# Insulting spouse when stressed



## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

I'm new here, hope to share my full story when I have time. for now just a question:
How do you handle it when your spouse turns general annoyances--like stress from work--into issues about YOU and turns against you? exampke: if he's annoyed that his employees make excuses for not doing what he's trained them to do, then when you do something that reminds him of that, he tells you "you are a person who makes excuses" ?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*A spouse who successfully tries to run a business or is in charge of a number of employees should always try to adopt the businessman's mantra of "never bringing their business problems to their home, nor should they ever bring their family problems to their place of business!"*


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Feel free to inform him that you are an adult. You do not have to make excuses. Because: he is neither your boss nor your daddy.


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## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Reply to him in a quiet voice, not showing emotion and going down to his level. You need to show you are above his rants and rudness. Get the message across that you need to be spoken with respect.

You cannot control your spouse, but you can control your reaction and come across muture and rounded.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

Thank you. Fortunately I did reply calmly. But what's hard is the hurt inside from years of this. I would like to be stronger and less vulnerable to his daggers, so my outside cool isn't in such dissonance with my inside pain. He lacks empathy during conflicts.
I want to stay married and I hope to stay level-headed, mature and strong enough in response to him, that it changes the dynamic. I have done years of therapy. He's done some. We've done counseling together. He won't go back with me.


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## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

choosinglove said:


> Thank you. Fortunately I did reply calmly. But what's hard is the hurt inside from years of this. I would like to be stronger and less vulnerable to his daggers, so my outside cool isn't in such dissonance with my inside pain. He lacks empathy during conflicts.
> I want to stay married and I hope to stay level-headed, mature and strong enough in response to him, that it changes the dynamic. I have done years of therapy. He's done some. We've done counseling together. He won't go back with me.


Ahh.

Do you guys have 1 to 1 times away and have fun etc?
Is he aware of your unhappiness?


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## flyer (Jun 23, 2014)

If he won't go back to therapy with you, to me, that shows he, atleast, has a guilty conscience.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Well not every spouse does this, for starters. My wife does, however. The best thing to do is learn to remain calm. It's not really about you, and while he doesn't have the right to take his stress out on you, it's not really a reflection on anything you're doing wrong. You can say, CALMLY, "I don't like the way you are talking to me right now. I'm not going to respond if you speak to me in that tone" or "If you have a problem with something I did, you can just tell me what it is. I'm not going to listen to your insults."


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Are you confronting him when he feels particularly raw about the problem? Early in our marriage, my wife had the habit of trying to help while the blood was still on my knuckles (metaphorically and sometimes literally). That's a great time to get your head bit off. 

Is he more rational after having a chance to calm down?


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Also, figure out why it scares or rankles you when he does it, and learn to control your fear. Do you think he'll leave you? Are you afraid he's right about you and it makes you a lesser person? Hopefully there's no fear of violence (if there were I would give you different advice). As long as he's not going to hurt you, you can learn to be less afraid of him. I came to see my wife's storms as little tempests in teapots, to be honest, and I think me being calm even helps her calm down.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

Yes, we do have some good times. We spend time together, laugh together, and he does helpful and even thoughtful things often. But our good times are far too often punctuated by damaging conflict. He knows what our issues are and his main frustrations are:
He feels like he can't speak freely snd say whatever comes to mind without me reacting and arguing with him.
He feels like I demand too much and am needy. 
I wish I could write more right now but I have no time at work to do so.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

choosinglove said:


> Thank you. Fortunately I did reply calmly. But what's hard is the hurt inside from years of this. I would like to be stronger and less vulnerable to his daggers, so my outside cool isn't in such dissonance with my inside pain. He lacks empathy during conflicts.
> I want to stay married and I hope to stay level-headed, mature and strong enough in response to him, that it changes the dynamic. I have done years of therapy. He's done some. We've done counseling together. He won't go back with me.


Have you read His Needs Her Needs?


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

choosinglove said:


> Yes, we do have some good times. We spend time together, laugh together, and he does helpful and even thoughtful things often. But our good times are far too often punctuated by damaging conflict. He knows what our issues are and his main frustrations are:
> He feels like he can't speak freely snd say whatever comes to mind without me reacting and arguing with him.
> He feels like I demand too much and am needy.
> I wish I could write more right now but I have no time at work to do so.


So it sounds like you tend to be defensive? That is consistent with his complaint about you making excuses, which you mentioned.

It sounds like you both have aspects of the way you communicate that you need to work on. A spouse He needs to speak to you more respectfully -- he should be able to get a point across to you without hurling insulting words like "needy" or yelling. At the same time, I am guessing, from reading between the lines, that part of the dynamic is also your defensiveness.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Welcome to the club of the angry men spouses. Read "Love busters" - are the first three of the busters about your marriages? 

Nothing damages relationship more than angry, verbally abusive and demeaning spouse. It goes against love, mutual respect, trust. You will start withdrawing slowly to the place where he cannot hurt you anymore. 

Hopefully it is not too late for you to start working on it. Your level of resentment is not that high yet. You have to communicate clearly to him how does this make you feel, and request that he treats you as equal partner, not his subordinate. Hopefully he will get it, and start working on it.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

Yes turnera I have. I've read tons of books. We're currently reading five love languages together but sometimes it seems like it is making our issues worse. Thanks for pointing out that my defensiveness is also at play. It's hard for me because the tone of his attitude toward me has been so critical that my default is to be insecure with how he feels about me. I will try to share more later.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Of course you will be defensive when attacked. that's instinct.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

*"He feels like he can't speak freely snd say whatever comes to mind"*

Newsflash: Neither can anyone else. We all have to measure our words to our loved ones and we all are concerned with getting a reaction that may not have been anticipated.

No one has the right to just blurt out whatever mean, demeaning or hurtful thing pops into their mind and then accuse the recipient of being 'too sensitive' or argumentative. If he wants to pull that stuff, tell him to 'talk to the hand'.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

WandaJ, how helpful do you think love busters could be if I'm the only one who reads it? 
How can I mitigate my defensiveness if I'm burned from so many verbal insults?
How can I not feel so hurt inside while trying to set and enforce boundaries calmly on the outside?
These aren't rhetorical questions, if anyone actually believes there are answers.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> Of course you will be defensive when attacked. that's instinct.


Being defensive does not mean the same thing as defending yourself. It means that when someone raises an issue you with you you try to deflect blame, make excuses, etc.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

choosinglove said:


> WandaJ, how helpful do you think love busters could be if I'm the only one who reads it?
> How can I mitigate my defensiveness if I'm burned from so many verbal insults?
> How can I not feel so hurt inside while trying to set and enforce boundaries calmly on the outside?
> These aren't rhetorical questions, if anyone actually believes there are answers.


I don't know if you can completely avoid being hurt by insults, but you can make it clear you won't tolerate them and that if he has a problem he's going to have to find another way of raising it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

choosinglove said:


> WandaJ, how helpful do you think love busters could be if I'm the only one who reads it?
> How can I mitigate my defensiveness if I'm burned from so many verbal insults?
> How can I not feel so hurt inside while trying to set and enforce boundaries calmly on the outside?
> These aren't rhetorical questions, if anyone actually believes there are answers.


What you're describing is you having poor boundaries and even worse consequences that you enact when those boundaries are crossed. Feeling hurt is not an excuse to lash out, to ridicule, to yell, whatever. 

A boundary is what YOU say YOU won't tolerate. A consequence is what YOU then do to protect yourself. Not something you do to HIM, not something you tell him to do - since you can't control someone else and that's pointless anyway.

You tell him ahead of time, "I don't want to be yelled at. If you raise your voice, I'm going to end the conversation and leave the room." That's your boundary.

So when he yells at you next time, you calmly say "I told you I won't participate in yelling any more. I'm going to go in the other room. If you want to talk to me without yelling, let me know." That's your consequence - what YOU do to protect YOURself from his yelling. He's free to yell all he wants, you can't control him; but he'll be doing it to the walls, because you won't be there to experience it. 

If he calls you and yells, hang up the phone. He'll figure it out. 

Calmly explain to him what you no longer will accept - blame, names, whatever - and what you'll do if he does it again. That takes any blame out of the situation, lets him live UP to your expectations, teaches him he'll have to treat you with respect, and will just generally change things.

And yes, you SHOULD do the Love Busters questionnaire even if he won't participate. Fill his out for him if he won't, though you should just be able to say 'here, fill this out and tell me what it is I do that annoys you' and he should jump at the chance. Once you have his answers, or you answer them FOR him (lord knows he's told you often enough what he thinks you do wrong, right?), it's up to YOU to read it, digest it, ask yourself HONESTLY if you ARE doing these things, and then spend the next few months eliminating those bad habits from your life. 

