems like a very thoughtful person and it would be educational .


----------



## michzz

Rookie4 said:


> Your probably right. It is like herding cats, but what is truly offensive is when posters will tell ME what MY thread is all about. How *pompous and insulting* can you get?


Do you only take other commentaries about your thread as boldfaced above?

Another way of thinking about the subject can inform all of us beyond the parameters you set up. I'm not talking about threadjacking, btw.


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> You are new, so reserve judgment until you have been here a while. The pattern is that a WS will come here and post then will get page after page of hate posts and abuse , then leave. And nobody learns anything. The angry BS's seem to think that abuse is what TAM is about. The reasonable BS's try to help, and be positive.


It's important to remember ^this. If all we ever do is run off WS's w/ a bunch of bile and venom, we're doing nothing to help their respective BS's.

If this means that we need to bite our tongues a bit and sort of dial it back, rein it in, tone it down, etc, then we need to do it. Is it tough to do at times? F*ck yeah it is. I find myself editing, re-editing, and then re-re-editing some of my replies prior to posting them OR (in some cases) not even replying at all.


----------



## BetrayedDad

staystrong said:


> I think your target is not her, but other waywards. Probably your own. Certainly mine.
> 
> Either way, she is reflecting. She knows she hurt her H and there's nothing she can do about it. Why not ask constructive questions instead of flaming her? It's done. Her first M is done. If her second M breaks down, would that be justice in your eyes? She f'ed up, it's clear she knows that. How and why she didn't do something years ago is her failure. She gets that. It could have been a lot more cruel. Thankfully, it was not.


Flaming? hardly but this isn't the Mickey Mouse club either. Expect scrutiny on a public internet forum. I considered my questions to be constructive to me. No offense, but I don't really care what other posters think. I don't know what she acknowledges or doesn't until I engage her in conversation I find relevant to my situation. She's answered all of my retorts with compassion and sincerity. I believe she is remorseful and at least desires to be a better person if she isn't on her way their already. I respect her opinion even if I don't agree with her prior actions. I don't need "justice" from her, she didn't wrong me. I was merely pointing out the fact that in most cases an affair will end badly for the adulterers. In her case, she's in the lucky 3%.


----------



## Zanne

GusPolinski said:


> It's important to remember ^this. If all we ever do is run off WS's w/ a bunch of bile and venom, we're doing nothing to help their respective BS's.
> 
> If this means that we need to bite our tongues a bit and sort of dial it back, rein it in, tone it down, etc, then we need to do it. Is it tough to do at times? F*ck yeah it is. I find myself editing, re-editing, and then re-re-editing some of my replies prior to posting them OR (in same cases) not even replying at all.


You know what, Gus? Sometimes words need to be said.

I guess there's that moment when you decide to hit send and you weigh the risks. There are real people behind these words on the screen.

I will never forget when Wazza was banned for calling me a derogatory name. He must have weighed the risk before he decided to publish his post. I felt really bad afterward because I realized the point he was trying to make and he took a hit for it. 

On the other hand, I get frustrated when threads I participate in end up being locked because people can't reign it in.

Rookie, I wish you the best for this thread. I believe you have good intentions.


----------



## staystrong

BetrayedDad said:


> Flaming? hardly but this isn't the Mickey Mouse club either. Expect scrutiny on a public internet forum. I considered my questions to be constructive to me. No offense, but I don't really care what other posters think. I don't know what she acknowledges or doesn't until I engage her in conversation I find relevant to my situation. She's answered all of my retorts with compassion and sincerity. I believe she is remorseful and at least desires to be a better person if she isn't on her way their already. I respect her opinion even if I don't agree with her prior actions. I don't need "justice" from her, she didn't wrong me. I was merely pointing out the fact that in most cases an affair will end badly for the adulterers. In her case, she's in the lucky 3%.


Okay, fair enough. Maybe just ease down on the tone, if I can be so bold to ask. She's not an active wayward, and as you pointed out she's been humble. 

I think the point is .. the better the tone, the fewer fights about the purpose of the thread, and it becomes a more welcoming environment. 

PS - The stat you quoted could be way off. And it doesn't apply to AP's who choose to be together..


----------



## Regret214

Just pointing out that because this is a public internet forum does not give carte blanche. I think the public forum excuse for speaking one's mind shows simple weakness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

And I think attempting to censor people, with whom you don't agree, shows simple weakness. Everyone has a right to hear both sides of a topic and decide for themselves what they agree with. No one should be insulted but no one needs to be pampered either. We're all adults here.


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> Just pointing out that because this is a public internet forum does not give carte blanche. I think the public forum excuse for speaking one's mind shows simple weakness.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then what purpose does it serve? TAM is little more than people's opinions being shared in a forum. Very few actual facts are present here or in any thread. 

People go all over the place with their thoughts and comments. Heck many of the posts TAM wide are little more than rants and venting sessions. Doesn't mean that some good can't come from the discussion. Problem is that when someone has a subject and states their opinion on the matter someone is bound to disagree. I know that in those disagreements sometimes you can learn something new and possibly even about yourself.

Prior to coming to TAM for example I thought ALL cheaters were immoral lowlifes. And I mean every single one. But I have learned that some, although a small %, have actually made an uncharacteristic mistake and they own it. I never had that perspective before but learned it here.

When people get a little high on their pedestal and think their opinion is the only one that matters or should be discussed that's the real weakness.


----------



## GusPolinski

Zanne said:


> You know what, Gus? Sometimes words need to be said.


I'd actually think it to be much more important that certain thoughts be expressed rather than certain words or phrases be used in their expression.


----------



## Regret214

BetrayedDad said:


> And I think attempting to censor people, with whom you don't agree, shows simple weakness. Everyone has a right to hear both sides of a topic and decide for themselves what they agree with. No one should be insulted but no one needs to be pampered either. We're all adults here.


Who said anything about censoring? Is having simple manners a form of censoring? If so, then your last sentence is quite debatable.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Regret214 said:


> Who said anything about censoring? Is having simple manners a form of censoring? If so, then your last sentence is quite debatable.


You did.



Regret214 said:


> I think the public forum excuse for speaking one's mind shows simple weakness.


If I can't speak my mind, I'm being censored. Short of name calling, yelling fire in a movie theater, etc., everyone here should be able to express their opinion on an issue regardless of what you think of it.


----------



## Served Cold

Rookie4 said:


> You are new, so reserve judgment until you have been here a while. The pattern is that a WS will come here and post then will get page after page of hate posts and abuse , then leave. And nobody learns anything. The angry BS's seem to think that abuse is what TAM is about. The reasonable BS's try to help, and be positive.


hmmm... no offence, your entitled to your opinion but your message is rather biased. It seems passive aggressive, the underlying tone is a jab at some betrayed spouses than it is about helping a wayward spouse.

It's as though anyone who does not treat a wayward with kid gloves is an angry betrayed spouse. The tone of your OP is off putting.

I look back in my life as a teen, the best lessons I learned were from those who did not treat me with kid gloves. The hard straight truth is what served me best. It's like Stoner Bob, who warned me that my teachers and Principle Jones were haters.

It Big Boy World and a Big Girl World, and your backhanded warnings will scare off more way-wards than any so-called angry BS will. Just saying.....


----------



## bandit.45

No one on this forum deserves to be censored more than me.


----------



## tonedef

Its okay lol I deserve it, but I can also look past the tone and understand what is being said. I understand the anger, and its rightfully so. It isnt going to run someone off like me because I am always open to more enlightment- in fact I think I learned more today. I also have a lot of respect for the posters. To the betrayed spouses- I am sorry. I didnt kno the pain of an affair felt like a death. I wish I could take every bit away. Heres the thing- would a wayward spouse currently in an affair lurk here on their own? I would think they (most) wouldnt be open to self help and the ones who did show would run off- not because of the bashing perse' but because they dont want to hear it, and sadly never learn from their choices. The reason I learned is because I really did have heart to begin with and coming here and reading touched it. Didnt mean to sound cheesy lol but really. I knew I was wrong to begin with and never expected to be told I was justified unlike most ws.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

bandit.45 said:


> No one on this forum deserves to be censored more than me.


But Bandit, I thought you were banned. LOL


----------



## bandit.45

Pluto2 said:


> But Bandit, I thought you were banned. LOL


I've been banned so many times I lost count. I still think I hold the record. I believe it's seven times.


----------



## Pluto2

tonedef said:


> Its okay lol I deserve it, but I can also look past the tone and understand what is being said. I understand the anger, and its rightfully so. It isnt going to run someone off like me because I am always open to more enlightment- in fact I think I learned more today. I also have a lot of respect for the posters. To the betrayed spouses- I am sorry. I didnt kno the pain of an affair felt like a death. I wish I could take every bit away. Heres the thing- would a wayward spouse currently in an affair lurk here on their own? I would think they (most) wouldnt be open to self help and the ones who did show would run off- not because of the bashing perse' but because they dont want to hear it, and sadly never learn from their choices. The reason I learned is because I really did have heart to begin with and coming here and reading touched it. Didnt mean to sound cheesy lol but really. I knew I was wrong to begin with and never expected to be told I was justified unlike most ws.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you are making an excellent point. Very few practicing WS would ever come across a site like TAM, or venture into a thread like this. IMO, only former WS attempting some sort of self-discovery or reflection would wander in.
And I respect you for sticking around.


----------



## 1812overture

tonedef said:


> I guess it was an exit affair. I said to myself if this does not work out- would I want my stbx back? I said no. I would never ever walk away from my kids or do anything that meant losing them. I had him promise he would not take them from me and *he made me promise him I dont dictate how and when he sees them*. We have both held our end of the bargain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd really love to hear this guys side of the story. A promise may not be binding in court, but in this case it seems he didn't need it. Is it possible this man worked the unfortunate situation to his advantage, and thus extracted a sweet deal from his WAW? There are a couple of threads going on right now where this would be a favorable outcome.


----------



## pidge70

Pluto2 said:


> I think you are making an excellent point. Very few practicing WS would ever come across a site like TAM, or venture into a thread like this. IMO, only former WS attempting some sort of self-discovery or reflection would wander in.
> And I respect you for sticking around.


Oh, there is a practicing WS on this thread. Hell, they met their latest AP on this very forum.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

pidge70 said:


> Oh, there is a practicing WS on this thread. Hell, they met their latest AP on this very forum.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yuck, now I feel like I need to shower.


----------



## tonedef

1812- After everything was said and relatively done- he didnt want to be a twice weekend dad and I didnt want him to take them from me to spite me. So they are with me but he sees them whenever he wants. He only lives ten minutes away. If a divorcing couple could act like adults, I imagine that theory would work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

BetrayedDad said:


> You did.
> 
> 
> 
> If I can't speak my mind, I'm being censored. Short of name calling, yelling fire in a movie theater, etc., everyone here should be able to express their opinion on an issue regardless of what you think of it.


Imo you're confusing tact with censorship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> I'm a BS, myself, so there goes your main b*tch about that.


Not at all. It matters not whether you are a BS or a WS. You protest too much about BSs here, yet claim to be one yourself.

So if you don't like what they are saying, put your money where your mouth is and take your own advice.



> Look, I originated the thread and I have stated what it is about. Don't try to shift the point to suit you.


And I can say a turd smells like fresh flowers. It doesn't make it so.


----------



## doubletrouble

Served Cold said:


> hmmm... no offence, your entitled to your opinion but your message is rather biased. It seems passive aggressive, the underlying tone is a jab at some betrayed spouses than it is about helping a wayward spouse.
> 
> It's as though anyone who does not treat a wayward with kid gloves is an angry betrayed spouse. The tone of your OP is off putting.
> 
> I look back in my life as a teen, the best lessons I learned were from those who did not treat me with kid gloves. The hard straight truth is what served me best. It's like Stoner Bob, who warned me that my teachers and Principle Jones were haters.
> 
> It Big Boy World and a Big Girl World, and your backhanded warnings will scare off more way-wards than any so-called angry BS will. Just saying.....


Oddly enough -- and this demonstrates the differences not only in opinion but perception -- I read the OP as a "jab", if you will, at extremists. There are a few cruising the halls of TAM, and the TAM-participating wayward has historically been a sensitive subject on this board. 

We found one lurking wayward right off, and she's already contributed a great deal to TAM just in this thread. So I say the experiment is largely a success, Rookie.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> Yes, I would really like Tonedef to start her own thread and tell her story. She seems like a very thoughtful person and it would be educational .


Now this I agree with.


----------



## Zanne

pidge70 said:


> Oh, there is a practicing WS on this thread. Hell, they met their latest AP on this very forum.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See, how is this helpful, Pidge?

You remind me of one of those mean girls in high school.


----------



## vellocet

doubletrouble said:


> Oddly enough -- and this demonstrates the differences not only in opinion but perception -- I read the OP as a "jab", if you will, at extremists. There are a few cruising the halls of TAM, and the TAM-participating wayward has historically been a sensitive subject on this board.
> 
> We found one lurking wayward right off, and she's already contributed a great deal to TAM just in this thread. So I say the experiment is largely a success, Rookie.


It is a success because she is a WW that doesn't make excuses, doesn't paint her xhusband as the problem and reason she cheated, etc. She gets it, and for that has my respect.

But there are other WS's that will point the finger at the BS, blame them, and thinks they should be able to pull the puppet strings on a BS to make them act the way they want. If THAT kind of WS came in here, it would be a different story. And anyone that would defend that kind of despicable behavior, then what can I say?


----------



## pidge70

Zanne said:


> See, how is this helpful, Pidge?
> 
> You remind me of one of those mean girls in high school.


Did I mention the WS by name? I didn't even make my reply gender specific.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tonedef

It means a lot to me you all think I contribute well. I was always so hesitant to post because I dont want to bring out anger anyone is trying to overcome. I probably should and will eventually start my own thread to cover any gaps and to be of any help if possible. And again thank you all for your wisdom and insight! I look forward to continuing to learn more on this journey.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanne

pidge70 said:


> Did I mention the WS by name? I didn't even make my reply gender specific.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I asked how your comment was helpful. I don't think it was offered in the spirit Rookie intends here. IMO.


----------



## doubletrouble

vellocet said:


> It is a success because she is a WW that doesn't make excuses, doesn't paint her xhusband as the problem and reason she cheated, etc. She gets it, and for that has my respect.
> 
> But there are other WS's that will point the finger at the BS, blame them, and thinks they should be able to pull the puppet strings on a BS to make them act the way they want. If THAT kind of WS came in here, it would be a different story. And anyone that would defend that kind of despicable behavior, then what can I say?


All in all, still a success. 

However, one data point doesn't indicate a trend. 

The waywards who do come here and spout how rotten their BS is/was don't stick around long. I hear tell there are other websites better suited for that kind of mentality.


----------



## sidney2718

Turin74 said:


> 1st of all, please be assured that this is not a personal attack. In fact I have a lot of respect for ws' who accept the pain of posting here (while obviously not condoning unremorseful).
> 
> Answering your question - children have best childhood in an environment of stable marriage. If one of the parents creates, (s)he destabilises the marriage for the sake of his/her selfish needs, depriving the child from that environment. Therefore (s)he IS a bad parent even if kids are not neglected (fed, educated, etc).
> 
> Once again, not attacking nor accusing you, please consider this response as abstract.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


I don't think this is true. A couple considers divorce because they have problems. Staying together "for the children" often does not work because the children KNOW that the parents are not getting along. Many kids even blame themselves when the inevitable arguments start up.

It isn't just me saying this. Many studies have shown it.

On the other hand, as you say, divorce isn't always the right thing either. 

My best estimate is that parents that are happy (or happier) will parent their kids better than parents who are unhappy. If that means divorce then divorce it is.


----------



## sidney2718

tonedef said:


> I can understand my parenting being judged on any choices I make but do I deserve to always wear a scarlet letter for that one when I try to make it up to them any way I can and take full responsibility? Also my parents are divorced and there was some back and forth but it didn't bother me, plus I got the BEST step dad in the world. My kids do deserve what I took away and its something that haunts me. But if it means anything, everyone gets along. There is seemingly no bitterness. My husband and ex are friendly. My kids father sees them any time he wants. I do however find it sad that as a past wayward, I can't offer any sound advice. That fog everyone speaks of is serious stuff. I will say men and women cannot be just friends, and you are just a few words and a few thoughts away from an ea.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't see why your history precludes your offering advice here. In fact your insight would probably be very helpful.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Regret214 said:


> Imo you're confusing tact with censorship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Speaking my mind and adjusting my tone are two different concepts. 

Your opinion of tact is a subjective one. I obviously adhere to a different standard.


----------



## pidge70

Zanne said:


> I asked how your comment was helpful. I don't think it was offered in the spirit Rookie intends here. IMO.


I was replying to another poster's comment. If Rookie has a problem with my post, he can let me know.


----------



## Regret214

BetrayedDad said:


> Speaking my mind and adjusting my tone are two different concepts.
> 
> Your opinion of tact is a subjective one. I obviously adhere to a different standard.


LMAO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lovemytruck

tonedef said:


> It means a lot to me you all think I contribute well. I was always so hesitant to post because I dont want to bring out anger anyone is trying to overcome. I probably should and will eventually start my own thread to cover any gaps and to be of any help if possible. And again thank you all for your wisdom and insight! I look forward to continuing to learn more on this journey.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Catching back up for the day...

I really appreciated your description of your exBH. It is a mirror for the type of people many of us were in our marriages.

The lack of jealousy and his kindness were his problems. You seemed to have set up a test for him, and he failed.

He didn't learn to be less trusting.

I am taking notes for marriage #2. It is ironic that many a WS wanted their BS to fight for them. They wanted to be wanted.

It sounds like you are aware of these things, as well as your need to be more direct.

One last question, how would you feel if your exBH found and re-married a very high quality woman? Someone with beauty, brains, and high character?

Thanks for your input.


----------



## Zanne

pidge70 said:


> I was replying to another poster's comment. If Rookie has a problem with my post, he can let me know.


And as well he can let me know too. But I'm still calling you out on your comment because it's only purpose was to be an underhanded barb, IMO.


----------



## pidge70

Zanne said:


> And as well he can let me know too. But I'm still calling you out on your comment because it's only purpose was to be an underhanded barb, IMO.


You think too highly of yourself.


----------



## vellocet

Zanne said:


> And as well he can let me know too. But I'm still calling you out on your comment because *it's only purpose was to be an underhanded barb*, IMO.


Kind of like the very first post in this thread


----------



## Pluto2

Zanne said:


> And as well he can let me know too. But I'm still calling you out on your comment because it's only purpose was to be an underhanded barb, IMO.


Pidge's comment was in response to one of my post, in which I mentioned that an active WS would not come to TAM. I for one never took it as an underhanded barb.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Lovemytruck said:


> It is ironic that many a WS wanted their BS to fight for them.


Mine did, though I refused to fight for someone I lost all respect for when she commited adultery. 



Lovemytruck said:


> One last question, how would you feel if your exBH found and re-married a very high quality woman? Someone with beauty, brains, and high character?


Excellent question, wish I thought of it.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Regret214 said:


> LMAO.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That pretty much says it all. Thought so.


----------



## Regret214

BetrayedDad said:


> That pretty much says it all.


No, it actually doesn't. What it does is prove that you're just one of those guys who can't stand to be wrong and have to have the last word and that you use language proving you can't let that go.

I'd be curious if anyone else here thinks that having some tact when replying is akin to censorship.

Trust me, I'm using a lot of tact in forming my responses to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanne

Here's the thing, Pidge.... You don't scare me.

I do respect the opinions of people on this site, but I won't be bullied. I'm sure you all wish that I would fade into the sunset - or darkness, I guess.

Well, I don't post a lot, but when I do, I try to be mindful of other poster's feelings.

Now, a newer poster - a lurker perhaps, is maybe reading the things which are said here and they are backing out of the room, because unless you fit the mold of Mrs. J.A. or EI or the likes, it will be an unpleasant experience and ain't nobody got time for that misery.


----------



## staystrong

Lovemytruck said:


> It is ironic that many a WS wanted their BS to fight for them. They wanted to be wanted.


What are you specifically referring to?


----------



## Zanne

pidge70 said:


> You think too highly of yourself.


Somebody has to, otherwise people like you would stomp all over me.


----------



## bandit.45

Pidge.....Zanne....

I think I know a way to solve this. 

Give me a moment while I mix up some chocolate pudding and grab a kiddie pool.


----------



## Pluto2

wait a minute, ......getting the popcorm


----------



## pidge70

Zanne said:


> Here's the thing, Pidge.... You don't scare me.
> 
> I do respect the opinions of people on this site, but I won't be bullied. I'm sure you all wish that I would fade into the sunset - or darkness, I guess.
> 
> Well, I don't post a lot, but when I do, I try to be mindful of other poster's feelings.
> 
> Now, a newer poster - a lurker perhaps, is maybe reading the things which are said here and they are backing out of the room, because unless you fit the mold of Mrs. J.A. or EI or the likes, it will be an unpleasant experience and ain't nobody got time for that misery.


Oh for the love of God......where the Hell do you get the idea that I am trying to scare you? I could give a rat's a$$ what you think of me. Much like you could give a rat's a$$ what I think of you. 

Bottom line is, you are a serial cheat. You have been on this site what, 2yrs now? You are still cheating, met OM number 3? when you came here for "help'. You supposedly were going to tell OM's W about you and him, I am guessing that was delayed? 

As for EI and MrsJA.......I hear ya on that one. I am not of their ilk either and I am okay with that. I don't need to be a TAM darling to be okay with myself.


----------



## doubletrouble

Regret214 said:


> I'd be curious if anyone else here thinks that having some tact when replying is akin to censorship.


It is possible, with thought and wisdom, to be tactful and still get your point across. 

Not censorship.


----------



## doubletrouble

pidge70 said:


> Oh for the love of God......where the Hell do you get the idea that I am trying to scare you? I could give a rat's a$$ what you think of me. Much like you could give a rat's a$$ what I think of you.
> 
> Bottom line is, you are a serial cheat. You have been on this site what, 2yrs now? You are still cheating, met OM number 3? when you came here for "help'. You supposedly were going to tell OM's W about you and him, I am guessing that was delayed?
> 
> As for EI and MrsJA.......I hear ya on that one. I am not of their ilk either and I am okay with that. I don't need to be a TAM darling to be okay with myself.


Which of your posts has contributed to the stated intent of this thread?


----------



## pidge70

Pluto2 said:


> wait a minute, ......getting the popcorm


----------



## Zanne

bandit.45 said:


> Pidge.....Zanne....
> 
> I think I know a way to solve this.
> 
> Give me a moment while I mix up some chocolate pudding and grab a kiddie pool.


Thanks bandit, that actually makes me laugh. I'll back off.

........not that your idea doesn't sound like fun


----------



## pidge70

doubletrouble said:


> Which of your posts has contributed to the stated intent of this thread?


Again, I was replying to another poster with my original post. What part of that is not computing with you people?


----------



## doubletrouble

The one I quoted where you made a personal attack on Zanne didn't compute.


----------



## Lovemytruck

BetrayedDad said:


> Mine did, though I refused to fight for someone I lost all respect for when she commited adultery.


You see through my intent.

I think the BHs should learn VOLUMES from this thread. Respect for a WS should be flushed down the drain.

The other part of it for me is to see where tonedef is on remorse/jealousy with her ex. She hasn't lost him yet, she left him. I think it makes a big difference for many WSs.

No disrespect for you, tonedef, this is just a teaching moment for BHs that think they can win a WW back. Why would they want to do so? It is very healing for us to know that we can succeed after D.

tonedef you are one of those that sees what happened, and you are learning and helping others recover.

Zanne - I was a little more hopeful in this thread yesterday when I said I like where you were heading. I hope when the dust settles for you, and you will find what you are missing. I do wish your exBH could find his way to TAM. I am sure his head has lots of sharp edges floating around in it.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Regret214 said:


> No, it actually doesn't. What it does is prove that *you're just one of those guys* who can't stand to be wrong and have to have the last word and that you use language proving you can't let that go.
> 
> I'd be curious if anyone else here thinks that having some tact when replying is akin to censorship.
> 
> Trust me, I'm using a lot of tact in forming my responses to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd be curious if anyone here thinks it's okay to use sexism? 

I'm not sure what me being a male has to do with anything besides you attempting to direct some gender specific derogatory remark towards me. 

This is how you exercise tact? Gotcha.


----------



## Pluto2

doubltetrouble, you walked into the middle of an argument between Zanne and Pidge.
Which is kind of a recurring problem on this thread and TAM in general. People come, see one post and get their feathers riled without taking the time to read the entire thread.


----------



## pidge70

doubletrouble said:


> The one I quoted where you made a personal attack on Zanne didn't compute.
> 
> Actually, bringing in any disparaging comment about people without bringing facts, just innuendo, doesn't contribute to TAM in general.


Have you read her threads? She openly admitted to everything I stated. I did not attack her. If you feel I did, hit that fancy little report button. 

Any other issues with my posts, take it up with me via pm as I am done with the threadjacking. Apparently replying to another poster is not allowed so, thanks to you and Zanne for educating me to TAM etiquette.


----------



## Regret214

BetrayedDad said:


> I'd be curious if anyone here thinks it's okay to use sexism?
> 
> I'm not sure what me being a male has to do with anything besides you attempting to direct some gender specific derogatory remark towards me.
> 
> This is how you exercise tact? Gotcha.


LMAO. Again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

And double that last part was not a snipe at you (got to be on our PC toes here). That was directed to OTHER posters on OTHER threads who admit they haven't read the thread and chime in


----------



## lenzi

The last few pages of this thread read like they were thrown together by a bunch of elementary school children.

Just say'en.


----------



## Lovemytruck

tonedef said:


> Best advice can be going to lurking betrayeds. My ex was so passive, upset, did everything I read on here to not do. To affair proof a marriage, no opposite sex friends, not even on facebook. Always have transparency. Keep the passion alive. That is what my husband and I do now and I know a lot of you find that sickening bc I should have done that the first time! I know. Lesson learned. To the betrayed, if lines are ever crossed, you have to show you are not afraid to lose them. 180 them like crazy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Staystrong,

Here is a quote from tonedef yesterday.

Great advice from the other side of the aisle. She wants the exBH to be less passive. Show his control, and maybe even a little jealousy. It was too late for him when the EA started, IMO.

The 180? I wonder if she still would feel a twinge of jealousy if the exBH scored a better wife #2.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Regret214 said:


> LMAO. Again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thought so... Hypocrisy at it's finest. 

Not really surprised coming from a WS.


----------



## bandit.45

lenzi said:


> The last few pages of this thread read like they were thrown together by a bunch of elementary school children.
> 
> Just say'en.


A gang of monkeys humping the same football.


----------



## doubletrouble

Pluto2 said:


> doubltetrouble, you walked into the middle of an argument between Zanne and Pidge.
> Which is kind of a recurring problem on this thread and TAM in general. People come, see one post and get their feathers riled without taking the time to read the entire thread.


I read the whole thread. I also read Zanne's thread long ago; I wasn't referring to her. I think that other poster has a big spoon and likes to go around stirring. 

And there is, as you intimated, a classic problem with TAM. 

The other poster's first comment in this thread was about someone "in this thread" who is a wayward. No specifics, could be anyone. How does that contribute to this thread, whether in response to someone else's post or not? 

It doesn't. Why post it? To stir the pot. 

Rookie has apparently taken the day off and his thread has now unraveled. It was worth a shot, Rookie.


----------



## vellocet

doubletrouble said:


> It is possible, with thought and wisdom, to be tactful and still get your point across.
> 
> Not censorship.


I agree

However, if one decides not to use tact, or someone elses idea of tact, and someone thinks that a person's way of speaking should not be allowed, then that is censorship.

We gonna have the tact police out patrolling now?


----------



## Regret214

BetrayedDad said:


> Thought so... Hypocrisy at it's finest.
> 
> Not really surprised coming from a WS.


You still don't get it. I now understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

Regret214 said:


> You still don't get it. I now understand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Read the post above you and maybe you will understand.


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> As for EI and MrsJA.......I hear ya on that one. I am not of their ilk either and I am okay with that. I don't need to be a TAM darling to be okay with myself.


TAM darling?  I think you have me confused with someone else. I'm not referring to anyone, in particular, just not me. I speak my mind with far too much unbridled honesty to ever be considered a TAM darling. And, like you, I'm okay with that. 

But, thanks for the vote of confidence, I think. :scratchhead:


----------



## Regret214

Here, I'll spell out my ridiculous idea on tact.

THINK before you press Submit Reply.

Are you making a comment because your own spouse screwed you over and even though you've divorced her/him, yet don't have triggers due to cutting the "cancer" from your life? Then maybe don't post due to the obviousness that you can't cut your brain or anger out and you still suffer such a deep wound.

Or

Are you making a comment trying to enlighten yourself and possibly others to the destructive nature an extramarital affair causes?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

BetrayedDad said:


> Read the post above you and maybe you will understand.


I do understand. It appears you don't even know yourself.

Edit to add: That was a nice edit on your comment about me being a FORMER wayward. Nice touch. Again, I now understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

Regret214 said:


> Here, I'll spell out my ridiculous idea on tact.
> 
> THINK before you press Submit Reply.
> 
> Are you making a comment because your own spouse screwed you over and even though you've divorced her/him, yet don't have triggers due to cutting the "cancer" from your life? Then maybe don't post due to the obviousness that you can't cut your brain or anger out and you still suffer such a deep wound.


Oh dear, are you now referring to me and trying to drag me into an argument?

If so, I will oblige as to who really needs to "think" before doing anything.

If not, then carry on


----------



## Regret214

Thank you for your permission.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

oye vey! :slap:


----------



## Regret214

I know, right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

Hey, I've kept this thing civil, now you want to pull me into an argument with incivility and lack of "tact". Again, if you were referring to me, say so and I will oblige.


----------



## Regret214

I was not referencing you. I'm still not referring to you.

I'm referring to the frustration that can occur in this place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## staystrong

Lovemytruck said:


> Staystrong,
> 
> Here is a quote from tonedef yesterday.
> 
> Great advice from the other side of the aisle. She wants the exBH to be less passive. Show his control, and maybe even a little jealousy. It was too late for him when the EA started, IMO.
> 
> The 180? I wonder if she still would feel a twinge of jealousy if the exBH scored a better wife #2.


Yeah, it was probably too late for him. I feel for him; he must have been crushed and felt so unworthy.

Did Eat Pray Love or 50 Shades of Grey play into this at all? I'm afraid to ask. 

My guess is that she'll be very happy for her BH when he finds someone. Maybe some natural jealousy if the other woman is prettier or whatever. But remember, she doesn't feel as if her H is passionate enough or that he's changed. So there is still something 'meh' about him in her eyes. Something not edgy enough.


----------



## EI

Zanne said:


> Here's the thing, Pidge.... You don't scare me.
> 
> I do respect the opinions of people on this site, but I won't be bullied. I'm sure you all wish that I would fade into the sunset - or darkness, I guess.
> 
> Well, I don't post a lot, but when I do, I try to be mindful of other poster's feelings.
> 
> Now, a newer poster - a lurker perhaps, is maybe reading the things which are said here and they are backing out of the room, because unless you fit the mold of Mrs. J.A. or EI or the likes, it will be an unpleasant experience and ain't nobody got time for that misery.


Zanne, I don't wish you would fade into the sunset, and I certainly don't wish that you, or anyone else, would fade into the darkness. I suspect that you, like me, have already spent far too much of your time in the darkness....... some brought on by our own foolish choices, and some that was beyond our control. I do think that TAM would serve a greater purpose if everyone were able to share their story without being, or feeling, bullied. I believe that it is possible to respectfully agree to disagree and still get one's point across. However, after posting here, for over two years, I am not convinced that sentiment is shared by everyone. Perhaps, infidelity is such sensitive subject matter that it is virtually impossible to have an ongoing discussion without strong, negative emotions getting the best of all of us, at one time of another.

And, for what it's worth, my experience here has not been what I would describe as anything close to pleasant. It has been educational. It has taught me a lot about myself and a lot about other people, as well. Some good, some bad, all valuable.


----------



## sandc

EI said:


> Zanne, I don't wish you would fade into the sunset, and I certainly don't wish that you, or anyone else, would fade into the darkness. I suspect that you, like me, have already spent far too much of your time in the darkness....... some brought on by our own foolish choices, and some that was beyond our control. I do think that TAM would serve a greater purpose if everyone were able to share their story without being, or feeling, bullied. I believe that it is possible to respectfully agree to disagree and still get one's point across. However, after posting here, for over two years, I am not convinced that sentiment is shared by everyone. Perhaps, infidelity is such sensitive subject matter that it is virtually impossible to have an ongoing discussion without strong, negative emotions getting the best of all of us, at one time of another.
> 
> And, for what it's worth, my experience here has not been what I would describe as anything close to pleasant. It has been educational. It has taught me a lot about myself and a lot about other people, as well. Some good, some bad, all valuable.



TAM Mods, are you reading any of this?


----------



## Affaircare

Well the last several pages are why I don't generally encourage WS's to post or participate much in these kinds of threads. 

BUT I will say this. I have seen Disloyal Spouses come on here in the heat of their affair or as the emotional affair is building, and what they post is not rooted in reality, but it is what they honestly think/feel "at the moment." As a Disloyal posts what they honestly actually think, it can be fairly offensive to a BS if you don't read it with a grain of salt realizing it is not real reality but rather justifying their affair. 

It's been my experience that rather than debating "this or that did or did not happen"--I point out where their thinking diverts from logic. And unlike many of the voices in their lives telling them "you deserve better" or "do what makes you happy" I am the voice that encourages them to do the right thing: tell the truth; keep your promises; fix your family; rebuild love by putting as much effort into your SPOUSE as you do into the affair partner. They need a voice like that to combat the toxic friends. 

BUT the truth is that when a Wayward/Disloyal comes here, their head is a bit messed up. Not that they're nuts or anything but they've drunk the koolaide of "your kids will be fine" and "you are worth it" and "love is romantic" and "love is a feeling" and "your true love will meet all your needs"...all those kinds of messages that are blatantly false and permeating our society. 

So this is just me, but I wish Waywards could come here, speak what they truly think and feel even though we know it's pretty skewed, and then be shown where the error is and what the truth is. Some might learn to do better. Some may not, but at least they weren't attacked. 

I am not sure that is possible because people are awfully triggery here--but I can dream, right?

By the way, I want to personally call out one person: *Vellocet*. And not for the usual reasons! I believe Vellocet and I disagree on some things regarding Betrayed and Wayward spouses--after all, we are on opposite ends of the spectrum. For example, if a WS discusses "why" the affair occurred, I think that giving a reason is discussing the state of the marriage prior to the affair and is instrumental in discovering weaknesses and boundaries that the WS would need to work on; for personal responsibility reasons, not for "blaming the BS" reasons. I think Vellocet may believe something closer to "Any reason given is blameshifting--the only response is that there is no reasonable reason." BUT we aren't entirely on opposite ends because I was once betrayed also and can empathize with that view, and he was gracious enough to take time to hear what I was saying and at least understand it--even though he disagreed. 

So I'm calling him out because even though we do disagree, we have the pleasure of behaving in a way that is 'not the same' but respectful of each other. I wanted to mention out loud how much I appreciate that, and encourage *everyone *to behave like that.


----------



## vellocet

Regret214 said:


> I was not referencing you. I'm still not referring to you.
> 
> I'm referring to the frustration that can occur in this place.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


well I have stated before that I no longer have triggers because I got rid of the "cancer". So hmmmmm


----------



## Lovemytruck

EI said:


> Zanne, I don't wish you would fade into the sunset...
> 
> ...It has been educational. It has taught me a lot about myself and a lot about other people, as well. Some good, some bad, all valuable.


:iagree:

Amen EI.

Sometimes we dish it out, and sometimes we take a beating. Most of us have done a little of both.

Remember those that read every kernel of these posts for their benefit. The arguments can be painful, but diamonds are often found.


----------



## vellocet

I too would now want to see Zanne fade out. Much respect.


----------



## bigtone128

Well, in fairness, to BSs - me being one of them, many of the WSs who come on here are, in fact, deeply in the fog and do not realize how deep they are in it they are and how they got on the road to where they destroyed everything precious in their lives. I agree with AC in that they are caught up in a world where there are sugarplums and fairies. They need harsh reality to get them to see it. As has been stated - you cannot "nice" someone out of an affair. This is why. I think the responses on here are appropriate most often than not and it is what determines the WSs who change things in their lives and those who do not.


----------



## tonedef

Never read 50 shades or the like, I just simply befriended a man and fell in love and still am 5 years later. If my ex found a dream woman I'd be happy for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doubletrouble

vellocet said:


> I too would *now* want to see Zanne fade out. Much respect.


Typo, right, my friend?


----------



## Regret214

vellocet said:


> well I have stated before that I no longer have triggers because I got rid of the "cancer". So hmmmmm


I don't know anything of you or your story. I've been here over two years and have seen it written that way since the beginning. So, hmmm. I have no earthly idea who you are even.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

staystrong said:


> Yeah, it was probably too late for him. I feel for him; he must have been crushed and felt so unworthy.
> 
> Did Eat Pray Love or 50 Shades of Grey play into this at all? I'm afraid to ask.
> 
> My guess is that she'll be very happy for her BH when he finds someone. Maybe some natural jealousy if the other woman is prettier or whatever. But remember, she doesn't feel as if her H is passionate enough or that he's changed. So there is still something 'meh' about him in her eyes. Something not edgy enough.


50 Shades of Grey. E L James, the author. I think she is quite pretty.


----------



## jmiller2020

tonedef said:


> Oh and I guess I never wondered why he was not jealous bc my mentality was almost the same. Believe it or not, I actually had the mild jealousy. Also to pull of the perfect 180 you cant be afraid to lose them. One thing though, is there a way one can tell the difference between affair fog and actually feeling real love?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am only this far in reading the posts so I am not sure if this question has been answered already. In my opinion it is always fog when you are falling in love. Whether it be an affair or new love. All the brain chemicals (that you all know too well) are doing their job in order to entice the couple to become monogamous. 

In my opinion there is very little difference between someone experiencing a heroin high versus an infatuation (lust) obsession. 

Real love... Well real love sets in after reality sets in and the lust chemicals settle down. I liken this process to having beer goggles on for an extended period of time and then taking them off to see who you are really with. When you remove the beer googles (or the fog lifts) you take a look at who your with and the situation. You decide if you are going to accept the annoyances (you once thought were adorable) and love them for who they really are. 

That is real love. Living in reality, experiencing real life and real stress in the day light not lurking in shadows. 

I do not agree that we have to give up that new love high for real love. I believe you can dance between the two worlds. You just have to have a partner willing to dance with you

The answer to your question: if someone in the fog can they tell the difference.... I would say not really but if you are in that situation and find yourself asking, "am I really in love with this person or is it the 'affair fog I am reading about?'" Just give it time. Slow down and give it time. 

I always like to ask people to let some reality seep in and see how the affair partner reacts. Bills, child rearing stressors, other drama that is experienced and absorbed in real love... then watch the dream come crashing down and the fog will vanish in a hurry.

I am not saying go complain to your AP (because I am sure there are many WS right now that are like -yep I talk about real stress all the time with my AP) no it is easy for the AP to be super empathetic when the criticisms are not directed at him/her or the drama doesn't include him/her. Not the same when your line of fire is directed at them, I guarantee it.


----------



## tonedef

Jmiller- that makes great sense. The reality is whether we are married and fall for someone else or single and fall for someone- both create the same feelings of fresh young love. When reality kicks in and rose colored glasses come off- that is when you realize whether you want to stay with them because you still love despite them. My now H wasnt as perfect as I initially thought, but I still saw the person I fell for and I still do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

EI said:


> TAM darling?  I think you have me confused with someone else. I'm not referring to anyone, in particular, just not me. I speak my mind with far too much unbridled honesty to ever be considered a TAM darling. And, like you, I'm okay with that.
> 
> But, thanks for the vote of confidence, I think. :scratchhead:


I kind of get what Pidge is saying. There are a lot of people here who will say or imply that the truly remorseful, most model former waywards are~ and then they list you, Mrs. JA, and usually one or two other people. Sometimes people make it sound like you are the ONLY truly remorseful former waywards on TAM, or the only ones "doing it right". 

You guys ARE wonderful, though, and do make good role-models.  And more besides that I've come across on here. Some of the sweetest, best people I've ever "met" are former waywards on TAM!


----------



## tonedef

Buuut that love feeling can drop, slowly fade, last forever- and how we handle each situation is unique. Some fight to keep that giddy in love feeling and for others it just comes natural.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Philat

pidge70 said:


> As for EI and MrsJA.......I hear ya on that one. I am not of their ilk either and I am okay with that. I don't need to be a TAM darling to be okay with myself.


Hold on there, Pidge. If you don't think Mrs. JA and EI (and Regret, and Mrs_Mathias, and pretty much any former wayward spouse) has taken more than their fair share of abuse here, you haven't been paying attention.


----------



## pidge70

Philat said:


> Hold on there, Pidge. If you don't think Mrs. JA and EI (and Regret, and Mrs_Mathias, and pretty much any former wayward spouse) has taken more than their fair share of abuse here, you haven't been paying attention.


Sp explained it for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jmiller2020

staystrong said:


> ToneDef, I hope you will stay on.
> 
> Zanne, Pluto2 is right.. that's what I was essentially saying. I think all of us agree that divorce is the MUCH preferred option to infidelity.
> 
> Most people who fall in love, live together (married or otherwise) and have children don't plan on getting divorced. I'm talking about the general run-of-the-mill marriage where two people ostensibly love and care for another, have sex twice a week, plan their weekends with friends and family, date nights when they can get them, etc. They like attention from the opposite sex from time to time but they block it (maybe after a little flirting) and go back to the happy home. Maybe they have mini-EA's without being aware of what those even are. Basically, a stable healthy marriage where some things may be missing but they count their blessings. They intend to spend the rest of their lives together as a couple, a force, a team. They mostly bring up issues if they have them and they think they give those issues their due importance. Those marriages run the risk of becoming routine and sometimes one of the spouses falls victim to attraction and opportunity. Those aren't marriages which should fail, by any sensible measure. But they do because of an outside influence, when the thought of "I can't do this to my spouse or family" is overridden. Dopamine trumps .. what's the mature love bonding chemical again? Anyhow, that's the setup. What once seemed unbreakable has now in reality become very fragile. Worse, the person they married has become a nightmare to them. An alien, an enemy. That's the reality for a lot of people who show up on these boards. Some married bad apples, true, but many just married someone who let their guard down and followed the wayward path.
> 
> 
> My question to ToneDef was in regard to how her husband dismissed her issues. I'd really like to know what she specifically said to him and what his response was. This is a complaint often made and I'd like to know more about the thought process there.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## jmiller2020

tonedef said:


> Buuut that love feeling can drop, slowly fade, last forever- and how we handle each situation is unique. Some fight to keep that giddy in love feeling and for others it just comes natural.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't agree. I think we all need to fight to keep the giddy. It is when you do take your eyes off of it does it slowly bleed out and eventually die. No one is immune to this or 'naturally' gifted they are always working on it, you are just not with them 24 hours a day to bear witness.

We don't need a soul mate. What we need to find is our work mate. Someone that will fight to keep the desire there.


----------



## Rookie4

michzz said:


> Do you only take other commentaries about your thread as boldfaced above?
> 
> Another way of thinking about the subject can inform all of us beyond the parameters you set up. I'm not talking about threadjacking, btw.


No, what I am saying is to grind your axes , elsewhere. 
I started the thread and some posters don't like it, so are doing their best to derail it by snide and nasty comments about me and my original idea. Which simply proves what I was refering to in the original post. Coincidentally, these are the same types of posters who will bash a WS .


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Then what purpose does it serve? TAM is little more than people's opinions being shared in a forum. Very few actual facts are present here or in any thread.
> 
> People go all over the place with their thoughts and comments. Heck many of the posts TAM wide are little more than rants and venting sessions. Doesn't mean that some good can't come from the discussion. Problem is that when someone has a subject and states their opinion on the matter someone is bound to disagree. I know that in those disagreements sometimes you can learn something new and possibly even about yourself.
> 
> Prior to coming to TAM for example I thought ALL cheaters were immoral lowlifes. And I mean every single one. But I have learned that some, although a small %, have actually made an uncharacteristic mistake and they own it. I never had that perspective before but learned it here.
> 
> When people get a little high on their pedestal and think their opinion is the only one that matters or should be discussed that's the real weakness.


Civility and courtesy is NOT censorship, and you know it.


----------



## Rookie4

Zanne said:


> You know what, Gus? Sometimes words need to be said.
> 
> I guess there's that moment when you decide to hit send and you weigh the risks. There are real people behind these words on the screen.
> 
> I will never forget when Wazza was banned for calling me a derogatory name. He must have weighed the risk before he decided to publish his post. I felt really bad afterward because I realized the point he was trying to make and he took a hit for it.
> 
> On the other hand, I get frustrated when threads I participate in end up being locked because people can't reign it in.
> 
> Rookie, I wish you the best for this thread. I believe you have good intentions.


Thank you, I'm doing the best I can.


----------



## Rookie4

Served Cold said:


> hmmm... no offence, your entitled to your opinion but your message is rather biased. It seems passive aggressive, the underlying tone is a jab at some betrayed spouses than it is about helping a wayward spouse.
> 
> It's as though anyone who does not treat a wayward with kid gloves is an angry betrayed spouse. The tone of your OP is off putting.
> 
> I look back in my life as a teen, the best lessons I learned were from those who did not treat me with kid gloves. The hard straight truth is what served me best. It's like Stoner Bob, who warned me that my teachers and Principle Jones were haters.
> 
> It Big Boy World and a Big Girl World, and your backhanded warnings will scare off more way-wards than any so-called angry BS will. Just saying.....


You are entitled to your opinion, but please be polite about expressing it. thank you.


----------



## jim123

EI said:


> TAM darling?  I think you have me confused with someone else. I'm not referring to anyone, in particular, just not me. I speak my mind with far too much unbridled honesty to ever be considered a TAM darling. And, like you, I'm okay with that.
> 
> But, thanks for the vote of confidence, I think. :scratchhead:


When Spielberg made poltergeist, he used all his fears as a child.

You are all the fears of many BH. What I learned from you is despite all these fears and even if these fears are real, anything can be overcome or fixed.


----------



## jim123

bandit.45 said:


> Pidge.....Zanne....
> 
> I think I know a way to solve this.
> 
> Give me a moment while I mix up some chocolate pudding and grab a kiddie pool.


Bandit what kind of comment is this. You know better.

Cherry jello works best.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Civility and courtesy is NOT censorship, and you know it.


That's nice when did I say anything about censorship. Seriously dude are you even reading my posts....like at all???


----------



## SosoBroken

One can appear to be civil, while being cruel, by being tactful.. they can have an agenda, or other intentions that words on a page may not convey in a clear manner.

Is the OP of this thread really looking to create a safe haven for WS to post and not be attacked? Or is he looking for a place to get into arguments and confrontations with BS that don't agree with his points of view?

As for public forums and anonymity. If you post a comment in a public forum, you might not like the replies. Because you don't like the replies, does not mean people aren't being tactful or nice, it means they don't agree with your opinion. 

I would say that anyone saying they were being a good parent "WHILE" they were cheating, is delusional and might want to consider that they are still lying to themselves. If I say this, am I being mean and hurtful to former WS here? Will Regret be upset with me for saying it? Is it okay for me to have an opinion on that or will Rookie report me for not being nice enough to WS and chasing them away?

Can BS feel safe to post here without getting attacked for getting insulted when people try to sneak this kind of thing by us? Stating that we can't speak for every case, as if there are certain cases where cheating can be beneficial to children? 

Perhaps in these cases, the affair really did make mommy a better mommy because she was happier and all those things the cheaters tell themselves, does a WS ever stop and think that perhaps there are BS on this forum that didn't have a cheating spouse that was also a great parent and wonderful role model? Perhaps we should help her feel better about how she was doing a great job of parenting while she was cheating, it was OUR spouse that was a bad parent? Or, would it not be better to point out the problems with this distorted thought process, and show how it's a common thing cheaters like to tell themselves. Perhaps Rookie should start a thread to find out how many WS were wonderful parents while they were cheating. How many had better relationships with the children after they found out about the affair? 

We claim to want to educate ourselves and learn from this forum.

What is the lesson we want to learn from Regret, that you can be a good parent and still cheat? You can cheat and still be a good parent? Parenting isn't that hard? 

What I learned? Even supposed remorseful wayward spouses sometimes say things that make me wonder if they really do ever 'get it'. It shows how they still need to convince themselves that the choice they made to cheat didn't really hurt everyone as bad as other people that cheated hurt people.. 

She can't tell the difference the impact of cheating will have on children vs. smoking cigarettes. To her they are both a bad parenting thing.. 

Regret, your child walks in the house.. they catch you smoking. You have a talk with them about the dangers of smoking. Child walks in the house, catches you having sex with someone they don't know, but they know it's not dad. How does that talk go?


----------



## jim123

SosoBroken said:


> One can appear to be civil, while being cruel, by being tactful.. they can have an agenda, or other intentions that words on a page may not convey in a clear manner.
> 
> Is the OP of this thread really looking to create a safe haven for WS to post and not be attacked? Or is he looking for a place to get into arguments and confrontations with BS that don't agree with his points of view?
> 
> As for public forums and anonymity. If you post a comment in a public forum, you might not like the replies. Because you don't like the replies, does not mean people aren't being tactful or nice, it means they don't agree with your opinion.
> 
> I would say that anyone saying they were being a good parent "WHILE" they were cheating, is delusional and might want to consider that they are still lying to themselves. If I say this, am I being mean and hurtful to former WS here? Will Regret be upset with me for saying it? Is it okay for me to have an opinion on that or will Rookie report me for not being nice enough to WS and chasing them away?
> 
> Can BS feel safe to post here without getting attacked for getting insulted when people try to sneak this kind of thing by us? Stating that we can't speak for every case, as if there are certain cases where cheating can be beneficial to children?
> 
> Perhaps in these cases, the affair really did make mommy a better mommy because she was happier and all those things the cheaters tell themselves, does a WS ever stop and think that perhaps there are BS on this forum that didn't have a cheating spouse that was also a great parent and wonderful role model? Perhaps we should help her feel better about how she was doing a great job of parenting while she was cheating, it was OUR spouse that was a bad parent? Or, would it not be better to point out the problems with this distorted thought process, and show how it's a common thing cheaters like to tell themselves. Perhaps Rookie should start a thread to find out how many WS were wonderful parents while they were cheating. How many had better relationships with the children after they found out about the affair?
> 
> We claim to want to educate ourselves and learn from this forum.
> 
> What is the lesson we want to learn from Regret, that you can be a good parent and still cheat? You can cheat and still be a good parent? Parenting isn't that hard?
> 
> What I learned? Even supposed remorseful wayward spouses sometimes say things that make me wonder if they really do ever 'get it'. It shows how they still need to convince themselves that the choice they made to cheat didn't really hurt everyone as bad as other people that cheated hurt people..
> 
> She can't tell the difference the impact of cheating will have on children vs. smoking cigarettes. To her they are both a bad parenting thing..
> 
> Regret, your child walks in the house.. they catch you smoking. You have a talk with them about the dangers of smoking. Child walks in the house, catches you having sex with someone they don't know, but they know it's not dad. How does that talk go?


Sorry for you pain. I am a BS. If we have a civil forum, you can do the most important thing you need and that is to heal.

Part of what you need is to understand. A strong forum will do that. A few years ago we had a strong forum. The best advise was given by the WW and they helped many BH through the most difficult time of his life.

We can be angry. We can hate. I would rather heal. It was bad cheated, bad she left me. (at the time) However, I never made her right about doing it.


----------



## Regret214

I don't know how it goes Soso. Because that didn't happen. I refuse to play with hypothetical questions, especially being over 2 years in reconciliation. If you've read enough here, you would know about compartmentalization. It's what I did and I suspect many others as well.

I guess according to your logic, I'm still delusional and lying. That's fine, luckily Dig doesn't and he would know since he's my husband living under the same roof. Not a faceless name on the net.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SosoBroken

Regret214 said:


> I don't know how it goes Soso. Because that didn't happen. I refuse to play with hypothetical questions, especially being over 2 years in reconciliation. If you've read enough here, you would know about compartmentalization. It's what I did and I suspect many others as well.
> 
> I guess according to your logic, I'm still delusional and lying. That's fine, luckily Dig doesn't and he would know since he's my husband living under the same roof. Not a faceless name on the net.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Does Dig agree that you were being a good parent while you were cheating? I'm saying you're delusional if you think that you can be a good parent and cheat on your spouse at the same time. I'm also saying you're delusional if you think that smoking (not a good parenting lesson) is on par with infidelity (a much more damaging lesson).


----------



## Served Cold

Rookie4 said:


> You are entitled to your opinion, but please be polite about expressing it. thank you.


No offence but this made me laugh politely. I appreciate your thank you and return the thank you.


----------



## Regret214

SosoBroken said:


> Does Dig agree that you were being a good parent while you were cheating? I'm saying you're delusional if you think that you can be a good parent and cheat on your spouse at the same time. I'm also saying you're delusional if you think that smoking (not a good parenting lesson) is on par with infidelity (a much more damaging lesson).


Yes. He does feel I was still a good parent regardless of my transgressions.

Any other things besides delusional you'd like to call me?

Edit to add...and if I smoked around my children and they developed asthma, cancer or bronchitis I guess that's no biggie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SosoBroken

Regret214 said:


> Yes. He does feel I was still a good parent regardless of my transgressions.
> 
> Any other things besides delusional you'd like to call me?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He feels you were being a good parent DURING your transgressions? He doesn't feel that risking your marriage was a bad thing for the children? He was cool with you taking that chance with their future and security? I'm assuming they never found out about your cheating, since they felt no impact whatsoever.

I couldn't find a word other than delusional to fit this scenario. How about 'crazy talk'?


----------



## Wolf1974

If you two wouldn't mind not talking about kids and the affect affairs have on them I would appreciate it. I seem to get blamed for all those posts for some reason.


----------



## Regret214

They know nothing of the affair as they were too young. Also, Dig and I never argued in front of them. Even in all of his anger, hurt and pain he never let them see it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SosoBroken

Regret214 said:


> Yes. He does feel I was still a good parent regardless of my transgressions.
> 
> Any other things besides delusional you'd like to call me?
> 
> Edit to add...and if I smoked around my children and they developed asthma, cancer or bronchitis I guess that's no biggie.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't remember saying that smoking around your children was a good thing, or good parenting. 

So are you saying that smoking cigarettes makes you just as bad of a parent as cheating on your spouse? Would you rate them at about the same level on the parenting meter? Where do you rate locking your kid in a car in the sun, is that about the same as smoking too? It's also bad parenting...


----------



## SosoBroken

Regret214 said:


> They know nothing of the affair as they were too young. Also, Dig and I never argued in front of them. Even in all of his anger, hurt and pain he never let them see it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Even though he never let them see it, do you think it effected him? His interactions with them? His general mood? How you interacted as a couple? Sometimes you think you hide things from children, and they pick up on more than you know. If your children were tiny, babies, then perhaps this doesn't apply. I'm taking of chilren, that are able to walk and talk. Not be carried around in baby carriers. But even then, by cheating you are putting someone else above them. Not by ignoring to feed them or not putting them to bed, but by disrespecting their father. That's not what a good parent does. Now you are being faithful to Dig, that's what a good parent does.


----------



## Regret214

Good grief.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Regret214 said:


> Good grief.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Rookie OP*________________________________________
> I would like to personally invite any wayward spouses, who might be lurking here on TAM, to post your stories and see if we can help you. There are a number of posters who will do their best to answer your questions and give you the best advice they have. Of course, there are also those who will attempt to berate and abuse you, but I feel that there are enough compassionate posters to, in part, shield you from the haters and abusers. TAM is a very worthwhile website, and can be a positive force in marriage reconciliation



In my opinion Rookie has put this thread up out of sincerity. It has been insinuated that Rookie put this thread up to get into conflict with other posters. I know a just little about Rookie and if he wanted conflict you would know it in his first few posts. Rookie is as blunt as I am and speaks his mind without hidden meanings. Rookie and I have had our battles.


I am a BS and will try and defend any WS that is honest and is seeking help. My wife was a WS and is a good person. I do believe that people need 2nd chances and can change. 
I also believe that everyone on this TAM forum will need a 2nd chance for something in their lives on more than one occasion. *If you want a second chance will you allow others a second chance?*

I am very aware of the sting of betrayal and all the negatives that go with that. However, *Rookie has made it very clear that this thread is for making it SAFE for the WS to come here and share so that we can help each other*. The operative word here is SAFE. I know that there are issues that are true about WS that can be hurtful but yet helpful but this is not the thread for that.



This thread is an attempt to get (WS) hurting people to post their stories in a safe environment so that we can all learn and maybe help. *If you are going to keep within Rookie’s purpose for this thread then post what would help a WS feel safe in opening up.*


If it is not your bag to make a WS safe to post then there are a lot of other threads that will welcome your posts. In fact you can even start one of those threads yourself. I may even join in on those threads.


----------



## Turin74

While I'm relatively new on Tam since I posted here, I feel it is appropriate for me to suggest the following :

Can we please discuss these sensitive issues in this thread in a more abstract / non biased way, asking fws's who cared to join for their input or opinion without turning this back on them or/and criticising their particular circumstances (unless they cross the boundaries of lying, etc)? Because there other threads more suitable for the later and they have their own spouses to answer to. 

In other words, irrespective from one's circumstances and beliefs it is pointless to invite "the other side" and then bash them. 



SosoBroken said:


> Even though he never let them see it, do you think it effected him? His interactions with them? His general mood? How you interacted as a couple? Sometimes you think you hide things from children, and they pick up on more than you know. If your children were tiny, babies, then perhaps this doesn't apply. I'm taking of chilren, that are able to walk and talk. Not be carried around in baby carriers. But even then, by cheating you are putting someone else above them. Not by ignoring to feed them or not putting them to bed, but by disrespecting their father. That's not what a good parent does. Now you are being faithful to Dig, that's what a good parent does.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## honcho

How does this post always end up debating parenting?


----------



## Rookie4

honcho said:


> How does this post always end up debating parenting?


Your guess is as good as mine.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> That's nice when did I say anything about censorship. Seriously dude are you even reading my posts....like at all???


Wolf, I really do apologize. I meant that post to refer to the post previous to yours, but scrolled down one post too many. My GF brought me some fresh , warm chocolate chip cookies and I lost my place. My Bad, entirely.


----------



## Wolf1974

Fair enough. I like cookies as well


----------



## Zanne

EI said:


> Zanne, I don't wish you would fade into the sunset, and I certainly don't wish that you, or anyone else, would fade into the darkness. I suspect that you, like me, have already spent far too much of your time in the darkness....... some brought on by our own foolish choices, and some that was beyond our control. I do think that TAM would serve a greater purpose if everyone were able to share their story without being, or feeling, bullied. I believe that it is possible to respectfully agree to disagree and still get one's point across. However, after posting here, for over two years, I am not convinced that sentiment is shared by everyone. Perhaps, infidelity is such sensitive subject matter that it is virtually impossible to have an ongoing discussion without strong, negative emotions getting the best of all of us, at one time of another.
> 
> And, for what it's worth, my experience here has not been what I would describe as anything close to pleasant. It has been educational. It has taught me a lot about myself and a lot about other people, as well. Some good, some bad, all valuable.


Thanks, EI. I appreciate your support! 

And I agree, it may be impossible to have ongoing discussions between BS's and WS's on this forum without chaos erupting. I'm surprised this thread is still alive.

Also, like you, some of my unpleasant experiences here have been the most educational.

This forum is largely male BS's and maybe that dynamic should be left alone, with moderation of course. I don't have a need to stir things up here. It is what it is.


----------



## walkingdead

Zanne said:


> I'm sorry for what you went through with your husband's betrayal, but YOU have the ability to be content with life. You're giving him way too much credit (power). Quite frankly, you chose to stop singing to your kids. I hope you are in a healthier place now, for their sake.


You are wrong. I did not choose any of this. obviously you've not been gutted by the pain of infidelity by a partner of nearly 20yrs, whom you thought was INCAPABLE of this, who also keeps the pain white hot thru denials to this day, continued lies and gaslighting.... Can't heal when it's ongoing. [email protected] you. I didnt choose to become this person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## karole

walkingdead said:


> You are wrong. I did not choose any of this. obviously you've not been gutted by the pain of infidelity by a partner of nearly 20yrs, whom you thought was INCAPABLE of this, who also keeps the pain white hot thru denials to this day, continued lies and gaslighting.... Can't heal when it's ongoing. [email protected] you. I didnt choose to become this person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is still in an affair with her like third or fourth OM and the current OM is also married. She obviously doesn't have a lot of sympathy for betrayed spouses.


----------



## Rookie4

Zanne said:


> Thanks, EI. I appreciate your support!
> 
> And I agree, it may be impossible to have ongoing discussions between BS's and WS's on this forum without chaos erupting. I'm surprised this thread is still alive.
> 
> Also, like you, some of my unpleasant experiences here have been the most educational.
> 
> This forum is largely male BS's and maybe that dynamic should be left alone, with moderation of course. I don't have a need to stir things up here. It is what it is.


I don't believe that any marriage forum , which is homogenous in nature, will truly be able to help increase any real understanding of the issues facing victims of infidelity, without a large and vocal WS segment. Betrayed spouses, without the insight into the WS's thinking, will continue to blame the WS for all of their problems, in much the same way as some WS's blame The BS, entirely for their cheating, and nobody will take responsibility for the actions that caused the infidelity, whatever those actions might have been. 
Like the great cartoonist , Walt Kelly said, "Marriage is a two-handed game of solitaire". In order to be successful, both hands must be usefully employed and satisfied with the success of the game.


----------



## walkingdead

tonedef said:


> I know it is common for a ws to blameshift but I never did. I just slowly detached, not because of the distractions but because neither of us tried really hard to get back on track. The distractions didnt really help me get back on track. Also I see people say ''I trust my spouse 100 percent''- i'm sorry but that is dumb lol maybe bc I see how quickly things can unfold but one should never just blindly trust. I do trust my own husband but I know he is human. Walkingdead- so sorry, but 8 years? You let another human take 8 yrs of your life away? That is almost as bad as the infidelity itself. Quit letting him do that to you. You're better than that. Again im sorry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He didnt take that person away for 8yrs. He destroyed her. She is dead and long GONE. There is no going back after this. Will NEVER be the person I should have been allowed to be. Simply never. 

And you are correct. It is worse than the original din. But it is a true consequence. Ripples... Ripples... Ripples. Who knows how different my children might have been with their first, sane and sound mom... Nurturing, loving and playful. I tried to fake it. Still do, but I know it will never be as it should have been. Consequences. Unbelievable consequences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## walkingdead

staystrong said:


> Same thing happened to me. Music as a creative outlet ended. I tried to do something with it, even write sad songs, but it just wasn't there. I was in a very severe depression (chronic PTSD, no joke), so really nothing was possible then.
> 
> I hope it comes back to you. Your joy should not be thoroughly killed.


Thank you both so much for posting. Sad to know I'm not the only one whose love of music was killed. 

It was NOT my choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## walkingdead

karole said:


> She is still in an affair with her like third or fourth OM and the current OM is also married. She obviously doesn't have a lot of sympathy for betrayed spouses.



Thank you for your post. I suspected she's on the other (wrong) side.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## walkingdead

My apologies for getting off topic. But felt incredibly freeing to articulate the death of my former self.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

doubletrouble said:


> Typo, right, my friend?


Yes, type. Not sure why "now" is even in there. I type fast.


----------



## lookingforsupport

walkingdead said:


> Thank you both so much for posting. Sad to know I'm not the only one whose love of music was killed.
> 
> It was NOT my choice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This has been said before, but I'll say it again. The affair and behavior was his choice, your response is your choice. Anger is a feeling, not a fact. You can live your life rehearsing the anger and letting it control you, or you can work to release it and control yourself. It's up to you. It's hard, to be sure. Unfair, absolutely. But the data shows that reliving hateful and angry feelings just traps is in them.

Yes, I'm a ws in r w my bs wife. I have watched her replay and relive her hostility for a year and a half. She is making her own problems worse by dojng that. When she's angry, everything is my fault and nothing she does in response is anything other than "natural" as if she were an animal surviving on instinct alone. Choose to find the joy of being alive and move past the pain. It's a horrible thing he did, to be sure, but it's a fact. Next step is what you do with that fact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

honcho said:


> How does this post always end up debating parenting?


You'll have to ask tonedef, she is the one that brought it up.


----------



## Zanne

walkingdead said:


> Thank you both so much for posting. Sad to know I'm not the only one whose love of music was killed.
> 
> It was NOT my choice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True, it was not your choice to be cheated on. But you choose how to look at the situation which has been forced upon you. Again, I'm not trying to belittle your pain. But there may be healthier ways to deal with it. You might consider starting a thread here for support.

And Karole, I am NOT on my third or fourth OM and you know it. You are taking liberty with my story in order to trash me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

In any forum dedicated to marriage issues, there must be balance, just as in every successful marriage , there must be balance.
In recent months, TAM has dramatically shifted from being a balanced site , to being a site for male BS's. WS's who attempt to come here to seek help, are greeted with scorn and abuse, and driven away. The result is that there has developed a "lynch mob', mentality, which prevents the BS's from learning anything useful, in order to go forward with their lives and help to prevent future infidelity from occurring. 
In all of this, I am guided by my own situation. After D day, I immediately threw my wife out on the street and divorced her as soon as possible. At first, I was like a great many BS's, in that I condemned my WS for her actions. But I soon came to the realization that I needed to understand her thinking in order to heal myself. Nothing is more important to healing from infidelity (for BOTH the WS and BS) than being able to understand ......Why. How can TAM help anybody, without the participation of 50% of the participants of an adulterous marriage? How can you cure a disease, if you refuse to understand the cause?
Perhaps, if more BS's......listened... to what WS's are saying, instead of blanket condemning them, there would be less cheating and more relating.


----------



## karole

Zanne said:


> True, it was not your choice to be cheated on. But you choose how to look at the situation which has been forced upon you. Again, I'm not trying to belittle your pain. But there may be healthier ways to deal with it. You might consider starting a thread here for support.
> 
> And Karole, I am NOT on my third or fourth OM and you know it. You are taking liberty with my story in order to trash me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Zanne, I am not trying to trash you, just stating what you have posted in the past. Haven't you had 2 or 3 emotional affairs before your affair with your current OM? If I misunderstood, I apologize, but it is my recollection that is what you have posted in the past.


----------



## lookingforsupport

Rookie4 said:


> In any forum dedicated to marriage issues, there must be balance, just as in every successful marriage , there must be balance.
> In recent months, TAM has dramatically shifted from being a balanced site , to being a site for male BS's. WS's who attempt to come here to seek help, are greeted with scorn and abuse, and driven away. The result is that there has developed a "lynch mob', mentality, which prevents the BS's from learning anything useful, in order to go forward with their lives and help to prevent future infidelity from occurring.
> In all of this, I am guided by my own situation. After D day, I immediately threw my wife out on the street and divorced her as soon as possible. At first, I was like a great many BS's, in that I condemned my WS for her actions. But I soon came to the realization that I needed to understand her thinking in order to heal myself. Nothing is more important to healing from infidelity (for BOTH the WS and BS) than being able to understand ......Why. How can TAM help anybody, without the participation of 50% of the participants of an adulterous marriage? How can you cure a disease, if you refuse to understand the cause?
> Perhaps, if more BS's......listened... to what WS's are saying, instead of blanket condemning them, there would be less cheating and more relating.


Thanks for posting this. My experience here as a ws is basically confronting white hot anger 90% of the time not unlike what I get at home. WSs need to own their cheating 100% but marriage is 50/50.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

Mr Blunt said:


> In my opinion Rookie has put this thread up out of sincerity. It has been insinuated that Rookie put this thread up to get into conflict with other posters. I know a just little about Rookie and if he wanted conflict you would know it in his first few posts.


It was in his first post: "*Of course , there are also those who will attempt to berate and abuse you, but I feel that there are enough compassionate posters to , in part, shield you from the haters and abusers.*"

This thread was started after an argument ensued in another thread. He knew what he was doing when composing that first post. He may want a safe thread for WSs, and that is fine, and yes, a good idea. But that wasn't the only reason he started the thread.




> This thread is an attempt to get (WS) hurting people to post their stories in a safe environment so that we can all learn and maybe help. *If you are going to keep within Rookie’s purpose for this thread then post what would help a WS feel safe in opening up.*[/COLOR]


And we have been, with maybe the exception of one poster.

But tonedef is here, and I for one respect her.


----------



## doubletrouble

Rookie4 said:


> In any forum dedicated to marriage issues, there must be balance, just as in every successful marriage , there must be balance.
> In recent months, TAM has dramatically shifted from being a balanced site , to being a site for male BS's. WS's who attempt to come here to seek help, are greeted with scorn and abuse, and driven away. The result is that there has developed a "lynch mob', mentality, which prevents the BS's from learning anything useful, in order to go forward with their lives and help to prevent future infidelity from occurring.
> In all of this, I am guided by my own situation. After D day, I immediately threw my wife out on the street and divorced her as soon as possible. At first, I was like a great many BS's, in that I condemned my WS for her actions. But I soon came to the realization that I needed to understand her thinking in order to heal myself. Nothing is more important to healing from infidelity (for BOTH the WS and BS) than being able to understand ......Why. How can TAM help anybody, without the participation of 50% of the participants of an adulterous marriage? How can you cure a disease, if you refuse to understand the cause?
> Perhaps, if more BS's......listened... to what WS's are saying, instead of blanket condemning them, there would be less cheating and more relating.


I don't know if there would be less cheating, because it's already happened, for the most part, when people arrive here. But intelligent people who are into the whole concept of "live and learn," who want to improve themselves, could take a page from both sides. 

I learned a lot about being a BS after coming to TAM. The only reason I stay now is in hopes of helping in return, to pay it forward. 

I know if my fWW were to post here and get thrashed and insulted by total strangers on a regular basis, I'd encourage her to stop coming here. There's no percentage in it for her emotionally. It just gives bitter, and sometimes cowardly people a convenient target to shoot at, under their anonymity.


----------



## sandc

Rookie, your thread may just get locked if you let all the bickering continue. I really like what you posted above. Fair and balanced is good for everyone. If the bickering doesn't stop you should call people out by name.

Yes, I've already reported a few.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> I don't believe that any marriage forum , which is homogenous in nature, will truly be able to help increase any real understanding of the issues facing victims of infidelity, without a large and vocal WS segment. Betrayed spouses, without the insight into the WS's thinking, will continue to blame the WS for all of their problems


No, most BS's blame their WS for their decision to cheat and realize they are half responsible in the health of the marriage itself. But once cheating occurs, if reconciliation is desired, the problems in the marriage WILL take a back seat until the cheating is properly dealt with and the BS can feel comfortable then starting to improve themselves, for their own sake and the sake of the marriage.


----------



## Lovemytruck

walkingdead said:


> My apologies for getting off topic. But felt incredibly freeing to articulate the death of my former self.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see you are a new poster. It is good to tell your story. Start a thread.

There is tremendous pain involved when we read other stories or views from WSs. It is a good measuring stick for us to see how much healing we have had.

I have learned to appreciate the "why" even if it is cruel and unfair. The other things we learn are people are different in their view of core values. We all can be deceived by loved ones, and we realize they may not be worthy of the gift we freely gave.

These types of discussions are beneficial when we realize the WS posting did not do this to us. Think of it as a discussion with soldiers after a war who fought on the opposite side. The war is over.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> Perhaps, if more BS's......listened... to what WS's are saying, instead of blanket condemning them, there would be less cheating and more relating.


Once again, this statement screams, "its the BS fault for being cheated on"


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> No, most BS's blame their WS for their decision to cheat and realize they are half responsible in the health of the marriage itself. But once cheating occurs, if reconciliation is desired, the problems in the marriage WILL take a back seat until the cheating is properly dealt with and the BS can feel comfortable then starting to improve themselves, for their own sake and the sake of the marriage.


I agree, but that is , of itself , not a license to crap on WS posters. How does spewing venom at OTHER WS's help ANY BS heal ?


----------



## Rookie4

sandc said:


> Rookie, your thread may just get locked if you let all the bickering continue. I really like what you posted above. Fair and balanced is good for everyone. If the bickering doesn't stop you should call people out by name.
> 
> Yes, I've already reported a few.


I'm doing my best, but I can't do it alone. I hope that other posters will help by self regulating their posts. Edit, Edit, edit:smthumbup:


----------



## Almostrecovered

Oh Hai guize

have I missed anything?


----------



## Regret214

walkingdead said:


> [email protected] you. I didnt choose to become this person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's against the forum rules to say this to someone. Though you're in pain, you can't blast away at people here that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> Once again, this statement screams, "its the BS fault for being cheated on"


Only because you want it to. What it really means is that if there is more relating, then probably there will be LESS cheating. You are projecting your own meaning, again.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> I agree, but that is , of itself , not a license to crap on WS posters.


I also agree with this when it happens to truly remorseful WSs who understand that, although there are problem in the marriage, their decision to cheat is all on them and want to know how to reconcile.

But I simply don't understand the outcry when someone comes in here, has cheated, and gaslights their BS and feels justified in what they did. That is crapping on their BS, and yes, a slap in the face to other BSs here. One does not get to insinuate that its the BSs fault they were cheated on and expect it not to ruffle feathers.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> Only because you want it to. What it really means is that if there is more relating, then probably there will be LESS cheating. *You are projecting your own meaning, again*.


As are you.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> As are you.


I'm projecting on my own post? How is that even possible? Dude, you really need to get a grip.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> I also agree with this when it happens to truly remorseful WSs who understand that, although there are problem in the marriage, their decision to cheat is all on them and want to know how to reconcile.
> 
> But I simply don't understand the outcry when someone comes in here, has cheated, and gaslights their BS and feels justified in what they did. That is crapping on their BS, and yes, a slap in the face to other BSs here. One does not get to insinuate that its the BSs fault they were cheated on and expect it not to ruffle feathers.


This is TOTAL PROJECTION. Never, in thought, word or deed, have I ever said that it was the BS fault that the WS decided to cheat. If you say that I did.......prove it. If you can't , be man enough to admit you are wrong


----------



## Rookie4

Vellocet, I'm done bandying words with you. You are deliberately attempting to derail this thread and I would publically like to ask you to stop.


----------



## Zanne

vellocet said:


> It was in his first post: "*Of course , there are also those who will attempt to berate and abuse you, but I feel that there are enough compassionate posters to , in part, shield you from the haters and abusers.*"
> 
> This thread was started after an argument ensued in another thread. He knew what he was doing when composing that first post. He may want a safe thread for WSs, and that is fine, and yes, a good idea. But that wasn't the only reason he started the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And we have been, with maybe the exception of one poster.
> 
> But tonedef is here, and I for one respect her.


While I agree that Rookie has good intentions so far as wanting to hear the WS's side of things, this thread is just another power play.

If people learn from the posting otherwise, that's great. I tend to ignore the bickering and thinly veiled insults around here. But it may turn others away.


----------



## vellocet

Zanne said:


> While I agree that Rookie has good intentions so far as wanting to hear the WS's side of things, *this thread is just another power play*.


Exactly!! Well said.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> This is TOTAL PROJECTION. Never, in thought, word or deed, have I ever said that it was the BS fault that the WS decided to cheat. If you say that I did.......prove it.


First of all, I was talking about the general tone of most WSs, didn't say you.

However, your little "if only the BS would have listened" comment DOES blame the BS.

So I already proved it. And you do protest too much on the side of WS's, yet say you are a BS. A BS you might be, but I don't believe you are only a BS. I suspect you have been on both sides of the coin.

But hey, you are done bandying words. Therefore, so am I. I will continue to participate with others in this thread, thank you.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

EleGirl said:


> Well, an affair is a lot like napalming an ant bed.


That about sums up my experience... or carpet bombing an ant hill.


----------



## Rookie4

Zanne said:


> While I agree that Rookie has good intentions so far as wanting to hear the WS's side of things, this thread is just another power play.
> 
> If people learn from the posting otherwise, that's great. I tend to ignore the bickering and thinly veiled insults around here. But it may turn others away.


I simply cannot agree that only repentant WS's be treated with civility. Or that only repentant WS's be allowed to contribute to TAM. ALL posters should be treated the same, regardless of their position on the issue of infidelity. This isn't any "power play" Zanne, it is fundamental human interaction.


----------



## EI

vellocet said:


> No, most BS's blame their WS for their decision to cheat and realize they are half responsible in the health of the marriage itself. But once cheating occurs, if reconciliation is desired, the problems in the marriage WILL take a back seat until the cheating is properly dealt with and the BS can feel comfortable then starting to improve themselves, for their own sake and the sake of the marriage.


With all due respect, you didn't reconcile, so I'm not sure what makes you an authority on that.

I've read the whole 50-50 responsibility for the problems in the marriage comment repeatedly on TAM. I'd like to know where that statistic/fact comes from. I'm always hesitant to accept anything that begins with "They say.........." I think that that statistic is fluid and ever changing. Some days it's 60-40, others it's 90-10, 55-45, 75-25. It's constantly changing. Sometimes, the husband is the 60, while the wife is 40. If she is PMS'ing, she might be 100% responsible for every problem for the next several days. Sometimes, it's the wife who is 75, while the husband is 25. It's constantly changing. The WS is always 100% responsible for the choice to cheat, the lies, the deceptions, and every part of the infidelity. 

B1 and I dealt with the marriage problems and the infidelity hand-in-hand. Because, without doing so, there could not have been a happy and successful reconciliation for us. We chose to work, together, to help each other heal. And, we each worked on ourselves, with the full support of the other, thus enabling us to build a new, stronger, happy, and successful relationship.

I believe that it takes two completely invested partners, desiring reconciliation, in order to make a true reconciliation possible. Addressing the needs of both partners is essential. The needs of one person, even if that person is the WS, cannot indefinitely be put on hold, particularly, if that was a pre-A pattern in the marriage. 

I don't know what works for anyone else. B1 and I do know what has worked for us. We are doing well at two years and counting.


----------



## Zanne

vellocet said:


> No, most BS's blame their WS for their decision to cheat and realize they are half responsible in the health of the marriage itself. But once cheating occurs, if reconciliation is desired, the problems in the marriage WILL take a back seat until the cheating is properly dealt with and the BS can feel comfortable then starting to improve themselves, for their own sake and the sake of the marriage.


I totally agree with you on this, vellocet. You may, however, have some WS's who are still frustrated by the original marital problems (imagined or not) and they have no voice at home to air them out because it is all about the BS. Or maybe they are still coming to terms with what they did, so their thinking may be skewed.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> First of all, I was talking about the general tone of most WSs, didn't say you.
> 
> However, your little "if only the BS would have listened" comment DOES blame the BS.
> 
> So I already proved it. And you do protest too much on the side of WS's, yet say you are a BS. A BS you might be, but I don't believe you are only a BS. I suspect you have been on both sides of the coin.
> 
> But hey, you are done bandying words. Therefore, so am I. I will continue to participate with others in this thread, thank you.


You're welcome.


----------



## doubletrouble

EI said:


> I've read the whole 50-50 responsibility for the problems in the marriage comment repeatedly on TAM. I'd like to know where that statistic/fact comes from. I'm always hesitant to accept anything that begins with "They say.........." I think that that statistic is fluid and ever changing. *Some days it's 60-40, others it's 90-10, 55-45, 75-25. It's constantly changing. Sometimes, the husband is the 60, while the wife is 40. If she is PMS'ing, she might be 100% responsible for every problem for the next several days. Sometimes, it's the wife who is 75, while the husband is 25. *It's constantly changing. The WS is always 100% responsible for the choice to cheat, the lies, the deceptions, and every part of the infidelity.


C'mon, EI, everyone knows that 83% of statistics are made up on the spot.


----------



## lenzi

EI said:


> With all due respect, you didn't reconcile, so I'm not sure what makes you an authority on that.


People that have reconciled, people that have cheated, people that have been cheated on, are not "authorities" on the subject at all. They may be familiar with it, they may have a greater understanding, but it doesn't make them any more qualified than a person who has not been through it.

It's like saying a person who crashed their car is an authority on car accidents.


----------



## vellocet

EI said:


> With all due respect, you didn't reconcile, so I'm not sure what makes you an authority on that.


With all due respect, I never said I was nor claimed to be. Please show me where I even hinted at this.

And I don't have to have reconciled to be happy for and support people that are reconciling or have.




> I've read the whole 50-50 responsibility for the problems in the marriage comment repeatedly on TAM. I'd like to know where that statistic/fact comes from.


The statistics come from the opinions of the people that speak them. There are 2 people in a marriage and it takes 2 to make it work.




> I think that that statistic is fluid and ever changing. Some days it's 60-40, others it's 90-10, 55-45, 75-25. It's constantly changing. Sometimes, the husband is the 60, while the wife is 40. If she is PMS'ing, she might be 100% responsible for every problem for the next several days. Sometimes, it's the wife who is 75, while the husband is 25. It's constantly changing. The WS is always 100% responsible for the choice to cheat, the lies, the deceptions, and every part of the infidelity.


So is this what you really want to get hung up on? Who is more to blame with the problems of the marriage and exactly what the percentages are?

Ok, how much percentage do you attribute to B1?



> B1 and I dealt with the marriage problems and the infidelity hand-in-hand. Because, without doing so, there could not have been a happy and successful reconciliation for us.


I agree




> We chose to work, together, to help each other heal. And, we each worked on ourselves, with the full support of the other, thus enabling us to build a new, stronger, happy, and successful relationship.
> 
> I believe that it takes two completely invested partners, desiring reconciliation, in order to make a true reconciliation possible. Addressing the needs of both partners is essential. *The needs of one person, even if that person is the WS, cannot indefinitely be put on hold, particularly, if that was a pre-A pattern in the marriage*.


Again, I agree. And I have said time and time again that the problems in the marriage may only be adequately dealt with once the pain and the issue of the cheating is adequately dealt with. Once a BS can move on from that part, then they can work on the problems in the marriage and the needs of their WS. There is nothing indefinitely about that.


----------



## Zanne

Rookie4 said:


> I simply cannot agree that only repentant WS's be treated with civility. Or that only repentant WS's be allowed to contribute to TAM. ALL posters should be treated the same, regardless of their position on the issue of infidelity. This isn't any "power play" Zanne, it is fundamental human interaction.


Thanks, I agree with the fact that everyone is at their own point in their journey. You may change their direction. Maybe, or maybe not. But a little enlightenment and understanding never hurt anybody.

The power play remark referred to the timing of the creation of this thread. I mean no disrespect.


----------



## doubletrouble

lenzi said:


> People that have reconciled, people that have cheated, people that have been cheated on, are not "authorities" on the subject at all. They may be familiar with it, they may have a greater understanding, but it doesn't make them any more qualified than a person who has not been through it.
> 
> It's like saying a person who crashed their car is an authority on car accidents.


True enough. OTOH, I'd listen more closely to someone who has lived through a car crash than someone who's merely describing what it might be like. Just sayin...

It's my wish that none of us had the experiences we talk about on this forum. But it's good to get the POV from both sides, as I think Rookie is trying to do here.


----------



## EI

doubletrouble said:


> C'mon, EI, everyone knows that 83% of statistics are made up on the spot.



DT, your statement is only accurate 50% of the time, the other half of the time, uh, no, wait a minute......


----------



## vellocet

doubletrouble said:


> True enough. OTOH, I'd listen more closely to someone who has lived through a car crash than someone who's merely describing what it might be like. Just sayin...
> .


Only one problem with EI's statement, I never claimed to be an authority, because obviously I'm not. 

I also never claimed to know what it takes for successful reconciliation other than the obvious fact that it takes both partners to be committed to it. That's just common sense and nobody need to be an authority to state it.


----------



## lenzi

doubletrouble said:


> True enough. OTOH, I'd listen more closely to someone who has lived through a car crash than someone who's merely describing what it might be like.


Would you take driving lessons from them?


----------



## Zanne

Rookie, I'm not sure what to make of the end result of this thread. You've got one new WS and one new BS posting, so I guess that's a good outcome.

My only involvement here was to point out certain comments which were not constructive. As a WS, I'm often not "allowed" to do that on other threads, including my own, so I appreciate the support in that regard if only to raise awareness.

I hope others feel free to post here if they have not shared their story with TAM. Not everyone is okay with starting their own thread either, and that's cool.


----------



## doubletrouble

vellocet said:


> Only one problem with EI's statement, I never claimed to be an authority, because obviously I'm not.
> 
> I also never claimed to know what it takes for successful reconciliation other than the obvious fact that it takes both partners to be committed to it. That's just common sense and nobody need to be an authority to state it.





lenzi said:


> Would you take driving lessons from them?


Just making conversation, folks. My POV is no more or less valid here than anyone else's, so I put it out there.


----------



## Almostrecovered

can we all at least agree that Lenzi's eyeball is creepy?


----------



## convert

^^^

yes but that dam turtle drives me nuts too


----------



## Lovemytruck

Where is Pidge?

This has to be one of the craziest threads yet.


----------



## pidge70

Lovemytruck said:


> Where is Pidge?
> 
> This has to be one of the craziest threads yet.


Pidge is staying out of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lovemytruck

pidge70 said:


> Pidge is staying out of this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bless your heart!

Whew!


----------



## MattMatt

lenzi said:


> Would you take driving lessons from them?


Probably.


----------



## pidge70

Lovemytruck said:


> Bless your heart!
> 
> Whew!


Sarcasm? I know that's what I say when I am being condescending. Southern thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## staystrong

I'm opposed to the "50/50" split of marital problems line.

What if you're living with a conflict-avoidant person or someone with really poor boundaries? Your marriage was going along fine until the new hot coworker arrived at the company. That's like 0% the BS's fault.


----------



## Lovemytruck

pidge70 said:


> Sarcasm? I know that's what I say when I am being condescending. Southern thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not at all...

I was just thinking that this was a bit of a brawl, and you hadn't chimed in today.

For better or worse, your posts always make me think and smile.


----------



## Rookie4

Zanne said:


> Thanks, I agree with the fact that everyone is at their own point in their journey. You may change their direction. Maybe, or maybe not. But a little enlightenment and understanding never hurt anybody.
> 
> The power play remark referred to the timing of the creation of this thread. I mean no disrespect.


None taken.


----------



## tonedef

I do not know if anyone has tried pm'ing me but I dont get them on my phone- ya know, the kind where if I want a Y I gotta press the number 9 3 times lol. Anyway. My final contribution to this thread is my thoughts on the correlation of being too nice and affairs. It seems to be a common trend among bs's. I see some post that say they technically pamper their wife and in my head im saying no no no- it sets you up to be taken advantage of and kinda making the wife feel superior and the man under her. My H is sweet, romantic, but he will stand his ground when he thinks I am trying to run over him. I am not saying that pertains to everybody, just my own personal experience. I will end this with a quote ''There is love, then there is war. One ends in pain and suffering and the other one is war''.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Davelli0331

Yeah, this thread went about how I expected it would.

OP, I commend you for starting this thread, but there's far too much baggage here at TAM, both between specific members and in the TAM population at large, for it to really go any way other than how it is.

And that goes doubly true for CWI, since you're throwing in the life-altering act of infidelity.


----------



## Wolf1974

I don't see why this is really surprising to anyone. I mean if TAM had a subsection called "coping with abuse" it would be teaming with victims, current and prior, of physical and emotional abuse. Inevitably some abuser would then come along and want to talk about his stuff too. That's fine and dandy but when they make excuses for beating up their spouse they will be called on it. 

This is the coping with infidelity thread. I have been the victim of that. I have few triggers but kids being affected is still one of them as my kids hurt from my x wives choices 3 years ago and will continue too. Nothing I can do to change that. But on an open forum I will voice my opinion on it just as others do.

not everyone will agree. When someone states something another is allowed to disagree but agree we all need to be respectful. But don't for a second think that a victim of this or abuse would just be cool with everything a WS or an abuser would say or do. 

If all that is being looked for is a "safe haven" as you call it for cheaters then that needs a private thread or it's own website where you can control the information. I hear they already exist. But on a forum already set out for those cheated on it's just not going to happen.


----------



## Lovemytruck

staystrong said:


> I'm opposed to the "50/50" split of marital problems line.
> 
> What if you're living with a conflict-avoidant person or someone with really poor boundaries? Your marriage was going along fine until the new hot coworker arrived at the company. That's like 0% the BS's fault.


I tend to agree with this. I think the 50/50 thing just means that we might share in some of the marital discord. No marriage is perfect. It is easy to quantify it as 50%, but it really is not something that can be measured.

I do learn from the WS stories about their "reasons" no matter how minor, selfish, or blameshifting (made it up) they may be.

The learning does not change the past, but it gives me clues for my future. The new Mrs. Lovemytruck may feel things that I am not aware of, so I study to anticipate the issues. Her fidelity is her choice, all 100% of it. I hope I picked more wisely this time because of my troubles with the exWW.

Keeping the new Mrs. from cheating is not the only focus, it is to ensure the relationship is solid. It makes life much better when the marriage is smooth. No guarantees, but I want better odds on the second go.

I like learning about the "dark side." It helps me know where the wheels come off.


----------



## vellocet

Wolf1974 said:


> If all that is being looked for is a "safe haven" as you call it for cheaters then that needs a private thread or it's own website where you can control the information.


Which is why I suggested in another thread that possibly a sub section for WSs and another for BSs be created with the disclaimer that those particular sections are tailored towards them and that those that don't agree should leave the "other side" alone and let them have their say.


----------



## Rookie4

Well, if we have gained a couple of new posters, and have done some work to make TAM a safer place for future WS's to post, and have shown that not all posters are rage filled, passive -aggressive poopheads, then this thread is doing it's job.
I would like to thank those posters who are willing to accept different ideas and defend the right of people to speak them. This, more than anything , should show prospective WS posters, that there is a place for them , and that their participation will be encouraged and appreciated. THANK YOU, ALL!!


----------



## Davelli0331

vellocet said:


> Which is why I suggested in another thread that possibly a sub section for WSs and another for BSs be created with the disclaimer that those particular sections are tailored towards them and that those that don't agree should leave the "other side" alone and let them have their say.


I think this is a good idea but would require heavy moderation


----------



## Almostrecovered

Wolf1974 said:


> If all that is being looked for is a "safe haven" as you call it for cheaters then that needs a private thread or it's own website where you can control the information. I hear they already exist. But on a forum already set out for those cheated on it's just not going to happen.


while I respect your opinion of what you would like CWI to be , the Admins and Mods have said this mission of this place differently many times, they allow a LOT of leeway imo for the hurt betrayed posters to be quite brusque but they have said over and over again that this isn't just a BS only forum and posters need to follow rules of conduct with each other


----------



## Wolf1974

Almostrecovered said:


> while I respect your opinion of what you would like CWI to be , the Admins and Mods have said this mission of this place differently many times, they allow a LOT of leeway imo for the hurt betrayed posters to be quite brusque but they have said over and over again that this isn't just a BS only forum and posters need to follow rules of conduct with each other


If that's their decision then so be it. And the WS and BS alike can have posts and both need to realize their will be a difference of opinion present just like this one


----------



## vellocet

Davelli0331 said:


> I think this is a good idea but would require heavy moderation


Eh, probably not. I mean if people realize that isn't the place for them and if they want to vent then they have their own space to do it.

Otherwise this place will go the direction of LS.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Well, if we have gained a couple of new posters, and have done some work to make TAM a safer place for future WS's to post, and have shown that not all posters are rage filled, passive -aggressive poopheads, then this thread is doing it's job.
> I would like to thank those posters who are willing to accept different ideas and defend the right of people to speak them. This, more than anything , should show prospective WS posters, that there is a place for them , and that their participation will be encouraged and appreciated. THANK YOU, ALL!!



So are you saying that your work here is done?  Are you heading off to greener pastures, something a little less volatile, like, say....... negotiating a peace treaty at the Gaza Strip?


----------



## vellocet

"poopheads":rofl:

Ya, that helps your cause out a bunch


----------



## Almostrecovered

how do you pronounce EI anyways?

"eeee"?
"E-eye"?
"ayyy"?
"eye"
"Throat wobbler mangrove"? 


(bonus points to who gets the reference to the last one)


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> I don't see why this is really surprising to anyone. I mean if TAM had a subsection called "coping with abuse" it would be teaming with victims, current and prior, of physical and emotional abuse. Inevitably some abuser would then come along and want to talk about his stuff too. That's fine and dandy but when they make excuses for beating up their spouse they will be called on it.
> 
> This is the coping with infidelity thread. I have been the victim of that. I have few triggers but kids being affected is still one of them as my kids hurt from my x wives choices 3 years ago and will continue too. Nothing I can do to change that. But on an open forum I will voice my opinion on it just as others do.
> 
> not everyone will agree. When someone states something another is allowed to disagree but agree we all need to be respectful. But don't for a second think that a victim of this or abuse would just be cool with everything a WS or an abuser would say or do.
> 
> If all that is being looked for is a "safe haven" as you call it for cheaters then that needs a private thread or it's own website where you can control the information. I hear they already exist. But on a forum already set out for those cheated on it's just not going to happen.


 Exactly so, Wolf. this forum is called coping with infidelity. The difference is, that I happen to think that WS's have to cope with infidelity as much as the BS does. From my experience, anybody who thinks that the WS does not suffer, is full of it. I know my ex suffered and suffered seriously, from her choice to cheat. So I think this forum is big enough for BOTH WS and BS to say their say and be respectfully treated.
We do not need another sub-forum, all we need is for posters to be courteous in this one.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> "poopheads":rofl:
> 
> Ya, that helps your cause out a bunch


I'm not here to be popular, I'm here to make a point. Any and all posters who don't like my style, are perfectly free to do so, with my blessing.
Back in my racing days, it was a rare night that I didn't get into some kind of rhubarb with another driver.


----------



## Almostrecovered

that's a big rhubarb


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> how do you pronounce EI anyways?
> 
> "eeee"?
> "E-eye"?
> "ayyy"?
> "eye"
> "Throat wobbler mangrove"?
> 
> 
> (bonus points to who gets the reference to the last one)


Dinsdale?


----------



## Almostrecovered

same country


----------



## Rookie4

Oh, down the street from the Ministry of Silly Walks.


----------



## karole

Rookie4 said:


> Exactly so, Wolf. this forum is called coping with infidelity. The difference is, that I happen to think that WS's have to cope with infidelity as much as the BS does. From my experience, anybody who thinks that the WS does not suffer, is full of it. I know my ex suffered and suffered seriously, from her choice to cheat. So I think this forum is big enough for BOTH WS and BS to say their say and be respectfully treated.
> We do not need another sub-forum, all we need is for posters to be courteous in this one.


I hate to say it, but I hope they do suffer. Some obviously don't suffer enough because they tend to do it over and over again, so I suppose there are some who don't suffer or perhaps they're just immuned to the pain.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Exactly so, Wolf. this forum is called coping with infidelity. The difference is, that I happen to think that WS's have to cope with infidelity as much as the BS does. From my experience, anybody who thinks that the WS does not suffer, is full of it. I know my ex suffered and suffered seriously, from her choice to cheat. So I think this forum is big enough for BOTH WS and BS to say their say and be respectfully treated.
> We do not need another sub-forum, all we need is for posters to be courteous in this one.


And that's my point all along Rookie, I 100% disagree with this and know for a fact that not all WS suffer because my x didn't. She doesn't think their is anything wrong with what she did and has told me so. Told me she wasn't a good wife. Told me I didn't deserve it. But never I was wrong and sorry. So maybe some do suffer but my view most won't.

So we have conflicting viewpoints. You're more than allowed to state yours but I have the same right on this forum. That's just the way it will be and we can both be respectful about that


----------



## Davelli0331

Rookie4 said:


> Exactly so, Wolf. this forum is called coping with infidelity. The difference is, that I happen to think that WS's have to cope with infidelity as much as the BS does. From my experience, anybody who thinks that the WS does not suffer, is full of it. I know my ex suffered and suffered seriously, from her choice to cheat. So I think this forum is big enough for BOTH WS and BS to say their say and be respectfully treated.
> We do not need another sub-forum, all we need is for posters to be courteous in this one.


I agree that it would be valuable for WSes to have a place where they could try to understand the series of events that led to their cheating, the brokenness that led them make that choice instead of whatever other options were available, and if R is on the table, what they can do and how to protect their marriage from doing it again.

However, I disagree that it could be in this subforum. Having seen how this subforum has changed over the years, unless moderation became much stronger here as far as enforcing the rules, I don't see it happening. This thread serves as a good example why.


----------



## EI

Almostrecovered said:


> how do you pronounce EI anyways?
> 
> "eeee"?
> "E-eye"?
> "ayyy"?
> "eye"
> "Throat wobbler mangrove"?
> 
> 
> (bonus points to who gets the reference to the last one)


You know exactly how to pronounce it, AR.  You were here when I first arrived in TAMland. My original username was Empty Inside. The TAMers shortened it to "EI" on their own, so I eventually requested that the mods change it. It's pronounced "E-Eye."


----------



## Almostrecovered

I guess I was just itching to use "throat wobbler mangrove" in a sentence


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by lenzi
> People that have reconciled, people that have cheated, people that have been cheated on, are not "authorities" on the subject at all. They may be familiar with it, they may have a greater understanding, but it doesn't make them any more qualified than a person who has not been through it.
> 
> It's like saying a person who crashed their car is an authority on car accidents.


*I respectfully disagree*

I think that the person that has reconciled, cheated, and a BS are more qualified than a person that has not been through any of that.


Those that have been through it have a much deeper emotional experience and some have been driven to a deeper introspection about the experience than those that have never been through it.

A person that has reconciled knows what it takes to reconcile and is living proof not a theory, a person that cheated can know the pain to a deeper level and knows what it takes to rebuild, a person that is a BS is often prompted to become more self reliant and stronger and knows what it takes to get there. That makes them more qualified in most cases.


If I am going to reconcile then the person that has been through successful reconciliation has more authority for me than one who has not. If I am a cheater then the person that has cheated and rebuilt their life in a positive way has more authority. If I am a BS then I know that the successful BS will understand my emotions to a deeper level and knows how I can get stronger. *Others may know how to reconcile, rebuild a cheater, and get a BS stronger but they have a theory and the reconciler, WS, and the BS have real life proof!*

In infidelity the person, a reconciler, a cheater, or a BS, is looking for trust. *Because trust has been shattered a person who has actually experience the trauma and is successful is more qualified in most cases than someone that has never n been thorough any of it*. I am sure that you can find an exception but generally the ones that have been through it and are successful have more authority in some areas than the ones who have not been thorough it. The ones that I am speaking of that have not been thorugh it are mostly of the non-professional peole that you see a lot of here on TAM.


Rookie’s thread is trying to make it safe for the WS to open up. I think a few of the reasons are that we can learn from the WS and those WSs that have started rebuilding their life can be very valuable to other WSs.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Wolf1974 said:


> And that's my point all along Rookie, I 100% disagree with this and know for a fact that not all WS suffer because my x didn't. She doesn't think their is anything wrong with what she did and has told me so. Told me she wasn't a good wife. Told me I didn't deserve it. But never I was wrong and sorry. So maybe some do suffer but my view most won't.
> 
> So we have conflicting viewpoints. You're more than allowed to state yours but I have the same right on this forum. That's just the way it will be and we can both be respectful about that


So, since not ALL WS's suffer, NO WS does? And NO WS could benefit from a forum titled "Coping with Infidelity"? Well, then by that extension, not ALL BS's suffer. Some are probably glad to have a WAS and to have a reason to get out of the marriage. Therefore, YOU shouldn't need to "Cope with Infidelity" either.

Oh wait… that's an illogical connection - not ALL of anything is the same.

This forum is "Coping with Infidelity". Not "A Betrayed Spouse's Place to Cope with Infidelity". You cannot dictate what resources are available to every couple facing infidelity based on your situation and what your WS felt or didn't feel or what you feel or didn't feel.

Subforums are unnecessary and simply serve to enhance the divide between the two sides of this coin as well as reinforce stereotypical assumptions, rather than understanding. Once you start dividing - there's no end. Betrayed husbands need a forum, betrayed wives need their own forum, WW's need one, WH's need a different one, serial cheats need one, EA's need one, ONS's need one… it's stupid and redundant.

If you don't want to deal with a WS perspective, don't come into a thread for WS's. Easy. If they come into yours, ask them to leave, or hit the IGNORE button. You never have to have your viewpoint tainted by a WS's post ever again.


----------



## Wolf1974

Mrs_Mathias said:


> So, since not ALL WS's suffer, NO WS does? And NO WS could benefit from a forum titled "Coping with Infidelity"? Well, then by that extension, not ALL BS's suffer. Some are probably glad to have a WAS and to have a reason to get out of the marriage. Therefore, YOU shouldn't need to "Cope with Infidelity" either.
> 
> Oh wait… that's an illogical connection - not ALL of anything is the same.
> 
> This forum is "Coping with Infidelity". Not "A Betrayed Spouse's Place to Cope with Infidelity". You cannot dictate what resources are available to every couple facing infidelity based on your situation and what your WS felt or didn't feel or what you feel or didn't feel.
> 
> Subforums are unnecessary and simply serve to enhance the divide between the two sides of this coin as well as reinforce stereotypical assumptions, rather than understanding. Once you start dividing - there's no end. Betrayed husbands need a forum, betrayed wives need their own forum, WW's need one, WH's need a different one, serial cheats need one, EA's need one, ONS's need one… it's stupid and redundant.
> 
> If you don't want to deal with a WS perspective, don't come into a thread for WS's. Easy. If they come into yours, ask them to leave, or hit the IGNORE button. You never have to have your viewpoint tainted by a WS's post ever again.


Wow talk about projecting

Sorry if your struggling with my post but that's NOT what I said. I don't deal in absolutes. I said in my post that some do suffer so nice try. I also said that we need to be respectful of difference of opinions something you seem in able of doing so I will just throw the same nonsense back at you. If you don't like my post have at the ignore button and you never have to read my posts again. But I have just as much right to post on a forum as you do so thanks


----------



## Pluto2

The last few posts are AGAIN, part of the problem here on TAM.

Someone says WS suffer and a BS says, but not in my case because ......., then the BS gets berated because another WS disagrees.

As much as WS don't like to get bashed by BS, it has to go both ways and it never does.

My WS didn't and isn't suffering from his infidelity or his abuse. Still, I"m here because I think I could learn to establish better boundaries for myself. When either side makes an overly broad generalization they should get called out for it.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Rookie4 said:


> Exactly so, Wolf. this forum is called coping with infidelity. The difference is, that I happen to think that WS's have to cope with infidelity as much as the BS does. From my experience, anybody who thinks that the WS does not suffer, is full of it. I know my ex suffered and suffered seriously, from her choice to cheat. So I think this forum is big enough for BOTH WS and BS to say their say and be respectfully treated.
> We do not need another sub-forum, all we need is for posters to be courteous in this one.





Wolf1974 said:


> And that's my point all along Rookie, I 100% disagree with this and know for a fact that not all WS suffer because my x didn't. She doesn't think their is anything wrong with what she did and has told me so. Told me she wasn't a good wife. Told me I didn't deserve it. But never I was wrong and sorry. So maybe some do suffer but my view most won't.
> 
> So we have conflicting viewpoints. You're more than allowed to state yours but I have the same right on this forum. That's just the way it will be and we can both be respectful about that


Perhaps, Wolf, I have interpreted your statement incorrectly - but based on what you were replying to, I see you stating that you 100% disagree that this forum is big enough for both BS and WS to be treated respectfully and that we don't need another sub forum. Which you then support by saying your ex was never sorry and most WS aren't. 

Am I missing something here?


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> I'm not here to be popular, *I'm here to make a point.*


That's what I've been hinting at all along. Thanks 

And for all your talk about civility, well....


----------



## BetrayedDad

My WS only suffers because her security blanket (Me) is gone and now she struggles financially to make ends meet. I doubt she loses any sleep over acting like a harlot.

You have to accept the fact that if someone is selfish enough to cheat to begin with then more likely then not they will only be sorry they got caught.

Not in every case but definitely in the majority. Having a conscious don't just come and go on a whim. You either have one or your don't.


----------



## Wolf1974

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Perhaps, Wolf, I have interpreted your statement incorrectly - but based on what you were replying to, I see you stating that you 100% disagree that this forum is big enough for both BS and WS to be treated respectfully and that we don't need another sub forum. Which you then support by saying your ex was never sorry and most WS aren't.
> 
> Am I missing something here?


Apparently so cause that's not what I said.


I said I disagree that all WS suffer along with BS. SOME do yes but most do not and certainly not on an even field.

I don't now nor have I ever stated that that WS don't belong here. What I have stated is that it is a public forum and if they are going to post something that others disagree with then they are likely going to hear about it. And that should be done in a respectful manner on both sides.


----------



## vellocet

BetrayedDad said:


> My WS only suffers because her security blanket (Me) is gone and now she struggles financially to make ends meet. I doubt she loses any sleep over acting like a harlot.


To be fair, there must have been something you did to cause her to cheat. If you had listened to her instead, perhaps you wouldn't have been cheated on.


----------



## BetrayedDad

vellocet said:


> To be fair, there must have been something you did to cause her to cheat. If you had listened to her instead, perhaps you wouldn't have been cheated on.


I think it was because she had to ask me to vacuum the rug on occasion. She didn't like asking me apparently. I was just supposed to read her mind and do it. Completely my fault.


----------



## Wolf1974

Pluto2 said:


> The last few posts are AGAIN, part of the problem here on TAM.
> 
> Someone says WS suffer and a BS says, but not in my case because ......., then the BS gets berated because another WS disagrees.
> 
> As much as WS don't like to get bashed by BS, it has to go both ways and it never does.
> 
> My WS didn't and isn't suffering from his infidelity or his abuse. Still, I"m here because I think I could learn to establish better boundaries for myself. When either side makes an overly broad generalization they should get called out for it.


Would agree. Seems that the most vocal about wanting respect here are the first ones to tout name calling and make belligerent statements.


----------



## doubletrouble

Some folks do get sideways form their original frames of reference, their internal moral and mental structure. We talk about MLCs, and these are very real. Some have them to a greater extreme than others. Some don't even know they're having them. My ex told me when I bought a Cadillac I was having an MLC. I told her at least I didn't buy a gold chain... 

But as I reflect on that now, I still don't think I was having an MLC. I just didn't ask her if I could/should by a nice car. I was making all the money for the house, and I wanted it, and could afford it. 

All about perception.


----------



## doubletrouble

Wolf1974 said:


> Would agree. Seems that the most vocal about wanting respect here are the first ones to tout name calling and make belligerent statements.


*shrug* Seems a shared attribute all 'round, from my chair. Just depends on the thread, and who's gathered together in it. 

BS may feel they have a higher moral ground, and as one, I know I've felt that. But that doesn't make be a superior person over anyone else on this planet. It sure gives me a different point of view than someone who is here for other reasons, however. 

I don't lord my fWW's cheating over her like I'm better than her. I don't use it as a trump card to win arguments. 

I have boundaries, so does she. They're crystal clear now, if for whatever reason they weren't in the past. But my boundaries aren't based on me being the greater person because I didn't screw around. They're based, in this reconciling relationship, on both of us pulling towards a common goal. 

And TAM's intent, I believe, is the same. Pulling towards a common goal for all of us who have been, in one way or another, influenced by infidelity.


----------



## Regret214

Well, there ya go. Seems most of the betrayeds who divorced say their wayward didn't suffer. That would appear to be their prime motivator here at TAM. Most advise another betrayed to divorce, too because that "helped" them. Interesting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

I guess having multiple orgasms must be real torture for a WS. I understand now.


----------



## vellocet

Regret214 said:


> Most advise another betrayed to divorce, too because that "helped" them. Interesting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Whats so interesting about it? Its an opinion, much like there are opinions that said BS should give it a shot at reconciliation. There are several ways to go. Some will say to give their WS a 2nd chance, some will so to not.

Neither view is right or wrong. Ultimately its choice of the BS asking the questions which bit of advice is right for them.

Yes, it is my view that a BS can better their situation by getting rid of the person causing so much pain. May not be the right option for the poster in question, just another option to think about. That's what people do here, give advice based on their own experiences, no matter which side of the aisle you find yourself on.


----------



## vellocet

BetrayedDad said:


> I guess having multiple orgasms must be real torture for a WS. I understand now.


Easy brother. I want to see you stick around.


----------



## Paladin

BetrayedDad said:


> I guess having multiple orgasms must be real torture for a WS. I understand now.


How does this relate to the conversation? Did something get deleted?


----------



## vellocet

He's commenting on the idea of whether or not WSs "suffer"


----------



## lenzi

BetrayedDad said:


> I guess having multiple orgasms must be real torture for a WS. I understand now.


Why would a wayward spouse only have multiple orgasms with their affair partner?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Wolf, then I apologize, because I did interpret your statement wrong.


----------



## Zanne

Wolf1974 said:


> Apparently so cause that's not what I said.
> 
> 
> I said I disagree that all WS suffer along with BS. SOME do yes but most do not and certainly not on an even field.
> 
> *I don't now nor have I ever stated that that WS don't belong here. What I have stated is that it is a public forum and if they are going to post something that others disagree with then they are likely going to hear about it. And that should be done in a respectful manner on both sides.*


Well, I thought that I was done on this thread, but I would like to speak to the topic of suffering. 

You are correct that not all WS's suffer, at least not on the level of the ones who they betrayed. IDK, it can be subjective, I guess.

I will say that I am not suffering in the same way as my husband, who by his own account, "Never saw it coming." I think it is different for those WS's who R. I'm actually bothered that I don't care more.

I'm okay with not being liked or respected on this site, because I understand that's just the way it is. Obviously I still find it worth my time to occasionally post, ask questions, and learn from others here. If the mindset on this thread existed for the rest of the forum, I think that's a good start.

I don't mind saying that too much emphasis on WS's isn't helpful either. I don't think it aligns with TAM's mission statement or whatever. Peace out


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> Well, there ya go. Seems most of the betrayeds who divorced say their wayward didn't suffer. That would appear to be their prime motivator here at TAM. Most advise another betrayed to divorce, too because that "helped" them. Interesting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OR

Could It be that we are sharing our own experiences of what worked for us as a perspective so the BS can make their own decision. I couldn't stay with my x wife. Those who do stay and successfully reconcile amaze me. I don't think they are wrong for staying was definitely wrong in my situation but circumstances are different. 

Maybe you should try looking at the other perspective.


----------



## Pluto2

Regret214 said:


> Well, there ya go. Seems most of the betrayeds who divorced say their wayward didn't suffer. That would appear to be their prime motivator here at TAM. Most advise another betrayed to divorce, too because that "helped" them. Interesting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wait, there are, what -three BS here who state that from their experience they do not believe their WS suffered as a result of their infidelity. That's hardly a scientific survey, and not enough to assign a prime motivating factor for TAM participation.


----------



## Zanne

karole said:


> You can't feel guilt if you don't have a conscience.


Wow, Karole, I'm really feeling the love from you today.


----------



## vellocet

Zanne said:


> Wow, Karole, I'm really feeling the love from you today.


Maybe I didn't get it, and wondering if he removed the post himself, but the way I took it is that you DO have a conscious, because I believe you do feel guilty, or at least bad about how your marriage went down. Unless karole doesn't think you feel guilty.


----------



## BetrayedDad

lenzi said:


> Why would a wayward spouse only have multiple orgasms with their affair partner?


It was a sarcastic remark but I will answer anyway. How many times have we read of BS's getting cut off from sex because the WS wants to stay loyal to the AP? Or even if they do get sex it's "hurry up and finish" one a month duty sex. 

In any event, my issue is it's hard for me to garner any sympathy for an individual who sticks a fork in their own leg then complains they are in pain and suffering. I'm sure you are, but MAYBE you shouldn't of stabbed yourself and your BS to begin with. 

And some WS don't suffer at all (eg WS's who pull off successful exit affairs). I'm not sure why this is so controversial. Maybe some of the one's who R suffer but even then how many of those are just sorry they got caught and are just sad the illicit fun is over?


----------



## Regret214

Pluto2 said:


> Wait, there are, what -three BS here who state that from their experience they do not believe their WS suffered as a result of their infidelity. That's hardly a scientific survey, and not enough to assign a prime motivating factor for TAM participation.



And an excellent point to ponder from the wayward side as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## karole

vellocet said:


> Maybe I didn't get it, and wondering if he removed the post himself, but the way I took it is that you DO have a conscious, because I believe you do feel guilty, or at least bad about how your marriage went down. Unless karole doesn't think you feel guilty.


No, I do not think she feels at all guilty for her affair or the breaking up of the OM's marriage. I asked her once how she could sleep at night knowing what she was doing if not to her own family, but to her OM's family, all the while claiming to be a Christian and she told me she "does a lot of yoga." Does that sound like someone who is guilty to you?


----------



## Zanne

vellocet said:


> Maybe I didn't get it, and wondering if he removed the post himself, but the way I took it is that you DO have a conscious, because I believe you do feel guilty, or at least bad about how your marriage went down. Unless karole doesn't think you feel guilty.


No, she (this Karole is female) definitely thinks I don't feel guilty enough. Her mother betrayed their family so she has always taken issue with my situation. She can be a compassionate person. She just does NOT approve of me.


----------



## doubletrouble

vellocet said:


> Maybe I didn't get it, and wondering if he removed the post himself, but the way I took it is that you DO have a conscious, because I believe you do feel guilty, or at least bad about how your marriage went down. Unless karole doesn't think you feel guilty.


karole's a guy? Hm. 

Either way, I'm not sure how any of us can get deep inside another person's mind and know how they truly feel. 

I was at a meeting one time and the pres of the company asked if anyone there would like to trade their bag of troubles for his bag of troubles. Nobody volunteered. Thing is, we all have things in our life's bag that, were we to reveal them on TAM or some other public forum, somehow someone would find a way to villify us for it. 

I'm not talking BS and WS here, but human experience. Ever done something you regretted, or were ashamed of? I sure have. Each of us has such a small, tiny slice of experience in us compared to the big picture. We share our slices here, but in no case should we assume you or I are better than he or she.


----------



## Zanne

And there you go. She answered you herself.

Karole, I don't recall the yoga comment, but I will admit to being snarky at times and not on my best behavior.

I also don't feel like I am breaking up someone else's marriage because they would be divorcing anyway. The affair is separate. I do feel bad that she is being betrayed and doesn't know it, but maybe that's for the best.


----------



## Wolf1974

karole said:


> No, I do not think she feels at all guilty for her affair or the breaking up of the OM's marriage. I asked her once how she could sleep at night knowing what she was doing if not to her own family, but to her OM's family, all the while claiming to be a Christian and she told me she "does a lot of yoga." Does that sound like someone who is guilty to you?


Well if that's true I guess I can see your point


----------



## vellocet

karole said:


> No, I do not think she feels at all guilty for her affair or the breaking up of the OM's marriage. I asked her once how she could sleep at night knowing what she was doing if not to her own family, but to her OM's family, all the while claiming to be a Christian and she told me she "does a lot of yoga." Does that sound like someone who is guilty to you?


Oh, I don't know. Maybe I didn't read the same stuff as you did.

All I know from her one thread about trying to get her X to agree to a particular amount for his childs support. I wasn't getting a great vibe from Zanne, but as the thread progressed, I think she didn't want to treat him unfairly with regards to support because afterall, she cheated and didn't feel like she wanted to add insult to injury. So at least from that thread I felt that she feels guilty.

But what do I know, I'm just one of the poopheads


----------



## cpacan

I would like to pose a question related to the opening post. Let's say that Rookie succeed his mission of getting more WS to post. IF all these WS were coming, in all shapes and forms, from those seeking advice and support in saving their marriage to those teaching loayal spouses that they all had it coming (if they had only listened, they wouldn't have been cheated on) mixed with hardcore serial cheaters. 

Does anyone actually believe that they would listen, take note and accept responsibility, if all BS postsers (those who were left) delt them virtual hugs and told them, in a calm and quiet manner, to try and find some empathy for their BS (= no 2x4 or calling bulls... on statements)?

I'm really curious and hope that those who believe it would work, will explain exactly why you think that would be the case. I believe this would be the best way to support Rookies, I think, original intend.


----------



## Davelli0331

Would that be any different than BSes that don't listen to what we tell them, no matter what approach we take (tough love vs virtual hugs)?


----------



## BetrayedDad

Zanne said:


> I also don't feel like I am breaking up someone else's marriage because they would be divorcing anyway.


Wow.



Zanne said:


> The affair is separate.


Wow...



Zanne said:


> I do feel bad that she is being betrayed and doesn't know it, but maybe that's for the best.


Wow.....


Apparently not bad enough. Those are some pretty messed up comments.


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Davelli0331 said:


> Would that be any different than BSes that don't listen to what we tell them, no matter what approach we take (tough love vs virtual hugs)?


No, i just don't believe that was the intended discussion.


----------



## vellocet

doubletrouble said:


> karole's a guy? Hm.


Oh, I wasn't sure. I just type out as if karole was a "he" because you know how us men are with cheating women


----------



## sidney2718

Originally Posted by staystrong 


> In her defense.. in the 'defense' of all cheaters.. she wasn't expecting these feelings. They surged into her, she felt alive again. It's overwhelming. You should consider that it didn't make sense to her either. It was uninvited, and she slipped into it because she probably though she could manage a 'friendship' with someone she also felt attracted to. Most people who cheat aren't bad people, it's just the nature of human beings to be attracted to each other. It's probably the case that her OM isn't a scoundrel, he also felt compelled to see this woman again. After the first kiss, she may have even felt "I can't do this" along with "That felt sooo good". Most people are not good at cutting themself off from pleasure, even if it is guilty pleasure.





Pluto2 said:


> So, cheaters are addicts with no self control.
> I do not accept that premise.


Staystrong didn't say "cheaters are addicts with no self control." You did.


----------



## Zanne

vellocet said:


> Oh, I wasn't sure. I just type out as if karole was a "he" because you know how us men are with cheating women


To clarify, Karole is not a cheater; her mother was. 

Anyway, I see that I am challenging the mission for this thread so I am going to take a break from posting here unless anyone has a specific question for me. I don't pretend that what I'm doing is okay and on some level I have no choice but to legitimize the relationship, although I do love and care for him very much. If I believed in soul mates, he would be mine.


----------



## Wolf1974

Just out of curiosity. And not an attack I really do want to know your thinking on this. If this married man is your soulmate then why is he married to another?


----------



## vellocet

Zanne said:


> To clarify, Karole is not a cheater; her mother was.


No, I know. I was assuming karole was a guy because we've been told us guys are more vocal about cheating when women do it.


----------



## vellocet

Wolf1974 said:


> Just out of curiosity. And not an attack I really do want to know your thinking on this. If this married man is your soulmate then why is he married to another?


And if you don't feel like you are breaking up the marriage because it was going to end anyway, then the question I have.....is it ending? Or MM just saying it will someday?


----------



## sidney2718

Affaircare said:


> Well the last several pages are why I don't generally encourage WS's to post or participate much in these kinds of threads.
> 
> BUT I will say this. I have seen Disloyal Spouses come on here in the heat of their affair or as the emotional affair is building, and what they post is not rooted in reality, but it is what they honestly think/feel "at the moment." As a Disloyal posts what they honestly actually think, it can be fairly offensive to a BS if you don't read it with a grain of salt realizing it is not real reality but rather justifying their affair.
> 
> It's been my experience that rather than debating "this or that did or did not happen"--I point out where their thinking diverts from logic. And unlike many of the voices in their lives telling them "you deserve better" or "do what makes you happy" I am the voice that encourages them to do the right thing: tell the truth; keep your promises; fix your family; rebuild love by putting as much effort into your SPOUSE as you do into the affair partner. They need a voice like that to combat the toxic friends.
> 
> BUT the truth is that when a Wayward/Disloyal comes here, their head is a bit messed up. Not that they're nuts or anything but they've drunk the koolaide of "your kids will be fine" and "you are worth it" and "love is romantic" and "love is a feeling" and "your true love will meet all your needs"...all those kinds of messages that are blatantly false and permeating our society.
> 
> So this is just me, but I wish Waywards could come here, speak what they truly think and feel even though we know it's pretty skewed, and then be shown where the error is and what the truth is. Some might learn to do better. Some may not, but at least they weren't attacked.
> 
> I am not sure that is possible because people are awfully triggery here--but I can dream, right?
> 
> By the way, I want to personally call out one person: *Vellocet*. And not for the usual reasons! I believe Vellocet and I disagree on some things regarding Betrayed and Wayward spouses--after all, we are on opposite ends of the spectrum. For example, if a WS discusses "why" the affair occurred, I think that giving a reason is discussing the state of the marriage prior to the affair and is instrumental in discovering weaknesses and boundaries that the WS would need to work on; for personal responsibility reasons, not for "blaming the BS" reasons. I think Vellocet may believe something closer to "Any reason given is blameshifting--the only response is that there is no reasonable reason." BUT we aren't entirely on opposite ends because I was once betrayed also and can empathize with that view, and he was gracious enough to take time to hear what I was saying and at least understand it--even though he disagreed.
> 
> So I'm calling him out because even though we do disagree, we have the pleasure of behaving in a way that is 'not the same' but respectful of each other. I wanted to mention out loud how much I appreciate that, and encourage *everyone *to behave like that.


I want to say that this post makes a great deal of sense. It even touches on a delicate issue that often comes up on TAM. Betrayed spouses often ask WHY? They want to understand the dynamic. Yet when a WS tries to describe what happened, even if still in a fog, they can be told that they are lying, being unreasonable, and that their "excuse" (usually not a word used by WS's) makes no sense.

Of course the explanations make no sense. Most of the time an affair is an emotional response, not a carefully calibrated logical set of acts. But it is important to understand the WHY part of it because knowing the things that trigger infidelity can allow a spouse to head off a possible affair.

And one more problem. I can't just write that last paragraph. I have to post a disclaimer or two. I am NOT condoning affairs and I am NOT blaming the BS for the affair.


----------



## Zanne

Wolf1974 said:


> Just out of curiosity. And not an attack I really do want to know your thinking on this. If this married man is your soulmate then why is he married to another?





vellocet said:


> And if you don't feel like you are breaking up the marriage because it was going to end anyway, then the question I have.....is it ending? Or MM just saying it will someday?


We are BOTH still married to other people. Why? Because it is not so easy to end long term marriages (25 years for both of us) and kids are involved. Finances too. Yes, both marriages are ending. Nobody has filed for divorce yet. Very difficult time.


----------



## sidney2718

Rookie4 said:


> Wolf, I really do apologize. I meant that post to refer to the post previous to yours, but scrolled down one post too many. My GF brought me some fresh , warm chocolate chip cookies and I lost my place. My Bad, entirely.


And you didn't share. BAD BAD Rookie!


----------



## Wolf1974

So then does your husband know you are with this other married man and is ok with that? Is he with someone new too?


----------



## sidney2718

Zanne said:


> Thanks, EI. I appreciate your support!
> 
> And I agree, it may be impossible to have ongoing discussions between BS's and WS's on this forum without chaos erupting. I'm surprised this thread is still alive.
> 
> Also, like you, some of my unpleasant experiences here have been the most educational.
> 
> This forum is largely male BS's and maybe that dynamic should be left alone, with moderation of course. I don't have a need to stir things up here. It is what it is.


I don't think it should be left alone. I think we need the viewpoint of female BS too. They do post in other forums on this site. And my non-scientific impression is that as a group they (the women) are more forgiving than their male equivalents.

We also need the viewpoints of WS's, male and female so that we can get a grip on why affairs happen. Sure, there are a thousand reasons but "the devil made me do it" isn't one of them.


----------



## Healer

tonedef said:


> Only thing I do not get is how waywards are bad parents?


Are you honestly, seriously saying you don't see that infidelity/divorce has a negative effect on children? It's DEVASTATING to children. And this devastation is caused by the WS's willful acts of selfishness and cruelty towards their _entire_ nuclear family. Ergo - bad parent. But I think you do know that - you just don't want to face that cold, hard reality.


----------



## sidney2718

karole said:


> Zanne, I am not trying to trash you, just stating what you have posted in the past. Haven't you had 2 or 3 emotional affairs before your affair with your current OM? If I misunderstood, I apologize, but it is my recollection that is what you have posted in the past.


All this may be true, but Zanne is as qualified as anyone else to voice her opinions. The current (or past) state of her love life has nothing to do with anything as far as advice is concerned.


----------



## Regret214

And here we go again with the parent thing...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> I also agree with this when it happens to truly remorseful WSs who understand that, although there are problem in the marriage, their decision to cheat is all on them and want to know how to reconcile.
> 
> But I simply don't understand the outcry when someone comes in here, has cheated, and gaslights their BS and feels justified in what they did. That is crapping on their BS, and yes, a slap in the face to other BSs here. One does not get to insinuate that its the BSs fault they were cheated on and expect it not to ruffle feathers.


As far as I know, nobody has done that on this thread. But I will say that it might be interesting to know why the WS feels that way. You can only fight a disease by understanding it.


----------



## sidney2718

lenzi said:


> People that have reconciled, people that have cheated, people that have been cheated on, are not "authorities" on the subject at all. They may be familiar with it, they may have a greater understanding, but it doesn't make them any more qualified than a person who has not been through it.
> 
> It's like saying a person who crashed their car is an authority on car accidents.


Well, I disagree with this. Most traffic engineers dealing with the prevention of or moderating auto crashes have never had one either.

Besides, this is a thread of opinions. Everybody is entitled to one, if not more.


----------



## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> Again, I agree. And I have said time and time again that* the problems in the marriage may only be adequately dealt with once the pain and the issue of the cheating is adequately dealt with*. Once a BS can move on from that part, then they can work on the problems in the marriage and the needs of their WS. There is nothing indefinitely about that.


Again, the poster did not say what you say they said. What you said is bolded above.

EI said:

Quote: EI wrote:


> B1 and I dealt with the marriage problems and the infidelity hand-in-hand. Because, without doing so, there could not have been a happy and successful reconciliation for us.


which says that they dealt with the marriage problems and the infidelity problems hand-in-hand, which is not at all what you said.


----------



## MattMatt

Regret214 said:


> And here we go again with the parent thing...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I must admit I do mention children in affairs. I knew two families where the parents cheated (in one case the husband, in the other case the wife) in both cases the people who really suffered were the children.


----------



## sidney2718

Zanne said:


> The power play remark referred to the timing of the creation of this thread. I mean no disrespect.


It isn't a power play if what was done does not give the OP more power.


----------



## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> I also never claimed to know what it takes for successful reconciliation other than the obvious fact that it takes both partners to be committed to it. That's just common sense and nobody need to be an authority to state it.


If you don't know what it takes for successful reconciliation, then what does this quote from a recent post of yours mean?



> And I have said time and time again that the problems in the marriage may only be adequately dealt with once the pain and the issue of the cheating is adequately dealt with.


----------



## sidney2718

staystrong said:


> I'm opposed to the "50/50" split of marital problems line.
> 
> What if you're living with a conflict-avoidant person or someone with really poor boundaries? Your marriage was going along fine until the new hot coworker arrived at the company. That's like 0% the BS's fault.


But it is good for a conflict-avoidant person with poor boundaries to know one possible result of those traits.


----------



## Regret214

MattMatt said:


> I must admit I do mention children in affairs. I knew two families where the parents cheated (in one case the husband, in the other case the wife) in both cases the people who really suffered were the children.


I totally understand. I, too know two families that dealt with infidelity: mine and the xOM. My children are doing absolutely well. No issues because they were never told about the affair. The xOM is another story because his wife left him with 90% custody of the children. They're obviously very distraught over the outcome because they were told of the affair. And they're quite a bit younger than our children.

Truth of the matter is ANY children of divorce suffer regardless of the circumstance surrounding their divorce. People don't divorce just due to affairs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

Lovemytruck said:


> I tend to agree with this. I think the 50/50 thing just means that we might share in some of the marital discord. No marriage is perfect. It is easy to quantify it as 50%, but it really is not something that can be measured.
> 
> I do learn from the WS stories about their "reasons" no matter how minor, selfish, or blameshifting (made it up) they may be.
> 
> The learning does not change the past, but it gives me clues for my future. The new Mrs. Lovemytruck may feel things that I am not aware of, so I study to anticipate the issues. Her fidelity is her choice, all 100% of it. I hope I picked more wisely this time because of my troubles with the exWW.
> 
> Keeping the new Mrs. from cheating is not the only focus, it is to ensure the relationship is solid. It makes life much better when the marriage is smooth. No guarantees, but I want better odds on the second go.
> 
> I like learning about the "dark side." It helps me know where the wheels come off.


Excellent post. I'd suggest one more thing. You might discuss with your wife things she could do to keep YOU from cheating.


----------



## sidney2718

Healer said:


> Are you honestly, seriously saying you don't see that infidelity/divorce has a negative effect on children? It's DEVASTATING to children. And this devastation is caused by the WS's willful acts of selfishness and cruelty towards their _entire_ nuclear family. Ergo - bad parent. But I think you do know that - you just don't want to face that cold, hard reality.


Except that it is not reality. It is also very bad for children to grow up in a home where the parents do not love each other.


----------



## Zanne

Wolf1974 said:


> So then does your husband know you are with this other married man and is ok with that? Is he with someone new too?


No, unlike Tonedef's situation, I don't have the guts to tell him. However, I do not give him any reason to believe that I want to stay in the marriage. He knows I'm here for the kids at this point. We have slept apart for over a year now.

He is asking me to hurry up and move out because he wants to move on (says it's hard when I'm still around) and he wants to date, which he says he can't do if his wife still lives with him. I totally understand and told him I am working on it.

He suspects that I am still in contact with OM and recently went as far to say that he wants me to be honest with him when I disappear for weekends with "friends," but I just don't think that he can handle it. I wish that we could all be honest with each other and I hate the lies and deception.


----------



## Zanne

sidney2718 said:


> I don't think it should be left alone. I think we need the viewpoint of female BS too. They do post in other forums on this site. And my non-scientific impression is that as a group they (the women) are more forgiving than their male equivalents.
> 
> We also need the viewpoints of WS's, male and female so that we can get a grip on why affairs happen. Sure, there are a thousand reasons but "the devil made me do it" isn't one of them.


But I wonder if the largely male population in CWI likes it the way it is? You know, sort of man cave-ish. Maybe it's comfortable for them this way and a bunch of WS's posting will only serve to trigger folks. There's a time and place, I believe. I do like the idea of Rookie's thread though.


----------



## just got it 55

Zanne said:


> And there you go. She answered you herself.
> 
> Karole, I don't recall the yoga comment, but I will admit to being snarky at times and not on my best behavior.
> 
> *I also don't feel like I am breaking up someone else's marriage because they would be divorcing anyway. The affair is separate. I do feel bad that she is being betrayed and doesn't know it, but maybe that's for the best*.


Zanne Have your learned nothing here?:scratchhead:

55


----------



## Zanne

just got it 55 said:


> Zanne Have your learned nothing here?:scratchhead:
> 
> 55


I've learned a lot actually. But I had to make my own mistakes to learn from it, I guess. I'm sorry.


----------



## Zanne

Be honest, if you knew your marriage was over, do you really want to know that your spouse has found somebody else already?


----------



## Wolf1974

So wait you had an affair and that's why your husband wants out? If no one is filing for divorce than this isn't even and exit affair, not that those are any better, this is just a straight up affair


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> I totally understand. I, too know two families that dealt with infidelity: mine and the xOM. My children are doing absolutely well. No issues because they were never told about the affair. The xOM is another story because his wife left him with 90% custody of the children. They're obviously very distraught over the outcome because they were told of the affair. And they're quite a bit younger than our children.
> 
> Truth of the matter is ANY children of divorce suffer regardless of the circumstance surrounding their divorce. People don't divorce just due to affairs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No but when an affair causes a divorce then the affair was the cause of the pain. You have to recognize both sides. The only other stigma that comes along in addition to the divorce then is the moral judgment the children then have to consider on the parent who cheated. For some it won't matter and others it will be a big deal when they find out


----------



## Zanne

Wolf1974 said:


> So wait you had an affair and that's why your husband wants out? If no one is filing for divorce than this isn't even and exit affair, not that those are any better, this is just a straight up affair


My husband never wanted out. He's waiting for me to file. He does understand that it's over though. He just can't be the one to file. He acknowledges 22 years of bad behavior but thinks the last few years should make up for it. And of course the affair is totally on me.


----------



## Wolf1974

Well I don't agree with what your doing but least you are being honest, on here, about it. I do think that you should be telling your husband the truth about this affair. Suspecting and knowing are two different things and wouldn't you want to know the truth. If this was your kiddo in this situation wouldn't you want them to know as well?


----------



## honcho

Zanne said:


> Be honest, if you knew your marriage was over, do you really want to know that your spouse has found somebody else already?


Yes we do have this illusion that we are entitled to the truth for good or bad.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Zanne said:


> Be honest, if you knew your marriage was over, do you really want to know that your spouse has found somebody else already?


I would want to know. Imagine friends mutual to the husband and wife talking about this new person. the betrayed spouse would want to know who is porking their (estranged) spouse (and probably running the household finances dry.)

ETA: and who is also spending time around and influencing their children........ how's that for wanting to be a good parent! You don't want kids hanging around strange adults you've never met.


----------



## Regret214

Wolf1974 said:


> No but when an affair causes a divorce then the affair was the cause of the pain. You have to recognize both sides. The only other stigma that comes along in addition to the divorce then is the moral judgment the children then have to consider on the parent who cheated. For some it won't matter and others it will be a big deal when they find out


And what of divorces due to addiction, finances or abuse? People file for priority changes or too high of expectations. Divorce hurts. Period. No real qualifier is needed IMO. Children suffer from divorces every day where infidelity never played a role.

I'm playing devil's advocate, by the way. Dig grew up in a broken home. I did not. My parents just celebrated 50 years of marriage last year. How difficult do you think it was for me to admit my failure to them? They're seemingly just as happy Dig is giving me another chance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Zanne said:


> No, unlike Tonedef's situation, I don't have the guts to tell him. However, I do not give him any reason to believe that I want to stay in the marriage. He knows I'm here for the kids at this point. We have slept apart for over a year now.
> 
> He is asking me to hurry up and move out because he wants to move on (says it's hard when I'm still around) and he wants to date, which he says he can't do if his wife still lives with him. I totally understand and told him I am working on it.
> 
> He suspects that I am still in contact with OM and recently went as far to say that he wants me to be honest with him when I disappear for weekends with "friends," but I just don't think that he can handle it. I wish that we could all be honest with each other and I hate the lies and deception.


Zanne, there is a problem with honesty in your relationship.

You say you hate the lies and deception, but those appear to be your tools for dealing with your marriage.

It may be stretching the analogy a tad, but it's a *little* bit like a burglar saying: "You know, I really hate these skeleton keys and this jemmy, but..."


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> And what of divorces due to addiction, finances or abuse? People file for priority changes or too high of expectations. Divorce hurts. Period. No real qualifier is needed IMO. Children suffer from divorces every day where infidelity never played a role.
> 
> I'm playing devil's advocate, by the way. Dig grew up in a broken home. I did not. My parents just celebrated 50 years of marriage last year. How difficult do you think it was for me to admit my failure to them? They're seemingly just as happy Dig is giving me another chance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry one doesn't excuse the other. Their are plenty of reasons that people divorce. Some are needed, in the case of abuse for example. But we are dealing with affairs and their effects and causes of divorce. And again I think affairs and abuse do have an extra stigma attached to them that one day the children will have to rationalize and deal with.......unless I guess both parents reconcile and never ever tell them. But when the result becomes divorce they will find out eventually.

I also had an intact family home. Parents just passed 47 years married if my math is right. I also had to admit my failures to them of my marriage and was not easy to do. This hurt them as well. My father not so much but my mother regarded my x wife as the daughter she always hoped for. She is still hurting today and keeps my GF at arms length cause of it.


----------



## Zanne

NextTimeAround said:


> I would want to know. Imagine friends mutual to the husband and wife talking about this new person. the betrayed spouse would want to know who is porking their (estranged) spouse (and probably running the household finances dry.)
> 
> ETA: and who is also spending time around and influencing their children........ how's that for wanting to be a good parent! You don't want kids hanging around strange adults you've never met.


To be clear, nobody knows (except anonymous people on TAM). No kids are involved. No friends are aware. The deception is exhausting, but we fully intend to be with each other after we are publicly split from our current spouses. And even then kids would not be immediately involved. I see it all as a timing thing.

We have been "seeing" each other for over a year now. I wouldn't say that we are in any fog. We have worked through many issues together and we always come back to wanting to be together some day.


----------



## MattMatt

just got it 55 said:


> Zanne Have your learned nothing here?:scratchhead:
> 
> 55


----------



## karole

vellocet said:


> Oh, I wasn't sure. I just type out as if karole was a "he" because you know how us men are with cheating women


I'm a female


----------



## Zanne

MattMatt said:


> Zanne, there is a problem with honesty in your relationship.
> 
> You say you hate the lies and deception, but those appear to be your tools for dealing with your marriage.
> 
> It may be stretching the analogy a tad, but it's a *little* bit like a burglar saying: "You know, I really hate these skeleton keys and this jemmy, but..."


True.....but I am protecting him from more pain. The marriage was already essentially over. We had been sleeping in separate rooms for eight months before I even started talking to OM.

What I am doing is controlling the situation to ensure the least amount of fall out for everyone involved. I willingly admit to that.


----------



## Wolf1974

Zanne said:


> True.....but I am protecting him from more pain. The marriage was already essentially over. We had been sleeping in separate rooms for eight months before I even started talking to OM.
> 
> What I am doing is controlling the situation to ensure the least amount of fall out for everyone involved. I willingly admit to that.


You aren't protecting him, sorry but you aren't. The only thing that would have made my x wife's affair easier to take would have been honest about it. The lying hurt way more than the sexual act. I married her, took vows, took care of her and gave her two kids. I DESERVED better than being lied to. So does your husband. If/when he finds out the lies will hurt and makes the whole marriage seem like one big lie. Cause it then calls into question has she lied about everything. Trust me I know


----------



## honcho

Zanne said:


> True.....but I am protecting him from more pain. The marriage was already essentially over. We had been sleeping in separate rooms for eight months before I even started talking to OM.
> 
> What I am doing is controlling the situation to ensure the least amount of fall out for everyone involved. I willingly admit to that.


NO you are not, you are doing just the opposite. You know your husband wont file, he holds onto hope apparently no matter how slim because you dont file.


----------



## Pluto2

Zanne, on your other thread you discussed other EA(s). Does your H know about them, and if so, is that why you state that the marriage was already over before your present A


----------



## MattMatt

Pluto2 said:


> Zanne, on your other thread you discussed other EA(s). Does your H know about them, and if so, is that why you state that the marriage was already over before your present A


Is there an element of gaslighting here, I wonder?:scratchhead:


----------



## 3putt

Zanne said:


> True.....but I am protecting him from more pain. The marriage was already essentially over. We had been sleeping in separate rooms for eight months before I even started talking to OM.
> 
> What I am doing is controlling the situation to ensure the least amount of fall out for everyone involved. I willingly admit to that.


Oh bullsh!t! You're controlling the situation to protect yourself and your sleazy adultery partner. That's all, and you know it.


----------



## Zanne

Point taken.

I hope that I answered your questions. I'm going to let the rest of the good people here carry on with this thread.

Thanks again, Rookie, for your contribution towards a more balanced environment here.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Zanne said:


> True.....but I am protecting him from more pain. The marriage was already essentially over. We had been sleeping in separate rooms for eight months before I even started talking to OM.
> 
> *What I am doing is controlling the situation to ensure the least amount of fall out for everyone involved. I willingly admit to that.*



"controlling", yes, I would agree. but for a purpose different from what you state. If your husband knew how bad it is, that there is no hope for reconciliation and that, quite frankly he grew a pair and decided that he didn't want to wait around for the possibility of sloppy seconds, then he might just beat you to it in filing for divorce.

......... which just might be something that you don't want........ wanting to have everything perfectly planned to your advantage in your exit strategy


----------



## karole

I hate to say this but you guys are just wasting your breath or your keystrokes because Zanne isn't going to listen to any of it. She isn't going to stop the lying to her husband and children and she isn't going to stop her affair. There is nothing anyone can say to her that hasn't already been said on this board in her past threads. A few months back she posted that she was no longer in contact with her OM and was going to tell the OM's wife about the affair. That obviously didn't happen. 

Zanne met the OM on this board and she was not his first affair. So he is a real prize. He keeps telling her he is filing for divorce, but he obviously hasn't. I would be surprised if he actually does. 

I just feel so bad for Zanne's family and the OM's wife and children.


----------



## Zanne

Pluto2 said:


> Zanne, on your other thread you discussed other EA(s). Does your H know about them, and if so, is that why you state that the marriage was already over before your present A





3putt said:


> Oh bullsh!t! You're controlling the situation to protect yourself and your sleazy adultery partner. That's all, and you know it.


Sorry.... you guys posted just ahead of me. Yes, my husband knew about the EA with our friend which I see as one sided now. I tried to use it as a wake up call for him. I wanted to do the right thing, but honestly I struggled with lack of romantic feelings for my husband for a long time and he understands why. I set up MC, read the books, asked him to participate, etc. It was a last ditch effort.

And yes, some of my actions are self preservation. But I see a bigger picture and I feel our families will heal better with less drama.


----------



## Thundarr

Zanne said:


> To be clear, nobody knows (except anonymous people on TAM). No kids are involved. No friends are aware. The deception is exhausting, but we fully intend to be with each other after we are publicly split from our current spouses. And even then kids would not be immediately involved. I see it all as a timing thing.
> 
> We have been "seeing" each other for over a year now. I wouldn't say that we are in any fog. We have worked through many issues together and we always come back to wanting to be together some day.


You seem doomed to repeat similar mistakes Zanne. Such a very small percent of marriages born of infidelity last yet they all think they're going to. It's a problem with the basic logic once infatuation is taken out of the equation.

I don't wish bad intent on you. But from an analyticalal standpoint, I'd take 75/1 odds that a marriage to your affair partner will not last.


----------



## Zanne

karole said:


> I hate to say this but you guys are just wasting your breath or your keystrokes because Zanne isn't going to listen to any of it. She isn't going to stop the lying to her husband and children and she isn't going to stop her affair. There is nothing anyone can say to her that hasn't already been said on this board in her past threads. A few months back she posted that she was no longer in contact with her OM and was going to tell the OM's wife about the affair. That obviously didn't happen.
> 
> Zanne met the OM on this board and she was not his first affair. So he is a real prize. He keeps telling her he is filing for divorce, but he obviously hasn't. I would be surprised if he actually does.
> 
> I just feel so bad for Zanne's family and the OM's wife and children.


Well thanks for caring, Karole. Actually, it's not all peachy and I realize that but I'm trying to keep us all afloat. As it turns out, my youngest is struggling and had a medical emergency the last time I was out of town and my husband knew I must have been with OM since I didn't come straight home (I literally couldn't). The emergency ended up being drug related, so yeah, life's not perfect, okay?


----------



## Zanne

Thundarr said:


> You seem doomed to repeat similar mistakes Zanne. Such a very small percent of marriages born of infidelity last yet they all think they're going to. It's a problem with the basic logic once infatuation is taken out of the equation.
> 
> I don't wish bad intent on you. But from an analyticalal standpoint, I'd take 75/1 odds that a marriage to your affair partner will not last.


And we believe we are past the infatuation point. I guess time will tell. Do you think either of us wants to repeat any of the mistakes in our current marriages? I would be curious to know if the first marriages mentioned in these statistics are long term marriages. I think that matters.


----------



## Thundarr

I like success stories. Whether it's reconciliation or whether it's being a better spouse for the next partner. Either way the key is to not make the same mistakes or similar mistakes over and over. There's a world of difference between bad choices leading to growth versus a life time pattern of bad choices to repeat.


----------



## Wolf1974

karole said:


> I hate to say this but you guys are just wasting your breath or your keystrokes because Zanne isn't going to listen to any of it. She isn't going to stop the lying to her husband and children and she isn't going to stop her affair. There is nothing anyone can say to her that hasn't already been said on this board in her past threads. A few months back she posted that she was no longer in contact with her OM and was going to tell the OM's wife about the affair. That obviously didn't happen.
> 
> Zanne met the OM on this board and she was not his first affair. So he is a real prize. He keeps telling her he is filing for divorce, but he obviously hasn't. I would be surprised if he actually does.
> 
> I just feel so bad for Zanne's family and the OM's wife and children.


I do now as well. Since this is a thread for lurking waywards to learn something I would encourage you to not do what Zanne is doing and come clean and honest with your spouse. 

The fallout of affairs have two parts. The physical is one issue and the other is the lying associated with it.


As to illustrate my x having an affair is the reason we needed to divorce. The lying and deceit is the reason I think she is a rotten human and bad mother. She had the power to do things very different which didn't involve lying and deceit.

And this is what I want to drive home, again for the lurking waywards, had my x admitted and told me about the affair and the real reason she was leaving I may have been able to forgive her but I I wouldn't have stayed married because she broke her vows. However The fact that she lied repeatedly and deceived both me and our children is the reason I never will.


----------



## Thundarr

Zanne said:


> And we believe we are past the infatuation point. I guess time will tell. Do you think either of us wants to repeat any of the mistakes in our current marriages? I would be curious to know if the first marriages mentioned in these statistics are long term marriages. I think that matters.


The concept of 'absence make the heart grow fonder' IMO is a hurdle you'll have to overcome. Things will be different when you're together every day. The emotional reward (or fix/infatuation) will be reduced because there will be no wait. You guys will just be with each other every day. It's a new dynamic and it doesn't bring about the same kind of excitement.

Of course I don't think you would purposely repeat mistakes. Who would? Honestly I hope that whatever you choose to do after your marriage is over is not a mistake. It's just my opinion that statistics are overwhelmingly against you in this case. That doesn't mean you won't be the exception but most people think they're the exception until they realize they're not.

You asked about context of the statistics of marriages to affair partners. Well my 75/1 number is subjective. I read several articles with varying statistics but they were all bleak. So I imagine that there's betting odds based on statistics, observations, etc and came up with 75/1 odds. I'm a pretty smart guy when it comes to predicting cause and effect and using statistics I've seen and read. Sound arrogant for me to say that but I'm a little arrogant . 

Point is, when I say your chances are slim for success with this guy, I really do believe that. You can prove conventional wisdom wrong but you'll be the exception in doing so.


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> You know exactly how to pronounce it, AR.  You were here when I first arrived in TAMland. My original username was Empty Inside. The TAMers shortened it to "EI" on their own, so I eventually requested that the mods change it. It's pronounced "E-Eye."


unless you are from Australia, in which case it is pronounced "Oy".


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> That's what I've been hinting at all along. Thanks
> 
> And for all your talk about civility, well....


You might as well stop trying to cause trouble, I'm not biting.


----------



## Rookie4

3putt said:


> Oh bullsh!t! You're controlling the situation to protect yourself and your sleazy adultery partner. That's all, and you know it.


It is perfectly all right for you to disagree with Zanne, but please keep a civil tongue . Locking the thread will help nobody.


----------



## Rookie4

cpacan said:


> I would like to pose a question related to the opening post. Let's say that Rookie succeed his mission of getting more WS to post. IF all these WS were coming, in all shapes and forms, from those seeking advice and support in saving their marriage to those teaching loayal spouses that they all had it coming (if they had only listened, they wouldn't have been cheated on) mixed with hardcore serial cheaters.
> 
> Does anyone actually believe that they would listen, take note and accept responsibility, if all BS postsers (those who were left) delt them virtual hugs and told them, in a calm and quiet manner, to try and find some empathy for their BS (= no 2x4 or calling bulls... on statements)?
> 
> I'm really curious and hope that those who believe it would work, will explain exactly why you think that would be the case. I believe this would be the best way to support Rookies, I think, original intend.


The purpose of this thread is to redress the imbalance on TAM towards male BS's and their support, and to provide the SAME level of courteous and respectful support for the other side of the equation. I never said that WS's could not and should not be asked tough questions, or that BS's should not be able to express their opinions. As long as it is done in a civil manner.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Zane*
> My husband never wanted out. He's waiting for me to file. He does understand that it's over though. He just can't be the one to file. He acknowledges 22 years of bad behavior but thinks the last few years should make up for it. And of course the affair is totally on me.


Well we have a least one WS posting here. I do not know if Zane feels safe or is able to take a punch as good as Mohammed Ali but she is still posting!



Zane’s post above reiterates something I have heard before. The first thing is that the BS had many years of bad behavior then realized it and tried to make it up for several years. Those make up years were rejected by Zane and she decided to have an affair. Zanes says that she is totally responsible for the affair.



*What can we learn from this?*

*Would Zane or other WSs not have an affair if the BS would NOT have had 22 years of “bad behavior”?

When a spouse has many years of “bad behavior” is it then impossible for the other spouse to accept the make up years and get the marriage back on a better relationship?*

Zane wants out and her husband does not. This is very sad as another marriage is broken but what can we learn from Zane?

I will say this; Zane seems to be very open about her situation and she can take a punch as strong as George Foremen can give and she still posts.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> BY ZANE
> 
> *To be clear, nobody knows* (except anonymous people on TAM). No kids are involved. No friends are aware. The deception is exhausting, but we fully intend to be with each other after we are publicly split from our current spouses. And even then kids would not be immediately involved. I see it all as a timing thing.
> 
> We have been "seeing" each other for over a year now. I wouldn't say that we are in any fog. We have worked through many issues together and we always come back to wanting to be together some day.
> 
> 
> True.....but *I am protecting him from more pain*. The marriage was already essentially over. We had been sleeping in separate rooms for eight months before I even started talking to OM.
> 
> What I am doing is *controlling the situation to ensure the least amount of fall out for everyone involved*. I willingly admit to that.
> 
> 
> Sorry.... you guys posted just ahead of me. Yes, my husband knew about the EA with our friend which I see as one sided now. I tried to use it as a wake up call for him. I wanted to do the right thing, but honestly I struggled with lack of romantic feelings for my husband for a long time and he understands why. I set up MC, read the books, asked him to participate, etc. It was a last ditch effort.
> 
> And yes, some of my actions are self preservation. But I see a bigger picture and *I feel our families will heal better with less drama.*
> 
> Well thanks for caring, Karole. Actually, it's not all peachy and I realize that but I'm trying to keep us all afloat. As it turns out, my youngest is struggling and had a medical emergency the last time I was out of town and my husband knew I must have been with OM since I didn't come straight home (I literally couldn't). The emergency ended up being drug related, so yeah, life's not perfect, okay?
> 
> 
> I wish that we could all be honest with each other and I hate the lies and deception.



Zane is trying to protect her husband from more pain and to ensure the least amount of fall out for everyone involved by not being open and honest and using lies and deception.

Are there any WS or BS people out there that have tried this method? *For those that have gone through this method of Zanes, what can you tell us about the outcome?*


----------



## MattMatt

Mr Blunt said:


> Zane is trying to protect her husband from more pain and to ensure the least amount of fall out for everyone involved by not being open and honest and using lies and deception.
> 
> Are there any WS or BS people out there that have tried this method? *For those that have gone through this method of Zanes, what can you tell us about the outcome?*


Yes. Me. As it happens, to some extent. 

My wife's husband was dying -long-term health problem- and we were very discrete.

He actually encouraged her to have an affair and we got married a "decent" interval after his death.

Been together 25 years, now.


----------



## Pluto2

My ex was a serial cheater who used lies and deception to manipulate the situation, much the same way Zanne is using lies to manipulate her H and arrange sufficient financial support for herself before filing (facts from her previous thread). Zanne asserts that no children are involved (which means that her children are unaware of her infidelity-again facts from her thread). My children were forced to learn of their father's betrayal by his own carelessness.
There was, and remains, no circumstances under which I would ever take him back. He remains completely non-apologetic for his infidelity and his betrayals, and non-remorseful for the pain he inflicted on me or my children, which he has essentially abandoned. 

Frankly, Mr. Blount, I thought that providing support for active cheaters was against TAM policy. Aren't there already cheater sites out there?


----------



## NextTimeAround

MattMatt said:


> Yes. Me. As it happens, to some extent.
> 
> My wife's husband was dying -long-term health problem- and we were very discrete.
> 
> He actually encouraged her to have an affair and we got married a "decent" interval after his death.
> 
> Been together 25 years, now.


Nigella Lawson's dying 1st husband encouraged her and Saatchi to get together..... while Saatchi was still married as well.

15 years together later they split up. Under which column would that statistic go?


----------



## Regret214

I don't think Mr. Blunt is looking to aid an active cheater by giving advise on how to continue the affair. I believe he's looking for people to state what happens when they lie to their spouse to "save" their feelings and what the inevitable outcome is.


Edit to add: Just for the sheer sake of it, I looked at the Forum Rules. There actually is nothing in there about aiding an active cheater in any respect.


----------



## Mr. Dee

Zanne said:


> He suspects that I am still in contact with OM and recently went as far to say that he wants me to be honest with him when I disappear for weekends with "friends," but I just don't think that he can handle it. I wish that we could all be honest with each other and I hate the lies and deception.


I once thought like you but I see now I could NOT have been more wrong. Me and xOW told ourselves my W knows and just pretends not to. I told myself I was only keeping secret to protect my W. As the A lengthened, my W had fears and often begged me to always tell her the truth. I lied. 

In reality, W never knew. She really thought I was someone who could never do that to her. She would never have been able to "pretend not to know". How could I have thought that? I think now that I must have been somebody else! As for protecting my W, (obviously just being with xAP means I wasn't), but the lying absolutely made it a billion times worse for W. She has PTSD so bad from what I did, and often admits to me that thinking about my lies is far more crushing to her than thinking about my acts.

If you hate the lies and deception, just tell him the truth. It is a much more stress free way to live, for both of you. Just sit him down and say, "I've done the worst thing to you, and you'll probably divorce me and I deserve it, but you deserve to know...". That's how I did it.


----------



## jld

Mr Blunt said:


> *Would Zane or other WSs not have an affair if the BS would NOT have had 22 years of “bad behavior”?
> 
> When a spouse has many years of “bad behavior” is it then impossible for the other spouse to accept the make up years and get the marriage back on a better relationship?*
> 
> Zane wants out and her husband does not. This is very sad as another marriage is broken but what can we learn from Zane?


I think Zanne is handling all this amazingly well. 

Karole looks at this through the eyes of a child affected by her mother's affair. Vell looks at this as the former husband of a serial cheater. Mr. Blunt, in my opinion, looks at this through compassion and wisdom earned through hard experience.

Zanne, I think you are just spent. You said you are just done, and I believe that. You probably felt starved for years. I bet you did try to communicate that for years, and your spouse just could not meet the need. Now everyone is crying for him. Who was crying for you all those years?

We can sit here and argue this backwards and forwards, and judge without end. Or we can acknowledge that humans are not going to go forever without their needs met, however illegitimately we judge them to be meeting them. 

Some people simply do not have the predisposition to cheat. I don't think they ever would, just like some people would never smoke or take drugs or steal. It is just not a temptation at all to some people. And makes it so easy for them to judge. Effortless, really.

I think "wayward" spouses are also "betrayed" spouses. And they carry all the guilt and shame society (or TAM) wants to heap on them. And the "betrayed" ones so often wrap themselves in the cloak of righteousness. Safer that way, I guess. Who wants to accept responsibility if they do not have to?

Someday maybe we will be able to look at all this in very practical, realistic terms, and just speak the language of meeting people's needs. Until then, I guess there will just be one "right" spouse and one "wrong" spouse.


----------



## Philat

jld said:


> I think "wayward" spouses are also "betrayed" spouses. And they carry all the guilt and shame society (or TAM) wants to heap on them. And the "betrayed" ones so often wrap themselves in the cloak of righteousness. Safer that way, I guess. Who wants to accept responsibility if they do not have to?


Seriously? In a Bizarro Universe maybe.


----------



## Pluto2

Regret214 said:


> I don't think Mr. Blunt is looking to aid an active cheater by giving advise on how to continue the affair. I believe he's looking for people to state what happens when they lie to their spouse to "save" their feelings and what the inevitable outcome is.
> 
> 
> Edit to add: Just for the sheer sake of it, I looked at the Forum Rules. There actually is nothing in there about aiding an active cheater in any respect.


Then I am done. I want no part in helping a cheater learn how to better justify their infidelity or deceive their current spouse. That might not be Mr. Blounts intent. But he is naive if he thinks it will result in anything else.


----------



## Regret214

Pluto2 said:


> Then I am done. I want no part in helping a cheater learn how to better justify their infidelity or deceive their current spouse. That might not be Mr. Blounts intent. But he is naive if he thinks it will result in anything else.


Again, I highly doubt anyone will come here and help someone justify or deceive their current spouse. That's not the TAM climate.


----------



## Davelli0331

jld said:


> I think Zanne is handling all this amazingly well.
> 
> Karole looks at this through the eyes of a child affected by her mother's affair. Vell looks at this as the former husband of a serial cheater. Mr. Blunt, in my opinion, looks at this through compassion and wisdom earned through hard experience.
> 
> Zanne, I think you are just spent. You said you are just done, and I believe that. You probably felt starved for years. I bet you did try to communicate that for years, and your spouse just could not meet the need. Now everyone is crying for him. Who was crying for you all those years?
> 
> We can sit here and argue this backwards and forwards, and judge without end. Or we can acknowledge that humans are not going to go forever without their needs met, however illegitimately we judge them to be meeting them.
> 
> Some people simply do not have the predisposition to cheat. I don't think they ever would, just like some people would never smoke or take drugs or steal. It is just not a temptation at all to some people. And makes it so easy for them to judge. Effortless, really.
> 
> I think "wayward" spouses are also "betrayed" spouses. And they carry all the guilt and shame society (or TAM) wants to heap on them. And the "betrayed" ones so often wrap themselves in the cloak of righteousness. Safer that way, I guess. Who wants to accept responsibility if they do not have to?
> 
> Someday maybe we will be able to look at all this in very practical, realistic terms, and just speak the language of meeting people's needs. Until then, I guess there will just be one "right" spouse and one "wrong" spouse.


Cheating and being cheated on are very complex and traumatic events for all parties involved. I think for a lot of people, it's so traumatic that they resort to the coping mechanism of simplifying everything so that he or she is the Good Guy and the other spouse is the earthly incarnation of Evil. Though each spouse will make token remarks about "both parties contributing", you see this lopsided mentality all the time in both BSes and WSes. This coping strategy then turns into a worldview that becomes very binary, where many BSes think that WSes are without soul or conscience and many WSes think that BSes were primarily at fault for the affairs.

When the worldview becomes that binary, any attempt to inject nuance or context into it is usually met with hostility. Then when you add all of the hurt that comes from affairs on top of that, to question that worldview means to question that hurt, which understandably causes further anger and defensiveness.

That's why I still maintain that there needs to be a separate subforum for WSes. I think it's just too much to ask of BSes and WSes to put aside the hurt and resentment they feel toward the other. You can see it here in this thread, the same people from both sides of the aisle reposting their same positions over and over.


----------



## Served Cold

This thread has me shaking my head. If my ex wife, while in her affair , I'm sure she would have lapped up being respectfully addressed. It's almost funny how a cheater wants to be talked to respectfully while at the same time being disrespectful to the person they made a vow to. 

Fast forward....the douche she cheated with dumped her after I filed for divorce. Prince Charming or Princess Charming while in an affair are delusional. No amount of respectful dialogue would have them believe otherwise. Time is the only thing that opens their eyes. Usually, it's too late.

This thread is attractive to a cheater, especially when the opening post is about reaching out to them and warning about how some betrayed spouses are haters and abusive, is like music to a cheaters ears.

Not to say that reconciliation cannot happen, but as I see it, true reconciliation is not about coddling a cheater. It's not rocket science that most cheaters may run off when being challenged. of course they lap being warned against haters. In their minds a "hater" is anyone that is standing between them the cake buffet.


----------



## GusPolinski

Davelli0331 said:


> That's why I still maintain that there needs to be a separate subforum for WSes. I think it's just too much to ask of BSes and WSes to put aside the hurt and resentment they feel toward the other. You can see it here in this thread, the same people from both sides of the aisle reposting their same positions over and over.


It wouldn't matter; men post in the Ladies' Lounge and women post in the Men's Clubhouse.


----------



## bandit.45

Served Cold said:


> This thread has me shaking my head. If my ex wife, while in her affair , I'm sure she would have lapped up being respectfully addressed. It's almost funny how a cheater wants to be talked to respectfully while at the same time being disrespectful to the person they made a vow to.
> 
> Fast forward....the douche she cheated with dumped her after I filed for divorce. Prince Charming or Princess Charming while in an affair are delusional. No amount of respectful dialogue would have them believe otherwise. Time is the only thing that opens their eyes. Usually, it's too late.
> 
> This thread is attractive to a cheater, especially when the opening post is about reaching out to them and warning about how some betrayed spouses are haters and abusive, is like music to a cheaters ears.
> 
> Not to say that reconciliation cannot happen, but as I see it, true reconciliation is not about coddling a cheater. It's not rocket science that most cheaters may run off when being challenged. of course they lap being warned against haters. In their minds a "hater" is anyone that is standing between them the cake buffet.


Did your ex try to get you to take her back. Be her plan B?


----------



## Philat

Pluto2 said:


> Then I am done. I want no part in helping a cheater learn how to better justify their infidelity or deceive their current spouse. That might not be Mr. Blounts intent. But he is naive if he thinks it will result in anything else.


Mr. Blunt is certainly not one to condone or try to justify cheating. I think that if people were to respond to his call for stories on "deceiving to spare the BS more pain" we could well see many accounts of how this approach backfired and actually caused much more pain.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> I think "wayward" spouses are also "betrayed" spouses. And they carry all the guilt and shame society (or TAM) wants to heap on them. And the "betrayed" ones so often wrap themselves in the cloak of righteousness. Safer that way, I guess. Who wants to accept responsibility if they do not have to?


Really? Wayward spouses are betrayed spouses. 

I suppose you are trying to illustrate a point, but my guess is very few waywards are betrayed by neglect, abuse, etc. Not in my own experience. Most of the ones I've seen were either weak or entitled, or lack proper boundaries. Human frailty or poor character. 

I'm just rooting for Zanne to tell her husband sooner rather than later. If he finds out later, he will hate her guts even more.


----------



## tonedef

I have to wonder though, Zanne, if a part of you is afraid of change? I learned on here that my affair was an exit affair- like you, we had already detached, but me meeting and falling for om was a motivator for me to ''sh1t or get off the pot'' and was one of the many reasons why I was up front and honest is because I had nothing to lose (meaning not try to keep the status quo). So I wonder if there is something to lose? Or afraid of change? I know you dont want to hurt your H, I didnt want to hurt my ex, but in this case- I think ripping off the band aid would be better than slowly tearing it off. I do wish you both the best of luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> Again, I highly doubt anyone will come here and help someone justify or deceive their current spouse. That's not the TAM climate.


Zanne is


When she makes statements that's she is cheating behind her spouses back to spare him further pain that is justifying. Or do you mean others coming here telling her she is doing the right thing?


----------



## Served Cold

bandit.45 said:


> Did your ex try to get you to take her back. Be her plan B?



I nicely showed her the door, I wished her well. As to the plan B, As soon I discovered her affair I understood that a cheater is all about plan B. 
The thing is they cheat with plan F or Z, if they cheat with you they're never plan A. An "A" person would never get involved with someone who cheats. 

I'm a plan A guy. If a cheater decides you're a plan B is because they think of themselves as above the alphabet.


----------



## Wolf1974

staystrong said:


> Really? Wayward spouses are betrayed spouses.
> 
> I suppose you are trying to illustrate a point, but my guess is very few waywards are betrayed by neglect, abuse, etc. Not in my own experience. Most of the ones I've seen were either weak or entitled, or lack proper boundaries. Human frailty or poor character.
> 
> I'm just rooting for Zanne to tell her husband sooner rather than later. If he finds out later, he will hate her guts even more.


Not just them but her kids to. Because then the focus of the kids go from "hey mom and dad couldn't get along so they divorced" to hey mom cheated and they got divorced. 

My feeling is since her husband already suspects he will find out eventually and then it's game over for any amicable separation and divorce. It's game over for acting civilly for years to come at the kids events. It's game over for looking like the moral parent because if the continued lying and deceit. I lived this and watched all my mutual and many of my x wives friends turn from her cause of the affair which again could have been handled differently had she chose to. But he dumped her too so now she is mostly alone


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> I think Zanne is handling all this amazingly well.
> 
> Karole looks at this through the eyes of a child affected by her mother's affair. Vell looks at this as the former husband of a serial cheater. Mr. Blunt, in my opinion, looks at this through compassion and wisdom earned through hard experience.
> 
> Zanne, I think you are just spent. You said you are just done, and I believe that. You probably felt starved for years. I bet you did try to communicate that for years, and your spouse just could not meet the need. Now everyone is crying for him. Who was crying for you all those years?
> 
> We can sit here and argue this backwards and forwards, and judge without end. Or we can acknowledge that humans are not going to go forever without their needs met, however illegitimately we judge them to be meeting them.
> 
> Some people simply do not have the predisposition to cheat. I don't think they ever would, just like some people would never smoke or take drugs or steal. It is just not a temptation at all to some people. And makes it so easy for them to judge. Effortless, really.
> 
> I think "wayward" spouses are also "betrayed" spouses. And they carry all the guilt and shame society (or TAM) wants to heap on them. And the "betrayed" ones so often wrap themselves in the cloak of righteousness. Safer that way, I guess.* Who wants to accept responsibility if they do not have to?
> *
> Someday maybe we will be able to look at all this in very practical, realistic terms, and just speak the language of meeting people's needs. Until then, I guess there will just be one "right" spouse and one "wrong" spouse.


People of character


----------



## Regret214

Wolf1974 said:


> Zanne is
> 
> 
> When she makes statements that's she is cheating behind her spouses back to spare him further pain that is justifying. Or do you mean others coming here telling her she is doing the right thing?


Again, I think some of you are seeing this through a totally different lens than prescribed.

Mr. Blunt is asking _others_ to relate how lying and deception worked out for _their_ affair ending to illustrate to Zanne what is inevitable.


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> Again, I think some of you are seeing this through a totally different lens than prescribed.
> 
> Mr. Blunt is asking _others_ to relate how lying and deception worked out for _their_ affair ending to illustrate to Zanne what is inevitable.


Which I did a few posts up. I illustrated that while she thinks lying about this is the way to go that ultimately will cost her a lot more than coming clean with it


----------



## Regret214

Wolf1974 said:


> People of character


Ever gone over the speed limit? Ever smoked? Ever drank? Ever did *anything* wrong?

Some of you put yourselves on your own pedestal and think you can wield some sort of hammer of righteousness without repent.

Guess what? You're fallible. Your "character" is tainted in some way at some point, too. You're so ego-driven that you can't see past the bridges of your noses. Again, I think it is so telling that the ones who are here so upset with the waywards, are the ones who supposedly "healed" when they divorced. 

You're not healed. You're still hurting. Understand that and work on yourself instead of trying to work others over.


----------



## aug

Wolf1974 said:


> Which I did a few posts up. I illustrated that while she thinks lying about this is the way to go that ultimately will cost her a lot more than coming clean with it


I think Zanne really doesnt care about future costs. At the very least, she has already decided her future costs is worth it for what she's getting in the present.


----------



## aug

Regret214 said:


> Ever gone over the speed limit? Ever smoked? Ever drank? Ever did *anything* wrong?
> 
> Some of you put yourselves on your own pedestal and think you can wield some sort of hammer of righteousness without repent.



Speeding, smoking or drinking versus adultery?


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> Ever gone over the speed limit? Ever smoked? Ever drank? Ever did *anything* wrong?
> 
> Some of you put yourselves on your own pedestal and think you can wield some sort of hammer of righteousness without repent.
> 
> Guess what? You're fallible. Your "character" is tainted in some way at some point, too. You're so ego-driven that you can't see past the bridges of your noses. Again, I think it is so telling that the ones who are here so upset with the waywards, are the ones who supposedly "healed" when they divorced.
> 
> You're not healed. You're still hurting. Understand that and work on yourself instead of trying to work others over.


You ask have I made mistakes? My answer is yes

But that's not the important question. The important question is did I own the mistakes, admit to them and say I was wrong and the answer is still YES

People of character accept they have done wrong and admit it, own and and accept consequences, That is what I believe and how I was raised. No one is perfect but it's what we do with it that is important.

And don't fool yourself trying to turn the whole fallible argument onto others, I have been tempted to cheat. But I said no where my x said yes. It's about the choices we make in those moments , the low ones, that matter.


----------



## Mr. Dee

jld said:


> Zanne, I think you are just spent. You probably felt starved for years. I bet you did try to communicate that for years, and your spouse just could not meet the need. Now everyone is crying for him. Who was crying for you all those years?
> 
> We... can acknowledge that humans are not going to go forever without their needs met, however illegitimately we judge them to be meeting them.


Nope, no way, I can in all honesty say that at no time during or after my affair did I ever think that I was missing anything from my W, or that my xAP was meeting any needs that W didn't for me. xAP believed she was, but she wasn't. My cheating was 100% something wrong with me and 0% anything wrong with my W or my marriage. The only thing wrong with my marriage was me.


----------



## Regret214

aug said:


> Speeding, smoking or drinking versus adultery? Really?


Yes, really. Is character only defined by people who cheat or don't?


----------



## Regret214

Wolf1974 said:


> You ask have I made mistakes? My answer is yes
> 
> But that's not the important question. The important question is did I own the mistakes, admit to them and say I was wrong and the answer is still YES
> 
> People of character accept they have done wrong and admit it, own and and accept consequences, That is what I believe and how I was raised. No one is perfect but it's what we do with it that is important.
> 
> And don't fool yourself trying to turn the whole fallible argument onto others, I have been tempted to cheat. But I said no where my x said yes. It's about the choices we make in those moments , the low ones, that matter.


Point taken.


----------



## Wolf1974

aug said:


> I think Zanne really doesnt care about future costs. At the very least, she has already decided her future costs is worth it for what she's getting in the present.


I know. And I get that. But since this was set up for the lurking waywards, the ones reading but not posting, maybe they can see at least one example of how deception turned worse than trying to hide pain from someone


----------



## aug

Regret214 said:


> Yes, really. Is character only defined by people who cheat or don't?


On this thread, yes.


----------



## Served Cold

Regret214 said:


> Ever gone over the speed limit? Ever smoked? Ever drank? Ever did *anything* wrong?
> 
> Some of you put yourselves on your own pedestal and think you can wield some sort of hammer of righteousness without repent.
> 
> Guess what? You're fallible. Your "character" is tainted in some way at some point, too. You're so ego-driven that you can't see past the bridges of your noses. Again, I think it is so telling that the ones who are here so upset with the waywards, are the ones who supposedly "healed" when they divorced.
> 
> You're not healed. You're still hurting. Understand that and work on yourself instead of trying to work others over.



This triggered me. My ex pretty much did this, the you're not perfect attack. Funny thing is, the affair partner is usually worse than the spouse they're cheating on. 

How weird is that.


----------



## Regret214

LOL...okay. So character is defined by cheating on this thread only.

Gotcha. 



geesh.


----------



## staystrong

aug said:


> Speeding, smoking or drinking versus adultery?


Seriously, does Dig put up with these kinds of comparisons?


----------



## 3putt

Regret214 said:


> LOL...okay. So character is defined by cheating on this thread only.
> 
> Gotcha.
> 
> 
> 
> geesh.


I have to wonder what Dig would think about these little apple and orange comparisons you're using to make a point about character.


----------



## Regret214

3putt said:


> I have to wonder what Dig would think about these little apple and orange comparisons you're using to make a point about character.


He would understand mostly because I'm not as prolific as he is. He'd understand the point I was trying to make.


----------



## karole

In my humble opinion, Zanne's reason for not telling her husband and children isn't because she wants to spare him pain its due to pure selfishness. She's afraid her husband will kick her out of her home and she has no where to go and no job, so no way to support herself.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Regret214 said:


> You're not healed. You're still hurting. Understand that and work on yourself instead of trying to work others over.


And have you truely accepted 100% accountability for your past adulterous actions? 

Because when you are morally comparing smoking (which last I checked is still legal) with engaging in an affair, that pretty much tells everyone clearly that you haven't.

Sorry, the "you're not perfect either because of x, y and z" is textbook blame shifting.


----------



## Regret214

Served Cold said:


> This triggered me. My ex pretty much did this, the you're not perfect attack. Funny thing is, the affair partner is usually worse than the spouse they're cheating on.
> 
> How weird is that.


Sorry if you triggered off that, however I am referring to the posters NOW and not during their spouse's affair. My commentary had nothing to do with any betrayed _during_ an affair.


----------



## 3putt

Regret214 said:


> He would understand mostly because I'm not as prolific as he is. He'd understand the point I was trying to make.


You really think he would agree that someone who speeds, smokes, or drinks has the same character flaws as someone who cheats??

Okay.


----------



## Regret214

BetrayedDad said:


> And have you truely accepted 100% accountability for your past adulterous actions?
> 
> Because when you are morally comparing smoking (which last I checked is still legal) with engaging in an affair, that pretty much tells everyone clearly that you haven't.


Yes, I've accepted 100% accountability.

Now, let's look at what you wrote and think about it for a minute. Because I wrote something that wasn't perfectly written and my comparisons are far from stellar, you immediately question my accountability without knowing thing one about what has gone on in my home. You have no clue as to how hard I have worked to make things right with Dig. You have no clue as to the lengths I've gone to because of my actions.

Questioned all because I didn't make a point succinctly.


----------



## RWB

Regret214 said:


> ... Ever did *anything* wrong?
> 
> Some of you put yourselves on your own pedestal and think you can wield some sort of hammer of righteousness without repent...
> 
> *Guess what? You're fallible. Your "character" is tainted in some way at some point, too...*
> 
> You're not healed. You're still hurting.


Been there...

After finally discovering the truth about my fww, I did wield a mighty big hammer. Truth be told, during R I enjoyed the feeling of righteousness. 

Let's look at the score card...

Me, 100% faithful for 30 years
Her, 7 years, serial PA affairs

Compared to her, short of murder what could I do to screw up more than her... NOTHING! Not just righteous... almighty.

For a while, I sat up there on my high vantage, judging waywards I worked with or knew personally. My wife being 1st in line. 

But, beating up on the B-Team loses its interest.


----------



## Regret214

3putt said:


> You really think he would agree that someone who speeds, smokes, or drinks has the same character flaws as someone who cheats??
> 
> Okay.


You didn't even absorb my response did you?

I said I didn't write as well as Dig, but that he would understand what I was trying to say.


----------



## Regret214

BetrayedDad said:


> Sorry, the "you're not perfect either because of x, y and z" is textbook blame shifting.


Since you edited your post - read my response to Served Cold.


----------



## aug

Regret214 said:


> You didn't even absorb my response did you?
> 
> I said I didn't write as well as Dig, but that he would understand what I was trying to say.



You write fine. 

I note that this is not the first time you compare your writing to Dig's. You have our own style, just keep developing it.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Regret214 said:


> Since you edited your post - read my response to Served Cold.


Yeah I forgot to add the last part. I don't doubt you're worked hard to make things right with your BS. I just don't think saying, "No one's perfect" has anything to do with the horrendous moral implications of cheating. The sky is blue too. So what? What's that have to do with adultery? I can't state that being a cheater is wrong because I got a speeding ticket once? Ridiculous.


----------



## Served Cold

Regret214 said:


> Ever gone over the speed limit? Ever smoked? Ever drank? Ever did *anything* wrong?
> 
> Some of you put yourselves on your own pedestal and think you can wield some sort of hammer of righteousness without repent.
> 
> Guess what? You're fallible. Your "character" is tainted in some way at some point, too. You're so ego-driven that you can't see past the bridges of your noses. Again, I think it is so telling that the ones who are here so upset with the waywards, are the ones who supposedly "healed" when they divorced.
> 
> You're not healed. You're still hurting. Understand that and work on yourself instead of trying to work others over.



This is perfect example of how the tables are turned. It's text book. I experienced it first hand. 

A rational person understands that no one is perfect. 

This post is eye opening and in it's own way is helpful.


----------



## Served Cold

Regret214 said:


> Sorry if you triggered off that, however I am referring to the posters NOW and not during their spouse's affair. My commentary had nothing to do with any betrayed _during_ an affair.


No need to apologize.


----------



## italianjob

Mr. Dee said:


> Nope, no way, I can in all honesty say that at no time during or after my affair did I ever think that I was missing anything from my W, or that my xAP was meeting any needs that W didn't for me. xAP believed she was, but she wasn't. My cheating was 100% something wrong with me and 0% anything wrong with my W or my marriage. The only thing wrong with my marriage was me.


Same here...


----------



## doubletrouble

When I found out about my fWW's PA and confronted her, it was nearly two and a half years afterwards. It hurt like hell. 

She said the reason she hadn't told me was to not hurt my feelings. Later she admitted she was only protecting herself. I added that she was also protecting OM.

Knowing all the lies surrounding the affair added a whole 'nother dimension to the pain.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Mr. Dee said:


> Nope, no way, I can in all honesty say that at no time during or after my affair did I ever think that I was missing anything from my W, or that my xAP was meeting any needs that W didn't for me. xAP believed she was, but she wasn't. My cheating was 100% something wrong with me and 0% anything wrong with my W or my marriage. The only thing wrong with my marriage was me.


I commend your honesty. It's TOO easy to find fault in another human being (again because no one is perfect) and use that as an excuse to engage in selfish behavior. It's refreshing to see someone take 100% ownership.


----------



## vellocet

Affaircare said:


> By the way, I want to personally call out one person: *Vellocet*. And not for the usual reasons! I believe Vellocet and I disagree on some things regarding Betrayed and Wayward spouses--after all, we are on opposite ends of the spectrum. For example, if a WS discusses "why" the affair occurred, I think that giving a reason is discussing the state of the marriage prior to the affair and is instrumental in discovering weaknesses and boundaries that the WS would need to work on


I would agree. Problem is, that's not the way the WSs that point the finger at their BSs are going about it.

If they want to explore the "whys" to help themselves because there were problems in the marriage, that is perfectly understandable. However, most of the "whys" from WSs here are nothing but pure blameshifting and finger pointing at the BS.

Its the "whys" that are blameshifting that I have a problem with. I would hope you do as well.




> for personal responsibility reasons, not for "blaming the BS" reasons. I think Vellocet may believe something closer to "Any reason given is blameshifting--the only response is that there is no reasonable reason."


Nope.

But when a WS gives their "reasons" and the dialog goes something on the lines of "my BS did this" or "my BS did that" or that their BS did not do something just perfectly the way the WS wants, THAT IS blameshifting. There is no logical explanation to indicate that it is anything but.




> So I'm calling him out because even though we do disagree, we have the pleasure of behaving in a way that is 'not the same' but respectful of each other.


When you said you were going to call me out, I thought you were going to ream me a good one.

Seriously, I have had dialog with you and I respect the way you conduct yourself. I can see what you are saying with regards to the "whys", but you have to realize, too many WS DO point the finger at their BS. Its all in the wording I suppose.

I will say this about "whys". If a couple is to reconcile, then once the BS is comfortable and the cheating has been adequately dealt with, or the pain subsides a bit, the "whys" will be important for the sake of the marriage, not to for "reasons" why the cheating happened.

But for the rest of us, like myself, the "whys" don't matter with regards to that particular person that would betray me. 
They are history regardless. They can make whatever excuse they want, or they can look to themselves and apply it to future relationships. Just as I would consider the "whys" for my own growth. (although probably a moot point for me because I don't ever plan on marrying again, much less entering a committed relationship)



> I wanted to mention out loud how much I appreciate that, and encourage *everyone *to behave like that.


Just note, that very small list of WSs on this site that I respect, you are on that list.


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> As far as I know, nobody has done that on this thread.


Oh no, nobody has on this thread. I was speaking of the usual crap we hear on the site in general.


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> Again, the poster did not say what you say they said.


Again, I wasn't saying that's what she said. I was speaking in general of my opinion as to when a BS may be able to come to terms with the marital problems.




> EI said:
> 
> Quote: EI wrote:
> 
> 
> which says that they dealt with the marriage problems and the infidelity problems hand-in-hand, which is not at all what you said.


Again, I did not say she said that. Those were MY words and MY opinion of when a BS can possibly cope with the marital problems.


----------



## IIJokerII

The effects of being unfaithful are never fully realized, even after the affair is over. Smoking, Drinking and other various vice's does not compare to the direct and/or indirect fallout from an affair. 

The betrayed parent all too often cedes to focusing entirely on their spouse and focusing less on the children's needs that are not held in a priority. If the little ones wish to go out and simply bond with their parents, or singular parent in an activity they once enjoyed may or WILL find themselves being dismissed by their parent(s) due to the overlapping conflict from the affair. Almostrecovered can attest to this.

As a Smoker and occasional drinker, both of which my children are protected from and educated about the health impacts to an individual, do not hinder their daily lives if governed properly. I do not need a drink or smoke at a school function or other child associated even. I harbor no ill will towards the rules barring these vices in public places to begin with. But lets to say that at one particular school even that both mom and dad are there and mom happens to bring her AP. I am quite sure Dad is going to struggle openly to some degree and have to resist the urge that the "Winner" of his wife's affection is not only better than him but more worthy to experience HIS children's life with hi ex wife. I am sure that no child wishes to see either of their parent hurt, and affairs have been proven to cause PTSD.

The money that both Mom and Dad would have made together is now separate as well as the need for individual income will have increased. Father's more often are required to pay child support and Alimony, thus handicapping him into having to work 2 jobs or more just to survive the week let alone anything past that. Sure, most people will vie for parallel parenting and joint custody but let get real here, it rarely happens. The bitterness and hurt will eventually work its way thru the kids in this manner. While dad is viewed as only being available every other weekend, mom is able to buy a new game console or bike for her child(ren). Dad cannot buy these things and as an additional handicap the WW has a new source of income via the OM. It can take quite the while for the BS to find a new love interest, especially if it is a man since more often than not Financial security is usually a EN's of women and what women is going to find a broke a55 Divorcee man alluring? Men love sex so Women do not face this problem on the same level of scale.

What about new schools and friends? Often Children are pulled from their familiar area's of life with school being one of the most important. Friends, routines and the comforts of what was are suddenly changed without their say or want. Pets should also be considered. 

Now I ask, does taking a smoke break or having a beer with dinner or eating a whole bag of cookies generate the same outcome or side effect? And nobody, ever, takes 100% ownership at first, and in most cases ever. You don't hurt others to make yourself feel better.


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> If you don't know what it takes for successful reconciliation, then what does this quote from a recent post of yours mean?


Boy, you are just grasping at straws aren't you?

This doesn't have to do with the reconciliation itself. My comment is about when a BS can start adequately looking at the marital problems. 

Coming to a point where one MIGHT be able to reconcile is not the same thing as reconciliation or its process.


----------



## Wolf1974

This turn of commentary has become interesting to me this morning and the moral ground the BS may stand on. When Regret questions "have you never done wrong" it's almost word for word what my x wife said to me when I questioned why she didn't just leave but instead cheated and lied. I mean she stood right before me and looked me in the eye and said "so what you never cheated". I Was so shocked and appalled by the question all I could say was no I'm nothing like you.

While in therapy I discussed this conversation. I remember asking the therapist how someone could justify things like this by accusing me of doing the thing she was doing. After all don't we all recognize that one tell tail sign of cheating is when the cheating partner accuses the other of cheating first. My therapist said that when someone does something wrong, if they have a conscious about it, and are confronted about it they have to pull the confronter down to their level as a defensive mechanism. That's not just cheating either. As a cop I write traffic tickets for example. The one thing I have heard over and over for 14 years is "come on man like you never speed". My response has always been "that's right I have and when I got pulled over I never complained about it like you and I just paid the ticket cause I was wrong".

So I don't ever consider that I put myself on a pedestal. Instead I saw it as my x and I started on a level field and she dug herself a hole. By her own choice. I have no self righteous view of not cheating. Just like I have no self righteous view of never hitting a woman. That's just the way a person lives
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> Someday maybe we will be able to look at all this in very practical, realistic terms, and just speak the language of meeting people's needs. *Until then, I guess there will just be one "right" spouse and one "wrong" spouse*.


Well I think most that have read you know who you think the "wrong" spouse is.



jld said:


> From what I have read about women who cheat, it is often because their emotional needs are not getting met.
> 
> Based on what I've read, I would hesitate to recommend that a woman take back a cheating husband. I think there is much more hope for taking back a cheating wife, if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs.


----------



## vellocet

Regret214 said:


> Again, I highly doubt anyone will come here and help someone justify or deceive their current spouse. That's not the TAM climate.


In general I agree.

But there are those that DO condone revenge affairs.


----------



## vellocet

Wolf1974 said:


> You ask have I made mistakes? My answer is yes


Question is, did your past mistakes cause deep emotional pain to someone else? There lies the difference and makes the comparison apples/oranges.


----------



## vellocet

Mr. Dee said:


> Nope, no way, I can in all honesty say that at no time during or after my affair did I ever think that I was missing anything from my W, or that my xAP was meeting any needs that W didn't for me. xAP believed she was, but she wasn't. My cheating was 100% something wrong with me and 0% anything wrong with my W or my marriage. The only thing wrong with my marriage was me.


You must be mistaken. That can't be.


----------



## pidge70

Well, I am screwed. I have cheated, I have drank, I'm a smoker and I have gotten a speeding ticket. Please disregard anything I say, as I am obviously a complete failure as a human being.


----------



## doubletrouble

vellocet said:


> Just as I would consider the "whys" for my own growth. (although probably a moot point for me because I don't ever plan on marrying again, much less entering a committed relationship)


Sorry to hear that, Vell. May I ask how old you are? Is life without risk a good one? 

Love is a risk, it means we allow ourselves to be vulnerable. Sometimes we get screwed, but the possibility of happiness in sharing a good life with someone who loves you is such a great gift. 

I've been cheated on many times. But here I am again, still risking it, still hoping to reap the reward. 

It's your choice, obviously -- this is no judgement of your choice. I've lived alone in my life, and I enjoy my own company because I like who I am. I'd be fine without a partner in life. But it enhances my life to share it.


----------



## Healer

Regret214 said:


> And here we go again with the parent thing...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah - it is of such minor consequence. No need to nitpick, right? Why sweat the small stuff.


----------



## Almostrecovered

pidge70 said:


> Well, I am screwed. I have cheated, I have drank, I'm a smoker and I have gotten a speeding ticket. Please disregard anything I say, as I am obviously a complete failure as a human being.



go on...kick it...you know you wanna...


----------



## Wolf1974

pidge70 said:


> Well, I am screwed. I have cheated, I have drank, I'm a smoker and I have gotten a speeding ticket. Please disregard anything I say, as I am obviously a complete failure as a human being.


Not true. Only if you don't accept the accountability for those choices is all
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

pidge70 said:


> Well, I am screwed. I have cheated, I have drank, I'm a smoker and I have gotten a speeding ticket. Please disregard anything I say, as I am obviously a complete failure as a human being.


I'll keep hanging with you Pidge. I'm a fvckup too. I haven't cheated but I'm guilty of the rest.


----------



## Regret214

Healer said:


> Yeah - it is of such minor consequence. No need to nitpick, right? Why sweat the small stuff.



Exactly...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> Except that it is not reality.


LOL. What reality do you live in? Post of the year!

I saw it devastate my children. It devastated my sister and me as children. I've witnessed it have horrible effects on many, many family member's and friend's children. I read about my favorite musicians and actors and artists who were crushed by their parent's divorcing. Many, many of these because of one parent's infidelity.

But I guess I'm not a real person, and none of the people I referenced are either.

I'd post what I really think of what you typed but I don't feel like getting banned again.


----------



## vellocet

doubletrouble said:


> Sorry to hear that, Vell. May I ask how old you are? Is life without risk a good one?


early 40's, and yes, life is good without the risk.




> Love is a risk, it means we allow ourselves to be vulnerable. Sometimes we get screwed, but the possibility of happiness in sharing a good life with someone who loves you is such a great gift.


And I absolutely support anyone that wants to take that risk. I still believe in the sanctity of marriage and committed relationships. I just don't want any part of them for myself any longer.



> I've been cheated on many times. But here I am again, still risking it, still hoping to reap the reward.


And I hope you find it my friend.


----------



## Healer

Zanne said:


> True.....but I am protecting him from more pain. The marriage was already essentially over. We had been sleeping in separate rooms for eight months before I even started talking to OM.
> 
> What I am doing is controlling the situation to ensure the least amount of fall out for everyone involved. I willingly admit to that.


Noble.


----------



## Healer

Regret214 said:


> Ever gone over the speed limit? Ever smoked? Ever drank? Ever did *anything* wrong?
> 
> Some of you put yourselves on your own pedestal and think you can wield some sort of hammer of righteousness without repent.
> 
> Guess what? You're fallible. Your "character" is tainted in some way at some point, too. You're so ego-driven that you can't see past the bridges of your noses. Again, I think it is so telling that the ones who are here so upset with the waywards, are the ones who supposedly "healed" when they divorced.
> 
> You're not healed. You're still hurting. Understand that and work on yourself instead of trying to work others over.


Did that make you feel better about yourself?


----------



## pidge70

Healer said:


> Noble.


God, I hope that is sarcasm.


----------



## Regret214

Healer said:


> Did that make you feel better about yourself?


No better. No worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

aug said:


> Speeding, smoking or drinking versus adultery?


My stbxw was drunk and smoking while she sped to have sex with her AP. :-\


----------



## Daisy Etta

Zanne said:


> True.....but I am protecting him from more pain. The marriage was already essentially over. We had been sleeping in separate rooms for eight months before I even started talking to OM.
> 
> What I am doing is controlling the situation to ensure the least amount of fall out for everyone involved. I willingly admit to that.





> What I am doing is controlling the situation to ensure the least amount of fall out for *myself.* I willingly admit to that.


Fixed your post for you. :lol:


----------



## pidge70

Almostrecovered said:


> go on...kick it...you know you wanna...


OMG! That is the cutest puppy ever! I could never kick a puppy....I have some redeeming qualities.


----------



## pidge70

Wolf1974 said:


> Not true. Only if you don't accept the accountability for those choices is all
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have, thanks. I no longer am a cheater, nor do I drink. The other things, well, yeah.


----------



## cpacan

I think I'll have revenge beer on my wife, that'll teach her not to cheat.


----------



## Healer

Regret214 said:


> Yes, really. Is character only defined by people who cheat or don't?


Oh come now. There are plenty of things that define poor character. Cheating certainly being a big one!


----------



## vellocet

Healer said:


> Oh come now. There are plenty of things that define poor character. Cheating certainly being a big one!


Well if I get caught speeding, I blame the cop.


----------



## bandit.45

cpacan said:


> I think I'll have revenge beer on my wife, that'll teach her not to cheat.


Ooooooooooh. Man you're craaaazy......


----------



## vellocet

Daisy Etta said:


> Fixed your post for you. :lol:


Well to be fair, no matter how much I despise what Zanne did, she IS trying to do right by her x-husband.

In her thread she simply wants some sort of support for their child. She isn't asking for an arm and a leg and doesn't want to take him to court. She is trying to work it out with him just to help pay for the necessities to take care of their kid.

I even suggested an amount like $150 every 2 weeks and she seemed to think that was fair, and I'll admit, it should be more.

But she wants to work this out to be as painless as possible while trying to provide for their child. I admire her for that.


----------



## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> Then I am done. I want no part in helping a cheater learn how to better justify their infidelity or deceive their current spouse. That might not be Mr. Blounts intent. But he is naive if he thinks it will result in anything else.


The purpose of TAM is to help marriages. This thread is about fair treatment for all. which of those things do you disagree with?


----------



## IIJokerII

Regret214,

No one is IMO putting themselves on a pedestal. But they are pointing out that although speeding, drinking (Excessively) and Smoking, while dangerous and unhealthy, when practiced properly will not affect anyone else. 

No one complains when a keg party goes well and is under control or if you binge drink at home watching the game alone or smoke in you car alone while you travel. But I would question anyone who smoked, drank and sped in a car with children and their significant other in it. 

An affair cannot be governed properly nor isolated to just the one individual's inner battles and feelings to the one involved. An affair is a choice and with it has consequences that can last a lifetime. Honestly, nobody that has ever strayed must have thought how wonderful and happy their SO would be after and during an affair. If this was the case why hide it. All that is left is what the BS encounters on Dday. A remorseful WS who got fogged up on self rationalization for ones self need, or an entitled WS who feels as if they had the right to do what they did and only kept it a secret to prevent their BS from disrupting their comfortable lifestyle of cake eating. 

The cure all for this would be the reinstitution of faults in divorces. People would think twice before they ruined the lives' of other for their own personal self satisfaction.


----------



## Healer

Regret214 said:


> Exactly...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow. WOW. That's disturbing.


----------



## Healer

pidge70 said:


> God, I hope that is sarcasm.


Dripping with.


----------



## Regret214

Healer said:


> Wow. WOW. That's disturbing.


That you take my comment seriously is disturbing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

vellocet said:


> Well if I get caught speeding, I blame the cop.


LOL.


----------



## Healer

Regret214 said:


> That you take my comment seriously is disturbing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Uh huh.


----------



## pidge70

Healer said:


> Dripping with.


Good deal.


----------



## karole

vellocet said:


> Well to be fair, no matter how much I despise what Zanne did, she IS trying to do right by her x-husband.
> 
> In her thread she simply wants some sort of support for their child. She isn't asking for an arm and a leg and doesn't want to take him to court. She is trying to work it out with him just to help pay for the necessities to take care of their kid.
> 
> I even suggested an amount like $150 every 2 weeks and she seemed to think that was fair, and I'll admit, it should be more.
> 
> But she wants to work this out to be as painless as possible while trying to provide for their child. I admire her for that.


If she was trying to do right by her husband, she would tell him the truth, would file for divorce, or at least quit sneaking off for weekends away with her OM while she is still married.


----------



## soulpotato

Regret214 said:


> LOL...okay. So character is defined by cheating on this thread only.
> 
> Gotcha.
> 
> 
> 
> geesh.


TAM in general! And yes, because they have to ensure that they can keep calling us bad people and putting us down. If we broaden the basis of character judgment, it ruins that for them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

karole said:


> If she was trying to do right by her husband, she would tell him the truth, would file for divorce


I thought she was divorcing? Zanne?


----------



## doubletrouble

pidge70 said:


> I have, thanks. I no longer am a cheater, nor do I drink. The other things, well, yeah.


There is a line of thought on TAM that once a cheater, always a cheater. I've heard it likened to alcoholism and addiction (not saying you were ever either of those). 

It's surprising to see a former wayward not get called out on that here. Maybe this thread is having a positive effect, after all.


----------



## karole

vellocet said:


> I thought she was divorcing? Zanne?


She has not filed, her husband has not filed and the OM has not filed.


----------



## vellocet

soulpotato said:


> TAM in general! And yes, because they have to ensure that they can keep calling us bad people and putting us down. If we broaden the basis of character judgment, it ruins that for them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, it doesn't work by comparing misdemeanors or bad judgement calls that don't cause someone else great emotional pain, to cheating which does.

But nice try though :smthumbup:


----------



## vellocet

karole said:


> She has not filed, her husband has not filed and the OM has not filed.


If this is true Zanne, you need to get off the pot and file. Or if your H was here I could tell him he needs to.

Not sure why the sandbagging if what karole said is true, but I could have sworn, Zanne, that you were in the process.


----------



## Healer

soulpotato said:


> TAM in general! And yes, because they have to ensure that they can keep calling us bad people and putting us down. If we broaden the basis of character judgment, it ruins that for them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nice try.

ETA: I see Vellocet already gave you kudos for your nice try.


----------



## soulpotato

RWB said:


> Been there...
> 
> After finally discovering the truth about my fww, I did wield a mighty big hammer. Truth be told, during R I enjoyed the feeling of righteousness.
> 
> Let's look at the score card...
> 
> Me, 100% faithful for 30 years
> Her, 7 years, serial PA affairs
> 
> Compared to her, short of murder what could I do to screw up more than her... NOTHING! Not just righteous... almighty.
> 
> For a while, I sat up there on my high vantage, judging waywards I worked with or knew personally. My wife being 1st in line.
> 
> But, beating up on the B-Team loses its interest.


Since faithfulness is the only thing that matters on your "scorecard", you get off scot-free. Nice one. You could be the worst husband in the world, and yet all that would matter would be her infidelity. Phew.

If you're not interested in beating up on the "b-team", you're saying this to Regret because....?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

vellocet said:


> Sorry, it doesn't work by comparing misdemeanors or bad judgement calls that don't cause someone else great emotional pain, to cheating which does.
> 
> But nice try though :smthumbup:


Try, nothing. I'm not talking about her comparisons (which everyone has jumped all over, but whatever, only perfect phrasing will do with you lot), I'm talking in general. That's definitely the way it is here. Many BSs just want a reason to tear down any human being who has cheated, remorseful or not.

A lot of other things cause great emotional pain, some of which might be equivalent to the pain of being cheated on FOR SOME PEOPLE, but no one gives a sh1t about that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

soulpotato said:


> Since faithfulness is the only thing that matters on your "scorecard", you get off scot-free. Nice one. You could be the worst husband in the world, and yet all that would matter would be her infidelity. Phew.
> 
> If you're not interested in beating up on the "b-team", you're saying this to Regret because....?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is the "Coping with infidelity" forum. If you want to chastise people for their driving or icky habits, go to the "Coping with speeders" or "Dealing with loud chewers" forums. Although I doubt the emotional and psychological fallout and devastation will be as high over there. But you never know.


----------



## Regret214

soulpotato said:


> Since faithfulness is the only thing that matters on your "scorecard", you get off scot-free. Nice one. You could be the worst husband in the world, and yet all that would matter would be her infidelity. Phew.
> 
> If you're not interested in beating up on the "b-team", you're saying this to Regret because....?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I actually thought it was a good and insightful post. He's admitting that he did feel that sense of wielding a hammer of righteousness, but that it became dull to continue doing it. I don't know if RWB is in reconciliation or not, but he did reply using my terminology. I don't think there was anything else to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

soulpotato said:


> Try, nothing. I'm not talking about her comparisons (which everyone has jumped all over, but whatever, only perfect phrasing will do with you lot), I'm talking in general. That's definitely the way it is here. Many BSs just want a reason to tear down any human being who has cheated, remorseful or not.
> 
> A lot of other things cause great emotional pain, some of which might be equivalent to the pain of being cheated on FOR SOME PEOPLE, but no one gives a sh1t about that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again, you're posting in the "COPING WITH INFIDELITY" forum.

And I don't see BS on here claiming to be perfect. Nobody is perfect. We all know this. So what? 

The fact of the matter is really, really simple:

Cheating is one of the most horrible, treacherous, cruel things you can do to another human being. It causes emotional, psychological and oftentimes physical trauma that can last a lifetime, and the act that causes this is done intentionally, when there are other options. Not sure what's so hard to grasp about that.


----------



## soulpotato

I'm personally sick of holier-than-thou nonsense. If someone is a sh1tty human being, faithfulness does not pretty that up or excuse it. If someone cheats, that does not automatically make them a sh1tty human being.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

Turin74 said:


> Answering your question - children have best childhood in an environment of stable marriage. If one of the parents creates, (s)he destabilises the marriage for the sake of his/her selfish needs, depriving the child from that environment. Therefore (s)he IS a bad parent even if kids are not neglected (fed, educated, etc).
> 
> Once again, not attacking nor accusing you, please consider this response as abstract.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Following your logic... I leave my husband because he is a bad husband and he refuses to learn to be a better husband. Therefore, he is also a bad father because his neglect of the marriage caused the break up of the family home?


----------



## vellocet

soulpotato said:


> Since faithfulness is the only thing that matters on your "scorecard", you get off scot-free. Nice one. You could be the worst husband in the world, and yet all that would matter would be her infidelity. Phew.


Usually when someone hears of a faithful spouse being betrayed, let alone for 7 years with several physical affairs, they feel bad for the person.

Makes me wonder just how remorseful, if at all, most of these WSs feel. They may be in reconciliation, but oh if their BS that is working on the marriage with them only knew how they truly feel.


----------



## soulpotato

Regret214 said:


> I actually thought it was a good and insightful post. He's admitting that he did feel that sense of wielding a hammer of righteousness, but that it became dull to continue doing it. I don't know if RWB is in reconciliation or not, but he did reply using my terminology. I don't think there was anything else to it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm glad it didn't bother you. I'm feeling irritated with it all today. I need to go meditate before attempting to read any more of these posts, lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

soulpotato said:


> I'm personally sick of holier-than-thou nonsense. If someone is a sh1tty human being, faithfulness does not pretty that up or excuse it. If someone cheats, that does not automatically make them a sh1tty human being.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


+1
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

soulpotato said:


> I'm personally sick of holier-than-thou nonsense. If someone is a sh1tty human being, faithfulness does not pretty that up or excuse it.


First of all, you are assuming that the person was a sh!tty person to be cheated on. So why don't you just come out and say it? That RWB was somehow a sh!tty husband and he got what he deserved.




> If someone cheats, that does not automatically make them a sh1tty human being.


Ah, but its perfectly ok to assume that the person cheated ON, is??? How the F does that work?


----------



## vellocet

Regret214 said:


> I actually thought it was a good and insightful post. He's admitting that he did feel that sense of wielding a hammer of righteousness, but that it became dull to continue doing it. I don't know if RWB is in reconciliation or not, but he did reply using my terminology. I don't think there was anything else to it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well there you go, we can agree on some things.


----------



## Regret214

vellocet said:


> First of all, you are assuming that the person was a sh!tty person to be cheated on. So why don't you just come out and say it? That RWB was somehow a sh!tty husband and he got what he deserved.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, but its perfectly ok to assume that the person cheated ON, is??? How the F does that work?



I think you're reading her commentary wrong.

