# Can a 22-year bumpy relationship be saved? Should it?



## ForlornHubby (Aug 15, 2011)

Hi everyone,

My marriage is quickly breaking down and I'm going out of my mind with the coldness my wife is showing throughout the whole process, so I just needed to vent and maybe collect some thoughts from other people that may have gone through the same.

*Some background* (I'll try to make this short, but still include as much info as possible):

I started dating my wife 22 years ago (we were 16 and 15 at the time). I was her 1st boyfriend as she was quite introvert and she was maybe my 3rd. We dated for 7 years and, even then, it was quite a challenging/bumpy relationship. I was a devout christian and got into a lot of trouble when it became known in the church we had had sex. I endured being kicked out of church because I felt we were meant to be. Having said that, I have always been far from perfect and, back then, in the interest of (innocent) honesty I was candid to her about some physical features I found interesting on other girls. She was VERY jealous and possessive at the time and, to this day, she still blames those comments as having a deep negative impact on our relationship and our intimacy...

Anyway, I finished my degree and got a job abroad. Since she was going to drop out of her (admittedly high profile) degree anyway, I proposed, we got married (15 years ago) and she went with me. While abroad she took a different BA (which was clearly a 2nd choice for her) while I worked on my dream job (no long hours, though). Still we are both stay-at-home people so we stuck together w/o many hiccups. It was clear however that being abroad had been MY plan (not hers) and since she really wanted to have kids (I didn't care much for the matter) after 7 years I compromised and we moved back to our home country. This was 11 years ago.

Since coming back I've been working on an ok job but not in the industry I am talented/gifted in. She's on her second job (she had a 2 year unemployment/maternity spell between them) she doesn't care much for, but pays the bills. There's open resentment on both sides that each other choices to move countries have blown the other's career prospects.

In the meantime we had one daughter 9 years ago which really rocked our already thorny relationship. After that I was quite pragmatic and said that we should stick to 1 kid because our frayed relationship needed spare time to survive and, obviously, the economics would be easier. She felt that it was bad for a kid to be alone in the world and that brotherhood is an important part so I was kinda "coerced" into having another girl 3 years go. Now, we love them to bits but they have really driven a stake through the marriage (esp. the second one, which is a handful).

So for the last years our already difficult relationship turned into a storm where she's constantly mad at me, I'm constantly mad at the kids (she frequently is too), there's a lot of recrimination and no one's having fun. And if intimacy had always been infrequent for my liking, it's come to the point that it's like once every 2 or so months and I know she does it just to keep me happy.

Then for the last few months, she stopped being mad. I could sense she distancing away and after finding out she had begun having internet male friends (one of them she admitted to having met already 2 or 3 times for coffee), I confronted her and she told me she doesn't love me anymore, she can't picture herself getting old with me and wants to still try and find love elsewhere (we're 38 and 39 now). Still, she wanted to stay together for the kids and suggested we try an open relationship which, if you ever knew her, is TOTALLY surreal. I have obviously declined the proposal.

The problem is that I still love her and, besides, the logistics of divorce are scary. After we agreed we'd make an effort - I have, for the last 3 weeks, been trying to make an effort to be more romantic, send her flowers (on my birthday, while I was working abroad), compliment her looks (the latter something I have ALWAYS done) and spend more time with the kids. But it has clearly been a one-way effort as she hasn't moved one iota herself. Furthermore, she doesn't appear to have any remorse on the matter (she says its because she's on anti-depressives).

Don't get me wrong: my wife has tons of qualities: she's attractive, dresses impeccably, is a loving mum, is capable of the most thoughtful things and keeps the family logistics in check. But I like to think I'm not a slouch either: I'm ok looking, I do the dishes, take out the garbage, do the beds, fix everything around the house and take the kids to school. But we can both be very self-centered and in these last months she's got it down to an art. 


So, in a sense, my obvious questions are:

1) Is my best course to continue making the single-handed effort (so, if it breaks down at least I know _I_ made an effort) or go for the 180 approach (in the same house?) I just read about?