Even if he doesn't participate, YOU becoming a better person is never a bad thing. And you may be surprised at how much nicer he becomes once you aren't doing the things that annoy him. It happened with mine, and I was convinced he was an abusive jerk. It turns out I was doing a LOT of things that upset him, and didn't even realize it. Once I stopped doing them, he stopped reacting so negatively to me.

btw, everything I wrote is what my therapist of several years taught me. So you're getting the benefit of a professional's opinion, too.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

Thank you turnera. I will get love busters and get on it myself. 
What I need to protect myself from, is the hurtful words. He doesn't assault me ongoing--he "reacts" to me "pushing" him. When he slings a dagger, he WANTS me to back off--because he wants to be free to sling a dagger without consequence. He does not follow me. He wants to end the conversation. But he does not want to be accountable for his words. 
Currently we are in a Cold War. We drive to work together and did so this morning with minimal conversation. I am feeling like a burned, hurt vulnerable little child. I don't enjoy that feeling. Being in his presence right now makes me uncomfortable. 
Perhaps if I get better boundaries, I will be able to remove myself from the situation when it hurts me, and give MYSELF enough time out to care for myself, until I feel comfortable returning to where he is? In other words--not hope or wait for something from him. Because hoping to discuss/clarify/get resolution more calmly on issues, does not work. He doesn't participate in calm productive problem solving conversations. 
Unfortunately this just sounds like rugsweeping.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Not sure I understand, can you explain how a conversation might go? What do you mean by you "pushing" him? Are you saying he's defensive too?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

choosinglove said:


> Perhaps if I get better boundaries, I will be able to remove myself from the situation when it hurts me, and give MYSELF enough time out to care for myself, until I feel comfortable returning to where he is? In other words--not hope or wait for something from him. Because hoping to discuss/clarify/get resolution more calmly on issues, does not work. He doesn't participate in calm productive problem solving conversations.
> Unfortunately this just sounds like rugsweeping.


No, it's training. It might help you to write out what you would LIKE things to go like. Maybe even a sample conversation of how you'd like it to go. Armed with that information, you can say to him, "when you say ABC, I feel XYZ. I want to stop feeling that way, so when you say ABC, I'm going to have to change things. I'm open to suggestions but if you don't have any, I think I'm going to go (travel in separate cars, take a bath, skip the event, call my mom, volunteer...fill in the appropriate response).

Of course, then you have to actually DO the things, no matter how he reacts. 

There's an amazing little book called The Dance Of Anger that many therapists recommend. It teaches women how to say no, how to not accept poor behavior, without angering the other person. You might want to give it a read. Anyway, the author says that when you start making these changes, the other person is going to do what's called "Change Back!" behavior - to try to put you back into your 'role.' That's good, cos it shows you're having an effect on them, and that they're learning to adapt to the new, stronger you.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

I read that one too. Maybe will reread. He's definitely trying to keep us stuck in dysfunctional roles and dance. He has a negative world view, marriage view, and therefore me-view.
John lee, I will later transcribe last night's conversation as I remember it. I appreciate in advance your thoughts.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

choosinglove said:


> WandaJ, how helpful do you think love busters could be if I'm the only one who reads it?
> How can I mitigate my defensiveness if I'm burned from so many verbal insults?
> How can I not feel so hurt inside while trying to set and enforce boundaries calmly on the outside?
> These aren't rhetorical questions, if anyone actually believes there are answers.


"The love busters" are for you to read first. It will give you validation, that what you are feeling is not you being "too sensitive" (oh, I've hear that one before, more than one, for twenty years). I have found myself and my marriage described very precisely in the first three chapters. It gave me strength (plus having great commentators on my own thread about my marriage, who offered great insight and advise) to change how I react to him. Much calmer. But things haven't started changing until I said that I want divorce - I blurted it out while he kept yelling at me. It is rocky, but it is MUCH better now. 

I think you would find my thread helpful to you too. It is in "Considering separation/divorce" section titled "Loss of Affection - is this reversible?" (or something like this, who came up with that line, lol?) I actually will be due for an update in couple of weeks (they told me to wait three months to see if changes really happen)

Here , I've found the link:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/217993-no-affection-left-reversible.html


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

Here's how it went last night. 
Background: I used the term "employees" loosely. They're not his employees. We both work at a school. I'm a teacher, he's the tech admin. People call him constantly to help, teach, train them in their tech needs. He has a short patience level for what he sees as ineptitude and helplessness. 
Me: "today in my classroom I dod x with my kids. They took turns two at a time at the three conputers."
Him: "cool. You could reserve the mobile cart by booking it on the calendar wiz."
Me: "I don't know how to do that. Remember I missed that training that day?" (Because I had been on maternity leave)
Him: "that's just an excuse." 
Me: "what, that I don't know how? i don't see how it's an excuse, because I'm not wanting to remain in ignorance about it, I want to learn it. It's just a statement of fact. I don't know. I would like to know. Can you show me?"
So he got my laptop and showed me. He had an annoyed tone and the topic of what's an "excuse" or not went back and forth between us. 
So then when I thought things were calmer between us, I said:
"How many people at the school bother to use this tool that you made?"
Him: "like nobody."
Me: "okay, so o understand how annoying it is that I didn't know, and it just reminded you of all the other people who don't oeaen or use the systems."
Then he said: "No, that's not it at all. It's you. You are a person who makes excuses."

THAT was the kick in the gut to me. 

Because:
1. It's untrue and unfair. I do so many things that are hard and would be easier left undone and I refuse to make excuses. I work out, eat well, go to church, pump breast milk during my jam packed work day, cook, make homemade baby food, care for our infant, and am responsible at my job. It was just so unfair. Global character assessment that does not match my true character.

I stayed calm in my tone but I did engage. I tried to explain why I felt it was so unfair. I defended myself. I did not yell or curse or cry or whine. I took deep breaths and kept my voice even. But I conversed with him for at least another hour. 

It's as though a switch went/goes off, and at that moment he suddenly sees me as the enemy. At one point he did say "I'm sorry I said it. But there is some truth to it."

He also told me he had said it because he's "sick of having to have these discussions" and "a part of him just wants to lash out."


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

I forgot why else it kicked me in the gut:

2. He made it personal and global. It was as if my disagreeing with him came across as a personal attack against him (I base this on experience with him), and so he "fought back" to attack me back. Verbal warfare. I pissed him off by challenging or disagreeing, so he attacked even harder.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

WandaJ said:


> "The love busters" are for you to read first. It will give you validation, that what you are feeling is not you being "too sensitive" (oh, I've hear that one before, more than one, for twenty years). I have found myself and my marriage described very precisely in the first three chapters. It gave me strength (plus having great commentators on my own thread about my marriage, who offered great insight and advise) to change how I react to him. Much calmer. But things haven't started changing until I said that I want divorce - I blurted it out while he kept yelling at me. It is rocky, but it is MUCH better now.
> 
> I think you would find my thread helpful to you too. It is in "Considering separation/divorce" section titled "Loss of Affection - is this reversible?" (or something like this, who came up with that line, lol?) I actually will be due for an update in couple of weeks (they told me to wait three months to see if changes really happen)
> 
> ...


I apologize, I was thinking of the Love Buster questionnaire, not the book. By all means, read the book! Read all his books!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

IMO, he needs to see your rear end as you walk out the door, to learn a little humility.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

As I ruminate on it in the big picture of our dynamic...

I honestly think "making an excuse" is just his latest term for explaining my own reality or experience of any situation IF he happens to not be in the mood to care about it or make room for it. When he is in that mood, he is right, and anything other than his declared "right" is just an excuse for not agreeing with him or accepting his truth.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

Turnera based on your last comment that he should see me walk out the door, do you retract your other advice?--about seeing my part, setting and enforcing boundaries, etc? 

I also try to model and reinforce the behaviors I would like to see more of--giving kind words, expressing appreciation, etc. obviously om not perfect but that's my objective and hope every day.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The more you talk about him the more I believe he needs a wakeup call and if that wakeup call doesn't work, you need to be ready to move on and find someone who's willing to meet you halfway.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

I'm scared of the loneliness I foresee if I divorce:
If I will be required to live in one state where I have nobody but him because we have a child, while my parents, sisters, and entire family, to whom I'm *extremely* close, all live in another. 
Of course I realize that I need to weigh that possibility against the loneliness of staying with him.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What a horrible reason to stay with a man who puts you down nonstop. You're selling yourself.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

He basically treats you like child that needs to be taught her place, her values. Otherwise she won't know how to behave, what to do, and he is the one who knows best. Where is the respect for you as his partner?

This won't be easy. It may not even be possible, it all depends if he is finally able to see that if he wants to be in relationship, he needs to treat his partner as equal, with love and respect.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

Of course it's not "constant" and obviously there are some good points. People don't stay unless there's something good. 
But yes, in these moments he treats me with disrespect. And no, I don't want that. 
Turnera, is what I'm describing worse than what you dealt with from your husband?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, MUCH worse. Despite my H's insecurity, his negativity, he has never ONCE in 35 years made me think that I wasn't the ONLY thing he wanted out of life (aside from our daughter). He was 'the man' before I dated him. He was gorgeous. He would have women calling where we worked, and they would sit on the phone for HOURS and wait for him to pick up the phone. He was that good. That wanted. But all he wanted was me. He waited for me to give up my abusive fiance and then asked me out. He's never cheated in all the years he's had hundreds of chances (that I know of), and I've always known that I'm all he wanted.

Back when he was being controlling, it was out of fear of losing what he wanted - me. Once I realized I WOULD leave if he didn't change and I made that clear to him, he changed. Immediately.

You don't have that luxury. He's made it clear he treasures himself more than he does you. 

I wouldn't put up with it.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

I get it. Mine is not controlling in that way. But theres no sense or fear that he'd cheat. 
Does he treasure me...does he respect me...does he value me...
These are not questions I should have to ask.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No, you shouldn't.

But this isn't about him.

I spent decades wishing I could find the magic bullet to make mine stop his dysfunctional crap. Several therapists. Even finally got HIM to go, only to find out he wouldn't change - because he didn't want to and because I couldn't change him.

The IC/MC finally told me that it was always about ME, not him. About what I am willing to accept.