What I read is just because someone is faithful but a crappy person...They're still crap. I don't think she's saying RWB is that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

vellocet said:


> Usually when someone hears of a faithful spouse being betrayed, let alone for 7 years with several physical affairs, they feel bad for the person.
> 
> Makes me wonder just how remorseful, if at all, most of these WSs feel. They may be in reconciliation, but oh if their BS that is working on the marriage with them only knew how they truly feel.


What I am is fed up, vellocet. I'm angry right now. I see the idea on TAM over & over that BSs deserve compassion & sympathy, but fWSs don't. Anyway, the BSs get enough of that from everyone here. 

& to whatever you're implying - I was totally remorseful and worked my ass off. 

I say let the BSs know. Not sure why this keeps popping up as some sort of intimidation technique?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

soulpotato said:


> I'm personally sick of holier-than-thou nonsense. If someone is a sh1tty human being, faithfulness does not pretty that up or excuse it. If someone cheats, that does not automatically make them a sh1tty human being.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You do see the hypocrisy and irony in your statement, don't you?


----------



## soulpotato

Regret214 said:


> I think you're reading her commentary wrong.
> 
> What I read is just because someone is faithful but a crappy person...They're still crap. I don't think she's saying RWB is that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, Regret. Your interpretation is right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

Anon Pink said:


> Following your logic... I leave my husband because he is a bad husband and he refuses to learn to be a better husband. Therefore, he is also a bad father because his neglect of the marriage caused the break up of the family home?


Being a cheater isn't the only thing that makes for a bad parent. But it's certainly one of them.


----------



## Regret214

vellocet said:


> Well there you go, we can agree on some things.


That's because I can relate to RWB because Dig did much the same in the first year of our rebuilding. He's admitted that and to be honest, he coined that term hammer of righteousness with me since he plays World of Warcraft. 

He's moved past that this year and although he can still on occasion have an outburst of anger, it's nothing close to what it was that first year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

soulpotato said:


> Try, nothing. I'm not talking about her comparisons



You talked about the broadening the basis of character judgements. She broadened the basis of character judgements.

So yes, you were referring to her comparison, however indirectly it was done.




> Many BSs just want a reason to tear down any human being who has cheated, remorseful or not.


Sure, many do. Not going to argue that at all. Hell, I've done it from time to time, but also have gained respect for some WSs as well.




> A lot of other things cause great emotional pain, some of which might be equivalent to the pain of being cheated on FOR SOME PEOPLE, but no one gives a sh1t about that.


Your right. Once someone cheats on me, I don't give a sh!t about it. Prior to cheating, I'm all ears and care a great deal if I care about the person.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Regret214 said:


> That's because I can relate to RWB because Dig did much the same in the first year of our rebuilding. He's admitted that and to be honest, he coined that term hammer of righteousness with me since he plays World of Warcraft.
> 
> He's moved past that this year and although he can still on occasion have an outburst of anger, it's nothing close to what it was that first year.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


tell him I think he's a girly betaman

he'll like that


----------



## soulpotato

Sorry, guys. I want to apologize. What I'm really angry/hurt about is my BS not trying. I just realized it. I was having a conversation with someone about her right before I started reading and posting on this thread. I didn't mean to take it out on anyone. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

Almostrecovered said:


> tell him I think he's a girly betaman
> 
> he'll like that


LOL. Yes, AR. I will most certainly relay that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

Regret214 said:


> I think you're reading her commentary wrong.
> 
> What I read is just because someone is faithful but a crappy person...They're still crap. I don't think she's saying RWB is that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh no, I don't believe many people would be stupid enough to just come right out and say it. Therefore they put it in general terms while having the person to whom they were in dialog with in mind.

She responded to RWB about him being 100% faithful and that is the only scorecard he keeps.

Then posts right after about how being faithful doesn't absolve anyone of being crappy.


----------



## Almostrecovered

and Happy Anniversary you two
hope it was rife with hysterical bonding


----------



## Regret214

Almostrecovered said:


> and Happy Anniversary you two
> hope it was rife with hysterical bonding


It was nice to get flowers, but since he works nights, we had to put hysterical bonding off until tonight. 

And tomorrow.

And Saturday morning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

soulpotato said:


> What I am is fed up, vellocet. I'm angry right now. I see the idea on TAM over & over that BSs deserve compassion & sympathy, but fWSs don't.


WSs deserve compassion and sympathy as far as I'm concerned.

Unless they want to blame their BS and have an entitled to cheat attitude.


----------



## vellocet

Regret214 said:


> That's because I can relate to RWB because Dig did much the same in the first year of our rebuilding. He's admitted that and to be honest, he coined that term hammer of righteousness with me since he plays World of Warcraft.
> 
> He's moved past that this year and although he can still on occasion have an outburst of anger, it's nothing close to what it was that first year.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well I hope you two are doing well.

If I may ask, what do his outbursts look like and what is it that triggers him?

And what do you do when he has these triggers?

And if you don't want to answer, that's fine, I understand.


----------



## xakulax




----------



## IIJokerII

Healer said:


> Did that make you feel better about yourself?





soulpotato said:


> I'm personally sick of holier-than-thou nonsense. If someone is a sh1tty human being, faithfulness does not pretty that up or excuse it. If someone cheats, that does not automatically make them a sh1tty human being.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Although this is true to a degree I can't remember the last time that I beat the dog out of the blue for being himself and occasionally pissing on the floor from time to time and then chided him for being his fault. "you made me beat you"!! If only you had learned how to talk or use the bathroom this would've never happened!!"

After a while I guess I'd have no reason to wonder why he growls or flinches at me when I approach him. Especially since I wanted another dog that had apparently more enduring qualities.


----------



## Zanne

Mr Blunt said:


> Well we have a least one WS posting here. I do not know if Zane feels safe or is able to take a punch as good as Mohammed Ali but she is still posting!


I feel safe - I can be brave on an anonymous forum, but I lack courage in some areas of my life. However, sometimes I don't post because, what's the point? Haters are going to hate. And I definitely have haters. And that detracts from the OP's intent of a thread and then it gets locked and people are banned, hurt feelings all around, etc. 



Mr Blunt said:


> Zane’s post above reiterates something I have heard before. The first thing is that the BS had many years of bad behavior then realized it and tried to make it up for several years. Those make up years were rejected by Zane and she decided to have an affair. Zanes says that she is totally responsible for the affair.


"Decided to have an affair" Hmmm..... when I read that it's like I decided to jump out of a plane. I don't ever remember making a decision to cheat, weighing the pros and cons and such. I remember at a certain point saying to myself that maybe I shouldn't answer his 3rd PM but I figured my answer was innocuous and I went forward from there, each step justified. I'm not saying that I just fell into an affair either. I honestly can't excuse my thinking at all. But I do see myself moving forward in a way that tries to legitimize it. At a certain point, that becomes the focus, my purpose. Otherwise it's just a dirty little affair, isn't it?



Mr Blunt said:


> What can we learn from this?[/B]
> 
> *Would Zane or other WSs not have an affair if the BS would NOT have had 22 years of “bad behavior”?
> 
> When a spouse has many years of “bad behavior” is it then impossible for the other spouse to accept the make up years and get the marriage back on a better relationship?*
> 
> Zane wants out and her husband does not. This is very sad as another marriage is broken but what can we learn from Zane?
> 
> I will say this; Zane seems to be very open about her situation and she can take a punch as strong as George Foremen can give and she still posts.


Knowing what I do now about relationships and feelings and intent, etc., I have tried to imagine the possibility of R with my husband and it just doesn't compute. There are so many ways that H is the wrong partner for me. I feel bad that we both missed out on a satisfying marriage. We both still have a chance to experience that in our lifetime. Just not with each other.



Mr Blunt said:


> Zane is trying to protect her husband from more pain and to ensure the least amount of fall out for everyone involved by not being open and honest and using lies and deception.
> 
> Are there any WS or BS people out there that have tried this method? *For those that have gone through this method of Zanes, what can you tell us about the outcome?*


A few points of clarification: my husband knows about OM. We had a horrendous DDay, he made me tell the kids, ALL of our family and friends know, etc. But I took everything underground after that. And knowing how much hurt it caused my own family, I keep encouraging OM to do the same. Some days he will say that he doesn't care if she (OMW) finds out anymore.

The other side of not being honest is because my husband has a temper. He acts before he thinks. He would love to know OM's identity. He still talks about it. But I look at things in a big picture way. I analyze and think things over. If I am with OM someday, which I truly want, then how would we deal with events like graduations and weddings? It gets complicated.

So yes, bottom line is, in order to avoid all of these conflicts and troubles, do not have an affair, even if your marriage is in crisis or ending. Unless you really don't have a conscience. If that's the case, who is stopping you?


----------



## Regret214

vellocet said:


> Well I hope you two are doing well.
> 
> If I may ask, what do his outbursts look like and what is it that triggers him?
> 
> And what do you do when he has these triggers?
> 
> And if you don't want to answer, that's fine, I understand.


His outbursts can be either outright anger, where he is upset for about 5-10 minutes. He doesn't yell, it can just be venomous. Other times he's absolutely quiet.

When he triggers, the first thing I do is let it happen. I don't speak unless he asks me a direct question. When it passes, I do my best to reassure him how absolutely sorry I am for causing his pain. I let him know I'm here for him 100% and that I'll never hurt him again.

As for what triggers him, it varies. The last thing had to do with a commercial for the new film "Sex Tape". It was the commercial where they're being made fun of by one of their friends saying "who has sex for 3 hours? That's Lincoln! That's the movie Lincoln!". Well, that set him off in a very hurtful way because one of the times I met with the xOM, I was gone for 3 hours. Triggers can happen anytime and anywhere. We've got a pretty good system to deal with them, but it certainly doesn't make them easy whatsoever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

Regret214 said:


> His outbursts can be either outright anger, where he is upset for about 5-10 minutes. He doesn't yell, it can just be venomous.
> 
> When he triggers, the first thing I do is let it happen. I don't speak unless he asks me a direct question. When it passes, I do my best to reassure him how absolutely sorry I am for causing his pain. I let him know I'm here for him 100% and that I'll never hurt him again.


And if I were to have stayed with someone that cheated on me, this is what I'd expect. If I vent, let it happen with a reassurance afterwards. If Dig is anything like me(aside from not staying with someone who cheated), then I'm sure this works for him and appreciates the way you handle it. Kudos.


----------



## Served Cold

soulpotato said:


> I'm personally sick of holier-than-thou nonsense. If someone is a sh1tty human being, faithfulness does not pretty that up or excuse it. If someone cheats, that does not automatically make them a sh1tty human being.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Nine out ten times the person who is the affair partner is even less perfect than the spouse they're cheating on.

go figure....


----------



## Healer

Served Cold said:


> Nine out ten times the person who is the affair partner is even less perfect than the spouse they're cheating on.
> 
> go figure....


Well yes, they're screwing someone else's spouse. Of course that doesn't automatically make them a sh!tty person.


----------



## Zanne

Mr. Dee said:


> Nope, no way, I can in all honesty say that at no time during or after my affair did I ever think that I was missing anything from my W, or that my xAP was meeting any needs that W didn't for me. xAP believed she was, but she wasn't. My cheating was 100% something wrong with me and 0% anything wrong with my W or my marriage. The only thing wrong with my marriage was me.


Mr. Dee, respectfully, that is your experience. But this site is full of marriages with 50/50 blame.

I get a lot of my needs met from other sources besides my husband and I always have. I was even encouraged on this site to fill my need for conversation (ref Dr. Harley's Emotional Needs) by going out with girlfriends.

Do you know what it comes down to? My husband is a paycheck to me. And I told him so in an argument and I very much regret that because it really hurt him. But it's the sad truth. We actually argued our top emotional needs in MC for several sessions. What a waste of time.

In my case, OM does meet all of my top emotional needs. It makes walking away from him really difficult.


----------



## Served Cold

Strange how a WS will find fault with the betrayed spouse but not really see the affair partner in real light. 

Any man or woman who is fine being a cheater or being with a cheater has balls to talk smack about "holier than thou".

SMH....


----------



## Zanne

Thundarr said:


> I like success stories. Whether it's reconciliation or whether it's being a better spouse for the next partner. Either way the key is to not make the same mistakes or similar mistakes over and over. There's a world of difference between bad choices leading to growth versus a life time pattern of bad choices to repeat.


This post means a lot to me. I truly believe this. I can't be the one to make this point because of where I am at, but thank you, Thundarr, for pointing out that R is not the only solution.


----------



## vellocet

Zanne said:


> Mr. Dee, respectfully, that is your experience. But this site is full of marriages with 50/50 blame.
> 
> I get a lot of my needs met from other sources besides my husband and I always have. I was even encouraged on this site to fill my need for conversation (ref Dr. Harley's Emotional Needs) by going out with girlfriends.
> 
> Do you know what it comes down to? My husband is a paycheck to me. And I told him so in an argument and I very much regret that because it really hurt him. But it's the sad truth. We actually argued our top emotional needs in MC for several sessions. What a waste of time.
> 
> In my case, OM does meet all of my top emotional needs. It makes walking away from him really difficult.


Wow, really? Wow.

Ok, so bottom line, are you in the process of setting your husband free?


----------



## Faeleaf

I have never cheated, though my first husband cheated on me several times. I have also been witness to several affairs in my friends' and families' marriages. So I feel like I have the perspective necessary to say this.

If you are a cheater, you are not _only_ a cheater. That is only a part of you who you are. And I am certain of this - the whole of you, the entirety of your story, has tremendous value. It should be told, and it should be accepted, understood, absorbed. It is important. No part of your perspective, no part of your experience, should be shouted down because it hurts to hear.

There is a tendency (and I don't accuse anyone here, just mentioning a trend I see in my life) for BS's, in their pain, to lose the ability to truly listen to, and feel empathy for, their spouse. In my opinion (yes, as a BS myself) this is a unfortunate trend. Human nature, yes indeed. But it does not serve us well. We lose so much when we listen to only our own side of the story.

Longfellow once wrote,_ "If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we would find there enough sorrow and suffering to disarm all hostility."_ This is nowhere as true as in marriages, when one spouse has dealt a terrible blow to your heart and to the union. There is a secret history here that still needs to be read. Sorrow and suffering, and yes, wrongs on both sides that should be admitted, addressed, and forgiven. 

But we miss all of this in our rush to nominate ourselves to sainthood, in our frantic hurry to build around ourselves a protective wall of absolutes, as if ignoring our own shortcomings, or reciting thin maxims like "There is no excuse for cheating" can shield us from pain or future harm. 

They can't. We're on this ride for good now, all of us together. My grandmother liked to say, _"Small kitchen, sharp elbows"_ as a way of explaining that humans hurt each other, regardless of our intentions to do otherwise. I've done my share of jabbing, and who can say if I've been harmed more then I've harmed others? Or how would trying to maintain such a tally ever help me?


----------



## Healer

Zanne said:


> Mr. Dee, respectfully, that is your experience. But this site is full of marriages with 50/50 blame.
> 
> I get a lot of my needs met from other sources besides my husband and I always have. I was even encouraged on this site to fill my need for conversation (ref Dr. Harley's Emotional Needs) by going out with girlfriends.
> 
> Do you know what it comes down to? My husband is a paycheck to me. And I told him so in an argument and I very much regret that because it really hurt him. But it's the sad truth. We actually argued our top emotional needs in MC for several sessions. What a waste of time.
> 
> In my case, OM does meet all of my top emotional needs. It makes walking away from him really difficult.


No...words...


----------



## karole

Zanne said:


> Mr. Dee, respectfully, that is your experience. But this site is full of marriages with 50/50 blame.
> 
> I get a lot of my needs met from other sources besides my husband and I always have. I was even encouraged on this site to fill my need for conversation (ref Dr. Harley's Emotional Needs) by going out with girlfriends.
> 
> Do you know what it comes down to? My husband is a paycheck to me. And I told him so in an argument and I very much regret that because it really hurt him. But it's the sad truth. We actually argued our top emotional needs in MC for several sessions. What a waste of time.
> 
> In my case, OM does meet all of my top emotional needs. It makes walking away from him really difficult.


OMG!


----------



## Wolf1974

Faeleaf said:


> I have never cheated, though my first husband cheated on me several times. I have also been witness to several affairs in my friends' and families' marriages. So I feel like I have the perspective necessary to say this.
> 
> If you are a cheater, you are not _only_ a cheater. That is only a part of you who you are. And I am certain of this - the whole of you, the entirety of your story, has tremendous value. It should be told, and it should be accepted, understood, absorbed. It is important. No part of your perspective, no part of your experience, should be shouted down because it hurts to hear.
> 
> *There is a tendency (and I don't accuse anyone here, just mentioning a trend I see in my life) for BS's, in their pain, to lose the ability to truly listen to, and feel empathy for, their spouse. In my opinion (yes, as a BS myself) this is a unfortunate trend. Human nature, yes indeed. But it does not serve us well. We lose so much when we listen to only our own side of the story.*
> 
> Longfellow once wrote,_ "If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we would find there enough sorrow and suffering to disarm all hostility."_ This is nowhere as true as in marriages, when one spouse has dealt a terrible blow to your heart and to the union. There is a secret history here that still needs to be read. Sorrow and suffering, and yes, wrongs on both sides that should be admitted, addressed, and forgiven.
> 
> But we miss all of this in our rush to nominate ourselves to sainthood, in our frantic hurry to build around ourselves a protective wall of absolutes, as if ignoring our own shortcomings, or reciting thin maxims like "There is no excuse for cheating" can shield us from pain or future harm.
> 
> They can't. We're on this ride for good now, all of us together. My grandmother liked to say, _"Small kitchen, sharp elbows"_ as a way of explaining that humans hurt each other, regardless of our intentions to do otherwise. I've done my share of jabbing, and who can say if I've been harmed more then I've harmed others? Or how would trying to maintain such a tally ever help me?



I could go with this notion but what would I listen to or have empathy for just out of curiosity ?


----------



## Zanne

jld said:


> I think Zanne is handling all this amazingly well.
> 
> Karole looks at this through the eyes of a child affected by her mother's affair. Vell looks at this as the former husband of a serial cheater. Mr. Blunt, in my opinion, looks at this through compassion and wisdom earned through hard experience.
> 
> Zanne, I think you are just spent. You said you are just done, and I believe that. You probably felt starved for years. I bet you did try to communicate that for years, and your spouse just could not meet the need. Now everyone is crying for him. Who was crying for you all those years?
> 
> We can sit here and argue this backwards and forwards, and judge without end. Or we can acknowledge that humans are not going to go forever without their needs met, however illegitimately we judge them to be meeting them.
> 
> Some people simply do not have the predisposition to cheat. I don't think they ever would, just like some people would never smoke or take drugs or steal. It is just not a temptation at all to some people. And makes it so easy for them to judge. Effortless, really.
> 
> I think "wayward" spouses are also "betrayed" spouses. And they carry all the guilt and shame society (or TAM) wants to heap on them. And the "betrayed" ones so often wrap themselves in the cloak of righteousness. Safer that way, I guess. Who wants to accept responsibility if they do not have to?
> 
> Someday maybe we will be able to look at all this in very practical, realistic terms, and just speak the language of meeting people's needs. Until then, I guess there will just be one "right" spouse and one "wrong" spouse.


To be honest, JLD, I did not communicate my issues or unhappiness in the right way. There was a lot of passive aggressive behavior going on between us. Stupid childish games and power struggles. Same for OM's marriage. My husband's temper played a big part for me, a deal breaker eventually.


----------



## vellocet

Faeleaf said:


> There is a tendency (and I don't accuse anyone here, just mentioning a trend I see in my life) for BS's, in their pain, to lose the ability to truly listen to, and feel empathy for, their spouse.



That tendency is there because the WS gave us one hell of a mind movie to torment us over and over again.

And I'm sorry, but I'm not going to have empathy for anyone that would blame me for their decision to cheat.  Not happening.

Now can I forgive someone for cheating? Sure. But I'm leaving them just the same.




> But we miss all of this in our rush to nominate ourselves to sainthood


No declaration of sainthood here. One need not think they are perfect to despise an act like cheating.




> in our frantic hurry to build around ourselves a protective wall of absolutes, as if ignoring our own shortcomings, or reciting thin maxims like "There is no excuse for cheating" can shield us from pain or future harm.
> 
> They can't.


Sure they can. It just depends on how someone proceeds with building those walls.

If you build these walls to which you refer and still desire a committed relationship, then I feel you are absolutely correct. 

If you build these walls and decide you are done with commitment, like me, it serves me very well.

And please don't think I'm dismissing your opinion. I get what you are saying. But the "not feeling empathy for a WS" to which you refer, for me, is not to be extended to the blameshifters and those that feel entitled to cheat.


----------



## lordmayhem

Zanne said:


> Mr. Dee, respectfully, that is your experience. But this site is full of marriages with 50/50 blame.
> 
> I get a lot of my needs met from other sources besides my husband and I always have. I was even encouraged on this site to fill my need for conversation (ref Dr. Harley's Emotional Needs) by going out with girlfriends.
> 
> Do you know what it comes down to? My husband is a paycheck to me. And I told him so in an argument and I very much regret that because it really hurt him. But it's the sad truth. We actually argued our top emotional needs in MC for several sessions. What a waste of time.
> 
> In my case, OM does meet all of my top emotional needs. It makes walking away from him really difficult.


I don't get angry all that often anymore when I read threads, but this........:cussing:

I'll just have to add you to my ignore list and never click on this thread again before I get banned again.


----------



## soulpotato

vellocet said:


> You talked about the broadening the basis of character judgements. She broadened the basis of character judgements.
> 
> So yes, you were referring to her comparison, however indirectly it was done.


You're making an incorrect connection. You can't see the thoughts in my head, but I was actually off on a tangent. No matter. You'll think whatever you want, regardless of my input.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> 
> What can we learn from this?[/B]
> 
> Would Zane or other WSs not have an affair if the BS would NOT have had 22 years of “bad behavior”?
> 
> When a spouse has many years of “bad behavior” is it then impossible for the other spouse to accept the make up years and get the marriage back on a better relationship?
> 
> Zane wants out and her husband does not. This is very sad as another marriage is broken but what can we learn from Zane?
> 
> I will say this; Zane seems to be very open about her situation and she can take a punch as strong as George Foremen can give and she still posts.
> 
> *BY ZANE*
> Knowing what I do now about relationships and feelings and intent, etc., *I have tried to imagine the possibility of R with my husband and it just doesn't compute. There are so many ways that H is the wrong partner for me*. I feel bad that we both missed out on a satisfying marriage. We both still have a chance to experience that in our lifetime. Just not with each other.



Thanks Zane for your answer. As for my first question, what I get from your post is that if your husband did not have any bad behavior for 22 years then it would not be the determining factor because your husband “…is the wrong partner for me”


My second question is somewhat moot because you have already stated that your husband has “…so many ways that H is the wrong partner for me” Therefore the make up years that your husband did is a moot point.

Based upon what you have stated I conclude that “bad behavior and make up actions are not the determining factor in the break up of a marriage but the spouse’s ways is what determines the partner wrong for marriage. You have not stated what those ways are but that is your prerogative to not specify.

*Is this what we can learn from your situation? Did I conclude right?*


----------



## xakulax

Zanne said:


> Mr. Dee, respectfully, that is your experience. But this site is full of marriages with 50/50 blame.
> 
> I get a lot of my needs met from other sources besides my husband and I always have. I was even encouraged on this site to fill my need for conversation (ref Dr. Harley's Emotional Needs) by going out with girlfriends.
> 
> Do you know what it comes down to? My husband is a paycheck to me. And I told him so in an argument and I very much regret that because it really hurt him. But it's the sad truth. We actually argued our top emotional needs in MC for several sessions. What a waste of time.
> 
> In my case, OM does meet all of my top emotional needs. It makes walking away from him really difficult.




Zanne If I may ask wouldn't it be much easier for you and your husband to just have an open marriage


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> And this is what I want to drive home, again for the lurking waywards, had my x admitted and told me about the affair and the real reason she was leaving I may have been able to forgive her but I I wouldn't have stayed married because she broke her vows. However The fact that she lied repeatedly and deceived both me and our children is the reason I never will.


Please understand that I'm not trying to pick on you or anything of the sort. But there is another aspect of all this, namely your ex's feelings in the situation. And please understand that I know nothing about your situation other than what you've written here.

The thing is that she may not care if you forgive her or not. Doing it the way she did clearly was easier for her and that may be all that mattered to her.

Did any of us ask Zanne why she's doing things the way she is? Clearly she considers her marriage over and she's doing what she thinks is the easiest thing. I'd love to know her reasoning. I'd also love to know your ex's reasoning too.


----------



## SteveK

3putt said:


> Of course it doesn't make her a bad parent, at least under these circumstances it would seem. What it does do though is teach these kids by example that this kind of behavior is normal and acceptable in a family.
> 
> Not sure I (or anyone else for that matter) would want to be setting this kind of example as acceptable behavior for children to later emulate.
> 
> And they more than likely will, as it's all they know.


For those that know my Stitch my WW had a mother who always responded to problems with her husband by having affairs. Her longest one being discovered by her youngest daughter who looked up to her like a saint...
This youngest daughter grew up to be my WW!

So I 100% agree with 3putt's observation!


----------



## karole

xakulax said:


> Zanne If I may ask wouldn't it be much easier for you and your husband to just have an open marriage


She is having an open marriage, she just failed to inform her husband of that fact.


----------



## soulpotato

Served Cold said:


> Nine out ten times the person who is the affair partner is even less perfect than the spouse they're cheating on.
> 
> go figure....


That's right. What I truly wanted was my original/actual partner, not an AP. My partner had issues that affected us very much, just as I obviously do, yet she wouldn't see them or get help for them. I'm very flawed, too, and I see I need help. For love of her, I entered therapy over 1.5 years ago. I remain in therapy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lovemytruck

Zanne said:


> Mr. Dee, respectfully, that is your experience. But this site is full of marriages with 50/50 blame.
> 
> I get a lot of my needs met from other sources besides my husband and I always have. I was even encouraged on this site to fill my need for conversation (ref Dr. Harley's Emotional Needs) by going out with girlfriends.
> 
> Do you know what it comes down to? My husband is a paycheck to me. And I told him so in an argument and I very much regret that because it really hurt him. But it's the sad truth. We actually argued our top emotional needs in MC for several sessions. What a waste of time.
> 
> In my case, OM does meet all of my top emotional needs. It makes walking away from him really difficult.


Zanne,

I give you credit for being painfully honest. It helps us understand the role of a BH in some cases. It hurts to know your husband was similar to us.

This gives us fuel for the old "kick 'em to the curb" approach.

Regret mentioned yesterday about many that advocate D. This is why I usually do. The reality for many of us is that we are merely a paycheck for a wh0re. No offense by using a bad word. *It is not YOU or anyone on TAM.* It is an introspection that we go through after our beloved has betrayed.

I see BSs who mirror myself, and I see WSs who mirror the comments above. This is the source of the venom. We are relegated to sacrificing for the person that sells us out.


----------



## xakulax

karole said:


> She is having an open marriage, she just failed to inform her husband of that fact.


It would appear so.. i'm done here this thread has banned potential written all over it


----------



## sidney2718

staystrong said:


> Really? Wayward spouses are betrayed spouses.
> 
> I suppose you are trying to illustrate a point, but my guess is very few waywards are betrayed by neglect, abuse, etc. Not in my own experience. Most of the ones I've seen were either weak or entitled, or lack proper boundaries. Human frailty or poor character.


I take your point, but in my experience many waywards come from marriages where they feel a lack of affection, or a lack of respect, or feel bullied. And some have more than one factor involved.



> I'm just rooting for Zanne to tell her husband sooner rather than later. If he finds out later, he will hate her guts even more.


I'm puzzled by one thing in Zanne's story. Why has she not filed for divorce? Her husband expects that and she wants that. Why the delay?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *Originally Posted by Mr. Blunt *
> Zane is trying to protect her husband from more pain and to ensure the least amount of fall out for everyone involved by not being open and honest and using lies and deception.
> 
> *Are there any WS or BS people out there that have tried this method? For those that have gone through this method of Zanes, what can you tell us about the outcome?*


Here below are a few of the poster’s replies that addressed the question in bold above:



> *By Matt Matt*
> Yes. Me. As it happens, to some extent.
> 
> My wife's husband was dying -long-term health problem- and we were very discrete.
> 
> *He actually encouraged her to have an affair and we got married a "decent" interval after his death.
> 
> Been together 25 years, now.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *By Pluto2*
> My ex was a serial cheater who used lies and deception to manipulate the situation, much the same way Zanne is using lies to manipulate her H and arrange sufficient financial support for herself before filing (facts from her previous thread). Zanne asserts that no children are involved (which means that her children are unaware of her infidelity-again facts from her thread). My children were forced to learn of their father's betrayal by his own carelessness.
> 
> *There was, and remains, no circumstances under which I would ever take him back.* He remains completely non-apologetic for his infidelity and his betrayals, and non-remorseful for the pain he inflicted on me or my children, which he has essentially abandoned.
> 
> Frankly, Mr. Blount, I thought that providing support for active cheaters was against TAM policy. Aren't there already cheater sites out there?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *By Next Time Around*
> 
> Nigella Lawson's dying 1st husband encouraged her and Saatchi to get together..... while Saatchi was still married as well.
> 
> *15 years together later they split up*. Under which column would that statistic go?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Originally Posted by Zanne *
> He suspects that I am still in contact with OM and recently went as far to say that he wants me to be honest with him when I disappear for weekends with "friends," but I just don't think that he can handle it. I wish that we could all be honest with each other and I hate the lies and deception.
> 
> 
> *BY Mr Dee*
> I once thought like you but I see now I could NOT have been more wrong. Me and xOW told ourselves my W knows and just pretends not to. *I told myself I was only keeping secret to protect my W*. As the A lengthened, my W had fears and often begged me to always tell her the truth. I lied.
> 
> In reality, W never knew. She really thought I was someone who could never do that to her. She would never have been able to "pretend not to know". How could I have thought that? I think now that I must have been somebody else! As for protecting my W, (obviously just being with xAP means I wasn't), *but the lying absolutely made it a billion times worse for W.* She has PTSD so bad from what I did, and often admits to me that thinking about *my lies is far more crushing to her than thinking about my acts.*
> 
> If you hate the lies and deception, just tell him the truth. It is a much more stress free way to live, for both of you. Just sit him down and say, "I've done the worst thing to you, and you'll probably divorce me and I deserve it, but you deserve to know...". That's how I did it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *BY Wolf1974*
> Not just them but her kids to. Because then the focus of the kids go from "hey mom and dad couldn't get along so they divorced" to hey mom cheated and they got divorced.
> 
> My feeling is since her husband already suspects he will find out eventually and then it's game over for any amicable separation and divorce. It's game over for acting civilly for years to come at the kids events. It's game over for looking like the moral parent because if the continued lying and deceit. *I lived this and watched all my mutual and many of my x wives friends turn from her cause of the affair which again could have been handled differently had she chose to. But he dumped her too so now she is mostly alone*
> 
> I know. And I get that. But since this was set up for the lurking waywards, the ones reading but not posting, *maybe they can see at least one example of how deception turned worse than trying to hide pain from someone*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *By DoubleTrouble*
> When I found out about my fWW's PA and confronted her, it was nearly two and a half years afterwards. It hurt like hell.
> 
> She said the reason she hadn't told me was to not hurt my feelings. *Later she admitted she was only protecting herself. I added that she was also protecting OM.*
> 
> *
> Knowing all the lies surrounding the affair added a whole 'nother dimension to the pain.*



*Thank you posters fro addressing the question because I think it can help someone.*


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> Zanne is
> 
> 
> When she makes statements that's she is cheating behind her spouses back to spare him further pain that is justifying. Or do you mean others coming here telling her she is doing the right thing?


Who has told her she is doing the right thing?


----------



## Healer

Gawd, where do I start...



Faeleaf said:


> ...the whole of you, the entirety of your story, has tremendous value. It should be told, and it should be accepted, understood, absorbed.


Cruel, deceitful, loathsome behavior that crushed someone else's soul and ripped out their heart should be accepted? You accept it all you want, but don't presume to tell me I should. I didn't, and never will. Why should abhorrent behavior be accepted, pray tell?




Faeleaf said:


> Sorrow and suffering, and yes, wrongs on both sides that should be admitted, addressed, and forgiven.


Where do you get off assuming there were wrongs on both sides? How do you know that? I think we all (well, _most_ of us) can agree that cheating is wrong - therefore it's agreed that the cheater has done wrong. How do you know the BS has done wrong? You don't. Presumptuous. 



Faeleaf said:


> But we miss all of this in our rush to nominate ourselves to sainthood, in our frantic hurry to build around ourselves a protective wall of absolutes, as if ignoring our own shortcomings, or reciting thin maxims like "There is no excuse for cheating" can shield us from pain or future harm.


How does me not accepting my spouse's infidelity, being disgusted by her cheating, equal me nominating myself to sainthood?? I don't recall any BS on this site ever claiming to be perfect or a saint. Where do you get this from? You're just making stuff up as you go along.



Faeleaf said:


> We're on this ride for good now, all of us together.


Nope, I'm divorcing my WW, so we are, by definition, NOT in this together.


----------



## karole

sidney2718 said:


> I take your point, but in my experience many waywards come from marriages where they feel a lack of affection, or a lack of respect, or feel bullied. And some have more than one factor involved.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm puzzled by one thing in Zanne's story. Why has she not filed for divorce? Her husband expects that and she wants that. Why the delay?


She has no job, no car, and no other living arrangements. As she stated earlier, her husband is paycheck.


----------



## 3putt

sidney2718 said:


> I'm puzzled by one thing in Zanne's story. Why has she not filed for divorce? Her husband expects that and she wants that. Why the delay?


Here you go...



Zanne said:


> *Do you know what it comes down to? My husband is a paycheck to me. *And I told him so in an argument and I very much regret that because it really hurt him. But it's the sad truth. We actually argued our top emotional needs in MC for several sessions. What a waste of time.


Disgusting.


----------



## Healer

xakulax said:


> Zanne If I may ask wouldn't it be much easier for you and your husband to just have an open marriage


They do, her husband just doesn't know about it.


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> And don't fool yourself trying to turn the whole fallible argument onto others, I have been tempted to cheat. But I said no where my x said yes. It's about the choices we make in those moments , the low ones, that matter.


And I'm here because I'd love to know why your x said yes and why other cheaters did what they did.

And I don't accept the notion that the explanation is simply that they are evil creatures.


----------



## sandc

xakulax said:


> It would appear so.. i'm done here this thread has banned potential written all over it


Run silent, run deep, akula.

I'll be in your baffles doing the same.


----------



## sidney2718

Mr. Dee said:


> Nope, no way, I can in all honesty say that at no time during or after my affair did I ever think that I was missing anything from my W, or that my xAP was meeting any needs that W didn't for me. xAP believed she was, but she wasn't. My cheating was 100% something wrong with me and 0% anything wrong with my W or my marriage. The only thing wrong with my marriage was me.


Can you tell us why then did you have an affair?


----------



## sidney2718

BetrayedDad said:


> And have you truely accepted 100% accountability for your past adulterous actions?
> 
> Because when you are morally comparing smoking (which last I checked is still legal) with engaging in an affair, that pretty much tells everyone clearly that you haven't.
> 
> Sorry, the "you're not perfect either because of x, y and z" is textbook blame shifting.


I'm sorry. My central processing unit suffered from a logic failure. Discussing what traits define perfection is not related to textbook blame shifting. 

Logic unit failure. Shutting down n


----------



## sidney2718

3putt said:


> You really think he would agree that someone who speeds, smokes, or drinks has the same character flaws as someone who cheats??
> 
> Okay.


Here we go again. Nobody equated cheating with speeds, smokes, or drinks. The clear point was that the perfect person does NONE of these things. The perfect person does not cheat, speed, smoke, or drink or engage in a myriad of other imperfect behaviors.

These are all character flaws. No two of them are the SAME character flaw.


----------



## Regret214

sidney2718 said:


> Here we go again. Nobody equated cheating with speeds, smokes, or drinks. The clear point was that the perfect person does NONE of these things. The perfect person does not cheat, speed, smoke, or drink or engage in a myriad of other imperfect behaviors.
> 
> These are all character flaws. No two of them are the SAME character flaw.


Dig? Did you create another identity?? LOL

Just kidding! The CPU failure comments and this one just echo some of his phrasing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

Regret214 said:


> Yes, I've accepted 100% accountability.
> 
> Now, let's look at what you wrote and think about it for a minute. Because I wrote something that wasn't perfectly written and my comparisons are far from stellar, you immediately question my accountability without knowing thing one about what has gone on in my home. You have no clue as to how hard I have worked to make things right with Dig. You have no clue as to the lengths I've gone to because of my actions.
> 
> Questioned all because I didn't make a point succinctly.


Your point was clear enough. The problem is that many folks, often including me, read a person's post to say what we want it to say, not what it does say.

And I want to thank you for taking the time and trouble to post in this thread. I'm sorry that I never knew Dig -- I came to TAM too late for that. But I've been told by many that he was a straightforward decent guy and I think that you are each lucky to have the other.


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> I'm sorry. My central processing unit suffered from a logic failure. Discussing what traits define perfection is not related to textbook blame shifting.
> 
> Logic unit failure. Shutting down n


If your processing unit didn't get what he was saying, I reckon it's time for a trade in.


----------



## Regret214

Thank you Sidney. That's very kind of you to say. Yes, he was quite straight forward with both betrayed and wayward posters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lenzi

Zanne said:


> Do you know what it comes down to? My husband is a paycheck to me.
> 
> In my case, OM does meet all of my top emotional needs. It makes walking away from him really difficult.


Folks, this is why people should really consider things carefully before they marry. Especially if you're the breadwinner.

This poster makes it clear, beyond the shadow of a doubt- that there are users out there that will take you for your money and give you nothing back but grief, and not give it a second thought because, hey, they didn't force the guy to marry them, it was his choice and now she reaps the benefits of his poor choices. 

I'm not saying she's wrong, or unethical, or morally deficient in some way. I'm simply saying that she's not alone. There are plenty more where she came from. 

It's a jungle out there. 

Tread carefully.


----------



## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> Oh no, nobody has on this thread. I was speaking of the usual crap we hear on the site in general.


We must hang out in different groups.


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> I'm sorry. My central processing unit suffered from a logic failure. Discussing what traits define perfection is not related to textbook blame shifting.
> 
> Logic unit failure. Shutting down n


Why don't you just halt and catch fire?


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> Here we go again. Nobody equated cheating with speeds, smokes, or drinks. The clear point was that the perfect person does NONE of these things. The perfect person does not cheat, speed, smoke, or drink or engage in a myriad of other imperfect behaviors.
> 
> These are all character flaws. No two of them are the SAME character flaw.


Actually, yes, she was equating them. And again, where has a BS on here claimed to be perfect?? I'll try and spell it out for you again:

Assigning low character to cheaters *does not* equal a claim to perfection or sainthood.


----------



## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> Again, I wasn't saying that's what she said. I was speaking in general of my opinion as to when a BS may be able to come to terms with the marital problems.
> 
> Again, I did not say she said that. Those were MY words and MY opinion of when a BS can possibly cope with the marital problems.


You spoke in all inclusive terms. EI's post pointed out that what you wrote was NOT true in general term.

It is something like saying that a BS should never reconcile but should divorce the cheater forthwith. That too is an absolute and is not true in many particular circumstances.


----------



## Regret214

Healer said:


> Actually, yes, she was equating them. And again, where has a BS on here claimed to be perfect?? I'll try and spell it out for you again:
> 
> Assigning low character to cheaters *does not* equal a claim to perfection or sainthood.


Actually, no I wasn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> You spoke in all inclusive terms. EI's post pointed out that what you wrote was NOT true in general term.


No, I spoke MY opinion and never said EI said it and I KNOW EI didn't say it.

And in any case, here I am, a fBS, pretty much agreeing about working on the pre-affair marital problems once the infidelity is dealt with, and you wanted to incorrectly focus on me supposedly attributing that to EI? Really? Thats what you wanted to focus on in that entire post?

Even when a BS agrees, its not good enough apparently....look for something else, no matter how incorrect it is.



> It is something like saying that a BS should never reconcile but should divorce the cheater forthwith. That too is an absolute and is not true in many particular circumstances.


Uh, I think you need to go back and read my post again. Clearly I didn't say anything of the sort.


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> You spoke in all inclusive terms. EI's post pointed out that what you wrote was NOT true in general term.
> 
> It is something like saying that a BS should never reconcile but should divorce the cheater forthwith. That too is an absolute and is not true in many particular circumstances.


Aren't you the one who claimed that in the "real world" kids aren't hurt by infidelity/divorce? I'd love to hear more about that.


----------



## 3putt

Regret214 said:


> Actually, no I wasn't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually, you were and you did. For the record, though, I get what you were trying to say, but your examples for comparison fell way short of reasonable.


----------



## Wolf1974

HTML:







sidney2718 said:


> Please understand that I'm not trying to pick on you or anything of the sort. But there is another aspect of all this, namely your ex's feelings in the situation. And please understand that I know nothing about your situation other than what you've written here.
> 
> The thing is that she may not care if you forgive her or not. Doing it the way she did clearly was easier for her and that may be all that mattered to her.
> 
> Did any of us ask Zanne why she's doing things the way she is? Clearly she considers her marriage over and she's doing what she thinks is the easiest thing. I'd love to know her reasoning. I'd also love to know your ex's reasoning too.



Ohh she doesn't care. Has never asked for it and doesn't want it. In her mind she has done nothing wrong


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> And I'm here because I'd love to know why your x said yes and why other cheaters did what they did.
> 
> And I don't accept the notion that the explanation is simply that they are evil creatures.


Well the notion of evil is something for another thread. Come to work with me for a 10 hour shift and I will prove to you it does exist


----------



## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> Boy, you are just grasping at straws aren't you?
> 
> This doesn't have to do with the reconciliation itself. My comment is about when a BS can start adequately looking at the marital problems.
> 
> Coming to a point where one MIGHT be able to reconcile is not the same thing as reconciliation or its process.


Why don't you stop while you are behind? You said, and I quote:



> And I have said time and time again that the problems in the marriage may only be adequately dealt with once the pain and the issue of the cheating is adequately dealt with.


(If I can quote you, you could have quoted you too, but you didn't.)

Note the use of absolutes. You clearly stated that marriage problems must come first and you make it clear that the "marriage problems" are the "pain and issue of the cheating".

This is not what you say you said at the top of the post. TAM has seen a number of examples that prove you wrong, where reconciliation and dealing with the infidelity took place at the same time.

If one looks at infidelity in general and not just one's own experience of it, it becomes clear that in many cases there were problems in the marriage that allowed infidelity to enter the marriage. And NO, I am not excusing the infidelity. 

Given that there are problems in the marriage, there can be no reconciliation until those problems are addressed. And if one wants a reconciliation (many do not) the best way to go is to treat the WS as an equal participant it what will be, if reconciliation works, a brand new relationship which is really a brand new marriage.


----------



## xakulax

lenzi said:


> Folks, this is why people should really consider things carefully before they marry. Especially if you're the breadwinner.
> 
> This poster makes it clear, beyond the shadow of a doubt- that there are users out there that will take you for your money and give you nothing back but grief, and not give it a second thought because, hey, they didn't force the guy to marry them, it was his choice and now she reaps the benefits of his poor choices.
> 
> I'm not saying she's wrong, or unethical, or morally deficient in some way. I'm simply saying that she's not alone. There are plenty more where she came from.
> 
> It's a jungle out there.
> 
> Tread carefully.




:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:



*True words but sadly few follow them*


----------



## BetrayedDad

Zanne said:


> My husband is a paycheck to me.


I want to congratulate you. In a mere seven words you have captured the quintessential reason why so many adulterers cheat instead of doing the right thing and leaving their spouses.

They are cowards who fear the financial and emotional fall out of their selfish actions. So they let their spouses live in ignorance. 

If YOU truely wanted to spare him you would either A) wait to carry on your relationship until after the divorce OR B) inform your spouse he is now in an open marriage. Those options are apparently not in your best interests. 

You simply want your cake. How you don't hate yourself I will never understand.


----------



## lenzi

sidney2718 said:


> You clearly stated that marriage problems must come first and you make it clear that the "marriage problems" are the "pain and issue of the cheating".


Actually he said the marriage problems must be dealt with first, before the pain and issues of the cheating are dealt with.

That indicates he views them as two separate and distinct entities.


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> Did any of us ask Zanne why she's doing things the way she is? Clearly she considers her marriage over and she's doing what she thinks is the easiest thing. I'd love to know her reasoning. I'd also love to know your ex's reasoning too.


If you are referring to her not divorcing her husband and setting him free, she has been asked. She isn't answering.


----------



## staystrong

> I take your point, but in my experience many waywards come from marriages where they feel a lack of affection, or a lack of respect, or feel bullied.


Is your statement based on objective view of the couple pre-A ?


----------



## lenzi

vellocet said:


> If you are referring to her not divorcing her husband and setting him free, she has been asked. She isn't answering.


She pretty much did answer. 

It's inconvenient for her to end the marriage at this time, and he financially supports her. Also the OM isn't ready to leave his wife.

So if she divorced her husband now, she'd find it difficult to live on her own and support herself. Although I'd imagine that she's eligible for spousal support for the short term at least, although perhaps she'd rather not count on that. 

It's all about her putting her own needs first. She's being taken care of. Financially by her husband, and emotionally/sexually by OM.

Why change it? It works for her. 

People tend to be selfish by nature, some more than others. zanne just happens to be at the extreme, where she'll throw the man she married under a bus to suit her own needs.

I'm not judging. Just observing. Heck if I was in a position where I was married to someone I no longer cared about, who threw money at me and was content with burying their head in the sand while I didn't have to work, and went around screwing other people and satisfying my own needs, I cannot say for sure I wouldn't do the same thing. 

Ok, actually now that I just read what I wrote, I can't say I would take advantage of another person like that, if only because I like to consider myself independent and not a parasite who is dependent on another human being for my existence.


----------



## staystrong

My feeling is that Zanne really wants to love and be loved. She harbors a lot of resentments because of her own deficiencies in communication.

But boy she can show her cruelty. Where does that come from, Zanne? Who do you hate.. your husband, yourself, your situation?


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> If one looks at infidelity in general and not just one's own experience of it, it becomes clear that in many cases there were problems in the marriage that allowed infidelity to enter the marriage.


I think we can all agree that the vast majority of marriages tainted by infidelity have "problems". Not exactly a revelation there.

The only thing that "allowed" infidelity to enter the marriage is the cheating spouse. It's a choice, plain and simple. Unless of course you're talking about rape - which is a different thing. Infidelity is not some magical, mystical creature that seeps in due to a crack in the wall, like some evil spirit. It's the choice of one of 2 people in a marriage. Grown ups aren't puppets. We have free will.

I'm still waiting to hear more about your assertion that children aren't hurt by infidelity/cheating. Bated breath over here.


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> Why don't you stop while you are behind? You said, and I quote:
> 
> 
> 
> (If I can quote you, you could have quoted you too, but you didn't.)
> 
> Note the use of absolutes. You clearly stated that marriage problems must come first and you make it clear that the "marriage problems" are the "pain and issue of the cheating".


Ok, first off, as far as your smartass comment of quitting while I am behind, if you want this to become uncivil, I can oblige. Keep it up all the while claiming to want civility.

Secondly, you are moving the goalposts now. First you claim I was saying that EI said that. I am not and she did not.

Then insinuated that I was being an expert at reconciliation after I said that I was not.

So NOW you are saying this is about absolutes. Is it too much to ask you to follow your own replies to me without side stepping when I answer?

Ok, so now you want to get hung up on whether or not I think what I say is absolute. Again, really??

Alrighty then, here I go stating what should even be obvious to you. Nothing ANYONE says here is absolute. Its only people stating their opinions, and what I said is MY opinion. I really don't believe I even have to explain that to you.



> This is not what you say you said at the top of the post. TAM has seen a number of examples that prove you wrong, where reconciliation and dealing with the infidelity took place at the same time.


And there are also examples that prove me right. What I say is what I believe. If someone else can reconcile and their WS still isn't owning their cheating or hasn't helped their BS as much as they can with the pain, then great, I'm glad they are doing what THEY feel is right.


For me and the rest, we are wired differently.




> If one looks at infidelity in general and not just one's own experience of it, it becomes clear that in many cases there were problems in the marriage that allowed infidelity to enter the marriage. And NO, I am not excusing the infidelity.


And I believe a lot of BS can acknowledge that. Hell even I can.

What is not clear, and a load of bunk, is when a WS comes here and says they cheated "because BS" did this, or that, or didn't.



> Given that there are problems in the marriage, there can be no reconciliation until those problems are addressed. And if one wants a reconciliation (many do not) the best way to go is to treat the WS as an equal participant it what will be, if reconciliation works, a brand new relationship which is really a brand new marriage.


And the BS that is left with mind movies and triggers in this new marriage?


----------



## Served Cold

lenzi said:


> She pretty much did answer.
> 
> It's inconvenient for her to end the marriage at this time, and he financially supports her. Also the OM isn't ready to leave his wife.
> 
> So if she divorced her husband now, she'd find it difficult to live on her own and support herself. Although I'd imagine that she's eligible for spousal support for the short term at least, although perhaps she'd rather not count on that.
> 
> It's all about her putting her own needs first. She's being taken care of. Financially by her husband, and emotionally/sexually by OM.
> 
> Why change it? It works for her.
> 
> People tend to be selfish by nature, some more than others. zanne just happens to be at the extreme, where she'll throw the man she married under a bus to suit her own needs.
> 
> I'm not judging. Just observing. Heck if I was in a position where I was married to someone I no longer cared about, who threw money at me and was content with burying their head in the sand while I didn't have to work, and went around screwing other people and satisfying my own needs, I cannot say for sure I wouldn't do the same thing.
> 
> Ok, actually now that I just read what I wrote, I can't say I would take advantage of another person like that, if only because I like to consider myself independent and not a parasite who is dependent on another human being for my existence.



Nothing like a blinking eyeball to explain entitlement. 

Good job lenzi in not sugar coating the harsh truth.


----------



## karole

Healer said:


> I think we can all agree that the vast majority of marriages tainted by infidelity have "problems". Not exactly a revelation there.
> 
> The only thing that "allowed" infidelity to enter the marriage is the cheating spouse. It's a choice, plain and simple. Unless of course you're talking about rape - which is a different thing. Infidelity is not some magical, mystical creature that seeps in due to a crack in the wall, like some evil spirit. It's the choice of one of 2 people in a marriage. Grown ups aren't puppets. We have free will.
> 
> I'm still waiting to hear more about your assertion that children aren't hurt by infidelity/cheating. Bated breath over here.


I don't understand how anyone could think that infidelity doesn't affect children. I was 12 years old when my mom cheated the first time, I'm now 51 years old and it still bothers me. I hate what she did to us and I hated her for a very long time.

Someone posted earlier something about children w/parents who cheat ending up cheating in their own marriage. If anything, experiencing the cheating my mother did made me determined to NEVER be like her.


----------



## Suspecting2014

lenzi said:


> She pretty much did answer.
> 
> It's inconvenient for her to end the marriage at this time, and he financially supports her. Also the OM isn't ready to leave his wife.
> 
> So if she divorced her husband now, she'd find it difficult to live on her own and support herself. Although I'd imagine that she's eligible for spousal support for the short term at least, although perhaps she'd rather not count on that.
> 
> It's all about her putting her own needs first. She's being taken care of. Financially by her husband, and emotionally/sexually by OM.
> 
> Why change it? It works for her.
> 
> People tend to be selfish by nature, some more than others. zanne just happens to be at the extreme, where she'll throw the man she married under a bus to suit her own needs.
> 
> I'm not judging. Just observing. Heck if I was in a position where I was married to someone I no longer cared about, who threw money at me and was content with burying their head in the sand while I didn't have to work, and went around screwing other people and satisfying my own needs, I cannot say for sure I wouldn't do the same thing.
> 
> Ok, actually now that I just read what I wrote, I can't say I would take advantage of another person like that, if only because I like to consider myself independent and not a parasite who is dependent on another human being for my existence.


Cake eater best definition ever!

you just can have everything, even a little child know this. Less by hurting others.

I am not judging but not supporting.


----------



## Regret214

3putt said:


> Actually, you were and you did. For the record, though, I get what you were trying to say, but your examples for comparison fell way short of reasonable.


Actually, I was not. You can NOT know my mind. Please, don't drag this on longer. I was NOT drawing comparisons to infidelity. I was trying to draw comparisons to character. A persons character.


----------



## staystrong

Important:

There's a difference between there being problems which are not brought to the table versus problems which are unaddressed. 

And personal problems of the cheater do not count as marriage problems.


----------



## skype

So, are there any more lurking waywards who want to post their story to see if TAM can help you?


----------



## Regret214

skype said:


> So, are there any more lurking waywards who want to post their story to see if TAM can help you?


I literally just spit my drink out. That was perfect! :rofl:


----------



## vellocet

lenzi said:


> She pretty much did answer.
> 
> It's inconvenient for her to end the marriage at this time, and he financially supports her. Also the OM isn't ready to leave his wife.


So she is using him and he is paying for what the OM should be paying for.

Nice. I did not realize this. And here I thought she was doing right by him and even gave her a suggestion about how to help support her child.

Aye yi yi. I feel duped.



> So if she divorced her husband now, she'd find it difficult to live on her own and support herself. Although I'd imagine that she's eligible for spousal support for the short term at least, although perhaps she'd rather not count on that.


Well I'd hope she wouldn't count on that.



> It's all about her putting her own needs first. She's being taken care of. Financially by her husband, and emotionally/sexually by OM.
> 
> Why change it? It works for her.


Wow, just wow.


----------



## Healer

karole said:


> I don't understand how anyone could think that infidelity doesn't affect children. I was 12 years old when my mom cheated the first time, I'm now 51 years old and it still bothers me. I hate what she did to us and I hated her for a very long time.
> 
> Someone posted earlier something about children w/parents who cheat ending up cheating in their own marriage. If anything, experiencing the cheating my mother did made me determined to NEVER be like her.


Yeah, he won't address it. One of the most remarkable statements I've ever read on TAM.


----------



## soccermom2three

karole said:


> I don't understand how anyone could think that infidelity doesn't affect children. I was 12 years old when my mom cheated the first time, I'm now 51 years old and it still bothers me. I hate what she did to us and I hated her for a very long time.
> 
> Someone posted earlier something about children w/parents who cheat ending up cheating in their own marriage. If anything, experiencing the cheating my mother did made me determined to NEVER be like her.


When my dad's LTA was revealed I was around 22. It made me re-think every thing about my dad and men. I went from thinking he was the most awesome guy in my world to being extremely disappointed in him. Though I try not to go there, I really think that given a perfect storm of circumstances and weakness any man can and will cheat.


----------



## karole

vellocet said:


> So she is using him and he is paying for what the OM should be paying for.
> 
> Nice. I did not realize this. And here I thought she was doing right by him and even gave her a suggestion about how to help support her child.
> 
> Aye yi yi. I feel duped.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I'd hope she wouldn't count on that.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, just wow.


Vellocet, Zanne has stated in her other thread that her OM does pay for her phone and their weekends away together. Oh, and he also paid all of her traffic tickets. Perhaps he is paying even more for her now, she hasn't said.


----------



## Faeleaf

> I don't understand how anyone could think that infidelity doesn't affect children.


Like anything, there's a lot of variation in individual examples, none of which are a perfect representation of the whole. 

I was not in the least hurt by my parents' cheating. I was hurt by their fighting (about which the cheating was only a minor part). I was hurt by their divorce (again - the cheating cannot be said to be the cause of this. There were a LOT of ugly, broken things going on in that marriage). I was hurt by their anger and bitterness and how they used me as ammunition to hurt each other after the divorce. And I was badly scarred by one of my step-parents after they re-married. The "good" step-parent. 

In my own life, my kids haven't been hurt by my first husband's cheating. They don't even know about it. They were hurt by our divorce, but the cheating was only a partial factor in my decision to divorce. I stayed on for years - I thought I could make it work - but eventually there were just too many broken things to fix. If it had just been the cheating, we would probably still be married. Still, it's the fact that I made Daddy leave the home that hurts them. Not the cheating that they don't even know about. 

I'm positive many others had different experiences, every bit as important to seeing the "whole picture" as my own.


----------



## Regret214

Faeleaf said:


> Like anything, there's a lot of variation in individual examples, none of which are a perfect representation of the whole.
> 
> I was not in the least hurt by my parents' cheating. I was hurt by their fighting (about which the cheating was only a minor part). I was hurt by their divorce (again - the cheating cannot be said to be the cause of this. There were a LOT of ugly, broken things going on in that marriage). I was hurt by their anger and bitterness and how they used me as ammunition to hurt each other after the divorce. And I was badly scarred by one of my step-parents after they re-married. The "good" step-parent.
> 
> In my own life, my kids haven't been hurt by my first husband's cheating. They don't even know about it. They were hurt by our divorce, but the cheating was only a partial factor in my decision to divorce. I stayed on for years - I thought I could make it work - but eventually there were just too many broken things to fix. If it had just been the cheating, we would probably still be married. Still, it's the fact that I made Daddy leave the home that hurts them. Not the cheating that they don't even know about.
> 
> I'm positive many others had different experiences, every bit as important to seeing the "whole picture" as my own.


I'm so very sorry for your situation. I cannot imagine it. However, thank you for making the point about children and divorce. Especially, your own personal witnessing of your parents and how that made you feel.

Again, I'm sorry you went through that.


----------



## vellocet

karole said:


> Vellocet, Zanne has stated in her other thread that her OM does pay for her phone and their weekends away together. Oh, and he also paid all of her traffic tickets. Perhaps he is paying even more for her now, she hasn't said.


And here I was in that thread trying to help her negotiate child support in lieu of any kind of court order.

So since he is paying for everything, and even their little love getaways, he owes her nothing more IMO until she divorces. Then when she divorces she can add the real insult to injury.

Now I feel stupid for even getting sucked into helping.


----------



## lenzi

karole said:


> Vellocet, Zanne has stated in her other thread that her OM does pay for her phone and their weekends away together. Oh, and he also paid all of her traffic tickets. Perhaps he is paying even more for her now, she hasn't said.


I wonder why the husband hasn't questioned how she pays her phone bill given that she has no job. 

Why does zanne get so many traffic tickets? Can't be that she's late for work, she has no job. Is she speeding to OMs house to get sex or is she rushing home to hubby to get money?


----------



## karole

lenzi said:


> I wonder why the husband hasn't questioned how she pays her phone bill given that she has no job.
> 
> Why does zanne get so many traffic tickets? Can't be that she's late for work, she has no job. Is she speeding to OMs house to get sex or is she rushing home to hubby to get money?


I think she said she was ticketed for driving without a license (more than once), but I may be wrong about that. I don't remember why she lost her license. Perhaps Zanne will post the reasons.


----------



## Healer

karole said:


> If anything, experiencing the cheating my mother did made me determined to NEVER be like her.


And _that_ shows strong and good character.


----------



## lenzi

karole said:


> I think she said she was ticketed for driving without a license (more than once), but I may be wrong about that. I don't remember why she lost her license. Perhaps Zanne will post the reasons.


*DWI*

Driving while impaled. 

Sometimes it's hard to find privacy during an affair.

Just say'en


----------



## Healer

soccermom2three said:


> Though I try not to go there, I really think that given a perfect storm of circumstances and weakness any man can and will cheat.


What does this mean? You either cheat, or you don't. I was in a crappy marriage for 12 years, accused of cheating the entire time. I was neglected by my wife, I was in a successful band, in good shape, had countless opportunities to do it without ever getting caught, beautiful women offering themselves to me...and being treated like I was a cheater all the time anyway, so why not? Why not at least reap the rewards if I was suffering the consequences anyway?

Guess what? I was 100% faithful to my wife our entire marriage. So, your assertion fails.


----------



## vellocet

Boy, if ever there was a case for Alienation of Affection, the premise having nothing to do with affection but rather marital money used on or for an affair partner, this would be it!


----------



## vellocet

soccermom2three said:


> Though I try not to go there, I really think that given a perfect storm of circumstances and weakness any man can and will cheat.


Nope.

Never did, never would have, and impossible for me to ever in the future since to cheat there needs to be commitment. And in the off chance I do commit, still the answer is, not gonna happen.

But SMO3, I take it you don't feel this way about women too?


----------



## Daisy Etta

Zanne said:


> We had a horrendous DDay, he made me tell the kids, ALL of our family and friends know, etc.





Zanne said:


> To be clear, nobody knows (except anonymous people on TAM). No kids are involved. No friends are aware. The deception is exhausting, but we fully intend to be with each other after we are publicly split from our current spouses. And even then kids would not be immediately involved. I see it all as a timing thing.


Why yes, it must be exhausting, to keep remembering what your latest story is. All of us should know not to believe any words which float to us out of the fog.No wonder Vellocet mistakenly thought you'd said you were doing the right thing, and not deceiving your husband.Probably somewhere you did say that too. Stop being so durn selfish. Tell the guy. Tell the OMW. Life isn't just about what's good for YOU, the BS only get one life too, let it be a fully aware one.


----------



## Healer

Faeleaf said:


> Like anything, there's a lot of variation in individual examples, none of which are a perfect representation of the whole.
> 
> I was not in the least hurt by my parents' cheating. I was hurt by their fighting (about which the cheating was only a minor part). I was hurt by their divorce (again - the cheating cannot be said to be the cause of this. There were a LOT of ugly, broken things going on in that marriage). I was hurt by their anger and bitterness and how they used me as ammunition to hurt each other after the divorce. And I was badly scarred by one of my step-parents after they re-married. The "good" step-parent.
> 
> In my own life, my kids haven't been hurt by my first husband's cheating. They don't even know about it. They were hurt by our divorce, but the cheating was only a partial factor in my decision to divorce. I stayed on for years - I thought I could make it work - but eventually there were just too many broken things to fix. If it had just been the cheating, we would probably still be married. Still, it's the fact that I made Daddy leave the home that hurts them. Not the cheating that they don't even know about.
> 
> I'm positive many others had different experiences, every bit as important to seeing the "whole picture" as my own.


That was your experience. Countless others, as illustrated in this very thread, have been deeply hurt by infidelity/divorce. The beef here is the post sidney2718 made stating that it "isn't reality" that children are hurt by it. Just because he doesn't think so, or you weren't doesn't make it so. It's a ridiculous and insulting assertion.


----------



## Regret214

So, Daisy...what was your previous username before your last banning?


----------



## Healer

Regret214 said:


> I'm so very sorry for your situation. I cannot imagine it. However, thank you for making the point about children and divorce. Especially, your own personal witnessing of your parents and how that made you feel.
> 
> Again, I'm sorry you went through that.


What point? That not every single child of infidelity/divorce is hurt/damaged by it? True. Not everyone dies when they get in a car accident either. :scratchhead:


----------



## Wolf1974

soccermom2three said:


> When my dad's LTA was revealed I was around 22. It made me re-think every thing about my dad and men. I went from thinking he was the most awesome guy in my world to being extremely disappointed in him. Though I try not to go there, I really think that given a perfect storm of circumstances and weakness any man can and will cheat.


This is something you thought right? But you grew up and realized it wasn't true correct ?


And this is the type of thing Zanne should be taking to heart. When the affair comes to light this is how your kids
Could think of you as well
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Daisy Etta

Regret214 said:


> So, Daisy...what was your previous username before your last banning?


Huh? Banning? Did I do something wrong? I know I did the quoting right.


----------



## Regret214

Healer said:


> What point? That not every single child of infidelity/divorce is hurt/damaged by it? True. Not everyone dies when they get in a car accident either. :scratchhead:


Wow.


----------



## Regret214

Tell ya what Healer...put me on ignore please because that's all you seem to be is argumentative and it's getting pretty old that you question absolutely every single thing I type. So, please - put me on ignore.


----------



## lenzi

Daisy Etta said:


> Stop being so durn selfish. Tell the guy. Tell the OMW. Life isn't just about what's good for YOU, the BS only get one life too, let it be a fully aware one.


I'm thinking zanne isn't going to read this and say to herself "wow you're right! I'm being so unfair to my husband, I'm going to tell him the truth right now, and I'm going to move out and give him the easy, uncontested divorce that he deserves!"

She'll probably go on like this for quite some time. I doubt OM is ready to give up the convenience of his marriage either, regardless of what he tells her. 

I'd imagine there are more red flags than at Daytona Speedway. Eventually zanne's clueless husband is going to pick his head up out of the sand and maybe he'll step to the plate and divorce her and she'll get a hit of the harsh reality she's created for herself.

If not, then we'll just have to wait until the affair falls apart on it's own, which it invariably will. Two extremely selfish people do not have what it takes to maintain a happy, healthy relationship. They're both in it for themselves, and that leaves a very small margin for error.


----------



## sidney2718

Quote:


> Originally Posted by soulpotato
> I'm personally sick of holier-than-thou nonsense. If someone is a sh1tty human being, faithfulness does not pretty that up or excuse it.


Quote from Vellocet:


> First of all, you are assuming that the person was a sh!tty person to be cheated on. So why don't you just come out and say it? That RWB was somehow a sh!tty husband and he got what he deserved.


No, soulpotato die NOT assume that. You are doing it again. There is an IF in that sentence. It says that "If someone is a sh1tty human being..." 


Quote:


> Originally posted by soulpotato
> If someone cheats, that does not automatically make them a sh1tty human being.


Quote from Vellocet


> Ah, but its perfectly ok to assume that the person cheated ON, is??? How the F does that work?


Same thing. Soulpotato did not say it was "perfectly ok to assume that the person cheated ON is???"

I have no idea why you continually put words in other people's mouths. I'm not going to assume that you do it to simply stir the pot. But you must have a reason and I'm curious as to what it is.


----------



## Faeleaf

Healer said:


> That was your experience. Countless others, as illustrated in this very thread, have been deeply hurt by infidelity/divorce. Just because he doesn't think so, or you weren't doesn't make it so.


Absolutely correct, and I believe I said as much (twice) in my post. I think we see eye to eye on this - one person's experience isn't the whole picture, though it is a part - and I'm glad to hear the other side too. I was specifically responding to someone saying they couldn't fathom infidelity not hurting kids. So I shared my experiences, to hopefully add to that understanding.


----------



## lenzi

Regret214 said:


> So, Daisy...what was your previous username before your last banning?


It's obvious this poster is a previously banned user but I doubt they're going to answer your question honestly. 



Daisy Etta said:


> Huh? Banning? Did I do something wrong? I know I did the quoting right.


...... :lol:


----------



## sidney2718

soulpotato said:


> What I am is fed up, vellocet. I'm angry right now. I see the idea on TAM over & over that BSs deserve compassion & sympathy, but fWSs don't. Anyway, the BSs get enough of that from everyone here.
> 
> & to whatever you're implying - I was totally remorseful and worked my ass off.
> 
> I say let the BSs know. Not sure why this keeps popping up as some sort of intimidation technique?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes.


----------



## sidney2718

soulpotato said:


> Sorry, guys. I want to apologize. What I'm really angry/hurt about is my BS not trying. I just realized it. I was having a conversation with someone about her right before I started reading and posting on this thread. I didn't mean to take it out on anyone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think you have anything to apologize for. You posted about your truths. One should not have to apologize for them.


----------



## Daisy Etta

lenzi said:


> It's obvious this poster is a previously banned user but I doubt they're going to answer your question honestly.


I assure you I have never been banned before. I am concerned as to why you think so? Seriously if I have done something wrong please let me know now, if I am dangerously close to banning I would like a warning so as not to get there?

I admit that Zanne's active cheating ways triggers me pretty bad from my time as a BW, but I can see I'm not alone in that and I didn't think that could get me banned?


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> I don't think you have anything to apologize for. You posted about your truths. One should not have to apologize for them.


Hey, you're back!


----------



## lenzi

Daisy Etta said:


> I assure you I have never been banned before. I am concerned as to why you think so? Seriously if I have done something wrong please let me know now, if I am dangerously close to banning I would like a warning so as not to get there?
> 
> I admit that Zanne's active cheating ways triggers me pretty bad from my time as a BW, but I can see I'm not alone in that and I didn't think that could get me banned?


Because you are a brand new poster who has only posted on this one thread (with one exception) and you know how to multiquote and all of your posts on this thread except the 2 made in your own defense are written in anger directed at zanne and your innocent question about "if messing up your posts could get you banned" is laughable.

For your sake I hope you were smart enough to use a level 1 proxy server


----------



## sidney2718

Served Cold said:


> Nine out ten times the person who is the affair partner is even less perfect than the spouse they're cheating on.
> 
> go figure....


I heard that the figure was 8.7326 times out of 10.


----------



## Healer

Daisy Etta said:


> I assure you I have never been banned before. I am concerned as to why you think so? Seriously if I have done something wrong please let me know now, if I am dangerously close to banning I would like a warning so as not to get there?
> 
> I admit that Zanne's active cheating ways triggers me pretty bad from my time as a BW, but I can see I'm not alone in that and I didn't think that could get me banned?


Just ignore it. I don't know why they'd care one way or the other anyway, it's got nothing to do with anything.


----------



## staystrong

lenzi said:


> I'd imagine there are more red flags than at Daytona Speedway. Eventually zanne's clueless husband is going to pick his head up out of the sand and maybe he'll step to the plate and divorce her and she'll get a hit of the harsh reality she's created for herself.
> 
> If not, then we'll just have to wait until the affair falls apart on it's own, which it invariably will. Two extremely selfish people do not have what it takes to maintain a happy, healthy relationship. They're both in it for themselves, and that leaves a very small margin for error.


She seems prepared for the hit. It's been a long time in the making.


----------



## doubletrouble

soccermom2three said:


> When my dad's LTA was revealed I was around 22. It made me re-think every thing about my dad and men. I went from thinking he was the most awesome guy in my world to being extremely disappointed in him. Though I try not to go there, I really think that given a perfect storm of circumstances and weakness *anyone* can and will cheat.


ftfy


----------



## sidney2718

Faeleaf said:


> I have never cheated, though my first husband cheated on me several times. I have also been witness to several affairs in my friends' and families' marriages. So I feel like I have the perspective necessary to say this.
> 
> If you are a cheater, you are not _only_ a cheater. That is only a part of you who you are. And I am certain of this - the whole of you, the entirety of your story, has tremendous value. It should be told, and it should be accepted, understood, absorbed. It is important. No part of your perspective, no part of your experience, should be shouted down because it hurts to hear.
> 
> There is a tendency (and I don't accuse anyone here, just mentioning a trend I see in my life) for BS's, in their pain, to lose the ability to truly listen to, and feel empathy for, their spouse. In my opinion (yes, as a BS myself) this is a unfortunate trend. Human nature, yes indeed. But it does not serve us well. We lose so much when we listen to only our own side of the story.
> 
> Longfellow once wrote,_ "If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we would find there enough sorrow and suffering to disarm all hostility."_ This is nowhere as true as in marriages, when one spouse has dealt a terrible blow to your heart and to the union. There is a secret history here that still needs to be read. Sorrow and suffering, and yes, wrongs on both sides that should be admitted, addressed, and forgiven.
> 
> But we miss all of this in our rush to nominate ourselves to sainthood, in our frantic hurry to build around ourselves a protective wall of absolutes, as if ignoring our own shortcomings, or reciting thin maxims like "There is no excuse for cheating" can shield us from pain or future harm.
> 
> They can't. We're on this ride for good now, all of us together. My grandmother liked to say, _"Small kitchen, sharp elbows"_ as a way of explaining that humans hurt each other, regardless of our intentions to do otherwise. I've done my share of jabbing, and who can say if I've been harmed more then I've harmed others? Or how would trying to maintain such a tally ever help me?


Thank you for this post.


----------



## doubletrouble

karole said:


> If anything, experiencing the cheating my mother did made me determined to NEVER be like her.


I guess we could call that a silver lining for your own family.


----------



## lenzi

staystrong said:


> She seems prepared for the hit. It's been a long time in the making.


Oh. I must have missed the post where she said she got a job.


----------



## vellocet

Ok so with things coming to light, for me anyway, recently, here is the funniest thing I've heard.

Someone cheats, abuses their BS, using them for money, gets money to finance getaways for the WS and AP, and on top of that tries to get more money out of him.

Then people call her out on it and its...."haters gonna hate":rofl:

Pot meet kettle.


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> Thank you for this post.


Ahhhhh, all is making sense now.


----------



## Healer

vellocet said:


> Ok so with things coming to light, for me anyway, recently, here is the funniest thing I've heard.
> 
> Someone cheats, abuses their BS, using them for money, gets money to finance getaways for the WS and AP, and on top of that tries to get more money out of him.
> 
> Then people call her out on it and its...."haters gonna hate":rofl:
> 
> Pot meet kettle.


Lol. It is something, isn't it?


----------



## pidge70

vellocet said:


> Ok so with things coming to light, for me anyway, recently, here is the funniest thing I've heard.
> 
> Someone cheats, abuses their BS, using them for money, gets money to finance getaways for the WS and AP, and on top of that tries to get more money out of him.
> 
> Then people call her out on it and its...."haters gonna hate":rofl:
> 
> Pot meet kettle.


I was wondering why you were giving her respect. I hoped it was because you didn't know everything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

Lovemytruck said:


> Zanne,
> 
> I give you credit for being painfully honest. It helps us understand the role of a BH in some cases. It hurts to know your husband was similar to us.
> 
> This gives us fuel for the old "kick 'em to the curb" approach.
> 
> Regret mentioned yesterday about many that advocate D. This is why I usually do. The reality for many of us is that we are merely a paycheck for a wh0re. No offense by using a bad word. *It is not YOU or anyone on TAM.* It is an introspection that we go through after our beloved has betrayed.
> 
> I see BSs who mirror myself, and I see WSs who mirror the comments above. This is the source of the venom. We are relegated to sacrificing for the person that sells us out.


The problem here is that what is a good action for some BS's is not necessarily a good action for all BS's.

If the "kick 'em to the curb" group would rephrase that to be "perhaps you need to think about kicking 'em to the curb" I for one would be very happy. It is the absolute nature of the statement that reduces a complex human relationship to a simple slogan that bothers me very seriously.


----------



## vellocet

pidge70 said:


> I was wondering why you were giving her respect. I hoped it was because you didn't know everything.


That's exactly what happened. Softened up, gave her the benefit of the doubt, and got burned. Geez


----------



## sidney2718

Healer said:


> Gawd, where do I start...
> 
> 
> 
> Cruel, deceitful, loathsome behavior that crushed someone else's soul and ripped out their heart should be accepted? You accept it all you want, but don't presume to tell me I should. I didn't, and never will. Why should abhorrent behavior be accepted, pray tell?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you get off assuming there were wrongs on both sides? How do you know that? I think we all (well, _most_ of us) can agree that cheating is wrong - therefore it's agreed that the cheater has done wrong. How do you know the BS has done wrong? You don't. Presumptuous.
> 
> 
> 
> How does me not accepting my spouse's infidelity, being disgusted by her cheating, equal me nominating myself to sainthood?? I don't recall any BS on this site ever claiming to be perfect or a saint. Where do you get this from? You're just making stuff up as you go along.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, I'm divorcing my WW, so we are, by definition, NOT in this together.


Healer, why are you attacking a person as if they were writing about you when they clearly were NOT writing about you or any other particular person?


----------



## sidney2718

karole said:


> She has no job, no car, and no other living arrangements. As she stated earlier, her husband is paycheck.


Yes, thank you. She did post that later, but after I had posted my question.


----------



## sidney2718

Originally Posted by sidney2718 
I'm puzzled by one thing in Zanne's story. Why has she not filed for divorce? Her husband expects that and she wants that. Why the delay?



karole said:


> She has no job, no car, and no other living arrangements. As she stated earlier, her husband is paycheck.


Thanks. You do understand that posts are coming into this thread at an amazing rate? My question was posted BEFORE Zanne posted her statement.

You can go back to your original post and compare posting times.


----------



## lenzi

I was only vaguely aware of the situation with zanne and her cheating, and then I came across her post on this thread where she writes that her husband is nothing but a paycheck to her and she'll continue to lie to him and continue with the affair until it's convenient for her to divorce him.

I've never been cheated on so I don't have that same trigger that other BS's have but when I read that my eyebrows went up, because it's rare to see such pure greed and selfishness, let alone seeing it expressed publically like zanne did here. She's not a wayward spouse looking for help, she's a wayward spouse almost boasting about how she's totally raking her clueless husband over the coals. It seems to me that she posts with the intent to antagonize and inflame.


----------



## Daisy Etta

lenzi said:


> Because you are a brand new poster who has only posted on this one thread (with one exception) and you know how to multiquote and all of your posts on this thread except the 2 made in your own defense are written in anger directed at zanne and your innocent question about "if messing up your posts could get you banned" is laughable.
> 
> For your sake I hope you were smart enough to use a level 1 proxy server


This isn't my first forum membership, they all work pretty similar and some I belong to seem to be hosted by the exact same system as this, the look is identical. I learned to multiquote years ago from my hobby forums. Gosh I never thought that would be suspicious and make fellow CWI people threaten to ban me. You guys are really hard to understand.

I didn't ask if "messing up your posts could get you banned", I asked if I'd *said* something that could get me banned, because I was surprised at the suggestion. Just because I know how to write on forums doesn't mean I understand the attitudes on this one.

I came across the Robin Williams thread, and upon exploring TAM I realized I could really use someone to talk to about my coping with infidelity issues. Sorry, I guess I shouldn't have chosen this thread but it was the busiest on the first page and so I thought I'd meet the most people here. Didn't realize that would make me look like whatever you think I look like. It's just that when I read others who were of the same opinion as me (re an active cheater posing as "coping"), I thought I'd found a place.


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> Healer, why are you attacking a person as if they were writing about you when they clearly were NOT writing about you or any other particular person?


I'm not attacking. I'm addressing assertions I strongly disagree with. Responding in the first person was merely a style choice - I'm very aware this wasn't directed at me personally, I don't know the poster and they don't know me. I was responding in a general sense. They were writing about BS - which is who I was speaking for (using my own opinions).

So would you care to address your post about "reality" and that kids aren't hurt by infidelity/divorce now?


----------



## lenzi

Daisy Etta said:


> This isn't my first forum membership, they all work pretty similar and some I belong to seem to be hosted by the exact same system as this, the look is identical. I learned to multiquote years ago from my hobby forums. Gosh I never thought that would be suspicious and make fellow CWI people threaten to ban me. You guys are really hard to understand... It's just that when I read others who were of the same opinion as me (re an active cheater posing as "coping"), I thought I'd found a place.


Most new members don't come out swinging with their 2nd post. 

Anyway..

Welcome to TAM.

I hope you enjoy your stay here.


----------



## sidney2718

Originally Posted by sidney2718 


> Here we go again. Nobody equated cheating with speeds, smokes, or drinks. The clear point was that the perfect person does NONE of these things. The perfect person does not cheat, speed, smoke, or drink or engage in a myriad of other imperfect behaviors.
> 
> These are all character flaws. No two of them are the SAME character flaw.





Healer said:


> Actually, yes, she was equating them. And again, where has a BS on here claimed to be perfect?? I'll try and spell it out for you again:
> 
> Assigning low character to cheaters *does not* equal a claim to perfection or sainthood.


No, she was not equating them. She was pointing out factors that would make a person less than perfect. Her aim was to show that few if any are perfect.

As for a claim to perfection, I agree with you there.


----------



## Suspecting2014

karole said:


> Vellocet, Zanne has stated in her other thread that her OM does pay for her phone and their weekends away together. Oh, and he also paid all of her traffic tickets. Perhaps he is paying even more for her now, she hasn't said.


I didnt wanna be mean to you, Lenzi or Zanne

I am very grateful to WW that post here, for me is very important to understand what's in a WW mind when decide to cheat.

It has been more than 18 years and i still find my self from time to time thinking of her cheating, and begging, and cheating again...until this days I believe it still affects my behavior with my wife (different person).

I understand that everybody face hard situation through life, sometimes feel in a dead end, sad, alone, etc. I just need to find out what makes a person cheat and hurt is/her loved ones. why don't just walk away???

I dont know Zanne, I dont know the details that has put her in her current situation, as dont know from others WW, but I am glad for she been brave to post.

Sorry for my english, is not my first language.


----------



## lenzi

Suspecting2014 said:


> I am very grateful to WW that post here, for me is very important to understand what's in a WW mind when decide to cheat.
> 
> I dont know Zanne, I dont know the details that has put her in her current situation, as dont know from others WW, but I am glad for she been brave to post.


It's pretty obvious from zanne's posts what's on the mind of a WW who posts here: *WW.*

Nothing more. 

How can my needs be met today?


----------



## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> No, I spoke MY opinion and never said EI said it and I KNOW EI didn't say it.


You still deny even though I've posted the evidence twice. Your statement was an absolute as many of your statements are. EI's statement was a contradiction to your claim. I gather that you still don't see it.



> And in any case, here I am, a fBS, pretty much agreeing about working on the pre-affair marital problems once the infidelity is dealt with, and you wanted to incorrectly focus on me supposedly attributing that to EI? Really? Thats what you wanted to focus on in that entire post?


Once again. You said that one could only only deal with reconciliation once the infidelity was dealt with. The problem is the ONLY. It isn't correct. Many stories here on TAM contradict your ONLY. EI's is only one.



> Even when a BS agrees, its not good enough apparently....look for something else, no matter how incorrect it is.
> 
> Uh, I think you need to go back and read my post again. Clearly I didn't say anything of the sort.


I've quoted your post twice. You never manage to put your original quote in these posts. I guess that's convenient.


----------



## sidney2718

Healer said:


> Aren't you the one who claimed that in the "real world" kids aren't hurt by infidelity/divorce? I'd love to hear more about that.


Wow. I never said that. I said that marriages where a couple stay together for the sake of the children often end up hurting the children more than people with a divorce.


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> Well the notion of evil is something for another thread. Come to work with me for a 10 hour shift and I will prove to you it does exist


Thanks, but I live in Brooklyn and have seen enough.


----------



## soccermom2three

doubletrouble said:


> ftfy


Really? I'm telling you my truth here. I don't need you to fix anything.


----------



## Daisy Etta

lenzi said:


> Most new members don't come out swinging with their 2nd post.
> 
> Anyway..
> 
> Welcome to TAM.
> 
> I hope you enjoy your stay here.


Well, I WAS enjoying being here, earlier today. Suddenly I'm not too sure about that. Being called laughable when I am worried, has that downer effect on me. I apologize for whatever you didn't like about my posts. I'll try not to do it again.


----------



## sidney2718

lenzi said:


> Actually he said the marriage problems must be dealt with first, before the pain and issues of the cheating are dealt with.
> 
> That indicates he views them as two separate and distinct entities.


No. The quote from Vellocet is below. He does regard them as two distinct entities but he clearly says that the "problems of the marriage" can only be dealt with "once the pain and the issue of the cheating is adequately dealt with."



> And I have said time and time again that the problems in the marriage may only be adequately dealt with once the pain and the issue of the cheating is adequately dealt with.


I don't know what could be more plain.


----------



## lenzi

Daisy Etta said:


> Well, I WAS enjoying being here, earlier today. Suddenly I'm not too sure about that. Being called laughable when I am worried, has that downer effect on me. I apologize for whatever you didn't like about my posts. I'll try not to do it again.


Daisy, I think we're off to a good start after a brief tussle.

Let's do it again some time soon.

Now who's going to get the check?


----------



## lenzi

sidney2718 said:


> No. The quote from Vellocet is below. He does regard them as two distinct entities but he clearly says that the "problems of the marriage" can only be dealt with "once the pain and the issue of the cheating is adequately dealt with."
> 
> I don't know what could be more plain.


I got no dog in this fight, just observing.

I'm not seeing a problem with Vellocet saying the problems of the marriage and the issue of the cheating are separate entities and the latter must be dealt with before the former is dealt with.


----------



## sidney2718

Healer said:


> That was your experience. Countless others, as illustrated in this very thread, have been deeply hurt by infidelity/divorce. The beef here is the post sidney2718 made stating that it "isn't reality" that children are hurt by it. Just because he doesn't think so, or you weren't doesn't make it so. It's a ridiculous and insulting assertion.


I am rather tired pointing out that I never said that. So I would be obliged if you would post what I said.

I will repeat the gist of what I said: The reality is that situations where the couple stay together for the sake of the children are also often very bad for the kids. That's from memory. I'd like to see the post. If nothing else you can just give the number.


----------



## cpacan

doubletrouble said:


> Sorry to hear that, Vell. May I ask how old you are? Is life without risk a good one?
> 
> Love is a risk, it means we allow ourselves to be vulnerable. Sometimes we get screwed, but the possibility of happiness in sharing a good life with someone who loves you is such a great gift.
> 
> I've been cheated on many times. But here I am again, still risking it, still hoping to reap the reward.
> 
> It's your choice, obviously -- this is no judgement of your choice. I've lived alone in my life, and I enjoy my own company because I like who I am. I'd be fine without a partner in life. But it enhances my life to share it.


I had to go back and reread this post - it has been one of the most disturbing posts for me today, allthough competition was tough.

DT; It makes me happy to see someone with this attitude - you embrace reality of it all. You need to be vulnerable to be able to love and receive love - I accept that as a fact.

I was touched by your post because I know this is my challenge - I can't do what you do, make myself vulnerable again. After reading all these cold posts from people who hasn't received the gift of betrayal, I feel even less inclined to try.

May I ask, how do you feel when betrayal hits you? Is it easy to shrug it off? Do you really invest yourself 100% and and take the hit without defence? I would really like to know how you do it - any tips or tricks you would like to share?


----------



## doubletrouble

soccermom2three said:


> Really? I'm telling you my truth here. I don't need you to fix anything.


My apologies then. 

Other posters have, since I did that, asked you if you only think men will cheat, given the right circumstances. 

So you don't believe women will cheat, just us men?


----------



## karole

sidney2718 said:


> I am rather tired pointing out that I never said that. So I would be obliged if you would post what I said.
> 
> I will repeat the gist of what I said: The reality is that situations where the couple stay together for the sake of the children are also often very bad for the kids. That's from memory. I'd like to see the post. If nothing else you can just give the number.


I mean no disrespect Sidney, but are you a lawyer? I am just curious as you seem to love to argue.


----------



## sidney2718

Healer said:


> I'm not attacking. I'm addressing assertions I strongly disagree with. Responding in the first person was merely a style choice - I'm very aware this wasn't directed at me personally, I don't know the poster and they don't know me. I was responding in a general sense. They were writing about BS - which is who I was speaking for (using my own opinions).
> 
> So would you care to address your post about "reality" and that kids aren't hurt by infidelity/divorce now?


Please quote what I said.


----------



## sidney2718

lenzi said:


> I got no dog in this fight, just observing.
> 
> I'm not seeing a problem with Vellocet saying the problems of the marriage and the issue of the cheating are separate entities and the latter must be dealt with before the former is dealt with.


That's fine. It is the word ONLY that is the problem. Other folks here (and in real life) have managed both problems together.


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> That's fine. It is the word ONLY that is the problem. Other folks here (and in real life) have managed them together.


Oh for feks sake. I'll say it again, I phrased it from MY POV.

If the word only causes you this much of a coronary, fine, know I was speaking from what I THINK for those like minded as me

I know for me and SOME others, there is no way any reconciliation can take place until the pain of the betrayal is dealt with. Others can do both, yes.

Is that better for you now?


----------



## doubletrouble

cpacan said:


> I had to go back and reread this post - it has been one of the most disturbing posts for me today, allthough competition was tough.
> 
> DT; It makes me happy to see someone with this attitude - you embrace reality of it all. You need to be vulnerable to be able to love and receive love - I accept that as a fact.
> 
> I was touched by your post because I know this is my challenge - I can't do what you do, make myself vulnerable again. After reading all these cold posts from people who hasn't received the gift of betrayal, I feel even less inclined to try.
> 
> May I ask, how do you feel when betrayal hits you? Is it easy to shrug it off? Do you really invest yourself 100% and and take the hit without defence? I would really like to know how you do it - any tips or tricks you would like to share?


Well first I have to know that I am a good person, be happy with who I am. Personally, I have to be spiritually healthy as well. And I'm a romantic at heart. That said, I have, as I mentioned, spent some years living alone. That was confirmation for me that I like who I am. We all have things we work on, but the basic me, I like. 

I married the woman who took my virginity at age 19. I found out later I was her second of the day. Eight years later she was cheating on me with one of her (married) professors at the college for which I was paying. Ugh. Divorce, no problem. And I was 110% invested in that relationship. It was my first, my pure, she was brilliant, yet flawed. Dream gone. Retrospectively, it didn't hurt as much as the redhead....

It was about 4 years before I thought I might have felt the beginnings of that spark again. I met a redhead -- she was such a fine woman, so energetic and fun and smart and engaging. Prior to her, I had only had flings, I was closed off. She opened me up. Maybe she thought I was a challenge. But at some point I told her wow, I never thought I'd feel this again. Big mistake... after three years she cheated on me with a (married) stockbroker. I was so heratbroken I couldn't eat, I was initally up for three days, unable to sleep. I lost 25 pounds (not a Weight Watchers recommended system!). It took me a very long time to come to grips with that heartbreak. 

But I am a seeker. I know that out of billions of women out there, surely by a stroke of chance I could find one. I was in no hurry. I was at work one day and this feisty blonde gal driving a white convertible sports car drove up. We talked. I liked her. We dated, I married her. A few years later I moved out for two years. then I went back, thinking maybe I can fix this. She got cancer; I stayed out of guilt. Then she found a woman who excited her more than I did. I was merely a c0ck and a wallet to her by then. She even told me at one time to go find someone else to fvck. I called an attorney the next day.

The one I'm with now reignited that spark in me again. I was careful. I circled for a long time before dropping out of orbit and into hers. She talked the right talk, was true to herself... but that was before she hit that big 4-0 and fell for her (married) boss. I didn't know the whole story, of course, and there was some (what she called) "overlap." But here we are anyway, I am still with her and I believe in love. I believe in sharing my life, because I also believe in me. That's not a narcissistic thing, it's a desire to enhance. I enhance her, she enhances me. 

I give to charities. I open doors for women. I love animals. I give generously to family. I try to be a good man. I also fall short of my idealized self and am introspective. The older I get, the more I realize how little I know. But I do know that each time I've been in love, I've felt more alive than any other time in my life. When single, I can enjoy complete freedom, and there's wonderful energy in that. But love magnifies life. 

No, I can't shrug off betrayal. It hurts me very far down inside. In my younger years, I did shut off part of me. I saw that in later years. Vulnerability is dangerous to the heart. Time heals. But you have to want to heal. Otherwise you fall into life-sucking bitterness (I would, anyway). And I don't want to grow old, being bitter and angry. I'd rather bathe in life and love and all the positives I can get from those things. And to amplify it by sharing it with another human being. 

Maybe I'm an extremist, maybe I'm a fool, but I know I'm alive. 

I hope that gave you some insight.


----------



## Zanne

Mr Blunt said:


> Thanks Zane for your answer. As for my first question, what I get from your post is that if your husband did not have any bad behavior for 22 years then it would not be the determining factor because your husband “…is the wrong partner for me”
> 
> 
> My second question is somewhat moot because you have already stated that your husband has “…so many ways that H is the wrong partner for me” Therefore the make up years that your husband did is a moot point.
> 
> Based upon what you have stated I conclude that “bad behavior and make up actions are not the determining factor in the break up of a marriage but the spouse’s ways is what determines the partner wrong for marriage. You have not stated what those ways are but that is your prerogative to not specify.
> 
> *Is this what we can learn from your situation? Did I conclude right?*


In a way, I felt like you were trying to trip me up in my answers and I needed to reflect for a bit.

Two things are going on. First, you may remember that I am a Christian and struggled with the idea of divorce in the beginning. I very much try to justify my actions because I am also dealing with the church. I feel like I am being forced to stay with someone who I am unhappy with so I like to mention his bad behavior a lot.

Second, he is the father of my children and that counted for something over the years. So he was the right partner for me then.

Setting aside those two things, the ways that he is not the right partner for me include having no respect for him because of his abusive behavior to me and the kids and we have absolutely nothing in common and have different outlooks on life. If I'm forced to spend time with him, I'm either holding my tongue and saying things in my head or drinking alcohol to get through it. I don't want to spend the next 25 years of my life living like that.


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> Please quote what I said.


I typed:

Are you honestly, seriously saying you don't see that infidelity/divorce has a negative effect on children? It's DEVASTATING to children. And this devastation is caused by the WS's willful acts of selfishness and cruelty towards their entire nuclear family. Ergo - bad parent. But I think you do know that - you just don't want to face that cold, hard reality.


You typed: 


sidney2718 said:


> *Except that it is not reality.* It is also very bad for children to grow up in a home where the parents do not love each other.


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> Wow. I never said that. I said that marriages where a couple stay together for the sake of the children often end up hurting the children more than people with a divorce.


That was the 2nd part of what you said. I'm addressing the first.

I don't expect you to answer, but did you cheat on your wife?


----------



## Wolf1974

Zanne said:


> In a way, I felt like you were trying to trip me up in my answers and I needed to reflect for a bit.
> 
> Two things are going on. First, you may remember that I am a *Christian* and struggled with the idea of divorce in the beginning. I very much try to justify my actions because I am also dealing with the church. I feel like I am being forced to stay with someone who I am unhappy with so I like to mention his bad behavior a lot.
> 
> Second, he is the father of my children and that counted for something over the years. So he was the right partner for me then.
> 
> Setting aside those two things, the ways that he is not the right partner for me include having no respect for him because of his abusive behavior to me and the kids and we have absolutely nothing in common and have different outlooks on life. If I'm forced to spend time with him, I'm either holding my tongue and saying things in my head or drinking alcohol to get through it. I don't want to spend the next 25 years of my life living like that.


What's that religion say about cheating and lying?


----------



## Healer

Wolf1974 said:


> What's that religion say about cheating and lying?


She doesn't want to divorce because of her Christian values.


----------



## sandc

doubletrouble said:


> Well first I have to know that I am a good person, be happy with who I am. Personally, I have to be spiritually healthy as well. And I'm a romantic at heart. That said, I have, as I mentioned, spent some years living alone. That was confirmation for me that I like who I am. We all have things we work on, but the basic me, I like.
> 
> I married the woman who took my virginity at age 19. I found out later I was her second of the day. Eight years later she was cheating on me with one of her (married) professors at the college for which I was paying. Ugh. Divorce, no problem. And I was 110% invested in that relationship. It was my first, my pure, she was brilliant, yet flawed. Dream gone. Retrospectively, it didn't hurt as much as the redhead....
> 
> It was about 4 years before I thought I might have felt the beginnings of that spark again. I met a redhead -- she was such a fine woman, so energetic and fun and smart and engaging. Prior to her, I had only had flings, I was closed off. She opened me up. Maybe she thought I was a challenge. But at some point I told her wow, I never thought I'd feel this again. Big mistake... after three years she cheated on me with a (married) stockbroker. I was so heratbroken I couldn't eat, I was initally up for three days, unable to sleep. I lost 25 pounds (not a Weight Watchers recommended system!). It took me a very long time to come to grips with that heartbreak.
> 
> But I am a seeker. I know that out of billions of women out there, surely by a stroke of chance I could find one. I was in no hurry. I was at work one day and this feisty blonde gal driving a white convertible sports car drove up. We talked. I liked her. We dated, I married her. A few years later I moved out for two years. then I went back, thinking maybe I can fix this. She got cancer; I stayed out of guilt. Then she found a woman who excited her more than I did. I was merely a c0ck and a wallet to her by then. She even told me at one time to go find someone else to fvck. I called an attorney the next day.
> 
> The one I'm with now reignited that spark in me again. I was careful. I circled for a long time before dropping out of orbit and into hers. She talked the right talk, was true to herself... but that was before she hit that big 4-0 and fell for her (married) boss. I didn't know the whole story, of course, and there was some (what she called) "overlap." But here we are anyway, I am still with her and I believe in love. I believe in sharing my life, because I also believe in me. That's not a narcissistic thing, it's a desire to enhance. I enhance her, she enhances me.
> 
> I give to charities. I open doors for women. I love animals. I give generously to family. I try to be a good man. I also fall short of my idealized self and am introspective. The older I get, the more I realize how little I know. But I do know that each time I've been in love, I've felt more alive than any other time in my life. When single, I can enjoy complete freedom, and there's wonderful energy in that. But love magnifies life.
> 
> No, I can't shrug off betrayal. It hurts me very far down inside. In my younger years, I did shut off part of me. I saw that in later years. Vulnerability is dangerous to the heart. Time heals. But you have to want to heal. Otherwise you fall into life-sucking bitterness (I would, anyway). And I don't want to grow old, being bitter and angry. I'd rather bathe in life and love and all the positives I can get from those things. And to amplify it by sharing it with another human being.
> 
> Maybe I'm an extremist, maybe I'm a fool, but I know I'm alive.
> 
> I hope that gave you some insight.


Damn, DT, who's the poet now? :smthumbup:


----------



## vellocet

Zanne said:


> In a way, I felt like you were trying to trip me up in my answers and I needed to reflect for a bit.
> 
> Two things are going on. First, you may remember that I am a Christian and struggled with the idea of divorce in the beginning.


----------



## pidge70

vellocet said:


>


Awwwww!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## xakulax

Zanne said:


> In a way, I felt like you were trying to trip me up in my answers and I needed to reflect for a bit.
> 
> Two things are going on. First, you may remember that I am a *Christian and struggled with the idea of divorce in the beginning*. I very much try to justify my actions because I am also dealing with the church. I feel like I am being forced to stay with someone who I am unhappy with so I like to mention his bad behavior a lot.
> 
> Second, he is the father of my children and that counted for something over the years. So he was the right partner for me then.
> 
> Setting aside those two things, the ways that he is not the right partner for me include having no respect for him because of his abusive behavior to me and the kids and we have absolutely nothing in common and have different outlooks on life. If I'm forced to spend time with him, I'm either holding my tongue and saying things in my head or drinking alcohol to get through it.* I don't want to spend the next 25 years of my life living like that.*




At some point you have to make the decision to divorce zanne if not for your husband benefits then at lest for yours you can't keep spinning your wheels.


----------



## mablenc

sandc said:


> Damn, DT, who's the poet now? :smthumbup:


Double is awesome!


----------



## Wolf1974

Healer said:


> She doesn't want to divorce because of her Christian values.


I will state up front that I am bias and this is a trigger for me but outside the Whole "kids don't get hurt nonsense" the notion of cherry picking religion as a justifier for affairs is about a low as one can go. Unreal how often I have seen cheaters use religion as a get out of jail free card
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DoveEnigma13

Wolf1974 said:


> I will state up front that I am bias and this is a trigger for me but outside the Whole "kids don't get hurt nonsense" the notion of cherry picking religion as a justifier for affairs is about a low as one can go. Unreal how often I have seen cheaters use religion as a get out of jail free card
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

Deuteronomy 22:22


----------



## Faeleaf

Zanne,

I struggled before my divorce, too. It never felt crystal clear what I should do...not for five consecutive minutes, anyway. I probably agonized, and went back and forth over every possible variable, for months. Contemplating divorce can be very, very confusing. I can understand that, and I remember feeling awash in that uncertainty and paralyzing anxiety.

Sometimes what your brain tells you is _right_ does not agree with what you feel to be _right_, and that too can send you into a tailspin where you never see up from down or know which way you are pointing. I do not envy you your predicament.

The only thing that helped me make my final choice was *writing things down*. Not my feelings, since my feelings were so murky and conflicting anyway. *Facts.* Anything I could grasp onto and really know was solid under my feet. Over time, keeping that record, writing things down, and staring at the black and white reality of my situation, afforded me _just enough_ clarity to act, even though I still FELT conflicted and indecisive. It took a very, very long time for my feelings to catch up to my brain...sometimes I still wrestle with that, several years later.

When things get confusing, what is your weather-vane? When you want to do the right thing (and you do), what measure do you use to determine right and wrong? Take a breath, take the time to think as clearly as you can, and start writing down anything solid. Anything truly reliable. 

What do you KNOW to be true? What truths would stand up to the light of day? What foundation do you want to build your life on? What advice would you give to your daughter in this same situation? To your son, if he were your spouse? To your son, if he were your OM? 

Filter out the fears, the what-if's, the cloudy feelings, as best you can. You need clarity now, and badly. Any action taken incorrectly (and there have already been plenty, as you know) will haunt you for the rest of your life. Start filtering, start writing, and find the courage to trust yourself to find the right path, and to take it.


----------



## aug

Zanne said:


> In a way, I felt like you were trying to trip me up in my answers and I needed to reflect for a bit.
> 
> Two things are going on. First, *you may remember that I am a Christian and struggled with the idea of divorce in the beginning. *I very much try to justify my actions because I am also dealing with the church. I feel like I am being forced to stay with someone who I am unhappy with so I like to mention his bad behavior a lot.
> 
> Second, he is the father of my children and that counted for something over the years. So he was the right partner for me then.
> 
> Setting aside those two things, the ways that he is not the right partner for me include having no respect for him because of his abusive behavior to me and the kids and we have absolutely nothing in common and have different outlooks on life. If I'm forced to spend time with him, I'm either holding my tongue and saying things in my head or drinking alcohol to get through it. I don't want to spend the next 25 years of my life living like that.



It is written: "Thou shalt not commit adultery".


----------



## sidney2718

karole said:


> I mean no disrespect Sidney, but are you a lawyer? I am just curious as you seem to love to argue.


No, I'm not a lawyer. Just a person with opinions. This thread is supposed to be involved with getting lurking waywards to post here. They often don't because they are attacked almost as soon as they show up. This is especially true if they are women.

I think this is unfair. I happen to think that even wayward women are human beings and entitled to some respect. Not everybody seems to agree.


----------



## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> Oh for feks sake. I'll say it again, I phrased it from MY POV.
> 
> If the word only causes you this much of a coronary, fine, know I was speaking from what I THINK for those like minded as me
> 
> I know for me and SOME others, there is no way any reconciliation can take place until the pain of the betrayal is dealt with. Others can do both, yes.
> 
> Is that better for you now?


As a matter of fact, yes. I now understand what you intend to write but often don't.


----------



## sidney2718

Healer said:


> I typed:
> 
> Are you honestly, seriously saying you don't see that infidelity/divorce has a negative effect on children? It's DEVASTATING to children. And this devastation is caused by the WS's willful acts of selfishness and cruelty towards their entire nuclear family. Ergo - bad parent. But I think you do know that - you just don't want to face that cold, hard reality.
> 
> 
> You typed:


Originally Posted by sidney2718 


> Except that it is not reality. It is also very bad for children to grow up in a home where the parents do not love each other.


Ah yes. I thought that since you did not mention parents that stay together for the children you thought that that was an OK situation. I don't. So I said so. Note my use of the word "also", meaning to include those who divorce.


----------



## sidney2718

Healer said:


> That was the 2nd part of what you said. I'm addressing the first.


Do you mean where I said as preamble: Except that it is not reality. That was badly stated. What I meant was that the reality is that it isn't just divorced parents that can create troubles for parents, it was also the ones that don't divorce but stay for the children.

[QUOTEI don't expect you to answer, but did you cheat on your wife?[/QUOTE]

Then why do you ask?


----------



## Zanne

BetrayedDad said:


> I want to congratulate you. In a mere seven words you have captured the quintessential reason why so many adulterers cheat instead of doing the right thing and leaving their spouses.
> 
> They are cowards who fear the financial and emotional fall out of their selfish actions. So they let their spouses live in ignorance.
> 
> If YOU truely wanted to spare him you would either A) wait to carry on your relationship until after the divorce OR B) inform your spouse he is now in an open marriage. Those options are apparently not in your best interests.
> 
> You simply want your cake. How you don't hate yourself I will never understand.


OMGosh, the paycheck comment......it was something I said to him in an argument because he wouldn't take his responsibilities as a husband and father seriously. It was a low blow but I was really mad at him because he wouldn't take me serious.

He would so often turn over on the couch and say, "I'm done." And I wasn't allowed to say one word more. He just expected everything to be the way he wanted.

I was trying to tell him that there was nothing left between us. We were not even friends. He was never around. He wasn't involved with the kids - except to yell and complain about them. His only contribution to us, a paycheck.

And BTW, I said this to him way before I cheated.


----------



## Zanne

Faeleaf said:


> Zanne,
> 
> I struggled before my divorce, too. It never felt crystal clear what I should do...not for five consecutive minutes, anyway. I probably agonized, and went back and forth over every possible variable, for months. Contemplating divorce can be very, very confusing. I can understand that, and I remember feeling awash in that uncertainty and paralyzing anxiety.
> 
> Sometimes what your brain tells you is _right_ does not agree with what you feel to be _right_, and that too can send you into a tailspin where you never see up from down or know which way you are pointing. I do not envy you your predicament.
> 
> The only thing that helped me make my final choice was *writing things down*. Not my feelings, since my feelings were so murky and conflicting anyway. *Facts.* Anything I could grasp onto and really know was solid under my feet. Over time, keeping that record, writing things down, and staring at the black and white reality of my situation, afforded me _just enough_ clarity to act, even though I still FELT conflicted and indecisive. It took a very, very long time for my feelings to catch up to my brain...sometimes I still wrestle with that, several years later.
> 
> When things get confusing, what is your weather-vane? When you want to do the right thing (and you do), what measure do you use to determine right and wrong? Take a breath, take the time to think as clearly as you can, and start writing down anything solid. Anything truly reliable.
> 
> What do you KNOW to be true? What truths would stand up to the light of day? What foundation do you want to build your life on? What advice would you give to your daughter in this same situation? To your son, if he were your spouse? To your son, if he were your OM?
> 
> Filter out the fears, the what-if's, the cloudy feelings, as best you can. You need clarity now, and badly. Any action taken incorrectly (and there have already been plenty, as you know) will haunt you for the rest of your life. Start filtering, start writing, and find the courage to trust yourself to find the right path, and to take it.


Thank you! Excellent advice, for anybody really, but hopefully silent waywards reading this thread will take it to heart.

Love the part about paralyzing anxiety. Yep, that pretty much describes me most days.

So many people in my life rely on me for their happiness (in my mind). Letting them down is hard for me. When I try to stand up for myself, people think I'm selfish. I sacrificed my happiness for years (again, in my mind) and now I am on a tight rope trying to balance their happiness with mine. I'm paralyzed. I can't move forward and I can't back up because it's too late. What's done is done. I'm out in the middle. If that makes sense.


----------



## Zanne

Wolf1974 said:


> I will state up front that I am bias and this is a trigger for me but outside the Whole "kids don't get hurt nonsense" the notion of cherry picking religion as a justifier for affairs is about a low as one can go. Unreal how often I have seen cheaters use religion as a get out of jail free card
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, we don't need to drag religion into this thread. But I think you misunderstood my comment about being a Christian. I was speaking to what the bible says about marriage, not abuse or adultery.


----------



## Wolf1974

No I was clear on that. But as I said cherry picking. When you say in one breath hey I'm Christian so divorce is complicated then you can't gloss over the fact that it also has a lesson or two about being faithful as well


----------



## Zanne

Wolf1974 said:


> No I was clear on that. But as I said cherry picking. When you say in one breath hey I'm Christian so divorce is complicated then you can't gloss over the fact that it also has a lesson or two about being faithful as well


No, I'm not cherry picking. I was trying to explain to Mr. Blunt that being a Christian kept me married for many years. I said, "in the beginning" which referred to my journey here on TAM. A lot has happened since then, obviously.

I get where you're coming from though.


----------



## walkingdead

Zanne said:


> OMGosh, the paycheck comment......it was something I said to him in an argument because he wouldn't take his responsibilities as a husband and father seriously. It was a low blow but I was really mad at him because he wouldn't take me serious.
> 
> He would so often turn over on the couch and say, "I'm done." And I wasn't allowed to say one word more. He just expected everything to be the way he wanted.
> 
> I was trying to tell him that there was nothing left between us. We were not even friends. He was never around. He wasn't involved with the kids - except to yell and complain about them. His only contribution to us, a paycheck.
> 
> And BTW, I said this to him way before I cheated.


Note that you also said you were only staying now (despite his wish for you to leave so that he may move on) for financial reasons. 

you "nobley" are continuing your affair underground to "protect" him from more pain to protect your meal ticket. Disgusting. Really sickening. No doubt your religious beliefs play some role in that behavior, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

Insecurities and fear of being alone hasn't been mentioned in this thread that I've seen, but they are big problems. A lot the other stuff talked about in the thread is merely symptoms of fear and insecurity.

Waywards:
People become unhappy or bored but *they're terrified to be alone* so the search for a replacement starts. It's very important to keep plan B in place because after all 'being alone' is the worst thing possible. So they test the waters trying not to get caught (flirting). So then innocent flirting and then inappropriate flirting and maybe even a fling that doesn't work out happens. But eventually they find another person who's doing the same thing. Another flying squirrel looking for a safe limb to land on. During this time, the partner is looking less and less attractive. Partly because of the original boredom or unhappy dynamics but more so because the OM/OW is new and shiny. Add to that the mistakes BSs make. Most don't know to set solid boundaries or 180 and if they did know they wouldn't do it anyway because they're afraid too.

Betrayed:
When a partner starts losing interest like the precursor to most waywards, many people start grasping. They seem needy and clingy, or controlling, or ultra insecure because *they're terrified of being alone*. But to the future WS they become less attractive quickly.

The problem with living by fear is that principles, boundaries, inner happiness, etc, are all compromised. People feel trapped out of fear and people won't set boundaries out of fear.


----------



## karole

I love how some Christians can pick and choose their sins. Makes it hard on those of us that don't have that ability.


----------



## sidney2718

A poster to this thread has sent me a private e-mail that convinced me that I really owe Healer an apology. We have been talking past each other for some time now.

Let me reproduce the original exchange:

Originally Posted by Healer


> Are you honestly, seriously saying you don't see that infidelity/divorce has a negative effect on children? It's DEVASTATING to children. And this devastation is caused by the WS's willful acts of selfishness and cruelty towards their entire nuclear family. Ergo - bad parent. But I think you do know that - you just don't want to face that cold, hard reality.


The "you" here was not me, but someone else. I then commented:

Originally Posted by Sidney2718


> *Except that it is not reality.* It is also very bad for children to grow up in a home where the parents do not love each other.Except that it is not reality. It is also very bad for children to grow up in a home where the parents do not love each other.


The problem lies in the bolded part. What I meant was that divorce affecting children all by itself was not reality. I wanted to include children growing up in a home where the parents do not love each other.

The connection was clear to me, but not clear to others. I did not mean that it is not reality that children are affected by their parents divorce and since I never in fact said exactly that, I could not understand where the comments were coming from.

So I do owe Healer an apology and I hereby offer it to him.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *Originally Posted by skype *
> So, are there any more lurking waywards who want to post their story to see if TAM can help you?
> 
> 
> *By Regret*
> I literally just spit my drink out. That was perfect!



*So, how many waywards have posted on this thread?*


Regret, I think you are very brave and you are STRONG enough to admit some of your short coming. I would not blame you for not opening up your inter-self to this TAM crowd. However, I think we could learn a lot from you.


----------



## Zanne

walkingdead said:


> Note that you also said you were only staying now (despite his wish for you to leave so that he may move on) for financial reasons.
> 
> you "nobley" are continuing your affair underground to "protect" him from more pain to protect your meal ticket. Disgusting. Really sickening. No doubt your religious beliefs play some role in that behavior, too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let me be clear about this: I do NOT want my husband's money. He is not my meal ticket. I resent that remark. My goal is to be independent. I have myself backed into a corner right now because I live on a farm and I have no car, no job.

The reality of where we were at (he was just a paycheck) hit me one day and I threw it in his face so he could see it too. Was that the life he wanted? Because it was NOT okay with me. I wanted a REAL husband. The kids were growing up. Suddenly what we had wasn't enough. He couldn't or wouldn't step up to the challenge.

Ideally I would have divorced a year ago. That is when I finally came to terms with the end of my marriage. I have stayed this long to protect my kids - one who graduated this year and the other who finished his first year of high school. The affair complicated things. Now it's a matter of finding a job and a place to live.

The only thing he provides for me right now is a roof over my head. I pay for my own food, clothing, etc. Yes, I understand a source of contention since the money is coming from someone else. But he has no idea that the money also helped us when he was unemployed. For example, I gave him gas money. He didn't like it, but he took it. And yes, the OM told me to give it to him. He knew the situation.

I am petitioning the courts to waive the filing fee. I wanted things to settle down here so that my husband might consider a joint petition for divorce. It's much easier on all of us if we can amicably agree on everything. I think he's finally there, mentally/emotionally.

I do not want spousal support from him even though in our state I could get it because of the length of our marriage and the fact that I've been a SAHM for most of that time.

There is a lot to consider. Not every case of infidelity is the same. However, I understand that there is never a situation where it is the right choice.


----------



## Zanne

Mr Blunt said:


> *So, how many waywards have posted on this thread?*


My goal was to try and put a person behind the title "Wayward." We are all people; not the horrid names said by our spouses and posters here.

Obviously I'm not too shy to share my story, but I do have a thread of my own. I hope that others come out of the woodwork, so to speak. Or they might post their story elsewhere on the forum. I started in Considering Divorce or Separation. It's a little less......intense.


----------



## walkingdead

Zanne said:


> Let me be clear about this: I do NOT want my husband's money. He is not my meal ticket. I resent that remark. My goal is to be independent. I have myself backed into a corner right now because I live on a farm and I have no car, no job.
> 
> The reality of where we were at (he was just a paycheck) hit me one day and I threw it in his face so he could see it too. Was that the life he wanted? Because it was NOT okay with me. I wanted a REAL husband. The kids were growing up. Suddenly what we had wasn't enough. He couldn't or wouldn't step up to the challenge.
> 
> Ideally I would have divorced a year ago. That is when I finally came to terms with the end of my marriage. I have stayed this long to protect my kids - one who graduated this year and the other who finished his first year of high school. The affair complicated things. Now it's a matter of finding a job and a place to live.
> 
> The only thing he provides for me right now is a roof over my head. I pay for my own food, clothing, etc. Yes, I understand a source of contention since the money is coming from someone else. But he has no idea that the money also helped us when he was unemployed. For example, I gave him gas money. He didn't like it, but he took it. And yes, the OM told me to give it to him. He knew the situation.
> _*
> :rofl::rofl::rofl: but, did your husband know where the money came from? I thought you said you were continuing your affair secretly? I believe you stated "underground" in one of your first posts here... I will try maybe to go back and see. And, I will also try to find to quote the statement you made that he CURRENTLY is a paycheck and then went on to say that you ALSO had told him so earlier.
> *_
> 
> I do not want spousal support from him even though in our state I could get it because of the length of our marriage and the fact that I've been a SAHM for most of that time.
> 
> There is a lot to consider. Not every case of infidelity is the same. However, I understand that there is never a situation where it is the right choice.


I would be my paycheck that you may reconsider this... or come to think of it, I bet the only reason you won't be getting support is because you live somewhere such as Virginia and your ability to collect spousal support has been compromised by your lack of morals.

More likely, if you could figure out a way to dig your selfish, greedy paws into his wallet AND leave, you'd already be L-O-N-G gone.

Virginia, am I right?? 

Also, with apologies to other posters, I am a long-time lurker and I always come to late to the party, especially in these faster moving posts (I can only check-in sporadically; sometimes days in between.) Hence, the reason I haven't started my own post. (Well, that and when I am on my phone, I cannot see to type in the tiny little box.)

I am going to start a post, however, specifically asking about how infidelity has CHANGED you as a person. I hope WWs and fWWs might read our messages - especially those who believe some of us CHOOSE to wallow in our pain or that we have a CHOICE in who we are left to be after having our blinders permanently removed and struggle to regain our former selves.


----------



## Thundarr

walkingdead said:


> I am going to start a post, however, specifically asking about how infidelity has CHANGED you as a person. I hope WWs and fWWs might read our messages - especially those who believe some of us CHOOSE to wallow in our pain or that we have a CHOICE in who we are left to be after having our blinders permanently removed and struggle to regain our former selves.


That would be a great thread and I'll chime in.


----------



## Nostromo

Zanne said:


> There is a lot to consider. Not every case of infidelity is the same. However, I understand that there is never a situation where it is the right choice.


Zanne, when I read many of your posts about other cases of infidelity and some of the advice you give others I generally nod my head in agreement, but whenever you write about your affair it's almost like a different person takes over your keyboard. It seems like deep down inside you know what's right yet appear to be incapable or unwilling to apply it to your own situation except in moments of self awareness here and there. Is this a fair assessment?


----------



## Zanne

walkingdead said:


> I would be my paycheck that you may reconsider this... or come to think of it, I bet the only reason you won't be getting support is because you live somewhere such as Virginia and your ability to collect spousal support has been compromised by your lack of morals.
> 
> More likely, if you could figure out a way to dig your selfish, greedy paws into his wallet AND leave, you'd already be L-O-N-G gone.
> 
> Virginia, am I right??
> 
> Also, with apologies to other posters, I am a long-time lurker and I always come to late to the party, especially in these faster moving posts (I can only check-in sporadically; sometimes days in between.) Hence, the reason I haven't started my own post. (Well, that and when I am on my phone, I cannot see to type in the tiny little box.)
> 
> I am going to start a post, however, specifically asking about how infidelity has CHANGED you as a person. I hope WWs and fWWs might read our messages - especially those who believe some of us CHOOSE to wallow in our pain or that we have a CHOICE in who we are left to be after having our blinders permanently removed and struggle to regain our former selves.


No, he doesn't know where the money comes from, but he has his suspicions. It's not like I want to throw it in his face. He doesn't ask, I don't tell.

Yes, he's still technically only a paycheck to me because he's not providing me emotional or physical support, nor I to him, but I do cook and clean around here.

No, I'm not in Virginia, I'm in Minnesota.

I think your thread topic sounds like a great idea.


----------



## Thundarr

Zanne said:


> No, he doesn't know where the money comes from, but he has his suspicions. It's not like I want to throw it in his face. He doesn't ask, I don't tell.


Don't tell him this ever. Deny it to your grave because it's the ultimate betrayal to men with any pride. It's salt in the wound. I feel guilty for reading it actually.


----------



## Zanne

Nostromo said:


> Zanne, when I read many of your posts about other cases of infidelity and some of the advice you give others I generally nod my head in agreement, but whenever you write about your affair it's almost like a different person takes over your keyboard. It seems like deep down inside you know what's right yet appear to be incapable or unwilling to apply it to your own situation except in moments of self awareness here and there. Is this a fair assessment?


Yes, I guess it is a fair assessment, Nostromo. And you know I hate being on the wrong side of any situation. I've said it before, but if there was a way that I could legitimize my relationship with OM, I would sleep better at night. The world is a complicated place.


----------



## Regret214

Mr Blunt said:


> *So, how many waywards have posted on this thread?*
> 
> 
> Regret, I think you are very brave and you are STRONG enough to admit some of your short coming. I would not blame you for not opening up your inter-self to this TAM crowd. However, I think we could learn a lot from you.


I will try to continue to chime in for both betrayed AND wayward spouses. Believe it or not, I do feel horrible for anyone who has been betrayed because I've seen it first hand and I'll admit sometimes it is difficult to look myself in the mirror even though Dday way over 2 years ago.

If anyone wants to read my story, well...I have 3 threads that spell everything out. I will warn you they are long.

My Story 1

My Story 2

My Story 3

And to maintain a level of transparency, here is a link to Dig's first thread so everyone can see what he endured.

My Side of the Story


----------



## Rookie4

sidney2718 said:


> Please understand that I'm not trying to pick on you or anything of the sort. But there is another aspect of all this, namely your ex's feelings in the situation. And please understand that I know nothing about your situation other than what you've written here.
> 
> The thing is that she may not care if you forgive her or not. Doing it the way she did clearly was easier for her and that may be all that mattered to her.
> 
> Did any of us ask Zanne why she's doing things the way she is? Clearly she considers her marriage over and she's doing what she thinks is the easiest thing. I'd love to know her reasoning. I'd also love to know your ex's reasoning too.


Exactly so, Sid. If you don't learn from history , you are apt to repeat it. Every BS on TAM should WANT to have ws's post, in order to better understand them and the various causes for their bad decision to cheat. But too often , they will shout the WS down and heap abuse on them, until they leave. Is anybody helped?.....no.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Exactly so, Sid. If you don't learn from history , you are apt to repeat it. Every BS on TAM should WANT to have ws's post, in order to better understand them and the various causes for their bad decision to cheat. But too often , they will shout the WS down and heap abuse on them, until they leave. Is anybody helped?.....no.


Why are you so sure that BS doesn't understand why their WS cheated. I would think that is one of the first things they come to understand . Certainly was for me


----------



## GusPolinski

Regret...

Bravo.


----------



## jmiller2020

Mr Blunt said:


> *I respectfully disagree*
> 
> I think that the person that has reconciled, cheated, and a BS are more qualified than a person that has not been through any of that.
> 
> 
> Those that have been through it have a much deeper emotional experience and some have been driven to a deeper introspection about the experience than those that have never been through it.
> 
> A person that has reconciled knows what it takes to reconcile and is living proof not a theory, a person that cheated can know the pain to a deeper level and knows what it takes to rebuild, a person that is a BS is often prompted to become more self reliant and stronger and knows what it takes to get there. That makes them more qualified in most cases.
> 
> 
> If I am going to reconcile then the person that has been through successful reconciliation has more authority for me than one who has not. If I am a cheater then the person that has cheated and rebuilt their life in a positive way has more authority. If I am a BS then I know that the successful BS will understand my emotions to a deeper level and knows how I can get stronger. *Others may know how to reconcile, rebuild a cheater, and get a BS stronger but they have a theory and the reconciler, WS, and the BS have real life proof!*
> 
> In infidelity the person, a reconciler, a cheater, or a BS, is looking for trust. *Because trust has been shattered a person who has actually experience the trauma and is successful is more qualified in most cases than someone that has never n been thorough any of it*. I am sure that you can find an exception but generally the ones that have been through it and are successful have more authority in some areas than the ones who have not been thorough it. The ones that I am speaking of that have not been thorugh it are mostly of the non-professional peole that you see a lot of here on TAM.
> 
> 
> Rookie’s thread is trying to make it safe for the WS to open up. I think a few of the reasons are that we can learn from the WS and those WSs that have started rebuilding their life can be very valuable to other WSs.


 I have to agree. My thesis research was all on infidelity. I have binders full of research articles, I have read over 50 books, and interviewed/counseled clients but there is no doubt in my mind that I am not the expert. I come here (TAM) to learn from those that have unfortunately experienced it so that I can try and be better at helping others. No book can teach me what I get from your brave stories and vulnerability.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## staystrong

Thundarr said:


> Insecurities and fear of being alone hasn't been mentioned in this thread that I've seen, but they are big problems. A lot the other stuff talked about in the thread is merely symptoms of fear and insecurity.
> 
> Waywards:
> People become unhappy or bored but *they're terrified to be alone* so the search for a replacement starts. It's very important to keep plan B in place because after all 'being alone' is the worst thing possible. So they test the waters trying not to get caught (flirting). So then innocent flirting and then inappropriate flirting and maybe even a fling that doesn't work out happens. But eventually they find another person who's doing the same thing. Another flying squirrel looking for a safe limb to land on. During this time, the partner is looking less and less attractive. Partly because of the original boredom or unhappy dynamics but more so because the OM/OW is new and shiny. Add to that the mistakes BSs make. Most don't know to set solid boundaries or 180 and if they did know they wouldn't do it anyway because they're afraid too.
> 
> Betrayed:
> When a partner starts losing interest like the precursor to most waywards, many people start grasping. They seem needy and clingy, or controlling, or ultra insecure because *they're terrified of being alone*. But to the future WS they become less attractive quickly.
> 
> The problem with living by fear is that principles, boundaries, inner happiness, etc, are all compromised. People feel trapped out of fear and people won't set boundaries out of fear.



That's true about not setting boundaries out of fear.

But the BS is not making "mistakes", per se. They don't have full information, and they don't know that something is eating away at the marriage from the inside like a cancer. That can cause clinginess, sure, but I am not sure if it's out of a fear of being alone as much as it is the fear of losing what they love. An affair can throw disruptions into a marriage very quickly, and the BS has no training for that unless they've been burned in life before.


----------



## RWB

staystrong said:


> But the BS is not making "mistakes", per se.
> 
> *They don't have full information, and they don't know that something is eating away at the marriage from the inside like a cancer.*
> 
> That can cause clinginess, sure, but I am not sure if it's out of a fear of being alone as much as it is the fear of losing what they love.


Agreed, the _"lack of information"... _

A good student always studies history from multiple vantage points. And... there lies the issue, the wayward spouse hold all the cards. The BS is basically ignorant to the truth that is tearing apart the fabric of marriage. 

I like most, just couldn't, wouldn't believe she would cheat after 25 years together. *I saw our marriage falling apart and really had no clue as to what I was doing wrong.* 

Put aside the lies, the PA sex, the blame-shifting... Bad stuff for sure, but as the years pass by... hear the worst truth.

_She sat there and watched me for years... beg, plead for MC, plan special trips and vacations, the flowers, the cards, all the attention I could muster... meant nothing... it was never really about me, played me to the very end... all about her. _

Being "Clingy", give me a break... The deceit of affairs IMO is akin to bagging baby kittens and throwing them off a bridge.


----------



## Mr. Dee

sidney2718 said:


> Can you tell us why then did you have an affair?


I sure wish I could. I wish I could tell my wife. I wish I knew myself. I'm seeing a counsellor to help me figure this out. There's lots of reasons but to say them out loud they just sound like excuses and I don't accept that. Any article you read about "why people cheat" and I could say yeah, I had those; but WHY did I have those? I don't know. Yet.


----------



## vellocet

RWB said:


> I like most, just couldn't, wouldn't believe she would cheat after 25 years together. *I saw our marriage falling apart and really had no clue as to what I was doing wrong.*


Uh oh.....wait for it.......


----------



## vellocet

staystrong said:


> That's true about not setting boundaries out of fear.


This also reminds me of the comments made on the lines of, "if you don't address your shortcomings in the marriage, don't expect your spouse to not seek needs elsewhere"

If I were to stay with someone, and the problems where made clear, its obvious I need to better myself. Not only for the marriage, family, but most importantly, myself.

But if the underlying tone is that you better do things as the WS wants them and meet all of their needs, which I don't believe everyone can meet ALL of someone elses needs completely, or they'll cheat, then f**k that. I'll better myself for a relationship, myself, my kids. But I'm not going to better myself for what is tantamount to blackmail.
If I have to bend over backwards *just* to keep some entitled "poophead" from cheating, then that person isn't worth 2 squirts of piss.


----------



## jld

You must be so hurt inside, vell. You always seem so angry.

I am sorry your wife hurt you so much. She must have had a deep flaw to cheat with three different men. 

I think you did the right thing to divorce her. I hope someday you can feel peace.


----------



## vellocet

I'm at perfect peace. One need not have turmoil to despise the despicable.

And in case your wondering, yes, I'm picking up on the sarcasm.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> I'm at perfect peace. One need not have turmoil to despise the despicable.


You don't seem peaceful, to me. You seem bitter.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> You don't seem peaceful, to me. You seem bitter.


Nice try.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> Nice try.


I am not trying anything, vell. Except reaching out to you.


----------



## russell28

vellocet said:


> I'm at perfect peace. One need not have turmoil to despise the despicable.
> 
> And in case your wondering, yes, I'm picking up on the sarcasm.


I read it as someone trying to invalidate your points by painting you as an angry bitter person. Playing it as if it's an attempt to reach out and help you. Help you by calling you bitter. Did it help? How do you feel now?


----------



## jld

Well, I am certainly sincere. I was trying to reach out to you, vell. I may not be doing it in the way that speaks it best to you, but I was indeed trying from my side.


----------



## vellocet

Russell!!! You're back!

Welcome back brother!:smthumbup:


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> Well, I am certainly sincere. I was trying to reach out to you, vell. I may not be doing it in the way that speaks it best to you, but I was indeed trying from my side.


While I agree with Vellocet, I believe jld is being sincere and not trying to paint V in a bad light.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## xakulax

vellocet said:


> This also reminds me of the comments made on the lines of, "if you don't address your shortcomings in the marriage, don't expect your spouse to not seek needs elsewhere"
> 
> If I were to stay with someone, and the problems where made clear, its obvious I need to better myself. Not only for the marriage, family, but most importantly, myself.
> 
> But if the underlying tone is that you better do things as the WS wants them and meet all of their needs, which I don't believe everyone can meet ALL of someone elses needs completely, or they'll cheat, then f**k that. I'll better myself for a relationship, myself, my kids. But I'm not going to better myself for what is tantamount to blackmail.
> If I have to bend over backwards *just* to keep some entitled "poophead" from cheating, then that person isn't worth 2 squirts of piss.




:iagree:


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> Well, I am certainly sincere. I was trying to reach out to you, vell. I may not be doing it in the way that speaks it best to you, but I was indeed trying from my side.


I think she's being sincere. And yes Vell does seem bitter.


----------



## xakulax

I'm not sensing bitterness at all just someone getting fed up with people refusing to see responsibility for there action


----------



## karole

I don't see how anyone that has had a spouse betray them could not be angry and/or bitter -- at least for a time. Those are not emotions anyone chooses to have, but I think they're unavoidable when you are a person that has been betrayed by the one person you thought would never put you through something so devastating.


----------



## walkingdead

Zanne said:


> No, he doesn't know where the money comes from, but he has his suspicions. It's not like I want to throw it in his face. He doesn't ask, I don't tell.
> 
> Yes, he's still technically only a paycheck to me because he's not providing me emotional or physical support, nor I to him, but I do cook and clean around here.
> 
> No, I'm not in Virginia, I'm in Minnesota.
> 
> I think your thread topic sounds like a great idea.



So if he suspects where the money comes from, and he knows you have no job, is it fair to say he may believe you are whoring yourself out for gas money? 

Oh, wait... You kinda are.

Does OMs wife know he pays you?? You might want to be careful of "diversion of marital assets" suit. Oh, wait, you already are covering your ttacks.

Would you be okay with your husband paying his ***** with your marital assets??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## karole

walkingdead said:


> So if he suspects where the money comes from, and he knows you have no job, is it fair to say he may believe you are whoring yourself out for gas money?
> 
> Oh, wait... You kinda are.
> 
> Does OMs wife know he pays you?? You might want to be careful of "diversion of marital assets" suit. Oh, wait, you already are covering your ttacks.
> 
> Would you be okay with your husband paying his ***** with your marital assets??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Zanne has stated that the OMW does not know about the affair. I hope she finds out though. My hope is that she suspects an affair and is doing some digging.


----------



## jld

xakulax said:


> I'm not sensing bitterness at all just someone getting fed up with people refusing to see responsibility for there action


I did not mean bitter as some kind of accusation. And I am sure he feels frustrated.

I would not advise anyone to have an affair. I do not think it makes people feel good about themselves, nor does it solve problems. 

I do think people who cheat are weak, and that needs to be taken into consideration into the overall plan for healing.

Vel, I reached out because I think you need some compassion, and I was trying to give it. I have obviously been misinterpreted. I see you do not trust me. I obviously have not earned your trust.

I am not going to sit here and beg for your trust. But I am available if you want to talk. I think talking, and really trying to understand, is the only way to build bridges. And I understand that sometimes bridges cannot be built. 

And again, I am sorry that your wife cheated so many times. And I understand if all women just seem untrustworthy to you.


----------



## russell28

ConanHub said:


> While I agree with Vellocet, I believe jld is being sincere and not trying to paint V in a bad light.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calling him angry and bitter isn't trying to paint him in a good light. It insinuates that the points he is making aren't coming from a place of logic or understanding, but from a place of negative emotions. To help perhaps take it to a PM, not call him out in a public thread, and perhaps don't start out with calling him bitter if you really care to reach out.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> Calling him angry and bitter isn't trying to paint him in a good light. It insinuates that the points he is making aren't coming from a place of logic or understanding, but from a place of negative emotions. To help perhaps take it to a PM, not call him out in a public thread, and perhaps don't start out with calling him bitter if you really care to reach out.


I thought it would be safer to speak in public. Vel has not exactly been nice to me. And I have my own fear of men that I carry around.

We are all hurting, Russell. Not just any one group of us. I just thought I could take the first step.


----------



## Lovemytruck

sidney2718 said:


> The problem here is that what is a good action for some BS's is not necessarily a good action for all BS's.


True. I would say for WS that do come clean and don't continue to lie or trickletruth. It might be applicable to a short EAs or possibly a ONS. It is ALWAYS ultimately the choice of the parties involved. I said, "gives us fuel." Her point clearly demonstrates why many of us advise others who are obviously in a bad betrayal to file for a D. Just stating an opinion, not an absolute.



sidney2718 said:


> If the "kick 'em to the curb" group would rephrase that to be "perhaps you need to think about kicking 'em to the curb" I for one would be very happy. It is the absolute nature of the statement that reduces a complex human relationship to a simple slogan that bothers me very seriously.


I can agree with this in concept in part. Advising others to think is right on the money. Direct advice doesn't bother me. I figure all TAM can offer is advice. Don't you think posters know this? It is amazing to me how many BSs linger in torment for months or years trying to decide how to deal with a serial or long-term cheater. I am guessing Zanne's BH is in this camp. If he posted asking what I thought, I would not hesitate to say, "kick her to the curb." Just my opinion. No absolute rules for dumping all WSs.

I am grateful to Zanne, Regret, Tonedef, Mr. Dee, Pidge, the TAM darlings (EI, Mrs. JA, et al). I am grateful they have a place to openly discuss their views. I am grateful for Vellecet, Russell, staystrong, xakulx, and every other pissed off BS that shares their view. It makes me understand people better. My bias lies with the BSs.

Back to the brawl....


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> I did not mean bitter as some kind of accusation. And I am sure he feels frustrated.
> 
> I would not advise anyone to have an affair. I do not think it makes people feel good about themselves, nor does it solve problems.
> 
> I do think people who cheat are weak, and that needs to be taken into consideration into the overall plan for healing.
> 
> Vel, I reached out because I think you need some compassion, and I was trying to give it. I have obviously been misinterpreted. I see you do not trust me. I obviously have not earned your trust.


Kind of hard to trust sincerity from a person that doesn't think men should be taken back by their wives when they cheat, but that women should be given a 2nd chance because their cheating is the direct result of a man's neglect.

Man cheats = bad (and justifiably so) and doesn't deserve a 2nd chance (of which I don't completely disagree)

Woman cheats = must be understood that the man pushed her to it and she deserves a 2nd chance.

Kind of hard to trust someone with that mindset.


----------



## vellocet

russell28 said:


> Calling him angry and bitter isn't trying to paint him in a good light. It insinuates that the points he is making aren't coming from a place of logic or understanding, but from a place of negative emotions. To help perhaps take it to a PM, not call him out in a public thread, and perhaps don't start out with calling him bitter if you really care to reach out.


I appreciate you and X have my back. But its ok. When certain people with a particular mindset call you "bitter", its actually a compliment.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> Kind of hard to trust sincerity from a person that doesn't think men should be taken back by their wives when they cheat, but that women should be given a 2nd chance because their cheating is the direct result of a man's neglect.
> 
> Man cheats = bad (and justifiably so) and doesn't deserve a 2nd chance (of which I don't completely disagree)
> 
> Woman cheats = must be understood that the man pushed her to it and she deserves a 2nd chance.
> 
> Kind of hard to trust someone with that mindset.


You feel like I am being unfair. Even sexist, maybe. And you think that I think a woman does not have to take responsibility for her actions.


----------



## ire8179

I think he's being straight forward not bitter, it's possible to have a strong opinion about something without being bitter or angry


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> You feel like I am being unfair. Even sexist, maybe. And you think that I think a woman does not have to take responsibility for her actions.


.......



jld said:


> I would hesitate to recommend that a woman take back a cheating husband. I think there is much more hope for taking back a cheating wife, if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs.


----------



## Lovemytruck

jld said:


> You feel like I am being unfair. Even sexist, maybe. And you think that I think a woman does not have to take responsibility for her actions.


I want to jump in on this one.

This thread is not about the sexist roles in a marriage/betrayal/divorce. With that being said, yes, society tends to blame men for cheating more frequently, or causing women to cheat on them.

I believe this is why TAM has many more BHs than it has BWs.

Speaking for myself, it is not fair. Men are usually the "loser" in divorce settlements.

Life is not fair. That is just my perception.

Love women. I think many are angels on earth. I also think there are many who are pretty awful. Society seems to lump them in the "angelic" category, IMO.


----------



## jld

For sure, not all women are angels. Not all men are, either. We all have our flaws.


----------



## jld

Vel, what is it about what I think that bothers you? I feel like my quote is being held up as evidence, but I am not sure what I am being convicted of.


----------



## Lovemytruck

jld said:


> For sure, not all women are angels. Not all men are, either. We all have our flaws.


:iagree:

I also think Vellocet has a point. Women cheat = men drove her to it.

It happens very frequently. It is a huge perception in our pop (poophead) culture.


----------



## jld

Lovemytruck said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I also think Vellocet has a point. Women cheat = men drove her to it.
> 
> It happens very frequently. It is a huge perception in our pop culture.


She cheated because of her own character flaw. Not every woman cheats. Not every woman becomes an alcoholic, or lies, or gives in to other temptations.

That said, I have read many places where men cheat for variety in sex, and women cheat because of unmet emotional needs. Which do you think has a better chance of being fixed?


----------



## staystrong

Men are more famous for having MLCs and finding younger women. 

I have a good friend whose Dad had an MLC, but it didn't originate with a woman. It was more about him needing to relive his youth through playing music. A woman followed based on the environment he was in (bars), and divorce ensued.


----------



## Zanne

staystrong said:


> Men are more famous for having MLCs and finding younger women.
> 
> I have a good friend whose Dad had an MLC, but it didn't originate with a woman. It was more about him needing to relive his youth through playing music. A woman followed based on the environment he was in (bars), and divorce ensued.


Good point, but more likely a woman followed after he allowed it to happen because his midlife thinking selfishly said, "Why not? I deserve this."


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> She cheated because of her own character flaw. Not every woman cheats. Not every woman becomes an alcoholic, or lies, or gives in to other temptations.
> 
> That said, I have read many places where men cheat for variety in sex, and women cheat because of unmet emotional needs. Which do you think has a better chance of being fixed?


Translation: Men cheat because their libido can't be satisfied with one woman, women cheat because their man is not meeting their emotional needs. Do you see what they did there? Implication on the man in both instances.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> That said, I have read many places where men cheat for variety in sex, and women cheat because of unmet emotional needs. Which do you think has a better chance of being fixed?


I'd say the unmet emotional needs stand a greater chance of being fixed in the technical sense (variety is essentially non-monogomous).


----------



## Lovemytruck

jld said:


> She cheated because of her own character flaw. Not every woman cheats. Not every woman becomes an alcoholic, or lies, or gives in to other temptations


I agree. Same for men. Not bashing women. Just attempting to describe perception by society.



jld said:


> That said, I have read many places where men cheat for variety in sex, and women cheat because of unmet emotional needs. Which do you think has a better chance of being fixed?


Not disagreeing with that trend. Just saying society tends to scrutinize BHs. It is irritating when you know it is unfair in your own betrayal. It tends to cause bitterness.

I am sure BW feel like they are not pretty enough, or provide enough sex. I believe I said life is not fair.

I simply feel society assumes that when women cheat = men drove her to it.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> Translation: Men cheat because their libido can't be satisfied with one woman, women cheat because their man is not meeting their emotional needs. Do you see what they did there? Implication on the man in both instances.


It is not to blame anyone. It is to just look at it practically.

Bill Clinton is not going to change, so Hillary just accepts it. It is worth it to her. Most men cannot do that is my guess. 

I have a girlfriend who has considered cheating. I swear, if her husband would give her attention and affection, she would return it tenfold. She feels like she is starving. 

I am not saying it is always like this. But it bears some consideration.

And I've said many times that serial cheating is its own special animal.


----------



## vellocet

:slap:

Oh brother. Now even sexism and double standards are being justified.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Zanne,

Here is a can of worms question:

Do you perceive your OM as a stronger, more confident man than your husband? Was that a factor in your infidelity?

Just wanting to learn. I think your point of view might help in the endless argument over types of men that too nice.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> :slap:
> 
> Oh brother. Now even sexism and double standards are being justified.


Nothing is being justified. Just trying to look at this practically.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> Nothing is being justified. Just trying to look at this practically.


:bsflag:


----------



## Lovemytruck

staystrong said:


> Translation: Men cheat because their libido can't be satisfied with one woman, women cheat because their man is not meeting their emotional needs. Do you see what they did there? Implication on the man in both instances.


And Vellocet makes a valid point; women cheat = men drove her to it.


----------



## russell28

vellocet said:


> .......


"
I think there is much more hope for taking back a cheating wife, if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs.

"

I think there is no hope taking back a cheating wife (or husband) that thinks she (or he) deserves to have their deepest emotional needs met constantly by her husband (or wife). 

What if the deepest emotional need is some strange, something new and exciting, something to give an 'escape' from everyday routine.. hot new ho-worker.. how does a spouse fill that 'need' ?


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> She cheated because of her own character flaw. Not every woman cheats. Not every woman becomes an alcoholic, or lies, or gives in to other temptations.
> 
> That said, I have read many places where men cheat for variety in sex, and women cheat because of unmet emotional needs. Which do you think has a better chance of being fixed?


Men that cheat are dirty and bad, but women that cheat are just confused and broken... ya.. sure... women don't like sex, they like emotional needs. What a steaming pile, I don't care how many times it's written...

Females like the strange just like the males.. If they get caught cheating, it's the bad male that made them have to do it. Men also like attention.. seems both sexes like sex and attention, go figure.


----------



## vellocet

Lovemytruck said:


> And Vellocet makes a valid point; women cheat = men drove her to it.


Well, its actually not MY point. Was pointing out her mindset.


----------



## Lovemytruck

russell28 said:


> "
> I think there is much more hope for taking back a cheating wife, if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs.
> 
> "
> 
> I think there is no hope taking back a cheating wife (or husband) that thinks she (or he) deserves to have their deepest emotional needs met constantly by her husband (or wife).
> 
> What if the deepest emotional need is some strange, something new and exciting, something to give an 'escape' from everyday routine.. hot new ho-worker.. how does a spouse fill that 'need' ?


:iagree:
And we again illustrate the advice to "kick 'em to the curb."

The 180, self-improvement for a BS, and all that jazz are steps to help a BS heal and move on.

I believe it is easier to find a new path than it is to work through a R.


----------



## BetrayedDad

jld said:


> Vel, what is it about what I think that bothers you? I feel like my quote is being held up as evidence, but I am not sure what I am being convicted of.


How about sexism? Let me tell you why I disagree:

1) You presume the woman's emotional needs are actually being unmet. You have no idea whether that is true. Many woman will purposely CREATE friction and hostility in the marriage so they can point to it later and say, "See you were mean to me, you didn't meet my needs!" When the only need she was really looking to satisfy was being bored with her hubby and horny for a new guy.

2) You also presume its a man's job to make his wife happy. Happiness comes from with in and you are responsible for your own happiness. It's not a man's job to coddle his emotionally codependent wife 24/7 anymore than is it for his wife to have sex with her horny husband on command everytime he demands it. If neither party are willing to volunterily forfill the role the other spouse wants then they should consider leaving the relationship.

3) Let's presume a woman has the worst husband on the planet. Leave. It's that simple. Therefore, there will never be a valid justification for cheating because there are OTHER options. It's irrevelant how the spouse behaves. You can't rationalize being selfish when you had the choice not to be. The cheater ALWAYS owns the cheating 100%. Cheaters like to say, "well he got a speeding ticket (insert excuse here) so one one's perfect." Two wrongs don't make a right. At best, you are a POS along with your awful hubby. Again presuming the cheater is not full of it (see #1). Lying and delusion are the foundation of affairs.


----------



## russell28

vellocet said:


> Well, its actually not MY point. Was pointing out her mindset.


I think he's pointing that out, that she has that mindset.. the 'if a women cheats, the man must've not met her every deepest need every moment of every day even if it required him to turn into the trainer at the gym at random points during the day' and it's a very common one in our society as shown here often.


----------



## vellocet

Lovemytruck said:


> :iagree:
> And we again illustrate the advice to "kick 'em to the curb."
> 
> The 180, self-improvement for a BS, and all that jazz are steps to help a BS heal and move on.
> 
> I believe it is easier to find a new path than it is to work through a R.


I agree as well. 

I will need to say though that deciding one does not want to be with a cheater is not for everyone. My heart goes out, and the best of luck to anyone that wants to reconcile. I hope they get everything in life the want.


----------



## Lovemytruck

vellocet said:


> Well, its actually not MY point. Was pointing out her mindset.


I misquoted. I think this is my perception of society.

It is not to be a victim of my gender. It is just one of the things I feel is common in society. I felt it with family and friends. I have had to re-establish my credibility with people because my exWW cheated. They seem to ask "why" as if I knew.


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> She cheated because of her own character flaw. Not every woman cheats. Not every woman becomes an alcoholic, or lies, or gives in to other temptations.
> 
> That said, I have read many places where men cheat for variety in sex, and women cheat because of unmet emotional needs. *Which do you think has a better chance of being fixed?*




Neither once you have stepped outside the marriage.

I don't think you are insincere JLD. That's has not been my personal experience with you. However cheating is not a gender issue it's a character issue.

Some research has been done on the difference between why men cheat vs why women cheat and if anything I would say the opposite of you statement is more true. 

Men who are cheating for a "variety of sex" can work through that and stay with their spouse because they have the ability to disconnect from emotional ties and just have sex. In my case my x fell in love with another man and left me for him. He used her for sex and when faced with loosing 1/2 dumped her cause he had no emotional attachment to her.

Women on the other hand who disconnect from their spouse and connect to another man won't emotionally come back to the husband no matter what changes he makes. Ask Zanne 

This being said people have different responses to this. Some reconcile and others keep this as an absolute deal breaker. It was for me 100%


----------



## russell28

Lovemytruck said:


> I misquoted. I think this is my perception of society.
> 
> It is not to be a victim of my gender. It is just one of the things I feel is common in society. I felt it with family and friends. I have had to re-establish my credibility with people because my exWW cheated. They seem to ask "why" as if I knew.


My wifes family stands as an example of how women can have a chain of unmet needs spanning generations.. Mom, grandma, probably great grandma.. (will have to check ancestory.com for an A) They also seem to have a history of marrying men that have good jobs, take care of children, do everything most good fathers and husbands do, but in there somewhere they keep missing needs.. Even my wifes mom's OM that she married, and then cheated on.. must've missed a need in there at some point.


----------



## vellocet

russell28 said:


> My wifes family stands as an example of how women can have a chain of unmet needs spanning generations.. Mom, grandma, probably great grandma.. (will have to check ancestory.com for an A) They also seem to have a history of marrying men that have good jobs, take care of children, do everything most good fathers and husbands do, but in there somewhere they keep missing needs.. Even my wifes mom's OM that she married, and then cheated on.. must've missed a need in there at some point.


If unmet needs were an excuse, I'd have cheated on my x-wife every year we were married.


----------



## Lovemytruck

russell28 said:


> My wifes family stands as an example of how women can have a chain of unmet needs spanning generations.. Mom, grandma, probably great grandma.. (will have to check ancestory.com for an A) They also seem to have a history of marrying men that have good jobs, take care of children, do everything most good fathers and husbands do, but in there somewhere they keep missing needs.. Even my wifes mom's OM that she married, and then cheated on.. must've missed a need in there at some point.


Wouldn't all of this debate be easier if we could just admit that betrayal/cheating/lying is because people lack core values?

I am interested in hearing all of the WS stuff to remind me of how crazy it really is.

The devil made me do it.  

It would be easier if that was the case.


----------



## SCDP Joan

I did everything I could in my previous marriage. My ex _still_ wanted to sew his oats. I will never understand the mindset of a cheater, whether they're male or female. It goes across the bounds of gender and is not prejudice.

Now, what we do about it is another thing. I recently joined the boards more to read for my own personal emotional healing. I've learned a lot from the women who cheated. However, I've also been a little dismayed at times by the responses these cheaters get. Don't get me wrong as I don't care if they rot in hell, but wow some of the men here can't seem to focus their anger in the right direction. It's not that I blame you, it's just that I feel sorry that you haven't moved on and left this forum. That goes for the female BS as well. 

I can promise this: Once I get my "answers" and am satisfied I have a hold on the "mind of a cheater", I'm out of here. I can understand the anger that's presented in some threads because you come here every day searching for something that your spouse never answered. I think that's the shortcoming.


----------



## russell28

vellocet said:


> If unmet needs were an excuse, I'd have cheated on my x-wife every year we were married.


Interesting thread idea.. instead of the 'silly things cheaters say' type of thread, a 'what needs weren't being met while you were being cheated on' type of thread.

I know I had a few... less affection, less sex, need for honesty, need for no risk of std's, need for belief that my life was real, less hugs and kisses, less i love you's, need to know what i'm fighting about.. need a wife to wear a wedding ring and not fight about it.. need for transparency.. need for decency.


----------



## vellocet

SCDP Joan said:


> I did everything I could in my previous marriage.


The apologists are not going to believe you.


----------



## NextTimeAround

BetrayedDad said:


> How about sexism? Let me tell you why I disagree:
> 
> 1) You presume the woman's emotional needs are actually being unmet. You have no idea whether that is true. Many woman will purposely CREATE friction and hostility in the marriage so they can point to it later and say, "See you were mean to me, you didn't meet my needs!" When the only need she was really looking to satisfy was being bored with her hubby and horny for a new guy.
> 
> 2) You also presume its a man's job to make his wife happy. Happiness comes from with in and you are responsible for your own happiness. It's not a man's job to coddle his emotionally codependent wife 24/7 anymore than is it for his wife to have sex with her horny husband on command everytime he demands it. If neither party are willing to volunterily forfill the role the other spouse wants then they should consider leaving the relationship.
> 
> 3) Let's presume a woman has the worst husband on the planet. Leave. It's that simple. Therefore, there will never be a valid justification for cheating because there are OTHER options. It's irrevelant how the spouse behaves. You can't rationalize being selfish when you had the choice not to be. The cheater ALWAYS owns the cheating 100%.* Cheaters like to say, "well he got a speeding ticket (insert excuse here) so one one's perfect." Two wrongs don't make a right.* At best, you are a POS along with your awful hubby. Again presuming the cheater is not full of it (see #1). Lying and delusion are the foundation of affairs.


To take it a step further, those two issues -- cheating in a marriage and speeding on a public road -- are beyond comparison. A person has lost the argument when they grab for those straws.


----------



## russell28

SCDP Joan said:


> I can promise this: Once I get my "answers" and am satisfied I have a hold on the "mind of a cheater", I'm out of here. I can understand the anger that's presented in some threads because you come here every day searching for something that your spouse never answered. I think that's the shortcoming.


My spouse actually answered everything.. and still does. I come here, because I like forums. I also like turtles.


----------



## Almostrecovered

sexism sounds ridiculous whether coming from a man or a woman, jld


----------



## SCDP Joan

I had a box turtle as a young girl. His(?) name was Star.

I left my ex May 2013. It hurt because I loved him like no other, yet it was what I needed to do for me. I had to heal for me and I refused to let anyone stand in my way. I think that is what sometimes gets to me when I read some of these threads because I see people say they've moved on, but have they? Really?

I told myself that I'd give this place 6 months. I'm reading both the cheater side and the BS side. I read the cheater side from both male and female perspectives to see the dynamic. I read the BS side to connect, which sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. 

I didn't "nuke" my ex. I told him in plain language that he hurt us. We didn't have children and that may have made it "easier" on me. I simply let him go and stopped looking back. As my 1 year anniversary for catching him came up, I did a Google search on healing. Eventually, I found this place. I seem to have a love/hate relationship with it. I'm not very active, but today is my day off and it's raining outside. I'm feeling blah and I guess misery loves company.


----------



## russell28

SCDP Joan said:


> I had a box turtle as a young girl. His(?) name was Star.
> 
> I left my ex May 2013. It hurt because I loved him like no other, yet it was what I needed to do for me. I had to heal for me and I refused to let anyone stand in my way. I think that is what sometimes gets to me when I read some of these threads because I see people say they've moved on, but have they? Really?
> 
> I told myself that I'd give this place 6 months. I'm reading both the cheater side and the BS side. I read the cheater side from both male and female perspectives to see the dynamic. I read the BS side to connect, which sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.
> 
> I didn't "nuke" my ex. I told him in plain language that he hurt us. We didn't have children and that may have made it "easier" on me. I simply let him go and stopped looking back. As my 1 year anniversary for catching him came up, I did a Google search on healing. Eventually, I found this place. I seem to have a love/hate relationship with it. I'm not very active, but today is my day off and it's raining outside. I'm feeling blah and I guess misery loves company.


Sorry you are miserable.. I do hope you heal. You can't always connect with everyone on here because each person is so unique, but it does give a ton of insight into the thought process on both sides.


----------



## Lovemytruck

SCDP Joan said:


> I had a box turtle as a young girl. His(?) name was Star.
> 
> I left my ex May 2013. It hurt because I loved him like no other, yet it was what I needed to do for me. I had to heal for me and I refused to let anyone stand in my way. I think that is what sometimes gets to me when I read some of these threads because I see people say they've moved on, but have they? Really?
> 
> I told myself that I'd give this place 6 months. I'm reading both the cheater side and the BS side. I read the cheater side from both male and female perspectives to see the dynamic. I read the BS side to connect, which sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.
> 
> I didn't "nuke" my ex. I told him in plain language that he hurt us. We didn't have children and that may have made it "easier" on me. I simply let him go and stopped looking back. As my 1 year anniversary for catching him came up, I did a Google search on healing. Eventually, I found this place. I seem to have a love/hate relationship with it. I'm not very active, but today is my day off and it's raining outside. I'm feeling blah and I guess misery loves company.


A lurking BW! 

Glad you joined in. I also wanted to limit my visiting to TAM, as I felt I have healed. My sticking around now is for different reasons:

1) work can be boring

2) I learn so much from reading different POVs

3) I feel attached to these idiots

4) It makes me feel good when I make a difference to someone who has been through Hell.

Good you are learning with us. God bless your broken heart.


----------



## russell28

I should share my answers with everyone, since my wife was kind enough to be honest with me after ripping my heart out.

1. People cheat because they want to, and they think they can get away with it. They lie to themselves until they convince themselves that what they are doing is fine and dandy, not hurting anyone, in fact it's making everyone happy! They are special snowflakes that deserve to have two people love them, and have special secrets that give them a feeling of power and control. They deserve it.. they deserve to be happy. Everyone is doing it! They deserve to have their deepest needs met every moment of every day or they will flirt with co-workers or the pool boy to punish you. Tell the new friend about how bad you are.. and how good they look. It feels good.. all tingly... ooh, new love feeling, better than new car smell...

There's not much to learn, it's a pretty simple formula.. choose to do the right thing or wrong thing, some do the right thing, some do the wrong thing. Some seek out the wrong thing.


----------



## 1812overture

SCDP Joan said:


> I left my ex May 2013.


And you've re-married? In Askari's nudity thread, over in the Sex in Marriage forum, you mention a husband and kids. 

Or am I confusing you with someone else? 

If not, does your husband know of your search for healing? Is he helping, or can he even help?


----------



## Lovemytruck

SCDP Joan said:


> *I did everything I could in my previous marriage. My ex still wanted to sew his oats.* I will never understand the mindset of a cheater, whether they're male or female. It goes across the bounds of gender and is not prejudice.


Part of this very thread helps us see that we "did everything" and it was not enough.

You are looking inside for your part of the cheating, but you know it was not your fault. That is also a point we often attempt to make. It is good you are seeing this and understanding it. It helps us heal.

This thread has been particularly good, imo, for demonstrating the disconnect between the loyal and the disloyal.

I look forward to you creating a thread or adding to threads in the future.


----------



## Zanne

Lovemytruck said:


> Zanne,
> 
> Here is a can of worms question:
> 
> Do you perceive your OM as a stronger, more confident man than your husband? Was that a factor in your infidelity?
> 
> Just wanting to learn. I think your point of view might help in the endless argument over types of men that too nice.


Stronger and more confident? Not necessarily. Around these parts he would be considered very beta.

That said, OM has many qualities and ones that I respect and admire, so I am drawn to him and loyal to him in a way that I never was with my husband. He makes me feel loved and respected and safe. He's not perfect and we have disagreements, but we are both very motivated to work through issues. Again, not the case with my marriage; nor his.

Regarding needs being filled, I think the term "emotional needs" is subjective. Seriously, if you take Dr. Harley's list and you look at any of the needs, you are not going to want to have them filled by someone you don't even like or respect.

So I guess if you're at that point in your relationship, how do you fix that? I obviously still harbor resentment for my husband and I still need to work through that, even though we are divorcing. The OMW disrespected him so often that he decided at a certain point in their marriage that he was not trying anymore.

How do people get to that point? How do you walk away from 25 years? It's not out of boredom or wanting something strange. It's about feeling respected. AND not believing that it will ever be different.

In my case, I'm bailing - it's the easy way out. I have my supporters since my husband was abusive, but I'm not proud of the fact that I wouldn't stay and put the hard work into my marriage like many here have done (I'm talking about before the affair).

I will admit that I wasn't thinking about anyone but myself when I crossed the line with OM. I was done with my marriage. But I never thought it through. I didn't have a plan; I still don't have a firm plan.

So my husband is stuck supporting me because he can't throw me out. I'm definitely not proud of that. It makes me feel better to bring up the ways he contributed to our dysfunction. But he gets to play the moral card and he does every chance he gets.

I'm in the middle of all of this so it's hard for me to see the lessons besides the obvious "don't cheat." It's also very easy for me to want to justify. Maybe ask me in five years what my thoughts are on the whole affair.


----------



## BetrayedDad

SCDP Joan said:


> I can promise this: Once I get my "answers" and am satisfied I have a hold on the "mind of a cheater", I'm out of here.


So you plan on being here indefinitely?



SCDP Joan said:


> I told myself that I'd give this place 6 months.


Yeah, that's much more realistic.


Or I can sum it up for you in a few words and you can go about life:

*They're selfish cheaters because they want to be.*


----------



## Lovemytruck

Zanne said:


> Stronger and more confident? Not necessarily. Around these parts he would be considered very beta.
> 
> That said, OM has many qualities and ones that I respect and admire, so I am drawn to him and loyal to him in a way that I never was with my husband. He makes me feel loved and respected and safe. He's not perfect and we have disagreements, but we are both very motivated to work through issues. Again, not the case with my marriage; nor his.
> 
> Regarding needs being filled, I think the term "emotional needs" is subjective. Seriously, if you take Dr. Harley's list and you look at any of the needs, you are not going to want to have them filled by someone you don't even like or respect.
> 
> So I guess if you're at that point in your relationship, how do you fix that? I obviously still harbor resentment for my husband and I still need to work through that, even though we are divorcing. The OMW disrespected him so often that he decided at a certain point in their marriage that he was not trying anymore.
> 
> How do people get to that point? How do you walk away from 25 years? It's not out of boredom or wanting something strange. It's about feeling respected. AND not believing that it will ever be different.
> 
> In my case, I'm bailing - it's the easy way out. I have my supporters since my husband was abusive, but I'm not proud of the fact that I wouldn't stay and put the hard work into my marriage like many here have done (I'm talking about before the affair).
> 
> I will admit that I wasn't thinking about anyone but myself when I crossed the line with OM. I was done with my marriage. But I never thought it through. I didn't have a plan; I still don't have a firm plan.
> 
> So my husband is stuck supporting me because he can't throw me out. I'm definitely not proud of that. It makes me feel better to bring up the ways he contributed to our dysfunction. But he gets to play the moral card and he does every chance he gets.
> 
> I'm in the middle of all of this so it's hard for me to see the lessons besides the obvious "don't cheat." It's also very easy for me to want to justify. Maybe ask me in five years what my thoughts are on the whole affair.


You get the award for taking hits, and still coming back.

Thanks for the reply. It actually helps me see your issues better.

Whew! I am calling it a weekend! Off to a work meeting then home for a date with my smokin' hot wife (#2).

Hope you all have a good discussion without me.


----------



## xakulax

Unmet needs have always been a rather nebulous argument post adultery because the wayward spouse has lost all credibility in the relationship the betrayed spouse has no way of clearly and truly knowing whether this argument is true or simple more gas lighting and deception It's impossible to know whether to argument of neglect is true or just the wayward spouse trying to rewrite history to justify sympathy for a second chance..




One could also view this argument as a form of emotional blackmail where buy one spouse clams unmet needs as a justification for their betrayal to gain a more dominant hand in a relationship "If you don't do this for me I can't guarantee I won't cheat/ hurt you again type of thing" this type of emotional manipulation does indeed happen and there is no clear way for a betrayed spouse to know what if any there role was..



Something I just don't understand why is it in our society/culture we criticize those who divorce before cheating due to marital issues for quote on quote "giving up" but when one spouse commits adultery you are expected if not obligated to give them a second chance :scratchhead:


----------



## jld

Wolf1974 said:


> [/B][/B]
> Neither once you have stepped outside the marriage.
> 
> I don't think you are insincere JLD. That's has not been my personal experience with you. However cheating is not a gender issue it's a character issue.
> 
> Some research has been done on the difference between why men cheat vs why women cheat and if anything I would say the opposite of you statement is more true.
> 
> Men who are cheating for a "variety of sex" can work through that and stay with their spouse because they have the ability to disconnect from emotional ties and just have sex. In my case my x fell in love with another man and left me for him. He used her for sex and when faced with loosing 1/2 dumped her cause he had no emotional attachment to her.
> 
> Women on the other hand who disconnect from their spouse and connect to another man won't emotionally come back to the husband no matter what changes he makes. Ask Zanne
> 
> This being said people have different responses to this. Some reconcile and others keep this as an absolute deal breaker. It was for me 100%


Well, Wolf, I think your examples are a good illustration of what I've read. Men cheat for sex and women cheat for attention. And some of both cheat because they are serial cheaters.

No one has to take anyone back. But if you want to, I think you may have more luck if you are taking back a wife. And I would only recommend it if she comes crawling and begging and completely humble. My opinion.


----------



## Almostrecovered

My wife didn't cheat for attention. She cheated to experience a new partner, so I shouldn't have taken her back?


----------



## Almostrecovered

This is why generalities are dangerous

Men cheat
Women cheat
Christians chest
Jews cheat
Atheists cheat
Whites cheat
Blacks cheat
Poor people cheat
Rich people cheat
Housewives cheat
Doctors cheat
Construction workers cheat
IT workers cheat
Young adults cheat
Middle aged adults cheat
Seniors cheat

People in unhappy marriages cheat
People in a so so marriage cheat
People who think they are happy in their marriage cheat


No marriage is immune to the possibility of cheating

All walks of life have cheated
The myriad of "reasons" only mitigates the condition of the marriage prior to the decision to cheat


----------



## jld

Almostrecovered said:


> My wife didn't cheat for attention. She cheated to experience a new partner, so I shouldn't have taken her back?


You are welcome to do whatever you want. I am just saying that what I have read says that men tend to cheat for sex (did you read wolf's example of no emotional ties?) and women tend to cheat for attention. There was a guy here once who said for a few compliments, many married women were willing to have sex with him.


----------



## Almostrecovered

To me you're it's like you're saying that IF husband pays attention to wife then she won't cheat or will stop cheating

That is incorrect

Time and time again we see that to be the opposite

Reasons are often justifications to indulge in selfish behavior

Putting aside serial cheats who are mentally damaged folks, it boils down to whether the WS sees the light and realizes how destructive their actions are


----------



## jld

Almostrecovered said:


> To me you're it's like you're saying that IF husband pays attention to wife then she won't cheat or will stop cheating
> 
> That is incorrect
> 
> Time and time again we see that to be the opposite
> 
> Reasons are often justifications to indulge in selfish behavior
> 
> Putting aside serial cheats who are mentally damaged folks, it boils down to whether the WS sees the light and realizes how destructive their actions are


I'm sure every case is different. And again, if I were a man, I would only take back a completely repentant, contrite wife. And he certainly is not obligated to.


----------



## Almostrecovered

jld said:


> I'm sure every case is different.




See? That wasn't so hard!


----------



## jld

Almostrecovered said:


> See? That wasn't so hard!


And your point is?


----------



## xakulax

Almostrecovered said:


> This is why generalities are dangerous
> 
> Men cheat
> Women cheat
> Christians chest
> Jews cheat
> Atheists cheat
> Whites cheat
> Blacks cheat
> Poor people cheat
> Rich people cheat
> Housewives cheat
> Doctors cheat
> Construction workers cheat
> *IT workers cheat*
> Young adults cheat
> Middle aged adults cheat
> Seniors cheat
> 
> People in unhappy marriages cheat
> People in a so so marriage cheat
> People who think they are happy in their marriage cheat
> 
> 
> No marriage is immune to the possibility of cheating
> 
> All walks of life have cheated
> The myriad of "reasons" only mitigates the condition of the marriage prior to the decision to cheat




Hey I'm an IT worker I don't have time to cheat I'm too busy trying to make my computer go 5% more faster then it was yesterday LOL


----------



## Almostrecovered

jld said:


> And your point is?



Generalities don't teach us much nor should they make tenets


----------



## jld

Almostrecovered said:


> Generalities don't teach us much nor should they make tenets


You don't want to be judged against the idea that if a wife cheats, it is because she lacked attention from her husband.

The cheating is still on her, you know. Whatever her reason, it does not justify it. It is something to think about for the future, though, or at least a lesson for other people.


----------



## Served Cold

The bitter card is used often as a straw man tactic. Ironically ,in order to be a cheater there's a bitterness in it, but even worse it's coupled with deceit. In a twisted way a cheater gets satisfaction from being deceitful and it's a bitter and ugly satisfaction. 

Not surprising that betrayed spouses are often labeled as bitter. It's a manipulative tactic and quite ironic. Cheaters are quite bitter and are passive aggressive. Instead they cheat and of course , give their affair partner the impression they're such good folk. 
Affairs are a dance of delusion and cowardice but it also comes with profitable ego stroking. 

In actuality cheaters are bitter and if a betrayed spouse sees through what a cheater is really about, their conclusions may be attacked and in a comical way they are branded as bitter.

Betrayed spouses are not bitter if they no longer eat **** sandwiches. Not buying **** does not make you bitter. It's the bitter cheaters and cheater apologists who keep **** sandwiches on the menu.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> No one has to take anyone back. But if you want to, I think you may have more luck if you are taking back a wife. And I would only recommend it if she comes crawling and begging and completely humble. My opinion.


That's not what you said. You put it on the man and said that you recommend a man takes back a woman if he can meet her deepest emotional needs. And that doesn't sound much like crawling and begging to me. That sounds like "as a man you need to swallow your pride and cater to your WW".


----------



## Served Cold

jld said:


> Well, Wolf, I think your examples are a good illustration of what I've read. Men cheat for sex and women cheat for attention. And some of both cheat because they are serial cheaters.
> 
> No one has to take anyone back. But if you want to, I think you may have more luck if you are taking back a wife. And I would only recommend it if she comes crawling and begging and completely humble. My opinion.


The underlying tone of your post is quite ugly.

I would never wish that anyone be reduced to crawl to benefit anyone's benefit. 

Humility and forgiveness is linked with respect. It's not about belittling. 

Standing up for oneself shouldn't be about reducing some one else.


----------



## tonedef

Food for thought. In most cases of cheating women, the level of bitterness and resentment makes a woman hate the person she sees in the mirror. Mix that with poor boundaries and low morals and of course she'll be more vulnerable to a breath of fresh air. The emotions involved start to distract her from what is making her bitter. Also I have to wonder if history rewriting is in fact a woman nitpicking the petty sht- which is usually a symptom of a larger problem. Because we all know it is not just about the hair in the sink. In a ww mind, these reasons are legit bc they are being fueled by bitterness. And in some cases a woman just detaches which sets the stage if mixed with poor boundaries. A waw who cant or wont leave comes to mind. Oh and I dont get private messaging on my outdated phone. Just wanted to give heads up so i dont come off as rude if anyone tried.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> That's not what you said. You put it on the man and said that you recommend a man takes back a woman if he can meet her deepest emotional needs. And that doesn't sound much like crawling and begging to me. That sounds like "as a man you need to swallow your pride and cater to your WW".


I have said many places and many times that anyone can get a divorce at any time, vell. No one is obligated to do anything. But if a man wants his wife back, then I think he needs to look at why the affair happened in the first place.

And I will say that this last hour I have been thinking about what AR said about how his wife may have wanted attention, but not from him. 

I have to say, that is a new thought for me. I assumed the wife just wanted attention. It did not occur to me that attention from the husband was not what was wanted. Yes, naive of me.

And of course she needs to be contrite. Cheating is not healthy. It will not make her feel proud of herself. It will probably bother her conscience the rest of her life.

There will have to be humility on both sides, though. Humility is just deep honesty, imo. A thorough conscience search.

I am not your enemy, vell. And I certainly do not recommend cheating. I do think it is helpful to understand a problem, though, if we want to solve it.


----------



## tonedef

Before anyone asks lol I simply detached- fell for someone else- and we are married now. I just made those assumptions by reading this forum. And I also want to make it clear i do not excuse cheating! I didnt make excuses in my last m.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soccermom2three

doubletrouble said:


> My apologies then.
> 
> Other posters have, since I did that, asked you if you only think men will cheat, given the right circumstances.
> 
> So you don't believe women will cheat, just us men?


Oh, I believe women can cheat. I'm watching my SIL do it to my BIL in real time. She's been very cruel.

Also, I've been married to a man for 24 years that I believe has never cheated on me. Logically I know not all men cheat but I've sure known a lot more men than women that have cheated.


----------



## vellocet

tonedef said:


> Before anyone asks lol I simply detached- fell for someone else- and we are married now. I just made those assumptions by reading this forum. And I also want to make it clear i do not excuse cheating! I didnt make excuses in my last m.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are one of the VERY few WSs here that did not make excuses.

So getting back to the premise of the thread, you might have been met with some hostility from maybe what? One poster?

But then the rest of us that probably are classified as the "poopheads" that have a huge distaste for cheaters, I hope you feel we debated with you civilly, because I respect the way you talk about your situation and how you handled it.

Still despise that you cheated in the first place, but you didn't blame him, and I respect you for that.


----------



## vellocet

soccermom2three said:


> Oh, I believe women can cheat. I'm watching my SIL do it to my BIL in real time. She's been very cruel.


Well you need to tell BIL to take her back because she did it because he neglected her in some way. 




> Also, I've been married to a man for 24 years that I believe has never cheated on me. Logically I know not all men cheat but I've sure known a lot more men than women that have cheated.


And I don't disagree that men cheat more, but I think the percentages are probably not that far off.

But like I said in another thread. For every POS man that cheats, there is a POS woman that knows he's married and obliges him, and vice versa. And that, IMO, doesn't help either gender get a leg up on that high horse. 

There wouldn't be cheaters if there aren't people willing to help them. This of course doesn't count the people that don't know the person is cheating. But I think the numbers lie with those that know they are the OM/OW


----------



## Thundarr

staystrong said:


> That's true about not setting boundaries out of fear.
> 
> But the BS is not making "mistakes", per se. They don't have full information, and they don't know that something is eating away at the marriage from the inside like a cancer. That can cause clinginess, sure, but I am not sure if it's out of a fear of being alone as much as it is the fear of losing what they love. An affair can throw disruptions into a marriage very quickly, and the BS has no training for that unless they've been burned in life before.


:iagree:
Fear can be a good motivator. I was thinking more about when it's so paralyzing that people compromise their principles. And you're right that most of us don't know how to navigate the storm of infidelity unless we've had a practice run .


----------



## Almostrecovered

vellocet said:


> You are one of the VERY few WSs here that did not make excuses.
> 
> 
> 
> So getting back to the premise of the thread, you might have been met with some hostility from maybe what? One poster?
> 
> 
> 
> But then the rest of us that probably are classified as the "poopheads" that have a huge distaste for cheaters, I hope you feel we debated with you civilly, because I respect the way you talk about your situation and how you handled it.
> 
> 
> 
> Still despise that you cheated in the first place, but you didn't blame him, and I respect you for that.



I'm willing to bet if she came here during the affair or right after she most likely would have made excuses

Which brings up the whole point of the thread- isn't there a better way to educate and redirect a WS than bashing them?

I think there is, and it takes more patience than most of us as bs's can muster. But I do believe some excellent posters here can do just that (befree for example) And YES you will have the "Zanne's" (sorry to single you out but it's very evident you're stuck in your viewpoint) dropping by as well that will frustrate the ever loving crap outta you too. Goes with the territory


----------



## vellocet

Almostrecovered said:


> I'm willing to bet if she came here during the affair or right after she most likely would have made excuses
> 
> Which brings up the whole point of the thread- isn't there a better way to educate and redirect a WS than bashing them?


Sure if you are talking about pure obscene name calling and unadulterated anger bashing, which yes, does go on.

But too many times calling them out on their entitlement mindset is seen as bashing. If you sugarcoat that, they will more than likely keep feeling entitled, and if they keep feeling entitled to their affair, then their BS will get nothing but, "I cheated because you.....". And unless the BS is a total lapdog, that kind of blameshifting isn't going to sit well with them.


----------



## karole

jld said:


> I have said many places and many times that anyone can get a divorce at any time, vell. No one is obligated to do anything. But if a man wants his wife back, then I think he needs to look at why the affair happened in the first place.
> 
> And I will say that this last hour I have been thinking about what AR said about how his wife may have wanted attention, but not from him.
> 
> I have to say, that is a new thought for me. I assumed the wife just wanted attention. It did not occur to me that attention from the husband was not what was wanted. Yes, naive of me.
> 
> And of course she needs to be contrite. Cheating is not healthy. It will not make her feel proud of herself. It will probably bother her conscience the rest of her life.
> 
> There will have to be humility on both sides, though. Humility is just deep honesty, imo. A thorough conscience search.
> 
> I am not your enemy, vell. And I certainly do not recommend cheating. I do think it is helpful to understand a problem, though, if we want to solve it.


JLD, I think that there are a lot of cheaters that don't have a conscience though.


----------



## jld

Served Cold said:


> The underlying tone of your post is quite ugly.
> 
> I would never wish that anyone be reduced to crawl to benefit anyone's benefit.
> 
> Humility and forgiveness is linked with respect. It's not about belittling.
> 
> Standing up for oneself shouldn't be about reducing some one else.


I should not have used that imagery. What I meant was that she should be completely contrite. 

And really, both spouses need to be ready to take a long, hard, totally honest look at the relationship. I do not know how there will be healing without deep humility.


----------



## jld

karole said:


> JLD, I think that there are a lot of cheaters that don't have a conscience though.


I really hope that somewhere, underneath the posturing, there really is a conscience. But I am sure in some cases, you are right, karole.


----------



## Almostrecovered

vellocet said:


> Sure if you are talking about pure obscene name calling and unadulterated anger bashing, which yes, does go on.
> 
> 
> 
> But too many times calling them out on their entitlement mindset is seen as bashing. If you sugarcoat that, they will more than likely keep feeling entitled, and if they keep feeling entitled to their affair, then their BS will get nothing but, "I cheated because you.....". And unless the BS is a total lapdog, that kind of blameshifting isn't going to sit well with them.



It's all about how you approach things

Attacking someone will make them defensive and usually result in them disregarding anything you have to say. Communicating in a way that effectively expresses your viewpoint that doesn't put the person into a defensive position and still gets the message across of how destructive, anti-productive, amoral and hurtful their behavior is, well yeah, that's a difficult thing to do and I don't see it much here.


----------



## vellocet

Almostrecovered said:


> It's all about how you approach things


I'm probably one of the hardest on cheaters here there is, but I still try to tone it down somewhat. 

But here is the thing. We can tone it down, treat them with kid gloves. And when they point the finger at their spouse, to me they are in a sense bashing their spouse. 

So question is, how do you treat them with kid gloves when they do this? I have simply replied to WS telling them something on the line of "No, your H/W is not responsible for your affair, that is 100% on you. If there were problems in the marriage, you should have dealt with them properly or left the marriage if nothing changes." And even comments like that brought the defensiveness.




> Attacking someone will make them defensive and usually result in them disregarding anything you have to say. Communicating in a way that effectively expresses your viewpoint that doesn't put the person into a defensive position and still gets the message across of how destructive, anti-productive, amoral and hurtful their behavior is, well yeah, that's a difficult thing to do and I don't see it much here.


Ok, then lets pose a scenario. And I don't do this to discount what you are saying, because I'm not. I'm genuinely curious to debate whether a particular way of handling a blameshifter works.

WS comes in, says they wouldn't have cheated if their H/W wouldn't have neglected to them. They are told that their H/W are not responsible for their choices. They don't care they still feel entitled to go outside the marriage.

How would you handle that?


----------



## xakulax

soccermom2three said:


> Oh, I believe women can cheat. I'm watching my SIL do it to my BIL in real time. She's been very cruel.
> 
> Also, I've been married to a man for 24 years that I believe has never cheated on me. Logically I know not all men cheat but I've sure known a lot *more men than women that have cheated*.



I believe in might be more 50 50 really the only difference is men are more likely to get caught.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I'm not the best at it either and I wish befree was here to answer

But I found the most effective way of expressing viewpoints is explain yourself by avoiding absolutes (stop saying never or always) and modify your opinion to express that it's personal- ie. "*I feel *that cheaters often exaggerate marital problems to justify their behavior"


----------



## Thundarr

vellocet said:


> I'm probably one of the hardest on cheaters here there is, but I still try to tone it down somewhat.
> 
> But here is the thing. We can tone it down, treat them with kid gloves. And when they point the finger at their spouse, to me they are in a sense bashing their spouse.
> 
> So question is, how do you treat them with kid gloves when they do this? I have simply replied to WS telling them something on the line of *"No, your H/W is not responsible for your affair, that is 100% on you.* If there were problems in the marriage, you should have dealt with them properly or left the marriage if nothing changes." And even comments like that brought the defensiveness.


That's the right thing to say and hard to argue with. Defensiveness probably depends on the comments and tone before and after it in the thread.


----------



## Almostrecovered

And please do recognize that I agree completely that a good chunk will never come around, but I feel that to reach those that will you do have to start with more tempered approach


----------



## Faeleaf

Almostrecovered said:


> It's all about how you approach things
> 
> Attacking someone will make them defensive and usually result in them disregarding anything you have to say. Communicating in a way that effectively expresses your viewpoint that doesn't put the person into a defensive position and still gets the message across of how destructive, anti-productive, amoral and hurtful their behavior is, well yeah, that's a difficult thing to do and I don't see it much here.


Human beings are wired to agree with our friends, and disagree with our enemies. It's biology. 

When we are harsh, sarcastic, angry etc, we are pre-disposing the hearer to reject our message. It becomes nearly impossible for them to accept what we have to say, regardless of how cleverly worded or solid our arguments are. The protective wall goes up automatically, shielding the recipient from a message that might otherwise penetrate them and make a difference.

The reverse is also true. When you build someone up, convince them you are their friend, show respect and encourage, it becomes nearly impossible for the hearer to NOT agree with what you say. You have pre-disposed them to be receptive to your words, and there is no protective shield in sight. It takes work to get to that place, but it's frequently very productive. This is when they are susceptible to statements such as, "You want to do the right thing, even though it's difficult," or "I believe my trust in you isn't unfounded, and you are going to make amends." 

Of course all the encouragement in the world cannot fix a broken character, and I'm not claiming friendship is a magic wand to wrongdoers. I will say I believe strongly that it gets FAR more results than the hard-line approach of tearing people down. 

I also want to say that I COMPLETELY understand that what I've suggested (the encouraging and supportive approach) is IMPOSSIBLE for some BS's to attempt. Your particular history and experiences make this utterly unpalatable, regardless of how well it works. I get that, and I support you choosing not to.


----------



## Hope1964

vellocet said:


> For every POS man that cheats, there is a POS woman that knows he's married and obliges him, and vice versa.


Just ducking in to say that this is not the case 100% of the time - many men cheat with hookers or other men too, and women cheat with other women or by lying to some random guy in a bar or whatever.

Carry on


----------



## vellocet

Almostrecovered said:


> I'm not the best at it either and I wish befree was here to answer
> 
> But I found the most effective way of expressing viewpoints is explain yourself by avoiding absolutes (stop saying never or always) and modify your opinion to express that it's personal- ie. "*I feel *that cheaters often exaggerate marital problems to justify their behavior"


You know what, next time in a WS thread, I'll give that a shot if they have that entitled attitude. We'll see what happens.


----------



## Hope1964

Technically it should be "I think" and not 'I feel'.

Or you could say that YOUR cheating lying POS ww did whatever, and not that ALL ww's do it.


----------



## vellocet

Hope1964 said:


> Just ducking in to say that this is not the case 100% of the time - many men cheat with hookers or other men too, and women cheat with other women or by lying to some random guy in a bar or whatever.
> 
> Carry on


Which is why I also said:



> This of course doesn't count the people that don't know the person is cheating. But I think the numbers lie with those that know they are the OM/OW


----------



## Almostrecovered

Hope1964 said:


> Technically it should be "I think" and not 'I feel'.
> 
> 
> 
> Or you could say that YOUR cheating lying POS ww did whatever, and not that ALL ww's do it.



Agreed


----------



## soccermom2three

karole said:


> Zanne has stated that the OMW does not know about the affair. I hope she finds out though. My hope is that she suspects an affair and is doing some digging.


From Zanne's posts on her thread, the OMW's knows something is wrong. If I remember correctly the woman has gone a bit crazy on the OM. Probably because of his gas lighting, blame shifting, etc. You know the drill.


----------



## Almostrecovered

vellocet said:


> You know what, next time in a WS thread, I'll give that a shot if they have that entitled attitude. We'll see what happens.



Please note I said that it won't work all the time so don't give up until the sample size is more conclusive

Glad I reached you vello

We can be bff's now


----------



## MattMatt

soccermom2three said:


> From Zanne's posts on her thread, the OMW's knows something is wrong. If I remember correctly the woman has gone a bit crazy on the OM. Probably because of his gas lighting, blame shifting, etc. You know the drill.


Knowing something is wrong and working out why it is wrong are two entirely different things.


----------



## vellocet

Almostrecovered said:


> Please note I said that it won't work all the time so don't give up until the sample size is more conclusive


Oh no, I'm not going to do this as an experiment to prove me right. I'm really interested to see if you kill them with kindness if they will stop acting like its their BS's fault. 

If they do, then hopefully the very small list of WSs that I admire will grow.




> Glad I reached you vello
> 
> We can be bff's now


:woohoo: a new fwend.

Cheaters still piss me off though :cussing:issed:

:gun: *cheating f***kers*


----------



## Philat

Rookie right about now:


----------



## Served Cold

jld said:


> I should not have used that imagery. What I meant was that she should be completely contrite.
> 
> And really, both spouses need to be ready to take a long, hard, totally honest look at the relationship. I do not know how there will be healing without deep humility.


Backtracking.....you said what you said. Why try to sugar coat now. 

I don't accept your new version of what you said. I expect that my not buying your new and improved message I may be called bitter or whatever. 

It's smoke and mirrors and when called on it, the ball is placed in the other court. It's interesting how mean and callous remarks in the hands of someone who easily backtracks so obviously manipulates the narrative.


----------



## soulpotato

sidney2718 said:


> I don't think you have anything to apologize for. You posted about your truths. One should not have to apologize for them.


Thank you, Sidney. I apologized because I felt I was harsher than I would usually be (due to my own emotional state as of late), and I certainly didn't want to trigger anyone or cause pain.


----------



## jld

Served Cold said:


> Backtracking.....you said what you said. Why try to sugar coat now.
> 
> I don't accept your new version of what you said. I expect that my not buying your new and improved message I may be called bitter or whatever.
> 
> It's smoke and mirrors and when called on it, the ball is placed in the other court. It's interesting how mean and callous remarks in the hands of someone who easily backtracks so obviously manipulates the narrative.


I think this is pretty over the top, SC.


----------



## soulpotato

Suspecting2014 said:


> I understand that everybody face hard situation through life, sometimes feel in a dead end, sad, alone, etc. I just need to find out what makes a person cheat and hurt is/her loved ones. why don't just walk away???


For some (I guess, damaged) people, abandoning or being abandoned is the worst thing they can do to someone. Both my betrayed partner and I were like that. More than anything, leaving or losing the other person was the worst thing. Codependency and abandonment issues on both sides, I guess? We were both trying to survive and failing. I just didn't have the tools to deal with the issues and neither did she. But I know what happened wasn't what I wanted.


----------



## Served Cold

jld said:


> No one has to take anyone back. But if you want to, I think you may have more luck if you are taking back a wife. And I would only recommend it if she comes crawling and begging and completely humble. My opinion.


This is an example of over the top. It's obvious that the intent was a passive aggressive intent to beat down on a betrayed spouse. 

I'm not shocked that her response was calling my civilized response to the backtracking as over the top.

text book blame shifting...


----------



## jld

SC, you are making me laugh now. You are seeing things that are not even there.


----------



## Mr Blunt

*In sticking with the intent of this thread Regret has opened up part of her life that covers her as a WS*. She has linked us her three part series of “My Story of Destruction”
I said in an earlier post that Regret is a strong woman and the three part series reveals that she most certainly is. She is honest and lays her thoughts out very well.

I have read some of Regrets posts in the past but did not have nearly the information that I got when I read her three part series. I think that Regret’s posts are very valuable and bring to light some information that maybe of help to some.


I am going to summarize and make some comments of what I think I understand about Regret’s posts and ask Regret if I got any of it right.


Summary and comments:


Build up to betrayal
Regret is a strong and competent woman that allowed her ego, resentments, Independence, lack of courage to face her marriage problems, and denied communication skills to over rule her qualities. She wanted to escape from her resentments and perceived marriage woes.



Affects: 
Because of the build up Regret chose to be selfish and hurt the ones she loved the most and damaged her character. Regrets integrity and courage were shattered.


Betrayal
Instead of using her abilities to work on her perceived marriage woes and her resentments she chose to feed her need for attention and escape. The betrayal led Regret into years of lies and deceptions. The sex was mostly for escape and did not have any deep emotional attachments.


Mr. Bunt’s comments
Resentments, lack of courage, ego, and wanting the easy way out make for a very ripe attitude and desire to lower your integrity and damage yourself and family. I think that in life many people face one or more of these factors that make us ripe to great damage such as betrayal. If I am correct about Regret’s story then I think that we at TAM should remind people often of these factors. In addition, we should encourage those that are going in that direction to have the courage to take on those factors in an early stage. *An ounce of prevention is worth a ton of trying to fix it after being broken.*


What about those that have already committed betrayal?

Again Regret has a lot of very good information for actions that can begin the recovery.

Complete openness with face book, email, tests, etc

Absolutely no contact with the other WS.

No more lies and deception only total truth

Expose to all BSs

DO NOT blame the BS

CONSTANTLY communicate and reassure

The WS to admit that the betrayal was solely the choice of the WS

The WS should not expect to get 100% trust from the BS in 1 year or 10 years or maybe never.


*I am sure there are more but the above is a good start. Regret is very fortunate in that she has Dig who immediately decided that he was going to face the pains and start the road to recovery*. In addition, Dig did some things that Regret could not or would not do; Dig stopped the betrayal from continuing and informed the OMs wife. Regret has chosen to use her strength and competency to recover from this tragedy. Because of what I have read about Regret and Dig I think that they will continue to recover past the years that they have already made gains in.

I realize that Regret and Dig’s situation differ from others but I think that Regret’s contributions on this thread are very valuable and perhaps will encourage other WS to join in on this thread. Since this thread is asking for a safe environment for the WS, all WSs should ignore or not read the posts that do not make this thread safe. I am not saying that blunt confrontation and pointing out the WSs selfish crap is not useful in some cases it is just that Rookie wants this thread to be a special thread to draw in lurking WSs. There is plenty of threads that you can point out their selfish crap and you can even start one your self. *This is kind of a unique thread and if successful may draw in lurking WSs that can be helped by TAM*


*Does anyone else see any factors in Regret's story or other stories that would help or inform?*


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> A poster to this thread has sent me a private e-mail that convinced me that I really owe Healer an apology. We have been talking past each other for some time now.
> 
> Let me reproduce the original exchange:
> 
> Originally Posted by Healer
> 
> 
> The "you" here was not me, but someone else. I then commented:
> 
> Originally Posted by Sidney2718
> 
> 
> The problem lies in the bolded part. What I meant was that divorce affecting children all by itself was not reality. I wanted to include children growing up in a home where the parents do not love each other.
> 
> The connection was clear to me, but not clear to others. I did not mean that it is not reality that children are affected by their parents divorce and since I never in fact said exactly that, I could not understand where the comments were coming from.
> 
> So I do owe Healer an apology and I hereby offer it to him.


Well I appreciate that - no personal apology necessary, and thanks for clearing that up. In that context, I agree with you! I personally don't believe staying in an awful marriage "for the kids" is healthy for anyone.


----------



## Served Cold

jld said:


> SC, you are making me laugh now. You are seeing things that are not even there.



enjoy your laughter..it's text book laughter.


----------



## russell28

Hope1964 said:


> Technically it should be "I think" and not 'I feel'.
> 
> Or you could say that YOUR cheating lying POS ww did whatever, and not that ALL ww's do it.


I think *ALL *people that cheat(ed) lie(d) to themselves and to others. I think *ALL *people that cheat, don't want to get caught. I think *ALL *people that cheat, when discovered, will try to shift blame.


----------



## Thundarr

Mr Blunt said:


> *
> Does anyone else see any factors in Regret's story or other stories that would help or inform?*


Mr Blunt, I don't trigger and apparently you don't either. But I'd recommend anyone who reads those threads needs to remember that they are two years old when reading them if their plight is recent.

As I stated earlier, I like success stories. Hopefully Regret and Dig will be a healed couple one day with no regrets.


----------



## Served Cold

jld said:


> SC, you are making me laugh now. You are seeing things that are not even there.[/QUOTE
> 
> I'm not surprised you're laughing. It's text book.
> 
> Thank you for inadvertently show casing mind games.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

walkingdead said:


> He didnt take that person away for 8yrs. He destroyed her. She is dead and long GONE. There is no going back after this. Will NEVER be the person I should have been allowed to be. Simply never.
> 
> And you are correct. It is worse than the original din. But it is a true consequence. Ripples... Ripples... Ripples. Who knows how different my children might have been with their first, sane and sound mom... Nurturing, loving and playful. I tried to fake it. Still do, but I know it will never be as it should have been. Consequences. Unbelievable consequences.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





> My apologies for getting off topic. But felt incredibly freeing to articulate the death of my former self.


I don't know if others asked you, but you really should start your own thread. You need to process this, and the TAM community is the fire that your new phoenix can rise from!

Many people here can give you advise from their own experience. You need it.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> 
> Does anyone else see any factors in Regret's story or other stories that would help or inform?
> 
> *By Thundarr*
> Mr Blunt, I don't trigger and apparently you don't either. But I'd recommend anyone who reads those threads needs to remember that they are two years old when reading them if their plight is recent.
> 
> As I stated earlier, I like success stories. Hopefully Regret and Dig will be a healed couple one day with no regrets.




I really do not know a lot about Regret and Dig's current R. I just assumed that they were doing fine but maybe I am wrong.

However, I think that Regret's three part series is very informative.


----------



## NextTimeAround

jld said:


> SC, you are making me laugh now. You are seeing things that are not even there.



What is SC seeing that's not there?


----------



## Healer

vellocet said:


> I'm at perfect peace. One need not have turmoil to despise the despicable.
> 
> And in case your wondering, yes, I'm picking up on the sarcasm.


Well put - there's a misconception on this board that BS who "despise the despicable" are raging, unbalanced shadows of their former selves who are miserable and just full of hate and still stuck on their former WS. Not necessarily so.

You can be healed and balanced and happy and still despise the despicable.

And yeah, I got that disgusting sarcasm too. Nice.


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> You must be so hurt inside, vell. You always seem so angry.
> 
> I am sorry your wife hurt you so much. She must have had a deep flaw to cheat with three different men.
> 
> I think you did the right thing to divorce her. I hope someday you can feel peace.


Awwww.


----------



## Healer

staystrong said:


> I think she's being sincere. And yes Vell does seem bitter.


Because he doesn't sugar coat things, calls them like he sees them and is disgusted by and won't tolerate cheating? Yeah, OK then. Just because one doesn't tell a cheater what they want to hear doesn't make them "bitter". It makes them honest and a realist.


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> And again, I am sorry that your wife cheated so many times. And I understand if all women just seem untrustworthy to you.


You start off OK then type things like this. A jab followed by another jab. Give it a rest.


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> Well, Wolf, I think your examples are a good illustration of what I've read. Men cheat for sex and women cheat for attention.


You are very, very naive if you don't think women cheat for sex as well.


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> You don't want to be judged against the idea that if a wife cheats, it is because she lacked attention from her husband.


AKA: the husband brought the cheating on himself because he wasn't doing his job. 

And men cheat because they're horny for some strange. We get it.


----------



## Zanne

Mr Blunt said:


> I really do not know a lot about Regret and Dig's current R. I just assumed that they were doing fine but maybe I am wrong.
> 
> *However, I think that Regret's three part series is very informative.*


I have never read Regret's story before. I found TAM four months after she posted it. But I do remember Dig. Regret, it was a very fascinating personal account, albeit painful to read. I think it's an important contribution to this board.

I just hope "lurking waywards" will be able to find it.....buried on page 58 of this thread.....in between the bickering.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> BY Zanne
> I just hope "lurking waywards" will be able to find it.....buried on page 58 of this thread.....in between the bickering


.



This thread gets over 200 posts per day and about 90% of the posts have nothing to do with Rookie’s original post.

Sorry Rookie, you had a good idea but most of the TAM posters are not ready to follow your idea; they seem more interested in bickering and other hijacking topics not related to your thread.


----------



## Regret214

Mr Blunt said:


> I really do not know a lot about Regret and Dig's current R. I just assumed that they were doing fine but maybe I am wrong.
> 
> However, I think that Regret's three part series is very informative.


Our reconciliation is going very well. Last night we had date night to celebrate our 14th anniversary. We had a great time.

To those who constantly talk about financials getting in the way of divorce or reconciliation (yes, it can actually cost money) let me offer some of what we did.

We moved almost 1300 miles away from our small town in Upstate NY to central Florida. I left a 16 year career teaching job making $65k. We couldn't short sell our home as we were a bit behind on our mortgage. So, we stopped paying it and began to save our money for the move. We saved up quite a bit in six months too. Then, we left the house that triggered Dig so badly all day every day and we left the triggers he had from driving past hotels just to get out of town. We left the area where the "gang" lives and any chance of Dig seeing the xOM. We left that area at a humongous financial loss.

And we're better for it.

Dig is so much more relaxed now. He's managed to maintain most of the Dday weight loss and is in great physical shape for a 46 year old. He works in a bad neighborhood as armed private security. He's proud to say he walks his patrol and doesn't want a car or golf cart. He's planned on attending police academy to further engage into a law enforcement career. He is happy.

I start my second year of teaching here this week. I was awarded a class room since I was a "new" teacher in the district last year and I didn't have a dedicated classroom. I pushed my room cart all over campus. It was pretty rough. I still make about $25k less than I did in NY.

So, we left everything we knew. We packed our kids, house and cats. We lost over $250k for it.

And you know what? We're happier now. As Dig often said when people asked how he could walk away from such a high paying flying career, he said this: "Put that million dollars I made in a pile right here in front of me and I'll never be able to buy back not one second of the time I missed with my family"

Stop the money blame. Do what you have to, whatever that is, for yourself and your family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Regret214 said:


> Our reconciliation is going very well. Last night we had date night to celebrate our 14th anniversary. We had a great time.
> 
> To those who constantly talk about financials getting in the way of divorce or reconciliation (yes, it can actually cost money) let me offer some of what we did.
> 
> We moved almost 1300 miles away from our small town in Upstate NY to central Florida. I left a 16 year career teaching job making $65k. We couldn't short sell our home as we were a bit behind on our mortgage. So, we stopped paying it and began to save our money for the move. We saved up quite a bit in six months too. Then, we left the house that triggered Dig so badly all day every day and we left the triggers he had from driving past hotels just to get out of town. We left the area where the "gang" lives and any chance of Dig seeing the xOM. We left that area at a humongous financial loss.
> 
> And we're better for it.
> 
> Dig is so much more relaxed now. He's managed to maintain most of the Dday weight loss and is in great physical shape for a 46 year old. He works in a bad neighborhood as armed private security. He's proud to say he walks his patrol and doesn't want a car or golf cart. He's planned on attending police academy to further engage into a law enforcement career. He is happy.
> 
> I start my second year of teaching here this week. I was awarded a class room since I was a "new" teacher in the district last year and I didn't have a dedicated classroom. I pushed my room cart all over campus. It was pretty rough. I still make about $25k less than I did in NY.
> 
> So, we left everything we knew. We packed our kids, house and cats. We lost over $250k for it.
> 
> And you know what? We're happier now. As Dig often said when people asked how he could walk away from such a high paying flying career, he said this: *"Put that million dollars I made in a pile right here in front of me and I'll never be able to buy back not one second of the time I missed with my family"*
> 
> Stop the money blame. Do what you have to, whatever that is, for yourself and your family.


Wise words. And remember, folks...

You can't take it w/ you when you're lowered into the ground, and all that will remain of any of us is what we leave behind; _be sure to leave behind something that matters._


----------



## MattMatt

So glad you and your family and your purry people got through this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

Mr Blunt said:


> *In sticking with the intent of this thread Regret has opened up part of her life that covers her as a WS*. She has linked us her three part series of “My Story of Destruction”
> I said in an earlier post that Regret is a strong woman and the three part series reveals that she most certainly is. She is honest and lays her thoughts out very well.
> 
> I have read some of Regrets posts in the past but did not have nearly the information that I got when I read her three part series. I think that Regret’s posts are very valuable and bring to light some information that maybe of help to some.
> 
> 
> I am going to summarize and make some comments of what I think I understand about Regret’s posts and ask Regret if I got any of it right.
> 
> 
> Summary and comments:
> 
> 
> Build up to betrayal
> Regret is a strong and competent woman that allowed her ego, resentments, Independence, lack of courage to face her marriage problems, and denied communication skills to over rule her qualities. She wanted to escape from her resentments and perceived marriage woes.
> 
> 
> 
> Affects:
> Because of the build up Regret chose to be selfish and hurt the ones she loved the most and damaged her character. Regrets integrity and courage were shattered.
> 
> 
> Betrayal
> Instead of using her abilities to work on her perceived marriage woes and her resentments she chose to feed her need for attention and escape. The betrayal led Regret into years of lies and deceptions. The sex was mostly for escape and did not have any deep emotional attachments.
> 
> 
> Mr. Bunt’s comments
> Resentments, lack of courage, ego, and wanting the easy way out make for a very ripe attitude and desire to lower your integrity and damage yourself and family. I think that in life many people face one or more of these factors that make us ripe to great damage such as betrayal. If I am correct about Regret’s story then I think that we at TAM should remind people often of these factors. In addition, we should encourage those that are going in that direction to have the courage to take on those factors in an early stage. *An ounce of prevention is worth a ton of trying to fix it after being broken.*
> 
> 
> What about those that have already committed betrayal?
> 
> Again Regret has a lot of very good information for actions that can begin the recovery.
> 
> Complete openness with face book, email, tests, etc
> 
> Absolutely no contact with the other WS.
> 
> No more lies and deception only total truth
> 
> Expose to all BSs
> 
> DO NOT blame the BS
> 
> CONSTANTLY communicate and reassure
> 
> The WS to admit that the betrayal was solely the choice of the WS
> 
> The WS should not expect to get 100% trust from the BS in 1 year or 10 years or maybe never.
> 
> 
> *I am sure there are more but the above is a good start. Regret is very fortunate in that she has Dig who immediately decided that he was going to face the pains and start the road to recovery*. In addition, Dig did some things that Regret could not or would not do; Dig stopped the betrayal from continuing and informed the OMs wife. Regret has chosen to use her strength and competency to recover from this tragedy. Because of what I have read about Regret and Dig I think that they will continue to recover past the years that they have already made gains in.
> 
> I realize that Regret and Dig’s situation differ from others but I think that Regret’s contributions on this thread are very valuable and perhaps will encourage other WS to join in on this thread. Since this thread is asking for a safe environment for the WS, all WSs should ignore or not read the posts that do not make this thread safe. I am not saying that blunt confrontation and pointing out the WSs selfish crap is not useful in some cases it is just that Rookie wants this thread to be a special thread to draw in lurking WSs. There is plenty of threads that you can point out their selfish crap and you can even start one your self. *This is kind of a unique thread and if successful may draw in lurking WSs that can be helped by TAM*
> 
> 
> *Does anyone else see any factors in Regret's story or other stories that would help or inform?*


Bravo!

I hope that the sysadmins at TAM can find a way to let WS's post without being beaten on by others.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Faeleaf said:


> Human beings are wired to agree with our friends, and disagree with our enemies. It's biology.
> 
> When we are harsh, sarcastic, angry etc, we are pre-disposing the hearer to reject our message. It becomes nearly impossible for them to accept what we have to say, regardless of how cleverly worded or solid our arguments are. The protective wall goes up automatically, shielding the recipient from a message that might otherwise penetrate them and make a difference.
> 
> The reverse is also true. When you build someone up, convince them you are their friend, show respect and encourage, it becomes nearly impossible for the hearer to NOT agree with what you say. You have pre-disposed them to be receptive to your words, and there is no protective shield in sight. It takes work to get to that place, but it's frequently very productive. This is when they are susceptible to statements such as, "You want to do the right thing, even though it's difficult," or "I believe my trust in you isn't unfounded, and you are going to make amends."
> 
> Of course all the encouragement in the world cannot fix a broken character, and I'm not claiming friendship is a magic wand to wrongdoers. I will say I believe strongly that it gets FAR more results than the hard-line approach of tearing people down.
> 
> I also want to say that I COMPLETELY understand that what I've suggested (the encouraging and supportive approach) is IMPOSSIBLE for some BS's to attempt. Your particular history and experiences make this utterly unpalatable, regardless of how well it works. I get that, and I support you choosing not to.


