# I've graduated- to the divorce forum. very sad



## maxter

Well, I went to the doctor this morning to get tested for STD's. Have to wait a week to get the results. It's gonna be a looong week. I've never had any symptoms what so ever, but better to be sure.

Here's my sad story for those wishing to know:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...about-loose-my-mind-trapped-cant-get-out.html

I also visited two attorneys. Both pretty much told me the same thing. I'M SCREWED! I'm very depressed about this. She's going to get 1/2 of everything as a prize for ****ing another guy. she brought nothing to the marriage except $8K in debt and a few pieces of furniture. Now she gets 1/2 the equity in the house and 1/2 my retirement. What a crock! I will either have to take out a huge loan to buy her 1/2 of the house back or we sell it (great time to do that, eh?) and totally disrupt our kids lives, everything they've known and lived through is in this house. Uhg!

Get this- while I'm between lawyer appointments, my W texts me saying she knows its way too late, but she's trully sorry for hurting me. OMG! I could just punch something! Then she texts to ask if the door is permanently closed. To which I respond "Are you ****ing kidding me? After you included our two children in your $hit? YES!!!" To which she responds she would never let anything happen to them (while smoking pot and having an all night sex-capade). I mean come one! How can a mother even say that. Man, she's looking more and more wacked out mentally. She's not even able to reason properly and keeps telling me my drinking started all this.

Typical blame shifting. She's 100% accountable for the affair. I did contribute 50% of the hurt before that, but I cleaned up my act 3 1/2yrs ago and been sober since. I'm just sick to my stomach with all this. Just wish it could be over.

I see another attorney tomorrow and then try to digest all this over the weekend. Because next week, I need to file and get this started.


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## Ticonderoga

Don't know the break down $$$ wise between the 401 K and house. Usually you are better off to give her the house and keep your the 401K. Keeps the kids stable as well. Just a thought.

Not being a smart ass.....but don't forget the cheaper to keep her thought process.


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## maxter

Ticonderoga said:


> Don't know the break down $$$ wise between the 401 K and house. Usually you are better off to give her the house and keep your the 401K. Keeps the kids stable as well. Just a thought.
> 
> Not being a smart ass.....but don't forget the cheaper to keep her thought process.


The $$$ numbers are spinning me into the ground. Too many options, too many trade-offs that can be done to swap money back and forth until both parties have equitable distribution. All I can remember at the moment is the shared marital value of my 401k is almost equal to the equity in our house. So yes, I could give up the house and keep the 401K. I think that would be the better return long run. I don't need to have a huge house (not that ours is to start with) to live in. I can deal with having an apartment or small house until I could rebound enough to buy again. I'm not too picky.

God yes, I think about 'cheaper to keep her'. Maybe too much. I can't wrap my mind around how I could continue to live in a loveless marriage, roommate condition while knowing she's out screwing someone else. And we don't have enough bedrooms to split up. I can't stay in the same bed with her for years to come. That scenario would be emotional torture.


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## Ticonderoga

Dumb question....do you still love her underneath it all ??? Tough question I know. People do make stupid mistakes like she did, but it sounds like she wants you.....talk to her. Might do some soul searching....take some time before pulling the trigger on the big D.


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## maxter

Ticonderoga said:


> Dumb question....do you still love her underneath it all ??? Tough question I know. People do make stupid mistakes like she did, but it sounds like she wants you.....talk to her. Might do some soul searching....take some time before pulling the trigger on the big D.


Do I still love her? Well, yes on some level. But I can't wrap my brain around what she just did this weekend. She USED our girls as an excuse to get a hotel suite so they could spend the night together WHILE MY KIDS WERE ASLEEP IN THE NEXT ROOM. That right there just tore me up inside. All the anger and resentment I have about the long term A that I thought I could work through in MC (if she really committed herself), all that just rose to the surface and it feels locked in place. Like it's glued there and is never going to dissipate.

She knows I saw a lawyer yesterday because I wasn't at work. When asked, I told her that I had a consultation. She started talking about the kids and custody right away. She asks me if I think she's a bad mother. I just look at her like WTF? I asked her if a good mom would do what she did this weekend. She tells me our girls mean everything to her. She asks me if I'm going to go after full custody because of her actions. I simply tell her I haven't decided anything and all options are on the table right now. She tells me she wants to keep the girls environment the same, no moving out, no 50/50 split. She doesn't want them affected by a separation. Then she tells me she wants to stay in the house with them. I tell her she's dreaming if she expects that outcome.

Later last night and again this morning, she calls me with desperation in her voice. Begging me not to file. Telling me she's effed all this up. Telling me she want's me to give her more time to fix herself. I tell her that her words are meaningless vapor to me. They have no worth anymore. I tell her actions speak louder than words. And all her actions & behaviors are negative. We have a few MC sessions scheduled over the next two months. She asked me if she could have a couple to herself. I agree, no problem there. She says she's been calling her IC, but nothing is available till mid Sept.

I knew this was going to happen when I started the D process. The problem is I can't tell what's real or not anymore. She lies and withholds info in MC. I can't believe anything she says. So I'm inclined to continue with file D next week. I can always stop it if she's able to prove herself. And in my state there can be a delay of up to 2yrs before final if both parties don't agree to sign. So she's got 2yrs to prove herself. But of course I will since have moved out and started a new life for myself. I can't wait around any longer. I need to move on and live for myself and my two girls. What a complete mess our lives are. Human beings can do some really stupid things.


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## Ticonderoga

She did show very poor judgement with her actions. Sounds like you have to focus on yourself and get some space from it all.


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## Jellybeans

twindad said:


> Then she texts to ask if the door is permanently closed. To which I respond "Are you ****ing kidding me?


I know this wasn't meant to be funny but I :rofl:. 

Good for you for getting tested. I would not waiver from the divorce. Why? Because she was just with the OM this weekend in a hotel with your daughters in the room next to her. Those aren't the actions of someone who is remorseful, truly remorseful, and wants to work on things. She's still having an affair. Until that ends, I wouldn't take D off the table. And I wouldn't go to MC with her at all. MC is for two people who ar eregbuilding their marriage, not a place to go to when one person is still actively f-cking someone else and carrying on the relationship.

Kudos for seeing a lawyer. Be firm. Stand your ground. 

She sounds like she's all over the place mentally. Good.

Oh and welcome to The Dark Side (divorce forum). I promise you--it's not that bad.


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## Ten_year_hubby

Twindad,

Regading the cost, that's at least what you would have to spend if you stayed with her leaving you to decide what you want to do for reasons other than money


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## maxter

JB-
Yeah, I actually chuckled too when I got the text because it was so ridiculous. I mean really? You have to ask after what just happended? Geesh.

Ticon-
Yes, I definitely need some space from this mess. I'm suffocating right now.

I saw another lawyer today and got basically the same perspective as the previous two. Don't know which one I'll go with yet. All three seemed OK. Although the youngster didn't impress me as much as the older, more experienced guys. No matter what, this is going to cost 'us' $4-5 grand ($2.5K each) and that's if everything goes smoothly and there are no battles over custody or assets.

Tonight the W is taking our girls and two of their friends to the movies so I'll have some quite time to myself. Looking forward to it. Then Sunday our two girls got invited to a sleepover at a friends house. W told me that will give us time to talk things over without any interruptions. Not looking forward to that. I'm so pissed about what she did this past weekend, I don't really want to talk about possibility of R. I'm not offering it anymore. All she's going to do is beg and plead for me not to file. Beg for more time to fix herself. She says I'm just saying no R because I'm really furious with her actions and that as time passes I may be open to it- so don't divorce me yet. From my perspective what she did involving our kids is a major dealbreaker.


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## Jellybeans

Sit down and weigh the props/cons of each lawyer you spoke with and choose one you gel well with and who "gets" you and empathizes w/ you and has a good success rate (one who will get the job done).

If you guys meet to discuss legalties, then great. Keep is cool and calm and collected. Don't be emotional. Don't bring up the affair, don't bring up anything (unless she does). If she starts on about R, tell her "No. You are still having an affair and I wouldn't even consider R with you unless that's over. It's still actively happening-and even if it did end, I make no guarantees I'd want to with you since you've lost so much of my trust and respect." 

If she keeps going on about it it tell her "Stop. I already told you how I feel." 
Kapiche!


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## Ticonderoga

Jellybeans said:


> Don't be emotional. Don't bring up the affair, don't bring up anything (unless she does). If she starts on about R, tell her "No. You are still having an affair and I wouldn't even consider R with you unless that's over. It's still actively happening-and even if it did end, I make no guarantees I'd want to with you since you've lost so much of my trust and respect."
> 
> If she keeps going on about it it tell her "Stop. I already told you how I feel."
> Kapiche!