Some day you're going to realize that accepting crap is NOT more important than your self worth, your dignity. That you CAN be happy without him and that keeping him is NOT the only sign of a successful life. Once you are able to let go of him, you will be able to negotiate.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

then I need to figure out what "not accepting it" looks like. Short of divorce because I'm not ready for that nor do I want it in the big picture.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

In a way that fits my circumstances, not a different situation of set of issues.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

choosinglove said:


> then I need to figure out what "not accepting it" looks like. Short of divorce because I'm not ready for that nor do I want it in the big picture.


Ok, first, here's what we tell EVERYONE who comes here: If you aren't willing to lose your marriage, you WILL lose your marriage.

You have to be willing to walk away. I hope you can understand this. If all your choices are made because you AREN'T willing to just walk away if you don't get what you deserve, then YOU WILL MAKE MISTAKES. You won't make the right choices. You will choose stability or safe instead of integrity. And you will regret it.

As far as figuring out what not accepting looks like, I always tell people to go back to the year before they met their spouse. Remember who they were at that point. Would THAT person have accepted this kind of treatment? No? Then why accept it now? Make a list of what THAT person would accept.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

choosinglove said:


> Here's how it went last night.
> Background: I used the term "employees" loosely. They're not his employees. We both work at a school. I'm a teacher, he's the tech admin. People call him constantly to help, teach, train them in their tech needs. He has a short patience level for what he sees as ineptitude and helplessness.
> Me: "today in my classroom I dod x with my kids. They took turns two at a time at the three conputers."
> Him: "cool. You could reserve the mobile cart by booking it on the calendar wiz."
> ...


I can tell you he's being a jerk, and he is, and you know that, but that doesn't get you anywhere. 

What I see in your responses is that you seem to feel this really strong urge to try in vain to convince him that he's wrong about what he said about you, almost like you are trying to get an approval from him you know you won't get. I got an image in my head of car wheels spinning in the snow -- maybe it's just the weather we're having. 

Sadly, these kinds of insecure reactions can sometimes just feed a person who is already picking on us. I think it would help you to strengthen your self confidence and security about those things -- instead of trying so hard to argue to him that they are true, believe them more strongly yourself and don't try so hard to prove him wrong with words. He can say that you are a person who makes excuses, but he can't change reality by saying that. "I know that that's not true about me, and I don't appreciate you saying it." If he feels the need to keep laying into you, you firmly and confidently (but not yelling) tell him that you're not interested in continuing to talk to him if he's going to insult you. And the next step is to walk away from him.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

In other words, grow a backbone. Get mad. Get fed up. Men are unreasonably afraid of women's anger. Use that.


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## always_hopefull (Aug 11, 2011)

choosinglove said:


> I'm scared of the loneliness I foresee if I divorce:
> If I will be required to live in one state where I have nobody but him because we have a child, while my parents, sisters, and entire family, to whom I'm *extremely* close, all live in another.
> Of course I realize that I need to weigh that possibility against the loneliness of staying with him.


I would much rather be alone than lonely. At least you have a chance of meeting a decent guy who respects you. Right now he doesn't respect you.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

John lee, that is very accurate. I end up spinning those wheels because I'm searching for proof that he doesn't really mean what he just said. Of course what he said is such a mismatch to the truth--but I can't be at peace with him unless he acknowledges that.
So: if I choose to make a statement like the one you suggested, and then walk away--then what?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Then you don't have to deal with CRAP. Do you have a good mom (some don't)? If so, what would she say if she knew you were being treated this way and were accepting this? Would you have accepted this from him when you were dating? Then why now? 

I'll tell you. Because you prefer a body in bed next to you than sleeping alone. Sadly, that's the #1 reason women accept crap. 

Now, I'm not saying he's an abusive monster. He most likely has molded into this person for a number of reasons, most of all because HE isn't getting his needs met anymore either, because those PEA chemicals that keep people 'in love' the first 2 or 3 years have now left your body, because you've both realized the other person isn't just there to make YOU feel good but rather are expecting you to make THEM feel good too, and because since you've both retreated to your corner, there's no love going on. The more this perpetuates, the stronger your reactions to each other, the more fighting, the more entrenchment.

So a two-pronged approach is necessary. One, follow HNHN and make sure YOU are not contributing to the unhappiness; don't try to make him do it - you can't control anyone. Fix your side of the street.

Two, educate yourself on what you're dealing with. If he really IS controlling or abusive, you need to know that, know the truth, so you can use the correct method for dealing with him. So read the Why Does He Do That? book.

Three, it's up to YOU to stop accepting crap. Use your brain. Find ways to not do it. Start leaving the room. Start ending conversations if he insults you. You wouldn't accept your coworker talking to you that way, would you? So anytime he treats you worse than a coworker, end the instance. Go to another room, go for a walk or a drive, go to a hotel if he won't let up - REMOVE YOURSELF. You don't even have to say anything. He'll figure it out if you say 'don't treat me like that' a couple times before you leave. He'll see that HIS words are pushing you out. And he can then choose to stop or lose you.

This is you enforcing YOUR boundary by enacting YOUR consequence to protect yourself. He's free to not change, but he will find himself with fewer and fewer opportunities to 'not change' around you. 

Think of this like the way SuperNanny teaches parents to make their kids stay in their beds at night instead of getting up. The first time the kid gets up, the parent says 'no, this is your bedtime' and leads the kid back to bed. The next time he gets up, the parent doesn't say anything, but leads him back again. He gets up, gets led back. He gets up, gets led back. On and on and on. It almost always only takes one night for the kid to 'get it.' To become exhausted, give up, and just fall asleep in his own bed. By the next night, he remembers the ugly consequences he had to endure the night before, the bad feeling, and just decides to do the right thing and sleep in his own bed.

This is you training your husband - at first, like that first ugly night for the parents, it's hard work on your half and it could get ugly; but the end result is SO important that it's worth it to 'train' him (or rather to UNtrain him) about what you'll accept.

Once you reach that, THEN you can work on other problems in your marriage. But first you have to get that respect back.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Cletus said:


> Are you confronting him when he feels particularly raw about the problem? Early in our marriage, my wife had the habit of trying to help while the blood was still on my knuckles (metaphorically and sometimes literally). That's a great time to get your head bit off.
> 
> Is he more rational after having a chance to calm down?


:iagree:

You can't change him, but you can recognize when he's like this and avoid interacting with him until he gets himself together. And when he is calmer, suggest that he seek some means of stress relief. 

Lastly, it is worth it to ask yourself if there's any truth in what he's saying. Sure, he says it in a mean and biting way, but it may still be an issue for you. Consider if his message has some merit.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

choosinglove said:


> Of course it's not "constant" and obviously there are some good points. People don't stay unless there's something good.
> But yes, in these moments he treats me with disrespect. And no, I don't want that.
> Turnera, is what I'm describing worse than what you dealt with from your husband?


Oh, I know. When times are good, they are great. Perfect husband, until the next time. very familiar scenario.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

choosinglove said:


> then I need to figure out what "not accepting it" looks like. Short of divorce because I'm not ready for that nor do I want it in the big picture.


Then you have nothing to work with. He has NO REASON to change. Why would he ? He is fine.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

choosinglove said:


> John lee, that is very accurate. I end up spinning those wheels because I'm searching for proof that he doesn't really mean what he just said. Of course what he said is such a mismatch to the truth--but I can't be at peace with him unless he acknowledges that.
> So: if I choose to make a statement like the one you suggested, and then walk away--then what?


Exactly, you are "searching for proof that he doesn't really mean what he just said," because you are giving him the power to define what's true about you, instead of yourself. You are acting as though if you don't convince him otherwise, what he said will be true, like his judgment is the law.

If you build up your confidence in yourself, over time, it will get to the point that if he says something clearly not true about you, you will almost just laugh it off. And he may even speak less insultingly to you if he picks up on that self-respect, but even if he doesn't, it's a win for you because you have the self-respect. 

As far as walking away, you take deep breaths and remain calm and firm. Then the onus is on him to apologize. And you don't apologize to him for refusing to be insulted.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

At the same time, just to be clear, don't use this as a license to ignore any criticism or problem he ever raises, it's just that he has to learn to communicate them to you in a respectful way. And part of teaching him to do that, if it's even possible, will be not feeding the beast, not rewarding the way he talks by acting like you are desperate for his approval.

"You're a person who makes excuses" is not constructive or respectful. "I'm angry that you didn't ____ and then made an excuse about it" would be a little more specific and not personal, which is better, although here it doesn't sound like you made excuses about anything, at least based on your version of it.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

John Lee said:


> At the same time, just to be clear, don't use this as a license to ignore any criticism or problem he ever raises, it's just that he has to learn to communicate them to you in a respectful way. And part of teaching him to do that, if it's even possible, will be not feeding the beast, not rewarding the way he talks by acting like you are desperate for his approval.
> 
> "You're a person who makes excuses" is not constructive or respectful. "I'm angry that you didn't ____ and then made an excuse about it" would be a little more specific and not personal, which is better, although here it doesn't sound like you made excuses about anything, at least based on your version of it.


This was also residual irritation at me over the fact that a few days ago I knocked over a glass of water, got exasperated that the coffee table wasnt closer so I wouldn't have had to put the glass on the floor, and he replied "or you could just be more careful"--and that time, I had fought back. He fed my beast and I fed his. That day he accused me of "making excuses" and not being "humble" instead of just saying oops, silly me. 

i had said yes you make a good point. I'm just tired and overwhelmed trying to do it all here. His response--"more excuses."


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

John Lee said:


> choosinglove said:
> 
> 
> > John lee, that is very accurate. I end up spinning those wheels because I'm searching for proof that he doesn't really mean what he just said. Of course what he said is such a mismatch to the truth--but I can't be at peace with him unless he acknowledges that.
> ...