Human beings are also looking for ways to explain the universe; looking for rational and logical reasons as to why bad things can happen to good people - see the "just word theory" for the above two;

and to let wrong doers get off the hook by finding some benign reason for the evil that they do which explains why so many people are "so sure" that the AP did not know that their adulterous partner was actually married.

I remember a now ex friend feeling sorry for my exH's affair partner citing that she may not have known that he was married. She was not even interested in contemplating whether a coworker (as my exH and she were) should make themselves aware of the marital status of the people that they work with, particularly when they intend to get less professional with one another. 

I have noticed a lot of people insisting that errant parties "must of" _(sic)_ forgotton or were illinformed as a way to mitigate someone's wrongdoing. If there is a 1% chance that that's possible, that's what they go with. I guess many people like to hedge when it's no skin off their back.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Regret*
> Our reconciliation is going very well. Last night we had date night to celebrate our 14th anniversary. We had a great time.
> 
> To those who constantly talk about financials getting in the way of divorce or reconciliation (yes, it can actually cost money) let me offer some of what we did.
> 
> We moved almost 1300 miles away from our small town in Upstate NY to central Florida. I left a 16 year career teaching job making $65k. We couldn't short sell our home as we were a bit behind on our mortgage. So, we stopped paying it and began to save our money for the move. We saved up quite a bit in six months too. Then, we left the house that triggered Dig so badly all day every day and we left the triggers he had from driving past hotels just to get out of town. We left the area where the "gang" lives and any chance of Dig seeing the xOM. We left that area at a humongous financial loss.
> 
> And we're better for it.
> 
> Dig is so much more relaxed now. He's managed to maintain most of the Dday weight loss and is in great physical shape for a 46 year old. He works in a bad neighborhood as armed private security. He's proud to say he walks his patrol and doesn't want a car or golf cart. He's planned on attending police academy to further engage into a law enforcement career. He is happy.
> 
> I start my second year of teaching here this week. I was awarded a class room since I was a "new" teacher in the district last year and I didn't have a dedicated classroom. I pushed my room cart all over campus. It was pretty rough. I still make about $25k less than I did in NY.
> 
> So, we left everything we knew. We packed our kids, house and cats. We lost over $250k for it.
> 
> And you know what? We're happier now. As Dig often said when people asked how he could walk away from such a high paying flying career, he said this: "*Put that million dollars I made in a pile right here in front of me and I'll never be able to buy back not one second of the time I missed with my family"*
> 
> Stop the money blame. Do what you have to, whatever that is, for yourself and your family.



It is outstanding that Regret and Dig are doing well in their R and still going after 2 years


It is even more impressive that R&D gave up LOTS of money so they could keep kicking Mr. Infidelity in the AZZ! *I love people that put their money where there mouth is then spit out the money to prove that they are the real deal!*


I do not tthink that I have heard a statement on TAM made that proves a man’s character as the one below by Dig
*



"Put that million dollars I made in a pile right here in front of me and I'll never be able to buy back not one second of the time I missed with my family"

Click to expand...

*
What makes that statement so powerful is that Dig did give up that million dollars. Take the $250 thousnd and the loss of income from employment from both Dig and Regert and in a few years the loss is one million!

I did not get to know Dig very much back in 2012 ansd 2013 but I feel that his loss here at TAM is HUGE! I do not know all what he did to get banned but his living example of how a strong man takes actions in the case of infidelity makes him a hero here at TAM. IMO


Regret is one very fortunate woman! This thread is about WSs and Regret is a wayward spouse that could start her owm AA club. No not Alcholics Annomous but ACTIONS and ATTITUDES. All you lurking WSs would do yourself a big favor by studing Regret’s ACTIONS and ATTITUDE. *After all, those two AAs are the majprity of what a WS can do to help their BS and themselves.*

*In addition, you WSs should read everything that Regret, CST, EI, and Mrs John Adams posts on this TAM forum.* I know there is more but those are the ones that I can think of right m now. Rather than waddle in despair, guilt and self-loathing would’nt it be to everyone's advantage if the WSs followed in the footsteps of those WSs that have years of gaining in R? I have to point out that Mrs John Adams has over THIRTY YEARS of gaining in R. 


MR. John Adams deserves to be crowned KING of the men’s strong betrayed spouses’ club which has several members such as B1, Calvin, Dig, Bfree, Philat, and WAZZA to name just a few. I know I missed a bunch so you all can fill in their manes if you want.


----------



## Regret214

Thank you so very much for such a wonderful comment and compliment Mr. Blunt. I'll even let you in on a little inside secret of Dig's and mine: We were married on 8/12/2000. Often when the time strikes 8:12, one or both of us texts an "I love you".

On the east coast, your comment was posted at 8:12pm. I think that's just one of those neat things the universe does to add an exclamation point to life sometimes.

Dig also says thank you, but wants me to remind everyone that he continues to see himself as a simple man put in an extraordinary circumstance and simply refused to give up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Think it's cool that he was able to forgive you. Can't imagine, or maybe just don't want to, how hard reconciliation must be.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Dig also says thank you, but wants me to remind everyone that he continues to see himself as a simple man put in an extraordinary circumstance and simply refused to give up.


*Now that makes Dig an even more of a hero because he is not only strong but HUMBLE. A rare combination that makes for a real good man!*


----------



## Regret214

Wolf1974 said:


> Think it's cool that he was able to forgive you. Can't imagine, or maybe just don't want to, how hard reconciliation must be.


It literally took him one year before he was able to say those words. Yes, reconciliation is extremely difficult. Not for the faint at heart one bit. However, if BOTH spouses work at it, it can be done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

Mr Blunt said:


> *Now that makes Dig an even more of a hero because he is not only strong but HUMBLE. A rare combination that makes for a real good man!*


I thank him every day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Philat

Regret214 said:


> Our reconciliation is going very well. Last night we had date night to celebrate our 14th anniversary. We had a great time.
> 
> To those who constantly talk about financials getting in the way of divorce or reconciliation (yes, it can actually cost money) let me offer some of what we did.
> 
> We moved almost 1300 miles away from our small town in Upstate NY to central Florida. I left a 16 year career teaching job making $65k. We couldn't short sell our home as we were a bit behind on our mortgage. So, we stopped paying it and began to save our money for the move. We saved up quite a bit in six months too. Then, we left the house that triggered Dig so badly all day every day and we left the triggers he had from driving past hotels just to get out of town. We left the area where the "gang" lives and any chance of Dig seeing the xOM. We left that area at a humongous financial loss.
> 
> And we're better for it.
> 
> Dig is so much more relaxed now. He's managed to maintain most of the Dday weight loss and is in great physical shape for a 46 year old. He works in a bad neighborhood as armed private security. He's proud to say he walks his patrol and doesn't want a car or golf cart. He's planned on attending police academy to further engage into a law enforcement career. He is happy.
> 
> I start my second year of teaching here this week. I was awarded a class room since I was a "new" teacher in the district last year and I didn't have a dedicated classroom. I pushed my room cart all over campus. It was pretty rough. I still make about $25k less than I did in NY.
> 
> So, we left everything we knew. We packed our kids, house and cats. We lost over $250k for it.
> 
> And you know what? We're happier now. As Dig often said when people asked how he could walk away from such a high paying flying career, he said this: "Put that million dollars I made in a pile right here in front of me and I'll never be able to buy back not one second of the time I missed with my family"
> 
> Stop the money blame. Do what you have to, whatever that is, for yourself and your family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I share in others' admiration for SomeDayDig. I also respect Regret for putting herself out there and helping Dig shoulder the burden she put on his shoulders.

I also see in this post another example of the high cost (literally) of infidelity.


----------



## Turin74

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*

That post basically made me to post here again. While "something money can not buy" is so overused, this gets as close to it as it realistically possible. With respect of course to those who ended up with real financial hardship. For the rest - this. 



Regret214 said:


> To those who constantly talk about financials getting in the way of divorce or reconciliation (yes, it can actually cost money) let me offer some of what we did.
> 
> ...
> 
> Stop the money blame. Do what you have to, whatever that is, for yourself and your family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Mr Blunt said:


> *Now that makes Dig an even more of a hero because he is not only strong but HUMBLE. A rare combination that makes for a real good man!*


:iagree:


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> It literally took him one year before he was able to say those words. Yes, reconciliation is extremely difficult. Not for the faint at heart one bit. However, if BOTH spouses work at it, it can be done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I imagine it is a crap ton of work. It would never work for me but everyone is different. I'm impressed when anyone can successfully do it


----------



## OhGeesh

Healer said:


> You are very, very naive if you don't think women cheat for sex as well.


I would argue that TAM is naive for thinking women cheat with the same frequency or repetition as men. Which has been portrayed alot lately.


As I've said before I can count the men I know who haven't cheated on 1 hand at work. Either they are making up stories to fit in or there is a ton of infidelity going on. 

This amongst business professional that travel for work often, so maybe that skews the numbers a little. Strip clubs, escorts, are the norm.


----------



## Mr Blunt

Wolf

In betrayal/infidelity reconciliation is not always the best choice. However, it appears that reconciliation is the best for Dig and Regret. Reconciliation is a gift that the BS gives the WS and Regrets knows this and is very grateful to Dig.

Wolf, I do not know a lot about your situation but you do seem to be a level headed man so I assume your position on reconciliation would be best for you.

Lurking WSs need to know that there are at least two positions that the BSs will act upon. Wolf and Dig have shown us those two positions and it would benefit the WSs to understand both so they can have a better chance of recovery.

I try to encourage forgiveness in either R of D because forgiveness gets rid of some the negative emotions and allows for a better chance at rebuilding your life.


----------



## russell28

Mr Blunt said:


> Wolf
> 
> In betrayal/infidelity reconciliation is not always the best choice. However, it appears that reconciliation is the best for Dig and Regret. Reconciliation is a gift that the BS gives the WS and Regrets knows this and is very grateful to Dig.
> 
> Wolf, I do not know a lot about your situation but you do seem to be a level headed man so I assume your position on reconciliation would be best for you.
> 
> Lurking WSs need to know that there are at least two positions that the BSs will act upon. Wolf and Dig have shown us those two positions and it would benefit the WSs to understand both so they can have a better chance of recovery.
> 
> I try to encourage forgiveness in either R of D because forgiveness gets rid of some the negative emotions and allows for a better chance at rebuilding your life.


Lurking WSs, also need to know that any attempts to get approval from the forum, for their 'reasons', will not be taken well.. trickle truth, will also not be supported. 

If a lurking WS were to say something like "I don't want to tell them the whole truth because it will hurt them".

If we say "bull crap you're trying to protect your image, and don't want to show him exactly how deep the betrayal is and how much you were willing to give yourself to that other person".

That's not us being mean, or not being good posters. That's the forum trying to help a WS out of the fog of denial. To show them that unless they do what Regret is doing, any attempt at R is doomed. (assuming they are here to get help with advice on R with the BS) There isn't always a nice way to say some things. Truth has to be harsh sometimes, I know from experience. 

If a WS comes here and says they cheated because the BS wasn't perfect, they will get called out. Mention you were a good parent while you were cheating, and you will get called out on it. Many here don't think good parenting includes telling lies and sneaking around and risking STDs, stealing the kids college funds etc.. We would point out that just like a drinker isn't being a good parent while they are drunk, a cheater isn't a good parent while they are sneaking and telling lies. Why gloss over it to help them feel better about it. Is that what we really want here, to make cheaters feel good about choices to cheat and be comfortable with who they were/are while cheating, or show them the other side of the coin? The damage they are doing, and have done, so we can help the BS and WS heal, and not help them lie to themselves about the why's and how's.

So to any lurking WS that considers posting here. Don't expect support for gas lighting, trickle truthing or blame shifting. We aren't here to help you justify your choice to cheat. We aren't here to support you in abusing your spouse. We don't want to help you lie to yourself. We will not say you are justified, you made the right choice to cheat.


----------



## Philat

russell28 said:


> So to any lurking WS that considers posting here. Don't expect support for gas lighting, trickle truthing or blame shifting. We aren't here to help you justify your choice to cheat. We aren't here to support you in abusing your spouse. We don't want to help you lie to yourself. We will not say you are justified, you made the right choice to cheat.


Agreed. But we will (or should) help you "see the light" (i.e., the cold naked truth) and tell you what you have to do to repair the damage you have done, if it is repairable, without making it seem like you have been handed over to the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria to be publicly stoned to death. That's what Rookie intended here.


----------



## xakulax

russell28 said:


> Lurking WSs, also need to know that any attempts to get approval from the forum, for their 'reasons', will not be taken well.. trickle truth, will also not be supported.
> 
> If a lurking WS were to say something like "I don't want to tell them the whole truth because it will hurt them".
> 
> If we say "bull crap you're trying to protect your image, and don't want to show him exactly how deep the betrayal is and how much you were willing to give yourself to that other person".
> 
> That's not us being mean, or not being good posters. That's the forum trying to help a WS out of the fog of denial. To show them that unless they do what Regret is doing, any attempt at R is doomed. (assuming they are here to get help with advice on R with the BS) There isn't always a nice way to say some things. Truth has to be harsh sometimes, I know from experience.
> 
> If a WS comes here and says they cheated because the BS wasn't perfect, they will get called out. Mention you were a good parent while you were cheating, and you will get called out on it. Many here don't think good parenting includes telling lies and sneaking around and risking STDs, stealing the kids college funds etc.. We would point out that just like a drinker isn't being a good parent while they are drunk, a cheater isn't a good parent while they are sneaking and telling lies. Why gloss over it to help them feel better about it. Is that what we really want here, to make cheaters feel good about choices to cheat and be comfortable with who they were/are while cheating, or show them the other side of the coin? The damage they are doing, and have done, so we can help the BS and WS heal, and not help them lie to themselves about the why's and how's.
> 
> So to any lurking WS that considers posting here. Don't expect support for gas lighting, trickle truthing or blame shifting. We aren't here to help you justify your choice to cheat. We aren't here to support you in abusing your spouse. We don't want to help you lie to yourself. We will not say you are justified, you made the right choice to cheat.





:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## staystrong

The triggers are an interesting thing and I wonder how they play out at the beginning of an R where the WS has still not really grasped the brain damage they've caused. 

I imagine they want to help, but at the same time the BS saying that he/she can't stop thinking about the WS with AP must be difficult for the WS too. 

Any WS's who can comment on that?


----------



## Healer

OhGeesh said:


> I would argue that TAM is naive for thinking women cheat with the same frequency or repetition as men. Which has been portrayed alot lately.
> 
> 
> As I've said before I can count the men I know who haven't cheated on 1 hand at work. Either they are making up stories to fit in or there is a ton of infidelity going on.
> 
> This amongst business professional that travel for work often, so maybe that skews the numbers a little. Strip clubs, escorts, are the norm.


And I know more men who've been cheated on than women. 

Not sure what your response to my post has to do with the actual content of my post, though.


----------



## MikeBrant

Is there room for burnt lurking OM on this thread?
Right before guilt and shame consume me to death.


----------



## doubletrouble

Come on in, MikeBrant.


----------



## doubletrouble

russell28 said:


> If a lurking WS were to say something like "I don't want to tell them the whole truth because it will hurt them".
> 
> If we say "bull crap you're trying to protect your image, and don't want to show him exactly how deep the betrayal is and how much you were willing to give yourself to that other person".


When my fWW said that, I told her she was also trying to protect OM.


----------



## staystrong

MikeBrant said:


> Is there room for burnt lurking OM on this thread?
> Right before guilt and shame consume me to death.


Hi Mike, what would you like to get off your chest?

Be prepared for many different responses, but people do want to help you do the right thing.


----------



## vellocet

MikeBrant said:


> Is there room for burnt lurking OM on this thread?
> Right before guilt and shame consume me to death.


Sure, there is always room. But what people won't put up with is an OM/OW feeling they owe nothing, even common decency, to the BS when engaging in an affair with their spouse.

But if you feel guilt and shame, then you at least feel bad I am assuming on what you helped a WW do to her husband? If that is the case, then my 2nd sentence doesn't apply to you.


----------



## russell28

doubletrouble said:


> When my fWW said that, I told her she was also trying to protect OM.


That too.. my wife told me she thought I might hurt him if I ever caught them. I told her thanks for also making me a potential prisoner for having killed or hurt someone, that he must've been pretty spectacular for her to not only risk her safety, but mine and his too. Probably amps up the excitement a few notches..


----------



## russell28

MikeBrant said:


> Is there room for burnt lurking OM on this thread?
> Right before guilt and shame consume me to death.


Sure, I can help. Here's what you need to do. Stop being an OM. You obviously know you're doing something you shouldn't be doing. You know wrong from right. Instead of doing the wrong thing, and making up excuses for why it's okay. Do the right thing.

I don't have to tell you what that is, you already know.


----------



## staystrong

russell28 said:


> Sure, I can help. Here's what you need to do. Stop being an OM. You obviously know you're doing something you shouldn't be doing. You know wrong from right. Instead of doing the wrong thing, and making up excuses for why it's okay. Do the right thing.
> 
> I don't have to tell you what that is, you already know.


Let's let the man speak. 

He may have certain assumptions about WW and BH based on false assertions by her, and he's using that to justify what he does. 

Mike?


----------



## vellocet

I agree, lets hear him out. But one thing to point out, that post is the first and only post after signing up for an account.

Why this thread? :scratchhead:


----------



## MikeBrant

Please bear with me as English is not my language. 

Believe me I am not a troll, and there is not anything you may call me that I haven't called myself. 

Last year I met a woman through a social gathering. We began to talk more casually from January, of course from the start something was really offish about her. Like the fact that we became very close within one month of contact. 

She told me she was going through a divorce, and that her husband who had already began to date has told her to find a boyfriend herself . keep in mind they still lived together and could not file. I understood that it was due to financial reasons.

Sometimes around April, we began to get intimate, and were spending more time together. At one point I told her we should consider reverting to being just friend, so each of us can move on to a conventional relationship. She began to say that I was kicking her to the curb, that I might have found somebody younger. 

after two week of little contact with distancing herself from me she contact and want to get together for dinner. Only to announce me that she is in contact with one of her former lovers and that they were dating again. But if I want she date the two of us simultaneously.


----------



## russell28

MikeBrant said:


> Please bear with me as English is not my language.
> 
> Believe me I am not a troll, and there is not anything you may call me that I haven't called myself.
> 
> Last year I met a woman through a social gathering. We began to talk more casually from January, of course from the start something was really offish about her. Like the fact that we became very close within one month of contact.
> 
> She told me she was going through a divorce, and that her husband who had already began to date has told her to find a boyfriend herself . keep in mind they still lived together and could not file. I understood that it was due to financial reasons.
> 
> Sometimes around April, we began to get intimate, and were spending more time together. At one point I told her we should consider reverting to being just friend, so each of us can move on to a conventional relationship. She began to say that I was kicking her to the curb, that I might have found somebody younger.
> 
> after two week of little contact with distancing herself from me she contact and want to get together for dinner. Only to announce me that she is in contact with one of her former lovers and that they were dating again. But if I want she date the two of us simultaneously.



What do you think you should do?


----------



## staystrong

MikeBrant said:


> Please bear with me as English is not my language.
> 
> Believe me I am not a troll, and there is not anything you may call me that I haven't called myself.
> 
> Last year I met a woman through a social gathering. We began to talk more casually from January, of course from the start something was really offish about her. Like the fact that we became very close within one month of contact.
> 
> She told me she was going through a divorce, and that her husband who had already began to date has told her to find a boyfriend herself . keep in mind they still lived together and could not file. I understood that it was due to financial reasons.
> 
> Sometimes around April, we began to get intimate, and were spending more time together. At one point I told her we should consider reverting to being just friend, so each of us can move on to a conventional relationship. She began to say that I was kicking her to the curb, that I might have found somebody younger.
> 
> after two week of little contact with distancing herself from me she contact and want to get together for dinner. Only to announce me that she is in contact with one of her former lovers and that they were dating again. But if I want she date the two of us simultaneously.


I was expecting something far worse.

Mike, 

Everyone here will tell you that you can't believe a word she says. The guy could be at home thinking he's happily married and waiting for his wife to come home.

She sounds a bit wacko, honestly. 

What advice are you looking for here, specifically? Do you want to know if she's really divorcing or not?


----------



## russell28

_"Only to announce me that she is in contact with one of her former lovers and that they were dating again. But if I want she date the two of us simultaneously."_

I'll give him a hint by translating this line.

RUN!!!! RUN like HELL!!!!


----------



## vellocet

MikeBrant said:


> Please bear with me as English is not my language.
> 
> Believe me I am not a troll, and there is not anything you may call me that I haven't called myself.
> 
> Last year I met a woman through a social gathering. We began to talk more casually from January, of course from the start something was really offish about her. Like the fact that we became very close within one month of contact.
> 
> She told me she was going through a divorce, and that her husband who had already began to date has told her to find a boyfriend herself . keep in mind they still lived together and could not file. I understood that it was due to financial reasons.
> 
> Sometimes around April, we began to get intimate, and were spending more time together. At one point I told her we should consider reverting to being just friend, so each of us can move on to a conventional relationship. She began to say that I was kicking her to the curb, that I might have found somebody younger.
> 
> after two week of little contact with distancing herself from me she contact and want to get together for dinner. Only to announce me that she is in contact with one of her former lovers and that they were dating again. But if I want she date the two of us simultaneously.


So where does the "OM" part come into play? Granted, you should have waited for a divorce, but she told you she was getting a divorce. Is that not happening? Did she lie?

Question is, would you have bed her down if she was NOT getting a divorce?


----------



## russell28

vellocet said:


> So where does the "OM" part come into play? Granted, you should have waited for a divorce, but she told you she was getting a divorce. Is that not happening? Did she lie?
> 
> Question is, would you have bed her down if she was NOT getting a divorce?


She's getting a 'divorce', aka cheating on her husband until he finds out and divorces her.


----------



## MikeBrant

she says she wants to be poly amorous. she had told me that she has been seeing her lover on and off for more than 10 years. To the question, ''who was the last man you were with right before me'', 
she tells me that it was neither her husband nor her lover but rather a ''a very good friend of hers''. 

Now here I am a shell of my former self, unable to sleep, unable to function. 

A month ago I had an emotional breakdown, for two weeks I wasn't able to sleep and to eat at all.

I wonder why I am in so much pain since we are not together anymore.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> If a lurking WS were to say something like "I don't want to tell them the whole truth because it will hurt them".


A related excuse to the above is:

"Honey, I didn't tell you because I knew you would get angry."


----------



## vellocet

But where does the "guilt and shame", of which you spoke, of being an OM come into play?


----------



## NextTimeAround

> after two week of little contact with distancing herself from me she contact and want to get together for dinner. *Only to announce me that she is in contact with one of her former lovers and that they were dating again.* But if I want she date the two of us simultaneously.


As a woman, I would like to know, does such information about a woman turn you on? Does this make you want to pursue her even more? IF so, why?


----------



## russell28

MikeBrant said:


> she says she wants to be poly amorous. she had told me that she has been seeing her lover on and off for more than 10 years. To the question, ''who was the last man you were with right before me'',
> she tells me that it was neither her husband nor her lover but rather a ''a very good friend of hers''.
> 
> Now here I am a shell of my former self, unable to sleep, unable to function.
> 
> A month ago I had an emotional breakdown, for two weeks I wasn't able to sleep and to eat at all.
> 
> I wonder why I am in so much pain since we are not together anymore.



Be glad you are free from her. Find someone else, that's not polyethylene or whatever she is.. get someone real, and not plastic. Lift weights, eat right, buy new clothes.. spend time on yourself. You don't need the drama of a polygamous drama queen that's telling lies about divorcing so she can sleep around on her husband or whatever she's up to. Unless you're cool with that, and it doesn't sound like you're into STDs and being played. Good luck.


----------



## russell28

Can we get back on topic now that we cured that (not a troll) guy?


----------



## MikeBrant

So where does the "OM" part come into play? Granted, you should have waited for a divorce, but she told you she was getting a divorce. Is that not happening? Did she lie?

Question is, would you have bed her down if she was NOT getting a divorce?

the answer is plain NO. I would never date a woman who is in a relationship. 

I don't think the divorce is happening anytime soon.


----------



## russell28

MikeBrant said:


> So where does the "OM" part come into play? Granted, you should have waited for a divorce, but she told you she was getting a divorce. Is that not happening? Did she lie?
> 
> Question is, would you have bed her down if she was NOT getting a divorce?
> 
> the answer is plain NO. I would never date a woman who is in a relationship.
> 
> I don't think the divorce is happening anytime soon.


How about dating a woman that's in three relationships? Four? What is your number?


----------



## MikeBrant

Can we get back on topic now that we cured that (not a troll) guy? 

Thats the exact reason I am looking for help. The very story that sounds like a troll to you has happened to me.


----------



## MikeBrant

Vellocet, I have been lurking on TAM athough I didnt have an account. 

And how can I open a thread on a "coping with infidelity forum " if I am not married


----------



## staystrong

Mike,

It sounds like you are hurting because you discovered that she was a fraud of sorts. Is that the case? Do you feel betrayed?

That's completely understandable. 

I would say you are more of a benign OM. You were roped into believing something about the marriage which was not true.

It sounds like you should just cut her out of your life and find someone who is not attached in any way.

You will grieve her (the illusion of her) and you will be angry about the deception. 

What do you think?


----------



## MikeBrant

to NextTimeAround: no it doesn't turn me on at all. 

Its only that the fact that I might have taken part in the Demise of a marriage is killing me.


----------



## Healer

russell28 said:


> Be glad you are free from her. Find someone else, that's not polyethylene or whatever she is..


Lol.


----------



## staystrong

MikeBrant said:


> to NextTimeAround: no it doesn't turn me on at all.
> 
> Its only that the fact that I might have taken part in the Demise of a marriage is killing me.


Let it go. 

You weren't the cause of anything. 

She's already revealed she had other lovers on the side, and she wants to be polyamorous. 

Does that sound like a faithful wife to you?

Your dilemma now is whether you think you are bound to tell the husband or not. He may not know and he would probably be better off without this person in his life. That's your call.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Mike
> Its only that the fact that I might have taken part in the Demise of a marriage is killing me.


*
First off do you know what this woman has told you is true? 
How much is true and how much is bullshyt?*


You had a nervous breakdown because you banged a woman that asked you to bang her? If you believe her story then her husband wanted her to bang someone so that he could do whey he wanted to do.


Assuming that you did take part in the demise of a marriage then that should prompt you to take immediate action to separate yourself completely from the woman and all others associated with that marriage and learn your lesson to be a better man. 


Frankly I am a little suspect as to you having a nervous breakdown just because a woman wanted you to bang her and her husband wanted out of the marriage.
It is normal for a good man to have guilt and be troubled over being part of a marriage breakdown but your situation with this woman is a little bit overboard.


*Are there more reasons why you had a nervous breakdown?*


----------



## doubletrouble

MikeBrant said:


> Its only that the fact that I might have taken part in the Demise of a marriage is killing me.


Did you fall in love with her?


----------



## vellocet

MikeBrant said:


> Vellocet, I have been lurking on TAM athough I didnt have an account.
> 
> And how can I open a thread on a "coping with infidelity forum " if I am not married


You don't need to be married to open a thread in CWI. If you are involved in infidelity, whether the BS, WS, or OM, you are dealing with it.


----------



## staystrong

Mike, it's going to be all right. If it weren't you it would have been someone else. 

Meet her face to face and ask her to call or text her husband in front of you to verify that her having a boyfriend is okay. And watch her reaction.


----------



## vellocet

staystrong said:


> Mike, it's going to be all right. *If it weren't you it would have been someone else.*


While in Mike's situation its a little different, told him she was divorcing, etc, the bolded part is not an argument.

That doesn't make it all right. And if it did, then the OM could go to a husband and say, "I have no responsibility here, if it wasn't me it would be someone else"....see how well that phrase goes over with a BS.


----------



## staystrong

Under normal circumstances, it is not an argument. Agreed.

In his, it really is. This woman was talking about being polyamorous.

If I was married and received a call from a genuinely distraught Mike Bryant apologizing he had slept with my wife and she had told him the stuff she did (and it was lies), I wouldn't be angry at him. I'd be sick to my stomach, not sure I'd want to know details, but then the next thing I'd do is approach my wife.


----------



## MikeBrant

The fact is I did truly value her as a friend and the lunatic in me has hoped we could continue being friends...., or that we could revert to the friendship we have before. 

I was shocked to know that she was sleeping with this other man as well when we were together. 

When I turned down her proposition for membership in her harem of men she cut contact with me. And when she would come back she would act flirty to see if we can have sex again, of course after telling me about her lover. 

I was very shocked by the unceremonious way our friendship ended, I always thought she was better than that. 

The breakdown I had was mainly about the way things ended with us. 

One more thing is I have been Lurking on TAM for a while now, I have seen how sad most of the story of infidelity are, and how many marriage have been rendered nonredeemable by infidelity. But I have never heard of any 10+ years affair. 
I still wonder how I could associate with such a person and remain oblivious to it. Her husband is a very honorable man, middle class citizen. I cant fathom how such a think can happen to him. 

I guess everything she told me was the truth, since most of the "revelations" came after the end of our friendship,why would she have lied still if she didn't care anymore about what I thought of her. 

Right now there is a big cloud of unfairness that plans on my sky, yet I know there is no one to blame but me. 
I wasn't coerced in anything, I was a consenting partaker in that affair.

This whole ordeal shook me to the core, it has raised many existential questions in me.


----------



## vellocet

staystrong said:


> Under normal circumstances, it is not an argument. Agreed.
> 
> In his, it really is. This woman was talking about being polyamorous.



I would say in his situation it is still not an argument. But he, IMO, wasn't the typical OM. She was supposed to be getting a divorce.




> If I was married and received a call from a genuinely distraught Mike Bryant apologizing he had slept with my wife and she had told him the stuff she did (and it was lies), I wouldn't be angry at him.


Neither would I if we were already getting a divorce, or if not getting a divorce she lied to him about her marital status and he didn't know he was an OM.

And even if he did know, but was still feeling bad and apologized and ended it, I'd probably not be mad. Hell, probably even take him out for a drink.

But if he said, "Hey, if it wasn't me it would have been someone else", to me that's saying she was fair game and he has no responsibility to keep his hands off someone elses wife.
That's saying, "hey, might as well have gotten mine since it could have been anyone". Not going to fly with me, and I'd venture to guess the majority of BSs


----------



## staystrong

Mike,

If you respect this man, and she does not..

Maybe he deserves to know the truth?

If they really are divorcing, I'd say don't tell him.
If they are not, you should seriously consider doing it.

You sound like a good man.. don't let this woman's activities mess with your mind. She revealed herself for who and what she is.


----------



## staystrong

vellocet said:


> But if he said, "Hey, if it wasn't me it would have been someone else", to me that's saying she was fair game and he has no responsibility to keep his hands off someone elses wife.
> That's saying, "hey, might as well have gotten mine since it could have been anyone". Not going to fly with me, and I'd venture to guess the majority of BSs


I'm not saying he should use that an excuse. I'm saying he could BE excused for that reason.. perhaps even the BH would provide that same excuse to him.


----------



## Zanne

vellocet said:


> You don't need to be married to open a thread in CWI. *If you are involved in infidelity, whether the BS, WS, or OM, you are dealing with it.*


Ha! *Cough, cough* Not true.

Unless you are a BS or a "remorseful" WS (see the list to know if you fit this description according to TAM and even then you will be doubted), you are attacked.

And then you get transfered to another sub forum.


----------



## vellocet

Zanne said:


> Ha! *Cough, cough* Not true.
> 
> Unless you are a BS or a "remorseful" WS (see the list to know if you fit this description according to TAM and even then you will be doubted), you are attacked.
> 
> And then you get transfered to another sub forum.


Uh *cough cough*, that's not what I said. I said a BS, WS, and OM/OW are dealing with infidelity. 

But while you brought it up, are you really going to sit there and defend the attitudes of the unremorseful, blameshifting, and entitled?

And given your situation of using your H for money, I would think you'd be just a little more humble in your interactions here. And if you aren't, well that says it all doesn't it?


----------



## xakulax

Zanne said:


> Ha! *Cough, cough* Not true.
> 
> Unless you are a BS or a "remorseful" WS (see the list to know if you fit this description according to TAM and even then you will be doubted), you are attacked.
> 
> And then you get transfered to another sub forum.



And yet no one is attacking him zanne i'm sorry but your assertion is off baisd


----------



## vellocet

xakulax said:


> And yet no one is attacking him zanne i'm sorry but your assertion is off baisd


Perhaps she thinks that she can come here, tell a story of abusing her husband, using him for money, financing her little love getaways with the MM should be met with understanding and that nobody should be disgusted.

Of course people are going to be harsh with unremorseful selfish people. Whats to love??


----------



## Zanne

vellocet said:


> Perhaps she thinks that she can come here, tell a story of abusing her husband, using him for money, financing her little love getaways with the MM should be met with understanding and that nobody should be disgusted.
> 
> Of course people are going to be harsh with unremorseful selfish people. Whats to love??


I have never asked for anybody to agree with me. I have never said cheating was okay. I've only ever tried to make sense of the situation myself. It's a confusing time, whether you believe me or not.

If there's something I can speak to, I will - if it seems worth it to me at the time....

In your post to new lurker OM, Mike, you made it seem like anybody is welcome to start a thread in CWI, and I responded the way I did because of my past experience.

Sure, anybody can start a thread. But it may be heavily moderated and then moved and then shut down. Unless! You fall into a certain category, which I mentioned in my first reply to your post.


----------



## vellocet

Zanne said:


> Sure, anybody can start a thread. But it may be heavily moderated and then moved and then shut down. Unless! You fall into a certain category, which I mentioned in my first reply to your post.



Unless you fall into a certain category? Please, just stop.

Despicable is despicable. Selfish is selfish, and unremorseful is unremorseful. Its going to piss people off and for good reason.


----------



## Zanne

vellocet said:


> Unless you fall into a certain category? Please, just stop.
> 
> Despicable is despicable. Selfish is selfish, and unremorseful is unremorseful. Its going to piss people off and for good reason.


Do you know what caught my attention about your post, vellocet? You included WS's.

Because even I agree that THIS forum is for BS's and nobody else. Unless you are a remorseful WS, of course, and then it's best if you are reconciling.

It is the truth and you know it. I don't even have the need for it to change. Just stating the facts, is all.


----------



## Thundarr

Zanne said:


> Do you know what caught my attention about your post, vellocet? You included WS's.
> 
> Because even I agree that THIS forum is for BS's and nobody else. Unless you are a remorseful WS, of course, and then it's best if you are reconciling.


That's no surprise Zanne. A active WS or a WS who doesn't think they did much wrong is not what this forum is built for.

TAM is 'The Marriage Advice and Relationship Help Forums'. It's common knowledge that anyone who is not remorseful about betraying their relationship and spouse goes against the theme.


----------



## Zanne

vellocet said:


> Perhaps she thinks that she can come here, tell a story of abusing her husband, using him for money, financing her little love getaways with the MM should be met with understanding and that nobody should be disgusted.
> 
> Of course people are going to be harsh with unremorseful selfish people. Whats to love??


BTW, I have decided to bring everything into the light in my life and let the chips fall where they may. I encouraged the OM to do the same.

I have lacked the courage for many reasons, but regardless of the outcome, I believe the truth will set me free. (Sorry, I know that sounds cliche. But it's how I feel.)

I don't need to share details here. But I WAS influenced by something that was said in this thread. Thank you again, Rookie, for claiming this small space for us to share.


----------



## Zanne

Thundarr said:


> That's no surprise Zanne. A active WS or a WS who doesn't think they did much wrong is not what this forum is built for.
> 
> TAM is 'The Marriage Advice and Relationship Help Forums'. It's common knowledge that anyone who is not remorseful about betraying their relationship and spouse goes against the theme.


Totally get that. I was just pointing out the obvious. I'm not trying to change the theme. There appears to be no gray area here and sometimes people don't fall into neat little categories.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Zanne said:


> BTW, I have decided to bring everything into the light in my life and let the chips fall where they may. I encouraged the OM to do the same.
> 
> I have lacked the courage for many reasons, *but regardless of the outcome, I believe the truth will set me free.* (Sorry, I know that sounds cliche. But it's how I feel.)
> 
> I don't need to share details here. But I WAS influenced by something that was said in this thread. Thank you again, Rookie, for claiming this small space for us to share.













Zanne, is this woman advising you?

there are message boards that support people who decide to cheat. TAM is just not one those boards.

You and most others here, including myself, have different opinions about cheaters and cheating. Now that that is in the open, what exactly are you hoping to achieve?


----------



## MikeBrant

In all honesty no one attacked. Although I got scared a little bit when someone called me the "not a troll" guy. And I understand where he is coming from. 

Staystrong, her husband knew about me, but he no longer cared, that what she told me. 

then one day when I was with her at the grocery store, we ran into her husband, and she told him, in a very unceremonious way, actually she threw it to his face. She said something to the effect of, "He is the one who gave me the flue, and now we cant even find where those flue tab are"

I swear to God I almost fainted in shock


----------



## MikeBrant

The peculiar think about this woman is that no one wants to be with her, her husband told her to find a boyfriend, and her affair partner wants a non exclusive relationship with her. 

Hence her monogamous tendencies.


----------



## NextTimeAround

So Mike, what is your status in regards to a relationship with this woman now? And what would you like to be your next step?

Back when I was single, I like to think that I was sensitive to the signs that someone may be married. For example, the guy is always calling me .... so that he can control when we speak on the phone. He can't plan a date in advance or keep a date that was planned in advance. and so on.......

I am amazed when someone says that they have been on more than 3 dates with someone and it never dawned on them -- until it was too late -- that the other person was married.

What was your situation that this "small" matter did not enter your mind?


----------



## MikeBrant

NextTimeAround said:


> Back when I was single, I like to think that I was sensitive to the signs that someone may be married. For example, the guy is always calling me .... so that he can control when we speak on the phone. He can't plan a date in advance or keep a date that was planned in advance. and so on.......


I should have seen it , because, every time we got together it was kind of a surprise date, we could never plan a date ahead of time, and I couldn't call her unless she called me. 

But half truths different from full blown lie in the fact that they are harder to uncover. She never hid the fact that she was married from me.

But again she told me that the only reason they could not divorce was for their financial situation

I no longer talk with the woman. I thought we could remain friends but she rather want in her harem of lover since she claim to be poly amorous. Which is out of question for me


----------



## Zanne

NextTimeAround said:


> there are message boards that support people who decide to cheat. TAM is just not one those boards.
> 
> You and most others here, including myself, have different opinions about cheaters and cheating. Now that that is in the open, what exactly are you hoping to achieve?


What?? I'm not looking for support to cheat! I came to TAM almost two years ago looking for advice about my marriage. I was actually dismayed to see how easy it was for people to recommend divorce. I specifically mentioned in my first thread that I was a Christian because I didn't want anybody to give me an easy way out. I wanted to do the "right" thing. In some ways, I am still on that journey so I continue to read and post on TAM; just usually not in CWI.

"Regardless of the outcome" means, I don't know what will happen to me when I come clean, but I will be *free* from living a life of deception.


----------



## xakulax

Zanne said:


> What?? I'm not looking for support to cheat! I came to TAM almost two years ago looking for advice about my marriage. I was actually* dismayed to see how easy it was for people to recommend divorce. *I specifically mentioned in my first thread that I was a Christian because I didn't want anybody to give me an easy way out. I wanted to do the "right" thing. In some ways, I am still on that journey so I continue to read and post on TAM; just usually not in CWI.
> 
> "Regardless of the outcome" means, I don't know what will happen to me when I come clean, but I will be *free* from living a life of deception.



The reason why is because what you're doing to your, husband, your family and , yourself is wrong Zanne come on you know this You can't use your religion or faith as a means to avoid responsibility.


----------



## Regret214

Guys...come on! She just said that she's going to tell all and let the chips fall where they may. That's what everyone has asked from the beginning. Now that she's going to actually do it, it's disheartening that there's continued bashing.

Zanne, I would only ask that you make sure you hold nothing back. There's no reason to withhold any information from him. He deserves nothing less than the full and honest truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

Regret214 said:


> Guys...come on! She just said that she's going to tell all and let the chips fall where they may. That's what everyone has asked from the beginning. Now that she's going to actually do it, it's disheartening that there's continued bashing.
> 
> Zanne, I would only ask that you make sure you hold nothing back. There's no reason to withhold any information from him. He deserves nothing less than the full and honest truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She stated back in May she was going to stop contact with OM and tell OMW about the affair. Obviously she changed her mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanne

Regret214 said:


> Guys...come on! She just said that she's going to tell all and let the chips fall where they may. That's what everyone has asked from the beginning. Now that she's going to actually do it, it's disheartening that there's continued bashing.
> 
> Zanne, I would only ask that you make sure you hold nothing back. There's no reason to withhold any information from him. He deserves nothing less than the full and honest truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, Regret. It's not as positive as it would seem as I'm not doing it to reconcile with my husband and I know it won't make him feel any better, although he recently asked me to just be honest with him about if I am seeing someone else. At first I viewed it as a trick because I figured he will use it against me. But now I don't even care anymore. I'm just tired of the games and trying to control the outcome of everything.


----------



## Regret214

pidge70 said:


> She stated back in May she was going to stop contact with OM and tell OMW about the affair. Obviously she changed her mind.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll still support her for telling the truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

Zanne said:


> Thanks, Regret. It's not as positive as it would seem as I'm not doing it to reconcile with my husband and I know it won't make him feel any better, although he recently asked me to just be honest with him about if I am seeing someone else. At first I viewed it as a trick because I figured he will use it against me. But now I don't even care anymore. I'm just tired of the games and trying to control the outcome of everything.


Oh, I know you're not going to reconcile. That's totally yours and his choice. However, it's still vital that you're completely honest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honcho

Zanne said:


> Thanks, Regret. It's not as positive as it would seem as I'm not doing it to reconcile with my husband and I know it won't make him feel any better, although he recently asked me to just be honest with him about if I am seeing someone else. At first I viewed it as a trick because I figured he will use it against me. But now I don't even care anymore. I'm just tired of the games and trying to control the outcome of everything.


It will make him feel better in the long run and you.


----------



## Zanne

Regret214 said:


> Oh, I know you're not going to reconcile. That's totally yours and his choice. However, it's still vital that you're completely honest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I decided it's the only way to move forward AT THIS POINT in this whole mess without regret because what's done is done. They may not like what I tell them. They may not respect me for my choices. They may not even love me anymore. But I can't undo what I've done and further, keeping everything in the dark serves no good purpose.


----------



## Dyokemm

Zanne, 

Good for you on the decision to just be totally honest and upfront with all of the people you have hurt and wronged, especially your STBxBH...he deserves at least that much.

I;m guessing you are leaving the exposure to POSOM's family to him, since you only 'encouraged' him to do so.

Wee if he decides to continue to be a coward, after your BH is told about him, I hope your BH makes sure this poor woman knows her life is a lie and she has a serial cheating POS for a WH.

I have often been blunt with you in the past Zanne, but never insulting or disrespectful towards you....I will admit here that this statement DOES NOT apply to the things I have had to say about your POSOM, and I still stand by those....In fact, despite your bad choices and stubborn refusal for a long time to do the right thing by those you had wronged, I saw a unhappy, confused, and lost woman who I still somehow hoped would start doing what she knew in both her heart and head was the right thing.

I'm happy to see you are going to take the first step in that direction....now follow through.

Best of luck.


----------



## karole

Zanne said:


> What?? I'm not looking for support to cheat! I came to TAM almost two years ago looking for advice about my marriage. I was actually dismayed to see how easy it was for people to recommend divorce. I specifically mentioned in my first thread that I was a Christian because I didn't want anybody to give me an easy way out. I wanted to do the "right" thing. In some ways, I am still on that journey so I continue to read and post on TAM; just usually not in CWI.
> 
> "Regardless of the outcome" means, I don't know what will happen to me when I come clean, but I will be *free* from living a life of deception.


If you aren't going to tell the OM's wife you aren't coming completely clean and I don't think you will.


----------



## Regret214

The OM needs to man up and tell his wife. That shouldn't be on Zanne.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

"Well, I decided it's the only way to move forward AT THIS POINT in this whole mess without regret because what's done is done. They may not like what I tell them. They may not respect me for my choices. They may not even love me anymore. But I can't undo what I've done and further, keeping everything in the dark serves no good purpose"

Zanne,

I am a little shocked to see you write that your family may no longer respect, or even love you, after you get all the hidden details out.

I thought that the vast majority of the information was indeed out already?....I thought you were just withholding POSOM's identity to protect him and the fact that you have occasionally seen POS since the first PA weekend getaway.

Are there other details of this A, or other previous infidelity incidents, that you have been afraid to share here on TAM, for whatever reason, that would lead to such a strong reaction from your family and children, who are basically aware of almost all of it as far as I knew.

I hope you were speaking rhetorically, and there are no new major revelations you have decided to finally release to bring closure.

I agree, anything and everything should be exposed and apologized for, even if the apologies are not accepted.

My concern is whether your already battered BH and family are due doe a MAJOR shock out of the blue.


----------



## Zanne

Dyokemm said:


> My concern is whether your already battered BH and family are due doe a MAJOR shock out of the blue.


No, Dyokemm, no major shock for them. Just stuff they don't want to hear.

Also, I fully intended to keep everything a secret right up until my divorce and then let my family believe I just met someone new.

I'll post the rest of my answer on my thread so as not to derail this thread anymore.


----------



## Healer

Zanne said:


> What?? I'm not looking for support to cheat! I came to TAM almost two years ago looking for advice about my marriage. I was actually dismayed to see how easy it was for people to recommend divorce. I specifically mentioned in my first thread that I was a Christian because I didn't want anybody to give me an easy way out. I wanted to do the "right" thing. In some ways, I am still on that journey so I continue to read and post on TAM; just usually not in CWI.
> 
> "Regardless of the outcome" means, I don't know what will happen to me when I come clean, but I will be *free* from living a life of deception.


2 years you've been here and you're still cheating on your husband. I'd say TAM has been one motherf*cker of a waste of time for you.


----------



## Healer

Zanne said:


> Also, I fully intended to keep everything a secret right up until my divorce and then let my family believe I just met someone new.


I have to ask, and I don't mean this as an insult or to be inflammatory. Have you been tested for personality disorder?


----------



## bandit.45

Healer said:


> Wow. Just...wow.


Yeah, but Zanne is damn fascinating. You have to give her that.


----------



## Healer

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah, but Zanne is damn fascinating. You have to give her that.


Yes, unadulterated cruelty is, sadly, a fascinating phenomenon.


----------



## Wolf1974

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah, but Zanne is damn fascinating. You have to give her that.


 She does all the classic things a cheater does: justify, blame shift and so on. Seems almost textbook to me. I would says the only thing unique here is that she is In process of carrying on her affair and justifying it where other WS here are done with theirs and reflecting back.


----------



## staystrong

She's willing to accept the fact that she'll keep secrets from her family in order to cause less drama and protect the AP.

Quite common, really.


----------



## soulpotato

It seems to me that this forum (actually, most of TAM) isn't really for even the remorseful former waywards (well, only a few get the gold star). And even then, they're on tolerance. Then one gets to have people assuming what one thinks and feels without even being ASKED. Which is more aggravation than I need in my life, lol. TAM would be far more helpful if people wanted to discuss rather than bash or attack. I would love to have non-judgmental, non-confrontational conversations with people here.

Why does a small group of people get to decide who is worthy of help and who is not?


----------



## jld

soulpotato said:


> It seems to me that this forum (actually, most of TAM) isn't really for even the remorseful former waywards (well, only a few get the gold star). And even then, they're on tolerance. Then one gets to have people assuming what one thinks and feels without even being ASKED. Which is more aggravation than I need in my life, lol. TAM would be far more helpful if people wanted to discuss rather than bash or attack. I would love to have non-judgmental, non-confrontational conversations with people here.
> 
> *Why does a small group of people get to decide who is worthy of help and who is not*?


Because there are enough of them who back each other up, to prevent them from ever having to really take responsibility for the relationship. They hide behind 50/50, it was not their fault, they are the victim mentality.

I think in most relationships, one partner has more power. I think it is on that partner to take more responsibility for how the relationship goes.

I think the problem for some people is that even if they have more power, they do not feel like they do, and they do not know how to use it. Some may just choose not to use it. 

All the emphasis on equality, or sameness, between the sexes, probably does not help that, either.


----------



## russell28

soulpotato said:


> It seems to me that this forum (actually, most of TAM) isn't really for even the remorseful former waywards (well, only a few get the gold star). And even then, they're on tolerance. Then one gets to have people assuming what one thinks and feels without even being ASKED. Which is more aggravation than I need in my life, lol. TAM would be far more helpful if people wanted to discuss rather than bash or attack. I would love to have non-judgmental, non-confrontational conversations with people here.
> 
> Why does a small group of people get to decide who is worthy of help and who is not?


I think one problem is that former waywards have a history of telling lies and BS have a history of being lied to, and when the two meet, the BS here have trouble believing in the sincerity of some of the former WS. The experts say it takes years to redevelop trust for your spouse after betrayal, and that's if they do everything the right way. No trickle truth, no gas lighting, true remorse etc.. So when a BS here sees a WS say or do anything they perceive as being one of those types of things, it can trigger them. Most aren't past the two year mark yet, many are new to this whole infidelity thing. Basically, if we can't trust our own WS yet, how are we supposed to trust random WS typing words on the Internet?

Here's an example of something that set me off.

One very popular former WS here attacked a BS that writes a blog, accusing her husband of being a divorce attorney and her of trying to earn a living through him off of betrayed spouses. She gave out a bunch of false information, then when called on it gave a half hearted apology. Should we coddle her, and allow her to tell lies and lash out against the mean BS that doesn't talk nice about cheaters? or are we supposed to point out to her that she seems angry, perhaps get concerned for her BS that she is angry with a betrayed spouse that writes a blog that paints cheaters in a bad light. Why does she feel the need to protect the (mostly serial) cheaters on that site? I wondered. I feel the need to have the back of the BS, not the WS in that situation. Even if the BS claims to be fine, I might still be concerned for them and want to point something out to the WS about how they should watch something, or be aware of something. Not to hurt them, but to help them. Sometimes things are hard to hear, and that's not because we want to hurt, or select who we help. Help isn't always fun and great news.. sometimes the truth isn't fun to hear. 

So I guess we question 'remorseful' constantly. We don't just figure that anyone that claims to have remorse, actually has it. We watch closely for actions, because words are cheap, and on a forum, there are only words. So we disect the words and try to read between the lines for any signs that a WS is full of it.


----------



## jld

I think Zanne has a conscience. She clearly does not like what she is doing. But she is tired of feeling starved, too.

Humans who feel starved eventually do not put the rules about stealing above their need to stay alive.

Zanne, I feel compassion towards you and always have. I wish your husband could have been a stronger man. I wish he had not been so passive. I wish he had said If there is a problem here, I caused it. I wish he had not relied on you to do 50% or more of the work. I wish he had been, or even now would be, a leader. I think you could feel very differently toward him if he could change.

But unless he has a Come to Jesus moment, I totally understand why you will have no regret about leaving him. What are you leaving, really? Your kids are all nearly grown. You married as a teenager, right? Right there it is not surprising you have had some of these problems. I think it is a lot to ask for lifetime fidelity when you have only been with one man, and since your teenage years. Some manage it, and I think they are exceptional.

I think it is good you post here. We are all learning from you, and you are learning, too. Please do not take what other posters tell you personally. They read your posts with their own background in mind. They do not want to feel guilty over what they may have done wrong in a relationship. They would rather hide behind 50/50, they do not have to take any responsibility thinking. Easier to sleep that way. But very little growth.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> I think Zanne has a conscience. She clearly does not like what she is doing. But she is tired of feeling starved, too.
> 
> Humans who feel starved eventually do not put the rules about stealing above their need to stay alive.
> 
> Zanne, I feel compassion towards you and always have. I wish your husband could have been a stronger man. I wish he had not been so passive. I wish *he had said If there is a problem here, I caused it*. I wish he had not relied on you to do 50% or more of the work. I wish he had been, or even now would be, a leader. I think you could feel very differently toward him if he could change.
> 
> But unless he has a Come to Jesus moment, I totally understand why you will have no regret about leaving him. What are you leaving, really? Your kids are all nearly grown. *You married as a teenager*, right? Right there it is not surprising you have had some of these problems. I think it is a lot to ask for lifetime fidelity when you have *only been with one man*, and since your teenage years. *Some manage it*, and I think *they are exceptional*.
> 
> I think it is good you post here. We are all learning from you, and you are learning, too. Please do not take what other posters tell you personally. They read your posts with their own background in mind. They do not want to feel guilty over what *they may have done wrong in a relationship*. They would rather hide behind 50/50, they do not have to take any responsibility thinking. Easier to sleep that way. But very little growth.


I'm learning what blame shifting looks like. 

She just wants you to validate what she's doing, so she can sleep at night. You are doing a great job supporting her.

Her husband probably sleeps easy at night because he has no idea what is really going on. I bet he doesn't sleep so well when he finds out his wife has been telling him lies.


...oh, and I'm exceptional because I've managed to stay faithful to a girl I've been with since I was 17. Getting married young is now an excuse to cheat? That's a new one I'll have to add to the 'reasons'.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> Because there are enough of them who back each other up, to prevent them from ever having to really take responsibility for the relationship. They hide behind 50/50, it was not their fault, they are the victim mentality.
> 
> I think in most relationships, one partner has more power. I think it is on that partner to take more responsibility for how the relationship goes.
> 
> I think the problem for some people is that even if they have more power, they do not feel like they do, and they do not know how to use it. Some may just choose not to use it.
> 
> All the emphasis on equality, or sameness, between the sexes, probably does not help that, either.



What do you mean by adopting a "victim mentality"? I think you are saying that the BS becomes the persecutor, once moved out of the victim chair. 

People who get cheated on ARE victims. Waywards tend to blame the victims.

Now, that's not to say that WS's didn't suffer somehow in the marriage. But we typically find is that way wards have a laundry list of issues they never brought up directly or which are fairly lame excuses which should not be counted at all. 

I think the point is there is no justification for an affair. If someone wants to speak about pre-affair issues in the context of growth and healing, the BS should tune in. Obviously. But if the WS uses those issues as the causation of why they cheated, then you see the problem. It's fair to say a WS may not have felt they could approach their spouse, but it's not fair to say they needed a member of the opposite sex to listen, to share feelings, to have sex. The investigation should be on why the WS could not simply utter some words, write it down, say it in a fight even. This is usually due to conflict avoidance or in some cases, really "trying" and getting nowhere. They made a poor choice to cheat instead of divorce, but if a BS was truly neglectful, abusive, etc then I would give them more leeway. Saying the BS was "controlling" does not cut it. Specific examples, please. 

I know your backstory, jld, and I don't count that as typical AT ALL of the stories we see on this board. Neither is Zanne's.


----------



## NextTimeAround

soulpotato said:


> It seems to me that this forum (actually, most of TAM) isn't really for even the remorseful former waywards (well, only a few get the gold star). And even then, they're on tolerance. Then one gets to have people assuming what one thinks and feels without even being ASKED. Which is more aggravation than I need in my life, lol. TAM would be far more helpful if people wanted to discuss rather than bash or attack. I would love to have non-judgmental, non-confrontational conversations with people here.
> 
> *Why does a small group of people get to decide who is worthy of help and who is not?*


I don't think it is a small group.

You will find on every message board in cyberspace that there is a certain majority ethos. If you don' agree with that ethos then you need to find another message board that supports you AND in the way that you want to be supported.

ivillage had at one time a message board for mistresses. Maybe it still does. And I think loveshack.org has a section for those who are having affairs. 

IRL, for example, you would not join the Ku Klux Klan if you believed in rights for people of color. Ergo, you should not go to an established online community and expect it to change its beliefs just for you.


----------



## staystrong

JLD, do you support Zanne in hiding her AP until after divorce?


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> I'm learning what blame shifting looks like.
> 
> She just wants you to validate what she's doing, so she can sleep at night. You are doing a great job supporting her.
> 
> Her husband probably sleeps easy at night because he has no idea what is really going on. I bet he doesn't sleep so well when he finds out his wife has been telling him lies.
> 
> ...oh, and I'm exceptional because I've managed to stay faithful to a girl I've been with since I was 17. Getting married young is now an excuse to cheat? That's a new one I'll have to add to the 'reasons'.


I don't think either Zanne or her husband sleep well at night. And I think if he would take his responsibilities as the likely more dominant partner in the relationship, she would be drawn back to him. But sameness between the sexes, equality thinking, is unlikely to get them there.

I read recently that when men marry, they are committing to one woman. Again, there are exceptions. But the article emphasized that marriage is a significant commitment for a man. 

I think for women, while they too believe in marital vows, they expect to not just be ignored and taken for granted. Not feeling cherished, in the way they define cherished, can leave them vulnerable to much that, imo, in their heart of hearts, they do not really want.

I know men, or at least some of them, do not want to hear this. They want to feel justified in their resentment. They do not want to look at their hand in it.

I don't get the blame game. Do you want her in your life, or not? 

Taking responsibility for the relationship could end with your getting very much the wife you want. Hiding behind 50/50, unless you both are wired that way, seems unlikely to get you there. My opinion.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> JLD, do you support Zanne in hiding her AP until after divorce?


I believe in transparency, staystrong. I hate hiding. I hate anything other than honesty and openness. But I also have compassion for people and their admitted weaknesses. We all have them, staystrong.

Zanne, honey, I do not know what to say to you. I bet you would love to be transparent. I am sure you are sick of hiding. I bet deep down you do not have true respect for your AP. How could you, when he is hiding, too? Who respects a man like that? He is a coward.

I am so sorry, Zanne, that you are in this position. And I am sorry that it was coming to TAM that brought it about.

Zanne, you talked once about leaving both your husband and AP. Is that still an option?

What I would really like to see is your husband becoming stronger in himself and taking charge of your marriage. I think if he would start being honest with himself, and proactive, you would be drawn to him again.

Yes, I do think it is on the man to maintain the attraction of the woman. Might seem unfair, but it think it may be the reality, in the majority of relationships.

Said more clearly: the more dominant partner needs to maintain the attraction of the less dominant partner, if the relationship is to be maintained.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> I don't think either Zanne or her husband sleep well at night. And I think if he would take his responsibilities as the likely more dominant partner in the relationship, she would be drawn back to him. But sameness between the sexes, equality thinking, is unlikely to get them there.
> 
> I read recently that when men marry, they are committing to one woman. Again, there are exceptions. But the article emphasized that marriage is a significant commitment for a man.
> 
> I think for women, while they too believe in marital vows, they expect to not just be ignored and taken for granted. Not feeling cherished, in the way they define cherished, can leave them vulnerable to much that, imo, in their heart of hearts, they do not really want.
> 
> I know men, or at least some of them, do not want to hear this. They want to feel justified in their resentment. They do not want to look at their hand in it.
> 
> I don't get the blame game. Do you want her in your life, or not?
> 
> Taking responsibility for the relationship could end with your getting very much the wife you want. Hiding behind 50/50, unless you both are wired that way, seems unlikely to get you there. My opinion.


If you know my story, you know that my wife cheated.. her mother cheated.. her grandmother cheated.. her aunt cheated.. her mother married her AP and cheated on him...

You're saying that I need to look at my hand in it, my FIL needs to look at it.. My MIL's AP husband needs to look at it.. grandpa needs to look at it...

When exactly do the cheaters have to look at perhaps the REAL reasons why they are cheating and stop blaming the husbands for not being perfect?

MIL's reason was the hubby worked two jobs and went to school (trying to pay rent and raise his daughters). He bought ten dollars in scratch tickets a week. She turned that into him never being there for her, and him having a gambling problem. Lets ignore that she was a flirt and a tease and dressed like a tramp and strutted her stuff around work trying to get attention from men until she found one.

She sat on the couch, smoked cigarettes and read romance novels... told her daughters to clean the house and cook dinner. I remember him bringing her flowers, taking her places, trying to be a good dad as best he could. Always gave us rides places and did things for my wife and I. I don't remember her ever doing anything for us.

I guess that was him doing 20% and her doing 80%?

The AP she married and cheated on, he has a job, he does hobbies and stuff.. she sits home does meds and plays farmville. She got fat, he stays in shape.. He's in IC, she's good with her meds.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> What do you mean by adopting a "victim mentality"? I think you are saying that the BS becomes the persecutor, once moved out of the victim chair. This "She did me wrong" thinking. It gives her the power, while he lets the acid of resentment eat him to the bone.
> 
> Persecutor? Hmm. I do not find these men very powerful. If they cannot look objectively at what went wrong, and heal, I think they are doing themselves and women a favor by staying single.
> 
> People who get cheated on ARE victims. Waywards tend to blame the victims. I think a man who feels like a victim of a woman is unlikely to appeal to many other women. Just does not convey strength. My opinion.
> 
> Now, that's not to say that WS's didn't suffer somehow in the marriage. But we typically find is that way wards have a laundry list of issues they never brought up directly or which are fairly lame excuses which *should not be counted at all.*By whom? By the man who insists on feeling like a victim? You realize he is just limiting himself with that, right?
> 
> Whenever you feel like a victim, you are giving other people power over you. Why doing that?
> 
> I think the point is there is no justification for an affair. I do not think anybody feels good about an affair. I don't think anybody feels good about lying, either. If someone wants to speak about pre-affair issues in the context of growth and healing, the BS should tune in. Obviously. But if the WS uses those issues as the causation of why they cheated, then you see the problem. It's fair to say a WS may not have felt they could approach their spouse, but it's not fair to say they needed a member of the opposite sex to listen, to share feelings, to have sex. The investigation should be on why the WS could not simply utter some words, write it down, say it in a fight even. Do you get that they are weak people? Do you think strong people have affairs? I wish the betrayeds could see their strength, and the wayward's weakness. It would relieve them of resentment, and help them find a constructive solution. This is usually due to conflict avoidance or in some cases, really "trying" and getting nowhere. They made a poor choice to cheat instead of divorce, but if a BS was truly neglectful, abusive, etc then I would give them more leeway. Saying the BS was "controlling" does not cut it. Specific examples, please. I am not thinking in terms of assigning blame. I am focusing on how to solve the problem.
> 
> Stay strong, a woman needs to feel attracted to you to stay faithful. She needs to feel you have more power than the other men she feels attracted to. Power is defined differently by different women.
> 
> Find out what speaks power to her, and develop that. Maintain it. I think that is the secret to maintaining attraction.
> 
> I know your backstory, jld, and I don't count that as typical AT ALL of the stories we see on this board. Neither is Zanne's.
> Clarification, please? What do you know?


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> The AP she married and cheated on, he has a job, he does hobbies and stuff.. she sits home does meds and plays farmville. She got fat, he stays in shape.. He's in IC, she's good with her meds.


Why do you want to stay married to her?

Do you ever look at what you and all the betrayed men in your wife's family have in common? Why do you accept it?

Russell, are you honest with yourself? Set aside the anger. Look at what is under that. 

I know it is hard, but sitting around feeling aggrieved cannot be easy, either.

Have you ever thought about saying, "I cannot give you what you need, wife. You need to get it from some other man, like your mother did." And then filing, and moving on with your life?


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> Why do you want to stay married to her?
> 
> Do you ever look at what you and all the betrayed men in your wife's family have in common? Why do you accept it?
> 
> Russell, are you honest with yourself? Set aside the anger. Look at what is under that.
> 
> I know it is hard, but sitting around feeling aggrieved cannot be easy, either.
> 
> Have you ever thought about saying, "I cannot give you what you need, wife. You need to get it from some other man, like your mother did." And then filing, and moving on with your life?


I didn't accept it. I required her to be honest with herself and me, and not pull any of the bull her mom or grandma pulled. The same bull you're trying to slip past the folks here.

Grandpa had no idea.. FIL got booted out of his house by his wife and her AP, so he really didn't have a choice but to accept it.. and AP guy is a fool to still be with my MIL since he's 15 years younger and they have no kids, but he has no spine... and she's chubby now and going crazy.

What we have in common, is that we married women that have a history of blame shifting gas lighting and cheating. I'm trying to break that chain so my daughters don't repeat. Folks like you never help the situation with all your coddling of cheaters and excuse making for their poor behavior. They need help by showing them how selfish actions hurt innocent people, not by showing them how they are justified and how the spouse wasn't perfect or strong enough.

FIL is doing fine in his new relationship too btw. His wife hasn't strayed on him, so perhaps he learned his lesson?

.. and please spare me the 'set aside the anger' preachy stuff. I could say the same to you.. 'please try to look at why you blame yourself for every failure in your relationships...' 

Edit: Also, I was able to give her what she needed for almost three decades before she cheated.. to blow another hole in your theories.


----------



## Zanne

NextTimeAround said:


> I don't think it is a small group.
> 
> You will find on every message board in cyberspace that there is a certain majority ethos. If you don' agree with that ethos then you need to find another message board that supports you AND in the way that you want to be supported.
> 
> ivillage had at one time a message board for mistresses. Maybe it still does. And I think loveshack.org has a section for those who are having affairs.
> 
> IRL, for example, you would not join the Ku Klux Klan if you believed in rights for people of color. Ergo, you should not go to an established online community and expect it to change its beliefs just for you.


It is frustrating to be told what you're thinking. Wasted words because nobody listens. I have my own triggers and that's one of them. My husband says a lot of "YOU think this." or "YOU think that." Really? You're inside my head now??

As for this message board, I actually found it a little seedy when I first discovered it. And the design is cheesy, but I guess that I can deal. However, on the plus side, this is an active board with a varied population. I've met some really cool people here.

The problem with the Christian based sites I found is that they are expert rug sweepers (just like the Church!). I have enough of that in my own life.

Love Shack? Ew.


----------



## aug

russell28 said:


> *I'm learning what blame shifting looks like.
> *
> She just wants you to validate what she's doing, so she can sleep at night. You are doing a great job supporting her.
> 
> Her husband probably sleeps easy at night because he has no idea what is really going on. I bet he doesn't sleep so well when he finds out his wife has been telling him lies.
> 
> 
> ...oh, and I'm exceptional because I've managed to stay faithful to a girl I've been with since I was 17. Getting married young is now an excuse to cheat? That's a new one I'll have to add to the 'reasons'.



Yes, exactly. It's an acquired skill learning how to detect.


----------



## aug

Zanne said:


> It is frustrating to be told what you're thinking.* Wasted words because nobody listens. *I have my own triggers and that's one of them. My husband says a lot of "YOU think this." or "YOU think that." Really? You're inside my head now??
> 
> As for this message board, I actually found it a little seedy when I first discovered it. And the design is cheesy, but I guess that I can deal. However, on the plus side, this is an active board with a varied population. I've met some really cool people here.
> 
> *The problem with the Christian based sites I found is that they are expert rug sweepers (just like the Church!). I have enough of that in my own life.*
> 
> Love Shack? Ew.






Oh, the irony! Didn't you say you are a Christian too? That makes you an expert rug sweeper too (as you have shown repeatedly here).

:smthumbup:


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> I believe in transparency, staystrong. I hate hiding. I hate anything other than honesty and openness. But I also have compassion for people and their admitted weaknesses. We all have them, staystrong.
> 
> Zanne, honey, I do not know what to say to you. I bet you would love to be transparent. I am sure you are sick of hiding. I bet deep down you do not have true respect for your AP. How could you, when he is hiding, too? Who respects a man like that? He is a coward.
> 
> I am so sorry, Zanne, that you are in this position. And I am sorry that it was coming to TAM that brought it about.
> 
> Zanne, you talked once about leaving both your husband and AP. Is that still an option?
> 
> What I would really like to see is your husband becoming stronger in himself and taking charge of your marriage. I think if he would start being honest with himself, and proactive, you would be drawn to him again.
> 
> Yes, I do think it is on the man to maintain the attraction of the woman. Might seem unfair, but it think it may be the reality, in the majority of relationships.
> 
> Said more clearly: the more dominant partner needs to maintain the attraction of the less dominant partner, if the relationship is to be maintained.


Let me first apologize for calling out another member. I think Zanne is as important here as anyone else because it adds just another viewpoint, and as I'll show below, I may not agree with her decisions, her viewpoints are no less valid and important than my own.

Here's where I have an issue with cheaters like Zanne.

She READILY ADMITS she stays with her husband for his paycheck. She is USING him for his money. She's not moving forward.

When she first talks about her cheating, she tells a truly compelling STORY about how her husband has x,y and z issues and their marriage has a, b and c issues, but instead of dealing with them she goes out and has MULTIPLE affairs. If one of her AP's gets close, she dismisses him because she doesn't want her extracurricular activities to interfere with her comfortable life.

Part of remorse is to then DO THE RIGHT THING! You recognize the problems and mistakes that were made, you take ownership of your components within those problems and mistakes...and JUST AS IMPORTANT....you move forward and FIX THIS SITUATION.

All Zanne is, is a cake-eater who is either too lazy, scared or (worstly) MEAN to change anything. 

Why hasn't she just filed for divorce? Why does she stay in an affair if she isn't going to divorce?

You can say anything you want, but those two questions only have one answer. She's not abused and having her life threatened. It's just a choice.

PS her husband has always been this way, she's the one who changed and became dissatisfied. I will always NEVER believe a cake eater that THEIR PERCEPTIONS are 100% truth of the situation. I believe it's just that, their perception. The problem with perceptions is they can be manipulated to suit our desires. I can convince myself about a perception, even if it's 51% accurate in reality.

JLD, I think you know my views, I agree men need to be strong and be in a leadership role in a marriage, but I DO believe in a 50/50 situation. My wife and I talk about every decision in our house. There are times where she's adamant and I concede during those times, there's times where I'm adamant, and the likewise happens, then there are times where she's wishy washy and I just make a decision to move forward, after we've talked exhaustively.


----------



## Zanne

jld said:


> I believe in transparency, staystrong. I hate hiding. I hate anything other than honesty and openness. But I also have compassion for people and their admitted weaknesses. We all have them, staystrong.
> 
> Zanne, honey, I do not know what to say to you. I bet you would love to be transparent. I am sure you are sick of hiding. I bet deep down you do not have true respect for your AP. How could you, when he is hiding, too? Who respects a man like that? He is a coward.
> 
> I am so sorry, Zanne, that you are in this position. And I am sorry that it was coming to TAM that brought it about.
> 
> Zanne, you talked once about leaving both your husband and AP. Is that still an option?
> 
> What I would really like to see is your husband becoming stronger in himself and taking charge of your marriage. I think if he would start being honest with himself, and proactive, you would be drawn to him again.
> 
> Yes, I do think it is on the man to maintain the attraction of the woman. Might seem unfair, but it think it may be the reality, in the majority of relationships.
> 
> Said more clearly: the more dominant partner needs to maintain the attraction of the less dominant partner, if the relationship is to be maintained.


jld, my husband is......limited. It is something I've accepted. Why fight it? He will most likely never be the person I desire him to be and I have trouble accepting him the way he is. It's a constant struggle. I was 16 when I chose him. The qualities I found attractive then are not important to me now. I feel like I grew as a person over the years and he did not.

There is a host of reasons why I stayed. For one, I truly believe in the sanctity of marriage. I tried to keep us in that state, but for the wrong reasons. Lots of lessons there, still learning. It has more to do with me and my character.

I do respect my AP because of the way he treats me and for the ways I know that he takes care of his family, among other reasons. It's complicated. He is hiding to protect them, just like me.

OTOH, I don't respect the choices we are both making and that's why I have been talking to him about being transparent. I don't want the turmoil it will create in his life, but I do wish for him to be free of the deception for his own peace. He will have to make that determination.

My goal right now is to be independent which means moving out of my family home, getting a place of my own and supporting myself. That's a goal I can focus on. And BTW, it is one my AP supports. If for whatever reason, the OM can't or won't leave his wife within a designated time (which I have in my mind), then I will move on, as difficult as it would be for me.


----------



## staystrong

Okay, JLD. Let's have a chat when you're a man and you find out your wife has been riding another man, on her knees doing everything he wanted. Many times.

Then you can tell me how strong and attractive you feel, and how much contempt your wife must have had for you. I suspect my bitterness is not attractive to you. 

I did wish to work on myself. For myself and for our relationship. I started that process.. started working out again, found a new job. I think my wife thought I got the job due to someone being charitable (partially true). So here I am being ranked on each and every thing which she may or may not find attractive. Meanwhile, she's been having a torrid affair. I later found out she'd brought then man into our home, onto our couch (I later changed that to 'bed' and she did not deny). Sooo... resentment? Yeah, you bet. 

The loss of attraction must have started earlier, prior to the affair. I can understand where it came from but I guess I was not experienced enough with her feminine ways to realize what would keep her attracted. She did try to change some things in me, which I resisted (and I look back and she was correct), but they were by way of slight suggestion. Plus, some things we don't wish to change. That's part of accepting each other. 

Once she got sexually stimulated and comparing me to this other man, I'm dead in the water. You can't compete with someone you don't know is a factor. 

I think vellocet is right... it almost sounds as if you are defending the feminine mystique as some righteous force which must be understood, tamed, released by some expertly masculine man. The OM is a fantasy.. every meet up is like a date.. every chat a new sexual exploration. We had a 1 and 4 year old at home.. how about her putting her big girl pants on too and being a mom, not a cheater?

Anyhow, I will heed the advice for my next relationship.


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> *I think Zanne has a conscience. She clearly does not like what she is doing.* But she is tired of feeling starved, too.
> 
> Humans who feel starved eventually do not put the rules about stealing above their need to stay alive.
> 
> Zanne, I feel compassion towards you and always have. I wish your husband could have been a stronger man. I wish he had not been so passive. I wish he had said If there is a problem here, I caused it. I wish he had not relied on you to do 50% or more of the work. I wish he had been, or even now would be, a leader. I think you could feel very differently toward him if he could change.
> 
> But unless he has a Come to Jesus moment, I totally understand why you will have no regret about leaving him. What are you leaving, really? Your kids are all nearly grown. You married as a teenager, right? Right there it is not surprising you have had some of these problems. I think it is a lot to ask for lifetime fidelity when you have only been with one man, and since your teenage years. Some manage it, and I think they are exceptional.
> 
> I think it is good you post here. We are all learning from you, and you are learning, too. Please do not take what other posters tell you personally. They read your posts with their own background in mind. They do not want to feel guilty over what they may have done wrong in a relationship. They would rather hide behind 50/50, they do not have to take any responsibility thinking. Easier to sleep that way. But very little growth.


You and I are just reading the same thing way different then. Because she is making a choice to cheat. Choice to lie. Choice not to change. NONE of these things are her husband doing or the church doing it is all things she is doing. That doesn't mean the husband gets a pass....maybe he is an ass I have no idea he isn't here. But what he does is beyond her control. What she does is completely within her control and no one else's fault.

People make mistakes all the time no doubt. But to recognize you made a mistake and the to keep purposely doing it then it's no longer a mistake but an intentional act. Not in the same ballpark.

Choice is one of the defining characteristics of character. 

When her situation blows up, and I have no doubt that it will, then it will be all about the continued lies and deceit not the physical affair. Again a choice she made to not get out gracefully. Then I assume that the post will turn to....my x hates me, my kids hate me, my friends left me and I don't understand why.......when she had all that in her control.

JLD you are talking about two different things in your last paragraph. A bad marriage is a learning experience for both partners. I had a bad marriage. My x thought it was worth less than me but I admit it wasn't perfect. But her choice to cheat was all on her. So the only lesson to be learned from my x is to not date people who previously cheated because I don't believe they really change or at least so few of them do it's not worth the risk. Now bad relationship your foolish to not try and learn something and grow.


----------



## jld

Ask for alimony and a fifty/fifty split of assets. You put in twenty years, Zanne. Just look at it objectively, not emotionally. You are going to need that money.

I feel for you, Zanne. I just do. I simply cannot condemn another woman who is all too human, imo. Any intelligent woman is not going to accept to starve forever.

Of course you want transparency. Any person with goodness in their soul does. 

Oh, Zanne, I am so sorry you are where you are. I think you are trying to act with integrity. I am sorry your husband cannot, or just does not have, more inside him.


----------



## staystrong

Zanne said:


> If for whatever reason, the OM can't or won't leave his wife within a designated time (which I have in my mind), then I will move on, as difficult as it would be for me.


Oh, he has kids?

The chance of him leaving is 10% if you follow the OW boards. 

My guess is you will extend that timeline.


----------



## Zanne

Dad&Hubby said:


> Let me first apologize for calling out another member. I think Zanne is as important here as anyone else because it adds just another viewpoint, and as I'll show below, I may not agree with her decisions, her viewpoints are no less valid and important than my own.
> 
> Here's where I have an issue with cheaters like Zanne.
> 
> She READILY ADMITS she stays with her husband for his paycheck. She is USING him for his money. She's not moving forward.
> 
> When she first talks about her cheating, she tells a truly compelling STORY about how her husband has x,y and z issues and their marriage has a, b and c issues, but instead of dealing with them she goes out and has MULTIPLE affairs. If one of her AP's gets close, she dismisses him because she doesn't want her extracurricular activities to interfere with her comfortable life.
> 
> Part of remorse is to then DO THE RIGHT THING! You recognize the problems and mistakes that were made, you take ownership of your components within those problems and mistakes...and JUST AS IMPORTANT....you move forward and FIX THIS SITUATION.
> 
> All Zanne is, is a cake-eater who is either too lazy, scared or (worstly) MEAN to change anything.
> 
> Why hasn't she just filed for divorce? Why does she stay in an affair if she isn't going to divorce?
> 
> You can say anything you want, but those two questions only have one answer. She's not abused and having her life threatened. It's just a choice.
> 
> PS her husband has always been this way, she's the one who changed and became dissatisfied. I will always NEVER believe a cake eater that THEIR PERCEPTIONS are 100% truth of the situation. I believe it's just that, their perception. The problem with perceptions is they can be manipulated to suit our desires. I can convince myself about a perception, even if it's 51% accurate in reality.
> 
> JLD, I think you know my views, I agree men need to be strong and be in a leadership role in a marriage, but I DO believe in a 50/50 situation. My wife and I talk about every decision in our house. There are times where she's adamant and I concede during those times, there's times where I'm adamant, and the likewise happens, then there are times where she's wishy washy and I just make a decision to move forward, after we've talked exhaustively.


I agree with some of what you wrote and respectfully disagree with a few points.

You're right that I am scared. I'm scared of the unknown, mostly.

I'm also afraid of how my husband will react. My choices are colored by my experiences in life. It takes courage for me to stand up for myself because I have been discouraged not to in the past.

We all have different experiences so I can't expect everybody to understand why I make the decisions I do which seem irrational.


----------



## Wolf1974

soulpotato said:


> It seems to me that this forum (actually, most of TAM) isn't really for even the remorseful former waywards (well, only a few get the gold star). And even then, they're on tolerance. Then one gets to have people assuming what one thinks and feels without even being ASKED. Which is more aggravation than I need in my life, lol. TAM would be far more helpful if people wanted to discuss rather than bash or attack. I would love to have non-judgmental, non-confrontational conversations with people here.
> 
> Why does a small group of people get to decide who is worthy of *help* and who is not?


Guess that's where we differ. What help are they asking for? If we are talking of Zanne I never saw her ask for help. If she has then she had received plenty of good advice about coming clean now before this blows up in her face. And it will. I think lots of the posters are trying to help by getting her to wake up about this fantasy world of the OM. Sentence after typed sentence have Been typed saying hey I have seen this go sideways before. Remember your vows. your husband deserves better than this. leave and save the relationship with your kids and your dignity. That's all helpful if she listens to many of us who lived this.

I don't see many WS asking for help. Just stating that it's ok to do what they are doing.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> Okay, JLD. Let's have a chat when you're a man and you find out your wife has been riding another man, on her knees doing everything he wanted. Many times.
> 
> Then you can tell me how strong and attractive you feel, and how much contempt your wife must have had for you. I suspect my bitterness is not attractive to you.
> 
> I did wish to work on myself. For myself and for our relationship. I started that process.. started working out again, found a new job. I think my wife thought I got the job due to someone being charitable (partially true). So here I am being ranked on each and every thing which she may or may not find attractive. Meanwhile, she's been having a torrid affair. I later found out she'd brought then man into our home, onto our couch (I later changed that to 'bed' and she did not deny). Sooo... resentment? Yeah, you bet.
> 
> The loss of attraction must have started earlier, prior to the affair. I can understand where it came from but I guess I was not experienced enough with her feminine ways to realize what would keep her attracted. She did try to change some things in me, which I resisted (and I look back and she was correct), but they were by way of slight suggestion. Plus, some things we don't wish to change. That's part of accepting each other.
> 
> Once she got sexually stimulated and comparing me to this other man, I'm dead in the water. You can't compete with someone you don't know is a factor.
> 
> I think vellocet is right... it almost sounds as if you are defending the feminine mystique as some righteous force which must be understood, tamed, released by some expertly masculine man. The OM is a fantasy.. every meet up is like a date.. every chat a new sexual exploration. We had a 1 and 4 year old at home.. how about her putting her big girl pants on too and being a mom, not a cheater?
> 
> Anyhow, I will heed the advice for my next relationship.


You seem more mature than many men I deal with on these boards, stay strong. I think you are a good man. Your next relationship will go better.

You are better off without that girl in your life. She is back in France? With your kids? Ouch.

Sometimes relationships do not work out. Better to let the other person go, if they do not want to be with you. Learn from it, and move on.

And I am sorry she hurt you. I really am. And I do believe that you have the strength to heal from it. I do not think you are going to be trapped in bitterness. You just don't give me that feeling. You seem sad, but not angry and bitter.


----------



## russell28

Zanne said:


> *I truly believe in the sanctity of marriage. *
> 
> I'm not hearing where or how you believe in the sanctity of marriage from what you write.
> 
> *I do respect my AP because of the way he treats me and for the ways I know that he takes care of his family, among other reasons.*
> 
> You respect a man that would help you break up your marriage, and that would abuse his wife like you are abusing your husband and families? You respect a man that tells lies, and sneaks and cheats like you do? Do you respect yourself too? Wouldn't you respect a man more that would be honest with people and not use and abuse them to get what he wants? Like you are using your husband to keep your comfortable life while you mess around on him and bad mouth him to the world?
> 
> What happens when you and this new guy get bored with each other (you grow, he doesn't), do you sneak behind each others backs to fulfill your needs, then blame each other for your own failures and bad choices?


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> You seem more nature than many men I deal with on these boards, stay strong. I think you are a good man. Your next relationship will go better.
> 
> You are better off without that girl in your life. She is back in France? With your kids? Ouch.
> 
> Sometimes relationships do not work out. Better to let the other person go, if they do not want to be with you. Learn from it, and move on.
> 
> And I am sorry she hurt you. I really am. And I do believe that you have the strength to heal from it. I do not think you are going to be trapped in bitterness. You just don't give me that feeling. You seem sad, but not angry and bitter.


Thank you, but to be honest I do have bitterness. It's taken a long to work through. I'm stuck in a small town in a foreign country while my Ex leads a good life with her friends and family here. That breeds major resentment. 

A friend of mine noted: Int'l relationships where the woman is in the man's country typically work out better than vice versa. Don't know if that's true but I can see where it would be. Men are at a disadvantage in the woman's country, and should things not go well in her eyes, there's a more secure base for her to leave.


----------



## staystrong

Attached for consideration...


----------



## jld

Wolf1974 said:


> You and I are just reading the same thing way different then. Because she is making a choice to cheat. Choice to lie. Choice not to change. NONE of these things are her husband doing or the church doing it is all things she is doing. That doesn't mean the husband gets a pass....maybe he is an ass I have no idea he isn't here. But what he does is beyond her control. What she does is completely within her control and no one else's fault.
> 
> People make mistakes all the time no doubt. But to recognize you made a mistake and the to keep purposely doing it then it's no longer a mistake but an intentional act. Not in the same ballpark.
> 
> Choice is one of the defining characteristics of character.
> 
> When her situation blows up, and I have no doubt that it will, then it will be all about the continued lies and deceit not the physical affair. Again a choice she made to not get out gracefully. Then I assume that the post will turn to....my x hates me, my kids hate me, my friends left me and I don't understand why.......when she had all that in her control.
> 
> JLD you are talking about two different things in your last paragraph. A bad marriage is a learning experience for both partners. I had a bad marriage. My x thought it was worth less than me but I admit it wasn't perfect. But her choice to cheat was all on her. So the only lesson to be learned from my x is to not date people who previously cheated because I don't believe they really change or at least so few of them do it's not worth the risk. Now bad relationship your foolish to not try and learn something and grow.


I don't think you are looking at this through Zanne's eyes, Wolf. She has no job, no income, a kid still at home. You have always worked. Of course you see what she does as a simple choice. And of course that is in many ways true.

I understand why you see things as you do. If I were you, I would see it that way, too.

Can you try to imagine something you feel starved for, like Zanne felt starved for love? Can you imagine getting it finally, or feeling like you have, and then just letting it go?

Maybe you can. I think my husband would. There are saints in this world. But Zanne and I are just not among them, I guess.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> Thank you, but to be honest I do have bitterness. It's taken a long to work through. I'm stuck in a small town in a foreign country while my Ex leads a good life with her friends and family here. That breeds major resentment.
> 
> A friend of mine noted: Int'l relationships where the woman is in the man's country typically work out better than vice versa. Don't know if that's true but I can see where it would be. Men are at a disadvantage in the woman's country, and should things not go well in her eyes, there's a more secure base for her to leave.


Are you in France right now?

Dh is in America with me. Better jobs here, more freedom.

I am with him because he meets my deepest emotional needs. I think that is the secret: meet her deepest emotional needs. Find out what they are, and meet them. And expect to put some work in to find out what they are. You have to earn her trust and study her to find them out.


----------



## bandit.45

When did this become Zannes thread?


----------



## Zanne

Wolf1974 said:


> Guess that's where we differ. What help are they asking for? If we are talking of Zanne I never saw her ask for help. If she has then she had received plenty of good advice about coming clean now before this blows up in her face. And it will. I think lots of the posters are trying to help by getting her to wake up about this fantasy world of the OM. Sentence after typed sentence have Been typed saying hey I have seen this go sideways before. Remember your vows. your husband deserves better than this. leave and save the relationship with your kids and your dignity. That's all helpful if she listens to many of us who lived this.
> 
> I don't see many WS asking for help. Just stating that it's ok to do what they are doing.


You expect a lot. A "come to Jesus" moment would be neat and tidy; a success of sorts.

It doesn't work that way, IMO. Thoughts and concepts from the outside trickle into my brain. This is ONE place in my life and very one dimensional. I take what is said here very seriously, but then it's competing with where I am at emotionally, mentally, etc., while dealing with the other influences in my life too.

I think it can be discouraging to try and help people here, whether BS or WS. We expect miracles. We want to skip to the ending to find out if it turns out the way we want. It's just the way society today is wired.


----------



## Duguesclin

staystrong said:


> Once she got sexually stimulated and comparing me to this other man, I'm dead in the water. You can't compete with someone you don't know is a factor.


Why defining everything in terms of sexuality. I agree it is very hurtful. It may be the first thing a man thinks about; however I do not think it is what a woman thinks first. If it were the case, you would not need all the courting.

Women like the attention.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> I don't think you are looking at this through Zanne's eyes, Wolf. She has no job, no income, a kid still at home. You have always worked. Of course you see what she does as a simple choice. And of course that is in many ways true.
> 
> I understand why you see things as you do. If I were you, I would see it that way, too.
> 
> Can you try to imagine something you feel starved for, like Zanne felt starved for love? Can you imagine getting it finally, or feeling like you have, and then just letting it go?
> 
> Maybe you can. I think my husband would. There are saints in this world. But Zanne and I are just not among them, I guess.


I can totally understand.

But she's simultaneously claiming that if the OM does not leave his wife, she'll be on her own. So is it for his love, or love in general?

She does not want her H. The deal is done.


----------



## Zanne

bandit.45 said:


> When did this become Zannes thread?


Yes, where are all of these WS's who are being *encouraged* to come post here? 

Most likely avoiding this forum all together.

And BTW, bandit, just because I have a thread, doesn't mean I can't participate in another. But don't worry, I got your message loud and clear.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> I can totally understand.
> 
> But she's simultaneously claiming that if the OM does not leave his wife, she'll be on her own. So is it for his love, or love in general?
> 
> She does not want her H. The deal is done.


Thank you for that humanity. She is not going to stay with a guy in stagnation. If she had a job, she would already be gone. But she may be in a rural area without much chance for work.

Women expect more now than they used to. She will find out if she can get it or not. She is just tired of going without, I think.


----------



## staystrong

Duguesclin said:


> Why defining everything in terms of sexuality. I agree it is very hurtful. It may be the first thing a man thinks about; however I do not think it is what a woman thinks first. If it were the case, you would not need all the courting.
> 
> Women like the attention.


Agreed.

And she was receiving a lot of attention and encouragement. 

A music teacher.

And she started performing live, adding to the rush and empowerment of herself. 

If she had chosen a female teacher, I would not be here today feeling robbed of my life. We had our own music, I loved to watch her perform, .. I feel just simply robbed. It's a deeply profound loss which goes beyond the sexual aspect. It's about losing the person you wish to see shine, and simply because she allowed herself to get too close to someone who was telling her how wonderful she was. I am sure he really turned on the encouragement.. he wasn't doing that for his ugly students, though. So it's about attraction, too.

Here's the thing.. in just a brief amount of time, she replaced me. I mean, it was very short all told. I supported her, but I can't support her like he did. She became obsessed and annoyances came along with that obsession. Not for him, of course, but for me. Home life versus dream life.


----------



## Maricha75

Duguesclin said:


> staystrong said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once she got sexually stimulated and comparing me to this other man, I'm dead in the water. You can't compete with someone you don't know is a factor.
> 
> 
> 
> Why defining everything in terms of sexuality. I agree it is very hurtful. It may be the first thing a man thinks about; however *I do not think it is what a woman thinks first.* If it were the case, you would not need all the courting.
> 
> Women like the attention.
Click to expand...

Then you would be dead wrong. THIS woman would feel the same as staystrong described. I can, and did, get over the words stated to OW. If he had ever met her in person and they had sex, it would destroy me.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## staystrong

I don't think people should live in stagnation.

I think Zanne's relationship ran its course, to use a phrase. She just handled it wrong and continues to do so. With one man since a teenager.. yeah, I think that's very uncommon these days. That's a huge course of time in which to change and grow, and not always together.


----------



## karole

jld said:


> Ask for alimony and a fifty/fifty split of assets. You put in twenty years, Zanne. Just look at it objectively, not emotionally. You are going to need that money.
> 
> I feel for you, Zanne. I just do. I simply cannot condemn another woman who is all too human, imo. Any intelligent woman is not going to accept to starve forever.
> 
> Of course you want transparency. Any person with goodness in their soul does.
> 
> Oh, Zanne, I am so sorry you are where you are. I think you are trying to act with integrity. I am sorry your husband cannot, or just does not have, more inside him.


"Trying to act with integrity?" You've got to be kidding JLD.


----------



## Faeleaf

staystrong said:


> Agreed.
> 
> And she was receiving a lot of attention and encouragement.
> 
> A music teacher.
> 
> And she started performing live, adding to the rush and empowerment of herself.
> 
> If she had chosen a female teacher, I would not be here today feeling robbed of my life. We had our own music, I loved to watch her perform, .. I feel just simply robbed. It's a deeply profound loss which goes beyond the sexual aspect. It's about losing the person you wish to see shine, and simply because she allowed herself to get too close to someone who was telling her how wonderful she was. I am sure he really turned on the encouragement.. he wasn't doing that for his ugly students, though. So it's about attraction, too.
> 
> Here's the thing.. in just a brief amount of time, she replaced me. I mean, it was very short all told. I supported her, but I can't support her like he did. She became obsessed and annoyances came along with that obsession. Not for him, of course, but for me. Home life versus dream life.


I'm so sorry. I can feel the horror of what happened to you, and I am deeply sorry.

I wish I could wave a magic wand and say, "From now on, whenever any spouse is unhappy and vulnerable to an attraction, he/she will communicate that immediately to the spouse, and both will be very motivated to work with each other to shore up the primary relationship, to improve everyone's happiness with it." I wish I could do that. It would save so much heartache.


----------



## bandit.45

Zanne said:


> Yes, where are all of these WS's who are being *encouraged* to come post here?
> 
> Most likely avoiding this forum all together.
> 
> And BTW, bandit, just because I have a thread, doesn't mean I can't participate in another. But don't worry, I got your message loud and clear.


I just wonder why Rookie bailed on his own thread. He's usually got more grit than that. I'm kinda disappointed.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> I don't think people should live in stagnation.
> 
> I think Zanne's relationship ran its course, to use a phrase. She just handled it wrong and continues to do so. With one man since a teenager.. yeah, I think that's very uncommon these days. That's a huge course of time in which to change and grow, and not always together.


And that was a big problem: they did not grow together. And Zanne is not going to sit around the rest of her life waiting for him to decide to grow.

She needs alimony and half the assets to get training for a career for the second half of her life.


----------



## jld

karole said:


> "Trying to act with integrity?" You've got to be kidding JLD.


From where she is, karole. She is trying to be honest with us. And her conscience is bothering her. And she is sharing that with us. Yes, I do think there is some integrity in that.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> I don't think you are looking at this through Zanne's eyes, Wolf. She has no job, no income, a kid still at home. You have always worked. Of course you see what she does as a simple choice. And of course that is in many ways true.
> 
> I understand why you see things as you do. If I were you, I would see it that way, too.
> 
> Can you try to imagine something you feel starved for, like Zanne felt starved for love? Can you imagine getting it finally, or feeling like you have, and then just letting it go?
> 
> Maybe you can. I think my husband would. There are saints in this world. But Zanne and I are just not among them, I guess.


Lets look through the husbands eyes.. do you think he'd want to support Zanne knowing he's supporting her and her lover?

Does he matter?


----------



## bandit.45

russell28 said:


> Lets look through the husbands eyes.. do you think he'd want to support Zanne knowing he's supporting her and her lover?
> 
> Does he matter?



No. He doesn't. Zanne told you, he's basically an unchanging Neanderthal. He disqualified himself from her caring.


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> I don't think you are looking at this through Zanne's eyes, Wolf. She has no job, no income, a kid still at home. You have always worked. Of course you see what she does as a simple choice. And of course that is in many ways true.
> 
> I understand why you see things as you do. If I were you, I would see it that way, too.
> 
> Can you try to imagine something you feel starved for, like Zanne felt starved for love? Can you imagine getting it finally, or feeling like you have, and then just letting it go?
> 
> Maybe you can. I think my husband would. There are saints in this world. But Zanne and I are just not among them, I guess.



I have felt starved for love and affection before. I didn't cheat. I made the choice to
Improve my situation and did. It was painful, and it was hard but it was the right thing to do and my GF monthly later
Appreciated the way I handled it as she also knew in the end we
Weren't right for one another.

And sorry not buying the trapped thing. She is entitled To the communal Property so she has an ability to get out. Besides I'm willing to bet
Dollars to donuts that if she admitted to the church that she is having an affair and is trapped they would also give assistance. The church's out here do anyway. Always other
Options. You are glossing over the fact that she has a huge advantage in staying.....because it's easier. But is that how we should live our lives? Hurt
And use others because it's easier? I don't think so
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> Lets look through the husbands eyes.. do you think he'd want to support Zanne knowing he's supporting her and her lover?
> 
> Does he matter?


I think he is shell shocked. Why would she want more? He is satisfied with his life. Why should she not be? I think this is what he is thinking.

He either does some introspection and tries to reach out to her and meet her needs, or he files for divorce, gives her half the assets and probably alimony, and moves on.

There is a price to pay for passivity, men, in this modern era.


----------



## jld

Wolf1974 said:


> I have felt starved for love and affection before. I didn't cheat. I made the choice to
> Improve my situation and did. It was painful, and it was hard but it was the right thing to do and my GF monthly later
> Appreciated the way I handled it as she also knew in the end we
> Weren't right for one another.
> 
> And sorry not buying the trapped thing. She is entitled To the communal Property so she has an ability to get out. Besides I'm willing to bet
> Dollars to donuts that if she admitted to the church that she is having an affair and is trapped they would also give assistance. The church's out here do anyway. Always other
> Options. You are glossing over the fact that she has a huge advantage in staying.....because it's easier. But is that how we should live our lives? Hurt
> And use others because it's easier? I don't think so
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think that is what she is struggling with.

Zanne, don't even think about leaving without half the assets and likely alimony. Girl, you need job training, probably at least a two year degree. Economic independence _is_ independence. Men have always known this.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> There is a price to pay for passivity, men, in this modern era.


Jesus. You're a bit of a zealot, JLD.

You're blaming men for their upbringing?

He was the breadwinner... that doesn't sound so passive. 

I could see her getting half, but alimony? .. funk that noise. She is leaving for a lover. Let OM support both her and HIS family.

Perhaps you are starting to see the scheme here. If she doesn't get alimony, maybe OM leaving his family will become even less attractive. 

This is plotting and manipulation. 

What about OM? Is he a 'leader of men' by leaving his wife and 3 kids. What do you think about that?


----------



## Wolf1974

Zanne said:


> You expect a lot. A "come to Jesus" moment would be neat and tidy; a success of sorts.
> 
> It doesn't work that way, IMO. Thoughts and concepts from the outside trickle into my brain. This is ONE place in my life and very one dimensional. I take what is said here very seriously, but then it's competing with where I am at emotionally, mentally, etc., while dealing with the other influences in my life too.
> 
> I think it can be discouraging to try and help people here, whether BS or WS. We expect miracles. We want to skip to the ending to find out if it turns out the way we want. It's just the way society today is wired.


That's fine if you don't think it works that way. Guess if I was going through something so many others went through I would listen though. I just don't by that you have any motivation to change or take accountability on this. Admitting its wrong to do but keep doing it isn't accountability

I wonder though. If you had a son and his wife was doing what you are doing to him how would you feel about that. If your daughter was in this situation would you encourage her to continue lying deceiving and using? Sometimes when we look outside our own situation we see how clearly others look at ours. Just a thought
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> I think that is what she is struggling with.
> 
> Zanne, don't even think about leaving without half the assets and likely alimony. Girl, you need job training, probably at least a two year degree. Economic independence _is_ independence. Men have always known this.


Yes, get some job training.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> Ask for alimony and a fifty/fifty split of assets. You put in twenty years, Zanne. Just look at it objectively, not emotionally. You are going to need that money.
> 
> I feel for you, Zanne. I just do. I simply cannot condemn another woman who is all too human, imo. Any intelligent woman is not going to accept to starve forever.
> 
> Of course you want transparency. Any person with goodness in their soul does.
> 
> Oh, Zanne, I am so sorry you are where you are. I think you are trying to act with integrity. I am sorry your husband cannot, or just does not have, more inside him.


I love reading your posts JLD, because, for whatever reason, I seem to either agree with you 100% or disagree with you 100%. LOL. There's not a lot of grey areas.

I wonder how you'd respond to a MAN, who was actively cheating on his wife, who had been involved in a number of other affairs along the way. Who hid things from his wife. Who wouldn't make any changes. His wife knew he wanted to leave but she didn't kick him out (for whatever reason, one of which MIGHT be that she's hoping he falls back in love with her).

He's just being indecisive and too chickensh!t to man up and do anything about it. He completely disregards his wife because he hasn't felt she "grew" in the relationship like him. That she doesn't "stimulate" him the way she used to, even though SHE'S still the same person and he's not.

I think you're giving too much of a pass here because 1. Zanne is eloquent and insightful and 2. She's a woman.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> Are you in France right now?
> 
> Dh is in America with me. Better jobs here, more freedom.
> 
> I am with him because he meets my deepest emotional needs. I think that is the secret: meet her deepest emotional needs. Find out what they are, and meet them. And expect to put some work in to find out what they are. You have to earn her trust and study her to find them out.


Why is he with you, do you study and meet his deepest emotional needs, or is that really not such a big deal because it's up to the man to do the brunt of the work.. it's not 50/50? You get a pass, he has to research your needs and tell you that you look pretty, but you just say 'thanks' and that's good. He should just be thankful to be with someone as wonderful to allow him to fulfill her needs.

Instead of him having to put work into finding out what those mysterious needs are, why not just tell him? Why the need for head games and mind reading? 

What if the secret deepest need is to keep secrets from you? They can communicate that to you, but then they wouldn't be meeting the need to keep secrets.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> Jesus. You're a bit of a zealot, JLD.
> 
> You're blaming men for their upbringing?
> 
> He was the breadwinner... that doesn't sound so passive.
> 
> I could see her getting half, but alimony? .. funk that noise. She is leaving for a lover. Let OM support both her and HIS family.
> 
> Perhaps you are starting to see the scheme here. If she doesn't get alimony, maybe OM leaving his family will become even less attractive.
> 
> This is plotting and manipulation.
> 
> What about OM? Is he a 'leader of men' by leaving his wife and 3 kids. What do you think about that?


No, being the breadwinner is very good. The passivity was more emotional.

If she is legally entitled to alimony, she should go for it. SAHMs make a contribution, too.

Not much respect here for OM. Weak guy. A strong man would have gone to Zanne's husband and told him to get his act together.


----------



## karole

jld said:


> I think he is shell shocked. Why would she want more? He is satisfied with his life. Why should she not be? I think this is what he is thinking.
> 
> He either does some introspection and tries to reach out to her and meet her needs, or he files for divorce, gives her half the assets and probably alimony, and moves on.
> 
> There is a price to pay for passivity, men, in this modern era.


How do you think the OM's wife will feel once she finds out about all the money the OM has spent on Zanne? How about his children? The OM is such a spineless snake.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> There is a price to pay for passivity, men, in this modern era.


Yup, and don't you think he's emotionally and mentally paying that price?

I'm not saying Zanne isn't due half...but wow, that statement really sounds like you blame Zanne's husband and have never heard his case.

You're the juror who only listens to the prosecution and doesn't listen to the defense. You do realize you've heard ONE side to a 3 sided story, right?


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> I think he is shell shocked. Why would she want more? *He is satisfied with his life. *Why should she not be? I think this is what he is thinking.
> 
> He either does some introspection and tries to reach out to her and meet her needs, or he files for divorce, gives her half the assets and probably alimony, and moves on.
> 
> There is a price to pay for passivity, men, in this modern era.


Oh now he has to file for divorce because she's unhappy and he's satisfied.. Let me guess, because he's the man and needs to take charge?

He's satisifed with what he THINKS is his life, he has no idea what his life really is. He thinks he has a faithful wife, not a cheating wife. He thinks he's supporting a wife, not another couple.

If she wants half the assets, she should file herself.. or even better, let him keep his stuff as payback for abusing him all this time, and let her boyfriends pay for her from now on. They get to drink the milk, let them pay for the cow.


----------



## russell28

BTW jld, things you say are things women use to justify cheating, so be warned that you are heading for infidelity if your husband doesn't decipher one of your needs. You already see it as one of those things that's acceptable in certain circumstances, that's the path it starts down. Next up is some other man putting in some work and finding your deepest emotional needs and hitting one of them, and poof.. you'll start to notice your husband is missing that one. You'll build up resentments, blame him for missing that need and this new wonderful guy for respecting you and caring.. blah blah... then you'll be back here talking about how you're remorseful, you made a mistake. You were broken. Be careful, you're traveling down a dangerous road.


----------



## jld

Dad&Hubby said:


> I love reading your posts JLD, because, for whatever reason, I seem to either agree with you 100% or disagree with you 100%. LOL. There's not a lot of grey areas.
> 
> I wonder how you'd respond to a MAN, who was actively cheating on his wife, who had been involved in a number of other affairs along the way. Who hid things from his wife. Who wouldn't make any changes. His wife knew he wanted to leave but she didn't kick him out (for whatever reason, one of which MIGHT be that she's hoping he falls back in love with her).She has low self esteem. Or it is worth it to her to stay to him, for his income or charisma or whatever. Sounds like my oldest sister.
> 
> He's just being indecisive and too chickensh!t to man up and do anything about it. He completely disregards his wife because he hasn't felt she "grew" in the relationship like him. That she doesn't "stimulate" him the way she used to, even though SHE'S still the same person and he's not.
> 
> I think you're giving too much of a pass here because 1. Zanne is eloquent and insightful and 2. She's a woman.


There is not much reasoning with my sister. She is crazy about her husband. Always blames the other woman. Poor guy. Just the victim of all those predators. 

I would ask him if this is the person he wants to be. I would tell him he has an awful lot of power over an awful lot of women, and ask him what he is doing with it. Would he want his mother treated that way? Just one of a number of women he has used?

Would be hard for me to stomach looking at that guy, much less talking to him. He is misusing his power.


----------



## vellocet

Zanne said:


> BTW, I have decided to bring everything into the light in my life and let the chips fall where they may. I encouraged the OM to do the same.


Great, let us know when you have told your husband that you are cheating, that you see him as just a paycheck, and that he has financed your getaways with the OM.

Let us know what he decides to do.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> No, being the breadwinner is very good. The passivity was more emotional.
> 
> If she is legally entitled to alimony, she should go for it. SAHMs make a contribution, too.
> 
> Not much respect here for OM. Weak guy. A strong man would have gone to Zanne's husband and told him to get his act together.


A strong man would stay away from Zanne and her husband, and if she told him about her problems with her husband, he'd say "you should talk to your husband about that" and change the subject.


----------



## Duguesclin

russell28 said:


> Why is he with you, do you study and meet his deepest emotional needs, or is that really not such a big deal because it's up to the man to do the brunt of the work.. it's not 50/50? You get a pass, he has to research your needs and tell you that you look pretty, but you just say 'thanks' and that's good. He should just be thankful to be with someone as wonderful to allow him to fulfill her needs.
> 
> Instead of him having to put work into finding out what those mysterious needs are, why not just tell him? Why the need for head games and mind reading?
> 
> What if the secret deepest need is to keep secrets from you? They can communicate that to you, but then they wouldn't be meeting the need to keep secrets.


I am with JLD because she fulfills my deep emotional needs as well. Like most men, I want to feel that I contribute to this society. We are working together to bring responsible contributing adults to this world.

I have learned that not addressing deep emotional needs does not work. I understand it can be very frustrating to guys to deal with women in general. They, often, do not seem logical. But, to be honest, I do not think feelings are rational. So why not adapting to them and try to listen.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> Why is he with you, do you study and meet his deepest emotional needs, or is that really not such a big deal because it's up to the man to do the brunt of the work.. it's not 50/50? You get a pass, he has to research your needs and tell you that you look pretty, but you just say 'thanks' and that's good. He should just be thankful to be with someone as wonderful to allow him to fulfill her needs.
> 
> Instead of him having to put work into finding out what those mysterious needs are, why not just tell him? Why the need for head games and mind reading?
> 
> What if the secret deepest need is to keep secrets from you? They can communicate that to you, but then they wouldn't be meeting the need to keep secrets.


He wanted me. He made that very clear when we were first together, and he still feels that way.

I am transparent with him. I tell him everything. And I try to please him. We are pretty old-fashioned in some ways. I would not feel right not pleasing him.


----------



## vellocet

Zanne said:


> What?? I'm not looking for support to cheat! I came to TAM almost two years ago looking for advice about my marriage. *I was actually dismayed to see how easy it was for people to recommend divorce*.


For someone like you, of course people are going to recommend it.




> I specifically mentioned in my first thread that I was a Christian because I didn't want anybody to give me an easy way out. I wanted to do the "right" thing.


So you are a Christian that doesn't want to divorce, but your chosen path of keeping him in the dark, up to now, and using him for money is the "right" thing to do?

See that's just it, you had NO INTEREST in doing the "right thing" all this time. Only NOW are you going to tell your H the truth and give him the power to decide for himself. And I suspect you are going to want him to make the decision to divorce. And if he doesn't, you are going to keep using him for money and seeing this OM, or someone else in the future.

If you are going to use "I am a Christian", then you need to either do one of the following:

1) divorce, because cheating isn't an acceptable solution for a "Christian"

2) decided to work on the marriage and try to see him as something other than a paycheck

Anything other than the 2 things above and you are not being, in any way shape or form, a "Christian" And yes, if the alternative is using a man for money and sleeping with other men, then divorce IS an acceptable solution for a "Christian".


----------



## vellocet

Regret214 said:


> Guys...come on! She just said that she's going to tell all and let the chips fall where they may.


Yes, "let the chips fall where they may"

What if that entails her husband wanting to go to counseling?
Is she going to do it? Or is she just wanting HIM to file for divorce so she can still claim to be a "Christian"?

She should come clean and file for divorce herself. Not cop out and try to get him to file so she can say she didn't divorce.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> There is not much reasoning with my sister. She is crazy about her husband. Always blames the other woman. Poor guy. Just the victim of all those predators.
> 
> I would ask him if this is the person he wants to be. I would tell him he has an awful lot of power over an awful lot of women, and ask him what he is doing with it. Would he want his mother treated that way? Just one of a number of women he has used?
> 
> Would be hard for me to stomach looking at that guy, much less talking to him. He is misusing his power.


So your sister is Zanne's husband and Zanne is your sister's husband....you don't see the irony here? Or the double standard?


----------



## NextTimeAround

Duguesclin said:


> I am with JLD because she fulfills my *deep emotional needs* as well. Like most men, I want to feel that I contribute to this society. We are working together to bring responsible contributing adults to this world.
> 
> I have learned that not addressing *deep emotional needs* does not work. I understand it can be very frustrating to guys to deal with women in general. They, often, do not seem logical. But, to be honest, I do not think feelings are rational. So why not adapting to them and try to listen.


What are these "deep emotional needs" that you speak of?

And FTR, my exH more often than not made decisions based on gut feeling and opportunism than on logic and rationalism.

for example, he remained friends with his ex(the one before) who moved on to another man when he dithered over marriage with her and with another woman friend who was caught _in delicto flagrante_ at a time when she was exclusive with his brother.

Of course, these women were well connected....... so you wouldn't to upset that on the basis of principles.


----------



## staystrong

> I think that is the secret: meet her deepest emotional needs. Find out what they are, and meet them. And expect to put some work in to find out what they are. You have to earn her trust and study her to find them out.


I would have loved to have met her deepest emotional needs.

That's part of what I thought relationships were all about.

Now... I guess my failure was not to be active enough in discovering those needs. I do see your point there, and I knew there were ways I held back because I didn't want to scare her off by perhaps my own needs, which could be more masculine/dominant. Perhaps she did not investigate my needs either. 

We did have an intense start but perhaps met too much in the middle. I know her passion was music and we created music together.. but she was more active in that area and wanted to record. I wanted to as well.. there was also the 2 kids to take care of at a young age. 

*My story is like MANY others.* Married woman mid-30's, two kids, exposure to new man in close quarters. I don't think this is about me being passive, it's about routine versus newness. 

So you see, it was like a perfect storm... she left for OM at just the precise time that the kids were starting to turn the corner on dependency. Basically.. she couldn't handle it all: work, marriage, kids and needed to escape. But in the context of her worldview she was embracing who she truly was. Somehow she needed a man to help her discover that. I don't think she did. I believed in her MUCH more than douchenozzle did because I had known her for 8 years. You see the difference? He knew a side she was presenting. 

I think it's important for people to understand emotional needs and spend time together. But also, there's a lot of just regular old life that can be joyous just by doing things in harmony and not causing drama and static. She chose the path of destruction for her own will to power. That's an escape from responsibility. Destroying your own family is NOT feminine, and devalues the needs of one's own children for the wants of the parent. This is why I don't buy the "self-actualization" crowd. I think people abuse the term.. self-actualization is corrupted if you are choosing to cast aside love and being loved for limerence and self-gratification. That's the path my XW chose. She says she felt loved and loved me... but she fell "in love" with another. Look, you can't argue with people who say they didn't realize what was missing until they had their affair. They have already distorted reality a million times over. They are justifying wanting 'more' or 'better' and that's all it is. She told me she wished she could have both.. *I almost thought I saw cake fly out of her mouth. *


----------



## staystrong

NextTimeAround said:


> What are these "deep emotional needs" that you speak of?
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Yes, please elaborate.


----------



## russell28

Duguesclin said:


> I am with JLD because she fulfills my deep emotional needs as well. Like most men, I want to feel that I contribute to this society. We are working together to bring responsible contributing adults to this world.
> 
> I have learned that not addressing deep emotional needs does not work. I understand it can be very frustrating to guys to deal with women in general. They, often, do not seem logical. But, to be honest, I do not think feelings are rational. So why not adapting to them and try to listen.


You don't sound like a strong enough person for her.. it sounds like she has you jumping through hoops to please her or she'll stray.. it's threatened right here and you read it. 

Keep working hard to decipher those mysterious deepest needs... Stay strong, don't falter.. if you do, your wife might find another that will fill her deepest darkest needs. She'll be fine with not telling you, as long as there are good reasons. She'd take the same advice she's giving Zanne I'm sure.

I'd be concerned if I were you. If she hasn't cheated already, she might as soon as her needs aren't being met 100% (or she just gets bored and uses that as an excuse).

It's all up to you 100% to keep her faithful.. best of luck.


----------



## vellocet

Zanne said:


> Yes, where are all of these WS's who are being *encouraged* to come post here?


I encourage any WS that doesn't want to use and abuse their spouse to come here. And there are some decent WSs here that even the most adamant against cheating can and do respect.

The ones that want to continually abuse their spouse are the ones that are not going to be met with a bouquet of flowers.


----------



## vellocet

staystrong said:


> Jesus. You're a bit of a zealot, JLD.
> 
> You're blaming men for their upbringing?


Blaming men? JLD?


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> Not much respect here for OM. Weak guy. A strong man would have gone to Zanne's husband and told him to get his act together.


Zanne and her OM are the same. If he is weak, then so is she.

You don't get to give her a pass because she is a woman.


----------



## staystrong

russell28 said:


> You don't sound like a strong enough person for her.. it sounds like she has you jumping through hoops to please her or she'll stray.. it's threatened right here and you read it.
> 
> Keep working hard to decipher those mysterious deepest needs... Stay strong, don't falter.. if you do, your wife might find another that will fill her deepest darkest needs. She'll be fine with not telling you, as long as there are good reasons. She'd take the same advice she's giving Zanne I'm sure.
> 
> I'd be concerned if I were you. If she hasn't cheated already, she might as soon as her needs aren't being met 100% (or she just gets bored and uses that as an excuse).
> 
> It's all up to you 100% to keep her faithful.. best of luck.



Let's be fair, Russell. You don't know their couple. 

Perhaps she was the driving force behind the change, but they both appear to be very happy with the outcome.


----------



## staystrong

> Not much respect here for OM. Weak guy. A strong man would have gone to Zanne's husband and told him to get his act together.


A strong man would have initially said "I understand you are having a lot of problems in your marriage. But I'm not a pastor or a counselor and I don't know your situation. I think it's best you sort those out with your husband. Talk to your family, too. You should not involve another man in your marriage. It will only lead to more problems than you currently have. Think about what you stand to lose in the long run before what you gain in the short run. I have to go, my wife is expecting me."


----------



## russell28

staystrong said:


> Let's be fair, Russell. You don't know their couple.
> 
> Perhaps she was the driving force behind the change, but they both appear to be very happy with the outcome.


I know enough from what I read.

Here's a quote from her from another thread:

"Though, I am not without power in my relationship. *I simply give most of it to dh*."

He has the power, because SHE gives it to him.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> I know enough from what I read.
> 
> Here's a quote from her from another thread:
> 
> "Though, I am not without power in my relationship. *I simply give most of it to dh*."
> 
> He has the power, because SHE gives it to him.



I accepted to marry him, didn't I? I accepted his conditions in exchange for his protection.


----------



## russell28

staystrong said:


> A strong man would have initially said "I understand you are having a lot of problems in your marriage. But I'm not a pastor or a counselor and I don't know your situation. I think it's best you sort those out with your husband. Talk to your family, too. You should not involve another man in your marriage. It will only lead to more problems than you currently have. Think about what you stand to lose in the long run before what you gain in the short run. I have to go, my wife is expecting me."


Some men do this, they see the red flag and run like hell.. others see it as opportunity to get down someone's pants. A woman complaining about her marriage is an open invitation to a man. What they do with that invitation will determine how much respect they should deserve. Her OM will change his tune once she dumps her husband and she's no longer 'safe'. Once she wants him to commit, his story will change and she'll be shocked that this 'respectable' cheater, told her lies.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> I accepted to marry him, didn't I? I accepted his conditions in exchange for his protection.


Sounds romantic. "I jld do accept your conditions in exchange for protection..."


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> Zanne and her OM are the same. If he is weak, then so is she.
> 
> You don't get to give her a pass because she is a woman.


I have said many times that cheaters are weak people, vell.


----------



## staystrong

russell28 said:


> Some men do this, they see the red flag and run like hell.. others see it as opportunity to get down someone's pants. A woman complaining about her marriage is an open invitation to a man. What they do with that invitation will determine how much respect they should deserve. Her OM will change his tune once she dumps her husband and she's no longer 'safe'. Once she wants him to commit, his story will change and she'll be shocked that this 'respectable' cheater, told her lies.


That's when you see the WW go nuts. 

They can't believe it. The shock of it all. How dare he? I would have paid good money to see that. 

I think some WW are good at emotionally blackmailing an OM to accepting her.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> Sounds romantic. "I jld do accept your conditions in exchange for protection..."


I don't know why you think it is funny. You don't think women have been making this trade since . . . forever?


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> Let's be fair, Russell. You don't know their couple.
> 
> Perhaps she was the driving force behind *the change, *but they both appear to be very happy with the outcome.


What change?


----------



## xakulax

And now she banned....did I miss something :scratchhead:


----------



## Hope1964

jld said:


> I don't know why you think it is funny. You don't think women have been making this trade since . . . forever?


Maybe YOU did, but please stop speaking for the rest of us, or even the majority of us.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> A strong man would have initially said "I understand you are having a lot of problems in your marriage. But I'm not a pastor or a counselor and I don't know your situation. I think it's best you sort those out with your husband. Talk to your family, too. You should not involve another man in your marriage. It will only lead to more problems than you currently have. Think about what you stand to lose in the long run before what you gain in the short run. I have to go, my wife is expecting me."


A strong man would have taken her right to wherever her husband was, and talked to both of them.

A strong man is secure in himself, and his wife is secure in _him._


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> I have said many times that cheaters are weak people, vell.


You do cleverly give out disclaimers. But your disclaimers don't shield you from your obvious gender bias and things you have already said on this forum.

But here you have the opportunity to call her weak, but you won't. Gee, wonder why its only the man in her situation that you decided to single out. Hmmmm


----------



## jld

Hope1964 said:


> Maybe YOU did, but please stop speaking for the rest of us, or even the majority of us.


That is true. Some women have been making this trade.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> You do cleverly give out disclaimers. But your disclaimers don't shield you from your obvious gender bias and things you have already said on this forum.
> 
> But here you have the opportunity to call her weak, but you won't. Gee, wonder why its only the man in her situation that you decided to single out. Hmmmm


Of course she is weak. Is that not obvious?


----------



## vellocet

xakulax said:


> And now she banned....did I miss something :scratchhead:


Who is?


----------



## Hope1964

vellocet said:


> Who is?


zanne


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> Of course she is weak. Is that not obvious?


Yes, it is, and you'd only ever say it if someone didn't call you out on your bias.


----------



## vellocet

Hope1964 said:


> zanne


Oh wow. Well I am going on record that it was NOT me who did any reporting.

I'll have to see if any posts are still up that might have necessitated a ban for my own curiosity. 

I don't like what she says, but I haven't seen anything yet that I'd consider breaking the rules. I guess we'll see.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> Yes, it is, and you'd only ever say it if someone didn't call you out on your bias.


Vell, I have said many times that cheaters are weak.


----------



## xakulax

vellocet said:


> Who is?


She whose name rhymes with pain


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> Vell, I have said many times that cheaters are weak.


Yet when it comes to a specific situation, you call out Zanne's OM only. 

Sorry, I don't believe anyone is fooled by your disclaimers and backpedalling

If I say all cheaters are weak, for example, but only ever call out cheating women and refrain from calling out cheating men, what would I be called?


----------



## Duguesclin

russell28 said:


> I know enough from what I read.
> 
> Here's a quote from her from another thread:
> 
> "Though, I am not without power in my relationship. *I simply give most of it to dh*."
> 
> He has the power, because SHE gives it to him.


Do you mean I should take the power even if she is not giving it? It does not work that way.

We all give power to someone. This is how humans are.

JLD has chosen to give her power to me and I am grateful for that.

Do I work to keep her trust? Of course! Does she work to keep my trust? Of course!

Now, to my deepest emotional needs. My deepest need is to be loved. It is to be meaningful to someone's life. It is to be needed. It is to be leaving something meaningful to this world.

JLD wants to be with me. She wants to interact with me. She seeks me out. She wants to be submissive to me. She wants to follow my leadership.

I was brought up to believe that relationships should be 50/50. I quickly realized it doesn't work that way. When you think of it, in modern society, a woman does not need a guy anymore. Why should a woman go on a 50/50 when she can do it on her own? And not go through the hassle of dealing with someone who is needy.

I think to be happy, a man needs to be needed. He needs to provide leadership. And jld allows me to do that. It comes with responsibilities, but I guess that is the price to pay.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> Yet when it comes to a specific situation, you call out Zanne's OM only.
> 
> Sorry, I don't believe anyone is fooled by your disclaimers and backpedalling
> 
> If I say all cheaters are weak, for example, but only ever call out cheating women and refrain from calling out cheating men, what would I be called?


Truthful? Even if you do not specifically mention cheating men, that is how I would interpret it.

And as an aside, truth is often not politically correct.


----------



## soulpotato

jld said:


> I have said many times that cheaters are weak people, vell.


I disagree with that judgment (and not because I cheated - there are plenty of FWSs here that I consider strong people), and I think such blanket statements are rarely accurate. A cheater _can_ be a strong person in lots of ways. We, however, have weaknesses/flaws that led to making the wrong choices and cheating instead of something else. I think the root of such weaknesses/flaws can and has been endlessly debated on TAM (sort of - mostly declared, actually).

I think it's best to try to avoid making personal judgments whenever possible. I don't think it gets us anywhere to think we're better than anyone else or that we're qualified to judge people (much less people we don't even know).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> And as an aside, truth is often not politically correct.


*Truth?*


----------



## russell28

Duguesclin said:


> Do you mean I should take the power even if she is not giving it? It does not work that way.
> 
> We all give power to someone. This is how humans are.
> 
> JLD has chosen to give her power to me and I am grateful for that.
> 
> Do I work to keep her trust? Of course! Does she work to keep my trust? Of course!
> 
> Now, to my deepest emotional needs. My deepest need is to be loved. It is to be meaningful to someone's life. It is to be needed. It is to be leaving something meaningful to this world.
> 
> JLD wants to be with me. She wants to interact with me. She seeks me out. She wants to be submissive to me. She wants to follow my leadership.
> 
> I was brought up to believe that relationships should be 50/50. I quickly realized it doesn't work that way. When you think of it, in modern society, a woman does not need a guy anymore. Why should a woman go on a 50/50 when she can do it on her own? And not go through the hassle of dealing with someone who is needy.
> 
> I think to be happy, a man needs to be needed. *He needs to provide leadership. And jld allows me to do that.* It comes with responsibilities, but I guess that is the price to pay.


She allows you to provide leadership? So you're like an assistant manager and she's the manager? Are you hearing yourself? jld seems to be alpha, and you seem to be beta to use the terms used here often. 

All 50/50 means is that both of you work on the relationship, one doesn't put 10 into the relationship and 40 into flirting. It means that if my wife looks good and I tell her, she should tell me when I look good. If I say I love you, she should say it too. If I wear a ring, she should wear a ring. It isn't about power or control. So yes, relationships are 50/50. You sign up for half of a partnership of two. You both take the same vows. At no point does it say you can start to put in 5% and allow your spouse to put in 95% because you're more important. Both sexes want to be needed to be happy, not just the man. 

Of course a woman needs a guy, unless they are lesbian, it's called nature. Where do you read this stuff, or does your wife read it to you?



Edit: just realized some are going to take that last line wrong. I don't mean you can't read, and she has to read to you. I mean is she filling your head with this 'relationships aren't 50/50' stuff? and stuff about women not needing men, men only need women.


----------



## jld

soulpotato said:


> I disagree with that judgment (and not because I cheated - there are plenty of FWSs here that I consider strong people), and I think such blanket statements are rarely accurate. A cheater _can_ be a strong person in lots of ways. We, however, have weaknesses/flaws that led to making the wrong choices and cheating instead of something else. I think the root of such weaknesses/flaws can and has been endlessly debated on TAM (sort of - mostly declared, actually).
> 
> I think it's best to try to avoid making personal judgments whenever possible. I don't think it gets us anywhere to think we're better than anyone else or that we're qualified to judge people (much less people we don't even know).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very good comment. I should have said cheating is a weakness. We all have different weaknesses.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

russell28 said:


> She allows you to provide leadership? So you're like an assistant manager and she's the manager? Are you hearing yourself? jld seems to be alpha, and you seem to be beta to use the terms used here often.


Hmm, I have to disagree with you on this assessment.

A leader cannot lead without followers. A follower chooses, either consciously or tacitly, to follow said leader. The follower can also choose NOT to follow said leader.

The role of follower/leader is still an agreed upon situation. The follower still "allows" the leader to lead. 

It's much like in a Dom/Sub sexual relationship, the sub has just as much power because they give themselves up willingly and also set the boundaries.


----------



## Marduk

Dad&Hubby said:


> Hmm, I have to disagree with you on this assessment.
> 
> A leader cannot lead without followers. A follower chooses, either consciously or tacitly, to follow said leader. The follower can also choose NOT to follow said leader.
> 
> The role of follower/leader is still an agreed upon situation. The follower still "allows" the leader to lead.
> 
> It's much like in a Dom/Sub sexual relationship, the sub has just as much power because they give themselves up willingly and also set the boundaries.


There are times where I lead, and my wife follows. This is good because I choose to play that role and so does she.

However, after living the "red pill" dream for a couple of years, it became really tiresome and vapid and manipulative to lead everything and fight for dominance on every point.

So there are now times where my wife leads, and I follow. This is good because I choose to play that role and so does she.

We've found tremendous balance in our relationship when we choose to craft which situations I lead, and which ones she leads.

Where we seem to go off the rails are situations where we either both want to lead, both want to follow, or want each other to read each other's minds.


----------



## russell28

Dad&Hubby said:


> Hmm, I have to disagree with you on this assessment.
> 
> A leader cannot lead without followers. A follower chooses, either consciously or tacitly, to follow said leader. The follower can also choose NOT to follow said leader.
> 
> The role of follower/leader is still an agreed upon situation. The follower still "allows" the leader to lead.
> 
> It's much like in a Dom/Sub sexual relationship, the sub has just as much power because *they give themselves up willingly and also set the boundaries.*


They give themselves up willingly, and set boundaries, but they are tied to the bed and the dom has the whip.. all the sub has is a safe word. So are you saying this relationship has a safe word? When the one in the dom position starts to go too far, and the sub needs to enforce the boundaries? 

Are we still talking about marriage and relationships? Or the military?


----------



## NextTimeAround

russell28 said:


> She allows you to provide leadership? So you're like an assistant manager and she's the manager? Are you hearing yourself? jld seems to be alpha, and you seem to be beta to use the terms used here often.



This reminds me of a male co-worker who used to joke, or at least, I think he was joking "I'm the boss. I know this because my wife told me so."

Are a lot of men like that.


----------



## vellocet

NextTimeAround said:


> This reminds me of a male co-worker who used to joke, or at least, I think he was joking "I'm the boss. I know this because my wife told me so."
> 
> Are a lot of men like that.


I don't think so. I think many men will tell you that their wives have made it clear they are NOT the boss.

And those that say they are the boss might as well sing The Man Song.

The MAN Song! with Lyrics - YouTube


----------



## 3putt

vellocet said:


> I don't think so. I think many men will tell you that their wives have made it clear they are NOT the boss.
> 
> And those that say they are the boss might as well sing The Man Song.
> 
> The MAN Song! with Lyrics - YouTube


LOL...I had forgotten about that song.


----------



## soulpotato

russell28 said:


> I think one problem is that former waywards have a history of telling lies and BS have a history of being lied to, and when the two meet, the BS here have trouble believing in the sincerity of some of the former WS. The experts say it takes years to redevelop trust for your spouse after betrayal, and that's if they do everything the right way. No trickle truth, no gas lighting, true remorse etc.. So when a BS here sees a WS say or do anything they perceive as being one of those types of things, it can trigger them. Most aren't past the two year mark yet, many are new to this whole infidelity thing. Basically, if we can't trust our own WS yet, how are we supposed to trust random WS typing words on the Internet?


I know. A lot of people on TAM are hurting and constantly being triggered. Even us former waywards, believe it or not.

Well, you guys don't have any personal investment in _other_ (random) WSs and whether or not they are "truly" remorseful, doing things "right", etc, so giving more of a benefit of the doubt where it affects you less (and may benefit others more) would be okay, wouldn't it? If a former wayward comes on saying they are remorseful, if that can be accepted as a working reality/truth (not saying those more difficult conversations can't still happen), it might better help them and their BS, no? But if said remorseful FWS is often challenged or treated aggressively, they may just shut down or even withdraw from the forum (where they could be helped, and therefore their BS could be helped).

I can imagine it's very hard, especially when the pain and betrayal are fresh. But I wish we could have those kinds of dialogues.



russell28 said:


> Here's an example of something that set me off.
> 
> One very popular former WS here attacked a BS that writes a blog, accusing her husband of being a divorce attorney and her of trying to earn a living through him off of betrayed spouses. She gave out a bunch of false information, then when called on it gave a half hearted apology. Should we coddle her, and allow her to tell lies and lash out against the mean BS that doesn't talk nice about cheaters? or are we supposed to point out to her that she seems angry, perhaps get concerned for her BS that she is angry with a betrayed spouse that writes a blog that paints cheaters in a bad light. Why does she feel the need to protect the (mostly serial) cheaters on that site? I wondered. I feel the need to have the back of the BS, not the WS in that situation. Even if the BS claims to be fine, I might still be concerned for them and want to point something out to the WS about how they should watch something, or be aware of something. Not to hurt them, but to help them. Sometimes things are hard to hear, and that's not because we want to hurt, or select who we help. Help isn't always fun and great news.. sometimes the truth isn't fun to hear.


I see why you found that triggering. That is a very specific situation, though, and I don't think anyone being hateful or inflammatory should be given a pass for it (WS OR BS). And that goes for talking trash in general, too. 

I'm not asking for coddling, just civility and respect. It has been said here before, but most people are a lot more likely to listen to someone who is approaching in a respectful fashion rather than telling them what horrible human beings they are. I really want to learn and get help here, but that is hard to do when I feel threatened or attacked by someone (especially someone I don't even know!). I wall right up when aggression is directed towards me. A lot of people do.



russell28 said:


> So I guess we question 'remorseful' constantly. We don't just figure that anyone that claims to have remorse, actually has it.


I understand the impulse. It's just that being challenged constantly across all the threads gets to be alienating and I would think it would defeat the purpose. After all, is a former wayward going to feel more remorseful if they are constantly being questioned or even challenged as to whether they are truly remorseful? I would think they might feel frustrated and even angry. It is hard to hear the messages that others might want to impart to us when they seem hostile.



russell28 said:


> We watch closely for actions, because words are cheap, and on a forum, there are only words. So we disect the words and try to read between the lines for any signs that a WS is full of it.


But that's just it. No one on an internet forum can see actions, or get the whole story. As you say, there's only what's relayed through text. Do you see what I mean about this sort of pattern being counterproductive? That habitually challenging or accusing former waywards of being insincere, lying, or not being truly remorseful is just not going to go anywhere good in a lot of cases? Because doing so is not going to make the UNremorseful change (or matter to them at all, most likely), but it is surely going to affect those who have come here with the will to change and remorse in their hearts. No one likes to be treated like that, especially when they are actually sincere and hurting themselves. (And yes, I'm fully aware that the pain of a WS is different from that of a BS, but I don't believe that makes it meaningless or insignificant.) 

There is an awful lot of proving that is demanded here, but really the only person a FWS should have to prove themself to is the person they betrayed. And if former waywards come here despite the harsh environment (especially if they try to stick around), I think that means something. I think more would stay if the environment were less hostile.

Thank you, Russell.


----------



## soulpotato

NextTimeAround said:


> I don't think it is a small group.


It seems to be a smaller/core group of hostile people within a larger majority - which can also be hostile, but not in the same way.



NextTimeAround said:


> You will find on every message board in cyberspace that there is a certain majority ethos. If you don' agree with that ethos then you need to find another message board that supports you AND in the way that you want to be supported.


I'm not going to leave just because you don't like that I disagree with certain things here. I'm sorry if I'm disrupting some unified mentality that you are part of... You have no idea who I am or how I even want to be supported. Maybe if you'd bothered to find out, we could have had a real and meaningful conversation.



NextTimeAround said:


> ivillage had at one time a message board for mistresses. Maybe it still does. And I think loveshack.org has a section for those who are having affairs.


And you are implying that I want to be supported in cheating/having an affair? I don't. And I'm not cheating, actually. I am a _former_ wayward, if that means anything to you. Not that I care if it does, however, since you haven't even bothered yourself with anything about me. I've spent a long time on TAM as well as lots of time, energy, and tears trying to R and heal myself so that I could be a better partner and also provide the right kind of support to my partner.



NextTimeAround said:


> IRL, for example, you would not join the Ku Klux Klan if you believed in rights for people of color. Ergo, you should not go to an established online community and expect it to change its beliefs just for you.


You really have no idea... This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The sole purpose of this post of yours was to be antagonistic. Putting you on ignore now.


----------



## soulpotato

Zanne said:


> It is frustrating to be told what you're thinking. Wasted words because nobody listens. I have my own triggers and that's one of them. My husband says a lot of "YOU think this." or "YOU think that." Really? You're inside my head now??


I feel that way on TAM pretty often, actually. 

I was also told by my partner that she knew what I was thinking, feeling, etc. I would be like, "I feel ____." And she would say, "No, I know how you REALLY feel." And I would reply, "....no really, I feel ____, and I don't appreciate you saying you know my feelings better than I do, because I am the one in here feeling my feelings." Continue loop. Real communication killer, that.

It's like, DAMMIT, I'M TRYING TO COMMUNICATE HERE. LISTEN. :rofl:


----------



## soulpotato

Wolf1974 said:


> Guess that's where we differ. What help are they asking for? If we are talking of Zanne I never saw her ask for help. If she has then she had received plenty of good advice about coming clean now before this blows up in her face. And it will. I think lots of the posters are trying to help by getting her to wake up about this fantasy world of the OM. Sentence after typed sentence have Been typed saying hey I have seen this go sideways before. Remember your vows. your husband deserves better than this. leave and save the relationship with your kids and your dignity. That's all helpful if she listens to many of us who lived this.
> 
> I don't see many WS asking for help. Just stating that it's ok to do what they are doing.


I was actually talking more about former waywards. I do think a lot of us are here because we want help. That's why I'm here. It's certainly not for the warm atmosphere, lol! And I have a lot of things I'm dealing with right now and do not need extra triggers, but I do come back to TAM from time to time because I feel it's part of something important. Initially I came to TAM for help with fixing myself and trying to understand why and how I betrayed my partner, and what I could do about it. I wanted to know what I could do to reconcile. I still think this place can help me. And I do not presume to know the ways in which it might help me now or in the future. But I am hopeful. Maybe someone's insight will trigger something useful, maybe I will see something differently, maybe a new level will open up to me through interacting with people here. Maybe I will figure out something else I've been doing wrong. Maybe I will see something right that I could do. And I can always learn more. It could be anything.

I don't know that I've seen a lot of former waywards here (or any that I remember?) say that they thought what they had done was okay. I surely don't feel that what I did was okay, but if someone is going to get in my face and be offensive or aggressive towards me, I am not going to be vulnerable and open to them. I am going to put my fists up. 

I was originally going to mention Zanne and say that she wants help, too, but then I felt I'd be speaking for someone else too much and I didn't want to do that. Maybe she more wants to talk things out here? I'm not sure. I don't know what she wants, and I don't want to assume.


----------



## sidney2718

soulpotato said:


> It seems to me that this forum (actually, most of TAM) isn't really for even the remorseful former waywards (well, only a few get the gold star). And even then, they're on tolerance. Then one gets to have people assuming what one thinks and feels without even being ASKED. Which is more aggravation than I need in my life, lol. TAM would be far more helpful if people wanted to discuss rather than bash or attack. I would love to have non-judgmental, non-confrontational conversations with people here.
> 
> Why does a small group of people get to decide who is worthy of help and who is not?


Mostly because the mods allow it. It seems to me that it is against the spirit if not the rules of TAM.


----------



## soulpotato

Wolf1974 said:


> I have felt starved for love and affection before. I didn't cheat. I made the choice to
> Improve my situation and did.


Maybe for some of us that failure comes down to needing external validation, having poor boundaries, and being broken in certain ways. I am better on boundaries, still trying to figure out how to install that internal validation system properly. A good chunk of my time revolves around doing work for therapy and trying to fix my brokenness.


----------



## soulpotato

sidney2718 said:


> Mostly because the mods allow it. It seems to me that it is against the spirit if not the rules of TAM.


It would be a full-time job for multiple people, no doubt!


----------



## sidney2718

staystrong said:


> What do you mean by adopting a "victim mentality"? I think you are saying that the BS becomes the persecutor, once moved out of the victim chair.
> 
> People who get cheated on ARE victims. Waywards tend to blame the victims.
> 
> *People who get cheated on are victims. That's true. The statement that "Waywards tend to blame the victims (i.e. the BS's) isn't true. It varies greatly from case to case.*
> 
> Now, that's not to say that WS's didn't suffer somehow in the marriage. But we typically find is that way wards have a laundry list of issues they never brought up directly or which are fairly lame excuses which should not be counted at all.
> 
> *Actually, we find no such thing at all. Waywards bring up their issues all the time. Frequently the not-yet-betrayed spouse ignores them or doesn't understand them. We see the BS's admit this with some regularity.
> 
> So we have two points so far that I consider false. 1) waywards blaming the victim and 2) waywards don't even try to communicate*.
> 
> I think the point is there is no justification for an affair.
> 
> *Nobody has argued otherwise.*
> 
> If someone wants to speak about pre-affair issues in the context of growth and healing, the BS should tune in. Obviously. But if the WS uses those issues as the causation of why they cheated, then you see the problem. It's fair to say a WS may not have felt they could approach their spouse, but it's not fair to say they needed a member of the opposite sex to listen, to share feelings, to have sex. The investigation should be on why the WS could not simply utter some words, write it down, say it in a fight even. This is usually due to conflict avoidance or in some cases, really "trying" and getting nowhere.
> 
> *Do you really find threads here on TAM where this really happens? Of course, there are a few. Zanne's is one. But most are not like that. Men and women often have difficulty in communicating and that's a serious problem.*
> 
> They made a poor choice to cheat instead of divorce, but if a BS was truly neglectful, abusive, etc then I would give them more leeway. Saying the BS was "controlling" does not cut it. Specific examples, please.
> 
> I know your backstory, jld, and I don't count that as typical AT ALL of the stories we see on this board. Neither is Zanne's.


*So what we have here is a fairly complete exposition of your point of view. You are certainly entitled to it. But it depends on a couple of assumptions that are simply not generally true.

I also want to say that this thread was set up so that we could here from WS's. One can speculate about their reasons for cheating, but it would be nice to hear from them.

You are blocking yourself from hearing them because, as you state, many of them simply blame their spouse.*


----------



## sidney2718

russell28 said:


> I know enough from what I read.
> 
> Here's a quote from her from another thread:
> 
> "Though, I am not without power in my relationship. *I simply give most of it to dh*."
> 
> He has the power, because SHE gives it to him.


I strongly suspect that you really don't understand their dynamic.


----------



## sidney2718

jld said:


> I don't know why you think it is funny. You don't think women have been making this trade since . . . forever?


This thread has about run its course. All we have left are a couple of very strong women and a group of seriously damaged men. There's nothing more to be learned here except that this group of men is not particularly interested in hearing the WS's side of the story.


----------



## sidney2718

xakulax said:


> And now she banned....did I miss something :scratchhead:


Yes.


----------



## sidney2718

soulpotato said:


> I was actually talking more about former waywards. I do think a lot of us are here because we want help. That's why I'm here. It's certainly not for the warm atmosphere, lol! And I have a lot of things I'm dealing with right now and do not need extra triggers, but I do come back to TAM from time to time because I feel it's part of something important. Initially I came to TAM for help with fixing myself and trying to understand why and how I betrayed my partner, and what I could do about it. I wanted to know what I could do to reconcile. I still think this place can help me. And I do not presume to know the ways in which it might help me now or in the future. But I am hopeful. Maybe someone's insight will trigger something useful, maybe I will see something differently, maybe a new level will open up to me through interacting with people here. Maybe I will figure out something else I've been doing wrong. Maybe I will see something right that I could do. And I can always learn more. It could be anything.
> 
> I don't know that I've seen a lot of former waywards here (or any that I remember?) say that they thought what they had done was okay. I surely don't feel that what I did was okay, but if someone is going to get in my face and be offensive or aggressive towards me, I am not going to be vulnerable and open to them. I am going to put my fists up.
> 
> I was originally going to mention Zanne and say that she wants help, too, but then I felt I'd be speaking for someone else too much and I didn't want to do that. Maybe she more wants to talk things out here? I'm not sure. I don't know what she wants, and I don't want to assume.


You know that you are not alone. Many of us on TAM also want to be able to talk to WS's, former and current. We get only one side of the story and that almost always from the betrayed HUSBAND. The few BW's that come by usually don't post in CWI for reasons you can readily see.

Zanne was banned for pushing a point of view that is detrimental to the overall aims of TAM. Those aims are to attempt to preserve marriages where possible and in cases where it is not, to allow for a decent divorce.


----------



## sidney2718

soulpotato said:


> Maybe for some of us that failure comes down to needing external validation, having poor boundaries, and being broken in certain ways. I am better on boundaries, still trying to figure out how to install that internal validation system properly. A good chunk of my time revolves around doing work for therapy and trying to fix my brokenness.


We are social animals. That means that we have evolved to get along in social groups. Our internal validation systems depend in part (more in some, less in others) on societal validation. 

And yet what we honestly want to do may run up against societies ideas or more likely, run into the corners of what society likes.

In the US, there is, for example, a strong bias toward male leadership in marriage. Some women need a more equitable arrangement and if in caught in one of those 80/20 marriages will NOT have an easy time of it.

I am not trying to justify bad behavior (though note that "bad" is a value judgement). I am pointing out that this is a very complicated subject. 

I commend you on your quest and hope that you have success.


----------



## soulpotato

sidney2718 said:


> You know that you are not alone. Many of us on TAM also want to be able to talk to WS's, former and current. We get only one side of the story and that almost always from the betrayed HUSBAND. The few BW's that come by usually don't post in CWI for reasons you can readily see.


I do feel alone oftentimes, actually. True, there are many betrayed husbands here. I am quite glad to talk to civil BSs. My own betrayed partner clammed up and didn't want to talk about those feelings so much, so I tried to understand through TAM.



sidney2718 said:


> I commend you on your quest and hope that you have success.


Thank you. I really hope so, too. I am trying so hard. Some days I feel very discouraged.


----------



## russell28

soulpotato said:


> I know. A lot of people on TAM are hurting and constantly being triggered. Even us former waywards, believe it or not.
> 
> Well, you guys don't have any personal investment in _other_ (random) WSs and whether or not they are "truly" remorseful, doing things "right", etc, so giving more of a benefit of the doubt where it affects you less (and may benefit others more) would be okay, wouldn't it? If a former wayward comes on saying they are remorseful, if that can be accepted as a working reality/truth (not saying those more difficult conversations can't still happen), it might better help them and their BS, no? But if said remorseful FWS is often challenged or treated aggressively, they may just shut down or even withdraw from the forum (where they could be helped, and therefore their BS could be helped).
> 
> I can imagine it's very hard, especially when the pain and betrayal are fresh. But I wish we could have those kinds of dialogues.
> 
> 
> 
> I see why you found that triggering. That is a very specific situation, though, and I don't think anyone being hateful or inflammatory should be given a pass for it (WS OR BS). And that goes for talking trash in general, too.
> 
> I'm not asking for coddling, just civility and respect. It has been said here before, but most people are a lot more likely to listen to someone who is approaching in a respectful fashion rather than telling them what horrible human beings they are. I really want to learn and get help here, but that is hard to do when I feel threatened or attacked by someone (especially someone I don't even know!). I wall right up when aggression is directed towards me. A lot of people do.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the impulse. It's just that being challenged constantly across all the threads gets to be alienating and I would think it would defeat the purpose. After all, is a former wayward going to feel more remorseful if they are constantly being questioned or even challenged as to whether they are truly remorseful? I would think they might feel frustrated and even angry. It is hard to hear the messages that others might want to impart to us when they seem hostile.
> 
> 
> 
> But that's just it. No one on an internet forum can see actions, or get the whole story. As you say, there's only what's relayed through text. Do you see what I mean about this sort of pattern being counterproductive? That habitually challenging or accusing former waywards of being insincere, lying, or not being truly remorseful is just not going to go anywhere good in a lot of cases? Because doing so is not going to make the UNremorseful change (or matter to them at all, most likely), but it is surely going to affect those who have come here with the will to change and remorse in their hearts. No one likes to be treated like that, especially when they are actually sincere and hurting themselves. (And yes, I'm fully aware that the pain of a WS is different from that of a BS, but I don't believe that makes it meaningless or insignificant.)
> 
> There is an awful lot of proving that is demanded here, but really the only person a FWS should have to prove themself to is the person they betrayed. And if former waywards come here despite the harsh environment (especially if they try to stick around), I think that means something. I think more would stay if the environment were less hostile.
> 
> Thank you, Russell.


I will show respect, but if someone says something that insults me, such as implying that the BS is somehow responsible for the choice to cheat by the WS, as we've seen in this thread. Someone telling all us BS' that if we are men, our wives cheated on us because we're not strong enough and such. I will challenge that. Please also give specific examples when accusing me of habitually challenging or accusing former waywards of being insincere, lying, or not being truly remorseful.

Basically, if you want me to show respect, I expect to be treated with respect. Not insulted and belittled. Even if it's done in a polite way, as so often is the case lately on TAM. People will say "please let me insult you, thank you" and they are showing respect because they said please and thank you.

Thank you.


----------



## Faeleaf

It's possible to have a difference of opinion with someone and still show them respect. 

In fact, to my knowledge it's the only way even remotely likely to prompt them to change their mind.


----------



## russell28

Often they don't want to change, they just want us BS to say that we are cool with their justifications and reasons.. that they had good reasons to cheat.


----------



## dignityhonorpride

sidney2718 said:


> You know that you are not alone. Many of us on TAM also want to be able to talk to WS's, former and current. We get only one side of the story and that almost always from the betrayed HUSBAND. The few BW's that come by usually don't post in CWI for reasons you can readily see.
> 
> Zanne was banned for pushing a point of view that is detrimental to the overall aims of TAM. Those aims are to attempt to preserve marriages where possible and in cases where it is not, to allow for a decent divorce.


As a betrayed wife, I would like to chime in and second this. Sometimes it's really difficult to read and write here, and I sincerely wish there were more BWs and WSs around.


----------



## Wolf1974

soulpotato said:


> Maybe for some of us that failure comes down to needing external validation, having poor boundaries, and being broken in certain ways. I am better on boundaries, still trying to figure out how to install that internal validation system properly. A good chunk of my time revolves around doing work for therapy and trying to fix my brokenness.


I have no issue with this thought process. If someone recognizes they are broken and what they did was wrong and are trying to heal, apologize and move forward what more can you do. That's just not the normal wayward here unfortunately. But the few who do have the respect of many.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

soulpotato said:


> Maybe for some of us that failure comes down to needing external validation, having poor boundaries, and being broken in certain ways.


This is very insightful SP and I wish you every success with your personal work.

I wonder though, if YOU feel that your partner could have helped you heal more from this? 
If so, how?

I ask because my WH has said very similar things to me about his brokenness, poor boundaries and need for external validation. 
I want to help him if it's possible to do so.

I've also realised that when I am triggered by something he has done or said and instead of blaming and scapegoating his betrayal, I am sometimes able to reflect on my own weaknesses and poor boundaries in relation to myself and my own needs, and so consequentially also within the marital relationship itself.

If, and I admit it is a BIG if, because it ALMOST seems like I am justifying his betrayal by doing so, I can discuss those personal weakness/s of mine with him, it somehow opens up the conversation into a lighter and clearer space, whereby we seem able to talk without bitterness and recrimination. 

This is the place where real healing seems to happen. I admit though that it is a painful place to be, but I know it's a necessary one.


----------



## soulpotato

russell28 said:


> I will show respect, but if someone says something that insults me, such as implying that the BS is somehow responsible for the choice to cheat by the WS, as we've seen in this thread. Someone telling all us BS' that if we are men, our wives cheated on us because we're not strong enough and such. I will challenge that.


Yes, in the case you're speaking of in this thread, that needs a challenge. But sometimes a WS really isn't trying to imply such a thing. I know when a WS tries to talk about their internal problems that allowed them to cheat, BS's sometimes feel blamed. I think it can be tricky to talk about such things without triggering people. 

I can't speak for or take responsibility for people who toss hurtful things out there (especially those who aren't even former waywards), but it's not about how strong you are as men. Why your wives cheated has nothing to do with your strength. That's back to blaming.



russell28 said:


> Please also give specific examples when accusing me of habitually challenging or accusing former waywards of being insincere, lying, or not being truly remorseful.


I was just using your wording from your post - "So I guess we question 'remorseful' constantly." I was not accusing anyone or being personal/specific at all. I think you may be taking my response differently from how I intended it.  



russell28 said:


> Basically, if you want me to show respect, I expect to be treated with respect. Not insulted and belittled. Even if it's done in a polite way, as so often is the case lately on TAM. People will say "please let me insult you, thank you" and they are showing respect because they said please and thank you.
> 
> Thank you.


Well, of course. We should all be respectful to each other. I hope you didn't feel I insulted, disrespected, or belittled you in any way, because that was not my intention. I thanked you because I really appreciated your post and how you spoke to me. (I know, I've seen the polite insults on both sides.)


----------



## soulpotato

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> This is very insightful SP and I wish you every success with your personal work.


Thank you very much, I appreciate that. 



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I wonder though, if YOU feel that your partner could have helped you heal more from this?


Yes, absolutely. I often felt like we were very divided, almost as if we rarely came together emotionally. This was true even before I cheated. And there didn't seem to be much compromise when it came to meeting my needs in the relationship, though I tried to give her everything she asked for from me. There were pre-existing relationship problems (including intimacy) that interfered with our rebuilding, and I do not feel she was all-in during R or really working with me to heal our relationship or herself. I expected that she'd need some time and that there would be some resistance, but after more than a year and a half, things were much the same. She is just now starting IC and her own internal work.

I often felt alone in our relationship. Alone struggling to make things work and do whatever needed to be done. So that's some of what she could have done to have helped me.



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> If so, how?


Open communication is a big one. Being able to talk openly about problems, needs, etc. Work on any pre-existing problems in the relationship (at some point - it's not reasonable to hope for that until some time has passed since d-day) is very important, too.



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I ask because my WH has said very similar things to me about his brokenness, poor boundaries and need for external validation.
> I want to help him if it's possible to do so.


BA, that is amazing. To think of wanting to help him while you have been hurt and betrayed is really something. Well, I know aside from the things I mentioned up above, I'd say what's important for him is feeling that he still has an emotional connection to you and you to him, and also that there is a path to redemption for him with you. Is he in therapy? 



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I've also realised that when I am triggered by something he has done or said and instead of blaming and scapegoating his betrayal, I am sometimes able to reflect on my own weaknesses and poor boundaries in relation to myself and my own needs, and so consequentially also within the marital relationship itself.


This is terrific. It sounds to me like you are already doing things that will significantly help the marriage, both now and in the future. I think it is critical that not only the affair be dealt with, but also the problems that existed pre-affair, both between partners and within each one. You are already doing that.



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> If, and I admit it is a BIG if, because it ALMOST seems like I am justifying his betrayal by doing so, I can discuss those personal weakness/s of mine with him, it somehow opens up the conversation into a lighter and clearer space, whereby we seem able to talk without bitterness and recrimination.


My own betrayed partner said in the beginning that if she said nice things about me or felt positively about me, she was invalidating her own pain/feelings. I imagine it's difficult to be vulnerable with the person who betrayed you.  That's very brave of you. You sound like you're the one leading the way to healing! Yes, I imagine he feels safer being vulnerable and more open with you when that happens. That is rebuilding your bond. 



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> This is the place where real healing seems to happen. I admit though that it is a painful place to be, but I know it's a necessary one.


See, you know all these things.  If he does his part, I think the outlook is very good. Did you post your story on here somewhere? I'll have to take a look.


----------



## soulpotato

russell28 said:


> Often they don't want to change, they just want us BS to say that we are cool with their justifications and reasons.. that they had good reasons to cheat.


I think a number of us former waywards want to change. Those I've _spoken_ to - none of us feel that we want our BSs to say it was fine, because we don't feel it was fine either. We also don't want them to say we had good reasons to cheat. Some of us had good reasons to be _unhappy_, but there are no good reasons to cheat. And we know this.

Now the people who come on and post a couple of times and vanish after getting everyone upset - I don't know about them. Maybe they go on to change, maybe they don't. We can only hope so.


----------



## russell28

soulpotato said:


> Yes, in the case you're speaking of in this thread, that needs a challenge. But sometimes a WS really isn't trying to imply such a thing. I know when a WS tries to talk about their internal problems that allowed them to cheat, BS's sometimes feel blamed. I think it can be tricky to talk about such things without triggering people.
> 
> I can't speak for or take responsibility for people who toss hurtful things out there (especially those who aren't even former waywards), but it's not about how strong you are as men. Why your wives cheated has nothing to do with your strength. That's back to blaming.
> 
> 
> 
> I was just using your wording from your post - "So I guess we question 'remorseful' constantly." I was not accusing anyone or being personal/specific at all. I think you may be taking my response differently from how I intended it.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, of course. We should all be respectful to each other. I hope you didn't feel I insulted, disrespected, or belittled you in any way, because that was not my intention. I thanked you because I really appreciated your post and how you spoke to me. (I know, I've seen the polite insults on both sides.)


I wasn't speaking of you specifically. I enjoy reading your posts, and have never felt you were trying to insult or belittle me. I was speaking in general terms. I do respect you and your opinions and appreciate your contributions to the forum.






soulpotato said:


> I think a number of us former waywards want to change. Those I've _spoken_ to - none of us feel that we want our BSs to say it was fine, because we don't feel it was fine either. We also don't want them to say we had good reasons to cheat. Some of us had good reasons to be _unhappy_, but there are no good reasons to cheat. And we know this.
> 
> Now the people who come on and post a couple of times and vanish after getting everyone upset - I don't know about them. Maybe they go on to change, maybe they don't. We can only hope so.


The ones I mentioned, that are looking for validation, run when they realize they're not going to be told it's all good by the majority of posters, they don't want to hear the truth that they aren't being a very good person and they should look at that and try to do the right thing instead of justifying why the wrong thing is okay in their particular circumstance.


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> Mostly because the mods allow it. It seems to me that it is against the spirit if not the rules of TAM.


That's why I suggested separate forums for BSs and WSs

That way it can be understood that WSs can say what they want in their forum and it can be strictly understood that BSs should let them say what they want

And BSs can have a forum where it can be strictly understood that if they don't want to hear WSs and blameshifting, then they know to tread lightly. Each forum could have stricter rules regarding "the other side". Or maybe not stricter rules, but much less leeway. I for one would love such a forum where BSs can say what they want without a WS coming in and telling us, whether directly or using their own situation, that we are at fault for being cheated on.


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> People who get cheated on are victims. That's true. The statement that "Waywards *tend* to blame the victims (i.e. the BS's) isn't true. It varies greatly from case to case.


It most certainly IS true. If someone says they "tend" to blame their "victims", then that means it happens more times than not, because as you said, it varies from case to case.

*Most* WSs will start rattling off what their BS did or didn't do to push them to cheat. That IS a tendency to blame their BS.

Rarely do we see a WS come here and, from the get go, say they only cheated because they wanted strange, or some other reason. The majority of cases WSs "tend" to highlight their BS shortcomings. i.e. blaming their "victims".


----------



## vellocet

Faeleaf said:


> It's possible to have a difference of opinion with someone and still show them respect.


This is true, depending on what the difference of opinion is.

If the difference of opinion is, for example, that one person thinks its perfectly ok to beat a woman if she mouths off, and the other doesn't, sorry, but I'm not going to respect the former.

I'm not going to say, "I beg to differ, but I respect you for your mindset that you think its ok to beat women".

Same with someone that thinks they are entitled to cheat on someone and blame them for it. What is to respect?


----------



## vellocet

Wolf1974 said:


> I have no issue with this thought process. If someone recognizes they are broken and what they did was wrong and are trying to heal, apologize and move forward what more can you do. That's just not the normal wayward here unfortunately. But the few who do have the respect of many.


:iagree: This exactly. Bumped for truth.


----------



## NextTimeAround

vellocet said:


> This is true, depending on what the difference of opinion is.
> 
> *If the difference of opinion is, for example, that one person thinks its perfectly ok to beat a woman if she mouths off, and the other doesn't, sorry, but I'm not going to respect the former.*
> 
> I'm not going to say, "I beg to differ, but I respect you for your mindset that you think its ok to beat women".
> 
> Same with someone that thinks they are entitled to cheat on someone and blame them for it. What is to respect?


It is interesting how changing times change what is considered acceptable. "Let's agree to disagree" doesn't work for everything.


----------



## Mr. Dee

Well, even if she's banned, she might be reading here. So I'll say: everyone who was telling Zanne she is ok, she is right, poor her, good for her, is wrong.  In my opinion. Which is from experience.

I can say this because except for being male, I was Zanne for a while. I too agonized over the hurt I was causing my wife (even if she didn't know about me and xAP). I felt bad for what I was doing. But did I stop? No. I told myself I would many times, just like Zanne is telling us she would -- but did I do anything about it? No. I just kept hurting my family, unknown to them. For years. That's how it works in "the fog" I guess.

My xAP and I would tell each other it was for the best, etc. At the time I really thought that was true but I can see clearly now and it was just us protecting ourselves from the inconvenience of facing what horrible people we were.

So everyone who is telling Zanne they're proud she's planning to tell all, they understand she's trying to not hurt anyone, blah blah blah, is just telling her what she already tells herself to excuse herself from not actually doing the right thing. I heard the same story in my own inner voice, and the more outside people who would support that, the less likely I was to doubt it and actually do that right thing. This voice really hurt my life. If only I had been forced to ignore it long before I finally did.

I will not feed your voice Zanne. I'm living proof that things only get worse the more you wait.


----------



## karole

I have my doubts Zanne will actually confess - she's been on this board before saying she was going to, but never followed through. I think she just gets a mere moment where she feels a little guilt and makes the decision to confess, but after she talks to the OM, she's right back to where she has been all along - hiding, lying, sneaking and cheating.


----------



## jld

Isn't the only reason she is waiting is to get a job? And she cannot find one? Maybe she lives in an area without much prospect for employment?

She could file and get half the assets and alimony. Surely after 22 years of being a SAHM, she could get alimony. But she feels too guilty to ask for it. If she would just ask for what the law entitles her to, the divorce could be started tomorrow. They could both be free.


----------



## soccermom2three

What I've never understood about Zanne's OM is that he is a lurker here, (they actually met here at TAM), and not once has he come out of lurkdom and defended or protected her when she is being flamed. If this guy loves her soooo much and they are meant to be together, why isn't he here telling people off. I think he's a coward.


----------



## karole

From what she said, they don't have a lot of assets. Her husband was out of work for a while earlier this year, but I believe she said he is now employed. Zanne doesn't have a car or a driver's license. Her license was suspended due to unpaid tickets of some sort. I do recall that she was called for a job interview for a good job, but she chose to spend the weekend with the OM instead of going for the interview. So, she obviously has not been in a hurry to better herself. People on this board have offered suggestions about going to a women's shelter, seeking an advocate to help her in her job search, trying to see if she is qualified for any government assistance and she has brushed off all of those suggestions each time they've been brought up. 

Maybe she is waiting for her OM to divorce so he can come to her rescue - he's already giving her money, so maybe he will get her a car and an apartment too. I think she may be waiting for a very long time though, because it doesn't appear that the OM is really going to leave his wife and children for her, even though Zanne thinks he will.


----------



## jld

soccermom2three said:


> What I've never understood about Zanne's OM is that he is a lurker here, (they actually met here at TAM), and not once has he come out of lurkdom and defended or protected her when she is being flamed. If this guy loves her soooo much and they are meant to be together, why isn't he here telling people off. I think* he's a coward*.


Of course he is. And I think on some level, Zanne knows that.


----------



## jld

I did not know the OM was giving her money.


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> This thread has about run its course. All we have left are a couple of very strong women and a group of *seriously damaged men*. There's nothing more to be learned here except that this group of men is not particularly interested in hearing the WS's side of the story.


Speak for yourself. And your definition of "very strong" must be vastly different from...everyone else's.


----------



## Hope1964

soccermom2three said:


> What I've never understood about Zanne's OM is that he is a lurker here, (they actually met here at TAM), and not once has he come out of lurkdom and defended or protected her when she is being flamed. If this guy loves her soooo much and they are meant to be together, why isn't he here telling people off. I think he's a coward.


They met here at TAM?? Good lord, is this place becoming a big ole hook up site or something? 

Come join TAM, where you can feed your fantasies for a secret hook up!!! All you need to do is to pay them money and you get instant access to private messaging, and the rule is, what happens in PMs stays in PMs!!!


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> Isn't the only *reason* she is waiting is to get a job? And she cannot find one? Maybe she lives in an area without much prospect for employment?
> 
> She could file and get half the assets and alimony. Surely after 22 years of being a SAHM, she could get alimony. But she feels too guilty to ask for it. If she would just ask for what the law entitles her to, the divorce could be started tomorrow. They could both be free.


No, JLD. That is not a reason, but an excuse. Couple that with what karole pointed out, each of Zanne's "reasons" are mostdefinitely *excuses*. Nothing more.

I've been a SAHM for 13+ years. If my husband was as terrible as Zanne has claimed hers is, then I would leave, with the kids. I would go to a shelter, or family. There most certainly are options, which she refuses? refused? to try. I hope she follows through with what she has said she will do... but I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## Maricha75

Hope1964 said:


> They met here at TAM?? Good lord, is this place becoming a big ole hook up site or something?
> 
> Come join TAM, where you can feed your fantasies for a secret hook up!!! All you need to do is to pay them money and you get instant access to private messaging, and the rule is, what happens in PMs stays in PMs!!!


Unless you take it off the board! But that NEVER happens....


----------



## karole

Zanne has said that he bought her phone, pays for their trips and gave her money to pay her tickets. I don't know what else he gives her. The really bad part about him giving Zanne money to me is that the OM's wife has no idea. He makes his wife out to be a horrible person just like Zanne does her husband. I find it hard to believe either of them.


----------



## karole

Hope1964 said:


> They met here at TAM?? Good lord, is this place becoming a big ole hook up site or something?
> 
> Come join TAM, where you can feed your fantasies for a secret hook up!!! All you need to do is to pay them money and you get instant access to private messaging, and the rule is, what happens in PMs stays in PMs!!!


Yep and Zanne is not his first (according to Zanne anyway).


----------



## soccermom2three

Okay, I'm also going to post this, this has always been in the back of mind about Zanne. Maybe I'm overthinking.

On her thread it was mainly men posting. There was a few women but it was almost all men responding to her. I think she liked it. She's had at least two EA's and now the PA. I think she likes attention from men, negative or positive. I kept thinking if the men would just stop posting, she would just go away but she keeps coming back and nothing has changed. She hasn't taken one bit of advice. This is why I think it's a good thing for her that she was banned.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> Isn't the only reason she is waiting is to get a job? And she cannot find one? Maybe she lives in an area without much prospect for employment?
> 
> She could file and get half the assets and alimony. Surely after 22 years of being a SAHM, she could get alimony. But she feels too guilty to ask for it. If she would just ask for what the law entitles her to, the divorce could be started tomorrow. They could both be free.


You're doing a great job of making up reasons and justifications for her doing the wrong thing and taking the destructive path. 

You seem to be quite good at this.

Perhaps she feels guilt about taking anything else from her husband because she knows she's been stealing from him for long enough? She wants to do something right by her husband since she knows she's been wronging him. Of course, she cheats and lies, so I wouldn't believe a word of it. I'd bet she takes him to the cleaners when her boyfriend dumps her after he finds out she's divorcing and wants him to commit to her.


----------



## karole

I honestly don't think Zanne feels any guilt. I think the only reason she may not get alimony is because you can't get blood from a turnip.


----------



## xakulax

Soccermom2three I think you're spot on with your observation


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> You're doing a great job of making up reasons and justifications for her doing the wrong thing and taking the destructive path.
> 
> You seem to be quite good at this.
> 
> Perhaps she feels guilt about taking anything else from her husband because she knows she's been stealing from him for long enough? She wants to do something right by her husband since she knows she's been wronging him. Of course, she cheats and lies, so I wouldn't believe a word of it. I'd bet she takes him to the cleaners when her boyfriend dumps her after he finds out she's divorcing and wants him to commit to her.


I think she is trying to find a way to get out. I do not know her story as well as some. But I think people may not have the story exactly correct, either. And now that she is banned, we may never know.


----------



## jld

karole said:


> I honestly don't think Zanne feels any guilt. I think the only reason she may not get alimony is because you can't get blood from a turnip.


I think she feels guilt. I think she also feels overwhelming hunger, and is unwilling to let go of her food supply.

I agree that the financial issues are the stumbling block to a quick divorce.


----------



## vellocet

soccermom2three said:


> What I've never understood about Zanne's OM is that he is a lurker here, (they actually met here at TAM), and not once has he come out of lurkdom and defended or protected her when she is being flamed. If this guy loves her soooo much and they are meant to be together, why isn't he here telling people off. I think he's a coward.


He probably doesn't want to surface being a guy that gets to go on vacation getaways with his married woman on her husband's dime. I'd be embarrassed too.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> He probably doesn't want to surface being a guy that gets to go on vacation getaways with his married woman on her husband's dime. I'd be embarrassed too.


I thought the OM was paying?


----------



## russell28

vellocet said:


> He probably doesn't want to surface being a guy that gets to go on vacation getaways with his married woman on her husband's dime. I'd be embarrassed too.


He probably is one of the ones giving advice not to divorce the husband.. are there any of those? I bet that's what he's hoping for.. her not to ruin his cake eating plans. She's probably one of two or three he has on the side. I'm sure she trusts him, he'd never cheat on her... 

I bet he would never leave his wife. I've seen it play out before.. Her husband will catch her, he'll file for D, the wife will want to R, the boyfriend will run for the hills back to his loving wife, unless he gets exposed, then the loving wife takes him to the cleaners.... 

But hey, it's all good, the destruction of families, people being abused.. because Zanny's every deep emotional need wasn't being met by her husband. So it's the right thing to do to become a cheating liar that lies.


----------



## jld

I think the bottom line is that Zanne wants out of her marriage. Whatever happens with the OM, she does not respect her husband and wants out. She was not strong enough to get there on her own, I guess.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> I thought the OM was paying?


It was said much earlier in the thread that Zanne's husband gives her money to go on these getaways with the OM. Her H probably pays for the hotel room and most everything else.

The OM probably brings the petty cash.


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> *I think she is trying to find a way to get out.* I do not know her story as well as some. But I think people may not have the story exactly correct, either. And now that she is banned, we may never know.


Bull. If she were, then she would have taken the advice given MANY TIMES OVER. Just stop, JLD. You are making excuses for her behavior. Just stop it!


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> I thought the OM was paying?


I bet it's cheaper than a prostitute for him. 

I bet she also pays something, don't believe her if she says they only use his money. She lies. That's her way of saying she's not stealing from her husband, when actually she's stealing the most precious thing he owns. His respect and dignity.

I bet she believes it.


----------



## jld

karole said:


> Maybe she is waiting for her OM to divorce so he can come to her rescue - he's already giving her money, so maybe he will get her a car and an apartment too. I think she may be waiting for a very long time though, because it doesn't appear that the OM is really going to leave his wife and children for her, even though Zanne thinks he will.


I thought this meant the OM was paying.


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> I think the bottom line is that Zanne wants out of her marriage. Whatever happens with the OM, she does not respect her husband and wants out. She was not strong enough to get there on her own, I guess.


projecting.
She has taken no action to indicate she will leave the marriage. Read her threads. This is not her first rodeo.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> I think the bottom line is that Zanne wants out of her marriage.


But wants him to be the one to file for divorce. My guess is so she can say she didn't file for divorce in the eyes of her fellow "Christians". 

Funny how she says she doesn't want to divorce because she is a "Christian", but ignores the fact that a Christian doesn't cheat on her husband and use him for money.

I can't even believe she even brought up the Christian talk...its one of those, "really??" moments.


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> I think the bottom line is that Zanne wants out of her marriage. Whatever happens with the OM, she does not respect her husband and wants out. * She was not strong enough to get there on her own, I guess.*


Yes, she was... and is. She CHOSE to make the decision she did. It has nothing to do with whether she is "strong enough" or not. It's about whether she has the integrity to actually come clean and let her husband decide if he wants to remain married to HER after she chose to cheat on him.

*smh* I really cannot understand how you can believe this nonsense you keep saying, JLD. Seriously I have read your posts in this thread and the majority, if not all, have all pointed to how it's the fault of the beptrayed that the wayward cheated. And, more specifically, it is blaming the husband when his wife has cheated, be it emotionally or physically. I'm sorry, but when you throw things like that out there, I find it VERY difficult to take you seriously... on any subject.


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> projecting.
> She has taken no action to indicate she will leave the marriage. Read her threads. This is not her first rodeo.


It is not her first affair? 

I think she will leave. It may be taking her longer than she thought, but I think she will. I am kind of curious why her husband has not left.


----------



## Maricha75

vellocet said:


> But wants him to be the one to file for divorce. My guess is so she can say she didn't file for divorce in the eyes of her fellow "Christians".
> 
> Funny how she says she doesn't want to divorce because she is a "Christian", but ignores the fact that a Christian doesn't cheat on her husband and use him for money.
> 
> I can't even believe she even brought up the Christian talk...its one of those, "really??" moments.


And, in reality, if they divorce, HE has the biblical grounds, not her. So there goes her logic (not that there was any) right out the window!


----------



## Hope1964

jld, maybe you should actually read her threads.

Oh wait - that would actually make SENSE to do. Never mind.


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> It is not her first affair?
> 
> I think she will leave. It may be taking her longer than she thought, but I think she will. I am kind of curious why her husband has not left.


No, it's not. As has been stated already, she has had multiple EAs, if not multiple PAs. She's been at this for awhile. Will she leave? Doubtful. I think she is more likely to twist it around to make it look like her affairs were her husband's fault. And he will buy it, and "reconcile". But I say "reconcile" because she has no intention of stopping. If she did, she would have by now.


----------



## vellocet

Maricha75 said:


> And, in reality, if they divorce, HE has the biblical grounds, not her. So there goes her logic (not that there was any) right out the window!


And that's the sickening part. There is a chance, if they divorce, that she might get alimony. But I wouldn't count on it. My X tried to go for it, I told my attorney to fight it tooth and nail. She didn't get it.

Zanne needs to get out and look for a job, period. If she doesn't want anything to do with him, and CLAIMS to want to make this easy, then get a job and don't ask for alimony. Go for child support for sure, but as far as spousal support, have some freaking self respect and decency......for once.


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> Yes, she was... and is. She CHOSE to make the decision she did. It has nothing to do with whether she is "strong enough" or not. It's about whether she has the integrity to actually come clean and let her husband decide if he wants to remain married to HER after she chose to cheat on him.
> 
> *smh* I really cannot understand how you can believe this nonsense you keep saying, JLD. Seriously I have read your posts in this thread and the majority, if not all, have all pointed to how it's the fault of the beptrayed that the wayward cheated. And, more specifically, it is blaming the husband when his wife has cheated, be it emotionally or physically. I'm sorry, but when you throw things like that out there, I find it VERY difficult to take you seriously... on any subject.


She is definitely weak, or at least in this area. I am sure she does not feel much integrity at all. She is probably clinging to her religious beliefs for some feeling of human dignity.

It is not about blaming, Maricha. It is about solving the problem.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> And that's the sickening part. There is a chance, if they divorce, that she might get alimony. But I wouldn't count on it. My X tried to go for it, I told my attorney to fight it tooth and nail. She didn't get it.
> 
> Zanne needs to get out and look for a job, period. If she doesn't want anything to do with him, and CLAIMS to want to make this easy, then get a job and don't ask for alimony. Go for child support for sure, but as far as spousal support, have some freaking self respect and decency......for once.


With no job and no skills, I think she will end up on welfare. But if her husband does not have any money, she will probably end up there anyway.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> With no job and no skills, I think she will end up on welfare.


Nope, she can still get a job.

Skills can now be easily attained with a few classes and paid for under the American Opportunity Act.

She has no excuses other than she just doesn't want to.

And even if she did get alimony, most states go up to 5 years. After 5 years, she can start supporting herself, or find another man to pay her way.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> Nope, she can still get a job.
> 
> Skills can now be easily attained with a few classes and paid for under the American Opportunity Act.
> 
> She has no excuses other than she just doesn't want to.
> 
> And even if she did get alimony, most states go up to 5 years. After 5 years, she can start supporting herself, or find another man to pay her way.


No car, no driving license?


----------



## karole

If I wanted out of a situation as bad as Zanne claims that she does, I would flip burgers, waitress, whatever I had to do to support myself.


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> She is definitely weak, or at least in this area. I am sure she does not feel much integrity at all. She is probably clinging to her religious beliefs for some feeling of human dignity.
> 
> It is not about blaming, Maricha. It is about solving the problem.


And you are missing the point, entirely. By patting her on the head, telling her "there, there", coddling her, you are giving her the green light in this. That does not solve the problem. Booting her in the behind, getting her in gear to actually do something is what solves the problem.


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> No car, no driving license?


I have no car. I rely on family to take me places. And if I had to find a job, they'd take me. All I'd have to do is come up with gas money. The other option is public transportation. Even in the middle of nowhere, there is some form of transportation available. Again, excuses. She may not be able to drive, she can work.


----------



## jld

karole said:


> If I wanted out of a situation as bad as Zanne claims that she does, I would flip burgers, waitress, whatever I had to do to support myself.


But we are not Zanne. The thought was to try to help her, where she is, mentally and emotionally, and to some extent, materially, no?

If she is in rural MN, where even her husband had a hard time getting work, with no skills, driver's license, or car, how realistic is it to expect her to do this all on her own? 

I do agree that if she had a stronger will, she might be able do it. But I am not sure she does, innately, nor that anything in her background would have brought that to her.

She is paying a price for this. Don't worry about that. She will pay a price the rest of her life.


----------



## soulpotato

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I wonder though, if YOU feel that your partner could have helped you heal more from this?
> If so, how?


BA, what about you? What has your WS done that helped you heal, and what do you still need him to do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> I have no car. I rely on family to take me places. And if I had to find a job, they'd take me. All I'd have to do is come up with gas money. The other option is public transportation. Even in the middle of nowhere, there is some form of transportation available. Again, excuses. She may not be able to drive, she can work.


Do you work, Maricha?


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> And you are missing the point, entirely. By patting her on the head, telling her "there, there", coddling her, you are giving her the green light in this. That does not solve the problem. Booting her in the behind, getting her in gear to actually do something is what solves the problem.


I am not justifying her. I do think she needs some understanding, though, to trust enough to listen to advice.

She knows cheating is wrong. She may not be willing to stop yet, but I am sure she knows it is wrong.


----------



## karole

Did you read where she had a job interview (which she said was a good job) and she skipped it to spend a weekend with the OM? That tells me that she is really not too determined to get a job. 

There are programs available for people like Zanne and many posters have encouraged her to seek out those programs in her area, but she never has, she always had an excuse of why she couldn't. That leads me to believe that her situation isn't as bad as what she indicates because if it was, she would be doing anything and everything to get herself and her children out of the situation. 

There are just some people in this world that you CANNOT help and Zanne is one of them. Until she hits rock bottom and has to drag herself up from the pits, she isn't going to change - unfortunately.


----------



## bfree

I am privy to more than many about Zanne's situation having been in on the very beginnings of her journey here at TAM. She has had many opportunities to leave. She has had job offers including one that she blew off to go hook up with her affair partner. She could have had help from church groups, women's organizations, shelters, government agencies etc. She has found an excuse to walk away from all help offered or suggested. I am literally sick to my stomach about her and the havoc she has created for herself, her husband. her children and many others involved in her life on the periphery. She is not weak, she is not confused, she is immoral.


----------



## Hope1964

bfree said:


> I am privy to more than many about Zanne's situation having been in on the very beginnings of her journey here at TAM. She has had many opportunities to leave. She has had job offers including one that she blew off to go hook up with her affair partner. She could have had help from church groups, women's organizations, shelters, government agencies etc. She has found an excuse to walk away from all help offered or suggested. I am literally sick to my stomach about her and the havoc she has created for herself, her husband. her children and many others involved in her life on the periphery. She is not weak, she is not confused, she is immoral.


Oh, but it isn't HER fault she's that way. It's her husbands fault because he didn't meet her deepest emotional needs, or act like a REAL man, or something. 

And of COURSE she deserves alimony! Why should she have to WORK, when her husband MADE her this way? Poor thing must be just beside herself with anguish about the fact she's suffering so. Give her a break!!!!


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> Do you work, Maricha?


Disability. I guess you missed my post where I said "I have been a SAHM for 13+ years" huh?

So, same question for you,. Do you work? Do you know what is availiable, should you ever find yourself in a position where you would need to work?


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> I am not justifying her. I do think she needs some understanding, though, to trust enough to listen to advice.
> 
> She knows cheating is wrong. She may not be willing to stop yet, but I am sure she knows it is wrong.


Of course she knows cheating is wrong, JLD. What I'm saying is that your posts, coddling her, ARE NOT HELPING her... or any other wayward/former wayward, for that matter.


----------



## Maricha75

Maricha75 said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you work, Maricha?
> 
> 
> 
> Disability. I guess you missed my post where I said "I have been a SAHM for 13+ years" huh?
> 
> So, same question for you,. Do you work? Do you know what is availiable, should you ever find yourself in a position where you would need to work?
Click to expand...

What I'm getting at, JLD, is that Zanne HAS been told of all these options. She has been told multiple times of the last few years. She CHOOSES not to take the advice, CHOOSES not to go to job interviews. Rather, she spends time having sex with the OM. I really wish someone could tell his wife as well as her husband instead of hoping these two will finally own up to it instead of being cowards.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> It is not her first affair?
> 
> I think she will leave. It may be taking her longer than she thought, but I think she will. I am kind of curious why her husband has not left.


Lol because she LIES. He suspects but he doesn't know for sure


I hope he does find out so he can go to find himself a good woman.


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> Disability. I guess you missed my post where I said "I have been a SAHM for 13+ years" huh?
> 
> So, same question for you,. Do you work? Do you know what is availiable, should you ever find yourself in a position where you would need to work?


No, I don't work. Or not for pay. I have been a SAHM for 19 years.

I have a teaching degree, though I do not think there are many openings in our area.

Dh has always worked. It does give him a lot of power in the marriage.


----------



## Wolf1974

Maricha75 said:


> What I'm getting at, JLD, is that Zanne HAS been told of all these options. She has been told multiple times of the last few years. She CHOOSES not to take the advice, CHOOSES not to go to job interviews. Rather, she spends time having sex with the OM. I really wish someone could tell his wife as well as her husband instead of hoping these two will finally own up to it instead of being cowards.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Exactly right. And since she knows it's wrong and doesn't stop or correct it it's not a mistake. Every lie she tells, every time she has sex with the OM is intentional wrongdoing. Their is no mistake here


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> What I'm getting at, JLD, is that Zanne HAS been told of all these options. She has been told multiple times of the last few years. She CHOOSES not to take the advice, CHOOSES not to go to job interviews. Rather, she spends time having sex with the OM. I really wish someone could tell his wife as well as her husband instead of hoping these two will finally own up to it instead of being cowards.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Do you not think she is going to get what is coming to her? Do you not think there will be sufficient punishment for a woman who already has not lived the easiest life? 

Is that what is really bothering everyone? That Zanne will not suffer enough?


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> Do you not think she is going to get what is coming to her? Do you not think there will be sufficient punishment for a woman who already has not lived the easiest life?
> 
> Is that what is really bothering everyone? That Zanne will not suffer enough?


No I think what's bothering people is that she is lying and blame shifting and not taking accountability for her own actions. None.

We have no idea what the fallout will be when this all blows up but I do know two things

1 any fallout of the affair will be of her own doing

2 she will never heal anything while lying and cheating. Nothing. Not for herself or her family


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> Do you not think she is going to get what is coming to her? Do you not think there will be sufficient punishment for a woman who already has not lived the easiest life?
> 
> Is that what is really bothering everyone? That Zanne will not suffer enough?


Insufficient punishment for a woman who has not had the easiest life? Are you KIDDING ME??? Lady, you really are clueless if THAT is what you ahve gleaned from my, as well as the other posts. Wow, JLD... Just, wow...

No, JLD. It isn't about her not suffering enough. It's about TELLING THE TRUTH. She professes to be a Christian while f*cking another man. SHE has done that.

I'm just... wow... 

Just so you know, I am definitely fuming here. What p!sses me off the most is that here is a woman who has NO F*CKING CLUE aboult infidelity... NONE, and is trying to give advice and coddle those who do not WANT to stop the affairs. And no, Zanne does NOT want to stop the affair. If she did, she would have. You really are completely clueless, JLD... and least about infidelity, anyway.


----------



## honcho

jld said:


> I think she is trying to find a way to get out. I do not know her story as well as some. But I think people may not have the story exactly correct, either. And now that she is banned, we may never know.


2 years from now Zanne will be in the same position she is in now. as someone mentioned earlier, she wants attention good or bad. She doesnt want her situation to change. She is living for the drama more than trying to ever find peace or happiness in her life.


----------



## Pluto2

jld said:


> Do you not think she is going to get what is coming to her? Do you not think there will be sufficient punishment for a woman who already has not lived the easiest life?
> 
> Is that what is really bothering everyone? That Zanne will not suffer enough?


Despite what you may (or may not think), I don't believe Zanne should be stoned in a public square. What I would like to see happen more than anything else if for her to 1) stop hurting the people in her life, 2) take responsibility. 

Any our travels into Z's problems is why I do not *believe* active cheaters are helpful contributors. They lie, they blameshift and they hurt people. If acknowledging a "helpful" contribution, you are aiding and abetting in their deceit. I do not expect others to share my view. Just putting it out there.


----------



## karole

Well, I guess I'm an ass, because I do think she should suffer. I don't think she needs to be stoned either, but I think she (and the OM) do need to feel the same pain that she has knowingly and willingly inflicted upon her husband, children, the OM's wife and the OM's children. If she does not suffer, what will keep her from repeating the same mistakes again? Isn't that how we learn hard lessons and ensure we don't repeat them? 

The absolute worst part of it all is, Zanne and OM deserve their suffering, but their family members do not, but they don't have a choice in the matter.

Sorry if I've offended...


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> I think the bottom line is that Zanne wants out of her marriage. Whatever happens with the OM, she does not respect her husband and wants out. She was not strong enough to get there on her own, I guess.


That's been the whole issue JLD,

She SAYS she wants out but ALL of her actions show otherwise.

Think about it. She talks about money and yet CHOSE to go on a little vaca trip with her OM instead of going to a job interview.

What does that tell you.

She's content with her situation. She gets to stay home and not work and be given money by her husband. She gets all of her emotional needs met by another man. WHY would she ever want to change? That's when life would get REAL.

Her OM would have to leave his wife....who knows if that will happen, we know the statistics though. She'd ACTUALLY have to work and hold down a job. She'd ACTUALLY have to pay her own way etc.

She's a cake eater....period. She's a user and a manipulator.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

jld said:


> It is not her first affair?
> 
> I think she will leave. It may be taking her longer than she thought, but I think she will. I am kind of curious why her husband has not left.


Who says her husband truly knows her actions...Because ZANNE has said so?!?!

Hmmm, cheaters are never deceitful.......


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> No car, no driving license?


Get them. I'm sure there is more than one car in the household, of which one she is entitled. If not, take out a loan like the rest of us and get a used car.

Keep making excuses for her all you want in your desire to see the man pay up.


----------



## lenzi

Talk about a tribute thread.

zanne is probably reading this thread and basking in all the attention.

Most posters know this and yet they can't help themselves from typing out the posts at a rapid fire pace.

Even though it won't do a bit of good.

Carry on


----------



## vellocet

Maricha75 said:


> I have no car. I rely on family to take me places. And if I had to find a job, they'd take me. All I'd have to do is come up with gas money. The other option is public transportation. Even in the middle of nowhere, there is some form of transportation available. Again, excuses. She may not be able to drive, she can work.


Public transportation, walk to work, no excuses.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> But we are not Zanne. The thought was to try to help her, where she is, mentally and emotionally, and to some extent, materially, no?


Nope. We can help her take the steps to free herself, or work things out with her husband(which isn't going to happen)

But materially? Nope. That is her problem and not her husband's of whom she is using and abusing.
She can start looking for a job now. Work, save up the money to get a car, get her license, save some money and pay the deposit on an apartment.

Quit making excuses for her.




> If she is in rural MN, where even her husband had a hard time getting work, with no skills, driver's license, or car, how realistic is it to expect her to do this all on her own?


Well if her husband does indeed have a hard time getting work, how the hell is he going to give her money?

Sorry, she has options. Get any job she can find, save the money, work towards her independence. She can do it, just probably doesn't want to. It may not be the material life she wants, but sorry, that is just tough shyte. She frees herself, then she can latch on to any other poor soul she can find to help her share expenses.

That's another issue. She can find someone who needs a roommate in an apartment if she is worried about expenses and such. Options abound.


----------



## vellocet

bfree said:


> I am privy to more than many about Zanne's situation having been in on the very beginnings of her journey here at TAM. She has had many opportunities to leave. *She has had job offers including one that she blew off to go hook up with her affair partner*. She could have had help from church groups, women's organizations, shelters, government agencies etc. She has found an excuse to walk away from all help offered or suggested. I am literally sick to my stomach about her and the havoc she has created for herself, her husband. her children and many others involved in her life on the periphery. She is not weak, she is not confused, she is immoral.


:iagree:

This excellent post needed bumped for truth. Especially the bolded part.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> Do you not think she is going to get what is coming to her? Do you not think there will be sufficient punishment for a woman who already has not lived the easiest life?
> 
> Is that what is really bothering everyone? That Zanne will not suffer enough?


Nope. What bothers me is that she is going to make her husband suffer, and attempt to make him suffer more by attempting to get spousal support for being an adulterous abuser.

I'm concerned with her husband's suffering as a BS who is about to get bent over even more.


----------



## Hope1964

But she must not be at that point in her life where she is able to take a job. She must be suffering so much from screwing around that she just isn't emotionally ready. If her husband will just meet all of her deepest emotional needs, he can help her get to the point of being emotionally able to venture out into the big bad world.


----------



## vellocet

Damn Hope, I like you!! :smthumbup:


----------



## vellocet




----------



## Maricha75

Also, in case any wayward lurkers are still reading this far... I can't remember if I posted eary in the thread or not, but I am a fWW, and don't take kindly to WS, or anyone else in their corners, trying to justify the actions. And that is all it is... justification. You can try to paint it however you like, but it still boils down to justifying the affair. And as long as you are still doing that, then those of us who have been there, on EITHER side, or both sides, cannot help you. Stop justifying and you can get sincere help.


----------



## vellocet

Pluto2 said:


> Despite what you may (or may not think), I don't believe Zanne should be stoned in a public square.


I completely agree. She just needs to stop making her desires her husband's problem.


----------



## vellocet

Maricha75 said:


> Also, in case any wayward lurkers are still reading this far... I can't remember if I posted eary in the thread or not, but I am a fWW, and don't take kindly to WS, or anyone else in their corners, trying to justify the actions. And that is all it is... justification. You can try to paint it however you like, but it still boils down to justifying the affair. And as long as you are still doing that, then those of us who have been there, on EITHER side, or both sides, cannot help you. Stop justifying and you can get sincere help.


And nobody here, at least not that I can see recently or lately, bashes the hell out of Maricha. Not even mean old me

Maricha, sorry if I didn't have you on my list of the very small group of WSs I admire. You are on it now.


----------



## Maricha75

vellocet said:


> And nobody here, at least not that I can see recently or lately, bashes the hell out of Maricha. Not even mean old me
> 
> Maricha, sorry if I didn't have you on my list of the very small group of WSs I admire. You are on it now.


Lol no worries. Also, I ahve to say that I am not naive enough to believe that there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO chance I will relapse. Of course that chance exists! I've already proven I could do something that stupid. The difference is that I actively prevent myself from getting into such situations. And if unavoidable, I watch MYSELF and my OWN behavior. I am responsible for me. I am not responsible for my husband, or anyone else. I choose my own actions, both good and bad. And if I were to do something stupid, I would EXPECT the @$$ kicking, no doubt about it!

*disclaimer* I have no intentions of doing anything to betray my husband, ever again. My only point is that I recognize that it's not impossible, no matter what anyone else thinks. I just make sure, myself, that I don't. That's really all I CAN do.


----------



## vellocet

Maricha75 said:


> Lol no worries. Also, I ahve to say that I am not naive enough to believe that there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO chance I will relapse. Of course that chance exists! I've already proven I could do something that stupid. The difference is that I actively prevent myself from getting into such situations. And if unavoidable, I watch MYSELF and my OWN behavior. I am responsible for me. I am not responsible for my husband, or anyone else. I choose my own actions, both good and bad. And if I were to do something stupid, I would EXPECT the @$$ kicking, no doubt about it!
> 
> *disclaimer* I have no intentions of doing anything to betray my husband, ever again. My only point is that I recognize that it's not impossible, no matter what anyone else thinks. I just make sure, myself, that I don't. That's really all I CAN do.


But I have confidence that if you do relapse, while I'd be pissed at you, you would put the blame where it belongs, on yourself.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Maricha75 said:


> Lol no worries. Also, I ahve to say that I am not naive enough to believe that there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO chance I will relapse. Of course that chance exists! I've already proven I could do something that stupid. The difference is that I actively prevent myself from getting into such situations. And if unavoidable, I watch MYSELF and my OWN behavior. I am responsible for me. I am not responsible for my husband, or anyone else. I choose my own actions, both good and bad. And if I were to do something stupid, I would EXPECT the @$$ kicking, no doubt about it!
> 
> *disclaimer* I have no intentions of doing anything to betray my husband, ever again. My only point is that I recognize that it's not impossible, no matter what anyone else thinks. I just make sure, myself, that I don't. That's really all I CAN do.


You speak the truth, and you give us hope. Thanks.

What a thread!


----------



## soccermom2three

> But we are not Zanne. The thought was to try to help her, where she is, mentally and emotionally, and to some extent, materially, no?


JLD, Zanne has been here a looong time. I think her original threads are deleted, (sorry I don't have time to look), she was here asking for advice even before her affair. People here at TAM have been trying to help for years. She does exactly the opposite or nothing in regards to advice. Then she leaves for a while and when she comes back her life is worse. This is why I think she likes the attention even if it's negative.

I do remember that she's had one PA where she was flirting with an EA in a bar and they kissed. She also had an EA with a married man that she knew through church. Now she's in another PA. She wants what she wants. That's all there is to it. To be honest, I think she's waiting around and not leaving her husband because she's waiting on the OM. If the OM doesn't divorce his wife, then Zanne is probably going to stay with her husband. She's got nowhere else to go. Her husband is plan B.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

soulpotato said:


> Yes, absolutely. I often felt like we were very divided, almost as if we rarely came together emotionally. This was true even before I cheated. And there didn't seem to be much compromise when it came to meeting my needs in the relationship, though I tried to give her everything she asked for from me. There were pre-existing relationship problems (including intimacy) that interfered with our rebuilding, and I do not feel she was all-in during R or really working with me to heal our relationship or herself. I expected that she'd need some time and that there would be some resistance, but after more than a year and a half, things were much the same. She is just now starting IC and her own internal work.
> 
> I often felt alone in our relationship. Alone struggling to make things work and do whatever needed to be done. So that's some of what she could have done to have helped me.




Yes, I think he felt alone too. I think he also struggled in his own way to make things work, but I think pre infidelity, we wanted different things from our relationship. I wanted honesty and emotional intimacy, he just wanted to ignore emotional issues and dealt with them in a passive-aggressive way. It's strange though because he was really searching for emotional intimacy himself, (he now knows) but was looking in completely the wrong place. 

I was probably too intense about it for him to deal with, hence his escape into rescuing the damsel in distress to feed that emotional intimacy that he believed he couldn't get from our relationship. He says now that it was because his mother was a very dominant and aggressive woman and he just transferred his emotional separation from her onto our relationship. 




soulpotato said:


> Open communication is a big one. Being able to talk openly about problems, needs, etc. Work on any pre-existing problems in the relationship (at some point - it's not reasonable to hope for that until some time has passed since d-day) is very important, too.
> 
> BA, that is amazing. To think of wanting to help him while you have been hurt and betrayed is really something. Well, I know aside from the things I mentioned up above, I'd say what's important for him is feeling that he still has an emotional connection to you and you to him, and also that there is a path to redemption for him with you. Is he in therapy?


He went for about eight months, but I'm thinking he probably needs some more, although I believe the crucible of our marriage is helping him in many ways. This gets difficult because I have to be strong then and it's a huge balancing act. On the one hand I have to be accountable to my own needs and boundaries, but yet still let him feel his way towards his own recovery by being able to be himself, allowing him the space to grow towards health. He fails sometimes and I also know for a fact I do in relation to my own needs, but we seem to be humming along with some hiccups along the way. 

He has a bad case of KISA and this is what led to these EA's. They start off as what he sees as being relatively harmless, but gradually it grows. He is getting it. Seeing for himself that his need for external validation and poor boundaries is what starts the motor of his KISA running and the feeding of it is continued by the women that he just had to advise and rescue.



soulpotato said:


> This is terrific. It sounds to me like you are already doing things that will significantly help the marriage, both now and in the future. I think it is critical that not only the affair be dealt with, but also the problems that existed pre-affair, both between partners and within each one. You are already doing that.


Yes, you are absolutely right it is completely essential. The betrayal itself was hard of course, but it's the continual unremitting nature of the work that we each have to do post infidelity that takes most of the emotional energy.



soulpotato said:


> My own betrayed partner said in the beginning that if she said nice things about me or felt positively about me, she was invalidating her own pain/feelings. I imagine it's difficult to be vulnerable with the person who betrayed you.  That's very brave of you. You sound like you're the one leading the way to healing! Yes, I imagine he feels safer being vulnerable and more open with you when that happens. That is rebuilding your bond.


Yes this is true also, I know that I have the same difficulty as your partner did, I know exactly where she is coming from. I mean I want to R obviously, but sometimes, particularly when I'm tired or I think one of our boundaries has been crossed in some way, then I can get quite resentful and its hard to stop the bitterness creeping in at those times. I really do try and stay mindful though and listen to where he's at. 

As you pointed out to be vulnerable to the one who betrayed you is extremely hard and sometimes I feel it too difficult, but I guess I believe in his inherent goodness and I do see that in him. The trust is not in him anymore, it has to be in my own inner guidance and belief that to keep on this path, means something bigger and better than the ashes of our previous relationship is on it's way. 



soulpotato said:


> See, you know all these things.  If he does his part, I think the outlook is very good. Did you post your story on here somewhere? I'll have to take a look.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-nice-guy-but-he-doesnt-love-me-any-more.html



soulpotato said:


> BA, what about you? What has your WS done that helped you heal, and what do you still need him to do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He does everything I ask. Is ready to talk when I want to talk, going over the same things if that is what I need to do. He never blames me in anyway for his infidelity, never justifies what he did at all, saying he caused it by his own f'ked uppedness. (In his words)

I know all his passwords to everything. He willingly hands over his phone anytime I ask for it. I know where he is every minute of every day. He tells me he loves me all the time. He's read NMMNG, MMSLP and anything else I ask him to read. He's happy to go back to counselling if I should ask it of him.

So he does a lot. But doing a lot doesn't stop the damage to the absolute trust I had in him. I don't know when or if ever that can come back. 

I think that's what I miss most of all. The freedom that I had before in believing that no matter what, he would have my back and never do anything that could hurt me or cause that trust to die. But it did die. 

Wether a new trust can grow from the ashes of the old remains to be seen. 



Thank you for your response Soul Potato, you come across as a very sensitive and loving person. A pleasure chatting to you!


----------



## russell28

Maricha75 said:


> Lol no worries. Also, I ahve to say that I am not naive enough to believe that there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO chance I will relapse. Of course that chance exists! I've already proven I could do something that stupid. The difference is that I actively prevent myself from getting into such situations. And if unavoidable, I watch MYSELF and my OWN behavior. I am responsible for me. I am not responsible for my husband, or anyone else. I choose my own actions, both good and bad. And if I were to do something stupid, I would EXPECT the @$$ kicking, no doubt about it!
> 
> *disclaimer* I have no intentions of doing anything to betray my husband, ever again. My only point is that I recognize that it's not impossible, no matter what anyone else thinks. I just make sure, myself, that I don't. That's really all I CAN do.


I'm confident you'll be fine, because that's the key right there.. knowing it's a risk, and protecting yourself and your marriage. That's where the 'work' comes in, keeping your focus on your spouse and working on finding them attractive and spending time with them etc.. not putting focus on relationships outside of the marriage, or putting yourself in risky situations where there may be temptation. Not crossing boundaries, keeping your respect and your spouses respect intact. Learning to appreciate that you know your partners every detail, not getting bored or tired but staying interested and loving how they age and change, and realize you are aging and changing too. Instead of getting bored with sex, appreciate the comfort level you have with this person and how special it is.. instead of focusing on how the familiarity is a bad thing. Believe that others are jealous of you and your relationship, don't be jealous of others. Focus on how green your grass is, not how green everyone elses lawn is. If it's not green enough, fertilize it, don't jump the fence.


----------



## RWB

soulpotato said:


> Since faithfulness is the only thing that matters on your "scorecard", you get off scot-free. Nice one. You could be the worst husband in the world, and yet all that would matter would be her infidelity. Phew.
> 
> If you're not interested in beating up on the "b-team", you're saying this to Regret because....?





Regret214 said:


> I actually thought it was a good and insightful post. He's admitting that he did feel that sense of wielding a hammer of righteousness, but that it became dull to continue doing it. I don't know if RWB is in reconciliation or not, but he did reply using my terminology. I don't think there was anything else to it.


Regret your assessment was spot on. 

I have been in R with my fww for the past 5 years. She has been remorseful and maintained NC from the beginning. Never intended to imply that unfaithfulness was something that should be ranked #1 on the list of Life's Faults. That's a debate for another forum.

Just that during that first year or so of R, my mind was 100% occupied by her cheating. I woke up thinking about it, I laid down at night reviewing it. The anger, hurt, and confusion consumed me and my thoughts. If I were my own Boss, I would of fired myself (LOL).

The "Score Card" comment was while being immature and simplistic, was realistic at the time... considering my state of mind.

But... As the years have passed, I've realized the "Righteous Hammer" was just as much Unrealistic Fantasy as her affairs. When C tell you that it can take years if ever to recover, what they don't tell you... _They or you don't really know what demons you will have to recover from._ I think that's a personal journey for the Betrayed as well as the Wayward.

*Coping with Infidelity Relationship recovery from the destructiveness of infidelity.*


----------



## sidney2718

Pluto2 said:


> Despite what you may (or may not think), I don't believe Zanne should be stoned in a public square. What I would like to see happen more than anything else if for her to 1) stop hurting the people in her life, 2) take responsibility.
> 
> Any our travels into Z's problems is why I do not *believe* active cheaters are helpful contributors. They lie, they blameshift and they hurt people. If acknowledging a "helpful" contribution, you are aiding and abetting in their deceit. I do not expect others to share my view. Just putting it out there.


I agree about Zanne. But as for "active cheaters", they need help too. They need to be guided into stopping their affair, how to accept the responsibility in what they've done, and how not to blameshift.

But I also have to point out that not all cheaters do this. Some come here contrite, accepting the blame, and filled with remorse. They want help in regaining their marriage. We need to help them too.


----------



## soulpotato

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Yes, I think he felt alone too. I think he also struggled in his own way to make things work, but I think pre infidelity, we wanted different things from our relationship. I wanted honesty and emotional intimacy, he just wanted to ignore emotional issues and dealt with them in a passive-aggressive way. It's strange though because he was really searching for emotional intimacy himself, (he now knows) but was looking in completely the wrong place.


That's interesting, it was sort of reversed in my case. My partner wanted to ignore and sweep aside emotional issues and be passive-aggressive, and I was the one looking for emotional intimacy and trying to tell her my honest feelings/thoughts. 

He sounds like he has intimacy issues. Has he specifically worked on those in his therapy? (That's the funny thing. Sometimes we really want to find something but we don't know where to find it or even what it looks like. That's something I'm definitely familiar with.)



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I was probably too intense about it for him to deal with, hence his escape into rescuing the damsel in distress to feed that emotional intimacy that he believed he couldn't get from our relationship. He says now that it was because his mother was a very dominant and aggressive woman and he just transferred his emotional separation from her onto our relationship.