 That is very easy to sit down and write.....but in practice so soon after the "event" there typically will be a lot of emotions flying around, anger, things said and blah, blah. I was completely drained after a few adult discussions with my other half. I was surprised at how deeply it effected me.


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## Jellybeans

Yeah, easier said than done, but hte sooner you master this, the sooner you can deal with this and weed out a lot of unncessary negative energy.

He who angers you controls you. 

Keep it professional--no talks about anything unrelated to legalities and co-parenting.


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## Ticonderoga

Twin dad - Food for thought.....not trying to be a jerk or anything, but offer a counter point argument. Keep in mind forums are one dimensional and can't capture the big picture of your story. It struck me as odd in your original post where you claimed to have been drinking and emotionally checked out of the marriage for three years. Then you go to make a point of saying you fixed yourself by not drinking and reengaging in the marriage. BUT it struck me as odd because you claimed since you did all that everything was ok. What did do to help her "emotionally" from the damage you caused ???? I'm learning women can hold resentment in for a long time and when it finally comes out lord have mercy.

Here is an analogy....maybe a bad one. Your wife is driving her car completely stopped at a light. You come along and rear end her car. Both cars are smashed up. Your grill, hood bumper and so forth. Her car has the tail lights broken, trunk won't open and bumper all bent to hell....but it is still drivable. You get your car all repaired and spiffy with a new coat of wax even. She on the other hand is stuck driving her mangled car every day because she can't get it fixed. So.....she has to look at it everyday for three years getting more resentful by the day. 

At some point her resentment is probably going to bite you in the ass in the above story. I believe this might be what happened in your marriage. What she did you was off the charts hurtful, reckless and dumb to name a few...but there is a flip side to it all.


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## Craggy456

Ticonderoga said:


> I'm learning women can hold resentment in for a long time and when it finally comes out lord have mercy.


There is NO mercy when the b*tch switch is flipped :rofl:


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## maxter

JB-
Yes, I know I need to keep all discusions above board. But as Ticon pointed out, it's so soon after this major event that my emotions are flying high. I really need to work on restraining myself. Here's why:

W came home from work to pick up the girls to take them to the movies. She immediately sits down and starts crying. I say nothing, just waiting on her. She begins with saying how screwed she is financially. She was crunching 'numbers' today and figured out on her salary she can't pay for car insurance, utilities, food, you name it. Says she needs a new van because hers is old and worn out, that I got a newer car two years ago (because I was driving an 18yr old Jeep with 175K on it). She can't afford a newer car, blah, blah. I planned all this to dump her because over the past 3 1/2 yrs of the affair I've slowly been pulling myself away.

She can't see the reality of it all. I took her off my credit card so she wouldn't spend money on the OM. She freaked out saying I was jeapardizing our kids because she had no way to cover an emergency when traveling to her relatives. Good point! So I gave her a prepaid visa worth $500. Not good enough of course. She goes and gets a card in her name only. But the limit is low due to her credit score. So what's she do? She charges up all kinds of stuff and maxes it out. So what good is that for an emergency??? I try to pay it down but she recharges faster than we can pay it off. She thinks I'm stiffing her by leaving her with that debt. I split our savings 50/50 three months ago when I found the A going strong again behind my back. Yeah, it's all a conspiracy to get her. Gimme a break.

Well, all the back and forth got me going and I said some things I shouldn't have (but they're true). I told her to go get whatever $$ she's short from her lover. I told her she wasn't worried about finances while she was bangin him Saturday night. Those comments enraged her so I left the room to get the girls ready to leave. She starts cursing at me and saying her own hurtful things about stuff that happened years ago.

I leave that room to get away and she finally calms down and gets a bite to eat. Then as they are leaving for the movies, she comes to me and says "I don't want to fight like that". I agree with her. I tell her we need to stay calm and focused to work out the details of this D. So they get in the van. A second later my one daughter comes in and yells to me "why aren't you going?" I tell her I never said I was going, that this was a playdate with her best friend. She gets angry with me and stomps out. Wife comes back in and says "so you're really not going?" To which I remind her I told her that a noon today. That I had other things to do and the girls each had their friends to see the movie with. I think my W put her up to coming in to get me. They leave and 5 mins later, the W calls and says theres an accident and they were detoured and she's lost. She says to me "once again you dump us and look what happened. We'll miss the start of the movie." I can't win.

Ticon-
What have I done to help her heal emotionally? Well, the only thing I have control over is me and to improve myself which I have done in many areas. Don't get me wrong- I'm not perfect and still have work to do. I've taken ownership for the wrongs I've committed and apologized many times. I've been open and available for MC at any time. I can't get inside her head and repair her thoughts or feelings. Only she can do that with help from her IC or we could work on it together in MC. But this whole time since D day she's been involved in the A. MC stopped 1 1/2 years ago because she was faking it, lying to the therapist and it looked like things improved between us. She had me fooled and the counselor. So she really hasn't done the necessary work within herself to heal. Some of the things shes saying the last few days confirm that to me. There are alot of skeletons in her closet from growing up and from our tormented past. Not sure if that answers your question or not.

Oh, forgot to add. I checked her texting today. She texted the OM telling him her plans with our girls tonight and hoping he was doing something fun with his kids. So crying to me about D and still involved with the OM. Screw her!!!


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## Jellybeans

She's a basketcase. Keep doing what you're doing. If she brings up R again call her out on the texts she sent him. Is OM in a relationship? If so...out him to his partner. Stand tall. She's acting very immature.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

Jellybeans said:


> She's a basketcase. Keep doing what you're doing. If she brings up R again call her out on the texts she sent him. Is OM in a relationship? If so...out him to his partner. Stand tall. She's acting very immature.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, as she starts to see the cold, hard reality of her future, she is falling apart. And yes, the next time she talks about R, I will be pointing that very fact out to her. She's still in this mode of she can fool me, play me, and keep things going on the side with him. The OM divorced his drunk, cheating 2nd wife early this year. But he is seeing another married woman and my wife and who knows who else? He is a real POS, low life. What gets me is he is a professional golf instructor- works with up and coming pro golfers. Looks like mr, perfect on the outside. But inside he's a pot smoking, cheater, who uses women and breaks up families. You just never know about some people. Thanks for the encouragement to keep going.


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## maxter

The W worked a half day so I took our girls to the local pool. It was hot and the water felt great. I played with them in the pool and nearby playground. We were there for 4 1/2 hrs. It was a wonderful time spent with them.

The W got off work and came over to the pool. We didn't talk much at all. Just a few words about upcoming activities for the girls this week. I caught her checking my cell phone a couple times when I stepped away or got in the pool. I had to laugh. There is nothing on there of any significance. Just the texts between her and I. And business calls. Don't know what she was looking for. She even dialed my voicemail, but doesn't have the access code.

We came home and I had planned a cookout supper, with lamb chops on the grill, corn on the cob, fresh strawberrys and what not. So I started prepping and cooking and while I was messing around with the grill, she steps in and helps with the side dishes. I didn't say anything, just let her continue. We had a delicious but very quite family meal together.

Tonight is the night our girls go to a sleepover nearby at a friends house. I'm dreading tonight alone with her. Just sleeping in the same bed each night makes me want to vomit. I keep thinking that if things were better, this would have been a wonderful night together- nice dinner, cuddle up for a movie, lots of passionate sex and no interruptions from the kids. Now all that is gone and replaced with tension plus lots of emotional pain that manifests into physical pain sometimes. This really hurts


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## Ticonderoga

twindad said:


> Oh, forgot to add. I checked her texting today. She texted the OM telling him her plans with our girls tonight and hoping he was doing something fun with his kids. So crying to me about D and still involved with the OM. Screw her!!!



Yup, it certainly seems like it is time to flush the toilet and get out of the marriage. I wish you the best my friend.


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## Ticonderoga

twindad said:


> Tonight is the night our girls go to a sleepover nearby at a friends house. I'm dreading tonight alone with her. Just sleeping in the same bed each night makes me want to vomit. I keep thinking that if things were better, this would have been a wonderful night together- nice dinner, cuddle up for a movie, lots of passionate sex and no interruptions from the kids. Now all that is gone and replaced with tension plus lots of emotional pain that manifests into physical pain sometimes. This really hurts



Geez, that is sad. I have the same sort of thing going on in my house minus kids. It's like a death in the family just hanging in the air and won't go away.