2) Is it even POSSIBLE to turn around this state of things? And I mean to it being ACTUALLY BETTER than it ever was (not limited, but including sex)? Or should we just cut our losses and go separate ways? (I refuse to stay together in a loveless marriage just for the kids)


Many, MANY thanks for any words or feedback on the matter. Let me know if you need more info (there's always tons of detail): I'll try to be as honest as possible.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Seems like there are a couple things going on here... some of your choices early in the relationship sound a little dubious, such as making comments about the other gals and not getting an enthusiastic agreement about moving abroad. These kinds of decisions stick with people. Think of it this way - you feel "coerced" by having another child... think of how she must feel about giving up her career, her dreams and her degree for you. You are both carrying around a ton of resentment and it shows in your post.

Now, she feels like life is passing her by and she meets someone on-line. Then another. Her affair(s) have entered the picture and in her weak state she is comparing all the positives of the other guy(s) vs. the negatives of you. You aren't going to win that fight. Problem is, she is now irrational and cake-eating... you are taking care of the house, the kids, etc. and she's off doing all the fun things in her head with her internet friends. She's got it all now, why would she change?

If it were me, I'd give her one chance to end the affair(s) and see the error in her ways, and then it'd be the full 180 and asking her to leave. Stop with the flowers and stuff. If she could get herself in gear (and part of that would be being very specific on what you could do better to fulfill whatever needs she's getting from the other guy(s)), maybe you could get past it.

A little dose of understanding that she could be out on her own in an apartment somewhere, only being able to see the kids 50% of the time, and fully reliant on her job that she doesn't care for might help. If you want her back at all.

But while you are debating all that, work on the self-centered thing. You were NOT coerced into having a second kid. You do NOT look attractive if you are doing chores while yelling at children. Etc. If I were her, I could really see myself at a point where I could admit that the internet friends were wrong, but I couldn't go back to the self-centered nature of your relationship. Think about that... There are a lot of ways to work on you - otherwise, even if you leave, you might find yourself right back at this point in your next relationship.


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## ForlornHubby (Aug 15, 2011)

Acorn said:


> Seems like there are a couple things going on here... some of your choices early in the relationship sound a little dubious, such as making comments about the other gals and not getting an enthusiastic agreement about moving abroad.


You are completely right, of course. Those comments were stupid and admittedly insulting, and I can only justify them as a mix of youthful thoughtlessness and an conviction that honesty is always a good thing. Having said that, I do feel she's blown them completely out of proportion due to the fact that she was (is?) an insecure person. I certainly have refrained from any such idiotic considerations in the last 20 years and have stayed with her (and enjoyed all her physical aspects) throughout... 



Acorn said:


> She's got it all now, why would she change?
> If it were me, I'd give her one chance to end the affair(s) and see the error in her ways, and then it'd be the full 180 and asking her to leave. Stop with the flowers and stuff. If she could get herself in gear (and part of that would be being very specific on what you could do better to fulfill whatever needs she's getting from the other guy(s)), maybe you could get past it.


I have asked her to stop it, esp. with the guy she has met in real life, and she said she would stop it. I do have some evidence that she may have indeed kept her word (or at least refrained heavily from being @ her computer hours on end) but I obviously don't follow her around or have access to her email accounts so I can't be certain.



Acorn said:


> A little dose of understanding that she could be out on her own in an apartment somewhere, only being able to see the kids 50% of the time, and fully reliant on her job that she doesn't care for might help. If you want her back at all.


I believe that may be the deciding factor: she values her creature comforts, so she may settle down if she really feels she'll have to make due with less money. The thing is I feel that's the wrong way to go about it. I really want her for us to be whole again, not force her into hiding more resentment because of money issues.  Don't you agree?



Acorn said:


> But while you are debating all that, work on the self-centered thing. You were NOT coerced into having a second kid. You do NOT look attractive if you are doing chores while yelling at children. Etc. If I were her, I could really see myself at a point where I could admit that the internet friends were wrong, but I couldn't go back to the self-centered nature of your relationship.


Cohersion was probably too strong a word, but I did agree to have a second child against my better judgement, because she strongly wanted it and even said "I want two kids: if not with you, with someone else then". So I kinda did it "for her", with all the negativity that entails.