Actually, it's not so much that I want him to define me but my desire that he see me as I truly am and accept me. Not perfect but decent and human. 

However, I do see what you mean about being able to just laugh if something he says so clearly untrue.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Cletus said:
> 
> 
> > Are you confronting him when he feels particularly raw about the problem? Early in our marriage, my wife had the habit of trying to help while the blood was still on my knuckles (metaphorically and sometimes literally). That's a great time to get your head bit off.
> ...


I can't find this comment post from Cletus. Am I missing something?


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

choosinglove said:


> This was also residual irritation at me over the fact that a few days ago I knocked over a glass of water, got exasperated that the coffee table wasnt closer so I wouldn't have had to put the glass on the floor, and he replied "or you could just be more careful"--and that time, I had fought back. He fed my beast and I fed his. That day he accused me of "making excuses" and not being "humble" instead of just saying oops, silly me.
> 
> i had said yes you make a good point. I'm just tired and overwhelmed trying to do it all here. His response--"more excuses."


Well, honestly, you were making excuses about the water, and it was totally needless. He's right, you could just say "oops" or you could not put glasses of water on the floor. I don't know why he felt a need to harp on it, but I also don't know why you felt a need to come up with an elaborate deflection about a simple accident.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

choosinglove said:


> Actually, it's not so much that I want him to define me but my desire that he see me as I truly am and accept me. Not perfect but decent and human.


Do you think he doesn't see you as decent and human? Accepting you doesn't mean he has to be ok with everything you do, and not being ok with something you do doesn't make you less decent or less human. It really sounds like bolstering your own sense of self-worth would help as much as anything. The stronger you become, the more you will be able to both reject harsh insults AND accept legitimate complaints.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You said what you said because (1) you were embarrassed, (2) HE had put the coffee table too far away and you were complaining about his actions, or (3) you were used to him complaining so you tried to head him off before he could say something negative. Understanding YOUR feelings and reasons will help you make better choices. In each of these cases, you working on your own self esteem would have headed it off. You ARE getting something from him, some sort of 'validation'; until you can do that for yourself, you will be giving him your power. You will be always dependent on HIS good opinion of you. And that sucks.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

And if you genuinely don't like where he put the coffee table, bring it up before you spill the water, not after. "Honey, would you mind if we move the coffee table closer to the couch? It's hard to reach my drinks where it is now." I realize this is a minor incident we're talking about, but I'm guessing it's a small window into a larger dynamic at play.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

choosinglove, while I agree 100% that sometimes one must be willing to loose your marriage to save it, I don't think you're near there yet. I suspect that your husband will turn around with a bit of change on your part. I second (third?) the suggestion to read Love Busters.

One of the BIG love busters is "disrespectful judgments"- which your husband is making when he says things like "It's always an excuse with you". 

On the other hand, it's not exactly respectful to try to make your husband change his mind, either. I suggest that you forget trying to make him see things your way. Simply own your perspective and share it with him. It is helpful if he can see things from your perspective, don't get me wrong. But there is no way to force that and it certainly isn't worth a fight.

Realize that your husband's words and actions belong to him alone. You can certainly influence him, but you can't make him be anything. If he is being a d!ck, it is because he has chosen to be one. He is entitled to his own opinion and he has every right to act as he wants to. 

(You are not beholden to accept or stick around for all of his acts, though.)

Another way of saying this is: realize that his actions/words are not something that you should take personally. Your job as an adult is not to try to change his mind or to read into whatever you think his actions might mean. (No offense, but it is faulty thinking to believe that HIS acts/words determine YOUR worth.) It is your job as an adult to determine what you are and are not OK with- this is how you determine your boundaries.

When my husband and I first got together and he made a *** comment like your husband's, I would say things like "If you need someone to kick around, I suggest you buy a dog. I am NOT your dog. I am heading out until I calm down." This ticked him off. It stopped the fight but it didn't help make any better feelings between us. I wanted him to stop being disrespectful and fought back by being disrespectful. No one really won with that strategy.

It is now five or six years later, and it is rare for either one of us to make a *** comment to each other. I read Love Busters and now just simply say, " You know, I think that is a very disrespectful thing to say"' or if he says something hurtful: "Wow. Ouch. " It's not a fight. I don't tell him what I think of him personally, I just tell him how I feel about it. Now, usually what happens is he will say "I am not trying to be disrespectful/did not mean to hurt you. I just feel/think/want..." and things tend to go much better.

There is a lot of space between leaving the room because you don't like how he is treating you and leaving your marriage. There is:


"I don't like how you treat me when I ask for help. I feel disrespected and belittled. I am not going to ask you for help anymore and will find others to help me instead." (Ask appropriate people only! But call a help desk, google, youtube, etc. but don't go back to him for help if he is going to be a d!ck about it.)

There's going out with your girl friends to movies on Friday instead of subject yourself to his misery. 

There's taking your child and going to dinner on your own, if you have the funds. Or a picnic. Or a carnival. etc.
It basically doing things that you enjoy to the extent possible and not letting his disrespect ruin things for you. Believe it: it is possible to enjoy yourself, even if his mopey face is at home. 

The thing is- right now he probably has no idea what he sounds like to you. He doesn't feel what you feel and almost certainly doesn't realize how harmful it is. It sounds like you two are locked in a battle of Who Is Right. He'll fight to force you to acknowledge that he is Right, just like you are fighting to force him to acknowledge that you are OK. 

Trust that you are OK and step away from that battle. He won't see what he is doing until the swords are down and you are off doing something else. Once he no longer has to prove that he is Right he will likely see what he was doing, if you keep your boundaries. That is, removing him from your space when he is being a jerk. Letting him back in when he is being a kind, caring husband. 

It might sound crazy, but in successful marriages, the spouses are not jerks to each other. Sure, we all have our bad days, but it is not asking "too much" to have your spouse treat you nicely.

The more I practiced boundaries, worked to eliminate my Love Busters, the more I saw my own part. And the better things got for both of us. It works both ways! 

If he is not willing to change, then you will still benefit. You'll either find a way to have happiness despite him, or you'll gain the self-confidence to leave. But if you decide to leave it likely years away (unless there is more abuse that you're not posting about?) Either way it 's good.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

RoseAglow said:


> choosinglove, while I agree 100% that sometimes one must be willing to lose your marriage to save it, I don't think you're near there yet.


FTR, when I say that, I'm speaking of MENTALLY being willing to lose your marriage. In other words, when you speak to him, and for instance he triggers your fear that he will leave you or whatever, inside, you have to be able to think and feel 'well, ok, so he does that, so what? I can still be ok by myself and even happy by myself, so I'm not going to just drop everything just to please him and forget about my needs. No, this has to be an equal partnership and if he's not willing to GIVE me an equal partnership, maybe that means we're not compatible.'

It's just a mindset that you won't die if you don't end up with him; that's very freeing, and allows you to approach him as an equal, not out of fear of being dumped.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

choosinglove said:


> I can't find this comment post from Cletus. Am I missing something?


Page 1 of the thread.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

This is all very helpful. All I've had time to do is skim and then read. I will reply later. Thank you all in advance. I've been doing some of these things over the past few years--but it seems that in the past few months, maybe since we've had a baby and both been working full-timr, we have regressed and backslid into old patterns from before we did MC.


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm sorry you are here. I just recently asked my live in BF (we werent married and dont have kids together, so its different) to leave for very similar reasons. He didn't show me affection, however, and I only had two years invested. I still love him dearly, but couldn't handle the childish outbursts and deflaming of my character as well. He also said he felt like he settled for me, which showed. I had lived in a loveless and respectless marriage for years before this, and couldn't go through it again.

I hope you can get through to him. Losing a marriage isn't fun.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

John Lee said:


> And if you genuinely don't like where he put the coffee table, bring it up before you spill the water, not after. "Honey, would you mind if we move the coffee table closer to the couch? It's hard to reach my drinks where it is now." I realize this is a minor incident we're talking about, but I'm guessing it's a small window into a larger dynamic at play.


Yeah, the coffee table thing:
A little incident that does represent the larger dynamic. Which is: I feel like there's a double standard. He's said verbatim that he wants to be able to "stress out" and not have me "get on his case" about it or take it personally--even though his stress-outs sound more sniping at me than mine did, which targeted the coffee table. But I have felt numerous times, that I'm not afforded the leeway to have a bad moment or day. I try to stay patient and reasonable, but he's very hard on me if I am not. Even if I'm post partum, or sick, or overwhelmed, or just had a major situation like a surgery or car accident or am 8 months pregnant. I've gotten the message that I'm not allowed to have a bad day if he also happens to be feeling stress.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

meh, if he did that to me, I'd have gotten up and gone to watch tv or done something else in a different room. And again. And again. And again.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

choosinglove said:


> Yeah, the coffee table thing:
> A little incident that does represent the larger dynamic. Which is: I feel like there's a double standard. He's said verbatim that he wants to be able to "stress out" and not have me "get on his case" about it or take it personally--even though his stress-outs sound more sniping at me than mine did, which targeted the coffee table. But I have felt numerous times, that I'm not afforded the leeway to have a bad moment or day. I try to stay patient and reasonable, but he's very hard on me if I am not. Even if I'm post partum, or sick, or overwhelmed, or just had a major situation like a surgery or car accident or am 8 months pregnant. I've gotten the message that I'm not allowed to have a bad day if he also happens to be feeling stress.


I hear you, and you may well be right that he has a double standard about this, dishing it out but not taking it etc. 