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## NotaGoodSlave

twindad said:


> Well, I went to the doctor this morning to get tested for STD's. Have to wait a week to get the results. It's gonna be a looong week. I've never had any symptoms what so ever, but better to be sure.
> 
> Here's my sad story for those wishing to know:
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...about-loose-my-mind-trapped-cant-get-out.html
> 
> I also visited two attorneys. Both pretty much told me the same thing. I'M SCREWED! I'm very depressed about this. She's going to get 1/2 of everything as a prize for ****ing another guy. she brought nothing to the marriage except $8K in debt and a few pieces of furniture. Now she gets 1/2 the equity in the house and 1/2 my retirement. What a crock! I will either have to take out a huge loan to buy her 1/2 of the house back or we sell it (great time to do that, eh?) and totally disrupt our kids lives, everything they've known and lived through is in this house. Uhg!
> 
> Get this- while I'm between lawyer appointments, my W texts me saying she knows its way too late, but she's trully sorry for hurting me. OMG! I could just punch something! Then she texts to ask if the door is permanently closed. To which I respond "Are you ****ing kidding me? After you included our two children in your $hit? YES!!!" To which she responds she would never let anything happen to them (while smoking pot and having an all night sex-capade). I mean come one! How can a mother even say that. Man, she's looking more and more wacked out mentally. She's not even able to reason properly and keeps telling me my drinking started all this.
> 
> Typical blame shifting. She's 100% accountable for the affair. I did contribute 50% of the hurt before that, but I cleaned up my act 3 1/2yrs ago and been sober since. I'm just sick to my stomach with all this. Just wish it could be over.
> 
> I see another attorney tomorrow and then try to digest all this over the weekend. Because next week, I need to file and get this started.


Have you learned your lesson now about why men should NEVER sign a contract of marriage?

There is no upside............it is all downside risk.


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## maxter

UPDATE-
Well, Sunday was a very difficult day for me. I guess since I'll be filing D this week, my emotions were just churning inside me. I kept having images of my W and OM screwing in the hotel suite as my little girls slept in the next room. I flipped from pure rage & screaming into thin air to sobbing uncontrollably then back again. After our girls went to their sleepover at a friends house, I expected her to come to me and talk separation and custody. But she didn't. We just kept to ourselves in opposite sides of the house. Took me quite awhile to fall asleep last night. I just couldn't stop my mind from going on and on with bad thoughts.

Today I'm changing my direct deposit to my new personal checking account. I've setup online banking so I can quickly transfer funds into our joint checking to pay bills. I also have another appt. with an attorney local to me. Probably hear the same thing as from the others. Then I need to choose one and proceed.

Also, tonight I plan on seeing my parents and telling them the whole story. This is gonna suck big time! They know we have problems from past situations, but they have no clue about the affair or even my drinking problem. I'm gonna lay it all out including the $hit I have done to wreck this marriage. It's gonna be painful for everyone. I need to bring them into the picture for both emotional support and financial support. I don't have enough liquid cash to pay the retainer fee for legal representation. So I'll have to borrow it from them.


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## maxter

UPDATE-
As mentioned I went to see yet another lawyer for a consultation. I almost cancelled because I thought he's just going to tell me the same as everyone else. But I went anyway. Boy, I'm glad I did because he's the one I want. Yes, the basics for D were the same, but he just came across so smooth and confident. He's an older gentleman with years of experience. And get this- No Retainer Fee! When I asked about it he said "Don't worry about it, I know you're good for it". I'm thinking "what the heck?". I ask again to be sure. He says he doesn't need a retainer from me because he sees I'm a long time local resident with long term stable employment in the same town. I couldn't believe it. Anyway he's the one I'm going with.

Last night after going to bed, my W read one of her books for about 10 minutes. Then she shut off the light and was silent for another 10. Then she starts asking me questions about our relationship, our past troubles, why I did certain things, how she felt inside when I pushed her away emotionally, when I disconnected from her, when I was drinking all the time. I answered them as honestly as I could and accepted blame for the rift I caused during that part of our marriage.

I know I did not live up to my vows and mistreated her. She told me before it got really bad when our girls were very young (like 1-3yrs old) she was very happy, loved me deeply, and was living her dream come true as a wife & mother. But as time went on she could see me starting to withdraw into myself. I still struggle to figure out where I went off track. 

Looking back I had alot of issues colliding at once. We had alot of stress with two twin girls, then toddlers. It was a huge amount of effort and we both dove in fully. I felt as though I was loosing my sense of self. I was no longer #1 to my wife anymore. On the surface I knew the kids must come first, but on some subconcious level I was feeling left out, less important. I also had issues with possesiveness. I was very attached to 'things' like the house which I built before we met, like my classic car, like me electronics and book collection,etc. I didn't feel comfortable sharing these things with others mainly because I put all the effort into acquiring them and I took pride in being able to do that as a single person. Now I see how selfish I was and how foolish my thoughts were about just objects that in and of themselves mean nothing. I was hooked on the manner in which I was able to achieve them. Giving them up or sharing them somehow made me feel like all my hard efforts were not appreciated. All of this stuff and more grew into bitterness. Bitterness and anger that I directed towards my wife.

I explained all this to her last night. It really confused her. She asked if she did something wrong at the time to cause this. Or was there something she failed to do. I told her 'no' to both questions. From my understanding these issues were within myself. Not without outside influence mind you. But they manifested inside me and I became lost. I didn't have the mental tools to cope with what I was feeling. I lost my sense of who I was and the type of person/husband I should have been. I wasn't happy with who I had become and turned to drinking to cover up the hatred I had developed for me, the pain I felt inside. And the booze was the end of 'us'. I became addicted. She couldn't cope and made a very bad choice to go outside the marriage.

ok, wow. I really rambled on here. Sorry about that, but it was all on my mind and I wanted to get it out. Expell it from my system. Well, I'm done for now.


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## Sod

You're doing the right thing looking at all your options for a lawyer. They can be extremely expensive and you need to feel comfortable that you have someone you feel comfortable with in your corner. As you yourself said, your emotions are probably clouding your judgement and you need someone to ensure that any divorce is fair to you and your kids in the long run.

Everyone makes choices and there are always consequences. I feel for you and can relate to the self evaluation you are going through. Stay strong, identify what you can and work on improving it for the long term.


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## HurtinginTN

twindad said:


> ok, wow. I really rambled on here. Sorry about that, but it was all on my mind and I wanted to get it out. Expell it from my system. Well, I'm done for now.



Don't be sorry. I, for one, benefitted from reading your self-examination. I'm sure there are others also. It helps you to get things out. It also helps others to be able to read it.


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## maxter

Called my attorney today. Told him to draft up the divorce complaint. I go in Thursday to review and sign it. Then it gets filed at the courthouse and she will be served via registered mail. So maybe within a week or so the D is off the ground. Then let the $hitstorm start!

I stumbled across a small house for rent near where I work. I have an appt. Saturday to go see it. Its $100 over my budget, but what the heck. Maybe I can negotiate a smaller rent in exchange for cash up front and/or 1yr lease?

That's it for now. Gotta go take my one daughter to horse riding lessons.


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## maxter

UPDATE-
OK, last night was brutal when W came home. The crapstorm has started early. Where do I even begin? She saw an attorney yesterday. Either he misguided her or she misunderstands. She tells me she wants full physical and legal custody. Full legal almost never happens unless one parent is in jail or incapacitated- something really out of the ordinary. Then she says, she promises (OMG!) not to be a ***** or get nasty. After which she asks me if I will fight it and get nasty, expose her affair, etc. I tell her I want 50/50 and I will fight for my rights as defined by the law in our state. She's pissed! She says she doesn't want a battle, doesn't want our girls going before a judge to be interviewed (too traumatic). Plays the simpathy card. Of course I see right through it. 

Then she goes into our pending separation. Asks when I plan on moving out. I tell her I just started looking Monday, and the market isn't that good right now for decent rentals in our area. She starts pointing out different appartment complexes I should check out (how nice of her!). All of them are slums. She tells me the sooner the better that I get out. She thinks if she keeps the girls with her, set the status quo, then advantage is hers for getting full custody. She tells me she's not going ANYWHERE, meaning she's not leaving the house. For some reason she thinks because she's the mom, she automatically gets to stay in the house. Yes, that could happen and may be for the best for our girls short term during the D process, but when I asked her how she will pay for it she doesn't know. Then she says she will get spousal support because her salary is much lower than mine. So I ask her- after I pay her child support and maybe spousal support, how will she be able to pay for everything (mortgage, HELOC, all the utilitie bills, food, gas, insurance etc). She just shakes her head as if realizing even sticking it to me won't solve the bigger issue. It basically takes most of my salary to pay for all these things. And they can't take it all away and just give it to her. She only gets a percentage based on tables and formulas defined by state law.