More like he has a lot of unresolved issues and damage to deal with, and he just doesn't know how to handle _real_ intimacy and connection with you. Because what he's seeking (and getting) from his APs isn't real intimacy or emotional connection. It's escape, it's feeding a sickness, it's fantasy, it's unhealthy coping, and quite possibly a form of addiction. 

Have you ever seen this site (I think both of you should maybe take a look at it):

Recovery Nation - Home




BetrayedAgain7 said:


> He went for about eight months, but I'm thinking he probably needs some more, although I believe the crucible of our marriage is helping him in many ways.


Oh definitely he needs more. But yes, I can imagine your marriage could make him a better man.  I know that while there were a lot of problems in my relationship with my partner, she also helped put me back together again and I am better for having met her. I have no idea where I would be now if not for that. A pretty bad place, I think.



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> This gets difficult because I have to be strong then and it's a huge balancing act. On the one hand I have to be accountable to my own needs and boundaries, but yet still let him feel his way towards his own recovery by being able to be himself, allowing him the space to grow towards health. He fails sometimes and I also know for a fact I do in relation to my own needs, but we seem to be humming along with some hiccups along the way.


I hope that he can find it in himself to be strong for you, too. You are so very aware and insightful, so perceptive. He's fortunate to have you with him! I am sure you have helped him in that way, too - helping him to see himself and reflect on that. 



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> He has a bad case of KISA and this is what led to these EA's. They start off as what he sees as being relatively harmless, but gradually it grows. He is getting it. Seeing for himself that his need for external validation and poor boundaries is what starts the motor of his KISA running and the feeding of it is continued by the women that he just had to advise and rescue.


I bet the underground terrain beneath his KISA-ness is fairly complex. A snarl of issues. I wonder if his therapist has explored where it might have originated, everything it might be feeding, and why it has developed the way it has. I think the need for external validation is one of the hardest things to deal with, and heal. I'm actually going to ask my therapist about this on Saturday. I want to know more about how one goes about generating sufficient internal validation so as not to be at risk. (Of course the boundary issue is woven into that.)



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Yes, you are absolutely right it is completely essential. The betrayal itself was hard of course, but it's the continual unremitting nature of the work that we each have to do post infidelity that takes most of the emotional energy.


It is definitely exhausting. You're working on so many fronts at once.



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Yes this is true also, I know that I have the same difficulty as your partner did, I know exactly where she is coming from. I mean I want to R obviously, but sometimes, particularly when I'm tired or I think one of our boundaries has been crossed in some way, then I can get quite resentful and its hard to stop the bitterness creeping in at those times. I really do try and stay mindful though and listen to where he's at.


I think you have a huge heart. And that he definitely has to work on those boundaries so that he can police them on his own and not have you on double-duty there. Do you feel he is doing the work on himself that he needs to do?



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> As you pointed out to be vulnerable to the one who betrayed you is extremely hard and sometimes I feel it too difficult, but I guess I believe in his inherent goodness and I do see that in him. The trust is not in him anymore, it has to be in my own inner guidance and belief that to keep on this path, means something bigger and better than the ashes of our previous relationship is on it's way.


I imagine that just makes it more difficult and heartbreaking. That you can see the goodness in him, and yet he still does these things. There's a page on that site link (recovery nation) that addresses that. People can be inherently good and yet still be broken in ways that break the people they love. I hope for healing for both of you, and that your rebuilding continues to go smoothly and grow in strength. 

(Thank you for the link to your story - I read it.)



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> He does everything I ask. Is ready to talk when I want to talk, going over the same things if that is what I need to do. He never blames me in anyway for his infidelity, never justifies what he did at all, saying he caused it by his own f'ked uppedness. (In his words)


Hmm, sounds like he is doing what he needs to for that part of R, so that's good. 



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I know all his passwords to everything. He willingly hands over his phone anytime I ask for it. I know where he is every minute of every day. He tells me he loves me all the time. He's read NMMNG, MMSLP and anything else I ask him to read. He's happy to go back to counselling if I should ask it of him.


Wow, he really does sound like he's totally on-board. I'm torn about his therapy. One one hand, 8 months doesn't sound like long enough to deal with the affairs and with his fundamental issues. On the other, if he really has what he needs, there's no sense in him going back more often than every few months for a "check-up". So he doesn't feel he needs any more therapy?



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> So he does a lot. But doing a lot doesn't stop the damage to the absolute trust I had in him. I don't know when or if ever that can come back.


There is that. You might not ever be able to trust him that much again. And that's okay. That's one of the consequences of betrayal.



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I think that's what I miss most of all. The freedom that I had before in believing that no matter what, he would have my back and never do anything that could hurt me or cause that trust to die. But it did die.


 I'm so sorry. Not only for you, but for the person who was my own betrayed partner, too.



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Whether a new trust can grow from the ashes of the old remains to be seen.


I hope that if it happens, he never betrays it again.



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Thank you for your response Soul Potato, you come across as a very sensitive and loving person. A pleasure chatting to you!


You're welcome. Thank you! I appreciate your responses and your feedback. Aww! Thank you, that's so sweet of you to say.  You're so nice! I hope to see you around TAM more often. I don't recall seeing you post to the Reconciliation thread. You should come over sometime!

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html


----------



## Paladin

I have been debating chiming in on this train wreck, and despite my better judgement, decided to do so. I have read every single post in this thread (minus whatever was deleted) and noticed some familiar patterns.

There seems to be an assumption that infidelity involves a premeditated and conscious choice to hurt someone, or multiple someones, and while it is certainly true in some cases (I don't know enough about zenne to make an assessment) it is not true in all cases. Sometimes a person can only perceive a very limited set of choices, and only be left with toxic ones.

I have a hard time believing that over a two year span of reading this forum zenne could still think that she is somehow shielding anyone from pain by continuing to lie about her affair. That being said, there are examples in life, addiction for instance, in which a persons brain is simply malfunctioning and preventing them from seeing things for what they really are. Even when others around them try their best to help.

There are those here who have taken JLD to task for trying a different approach with zenne, while I understand, and agree for the most part with the criticism levied against her, I want to point out that 2 years of 2x4ing zenne has had no meaningful impact on her situation, and perhaps a different approach is a better option. 

Justifying/coddling is certainly not a good way to go, as it can serve to enable the toxic behavior, so maybe just ignoring zenne until she actually acts to change the situation could be an option? I typically don't like that approach when it comes to diseases like addiction, because I believe that for some people "rock bottom" is below what is humanely sustainable, but for infidelity, especially in a case like zennes, letting her hit rock bottom without enabling her may be a solid approach. I feel her problems are beyond the scope of this forum to resolve and she should seek counseling to address her current mental health issues.

The other thing that I noticed, and this also seems to be a common line of thinking here on TAM, is that any attempt made to examine the pathology of the breakdown leading up to the ea/pa is labeled as "justifying or excusing" said ea/pa even if the person attempting to examine the pathology sates that the choice to cope with the dysfunction of the marriage by cheating is solely on them. If marriage support is the aim of the forum, room should be made for examining the problems in the relationship without attempting to occupy the moral high ground or passing judgement.

A few other common and bothersome generalizations popped up too, like the man should lead the marriage, stay at home anythings are not actually "working," co-equal relationships don't work, external validation is bad, being the breadwinner absolves one from all other marital responsibilities, the only motivation for a female cheater is getting some "strange," and the one that bugs me the most "even though you two say things are good between you now, you are just saying that to justify your choice to R" or any other form of a person trying to invalidate someone else.

There were many more moderate and balanced voices here when I first joined up. It is shocking to me that people like Beowulf get perma banned, while others that frequently attack, belittle, insult, or bully others just get more adoring fans. I often see comments about how "few" reconciled/reconciling couples post here, and how that is an indicator of success vs failure when it comes to coping with infidelity, but I think a closer look at the situation reveals that those couples simply get tired of constantly having their choices and marriages invalidated by people who did not even attempt R, and these couples simply choose to move on with their lives.


----------



## EI

:iagree:

Excellent post, Paladin.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

soulpotato said:


> He sounds like he has intimacy issues. Has he specifically worked on those in his therapy? (That's the funny thing. Sometimes we really want to find something but we don't know where to find it or even what it looks like. That's something I'm definitely familiar with.)
> 
> I bet the underground terrain beneath his KISA-ness is fairly complex. A snarl of issues. I wonder if his therapist has explored where it might have originated, everything it might be feeding, and why it has developed the way it has. I think the need for external validation is one of the hardest things to deal with, and heal. I'm actually going to ask my therapist about this on Saturday. I want to know more about how one goes about generating sufficient internal validation so as not to be at risk. (Of course the boundary issue is woven into that.)]
> 
> Do you feel he is doing the work on himself that he needs to do?


He does have intimacy issues. I feel for him because deep down he is a very passionate person and his faltering ability to be intimate on the level that he needs, really feeds into his KISA and drives it to a great extent I think. 

He tells me that he is fearful of letting go because he has no idea what is underneath his deeply buried and emotionally intimate feelings. He doesn't have the emotional freedom to be himself as he really is. 

I see it, but I'm trapped too on the other side of the brick wall. He has to do the work. I just tell him when aspects of his emotional withdrawal affect me.

We were only discussing the addictive factor yesterday funnily enough, he's addicted to the high of the validation he gets from his KISA complex.


Thank you for the link to recovery nation. We will look at it together. 

He's in two minds about more therapy, but is willing to go if I feel like he should. I'm reluctant to ask though, because I don't want to be his mother and try and "fix" him.



soulpotato said:


> You're welcome. Thank you! I appreciate your responses and your feedback. Aww! Thank you, that's so sweet of you to say.  You're so nice! I hope to see you around TAM more often. I don't recall seeing you post to the Reconciliation thread. You should come over sometime!
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html


Thank you!


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> Do you not think she is going to get what is coming to her? Do you not think there will be sufficient punishment for a woman who already has not lived the easiest life?
> 
> Is that what is really bothering everyone? That Zanne will not suffer enough?


She could have lived an easier life if she chose to put some of the effort she uses to lie and cheat and sneak into say, getting a job.

Are you at all concerned for the people that are currently suffering because of her choices, and the people that will suffer when they find out what she's been up to? 

You put quite a bit of effort into making up excuses for her poor behavior and destructive choices.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> No, I don't work. Or not for pay. I have been a SAHM for 19 years.
> 
> I have a teaching degree, though I do not think there are many openings in our area.
> 
> Dh has always worked. It does give him a lot of power in the marriage.


Another thing that's helped keep you safe in marriage, not being in a workplace with co-worker men filling your needs all day. Not just sitting on your hubby's lap, but lack of opportunities as well.


----------



## Mr. Dee

Paladin said:


> ...I often see comments about how "few" reconciled/reconciling couples post here, and how that is an indicator of success vs failure when it comes to coping with infidelity, but I think a closer look at the situation reveals that those couples simply get tired of constantly having their choices and marriages invalidated by people who did not even attempt R, and these couples simply choose to move on with their lives.


I agree with most of your insights. Well said. Interesting view about couples in R. For myself I know that the reason my BW wife stopped participating in this type of forum is unique (I outlined the basics elsewhere), yet the way she was treated by a (non CWI) forum was still the factor which made her give up on forums in general. Only, "being invalidated" took the form of the admins dismissing the truth of her situation, not the value of her choice to R. With those differences, I still think your theory applies. If the group can't be generous enough to widen their "my way or the highway" approach, then alternate approaches don't stay in the room, so to speak.


----------



## russell28

Paladin said:


> I have been debating chiming in on this train wreck, and despite my better judgement, decided to do so. I have read every single post in this thread (minus whatever was deleted) and noticed some familiar patterns.
> 
> There seems to be an assumption that infidelity involves a premeditated and conscious choice to hurt someone, or multiple someones, and while it is certainly true in some cases (I don't know enough about zenne to make an assessment) it is not true in all cases. Sometimes a person can only perceive a very limited set of choices, and only be left with toxic ones.
> 
> I have a hard time believing that over a two year span of reading this forum zenne could still think that she is somehow shielding anyone from pain by continuing to lie about her affair. That being said, there are examples in life, addiction for instance, in which a persons brain is simply malfunctioning and preventing them from seeing things for what they really are. Even when others around them try their best to help.
> 
> There are those here who have taken JLD to task for trying a different approach with zenne, while I understand, and agree for the most part with the criticism levied against her, I want to point out that 2 years of 2x4ing zenne has had no meaningful impact on her situation, and perhaps a different approach is a better option.
> 
> Justifying/coddling is certainly not a good way to go, as it can serve to enable the toxic behavior, so maybe just ignoring zenne until she actually acts to change the situation could be an option? I typically don't like that approach when it comes to diseases like addiction, because I believe that for some people "rock bottom" is below what is humanely sustainable, but for infidelity, especially in a case like zennes, letting her hit rock bottom without enabling her may be a solid approach. I feel her problems are beyond the scope of this forum to resolve and she should seek counseling to address her current mental health issues.
> 
> The other thing that I noticed, and this also seems to be a common line of thinking here on TAM, is that any attempt made to examine the pathology of the breakdown leading up to the ea/pa is labeled as "justifying or excusing" said ea/pa even if the person attempting to examine the pathology sates that the choice to cope with the dysfunction of the marriage by cheating is solely on them. If marriage support is the aim of the forum, room should be made for examining the problems in the relationship without attempting to occupy the moral high ground or passing judgement.
> 
> A few other common and bothersome generalizations popped up too, like the man should lead the marriage, stay at home anythings are not actually "working," co-equal relationships don't work, external validation is bad, being the breadwinner absolves one from all other marital responsibilities, the only motivation for a female cheater is getting some "strange," and the one that bugs me the most "even though you two say things are good between you now, you are just saying that to justify your choice to R" or any other form of a person trying to invalidate someone else.
> 
> There were many more moderate and balanced voices here when I first joined up. It is shocking to me that people like Beowulf get perma banned, while others that frequently attack, belittle, insult, or bully others just get more adoring fans. I often see comments about how "few" reconciled/reconciling couples post here, and how that is an indicator of success vs failure when it comes to coping with infidelity, but I think a closer look at the situation reveals that those couples simply get tired of constantly having their choices and marriages invalidated by people who did not even attempt R, and these couples simply choose to move on with their lives.


This board is full of all sorts of folks, not just couples in R. I'm one of those people in R that has been told I should have divorced, I've been asked to look at myself for why I made my wife cheat (even from folks that have no idea about my story, they just read a 'men make women cheat' article). That particular couple hasn't even suffered infidelity and they both post here to incite and to make themselves feel good about not cheating on each other. I agree, some of the best posters are gone, mostly because they eventually get tired of the bull.. 

So no, I don't want to hear from jld or her husband about what I'm doing wrong in my relationship or how I should have avoided cheating like they did. 

After they're finished here, do they head over to the cancer forums and tell all those folks how they both avoided getting cancer by eating right? Then head over to the abuse victims forums and ask what they did to deserve to be abused, how they were never abused because they live life the right way?

I think that might be what chases the good posters away, the jld and Dug's more than the Zannes...


----------



## russell28

Mr. Dee said:


> I agree with most of your insights. Well said. Interesting view about couples in R. For myself I know that the reason my BW wife stopped participating in this type of forum is unique (I outlined the basics elsewhere), yet the way she was treated by a (non CWI) forum was still the factor which made her give up on forums in general. Only, "being invalidated" took the form of the admins dismissing the truth of her situation, not the value of her choice to R. With those differences, I still think your theory applies. If the group can't be generous enough to widen their "my way or the highway" approach, then alternate approaches don't stay in the room, so to speak.


Unless my way or the highway is 'cheating is bad and not cheating is good' Sometimes there really is only one way. We aren't going to support cheating because someone is cool with it, and we don't want to be stubborn and not open minded.

Some things just won't be tolerated here, because it triggers the individuals involved in this forum. Blame shifting is one of those things most of us are familiar with, so when we see it... boom, it is famiiar to us, and we want to point it out to anyone that might not be noticing it. WS or BS. A WS can't heal themselves as long as they are doing it, and as shown with Zanne, we can't always get through with the 2x4.. but that doesn't mean we drop the 2x4 and give in and start to support her. We also can't ignore her, because of the trigger thing I mentioned above. We feel the need to protect her spouse from her abuse, because we would have liked someone to have our backs while we were being cheated on.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> She could have lived an easier life if she chose to put some of the effort she uses to lie and cheat and sneak into say, getting a job.
> 
> Are you at all concerned for the people that are currently suffering because of her choices, and the people that will suffer when they find out what she's been up to?
> 
> You put quite a bit of effort into making up excuses for her poor behavior and destructive choices.



I think Zanne has a weakness in her character that allowed the cheating to happen. Different people have different weaknesses. 

I think a closed mind and defensive nature are also character weaknesses, Russell.

Zanne is losing the respect of people around her, and will even more so when it is all found out. At this point, I do not think she cares. Whatever false love she is getting from the OM feels like more than whatever she is getting from her husband. That husband is certainly not inspiring her respect.

If her children hate her for the rest of their lives, that will be a big punishment. They may just eventually look at the situation and see a poor woman with a weakness who was used by a man with more means than she had. I think her poverty is being overlooked here, but I believe it to be a factor.

Dug thinks she is depressed. I think people in depression are unlikely to make the wisest decisions. They need compassion and support, as well as being shown the consequences of their choices.

But I think they need to be shown this in love, not out of condemnation. We have to really care about Zanne for her to be able to hear us. People's anger and judgment is unlikely to have much effect on getting her onto a healthier path.

I think men have more power in general than women. This is not always true, and many BHs here clearly do not feel they have any power with women. I hold people with more power responsible for what happens. I think Zanne will pay plenty for the choices she has made.

My dad cheated on my mom. He was a jerk in many ways, and that certainly did not help him in my eyes. 

But as I have spent more time on TAM, I am understanding him a bit better. I think some men cannot accept to go without sex. My parents were in their early 80s, and my dad was not going to accept my mom's decision to stop having sex. So he went and found another woman who would give it to him.

Funny, to me, blaming her did not even enter my mind. She was nothing to me, just a tiny footnote at the end of his life. He made me mad, though. I was mad at him for hurting my mom and for having such a weak character. I have such high standards for men, and he hardly met them. A very selfish, immature man. 

But there are many far worse, like the guys who leave their families or who do not support them. I have certainly warned my daughter about them. But she is smart and strong and is not going to be economically dependent on a man. I think she will be safe.


----------



## Mr. Dee

russell28 said:


> Unless my way or the highway is 'cheating is bad and not cheating is good' Sometimes there really is only one way. We aren't going to support cheating because someone is cool with it...


Totally agree, russell28. I was discussing what paladin was referring to, namely the "I divorced! I would never be so weak as to R! thus couples in R are wrong!" phenomenon.


----------



## jld

Mr. Dee said:


> Totally agree, russell28. I was discussing what paladin was referring to, namely the "I divorced! I would never be so weak as to R! thus couples in R are wrong!" phenomenon.


I think true reconciliation would take a lot of strength.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> I think a closed mind and defensive nature are also character weaknesses, Russell.
> 
> .


I think this is pretty weak. Because I don't agree with you doesn't make me closed minded. It makes me have an opinion that isn't aligned with yours. 

Do you believe that anyone that doesn't agree with you is weak?

It seems your issues about men stem from your dad cheating. You might want to get in therapy and discuss with a pro. Mention the problem where you need to lurk on coping with infidelity forums and champion cheaters that are women and bash cheaters that are men.

Dug thinking she is depressed isn't impressing me, unless Dug has a PHD and has been seeing her regularly.

You are dependant on Dug for finances, that's what your daughter is learning by watching you. Be careful to not warn her too much about 'bad' men. Let her find a man that treats her good, and loves and cherishes her regardless of his finances, and teach her to be independent, but not because it frees her from needing a man to support her, but just because she'll be able to take care of herself. Leave out the 'bad man' stuff. Some advice from a parent with grown children.


Edit: As far as Zanne, all she wants is validation. She doesn't want to learn.. and you validate her choices for her. You are beyond just nice, you are helping her justify her reasons.


----------



## russell28

jld said:


> I think true reconciliation would take a lot of strength.


I can verify this for you. It does.


----------



## staystrong

Mr. Dee said:


> Totally agree, russell28. I was discussing what paladin was referring to, namely the "I divorced! I would never be so weak as to R! thus couples in R are wrong!" phenomenon.


There are also BS's who want to R but really should be D'ing. They are in their own fog but "Divorce her, she's no good" group is not productive. The better posters are able to predict exactly what the WS is doing and hopes the BS catches on. Some do, some are eaten alive by a WS.

The best thing TAM is good for is trying to get a BS to gain self-respect through the ****storm and behave in a way that is honorable. There is excellent support for that. But there's also a very hard edge here and people in crisis can take that edge into their relationships and make them worse. It's good to be angry and that anger has to be channelled. Getting nasty with WS's should be in limited doses, otherwise you run the risk of getting sucked further into their psychodrama.


----------



## staystrong

russell28 said:


> I think this is pretty weak. Because I don't agree with you doesn't make me closed minded. It makes me have an opinion that isn't aligned with yours.
> 
> Do you believe that anyone that doesn't agree with you is weak?
> 
> It seems your issues about men stem from your dad cheating. You might want to get in therapy and discuss with a pro. Mention the problem where you need to lurk on coping with infidelity forums and champion cheaters that are women and bash cheaters that are men.
> 
> Dug thinking she is depressed isn't impressing me, unless Dug has a PHD and has been seeing her regularly.
> 
> You are dependant on Dug for finances, that's what your daughter is learning by watching you. Be careful to not warn her too much about 'bad' men. Let her find a man that treats her good, and loves and cherishes her regardless of his finances, and teach her to be independent, but not because it frees her from needing a man to support her, but just because she'll be able to take care of herself. Leave out the 'bad man' stuff. Some advice from a parent with grown children.
> 
> 
> Edit: As far as Zanne, all she wants is validation. She doesn't want to learn.. and you validate her choices for her. You are beyond just nice, you are helping her justify her reasons.


:iagree:

(Except I think Zanne's marriage may really be "over" and that she may be depressed on top of handling her situation very coldly and calculatingly.)


----------



## jld

My issues with men are heavily influenced by the way my dad treated women, period. I grew up in defense mode. The cheating certainly did not help.

But after spending time here, I am starting to feel more compassion for him. He probably did the best he could with what he had to work with, namely his own character and personality and his environment. He had needs, too, that my mom clearly was not only not fulfilling, but had no interest in fulfilling. And she has her own story, too.

I think the amount of compassion we can show to people is a great measure of our own strength, Russell. And part of compassion is pointing out what the consequences of an unhealthy path may be.


----------



## Mr. Dee

staystrong said:


> The best thing TAM is good for is trying to get a BS to gain self-respect through the ****storm and behave in a way that is honorable...Getting nasty with WS's should be in limited doses, otherwise you run the risk of getting sucked further into their psychodrama.


That sounds unfortunately like our earlier reference "couples in R are weak!", paraphrased to, "BS in R need to grow a pair, for self-respect!". If it was "trying to get *WS* to behave in a way that is honorable", I'd be happier. 

I don't think my wife was using forums to regain self respect and behave in a way that is honorable. She had all that, always. It was me who did not. I think she just wanted to visit others who knew what it was like for her. (She never did talk to anyone in real life about what I did, or what xAP did to her/us after).

My wife could be as nasty to me as she is capable of and it still isn't what I deserve for what I did to her/us.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> My issues with men are heavily influenced by the way my dad treated women, period. I grew up in defense mode. The cheating certainly did not help.
> 
> But after spending time here, I am starting to feel more compassion for him. He probably did the best he could with what he had to work with, namely his own character and personality and his environment. He had needs, too, that my mom clearly was not only not fulfilling, but had no interest in fulfilling. And she has her own story, too.
> 
> I think the amount of compassion we can show to people is a great measure of our own strength, Russell. And part of compassion is pointing out what the consequences of an unhealthy path may be.


What do you mean she has her own story? (your mom)

In general, I don't have much compassion for people who cheat and wreck their families. Rarely can it be shown that someone was really "suffering" in a relationship. Cheaters love to get sympathy to relieve their guilt.. basically, if other people say "These things happen" and don't stand up or get involved, they feel re-affirmed or vindicated. That's AWFUL. I think that's why you may have trouble with some of the straight shooters here, jld. They don't let up, they call it like it is, because otherwise the forces of cake-eating will get their way. It's tough love. It does not help to support a cheater in their poor decisions. 

I do have some compassion for Zanne because her story is different than most. I just think she's conniving for trying to get alimony and bring out the OM later like he's someone new. That turns my stomach and shows her lack of character.


----------



## staystrong

Mr. Dee said:


> That sounds unfortunately like our earlier reference "couples in R are weak!", paraphrased to, "BS in R need to grow a pair, for self-respect!". If it was "trying to get *WS* to behave in a way that is honorable", I'd be happier.
> 
> I don't think my wife was using forums to regain self respect and behave in a way that is honorable. She had all that, always. It was me who did not. I think she just wanted to visit others who knew what it was like for her. (She never did talk to anyone in real life about what I did, or what xAP did to her/us after).
> 
> My wife could be as nasty to me as she is capable of and it still isn't what I deserve for what I did to her/us.


I see your point. I was talking more about when BS are in limbo and not in R or D, and where everything is a big mess.

Obviously there's a big focus on accountability placed here on TAM, and earned forgiveness versus rugsweeping. I think WS's are treated very well if they show remorse, and at the same time are not insulted.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> What do you mean she has her own story? (your mom)
> 
> In general, I don't have much compassion for people who cheat and wreck their families. Rarely can it be shown that someone was really "suffering" in a relationship. Cheaters love to get sympathy to relieve their guilt.. basically, if other people say "These things happen" and don't stand up or get involved, they feel re-affirmed or vindicated. That's AWFUL. I think that's why you may have trouble with some of the straight shooters here, jld. They don't let up, they call it like it is, because otherwise the forces of cake-eating will get their way. It's tough love. It does not help to support a cheater in their poor decisions.
> 
> I do have some compassion for Zanne because her story is different than most. I just think she's conniving for trying to get alimony and bring out the OM later like he's someone new. That turns my stomach and shows her lack of character.


My mom felt used by my dad. She did not feel loved and cherished. She had tons of resentment. (No, she was not a cheater, not at all, if that is what you were really asking. Not in her character.)

And she was selfish in her own way. She knew he needed sex, and put her desire to stop ahead of his desire to continue. She was not interested in trying to learn about other ways to satisfy him. And who knows, maybe he would only accept intercourse. He was very selfish.

We know a lot more nowadays than people of my parents generation (they were born in the 1920s). We understand that people have needs, and most will not go forever without getting them met, even if illegitimately.

The more understanding and compassion I can feel for my parents, the easier it is to forgive them. And Dug's love for me is a huge part of my own healing.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> I do have some compassion for Zanne because her story is different than most. I just think she's conniving for trying to get alimony and bring out the OM later like he's someone new. That turns my stomach and shows her lack of character.


She said she is not asking for it. No alimony, no assets, no car, no license, and few employment prospects would make leaving difficult. 

Not taking the opportunity for the job interview did not help her.

When her desire to be free of her marriage is strong enough, and her realization that the OM does not really love her is clear, she will leave. It is the crumbs he is giving her that keep her holding on, and her depression, if Dug is correct.


----------



## staystrong

staystrong said:


> What do you mean she has her own story? (your mom)
> 
> In general, I don't have much compassion for people who cheat and wreck their families. Rarely can it be shown that someone was really "suffering" in a relationship. Cheaters love to get sympathy to relieve their guilt.. basically, if other people say "These things happen" and don't stand up or get involved, they feel re-affirmed or vindicated. That's AWFUL. I think that's why you may have trouble with some of the straight shooters here, jld. They don't let up, they call it like it is, because otherwise the forces of cake-eating will get their way. It's tough love. It does not help to support a cheater in their poor decisions.
> 
> I do have some compassion for Zanne because her story is different than most. I just think she's conniving for trying to get alimony and bring out the OM later like he's someone new. That turns my stomach and shows her lack of character.


I have to quote my own post. 

I was extremely disappointed in my XW's family for not challenging her more. They were disappointed, but it's like they didn't know what to do with her. Maybe they were afraid to get in the middle, but they needed to show some anger at her for being such a fool. They didn't have all the facts (my fault) and they certainly don't have the knowledge a TAM dweller does. I don't know why some families cave in -- shouldn't they be able to tell that someone is not behaving responsibly or rationally? Can't they tell they are being manipulated and intervention is needed? Enabling a cheater is the worst thing you can do. Because usually too much damage is done by the time they snap out of it.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> I have to quote my own post.
> 
> I was extremely disappointed in my XW's family for not challenging her more. They were disappointed, but it's like they didn't know what to do with her. Maybe they were afraid to get in the middle, but they needed to show some anger at her for being such a fool. They didn't have all the facts (my fault) and they certainly don't have the knowledge a TAM dweller does. I don't know why some families cave in -- shouldn't they be able to tell that someone is not behaving responsibly or rationally? Can't they tell they are being manipulated and intervention is needed? Enabling a cheater is the worst thing you can do. Because usually too much damage is done by the time they snap out of it.


But you were her AP in her first marriage, right? Do you really think they feel sympathy for you?

It could be a French thing, too. Dug's brother left his wife five years ago. Dug said he thinks his parents felt great shame, but did not say anything to his brother, that we know of. 

Very cowardly, I agree. He helps them around the farm, and maybe they did not want to lose that.


----------



## Mr. Dee

This is starting to feel like I'm reading private messages between people, not a thread on a forum. Or like I'm listening in at the middle of a conversation. Or even sitting with people who speak among themselves in a foreign language. 

I know, I'm new, but clearly you guys all know each other. And maybe not just on CWI. References to other members by name with no explanation (are they members? or just family members?); somebody casually reminding someone else about the circumstances of the other's marriage!; heck, even the part where people know which users are having affairs with which other ones (on CWI!!!!! What????). Still another apparently knows a poster's non-disclosed circumstances well enough to give background on them. It makes this feel more like a private club.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Mr. Dee said:


> This is starting to feel like I'm reading private messages between people, not a thread on a forum. Or like I'm listening in at the middle of a conversation. Or even sitting with people who speak among themselves in a foreign language.
> 
> I know, I'm new, but clearly you guys all know each other. And maybe not just on CWI. References to other members by name with no explanation (are they members? or just family members?); somebody casually reminding someone else about the circumstances of the other's marriage!; heck, even the part where people know which users are having affairs with which other ones (on CWI!!!!! What????). Still another apparently knows a poster's non-disclosed circumstances well enough to give background on them. It makes this feel more like a private club.


To put your mind at ease: while some may know each other off the board, the majority is referencing things posted in various locations on here. Some posts may get deleted, but the memory remains. It took me a bit to get things figured out when I joined. But if you gave a question about a reference, ask. Many would be happy to help you figure it out.


----------



## Mr. Dee

Maricha75 said:


> To put your mind at ease: while some may know each other off the board, the majority is referencing things posted in various locations on here. Some posts may get deleted, but the memory remains. It took me a bit to get things figured out when I joined. But if you gave a question about a reference, ask. Many would be happy to help you figure it out.


Well I admit to being especially curious how two people seem to have agreed to become affair partners while visiting a CWI site ... and more than that, not even kept it a secret from the members who were using the site to legitimately Cope. How the heck did THAT ever become group knowledge? Did they come back and brag about it, or what? Really, what???


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Mr. Dee said:


> Well I admit to being especially curious how two people seem to have agreed to become affair partners while visiting a CWI site ... and more than that, not even kept it a secret from the members who were using the site to legitimately Cope. How the heck did THAT ever become group knowledge? Did they come back and brag about it, or what? Really, what???


A lot of things happen in PM. In the case of Zanne, iirc, she came out and told the board about it in her thread. The OM was/is a lurker.

Mr. Dee, you seem to focus solely on CWI, but many of those participants frequent other sections of TAM... including the Sex in Marriage section. 

How have others come out? Spouses have outed members after seeing PMs and emails off the board. Zanne is the only one I am aware of who told the board she is actively cheating and shows no remorse for her actions. Others apologized before being banned. And others... well, depending on the evidence, some got temporary bans, some got permanent. And some still haven't been fully revealed. But, no, most are not flaunting it on the board. As with any case with cheating, they want to keep it hidden for as long as possible.


----------



## karole

Did Zanne get a permanent ban or a temp ban?


----------



## Maricha75

No idea, karole. When I was talking about permanent, I meant HopelesslyJaded and her AP from here. They're ones I know of for certain.

I can't speak for any of those currently banned for such behavior. I do hope that AP's are fully discovered and banned, too, if they have not yet been recipients of the ban hammer, though!


----------



## Philat

jld said:


> But you were her AP in her first marriage, right? Do you really think they feel sympathy for you?


Yep. Staystrong, your recent posting history indicates that you have forgotten this little fact.


----------



## staystrong

Philat said:


> Yep. Staystrong, your recent posting history indicates that you have forgotten this little fact.


Not at all. I keep it in mind, but it is not as cut and dried as me being an OM and now there's a new OM. There are major differences to the circumstances and the outcomes.


----------



## Philat

staystrong said:


> Not at all. I keep it in mind, but it is not as cut and dried as me being an OM and now there's a new OM. There are major differences to the circumstances and the outcomes.


OK, I respect you enough to take your word for this.


----------



## vellocet

staystrong said:


> Not at all. I keep it in mind, but it is not as cut and dried as me being an OM and now there's a new OM. There are major differences to the circumstances and the outcomes.


Oh, you were an OM? NOW I understand how you might support someone else calling a BS "bitter" The OM side of you just must be more opinionated than the BS side.


----------



## staystrong

Philat said:


> OK, I respect you enough to take your word for this.


Thanks, I appreciate that.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



vellocet said:


> Oh, you were an OM? NOW I understand how you might support someone else calling a BS "bitter" The OM side of you just must be more opinionated than the BS side.


Eh, not necessarily, vell. Some are quite bitter. I have seen that, myself. Not just OM/OW notice these things. Even those who were betrayed can see the bitterness in some.


----------



## staystrong

vellocet said:


> Oh, you were an OM? NOW I understand how you might support someone else calling a BS "bitter" The OM side of you just must be more opinionated than the BS side.


No, man, I am as bitter as they come. In my own world. 

I suppose I just don't show it in my posts as much as it used to. I agree with almost everything you, Healer, Russell and others are saying from an argumentative standpoint. I feel like more of an observer in this.


----------



## Healer

Maricha75 said:


> Eh, not necessarily, vell. Some are quite bitter. I have seen that, myself. Not just OM/OW notice these things. Even those who were betrayed can see the bitterness in some.


If there's any reason to be bitter - it would be because you were stabbed in the back and gutted by the one person you were supposed to trust above all, no? I mean if that isn't grounds for bitterness, what is?

I think in general it eases over time, but it does take time, and everyone gets over it (or not) on their own clock.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Healer said:


> If there's any reason to be bitter - it would be because you were stabbed in the back and gutted by the one person you were supposed to trust above all, no? I mean if that isn't grounds for bitterness, what is?
> 
> I think in general it eases over time, but it does take time, and everyone gets over it (or not) on their own clock.


Absolutely, there is reason to be bitter. But that bitterness is not license to lash out at everyone... this includes, but is not limited to the wayward spouses who come here looking for help.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> But you were her AP in her first marriage, right? Do you really think they feel sympathy for you?
> 
> It could be a French thing, too. Dug's brother left his wife five years ago. Dug said he thinks his parents felt great shame, but did not say anything to his brother, that we know of.
> 
> Very cowardly, I agree. He helps them around the farm, and maybe they did not want to lose that.


Just from a human perspective - It would have meant so much to me if they had just called and asked how I was doing. That's all. Why should I have to go to them? I thought they'd be as outraged as I was. Of course they were disappointed and upset. Concerned. Really, I just wanted them to say early on "We know she's being a fool but there's nothing we can do about it. We're here to support you however we can." I mean, jesus, eight years together, family together, they loved me and I'm alone in this country with no family or friends. I was not asking them to get in the middle, but just talk to me and have a shoulder to cry on if I needed it. Her mom was there for me, but I was expecting a bigger response and I didn't get it. I'm just saying it hurt a lot. And I don't think it's because I was the OM in her first divorce. Maybe they did not give H1 support, either, I don't know. But he had family there and he is French. I had no one.. and when I say no one, I mean absolutely no one. Major PTSD. So if that sounds self-pitying, yeah I guess it is/was.


----------



## Healer

Maricha75 said:


> Absolutely, there is reason to be bitter. But that bitterness is not license to lash out at everyone... this includes, but is not limited to the wayward spouses who come here looking for help.


Unless of course they blameshift, show no remorse and justify their affair.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Healer said:


> Unless of course they blameshift, show no remorse and justify their affair.


And the ones who are not doing this, but are accused of it anyway? No, it still gives no license to do it. You can use the 2x4 without adding nails to it.


----------



## Paladin

staystrong said:


> Just from a human perspective - It would have meant so much to me if they had just called and asked how I was doing. That's all. Why should I have to go to them? I thought they'd be as outraged as I was. Of course they were disappointed and upset. Concerned. Really, I just wanted them to say early on "We know she's being a fool but there's nothing we can do about it. We're here to support you however we can." I mean, jesus, eight years together, family together, they loved me and I'm alone in this country with no family or friends. I was not asking them to get in the middle, but just talk to me and have a shoulder to cry on if I needed it. Her mom was there for me, but I was expecting a bigger response and I didn't get it. I'm just saying it hurt a lot. And I don't think it's because I was the OM in her first divorce. Maybe they did not give H1 support, either, I don't know. But he had family there and he is French. I had no one.. and when I say no one, I mean absolutely no one. Major PTSD. So if that sounds self-pitying, yeah I guess it is/was.



My counselor and I discussed this issue at length about my in-laws. The conclusion was pretty simple when viewed through the lenses of healing, passage of time, and reconciliation (in our case that is). My in-laws have a tough time facing certain issues (as we all do) and one of those issues was the inability to initially accept the fact that their first born daughter (my spouse) a person they leaned on heavily (and inappropriately for a child of that age, she was 9) for support when they first moved to the US, was not perfect. They took her in when we initially separated, and I conflated the fact that they were not eager to discuss our marital problems, with the assumption that they condoned my spouse's dysfunctional behavior. As time passed and my souse and I reconciled, my in-laws, in their own indirect way, made it abundantly clear that they never condoned the dysfunctional behavior and struggled a great deal with what was going on.

It is very possible that your in-laws were not capable of offering the kind of support you were looking for from them. It was not an intentional attempt to harm you, rug sweep, or condone the dysfunction.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> Just from a human perspective - It would have meant so much to me if they had just called and asked how I was doing. That's all. Why should I have to go to them? I thought they'd be as outraged as I was. Of course they were disappointed and upset. Concerned. Really, I just wanted them to say early on "We know she's being a fool but there's nothing we can do about it. We're here to support you however we can." I mean, jesus, eight years together, family together, they loved me and I'm alone in this country with no family or friends. I was not asking them to get in the middle, but just talk to me and have a shoulder to cry on if I needed it. Her mom was there for me, but I was expecting a bigger response and I didn't get it. I'm just saying it hurt a lot. And I don't think it's because I was the OM in her first divorce. Maybe they did not give H1 support, either, I don't know. But he had family there and he is French. I had no one.. and when I say no one, I mean absolutely no one. Major PTSD. So if that sounds self-pitying, yeah I guess it is/was.


I am sure it has been very hard. French people do not exactly take in strangers.

If your in-laws are anything like mine, they are not very psychologically healthy people. They cannot give what they do not have, staystrong. Their cupboard is empty, no matter how hungry you are.

Dug is the best thing that ever came out of France, I am telling you.


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> I am sure it has been very hard. French people do not exactly take in strangers.
> 
> If your in-laws are anything like mine, they are not very psychologically healthy people. They cannot give what they do not have, staystrong. Their cupboard is empty, no matter how hungry you are.
> 
> Dug is the best thing that ever came out of France, I am telling you.


Actually, I loved my in-laws and her siblings. I thought they were all cool people. 

Apparently I had a "hot wife' and it went to her head. You could say that a total endorsement of a man is if a woman has children with him, but I don't know if that's the case anymore. Perhaps the ultimate endorsement of a man for a woman is if she lets herself go completely and willingly in the act of sex and feels that she could be with no other. I thought that was our case, but I guess we were too vanilla in recent years. Not enough dirty talk, sexy "miss you" texts, role-paying, whatever, during the years with the kids young. Looking back, the "hotness" left our relationship and she found intense passion with someone else. The derision and rejection I felt was so f'ing intense and I just felt completely chumped. That some other guy would come along and she'd just turn into a sexpot for him. There's no greater insult is there? It's not even that I 'want' her anymore, it's just that she didn't want me 'that way' anymore. And I could see where she didn't feel wanted or desired the same way.. I can't compete with a unknown Romeo putting the moves on her. I think the anger comes from "we could've done that, too" had we'd put the time aside. It's not like I don't have a high libido or interest in kink, it's just that I got too soft with two young girls in the house. And it's humiliating to me that their mom chose another man. To be honest, I think I would have been a different had I had a son. She always said she liked that I was masculine yet not macho, and that I had empathy and cared. I thought I was the balance ... turns out she needed to be dominated more. I honestly believe that. I think she's just the type that her full sexual nature would come out once she'd been 'taught' a bit more. So that's where I feel I failed.. by not following my own darker needs with my wife, and falling into the Madonna/Whre approach. Typical, eh? OM was not having sex with her like she's the mother of his children. It was hot unadulterated passion. I feel that in a way she demeaned her children by putting her husband in second place to another man. I can berate her for being a sh!tty person, mom and wife, but on that primal level she 'won' by messaging I'm an inferior lover. She said I was a good lover, but that he's more rough. Made me want to puke.. she just needed to be manhandled more. Makes me think OM was initially using her as well. 

I think every BH goes through this process and that's why there is pressure to 'man up' at D-Day. Because it ain't about Love anymore, it's about "in love" and attraction. She's responding to all of those cues. It's not even about being the 'better' man, it's about gaining that attraction back. Standing strong, not letting her have her way, let her see what she'd be missing, that OM was a fantasy, in the hope she'd transfer that sexual energy back to her H. Because kids need that.. not only do they need an intact family, but they need to see two parents who are passionate as well as loving. And full of respect, not false post-D civil respect. Otherwise, the model will not be a strong one and they will have issues in relationships later on. That's my belief. 

Looking back, perhaps there was too much forced harmony. The 50/50 couple issue. I think she really needed me to be a leader, and she just couldn't accept that she could be earning money and I was not. She had a lot of faith in my abilities to run my start up but it was not earning money in the timeline I had planned. So major unspoken frustration. I spoke to her frankly once and asked her if she argued with her new partner. She said she realized she gets easily frustrated. Yup. To be honest, she was much better off as a person when she was with me. I mean, her soul. I feel she's hardened, she's lost something. That and on some level she must despise me for 'failing' her. Now I look around and I see much more hardness in people than I used to. People are so easily disappointed in each other and FFS, why? Life is not that hard for most people but they make it hard on themselves.


----------



## staystrong

Paladin said:


> My counselor and I discussed this issue at length about my in-laws. The conclusion was pretty simple when viewed through the lenses of healing, passage of time, and reconciliation (in our case that is). My in-laws have a tough time facing certain issues (as we all do) and one of those issues was the inability to initially accept the fact that their first born daughter (my spouse) a person they leaned on heavily (and inappropriately for a child of that age, she was 9) for support when they first moved to the US, was not perfect. They took her in when we initially separated, and I conflated the fact that they were not eager to discuss our marital problems, with the assumption that they condoned my spouse's dysfunctional behavior. As time passed and my souse and I reconciled, my in-laws, in their own indirect way, made it abundantly clear that they never condoned the dysfunctional behavior and struggled a great deal with what was going on.
> 
> It is very possible that your in-laws were not capable of offering the kind of support you were looking for from them. It was not an intentional attempt to harm you, rug sweep, or condone the dysfunction.


Yes, this is what I surmised as well. Good post. 

But I was definitely like "Where's the love?"

I think I embarrassed myself a bit during my PTSD phase, and I feel some shame about that. I think I just needed to know that people were on my side. It was like a basic need, because I was in a foreign war zone basically and my XW was kicking me in the teeth. She even told me once, "I thought you were stronger than this." That hurt. I was strong, just needed some meds and some sleep to make good decisions. I think I was so stunned I didn't realize those guys could help me. How would a pill help you with a cheating wife? LOL. I was an idiot.


----------



## staystrong

Maricha75 said:


> And the ones who are not doing this, but are accused of it anyway? No, it still gives no license to do it. You can use the 2x4 without adding nails to it.


Good line.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> Actually, I loved my in-laws and her siblings. I thought they were all cool people.
> 
> Apparently I had a "hot wife' and it went to her head. You could say that a total endorsement of a man is if a woman has children with him, but I don't know if that's the case anymore. Perhaps the ultimate endorsement of a man for a woman is if she lets herself go completely and willingly in the act of sex and feels that she could be with no other. I thought that was our case, but I guess we were too vanilla in recent years. Not enough dirty talk, sexy "miss you" texts, role-paying, whatever, during the years with the kids young. Looking back, the "hotness" left our relationship and she found intense passion with someone else. The derision and rejection I felt was so f'ing intense and I just felt completely chumped. That some other guy would come along and she'd just turn into a sexpot for him. There's no greater insult is there? It's not even that I 'want' her anymore, it's just that she didn't want me 'that way' anymore. And I could see where she didn't feel wanted or desired the same way.. I can't compete with a unknown Romeo putting the moves on her. I think the anger comes from "we could've done that, too" had we'd put the time aside. It's not like I don't have a high libido or interest in kink, it's just that I got too soft with two young girls in the house. And it's humiliating to me that their mom chose another man. To be honest, I think I would have been a different had I had a son. She always said she liked that I was masculine yet not macho, and that I had empathy and cared. I thought I was the balance ... turns out she needed to be dominated more. I honestly believe that. I think she's just the type that her full sexual nature would come out once she'd been 'taught' a bit more. So that's where I feel I failed.. by not following my own darker needs with my wife, and falling into the Madonna/Whre approach. Typical, eh? OM was not having sex with her like she's the mother of his children. It was hot unadulterated passion. I feel that in a way she demeaned her children by putting her husband in second place to another man. I can berate her for being a sh!tty person, mom and wife, but on that primal level she 'won' by messaging I'm an inferior lover. She said I was a good lover, but that he's more rough. Made me want to puke.. she just needed to be manhandled more. Makes me think OM was initially using her as well.
> 
> I think every BH goes through this process and that's why there is pressure to 'man up' at D-Day. Because it ain't about Love anymore, it's about "in love" and attraction. She's responding to all of those cues. It's not even about being the 'better' man, it's about gaining that attraction back. Standing strong, not letting her have her way, let her see what she'd be missing, that OM was a fantasy, in the hope she'd transfer that sexual energy back to her H. Because kids need that.. not only do they need an intact family, but they need to see two parents who are passionate as well as loving. And full of respect, not false post-D civil respect. Otherwise, the model will not be a strong one and they will have issues in relationships later on. That's my belief.
> 
> Looking back, perhaps there was too much forced harmony. The 50/50 couple issue. I think she really needed me to be a leader, and she just couldn't accept that she could be earning money and I was not. She had a lot of faith in my abilities to run my start up but it was not earning money in the timeline I had planned. So major unspoken frustration. I spoke to her frankly once and asked her if she argued with her new partner. She said she realized she gets easily frustrated. Yup. To be honest, she was much better off as a person when she was with me. I mean, her soul. I feel she's hardened, she's lost something. That and on some level she must despise me for 'failing' her. Now I look around and I see much more hardness in people than I used to. People are so easily disappointed in each other and FFS, why? Life is not that hard for most people but they make it hard on themselves.


Interesting post, staystrong. I appreciate the honesty.

I do think the man has to maintain his woman's attraction if he wants to keep her. Different women require different things. It is not one size fits all. You really have to study her and know her on a deep level. 

She has to feel safe with you to share herself completely with you. You have to earn that safety, earn her trust. And it must be maintained. Laziness is not going to get a man where he wants to be with his wife.

Men do not like it when I say that they earn the marriage they have, but I think there is a lot of truth to that. Even the way they react to that statement reveals a lot about their character.


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> Interesting post, staystrong. I appreciate the honesty.
> 
> I do think the man has to maintain his woman's attraction if he wants to keep her. Different women require different things. It is not one size fits all. You really have to study her and know her on a deep level.
> 
> She has to feel safe with you to share herself completely with you. You have to earn that safety, earn her trust. And it must be maintained. Laziness is not going to get a man where he wants to be with his wife.
> 
> Men do not like it when I say that they earn the marriage they have, but I think there is a lot of truth to that. Even the way they react to that statement reveals a lot about their character.


That's all fine and dandy so long as same applies to women that they get the marriage they earn as well. Let's not make this one sided. 

But this assumes one very important thing, that both the husband and wife are healthy people capable of having a healthy relationships. When you have one spouse who is healthy and loving , puts their spouse first and their own needs second that can still be completely derailed by the other spouse incapable of returning the same. One person can completely derail a healthy marriage with infidelity. I know I lived it.


----------



## cpacan

Wolf1974 said:


> That's all fine and dandy so long as same applies to women that they get the marriage they earn as well. Let's not make this one sided.
> 
> But this assumes one very important thing, that both the husband and wife are healthy people capable of having a healthy relationships. When you have one spouse who is healthy and loving , puts their spouse first and their own needs second that can still be completely derailed by the other spouse incapable of returning the same. One person can completely derail a healthy marriage with infidelity. I know I lived it.


Then the healthy and loving spouse should put even more work in the relationship, more love and more power untill the desired outcome is recognized.


----------



## Wolf1974

cpacan said:


> Then the healthy and loving spouse should put even more work in the relationship, more love and more power untill the desired outcome is recognized.


So let me understand you. You are saying that you can LOVE someone out of depression, Bi polar, alcoholism and so forth and so on??!


----------



## Pluto2

Wolf1974 said:


> So let me understand you. You are saying that you can LOVE someone out of depression, Bi polar, alcoholism and so forth and so on??!


Well, not in my case. Despite providing unconditional love, my clinical depressed, paranoid ex became more abusive, more deceitful and unhealthy to be around. The deceit included deceit about his own health.


----------



## Faeleaf

Wolf1974 said:


> But this assumes one very important thing, that both the husband and wife are healthy people capable of having a healthy relationships. When you have one spouse who is healthy and loving , puts their spouse first and their own needs second that can still be completely derailed by the other spouse incapable of returning the same. One person can completely derail a healthy marriage with infidelity. I know I lived it.


Wolf, I have to say I have a hard time thinking this way. This is a short-coming of mine. I know, logically, there is a lot of truth to what you are saying. Good spouses get hurt by bad ones, every day. I know on some level that is true. 

And in my own life, I _try_ to absolve myself of blame in my first marriage, because I really did love him, worked extremely hard to be the ideal wife for him, and forgave a TON of faults. And on his end, well, let's just say that he did about a dozen things that most people would call "deal-breakers." 

So when I see someone say they were the "good" spouse, and their partner "broke it," a part of my brain accepts that it's at least _possible_ that is true.

But the larger part of my brain objects. It's probably not fair, but I still struggle with this. Because doesn't everyone (or nearly everyone) claim to be the aggrieved party in a divorce? Aren't we all pretty much convinced it's the fault of the other guy? Isn't it human nature to think so, whether it's divorce, or a traffic accident, or war, or for that matter any kind of human conflict? 

If everyone is running around convinced in their own minds that they are the "good" person, and the other guy is the "bad" person...well statistically, at least 50% of us are wrong. Even though we are completely convinced otherwise...we're wrong. I say "at least 50%" because with most conflicts, including divorce, the short-comings that brought it down are distributed on both sides...faults by one spouse feeding into faults by the other, and on and on in a vicious cycle, while both spouses can see only their partner's crimes, not their own.

It's natural to excuse ourselves of wrongdoing, while pointing out the wrongdoing of others. We all do that...in fact it's quite difficult _not_ to. Is it possible to view oneself with a completely objective eye? I'm not sure it is. Doesn't everyone have their thumb on the scale, at least a little bit? I'm sure I do it too, without realizing it, without wanting to.

I hope you'll understand that I'm not accusing you (or anyone here) of anything. I'm admitting that many times, I lack the grace to believe anyone is innocent as they claim they are. I lack the grace to believe it of myself, in my own divorce. 

My first reaction is always, "OK, but what does that look like from the other side of the battlefield? What's the other side of the story?" That probably makes me annoying on TAM. I apologize if it does.


----------



## Wolf1974

Pluto2 said:


> Well, not in my case. Despite providing unconditional love, my clinical depressed, paranoid ex became more abusive, more deceitful and unhealthy to be around. The deceit included deceit about his own health.


And love didn't save my depressed, riddled with daddy issues and anti man philopsy x wife. I live her more than anyone in her past still wasn't good enough so have no clue what cpacan s talking about


----------



## staystrong

Faeleaf, you probably forgave things you shouldn't have and that's not healthy. It just teaches people that they can take you for granted. 

It's never the other person's fault if someone cheats.


----------



## cpacan

I totally agree, no one cheats for no reason. Infidelity doesn't happen in a vacuum, there's always two people contributing to every situation in a marriage. Betrayed spouses should look at them selves and start correcting their own issues. Then we'll see if the WS will take them back.


----------



## Wolf1974

Faeleaf said:


> Wolf, I have to say I have a hard time thinking this way. This is a short-coming of mine. I know, logically, there is a lot of truth to what you are saying. Good spouses get hurt by bad ones, every day. I know on some level that is true.
> 
> And in my own life, I _try_ to absolve myself of blame in my first marriage, because I really did love him, worked extremely hard to be the ideal wife for him, and forgave a TON of faults. And on his end, well, let's just say that he did about a dozen things that most people would call "deal-breakers."
> 
> So when I see someone say they were the "good" spouse, and their partner "broke it," a part of my brain accepts that it's at least _possible_ that is true.
> 
> But the larger part of my brain objects. It's probably not fair, but I still struggle with this. Because doesn't everyone (or nearly everyone) claim to be the aggrieved party in a divorce? Aren't we all pretty much convinced it's the fault of the other guy? Isn't it human nature to think so, whether it's divorce, or a traffic accident, or war, or for that matter any kind of human conflict?
> 
> If everyone is running around convinced in their own minds that they are the "good" person, and the other guy is the "bad" person...well statistically, at least 50% of us are wrong. Even though we are completely convinced otherwise...we're wrong. I say "at least 50%" because with most conflicts, including divorce, the short-comings that brought it down are distributed on both sides...faults by one spouse feeding into faults by the other, and on and on in a vicious cycle, while both spouses can see only their partner's crimes, not their own.
> 
> It's natural to excuse ourselves of wrongdoing, while pointing out the wrongdoing of others. We all do that...in fact it's quite difficult _not_ to. Is it possible to view oneself with a completely objective eye? I'm not sure it is. Doesn't everyone have their thumb on the scale, at least a little bit? I'm sure I do it too, without realizing it, without wanting to.
> 
> I hope you'll understand that I'm not *accusing* you (or anyone here) of anything. I'm admitting that many times, I lack the grace to believe anyone is innocent as they claim they are. I lack the grace to believe it of myself, in my own divorce.
> 
> My first reaction is always, "OK, but what does that look like from the other side of the battlefield? What's the other side of the story?" That probably makes me annoying on TAM. I apologize if it does.


It's ok I have all the validation that I needed from my x wife who told me I was a good husband and that she was a bad wife. No apology of course ......but at least validation. Further validated by all the mutual friends who we used to have....every single one left her and won't speak to her because of what she did to me.

And I can understand why you may be hesitant this was maybe not your perspective of what you lived but it was mine. So I absolutely agree that it takes 2 to make a marriage work but one can destroy it from within cause that's what I lived 

Nothing is applicable 100% of the time. Marriages end for a various of reasons. My personal experience from what I have seen is that even in unhappy marriages, on both fronts, one person is willing to throw in the towel long before the other person. Again just what I have personally seen.


----------



## Ripper

cpacan said:


> I totally agree, no one cheats for no reason. Infidelity doesn't happen in a vacuum, there's always two people contributing to every situation in a marriage. Betrayed spouses should look at them selves and start correcting their own issues. Then we'll see if the WS will take them back.


Things have degenerated so badly around here, that I'm no longer sure this is sarcasm.

It is sarcasm, right?


----------



## Wolf1974

cpacan said:


> I totally agree, no one cheats for no reason. Infidelity doesn't happen in a vacuum, there's always two people contributing to every situation in a marriage. Betrayed spouses should look at them selves and start correcting their own issues. Then we'll see if the WS will take them back.


I have looked at my own issues. I no longer play the white knight nor am I naive enough to think that you can take a damaged or selfish person and love them enough so that they love you back. I spent most my adult life putting someone else's wants above my own needs. With what time I have left I won't do that again. It's unhealthy when that's not returned


----------



## Dyokemm

faeleaf,

In general, you are correct.

There ARE no perfect people.

Self-justification is part of human nature.

The point is can you become your own worst critic...can you break out of that subjective view of the world to a more honest view of the events that occur?

Because the facts remain...to an outside observer many people's justifications for their horrible and xh*tty actions just don't hold water.

People not emotionally involved can easily spot the emotional pity party some others throw in order to excuse the disgusting and terrible things they have done.

The thing about growing as a person in this world is to learn to look at yourself this way too...in other words to look at yourself honestly and objectively.

Some people never learn how, and run through this life constantly whining and throwing out reasons why their hurtful, selfish, and destructive actions, which look so bad to others, are actually not bad because of A, S, C, etc.

But the FACTS of a situation don't lie...and people will hold us accountable based on those facts, not the excuses we give. .


----------



## Faeleaf

staystrong said:


> Faeleaf, you probably forgave things you shouldn't have and that's not healthy. It just teaches people that they can take you for granted.


Yeah, probably. I can't quite convince myself of this one yet, but I'll percolate on it.



> It's never the other person's fault if someone cheats.


Of course not. 

I still think there's MORE to the relationship than just the cheating. An illustration - my sister is a BS, and her spouse a WS. For the entire history of their marriage - including before he cheated - she's been a pretty rotten wife. Humiliating him in public, controlling/criticizing in private, constant sniping and tearing him down, never EVER admitting to any wrong, etc. It's all "little" stuff...but it's little stuff that makes her very unpleasant to be around. 

And he had an EA (not PA), and confessed it to her, and is working hard to be a better man.

It's just...I know my sister is a BS and NOT to blame for his cheating...but I still think she's the cause of a lot of her own misery. I love her dearly, but she's not anywhere near as innocent a wife as she thinks she is. 

So does _his cheating_ make their rocky marriage 100% his fault? 75%? What do we conclude? It just doesn't seem as black and white to me as it does to others.


----------



## Wolf1974

Faeleaf said:


> Yeah, probably. I can't quite convince myself of this one yet, but I'll percolate on it.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course not.
> 
> I still think there's MORE to the relationship than just the cheating. An illustration - my sister is a BS, and her spouse a WS. For the entire history of their marriage - including before he cheated - she's been a pretty rotten wife. Humiliating him in public, controlling/criticizing in private, constant sniping and tearing him down, never EVER admitting to any wrong, etc. It's all "little" stuff...but it's little stuff that makes her very unpleasant to be around.
> 
> And he had an EA (not PA), and confessed it to her, and is working hard to be a better man.
> 
> It's just...I know my sister is a BS and NOT to blame for his cheating...but I still think she's the cause of a lot of her own misery. I love her dearly, but she's not anywhere near as innocent a wife as she thinks she is.
> 
> So does _his cheating_ make their rocky marriage 100% his fault? 75%? What do we conclude? It just doesn't seem as black and white to me as it does to others.



No and that's not what people have been saying here either no matter how much WAywards want to try and spin it


In your example They would both be accountable for the bad marriage but he is 100% accountable for the affair.


----------



## Philat

Ripper said:


> Things have degenerated so badly around here, that I'm no longer sure this is sarcasm.
> 
> It is sarcasm, right?


I sure as hell hope so. cpacan is usually right on target.


----------



## Wolf1974

Philat said:


> I sure as hell hope so. cpacan is usually right on target.


If I missed his post as sarcasm I apologize. After seeing some of JLDs posts I honestly thought people were jumping off the cliff of common sense. My bad


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> Interesting post, staystrong. I appreciate the honesty.
> 
> I do think the man has to maintain his woman's attraction if he wants to keep her. Different women require different things. It is not one size fits all. You really have to study her and know her on a deep level.
> 
> She has to feel safe with you to share herself completely with you. You have to earn that safety, earn her trust. And it must be maintained. Laziness is not going to get a man where he wants to be with his wife.
> 
> Men do not like it when I say that they earn the marriage they have, but I think there is a lot of truth to that. Even the way they react to that statement reveals a lot about their character.


Yeah, I don't think you should say that to men who have been cheated on. I don't think it's fair when dealing with infidelity. 

What do you mean by "safe"? Protected, free from judgement?

Why are you calling me lazy?


----------



## Dyokemm

faeleaf,

Each partner is at least 50% responsible for the issues in a M before an A...and yes the BS can actually be more than 50% responsible for the issues.

But the choice to cheat rather than demand changes in the M or to end it and move on if its too broken is 100% on the WS.

No one MAKES you cheat...its a decision the WS came to all on their own, and they have to own it completely.

Fixing the problems in a M is an entirely separate issue, and here both partners are going to have to change and put in work if its going to be saved.

The problem is, too many WS want to conflate the two issues...this is called blameshifting...they want to pretend that the state of the M excuses their choice to cheat...that's bullsh*t.


----------



## staystrong

Faeleaf said:


> Yeah, probably. I can't quite convince myself of this one yet, but I'll percolate on it.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course not.
> 
> I still think there's MORE to the relationship than just the cheating. An illustration - my sister is a BS, and her spouse a WS. For the entire history of their marriage - including before he cheated - she's been a pretty rotten wife. Humiliating him in public, controlling/criticizing in private, constant sniping and tearing him down, never EVER admitting to any wrong, etc. It's all "little" stuff...but it's little stuff that makes her very unpleasant to be around.
> 
> And he had an EA (not PA), and confessed it to her, and is working hard to be a better man.
> 
> It's just...I know my sister is a BS and NOT to blame for his cheating...but I still think she's the cause of a lot of her own misery. I love her dearly, but she's not anywhere near as innocent a wife as she thinks she is.
> 
> So does _his cheating_ make their rocky marriage 100% his fault? 75%? What do we conclude? It just doesn't seem as black and white to me as it does to others.


No, your sister is just a b*tch to him. But that doesn't give him license to cheat. It's hard to put a % on the marital problems without being in the marriage itself.

Sounds like he needs to regain the upper hand since she doesn't have much respect for him. And she needs to take a look at herself and learn that the more she respects her husband, the better he will be. Build him up, not tear him down.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> Men do not like it when I say that they earn the marriage they have, but I think there is a lot of truth to that. Even the way they react to that statement reveals a lot about their character.


Not at all. I always strived to maintain my attractiveness.

The reactions are not to what you said above. The reactions you are getting are to your double standards and gender bias.

You know it, yet you like to post statements above with every shred of untruth to it. That shows a lot about your character.


----------



## Faeleaf

Wolf1974 said:


> No and that's not what people have been saying here either no matter how much WAywards want to try and spin it
> 
> 
> In your example They would both be accountable for the bad marriage but he is 100% accountable for the affair.


OK I like the way you're explaining this. It's making me think of it in a different way, and I very much appreciate that.

Tons of people are unhappy in marriage. Some cheat, and some don't. What makes the difference? It's not level of unhappiness, is it? It's not even type of unhappiness, as the things most often cited as "causes" of affairs (wives withholding sex, or men neglecting wives) happen to both people who cheat, and people who don't. The deliminating factor is NOT the actions of the BS. 

So ultimately, while the _marriage_ is the product of two married people, the _cheating_ goes back to the cheater. And the WS's perception (if it's along the lines of "I cheated because my spouse made me unhappy") might be a _natural perception,_ but it's also a _wrong perception._ 

I like analogies... It's like a guy got into a terrible accident on the freeway...totaled his car and killed a motorcyclist. And when he's giving his statement to the police, he says, "My wife humiliated me by screaming at me in front of my boss, and I felt so terrible about that I immediately drank four shots of vodka before driving home. Please arrest my wife, because clearly this is her fault." 

And in his mind he might be arguing, "Well, if she hadn't done that totally awful thing, I would never have been driving drunk and so would never have been in that accident." _All probably true_. And it WAS a horrible thing to humiliate him, and if they are going to stay married, she'll probably need to examine her own shortcomings, because she should really stop doing that. 

But the _accident_ is his fault, his terrible choice, his extremely bad judgment. The question he really should be asking himself is, "Why did I let that humiliation influence me to make such a gross mistake? How should I be addressing what is clearly wrong with _me_?"


----------



## staystrong

I think the word psychologists use is "vulnerable". 

What was the role of the BS in making the marriage vulnerable to an affair?

I have issue with this because many times it's not what the BS did, but what they DIDN'T do in the eyes of the WS, which were causes of unhappiness.

It's much easier to know when someone is not happy with something you've done (e.g. putting them down) versus something they didn't do (e.g. throw them a big birthday party or whatever).

Everyone who has been cheated on has a self-doubt phase. And WS's will feed on that if you let them.

If the measure of whether you were a good wife or husband is whether or not your spouse cheats on you, then we're living in a messed up society. You could be great but maybe not as sparkly and flirty as Tina over in Accounting. Tina, who is having problems with her boyfriend and tells your husband really listens well. And he has nice eyes, did she ever mention that? And he's sooo funny. What, his wife doesn't really like his jokes?


----------



## staystrong

Faeleaf said:


> OK I like the way you're explaining this. It's making me think of it in a different way, and I very much appreciate that.
> 
> Tons of people are unhappy in marriage. Some cheat, and some don't. What makes the difference? It's not level of unhappiness, is it? It's not even type of unhappiness, as the things most often cited as "causes" of affairs (wives withholding sex, or men neglecting wives) happen to both people who cheat, and people who don't. The deliminator factor is NOT the actions of the BS.
> 
> So ultimately, while the _marriage_ is the product of two married people, the _cheating_ goes back to the cheater. And the WS's perception (if it's along the lines of "I cheated because my spouse made me unhappy") might be a _natural perception,_ but it's also a _wrong perception._
> 
> I like analogies... It's like a guy got into a terrible accident on the freeway...totaled his car and killed a motorcyclist. And when he's giving his statement to the police, he says, "My wife humiliated me by screaming at me in front of my boss, and I felt so terrible about that I immediately drank four shots of vodka before driving home. Please arrest my wife, because clearly this is her fault."
> 
> And in his mind he might be arguing, "Well, if she hadn't done that totally awful thing, I would never have been driving drunk and so would never have been in that accident." _All probably true_. And it WAS a horrible thing to humiliate him, and if they are going to stay married, she'll probably need to examine her own shortcomings, because she should really stop doing that.
> 
> But the _accident_ is his fault, his terrible choice, his extremely bad judgment. The question he really should be asking himself is, "Why did I let that humiliation influence me to make such a gross mistake? How should I be addressing what is clearly wrong with _me_?"


You're applying logic. 

Waywards have spent weeks or months creating their own internal logic based on feeling. Feelings become facts. The only thing that matters. "I know it's wrong but I can't help what I feel." (Therefore it must be 'right' somehow).

Gut. Following the heart. Destiny. 

All of that trumps logic and self-awareness until they are ready for it.


----------



## Faeleaf

staystrong said:


> I think the word psychologists use is "vulnerable".
> 
> What was the role of the BS in making the marriage vulnerable to an affair?
> You could be great but maybe not as sparkly and flirty as Tina over in Accounting. Tina, who is having problems with her boyfriend and tells your husband really listens well. And he has nice eyes, did she ever mention that? And he's sooo funny. What, his wife doesn't really like his jokes?


You're touching on some of my nerves with this, because I think I am hypersensitive to my own short-comings after my first husband cheated on me (multiple times). Even though, objectively, it was his short-comings that led to his cheating. I was pretty amazing to him.

I work in a business where it's hammered into you..."There's always something you can do about the problem." You don't make excuses, you don't blame co-workers. You find something you can do. There's always something you can do. And my adaptation to this way of thinking has made me very successful in my job.

But I also bring this mindset home, and think a LOT about what I can do to protect myself from another affair. I never think, "Well, that's all on my husband." I married a GREAT guy this time around, and he's extremely faithful and loyal. I honestly don't think he'll ever cheat on me. But I still think about it, all the time. That fear motivates me to always ask myself, "What more can I do? How can I make this marriage happier, stronger, etc?" 

I never rest easy. I'm always thinking about Tina in Accounting, you know? I push myself to treat him better than anyone else could. Is that a good or bad thing? Or a little of both?


----------



## Dyokemm

"I think the word psychologists use is "vulnerable"."

I don't really like this view explanation for a M struck by infidelity.

The vulnerability is not in the M....its something in the WS.

I think every M goes through less that perfect times, but in most Ms neither partner cheats as a result.

Even in Ms impacted by infidelity, the BS doesn't cheat, and they're in the same 'low' cycle in the M as the WS.

So logically, you cannot say the infidelity happened because the M had somehow been made vulnerable.

It has to be something INSIDE the WS that creates the vulnerability.

And when the root cause is so subjective, an A can actually happen in a M that is really pretty good because what matters is the state of vulnerability inside a person who is basically broken in some way.


----------



## staystrong

Dyokemm said:


> It has to be something INSIDE the WS that creates the vulnerability.
> 
> And when the root cause is so subjective, an A can actually happen in a M that is really pretty good because what matters is the state of vulnerability inside a person who is basically broken in some way.


^ THAT

We should all strive to be better humans, better to one another. Especially those we love. 

I think WS's do experience guilt and are confused. Confused about why they are falling for someone else and too weak to stop it. But they can't or won't approach their BS about it, and ending the A and reinvigorating the M becomes a self-defeating cycle. I do try and see it from their point of view, but I won't validate that point of view. They crossed lines and they know it. That's certainly not the BS's fault. And that does happen in pretty good marriages. That's the whole tragedy about affairs from the APs point of view.. right people, wrong time. Does any BS want to hear that? Hell no. Snap out of your fog. I think even the APs hate themselves at times and wished they'd never met. That's how they feel. It's no consolation to the BS though. But the 'fog' is a powerful force and breaking the bond takes some swift action and long-term dedication.


----------



## Faeleaf

Dyokemm said:


> an A can actually happen in a M that is really pretty good because what matters is the state of vulnerability inside a person who is basically broken in some way.


Would you say then that if a marriage is GREAT, it would take a very severe "break" in the WS's character to cause him/her to cheat? And correspondingly, in a marriage that is TERRIBLE, it takes only a very small "break" in the WS's character to cause him/her to cheat? 

Could we draw a straight line diagonal on a graph, where the y axis is the happiness in the marriage, the x axis is the degree of flawed character in the WS, and the diagonal line plots where an affair takes place? 

Because clearly not all WS are alike. Some persist in bad marriages a very long time before succumbing to temptation, and some step out almost immediately before their bride has hung up her wedding dress.


----------



## Wolf1974

Faeleaf said:


> OK I like the way you're explaining this. It's making me think of it in a different way, and I very much appreciate that.
> 
> Tons of people are unhappy in marriage. *Some cheat, and some don't. What makes the difference? I*t's not level of unhappiness, is it? It's not even type of unhappiness, as the things most often cited as "causes" of affairs (wives withholding sex, or men neglecting wives) happen to both people who cheat, and people who don't. The deliminating factor is NOT the actions of the BS.
> 
> So ultimately, while the _marriage_ is the product of two married people, the _cheating_ goes back to the cheater. And the WS's perception (if it's along the lines of "I cheated because my spouse made me unhappy") might be a _natural perception,_ but it's also a _wrong perception._
> 
> I like analogies... It's like a guy got into a terrible accident on the freeway...totaled his car and killed a motorcyclist. And when he's giving his statement to the police, he says, "My wife humiliated me by screaming at me in front of my boss, and I felt so terrible about that I immediately drank four shots of vodka before driving home. Please arrest my wife, because clearly this is her fault."
> 
> And in his mind he might be arguing, "Well, if she hadn't done that totally awful thing, I would never have been driving drunk and so would never have been in that accident." _All probably true_. And it WAS a horrible thing to humiliate him, and if they are going to stay married, she'll probably need to examine her own shortcomings, because she should really stop doing that.
> 
> But the _accident_ is his fault, his terrible choice, his extremely bad judgment. The question he really should be asking himself is, "Why did I let that humiliation influence me to make such a gross mistake? How should I be addressing what is clearly wrong with _me_?"


And this is the real question and to me the answer is character. Yes many are unhappy in marriage but when you CHOOSE to have an affair that is for no benefit but self pleasure that's a character issue.

I also like analogies and here is the one that seems less debated and I wonder why. A couple argues. Both are pushing each other's buttons and making the argument out of control. The husband hauls off and slaps his wife. So then:

Both are at fault for the arguement. Both are at fault for pushing buttons. But only the husband is guilty of hitting his wife. Only he did the physical abuse. 

For some reason that doesn't seem to even be a second thought here on TAM but when you suggest that two parties can have a bad marriage but the one who cheats...that's affair is all on them then many suddenly can't see that. To me it's one in the same.


----------



## Wolf1974

Faeleaf said:


> Would you say then that if a marriage is GREAT, it would take a very severe "break" in the WS's character to cause him/her to cheat? And correspondingly, in a marriage that is TERRIBLE, it takes only a very small "break" in the WS's character to cause him/her to cheat?
> 
> Could we draw a straight line diagonal on a graph, where the y axis is the happiness in the marriage, the x axis is the degree of flawed character in the WS, and the diagonal line plots where an affair takes place?
> 
> Because clearly not all WS are alike. Some persist in bad marriages a very long time before succumbing to temptation, and some step out almost immediately before their bride has hung up her wedding dress.


I tend to think that people who cheat, for the most part, are self justifiers and believe they aren't really "hurting other people". I would venture to say that they are capable of cheating no matter how happy they are in marriage.....to this point I may be a bit biased but it's what I believe. Also the reason I refuse to ever date a woman who has cheated in the past. Just won't do it.


----------



## soulpotato

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> He does have intimacy issues. I feel for him because deep down he is a very passionate person and his faltering ability to be intimate on the level that he needs, really feeds into his KISA and drives it to a great extent I think.
> 
> He tells me that he is fearful of letting go because he has no idea what is underneath his deeply buried and emotionally intimate feelings. He doesn't have the emotional freedom to be himself as he really is.


Yeah, it's scary to dig down to buried feelings or compartmentalized things. This sounds like work he could definitely stand to do in therapy. These issues could contribute to his KISA-ness. Even if he's doing well now, the issues will come back up sooner or later if they aren't dealt with. At the very least, he's not able to be himself as he is, and that has to be an unhappy thing. Denial of self can lead to destructive outbursts.



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I see it, but I'm trapped too on the other side of the brick wall. He has to do the work. I just tell him when aspects of his emotional withdrawal affect me.


This is how it was with my betrayed partner. She is behind a thick, high wall - always was. It certainly didn't get any better after my actions. I find it exceedingly difficult to deal with the emotional withdrawal, especially for long periods of time. I feel for you - that is hard to endure, and would be especially so with the betrayals because you are needing him to be there and emotionally present with you.



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> We were only discussing the addictive factor yesterday funnily enough, he's addicted to the high of the validation he gets from his KISA complex.


It can be very addictive for someone who spends most of their time feeling bad inside and doesn't have healthy ways of dealing with things.

I did ask my therapist today about what it takes to have a healthy internal validation system. She said it is a long process and involves re-parenting and more positive self-talk. I'm getting better at the self-talk, but...how many years is this going to take? LOL. At least she lent me a book on self-parenting.


She also has me working through this right now (even though my parents weren't alcoholics, she said the effects of my upbringing would be similar).
 




BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Thank you for the link to recovery nation. We will look at it together.


You're welcome! I had just started poking around on the site myself. The articles and lessons are interesting.



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> He's in two minds about more therapy, but is willing to go if I feel like he should. I'm reluctant to ask though, because I don't want to be his mother and try and "fix" him.


It seems like he is kind of laying that at your feet. I think if he asks himself if he still has things to work on, if he were honest with himself, he'd say yes! And then make an appointment. 



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Thank you!


You're welcome. Thank you as well!


----------



## jld

Faeleaf said:


> You're touching on some of my nerves with this, because I think I am hypersensitive to my own short-comings after my first husband cheated on me (multiple times). Even though, objectively, it was his short-comings that led to his cheating. I was pretty amazing to him.
> 
> I work in a business where it's hammered into you..."There's always something you can do about the problem." You don't make excuses, you don't blame co-workers. You find something you can do. There's always something you can do. And my adaptation to this way of thinking has made me very successful in my job.
> 
> But I also bring this mindset home, and think a LOT about what I can do to protect myself from another affair. I never think, "Well, that's all on my husband." I married a GREAT guy this time around, and he's extremely faithful and loyal. I honestly don't think he'll ever cheat on me. But I still think about it, all the time. That fear motivates me to always ask myself, "What more can I do? How can I make this marriage happier, stronger, etc?"
> 
> I never rest easy. I'm always thinking about Tina in Accounting, you know? I push myself to treat him better than anyone else could. Is that a good or bad thing? Or a little of both?


Maybe controlling? You are determined never to be cheated on again, and so never let your guard down?

The reality is that any marriage can experience cheating. All we can do is minimize our risk, not eliminate it entirely.

Have you shared your fears with your husband?


----------



## jld

Faeleaf said:


> I still think there's MORE to the relationship than just the cheating. An illustration - my sister is a BS, and her spouse a WS. For the entire history of their marriage - including before he cheated - she's been a pretty rotten wife. Humiliating him in public, controlling/criticizing in private, constant sniping and tearing him down, never EVER admitting to any wrong, etc. It's all "little" stuff...but it's little stuff that makes her very unpleasant to be around.
> 
> And he had an EA (not PA), and confessed it to her, and is working hard to be a better man.
> 
> It's just...I know my sister is a BS and NOT to blame for his cheating...but I still think she's the cause of a lot of her own misery. I love her dearly, but she's not anywhere near as innocent a wife as she thinks she is.
> 
> So does _his cheating_ make their rocky marriage 100% his fault? 75%? What do we conclude? It just doesn't seem as black and white to me as it does to others.


I would encourage him to leave. He basically sounds like a weak guy mentally and emotionally abused by the more dominant person in the marriage, your sister. 

Everyone has a limit. He reached his, and he cracked.

An affair reveals a lot about the wayward and the marriage in general. I hope your BIL will be honest with himself. And I hope your sister will look at herself honestly too and not just sit in self-righteousness. 

Losing him might be the only thing that wakes her up to her own inadequacies. Or do you think she would just stew in bitterness and self-justification?


----------



## Faeleaf

jld said:


> Maybe controlling? You are determined never to be cheated on again, and so never let your guard down?
> 
> The reality is that any marriage can experience cheating. All we can do is minimize our risk, not eliminate it entirely.
> 
> Have you shared your fears with your husband?


Oh yes, he knows all about it. He knows about my history with the ex-husband and the "battle scars" I carry around. And honestly, he's *so* trustworthy, I feel very certain he won't cheat. I never worry about him spending time with female friends, or anything like that. But despite that, I feel a constant pressure from inside, to work harder, do more, be better. It never goes away.

And no, I wouldn't call that "controlling." I'm completely opposed to controlling a spouse. I think men, especially, often find it easier to let the woman have "her way" in the relationship, in order to avoid an argument. She wants Chinese for dinner? They have Chinese. That kind of thing. We don't do that. His thoughts and opinions are every bit as important as mine.


----------



## Faeleaf

jld said:


> I would encourage him to leave. He basically sounds like a weak guy mentally and emotionally abused by the more dominant person in the marriage, your sister.
> 
> Everyone has a limit. He reached his, and he cracked.
> 
> An affair reveals a lot about the wayward and the marriage in general. I hope your BIL will be honest with himself. And I hope your sister will look at herself honestly too and not just sit in self-righteousness.
> 
> Losing him might be the only thing that wakes her up to her own inadequacies. Or do you think she would just stew in bitterness and self-justification?


Yeah, my husband and I feel like we're watching a car wreck sometimes with the two of them...it's horrifying, but still we can't look away. 

They are very unlikely to leave each other while the kids are growing up. I could tell you why, but it would take awhile. Suffice to say that's just how they are. They would both rather be miserable than leave their children. They just won't.

I do think, however, that once the kids are out of the house, he'll leave her. But no, it won't serve as a wake-up call for her. 

That sounds harsh, but I know my sister. We're twins, but rather than having identical personalities, in some ways we're the opposite sides of the same coin. Growing up, I'd apologize for everything, even if I wasn't to blame. She'd never apologize for anything, even if she was. 

She can't see it when she's wrong. Never has. And it breaks my heart to see her so unhappy...my twin...my "other half" for so many years. I have a wonderful guy and this happy marriage, and she has...a lot of misery. It makes me so sad and bewildered. But every time I try to talk to her about it, try to offer a different perspective or strategy, she shuts me down. It hurts, but that's just how she is.


----------



## Dyokemm

"Would you say then that if a marriage is GREAT, it would take a very severe "break" in the WS's character to cause him/her to cheat? And correspondingly, in a marriage that is TERRIBLE, it takes only a very small "break" in the WS's character to cause him/her to cheat?"

faeleaf,

Sadly, I don;t think this matters much.

The key is how severe the fundamental brokenness in the WS is, not the state of the M, when it comes to cheating.

These threads are full of Ms that were basically and fundamentally sound...yeah maybe a little routine and predictability had set in, BUT no major problems...yet the WS cheats.

These stories are far more common than those of really dysfunctional Ms hit by cheating, though that occurs too. 

That ratio should be reversed if the state of the M was paramount in leading to the A.

There are a couple of recent posters, UnAmorPerdido comes to mind, where a perfectly happy M is suddenly crushed by a stupid, meaningless ONS that comes out of the blue.

This tells me it is what's broken in the WS, and the severity of THIS issue, that is most important in whether a M will be hit by an A.


----------



## jld

Faeleaf said:


> Oh yes, he knows all about it. He knows about my history with the ex-husband and the "battle scars" I carry around. And honestly, he's *so* trustworthy, I feel very certain he won't cheat. I never worry about him spending time with female friends, or anything like that. But despite that, I feel a constant pressure from inside, to work harder, do more, be better. It never goes away.
> 
> And no, I wouldn't call that "controlling." I'm completely opposed to controlling a spouse. I think men, especially, often find it easier to let the woman have "her way" in the relationship, in order to avoid an argument. She wants Chinese for dinner? They have Chinese. That kind of thing. We don't do that. His thoughts and opinions are every bit as important as mine.


By controlling, I mean trying to control the outcome. Have you ever thought about what you would do if the unthinkable did happen? How would it be different than with your first husband? Would it be?

None of us is really in complete control of our lives. Knowing how to pick ourselves up after tragedy is really helpful. Becoming secure enough in ourselves to be able to face the uncertainty in life without panicking and demanding a particular outcome is pretty helpful, too. The Serenity Prayer comes to mind . . .


----------



## staystrong

jld said:


> By controlling, I mean trying to control the outcome. Have you ever thought about what you would do if the unthinkable did happen? How would it be different than with your first husband? Would it be?
> 
> None of us is really in complete control of our lives. Knowing how to pick ourselves up after tragedy is really helpful. Becoming secure enough in ourselves to be able to face the uncertainty in life without panicking and demanding a particular outcome is pretty helpful, too. The Serenity Prayer comes to mind . . .


You've clearly never been cheated on, jld.

It's a long chaotic process chock-full of uncertainties. When you know your wife/husband is out porking someone else, the serenity prayer is not going to comfort you I don't think. Betrayal is its own beast.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> You've clearly never been cheated on, jld.
> 
> It's a long chaotic process chock-full of uncertainties. When you know your wife/husband is out porking someone else, the serenity prayer is not going to comfort you I don't think. Betrayal is its own beast.


What is going to comfort you, staystrong?


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



jld said:


> What is going to comfort you, staystrong?


I would guess time. Time would be what is needed more than anything right now.


----------



## staystrong

Being with my children comforts me. 

I need freedom. And friends.


----------



## jld

staystrong said:


> Being with my children comforts me.
> 
> I need freedom. And friends.


I am sure the children are comforting. Kids are a lot of work, but they bring so much, too. 

Could you elaborate on the freedom part?


----------



## staystrong

Freedom from many things. I won't post them here.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



jld said:


> What is going to comfort you, staystrong?


I mean this in the most respectful way but just the fact that you asked this question proves you have never been betrayed by an adulterous spouse. And pray you never have that unfortunate experience because then you would realize that there is no comfort after infidelity for the betrayed and even sometimes the betrayer. I very much live by the words in the serenity prayer but when it comes to cheating the only saying that holds somewhat true is "time heals all wounds."


----------



## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> Not at all. I always strived to maintain my attractiveness.
> 
> The reactions are not to what you said above. The reactions you are getting are to your double standards and gender bias.
> 
> You know it, yet you like to post statements above with every shred of untruth to it. That shows a lot about your character.


Come on. That's a personal attack and a violation of the TAM rules.


----------



## sidney2718

Faeleaf said:


> OK I like the way you're explaining this. It's making me think of it in a different way, and I very much appreciate that.
> 
> Tons of people are unhappy in marriage. Some cheat, and some don't. What makes the difference? It's not level of unhappiness, is it? It's not even type of unhappiness, as the things most often cited as "causes" of affairs (wives withholding sex, or men neglecting wives) happen to both people who cheat, and people who don't. The deliminating factor is NOT the actions of the BS.
> 
> So ultimately, while the _marriage_ is the product of two married people, the _cheating_ goes back to the cheater. And the WS's perception (if it's along the lines of "I cheated because my spouse made me unhappy") might be a _natural perception,_ but it's also a _wrong perception._
> 
> I like analogies... It's like a guy got into a terrible accident on the freeway...totaled his car and killed a motorcyclist. And when he's giving his statement to the police, he says, "My wife humiliated me by screaming at me in front of my boss, and I felt so terrible about that I immediately drank four shots of vodka before driving home. Please arrest my wife, because clearly this is her fault."
> 
> And in his mind he might be arguing, "Well, if she hadn't done that totally awful thing, I would never have been driving drunk and so would never have been in that accident." _All probably true_. And it WAS a horrible thing to humiliate him, and if they are going to stay married, she'll probably need to examine her own shortcomings, because she should really stop doing that.
> 
> But the _accident_ is his fault, his terrible choice, his extremely bad judgment. The question he really should be asking himself is, "Why did I let that humiliation influence me to make such a gross mistake? How should I be addressing what is clearly wrong with _me_?"


You are absolutely right. But I think it misses the point. A and B are married. B cheats on A. A finds out about this.

What we say on TAM is that up to the point of cheating the state of the marriage is 50/50 between A and B. But the affair is 100% on B. And we can all agree on that.

But we are not done! We are only at the start. At this point A in particular, but B as well, have to decide what is going to happen next. This is the part almost always left out. They can reconcile or they can divorce.

Divorce takes only one. And then that's the end of the marriage and we can close the book.

Reconciliation takes two. And it takes cooperation between A and B. Some people believe that the entire effort in a reconciliation depends on B since B was the cheater. Others feel both A and B have to share the effort if there is to be a reconciliation.

This is where the breakdown comes. If you say, A and B want to reconcile and both will have to make an effort, there are those who will say NO, B cheated and the effort is all on B.

And there, in a nutshell, is what the debate is all about.


----------



## sidney2718

staystrong said:


> I think the word psychologists use is "vulnerable".
> 
> What was the role of the BS in making the marriage vulnerable to an affair?
> 
> I have issue with this because many times it's not what the BS did, but what they DIDN'T do in the eyes of the WS, which were causes of unhappiness.
> 
> It's much easier to know when someone is not happy with something you've done (e.g. putting them down) versus something they didn't do (e.g. throw them a big birthday party or whatever).
> 
> Everyone who has been cheated on has a self-doubt phase. And WS's will feed on that if you let them.
> 
> If the measure of whether you were a good wife or husband is whether or not your spouse cheats on you, then we're living in a messed up society. You could be great but maybe not as sparkly and flirty as Tina over in Accounting. Tina, who is having problems with her boyfriend and tells your husband really listens well. And he has nice eyes, did she ever mention that? And he's sooo funny. What, his wife doesn't really like his jokes?


I agree. I put it down to poor communication. And studies have found that in a very large percentage of divorces, poor communication was the major problem.


----------



## sidney2718

Faeleaf said:


> Would you say then that if a marriage is GREAT, it would take a very severe "break" in the WS's character to cause him/her to cheat? And correspondingly, in a marriage that is TERRIBLE, it takes only a very small "break" in the WS's character to cause him/her to cheat?
> 
> Could we draw a straight line diagonal on a graph, where the y axis is the happiness in the marriage, the x axis is the degree of flawed character in the WS, and the diagonal line plots where an affair takes place?
> 
> Because clearly not all WS are alike. Some persist in bad marriages a very long time before succumbing to temptation, and some step out almost immediately before their bride has hung up her wedding dress.


You are right. And yet you are wrong. The marriage always has more trouble. One simple example: A and B's sex life isn't what it was. Both go to bed tired and the fact that their kids are right next door means that they have to be quiet and careful.

But when B goes off to meet C in a hotel room, they have wild screaming sex. A can't match that with B. So even if A and C are equally "good" in bed, C gets the advantage.

And that's just one example. B comes home from work tired and sweaty, wanting little more than a beer and some dinner. But when B meets C for dinner, he's excited, they are both spiffed up, and they have a wonderful time.

That's another example. You could write many more.


----------



## Paladin

Dyokemm said:


> These threads are full of Ms that were basically and fundamentally sound...yeah maybe a little routine and predictability had set in, BUT no major problems...yet the WS cheats.
> 
> These stories are far more common than those of really dysfunctional Ms hit by cheating, though that occurs too.
> 
> That ratio should be reversed if the state of the M was paramount in leading to the A.
> 
> There are a couple of recent posters, UnAmorPerdido comes to mind, where a perfectly happy M is suddenly crushed by a stupid, meaningless ONS that comes out of the blue.
> 
> This tells me it is what's broken in the WS, and the severity of THIS issue, that is most important in whether a M will be hit by an A.


You are way off the mark in this assessment, and in the assumption that the marriages were without major problems and otherwise healthy before infidelity occurred.

UAP's self assessment and description of her marriage included major red flags in the areas of boundaries, transparency, and communication. Being blissfully unaware of problems in the relationship and calling it a "happy" marriage is not the same thing as actually working on, and maintaining a healthy relationship.

While I wholeheartedly agree that the choice to *cope* *inappropriately* with the dysfunction in the marriage is 100% on the WS, the dysfunction in that marriage occurred between *both* spouses.

I also think that a persons character has very little to do with how well developed their coping skills are. Most individuals can work to develop good coping skills, regardless of what kind of character they have.

Since mental health has also been mentioned, I wanted to share something my counselor discussed with me about that topic. When two spouses are at different levels of mental health, it is sometimes impossible, or at least, very difficult, to work on relationship issues, until the spouse with lower mental health moves closer to baseline. 

That is why I advocate individual counseling for both spouses in 100% of the cases, and if the mental health levels allow for it, couples counseling to work on the relationship. That might mean one spouse has to find the correct set of medications to deal with depression, bi polar, or what ever else, before *meaningful* work on the relationship can be done.

It would have been nearly impossible for me to deal with life in the first 6 months after dday if I was not on sertraline(zoloft 100mg daily) and in individual counseling like I was. 

Mental health is a very important component of coping with infidelity, as it is the cause (lack of coping skills) and the cure (developing healthy boundaries and relationship).


----------



## the guy

Why does B have to be the male in this example?

Why can't A be the male and B be the female and B going off with C????:lol:


----------



## jld

The guy, your wife was a serial cheater, right? And yet you two are still together, and happily? 

It is a pretty big deal to mend a relationship after serial cheating. How did you two do it?


----------



## sidney2718

the guy said:


> Why does B have to be the male in this example?
> 
> Why can't A be the male and B be the female and B going off with C????:lol:


They are all preverts.


----------



## russell28

Paladin said:


> While I wholeheartedly agree that the choice to *cope* *inappropriately* with the dysfunction in the marriage is 100% on the WS, the dysfunction in that marriage occurred between *both* spouses.


Once the WS decides to inappropriately solve the dysfunction by going outside of the marriage, they create a new and more compound set of dysfunctions that magnify and dwarf any previous dysfunctions. The BS was also in that same marriage, so they were dealing with the dysfunction fine, or perhaps it wasn't so dysfunctional for them because the cheating partner was exaggerating, blowing stuff out of proportion, taking stuff and turning it into "you never" and "you always", when in fact those things were just overblown bull. Obviously at one time they "did", probably when they were dating and the cheating partner was putting effort into the relationship and not looking for reasons to abandon it.

I got the "you were never there for me"... see that word "never"? 

She gave me one example.. one time I wasn't there for her, and she never said "I need you to come here right now" and I would have ran to her. But if she said that, she would have blown up her excuse that she wrapped so nicely with a bow to use to cheat.

I broke down how much I was there for her over our 32 year relationship vs. how much he was 'there' for her. Was he there for her emotionally? No, turns out he was a **** and liked to tell her why other women were prettier than her, which features he liked better. Was he there for her when she needed to sneak off and get coffee and have sex? Yes, but you know what.. I also like coffee and sex. She wanted him because it was more exciting to sneak off. You can't sneak off with your spouse, that's not thrilling.

So the truth is, that I was always there for her and still am.. I never left, she did. I didn't have a mental breakdown and freak out and make sucky choices to cheat on my spouse to solve my 'brokenness' (bored with routine of life and feeling old etc.. normal stuff everyone feels and can deal with in a healthy way)... I didn't choose to cry on the shoulder of a co-worker instead of telling my spouse about my pain. So at the end of the day, it's good for a BS to look at the relationship, but it's also important to be careful to not believe too much of the 'You didn't do x', because often it's overblown and sometimes it's just all they could come up with to justify what they are doing. 

Summary: Some cheaters have more to work with than others when it comes to the reasons and justifications.


----------



## jld

russell28 said:


> Once the WS decides to inappropriately solve the dysfunction by going outside of the marriage, they create a new and more compound set of dysfunctions that magnify and dwarf any previous dysfunctions. The BS was also in that same marriage, so they were dealing with the dysfunction fine, or perhaps it wasn't so dysfunctional for them because the cheating partner was exaggerating, blowing stuff out of proportion, taking stuff and turning it into "you never" and "you always", when in fact those things were just overblown bull. Obviously at one time they "did", probably when they were dating and the cheating partner was putting effort into the relationship and not looking for reasons to abandon it.
> 
> I got the "you were never there for me"... see that word "never"?
> 
> She gave me one example.. one time I wasn't there for her, and she never said "I need you to come here right now" and I would have ran to her. But if she said that, she would have blown up her excuse that she wrapped so nicely with a bow to use to cheat.
> 
> I broke down how much I was there for her over our 32 year relationship vs. how much he was 'there' for her. Was he there for her emotionally? No, turns out he was a **** and liked to tell her why other women were prettier than her, which features he liked better. Was he there for her when she needed to sneak off and get coffee and have sex? Yes, but you know what.. I also like coffee and sex. She wanted him because it was more exciting to sneak off. You can't sneak off with your spouse, that's not thrilling.
> 
> So the truth is, that I was always there for her and still am.. I never left, she did. I didn't have a mental breakdown and freak out and make sucky choices to cheat on my spouse to solve my 'brokenness' (bored with routine of life and feeling old etc.. normal stuff everyone feels and can deal with in a healthy way)... I didn't choose to cry on the shoulder of a co-worker instead of telling my spouse about my pain. So at the end of the day, it's good for a BS to look at the relationship, but it's also important to be careful to not believe too much of the 'You didn't do x', because often it's overblown and sometimes it's just all they could come up with to justify what they are doing.
> 
> Summary: Some cheaters have more to work with than others when it comes to the reasons and justifications.


How about just trying to understand where she is coming from, without getting defensive?

It sounds like your ability to understand her without trying to defend yourself is one of her core needs. If you are not able to do that, have you thought about why that is? Is there something you do not want to see?


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



jld said:


> How about just trying to understand where she is coming from, without getting defensive?
> 
> It sounds like your ability to understand her without trying to defend yourself is one of her core needs. If you are not able to do that, have you thought about why that is? Is there something you do not want to see?


Seriously???
Give it up, JLD. You're not going to grasp the concept. And all you're going to do is further p!ss people of on this subject.


----------



## pidge70

Maricha75 said:


> Seriously???
> Give it up, JLD. You're not going to grasp the concept. And all you're going to do is further p!ss people of on this subject.


I think she gets off on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> Come on. That's a personal attack and a violation of the TAM rules.


It wasn't anything different than what jld said, she just chose to keep it in general while knowing exactly to whom she is referring.

Just said it shows a lot about her character. She wanted to say that about men, so jump on her about it. Oh wait, you won't. Never mind.


----------



## Rookie4

Dyokemm said:


> "Would you say then that if a marriage is GREAT, it would take a very severe "break" in the WS's character to cause him/her to cheat? And correspondingly, in a marriage that is TERRIBLE, it takes only a very small "break" in the WS's character to cause him/her to cheat?"
> 
> faeleaf,
> 
> Sadly, I don;t think this matters much.
> 
> The key is how severe the fundamental brokenness in the WS is, not the state of the M, when it comes to cheating.
> 
> These threads are full of Ms that were basically and fundamentally sound...yeah maybe a little routine and predictability had set in, BUT no major problems...yet the WS cheats.
> 
> These stories are far more common than those of really dysfunctional Ms hit by cheating, though that occurs too.
> 
> That ratio should be reversed if the state of the M was paramount in leading to the A.
> 
> There are a couple of recent posters, UnAmorPerdido comes to mind, where a perfectly happy M is suddenly crushed by a stupid, meaningless ONS that comes out of the blue.
> 
> This tells me it is what's broken in the WS, and the severity of THIS issue, that is most important in whether a M will be hit by an A.


Well, I guess, if you can't find statistics, make them up yourself. You have no evidence that ANY of this is true, except one reference to a long dead thread? And, as I've said before, Affairs do NOT happen in a vacuum. Happy, well adjusted marriages do not produce infidelity, and you cannot prove to the contrary.


----------



## Rookie4

Well, I've been on a little vac, and have looked in on my thread and it has progressed about as I thought it would. The venomous have take it over , and the WS's , for whom it was intended, have pretty much left. To those few open minded individuals, (Larry Grey, Sidney, EI and a few others) and those WS's who have tried to come here and communicate and who have stayed on topic and left off the poisonous rants, I would like to express my thanks.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> Well, I've been on a little vac, and have looked in on my thread and it has progressed about *as I thought it would*.


Yup, just as you thought it would, hence your stated reason for starting this thread wasn't anything of the sort, just as I thought.

Many were fooled about that. I wasn't. It was obvious with the first post.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Well, I guess, if you can't find statistics, make them up yourself. You have no evidence that ANY of this is true, except one reference to a long dead thread? And, as I've said before, Affairs do NOT happen in a vacuum. Happy, well adjusted marriages do not produce infidelity, and you cannot prove to the contrary.


Yet you can prove your opinion is fact?

I've read and heard first hand many accounts where the WS was "happy" and that the marriage was good, but they cheated anyway. Granted that's probably not the norm. All marriages have problems, to different degrees. Some are horrible and nobody cheats. Some have minor, everyday issues and there is infidelity. It comes to down to character and choices.

If the marriage is not well-adjusted and not happy, there are noble, logical routes to take - none of which include cheating.

Nobody "drives" or "causes" a WS to cheat. It's a personal decision made exclusively by the cheater. And it's always, *always* the wrong choice.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Well, I've been on a little vac, and have looked in on my thread and it has progressed about as I thought it would. The venomous have take it over , and the WS's , for whom it was intended, have pretty much left. To those few open minded individuals, (Larry Grey, Sidney, EI and a few others) and those WS's who have tried to come here and communicate and who have stayed on topic and left off the poisonous rants, I would like to express my thanks.


And I'd like to express my thanks to all the rest of the posters, who wouldn't stand for the few "open minded" who blame shifted onto the BS and basically justified cheating.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Healer said:


> And I'd like to express my thanks to all the rest of the posters, who wouldn't stand for the few "open minded" who blame shifted onto the BS and basically justified cheating.


Including, but not limited to, those of us fWS who recognized it for what it was.


----------



## vellocet

Maricha75 said:


> Including, but not limited to, those of us fWS who recognized it for what it was.


But your opinion as a fWS doesn't count. Too inconvenient.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



vellocet said:


> But your opinion as a fWS doesn't count. Too inconvenient.


But... I am a woman, therefore weak. My opinion MUST count! It must!!


----------



## vellocet

Maricha75 said:


> But... I am a woman, therefore weak. My opinion MUST count! It must!!




Now now, watch that venom, "poophead" :ezpi_wink1:


----------



## pidge70

Maricha75 said:


> But... I am a woman, therefore weak. My opinion MUST count! It must!!


Now now, come sit on my lap and tell me all about it.


----------



## xakulax

xakulax said:


> It would appear so.. i'm done here *this thread has banned potential written all over it*



*So far* 

Zanne 

Jid

russell28 


Some times I hate being right


----------



## Mr. Dee

Rookie4 said:


> And, as I've said before, Affairs do NOT happen in a vacuum. Happy, well adjusted marriages do not produce infidelity, and you cannot prove to the contrary.


I had a happy well adjusted marriage. It was ME who wasn't well adjusted and I don't know what went wrong with me, still trying to figure that out. But I know that even during my affair I never had a single thing to complain about re my wife or my marriage. She's asked me many times, what did I go looking for that I didn't have, and there was nothing. I never felt anything was missing from her. I think I just wanted to find out if somebody who *didn't* love me would be attracted to me. Unfortunately yes. And then I didn't stop myself at that. Ugh.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Well, I guess, if you can't find statistics, make them up yourself. You have no evidence that ANY of this is true, except one reference to a long dead thread? And, as I've said before, Affairs do NOT happen in a vacuum. Happy, well adjusted marriages do not produce infidelity, and you cannot prove to the contrary.


Really cause mine did. So am I to believe am the only person in the entire world who this happend to?


----------



## Wolf1974

Mr. Dee said:


> I had a happy well adjusted marriage. It was ME who wasn't well adjusted and I don't know what went wrong with me, still trying to figure that out. But I know that even during my affair I never had a single thing to complain about re my wife or my marriage. She's asked me many times, what did I go looking for that I didn't have, and there was nothing. I never felt anything was missing from her. I think I just wanted to find out if somebody who *didn't* love me would be attracted to me. Unfortunately yes. And then I didn't stop myself at that. Ugh.


This would be very similar to what my x would say. We had a great marriage but she got bored, was very selfish, and then was flirted with by someone in her office and boom affair happend. So guess we are the only two in the world that this stuff happens to :rofl:


----------



## staystrong

Wolf1974 said:


> This would be very similar to what my x would say. We had a great marriage but she got bored, was very selfish, and then was flirted with by someone in her office and boom affair happend. So guess we are the only two in the world that this stuff happens to :rofl:


At least she admitted it. 

I think this happens VERY often at the start, but it's not something people tell their friends and family. Because most people would find that idea repellent. So it becomes "I was unhappy and fell in love" or something of the sort.


----------



## Healer

Wolf1974 said:


> This would be very similar to what my x would say. We had a great marriage but she got bored, was very selfish, and then was flirted with by someone in her office and boom affair happend. So guess we are the only two in the world that this stuff happens to :rofl:


Yup. Mine got bored of the routine. Got sick of being a mom, working, the sameness. Simply boredom. She was thrill seeking. That's what happens with life. You get married, you have kids, you work. A routine develops, you have responsibilities. I accepted that and many, many people can/do. My stbxw was a selfish thrill-seeker. Doesn't mean there's necessarily something terribly wrong with the marriage. 

She got her thrill. And her walking papers. She'll be the first one to tell you it wasn't worth it.


----------



## Wolf1974

staystrong said:


> At least she admitted it.
> 
> I think this happens VERY often at the start, but it's not something people tell their friends and family. Because most people would find that idea repellent. So it becomes "I was unhappy and fell in love" or something of the sort.


Or when caught. Cause as you say she isn't going to tell her mom and friends, hey I was just bored in life and wanted to have some fun so I ****ed this guy as work. What she did do was lie about me telling them things like I was mean and controlling. Had me so mixed up I thought it was her truth and that I had become someone I didn't think I was. 

Then when the truth comes out that It really was all her. I gave her the choice to call all her family members and set them straight about what she lied about or I would post the proof on Facebook. Then and only then she admitted this was her wrong doing.

I honestly believe had I never found out about the affair that to this day she would have had me convinced I was emotionally abusing her. Never would have told me the truth just let me wallow in the thought I destroyed our marriage. A piece of work that one was


----------



## Wolf1974

Healer said:


> Yup. Mine got bored of the routine. Got sick of being a mom, working, the sameness. Simply boredom. She was thrill seeking. That's what happens with life. You get married, you have kids, you work. A routine develops, you have responsibilities. I accepted that and many, many people can/do. My stbxw was a selfish thrill-seeker. Doesn't mean there's necessarily something terribly wrong with the marriage.
> 
> She got her thrill. And her walking papers. She'll be the first one to tell you it wasn't worth it.


Well then that's 3 of us. Guess not all that uncommon then huh


----------



## Regret214

I wasn't very happy when I was in my affair.

That is the lie I continued to tell myself. I clouded my own judgement with feeble rationale. I see now what I could've lost. As Paladin stated, it was a coping mechanism. A horribly wrong and inappropriate coping mechanism.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Paladin

I understand why it may be so difficult to see a marriage as anything but "healthy" from the point of view of a spouse who was oblivious to the internal issues, problems, and other contributing factors, of their WS. They are not mind readers, they can't address issues that are unstated and never openly discussed. No matter how hard a person tries, they can not have a healthy marriage solo. So even if the marriage seemed healthy, and even if a WS says " there was nothing wrong, I was just <pick whatever excuse>," the fact that they cheated, indicates that the marriage was not healthy, because they themselves were not healthy, and for whatever unhealthy reason, did not adequately help their spouse see it before choosing to cope in a dysfunctional way with their internal issues.

TLDR: The marriage could not have been healthy if one of the spouses was unhealthy enough to cheat.


----------



## Healer

Paladin said:


> TLDR: The marriage could not have been healthy if one of the spouses was unhealthy enough to cheat.


Total and complete rubbish. Plenty of people are f*cked up despite healthy surroundings. There are people who are d*ckheads at work and suck at their job despite having a great job in a healthy work environment. 

Your assertion completely removes any personal accountability. People are responsible for their own actions. People can be "unhealthy" despite a healthy environment or circumstance.


----------



## Faeleaf

I read what Paladin said a little different than that, Healer. 

A marriage is comprised of only two people. If one of those two is a garbage human being, then 50% of the marriage is unhealthy, by definition. No matter how hard the one healthy spouse tries, they can't make a "healthy" marriage with someone who is completely messed up. They may think they have (especially if the messed up person is GREAT at hiding their dysfunction) but they cannot. In the end, it all comes falling apart. 

"If only half of an onion is black with rot, it's still a rotten onion." That's from ASOIAF somewhere, but I don't remember more than that. I think that's what Paladin was trying to say. If half the marriage is composed of a garbage cheater, it wasn't a healthy marriage. 

A healthy marriage requires two healthy people. This is not casting blame on the healthy spouse, or absolving the guilty party of blame...just the opposite actually. But one amazing spouse does not equal a healthy marriage.


----------



## honcho

Paladin said:


> I understand why it may be so difficult to see a marriage as anything but "healthy" from the point of view of a spouse who was oblivious to the internal issues, problems, and other contributing factors, of their WS. They are not mind readers, they can't address issues that are unstated and never openly discussed. No matter how hard a person tries, they can not have a healthy marriage solo. So even if the marriage seemed healthy, and even if a WS says " there was nothing wrong, I was just <pick whatever excuse>," the fact that they cheated, indicates that the marriage was not healthy, because they themselves were not healthy, and for whatever unhealthy reason, did not adequately help their spouse see it before choosing to cope in a dysfunctional way with their internal issues.
> 
> TLDR: The marriage could not have been healthy if one of the spouses was unhealthy enough to cheat.


You are completely wrong in this assumption.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Wolf1974 said:


> Well then that's 3 of us. Guess not all that uncommon then huh


Four of us.

On DDay WH cried in my arms and told me I was a woman to good for him and the only reason he betrayed me was because he was simply fvcked in the head.


----------



## Wolf1974

Paladin said:


> I understand why it may be so difficult to see a marriage as anything but "healthy" from the point of view of a spouse who was oblivious to the internal issues, problems, and other contributing factors, of their WS. They are not mind readers, they can't address issues that are unstated and never openly discussed. No matter how hard a person tries, they can not have a healthy marriage solo. So even if the marriage seemed healthy, and even if a WS says " there was nothing wrong, I was just <pick whatever excuse>," the fact that they cheated, indicates that the marriage was not healthy, because they themselves were not healthy, and for whatever unhealthy reason, did not adequately help their spouse see it before choosing to cope in a dysfunctional way with their internal issues.
> 
> TLDR: The marriage could not have been healthy if one of the spouses was unhealthy enough to cheat.


You are missing the point though. I and a few others have stated their were no issues, relationship was fine. I am not in denial about this I lived it. We were in process of buying a new house, planning a vacation, and organinzing her sisters 40th birthday. We worked out together, spent time as a family and had date nights every weekend. Everything was good on Nov 1st. Nov 5 this guy gets transferred into her department. Nov 15th she and him start an emotional affair. Nov 25 all hell breaks loose and she looses her temper with me 3 times over the thanksgiving weekend. Nov 30th she tells me she wants a divorce. Somewhere in there the physical affair started but not sure when. 

The person i married to was unhealthy. Had nothing to do with the state of the marriage. No matter what she was going to cheat eventually just happend to be at this point and time and with this guy.

And again all this she has admitted to


----------



## vellocet

Wolf1974 said:


> You are missing the point though. I and a few others have stated their were no issues, relationship was fine.


No no no. There has to be some sort of out for the WS. Something they can cite as the problem on the BS's side.


----------



## bandit.45

Wolf1974 said:


> You are missing the point though. I and a few others have stated their were no issues, relationship was fine. I am not in denial about this I lived it. We were in process of buying a new house, planning a vacation, and organinzing her sisters 40th birthday. We worked out together, spent time as a family and had date nights every weekend. Everything was good on Nov 1st. Nov 5 this guy gets transferred into her department. Nov 15th she and him start an emotional affair. Nov 25 all hell breaks loose and she looses her temper with me 3 times over the thanksgiving weekend. Nov 30th she tells me she wants a divorce. Somewhere in there the physical affair started but not sure when.
> 
> The person i married to was unhealthy. Had nothing to do with the state of the marriage. No matter what she was going to cheat eventually just happend to be at this point and time and with this guy.
> 
> And again all this she has admitted to


Wolf there are those here on TAM who believe, to the very core of their souls, that the only reason a spouse cheats is because there is something lacking in the marriage, and by inference, that what is lacking is the fault of the BS. 

You are not going to sway these people. 

They do not believe that people can simply give in to the more lurid human drives such as lust, covetousness, immorality and avarice. 

Your WW most likely gave into lust and sexual desire. She met the guy, was attracted to him, they seduced each other and they had an affair. It had nothing to do with what you were or were not doing in your marriage. It had nothing to do with the health of your marriage. It had everything to do with your WW's sense of entitlement, poor boundaries and immorality.


----------



## sidney2718

Maricha75 said:


> Seriously???
> Give it up, JLD. You're not going to grasp the concept. And all you're going to do is further p!ss people of on this subject.


I don't think being nasty is helpful. JLD is entitled to her opionions and may, for all any of us know, be right in this case.


----------



## sidney2718

pidge70 said:


> I think she gets off on it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now now, be nice.

More seriously, this is a serious thread. Please don't thread jack it with snark.


----------



## bandit.45

sidney2718 said:


> Now now, be nice.
> 
> More seriously, this is a serious thread. Please don't thread jack it with snark.


Your avatar is a snark.


----------



## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> It wasn't anything different than what jld said, she just chose to keep it in general while knowing exactly to whom she is referring.


Of course it was different. A general comment is one thing. Folks can take it or leave it. A direct comment is just that, direct and difficult to ignore. That's why a direct attack is against TAM rules.



> Just said it shows a lot about her character. She wanted to say that about men, so jump on her about it. Oh wait, you won't. Never mind.


I won't because it is two different cases.


----------



## sidney2718

Healer said:


> And I'd like to express my thanks to all the rest of the posters, who wouldn't stand for the few "open minded" who blame shifted onto the BS and basically justified cheating.


I'd be greatful if you would point us at some posts in which "open minded" people blame shifted onto the BS and basically justified cheating.


----------



## doubletrouble

A wayward can be completely ethical. And immoral at the same time. 

Go ahead, aim your bricks at me! 


An ethical person knows cheating is wrong. 
A moral person doesn't cheat.


----------



## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> But your opinion as a fWS doesn't count. Too inconvenient.


Of course her opinion counts. It counts as her opinion, not a universal truth. It is just like your opinion or mine. Neither are universal truths.


----------



## sidney2718

Maricha75 said:


> But... I am a woman, therefore weak. My opinion MUST count! It must!!


Of course it counts. It is YOUR OPINION.


----------



## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> Now now, watch that venom, "poophead" :ezpi_wink1:


If that's supposed to be funny, it isn't.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



sidney2718 said:


> Of course her opinion counts. It counts as her opinion, not a universal truth. It is just like your opinion or mine. Neither are universal truths.


... it was sarcasm. Even I got it.


----------



## sidney2718

Paladin said:


> I understand why it may be so difficult to see a marriage as anything but "healthy" from the point of view of a spouse who was oblivious to the internal issues, problems, and other contributing factors, of their WS.


Bingo! That's it in a nutshell.



> They are not mind readers, they can't address issues that are unstated and never openly discussed. No matter how hard a person tries, they can not have a healthy marriage solo. So even if the marriage seemed healthy, and even if a WS says " there was nothing wrong, I was just <pick whatever excuse>," the fact that they cheated, indicates that the marriage was not healthy, because they themselves were not healthy, and for whatever unhealthy reason, did not adequately help their spouse see it before choosing to cope in a dysfunctional way with their internal issues.
> 
> TLDR: The marriage could not have been healthy if one of the spouses was unhealthy enough to cheat.


----------



## nickgtg

sidney2718 said:


> If that's supposed to be funny, it isn't.



Lighten up Francis.


----------



## sidney2718

Healer said:


> Total and complete rubbish. Plenty of people are f*cked up despite healthy surroundings. There are people who are d*ckheads at work and suck at their job despite having a great job in a healthy work environment.
> 
> Your assertion completely removes any personal accountability. People are responsible for their own actions. People can be "unhealthy" despite a healthy environment or circumstance.


You are right. And this also can apply to the husband whose wife has had an affair.

The notion that the BS is always right and contributed nothing to the dysfunction in a family just won't hold water.

Lack of communication is one of the most prevalent problems in marriages. The spouses don't communicate. So that one spouse isn't even aware of the issues the other spouse has.

One argument I often hear on CWI is "I work long hours at my job, I keep a roof over our heads and I bring in enough money to take care of my family. I've done my job, but she cheated anyway."


----------



## sidney2718

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Four of us.
> 
> On DDay WH cried in my arms and told me I was a woman to good for him and the only reason he betrayed me was because he was simply fvcked in the head.


Of course he did. If he'd read you a list of problems he'd had with you, would you have taken him back?

On DDay the WS is trying to placate his BS. That's what is going on. Does that mean that the affair is justified? Absolutely not. Does that mean that except for the affair the marriage was happy/ Absolutely not.

Those are my opinions. Your mileage may vary.


----------



## Wolf1974

bandit.45 said:


> Wolf there are those here on TAM who believe, to the very core of their souls, that the only reason a spouse cheats is because there is something lacking in the marriage, and by inference, that what is lacking is the fault of the BS.
> 
> *You are not going to sway these people*.
> 
> They do not believe that people can simply give in to the more lurid human drives such as lust, covetousness, immorality and avarice.
> 
> Your WW most likely gave into lust and sexual desire. She met the guy, was attracted to him, they seduced each other and they had an affair. It had nothing to do with what you were or were not doing in your marriage. It had nothing to do with the health of your marriage. It had everything to do with your WW's sense of entitlement, poor boundaries and immorality.


I can see your right. It's sometimes difficult to see how naive some people can be. I hear over and over preached and preached that BS should listen to WS. But seems they are the ones that don't want to listen. Sad really but does prove the point of cheater types being self absorbed. 

Which is again why the WS who do come here and own thier **** 
Are respected. They are just very very few


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> You are missing the point though. I and a few others have stated their were no issues, relationship was fine. I am not in denial about this I lived it. We were in process of buying a new house, planning a vacation, and organinzing her sisters 40th birthday. We worked out together, spent time as a family and had date nights every weekend. Everything was good on Nov 1st. Nov 5 this guy gets transferred into her department. Nov 15th she and him start an emotional affair. Nov 25 all hell breaks loose and she looses her temper with me 3 times over the thanksgiving weekend. Nov 30th she tells me she wants a divorce. Somewhere in there the physical affair started but not sure when.
> 
> The person i married to was unhealthy. Had nothing to do with the state of the marriage. No matter what she was going to cheat eventually just happend to be at this point and time and with this guy.
> 
> And again all this she has admitted to


I'm sure that happened as you say. Did you ever find out why she decided to cheat with that guy at that point in time?


----------



## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> No no no. There has to be some sort of out for the WS. Something they can cite as the problem on the BS's side.


Why would that be an out? Don't you agree that the responsibility for the affair belongs to the wandering spouse?


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> I'm sure that happened as you say. Did you ever find out why she decided to cheat with that guy at that point in time?


Yes as I stated she was bored with her life, it had become routine and he flirted with her. She reciprocated and cheated. I stated all that


----------



## sidney2718

bandit.45 said:


> Wolf there are those here on TAM who believe, to the very core of their souls, that the only reason a spouse cheats is because there is something lacking in the marriage, and by inference, that what is lacking is the fault of the BS.


I agree with the first sentence. I do NOT believe the inference you attach to it. Each marriage is different. 



> You are not going to sway these people.


I don't believe that there are any such people that say that the cheating is the fault of the BS.



> They do not believe that people can simply give in to the more lurid human drives such as lust, covetousness, immorality and avarice.


Lust I can believe. Covetousness is harder, what is it that the WS is coveting? Immorality isn't a thing, it is a description of the moral status of the affair. And avarice? She's being paid for sex? That I can believe too.



> Your WW most likely gave into lust and sexual desire. She met the guy, was attracted to him, they seduced each other and they had an affair. It had nothing to do with what you were or were not doing in your marriage. It had nothing to do with the health of your marriage. It had everything to do with your WW's sense of entitlement, poor boundaries and immorality.


You are probably right. Of course the husband might have supplied a bit of lust and increased sexual desire... But that doesn't excuse the affair. And I note that we've gone from being gender neutral to it being the fault of the wife.


----------



## sidney2718

nickgtg said:


> Lighten up Francis.


I'm light. Infidelity is a difficult subject to discuss. Poopheadism makes it almost impossible. So I'd rather leave it out.


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> I can see your right. It's sometimes difficult to see how naive some people can be. I hear over and over preached and preached that BS should listen to WS. But seems they are the ones that don't want to listen. Sad really but does prove the point of cheater types being self absorbed.
> 
> Which is again why the WS who do come here and own thier ****
> Are respected. They are just very very few


I think you are confusing two things. If the couple decides to reconcile, THEN and only THEN does the BS need to listen to the WS. They have to work out their problems. If they are not going to reconcile, the BS doesn't have to give the WS the time of day.

As for the WS not coming here, I think that this thread has given ample reason for them not to. It is too bad because the mission of TAM is to try to save marriages, not destroy them.


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> I agree with the first sentence. I do NOT believe the inference you attach to it. Each marriage is different.
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't believe that there are any such people that say that the cheating is the fault of the BS.*
> 
> 
> 
> Lust I can believe. Covetousness is harder, what is it that the WS is coveting? Immorality isn't a thing, it is a description of the moral status of the affair. And avarice? She's being paid for sex? That I can believe too.
> 
> [QUOTE}Your WW most likely gave into lust and sexual desire. She met the guy, was attracted to him, they seduced each other and they had an affair. It had nothing to do with what you were or were not doing in your marriage. It had nothing to do with the health of your marriage. It had everything to do with your WW's sense of entitlement, poor boundaries and immorality.


You are probably right. * Of course the husband might have supplied a bit of lust and increased sexual desire*... But that doesn't excuse the affair. And I note that we've gone from being gender neutral to it being the fault of the wife.[/QUOTE]

Sometimes ........just no words but Wow:slap:


----------



## pidge70

bandit.45 said:


> Your avatar is a snark.


:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> Yes as I stated she was bored with her life, it had become routine and he flirted with her. She reciprocated and cheated. I stated all that


Why was she bored? Did you and she have date nights? Did the two of you have a social life together? Were there any children? Endless questions.


----------



## pidge70

sidney2718 said:


> Now now, be nice.
> 
> More seriously, this is a serious thread. Please don't thread jack it with snark.


First of all, I wasn't being "snarky". I was stating my opinion. Secondly, this thread has been jacked by many others, you included.


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> I think you are confusing two things. If the couple decides to reconcile, THEN and only THEN does the BS need to listen to the WS. They have to work out their problems. If they are not going to reconcile, the BS doesn't have to give the WS the time of day.
> 
> As for the WS not coming here, I think that this thread has given ample reason for them not to. It is too bad because the mission of TAM is to try to save marriages, not destroy them.


No not confusing anything. I was speaking about the wayward posters here demanding that BS posters listen to their side of things. But seems they don't give what they ask for.

I further disagree about the WS not coming here and learning anything. Plenty of positive advice was given to Zanne about coming clean and ending the lies. She said she was going to tell her husband. I will be first to say I don't believe her for a second BUT if she actually does then I think that's great she is no longer living a lie. then she can save her marriage or hopefully let the guy go. Either way success out of staying in her fantasy world she created


----------



## pidge70

sidney2718 said:


> Why was she bored? Did you and she have date nights? Did the two of you have a social life together? Were there any children? Endless questions.


From Wolf post #1473



> You are missing the point though. I and a few others have stated their were no issues, relationship was fine. I am not in denial about this I lived it. *We were in process of buying a new house, planning a vacation, and organinzing her sisters 40th birthday. **We worked out together, spent time as a family and had date nights every weekend. *Everything was good on Nov 1st. Nov 5 this guy gets transferred into her department. Nov 15th she and him start an emotional affair. Nov 25 all hell breaks loose and she looses her temper with me 3 times over the thanksgiving weekend. Nov 30th she tells me she wants a divorce. Somewhere in there the physical affair started but not sure when.
> 
> The person i married to was unhealthy. Had nothing to do with the state of the marriage. No matter what she was going to cheat eventually just happend to be at this point and time and with this guy.
> 
> And again all this she has admitted to


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> Why was she bored? Did you and she have date nights? Did the two of you have a social life together? Were there any children? Endless questions.


Yep every wed in house date and every weekend a night out

Yep we went out with other couples often and also with family when they were in town. Also involved in two charities and church

2 kids she left with me


----------



## pidge70

Wolf1974 said:


> Yep every wed in house date and every weekend a night out
> 
> Yep we went out with other couples often and also with family when they were in town. Also involved in two charities and church
> 
> 2 kids she left with me


I'm so sorry.


----------



## Wolf1974

pidge70 said:


> I'm so sorry.


Thanks Pidge. Has been a tough few years to say the least. I have through counseling healed but will always feel guilt for my kiddos. I should have picked them a better mom.


----------



## xakulax

bandit.45 said:


> Wolf *there are those here on TAM who believe, to the very core of their souls, that the only reason a spouse cheats is because there is something lacking in the marriage, and by inference, that what is lacking is the fault of the BS. *
> 
> You are not going to sway these people.



:iagree:


And yet no one ever asked what was lacking in the wayward spouse during the marriage or affair was the wayward spouse meeting their partners needs were they doing the things to make the marriage work of course not but lets not talk about that because that type of thinking leads to the slippery slope of responsibility and accountability and we can't have that if the goal is to sell R and that is the goal of this type of thinking..



To me this type of thinking is nothing more than a new form of Stockholm Syndrome identify with your attacker and blame yourself for your problems sorry but I refuse to turn my brain off because someone decided to take there pants off


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> JLD is entitled to her opionions and may, for all any of us know, be right in this case.


Actually she's not, she's banned.

And when she wasn't, she couldn't be more wrong.


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> Now now, be nice.
> 
> More seriously, this is a serious thread. Please don't thread jack it with snark.


No, she actually gets off on it. If you can't see that, well...


----------



## Paladin

It's like a broken record here. Even when a person takes the time to choose words carefully, the desperation of some to interpret everything as a justification for an affair just over rides their common sense. No where do I say that a WS is not responsible for their dysfunctional coping mechanisms and their choice to cheat, but I guess its just easier to put words in someones mouth and then call those words wrong.

It is not possible to have a healthy marriage if both spouses are not healthy, since it takes both of them putting in effort to make it work. If thinking everything was perfect and the WS just randomly decided to ruin it out of spite helps you cope, have at it.


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> I'd be greatful if you would point us at some posts in which "open minded" people blame shifted onto the BS and basically justified cheating.


Absolutely. I'll get my best people on it.


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> Of course it counts. It is YOUR OPINION.


Sarcasm is a bit lost on you, huh?


----------



## soulpotato

xakulax said:


> And yet no one ever asked what was lacking in the wayward spouse during the marriage or affair was the wayward spouse meeting their partners needs were they doing the things to make the marriage work of course not but lets not talk about that because that type of thinking leads to the slippery slope of responsibility and accountability and we can't have that if the goal is to sell R and that is the goal of this type of thinking..


Since when does no one ask that? There's a huge focus on that. It seems it's often assumed that everything pre-affair is the lack or fault of the WS. Why is all of the responsibility of the relationship on the WS? I know there's talk of the 50/50, but it seems a lot of people here assume that the WS is making up any problems that existed in the relationship or any suffering they might have experienced pre-affair and that if it sucked, it was because _they_ sucked and weren't working hard enough. It's a very invalidating attitude, and can be a very inaccurate assumption/generalization.


----------



## soulpotato

Faeleaf said:


> A marriage is comprised of only two people. *If one of those two is a garbage human being*, then 50% of the marriage is unhealthy, by definition. No matter how hard the one healthy spouse tries, they can't make a "healthy" marriage with someone who is completely messed up. They may think they have (especially if the messed up person is GREAT at hiding their dysfunction) but they cannot. In the end, it all comes falling apart.
> 
> "If only half of an onion is black with rot, it's still a rotten onion." That's from ASOIAF somewhere, but I don't remember more than that. I think that's what Paladin was trying to say. *If half the marriage is composed of a garbage cheater*, it wasn't a healthy marriage.
> 
> A healthy marriage requires two healthy people. This is not casting blame on the healthy spouse, or absolving the guilty party of blame...just the opposite actually. But *one amazing spouse* does not equal a healthy marriage.


"A garbage human being"? So someone who cheats is automatically a garbage human being and the betrayed partner is automatically amazing? Or what? Help me out here. I don't want to assume that's what you meant - I surely hope it isn't - but I'm not able to interpret that any other way at the moment.

FWIW, I think very few people are "garbage".

P.S. Unhealthy people almost always choose other unhealthy people. It's rare that one half of a couple is immaculate and shining with psychological health and the other is "rotten". If we're going to totally polarize human beings, that is.


----------



## lenzi

sidney2718 said:


> the mission of TAM is to try to save marriages, not destroy them.


Where does it say that?


----------



## Wolf1974

soulpotato said:


> *"A garbage human being"? So someone who cheats is automatically a garbage human being and the betrayed partner is automatically amazing*? Or what? Help me out here. I don't want to assume that's what you meant - I surely hope it isn't - but I'm not able to interpret that any other way at the moment.
> 
> FWIW, I think very few people are "garbage".
> 
> P.S. Unhealthy people almost always choose other unhealthy people. It's rare that one half of a couple is immaculate and shining with psychological health and the other is "rotten". If we're going to totally polarize human beings, that is.


First part I would say is 90% true. I was leaning toward 100% but then I came to TAM and met some truly remorseful WS so that changed.

The other 1/2 is like any humans and probably 50\50. But if they didn't cheat at least they aren't that


----------



## xakulax

soulpotato said:


> Since when does no one ask that? There's a huge focus on that. It seems it's *often assumed that everything pre-affair is the lack or fault of the WS. Why is all of the responsibility of the relationship on the WS?* I know there's talk of the 50/50, but it seems a lot of people here assume that the WS is making up any problems that existed in the relationship or any suffering they might have experienced pre-affair and that if it sucked, it was because _they_ sucked and weren't working hard enough. It's a very invalidating attitude, and can be a very inaccurate assumption/generalization.




Well seeing how both spouses have a voice in the relationship and seeing how unless you're being physically prevented from speaking you have the ability to voice your concerns of any issues within the marriage if something is lacking if something is deficient you should bring that issue up to try have resolved before committing adultery if the spouse refuses to listen and address the problems then you have options to leave a marriage You can't use the argument that because there are problems in the marriage that you chose to ignore/not address as an excuse to commit adultery...


----------



## soulpotato

xakulax said:


> Well seeing how both spouses have a voice in the relationship and seeing how unless you're being physically prevented from speaking you have the ability to voice your concerns of any issues within the marriage if something is lacking if something is deficient you should bring that issue up to try have resolved before committing adultery if the spouse refuses to listen and address the problems then you have options to leave a marriage You can't use the argument that because there are problems in the marriage that you chose to ignore/not address as an excuse to commit adultery...


I DID bring the issues up, repeatedly. See, there's that assumption again. The affair *is* the fault and responsibility of the WS, but *poor relationship conditions are a shared responsibility* and NOT the WS' sole responsibility. Not leaving/staying doesn't make _the pre-A relationship_ 100% of the WS' responsibility.

Where did I ever say it was an excuse to cheat? Sheesh, Paladin is right about you guys. You don't even read what's being said and take everything as excusing cheating even though that's NOT what was said at all. I didn't make that argument. I hate it when people attempt to put words in my mouth.

For the record, I wasn't the one who ignored the problems - my betrayed partner ignored the problems and fought with me just so she could continue ignoring them. Yes, I should have left, and no, I did not say ANYTHING to excuse cheating. I specified "pre-affair". I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat myself...


----------



## soulpotato

Wolf1974 said:


> First part I would say is 90% true. I was leaning toward 100% but then I came to TAM and met some truly remorseful WS so that changed.
> 
> The other 1/2 is like any humans and probably 50\50. But if they didn't cheat at least they aren't that


Well, at least there's that. 

There are lots of bad things to be. A cheater is one of them, yes. I don't want to revisit my earlier point about this with regard to good/bad people, etc, etc.


----------



## bandit.45

Paladin said:


> It's like a broken record here. Even when a person takes the time to choose words carefully, the desperation of some to interpret everything as a justification for an affair just over rides their common sense. No where do I say that a WS is not responsible for their dysfunctional coping mechanisms and their choice to cheat, but I guess its just easier to put words in someones mouth and then call those words wrong.
> 
> It is not possible to have a healthy marriage if both spouses are not healthy, since it takes both of them putting in effort to make it work. If thinking everything was perfect and the WS just randomly decided to ruin it out of spite helps you cope, have at it.


Paladin I snooped around he Wayward Section of SI the other day and saw a thread from a WW and she and another WW were talking about how hard it was to open up to their betrayed husbands about what they wanted in the marriage, despite the fact that their husbands were begging them to open up to them and tell them their deepest desires. These women could not figure out why they couldn't stand up for their desires and just be honest with their spouses.

It all came down to them being ashamed to voice their wants and desires to their husbands out of some imagined belief thath their husbands would scoff at them or be offended. They also added that they were surprised how accepting and understanding their husbands were when they eventually DID express these desires. They were flabbergasted actually, and the realization that their husbands were caring individuals who valued their wives' opinions ended up making these women feel even MORE GUILTY and this even more afraid to share. 

Isn't that interesting. Here these women based having their affairs on the false belief that their husbands didn't cRe about their needs, when in actuality it was their own inability and fear of expressing themselves that led the down the rabbit hole into adultery. 

So my thinking is this: it is more often the wayward spouse who has the hangup that precludes them from sharing their needs with their partners. I would go out on a limb to postulate that it is the wayward spouse who booby traps their own marriage, by not bringing their needs to their partners, who are usually oblivious that there is a problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

soulpotato said:


> I DID bring the issues up, repeatedly. See, there's that assumption again. The affair *is* the fault and responsibility of the WS, but *poor relationship conditions are a shared responsibility* and NOT the WS' sole responsibility. Not leaving/staying doesn't make _the pre-A relationship_ 100% of the WS' responsibility.
> 
> Where did I ever say it was an excuse to cheat? Sheesh, Paladin is right about you guys. You don't even read what's being said and take everything as excusing cheating even though that's NOT what was said at all. I didn't made that argument. I hate it when people attempt to put words in my mouth.
> 
> For the record, I wasn't the one who ignored the problems - my betrayed partner ignored the problems and fought with me just so she could continue ignoring them. Yes, I should have left, and no, I did not say ANYTHING to excuse cheating. I specified "pre-affair". I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat myself...


Dude you can play with the words all you want. You are just noodling with semantics. You are still trying to shift some of the blame for the affair onto your wife. 

It's not going to work man. You cant spin it here with us. 

You went out and banged another woman because you damn well wanted to. You had every opportunity to divorce your selfish wife and find a more suitable woman. You didn't. She may have been mean and selfish, but that is a completely separate issue from your cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

sidney2718 said:


> Of course he did. If he'd read you a list of problems he'd had with you, would you have taken him back?
> 
> *On DDay the WS is trying to placate his BS.* That's what is going on. Does that mean that the affair is justified? Absolutely not. Does that mean that except for the affair the marriage was happy/ Absolutely not.
> 
> Those are my opinions. Your mileage may vary.



Lol! You have no idea whether he was "placating" me or being completely honest. 

IIRC you have zero personal experience with infidelity and therefore your inexperienced opinions are completely irrelevant to me. 

For this reason, you are now on ignore.


----------



## pidge70

bandit.45 said:


> Dude you can play with the words all you want. You are just noodling with semantics. You are still trying to shift some of the blame for the affair onto your wife.
> 
> It's not going to work man. You cant spin it here with us.
> 
> You went out and banged another woman because you damn well wanted to. You had every opportunity to divorce your selfish wife and find a more suitable woman. You didn't. She may have been mean and selfish, but that is a completely separate issue from your cheating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


SP is a woman....ftr
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

bandit.45 said:


> Dude you can play with the words all you want. You are just noodling with semantics. You are still trying to shift some of the blame for the affair onto your wife.
> 
> It's not going to work man. You cant spin it here with us.
> 
> You went out and banged another woman because you damn well wanted to. You had every opportunity to divorce your selfish wife and find a more suitable woman. You didn't. She may have been mean and selfish, but that is a completely separate issue from your cheating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really hope you're joking...!


----------



## soulpotato

pidge70 said:


> SP is a woman....ftr
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Among other things. I really hope he is being funny!


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

bandit.45 said:


> It all came down to them being ashamed to voice their wants and desires to their husbands out of some imagined belief thath their husbands would scoff at them or be offended. They also added that they were surprised how accepting and understanding their husbands were when they eventually DID express these desires. They were flabbergasted actually, and the realization that their husbands were caring individuals who valued their wives' opinions ended up making these women feel even MORE GUILTY and this even more afraid to share.
> 
> Isn't that interesting. Here these women based having their affairs on the false belief that their husbands didn't cRe about their needs, when in actuality it was their own inability and fear of expressing themselves that led the down the rabbit hole into adultery.
> 
> *So my thinking is this: it is more often the wayward spouse who has the hangup that precludes them from sharing their needs with their partners. I would go out on a limb to postulate that it is the wayward spouse who booby traps their own marriage, by not bringing their needs to their partners, who are usually oblivious that there is a problem.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excellent stuff Bandit. This is exactly what happened to my WH and this is what he acknowledges all the time. 

This is STILL what he struggles with every day. We both struggle with it, because I plead with him to tell me how he feels and what his needs are and it's like pulling teeth! 

We actually got into this exact same thing this morning. 

I KNOW that unless he can open up to me more, our R is doomed, because I'm getting more and more tired of putting all the emotional energy into it, while he keeps his feelings and needs mostly to himself.


----------



## soulpotato

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> This is STILL what he struggles with every day. We both struggle with it, because I plead with him to tell me how he feels and what his needs are and it's like pulling teeth!


It makes me sad to read things like this. I hope he learns to tell you what he feels and needs. It's wonderful that you want to listen - that you are still willing to listen.


----------



## xakulax

Communication is the cornerstone of any relationship it cannot survive without it a spouse with the inability or unwillingness to share their deepest emotional needs and desires is someone who's already checked out other relationship in my opinion...


----------



## Thundarr

soulpotato said:


> I DID bring the issues up, repeatedly. See, there's that assumption again. The affair *is* the fault and responsibility of the WS, but *poor relationship conditions are a shared responsibility* and NOT the WS' sole responsibility. Not leaving/staying doesn't make _the pre-A relationship_ 100% of the WS' responsibility.
> 
> Where did I ever say it was an excuse to cheat? Sheesh, Paladin is right about you guys. You don't even read what's being said and take everything as excusing cheating even though that's NOT what was said at all. I didn't made that argument. I hate it when people attempt to put words in my mouth.
> 
> For the record, I wasn't the one who ignored the problems - my betrayed partner ignored the problems and fought with me just so she could continue ignoring them. Yes, I should have left, and no, I did not say ANYTHING to excuse cheating. I specified "pre-affair". I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat myself...


We are not good at separating issues. That's a human problem; not a TAM problem. But smart people learn from mistakes and usually there's blame to assume for everyone once we separate it into pieces. That's all we can do though; analyze and determine where we made bad choices and not make the same bad choices again.

I can preach all day long that my EX was destined to cheat and would be a serial cheater until her vjj stops working (that's true BTW). But that didn't give me a free pass to ignore my own shortcomings. Any person looking to avoid repeated mistakes has to learn something. If nothing else, they learn to see the red flags they were blind to.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

soulpotato said:


> It makes me sad to read things like this. I hope he learns to tell you what he feels and needs. It's wonderful that you want to listen - that you are still willing to listen.


Thank you SP. 

I feel we are at a crossroads. I've told him that. 

He's told me he is going back into IC, because he knows I've reached my limit with his withholding from our relationship.

I can walk away knowing there was nothing I could have done that I didn't do. 

It saddens me because I do love him, but even a worm will turn.


----------



## Thundarr

bandit.45 said:


> Dude you can play with the words all you want. You are just noodling with semantics. You are still trying to shift some of the blame for the affair onto your wife.
> 
> It's not going to work man. You cant spin it here with us.
> 
> You went out and banged another woman because you damn well wanted to. You had every opportunity to divorce your selfish wife and find a more suitable woman. You didn't. She may have been mean and selfish, but that is a completely separate issue from your cheating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again.... separation of issues. It BSs assume the "high ground" label of BS and then throw all blame at the WS then they (we) don't learn or grow.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Thundarr said:


> *We are not good at separating issues. That's a human problem; not a TAM problem.* But smart people learn from mistakes and usually there's blame to assume for everyone once we separate it into pieces. That's all we can do though; analyze and determine where we made bad choices and not make the same bad choices again.
> 
> I can preach all day long that my EX was destined to cheat and would be a serial cheater until her vjj stops working (that's true BTW). But that didn't give me a free pass to ignore my own shortcomings. Any person looking to avoid repeated mistakes has to learn something. If nothing else, they learn to see the red flags they were blind to.


Nice post Thundarr. But the bolded is so correct. The middle way seems to be the most difficult.


----------



## soulpotato

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Thank you SP.
> 
> I feel we are at a crossroads. I've told him that.
> 
> He's told me he is going back into IC, because he knows I've reached my limit with his withholding from our relationship.
> 
> I can walk away knowing there was nothing I could have done that I didn't do.
> 
> It saddens me because I do love him, but even a worm will turn.


Good, I'm glad he has made the choice to go back into IC. I only hope it is soon enough. It's tough when you feel you've reached your limit. You never know exactly when it will happen, or how much time will be left when you realize you're nearly there.

It is sad. All of it is sad.


----------



## lenzi

soulpotato said:


> I really hope you're joking...!


Sounds pretty serious to me.

So what he didn't know you're a female so he called you a dude and he assumed you're married.

Doesn't really change the thrust of his post, which was pretty much spot on.

You're blameshifting and justifying to some degree by saying your partner was ignorant to the problems and didn't want to fix things.


----------



## soulpotato

lenzi said:


> Sounds pretty serious to me.
> 
> So what he didn't know you're a female so he called you a dude and he assumed you're married.
> 
> Doesn't really change the thrust of his post, which was pretty much spot on.
> 
> You're blameshifting and justifying to some degree by saying your partner was ignorant to the problems and didn't want to fix things.


It's hard to take it seriously when it sounds so absurd and every detail is wrong other than the most general fact that I cheated. It really sounded like a bad joke to me.

I don't see how talking about the reality of the relationship was blame-shifting, especially when I specifically said that the cheating was all on me. I was complaining about how the crappy relationship is dumped on the WS' head as their responsibility once they cheat. Which I totally disagree with. Both partners/spouses are responsible for the relationship. (And it's true that my partner didn't want to fix things. She wasn't ignorant of the problems, because I was quite chatty about them for a long time. She wanted to avoid them - I think she thought they would just go away, and hoped I would stop talking about it. We both lacked relationship skills.)

In addition, I disagree with everything he said, and I think his post is far off the mark. I think some posters have justifying and blame-shifting on the brain. Strange that my partner saw and felt my remorse. But I guess you guys would know me _far_ better than a partner I spent 10+ years with.


----------



## soulpotato

I guess since Zanne and JLD aren't available to harass anymore, it's my turn in the barrel...


----------



## Wolf1974

Funny how you look at it that way. I thought Zanne got a lot of good advice. Not sure she will take it though

As for JLD sorry but when you come out saying women get a free pass to cheat and men have to suck that up. Umm no


----------



## soulpotato

bandit.45 said:


> Dude you can play with the words all you want. You are just noodling with semantics. You are still trying to shift some of the blame for the affair onto your wife.
> 
> It's not going to work man. You cant spin it here with us.
> 
> You went out and banged another woman because you damn well wanted to. You had every opportunity to divorce your selfish wife and find a more suitable woman. You didn't. She may have been mean and selfish, but that is a completely separate issue from your cheating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay, I guess I have to assume that you are serious? Anyway, you are making tons of assumptions about me and know nothing about my story (argh, again in this thread, people not bothering to find anything out about a situation or a person before making assumptions). 

First of all, I had 3 overlapping EAs. No PAs. I'm not married, though I would've liked to have been. My partner was a woman. I'm (we're) gay. She is a good person, and while she can be very selfish (as I obviously can as well), I think it's more about being deep in the grip of her FOO issues than anything else. We both have enough FOO and other psychological issues to go around.

Everything is open to interpretation. I cannot help if you want to interpret my words differently from how I mean them. I already said (again, I am not even sure which # this is) that the relationship issues had nothing to do with my cheating. Am I not allowed to talk about relationship issues and joint responsibility for said issues because I cheated? That is automatically blame-shifting to say there were problems in my relationship? I do not know how to explain this apparently without getting some of you all excited. 

I'll try once more. The issues in the relationship with my partner did put pressure on my fracture points, which definitely affected me. That is a fact. My _responses_ to such stressors are not healthy ones, and I do not know my limits. My coping skills also apparently suck. *But I am still responsible for myself, and I made the wrong choices. I am 100% aware of this.* I have not spent all this time in therapy just to shrug off responsibility, be unaccountable, or to blame her for my behavior. You have not been present for any of my journey through this, nor have you even read enough of me to know I'm female. Which is just sad. But whatever, we're all internet strangers, can't expect anyone to care to learn, only to care enough to start with someone.

I am not sure what exactly you guys hope to achieve by trying to gang up on me. You want me to go away? You want me to shut up? What? Because I am already remorseful. You are not going to gain anything by targeting me. (Well, I guess it could be enjoyable for you.)


----------



## soulpotato

Wolf1974 said:


> Funny how you look at it that way. I thought Zanne got a lot of good advice. Not sure she will take it though
> 
> As for JLD sorry but when you come out saying women get a free pass to cheat and men have to suck that up. Umm no


I'm not commenting on what they were saying, merely that you guys seemed to be harassing them. This entire thread devolved to that at certain points. I'm also not saying good advice wasn't given sometimes, or by certain people. I view a negative pile-on of any sort as harassment. It's just the way I see it. I have no personal investment in it, so don't get me wrong. If you want me to go further, I disagreed with both of them.

Hopefully we'll be able to communicate here and people will actually read the words I am typing and not make assumptions as to my thoughts and feelings without asking.


----------



## wayword

Okay, I'll bite -- 

I've been chatting online and on the phone with men other than my husband. I got found out tonight when a 'friend' I usually can talk to texted me while he was home (he usually isn't around this time of night). 

I feel bad, yes. I wish I didn't feel I had to talk to other men about the kinds of things we do talk about -- mostly sex, and if I'm a bad wife/mom/person/woman for wanting it. My husband was brought up in a religious household and doesn't think you should talk about sex, and that nobody wants to have "long drawn out conversations". (except me, but I'm a "freak".) 

I'm not doing anything physical, but I know that doesn't excuse my behavior. I was -- am -- lonely, insecure, and needy. None attractive traits. I wanted someone to talk to -- and to feel, I don't know...like something besides a asexual old mother and a business partner of a wife. It was nice to flirt and talk about things I can't with anyone else. I thought i was sparing my husband uncomfortable things he didn't want to talk about but now I can't talk about them with *anyone*! He has television, a million channels i can't compete with, instead of talking to me.


----------



## Rookie4

Mr. Dee said:


> I had a happy well adjusted marriage. It was ME who wasn't well adjusted and I don't know what went wrong with me, still trying to figure that out. But I know that even during my affair I never had a single thing to complain about re my wife or my marriage. She's asked me many times, what did I go looking for that I didn't have, and there was nothing. I never felt anything was missing from her. I think I just wanted to find out if somebody who *didn't* love me would be attracted to me. Unfortunately yes. And then I didn't stop myself at that. Ugh.


If you were dissatisfied, then your marriage wasn't happy or well adjusted, was it?


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> Yup, just as you thought it would, hence your stated reason for starting this thread wasn't anything of the sort, just as I thought.
> 
> Many were fooled about that. I wasn't. It was obvious with the first post.


You think you know, but , of course , you don't.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Yep every wed in house date and every weekend a night out
> 
> Yep we went out with other couples often and also with family when they were in town. Also involved in two charities and church
> 
> 2 kids she left with me


My ex wife's affair took place after our kids were in college. I can only imagine how hard it would be with young ones. I sympathize with you.


----------



## Rookie4

wayword said:


> Okay, I'll bite --
> 
> I've been chatting online and on the phone with men other than my husband. I got found out tonight when a 'friend' I usually can talk to texted me while he was home (he usually isn't around this time of night).
> 
> I feel bad, yes. I wish I didn't feel I had to talk to other men about the kinds of things we do talk about -- mostly sex, and if I'm a bad wife/mom/person/woman for wanting it. My husband was brought up in a religious household and doesn't think you should talk about sex, and that nobody wants to have "long drawn out conversations". (except me, but I'm a "freak".)
> 
> I'm not doing anything physical, but I know that doesn't excuse my behavior. I was -- am -- lonely, insecure, and needy. None attractive traits. I wanted someone to talk to -- and to feel, I don't know...like something besides a asexual old mother and a business partner of a wife. It was nice to flirt and talk about things I can't with anyone else. I thought i was sparing my husband uncomfortable things he didn't want to talk about but now I can't talk about them with *anyone*! He has television, a million channels i can't compete with, instead of talking to me.


Welcome to TAM, Wayword. I hope you can learn to distinguish the helpful posters from the hateful ones.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Funny how you look at it that way. I thought Zanne got a lot of good advice. Not sure she will take it though
> 
> As for JLD sorry but when you come out saying women get a free pass to cheat and men have to suck that up. Umm no


She got a little good advice, plus a boatload of abuse and insults. I wonder which she will remember?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Wayword*
> I was -- am -- lonely, insecure, and needy


You are perceptive and brave to admit this!


*Do you think that your conversations and excitement with these men are going to help you get better with you being needy and insecure? *Maybe they will help you temporarily but why not ask some women who have done what you have done what will happen to you if you keep this up?


You are not a freak as many men and women like conversation with the opposite sex about sex. *It is not a matter of being a freak it is a matter of what will be best for you*. Most men get sexually excited when they talk to a woman about sex. I am a man and I can tell you that those men would like to bang you. I will also tell you as a man that those men that will bang a married woman do not give shyt about your insecurity and just want to use you for a sperm depository and get a freebie. That is not going to help your insecurity or your neediness.


You say that your husband is religious and does not want to talk about sex and flirt with you. Maybe your husband is a sex prude and not a flirt but do not allow yourself to rationalize and that it gives you a good reason to talk sex with other men. You already know that talking with those men make you feel bad and then you wonder if you are a good wife and mother. Lot of people get a temporary excitement when talking to the opposite sex about sex but what will be the result for you?


I am not trying to moralize you as I have talked to the opposite sex about sex and got a temporary charge out of it also. The bottom line is this.


*What is going to be the result f you keep talking to these men about sex?

Is talking to these men about sex going to help or hurt your insecurities?

Are you willing to risk losing your husband and 50% custody of your child over temporary excitements?

Do you think that these men would give a rat's AZZ about you?*



I want to compliment you for being honest and brave. However, being honest and brave is only half the actions you need to take. Now you have to find a way to STOP talking sex with other men. 


*There are positive ways to get better with your insecurities; there are a lot of resources to help you with those positive actions if you choose to utilize them*. . Talking with other men about sex will eventfully make you pay a big price for such cheap trills. I want to encourage you again to seek out the women on this TAM website that knows what talking to other men about sex will do to you in the future.


I hope you find a way to take the right actions. I do not want to read about you in the coming months crying, desperate, begging someone to help you stop a divorce and/or get 50% custody of your child. In addition, your insecurities will be be a lot worse than they are now.

If you get better with your insecurities you will not be dependant on other men to build you up. You will not be needy and compromise yourself with men that want to use you and when you want something from them they will dump you. *They do not care about you; you have to care about yourself!*


----------



## Maricha75

Wayword, you sound a lot like me. You want more, he doesn't understand and is happy with status quo. The difference between your husband and mine is that he is willing to talk about sex... but not have more sex. He was the one who thought sex was only for procreation when we first met. This doesn't make either of us freaks, wayword. And there is NOTHING wrong with wanting it and wanting to talk about it with your husband. NOTHING!

Now, how to get him to open up? Honestly, the only thing you can do is sit down with him, turn the TV OFF and talk frankly to him. Find out what his needs are and tell him yours... no matter how uncomfortable the conversation may be, you need to do it. And something he needs to come to terms with is the fact that talking about sex, sexual needs, etc. with your spouse is NOT the same thing as talking about it with some random stranger on the street. You are going to have a rough road ahead of you. But if you keep communication open with each other, you should be able to work through this... together.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> She got a little good advice, plus a boatload of abuse and insults. I wonder which she will remember?


On this thread, maybe. But in all the time she has been here... literally, YEARS, she has taken none of the advice. Advice she had repeated to her over the years. So, is she likely to remember the insults rather than the advice? More than likely. Not because there was SOOOOOOO MUCH of it, but because she enjoys the attention, enjoys attempting to play the martyr.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Maricha75 said:


> Wayword, you sound a lot like me. You want more, he doesn't understand and is happy with status quo. The difference between your husband and mine is that he is willing to talk about sex... but not have more sex. He was the one who thought sex was only for procreation when we first met. This doesn't make either of us freaks, wayword. And there is NOTHING wrong with wanting it and wanting to talk about it with your husband. NOTHING!
> 
> Now, how to get him to open up? Honestly, the only thing you can do is sit down with him, turn the TV OFF and talk frankly to him. Find out what his needs are and tell him yours... no matter how uncomfortable the conversation may be, you need to do it. And something he needs to come to terms with is the fact that talking about sex, sexual needs, etc. with your spouse is NOT the same thing as talking about it with some random stranger on the street. You are going to have a rough road ahead of you. But if you keep communication open with each other, you should be able to work through this... together.



Nice! I like!


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



soulpotato said:


> Since when does no one ask that? There's a huge focus on that. It seems it's often assumed that everything pre-affair is the lack or fault of the WS. Why is all of the responsibility of the relationship on the WS? I know there's talk of the 50/50, but it seems a lot of people here assume that the WS is making up any problems that existed in the relationship or any suffering they might have experienced pre-affair and that if it sucked, it was because _they_ sucked and weren't working hard enough. It's a very invalidating attitude, and can be a very inaccurate assumption/generalization.


We all have faults. We all have weaknesses and flaws. Do affairs occur in good marriages and relationships? I'm sure they do. I guess this is one of those instances where the picture truly is interpreted by the one viewing it. One spouse might see the relationship as good while another sees it only as good enough. There is a large disparity there. But good enough can become inadequate very easily but only for the person in question. Without total honesty, excellent communication and hard work there is no way to know how the other half is really feeling. I know I work very hard to constantly "learn" my wife's non verbal cues because words often fail to convey the full context of the meaning. As for invalidating the WS's marital pre affair issues, I think it has a lot to do with trust. After infidelity it is extremely difficult to trust that your husband/wife is telling the truth about their feelings and issues about the BS and the marriage in general. After all, most affairs come with a heaping helping of lies and deceit so by that time trust is very hard to come by.


----------



## Mr. Dee

Rookie4 said:


> Mr. Dee said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had a happy well adjusted marriage. It was ME who wasn't well adjusted and I don't know what went wrong with me, still trying to figure that out. But I know that even during my affair I never had a single thing to complain about re my wife or my marriage. She's asked me many times, what did I go looking for that I didn't have, and there was nothing. I never felt anything was missing from her. I think I just wanted to find out if somebody who didn't love me would be attracted to me. Unfortunately yes. And then I didn't stop myself at that. Ugh.
> 
> 
> 
> If you were dissatisfied, then your marriage wasn't happy or well adjusted, was it?
Click to expand...

I was not dissatisfied. I thought that explained I wasn't. I repeat, my marriage was happy. I cheated in spite of that.


----------



## wayword

Maricha75 said:


> Now, how to get him to open up? Honestly, the only thing you can do is sit down with him, turn the TV OFF and talk frankly to him. Find out what his needs are and tell him yours... no matter how uncomfortable the conversation may be, you need to do it. And something he needs to come to terms with is the fact that talking about sex, sexual needs, etc. with your spouse is NOT the same thing as talking about it with some random stranger on the street. You are going to have a rough road ahead of you. But if you keep communication open with each other, you should be able to work through this... together.


Thanks for the advice, though I am skeptical. 

I've tried talking to him about it. He says "he doesn't want to have 'those long, drawn-out conversations" and that "nobody talks about sex like [I do]". He says he doesn't have fantasies, and that sex should "Just happen" (no mental foreplay, no fun, no nothing). The last time I tried to talk to him about my needs he ended up in tears and angry, saying I wanted too much and he thought he was a good husband. I lied and agreed; I didn't want to seem greedy on top of everything else!! So I just met my (emotional) needs elsewhere. 

I told him on numerous occasions "I don't feel close to you" and "I'm lonely" and he whirls around on me with "Well what do you want to talk about?!" I didn't realize I needed a topic list. Over the years I've gotten so used to *not *talking to him that speaking to him about anything other than the baby or business/house stuff is awkward. 

We work opposite schedules and so we don't see each other during the workweek. I come home or spend time with my mom and daughter just to be around people, until the weekends, when I can be ignored in favor of the television (or on the off chance he wants sex). He is in IC, I can no longer afford it. We tried going to Couple's therapy before the baby but he just says I'm needy and he doesn't give compliments or flirt. 

Honestly, I feel a bit bereft and even angry. Now he can feel justified in keeping things as they are, and I'll just have to sit there and accept it in silence because he's got the moral high ground.


----------



## Maricha75

Wayword, mine is in IC as well. His is for other things he has been dealing with over the years. I have been able to sit in on a couple of sessions, but most of them are just him and his psych. We cannot afford couples therapy, so I started searching for help for me... and found TAM. 

Ugh! So much of what you have written sounds like my husband. I know you're skeptical, but you do need to do it. You NEED to make that connection, even if it brings him to tears. I've been in your shoes. But, I do want to say that there is that chance it will not work. What you need to decide is whether you want to try and hope it works... or do nothing and let resentment build. I can guarantee that if you just let it go, not addressing it, things WILL get worse. 

Now, as for talking about sex... he's wrong. So many women I know DO love talking about it, and doing it! *smh* I still don't get that mindset, that we should be *hush hush* about the subject... and that women don't like sex, don't like talking about it.

Bottom line, wayword, you need to do it. If you don't try, nothing will change.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

wayword said:


> I lied and agreed; I didn't want to seem greedy on top of everything else!! So I just met my (emotional) needs elsewhere.


Well this is where you fell short. Why did you lie? Was there not ONE thing you could have said that was truthful about him being "good" in some way? Surely there must have been something?

If there genuinely wasn't (and I struggle to believe there was absolutely nothing) that you could find that was positive about him, it would have been much kinder to have been scrupulously honest and told him this. 

So you lied and then had your needs met elsewhere. 
Much better to tell the truth in the first instance. A vast improvement on just not wanting to "seem greedy."

Hurtful and dishonest not do so in my opinion.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> She got a little good advice, plus a boatload of abuse and insults. I wonder which she will remember?


Hopefully the advice because she needed it. But like I said she didn't really want to hear anything so yes some of the posters were trying to shake her out of the fantasy world she created. You call that abuse. I call that also helping to put a mirror up against her behavior. Same scenario but looking at it very differently


----------



## wayword

Mr Blunt said:


> *Do you think that your conversations and excitement with these men are going to help you get better with you being needy and insecure? *
> 
> I spent a lot of time last night thinking about this. No, it won't. You are right; it is a temporary fix to a chronic issue.
> 
> You are not a freak as many men and women like conversation with the opposite sex about sex. *It is not a matter of being a freak it is a matter of what will be best for you*. Most men get sexually excited when they talk to a woman about sex. I am a man and I can tell you that those men would like to bang you. I will also tell you as a man that those men that will bang a married woman do not give shyt about your insecurity and just want to use you for a sperm depository and get a freebie. That is not going to help your insecurity or your neediness.
> 
> I don't want to bang anyone; I'm way too insecure to actually do that. I can't even get my own husband to compliment me or talk about sex. I thought about it, sure, what it must be like to be with someone who actually wants me, but I'm not stupid enough to _believe _the fantasy we make up online.
> 
> You say that your husband is religious and does not want to talk about sex and flirt with you. Maybe your husband is a sex prude and not a flirt but do not allow yourself to rationalize and that it gives you a good reason to talk sex with other men. You already know that talking with those men make you feel bad and then you wonder if you are a good wife and mother. Lot of people get a temporary excitement when talking to the opposite sex about sex but what will be the result for you?
> 
> Obviously, nothing good with my husband. And let me clarify, I don't feel bad when I speak to those men. It actually makes me feel what I don't with my husband: desirable, smart, creative. But I know I'll have to give all that up, including getting to feel that way with someone, and though none of you want to hear it, that _hurts_.
> 
> 
> I am not trying to moralize you as I have talked to the opposite sex about sex and got a temporary charge out of it also. The bottom line is this.
> *What is going to be the result f you keep talking to these men about sex?
> 
> Is talking to these men about sex going to help or hurt your insecurities?
> 
> Are you willing to risk losing your husband and 50% custody of your child over temporary excitements?
> 
> Do you think that these men would give a rat's AZZ about you?*
> 
> No. So I guess I'll just have to suck it up. And like I said, I don't care about the men, just like they don't care about me. It's all fantasy. A nice one, but fantasy just the same. I don't have anything anybody wants in real life, so I'm not really worried about anyone using me beyond words on a phone or on a screen.
> 
> 
> 
> I want to compliment you for being honest and brave. However, being honest and brave is only half the actions you need to take. Now you have to find a way to STOP talking sex with other men.
> 
> 
> *There are positive ways to get better with your insecurities; there are a lot of resources to help you with those positive actions if you choose to utilize them*. . Talking with other men about sex will eventfully make you pay a big price for such cheap trills. I want to encourage you again to seek out the women on this TAM website that knows what talking to other men about sex will do to you in the future.
> 
> Please elaborate on those resources, if possible.
> 
> I hope you find a way to take the right actions. I do not want to read about you in the coming months crying, desperate, begging someone to help you stop a divorce and/or get 50% custody of your child. In addition, your insecurities will be be a lot worse than they are now.
> 
> If you get better with your insecurities you will not be dependant on other men to build you up. You will not be needy and compromise yourself with men that want to use you and when you want something from them they will dump you. *They do not care about you; you have to care about yourself!*


This last part really got me. I don't want to lose my family, and I don't want to hurt my husband further. He's a good man. My daughter deserves a whole family. I just feel like I'm sacrificing what little I did have for them. I know I'm supposed to say it's worth it, without question. And they are worth it, I just have to stop questioning. That's the really hard part.


----------



## cpacan

Mr. Dee said:


> I was not dissatisfied. I thought that explained I wasn't. I repeat, my marriage was happy. I cheated in spite of that.


Thank you for repeating it, Mr. Dee, though I don't think you'll get away with it. 

Some people just have a different perspective and consider the fact that you cheated THE proof that you were actually dissatisfied with your marriage, even though you may not be aware of it yourself. Surely your wife must have done something that would trigger infidelity on your part.


----------



## Wolf1974

wayword said:


> Thanks for the advice, though I am skeptical.
> 
> I've tried talking to him about it. He says "he doesn't want to have 'those long, drawn-out conversations" and that "nobody talks about sex like [I do]". He says he doesn't have fantasies, and that sex should "Just happen" (no mental foreplay, no fun, no nothing). The last time I tried to talk to him about my needs he ended up in tears and angry, saying I wanted too much and he thought he was a good husband. I lied and agreed; I didn't want to seem greedy on top of everything else!! So I just met my (emotional) needs elsewhere.
> 
> I told him on numerous occasions "I don't feel close to you" and "I'm lonely" and he whirls around on me with "Well what do you want to talk about?!" I didn't realize I needed a topic list. Over the years I've gotten so used to *not *talking to him that speaking to him about anything other than the baby or business/house stuff is awkward.
> 
> We work opposite schedules and so we don't see each other during the workweek. I come home or spend time with my mom and daughter just to be around people, until the weekends, when I can be ignored in favor of the television (or on the off chance he wants sex). He is in IC, I can no longer afford it. We tried going to Couple's therapy before the baby but he just says I'm needy and he doesn't give compliments or flirt.
> 
> Honestly, I feel a bit bereft and even angry. Now he can feel justified in keeping things as they are, and I'll just have to sit there and accept it in silence because he's got the moral high ground.


My honest advice would be to show him about the emotional affair. Seems you have talked to him and he doesn't listen. If that doesn't shake him awake then nothing will. Then it's time to make another decision


----------



## Rookie4

Mr. Dee said:


> I was not dissatisfied. I thought that explained I wasn't. I repeat, my marriage was happy. I cheated in spite of that.


If you were looking, there must have been a reason why, so that means something was missing in your marriage. What it was, only you can find out, and I hope you do.


----------



## Rookie4

wayword said:


> Thanks for the advice, though I am skeptical.
> 
> I've tried talking to him about it. He says "he doesn't want to have 'those long, drawn-out conversations" and that "nobody talks about sex like [I do]". He says he doesn't have fantasies, and that sex should "Just happen" (no mental foreplay, no fun, no nothing). The last time I tried to talk to him about my needs he ended up in tears and angry, saying I wanted too much and he thought he was a good husband. I lied and agreed; I didn't want to seem greedy on top of everything else!! So I just met my (emotional) needs elsewhere.
> 
> I told him on numerous occasions "I don't feel close to you" and "I'm lonely" and he whirls around on me with "Well what do you want to talk about?!" I didn't realize I needed a topic list. Over the years I've gotten so used to *not *talking to him that speaking to him about anything other than the baby or business/house stuff is awkward.
> 
> We work opposite schedules and so we don't see each other during the workweek. I come home or spend time with my mom and daughter just to be around people, until the weekends, when I can be ignored in favor of the television (or on the off chance he wants sex). He is in IC, I can no longer afford it. We tried going to Couple's therapy before the baby but he just says I'm needy and he doesn't give compliments or flirt.
> 
> Honestly, I feel a bit bereft and even angry. Now he can feel justified in keeping things as they are, and I'll just have to sit there and accept it in silence because he's got the moral high ground.


You do NOT have to accept the status quo. You are an adult and can stay or leave, as you choose.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Hopefully the advice because she needed it. But like I said she didn't really want to hear anything so yes some of the posters were trying to shake her out of the fantasy world she created. You call that abuse. I call that also helping to put a mirror up against her behavior. Same scenario but looking at it very differently


That whole "tough love" thing is way overrated as a motivator, the older the person being motivated gets. It works well with teens , but not usually with full grown adults. Just sayin.


----------



## Rookie4

wayword said:


> This last part really got me. I don't want to lose my family, and I don't want to hurt my husband further. He's a good man. My daughter deserves a whole family. I just feel like I'm sacrificing what little I did have for them. I know I'm supposed to say it's worth it, without question. And they are worth it, I just have to stop questioning. That's the really hard part.


Your daughter deserves two happy, well adjusted, parents. Not a family in turmoil. 
Every time I hear somebody say the word "sacrifice" I immediately think that they are attempting to become martyrs, as an excuse for bad behavior.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> That whole "tough love" thing is way overrated as a motivator, the older the person being motivated gets. It works well with teens , but not usually with full grown adults. Just sayin.


Really then why in the end did she "say" she was going To tell the truth and let the "chips fall where they may" Either your theory is wrong or maybe cheaters aren't as emotionally mature as you give them credit?


----------



## Rookie4

cpacan said:


> Thank you for repeating it, Mr. Dee, though I don't think you'll get away with it.
> 
> Some people just have a different perspective and consider the fact that you cheated THE proof that you were actually dissatisfied with your marriage, even though you may not be aware of it yourself. Surely your wife must have done something that would trigger infidelity on your part.


I agree with part of this. If you cheat, then something is wrong. If you are COMPLETELY satisfied with your marriage and wife, then why go looking for trouble? It makes no sense, not even from a wayward. 
Notice too, that I said happy AND well adjusted. Apparently, you are not the later. Well adjusted people are not deceivers.
Cpacan, As far as it being his spouse's fault, you are simply projecting, and have no idea, so I think this would better left unsaid.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Really then why in the end did she "say" she was going To tell the truth and let the "chips fall where they may" Either your theory is wrong or maybe cheaters aren't as emotionally mature as you give them credit?


I've no idea, and neither do you. Perhaps her version of "the truth" isn't the whole enchilada. After all, we all see things differently. Plus, when did I ever say that WS's were mature? I was speaking about the "tough love" format, and nothing more than that.


----------



## Mr. Dee

Rookie4 said:


> If you were looking, there must have been a reason why, so that means something was missing in your marriage. What it was, only you can find out, and I hope you do.


Yes there was something missing. In me. *ME*. Not in my marriage. Not in my wife.

From what I've read, the "fog" usually makes cheaters notice any little thing to complain about their spouse, if they can find the smallest issue to turn into an excuse. But even my fog couldn't find anything. My xAP said the same thing you do, trying to convince me my marriage was garbage and I should leave it for her. I told her she was wrong. 

I did not spend my affair telling myself "if only my wife would...." or "it's because she doesn't..." and I sure don't think these things now.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> I've no idea, and neither do you. Perhaps her version of "the truth" isn't the whole enchilada. After all, we all see things differently. Plus, when did I ever say that WS's were mature? I was speaking about the "tough love" format, and nothing more than that.


Exactly right. You don't have a clue and neither do I. You choose the love in approach and I think tough love works. It's lovely how you seem to think only your opinion matters and others can't possibly have something to add.

I happen to think when someone like Zanne comes here spouting off about having affairs and using her husband for money and that this doesn't hurt her husband at all because , of course, he doesn't know, that maybe she would benefit from hearing from other BS. Because some of us were also apparently "spared the pain of the affair" by lies and it made it worse not better. Again a variance of how we look at things. 

Since this is a opinion based forum plenty of room for both thoughts on here


----------



## cpacan

Rookie4 said:


> I agree with part of this. If you cheat, then something is wrong. If you are COMPLETELY satisfied with your marriage and wife, then why go looking for trouble? It makes no sense, not even from a wayward.
> Notice too, that I said happy AND well adjusted. Apparently, you are not the later. Well adjusted people are not deceivers.
> Cpacan, As far as it being his spouse's fault, you are simply projecting, and have no idea, so I think this would better left unsaid.


This is the mistake I also made the first few months, still do sometimes. I'm a logic thinking person, so I looked for logic reasons where there was none.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> That whole "tough love" thing is way overrated as a motivator, the older the person being motivated gets. It works well with teens , but not usually with full grown adults. Just sayin.


Wanna bet? Worked better on me than when I was a child/teen.


----------



## Rookie4

Mr. Dee said:


> Yes there was something missing. In me. *ME*. Not in my marriage. Not in my wife.
> 
> From what I've read, the "fog" usually makes cheaters notice any little thing to complain about their spouse, if they can find the smallest issue to turn into an excuse. But even my fog couldn't find anything. My xAP said the same thing you do, trying to convince me my marriage was garbage and I should leave it for her. I told her she was wrong.
> 
> I did not spend my affair telling myself "if only my wife would...." or "it's because she doesn't..." and I sure don't think these things now.


Aren't you part of your marriage? If the problem is in YOU, then isn't it also in your marriage? I am not trying to convince you of anything. A marriage is between two adults, if one of them (you) are not in sync with the other, then yes, Houston, there is a problem. Nothing in life is spontaneous, everything has a cause. Even if that cause is stupid or not readily apparent.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Exactly right. You don't have a clue and neither do I. You choose the love in approach and I think tough love works. It's lovely how you seem to think only your opinion matters and others can't possibly have something to add.
> 
> I happen to think when someone like Zanne comes here spouting off about having affairs and using her husband for money and that this doesn't hurt her husband at all because , of course, he doesn't know, that maybe she would benefit from hearing from other BS. Because some of us were also apparently "spared the pain of the affair" by lies and it made it worse not better. Again a variance of how we look at things.
> 
> Since this is a opinion based forum plenty of room for both thoughts on here


You are wrong. I NEVER said that "tough love " NEVER works. Get my posts right or don't comment on them.
Yes, there is room for every opinion, even the opinions of Waywards.


----------



## Healer

Paladin said:


> It's like a broken record here. Even when a person takes the time to choose words carefully, the desperation of some to interpret everything as a justification for an affair just over rides their common sense. No where do I say that a WS is not responsible for their dysfunctional coping mechanisms and their choice to cheat, but I guess its just easier to put words in someones mouth and then call those words wrong.
> 
> It is not possible to have a healthy marriage if both spouses are not healthy, since it takes both of them putting in effort to make it work. If thinking everything was perfect and the WS just randomly decided to ruin it out of spite helps you cope, have at it.


Broken record indeed. You spin me right round baby right round...


----------



## Rookie4

cpacan said:


> This is the mistake I also made the first few months, still do sometimes. I'm a logic thinking person, so I looked for logic reasons where there was none.


I agree. Sometimes the reasons aren't logical, sometimes the reasons aren't rational, but they ALWAYS exist, and have to be taken into account.


----------



## Healer

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> IIRC you have zero personal experience with infidelity...


Somehow I don't think this is true. But I doubt it's the same kind of experience you and I have.


----------



## Healer

soulpotato said:


> I really hope you're joking...!


Except for the "man" part, I'd say it's bang on.


----------



## Rookie4

Maricha75 said:


> Wanna bet? Worked better on me than when I was a child/teen.


Good for you.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> Good for you.


I really hope this wasn't your attempt at dismissing my point that it does work on adults as well.


----------



## Rookie4

Mr. Dee said:


> Yes there was something missing. In me. *ME*. Not in my marriage. Not in my wife.
> 
> From what I've read, the "fog" usually makes cheaters notice any little thing to complain about their spouse, if they can find the smallest issue to turn into an excuse. But even my fog couldn't find anything. My xAP said the same thing you do, trying to convince me my marriage was garbage and I should leave it for her. I told her she was wrong.
> 
> I did not spend my affair telling myself "if only my wife would...." or "it's because she doesn't..." and I sure don't think these things now.


Dee, if you don't know the reasons you cheated, my suggestion is that you seek counseling to find out what those reasons are.  IC worked wonders for my ex wife, and she is a better, more mature , and well adjusted person now than at any time during our marriage. Too bad it is too late for us, but it doesn't have to be for you.


----------



## Healer

wayword said:


> Okay, I'll bite --
> 
> I've been chatting online and on the phone with men other than my husband. I got found out tonight when a 'friend' I usually can talk to texted me while he was home (he usually isn't around this time of night).
> 
> I feel bad, yes. I wish I didn't feel I had to talk to other men about the kinds of things we do talk about -- mostly sex, and if I'm a bad wife/mom/person/woman for wanting it. My husband was brought up in a religious household and doesn't think you should talk about sex, and that nobody wants to have "long drawn out conversations". (except me, but I'm a "freak".)
> 
> I'm not doing anything physical, but I know that doesn't excuse my behavior. I was -- am -- lonely, insecure, and needy. None attractive traits. I wanted someone to talk to -- and to feel, I don't know...like something besides a asexual old mother and a business partner of a wife. It was nice to flirt and talk about things I can't with anyone else. I thought i was sparing my husband uncomfortable things he didn't want to talk about but now I can't talk about them with *anyone*! He has television, a million channels i can't compete with, instead of talking to me.


That's called an affair.


----------



## Rookie4

Maricha75 said:


> I really hope this wasn't your attempt at dismissing my point that it does work on adults as well.


Re-read my post. I NEVER said that it NEVER works. I ONLY said that it was overrated. You are trying to start an argument where none exists.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> You think you know, but , of course , you don't.


Actually most of us know. It's very obvious.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> You are wrong. I NEVER said that "tough love " NEVER works. Get my posts right or don't comment on them.
> Yes, there is room for every opinion, even the opinions of Waywards.


And that's what I said as well. Room for all opinions WS and BS alike. Seems it's more you that needs to read the posts because I was
Agreeing with that. Calm it down
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> And that's what I said as well. Room for all opinions WS and BS alike. Seems it's more you that needs to read the posts because I was
> Agreeing with that. Calm it down
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, but didn't you say that my theory was wrong? How is that agreeing with me?:scratchhead:


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but didn't you say that my theory was wrong? How is that agreeing with me?:scratchhead:


I said to me it's wrong as you assume my way of doing it is wrong however in ZANNES case it seemed to get through to her. I then said, if you read further, that it's an opinion based forum and room to have different opinions on the matter. More than just your viewpoint counts here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I agree with part of this. If you cheat, then something is wrong.


Indeed. With the cheater.



Rookie4 said:


> If you are COMPLETELY satisfied with your marriage and wife, then why go looking for trouble?


Because some people are malcontents by nature. I've known several in my life. It doesn't matter how much they have, how good they've got it, they want something different - the next thing. I've seen people sabotage amazing jobs, relationships. Some people are unhappy being happy. Some people get off on destroying something good. Malcontents. They exist. Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it untrue.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I've no idea, and neither do you. Perhaps her version of "the truth" isn't the whole enchilada. After all, we all see things differently. Plus, when did I ever say that WS's were mature? I was speaking about the "tough love" format, and nothing more than that.


What was your effective approach to dealing with Zanne?


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I am not trying to convince you of anything.


:lol:


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> I said to me it's wrong as you assume my way of doing it is wrong however in ZANNES case it seemed to get through to her. I then said, if you read further, that it's an opinion based forum and room to have different opinions on the matter. More than just your viewpoint counts here
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My opinion is exactly that.....my opinion. Yours has just as much validity, and I would defend it just as much. But, to be honest, NEITHER one is FACT.


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> What was your effective approach to dealing with Zanne?


I started this thread to welcome waywards, I didn't start it to give advice and really don't want to, except when required to do so. I have no intention of going back and researching all of the threads she has posted on, nor do I want to crucify her based on ONLY this thread.
The only thing I WILL say is that I think she would be better off being here, than being banned. Too bad.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I started this thread to welcome waywards, I didn't start it to give advice and really don't want to, except when required to do so. I have no intention of going back and researching all of the threads she has posted on, nor do I want to crucify her based on ONLY this thread.
> The only thing I WILL say is that I think she would be better off being here, than being banned. Too bad.


And after two years of her being here, and still cheating on her husband, and justifying it, what good do you think her being her still would do exactly? Maybe in another 2 years she'll stop? Maybe if we're all SUPER sweet to her and support her she'll _get_ it?


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> Indeed. With the cheater.
> 
> 
> 
> Because some people are malcontents by nature. I've known several in my life. It doesn't matter how much they have, how good they've got it, they want something different - the next thing. I've seen people sabotage amazing jobs, relationships. Some people are unhappy being happy. Some people get off on destroying something good. Malcontents. They exist. Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it untrue.


Exactly my point about being well adjusted, isn't it. Malcontents are NOT well adjusted, are they?


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> And after two years of her being here, and still cheating on her husband, and justifying it, what good do you think her being her still would do exactly? Maybe in another 2 years she'll stop? Maybe if we're all SUPER sweet to her and support her she'll _get_ it?


Maybe, maybe not, but it isn't our place to badmouth her, regardless of how long she is here. I would rather talk to her , than have her not talk to anybody. Which is the reason for this thread.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Exactly my point about being well adjusted, isn't it. Malcontents are NOT well adjusted, are they?


Nope. But that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the marriage? Does it?


----------



## Rookie4

I mean, Hey, I NEVER thought that my ex wife would ever change, and fix her issues. But she proved me wrong and is a MUCH better person now. She has done everything humanly possible to get me back and prove herself trustworthy, but unfortunately, too much time has passed and I found somebody else.


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> Nope. But that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the marriage? Does it?


Marriage is between two people, right? So if one is a malcontent , then that effects the marriage. Marriage is not an institution, separate from it's parts. It takes two to make one, it takes two to make one good. There is no such thing as infidelity without a cause.


----------



## doubletrouble

Rookie4 said:


> I mean, Hey, I NEVER thought that my ex wife would ever change, and fix her issues. But she proved me wrong and is a MUCH better person now. She has done everything humanly possible to get me back and prove herself trustworthy, but unfortunately, too much time has passed and I found somebody else.


That's a painful lesson for her. How sad, some folks need to live through such things before they learn.


----------



## user_zero

Rookie4 said:


> Marriage is between two people, right? So if one is a malcontent , then that effects the marriage. Marriage is not an institution, separate from it's parts. It takes two to make one, it takes two to make one good. *There is no such thing as infidelity without a cause*.


no body is saying that. in fact I believe people here are saying that infidelity has a cause. the cause is inside the wayward's character. it's connected to the way they solve their problems, life difficulties. to the way they reach what they want. it's about their concept of morality , honor , respects , staying true to one's word no matter what. (to the concept of want and need) which in itself is connected to the way they've been raised by their parent. did the parent show their child that every wrong action has a consequences or they rug swept the whole thing. and therefore their child learned this behavior from them. that's why people here recommend IC to the waywards. so that they could start soul searching and self-reflection and realize what went wrong within themselves that despite having other options they chose one of the worst ways to deal with their issues inside their relationship.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> There is no such thing as infidelity without a cause.


What does that mean? There's no such thing as anything without a cause. 

A phone call is made. The cause? Someone picked up the phone and made a call. Someone changes lanes on the highway. The cause? The driver slightly veered the steering wheel.

What a trite and meaningless statement.

What you are actually asserting is that the *BS* _caused_ the WS to cheat. And that's bullsh*t. Perhaps you caused *your* WS to cheat. But don't assign that blame to the other BS in the world. Speak for yourself and your WW. You clearly feel responsible for your wife's decision to step out on you. That's your problem - not ours.

You can assert that the responsibility is on both spouses over and over and over again. It's just not going to make it true.

Yes, the "cause" of infidelity is the poor character, selfishness, cruelty and ugliness of the wayward.


----------



## Rookie4

user_zero said:


> no body is saying that. in fact I believe people here are saying that infidelity has a cause. the cause is inside the wayward's character. it's connected to the way they solve their problems, life difficulties. to the way they reach what they want. it's about their concept of morality , honor , respects , staying true to one's word no matter what. (to the concept of want and need) which in itself is connected to the way they've been raised by their parent. did the parent show their child that every wrong action has a consequences or they rug swept the whole thing. and therefore their child learned this behavior from them. that's why people here recommend IC to the waywards. so that they could start soul searching and self-reflection and realize what went wrong within themselves that despite having other options they chose one of the worst ways to deal with their issues inside their relationship.


I understand that. The point I'm trying to make is that there is no such thing as cheating in a good , well adjusted marriage, in which both partners are satisfied. There is ALWAYS a cause.


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> What does that mean? There's no such thing as anything without a cause.
> 
> A phone call is made. The cause? Someone picked up the phone and made a call. Someone changes lanes on the highway. The cause? The driver slightly veered the steering wheel.
> 
> What a trite and meaningless statement.
> 
> What you are actually asserting is that the *BS* _caused_ the WS to cheat. And that's bullsh*t. Perhaps you caused *your* WS to cheat. But don't assign that blame to the other BS in the world. Speak for yourself and your WW. You clearly feel responsible for your wife's decision to step out on you. That's your problem - not ours.
> 
> You can assert that the responsibility is on both spouses over and over and over again. It's just not going to make it true.
> 
> Yes, the "cause" of infidelity is the poor character, selfishness, cruelty and ugliness of the wayward.


Do not put words in my mouth again, or you will be reported. I have tried to be patient , but you are insulting and offensive. I meant exactly what I said.


----------



## user_zero

Rookie4 said:


> I understand that. The point I'm trying to make is that there is no such thing as cheating in a good , well adjusted marriage, in which both partners are satisfied. There is ALWAYS a cause.


you're poking to get an emotional response, Rookie.


----------



## user_zero

Rookie4 said:


> Do not put words in my mouth again, or you will be reported. I have tried to be patient , but you are insulting and offensive. I meant exactly what I said.


in fact , it is you who is being offensive and insulting. You're pushing Healer to get an emotional reaction from him.


----------



## Rookie4

doubletrouble said:


> That's a painful lesson for her. How sad, some folks need to live through such things before they learn.


I agree. That is why I want WS's to come here to learn from some of the excellent FWS's and understanding BS's that we do have. Posters like EI, Mrs. Adams, Mrs. Mathias, CSS and Affaircare can really help them, without the character asassination.


----------



## Rookie4

user_zero said:


> in fact , it is you who is being offensive and insulting. You're pushing Healer to get an emotional reaction from him.


Not so. If he will restrain himself, I would have no problem. I have tried to answer his posts to the best of my ability, but I will not have words put in my mouth that I did NOT say. I understand that you agree with him, but you have been polite while doing it.


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> No not confusing anything. I was speaking about the wayward posters here demanding that BS posters listen to their side of things. But seems they don't give what they ask for.
> 
> *What's wrong with listening to the wayward? That doesn't mean taking them back or anything of the sort.*
> 
> I further disagree about the WS not coming here and learning anything. Plenty of positive advice was given to Zanne about coming clean and ending the lies. She said she was going to tell her husband. I will be first to say I don't believe her for a second BUT if she actually does then I think that's great she is no longer living a lie. then she can save her marriage or hopefully let the guy go. Either way success out of staying in her fantasy world she created.
> 
> *Zanne was a special case. She is a very sick, very broken woman who needs psychological help. I don't regard her situation of typical of anything except a pathological condition.*


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> Of course it was different. A general comment is one thing. Folks can take it or leave it. A direct comment is just that, direct and difficult to ignore. That's why a direct attack is against TAM rules.


Please, she knew what she was doing by keeping it "in general".

And what I said was nowhere near an attack. 





> I won't because it is two different cases.


No, you won't because you side with her opinion, therefore snark on your side will be tolerated.


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> Of course her opinion counts. It counts as her opinion, not a universal truth. It is just like your opinion or mine. Neither are universal truths.


You must not have picked up on the sarcasm.


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> If that's supposed to be funny, it isn't.


Then tell the person who first used that word to describe those he disagrees with. I'll be waiting.


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> I'm light. Infidelity is a difficult subject to discuss. *Poopheadism makes it almost impossible*. So I'd rather leave it out.


There's that general comment again that will go unchecked.


----------



## sidney2718

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by sidney2718
> Why was she bored? Did you and she have date nights? Did the two of you have a social life together? Were there any children? Endless questions.





pidge70 said:


> From Wolf post #1473





> Quote:
> You are missing the point though. I and a few others have stated their were no issues, relationship was fine. I am not in denial about this I lived it. We were in process of buying a new house, planning a vacation, and organinzing her sisters 40th birthday. We worked out together, spent time as a family and had date nights every weekend. Everything was good on Nov 1st. Nov 5 this guy gets transferred into her department. Nov 15th she and him start an emotional affair. Nov 25 all hell breaks loose and she looses her temper with me 3 times over the thanksgiving weekend. Nov 30th she tells me she wants a divorce. Somewhere in there the physical affair started but not sure when.
> 
> The person i married to was unhealthy. Had nothing to do with the state of the marriage. No matter what she was going to cheat eventually just happend to be at this point and time and with this guy.
> 
> And again all this she has admitted to


I posted what I posted in response to this. This is not a response. She could well have been bored. She was certainly ready to start an affair. And she certainly seems to have had issues enough to start arguments on Thanksgiving weekend.

None of this excuses the affair. But I strongly doubt that the wife SUDDENLY became unhealthy. And there is no way to know if "she was going to cheat eventually..."

My point is this. Very few marriages have infidelity come out of nowhere. Sure, often the BS isn't aware of the issues, but they nevertheless exist.

I was reading a thread the other day in which the guy was clearly concerned about his wife's behavior. Several folks told him that the odds were that she was cheating. He claimed that it was impossible. There was no opportunity, they had a great sex life, they got along well, and all that.

Of course within a couple of days he discovered something on her phone or iPad or whatever and the fat was in the fire. He was good enough to admit to the thread that he'd been totally wrong about his wife and now, looking back, he could see many red flags and that there had been problems with the marriage that he'd overlooked as "not serious".

This happens in many marriages (not all, but many) in which the husband claims that the wife just suddenly changed and for no reason. Marriages have to be worked at and it often isn't fun because both parties may have to give up some cherished assumptions.


----------



## sidney2718

xakulax said:


> :iagree:
> 
> And yet no one ever asked what was lacking in the wayward spouse during the marriage or affair was the wayward spouse meeting their partners needs were they doing the things to make the marriage work of course not but lets not talk about that because that type of thinking leads to the slippery slope of responsibility and accountability and we can't have that if the goal is to sell R and that is the goal of this type of thinking..
> 
> To me this type of thinking is nothing more than a new form of Stockholm Syndrome identify with your attacker and blame yourself for your problems sorry but I refuse to turn my brain off because someone decided to take there pants off


Xak, you make a good point. And you are right, I've not paid enough attention to that. The faults, such as they are, are rarely only on one side.


----------



## Rookie4

Sidney, my "poophead " comment was a joke, of course. It, in no way, was directed at any specific poster. If some posters seek to lay claim to BEING a poophead, that is none of my business.


----------



## user_zero

Rookie4 said:


> I understand that. The point I'm trying to make is that there is no such thing as cheating in a good , well adjusted marriage, in which *both partners are satisfied*. There is ALWAYS a cause.


Actually there is cheating in good marriages too. and when I say good I mean from the point of the view of waywards themselves.

I believe you're jumping a gap in the bold part of your post. you see what makes people satisfied in their relationship is depends on their 'Perception' of what they are getting/not getting in their relationship from their partner not the reality of their relationship. that's why we have 'fog' and 'rewriting marital history'. and I also wanna add something nice bfree posted in another thread. it was about the concept of 'want' and 'need'. I believe sometimes we don't know the difference. sometimes we want something in our relationship. we change that want into a need in our heads. and not just any type of need. we change that into a kind of need that we believe living without it is impossible, that we believe having that need is the most important thing in the world and we're gonna pay even the highest cost for it. that is on us , not the relationship, not our spouse. especially when they are not even aware of what's happening inside our heads (which is happen more than the other way around in affairs have been seen on TAM). I can even point to threads if you need that's necessary.

I repeat again the cause of making wrong choices is inside the one that making the choice, not the environment. I've seen a lot of people in a LOT worse situations than what I've seen here and they stayed true to their values. some divorced and find happiness , some stayed together and find their happiness, but never betrayed each other. I know it's hard to believe , but it's true.


----------



## vellocet

soulpotato said:


> I guess since Zanne and JLD aren't available to harass anymore, it's my turn in the barrel...


Do you use your spouse for money while going on getaways with the "other" or think that men shouldn't be forgiven for cheating, but women should because it was the man's fault in the first place?

If not, then no, it isn't your turn in the barrel.


----------



## Wolf1974

That's funny you say she is a special case. For two years of reading here I would say she is literally the typical. Lots of blame shifting, lots of self justifying, lots of denial. Kinda textbook for here. What is rare is the WS who owns their affair. Those I see as the unicorn


----------



## sidney2718

> Originally Posted by sidney2718
> I'd be greatful if you would point us at some posts in which "open minded" people blame shifted onto the BS and basically justified cheating.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Healer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. I'll get my best people on it.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I'd appreciate it.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Wolf1974 said:


> That's funny you say she is a special case. For two years of reading here I would say she is literally the typical. Lots of blame shifting, lots of self justifying, lots of denial. Kinda textbook for here. What is rare is the WS who owns their affair. Those I see as the unicorn


I do NOT have a horn! I have two. Get it right.


----------



## Rookie4

sidney2718 said:


> I posted what I posted in response to this. This is not a response. She could well have been bored. She was certainly ready to start an affair. And she certainly seems to have had issues enough to start arguments on Thanksgiving weekend.
> 
> None of this excuses the affair. But I strongly doubt that the wife SUDDENLY became unhealthy. And there is no way to know if "she was going to cheat eventually..."
> 
> My point is this. Very few marriages have infidelity come out of nowhere. Sure, often the BS isn't aware of the issues, but they nevertheless exist.
> 
> I was reading a thread the other day in which the guy was clearly concerned about his wife's behavior. Several folks told him that the odds were that she was cheating. He claimed that it was impossible. There was no opportunity, they had a great sex life, they got along well, and all that.
> 
> Of course within a couple of days he discovered something on her phone or iPad or whatever and the fat was in the fire. He was good enough to admit to the thread that he'd been totally wrong about his wife and now, looking back, he could see many red flags and that there had been problems with the marriage that he'd overlooked as "not serious".
> 
> This happens in many marriages (not all, but many) in which the husband claims that the wife just suddenly changed and for no reason. Marriages have to be worked at and it often isn't fun because both parties may have to give up some cherished assumptions.


Well put. We perform maintenance on everything we possess, except our marriages. We, as BS's , often do not recognize the problems, until after the fall. By inviting WS's to this site, perhaps we can learn to be able to recognize the symptoms, before they turn into a cancer. This has immense value to those who have been or may become BS's, also to those who have been or may become WS's, like Wayword.
When I first started racing, I knew very little about auto mechanics, so I , as the driver, was always doing things that were mechanically unsound. When I began to help the pit guys work on the cars, I learned a lot, which made me a better driver and I won many more races, because of what I learned.
If something (like a rear end) failed, it did no good to curse it, and others like it, or replace it, or give up on it. It is infinitely better to learn how to FIX it. Better for the driver, and the team. Besides, you can cuss it all you want, but that won't win the race.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> Welcome to TAM, Wayword. I hope you can learn to distinguish the helpful posters from the hateful ones.


Ok, so rather commenting on wayword's post or helpingher, this is what you have to say?

See, told ya. Your premise for the reason behind this thread is nothing of the sort.


----------



## Rookie4

user_zero said:


> Actually there is cheating in good marriages too. and when I say good I mean from the point of the view of waywards themselves.
> 
> I believe you're jumping a gap in the bold part of your post. you see what makes people satisfied in their relationship is depends on their 'Perception' of what they are getting/not getting in their relationship from their partner not the reality of their relationship. that's why we have 'fog' and 'rewriting marital history'. and I also wanna add something nice bfree posted in another thread. it was about the concept of 'want' and 'need'. I believe sometimes we don't know the difference. sometimes we want something in our relationship. we change that want into a need in our heads. and not just any type of need. we change that into a kind of need that we believe living without it is impossible, that we believe having that need is the most important thing in the world and we're gonna pay even the highest cost for it. that is on us , not the relationship, not our spouse. especially when they are not even aware of what's happening inside our heads (which is happen more than the other way around in affairs have been seen on TAM). I can even point to threads if you need that's necessary.
> 
> I repeat again the cause of making wrong choices is inside the one that making the choice, not the environment. I've seen a lot of people in a LOT worse situations than what I've seen here and they stayed true to their values. some divorced and find happiness , some stayed together and find their happiness, but never betrayed each other. I know it's hard to believe , but it's true.


I agree that perception as to the state of the marriage is crucial to the wellbeing of a marriage.


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> I posted what I posted in response to this. This is not a response. She could well have been bored. She was certainly ready to start an affair. And she certainly seems to have had issues enough to start arguments on Thanksgiving weekend.
> 
> None of this excuses the affair. *But I strongly doubt that the wife SUDDENLY became unhealthy. And there is no way to know if "she was going to cheat eventually..."*
> 
> My point is this. Very few marriages have infidelity come out of nowhere. Sure, often the BS isn't aware of the issues, but they nevertheless exist.
> 
> I was reading a thread the other day in which the guy was clearly concerned about his wife's behavior. Several folks told him that the odds were that she was cheating. He claimed that it was impossible. There was no opportunity, they had a great sex life, they got along well, and all that.
> 
> Of course within a couple of days he discovered something on her phone or iPad or whatever and the fat was in the fire. He was good enough to admit to the thread that he'd been totally wrong about his wife and now, looking back, he could see many red flags and that there had been problems with the marriage that he'd overlooked as "not serious".
> 
> This happens in many marriages (not all, but many) in which the husband claims that the wife just suddenly changed and for no reason. Marriages have to be worked at and it often isn't fun because both parties may have to give up some cherished assumptions.


Still missing the earlier point. She didn't suddenly become unhealthy. She was carrying baggage from her past. Issues she claimed to have worked through and moved on from and I believed her. The marriage was healthy until she chose to bring unhealthy elements into the marriage. Nothing was wrong with the marriage.

And you can spin it all you want but she will be the first to admit, and did to me, that nothing was wrong with our marriage but was wrong with her personally. She managed to get through 8 years with no cheating then took an opportunity once provided.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> Ok, so rather commenting on wayword's post or helpingher, this is what you have to say?
> 
> See, told ya. Your premise for the reason behind this thread is nothing of the sort.


You can keep trying to get a rise out of me, but I still won't bite. Sorry.


----------



## sidney2718

Originally Posted by sidney2718 
the mission of TAM is to try to save marriages, not destroy them.



lenzi said:


> Where does it say that?


Several mods have stated it in recent months. There is an almost equivalent statement in the "stickies" at the head of the CWI section. It reads:



> The Coping With Infidelity forum is an area for both betrayed and wayward spouses to post about, and discuss the circumstances and very powerful emotions surrounding infidelity.
> 
> For those that choose to participate in or contribute to these discussions, it is very important to be aware of your own circumstances in relation to, or how they differ from others.
> 
> It is also very important to be aware of the Forum Rules.
> 
> Affairs are very destructive. *But relationships can, and do recover from them. Be supportive of those choosing to make that effort.*


I've bolded the appropriate words.


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> Originally Posted by sidney2718
> the mission of TAM is to try to save marriages, not destroy them.
> 
> 
> 
> Several mods have stated it in recent months. There is an almost equivalent statement in the "stickies" at the head of the CWI section. It reads:
> 
> *well if this is the case then I would say that Zanne got a lot of help since surely we call agree that having a marriage full of lies and deceit doesn't save marriages right?*
> 
> I've bolded the appropriate words.


----------



## vellocet

wayword said:


> Thanks for the advice, though I am skeptical.
> 
> I've tried talking to him about it. He says "he doesn't want to have 'those long, drawn-out conversations" and that "nobody talks about sex like [I do]".


So what do you plan to do? If he won't talk, maybe you can get him into counseling, or suggest that if he doesn't open up that the marriage will deteriorate to the point of divorce.

Also, in case I missed it, you need to come clean about what you have been doing behind his back.




> I told him on numerous occasions "I don't feel close to you" and "I'm lonely" and he whirls around on me with "Well what do you want to talk about?!" I didn't realize I needed a topic list.


???? Ok, guess I'm confused now. So you want to talk, he asks you what you want to talk about. Did he call your bluff?

Were you really wanting to communicate in the first place? Or just saying you do so that it would seem his reluctance helps justify in some way what you are doing?

He wasn't asking for a list. You indicated you want to talk, you throw those things on him, so he asks what you want to talk about. If you don't have anything to talk about, why ask him?




> We tried going to Couple's therapy before the baby but he just says I'm needy and he doesn't give compliments or flirt.


Ok, so you did try CT. So what now? If it seems he won't change, what are your thoughts on divorce?


----------



## sidney2718

xakulax said:


> Well seeing how both spouses have a voice in the relationship and seeing how unless you're being physically prevented from speaking you have the ability to voice your concerns of any issues within the marriage if something is lacking if something is deficient you should bring that issue up to try have resolved before committing adultery if the spouse refuses to listen and address the problems then you have options to leave a marriage You can't use the argument that because there are problems in the marriage that you chose to ignore/not address as an excuse to commit adultery...


I basically agree with you. But I want to make two points: one is that husbands and wives often speak right past each other. It is almost as if they are speaking different languages.

The other point is that it is not always easy or even possible for the WS to leave the marriage. Divorces take money and the (usually) wife often does not have a job that would allow her and the children to live in a residence and pay the bills. Lawyers are very expensive.


----------



## Maricha75

Look, anytime a thread like this pops up, supposedly to be a "safe haven" for waywards, it doesn't remain as such. Ever. Why?
1. Your definition of safe haven may differ from mine, which may differ from soulpotato's which may differ from vellocet's, etc. Just random names, not calling anyone out lol.
2. They ALWAYS deteriorate into "WS is evil/BS is perfect" type arguments. 

Every once in awhile, a gem will come out of the sh!t slinging. But sometimes, I do wonder the purpose of starting a thread like this. It even happened on AffairCare's thread.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> You can keep trying to get a rise out of me, but I still won't bite. Sorry.


Ya, that's why you responded earlier in the thread about the premise of your thread. I believe ya buddy


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Do not put words in my mouth again, or you will be reported. I have tried to be patient , but you are insulting and offensive. I meant exactly what I said.


Lol. Report away. 

I'm not breaking any rules.

"There's no such thing as infidelity without a cause".

Like I pointed out - every event that occurs, whether on earth, in space, whatever, has a cause. Something cannot occur without a cause. Something must happen for something to happen. So what? Even not doing anything will "cause" something. 

Your statement means nothing.


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> I basically agree with you. But I want to make two points: one is that husbands and wives often speak right past each other. It is almost as if they are speaking different languages.
> 
> The other point is that it is not always easy or even possible for the WS to leave the marriage. Divorces take money and the (usually) wife often does not have a job that would allow her and the children to live in a residence and pay the bills. Lawyers are very expensive.


 I 100% agree with you that men and women speak almost different languages. 

I don't understand your second point. So if a spouse can't afford a divorce it's ok for them to cheat? Trying to understand what your second paragraph meant


----------



## Rookie4

sidney2718 said:


> I basically agree with you. But I want to make two points: one is that husbands and wives often speak right past each other. It is almost as if they are speaking different languages.
> 
> The other point is that it is not always easy or even possible for the WS to leave the marriage. Divorces take money and the (usually) wife often does not have a job that would allow her and the children to live in a residence and pay the bills. Lawyers are very expensive.


This is a valid point , as far as divorce goes, but doesn't excuse the WS's continuing their deceptions.


----------



## sidney2718

> Originally Posted by soulpotato
> I DID bring the issues up, repeatedly. See, there's that assumption again. The affair is the fault and responsibility of the WS, but poor relationship conditions are a shared responsibility and NOT the WS' sole responsibility. Not leaving/staying doesn't make the pre-A relationship 100% of the WS' responsibility.
> 
> Where did I ever say it was an excuse to cheat? Sheesh, Paladin is right about you guys. You don't even read what's being said and take everything as excusing cheating even though that's NOT what was said at all. I didn't made that argument. I hate it when people attempt to put words in my mouth.
> 
> For the record, I wasn't the one who ignored the problems - my betrayed partner ignored the problems and fought with me just so she could continue ignoring them. Yes, I should have left, and no, I did not say ANYTHING to excuse cheating. I specified "pre-affair". I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat myself...





bandit.45 said:


> Dude you can play with the words all you want. You are just noodling with semantics. You are still trying to shift some of the blame for the affair onto your wife.
> 
> It's not going to work man. You cant spin it here with us.
> 
> You went out and banged another woman because you damn well wanted to. You had every opportunity to divorce your selfish wife and find a more suitable woman. You didn't. She may have been mean and selfish, but that is a completely separate issue from your cheating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't find what you claim in soulpotatoes post. He took the blame for the affair. He did not shift any blame for the affair onto anyone. If I'm wrong please point out where he blameshifted.