The thing about "double standards" is, there's the way you think things should be, and the way they are. And when things are not the way you think they should be, you can wring your hands all you want about how unfair the situation is, and you can vent about it as much as you feel like you need to on TAM or wherever, but none of that changes the dynamic between you and him. 

I hear you saying it's not fair, essentially, that he gets away with behaving a way that you don't get away with. But you're the one letting him get away with it. You're the one who puts up with it, and who even fuels it a little by trying to almost plead for him to change what he said. There are no marriage police or marriage courts you can go to to enforce objective standards of fairness in your marriage -- only you can do things to change the dynamic. I think people in this thread have made a lot of good suggestions of approaches you can try. It doesn't only have to be "this is over, I'm walking away," but you should work on communicating to him directly, firmly, and clearly, speaking from your feelings about how his behavior affects you, focusing on the subject at hand and not about the other day when the water spilled or the time two weeks ago when he got upset at you for being stressed out.

Also, I think what's "fair" is beside the point. Is your goal to have a marriage where you both have equal rights to "stress out" and act like jerks? Or is it to get him to stop doing that to you? I would focus on how what he does makes you feel and why you won't stand for it rather than on not having a "double standard."


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

RoseAglow said:


> choosinglove, while I agree 100% that sometimes one must be willing to loose your marriage to save it, I don't think you're near there yet. I suspect that your husband will turn around with a bit of change on your part. I second (third?) the suggestion to read Love Busters.
> 
> One of the BIG love busters is "disrespectful judgments"- which your husband is making when he says things like "It's always an excuse with you".
> 
> ...


Rose aglow, this is extremely helpful for a big picture change if I work on it, and I'd like your advice (or anyone's) on how I might handle my specific circumstances as they are now:

This happened Tuesday. He's now wanting to sweep it under the rug and act like we are normal and chit chatting about neutral things, being happy and acting like nothing happened. I however am not ready to warm up and behave that way toward him. I'm being neutral, not rude, not sweet and lovey, polite, just cool I guess. Not engaging or responding much. Without either a conversation to clear it up, or an apology from him. I expect neither based on my experience. Upcoming down time over the weekend...if I bring it up for the reconnection I seek, I am likely opening myself up for another verbal blast. So I don't think I should. It pains me because I'd rather kiss and make up for the closeness I know we could have and enjoy our life together--but approaching him to kiss and make up essentially lets him get away with being an a** and is just more of the same. Maybe this is that interim period in what you suggested: that at this point it is painful for me, but is temporary. I think I just need some help knowing how to get through the next few days as I think about and try to put in place healthier boundaries.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

John Lee said:


> choosinglove said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, the coffee table thing:
> ...


Yes. Certainly I shouldn't look for wanting to get away with what he does and making sure it's all fair. 
It's just hard that he can be very hard on me when life is hard enough. My goal is to have a marriage with a basis of acceptance, where each can admit mistakes and give the other one grace to make them and forgiveness if they do. I don't always sense a basis of acceptance from him. I don't sense appreciation for what I go through or do--instead, when I tell him what I'm going through and why/how it causes me stress, he calls them "excuses." To me, it's just stating my reality--not using it to get away with something or not have to do something. I don't sense that he wants to approach the stresses of life WITH me, but instead makes them about me.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

Cletus said:


> Are you confronting him when he feels particularly raw about the problem? Early in our marriage, my wife had the habit of trying to help while the blood was still on my knuckles (metaphorically and sometimes literally). That's a great time to get your head bit off.
> 
> Is he more rational after having a chance to calm down?


He is more rational but usually unwilling to stay rational through a conversation about my feelings.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

We just had an absurd exchange that, to me, indicates that he doesn't see or doesn't want to see how his sweeping insult from the other day has an effect on us:

We just drove to daycare to drop off our 9-month-old. While there I noticed that tge baby's shoes were on the wrong feet. They looked funny and cute. I laughed and said "oh look daddy put your shoes on the wrong feet!" We chuckled with daycare lady. Husband said jokingly "no, mommy gave me the wrong foot!" (as I'd been holding him while husband put the shows on.
In the car, I said "that was funny. But I thought you put his shoes on while he was sitting in the car seat. Was I holding him? I didn't know I gave you the wrong foot."
He said "oh my GOD. Yes, I PURPOSELY put his shoes on wrong!!"
Me: "no...I know it wasn't on purpose. It was funny and cute."
Him: "and it was funny when I said no, mommy gave me the wrong foot! But now you're reacting to that!"
Me: "no, I'm not. I'm saying I'm so tired I barely remember how we put the shoes on" (ok honest yes I was, I admit, but please read on) I then said: "If I had said that, you would've told me I'm making an excuse. But I didn't say that to you."
Then we walked inside the school, he said "have a good day" and made a kissing noise, and I walked by him. 
It's as though he wants the other night to just disappear without acknowledging any of it at all.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

choosinglove said:


> This happened Tuesday. He's now wanting to sweep it under the rug and act like we are normal and chit chatting about neutral things, being happy and acting like nothing happened. I however am not ready to warm up and behave that way toward him. I'm being neutral, not rude, not sweet and lovey, polite, just cool I guess. Not engaging or responding much. Without either a conversation to clear it up, or an apology from him. I expect neither based on my experience. Upcoming down time over the weekend...if I bring it up for the reconnection I seek, I am likely opening myself up for another verbal blast. So I don't think I should.


There's a lot to handle in this one paragraph. First, a man's top two needs is almost always sex and admiration. Nagging, pointing out faults, blaming, expecting more from them, hell even just asking them to fix a home repair, will all raise the man's hackles, make him defensive, make him start blaming YOU to get you to shut the hell up.

It's not pretty, but it's basic psychology. Just asking him to fix a repair translates (in his mind) to he's not doing a good job providing for you, he's a failure, you look down on him, etc. 

In a healthy guy, that would just be ignored. But I'm guessing at least 75-80% of the men out there are NOT healthy, just like the same amount of women. We all have issues, and our wives not admiring us is KEY to most men. 

So what do you do with that? It's a fine line for sure. I believe in the the HNHN process - meet all their needs and make no unfair LBs, meaning don't chew him out for stuff he had no control over. But do discuss with him things that he is doing that hurt you. When you married, he should have wanted to know those things so he could stop them, but along the way, men's egos get so bruised from the not-admiring thing that they retreat to a corner and sulk - and blame - and get angry - and turn off - and try to get YOU to act worse so they can say yeah but what about YOU?

Your job is to find the midway. Meet his needs, make sure he has no complaints about you (legitimate ones), and then calmly, logically state that when he does ABC, you feel XYZ, and to protect yourself hereonout you will do 123 if he continues. Not in a blaming way, in an explaining way. "Hon, I've asked you to stop leaving your dirty Q-tips all over the house for me to pick up (that's my personal issue) because it disgusts me. You know it bothers me but you still do it. So to protect myself in the future, every time I see one, I'm going to pick it up but I'm going to leave it on your dresser. That way I don't have to see it any more and you can then take care of it. I know I can't make you change if you don't want to, and I don't want to start hating you for things like this, so this is my solution to not go down that path." Not a great solution, but an empowering one. That's you informing him on what he does (your boundary), you telling him that you aren't telling him to change, but you ARE telling him to expect different behavior from you (your consequences) if he continues to do it. 

If he's the kind to attack you for speaking up, I would do it with your keys in your hand, on the way to work, and you say it and walk out the door so he has nothing else to do but sit there and think about it instead of his typical kneejerk reaction.

Now, as to your being 'warm' to him, it's ok to retreat when your feelings are hurt, but make sure you aren't doing it to PUNISH him. All that does is reinforce the behavior, tell him he was justified. I would continue to meet his needs, not LB him, yet keep reinforcing your consequences like leaving the room if he snarks at you, etc.



> It pains me because I'd rather kiss and make up for the closeness I know we could have and enjoy our life together--but approaching him to kiss and make up essentially lets him get away with being an a** and is just more of the same. Maybe this is that interim period in what you suggested: that at this point it is painful for me, but is temporary. I think I just need some help knowing how to get through the next few days as I think about and try to put in place healthier boundaries.


It's very common for men to be an ass and the two withdraw and then the woman cries uncle and begs forgiveness; the two sexes handle things completely differently. Women are MUCH more willing to eat crow, forget about THEIR issues, just to have peace in the house. And men know it. And use it (generalization here, guys). Which is why you need to break the dance. Smile, give him a kiss on the cheek, and go out and do something for yourself. "I need a break from this tension, I'm gonna go get a manicure. Bye!" Show him you WILL treat yourself with respect even if he doesn't. 

But try to remember that if all you want is for him to kiss YOUR ass, apologize, change...it ain't gonna happen - he's sitting there wanting the same thing from YOU, why should HE do it? - and all that does is drive you two further away from each other. Let him see you're willing to love him but if he's going to be an ass, he'll find himself with less and less access to you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

choosinglove said:


> He is more rational but usually unwilling to stay rational through a conversation about my feelings.


Why should he? A conversation about 'your feelings' is just a b*tchfest, plain and simple. He knows it. You know it. He knows YOU know it. 

When you were a kid, did YOU want to sit and let your teacher tell you how badly you behaved? No? Then why would your husband want to do it?

He needs to see you put your big girl pants on, say 'that's not acceptable' and give consequences and move on. If he continues to not change, he'll continue to find himself facing more and more of your consequences until you're just plain moving out. That's HIS choice. 