I try to go over our options for the house. There are only three. We either sell it and split equity, she gets it and takes over responsibility for all payments and debt, or I get it and do the same. Well, I no sooner got out the last part of that and she jumps up out of the chair pointing her finger at me saying "I knew it, I knew you were going after the house". She's seething mad. I stay calm and attempt to explain the pro's and con's. She doesn't want option one (to sell) because she wants the kids to stay in the house. She can't afford option two. Option three is the only one that seems to fit what we want for the kids. I tell her I want what works best for our situation and what's best for our girls. I tell her I'm OK with selling the house, splitting the money and we go our separate ways. She has a mindset that I'm gonna punish her somehow even though I tell her I won't do that. I tell her doing that accomplishes nothing for any of us. Retribution is not what I want.

So she asks me if I filed. To which I don't respond. She asks again and I say I don't have an answer for her, no comment. She presses even more getting ticked off, saying I'm being nasty just like she knew I would be. She's upset because I won't tell her why I have a follow up doctor appt. tomorrow. Says she's worried I might have some kind of medical condition- maybe from all the stress. Gee, so glad you're worried about me honey

Finally after 40 minutes of this, she just breaks down, cries and sobs uncontrollably. She's had enough. I start to say something and she waves me off and goes upstairs to put the girls to bed. So I run out to the grocery store to get some things we're out of. 

When I return she's in our bed with both girls watching a movie. I step in, say high, ask the girls what they watching. One daughter immediately reprimands me "why didn't you cook mommy supper? She doesn't have anything to eat!" I'm thinking to myself "what's she talking about?". I respond that I did cook dinner for all of us and the leftovers are in the frig. W says "yeah, raw chicked makes a great meal". Then I get it. There were a couple pieces of chicken left that I didn't cook. I put those in wrapping paper. The rest I cooked up with two side dishes and put the left overs in the frig. She saw the raw pieces and just assumed I screwed her over. After explaining the misunderstanding the W does apologize.

So it's now 10:30pm and I need to get to bed. I tell the girls this and they respond "mommy said we can sleep with her tonight". Woah, wait just a minute. She's trying to push me out of the bedroom, out of my own bed. Not happening! So I get ready, ask daughter to slide over and lay on about 6" of the edge and pretend to go to sleep. Well, their movie ended, W saw I wasn't going to leave and finally tells the girls they must go to their own rooms.

This morning I wake up, get ready for work and while I'm getting dressed in the bedroom, W rolls over and starts talking again. She's tired and exhausted- didn't sleep well I guess. Her voice is craggy, bags under her eyes. She tells me to take my time finding a place- stay as long as I like. I ask why. She says the longer I stay, the more debts we can pay off which is true. I tell her I will continue to look and when I find suitable accomodations I will be moving out. Then she asks about custody again. What do I want? I tell her again 50/50. She asks is that physical or legal? I say it would be both. I tell her again we would need to talk about schedule because there are 100 ways it could be done. She says she wants them during the weekdays and I can have weekends. So I ask her you don't want any weekends? She retracts and says, no you can have every other. I say that's not enough, I want 50/50. I suggest we split the week 3days/4days then alternate. That way she gets some weekdays w/weekends and so do I. She appears open to the idea.

Then she asks me if I'm wondering why she has a doctor appointment today (she just told me yesterday so it's new). I said no I'm not. She tells me she's getting tested for STD's just like I did. She says she figured out what I was doing after she thought about it for awhile, with my follow up appt. and all. OK, I don't know what to think about her getting tested. That's really bizarre since she's shown no sign of giving up the affair. Finally I have to leave for work and she says to me "I want to fix this. I'm going to keep us together as a family". Oh boy! She just doesn't get it- she broke me, pushed me too far this last time and there's no chance of repairing this marriage.

As JB said earlier- she's a basket case. And living in dreamland.


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## Ticonderoga

Sounds like you are sticking to your guns and doing the right things. I hope things come around for you. She seems like a fish flopping around on the hook right now. 

My parents got divorced. Shuttling between them was very hard. I hated it and always felt I to adjust to one house to the other with different friends....it kept me off balance. When I got older I really pushed back on the process and stopped going to my dads most of the time. Just think about kids and the effect it has on your relationship with them long term while dividing things up. I'm sure folks can give you good advice on this.


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## maxter

Ticonderoga said:


> Sounds like you are sticking to your guns and doing the right things. I hope things come around for you. She seems like a fish flopping around on the hook right now.
> 
> My parents got divorced. Shuttling between them was very hard. I hated it and always felt I to adjust to one house to the other with different friends....it kept me off balance. When I got older I really pushed back on the process and stopped going to my dads most of the time. Just think about kids and the effect it has on your relationship with them long term while dividing things up. I'm sure folks can give you good advice on this.


Uhg! Ticon- I'm so sorry that you felt that way about your situation. How old were you when they divorced? How far apart where they? Was it like 10min drive or 1hr? I plan to be very close to where my kids will live & go to school. Of course they are still different neighborhoods, different exposure to friends.


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## aug

I think 50/50 for the kids is fair.


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## HurtinginTN

aug said:


> I think 50/50 for the kids is fair.


:iagree: Or joint physical and legal custody. I believe that is the correct wording. Splitting the time as nearly equal as possible is the best, in my opinion.


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## Riverside MFT

Twindad, I've been following your situation and get sick as I read your posts (though I want to know what happens with you and your family--so keep posting. Don't worry about me, I'll just try taking some TUMS before reading your posts). I am truly sorry for what you are going through. A couple of questions:
Do you regret that you married your wife? I know you don't regret having your children at all, but do regret getting married to your wife?
What will you do if she eventually comes back? The lust and the passion of the affair could end anytime and she could come crawling back (though it sounds as if she is doing that already, but she still keeps in contact with the OM).
Are you going to start into the dating scene? or is that the least of your worries?


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## RunningOnEmpty

twindad, as I said in your other thread. If you move out, your wife WILL establish status quo, and there will be no way you'll get 50/50 custody.

If you really want 50/50 you need to stay put in your house, with your kids until you get a temp order signed by a judge.

Moving out is the worst mistake you can make.


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## maxter

RunningOnEmpty said:


> twindad, as I said in your other thread. If you move out, your wife WILL establish status quo, and there will be no way you'll get 50/50 custody.
> 
> If you really want 50/50 you need to stay put in your house, with your kids until you get a temp order signed by a judge.
> 
> Moving out is the worst mistake you can make.


Yes, she could attempt to set the status quo by withholding access to my kids. My attorney said it would be best if we have an established agreement about custody between my W and I which I'm working on now. He said if we have that in place (verbal and/or written agreement between the two of us) and the she blocks me from access, then I immediately file a custody complaint and the courts take it up. I would never move out and then allow the kids to stay with her for weeks and weeks allowing her to create a status quo. I would take action immediately. Does that make sense to you? Or am I missing something?


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## maxter

UPDATE-
Well, I have good news out of all this crap. Had my follow up with my doctor this morning. I tested NEGATIVE for all STD's. However I'm not totally in the clear yet. Due to the incubation period for HIV and timing of my last contact with her, I have to get retested for HIV 6mos from now.

I also stopped by the attorneys office to verify the Divorce Claim document and sign it. Now it goes across the street to the court house to be entered. Then it will be mailed to my wife. So she'll be getting served next week sometime. I asked them to call me the minute they put it in the mail. I need to know when she will be getting it so I can prepare myself for the firestorm.

Heard W telling a friend of hers she's staying in the house. Yeah right. She may be allowed to remain there during the D process if that's what we both decide. But longterm she won't be. She can't afford to buy out my interest or even pay the remaining mortgage. I wish she could see that.


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## maxter

Riverside MFT said:


> A couple of questions:
> Do you regret that you married your wife? I know you don't regret having your children at all, but do regret getting married to your wife?
> What will you do if she eventually comes back? The lust and the passion of the affair could end anytime and she could come crawling back (though it sounds as if she is doing that already, but she still keeps in contact with the OM).
> Are you going to start into the dating scene? or is that the least of your worries?


Riverside-
What, are you doing a study on the effects of terminal infidelity on men? Just kidding

To be serious I'll attempt to answer your questions. Do I regret marrying my wife? There have been times throughout our trouble marriage that I had regrets. Early on, before she got on meds, when her temper was outrageous, I often thought "what the hell did I get myself into?" I wished we had lived together for some time before getting married. I think this would have revealed some of the issues and may have changed my mind. Or maybe not- love can be blind sometimes.

Now its harder to say that because of my wonderful girls. Thinking in that way "wish I'd never met/married her" sortof diminishes how important my kids are to me. Because what if somehow a genie heard me and gave me my wish- POOF! no wife, no kids. Where would I really be now? Yeah I could be in a different loving fullfilling relationship even with great kids. Or I could be dead from alcoholism fed by depression.

Uhg! I really don't know what I will do if she wants to come back. Right now I have to much hatred and anger toward her which trumps all the other feelings of love & companionship that still linger somewhere deep down inside me. If it happens 3 months or 6 months from now all I can say is she better have it together 100% for me to even look her way. I will not take her back unless her issues have been dealt with and she demstrates all the appropriate actions. Just like this last week, she talks, manipulates, pulls the sympathy card, threatens but NO positive actions that would signal to me she wants the marriage.