----------



## Served Cold

dear: lurking waywards

cheating is easy , you don't even have be good looking to cheat. 

So you want to feel special and of course there's always someone out there who will volunteer for the job of making you feel special. It could be your best friends spouse ,soccer dad, the comb-over guy at the mexican restaurant and if you have a few bucks the metro sexual personal trainer. 

If that doesn't pan out, you can sign up with a minimal fee on ****** *******. If your budget is tight you can troll Craig's list. 

Dear wayward, you just want to validated and that's not a crime. Cheaters are sexy, cheaters are good people. So what if you have to lie and deceive to become validated. 

Betrayed spouse are so cumbersome, they don't get that you're so darn sexy.


----------



## sidney2718

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Lol! You have no idea whether he was "placating" me or being completely honest.
> 
> IIRC you have zero personal experience with infidelity and therefore your inexperienced opinions are completely irrelevant to me.
> 
> For this reason, you are now on ignore.


Can't stand what I wrote, eh? As for my story, you have no idea what it is or how it affects me.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> I understand that. The point I'm trying to make is that there is no such thing as cheating in a good , well adjusted marriage, in which both partners are satisfied. There is ALWAYS a cause.


And I believe a lot of the times the "cause" is that the person cheating just isn't suited for married life. They can't handle the "forsaking others" part and don't want to limit the number of different people they can have sex with.


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> Lol. Report away.
> 
> I'm not breaking any rules.
> 
> "There's no such thing as infidelity without a cause".
> 
> Like I pointed out - every event that occurs, whether on earth, in space, whatever, has a cause. Something cannot occur without a cause. Something must happen for something to happen. So what? Even not doing anything will "cause" something.
> 
> Your statement means nothing.


Then I guess that you and I have nothing to talk about. Sokay by me.


----------



## user_zero

Rookie4 said:


> I agree that perception as to the state of the marriage is crucial to the wellbeing of a marriage.


you've just dismissed everything I said , without actually saying the reasons for your disagreement. except acknowledging the part the fits your view and even then in a way that nothing can be said as a response to your post 'except agreeing with you'.

hummm.... :scratchhead:. you've changed. this is a different Rookie that the one I knew.


----------



## sidney2718

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Thank you SP.
> 
> I feel we are at a crossroads. I've told him that.
> 
> He's told me he is going back into IC, because he knows I've reached my limit with his withholding from our relationship.
> 
> I can walk away knowing there was nothing I could have done that I didn't do.
> 
> It saddens me because I do love him, but even a worm will turn.


I'm sad to hear this, but sometimes walking away is the only answer. And you are right, you've tried.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> Do not put words in my mouth again, or you will be reported.


Sorry, you don't have any reason to report him. And do be careful with your threats of reporting. Mods can admonish those who report with no basis.


----------



## sidney2718

lenzi said:


> Sounds pretty serious to me.
> 
> So what he didn't know you're a female so he called you a dude and he assumed you're married.
> 
> Doesn't really change the thrust of his post, which was pretty much spot on.
> 
> You're blameshifting and justifying to some degree by saying your partner was ignorant to the problems and didn't want to fix things.


How can telling the truth be blameshifting and justifying when the poster explicitly stated that full responsibility for the affair was accepted?


----------



## sidney2718

soulpotato said:


> i guess since zanne and jld aren't available to harass anymore, it's my turn in the barrel...


bingo!


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> Sidney, my "poophead " comment was a joke, of course. It, in no way, was directed at any specific poster. If some posters seek to lay claim to BEING a poophead, that is none of my business.


Well alrighty then here is my joke keeping it in general and not mentioning anyone specific. 

You'll have those turdfaces who blame their bad behavior on their BS.

Remember, I didn't direct that at anyone specific, just jokin'


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> And I believe a lot of the times the "cause" is that the person cheating just isn't suited for married life. They can't handle the "forsaking others" part and don't want to limit the number of different people they can have sex with.


Very possibly true. I have known several persons who were not good marriage material, from the gitgo. . But this begs the question about those persons who have a long history as good spouses, who, in their 2nd, 3rd or 4th decade of marriage, make the decision to cheat. That such persons have always been poor marriage material, simply because they BECAME cheaters at a much later date defies facts.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> Well alrighty then here is my joke keeping it in general and not mentioning anyone specific.
> 
> You'll have those turdfaces who blame their bad behavior on their BS.
> 
> Remember, I didn't direct that at anyone specific, just jokin'


And I thought you didn't have a sense of humor.


----------



## sidney2718

soulpotato said:


> Okay, I guess I have to assume that you are serious? Anyway, you are making tons of assumptions about me and know nothing about my story (argh, again in this thread, people not bothering to find anything out about a situation or a person before making assumptions).
> 
> First of all, I had 3 overlapping EAs. No PAs. I'm not married, though I would've liked to have been. My partner was a woman. I'm (we're) gay. She is a good person, and while she can be very selfish (as I obviously can as well), I think it's more about being deep in the grip of her FOO issues than anything else. We both have enough FOO and other psychological issues to go around.
> 
> Everything is open to interpretation. I cannot help if you want to interpret my words differently from how I mean them. I already said (again, I am not even sure which # this is) that the relationship issues had nothing to do with my cheating. Am I not allowed to talk about relationship issues and joint responsibility for said issues because I cheated? That is automatically blame-shifting to say there were problems in my relationship? I do not know how to explain this apparently without getting some of you all excited.
> 
> I'll try once more. The issues in the relationship with my partner did put pressure on my fracture points, which definitely affected me. That is a fact. My _responses_ to such stressors are not healthy ones, and I do not know my limits. My coping skills also apparently suck. *But I am still responsible for myself, and I made the wrong choices. I am 100% aware of this.* I have not spent all this time in therapy just to shrug off responsibility, be unaccountable, or to blame her for my behavior. You have not been present for any of my journey through this, nor have you even read enough of me to know I'm female. Which is just sad. But whatever, we're all internet strangers, can't expect anyone to care to learn, only to care enough to start with someone.
> 
> I am not sure what exactly you guys hope to achieve by trying to gang up on me. You want me to go away? You want me to shut up? What? Because I am already remorseful. You are not going to gain anything by targeting me. (Well, I guess it could be enjoyable for you.)


Infidelity damages people, the betrayed more than anyone else. Some are able to cope and get on with their lives. Others have residual problems. And some are so badly damaged that they NEED to have everyone in the same boat with them. I don't know if this applies to anyone here, but I've seen it in the real world.

If you want advice, you are going to have to ignore them.


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> How can telling the truth be blameshifting and justifying when the poster explicitly stated that full responsibility for the affair was accepted?


Because there is usually that "BUT" thrown in there.

One does not get to say, "the affair is 100% on me, BUT......"

No buts, either accept responsibility or don't.

Now they can say the affair is 100% on them, and then express the desire to get both of them to work on the marriage. But too often they tie the affair in with what the BS did or didn't do.


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> We all have faults. We all have weaknesses and flaws. Do affairs occur in good marriages and relationships? I'm sure they do. I guess this is one of those instances where the picture truly is interpreted by the one viewing it. One spouse might see the relationship as good while another sees it only as good enough. There is a large disparity there. But good enough can become inadequate very easily but only for the person in question. Without total honesty, excellent communication and hard work there is no way to know how the other half is really feeling.


I think DS and I had both become pretty unhappy over the years because of the issues and not being able to figure out how to work things out or communicate effectively (I don't think there was a big disparity in how we saw the relationship). Major communication issues - we have very different approaches to communication, and our issues also influence/d our communication. 

I really had no clue what to do about difficulty when trying to talk honestly about needs and relationship issues. Still didn't when we got back together. But maybe we just needed more IC and time for ourselves apart from the relationship. It's very challenging to work on both at once, and sometimes I think IC needs to come first before relationship issues can successfully be addressed.



bfree said:


> I know I work very hard to constantly "learn" my wife's non verbal cues because words often fail to convey the full context of the meaning. As for invalidating the WS's marital pre affair issues, I think it has a lot to do with trust. After infidelity it is extremely difficult to trust that your husband/wife is telling the truth about their feelings and issues about the BS and the marriage in general. After all, most affairs come with a heaping helping of lies and deceit so by that time trust is very hard to come by.


I've been working hard at that, too. Trying to figure out what else she means by her words, paying even more attention to body language and smaller cues than before. Well, I was referring more to TAM interactions with regard to invalidation (though DS can and does say invalidating things, too). We are able to see more of the problems now and how they affected us. I don't think she ever seemed to think I was lying about the problems. Maybe because I had already talked about all of those issues before. We both came from very invalidating backgrounds, so validation is something we have worked on in MC and continue working on in IC.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> And I thought you didn't have a sense of humor.


On the contrary, I laughed my ass off at your "poophead" comment knowing the real purpose of this thread, and that the comment helped solidify it.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

I think these sorts of clashes are necessary bad tasting medicine that occasionally help break through the black/white thinking - that the wayward isn't always evil incarnate and the BS isn't always an innocent victimized saint.

In the majority of cases, I tend to think there's plenty of faults in each. The contention is a given - often each can only see what was done to them. That dynamic and its attendant communication problems probably long existed in the marriage to create the unresolved dissatisfaction that is the breeding ground of many affairs. It may make one feel righteous to not have been the "weaker" person that caved in those circumstances - but it doesn't change the fact that they played a role. Being the stronger willed doesn't earn points if your actions were contributing to the eventual dissolution of the marriage regardless.

While some cases are totally about cake-eating, my impression is that most affairs aren't out of the blue. There's an un-communicated, unresolved or unidentified ongoing problem(s) that creates weakness, and eventually weakness meets opportunity. Even if an affair never occurs, the ongoing problem still kills the marriage - and both parties are responsible for their part in that root destabilization.


----------



## sidney2718

wayword said:


> Okay, I'll bite --
> 
> I've been chatting online and on the phone with men other than my husband. I got found out tonight when a 'friend' I usually can talk to texted me while he was home (he usually isn't around this time of night).
> 
> I feel bad, yes. I wish I didn't feel I had to talk to other men about the kinds of things we do talk about -- mostly sex, and if I'm a bad wife/mom/person/woman for wanting it. My husband was brought up in a religious household and doesn't think you should talk about sex, and that nobody wants to have "long drawn out conversations". (except me, but I'm a "freak".)
> 
> I'm not doing anything physical, but I know that doesn't excuse my behavior. I was -- am -- lonely, insecure, and needy. None attractive traits. I wanted someone to talk to -- and to feel, I don't know...like something besides a asexual old mother and a business partner of a wife. It was nice to flirt and talk about things I can't with anyone else. I thought i was sparing my husband uncomfortable things he didn't want to talk about but now I can't talk about them with *anyone*! He has television, a million channels i can't compete with, instead of talking to me.


Is seeking counseling in the cards? That can help you. If your husband would also go to his own counseling that would help even more.

But my best recommendation is that you start your own thread in Coping with Infidelity. This thread is mostly devoted to discussing the treatment of wayward wives here.

I will caution you that many will think you wrong for what you did. Some others, like me will feel that as long as nothing physical happened and no plans to meet were made that it is possible that your emotional affair (EA) will be forgiven. But more information is needed and I don't think this is the thread for it.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> On the contrary, I laughed my ass off at your "poophead" comment knowing the real purpose of this thread, and that the comment helped solidify it.


Well, I thought it was pretty funny, as well. Thanks for the compliment. But you still don't know about this thread, nor it's meaning. But you never will, so you might as well stop trying.


----------



## sidney2718

Mr. Dee said:


> Yes there was something missing. In me. *ME*. Not in my marriage. Not in my wife.
> 
> From what I've read, the "fog" usually makes cheaters notice any little thing to complain about their spouse, if they can find the smallest issue to turn into an excuse. But even my fog couldn't find anything. My xAP said the same thing you do, trying to convince me my marriage was garbage and I should leave it for her. I told her she was wrong.
> 
> I did not spend my affair telling myself "if only my wife would...." or "it's because she doesn't..." and I sure don't think these things now.


Was your affair partner exciting?


----------



## Rookie4

user_zero said:


> you've just dismissed everything I said , without actually saying the reasons for your disagreement. except acknowledging the part the fits your view and even then in a way that nothing can be said as a response to your post 'except agreeing with you'.
> 
> hummm.... :scratchhead:. you've changed. this is a different Rookie that the one I knew.


Well, two reasons. 1. I witnessed how much hard , soul-searching work my ex wife put into making herself a better person. 2. I have begun to think that this forum needs more balanced participation. Most of the posters are BS's and are all about anger and vengeance. I would prefer that this forum be more about learning and self improvement, for BOTH the WS and BS.


----------



## Wolf1974

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I think these sorts of clashes are necessary bad tasting medicine that occasionally help break through the black/white thinking - that the wayward isn't always evil incarnate and the BS isn't always an innocent victimized saint.
> 
> In the majority of cases, I tend to think there's plenty of faults in each. The contention is a given - often each can only see what was done to them. That dynamic and its attendant communication problems probably long existed in the marriage to create the unresolved dissatisfaction that is the breeding ground of many affairs. It may make one feel righteous to not have been the "weaker" person that caved in those circumstances - but it doesn't change the fact that they played a role. Being the stronger willed doesn't earn points if your actions were contributing to the eventual dissolution of the marriage regardless.
> 
> While some cases are totally about *cake-eating*, my impression is that most affairs aren't out of the blue. There's an un-communicated, unresolved or unidentified ongoing problem(s) that creates weakness, and eventually weakness meets opportunity. Even if an affair never occurs, the ongoing problem still kills the marriage - and both parties are responsible for their part in that root destabilization.


It's interesting that you put it that way. Guess my view from what I have seen is totally opposite. Most the affairs I hear about are these one night drunken nights out where things just "happen" or a work colleague or opposite sex friend whom the affair starts with. 

They start the affair because maybe they are bored or unsatisfied at home and that certainly makes up a percentage. But I have seen the large percentage go to the "caught up in the moment crowd" or they thought they would just get away with it.


----------



## user_zero

Rookie4 said:


> Very possibly true. I have known several persons who were not good marriage material, from the gitgo. . But this begs the question about those persons who have a long history as good spouses, who, in their 2nd, 3rd or 4th decade of marriage, make the decision to cheat. That such persons have always been poor marriage material, simply because they BECAME cheaters at a much later date defies facts.


cheating is self-destructive behavior which is based on selfishness , poor judgment of cost and value , poor morality , low-self esteem and self-center characteristics , ....

I'm sure if you look closely to these people's lives you can see the signs in different areas of their lives. it could be something very small but it's always there.

and about the people who cheat in 2nd , 3rd or 4th decade of their marriage: well I try to give my thoughts at best as I can. in our society there is a emphasize on getting this thought into our head that there is direct relation between being valued , being loved , having worth as a human being AND 'having a good sexy look'. especially in the case of women. if a woman doesn't have the so called right look , she is not of any value. we usually learn these beliefs in our childhood especially in high school.
now when a person reaches the 2nd , 3rd or 4th decade of their marriage , they are reaching their middle-age (or old-age) part of their life. they can see that they are changing. their body is changing. they believe that they are losing what gives them value. so they want approval from somewhere out there. so they (themselves) could give themselves approval. that I have worth. hence the so many cases of so called middle life crisis.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> Well, I thought it was pretty funny, as well. Thanks for the compliment. But you still don't know about this thread, nor it's meaning. But you never will, so you might as well stop trying.


When you said, "just as I thought" about the way this thread turned out, it was clear why you started it. You may want to welcome waywards, and that's great, but it isn't the ONLY reason you started this thread, and you know it, and with that comment, acknowledged it.


----------



## sidney2718

user_zero said:


> in fact , it is you who is being offensive and insulting. You're pushing Healer to get an emotional reaction from him.


Indeed not. Healer wrote:



> What you are actually asserting is that the BS caused the WS to cheat. And that's bullsh*t. Perhaps you caused your WS to cheat. But don't assign that blame to the other BS in the world. Speak for yourself and your WW. You clearly feel responsible for your wife's decision to step out on you. That's your problem - not ours.


And that's putting words in Rookie's mouth. He never said "the BS caused the WS to cheat." Nor did he say that he "clearly feel responsible for your wife's decision to step out on you." That's also putting words in Rookie's mouth. 

If what Healer wrote is causing Healer emotional distress, then I'm sure Rookie would join me in wishing him relieved of his distress.


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> That's funny you say she is a special case. For two years of reading here I would say she is literally the typical. Lots of blame shifting, lots of self justifying, lots of denial. Kinda textbook for here. What is rare is the WS who owns their affair. Those I see as the unicorn


Zanne is a special case and I'm not going to argue it.

And yes, it is rare for a WS to fully own their affair. But it does happen, and in some cases we (meaning the TAM community) has been able to help the WS see that they have to own the affair in order to even have a chance at reconciliation. And a number have taken that advice.

What I see is useless is to start out by advising the BS to kick the WS out because reconciliation will never work. Folks do not come here for advice on how to file for divorce. Many come here to find out if there is anything that can be done to save their marriage. Others come to see if their case is unique. And still others come to find folks who are in the same boat.

We can help all those groups, but it is not "one size fits all".


----------



## Rookie4

sidney2718 said:


> Indeed not. Healer wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> And that's putting words in Rookie's mouth. He never said "the BS caused the WS to cheat." Nor did he say that he "clearly feel responsible for your wife's decision to step out on you." That's also putting words in Rookie's mouth.
> 
> If what Healer wrote is causing Healer emotional distress, then I'm sure Rookie would join me in wishing him relieved of his distress.


Absolutely. I have no axe to grind with Healer. But please do not attempt to put words in my mouth , that I did not say.


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> Indeed not. Healer wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> And that's putting words in Rookie's mouth. He never said "the BS caused the WS to cheat." Nor did he say that he "clearly feel responsible for your wife's decision to step out on you." That's also putting words in Rookie's mouth.
> 
> If what Healer wrote is causing Healer emotional distress, then I'm sure Rookie would join me in wishing him relieved of his distress.


"Putting words in Rookie's mouth"? Oh please. I'm stating what I believe he is truly saying, which I think we all know. "Affairs happen for a reason". Again, if he doesn't mean that the "reason" the affair happened is because the BS is responsible too, what does he mean? Rookie? Otherwise, how insulting to everyone here to think we're so dumb we don't know things "cause" things to happen. Again, what do you mean?

Emotional distress? Lol. I'm OK, but your concern means a lot.


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> Still missing the earlier point. She didn't suddenly become unhealthy. She was carrying baggage from her past. Issues she claimed to have worked through and moved on from and I believed her. The marriage was healthy until she chose to bring unhealthy elements into the marriage. Nothing was wrong with the marriage.
> 
> And you can spin it all you want but she will be the first to admit, and did to me, that nothing was wrong with our marriage but was wrong with her personally. She managed to get through 8 years with no cheating then took an opportunity once provided.


I assume that you are talking about Zanne. I will not talk about Zanne. I will not because I regard her as ill and needing help and I strongly feel that she is not at all typical of cases that come here. In addition, I do not know her entire story and she's never going to be here again to present it.


----------



## Rookie4

I can say the same for Vellocet. He continues to state that He, in his infinite, perfect wisdom, knows more about my thread than I do, and attributes motives to me that I have never said. As long as he is so rude, I will limit my contact with him. If he stops, I have no problem debating the issues with him.


----------



## user_zero

Rookie4 said:


> Well, two reasons. 1. I witnessed how much hard , soul-searching work my ex wife put into making herself a better person. 2. I have begun to think that this forum needs more balanced participation. Most of the posters are BS's and are all about anger and vengeance. *I would prefer that this forum be more about learning and self improvement, for BOTH the WS and BS.*


what YOU prefer is not necessary helpful for the forum. and even then you're not doing it right. to be honest you're very bad at it.

we had a glimpse of what a more 'balanced' forum would look like here and I'm telling you it was quite ugly. we had a poster here who was doing everything she could to say the waywards are victims. they are weak. it's BS's fault that they get cheated on (of course only the case of BS being a male). it got to the point that even one moderator try to put sense into her in the most polite way he could. but it didn't get anywhere.

Rookie, there is a fine line between helping waywards reach a better (mentally/emotionally) place in their lives and giving them tools directly/indirectly to justify what they've done AND with all due respect ..... based on what you've been posting recently I don't believe that you know where that line is (at least in your current mindset).

as a fellow poster I politely suggest that you take a break from TAM for a while. trust me I've done it. it helps. what ever you choose I wish you good luck , regardless.


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> Can't stand what I wrote, eh? As for my story, you have no idea what it is or how it affects me.


We can imagine.


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> Zanne is a special case and I'm not going to argue it.
> 
> *course not. Doubt you'll answer but what made her case so special then cause I saw it as common*
> 
> And yes, it is rare for a WS to fully own their affair. But it does happen, and in some cases we (meaning the TAM community) has been able to help the WS see that they have to own the affair in order to even have a chance at reconciliation. And a number have taken that advice.
> *a small number indeed*
> 
> What I see is useless is to start out by advising the BS to kick the WS out because reconciliation will never work. Folks do not come here for advice on how to file for divorce. Many come here to find out if there is anything that can be done to save their marriage. Others come to see if their case is unique. And still others come to find folks who are in the same boat.
> 
> *don't see a lot of advising they immediately leave. But that is an option and should be pointed out as such. Reconciliation won't work for all people. As you say below one size doesn't fit all*
> 
> We can help all those groups, but it is not "one size fits all".


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Then I guess that you and I have nothing to talk about. Sokay by me.


But something had to cause you to type that. Typing doesn't just happen for no reason.


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> I assume that you are talking about Zanne. I will not talk about Zanne. I will not because I regard her as ill and needing help and I strongly feel that she is not at all typical of cases that come here. In addition, I do not know her entire story and she's never going to be here again to present it.


No you were referencing my x spouse. Not Zanne


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> bingo!


I think your understanding of the word "harass" may be a bit...off.


----------



## Wolf1974

Healer said:


> I think your understanding of the word "harass" may be a bit...off.


Kinda what I gather. Suddenly opposing viewpoints is harassment. It's fascinating really.


----------



## Healer

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> ...unresolved dissatisfaction that is the breeding ground of many affairs.


Just out of curiosity, did you cheat on your wife?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Wolf1974 said:


> It's interesting that you put it that way. Guess my view from what I have seen is totally opposite. Most the affairs I hear about are these one night drunken nights out where things just "happen" or a work colleague or opposite sex friend whom the affair starts with.
> 
> They start the affair because maybe they are bored or unsatisfied at home and that certainly makes up a percentage. But I have seen the large percentage go to the "caught up in the moment crowd" or they thought they would just get away with it.


When its a random one-time happenstance, they're less likely to be discovered at all. My impression is the repeats who get caught generally have some of those unresolved issues at home. Accepting the advances of "work colleague" I'd argue is rooted in problems at home. I don't think most people who are happy with their relationships cheat as such.


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> I 100% agree with you that men and women speak almost different languages.
> 
> I don't understand your second point. So if a spouse can't afford a divorce it's ok for them to cheat? Trying to understand what your second paragraph meant


Language and gender - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do men and women speak the same language? | World news | The Guardian

And there are many many more. We've even had threads on TAM about it. It is the cause of an enormous number of problems, both in marriage and out.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Healer said:


> Just out of curiosity, did you cheat on your wife?


Yep.

But the shoe's been on the other foot as well. I've been cheated on by a different woman before.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> No you were referencing my x spouse. Not Zanne


AS I understand it, Zanne has been banned. Is that right? If and when she is off her ban, is the time to address her situation, but like Sidney, I feel that she has some serious issues.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Well, two reasons. 1. I witnessed how much hard , soul-searching work my ex wife put into making herself a better person. 2. I have begun to think that this forum needs more balanced participation. Most of the posters are BS's and are all about anger and vengeance. I would prefer that this forum be more about learning and self improvement, for BOTH the WS and BS.


Anger is expressed when people blame-shift onto the BS.

Vengeance? Expressing disgust at heinous behavior and the passing off of responsibility for said behavior to someone not responsible isn't "vengeance". It's words on a computer screen.


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> Zanne is a special case and I'm not going to argue it.


Zanne is a cliche of a cheater. Textbook.


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> But something had to cause you to type that. Typing doesn't just happen for no reason.


Healer, I am sorry that my posts upset you. If you want to debate issues, I'm your huckleberry. But please keep it to what I say . If you don't want to interact, that's OK too.


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> I assume that you are talking about Zanne. *I will not talk about Zanne*. I will not because *I regard her as ill and needing help and I strongly feel that she is not at all typical of cases that come here. In addition, I do not know her entire story and she's never going to be here again to present it.*


I thought you said you wouldn't talk about Zanne.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I can say the same for Vellocet. He continues to state that He, in his infinite, perfect wisdom, knows more about my thread than I do, and attributes motives to me that I have never said. As long as he is so rude, I will limit my contact with him. If he stops, I have no problem debating the issues with him.


He's just calling it like we see it.


----------



## Rookie4

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Yep.
> 
> But the shoe's been on the other foot as well. I've been cheated on by a different woman before.


So, do you view yourself as a WS or a BS or both? I would be interested in your opinions.


----------



## Wolf1974

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> When its a random one-time happenstance, they're less likely to be discovered at all. My impression is the repeats who get caught generally have some of those unresolved issues at home. Accepting the advances of "work colleague" I'd argue is rooted in problems at home. I don't think most people who are happy with their relationships cheat as such.


Certainly not been my experience. I have found the problem rooted in the person with whom has affair regardless of the bad or good marriage. Seen it enough to call it a character issue, a fault in the person. 

No disputing that bad marriages generally, but not always, have faults found with both spouses. But when one hits another that abuse is on them. When one cheats on another same thing. We take those acts and link them to the person who committed the fault. Bad marriage = both fault. Affair = the cheaters fault 

Someone earlier said something I found profound but I lost it. That maybe WS shouldn't be the type to marry at all because they are incapable of putting the needs of their spouse first. Might be something to that for sure. That type of self reflection would be rare to find though


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> AS I understand it, Zanne has been banned. Is that right? If and when she is off her ban, is the time to address her situation, but like Sidney, I feel that she has some serious issues.


Cool


What's that got to do with my x spouse then?


----------



## Rookie4

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Yep.
> 
> But the shoe's been on the other foot as well. I've been cheated on by a different woman before.


It takes courage to admit this.


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> Language and gender - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Do men and women speak the same language? | World news | The Guardian
> 
> And there are many many more. We've even had threads on TAM about it. It is the cause of an enormous number of problems, both in marriage and out.


That's great. Still agree with you

But what was the point of your second paragraph cause it came across as you are saying cheating is deserved if the WS can't afford to leave. That's what I was trying to understand


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> So, do you view yourself as a WS or a BS or both? I would be interested in your opinions.


I am not going to speak for him, but I would think he views himself as both. It would make sense, actually. He knows how it feels from both sides.


----------



## Healer

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't think most people who are happy with their relationships cheat as such.


This is almost as riveting a revelation as "Things don't happen for no reason".

Being unhappy is not justification, or grounds, or _whatever_ you want to call it for lying, deceiving, emotionally abusing, breaking vows, destroying others' lives (including children) etc etc.

There are 2 decent, honorable, high character, non-scumbag ways to deal with a marriage you aren't happy with:

1. Attempt to fix it and carry on
2. If that can't be done, divorce.

There is no excuse for cheating, and cheating is 100% the responsibility, choice and fault of the cheater.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Cool
> 
> 
> What's that got to do with my x spouse then?


Don't know what to tell you. She sounds pretty heartless to me, but then again, I don't know your whole story, so will refrain from comment, until you relate it all or I get enough to offer an opinion. Has she ever been on TAM?


----------



## Wolf1974

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Yep.
> 
> But the shoe's been on the other foot as well. I've been cheated on by a different woman before.


Just out of curiosity were you cheated on before or after you cheated. 

I've never been the kind that would cheat anyway but certainly now would never cause that kinda hurt to someone like I went through. Just wondering which came first 

So if you cheated first then were cheated on did you gain perspective of the pain you caused?


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Healer, I am sorry that my posts upset you. If you want to debate issues, I'm your huckleberry. But please keep it to what I say . If you don't want to interact, that's OK too.


They don't upset me, they amuse me.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Don't know what to tell you. She sounds pretty heartless to me, but then again, I don't know your whole story, so will refrain from comment, until you relate it all or I get enough to offer an opinion. Has she ever been on TAM?


My story is posted. Rehashed most of it on this thread again.

And I don't think she is on tam. Certainly wouldn't be in this forum anyway


----------



## Healer

Russell: Do you assert that the BS bares responsibility for the infidelity, or caused the WS to cheat?


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> My story is posted. Rehashed most of it on this thread again.
> 
> And I don't think she is on tam. Certainly wouldn't be in this forum anyway


Okay then.


----------



## nickgtg

Rookie4 said:


> It takes courage to admit this.


Courage? Admitting you're a cheater is courage? I guess we have different definitions of what courage is.


----------



## EI

user_zero said:


> hummm.... :scratchhead:. you've changed. this is a different Rookie that the one I knew.


I think what you're seeing in Rookie is the result of personal growth. Some experience it sooner, some later, unfortunately, some never do. 

Our own lives often teach us lessons that we can never learn on an anonymous Internet forum. 

Rookie, you are a very different man than the one who first joined TAM back in November, 2012. Since that time, your life has taken many different twists and turns. Each step of the way, you have given it your all. And, you still are. 

While you did not ultimately reconcile your marriage/partnership with your ex-wife, you and Sweetie did a beautiful job of building a new relationship as friends, co-parents, and now, grandparents, together. Now, you're happy, you're in a positive romantic relationship with a new love, and you are on excellent terms with your ex-WW.

It rarely works that way. It would require, both, a genuinely remorseful ex-WS, and a very compassionate and forgiving BS. That you would both invest THAT much work into being happy, healthy, and well-adjusted ex-spouses, speaks very highly of both of you. And, of your new lady love, as well. 

Congrats to all of you! You have accomplished something very few ever will.


----------



## doubletrouble

nickgtg said:


> Courage? Admitting you're a cheater is courage? I guess we have different definitions of what courage is.


It takes courage around here.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



doubletrouble said:


> It takes courage around here.


Indeed. That was what I thought as well. It DOES take courage for someone to admit to doing wrong. It DOES take courage to walk into the lion's den and hope not to be ripped to shreds. Because that's exactly how it is around here. Even those who are remorseful.


----------



## sidney2718

Healer said:


> I thought you said you wouldn't talk about Zanne.


I shall be nice. I am responding to the post above. It will not appear right after the post above, but many posts further downthread.

That's because I did not see it the minute you posted it and when I did see it many other posts intervened.

Perhaps you knew this. But it leaves me with a dilemma. Shall I attribute your post to ignorance or to something else?


----------



## Healer

sidney2718 said:


> I shall be nice. I am responding to the post above. It will not appear right after the post above, but many posts further downthread.
> 
> That's because I did not see it the minute you posted it and when I did see it many other posts intervened.
> 
> Perhaps you knew this. But it leaves me with a dilemma. Shall I attribute your post to ignorance or to something else?


In the *same post*, you typed you would not talk about Zanne. DIRECTLY below that, you proceeded to talk about Zanne.

Ignorance or something else....hmmmm.

ETA, as you will surely ask me to quote where you said this:



sidney2718 said:


> I assume that you are talking about Zanne. *I will not talk about Zanne*. *I will not because I regard her as ill and needing help and I strongly feel that she is not at all typical of cases that come here. In addition, I do not know her entire story and she's never going to be here again to present it.*


----------



## Thundarr

sidney2718 said:


> How can telling the truth be blameshifting and justifying when the poster explicitly stated that full responsibility for the affair was accepted?


I noticed that too. A wayward can prefaced every comment 'cheating was the wrong choice', but still any hint that the other partner contributed to the bad place in the marriage and the wayward gets attacked. It's as if after someone has cheated, it's no longer two people anymore. It becomes WS and BS. Nothing before, during, or after seems to matter except that WS cheated.

Here's why. BSs take special offense because our WSs did not accept responsibility and our WSs blame shifted onto us. I guarantee that my EX felt justified in her cheating because she wasn't happy. So obviously it was my fault for not making her happy (sarcasm). 

I never accepted any of the blame for her cheating and but I sure as h3ll analyzed the situation and made some changes in myself. Thinking I had control and could fix things for example was a problem I had. Blind trust was another. Personal boundaries was another. Not paying attention to red flags was another. And by red flags I don't just mean cheating red flags. I'm talking about character red flags before ever letting things get too serious.


----------



## nickgtg

doubletrouble said:


> It takes courage around here.


On an anonymous board hiding behind a keyboard? Again, we have different definitions.


----------



## Healer

Thundarr said:


> Thinking I had control and could fix things for example was a problem I had. Blind trust was another. Personal boundaries was another. Not paying attention to red flags was another. And by red flags I don't just mean cheating red flags. I'm talking about character red flags before ever letting things get too serious.


Fixing these things in yourself is great - nobody is disputing that.


----------



## nickgtg

Healer, that took courage to like my post.


----------



## Thundarr

vellocet said:


> Because there is usually that "BUT" thrown in there.
> 
> *One does not get to say, "the affair is 100% on me, BUT......"
> *
> No buts, either accept responsibility or don't.
> 
> Now they can say the affair is 100% on them, and then express the desire to get both of them to work on the marriage. But too often they tie the affair in with what the BS did or didn't do.


Of course one gets to say that. It's separate issues. Issue #1 is the infidelity and that's a bad choice 100% on the WS. Issue #2 is the state of everything that lead to the WS cheating. 

Okay I get that the WS's perspective will usually be skewed in some way to save face or push some blame. But the only way to avoid repeating mistakes is to analyze what lead to the mistakes. Both the WS and the BS need to do this.


----------



## Healer

nickgtg said:


> Healer, that took courage to like my post.


Lol. Thanks broheem.


----------



## Healer

Thundarr said:


> Of course one gets to say that. It's separate issues. Issue #1 is the infidelity and that's a bad choice 100% on the WS. Issue #2 is the state of *everything that lead to the WS cheating.*


Another one! People who commit adultery are, well, adults. Nobody leads an adult to do anything, unless we're talking about coercion or kidnapping or duress or rape. Cheating is a choice, a *conscious choice * made by ONE person in the marriage. If they were "lead" to cheat, why were they not instead "lead" to do the honorable, decent, noble thing, and divorce, _then_ go skank around?

FREE WILL. All adults have it. We are not sheep. The action of rubbing your genitals on someone other then your spouse is not some Jedi mind trick used by some other force or the BS. It's strictly, 100% a decision and therefore responsibility of the person doing the genital rubbing.

Accountability - it's a real thing, no matter how much some people don't want it to be.


----------



## Thundarr

Thundarr said:


> Issue #1 is the infidelity and that's a bad choice 100% on the WS. Issue #2 is the state of everything that lead to the WS cheating.
> 
> 
> 
> Healer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another one! People who commit adultery are, well, adults. Nobody leads an adult to do anything, unless we're talking about coercion or kidnapping or duress or rape. Cheating is a choice, a *conscious choice * made by ONE person in the marriage. If they were "lead" to cheat, why were they not instead "lead" to do the honorable, decent, noble thing, and divorce, _then_ go skank around?
> 
> FREE WILL. All adults have it. We are not sheep. The action of rubbing your genitals on someone other then your spouse is not some Jedi mind trick used by some other force or the BS. It's strictly, 100% a decision and therefore responsibility of the person doing the genital rubbing.
> 
> Accountability - it's a real thing, no matter how much some people don't want it to be.
> 
> 
> 
> So you learned nothing. No red flags. There were no weak boundaries. Everything was just perfect and there is nothing you would go back and do differently. You don't know any weak character traits that made WS vulnerable to cheating. You called WS out every time WS was disrespectful. WS covered tracks like a champ.
> 
> These are things I think we're supposed to look at unless we want to pick the same type of person and then rinse and repeat cycle. WSs have to look at things that made them make a bad choice as well if they want to be a former WS and not a serial WS.
Click to expand...


----------



## Rookie4

Thundarr said:


> Of course one gets to say that. It's separate issues. Issue #1 is the infidelity and that's a bad choice 100% on the WS. Issue #2 is the state of everything that lead to the WS cheating.
> 
> Okay I get that the WS's perspective will usually be skewed in some way to save face or push some blame. But the only way to avoid repeating mistakes is to analyze what lead to the mistakes. Both the WS and the BS need to do this.


What you need to understand , Thundarr , is that EVERYTHING bad about the marriage is the WS's fault.......period. From the beginning of the earth until now. All BS's are innocent victims and all WS's are evil, conniving tramps. Even , long time married WS's were probably just concealing their evil for 20, 30 or more years, in order to inflict the most damage on their wonderful, Angelic Spouses. Or the BS had the perfect marriage, and the WS woke up suddenly and decided to cheat , without any reason , whatsoever.
If you don't follow the party line, you will be attacked. Hope I could clear this up for you.


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> I think what you're seeing in Rookie is the result of personal growth. Some experience it sooner, some later, unfortunately, some never do.
> 
> Our own lives often teach us lessons that we can never learn on an anonymous Internet forum.
> 
> Rookie, you are a very different man than the one who first joined TAM back in November, 2012. Since that time, your life has taken many different twists and turns. Each step of the way, you have given it your all. And, you still are.
> 
> While you did not ultimately reconcile your marriage/partnership with your ex-wife, you and Sweetie did a beautiful job of building a new relationship as friends, co-parents, and now, grandparents, together. Now, you're happy, you're in positive romantic relationship with a new love, and you are on excellent terms with your ex-WW.
> 
> It rarely works that way. It would require, both, a genuinely remorseful ex-WS, and a very compassionate and forgiving BS. For both of you to invest THAT much work into being happy, healthy, and well-adjusted ex-spouses, speaks very highly of both of you. And, of your new lady love, as well.
> 
> Congrats to all of you! You have accomplished something very few ever will.


Like you and B1, sometimes it takes time to begin to use the little grey cells, instead of following the mob. You guys are wonderful, and I know you will succeed.


----------



## Thundarr

Rookie4 said:


> If you don't follow the party line, you will be attacked. Hope I could clear this up for you.


It is very similar to a political or religious debate where people pick sides. But there is a middle that gets completely overlooked.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> What you need to understand , Thundarr , is that EVERYTHING bad about the marriage is the WS's fault.......period. From the beginning of the earth until now. All BS's are innocent victims and all WS's are evil, conniving tramps. Even , long time married WS's were probably just concealing their evil for 20, 30 or more years, in order to inflict the most damage on their wonderful, Angelic Spouses. Or the BS had the perfect marriage, and the WS woke up suddenly and decided to cheat , without any reason , whatsoever.
> If you don't follow the party line, you will be attacked. Hope I could clear this up for you.



See that's the thing - nobody has said "EVERYTHING bad about the marriage is the WS's fault.......period." Nobody. 

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to comprehend. I think it's been typed about 10 million times in 10 million different ways 'round these parts.

Where's the pull quote feature??

*The state of the marriage before the adultery is on both spouses. The adultery is solely on the cheater.* 

At first my stbxw tried to blameshift. "You weren't perfect either". "We had problems before I cheated". Yup. I agreed to all of that. I was not perfect. Nobody is. And I certainly did not expect perfection from her. And she was far from it - even before cheating. Yup - our marriage had its problems. All marriages do.

I know it's profound. Take your time.

Then my stbxw went to IC - for a good long while. You know what she learned, and told me? That it was NOT my fault, I did nothing to deserve what she did to me and our family, that she is so sorry and that I couldn't have done anything to stop her from cheating, because she was a broken, messed up person that brought toxicity into our marriage. 

Now that there, that's some personal growth. Too late of course, but at least the next guy in her life will hopefully be a little more fortunate.


----------



## Healer

Thundarr said:


> It is very similar to a political or religious debate where people pick sides. But there is a middle that gets completely overlooked.


You're actually equating Republican vs Democrat to Faithful spouse vs unfaithful spouse?

That's funny!


----------



## Wolf1974

Healer said:


> See that's the thing - nobody has said "EVERYTHING bad about the marriage is the WS's fault.......period." Nobody.
> 
> I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to comprehend. I think it's been typed about 10 million times in 10 million different ways 'round these parts.
> 
> Where's the pull quote feature??
> 
> *The state of the marriage before the adultery is on both spouses. The adultery is solely on the cheater.*
> 
> At first my stbxw tried to blameshift. "You weren't perfect either". "We had problems before I cheated". Yup. I agreed to all of that. I was not perfect. Nobody is. And I certainly did not expect perfection from her. And she was far from it - even before cheating. Yup - our marriage had its problems. All marriages do.
> 
> I know it's profound. Take your time.
> 
> Then my stbxw went to IC - for a good long while. You know what she learned, and told me? That it was NOT my fault, I did nothing to deserve what she did to me and our family, that she is so sorry and that I couldn't have done anything to stop her from cheating, because she was a broken, messed up person that brought toxicity into our marriage.
> 
> Now that there, that's some personal growth. Too late of course, but at least the next guy in her life will hopefully be a little more fortunate.



Not that he can't comprehend it. Chooses not to because doesn't further the argument. Just about all
The BS here have said at one time or another that a bad marriage and an affair a separate issues. That a bad
Marriage may or may not have 2 contributing parties making it bad. But an affair is a selfish choice made by one individual in the marriage. Course
If we were to acknowledge that then we would have to admit some make bad and selfish decisions and that those decisions were made of their own accord.
Because we can't ever have accountability in this day and age
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

Wolf1974 said:


> Not that he can't comprehend it. Chooses not to because doesn't further the argument. Just about all
> The BS here have said at one time or another that a bad marriage and an affair a separate issues. That a bad
> Marriage may or may not have 2 contributing parties making it bad. But an affair is a selfish choice made by one individual in the marriage. Course
> If we were to acknowledge that then we would have to admit some make bad and selfish decisions and that those decisions were made of their own accord.
> Because we can't ever have accountability in this day and age
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True. Some people just refuse to take accountability for their own actions. People that blame shift to the BS are just wired this way. They just can't accept that cheaters are what they are, and that they, and they alone, made the decision to go outside the marriage and break the vows, cheat, lie, deceive, and cause pain and suffering. That they are adults, with free will, and make their own decisions, and that nobody else made that decision or "drove them" to do it. They *wanted* it, _they_ did it. 

Sometimes it's hard to be a grown up and be held accountable.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Rookie4 said:


> So, do you view yourself as a WS or a BS or both? I would be interested in your opinions.


Definitely more a WS. Being cheated on myself occurred later, a bit of karma if you will, but in the immediate aftermath - I totally understood how it came about (it still pisses you off even as a past cheater... even though you know how hypocritical it is for a cheater to be pissed at a cheater).

I recognized many things from my own experience in the circumstances of the woman who cheated on me that caused me to realize a number of ways I was contributing to a bad dynamic in both cases. And having been on both sides, its a little easier to step out of it and admit/see how you contributed to that environment, without feeling that it's letting the cheater off the hook. Admitting your own sins to yourself does not absolve others of theirs, but it certainly lightens the load of self-righteousness - which honestly, is a burden almost as heavy as guilt.


----------



## Regret214

Isn't it a paradox?

Marriage prior to an affair - both parties responsible.

Affair - 100% on the wayward.


So. When a wayward talks about problems before the affair they are shouted down. The dynamic of human relations is so tremendously deep that one cannot merely judge an affair by the affair alone. There are just too many dynamics. That does not justify the decision to have an affair. That, in my opinion, happens when someone does not have good coping mechanisms. Yet, even then, that's not the only answer because of human dynamics.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

So, you don't believe that the reason that the marriage is in a bad state in the first place, prior to infidelity could be because the BS blame shifts, breaks vows, cheats, lies and deceives?

So it's ok if I destroy my marriage and don't take accountability as long as I'm not f*cking someone else?

I'm not going to try and change the minds of folks like you Healer, but I don't agree with your score-keeping at all.

It isn't ok to cheat, nor is it ok to sh!t all over your marriage and expect your partner to honor their vows.

I don't advocate infidelity, and you can keep throwing up the 'they made the choice to cheat' all you like. You aren't incorrect. But if you truly believe that the state of the marriage has or should have no bearing on the choices or behavior that your spouse makes as a result, that isn't just blame shifting, it's blame dumping.

I'd further specify that the only circumstance someone really DOES need to evaluate their own behavior or contribution to the state of the marriage in the case of infidelity, is if if they plan on reconciling. 

Affairs rarely happen in vacuum.

Reconciliation can't possibly happen in a vacuum.

You need to know what wasn't working, and make the appropriate changes that you can, and are willing to make on the personal front, and as it relates to interacting with your spouse if you want the relationship to heal. That goes for both the wayward and the betrayed.



Healer said:


> True. Some people just refuse to take accountability for their own actions. People that blame shift to the BS are just wired this way. They just can't accept that cheaters are what they are, and that they, and they alone, made the decision to go outside the marriage and break the vows, cheat, lie, deceive, and cause pain and suffering. That they are adults, with free will, and make their own decisions, and that nobody else made that decision or "drove them" to do it. They *wanted* it, _they_ did it.
> 
> Sometimes it's hard to be a grown up and be held accountable.


----------



## Thundarr

Thundarr said:


> It is very similar to a political or religious debate where people pick sides. But there is a middle that gets completely overlooked.





Healer said:


> You're actually equating Republican vs Democrat to Faithful spouse vs unfaithful spouse?
> 
> That's funny!


Just stop it. Obviously you know better.


----------



## Healer

Regret214 said:


> Isn't it a paradox?
> 
> Marriage prior to an affair - both parties responsible.
> 
> Affair - 100% on the wayward.
> 
> 
> So. When a wayward talks about problems before the affair they are shouted down. The dynamic of human relations is so tremendously deep that one cannot merely judge an affair by the affair alone. There are just too many dynamics. That does not justify the decision to have an affair. That, in my opinion, happens when someone does not have good coping mechanisms. Yet, even then, that's not the only answer because of human dynamics.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Poor coping mechanisms may be part of the problem - but simplifying it down to that is quite the cop out. But let's not forget selfishness, cruelty, entitlement, boredom, poor character, lack of boundaries...not all people who cheat are "coping" with something. Many just are bored, horny, want some strange, want the thrill of something new. Not all people who cheat are somehow afflicted.


----------



## Healer

Thundarr said:


> Just stop it. Obviously you know better.


I certainly do know better than to fall for _that_ comparison!


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> Isn't it a paradox?
> 
> Marriage prior to an affair - both parties responsible.
> 
> Affair - 100% on the wayward.
> 
> 
> So. When a wayward talks about problems before the affair they are shouted down. The dynamic of human relations is so tremendously deep that one cannot merely judge an affair by the affair alone. There are just too many dynamics. That does not justify the decision to have an affair. That, in my opinion, happens when someone does not have good coping mechanisms. Yet, even then, that's not the only answer because of human dynamics.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why can't they be judged by the affair alone. You have two people working at or destroying a marriage. If
Both people are unhappy and only one cheats that's on the cheater. Otherwise everyone would just cheat when they are unhappy and of course that
Doesn't happen. Also then how would you account for a happy marriage where one spouse gets drunk on a gno or bno and commits a one night affair with stranger. They were both happy and now got caught up in this moment of drunkness. The marriage isn't at fault. The decision making of one spouse is
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

As I said Wolf, it's a paradox. 

I think Deejo did a much better job explaining it than I did anyway. Feel free to address him next.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

I will however state that even a ONS shows an unhealthy marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

Deejo said:


> So, you don't believe that the reason that the marriage is in a bad state in the first place, prior to infidelity could be because the BS blame shifts, breaks vows, cheats, lies and deceives?


Where did I type that? Of course - there are many heinous spouses who make life miserable for their spouse, that never cheated themselves. I've never said being a BS made someone a saint or a good person by default.



Deejo said:


> So it's ok if I destroy my marriage and don't take accountability as long as I'm not f*cking someone else?


Mmmm nope - never typed that either.



Deejo said:


> I'm not going to try and change the minds of folks like you Healer, but I don't agree with your score-keeping at all.


"Folks like me"? Uhhhh, OK.



Deejo said:


> It isn't ok to cheat, nor is it ok to sh!t all over your marriage and expect your partner to honor their vows.


To whom are you referring? I never "sh!t all over my marriage".



Deejo said:


> I don't advocate infidelity


Glad to hear that.



Deejo said:


> and you can keep throwing up the 'they made the choice to cheat' all you like.


Don't need to throw it, we all know it's a fact.



Deejo said:


> But if you truly believe that the state of the marriage has or should have no bearing on the choices or behavior that your spouse makes as a result, that isn't just blame shifting, it's blame dumping.


"Choices or behavior" - these are vast in scope. I'm referring specifically to adultery. And I expect a married person to end the marriage before going behind their spouses back and having sex with someone else, risking STD infection, etc. If they're that miserable, leave the marriage. Divorce is legal, and totally ethical if you are in a terrible marriage. Just like screwing someone else, divorce is a choice, and a readily available one. Just like cheating.



Deejo said:


> I'd further specify that the only circumstance someone really DOES need to evaluate their own behavior or contribution to the state of the marriage in the case of infidelity, is if if they plan on reconciling.


Nah. The end of my marriage certainly made me take a good look at myself.



Deejo said:


> Affairs rarely happen in vacuum.


I've read this before but I don't really understand what it's supposed to mean.


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> As I said Wolf, it's a paradox.
> 
> I think Deejo did a much better job explaining it than I did anyway. Feel free to address him next.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well I was asking you cause you said paradox, didn't see it that way so thought I would ask. It's fine if you don't want to
Elaborate
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Healer said:


> This is almost as riveting a revelation as "Things don't happen for no reason".
> 
> Being unhappy is not justification, or grounds, or _whatever_ you want to call it for lying, deceiving, emotionally abusing, breaking vows, destroying others' lives (including children) etc etc.
> 
> There are 2 decent, honorable, high character, non-scumbag ways to deal with a marriage you aren't happy with:
> 
> 1. Attempt to fix it and carry on
> 2. If that can't be done, divorce.
> 
> There is no excuse for cheating, and cheating is 100% the responsibility, choice and fault of the cheater.


Explaining is not excusing. Cheating, by an otherwise relatively healthy, normal individual, is built on weakness and fear. Will things be better or worse if I divorce? What if I regret it? Is it better to have a bitter walk away wife who didn't cheat? Still hurts, no? But if she had just left, you'd be able to acknowledge the role you played in her changed feelings for you right? Maybe? The only difference between this and cheating, is the cheater's fear of the future - its that fear that sends them cheating instead of leaving. Absent that fear, they'd have already left.

By no means am I saying cheating is justified. I'm saying I understand it in some circumstances, and that usually both parties played a role in those circumstances that gave it fertile soil to take root. Its not always about cake-eating.

To put one's head in the sand in self-righteousness and say that cheating is all about the cheater's evil is short sighted - honestly just sets you up to have the same problems with another person down the line... because much of the time, some behaviors of yours probably contributed to the detachment of your partner and will likely do so again. When it applies, recognizing the ways in which you can better promote and renew the relationship, and acknowledge (and act on) their needs/concerns, before it ever reaches that point is valuable. My EW for example, said in MC that she never realized. That things I tried to get across seemed so obvious now... she admitted to having been consumed in her own little world. We didn't end up reconciling, but if that acknowledgement never occurred - there is simply no way I could have ever reconciled. That was the heart of my resentment and bitterness - the source of my apathy.

When an otherwise healthy person cheats, what I think they're really saying is "I'm weak and afraid. I'd leave you if I weren't afraid of the uncertainty of whether I'd be even worse off." A lot of times the issues in the relationship have built themselves up for a long, long time... and the WS has given up on trying to fix them. That was my experience as a wayward, but as a betrayed, I realized that I failed to acknowledge the ways she tried to relate her dissatisfaction - I couldn't see them until after the fact, but when I did... lo and behold I saw myself reflected. 

Excepting cake-eaters... I believe apathy breeds affairs and it takes awhile for apathy to set in. It's not justifying or excusing cheating to acknowledge how one contributed to that apathy. Not recognizing the role one may have played in it, by neglect, failure to communicate, being involved or whatever it is... doesn't bode well for future relationships. Even if they have the strength and fearlessness to end the relationship outright and not cheat... its still over, and not something you wanted. Not a much better outcome.

But hey, this is just my insight after having been in both worlds. Take it or leave it. Ultimately, I believe that one's spouse being weak enough to have cheated rather than leave, does not absolve one of all the negative behaviors that would have made them leave if not for being weak.


----------



## nickgtg

Regret214 said:


> As I said Wolf, it's a paradox.
> 
> I think Deejo did a much better job explaining it than I did anyway. Feel free to address him next.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Really? I thought it was one of the worst posts I've ever read.


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> I will however state that even a ONS shows an unhealthy marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Really? So under no circumstances can a spouse make an uncharacteristic mistake and have a one night stand? It has to be that the marriage is bad?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

Wolf1974 said:


> Well I was asking you cause you said paradox, didn't see it that way so thought I would ask. It's fine if you don't want to
> Elaborate
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think Deejo did a better job than I did at explaining it. The paradox, as I see it in this forum is that everyone says the marriage prior to the affair is 50/50 and that the affair itself is 100% on the wayward. I believe that. However, when a wayward SPEAKS about the marriage PRIOR to the affair, they are shouted down for blame shifting, not accepting responsibility, etc.

You can't have it both ways.


Also, Healer, it seems to me that Deejo was not speaking only to you, yet you personalized everything he said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

nickgtg said:


> Really? I thought it was one of the worst posts I've ever read.


Great. What's your story? How did you come to CWI?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doubletrouble

nickgtg said:


> On an anonymous board hiding behind a keyboard? Again, we have different definitions.


Ah, you've hit on something there my friend. No, being anonymous behind a keyboard and the internet is not courageous, generally speaking. I agree, and people take advantage of that every day. Not just on TAM. 

But it takes courage to tell a deeply personal story, and have faith that complete strangers, who are related through the experience of infidelity or other marriage issues as dealt with here, won't take pot shots at you. That you will get help with your situation. 

There are real feelings and emotions in the person at the keyboard. Some things that are talked about here, even friends or relatives don't know about. And even if it's the anonymous internet, the feelings are real, the stories are real -- and the pot shots can hurt. 

So in that regard, it takes courage to post here. It's not like taking a round for a buddy or snatching a baby from a barrel going over a waterfall. It's not that intense. But it's still courage.


----------



## Regret214

Wolf1974 said:


> Really? So under no circumstances can a spouse make an uncharacteristic mistake and have a one night stand? It has to be that the marriage is bad?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unhealthy? Yes. There's no mistakenly having a penis in a vagina. Uncharacteristic or not = unhealthy marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

Wolf1974 said:


> The BS here have said at one time or another that a bad marriage and an affair a separate issues. That a bad
> Marriage may or may not have 2 contributing parties making it bad. But an affair is a selfish choice made by one individual in the marriage.


I agree with that completely. The thing is, merely saying that BSs should look back and evaluate seems offensive to some. I'm no WS or WS sympathizer yet my last few comments have gotten misquoted deliberately and taken completely out of context and then argued with a straw man (not by you Wolf). I think you'll find almost everyone including waywards and OP agree with the part of your comment that I quoted.


----------



## Healer

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> You're stuck on explanation as excusing.


And you're stuck on a long winded way of saying the actions of the BS are what caused the WS to cheat.

WS and BS simply don't think the same way. You found justification for cheating in your wife's behavior - whatever it was. Now, from guilt, you look at yourself and say "well, because of my actions, my wife cheated on me".

I have no problem with the assertion that BS can learn and better themselves for the next relationship. Life is all about learning and growing. That's fine and dandy. That's not what I'm arguing.


----------



## Healer

Regret214 said:


> I think Deejo did a better job than I did at explaining it. The paradox, as I see it in this forum is that everyone says the marriage prior to the affair is 50/50 and that the affair itself is 100% on the wayward. I believe that. However, when a wayward SPEAKS about the marriage PRIOR to the affair, they are shouted down for blame shifting, not accepting responsibility, etc.
> 
> You can't have it both ways.
> 
> 
> Also, Healer, it seems to me that Deejo was not speaking only to you, yet you personalized everything he said.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Uhh, he posted directly to me, so I addressed his posts. From whose perspective am I supposed to reply??


----------



## Healer

Regret214 said:


> Unhealthy? Yes. There's no mistakenly having a penis in a vagina. Uncharacteristic or not = unhealthy marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unhealthy cheater.

ETA

Yes, I would say your marriage is definitely unhealthy if one of you is screwing someone else.


----------



## Regret214

He said your name in one line. It didn't look like he was pointing the entire post only on your direction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

Regret214 said:


> He said your name in one line. It didn't look like he was pointing the entire post only on your direction.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He quoted me in that post. Generally that's how it works. You hit "quote" when you're specifically addressing someone. Like I'm quoting and addressing you here.


----------



## Healer

Regret214 said:


> Does it hurt you THAT much? I was answering Wolf, yet you simply can't seem to help yourself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Does what hurt me that much? BTW - I was not calling you anything. You said unhealthy marriage, I countered with unhealthy cheater. Just wanted to clarify I was not attacking or name calling. Sorry if it came across that way.


----------



## Regret214

Well, Deejo used the quote feature incorrectly by putting it at the bottom and not at the top!



For those keeping score...THAT'S blame shifting!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> I think Deejo did a better job than I did at explaining it. The paradox, as I see it in this forum is that everyone says the marriage prior to the affair is 50/50 and that the affair itself is 100% on the wayward. I believe that. However, when a wayward SPEAKS about the marriage PRIOR to the affair, they are shouted down for blame shifting, not accepting responsibility, etc.
> 
> You can't have it both ways.
> 
> I Don't see that happening here. What I see is WS need take responsibility for the affair, your part of the bad marriage, be honest with your spouse about what your doing. To the BS if they are contributing to the bad marriage then that's another issue they also need to look at if reconciling. Only time i see them "shouted down" is when they aren't doing any of the above. It usually looks like ..... I shouldn't have cheated BUT then xyz. Their is no BUT.
> 
> If truly remorseful then it should be. I had and affair and that was wrong and I accept that responsibility.
> Then if they say I was unhappy in my marriage but they doesn't make what i did ok. Again not what is commonly seen here. It's more like I had an affair but I was unhappy in my marriage. It's when those types or justifiers are used that I see the "shouted down " as you call it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

Healer said:


> Does what hurt me that much? BTW - I was not calling you anything. You said unhealthy marriage, I countered with unhealthy cheater. Just wanted to clarify I was not attacking or name calling. Sorry if it came across that way.


I deleted my post after your edit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

nickgtg said:


> Really? I thought it was one of the worst posts I've ever read.


Nope. There are worse. Trust me ... or not.


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> Unhealthy? Yes. There's no mistakenly having a penis in a vagina. Uncharacteristic or not = unhealthy marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very well thank you for answering

And I mean ZERO disrespect in my next statement so please take none

But you and I have very different core beliefs than and will have to just agree
To disagree
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

Wolf1974 said:


> Regret214 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Deejo did a better job than I did at explaining it. The paradox, as I see it in this forum is that everyone says the marriage prior to the affair is 50/50 and that the affair itself is 100% on the wayward. I believe that. However, when a wayward SPEAKS about the marriage PRIOR to the affair, they are shouted down for blame shifting, not accepting responsibility, etc.
> 
> You can't have it both ways.
> 
> I Don't see that happening here. What I see is WS need take responsibility for the affair, your part of the bad marriage, be honest with your spouse about what your doing. To the BS if they are contributing to the bad marriage then that's another issue they also need to look at if reconciling. Only time i see them "shouted down" is when they aren't doing any of the above. It usually looks like ..... I shouldn't have cheated BUT then xyz. Their is no BUT.
> 
> If truly remorseful then it should be. I had and affair and that was wrong and I accept that responsibility.
> Then if they say I was unhappy in my marriage but they doesn't make what i did ok. Again not what is commonly seen here. It's more like I had an affair but I was unhappy in my marriage. It's when those types or justifiers are used that I see the "shouted down " as you call it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Then the question begs to be answered: Why do so many call EI out? She's proven time and time again that what she did was wrong. She accepted responsibility, yet when she brings up issues that she and B1 had, she is then shouted down.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## Wolf1974

Thundarr said:


> I agree with that completely. The thing is, merely saying that BSs should look back and evaluate seems offensive to some. I'm no WS or WS sympathizer yet my last few comments have gotten misquoted deliberately and taken completely out of context and then argued with a straw man (not by you Wolf). I think you'll find almost everyone including waywards and OP agree with the part of your comment that I quoted.


Thanks. I don't think the OP agrees at all though in others opinions 

And no matter HOW a relationship ends you are a fool if you don't look back and learn from it. Even though it's inconceivable to many here that my x admitted the affair was her fault and that I was a great husband and we had a good marriage I would have been a fool not to learn from the whole thing. And I did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

Just so no one thinks I ducked out, I've got dinner to make for the kids since Dig is on patrol tonight. 

Play nice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Thundarr said:


> Of course one gets to say that. It's separate issues. Issue #1 is the infidelity and that's a bad choice 100% on the WS. Issue #2 is the state of everything that lead to the WS cheating.
> 
> Okay I get that the WS's perspective will _*usually*_ be skewed in some way to save face or push some blame. But the only way to avoid repeating mistakes is to analyze what lead to the mistakes. Both the WS and the BS need to do this.


Thundarr, I'm quoting your post, but I'm speaking to anyone reading..... not you, specifically. I just wanted to clarify that. 

I agree with everything you've said here, even the *usually* part. *Usually* is* not always*. On TAM, there doesn't seem to be room for exceptions. Soul Potato is one of the most thoughtful, respectful, posters who I have ever encountered on TAM. She tried over, and over, to simply post a clear picture of her relationship before, during, and after her 3 EA's that occurred while she was still in a relationship with her former partner. A relationship that eventually ended after a fairly lengthy attempt at reconciliation that, I believe, included IC for each of them, as well as MC. SP was desperately trying the share the facts, the total picture of her relationship. SP has always held herself 100% accountable for her EA's, as well as many other, including FOO, issues. She has spent a tremendous amount of time, going into great details about the extensive amount of time and effort she has put into working on making herself a better individual, as well as a better partner. For all of that she was praised by TAM. 

The moment SP mentioned the challenges that she encountered, during her pre-A relationship with her partner, and her partners unwillingness to discuss, or even acknowledge, those issues, the majority of the posters on this thread quickly turned on her and started with the usual and customary TAM diatribe that begins with "You're blame shifting, you're rewriting history, blah, blah, blah........" 

WS's simply cannot share their story, on TAM, without being accused of blame-shifting, or history rewriting, unless they surrender their need to have their pre-A side of the story heard, as well. The WS's side of the story, whatever it may be, never justifies their decision to cheat. In some instances, it may go a long way towards explaining how they came to be in a position where they would allow themselves to make that decision. 

Yes, cheating is a character flaw. It's been argued on TAM whether or not everyone is capable of cheating given a certain set of circumstances. Since some people live and die, never having been unfaithful, that will never be proven to be so. It is possible, even highly likely, that some people would never cheat under any circumstances, no matter how difficult they may be.

Every human being has character flaws. Every human being has breaking points at which those flaws might possibly emerge. Some people may never be tested in such a way as to reach their breaking point. Cheating definitely represents a very serious character flaw, a weakness. I cheated and I will not deny that I was, and am, a very flawed individual. I had reached my breaking point. I had become very weak. Prior to that time, I had been relied on, to be strong for myself, and others, my entire life. And, I was, until I could not bear it any longer. 

When choosing to R, my husband chose to look at the sum total of my choices, and contributions to his life, and the lives of our children, extended family, friends, and others. He also chose to look at himself, and at the ways in which his flaws and weaknesses contributed to me reaching that breaking point. He realizes that he owns _some_ responsibility for pushing me towards the edge. He and I, both, know that only I am responsible for the choices I made, once I went over the edge. 

Let people share their stories. Don't assume that the way it happened in your marriage is the way it happened in someone else's. We aren't all here, on TAM, for the purpose of reconciling our marriages. Some marriages cannot and should not be saved. Every individual needs to be healed and reconciled, within themselves. Choosing to look at the whole picture, the picture of how we reached the place we are in our lives, right now, is the best possible chance any of us have to find healing and happiness in our lives.


----------



## Healer

Regret214 said:


> Well, Deejo used the quote feature incorrectly by putting it at the bottom and not at the top!
> 
> 
> 
> For those keeping score...THAT'S blame shifting!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


K, that was funny.


----------



## Healer

Regret214 said:


> I deleted my post after your edit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All good, peace.

Peace to all y'all. So much **** in this world. Just be good to each other. It's such an emotional, raw subject. And so very personal.

We're not going to change each other's minds, and both sides know what the other is saying. I'm not perfect, but I was a good husband...I loved my wife and respected and honoured her, and told her I loved her every day, and told her she was beautiful and amazing all the time. I tried really hard, and I lost. My heart was ripped from my chest. Still can't believe it's real sometimes. And now I'm so damaged in terms of trust and emotional availability. It's sad and scary to think I can't feel anymore - not that kind of love. 

Anyway, sorry, </rant>.

Have a great night all.


----------



## Wolf1974

EI said:


> Thundarr, I'm quoting your post, but I'm speaking to anyone reading..... not you, specifically. I just wanted to clarify that.
> 
> I agree with everything you've said here, even the *usually* part. *Usually* is* not always*. On TAM, there doesn't seem to be room for exceptions. Soul Potato is one of the most thoughtful, respectful, posters who I have ever encountered on TAM. She tried over, and over, to simply post a clear picture of her relationship before, during, and after her 3 EA's that occurred while she was still in a relationship with her former partner. A relationship that eventually ended after a fairly lengthy attempt at reconciliation that, I believe, included IC for each of them, as well as MC. SP was desperately trying the share the facts, the total picture of her relationship. SP has always held herself 100% accountable for her EA's, as well as many other, including FOO, issues. She has spent a tremendous amount of time, going into great details about the extensive amount of time and effort she has put into working on making herself a better individual, as well as a better partner. For all of that she was praised by TAM.
> 
> The moment SP mentioned the challenges that she encountered, during her pre-A relationship with her partner, and her partners unwillingness to discuss, or even acknowledge, those issues, the majority of the posters on this thread quickly turned on her and started with the usual and customary TAM diatribe that begins with "You're blame shifting, you're rewriting history, blah, blah, blah........"
> 
> WS's simply cannot share their story, on TAM, without being accused of blame-shifting, or history rewriting, unless they surrender their need to have their pre-A side of the story heard, as well. The WS's side of the story, whatever it may be, never justifies their decision to cheat. In some instances, it may go a long way towards explaining how they came to be in a position where they would allow themselves to make that decision.
> 
> Yes, cheating is a character flaw. It's been argued on TAM whether or not everyone is capable of cheating given a certain set of circumstances. Since some people live and die, never having been unfaithful, that will never be proven to be so. It is possible, even highly likely, that some people would never cheat under any circumstances, no matter how difficult they may be.
> 
> Every human being has character flaws. Every human being has breaking points at which those flaws might possibly emerge. Some people may never be tested in such a way as to reach their breaking point. Cheating definitely represents a very serious character flaw, a weakness. I cheated and I will not deny that I was, and am, a very flawed individual. I had reached my breaking point. I had become very weak. Prior to that time, I had been relied on, to be strong for myself, and others, my entire life. And, I was, until I could not bear it any longer.
> 
> When choosing to R, my husband chose to look at the sum total of my choices, and contributions to his life, and the lives of our children, extended family, friends, and others. He also chose to look at himself, and at the ways in which his flaws and weaknesses contributed to me reaching that breaking point. He realizes that he owns _some_ responsibility for pushing me towards the edge. He and I, both, know that only I am responsible for the choices I made, once I went over the edge.
> 
> Let people share their stories. *Don't assume that the way it happened in your marriage is the way it happened in someone else's.* We aren't all here, on TAM, for the purpose of reconciling our marriages. Some marriages cannot and should not be saved. Every individual needs to be healed and reconciled, within themselves. Choosing to look at the whole picture, the picture of how we reached the place we are in our lives, right now, is the best possible chance any of us have to find healing and happiness in our lives.


I agree with you. Seems we will never agree across the aisle though. As a BS I have gotten the whole it must be your fault she cheated bull. As you stated no one lived what I lived so they don't know. It's seems what many want is to be heard and possibly understood. but this probably isn't going to happen for BS and WS alike


----------



## EI

Wolf1974 said:


> * It's seems what many want is to be heard and possibly understood. *


In one simple 12 word sentence, you have just made the single most profound statement that I have ever read on TAM. 

I have spent over two years, and have written over 2,000 posts, trying to make that exact point. Thank you, Wolf.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Healer said:


> All good, peace.
> 
> Peace to all y'all. So much **** in this world. Just be good to each other. It's such an emotional, raw subject. And so very personal.
> 
> We're not going to change each other's minds, and both sides know what the other is saying. I'm not perfect, but I was a good husband...I loved my wife and respected and honoured her, and told her I loved her every day, and told her she was beautiful and amazing all the time. I tried really hard, and I lost. My heart was ripped from my chest. Still can't believe it's real sometimes. And now I'm so damaged in terms of trust and emotional availability. It's sad and scary to think I can't feel anymore - not that kind of love.
> 
> Anyway, sorry, </rant>.
> 
> Have a great night all.


Want you to know I have tremendous respect and compassion for what you just posted.

I don't have to reach very deep to find, and remember those same emotions.


----------



## Faeleaf

I will try harder to listen. You deserve to be heard.


----------



## jim123

Healer said:


> All good, peace.
> 
> Peace to all y'all. So much **** in this world. Just be good to each other. It's such an emotional, raw subject. And so very personal.
> 
> We're not going to change each other's minds, and both sides know what the other is saying. I'm not perfect, but I was a good husband...I loved my wife and respected and honoured her, and told her I loved her every day, and told her she was beautiful and amazing all the time. I tried really hard, and I lost. My heart was ripped from my chest. Still can't believe it's real sometimes. And now I'm so damaged in terms of trust and emotional availability. It's sad and scary to think I can't feel anymore - not that kind of love.
> 
> Anyway, sorry, </rant>.
> 
> Have a great night all.


No rant, it is how you feel and why you are here. In all our own way we are trying to help each other.

Those WS who post realize that they are the ones who ripped out someone's heart. Not just anyone's heart but the one they loved the most. Unless you are a cold person that is hard to live with.

I hope you learn to reach out as the people you now attack are the same people who can help you the most.

You are a far better man than me because I would have put her in jail for what she did. 

Get better my friend. Do not let her beat you. Do not let the A beat you. Do it for your kids. Do it for yourself.


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> All good, peace.
> 
> Peace to all y'all. So much **** in this world. Just be good to each other. It's such an emotional, raw subject. And so very personal.
> 
> We're not going to change each other's minds, and both sides know what the other is saying. I'm not perfect, but I was a good husband...I loved my wife and respected and honoured her, and told her I loved her every day, and told her she was beautiful and amazing all the time. I tried really hard, and I lost. My heart was ripped from my chest. Still can't believe it's real sometimes. And now I'm so damaged in terms of trust and emotional availability. It's sad and scary to think I can't feel anymore - not that kind of love.
> 
> Anyway, sorry, </rant>.
> 
> Have a great night all.


This is your best post, ever. I fully understand your feelings of anger and disillusionment, BTDT. I hope you will do well.


----------



## Rookie4

Faeleaf said:


> I will try harder to listen. You deserve to be heard.


That is the point of this thread. EVERYONE deserves to be heard. And to be treated fairly and courteously.


----------



## Regret214

Healer said:


> All good, peace.
> 
> Peace to all y'all. So much **** in this world. Just be good to each other. It's such an emotional, raw subject. And so very personal.
> 
> We're not going to change each other's minds, and both sides know what the other is saying. I'm not perfect, but I was a good husband...I loved my wife and respected and honoured her, and told her I loved her every day, and told her she was beautiful and amazing all the time. I tried really hard, and I lost. My heart was ripped from my chest. Still can't believe it's real sometimes. And now I'm so damaged in terms of trust and emotional availability. It's sad and scary to think I can't feel anymore - not that kind of love.
> 
> Anyway, sorry, </rant>.
> 
> Have a great night all.


I'm sorry for the pain you feel, Healer. It might not mean much coming from me, but I can tell you that when Dig is hurting it honestly kills me to know that it is all my fault and that his pain is due to my sheer idiocy.

I'm so sorry.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> There are positive ways to get better with your insecurities; there are a lot of resources to help you with those positive actions if you choose to utilize them. . Talking with other men about sex will eventfully make you pay a big price for such cheap trills. I want to encourage you again to seek out the women on this TAM website that knows what talking to other men about sex will do to you in the future.
> 
> *
> By Wayword*
> Please elaborate on those resources, if possible.



You can get help right here at TAM. For example you can contact *Mrs. John Adams who is a member of TAM and I am sure she has battled insecurities.* She is a WS that now has a very good marriage and 30 years or R behind her. I consider Mr. and Mrs. JA as one of the great success stories her at TAM. You can look for women or women groups’ right in your community that meets to help each othe. *Almost every community has women groups that meet to give FREE support and guidance in issues such as insecurities.* Many places of faith such as temples, synagogues, and churches have woman groups that meet often for FREE! If you get a few groups that do not help you then do not give up but keep going to groups until you find one that helps. Same of the criteria that I think is useful is to find a group or woman that has many years of success with the issue that you are having. For me it is kind of like going to a surgeon; it seems that I would have a better chance of getting the right help with a surgeon that has many years of success behind him/her rather than a person that is in their first year or two.


In addition, *with the Internet there are many places of expertise that you can utilize.* One such place is the famous Mayo Clinic. Here below is a link to their FREE help for women 
Self-esteem: Take steps to feel better about yourself - Mayo Clinic


There are activities that can do that and will give you more since of worth and self respect. *You can volunteer to help at different places, take some college courses in subjects that you are interested in, physical improvement activities that build up the body, sports, hobbies, etc.*

These methods above will not give you the sexual excitement or temporary good feelings that you have by talking sex with the men on the internet, but *they all build you up whereas the fantasy of talking sex on the internet will eventually bring you down.*


*I would encourage you to use your self will and mind to overrule your feelings and temporary emotional spikes and change your activities immediately.*


I realize that you want your husband to fulfill your emotions and according to you he is not doing that. I hope that he will change but *you cannot depend on someone else to make you feel desirable, smart, and creative*. Your self image of yourself has a lot to do with you making that happen. Hopefully your husband will do better in the future but you most certainly do not want to seek out other men to move your deepest emotions. You are smart enough to know where that will lead you.


You now have a choice. That choice is to change your behavior from seeking out other men to talk sex with you and get a temporary emotional splike or to use you self will and choices to take up activities that will benefit you. One choice will bring you down in the end and probably ruin your marriage and possibly losing 50% custody of your child and the other will build you up. *You are the one that is in control of your choices and you are the one that will suffer or benefit because of your choices*.


----------



## cpacan

Deejo said:


> So, you don't believe that the reason that the marriage is in a bad state in the first place, prior to infidelity could be because the BS blame shifts, breaks vows, cheats, lies and deceives?
> 
> So it's ok if I destroy my marriage and don't take accountability as long as I'm not f*cking someone else?
> 
> I'm not going to try and change the minds of folks like you Healer, but I don't agree with your score-keeping at all.
> 
> *It isn't ok to cheat, nor is it ok to sh!t all over your marriage and expect your partner to honor their vows.*
> 
> I don't advocate infidelity, and you can keep throwing up the 'they made the choice to cheat' all you like. You aren't incorrect. But if you truly believe that the state of the marriage has or should have no bearing on the choices or behavior that your spouse makes as a result, that isn't just blame shifting, it's blame dumping.
> 
> I'd further specify that the only circumstance someone really DOES need to evaluate their own behavior or contribution to the state of the marriage in the case of infidelity, is if if they plan on reconciling.
> 
> Affairs rarely happen in vacuum.
> 
> Reconciliation can't possibly happen in a vacuum.
> 
> You need to know what wasn't working, and make the appropriate changes that you can, and are willing to make on the personal front, and as it relates to interacting with your spouse if you want the relationship to heal. That goes for both the wayward and the betrayed.


I realize this post of yours had it's likes - I would like to give it a dislike. You seem to believe or imply that cheating only occurs when the betrayed partner has sh!t all over the marriage - well we obviously don't have the same life experiences then. I have seen pretty normal relationships blown to pieces by infidelity. I've also seen some troublesome marriages destroyed, but none of them came even close to "the betrayed sh!t all lover the marriage", though I admit the phrase might be open to interpretation.

In your world, and Rookies too, is there any room for a BS to be somewhere in between a$$ holes and saints on a "behaviormeter"? And, in your opinion, does one have to be a saint in order to deserve loyalty in a relationship?


----------



## cpacan

Healer said:


> All good, peace.
> 
> Peace to all y'all. So much **** in this world. Just be good to each other. It's such an emotional, raw subject. And so very personal.
> 
> We're not going to change each other's minds, and both sides know what the other is saying. I'm not perfect, but I was a good husband...I loved my wife and respected and honoured her, and told her I loved her every day, and told her she was beautiful and amazing all the time. I tried really hard, and I lost. My heart was ripped from my chest. Still can't believe it's real sometimes. And now I'm so damaged in terms of trust and emotional availability. It's sad and scary to think I can't feel anymore - not that kind of love.
> 
> Anyway, sorry, </rant>.
> 
> Have a great night all.


I feel with you Healer, and my heart goes to you.
I agree with you, that it's impossible to convert one or the other. The need for justification and projection is too strong, which is only human.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



cpacan said:


> I realize this post of yours had it's likes - I would like to give it a dislike. You seem to believe or imply that cheating only occurs when the betrayed partner has sh!t all over the marriage - well we obviously don't have the same life experiences then. I have seen pretty normal relationships blown to pieces by infidelity. I've also seen some troublesome marriages destroyed, but none of them came even close to "the betrayed sh!t all lover the marriage", though I admit the phrase might be open to interpretation.
> 
> In your world, and Rookies too, is there any room for a BS to be somewhere in between a$$ holes and saints on a "behaviormeter"? And, in your opinion, does one have to be a saint in order to deserve loyalty in a relationship?


Incorrect. I was simply trying to frame the same kind of absolutist thinking that chooses to focus the entirety of marital collapse and having your heart torn out by infidelity. 

I could have written Healers follow up, poignant post myself, six years ago. I was a good, loving husband and father as well.

Infidelity is often a symptom of something gone horribly wrong in the marriage. Doesnt much matter who is at fault. To utterly ignore that fact, and consistently shout a wayward down with, "Blame shifting!" doesn't serve either side.

In the case of a wayward that has been reconciled for YEARS, and both they and their spouse have evaluated how their marriage got there in the first place, I say it's flat out disrespectful. 

The problem here is time. We have the newly betrayed and heartbroken posting alongside those for whom infidelity is long in the rear view mirror. 

Divorce isn't easy and doesn't feel good.

Nobody here has the definitive answer. Time and circumstances can and do change everything. 

In sum, the description in my post was hyperbole.


----------



## Rookie4

cpacan said:


> I realize this post of yours had it's likes - I would like to give it a dislike. You seem to believe or imply that cheating only occurs when the betrayed partner has sh!t all over the marriage - well we obviously don't have the same life experiences then. I have seen pretty normal relationships blown to pieces by infidelity. I've also seen some troublesome marriages destroyed, but none of them came even close to "the betrayed sh!t all lover the marriage", though I admit the phrase might be open to interpretation.
> 
> In your world, and Rookies too, is there any room for a BS to be somewhere in between a$$ holes and saints on a "behaviormeter"? And, in your opinion, does one have to be a saint in order to deserve loyalty in a relationship?


Well, as a former BS, I can say that, at least, I'm not a saint, although I CAN be an a$$hole, usually I'm somewhere in between. But, to be fair, not ALL WS's are tramps or evil, either . It's a 2 way street, because there are two in the marriage. Which is the point. It seems that the playing field has tilted towards BS support and WS abuse. All I'm asking is for fair play for all posters, do you object to that?


----------



## Wolf1974

Deejo said:


> Incorrect. I was simply trying to frame the same kind of absolutist thinking that chooses to focus the entirety of marital collapse and having your heart torn out by infidelity.
> 
> I could have written Healers follow up, poignant post myself, six years ago. I was a good, loving husband and father as well.
> 
> Infidelity is *often* a symptom of something gone horribly wrong in the marriage. Doesnt much matter who is at fault. To utterly ignore that fact, and consistently shout a wayward down with, "Blame shifting!" doesn't serve either side.
> 
> In the case of a wayward that has been reconciled for YEARS, and both they and their spouse have evaluated how their marriage got there in the first place, I say it's flat out disrespectful.
> 
> The problem here is time. We have the newly betrayed and heartbroken posting alongside those for whom infidelity is long in the rear view mirror.
> 
> Divorce isn't easy and doesn't feel good.
> 
> Nobody here has the definitive answer. Time and circumstances can and do change everything.
> 
> In sum, the description in my post was hyperbole.



I have no problem with the word often. It's the always word that was thrown out. That always the BS contributed to the demise of the marriage which somehow led the the gateway of the affair. 

This has NEVER been my experience or the experience I have seen first hand where the affair was brought on by the selfish choice of one in the marriage and then that ONE act destroyed the marriage which is what happened in my case. sounds like healer and believe ms dee chimed in on that as well being the WS. I think it's easier for many WS to believe that the ups and downs of a marriage somehow justify a bad choice. Least that's what I gathered from most of this.

For my part I agree with you that distance helps. I am 4 years out from my x's affair. Most of this thread is either head scracthing how some people could be raised so differently with their moral beliefs to downright comical with the responses. Had I read this a month out I'm sure I would have lost my mind and got banned lol.

I have moved on but I am no where near the same man I was 4 years ago. That one experience was a major defining characteristic of my adulthood and keep in mind I work in a job where I see selfishness every single day, but when it hits your own life and affects your kids it tears your soul.

I don't know how much of the thread you have read here Deejo, maybe you have read all of it, but I think you may have the wrong impression of what myself and many of the others who have been betrayed are posting about. 

I need no self validation from unknowns typing on a forum. But I know I once came to tam very very broken. Wondering how in one minute I'm feeling like I am the luckiest guy on earth with all I had and then next minute it's all gone in an instant. Mostly what I felt was alone and coming here helped me see I wasn't. That others went through exactly what I did. That helped me personally a lot just to know I wasn't alone. This was. to something I could talk about with my friends how vulnerable I felt so I searched for answers here. It's for that one reason I changed over from reader to poster 6 months ago. 

For the Bs my hope is they see they aren't alone. For the WS I hope they stop fooling themselves if they are thinking they aren't hurting anyone. Cause they are. And I suspect many could care less but I'm sure some really do need to see , through examples, that the aftermath of affairs really do leave people damaged.

Anyway just wanted to say that to you since like I said I don't know how long you have been watching this thread. It's fallen on deaf ears to others.


----------



## cpacan

Rookie4 said:


> Well, as a former BS, I can say that, at least, I'm not a saint, although I CAN be an a$$hole, usually I'm somewhere in between. But, to be fair, not ALL WS's are tramps or evil, either . It's a 2 way street, because there are two in the marriage. Which is the point. It seems that the playing field has tilted towards BS support and WS abuse. All I'm asking is for fair play for all posters, do you object to that?


If you consult my entire posthistory, you'll find that I don't object to that. I also accept that every human being has his flaws (or everyone is perfect the way they are) - I don't consider myself without faults either.

The only thing is, that I believe very strongly in personal responsibility for ones actions, not just infidelity related. I understand the need to justify and assign blame to someone else when you screw up, it's natural and it's understandable, but it doesn't make it right.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Healer said:


> And you're stuck on a long winded way of saying the actions of the BS are what caused the WS to cheat.
> 
> WS and BS simply don't think the same way. You found justification for cheating in your wife's behavior - whatever it was. Now, from guilt, you look at yourself and say "well, because of my actions, my wife cheated on me".
> 
> I have no problem with the assertion that BS can learn and better themselves for the next relationship. Life is all about learning and growing. That's fine and dandy. That's not what I'm arguing.


No, you're misunderstanding. They're two different women. The same way I was neglected by the first, leaving me to feel alone and frustrated by inability to get her to respond to what I needed - were exactly the same things I did to another woman. I was completely unaware of the many ways she tried to come across long before she cheated. I wasn't aware that I'd become an absentee partner.

My point is that if your partner feels lonely in the relationship, you already failed. Whether you get left by a strong person or cheated on by a weak one, that failure to nurture the other person still belongs to you. It isn't absolved by someone else's wrong doing.

Cheating wasn't the death of the relationship. By the time an otherwise healthy person cheats... something else already killed it.


----------



## vellocet

Regret214 said:


> Unhealthy? Yes. There's no mistakenly having a penis in a vagina. Uncharacteristic or not = unhealthy marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did Dig cheat due to your unhealthy marriage?


----------



## vellocet

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Explaining is not excusing.


I can agree with this, but it depends on the way its being explained. Some explanations do not point fingers at all, while "explanations" from most WS on TAM do.

Examples of WS who "explained" it in such a way that didn't blame their BS are MJA, tonedef, Maricha. Might be a couple others, but just don't come to mind right now.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Healer said:


> All good, peace.
> 
> Peace to all y'all. So much **** in this world. Just be good to each other. It's such an emotional, raw subject. And so very personal.
> 
> We're not going to change each other's minds, and both sides know what the other is saying. I'm not perfect, but I was a good husband...I loved my wife and respected and honoured her, and told her I loved her every day, and told her she was beautiful and amazing all the time. I tried really hard, and I lost. My heart was ripped from my chest. Still can't believe it's real sometimes. And now I'm so damaged in terms of trust and emotional availability. It's sad and scary to think I can't feel anymore - not that kind of love.
> 
> Anyway, sorry, </rant>.
> 
> Have a great night all.


Just wanted you to know that I don't think every case is the same. I've tried to be clear that I'm referring to a specific sort, not the cake-eating sort that I'm guessing you experienced if all you claim to have done for the relationship is true.

Naturally, I speak the for the sort of situations I experienced. While I own the weakness of having chosen to cheat rather than end the relationship, the neglect by and resentment of failed attempts to reach my ex caused the actual death of the relationship. Had I been stronger, less fearful of life after divorce, I most certainly would have just left. My personal failure in a dead relationship doesn't absolve her of her role in killing it.

I own the cheating, but there was way more than cheating to the end of my marriage. You speak of having your heart ripped out of your chest. When I relate my story, I speak of the same... but while yours came in a single gutting of your heart... mine came one small cut at a time - the build-up a years of trying and getting no where, until there was no heart left - only apathy. When I cheated, I didn't even care. At the time, I might even have convinced myself it was justice.

The best thing therapy did for me was help break me of my fear of the unmarried future where I don't see my kids every night, where I don't live in that house, and where I had to explain divorce to friends and family. My choice to cheat was undoubtedly wrong, but my heart was no less broken. TBH, I'd rather she cheated and gutted me in one fell swoop than put me through the 7 years of wondering what was wrong with me; feeling inadequate, unacknowledged, neglected and alone -even in the same bed.


----------



## Rookie4

cpacan said:


> If you consult my entire posthistory, you'll find that I don't object to that. I also accept that every human being has his flaws (or everyone is perfect the way they are) - I don't consider myself without faults either.
> 
> The only thing is, that I believe very strongly in personal responsibility for ones actions, not just infidelity related. I understand the need to justify and assign blame to someone else when you screw up, it's natural and it's understandable, but it doesn't make it right.


I agree with this.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> No, you're misunderstanding. They're two different women. The same way I was neglected by the first, leaving me to feel alone and frustrated by inability to get her to respond to what I needed - were exactly the same things I did to another woman. I was completely unaware of the many ways she tried to come across long before she cheated. I wasn't aware that I'd become an absentee partner.
> 
> My point is that if your partner feels lonely in the relationship, you already failed. Whether you get left by a strong person or cheated on by a weak one, that failure to nurture the other person still belongs to you. It isn't absolved by someone else's wrong doing.
> 
> Cheating wasn't the death of the relationship. By the time an otherwise healthy person cheats... something else already killed it.


This is my default position. And I don't want to derail, but this is why I focus on attraction over personal accountability.

Yes I want my partner to be honest, and accountable ... and leave rather than cheat. But I'd rather focus on building and preserving a relationship where she digs being with me and wouldn't choose to leave or stray. And that's about attraction, not integrity.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

vellocet said:


> I can agree with this, but it depends on the way its being explained. Some explanations do not point fingers at all, while "explanations" from most WS on TAM do.
> 
> Examples of WS who "explained" it in such a way that didn't blame their BS are MJA, tonedef, Maricha. Might be a couple others, but just don't come to mind right now.


It's a hard line to walk when virtually any complaint of the WS is received as "blameshifting". So when I speak about it, I refer to the state of the relationship. Cheating is just a sh*tty way to say "it's over".

It's incredibly passive aggressive - but my experience was of practically wanting to be caught. Of taking ever increasing risks of exposure. That way she catches me, leaves me, and I wouldn't have had to do it.

The catch was she didn't leave - and I had to deal with that personal weakness anyway.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Wolf1974 said:


> I have no problem with the word often. It's the always word that was thrown out. That always the BS contributed to the demise of the marriage which somehow led the the gateway of the affair.
> 
> This has NEVER been my experience or the experience I have seen first hand where the affair was brought on by the selfish choice of one in the marriage and then that ONE act destroyed the marriage which is what happened in my case. sounds like healer and believe ms dee chimed in on that as well being the WS. I think it's easier for many WS to believe that the ups and downs of a marriage somehow justify a bad choice. Least that's what I gathered from most of this.
> 
> For my part I agree with you that distance helps. I am 4 years out from my x's affair. Most of this thread is either head scracthing how some people could be raised so differently with their moral beliefs to downright comical with the responses. Had I read this a month out I'm sure I would have lost my mind and got banned lol.
> 
> I have moved on but I am no where near the same man I was 4 years ago. That one experience was a major defining characteristic of my adulthood and keep in mind I work in a job where I see selfishness every single day, but when it hits your own life and affects your kids it tears your soul.
> 
> I don't know how much of the thread you have read here Deejo, maybe you have read all of it, but I think you may have the wrong impression of what myself and many of the others who have been betrayed are posting about.
> 
> I need no self validation from unknowns typing on a forum. But I know I once came to tam very very broken. Wondering how in one minute I'm feeling like I am the luckiest guy on earth with all I had and then next minute it's all gone in an instant. Mostly what I felt was alone and coming here helped me see I wasn't. That others went through exactly what I did. That helped me personally a lot just to know I wasn't alone. This was. to something I could talk about with my friends how vulnerable I felt so I searched for answers here. It's for that one reason I changed over from reader to poster 6 months ago.
> 
> For the Bs my hope is they see they aren't alone. For the WS I hope they stop fooling themselves if they are thinking they aren't hurting anyone. Cause they are. And I suspect many could care less but I'm sure some really do need to see , through examples, that the aftermath of affairs really do leave people damaged.
> 
> Anyway just wanted to say that to you since like I said I don't know how long you have been watching this thread. It's fallen on deaf ears to others.


I'll confess Wolf, I've been in and out. I've seen some great posts from both sides.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Rookie4 said:


> I understand that. The point I'm trying to make is that there is no such thing as cheating in a good , well adjusted marriage, in which both partners are satisfied. There is ALWAYS a cause.


This is like saying, there's no sunshine at night.

The problem here is how many marriages fit your description of "well adjusted"? 

I would venture to say under 50% (based on statistics of divorce and fidelity). Frankly it's probably significantly lower and SOME just choose not to take the path of infidelity, but do damage to their marriage in other ways. Sexless marriages, problem with communication, not spending quality time together (even if there's sex and both are faithful)...all of those things don't match a "well adjusted marriage". But there are plenty of them out there.

What's the chances of finding 2 "well adjusted people" AND then those 2 people combining their individual "well adjusted"-ness  into a well adjusted marriage.


----------



## Rookie4

Dad&Hubby said:


> This is like saying, there's no sunshine at night.
> 
> The problem here is how many marriages fit your description of "well adjusted"?
> 
> I would venture to say under 50% (based on statistics of divorce and fidelity). Frankly it's probably significantly lower and SOME just choose not to take the path of infidelity, but do damage to their marriage in other ways. Sexless marriages, problem with communication, not spending quality time together (even if there's sex and both are faithful)...all of those things don't match a "well adjusted marriage". But there are plenty of them out there.
> 
> What's the chances of finding 2 "well adjusted people" AND then those 2 people combining their individual "well adjusted"-ness  into a well adjusted marriage.


Well, I consider myself well adjusted.....now. I probably wasn't when I was married, too busy making money and feeding my ego as super husband and Dad. I very much consider my SO to be well adjusted, in point of fact, she is probably the poster child for perfect Dames. (a little joke for her). So , in my situation the chances turned out to be 50- 50. My ex wife was not well adjusted, obviously, but is now. 
Funny thing is, we all have the power to BE well adjusted. In ourselves and in our marriages, if only we try to put as much work into them as we do our other activities. Like I said before, you have to take classes to own a firearm, or drive a car, but any dumb f**k can get married.


----------



## Jung_admirer

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Just wanted you to know that I don't think every case is the same. I've tried to be clear that I'm referring to a specific sort, not the cake-eating sort that I'm guessing you experienced if all you claim to have done for the relationship is true.
> 
> Naturally, I speak the for the sort of situations I experienced. While I own the weakness of having chosen to cheat rather than end the relationship, the neglect by and resentment of failed attempts to reach my ex caused the actual death of the relationship. Had I been stronger, less fearful of life after divorce, I most certainly would have just left. My personal failure in a dead relationship doesn't absolve her of her role in killing it.
> 
> I own the cheating, but there was way more than cheating to the end of my marriage. You speak of having your heart ripped out of your chest. When I relate my story, I speak of the same... but while yours came in a single gutting of your heart... mine came one small cut at a time - the build-up a years of trying and getting no where, until there was no heart left - only apathy. When I cheated, I didn't even care. At the time, I might even have convinced myself it was justice.
> 
> The best thing therapy did for me was help break me of my fear of the unmarried future where I don't see my kids every night, where I don't live in that house, and where I had to explain divorce to friends and family. My choice to cheat was undoubtedly wrong, but my heart was no less broken. TBH, I'd rather she cheated and gutted me in one fell swoop than put me through the 7 years of wondering what was wrong with me; feeling inadequate, unacknowledged, neglected and alone -even in the same bed.


Can you go back one more step. What was the source of your partner's emotional witholding? In other words, is the emotional witholding something she brought into the relationship (her's to fix), or was it something the developed over the course of the relationship (resentment to repair as a couple). 

In my case, my WS's emotional abuse shut me down completely. I stopped talking. I didn't recognize what was going on because my parents were even more abusive ... it felt like home, normal. Yet I was getting more depressed, more withdrawn. 

No one has been perfectly parented, so I think we are all wounded to a greater or lesser degree. It's our responsiiblity to deal with our family-of-origin issues. As a WS or BS, I think you need to dig deep and ask yourself, "How do I contribute to the very things I complain about in my partner?" (and perhaps deal with those first)


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Jung_admirer said:


> Can you go back one more step. What was the source of your partner's emotional witholding? In other words, is the emotional witholding something she brought into the relationship (her's to fix), or was it something the developed over the course of the relationship (resentment to repair as a couple).
> 
> In my case, my WS's emotional abuse shut me down completely. I stopped talking. I didn't recognize what was going on because my parents were even more abusive ... it felt like home, normal. Yet I was getting more depressed, more withdrawn.
> 
> No one has been perfectly parented, so I think we are all wounded to a greater or lesser degree. It's our responsiiblity to deal with our family-of-origin issues. As a WS or BS, I think you need to dig deep and ask yourself, "How do I contribute to the very things I complain about in my partner?" (and perhaps deal with those first)


I don't want to hijack the thread, its a long story, but when we married, we expected to be DINKs. Neither of us wanted kids and we were both pretty selfish. 6 years in, she changes her mind, and begins a campaign to convince me that lasted another couple years. I go along thinking she needs this to be happy - and not wanting to break-up over it or deny her something she really wants. ie her happiness is my happiness. We have our first, and she withdraws from all the activities we did together - activities on which we built the relationship. Everything becomes about my new daughter. I figure its a limited time thing... and that's what everyone else tells me. I focus my efforts on trying to convince her to be less overbearing of my daughter, and be willing step away and spend more time with me. I'm not happy, we have many conversations, but they usually amounted to no more than one date night. Soon thereafter we have my son.

She is consumed by being a mother. There's little else to her. She wants to be a SAHM. All of our activity is child related. Never wants to have sex. Has difficulty leaving the kids with a babysitter... "I don't get enough time with them!" While I'm trying to explain that she gets even less time with me.

Many other issues grew... but this was the seed. I didn't have a marriage, I had a mother. A woman literally obsessed with being a mom - her entire identity wrapped up in it and "selflessness". Any time out with me, was a "taking" from the children that made her feel guilty. Kinky sex we had prior was out the window, moms don't do that. Hell, her sex drive entirely vanished. Mine even suffered... her every conversation was kid related. Family activities, play dates, what they did today... what my son's poop was like. Drove me out of my mind.

I spent the next years trying to find the person I married again, trying to improve myself such that she'd value me again, doubting myself in bed because she never wanted to have sex. Fixing a billion things she made up to justify her missing sex drive. Trying to discuss such things without sounding like a complainer or selfish. Ultimately, I felt like I was unnecessary to her. In getting kids, she got what she wanted from me... and nothing else was needed.

Eventually (about 7 years after the bad stuff began) I stopped trying. I started doing the things I enjoyed, even if I had to do them alone, and just figured this is just how marriages go. It was on one of those days doing my own thing I met someone who seemed to want me. Ironically, my wife had been invited and declined... as usual.


----------



## Faeleaf

Dad&Hubby said:


> This is like saying, there's no sunshine at night.
> 
> The problem here is how many marriages fit your description of "well adjusted"?
> 
> I would venture to say under 50% (based on statistics of divorce and fidelity). Frankly it's probably significantly lower and SOME just choose not to take the path of infidelity, but do damage to their marriage in other ways. Sexless marriages, problem with communication, not spending quality time together (even if there's sex and both are faithful)...all of those things don't match a "well adjusted marriage". But there are plenty of them out there.
> 
> What's the chances of finding 2 "well adjusted people" AND then those 2 people combining their individual "well adjusted"-ness  into a well adjusted marriage.


Just chiming in to say that I completely agree with you on the rarity of the "well-adjusted marriage." It took me a very long time to get to a totally healthy place myself, and my second stab at marriage, finding a partner this time who constantly surprises me with how great he is, and how well *we* work together.

Now that I'm *in* a "well-adjusted" marriage, it seems everywhere I look, all I see are the "other" kinds - the ones limping along, moaning about how "hard" marriage is. These are people I know and love, in my life (not TAMers). The bickering, the selfishness, the blistering criticism, the lack of empathy, the long and dearly-held resentments. And everyone patting themselves on the back for enduring in spite of these "perfectly normal" difficulties. It makes me want to cry. 

The thing is, even though I was doing the best I knew how, I won't give myself a pass for the dysfunction of my first marriage. I was the BS there...and yes, the infidelity hurt a lot. No, I didn't deserve it, not one bit. 

But I make a choice not to focus on the infidelity as the cause of my misery. It's more empowering, for me, to take the areal view, to realize what I could have done better...not to prevent the infidelity, because I don't hold myself responsible for that...but what I could have done better_ in my marriage._

I channeled my pain into a drive to learn and work on myself. Now I have gained a lot of new strategies and relationship skills, an increased understanding and empathy, and I make a much better spouse. I'm happy my current husband gets the benefit of that...I'm happy we _both_ do. 

I hate it when this thread dissolves into petty bickering over what probably boils down to semantics or a very minor difference in perspectives. I don't post here often but I read it every day. I want to hear people's stories, to really absorb and learn from their experiences. The BS and the WS alike. We only see such a small percentage of the "whole story," the real stories going on in everyone's lives every day. Unless we share with each other, we miss so much. 

PS. I love your signature.


----------



## Mr. Dee

sidney2718 said:


> Was your affair partner exciting?


No, actually. At first it was exciting to be IN an affair, but the OW was nothing special. I've heard the phrase "affair down" and now I can say for sure that I did in every way. In fact she was a horrible person even before she went insane on us after dday. I was just too busy and too scared to see that at the time of the affair.

Which reminds me, the person here who said Zanne gets off on the attention when people spend effort trying to get her to see reality, that person is right. My xAP did that same thing, writing on forums about wanting to do the right thing, but bullsh!t on that, she never did. She just loved to keep people arguing with her.


----------



## sidney2718

Healer said:


> Poor coping mechanisms may be part of the problem - but simplifying it down to that is quite the cop out. But let's not forget selfishness, cruelty, entitlement, boredom, poor character, lack of boundaries...not all people who cheat are "coping" with something. Many just are bored, horny, want some strange, want the thrill of something new. Not all people who cheat are somehow afflicted.


I don't think anybody ever said "all" (the key word in the last sentence above.) 

For a great summary of things I refer you to Deejo's post upthread.


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> Why can't they be judged by the affair alone.


Because it is never that simple. Husband and wife have been interacting over the entire time they've known each other. And there is no doubt that they've affected each other.



> You have two people working at or destroying a marriage. If
> Both people are unhappy and only one cheats that's on the cheater.


The cheating is on the cheater. Nobody has said otherwise.



> Otherwise everyone would just cheat when they are unhappy and of course that
> Doesn't happen. Also then how would you account for a happy marriage where one spouse gets drunk on a gno or bno and commits a one night affair with stranger. They were both happy and now got caught up in this moment of drunkness. The marriage isn't at fault. The decision making of one spouse is
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nope. Many many people have been out drinking and have not cheated. The cheating is on the cheater. If the marriage was not at fault this would not have happened. But there was a choice and the cheater made it.

But of course if you have the belief that the Devil can suddenly inhabit people and make otherwise perfectly content people do something evil, then nothing anybody will say will change your opinion.

But in that case the way to have a perfect marriage is to keep the Devil from the door, right?


----------



## Healer

Deejo said:


> Want you to know I have tremendous respect and compassion for what you just posted.
> 
> I don't have to reach very deep to find, and remember those same emotions.


Thanks man, appreciate that.


----------



## Healer

Regret214 said:


> I'm sorry for the pain you feel, Healer. It might not mean much coming from me, but I can tell you that when Dig is hurting it honestly kills me to know that it is all my fault and that his pain is due to my sheer idiocy.
> 
> I'm so sorry.


Thanks Regret.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Rookie4 said:


> Well, I consider myself well adjusted.....now. I probably wasn't when I was married, too busy making money and feeding my ego as super husband and Dad. I very much consider my SO to be well adjusted, in point of fact, she is probably the poster child for perfect Dames. (a little joke for her). So , in my situation the chances turned out to be 50- 50. My ex wife was not well adjusted, obviously, but is now.
> Funny thing is, we all have the power to BE well adjusted. In ourselves and in our marriages, if only we try to put as much work into them as we do our other activities. Like I said before, you have to take classes to own a firearm, or drive a car, but any dumb f**k can get married.


LOL my ex and myself weren't well adjusted when we were married, but I'd consider myself "reformed" :smthumbup:. My wife now is well adjusted, so that's 50-50 with 3 people.

A lot of it is experience. My divorce attorney said to me. "They should make it illegal for men to marry before the age of 30" because of how many problems he sees with immaturity in marriages.


----------



## sidney2718

RE: Deejo's post upthread


nickgtg said:


> Really? I thought it was one of the worst posts I've ever read.


Because of the way it was written or because of what it said?


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> Really? So under no circumstances can a spouse make an uncharacteristic mistake and have a one night stand? It has to be that the marriage is bad?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You've got me totally confused. Are you now saying that the blame for the ONS does not entirely lie with the cheater? "I'm sorry, but the ONS was just an uncharacteristic mistake. Pay it no attention."

No, I'm not trying to be snarky. Some of us here have simply been trying to say that affairs often have complex causes. We also say that that does not excuse the cheater. We additionally say that if the BS wants to understand why the WS cheated, the BS should look at the state of the marriage before the affair. That is NOT an excuse for the affair. It goes to understanding how it happened.

And we additionally say that if the BS is willing to attempt a reconciliation, that it is really important to discover what the marriage problems were. That's a major part of counselling.

I gather that others have the position that the affair is not only the full responsibility of the cheater (which nobody argues about) but that it stems from character flaws in the cheater that are almost impossible to eradicate. As a result, divorce is almost inevitable.

I see these as two different positions.


----------



## sidney2718

Regret214 said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then the question begs to be answered: Why do so many call EI out? She's proven time and time again that what she did was wrong. She accepted responsibility, yet when she brings up issues that she and B1 had, she is then shouted down.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> To be perhaps more blunt than is politic, I personally saw that as an attack on female cheaters and on females in general. Their opinions don't seem to matter in some quarters. That's a major part of what this thread is about.
> 
> If one goes back and rereads this thread from the start, one can see a fair amount (not universal, but a fair amount) of hostility toward female posters.
> 
> As a man, I can understand it. It is somewhat animalistic and in my case probably goes back to my gorilla ancestry. But I fight it all the time.
Click to expand...


----------



## sidney2718

Healer said:


> All good, peace.
> 
> Peace to all y'all. So much **** in this world. Just be good to each other. It's such an emotional, raw subject. And so very personal.
> 
> We're not going to change each other's minds, and both sides know what the other is saying. I'm not perfect, but I was a good husband...I loved my wife and respected and honoured her, and told her I loved her every day, and told her she was beautiful and amazing all the time. I tried really hard, and I lost. My heart was ripped from my chest. Still can't believe it's real sometimes. And now I'm so damaged in terms of trust and emotional availability. It's sad and scary to think I can't feel anymore - not that kind of love.
> 
> Anyway, sorry, </rant>.
> 
> Have a great night all.


Man, I respect you for having the guts to write that. Thanks. And I hope that you will once again be able to love deeply and well.


----------



## Faeleaf

Healer said:


> All good, peace.
> 
> Peace to all y'all. So much **** in this world. Just be good to each other. It's such an emotional, raw subject. And so very personal.
> 
> We're not going to change each other's minds, and both sides know what the other is saying. I'm not perfect, but I was a good husband...I loved my wife and respected and honoured her, and told her I loved her every day, and told her she was beautiful and amazing all the time. I tried really hard, and I lost. My heart was ripped from my chest. Still can't believe it's real sometimes. And now I'm so damaged in terms of trust and emotional availability. It's sad and scary to think I can't feel anymore - not that kind of love.
> 
> Anyway, sorry, </rant>.
> 
> Have a great night all.


I want you to know that this was the most influential thing I've read from you. It moved me, and definitely made me reconsider things you've said before in a new light. If we haven't been successful in "changing each other's minds" previously, it may just be because adversarial posts aren't very good at accomplishing that. 

But this does. It is kind, inclusive and heartfelt. Impossible to disregard, and a very powerful message.

I honestly think ALL of us hold very valuable "truths," hard-won from our own painful experiences and careful observations. My understanding of the world can only be enhanced by adding yours alongside it. Thank you for widening my perspective a little bit.


----------



## sidney2718

Dad&Hubby said:


> This is like saying, there's no sunshine at night.
> 
> The problem here is how many marriages fit your description of "well adjusted"?
> 
> I would venture to say under 50% (based on statistics of divorce and fidelity). Frankly it's probably significantly lower and SOME just choose not to take the path of infidelity, but do damage to their marriage in other ways. Sexless marriages, problem with communication, not spending quality time together (even if there's sex and both are faithful)...all of those things don't match a "well adjusted marriage". But there are plenty of them out there.
> 
> What's the chances of finding 2 "well adjusted people" AND then those 2 people combining their individual "well adjusted"-ness  into a well adjusted marriage.


In my opinion you are right. And I think it is a major problem in society. It needs to be addressed and I'm perfectly willing to give my views on it. But not here, that would be a thread jack.


----------



## sidney2718

Mr. Dee said:


> No, actually. At first it was exciting to be IN an affair, but the OW was nothing special. I've heard the phrase "affair down" and now I can say for sure that I did in every way. In fact she was a horrible person even before she went insane on us after dday. I was just too busy and too scared to see that at the time of the affair.


Thanks for the response. Your first line is very telling. Your marriage had lost its excitement. But that is very common, very common indeed. It is hard to be married with job and responsibilities with a spouse often in the same position and also be able to keep the magic going.

I never knew about this particular problem before I married. Nobody talked about it. So I too was unprepared for it. It is a serious serious problem. I have no "special fix" for it, but it is still very likely that you both contributed, not equally, but contributed to the atmosphere of the marriage.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> So, do you view yourself as a WS or a BS or both?


I was gonna ask you the same thing. I know you say you are a BS, but I just can't shake this feeling that you have been a WS too, or at the very least have cheated on somebody in your lifetime. Hmmmmm


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> Because it is never that simple. Husband and wife have been interacting over the entire time they've known each other. And there is no doubt that they've affected each other.
> 
> *I disagree. It can be that simple. I have seen a BNO go out of control and an x friend of mine have sex with another woman. He was totally in love with his wife and she with him. He claims he doesn't remember, because of the alcohol of course, going out to her car to have sex. But point was he still did it and needs to be held accountable for his choice, you and regret can say that well he was in an unhealthy marriage all you want but I knew the truth cause I saw this to down. Until this ONS happened they had a great marriage. But this one event ended it.
> *
> 
> The cheating is on the cheater. Nobody has said otherwise.
> 
> *far from accurate on this thread*
> 
> Nope. Many many people have been out drinking and have not cheated. The cheating is on the cheater. If the marriage was not at fault this would not have happened. But there was a choice and the *cheater made it.
> 
> Can keep spinning it around all you like. I have seen plenty of happy marriages go down because of the selfish choice of one. And by your analogy then we should conclude that since ALL cheaters are in bad Marriages then ALL bad marriages should have cheating inside of it. Course that doesn't happen either *
> 
> But of course if you have the belief that the Devil can suddenly inhabit people and make otherwise perfectly content people do something evil, then nothing anybody will say will change your opinion.
> *As nothing I have said even though I have seen the opposite will change yours*
> 
> But in that case the way to have a perfect marriage is to keep the Devil from the door, right?
> *
> Silly statement in whole. I never wanted an easy or perfect marriage. Would have settled for honest and committed one*


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> You've got me totally confused. Are you now saying that the blame for the ONS does not entirely lie with the cheater? "I'm sorry, but the ONS was just an uncharacteristic mistake. Pay it no attention."
> 
> No, I'm not trying to be snarky. Some of us here have simply been trying to say that affairs *often* have complex causes. We also say that that does not excuse the cheater. We additionally say that if the BS wants to understand why the WS cheated, the BS should look at the state of the marriage before the affair. That is NOT an excuse for the affair. It goes to understanding how it happened.
> 
> And we additionally say that if the BS is willing to attempt a reconciliation, that it is really important to discover what the marriage problems were. That's a major part of counselling.
> 
> I gather that others have the position that the affair is not only the full responsibility of the cheater (which nobody argues about) but that it stems from character flaws in the cheater that are almost impossible to eradicate. As a result, divorce is almost inevitable.
> 
> I see these as two different positions.


That word again often which is true but that's not always. No doubt that marriages can have a very simple to very complex problems. 

But when the problem comes from the affair that is pretty simplistic by nature. I loved my spouse, he/she cheated, now I can't ever trust them again so I have to move on. Seem clear enough to me


----------



## Healer

Faeleaf said:


> I want you to know that this was the most influential thing I've read from you. It moved me, and definitely made me reconsider things you've said before in a new light. If we haven't been successful in "changing each other's minds" previously, it may just be because adversarial posts aren't very good at accomplishing that.
> 
> But this does. It is kind, inclusive and heartfelt. Impossible to disregard, and a very powerful message.
> 
> I honestly think ALL of us hold very valuable "truths," hard-won from our own painful experiences and careful observations. My understanding of the world can only be enhanced by adding yours alongside it. Thank you for widening my perspective a little bit.


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> That word again often which is true but that's not always. No doubt that marriages can have a very simple to very complex problems.
> 
> But when the problem comes from the affair that is pretty simplistic by nature. I loved my spouse, he/she cheated, now I can't ever trust them again so I have to move on. Seem clear enough to me


I feel that the problems are there before the affair in most cases.


----------



## Thundarr

sidney2718 said:


> I feel that the problems are there before the affair in most cases.


But really you're speculating on this? If memory serves, you've been married for 50 years or so to the same woman. Honestly that's amazing and it means you know a lot about being a good partner. But It also means you're with a good partner.

The thing about relationships is that it takes two. There's a whole lot of failed relationships where one partner had everything it takes to make it work and the other did not. That's why your comment is offensive (in my humble opinion). I want to say that you don't mean it the way it sounds but again, you've been with a good partner I think so you can't understand what it's like to be with a bad one. There are SO many entitled, selfish people in the world and a marriage is doomed no matter who they're with.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> I was gonna ask you the same thing. I know you say you are a BS, but I just can't shake this feeling that you have been a WS too, or at the very least have cheated on somebody in your lifetime. Hmmmmm


You just keep trying, don't you.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> I was gonna ask you the same thing. I know you say you are a BS, but I just can't shake this feeling that you have been a WS too, or at the very least have cheated on somebody in your lifetime. Hmmmmm


If you want to know my story, Go back and read my threads.........or not. It doesn't matter to me, either way.:sleeping:


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> That word again often which is true but that's not always. No doubt that marriages can have a very simple to very complex problems.
> 
> But when the problem comes from the affair that is pretty simplistic by nature. I loved my spouse, he/she cheated, now I can't ever trust them again so I have to move on. Seem clear enough to me


It's only simple if you ignore all of the factors that lead to the cheating.....or if you were the perfect spouse, and bear no blame for the bad marriage, or you have no kids or if you are financially secure ......or any number of other contributing factors that would make divorce a serious hardship. Cheating sucks.....but so does divorce, and neither one is "simple'.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> It's only simple if you ignore all of the factors that lead to the cheating.....or if you were the perfect spouse, and bear no blame for the bad marriage, or you have no kids or if you are financially secure ......or any number of other contributing factors that would make divorce a serious hardship. Cheating sucks.....but so does divorce, and neither one is "simple'.


It's only complex when you try to add things into a single decision that you make to try and justify it, ie blameshift


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> I feel that the problems are there before the affair in most cases.


And I would use the word in "some" cases. Difference In what we have experienced


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> It's only complex when you try to add things into a single decision that you make to try and justify it, ie blameshift


You're a good guy, Wolf. but you know better. The issues of marriage , infidelity, divorce , reconciliation are enormously complicated, and different in every instance. 
Think of the millions of words spoken and written . Tens of thousands of books, websites, videos, classes, etc, devoted to them. There is literally NOTHING simple about it or them. Think of rape, date rape, ONS's LTA's, EA's, PA's. Think of the religious, social, emotional, financial, familial aspects. Simple? I KNOW you are smarter than to really believe it.


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> It's only simple if you ignore all of the factors that lead to the cheating.....or if you were the perfect spouse, and bear no blame for the bad marriage, or you have no kids or if you are financially secure ......or any number of other contributing factors that would make divorce a serious hardship. Cheating sucks.....but so does divorce, and neither one is "simple'.


Rookie, I completely agree with your last line that neither cheating or divorce is simple, but would you clarify something for me.
Are you suggesting that the unhappy spouse will choose to cheat rather than leave the marriage in order to protect the children and their financial security the hardship of divorce?


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> You're a good guy, Wolf. but you know better. The issues of marriage , infidelity, divorce , reconciliation are enormously complicated, and different in every instance.
> Think of the millions of words spoken and written . Tens of thousands of books, websites, videos, classes, etc, devoted to them. There is literally NOTHING simple about it or them. Think of rape, date rape, ONS's LTA's, EA's, PA's. Think of the religious, social, emotional, financial, familial aspects. Simple? I KNOW you are smarter than to really believe it.[/
> 
> I wasn't talking about relationships being complex I was talking about affairs and the decision to have one not being complex and when one person makes that decision it can be the cause of the divorce. It's is a decision to have an affair
> 
> I see nothing complex about a right and wrong decision. A fork in a road. A left turn and a right turn, the right decision or the wrong decision. I think it is the great chasm between those who hold personal accountability to heart and those who don't. Otherwise all people who are tempted to cheat would. But of course we don't. Just like I don't steal, kill, beat up the idiot who cut me off and so forth and so no.
> 
> These aren't difficult or hard decisions. They are the decisions between right and wrong. Anyone who says circumstances made me do it is weak.
> 
> I steal because I couldn't afford it
> I killed because I was wronged
> I beat up the idiot because he deserved it
> I cheated because I could get away with it
> It doesn't hurt anyone
> I have an unhappy marriage
> Insert excuse here " "
> 
> 
> Now I will say this. This is a me me me mentality in this country. People like yourself and regret who say things like unhealthy marriages caused people to make this bad decision way out number people like me who hold people to personal accountability.
> 
> So I get that and also understand it is no longer good form to make the right decision, fix a problem, or admit maybe we have a problem. We live in a society where it is ALWAYS someone else's fault. I get that I am the old fashioned guy who believes we are responsible for ourselves first. I am outnumbered and certainly born in the wrong decade.


----------



## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> Rookie, I completely agree with your last line that neither cheating or divorce is simple, but would you clarify something for me.
> Are you suggesting that the unhappy spouse will choose to cheat rather than leave the marriage in order to protect the children and their financial security the hardship of divorce?


Not at all, Pluto. what I'm saying is that sometimes divorce isn't an option , financially. We have some posters here on TAM who are not financially able to divorce and are still living together, though more like roommates, than a married couple. But, having said that, there are obviously a great many different scenerios.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Not at all, Pluto. what I'm saying is that sometimes divorce isn't an option , financially. We have some posters here on TAM who are not financially able to divorce and are still living together, though more like roommates, than a married couple. But, having said that, there are obviously a great many different scenerios.


I have also heard this scenario and agree some can't afford to divorce. However that doesn't give them license to cheat. And if the couple is living like roommates, and can't divorce for financial reasons, then at least be honest about going outside the marriage. Everyone deserves the truth and transparency. I don't agree with that decision but I do understand In rare circumstance people can be stuck and opt for an open marriage. So long as all parties agree then the decision is on them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> Not at all, Pluto. what I'm saying is that sometimes divorce isn't an option , financially. We have some posters here on TAM who are not financially able to divorce and are still living together, though more like roommates, than a married couple. But, having said that, there are obviously a great many different scenerios.


In your scenario, how is the decision not to divorce for financial reasons, and choosing to live as roommates connected to the decision to cheat?


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Rookie4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're a good guy, Wolf. but you know better. The issues of marriage , infidelity, divorce , reconciliation are enormously complicated, and different in every instance.
> Think of the millions of words spoken and written . Tens of thousands of books, websites, videos, classes, etc, devoted to them. There is literally NOTHING simple about it or them. Think of rape, date rape, ONS's LTA's, EA's, PA's. Think of the religious, social, emotional, financial, familial aspects. Simple? I KNOW you are smarter than to really believe it.[/
> 
> I wasn't talking about relationships being complex I was talking about affairs and the decision to have one not being complex and when one person makes that decision it can be the cause of the divorce. It's is a decision to have an affair
> 
> I see nothing complex about a right and wrong decision. A fork in a road. A left turn and a right turn, the right decision or the wrong decision. I think it is the great chasm between those who hold personal accountability to heart and those who don't. Otherwise all people who are tempted to cheat would. But of course we don't. Just like I don't steal, kill, beat up the idiot who cut me off and so forth and so no.
> 
> These aren't difficult or hard decisions. They are the decisions between right and wrong. Anyone who says circumstances made me do it is weak.
> 
> I steal because I couldn't afford it
> I killed because I was wronged
> I beat up the idiot because he deserved it
> I cheated because I could get away with it
> It doesn't hurt anyone
> I have an unhappy marriage
> Insert excuse here " "
> 
> 
> Now I will say this. This is a me me me mentality in this country. People like yourself and regret who say things like unhealthy marriages caused people to make this bad decision way out number people like me who hold people to personal accountability.
> 
> So I get that and also understand it is no longer good form to make the right decision, fix a problem, or admit maybe we have a problem. We live in a society where it is ALWAYS someone else's fault. I get that I am the old fashioned guy who believes we are responsible for ourselves first. I am outnumbered and certainly born in the wrong decade.
> 
> 
> 
> Listen, Wolf. There is more personal responsibility in the Good Ol' USA, than in any other country or any other time.
> So, life was simple in the "good old days"? When and where was that? In Nazi Germany, life was simple, in the Soviet Union life was simple, or in all of those Kingdoms and Colonies, life was simple. You obey the guys with the power or bad things happen. That's about as simple as you can get.
> In our country and in the other Democracies, EVERYBODY is responsible for their actions and behavior. But, and it's a big but (sort of like J-Lo) we realized that there are DEGREES of guilt and innocence. 1st, 2nd, degree murder, manslaughter, or petty larceny or petty theft or grand theft are examples. We realized that not all crimes are FULLY the fault of the criminal, and there are sometimes extenuating circumstances. It's called Justice. In Saudi Arabia, the punishment for theft is to cut off the thief's hands, want to live in a country like that? I don't.
> Even here on TAM, we distinguish between PA's and EA's and ONS's and LTA's. Are all WS's guilty , until proven innocent? I always thought it was the other way around. Do you believe that ALL WS's should be punished? What about date rape, what about those WS's who are mentally ill, what about those WS's who come from abusive homes?
> What I'm saying is that one size does not fit all, and it is NEVER a simple matter. Every single act of infidelity is different and shouldn't be lumped into one box or painted with one color.
Click to expand...


----------



## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> In your scenario, how is the decision not to divorce for financial reasons, and choosing to live as roommates connected to the decision to cheat?


It has nothing to do with cheating, it is a matter of necessity. I know a couple ( the husband is a cheater) , who have a child that has serious health problems. They stay together , because their child wouldn't be able to receive the proper care , otherwise. They live together as roommates, until they can divorce without hardship to their child. Life isn't a cookie cutter thing, it is different in each instance.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Listen, Wolf. There is more personal responsibility in the Good Ol' USA, than in any other country or any other time.
> So, life was simple in the "good old days"? When and where was that? In Nazi Germany, life was simple, in the Soviet Union life was simple, or in all of those Kingdoms and Colonies, life was simple. You obey the guys with the power or bad things happen. That's about as simple as you can get.
> In our country and in the other Democracies, EVERYBODY is responsible for their actions and behavior. But, and it's a big but (sort of like J-Lo) we realized that there are DEGREES of guilt and innocence. 1st, 2nd, degree murder, manslaughter, or petty larceny or petty theft or grand theft are examples. We realized that not all crimes are FULLY the fault of the criminal, and there are sometimes extenuating circumstances. It's called Justice. In Saudi Arabia, the punishment for theft is to cut off the thief's hands, want to live in a country like that? I don't.
> Even here on TAM, we distinguish between PA's and EA's and ONS's and LTA's. Are all WS's guilty , until proven innocent? I always thought it was the other way around. Do you believe that ALL WS's should be punished? What about date rape, what about those WS's who are mentally ill, what about those WS's who come from abusive homes?
> What I'm saying is that one size does not fit all, and it is NEVER a simple matter. Every single act of infidelity is different and shouldn't be lumped into one box or painted with one color.
> 
> 
> 
> No I think all WS should take accountability for the choice they make.
> 
> As far as the rest of your statement..... Good lord nazi Germany. Lol get
> Over yourself. Not what I was saying and you know it. And if you think America is the beacon of accountability you're not paying attention. Not saying it's better
> All over the world but people used to hold themselves accountable more than they do now
> 
> And degrees of guilt is exactly proving my point. Like saying 100 different ways you can slip and fall on your ass. No kidding ya think??? But the
> Point is still you fell on your ass isn't it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> It has nothing to do with cheating, it is a matter of necessity. I know a couple ( the husband is a cheater) , who have a child that has serious health problems. They stay together , because their child wouldn't be able to receive the proper care , otherwise. They live together as roommates, until they can divorce without hardship to their child. Life isn't a cookie cutter thing, it is different in each instance.


Who said anything about cookie cutter? And this has everything to do with cheating! My question was in response to your post to Wolf addressing cheating and "all the factors that led to cheating" One of the factors you cited was financial security and I get that. So in your scenario, did the H cheat rather that divorce because of the child's needs, or did the H cheat, the W discover it and they jointly made a decision not to divorce due to the child's needs. 

In my mind the two situations are vastly different. One has to do with the cheater's mind set to engage in infidelity, the other has to do with what a BS will endure for the sake of her child.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> I have also heard this scenario and agree some can't afford to divorce. However that doesn't give them license to cheat. And if the couple is living like roommates, and can't divorce for financial reasons, then at least be honest about going outside the marriage. Everyone deserves the truth and transparency. I don't agree with that decision but I do understand In rare circumstance people can be stuck and opt for an open marriage. So long as all parties agree then the decision is on them
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Often times, the immediate solution isn't one that is perfect, and frequently you have to accept less than that. I was lucky, I didn't have little kids, and was able to kick my wife out. But even then, the divorce wasn't simple at all.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Rookie4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No I think all WS should take accountability for the choice they make.
> 
> As far as the rest of your statement..... Good lord nazi Germany. Lol get
> Over yourself. Not what I was saying and you know it. And if you think America is the beacon of accountability you're not paying attention. Not saying it's better
> All over the world but people used to hold themselves accountable more than they do now
> 
> And degrees of guilt is exactly proving my point. Like saying 100 different ways you can slip and fall on your ass. No kidding ya think??? But the
> Point is still you fell on your ass isn't it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> The point is, that you have to take into account the CAUSE for you falling on your a$$. Again, that's called Justice.
Click to expand...


----------



## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> Who said anything about cookie cutter? And this has everything to do with cheating! My question was in response to your post to Wolf addressing cheating and "all the factors that led to cheating" One of the factors you cited was financial security and I get that. So in your scenario, did the H cheat rather that divorce because of the child's needs, or did the H cheat, the W discover it and they jointly made a decision not to divorce due to the child's needs.
> 
> In my mind the two situations are vastly different. One has to do with the cheater's mind set to engage in infidelity, the other has to do with what a BS will endure for the sake of her child.


I don't know why he cheated. I never found out, and it wasn't my business. All I know is their current living arrangements, because the wife works for me. She is trying to save up enough money for a special kids daycare, but it's really expensive, so I gave her a raise. Hopefully she can move out and divorce his a$$, in the near future.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point is, that you have to take into account the CAUSE for you falling on your a$$. Again, that's called Justice.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes EXACTLY. Finally you're getting my second point which is Learning from your mistake as to not repeat history. Which is why I learned from
> What my x wife did as to avoid those type of people who think cheating is ok.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Often times, the immediate solution isn't one that is perfect, and frequently you have to accept less than that. I was lucky, I didn't have little kids, and was able to kick my wife out. But even then, the divorce wasn't simple at all.


No idea why you keep saying that lol. No one disputes divorce isn't simple. The choice to cheat is a right or wrong choice and rarely and in depth let me think out all the consequences of this choice I'm about to make kinda thing. It's an I want this going to have it or a no this isn't right so I have to say no. That part isn't complicated
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> I don't know why he cheated. I never found out, and it wasn't my business. All I know is their current living arrangements, because the wife works for me. She is trying to save up enough money for a special kids daycare, but it's really expensive, so I gave her a raise. Hopefully she can move out and divorce his a$$, in the near future.


Its good of you to be supportive of your employees, a lot of bosses just aren't.
But to the point I thought your were making- about factors existed in an unhappy marriage that somehow "led to cheating"-really isn't applicable to this complex scenario. Its sad and tragic that this is happening to the family.


----------



## doubletrouble

Dad&Hubby said:


> LOL my ex and myself weren't well adjusted when we were married, but I'd consider myself "reformed" :smthumbup:. My wife now is well adjusted, so that's 50-50 with 3 people.
> 
> A lot of it is experience. My divorce attorney said to me. *"They should make it illegal for men to marry before the age of 30"* because of how many problems he sees with immaturity in marriages.


My W and I have said the same thing. Or that marriage of younger folks should have an expiration date. If you reach that date and still want to be married, you can go for another 5 years or whatever. 

My first marriage started when I was 19. Holy crap that was a mistake.


----------



## Wolf1974

doubletrouble said:


> My W and I have said the same thing. Or that marriage of younger folks should have an expiration date. If you reach that date and still want to be married, you can go for another 5 years or whatever.
> 
> My first marriage started when I was 19. Holy crap that was a mistake.


Holy crap....19? Man I can't imagine that at all


----------



## lenzi

Wolf1974 said:


> However that doesn't give them license to cheat.


A person doesn't need a license to cheat.

You need a license to drive, and to carry a gun, and to perform certain occupations such as being a doctor.

But if a person wants to cheat, they can just do it. Even though some other people may say it's wrong or immoral or whatever.

I'm thinking the cheater doesn't give a rat's ass about what you or anyone else says about them needing a license or being immoral.


----------



## Almostrecovered

you guys are posting too much I can't work and keep up with this thread


----------



## Wolf1974

lenzi said:


> A person doesn't need a license to cheat.
> 
> You need a license to drive, and to carry a gun, and to perform certain occupations such as being a doctor.
> 
> But if a person wants to cheat, they can just do it. Even though some other people may say it's wrong or immoral or whatever.
> 
> I'm thinking the cheater doesn't give a rat's ass about what you or anyone else says about them needing a license or *being immoral.*




Well this post has more than proven that lol


----------



## soulpotato

Almostrecovered said:


> you guys are posting too much I can't work and keep up with this thread


LOL!! :iagree:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Almostrecovered said:


> you guys are posting too much I can't work and keep up with this thread


Here I will help ya out

Page one = some people take personal accountability and others don't in the area of cheating

Blah blah blah

Page 122 = some people take personal accountability and others don't in the area of cheating

You are all caught up my dancing turtle friend


----------



## lenzi

I don't get the point of this debate.

A cheater's going to cheat and a cheater's going to rationalize and justify and blameshift and rugsweep.

No matter what all the finger pointers have to say about how wrong it is.

Doesn't change a thing. Never will.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> No idea why you keep saying that lol. No one disputes divorce isn't simple. The choice to cheat is a right or wrong choice and rarely and in depth let me think out all the consequences of this choice I'm about to make kinda thing. It's an I want this going to have it or a no this isn't right so I have to say no. That part isn't complicated
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, good luck with that then, because you're going to need it. Personally, I would like to PREVENT cheating, like preventing Cancer, but that's me.


----------



## doubletrouble

Wolf1974 said:


> Holy crap....19? Man I can't imagine that at all


Were I to write a book about it, the first chapter would be titled, "DON'T DO IT!"

Live 'n' learn... She took my virginity, it _had _to be love.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Rookie4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes EXACTLY. Finally you're getting my second point which is Learning from your mistake as to not repeat history. Which is why I learned from
> What my x wife did as to avoid those type of people who think cheating is ok.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> You should also learn to be more tolerant of others opinions, that might help you a lot.
Click to expand...


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Here I will help ya out
> 
> Page one = some people take personal accountability and others don't in the area of cheating
> 
> Blah blah blah
> 
> Page 122 = some people take personal accountability and others don't in the area of cheating
> 
> You are all caught up my dancing turtle friend


Actually, post #1 welcoming Waywards, and outraging BS's, who seem to think that means that I excuse infidelity.


----------



## Rookie4

doubletrouble said:


> Were I to write a book about it, the first chapter would be titled, "DON'T DO IT!"
> 
> Live 'n' learn... She took my virginity, it _had _to be love.


If only. Yep, like Jerry Reed says" why didn't I just learn how to cook"?


----------



## Rookie4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHvIcHbEHSU


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You should also learn to be more tolerant of others opinions, that might help you a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol right cause that's what you do. You told me to leave cause I disagreed with your opinion and called
> Others names when they disagreed with you. You need to take your own advice. I never called you a name or told you to leave cause I don't agree with you. That's your tactics when you don't like what you hear. Not mine
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Well, good luck with that then, because you're going to need it. Personally, I would like to PREVENT cheating, like preventing Cancer, but that's me.


News flash You can do all the prevention you want and still get cancer. And my point all along, that you keep glossing over in your passive aggressive way , is that the only way to prevent being cheated on is to find someone who with their core beliefs believe that it's not the solution to a problem. Even then you have to hope that when the chips are down they will still make the right decision
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## changedbeliefs

I'm going to sum up my opinion and issues with posting here, as a WS, in any thread that involves infidelity:

* personal accountability: this does not mean "shoulder 100% of the blame," it means willingly claiming YOUR portion. There are posters on here who, in no uncertain terms, believe a WS is 100% responsible. ANY, and I mean ANY hint, nuance, allusion AT ALL that there was something - about their marriage, about their spouse, anything - that may even LOOK like it's trying to be an "excuse" is met with a sledgehammer of criticism.

* morality: there are very extreme phrases, and very strong passive-aggressive comments, used on this board regarding the lack of morality, principles, etc..., of a WS. It is quite casual, as the internet is wont to be, to use "POS" on here, and it's really exclusively used when speaking of WS (or AP's). Think about that, to refer to a human being as a piece of s**t.... The fact is, there is a very strong tone on here, that WS's are a "lower level" of humanity, and that they always will be, regardless if they R'd, or what. And I'll tell you why it is especially hard to stomach that for those of us that are trying to R through it....because deep down, it stirs something in us, that makes us wonder if our BS's think that, too.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Wolf1974 said:


> the only way to prevent being cheated on is to find someone who with their core beliefs believe that it's not the solution to a problem. Even then you have to hope that when the chips are down they will still make the right decision


The thing is, I thought I was that person... until I cheated. It's that fact that has reformed my view. One of the surprises from discussing my divorce was a number of people who revealed to me the infidelity in their marriages - all people I would never have imagined as being capable of cheating. I myself had dozens of chances to cheat, where it was there for the taking and no one could know... and refused repeatedly, even ending friendships because of it.

My new view - no one is of invulnerably righteous integrity. We all fail given circumstances in which we're particularly vulnerable. Best not to rely on imagined unflinching character... and instead rely on ensuring that those circumstances don't exist. We're human, and we all may fail.

If on the other hand you're with a cake-eater who cheats... well, good riddance, no? They likely never had intention to be faithful. They weren't who you thought they were... which is to say, you had been lied to long before they actually cheated.


----------



## changedbeliefs

DvlsAdvc8: couldn't have said it better. Trust me, my A is a runaway #1 for the event in my life I would change, and I would far from "recommend" it to anyone, but with all due respect to that, it gave me a very "enlightened," if you will, perspective on life, relationships and UNDERSTANDING of people's mistakes and flaws.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> News flash You can do all the prevention you want and still get cancer. And my point all along, that you keep glossing over in your passive aggressive way , is that the only way to prevent being cheated on is to find someone who with their core beliefs believe that it's not the solution to a problem. Even then you have to hope that when the chips are down they will still make the right decision
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, good for you. But I prefer actions to faith and hope. Seems to work better for me, but you do as you like.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Rookie4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lol right cause that's what you do. You told me to leave cause I disagreed with your opinion and called
> Others names when they disagreed with you. You need to take your own advice. I never called you a name or told you to leave cause I don't agree with you. That's your tactics when you don't like what you hear. Not mine
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me somebody I called a name? I would be interested.
Click to expand...


----------



## Rookie4

changedbeliefs said:


> I'm going to sum up my opinion and issues with posting here, as a WS, in any thread that involves infidelity:
> 
> * personal accountability: this does not mean "shoulder 100% of the blame," it means willingly claiming YOUR portion. There are posters on here who, in no uncertain terms, believe a WS is 100% responsible. ANY, and I mean ANY hint, nuance, allusion AT ALL that there was something - about their marriage, about their spouse, anything - that may even LOOK like it's trying to be an "excuse" is met with a sledgehammer of criticism.
> 
> * morality: there are very extreme phrases, and very strong passive-aggressive comments, used on this board regarding the lack of morality, principles, etc..., of a WS. It is quite casual, as the internet is wont to be, to use "POS" on here, and it's really exclusively used when speaking of WS (or AP's). Think about that, to refer to a human being as a piece of s**t.... The fact is, there is a very strong tone on here, that WS's are a "lower level" of humanity, and that they always will be, regardless if they R'd, or what. And I'll tell you why it is especially hard to stomach that for those of us that are trying to R through it....because deep down, it stirs something in us, that makes us wonder if our BS's think that, too.


Very good post.


----------



## changedbeliefs

Thank you, Rookie.


----------



## Rookie4

changedbeliefs said:


> DvlsAdvc8: couldn't have said it better. Trust me, my A is a runaway #1 for the event in my life I would change, and I would far from "recommend" it to anyone, but with all due respect to that, it gave me a very "enlightened," if you will, perspective on life, relationships and UNDERSTANDING of people's mistakes and flaws.


Of course, to a lot of posters, WS's are indeed a lower life form. And also The BS is blameless. Heaven forbid that BOTH should even try to understand the other. Hey, that would be communication and it's so much better to rely on rigid faith, promises and wishes, than it is to actually learn something, or work on a marriage.


----------



## Wolf1974

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The thing is, I thought I was that person... until I cheated. It's that fact that has reformed my view. One of the surprises from discussing my divorce was a number of people who revealed to me the infidelity in their marriages - all people I would never have imagined as being capable of cheating. I myself had dozens of chances to cheat, where it was there for the taking and no one could know... and refused repeatedly, even ending friendships because of it.
> 
> My new view - no one is of invulnerably righteous integrity. We all fail given circumstances in which we're particularly vulnerable. Best not to rely on imagined unflinching character... and instead rely on ensuring that those circumstances don't exist. We're human, and we all may fail.
> 
> If on the other hand you're with a cake-eater who cheats... well, good riddance, no? They likely never had intention to be faithful. They weren't who you thought they were... which is to say, you had been lied to long before they actually cheated.



Well the cake eater absolutely is true. That was my x who's self importance came first in all things. And in that her justification justified cheating. And you're right good riddance and learn to not pick totally selfish people in your life. I knew her deal before I married her and it's on me that I trusted her anyway.

As for the cheating thing I agree. People do make mistakes despite what others are saying here. I gave example my friend who was drunk and cheated. He never thought he would either and he did. I have also been in that position and made the choice not to cheat. Never once felt superior that I made a decision my x wouldn't I just held onto my values even in a weak moment. Done that twice and actually second time was much harder. So while I agree with most of what your saying I don't agree that everyone cheats under certain circumstance cause plenty of people can and do say no when the chips are down. Many variables to it for sure
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me somebody I called a name? I would be interested.
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't call posters poopheads that Didn't agree with you? That's wasn't you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## Rookie4

Two things I did learn from my cheating ex wife were how horribly she felt about it and how anyone can change. She changed from a perfect wife and Mom to a cheater, but hated the change and has worked like a dog to get her integrity back. If I had been able to fall in love with her again, there is no woman alive that I would trust more (except my present GF, of course)


----------



## Wolf1974

changedbeliefs said:


> I'm going to sum up my opinion and issues with posting here, as a WS, in any thread that involves infidelity:
> 
> * personal accountability: this does not mean "shoulder 100% of the blame," it means willingly claiming YOUR portion. There are posters on here who, in no uncertain terms, believe a WS is 100% responsible. ANY, and I mean ANY hint, nuance, allusion AT ALL that there was something - about their marriage, about their spouse, anything - that may even LOOK like it's trying to be an "excuse" is met with a sledgehammer of criticism.
> 
> * morality: there are very extreme phrases, and very strong passive-aggressive comments, used on this board regarding the lack of morality, principles, etc..., of a WS. It is quite casual, as the internet is wont to be, to use "POS" on here, and it's really exclusively used when speaking of WS (or AP's). Think about that, to refer to a human being as a piece of s**t.... The fact is, there is a very strong tone on here, that WS's are a "lower level" of humanity, and that they always will be, regardless if they R'd, or what. And I'll tell you why it is especially hard to stomach that for those of us that are trying to R through it....because deep down, it stirs something in us, that makes us wonder if our BS's think that, too.


A 100% Blame for a bad marriage or 100%
Blame for the act of cheating?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Rookie4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't call posters poopheads that Didn't agree with you? That's wasn't you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, I said that, but addressed it to nobody and said it was a joke. You'll have to look harder.
Click to expand...


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, I said that, but addressed it to nobody and said it was a joke. You'll have to look harder.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah that's enough for me.
> 
> Certainly didn't take it as a joke. Seemed childish honestly but nuisances of written word doesn't always convey intent accurately so will just have to take your word at that
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Rookie4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nah that's enough for me.
> 
> Certainly didn't take it as a joke. Seemed childish honestly but nuisances of written word doesn't always convey intent accurately so will just have to take your word at that
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, absolutely right. It's really tough to convey emotion on the web. That's why I really liked Healer's last post. He did a great job of it. I wish I could do as well. But I'm an engineer, I don't know sh*t (besides, I type like crap).
Click to expand...


----------



## sidney2718

lenzi said:


> I don't get the point of this debate.
> 
> A cheater's going to cheat and a cheater's going to rationalize and justify and blameshift and rugsweep.
> 
> No matter what all the finger pointers have to say about how wrong it is.
> 
> Doesn't change a thing. Never will.


Except that's not the issue.


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> News flash You can do all the prevention you want and still get cancer. And my point all along, that you keep glossing over in your passive aggressive way , is that the only way to prevent being cheated on is to find someone who with their core beliefs believe that it's not the solution to a problem. Even then you have to hope that when the chips are down they will still make the right decision
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are right. Rookie should have said "alleviate" cancer. You do that by knowing the symptoms, getting treatment, and taking steps to change your lifestyle so as to make cancer's spread less likely. People have been cured this way.

Infidelity is somewhat the same. You know the symptoms, you get treatment, and you change your lifestyle. That way it can sometimes be nipped in the bud. And if it has already happened and you wish to save your marriage, this way will help.


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> You are right. Rookie should have said "alleviate" cancer. You do that by knowing the symptoms, getting treatment, and taking steps to change your lifestyle so as to make cancer's spread less likely. People have been cured this way.
> 
> Infidelity is somewhat the same. You know the symptoms, you get treatment, and you change your lifestyle. That way it can sometimes be nipped in the bud. And if it has already happened and you wish to save your marriage, this way will help.


This can be the true for sure. But again we assume two healthy and non selfish people in the marriage who are doing it his. If you can find two people who care take their marriage and each other ABOVE themselves then you can take preventative steps to deter infidelity. Have agreed with that all along

However when you have one or both parties who have mental issues or only out for themselves and everyone else is second then no matter what you do you can't stop the other persons choices because they will always make them for the self first and not the good of the marriage or the family. That's the chasm we disagree on


----------



## Rookie4

ScarletBegonias said:


> I wouldn't want DH to take ANY responsibility for my brief EA and bad behavior. It was disgusting and I despise myself every single day for being so weak and pathetic.One minute you're talking and joking,commiserating about random things then the next you're being completely inappropriate. I could say it's because DH doesn't compliment me enough,doesn't make me feel like he lusts for me,etc. But really,that's just an excuse to cover up the fact that I'm weak and have p*ss poor boundaries. I'm lucky DH recognizes how much I hate myself for my actions and understands I have problems that I'm trying really hard to fix.
> So the only things I can do is take 100% responsibility,provide complete transparency,stick w/my therapy,and try not to hurt myself. Every day is a reminder of how I failed and every day is a struggle to get out of bed.DH seems perfectly fine now but I'm not fine at all. I hate myself at this point. He should leave me,I deserve that.


Sounds to me as if you are doing quite well, SB, as far as being remorseful goes. Trouble is, you can't really progress until you ease up on yourself. I'm betting that you are a very nice person, who screwed up. Now....fix the screw up and be a nice person again.:smthumbup: You can do it.


----------



## sidney2718

ScarletBegonias said:


> I wouldn't want DH to take ANY responsibility for my brief EA and bad behavior. It was disgusting and I despise myself every single day for being so weak and pathetic.One minute you're talking and joking,commiserating about random things then the next you're being completely inappropriate. I could say it's because DH doesn't compliment me enough,doesn't make me feel like he lusts for me,etc. But really,that's just an excuse to cover up the fact that I'm weak and have p*ss poor boundaries. I'm lucky DH recognizes how much I hate myself for my actions and understands I have problems that I'm trying really hard to fix.
> So the only things I can do is take 100% responsibility,provide complete transparency,stick w/my therapy,and try not to hurt myself. Every day is a reminder of how I failed and every day is a struggle to get out of bed.DH seems perfectly fine now but I'm not fine at all. I hate myself at this point. He should leave me,I deserve that.


Have you sought professional help. I'm not an expert in any way but this smacks of serious depression.

If you really believe that you and he should not be together, why are you together?

I refuse to think that you are second class scum. You are a living, breathing human being with emotions, problems, good points and bad. You had an EA, which many would think is inappropriate but not in the same class as a PA. You are not at all unusual. If I were your husband I'd be trying to improve your self-esteem as well as forgiving you for what you did. And I'd get you into counselling right away.

Just my two cents and probably worthless advice.


----------



## Rookie4

sidney2718 said:


> You are right. Rookie should have said "alleviate" cancer. You do that by knowing the symptoms, getting treatment, and taking steps to change your lifestyle so as to make cancer's spread less likely. People have been cured this way.
> 
> Infidelity is somewhat the same. You know the symptoms, you get treatment, and you change your lifestyle. That way it can sometimes be nipped in the bud. And if it has already happened and you wish to save your marriage, this way will help.


Actually, I probably should have said both.


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> This can be the true for sure. But again we assume two healthy and non selfish people in the marriage who are doing it his. If you can find two people who care take their marriage and each other ABOVE themselves then you can take preventative steps to deter infidelity. Have agreed with that all along
> 
> However when you have one or both parties who have mental issues or only out for themselves and everyone else is second then no matter what you do you can't stop the other persons choices because they will always make them for the self first and not the good of the marriage or the family. That's the chasm we disagree on


As far as I know that's like diagnosing cancer before there is any. I don't know how to find out if a potential partner is a potential cheater or not. I do think that many if not most of us have our breaking points. We should learn them and try to avoid them as much as possible. And to try to help our spouses do the same.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Wolf1974 said:


> I don't agree that everyone cheats under certain circumstance cause plenty of people can and do say no when the chips are down. Many variables to it for sure.


Hey, I'm one of them... I said no many times when the chips were down. What makes a person who has repeatedly made decisions with integrity when the chips are down to suddenly fail at a later date?

I don't think the person changed. Lots of variables, same person.


----------



## Wolf1974

ScarletBegonias said:


> I wouldn't want DH to take ANY responsibility for my brief EA and bad behavior. It was disgusting and I despise myself every single day for being so weak and pathetic.One minute you're talking and joking,commiserating about random things then the next you're being completely inappropriate. I could say it's because DH doesn't compliment me enough,doesn't make me feel like he lusts for me,etc. But really,that's just an excuse to cover up the fact that I'm weak and have p*ss poor boundaries. I'm lucky DH recognizes how much I hate myself for my actions and understands I have problems that I'm trying really hard to fix.
> So the only things I can do is take 100% responsibility,provide complete transparency,stick w/my therapy,and try not to hurt myself. Every day is a reminder of how I failed and every day is a struggle to get out of bed.DH seems perfectly fine now but I'm not fine at all. I hate myself at this point. He should leave me,I deserve that.


You madam have my respect for admitting your fault in this. I wish my x would have had a glimpse of this. I have little doubt that with this type of self reflection it won't happen again.


----------



## Wolf1974

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Hey, I'm one of them... I said no many times when the chips were down. What makes a person who has repeatedly made decisions with integrity when the chips are down to suddenly fail at a later date?
> 
> I don't think the person changed. Lots of variables, same person.


Could be. I can't disagree with the conjecture since I can only say On my deathbed that I said I would never cheat and I never have. Never hasn't happened for me yet. What I will say is that I have been tested and tested hard but was never more than a temptation that I overcame.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> This can be the true for sure. But again we assume two healthy and non selfish people in the marriage who are doing it his. If you can find two people who care take their marriage and each other ABOVE themselves then you can take preventative steps to deter infidelity. Have agreed with that all along
> 
> However when you have one or both parties who have mental issues or only out for themselves and everyone else is second then no matter what you do you can't stop the other persons choices because they will always make them for the self first and not the good of the marriage or the family. That's the chasm we disagree on


I don't disagree with this at all. Selfish people are selfish people. Where we disagree is that I don't believe that all WS's are necessarily selfish people. Flawed reasoning, OK, poor boundaries, ok but not necessarily selfish tramps.


----------



## Pluto2

ScarletBegonias said:


> I wouldn't want DH to take ANY responsibility for my brief EA and bad behavior. It was disgusting and I despise myself every single day for being so weak and pathetic.One minute you're talking and joking,commiserating about random things then the next you're being completely inappropriate. I could say it's because DH doesn't compliment me enough,doesn't make me feel like he lusts for me,etc. But really,that's just an excuse to cover up the fact that I'm weak and have p*ss poor boundaries. I'm lucky DH recognizes how much I hate myself for my actions and understands I have problems that I'm trying really hard to fix.
> So the only things I can do is take 100% responsibility,provide complete transparency,stick w/my therapy,and try not to hurt myself. Every day is a reminder of how I failed and every day is a struggle to get out of bed.DH seems perfectly fine now but I'm not fine at all. I hate myself at this point. He should leave me,I deserve that.


It sounds as though your DH is willing to forgive you-so maybe you should give that a try, too. Forgive yourself. It sure doesn't sound as though the person you were then is the person you are now. You are taking responsibility for your actions-something I guarantee you my ex will never do. This is huge. Part of taking responsibility for your actions includes trying to make amends-something else you sound like you are trying to do.


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> As far as I know that's like diagnosing cancer before there is any. I don't know how to find out if a potential partner is a potential cheater or not. I do think that many if not most of us have our breaking points. *We should learn them and try to avoid them as much as possible.* And to try to help our spouses do the same.


Have no issues with that. I also think finding someone who has a morale code that aligns with you is also preventative. As is looking into their past behavior as an indication of present or future behavior. All plays a part


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> I don't disagree with this at all. Selfish people are selfish people. Where we disagree is that I don't believe that all WS's are necessarily selfish people. Flawed reasoning, OK, poor boundaries, ok but not necessarily selfish tramps.


And I never said they were ALL. Actually I said the opposite. What I have maintained is the affair is self serving and selfish. Not that all of them are 100% selfish people through everything they do in life.


----------



## Rookie4

ScarletBegonias said:


> I hurt the only person,other than my child,that I love.Absolutely I'm depressed.Beyond depressed.I quit tam for about a month but after talking to my doc about it,she decided it would be good for me to talk about it here when I was ready.
> I feel we do belong together but I am not worthy of him so I wonder why he stays.He feels responsible for things and that's even harder to deal with bc I don't want him to feel responsible at all.It wasn't his choice to have me do what I did.He's so worried about my emotional stability at this point and it sucks bc he shouldn't have to worry at all after what I put him through.I want him to be angry bc I deserve it. I want him to punish me because I deserve it. I don't know how else to describe the feelings. I'm just lost and completely undeserving of kindness.Sort of spiraling I guess.


You are getting counseling.. that is good. You are remorseful......that is good too (up to a point), you recognize what happened and accept responsibility... that is good as well. See, you are doing LOTS of good things, therefore you are a good person. Now all you need is time to heal. 
Think of it this way. Your husband loves you enough to reconcile.... right? If you were not worthy, then you wouldn't be having this opportunity. Think positive and look to a better future. Consign the past to the past.


----------



## Wolf1974

ScarletBegonias said:


> I hurt the only person,other than my child,that I love.Absolutely I'm depressed.Beyond depressed.I quit tam for about a month but after talking to my doc about it,she decided it would be good for me to talk about it here when I was ready.
> I feel we do belong together but I am not worthy of him so [*B]I wonder why he stays.*He feels responsible for things and that's even harder to deal with bc I don't want him to feel responsible at all.I[/B]t wasn't his choice to have me do what I did.He's so worried about my emotional stability at this point and it sucks bc he shouldn't have to worry at all after what I put him through.I want him to be angry bc I deserve it. I want him to punish me because I deserve it. I don't know how else to describe the feelings. I'm just lost and completely undeserving of kindness.Sort of spiraling I guess.


Having been on the other side of this, having had my heart ripped out with no apology what so ever, I feel confident that it's this statement on why he stays. Because you whole heartedly accepted responsibility. Not many of us ever get that


----------



## Wolf1974

ScarletBegonias said:


> He has rationalized it by saying my heart wasn't involved and I was just getting my superficial confidence boosted. It's true my heart wasn't in it at all but it doesn't make it any better.


Do you think if you had used your body that would have been a deal breaker for him? I think I may have been able to move forward with my x had it not been a physical thing


----------



## Wolf1974

ScarletBegonias said:


> His capacity for love and forgiveness is astounding so I'm not sure what he'd forgive at this point.I will never ever find out either.This was bad enough.


I'm glad you came here Scarlet. You have illustrated to many wayward that accepting responsibility for your mistake is the only way to forgiveness. I'm sure in many ways that your marriage may be stronger for this, if for no other reason that you learned to have stronger boundaries with men to prevent this from happening again.

It's sounds like your husband has forgiven you. I think you should forgive your shortcomings that caused this as they have been fixed. I would also offer don't concentrate on the past and beat yourself up. Your husband gave you a wonderful gift of forgiveness and he made a choice to stay with you. 

Every single day prove to him that was the right choice.


----------



## Paladin

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Wolf1974 said:


> Rookie4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes EXACTLY. Finally you're getting my second point which is Learning from your mistake as to not repeat history. Which is why I learned from
> What my x wife did as to avoid those type of people who think cheating is ok.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Did you know she thought cheating was OK before you married?
Click to expand...


----------



## Maricha75

Well, SB, when I had my EA, my husband would have killed me if I contacted the AP after coming clean to him and no contact was established. As long as you never contacted him after that point, and no longer attempt ever, then you should be fine. And as long as it was only one person. I've already posted on here that it happened twice for my own. This is why I said earlier in the thread that I have to guard myself with any male interaction, be it here on TAM or anywhere else... even in PM's. I try to avoid drawing attention to myself... unless I'm getting angry about behavior and what some people post. 
Anyway, like I said, as long as your husband knows who, when, saw every exchange between you, etc. you should be ok.


----------



## Wolf1974

Paladin said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you know she thought cheating was OK before you married?
> 
> 
> 
> I knew that she had cheated. What she told me was much of what is on this thread. That she was unhappy, her husband was mean and controlling, that she was never listened to and that she was disrespected. She further told me that she learned from her mistake and wouldn't repeat this ever because she would never again be with a guy who did these things to her.
> 
> So I believed her and believed that if I showed her true love and didn't ever abandon her ,like she presumes her father did, that she would return that love and never cheat. I told her that was my one deal breaker and we could talk about anything but don't cheat. Well I overestimated my ability to love a damaged woman and underestimated her ability to take accountability. So now when she is talking to he next guy I'm sure I am the mean and controlling one. And on and on goes the cycle. Least with friends and family I exposed the truth about her and she lost most all of them cause of
> It.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## Paladin

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Wolf1974 said:


> Paladin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I knew that she had cheated. What she told me was much of what is on this thread. That she was unhappy, her husband was mean and controlling, that she was never listened to and that she was disrespected. She further told me that she learned from her mistake and wouldn't repeat this ever because she would never again be with a guy who did these things to her.
> 
> So I believed her and believed that if I showed her true love and didn't ever abandon her ,like she presumes her father did, that she would return that love and never cheat. I told her that was my one deal breaker and we could talk about anything but don't cheat. Well I overestimated my ability to love a damaged woman and underestimated her ability to take accountability. So now when she is talking to he next guy I'm sure I am the mean and controlling one. And on and on goes the cycle. Least with friends and family I exposed the truth about her and she lost most all of them cause of
> It.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> So do you think your marriage was healthy before she cheated?
Click to expand...


----------



## Wolf1974

Paladin said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So do you think your marriage was healthy before she cheated?
> 
> 
> 
> It was healthy yes. Perfect no. I was contributing more to the marriage than her without complaint because to my mind that was what I signed up for.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Do you think if you had used your body that would have been a deal breaker for him? I think I may have been able to move forward with my x had it not been a physical thing


I don't think we need to dwell on all of the gory details. Right now , the focus should be on SB's state of mind and her future. I'm pretty sure that she already is aware of the past trauma to both her and her husband. Re-hashing it would only cause more anxiety.


----------



## Paladin

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Wolf1974 said:


> Paladin said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was healthy yes. Perfect no. I was contributing more to the marriage than her without complaint because to my mind that was what I signed up for.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for clarifying. My post infidelity view of what constitutes a healthy marriage includes 100% transparency between both spouses and a desire by both spouses to constantly work toward making such an elevated relationship (the marriage) as good as both of them can make it. I would not be able to describe your previous marriage as healthy by that definition. That is why I think there can not be a healthy marriage between two people if one of them is not healthy, or not actually making an effort. Even if you doubled the effort you described making, would it have made an impact on her decision to cheat?
Click to expand...


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> I don't think we need to dwell on all of the gory details. Right now , the focus should be on SB's state of mind and her future. I'm pretty sure that she already is aware of the past trauma to both her and her husband. Re-hashing it would only cause more anxiety.


Ohh please no one is dwelling on anything. It was a simple question for clarity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Paladin said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for clarifying. My post infidelity view of what constitutes a healthy marriage includes 100% transparency between both spouses and a desire by both spouses to constantly work toward making such an elevated relationship (the marriage) as good as both of them can make it. I would not be able to describe your previous marriage as healthy by that definition. That is why I think there can not be a healthy marriage between two people if one of them is not healthy, or not actually making an effort. Even if you doubled the effort you described making, would it have made an impact on her decision to cheat?
> 
> 
> 
> Ohh she made the effort. And were were transparent up until the affair when the lies started for the first time. It's fine if you have a different definition. I certainly disagree that all people who cheat are in unhealthy marriages
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Wolf1974 said:


> Ohh please no one is dwelling on anything. It was a simple question for clarity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Besides, the way it sounds, it's pretty fresh in her mind, so I'd say it was within the last few months. And, she did post here, so I would say she wants help. Though, her own thread might help here, too... just a thought.


----------



## FalconKing

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't want to hijack the thread, its a long story, but when we married, we expected to be DINKs. Neither of us wanted kids and we were both pretty selfish. 6 years in, she changes her mind, and begins a campaign to convince me that lasted another couple years. I go along thinking she needs this to be happy - and not wanting to break-up over it or deny her something she really wants. ie her happiness is my happiness. We have our first, and she withdraws from all the activities we did together - activities on which we built the relationship. Everything becomes about my new daughter. I figure its a limited time thing... and that's what everyone else tells me. I focus my efforts on trying to convince her to be less overbearing of my daughter, and be willing step away and spend more time with me. I'm not happy, we have many conversations, but they usually amounted to no more than one date night. Soon thereafter we have my son.
> 
> 
> 
> She is consumed by being a mother. There's little else to her. She wants to be a SAHM. All of our activity is child related. Never wants to have sex. Has difficulty leaving the kids with a babysitter... "I don't get enough time with them!" While I'm trying to explain that she gets even less time with me.
> 
> 
> 
> Many other issues grew... but this was the seed. I didn't have a marriage, I had a mother. A woman literally obsessed with being a mom - her entire identity wrapped up in it and "selflessness". Any time out with me, was a "taking" from the children that made her feel guilty. Kinky sex we had prior was out the window, moms don't do that. Hell, her sex drive entirely vanished. Mine even suffered... her every conversation was kid related. Family activities, play dates, what they did today... what my son's poop was like. Drove me out of my mind.
> 
> 
> 
> I spent the next years trying to find the person I married again, trying to improve myself such that she'd value me again, doubting myself in bed because she never wanted to have sex. Fixing a billion things she made up to justify her missing sex drive. Trying to discuss such things without sounding like a complainer or selfish. Ultimately, I felt like I was unnecessary to her. In getting kids, she got what she wanted from me... and nothing else was needed.
> 
> 
> 
> Eventually (about 7 years after the bad stuff began) I stopped trying. I started doing the things I enjoyed, even if I had to do them alone, and just figured this is just how marriages go. It was on one of those days doing my own thing I met someone who seemed to want me. Ironically, my wife had been invited and declined... as usual.



That gave me chills reading that. You pretty much described my biggest fear in marriage. I love kids but this is one of the reasons I don't know if I want any. Besides the affair, I would've did everything you did and felt the same way about everything. It doesn't really sound like something you could be prepared for as people have the right to change their mind about things. Even some of the women here who have an active love life, talk about their lack of desire when they had young kids. I guess it's something you have to wait out but I don't want to be put on a shelf into kids start grade school. And that may be best case scenario for some. 

Sorry about the thread jack.


----------



## Wolf1974

FalconKing said:


> That gave me chills reading that. You pretty much described my biggest fear in marriage. I love kids but this is one of the reasons I don't know if I want any. Besides the affair, I would've did everything you did and felt the same way about everything. It doesn't really sound like something you could be prepared for as people have the right to change their mind about things. Even some of the women here who have an active love life, talk about their lack of desire when they had young kids. I guess it's something you have to wait out but I don't want to be put on a shelf into kids start grade school. And that may be best case scenario for some.
> 
> Sorry about the thread jack.


Just remember this is one perspective. It doesn't have to be this way. In my marriage our sex life improved when we had kids. Not cause of the kids mind you but because we had to find ways to have date nights in. Amazing the things you will come up with when you have time lol. So we right up till the end had sex min 3 night a week.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

ScarletBegonias said:


> I hurt the only person,other than my child,that I love.Absolutely I'm depressed.Beyond depressed.I quit tam for about a month but after talking to my doc about it,she decided it would be good for me to talk about it here when I was ready.
> I feel we do belong together but I am not worthy of him so I wonder why he stays.He feels responsible for things and that's even harder to deal with bc I don't want him to feel responsible at all.It wasn't his choice to have me do what I did.He's so worried about my emotional stability at this point and it sucks bc he shouldn't have to worry at all after what I put him through.I want him to be angry bc I deserve it. I want him to punish me because I deserve it. I don't know how else to describe the feelings. I'm just lost and completely undeserving of kindness.Sort of spiraling I guess.


There's no reason to think you aren't worthy of him. Yes, you made a mistake and you've made amends. You've shown real remorse. The fact is that you're a sensitive soul with a big heart (I've seen pics!) and that's why you're beating yourself up so much. You don't deserve punishment, you deserve happiness.


----------



## FalconKing

Wolf1974 said:


> Just remember this is one perspective. It doesn't have to be this way. In my marriage our sex life improved when we had kids. Not cause of the kids mind you but because we had to find ways to have date nights in. Amazing the things you will come up with when you have time lol. So we right up till the end had sex min 3 night a week.



Thanks for your words, Wolf. I've read your situation and with this level of intimacy I really don't know how your wife found time for an affair. It's easy to understand your stance on her owning everything that ended the marriage. It doesn't really sound like the marriage was suffering from lack of connection. 

I think there are marriages where communication breaks down and needs aren't met, and then one person is weak to temptation. Reading this entire thread I feel like maybe you feel the need to speak up because that wasn't really the case in your marriage and people think you are just not understanding what they are saying. It seems like your marriage wasn't terrible, it was good and you shouldn't have to own anything because she cheated. I can see both sides of it though, and I honestly find your situation to be the exception. 

The only thing that really surprised me about this thread was jld's comments. I had no idea she had such gender bias and was so brazen about it.


----------



## Wolf1974

FalconKing said:


> Thanks for your words, Wolf. I've read your situation and with this level of intimacy I really don't know how your wife found time for an affair. It's easy to understand your stance on her owning everything that ended the marriage. It doesn't really sound like the marriage was suffering from lack of connection.
> 
> I think there are marriages where communication breaks down and needs aren't met, and then one person is weak to temptation. Reading this entire thread I feel like maybe you feel the need to speak up because that wasn't really the case in your marriage and people think you are just not understanding what they are saying. It seems like your marriage wasn't terrible, it was good and you shouldn't have to own anything because she cheated. I can see both sides of it though, and I honestly find your situation to be the exception.
> 
> The only thing that really surprised me about this thread was jld's comments. I had no idea she had such gender bias and was so brazen about it.


You are spot on my friend. But I don't think what happened to me was all that unusual. I would say 25 to maybe even 50% of affairs occur somewhat suddenly. I would consider mine in this category even though start to finish was around a month. But some people here want to think their was is the only way so here we are hundreds of pages later lol. 

Certainly some marriages can break down slowly over time and then the escape affairs happen. I've always saw that point of view but those who believe that is the ONLY way they occur are naive. 

They can happen suddenly in a one night drunken BNO that got out of control or a slow burn like what happend to the other poster here. Only sure fire thing is the affair choice and action is on the cheater. How it got to that point varies.


----------



## FalconKing

Does anyone remember tears? She raved about her husband and she cheated on him. She was very sweet and had an innocence to her. Perhaps that innocence lead to her letting her guard down and allowing herself to be susceptible to the OM. I think someone could be like that, and if they avoid certain situations could never know themselves well enough to even know they have that problem. But that person could still have a wonderful marriage. IMO. So I guess what I am saying I can imagine situations where someone cheats despite having a great marriage, and it's all on them.


----------



## Wolf1974

FalconKing said:


> Does anyone remember tears? She raved about her husband and she cheated on him. She was very sweet and had an innocence to her. Perhaps that innocence lead to her letting her guard down and allowing herself to be susceptible to the OM. I think someone could be like that, and if they avoid certain situations could never know themselves well enough to even know they have that problem. But that person could still have a wonderful marriage. IMO. So I guess what I am saying I can imagine situations where someone cheats despite having a great marriage, and it's all on them.


I honestly think people get in a routine. Life settles and then someone new puts some new attention on you and bam you get caught up In the excitement of it. Then the aftermath is you wonder what you have done to your life.

This thread I just read the OPs story about how she got caught up and wrecked her life and woke up all too late. Like I said I think this type of thing is very common

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/66063-before-you-decide-leave-read-my-story.html


----------



## Thundarr

FalconKing said:


> Does anyone remember tears? She raved about her husband and she cheated on him. She was very sweet and had an innocence to her. Perhaps that innocence lead to her letting her guard down and allowing herself to be susceptible to the OM. I think someone could be like that, and if they avoid certain situations could never know themselves well enough to even know they have that problem. But that person could still have a wonderful marriage. IMO. So I guess what I am saying I can imagine situations where someone cheats despite having a great marriage, and it's all on them.


Yea I remember. It was a conflicting thread as she seemed to sincere but at the same time I really respected her husband's stance. He had zero tolerance for infidelity. I'm not saying he was right but just saying that he stuck to his principles. 

Avoiding temptation has been one of my core principles for as long as I remember. To me it's just common sense but then again, I've learned some things the hard way that other found to be common sense.


----------



## Rookie4

FalconKing said:


> Does anyone remember tears? She raved about her husband and she cheated on him. She was very sweet and had an innocence to her. Perhaps that innocence lead to her letting her guard down and allowing herself to be susceptible to the OM. I think someone could be like that, and if they avoid certain situations could never know themselves well enough to even know they have that problem. But that person could still have a wonderful marriage. IMO. So I guess what I am saying I can imagine situations where someone cheats despite having a great marriage, and it's all on them.


Funny that. Posters say that they had good marriages, and in the same post enumerate areas where it was not so good. Who's trying to fool who? If you have a mutually satisfying marriage, infidelity is very unlikely to occur, and all of these would-be scenerios are merely excuses.
Face it. No BS wants to admit that they might have contributed to the WS's, pre-affair, state of mind. It's easier to play the blame game, instead of a little positive introspection. Blame all of it on the WS or the Devil or chance or anything else, but NEVER admit that you as the BS might have a few flaws , yourself. The decision to cheat was the WS's , but in many cases, the accessory before the fact, is the BS.


----------



## Rookie4

I, for one, admit freely that I was NOT a perfect husband, and did contribute to my ex wife's state of mind, before the affair.


----------



## FalconKing

Rookie4 said:


> Funny that. Posters say that they had good marriages, and in the same post enumerate areas where it was not so good. Who's trying to fool who? If you have a mutually satisfying marriage, infidelity is very unlikely to occur, and all of these would-be scenerios are merely excuses.
> 
> Face it. No BS wants to admit that they might have contributed to the WS's, pre-affair, state of mind. It's easier to play the blame game, instead of a little positive introspection. Blame all of it on the WS or the Devil or chance or anything else, but NEVER admit that you as the BS might have a few flaws , yourself. The decision to cheat was the WS's , but in many cases, the accessory before the fact, is the BS.



I think it can be taken case by case. Please don't use my post to insight people. I read most of this thread and you did become vocal about the mess it had become. And then you post this? To whom? I really thought the chaos was dying down. You don't want that?


----------



## Thundarr

Rookie4 said:


> Funny that. Posters say that they had good marriages, and in the same post enumerate areas where it was not so good. Who's trying to fool who? *If you have a mutually satisfying marriage, infidelity is very unlikely to occur*, and all of these would-be scenerios are merely excuses.


This excuse is getting old Rookie. Happiness and satisfaction don't equal perfection and a spouse should not take on too much of the lifting in a relationship just because the other isn't happy. Happiness and contentment are responsibilities of each person. For that matter, a huge portion of unhappy marriages are due to one spouse laying their 'happiness' on the other. When everything is new, their partner is awesome. When time passes and things settle down then they wrongly think their spouse isn't doing something right else they'd still be happy. Then they meet someone new to makes them happy again and poof; an affair.

That's just naive. A smart person with character can never have two affairs. And smart people who have had an affair and are truly reconciling would think you don't get it. They're right because you don't.


----------



## Served Cold

Rookie4 said:


> Funny that. Posters say that they had good marriages, and in the same post enumerate areas where it was not so good. Who's trying to fool who? If you have a mutually satisfying marriage, infidelity is very unlikely to occur, and all of these would-be scenerios are merely excuses.
> Face it. No BS wants to admit that they might have contributed to the WS's, pre-affair, state of mind. It's easier to play the blame game, instead of a little positive introspection. Blame all of it on the WS or the Devil or chance or anything else, but NEVER admit that you as the BS might have a few flaws , yourself. The decision to cheat was the WS's , but in many cases, the accessory before the fact, is the BS.



I'm the first to admit I'm not perfect. I work hard at being authentic...to myself and to others. I find it insulting that cheater apologists go for the throat of a betrayed spouse and insinuate that being cheated on, is partially their fault.

There are no saints, whether it's the betrayed spouse or the wayward spouse. This isn't some pissing contest. I'm sure on either side there are valid grievances. 

Defending cheating cheapens real problems. No marriage, or relationship is smooth sailing at all times. That's life...

Instead of bickering over reasons to cheat, how about working through difficulties with the best interest in mind. How does cheating solve anything....it's like pouring gasoline on dry grass and lighting a match.

Seriously, life is hard enough. There are real problems in this world. Instead of defending cheating, how about defending poverty or volunteering in your community.

Smh


----------



## Openminded

ScarletBegonias said:


> He has rationalized it by saying my heart wasn't involved and I was just getting my superficial confidence boosted. It's true my heart wasn't in it at all but it doesn't make it any better.


I'm sorry, SB. I glanced briefly at your last thread before you left and felt it might be something like this. 

It's obvious from your past posts that you love your husband very much and he loves you just as much. 

You and he can get through this. Truly.


----------



## Rookie4

Thundarr said:


> This excuse is getting old Rookie. Happiness and satisfaction don't equal perfection and a spouse should not take on too much of the lifting in a relationship just because the other isn't happy. Happiness and contentment are responsibilities of each person. For that matter, a huge portion of unhappy marriages are due to one spouse laying their 'happiness' on the other. When everything is new, their partner is awesome. When time passes and things settle down then they wrongly think their spouse isn't doing something right else they'd still be happy. Then they meet someone new to makes them happy again and poof; an affair.
> 
> That's just naive. A smart person with character can never have two affairs. And smart people who have had an affair and are truly reconciling would think you don't get it. They're right because you don't.


What part of MUTUALLY SATISFYING, do you not understand? It means that Both parties are satisfied, just like it says. Then you go off on a tangent about one or the other not being satisfied. You can disagree with what I say, as you like. But, disagree with what I say, don't make it up yourself.


----------



## Rookie4

Served Cold said:


> I'm the first to admit I'm not perfect. I work hard at being authentic...to myself and to others. I find it insulting that cheater apologists go for the throat of a betrayed spouse and insinuate that being cheated on, is partially their fault.
> 
> There are no saints, whether it's the betrayed spouse or the wayward spouse. This isn't some pissing contest. I'm sure on either side there are valid grievances.
> 
> Defending cheating cheapens real problems. No marriage, or relationship is smooth sailing at all times. That's life...
> 
> Instead of bickering over reasons to cheat, how about working through difficulties with the best interest in mind. How does cheating solve anything....it's like pouring gasoline on dry grass and lighting a match.
> 
> Seriously, life is hard enough. There are real problems in this world. Instead of defending cheating, how about defending poverty or volunteering in your community.
> 
> Smh


Who is defending cheating? Certainly not me. I am insisting on fair play and courtesy, do you disagree with that?
Many posters insist on the WS accept responsibility for their actions, and they are quite right to do so. So it follows that the BS accept responsibility for their actions as well. What is fair for one is fair for the other. Do you not believe in fair play?


----------



## FalconKing

Rookie4 said:


> What part of MUTUALLY SATISFYING, do you not understand? It means that Both parties are satisfied, just like it says. Then you go off on a tangent about one or the other not being satisfied. You can disagree with what I say, as you like. But, disagree with what I say, don't make it up yourself.



The tangent I see is you being insistent on keeping this going. It really seems like now you are just arguing just for the sake of arguing.


----------



## Rookie4

FalconKing said:


> The tangent I see is you being insistent on keeping this going. It really seems like now you are just arguing just for the sake of arguing.


Of course, you are perfectly free to believe that way, and good luck to you. If you want to discuss my post, as it was written by me, I'm always willing to oblige. If you want to change it to suit your preconceived ideas, then you will have to find somebody else.


----------



## Rookie4

Served Cold said:


> I'm the first to admit I'm not perfect. I work hard at being authentic...to myself and to others. I find it insulting that cheater apologists go for the throat of a betrayed spouse and insinuate that being cheated on, is partially their fault.
> 
> There are no saints, whether it's the betrayed spouse or the wayward spouse. This isn't some pissing contest. I'm sure on either side there are valid grievances.
> 
> Defending cheating cheapens real problems. No marriage, or relationship is smooth sailing at all times. That's life...
> 
> Instead of bickering over reasons to cheat, how about working through difficulties with the best interest in mind. How does cheating solve anything....it's like pouring gasoline on dry grass and lighting a match.
> 
> Seriously, life is hard enough. There are real problems in this world. Instead of defending cheating, how about defending poverty or volunteering in your community.
> 
> Smh


I agree completely with your second paragraph. There are valid issues on both sides. All I ask is that BOTH sides get to express their opinions without fear or abuse.


----------



## Rookie4

Openminded said:


> I'm sorry, SB. I glanced briefly at your last thread before you left and felt it might be something like this.
> 
> It's obvious from your past posts that you love your husband very much and he loves you just as much.
> 
> You and he can get through this. Truly.


If you will go to the "reconciliation" thread, SB, you will find a lot of support for both you and your husband. Most of the posters there, BS and WS alike, will do their best to help you over the rough spots. Most of them are good people.


----------



## Served Cold

Rookie4 said:


> Who is defending cheating? Certainly not me. I am insisting on fair play and courtesy, do you disagree with that?
> Many posters insist on the WS accept responsibility for their actions, and they are quite right to do so. So it follows that the BS accept responsibility for their actions as well. What is fair for one is fair for the other. Do you not believe in fair play?


Can you elaborate on exactly how a betrayed spouse is complicit on being cheated on rather than being served with divorce papers.


----------



## Rookie4

Served Cold said:


> Can you elaborate on exactly how a betrayed spouse is complicit on being cheated on rather than being served with divorce papers.


No, because I never said that the BS was complicit in the decision of the WS to cheat.


----------



## FalconKing

Rookie4 said:


> Of course, you are perfectly free to believe that way, and good luck to you. If you want to discuss my post, as it was written by me, I'm always willing to oblige. If you want to change it to suit your preconceived ideas, then you will have to find somebody else.



You've said that a few times in this thread. What is that some kind of auto-response? 
Why didn't you just go with the classics "I know you are but what I am I!" Or how you are rubber and I'm glue..etc..etc.

And I can't find anybody else because you are the only one fanning flames. People get married everyday. I believe there are enough people getting married to logically come to the conclusion that sometimes affairs happen with no fault of the other person in the marriage. Sometimes marriages are very toxic and sometimes people are just oblivious. And maybe there are people here who want to take blame for being in a bad marriage. But I don't think every single person that has been cheated on was contributing to a terrible marriage. And I do believe some of the people that post here may have been in a marriage where they felt things were fine and they and their spouses needs were met. And if their ex was here they may say the same. So why do you need this? Some people agreed with you and some didn't. But it seemed like it ended respectfully. Nobody was challenging you on anything. And then you swoop in rehashing your stance and for who's benefit? Saying how you are willing to admit you could have done better. That doesn't make you special. Whether you say that or not doesn't make people applaud you. That's only for your benefit.

What is it that you want? You said before you didn't want the thread to become this and look at you. That above post was just to get arouse out of people. If not, then what was your motivation if no one was no longer debating you?


----------



## Served Cold

Rookie4 said:


> I agree completely with your second paragraph. There are valid issues on both sides. All I ask is that BOTH sides get to express their opinions without fear or abuse.



I believe infidelity is abuse. It's abuse of trust and denying someone their own reality. 

If someone chooses to cheat rather than choose to divorce this is indicative that the marriage is still not that bad or they cannot leave it without a back up in the wings. 

Cheating is a character flaw. 

Everyday people break up. Many relationships fail. That's life.

So if a spouse didn't cheat but took up gambling or drinking is their spouse's imperfections partially to blame for this?

I didn't argue that relationships have ups and downs and there is fault on either side. But to insinuate that being cheated on is in any way justified is ridiculous.


----------



## Rookie4

FalconKing said:


> You've said that a few times in this thread. What is that some kind of auto-response?
> Why didn't you just go with the classics "I know you are but what I am I!" Or how you are rubber and I'm glue..etc..etc.
> 
> And I can't find anybody else because you are the only one fanning flames. People get married everyday. I believe there are enough people getting married to logically come to the conclusion that sometimes affairs happen with no fault of the other person in the marriage. Sometimes marriages are very toxic and sometimes people are just oblivious. And maybe there are people here who want to take blame for being in a bad marriage. But I don't think every single person that has been cheated on was contributing to a terrible marriage. And I do believe some of the people that post here may have been in a marriage where they felt things were fine and they and their spouses needs were met. And if their ex was here they may say the same. So why do you need this? Some people agreed with you and some didn't. But it seemed like it ended respectfully. Nobody was challenging you on anything. And then you swoop in rehashing your stance and for who's benefit? Saying how you are willing to admit you could have done better. That doesn't make you special. Whether you say that or not doesn't make people applaud you. That's only for your benefit.
> 
> What is it that you want? You said before you didn't want the thread to become this and look at you. That above post was just to get arouse out of people. If not, then what was your motivation if no one was no longer debating you?


 Who is arguing, you or me? If you want to believe it, OK go ahead. You are the only one keeping this going. do what you want and believe what you want . I don't care .


----------



## Wolf1974

FalconKing said:


> The tangent I see is you being insistent on keeping this going. It really seems like now you are just arguing just for the sake of arguing.


That has been his agenda all along. He states in the beginning about wanting a thread for WS and open communication, which initially I believed, but he has proven time and time again that it is his way or the highway. Instead of listening to other viewpoints he tells people to get out and then "jokingly" hurls insults. 

Not hard to see why he doesn't believe in accountability when his standard is the only standard


----------



## Rookie4

Served Cold said:


> I believe infidelity is abuse. It's abuse of trust and denying someone their own reality.
> 
> If someone chooses to cheat rather than choose to divorce this is indicative that the marriage is still not that bad or they cannot leave it without a back up in the wings.
> 
> Cheating is a character flaw.
> 
> Everyday people break up. Many relationships fail. That's life.
> 
> So if a spouse didn't cheat but took up gambling or drinking is their spouse's imperfections partially to blame for this?
> 
> I didn't argue that relationships have ups and downs and there is fault on either side. But to insinuate that being cheated on is in any way justified is ridiculous.


I never said it was. You are right, cheating is a form of abuse. But that isn't what this thread is about. You know, just once, I would like if somebody would ASK me what my opinion of cheating is, instead of TELLING me what THEY think my opinion is. I don't object to ANYONE disagreeing with me, I object to having words put in my mouth that I did not say.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> That has been his agenda all along. He states in the beginning about wanting a thread for WS and open communication, which initially I believed, but he has proven time and time again that it is his way or the highway. Instead of listening to other viewpoints he tells people to get out and then "jokingly" hurls insults.
> 
> Not hard to see why he doesn't believe in accountability when his standard is the only standard


My standard is fair play and courtesy. Argue with that.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> My standard is fair play and courtesy. Argue with that.


You haven't done either so what is their to argue Rookie?


----------



## Served Cold

Rookie4 said:


> I never said it was. You are right, cheating is a form of abuse. But that isn't what this thread is about. You know, just once, I would like if somebody would ASK me what my opinion of cheating is, instead of TELLING me what THEY think my opinion is. I don't object to ANYONE disagreeing with me, I object to having words put in my mouth that I did not say.


I divorced my wife because she cheated on me. I knew myself too well, that I could never get over that.

I don't hate her, I hate what she did. Does she deserve to be condemned for life....NOT AT ALL. I hope she finds happiness...but it won't be with me.

I hope she doesn't end up being cheated on, I hope she grows and finds peace. 

life goes on.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> That has been his agenda all along. He states in the beginning about wanting a thread for WS and open communication, which initially I believed, but he has proven time and time again that it is his way or the highway. Instead of listening to other viewpoints he tells people to get out and then "jokingly" hurls insults.
> 
> Not hard to see why he doesn't believe in accountability when his standard is the only standard


This is YOUR post, right? Where did I ever say " it's my way or the Highway." Prove it. You say I insulted somebody. Prove it. You say that I said that my standard is the only standard. Prove it. You can't.


----------



## Rookie4

Served Cold said:


> I divorced my wife because she cheated on me. I knew myself too well, that I could never get over that.
> 
> I don't hate her, I hate what she did. Does she deserve to be condemned for life....NOT AT ALL. I hope she finds happiness...but it won't be with me.
> 
> I hope she doesn't end up being cheated on, I hope she grows and finds peace.
> 
> life goes on.


This is almost exactly what happened with me. I kicked her out and divorced her as fast as I could. I knew myself enough to know that we would never be able to be married , after her affair. The difference is that 2 1/2 years after our divorce, we tried to reconcile, after she had done a huge amount of work on her issues. But try as I could, I could not regain the "spark' we once had, because I had found somebody else. . So, in a sense, our reconciliation became a friendship.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> This is NOT the thread for this. Start one of your own and we will visit and discus it.





Rookie4 said:


> bigtone128 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you cannot contribute to this thread, as it was intended to be, you should probably go elsewhere. More posts like this and they will be reported.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rookie4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with this most emphatically. Are the only WS's who are welcome here , the ones who have got their **** together, and say what everybody else wants to hear? If a wayward is unapologetic, is he/she to be cast into the outer darkness? Who needs help more, the WS who has already progressed, or the ones who still have issues?
> This thread is an attempt to welcome ALL WS's, even those who do not conform to our preconceived ideas of proper post affair behavior.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rookie4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then , by all means , use the ignore feature, or simply go elsewhere. Is the only reason you posted, to be offensive? Do you have anything positive to contribute, or do you just want to get your dig in?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rookie4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is YOUR post, right? Where did I ever say " it's my way or the Highway." Prove it. You say I insulted somebody. Prove it. You say that I said that my standard is the only standard. Prove it. You can't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> :sleeping:
Click to expand...


----------



## FalconKing

Rookie4 said:


> Funny that. Posters say that they had good marriages, and in the same post enumerate areas where it was not so good. Who's trying to fool who? If you have a mutually satisfying marriage, infidelity is very unlikely to occur, and all of these would-be scenerios are merely excuses.
> 
> Face it. No BS wants to admit that they might have contributed to the WS's, pre-affair, state of mind. It's easier to play the blame game, instead of a little positive introspection. Blame all of it on the WS or the Devil or chance or anything else, but NEVER admit that you as the BS might have a few flaws , yourself. The decision to cheat was the WS's , but in many cases, the accessory before the fact, is the BS.






Rookie4 said:


> Who is arguing, you or me? If you want to believe it, OK go ahead. You are the only one keeping this going. do what you want and believe what you want . I don't care .





Rookie4 said:


> This is YOUR post, right? Where did I ever say " it's my way or the Highway." Prove it. You say I insulted somebody. Prove it. You say that I said that my standard is the only standard. Prove it. You can't.





You are right. You have grown a lot since your bad marriage. I can tell by how well you communicate. You never post things just get a reaction out of people. And if you did, I know that you would be man enough to admit you were doing that. I would also like to commend you on how you don't feel the need to prove a point when nobody is talking to you. And it seems reasonable that you don't expect other BS to be like you. Respect brother.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Rookie4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> :sleeping:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever, Dude. You proved nothing , except you don't like my posts. OK duly noted.
Click to expand...


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Then , by all means , start a thread about children and affairs. This thread is NOT about kids and affairs. How many times do I have to say it? What I'm going to do is start reporting posts that have nothing to do with the original topic. I think I've been pretty clear about it.





Rookie4 said:


> I'm a BS, myself, so there goes your main b*tch about that. Look, I originated the thread and I have stated what it is about. Don't try to shift the point to suit you.





Rookie4 said:


> No, what I am saying is to grind your axes , elsewhere.
> I started the thread and some posters don't like it, so are doing their best to derail it by snide and nasty comments about me and my original idea. Which simply proves what I was refering to in the original post. Coincidentally, these are the same types of posters who will bash a WS .





Rookie4 said:


> I'm projecting on my own post? How is that even possible? Dude, you really need to get a grip.





Rookie4 said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever, Dude. You proved nothing , except you don't like my posts. OK duly noted.
Click to expand...


----------



## Rookie4

FalconKing said:


> You are right. You have grown a lot since your bad marriage. I can tell by how well you communicate. You never post things just get a reaction out of people. And if you did, I know that you would be man enough to admit you were doing that. I would also like to commend you on how you don't feel the need to prove a point when nobody is talking to you. And it seems reasonable that you don't expect other BS to be like you. Respect brother.


 Look at your last two posts and look at mine. Who is doing the arguing?


----------



## Served Cold

Rookie4 said:


> This is almost exactly what happened with me. I kicked her out and divorced her as fast as I could. I knew myself enough to know that we would never be able to be married , after her affair. The difference is that 2 1/2 years after our divorce, we tried to reconcile, after she had done a huge amount of work on her issues. But try as I could, I could not regain the "spark' we once had, because I had found somebody else. . So, in a sense, our reconciliation became a friendship.



I get the impression you feel guilt in someway. It's ok to to say cheating is wrong and you really had no blame in it.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever, Dude. You proved nothing , except you don't like my posts. OK duly noted.
> 
> 
> 
> No you asked for proof that you asked people to leave your thread who didn't want to follow your format. It wasn't hard to find. Was about every other post in the earlier pages
Click to expand...


----------



## Wolf1974

In so far as the insult thing you say now it was just a joke calling people who again disagreed with you poophead. Well can't refute a like week later statement it was a joke


Dunno as seems to me you demand respect but give none yourself.


----------



## Rookie4

Served Cold said:


> I get the impression you feel guilt in someway. It's ok to to say cheating is wrong and you really had no blame in it.


Absolutely, I feel guilt. For the way I treated my marriage and for neglecting to work on it as much as I should have. I feel bad that what was once a good marriage became a bad dream, and I admit my part in making it so. I feel no guilt whatsoever for my wife's cheating, BUT I will not blame her for every marital issue, nor do I think that because she cheated, that lets me off the hook for my mistakes as a husband.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> In so far as the insult thing you say now it was just a joke calling people who again disagreed with you poophead. Well can't refute a like week later statement it was a joke
> 
> 
> Dunno as seems to me you demand respect but give none yourself.


OK, who did I call a poophead? If that is such a great insult, who did I insult? Did I call you that? Did I call ANYBODY that? Nope. And do you even know what a poophead is? it's what my youngest daughter called her sister during an argument. I thought it was funny , and still do. Sorry if you don't.


----------



## Served Cold

Rookie4 said:


> Absolutely, I feel guilt. For the way I treated my marriage and for neglecting to work on it as much as I should have. I feel bad that what was once a good marriage became a bad dream, and I admit my part in making it so. I feel no guilt whatsoever for my wife's cheating, BUT I will not blame her for every marital issue, nor do I think that because she cheated, that lets me off the hook for my mistakes as a husband.


She crashed your marriage. Every wife or husband makes mistakes. Stop drinking the kool aid. 

I, and many here don't drink kool aid....if you want to drink it, go ahead, but don't get pissed off we ain't drinking it too.

relax buddy


----------



## heartsbeating

Wolf1974 said:


> I'm glad you came here Scarlet. You have illustrated to many wayward that accepting responsibility for your mistake is the only way to forgiveness. I'm sure in many ways that your marriage may be stronger for this, if for no other reason that you learned to have stronger boundaries with men to prevent this from happening again.
> 
> It's sounds like your husband has forgiven you. I think you should forgive your shortcomings that caused this as they have been fixed. I would also offer don't concentrate on the past and beat yourself up. Your husband gave you a wonderful gift of forgiveness and he made a choice to stay with you.
> 
> Every single day prove to him that was the right choice.


One of the few times I've ventured to this side of the forum and saw Scarlet's post. Absolutely agree with Wolf's sentiment. Scarlet, I do hope you can forgive yourself and learn from it. Beating yourself up and remaining in the past won't help your marriage to progress. That is what you owe your marriage now - to stay engaged and work on yourself/relationship.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> OK, who did I call a poophead? If that is such a great insult, who did I insult? Did I call you that? Did I call ANYBODY that? Nope. And do you even know what a poophead is? it's what my youngest daughter called her sister during an argument. I thought it was funny , and still do. Sorry if you don't.


Seriously. This is what you would want to clear up. A insult that you said you meant as a joke and then I said ok if you meant it as a joke fine? This?

Not that more than one poster thinks you treat anyone who disagrees with you disrespectfully? 

Ok then


----------



## Wolf1974

heartsbeating said:


> One of the few times I've ventured to this side of the forum and saw Scarlet's post. Absolutely agree with Wolf's sentiment. Scarlet, I do hope you can forgive yourself and learn from it. Beating yourself up and remaining in the past won't help your marriage to progress. That is what you owe your marriage now - to stay engaged and work on yourself/relationship.


Hope she is talking to someone sounded in rough shape earlier.


----------



## EI

Being a former WS, I have been on the receiving end of my share of **** on TAM. To be fair, I give back as good as I get, so I'm not asking for a break. The only thing that disturbs me more than having cruel, and often inaccurate, assumptions made about me, is seeing BS's turning on each other. 

Can you guys please stop it with the_ "He called me a "poopy head."_ _"No, I didn't."__ "Yes, you did."_ _"Well, you said it first._" _"Prove it."_ * M-O-O-O-O-M!*

I am a mother of five and a grandmother of 1. I come here to escape and to find some peace. This is starting to sound too much like home! 

There are WS's to be bashed. Can you BS's NOT bash one another? You all know that it is highly unlikely that anyone here is ever really going to change anyone else's opinion regarding certain issues, right? And, if you ever were to be successful, it wouldn't be because a fairly serious thread had descended into a melee of childish name calling. It would occur within a respectful exchange of honest dialog. There has been some decent dialog in this thread. I think it would be beneficial for everyone if you could get back to that. FWIW, coming from a former WS.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *Originally Posted by ScarletBegonias*
> 
> I hurt the only person,other than my child,that I love.Absolutely I'm depressed.Beyond depressed.I quit tam for about a month but after talking to my doc about it,she decided it would be good for me to talk about it here when I was ready.
> I feel we do belong together but I am not worthy of him so I wonder why he stays.He feels responsible for things and that's even harder to deal with bc I don't want him to feel responsible at all.It wasn't his choice to have me do what I did.He's so worried about my emotional stability at this point and it sucks bc he shouldn't have to worry at all after what I put him through.I want him to be angry bc I deserve it. I want him to punish me because I deserve it. I don't know how else to describe the feelings. I'm just lost and completely undeserving of kindness.Sort of spiraling I guess.
> 
> 
> *By Rookie*
> You are getting counseling.. that is good. *You are remorseful......that is good too (up to a point), *you recognize what happened and accept responsibility... that is good as well. See, you are doing LOTS of good things, therefore you are a good person. Now all you need is time to heal.
> Think of it this way. Your husband loves you enough to reconcile.... right? If you were not worthy, then you wouldn't be having this opportunity. Think positive and look to a better future. Consign the past to the past.


*The above is what I think this thread is about. A lurking wayward is brave enough to post here and Rookie (a BS) has given her a response that could help*.



ScarletBegonias,
Your attitude towards your husband is GREAT, your remorsefulness is GREAT (Up to a point), but your self worth and forgiveness of your self is not great.


Another lurking wayward (Wayword) ask about resources to help her with her insecurities on this thread. I gave a few (see post 1757) which included the link to the Mayo Clinic; see below
Self-esteem: Take steps to feel better about yourself - Mayo Clinic



In addition I started a thread titled; the link is below:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/208954-forgiving-yourself.html

*SB, I hope that you can get some help with these links above.*



To 90% of the posters on this thread:

I am amazed that the OP has made it very clear what this thread is about yet it has around 90% posts that do not address the intent of this thread. We have had several lurking waywards post on here and yet 90% of the posts are not addressing them and many are just debating each other’s posts that do not include the lurking waywards that have posted on this thread.


This s a hot thread and is getting more than 100 posts a day (over 1900 to date) so I guess that the responding 90% like bebating other issues tha are not directed to the lurking waywards. 

I am not saying that the 90% of the posts are not informative and interesting I am just saying that 90% of the posts do not involve the intended people, lurking waywards.
There are some interesting posts but they are off topic and should have a thread of their own.

If you think that my 90% is wrong then I challenge you to find me 190 posts (10%) that address the lurking waywards.


----------



## WyshIknew

EI said:


> Being a former WS, I have been on the receiving end of my share of **** on TAM. To be fair, I give back as good as I get, so I'm not asking for a break. The only thing that disturbs me more than having cruel, and often inaccurate, assumptions made about me, is seeing BS's turning on each other.
> 
> Can you guys please stop it with the_ "He called me a "poopy head."_ _"No, I didn't."__ "Yes, you did."_ _"Well, you said it first._" _"Prove it."_ * M-O-O-O-O-M!*
> 
> I am a mother of five and a grandmother of 1. I come here to escape and to find some peace. This is starting to sound too much like home!
> 
> There are WS's to be bashed. Can you BS's NOT bash one another? You all know that it is highly unlikely that anyone here is ever really going to change anyone else's opinion regarding certain issues, right? And, if you ever were to be successful, it wouldn't be because a fairly serious thread had descended into a melee of childish name calling. It would occur within a respectful exchange of honest dialog. There has been some decent dialog in this thread. I think it would be beneficial for everyone if you could get back to that. FWIW, coming from a former WS.


Totally agree!


----------



## Rookie4

Served Cold said:


> She crashed your marriage. Every wife or husband makes mistakes. Stop drinking the kool aid.
> 
> I, and many here don't drink kool aid....if you want to drink it, go ahead, but don't get pissed off we ain't drinking it too.
> 
> relax buddy


Doesn't really bother me now. It's ancient history. But it illustrates the mindset of some posters, who think that their partners cheating absolves them of any responsibility.


----------



## Rookie4

I agree and think that the thread has been jacked enough. I am as much to blame as any poster for allowing it to happen. It's tough being attacked by a mob, without fighting back , but I will do better in the future.


----------



## Rookie4

From now on, any post that is off topic will automatically be reported. I will NOT respond to personal attacks nor allow posters to attack each other.


----------



## changedbeliefs

Wolf1974 said:


> A 100% Blame for a bad marriage or 100%
> Blame for the act of cheating?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They have 100% of the blame for the actual affair, yes, but the best I can articulate what I see as "over-blaming" the WS is: they seem to be taxes with 100% repairing the (usually bad) marriage. WHATEVER a BS asks of them, they should do. God forbid they even allude to the BS doing something contributing to the bad marriage, and that the WS is asking them to change. That, right there, is what many on here will JUMP ON, raise their torch and proclaim, "how dare they," that they are justifying their affair.

I will give you an example from my marriage: my wife and I were a "fused" couple. We have been on our own from day 1. No one helped us get our jobs, find our houses, make our moves, or raise our kids. We moved quite a bit, so we never really had a true circle of friends, we were all we had. It became an issue. Our MC said she believed my wife was co-dependent. I am a very independent person, and it was clashing, and a large part of the rationalization in my head for my A was, "screw it, I'm doing my own thing!" The wrong solution, but to a very REAL problem. During the R, I made it clear I would not be relegating myself to a house-arrest schedule, tabs on every single place I went, with every single person I went with, turning my phone in, or sitting down as she read my entire inbox. As I said in another thread here, locking down your spouse like the hired help is ridiculous, IMO. They are either going to change, re-commit, etc..., or they're not. A spouse cannot be a warden, but there is a strong wave of opinion on here that a WS needs to suck up whatever is thrown their way because "it's all their fault."


----------



## Rookie4

Mr Blunt said:


> *The above is what I think this thread is about. A lurking wayward is brave enough to post here and Rookie (a BS) has given her a response that could help*.
> 
> 
> 
> ScarletBegonias,
> Your attitude towards your husband is GREAT, your remorsefulness is GREAT (Up to a point), but your self worth and forgiveness of your self is not great.
> 
> 
> Another lurking wayward (Wayword) ask about resources to help her with her insecurities on this thread. I gave a few (see post 1757) which included the link to the Mayo Clinic; see below
> Self-esteem: Take steps to feel better about yourself - Mayo Clinic
> 
> 
> 
> In addition I started a thread titled; the link is below:
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/208954-forgiving-yourself.html
> 
> *SB, I hope that you can get some help with these links above.*
> 
> 
> 
> To 90% of the posters on this thread:
> 
> I am amazed that the OP has made it very clear what this thread is about yet it has around 90% posts that do not address the intent of this thread. We have had several lurking waywards post on here and yet 90% of the posts are not addressing them and many are just debating each other’s posts that do not include the lurking waywards that have posted on this thread.
> 
> 
> This s a hot thread and is getting more than 100 posts a day (over 1900 to date) so I guess that the responding 90% like bebating other issues tha are not directed to the lurking waywards.
> 
> I am not saying that the 90% of the posts are not informative and interesting I am just saying that 90% of the posts do not involve the intended people, lurking waywards.
> There are some interesting posts but they are off topic and should have a thread of their own.
> 
> If you think that my 90% is wrong then I challenge you to find me 190 posts (10%) that address the lurking waywards.


Blunt is right, SB. There are several FWS's on the reconciliation thread who are having the same feelings as you. Mrs. Mathias, and Mrs. Adams are a couple, off the top of my head. Both experienced tremendous amounts of guilt and learned that dwelling on the affair , at some point, becomes counter productive to reconciliation. You must do your best, with the help of your husband and counselor, to think positive, and improve your self image. Forgiving yourself is tough, but it is very important to your mental health and the success of your reconciliation, that you work on this issue.
This will happen as you read and understand more about the process that lead you to cheat, how to set personal boundaries, having open communication with your husband, and doing the things that BOTH of you enjoy.
Making new and happier memories, to replace the past issues helps immensely. A lot of this you are already doing. I think, and other posters too, that you are one of those who will overcome the affair and have a better future. Good Luck to you. You can PM me anytime if you think I can be of help.


----------



## Regret214

For myself, I saw the hurt I caused Dig was mostly from the lies and deception. Letting him look at my phone if he needed, being accountable for where I was going and who it was with was about transparency. I'm a very independent person. Dig never asked me questions about my whereabouts or anything. Because I took advantage of that, I felt it only right to be transparent. Whenever he asked. It's what he needed and sometimes still does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Doesn't really bother me now. It's ancient history. But it illustrates the mindset of some posters, who think that their partners cheating absolves them of any responsibility.


That's. to what the point is rookie. You are so busy trying to prove your own point that you continually miss everyone else's. 

I realize you won't listen but for others...

If you were in part responsible for your own marriage, great take ownership in that, if you feel that you pushed your wife or husband to cheat, fine than own that. The point is that is what happened in YOUR marriage not everyone else's. Your perspectives are shaped by YOUR experiences just like everyone else's. If you think your own marriage example applies to all the other millions of marriages around the world you are seriously narrow visioned and naive.

My marriage wasn't horrible and seedy and both of us desperately searching for a way out. It was kind and loving a respectful for 8 years. Then she decided she needed some excitement, didn't think she would get caught but did. That's it. And that wasn't my perspective of the situation That's what happened to me and was validated when she told me I was a good husband, great father. And I didn't deserve what she did. All true and actuate points. I don't think this happens in 100% of the cases but it does happen in some.


----------



## Wolf1974

changedbeliefs said:


> They have 100% of the blame for the actual affair, yes, but the best I can articulate what I see as "over-blaming" the WS is: they seem to be taxes with 100% repairing the (usually bad) marriage. WHATEVER a BS asks of them, they should do. God forbid they even allude to the BS doing something contributing to the bad marriage, and that the WS is asking them to change. That, right there, is what many on here will JUMP ON, raise their torch and proclaim, "how dare they," that they are justifying their affair.
> 
> I will give you an example from my marriage: my wife and I were a "fused" couple. We have been on our own from day 1. No one helped us get our jobs, find our houses, make our moves, or raise our kids. We moved quite a bit, so we never really had a true circle of friends, we were all we had. It became an issue. Our MC said she believed my wife was co-dependent. I am a very independent person, and it was clashing, and a large part of the rationalization in my head for my A was, "screw it, I'm doing my own thing!" The wrong solution, but to a very REAL problem. During the R, I made it clear I would not be relegating myself to a house-arrest schedule, tabs on every single place I went, with every single person I went with, turning my phone in, or sitting down as she read my entire inbox. As I said in another thread here, locking down your spouse like the hired help is ridiculous, IMO. They are either going to change, re-commit, etc..., or they're not. A spouse cannot be a warden, but there is a strong wave of opinion on here that a WS needs to suck up whatever is thrown their way because "it's all their fault."