Again, you're completely right about the self-certerness and this is healthy advice. The problem is that, as I said, I feel I'm doing an effort but she's not. I'm "forcing" (i.e. making a conscious decision) myself to be less me-centric for the greater good but she alternates between going through the motions and, occasionally, murmuring "it's not worth it". 

So, where do I go from here? Is it a lost cause?


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

candlemelter said:


> Having said that, I do feel she's blown them completely out of proportion due to the fact that she was (is?) an insecure person.


I think it is pretty silly on one hand to not have let comments made 20 years ago go, but - and this is a bit but - if you have maintained for 20 years this judgmental stance of her feelings, you aren't really empathizing or helping her get over them. 

I mean, turn this around and realize for years she may be feeling that you belittle and minimize her feelings when she allows herself to be vulnerable and express them. My reaction to her feelings would be disappointment in myself for hurting her - I don't know why you "judge" her feelings and determine them an overreaction?

And if you judge her feelings, how can she ever make progress in the marriage? She can spend hours introspecting and trying to find the way back to a happy marriage, and then she'll remember you are just going to toss her thoughts aside anyway - she may feel pretty hopeless toward your prospects in marriage because of this.



candlemelter said:


> I have asked her to stop it, esp. with the guy she has met in real life, and she said she would stop it. I do have some evidence that she may have indeed kept her word (or at least refrained heavily from being @ her computer hours on end) but I obviously don't follow her around or have access to her email accounts so I can't be certain.


Typically the advice would be for you to demand - not ask, but demand - for total transparency, which would include access to her email accounts. You won't be able to fix things if she's still communicating with these guys - she must realize that and agree to transparency going forward.




candlemelter said:


> Cohersion was probably too strong a word, but I did agree to have a second child against my better judgement, because she strongly wanted it and even said "I want two kids: if not with you, with someone else then". So I kinda did it "for her", with all the negativity that entails.


No, actually she communicated her proposed boundary to you (in a not so nice way) saying that she intends to have two children in her life, and if you want to continue to be in her life, you must agree to have two children.

You willingly and enthusiastically chose to stay with her on her terms, and volunteered to be the father.

Now, she is communicating her new proposed set of boundaries to you (in a not so nice way) saying that she intends to seek male companionship outside the marriage, but she would be willing to stay at home with you until the kids are older under those terms assuming you continue to provide all the domestic duties and affection she requires.

Your move.


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## ForlornHubby (Aug 15, 2011)

Acorn said:


> I think it is pretty silly on one hand to not have let comments made 20 years ago go, but - and this is a bit but - if you have maintained for 20 years this judgmental stance of her feelings, you aren't really empathizing or helping her get over them.


I don't want to split hairs with you but I wanted to clarify this: I certainly did not belittle her feelings or eschew the responsibility for my stupid comments. I do believe they have definitely influenced her negatively. What I am saying is that I find it disheartening that she clings to comments made by a spotty 16 year-old rather than of 20 years of life together where I always made her feel completely wanted.




Acorn said:


> Now, she is communicating her new proposed set of boundaries to you (in a not so nice way) saying that she intends to seek male companionship outside the marriage, but she would be willing to stay at home with you until the kids are older under those terms assuming you continue to provide all the domestic duties and affection she requires.
> 
> Your move.


Yes, I know.  Unfortunately, while I compromised on the family planning, I'm not open to compromise on this one. Hence my original question: is there evidence that someone that puts such a raw deal on the table (her) can ever be made to have 2nd thoughts and make an effort to "save" the marriage in a conventional way of staying together for the "right" reasons... ?


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Well, personally, I think it can be done but it'll take work from both of you to do it.

I won't bore you with my story, but based on my experience and what a lot of wiser posters here will tell you, you have to be willing to let go completely in order to have a shot at getting her back.

In other words, take charge of the relationship. Tell her the direction your life is going is to focus on the two of you, eliminate all distractions (like the other men), and what basic needs you have that are deal-breakers in the relationship. If she can't meet them, you are willing to leave. While you are doing this, you are doing whatever you can to improve yourself and make yourself a more attractive option - i.e. do not buy her flowers, but instead work on whatever issues such as self-centeredness that you believe needs improvement within you. You are doing this work to be a better person - NOT to keep her in the relationship.