But you having YET ANOTHER talk about YOUR feelings will never get you what you want.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

choosinglove said:


> We just had an absurd exchange that, to me, indicates that he doesn't see or doesn't want to see how his sweeping insult from the other day has an effect on us:
> 
> We just drove to daycare to drop off our 9-month-old. While there I noticed that tge baby's shoes were on the wrong feet. They looked funny and cute. I laughed and said "oh look daddy put your shoes on the wrong feet!" We chuckled with daycare lady. Husband said jokingly "no, mommy gave me the wrong foot!" (as I'd been holding him while husband put the shows on.
> In the car, I said "that was funny. But I thought you put his shoes on while he was sitting in the car seat. Was I holding him? I didn't know I gave you the wrong foot."
> ...


choosing, that was a HORRIBLE thing for you to do. You not only made fun of him - and BLAMED him - before you got in the daycare, you then proceeded to HUMILIATE him in front of another person, and THEN you even went ON to further shame him - and BLAME him some MORE - for the mistake. I'm surprised he didn't snarl at you. I would have.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

Really? It was honestly funny and cute. He wasn't "humiliated", nor would I have been. I know I contribute to our issues, but that really was a cute little thing--the shoes on wrong. When things are good with us, we tease each other over stuff like this with the baby. 
Perhaps he did feel embarrassed, but isn't it instructive at this point? To show him that I'm not the only one whp needs a dose f humility??


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Do you tease him in front of other people? Do YOU like to be teased in front of other people?

You think it's instructive to point out to him - as A JOKE (so you can't be blamed) - that he made a mistake? You want him to have a dose of humility? That's what moms do. 

Sorry, but it's pretty clear you were looking for an opportunity to bring him down a notch, and you took it.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

No I wasnt. Ar least not entirely. I was showing him also that if I had done the same thing, he would've used it to knock ME down a notch. And yes maybe I wanted him to see that he is not perfect. He's the one who globally insults me not the other way around. Is it so bad to want a mirror on yo reflect his stuff to him too?


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

choosinglove said:


> We just had an absurd exchange that, to me, indicates that he doesn't see or doesn't want to see how his sweeping insult from the other day has an effect on us:
> 
> We just drove to daycare to drop off our 9-month-old. While there I noticed that tge baby's shoes were on the wrong feet. They looked funny and cute. I laughed and said "oh look daddy put your shoes on the wrong feet!" We chuckled with daycare lady. Husband said jokingly "no, mommy gave me the wrong foot!" (as I'd been holding him while husband put the shows on.
> In the car, I said "that was funny. But I thought you put his shoes on while he was sitting in the car seat. Was I holding him? I didn't know I gave you the wrong foot."
> ...


Honestly, in this conversation I do see you making excuses and being defensive, and I also see you creating an argument after your husband tried to defuse the situation with humor. You took what was a joke and started to argue with it. It's like you feel this need to keep going, to make sure that you're right, like you have to make absolutely sure you are not blamed for this minor thing that your husband isn't even blaming you for, probably an insecure need.

I also see you holding a grudge about the "you're a person who makes excuses" comment without communicating to him how it made you feel, don't know what you're expecting to get out of that.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

As an example of an excuse: you criticize him, then when he gets upset that you criticize him, you try to duck out of it by saying "oh I'm so tired I don't even remember." A lot of deflection between the two of you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

choosinglove said:


> No I wasnt. Ar least not entirely. *I was showing him *also that if I had done the same thing, he would've used it to knock ME down a notch. And yes maybe I wanted him to see that he is not perfect. He's the one who globally insults me not the other way around. Is it so bad to want a mirror on yo reflect his stuff to him too?


You were trying to educate him.

That never works.

Find a way to approach it in love, not reproof.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

John Lee said:


> choosinglove said:
> 
> 
> > We just had an absurd exchange that, to me, indicates that he doesn't see or doesn't want to see how his sweeping insult from the other day has an effect on us:
> ...


Yes john you're right. The problem is that I did tell him how that "you make excuses" comment made me feel. Doing so made things worse because he did not respond well to that. I would much rather handle directly than in this obtuse way.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

turnera said:


> choosinglove said:
> 
> 
> > No I wasnt. Ar least not entirely. *I was showing him *also that if I had done the same thing, he would've used it to knock ME down a notch. And yes maybe I wanted him to see that he is not perfect. He's the one who globally insults me not the other way around. Is it so bad to want a mirror on yo reflect his stuff to him too?
> ...


I am searching for that way.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And we've been telling you. You're expecting to be able to make him change. You can't. All you can do is change YOUR actions and he will have to adapt.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

turnera said:


> And we've been telling you. You're expecting to be able to make him change. You can't. All you can do is change YOUR actions and he will have to adapt.


That's just the indirect way of making him change.

He may not adapt. You just don't have to be in the same room watching him pound sand.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

turnera said:


> And we've been telling you. You're expecting to be able to make him change. You can't. All you can do is change YOUR actions and he will have to adapt.


Well yes I know you've told me to change my actions and I'll make the effort. I'm saying that even when I do express my feelings calmly or inform him of my boundaries "with love and not reproof," he is often hostile anyway. However, I will try to find a way to do so without allowing myself to remain present as a target for his hostile reaction should he have one--like how you said on my way out the door; or perhaps in writing, so as not to invite a reaction that'll end up hurting me worse. 
I also texted him an apology for "making such a big deal about the shoes this morning."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

choosinglove said:


> Well yes I know you've told me to change my actions and I'll make the effort. I'm saying that even when I do express my feelings calmly or inform him of my boundaries "with love and not reproof," he is often hostile anyway.


So? Not yours to own. It IS yours to hand him a consequence to and walk away from, however.

Good explanation:

*Setting Boundaries
*
The purpose of setting boundaries is to take care of our self. Being forced to learn how to set boundaries is a vital part of learning to own our self, of learning to respect ourselves, of learning to love ourselves. If we never have to set a boundary, then we will never get in touch with who we really are - will never escape the enmeshment of codependence and learn to define ourselves as separate in a healthy way.
When I first encountered the concept of boundaries, I thought of them as lines that I would draw in the sand - and if you stepped across them I would shoot you (figuratively speaking.) (I had this image of some place like the Alamo - from a movie I guess - where a sword was used to draw a line in the sand, and then those that were going to stay and fight to the death stepped across it.) I thought that boundaries had to be rigid and final and somehow kind of fatal.

Some boundaries are rigid - and need to be. Boundaries such as: "It is not OK to hit me, ever." "It is not acceptable to call me certain names." "It is not acceptable to cheat on me."

No one deserves to be treated abusively. No one deserves to be lied to and betrayed.

We all deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. If we do not respect ourselves, if we do not start awakening to our right to be treated with respect and dignity (and our responsibility in creating that in our lives) - then we will be more comfortable being involved with people who abuse us then with people who treat us in loving ways. Often if we do not respect ourselves, we will end up exhibiting abusive behavior towards people who do not abuse us. On some level in our codependence, we are more comfortable with being abused (because it is what we have always known) than being treated in a loving way.

Learning to set boundaries is vital to learning to love our self, and to communicating to other's that we have worth.

There are basically three parts to a boundary. The first two are setting the boundary - the third is what we will do to defend that boundary.

If you - a description of the behavior we find unacceptable (again being as descriptive as possible.)
I will - a description of what action you will take to protect and take care of your self in the event the other person violates the boundary.

If you continue this behavior - a description of what steps you will take to protect the boundary that you have set.

One very drastic example (in the case of someone who is just learning about boundaries and has been physically abused in the past) would be:
If you ever hit me, I will call the police and press charges - and I will leave this relationship. If you continue to threaten me, I will get a restraining order and prepare to defend myself in whatever manner is necessary.
It is not always necessary or appropriate to share the third part of this formula with the other person when setting a boundary - the first two steps are the actual setting of the boundary. The third part is something we need to know for ourselves, so that we know what action we can take if the other person violates the boundary. If we set a boundary and expect the other person to abide by it automatically - then we are setting ourselves up to be a victim of our expectation.
It is not enough to set boundaries - it is necessary to be willing to do whatever it takes to enforce them. We need to be willing to go to any length, do whatever it takes to protect ourselves. This is something that really upset me when I first started learning how to set boundaries. It took great courage for me to build myself up to a point where I was willing to set a boundary. I thought that the huge thing I had done to set a boundary should be enough. Then to see that some people just ignored the boundaries I had set, seemed terribly unfair to me.

*Consequences
*
It is very important to set consequences that we are willing to enforce. If you are setting boundaries in a relationship, and you are not yet at a point where you are ready to leave the relationship - then don't say that you will leave. You can say that you will start considering all of your options including leaving - but do not state that you will do something that you are not ready yet to do. To set boundaries and not enforce them just gives the other person an excuse to continue in the same old behavior.
If you verbally abuse me by calling me names like stupid or jerk, I will confront you about your behavior and share my feelings.
If you continue that behavior I will leave the room/house/ask you to leave.
If you keep repeating this behavior I will start considering all of my options, including leaving this relationship.

~
If you break your plans with me by not showing up or by calling me at the last minute to tell me that you had something else come up, I will confront your behavior and share my feelings.
If you repeat that behavior, I will consider it to mean that you do not value or deserve my friendship - and I will have no contact with you for a month.

Since behavior patterns are quite ingrained in all of us, it is important to allow the other person some wiggle room to make a change in behavior - unless the behavior is really intolerable. To go from one extreme to the other is a reaction to a reaction - and is codependent. There are choices in between which are sometimes hard for us to see if we are reacting. To go from tolerating verbally abusive behavior to leaving a relationship in one step is swinging between extremes. It is helpful to set boundaries that allow for some gradual change.
When I ask you what is wrong and you say "Never mind," and then slam cabinet doors and rattle pots and pans and generally seem to be silently raging about something,
I feel angry, frustrated, irritated, hopeless, as if you are unwilling to communicate with me, as if I am supposed to read your mind.