Ok after the affair the price to stay was her punishment of you and unwilling to look at her own issues in the marriage....not the affair?


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> For myself, I saw the hurt I caused Dig was mostly from the lies and deception. Letting him look at my phone if he needed, being accountable for where I was going and who it was with was about transparency. I'm a very independent person. Dig never asked me questions about my whereabouts or anything. Because I took advantage of that, I felt it only right to be transparent. Whenever he asked. It's what he needed and sometimes still does.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



That's great analysis Regret. Was the same with me. Yes the physical affair was heart wrenching. But what has changed me forever is the lies that were associated with the affair. The lies to me and my kids, the deception of it all. When you know someone from 14 and never think they would do something like that to you and you find out they did.....hard to wrap your head around for sure. I know in my own reflection of the past I wonder much less about the physical acts she did than how she lied looking into my eyes over and over again.


----------



## cpacan

changedbeliefs said:


> They have 100% of the blame for the actual affair, yes, but the best I can articulate what I see as "over-blaming" the WS is: they seem to be taxes with 100% repairing the (usually bad) marriage. WHATEVER a BS asks of them, they should do. God forbid they even allude to the BS doing something contributing to the bad marriage, and that the WS is asking them to change. That, right there, is what many on here will JUMP ON, raise their torch and proclaim, "how dare they," that they are justifying their affair.
> 
> I will give you an example from my marriage: my wife and I were a "fused" couple. We have been on our own from day 1. No one helped us get our jobs, find our houses, make our moves, or raise our kids. We moved quite a bit, so we never really had a true circle of friends, we were all we had. It became an issue. Our MC said she believed my wife was co-dependent. I am a very independent person, and it was clashing, and a large part of the rationalization in my head for my A was, "screw it, I'm doing my own thing!" The wrong solution, but to a very REAL problem. During the R, I made it clear I would not be relegating myself to a house-arrest schedule, tabs on every single place I went, with every single person I went with, turning my phone in, or sitting down as she read my entire inbox. As I said in another thread here, locking down your spouse like the hired help is ridiculous, IMO. They are either going to change, re-commit, etc..., or they're not. A spouse cannot be a warden, but there is a strong wave of opinion on here that a WS needs to suck up whatever is thrown their way because "it's all their fault."


Good post. I read it as if you know very well that the decision to do your own thing was on you. I think you exaggerate when you say that TAM'ers usually are "over-blaming" - the thing is, it usually doesn't come across as you describe it. Own your own thing and do something to fix it, for me, that's all that counts.

I would like to ask you a question. How do you expect your wife to feel safe with you, if you won't agree to any degree of transparancy?


----------



## Regret214

Rookie, you have a good heart, however I think offering to PM Scarlet at this point is the opposite of what she needs considering that's where it appears her troubles began.

I could be completely wrong, but I just wanted to point out that even with good intentions...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

changedbeliefs said:


> They have 100% of the blame for the actual affair, yes, but the best I can articulate what I see as "over-blaming" the WS is: they seem to be taxes with 100% repairing the (usually bad) marriage. WHATEVER a BS asks of them, they should do. God forbid they even allude to the BS doing something contributing to the bad marriage, and that the WS is asking them to change. That, right there, is what many on here will JUMP ON, raise their torch and proclaim, "how dare they," that they are justifying their affair.
> 
> I will give you an example from my marriage: my wife and I were a "fused" couple. We have been on our own from day 1. No one helped us get our jobs, find our houses, make our moves, or raise our kids. We moved quite a bit, so we never really had a true circle of friends, we were all we had. It became an issue. Our MC said she believed my wife was co-dependent. I am a very independent person, and it was clashing, and a large part of the rationalization in my head for my A was, "screw it, I'm doing my own thing!" The wrong solution, but to a very REAL problem. During the R, I made it clear I would not be relegating myself to a house-arrest schedule, tabs on every single place I went, with every single person I went with, turning my phone in, or sitting down as she read my entire inbox. As I said in another thread here, locking down your spouse like the hired help is ridiculous, IMO. They are either going to change, re-commit, etc..., or they're not. A spouse cannot be a warden, but there is a strong wave of opinion on here that a WS needs to suck up whatever is thrown their way because "it's all their fault."


Absolutely right. Any discussion of the pre-affair state of the marriage is automatically set upon by some posters , as attempting to justify the affair. But is it? I think that in a lot of cases, it is an attempt to prevent further trouble, if the WS is wanting to reconcile.
I can only relate to my own situation. I did a lot to cause the marriage to fail, by my greed and ambition. The cheating was the final straw, but I firmly believe that our marriage was heading for disaster, and I was too occupied with making money to do any maintenance on my marriage. ( pretty stupid for a former race car driver, right?) Well, I'm rich, but it doesn't make me happy, and never did.
Besides the War, and deaths of family members or friends, the affair was the most horrible thing that has ever happened to me. Yes, the affair was 100% my wife's responsibility, but I take no satisfaction from that. I want to make damn sure that I fix my own issues so that there is NEVER a repeat.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> Blunt is right, SB. There are several FWS's on the reconciliation thread who are having the same feelings as you. Mrs. Mathias, and Mrs. Adams are a couple, off the top of my head. Both experienced tremendous amounts of guilt and learned that dwelling on the affair , at some point, becomes counter productive to reconciliation. You must do your best, with the help of your husband and counselor, to think positive, and improve your self image. Forgiving yourself is tough, but it is very important to your mental health and the success of your reconciliation, that you work on this issue.
> This will happen as you read and understand more about the process that lead you to cheat, how to set personal boundaries, having open communication with your husband, and doing the things that BOTH of you enjoy.
> Making new and happier memories, to replace the past issues helps immensely. A lot of this you are already doing. I think, and other posters too, that you are one of those who will overcome the affair and have a better future. Good Luck to you. You can PM me anytime if you think I can be of help.


I know it's rough on a site like this... and given the current PM things that have come to light with other longstanding members, I would just feel weird, as a fWS, PM'ing with members of the opposite sex, talking about why I did what I did. The intent may simply be just to help, but it can easily change to something else... with just a slight change in words. I don't know about SB, but in talking about things related to EA territory as well as the state of the marriage, PM, especially with someone of the opposite sex, would be furthest from my mind. JMHO.


----------



## Thundarr

Rookie4 said:


> What part of MUTUALLY SATISFYING, do you not understand? It means that Both parties are satisfied, just like it says. Then you go off on a tangent about one or the other not being satisfied. You can disagree with what I say, as you like. But, disagree with what I say, don't make it up yourself.


You're like a rabbit being chased, shifting from side to side. Here's a concept you're missing. Satisfaction comes from within a person therefore other's can only enfluence but not control it. I'm good to my wife but I can't force her to be satisfied or not. She either is or is not and it's completely on her. While not being satisfied can lead to bad places like divorce, it's only an excuse when someone cheats.

In short, saying WSs wouldn't cheat if they were satisfied is short sighted because you've made the assumption that BSs have control of WSs satisfaction. 

Maybe my expectations are higher than yours but my wife does NOT have permission to f*ck someone if she needs a pick-me-up. Sorry but it's a personal boundary. Call me crazy


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> That's. to what the point is rookie. You are so busy trying to prove your own point that you continually miss everyone else's.
> 
> I realize you won't listen but for others...
> 
> If you were in part responsible for your own marriage, great take ownership in that, if you feel that you pushed your wife or husband to cheat, fine than own that. The point is that is what happened in YOUR marriage not everyone else's. Your perspectives are shaped by YOUR experiences just like everyone else's. If you think your own marriage example applies to all the other millions of marriages around the world you are seriously narrow visioned and naive.
> 
> My marriage wasn't horrible and seedy and both of us desperately searching for a way out. It was kind and loving a respectful for 8 years. Then she decided she needed some excitement, didn't think she would get caught but did. That's it. And that wasn't my perspective of the situation That's what happened to me and was validated when she told me I was a good husband, great father. And I didn't deserve what she did. All true and actuate points. I don't think this happens in 100% of the cases but it does happen in some.


Sorry, but I see this as avoiding responsibility. Unless you are the perfect husband, (and I'm guessing you are not) there is Always something you can learn. Plus, I do not for a second, believe the fairytale that cheating can happen in a good marriage. I see this a sticking your head in the sand, and doing nothing to better yourself. Wolf, maybe you were a good husband, IDK, but I was always taught that if something bad happens, look to yourself first, before you blame somebody else. Introspection is not a bad thing.


----------



## Rookie4

Maricha75 said:


> I know it's rough on a site like this... and given the current PM things that have come to light with other longstanding members, I would just feel weird, as a fWS, PM'ing with members of the opposite sex, talking about why I did what I did. The intent may simply be just to help, but it can easily change to something else... with just a slight change in words. I don't know about SB, but in talking about things related to EA territory as well as the state of the marriage, PM, especially with someone of the opposite sex, would be furthest from my mind. JMHO.


Good point, Maricha and Regret. I confess that it didn't occur to me. I , of course , would never want to do anything to cause a poster to trigger or do anything inappropriate.


----------



## Rookie4

Thundarr said:


> You're like a rabbit being chased, shifting from side to side. Here's a concept you're missing. Satisfaction comes from within a person therefore other's can only enfluence but not control it. I'm good to my wife but I can't force her to be satisfied or not. She either is or is not and it's completely on her. While not being satisfied can lead to bad places like divorce, it's only an excuse when someone cheats.
> 
> In short, saying WSs wouldn't cheat if they were satisfied is short sighted because you've made the assumption that BSs have control of WSs satisfaction.
> 
> Maybe my expectations are higher than yours but my wife does NOT have permission to f*ck someone if she needs a pick-me-up. Sorry but it's a personal boundary. Call me crazy


 Soory, Thundarr, I'm done arguing with you. Your post will be reported.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but I see this as avoiding responsibility. Unless you are the perfect husband, (and I'm guessing you are not) there is Always something you can learn. Plus, I do not for a second, believe the fairytale that cheating can happen in a good marriage. I see this a sticking your head in the sand, and doing nothing to better yourself. Wolf, maybe you were a good husband, IDK, but I was always taught that if something bad happens, look to yourself first, before you blame somebody else. Introspection is not a bad thing.


That's cool rookie. You don't have to believe me or my x wife. I was there and lived it. You want to think your experience is the only universal one knock yourself out. Doesn't make any difference to me


----------



## Rookie4

Thundarr said:


> You're like a rabbit being chased, shifting from side to side. Here's a concept you're missing. Satisfaction comes from within a person therefore other's can only enfluence but not control it. I'm good to my wife but I can't force her to be satisfied or not. She either is or is not and it's completely on her. While not being satisfied can lead to bad places like divorce, it's only an excuse when someone cheats.
> 
> In short, saying WSs wouldn't cheat if they were satisfied is short sighted because you've made the assumption that BSs have control of WSs satisfaction.
> 
> Maybe my expectations are higher than yours but my wife does NOT have permission to f*ck someone if she needs a pick-me-up. Sorry but it's a personal boundary. Call me crazy


Sorry, but no more arguing. Stick to the topic.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> That's cool rookie. You don't have to believe me or my x wife. I was there and lived it. You want to think your experience is the only universal one knock yourself out. Doesn't make any difference to me


Same with you, Wolf. No more arguing. Stick to the topic.


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> Rookie, you have a good heart, however I think offering to PM Scarlet at this point is the opposite of what she needs considering that's where it appears her troubles began.
> 
> I could be completely wrong, but I just wanted to point out that even with good intentions...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I saw a post from her yesterday that was very concerning that has since been removed. I don't know if by her or a mod. I was concerned enough to PM her and tell her if she needed someone to talk to I would listen. Like I said the post was....concerning. I hope she is talking to someone.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Same with you, Wolf. No more arguing. Stick to the topic.


Experience with waywards is the topic. Stop your constant derailment of it.


----------



## Rookie4

For those who forgot. the topic is welcoming waywards, providing a safe, fair and courteous place for them to tell their stories and receive help. With understanding , BOTH WS's and BS's can be helped.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Experience with waywards is the topic. Stop your constant derailment of it.


So, you started the thread, did you? You know better than anyone else? Your post will be reported.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> So, you started the thread, did you? You know better than anyone else? Your post will be reported.


Rookie the rest of us are trying to discuss the topic. Your the one going of on tangents I think what regret is talking about is profound.


----------



## Thundarr

Rookie4 said:


> Soory, Thundarr, I'm done arguing with you. Your post will be reported.





Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but no more arguing. Stick to the topic.


Then we agree that your attempt to call out BSs for not keeping their WSs satisfied and therefore causing affairs was uncalled for and blame shifting. Awesome.


----------



## Rookie4

Thundarr said:


> Then we agree that your attempt to call out BSs for not keeping their WSs satisfied and therefore causing affairs was uncalled for and blame shifting. Awesome.


Stick to the topic.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Rookie the rest of us are trying to discuss the topic. Your the one going of on tangents I think what regret is talking about is profound.


Stick to the topic.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Stick to the topic.


We are rookie stop derailing it


----------



## Rookie4

cpacan said:


> Good post. I read it as if you know very well that the decision to do your own thing was on you. I think you exaggerate when you say that TAM'ers usually are "over-blaming" - the thing is, it usually doesn't come across as you describe it. Own your own thing and do something to fix it, for me, that's all that counts.
> 
> I would like to ask you a question. How do you expect your wife to feel safe with you, if you won't agree to any degree of transparancy?


I am curious about this , as well. I fully support the idea that you cannot be a prisoner in your own marriage, but what steps are you taking or have taken, to provide your BS with reassurance?


----------



## changedbeliefs

Wolf1974 said:


> Ok after the affair the price to stay was her punishment of you and unwilling to look at her own issues in the marriage....not the affair?


Not sure I follow?



cpacan said:


> How do you expect your wife to feel safe with you, if you won't agree to any degree of transparancy?


I'll say this bluntly, by intention: the same way she did before.


----------



## Thundarr

Rookie4 said:


> Stick to the topic.


You're constant responses to everyone and every differing opinion is keeping us off of topic. You just said that you're not arguing with me anymore. I was looking forward to not having a re-quote.


----------



## Pluto2

ScarletBegonias said:


> I turned off my ability to receive and send PMs this morning.I don't really even want to log in here anymore and only did it with the encouragement of my doc bc I was so hung up that people saw me as a good wife when I'm clearly not.I had to say I'm not.She wants me to move forward even if it's just a small step.
> I had a meltdown yesterday even though life in my house is peaceful and on the mend. I accidentally cut my fingers pulling apart a shaving razor.So that had to be explained which is beyond humiliating. I didn't do anything else w/the razors though so that's one positive mark for my willpower I guess.I don't want to be a walking bpd cliche. hurting myself hurts DH more.hurting myself actually was always a way to make myself feel better and I don't deserve that release.so that would just be another thing I've done wrong to him.I promised him a few years back that I'd never do that stuff again.
> He's so good and pure and every bit of love anyone could ask to have in life. Why wasn't I thinking more about that when I was being a disgusting person? Validation about my looks was worth more than his trust and love at the time?? It's unreal to me now.It makes me want to throw up.Can't imagine how he is so normal and understanding.
> I really have no one except DH,myself,and my doc.I think it's better that way though bc I can't be trusted. I thought I was confident and strong and didn't need validation from Dh but obviously I need it badly or I wouldn't have gotten caught up in receiving it from strangers online. I don't even want to talk about it anymore.I want it to stop weighing on me. I was fine then I wasn't.
> Thank you for the tips and suggestions.
> Peace.


Hi SB,
Glad you posted.
So you are in counseling and at the encouragement of your counselor you are on TAM.
Now I want you to tell me one other thing you are doing for you to help you down the road to healing. Taking a walk, taking a class, reading a book, gardening?


----------



## Wolf1974

ScarletBegonias said:


> I turned off my ability to receive and send PMs this morning.I don't really even want to log in here anymore and only did it with the encouragement of my doc bc I was so hung up that people saw me as a good wife when I'm clearly not.I had to say I'm not.She wants me to move forward even if it's just a small step.
> I had a meltdown yesterday even though life in my house is peaceful and on the mend. I accidentally cut my fingers pulling apart a shaving razor.So that had to be explained which is beyond humiliating. I didn't do anything else w/the razors though so that's one positive mark for my willpower I guess.I don't want to be a walking bpd cliche. hurting myself hurts DH more.hurting myself actually was always a way to make myself feel better and I don't deserve that release.so that would just be another thing I've done wrong to him.I promised him a few years back that I'd never do that stuff again.
> He's so good and pure and every bit of love anyone could ask to have in life. Why wasn't I thinking more about that when I was being a disgusting person? Validation about my looks was worth more than his trust and love at the time?? It's unreal to me now.It makes me want to throw up.Can't imagine how he is so normal and understanding.
> I really have no one except DH,myself,and my doc.I think it's better that way though bc I can't be trusted. I thought I was confident and strong and didn't need validation from Dh but obviously I need it badly or I wouldn't have gotten caught up in receiving it from strangers online. I don't even want to talk about it anymore.I want it to stop weighing on me. I was fine then I wasn't.
> Thank you for the tips and suggestions.
> Peace.


Scarlet I hope you can one day lay your burden down and heal. If things get bad again please consider calling a crisis counselor in your local area. They are located in the yellow pages or just google search them. Sometimes talking to a third party counselor can be helpful because you don't have to give your identity.


----------



## GTdad

ScarletBegonias said:


> I turned off my ability to receive and send PMs this morning.I don't really even want to log in here anymore and only did it with the encouragement of my doc bc I was so hung up that people saw me as a good wife when I'm clearly not.I had to say I'm not.She wants me to move forward even if it's just a small step.
> I had a meltdown yesterday even though life in my house is peaceful and on the mend. I accidentally cut my fingers pulling apart a shaving razor.So that had to be explained which is beyond humiliating. I didn't do anything else w/the razors though so that's one positive mark for my willpower I guess.I don't want to be a walking bpd cliche. hurting myself hurts DH more.hurting myself actually was always a way to make myself feel better and I don't deserve that release.so that would just be another thing I've done wrong to him.I promised him a few years back that I'd never do that stuff again.
> He's so good and pure and every bit of love anyone could ask to have in life. Why wasn't I thinking more about that when I was being a disgusting person? Validation about my looks was worth more than his trust and love at the time?? It's unreal to me now.It makes me want to throw up.Can't imagine how he is so normal and understanding.
> I really have no one except DH,myself,and my doc.I think it's better that way though bc I can't be trusted. I thought I was confident and strong and didn't need validation from Dh but obviously I need it badly or I wouldn't have gotten caught up in receiving it from strangers online. I don't even want to talk about it anymore.I want it to stop weighing on me. I was fine then I wasn't.
> Thank you for the tips and suggestions.
> Peace.


SB, for whatever reason I think we got a bit crossways with each other here in the past, but please know that me and I'm sure a lot of other people are pulling for you and your marriage and wishing you nothing but the best.

Please keep posting.


----------



## Wolf1974

changedbeliefs said:


> Not sure I follow?
> 
> 
> I'll say this bluntly, by intention: the same way she did before.


Sorry I was trying to understand, in your case, did your spouse not accept her part in the bad marriage before or after the affair was discovered? I have never went through reconciliation after an affair and never would so I have no perspective so I guess I'm trying to understand did you discuss what you saw as her faults in the marriage prior to the affair or just after


----------



## Rookie4

ScarletBegonias said:


> I turned off my ability to receive and send PMs this morning.I don't really even want to log in here anymore and only did it with the encouragement of my doc bc I was so hung up that people saw me as a good wife when I'm clearly not.I had to say I'm not.She wants me to move forward even if it's just a small step.
> I had a meltdown yesterday even though life in my house is peaceful and on the mend. I accidentally cut my fingers pulling apart a shaving razor.So that had to be explained which is beyond humiliating. I didn't do anything else w/the razors though so that's one positive mark for my willpower I guess.I don't want to be a walking bpd cliche. hurting myself hurts DH more.hurting myself actually was always a way to make myself feel better and I don't deserve that release.so that would just be another thing I've done wrong to him.I promised him a few years back that I'd never do that stuff again.
> He's so good and pure and every bit of love anyone could ask to have in life. Why wasn't I thinking more about that when I was being a disgusting person? Validation about my looks was worth more than his trust and love at the time?? It's unreal to me now.It makes me want to throw up.Can't imagine how he is so normal and understanding.
> I really have no one except DH,myself,and my doc.I think it's better that way though bc I can't be trusted. I thought I was confident and strong and didn't need validation from Dh but obviously I need it badly or I wouldn't have gotten caught up in receiving it from strangers online. I don't even want to talk about it anymore.I want it to stop weighing on me. I was fine then I wasn't.
> Thank you for the tips and suggestions.
> Peace.


I can see that this site is a trigger for you , so you probably should concentrate on your counseling and your marriage. Please try to feel better about yourself and ALWAYS seek help from trained professionals, for yourself. Good Luck.


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie, don't chase SB away. She is in counseling.


----------



## Rookie4

SB, we are not professionals. We can only give you amateurs advice. TAM can be a good place to rant, but it can also be a trigger. You decide what is best for you, and don't let anyone convince you otherwise. Stay true to yourself, your husband and your counseling.


----------



## Wolf1974

Pluto2 said:


> Rookie, don't chase SB away. She is in counseling.


Agreed. TAM can be a great place to vent if needed.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> For those who forgot. the topic is welcoming waywards, providing a safe, fair and courteous place for them to tell their stories and receive help. With understanding , BOTH WS's *and BS's can be helped*.


Not if there is blameshifting of the infidelity onto the BS.


----------



## Regret214

Guys. Seriously. Almost 2,000 posts in this thread. I would dare say that less than 10% of them are wayward spouses discussing the challenges and issues of infidelity in a supportive fashion.

The other 90% is nothing but arguing why infidelity is bad and who deserves help and who doesn't. A doctor doesn't always tend to healthy patients.

Just stop. Please.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## changedbeliefs

Wolf1974 said:


> Sorry I was trying to understand, in your case, did your spouse not accept her part in the bad marriage before or after the affair was discovered? I have never went through reconciliation after an affair and never would so I have no perspective so I guess I'm trying to understand did you discuss what you saw as her faults in the marriage prior to the affair or just after


She did, but very reluctantly at first. When the one therapist told her she had co-dependency issues, she got very angry, acted like she had just been name-called. It took her a while to figure out, putting me on a 6" leash was not only not going to help the R, but was the cause of a lot of my unrest, and was not healthy for her.

Now, this is where it gets tricky: ok, so her "clinginess," for lack of a clinical word, is a VERY real thing, and is a serious reflection of issues on her part (self-esteem, abandonment fears, e.g.). They starkly conflicted my nature, which is very much NOT clingy, at all. So, in my IC, I learned the "continuum" of: she tries to reach at me, I move away. The harder she reaches, the more I move away. The worst part was, I had no "retreat" of my own; I had lost myself, no hobbies, no outlets, no personal support circle. My withdrawl into the A was the ultimate reaction. It was MY CHOICE to use the A as my withdrawl spot, it could have been into work, or alcohol, or whatever. But when the A was done, to simply act like that was the problem, to purport that there weren't issues on my wife's end to address, that she now had some unilateral power to dictate how the marriage was going to from there, would be foolish.


----------



## vellocet

Regret214 said:


> Guys. Seriously. Almost 2,000 posts in this thread. I would dare say that less than 10% of them are wayward spouses discussing the challenges and issues of infidelity in a supportive fashion.
> 
> The other 90% is nothing but arguing why infidelity is bad and who deserves help and who doesn't. A doctor doesn't always tend to healthy patients.
> 
> Just stop. Please.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Ok then, this is my call to all that share my same views.

BS, I suggest you leave this thread. Let them rake us over the coals all they want, point fingers, whatever. Let them have their justifications and say whatever they want.

I'm out, I suggest those that don't like being blamed for being cheated on do the same.

Done.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



vellocet said:


> Ok then, this is my call to all that share my same views.
> 
> BS, I suggest you leave this thread. Let them rake us over the coals all they want, point fingers, whatever. Let them have their justifications and say whatever they want.
> 
> I'm out, I suggest those that don't like being blamed for being cheated on do the same.
> 
> Done.


But... what about those of us who are both?


----------



## changedbeliefs

vellocet said:


> Not if there is blameshifting of the infidelity onto the BS.


This is exactly one point of my posts here. That's a SUBJECTIVE quality, but too often, BS's drive the bus on this, as "the authority" on what is blameshifting, and they wield that authority with a very wide brush.


----------



## Rookie4

Maricha75 said:


> But... what about those of us who are both?


I guess you have to drop back and punt.


----------



## Maricha75

SB, I think it's a good thing you turned the PM option off. As stated above, it's so easy for PM help to switch to something else, especially if he is a KISA. Major KISA would try to fix it only to find he is talking too much. I think that's how I would describe OM in my case. He wanted to fix me, but I needed to fix myself... and my marriage. My husband could be classified as a KISA as well, I think. You would think my KISA would try to fix me, eh? :rofl:


----------



## Regret214

vellocet said:


> Ok then, this is my call to all that share my same views.
> 
> BS, I suggest you leave this thread. Let them rake us over the coals all they want, point fingers, whatever. Let them have their justifications and say whatever they want.
> 
> I'm out, I suggest those that don't like being blamed for being cheated on do the same.
> 
> Done.


With all due respect, where in this thread has that happened? Can you please quote waywards doing this here. Except for some oddball comments from Zanne, I'm not seeing anyone being "raked over the coals".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> Ok then, this is my call to all that share my same views.
> 
> BS, I suggest you leave this thread. Let them rake us over the coals all they want, point fingers, whatever. Let them have their justifications and say whatever they want.
> 
> I'm out, I suggest those that don't like being blamed for being cheated on do the same.
> 
> Done.


I fully approve and endorse this post.


----------



## changedbeliefs

vellocet said:


> Ok then, this is my call to all that share my same views.
> 
> BS, I suggest you leave this thread. Let them rake us over the coals all they want, point fingers, whatever. Let them have their justifications and say whatever they want.
> 
> I'm out, I suggest those that don't like being blamed for being cheated on do the same.
> 
> Done.


I can't help but think of this parallel: recently, I have seen several example of religious people claiming that they are being "persecuted" for their beliefs. It is pretty well known that atheism is on the rise, and yes, atheists can be critical of religious beliefs. Most simplistically, it could be, "you're crazy for believing in imaginary beings," or it could be quite academic, "the evidence for your beliefs is specious, and I invite you to compose a better case for your beliefs." Neither of these are "persecution." Persecution is, you can't buy your food here if you believe, or getting beaten up in an alley for wearing a cross.

Telling a BS that they had failings, shortcomings, or otherwise weren't being a good partner in the marrriage IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO BLAME. It's like having a crappy boss at work. You dread coming in every day, they make your life hell. You finally give in and quit. The other job doesn't work out, so you decide to come back to the first job. Do you tell your boss, "I quit before because *a, b, c*, and I think we should work on improving those things," or just let it be the same thing it was before? If you say something, should your boss just go, "screw you, don't blame this on me, the problem is, you quit, and now that you're back, you have to do whatever I say and like it."


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> I fully approve and endorse this post.


Good grief,
You chase away one of the few WS who was willing to post here by telling her this wasn't the right place for her, and now you want the BS to leave too. Not much of welcoming feeling here.


----------



## Wolf1974

changedbeliefs said:


> She did, but very reluctantly at first. When the one therapist told her she had co-dependency issues, she got very angry, acted like she had just been name-called. It took her a while to figure out, putting me on a 6" leash was not only not going to help the R, but was the cause of a lot of my unrest, and was not healthy for her.
> 
> Now, this is where it gets tricky: ok, so her "clinginess," for lack of a clinical word, is a VERY real thing, and is a serious reflection of issues on her part (self-esteem, abandonment fears, e.g.). They starkly conflicted my nature, which is very much NOT clingy, at all. So, in my IC, I learned the "continuum" of: she tries to reach at me, I move away. The harder she reaches, the more I move away. The worst part was, I had no "retreat" of my own; I had lost myself, no hobbies, no outlets, no personal support circle. My withdrawl into the A was the ultimate reaction. It was MY CHOICE to use the A as my withdrawl spot, it could have been into work, or alcohol, or whatever. But when the A was done, to simply act like that was the problem, to purport that there weren't issues on my wife's end to address, that she now had some unilateral power to dictate how the marriage was going to from there, would be foolish.


Gotcha makes sense thanks


----------



## Wolf1974

Pluto2 said:


> Good grief,
> You chase away one of the few WS who was willing to post here by telling her this was the right place for her, and now you want the BS to leave too. Not much of welcoming feeling here.


Never wanted us here in the first place. I won't be bullied out I just won't sink to his level either.


----------



## Wolf1974

changedbeliefs said:


> This is exactly one point of my posts here. That's a SUBJECTIVE quality, but too often, BS's drive the bus on this, as "the authority" on what is blameshifting, and they wield that authority with a very wide brush.


That could be true however in the individual case of BS who is saying to his WS you are blame shifting then that would suggest to me that their thought and feelings aren't being validated. If reconciliation is the honest intention I think that would need to be examined as well


----------



## Rookie4

changedbeliefs said:


> I can't help but think of this parallel: recently, I have seen several example of religious people claiming that they are being "persecuted" for their beliefs. It is pretty well known that atheism is on the rise, and yes, atheists can be critical of religious beliefs. Most simplistically, it could be, "you're crazy for believing in imaginary beings," or it could be quite academic, "the evidence for your beliefs is specious, and I invite you to compose a better case for your beliefs." Neither of these are "persecution." Persecution is, you can't buy your food here if you believe, or getting beaten up in an alley for wearing a cross.
> 
> Telling a BS that they had failings, shortcomings, or otherwise weren't being a good partner in the marrriage IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO BLAME. It's like having a crappy boss at work. You dread coming in every day, they make your life hell. You finally give in and quit. The other job doesn't work out, so you decide to come back to the first job. Do you tell your boss, "I quit before because *a, b, c*, and I think we should work on improving those things," or just let it be the same thing it was before? If you say something, should your boss just go, "screw you, don't blame this on me, the problem is, you quit, and now that you're back, you have to do whatever I say and like it."


Some BS's feel that because their partner cheated, it gives them (the BS ) carte blanche to be abusive and overbearing. Which, of course, doesn't help anything.


----------



## Rookie4

Regret214 said:


> With all due respect, where in this thread has that happened? Can you please quote waywards doing this here. Except for some oddball comments from Zanne, I'm not seeing anyone being "raked over the coals".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 It is the mob mentality. I try to support the WS without condoning their actions, but because of all the hate, I am attacked.


----------



## Almostrecovered

the great failed CWI experiment of August 14


----------



## EI

Almostrecovered said:


> the great failed CWI experiment of August 14



I completely disagree. I think this thread is not unlike TAM as a whole. It's a lot like shopping at an outlet mall or discount chain. Sometimes, you have to dig through a lot of worthless junk before you discover those one or two really great finds. 

This is a big thread. There is a lot of the typical negativity that you will find all throughout CWI. Coping with infidelity is one of the most painful and difficult things that we should never have to do in our lifetime. It shouldn't happen, but it does. Despite the negativity, I think there has also been some very good discussion taking place in this thread. You just have to learn how to sort through it and weed out the junk from the treasures. It's up to each individual to decide which is which.


----------



## love=pain

EI said:


> I completely disagree. I think this thread is not unlike TAM as a whole. It's a lot like shopping at an outlet mall or discount chain. Sometimes, you have to dig through a lot of worthless junk before you discover those one or two really great finds.
> 
> This is a big thread. There is a lot of the typical negativity that you will find all throughout CWI. Coping with infidelity is one of the most painful and difficult things that we should never have to do in our lifetime. It shouldn't happen, but it does. Despite the negativity, I think there has also been some very good discussion taking place in this thread. You just have to learn how to sort through it and weed out the junk from the treasures. It's up to each individual to decide which is which.


You know I have found the same thing in just talking to people during trying times in my life, some times the most helpful conversations happen with people you would never expect could help usually after talking to several others and getting nothing.


----------



## seasalt

I wasn't sure of the need for this thread 133 pages ago. For the start a post encouraging waywards to expose themselves and rely on people raw with betrayal to welcome them was at best short sighted and at worst set up for entertainment. I'm somewhat surprised this thread hasn't been locked long ago.

Perhaps this TAM site needs a "wayward forum" like one other I have seen that is heavily monitored and where other waywards wield the 2x4s and do much of the policing themselves. 

I don't post much and certainly will not get involved with a back and forth but I thought to myself two weeks ago this thread was doomed to less than its stated hope for success two weeks ago.

Just sayin',

seasalt


----------



## Wolf1974

seasalt said:


> I wasn't sure of the need for this thread 133 pages ago. For the start a post encouraging waywards to expose themselves and rely on people raw with betrayal to welcome them was at best short sighted and at worst set up for entertainment. I'm somewhat surprised this thread hasn't been locked long ago.
> 
> Perhaps this TAM site needs a "wayward forum" like one other I have seen that is heavily monitored and where other waywards wield the 2x4s and do much of the policing themselves.
> 
> I don't post much and certainly will not get involved with a back and forth but I thought to myself two weeks ago this thread was doomed to less than its stated hope for success two weeks ago.
> 
> Just sayin',
> 
> seasalt



That was suggested before but others said the Mods weren't interested. Guess they expect adults to be able to share opinions without childish antics or disrespecting others who don't share the same opinion.


----------



## Rookie4

Actually, I am very happy with this thread. Before it, TAM was becoming a BS rant fest. Fewer and fewer WS's were staying and those that did were bashed constantly...unendingly I am surprised at the number of BS posters who believe that everybody deserves respect, and have tried to talk to the WS posters without accusations. I am deeply grateful to those posters.


----------



## Rookie4

love=pain said:


> You know I have found the same thing in just talking to people during trying times in my life, some times the most helpful conversations happen with people you would never expect could help usually after talking to several others and getting nothing.


Very, very true. It was a chat with a cab driver that convinced me to kick my ex out, instead of moving out, myself. Worked out much better for both of us.


----------



## Thundarr

changedbeliefs said:


> Telling a BS that they had failings, shortcomings, or otherwise weren't being a good partner in the marrriage IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO BLAME. It's like having a crappy boss at work. You dread coming in every day, they make your life hell. You finally give in and quit. The other job doesn't work out, so you decide to come back to the first job. Do you tell your boss, "I quit before because *a, b, c*, and I think we should work on improving those things," or just let it be the same thing it was before? If you say something, should your boss just go, "screw you, don't blame this on me, the problem is, you quit, and now that you're back, you have to do whatever I say and like it."


Employment is a good analogy. Jobs gets boring and stale and tiresome just like marriage can. Some people take good jobs for granted just like spouses do. And companies who treat employees like crap can't keep them. But a lot of people need a crap job or two before they land a good one otherwise they don't appreciate what they have. It's probably the same with relationships. That goes back to the 'satisfaction' discussion I was having with OP earlier.

I worked with a guy who always had something to complain about; thought the place we worked was awful. Eventually the company sold our product to someone else so he and I and other team mates found other jobs. Few years later when we all got together to catch up, he told me that he was an idiot back then because we had it really good.

My brother had worked for small AC companies and free lancing. He got a maintenance job at one of the better companies in our region a few years back. He was baffled that so many of the long term guys whined and complained about how terrible the place was.


----------



## Paladin

Thundarr said:


> Then we agree that your attempt to call out BSs for not keeping their WSs satisfied and therefore causing affairs was uncalled for and blame shifting. Awesome.


This is so juvenile, at no time in this thread has Rookie ever said that the BS is responsible for the affair. The constant accusation of "blame shifting/justification for an affair" has been mentioned by several members posting on this thread, and this is a prime example.

So much easier to make up an indefensible position and accuse someone else of taking it, than to actually listen to what is being said. 

There is no clearer way to spell it out, if one of the spouses was unhealthy enough to cheat, the marriage could not have been healthy. Even if the problem in the marriage was unknown to both spouses, it was still there. It is very simple to say "you were a perfect spouse and the marriage was good" after the fact, because that absolves a person from having to examine the relationship in detail to figure out what happened. 

Im sure in an infinite time line we could come across a perfectly healthy marriage where infidelity occurred anyway, but I can not see that being the norm.

Someone here mentioned this briefly, "once a person or persons 'get it' and learn how devastating infidelity is, they work as hard as they can to make sure it never happens again." That process, and the work it takes, is what leads to an actual healthy marriage.


----------



## Paladin

lenzi said:


> Where does it say that?


This question was about TAMs mission statement, and whether or not it includes being supportive of healthy marriages

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-forum-rules-please-read-first.html#post14833



Chris H. said:


> Thank you for visiting Talk About Marriage.
> 
> Talk About Marriage is a forum to discuss marriage and relationships. Here, we interpret the word "marriage" loosely, recognizing that many different people from different cultures view marriage differently. Please observe our posting guidelines.
> 
> Forum Rules:
> 
> 1. Treat others on the forum with dignity and respect.
> Personal attacks, hate speech, racist or sexist statements or attacks, sexual harassment, explicit sexual comments, promoting violence, will not be tolerated.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> 8. Be supportive of others and their desire to have happier, healthier relationships.


Hope that helps a bit.


----------



## Wolf1974

Paladin said:


> This is so juvenile, at no time in this thread has Rookie ever said that the BS is responsible for the affair. The constant accusation of "blame shifting/justification for an affair" has been mentioned by several members posting on this thread, and this is a prime example.
> 
> So much easier to make up an indefensible position and accuse someone else of taking it, than to actually listen to what is being said.
> *
> There is no clearer way to spell it out, if one of the spouses was unhealthy enough to cheat, the marriage could not have been healthy*. Even if the problem in the marriage was unknown to both spouses, it was still there. It is very simple to say "you were a perfect spouse and the marriage was good" after the fact, because that absolves a person from having to examine the relationship in detail to figure out what happened.
> 
> Im sure in an infinite time line we could come across a perfectly healthy marriage where infidelity occurred anyway, but I can not see that being the norm.
> 
> Someone here mentioned this briefly, "once a person or persons 'get it' and learn how devastating infidelity is, they work as hard as they can to make sure it never happens again." That process, and the work it takes, is what leads to an actual healthy marriage.


According to YOU. But you have not lived all examples. some BS on this thread have stated they were in healthy relationships and got cheated on. Then some WS have come saying they were also in healthy relationships and for selfish reasons cheated. 

I have no idea if it's the norm. I do think it Happens far more often than people want to admit. You don't agree that's fine. I examined through myself, counceling and through discussions with my x wife about what happend. Our marriage wasn't perfect. No marriage is. But it was healthy until she made a selfish decision to cheat. She didn't do so with intention of destroying a marriage she got caught up in the flattery of it all or as others like to call it the "fog of the affair". 

Why it is so offensive to some that someone may make a bad decision in a moment of weakness? I am all for holding people accountable but my god people do make mistakes and we need to recognize that as well. Can't just be one sided


----------



## Wolf1974

Paladin said:


> This question was about TAMs mission statement, and whether or not it includes being supportive of healthy marriages
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-forum-rules-please-read-first.html#post14833
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that helps a bit.


Thank you for posting this! It's good to know and needed here


----------



## Thundarr

Thundarr said:


> Then we agree that your attempt to call out BSs for not keeping their WSs satisfied and therefore causing affairs was uncalled for and blame shifting. Awesome.
> 
> 
> 
> Paladin said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is so juvenile, at no time in this thread has Rookie ever said that the BS is responsible for the affair. The constant accusation of "blame shifting/justification for an affair" has been mentioned by several members posting on this thread, and this is a prime example.
Click to expand...


Then you either didn't read the post below or you intrepret it differently than most people would. I didn't like WSs getting attacked early in this thread and I said so a few times. I also don't like BSs getting attacked so I commented on the post below because it clearly insinuates that many people are 'the accessory before the fact' as it was stated. I fundamentally disagree that a BS is an accessory to their partner cheating.



Rookie4 said:


> *Funny that. Posters say that they had good marriages, and in the same post enumerate areas where it was not so good. Who's trying to fool who?* If you have a mutually satisfying marriage, infidelity is very unlikely to occur, and all of these would-be scenerios are merely excuses.
> Face it. No BS wants to admit that they might have contributed to the WS's, pre-affair, state of mind. It's easier to play the blame game, instead of a little positive introspection. Blame all of it on the WS or the Devil or chance or anything else, but NEVER admit that you as the BS might have a few flaws , yourself. *The decision to cheat was the WS's , but in many cases, the accessory before the fact, is the BS.*


----------



## doubletrouble

Paladin said:


> This question was about TAMs mission statement, and whether or not it includes being supportive of healthy marriages
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-forum-rules-please-read-first.html#post14833
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that helps a bit.


Good post. Unfortunately all those rules a quite randomly enforced. At least from my chair. I'm seeing people in other areas of this forum being attacked who aren't even here, yet everyone on the thread just joins in.


----------



## sidney2718

FalconKing said:


> You've said that a few times in this thread. What is that some kind of auto-response?
> Why didn't you just go with the classics "I know you are but what I am I!" Or how you are rubber and I'm glue..etc..etc.
> 
> And I can't find anybody else because you are the only one fanning flames. People get married everyday. I believe there are enough people getting married to logically come to the conclusion that sometimes affairs happen with no fault of the other person in the marriage. Sometimes marriages are very toxic and sometimes people are just oblivious. And maybe there are people here who want to take blame for being in a bad marriage. But I don't think every single person that has been cheated on was contributing to a terrible marriage. And I do believe some of the people that post here may have been in a marriage where they felt things were fine and they and their spouses needs were met. And if their ex was here they may say the same. So why do you need this? Some people agreed with you and some didn't. But it seemed like it ended respectfully. Nobody was challenging you on anything. And then you swoop in rehashing your stance and for who's benefit? Saying how you are willing to admit you could have done better. That doesn't make you special. Whether you say that or not doesn't make people applaud you. That's only for your benefit.
> 
> What is it that you want? You said before you didn't want the thread to become this and look at you. That above post was just to get arouse out of people. If not, then what was your motivation if no one was no longer debating you?


Am I correct in thinking that you just want this thread to go away?


----------



## sidney2718

Served Cold said:


> I believe infidelity is abuse. It's abuse of trust and denying someone their own reality.
> 
> If someone chooses to cheat rather than choose to divorce this is indicative that the marriage is still not that bad or they cannot leave it without a back up in the wings.
> 
> Cheating is a character flaw.
> 
> Everyday people break up. Many relationships fail. That's life.
> 
> So if a spouse didn't cheat but took up gambling or drinking is their spouse's imperfections partially to blame for this?
> 
> I didn't argue that relationships have ups and downs and there is fault on either side. But to insinuate that being cheated on is in any way justified is ridiculous.


Nobody has done any of that. May I respectfully suggest that you go back and read the first few posts in this thread?


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> That has been his agenda all along. He states in the beginning about wanting a thread for WS and open communication, which initially I believed, but he has proven time and time again that it is his way or the highway. Instead of listening to other viewpoints he tells people to get out and then "jokingly" hurls insults.
> 
> Not hard to see why he doesn't believe in accountability when his standard is the only standard


Wait a minute here. You seem to be asserting that Rookie had an agenda other than discussing the treatment of those who have affairs. I'd like to know what you think Rookie's "real agenda" is.

And no, I'm not trying to trap you. This forum has a "quote" feature. When you find a post by anyone that contains an argument you think wrong, why not quote it and say why you think it is wrong. In particular point out the post or posts in which Rookie says that "he doesn't believe in accountability..."


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> You haven't done either so what is their to argue Rookie?


Once again you are arguing by assertion and not by giving examples. Note that I document my charge of "assertion" by quoting an assertion you've made.


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> Once again you are arguing by assertion and not by giving examples. Note that I document my charge of "assertion" by quoting an assertion you've made.


Actually I posted several examples of it last night. 

His agenda has been from the beginning if you don't agree with my opinion and disagree with me get out. I copied several examples of that yesterday and not doing it again. It's not an opinion it's what he said


----------



## Wolf1974

Back on topic I was wondering if their has been any actual research on the topic of affairs in happy marriage since it seems so easy to dismiss that notion here no matter how many people, Wayward and Betrayed alike, state that's what happened to them. Turns out their was some. Found this article has some interesting information. 

HowStuffWorks "Happy Marriages Don't Prevent Affairs"


----------



## sidney2718

FalconKing said:


> You are right. You have grown a lot since your bad marriage. I can tell by how well you communicate. You never post things just get a reaction out of people. And if you did, I know that you would be man enough to admit you were doing that. I would also like to commend you on how you don't feel the need to prove a point when nobody is talking to you. And it seems reasonable that you don't expect other BS to be like you. Respect brother.


Good post!

As I understand it, this thread was established to discuss why the opinions of wandering spouses are almost always denigrated. It is common on TAM and CWI in particular to assert that nobody really knows why most cheating spouses cheat. The best people often do is to attribute it to character flaws in the cheater.

Some cheating spouses agree with this. Others do not. I for one am interested in what they have to say. But I can't hear them because the minute they show up they are subjected to serious attack. The first pages of this thread, in spite of its title, show this very well.


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> Good post!
> 
> As I understand it, this thread was established to discuss why the opinions of wandering spouses are almost always denigrated. It is common on TAM and CWI in particular to assert that nobody really knows why most cheating spouses cheat. The best people often do is to attribute it to character flaws in the cheater.
> 
> Some cheating spouses agree with this. Others do not. I for one am interested in what they have to say. But I can't hear them because the minute they show up they are subjected to serious attack. The first pages of this thread, in spite of its title, show this very well.



That does happen here. And BS get attacked as well. It's not right on either front


----------



## sidney2718

doubletrouble said:


> Good post. Unfortunately all those rules a quite randomly enforced. At least from my chair. I'm seeing people in other areas of this forum being attacked who aren't even here, yet everyone on the thread just joins in.


Yup. But there has been a LOT of attempted thread-jacks here and every time Rookie tries to get things back on track, he's buried in attacks.


----------



## sidney2718

Served Cold said:


> I get the impression you feel guilt in someway. It's ok to to say cheating is wrong and you really had no blame in it.


Yes, but is it correct that he really had no blame in it? And how can we tell? One way would be to let cheating spouses post on CWI and listen to what they have to say. And they can't feel free to speak if every word they utter is pounced upon and shouted down.


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> No you asked for proof that you asked people to leave your thread who didn't want to follow your format. It wasn't hard to find. Was about every other post in the earlier pages


I'm sorry. That is NOT the same as "asking folks to leave because Rookie doesn't agree with him."

What you were writing about are the attempts by some folks to change the subject here. That is known as thread jacking and is specifically forbidden by the TAM rules.

Rookie started this thread to discuss the problems that WS's face when and if they attempt to post in TAM in general and in CWI in particular.


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> Yes, but is it correct that he really had no blame in it? And how can we tell? One way would be to let cheating spouses post on CWI and listen to what they have to say. And they can't feel free to speak if every word they utter is pounced upon and shouted down.


Selective description. Who "shouted down" Scarlet?


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> In so far as the insult thing you say now it was just a joke calling people who again disagreed with you poophead. Well can't refute a like week later statement it was a joke
> 
> 
> Dunno as seems to me you demand respect but give none yourself.


I'm sorry. You'd best go back and reread the 'poophead' comment. Rookie originally posted it and *I* am the one who objected to it. Rookie then said that he meant it as a joke and I dropped it.

I'm willing to listen to your version.


----------



## sidney2718

rookie4 said:


> absolutely, i feel guilt. For the way i treated my marriage and for neglecting to work on it as much as i should have. I feel bad that what was once a good marriage became a bad dream, and i admit my part in making it so. I feel no guilt whatsoever for my wife's cheating, but i will not blame her for every marital issue, nor do i think that because she cheated, that lets me off the hook for my mistakes as a husband.


bravo!


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry. That is NOT the same as "asking folks to leave because Rookie doesn't agree with him."
> 
> What you were writing about are the attempts by some folks to change the subject here. That is known as thread jacking and is specifically forbidden by the TAM rules.
> 
> Rookie started this thread to discuss the problems that WS's face when and if they attempt to post in TAM in general and in CWI in particular.
> 
> 
> 
> So let me follow your logic here...well not logic thought process
> 
> 
> Someone posted something about kids, I disagreed, the person who posted the question never had anything said to them. But since I posted I disagreed I was told to get out. So I am to take responsibility for the thread jacking. Nope not going to happen.
> 
> I have asked questions of Wayward and Betrayed alike. Somehow got singled out to leave. Sorry but no. The conversation Developed the way it developed and I just followed it along wherever it went. I happen to believe a lot of good sharing of viewpoints have happened here. I directed it nowhere
Click to expand...


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> I'm sorry. You'd best go back and reread the 'poophead' comment. Rookie originally posted it and *I* am the one who objected to it. Rookie then said that he meant it as a joke and I dropped it.
> 
> I'm willing to listen to your version.


What version? I said in forum I took it at value he was stating it as a joke. Maybe you should read all the posts? I never said he called me anything. Assumption


----------



## pidge70

sidney2718 said:


> Yup. But there has been a LOT of attempted thread-jacks here and every time Rookie tries to get things back on track, he's buried in attacks.


You speak a lot of other people thread jacking......I find it ironic that you are doing that exact same thing. Repeatedly.


----------



## Wolf1974

pidge70 said:


> You speak a lot of other people thread jacking......I find it ironic that you are doing that exact same thing. Repeatedly.


Sometimes I wish TAM had a double like button


----------



## pidge70

sidney2718 said:


> I'm sorry. That is NOT the same as "asking folks to leave because Rookie doesn't agree with him."
> 
> What you were writing about are the attempts by some folks to change the subject here. That is known as thread jacking and is specifically forbidden by the TAM rules.
> 
> Rookie started this thread to discuss the problems that WS's face when and if they attempt to post in TAM in general and in CWI in particular.


Here is Rookie's opening post......



> I would like to personally invite any wayward spouses, who might be lurking here on TAM, to post your stories and see if we can help you. There are a number of posters who will do their best to answer your questions and give you the best advice they have. Of course , there are also those who will attempt to berate and abuse you, but I feel that there are enough compassionate posters to , in part, shield you from the haters and abusers. TAM is a very worthwhile website, and can be a positive force in marriage reconciliation.


I'd like to know where the supposed help is for WS's? Oh right, there isn't really any because people keep fighting amongst themselves.


----------



## pidge70

Wolf1974 said:


> Sometimes I wish TAM had a double like button


----------



## sidney2718

EI said:


> Being a former WS, I have been on the receiving end of my share of **** on TAM. To be fair, I give back as good as I get, so I'm not asking for a break. The only thing that disturbs me more than having cruel, and often inaccurate, assumptions made about me, is seeing BS's turning on each other.
> 
> Can you guys please stop it with the_ "He called me a "poopy head."_ _"No, I didn't."__ "Yes, you did."_ _"Well, you said it first._" _"Prove it."_ * M-O-O-O-O-M!*
> 
> I am a mother of five and a grandmother of 1. I come here to escape and to find some peace. This is starting to sound too much like home!
> 
> There are WS's to be bashed. Can you BS's NOT bash one another? You all know that it is highly unlikely that anyone here is ever really going to change anyone else's opinion regarding certain issues, right? And, if you ever were to be successful, it wouldn't be because a fairly serious thread had descended into a melee of childish name calling. It would occur within a respectful exchange of honest dialog. There has been some decent dialog in this thread. I think it would be beneficial for everyone if you could get back to that. FWIW, coming from a former WS.


I agree with you. But I am arguing for something a bit different. And no, I'm not blame shifting.

When an OP shows up at TAM with a desire to reconcile with his or her wayward spouse, there are many good pieces of advice we can give them. One of those pieces of advice is that both partners have to work on their own problems if the reconciliation is to have any chance of success.

But there is a group of posters who firmly believe, as is their right, that once a cheater always a cheater and that cheaters can never be trusted and so reconciliation is a mirage that almost never works.

This message is presented very loudly and forcefully with the result that WW's in particular go away and leave TAM. This is not my discovery. It has been talked about on several TAM threads in recent months. This thread was, I believe, started as an attempt to gain some understanding of the problem of the vanishing of waywards who want to save their marriage.

So in my opinion, the argument is not so much as attempting to change anyone's mind as it is for us to self-impose some basic decency in talking to WS's, find out their story, and then give our honest opinion without name calling or insinuations.


----------



## sidney2718

Maricha75 said:


> I know it's rough on a site like this... and given the current PM things that have come to light with other longstanding members, I would just feel weird, as a fWS, PM'ing with members of the opposite sex, talking about why I did what I did. The intent may simply be just to help, but it can easily change to something else... with just a slight change in words. I don't know about SB, but in talking about things related to EA territory as well as the state of the marriage, PM, especially with someone of the opposite sex, would be furthest from my mind. JMHO.


I understand where you are coming from. But I see nothing wrong with folks using PM's to help a situation. Anybody getting an out of bounds PM should report it instantly so that no problems arise.


----------



## FalconKing

sidney2718 said:


> Am I correct in thinking that you just want this thread to go away?


:yawn2:

It just seems like the battle lines were drawn and there were respectful disagreements...eventually

And I felt like some people were saying "hey! my marriage REALLY wasn't bad. I'm serious! My spouse just lost their sh!t or had a moment of weakness. I understand what you are saying but that wasn't me and my marriage and i'm not owning that." How can anybody argue with that? But Rookie did...

It was just so unnecessary. Especially when nobody was saying or doing anything to him to provoke his response to my initial posts. And once people felt the need to respond, he acted like he didn't do anything? I just don't understand his logic or motivation. He wanted this thread to be a place WS could come. With nobody arguing with him he could have taken the silence of the room to reaffirm his initial goal. He only says what his initial goal is once other members tired of the back and forth, bring it up. It's like he wants to have a moral high ground when he has attention or nobody disagrees with him.


----------



## sidney2718

ScarletBegonias said:


> I turned off my ability to receive and send PMs this morning.I don't really even want to log in here anymore and only did it with the encouragement of my doc bc I was so hung up that people saw me as a good wife when I'm clearly not.I had to say I'm not.She wants me to move forward even if it's just a small step.
> I had a meltdown yesterday even though life in my house is peaceful and on the mend. I accidentally cut my fingers pulling apart a shaving razor.So that had to be explained which is beyond humiliating. I didn't do anything else w/the razors though so that's one positive mark for my willpower I guess.I don't want to be a walking bpd cliche. hurting myself hurts DH more.hurting myself actually was always a way to make myself feel better and I don't deserve that release.so that would just be another thing I've done wrong to him.I promised him a few years back that I'd never do that stuff again.
> He's so good and pure and every bit of love anyone could ask to have in life. Why wasn't I thinking more about that when I was being a disgusting person? Validation about my looks was worth more than his trust and love at the time?? It's unreal to me now.It makes me want to throw up.Can't imagine how he is so normal and understanding.
> I really have no one except DH,myself,and my doc.I think it's better that way though bc I can't be trusted. I thought I was confident and strong and didn't need validation from Dh but obviously I need it badly or I wouldn't have gotten caught up in receiving it from strangers online. I don't even want to talk about it anymore.I want it to stop weighing on me. I was fine then I wasn't.
> Thank you for the tips and suggestions.
> Peace.


SB, you do have friends here. I understand about validation of looks. Current US culture makes it clear to all women that they have to be 10's or they are losers. I think that's awful.

And I gather that being in a successful marriage (it was successful before your A, right) wasn't enough to reassure you.

And I assume that your husband is working with you to forgive you for the affair and to get over it.

All those things are good. Listen to your doctor. You cannot blame yourself for the rest of your life. You would not only be punishing yourself but punishing your husband as well. You've got to pay attention to his needs too.

I know you know all of this. But if you want to talk to folks, TAM is really a good place to do it.


----------



## xakulax

FalconKing said:


> You've said that a few times in this thread. What is that some kind of auto-response?
> Why didn't you just go with the classics "I know you are but what I am I!" Or how you are rubber and I'm glue..etc..etc.
> 
> And I can't find anybody else because you are the only one fanning flames. People get married everyday. I believe there are enough people getting married to logically come to the conclusion that sometimes affairs happen with no fault of the other person in the marriage. Sometimes marriages are very toxic and sometimes people are just oblivious. And maybe there are people here who want to take blame for being in a bad marriage. But I don't think every single person that has been cheated on was contributing to a terrible marriage. And I do believe some of the people that post here may have been in a marriage where they felt things were fine and they and their spouses needs were met. And if their ex was here they may say the same. So why do you need this? Some people agreed with you and some didn't. But it seemed like it ended respectfully. Nobody was challenging you on anything. And then you swoop in rehashing your stance and for who's benefit? Saying how you are willing to admit you could have done better. That doesn't make you special. Whether you say that or not doesn't make people applaud you. That's only for your benefit.
> 
> What is it that you want? You said before you didn't want the thread to become this and look at you. That above post was just to get arouse out of people. If not, then what was your motivation if no one was no longer debating you?




:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


Well said


----------



## sidney2718

changedbeliefs said:


> She did, but very reluctantly at first. When the one therapist told her she had co-dependency issues, she got very angry, acted like she had just been name-called. It took her a while to figure out, putting me on a 6" leash was not only not going to help the R, but was the cause of a lot of my unrest, and was not healthy for her.
> 
> Now, this is where it gets tricky: ok, so her "clinginess," for lack of a clinical word, is a VERY real thing, and is a serious reflection of issues on her part (self-esteem, abandonment fears, e.g.). They starkly conflicted my nature, which is very much NOT clingy, at all. So, in my IC, I learned the "continuum" of: she tries to reach at me, I move away. The harder she reaches, the more I move away. The worst part was, I had no "retreat" of my own; I had lost myself, no hobbies, no outlets, no personal support circle. My withdrawl into the A was the ultimate reaction. It was MY CHOICE to use the A as my withdrawl spot, it could have been into work, or alcohol, or whatever. But when the A was done, to simply act like that was the problem, to purport that there weren't issues on my wife's end to address, that she now had some unilateral power to dictate how the marriage was going to from there, would be foolish.


Thanks for that. It is another data point for the data base.

There is, what we call at TAM, a "cheater's handbook" which contains all the excuses, behaviors, etc., employed by cheaters. What I think we need is a "Wayward Situations Handbook" to help married couples AVOID the things that lead to divorce.

We have some already. The proverbial overworking husband who works from 8 AM to 11 PM every night and is on call on weekends is a prime candidate to lose his wife to an affair. I AM NOT EXCUSING THE AFFAIR. More people need to realized this.


----------



## sidney2718

Pluto2 said:


> Good grief,
> You chase away one of the few WS who was willing to post here by telling her this wasn't the right place for her, and now you want the BS to leave too. Not much of welcoming feeling here.


I assume that you are talking about SB? Weeeelll, it isn't quite like that, is it? About the last thing she needs to hear is some of the anti-cheater opinions here. Nothing wrong with being anti-cheater. It is just not what a cheater needs in order to recover.

I've stressed all the way through this thread that once the choice to attempt a reconciliation has been made BOTH partners have to participate. One partner can't opt out on the grounds that all the fault belongs to the other partner.


----------



## FalconKing

sidney2718 said:


> I assume that you are talking about SB? Weeeelll, it isn't quite like that, is it? About the last thing she needs to hear is some of the anti-cheater opinions here. Nothing wrong with being anti-cheater. It is just not what a cheater needs in order to recover.
> 
> I've stressed all the way through this thread that once the choice to attempt a reconciliation has been made BOTH partners have to participate. One partner can't opt out on the grounds that all the fault belongs to the other partner.


I don't think it was all the talks of anti-cheaters that ran her off. Who feels open to communicating in the middle of a gunfight?

EDIT* Or perhaps you mean the users here in general? I can see your point then.


----------



## sidney2718

Paladin said:


> This question was about TAMs mission statement, and whether or not it includes being supportive of healthy marriages
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-forum-rules-please-read-first.html#post14833
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that helps a bit.


Thanks Paladin. I posted the same content a week or so ago. Perhaps you will have more luck than I did with it.


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> Thank you for posting this! It's good to know and needed here


Gee Wolf, when I posted it a week or so ago, it got ignored...


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> Actually I posted several examples of it last night.
> 
> His agenda has been from the beginning if you don't agree with my opinion and disagree with me get out. I copied several examples of that yesterday and not doing it again. It's not an opinion it's what he said


I expect that by now you've read the rules as posted by Paladin and so understand that what was going on was, perhaps unintentionally, an attempt to change the subject of the thread.

Nothing stops you from starting your own thread on your topic. Indeed I encourage you to do so.


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> Back on topic I was wondering if their has been any actual research on the topic of affairs in happy marriage since it seems so easy to dismiss that notion here no matter how many people, Wayward and Betrayed alike, state that's what happened to them. Turns out their was some. Found this article has some interesting information.
> 
> HowStuffWorks "Happy Marriages Don't Prevent Affairs"


Yes. There are tons of publications in both sociology, social work, and psychology. Anything we can think of has doubtless been covered to death. The problem is that much of it is inaccessible to us and written for professionals so that we'd not fully understand it anyway.


----------



## sidney2718

Wolf1974 said:


> Selective description. Who "shouted down" Scarlet?


Nobody. I wasn't talking about Scarlet. Check the first 50 or so posts in this thread for examples.


----------



## sidney2718

pidge70 said:


> You speak a lot of other people thread jacking......I find it ironic that you are doing that exact same thing. Repeatedly.


It is a problem with us alpha males. When we see thread jacking, we often respond so that new readers don't think that the subject has changed...


----------



## sidney2718

pidge70 said:


> Here is Rookie's opening post......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to personally invite any wayward spouses, who might be lurking here on TAM, to post your stories and see if we can help you. There are a number of posters who will do their best to answer your questions and give you the best advice they have. Of course , there are also those who will attempt to berate and abuse you, but I feel that there are enough compassionate posters to , in part, shield you from the haters and abusers. TAM is a very worthwhile website, and can be a positive force in marriage reconciliation.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to know where the supposed help is for WS's? Oh right, there isn't really any because people keep fighting amongst themselves.
Click to expand...

If you continue on from Rookie's opening post, you will see that a few WS's did come forward and were attacked by being repeatedly told that problems associated with the affair were totally on them.

I tried at that point to convince folks that we were not talking about affairs per se, but what to do AFTER the affair. If there is to be reconciliation there must be an attempt by BOTH marriage partners to fix problems in the marriage. Of course, not everyone believes that, but I do.


----------



## Nostromo

Wolf1974 said:


> Why it is so offensive to some that someone may make a bad decision in a moment of weakness? I am all for holding people accountable but my god people do make mistakes and we need to recognize that as well. Can't just be one sided


REPORTED

Just kidding.

I think the reason some betrayed spouses are so drawn to the idea of an affair being impossible to have occurred without them being complicit in the failure of the marriage, is that looking at it this way allows them to feel like they're in control of the situation. They tell themselves as long as they never do (______) they can't be cheated on again. 
It leaves people feeling too vulnerable when they hear a story like yours and have to face the fact that a person really can do all the right things and still get burned. It doesn't fit in their worldview so they chalk it up as a falsehood. There is literally nothing you could say that will ever convince certain individuals that you did not contribute to the implosion of your marriage in some way or another.


----------



## xakulax

Nostromo said:


> REPORTED
> 
> Just kidding.
> 
> I think the reason some betrayed spouses are so drawn to the idea of an affair being impossible to have occurred without them being complicit in the failure of the marriage, is that looking at it this way allows them to feel like they're in control of the situation. They tell themselves as long as they never do (______) they can't be cheated on again.
> It leaves people feeling too vulnerable when they hear a story like yours and have to face the fact that a person really can do all the right things and still get burned. It doesn't fit in their worldview so they chalk it up as a falsehood. There is literally nothing you could say that will ever convince certain individuals that you did not contribute to the implosion of your marriage in some way or another.



:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:



*The truthfulness of your words is astounding* for some it is much easier to believe in this fallacy then accept the reality that you can do everything right or everything wrong in a marriage and your spouse may still cheat on you


----------



## Thundarr

sidney2718 said:


> I assume that you are talking about SB? Weeeelll, it isn't quite like that, is it? About the last thing she needs to hear is some of the anti-cheater opinions here. Nothing wrong with being anti-cheater. It is just not what a cheater needs in order to recover.
> 
> I've stressed all the way through this thread that once the choice to attempt a reconciliation has been made BOTH partners have to participate. One partner can't opt out on the grounds that all the fault belongs to the other partner.


I agree sidney. This thread is not a good place for Scarlet today. Her emotions are too raw and she's got a few things to work out with supportive support (if that makes any sense).

On the reconciliation part, yea that takes both and it's not easy for either one. The WS has to take on a lot of heavy lifting for a long time as well as guilt, and the BS will have mind movies for years or decades. I respect those who have reconciled but there are many more who are in the middle of false reconciliation. If this thread or TAM in general could prevent false reconciliation and at the same time promote actual reconciliation then it would be gold. I don't have answers for how to make that happen though.


----------



## Thundarr

sidney2718 said:


> Yes. There are tons of publications in both sociology, social work, and psychology. Anything we can think of has doubtless been covered to death. The problem is that much of it is inaccessible to us and written for professionals so that we'd not fully understand it anyway.


Psychology today magazine is AWESOME for all kinds of topics. The facebook page has pretty much everything the magazine does but the articles come out after the magazine.

No I don't have stock in PT.


----------



## Rookie4

I agree with this. I never said that Wolf did anything wrong, per se, except maybe choosing the wrong partner. I actually believe that he did his level best to make his marriage a good one, but even this doesn't make it so. It really hurts when you try so hard, but still get crapped on, and I can understand his anger, but the fact remains that just because one partner thinks their marriage is a healthy one, doesn't make it so. Because the other partner has proven, by cheating, that it isn't.


----------



## Rookie4

Thundarr said:


> I agree sidney. This thread is not a good place for Scarlet today. Her emotions are too raw and she's got a few things to work out with supportive support (if that makes any sense).
> 
> On the reconciliation part, yea that takes both and it's not easy for either one. The WS has to take on a lot of heavy lifting for a long time as well as guilt, and the BS will have mind movies for years or decades. I respect those who have reconciled but there are many more who are in the middle of false reconciliation. If this thread or TAM in general could prevent false reconciliation and at the same time promote actual reconciliation then it would be gold. I don't have answers for how to make that happen though.


Good post.


----------



## pidge70

sidney2718 said:


> It is a problem with us alpha males. When we see thread jacking, we often respond so that new readers don't think that the subject has changed...


Interesting.....seemed to me that one would just not engage in further thread jacking. Whether a male is "Alpha" or not, is subjective.


----------



## Rookie4

Listen. I don't know why some posters are so concerned about my opinions. News flash! I don't have the answers. If I did, I wouldn't have been the victim of infidelity, would I? In order for me to find out what my ex wife was thinking, I want to hear other WS's stories. The only way to do this is, if they are allowed to speak without fear and are encouraged to do so. Nobody has to agree with them. Nobody has to be here on this thread and listen to them . All I ask is that they be allowed to speak and not shouted down or bashed. Is that too much to ask? 
There are dozens and dozens of threads concerning the BS and their issues. If you don't want to hear WS's , go to one of them. But the fact remains that there needs to be a place for them to seek help and tell their stories. Can there not be one safe place for the WS?


----------



## Thundarr

sidney2718 said:


> It is a problem with us alpha males. When we see thread jacking, we often respond so that new readers don't think that the subject has changed...





pidge70 said:


> Interesting.....seemed to me that one would just not engage in further thread jacking. Whether a male is "Alpha" or not, is subjective.


I think it was in jest and was kind of funny.


----------



## pidge70

Thundarr said:


> I think it was in jest and was kind of funny.


Ummmmm, yeah, I got that.


----------



## Thundarr

Nostromo said:


> REPORTED
> 
> Just kidding.
> 
> I think the reason some betrayed spouses are so drawn to the idea of an affair being impossible to have occurred without them being complicit in the failure of the marriage, is that looking at it this way allows them to feel like they're in control of the situation. They tell themselves as long as they never do (______) they can't be cheated on again.




Okay that makes a lot of sense. I'm disappointed in not see this angle already. Of course none of us like feeling like we don't have control. Reconciliation or even starting over is hard enough when we think we've figured things out so it must be even harder when we're still looking for answers. There should be a place for waywards to express what led them to becoming waywards. I'm guessing that most would express regret once they were able to vent and not get slammed for it.


----------



## Maricha75

Rookie, you said you want to know what your ex-wife was thinking and think hearing from us will help to understand her. But it won't. Regret is not your ex. SB is not your ex. EI is not your ex. I am not your ex. What we each did, what we thought will never be the same as what your ex did. All you will get from us is what we did to OUR husbands... and our husband's are not you.


----------



## Rookie4

last Easter, My GF and I went to my daughters' college for a program. My ex wife was there as well. Our daughter sang " Suo Gan" and I looked at my ex wife and she was sobbing, and I was too. With pride in our little girl, and with the bittersweet feelings that divorced people sometimes get, wondering where it all went wrong. We hugged because whatever we did wrong, we did something right in our children. I don't have a point to make, I was just remembering.


----------



## Rookie4

Maricha75 said:


> Rookie, you said you want to know what your ex-wife was thinking and think hearing from us will help to understand her. But it won't. Regret is not your ex. SB is not your ex. EI is not your ex. I am not your ex. What we each did, what we thought will never be the same as what your ex did. All you will get from us is what we did to OUR husbands... and our husband's are not you.


Maybe so, maybe not. But a safe and courteous place for the WS is needed.


----------



## Maricha75

I don't disagree. At the same time I think we should be able to tell ones who are NOT remorseful that we can see it in the way they write. I mean, if a fWS can see it, I'd think it's not imaginary. And, they should drop the act if they truly are not remorseful. They do more harm than good when they come here, attempting to fake remorse. It causes more division on the board. And it really suckered when some of us can see through it and are lambasted for speaking up.


----------



## Rookie4

Maricha75 said:


> I don't disagree. At the same time I think we should be able to tell ones who are NOT remorseful that we can see it in the way they write. I mean, if a fWS can see it, I'd think it's not imaginary. And, they should drop the act if they truly are not remorseful. They do more harm than good when they come here, attempting to fake remorse. It causes more division on the board. And it really suckered when some of us can see through it and are lambasted for speaking up.


I have no problem with posters expressing their opinions, as long as it is done with courtesy and respect. I do, however , object to mob bashing and character assassination, and projecting words into the mouths of other posters that they did not say..


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> Gee Wolf, when I posted it a week or so ago, it got ignored...


Gee sorry this thread moves pretty fast and must have missed it


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> I expect that by now you've read the rules as posted by Paladin and so understand that what was going on was, perhaps unintentionally, an attempt to change the subject of the thread.
> 
> Nothing stops you from starting your own thread on your topic. Indeed I encourage you to do so.


I read the rule number one. Be respectful which I have and has not been returned. 

I have followed the thread as it went. Others posted and I have responded. I tell you what I told rookie. You can ignore me if you like but I have as much right to post here my opinion as do you.

And I have started threads here on TAM. Various topics. You are welcome to read them and post if you like. I can promise you that you will be treated more respectful there than I have here and no empty threats of reporting to mods any opinion I simply don't agree with :smthumbup:


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> Nobody. I wasn't talking about Scarlet. Check the first 50 or so posts in this thread for examples.


I was here in the beginning. I never shouted down any waywards here so your projecting what others did onto me. I have maintained we can all have difference in opinions and be respectful about it.


----------



## Rookie4

I would also like to call attention to some of the WS's who have been on TAM and helped all BS's (especially those attempting to reconcile) to understand the POV of the WS. Mrs. Adams, EI, Regret, CSS , Soulpotato and others are to be commended for their courage and civility.
This thread is for them, but also for other WS's who are suffering from the bad decisions that they made. Posters like Tears, SB, Mrs Mathias and even Zanne show just how devestating the affair can and frequently is, to the WS. Compassion isn't only for the BS but also for the WS as well.


----------



## Wolf1974

Nostromo said:


> REPORTED
> 
> Just kidding.
> 
> I think the reason some betrayed spouses are so drawn to the idea of an affair being impossible to have occurred without them being complicit in the failure of the marriage, is that looking at it this way allows them to feel like they're in control of the situation. They tell themselves as long as they never do (______) they can't be cheated on again.
> It leaves people feeling too *vulnerable when they hear a story like yours and have to face the fact that a person really can do all the right things and still get burned. *It doesn't fit in their worldview so they chalk it up as a falsehood. There is literally nothing you could say that will ever convince certain individuals that you did not contribute to the implosion of your marriage in some way or another.


I had never considered that. I guess My example and example of a few others does paint a scary picture of it can happen to anyone.

I know I had a hard time reconciling that after it happened. Felt like a dream I was having. I guess it's like speaking about having a child die or something in an accident. You don't want to think that could ever EVER happen to you. Great point thanks. I think I understand more why some are just reluctant to even consider the option. 

Arrogance was my assumption. Fear maybe the reality


----------



## xakulax

Rookie4 said:


> I would also like to call attention to some of the WS's who have been on TAM and helped all BS's (especially those attempting to reconcile) to understand the POV of the WS. Mrs. Adams, EI, Regret, CSS , Soulpotato and others are to be commended for their courage and civility.
> This thread is for them, but also for other WS's who are suffering from the bad decisions that they made. Posters like Tears, SB, Mrs Mathias and even Zanne show just how devestating the affair can and frequently is, to the WS. Compassion isn't only for the BS but also for the WS as well.




I was with you up until when you said zanne sorry but she's in a another realm wayward like her are not what we need her lack of empathy only made things more difficult


----------



## EI

Maricha75 said:


> I don't disagree. At the same time I think we should be able to tell ones who are NOT remorseful that we can see it in the way they write. I mean, if a fWS can see it, I'd think it's not imaginary. And, they should drop the act if they truly are not remorseful. They do more harm than good when they come here, attempting to fake remorse. It causes more division on the board. And it really suckered when some of us can see through it and are lambasted for speaking up.



I completely disagree with this. It isn't up to the BS's, or the fWS's, of TAM to determine whether or not a fWS is remorseful. There is only one person whose opinion matters regarding the sincerity and remorsefulness of any WS, and that would be their own BS, and not anyone else's BS. The "opinions" of anonymous strangers on the internet are like a$$holes, everyone has one, none of them are, particularly, special. 

There are a few BS's on TAM who, despite both my and B1's repeated comments to the contrary, continue to insist that I am not genuinely remorseful. They insist that I blame my BS for my decision to have an A. We have both been sharing our story, with extreme candidness, on TAM, for over two years, now. We began doing so just 2.5 weeks after D-Day. I have been accused of rewriting our marital history, although my husband has repeatedly backed up every single detail that I've written as being accurate. And, he has written it from his own perspective, as well. Since our story has been told ad nauseam in CWI, I will not rehash it, here. I will simply say, that because we have chosen to share our "whole story," including the issues in our pre-A marriage, the A, the immediate aftermath of D-Day, and our reconciliation, rather than just saying "I'm a worthless cheater, do with me what you will," it doesn't sit well with certain BS's. 

I do know that no matter what the issues were in our marriage, that choosing to cope with them by having an affair was wrong. That is a choice that I made that will hurt both of us for the rest of our lives. B1 is not responsible for how I chose to cope with a marriage that was already broken long before my A began, but he was responsible for many things that contributed to the destruction of our pre-A marriage, and he and I are well aware of what they were. 

In choosing to R, we had to examine the "whole picture." I often read on TAM that the choice to R or divorce is solely up to the BS. But, that's incorrect. A BS cannot R with an unwilling WS. A WS cannot R with an unwilling BS. A BS can divorce their WS, with or without their approval, just as a WS can divorce their BS, with or without their approval. The point is, we all have choices. We all count. If either of us didn't believe that the other counted, we wouldn't be together, today. It wouldn't be healthy for either one of us. 

I do find it rather bizarre, that there are a few BS's on TAM who continue to rage on and on, in thread after thread, about the authenticity of our R. Even going so far as to make demeaning and demoralizing comments to my husband, who used to post here, as well. He still does on the rare occasion, but he lost interest when a certain group of posters started thread jacking, thread after thread, with their purpose being to rage against the WS's, (whom "they" had determined were not remorseful) rather than their desire to heal, grow, and rise above the devastation caused by their own broken relationships. B1 and I had a very dysfunctional marriage for many years. After 30 years of marriage, we are now happier than we have ever been. 

Anyone who continues to insist that "they" have some special all knowing powers to judge the authenticity of others, especially after having heard both sides of the story, and knowing that the stories match, really does have bigger problems that they need to be focusing on. 

This is the result of our reconciliation. 

June 21, 2014 (two days before our 30 wedding anniversary)


----------



## Wolf1974

EI,

I don't know your story. This thread would be the first time I have seen your posts. I like what you say here. The arrogance that exists, not only in this thread but others is truly amazing. Be assured it's not just Waywards who experience this type of bashing. The "my opinion is the greatest of all mentality" crowd is growing here. Lots of crap here but some good with it as well. I know it helped me post affair know that I wasn't alone. 

Even though I chose not to reconcile and to this day know that was the right decision for me I am awed by people who can reconcile and move on.

Ps you have a great looking family. Congrats


----------



## EI

Wolf1974 said:


> EI,
> 
> I don't know your story. This thread would be the first time I have seen your posts. I like what you say here. The arrogance that exists, not only in this thread but others is truly amazing. Be assured it's not just Waywards who experience this type of bashing. The "my opinion is the greatest of all mentality" crowd is growing here. Lots of crap here but some good with it as well. I know it helped me post affair know that I wasn't alone.
> 
> Even though I chose not to reconcile and to this day know that was the right decision for me I am awed by people who can reconcile and move on.
> 
> Ps you have a great looking family. Congrats


Thank you, very much, Wolf. I have appreciated your thoughtful and articulate posts in this thread, as well. And, yes, I am very blessed to have such a wonderful family. We're all feeling very blessed these days.


----------



## Rookie4

xakulax said:


> I was with you up until when you said zanne sorry but she's in a another realm wayward like her are not what we need her lack of empathy only made things more difficult


It's the broken that need help, more than those who can help themselves.


----------



## Deejo

Rookie4 said:


> It's the broken that need help, more than those who can help themselves.


Unless they keep breaking others in their wake.

Nothing changes if nothing changes.


----------



## Maricha75

EI, it really does suck that there are so many who follow you around, just to try to cast doubt onto your reconciliation. I've read your posts. You have not tried to shift the blame onto B1, as far as I have seen. What I have seen is more like my own... "He was behaving in this manner. I had choices... X, Y, & Z. I should have done X, Y would have been acceptable even if not palatable, but I chose Z. I screwed up. I am thankful, everyday, that he chose to work things out with me. I love him. And I show him everyday. We are much stronger than before, now." This is a fair summary of what you have posted, and defended so many times on this site. Honestly, it irritates me when I see some BS come in and start accusing you of blameshifting. Even with B1 confirming everything you said! 
Right now, I am going to say something that may not sit well with some of the BS here. EI has mentioned a few times in other threads about B1's low T. I can relate to this. I'm going through it myself, right now. It was a catalyst to her taking some kind of action. THAT DOES NOT MEAN SHE BLAMES HIM!! She had choices to make, regarding how to handle this and how he acted toward her before getting treatment. She made the choice to get it elsewhere. SHE made the choice. And she states this over and over and over again. And she has put in the work to fix her marriage, as has B1. Both had to work on things or the same issues would keep cropping up. 

Now, there is a difference between EI and posters like Zanne. EI wanted help. Zanne did not. Some may argue that she did, but she truly did not. She did the complete opposite of the advice given here. Good advice, not the things said to shame her. So, with people like her, it's like beating a dead horse. These are the ones I meant. The ones who are actively cheating and have no intention of stopping... those who post, knowing the threads will devolve into trash talk, with the sole intent of getting people banned.

And then, there are the ones who are on TAM only to get attention. They post all the right things, knowing it will suck people in. Some waywards look for the KISA on here. Sad, but it's there.

Ok, so what's my point? I will say it again... you can call someone on his/her behavior and still be respectful. It's not impossible, but is rarely done.


----------



## Wolf1974

Deejo said:


> *Unless they keep breaking others in their wake.
> *
> Nothing changes if nothing changes.


True that. And most don't change till either they want to change or as my grandfather used to say "the poop gets to high".

Mental illness aside


----------



## Rookie4

Deejo said:


> Unless they keep breaking others in their wake.
> 
> Nothing changes if nothing changes.


I agree, but nothing WILL change if you don' try. I'm pretty sure that Zanne knows she is effed up, and I think she wants to make a change, but she hasn't got the will/courage/ self esteem to do so. In short, she is more to be pitied than bashed.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> True that. And most don't change till either they want to change or as my grandfather used to say "the poop gets to high".
> 
> Mental illness aside


I agree with this. Zanne will not change until the motivations for change outweigh the motivations for staying the same. But, to my mind, that does not mean you can't try to show her a better way. Even if she doesn't seem to hear. Life altering changes rarely occur over night. So, maybe a little bit of positive reinforcement here or there might add up. You never know, until you try.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> You never know, until you try.


You can only try just do much, and for just do long. At some point, the futility becomes apparent. At that point, most give up. The constructive advice is presented. Advice is not taken. In fact, the opposite is done. It's at that point when those who have tried, for years, give up. And new people come on, not knowing the back story, and say "don't give up! (S)he just needs understanding!" Or something to that effect. And the new crop tries for two years... same result. The cycle needs to be broken.

Zanne is one who was given excellent advice for two years, that I know of for certain. She did the opposite, all while lamenting about how horrible things were and saying how wonderful the OM is. OM. A married coward who hooked up with a married woman on a marriage support forum. Sorry, but no. She was given time. She chose the opposite path, knowing full well what she is doing.


----------



## Duguesclin

Maricha75 said:


> Zanne is one who was given excellent advice for two years, that I know of for certain. She did the opposite, all while lamenting about how horrible things were and saying how wonderful the OM is. OM. A married coward who hooked up with a married woman on a marriage support forum. Sorry, but no. She was given time. She chose the opposite path, knowing full well what she is doing.


Zanne is a lost soul. I feel that when there is life, there is hope. I do not believe we should give up on her.

Obviously what she is doing is not right. But she deserves some love and compassion. That is the Christian way.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Duguesclin said:


> Zanne is a lost soul. I feel that when there is life, there is hope. I do not believe we should give up on her.
> 
> Obviously what she is doing is not right. But she deserves some love and compassion. That is the Christian way.


The Christian way is also to pray that she wakes up and does the right thing. Just because someone walks away from an unhealthy situation doesn't mean the person isn't praying. Sometimes, that is the best option.


----------



## Wolf1974

Duguesclin said:


> Zanne is a lost soul. I feel that when there is life, there is hope. I do not believe we should give up on her.
> 
> Obviously what she is doing is not right. But she deserves some love and compassion. That is the Christian way.


 A lost soul she may be but stil a choice she is making. And that choice is keeping her husband lied to, used and in the dark.

My prayers would go toward him


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Thundarr said:


> Okay that makes a lot of sense. I'm disappointed in not see this angle already. Of course none of us like feeling like we don't have control. Reconciliation or even starting over is hard enough when we think we've figured things out so it must be even harder when we're still looking for answers. There should be a place for waywards to express what led them to becoming waywards. I'm guessing that most would express regret once they were able to vent and not get slammed for it.


Actually, realizing that I wasn't in control and had no control was when I was able to start to move on and heal. As long as I thought I was somehow complicit in her affair I was stuck. I had no self esteem, I hated her for "doing that to me," I could not detach. The day I realized I had nothing to do with her affair was the day I dropped that weighty parcel by the side of the road. I certainly wasn't a perfect husband. But then again I'm human. If she wanted perfect she should have become a nun and married God. I did my best. Maybe she did too. But I wasn't responsible for her affair and had no control over what she did. Interestingly enough realizing I cannot control another person has helped me immensely in my current marriage. It allows me to maintain perspective and makes sure I don't put her on a pedestal.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *Originally Posted by Duguesclin *
> Zanne is a lost soul. I feel that when there is life, there is hope. I do not believe we should give up on her.
> 
> Obviously what she is doing is not right. But she deserves some love and compassion. That is the Christian way.
> 
> 
> *
> By Maricha*
> The Christian way is also to pray that she wakes up and does the right thing. Just because someone walks away from an unhealthy situation doesn't mean the person isn't praying. Sometimes, that is the best option.


I would like to add to the excellent posts above.

*When a BS first finds out (d-day) he/she should take (in most cases) a very strong stand that includes severe consequences if R is the goal. *The consequences should not be based in hate or vengeance but as a very strong attempt to provide accountably and to knock them out of the fog.

One such consequence I took was to divorce immediately and then allow for the WS to prove their remorse and repentance by ACTIONS for a long time. This is only applicable if the WS wants to R. If the WS proves with actions for a long time that they truly are remorseful and have turned 180 away from their fog then you can always remarry. This is just one way there are many other ways to promote accountability.

The crises of infidelity can also be used to help the BS. Because marriages are in need of improvement for most pre-infidelity occurrences, this post-A crises can be a time that will motivate the BS to improve in areas that have been harmful. In other words the infidelity can be used to improve both partners. I am not saying that infidelity is good as every one knows that it is horrible; what I am saying is that you can use the horrible experience to improve in areas that are harmful to yourself and your WS.


In some cases the BS has, during the pre-A period, been so failing in doing their part to nourish the relationship that they have weakened the other partner. That partner that has been weakened then compounds the problem by not taking the right actions but going into an affair. The WS is 100% responsible for making the choice to have an affair and there is no justification or excuse that will suffice, However, *if there is the case where the BS treated the WS like Shyt during the pre-A period then lets not pretend that the WS was not weakened by the BS actions.*


One of my main points is that we both, WS and BS, admit that we have an opportunity POST-A to make improvements whether we R or D. For those of you that did nothing wrong pre-A yet your spouse got into an affair, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU!



SUMMARY


*BS to take very strong actions right after D-Day without haltered or vengeance

BS and WS, in the case of a real R, admit your failings pre-A, take actions to improve your failings*


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Maricha75 said:


> The Christian way is also to pray that she wakes up and does the right thing. Just because someone walks away from an unhealthy situation doesn't mean the person isn't praying. Sometimes, that is the best option.


I will continue to pray for Zanne but I will no longer freely offer my advice or follow her posts. At some point witnessing the continuing devastation begins to take its toll. Before I become totally jaded and apathetic I have to avert my eyes to her carnage.


----------



## jim123

EI said:


> I completely disagree with this. It isn't up to the BS's, or the fWS's, of TAM to determine whether or not a fWS is remorseful. There is only one person whose opinion matters regarding the sincerity and remorsefulness of any WS, and that would be their own BS, and not anyone else's BS. The "opinions" of anonymous strangers on the internet are like a$$holes, everyone has one, none of them are, particularly, special.
> 
> There are a few BS's on TAM who, despite both my and B1's repeated comments to the contrary, continue to insist that I am not genuinely remorseful. They insist that I blame my BS for my decision to have an A. We have both been sharing our story, with extreme candidness, on TAM, for over two years, now. We began doing so just 2.5 weeks after D-Day. I have been accused of rewriting our marital history, although my husband has repeatedly backed up every single detail that I've written as being accurate. And, he has written it from his own perspective, as well. Since our story has been told ad nauseam in CWI, I will not rehash it, here. I will simply say, that because we have chosen to share our "whole story," including the issues in our pre-A marriage, the A, the immediate aftermath of D-Day, and our reconciliation, rather than just saying "I'm a worthless cheater, do with me what you will," it doesn't sit well with certain BS's.
> 
> I do know that no matter what the issues were in our marriage, that choosing to cope with them by having an affair was wrong. That is a choice that I made that will hurt both of us for the rest of our lives. B1 is not responsible for how I chose to cope with a marriage that was already broken long before my A began, but he was responsible for many things that contributed to the destruction of our pre-A marriage, and he and I are well aware of what they were.
> 
> In choosing to R, we had to examine the "whole picture." I often read on TAM that the choice to R or divorce is solely up to the BS. But, that's incorrect. A BS cannot R with an unwilling WS. A WS cannot R with an unwilling BS. A BS can divorce their WS, with or without their approval, just as a WS can divorce their BS, with or without their approval. The point is, we all have choices. We all count. If either of us didn't believe that the other counted, we wouldn't be together, today. It wouldn't be healthy for either one of us.
> 
> I do find it rather bizarre, that there are a few BS's on TAM who continue to rage on and on, in thread after thread, about the authenticity of our R. Even going so far as to make demeaning and demoralizing comments to my husband, who used to post here, as well. He still does on the rare occasion, but he lost interest when a certain group of posters started thread jacking, thread after thread, with their purpose being to rage against the WS's, (whom "they" had determined were not remorseful) rather than their desire to heal, grow, and rise above the devastation caused by their own broken relationships. B1 and I had a very dysfunctional marriage for many years. After 30 years of marriage, we are now happier than we have ever been.
> 
> Anyone who continues to insist that "they" have some special all knowing powers to judge the authenticity of others, especially after having heard both sides of the story, and knowing that the stories match, really does have bigger problems that they need to be focusing on.
> 
> This is the result of our reconciliation.
> 
> June 21, 2014 (two days before our 30 wedding anniversary)


Great post as always. I do not know why people do not understand you have to heal too.


----------



## Mr Blunt

The picture above shows what I was talking about in my last post. B1 and EI were in my mind when I made my post. B1 did not nourish EI and in fact it was more like he starved her for her nourishment. EI made a terrible mistake with her choices but both EI and B1 have worked very hard at improving in many areas and the picture above reveals the results.

That picture shows a FAMILY BACK TOGETHER and supporting each other. The healing that has occurred so far can be seen on the face of EI and the proof that it is real is the wedding that took place a few months ago.


Not only has B1 and EI taken the right actions to kick Mr. Infidelity in the AZZ but they did it while having other problems that have nothing to do with Infidelity. I know that these two people are the salt of the earth and they make for a very good study on what to do in the case of infidelity. They both have enough posts on this TAM web site that covers a whole lot of right actions to take. Both are very honest and open and *if you (BSs and WSs) do not learn something from them then you just want to complain and not take the right actions to get better!*


----------



## bfree

What I love about EI and B1 is that they not only share their successes but are open about their failures as well. For this they should be lauded and not condemned or disparaged.


----------



## jim123

bfree said:


> What I love about EI and B1 is that they not only share their successes but are open about their failures as well. For this they should be lauded and not condemned or disparaged.



They were built from failure. Rose from ashes. Not even Disney could have dreamt this.

Kudos to them. Few have what they have. Anything can be possible.


----------



## Rookie4

Maricha75 said:


> You can only try just do much, and for just do long. At some point, the futility becomes apparent. At that point, most give up. The constructive advice is presented. Advice is not taken. In fact, the opposite is done. It's at that point when those who have tried, for years, give up. And new people come on, not knowing the back story, and say "don't give up! (S)he just needs understanding!" Or something to that effect. And the new crop tries for two years... same result. The cycle needs to be broken.
> 
> Zanne is one who was given excellent advice for two years, that I know of for certain. She did the opposite, all while lamenting about how horrible things were and saying how wonderful the OM is. OM. A married coward who hooked up with a married woman on a marriage support forum. Sorry, but no. She was given time. She chose the opposite path, knowing full well what she is doing.


You don't have to help, if you don't want to, but that doesn't mean that I or others can't try.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> A lost soul she may be but stil a choice she is making. And that choice is keeping her husband lied to, used and in the dark.
> 
> My prayers would go toward him


Mine go to both.


----------



## Duguesclin

I guess it could be an interesting discussion who deserves more compassion. Or who _needs_ more?

Who is the person with greater need? I think it is Zanne. She is lost. She is totally lost.

Shouldn't we wish for her husband to have her back? For her to come back, she has to _want_ to come back. The husband has to change, and Zanne has to believe in the change.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> Mine go to both.


Mine go to God. Praying that she comes clean. Praying that she drops her boyfriend. Praying that she goes to the interviews to get the job she says she needs very badly.

And then I pray that her husband do as God would have him do. He has grounds for divorce, if he so chooses, but he is not obligated to do so. I pray he works on improving things about himself which would fix OTHER aspects of the marriage. 

Above all else, I pray for God's will be done in their marriage. That is not giving up on them (as was implied by one or maybe more posters). That is recognizing my own limitations and the fact that getting to involved in another marriage can have significant repercussions on my own marriage.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Mr Blunt said:


> snip...
> 
> 
> SUMMARY
> 
> 
> *BS to take very strong actions right after D-Day without haltered or vengeance
> 
> BS and WS, in the case of a real R, admit your failings pre-A, take actions to improve your failings*


After the A, is really too late. When I read this, it made me think of justification for the affair. I believe there is no justification for an affair. I believe there is no reason good enough for an affair. 

It is a decision based on what the potential wayward spouse believes. Sometimes those things are false and sometimes not. Even physical abuse is no reason to have an affair. 

I would venture to say that is the worst time to hook up or have a relationship with another. The abused has to be all messed up mentally, emotionally an physically from the abuse. How can they make good decisions?

Yeah, I know this isn't popular opinion. And, I know, once the affair has happened, the only way to have a decent reconciliation is to admit to each other our failings. 

After the affair, it just proves how weak the wayward actually is when under pressure. If that is what you want to go back to, that is your choice. And, I do believe that's why so many say that anyone can have an affair. That may be true, but some will do all they can to avoid placing themselves in a situation that will tempt them when they know they are hurting. 

Talking to a potential sexual partner is one of the things to avoid. Going out among singles who are looking to hook up is another. Seems like that's easy to figure out, but I guess some of us don't get it. 

After the affair, will they get it then? Or, will you always be wondering if a difference of opinion or a task not completed on time, or a harsh word, or a day of wanting to be alone with hobbies to reenergize and renew will be the next trigger?


----------



## Wolf1974

Duguesclin said:


> I guess it could be an interesting discussion who deserves more compassion. Or who _needs_ more?
> 
> Who is the person with greater need? I think it is Zanne. She is lost. She is totally lost.
> 
> Shouldn't we wish for her husband to have her back? For her to come back, she has to _want_ to come back. The husband has to change, and Zanne has to believe in the change.


No he deserves to have the choice. And a choice he can never make so long as she never tells him what is going on. You can't do anything until th whole truth is on the table. Think we can all agree to that. And since she is the gate keeper to the truth she has to come clean on it. I stated as such to her not because I think she will really do it but several have stated here that the lies of the affair are what really hurts about an affair. I hope others cheating will see that.

And for some it would further degrade the chances of an reconciliation based on if they found out about the affair vs if they were told about it but the spouse. I don't see much of any chance for reconciliation with Zanne. I don't think she will come clean but will be caught. A terrible price to be paid. Hopefully then she will take some accountability


----------



## Duguesclin

Wolf1974 said:


> No he deserves to have the choice. And a choice he can never make so long as she never tells him what is going on. You can't do anything until th whole truth is on the table. Think we can all agree to that. And since she is the gate keeper to the truth she has to come clean on it. I stated as such to her not because I think she will really do it but several have stated here that the lies of the affair are what really hurts about an affair. I hope others cheating will see that.
> 
> And for some it would further degrade the chances of an reconciliation based on if they found out about the affair vs if they were told about it but the spouse. I don't see much of any chance for reconciliation with Zanne. I don't think she will come clean but will be caught. A terrible price to be paid. Hopefully then she will take some accountability


I think Zanne is lost, completely lost. She is in an uncontrollable downward spiral. The best person to get her out of that situation is her husband.

If we really want to save a marriage, we have to appeal to the stronger person in the marriage to help out. And I think the stronger person in Zanne's marriage is her husband.

To get the communication going, he will have to address the underlying issues that led to this affair. Thinking that Zanne is going to accept culpability and be responsible is unlikely to happen. She is too weak. 

She is in a path of self-destruction. She is committing social suicide. She does not care about herself. She is willing to do whatever to escape her reality, her depression.

If she were on a bridge, ready to jump, would you tell her how wrong she is, what a bad person she is? Wouldn't you instead try to get to her feelings, try to listen to her?

Zanne is on the bridge of life and she is jumping. It is past what is right and what is wrong. Trying to talk to her about right and wrong is just a waste of time. 

I think the only hope is to find a charitable soul willing to help her, and not use her. I wish it would be her husband.


----------



## Maricha75

And, Dug, her husband cannot do anything unless he knows the facts. Help her? Help himself? Either way, he cannot do anything unless she owns up to her affair. And, we cannot say for certain that he IS the stronger person in their marriage. They may well be equally broken, but in different ways.
And, one more thing bothers me... appeal to her husband to fix her? He cannot. My husband couldn't fix me. You cannot fix JLD (if she is broken in any way). You can support her, but you cannot fix her. My husband can support me, but cannot fix me. Zanne's husband can support her (IF HE SO CHOOSES, after getting all the facts!), but he cannot fix her.


----------



## Duguesclin

Maricha75 said:


> And, Dug, her husband cannot do anything unless he knows the facts. Help her? Help himself? Either way, he cannot do anything unless she owns up to her affair. And, we cannot say for certain that he IS the stronger person in their marriage. They may well be equally broken, but in different ways.
> And, one more thing bothers me... appeal to her husband to fix her? He cannot. My husband couldn't fix me. You cannot fix JLD (if she is broken in any way). You can support her, but you cannot fix her. My husband can support me, but cannot fix me. Zanne's husband can support her (IF HE SO CHOOSES, after getting all the facts!), but he cannot fix her.


I never said that he needs to fix her. He needs to help her, to support her. He has not provided the support that she needs.

My point is that someone needs to lead, and it is not Zanne who can do that.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Duguesclin said:


> I never said that he needs to fix her. He needs to help her, to support her. He has not provided the support that she needs.
> 
> My point is that someone needs to lead, and it is not Zanne who can do that.


And my point is how can he do anything without all the facts? He can't.

As for supporting her... well, we are not in agreement on this one. She had sex with another man, multiple times. He has no obligation to support her. Before she had sex with the coward who won't come forward, even to his own wife, I would have agreed with you. Now? He needs to acknowledge only the things he did/said that caused any of the breakdown. Not her choice in having sex with another man. Support her? Only if he wants to repair the marriage. And she actually needs to support HIM as well. Knowing she is having sex with another man likely will break him. And she will need to build him back up as well, IF he chooses to reconcile.


----------



## GusPolinski

Holy balls this thread has exploded.


----------



## Duguesclin

Well, I think her husband is part of the problem that has led to this affair. At a minimum he should address that.

And I don't believe that he doesn't know.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Duguesclin said:


> Well, *I think her husband is part of the problem that has led to this affair.* At a minimum he should address that.
> 
> And I don't believe that he doesn't know.


Sorry? Could you elaborate, please? This sounds remarkably close to saying "her affair is his fault!"... which is utter bullsh*t.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Don't engage Maricha. It's very obvious that you're not talking to dug.


----------



## Wolf1974

Maricha75 said:


> And, Dug, her husband cannot do anything unless he knows the facts. Help her? Help himself? Either way, he cannot do anything unless she owns up to her affair. And, we cannot say for certain that he IS the stronger person in their marriage. They may well be equally broken, but in different ways.
> And, one more thing bothers me... appeal to her husband to fix her? He cannot. My husband couldn't fix me. You cannot fix JLD (if she is broken in any way). You can support her, but you cannot fix her. My husband can support me, but cannot fix me. Zanne's husband can support her (IF HE SO CHOOSES, after getting all the facts!), but he cannot fix her.



:iagree:
Exactly. Let's not put the cart before the horse shall we


----------



## Wolf1974

Duguesclin said:


> Well, I think *her husband is part of the problem* that has led to this affair. At a minimum he should address that.
> 
> And I don't believe that he doesn't know.


And why do we know this? Cause Zanne has said so? Cause she of course is a beacon of truth


----------



## 2ntnuf

That's not the way I look at it. I believe her. I think he was part of the problem unless there is other evidence. 

Where we differ is, I think he was part of the problem for a bad marriage. One that needed repaired or discarded. 

I take the affairs as a separate decision. I don't associate an affair with a bad marriage because there are other choices like divorce or counseling, personal improvement, etc. 

I suppose there are some cases that the BS is not at fault(ETA: for some of the problems in the marriage), but I believe those are few.


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Re: To lurking Waywards*



WorkingOnMe said:


> Don't engage Maricha. It's very obvious that you're not talking to dug.


Yeah, don't take the bait, please, we would miss you


----------



## Duguesclin

Maricha75 said:


> Sorry? Could you elaborate, please? This sounds remarkably close to saying "her affair is his fault!"... which is utter bullsh*t.


I am not saying her affair is right. But if we keep my analogy about suicide, what do you tell someone who is ready to jump?

Just trying to understand where that person comes from, acknowledging her feelings, will start the healing. She has said, true or not, that her husband does not take care of her. That is her feeling. I do not know if it is true or not. But that is where you start. 

Listening does not mean you agree. Nor does it mean her affair is right.

Saying that she has to admit her guilt before any healing can happen is not going to work. She is lost. 

Assuming what she says about her husband is true, her affair does not make what her husband did right. So why not starting there?

Even if by an unlikely turn of events, she stops her affair and comes back to her husband, he still has to address his shortcomings. So why not starting now?

If you are interested in a solution, you have to look at everything.


----------



## pidge70




----------



## Wolf1974

pidge70 said:


>


You have the best illustrations lol


----------



## Paladin

So I've been thinking about Wolf's (and a few others) comments about being in a "happy" marriage before the infidelity occurred. I really want to understand this point of view, and why the people who express it seem to bristle so much when I said "A marriage can not be considered healthy, if one of the spouses is unhealthy enough to cheat."

I am wondering if there is a distinction between "healthy" and "happy." Is it possible to have a happy marriage with someone who is unhealthy? I think the answer to that is yes, based in part on Wolf's comments about his previous marriage, and in part on the comments of others who have spouses that suffer from various health issues. 

If there is no distinction between healthy and happy, and we accept at face value that infidelity can always occur in any marriage at any time, what is the point of taking vows that include "till death do us part." Would we not be better served by vows that say "till one of us cheats?" 

I have a hard time believing that infidelity can occur in a marriage where two people are fully committed to each other and to the work of making a marriage healthy. Take any of the success stories from TAM (mr/ms JA, Beowulf/morrigan, regret/somedaydig, B1/EI and many others) and ask yourself if you think its still possible for infidelity to occur there.

I know it is a complex and thought provoking subject. I understand those that talk about a BS looking for control in a situation that seems to have none by taking on responsibility/blame for the dysfunctional choices made by their spouse. In some cases that is actually what is going on, but in others, the BS is in earnest trying to examine the pathology of the breakdown to understand how to avoid it in the future, and if R is in the picture, the WS has to do the same. 

A marriage exists _between_ two individuals, and no amount of effort from just _one_ of those people is enough to make it healthy.

edit: @ Dug

Zeene would not and can not accept help from her husband on anything because of how she currently views him in her own head. She has objectified him and no longer views him as a human being. This type of compartmentalization is fairly common among people struggling with major addiction issues, and other disorders. She is in a self induced downward spiral, and until she hits rock bottom, she will not be reachable. In this case, and as crappy as this is going to sound, we have the luxury of letting her hit that bottom without worrying about her actual death (like with certain cases of addiction, where rock bottom is below what a human can survive). She will hurt the people around her, and herself, to a great degree, but I think there is no other way to reach her. I read through 200 pages of her actual thread, and it is very clear that she is incapable of seeing the situation from any point of view but her own. Helping her further is outside the scope of what TAM can do, and dealing with her further just serves to enable her by giving her attention.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Duguesclin said:


> I am not saying her affair is right. But if we keep my analogy about suicide, what do you tell someone who is ready to jump?


Jump!


....just not on my car


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Paladin said:


> So I've been thinking about Wolf's (and a few others) comments about being in a "happy" marriage before the infidelity occurred. I really want to understand this point of view, and why the people who express it seem to bristle so much when I said "A marriage can not be considered healthy, if one of the spouses is unhealthy enough to cheat."
> 
> I am wondering if there is a distinction between "healthy" and "happy." Is it possible to have a happy marriage with someone who is unhealthy? I think the answer to that is yes, based in part on Wolf's comments about his previous marriage, and in part on the comments of others who have spouses that suffer from various health issues.
> 
> If there is no distinction between healthy and happy, and we accept at face value that infidelity can always occur in any marriage at any time, what is the point of taking vows that include "till death do us part." Would we not be better served by vows that say "till one of us cheats?"
> 
> I have a hard time believing that infidelity can occur in a marriage where two people are fully committed to each other and to the work of making a marriage healthy. Take any of the success stories from TAM (mr/ms JA, Beowulf/morrigan, regret/somedaydig, B1/EI and many others) and ask yourself if you think its still possible for infidelity to occur there.
> 
> I know it is a complex and thought provoking subject. I understand those that talk about a BS looking for control in a situation that seems to have none by taking on responsibility/blame for the dysfunctional choices made by their spouse. In some cases that is actually what is going on, but in others, the BS is in earnest trying to examine the pathology of the breakdown to understand how to avoid it in the future, and if R is in the picture, the WS has to do the same.
> 
> A marriage exists _between_ two individuals, and no amount of effort from just _one_ of those people is enough to make it healthy.
> 
> edit: @ Dug
> 
> Zeene would not and can not accept help from her husband on anything because of how she currently views him in her own head. She has objectified him and no longer views him as a human being. This type of compartmentalization is fairly common among people struggling with major addiction issues, and other disorders. She is in a self induced downward spiral, and until she hits rock bottom, she will not be reachable. In this case, and as crappy as this is going to sound, we have the luxury of letting her hit that bottom without worrying about her actual death (like with certain cases of addiction, where rock bottom is below what a human can survive). She will hurt the people around her, and herself, to a great degree, but I think there is no other way to reach her. I read through 200 pages of her actual thread, and it is very clear that she is incapable of seeing the situation from any point of view but her own. Helping her further is outside the scope of what TAM can do, and dealing with her further just serves to enable her by giving her attention.


Interesting thoughts. Question...can a marriage be a good marriage and still be a little stale or boring? Can a marriage still be a good marriage if the couple don't have a date night, if one or the other is temporarily working a lot of hours, if one or the other is very sick? Because I've seen marriage where these situations occur through no fault of either party but infidelity is often the result. It's interesting what one calls healthy or happy.


----------



## Duguesclin

Paladin, what is rock bottom in her case? Homeless? Giving her body to be able to eat?

If it were my wife, even if she had an affair, I could not let the mother of my children go into destitution. That is why I think the husband is so important.

Even if he does not know right now, which I doubt, he will know sooner or later. I think he is the only one that can help her. Unless it is the children who will take that task over.

I do not think you can give up on anyone. Jesus protected the adulteress from stoning. He did not agree with what she did, but did not judge.


----------



## Maricha75

He also told her to "go and sin no more". We're not stoning Zanne, JLD...errr, DUG. We've told her the same thing Jesus told the woman... stop it. Stop having sex with men who are not your husband.


----------



## Wolf1974

bfree said:


> Interesting thoughts. Question...can a marriage be a good marriage and still be a little stale or boring? Can a marriage still be a good marriage if the couple don't have a date night, if one or the other is temporarily working a lot of hours, if one or the other is very sick? Because I've seen marriage where these situations occur through no fault of either party but infidelity is often the result. It's interesting what one calls healthy or happy.


Healthy can be a bit subjective. I think in marriage it means both parties contributing to and getting from: comfort, honesty, communication ,support, love, respect, admiration and so on.

Marriage also isn't stagnate. It ebbs and flows. Sometimes things are great or near perfect and other time hard. A marriage can start healthy and then end horribly. Or get horrible and then recover to healthy /good. It depends on the participants involved and what they are willing to give. Marriage isn't called work for nothing lol.


----------



## Thundarr

Paladin said:


> So I've been thinking about Wolf's (and a few others) comments about being in a "happy" marriage before the infidelity occurred. I really want to understand this point of view, and why the people who express it seem to bristle so much when I said "A marriage can not be considered healthy, if one of the spouses is unhealthy enough to cheat."
> 
> I am wondering if there is a distinction between "healthy" and "happy." Is it possible to have a happy marriage with someone who is unhealthy? I think the answer to that is yes, based in part on Wolf's comments about his previous marriage, and in part on the comments of others who have spouses that suffer from various health issues.
> 
> If there is no distinction between healthy and happy, and we accept at face value that infidelity can always occur in any marriage at any time, what is the point of taking vows that include "till death do us part." Would we not be better served by vows that say "till one of us cheats?"
> 
> *I have a hard time believing that infidelity can occur in a marriage where two people are fully committed to each other and to the work of making a marriage healthy.* Take any of the success stories from TAM (mr/ms JA, Beowulf/morrigan, regret/somedaydig, B1/EI and many others) and ask yourself if you think its still possible for infidelity to occur there.
> 
> I know it is a complex and thought provoking subject. I understand those that talk about a BS looking for control in a situation that seems to have none by taking on responsibility/blame for the dysfunctional choices made by their spouse. In some cases that is actually what is going on, but in others, the BS is in earnest trying to examine the pathology of the breakdown to understand how to avoid it in the future, and if R is in the picture, the WS has to do the same.
> 
> A marriage exists _between_ two individuals, and no amount of effort from just _one_ of those people is enough to make it healthy.
> 
> edit: @ Dug
> 
> Zeene would not and can not accept help from her husband on anything because of how she currently views him in her own head. She has objectified him and no longer views him as a human being. This type of compartmentalization is fairly common among people struggling with major addiction issues, and other disorders. She is in a self induced downward spiral, and until she hits rock bottom, she will not be reachable. In this case, and as crappy as this is going to sound, we have the luxury of letting her hit that bottom without worrying about her actual death (like with certain cases of addiction, where rock bottom is below what a human can survive). She will hurt the people around her, and herself, to a great degree, but I think there is no other way to reach her. I read through 200 pages of her actual thread, and it is very clear that she is incapable of seeing the situation from any point of view but her own. Helping her further is outside the scope of what TAM can do, and dealing with her further just serves to enable her by giving her attention.


Yes committed to each other and to the relationship is the key because it's a constant where happiness is fickle. But we still get into the scenario where partners are committed on different levels or to different things. We (humans) tend to think others share our values. It's quite easy for someone who values commitment to think everyone else does too. Only after some form of betrayal do we learn that the relationship partner or business partner or family member actually have a different set of values. Maybe the partner valued the butterflies and tingles and once that was gone then they checked out. I think that's why a lot of partners miss red flags. It's because those things are red flags based on their own way of thinking.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *Originally Posted by Mr Blunt*
> 
> snip...
> 
> 
> SUMMARY
> 
> 
> BS to take very strong actions right after D-Day without haltered or vengeance
> 
> BS and WS, in the case of a real R, admit your failings pre-A, take actions to improve your failings





2ntnuf

You quoted my summary then started your response with the following



> *By 2ntnuf*
> After the A, is really too late. When I read this,* it made me think of justification for the affair. *I believe there is no justification for an affair. I believe there is no reason good enough for an affair.



I am not really sure that I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that my summary promotes justification of an affair? Please explain


----------



## cpacan

Paladin said:


> So I've been thinking about Wolf's (and a few others) comments about being in a "happy" marriage before the infidelity occurred. I really want to understand this point of view, and why the people who express it seem to bristle so much when I said "A marriage can not be considered healthy, if one of the spouses is unhealthy enough to cheat."
> *If this is how you and those promoting this POV mean it, I have nothing against it - earlier in the thread it just seemed to me, that it was implied that it was always the BS who was flawed and to blame for any problem in the relationship.*
> 
> I am wondering if there is a distinction between "healthy" and "happy." Is it possible to have a happy marriage with someone who is unhealthy? I think the answer to that is yes, based in part on Wolf's comments about his previous marriage, and in part on the comments of others who have spouses that suffer from various health issues.
> 
> If there is no distinction between healthy and happy, and we accept at face value that infidelity can always occur in any marriage at any time, what is the point of taking vows that include "till death do us part." Would we not be better served by vows that say "till one of us cheats?"
> *I think many betrayed spouses ask this question as well, I know I do.*
> 
> I have a hard time believing that infidelity can occur in a marriage where two people are fully committed to each other and to the work of making a marriage healthy. Take any of the success stories from TAM (mr/ms JA, Beowulf/morrigan, regret/somedaydig, B1/EI and many others) and ask yourself if you think its still possible for infidelity to occur there.
> *Not many will argue this - it's quite obvious that one spouse isn't fully committed, otherwise they wouldn't cheat, would they?
> And yes, I also believe that all these marriages are vulnerable to infidelity again, like every other marriage. It's easier the second time around, if that's what the fWS wants. And only they them selves know what they truly want - today maybe one thing, and who knows what they want a few years ahead? I guess this holds true for the betrayed partner as well.*
> 
> I know it is a complex and thought provoking subject. I understand those that talk about a BS looking for control in a situation that seems to have none by taking on responsibility/blame for the dysfunctional choices made by their spouse. In some cases that is actually what is going on, but in others, the BS is in earnest trying to examine the pathology of the breakdown to understand how to avoid it in the future, and if R is in the picture, the WS has to do the same.
> 
> A marriage exists _between_ two individuals, and no amount of effort from just _one_ of those people is enough to make it healthy.
> 
> edit: @ Dug
> 
> Zeene would not and can not accept help from her husband on anything because of how she currently views him in her own head. She has objectified him and no longer views him as a human being. This type of compartmentalization is fairly common among people struggling with major addiction issues, and other disorders. She is in a self induced downward spiral, and until she hits rock bottom, she will not be reachable. In this case, and as crappy as this is going to sound, we have the luxury of letting her hit that bottom without worrying about her actual death (like with certain cases of addiction, where rock bottom is below what a human can survive). She will hurt the people around her, and herself, to a great degree, but I think there is no other way to reach her. I read through 200 pages of her actual thread, and it is very clear that she is incapable of seeing the situation from any point of view but her own. Helping her further is outside the scope of what TAM can do, and dealing with her further just serves to enable her by giving her attention.


Comments posted in bold above.

General comment as for Zannes situation, why don't you and those who wants to discuss her problems do that on her thread?


----------



## sidney2718

Maricha75 said:


> I don't disagree. At the same time I think we should be able to tell ones who are NOT remorseful that we can see it in the way they write. I mean, if a fWS can see it, I'd think it's not imaginary. And, they should drop the act if they truly are not remorseful. They do more harm than good when they come here, attempting to fake remorse. It causes more division on the board. And it really suckered when some of us can see through it and are lambasted for speaking up.


You make a good point except that NOBODY should be lambasted for anything. And speaking up can be done politely, but often isn't.


----------



## cpacan

I've been thinking quite a bit about the reasons the subject "problems in the marriage pre-affair" divides the forum. And I've changed my mind, I actually agree with Rookie, JLD, Sidney and who else claims that infidelity always prove that something was wrong in the marriage before it was nuked by infidelity.

I can see now, that you can always claim that something was wrong. "You worked too many hours and wasn't there for me"... well if you didn't work overtime, it would be "You don't make enough money to support your family". If you're into vanilla sex, you're boring and not dominant enough, if you're dominant, you're not considerate of your partner and not emotional enough. Either you're overweight, or you spend too much time in the gym - just to give you the idea.

The thing is, you'll always be able to point out the dark side of any trait, behaviour or situation. It's what often happens when guilt strikes and you look for justifications. You will always be able to find something, if that's what you want. And some people want to.

You can choose to focus on the light side, or you can focus on the dark side, your chocie. But If your partner chooses the dark side, you really can't win. If lurking waywards chooses the dark side, I think it's really hard to show them the light side, because they really need the justification.

Thoughts?


----------



## 2ntnuf

Mr Blunt said:


> 2ntnuf
> 
> You quoted my summary then started your response with the following
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not really sure that I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that my summary promotes justification of an affair? Please explain


That's what I thought. If it's not what you meant, I misunderstood your explanation.


----------



## sidney2718

Maricha75 said:


> Sorry? Could you elaborate, please? This sounds remarkably close to saying "her affair is his fault!"... which is utter bullsh*t.


Can we please stop allowing this one special case to jack this thread?


----------



## sidney2718

cpacan said:


> I've been thinking quite a bit about the reasons the subject "problems in the marriage pre-affair" divides the forum. And I've changed my mind, I actually agree with Rookie, JLD, Sidney and who else claims that infidelity always prove that something was wrong in the marriage before it was nuked by infidelity.
> 
> I can see now, that you can always claim that something was wrong. "You worked too many hours and wasn't there for me"... well if you didn't work overtime, it would be "You don't make enough money to support your family". If you're into vanilla sex, you're boring and not dominant enough, if you're dominant, you're not considerate of your partner and not emotional enough. Either you're overweight, or you spend too much time in the gym - just to give you the idea.
> 
> The thing is, you'll always be able to point out the dark side of any trait, behaviour or situation. It's what often happens when guilt strikes and you look for justifications. You will always be able to find something, if that's what you want. And some people want to.
> 
> You can choose to focus on the light side, or you can focus on the dark side, your chocie. But If your partner chooses the dark side, you really can't win. If lurking waywards chooses the dark side, I think it's really hard to show them the light side, because they really need the justification.
> 
> Thoughts?


Yes. There are no simple solutions or simple explanations. You can always find something wrong. Which is why being able to find something wrong isn't a justification for infidelity.

But what it does do for me is to change my view of marriage. Marriage for me is not an act or an event. It is always a work in progress. And like any other work in progress it can go wrong.

But because it is a work in progress we married folks need to always be on the lookout for the signs of something wrong. We need to listen when being spoken to. We need to have serious discussions when the need for income that keeps one spouse working long hours runs into the need for companionship and time spent together.

There is never a time in a marriage when one can simply sit back and say "all is fine". 

And even with this there will always be cheating. Cheating isn't a modern phenomenon. It has gone on throughout human history for both biological and sociological reasons. It isn't a matter of going back to the "good old days" because there never were any "good old days" when it came to infidelity.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



sidney2718 said:


> Can we please stop allowing this one special case to jack this thread?


While I was, specifically, addressing that one person, the same principle can be applied to others. I do, however, have no problem ending a thread jack about Zanne. I hope JLD... I mean Dug, will do the same.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *
> By 2ntnuf*
> After the A, is really too late. *When I read this, it made me think of justification for the affair.* I believe there is no justification for an affair. I believe there is no reason good enough for an affair.
> 
> 
> 
> By Blunt
> I am not really sure that I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that my summary promotes justification of an affair? Please explain
> 
> By 2ntnuf
> That's what I thought. If it's not what you meant, I misunderstood your explanation.



Reprinted below are the exact words that I posted



> *The WS is 100% responsible for making the choice to have an affair and there is no justification or excuse that will suffice.*


2ntnuf
Where in my post did I Justify the affair?


----------



## 2ntnuf

Mr Blunt said:


> Reprinted below are the exact words that I posted
> 
> 
> 
> 2ntnuf
> Where in my post did I Justify the affair?


 "admit your failings pre-A"


Even though your prior post led me to believe the opposite, your summary statement using this phrase, led me to believe that you were justifying the affair by pre-A failings. I read contradiction in that.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

cpacan said:


> I can see now, that you can always claim that something was wrong. "You worked too many hours and wasn't there for me"... well if you didn't work overtime, it would be "You don't make enough money to support your family". If you're into vanilla sex, you're boring and not dominant enough, if you're dominant, you're not considerate of your partner and not emotional enough. Either you're overweight, or you spend too much time in the gym - just to give you the idea.
> 
> The thing is, you'll always be able to point out the dark side of any trait, behaviour or situation. It's what often happens when guilt strikes and you look for justifications. You will always be able to find something, if that's what you want. And some people want to.
> 
> You can choose to focus on the light side, or you can focus on the dark side, your chocie. But If your partner chooses the dark side, you really can't win. If lurking waywards chooses the dark side, I think it's really hard to show them the light side, because they really need the justification.


I agree. This is where it gets difficult though, because as you say, the WS often needs to justify the infidelity, but unless they are very careful about their intent and with their words, and really do want to R for genuine reasons, it can easily come across to the BS as being their fault.

I think that often the WS doesn't realise just how sensitive and destroyed the BS is, just the betrayal alone causes so much damage to the BS sense of self-worth, that heaping apparent justifications for the betrayal onto the BS is not conducive to R right from the get go. 

I think that's why R's are sometimes not really successful. The WS just cannot understand the extent of the hurt and damage that the BS feels. 

IF they can really get that, and IF they are genuinely wanting R and are prepared to do all the "right" things, then there is some room for hope.

But if all they can focus on is the dark side as you put it, and the BS falls for that and starts to blame themselves for the infidelity, even just a tiny bit, then I don't hold out a lot of hope for a long term and truly healthy recovery.

By the same token, the BS, if they truly want a genuine and complete R, must be prepared to listen fully to the WS and be scrupulously honest with themselves about what the WS is saying to them about their feelings pre-affair, deeply searching their own hearts and minds as to wether the WS has a real grievance or not, and if is so, dealing with that as it should be dealt with, by honesty, real deep communication and perhaps MC/IC.

If the BS feels it isn't a genuine grievance and the WS is still adamant that it is, then the BS needs to be 100% realistic about the situation they are in, take the bulls by the horn, realise that maybe they are just not compatible anymore and it's unfortunately time to call it quits.


----------



## soulpotato

2ntnuf said:


> "admit your failings pre-A"
> 
> 
> Even though your prior post led me to believe the opposite, your summary statement using this phrase, led me to believe that you were justifying the affair by pre-A failings. I read contradiction in that.


I read, "If you want to R, issues/failings on both sides have to be addressed." Call me crazy, but I just see reality there, not justification. If there were already problems in the relationship, they have to be fixed in order to have a successful R and a healthy relationship. You can't have just one person fixing things or just one person being heard. At some point, it has to be both. We're talking in the event of reconciliation.

One ought to be able to talk about what's necessary for the health of the relationship without it being misconstrued as justification, etc.


----------



## soulpotato

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> By the same token, the BS, if they truly want a genuine and complete R, must be prepared to listen fully to the WS and be scrupulously honest with themselves about what the WS is saying to them about their feelings pre-affair, deeply searching their own hearts and minds as to wether the WS has a real grievance or not, and if is so, dealing with that as it should be dealt with, by honesty, real deep communication and perhaps MC/IC.


:iagree: (I think that MC and IC are a must.)


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By blunt
> Quote:
> The WS is 100% responsible for making the choice to have an affair and there is no justification or excuse that will suffice.
> 
> Where in my post did I Justify the affair?
> 
> *By 2ntnuf*
> admit your failings pre-A"
> 
> 
> Even though your prior post led me to believe the opposite, your summary statement using this phrase, led me to believe that you were justifying the affair by pre-A failings. I read contradiction in that.
> 
> 
> 
> BS and WS, in the case of a real R, admit your failings pre-A, take actions to improve your failings


The context that the above statement is applying to is the case where the BS had some failing prior to the A. although I made it very clear that the A is on the WS, I am referring to a couple that is in R. In that R it is best that the BS and the WS take advantage of the crises to improve the failing that were pre-A in order to secure the R and have a better relationship.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Mr Blunt said:


> The context that the above statement is applying to is the case where the BS had some failing prior to the A. although I made it very clear that the A is on the WS, I am referring to a couple that is in R. In that R it is best that the BS and the WS take advantage of the crises to improve the failing that were pre-A in order to secure the R and have a better relationship.


Agreed.


----------



## Rookie4

cpacan said:


> I've been thinking quite a bit about the reasons the subject "problems in the marriage pre-affair" divides the forum. And I've changed my mind, I actually agree with Rookie, JLD, Sidney and who else claims that infidelity always prove that something was wrong in the marriage before it was nuked by infidelity.
> 
> I can see now, that you can always claim that something was wrong. "You worked too many hours and wasn't there for me"... well if you didn't work overtime, it would be "You don't make enough money to support your family". If you're into vanilla sex, you're boring and not dominant enough, if you're dominant, you're not considerate of your partner and not emotional enough. Either you're overweight, or you spend too much time in the gym - just to give you the idea.
> 
> The thing is, you'll always be able to point out the dark side of any trait, behaviour or situation. It's what often happens when guilt strikes and you look for justifications. You will always be able to find something, if that's what you want. And some people want to.
> 
> You can choose to focus on the light side, or you can focus on the dark side, your chocie. But If your partner chooses the dark side, you really can't win. If lurking waywards chooses the dark side, I think it's really hard to show them the light side, because they really need the justification.
> 
> Thoughts?


This goes right along with what I said about my feelings of guilt for the state of my pre-affair marriage. At the time of the affair, I would have been like Wolf and some others , believing that I had a good marriage and was doing my part to make it so. Immediately after the affair, I was as angry and disillusioned as most BS' are, and felt blindsided . Why would she do this to me? Everything was going great, what went wrong?. After a couple of years, I began to look back on my behavior pre-affair, and realized that The marriage, in my eyes, was a different animal ,than the one my wife saw. I began to view it dispassionately and realized that my greed and ambition had soured it for her, while I was so sure that I was doing it for US, I was in reality, doing it for ME.


----------



## 2ntnuf

soulpotato said:


> I read, "If you want to R, issues/failings on both sides have to be addressed." Call me crazy, but I just see reality there, not justification. If there were already problems in the relationship, they have to be fixed in order to have a successful R and a healthy relationship. You can't have just one person fixing things or just one person being heard. At some point, it has to be both. We're talking in the event of reconciliation.
> 
> One ought to be able to talk about what's necessary for the health of the relationship without it being misconstrued as justification, etc.


Not sure how you concluded all of that, but okay. 

I do agree that all issues have to be worked on. I do agree there were problems within the marriage before the affair. I do agree that those problems in most marriages, but not all, are due to issues that both spouses have.

I was just answering the question. I answered honestly. The rest is what you assume I believe.


----------



## Anon Pink

I haven't read all 2000 posts, but I've read several, enough. I haven't had an affair but I've threatened to.

One March morning about 5 years ago I told my husband I couldn't decide if I should have an affair or just get a divorce. Not a great way to begin a conversation about the pathetic state of the marriage, to say the least!

He was blindsided, angry, hurt.... Bla bla bla. Had NO idea how bitterly unhappy I was with our relationship. He spent the next 4 years doing his best to invalidate most everything I talked about, defending himself by pointing out so and so, and rationalizing, minimizing and excusing...

IF I had had an affair, he'd be right in here with this group insisting everything was great, we were happy, we had a great life and she threw it all away. 

A lousy marriage isn't what causes an affair, but it sure does make it easier to justify it in the mind of someone thinking about it.


----------



## soulpotato

2ntnuf said:


> Not sure how you concluded all of that, but okay.
> 
> I do agree that all issues have to be worked on. I do agree there were problems within the marriage before the affair. I do agree that those problems in most marriages, but not all, are due to issues that both spouses have.
> 
> I was just answering the question. I answered honestly. The rest is what you assume I believe.


I'm just sharing my interpretations and thoughts.  I do my best to try not to assume too much.


----------



## Wolf1974

Anon Pink said:


> I haven't read all 2000 posts, but I've read several, enough. I haven't had an affair but I've threatened to.
> 
> One March morning about 5 years ago I told my husband I couldn't decide if I should have an affair or just get a divorce. Not a great way to begin a conversation about the pathetic state of the marriage, to say the least!
> 
> He was blindsided, angry, hurt.... Bla bla bla. Had NO idea how bitterly unhappy I was with our relationship. He spent the next 4 years doing his best to invalidate most everything I talked about, defending himself by pointing out so and so, and rationalizing, minimizing and excusing...
> 
> IF I had had an affair, he'd be right in here with this group insisting everything was great, we were happy, we had a great life and she threw it all away.
> 
> A lousy marriage isn't what causes an affair, but it sure does make it easier to justify it in the mind of someone thinking about it.


Least you stated you were unhappy. Gave him information. More than some do


----------



## 2ntnuf

Anon Pink said:


> I haven't read all 2000 posts, but I've read several, enough. I haven't had an affair but I've threatened to.
> 
> One March morning about 5 years ago I told my husband I couldn't decide if I should have an affair or just get a divorce. Not a great way to begin a conversation about the pathetic state of the marriage, to say the least!
> 
> He was blindsided, angry, hurt.... Bla bla bla. Had NO idea how bitterly unhappy I was with our relationship. He spent the next 4 years doing his best to invalidate most everything I talked about, defending himself by pointing out so and so, and rationalizing, minimizing and excusing...
> 
> IF I had had an affair, he'd be right in here with this group insisting everything was great, we were happy, we had a great life and she threw it all away.
> 
> A lousy marriage isn't what causes an affair, but it sure does make it easier to justify it in the mind of someone thinking about it.


Anon,

What was it that made you decide to come forward with your feelings instead of having an affair and justifying it with the problems you saw in your marriage?


----------



## 2xloser

I have stayed out of this discussion due to all the in-fighting, but i've got to just vent on the OP topic itself, and then get back out.

From my stbxww's email to her bff when she found her first potential OM during a girl's weekend I sent her on for her 40th bday:

"Why is it a week ago I felt like I had everything, no complaints - and yet now all of a sudden I feel trapped? To make it even worse, 2xloser had to leave very early for work this morning, and left me the most wonderful card. Talk about feeling guilty..."

I am not so ignorant as to be saying I was anything near perfect -- nobody is -- but then again neither was she, not by a long shot. Yet I didn't cheat... so if infidelity marriages are broken, why don't both partners then cheat? To me, that's what it comes down to. All the talk of BS contributions imho just avoids the real issue.

Stepping back away.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

2xloser said:


> I am not so ignorant as to be saying I was anything near perfect -- nobody is -- but then again neither was she, not by a long shot. *Yet I didn't cheat... so if infidelity marriages are broken, why don't both partners then cheat?* To me, that's what it comes down to. All the talk of BS contributions imho just avoids the real issue.


Because:

_"Between stimulus and response, man has the freedom to choose." Viktor Frankl._

...and in that freedom, one partner will choose the left hand fork in the road, the other partner will choose the right.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> This goes right along with what I said about my feelings of guilt for the state of my pre-affair marriage. At the time of the affair, I would have been like Wolf and some others , believing that I had a good marriage and was doing my part to make it so. Immediately after the affair, I was as angry and disillusioned as most BS' are, and felt blindsided . Why would she do this to me? Everything was going great, what went wrong?. After a couple of years, I began to look back on my behavior pre-affair, and realized that The marriage, in my eyes, was a different animal ,than the one my wife saw. I began to view it dispassionately and realized that my greed and ambition had soured it for her, while I was so sure that I was doing it for US, I was in reality, doing it for ME.


Rookie, as you know I am familiar with your story. But I was not present in your marriage so I cannot know the extent of your contributions to the state of your marriage pre A. It certainly sounds to my ears that your marriage was no different than many (most) marriages and that while it may have been slightly ill it certainly wasn't terminal. I'd like to respectfully ask a question and try honestly to answer it if you will. Do you feel guilt about your contributions to the state of your marriage or do you think the bulk of your guilt stems from the failed reconciliation? I know you've written at length about how much work your ex put in to "win you back." It seems to me that were I in your position I would have more guilt about the failed R and the circumstances surrounding that than the relatively small contributions to the dysfunction of the original marriage. If I were in your shoes the failed R would very much cloud my sight when analyzing my marriage through the lens of hindsight.


----------



## 2ntnuf

What this whole thread seems to support is the fact that if the BS does the proper things within the marriage to conform to the ideas the fWs has surrounding what a marriage should look like, there is a much less likely chance of infidelity recurring. 

I find that to be very similar to extortion. If the two of you are not compatible, then you are not compatible. Yes, each has his/her own faults and those need to be worked on. Yes, everyone's marriage can get a little or a lot better. 

In the end, one of you cheats when the chips are down and the other doesn't. That's the fact. You really aren't compatible. Are you? Two people who use infidelity as a means to an end need to be together, since they will understand each other best. Two who do not cheat, but rather divorce or work on the marriage as a means to an end, need to be together. This is my reasoning behind divorce in many cases. 

It's incompatibility at it's worst. You can't change the core reason for being unfaithful. You can only concede that it wasn't the best choice for the marriage you were in at the time. That's why few WS seem to understand the BS. 

Anyway, I think you are trying to put humpty dumpty back together again when you attempt to get a non and a cheater to reconcile. Neither individual will ever reach the full potential of their happiness and satisfaction within that marriage.

That in turn leads to open marriages, and business-like relationships where it seems the couple stays together for some unknown reasons and silently suffers while proclaiming the joys of marriage. I think it's a sham.


----------



## soulpotato

2xloser said:


> I am not so ignorant as to be saying I was anything near perfect -- nobody is -- but then again neither was she, not by a long shot. Yet I didn't cheat... so if infidelity marriages are broken, why don't both partners then cheat? To me, that's what it comes down to. All the talk of BS contributions imho just avoids the real issue.
> 
> Stepping back away.


Because we're all different people with different backgrounds, and we all cope differently. The people who don't cheat cope with their problems in healthier ways (or if it's unhealthy, it's something like drinking, smoking, or something more acceptable, even in excess). Those of us who cheat in some way usually seem to have some internal demons to conquer, brokenness to address. We cope in really unhealthy ways.

Talking about BS contributions to the health or sickness of the relationship IS important (especially if you have TWO broken people, which is being overlooked as a possibility for some reason), but only if the couple chooses to reconcile.


----------



## Maricha75

SP, I think you hit on something, there. Sometimes both are broken, in different ways. One will hole up inside himself/herself, while the other cheats. Or one may drink excessively while the other withers. Either way, it's unhealthy. And I do wonder why this hasn't been addressed.


----------



## soulpotato

2ntnuf said:


> What this whole thread seems to support is the fact that if the BS does the proper things within the marriage to conform to the ideas the fWs has surrounding what a marriage should look like, there is a much less likely chance of infidelity recurring.


I think some of us are actually talking about what is needed for a healthy relationship. Human beings, even fWSs, have real needs, and relationships require certain things to be sustainable. Any therapist or MC will tell you that. It's not just "random stuff to see if the BS will do it". It's not terms being dictated, it's two people needing to make certain contributions in order to have a functional relationship. 



2ntnuf said:


> I find that to be very similar to extortion. If the two of you are not compatible, then you are not compatible. Yes, each has his/her own faults and those need to be worked on. Yes, everyone's marriage can get a little or a lot better.


It's not about compatibility. Relationships take some amount of work. I've read a variety of relationship books and articles that allude to this idea of "things should just work because we're compatible!"/"we should give up because things aren't magically working and therefore we're incompatible!" and how it's unrealistic and damaging.



2ntnuf said:


> In the end, one of you cheats when the chips are down and the other doesn't. That's the fact. You really aren't compatible. Are you? Two people who use infidelity as a means to an end need to be together, since they will understand each other best. Two who do not cheat, but rather divorce or work on the marriage as a means to an end, need to be together. This is my reasoning behind divorce in many cases.


One cheat_ed_. He/she does not have to continue that course. Yes, they can be compatible, but you are missing something that might interfere with that. People can have a basic compatibility, but their individual damages and issues (pre-existing) can keep them from having the relationship they could have until said issues are dealt with. That's what therapy is for. Problems can be fixed. I don't think it makes sense to say that only people who have cheated can or should be together (or people who have not). That is certainly not a basis for understanding another human being, nor does it mean they are compatible. 



2ntnuf said:


> It's incompatibility at it's worst. You can't change the core reason for being unfaithful. You can only concede that it wasn't the best choice for the marriage you were in at the time. That's why few WS seem to understand the BS.


Yes, you can change it, actually. A fWS can address those internal breaks and heal them so that they can make better choices in the future, choices that don't involve being unfaithful.



2ntnuf said:


> Anyway, I think you are trying to put humpty dumpty back together again when you attempt to get a non and a cheater to reconcile. Neither individual will ever reach the full potential of their happiness and satisfaction within that marriage.


It's ultimately a matter of choice. No one can force a couple to R. And some of us would rather work on the thing that has been cracked/broken than to go find some other random, unblemished one. And that obviously includes the BSs who R or want to R, too. (You can't know that. Lots of things are possible. Just look at B1 and EI, and other couples that have successfully reconciled. They sure seem like they've reached their full potential, happiness, and satisfaction, despite the infidelity. I'm not saying it's easy or even the most likely outcome, but it happens.)



2ntnuf said:


> That in turn leads to open marriages, and business-like relationships where it seems the couple stays together for some unknown reasons and silently suffers while proclaiming the joys of marriage. I think it's a sham.


I don't know, maybe in some cases, but I can't agree on the whole. I do think there is a time to let go if things aren't working. If a BS can't love again and isn't able to heal or enjoy life with their fWS, then it seems it is better for that BS to move on to someone they can have a better relationship with.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Soul,

So much of what you said made me think. I thank you for that. I just disagree with much of that and don't want to argue anymore. 

Some of what you are using to refute my statements are concerning things which are much less important in the area of compatibility than infidelity. Please realize that is going to be the case in most self-help books. Anything as serious as infidelity, needs counseling to really find out if there is enough left between the two to have a worthwhile chance at reconciliation. 

I think many of those books are just referring to how the laundry is done or the household chores are divided. That's where they are best used. Only some of them are good enough to help with infidelity. Those are likely the cases where both have been unfaithful. It makes the two much more compatible. The rest of the issues can then be worked on with renewed vigor and enthusiasm. 

No, I really didn't mean this post to be snarky. It's tough to keep it from reading that way. I think there's a lot of snake oil being sold and the easiest ways to get through all of this are overlooked. Usually, those are the least painful. You see, once the BS realizes what the WS wants them to understand surrounding the infidelity, it seems like it would be best to find out who would be more compatible. 

The door has opened and you are free. You can take that opportunity or you can go backward to what you know is going to happen. 

I don't believe it is ever over. It's not murder. It's sex. The only way to get that to seem like murder, is to cause the WS to believe what the BS does. It took growing up in a certain environment and having certain life experiences to do that. It's extremely unlikely to happen, it it's even possible.


----------



## soulpotato

Maricha75 said:


> SP, I think you hit on something, there. Sometimes both are broken, in different ways. One will hole up inside himself/herself, while the other cheats. Or one may drink excessively while the other withers. Either way, it's unhealthy. And I do wonder why this hasn't been addressed.


Yes! This was definitely the case in my relationship.


----------



## Anon Pink

Wolf1974 said:


> Least you stated you were unhappy. Gave him information. More than some do


Several years before I made that statement, we were in MC, that did NOTHING! A few years later, while pregnant with my third we got in a fight and I told him I wanted him to move out.

He knew. He just refused to acknowledge and preferred to believe his wife didn't know what she was taking about. Invalidating, minimizing, excusing...in his mind, we were a very happy couple.



2ntnuf said:


> Anon,
> 
> What was it that made you decide to come forward with your feelings instead of having an affair and justifying it with the problems you saw in your marriage?


Fear prevented an affair. Fear that his detatched emotional state was indeed all in my head and I was indeed crazy for not seeing how great we were. Fear that if my own husband didn't make me feel loved, how could anyone else? Fear that on some level my husband's inability to show deeper feelings for me meant that he didn't HAVE deeper feelings for me and therefor no one else would either. Not to mention a few other things like being scared of men in general.... That kinda puts a damper on affairs...


----------



## 2ntnuf

Anon Pink said:


> Fear prevented an affair. Fear that his detatched emotional state was indeed all in my head and I was indeed crazy for not seeing how great we were. Fear that if my own husband didn't make me feel loved, how could anyone else? Fear that on some level my husband's inability to show deeper feelings for me meant that he didn't HAVE deeper feelings for me and therefor no one else would either. Not to mention a few other things like being scared of men in general.... That kinda puts a damper on affairs...


What brought you out of that fearful state?


----------



## Anon Pink

2ntnuf said:


> What brought you out of that fearful state?


:lol:

I'll let you know when it happens!


----------



## soulpotato

2ntnuf said:


> Soul,
> So much of what you said made me think. I thank you for that. I just disagree with much of that and don't want to argue anymore.


I'm glad. I'm really not trying to argue, I just want to share a different point of view as I have strong feelings on the subject as well.



2ntnuf said:


> Some of what you are using to refute my statements are concerning things which are much less important in the area of compatibility than infidelity. Please realize that is going to be the case in most self-help books. Anything as serious as infidelity, needs counseling to really find out if there is enough left between the two to have a worthwhile chance at reconciliation.


Well, it may be much less important to some, but I still think those things are vital. Of course infidelity needs counseling. I agree with that, and even recently said it on this thread - that IC and MC should definitely happen once infidelity enters the picture.



2ntnuf said:


> I think many of those books are just referring to how the laundry is done or the household chores are divided. That's where they are best used. Only some of them are good enough to help with infidelity. Those are likely the cases where both have been unfaithful. It makes the two much more compatible. The rest of the issues can then be worked on with renewed vigor and enthusiasm.


No, they were mostly talking about emotional contributions, not doing the chores/laundry. I have books that only address infidelity as well. I think both things need to be dealt with - the fallout from the infidelity and any relationship issues. 



2ntnuf said:


> No, I really didn't mean this post to be snarky. It's tough to keep it from reading that way. I think there's a lot of snake oil being sold and the easiest ways to get through all of this are overlooked. Usually, those are the least painful. You see, once the BS realizes what the WS wants them to understand surrounding the infidelity, it seems like it would be best to find out who would be more compatible.


Well, just because we disagree doesn't mean that my (or other) viewpoints are invalid or "less than".  The easiest way isn't always the best way or the right way for everyone. Certainly anyone can take the easiest way, and it doesn't always lead to a good place.** Any BS is free to walk away from their fWS, but if they want to stay and try to make things work...well, that's what R is for. I am an R-minded person, as are some others on this thread, so that's where we speak from. But if someone wants to divorce or leave, I respect that, too. Sometimes it is the best thing to do. _**Thinking "the easiest/least painful way is the best way" is the kind of thing that no doubt got some of us fWSs in trouble in the first place. Though I doubt most of us though of it that way at the time. That is not to say that leaving or divorce and the lead-up to that is any easier than R, they're just different._



2ntnuf said:


> The door has opened and you are free. You can take that opportunity or you can go backward to what you know is going to happen.


Not sure if you mean this generally or specifically, but I'll go ahead and answer. Free of what? Freedom is not what I wanted. I may not be able to get what I really want. But I will do the work to support that possibility and make it more likely. If it doesn't happen, then so be it, but that is what I choose. I don't believe that one can ever know exactly what is going to happen, especially while changing. Too many variables. I don't feel I've gone backwards at any point since I began this journey.



2ntnuf said:


> I don't believe it is ever over. It's not murder. It's sex. The only way to get that to seem like murder, is to cause the WS to believe what the BS does. It took growing up in a certain environment and having certain life experiences to do that. It's extremely unlikely to happen, it it's even possible.


Sure, it requires the person to be vigilant so that they don't fall into old habits/patterns. But even people brought up in environments where infidelity = murder will still cheat. I just read a post the other day about someone's son cheating, and the father said something to the effect of, "He wasn't brought up that way." And some other people, who were brought up in a bad environment, don't cheat. There's a more complex interaction occurring there between environment and individual.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Maybe sometimes a little fear is healthy?


----------



## 2ntnuf

soulpotato said:


> I'm glad. I'm really not trying to argue, I just want to share a different point of view as I have strong feelings on the subject as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it may be much less important to some, but I still think those things are vital. Of course infidelity needs counseling. I agree with that, and even recently said it on this thread - that IC and MC should definitely happen once infidelity enters the picture.
> 
> 
> 
> No, they were mostly talking about emotional contributions, not doing the chores/laundry. I have books that only address infidelity as well. I think both things need to be dealt with - the fallout from the infidelity and any relationship issues.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, just because we disagree doesn't mean that my (or other) viewpoints are invalid or "less than".  The easiest way isn't always the best way or the right way for everyone. Certainly anyone can take the easiest way, and it doesn't always lead to a good place. Any BS is free to walk away from their fWS, but if they want to stay and try to make things work...well, that's what R is for. I am an R-minded person, as are some others on this thread, so that's where we speak from. But if someone wants to divorce or leave, I respect that, too. Sometimes it is the best thing to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if you mean this generally or specifically, but I'll go ahead and answer. Free of what? Freedom is not what I wanted. I may not be able to get what I really want. But I will do the work to support that possibility and make it more likely. If it doesn't happen, then so be it, but that is what I choose. I don't believe that one can ever know exactly what is going to happen, especially while changing. Too many variables. I don't feel I've gone backwards at any point since I began this journey.


Freedom is what we all want. We want to be as close to free as we can while being with another human. We want them to accept us as we would ourselves. We want them to intuitively know what our needs are and work to meet those. While that's a bit unlikely(understatement), it is the goal we work toward within a relationship. See your comment on the books.

Consider this. Are there those out there who will be very unlikely to cheat? If so, would they be more likely to think like the BS who will be most likely not to cheat? Would it be easier to make something work that is broken or find someone who is more compatible? I think the latter. In the latter case, you have your freedom and so does the fWS. Although, I use that term more loosely than you, since "former" requires work to accomplish and I don't know how some things can be undone. 





soulpotato said:


> Sure, it requires the person to be vigilant so that they don't fall into old habits/patterns. But even people brought up in environments where infidelity = murder will still cheat. I just read a post the other day about someone's son cheating, and the father said something to the effect of, "He wasn't brought up that way." And some other people, who were brought up in a bad environment, don't cheat. There's a more complex interaction occurring there between environment and individual.


Do you think it is more a genetic thing than a learned thing?


----------



## soulpotato

2ntnuf said:


> Freedom is what we all want. We want to be as close to free as we can while being with another human. We want them to accept us as we would ourselves. We want them to intuitively know what our needs are and work to meet those. While that's a bit unlikely(understatement), it is the goal we work toward within a relationship. See your comment on the books.


I meant that I didn't want "freedom" from being in a relationship with my partner. That's how I thought you meant it. I don't think of being able to be one's self with another as "freedom", necessarily, but "connection". I think it's dangerous to imagine that someone might intuitively know our needs (or to think we'd intuitively know the needs of another). It's good to have those conversations. 



2ntnuf said:


> Consider this. Are there those out there who will be very unlikely to cheat? If so, would they be more likely to think like the BS who will be most likely not to cheat? Would it be easier to make something work that is broken or find someone who is more compatible? I think the latter. In the latter case, you have your freedom and so does the fWS.


I imagine so, but what % compatible are we talking about? It's not such an easy thing. Not to mention, each person is an individual and no two are the same. For me, that counts for more than just ease or higher compatibility. I know my own betrayed partner said much the same thing, even as we were talking about having to split again. 

For me, it's about more than "easier". That must be the case for her, too.

We all choose different paths.



2ntnuf said:


> Do you think it is more a genetic thing than a learned thing?


I wouldn't say that. Maybe it's an interaction of personality and background/environment. There are so many decisions, both conscious and subconscious, an individual makes as they're growing up. I have no idea which ones count for or against someone's chances towards being unfaithful.


----------



## 2ntnuf

soulpotato said:


> I meant that I didn't want "freedom" from being in a relationship with my partner. That's how I thought you meant it. I don't think of being able to be one's self with another as "freedom", necessarily, but "connection". I think it's dangerous to imagine that someone might intuitively know our needs (or to think we'd intuitively know the needs of another). It's good to have those conversations.
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine so, but what % compatible are we talking about? It's not such an easy thing. Not to mention, each person is an individual and no two are the same. For me, that counts for more than just ease or higher compatibility. I know my own betrayed partner said much the same thing, even as we were talking about having to split again.
> 
> For me, it's about more than "easier". That must be the case for her, too.
> 
> We all choose different paths.


So, it would be better in your mind, to go with the person you know will cheat rather than someone less likely, even though it is easier to learn through books and work as all relationships require, than to go with someone who has not cheated. 

The one thing that goes against this and I'm surprised you haven't caught that, is we never know who is going to cheat and who will not. All we can do is get to know their friends while dating and figure they are likely the same. 





soulpotato said:


> I wouldn't say that. Maybe it's an interaction of personality and background/environment. There are so many decisions, both conscious and subconscious, an individual makes as they're growing up. I have no idea which ones count for or against someone's chances towards being unfaithful.


Maybe consider which has more ability to control actions, personality, which is mostly genetic, or environment, which changes as we age.


----------



## soulpotato

2ntnuf said:


> So, it would be better in your mind, to go with the person you know will cheat rather than someone less likely, even though it is easier to learn through books and work as all relationships require, than to go with someone who has not cheated.


That's the thing - you _don't_ know the person will cheat. That's provided that they're doing the work to address their issues. The individual matters more to me. (In other words, I'll take my chances. If I don't really love the person, do any of the other positive factors ultimately matter to me? It's not just about the relationship skills. I don't form deep attachments easily, and I cherish people and find value in who they are and don't think they can be replaced. People will always hurt me, but I rarely love people. So if I love someone, I'd rather risk being hurt, than be safe with someone I can't love. Does this make any sense? I'm not sure it does.) 



2ntnuf said:


> The one thing that goes against this and I'm surprised you haven't caught that, is we never know who is going to cheat and who will not. All we can do is get to know their friends while dating and figure they are likely the same.


What do you mean, I haven't caught it? Of course we don't know who will cheat and who won't.



2ntnuf said:


> Maybe consider which has more ability to control actions, personality, which is mostly genetic, or environment, which changes as we age.


That's what I'm saying. We often don't know what factors determine or indicate certain behaviors or traits, and there's often a complex interaction that occurs. It's not just one thing or the other.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Well, I know where I stand on this. Thanks for your comments.


----------



## jim123

If we are going to close out gap all this we do need to address that A's do happen in good marriages as well. I would quote stats but...

So when we tell a BS that 50% of the problems are with them, the problems may not be major.


----------



## soulpotato

jim123 said:


> If we are going to close out gap all this we do need to address that A's do happen in good marriages as well. I would quote stats but...
> 
> So when we tell a BS that 50% of the problems are with them, the problems may not be major.


Either way, infidelity comes back to the WS having issues of some kind that need to be dealt with. Whatever they happen to be.

The basic difference between the two scenarios being that the BS would have some relationship work to do in one case (bad relationship/marriage) and not so much in the other case (good relationship/marriage). In either scenario, the WS has a lot of work to do across the board.


----------



## jim123

soulpotato said:


> Either way, infidelity comes back to the WS having issues of some kind that need to be dealt with. Whatever they happen to be.
> 
> The basic difference between the two scenarios being that the BS would have some relationship work to do in one case (bad relationship/marriage) and not so much in the other case (good relationship/marriage). In either scenario, the WS has a lot of work to do across the board.


I am talking about the advise we give. It is very possible that the M was good and nothing the BS could have done to stop the A.

In any case both the WS and BS much work through the tissues for the R to work. May not seem fair but it is the reality.


----------



## sidney2718

Maricha75 said:


> While I was, specifically, addressing that one person, the same principle can be applied to others. I do, however, have no problem ending a thread jack about Zanne. I hope JLD... I mean Dug, will do the same.


I believe that is twice that you've made this accusation. You are in violation of the TAM rules on that. If you have evidence, send it to the mods. If you don't, well, then you know what to do.


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## FalconKing

sidney2718 said:


> I believe that is twice that you've made this accusation. You are in violation of the TAM rules on that. If you have evidence, send it to the mods. If you don't, well, then you know what to do.



You really couldn't have PMed her if you felt like she was in violation of something? But that would be nice and less confrontational... Who needs that?


----------



## Wolf1974

Thundarr said:


> Yes committed to each other and to the relationship is the key because it's a constant where happiness is fickle. But we still get into the scenario where partners are committed on different levels or to different things. We (humans) tend to think others share our *values*. It's quite easy for someone who values commitment to think everyone else does too. Only after some form of betrayal do we learn that the relationship partner or business partner or family member actually have a different set of values. Maybe the partner valued the butterflies and tingles and once that was gone then they checked out. I think that's why a lot of partners miss red flags. It's because those things are red flags based on their own way of thinking.


I agree that shared values is key. I remember pre marriage counseling 14 years ago we talked a lot about values each other had. We were on the same page then so either they changed for her or she was lying about them. Personally it would help me a lot to think that they just changed for her. Th alternative hurts more but is possible.


----------



## pidge70

sidney2718 said:


> I believe that is twice that you've made this accusation. You are in violation of the TAM rules on that. If you have evidence, send it to the mods. If you don't, well, then you know what to do.


----------



## pidge70

FalconKing said:


> You really couldn't have PMed her if you felt like she was in violation of something? But that would be nice and less confrontational... Who needs that?


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



FalconKing said:


> You really couldn't have PMed her if you felt like she was in violation of something? But that would be nice and less confrontational... Who needs that?


But, then the threadjack would end. We can't have that.


----------



## italianjob

Just a personal opinion:
Discussions have been revolving a lot around the concept of Good/Healthy Marriage vs. Bad/Unhealthy Marriage, so I think it's important to understand what's our shared definition, if one exists, of the above.
A lot of people here are adamant that cheating can exist only in unhealthy marriages, while many other posters have been suggesting that it actually can happen in perfectly normal and fine marriages (at least as they are pre-A). Both categories feature BSs and WSs alike, and both have brought their own real life experiences  to support their opinions.
So the question becomes: what makes a marriage bad or unhealthy? The mere presence of issues, even if minor, or maybe also not so minor but easily workable, or the presence of major problems that are maybe not so easy to address? 
If our definition is the first one then the statement that there's no cheating without an unhealthy marriage is surely true, but I feel that every marriage falls under this category, because issues are in every one of them. With such a strict definition there's no marriage, well, actually no human relationship (even same sex friendships) that has no issues. There's no such thing as a perfect marriage.
If our definition is the second one, I think that It's been widely demonstrated that cheating happens as much in marriages that have no really big issues, as it does in marriages that can really be called unhealthy.
As a WS that cheated in a substantially good marriage (to my everlasting shame) I actually feel the second definition is the more adequate one (obviously IMO).
People cheat because there's something major wrong or missing in their marriage(but they still own 100% of the affair because that kind of response is not the right one, whatever the issues) but people also cheat simply because they can't resist a temptation (sometimes just a very specific one, sometimes temptations in general) that appeals to their ego, their lust, their love of a thrill, or of a good drama, or many motivations that have actually very little to do with the state of their marriage or with what their spouse will or won't do. 
I see how the equation cheating=bad marriage might appeal to people in both categories. It's good for WS that want to find a justification for their affair and not think of themselves as the "bad guy", and it's good for BS that want to think they do have control on these things and that they can avoid being cheated on again by making their spouse happy all the time.
So in the end I think every case is different, there are situations in which the state of the marriage was in some way instrumental in creating the mindset in the cheater that allowed him/her to slide into the A, there are situations in which a cheater will try to blow up a minor issue to major dimensions to blameshift (sometimes not really with blame shifting intentions, but actually doing his/her best to believe their own bulls**t to protect their self esteem), and there are situations in which the state of the marriage has very little or nothing to do with the cheating.
While I agree that respect should always be present when addressing a poster (BS or WS or even OM/OW) I also think that in the moment you choose to use a public forum, you have to accept the fact that people will agree or disagree, ask difficult questions, and, if they feel it's the case point out the presence of blame shifting or other things (without, obviously, going into name calling or things like that). In other words, mutual respect YES, censorship or taboo arguments/issues NO.


----------



## Wolf1974

Maricha75 said:


> But, then the threadjack would end. We can't have that.


Umm excuse me. I am only one who ever gets credit here for thread jacking.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Rookie, as you know I am familiar with your story. But I was not present in your marriage so I cannot know the extent of your contributions to the state of your marriage pre A. It certainly sounds to my ears that your marriage was no different than many (most) marriages and that while it may have been slightly ill it certainly wasn't terminal. I'd like to respectfully ask a question and try honestly to answer it if you will. Do you feel guilt about your contributions to the state of your marriage or do you think the bulk of your guilt stems from the failed reconciliation? I know you've written at length about how much work your ex put in to "win you back." It seems to me that were I in your position I would have more guilt about the failed R and the circumstances surrounding that than the relatively small contributions to the dysfunction of the original marriage. If I were in your shoes the failed R would very much cloud my sight when analyzing my marriage through the lens of hindsight.


No, Bfree, I do not feel bad about my reconciliation, because I do not consider it a failure. True, we did not re-marry, but we reached a level of respect and mutual affection that has been absent for many years. We are now fast friends and even that is a huge improvement over the last year of our marriage. I was unable to fall back in love with her, because I loved somebody else. This could have happened in ANY relationship, and was not the FAULT of anybody.
No, my feelings are grounded in my actions the last year or more of my marriage. I didn't exactly cover myself with glory.


----------



## Wolf1974

italianjob said:


> Just a personal opinion:
> Discussions have been revolving a lot around the concept of Good/Healthy Marriage vs. Bad/Unhealthy Marriage, so I think it's important to understand what's our shared definition, if one exists, of the above.
> A lot of people here are adamant that cheating can exist only in unhealthy marriages, while many other posters have been suggesting that it actually can happen in perfectly normal and fine marriages (at least as they are pre-A). Both categories feature BSs and WSs alike, and both have brought their own real life experiences to support their opinions.
> So the question becomes: what makes a marriage bad or unhealthy? The mere presence of issues, even if minor, or maybe also not so minor but easily workable, or the presence of major problems that are maybe not so easy to address?
> If our definition is the first one then the statement that there's no cheating without an unhealthy marriage is surely true, but I feel that every marriage falls under this category, because issues are in every one of them. With such a strict definition there's no marriage, well, actually no human relationship (even same sex friendships) that has no issues. There's no such thing as a perfect marriage.
> If our definition is the second one, I think that It's been widely demonstrated that cheating happens as much in marriages that have no really big issues, as it does in marriages that can really be called unhealthy.
> As a WS that cheated in a substantially good marriage (to my everlasting shame) I actually feel the second definition is the more adequate one (obviously IMO).
> People cheat because there's something major wrong or missing in their marriage(but they still own 100% of the affair because that kind of response is not the right one, whatever the issues) but people also cheat simply because they can't resist a temptation (sometimes just a very specific one, sometimes temptations in general) that appeals to their ego, their lust, their love of a thrill, or of a good drama, or many motivations that have actually very little to do with the state of their marriage or with what their spouse will or won't do.
> I see how the equation cheating=bad marriage might appeal to people in both categories. It's good for WS that want to find a justification for their affair and not think of themselves as the "bad guy", and it's good for BS that want to think they do have control on these things and that they can avoid being cheated on again by making their spouse happy all the time.
> So in the end I think every case is different, there are situations in which the state of the marriage was in some way instrumental in creating the mindset in the cheater that allowed him/her to slide into the A, there are situations in which a cheater will try to blow up a minor issue to major dimensions to blameshift (sometimes not really with blame shifting intentions, but actually doing his/her best to believe their own bulls**t to protect their self esteem), and there are situations in which the state of the marriage has very little or nothing to do with the cheating.
> While I agree that respect should always be present when addressing a poster (BS or WS or even OM/OW) I also think that in the moment you choose to use a public forum, you have to accept the fact that people will agree or disagree, ask difficult questions, and, if they feel it's the case point out the presence of blame shifting or other things (without, obviously, going into name calling or things like that). In other words, mutual respect YES, censorship or taboo arguments/issues NO.



Couldn't have said it better myself. Matter of fact I have since the beginning but people want to believe what they want to believe. Even when a WS comes and posts the same thing I have been saying it will be dismissed and overlooked here. But I appreciate you coming forward anyway.

It does make me wonder if the "my marriage is healthy" and "only unhappy marriages lead to infidelity" crowd will ever be in for the shock of their life .


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## Rookie4

There are only two people in a marriage (usually). So it is simply a matter of perception. One party (usually the BS) might think the marriage is good, but obviously the other party (the cheater) either doesn't, or has other issues. In a marriage in which BOTH parties are on the same page, and are having their needs/wants met by the other party, cheating is impossible, unless somebody is mentally ill.
Just because you perceive or want to believe that a marriage is goo, doesn't make it so. Just because you perceive or want to believe that a marriage is bad enough to cheat, doesn't make it so, either. Bottom line is that for either to happen, something is rotten in Denmark. The idea that cheating can occur in a wonderful marriage is fantasy, and is sometimes believed by either the BS or WS or both.


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## wayword

Gosh, you guys post A LOT. 

I wanted to address something someone asked me earlier, about my husband not changing, and if I was considering divorce. 

Considering? No. I guess this is part of the 'for worse' part in marriage I signed up for. Nothing's changed, and I don't know if it ever will. We are just very different, and I have to accept that. He still doesn't want to have "Long, drawn-out discussions" with me (though he can yap about whatever to his friends for hours). We still see sex a lot differently (I like actual mental and emotional foreplay and connection; whereas he doesn't see that as necessary). I'm so used to being on my own in this marriage that I stopped considering him, really. We only see each other maybe two, three days a week. 

This weekend he basically said I had my entire life before him to do whatever I wanted -- which made me question what I'd been spending the past 8 years with him doing: being his wife, trying to conform to what he wanted (while he was around) and being/doing what *I* wanted when I was alone -- and I had plenty of free time ( before the baby) to do that. It worked...until it didn't. 

I don't know what I'll do now. Try to make myself happy in other ways, I guess. Try to not need the kind of intimacy I was trying to manufacture elsewhere. 

I guess marriage is _supposed _to be dull, just like parenting is supposed to be drudgery, with these little interspersed moments of happiness to get you through the rest of it. The parenting part is easier to understand; I had hoped so many different things for my marriage and none of them will ever happen. So yeah, while it's important to own up to my own failings, I can't say I don't miss the excitement and freedom. The fantasy was (and always will be) better than the reality. But the reality's what I committed to, and I guess that's the point: it's not fun or sexy or interesting, it just *is*. My husband would say we had a good marriage; I would say we were (are) not intimate. We coparent, we work well together. But when something good happened, or I had a funny story or wanted to talk for hours about my favorite topic (or any topic!) my husband was the last person I'd consider going to. 

Saying "I was lonely/bored/invalidated" isn't an excuse, but it is a _reason_. I know it's easy to think all WS are mean and evil, and yes, I wet outside my marriage for something I needed. I did not, however, make that decision in a vacuum.


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## italianjob

Rookie4 said:


> There are only two people in a marriage (usually). So it is simply a matter of perception. One party (usually the BS) might think the marriage is good, but obviously the other party (the cheater) either doesn't, or has other issues. In a marriage in which BOTH parties are on the same page, and are having their needs/wants met by the other party, cheating is impossible, unless somebody is mentally ill.
> Just because you perceive or want to believe that a marriage is goo, doesn't make it so. Just because you perceive or want to believe that a marriage is bad enough to cheat, doesn't make it so, either. Bottom line is that for either to happen, something is rotten in Denmark. The idea that cheating can occur in a wonderful marriage is fantasy, and is sometimes believed by either the BS or WS or both.


That's your opinion, not a fact.
Too black and White for my perception of the world, I don't agree, but you're entitled to your opinion, of course.

Are all serial cheaters mentally ill?


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



italianjob said:


> That's your opinion, not a fact.
> Too black and White for my perception of the world, I don't agree, but you're entitled to your opinion, of course.
> 
> Are all serial cheaters mentally ill?


Adding to that, if one considers EAs on the same level as PAs, then one who has had more than one EA would be a serial cheater, yes? So, would that person be mentally ill?


----------



## BURNT KEP

Rookie4 said:


> There are only two people in a marriage (usually). So it is simply a matter of perception. One party (usually the BS) might think the marriage is good, but obviously the other party (the cheater) either doesn't, or has other issues. In a marriage in which BOTH parties are on the same page, and are having their needs/wants met by the other party, cheating is impossible, unless somebody is mentally ill.
> Just because you perceive or want to believe that a marriage is goo, doesn't make it so. Just because you perceive or want to believe that a marriage is bad enough to cheat, doesn't make it so, either. Bottom line is that for either to happen, something is rotten in Denmark. The idea that cheating can occur in a wonderful marriage is fantasy, and is sometimes believed by either the BS or WS or both.


How many of these fantasy marriages exist? I do not know of any myself. I thought my marriage was one of these but I guess my ww did not.


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## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> There are only two people in a marriage (usually). So it is simply a matter of perception. One party (usually the BS) might think the marriage is good, but obviously the other party (the cheater) either doesn't, or has other issues. In a marriage in which BOTH parties are on the same page, and are having their needs/wants met by the other party, *cheating is impossible*, unless somebody is mentally ill.
> Just because you perceive or want to believe that a marriage is goo, doesn't make it so. Just because you perceive or want to believe that a marriage is bad enough to cheat, doesn't make it so, either. Bottom line is that for either to happen, something is rotten in Denmark. The idea that cheating can occur in a wonderful marriage *is fantasy*, and is sometimes believed by either the BS or WS or both.



Highlighted words put together I agree with. Anyone who believes that it's impossible for their spouse to change and cheats is definitely living in a fantasy. One major part of life is constant change. We all experience that as we go through life.


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## Wolf1974

wayword said:


> Gosh, you guys post A LOT.
> 
> I wanted to address something someone asked me earlier, about my husband not changing, and if I was considering divorce.
> 
> Considering? No. I guess this is part of the 'for worse' part in marriage I signed up for. Nothing's changed, and I don't know if it ever will. We are just very different, and I have to accept that. He still doesn't want to have "Long, drawn-out discussions" with me (though he can yap about whatever to his friends for hours). We still see sex a lot differently (I like actual mental and emotional foreplay and connection; whereas he doesn't see that as necessary). I'm so used to being on my own in this marriage that I stopped considering him, really. We only see each other maybe two, three days a week.
> 
> This weekend he basically said I had my entire life before him to do whatever I wanted -- which made me question what I'd been spending the past 8 years with him doing: being his wife, trying to conform to what he wanted (while he was around) and being/doing what *I* wanted when I was alone -- and I had plenty of free time ( before the baby) to do that. It worked...until it didn't.
> 
> I don't know what I'll do now. Try to make myself happy in other ways, I guess. Try to not need the kind of intimacy I was trying to manufacture elsewhere.
> 
> I guess marriage is _supposed _to be dull, just like parenting is supposed to be drudgery, with these little interspersed moments of happiness to get you through the rest of it. The parenting part is easier to understand; I had hoped so many different things for my marriage and none of them will ever happen. So yeah, while it's important to own up to my own failings, I can't say I don't miss the excitement and freedom. The fantasy was (and always will be) better than the reality. But the reality's what I committed to, and I guess that's the point: it's not fun or sexy or interesting, it just *is*. My husband would say we had a good marriage; I would say we were (are) not intimate. We coparent, we work well together. But when something good happened, or I had a funny story or wanted to talk for hours about my favorite topic (or any topic!) my husband was the last person I'd consider going to.
> 
> *Saying "I was lonely/bored/invalidated" isn't an excuse, but it is a reason. I know it's easy to think all WS are mean and evil, and yes, I wet outside my marriage for something I needed. I did not, however, make that decision in a vacuum.*


*

But you did make that choice. Did he? Why did you not choose other options if you were so unhappy? Did you speak to him about being unhappy, try marriage counseling, consider divorce? 
*


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## Regret214

Wolf1974 said:


> But you did make that choice. Did he? Why did you not choose other options if you were so unhappy? Did you speak to him about being unhappy, try marriage counseling, consider divorce?
> [/B]


I can answer this for me. See, I think a lot of you are totally going on the thought that am affair just happened. As if one day we woke up and said "This marriage sucks so I'm going to have an affair."

For me, getting to that point took a couple years. Years of holding my own anger and fears inside all the while giving the impression of a happy marriage. All the while lying to not only Dig but myself. Years of convoluted thoughts in my head that became my reality and I began to seek validation.

That decision, as horrible as it was, was not rational and not of reality. All it took was the forces to align with the "right" person.

That might be why it seemed sudden.

But it wasn't.

As for me not seeking help or counseling, I actually did. Except, I was so far into my new reality that the counselor bashed Dig for not being supportive or acting like a husband should. Again...just more validation. Even though deep down I loved Dig, my new reality clouded that until the night he confronted me and I thought I'd lost the only man who ever really loved me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

italianjob said:


> That's your opinion, not a fact.
> Too black and White for my perception of the world, I don't agree, but you're entitled to your opinion, of course.
> 
> Are all serial cheaters mentally ill?


I never mentioned serial cheaters, but Yes I would believe that serial cheaters have mental health issues.


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## Rookie4

Maricha75 said:


> Adding to that, if one considers EAs on the same level as PAs, then one who has had more than one EA would be a serial cheater, yes? So, would that person be mentally ill?


Same answer as to Italianjob. If you have MULTIPLE affairs you have emotional issues. I think that is pretty evident.


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## Rookie4

BURNT KEP said:


> How many of these fantasy marriages exist? I do not know of any myself. I thought my marriage was one of these but I guess my ww did not.


Exactly right, you THOUGHT your marriage was OK, but your WW obviously didn't. So, to my mind , you didn't have a good marriage, right?


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## wayword

Wolf1974 said:


> But you did make that choice. Did he? Why did you not choose other options if you were so unhappy? Did you speak to him about being unhappy, try marriage counseling, consider divorce?
> [/B]


I honestly don't know if he was happy or not -- he doesn't use emotional terms like that. He doesn't even communicate feelings to me unless he is completely overwhelmed. That comes under the "long, drawn out conversations" label of things he doesn't 'do'. I guess he was/is? Asking him" if [he] is happy" would be guaranteed to start an argument. 

I don't have any other options. I don't want to be unmarried. As lonely as my marriage can be, trying to date at my age and with a kid and my looks would be ten times worse. 

I'm going back to individual counseling tomorrow. I know he is seeing someone individually, but I don't think we can go together again. He sees it as a waste of time.


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## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> I can answer this for me. See, I think a lot of you are totally going on the thought that am affair just happened. As if one day we woke up and said "This marriage sucks so I'm going to have an affair."
> 
> For me, getting to that point took a couple years. Years of holding my own anger and fears inside all the while giving the impression of a happy marriage. All the while lying to not only Dig but myself. Years of convoluted thoughts in my head that became my reality and I began to seek validation.
> 
> That decision, as horrible as it was, was not rational and not of reality. All it took was the forces to align with the "right" person.
> 
> That might be why it seemed sudden.
> 
> But it wasn't.
> 
> As for me not seeking help or counseling, I actually did. Except, I was so far into my new reality that the counselor bashed Dig for not being supportive or acting like a husband should. Again...just more validation. Even though deep down I loved Dig, my new reality clouded that until the night he confronted me and I thought I'd lost the only man who ever really loved me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have no problem with your description of events as I believe marriages can slowly degrade over time. The other side of that spectrum is when they degrade quickly such as a BNO or GNO that goes way wrong .

Someone was using a medical analogy to this which applies. Sometimes you go to bed and wake up feeling like hell next morning. Othertimes you get sick slowly over time. 

Just because one type of timeline does exist doesn't mean that the other can't as well is all my point


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## Rookie4

Ok, I have a good marriage. We are in love , we communicate, we do everything together, we are looking forward to our future, we have a great sex life, and are emotionally secure with each other. So, one morning ,my spouse woke up and without any forethought decided to f**k somebody else. How many people think this is a realistic scenerio?........Now, add the words "I think, or I thought", to that same scenerio. A lot more believable, right? 
It's like I said, It is all about perception.


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## Wolf1974

wayword said:


> I honestly don't know if he was happy or not -- he doesn't use emotional terms like that. He doesn't even communicate feelings to me unless he is completely overwhelmed. That comes under the "long, drawn out conversations" label of things he doesn't 'do'. I guess he was/is? Asking him" if [he] is happy" would be guaranteed to start an argument.
> 
> I don't have any other options. I don't want to be unmarried. As lonely as my marriage can be, trying to date at my age and with a kid and my looks would be ten times worse.
> 
> I'm going back to individual counseling tomorrow. I know he is seeing someone individually, but I don't think we can go together again. He sees it as a waste of time.


So does he not know about the affair then?


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## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Ok, I have a good marriage. We are in love , we communicate, we do everything together, we are looking forward to our future, we have a great sex life, and are emotionally secure with each other. So, one morning ,my spouse woke up and without any forethought decided to f**k somebody else. How many people think this is a realistic scenerio?........Now, add the words "I think, or I thought", to that same scenerio. A lot more believable, right?
> It's like I said, It is all about perception.


I thought it was about a million to one till the morning I work up and it happend to me. Several others including WS here also said the same. Even on a small forum like this you can't dismiss when several as saying it did Happen to me like that. Article posted which also state the same. Maybe you personally have never experienced it like that or seen it in your bubble of life but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just means it hasn't touched your life personally


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## Rookie4

When I discovered my wife's affair, I felt blindsided, like a lot of other BS's. But was I really blindsided? If I had paid attention to my marriage and the warning signs, like I paid attention to my career, maybe I could have done something positive to stop the disintegration. 
I do not believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny and I don't believe that cheating happens in genuinely good marriages. There are no good reasons to cheat, but that doesn't mean that the marriage is good, or that the WS doesn't have SOME reason to cheat, even if it's wrong.


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## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> I thought it was about a million to one till the morning I work up and it happend to me. Several others including WS here also said the same. Even on a small forum like this you can't dismiss when several as saying it did Happen to me like that. Article posted which also state the same. Maybe you personally have never experienced it like that or seen it in your bubble of life but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just means it hasn't touched your life personally


Other than you, Wolf and a very few others. Nobody believes that cheating happens for zero reasons. Lets take a quick poll. How many people truly believe that cheating is spontaneous and has no cause whatsoever?


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## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> When I discovered my wife's affair, I felt blindsided, like a lot of other BS's. But was I really blindsided? If I had paid attention to my marriage and the warning signs, like I paid attention to my career, maybe I could have done something positive to stop the disintegration.
> I do not believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny and I don't believe that cheating happens in genuinely good marriages. There are no good reasons to cheat, but that doesn't mean that the marriage is good, or that the WS doesn't have SOME reason to cheat, even if it's wrong.


And that's fine if you want to believe your way is the only way for all people across the planet and no matter how many come here to say otherwise. I'm not at All interested in changing your opinion. Anyone who doesn't recognize something that others have seen first hand and or experienced isn't open to other ideas anyway. 

I once thought like you and was given a very harsh reality lesson. I hope you do fair better than I did


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## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Other than you, Wolf and a very few others. Nobody believes that cheating happens for zero reasons. Lets take a quick poll. How many people truly believe that cheating is spontaneous and has no cause whatsoever?


Your twisting my words. I never said no reasons. I said it can happen quickly and for selfish ones. Nice try though


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## italianjob

Rookie4 said:


> Ok, I have a good marriage. We are in love , we communicate, we do everything together, we are looking forward to our future, we have a great sex life, and are emotionally secure with each other. So, one morning ,my spouse woke up and without any forethought decided to f**k somebody else. How many people think this is a realistic scenerio?........Now, add the words "I think, or I thought", to that same scenerio. A lot more believable, right?
> It's like I said, It is all about perception.


1. The categories are not Wonderful/Good vs Bad/Unhealthy. Things are not so black and white in life. If you have some issues in a marriage it doesn't necessarily put the marriage in the "bad" category. If none of those issues is a major one it doesn't necessarily put the marriage in the "wonderful/good" category. Most of the time you'll find you have a "normal" marriage. No human being is perfect, so how could any relationship between two different human beings ever be perfect?
2. There are different views and theories on human sexuality and about monogamy. If you think monogamy is the natural condition and doesn't require any work then you might be right. I think that most relationship have a "honeymoon phase" during which you feel little or no sexual attraction to people different than your spouse; then that phase ends and you must learn to control yourself, especially if someone you're attracted to starts hitting on you. Some people find it more difficult to resist than others, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're in a bad marriage, IMO.
Again you keep painting a black or white world... and insisting is fact. It's your opinion and that's ok, but it is no dogma.


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## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Your twisting my words. I never said no reasons. I said it can happen quickly and for selfish ones. Nice try though


Even selfish reasons are reasons. Not good reasons, but they exist, nevertheless. I never twisted anybody's words in my life. I have enough trouble typing my own.


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## Rookie4

italianjob said:


> 1. The categories are not Wonderful/Good vs Bad/Unhealthy. Things are not so black and white in life. If you have some issues in a marriage it doesn't necessarily put the marriage in the "bad" category. If none of those issues is a major one it doesn't necessarily put the marriage in the "wonderful/good" category. Most of the time you'll find you have a "normal" marriage. No human being is perfect, so how could any relationship between two different human beings ever be perfect?
> 2. There are different views and theories on human sexuality and about monogamy. If you think monogamy is the natural condition and doesn't require any work then you might be right. I think that most relationship have a "honeymoon phase" during which you feel little or no sexual attraction to people different than your spouse; then that phase ends and you must learn to control yourself, especially if someone you're attracted to starts hitting on you. Some people find it more difficult to resist than others, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're in a bad marriage, IMO.
> Again you keep painting a black or white world... and insisting is fact. It's your opinion and that's ok, but it is no dogma.


So by your logic, some types of cheating can be justified? If there are no absolutes in marriage , then it follows that cheating (which happens in marriage) can also, under some circumstances, be excused. I wonder how many BS's believe this? I certainly don't. I believe that some absolutes apply in life. What I don't believe is that cheating happens without reason.


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## Wolf1974

You just did mine. I never said waywards have no reason. Boredom, selfishness, alcohol can all be reasons. Not good ones but justifiers are going to find a way to make something they know is wrong ok.


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## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> So by your logic, some types of cheating can be justified? If there are no absolutes in marriage , then it follows that cheating (which happens in marriage) can also, under some circumstances, be excused. I wonder how many BS's believe this?


I do and have stated so publiclly


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## larry.gray

Rookie4 said:


> When I discovered my wife's affair, I felt blindsided, like a lot of other BS's. But was I really blindsided? If I had paid attention to my marriage and the warning signs, like I paid attention to my career, maybe I could have done something positive to stop the disintegration.
> I do not believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny and I don't believe that cheating happens in genuinely good marriages. There are no good reasons to cheat, but that doesn't mean that the marriage is good, or that the WS doesn't have SOME reason to cheat, even if it's wrong.


I get what you're going after Rookie - but I think you're going too black and white the opposite direction from those you're arguing with. The world is full of gray.

There are some people who lack morals. There are some with personality disorders. There are some who are in a mid life crisis and never played the field when younger and take the chance then. 

Yes, there are people _some_ who are in a great marriage that cheat.


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## Rookie4

Here I am, thread jacking my own thread. I think that somebody should start a new thread addressing this issue. It's an interesting one, to be sure.


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## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> You just did mine. I never said waywards have no reason. Boredom, selfishness, alcohol can all be reasons. Not good ones but justifiers are going to find a way to make something they know is wrong ok.


Actually, I don't think I did, or if I did , I apologize, I didn't mean to.. I was using the generic you, to describe those people who believe that their marriages were healthy, at the time of the affair.


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## Rookie4

larry.gray said:


> I get what you're going after Rookie - but I think you're going too black and white the opposite direction from those you're arguing with. The world is full of gray.
> 
> There are some people who lack morals. There are some with personality disorders. There are some who are in a mid life crisis and never played the field when younger and take the chance then.
> 
> Yes, there are people _some_ who are in a great marriage that cheat.


I disagree, LG. In the minds of the cheater, the marriage isn't good, for whatever reasons. That is why I stress the perception angle.


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## italianjob

Rookie4 said:


> So by your logic, some types of cheating can be justified? If there are no absolutes in marriage , then it follows that cheating (which happens in marriage) can also, under some circumstances, be excused. I wonder how many BS's believe this? I certainly don't. I believe that some absolutes apply in life. What I don't believe is that cheating happens without reason.


Not at all, I never said that cheating can be justified, I just believe that it can be explained (it's obvious there's a reason) without necessarily blame it on "the state of the marriage". On the contrary than what you concluded (stretching a lot what you call my logic) I think that, though the state of the marriage may be (or not) a factor, to actually believe it Always plays a major part, takes away personal responsiblity, like blaming one's behavior on "the society" for example.


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## Wolf1974

For clarity on earlier post. I don't ever agree in cheating or sleeping with someone else outside your spouse.

However while I don't agree with it I recognize other lifestyles and circumstances exist. 

Swingers for example are basically cheating with permission

Another example ,someone brought up earlier , was a couple too poor to divorce and so they instead agreed and let each other cheat. But in this scenario ,while I don't agree with it, so long as everyone has the information and is ok with it then that's their life. 

Marriage made up of two individual people is way to complex to be black and white


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## larry.gray

Rookie4 said:


> Here I am, thread jacking my own thread. I think that somebody should start a new thread addressing this issue. It's an interesting one, to be sure.


Honestly I don't think it is a threadjack. 

It is at the root of the issue why so many WS feel unwelcome. The moment they try to address any pre-affair marital issues, this contentious topic rears its head.


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## larry.gray

Rookie4 said:


> I disagree, LG. In the minds of the cheater, the marriage isn't good, for whatever reasons. That is why I stress the perception angle.


I can respond in two ways.

#1 - Sometimes that perception can be _*VERY*_ deluded. Should we honor the perceptions of those with only a fleeting connection to reality?

#2 I'll throw out the gender angle. Men indeed do cheat in a happy marriage. There are many men who lack the morals to resist temptation even though they have a wonderful wife, one they do not wish to divorce.


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## DvlsAdvc8

The downfall of this thread is due to the fact that when a WS is asked "Why did you cheat?", some people get upset if the answer is anything more than "because I'm a sh*tty person."

You can't have much of a dialogue as a result. The only way to move forward is to compartmentalize the relationship and the cheating... as if they're two unattached issues. I feel like most of the BSs here assume that a would-be cheater properly opting for divorce is a forgone conclusion. My experience was completely the opposite. I felt stuck between things I wanted and things I hated... in a no man's land for years prior to cheating. Choosing divorce just isn't that simple... kids, house, finances, reputation, and even in my case, never fighting. We were low-conflict and I think you sort of have this idea of what a divorce-worthy relationship looks like, and maybe your relationship doesn't fit it. So there you are, unhappy, unable to affect positive change in your spouse or via divorce. All options appear bad, so you remain stagnant. You come to resent being pinned like this - your partner won't respond to your attempts to improve things, and they hold certain trump cards that dissuade you from divorce (ironically, not seeing my kids every day was one of those cards to me). You come to resent your partner more and more, care about them less and less, but they still hold those cards.

So what do you do? You reach a critical mass where you don't care about them anymore. You're so full of resentment that you even convince yourself it's justice - "Well, you don't want to spend time with me... and *they* do." If they didn't have those trump cards hanging over your head, you'd be gone already.

I don't believe the issues in a marriage, where they legitimately exist, should rightly be separated from cheating. In my case, my ex and I both broke vows... she broke "have and hold", while I broke "forsaking all others". Interestingly, just as I didn't divorce her over neglect, she didn't divorce me for cheating for her own set of trump cards.

My mindset at the time was very much "Well, since you want nothing to do with me, you have no say any longer in who I do something with."

It's a bad decision amidst nothing but bad options. I empathize with anyone in that situation, because temptation becomes like nothing you've ever seen. It's wrong like a starving poor man stealing bread, or having to choose between telling a lie or which body part to cut off (and when we're talking kids and intimacy, I think its a damn good analogy). That this is just dismissed as blameshifting annoys the crap outta me. I'm inclined to think most human beings will opt for the lie if the opposing forces are equally powerful.


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## 2ntnuf

dvls,

Are you for cheating when things get tough in a marriage? I sometimes wonder if the best darn thing I could have done would have been to pursue that woman who was interested. What would I have lost? My wife was already cheating. I know, though, she would have been seriously angry with me, since she felt entitled to go outside the marriage because I wasn't providing her with what she needed. 

Can you imagine that? hahaha What a great ball buster that would have been, huh? Then I could come back to her with a twinkle in my eye looking for what she wanted.

How do you think she would have felt about that? Would it have hurt her to find out? I would have told her if she asked. Yeah, I could be that kind of a-hole if I wanted. Especially after her affair(s). 

Somehow, I could not hurt her or myself. Even though I wanted to go outside the marriage and see if it would help. Do you think a woman who wants sex from her husband would be willing to make that sacrifice because she wants sex with him? It likely would have sparked my libido.


----------



## Rookie4

larry.gray said:


> I can respond in two ways.
> 
> #1 - Sometimes that perception can be _*VERY*_ deluded. Should we honor the perceptions of those with only a fleeting connection to reality?
> 
> #2 I'll throw out the gender angle. Men indeed do cheat in a happy marriage. There are many men who lack the morals to resist temptation even though they have a wonderful wife, one they do not wish to divorce.


Your first point:Regardless of whether the reasons are good or not, or the perception is accurate or not, they both exist. Your second point: Larry, I think your gender example is a false one, .If you have a man, who is married, but lacks healthy morals, then any marriage he is a partner in, is by definition, an unhealthy one
.If you have a set of teeth, but two of them have cavities, then you do NOT have a healthy set of teeth, do you? Same with a marriage. If you have a marriage, but one of the partners is engaging in unhealthy pursuits, or is perceived as doing so, (for whatever reasons) then you have an unhealthy marriage.


----------



## wayword

Wolf1974 said:


> So does he not know about the affair then?


Oh, he knows. He called it 'cheating' -- and I sort of agree with him, although nothing physical happened. He has the right to see it as he does, as the wronged party.


----------



## italianjob

Rookie4 said:


> Your first point:Regardless of whether the reasons are good or not, or the perception is accurate or not, they both exist. Your second point: Larry, I think your gender example is a false one, .*If you have a man, who is married, but lacks healthy morals, then any marriage he is a partner in, is by definition, an unhealthy one* .If you have a set of teeth, but two of them have cavities, then you do NOT have a healthy set of teeth, do you? Same with a marriage. If you have a marriage, but one of the partners is engaging in unhealthy pursuits, or is perceived as doing so, (for whatever reasons) then you have an unhealthy marriage.


So, if I get your logic correctly, you think that *he* makes the marriage he's in "bad" or "unhealthy", so his affair(s) must be blamed on the "state of the marriage" and his spouse has to take her part scratchhead of the blame for the affair(s) as it is no longer his personal responsibility, but a consequence of the "state of the marriage"


----------



## Rookie4

italianjob said:


> So, if I get your logic correctly, you think that *he* makes the marriage he's in "bad" or "unhealthy", so his affair(s) must be blamed on the "state of the marriage" and his spouse has to take her part scratchhead of the blame for the affair(s) as it is no longer his personal responsibility, but a consequence of the "state of the marriage"


What? Of course not. If one of your teeth has a cavity, is that the other teeths fault.? Try to remember, we aren't assigning blame here, we are only trying to explain that the problems exist.


----------



## italianjob

Rookie4 said:


> What? Of course not. If one of your teeth has a cavity, is that the other teeths fault.? Try to remember, we aren't assigning blame here, we are only trying to explain that the problems exist.


But the problem is in one of the spouses' character flaws, not in the state of the marriage. If I give in to temptation It makes me someone who did an horrible thing putting something I cherished stupidly at risk; but the fact that a person does something terrible or horrible doesn't make him/her necessarily a terrible or horrible person tout court, and it doesn't make the marriage an unhealty one by definition IMO.
And if I am a terrible person but can hide it with good acting abilities it makes the marriage a farce, but there is no way the BS can know.
Actually this discussion about blaming it on the marriage started by someone stating that the BS must take his/her part of the blame since a marriage where cheating happens is by definition a "bad marriage" that he/she helped build, so someone has been trying to assign blame here IMO.


----------



## Rookie4

italianjob said:


> But the problem is in one of the spouses' character flaws, not in the state of the marriage. If I give in to temptation It makes me someone who did an horrible thing putting something I cherished stupidly at risk; but the fact that a person does something terrible or horrible doesn't make him/her necessarily a terrible or horrible person tout court, and it doesn't make the marriage an unhealty one by definition IMO.


If you have an unhealthy person in a marriage, you have an unhealthy marriage. The marriage doesn't stand by itself , it is made up of both partners AND THEIR FLAWS.


----------



## italianjob

Rookie4 said:


> If you have an unhealthy person in a marriage, you have an unhealthy marriage. The marriage doesn't stand by itself , it is made up of both partners AND THEIR FLAWS.


By this definition every marriage is a unhealty marriage, since every one of us has some flaw, minor or major.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> If you have an unhealthy person in a marriage, you have an unhealthy marriage. The marriage doesn't stand by itself , it is made up of both partners AND THEIR FLAWS.


And that could be spun back around to "it's your fault that I cheated." One could say that if one spouse became mentally ill, that could be used as the "cause" for the other to cheat. As in the example of EAs. Mentally ill spouse cannot meet the emotional needs of his or her spouse. I mean CANNOT, because he or she cannot even meet his or her own needs. So, the WS could easily spin it as "it's his/her fault". That doesn't make it right, and doesn't excuse it, but it is reality.


----------



## Rookie4

italianjob said:


> By this definition every marriage is a unhealty marriage, since every one of us has some flaw, minor or major.


It goes both ways. My marriage was good because of BOTH my qualities and my wife's qualities. It went bad because of BOTH my flaws and my wife"s flaws. Usually, there is a balance, but as time passes, things will happen to cause the balance to shift one way or the other.


----------



## Rookie4

Maricha75 said:


> And that could be spun back around to "it's your fault that I cheated." One could say that if one spouse became mentally ill, that could be used as the "cause" for the other to cheat. As in the example of EAs. Mentally ill spouse cannot meet the emotional needs of his or her spouse. I mean CANNOT, because he or she cannot even meet his or her own needs. So, the WS could easily spin it as "it's his/her fault". That doesn't make it right, and doesn't excuse it, but it is reality.


AS I said before, this isn't about blame, it's about the existence of problems in a marriage. If you have cheating in a marriage, you have a bad marriage. I see no other way to it.


----------



## italianjob

Rookie4 said:


> AS I said before, this isn't about blame, it's about the existence of problems in a marriage. If you have cheating in a marriage, you have a bad marriage. I see no other way to it.


So it would become a matter of is it the cheating making it bad or is it the bad marriage causing the cheating... again personal responsability vs. everybody guilty, so nobody is guilty...


----------



## italianjob

Rookie4 said:


> It goes both ways. My marriage was good because of BOTH my qualities and my wife's qualities. It went bad because of BOTH my flaws and my wife"s flaws. Usually, there is a balance, but as time passes, things will happen to cause the balance to shift one way or the other.


No it doesn't. Everyone of us has qualities and flows, and we have it at the same time. It's how we mix them together that makes the marriage good, mostly good, fair, normal, acceptable, not so good, bad, terrible.
And in every moment of the marriage, a character flaw may show up and cause a bad event that destroys everything IMO


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

2ntnuf said:


> dvls,
> 
> Are you for cheating when things get tough in a marriage?


No, but there's tough and then there's tough. The first half of my marriage was great overall, but there were still tough patches here and there and I'd have laughed in anyone's face over the notion that I'd cheat. Cheating was what disgusting people do. When tough means a choice between two equal needs, say - seeing your kids every day and having an intimate connection with someone - what is the answer? You're miserable whether you stay or go. All I'm saying is that I understand how cheating becomes an option even for someone who never thought they'd cheat.

When my kids are home with their mom, there isn't a day that goes by that I don't miss getting hugs and kisses goodnight.



2ntnuf said:


> I sometimes wonder if the best darn thing I could have done would have been to pursue that woman who was interested. What would I have lost? My wife was already cheating. I know, though, she would have been seriously angry with me, since she felt entitled to go outside the marriage because I wasn't providing her with what she needed.


While less desirable than my ex simply trying to do the things with me that maintained our connection, I'd have chosen an open marriage if she were agreeable. She wasn't because she had no real desire for anyone - so it would have just been a one-sided arrangement. I understand today that her real issue is that she's seriously co-dependent, and it just transferred from me to the kids.

One of those trump cards that I held against her divorcing me for cheating: She didn't want the kids to be raised in a "broken home". Another demonstrations of her having zero sense of self... only what she imagined is best for the kids. It's a hard thing to convey that this is actually messed up thinking. People hear it and they go "good, the kids are most important" ... no, they're not. YOU are most important. If you are unhealthy or unhappy, your kids will be affected. Next comes your spouse and the state of the marriage. If your relationship, the foundation of the marriage, is poor, the kids WILL be affected. THEN comes the kids. If you put the kids first, you're actually harming them by neglecting your health/happiness and your relationships health/happiness... and they learn more from those examples than anything else imo.



2ntnuf said:


> Can you imagine that? hahaha What a great ball buster that would have been, huh? Then I could come back to her with a twinkle in my eye looking for what she wanted.
> 
> How do you think she would have felt about that? Would it have hurt her to find out? I would have told her if she asked. Yeah, I could be that kind of a-hole if I wanted. Especially after her affair(s).


For awhile, I began to think my ex was cheating. I was such a superfluous detail of her life that it seemed the only possible conclusion. But she never had opportunity. If she discovered my affairs and had one of her own that I later discovered, I'd have been shocked - more at the notion that she wanted any adult life than out of my own hurt. At least then I could have humanized my view of her and had somewhere to start with my frustrations - ie "so at least you needed *something*... what do you need, and what can I do to provide it?" Or we might have entered into the aforementioned open marriage agreement.



2ntnuf said:


> Somehow, I could not hurt her or myself. Even though I wanted to go outside the marriage and see if it would help. Do you think a woman who wants sex from her husband would be willing to make that sacrifice because she wants sex with him? It likely would have sparked my libido.


I'm not sure I understand the question or have enough context to answer. Were you the low-intimacy partner? (I say intimacy, because at least in my case, it wasn't purely about sex... it was more about intimate connection - sex, dates, dreams, goals, activities... passions). All I can say is that my faithfulness (I won't call it sacrifice) and wanting to have sex with my wife didn't spark my ex's libido for the 6 years prior to my affairs. Those 6 years were the least I've had sex, or felt intimately fulfilled (activity/dates etc) in my life. My concerns were often met with "that's normal in marriage, nobody's having sex or has time to do anything".  Then came excuse making and red herrings to chase ("You could take on more of the chores, then maybe I'd be more in the mood to do things." Fixed. Solved? Nope... on to the next excuse...).


----------



## larry.gray

Thinking about this more Rookie - I'm going to accuse you of a fallacy of presupposition.

There is no such thing as a marriage _that doesn't have "issues."_


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## 2ntnuf

Give me a little bit dvls. I'll come back and answer your questions. I think those were legitimate. Thank you. It may even help others to consider things appropriately.


----------



## Wolf1974

italianjob said:


> No it doesn't. Everyone of us has qualities and flows, and we have it at the same time. It's how we mix them together that makes the marriage good, mostly good, fair, normal, acceptable, not so good, bad, terrible.
> And in every moment of the marriage, a character flaw may show up and cause a bad event that destroys everything IMO


You are of course exactly right. But that will be lost on some here. 

Humans are flawed
Humans are weak
Human change over time
Humans are selfish
Humans have fear

So to think something like a relationship between the two of them couldn't ever buckle is ridiculous. A successful marriage to my mind is when two people come together to support each other's weaknesses and faults. One needs more help here so you give it. The other needs help here so they receive it. That's what makes it healthy and successful. And even in that healthy marriage things can creep in. When it does it falls on the individual tempted to take out the trash or let it in the house. We CANNOT control every little decisions and action out spouse takes.

Someone posted earlier that people don't want to accept this fact because it means no matter what they do their marriage can be vulnerable. I would have never thought that way either till it happend to me. 

A narrowed vision of the world is built from fear an doubt it would seem


----------



## Rookie4

italianjob said:


> So it would become a matter of is it the cheating making it bad or is it the bad marriage causing the cheating... again personal responsability vs. everybody guilty, so nobody is guilty...


On the contrary, there is no guilt involved, just responsibility. Remember, there is no excuse for infidelity.


----------



## Rookie4

larry.gray said:


> Thinking about this more Rookie - I'm going to accuse you of a fallacy of presupposition.
> 
> There is no such thing as a marriage _that doesn't have "issues."_


I agree, completely. But to hear some of our BS's , they were as innocent as the driven snow.


----------



## italianjob

Rookie4 said:


> I agree, completely. But to hear some of our BS's , they were as innocent as the driven snow.


So it IS about assigning blame, after all


----------



## Rookie4

italianjob said:


> No it doesn't. Everyone of us has qualities and flows, and we have it at the same time. It's how we mix them together that makes the marriage good, mostly good, fair, normal, acceptable, not so good, bad, terrible.
> And in every moment of the marriage, a character flaw may show up and cause a bad event that destroys everything IMO


I think this might be a little too dramatic. In most cases, flaws are excused , changed or allowed for. Rarely does one flaw cause the destruction of a marriage. That is what makes infidelity so difficult to deal with, and harder to recover from. There are very few extreme issues that have this type of permanent effect.


----------



## italianjob

Rookie4 said:


> I think this might be a little too dramatic. In most cases, flaws are excused , changed or allowed for. Rarely does one flaw cause the destruction of a marriage. That is what makes infidelity so difficult to deal with, and harder to recover from. There are very few extreme issues that have this type of permanent effect.


I agree that in most cases one flaw don't cause the destruction of a marriage, but if that flaw leads to infidelity, or other serious things like big financial problems, it could be considered a deal breaker by the other party, thus causing the end of the marriage.


----------



## 2ntnuf

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> No, but there's tough and then there's tough. The first half of my marriage was great overall, but there were still tough patches here and there and I'd have laughed in anyone's face over the notion that I'd cheat. Cheating was what disgusting people do. When tough means a choice between two equal needs, say - seeing your kids every day and having an intimate connection with someone - what is the answer? You're miserable whether you stay or go. All I'm saying is that I understand how cheating becomes an option even for someone who never thought they'd cheat.
> 
> When my kids are home with their mom, there isn't a day that goes by that I don't miss getting hugs and kisses goodnight.


The only thing I can say here is that I know what it's like to miss my children. I'm sorry you had to go through that. That happened after my first divorce. 

Sometimes, things are clear and what is best is to divorce, even if that meant I saw them less. They ended up with a decent family life, even though I was not really a part of it and I suffered. I felt I gave them the best I could, even if that meant I was not there for them as I would have liked. 

In your case, it seems you ended up the same as if you would have divorced in the first place, long before it got to the point of infidelity. I don't think there would have been a great difference. Maybe it would even have been easier? I don't know. I do know infidelity, mostly, doesn't help solve the issues with seeing the children. 





DvlsAdvc8 said:


> While less desirable than my ex simply trying to do the things with me that maintained our connection, I'd have chosen an open marriage if she were agreeable. She wasn't because she had no real desire for anyone - so it would have just been a one-sided arrangement. I understand today that her real issue is that she's seriously co-dependent, and it just transferred from me to the kids.
> 
> One of those trump cards that I held against her divorcing me for cheating: She didn't want the kids to be raised in a "broken home". Another demonstrations of her having zero sense of self... only what she imagined is best for the kids. It's a hard thing to convey that this is actually messed up thinking. People hear it and they go "good, the kids are most important" ... no, they're not. YOU are most important. If you are unhealthy or unhappy, your kids will be affected. Next comes your spouse and the state of the marriage. If your relationship, the foundation of the marriage, is poor, the kids WILL be affected. THEN comes the kids. If you put the kids first, you're actually harming them by neglecting your health/happiness and your relationships health/happiness... and they learn more from those examples than anything else imo.


I agree.





DvlsAdvc8 said:


> For awhile, I began to think my ex was cheating. I was such a superfluous detail of her life that it seemed the only possible conclusion. But she never had opportunity. If she discovered my affairs and had one of her own that I later discovered, I'd have been shocked - more at the notion that she wanted any adult life than out of my own hurt. At least then I could have humanized my view of her and had somewhere to start with my frustrations - ie "so at least you needed *something*... what do you need, and what can I do to provide it?" Or we might have entered into the aforementioned open marriage agreement.


Reads like that wouldn't have helped. Who knows?





DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I'm not sure I understand the question or have enough context to answer. Were you the low-intimacy partner? (I say intimacy, because at least in my case, it wasn't purely about sex... it was more about intimate connection - sex, dates, dreams, goals, activities... passions). All I can say is that my faithfulness (I won't call it sacrifice) and wanting to have sex with my wife didn't spark my ex's libido for the 6 years prior to my affairs. Those 6 years were the least I've had sex, or felt intimately fulfilled (activity/dates etc) in my life. My concerns were often met with "that's normal in marriage, nobody's having sex or has time to do anything".  Then came excuse making and red herrings to chase ("You could take on more of the chores, then maybe I'd be more in the mood to do things." Fixed. Solved? Nope... on to the next excuse...).


I don't believe it was purely about sex for me, either. And yes, I was lower drive than I'd ever, and I mean ever imagined I could ever be in all of my life. It was awful. And, it affected every thought and action in my world. It's truly not fun, when you really want to have that sex. I did, but I could never figure out what the hell was going on. 

She was not helpful in this at all. I did not have the intimacy with her I wanted/needed/desired. I guess I didn't want all her thoughts, just wanted her to share some and share what she was doing. She was very independent and she blamed that on her experiences in her first marriage. I don't think that was all of it. There were other reasons, but that just shows how little she wanted to reveal. 

I truly don't know what would have helped. I do know that experience talking with that woman for a short period, did seem to affect my thoughts and drove my libido upward. I imagine I would have gone off the charts if I would have pursued further, or I would have realized just what mess I was in with x2. I just don't believe in going outside the marriage, at all. 

Well, my thoughts on sacrifice were that getting her to go outside the marriage, may have made a change in it, if she could have pretended you didn't know. It might have sparked something, even if it was a divorce, quicker than you found by your actions. 

It's an odd thought. I just think this topic is worth consideration from all angles. 

I think the infidelity of a low desire or drive spouse, could likely be looked at in the same light as that of the hi desire or drive spouse.


----------



## honcho

Rookie4 said:


> If you have an unhealthy person in a marriage, you have an unhealthy marriage. The marriage doesn't stand by itself , it is made up of both partners AND THEIR FLAWS.


So 8 years ago I had a stroke, I was ill and in the hospital. My marriage immediately became unhealthy at this point? If my spouse would have gone and cheated back then we could all point to the fact I was ill and I created the unhealthy marriage?


----------



## Thundarr

Rookie4 said:


> I agree, completely. But to hear some of our BS's , they were as innocent as the driven snow.