I have no desire to start dating. My heart & soul are too damaged right now. I do look around as I'm out and about and notice some really nice looking ladies:smthumbup: No dating scene for me for at least six months.


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## maxter

I just put my classic car up for sale. W finally agreed to sell it now that she needs money- go figure. It's on Ebay and on my car clubs website. I'm also putting it out at my parents house. They live on a very busy road that sees alot of daily work commutors plus tourists. Hope I get someone to bite on it. That would cover lawyer fees and erase our credit card debts.


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## Jellybeans

Glad to hear your tests came back clear. 

When she is served, be sure to be UNemotional with her. Tell her you won't get into a screaming match with her. That she made her choice, is still having an affair, and you want no part in a marriage that involves a third party. Keep this attitude. Kapiche.


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## Riverside MFT

twindad said:


> Riverside-
> What, are you doing a study on the effects of terminal infidelity on men? Just kidding
> 
> Just like this last week, she talks, manipulates, pulls the sympathy card, threatens but NO positive actions that would signal to me she wants the marriage.


If I did do a study on the effects of terminal infidelity, I would be able to get plenty of data from you  .

What I think is awesome about you is that you used to fall into your wife's trap when she would try to manipulate you, whether it was through sympathy, or however she tried to gain control of you. You now are standing your ground with her and not allowing her to do that to you. And you are standing your ground while also being respectful to her. Way to go! She definitely has some issues that she needs to work through, but that is up to her.


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## Jellybeans

Riverside-- what's "terminal infidelity?"


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## Riverside MFT

Jellybeans said:


> Riverside-- what's "terminal infidelity?"


It is my dissertation. I am doing it on the dyadic marital adjustment of terminal infidelity. 

J/k. Twindad brought it up as a joke, and I just went along with it.


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## Jellybeans

Oh. LOL.


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## Why Not Be Happy?

so, tell us about the car....


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## maxter

Why Not Be Happy? said:


> so, tell us about the car....


Why? Are you looking to get into classic muscle? I'm having a divorce fire sale going on right now

It's a 1971 Buick Skylark that I've been working on and restoring for 14 years. I've upgraded it to Gran Sport (GS) trim and performance levels. It's got a small block 350 and 3-speed auto that's been all souped up. It is really quick even with the highway gears still in it. I've got some performance racing gears on the shelf that I never got installed and a complete camshaft/lifters kit that would really wake up the ole girl. It's been my pride and joy for a long time, long before I met my W. I've put alot of my blood, sweat, and elbow grease into that car over the years (and $$ of course).

I hate to see it go but just like my W I have to accept that I must let them both go for a better future.


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## librarydragon

Twindad, given a couple of statements you've made about how your wife is involving your girls in the drama, you need to be very wary of Parental Alienation Syndrome on her part. She's going to tell your daughters half-truths and maybe even lies to try and become the favored parent...


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## RunningOnEmpty

Go to dadsdivorce.com, and read and follow the list.

You need to stay in your house until a judge signs a temporary order. According to the dads there, a verbal or written agreement, between you and your wife means nothing unless it is filed and judge signed.

You need to keep an mp3 recorder on you at all times. Your wife may call the cops, file a fake domestic violence case against you. You will get 5 minutes to pack, and off you go. You get slapped with a restraining order keeping you from your house and kids until the temp hearing. By that time, your wife will have established status quo, and you are stuck with EOW visitation.



twindad said:


> Yes, she could attempt to set the status quo by withholding access to my kids. My attorney said it would be best if we have an established agreement about custody between my W and I which I'm working on now. He said if we have that in place (verbal and/or written agreement between the two of us) and the she blocks me from access, then I immediately file a custody complaint and the courts take it up. I would never move out and then allow the kids to stay with her for weeks and weeks allowing her to create a status quo. I would take action immediately. Does that make sense to you? Or am I missing something?


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## Shaggy

Twin , your WW has done nothing but play you and lie to you. I know you know this, what I'm saying is she is going to be a complete nightmare in the divorce. You need an absolute shark on your side and you need to be very very strong because no mater what you say do or try she is a deeply selfish person who views herself as the victim who is entitled to everything. Do not play soft or expose your throat because she will go for the kill.

It's so very sad your daughters are having intact with someone with no values morals or conscience. It will hurt every relationship they will have with SOs if they learn the ways of your wife. 

You need to get out there soon and date. Show them what a good relationship with a person can be like because they will never learn it from her. Do it for them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

UPDATE-
As I was leaving for work this morning, wife starts talking to me about the house. She asks if I would consider refinancing our remaining mortgage (4yrs to go) as a 15yr to greatly reduce the cost. I asked her why. She says that way she could afford the payments. I told her she could finance it herself, that I don't necessarily want the house in the end. She says she won't qualify for a loan. She tells me that what she meant was we refinance together and then she stays in the house for 5yrs, after which she would get her own place. I told her no. I'm divorcing you and our marital property will be divided. I told her she's more than welcome to buy me out of the house and refinance the mortgage (of course she can't). 

So then I tell her I have a proposal to our separation dilema. I suggest we get a small, 1 bedroom, 1 bath apartment close by and we swap in and out of the house. The kids stay put and stable. They keep their own beds, pets, friends, toys, holidays, etc. And we get to share equal time with them (which is what I want) based on a rotating schedule. I tell her it's only applicable until the D is final because at that time the house would have to be dealt with by selling or one of us buying it.

She had a therapy session last night with the MC. She tells me she has made a huge mistake and realizes that now. She says she is going to fix things, fix us. I tell her even if should could do all the physical things necessary (NC, transparency, etc) that she has no clue how to repair what's broken inside of me. hell, I don't even know if that's possible.

Just got off the phone with her. She likes the apartment idea. she asks that we do a 1yr lease and she works on herself and tries to prove herself. She asks me not to file and she will agree to the apartment conditions. Well, I told her it's too late. I filed and the courthouse has entered it. She asks me to call them and try to retract it or put a hold on it. I ask her why. She makes up all these excuses about the stigma of D on the girls, and wanting time to improve her employment, wanting time to pay down our debts, and so on. I tell her I think its simply because of her embarrassment. She says that's part of it. She tells me she'll make a deal (LOL!) with me. If I don't file and we do the 1yr lease and nothing is better between us at that time, she will sign the D right away. I tell her I'm not interested in deals and that I gave her 3 1/2yrs to get her act together, now she wants another year. Are you freakin kidding me!? She's frantic, desperate right now. She's really going to be a handful after she gets served and the D is announced in the local paper.

God this sucks!!!!! She tells me if I really care about her I would accept this deal. I still love her and she's playing my emotions. Should I give her one more chance? My feeling is continue with the D process and she can take all the time she needs on the other side to fix herself and try and prove herself. We have a 90 day waiting period and then she can postpone by up to 2yrs. I think having the D on the table and in process is more of an incentive than me withdrawing it and just holding the threat of it over her.


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## Why Not Be Happy?

I think you are doing the right thing. You can always change your mind at any time during the process.


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## HurtinginTN

I think you are going the right direction. It is already filed. IF she is truly remorseful and agrees willingly to all of the necessary requirements of NC, etc., it could work out between you if you so chose. That is a lot of if's. Only time will tell if she is serious.

It's your choice to make. I've also given many chances. I know how you feel. You say you still love her. I still love my wife. They certainly know us well enough to pull on those heart strings. We all have a breaking point. We all have to figure out just where that point is for ourselves.


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## Riverside MFT

The paper's are already filed right? Is there still an argument? Tell her she has 90 days to show significant improvement in herself (one month for every year of the affair is a pretty good deal), and then you will _think_ about the marriage.


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## maxter

Thank you WNBH & HurtinginTN for your support. It's really tuff staying on track. She keeps trying her best to sway me and twist things. I can see it clearly most of the time, but once in awhile she tugs just the right emotional string and I waver. I cannot do that. I must stay the course now and keep on track.

Having the whole town find out about a D filing sucks, but they don't know why. Only her and I do. It's as if she thinks anyone knowing about a D filing automatically reveals her affair. I've been thinking about this lately. She feels embarrassed and ashamed about what she did. But I feel those emotions can be somewhat selfish in nature because the person is worrying about themselves and how others see them. Although it is a good starting point for someone to realize they've done wrong, sort of like an internal red flag.

At one point years ago, I too felt shame for how I mistreated my wife. But that shame gave me the motivation to seek out professional help so that I could learn about myself and make changes to become a better person. Today I don't feel shame anymore- I do feel lots of regret, remorse and guilt for my part in the disintigration of our marriage.