Right now, she is in full cake-eating mode, and has everything she wants. She takes what she wants from you, and she takes what she wants from her internet friend(s). She is in a fog and is not rational right now, so this solution works for her. You are trying to re-introduce the idea that this is an either/or. And you are compounding that with your best efforts to be a more attractive person.

From there, she'll make her choice. You can't control that, but either way, you will be a better person and you will have a much better idea where you stand with your wife as well.

Also, consider posting in the Coping w/Infidelity because if she is openly meeting with these guys and/or asking for an open marriage, she has crossed a line and those with experience might be able to provide additional advice. 

Good luck.

And PS - I may have been to blunt about the comments 20 years ago, I guess I misunderstood. A lot of walk away wives/husbands will rewrite history to reflect the worst points and she may be doing that as part of what she's going through now.


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## ForlornHubby (Aug 15, 2011)

*NOTE: *This is more of a followup to my other thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/31019-open-question-how-does-love-feel-after-20-years-together.html than to the immediate posts above. But it's all the same subject...



Amplexor said:


> Without action the relationship will erode into resentment and a complete disconnect.


The thing is I always put her distancing down to "now she's pregnant", "now she's got maternity blues", "now the money is short", "now her dad passed away", "now she's unemployed" etc. And I always hoped and prayed that we'd get over our differences eventually. I thought she did too but now I feel/know that she herself has thrown the towel quite a while ago.  When I ask her "lets make an effort" she tells me "we should've done that 10 years ago" and she insists "people don't change so the efforts will never amount to anything".

So, much more than fighting any feelings she may have for her "pen-pals", I need to fight her disbelief that it's worth, or indeed, even possible to salvage this marriage.

We've just come back from a driving-around-the-country week holiday (with the kids) where, every other day, when something didn't go to plan and there was a bit more tension (and what road trip holidays with kids don't have those!) she would utter things like "it's not worth it" and "this is not what I want for my life" (even when the cause for frustration was actually the girls, not me). Very disheartening.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

candlemelter said:


> So, much more than fighting any feelings she may have for her "pen-pals", I need to fight her disbelief that it's worth, or indeed, even possible to salvage this marriage.
> (


I think you may be wrong on that. As long as she's engaged in an EA (let's call it what it is) she will believe that her affair is the perfect relationship she can't have because she's stuck in this less than perfect marriage with you. Just because she believes it doesn't make it true though. Go to the infidelity section and read about "the fog" that cheaters get caught in. I can tell you personally that it is very real and can make you believe some silly things. Things that you know aren't true at the time but you believe them anyway because to do otherwise would bring your affair crashing down around you. It is very powerful, very confusing and very hard to get out of. 

You have almost no chance of getting her to rationally evaluate if she wants to save your marriage or not while she's in her EA. As long as she's in it she's comparing her fantasy relationship to her less than perfect marriage - the marriage will lose that comparison every time - it doesn't matter that her fantasy is based totally on B.S. and is a complete pipe dream. 

The two of you clearly have some marital issues to address but you can't begin to do that until you bust your wife's EA(s). The good news is that if you can get her out of it and the two of you still want to recommit to the marriage and reconcile you might find that in working through her EA the two of you will reconnect and end up with a better marriage than you have had in years. My wife and I really focused on using the wake up call of my EA to address the issues in our marriage and improve them. Today we are better than we have ever been.

Priority number one has got to be to end her EA.


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## ForlornHubby (Aug 15, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> The two of you clearly have some marital issues to address but you can't begin to do that until you bust your wife's EA(s). The good news is that if you can get her out of it and the two of you still want to recommit to the marriage and reconcile you might find that in working through her EA the two of you will reconnect and end up with a better marriage than you have had in years. My wife and I really focused on using the wake up call of my EA to address the issues in our marriage and improve them. Today we are better than we have ever been.
> 
> Priority number one has got to be to end her EA.


I understand what you are saying, but how did your wife make you snap out of it even momentarily to even give recovery a chance??

I have confronted my wife and she says with the straightest face possible "this guy is also married, he is just a friend, that due to his job (he's allegedly a cop) can't exteriorise to those around him his sensibility so he feels he can only vent out with me. It's not because of him that our marriage is in shambles".