You're clumping us all together then because I don't remember saying I was blameless for my first marriage exploding. I was a horrible husband by the end of it. Not because I was mean or abusive but instead because when she pulled away emotionally, I became clingy instead of setting boundaries. I knew I had to change if I wanted success in future relationships and I did.

But I haven't figured out you're disagreement with Wolf and italianjob. We each experienced different dynamics and their experiences is that of the BS doing their share to make the relationship good and the WS dropping the ball? I believe them.


----------



## EI

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The downfall of this thread is due to the fact that when a WS is asked "Why did you cheat?", some people get upset if the answer is anything more than "because I'm a sh*tty person."
> 
> You can't have much of a dialogue as a result. The only way to move forward is to compartmentalize the relationship and the cheating... as if they're two unattached issues. I feel like most of the BSs here assume that a would-be cheater properly opting for divorce is a forgone conclusion. My experience was completely the opposite. I felt stuck between things I wanted and things I hated... in a no man's land for years prior to cheating. Choosing divorce just isn't that simple... kids, house, finances, reputation, and even in my case, never fighting. We were low-conflict and I think you sort of have this idea of what a divorce-worthy relationship looks like, and maybe your relationship doesn't fit it. So there you are, unhappy, unable to affect positive change in your spouse or via divorce. All options appear bad, so you remain stagnant. You come to resent being pinned like this - your partner won't respond to your attempts to improve things, and they hold certain trump cards that dissuade you from divorce (ironically, not seeing my kids every day was one of those cards to me). You come to resent your partner more and more, care about them less and less, but they still hold those cards.
> 
> So what do you do? You reach a critical mass where you don't care about them anymore. You're so full of resentment that you even convince yourself it's justice - "Well, you don't want to spend time with me... and *they* do." If they didn't have those trump cards hanging over your head, you'd be gone already.
> 
> I don't believe the issues in a marriage, where they legitimately exist, should rightly be separated from cheating. In my case, my ex and I both broke vows... she broke "have and hold", while I broke "forsaking all others". Interestingly, just as I didn't divorce her over neglect, she didn't divorce me for cheating for her own set of trump cards.
> 
> My mindset at the time was very much "Well, since you want nothing to do with me, you have no say any longer in who I do something with."
> 
> It's a bad decision amidst nothing but bad options. I empathize with anyone in that situation, because temptation becomes like nothing you've ever seen. It's wrong like a starving poor man stealing bread, or having to choose between telling a lie or which body part to cut off (and when we're talking kids and intimacy, I think its a damn good analogy). That this is just dismissed as blameshifting annoys the crap outta me. I'm inclined to think most human beings will opt for the lie if the opposing forces are equally powerful.



WOW! I could have written this post, almost verbatim, except that we were *not* in a *low conflict* relationship. It had become so riddled with conflict that we could barely stand to be in the same room together. There was no such thing as a pleasant conversation between us and the tension had become so thick that you could have cut it with a knife. 

Still, our childrens' medical needs and our finances made divorce a virtual impossibility for the next couple of years, and I had reached a point where I didn't think I could survive in that atmosphere for one more day, much less another two years. B1 refused to leave and I could not leave. That was his trump card. 

Like Dvls, my spouse refused my attempts to improve our marriage and told me to accept our miserable lot in life just as he already had. My resentment was eating me alive and becoming impossible to suppress. *"A bad decision amidst nothing but bad options."* I know I've said almost those exact same words in the R thread. It's a Hell of a quandary to be in. To this day, I still don't know what I could have done to make that time in my life bearable (that I hadn't already tried) but I do know that cheating was the WRONG choice, even though I had told B1 that I would be divorcing him in two years and that I wouldn't wait should an opportunity come my way. After that, I didn't speak of it, again. Instead, I lied, deceived, and cheated on my husband, and my children. As much as I would like to blame B1 for that, I can't, because they were my choices, my actions, and my sins. Confessing one's intent to sin, prior to the actual sin, itself, does not absolve one from their guilt when they do. I can blame B1 for many things, but not for my infidelity. 

I have never read another post that almost word for word described my own pre-A marriage, until now. I'm still shaking my head.


----------



## EI

Thundarr said:


> But I haven't figured out you're disagreement with Wolf and italianjob. *We each experienced different dynamics and there experiences is that of the BS doing their share to make the relationship good and the WS dropping the ball? I believe them.*


*I do, too.*


----------



## bfree

Rookie, thank you for answering my question. And I'd like to add thank you for starting this thread and allowing it to evolve as it has. I thought I was pretty savvy when it came to relationships and infidelity having worked with many men and couples in the past. But not only is this conversation darned interesting I'm learning about things I thought I already knew enough about in detail. Awesome discussion!


----------



## Rookie4

italianjob said:


> I agree that in most cases one flaw don't cause the destruction of a marriage, but if that flaw leads to infidelity, or other serious things like big financial problems, it could be considered a deal breaker by the other party, thus causing the end of the marriage.


Well, extreme flaws require extreme measures, I guess.


----------



## Rookie4

honcho said:


> So 8 years ago I had a stroke, I was ill and in the hospital. My marriage immediately became unhealthy at this point? If my spouse would have gone and cheated back then we could all point to the fact I was ill and I created the unhealthy marriage?


Some people have no sense of proportion. Do you think that is what I meant?


----------



## Rookie4

Thundarr said:


> You're clumping us all together then because I don't remember saying I was blameless for my first marriage exploding. I was a horrible husband by the end of it. Not because I was mean or abusive but instead because when she pulled away emotionally, I became clingy instead of setting boundaries. I knew I had to change if I wanted success in future relationships and I did.
> 
> But I haven't figured out you're disagreement with Wolf and italianjob. We each experienced different dynamics and their experiences is that of the BS doing their share to make the relationship good and the WS dropping the ball? I believe them.


I believe them, too.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Rookie, thank you for answering my question. And I'd like to add thank you for starting this thread and allowing it to evolve as it has. I thought I was pretty savvy when it came to relationships and infidelity having worked with many men and couples in the past. But not only is this conversation darned interesting I'm learning about things I thought I already knew enough about in detail. Awesome discussion!


Thank you. I try.


----------



## Thundarr

Rookie4 said:


> I believe them, too.


I actually thought you did Rookie but your comments are really easy to read wrong. I considered quoting you and saying 'what Rookie4 really means is .....' but I didn't want to put words in your mouth.


----------



## Rookie4

Of course I believe that some of our BS posters did all that they could to make their marriages healthy and successful. I , too, did what I thought was right for my family, and it was only in retrospect that I realized that my motivations were not as pure as I originally thought. ( not refering to Wolf or Italianjob, you understand) but only to my case.
Somehow, somewhere, I lost sight of my marriage in my quest for power and money. Well, I achieved my goals and have more money than a horse can sh*t, but what good does it do me?
I remember giving my secretary a list of family birthdays, and holidays, and told her to get an appropriate gift for each occasion. I was too busy to get my wife a present, or be there for her. Think about that, for a minute.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Of course I believe that some of our BS posters did all that they could to make their marriages healthy and successful. I , too, did what I thought was right for my family, and it was only in retrospect that I realized that my motivations were not as pure as I originally thought. ( not refering to Wolf or Italianjob, you understand) but only to my case.
> Somehow, somewhere, I lost sight of my marriage in my quest for power and money. Well, I achieved my goals and have more money than a horse can sh*t, but what good does it do me?
> I remember giving my secretary a list of family birthdays, and holidays, and told her to get an appropriate gift for each occasion. I was too busy to get my wife a present, or be there for her. Think about that, for a minute.


Sounds horrible to be honest. Did your wife ever complain and explain how she felt to you or just step outside?


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Sounds horrible to be honest. Did your wife ever complain and explain how she felt to you or just step outside?


She complained a lot. One of her faults is that she has anger management issues. I was home very little, we would have sex a lot, but also fight a lot.


----------



## wayword

I hope this isn't a threadjack but is this a place for WS's to work things out or talk about what they're going through or only express regret/remorse? [Edit: I hope no one mistakes my question for snark or snippiness -- I really don't want to make unwelcome comments.]

Because the longer I go, the more...angry I feel. Bereft. And it's only been a couple of days! The reality of my marriage is just...gray. And not the fun 'fifty shades' kind, either. I got choked up today when I realized I'll never hear anyone say anything comforting or sexy or flirty to me ever again, because my husband "doesn't do that." 

And he'll never have to, because as the Wronged Spouse, he gets to feel vindicated that everything he was doing is right, because I was the one who messed up, after all. And meanwhile I only am allowed to feel shame and remorse, and still feel alone at the end of the night when he's gone, and do everything his way when he's around. I don't get to talk about sex, or anything else in depth. No debates. No intellectual discussions. No nothing, just bills and house talk and baby issues. No adult fun, just turn-over-and-silence-until-he's-finished at 3 a.m. when it's convenient for him. The issues will remain, only now I won't even have the right to bring them up.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Seems like I've read your posts before. Your writing is so familiar. Probably coinkidink.

You do have options. Divorce, if he won't work on his problems. If you had divorced in the first place, would you be writing those things right now? 

Wouldn't you have found someone that likes to talk dirty and so forth? I don't get all of this. If whatever is going on is so terrible that you find yourself with someone else, why not just divorce and get it over with? 

You wouldn't even have those questions if there was no infidelity. It seems odd. Even if you just divorced after the infidelity, you would not have those issue. I don't get it. I really don't. It seems so simple.

ETA: Oh and by the way, I DO think it is wrong for him to treat you that way. Wrong wrong wrong. You do have a choice now as you did at that time.


----------



## Paladin

Wayword,

You can certainly vent here, and you will be surprised at the level of support you get so long as the following conditions remain true:

1. While posting here you do your level best to never justify your choice to cheat on your shtty (obviously he isn't here to defend himself) husband. There is never a justifiable reason to cheat.

2. If you are actively engaged in an affair of any kind (ea/pa) you put it on hold while getting advice here, as prince charming can wait a few weeks/months to play with you and vice versa without any harm. Generally speaking, unapologetically discussing on-going affairs will trigger people on this forum.

So on to some actual advice. You stated that you did not want to be "unmarried" but then go on to describe a situation between you and your husband that sounds very much dysfunctional and toxic, and very little like an actual marriage. If you feel like you will never have a voice because he is choosing to take the moral high ground and use your infidelity as a trump card to end all discussion and absolve himself from the effort of working on a marriage, you stand absolutely no chance at actually staying married or remaining faithful long term.

Also, as many here will tell you, a reconciliation is not possible without 100% commitment from BOTH spouses, regardless of who did what to who and when. Under the best circumstances a reconciliation grants two people the opportunity to fully commit to each other and the process of making the relationship between them as good as it can possibly get. The process of making the relationship as good as it can get requires open and honest, often times brutally honest, communication about absolutely everything. 

There is no room for "well I can never have x because my spouse just isn't like that" because as soon as that line of thinking takes root, so does the desire to find x by other means. Even if its hard to deal with or talk about, like if one spouse is totally vanilla in bed, but you want BDSM, or anything else that may seem unattainable at first glance, it has to be discussed and a middle ground has to be reached. 

If you are unwilling to be that vulnerable with him, or if he refuses, or is incapable of meeting you half way, you have to consider divorce, otherwise you will drown in the poisonous waters of resentment, and drag him with you if he gets scared and reaches out when you are past the point of no return. You only get one go around at life, is it worth spending the rest of it in misery out of principal?


----------



## soulpotato

Wayword, I found the Reconciliation thread the most supportive and helpful out of any of the threads on TAM. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> She complained a lot. One of her faults is that she has anger management issues. I was home very little, we would have sex a lot, but also fight a lot.


So her justification was that you provided a lot but weren't home a lot then so she started off the affair?


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

wayword said:


> The issues will remain, only now I won't even have the right to bring them up.


You're wrong. You absolutely do have the right to bring them up. It's IMPERATIVE that you do.

Your BS is IN R with you. HIS choice. He's a big boy and has made his decision to recover with you. Part of your work in that recovery now is to take that decision at face value and trust that he's made it because it's right for him.

Please don't tip-toe around him and think you have to sit there in sackcloth and ashes, rending your garments and denying your own feelings.

You letting your BS know about your fears and vulnerabilities is ESSENTIAL for a meaningful and eventually healthy R. 

It does need to be about YOUR feelings NOW though. Not about him or what he did or didn't do before the betrayal.

I am highly aware of the fact that if my WH will not or is unable to tell me how he feels and what he needs from our relationship, then I may as well take the relatively easy way out, walk away right now and be done with the difficult and painful path of R.

The Vesuvius of unexpressed feelings and subsequent resentments of BOTH of us, are what led to the explosion of the betrayal, I know that for sure.

I'm doing everything in my power to not let that happen again.

I will walk away if he is unable to expose his feelings and needs to me. He knows that now FINALLY, but it's taken 18 months of hard work to get there. 

You don't need to waste 18 months. Just let him KNOW how you feel. 

Starting from TODAY.


----------



## EI

BetrayedAgain7, I don't know your whole story, just bits and pieces from this thread and a few others. I just want to say that, other than myself,  your husband must be the most fortunate fWS on the planet. Your commitment to working on healing and improving yourself, and to understanding, accepting, forgiving, and loving your spouse, and to your relationship, as a whole, is absolutely remarkable. Just beautiful! YOU will be awesome, no matter what. Because you already are!


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Why thank you EI! I really appreciate your kind words. 



> YOU will be awesome, no matter what. Because you already are!


You see that in me, because that is what you already are and you are a very kind person.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> So her justification was that you provided a lot but weren't home a lot then so she started off the affair?


I really don't know, because she never attempted to justify her affair. After D-day, she was always remorseful and contrite.


----------



## jim123

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> You're wrong. You absolutely do have the right to bring them up. It's IMPERATIVE that you do.
> 
> Your BS is IN R with you. HIS choice. He's a big boy and has made his decision to recover with you. Part of your work in that recovery now is to take that decision at face value and trust that he's made it because it's right for him.
> 
> Please don't tip-toe around him and think you have to sit there in sackcloth and ashes, rending your garments and denying your own feelings.
> 
> You letting your BS know about your fears and vulnerabilities is ESSENTIAL for a meaningful and eventually healthy R.
> 
> It does need to be about YOUR feelings NOW though. Not about him or what he did or didn't do before the betrayal.
> 
> I am highly aware of the fact that if my WH will not or is unable to tell me how he feels and what he needs from our relationship, then I may as well take the relatively easy way out, walk away right now and be done with the difficult and painful path of R.
> 
> The Vesuvius of unexpressed feelings and subsequent resentments of BOTH of us, are what led to the explosion of the betrayal, I know that for sure.
> 
> I'm doing everything in my power to not let that happen again.
> 
> I will walk away if he is unable to expose his feelings and needs to me. He knows that now FINALLY, but it's taken 18 months of hard work to get there.
> 
> You don't need to waste 18 months. Just let him KNOW how you feel.
> 
> Starting from TODAY.


On the money here. The old M is dead anyway. Does it not make sense to fix everything?

The most important thing you can do is be honest and communicate.

To bring up these issues shows you care. To bring up these issues shows you are committed. To bring up these issues shows you trust him.

He may not take it well at first but it is the only way it will work.

Open up and trust him. Open up and ask for his help. It is in the presentation.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Wayword*
> I hope this isn't a threadjack but is this a place for WS's to work things out or talk about what they're going through or only express regret/remorse?



I think that this thread includes a place where a WS can get information to work things out. However, as you know we are limited, but still I think you can get some good help here.


You seem to be a person that wants to find actions that help and not just express regret/remorse. Although I think the expressing regret and remorse can be of some help, being informed of actions that can help you work things out is a very good step in you moving forward. Of course the home run step is that you get good information then TAKE ACTIONS that will get you better.


A few days ago on this thread you asked me about resources that can possible help you. I gave you several (post 1757) and was wondering if you have done any of them or if you think that they would be helpful?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/212954-lurking-waywards-118.html



Those resources that I gave you in the above linked post 1757 are resources that have been in somewhat the same situation you are in and have gotten better. Those resources maybe a lot of help to you. *What do you think?*


Paladin’s post 2231 is a very good post and one of his points is that you be brutally honest in you communications about your needs and how he can help. Of course you should use all the diplomacy that you can but the bottom line is that he know what you need, that you are desperate, and are vulnerable. If he is wiling to do better to meet your needs then you both need to strive to meet each other’s needs and be committed 100%. I am going to reprint some of Paladin’s words below as I think they are very valuable.




> The process of making the relationship as good as it can get requires open and honest, often times brutally honest, communication about absolutely everything.
> 
> 
> If you are unwilling to be that vulnerable with him, or if he refuses, or is incapable of meeting you half way, you have to consider divorce, otherwise you will drown in the poisonous waters of resentment, and drag him with you
> 
> 
> Also, as many here will tell you, a reconciliation is not possible without 100% commitment from BOTH spouses.


*Wayword
If you find that my post and Paladin’s post have the possibility of helping you then will you do any of them?*


----------



## soulpotato

EI said:


> BetrayedAgain7, I don't know your whole story, just bits and pieces from this thread and a few others. I just want to say that, other than myself,  your husband must be the most fortunate fWS on the planet. Your commitment to working on healing and improving yourself, and to understanding, accepting, forgiving, and loving your spouse, and to your relationship, as a whole, is absolutely remarkable. Just beautiful! YOU will be awesome, no matter what. Because you already are!


:iagree:


----------



## wayword

jim123 said:


> The most important thing you can do is be honest and communicate.
> 
> To bring up these issues shows you care. To bring up these issues shows you are committed. To bring up these issues shows you trust him.
> 
> He may not take it well at first but it is the only way it will work.
> 
> Open up and trust him. Open up and ask for his help. It is in the presentation.


I am hesitant to bring it up at an already stressful time. How can I bring this up at such a painful time without seeming like I'm victim blaming or asking too much?

I don't know _how _to trust him with any of this. It sounds stupid but I could trust strangers to be less judgmental and more open than i could him. I don't even know how to talk to him anymore -- it's been so long, I don't know where to start. I did meet with a counselor yesterday and we're working on something, so hopefully that will help. I just don't want to be the 'greedy' wife, asking him to do yet ANOTHER thing he doesn't want to do.


----------



## Rookie4

wayword said:


> I am hesitant to bring it up at an already stressful time. How can I bring this up at such a painful time without seeming like I'm victim blaming or asking too much?
> 
> I don't know _how _to trust him with any of this. It sounds stupid but I could trust strangers to be less judgmental and more open than i could him. I don't even know how to talk to him anymore -- it's been so long, I don't know where to start. I did meet with a counselor yesterday and we're working on something, so hopefully that will help. I just don't want to be the 'greedy' wife, asking him to do yet ANOTHER thing he doesn't want to do.


Do you have a Pastor, who could perhaps mediate? Or a close relative or friend that might help you get started communicating?


----------



## Healer

changedbeliefs said:


> During the R, I made it clear I would not be relegating myself to a house-arrest schedule, tabs on every single place I went, with every single person I went with, turning my phone in, or sitting down as she read my entire inbox.


Way to put your foot down. _That's_ how you deal with a BS, people. You da man! :allhail:


----------



## wayword

Mr Blunt said:


> *Wayword
> If you find that my post and Paladin’s post have the possibility of helping you then will you do any of them?*




Absolutely. I immediately ceased contact with other men and have begun getting help for my own issues. As for talking with my husband, Paladin is right;it doesn't sound like much of a marriage, does it? We're barely friends, on some levels. Opening up to him about what I need, after being shut down so early and for so long? Being that vulnerable, especially with such high stakes, is terrifying.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> So, you started the thread, did you? You know better than anyone else? Your post will be reported.


Dude, I've backed out of this thread for a while now, but wow, this is embarrassing.


----------



## Healer

changedbeliefs said:


> I'll say this bluntly, by intention: the same way she did before.


Lol.


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> Dude, I've backed out of this thread for a while now, but wow, this is embarrassing.


Sorry, dude, but I've been getting it from all sides, so I got a little testy. I'm glad you're back. For the record, you seem to be one of the more thoughtful posters.


----------



## Rookie4

WOW! 2248 posts and 3203 likes!!! Even with the threadjacks and bickering, this post has done it's job. I am really grateful to all posters who helped to make it a success and showed an open mind and compassionate heart........THANK YOU!!!!!!!!! I think that if the Mods are ok with it, it might now be closed. I hope that it will help WS's to come to TAM and has raised awareness of how EVERY poster should be treated fairly. thank you all again.


----------



## Almostrecovered




----------



## jim123

wayword said:


> I am hesitant to bring it up at an already stressful time. How can I bring this up at such a painful time without seeming like I'm victim blaming or asking too much?
> 
> I don't know _how _to trust him with any of this. It sounds stupid but I could trust strangers to be less judgmental and more open than i could him. I don't even know how to talk to him anymore -- it's been so long, I don't know where to start. I did meet with a counselor yesterday and we're working on something, so hopefully that will help. I just don't want to be the 'greedy' wife, asking him to do yet ANOTHER thing he doesn't want to do.


Strangers are not less judgmental, they are just not as invested nor have to live with the results.

It is your husband or is it you? More than likely it is a combination.

For most BH understanding the why is needed to heal. One thing for certain is he does not want this to happen again. 

It is how you present this. It is not blames shifting if you do not blame. You need his help.


----------



## 2ntnuf

jim123 said:


> Strangers are not less judgmental, they are just not as invested nor have to live with the results.
> 
> It is your husband or is it you? More than likely it is a combination.
> 
> For most BH understanding the why is needed to heal. One thing for certain is he does not want this to happen again.
> 
> It is how you present this. It is not blames shifting if you do not blame. You need his help.


Just like the other man. Many seem to forget this when they post here. He doesn't care. He wants sex with another man's wife. It's a badge of honor for him. He can have what he wants and doesn't have to invest much at all. It's a great accomplishment. 

How is it we forget that? The husband invested lots of time in many cases, and money. The husband had emotional cost invested. He got to know the one in your family who you hate and showed respect to you by treating them well. He kept his mouth shut when you complained about them and he wanted to rip them a new ahole. He came home instead of going for a beer right after work with his buddies whom he really wanted to go with and blow off some steam, which was sorely needed. He listened to you complain about what your mother/sister/brother/bff did and although he thought you were in the wrong just as much, he supported you. 

This is one reason it hurts so much. This is why he feels like he is worth so little. If someone else can buy you a drink and let you cry on his shoulder and get your devotion, body, praise and respect, why can't he after all the time and money he's invested? There is a high cost to being in a relationship, that is not gender specific. Apparently, it's easy for some to get what they want without investing anything, but a smile and a kind word. They must choose their victims carefully.


----------



## sidney2718

This may be of interest to some, but there is a new TV show about a cheating husband. Here's the URL:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/a...-and-hers-flashbacks.html?ref=television&_r=0


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



sidney2718 said:


> This may be of interest to some, but there is a new TV show about a cheating husband. Here's the URL:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/a...-and-hers-flashbacks.html?ref=television&_r=0


Saw that the other day. Basically, the premise is that a married teacher, I believe, has an affair with a married waitress. And it, I guess, follows them to show the fallout and how it affects both families. I have mixed feelings about the show, actually.


----------



## Regret214

Oh! I've got an idea!! They should make a show about someone with inoperable cancer and we can follow the remaining days of their life and see how horrible it is and the pain and grief it causes.

What's more sad about these stupid reality shows is that someone somewhere green lighted it because they thought it was a great idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

Regret214 said:


> Oh! I've got an idea!! They should make a show about someone with inoperable cancer and we can follow the remaining days of their life and see how horrible it is and the pain and grief it causes.
> 
> What's more sad about these stupid reality shows is that someone somewhere green lighted it because they thought it was a great idea.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The interesting point about the show is that the cheaters are presented sympathetically. I wonder what excuses they use to justify their behavior?


----------



## NatashaUK

I'm a very confused WS who's been lurking here a while. After reading stories on this site, I made a decision to end all contact with OM. (Our EA started after we met on holiday 8 weeks ago and the PA happened a fortnight ago). I'm determined to fight for my marriage and feel nauseous everyday at the potential hurt that could be caused for both my family and also OM's. 

If my marriage is going to end, it has got to be because it wasn't right 8 weeks ago, after 7 years together, and not because someone else turned my head. 

I never ever in a million years intended for this to happen.


----------



## NatashaUK

I hope I got all those acronyms right too. They've taken a while to get used to.


----------



## Rookie4

NatashaUK said:


> I hope I got all those acronyms right too. They've taken a while to get used to.


Welcome, Natasha, to TAM, and yes, you got them right
If you want to tell your story, there are posters here who will try to help you out of the mess you are in. there are also, unfortunately, posters who will treat you badly. My advice is to ignore them or report them. You will find that some of our WS posters and some BS posters can give you real good advice, from their own experiences. 
I am glad you are here. It shows that you are trying to regain your integrity, and take control of your life.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



NatashaUK said:


> I'm a very confused WS who's been lurking here a while. After reading stories on this site, I made a decision to end all contact with OM. (Our EA started after we met on holiday 8 weeks ago and the PA happened a fortnight ago). I'm determined to fight for my marriage and feel nauseous everyday at the potential hurt that could be caused for both my family and also OM's.
> 
> If my marriage is going to end, it has got to be because it wasn't right 8 weeks ago, after 7 years together, and not because someone else turned my head.
> 
> I never ever in a million years intended for this to happen.


Hi Natasha, welcome to TAM. I'm sorry things aren't going well in your marriage. As you've no doubt learned regardless what the problem(s) are/were cheating doesn't solve them and in fact it makes them 1000x worse. Quick question, does your husband know? Judging from the tone of your post I would assume not but I'd rather not assume.


----------



## NatashaUK

Thanks Rookie4. I completely understand that there will be people here to, quite rightly, will look on this with scorn and disdain. I full expect that. I feel that towards myself anyway.

My story? I'm in my early thirties, so is my husband. We have a 4 yr old and until having our child were happy enough. Parenting has really changed our dynamic (I read lots of posts on here from wives and sympathise). Whilst all my efforts were focused on my child, my husband focused on our financial security. Neither in the wrong, neither in the right but we lost our way as a couple somewhere down the road.

I’m ashamed of the way I was in those first couple of years after birth. I was so tired and exhausted all the time and going to other Mum and baby groups, I just bad mouthed my husband all day for his lack of support. In turn, that led to bad vibes from me and of course, he didn’t want to be anywhere near me, let alone support me. He felt that all I did was nagged and couldn’t handle me snapping. Two years of no sleep does make a person irritable somewhat!

I think if I’m honest, husband was always LD and I always initiated everything. Once I’d had a baby, and watched my body change completely, I developed a sense of shame about my appearance and so stopped initiating. Husband never made a move, and actually said some pretty hurtful things about my appearance, thinking he was being helpful, actually it was cruel and extremely upsetting. We don’t argue much and we have lots of discussions. We’ve had tears between the two of us where he feels terrible for the upset and insecurity he is causing me. I’ve been on a massive health and fitness drive and am in great shape. My motivation has always been that I just want my husband to love me again. He’s beautiful. I am so attracted to him but constant rejection, even now I am feeling good about myself, is incredibly hard. Friends and family have noticed my self esteem and confidence nose dive. My husband knows he causes me a lot of hurt with his words, rejection, lack of touch and lack of affection but says he just hasn’t got any space left to think about me and my needs. This issue has been going on and on for four years. I’ve threatened to leave countless times and things improve for a couple of weeks then go back to normal.

We haven’t managed to spend a lot of time alone just the two of us since we had our child which we both agree has had a very negative impact on our relationship. In fact, we are often like strangers and ships that pass in the night. We both work a lot and it’s difficult to organise time just the two of us. We also have reached a point where it’s a bit of a stand off with household responsibilities and chores. After my irritability at lack of support in those first few years after birth, I’ve been really working on my behaviour towards him, negotiating support both round the house and with our child, and also emotional support with me too. We both work long hours, but most things are left to me and I know that my resentment towards him about this is getting worse. I’ve tried to talk about it, we’ve been having counselling too and I’ve brought it up there but nothing changes there either. I just get told I’m hassling him and he’s tired/stressed etc. I did the Languages of Love test at the request of the counsellor and was shocked to see that acts of service came up top, above the affection category. It made me sit down and assess everything that’s going on with my life and I think I’m in a constant state of stress, but just manage it well. Little things like making me a coffee out of the blue and taking out the trash make me almost orgasm with love and affection towards him (OK, that’s an exaggeration of course but honestly these little things make all the difference).

So, needing a break I went away with friends a couple of months ago and met OM. It started as friends, we were both having marriage troubles and chatted the night away in our hotel lobby. He managed to find me online and the first few weeks was just conversation between two friends who both were feeling lonely and unloved in their respective relationships. He was full of brilliant advice and we met up a couple of times for lunch, keeping it platonic. It was evident that there was a spark. Things improved with my husband (because I believe I really consciously started to try and make things work, thanks to the advice of OM). Then on a night out, OM knew I’d be out and came to meet me. Things turned PA at that point. Meeting OM felt like a shock to the system and a crisis point situation. I always said if someone turned my head, I’d know my marriage was in trouble.

So, after it turned PA just the one time, and after lurking on here for answers, I broke down and said I couldn’t continue this friendship/relationship. He asked to meet me last week, which I did, and he said he just wanted me to be happy so respected my decision and has backed off since.

Things are no different at home. I sat Husband down last week to have an honest and frank discussion about my feelings and his. I told him that I need to feel loved and I also need some support to alleviate some stress going on in the home. He says he is blissfully happy and content and has everything he wants in life. I laid all my emotions down and told him I need more affection, support and love. Also time with him. That’s vitally important for our survival. I almost told him the full truth, but know that it will destroy him. As it has done me, emotionally these last couple of weeks.


----------



## NatashaUK

bfree said:


> Hi Natasha, welcome to TAM. I'm sorry things aren't going well in your marriage. As you've no doubt learned regardless what the problem(s) are/were cheating doesn't solve them and in fact it makes them 1000x worse. Quick question, does your husband know? Judging from the tone of your post I would assume not but I'd rather not assume.


No, he doesn't know.


----------



## Healer

Duguesclin said:


> The husband has to change, and Zanne has to believe in the change.


The _husband_ has to change??


----------



## vellocet

NatashaUK said:


> No, he doesn't know.



Do you want to reconcile with him? If so, do you think its fair to have these talks with him and let him think that he is the only one with a problem in the marriage?

Do you think holding this secret is fair to him, especially if he thinks he is the one that needs to do the heavy lifting in the marriage?

If you don't tell him, then at least don't let him think the problems are all him. YOU need a lot of work to do on yourself as well.

Not sure if I'd recommend marriage counseling if you aren't going to be honest.


----------



## Rookie4

NatashaUK said:


> No, he doesn't know.


Natasha, one of the first things you must do is accept responsibility for your actions. the second thing you must do is like Vellocet said, make sure that your husband knows that you accept that half of the marriage problems are yours. Considering that you are the one who cheated, you need to make more of an effort to repair what you broke. Ending the affair is good, but it is not nearly enough.


----------



## NatashaUK

Oh absolutely. It would take me all day to explain everything but I fully accept my faults and we discuss those openly at length too. I know that I use work as an escape and am working on rectifying that. I know I caused a lot of problems in those first years after little one which still cause resentment and I need to let that go. I also don't speak up about how I really feel and am nipping that in the bud too. Husband is so used to me carrying on like everything is ok, that this new trait is causing us problems and he says he is too stressed and he can't handle how I really feel sometimes. But I'm trying and opening up communication as best as I can.

I had a session with counsellor on my own at his request where I was honest. He didnt directly tell me not to say anything but asked probing questions about why it had got to that point and what I'd learnt/what was my plan going forward. He has also spoken to husband on his own and requested to see him again but not me. Not sure why.

Believe me, this has been tearing me up and I've thought of coming clean. I want to make it work, I want my little one to grow up in a complete family unit and I want to stay together. Two months ago I wouldn't have said the same thing. I thought it was heading for the end. I'd never condone cheating but if I'm to learn anything from it, its that I want and crave that love and affection from my husband. I want to make it work.

It was me who organised the counselling in the week after the holiday. Whilst things with OM at that point were platonic and friendship, I knew that talking to another man about my marriage was a red flag. My husband refused to go at first and he's still hating it, rightly so. I hate that he's doing something that feels like failure. It's different for us here in UK, therapy is a massive taboo. 

If I choose to come clean, I can guarantee that my marriage is over. I want to fight for it and I want to rekindle the love between us.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



NatashaUK said:


> No, he doesn't know.


Well my standard answer is that without total honesty there cannot be a healthy marriage. That elephant in the room is always going to skew both your perspectives. At some point he is going to notice (if he hasn't already) that something is off. You're going to assure him that everything is fine but it will eat away at both of you. Your guilt and his "gut" will drive a wedge into your relationship until neither if you will recognize the other. And when it does come out, and it always does, it is going to hurt 10x as much because not only will he see you as an adulterer but he will wonder how easily you deceived him for so long. You will be a stranger to him.


----------



## NatashaUK

And I completely accept responsibility for my actions. Crossing that line is out of order and that is my fault. That was my decision. My problems with lack of affection at home cannot be solved by jumping in the arms of someone else.


----------



## Pluto2

You can't do that with lies.
Your H will discover what you've been up to eventually, BS always do. Then I guarantee your marriage will be over, not because of the A, but all the lies and deceit that you would have toppled on top of the betrayal.

If you respect your H in the least, you have to be honest with him.


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## bfree

Natasha, I hate to be the one to say it but your (old) marriage is already over. It ended the day you broke your vows and allowed another man into your heart and body. The only question yet to be answered is do you want your new marriage to be built on a foundation of lies and deception or do you want your new marriage to be built on honesty and transparency.


----------



## bfree

One thing that you must address in counseling is how to erect stronger boundaries and institute check points so that you heed that little voice that you ignored this time around.


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## DvlsAdvc8

So... the guy is unresponsive and unsupportive of her needs. Is there anyone who thinks this is going to improve if she reveals that she's had a PA?

If he was unaccommodating to begin with, I'm inclined to think he becomes even less accommodating - if they stay married at all - because now he can be righteous.


----------



## NatashaUK

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



bfree said:


> Natasha, I hate to be the one to say it but your (old) marriage is already over. It ended the day you broke your vows and allowed another man into your heart and body. The only question yet to be answered is do you want your new marriage to be built on a foundation of lies and deception or do you want your new marriage to be built on honesty and transparency.


No heart involved. No body involved. I didn't take it that far. I nipped it in the bud immediately. 

As I said, I could tell him but that's the end if I do.


----------



## Forest

You mention that you "badmouthed", "nagged", and "snapped" at your husband. Does this seem like a successful strategy? Would it work on you, or how would you respond?

You resent your husband for not paying you more attention, yet turn your attention to another man.

You immediately feel it is wrong. You have red flags. Yet what do you do? 

In each case, you've acted in the opposite of the way you'd wish to be treated. Its only making things worse. When will this stop?


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## Marduk

NatashaUK said:


> And I completely accept responsibility for my actions. Crossing that line is out of order and that is my fault. That was my decision. My problems with lack of affection at home cannot be solved by jumping in the arms of someone else.


Respectfully, no you aren't accepting responsibility.

Accepting responsibility means you give him the right to make an informed decision about his mate given her infidelity.

That's his right, and you've taken that away.


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## NatashaUK

Hey Forest, thanks for taking the time to reply. 

I'm glad to say it has stopped. The bad mouthing and snapping was a couple of years ago and my husband accepts that he was also pretty awful at this time. He wasn't interested in our little one at this time and openly admits he was scared and overwhelmed so just grew distant from us (which made me nag and resent him). I also was getting about 2-4 hrs sleep per night, maximum, for two years. Over a year of that I was also back at work, struggling and feeling very alone. We snapped at one another. We nagged one another. No, its not a successful strategy and that's why its a time in our lives we have to let go and draw a line under.

Husband is well aware that his lack of affection is a problem. Yet he cant explain it, and is apologetic that he's not sure how to change this. I know he's sought advice from his ex about this and changing/explaining his behaviour. He says he is still attracted to me and in love with me, but he just forgets to show it. His friends have warned him in the past that he needs to show me more affection (he gets a bit offensive and derogatory towards me in public...for the laughs).

I am of course not looking for sympathy here. I know I'm in the wrong. But I'm addressing the issues and steps which have led me to this place. I've lurked here a while and knew posting here would be harsh. That's fine and I appreciate every reply.


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## italianjob

NatashaUK said:


> No heart involved. *No body involved. I didn't take it that far*. I nipped it in the bud immediately.
> 
> As I said, I could tell him but that's the end if I do.





NatashaUK said:


> *Then on a night out, OM knew I’d be out and came to meet me. Things turned PA at that point.* Meeting OM felt like a shock to the system and a crisis point situation. I always said if someone turned my head, I’d know my marriage was in trouble.
> 
> *So, after it turned PA just the one time*


I'm a little confused, was it a PA or there was no body involved?
Also, are you NC with the OM?


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## NatashaUK

Sorry Italian job I'm not sure what NC means.

I kissed him so that's PA, yes? I crossed that line.


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## italianjob

NatashaUK said:


> Sorry Italian job I'm not sure what NC means.
> 
> I kissed him so that's PA, yes? I crossed that line.


NC means No Contact, in other words: are you still in contact with him as a friend or have you ceased all contacts?

So it went physical, but there was no sex involved?


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## NatashaUK

Ceased all contact, no sex involved.


----------



## vellocet

NatashaUK said:


> Believe me, this has been tearing me up and I've thought of coming clean. I want to make it work, I want my little one to grow up in a complete family unit and I want to stay together.


I believe you and believe that you are remorseful.

You will find many here who say reconciliation is possible, and I believe that to be true.

But I don't believe it is true reconciliation if a WS keeps their secret. R would then be based on a lie by omission, not to mention the BS will end up being pretty much emotionally blackmailed into thinking it is them that need to do the heavy lifting.




> If I choose to come clean, I can guarantee that my marriage is over.


Honestly, and I hope this makes sense, but that is all the more reason TO tell him. Because if you don't, then you are keeping him in a marriage with someone he really doesn't know as well as he thought and are keeping information from him for your own end. He should get to make an informed decision about how his life turns out too.

And you never know, he may want to R anyway. You just don't know. But tricking him into staying married by lying to him by omission is just wrong.



> And I completely accept responsibility for my actions.


To COMPLETELY accept responsibility, you need to come clean.


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## italianjob

Natasha,
Sorry you have to go through this. 
I think you already found out that cheating never solves any problem, but just creates new problems and worsens existing ones.
The decision to tell or not tell your husband is obviously yours and yours only, just rembember there are a lot of things that need to be taken into consideration, many of which have been brought up by other posters and yourself.
I'll just remind you, if you decide not to tell, to make sure that your husband finding out on his own is not a likely possibility (I guess that sex not being involved you might have a better chance than most in this department) and that you really have the strenght to take it to your grave (this may sound easy to do, but often it's harder than you think). 
Finding out from a different source than you or beyond a reasonable timeframe usually makes things much worse than just telling the truth.
It will also be much harder work to make your marriage better, if only one of you has a clear idea of the extent of the damage.
My personal choice would be to come clean and tell everything, because I always feel that the truth pays better dividends in the long run, but that's just my opinion, of course. 
Keep the NC in effect, there's no way you can have a friendship with the OM without making more damage, especially if you won't tell your husband what happened.
You sound like a nice woman, I wish you the best, any path you choose.


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## Rookie4

Natasha, you have gotten off to a good start. We realize that this is tough, and that you need to consider what you are going to do, carefully. It is far better to take your time and make the right decisions ,than go gung ho and make the wrong ones (like having an EA). Listen to the advice, ask questions, and then do the best you can. You might want to look in on the Reconciliation Thread. There are several posters who are reconciling and can give you the benefit of their experience.


----------



## italianjob

Rookie4 said:


> Natasha, you have gotten off to a good start. We realize that this is tough, and that you need to consider what you are going to do, carefully. It is far better to take your time and make the right decisions ,than go gung ho and make the wrong ones (like having an EA). Listen to the advice, ask questions, and then do the best you can. You might want to look in on the Reconciliation Thread. There are several posters who are reconciling and can give you the benefit of their experience.


Well, IMO, a true reconciliation would _require_ her coming clean.
She can decide not to tell and work on her marriage, even ask for his help, and try to get the marriage to a better place. It's something important to do but not a reconciliation.

without all the cards on the table, she would be reconciling with herself, and that's all IMO


----------



## Mr Blunt

Natasha

First: Come clean…become honest because it helps with trust

Second: Get all the help you can to build yourself up and improve in ways you 
need to improve in

Third: Prepare your self as much as possible for your husband to divorce you

Forth: Tell him you will do anything he says in order to save the marriage and to 
work on improving the family.

Fifth: Pray that you both get the right help and that YOU *BOTH FOLLOW THE INSTUCTIONS in WORD AND ACTIONS.*


If there is such a thing as infidelity-Lite then that is what you did. I am in no way saying what you did is trivial but from your posts you kissed another man but did not have sex or get emotionally involved with OM. If that is true and your husband loves you then there is a great chance that eventfully you two can make the marriage work. IMO


You have stated some very huge issues that are hurting the relationship. Resentments, lack of showing love, and LT are issues to be greatly improved upon. Good counseling and BOTH of you tasking actions can greatly improve the first two. The LT can be improved drastically by using the medical community. 

I would also suggest that you read past posts by EI and B1. These two people had some of the same issues you and your husband have and they have rebounded very well. The husband, B1, had a LT count and with the medical assistance he has improved that issue drastically. The wife, EI, can relate to every thing you said. Their marriage is better now than it ever was. A lot of their posts are on the” Reconciliation” thread, in the “Coping With Infidelity” section.


----------



## NatashaUK

Thank you. I will take a look at that.

What does LT mean? Sorry I dont know that one.

I appreciate everyone's comments here. especially as it seems so many have been hurt.

I've been there too. Cheated on by an ex whom I lived with, and had a buisness with...step kids. I always say, to this day, I wish I'd never known. I didn't have a clue when we were together at all and the discovery just caused unnecessary pain. That's why I'm reluctant to be completely honest with my husband. Especially as this was a one time, one night mistake that went too far. I feel I can separate the marriage from the mistake and learn from it, without it causing my husband and child any unecessary pain. 

I know that statement will cause strong judgement and incite opinion but it's where I feel I am headed.


----------



## Forest

Natasha,

I, like most, wrongly assumed that sex hand been involved. The "we just kissed" line is probably the single biggest lie that is thrown out in affair-speak. Nearly always a lie.

I believe you, which is why I'll say that I think you can actually reconcile this thing pretty well. You still crossed a line, still betrayed your husband, but it so much better that it went no further. You've shown that you have character and conscience. Two of the things sorely lacking in many cheaters.

If you can tell your husband of this with as much sorrow and remorse as you've shown here, I would hope he'd immediately see how sorry you are, and recognize you held fast where so many fail.

The coming weeks and months will still be unpleasant, but not nearly the hell on earth that usually comes around.

For me personally, I'm not absolutely sure you'd need to confess what you've described. That will probably not be a popular opinion though.

(I think LT means "low testosterone". In the US right now there are all sorts of clinics popping up addressing this for the aging baby boomers. They give you shots or something to increase testosterone, which is supposed to build strength, stamina, and -- Sexual Performance!)


----------



## Healer

Duguesclin said:


> Well, I think her husband is part of the problem that has led to this affair.


That's fascinating.


----------



## Wolf1974

Healer said:


> That's fascinating.


It's something alright. Not sure I would use the word fascinating


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> In a marriage in which BOTH parties are on the same page, and are having their needs/wants met by the other party, cheating is impossible, unless somebody is mentally ill.


Very, very wrong. This statement asserts that selfish, sh*tty people don't exist. That there has to be something fundamentally wrong with a situation for someone to do something awful or that people only do awful things because of mental illness. I think you probably know this statement is false. 

Bad people exist. Bad people do bad things for no other reason than that they're rotten, selfish people. If you don't realize this, you've got a lot to learn about people.


----------



## Healer

italianjob said:


> Are all serial cheaters mentally ill?


Nope, and not all serial killers are either. Some are just evil. Sometimes people do awful things because they're awful people. Not every horrible deed has to be caused by one's environment or mental illness. 

This is a bleeding heart liberal take on things. No accountability. Someone had to make them do this horrible thing. Rubbish. Sh*tty people exist and do sh*tty things for no other reason than, you guessed it, they're sh*tty.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I never mentioned serial cheaters, but Yes I would believe that serial cheaters have mental health issues.


Is being a sh*tty person a clinical condition? What a cop out. Of course there are serial cheaters with mental health issues. There are also serial cheaters who are mentally stable but just awful human beings. Again, I think you probably know this.


----------



## bandit.45

NatashaUK said:


> Thank you. I will take a look at that.
> 
> What does LT mean? Sorry I dont know that one.
> 
> I appreciate everyone's comments here. especially as it seems so many have been hurt.
> 
> I've been there too. Cheated on by an ex whom I lived with, and had a buisness with...step kids. I always say, to this day, I wish I'd never known. I didn't have a clue when we were together at all and the discovery just caused unnecessary pain. That's why I'm reluctant to be completely honest with my husband. Especially as this was a one time, one night mistake that went too far. I feel I can separate the marriage from the mistake and learn from it, without it causing my husband and child any unecessary pain.
> 
> I know that statement will cause strong judgement and incite opinion but it's where I feel I am headed.


What you did was not a mistake Natasha. A mistake is grabbing the wrong sized blouse off the sales rack. A mistake is pouring the wrong amount of sugar in a cake mix because you read the recipe wrong. 

Your affair was not a mistake. It was a choice. You willfully entered into that affair knowing the possible outcomes. You willingly had sex with another man knowing that doing so could destroy your marriage and family. 

Calling it a mistake is the worst form of minimization. Continuing to ca it that will only set you up to repeat the same behavior down the road with someone else. 

Have the courage to own your sh!t Natasha. Don't run from one bad decision to a worse one. Your husband has a right to know the woman he loves betrayed him. He has a right to make an informed decision as to what to do next.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Healer said:


> Is being a sh*tty person a clinical condition? What a cop out. Of course there are serial cheaters with mental health issues. There are also serial cheaters who are mentally stable but just awful human beings. Again, I think you probably know this.


And some people are just wired wrong. Defective and unable to change. That's why they used to throw such people off cliffs or stone them to death...to get those traits out of the gene pool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



bandit.45 said:


> And some people are just wired wrong. Defective and unable to change. That's why they used to throw such people off cliffs or stone them to death...to get those traits out of the gene pool.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Sigh* I miss stonings...


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## Mr Blunt

> *By Natasha*
> I'm reluctant to be completely honest with my husband. Especially as this was a one time, one night mistake that went too far. I feel I can separate the marriage from the mistake and learn from it, without it causing my husband and child any unecessary pain.





> *By Forest*
> For me personally, I'm not absolutely sure you'd need to confess what you've described.




If my wife kisses a man at her low point, then cut it off, no emotional or sexual involvement I might be better off not knowing. *I think the big issue here is that you make sure that you address your part as to why you went that far*. Going that far(kissing) is one step before emotional and sexual involvement. If you get needy again because your husband is not showing you enough love are you going to be vulnerable again for a kiss, emotional involvement, or sex?



As far as you confessing, what is you answer to Bfree post below?



> *By Bfree*
> At some point he is going to notice (if he hasn't already) that something is off. You're going to assure him that everything is fine but it will eat away at both of you. Your guilt and his "gut" will drive a wedge into your relationship until neither if you will recognize the other.


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> And some people are just wired wrong. Defective and unable to change. That's why they used to throw such people off cliffs or stone them to death...to get those traits out of the gene pool.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





bfree said:


> *Sigh* I miss stonings...



:slap:

I think a lot of both of you..... really disappointed in these types of comments.


----------



## warlock07

bandit.45 said:


> And some people are just wired wrong. Defective and unable to change. That's why they used to throw such people off cliffs or stone them to death...to get those traits out of the gene pool.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did you ever see a real stoning ?

You wouldn't say that if you did bandit.


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## Rookie4

Healer said:


> Very, very wrong. This statement asserts that selfish, sh*tty people don't exist. That there has to be something fundamentally wrong with a situation for someone to do something awful or that people only do awful things because of mental illness. I think you probably know this statement is false.
> 
> Bad people exist. Bad people do bad things for no other reason than that they're rotten, selfish people. If you don't realize this, you've got a lot to learn about people.


Your statement has no meaning. Re-read that post of mine again. The first part explains the later part. I clearly state, in a marriage where BOTH parties are on the same page , AND are having their needs met. I don't mind you disagreeing, but get it right, and don't half-ass read my post then b*tch about it.


----------



## jim123

Rookie4 said:


> Your statement has no meaning. Re-read that post of mine again. The first part explains the later part. I clearly state, in a marriage where BOTH parties are on the same page , AND are having their needs met. I don't mind you disagreeing, but get it right, and don't half-ass read my post then b*tch about it.


Good people cheat. People in happy marriages cheat. Both are less likely to cheat but it does happen.


----------



## warlock07

NatashaUK said:


> Thanks Rookie4. I completely understand that there will be people here to, quite rightly, will look on this with scorn and disdain. I full expect that. I feel that towards myself anyway.
> 
> My story? I'm in my early thirties, so is my husband. We have a 4 yr old and until having our child were happy enough. Parenting has really changed our dynamic (I read lots of posts on here from wives and sympathise). Whilst all my efforts were focused on my child, my husband focused on our financial security. Neither in the wrong, neither in the right but we lost our way as a couple somewhere down the road.
> 
> I’m ashamed of the way I was in those first couple of years after birth. I was so tired and exhausted all the time and going to other Mum and baby groups, I just bad mouthed my husband all day for his lack of support. In turn, that led to bad vibes from me and of course, he didn’t want to be anywhere near me, let alone support me. He felt that all I did was nagged and couldn’t handle me snapping. Two years of no sleep does make a person irritable somewhat!
> 
> I think if I’m honest, husband was always LD and I always initiated everything. Once I’d had a baby, and watched my body change completely, I developed a sense of shame about my appearance and so stopped initiating. Husband never made a move, and actually said some pretty hurtful things about my appearance, thinking he was being helpful, actually it was cruel and extremely upsetting. We don’t argue much and we have lots of discussions. We’ve had tears between the two of us where he feels terrible for the upset and insecurity he is causing me. I’ve been on a massive health and fitness drive and am in great shape. My motivation has always been that I just want my husband to love me again. He’s beautiful. I am so attracted to him but constant rejection, even now I am feeling good about myself, is incredibly hard. Friends and family have noticed my self esteem and confidence nose dive. My husband knows he causes me a lot of hurt with his words, rejection, lack of touch and lack of affection but says he just hasn’t got any space left to think about me and my needs. This issue has been going on and on for four years. I’ve threatened to leave countless times and things improve for a couple of weeks then go back to normal.
> 
> We haven’t managed to spend a lot of time alone just the two of us since we had our child which we both agree has had a very negative impact on our relationship. In fact, we are often like strangers and ships that pass in the night. We both work a lot and it’s difficult to organise time just the two of us. We also have reached a point where it’s a bit of a stand off with household responsibilities and chores. After my irritability at lack of support in those first few years after birth, I’ve been really working on my behaviour towards him, negotiating support both round the house and with our child, and also emotional support with me too. We both work long hours, but most things are left to me and I know that my resentment towards him about this is getting worse. I’ve tried to talk about it, we’ve been having counselling too and I’ve brought it up there but nothing changes there either. I just get told I’m hassling him and he’s tired/stressed etc. I did the Languages of Love test at the request of the counsellor and was shocked to see that acts of service came up top, above the affection category. It made me sit down and assess everything that’s going on with my life and I think I’m in a constant state of stress, but just manage it well. Little things like making me a coffee out of the blue and taking out the trash make me almost orgasm with love and affection towards him (OK, that’s an exaggeration of course but honestly these little things make all the difference).
> 
> So, needing a break I went away with friends a couple of months ago and met OM. It started as friends, we were both having marriage troubles and chatted the night away in our hotel lobby. He managed to find me online and the first few weeks was just conversation between two friends who both were feeling lonely and unloved in their respective relationships. He was full of brilliant advice and we met up a couple of times for lunch, keeping it platonic. It was evident that there was a spark. Things improved with my husband (because I believe I really consciously started to try and make things work, thanks to the advice of OM). Then on a night out, OM knew I’d be out and came to meet me. Things turned PA at that point. Meeting OM felt like a shock to the system and a crisis point situation. I always said if someone turned my head, I’d know my marriage was in trouble.
> 
> So, after it turned PA just the one time, and after lurking on here for answers, I broke down and said I couldn’t continue this friendship/relationship. He asked to meet me last week, which I did, and he said he just wanted me to be happy so respected my decision and has backed off since.
> 
> Things are no different at home. I sat Husband down last week to have an honest and frank discussion about my feelings and his. I told him that I need to feel loved and I also need some support to alleviate some stress going on in the home. He says he is blissfully happy and content and has everything he wants in life. I laid all my emotions down and told him I need more affection, support and love. Also time with him. That’s vitally important for our survival. I almost told him the full truth, but know that it will destroy him. As it has done me, emotionally these last couple of weeks.



let me get this straight. You cheated on your husband and made him feel like sh!t and inadequate?

Do you know why he had that talk ? He could sense something is very very wrong. And you used that opportunity to guilt him even further and make him feel inadequate because you cheated on him. 

Have you considered that he is entirely happy and content, not because you provide him with everything but his happiness is not entirely dependent on you giving him stuff. 

Have you considered that you are one of those women that are like a bottomless pit that need constant validation ?

From what I understand, you compaints seem made up or you expected him to change after the marriage. What is more likely is that you will never find one guy who will be able to fill your quota of attention. Usually these women end up being serial cheaters.


Just imagine, he goes on some trip and f*cks some hotter younger women with a much better and tighetr body, has an affair with her for a few months and then comes back and complains how inadequate you are as a wife, how unattractive you are and how you don't fulfill any needs around the house, what would you call him ? I think unless it happens to you, you will appreciate it


This is your first affair and as hard as you are trying to blame it on your husband and the need for attention, you are also feeling a lot of guilt. Don't kill this person. The more you hide this, the more worse person you become. Not only did you cheat the person who trusts you the most in his life, you also destroyed someone else's marriage. 


There is just one last decent thing that you can do here



> I almost told him the full truth, but know that it will destroy him.


This is a sign of extreme narcissism. You think too much of yourself. The news will damage him. But he will recover and move on. With or without you.


----------



## Rookie4

jim123 said:


> Good people cheat. People in happy marriages cheat. Both are less likely to cheat but it does happen.


Good people cheat...yes. People in happy marriages....no.


----------



## Rookie4

warlock07 said:


> let me get this straight. You cheated on your husband and made him feel like sh!t and inadequate?
> 
> Do you know why he had that talk ? He could sense something is very very wrong. And you used that opportunity to guilt him even further and make him feel inadequate because you cheated on him.
> 
> Have you considered that he is entirely happy and content, not because you provide him with everything but his happiness is not entirely dependent on you giving him stuff.
> 
> Have you considered that you are one of those women that are like a bottomless pit that need constant validation ?
> 
> From what I understand, you compaints seem made up or you expected him to change after the marriage. What is more likely is that you will never find one guy who will be able to fill your quota of attention. Usually these women end up being serial cheaters.
> 
> 
> Just imagine, he goes on some trip and f*cks some hotter younger women with a much better and tighetr body, has an affair with her for a few months and then comes back and complains how inadequate you are as a wife, how unattractive you are and how you don't fulfill any needs around the house, what would you call him ? I think unless it happens to you, you will appreciate it
> 
> 
> This is your first affair and as hard as you are trying to blame it on your husband and the need for attention, you are also feeling a lot of guilt. Don't kill this person. The more you hide this, the more worse person you become. Not only did you cheat the person who trusts you the most in his life, you also destroyed someone else's marriage.
> 
> 
> There is just one last decent thing that you can do here
> 
> 
> 
> This is a sign of extreme narcissism. You think too much of yourself. The news will damage him. But he will recover and move on. With or without you.


Come on, Warlock, a little sense of proportion, maybe? It was a kiss, she didn't rape the guy. It is a serious business, to be sure, but it isn't the end of the world , nor even her marriage. Stop berating her. She is trying to learn.


----------



## warlock07

To be fair, she mentioned that it was a kiss a few posts after that.


----------



## Rookie4

warlock07 said:


> To be fair, she mentioned that it was a kiss a few posts after that.


Okey doke. But it is still a serious situation, and I agree 100% that she should be honest about it.


----------



## jim123

Rookie4 said:


> Good people cheat...yes. People in happy marriages....no.


They do and more than you think,


----------



## Rookie4

jim123 said:


> They do and more than you think,


Sorry, I don't agree.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Your statement has no meaning. Re-read that post of mine again. The first part explains the later part. I clearly state, in a marriage where BOTH parties are on the same page , AND are having their needs met. I don't mind you disagreeing, but get it right, and don't half-ass read my post then b*tch about it.


Keep trying. It's futile, but entertaining none the less.


----------



## larry.gray

Forest said:


> Natasha,
> 
> I, like most, wrongly assumed that sex hand been involved. The "we just kissed" line is probably the single biggest lie that is thrown out in affair-speak. Nearly always a lie.


The problem Natasha will face if she talks to her husband is that he's going to have a hard time buying it was only a kiss. If he does any research at all he's going to find lots of people telling him that kiss = sex in affair land.


----------



## Healer

What's fascinating, rookie, is that your posts and retorts assume that you're talking to complete and utter morons. I don't believe there's a poster here that's as dumb as you make them out to be. Everyone here sees you for exactly what you are. You are pretty awesome at baiting though, I have to give you that. What's your real story? I think we'd all be interested to hear it.


----------



## Thundarr

Rookie4 said:


> Good people cheat...yes. People in happy marriages....no.


It's more than happy/unhappy. Happiness is only one ingredient. A more inclusive list might be happy, content, proud, respectful, humble.

The killers of being faithful are insecurity, entitlement, selfishness, or naivity. It only takes one. A perfectly happy but insecure partner is vulnerable. Happy but naive partner is vulnerable. An entitled or selfish partner will not be happy for long which means their unhappiness is a symptom and not the cause.


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> What's fascinating, rookie, is that your posts and retorts assume that you're talking to complete and utter morons. I don't believe there's a poster here that's as dumb as you make them out to be. Everyone here sees you for exactly what you are. You are pretty awesome at baiting though, I have to give you that. What's your real story? I think we'd all be interested to hear it.


Read my threads. There are quite a few posters that know my story. I used to be as full of hate and as big a WS basher as a lot of posters, but I guess I grew up. People like EI and B1 and Dig and Regret got me to thinking that maybe these issues weren't as cut and dried as some posters seem to think. At least I stand and fall by my own words, while some posters cannot support their position without lying and making up things. I will always debate an honest poster, but somebody who is so ignorant as to put words in my mouth, that I didn't say, I won't even bother.


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> What's fascinating, rookie, is that your posts and retorts assume that you're talking to complete and utter morons. I don't believe there's a poster here that's as dumb as you make them out to be. Everyone here sees you for exactly what you are. You are pretty awesome at baiting though, I have to give you that. What's your real story? I think we'd all be interested to hear it.


It amazes me why some posters even bother to respond to my posts, they don't read them and will make up lies about them anyway, so what is the point?


----------



## Rookie4

If you want a brief synopsis of my story, I would be OK with pming it to you.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> It amazes me why some posters even bother to respond to my posts, they don't read them and will make up lies about them anyway, so what is the point?


Talk to us man. You're clearly very conflicted and confused. This is a place where people come for help. Maybe if you start being honest with yourself, and stop your condescension of everyone here you perceive to be your enemy, you might find the answers you're looking for.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> If you want a brief synopsis of my story, I would be OK with pming it to you.


No, that's OK. I think I get the gist.


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> Talk to us man. You're clearly very conflicted and confused. This is a place where people come for help. Maybe if you start being honest with yourself, and stop your condescension of everyone here you perceive to be your enemy, you might find the answers you're looking for.


 I'm not confused at all. What is confusing is why you continue to putting words in my mouth. But you cannot help yourself, can you. You simply won't learn to respect other posters that disagree with you. So , Who did I say was my enemy? You said it, so prove it. Can you not understand the language? Dude, I've tried to be decent to you, but it's a waste of time. Until you answer my posts, AS THEY ARE WRITTEN, we've got nothing to talk about.


----------



## Nostromo

NatashaUK said:


> If I choose to come clean, I can guarantee that my marriage is over. I want to fight for it and I want to rekindle the love between us.


Your fear while understandable is unfounded. The fact is your marriage will cease to be a marriage if you do not confess to him. The only hope you have of fixing this is with honesty. 
The marriage bond between the two of you as 'one flesh' will remain permanently fragmented without complete transparency between the two of you. You will be unknowingly sentencing yourself to live in a continuous state of guilt and shame (if you have a strong conscience that is) for forcing him to live a lie.

Perhaps you are thinking of playing martyr 'for their sake' and accepting this as your lot in life, but the chances of you successfully swallowing your guilt and moving on without your web of lies affecting your daily behavior toward your husband and even your child are slim to none. You will eventually crack under the pressure and your husband in his ignorance will almost certainly blame himself for your state and eventually take matters into his own hands to 'fix' you. Which will undoubtedly only make you feel even more ashamed. 

You might be one of the 'lucky' few to keep your sin buried under the floorboards, but if you really love your spouse your conscience will eventually eat away at you like the beating of the tell tale heart. The path you choose from this day forward will be the deciding factor for the rest of your natural life. 
Please do not allow your fear of facing the consequences for your actions dictate to you which way to go. Your husband may leave or he may stay but that is his decision to make. If you rob him of that you will only be adding 'theft' to your long list of transgressions against him.


----------



## Rookie4

Geez, people, ease up. She kissed a guy, she didn't kidnap the Lindbergh baby.


----------



## Rookie4

larry.gray said:


> The problem Natasha will face if she talks to her husband is that he's going to have a hard time buying it was only a kiss. If he does any research at all he's going to find lots of people telling him that kiss = sex in affair land.


Right or wrong, this is true. Natasha's husband is going to assume it was more than a kiss.


----------



## Nostromo

NatashaUK said:


> I'm a very confused WS who's been lurking here a while. After reading stories on this site, I made a decision to end all contact with OM. (Our EA started after we met on holiday 8 weeks ago and the PA happened a fortnight ago).





NatashaUK said:


> So, needing a break I went away with friends a couple of months ago and met OM. It started as friends, *we were both having marriage troubles and chatted the night away in our hotel lobby*. He managed to find me online and the first few weeks was just conversation between two friends who both were feeling lonely and unloved in their respective relationships. He was full of brilliant advice and *we met up a couple of times for lunch, keeping it platonic. It was evident that there was a spark.* Things improved with my husband (because I believe I really consciously started to try and make things work, thanks to the advice of OM). Then on a night out, OM knew I’d be out and came to meet me. *Things turned PA at that point.* Meeting OM felt like a shock to the system and a crisis point situation. I always said if someone turned my head, I’d know my marriage was in trouble.
> 
> *So, after it turned PA just the one time*, and after lurking on here for answers, I broke down and said I couldn’t continue this friendship/relationship. He asked to meet me last week, which I did, and he said he just wanted me to be happy so respected my decision and has backed off since.





Rookie4 said:


> Geez, people, ease up. She kissed a guy, she didn't kidnap the Lindbergh baby.


Rookie I don't know if you just skim through posts and then respond, but there is simply no way a rational thinking human being could have fully read the above quotes and then dismissed what happened between these two as anything less than a long term EA that turned somewhat physical. 
I get that you like to play 'devil's advocate' and be contrarian on here, but when somebody is on the fence as to whether or not they should confess to their spouse that really isn't the optimal time to trivialize what they did. 
Something they already feel inclined to do themselves due to their shame. Let me ask you a sincere question and I would really like an answer from you. Do you actually think reconciled or not that if her husband sat down and read your comment at some point in the future tomorrow or a few years down the road, that he would be nodding his head in agreement with your assessment of his wife's behavior?


----------



## Rookie4

Nostromo said:


> Rookie I don't know if you just skim through posts and then respond, but there is simply no way a rational thinking human being could have fully read the above quotes and then dismissed what happened between these two as anything less than a long term EA that turned somewhat physical.
> I get that you like to play 'devil's advocate' and be contrarian on here, but when somebody is on the fence as to whether or not they should confess to their spouse that really isn't the optimal time to trivialize what they did.
> Something they already feel inclined to do themselves due to their shame. Let me ask you a sincere question and I would really like an answer from you. Do you actually think reconciled or not that if her husband sat down and read your comment at some point in the future tomorrow or a few years down the road, that he would be nodding his head in agreement with your assessment of his wife's behavior?


First, they met 8 weeks ago, and I'm sure that the EA didn't start the moment they met. So the EA was less than 8 weeks, this is hardly an LTA. We have some WS's whose affairs lasted for years. Second, the PA part was a single incident without sex. Hardly the end of the world. If her husband is a rational individual, I would bet that he would view this as a serious problem, but not the all encompassing tragedy that some posters would like it to be. As far as whether he would agree with me or not, I stated my opinion, and if the WS tells her H, perhaps he can come here and tell you himself. I mean it's your fantasy, so you can script this scenerio any way you want to. BTW, I was one of the posters who advised the WS to be honest with her husband, I think that she has gotten the message.


----------



## NatashaUK

I wish you all the best in your current situations and thank everyone for posting.

There's too much information about us both that happened in the last few years before I even set eyes on OM. 

To answer the question about noticing... No. My husband has noticed nothing. This is one of our fundamental issues. He agrees and knows he lives in his own bubble. He's said himself many times that he has no space in his brain for me and my needs. His drive for money and his work stress is consuming and blinds him. But I'm not here to slag him off. I came here to find an answer and maybe a similar situation I could relate to. Many here are rightly hurt and rebuilding their own lives. I don't think that this is a place for me in my current situation. I have emotionally stoned myself these last couple of weeks. Having strangers do it too after only a couple of posts is just too much for me at this time.


----------



## cpacan

Rookie4 said:


> First, they met 8 weeks ago, and I'm sure that the EA didn't start the moment they met. So the EA was less than 8 weeks, this is hardly an LTA. We have some WS's whose affairs lasted for years. Second, the PA part was a single incident without sex. Hardly the end of the world. If her husband is a rational individual, I would bet that he would view this as a serious problem, but not the all encompassing tragedy that some posters would like it to be. As far as whether he would agree with me or not, I stated my opinion, and if the WS tells her H, perhaps he can come here and tell you himself. I mean it's your fantasy, so you can script this scenerio any way you want to. BTW, I was one of the posters who advised the WS to be honest with her husband, I think that she has gotten the message.


Yes, you were one of those who adviced honesty, but at the same time, you try to downplay/minimize the betrayal. To many betrayed people, it's not as much the physical acts as the betrayal and dishonesty that is damaging to the soul (which is also the main reason she has to come clean).


----------



## Deejo

Don't tell him. Decide if this is really the man you want to spend the rest of your life with. Finish the relationship you are in before you start another. 
The end.


----------



## cpacan

Deejo said:


> Don't tell him. Decide if this is really the man you want to spend the rest of your life with. Finish the relationship you are in before you start another.
> The end.


Could you explain why you advice her to keep lying? Is it under the assumption that the relationship is over anyway?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



EI said:


> :slap:
> 
> I think a lot of both of you..... really disappointed in these types of comments.


You realize I was joking right?


----------



## bandit.45

warlock07 said:


> Did you ever see a real stoning ?
> 
> You wouldn't say that if you did bandit.


Read the Old Testament. It's an historical fact. 

I'm not advocating it. Just making a point that serial cheaters are broken in a way that is much different than one-time waywards. 

I think it would be rude to stone the OP to death. She's not the type I'm referring to.


----------



## Rookie4

cpacan said:


> Yes, you were one of those who adviced honesty, but at the same time, you try to downplay/minimize the betrayal. To many betrayed people, it's not as much the physical acts as the betrayal and dishonesty that is damaging to the soul (which is also the main reason she has to come clean).


I don't downplay it at all. I said it was serious and it is, but it is not Armageddon, either. WE owe it to the OP to keep this in perspective and not go overboard. For example, how many posters have already told her to be honest? I think she gets the idea. How long do you beat a dead horse?


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> You realize I was joking right?


Some of us did, but did Natasha? We have known you for a while, but she is a first time poster, and is very unsure of herself. Saying things like this is a bad idea.


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> Geez, people, ease up. She kissed a guy, she didn't kidnap the Lindbergh baby.


Rookie, this is your judgment on the extent of her infidelity. You don't know how her H will respond. Just because a kiss is not a big deal to you doesn't mean any other spouse would agree with you. To many, an EA is just as much of a betrayal as a PA. She permitted a third party into the marriage and that is undisputed. The OP was engaged in conduct that amounts to a betrayal and your minimizing her behavior does not help.


----------



## Wolf1974

warlock07 said:


> Did you ever see a real stoning ?
> 
> You wouldn't say that if you did bandit.


Yes. 

And a beheading in Saudi Arabia. 

Bit extreme for adultry. Plenty of crimes they could be applicable for


----------



## Rookie4

NatashaUK said:


> I wish you all the best in your current situations and thank everyone for posting.
> 
> There's too much information about us both that happened in the last few years before I even set eyes on OM.
> 
> To answer the question about noticing... No. My husband has noticed nothing. This is one of our fundamental issues. He agrees and knows he lives in his own bubble. He's said himself many times that he has no space in his brain for me and my needs. His drive for money and his work stress is consuming and blinds him. But I'm not here to slag him off. I came here to find an answer and maybe a similar situation I could relate to. Many here are rightly hurt and rebuilding their own lives. I don't think that this is a place for me in my current situation. I have emotionally stoned myself these last couple of weeks. Having strangers do it too after only a couple of posts is just too much for me at this time.


I'm sorry you are leaving, but I told you that there would be posters who would hound you to death, didn't I? Some are so filled with hate and so cowardly, that their purpose isn't to help you but only to make you feel worse than you already do.


----------



## Wolf1974

jim123 said:


> They do and more than you think,


He isn't going to agree 

He really isn't in a position to be able to agree. Because if he admitted it is possible then he would have to take a hard look at his marriage and his position. Some aren't capable of that


----------



## Rookie4

Deejo said:


> Don't tell him. Decide if this is really the man you want to spend the rest of your life with. Finish the relationship you are in before you start another.
> The end.


I agree with the second part, not the first.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> He isn't going to agree
> 
> He really isn't in a position to be able to agree. Because if he admitted it is possible then he would have to take a hard look at his marriage and his position. Some aren't capable of that


I divorced my wife 4 1/2 years ago. Do you even know what you are talking about?


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I'm not confused at all. What is confusing is why you continue to putting words in my mouth. But you cannot help yourself, can you. You simply won't learn to respect other posters that disagree with you. So , Who did I say was my enemy? You said it, so prove it. Can you not understand the language? Dude, I've tried to be decent to you, but it's a waste of time. Until you answer my posts, AS THEY ARE WRITTEN, we've got nothing to talk about.


You really use that "putting words in my mouth" as your fallback, don't you? Nobody is doing that. You are being called out on the content which you post on this forum.

Where have I disrespected those that disagree with me? "You said it, so prove it." Well, you're at odds with basically everyone but waywards. That's very, very telling. And you actually put down betrayed spouses, simply because...they are betrayed spouses. Very puzzling. You seem to have a lot of anger and resentment for people who were cheated on. Why is that? Are you angry with yourself and are projecting? Talk to us man.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Some are so filled with hate and so cowardly, that their purpose isn't to help you but only to make you feel worse than you already do.


To whom are you referring? This certainly sounds like an attack. Perhaps you should qualify. Who here is cowardly rookie?


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I don't downplay it at all. I said it was serious and it is, but it is not Armageddon, either. WE owe it to the OP to keep this in perspective and not go overboard. For example, how many posters have already told her to be honest? I think she gets the idea. How long do you beat a dead horse?


Very presumptuous to assert the lack of severity here.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Geez, people, ease up. She kissed a guy, she didn't kidnap the Lindbergh baby.


Interesting, who gave you the 2 likes for this post.

Clearly for many, many people, a kiss is enough to derail a marriage. And now who's putting words in other's mouths? Where did anyone type this was tantamount to a baby kidnapping?


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> Read my threads. There are quite a few posters that know my story.


I think his point is that due to your extreme defense of WSs, even that which is indefensible, leads us to believe that although you are a BS, you were never "just" a BS.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say with regards to treating WS who come here with civility, as long as they are commanding it.

But the way you go on about BS's throws up red flags that there is information we aren't hearing about your story. Its not what you have told us about your story, its what we suspect we are not being told.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> You simply won't learn to respect other posters that disagree with you.


Et tu, Brute


----------



## vellocet

cpacan said:


> Could you explain why you advice her to keep lying? Is it under the assumption that the relationship is over anyway?


I think what Deej is saying is that if she decides she doesn't want to spend the rest of her life with him, no need to tell (and I'd say that is if she makes that decision quick and ends it soon)

But if she does decide she wants him, she needs to tell him.


----------



## vellocet

Pluto2 said:


> Rookie, this is your judgment on the extent of her infidelity. You don't know how her H will respond. Just because a kiss is not a big deal to you doesn't mean any other spouse would agree with you.


Exactly. If the H goes off the deep end and can't handle the betrayal and doesn't see it as "just a kiss", then I suppose he'd be a petty ignorant idiot.


----------



## Rookie4

Great job, guys. You bashers have managed to run yet another WS off TAM. Soon you will have it all to yourselves ,then who will you bash? Trouble with a mob, is that they always need fresh victims.


----------



## EI

Healer said:


> Interesting, who gave you the 2 likes for this post.
> 
> Clearly for many, many people, a kiss is enough to derail a marriage. And now who's putting words in other's mouths? Where did anyone type this was tantamount to a baby kidnapping?



Gotta love those TAM "like" talliers." Those who weigh the value of a post according to who "likes" it. Occasionally, I find myself "liking" comments alongside others with whom I usually disagree. Some things are simply that obvious. 

I would hope that even a BS could differentiate the degree of "badness" between kidnapping a baby and committing adultery. While both are absolutely horrific, they are not even close to being in the same category.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Great job, guys. You bashers have managed to run yet another WS off TAM. Soon you will have it all to yourselves ,then who will you bash? Trouble with a mob, is that they always need fresh victims.


Hyperbolize much?


----------



## Healer

EI said:


> I would hope that *even a BS* could differentiate the degree of "badness" between kidnapping a baby and committing adultery. While both are absolutely horrific, they are not even close to being in the same category.


:scratchhead:

Where did this comparison come from? Did I miss someone posting that?


----------



## Healer

bandit.45 said:


> I think it would be rude to stone the OP to death. She's not the type I'm referring to.


This made me laugh. When observing people stoning someone to death" "How _rude_!"


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> Hyperbolize much?


Sometimes , yes, sometimes , no. Depends on the situation.


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> Where did this comparison come from? Did I miss someone posting that?


I made a flippant remark and some posters are outraged by it. Wound a little too tight.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Geez, people, ease up. She kissed a guy, she didn't kidnap the Lindbergh baby.





Healer said:


> *Interesting, who gave you the 2 likes for this post.
> *
> Clearly for many, many people, a kiss is enough to derail a marriage. And now who's putting words in other's mouths? Where did anyone type this was tantamount to a baby kidnapping?





EI said:


> Gotta love those TAM "like" talliers." Those who weigh the value of a post according to who "likes" it. Occasionally, I find myself "liking" comments alongside others with whom I usually disagree. Some things are simply that obvious.
> 
> I would hope that even a BS could differentiate the degree of "badness" between kidnapping a baby and committing adultery. While both are absolutely horrific, they are not even close to being in the same category.





Healer said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> Where did this comparison come from? Did I miss someone posting that?


It wasn't the comparison, you did actually qualify that. Sorry. It was the noting of who "liked" it that I found offensive. But, now, I'm thread jacking. So, never mind.


----------



## bandit.45

I'm not buying that it was just a kiss. 

Sorry, but a single kiss would not generate this much guilt and shame.


----------



## vellocet

EI said:


> It wasn't the comparison, you did actually qualify that. Sorry. It was the noting of who "liked" it that I found offensive.


Really? What was so offensive about it?


----------



## vellocet

bandit.45 said:


> I'm not buying that it was just a kiss.
> 
> Sorry, but a single kiss would not generate this much guilt and shame.


Also, and correct me if I'm wrong because I just might be, wasn't it described as a physical affair....only later was it reduced to "just a kiss"?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> I made a flippant remark and some posters are outraged by it. Wound a little too tight.


Exactly what I thought about my remark vis-a-vis stonings.


----------



## Q tip

Rookie4 said:


> Great job, guys. You bashers have managed to run yet another WS off TAM. Soon you will have it all to yourselves ,then who will you bash? Trouble with a mob, is that they always need fresh victims.


Mob or thundering herd?...

(with/apologies to Woody Herman)


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> Great job, guys. You bashers have managed to run yet another WS off TAM. Soon you will have it all to yourselves ,then who will you bash? Trouble with a mob, is that they always need fresh victims.


Seriously? I tried to be as gentle as possible but there are certain truths that just must be said. I honestly didn't think she faced a lot of bashing here. If she can't take a little criticism from anonymous internet posters how is she supposed to deal with her troubled marriage, especially if (when) her husband finds out about her adultery.


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> *Sigh* I miss stonings...





EI said:


> :slap:
> 
> I think a lot of both of you..... really disappointed in these types of comments.





bfree said:


> You realize I was joking right?



I've been on TAM for more than 2 years, B1 and I have reconciled, and I think I give back as good as I get around here, but I still find this kind of "joke" to be disheartening and unhelpful. And, I'm pretty sure it's not the first time that I've read this comment from you, bfree. There are several posters who I wouldn't be surprised to see making this kind of "joke," but it has been my observation that you are one of the posters who is held in high esteem by nearly everyone on TAM. Because of that, and perhaps unfairly, I think you are held to a higher degree of accountability. But, that's just my two cents..... FWIW.

What I did was wrong, terribly wrong. I hurt my husband, and I hurt my children. I will regret that for the rest of my life. Still, I do not believe that my transgression merits death by stoning. But, if so, I would say:

John 8:7 "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



EI said:


> I've been on TAM for more than 2 years, B1 and I have reconciled, and I think I give back as good as I get around here, but I still find this kind of "joke" to be disheartening and unhelpful. And, I'm pretty sure it's not the first time that I've read this comment from you, bfree. There are several posters who I wouldn't be surprised to see making this kind of "joke," but it has been my observation that you are one of the posters who is held in high esteem by nearly everyone on TAM. Because of that, and perhaps unfairly, I think you are held to a higher degree of accountability. But, that's just my two cents..... FWIW.
> 
> What I did was wrong, terribly wrong. I hurt my husband, and I hurt my children. I will regret that for the rest of my life. Still, I do not believe that my transgression merits death by stoning. But, if so, I would say:
> 
> John 8:7 "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."


You're right, you probably have read something similar from me at some point. Very few WS's accept responsibility for their actions. Very few hold themselves accountable for the damage they cause. And even fewer actually atone for their transgressions. What do we do to people who hurt others and do not accept the consequences of their actions? It used to be that society thrust those consequences upon them in order to teach them a lesson and to warn others that this type of behavior will not be tolerated. But society had degenerated into some egalitarian parody of itself allowing all sorts of atrocious behavior to go unpunished. And we have become worse for it. Do I think there should be stonings? No, of course not. But do I think unrepentant cheaters should be held accountable for the damage they cause. Damned right I do.


----------



## Rookie4

Q tip said:


> Mob or thundering herd?...
> 
> (with/apologies to Woody Herman)


Mob or pack of jackals. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.


----------



## Thundarr

vellocet said:


> Also, and correct me if I'm wrong because I just might be, wasn't it described as a physical affair....only later was it reduced to "just a kiss"?


Yes the first mention was PA and then it changed. Conveniently the poster didn't know all of the acronyms. It looked like bait/switch trolling in an attempt to anger the mob and then say 'now look what you've done'.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Seriously? I tried to be as gentle as possible but there are certain truths that just must be said. I honestly didn't think she faced a lot of bashing here. If she can't take a little criticism from anonymous internet posters how is she supposed to deal with her troubled marriage, especially if (when) her husband finds out about her adultery.


So, how many posts outlining her evil ways and browbeating are enough? Do you actually think that Natasha is so brain dead that she didn't understand ? I fully support somebody telling her to be honest, and hope she takes it to heart. But when twenty posters tell her the same thing , in the most insulting manner possible,without trying to understand her dilemmas or making allowances for a new poster. that is mob rule and abuse.


----------



## Rookie4

Thundarr said:


> Yes the first mention was PA and then it changed. Conveniently the poster didn't know all of the acronyms. It looked like bait/switch trolling in an attempt to anger the mob and then say 'now look what you've done'.


So you agree there is a mob? Bravo, at least one poster with some guts.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> So, how many posts outlining her evil ways and browbeating are enough? Do you actually think that Natasha is so brain dead that she didn't understand ? I fully support somebody telling her to be honest, and hope she takes it to heart. But when twenty posters tell her the same thing , in the most insulting manner possible,without trying to understand her dilemmas or making allowances for a new poster. that is mob rule and abuse.


rookie, were you ever a WS, or did you cheat on a girlfriend or something?


----------



## Rookie4

Natasha, I hope that you learned even a little something , here. I hope you understand the value of honesty to your marriage, and work on your entitlement issues with a competent professional counselor. Marriage is a long road, and is seldom smooth or straight. Potholes and obstacles are always there to cause you to wreck. I cannot imagine being able to go down that road successfully without honesty, love and loyalty.


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> So, how many posts outlining her evil ways and browbeating are enough? Do you actually think that Natasha is so brain dead that she didn't understand ? I fully support somebody telling her to be honest, and hope she takes it to heart. But when twenty posters tell her the same thing , in the most insulting manner possible,without trying to understand her dilemmas or making allowances for a new poster. that is mob rule and abuse.


Rookie I understand you are frustrated but you have to accept the fact that this is a public forum. If twenty posters see the OP's post and feel they can contribute-they have that right. You cannot and should not stop that or discourage it. I hope what the OP takes away is that she received consistent advice about her situation-she should disclose if she wants to continue her marriage.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> So, how many posts outlining her evil ways and browbeating are enough? Do you actually think that Natasha is so brain dead that she didn't understand ? I fully support somebody telling her to be honest, and hope she takes it to heart. But when twenty posters tell her the same thing , in the most insulting manner possible,without trying to understand her dilemmas or making allowances for a new poster. that is mob rule and abuse.


So its not the content of the posts but the amount? I didn't see where any of the posts encouraging her to be honest were insulting. I prefer to see it as each poster might duplicate some of the advice but each also adds a different viewpoint to the equation. Maybe you see it differently.


----------



## vellocet

bfree said:


> So its not the content of the posts but the amount? I didn't see where any of the posts encouraging her to be honest were insulting.


Neither did anyone else apparently. Nobody is taking the bait this thread was really designed for, so the grasping at straws begins.


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> rookie, were you ever a WS, or did you cheat on a girlfriend or something?


You simply cannot wrap your mind around the idea of fair play, can you? I defend WS's and their right to tell their story without bashing and fear. That, in no way, means that I agree with them. I just cannot abide a mob of people attacking one person. As a young Kentucky boy, I saw what mobs are really like.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> I divorced my wife 4 1/2 years ago. Do you even know what you are talking about?


Yep


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> So its not the content of the posts but the amount? I didn't see where any of the posts encouraging her to be honest were insulting. I prefer to see it as each poster might duplicate some of the advice but each also adds a different viewpoint to the equation. Maybe you see it differently.


But it is the same advice, and the same negative attacks. If it were different content, I would have less trouble with it. But it is like a bunch of Parrots squawking the same thing. It isn't meant to help, it is meant to make the WS feel worse, because no WS can ever suffer enough. Granted the suffering for the BS is far worse, but that does not mean that the WS doesn't suffer , as well. My wife was on Suicide watch for 2 months after Dday., nobody ever told me.


----------



## Wolf1974

Healer said:


> You really use that "putting words in my mouth" as your fallback, don't you? Nobody is doing that. You are being called out on the content which you post on this forum.
> 
> Where have I disrespected those that disagree with me? "You said it, so prove it." Well, you're at odds with basically everyone but waywards. That's very, very telling. And you actually put down betrayed spouses, simply because...they are betrayed spouses. Very puzzling. You seem to have a lot of anger and resentment for people who were cheated on. Why is that? Are you angry with yourself and are projecting? Talk to us man.





Rookie4 said:


> But it is the same advice, and the same negative attacks. If it were different content, I would have less trouble with it. But it is like a bunch of Parrots squawking the same thing. It isn't meant to help, it is meant to make the WS feel worse, because no WS can ever suffer enough. Granted the suffering for the BS is far worse, but that does not mean that the WS doesn't suffer , as well. My wife was on Suicide watch for 2 months after Dday., nobody ever told me.


Some ......... SOME WS suffer. Yours went to suicide watch. Mine went to live with another guy until he kicked that to the curb. She was happy as could be until the whole fantasy/fog whatever you want to call it came crashing down

Again your experiences are not universal. Not all WS suffer


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> You simply cannot wrap your mind around the idea of fair play, can you? I defend WS's and their right to tell their story without bashing and fear. That, in no way, means that I agree with them. I just cannot abide a mob of people attacking one person. As a young Kentucky boy, I saw what mobs are really like.


"Fair play". You mean like when a spouse goes behind their spouses back and has sex with another person? That kind of "fair play"? You certainly can dance around. "Fair play", "putting words in my mouth". You type a lot without actually saying anything.

Who am I bashing??

I see you totally dodged the actual question.


----------



## vellocet

Healer said:


> I see you totally dodged the actual question.


He answered it BY dodging it


----------



## Paladin

Healer said:


> Who am I bashing??


Anyone who seems to think or say anything you happen to disagree with, at least thats what it looks like sometimes. The sarcastic or patronizing one liners you posted in the last few pages come to mind.

When attacking rookie for his "attempts" to "minimize" what Natasha did, were you actually convinced that he thought affairs were no big deal, or was there some part of you that knew what he was actually trying to say? 

A few pages back you said that some people are just "shtty" and implied that they dont deserve any consideration. I am curious about how you decide who is a "shtty" person and who is not. Is there a number of offenses that a person must make to become "shtty" or maybe the severity of those offenses earn them that label?


----------



## vellocet

Paladin said:


> Anyone who seems to think or say anything you happen to disagree with, at least thats what it looks like sometimes. The sarcastic or patronizing one liners you posted in the last few pages come to mind.
> 
> When attacking rookie for his "attempts" to "minimize" what Natasha did, were you actually convinced that he thought affairs were no big deal, or was there some part of you that knew what he was actually trying to say?
> 
> A few pages back you said that some people are just "shtty" and implied that they dont deserve any consideration. *I am curious about how you decide who is a "shtty" person and who is not*. Is there a number of offenses that a person must make to become "shtty" or maybe the severity of those offenses earn them that label?


The bashing started in the very first post.

As far as the bolded part, how does one decide who is a "hater" and "abuser"? Seems that applies to "_anyone who seems to think or say anything [the OP] happens to disagree with_"

............at least thats what it looks like sometimes.


----------



## Wolf1974

Paladin said:


> Anyone who seems to think or say anything you happen to disagree with, at least thats what it looks like sometimes. The sarcastic or patronizing one liners you posted in the last few pages come to mind.
> 
> When attacking rookie for his "attempts" to "minimize" what Natasha did, were you actually convinced that he thought affairs were no big deal, or was there some part of you that knew what he was actually trying to say?
> 
> A few pages back you said that some people are just "shtty" and implied that they dont deserve any consideration. I am curious about how you decide who is a "shtty" person and who is not. Is there a number of offenses that a person must make to become "shtty" or maybe the severity of those offenses earn them that label?


I wouldn't use Rookie as a pillar of polite posting. He has threatened on more than one occasion to have posters banned who simply disagreed with him here.

As for your last paragraph yes some people can become lifetime "****ty" based on one act.

I think murders are
I think rapists are
I think child molesters are
And I do also think my x wife is. 

Are they all the exact same level...no. Personal context comes into play as well. My x mother in law certainly doesn't think her daughter is ****ty. But then again some people write, fall in love with, and marry people on death row guilty of murder. So guess it's a bit individualized


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> It isn't meant to help, it is meant to make the WS feel worse, because no WS can ever suffer enough.


Simply not true. Many posters were offering suggestions about what we think she should do to save her marriage. Posters were not cruel, they were honest.

You are the one assigning blame and motives


----------



## vellocet

Pluto2 said:


> Simply not true. Many posters were offering suggestions about what we think she should do to save her marriage. Posters were not cruel, they were honest.
> 
> You are the one assigning blame and motives


Like I said, grasping at straws. Wishful thinking.

The real intention of this thread was to invite bashing. And when it really didn't happen, he had to do what you just said.


----------



## Healer

Paladin said:


> Anyone who seems to think or say anything you happen to disagree with, at least thats what it looks like sometimes. The sarcastic or patronizing one liners you posted in the last few pages come to mind.


I haven't "bashed" anyone. I never even commented on Natasha specifically. All I said was that a kiss outside the marriage can be a deal breaker for many people. Sarcastic one liners are "bashing"? Please. I have taken issue with one person in this thread - and that's rookie, and I'm clearly not the only one put off by his insinuations and assertions. 



Paladin said:


> When attacking rookie for his "attempts" to "minimize" what Natasha did, were you actually convinced that he thought affairs were no big deal, or was there some part of you that knew what he was actually trying to say?


"Attacking", "bashing"...oh come on now. Let's take the kid gloves off. I called him on exactly what he typed. He minimized the kiss - it's right there for everyone to read. All of me knew exactly what he was trying to say - it's right there. Read it.



Paladin said:


> A few pages back you said that some people are just "shtty" and implied that they dont deserve any consideration. I am curious about how you decide who is a "shtty" person and who is not. Is there a number of offenses that a person must make to become "shtty" or maybe the severity of those offenses earn them that label?


I think a person who cheats on their spouse is a sh*tty person. And no, I didn't imply anybody doesn't deserve consideration. "Don't put words in my mouth".


----------



## Paladin

Wolf1974 said:


> I wouldn't use Rookie as a pillar of polite posting. He has threatened on more than one occasion to have posters banned who simply disagreed with him here.


I did not bring up politeness, and the last time I checked Rookie was not a moderator and could not actually ban anyone.



Wolf1974 said:


> As for your last paragraph yes some people can become lifetime "****ty" based on one act.
> 
> I think murders are
> I think rapists are
> I think child molesters are
> And I do also think my x wife is.
> 
> Are they all the exact same level...no. Personal context comes into play as well. My x mother in law certainly doesn't think her daughter is ****ty. But then again some people write, fall in love with, and marry people on death row guilty of murder. So guess it's a bit individualized


I understand your viewpoints more clearly than Healers, thats why I was posing the question to him. The main reason for asking was to find out how he determines who a "shtty" person is, and what that person has to do to become "shtty." 

You mentioned context as being a consideration, and that is vitally important, and in part why I bothered to post anything in relation to Healers exchange with Rookie in the first place. Rookie was attempting to address Natasha's posts with the context of her actions in mind, and got accused of.... wait for it.. minimizing affairs. I think we can agree that Rookie understands the impact of infidelity on people, and does not in fact condone or minimize that impact.


----------



## Healer

Paladin said:


> I did not bring up politeness, and the last time I checked Rookie was not a moderator and could not actually ban anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand your viewpoints more clearly than Healers, thats why I was posing the question to him. The main reason for asking was to find out how he determines who a "shtty" person is, and what that person has to do to become "shtty."
> 
> You mentioned context as being a consideration, and that is vitally important, and in part why I bothered to post anything in relation to Healers exchange with Rookie in the first place. Rookie was attempting to address Natasha's posts with the context of her actions in mind, and got accused of.... wait for it.. minimizing affairs. I think we can agree that Rookie understands the impact of infidelity on people, and does not in fact condone or minimize that impact.


I think you understand my viewpoint...you just don't like it.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> But it is the same advice, and the same negative attacks. If it were different content, I would have less trouble with it. But it is like a bunch of Parrots squawking the same thing. It isn't meant to help, it is meant to make the WS feel worse, because no WS can ever suffer enough. Granted the suffering for the BS is far worse, but that does not mean that the WS doesn't suffer , as well. My wife was on Suicide watch for 2 months after Dday., nobody ever told me.


See the way I see it the message might be negative but only because the action we are addressing was negative. There just isn't any positive way to talk about adultery is there? And I truly didn't see any attacks. Let's look at a few actual posts.

vellocet wrote:
_Do you want to reconcile with him? If so, do you think its fair to have these talks with him and let him think that he is the only one with a problem in the marriage?
Do you think holding this secret is fair to him, especially if he thinks he is the one that needs to do the heavy lifting in the marriage?
If you don't tell him, then at least don't let him think the problems are all him. YOU need a lot of work to do on yourself as well.
Not sure if I'd recommend marriage counseling if you aren't going to be honest._

Nothing negative there as far as I can see and in fact vellocet makes a good point that if she doesn't tell her husband she should go to great lengths to make sure he doesn't get blamed for something he doesn't even know about.

bfree wrote:
_Well my standard answer is that without total honesty there cannot be a healthy marriage. That elephant in the room is always going to skew both your perspectives. At some point he is going to notice (if he hasn't already) that something is off. You're going to assure him that everything is fine but it will eat away at both of you. Your guilt and his "gut" will drive a wedge into your relationship until neither if you will recognize the other. And when it does come out, and it always does, it is going to hurt 10x as much because not only will he see you as an adulterer but he will wonder how easily you deceived him for so long. You will be a stranger to him._

Here I am advising her to be honest because the non-verbal communication often imparted when one is deceitful can confuse the other party. Nothing negative there I don't believe.

Later Forest probes as to whether she is still badmouthing her husband. This is a very relevant and important point. italianjob then tries to ascertain the extent of the PA and if she is still in contact with her AP. Vellocet again comments that he believes she is remorseful but advises that he doesn't feel a successful reconciliation can be accomplished without honesty. italianjob then warns her that if her husband finds out from someone else it will not go over well. Mr. Blunt encourages her to improve herself and pray (I love that guy.) Forest again comments on "we just kissed" explaining that while he believes her it is seen in most cases as a lie. Bandit explains that her use of the word mistake is not advisable as it minimizes her actions to herself and others. Warlock picks up on the fact that she made her husband feel inadequate and then cheated on him implying that she had a lot of damage control to do. He also mentions that maybe her husband does indeed sense something is wrong. larry gray mentions that her husband probably won't believe that they only kissed.

I can go on but that is the essence of the first 5 pages of responses after Natasha's original post. I don't see any bashing nor to I see posters hammering her. Yes there was some "colorful" language but that is just the way it is when you deal with random people on the internet. If the poster ran off it is my guess that she simply didn't like the advice she was receiving. Specifically advice to be honest and tell her husband. The same advice you gave her btw rookie.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> But it is the same advice, and the same negative attacks. If it were different content, I would have less trouble with it. But it is like a bunch of Parrots squawking the same thing. It isn't meant to help, it is meant to make the WS feel worse, because no WS can ever suffer enough. Granted the suffering for the BS is far worse, but that does not mean that the WS doesn't suffer , as well. My wife was on Suicide watch for 2 months after Dday., nobody ever told me.


And I am truly sorry that your ex wife was suicidal after D-day. I've often said that BS's do not have any idea the extent of the guilt that remorseful WS's suffer due to their destructive choice to cheat. But most WS's don't have any clue as to the damage they caused due to their infidelity. This mutual ignorance of empathy is just one more hurdle that can block a successful reconciliation. I don't post to make any WS feel worse. I don't believe that the majority of other posters do either. But just like you can't nice your WS back to the marriage I don't believe you can successfully nice your way through a true reconciliation. There have to be lots of tears, there has to be lots of guilt and many raw nerves will undoubtedly be exposed. Reconciliation is not for the faint of heart. Some people just don't have the stomach for it.


----------



## bandit.45

This thread has jumped the shark so I'm bailing for good. 

Before I do I want to say that I think my comment about the stoning was taken out of context. I wasn't referencing Natasha. I was referencing the lackadaisical attitude that modern society has about adultery in general. It used to be a crime against society. Now it's a fun pastime. 

Some of you need to seriously chill out.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> He answered it BY dodging it


Not at all. I left the office. No, I have never cheated on anyone.


----------



## Rookie4

.......Ever.........


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> "Fair play". You mean like when a spouse goes behind their spouses back and has sex with another person? That kind of "fair play"? You certainly can dance around. "Fair play", "putting words in my mouth". You type a lot without actually saying anything.
> 
> Who am I bashing??
> 
> I see you totally dodged the actual question.


I guess I won't be talking to you any more. You simply don't get it, and there is no sense in continuing to try . I'll talk to posters who have open minds.


----------



## Thundarr

Rookie4 said:


> I would like to personally invite any wayward spouses, who might be lurking here on TAM, to post your stories and see if we can help you. There are a number of posters who will do their best to answer your questions and give you the best advice they have. Of course , there are also those who will attempt to berate and abuse you, but I feel that there are enough compassionate posters to , in part, shield you from the haters and abusers. TAM is a very worthwhile website, and can be a positive force in marriage reconciliation.


I do like the thread title and also the opening comment Rookie4. It was a good idea IMO.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> The bashing started in the very first post.
> 
> As far as the bolded part, how does one decide who is a "hater" and "abuser"? Seems that applies to "_anyone who seems to think or say anything [the OP] happens to disagree with_"
> 
> ............at least thats what it looks like sometimes.


How about giving my way a try? Try NOT to bash WS's, try giving them an even break, try NOT ganging up on them, and see how it goes. If masses WS'S come here and flaunt their affairs , then I'm wrong and you're right. If, both BS's and WS's actually learn something from each other , in order to help each other to heal from affairs. Then you have the guts to admit I am right.


----------



## Rookie4

Thundarr said:


> I do like the thread title and also the opening comment Rookie4. It was a good idea IMO.


Thanks. I am only trying to help BOTH parties, to understand each other better. but some are so righteous that any help at all for a WS is a sin. And some are just filled with hate. I pity them .


----------



## pidge70

It's funny how certain posters went from one end of the spectrum concerning their feelings for WS, to the complete opposite end of the spectrum.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> I wouldn't use Rookie as a pillar of polite posting. He has threatened on more than one occasion to have posters banned who simply disagreed with him here.
> 
> As for your last paragraph yes some people can become lifetime "****ty" based on one act.
> 
> I think murders are
> I think rapists are
> I think child molesters are
> And I do also think my x wife is.
> 
> Are they all the exact same level...no. Personal context comes into play as well. My x mother in law certainly doesn't think her daughter is ****ty. But then again some people write, fall in love with, and marry people on death row guilty of murder. So guess it's a bit individualized


Thi is a false statment. I threatened to report you for rude, offensive and unhelpful remarks, NOT for disagreeing with me. I don't care if you agree with me or not.


----------



## Rookie4

pidge70 said:


> It's funny how certain posters went from one end of the spectrum concerning their feelings for WS, to the complete opposite end of the spectrum.


Is this directed at me? Pidge? If so, I will answer, if not, pardon me for intruding.


----------



## Rookie4

I would like to issue a challenge. I challenge all BS's to treat our WS posters with fairness, understanding and courtesy. I challenge all WS posters to do the same, PLUS, to show concern for the suffering that all BS's have had to endure. And BOTH side to look into their own hearts and see how each one can improve themselves so that nobody will have to go through this again.


----------



## Thundarr

Rookie4 said:


> How about giving my way a try? Try NOT to bash WS's, try giving them an even break, try NOT ganging up on them, and see how it goes. If masses WS'S come here and flaunt their affairs , then I'm wrong and you're right. If, both BS's and WS's actually learn something from each other , in order to help each other to heal from affairs. Then you have the guts to admit I am right.


I think you're stuck on a concept. You've decided that BSs are angry people with their heads in the sand who just want to say nasty things. But you echoed what other posters said to Natasha. Then you're angry for everyone running her off when most posters were really respectfully telling her that she needed to be honest. I'm not following why you can say this to her and it's okay but when bfree says it then it's rude?


----------



## Thundarr

pidge70 said:


> It's funny how certain posters went from one end of the spectrum concerning their feelings for WS, to the complete opposite end of the spectrum.


Care to elaborate Pidge? This thread in particular has become one where everyone seems to have picked sides of WS sympathizor or BS sympathizor and any criticism in either direction is misinterpreted. Unfortunately that leaves a lot of grey area in between.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Wolf*
> Some......... SOME WS suffer. Yours went to suicide watch. Mine went to live with another guy until he kicked that to the curb. She was happy as could be until the whole fantasy/fog whatever you want to call it came crashing down
> 
> Again your experiences are not universal. Not all WS suffer



Wolf, I think that you have pointed out a very revealing point. That point is that some respond based on their own personal experience and emotional condition. Rookie’s wife was sincerely remorseful but your wife seemed to not have as much conscience and remorse.

In the case of Natasha, her posts seem to me to indicate that she had real guilt and wanted to make things right for her husband and children. If my assumption about Natasha is correct then naturally I am going to view some posts that constantly focus on the bad of her situation with the OM as unhelpful and in some cases cruel. I am not directing this to Wolf but using his post to say that I think a few here are allowing their emotions and personal experience with their WS to overlook some of Natasha’s words. 
It appears to me by her words indicate that she is really looking for help to make thongs better for her and her family.

*Maybe Natasha is like what Wolf described his wife is like but I did not find that in Natasha’s posts did any of you?* If you did then post those quotes so that I a not fooled. What I found in her posts were more like Rookie’s wife in that she is sincerely remorseful and scarred.

The pain of being a BS is devastating and some of the worst pain in life but projecting your pain on other WSs with disregard for their posted words seems to be unfair.

It is very easy for me and probably every BS here to be very disgusted with WS’s that have very little in the way of remorse and conscience but that is not what I see with Natasha. I get a lot of satisfaction of seeing a WS like EI and Mrs. JohnAdams putting their lives and the lives of their family back together. I was glad that I did not react to them by the way my emotions were in the first year of my WS betrayal.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Thi is a false statment. I threatened to report you for rude, offensive and unhelpful remarks, NOT for disagreeing with me. I don't care if you agree with me or not.


When did I make rude remarks? And the only thing unhelpful was because you disagreed with it. I was only following the conversation. Still am


----------



## jim123

Wolf1974 said:


> He isn't going to agree
> 
> He really isn't in a position to be able to agree. Because if he admitted it is possible then he would have to take a hard look at his marriage and his position. Some aren't capable of that


We all have this issue in some way. Rookie does mean well and I do support his defense of the WW's. However, we need to respect everyone and the situation they are in.

We can really help each other.


----------



## Wolf1974

Mr Blunt said:


> *Wolf, I think that you have pointed out a very revealing point. That point is that some respond based on their own personal experience and emotional condition. Rookie’s wife was sincerely remorseful but your wife seemed to not have as much conscience and remorse.
> *
> In the case of Natasha, her posts seem to me to indicate that she had real guilt and wanted to make things right for her husband and children. If my assumption about Natasha is correct then naturally I am going to view some posts that constantly focus on the bad of her situation with the OM as unhelpful and in some cases cruel. I am not directing this to Wolf but using his post to say that I think a few here are allowing their emotions and personal experience with their WS to overlook some of Natasha’s words.
> It appears to me by her words indicate that she is really looking for help to make thongs better for her and her family.
> 
> *Maybe Natasha is like what Wolf described his wife is like but I did not find that in Natasha’s posts did any of you?* If you did then post those quotes so that I a not fooled. What I found in her posts were more like Rookie’s wife in that she is sincerely remorseful and scarred.
> 
> The pain of being a BS is devastating and some of the worst pain in life but projecting your pain on other WSs with disregard for their posted words seems to be unfair.
> 
> It is very easy for me and probably every BS here to be very disgusted with WS’s that have very little in the way of remorse and conscience but that is not what I see with Natasha. I get a lot of satisfaction of seeing a WS like EI and Mrs. JohnAdams putting their lives and the lives of their family back together. I was glad that I did not react to them by the way my emotions were in the first year of my WS betrayal.


Well this is true and I have been saying it since like page three. Only difference is I don't think that the way it went down in my marriage is the way it goes down in every marriage across the planet. I am wise enough to know that different circumstances happen to different people. Something a few here can learn and open up their mind to.

I was never speaking of Natasha. No idea about her really and I have respect for waywards who come clean and fix their marriage. While it's not something I would personally do I recognize that it must take a lot of hard work and pain to reconcile a marriage that is broken either before or because of an affair.


----------



## Wolf1974

jim123 said:


> We all have this issue in some way. Rookie does mean well and I do support his defense of the WW's. However, we need to respect everyone and the situation they are in.
> 
> We can really help each other.


That's fine with me and I give respect when it's given. While I don't agree with everything everyone posts I think everyone has a right to post on a public forum. But the key word is EVERYONE not just those we agree with


----------



## Rookie4

Thundarr said:


> I think you're stuck on a concept. You've decided that BSs are angry people with their heads in the sand who just want to say nasty things. But you echoed what other posters said to Natasha. Then you're angry for everyone running her off when most posters were really respectfully telling her that she needed to be honest. I'm not following why you can say this to her and it's okay but when bfree says it then it's rude?


Surely you can see the difference between suggesting and bashing? Some posters went on and on about how her marriage was going to hell and it was all her fault and she was a dishonest person , etc, etc, etc. And this keeps up for post after post. This isn't help, it's persecution. Even after she admitted it was all her fault, they still keep after her. When is enough, enough? Some WS's have to face 20 or 30
posts of this every time the come on line. It is relentless. Until the WS is so tired of the abuse that they leave. How many times have we seen this happen? When is it going to stop?


----------



## Deejo

I advised Natasha not to disclose because I'm taking her at her word.

She indicated that she grew distant from her husband because he is, by his own account according to her, not much interested in meeting either hers, or their children's needs.

Were she to tell him, I'm betting he would double down and freeze her out completely ... thus further accomplishing the very thing that created the circumstances in the first place. 

I personally don't think they are going to make it over the long term. Does that make her ripe for a physical affair if she stays? 
Maybe.

For right now she felt shame and wants to focus on her marriage. Based upon the length and extent of her involvement, my call is to keep it to herself.

She didn't understand the TAM acronym lexicon and took PA to mean physical contact, in her case a kiss, and was of course pilloried for it.

It was actually a wonderful little contrast of everything that has gone on in this thread.

Now that she's no longer posting, several others have insinuated that she was lying about that too ...

And thus why many if not most remorseful waywards will remain lurkers.

Unless of course we think she was also lying about being remorseful.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Rookie*
> To lurking Waywards
> ________________________________________
> I would like to personally invite any wayward spouses, who might be lurking here on TAM, to post your stories and see if we can help you.



Rookie, your attempt to get a lot of Waywards to post their stories with the possibility of us TAMERS helping has not produced a high percentage of results. In fact only around 5% of the 2400+ posts have been from Waywords and about 90% from responders not addressing the waywards.

One thing is for sure and that is that there is a LOT of interest in this thread about helping waywards. *Why would there be 90% of the responses that did not address the waywards?*

Thanks for trying Rookie!


----------



## Rookie4

Blunt, this isn't easy for me, you know. I'm an engineer, not a writer and I have to face a lot of criticism and cr*p from posters who think that I'm somehow sympathizing with the WS against the B's. When nothing could be further from the truth. Some WS's have attitudes that are repugnant to me, and even I want to get on their case, but that isn't my call to make.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Deejo said:


> I advised Natasha not to disclose because I'm taking her at her word.
> 
> She indicated that she grew distant from her husband because he is, by his own account according to her, not much interested in meeting either hers, or their children's needs.
> 
> Were she to tell him, I'm betting he would double down and freeze her out completely ... thus further accomplishing the very thing that created the circumstances in the first place.
> 
> I personally don't think they are going to make it over the long term. Does that make her ripe for a physical affair if she stays?
> Maybe.
> 
> For right now she felt shame and wants to focus on her marriage. Based upon the length and extent of her involvement, my call is to keep it to herself.
> 
> She didn't understand the TAM acronym lexicon and took PA to mean physical contact, in her case a kiss, and was of course pilloried for it.
> 
> It was actually a wonderful little contrast of everything that has gone on in this thread.
> 
> Now that she's no longer posting, several others have insinuated that she was lying about that too ...
> 
> And thus why many if not most remorseful waywards will remain lurkers.
> 
> Unless of course we think she was also lying about being remorseful.


Or....

She could be honest with her husband and they could both use this crisis as a catalyst for change in themselves and their marriage. If, as you and I believe, that her marriage is probably doomed as it it's currently constituted and she is ripe for a more involved physical affair in the future, wouldn't it be better to bring everything out in the open now and resolve the marriage one way or another before a more painful event takes place? And I'm not so sure her husband would end the marriage so quickly. I think that is her fear and avoidance of accountability rearing its ugly head.

That brings me to another point. I don't believe WS's are getting driven away from TAM like so many here do. I believe that if someone is serious about improving their current situation you couldn't drive them away if you tried. Other WS's have come here and faced some bitter truths and not run away. Some were successful in fixing their situation (EI) some were less so (tears.) I think it's only when the WS does not hear what they want to hear that they leave.


----------



## Wolf1974

bfree said:


> Or....
> 
> She could be honest with her husband and they could both use this crisis as a catalyst for change in themselves and their marriage. If, as you and I believe, that her marriage is probably doomed as it it's currently constituted and she is ripe for a more involved physical affair in the future, wouldn't it be better to bring everything out in the open now and resolve the marriage one way or another before a more painful event takes place? And I'm not so sure her husband would end the marriage so quickly. I think that is her fear and avoidance of accountability rearing its ugly head.
> 
> *That brings me to another point. I don't believe WS's are getting driven away from TAM like so many here do. I believe that if someone is serious about improving their current situation you couldn't drive them away if you tried. Other WS's have come here and faced some bitter truths and not run away. Some were successful in fixing their situation (EI) some were less so (tears.) I think it's only when the WS does not hear what they want to hear that they leave.*


*
*

I agree. I have been on this ride since about the beginning and haven't seen waywards shouted down as some seem to see it. But yes a demand for accountability. But really if you are to assume that they want help, as the thread was intended I've been told, then they have to have accountability. Can't move forward without recognizing what they have done first and foremost. Guess I'm not sure where these threads are where WS are getting run out of town in a matter of speaking. Not saying they don't exist but I haven't seen it that way.

I have always seen cheating much like physical abuse in a marriage. Until you recognize it's wrong, you need help and stop, then nothing will change. Only when someone comes on and says well she pushed me and pushed me so I hit her cause she had it coming mentality is called out. Same with wayward: when you come on and say it's not My fault and Im pushed to cheat and it's really all their fault then yes they are getting called out. A parallel.

So maybe the approach varies but I would like to think most of us recognize that lying and cheating is never going to improve a marriage. Zanne and some others aside of course. Being honest, communication and working hard may if the affair isn't 100% deal breaker.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Or....
> 
> She could be honest with her husband and they could both use this crisis as a catalyst for change in themselves and their marriage. If, as you and I believe, that her marriage is probably doomed as it it's currently constituted and she is ripe for a more involved physical affair in the future, wouldn't it be better to bring everything out in the open now and resolve the marriage one way or another before a more painful event takes place? And I'm not so sure her husband would end the marriage so quickly. I think that is her fear and avoidance of accountability rearing its ugly head.
> 
> That brings me to another point. I don't believe WS's are getting driven away from TAM like so many here do. I believe that if someone is serious about improving their current situation you couldn't drive them away if you tried. Other WS's have come here and faced some bitter truths and not run away. Some were successful in fixing their situation (EI) some were less so (tears.) I think it's only when the WS does not hear what they want to hear that they leave.


 Why don't we ask the WS's who have stayed if they have always been treated fairly? I know from talking to her that EI has many times thought about leaving, and so has Mrs. Mathias and others. It is more a tribute to their character that they did not. This thread is only a month old and already two WS's have said that the don't want to be bashed anymore and have left.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> How about giving my way a try? Try NOT to bash WS's, try giving them an even break, try NOT ganging up on them, and see how it goes.


I have. And sorry, for those that just want to put the blame on their BS and gaslight them, I'm not going to blow sunshine up their arse. You want to defend that type of behavior, be my guest.




> If masses WS'S come here and flaunt their affairs , then I'm wrong and you're right.


Its not about flaunting, its about gaslighting their spouses.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> Thi is a false statment. I threatened to report you for rude, offensive and unhelpful remarks, NOT for disagreeing with me. I don't care if you agree with me or not.


He made no rude or offensive remarks. And as far as rude and unhelpful, you have engaged in that type of posting yourself.

There's a word for someone that doesn't practice what they preach.


----------



## vellocet

Wolf1974 said:


> When did I make rude remarks?


You didn't. And if he did report you, apparently the mods are in agreement with you.


----------



## vellocet

Deejo said:


> I advised Natasha not to disclose because I'm taking her at her word.
> 
> She indicated that she grew distant from her husband because he is, by his own account according to her, not much interested in meeting either hers, or their children's needs.
> 
> Were she to tell him, I'm betting he would double down and freeze her out completely ... thus further accomplishing the very thing that created the circumstances in the first place.


If you are suggesting she withhold the truth because she probably won't be staying with him much longer, I could agree with that.

But if she wants to work on things, I hope you aren't suggesting she lie to him by omission? Am I understanding you correctly?


----------



## Nostromo

Deejo said:


> I advised Natasha not to disclose because I'm taking her at her word.
> 
> I personally don't think they are going to make it over the long term. Does that make her ripe for a physical affair if she stays?
> Maybe.
> 
> For right now she felt shame and wants to focus on her marriage. Based upon the length and extent of her involvement, my call is to keep it to herself.


I can't respond to this the way I'd like to without getting banned, so I'll just say UGH. You and everybody who agreed with you just gave this woman the green-light to lie to her husband about something extremely important, that he absolutely has a right to know about and then to top it all off you even acknowledged that your advice is likely to lead to a full blown PA at some point if she actually takes it.

I'm all for treating WS's with the same respect that every other poster is treated with, no more and no less (not with kid gloves) but if people on here are going to advise them to lie to their families and continue down the same exact road that brought them to this site in the first place than maybe it's better that they just don't come here at all.


----------



## vellocet

I don't think Deejo is suggesting she lie if she is desiring to keep the marriage. I would completely disagree with that.

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that she need not come clean if she is going to leave him.


----------



## Nostromo

Rookie4 said:


> Why don't we ask the WS's who have stayed if they have always been treated fairly? I know from talking to her that EI has many times thought about leaving, and so has Mrs. Mathias and others.


Uh, weren't you the one that was always getting into a heated argument with Mrs. Mathias on a regular basis? I don't know how you can feel so comfortable chastising people for behavior that you yourself only recently stopped.:scratchhead:


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> Why don't we ask the WS's who have stayed if they have always been treated fairly? I know from talking to her that EI has many times thought about leaving, and so has Mrs. Mathias and others. It is more a tribute to their character that they did not. This thread is only a month old and already two WS's have said that the don't want to be bashed anymore and have left.


Fairly? Probably not. But who said life was fair? Was it fair for them to cheat? Was it fair to their wives/husbands? Was it fair to the OMW/OWH? Was it fair for (some of) them to break up their families? Was it fair to their children? In some cases the marriage pre affair was just awful. Was it fair that those BS's helped create such dysfunctional relationships? Is it fair that my tax dollars go to help support the children of broken homes, many of those homes broken due to infidelity? Fair? Hell no. Nothing is fair when it comes to this stuff. Why should TAM be any different?

As for WS's like EI, yes it's a testament to their characters that they didn't leave. It is that same strength of character that helps them in their reconciliations. Maybe the ones that do leave just don't have the intestinal fortitude for reconciliation or TAM.


----------



## vellocet

bfree said:


> Fairly? Probably not. But who said life was fair? Was it fair for them to cheat? Was it fair to their wives/husbands? Was it fair to the OMW/OWH? Was it fair for (some of) them to break up their families? Was it fair to their children?


All of that is irrelevant.


----------



## Deejo

vellocet said:


> If you are suggesting she withhold the truth because she probably won't be staying with him much longer, I could agree with that.
> 
> But if she wants to work on things, I hope you aren't suggesting she lie to him by omission? Am I understanding you correctly?


I believe if she wants to end her marriage, she should tell him.

I believe if she tells him, there won't be any 'work' to do.

I believe she has no intention of telling him. So I gave her what she needed to think about.


----------



## vellocet

Deejo said:


> I believe if she wants to end her marriage, she should tell him.
> 
> I believe if she tells him, there won't be any 'work' to do.



Then this I can't get behind. If she is ready to leave, even though he deserves the truth, I can go along with her not telling if it means they will be free of each other anyway.

But if she decides to stay, then not telling him is lying to him and it will end up with her having him thinking he is the only problem here. So he'll do the heavy lifting not knowing she betrayed him. Not only that, lets say they reconcile, and he finds out later. Talk about a real shyte sandwich she will have fed him.

And if she thinks that he will end it if she does tell him, that's all the more reason TO tell him. Because she'd be lying to him for her own end and not giving him and informed choice in the matter. I don't believe she should rob him of the truth or choice.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> I have. And sorry, for those that just want to put the blame on their BS and gaslight them, I'm not going to blow sunshine up their arse. You want to defend that type of behavior, be my guest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its not about flaunting, its about gaslighting their spouses.


Sorry , but there are no conditions to courtesy. You are either a polite person or you are not. I'm a polite person, most of the time, but even I have my moments, and I'm man enough to admit it. How about you?


----------



## Rookie4

Nostromo said:


> Uh, weren't you the one that was always getting into a heated argument with Mrs. Mathias on a regular basis? I don't know how you can feel so comfortable chastising people for behavior that you yourself only recently stopped.:scratchhead:


I have no problem with heated debates. But that isn't bashing, and it isn't ganging up on a poster, is it? I've had heated arguments with lots of WS's, even those that I like. So what?


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Fairly? Probably not. But who said life was fair? Was it fair for them to cheat? Was it fair to their wives/husbands? Was it fair to the OMW/OWH? Was it fair for (some of) them to break up their families? Was it fair to their children? In some cases the marriage pre affair was just awful. Was it fair that those BS's helped create such dysfunctional relationships? Is it fair that my tax dollars go to help support the children of broken homes, many of those homes broken due to infidelity? Fair? Hell no. Nothing is fair when it comes to this stuff. Why should TAM be any different?
> 
> As for WS's like EI, yes it's a testament to their characters that they didn't leave. It is that same strength of character that helps them in their reconciliations. Maybe the ones that do leave just don't have the intestinal fortitude for reconciliation or TAM.


I'm simply talking about fair play on TAM, not the whole world of adultery. A little perspective , please.


----------



## Deejo

vellocet said:


> Then this I can't get behind. If she is ready to leave, even though he deserves the truth, I can go along with her not telling if it means they will be free of each other anyway.
> 
> But if she decides to stay, then not telling him is lying to him and it will end up with her having him thinking he is the only problem here. So he'll do the heavy lifting not knowing she betrayed him. Not only that, lets say they reconcile, and he finds out later. Talk about a real shyte sandwich she will have fed him.
> 
> And if she thinks that he will end it if she does tell him, that's all the more reason TO tell him. Because she'd be lying to him for her own end and not giving him and informed choice in the matter. I don't believe she should rob him of the truth or choice.


That's cool too.

Maybe she'll be back one day and let us know.


----------



## Nostromo

I don't believe that anybody posting on this thread thinks that we should be allowed to come to this site and just write w**re in bold red caps as a response to a WS asking for advice or explaining their situation to us. However from what I've seen most of us don't believe in coddling people either. Unless I missed something that was deleted or I just completely skipped over it on accident, I didn't see where the WS who came here the other day was attacked or driven off of here.:scratchhead:

In fact when writing my response to her I went out of my way to attempt to get her to see how keeping this from her husband would end up causing HER unnecessary pain and I was summarily dismissed for my effort. The fact is there are some people who come here who will simply not be happy unless we all give them a pat on the head and ever so gently explain to them how this is really all their spouses fault and how they're not to blame at all. I don't know if she was one of those people or not, but those people absolutely exist and most of them wind up on LS.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> Then this I can't get behind. If she is ready to leave, even though he deserves the truth, I can go along with her not telling if it means they will be free of each other anyway.
> 
> But if she decides to stay, then not telling him is lying to him and it will end up with her having him thinking he is the only problem here. So he'll do the heavy lifting not knowing she betrayed him. Not only that, lets say they reconcile, and he finds out later. Talk about a real shyte sandwich she will have fed him.
> 
> And if she thinks that he will end it if she does tell him, that's all the more reason TO tell him. Because she'd be lying to him for her own end and not giving him and informed choice in the matter. I don't believe she should rob him of the truth or choice.


I agree with Deejo, but would add that we should view Natasha's posts as works in progress. Who knows what she might have done if she had been helped instead of bashed. She came here , feeling guilty, afraid and confused, and was immediately greeted by multiple posters telling her how bad she was. 
So now she has left, nobody has learned anything, the persecution continues and we are one poster fewer. I don't see that as a positive.


----------



## Rookie4

Deejo said:


> That's cool too.
> 
> Maybe she'll be back one day and let us know.


Possibly, but not probably.


----------



## Deejo

Nostromo said:


> I can't respond to this the way I'd like to without getting banned, so I'll just say UGH. You and everybody who agreed with you just gave this woman the green-light to lie to her husband about something extremely important, that he absolutely has a right to know about and then to top it all off you even acknowledged that your advice is likely to lead to a full blown PA at some point if she actually takes it.
> 
> I'm all for treating WS's with the same respect that every other poster is treated with, no more and no less (not with kid gloves) but if people on here are going to advise them to lie to their families and continue down the same exact road that brought them to this site in the first place than maybe it's better that they just don't come here at all.


If you think I treat waywards with kid gloves based on the post you quoted, you would be mistaken. But I'm fine with that, and glad you chose not to post anything that would get you banned. 

Cuz, ya'know ... :banned2:


----------



## Rookie4

Nostromo said:


> I don't believe that anybody posting on this thread thinks that we should be allowed to come to this site and just write w**re in bold red caps as a response to a WS asking for advice or explaining their situation to us. However from what I've seen most of us don't believe in coddling people either. Unless I missed something that was deleted or I just completely skipped over it on accident, I didn't see where the WS who came here the other day was attacked or driven off of here.:scratchhead:
> 
> In fact when writing my response to her I went out of my way to attempt to get her to see how keeping this from her husband would end up causing HER unnecessary pain and I was summarily dismissed for my effort. The fact is there are some people who come here who will simply not be happy unless we all give them a pat on the head and ever so gently explain to them how this is really all their spouses fault and how they're not to blame at all. I don't know if she was one of those people or not, but those people absolutely exist and most of them wind up on LS.


They go to LS or SI because there are specific forums for waywards , where bashing is not allowed. There are also specific forums where BS's cannot be criticized. I never used to think that was necessary on TAM, but I'm changing my mind. The last few days, I have visited both sites to see how they do it, and came away not much impressed with LS, but was greatly impressed by SI's insistence on courtesy.


----------



## Nostromo

Deejo said:


> I believe if she wants to end her marriage, she should tell him.
> 
> I believe if she tells him, there won't be any 'work' to do.
> 
> I believe she has no intention of telling him. So I gave her what she needed to think about.


Then it's fair to say you subscribe to moral relativism? 
If somebody commits a crime you would advise them to weigh the punishment first before turning themselves in as it may be to steep a price to pay? Just as you advised her to keep this hidden from her husband on the basis that he would only use her affair against her because he's just a 'big selfish jerk'. In that line of thinking it's not about doing whats right but about doing whatever will favor yourself in the long run. I see we are not going to change each others mind on this, as we don't have any common ground to stand on. 



Rookie4 said:


> I have no problem with heated debates. But that isn't bashing, and it isn't ganging up on a poster, is it? I've had heated arguments with lots of WS's, even those that I like. So what?


What you say may be correct but according to your own words it would really be up to her to decide if she was being bashed or debated by you.


----------



## Rookie4

Nostromo said:


> Then it's fair to say you subscribe to moral relativism?
> If somebody commits a crime you would advise them to weigh the punishment first before turning themselves in as it may be to steep a price to pay? Just as you advised her to keep this hidden from her husband on the basis that he would only use her affair against her because he's just a 'big selfish jerk'. In that line of thinking it's not about doing whats right but about doing whatever will favor yourself in the long run. I see we are not going to change each others mind on this, as we don't have any common ground to stand on.
> 
> 
> 
> What you say may be correct but according to your own words it would really be up to her to decide if she was being bashed or debated by you.


Oh, I would have to look back at it, but I believe that she did say I was bashing her. I didn't think I was, but obviously she did. Look, Nostromo, I never have ever said that I was innocent. I was just as guilty of berating a WS as any BS here. And I am NOT saying that WS'S should be coddled What I am saying is that it is counter productive to gang up on a poster until they leave in disgust. NOBODY likes to be told multiple times that they are a bad person, especially if they have already admitted it. Like Natasha.


----------



## karole

Do as I say, not as I do.


----------



## Healer

Thundarr said:


> I think you're stuck on a concept. You've decided that BSs are angry people with their heads in the sand who just want to say nasty things. But you echoed what other posters said to Natasha. Then you're angry for everyone running her off when most posters were really respectfully telling her that she needed to be honest. I'm not following why you can say this to her and it's okay but when bfree says it then it's rude?


Precisely. Blatant hypocrisy always fascinates me.


----------



## Nostromo

Rookie4 said:


> Oh, I would have to look back at it, but I believe that she did say I was bashing her. I didn't think I was, but obviously she did. Look, Nostromo, I never have ever said that I was innocent. I was just as guilty of berating a WS as any BS here. And I am NOT saying that WS'S should be coddled What I am saying is that it is counter productive to gang up on a poster until they leave in disgust. NOBODY likes to be told multiple times that they are a bad person, especially if they have already admitted it. Like Natasha.


Fair enough, look I agree with the basic point you're making. That WS should not be treated differently than anybody else here, but when I say that I mean they should literally be treated the same, not be granted an 'untouchable' status the way some people here feel entitled to. If they say some awful depraved s**t people are gonna call them out on it no differently than anybody else.
I still don't see where Natasha was bashed on here. She may feel that she was but just like you said in regards to Mrs. Mathias she may very well be mistaken about that. People told Natasha she was solely responsible for her affair and that she needed to tell her husband in order to work on her marriage and not to blame shift or gaslight him. What is so vicious about that? Was it the tone or a specific word that was used? I'm genuinely perplexed by this.


----------



## Deejo

I'm just still fixated on the irony that a thread inviting wayward spouses is full to the brim with betrayed spouses.


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: To lurking Waywards*

Yes, I think the "blame it all on the BS" mentality on SI is appealing to some people and serves its purpose quite well. So did DC back in those days.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Surely you can see the difference between suggesting and bashing? Some posters went on and on about how her marriage was going to hell and it was all her fault and she was a dishonest person , etc, etc, etc. And this keeps up for post after post. This isn't help, it's persecution. Even after she admitted it was all her fault, they still keep after her. When is enough, enough? Some WS's have to face 20 or 30
> posts of this every time the come on line. It is relentless. Until the WS is so tired of the abuse that they leave. How many times have we seen this happen? When is it going to stop?


Personally I haven't made it through her posts yet, and I never addressed her or "bashed" her. However, as to your question "When is it going to stop?"...probably when people stop cheating on their spouses. As long as you have WS and BS on the same forum, you will have triggers, conflict, disputes, anger. It's human nature.


----------



## pidge70

Deejo said:


> I'm just still fixated on the irony that a thread inviting wayward spouses is full to the brim with betrayed spouses.


This WS just lurks....mostly. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry , but there are no conditions to courtesy.


Sure there is. It starts with those expecting it.

In the past, way before this thread, you have chimed in with less than courteous responses just because you didn't like my opinion on getting rid of someone that cheated.

Again, you have to practice what you preach my man.



> You are either a polite person or you are not. I'm a polite person, most of the time, but even I have my moments, and I'm man enough to admit it. How about you?


I've always admitted it. No problem there, so not sure what touché you think needs to happen here.


----------



## vellocet

Deejo said:


> That's cool too.
> 
> Maybe she'll be back one day and let us know.


Yes, hopefully. She sounded like she knew what had to be done, just has difficulty doing it.

Perhaps she can tell him and her H will forgive and both can work on whatever issues they have in the marriage.


----------



## vellocet

Deejo said:


> I'm just still fixated on the irony that a thread inviting wayward spouses is full to the brim with betrayed spouses.


That's because, and I'll say it again, this thread wasn't really to invite WSs. It was to attract "the mob" so he can argue against those that don't think like himself in the realm of seeing how it somehow is our fault that we were cheated on.

It was obvious in his very first post. And when "the mob" didn't attack, he had to make it up.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Deejo said:


> I'm just still fixated on the irony that a thread inviting wayward spouses is full to the brim with betrayed spouses.


----------



## Rookie4

Nostromo said:


> Fair enough, look I agree with the basic point you're making. That WS should not be treated differently than anybody else here, but when I say that I mean they should literally be treated the same, not be granted an 'untouchable' status the way some people here feel entitled to. If they say some awful depraved s**t people are gonna call them out on it no differently than anybody else.
> I still don't see where Natasha was bashed on here. She may feel that she was but just like you said in regards to Mrs. Mathias she may very well be mistaken about that. People told Natasha she was solely responsible for her affair and that she needed to tell her husband in order to work on her marriage and not to blame shift or gaslight him. What is so vicious about that? Was it the tone or a specific word that was used? I'm genuinely perplexed by this.


I don't advocate treating a WS one iota better than a BS, but not one iota worse, either.


----------



## Rookie4

Deejo said:


> I'm just still fixated on the irony that a thread inviting wayward spouses is full to the brim with betrayed spouses.


That is, of course, the whole point, isn't it. Some BS's simply do not want WS participation, because, it JUST MIGHT make them actually think. Let a WS show his/her face here, and there is literally a stampede to condemn him/her.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> That's because, and I'll say it again, this thread wasn't really to invite WSs. It was to attract "the mob" so he can argue against those that don't think like himself in the realm of seeing how it somehow is our fault that we were cheated on.
> 
> It was obvious in his very first post. And when "the mob" didn't attack, he had to make it up.


 Sorry , Vellocet, as long as you are putting words in my mouth. I won't bite.


----------



## cpacan

I would like to see references to posts where Natasha was bashed since the term keeps popping up.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry , Vellocet, as long as you are putting words in my mouth. I won't bite.



what if he puts a finger in there?


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I have no problem with heated debates. But that isn't bashing, and it isn't ganging up on a poster, is it? I've had heated arguments with lots of WS's, even those that I like. So what?


Funny. You fancy yourself the one who gets to define terms...and change the meaning when it's convenient for you.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry , Vellocet, as long as you are putting words in my mouth. I won't bite.


I didn't put the words in your mouth. Its all right there in your very first post.

And I don't want you to bite. I throw back all carp


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> what if he puts a finger in there?


Did you know that you are a really disgusting person?


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Some BS's simply do not want WS participation, because, it JUST MIGHT make them actually think.


Where does your hatred of BS come from rookie? You are so very, very condescending and just outright rude, in a blanketed way, to BS. Calling us "cowards" and then in the above quote implying we don't "think" and that we don't want WS participation because it "JUST MIGHT" make us think?

Do you not see YOU are in fact "bashing" BS, and not just one or 2 in particular, but ALL of us?

Where does that contempt for people who have been betrayed come from?


----------



## Rookie4

But, funny.


----------



## vellocet

Healer said:


> Where does your hatred of BS come from rookie? You are so very, very condescending and just outright rude, in a blanketed way, to BS. Calling us "cowards" and then in the above quote implying we don't "think" and that we don't want WS participation because it "JUST MIGHT" make us think?
> 
> Do you not see YOU are in fact "bashing" BS, and not just one or 2 in particular, but ALL of us?
> 
> Where does that contempt for people who have been betrayed come from?


We have to remember, he is *just* a BS


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> I'm simply talking about fair play on TAM, not the whole world of adultery. A little perspective , please.


Why should TAM be any different than anywhere else? When you get a large cross section of people together you invariably have different opinions and different ways of stating them. And infidelity is negative. There's no way to put a bow on that pig and call it beautiful.


----------



## Almostrecovered




----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



vellocet said:


> All of that is irrelevant.


It's not irrelevant. We all bring a certain perspective to these discussions. It's that differing viewpoints that bring flavor to these threads.


----------



## convert

BS's get the hard truth and bashing here too and some have been run off especially when they hear what they do not want to hear.
I believe RDMU was one of them.

One of the reasons I have not shared my entire story of my WW is I would get a lot of 2x4's coming my way and maybe rightfully so. Even the wayward spouse's here would probably through some 2x4's my way
heck Rookie you would beat me with a 2x4, at least you were decisive with your exww.

Rookie why didn't you try to R with her? I think you said she came back begging.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Why should TAM be any different than anywhere else? When you get a large cross section of people together you invariably have different opinions and different ways of stating them. And infidelity is negative. There's no way to put a bow on that pig and call it beautiful.


That is simply not true. I thought ALL my 4-H pigs were beautiful. They didn't smell the best, but they looked crackerjack.


----------



## Almostrecovered

bfree said:


> It's not irrelevant. We all bring a certain perspective to these discussions. It's that differing viewpoints that bring flavor to these threads.


Flavor is a cheater too


----------



## vellocet

bfree said:


> It's not irrelevant. We all bring a certain perspective to these discussions. It's that differing viewpoints that bring flavor to these threads.


I know, I was being sarcastic.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> That is simply not true. I thought ALL my 4-H pigs were beautiful. They didn't smell the best, but they looked crackerjack.


So since, and not by me, pigs were an analogy for WSs, you just said WSs smell, but you want to eat them alive anyway


----------



## vellocet

Almostrecovered said:


> Flavor is a cheater too


*OOOOOH Running for your life

Running from the wife

I can't do nuttin' for you man, Flava Flav got problems of his own.*


----------



## Rookie4

convert said:


> BS's get the hard truth and bashing here too and some have been run off especially when they hear what they do not want to hear.
> I believe RDMU was one of them.
> 
> One of the reasons I have not shared my entire story of my WW is I would get a lot of 2x4's coming my way and maybe rightfully so. Even the wayward spouse's here would probably through some 2x4's my way
> heck Rookie you would beat me with a 2x4, at least you were decisive with your exww.
> 
> Rookie why didn't you try to R with her? I think you said she came back begging.


 Actually, We did try, about 2 1/2 years after the divorce. She was a far different person than she used to be. Had her anger under control, was remorseful, Basically did everything a WS can do to reconcile. We gave it about a year, and she even moved into my house. I tried as hard as I could, and learned that she is now a very good, honest person, but You cannot force yourself to be in love with somebody. I had met someone else, and so the EX and I parted as friends. It's in the reconciliation thread.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> So since, and not by me, pigs were an analogy for WSs, you just said WSs smell, but you want to eat them alive anyway


Do you ever get tired of being wrong? .: The analogy was somebody else's. My pigs were Hamps, thank you very much.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Great, now I want bacon


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> Do you ever get tired of being wrong? .: The analogy was somebody else's. My pigs were Hamps, thank you very much.


Uh ya, I know it was someone elses analogy. You replied to it.

Are you missing something here? Reading comprehension perhaps?


----------



## Healer

bfree said:


> Why should TAM be any different than anywhere else? When you get a large cross section of people together you invariably have different opinions and different ways of stating them. And infidelity is negative. There's no way to put a bow on that pig and call it beautiful.


Oink.


----------



## Almostrecovered




----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



vellocet said:


> I know, I was being sarcastic.


Oh.....sorry....Lol


----------



## Pluto2

Almostrecovered said:


> Great, now I want bacon


You are now my most favorite poster of all times


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> Uh ya, I know it was someone elses analogy. You replied to it.
> 
> Are you missing something here? Reading comprehension perhaps?


Really? You knew that? I am proud of you.


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


>


Hah!! My hogs were so pretty that they didn't need makeup.


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> Great, now I want bacon


My sister would never say bacon, ham or pork,etc, around the hogs. She said it was weird. I always thought that SHE was weird.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Rookie4 said:


> Hah!! My hogs were so pretty that they didn't need makeup.


----------



## Deejo

vellocet said:


> Yes, hopefully. She sounded like she knew what had to be done, just has difficulty doing it.
> 
> Perhaps she can tell him and her H will forgive and both can work on whatever issues they have in the marriage.


God honest truth, I would love that outcome. Seriously, I think that is the kind of post, were it made, that would do a lot of people here, a lot of good.

When people behave in inspiring ways, it tends to be contagious.


----------



## Rookie4

I would post the Gilbert Gottfried Farmers joke, but I would probably get banned.


----------



## Almostrecovered

reported


----------



## Wolf1974

Stay on topic


----------



## Almostrecovered

Wolf1974 said:


> Stay on topic


Sorry






I love bacon


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> Sorry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love bacon


So do I, but don't tell the pigs or my sister will hit you with a shovel.


----------



## Deejo

Almostrecovered said:


>


Jesus. Age. Christ ...


----------



## Almostrecovered

well when someone talks about how pretty a pig is, it's the first thing that pops into my head


----------



## vellocet

Deejo said:


> God honest truth, I would love that outcome. Seriously, I think that is the kind of post, were it made, that would do a lot of people here, a lot of good.
> 
> When people behave in inspiring ways, it tends to be contagious.


Well geez, I'm not completely heartless to WSs, as a few of them know. But I am going to call bulls*** when appropriate.


----------



## vellocet

Wolf1974 said:


> Stay on topic


Yes, lots of reportable off topic posts, don't want to be threatened


----------



## Almostrecovered

vellocet said:


> Yes, lots of reportable off topic posts, don't want to be threatened



reported for sarcasm


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> reported for sarcasm


Reported for reporting sarcasm.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Rookie4 said:


> Reported for reporting sarcasm.



reported for unfair turnabout of joke


----------



## Rookie4

FWIW, My hogs were sows and far better looking than Ned Beatty.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Great now I need a shower


----------



## vellocet

Almostrecovered said:


> reported for sarcasm


reported for announcing its reported


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> FWIW, My hogs were sows and far better looking than Ned Beatty.


Rookie, you consorted with pigs? I knew there was something I liked about you.


----------



## bandit.45

I saw Deliverence when I was twelve. Messed me up for life. I still can't watch that movie. I had a phobia against banjos for years.


----------



## Healer

bandit.45 said:


> I saw Deliverence when I was twelve. Messed me up for life. I still can't watch that movie. I had a phobia against banjos for years.


Banjos? My phobia was of inbred, homosexual hillbilly rapists. And Ned Beatty.


----------



## staystrong




----------



## Rookie4

Well, I see another very good WS poster has been run off. I will miss Regret, and her insight, and TAM is the poorer for her banning.:


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Well, I see another very good WS poster has been run off. I will miss Regret, and her insight, and TAM is the poorer for her banning.:


Was she "run off" or banned? 2 different things.


----------



## Wolf1974

Healer said:


> Was she "run off" or banned? 2 different things.


Yes two VERY different things


----------



## Rookie4

I've got an idea, why don't you read the thread? and find out what happened for yourself.


----------



## Wolf1974

Is that directed at me?


----------



## Rookie4

You (pl) as in anybody who wants to. But that particular thread has been closed, so it isn't important.


----------



## Almostrecovered

do you need a hug too Rookie?


----------



## Wolf1974

I did read it, plenty of people got banned looks like. Can't keep it civil then away you go


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I've got an idea, why don't you read the thread? and find out what happened for yourself.


Nah. I was more interested in why you would type that she was "run off" when in fact she was banned.

You also never addressed my earlier post (#2451). Not surprised though.


----------



## pidge70




----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> do you need a hug too Rookie?


Hell, no!. I would like a couple of Brewskis though. Hey , one of these days , they will let me out of my cell (office) and I will actually be free again.:smthumbup:


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> Nah. I was more interested in why you would type that she was "run off" when in fact she was banned.
> 
> You also never addressed my earlier post (#2451). Not surprised though.


Dude, I told you that I wasn't going to respond to your posts, and I meant it. So, say whatever you want. Knock yourself out.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Dude, I told you that I wasn't going to respond to your posts, and I meant it. So, say whatever you want. Knock yourself out.


You mean you only respond to certain posts (see above). Just not ones where you know you've been busted for being hypocritical and have "bashed" BS. We get it. That clears it up for a lot of us here. Thanks!


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> I did read it, plenty of people got banned looks like. Can't keep it civil then away you go


Apparently it was quite a fracas. I thought in the beginning that it was pretty innocent, but it certainly heated up ,later.


----------



## Rookie4

I don't think that Deejo had any choice. Either for the bannings or for closing the thread.


----------



## larry.gray

Healer said:


> Nah. I was more interested in why you would type that she was "run off" when in fact she was banned.
> 
> You also never addressed my earlier post (#2451). Not surprised though.


She was most definitely severely baited. What was said to her was very vile and reprehensible.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> You (pl) as in anybody who wants to. But that particular thread has been closed, so it isn't important.


I made a conscious decision not to go on that thread. I knew it was trouble right from the start.


----------



## larry.gray

bfree said:


> I made a conscious decision not to go on that thread. I knew it was trouble right from the start.


I consider it a badge of honor that I dabbled in that thread and didn't get banned for it.


----------



## Thundarr

Yall are killing me. WHAT THREAD?


----------



## honcho

Thundarr said:


> Yall are killing me. WHAT THREAD?


revenge ideas anyone? is the thread judging from the amount of bans.


----------



## Thundarr

honcho said:


> revenge ideas anyone? is the thread judging from the amount of bans.


Thank you honcho. I want to pretend that that I'm not nosy but these 'that thread' references made me show my color. Shame on you 'that thread' referencers


----------



## LongWalk

ScarletBegonias said:


> I turned off my ability to receive and send PMs this morning.I don't really even want to log in here anymore and only did it with the encouragement of my doc bc I was so hung up that people saw me as a good wife when I'm clearly not.I had to say I'm not.She wants me to move forward even if it's just a small step.
> I had a meltdown yesterday even though life in my house is peaceful and on the mend. I accidentally cut my fingers pulling apart a shaving razor.So that had to be explained which is beyond humiliating. I didn't do anything else w/the razors though so that's one positive mark for my willpower I guess.I don't want to be a walking bpd cliche. hurting myself hurts DH more.hurting myself actually was always a way to make myself feel better and I don't deserve that release.so that would just be another thing I've done wrong to him.I promised him a few years back that I'd never do that stuff again.
> He's so good and pure and every bit of love anyone could ask to have in life. Why wasn't I thinking more about that when I was being a disgusting person? Validation about my looks was worth more than his trust and love at the time?? It's unreal to me now.It makes me want to throw up.Can't imagine how he is so normal and understanding.
> I really have no one except DH,myself,and my doc.I think it's better that way though bc I can't be trusted. I thought I was confident and strong and didn't need validation from Dh but obviously I need it badly or I wouldn't have gotten caught up in receiving it from strangers online. I don't even want to talk about it anymore.I want it to stop weighing on me. I was fine then I wasn't.
> Thank you for the tips and suggestions.
> Peace.


Hope she is okay.


----------



## Squeakr

SunnyT said:


> It's not adultery that hurts the children. It's divorce.


I completely and vehemently disagree with this statement. My children are aware of the STBXW's indiscretions and they now questions all of her motives and actions. Why would she choose being with OM over being with us? Why did she lie to be with OM instead of choosing to be with us? Why did she not want to be alone with us and had to invite OM along when we went to dinner, as it was supposed to be mommy and me time? Why did Mommy's friends not stop this or talk to her about instead of supporting her, as they knew all about it?

These were all questions they asked and now they are afraid that she is going to continue that behavior with other OM and they will be left alone. They also "caught" them in the act and can't understand how I wasn't the one she wanted to be with and wonder when she is late or goes somewhere alone what exactly she is doing (at their ages they shouldn't be aware of this and yet they are due to the exposure).

Tell us all again how the adultery doesn't hurt children and it is all in the divorce!!


----------



## bfree

"Mother is the name of God in the lips and hearts of little children" - William Makepeace Thackeray

When a parent commits an unconscionable act such as infidelity it shakes the faith of the children and forever damages the bond that they share.


----------



## missthelove2013

ugh
If you are married with children and you have an affair, you just placed the needs of your crotch over your children...if THAT does not take away from your over all parenting score, than...um...really???

Anyone with one iota of intelligence knows what an affair will do to their marriage, and more importantly their kids...but they do it anyways...yeah thats parent of the year...if you place the needs of your crotch over your kids, then YES it should have bearing when custody is decided...

there is a helluva lot more to being a good parent than feeding clothing schooling and hugging your kids...you are setting by example and molding them best you can BY example to be good adults and make good choices...i dont care how old they are when the affair happened, they WILL find out and they will know their mommy or daddy lied decieved manipulated snuck around and had sex with someone else, possigbly someone else who had kids, had sex in sleazy hotels, cars, whatever...that they chose their crotch over their family...and the parent of the year is,..

phhhttttt


----------



## missthelove2013

Regret214 said:


> I don't think anyone is saying that children aren't affected if the couple divorces. I know I wouldn't say that. I WILL say again that just because someone has an affair does not necessarily mean that they're neglecting their children. To say so is to compare it to drinking, smoking and marijuana use. That's my opinion.
> 
> Not every wayward is as bad or heinous as "yours".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


divorce because the parents did not get along is a lot different than divorce because someone chose getting off over their families...my mom was a cheating slvt and I cut off ALL contact with her after the divorce...she died not knowing my kids...she destroyed our family, our memories, our lives because she liked getting schtoofed by the young neighbor kid... she was no more or less abusive in my eyes than someone who beats their kids, or molests them...at least as far as the long term effects


----------



## missthelove2013

ReformedHubby said:


> The fog is one of those things that I just can't get on board with. When I was falling for my wife I wasn't in the fog. I was falling in love.
> 
> Why is it different because its an AP? I think what we refer to on TAM as fog is really someone falling in love or in "new love" with their AP. In other words I don't believe there is such a thing as fog.


me neither...fog is just a nice word to lessen bad choice making...I was in a fog when I hit my kid...same nonsense...

there is no fog...there is only choices...:scratchhead:


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



bfree said:


> "Mother is the name of God in the lips and hearts of little children" - William Makepeace Thackeray
> 
> When a parent commits an unconscionable act such as infidelity it shakes the faith of the children and forever damages the bond that they share.


Not always. I mentioned my aunt either earlier in this thread or in one or more others. She cheated on her first husband, the father of her oldest two daughters. She married OM and they have been married over 20 years. She and her daughters are all very close. And this aunt has always been my favorite aunt. She is my mother's sister, the last remaining child of my grandparents, though she has 3 half-siblings on grandpa's side. My aunt and her second husband have a daughter together, too. Again, they are all close. 

As far as the one who compared a cheater to a child molester... what a load of bullshyte. I would 100% trust my kids in the care of my aunt, but will NEVER leave them in the care of my cousin (dad's side), who is a convicted child molester! No way in hell!

But I'm a "lowly wayward"... my feelings on the subject hold no water with some people.


----------



## bandit.45

Maricha75 said:


> Not always. I mentioned my aunt either earlier in this thread or in one or more others. She cheated on her first husband, the father of her oldest two daughters. She married OM and they have been married over 20 years. She and her daughters are all very close. And this aunt has always been my favorite aunt. She is my mother's sister, the last remaining child of my grandparents, though she has 3 half-siblings on grandpa's side. My aunt and her second husband have a daughter together, too. Again, they are all close.
> 
> As far as the one who compared a cheater to a child molester... what a load of bullshyte. I would 100% trust my kids in the care of my aunt, but will NEVER leave them in the care of my cousin (dad's side), who is a convicted child molester! No way in hell!
> 
> But I'm a "lowly wayward"... my feelings on the subject hold no water with some people.


Do your cousins know the truth of why their mom and dad divorced? Or did your aunt spin the story to her advantage and paint their dad as Hitler's younger brother?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally posted by bfree
> "Mother is the name of God in the lips and hearts of little children" - William Makepeace Thackeray



Good point! Young children look to their mother and father to see traces of God. *In fact those children get their security, love, and self esteem from their parents.*








> When a parent commits an unconscionable act such as infidelity it shakes the faith of the children and f*orever *damages the bond that they share.


You are right bfree; it shakes the faith of those children to the very core. Infidelity does damage for years and sometimes decades and even forever. However,* a mother that commits infidelity is not doomed to damaged bonds with her children FOREVER*


The damage done to my young s children when their mother committed infidelity was one of the biggest pains that I suffered. I can still get hurt when I think about it and that infidelity was 20+ years ago! When my wife came crawling back after her infidelity, my daughter left our home, went to live with my sister, because she could not stand to be in the same room or to look at her mothers face. My son was devastated and was found crying and walking in the streets and was brought home by a friend.


I am not about to diminish the great damage that a mother’s infidelity does to her children but it does not have to be forever. After many years my daughter finally told me how much she admires me for taking her mother back. *The bond between my children and their mother is that they are very close now*. My wife had to prove herself for many years but now she is very much loved by her children and they come to see her often. If there is damage now I sure do not see it but I do see my children and their mother a lot closer than almost every one in our large extended family and they include mother’s that have never committed infidelity.


Again, I do not what to diminish infidelity and the damage that it can do to the bonds of mother and children but with the right attitude and actions the damages are not forever for some. 
*The damaged bonds can be healed in time!*


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



bandit.45 said:


> Do your cousins know the truth of why their mom and dad divorced? Or did your aunt spin the story to her advantage and paint their dad as Hitler's younger brother?


They absolutely do know the whole story. They lived it. And now, my aunt and uncle (he has been, and always will be, my uncle from the time I was born) are on friendly terms. Same with him and her second husband. They are both my uncles, and everyone is fine with that. 

My point is that as much as many would like it to be, not everything is absolute. Is cheating wrong? Yes. Can families be ok, or even better, after it occurs? Yes. Whether many of you wish to believe it or not. And, yes, I know the truth about the circumstances as well. I got it from my aunt, my uncle (the first one), as well as my cousins. Each version meshes with the others, as well as what I know from when she stayed at our house when she left her first husband.


----------



## bandit.45

Oh I believe it. When you have parties willing to forgive and move on. 

I hope your aunt taught her daughters that cheating is not the way to deal with an unhappy marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FalconKing

Maricha75 said:


> They absolutely do know the whole story. They lived it. And now, my aunt and uncle (he has been, and always will be, my uncle from the time I was born) are on friendly terms. Same with him and her second husband. They are both my uncles, and everyone is fine with that.
> 
> My point is that as much as many would like it to be, not everything is absolute. Is cheating wrong? Yes. Can families be ok, or even better, after it occurs? Yes. Whether many of you wish to believe it or not. And, yes, I know the truth about the circumstances as well. I got it from my aunt, my uncle (the first one), as well as my cousins. Each version meshes with the others, as well as what I know from when she stayed at our house when she left her first husband.


Thanks for sharing Maricha. I am curious though. What were the circumstances in the affair? Who do the kids blame? How did her first husband cope? Was he not a good husband to her, prior the affair? Inattentive, selfish or abusive in any way?


----------



## 3putt

Maricha75 said:


> My point is that as much as many would like it to be, not everything is absolute. Is cheating wrong? Yes. Can families be ok, or even better, after it occurs? Yes. Whether many of you wish to believe it or not. And, yes, I know the truth about the circumstances as well. I got it from my aunt, my uncle (the first one), as well as my cousins. Each version meshes with the others, as well as what I know from when she stayed at our house when she left her first husband.


I would hope that I could never embrace any happiness I gained from adultery at the expense of someone else's emotional trauma.

I don't see how I could look myself in the mirror and feel proud for what others had to pay for my 'happiness'.

No way.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



FalconKing said:


> Thanks for sharing Maricha. I am curious though. What were the circumstances in the affair? Who do the kids blame? How did her first husband cope? Was he not a good husband to her, prior the affair? Inattentive, selfish or abusive in any way?


He was an abusive alcoholic. Yes, he still drinks, but way less than he did when they were married. The girls didn't put blame on either of them. How did he cope? He stopped drinking for a little while. I believe he hoped that would get her to come back. I remember that she had lost weight, before she even started seeing her current husband. The more she lost, the more her ex put her down. She did it for her health, not to find a new man. But he wanted her overweight because he could control her that way. And, yes, he admitted as much himself.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



3putt said:


> I would hope that I could never embrace any happiness I gained from adultery at the expense of someone else's emotional trauma.
> 
> I don't see how I could look myself in the mirror and feel proud for what others had to pay for my 'happiness'.
> 
> No way.


Ok? Well, the point I was making is that some people are able to forgive and move on, rather than letting the bitterness fester. We all deal with it our own ways. *shrug*


----------



## 3putt

Maricha75 said:


> Ok? Well, the point I was making is that some people are able to forgive and move on, rather than letting the bitterness fester. We all deal with it our own ways. *shrug*


Yeah, it's easy to say 'forgive and move on' and not 'fester in that bitterness' when you aren't the one that has to deal with that level of trauma and the aftermath.

You are completely incapable of understanding what this does to people. After all, you're the other side of this.....right?


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



3putt said:


> Yeah, it's easy to say 'forgive and move on' and not 'fester in that bitterness' when you aren't the one that has to deal with that level of trauma and the aftermath.
> 
> You are completely incapable of understanding what this does to people. After all, you're the other side of this.....right?


Both sides, actually. And we chose not to tell the kids anything about it. My mom knew. My dad does, as do both of my sisters. No idea if they shared the info with their husbands or not.

So, no, I am certainly not "completely incapable of understanding what this does to people." But then, I have mentioned my own situation quite a few times over the two years I have been here. It's no secret that I was WW as well as BW, essentially simultaneously. Incapable of understanding? No. Capable of stating the fact that SOME are capable of moving on, without it being thrown in anyone's face, time after time? Yep.


----------



## 3putt

Maricha75 said:


> Both sides, actually. And we chose not to tell the kids anything about it. My mom knew. My dad does, as do both of my sisters. No idea if they shared the info with their husbands or not.
> 
> So, no, I am certainly not "completely incapable of understanding what this does to people." But then, I have mentioned my own situation quite a few times over the two years I have been here. It's no secret that I was WW as well as BW, essentially simultaneously. Incapable of understanding? No. Capable of stating the fact that SOME are capable of moving on, without it being thrown in anyone's face, time after time? Yep.


Well, I would imagine when it's bilateral instead of unilateral it's a bit more palatable to stomach.

I guess that makes it even Steven, huh?

Okay, whatever.


----------



## FalconKing

3putt said:


> Well, I would imagine when it's bilateral instead of unilateral it's a bit more palatable to stomach.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess that makes it even Steven, huh?
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, whatever.



Umm.. Really? You mad at her for making a post about how people deal with adultery? It's not like she said it was ok..


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



3putt said:


> Well, I would imagine when it's bilateral instead of unilateral it's a bit more palatable to stomach.
> 
> I guess that makes it even Steven, huh?
> 
> Okay, whatever.


What makes you think it's palatable? Because we both did it? Pretty sad that you feel the need to reduce my contribution, but whatever. What's even worse is that when someone presents a case, or more than one case, where things improved for all involved, that gets shot down. No, it wasn't, and isn't palatable at all. But my husband and I CHOSE to forgive each other. We CHOSE to not let it consume us, to direct our lives. Same with my aunt and uncles. They made the conscious decision to forgive and to go on with their lives. How long did it take to fully heal? I have no idea. I know it wasn't instant... but it also wasn't recent.

"Okay, whatever", indeed.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Mr Blunt said:


> Good point! Young children look to their mother and father to see traces of God. *In fact those children get their security, love, and self esteem from their parents.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are right bfree; it shakes the faith of those children to the very core. Infidelity does damage for years and sometimes decades and even forever. However,* a mother that commits infidelity is not doomed to damaged bonds with her children FOREVER*
> 
> 
> The damage done to my young s children when their mother committed infidelity was one of the biggest pains that I suffered. I can still get hurt when I think about it and that infidelity was 20+ years ago! When my wife came crawling back after her infidelity, my daughter left our home, went to live with my sister, because she could not stand to be in the same room or to look at her mothers face. My son was devastated and was found crying and walking in the streets and was brought home by a friend.
> 
> 
> I am not about to diminish the great damage that a mother’s infidelity does to her children but it does not have to be forever. After many years my daughter finally told me how much she admires me for taking her mother back. *The bond between my children and their mother is that they are very close now*. My wife had to prove herself for many years but now she is very much loved by her children and they come to see her often. If there is damage now I sure do not see it but I do see my children and their mother a lot closer than almost every one in our large extended family and they include mother’s that have never committed infidelity.
> 
> 
> Again, I do not what to diminish infidelity and the damage that it can do to the bonds of mother and children but with the right attitude and actions the damages are not forever for some.
> *The damaged bonds can be healed in time!*


Yes Mr B, and that is why I separate betrayers into two camps. Those that repent, atone and demonstrate true remorse and those that don't. We are all sinners and we are all capable of being forgiven. Just as a bond can be broken it can also be reestablished. However, with all due respect the bond your wife now shares with your children might be as strong or even stronger than it was but it will never be the same. That sense of innocence is gone forever. It's just another casualty of infidelity. I commend you both for the tireless noble work you have both put in to provide a loving environment for your children. Not an easy task for either the WS or the BS to perform.


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## 3putt

FalconKing said:


> Umm.. Really? You mad at her for making a post about how people deal with adultery? It's not like she said it was ok..


No, I'm not mad at her at all....I actually like Maricha. I'm just stating my thoughts and opinions directly to her, not you.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Maricha75 said:


> They absolutely do know the whole story. They lived it. And now, my aunt and uncle (he has been, and always will be, my uncle from the time I was born) are on friendly terms. Same with him and her second husband. They are both my uncles, and everyone is fine with that.
> 
> My point is that as much as many would like it to be, not everything is absolute. Is cheating wrong? Yes. Can families be ok, or even better, after it occurs? Yes. Whether many of you wish to believe it or not. And, yes, I know the truth about the circumstances as well. I got it from my aunt, my uncle (the first one), as well as my cousins. Each version meshes with the others, as well as what I know from when she stayed at our house when she left her first husband.


But the bond will never be the same will it? It may be strong. They may be close. But in the backs of their minds they will always know that their mother is capable of betrayal. When a cup is shattered you can glue it back together. It may even be stronger than before. But the cracks will always be there.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



bfree said:


> But the bond will never be the same will it? It may be strong. They may be close. But in the backs of their minds they will always know that their mother is capable of betrayal. When a cup is shattered you can glue it back together. It may even be stronger than before. But the cracks will always be there.


Tbh, bfree, they are much closer now than they were when we were growing up. As far as what's in the back of their minds about their mother, I couldn't begin to guess. But perhaps they learned it's better to find someone new, rather than remain in an abusive relationship "for the kids' sake". They were of age to understand and to for their own opinions on it. Or, perhaps they learned that ANYONE is capable, even if the vehemently express otherwise. Capable does not necessarily mean succumb.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



3putt said:


> No, I'm not mad at her at all....I actually like Maricha. I'm just stating my thoughts and opinions directly to her, not you.


Actually, FalconKing's impression was the same way I interpreted what you said.


----------



## FalconKing

3putt said:


> No, I'm not mad at her at all....I actually like Maricha. I'm just stating my thoughts and opinions directly to her, not you.



Hmm..you know how some people get mad and then say they are not mad? I didn't think it was possible to see that through written communication. Guess I was wrong!


----------



## Squeakr

staystrong said:


> Many APs do not counsel their kids to not make the "same mistake" because they feel like it invalidates what they did. You seem wiser than most.
> 
> Subconsciously kids may think "I love Mommy, and if Mommy did this, than it must be okay" on some level. Amidst all the other things they are thinking/feeling. For some, it may bring them subconsciously closer to the parent who abandoned them, split the family and caused them trauma. Without trying to make you feel guilty, I'll remind you that you destroyed the reality they knew and love. You destroyed the thing that every child prizes most: a mother and father together. Sorry, but I have a lot of resentment against people who do this. I think part of their soul is missing in order to do something like that. Or they simply love themselves too much.


I think it also grows into the mix that the APs will tend to justify this with statements like, "I didn't love mommy/daddy anymore and found someone new that I loved. Am I not allowed to be happy? Should I suffer in misery the rest of my life, or would your rather see mommy/daddy happy?"

The kids don't understand that it may only be infatuation, lust, etc driving the A and instead see that the WS is actually seeking something that is believed to be good for them. They now learn through actions and words that it is okay once the love is perceived to be "gone" or "no longer there" to take matters into their hands and make themselves happy at whatever expense it may cost to others. Since the kids may have never seen the unhappiness between the parents, they are taught inadvertently that it is okay to be narcissistic and pursue solely their happiness in life without concern or care for others. Teaching these types of lessons (whether intended or not makes one a bad parent in my eyes. Nothing like raising a generation of ME centric individuals).


----------



## Deejo

For everything I have seen posted about children, infidelity, and divorce, I'm comfortable saying that many of these responses still sound as if coming from those recently betrayed, or entrenched in bitterness. Once again, demonstrating why most of the waywards posting here, don't broadcast that they are waywards. 

Having been the child of a messy divorce at 15, and then getting divorced with 2 young children, I'll reiterate what I have said in the past.

Children are mirrors. They don't care about whether or not mommy and daddy are knocking boots with one another, or with someone else ... and they shouldn't have to.

They care about how mom and dad make them feel. If mom and dad act spiteful and hateful, ambivalent and dismissive, or loving and supportive ... that is what the kids know and feel.

I know parents that are not cheaters, and they suck as parents.

I know those that are cheaters, and they are extraordinary parents.

Trying to pull whether or not kids know the 'truth' into the equation is a red herring.

Short of an extraordinarily dysfunctional spouse that is hell - bent on hurting you, or is consciously avoiding, ignoring and harming their children, infidelity plays absolutely no role in what kind of parent you are.

Whether or not your children feel safe, loved, and supported determines what kind of parent you are, regardless if you are a wayward or a betrayed.


----------



## bfree

Maricha75 said:


> Tbh, bfree, they are much closer now than they were when we were growing up. As far as what's in the back of their minds about their mother, I couldn't begin to guess. But perhaps they learned it's better to find someone new, rather than remain in an abusive relationship "for the kids' sake". They were of age to understand and to for their own opinions on it. Or, perhaps they learned that ANYONE is capable, even if the vehemently express otherwise. Capable does not necessarily mean succumb.


I guess I'm talking more about the loss of innocence that occurs in this type of situation. I'm also thinking about the example your aunt set for her children by cheating and how it may play out in the future. Yes it is unquestionably better to leave an abusive relationship but also consideration must be given to HOW you leave that relationship. In their case they might have learned that valuable lesson but they might have also learned that it is okay to deceive and cheat if you feel the situation warrants such behavior. Maybe when they grow up and enter into a relationship they will look for another companion rather than try to work things out with their current partner? Unfortunately the sword does cut both ways does it not? In a way their close relationship gives me pause to consider that they fully accepted that what she did was acceptable and saw nothing wrong in her actions. Frankly that concerns me as it should you.


----------



## bfree

Deejo said:


> For everything I have seen posted about children, infidelity, and divorce, I'm comfortable saying that many of these responses still sound as if coming from those recently betrayed, or entrenched in bitterness. Once again, demonstrating why most of the waywards posting here, don't broadcast that they are waywards.
> 
> Having been the child of a messy divorce at 15, and then getting divorced with 2 young children, I'll reiterate what I have said in the past.
> 
> Children are mirrors. They don't care about whether or not mommy and daddy are knocking boots with one another, or with someone else ... and they shouldn't have to.
> 
> I know parents that are not cheaters, and they suck as parents.
> 
> I know those that are cheaters, and they are extraordinary parents.
> 
> Trying to pull whether or not kids know the 'truth' into the equation is a red herring.
> 
> Short of an extraordinarily dysfunctional spouse that is hell - bent on hurting you, or is consciously avoiding, ignoring and harming their children, infidelity plays absolutely no role in what kind of parent you are.
> 
> Whether or not your children feel safe, loved, and supported determines what kind of parent you are, regardless if you are a wayward or a betrayed.


I completely disagree. As you say children mirror their parents. If a child is aware of a parent's cheating it can most definitely affect the establishment of their adult relationships and how they interact with their partners. A cheating spouse can be a good parent in many ways but the fact that they are cheating means they cannot be a good role model for their children. I really don't think there is any question about that.


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## 2ntnuf

There are many many ways to justify cheating and it's side effects.


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## Deejo

I assure you there is a question, and always will be.


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## bfree

Just a follow up. A quick Google search brought this article up.

It's not just about the couple; infidelity can cause lasting damage to children | Deseret News

_Experts say children who learn about parental infidelity react similarly to children whose parents divorce, except the emotional responses to cheating are deeper and can have greater, longer-lasting impacts.

"(Infidelity) violates everything they know about their parents as people," said Don-David Lusterman, a marriage and family clinical psychologist and author. "(Their parents) have told them to be good, tell the truth...and suddenly they discover that their parent is doing something way out of the promises they know that their mom and dad have made to each other."

"With all these messages we're giving to our children, our (future) society will be different," said Ana Nogales, clinical psychologist and author of "Parents Who Cheat: How Children and Adults are Affected When Their Parents Are Unfaithful." "What is important is to create awareness that cheating in the marriage or a serious relationship is not just something about the two people, but it may affect, at some point, the whole family. So when people think 'This doesn't involve my children. It has nothing to do with my children,' they're lying to themselves. When this is known, the children are seriously affected."
_


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## Deejo

Key words in that lengthy quote, "it may ..."


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## bfree

Another article I came across.

How to ruin your child's chance of a happy love life: Have an affair - and the damage is WORSE the older they are when you stray | Daily Mail Online

_Over the past three years, I’ve interviewed experts and talked to dozens of men and women who have experienced (or are still having) affairs. What resonated most for me was the emotional fall-out on the young.

There’s something badly wrong with society when we put our entitlement to sexual stimulation and release above the needs of our children. If we then rush into a separation or divorce, we fail them at least as much as we fail ourselves.

Jean Duncombe, a sociologist who has conducted extensive research on the subject, says: ‘I’m puritanical when someone tells me they’re having an affair — because of the work we’ve done on the impact of divorce on the children.
‘If people say to me that the children don’t know, I say: “Are you sure?” or “Think about what you’re doing to the children” — and I never would have said that 20 years ago.’
For parents who have affairs are not only lying to their partners, they are often deceiving themselves about the impact their infidelity can have on their offspring.

Lesley was a schoolgirl when her mother discovered her husband had been having an affair with a work colleague. Most of the couple’s friends already knew, so the humiliation was searing. They had to move to another town — which meant Lesley leaving not only her home, but also her school and her friends.
‘I still find it hard to trust that when my boyfriend’s late or not with me and doesn’t answer his phone, that he’s doing what he says he’s doing,’ she says.
‘It’s as if disaster is always waiting in the wings and he’s going to leave me — even though all this happened when I was eight and I’m now 28.’

Lily says her adult children find it hard to trust and respect their father because he lied to them as children and still denies he had an affair with the woman to whom he’s now married.
‘My son went through a very bad time as a teenager, drinking too much and running away,’ she says.
‘Both children mind to this day that my ex has never come clean about what really happened.
‘My daughter hasn’t settled down with anyone yet — she doesn’t trust that it could last.
‘My son, who’s married, once asked me if I thought infidelity might be in his genes because of the fact his father was serially unfaithful.
‘He seriously considered not getting married at all because he didn’t want to risk hurting his girlfriend in the way that he’d been hurt.’
_


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



2ntnuf said:


> There are many many ways to justify cheating and it's side effects.


At least as many as justifying to oneself that we are somehow 'better than', those who chose infidelity.

Both are a self deluding farce.


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## bfree

Deejo said:


> Key words in that lengthy quote, "it may ..."


When it comes to my children "may" is too great of a risk in my mind.


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## Nostromo

People sure love to give themselves an 'out' when it comes to parenting. If anybody honestly believes that their kids don't watch their actions to see if they line up with their words, well lets just say I have some bad news for you. You can't spend their entire childhood drilling honesty and kindness into them and then expect them to just look the other way when you behave in a manner that is both deceptive and cruel. "Do as I say, not as I do" comes to mind.


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## bfree

Deejo said:


> At least as many as justifying to oneself that we are somehow 'better than', those who chose infidelity.
> 
> Both are a self deluding farce.


Before I remarried I was a right [email protected] I abused alcohol and drugs. I was violent. I slept around with many women. I stole from strangers and from friends and family. I've been "good" for quite a while now. Some friends and family forgave me, some didn't. And I don't blame them. But even the ones that forgave me never fully trust me again. I can see every now and then "the look." The side eyed look that tells me that something I'm doing reminds them of how I used to be. It will ALWAYS be there and it's my fault. And I know the depth that I can sink to. I know I can do it again. I'm fully capable of becoming that person so I actively guard against it. I KNOW I am not better than anyone else.

It is with that same knowledge that I discuss infidelity. I will NEVER do anything to illicit "that look" from my children. I am not afraid of much in this world but that thought terrifies me.


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## Rookie4

bfree said:


> When it comes to my children "may" is too great of a risk in my mind.


Bfree, you take risks with your kids , all of the time. All parents do, it's part of the equation. To single out infidelity as one of the main examples of bad parenting, is an excuse, not a factual representation.


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## 2ntnuf

Deejo said:


> At least as many as justifying to oneself that we are somehow 'better than', those who chose infidelity.
> 
> Both are a self deluding farce.


Deejo, whatever dude. Let it go. We don't see eye to eye. It was a general comment and not meant to hurt your feelings.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



bfree said:


> When it comes to my children "may" is too great of a risk in my mind.


One that you have little control over. So? Do you jam down their throat that mommy was giving blow jobs to the handy man because you are hurt and bitter about it, or do you look to their well being and best interest instead?

I've stated in the past that if your teen or adult child wants to have that discussion, then you have it. But to force the concept of infidelity to kids who don't even know where babies come from, in my opinion that choice is every bit as wreckless as your partner choosing to betray in the first place.

If you want your kids to know that mommy is a cheating wh0re, or daddy can't keep his peck!r zipped up, whatever the result, outcome, or impact it has on your kids is just as much on you, as it is your cheating spouse.

Your job is to keep your children safe, not to use them as pawns in a game of brinkmanship as you dissolve or try to recover your failed marriage. 

It's selfish and unnecessary, unless as I said, the cheating spouse has gone completely off the rails and their behavior threatens the safety of the kids.


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## Rookie4

I, too did lots of questionable things, and still do. But what I do, isn't a reflection on my parenting skills or my love for my kids. Neither was my wife's affair a reflection on hers. She was the best mother a kid could have , and I would go upside anyone's melon , who said otherwise. I didn't become a good parent by becoming Saint Rookie.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Rookie, do your children feel that love or do they know it by actions which they perceive as loving? It's the old, "actions speak louder than words, love is an action word, etc."

Just trying to get you to see what others are saying about it and how you are switching back and forth from one concept to another. I'm not alien to that myself.



Oh, and bfree, I resemble those remarks.  I just don't tell people that stuff readily. Those I've exposed myself to know. 

And, what's that saying about walking in another's shoes? We can't know what they truly think and feel or have done and why they did it.


----------



## Rookie4

2ntnuf said:


> Rookie, do your children feel that love or do they know it by actions which they perceive as loving? It's the old, "actions speak louder than words, love is an action word, etc."
> 
> Just trying to get you to see what others are saying about it and how you are switching back and forth from one concept to another. I'm not alien to that myself.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and bfree, I resemble those remarks.  I just don't tell people that stuff readily. Those I've exposed myself to know.
> 
> And, what's that saying about walking in another's shoes? We can't know what they truly think and feel or have done and why they did it.


My kids know because I do both. I tell them and I show them, but how does this relate to infidelity? Infidelity is no more a parental failing than any other activity that parents do . It MIGHT cause problems, IF you allow it to.


----------



## Nostromo

bfree said:


> Some friends and family forgave me, some didn't. And I don't blame them. But even the ones that forgave me never fully trust me again. I can see every now and then "the look." The side eyed look that tells me that something I'm doing reminds them of how I used to be. It will ALWAYS be there and it's my fault.


THIS right here, what you wrote is real accountability. It leaves no room for entitlement because it recognizes that forgiveness is a gift and not something that is owed to you by those you've hurt. It's been so long since I've seen somebody actually express it in words, that I was beginning to think people no longer believed in it. I'm glad to see that you do. So many people steamroll over other peoples lives with their selfish actions and then when they finally get 'better' they expect to be able to pick up right where they left off. 

It's almost like they expect the people they've hurt should just be thankful that they're no longer being 'punched in the face' but that's not how real life works. Our sins have a 'ripple effect' that sometimes even we can't see the full extent of and unfortunately there are times when no amount of amends will ever be enough. Many people refuse to see that when we are repaid for our evil deeds with scorn and contempt from those we've hurt we are actually receiving our 'just deserts'. Anything other than that is grace i.e freely given and unmerited favor.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Rookie4 said:


> I, too did lots of questionable things, and still do. But what I do, isn't a reflection on my parenting skills or my love for my kids. Neither was my wife's affair a reflection on hers. She was the best mother a kid could have , and I would go upside anyone's melon , who said otherwise. I didn't become a good parent by becoming Saint Rookie.


I thought it related to this, reasonably well. Don't you think it was following the path the thread was taking and you were allowing?


----------



## Rookie4

2ntnuf said:


> I thought it related to this, reasonably well. Don't you think it was following the path the thread was taking and you were allowing?


Well, actually it is something of a T/J, but I'm not too picky about it. A number of pages back, there were a lot of posts about infidelity and child care, and I tried to get the thread back on course, but I'm willing to allow a lot of leeway if it will get WS's to open up and also if it will get some BS's to interact with those WS's.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I guess we can relate it to cheating in a way that, "actions speak louder than words". When someone cheats, they show they have no respect for marriage, or in a WS' mind, at least that particular marriage/person. edited for better clarity. 

I guess BS' have told the same stories ad-nauseum, just as WS'? 

Someone who is a WS will easily understand another WS and likewise with BS'. 

Correcting how an individual responds to infidelity is a fool's errand. I'm not calling you a fool. I do think we all need to find our own truths. You can only know that once you have exhausted yourself in seeking the truth.

If/when I become a WS within the definition I have in my mind, I will be more able to understand. There are things that can change a person's mind about infidelity. The greatest one in my mind is vengeance. Now understand, that's my perspective. It's my individual conclusion from all I have read and experienced. That's because, there are other options. It's a choice, a decision. No one can change that fact, even when it doesn't necessarily feel as if it is a choice or decision at the time. 

Couples considering reconciliation will have the best chance when the BS goes out and lives their own secret life without getting caught. It does happen. It is vengeance. it is wrong in my mind. It's the quickest, easiest path to forgiveness, acceptance, and understanding. 

Until forgiveness, acceptance, and understanding are achieved, there will be little constructive communication. 

Hope that get's it back on track for you.


----------



## bfree

Deejo said:


> One that you have little control over. So? Do you jam down their throat that mommy was giving blow jobs to the handy man because you are hurt and bitter about it, or do you look to their well being and best interest instead?
> 
> I've stated in the past that if your teen or adult child wants to have that discussion, then you have it. But to force the concept of infidelity to kids who don't even know where babies come from, in my opinion that choice is every bit as wreckless as your partner choosing to betray in the first place.
> 
> If you want your kids to know that mommy is a cheating wh0re, or daddy can't keep his peck!r zipped up, whatever the result, outcome, or impact it has on your kids is just as much on you, as it is your cheating spouse.
> 
> Your job is to keep your children safe, not to use them as pawns in a game of brinkmanship as you dissolve or try to recover your failed marriage.
> 
> It's selfish and unnecessary, unless as I said, the cheating spouse has gone completely off the rails and their behavior threatens the safety of the kids.


I cannot control my wife, that is true. But I can control myself. I will NEVER EVER cheat. Not because I'm not capable but because I know the ramifications of that choice. I can also work hard on my marriage, never take my wife or my marriage for granted. Would I tell me children if my wife cheated? I can tell you that I would never lie to them, not even a lie of omission. That would truly jeopardize my relationship with my children because I guarantee someday they would find out and they would wonder why I never told them. And I would think I could find a better way of sharing that information than "mommy gave a blow job to the handy man." I somehow don't see that as being consistent with the theme of protecting the children. I have a question Deejo. Why can't one make a commitment not to cheat for the good of the kids and stick to it? Why can't the children be told the truth without blurting out that mommy is a wh0re? It seems to me that honor/honesty and the welfare of the children don't need to be on opposite ends of the equation.


----------



## Pluto2

Deejo said:


> One that you have little control over. So? Do you jam down their throat that mommy was giving blow jobs to the handy man because you are hurt and bitter about it, or do you look to their well being and best interest instead?
> 
> I've stated in the past that if your teen or adult child wants to have that discussion, then you have it. But to force the concept of infidelity to kids who don't even know where babies come from, in my opinion that choice is every bit as wreckless as your partner choosing to betray in the first place.
> 
> If you want your kids to know that mommy is a cheating wh0re, or daddy can't keep his peck!r zipped up, whatever the result, outcome, or impact it has on your kids is just as much on you, as it is your cheating spouse.
> 
> Your job is to keep your children safe, not to use them as pawns in a game of brinkmanship as you dissolve or try to recover your failed marriage.
> 
> It's selfish and unnecessary, unless as I said, the cheating spouse has gone completely off the rails and their behavior threatens the safety of the kids.


Deejo,
You seem to make the assumption that the only way kids learn of infidelity is by the BS telling them. Many WS, including mine, are so heartless and careless with their cheating that the kids find out on their own. One child got to read about it on FB, the other got to hear his pronouncements of love on the phone while he moved out. Some WS carry their deluded entitlement to "happiness" around with them, at the expense of their kids. My kids still have not heard me utter a harsh remark about their father, but they know what his infidelity did to our family. They know his behavior was unacceptable, and selfish.

This happened a couple of years ago, so I'm not a recently betrayed. So none of us can put everything in the same pile as others.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Bfree, you take risks with your kids , all of the time. All parents do, it's part of the equation. To single out infidelity as one of the main examples of bad parenting, is an excuse, not a factual representation.


What examples are you taking about vis-a-vis taking risks? If you're talking about letting them go to the corner store alone or camping without me there then I agree. But that is an example of personal growth isn't it? There is no personal growth when it comes to subjecting your children to an act of infidelity.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> What examples are you taking about vis-a-vis taking risks? If you're talking about letting them go to the corner store alone or camping without me there then I agree. But that is an example of personal growth isn't it? There is no personal growth when it comes to subjecting your children to an act of infidelity.


How do you subject your kids to an act of infidelity? Without somebody spilling the beans. Kids might be aware that their parents are fighting, true, but that could be because of many causes. It is only when one parent or the other tell them about it, that it becomes a parenting issue. Kids do not learn by osmosis.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



bfree said:


> I guess I'm talking more about the loss of innocence that occurs in this type of situation. I'm also thinking about the example your aunt set for her children by cheating and how it may play out in the future. Yes it is unquestionably better to leave an abusive relationship but also consideration must be given to HOW you leave that relationship. In their case they might have learned that valuable lesson but they might have also learned that it is okay to deceive and cheat if you feel the situation warrants such behavior. Maybe when they grow up and enter into a relationship they will look for another companion rather than try to work things out with their current partner? Unfortunately the sword does cut both ways does it not? In a way their close relationship gives me pause to consider that they fully accepted that what she did was acceptable and saw nothing wrong in her actions. Frankly that concerns me as it should you.


My cousins are 37 and 42 now. One has been married for almost 20 years (the younger one). The older one lost her husband years ago in a drowning accident and never remarried. Both were teen/preteen when their mother cheated. Neither ever cheated on their husbands. They both feel cheating is wrong. And they both, actually, they all FORGAVE her. Forgiveness does not mean condoning the actions. So, no, it does not concern me that they are so close. My aunt was my favorite aunt when I was a child, and still is my favorite. I do not condone her affair. But I do accept her husband as my uncle, as I did from the moment they became engaged.


----------



## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> Deejo,
> You seem to make the assumption that the only way kids learn of infidelity is by the BS telling them. Many WS, including mine, are so heartless and careless with their cheating that the kids find out on their own. One child got to read about it on FB, the other got to hear his pronouncements of love on the phone while he moved out. Some WS carry their deluded entitlement to "happiness" around with them, at the expense of their kids. My kids still have not heard me utter a harsh remark about their father, but they know what his infidelity did to our family. They know his behavior was unacceptable, and selfish.
> 
> This happened a couple of years ago, so I'm not a recently betrayed. So none of us can put everything in the same pile as others.


You allow your kids on facebook? Really? I would never allow this. 
Even with my wife's anger issues, we kept our arguments private. Fighting in front of the kids is far more harmful than infidelity that they aren't even supposed to be aware of. Parents should tell their children only those things that the kids need to know. The interaction of the parents are only marginally their business.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Many times, acceptance looks like forgiveness. I don't think it is possible for a human to truly forgive in the purest sense. We can come pretty close.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> You allow your kids on facebook? Really? I would never allow this.
> Even with my wife's anger issues, we kept our arguments private. Fighting in front of the kids is far more harmful than infidelity that they aren't even supposed to be aware of.


Mine are on Facebook, and I monitor them. I have access to the accounts so can read even things they may try to hide from me.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



2ntnuf said:


> Many times, acceptance looks like forgiveness. I don't think it is possible for a human to truly forgive in the purest sense. We can come pretty close.


If you mean this as in humans are unable to forgive on the level that God does, I absolutely agree. But if you mean it to imply that we are incapable of forgiveness at all, I disagree. We may be limited in our understanding, but it is not impossible for us to forgive. And suggesting that our forgiving one who has wronged us in any way is merely acceptance is actually insulting.


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> You allow your kids on facebook? Really? I would never allow this.
> Even with my wife's anger issues, we kept our arguments private. Fighting in front of the kids is far more harmful than infidelity that they aren't even supposed to be aware of. Parents should tell their children only those things that the kids need to know. The interaction of the parents are only marginally their business.


That's what you took from my post. OK.
Yes. I allow my 14 yr on FB. When all your family is far away it was and is, a good way for cousins to stay in touch. My allowing my DD access to FB is not what harmed them-my ex's infidelity did. My kids got to hear lots of inappropriate communications from my ex. I agree they aren't "supposed to be aware" of lots of things. But when it came down to it, I had no control over what my ex did or said. I could not shield my children from their father's selfishness. Nor do I have any control over his unwillingness to be a part of their lives today.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> How do you subject your kids to an act of infidelity? Without somebody spilling the beans. Kids might be aware that their parents are fighting, true, but that could be because of many causes. It is only when one parent or the other tell them about it, that it becomes a parenting issue. Kids do not learn by osmosis.


Spilling the beans? Did you really just say that? Is it more or less likely that a child will discover a parent's infidelity at some point during their lifetime? As for the rest, I can name many aspects of infidelity that impact the children whether they are aware of it or not. And I would consider all of them parenting issues.

Osmosis - a subtle or gradual absorption or mingling

You don't see how children can learn from their parents through osmosis?


----------



## bfree

2ntnuf said:


> Many times, acceptance looks like forgiveness. I don't think it is possible for a human to truly forgive in the purest sense. We can come pretty close.


I achieved acceptance with my exW because that is as far as I allowed myself to go. But had she been remorseful I would have forgiven her.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Maricha75 said:


> If you mean this as in humans are unable to forgive on the level that God does, I absolutely agree. But if you mean it to imply that we are incapable of forgiveness at all, I disagree. We may be limited in our understanding, but it is not impossible for us to forgive. And suggesting that our forgiving one who has wronged us in any way is merely acceptance is actually insulting.


It's only insulting until you understand what true forgiveness and human frailty are. Then, it's much more acceptable and can be moved on from. I think anything less than forgetting the infraction and starting again as if new, is not forgiving in it's purest sense. It is acceptance that we as humans, have imperfections. It is awareness of the imperfections and a new vigilance must take place and be continued throughout, until we forget, if ever. I don't think it's good to forget those weaknesses. It is an acceptance of ourselves being less than perfect and knowingly accepting others weaknesses. I think forgiveness is a bit of a misnomer. 

When I say the purest sense, I mean forgiving in the deepest sense I know, which would be a religious sense. I like to think of definitions in their purest sense because they are then less apt to vary among individuals.


----------



## bfree

Maricha75 said:


> My cousins are 37 and 42 now. One has been married for almost 20 years (the younger one). The older one lost her husband years ago in a drowning accident and never remarried. Both were teen/preteen when their mother cheated. Neither ever cheated on their husbands. They both feel cheating is wrong. And they both, actually, they all FORGAVE her. Forgiveness does not mean condoning the actions. So, no, it does not concern me that they are so close. My aunt was my favorite aunt when I was a child, and still is my favorite. I do not condone her affair. But I do accept her husband as my uncle, as I did from the moment they became engaged.


I'm glad that their mother's cheating did not outwardly adversely affect your cousins. I'm guessing that it may be because forgiveness and understanding was achieved between all the parties involved. But in many cases that does not occur and the children are negatively affected. Its just something that the cheater doesn't usually consider when they are stepping out on their family.


----------



## 2ntnuf

bfree said:


> I achieved acceptance with my exW because that is as far as I allowed myself to go. But had she been remorseful I would have forgiven her.


I am listening, but I don't really hear you. 

I mean, well, maybe my previous post will make it more clear. 

I think when people think of forgiveness, they think it means you will not try to exact revenge on the person who offended. I don't take that to be necessarily forgiveness. I take that to be acceptance of who they are. They are not perfect and neither am I. 

Do I think that means a person would not warn others of what happened with them? No. I don't call that revenge. I call that truth and a sort of love for fellow man. I don't want anyone else to go through what I went through. Maybe she changed and will never do it again, but it's unlikely. I just think they get better and more cold to real faith, hope and love. Another set of things humans can never achieve in their purest sense.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Spilling the beans? Did you really just say that? Is it more or less likely that a child will discover a parent's infidelity at some point during their lifetime? As for the rest, I can name many aspects of infidelity that impact the children whether they are aware of it or not. And I would consider all of them parenting issues.
> 
> Osmosis - a subtle or gradual absorption or mingling
> 
> You don't see how children can learn from their parents through osmosis?


I knew a woman who abused prescription drugs. she did this for years, and nobody knew it until her kids were grown and out of the house. Perhaps at some point kids will learn about a parents infidelity, but in most cases this is not a given, by any means. Unless you believe that the kids are smarter than the BS.. If a cheater can fool a spouse, do you really think they will have a hard time fooling a pre-teen? The pint I'm trying to make is that there are LOTS of kids who have cheaters for parents and grow up quite normally, unless the affair is discovered by somebody. The correlation between infidelity and bad parenting is not and cannot be proven. Your websites to the contrary, are only opinion.
A cheater is guilty of cheating, but might or might not be guilty of anything else. I know that some BS's want to blame the WS for everything bad that happens in the marriage and pretty much everywhere else, but this isn't true.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By DeeJo*
> infidelity plays *absolutely no role* in what kind of parent you are.


*Disagree with the “…absolutely no role”*

When my daughter found out that her mother committed infidelity she moved out of the house to be away from her and said her world was shaken and her security and emotions were damaged because of the affair. It took her years to get bonded back to her mother. The other children had other negative emotions and reactions.

My wife was not a good parent during that time she choose to betray the children’s father, the family structure, and damage the children’s security and emotions.

I do not need a PhD or an internet poster to tell me the reality of how a parent’s infidelity affects children; I saw it in living color! My wife was a parent that hurt her children during that time of betrayal.

As I have stated before, this damage can be rectified and in my case my wife did rectify her damaging parenting that hurt the children. My wife stood up, dedicated herself to the family for years and now she has a very close relationship with our children.

My view is that a person can make a horrible selfish choice that hurts the children but then rectify that by changing their ways and proving that by their words and actions. My wife is now a good mother and she is now a source of strength by showing that you can recover from infidelity. This is encouraging because I, and my guess is that many other BSs on this forum, will need that encouraging when we do something selfish that hurts others; we can also recover and become good parents and people. 

Infidelity does play a role in what kind of parent you are; one that hurts the children, but positive actions by the parent can rectify the hurt and even become a source of strength that produces strong bonds with the children.

*I understand that it is very hard to accept that a parent may hurt their children but the truth will set you free and the truth is that it is very possible to be forgiven and restored!*


----------



## Rookie4

Mr Blunt said:


> *Disagree with the “…absolutely no role”*
> 
> When my daughter found out that her mother committed infidelity she moved out of the house to be away from her and said her world was shaken and her security and emotions were damaged because of the affair. It took her years to get bonded back to her mother. The other children had other negative emotions and reactions.
> 
> My wife was not a good parent during that time she choose to betray the children’s father, the family structure, and damage the children’s security and emotions.
> 
> I do not need a PhD or an internet poster to tell me the reality of how a parent’s infidelity affects children; I saw it in living color! My wife was a parent that hurt her children during that time of betrayal.
> 
> As I have stated before, this damage can be rectified and in my case my wife did rectify her damaging parenting that hurt the children. My wife stood up, dedicated herself to the family for years and now she has a very close relationship with our children.
> 
> My view is that a person can make a horrible selfish choice that hurts the children but then rectify that by changing their ways and proving that by their words and actions. My wife is now a good mother and she is now a source of strength by showing that you can recover from infidelity. This is encouraging because I, and my guess is that many other BSs on this forum, will need that encouraging when we do something selfish that hurts others; we can also recover and become good parents and people.
> 
> Infidelity does play a role in what kind of parent you are; one that hurts the children, but positive actions by the parent can rectify the hurt and even become a source of strength that produces strong bonds with the children.
> 
> *I understand that it is very hard to accept that a parent may hurt their children but the truth will set you free and the truth is that it is very possible to be forgiven and restored!*


Because this happened to you, Blunt, does not make it a universal truth. I would like to know in what way your wife's affair made her a bad parent. What specifically did she do to her children? Did it make her a bad spouse or parent? Not the same thing.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

My mother cheated on my father. We of course knew nothing about it until she abandoned us and it all came to light. My father died a few years after that. He was heartbroken and drank himself to death.

So it wasn't the actual ACT of cheating that destroyed our lives, but the subsequent after effects of it. There were horrible consequences from the betrayal both immediately and long term, that hurt us in unbelievable ways. 

To this very day, we all, but particularly my younger brother and sister, suffer from the after affects of our mother's cheating, even though the actual act of betrayal was committed many, many years ago.

Strange that the theme of betrayal was played out over and over again in my life until I realised the gift it had to give me.

Not for my brother and sister though, even though the theme has replayed itself out again in their lives also, they haven't been able to appreciate the mystery, nor the realisations the understanding of that mystery could have brought to their own suffering.

I empathise. I know where they are with it and just love them as much as I can.


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## FalconKing

Rookie4 said:


> *Because this happened to you, Blunt, does not make it a universal truth.* I would like to know in what way your wife's affair made her a bad parent. What specifically did she do to her children? Did it make her a bad spouse or parent? Not the same thing.


Look who's talking??

I kid I kid...:yawn2:


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## Rookie4

Nobody is saying that some people aren't BOTH a bad parent AND a cheater. But the one doesn't imply the other. I was a terrible basketball player, but that doesn't imply that I was bad at the other sports. In fact, I was very good at football and baseball and boxing.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> Disagree with the “…absolutely no role”
> 
> When my daughter found out that her mother committed infidelity she moved out of the house to be away from her and said her world was shaken and her security and emotions were damaged because of the affair. It took her years to get bonded back to her mother. The other children had other negative emotions and reactions.
> 
> My wife was not a good parent during that time she choose to betray the children’s father, the family structure, and damage the children’s security and emotions.
> 
> I do not need a PhD or an internet poster to tell me the reality of how a parent’s infidelity affects children; I saw it in living color! My wife was a parent that hurt her children during that time of betrayal.
> 
> As I have stated before, this damage can be rectified and in my case my wife did rectify her damaging parenting that hurt the children. My wife stood up, dedicated herself to the family for years and now she has a very close relationship with our children.
> 
> My view is that a person can make a horrible selfish choice that hurts the children but then rectify that by changing their ways and proving that by their words and actions. My wife is now a good mother and she is now a source of strength by showing that you can recover from infidelity. This is encouraging because I, and my guess is that many other BSs on this forum, will need that encouraging when we do something selfish that hurts others; we can also recover and become good parents and people.
> 
> Infidelity does play a role in what kind of parent you are; one that hurts the children, but positive actions by the parent can rectify the hurt and even become a source of strength that produces strong bonds with the children.
> 
> *I understand that it is very hard to accept that a parent may hurt their children but the truth will set you free and the truth is that it is very possible to be forgiven and restored!*
> 
> 
> *By Rookie*
> Because this happened to you, Blunt, does not make it a universal truth. I would like to know in what way your wife's affair made her a bad parent. What specifically did she do to her children? Did it make her a bad spouse or parent? Not the same thing.





Rookie
I never said that what happened to me is a universal truth so that is somewhat irrelevant to the main issue. The main issue here is that I disagreed with the statement of “.absolutely no role”



> By DeeJo
> infidelity plays absolutely no role in what kind of parent you are.



I gave my actual experience and explained in what way she was a bad parent. Here it is again reprinted below:




> When my daughter found out that her mother committed infidelity she moved out of the house to be away from her and said her world was shaken and her security and emotions were damaged because of the affair. It took her years to get bonded back to her mother. The other children had other negative emotions and reactions.


*By the way the damaged security and emotions was my daughter’s words not mine.*

Here below is a reprint of another grown child telling about the suffering of the parent’s infidelity



> *By BetrayedAgain7*
> To this very day, we all, but particularly my younger brother and sister, suffer from the after affects of our mother's cheating, even though the actual act of betrayal was committed many, many years ago.


Rookie, I do not know if you need a more clear testimony than what these children have srated, but I am not going to spend too much time trying to convince you that my daughter and BetrayedAgain7 are telling the truth. If you want to believe that “infidelity plays absolutely no role in what kind of parent you are.” then be my guest. I know what happened to our family and I bet that BetraydAgain7 does also.


My post and BetrayedAgain7 seems to be clear. Are you insinuating that we are not clear and do you have another agenda in your post? I ask this because of your question of “I would like to know in what way your wife's affair made her a bad parent.”

My daughter’s words below answered that clearly in my last post 



> “…said her world was shaken and her security and emotions were damaged because of the affair”


Why would you ask a question that was already answered?


----------



## Jung_admirer

Rookie4 said:


> Nobody is saying that some people aren't BOTH a bad parent AND a cheater. But the one doesn't imply the other. I was a terrible basketball player, but that doesn't imply that I was bad at the other sports. In fact, I was very good at football and baseball and boxing.


I agree with you that the physical act of cheating need not impair one's ability to parent. The primary parental responsiblity is to love and nurture one's children. In the relationship between parent and child, conscious and unconscious emotional transference is continuous. There is no way for a WS to avoid transferring a portion of the character that led to the EA/PA. Our character, good parts & bad, is part of every significant relationship. Let me add that both the BS & WS pass on good & bad character traits. This is why is it so important to take ownership of own psychological health.

In effect, cheating is not a problem in parenting ... poor character is.


----------



## missthelove2013

Jung_admirer said:


> I agree with you that the physical act of cheating need not impair one's ability to parent. The primary parental responsiblity is to love and nurture one's children. In the relationship between parent and child, conscious and unconscious emotional transference is continuous. There is no way for a WS to avoid transferring a portion of the character that led to the EA/PA. Our character, good parts & bad, is part of every significant relationship. Let me add that both the BS & WS pass on good & bad character traits. This is why is it so important to take ownership of own psychological health.
> 
> In effect, cheating is not a problem in parenting ... poor character is.


exactly...the physical act of spreading your legs for another is NOT the issue...it is an indicator of where the ws's priorities are...and these priorities have NOTHING to do with their kids...they know damned well they are hurting or going to hurt their kids so they justify it and essentially put their kids third instead of first, behind the om/ow and their crotch


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Jung_admirer said:


> I agree with you that the physical act of cheating need not impair one's ability to parent. The primary parental responsibility is to love and nurture one's children. In the relationship between parent and child, conscious and unconscious emotional transference is continuous. There is no way for a WS to avoid transferring a portion of the character that led to the EA/PA. Our character, good parts & bad, is part of every significant relationship. Let me add that both the BS & WS pass on good & bad character traits. This is why is it so important to take ownership of own psychological health.
> 
> In effect, cheating is not a problem in parenting ... poor character is.


Guess that completely blows apart the theory that children do not learn by osmosis.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> Nobody is saying that some people aren't BOTH a bad parent AND a cheater. But the one doesn't imply the other. I was a terrible basketball player, but that doesn't imply that I was bad at the other sports. In fact, I was very good at football and baseball and boxing.


I disagree. I maintain that the very act of indulging in such a selfish act like infidelity precludes you from being the parent you could be if you weren't cheating. You simply cannot divide your time, your attention, your emotional involvement with that many people without taking away from your children. To carry your analogy further, how good at football and baseball would you be if you got injured or devoted an inordinate about of time to your basketball endeavors?


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> Nobody is saying that some people aren't BOTH a bad parent AND a cheater. But the one doesn't imply the other. I was a terrible basketball player, but that doesn't imply that I was bad at the other sports. In fact, I was very good at football and baseball and boxing.


I don't understand your adherence to this compartmental type of thought process. Sure there are lots of things about being a good spouse that don't directly impact the children, but you seem pretty adamant that the two roles are completely separate and in my opinion, that just isn't accurate. 

Before the last round of A's, my ex was an involved parent. He went to the teacher-conferences, kids games, band concerts. When his last round of A's started, most of that traditional parenting activity ended. I was left to try to explain to the kids why dad didn't come to the game (I found out later he used those times to sext one of his skanks). I believed at the time, it was because of his depression. I found out later, he lied about much of that, as well.

So when my ex was using our family time to contact the OW, he was not being a good parent-
When my ex used marital funds on the A's, he was not being a good parent-
When my ex moved out and announced to his children he was going out of state because there was nothing for him here-he was not being a good parent.
When my ex chooses not to make an effort to reconnect with the kids because he is unable to take responsibility for his actions-he is not being a good parent.

Now I have two daughters who struggle at various times with betrayal and abandonment issues. I work my butt off to give them all the security and reinforcements I can. Is my experience the same as every other BS, of course not. But I have a hunch it happens more than you want to admit. I'm glad it wasn't your experience.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Deejo said:


> One that you have little control over. So? Do you jam down their throat that mommy was giving blow jobs to the handy man because you are hurt and bitter about it, or do you look to their well being and best interest instead?
> 
> I've stated in the past that if your teen or adult child wants to have that discussion, then you have it. But to force the concept of infidelity to kids who don't even know where babies come from, in my opinion that choice is every bit as wreckless as your partner choosing to betray in the first place.
> 
> If you want your kids to know that mommy is a cheating wh0re, or daddy can't keep his peck!r zipped up, whatever the result, outcome, or impact it has on your kids is just as much on you, as it is your cheating spouse.
> 
> Your job is to keep your children safe, not to use them as pawns in a game of brinkmanship as you dissolve or try to recover your failed marriage.
> 
> It's selfish and unnecessary, unless as I said, the cheating spouse has gone completely off the rails and their behavior threatens the safety of the kids.


This is something that I really agree with. Every situation is different of course but betrayed spouses that are unable or unwilling to move on can in some cases do more damage. Kids for the most part love both parents unconditionally. Most will still want a relationship with both parents no matter what they do. I've seen a lot of BS's wage a nasty psychological war on their kids and WS simply out of spite. It happens all the time.


----------



## Rookie4

Mr Blunt said:


> Rookie
> I never said that what happened to me is a universal truth so that is somewhat irrelevant to the main issue. The main issue here is that I disagreed with the statement of “.absolutely no role”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I gave my actual experience and explained in what way she was a bad parent. Here it is again reprinted below:
> What you are saying is that your daughter did not like her Mom cheating. I get that. Many kids disapprove of their parents behavior. This isn't even near proof that your wife was a bad parent. That is what I'm trying to get at. That is why I asked you for specific examples of HOW your wife was a bad parent. You continue to avoid the question, so I can only assume that you don't have any specific examples. That's OK.
> 
> 
> 
> *By the way the damaged security and emotions was my daughter’s words not mine.*
> 
> Here below is a reprint of another grown child telling about the suffering of the parent’s infidelity
> 
> 
> 
> Rookie, I do not know if you need a more clear testimony than what these children have srated, but I am not going to spend too much time trying to convince you that my daughter and BetrayedAgain7 are telling the truth. If you want to believe that “infidelity plays absolutely no role in what kind of parent you are.” then be my guest. I know what happened to our family and I bet that BetraydAgain7 does also.
> 
> 
> My post and BetrayedAgain7 seems to be clear. Are you insinuating that we are not clear and do you have another agenda in your post? I ask this because of your question of “I would like to know in what way your wife's affair made her a bad parent.”
> 
> My daughter’s words below answered that clearly in my last post
> 
> 
> Why would you ask a question that was already answered?


----------



## Rookie4

Jung_admirer said:


> I agree with you that the physical act of cheating need not impair one's ability to parent. The primary parental responsiblity is to love and nurture one's children. In the relationship between parent and child, conscious and unconscious emotional transference is continuous. There is no way for a WS to avoid transferring a portion of the character that led to the EA/PA. Our character, good parts & bad, is part of every significant relationship. Let me add that both the BS & WS pass on good & bad character traits. This is why is it so important to take ownership of own psychological health.
> 
> In effect, cheating is not a problem in parenting ... poor character is.


I agree with your last paragraph. Poor character causes bad parenting, not adultery , per se.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> I disagree. I maintain that the very act of indulging in such a selfish act like infidelity precludes you from being the parent you could be if you weren't cheating. You simply cannot divide your time, your attention, your emotional involvement with that many people without taking away from your children. To carry your analogy further, how good at football and baseball would you be if you got injured or devoted an inordinate about of time to your basketball endeavors?


This isn't true and you know it. People can give an infinite amount of attention to an infinite number of other people. So by your reasoning, a woman who has only one child is a better parent than a woman with three, because she can devote all of her time to her only child , but the woman with three has to spread the love around? Bull.
In many cultures, multiple partners are the rule rather than the exception, so all of these other cultures are bad parents?