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## Shaggy

She seems more worried now about HER exposure than she ever did about hurting you with the affair. 

That's not remorse on her part. That is nothing but selfish self preservation. 

You are doing the right thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

Riverside MFT said:


> Tell her she has 90 days to show significant improvement in herself (one month for every year of the affair is a pretty good deal), and then you will _think_ about the marriage.



Here in TN, if we file the uncontested divorce packet, it takes 90 days before it goes before a judge. IF either party changed their mind at that point, it could be pulled back. It doesn't become final here until 30 days after the judge signs it. I don't know what would happen if someone fought it during that time frame.

That is probably good. Tell her she has 90 days to show some changes. At that point, you will see.


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## maxter

When she was telling me this morning that she wanted time to fix herself and she wants to keep us together, blah, blah- I asked her does she even know what I want or need for that to happen. She replied, "yes I do". I asked her how she knows. Does she read minds now? She hasn't asked me what it would take and I've seen no actions on her part so far. I even told her if she really felt this way, why hasn't she done anything over the last two weeks since the most recent exposure? She didn't have an answer. I mean come on now, if I was in her position I would be jumping through hoops to get my attention. I'd throw away my cell phone, give up all email addy's, provide all cell phone records, on and on. She's done nothing of the sort.

She keeps running her damn mouth, but doesn't act on anything or show any signs of doing anything to show me she understands the mountain of pain I've been through. I asked her over three weeks ago directly to provide me access to her cell phone records. And still nothing. So far I haven't gotten even a little token of effort from her. Just her trying to cover her @ss and control what I'm doing. This is sooooo exhausting!


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## aug

twindad said:


> When she was telling me this morning that she wanted time to fix herself and she wants to keep us together, blah, blah- I asked her does she even know what I want or need for that to happen. She replied, "yes I do". I asked her how she knows. Does she read minds now? She hasn't asked me what it would take and I've seen no actions on her part so far. I even told her if she really felt this way, why hasn't she done anything over the last two weeks since the most recent exposure? She didn't have an answer. I mean come on now, if I was in her position I would be jumping through hoops to get my attention. I'*d throw away my cell phone, give up all email addy's, provide all cell phone records, on and on. She's done nothing of the sort.*
> 
> She keeps running her damn mouth, but doesn't act on anything or show any signs of doing anything to show me she understands the mountain of pain I've been through. I asked her over three weeks ago directly to provide me access to her cell phone records. And still nothing. So far I haven't gotten even a little token of effort from her. Just her trying to cover her @ss and control what I'm doing. This is sooooo exhausting!



maybe she hasnt done the above because there are more inappropriate secrets she does not want you to know. And she does not know how you would handle it. Or, may make matters worst. just a thought...


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## maxter

I'm stunned! My W and I just had an email exchange about my classic car that I just put up for sale. I have a hot prospect that's very interested in it pending some additional pictures. I emailed to tell her we may have a buyer soon. She emails back that we'll get by somehow and she doesn't want me to sell it. She knows it's important to me. So I respond that I've done alot of soul searching over the past few years and I've realized I'm too selfish and possesive about objects like my car and the house and I've learned I need to let some things go (like her). She responds back she insists that I keep it and relinquishes all rights and claims to it! IN WRITING! Well isn't that very noble of her? In the end it doesn't change the fact we have debts to settle and need money for attorney's fees and maybe a shared apartment.

Hmmm, a thought just accured to me. Maybe this is some kind of test. If I immediately say "ok honey, i'll keep it. thank you" it proves that I'm still selfish. Or maybe she thinks it's some kind of piece offering from her to me which I'm sure she will bring up later when she wants something that I don't agree with. Then she'll say "hey I let you keep your car", I want this or that. Or maybe I'm overthinking the whole thing.


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## Riverside MFT

I think you tell her that if you do the following, you would consider getting back together:
- She ends contact with OM immediately, and says (in front of you) that they can never talk again.
- She gives you all access to cell phones, FB, emails, EVERYTHING.
- She talks openly and honestly with you on a daily basis. This means complete honesty, even if it would hurt you or make you upset.
- She gets into her own IC.

Those are just my thoughts. You might have more that you would like her to do. You will also need to work onimproving yourself (whether the marriage lasts or not). You will need to be a better man, a better father, and possibly a better husband.


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## Walt

You are over-thinking things. The car is still marital property, regardless of what she wrote. Sell it. Pay off your debts. Get your apartment.

She is flopping around like a fish out of water. Ignore her. Move forward with your plan. Don't let her panic influence you.

As for why she hasn't been transparent - have you asked her to be? (sorry, don't recall.)


Best wishes.


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## WhereAmI

If your W wants you back for the right reasons a divorce won't stop her. You can always remarry. If this isn't a manipulation to save face or allow her to position herself, she'll accept that you need to protect yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

Whether she is "testing" you or not is irrelevant. The fact is, she is STILL having an affair & has made NO effort to earn her way back to your heart/earn your trust/own what she's done.

Continue with the divorce.

Actions, baby! Words are CHEAP.


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## maxter

I'm having second thoughts about this sharing an apartment idea. 24 hours ago it seemed great. My parents even like it. it does give the kids alot of stability because they are staying put in the one place they know.

But I'm wondering if it will involve too much interaction between the W and I. I mean we'll be sharing a small apartment, one at a time of course and swapping in/out of the marital home on some kind of fairly equal schedule. But it feels like this arrangement will only prolong the divorce. If it works well, then why should she agree to settlement of our property and final D which will certainly put her in a bad spot financially. I mean it seems to make it too comfortable for her. On the flip side it is much more financially doable than supporting two separate households and will allow us to pay off debt and continue to pay down our mortgage.

There would be rules and boundaries surrounding this arrangement. No OM or OW in the house or apartment. No introduction to the kids in any manner. But what is the endgame? I want a divorce and to be able to get on with my life and this just feels like limbo. What do you all think?


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## Shaggy

I think you should just get the divorce done as quickly as possible and move on. 

You know you'll be paying for the apartment and she will be havIng the OM there. Look what she had already done at the hotel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

I don't think sharing an abode is a good idea. Its rewarding bad behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

Alot of tension in the house today. My one daughter is clinging to her mom because she and I got into it last night over her bad behavior. She was teasing and tormenting her sister and I had told her several times to knock it off but she kept doing it soon as I walked away. So I snuck back and caught her red handed and yelled at her to get upstairs, do her bedtime routine and go to her room. Well, I guess I scared her. She ran upstairs screaming for mommy. Had an emotional meltdown at bedtime and is wary of me today so far. I've asked her to talk with me about it and asked the W to encourage her to talk to me but she's not ready. I guess I'll just wait it out till she comes around.

The D papers were mailed Thursday and they arrived at our post office today but the W didn't make it over to the post office yet. She'll probably get them Monday.

I looked at two apartments today (for myself, not shared) and two houses. The apartments were nice but too expensive. The one house was OK, good size, decent condition but way to much yard work. More than I have now at my current house. The other house is very nice. 2 bedroom, 1 bath, full basement for storage. Small yard. And it's privately owned. A couple bought the house, totally renovated it with intent to sell and make some money, then the market crashed. So they are holding on to it and renting to select people (I'm on that list!). The price is within my budget range too. That's all for now.


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## Jellybeans

I hope the house comes through for you. Keep looking in the interi. Your daughter will better and come around to you in time. I didn't know you had filed already. It sucks but know you need to look out for yourself especially if she's been unwilling to end her affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

Hey JB-
No recent talk from the W about her 'fixing' things. She just texted the OM Friday telling him all about my apartment proposal to keep the kids in their house. He replied back "sorry about all this" or something to that effect. Must have pissed her off because she texted him back "your sorry is just a reaction".

Tonight at suppertime she started in on me again about her colonoscopy appt. this coming week. Wining about not having anyone to help her. Pleading with me to do it. Saying her health is at risk and that could hurt our girls if something happened to her. It hurt but I held my position that she's gotta work it out. I told her if her OM was so loving & caring I'm sure he would do it since her health is at risk. I told her what she's asking for is the type of support a loving husband provides and I'm no longer that person. She was stewing by then so I went and made dinner for the kids. Then made something for myself but of course it was enough for two people. Before I left to go see a movie for myself I told her supper was on the stove. Well tomorrow is another day. Hopefully a peaceful one.


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## Shaggy

She claims to want to fix the death blow she dealt to the marriage, yet she keeps contacting the OM. Have you confronted her on the pure hypocrisy of that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

Shaggy said:


> She claims to want to fix the death blow she dealt to the marriage, yet she keeps contacting the OM. Have you confronted her on the pure hypocrisy of that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. Not yet. But the next time she brings it up I probably will. Really no point because it's just her saying $hit to attempt to manipulate me when her actions tell the real truth.