Now, to be honest she's right about the last thing - we have issues that we needed to address urgently regardless. And I believe that W half-believes the first part too. Heck, were it not for the inordinate amount of emailing and mobile texting between them even I would be ready to believe it!

But the immediate problem is I don't know how I can get her to own up to the fact that TOM is filling the void in her we both should be striving to fill between ourselves other than doing something radical like walking out. I certainly don't think I can reason it out of her - I've tried.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

candlemelter said:


> But the immediate problem is I don't know how I can get her to own up to the fact that TOM is filling the void in her we both should be striving to fill between ourselves other than doing something radical like walking out and putting some financial strain on her (and our daughters). I certainly don't think I can reason it out of her - I've tried.


You are not going to be able to reason with her so stop trying. It will just serve to make you look weak.

"W, there is not room in this marriage for three people. Your relationship with OM has gone beyond the boundary of what I think is acceptable in a marriage. You need to end all contact with OM or I will need to re-evaluate this marriage."

In order to do this, you MUST be ready to walk away if she chooses the OM over you, and you MUST be ready to play ball if she chooses you. Just remember that she took the "radical" step first, not you.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Fortunately my wife didn't have to snap me out of it, I wanted out of my affair I just couldn't figure out how to do it. So when it all blew up I knew I wanted out of the A and to reconcile with my wife. Having said that I can tell you that even though I wanted out, actually getting out and working my way out of the fog all the while dealing with my wife and marriage was the hardest thing I've ever done - by a long shot. You just can't understand how addictive these things can be, it is a brain chemical addiction and it's just as hard to break as any other addiction. She will blame shift, gas light, rewrite your marital history and cake eat as long as she can. She will do whatever it takes to keep that addiction alive until she's faced with a situation where she HAS to pick. Getting her to see and understand that she is faced with that situation is the hard part, largely because she will work so darn hard at keeping you from putting her in it. Acorn is right - you can't reason with her so stop trying. She's not the rational person you know right now. In reality she needs your help to return to the marriage. She needs you to hit (figuratively of course) her hard enough to snap her out of it. How hard you have to hit her depends on just how far up her [email protected]@ she has her head. 

You can't move forward with your marriage while there are more than two people in it.


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## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

candlemelter said:


> *NOTE: *This is more of a followup to my other thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/31019-open-question-how-does-love-feel-after-20-years-together.html than to the immediate posts above. But it's all the same subject...


Ok good, because I wanted to answer the original question, but not in that other thread. After 21 years of marriage, I can tell you that love feels wonderful and exciting, just like two schoolkids together. Of course, I divorced the cheating cow that I was married to for 21 years, and have found a new love, so you do have to take it with a grain of salt  .


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## Tommo (Oct 1, 2011)

A "marriage made in heaven" doesn't last too long in hell!

Get out...


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## emmahudson88 (Oct 7, 2011)

Acorn said:


> Seems like there are a couple things going on here... some of your choices early in the relationship sound a little dubious, such as making comments about the other gals and not getting an enthusiastic agreement about moving abroad. These kinds of decisions stick with people. Think of it this way - you feel "coerced" by having another child... think of how she must feel about giving up her career, her dreams and her degree for you. You are both carrying around a ton of resentment and it shows in your post.
> 
> Now, she feels like life is passing her by and she meets someone on-line. Then another. Her affair(s) have entered the picture and in her weak state she is comparing all the positives of the other guy(s) vs. the negatives of you. You aren't going to win that fight. Problem is, she is now irrational and cake-eating... you are taking care of the house, the kids, etc. and she's off doing all the fun things in her head with her internet friends. She's got it all now, why would she change?
> 
> ...



Thanks you for the post.
__________________
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## Tommo (Oct 1, 2011)

Some of these posts highlight that fact that a cheating spouse can end the affair and put things right.

I beg to differ. Cheating will put a distance between you that will never be put right again. In time, you'll find someone that doesn't have this inbuilt contension...you'll like the freshness of character...the marriage will come unglued.

Give it some time...even a decade. This betrayal is permanent, I'm afraid. Say adios to your marriage, matey!


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