I want you to communicate with me and help me to understand if I have done something that upsets you.

If something is bothering you and you will not tell me what it is, I will confront you about your behavior and share my feelings.

If you continue that behavior, I will confront your behavior, share my feelings, and insist that we go to counseling together.

If you keep repeating this behavior I will start considering all of my options, including leaving this relationship.

The consequences we set down for behavior we find unacceptable should be realistic - in that, the change that we are asking for is something that is within the others power (rather they are willing to take that responsibility is another thing altogether) - and enforceable, something that we are willing to do.
It is also important to set consequences that impact the other person more than us. Often when people are first learning how to set boundaries, they do not think it through far enough. They set boundaries that impact themselves as much or more than the other person. For example, a single parent with a teenager who needs to get consequences for coming home late, or bad grades, or whatever, may be tempted to say something like "If you miss your curfew again, you will be grounded for a month." The reality of grounding a teenager for a month is that it often means the parent is also grounded for a month. If taking away driving privileges means then you will have to drive them to school - maybe you want to choose some other consequence.

*Choices
*
Setting a boundary is not making a threat - it is communicating clearly what the consequences will be if the other person continues to treat us in an unacceptable manner. It is a consequence of the other persons behavior.
Setting a boundary is not an attempt to control the other person (although some of the people who you set boundaries with will certainly accuse you of that - just as some will interpret it as a threat) - it is a part of the process of defining ourselves and what is acceptable to us. It is a major step in taking what control we can of how we allow others to treat us. It is a vital step in taking responsibility for our self and our life.

Setting boundaries is not a more sophisticated way of manipulation - although some people will say they are setting boundaries, when in fact they are attempting to manipulate. The difference between setting a boundary in a healthy way and manipulating is: when we set a boundary we let go of the outcome.

We want the other person to change their behavior. We hope they will. But we need to own all of our choices in order to empower ourselves to take responsibility for our lives and stop setting ourselves up to be a victim. One of our choices is to remove ourselves from relationship with the person. We can leave a marriage. We can end a friendship. We can leave a job. We do not have to have any contact with our family of origin. It is vitally important to own all of our choices.

If we do not own that we have a choice to leave an abusive relationship - then we are not making a choice to stay in the relationship. Any time we do not own our choices, we are empowering victimization. We will then blame the other person, and/or blame ourselves. It is a vital part of the process of learning to love ourselves, and taking responsibility for being a co-creator in our life, to own all of our choices.

It is essential to own that we have choices in order to escape the codependent suffering victim martyr role - or the other extreme, which is being abusive in order to try to make others do it "right" (that is, do what we want them to.) Both, the people who appear to be victims and the people that appear to be abusers, are coming from a victim place in terms of blaming others for their behavior. "I wouldn't have to hit you if you didn't talk to me that way" is a victim statement. Both victim and perpetrator are coming from a victim perspective, blaming their behaviors on others - or on themselves, "I can't help it, that is just how I am."

When we look outside for self-definition and self-worth, we are giving power away and setting ourselves up to be victims. We are trained to be victims. We are taught to give our power away.

As just one small example of how pervasively we are trained to be victims, consider how often you have said, or heard someone say, "I have to go to work tomorrow." When we say "I have to" we are making a victim statement. To say, "I have to get up, and I have to go to work," is a lie. No one forces an adult to get up and go to work. The Truth is "I choose to get up and I choose to go to work today, because I choose to not have the consequences of not working." To say, "I choose," is not only the Truth, it is empowering and acknowledges an act of self-Love. When we "have to" do something we feel like a victim. And because we feel victimized, we will then be angry, and want to punish, whomever we see as forcing us to do something we do not want to do such as our family, or our boss, or society.

"And we always have a choice. If someone sticks a gun in my face and says, "Your money or your life!" I have a choice. I may not like my choice but I have one. In life we often don't like our choices because we don't know what the outcome is going to be and we are terrified of doing it 'wrong.'
Even with life events that occur in a way that we seemingly don't have a choice over (being laid off work, the car breaking down, a flood, etc.) we still have a choice over how we respond to those events. We can choose to see things that feel like, and seem to be, tragic as opportunities for growth. We can choose to focus on the half of the glass that is full and be grateful for it or to focus on the half that is empty and be the victim of it. We have a choice about where we focus our minds.

In order to become empowered, to become the co-creator in our lives, and to stop giving power to the belief that we are the victim, it is absolutely necessary to own that we have choices. As in the quotation above: if we believe that we "have" to do something then we are buying into the belief that we are the victim and don't have the power to make choices. To say "I have to go to work" is a lie. "I have to go to work if I want to eat" may be the truth but then you are making a choice to eat. The more conscious we get about our choices, the more empowered we become.

We need to take the "have to"s out of our vocabulary. As long as we reacting to life unconsciously we do not have choices. In consciousness we always have a choice. We do not "have to" do anything.

Until we own that we have a choice, we haven't made one. In other words, if you do not believe that you have a choice to leave your job, or relationship, then you have not made a choice to stay in it. You can only Truly commit yourself to something if you are consciously choosing to do it. This includes the area that is probably the single hardest job in our society today, the area that it is almost impossible not to feel trapped in some of the time - being a single parent. A single parent has the choice of giving their children up for adoption, or abandoning them. That is a choice! If a single parent believes that he/she has no choice, then they will feel trapped and resentful and will end up taking it out on their children!" - Empowerment and Victimization - the power of choice

We always have a choice. The choices may seem to be awful - but in reality, allowing ourselves to buy into the illusion that we are trapped will have worse consequences in the long run. It may seem ridiculous to suggest that a parent can abandon or give a child up for adoption - but owning our choices no matter how outrageous is a step in owning responsibility for being co-creators in our life. If we are blaming and being the victim we will never be happy.
(And this is a good example of when sharing the 3rd part of this formula is not appropriate. It would be abusive to threaten a child with being put up for adoption. This is a choice that we need to own to escape feeling trapped in our relationship with ourselves - it is strictly an internal thing. With children it is vital to not project our own internal struggle onto the child - it doesn't have anything to do with the child, it is all about our relationship with self.)

*Negotiation
*
We set a boundary to define our territory, to protect our space - physical, emotional, mental, sexual, spiritual, financial, etc. We set the boundary because it is what we need to do for our self, to protect and take care of our self. We set it knowing that the other person may not be able or willing to change their behavior - and that we are prepared to take whatever action we need to take if that proves to be the case. That action may include cutting that person out of our life completely.
I was scared of setting boundaries because the little boy in me was afraid of: hurting other people; having other people be angry at me; being abandoned; losing the relationship. Ultimately, it came down to: people will go away if I say no or set a boundary with them.

I had to become willing to take that risk. I had to decide that I had enough worth to stand up for myself even if people did go away. And some people did go away. Some people do still when I set a boundary. But I was also amazed to see that some of the people that I set a boundary with started to treat me with more respect. They were able to hear me and valued me enough to change their behavior.

By becoming willing to take the risk of setting boundaries, I got the wonderful gift of getting what I wanted - some of the time. I had to let go of the outcome and learn to accept the situation however it unfolded. I had to let go of a lot of people that I had considered friends. I came to the realization that the people I had been calling friends, were not really friends at all - because as long as I did not know how to be a friend to myself, I could not truly recognize friendship in others. As long as I was unconsciously reacting out of my old programming, the people I was attracted to were people who would abuse me, shame me, abandon and betray me.

I came to the realization that anyone who is a friend is someone I can communicate with - and be able to negotiate boundaries with. The vast majority of boundaries are in fact a negotiation rather than a rigid line in the sand. Adults need to negotiate boundaries between themselves. This is very true in romantic relationships - and is the standard for all relationships.

What we are striving for is healthy interdependent relationships. We want friends who are allies. With alliances it is necessary to negotiate boundaries. Here is what I am willing to do, and here is what I need from you. We want a romantic relationship with a partner who will share our journey with us. In order to make that possible it is necessary to communicate, share feelings, and negotiate agreements about behavior. By setting boundaries, we are communicating with another person. We are telling them who we are and what we need. It is much more effective to do that directly and honestly than to expect them to read our minds - and then punish them when they cannot.

Often it is little things that seem inconsequential that it is most important to set boundaries about. Irritating little habits or mannerism of another person. The irritating little things will grow into huge monsters unless we learn to communicate and negotiate. When we stuff our feelings we build up resentments. Resentments are victim feelings - the feeling that somebody is doing something to us. If we don't speak up and take the risk of sharing how we feel, we will end up blowing up and/or being passive aggressive - and damaging the relationship.

Learning to set boundaries is a vital part of learning to communicate in a direct and honest manner. It is impossible to have a healthy relationship with someone who has no boundaries, with someone who cannot communicate directly, and honestly. Learning how to set boundaries is a necessary step in learning to be a friend to ourselves. It is our responsibility to take care of ourselves - to protect ourselves when it is necessary. It is impossible to learn to be Loving to ourselves without owning our self - and owning our rights and responsibilities as co-creators of our lives.
Setting Personal Boundaries - protecting self


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

choosinglove said:


> I also texted him an apology for "making such a big deal about the shoes this morning."


Excellent first step.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

Choosing,

Instead of posting an example as an attempt to prove how insulting your husband can be, why not take that same example where your communication went awry, and look at your part you played in the disintegration of the interaction? Stop focusing on HIS faults...HIS issues....

Change is not gonna happen waiting on the sidelines of your life.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

turnera said:


> choosinglove said:
> 
> 
> > I also texted him an apology for "making such a big deal about the shoes this morning."
> ...