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## aug

twindad said:


> Tonight at suppertime she started in on me again about her colonoscopy appt. this coming week. Wining about not having anyone to help her. Pleading with me to do it. Saying her health is at risk and that could hurt our girls if something happened to her. It hurt but I held my position that she's gotta work it out. I told her if her OM was so loving & caring I'm sure he would do it since her health is at risk. I told her what she's asking for is the type of support a loving husband provides and I'm no longer that person. She was stewing by then so I went and made dinner for the kids. ...


colonoscopy does not put her health at risk. The procedure itself is very simple. The preparation the night before requires multiple trips to the bathroom to clear out the bowel. She can just take a taxi or get a ride by the OM.


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## golfergirl

aug said:


> colonoscopy does not put her health at risk. The procedure itself is very simple. The preparation the night before requires multiple trips to the bathroom to clear out the bowel. She can just take a taxi or get a ride by the OM.


. 

I could find 10 people willing to drive me - she must treat everyone like crap to not be able to find a ride. It must pick her butt that she lost control of you - that's what that's all about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

We had a good Sunday together. Thank God! This morning my one daughter who was avoiding me just started talking like nothing happened between us. We did eventualy sit down and talk about the incident, exchange apologies and hugs. I have to credit my W, I asked for her help getting through to our daughter and she did help bring us together for a talk.

My other daughter is a daddy's girl. She likes going places and doing things with me. We went to the car parts store to get a few things I needed to prepare my muscle car for sale. So we had a couple hours together to ourselves. I enjoy doing things with her. We just click very well.

The guy interested in my car gave me a low-ball offer. I declined and counter-offered. My feeling is the deal is dead based on his questions and poor offer.

The W and I talked awhile about what's ahead of us. She's worried sick about her financial future and ability to support herself. It ain't gonna be easy for her. Her standard of living is definitely going to suffer. We still agree we want to keep the kids in our house as best we can. I told her I don't 'need' to have the house. I'm open to her buying me out, taking it over or selling it and splitting the profits. She seems to want to try and keep it. Unless she greatly improves her employment situation and gets her salary up in the mid to high 30's, she'll never be able to afford it.

For me, I think the shared apartment idea is off the table. Too much interaction with her and leaves me wondering what's going on in the place right I will continue looking for my own place more this week. So far the one house close by is still my #1 choice. The only thing holding me back from jumping on it is financial. I just made changes to my witholding and I want to see what the effect is on my take home pay.

The W told me today she's still upset I told my parents so much detail about our situation. I reminded her that I told them every terrible thing I had done as well and that my behavior played a major role in the failure of our marriage. She actually told me she feels shame and guilt about what she's done to our family and me. WOW!!! Haven't heard that before. I told her that as painful as those emotions are, it's good that she feels them. It means the FOG is lifting and she's getting in touch with her moral center again. I told her she can diminish those feelings by taking positive actions to change her life for the better. Those feelings and others are what kicked me in the @ss to get the help I needed. If she can pull herself up, that's good for her and the kids. But it doesn't really change anything for me. The years of emotional abuse from her affair coupled with the death blow of the weekend in a hotel suite with our girls ended it for me.


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## Sod

Good for you. It sounds like you are making the right call and if you are going to break, you need to break. Swopping houses for the sake of the kids is a nice idea but it will only keep you unsettled and cause you to consider the STBXW as neither will really be your place.


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## maxter

My W works in a local hospital doing intake admissions and lab scheduling. Well, my mom had to come in for blood work and it was a cold situation. W emailed me to say my mom was in and she saw her, then turned away and ignored her completely. I asked my W what she expected. She replies that my mom's cold shoulder tells her how my parents are going to react to her. I said maybe it would have been better for her if my mom came over and jumped all over her $hit in a public place. W just replied it doesn't matter, it's over now. I explained to my W that I asked my parents to treat her cordially and with respect (even though she doesn't deserve it) should they run into each other. No need for outbursts or shananigans between adults.

I did some internet research today about child support payments and temp alimony in my state. I ran the numbers and at first glance it looks like my wife could just get by staying in the house if I had to pay her child support & temp alimony. She'd have like $100 left over each month. Talk about squeeking by! I fair a little better after all expenses. I'm scheduling an appointment with my attorney to sit down and get more accurate numbers.

Would it be wrong for me to trade her financial support (paying alittle more than required by law) in exchange for the 50/50 custody I want? Your probably asking "why do that". Well, I would like to get a custody agreement between us outside of the court system. I really don't want to drag my kids through interviews and hearings if I can avoid it. If she agreed, and we do this just during the D process (3mos-2yrs) then the custody precedent is set and should it come to filing in court, I've got the upper hand since we've established status quo. The 'extra' payment would only be temporary and outside the court system and agreed upon by her and I. If she files for child support and/or alimony all bets are off and we do battle for the kids and minimum payout from me. That's what I'm trying to avoid- anything that will involve my girls and paying alot of lawyer fees.


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## golfergirl

twindad said:


> My W works in a local hospital doing intake admissions and lab scheduling. Well, my mom had to come in for blood work and it was a cold situation. W emailed me to say my mom was in and she saw her, then turned away and ignored her completely. I asked my W what she expected. She replies that my mom's cold shoulder tells her how my parents are going to react to her. I said maybe it would have been better for her if my mom came over and jumped all over her $hit in a public place. W just replied it doesn't matter, it's over now. I explained to my W that I asked my parents to treat her cordially and with respect (even though she doesn't deserve it) should they run into each other. No need for outbursts or shananigans between adults.
> 
> I did some internet research today about child support payments and temp alimony in my state. I ran the numbers and at first glance it looks like my wife could just get by staying in the house if I had to pay her child support & temp alimony. She'd have like $100 left over each month. Talk about squeeking by! I fair a little better after all expenses. I'm scheduling an appointment with my attorney to sit down and get more accurate numbers.
> 
> Would it be wrong for me to trade her financial support (paying alittle more than required by law) in exchange for the 50/50 custody I want? Your probably asking "why do that". Well, I would like to get a custody agreement between us outside of the court system. I really don't want to drag my kids through interviews and hearings if I can avoid it. If she agreed, and we do this just during the D process (3mos-2yrs) then the custody precedent is set and should it come to filing in court, I've got the upper hand since we've established status quo. The 'extra' payment would only be temporary and outside the court system and agreed upon by her and I. If she files for child support and/or alimony all bets are off and we do battle for the kids and minimum payout from me. That's what I'm trying to avoid- anything that will involve my girls and paying alot of lawyer fees.


I would talk to lawyer before trying to work any deals. While custody can become status quo so can support. Where I'm from (Canada) judges frown on any kind of finangling regards money vs. Custody. Rather than play nice, I'd tell her you're offering 50/50 custody for not dragging HER actions into the court. She doesn't take you for real.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sod

From my experience, child support is determined by the level of custody. Its calculated by the GROSS household income of both parents and then a table is used based on the kids age to determine how much each contribute to the cost. In my state, its roughly 27% of gross household income. If its 50/50, its pure division by how much you earn. If she or you has more time, then the costs slide with it

Start with custody first and figure the rest. Talk to a lawyer to understand your states requirments


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## maxter

I think I've got a pretty good handle on the child support and temp alimony payments by doing alot of reading and research online. I will setup an appointment with my attorney to get his take and to see how close my numbers are. With 50/50 custody it pretty much evens out the playing field. Even though I earn 75% of the total income, after paying out for child and alimony, I end up with 55% of the combined income and she's at 45%. When the temp alimony ends after the D is final then I end up with 65% of the total and 35% for her. She better have a much better paying job by then or she will sink fast.

I asked her for some financial info like gross pay, 401K contribution to help me figure all this stuff out (she doesn't get pay stubs) and she declined because I won't take her to the procedure this Friday. She told me if I want something then I better give her something. This is how it's going to be. I'll have to get court orders for every little thing because she just won't talk openly about what we need to do going forward.

I was talking to my dad about all this and he said he would take her to her appt. Wouldn't that screw with her head if I told her I got her a ride- and it's my dad? She would never accept due to embarrasment. Better yet, I tell her I'll do it, but then my dad shows up to pick her up!!!:rofl: Hey, at least I offered a real solution to her transportation problem.