----------



## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> I don't understand your adherence to this compartmental type of thought process. Sure there are lots of things about being a good spouse that don't directly impact the children, but you seem pretty adamant that the two roles are completely separate and in my opinion, that just isn't accurate.
> 
> Before the last round of A's, my ex was an involved parent. He went to the teacher-conferences, kids games, band concerts. When his last round of A's started, most of that traditional parenting activity ended. I was left to try to explain to the kids why dad didn't come to the game (I found out later he used those times to sext one of his skanks). I believed at the time, it was because of his depression. I found out later, he lied about much of that, as well.
> 
> So when my ex was using our family time to contact the OW, he was not being a good parent-
> When my ex used marital funds on the A's, he was not being a good parent-
> When my ex moved out and announced to his children he was going out of state because there was nothing for him here-he was not being a good parent.
> When my ex chooses not to make an effort to reconnect with the kids because he is unable to take responsibility for his actions-he is not being a good parent.
> 
> Now I have two daughters who struggle at various times with betrayal and abandonment issues. I work my butt off to give them all the security and reinforcements I can. Is my experience the same as every other BS, of course not. But I have a hunch it happens more than you want to admit. I'm glad it wasn't your experience.


RE-read my post. It is very possible to be BOTH a bad parent and a cheater. It is also possible to be a GOOD parent and a cheater. The two are not mutually exclusive. The key issues is NOT infidelity, it is poor character. The same thing about Drinking and parenting, or any other activity that a parent does.


----------



## cpacan

I think we're getting closer and closer to the goal of the thread; making it safe for lurking waywards to post. 

Infidelity really isn't THAT bad and only weak and bitter betrayed spouses insist on the opposite. And not only is it because of BS actions that a WS stray, it's also betrayed weirdos who cause the children to be affected just because they can't keep their mouth shut.

There's no doubt support for everyone, I believe. I think the environment is pretty safe and secure now


----------



## Rookie4

The thing is, that most posters while trying to prove that their cheating spouse was a bad parent, are only using evidence of what makes them bad spouses. I would like to see evidence of bad parenting, not opinions of bad spouses. We already KNOW that they are bad spouses.


----------



## Wolf1974

Funny to me how when I commented to someone else earlier in the thread about adultry affecting kids I was told to get out but guess it's ok now since the OP is doing it.

And I disgaree. When you cheat you put your marriage in danger for your own personal wants. Just cause you may get away with it and never get caught doesn't make it ok. And if discovered it can often lead to divorce. And since divorce hurts kids as they are part of the family it's a pretty silly argument.


----------



## Rookie4

cpacan said:


> I think we're getting closer and closer to the goal of the thread; making it safe for lurking waywards to post.
> 
> Infidelity really isn't THAT bad and only weak and bitter betrayed spouses insist on the opposite. And not only is it because of BS actions that a WS stray, it's also betrayed weirdos who cause the children to be affected just because they can't keep their mouth shut.
> 
> There's no doubt support for everyone, I believe. I think the environment is pretty safe and secure now


Nobody has said ANY of this. You are projecting your own drama. I did not bring up the subject, but if somebody is going to make such accusations about adultery and parenting, they need to prove their point with evidence, not conjecture . So you have made some accusations, prove them.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Rookie4 said:


> The thing is, that most posters while trying to prove that their cheating spouse was a bad parent, are only using evidence of what makes them bad spouses. I would like to see evidence of bad parenting, not opinions of bad spouses. We already KNOW that they are bad spouses.


This is my thought also. I'm not planning on ever getting divorced, but if it did happen I would still be a father. I just wouldn't be married anymore.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf, is right. I am trying to allow everybody their say, and not worry too much about threadjacking. I don't really want to discuss this issue and have asked that it be taken to a thread of it's own. I guess I'm too polite.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> The thing is, that most posters while trying to prove that their cheating spouse was a bad parent, are only using evidence of what makes them bad spouses. I would like to see evidence of bad parenting, not opinions of bad spouses. We already KNOW that they are bad spouses.


Did your wife take any time, money, attention etc. that could have been spent on the children and devote it to herself and her lover? Did she spend money going out to dinner and drinks with him instead of buying the kids something? Did she take time that could have been spent with the children and give it to her affair? Did she go on her phone and text her AP when she was home with the children?


----------



## michzz

my ex-wife would leave our daughter at the daycare so late that they would fine us for being over the time and we're going to toss us out.

So our poor daughter was held hostage for hours and hours while she was off banging the jerk.

Yeah, infidelity affects the kids and our finances.

The ex was supposed to be a realtor with actual clients and transactions.

She was supposed to go to sporting events and Girl Scouts.

Guess what? 

I went 90% solo.

poor parenting can go hand in hand with cheating.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Did your wife take any time, money, attention etc. that could have been spent on the children and devote it to herself and her lover? Did she spend money going out to dinner and drinks with him instead of buying the kids something? Did she take time that could have been spent with the children and give it to her affair? Did she go on her phone and text her AP when she was home with the children?


You are still giving your opinion, and not evidence. In what way did your wife neglect her kids, and what has texting to do with anything? She probably texted a lot more people than just her AP, didn't she? Did she go meet her AP and abandon the kids? Is a good parent one who spends all of their time and money on the kids, alone? See where I'm going with this?
My wife's affair took place after my kids went to college, so my situation is vastly different. What I'm interested in is concrete examples of bad parenting by cheaters, and how they are related. So far, nobody has given me any.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Pluto2 said:


> Deejo,
> You seem to make the assumption that the only way kids learn of infidelity is by the BS telling them. Many WS, including mine, are so heartless and careless with their cheating that the kids find out on their own. One child got to read about it on FB, the other got to hear his pronouncements of love on the phone while he moved out. Some WS carry their deluded entitlement to "happiness" around with them, at the expense of their kids. My kids still have not heard me utter a harsh remark about their father, but they know what his infidelity did to our family. They know his behavior was unacceptable, and selfish.
> 
> This happened a couple of years ago, so I'm not a recently betrayed. So none of us can put everything in the same pile as others.


I could have chosen better wording. 

I based my statement off of my own experience when my mother's infidelity was discovered. And the awareness of so many other instances of infidelity and children, including my own as a divorced adult.

My mother never stopped being an excellent parent. Same could be said of my ex.

Just seems some folks are eager to paint cheaters with a very broad negative brush.

And it doesn't always apply.


----------



## Rookie4

michzz said:


> my ex-wife would leave our daughter at the daycare so late that they would fine us for being over the time and we're going to toss us out.
> 
> So our poor daughter was held hostage for hours and hours while she was off banging the jerk.
> 
> Yeah, infidelity affects the kids and our finances.
> 
> The ex was supposed to be a realtor with actual clients and transactions.
> 
> She was supposed to go to sporting events and Girl Scouts.
> 
> Guess what?
> 
> I went 90% solo.
> 
> poor parenting can go hand in hand with cheating.


Thank you, Mich. At last some specific examples of bad parenting.


----------



## cpacan

Wolf1974 said:


> Funny to me how when I commented to someone else earlier in the thread about adultry affecting kids I was told to get out but guess it's ok now since the OP is doing it.
> 
> And I disgaree. When you cheat you put your marriage in danger for your own personal wants. Just cause you may get away with it and never get caught doesn't make it ok. And if discovered it can often lead to divorce. And since divorce hurts kids as they are part of the family it's a pretty silly argument.


Yes, but the logic is, that in many cases, it's the BS who choose divorce post infidelity, thus it's the BS who is affecting the kids negatively and thereby being a bad parent. U C?


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> RE-read my post. It is very possible to be BOTH a bad parent and a cheater. It is also possible to be a GOOD parent and a cheater. The two are not mutually exclusive. The key issues is NOT infidelity, it is poor character. The same thing about Drinking and parenting, or any other activity that a parent does.


I provided you with evidence of bad parenting, but you reject it.
Lying to your children is being a bad parent, not a bad spouse
Neglecting a child's activities and education is being a bad parent, not a bad spouse.
Choosing OW over your child is being a bad parent and a bad spouse.

Maybe you can be a bad parent, and a fairly good spouse... maybe. Although I think foisting all the parental responsibility on to one party is not being a supportive spouse. So I change my mind on that, too. Bad parent-bad spouse. 
Really though, when you marry and have children are you not a group or unit that is to work together for the betterment, love and support of all? I see the "family" as a living entity. Maybe that's why I have such a hard time with your compartmentalization of infidelity.


----------



## Pluto2

cpacan said:


> Yes, but the logic is, that in many cases, it's the BS who choose divorce post infidelity, thus it's the BS who is affecting the kids negatively and thereby being a bad parent. U C?


Wow, contorted logic here.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> You are still giving your opinion, and not evidence. In what way did your wife neglect her kids, and what has texting to do with anything? She probably texted a lot more people than just her AP, didn't she? Did she go meet her AP and abandon the kids? Is a good parent one who spends all of their time and money on the kids, alone? See where I'm going with this?
> My wife's affair took place after my kids went to college, so my situation is vastly different. What I'm interested in is concrete examples of bad parenting by cheaters, and how they are related. So far, nobody has given me any.


I had no children with my exW but I have worked with many couples and have not seen one time when infidelity has not affected the children negatively in some way. Frankly I find your attitude on this subject troubling. You're adopting the same rationalization crap that cheaters use to justify their infidelity. "Well if he/she doesn't know it isn't hurting them." Sorry, that's horse hockey.


----------



## convert

michzz said:


> my ex-wife would leave our daughter at the daycare so late that they would fine us for being over the time and we're going to toss us out.
> 
> So our poor daughter was held hostage for hours and hours while she was off banging the jerk.
> 
> Yeah, infidelity affects the kids and our finances.
> 
> The ex was supposed to be a realtor with actual clients and transactions.
> 
> She was supposed to go to sporting events and Girl Scouts.
> 
> Guess what?
> 
> I went 90% solo.
> 
> poor parenting can go hand in hand with cheating.


I was away at a conference for 4 days when son was in school ww was supposed to pick him up....she forgot.

she said she was with one of her girl friends turns out she was with om.

school finally got hold of my parents who lived an 50 min away.
I think my mom had more hatred for that then her cheating


----------



## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> I provided you with evidence of bad parenting, but you reject it.
> Lying to your children is being a bad parent, not a bad spouse
> Neglecting a child's activities and education is being a bad parent, not a bad spouse.
> Choosing OW over your child is being a bad parent and a bad spouse.
> 
> Maybe you can be a bad parent, and a fairly good spouse... maybe. Although I think foisting all the parental responsibility on to one party is not being a supportive spouse. So I change my mind on that, too. Bad parent-bad spouse.
> Really though, when you marry and have children are you not a group or unit that is to work together for the betterment, love and support of all? I see the "family" as a living entity. Maybe that's why I have such a hard time with your compartmentalization of infidelity.


So you are saying that only cheaters lie to their kids? If lying is your criteria, then every parent is a bad parent. I have never known a single example of a parent that told the absolute truth to their kids, all of the time. 
Choosing the AP over the kids, is bad, but how do you Know, and more importantly how do the kids know? Who told them,? 
The only piece of concrete evidence you have presented is about neglecting the kids activities, and pretty much every parent who works away from the home is guilty of it.


----------



## Rookie4

convert said:


> I was away at a conference for 4 days when son was in school ww was supposed to pick him up....she forgot.
> 
> she said she was with one of her girl friends turns out she was with om.
> 
> school finally got hold of my parents who lived an 50 min away.
> I think my mom had more hatred for that then her cheating


This is an example of a bad parent. But , more importantly, it is an example of poor character.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> I had no children with my exW but I have worked with many couples and have not seen one time when infidelity has not affected the children negatively in some way. Frankly I find your attitude on this subject troubling. You're adopting the same rationalization crap that cheaters use to justify their infidelity. "Well if he/she doesn't know it isn't hurting them." Sorry, that's horse hockey.


Bfree, I am not disagreeing with a single thing you say, I'm only asking you to prove what you say, by evidence. You, nor anybody else, have proven a correlation between adultery and bad parenting. So you find asking for proof , troubling? Sorry, I'm a hard head, I don't believe everything somebody tells me, just because they said it.


----------



## michzz

I gave specific examples of my cheating ex-wife's bad parenting so she could go screw someone else on the sly.

She made no real estate transactions for a lot of those years she cheated.

So the "extra" money she wAs supposed to make didn't materialize. This meant her cheating resulted in a big hit to family finances. College funding for the kids didn't happen. So our kids had to take out loans.

Countless hours away from the kids too.

And once the affair was revealed when the kids were 18 and 21? They connected the dots and were very hurt by what their mother did to them while betraying our wedding vows.

Our daughter in particular was so offended that she refused to take any motherly "advice" from her anymore since she had no credibility.


----------



## Rookie4

Just to put this to bed.
As some of you know, I used to be a modified stockcar driver. I knew another driver who was married and had kids. He went to races all over the south, leaving his kids and wife at home. Sometimes he would not get home for a couple of months. His wife did almost ALL of the parenting. She fed, cleaned, and nurtured her kids and attended their activities, and also worked a full-time job. He didn't even know their birthdays. She finally got sick of having a husband who wasn't there, most of the time, and met another man.
The blame for cheating was hers, we all agree with that. But who was the better parent?


----------



## Rookie4

michzz said:


> I gave specific examples of my cheating ex-wife's bad parenting so she could go screw someone else on the sly.
> 
> She made no real estate transactions for a lot of those years she cheated.
> 
> So the "extra" money she wAs supposed to make didn't materialize. This meant her cheating resulted in a big hit to family finances. College funding for the kids didn't happen. So our kids had to take out loans.
> 
> Countless hours away from the kids too.
> 
> And once the affair was revealed when the kids were 18 and 21? They connected the dots and were very hurt by what their mother did to them while betraying our wedding vows.
> 
> Our daughter in particular was so offended that she refused to take any motherly "advice" from her anymore since she had no credibility.


This is a perfect example of a bad parent and bad spouse. Thanks again, Mich.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Bfree, I am not disagreeing with a single thing you say, I'm only asking you to prove what you say, by evidence. You, nor anybody else, have proven a correlation between adultery and bad parenting. So you find asking for proof , troubling? Sorry, I'm a hard head, I don't believe everything somebody tells me, just because they said it.


You have already received numerous specific examples from other posters but you keep beating the same drum hoping to hear a flute. I have already posted two different articles on how children are adversely affected by a parent's infidelity. For your edification I will post another from Dr. Harley.

Infidelity: The Lessons Children Learn

_When a parent has an affair what lessons are being taught to the children? What rules of life are being learned?
Julie was a happy-go-lucky eight-year old. She was at the top of her 3rd grade class, loved playing with her friends, riding her bike, and drawing. Her parents loved her and she loved them.

One day after school mom introduced Julie to two girls who were close to Julie's age. Mom said that she was taking care of them for a friend named Josh. Julie enjoyed playing with the girls and looked forward to them coming again.

In fact they would come over quite often with their dad. But it was only when Julie's dad was out of town. Sometimes Josh stayed late -- long after Julie had gone to sleep.

One day dad came home from his trip. As he was hugging Julie he asked, "How is my princess? What did you do while I was away?" Julie started telling him about the new puppy that "Uncle Josh" brought to the house. Dad knew that mom had been helping someone with child care, but when he heard it was "Uncle Josh" he became a little suspicious.

"How often do you see Uncle Josh?" he asked. With a smile Julie said, "Oh, he comes over every day to help mom when you're gone." Mom looked at Julie with a stern face. But Julie didn't understand why she was becoming upset. Her dad started asking her mom questions and their voices became louder and louder. Julie was sent to her room.

As Julie listened outside, her door she heard her mom say, "Josh is just a friend. Aren't I allowed to have friends. Why do you have to be so jealous? Don't you trust me?" Julie finally heard her mom say that she would never see Josh again if that's what her dad really wanted.

After a couple days, mom and dad started talking to each other and mom and dad seemed happy again. They all returned to their routine of life and Julie started to forget about that horrible night.

But the next time dad went on a trip, mom did not keep her promise. She told Julie that the babysitter will be taking care of her that night. But mom wouldn't tell Julie where she was going. As mom left the house she saw Josh help mom into his car. "Why is mom seeing Josh when she promised never to see him again?" Julie asked herself.

When dad returned, mom lied to him. When he asked her if she had seen Josh while he was gone she said, "No." But dad pursued the subject and continued to ask her what she did. Finally she said, "I can't take this invasion of privacy" and that her life was "none of his business." She got up, started to pack her suitcase and gave Julie a kiss with the promise to see her tomorrow. She left that night leaving Julie feeling abandoned by her mother.

Julie didn't understand what had happened. She thought it was her fault -- maybe she had done something to make mom leave and cause this terrible punishment. She cried inconsolably. Dad tried to soothe Julie but nothing helped. She cried herself to sleep.

The next morning Julie went to school but did not say a word. Her teacher asked what was wrong, but Julie wouldn't respond. Her eyes just filled with tears.

When Julie saw her mom she cried and pleaded for her to come home. Julie promised to clean her room every day and wash and dry the dishes. But nothing worked. Mom didn't come home.

After a month mom changed her mind. Julie was so excited when she heard the good news. But her happiness turned to despair when she was told that her mom had forced her dad to move away so she could come home.

Julie had come to trust and depend on her dad in the last month and appreciated him more than she ever had in the past. Now she was about to lose a parent she loved and trusted all over again.

These experiences were only the beginning for Julie. In the months to come mom and dad would unknowingly teach Julie more lessons about life.

*Children learn from their parents. In fact parents are the most influential guides in a child's life. Many will see their mannerisms and phrases being used by their child. But parents are more than models for mannerisms and phrases. They are models for crucial aspects of life: a work ethic, intimate relationships, friendships, domestic skills, communication, and problem-solving skills. Lessons about life are being taught when a parent has an affair -- lessons that they usually don't want their child to learn.*

The first lesson a child learns is,

How to deal with emotional pain.
Children whose parents are experiencing marital conflict feel many emotions -- guilt, confusion, loneliness, sadness, fear, worry, abandonment, and many other excruciating feelings. When a child is losing the security base of a strong marriage they are bombarded with pain.

So how is a child supposed to soothe their pain and the feeling of helplessness? And how does a child gain control in an uncontrollable situation? Out of the need to defend against these uncomfortable feelings comes a new rule about life --

If a problem arises it is better to deny that there is a problem than to face it and feel the pain.
Julie came to believe this rule. She would think,

"This is how married people lived. Nothing was wrong about this situation. There really isn't a problem here. Just look the other way."
A child can defend themselves from the bombardment of emotional pain through the defenses of denial and justification.

But this new rule did not help teach Julie how to solve crucial problems that would face her later in life. Instead of facing and solving those problems, she would deny their very existence and look the other way as it would grow and eventually overwhelm her.

Julie was also being taught a second lesson,

How to lie.
In order to maintain a secret second life, wayward spouses need to keep up the deceit. After Julie started living with her mom, she was asked not to talk to dad about Josh. She was further instructed to tell dad that she hadn't seen him. Mom explained that it is better that dad just doesn't know "because we don't want to make him upset." Julie remembered how upset dad was when he found out about Josh. She didn't want him to get angry at mom. So with this newly learned habit of lying for mom, came a second rule about life --

Lying is allowed if it spares another from pain or spares yourself from punishment.
Another rule from this lesson on deceit is that

Lying is allowed when it protects your privacy. Everyone has a right to privacy in their life, even if it involves hurting people behind their back.
Julie was told over and over that it was not dad's business to know what mom does. This was meant to justify the fact that mom was lying to dad. Although Julie's mom was a very honest and open person before the affair, mom became quite an expert at deceit and privacy. Julie was watching her model every step of the way.

A third crucial lesson is,

How to be thoughtless -- doing what you please regardless of how it affects other people.
Julie would learn how to take advantage of her friends and family when there was something in it for her. She would learn how to disregard others' suffering because she had a right to enjoy life to the fullest. All wayward spouses hurt the people they care about the most. Wayward spouses rationalize that they had to look out for themselves which is why they developed the relationship outside of their marriage in the first place. Their actions seem to benefit themselves in the short term, but it has disastrous effects on members of their family.

Marital discord is hard enough on children. It undermines the basic security needed for them to learn and grow. But to add infidelity to a troubled marriage turns a problem into a disaster. Parents who have an affair are teaching their children very important rules that are likely to be followed for the rest of their lives. It ultimately not only undermines their marital relationships but it also seriously hurts their own chances for success in most other areas of life.

Parents have a responsibility to teach their children the importance of honesty and the importance of thoughtfulness -- considering other people's feeling when decisions are being made. To do otherwise is not only terribly irresponsible, but may tend to perpetuate the learning of these rules of deceit and thoughtlessness for generations to come.
_

At this point i challenge you to provide me some examples of how infidelity is NOT damaging to children. And if you say "of course it's damaging to children" then I ask you *how a person can be a good parent while knowingly and willfully damaging their children?*

Here endith the lesson.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> You have already received numerous specific examples from other posters but you keep beating the same drum hoping to hear a flute. I have already posted two different articles on how children are adversely affected by a parent's infidelity. For your edification I will post another from Dr. Harley.
> 
> Infidelity: The Lessons Children Learn
> 
> _When a parent has an affair what lessons are being taught to the children? What rules of life are being learned?
> Julie was a happy-go-lucky eight-year old. She was at the top of her 3rd grade class, loved playing with her friends, riding her bike, and drawing. Her parents loved her and she loved them.
> 
> One day after school mom introduced Julie to two girls who were close to Julie's age. Mom said that she was taking care of them for a friend named Josh. Julie enjoyed playing with the girls and looked forward to them coming again.
> 
> In fact they would come over quite often with their dad. But it was only when Julie's dad was out of town. Sometimes Josh stayed late -- long after Julie had gone to sleep.
> 
> One day dad came home from his trip. As he was hugging Julie he asked, "How is my princess? What did you do while I was away?" Julie started telling him about the new puppy that "Uncle Josh" brought to the house. Dad knew that mom had been helping someone with child care, but when he heard it was "Uncle Josh" he became a little suspicious.
> 
> "How often do you see Uncle Josh?" he asked. With a smile Julie said, "Oh, he comes over every day to help mom when you're gone." Mom looked at Julie with a stern face. But Julie didn't understand why she was becoming upset. Her dad started asking her mom questions and their voices became louder and louder. Julie was sent to her room.
> 
> As Julie listened outside, her door she heard her mom say, "Josh is just a friend. Aren't I allowed to have friends. Why do you have to be so jealous? Don't you trust me?" Julie finally heard her mom say that she would never see Josh again if that's what her dad really wanted.
> 
> After a couple days, mom and dad started talking to each other and mom and dad seemed happy again. They all returned to their routine of life and Julie started to forget about that horrible night.
> 
> But the next time dad went on a trip, mom did not keep her promise. She told Julie that the babysitter will be taking care of her that night. But mom wouldn't tell Julie where she was going. As mom left the house she saw Josh help mom into his car. "Why is mom seeing Josh when she promised never to see him again?" Julie asked herself.
> 
> When dad returned, mom lied to him. When he asked her if she had seen Josh while he was gone she said, "No." But dad pursued the subject and continued to ask her what she did. Finally she said, "I can't take this invasion of privacy" and that her life was "none of his business." She got up, started to pack her suitcase and gave Julie a kiss with the promise to see her tomorrow. She left that night leaving Julie feeling abandoned by her mother.
> 
> Julie didn't understand what had happened. She thought it was her fault -- maybe she had done something to make mom leave and cause this terrible punishment. She cried inconsolably. Dad tried to soothe Julie but nothing helped. She cried herself to sleep.
> 
> The next morning Julie went to school but did not say a word. Her teacher asked what was wrong, but Julie wouldn't respond. Her eyes just filled with tears.
> 
> When Julie saw her mom she cried and pleaded for her to come home. Julie promised to clean her room every day and wash and dry the dishes. But nothing worked. Mom didn't come home.
> 
> After a month mom changed her mind. Julie was so excited when she heard the good news. But her happiness turned to despair when she was told that her mom had forced her dad to move away so she could come home.
> 
> Julie had come to trust and depend on her dad in the last month and appreciated him more than she ever had in the past. Now she was about to lose a parent she loved and trusted all over again.
> 
> These experiences were only the beginning for Julie. In the months to come mom and dad would unknowingly teach Julie more lessons about life.
> 
> *Children learn from their parents. In fact parents are the most influential guides in a child's life. Many will see their mannerisms and phrases being used by their child. But parents are more than models for mannerisms and phrases. They are models for crucial aspects of life: a work ethic, intimate relationships, friendships, domestic skills, communication, and problem-solving skills. Lessons about life are being taught when a parent has an affair -- lessons that they usually don't want their child to learn.*
> 
> The first lesson a child learns is,
> 
> How to deal with emotional pain.
> Children whose parents are experiencing marital conflict feel many emotions -- guilt, confusion, loneliness, sadness, fear, worry, abandonment, and many other excruciating feelings. When a child is losing the security base of a strong marriage they are bombarded with pain.
> 
> So how is a child supposed to soothe their pain and the feeling of helplessness? And how does a child gain control in an uncontrollable situation? Out of the need to defend against these uncomfortable feelings comes a new rule about life --
> 
> If a problem arises it is better to deny that there is a problem than to face it and feel the pain.
> Julie came to believe this rule. She would think,
> 
> "This is how married people lived. Nothing was wrong about this situation. There really isn't a problem here. Just look the other way."
> A child can defend themselves from the bombardment of emotional pain through the defenses of denial and justification.
> 
> But this new rule did not help teach Julie how to solve crucial problems that would face her later in life. Instead of facing and solving those problems, she would deny their very existence and look the other way as it would grow and eventually overwhelm her.
> 
> Julie was also being taught a second lesson,
> 
> How to lie.
> In order to maintain a secret second life, wayward spouses need to keep up the deceit. After Julie started living with her mom, she was asked not to talk to dad about Josh. She was further instructed to tell dad that she hadn't seen him. Mom explained that it is better that dad just doesn't know "because we don't want to make him upset." Julie remembered how upset dad was when he found out about Josh. She didn't want him to get angry at mom. So with this newly learned habit of lying for mom, came a second rule about life --
> 
> Lying is allowed if it spares another from pain or spares yourself from punishment.
> Another rule from this lesson on deceit is that
> 
> Lying is allowed when it protects your privacy. Everyone has a right to privacy in their life, even if it involves hurting people behind their back.
> Julie was told over and over that it was not dad's business to know what mom does. This was meant to justify the fact that mom was lying to dad. Although Julie's mom was a very honest and open person before the affair, mom became quite an expert at deceit and privacy. Julie was watching her model every step of the way.
> 
> A third crucial lesson is,
> 
> How to be thoughtless -- doing what you please regardless of how it affects other people.
> Julie would learn how to take advantage of her friends and family when there was something in it for her. She would learn how to disregard others' suffering because she had a right to enjoy life to the fullest. All wayward spouses hurt the people they care about the most. Wayward spouses rationalize that they had to look out for themselves which is why they developed the relationship outside of their marriage in the first place. Their actions seem to benefit themselves in the short term, but it has disastrous effects on members of their family.
> 
> Marital discord is hard enough on children. It undermines the basic security needed for them to learn and grow. But to add infidelity to a troubled marriage turns a problem into a disaster. Parents who have an affair are teaching their children very important rules that are likely to be followed for the rest of their lives. It ultimately not only undermines their marital relationships but it also seriously hurts their own chances for success in most other areas of life.
> 
> Parents have a responsibility to teach their children the importance of honesty and the importance of thoughtfulness -- considering other people's feeling when decisions are being made. To do otherwise is not only terribly irresponsible, but may tend to perpetuate the learning of these rules of deceit and thoughtlessness for generations to come.
> _
> 
> At this point i challenge you to provide me some examples of how infidelity is NOT damaging to children. And if you say "of course it's damaging to children" then I ask you *how a person can be a good parent while knowingly and willfully damaging their children?*
> 
> Here endith the lesson.


Sorry, Bfree, this isn't proof of a relationship between bad parenting and infidelity. It is somebody's opinion. If you believe it, fine and dandy. I'm ok with that. I don't believe it, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.


----------



## italianjob

Parenting is the single most difficult thing to do in life, IMO.

There's no such thing as a perfect parent, even the best of parents is sometimes guilty of behaviours or actions (or inactions) that could be described as bad parenting. IMO the best parent is the one that can keep to a minimum his/her episodes of "bad parenting".

So if you ask me if cheaters are necessarily bad parents the answer would obviously be: "no, they aren't".
But if you ask me if cheater are necessarily guilty of some bad parenting as a result of just being cheaters, that answer would need to change in: "yes, they are". 

You do your parenting not only doing or not doing things for your children, but also by teaching values and setting examples. In any education loyalty and honesty are values you will try to teach your children. In the moment you decide to cheat you are necessarily betraying those values, thus risking giving a bad example and invalidate your teachings to your children. That is an episode of bad parenting. It doesn't necessarily make you a "bad parent" tout court, but it will lower your "final score" IMO.

And that's just what will happen no matter how good you are at Handling your cheating. Then there are all the examples given by other posters, which are things that may or may not happen.
Let's just say that a cheater multiplies his/her chances at performing "bad parenting" IMO


----------



## Pluto2

Deejo said:


> I could have chosen better wording.
> 
> I based my statement off of my own experience when my mother's infidelity was discovered. And the awareness of so many other instances of infidelity and children, including my own as a divorced adult.
> 
> My mother never stopped being an excellent parent. Same could be said of my ex.
> 
> Just seems some folks are eager to paint cheaters with a very broad negative brush.
> 
> And it doesn't always apply.


A appreciate your response. I agree there can be strong negative brush strokes that don't help healing or a conversation.

Would you agree that brush strokes can go both ways and to say infidelity never harms kids (sure it does, but not always) or infidelity only happens in such and such situation is also equally inaccurate, and unhelpful.


----------



## Rookie4

italianjob said:


> Parenting is the single most difficult thing to do in life, IMO.
> 
> There's no such thing as a perfect parent, even the best of parents is sometimes guilty of behaviours or actions (or inactions) that could be described as bad parenting. IMO the best parent is the one that can keep to a minimum his/her episodes of "bad parenting".
> 
> So if you ask me if cheaters are necessarily bad parents the answer would obviously be: "no, they aren't".
> But if you ask me if cheater are necessarily guilty of some bad parenting as a result of just being cheaters, that answer would need to change in: "yes, they are".
> 
> You do your parenting not only doing or not doing things for your children, but also by teaching values and setting examples. In any education loyalty and honesty are values you will try to teach your children. In the moment you decide to cheat you are necessarily betraying those values, thus risking giving a bad example and invalidate your teachings to your children. That is an episode of bad parenting. It doesn't necessarily make you a "bad parent" tout court, but it will lower your "final score" IMO.
> 
> And that's just what will happen no matter how good you are at Handling your cheating. Then there are all the examples given by other posters, which are things that may or may not happen.
> Let's just say that a cheater multiplies his/her chances at performing "bad parenting" IMO


You make so very valid points, Italianjob. But I don't fully agree with your conclusion. But it is worth thinking about.


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> This isn't true and you know it. People can give an infinite amount of attention to an infinite number of other people. So by your reasoning, a woman who has only one child is a better parent than a woman with three, because she can devote all of her time to her only child , but the woman with three has to spread the love around? Bull.
> In many cultures, multiple partners are the rule rather than the exception, so all of these other cultures are bad parents?


Oh so now we are saying infidelity/ adultery is the same as culturally acceptable multiple partner interactions and therefor we should lump them into the same group? I don't think so as they are not even remotely the same.

Straw man arguments on all parts, as I could equally argue that neither of these are hidden in shame and conducted through hidden techniques which takes time and effort to conduct. How about we make it more realistic and a man that has 3 children devotes his time to the children openly and within the public's eye and knowledge is just as good of a man that has 2 children he attends to openly with his wife and one illegitimate child that he must sneak around to see and devote time to. Since he is taking time away from the other children to be with the one illegitimate child is he barely sees the illegitimate child is he not a bad parent because of this?


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Just to put this to bed.
> As some of you know, I used to be a modified stockcar driver. I knew another driver who was married and had kids. He went to races all over the south, leaving his kids and wife at home. Sometimes he would not get home for a couple of months. His wife did almost ALL of the parenting. She fed, cleaned, and nurtured her kids and attended their activities, and also worked a full-time job. He didn't even know their birthdays. She finally got sick of having a husband who wasn't there, most of the time, and met another man.
> The blame for cheating was hers, we all agree with that. But who was the better parent?


She was not a good parent for putting up with and subjecting her children to an absentee father. Next question.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> This isn't true and you know it. People can give an infinite amount of attention to an infinite number of other people. So by your reasoning, a woman who has only one child is a better parent than a woman with three, because she can devote all of her time to her only child , but the woman with three has to spread the love around? Bull.
> In many cultures, multiple partners are the rule rather than the exception, so all of these other cultures are bad parents?


In many cultures adults have sex in front of children. Should I bang my wife in the living room while the kids are watching cartoons?


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, Bfree, this isn't proof of a relationship between bad parenting and infidelity. It is somebody's opinion. If you believe it, fine and dandy. I'm ok with that. I don't believe it, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.


Yes, it's the opinion of someone who has worked with thousands of couples for decades. It's also the opinions of parents and children who have lived the situation many times over. I'll take their word for it if it's all the same to you.


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> Just to put this to bed.
> As some of you know, I used to be a modified stockcar driver. I knew another driver who was married and had kids. He went to races all over the south, leaving his kids and wife at home. Sometimes he would not get home for a couple of months. His wife did almost ALL of the parenting. She fed, cleaned, and nurtured her kids and attended their activities, and also worked a full-time job. He didn't even know their birthdays. She finally got sick of having a husband who wasn't there, most of the time, and met another man.
> The blame for cheating was hers, we all agree with that. But who was the better parent?


A loaded question. She was the better parent for the period prior to the infidelity (note better does not mean she still is not a bad parent, just not at the comparative level as he was, but one could argue he was providing for his family the best way he knew how and therefor was being a good parent, just an absent one. By your example that would mean that those of us that are not living directly with our children but away from them are inherently bad parents by your standards just due specifically to distance, I disagree.).

We also don't know once she met the other man, how the dynamic with the children changed as that is where you stopped your description. Did she leave them alone or with friends and relatives to be with the OM? Did she bring the OM into the house to meet them and carry on in front of the children,just say don't tell daddy? If so to any of these scenarios, then she was a bad parent I would say most definitely.


----------



## Rookie4

Squeakr said:


> Oh so now we are saying infidelity/ adultery is the same as culturally acceptable multiple partner interactions and therefor we should lump them into the same group? I don't think so as they are not even remotely the same.
> 
> Straw man arguments on all parts, as I could equally argue that neither of these are hidden in shame and conducted through hidden techniques which takes time and effort to conduct. How about we make it more realistic and a man that has 3 children devotes his time to the children openly and within the public's eye and knowledge is just as good of a man that has 2 children he attends to openly with his wife and one illegitimate child that he must sneak around to see and devote time to. Since he is taking time away from the other children to be with the one illegitimate child is he barely sees the illegitimate child is he not a bad parent because of this?


I have no idea, and neither do you. You have zero evidence that the man has a bad relationship with the illegitimate child.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> She was not a good parent for putting up with and subjecting her children to an absentee father. Next question.


I asked you who was the better parent. So you didn't answer my question.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> In many cultures adults have sex in front of children. Should I bang my wife in the living room while the kids are watching cartoons?


Is this allowed in our culture? If it is, then yes it's OK. If not, then this isn't worth answering. Don't try to put any kind of snow job on me , Bfree.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Yes, it's the opinion of someone who has worked with thousands of couples for decades. It's also the opinions of parents and children who have lived the situation many times over. I'll take their word for it if it's all the same to you.


I don't care what you believe. You are perfectly free to believe anything you want. It's a free country.


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> I have no idea, and neither do you. You have zero evidence that the man has a bad relationship with the illegitimate child.


You just posted about a man that was away from his children and how he was a bad parent due to it, now when presented with the same scenario you are bringing relationships into it like that is the measure of a good parent or not. Straw man argument again. Just having a good relationship with a child doesn't mean one is a good parent. Several children would say that they had a good relationship with their parents even though they were removed from the home for bad parenting occurring. The child knows nothing else so how could they say that relationship was good or bad and the parent might have felt they were a great parent. Very few parents know they are being bad parent or exhibiting bad parenting traits. It is the third party that defines bad parenting. It is like the cheater telling the BS how hurt they are allowed to feel and how to react to the findings of infidelity.


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> Is this allowed in our culture? If it is, then yes it's OK. If not, then this isn't worth answering. Don't try to put any kind of snow job on me , Bfree.


In my culture polygamy is not allowed yet you presented it as an argument. Why the double standard??


----------



## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> A appreciate your response. I agree there can be strong negative brush strokes that don't help healing or a conversation.
> 
> Would you agree that brush strokes can go both ways and to say infidelity never harms kids (sure it does, but not always) or infidelity only happens in such and such situation is also equally inaccurate, and unhelpful.


I agree completely with this. Every negative parenting action done by a cheater can and usually is done by non cheaters.
Cheaters lie to their kids....so do non cheaters
Cheaters neglect their kids...so do non cheaters
Cheaters abuse their kids...so do non cheaters


----------



## Rookie4

Squeakr said:


> In my culture polygamy is not allowed yet you presented it as an argument. Why the double standard??


Re read the post, and try to understand my argument. It has nothing to do with polygamy, only cultural differences between people and their parenting skills.


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie, is infidelity that inconsequential to you?
Alcoholics lie to their family, so do cheaters
I was married to a cheater, not an alcoholic. So when I relate my experiences of the lies, manipulation and betrayal my ex inflicted on my family, throwing out these other forms of improper behavior comes across as minimalization on your part. 
This entire thread is about infidelity, not some other form of abusive behavior.
Cheaters are the only type of bad parents. They just are always good ones.


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> Re read the post, and try to understand my argument. It has nothing to do with polygamy, only cultural differences between people and their parenting skills.


I do understand but the fact is that polygamy is not allowed in my culture so it shouldn't be allowed as an argument point when his example was disallowed solely on the reason of cultural acceptance. Same argument here.


----------



## Rookie4

Squeakr said:


> A loaded question. She was the better parent for the period prior to the infidelity (note better does not mean she still is not a bad parent, just not at the comparative level as he was, but one could argue he was providing for his family the best way he knew how and therefor was being a good parent, just an absent one. By your example that would mean that those of us that are not living directly with our children but away from them are inherently bad parents by your standards just due specifically to distance, I disagree.).
> 
> We also don't know once she met the other man, how the dynamic with the children changed as that is where you stopped your description. Did she leave them alone or with friends and relatives to be with the OM? Did she bring the OM into the house to meet them and carry on in front of the children,just say don't tell daddy? If so to any of these scenarios, then she was a bad parent I would say most definitely.


You are projecting. I said NONE of the things you brought up. She was still the only parent to provide parenting. They divorced, and she re-married. Her ex husband's solution was to send his kids to their grandparents. He put his racing above his kids.


----------



## missthelove2013

Rookie4 said:


> I don't care what you believe. You are perfectly free to believe anything you want. It's a free country.


rookie
you sound like a very unremorseful ws...are you a wayward?
Or a bs??


----------



## michzz

One could get philosophical and opine that all people are flawed, so therefore their frailties are inherent to the human condition.

However, going in that direction in mindnumbingly frustrating.

Why?

Because Society has set up rules of behavior, one being a marriage contract.

Why a contract?

To emphasize the seriousness of the vow to marry and put aside other people.

Why the big deal about it?

Partly, about paternity. Party, proof of the connection between two people will not tolerate a third party.

Children are taught about this serious connection, they see the wedding photos, they presumably experience the care and attention of a two-person household.

They learn right and wrong from both parents.

When one of the spouses cheats, the whole vow, marriage, family unit can unravel. Parents disperse, one or the other loses income. One or the other pays less attention or abandons their child.

Some of the changes are temporary as the emotional rawness fades in the parents, there is a type of realigning and making sense of the world again.

But I maintain that there is a permanent sadness introduced in the lives of children, even as adults.

In my own situation, I remarried this year and as happy my daughter is for me? She does not like my new wife--even though I didn't even meet her until I was waiting for the divorce to finalize and had moved 400 miles away from the home (actually, now much closer in miles to my daughter).

Why does it bother her so much?

Because even at 25 she harbored the fantasy that i could put aside the disturbed way her mom treated me and that my ex and I would some day reconcile. Then her life family unit would be whole again.

It never will be and that is the effect of infidelity on my own daughter.

An ache, a hole in her heart.


----------



## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> Rookie, is infidelity that inconsequential to you?
> Alcoholics lie to their family, so do cheaters
> I was married to a cheater, not an alcoholic. So when I relate my experiences of the lies, manipulation and betrayal my ex inflicted on my family, throwing out these other forms of improper behavior comes across as minimalization on your part.
> This entire thread is about infidelity, not some other form of abusive behavior.
> Cheaters are the only type of bad parents. They just are always good ones.


PLease show me where I ever said any of this? Please prove that I believe any of it.


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> I agree completely with this. Every negative parenting action done by a cheater can and usually is done by non cheaters.
> Cheaters lie to their kids....so do non cheaters
> Cheaters neglect their kids...so do non cheaters
> Cheaters abuse their kids...so do non cheaters


This.
When you argue that all these actions cheaters engage in are also done by non cheaters, you are trivializing the betrayal of a cheater and its impact on the entire family. If everything a cheater does is also done by non-cheaters the act of infidelity becomes meaningless and inconsequential.
So I asked if that was what you believe.


----------



## Rookie4

missthelove2013 said:


> rookie
> you sound like a very unremorseful ws...are you a wayward?
> Or a bs??


Actually, I am a former BS. I divorced my ex wife immediatly after discovering her affair. But this has nothing to do with the subject.
Nobody can prove a causal relationship between bad parenting and infidelity.


----------



## FalconKing

Squeakr said:


> You just posted about a man that was away from his children and how he was a bad parent due to it, now when presented with the same scenario you are bringing relationships into it like that is the measure of a good parent or not. Straw man argument again. Just having a good relationship with a child doesn't mean one is a good parent. Several children would say that they had a good relationship with their parents even though they were removed from the home for bad parenting occurring. The child knows nothing else so how could they say that relationship was good or bad and the parent might have felt they were a great parent. Very few parents know they are being bad parent or exhibiting bad parenting traits. It is the third party that defines bad parenting. It is like the cheater telling the BS how hurt they are allowed to feel and how to react to the findings of infidelity.


Good point. I was at a restaurant one time and I sat near a father and son. They seem to be laughing and having a good time. Then the father takes out his phone and shows pictures and text of a woman he was banging, jokes about it with his son. The boy was like 9. I'm sure that guy thought he was a great father....


----------



## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> This.
> When you argue that all these actions cheaters engage in are also done by non cheaters, you are trivializing the betrayal of a cheater and its impact on the entire family. If everything a cheater does is also done by non-cheaters the act of infidelity becomes meaningless and inconsequential.
> So I asked if that was what you believe.


You are mistaken. I am doing nothing of the kind. You are projecting your opinion onto me. NEVER, in Any post I have ever made, at any time, have I said that infidelity was not important.


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> Actually, I am a former BS. I divorced my ex wife immediatly after discovering her affair. But this has nothing to do with the subject.
> Nobody can prove a causal relationship between bad parenting and infidelity.


After 2600 posts and you still address this subject in terms of absolutes.
Good luck


----------



## Rookie4

Squeakr said:


> You just posted about a man that was away from his children and how he was a bad parent due to it, now when presented with the same scenario you are bringing relationships into it like that is the measure of a good parent or not. Straw man argument again. Just having a good relationship with a child doesn't mean one is a good parent. Several children would say that they had a good relationship with their parents even though they were removed from the home for bad parenting occurring. The child knows nothing else so how could they say that relationship was good or bad and the parent might have felt they were a great parent. Very few parents know they are being bad parent or exhibiting bad parenting traits. It is the third party that defines bad parenting. It is like the cheater telling the BS how hurt they are allowed to feel and how to react to the findings of infidelity.


I actually agree with a lot of this, but that does not prove that the cheating caused anybody to be a bad parent.


----------



## Rookie4

You cannot prove a subjective argument. It is impossible. You cannot prove that a cheater is a bad parent, any more than you can prove a non cheater is a good parent. All you can prove is that a cheater is a cheater. Nothing more.


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> You are projecting. I said NONE of the things you brought up. She was still the only parent to provide parenting. They divorced, and she re-married. Her ex husband's solution was to send his kids to their grandparents. He put his racing above his kids.


Not projecting at all. I am drawing logical conclusions from what is presented and nothing more. You were leading the expected response to be that since she was there raising the children the entire time and he was absent and by this fact alone, she was the better parent. We don't know if she asked her to go with him when the children were younger and she refused or anything about the dynamics of the household expect she was there taking care of the children and he was not. You never state what the situation was like during her infidelity and solely that she was unhappy (which leads people to believe that the children were unhappy as well due to dad being gone and thus he was a bad dad), you just painted her as the good parent and him the bad one solely from the absence. I know lots of "road warriors" that aren't home lots but are excellent parents in the eyes of the community, spouses, and the children.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> I asked you who was the better parent. So you didn't answer my question.


I answered as best I could given the available information. So she was there? Was she beating the children? Was she out drinking in a bar leaving the children home alone?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> Is this allowed in our culture? If it is, then yes it's OK. If not, then this isn't worth answering. Don't try to put any kind of snow job on me , Bfree.


Multiple partners isn't allowed in our culture either. So why did you ask?


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> You cannot prove a subjective argument. It is impossible. You cannot prove that a cheater is a bad parent, any more than you can prove a non cheater is a good parent. All you can prove is that a cheater is a cheater. Nothing more.


If you know this, then why are you constantly asking for proof and validation to the contrary from others? Seems like an oxymoron and exercise in futility to state this (if you do truly believe this) and yet continually ask for proof? What are you trying to achieve?

It is like asking someone to prove that a child's life would have been better if something that happened at one time (be it positive or negative) had never occurred. It is something that will never be known or provable.


----------



## vellocet

missthelove2013 said:


> ugh
> If you are married with children and you have an affair, you just placed the needs of your crotch over your children...if THAT does not take away from your over all parenting score, than...um...really???



:iagree:

That has to be about the best way I have seen it put yet.


----------



## michzz

Rookie4 said:


> You cannot prove a subjective argument. It is impossible. You cannot prove that a cheater is a bad parent, any more than you can prove a non cheater is a good parent. All you can prove is that a cheater is a cheater. Nothing more.


If all this is to you is an exercise in philophical debate, then maybe you ought to shift your focus to something not filled with pain--like the latest information about prime numbers?

Absolute proofs?

Seriously?


----------



## larry.gray

Rookie4 said:


> How do you subject your kids to an act of infidelity? Without somebody spilling the beans. Kids might be aware that their parents are fighting, true, but that could be because of many causes. It is only when one parent or the other tell them about it, that it becomes a parenting issue. Kids do not learn by osmosis.


You say that viewed through the lens of a dude that divorced his wife for infidelity when his kids were older.

I think you might have a different perspective if that divorce happened when your kids were 3 and they spent their formative years bouncing between two households and you spent 1/2 of the time without your kids around. THAT is how kids are impacted by divorce. Kids MIGHT come out OK from a young age divorce, but it does negatively impact them.


----------



## Served Cold

Rookie4 said:


> Just to put this to bed.
> As some of you know, I used to be a modified stockcar driver. I knew another driver who was married and had kids. He went to races all over the south, leaving his kids and wife at home. Sometimes he would not get home for a couple of months. His wife did almost ALL of the parenting. She fed, cleaned, and nurtured her kids and attended their activities, and also worked a full-time job. He didn't even know their birthdays. She finally got sick of having a husband who wasn't there, most of the time, and met another man.
> The blame for cheating was hers, we all agree with that. But who was the better parent?



Ok...the husband neglected her...what about this OM and his character. Was the OM single or married? How does the character of the husband and the affair partner differ. He was either a single guy looking for easy, or another Married Man risking his family along with her family.

I find it odd, if a parent is so good, how do they have the time to conduct an affair. Really, she worked full time, fed and nurtured her kids, attended all their activities and had time for the OM. 

Ahh,mmm...

I don't buy into the martyr WS projection.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> The thing is, that most posters while trying to prove that their cheating spouse was a bad parent, are only using evidence of what makes them bad spouses. I would like to see evidence of bad parenting, not opinions of bad spouses. We already KNOW that they are bad spouses.


Its pretty simple really. As a father who loves his kids more than anything in the world, I would have never done anything that would have risked their well being.

I wouldn't be a man about to penetrate a woman other than their mother thinking to myself, "This orgasm I'm about to have is worth risking my kids' childhood and uproot their lives".

I have a friend that to this day will not talk to his mother for cheating on his father. He DOES consider her a bad parent. They went through the great messy divorce, his life uprooted, having to visit his father only every other weekend. 

He decided when he turned 13, when apparently he is allowed to decide who he wants to live with, to live with his father since she was the one that went out and spread 'em.

In his mind his mother didn't think enough about him to keep them crossed. Thank goodness he decided not to let her punish his father further by adding insult to injury of losing his child and having to pay her for that privilege.


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> Just to put this to bed.
> As some of you know, I used to be a modified stockcar driver. I knew another driver who was married and had kids. He went to races all over the south, leaving his kids and wife at home. Sometimes he would not get home for a couple of months. His wife did almost ALL of the parenting. She fed, cleaned, and nurtured her kids and attended their activities, and also worked a full-time job. He didn't even know their birthdays. She finally got sick of having a husband who wasn't there, most of the time, and met another man.
> The blame for cheating was hers, we all agree with that. But who was the better parent?


The one who wasn't doing anything detrimental to the family. 

You really going to try to compare someone that is off making a living to provide for a family, to risking their kids' well being because they want to screw someone else? Wow.

I suppose next you are going to defend people that cheat on their deployed spouses in the military??


----------



## nikoled

My WH is a GREAT dad. Always has been EXCEPT during his affair. During that time he was detached from all of us including his kids. HE wasn't a horrid dad, but he wasn't the great dad that he has been for most of our marriage (our eldest is 19). He wasn't being great dad when even though he was throwing a huge birthday party for our 10 year old he was running into his office between photos, cake, etc to chat with OW. He wasn't being a great dad when we were out of town at a dance competition and rather than spending time with his daughters he was out in the hall chatting with OW. He was around during this time in our lives sometimes, but he was never fully present. He was either distracted by HER or by his GUILT from being distracted by her. He was putting HIS needs above everyone elses. So no, I don't think a cheating parent is being the best parent. The best parent would love their child enough to do the right thing- something they wouldn't be embarrassed or shameful to admit to that same child when they are an adult. Even if that includes divorcing after trying their hardest to "fix" their marriage.


----------



## Rookie4

Squeakr said:


> If you know this, then why are you constantly asking for proof and validation to the contrary from others? Seems like an oxymoron and exercise in futility to state this (if you do truly believe this) and yet continually ask for proof? What are you trying to achieve?
> 
> It is like asking someone to prove that a child's life would have been better if something that happened at one time (be it positive or negative) had never occurred. It is something that will never be known or provable.


I'm not trying to prove anything, except that if you make these statements, you need to prove them or admit that they are only your opinion. I have stated my position, and nobody has been able to refute it, but you are welcome to try. Personally, my opinion is that a great many cheaters ARE bad parents, and I have said this before. But it is not true that ALL WS's are bad parents. And nobody has proven other wise. Some posters delude themselves into thinking that because a person cheats , that every problem or issue in the marriage automatically becomes the WS's fault. I have said it before, and I'll say it again. Fair play for all, in my motto. WS or BS.
If you are going to come here and make sweeping statements that WS's are bad parents, either prove the statements or make up your own thread.


----------



## vellocet

nikoled said:


> My WH is a GREAT dad. Always has been EXCEPT during his affair. During that time he was detached from all of us including his kids.


And this I can agree with. IMO, they were lousy parents DURING the affair. Once the dust settles and they are no longer in an affair, or their spouse divorced them, they can be good parents again.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> And this I can agree with. IMO, they were lousy parents DURING the affair. Once the dust settles and they are no longer in an affair, or their spouse divorced them, they can be good parents again.


 This si a good post. Vellocet has phrased this as an opiinion, and his opinion is as valid as anybodys, including mine. I disagree with you, but can see your point.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

vellocet said:


> Its pretty simple really. As a father who loves his kids more than anything in the world, I would have never done anything that would have risked their well being.


I don't see how this relates to infidelity. All the same issues crop up even if there is no cheating.

Would my kids have been better off if I divorced my wife from the get go? Was my wife a "better parent" for having completely neglected the marriage relationship in favor of the parent-child relationship... even though that neglect is what ultimately soured my feelings for her?

This is why some of us have pointed to the fact that behind many affairs, are underlying issues which in many cases - should have just ended in divorce sans cheating anyway. In such cases, there's really no difference in terms of outcome for the children.


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> I'm not trying to prove anything, except that if you make these statements, you need to prove them or admit that they are only your opinion. I have stated my position, and nobody has been able to refute it, but you are welcome to try. Personally, my opinion is that a great many cheaters ARE bad parents, and I have said this before. But it is not true that ALL WS's are bad parents. And nobody has proven other wise. Some posters delude themselves into thinking that because a person cheats , that every problem or issue in the marriage automatically becomes the WS's fault. I have said it before, and I'll say it again. *Fair play for all, in my motto.* WS or BS.
> If you are going to come here and make sweeping statements that WS's are bad parents, either prove the statements or make up your own thread.


Then live by your motto. If someone wants to make that broad sweeping statement, then let them, just as much as those that want to make broad sweeping statements to the opposite. You are not designated the police of the internet and if someone wants to post such in any thread, as long as they do so without harm or affect to other there is no problem? Don't agree with it, then just move on if your motto is free play. You aren't persistently asking those sharing your view to prove their opinions and statement. Why not, fair play right?? 

Several therapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists have published their results regarding infidelity, marriage, and parenting and the results are always that it affects them negatively. Yet several here on TAM have written all of them off as heresy and bunk, since there isn't a measurable effect and it doesn't affect all as severely. If you believe for or against that, it is fine, but it doesn't mean that it is a truth. Since neither side is proven you can't say definitively whom is right and whom is wrong. Living in a filthy house is not a definite sign of bad parenting but social services will remove clean, happy, and healthy children for such things, why?


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> This si a good post. Vellocet has phrased this as an opiinion, and his opinion is as valid as anybodys, including mine. I disagree with you, but can see your point.


You mean you think that someone that is putting their orgasm before their childrens' well being are being a good parent at the time?


----------



## Rookie4

Squeakr said:


> Then live by your motto. If someone wants to make that broad sweeping statement, then let them, just as much as those that want to make broad sweeping statements to the opposite. You are not designated the police of the internet and if someone wants to post such in any thread, as long as they do so without harm or affect to other there is no problem? Don't agree with it, then just move on if your motto is free play. You aren't persistently asking those sharing your view to prove their opinions and statement. Why not, fair play right??
> 
> Several therapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists have published their results regarding infidelity, marriage, and parenting and the results are always that it affects them negatively. Yet several here on TAM have written all of them off as heresy and bunk, since there isn't a measurable effect and it doesn't affect all as severely. If you believe for or against that, it is fine, but it doesn't mean that it is a truth. Since neither side is proven you can't say definitively whom is right and whom is wrong. Living in a filthy house is not a definite sign of bad parenting but social services will remove clean, happy, and healthy children for such things, why?


Dude, I'm done talking about it. If you want to continue, feel free, but I've already said all I'm going to. This T/J has gone on long enough. Start your own thread and I will come on it and debate you anytime you want.


----------



## vellocet

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't see how this relates to infidelity. All the same issues crop up even if there is no cheating.


I agree.

There are lots of ways to be a bad parent. And doing something as detrimental to their well being such as infidelity, is one of them.

Am I a better parent than my slvt x-wife? Absolutely.

Now had I been a drug head, a drunk, or abused my kids, then no.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> I agree.
> 
> There are lots of ways to be a bad parent. And doing something as detrimental to their well being such as infidelity, is one of them.
> 
> Am I a better parent than my slvt x-wife? Absolutely.
> 
> Now had I been a drug head, a drunk, or abused my kids, then no.


I agree with your first sentence. You second should include "might be one of them".


----------



## vellocet

Rookie4 said:


> I agree with your first sentence. You second should include "might be one of them".


No, the second sentence is fine the way it is. Unless risking their well being is a good thing.


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> Dude, I'm done talking about it. If you want to continue, feel free, but I've already said all I'm going to. This T/J has gone on long enough. Start your own thread and I will come on it and debate you anytime you want.


Whatever you choose. You took part in starting the T/J so don't act like you are taking the honorable and high road here. I do not know you and am not your dude, bro, or otherwise and would appreciate not being treated otherwise. Not saying if we met we wouldn't or couldn't possibly be friends, but as it is we are not and I see this as a put down. I have responded to your "statements" and none have been written as opinion so they are as open to debate as any other statements made on TAM.

Have a good day then.


----------



## Squeakr

vellocet said:


> No, the second sentence is fine the way it is. Unless risking their well being is a good thing.


I agree it sounds perfectly fine and viable as stated. I have never seen when someone is in a hidden relationship where the time spent on their AP (no matter how small such as reading a text that came through or large such as driving hours to be with them in a room somewhere) does not take away from their time with family.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> 
> Rookie
> I never said that what happened to me is a universal truth so that is somewhat irrelevant to the main issue. The main issue here is that I disagreed with the statement of “.absolutely no role”
> 
> 
> I gave my actual experience and explained in what way she was a bad parent. Here it is again reprinted below:
> 
> *Reply by Rookie*
> What you are saying is that your daughter did not like her Mom cheating. I get that. Many kids disapprove of their parents behavior. This isn't even near proof that your wife was a bad parent. That is what I'm trying to get at. That is why I asked you for specific examples of HOW your wife was a bad parent. You continue to avoid the question, so I can only assume that you don't have any specific examples. That's OK.
> 
> 
> 
> By the way the damaged security and emotions was my daughter’s words not mine.
> 
> Here below is a reprint of another grown child telling about the suffering of the parent’s infidelity
> 
> 
> 
> Rookie, I do not know if you need a more clear testimony than what these children have stated, but I am not going to spend too much time trying to convince you that my daughter and BetrayedAgain7 are telling the truth. If you want to believe that “infidelity plays absolutely no role in what kind of parent you are.” then be my guest. I know what happened to our family and I bet that BetraydAgain7 does also.
> 
> 
> My post and BetrayedAgain7 seems to be clear. Are you insinuating that we are not clear and do you have another agenda in your post? I ask this because of your question of “I would like to know in what way your wife's affair made her a bad parent.”
> 
> My daughter’s words below answered that clearly in my last post
> 
> 
> Why would you ask a question that was already answered?








> *By Rookie*
> This isn't even near proof that your wife was a bad parent.



*You are basically calling my daughter and BetrayedAgain liars!*

I know what my daughter has said and I have witnessed her life for over 20 years. You have no experience with young children and the affect the berating parent has on them. When the free will choice of the parent is to betray the family and it hurts the children then that is a parent that is a bad parent during that time.

*Rookie you keep asking for proof and you have been given proof by the poster’s actual experiences yet you give no experiences or proof*.

You may have experience with stock car racing but you have no experience of how parents that betray the family affect young children.


I have never said that my truth is the truth for the whole universe but I do know it is the truth for my family and your opinion for me has little or no credibility on this topic.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



vellocet said:


> No, the second sentence is fine the way it is. Unless risking their well being is a good thing.


So here's a question. Which would be the one causing more harm to the child:

Parent 1:
-Earns more than parent 2
-Did not cheat
-Constantly putting the child(ren) down
-Always assumes the worst about the kids
-Apathetic to the kids' accomplishments

Parent 2:
-Cheated
-Praises the kids on their accomplishments
-Reprimands the kids as needed
-Always there when the kids need, whether volunteering at school or going to games or concerts as they occur
-Helping with homework
-Taught the kids how to do various household chores

Are they both bad parents? Or just the non-cheater? Or just the cheater? 

Assume, just for the sake of argument, that the kids never learn(ed) of the affair. Assume, as well, that both parents behave(d) as described above, even when there was no cheating. Does the affair, no matter what type, automatically make the cheater a worse parent, no matter what? Sorry, but I don't think so.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Deejo
> I could have chosen better wording.



*Thank you Deejo for being strong enough to see and admit that your wording could be better*


----------



## michzz

Maricha75 said:


> So here's a question. Which would be the one causing more harm to the child:
> 
> Parent 1:
> -Earns more than parent 2
> -Did not cheat
> -Constantly putting the child(ren) down
> -Always assumes the worst about the kids
> -Apathetic to the kids' accomplishments
> 
> Parent 2:
> -Cheated
> -Praises the kids on their accomplishments
> -Reprimands the kids as needed
> -Always there when the kids need, whether volunteering at school or going to games or concerts as they occur
> -Helping with homework
> -Taught the kids how to do various household chores
> 
> Are they both bad parents? Or just the non-cheater? Or just the cheater?
> 
> Assume, just for the sake of argument, that the kids never learn(ed) of the affair. Assume, as well, that both parents behave(d) as described above, even when there was no cheating. Does the affair, no matter what type, automatically make the cheater a worse parent, no matter what? Sorry, but I don't think so.


Seems like an academic contruct designed to box in an answer, more than a real-world example.

Edited to add: Reminds of George Carlin's tests for the priests when he was a kid:

"Can an all-powerful God make a rock so large that he himself can't lift it?"


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



michzz said:


> Seems like an academic contruct designed to box in an answer, more than a real-world example.


Not at all. Add in the alcoholic factor, and you have my aunt's situation. But, of course, her husband was the better parent, right? After all, he didn't screw another woman.


----------



## Served Cold

Maricha75 said:


> So here's a question. Which would be the one causing more harm to the child:
> 
> Parent 1:
> -Earns more than parent 2
> -Did not cheat
> -Constantly putting the child(ren) down
> -Always assumes the worst about the kids
> -Apathetic to the kids' accomplishments
> 
> Parent 2:
> -Cheated
> -Praises the kids on their accomplishments
> -Reprimands the kids as needed
> -Always there when the kids need, whether volunteering at school or going to games or concerts as they occur
> -Helping with homework
> -Taught the kids how to do various household chores
> 
> Are they both bad parents? Or just the non-cheater? Or just the cheater?
> 
> Assume, just for the sake of argument, that the kids never learn(ed) of the affair. Assume, as well, that both parents behave(d) as described above, even when there was no cheating. Does the affair, no matter what type, automatically make the cheater a worse parent, no matter what? Sorry, but I don't think so.



This begs the question .....who is the good parent who is cheating happens to cheat?

Is the OM or OW a paragon of virtue, or just enjoying some hotel sex with someone who happens to have kids.

Does a good parent cheat? how does that compute. Wouldn't a good parent who's spouse is negligent or not all there as a parent or spouse explain to their kids that if daddy or mommy let yiu down I choose to cheat. Seems as though these kids end up with two lousy parents.


----------



## Squeakr

Maricha75 said:


> So here's a question. Which would be the one causing more harm to the child:
> 
> Parent 1:
> -Earns more than parent 2
> -Did not cheat
> -Constantly putting the child(ren) down
> -Always assumes the worst about the kids
> -Apathetic to the kids' accomplishments
> 
> Parent 2:
> -Cheated
> -Praises the kids on their accomplishments
> -Reprimands the kids as needed
> -Always there when the kids need, whether volunteering at school or going to games or concerts as they occur
> -Helping with homework
> -Taught the kids how to do various household chores
> 
> Are they both bad parents? Or just the non-cheater? Or just the cheater?
> 
> Assume, just for the sake of argument, that the kids never learn(ed) of the affair. Assume, as well, that both parents behave(d) as described above, even when there was no cheating. Does the affair, no matter what type, automatically make the cheater a worse parent, no matter what? Sorry, but I don't think so.


Nope they are both bad parents. #1 from the actions toward the children. #2 from the time deflected from the children during the A. I don't think you can say which is more detrimental to the kids or the "worse" parent until you have an inside and full view of the individual situation and know how the kids are raised. If they are raised to call something out as wrong when they see it, then parent #1 would be at least following his own advice for calling out the children. I don't know of anyone that raises their children with the notion that it is okay to tell someone you love them while cheating on them behind their back. Even open marriage partners generally raise their children with the ideal that cheating on a partner is unacceptable. No one hates do as I say and not as I do. It is when you become the hypocritical do as I say and not as I do parent that one becomes a bad parent (and they can change later to become a better parent.

Several have argued that since the kids never found out about the A that the lack of attention and diversions didn't happen, but kids (and others) notice (it is the old if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound defense). My own kids noticed when Mommy was acting differently and confronted her about it (they are super perceptive to these things whether WS think they are or not) and she said it was nothing and to just let it go and not bring it up again and not tell daddy. 

Years (literally years) later when the As came to light the kids knew the truth and confronted her about it and the past behavior. She once again denied that she had not been there fully for them but they had examples where she was on the phone and not paying attention to them, at an event but spending more time talking to other men than paying attention to them, etc. Just because you attend an event for your kids, if you are texting or talking to the AP are you really there for them? Just physically being there is only one part of the equation.

The fact is that WS try to gaslight the situation by stating other behaviors are worse parenting examples and questioning whom is worse, but the fact is that worse is a level of bad (bad, worse, worst) and we are discussing cheaters as bad parents, not nessecarrily to determine the level of "bad".

At some times all parents are bad parents, but most parents actions are limited to one off events and not serial and ongoing events (which is what an A is).



ETA:

I guess from an outsider's point if you must decide whom is worse, one could argue that parent#2 would be worse in this case, as if #1 had been such a bad parent for so long and the other parent saw it and it wasn't obvious, then wouldn't they have an obligation to protect their child and add extra to make up for what #1 was lacking providing to insure they aren't scarred, instead of having an A. As then they are choosing themselves over #1 AND the kids needs (which are now greater that bad parent #1 wasn't providing) so they are making a conscious decision to be bad and could thus be considered worse comparatively.

This is just my opinion.


----------



## Served Cold

Maricha75 said:


> So here's a question. Which would be the one causing more harm to the child:
> 
> Parent 1:
> -Earns more than parent 2
> -Did not cheat
> -Constantly putting the child(ren) down
> -Always assumes the worst about the kids
> -Apathetic to the kids' accomplishments
> 
> Parent 2:
> -Cheated
> -Praises the kids on their accomplishments
> -Reprimands the kids as needed
> -Always there when the kids need, whether volunteering at school or going to games or concerts as they occur
> -Helping with homework
> -Taught the kids how to do various household chores
> 
> 
> 
> Assume, just for the sake of argument, that the kids never learn(ed) of the affair.


How does cheating address anything in scenario 1. 

Ok...dad is a bad parent and neglects the kids. So having an affair will improve their lives?


----------



## Squeakr

Maricha75 said:


> Not at all. Add in the alcoholic factor, and you have my aunt's situation. But, of course, her husband was the better parent, right? After all, he didn't screw another woman.


So how does his abilities as a parent have any bearing on her abilities as a parent. Either or both can be bad or good parents based upon her respective actions, regardless of the other's. This is like saying the BS's actions are responsible for the WS's cheating ways. Each stands on their own merit and are judged individually.


----------



## larry.gray

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> This is why some of us have pointed to the fact that behind many affairs, are underlying issues which in many cases - should have just ended in divorce sans cheating anyway. In such cases, there's really no difference in terms of outcome for the children.


The key word there is that "many"

In some examples you're dead on. Then there are others where somebody is a selfish individual who takes the cookie because they just can.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

vellocet said:


> I agree.
> 
> There are lots of ways to be a bad parent. And doing something as detrimental to their well being such as infidelity, is one of them.
> 
> Am I a better parent than my slvt x-wife? Absolutely.
> 
> Now had I been a drug head, a drunk, or abused my kids, then no.


If she had simply divorced you without cheating, the result for the children is the same. What makes the cheating necessarily indicative of an inferior parent? It seems between you and your EW, and nothing to do with children.


----------



## vellocet

Maricha75 said:


> So here's a question. Which would be the one causing more harm to the child:
> 
> Parent 1:
> -Earns more than parent 2
> -Did not cheat
> -Constantly putting the child(ren) down
> -Always assumes the worst about the kids
> -Apathetic to the kids' accomplishments
> 
> Parent 2:
> -Cheated
> -Praises the kids on their accomplishments
> -Reprimands the kids as needed
> -Always there when the kids need, whether volunteering at school or going to games or concerts as they occur
> -Helping with homework
> -Taught the kids how to do various household chores
> 
> Are they both bad parents? Or just the non-cheater? Or just the cheater?


Nope, they are both bad. But we are talking about infidelity here. I've already answered this. There are many things that can make a parent a bad parent, infidelity being one of them IMO.




> Assume, just for the sake of argument, that the kids never learn(ed) of the affair. Assume, as well, that both parents behave(d) as described above, even when there was no cheating. Does the affair, no matter what type, automatically make the cheater a worse parent, no matter what? Sorry, but I don't think so.


Neither do I, because thats not what I'm saying. It doesn't make the cheater the worse parent no matter what. I'm saying it makes them a bad parent in general. For somebody to totally disregards their kids' well being for their own pleasure, that's not a good parent, at least at the time.

And it doesn't matter if the kids learn of the affair. The cheating parent is still RISKING their kids' well being for their own gratification. Whether or not the cheater is ever found out is irrelevant. They still would rather betray their kids like that so they can get theirs.

You can come up with all the scenarios you want. It doesn't change the fact that a cheater is not taking their kids' well being into consideration when they want to orgasm with someone else.

I know you are better than this M, please don't disappoint.


----------



## Maricha75

Never said the cheating parent was on the phone or talking to other men/women while at the kids' functions (she wasn't). Nor was she texting OM (no texting that many years ago). No, she was fully there.

So, now, we'll go to my own example. Keep in mind, no sex involved, "only" emotional. I am, and always have been the one involved in every aspect of their lives. I volunteer at the school. I went to every concert, every ball game. Did not call/text/IM with OM during those times. If I talked to anyone, it was the other mothers or their teachers... or my sister or parents. If I got a call/text during any of the events, it was from my husband... and he'd text/call often, knowing I was at the event with the kids. How did he know? The kids were with us. My sister was driving.

And, yes, he would often get on the kids about even the most minute detail. Still does, sometimes. If the youngest cries about something, it's automatically the 13 year old's fault... even if he was nowhere around. He's been that way with the kids since our middle child was born: oldest automatically wrong, no matter what. He's gotten better in the last couple years, but still not as he should be... toward the kids. But OUR relationship has improved. However, when he gets on one of the kids about anything, I DO step in if needed. I don't let him get away with treating them that way. His dad did that to him. I don't want my kids to follow suit.


----------



## vellocet

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> If she had simply divorced you without cheating, the result for the children is the same. What makes the cheating necessarily indicative of an inferior parent?


If she would have divorce me, yes, the result would have been the same. It still doesn't negate the fact that the cheating parent that doesn't divorce is risking their kids' well being.

Are we really going to play this game? Its like saying cheating isn't bad because there are worse things in the world.

Yes, like getting your leg smashed by a baseball bat is better than getting stabbed 20 times. The latter doesn't render the former ok.


----------



## GusPolinski

vellocet said:


> If she would have divorce me, yes, the result would have been the same. It still doesn't negate the fact that the cheating parent that doesn't divorce is risking their kids' well being.
> 
> Are we really going to play this game? Its like saying cheating isn't bad because there are worse things in the world.
> 
> Yes, like getting your leg smashed by a baseball bat is better than getting stabbed 20 times. The latter doesn't render the former ok.


Depends on who's swinging the bat.


----------



## vellocet

GusPolinski said:


> Depends on who's swinging the bat.


Ya, its cute if a 3 year old does it with one of those giant plastic whiffle ball bats.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

vellocet said:


> If she would have divorce me, yes, the result would have been the same. It still doesn't negate the fact that the cheating parent that doesn't divorce is risking their kids' well being.
> 
> Are we really going to play this game? Its like saying cheating isn't bad because there are worse things in the world.
> 
> Yes, like getting your leg smashed by a baseball bat is better than getting stabbed 20 times. The latter doesn't render the former ok.


Not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that cheating, or divorcing, is no different in terms of outcome for the children... and as such, cheating doesn't make one an inferior parent. Both "risk their kid's wellbeing". Are you saying people should remain married for the kid's benefit?


----------



## Youngster

I'm late to the conversation but I'll play the Parent1/Parent2 game......with a different perspective. In my mind clearly Parent 2 is the worse parent.

What happens to Parent 1 after D-Day? Anger, resentment, loss of sleep/appetite, confusion, self doubt, sadness........probably all of these and more.

So parent 1, who really wasn't a great parent is now a complete mess after finding out parent 2 has been in an affair. How is parent 1 now with the kids?

Parent 2 by their actions (even if they parent the exact same pre/post affair.....which I doubt) has harmed the BS to the extent that parent 1 is probably at times non functional........in which case the entire family suffers.


----------



## vellocet

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that cheating, or divorcing, is no different in terms of outcome for the children


And I agree. 



> ... and as such, cheating doesn't make one an inferior parent.


As long as the other parent makes all their decisions with their children in mind, sure it makes the cheating parent a bad parent(at least during an affair). 





> Both "risk their kid's wellbeing".


BINGO. So cheating DOES risk their kids' well being, as does the parent that just wants to divorce because not everything goes their way.
If they are divorcing the other parent because that parent is either a bad parent or has become disconnected from the other spouse, that's a much different story. 




> Are you saying people should remain married for the kid's benefit?


Nope.


----------



## Squeakr

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that cheating, or divorcing, is no different in terms of outcome for the children... and as such, cheating doesn't make one an inferior parent. Both "risk their kid's wellbeing". Are you saying people should remain married for the kid's benefit?


Divorce splits the family but doesn't always threaten the well being of the child. Divorce is generally attempted with the ideal of making a bad situation better for all (even it it splits the family and means both parents not being with the kids everyday). The children do suffer from divorce but much less than when infidelity is involved. Infidelity always threatens the family unit and the well being of the kids. There are many divorces where everything is amicable. There is no situation where the cheaters just shake hands and agree that was a good choice for all.


----------



## Regret214

Yes, my best friend is a product of a divorced family. His mother didn't cheat and neither did his adopted father. But, his adopted father mentally and physically abused him from age 5 until 17 when he walked out of the house with a baseball bat almost killing the adoptive father.

I'm quite certain it would've been soooo much worse on him if his mother had an affair though...

By the way, my best friend's name is Dig.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeakr

Maricha75 said:


> Never said the cheating parent was on the phone or talking to other men/women while at the kids' functions (she wasn't). Nor was she texting OM (no texting that many years ago). No, she was fully there.
> 
> So, now, we'll go to my own example. Keep in mind, no sex involved, "only" emotional. I am, and always have been the one involved in every aspect of their lives. I volunteer at the school. I went to every concert, every ball game. Did not call/text/IM with OM during those times. If I talked to anyone, it was the other mothers or their teachers... or my sister or parents. If I got a call/text during any of the events, it was from my husband... and he'd text/call often, knowing I was at the event with the kids. How did he know? The kids were with us. My sister was driving.
> 
> And, yes, he would often get on the kids about even the most minute detail. Still does, sometimes. If the youngest cries about something, it's automatically the 13 year old's fault... even if he was nowhere around. He's been that way with the kids since our middle child was born: oldest automatically wrong, no matter what. He's gotten better in the last couple years, but still not as he should be... toward the kids. But OUR relationship has improved. However, when he gets on one of the kids about anything, I DO step in if needed. I don't let him get away with treating them that way. His dad did that to him. I don't want my kids to follow suit.


Doesn't matter. If you are involved in an A you are not totally focused on the situation at hand. I would guess it worse before texting. Back then you couldn't steal that quick special moment and had to take real amounts of time to engage in the A. Which meant leaving the child with the other parent or relying on them while you were with your AP. If #1 was that bad and not trustworthy , then leaving the kids knowingly with the parent to carry on the A makes it that much worse.

WS always seem to justify their BS's behavior while they make themselves out to be the example of all that is good and still somehow manage to have an A. I am a BS and I was not always the best example of a parent yet I didn't have free time to really sleep let alone carry on an A and none of this was because of my WS, but because of life limitations. Do WS become superhuman when they are in an A, as they always seem to have enough time to work 40+ hours a week, cook, clean, provide for the health and well being of their child, attend their events, and chauffeur them to and from practice all while maintaining a marriage and extra-marital relationship and no where does anything give as far as attentiveness in their minds. 

I have been on TAM for a few years and this seems to be what I have noticed. Even though they steal away to talk to the AP or text from the bathroom, they don't think that is time they are taking from their kids or BS, somehow they always seem to have more hours in the day than a normal person. Sorry something has to give and be sacrificed.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

vellocet said:


> And I agree.
> 
> As long as the other parent makes all their decisions with their children in mind, sure it makes the cheating parent a bad parent(at least during an affair).


Hmm... my ex made all her decisions with the children in mind... and that fact would have resulted in our eventual divorce even if I hadn't cheated. Cheating, for me, was simply ducking the primary issue. If I had to do it all over again, I would have saved a few years and divorced sooner... long before cheating. So the decisions she made in the kid's best interest... certainly put the kids at risk, if divorce is risky for them.



vellocet said:


> BINGO. So cheating DOES risk their kids' well being, as does the parent that just wants to divorce because not everything goes their way.
> If they are divorcing the other parent because that parent is either a bad parent or has become disconnected from the other spouse, that's a much different story.


You're arguing something I am not. The risk to the children is the end of the marriage either way - is what I'm saying - so I don't see a difference of risk by how it comes about. As for "becoming disconnected to the other spouse"... isn't that what allows cheating? I can't say I've known anyone who cheats and says they had a great connection with their spouse. Certainly wasn't my case. I tend to think people cheat as a result of what isn't there with their spouse (not that its their spouses fault per se... but the bottom line is that they're generally not happy and satisfied).



vellocet said:


> Nope.


Then you'd agree that the would-be cheater who is unhappy and/or dissatisfied, ought to rightly divorce. The result, the end of the marriage and risk to the children, is the same no? By that thinking, isn't any divorcing parent a bad parent? This is where you lose me. Whether you choose to divorce, or cheat... and the marriage ends, the risk to the children is the same.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Squeakr said:


> Divorce splits the family but doesn't always threaten the well being of the child. Divorce is generally attempted with the ideal of making a bad situation better for all (even it it splits the family and means both parents not being with the kids everyday). The children do suffer from divorce but much less than when infidelity is involved. Infidelity always threatens the family unit and the well being of the kids. There are many divorces where everything is amicable. There is no situation where the cheaters just shake hands and agree that was a good choice for all.


I don't see what you're using to differentiate. Pretty sure divorce threatens the family unit and well being of the kids too. We're referring to it as "risk", because you don't really know until after. Some affairs end and the family goes on... no divorce ends with the family continuing on. So who is to say what is best for the kids? It can only be determined in hindsight, so we say "risk"... and both are equally risky... but since we don't condemn a divorcing parent as a bad parent for assuming that risk, I don't see why a cheating parent is thought worse - specifically, in terms of risk to the children. I don't see the fact they had an affair as making them any worse a parent for putting their kids at risk than a divorcing parent is by putting their kids at risk. Other factors may make them worse, but not the sole fact of cheating.

I divorced after my affair(s). She wanted to keep the marriage. But once discussed, it was an amicable divorce. The thing about affairs is that they don't automatically end the marriage, and when they do result in divorce, well, that's not really any different than the cheater having sought the divorce in the first place. The risk to the children is the same - no more marriage, and a potentially bitter spouse.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Squeakr said:


> I have been on TAM for a few years and this seems to be what I have noticed. Even though they steal away to talk to the AP or text from the bathroom, they don't think that is time they are taking from their kids or BS, somehow they always seem to have more hours in the day than a normal person. Sorry something has to give and be sacrificed.


In my case, my ex was in bed by 8pm (something that always pissed me off). I was involved in putting the kids to bed at 730. So I had ample time without sacrificing.

I'd get bored and go spend time with friends, and eventually that was just a cover. On weekends, she'd shoot down plans I made for us in preference for some entire family activity. So we'd do that during the day, and she'd claim to be too tired to do anything that night. She'd go to bed and I'd include other people in the plans I had with her. There were some hobbies we shared before kids that she no longer wanted to have, but I did... and those occupied the rest of our independent time. I wanted a sitter, but she preferred to stay home. If I stole time from anyone during my affairs, it was from myself and these hobbies that she didn't want to participate in any longer.

All of my affairs were carried out like this - with her having the first option to do things with me, declining and I'd just substitute and resentfully think "well, you don't want to do anything with me... fine; I know someone will." 

Until I got hung up on someone and left, she still thought life where she doesn't do a thing alone with her husband was grand.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Squeakr said:


> Doesn't matter. If you are involved in an A you are not totally focused on the situation at hand. I would guess it worse before texting. Back then you couldn't steal that quick special moment and had to take real amounts of time to engage in the A. Which meant leaving the child with the other parent or relying on them while you were with your AP. If #1 was that bad and not trustworthy , then leaving the kids knowingly with the parent to carry on the A makes it that much worse.
> 
> WS always seem to justify their BS's behavior while they make themselves out to be the example of all that is good and still somehow manage to have an A. I am a BS and I was not always the best example of a parent yet I didn't have free time to really sleep let alone carry on an A and none of this was because of my WS, but because of life limitations. Do WS become superhuman when they are in an A, as they always seem to have enough time to work 40+ hours a week, cook, clean, provide for the health and well being of their child, attend their events, and chauffeur them to and from practice all while maintaining a marriage and extra-marital relationship and no where does anything give as far as attentiveness in their minds.
> 
> I have been on TAM for a few years and this seems to be what I have noticed. Even though they steal away to talk to the AP or text from the bathroom, they don't think that is time they are taking from their kids or BS, somehow they always seem to have more hours in the day than a normal person. Sorry something has to give and be sacrificed.


Nope. Stay-at-home parent, both disabled. All day, both were gaming. Yup, chatting with OM took away from... fighting orcs. >.<


----------



## bfree

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> If she had simply divorced you without cheating, the result for the children is the same. What makes the cheating necessarily indicative of an inferior parent? It seems between you and your EW, and nothing to do with children.


I believe according to the articles I posted infidelity is more damaging to children than divorce. Divorce upsets the children's lives it's true but infidelity damages the view the children have of the parent and that is far more detrimental to their adult lives.


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## Squeakr

Maricha75 said:


> Nope. Stay-at-home parent, both disabled. All day, both were gaming. Yup, chatting with OM took away from... fighting orcs. >.<


Still took away time from the kids or BS as I stated and you proved it with this statement.


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## Regret214

Maricha75 said:


> Nope. Stay-at-home parent, both disabled. All day, both were gaming. Yup, chatting with OM took away from... fighting orcs. >.<


Heathen Alliance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Regret214 said:


> Yes, my best friend is a product of a divorced family. His mother didn't cheat and neither did his adopted father. But, his adopted father mentally and physically abused him from age 5 until 17 when he walked out of the house with a baseball bat almost killing the adoptive father.
> 
> I'm quite certain it would've been soooo much worse on him if his mother had an affair though...
> 
> By the way, my best friend's name is Dig.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This doesn't really make any sense. One thing has nothing to do with the other. It's like asking whether you'd rather die by hanging or drowning. Doesn't matter in the long run does it?


----------



## bfree

Regret214 said:


> Heathen Alliance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For the horde....


----------



## Squeakr

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> In my case, my ex was in bed by 8pm (something that always pissed me off). I was involved in putting the kids to bed at 730. So I had ample time without sacrificing.
> 
> I'd get bored and go spend time with friends, and eventually that was just a cover. On weekends, she'd shoot down plans I made for us in preference for some entire family activity. So we'd do that during the day, and she'd claim to be too tired to do anything that night. She'd go to bed and I'd include other people in the plans I had with her. There were some hobbies we shared before kids that she no longer wanted to have, but I did... and those occupied the rest of our independent time. I wanted a sitter, but she preferred to stay home. If I stole time from anyone during my affairs, it was from myself and these hobbies that she didn't want to participate in any longer.
> 
> All of my affairs were carried out like this - with her having the first option to do things with me, declining and I'd just substitute and resentfully think "well, you don't want to do anything with me... fine; I know someone will."
> 
> Until I got hung up on someone and left, she still thought life where she doesn't do a thing alone with her husband was grand.


But you were neglecting your duties as a parent by going out and doing other things with friends. What if your kids awoke in the middle of the night when you were out? You weren't there for your kids if they needed you (yes your spouse had responsibilities as well and was just as responsible but this doesn't exonerate your behavior and responsibilities). Since you were not there you would never know if this happened or not, unless your spouse told you it happened, so yes you were taking time away from your kids whether you think it or not (and when they awake at night they need you even that much more). Kids are a full time job, sleeping, awake, or otherwise.


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## GusPolinski

Maricha75 said:


> Nope. Stay-at-home parent, both disabled. All day, both were gaming. Yup, chatting with OM took away from... fighting orcs. >.<


Damn orcs.


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## GusPolinski

bfree said:


> For the horde....


No...

FOR THE LIGHT!!!


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## Regret214

bfree said:


> This doesn't really make any sense. One thing has nothing to do with the other. It's like asking whether you'd rather die by hanging or drowning. Doesn't matter in the long run does it?


Doesn't make sense? Bfree, you seem to have lost the panache you had a couple years ago.

You guys write that infidelity is worse, yet now when I make a comment about a PERSONAL experience, it's shot down. Albeit with the "doesn't matter in the long run".

Well, ummm...take your own damn medicine, then.


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## Regret214

GusPolinski said:


> No...
> 
> FOR THE LIGHT!!!


Ours is a Horde Home!!


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## vellocet

Regret214 said:


> Yes, my best friend is a product of a divorced family. His mother didn't cheat and neither did his adopted father. But, his adopted father mentally and physically abused him from age 5 until 17 when he walked out of the house with a baseball bat almost killing the adoptive father.
> 
> *I'm quite certain it would've been soooo much worse on him if his mother had an affair though*...


No, it wouldn't have. Still doesn't negate the fact that when involved in an affair, the cheating parent is putting their gratification ahead of the well being of the child. 

There are all sorts of things that a parent can do that makes them a bad parent or selfish. Infidelity is just one of them. I don't know how many times that needs to be said.


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## bfree

Regret214 said:


> Doesn't make sense? Bfree, you seem to have lost the panache you had a couple years ago.
> 
> You guys write that infidelity is worse, yet now when I make a comment about a PERSONAL experience, it's shot down. Albeit with the "doesn't matter in the long run".
> 
> Well, ummm...take your own damn medicine, then.


No, I'm saying both cases are bad of course but I don't see the relationship between a step parent abusing a child and infidelity. Are you saying that his mother was an awful parent for choosing a man that abused her son. I agree with that. Would it have been better if she cheated? I don't see the connection. Yes, that's bad as well. I'm failing to understand the point.


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## vellocet

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> You're arguing something I am not.


Likewise, so it is pointless to continue. No offense to you D, cuz I like ya.


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## Squeakr

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't see what you're using to differentiate. Pretty sure divorce threatens the family unit and well being of the kids too. We're referring to it as "risk", because you don't really know until after. Some affairs end and the family goes on... no divorce ends with the family continuing on. So who is to say what is best for the kids? It can only be determined in hindsight, so we say "risk"... and both are equally risky... but since we don't condemn a divorcing parent as a bad parent for assuming that risk, I don't see why a cheating parent is thought worse - specifically, in terms of risk to the children. I don't see the fact they had an affair as making them any worse a parent for putting their kids at risk than a divorcing parent is by putting their kids at risk. Other factors may make them worse, but not the sole fact of cheating.
> 
> I divorced after my affair(s). She wanted to keep the marriage. But once discussed, it was an amicable divorce. The thing about affairs is that they don't automatically end the marriage, and when they do result in divorce, well, that's not really any different than the cheater having sought the divorce in the first place. The risk to the children is the same - no more marriage, and a potentially bitter spouse.


You are correct about the risk, but As always hurt the kids. Believe what you want, divorce may or may not harm the kids, so yes it is a risk. Infidelity always harms the kids. There is no risk involved it will harm the kids. Ask any child no matter the age, when they found lout about a parents infidelity if it hurt them or not, and it always will (whether divorce resulted or not), divorce is not as cut and dried, so not a fair comparison. Unless the parents make it nasty by doing things to the other (and that is not the divorce but the actions of the parents and this same effect could result in divorce or not), divorce in and of itself doesn't have a risk of hurting the kids, it it the actions and reactions of the parents that carries the risk.


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## vellocet

Squeakr said:


> Still took away time from the kids or BS as I stated and you proved it with this statement.


Yup, I was left at home to watch our kids while she went out and F'd. I thought I was being a good husband doing that so she could have fun with friends.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Squeakr said:


> Still took away time from the kids or BS as I stated and you proved it with this statement.


Took affection away, when he was apathetic about everything. The gaming took away from the kids. For both of us. The really sad thing about it is that I started playing because he was. I wanted something that we could do together, that we would both enjoy.


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Re: To lurking Waywards*



vellocet said:


> Yup, I was left at home to watch our kids while she went out and F'd. I thought I was being a good husband doing that so she could have fun with friends.


You were.


----------



## Regret214

vellocet said:


> No, it wouldn't have. Still doesn't negate the fact that when involved in an affair, the cheating parent is putting their gratification ahead of the well being of the child.
> 
> There are all sorts of things that a parent can do that makes them a bad parent or selfish. Infidelity is just one of them. I don't know how many times that needs to be said.


My children were either sleeping or Dig was home from a trip and watching them. I was less absent than one of his trips for work. I was gone as long as a shopping trip to the mall. You guys seem to be lumping everyone in with this singularity and then really dislike a differing point of view.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



GusPolinski said:


> Damn orcs.


And blood elves... and undead... and goblins... and cows... and TROLLS!


----------



## Regret214

bfree said:


> No, I'm saying both cases are bad of course but I don't see the relationship between a step parent abusing a child and infidelity. Are you saying that his mother was an awful parent for choosing a man that abused her son. I agree with that. Would it have been better if she cheated? I don't see the connection. Yes, that's bad as well. I'm failing to understand the point.


Actually, Dig didn't talk to his mother for almost a year because he heard the phrase, "I stayed with him for you boys. I tried to keep the family together."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

Maricha75 said:


> And blood elves... and undead... and goblins... and cows... and TROLLS!


You have gnomes. Enough said. Trolls are just like the people from Avatar. Just with tusks and a Jamaican accent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Regret214 said:


> Ours is a Horde Home!!


That's cool. Horde, Scourge, whatever... SoTR hits just as hard either way.


----------



## Squeakr

Maricha75 said:


> Took affection away, when he was apathetic about everything. The gaming took away from the kids. For both of us. The really sad thing about it is that I started playing because he was. I wanted something that we could do together, that we would both enjoy.


:iagree: But we are talking about infidelity, It is always brought up what the other was doing and this has no bearing on the infidelity. No need to blame shift. Two wrongs don't make one right. Yes, gaming would take away his time with the kids as well, but that is his error and makes him a bad parent but has no bearing on why you cheated to become a bad parent (and I am not judging as we all have been bad parents at one time, they don't come with manuals and tests on what is right and wrong), just that you chose yourself over them, so the infidelity led to bad parenting. That is my point.


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## Regret214

By the way, how can one hate a Blood Elf? Their hair is so luxurious!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

I'm puzzled. How can anyone claim that lying and betraying those close to them equals being a good role model? And isn't that a major part of being a parent?
Could we please disregard the 1000 other bad scenarios for a moment and answer this? I'm curious.


----------



## vellocet

Regret214 said:


> My children were either sleeping or Dig was home from a trip and watching them. I was less absent than one of his trips for work. I was gone as long as a shopping trip to the mall. You guys seem to be lumping everyone in with this singularity and then really dislike a differing point of view.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The problem here is you seem to think it has to do with amount of time away from kids to do your deeds. While that might be a small part of it, I'll just have to say it again.

Its about the RISK to your kids' well being for your own gratification. Luckily it worked out and a broken home for them was averted. But you still risked breaking up their home.

So no lumping anything or anyone together. You all risked what you did for what you wanted. Some end up being forgiven and move on with family life, not so for others.


----------



## GusPolinski

Regret214 said:


> By the way, how can one hate a Blood Elf? Their hair is so luxurious!!


They betrayed the noble calling of their heritage to sate their collective lust for blood magic. TO HELL WITH ALL OF THEM!!!

Well... except for the Paladins.


----------



## bfree

Regret214 said:


> Actually, Dig didn't talk to his mother for almost a year because he heard the phrase, "I stayed with him for you boys. I tried to keep the family together."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, I've heard that one before and it's not much different from blameshifting. It's essentially putting the abusive behavior on the victim. Disgusting.


----------



## vellocet

cpacan said:


> I'm puzzled. How can anyone claim that lying and betraying those close to them equals being a good role model? And isn't that a major part of being a parent?
> Could we please disregard the 1000 other bad scenarios for a moment and answer this? I'm curious.


No, because they have to deflect with other things in the world that are bad to wag the dog.

"I'm in pain, someone smashed my leg with a bat."

"Well, could have been worse, you could have been stabbed. So quit your whining and forget your compound fracture"


----------



## bfree

Regret214 said:


> You have gnomes. Enough said. Trolls are just like the people from Avatar. Just with tusks and a Jamaican accent.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Jamaican me crazy with all the WoW talk.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Regret214 said:


> By the way, how can one hate a Blood Elf? Their hair is so luxurious!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The males look like females. I don't like girly boys.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



GusPolinski said:


> They betrayed the noble calling of their heritage to sate their collective lust for blood magic. TO HELL WITH ALL OF THEM!!!
> 
> Well... except for the Paladins.


Oooo! I have a paladin! She's human, though...


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



bfree said:


> Jamaican me crazy with all the WoW talk.


You love it.


----------



## Squeakr

Gone are the days of using your imagination of what something looked like with D&D role playing (unless you were rich and could afford all the illustrated compendiums and figurines, of which I was not).


----------



## Regret214

GusPolinski said:


> They betrayed the noble calling of their heritage to sate their collective lust for blood magic. TO HELL WITH ALL OF THEM!!!
> 
> Well... except for the Paladins.


Yes, because Night Elves are soooo sweet....floppy eared girly men!


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Squeakr said:


> Gone are the days of using your imagination of what something looked like with D&D role playing (unless you were rich and could afford all the illustrated compendiums and figurines, of which I was not).


Never played. But I like Hearthstone. Close enough?


----------



## GusPolinski

Maricha75 said:


> Oooo! I have a paladin! She's human, though...


I have FIVE OF THEM.

Yeah, I'm f*cking crazy.


----------



## Squeakr

Maricha75 said:


> Never played. But I like Hearthstone. Close enough?


Can't say as I only played D&D and dabbled a little in Warhammer, but it was eons ago when you had to use actual dice. LOL


----------



## Regret214

Squeakr said:


> Gone are the days of using your imagination of what something looked like with D&D role playing (unless you were rich and could afford all the illustrated compendiums and figurines, of which I was not).


Dig talks all the time about the 80's and playing the game in his basement. We've actually looked into a local couples group of people our age who actually own dice and use imagination. Now, if only we could make the time. If Dig gets his new job, he said it's one of those things he'd like is to get involved in. I think it'd be pretty cool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



GusPolinski said:


> I have FIVE OF THEM.
> 
> Yeah, I'm f*cking crazy.


Five?? I have a variety. Paladin is my main, but starting to love my shaman... and monk. Love the monk. I chose all healing classes. Well, except the dk. Actually, technically, the dk could fit that class, too... she's blood.


----------



## bfree

Maricha75 said:


> And blood elves... and undead... and goblins... and cows... and TROLLS!


Speaking of undead...who was not moved by the story of Lillian Voss. All she wanted was love.....


----------



## Squeakr

Regret214 said:


> Dig talks all the time about the 80's and playing the game in his basement. We've actually looked into a local couples group of people our age who actually own dice and use imagination. Now, if only we could make the time. If Dig gets his new job, he said it's one of those things he'd like is to get involved in. I think it'd be pretty cool.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I remember those times as well. In this day and age, playing with a retro group like that is a gamble, it could be a fun and rewarding time, or it could be really sad (thinking about how people have not grown past it, kind of like a really, really bad version of Big Bang Theory). Bazinga!


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



bfree said:


> Speaking of undead...who was not moved by the story of Lillian Voss. All she wanted was love.....


Who? :scratchhead:


----------



## Regret214

Maricha75 said:


> Who? :scratchhead:


Oh, dear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Maricha75 said:


> Who? :scratchhead:


Know Your Lore: The unfortunate tale of Lilian Voss

Lilian Voss was awakened by Sylvanas' val'kyr, finding herself utterly, completely horrifying. Her entire life had been devoted to the eradication of the undead -- and after her death, she found herself in the position of becoming the very thing she'd dedicated her life to wiping out. To the Scarlet Crusade, the undead are an unholy abomination. Every moment of Lilian's life to that date had been filled with the doctrine and dogma of the Scarlet Crusade. 

Faced with her own horrifying reflection, Lilian fled, unwilling to accept or understand what had become of her. She sought out her father, a high priest of the Scarlet Crusade named Benedictus Voss. If no one else would help her, surely her father would know what to do. But before she could find her father, Lilian was captured by a group of Scarlet Crusade nearby. Though she told them who she was, the soldiers had no idea what to do with the young woman and kept her locked away while news of her fate was sent to the high priest.

High Priest Voss knew exactly what to do when confronted with news of his undead daughter. He ordered her immediate execution. Needless to say, the news did not go over well with Lilian, and in an astonishing display of power, she burst into violet flame, leapt through the bars of the cage that held her and incinerated her captor.
Scarlet Lieutenant Gebler says: The time has come, my little captive ... word has come back from your father.
Lilian Voss says: Gebler, you came! What did he say?
Scarlet Lieutenant Gebler says: High Priest Voss denounces you as a daughter. He's ordered that you be executed immediately.
Lilian Voss says: What? NO! This can't be! Gebler, you know me ... we were friends once!
Scarlet Lieutenant Gebler says: The High Priest sends his regrets. He had hoped that one day you would be a powerful weapon against our enemies.
Scarlet Lieutenant Gebler says: Unfortunately, you were too dangerous in life, and you're far too dangerous in undeath. I will enjoy killing you, you Scourged witch ...
Lilian Voss says: Gebler, father, why would you ...
Gelber attempts to kill Lilian, but she leaps through the bars, killing him.
Lilian Voss says: The world of the living may have turned its back on me, but I'm no damned Scourge.
Something in Lilian Voss snapped. Scourge she may not be, but a lethal killing machine -- well, it was what she was raised to be. Her father's betrayal affected her deeply, and at once the innate callousness of the Scarlet Crusade was brought to light. Confronted with the realization that she would find no comfort in the arms of her father, Lilian chose instead to continue down the path her father had pushed her down since she was a child: murder. Murder without consideration or care for those who fell beneath the onslaught of violet fire. 
And if those she fought beside and dedicated her life to would not accept her, then they could fall before her in spades. It may be that Lilian finally saw the Scarlet Crusade for what it truly was: a killing machine, cold and mechanical without thought or feeling for those it ruthlessly mowed down in the name of the "Light." Lilian began a killing spree, enraged at the actions of her former comrades and leaving a trail of violet flame behind her. 
An Urgent Message to all Scarlet Officers and Enlistees:

The Scourge agent known as Lilian Voss has escaped from her captivity at the Scarlet Palisade. She is to be considered highly dangerous, and should be killed on sight. She has already slain 15 of our men. None were left wounded.

Do NOT try to apprehend her. Doing so will likely result in death. She is an enemy to the Crusade and must be crushed immediately.

The crusader who returns her head to the High Priest will be rewarded with 1,000 gold. Refer any questions to your commanding officer.
All across Tirisfal Glades, the alert was raised by the Scarlet Crusade: The High Priest's daughter was a menace that needed to be destroyed, quickly. But Lilian had been trained by the very people she now killed. She knew their methods of fighting. Between her knowledge, her rage, and the mysterious fire that engulfed both her and her enemies, she left a trail of crimson-clad bodies wherever she traveled. It seemed there would be no reasoning with or stopping her.

Having come to the inevitable conclusion that there was no going back, Lilian approached High Executor Derrington at the Bulwark in Tirisfal. While she didn't swear fealty to the Forsaken, she was quick to swear her enmity against the Scarlet Crusade. The High Executor appreciated her odd eagerness for bloodshed and sent her to take care of one of the few remaining Scarlet outposts to the north. A trail of violet-flamed bodies followed in her wake as she relentlessly continued to eradicate those who betrayed her. 
My name is Lilian Voss. Before I died, I was a member of the Scarlet Crusade. My father, High Priest Voss, raised me to be a weapon against the plagued. I studied stealth, sorcery, martial arts, anything to make myself stronger. I gave up my childhood for him.

Then, as fate would have it, I died and returned as... this. My father instantly forgot me and, when I returned, ordered me executed.

Come. We will speak with him now, in his tower to the northwest.
As Lilian made her way to the tower, mechanically ripping apart any Scarlet who stood in her way, her mind was set on one thing, and one alone: Lilian wished to see her father and say hello.
Lilian Voss says: Father!
High Priest Benedictus Voss says: Lilian ... you're ... it's so nice to see you well.
Lilian Voss says: Shut up.
Lilian jumps on the Scarlet Bodyguard and Captain Melrache, killing them instantly.
Lilian Voss says: You raised me to be a killer. How am I doing, daddy?
High Priest Benedictus Voss says: I, ah ...
Lilian Voss says: But wait ... I remember now. You taught me to only kill the undead. So you do want me to kill myself, daddy?
High Priest Benedictus Voss says: Lilian, I ...
Lilian Voss says: Then again, why kill myself ... when I can kill YOU instead!
Lilian Voss embraced her father one final time -- around the neck. Scaling the walls of his tower, she strangled the life from the man, then threw his corpse to the ground with nary a word. While her brutal and unusual attacks caused other Scarlet Crusaders to burst into flame, she curiously avoided doing so with her father, instead letting him feel the life being squeezed from him by his loving daughter's cold, dead hands. And after it was over, Lilian stepped from the tower and vanished.

Nobody has seen Lilian Voss since that day. Her strange powers, the violet flames that engulfed her body and consumed those she fought have never been seen in a Forsaken before. Was it her unusual heritage, her upbringing in the Scarlet Crusade that brought it about? Was it Lilian's twisted version of the holy fire the Crusaders used in their fight against the undead? Nobody really knows. Will we ever see her again? It's possible -- her unique talents make her just the type of weapon the Forsaken would like to have in their control.

Some speculate that Lilian Voss would be an ideal person to lead the Forsaken, should something happen to Sylvanas Windrunner. But what they fail to realize is that Lilian would never fully ally herself with the Forsaken; to her, she is outside of life, outside of death, and utterly alone. Lilian isn't quite sane; her steadfast pursuit of the Scarlet Crusade borders on insanity, and her life in undeath is dedicated to other, more pressing tasks. 
Though Lilian herself is nowhere to be found in person, she's out there still, somewhere. And if in your travels you come across former encampments of a holy war, scarlet clad corpses bathed in violet fire, you can be certain that Lilian was there fighting a crusade of her own -- the eradication of her former life.


----------



## GusPolinski

Maricha75 said:


> Five?? I have a variety. Paladin is my main, but starting to love my shaman... and monk. Love the monk. I chose all healing classes. Well, except the dk. Actually, technically, the dk could fit that class, too... she's blood.


Tanking has traditionally been my focus, so I have (at least) one of each of the tank-capable classes. Of each of them, warriors are probably still the all-around best, as they offer more "per scenario" utilities than each of the others. Blood DKs are WAAAAAY OP, though... unless high amounts of magic damage are frequently involved.

Of each class, though, Paladins are (obviously) my favorite (I have one of each race), but that has as much to do w/ the lore as it does w/ the overall class mechanics. Having said that... stacking haste to maximize uptime for damage mitigation? F*cking LAME.


----------



## Nostromo

Oh boy, Rookie was miffed over his thread veering off into how adultery affects kids, he's gonna have a full blown aneurysm when he comes back and sees two whole pages of D&D talk.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Nostromo said:


> Oh boy, Rookie was miffed over his thread veering off into how adultery affects kids, he's gonna have a full blown aneurysm when he comes back and sees two whole pages of D&D talk.


WoW is not D&D!!


----------



## Wolf1974

Regret214 said:


> My children were either sleeping or Dig was home from a trip and watching them. I was less absent than one of his trips for work. I was gone as long as a shopping trip to the mall. You guys seem to be lumping everyone in with this singularity and then really dislike a differing point of view.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think everyone comes with thier own perspective based on what they went through. My role model of a mother to my two kids screwed her other man in my bed while I was out of town having surgery. My kids were in the next room sleeping.

Had they woken up and found that going on I may have actually lost my mind and ended some people. It's this one reason above all others I think of her and have told her I think she is a disgusting person and a terrible mother. Feel the same way today as I did the day I said these things to her. She is a horrible parent no doubt in my mind. Had she never done that in my house I would have never said that


----------



## Wolf1974

Nostromo said:


> Oh boy, Rookie was miffed over his thread veering off into how adultery affects kids, he's gonna have a full blown aneurysm when he comes back and sees two whole pages of D&D talk.


No worries I'm the only one who ever gets blamed for it. You're good


----------



## Regret214

Wolf1974 said:


> I think everyone comes with thier own perspective based on what they went through. My role model of a mother to my two kids screwed her other man in my bed while I was out of town having surgery. My kids were in the next room sleeping.
> 
> Had they woken up and found that going on I may have actually lost my mind and ended some people. It's this one reason above all others I think of her and have told her I think she is a disgusting person and a terrible mother. Feel the same way today as I did the day I said these things to her. She is a horrible parent no doubt in my mind. Had she never done that in my house I would have never said that


What a horrid thing to do. Which is paramount to understanding why people have their viewpoints.

See, my kids were very small and upstairs asleep. I had the xOM down in the basement because I was terrified of what could happen if they woke up in the middle of the night. I would never, ever imagine having sex with anyone but Dig in our bed. I know a lot of you won't understand that at all because I was already betraying him. However, I still had boundaries. Scoff if you will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

Regret214 said:


> What a horrid thing to do. Which is paramount to understanding why people have their viewpoints.
> 
> See, my kids were very small and upstairs asleep. I had the xOM down in the basement because I was terrified of what could happen if they woke up in the middle of the night. I would never, ever imagine having sex with anyone but Dig in our bed. I know a lot of you won't understand that at all because I was already betraying him. However, I still had boundaries. Scoff if you will.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you feel it's a boundary, and Dig accept this, I don't have any problem with this. My wife used to say something similar: "We usually fvcked in the shed while the kids watched TV inside..." - personally I don't find any comfort in that statement. I actually got a knot in my stomack just by writing it down. I respect that we're different though.


----------



## Regret214

Which is part in parcel as to us foreclosing on that home and walking away for his sanity. Dig struggled daily living in that home. Losing everything materialistic from there was the least I could do for his healing process.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

Regret214 said:


> What a horrid thing to do. Which is paramount to understanding why people have their viewpoints.
> 
> See, my kids were very small and upstairs asleep. I had the xOM down in the basement because I was terrified of what could happen if they woke up in the middle of the night. I would never, ever imagine having sex with anyone but Dig in our bed. I know a lot of you won't understand that at all because I was already betraying him. However, I still had boundaries. Scoff if you will.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This has got to be the loosest damned definition of 'boundaries' I've ever heard of, not to mention seriously flawed rationalization.

Damn, Regret.


----------



## cpacan

3putt said:


> This has got to be the loosest damned definition of 'boundaries' I've ever heard of, not to mention seriously flawed rationalization.
> 
> Damn, Regret.


Couldn't help smiling  I think you have to see the statement through the eyes of a disloyal spouse for this to make any sense. And for what we know, Regret earned the f in fWS.

I don't think Regret meant it as a current boundary. I expect that they have agreed on stronger boundaries than this one today.


----------



## Served Cold

Regret214 said:


> What a horrid thing to do. Which is paramount to understanding why people have their viewpoints.
> 
> See, my kids were very small and upstairs asleep. I had the xOM down in the basement because I was terrified of what could happen if they woke up in the middle of the night. I would never, ever imagine having sex with anyone but Dig in our bed. I know a lot of you won't understand that at all because I was already betraying him. However, I still had boundaries. Scoff if you will.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



This is so bloody sad. To say by having sex with OM in the basement of your home instead of your martial bed was a boundary is mind boggling. 

I hope I read this wrong.


----------



## 3putt

cpacan said:


> Couldn't help smiling  I think you have to see the statement through the eyes of a disloyal spouse for this to make any sense. And for what we know, Regret earned the f in fWS.
> 
> I don't think Regret meant it as a current boundary. I expect that they have agreed on stronger boundaries than this one today.


I hope I am wrong by what she meant. I really do.


----------



## Regret214

None of you are wrong. That was my thought process. It was STILL a boundary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

cpacan said:


> Couldn't help smiling  I think you have to see the statement through the eyes of a disloyal spouse for this to make any sense. And for what we know, Regret earned the f in fWS.
> 
> I don't think Regret meant it as a current boundary. I expect that they have agreed on stronger boundaries than this one today.


I've absolutely worked on those issues and Dig feels very strongly I deserve the f in fWS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

3putt said:


> I hope I am wrong by what she meant. I really do.


I don't believe that Dig would accept a boundary saying: You can have sex with other men as long as it stays in the basement. I don't think they would still be together if this was suggested.

I read it as an attempt to explain that she tried to shield the kids - and that it was how she rationalized it at the time.


----------



## 3putt

cpacan said:


> I don't believe that Dig would accept a boundary saying: You can have sex with other men as long as it stays in the basement. I don't think they would still be together if this was suggested.
> 
> I read it as an attempt to explain that she tried to shield the kids - and that it was how she rationalized it at the time.


I would hope he doesn't, but the fact of the matter is she didn't qualify her statement by saying that was how she felt in the midst of her affair. It was ambiguous at best.

I don't tend to give the benefit of doubt to FWSs when it comes to this on the CWI.

Make it clear. 

Of course, I could be hair splitting here as well. It's not like I haven't done that before


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Pluto2 said:


> A appreciate your response. I agree there can be strong negative brush strokes that don't help healing or a conversation.
> 
> Would you agree that brush strokes can go both ways and to say infidelity never harms kids (sure it does, but not always) or infidelity only happens in such and such situation is also equally inaccurate, and unhelpful.


I would most certainly agree with that. I put my foot in my mouth with the original statement I made. I was wrong.


----------



## Rookie4

vellocet said:


> You mean you think that someone that is putting their orgasm before their childrens' well being are being a good parent at the time?


No, I mean that being a rotten spouse doesn't mean you are a rotten parent.


----------



## Rookie4

Mr Blunt said:


> *You are basically calling my daughter and BetrayedAgain liars!*
> 
> I know what my daughter has said and I have witnessed her life for over 20 years. You have no experience with young children and the affect the berating parent has on them. When the free will choice of the parent is to betray the family and it hurts the children then that is a parent that is a bad parent during that time.
> 
> *Rookie you keep asking for proof and you have been given proof by the poster’s actual experiences yet you give no experiences or proof*.
> 
> You may have experience with stock car racing but you have no experience of how parents that betray the family affect young children.
> 
> 
> I have never said that my truth is the truth for the whole universe but I do know it is the truth for my family and your opinion for me has little or no credibility on this topic.


Subjective experience is not proof.


----------



## Rookie4

Regret214 said:


> Yes, my best friend is a product of a divorced family. His mother didn't cheat and neither did his adopted father. But, his adopted father mentally and physically abused him from age 5 until 17 when he walked out of the house with a baseball bat almost killing the adoptive father.
> 
> I'm quite certain it would've been soooo much worse on him if his mother had an affair though...
> 
> By the way, my best friend's name is Dig.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Glad to see you back, Regret.


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> ...being a rotten spouse doesn't *necessarily* mean you are a rotten parent... *but it might*.


Fixed that for you. 

At any rate, being a rotten spouse in full view of any children will (at the very least) give said children a pretty poor role model by which to gauge the behavior of a _good_ spouse.

Having said that, if said children are somewhat perceptive, and possessed of a certain self-awareness, they may very well be able to channel any bad examples given in order to do better themselves. Either way, which example should a good parent strive to provide?

And yes, I do realize that ^this is all very general.


----------



## Rookie4

Nostromo said:


> Oh boy, Rookie was miffed over his thread veering off into how adultery affects kids, he's gonna have a full blown aneurysm when he comes back and sees two whole pages of D&D talk.


Not miffed at all, because I simply do not have any idea what the f**K they are talking about. I wouldn't know D&D from Hogan's goat.


----------



## Rookie4

Never did any gaming. I s*ck as a typist, and have no interest in fantasy. I used to drive stock cars, until the Doc told me to quit, (too many broken bones) I used to play softball, until the Doc told me to quit (no knees left). So now I mainly hunt and fish and play dealer's choice poker. 
I used to play golf, and got pretty good at it, but after my last knee operation, I stopped for about a month, in order to recuperate. When I got back on the course, it was like I had never picked up a f88king club in my life. Man was I pissed off.


----------



## Rookie4

In order to be really good at golf, you MUST play every week, at least. BTW, What is WoW?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



3putt said:


> I hope I am wrong by what she meant. I really do.


She's written that before. Actually I am thankful for her honesty and openness. It shows the thought process that people go through in such situations. I'm sure if we all try really hard each of us can find situations where our thought processes was a little skewed. I know I can.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Rookie4 said:


> Subjective experience is not proof.


And you don't have any proof that it doesn't Rookie, so why are we all here debating about our own or another's subjective experience? That's all personal opinion ever is. Subjective. 

You would NEVER convince me that a WS is not harming their children in some way, because unlike you, I have been a child that has LIVED the experience and my brother and sister bear the painful sorrows and bruises of my mother's infidelity to this very day. 

You and everyone here would be horrified by the after effects of that infidelity were I to tell you the specifics of it, but why would I?

People believe what they want or need to believe and that's okay by me. Cognitive dissonance is an extremely powerful psychological defence mechanism and I'm not even remotely interested in going into bat with anyone over it.

Utterly pointless endlessly debating whose POV or subjective opinion is correct and whose isn't. :sleeping:


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> Mr Blunt said:
> 
> 
> 
> *You are basically calling my daughter and BetrayedAgain liars!*
> 
> I know what my daughter has said and I have witnessed her life for over 20 years. You have no experience with young children and the affect the berating parent has on them. When the free will choice of the parent is to betray the family and it hurts the children then that is a parent that is a bad parent during that time.
> 
> *Rookie you keep asking for proof and you have been given proof by the poster?s actual experiences yet you give no experiences or proof*.
> 
> You may have experience with stock car racing but you have no experience of how parents that betray the family affect young children.
> 
> 
> I have never said that my truth is the truth for the whole universe but I do know it is the truth for my family and your opinion for me has little or no credibility on this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> Subjective experience is not proof.
Click to expand...

Actually it is proof. It might not be repeatable and verifiable but it is proof. 

In these types of scenarios we have to accept these reports as proof, since there is no way to test and prove a hypothesis regarding this ideal. No agency would allow someone to take a human child and subject it to such atrocities solely to prove this hypothesis, therefor the best support we have are the individual reports (and if such testing is allowed there would be such a hard burden to maintain a control group and a subject group that had such close characteristics to be considered as likely candidates someone would always question it. Think about drug testing and how we determine side effects through testing. It is through subjective studies and the subjective results are accepted as proof, just not absolute proof. So the responses, subjective or not, are proof whether you accept them as such or not. )


----------



## Maricha75

Rookie4 said:


> In order to be really good at golf, you MUST play every week, at least. *BTW, What is WoW*?


World of Warcraft. I was delighted to learn quite a few on TAM also play.


----------



## Rookie4

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> And you don't have any proof that it doesn't Rookie, so why are we all here debating about our own or another's subjective experience? That's all personal opinion ever is. Subjective.
> 
> You would NEVER convince me that a WS is not harming their children in some way, because unlike you, I have been a child that has LIVED the experience and my brother and sister bear the painful sorrows and bruises of my mother's infidelity to this very day.
> 
> You and everyone here would be horrified by the after effects of that infidelity were I to tell you the specifics of it, but why would I?
> 
> People believe what they want or need to believe and that's okay by me. Cognitive dissonance is an extremely powerful psychological defence mechanism and I'm not even remotely interested in going into bat with anyone over it.
> 
> Utterly pointless endlessly debating whose POV or subjective opinion is correct and whose isn't. :sleeping:


Ok, then, you are entitled to your opinion.


----------



## Rookie4

Squeakr said:


> Actually it is proof. It might not be repeatable and verifiable but it is proof.
> 
> In these types of scenarios we have to accept these reports as proof, since there is no way to test and prove a hypothesis regarding this ideal. No agency would allow someone to take a human child and subject it to such atrocities solely to prove this hypothesis, therefor the best support we have are the individual reports (and if such testing is allowed there would be such a hard burden to maintain a control group and a subject group that had such close characteristics to be considered as likely candidates someone would always question it. Think about drug testing and how we determine side effects through testing. It is through subjective studies and the subjective results are accepted as proof, just not absolute proof. So the responses, subjective or not, are proof whether you accept them as such or not. )


The best way to get your point across is to state that it is your opinion, and not present it as an example of fact, when it clearly is not. Your opinion has no greater or lesser value than anybody else's. If you will look at the posts, most people will agree that SOME cheaters are bad parents, even I agree with that. I completely disagree that ALL cheaters are bad parents. Also, there is zero, zilch, nada, proof that the cheating CAUSED the bad parenting. BOTH can be caused by being a BAD PERSON.
ALL cheaters are guilty of cheating, but NOT ALL cheaters are guilty of anything else. I know some posters would like us to believe that the cheater is the lowest form of life on earth. I don't buy this, and never have. My ex wife had her faults, but she didn't have EVERY fault.


----------



## Rookie4

Maricha75 said:


> World of Warcraft. I was delighted to learn quite a few on TAM also play.


Ok, then, I guess I will have to look in and see what it is. Is it a fantasy scenerio type of game LIKE D&D?


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> Ok, then, I guess I will have to look in and see what it is. Is it a fantasy scenerio type of game LIKE D&D?


World of Warcraft


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> The best way to get your point across is to state that it is your opinion, and not present it as an example of fact, when it clearly is not. Your opinion has no greater or lesser value than anybody else's. If you will look at the posts, most people will agree that SOME cheaters are bad parents, even I agree with that. I completely disagree that ALL cheaters are bad parents. *Also, there is zero, zilch, nada, proof that the cheating CAUSED the bad parenting.* BOTH can be caused by being a BAD PERSON.
> ALL cheaters are guilty of cheating, but NOT ALL cheaters are guilty of anything else. I know some posters would like us to believe that the cheater is the lowest form of life on earth. I don't buy this, and never have. My ex wife had her faults, but she didn't have EVERY fault.


Since you are debating this I am going to point out the phallacies in your argument, as you seem to pick my posts apart as incorrect.

You state about making statements based upon your opinion and it being the best way to get a point across, and then you speak in absolutes (like the bolded) based upon your opinions. You know this to be truth how (where is your proof of this statement, as you request like proofs from others)? You are stating it is a fact/truth, but it is your opinion based upon your experience (some of the documentation and articles presented to the opposite you have written off as findings of opinion and not fact, which they may be, but they could sever as proof). Since what you state is an "absolute truth" then it should be provable, correct?

guilty adjective \ˈgil-tē\
: responsible for committing a crime or doing something bad or wrong

: showing that you know you have done something bad or wrong

: feeling bad because you have done something bad or wrong or because you believe you have done something bad or wrong

By this definition you can't say that all cheaters are guilty of cheating, as cheating isn't a crime in all cultures (few states in the US even consider it a crime) and several people seem to think that cheating isn't bad either (there are whole websites that the members share this philosophies, and just something that happens. Since it relies on someones opinion of right/wrong, good/bad it is a subjective statement. Where's your proof to back your claims?


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> Ok, then, I guess I will have to look in and see what it is. Is it a fantasy scenerio type of game LIKE D&D?


Yes, but it is an online only game (no free form role playing counterpart like D&D). It doesn't have the imagination of D&D at heart as due to it being a framework designed game, the appearances of entities and the possibilities aren't as free form and random as what one would encounter in a D&D campaign.


----------



## Rookie4

Squeakr said:


> Since you are debating this I am going to point out the phallacies in your argument, as you seem to pick my posts apart as incorrect.
> 
> You state about making statements based upon your opinion and it being the best way to get a point across, and then you speak in absolutes (like the bolded) based upon your opinions. You know this to be truth how (where is your proof of this statement, as you request like proofs from others)? You are stating it is a fact/truth, but it is your opinion based upon your experience (some of the documentation and articles presented to the opposite you have written off as findings of opinion and not fact, which they may be, but they could sever as proof). Since what you state is an "absolute truth" then it should be provable, correct?
> 
> guilty adjective \ˈgil-tē\
> : responsible for committing a crime or doing something bad or wrong
> 
> : showing that you know you have done something bad or wrong
> 
> : feeling bad because you have done something bad or wrong or because you believe you have done something bad or wrong
> 
> By this definition you can't say that all cheaters are guilty of cheating, as cheating isn't a crime in all cultures (few states in the US even consider it a crime) and several people seem to think that cheating isn't bad either (there are whole websites that the members share this philosophies, and just something that happens. Since it relies on someones opinion of right/wrong, good/bad it is a subjective statement. Where's your proof to back your claims?


See, that is the value of it being your opinion, that way you don't have to prove a damn thing. Now, you can attempt to disprove my statement, but if you are going to try, you will need to provide actual evidence, and as we all know, opinion is NOT evidence. You are arguing with yourself, but that's OK, too.


----------



## Rookie4

Squeakr said:


> Yes, but it is an online only game (no free form role playing counterpart like D&D). It doesn't have the imagination of D&D at heart as due to it being a framework designed game, the appearances of entities and the possibilities aren't as free form and random as what one would encounter in a D&D campaign.


That is way more info than I need. I've no intention of doing either. I sometimes play chess, on line, or contract bridge, but that is the extent of my internet gaming. I am interested in the concept of there being some posters who favor one over the other. Does any of this have anything to do with "Game of Thrones"? GF loves that show.


----------



## Squeakr

No it has nothing to do with GOT, unless they have added as aspect since it became popular. I myself have no interest in most gaming as a whole. It is just not something that interests me. If I play any type of computer game anymore, it is pretty much limited to word type games like scrabble and such.


----------



## Rookie4

Squeakr said:


> No it has nothing to do with GOT, unless they have added as aspect since it became popular. I myself have no interest in most gaming as a whole. It is just not something that interests me. If I play any type of computer game anymore, it is pretty much limited to word type games like scrabble and such.


Well, if it involves any serious typing, I will pass. I can do TAM and move chess pieces and cards, but I really suck as a typist. that is why I have the best secretary in the business, to keep me from fu*king up too much.


----------



## Thundarr

Good/bad parent and infidelity. No they aren't statically connected but yes there's a correlation IMO. It's often the symptoms of infidelity that harms children. Everyone including the kids are vulnerable when a parent is rationalizing and justifying and blame shifting.

As a kid (11), I didn't pay much attention to mom and dad bickering. I didn't notice that mom was depressed and I didn't know she started having an affair with some guy. Me, bro, and sis were happy being kids. But I noticed when she left and stayed gone for three months. Her rewriting of history and rationalizing that we were better off without her didn't make us better off at all. We were scared little kids. It gave her internal permission to continue an affair and run off with OM though. 

I remember playing outside but staying close enough to the house so if the phone rang, I'd get to it in time and the anxiety if I missed the call that could have been her. Well that's illogical but I was a kid. Fast forward to my first marriage which ended a long time ago. When things started going bad, I got clingy and even before things were bad, I had some 'nice guy' tendancies. That's common with adults who had separation anxiety growing up. At least the first time.

A lot of cases are less extreme than that but the dynamics are still there IMO. Kids can tell when mom or dad are suddenly less involved than they've been.


----------



## larry.gray

Rookie4 said:


> See, that is the value of it being your opinion, that way you don't have to prove a damn thing. Now, you can attempt to disprove my statement, but if you are going to try, you will need to provide actual evidence, and as we all know, opinion is NOT evidence. You are arguing with yourself, but that's OK, too.


The problem with saying "it's only my opinion" is that's the out people use for having a crap position and not wanting to have to defend it.

There are ideas and opinions that are just plain stupid. As an example: 

"It's my opinion that vaccines don't work and kids shouldn't get them."

"Well scientific proof very convincingly refutes your position."

"I don't care, it's my opinion and I get to have any opinion I want without having to defend it."

"Well, your advice will kill people."


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> Now, you can attempt to disprove my statement, but if you are going to try, you will need to provide actual evidence, and as we all know, opinion is NOT evidence.


Funny but everyone else's statements are met with challenges and the burden of proof lies on them to "back and prove" their statements by your charges. Yet you make the same types of claims and now the burden lies on them to disprove your claims. You never state it is your opinion and also assert it in such a way that you come across as an authority on the subject. Just because you believe it a certain way doesn't make it so.

Actually by variants of the definition, an opinion can be evidence (see variants 2 and 3 below), you just don't recognize it as such therefor it isn't in YOUR mind correct (as expert opinions are accepted in court as evidence to prove or disprove a judgment or theory)?

(opin·ion noun \ə-ˈpin-yən\
: a belief, judgment, or way of thinking about something : what someone thinks about a particular thing

: advice from someone with special knowledge : advice from an expert

: a formal statement by a judge, court, etc., explaining the reasons a decision was made according to laws or rules)


I agree with Larry's summation.


----------



## Thundarr

larry.gray said:


> The problem with saying "it's only my opinion" is that's the out people use for having a crap position and not wanting to have to defend it.
> 
> There are ideas and opinions that are just plain stupid. As an example:
> 
> "It's my opinion that vaccines don't work and kids shouldn't get them."
> 
> "Well scientific proof very convincingly refutes your position."
> 
> "I don't care, it's my opinion and I get to have any opinion I want without having to defend it."
> 
> "Well, your advice will kill people."


A related topic on values vs principles is pointed out in 'The Seven Habits' by Stephen R. Covey‎. When they don't align, principles win. It's because principles are based in logic and consequence where values may or may not be.


----------



## Rookie4

larry.gray said:


> The problem with saying "it's only my opinion" is that's the out people use for having a crap position and not wanting to have to defend it.
> 
> There are ideas and opinions that are just plain stupid. As an example:
> 
> "It's my opinion that vaccines don't work and kids shouldn't get them."
> 
> "Well scientific proof very convincingly refutes your position."
> 
> "I don't care, it's my opinion and I get to have any opinion I want without having to defend it."
> 
> "Well, your advice will kill people."


Have you been following the thread , at all? We were talking about subjective opinions. Your example doesn't quite fill the bill, does it? You can easily prove by factual , objective means that your given example is hoss crap. So it does not apply at all.


----------



## Rookie4

Squeakr said:


> Funny but everyone else's statements are met with challenges and the burden of proof lies on them to "back and prove" their statements by your charges. Yet you make the same types of claims and now the burden lies on them to disprove your claims. You never state it is your opinion and also assert it in such a way that you come across as an authority on the subject. Just because you believe it a certain way doesn't make it so.
> 
> Actually by variants of the definition, an opinion can be evidence (see variants 2 and 3 below), you just don't recognize it as such therefor it isn't in YOUR mind correct (as expert opinions are accepted in court as evidence to prove or disprove a judgment or theory)?
> 
> (opin·ion noun \ə-ˈpin-yən\
> : a belief, judgment, or way of thinking about something : what someone thinks about a particular thing
> 
> : advice from someone with special knowledge : advice from an expert
> 
> : a formal statement by a judge, court, etc., explaining the reasons a decision was made according to laws or rules)
> 
> 
> I agree with Larry's summation.


That's OK, you are allowed to agree with anything you want to. But, I'm not going to argue about it any more. So carry on.


----------



## Rookie4

Thundarr said:


> A related topic on values vs principles is pointed out in 'The Seven Habits' by Stephen R. Covey‎. When they don't align, principles win. It's because principles are based in logic and consequence where values may or may not be.


Both principles and values are based on subjective reasoning, so what is the difference? Always remember what George Carlin used to say about "one man's tuna is another man's cat food".


----------



## Regret214

I made Dig a tuna sandwich for his lunch box tonight.


Or did I????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Regret214 said:


> I made Dig a tuna sandwich for his lunch box tonight.
> 
> 
> Or did I????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, did the can say Chicken of the Sea, or fancy feast?


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> Well, did the can say Chicken of the Sea, or fancy feast?


:lol:

That one had me audibly chuckling at my desk.


----------



## lenzi

vellocet said:


> I have a friend that to this day will not talk to his mother for cheating on his father. He DOES consider her a bad parent.
> 
> In his mind his mother didn't think enough about him to keep them crossed. Thank goodness he decided not to let her punish his father further by adding insult to injury of losing his child and having to pay her for that privilege.


So if mom had divorced dad before having sex with someone else, would she now qualify as a "good" parent?

Or, are you saying that _every_ parent that willingly divorces and causes turmoil for their children is a bad parent?


----------



## Regret214

Rookie4 said:


> Well, did the can say Chicken of the Sea, or fancy feast?


He didn't specify. But Starkist was in the pantry so that's really what he got. He's on a 10 hour shift and I know that's not gonna hold him even though I made 2.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lenzi

Here's what I got from this thread. 

Cheaters aren't necessarily bad parents. They "might be", bad parents, and there's a good chance they "are" bad parents, but they aren't necessarily bad parents just because they cheat. 

They're bad parents if they're neglecting their kids to spend time with the affair partner, but then again any parent that neglects their kids to do something other than parenting could be a bad parent. It's not the cheating, it's the neglect.

So a mother who goes out with her girlfriends a few times per week could be just as bad a parent as a mother who goes over to OMs house and screws him a few nights per week, or a guy who spends hours per night playing an online game rather than playing softball with his kids- there's no difference.

A cheater might be a bad parent if they let on about the affair to their kids because they're a bad role model. 

So..

A cheating spouse who keeps everything secret and keeps the marriage together so the kids don't have to be uprooted, and who gives the children sufficient time and attention is NOT a bad parent, in fact, they're a better parent than someone who divorces their spouse and uproots the family for what is considered "unjustified reasons" such as "they are sick and tired of their spouse".

Got it.


Thanks to the posters on this thread who cleared all this up for me.


----------



## soccermom2three

My BIL has told us that my SIL has been totally disengaged from their kids since the start of her affair. She pretty much does just the basics. 

Before she moved out, she was on her phone A LOT and when BIL would ask where mom was, my nieces would say that SIL was upstairs texting in her bedroom all day. When she walked through the door after being gone all day at work, the girls were so excited to see her and want hugs and kisses but she would shoo them away because she was on her phone. When he asked her to finish up with the phone before she walks in the front door, she says he's "controlling". 

A few months ago, one of my nieces was having a meltdown and SIL couldn't handle it. She had to bring my niece home to my BIL to take care of it. I think the girls have figured out what's really going on now because "mommy's friend" and his kid's are hanging around and the meltdown was the result of it. Mommy made it sound so fun that they were going to have a 2nd bedroom at her apartment and pickup new furniture and bedding, blah, blah. They are figuring out it's not so fun now.

ETA: What's funny, is my BIL is a very involved dad, always has been. When he's doing his regular dad stuff with the girls, taking them places or for ice cream, (stuff he's always done), SIL tells him that he's just trying to be "fun dad" and make her look bad, lol.


----------



## bfree

You know, it's funny. All these first hand accounts of how infidelity adversely affected the WS's parenting skills with only Maricha's aunt being the lone exception. And yet somehow they are all just "opinions" and "don't prove anything." Well, if they don't prove anything what will?


----------



## Gary_Smith

I have been wayward.

There was a time when my wife was in the hospital and I was sitting home alone. I clicked a link from an email that appeared to be something else but it linked to a photo of a woman in her underwear with her Skype ID right beside it. Of course I called. We started text chatting and she asked me where I live. I told her and she offered me five free minutes of video. Of course I accepted. We turned on our webcams and she took her shirt off. Then she told me she lived nearby and made an offer. Of course I accepted. This was over two years ago and my wife does not know. However, I do still think about this woman and my wife has caught me "thinking" about her and got upset. I feel so guilty. Should I tell her?


----------



## lenzi

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Gary_Smith said:


> I have been wayward.
> 
> she offered me five free minutes of video. she took her shirt off. Then she told me she lived nearby and made an offer. However, my wife has caught me "thinking" about her and got upset. I feel so guilty. Should I tell her?


You're not supposed to troll AND threadjack in the same post.


----------



## larry.gray

bfree said:


> You know, it's funny. All these first hand accounts of how infidelity adversely affected the WS's parenting skills with only Maricha's aunt being the lone exception. And yet somehow they are all just "opinions" and "don't prove anything." Well, if they don't prove anything what will?


My personal experience would tend towards the significantly negatively impacting parenting but then you never can take anything in isolation.

A good 1/3 of the experiences in my friends, relatives and acquaintances were the result of walk away wives. Now the question among those is how many were the result of simply being an exit affair and the infidelity had little to do with things and how often was it the 'fog' screwing up the marriage?

I'm sure each spouse in those relationships won't agree themselves on it, so to an outsider a definitive answer would be impossible to define. I just somehow doubt cheating helped keep it together.

Among the rest - even then it's hard to say. Some stayed together but I'm sure it stressed the marriage. Some broke up over it. Two of my uncles for example, it was just an opportunity they took in a relatively happy marriage; one of those "men are pigs" type affairs and it blew up their marriage. Some were too late to matter. That was the case for me. I was nearly 40 when my mom started cheating.


----------



## Rookie4

Code:







bfree said:


> You know, it's funny. All these first hand accounts of how infidelity adversely affected the WS's parenting skills with only Maricha's aunt being the lone exception. And yet somehow they are all just "opinions" and "don't prove anything." Well, if they don't prove anything what will?


How about facts. If you are going to accuse, you might want to have factual evidence. Subjective, hearsay , or anecdotal evidence proves nothing.
I will give you an example. I had some dental work done, so automatically I heard every single dentist horror story there was. If I reasoned as you do, and if all of the stories were true, then I wouldn't ever go to the dentist. But, I realize that not all of the stories are unbiased fact, and that not all dentists are jawbreakers. It's the same thing. I will agree that SOME cheaters are bad parents, but not that ALL cheaters are bad parents. So , if you make the statement that ALL cheaters are bad parents and that their bad parenting was caused by the cheating, then you are wrong , until you prove you are right, by facts, not stories.


----------



## Thundarr

lenzi said:


> Here's what I got from this thread.
> 
> Cheaters aren't necessarily bad parents. They "might be", bad parents, and there's a good chance they "are" bad parents, but they aren't necessarily bad parents just because they cheat.
> 
> They're bad parents if they're neglecting their kids to spend time with the affair partner, but then again any parent that neglects their kids to do something other than parenting could be a bad parent. It's not the cheating, it's the neglect.
> 
> So a mother who goes out with her girlfriends a few times per week could be just as bad a parent as a mother who goes over to OMs house and screws him a few nights per week, or a guy who spends hours per night playing an online game rather than playing softball with his kids- there's no difference.
> 
> A cheater might be a bad parent if they let on about the affair to their kids because they're a bad role model.
> 
> So..
> 
> A cheating spouse who keeps everything secret and keeps the marriage together so the kids don't have to be uprooted, and who gives the children sufficient time and attention is NOT a bad parent, in fact, they're a better parent than someone who divorces their spouse and uproots the family for what is considered "unjustified reasons" such as "they are sick and tired of their spouse".
> 
> Got it.
> 
> 
> Thanks to the posters on this thread who cleared all this up for me.


I don't know your story Lenzi and that's my fault. But really your post is a jab at other posters and nothing more. I don't know which ones but it's a jab none the less. Maybe even deserved but I don't know.


----------



## Rookie4

Thundarr said:


> I don't know your story Lenzi and that's my fault. But really your post is a jab at other posters and nothing more. I don't know which ones but it's a jab none the less. Maybe even deserved but I don't know.


Actually, I see it more as a parry than a jab.


----------



## Thundarr

Rookie4 said:


> Actually, I see it more as a parry than a jab.


Parry is defense, not counter strike.


----------



## Regret214

All of a sudden, an old Buggs Bunny episode with Porky Pig as Friar Tuck comes to mind...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Regret214 said:


> All of a sudden, an old Buggs Bunny episode with Porky Pig as Friar Tuck comes to mind...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't want to be smug about it, but you would spend more time making a good lunch for Dig, instead of watching cartoons. Just sayin. How can any man exist on only two measly sammidges. How about pickles, chips or a cupcake? Or a slab of homemade pie? Although I'm guessing that Dig will get some pie when he gets home.


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> Actually, I see it more as a parry than a jab.


Eh...



Thundarr said:


> Parry is defense, not counter strike.


Well, actually...

Riposte - Spell - World of Warcraft



Regret214 said:


> All of a sudden, an old Buggs Bunny episode with Porky Pig as Friar Tuck comes to mind...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cuihrjLNAo


----------



## Regret214

Rookie4 said:


> Don't want to be smug about it, but you would spend more time making a good lunch for Dig, instead of watching cartoons. Just sayin. How can any man exist on only two measly sammidges. How about pickles, chips or a cupcake? Or a slab of homemade pie? Although I'm guessing that Dig will get some pie when he gets home.


He also got a MetRx bar and 4oz of cheddar in his lunch box! So there! Also, do not even try to get between Dig or me when it comes to Looney Tunes. That could be disastrous.

As for Dig getting pie...well, he'll have to wait until Friday as his shift schedule this week has him working 4pm to 1am. It's a downer actually, but they had to take him off a site due to how hard he works, which translated into him almost getting executed by the Bloods this past Sunday. No kidding, either. It was quite frightening to hear. Of course he's all "it's part of the job". Until he gets out of security work and into the sheriff's office, I'm going to have a tough time sleeping!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

Regret214 said:


> He also got a MetRx bar and 4oz of cheddar in his lunch box! So there! Also, do not even try to get between Dig or me when it comes to Looney Tunes. That could be disastrous.
> 
> As for Dig getting pie...well, he'll have to wait until Friday as his shift schedule this week has him working 4pm to 1am. It's a downer actually, but they had to take him off a site due to how hard he works, which translated into him almost getting executed by the Bloods this past Sunday. No kidding, either. It was quite frightening to hear. Of course he's all "it's part of the job". Until he gets out of security work and into the sheriff's office, I'm going to have a tough time sleeping!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good to see you back


----------



## Rookie4

Gary_Smith said:


> I have been wayward.
> 
> There was a time when my wife was in the hospital and I was sitting home alone. I clicked a link from an email that appeared to be something else but it linked to a photo of a woman in her underwear with her Skype ID right beside it. Of course I called. We started text chatting and she asked me where I live. I told her and she offered me five free minutes of video. Of course I accepted. We turned on our webcams and she took her shirt off. Then she told me she lived nearby and made an offer. Of course I accepted. This was over two years ago and my wife does not know. However, I do still think about this woman and my wife has caught me "thinking" about her and got upset. I feel so guilty. Should I tell her?


Pard, we will need a lot more info , to give you any good advice. If you are trolling, never mind.


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> Eh...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, actually...
> 
> Riposte - Spell - World of Warcraft
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cuihrjLNAo


Oh, No! Another gamer!! The humanity!!!


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> Oh, No! Another gamer!! The humanity!!!


"My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
While I draw breath, they shall not perish.
So long as they live, our enemies will fall.
I am defender, protector, guardian.
I am a Paladin."


----------



## Rookie4

Regret214 said:


> He also got a MetRx bar and 4oz of cheddar in his lunch box! So there! Also, do not even try to get between Dig or me when it comes to Looney Tunes. That could be disastrous.
> 
> As for Dig getting pie...well, he'll have to wait until Friday as his shift schedule this week has him working 4pm to 1am. It's a downer actually, but they had to take him off a site due to how hard he works, which translated into him almost getting executed by the Bloods this past Sunday. No kidding, either. It was quite frightening to hear. Of course he's all "it's part of the job". Until he gets out of security work and into the sheriff's office, I'm going to have a tough time sleeping!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm more a Tom and jerry , man, myself.Uncle Pecos Tom and Jerry Crambo w/ lyrics - YouTube


----------



## clipclop2

Kids, I might come back to read this later but nah, not for a while.

If S B wants us we are here for her.


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> "My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
> While I draw breath, they shall not perish.
> So long as they live, our enemies will fall.
> I am defender, protector, guardian.
> I am a Paladin."


Isn't Paladin the guy on the old westerns ?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Rookie4 said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about facts. If you are going to accuse, you might want to have factual evidence. Subjective, hearsay , or anecdotal evidence proves nothing.
> I will give you an example. I had some dental work done, so automatically I heard every single dentist horror story there was. If I reasoned as you do, and if all of the stories were true, then I wouldn't ever go to the dentist. But, I realize that not all of the stories are unbiased fact, and that not all dentists are jawbreakers. It's the same thing. I will agree that SOME cheaters are bad parents, but not that ALL cheaters are bad parents. So , if you make the statement that ALL cheaters are bad parents and that their bad parenting was caused by the cheating, then you are wrong , until you prove you are right, by facts, not stories.


Ok, how do we obtain those facts other than personal experience and first hand reports? What evidence would be acceptable in your mind?


----------



## Maricha75

bfree said:


> You know, it's funny. All these first hand accounts of how infidelity adversely affected the WS's parenting skills with only Maricha's aunt being the lone exception. And yet somehow they are all just "opinions" and "don't prove anything." Well, if they don't prove anything what will?


While it's true that my aunt's situation is the exception to the majority of cases here, my only reason for posting about her in the first place is because it shows that there are no absolutes. I do agree that infidelity devastates many families. 

My grandmother (dad's mom) divorced my step-grandfather because he was cheating. I believe most, if not all, of their kids were grown and nearly all out of the house by that time. Grandma loved grandpa, but she couldn't remain married to him. She never remarried, nor did he.

My mom's brother cheated on his wife with her sister, after the kids were all grown, and they ended up separating. Never divorced, and she still loved him til the day he died. The kids didn't condone his actions. But they forgave him, as did his wife.

My dad's sister's husband recently cheated on her with their grandchild's mother. Yea, that's one screwed up situation right there! She kicked him out. He ended the affair. They are back together. That's all I know about the whole thing. 

Mom's dad, I believe, cheated on his first wife... with my grandmother. He divorced his first wife and married my grandma. Never stepped out on her. His first wife forgave him, as did two of his kids from that marriage. The third, however, hated him til he died. He came to the funeral, and complained that grandpa didn't have a decent burial (as far as he was concerned). He hated mom, my aunt, and my uncle because they took grandpa from his mom. His mom loved my mom, aunt, and uncle like her own, too. The only one full of hate and resentment was that one uncle. I don't even remember seeing him at the funeral (1986, and I was just a kid), and I haven't seen him since.

And then, there were my former neighbors. She claimed he was a horrible person, horrible dad. She was the stereotype of what has been posted here about waywards. She rewrote history. She made him out to be a monster. I questioned, at first. But she was my friend. I saw her all the time, with the kids. I rarely saw him doing anything... and he was home all the time, too. When the truth about her affair came out, they separated. At first, he wanted to reconcile. But she wanted the AP. She ended up marrying the AP and he got married to a great woman. The truth about EVERYTHING came out. I apologized to him for my part in how she acted, and for being so quick to believe her, rather than hearing both sides. He's nothing like she described. And he has custody of the kids, while she has visitation. The kids love their step-mom. I have seen how they have blossomed with them.

I could come up with a dozen examples of families who were adversely affected, but not traumatized...or even examples of those who have better relationships now than they did before, even after separating/divorcing. But all it will take is ONE example of a family who was ripped apart, devastated, to negate each and every one of those examples. But, I will agree that many, if not most, families touched by infidelity are completely devastated. But there ARE some who are better afterward. And there are some who have much worse to deal with (this from THEM, not just me).


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Ok, how do we obtain those facts other than personal experience and first hand reports? What evidence would be acceptable in your mind?


None, whatsoever, because I am not interested in trying to prove absolutes, and crucifying non believers.. I am confident that all cheaters cannot be painted with the same brush, any more than all BS's are saints or sinners. PLus, I am sure that cheating doesn't CAUSE bad parenting, being a bad person does. 
I look at it as an evasion of responsibility, to say that cheating made me a bad parent. It's like saying that the devil made me do it. If you are a bad parent, own it, and try to be better. I've know several people who have cheated and are pretty good parents. So if you want to debate subjective experiences, we can go on like this forever.


----------



## Rookie4

Lookit, Bfree. I was elected to the Board of Governors to replace another man, who was fired. This guy was a legend at our company. A church goer, a great husband and father, and one of the men who helped build this company from the ground up. Plus he was a really, really great guy and close friend. I don't know how many awards this guy won, but he was always getting something or other.
Come to find out, he was downloading confidential company documents and selling the info to competitors, and had been doing this for years. He was a bad person, and did bad things, but he didn't do EVERY bad thing. If you think that cheating causes you to be a bad person, aren't you putting the cart before the horse?


----------



## GusPolinski

While red, watery eyes, coughing, wheezing, and sneezing don't cause me to have the flu, when someone sees me, and notices all of that, they're able to quickly determine that I probably have the flu.


----------



## Regret214

It could be EV-D68.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Regret214 said:


> It could be EV-D68.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ugh! We suspect that my brother-in-law had that. Thank goodness he has improved. It still gappened, but you wouldn't know it to look at him now.


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> While red, watery eyes, coughing, wheezing, and sneezing don't cause me to have the flu, when someone sees me, and notices all of that, they're able to quickly determine that I probably have the flu.


you probably have hay fever,


----------



## GusPolinski

Regret214 said:


> It could be EV-D68.


/target GusPolinski
/cast Cleanse


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



GusPolinski said:


> /target GusPolinski
> /cast Cleanse


Speaking of cleanse... is there a way for a paladin to get that debuff off with those timeless frogs, WITHOUT bubbling or running?


----------



## Rookie4

Maricha75 said:


> Speaking of cleanse... is there a way for a paladin to get that debuff off with those timeless frogs, WITHOUT bubbling or running?


HunH?  WTF are you talking about?:scratchhead:


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> he was downloading confidential company documents and selling the info to competitors, and had been doing this for years. * He was a bad person*, and did bad things, but he didn't do EVERY bad thing. If you think that cheating causes you to be a bad person, aren't you putting the cart before the horse?


Huh, you lost me? You tout all of his accolades and good points, then state he did something bad and then immediately say he is a bad person, but if someone cheats, we are not allowed to call them a bad person because we are now putting the cart before the horse?? What has changed and how is that situation different (as the one bad action has made him a bad person but cheating, a bad action, doesn't elicit the same result to the cheaters)??

Please explain this, as I am not following the logic here (and I am not saying all cheaters are bad, just trying to figure out how you differentiate one situation from another when the scenarios are very similar).


----------



## Regret214

GusPolinski said:


> /target GusPolinski
> /cast Cleanse


LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Squeakr said:


> Huh, you lost me? You tout all of his accolades and good points, then state he did something bad and then immediately say he is a bad person, but if someone cheats, we are not allowed to call them a bad person because we are now putting the cart before the horse?? What has changed and how is that situation different (as the one bad action has made him a bad person but cheating, a bad action, doesn't elicit the same result to the cheaters)??
> 
> Please explain this, as I am not following the logic here.


If somebody cheats, of course you are allowed to call them a cheater, and they are bad people. But they are only guilty of that single issue. They are not automatically guilty of anything else. This guy was still a good father and husband and never cheated on his wife. He was guilty of other things. Some cheaters are not guilty of being bad parents , but are guilty of cheating.
What I meant about putting the cart before the horse, is simply that. Cheating is an action, so you were a bad person , before you cheated. Cheating is not spontaneous.


----------



## GusPolinski

Maricha75 said:


> Speaking of cleanse... is there a way for a paladin to get that debuff off with those timeless frogs, WITHOUT bubbling or running?


Not sure (though I suspect not). I usually just avoid them.


----------



## Maricha75

GusPolinski said:


> Not sure (though I suspect not). I usually just avoid them.


Quite difficult when my husband says "let's go kill frogs"... because it's one of the quickest ways to get the daily elites killed. I'd prefer the fire guys. You know... more rep! 


*sorry Rookie*


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> If somebody cheats, of course you are allowed to call them a cheater, and they are bad people. But they are only guilty of that single issue. They are not automatically guilty of anything else. This guy was still a good father and husband and never cheated on his wife. He was guilty of other things. Some cheaters are not guilty of being bad parents , but are guilty of cheating.
> What I meant about putting the cart before the horse, is simply that. *Cheating is an action, so you were a bad person , before you cheated.* Cheating is not spontaneous.


Still not following you fully I guess. From your bolded statement, you are saying that cheaters were bad people before they cheated. So it is not possible for a good person to cheat? How do you reason and measure someone being a bad person if all they have really ever done bad was cheat, as you state they were a bad person before the cheating?? Or am I misunderstanding this as the ways you have written it are very vague to me, as we have been discussing cheaters being bad parents during their cheating times and this seems disconnected logic.


----------



## GusPolinski

Ugh... rep grinding. For the most part, if I can't get exalted by throwing on a tabard and running heroics, then I don't want it. I don't raid anymore (other than an occasionally LFR), so there's really no point anyway. Well... aside from a semi-OCD-ish need to see all of my rep bars maxed out.

Let's see if we can trigger Rookie's enrage timer w/ WoW talk.


----------



## Wolf1974

lenzi said:


> So if mom had divorced dad before having sex with someone else, would she now qualify as a "good" parent?
> 
> Or, are you saying that _every_ parent that willingly divorces and causes turmoil for their children is a bad parent?


Certainly changes a dynamic doesn't it. Mom and dad got divorced because they tried but couldn't work things out from mom had an affair and left us.

Dunno haven't been a kiddo in that position since my mother and father were mature about thier relationship and put each other and the kids first but I sould suspect that scenario one would have stung but is understandable. Scenario two is painful to hear that mom valued something more than the kids.


----------



## Rookie4

Squeakr said:


> Still not following you fully I guess. From your bolded statement, you are saying that cheaters were bad people before they cheated. So it is not possible for a good person to cheat? How do you reason and measure someone being a bad person if all they have really ever done bad was cheat, as you state they were a bad person before the cheating?? Or am I misunderstanding this as the ways you have written it are very vague to me, as we have been discussing cheaters being bad parents during their cheating times and this seems disconnected logic.


Frankly, I think all cheaters are bad people. But only bad people in one aspect of their lives. I don't automatically think they are bad people in other aspects..


----------



## Regret214

Rookie4 said:


> Frankly, I think all cheaters are bad people. But only bad people in one aspect of their lives. I don't automatically think they are bad people in other aspects..


Either people understand the concept of compartmentalization or they don't. I had no idea really until IC.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Regret214 said:


> Either people understand the concept of compartmentalization or they don't. I had no idea really until IC.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People also have trouble with the concept of cause and effect. Sweetie is one of those people.


----------



## Squeakr

We could go on all day about concepts that people have issues and trouble with comprehension of, such as fact, truth, lie, commitment, justification, etc.


----------



## convert

Regret214 said:


> Either people understand the concept of compartmentalization or they don't. I had no idea really until IC.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


good point, my wife never could compartmentalize that is why/how i could catch her in her affairs. I new something was wrong by the way she was acting.

If she could compartmentalize she could of went on a lot longer without me catching her, but then i don't know what would be worse a long term affair or multiple short term affair/ONS?

Missthelovin's wife could compartmentalize very well.
Regret214 please forgive me and correct me if I am wrong but I think you compartmentalize also very well


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Regret214 said:


> Either people understand the concept of compartmentalization or they don't. I had no idea really until IC.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do understand the concept of compartmentalization. You can't be an addict and not compartmentalize and now looking back I was a master. But also looking back I now realize that when I thought I wasn't hurting someone I really was. Do I think cheaters are bad people? While they are cheating yes but not necessarily at all other points in life. Do I think that cheaters are bad parents? I think the very act of cheating means that at that time they are. They might be wonderful parents before infidelity. They may be wonderful parents after they end the negative behavior. But cheating damages families and children so the very fact that someone cheats means they are not a good parent regardless of how well or much they otherwise parent. When I was an addict I didn't do everything wrong. I let little old ladies cross the street. I did help out friends on occasion. I didn't kill anyone. I was not bad 24/7. But during that period in my life I was a bad person. I was not a good person that did a bad thing. I was bad...period. There is no denying it and trying to insist otherwise is avoiding the full responsibility of my actions and minimizing the damage I caused.


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## Rookie4

bfree said:


> I do understand the concept of compartmentalization. You can't be an addict and not compartmentalize and now looking back I was a master. But also looking back I now realize that when I thought I wasn't hurting someone I really was. Do I think cheaters are bad people? While they are cheating yes but not necessarily at all other points in life. Do I think that cheaters are bad parents? I think the very act of cheating means that at that time they are. They might be wonderful parents before infidelity. They may be wonderful parents after they end the negative behavior. But cheating damages families and children so the very fact that someone cheats means they are not a good parent regardless of how well or much they otherwise parent. When I was an addict I didn't do everything wrong. I let little old ladies cross the street. I did help out friends on occasion. I didn't kill anyone. I was not bad 24/7. But during that period in my life I was a bad person. I was not a good person that did a bad thing. I was bad...period. There is no denying it and trying to insist otherwise is avoiding the full responsibility of my actions and minimizing the damage I caused.


You see, Bfree, I agree with almost everything you say. Except the one sentence. " I think the very act of cheating means that at the time they are" But I do appreciate that you said"I think". Which indicates that it is your opinion, and I can get fully on board with supporting your right to express your opinion.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Squeakr said:


> We could go on all day about concepts that people have issues and trouble with comprehension of, such as fact, truth, lie, commitment, justification, etc.


Truth. We have been going back and forth talking about bad versus good, opinion versus fact etc. Here's the facts. When you cheat you will noisy likely harm the children. You can harm children in other ways. If you feed a child spoiled food they might get sick. They might even die. However, they might also be fine. Would anyone here call a parent that knowingly takes that chance a good parent? Then you cannot call a parent committing infidelity a good parent because they're taking a similar chance with the welfare of their children.

As for opinion vs. fact. Does smoking cause cancer? I think the vast majority of intelligent people would say yes. Scientists have concluded that as fact just like researchers have concluded that infidelity harms children. Are there exceptions? Of course. I have known people that smoked all their lives and not had cancer. Did that disprove the fact that smoking causes cancer. No. In fact the exception proves the rule. There are exceptions when infidelity didn't harm the children. Those exceptions also prove the rule. And you cannot be a good parent if you knowingly do something to harm your children.


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## Regret214

I'm sorry bfree, but I was not a bad parent for 5 years, so I'll refuse to bear the brunt of that idea. You talk about substance abuse and are attempting to equate that to an affair. The difference that I see is that I saw the xOM once every two months hardly what an alcoholic or drug addict lives daily. I think that is where things differ.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Regret214 said:


> I'm sorry bfree, but I was not a bad parent for 5 years, so I'll refuse to bear the brunt of that idea. You talk about substance abuse and are attempting to equate that to an affair. The difference that I see is that I saw the xOM once every two months hardly what an alcoholic or drug addict lives daily. I think that is where things differ.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did you risk your children's family? Did you risk their future? Did you risk risk the potential of them having problems in their adult lives had you and Dig not been able to salvage the marriage? With all due respect, abd you know I respect the heck out of you, every time you met with the OM you risked harming your children. I can't see any other way to look at it.


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## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Truth. We have been going back and forth talking about bad versus good, opinion versus fact etc. Here's the facts. When you cheat you will noisy likely harm the children. You can harm children in other ways. If you feed a child spoiled food they might get sick. They might even die. However, they might also be fine. Would anyone here call a parent that knowingly takes that chance a good parent? Then you cannot call a parent committing infidelity a good parent because they're taking a similar chance with the welfare of their children.
> 
> As for opinion vs. fact. Does smoking cause cancer? I think the vast majority of intelligent people would say yes. Scientists have concluded that as fact just like researchers have concluded that infidelity harms children. Are there exceptions? Of course. I have known people that smoked all their lives and not had cancer. Did that disprove the fact that smoking causes cancer. No. In fact the exception proves the rule. There are exceptions when infidelity didn't harm the children. Those exceptions also prove the rule. And you cannot be a good parent if you knowingly do something to harm your children.


Then you start to make sweeping generalizations and universal pronouncements, with no facts whatsoever. Cancer=infidelity? Apples and oranges.


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## Squeakr

Regret214 said:


> I'm sorry bfree, but I was not a bad parent for 5 years, so I'll refuse to bear the brunt of that idea. You talk about substance abuse and are attempting to equate that to an affair. The difference that I see is that I saw the xOM once every two months hardly what an alcoholic or drug addict lives daily. I think that is where things differ.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not trying to sound accusatory here, but you were in your basement screwing the OM with your kids upstairs and feel that is the behavior a good parent does??? (By your calculations that means that this happened approximately 30 times over the five year period, and how many times did you steal moments from the kids during that 5 years to chat/text/email/whatever with the OM when you should have been focused on your kids? Wow that is almost as many times as I got sex from my wife during the same time period. I was a schmuck obviously.)

By your logic could one not assume that they weren't a bad parent and shouldn't be considered a child abuser as they only hit their child a few times during the 18-21 years they were being raised in their house or not neglectful as they only left their child unsupervised a handful of times ands therefor were no bad parents as well??

Correct me if I am wrong somewhere here, as I am trying to understand this.


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## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> Then you start to make sweeping generalizations and universal pronouncements, with no facts whatsoever. Cancer=infidelity? Apples and oranges.


You have done the same. When challenged on your proof for your generalized statements, you just blow it off and shift the focus away stating that they are your opinions. They are stated as absolutes and never as your opinion, so provide your facts and proof against it. Even sounds scientific claims have a negative use case to prove the positives.


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## Regret214

bfree said:


> Did you risk your children's family? Did you risk their future? Did you risk risk the potential of them having problems in their adult lives had you and Dig not been able to salvage the marriage? With all due respect, abd you know I respect the heck out of you, every time you met with the OM you risked harming your children. I can't see any other way to look at it.


Yes, I fully understand that I risked losing everything with my decisions. The only part I'm taking issue with is the idea that I was a bad parent for 5 years. That's just not the reality. Could I have been better? Without a doubt. However, should we say Dig was a bad father because of his job? He was gone more than he was ever home. I mean, how many put their careers in a high priority position and still make time for their children? Do we call them bad parents because they have a career and on occasion use family time to do work?

The bad and horrible outcome of an affair is indisputable. Plain and true. I'm simply saying it's not always pure black and white and more often than not, the dynamics are unique.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Does smoking cause cancer....yes
Does smoking ALWAYS cause cancer...no
Does anything else cause cancer....yes
Does cheating cause bad parenting...yes
Does cheating ALWAYS cause bad parenting...no
Does anything else cause bad parenting....yes.


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## Rookie4

Squeakr said:


> You have done the same. When challenged on your proof for your generalized statements, you just blow it off and shift the focus away stating that they are your opinions. They are stated as absolutes and never as your opinion, so provide your facts and proof against it. Even sounds scientific claims have a negative use case to prove the positives.


Look Squeak, I ADMIT they are only my opinions, OK? And have already said it numerous times.I will admit it every single time anybody want me to. The difference is that Bfree and others WON'T admit it. I'm perfectly OK with that.


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## soccermom2three

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



convert said:


> good point, my wife never could compartmentalize that is why/how i could catch her in her affairs. I new something was wrong by the way she was acting.
> 
> If she could compartmentalize she could of went on a lot longer without me catching her, but then i don't know what would be worse a long term affair or multiple short term affair/ONS?


This was how my SIL is/was(?) Not only did her parenting and home life suffer, she stopped having sex with my bil. The one time they tried she started sobbing. Looking back my BIL figured out that she didn't want to cheat on the OM. Sickening, huh?


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## Regret214

Squeakr said:


> Not trying to sound accusatory here, but you were in your basement screwing the OM with your kids upstairs and feel that is the behavior a good parent does??? (By your calculations that means that this happened approximately 30 times over the five year period, and how many times did you steal moments from the kids during that 5 years to chat/text/email/whatever with the OM when you should have been focused on your kids? Wow that is almost as many times as I got sex from my wife during the same time period. I was a schmuck obviously.)
> 
> By your logic could one not assume that they weren't a bad parent and shouldn't be considered a child abuser as they only hit their child a few times during the 18-21 years they were being raised in their house or not neglectful as they only left their child unsupervised a handful of times ands therefor were no bad parents as well??
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong somewhere here, as I am trying to understand this.


You'd probably do well to read my back story to help understand.

The xOM came to our house during the first year and a half of the affair. After that it was always at his home and four times in a hotel. The only time I would text would be from work and it was logistical and never sexual texts. We never emailed. 

My parenting skills had nothing to do with my affair and my affair had nothing to do with my parenting skills. It's just that simple. I'm sorry if you or anyone else is skeptical. I don't begrudge you that. However, when I can sit here with Dig and look at our children and see and know how happy and loved they are, well it's kind of tough to have someone say I was a bad parent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr

Regret214 said:


> However, should we say Dig was a bad father because of his job? He was gone more than he was ever home. I mean, how many put their careers in a high priority position and still make time for their children? Do we call them bad parents because they have a career and on occasion use family time to do work?


If his reason for being away from home was purely the intent to provide the best for his family and this was the ends to his means, then no because it was thinking about and providing for his kids. However, if he was putting the job before his family for purely his personal reasons (such as to promote his reputation at work, gain an unnecessary promotion, impress co-workers, etc) and it wash;t something required for him to solely remain employed, then yes he was being selfish and a bad parent at the time. My STBX was doing the family by spending all of her free time planning for, searching about, and looking for teaching ideas and hints when it was always above the required for her position so she was also a bad parent due to her choosing her career over the needs, desires, and wants of the children.


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## Rookie4

I a cheater is, by definition, ALWAYS a bad parent, then the opposite is true as well. Non cheaters are ALWAYS good parents. How many people believe this is true?


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## Rookie4

soccermom2three said:


> This was how my SIL is/was(?) Not only did her parenting and home life suffer, she stopped having sex with my bil. The one time they tried she started sobbing. Looking back my BIL figured out that she didn't want to cheat on the OM. Sickening, huh?


Yes, indeed.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Regret214 said:


> Yes, I fully understand that I risked losing everything with my decisions. The only part I'm taking issue with is the idea that I was a bad parent for 5 years. That's just not the reality. Could I have been better? Without a doubt. However, should we say Dig was a bad father because of his job? He was gone more than he was ever home. I mean, how many put their careers in a high priority position and still make time for their children? Do we call them bad parents because they have a career and on occasion use family time to do work?
> 
> The bad and horrible outcome of an affair is indisputable. Plain and true. I'm simply saying it's not always pure black and white and more often than not, the dynamics are unique.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A mother loves and nurtures her child. She cleans, cooks, interacts, spends time. She goes to to PTA. She is there for every sporting event. She comforts him when he's hurt. She praises him when he does something good. She is by all accounts a wonderful parent.

This same mother unnecessarily knowingly feeds her child bad food potentially making them sick one day a month. She risks not only their immediate health but also their future because of salmonella, E Coli, etc. She has no mental illness. It's just something she does. When asked she says she was tired and just didn't feel like going to the store to get proper food those days. She does this for five years. Is she still a good parent?


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## convert

convert said:


> good point, my wife never could compartmentalize that is why/how i could catch her in her affairs. I new something was wrong by the way she was acting.
> 
> If she could compartmentalize she could of went on a lot longer without me catching her, but then i don't know what would be worse a long term affair or multiple short term affair/ONS?
> 
> Missthelovin's wife could compartmentalize very well.
> Regret214 please forgive me and correct me if I am wrong but I think you compartmentalize also very well


So, i guess, I prefer, or I am glad my wife can't compartmentalize, if that makes sense

 well I would preferred she would not of cheated but that ship has sunk


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## Rookie4

I think a lot of the confusion is the difference between being a bad spouse and being a bad parent. Now, if somebody says that cheating Is, by definition, being a bad spouse. That can easily be proven by factual evidence and law.


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## convert

Rookie4 said:


> I a cheater is, by definition, ALWAYS a bad parent, then the opposite is true as well. Non cheaters are ALWAYS good parents. How many people believe this is true?


No not always


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## Regret214

Ok. Forget it. I'm so sick of this stupid f'ng argument.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

convert said:


> No not always


Exactly my point.


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## convert

Rookie4 said:


> I think a lot of the confusion is the difference between being a bad spouse and being a bad parent. Now, if somebody says that cheating Is, by definition, being a bad spouse. That can easily be proven by factual evidence and law.


:iagree:

but you can also be a bad spouse without cheating, I know i could have been better
not that it would make a difference with her cheating maybe
I am not taking the blame there


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## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> I a cheater is, by definition, ALWAYS a bad parent, then the opposite is true as well. Non cheaters are ALWAYS good parents. How many people believe this is true?


Not a valid assumption under Euclidean logic


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## Rookie4

Regret214 said:


> Ok. Forget it. I'm so sick of this stupid f'ng argument.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calm down, Regret. Just let it go. You don't have to answer anything that is offensive. Besides, I think you are one of my favorite FWS's.:smthumbup:


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## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> Not a valid assumption under Euclidean logic


Possibly not, but it is as valid as the opposite.


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## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> Look Squeak, I ADMIT they are only my opinions, OK? And have already said it numerous times.I will admit it every single time anybody want me to. The difference is that Bfree and others WON'T admit it. I'm perfectly OK with that.


You have not asked them if it is their opinion EVER, you have only challenged them to provide proof for their statements and then thrown in your broad sweeping generalizations of your own. When the same happens to you, you just write it off as your opinion and that is how you stated it.

Your last comments:

"Does smoking cause cancer....yes
Does smoking ALWAYS cause cancer...no
Does anything else cause cancer....yes
Does cheating cause bad parenting...yes
Does cheating ALWAYS cause bad parenting...no
Does anything else cause bad parenting....yes."

In no way are they stated as opinion, nor have you stated they were opinion when you made them or in anyway insinuated they were.

How can you differentiate these two statements:

Does cheating cause bad parenting...yes
Does cheating ALWAYS cause bad parenting...no

If the first is true (a yes answer was provided by you) then the second has to be true as well. It is basic logic. For these to be correct the first would have to be answered maybe, can, or not always, it can't be yes or no. It is illogical to state it otherwise as YES or NO are absolutes to which their are only two possibilities and no variance and thus the second is always and absolute as well, there is no possible way to vary it from the original.

This is not two different facts like:
All beagles are dogs...yes
All dogs are beagles..no

but yours are more like:
All dogs offspring are puppies...yes
All dogs offsprings are ALWAYS puppies..no

The second can't be anything but yes as the first is an absolute.


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## Rookie4

convert said:


> :iagree:
> 
> but you can also be a bad spouse without cheating, I know i could have been better
> not that it would make a difference with her cheating maybe
> I am not taking the blame there


We ALL could have been better. Both as parents AND spouses. There were times when I was both.


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## Regret214

Rookie4 said:


> Calm down, Regret. Just let it go. You don't have to answer anything that is offensive. Besides, I think you are one of my favorite FWS's.:smthumbup:


Yeah, it's just kind of hard to let it go when my life and my parenting are compared to a woman feeding her kids f'ng poison which could kill them. I'm so sick of this. This thread was supposed to be a thread where wayward spouses could post regarding their situation without fear of being merely persecuted. It was supposed to be somewhere to get support in feelings of confusion and all else that goes with the territory of infidelity.

Instead, it's a bunch of bickering and back and forth on idiocy.

I'm sorry for taking it personal. It's kind of hard not to when compared to a mother feeding her children poison.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Squeakr said:


> You have not asked them if it is their opinion EVER, you have only challenged them to provide proof for their statements and then thrown in your broad sweeping generalizations of your own. When the same happens to you, you just write it off as your opinion and that is how you stated it.
> 
> Your last comments:
> 
> "Does smoking cause cancer....yes
> Does smoking ALWAYS cause cancer...no
> Does anything else cause cancer....yes
> Does cheating cause bad parenting...yes
> Does cheating ALWAYS cause bad parenting...no
> Does anything else cause bad parenting....yes."
> 
> In no way are they stated as opinion, nor have you stated they were opinion when you made them or in anyway insinuated they were.
> 
> How can you differentiate these two statements:
> 
> Does cheating cause bad parenting...yes
> Does cheating ALWAYS cause bad parenting...no
> 
> If the first is true (a yes answer was provided by you) then the second has to be true as well. It is basic logic. For these to be correct the first would have to be answered maybe, can, or not always, it can't be yes or no. It is illogical to state it otherwise as YES or NO are absolutes to which their are only two possibilities and no variance and thus the second is always and absolute as well, there is no possible way to vary it from the original.
> 
> This is not two different facts like:
> All beagles are dogs...yes
> All dogs are beagles..no
> 
> but yours are more like:
> All dogs offspring are puppies...yes
> All dogs offsprings are ALWAYS puppies..no
> 
> The second can't be anything but yes as the first is an absolute.


Ok, you disagree with me. I'm fine with that.


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## Thundarr

Regret214 said:


> I'm sorry bfree, but I was not a bad parent for 5 years, so I'll refuse to bear the brunt of that idea. You talk about substance abuse and are attempting to equate that to an affair. The difference that I see is that I saw the xOM once every two months hardly what an alcoholic or drug addict lives daily. I think that is where things differ.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think the point you're making Regret, is that you didn't neglected your kids and the point bf is making is that you put them at risk. Well good/bad is subjective. I think if your kids don't feel like they were dumped and you don't feel like you neglected them then you did good by them. That's not to say that you didn't put them as risk because I think you'd agree that you did. So every story needs a hero and in this case, after the devastation, you and Digg stepped up. He was willing to reconcile and you were as well. It's not an easy path IMO.


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## Rookie4

Regret214 said:


> Yeah, it's just kind of hard to let it go when my life and my parenting are compared to a woman feeding her kids f'ng poison which could kill them. I'm so sick of this. This thread was supposed to be a thread where wayward spouses could post regarding their situation without fear of being merely persecuted. It was supposed to be somewhere to get support in feelings of confusion and all else that goes with the territory of infidelity.
> 
> Instead, it's a bunch of bickering and back and forth on idiocy.
> 
> I'm sorry for taking it personal. It's kind of hard not to when compared to a mother feeding her children poison.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am sorry. I do try to keep it on track, but You know I am a very argumentative person. It is a failing of mine. I admit it. When attacked,I always fight back. I would appreciate it if , when this happens, a gentle reminder that I am doing it again.


----------



## Regret214

Thundarr said:


> I think the point you're making Regret, is that you didn't neglected your kids and the point bf is making is that you put them at risk. Well good/bad is subjective. I think if your kids don't feel like they were dumped and you don't feel like you neglected them then you did good by them. That's not to say that you didn't put them as risk because I think you'd agree that you did. So every story needs a hero and in this case, after the devastation, you and Digg stepped up. He was willing to reconcile and you were as well. It's not an easy path IMO.


Thank you, Thundarr. You totally get it. You just made my day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeakr

Regret214 said:


> You'd probably do well to read my back story to help understand.
> 
> The xOM came to our house during the first year and a half of the affair. After that it was always at his home and four times in a hotel. The only time I would text would be from work and it was logistical and never sexual texts. We never emailed.
> 
> My parenting skills had nothing to do with my affair and my affair had nothing to do with my parenting skills. It's just that simple. I'm sorry if you or anyone else is skeptical. I don't begrudge you that. However, when I can sit here with Dig and look at our children and see and know how happy and loved they are, well it's kind of tough to have someone say I was a bad parent.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't know your full back story just the little I have sen posted and the reference to the basement boundary.

I understand about skills, but your parenting skills aren't the issue being called into play here. Even the people with the best skills can be the worst people at the same time. Yes those with bad skills will always be a bad parent as they don't have the capability to parent otherwise even though they are giving it their 150% effort, they just don't have the abilities. That is different than someone whom has the skills and just chooses not to use them as they should. Both are bad parents but one is so by choice.


Say there are two bad employees recently hired, #1 is bad because he has never been trained to do the job he was hired for but is super reliable (always on time and super motivated just not adept at the job due to lack of training), #2 is bad because he just never gets to work on time or doesn't come to work at all (but he is a leading authority in his field).

They are are both bad employees and you would not want either in your company if their wasn't time for proper training as both pose a risk, but the second is bad solely because he chooses to be the bad. I see you like #2, as you know what to do, but you made choices that suit you and not the better good of the family while conducting your A (and I realize that Dig made errant choices as well, no one is better than the other here).

I hope you understand what I am saying here and no disrespect meant regarding your parenting and parenting skills and abilities pre-A and post-A, just during the A you made choices that made you a bad parent. Fortunately for all us parents, kids are resilient and can grow through these times if things change, as kids don't come with manuals or require training to have so we all struggle and are bad at times.


----------



## Rookie4

Squeakr said:


> I didn't know your full back story just the little I have sen posted and the reference to the basement boundary.
> 
> I understand about skills, but your parenting skills aren't the issue being called into play here. Even the people with the best skills can be the worst people at the same time. Yes those with bad skills will always be a bad parent as they don't have the capability to parent otherwise even though they are giving it their 150% effort, they just don't have the abilities. That is different than someone whom has the skills and just chooses not to use them as they should. Both are bad parents but one is so by choice.
> 
> 
> Say there are two bad employees recently hired, #1 is bad because he has never been trained to do the job he was hired for but is super reliable (always on time and super motivated just not adept at the job due to lack of training), #2 is bad because he just never gets to work on time or doesn't come to work at all (but he is a leading authority in his field).
> 
> They are are both bad employees and you would not want either in your company if their wasn't time for proper training as both pose a risk, but the second is bad solely because he chooses to be the bad. I see you like #2, as you know what to do, but you made choices that suit you and not the better good of the family.
> 
> I hope you understand what I am saying here and no disrespect meant regarding your parenting and parenting skills and abilities pre-A and post-A, just during the A.


 Regret has to defend herself to nobody. Please leave it alone.


----------



## Rookie4

Regret214 said:


> Thank you, Thundarr. You totally get it. You just made my day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is why Dig isn't here , anymore. I wish he were. But he would probably just get banned again. I just had the hammer dropped on me a week ago, so I'm trying to mind my manners.


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## DaisyNewYork

Don't think y'all can taint everyone with the same brush. Some ws and cheaters gonna be bad parent and some not, same as with luvin couples they ain't all gonna be patents the year


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## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> Regret has to defend herself to nobody. Please leave it alone.


Didn't ask for her to defend herself, nor did I attack her that requires a defense. I am stating my opinion and how I arrived at it and that is all. I, like most parents, have realized and admitted I am not a perfect parent and have been a bad parent at times, and am trying to not disillusion myself or others that I am parent of the year. If I did something that upset her I apologize, as I did not intend to attack or put her on the defensive, but was just illustrating my opinion and how I came to it, as she posed the question (sorry but if one doesn't want an answer then don't ask the question, as some answers are not going to be desired responses).

You disagree with me and I get it, so be it.


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## Rookie4

Regret has taken much more than her share of abuse and harassment from hate filled posters. Her husband was banned for defending her, on several occasions. She has stated that she was a good parent, and I, for one, believe her.


----------



## lenzi

Squeakr said:


> How can you differentiate these two statements:
> 
> Does cheating cause bad parenting...yes
> Does cheating ALWAYS cause bad parenting...no
> 
> If the first is true (a yes answer was provided by you) then the second has to be true as well. It is basic logic. For these to be correct the first would have to be answered maybe


No, your logic is faulty. Let me try to explain.

The first one, "does cheating cause bad parenting...yes" is not stated as an absolute, just a simple cause and effect.

The second statement, which includes an "Always" is clearly an absolute.

That's the difference between the two statements you quoted above.

It's like saying "do people who drive get in car accidents...yes".

It doesn't mean ALL people get in car accidents, it means "maybe" they get in accidents or "some people" get in accidents.



Squeakr said:


> but yours are more like:
> All dogs offspring are puppies...yes
> All dogs offsprings are ALWAYS puppies..no
> 
> The second can't be anything but yes as the first is an absolute.


Your two examples above both contain the word "All".

Surely you can see your faulty logic there?


You're welcome


----------



## lenzi

duplicate


----------



## Squeakr

Rookie4 said:


> Regret has taken much more than her share of abuse and harassment from hate filled posters. Her husband was banned for defending her, on several occasions. She has stated that she was a good parent, and I, for one, believe her.


I understand, but she is no different than any other poster here in that respect. Many a BS and WS have been equally abused and harassed, the difference is that if the poster is a BS they justify it by call it "waking them up" and "breaking out the 2x4's", with WS they call it "abuse" and "harassment" and "giving them what they deserve", each is equally denigrated by others and many a BS and WS have left here or been banned because they supposedly "didn't have a thick skin" (at least that is what the belittlers claim when they leave or are banned).

I like Regret and in was no way trying to demean or attack. In fact I have had to edit several of my responses in several threads to try to make them as less evasive as possible to others.


----------



## Wolf1974

Guess it's a matter of perspective. When married and with kids I look at the family as a unit. When one person in that unit makes selfish decision it jeopardizes everyone. Just no way around that and can't see how anyone could see that different. And that's not just affairs but being an alcoholic, drug addict, sex addict, gambling addict, unable to keep a job and so forth and so on. If one person is a cancer to the family it can and likely will affect the rest in one way or another.


----------



## lenzi

Regret214 said:


> My parenting skills had nothing to do with my affair and my affair had nothing to do with my parenting skills. It's just that simple.


It's obvious from the responses on this thread that you will never, ever convince these damaged betrayed spouses that a cheater can be a good parent even though their beliefs are completely without merit. 

I wouldn't waste your time trying to convince them otherwise.


----------



## Squeakr

lenzi said:


> No, your logic is faulty. Let me try to explain.
> 
> The first one, "does cheating cause bad parenting...yes" is not stated as an absolute, just a simple cause and effect.
> 
> The second statement, which includes an "Always" is clearly an absolute.
> 
> That's the difference between the first one and the second statements you quoted above.
> 
> It's like saying "do people who drive get in car accidents...yes".
> 
> It doesn't mean ALL people get in car accidents, it means "maybe" they get in accidents or "some people" get in accidents.
> 
> You're welcome


You're not welcome. Your logic is faulty because you are not focusing on the Does that starts it. 

It was not phrased as a question of the outcome of possibility such as by using the word CAN, which would adds a variable possibility to the outcome, but instead uses the word Does, which is the action of doing or an action creative a definitive outcome. 

So what is being said is this: 
DOING A yields B...yes
Therefor based upon the yes answer it is an absolute and DOING A would ALWAYS yield B and no other outcome is possible.

It does not hold that B is always solely the result of A, as DOING C could also yield B, which is what the ideal of the word CAN would add to the mix as it creates a variable.

If you want to make it logically correct one needs to make statement/condition not an absolute through different wording or through making the end result not an absolute, like I said before instead of answering yes, it needs to be answered maybe, sometimes, etc.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Regret214 said:


> Yeah, it's just kind of hard to let it go when my life and my parenting are compared to a woman feeding her kids f'ng poison which could kill them. I'm so sick of this. This thread was supposed to be a thread where wayward spouses could post regarding their situation without fear of being merely persecuted. It was supposed to be somewhere to get support in feelings of confusion and all else that goes with the territory of infidelity.
> 
> Instead, it's a bunch of bickering and back and forth on idiocy.
> 
> I'm sorry for taking it personal. It's kind of hard not to when compared to a mother feeding her children poison.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry if my analogy wasn't tactful enough but when it comes to children I am very blunt. We all know that life is full of grey and context is important in most situations. I don't see grey when it comes to parenting. I see black and white only. If you make a choice that knowingly and intentionally harms children I don't see that as good parenting. Period, end of story. Infidelity is a choice. Thank God I did not have children when I was abusing drugs and alcohol because that also would have been a destructive choice that harms children and I would expect to have been held accountable. I certainly do not consider myself a good person during that period abd I would not have considered myself a good parent. I'm sorry if that's a painful thing for me to say but that's how I feel.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Guess it's a matter of perspective. When married and with kids I look at the family as a unit. When one person in that unit makes selfish decision it jeopardizes everyone. Just no way around that and can't see how anyone could see that different. And that's not just affairs but being an alcoholic, drug addict, sex addict, gambling addict, unable to keep a job and so forth and so on. If one person is a cancer to the family it can and likely will affect the rest in one way or another.


I don't fully agree, but I can easily understand this perspective. As a matter of fact, at the time of my divorce, I probably felt the same way.


----------



## Squeakr

lenzi said:


> It's obvious from the responses on this thread that you will never, ever convince these damaged betrayed spouses that a cheater can be a good parent even though their beliefs are completely without merit.
> 
> I wouldn't waste your time trying to convince them otherwise.


It is nice of you to speak for all BS and be the judge of what is merited and not. I have children that are directly affected by the actions of a WS (or more should I say lack of actions) conducted while in the throws of Affairs. Are you telling me that my concerns and viewpoints are without merit. Parenting skills and parenting actions are two different things. One can have the greatest skills in the world, but if they choose to act on their own selfish thoughts and not utilize their skills during such time that they are still a good parent based solely upon they fact that they have the skills?

I would also say that when a BS is withdrawn from the family after discovery that they too are being a bad parent at the time due to their withdrawal from the family and its needs as they are tending solely to themselves. 

Bad parenting can be the result of situational issues.


----------



## Thundarr

Wolf1974 said:


> Guess it's a matter of perspective. When married and with kids I look at the family as a unit. When one person in that unit makes selfish decision it jeopardizes everyone. Just no way around that and can't see how anyone could see that different. And that's not just affairs but being an alcoholic, drug addict, sex addict, gambling addict, unable to keep a job and so forth and so on. If one person is a cancer to the family it can and likely will affect the rest in one way or another.


matter of interpretation is more accurate IMO. My interpretation is that even the best parents are good in spite of their shortcomings. In other words we have the positives and subtract the negatives and that's where we are. To me it's clear that infidelity is a big negative because at the least, it puts the family security at risk. But it's only part of the equation. It doesn't automatically take away all of the good.


----------



## lenzi

Squeakr said:


> Are you telling me that my concerns and viewpoints are without merit.


Not at all. It's entirely possible, even likely that your WS is a bad parent as a result of being a cheater, or she's a bad parent and a cheater because she's a bad person or whatever. 

That does not mean that all cheaters are bad parents. You're projecting your own situation to others. And that's just..well.. wrong.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



lenzi said:


> It's obvious from the responses on this thread that you will never, ever convince these damaged betrayed spouses that a cheater can be a good parent even though their beliefs are completely without merit.
> 
> I wouldn't waste your time trying to convince them otherwise.


I am a BS but I don't believe I am damaged...at least not anymore. I just have definite feelings and opinions when it comes to the welfare of children.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



bfree said:


> I am a BS but I don't believe I am damaged...at least not anymore. I just have definite feelings and opinions when it comes to the welfare of children.


ETA

I respect Regret a great deal and have defended her on numerous occasions. On this point we disagree. C'est la vie.


----------



## convert

We got to have the wayward spouses here on Tam especially the ones going through R. Their input can be of value to other waywards and betrayed spouse.
sure some things they type might rub some the wrong way but it helps us see how things might work with our own spouses.

I miss ms. adams she was one of the good ones, as is regret, they are making it work in their own situations


----------



## Served Cold

Kids are smarter than adults give them credit for. Being a kid they lack the coping skills to understand or deal with adult situations. Dysfunctional parents delude themselves when they preach "do as I say and not as I do". 

It's easy for cheaters to think they are not being a bad parent. Their chidren are not privy to what their mom or dad are doing. It's really a fake standard to apply when not only is the betrayed spouse on the dark so are the children. 

Cheating mom or dad can take their child to their sport activities, make dinner, celebrate thanksgiving, decorate the tree. But what little Jane or Bobby Jr. don't know is that this illusion will evaporate on d -day. 

It's an illusion, " the happy family",and kids are the number 1 causality when the **** hits the fan.


----------



## Squeakr

lenzi said:


> Not at all. It's entirely possible, even likely that your WS is a bad parent as a result of being a cheater, or she's a bad parent and a cheater because she's a bad person or whatever.
> 
> That does not mean that all cheaters are bad parents. You're projecting your own situation to others. And that's just..well.. wrong.


I was not projecting anything on anyone. Those were your words that BS statements and claims were without merit. Thanks again for characterizing me and others in such a negative light as that is ...well....right??


----------



## honcho

Regret214 said:


> Yeah, it's just kind of hard to let it go when my life and my parenting are compared to a woman feeding her kids f'ng poison which could kill them. I'm so sick of this. This thread was supposed to be a thread where wayward spouses could post regarding their situation without fear of being merely persecuted. It was supposed to be somewhere to get support in feelings of confusion and all else that goes with the territory of infidelity.
> 
> Instead, it's a bunch of bickering and back and forth on idiocy.
> 
> I'm sorry for taking it personal. It's kind of hard not to when compared to a mother feeding her children poison.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Isnt this exactly why way back in the beginning of this thread everyone tried to keep the parenting/kids scenarios out of this because it can be debated forever and micromananged that every parent is good or bad.


----------



## lenzi

Squeakr said:


> You're not welcome. Your logic is faulty because you are not focusing on the Does that starts it.


The "does" is not the whole story here. The word "does" is not existing in a vacuum. Does cheating cause bad parents? Yes. _But not every single time._



Squeakr said:


> It was not phrased as a question of the outcome of possibility such as by using the word CAN, which would adds a variable possibility to the outcome, but instead uses the word Does, which is the action of doing or an action creative a definitive outcome.


The "can" does not have to be stated, it's inferred.

Here's an example:

Question: Does a bullet fired from a gun cause death? 

Answer: Yes.

There's no "can" in there but it's obvious that not everyone hit by a bullet dies.



Squeakr said:


> So what is being said is this:
> DOING A yields B...yes
> Therefor based upon the yes answer it is an absolute and DOING A would ALWAYS yield B and no other outcome is possible.


No, what's being stated is Doing A sometimes yields B, which allows for other outcomes being possible. 



Squeakr said:


> It does not hold that B is always solely the result of A, as DOING C could also yield B, which is what the ideal of the word CAN would add to the mix as it creates a variable.


Right. A causes B, and sometimes C causes B. 

There are lots of causes for bad parenting, not just cheating, and that is not disputed by the logic presented above by either side of this debate. 



Squeakr said:


> If you want to make it logically correct one needs to make statement/condition not an absolute through different wording or through making the end result not an absolute, like I said before instead of answering yes, it needs to be answered maybe, sometimes, etc.


The statement "cheating causes bad parenting" is not an absolute.



Squeakr said:


> I was not projecting anything on anyone. Those were your words that BS statements and claims were without merit. Thanks again for characterizing me and others in such a negative light as that is ...well....right??


When you say that all cheaters are bad parents, you're taking your own situation with your cheater ex-spouse and generalizing it to all cheaters.


----------



## Squeakr

lenzi said:


> When you say that all cheaters are bad parents, you're taking your own situation with your cheater ex-spouse and generalizing it to all cheaters.


Nope this is not true. I am taking my, my kids, and others experiences (friends in real life and those on the nets) and the way others have determined the way that WS have acted during their As towards the family and kids and come to the logical conclusion that bad parenting occurred and did so because of the infidelities. 

Nice that my statements are negated by your absolutes (you are giving me know considerations it is just I am upset and hurt base upon meritless reasons), yet you turn around and make the same determinations, and feel that they are true, fair , and logical. 

You have numerous times stated I and others are projecting and generalizing based upon meritless ideals. You have no proof of that other than your opinions and assumptions. You don't know me or the others to have merited basis to make these calls. I had never stated what I was, but you painted me as a BS, I could have been a WS, or been just someone that was the product of a broken marriage and infidelity and you don't know for sure.


----------



## Squeakr

lenzi said:


> The "does" is not the whole story here. The word "does" is not existing in a vacuum. Does cheating cause bad parents? Yes. _But not every single time._
> 
> 
> 
> The "can" does not have to be stated, it's inferred.
> 
> Here's an example:
> 
> Question: Does a bullet fired from a gun cause death?
> 
> Answer: Yes.
> 
> There's no "can" in there but it's obvious that not everyone hit by a bullet dies.
> 
> 
> 
> No, what's being stated is Doing A sometimes yields B, which allows for other outcomes being possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Right. A causes B, and sometimes C causes B.
> 
> There are lots of causes for bad parenting, not just cheating, and that is not disputed by the logic presented above by either side of this debate.
> 
> 
> 
> The statement "cheating causes bad parenting" is not an absolute.


Can just doesn't poly when you see it fit, just like your vacuum statement. Sorry but if you meant can, inferred or not, then your answer would be sometimes or maybe, and not yes. If you meant can then you would have used it in place of does. You answered the question absolutely and didn't qualify it so therefor it was presented as an absolute.

You can argue all angles you want, but if you meant it as a variable possibility then it would have been answered or presented as one.


----------



## lenzi

Squeakr said:


> Can just doesn't poly when you see it fit, just like your vacuum statement. Sorry but if you meant can, inferred or not, then your answer would be sometimes or maybe, and not yes. If you meant can then you would have used it in place of does.


Actually I wasn't the first one who coined that particular phrase on this thread, I think it was Rookie?

However

If I was going to say the same thing, would I say

_cheating causes bad parenting_

or would I say:

_does cheating cause bad parenting, and answer with a yes,_

or would I say

_cheating can cause bad parenting.._

hmm let me think.

I can't decide. They're all saying the same thing. I guess it would depend on my mood at the time of the posting.

I just thought of another example.

"flooding causes damage to homes".

That's a fair statement, isn't it?

That doesn't mean that when there's a flood, every home is damaged. Some are set higher than others, some are waterproofed better than others.

So should I change it to:

"flooding can cause damage to homes"

Is that more accurate? Maybe, but not really seeing it.

"Does flooding cause damage to homes?" "Yes".

Is that better or worse? Not seeing a difference, sorry.


----------



## Served Cold

Rookie4 said:


> Face it. No BS wants to admit that they might have contributed to the WS's, pre-affair, state of mind. It's easier to play the blame game, instead of a little positive introspection. Blame all of it on the WS or the Devil or chance or anything else, but NEVER admit that you as the BS might have a few flaws , yourself. The decision to cheat was the WS's , but in many cases, the accessory before the fact, is the BS.


Hey Rookie 

Here are your own words.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Squeakr said:


> Nice that my statements are negated by your absolutes (you are giving me know considerations it is just I am upset and hurt base upon meritless reasons), yet you turn around and make the same determinations, and feel that they are true, fair , and logical.


Isn't this what's being directed at the WSs who were actually very involved in their kids' lives, even during the affair? Those of us who have stated as such have been told that, essentially, we are wrong about what happened in our families, as well as the families we know.


----------



## Wolf1974

Thundarr said:


> matter of interpretation is more accurate IMO. My interpretation is that even the best parents are good in spite of their shortcomings. In other words we have the positives and subtract the negatives and that's where we are. To me it's clear that infidelity is a big negative because at the least, it puts the family security at risk. But it's only part of the equation. It doesn't automatically take away all of the good.


I guess that depends. Even an alcoholic can subjectively be a good parent. When sober and lucid could possibly even be a wonderful parent. But are they really a good parent or are they a bad parent with moments of unselfish acts. I honestly don't know the answer. It's alittle too philosophical for this old country boy. But am comfortable where I stand as a parent and what I woud describe good and bad parenting from my perspective. And when you put your wants above the kids needs that's just not going to be a good parent in my book. That's how I felt about my x's cheating and still feel the same today.

Now ultimately is she a good parent? That question only my kids can answer one day. They will have full knowledge of what she did , once I tell them, and then they will come to their own conclusions and perspective on it. And I will support it no matter if I personally agree with it or not. I guess my only hope is that they, the sisters, are on the same page about it no matter what. I would hate if one disowned thier mom and the other forgave cause that may drive a wedge between them and that I don't want.


----------



## Squeakr

Maricha75 said:


> Isn't this what's being directed at the WSs who were actually very involved in their kids' lives, even during the affair? Those of us who have stated as such have been told that, essentially, we are wrong about what happened in our families, as well as the families we know.


The difference is that no matter how much you were involved with your kids, you were selecting selfish acts and self gratification over your children at some point during your A and therefor sacrificing time meant for the family and kids, no matter how small and insignificant it may seem, it happened. It is impossible to not have and been so involved in an A and not have had it happen. So bad parenting happened because of the cheating. 

The same could be said for people that become selfish and focus their time on work, drugs, alcohol, or whatever for their selfish reasons (and not saying the few times that extra is required to keep their job, but when it becomes routine and a choice they make, then they too are choosing their job over their kids and committing the injustice). They were being bad parents too. We all have been at some time in our lives, the thing is that most WS will not admit that it happened and vehemently deny that they ever chose their AP over the kids and were not bad parents just because they were cheating and spout all sorts of actions as proof to back their statements. They just can't see the connection.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Squeakr said:


> The difference is that no matter how much you were involved with your kids, you were selecting selfish acts and self gratification over your children at some point during your A and therefor sacrificing time meant for the family and kids, no matter how small and insignificant it may seem, it happened. It is impossible to not have and been so involved in an A and not have had it happen. So bad parenting happened because of the cheating.
> 
> The same could be said for people that become selfish and focus their time on work, drugs, alcohol, or whatever for their selfish reasons (and not saying the few times that extra is required to keep their job, but when it becomes routine and a choice they make, then they too are choosing their job over their kids and committing the injustice). They were being bad parents too. We all have been at some time in our lives, the thing is that most WS will not admit that it happened and vehemently deny that they ever chose their AP over the kids and were not bad parents just because they were cheating and spout all sorts of actions as proof to back their statements. They just can't see the connection.


Justification, Squeakr. Nothing more. It's that same argument... "I'm right. Why? Because you cheated. No more needs to be said." Really, that's what this whole thing boils down to... cheater is bad, in every way. For no reason other than the fact that they cheated. I'm telling you, no. My time was taken from my husband, while gaming with him. My time, my focus in the kids, was NOT altered in any way. No matter how much anyone else tries to dissect the situation and my actions. We were both home all day, everyday. The only time I went anywhere was shopping with my parents and/or my sister, going over to my parents' house and/or my sister's house, or to something relating to the kids/school. While at those functions, my attention was on them, and what was going on. Did I ever email/text OM? Yes. During the day, while the kids were at school, and while gaming. You can pick it all apart all you like. But you are wrong about my EA taking from the kids, and wrong that it caused me to be a bad parent. I was a bad WIFE!


----------



## Squeakr

I could say the same to you, justification. If you think that being a bad wife and hurting your h didn't hurt and take away from your children as well then so be it. I am not trying to down you and am not going to go that route. You can continue to think what you want but it is like I tell my STBX that you were the one that caused the pain and therefore don't get to tell me how I was hurt and how bad I was hurt, that is for the hurt individual to decide. 
Fortunately for us as parents our kids are hardy and only know what they experience and see and they generally judge us as good parents no matter what (until completely removed from the situation).


----------



## lenzi

Squeakr said:


> The difference is that no matter how much you were involved with your kids, you were selecting selfish acts and self gratification over your children at some point during your A and therefor sacrificing time meant for the family and kids


Who says the time she was involved with so called selfish acts was time that was "meant for family and kids".

Who's to say how much of her time is to be spent on family and kids and not on herself and her own needs? If she spends time crocheting rather than sucking an OM's d!ck, is that sacrificing time meant for the kids as well? 



Squeakr said:


> The same could be said for people that become selfish and focus their time on work, drugs, alcohol, or whatever for their selfish reasons (and not saying the few times that extra is required to keep their job, but when it becomes routine and a choice they make, then they too are choosing their job over their kids and committing the injustice).


You just gotta hate those hard working parents who make a choice to work extra hours that really aren't necessary to keep their job. 

I guess in Squeakr's world parents should spend all their free time with their children, and work only the bare minimum needed to pay their bills. 

Many would counter that providing only for the children's basic needs when it's possible for them to enjoy a higher standard of living would be considered bad parenting.

You just can't win.

Let's phrase the quote from Squeakr's post in the form of a question.

"Is the parent who works more than the bare minimum routine amount of hours necessary to keep a job a bad parent?"

Squeakr's answer is "yes".

Maybe we should do a poll.


----------



## Squeakr

Thanks, mom. Don't know why you are stalking and trying to persecute me but have at it and enjoy yourself if it makes you feel better than others. 

We could phrase everything in your term then. is pretentious and misguided solely because they are a BS and everything they say is based solely upon projection and the hurt their WS put on them and has no merit in the real world. 

Pretty much sums it up, right?


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Re: To lurking Waywards*



Squeakr said:


> I could say the same to you, justification. If you think that being a bad wife and hurting your h didn't hurt and take away from your children as well then so be it. I am not trying to down you and am not going to go that route. You can continue to think what you want but it is like I tell my STBX that you were the one that caused the pain and therefore don't get to tell me how I was hurt and how bad I was hurt, that is for the hurt individual to decide.
> Fortunately for us as parents our kids are hardy and only know what they experience and see and they generally judge us as good parents no matter what (until completely removed from the situation).


And I wouldn't begin to tell you how hurt YOU are/were. And I don't tell my husband how hurt he should be/should have been. Nor does he tell me how I should feel about his own beginning EA. The ONLY thing I have stated, repeatedly, is that MY kids saw no difference in me. What they did notice was dad spiraling down BEFORE I even started talking to anyone. They saw me holding things together. They didn't see me talking to OM. They saw nothing change with me. They saw the strain between us, which began well before my EA.


----------



## lenzi

Squeakr said:


> Thanks, mom. Don't know why you are stalking and trying to persecute me


I'm just some dude disagreeing with you on an anonymous internet discussion forum. Nothing more. 

But I'm curious.. Do you often have these feelings of persecution and belief that you're being stalked?



Squeakr said:


> We could phrase everything in your term then. is pretentious and misguided solely because they are a BS and everything they say is based solely upon projection and the hurt their WS put on them and has no merit in the real world.


You're projecting your situation on all cheaters. Your argument that all cheaters are bad parents is without merit. 



Squeakr said:


> Pretty much sums it up, right?


Not at all.


----------



## Squeakr

Think what you want. There is a difference between making a logical and well thought out argument and just taking pot shots at someone. 

Was it really necessary to make those incorrect statements and degrading remarks? If you feel they were merited then you are the one with the problem. 

Since you are only picking out my posts, then yes you are stalking and persecuting. You know nothing about me yet you have characterized me and made statements about my thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. At least I own the and stay true to them. 

If you are so knowledgeable of everything and me in gemeral, how is it that all of your assessments of me and my character are wrong? Funny that according to you if a WS makes a statement they're being truthful and open yet a BS states something and they are only projecting their pain and hurt on undeserving others.


----------



## Regret214

Squeakr said:


> Since you are only picking out my posts, then yes you are stalking and persecuting. You know nothing about me yet you have characterized me and made statements about my thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. At least I own the and stay true to them.


It's not a nice feeling, is it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeakr

Regret214 said:


> Squeakr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since you are only picking out my posts, then yes you are stalking and persecuting. You know nothing about me yet you have characterized me and made statements about my thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. At least I own the and stay true to them.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a nice feeling, is it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

Doesn't really bother me as it is nobody to me and just someone on the Internet. All I ask is the person be truthful and own up to their actions and statements. If that is their Belief than so be it, just own it instead of beat around the bush and deny what they know they are doing. I state my points and try back them with logical thoughts and not result to name calling and belittling. 

If the truth hurts so be it as long as it is the truth and not some fabricated falsehood. I can speak for myself and don't need someone putting words into my mouth and characterizing me in a bad light. I can do that to myself without anyone's help needed. I own my mistakes.


----------



## larry.gray

lenzi said:


> Who says the time she was involved with so called selfish acts was time that was "meant for family and kids".
> 
> .....
> 
> You just gotta hate those hard working parents who make a choice to work extra hours that really aren't necessary to keep their job.


I reject that example completely. Often it's very hard to quantify "extra hours that aren't necessary." Those that do work those hours are the ones that don't get laid off when things are slow. Working those extra hours often are done out of the concern supporting a family. 

I think many women don't understand and certainly don't empathize the tightrope men walk about work. There is the competing demand of wanting to be with their family and feeling the need to provide for the family. My wife and I are parents that spend a LOT on our children. They are not spoiled brats, but they are give lots of opportunity. I don't work hard for me - both the work pursuit nor to give ME the financial rewards. Sans kids, I'd be retired around now.

To categorize working too hard in the same camp as going out and diddling another woman is daft.


----------



## Rookie4

Served Cold said:


> Hey Rookie
> 
> Here are your own words.


Yep, those are my words, all right. So where do I say that the Affair is the BS's fault? Show me where? I clearly saaid PRE-AFFAIR aand I CLEARLY state that the decision to cheat is the WS's. So you are completely and totally wrong .


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## Mr Blunt

Any parent that willfully and knowingly takes an action to please themselves AND IT HARMS A CHILD IS A BAD PARENT AT THAT TIME. 
IME=In my experiences

I am sure that someone can come up with a situation where betrayal did not harm the child. So I am pretty sure that no one is going to change someone else’s mind! Sometimes it is interesting to debate certain issues but most are probably not going to change their view one bit


*I would like to say that a WS can take the right actions after betrayal and make their life and many others a LOT BETTER!!*


If I got this thread right it was started to attract lurking waywards for the purpose of helping them get better. So far very few waywards have come to this thread and posted. Lately we have Regret and Maricha and they are very brave to post here. *How about we talk about AFTER betrayal?* Maybe Regret and Maricha and others can tell us how they have taken actions to prove that they are good parents. If they do I hope that we can put our 2x4s in the barn for now. They might have some good information that will attract a lurking wayward.


I know that if my suggestion is followed that this thread will not get nearly the posts that it has been getting with the debates, but it just maybe more helpful to others.


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