Interesting you think so. No reply from him--I know, not mine to force or expect or own. Just saying, a reply would be nice. I am more than willing to own and apologize for my part or role.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

choosinglove said:


> reply would be nice.


And see? Here you are again, complaining about what YOU want HIM to do. You're trying to change him. Stop it.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

turnera said:


> choosinglove said:
> 
> 
> > reply would be nice.
> ...


I do not think it's abnormal or codependent to hope for reciprocal kindness and respect from a spouse when an olive branch is extended. It wasn't a complaint. But, point taken. At this stage perhaps it is healthiest not to expect or hope for any particular thing from him. I need to act strong like a person with self respect and solid boundaries.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

turnera said:


> And see? Here you are again, complaining about what YOU want HIM to do. You're trying to change him. Stop it.


Hi, 

I've been following this thread with interest, as it is pretty relevant to my life...trying to learn from this situation...

Turnera, do you think she should not want him to acknowledge her apology? Should she not share with him that she feels sad when he doesn't acknowledge an apology?


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

choosinglove said:


> I do not think it's abnormal or codependent to hope for reciprocal kindness and respect from a spouse when an olive branch is extended. It wasn't a complaint. But, point taken. At this stage perhaps it is healthiest not to expect or hope for any particular thing from him. I need to act strong like a person with self respect and solid boundaries.


I can only glean so much from the two conversations I've read, and even moreso because I'm only getting your version of things -- his might be different. But I can tell you that what I sense at play is a "dynamic" that is very much two-sided. I see just as much problem in the way you communicate with him as I see in the way he communicates, without knowing more. And when these dynamics are at play in couples, they tend to extend pretty far back, and it can be hard to know who's really "more" at fault, who "started it" etc. But I can tell you that you are contributing to it.

In this thread you are focusing repeatedly on what you think is reasonable for you to expect from him, but that isn't going to get you anywhere. You think your husband should communicate a certain way, but he isn't communicating that way. I feel like you're using this thread to try to prove you're in the right, instead of focusing on how you can change your half of the dynamic.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Your H is protecting himself from you by being aggressive. You're protecting yourself from him by being...IDK, trying to get him to prove himself?

You gotta see this from his side. You both married, expecting the other one to meet your needs, make you happy, NOT Love Bust you. As time went on, this thing or that thing caused a 'sting' and hurt you, made you feel wounded and unsafe, caused you to retreat, caused you to stop communicating as though you were on the same team. BOTH of you are unhappy, and both of you are waiting for the other person to make it better.

But you're here for help, and he's not. So we're telling YOU what to do. First, stop expecting anything from him right now. He won't, he doesn't want to, you're his enemy. 

So you start meeting his Emotional Needs and you stop all the Love Busters that you know of that you do - even if you're not getting anything in return for it. You keep this up, you stay consistent, you DO it because you love him and he deserves it and you made a commitment to him. And you stop complaining about what he's doing. 

Fill out the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires for him, based on what you know, what he's told you. Learn how to treat him better, don't ask for anything for now, and for God's sake, stop baiting him. 

Just wait. You're gonna see a big change.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Livvie said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've been following this thread with interest, as it is pretty relevant to my life...trying to learn from this situation...
> 
> Turnera, do you think she should not want him to acknowledge her apology? Should she not share with him that she feels sad when he doesn't acknowledge an apology?


Livvie, no, not at this point. One, he won't do it. She's the enemy. Two, she can't live life by expecting things - that only leads to frustration.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

John Lee said:


> choosinglove said:
> 
> 
> > I do not think it's abnormal or codependent to hope for reciprocal kindness and respect from a spouse when an olive branch is extended. It wasn't a complaint. But, point taken. At this stage perhaps it is healthiest not to expect or hope for any particular thing from him. I need to act strong like a person with self respect and solid boundaries.
> ...


You have an accurate read on it. 
I'm fighting pessimism that I can change the dynamic from my end because I've tried so many times and I feel like he hasn't met me halfway. 
However, I do come across to him as demanding of certain behaviors. The demandingness I need to change in myself. I come across to him as wanting too much. But what I want, to me, isn't a lot: empathy; affirmation; respect
I'm insecure about his love for me, largely because of the harsh words he's spoken to me over the years when he's angry. And then he criticizes me for being insecure. Yes, I am trying to get him to prove he loves me--to prove that he doesn't really feel as he has said. Or that his negative comments can be balanced by positive that I don't hear much. The other night when he said it, I told him how the excuses comment made me feel, and he said too bad, he didn't care, and that a part of him really meant it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm sure you have been giving and giving. Meeting him halfway. But the mistake most people make is not understanding the other person's language. It's very hard to speak the way your spouse will hear, and not LB. Honestly, it takes education. Most of us don't have a clue how to do it right. The only reason I can see better ways is that I've been in your shoes - for 35 years. I've seen what works and what doesn't. I spent decades doing what you're now doing - why can he just do this, why doesn't he see that?

It wasn't until I forced him to go to MC or get divorced - and THAT turned out to be a big flop - and I chewed MC out for not getting my H to do anything, and she said that was never possible, that all I can do is change what I do and let him adjust to it, that I stopped tilting at windmills. Now I focus on meeting his ENs, not LBing, and above all showing him what I will no longer tolerate. This is my MC's advice, so it will probably help you too.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

Except for the fact that you said my H is much worse than yours was, doesn't respect or want to hold onto me like yours did, and you wouldn't put up with the crap I am. I'm not arguing to be dramatic--I'm just saying, I will definitely try, but won't expect the same result gust because it went that way for you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You're still not understanding. It DOESN'T MATTER who you're married to - unless he's abusive, in which case you must leave - because this _isn't about him_. What matters is what YOU do because it's the right thing to do, not because of who you're married to, not because of his personality. The things we are telling you are what YOU need to do, for YOU.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

choosinglove said:


> No I wasnt. Ar least not entirely. I was showing him also that if I had done the same thing, he would've used it to knock ME down a notch. And yes maybe I wanted him to see that he is not perfect. He's the one who globally insults me not the other way around. Is it so bad to want a mirror on yo reflect his stuff to him too?


choosinglove, this won't work. I was there, where you are now. I was doing this, trying to show him how it feels to be picked on. But it didn't work. He would not see it that way, it was the best way to escalate conflict. WE BOTH WOULD FEED OUR ANGER AND RESENTMENT ON THIS. We threw f''''cks and other nasty at each other.

It won't stop until you find your way deep inside. and understand that this can not continue this way. Once you realize that, then you will hold your head up high, and start demanding respect - without the fear of the consequences. Once the fear is gone, you become a new, stronger, smarter person. He is bully. Bullies respect strength, they need to be shown their place. They won't do it by itself.

You are not there yet. You are still lost, scared, resentful, and trying to win this marriage by more fights. it will take a lot of thinking, reading books, reading TAM, writing on TAM, before you'll get to your own conclusions. do individual therapy.


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## choosinglove (Feb 1, 2015)

Update:
Believe it or not, my husband and I actually had a decent discussion about this last night. 
He started with his hackles up and pessimistic, but then he said "ok. Just say what you need to say."
So I first said I know I've been demanding of your behaviors lately, I Acknowledge that. Then I told him I'm happy and willing to look at my own issues but not if they are told to me as an insult.
I explained the reasons why the "excuses" comment had bothered me, and he responded that I have an insecurity issue where I feel I need to prove something to him. (What John lee noticed too) Instead of getting hurt and offended, I agreed and said yes I do, that's my issue to deal with. 
From there the conversation was less combative and more productive than a relationship talk has gone in I don't know how long. He apologized for insulting me. And I successfully stopped myself from going on and on--which is usually hard for me. 
We're not out of the woods yet and I still need to work on defining and enforcing boundaries. But now I feel I'm at at a much better starting point from which to do that.


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## DoneWithHurting (Feb 4, 2015)

OK... how about this... advice wanted.
M, married 30 years.
Wife under stress from her family side issues.

sex - she must initiate or no sex. was a major issue as she rarely initiated and sex is usually an issue. Her thinking all i want is sex. far from truth. She only wants 2 positions and no oral or manual.
I comply as sex has been consistant at 1-2x / week which i think is minimum and she thinks is maximum.

We work together and therefore spend lots of time together whuch we both enjoy. We do have outside interests not involving the other couple times a week. 

There is no cheating I know for a fact as I have been reading TAM for over a year and know the deal. I have watched closely.

Monday she says "we spend too much time together"
Wed pm she says "want a hand job?" (first time EVER) I enthusiastically accept. Within one minute of a lousy attempt she falls asleep - at 5:30 PM!
Thurs am - she tells me about a conversation she has with a friend about "not having it all and being happy with what you have" she says "like i want a guy who... (bigger and wealthier than i am) and I now speak up and take offense which escalates into an arguement and she then blurts out "and you suck in bed".

Now... She almost always orgasms. She always has to go into fantasy for that. She always has to initiate and we can only do what she wants which is quite a limited menu. I of course want much more variety but have been settling for what she is comfortable with. 

"and you suck in bed"

I lost it. I blurted out (fighting my PA tendencies) "you are boring in bed. You don't want me to do anything else and have the nerve to say that?". A quiet tension prevails and my PA kicks in.

Next moring over texts she says sorry a million times, then "get over it".

So in summary - she chips away at my manhood then cuts it off completely and tells me to "get over it".

I believe that like when drinking, sometimes the truth comes out when stressed. To make it all worse, i saw her search " never in love with husband" ... NEWS TO ME! after 30 years.

What gives?


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