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## golfergirl

twindad said:


> I think I've got a pretty good handle on the child support and temp alimony payments by doing alot of reading and research online. I will setup an appointment with my attorney to get his take and to see how close my numbers are. With 50/50 custody it pretty much evens out the playing field. Even though I earn 75% of the total income, after paying out for child and alimony, I end up with 55% of the combined income and she's at 45%. When the temp alimony ends after the D is final then I end up with 65% of the total and 35% for her. She better have a much better paying job by then or she will sink fast.
> 
> I asked her for some financial info like gross pay, 401K contribution to help me figure all this stuff out (she doesn't get pay stubs) and she declined because I won't take her to the procedure this Friday. She told me if I want something then I better give her something. This is how it's going to be. I'll have to get court orders for every little thing because she just won't talk openly about what we need to do going forward.
> 
> I was talking to my dad about all this and he said he would take her to her appt. Wouldn't that screw with her head if I told her I got her a ride- and it's my dad? She would never accept due to embarrasment. Better yet, I tell her I'll do it, but then my dad shows up to pick her up!!!:rofl: Hey, at least I offered a real solution to her transportation problem.


YOU don't need to find a solution to HER problem. I would let it stay where it sits - she can find a ride to her appointment. She's had weeks notice - anyone could find a ride, she chooses not to show herself she's still got you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karole

Your attorney will get all the information you need, financial or otherwise, during the discovery process. She will have to produce whatever he asks for.


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## maxter

karole said:


> Your attorney will get all the information you need, financial or otherwise, during the discovery process. She will have to produce whatever he asks for.


Yes you are correct and I understand that. I was just trying to get an early handle on our financial situation with my pending separation and moving out. I know it's going to be real close money wise, so I was trying to work out a budget on paper to see the outcome.


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## maxter

HOUSING UPDATE-
I went to look at a half house at lunch today (2br-1ba). It's shaped like two small ranchers stuck together at a 30 degree angle in the middle with a two car garage on each end. I had dismissed it because it was just over my budget limit by alittle. One of the realtors I'm working with asked me about it. When I told her the rent was on my high side she tells me I need to consider other factors. It has a well and sand mound so NO water/sewer bill. It has a modern Geothermal heat/air system that is 99% efficient. And all outside maintenance is by the owner. Also it's 1/2 mi from where my kids live and in the same school district.

When I saw the inside I knew this was the one. It's less than 10 years old with only one former tenant and everything is immaculate. Walls are nice, carpet looks new, ceramic tile in the kitchen and bath. Newer, modern appliances. And it's vacant- ready to move into. Now if I could only get the 50/50 custody situated with my W I could get the eff out of my current emotionally tormented situation.


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## golfergirl

twindad said:


> HOUSING UPDATE-
> I went to look at a half house at lunch today (2br-1ba). It's shaped like two small ranchers stuck together at a 30 degree angle in the middle with a two car garage on each end. I had dismissed it because it was just over my budget limit by alittle. One of the realtors I'm working with asked me about it. When I told her the rent was on my high side she tells me I need to consider other factors. It has a well and sand mound so NO water/sewer bill. It has a modern Geothermal heat/air system that is 99% efficient. And all outside maintenance is by the owner. Also it's 1/2 mi from where my kids live and in the same school district.
> 
> When I saw the inside I knew this was the one. It's less than 10 years old with only one former tenant and everything is immaculate. Walls are nice, carpet looks new, ceramic tile in the kitchen and bath. Newer, modern appliances. And it's vacant- ready to move into. Now if I could only get the 50/50 custody situated with my W I could get the eff out of my current emotionally tormented situation.


Good luck with moving forward. Your story really tugs at my heart!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

golfergirl said:


> Good luck with moving forward. Your story really tugs at my heart!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for your thoughts. W just emailed me. She wants to look at our budget tonight. I said sure thing, just bring a paystub or the info I requested and we can look at together. We shall see how cooperative she is.

Oh, get this. My mom had her colonoscopy today so she and my dad were in the hospital where my W works. Wife saw my dad and gave a wave of the hand 'hello'. He waved back and walked over to her station to say hi, how are you doing today. She replied doing the best she can. So the tension between my mom and her from yesterday was eased alittle by my dad approaching her and being polite.


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## maxter

W finally picked up her Divorce papers at the post office today. Didn't say anything about them to me though. She didn't bring the wage info I asked for so no budget talks tonight. 

I printed out two articles I found on the web about the advantages and benefits of joint custody. She read them and then asked what I had in mind. I told her 50/50 with some kind of shared schedule that equals out our time. She has no clue, hasn't done any research or even much thinking about how we can do this. I told her I was playing around with different schedules today and had an example to show her. It was a one week on, one week off type which splits up the kids time pretty equally.

Well because of her work hours, she doesn't get home till 6:30pm. So her week she gets the girls to school, then I get them after school for 2hrs before she gets home. Then on my week I adjust my work hours so I take them to school and have a sitter for 1 1/2hrs before I get home at 5:30pm. So since I get to see the girls each late afternoon during her week (because I'm getting them off school and watching them till she gets home) I wrote in an overnight for her during my week to balance things out.

Well, she saw that I would see them Mon-Fri during her week and she doesn't during my week (but gets an overnight) she flips out on me saying that won't work, she doesn't get to seem them on my week, it's too long without them and so on. Not true since she gets an overnight but to her that's not the same as me seeing them 2hrs each weekday. I told her I don't have to watch them, we can get a sitter, but by then her mind had closed off and she's just pissed off.

I told her it's just a draft and we can work out details but she wasn't in the mood to talk. She tells me it's alot to think about and she needs to see her attorney before deciding. I know what she will do. She'll say she wants Primary custody and ask if she can get it. The Attorney will tell her yes she can and that will be her position. In the meantime my #1 realty choice is on the open market and I could loose it. And my #2 choice will be on the market in two weeks. I'm going to have to just file for custody or risk loosing out on two nice housing opportunities. But doing that will open up a hornets nest with her. Life sucks sometimes!


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## Lostouthere

s tryed to call a few times and then sends open ended txt sometimes that I have to respond to but hey it is what it is.


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## golfergirl

twindad said:


> W finally picked up her Divorce papers at the post office today. Didn't say anything about them to me though. She didn't bring the wage info I asked for so no budget talks tonight.
> 
> I printed out two articles I found on the web about the advantages and benefits of joint custody. She read them and then asked what I had in mind. I told her 50/50 with some kind of shared schedule that equals out our time. She has no clue, hasn't done any research or even much thinking about how we can do this. I told her I was playing around with different schedules today and had an example to show her. It was a one week on, one week off type which splits up the kids time pretty equally.
> 
> Well because of her work hours, she doesn't get home till 6:30pm. So her week she gets the girls to school, then I get them after school for 2hrs before she gets home. Then on my week I adjust my work hours so I take them to school and have a sitter for 1 1/2hrs before I get home at 5:30pm. So since I get to see the girls each late afternoon during her week (because I'm getting them off school and watching them till she gets home) I wrote in an overnight for her during my week to balance things out.
> 
> Well, she saw that I would see them Mon-Fri during her week and she doesn't during my week (but gets an overnight) she flips out on me saying that won't work, she doesn't get to seem them on my week, it's too long without them and so on. Not true since she gets an overnight but to her that's not the same as me seeing them 2hrs each weekday. I told her I don't have to watch them, we can get a sitter, but by then her mind had closed off and she's just pissed off.
> 
> I told her it's just a draft and we can work out details but she wasn't in the mood to talk. She tells me it's alot to think about and she needs to see her attorney before deciding. I know what she will do. She'll say she wants Primary custody and ask if she can get it. The Attorney will tell her yes she can and that will be her position. In the meantime my #1 realty choice is on the open market and I could loose it. And my #2 choice will be on the market in two weeks. I'm going to have to just file for custody or risk loosing out on two nice housing opportunities. But doing that will open up a hornets nest with her. Life sucks sometimes!


 
Firstly, you should have got her to agree to 50/50. When she did, let it sit a few weeks, then point out to save money instead of hiring sitters until she gets home from work, you could adjust schedule to look after girls. If possible, compensate by having her look after girls in the mornings before school on your week. For someone who is used to being with kids every day, a week without them does hurt. How would you feel if her schedule worked out her seeing them every day and you not seeing them for a week? Off the top you'd feel ripped off.
You start slow then ease into the extra. Even if they started with a sitter for those few hours, then come up with 'money saving' solution of you taking those hours. What do they do now with you guys together? Where do they go?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

golfergirl said:


> What do they do now with you guys together? Where do they go?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, school just started today. But our plan was supposed to be (assuming we were married and together) she gets them up and to school and then I pick them up after school, play, start homework, start dinner till she gets home from work. This was the big plan for this year and both our work hours were conducive to this working out well. But with being separated, and with joint custody, it really screws with the schedule as I outlined in previous post.

BTW- last night in bed she tells me she got the D papers. She thought there would be more to them. WTH!? She also says to me she is scared about the future. She asks me "Do you know how much you've done for me over the years?" (No $hit Sherlock) I respond "Actually, yes I do realize how supportive I've been. That's what makes what you did even harder to understand. You threw away a pretty good life". She pauses and replies "Just like your alcohol addiction, I got caught up in an emotional addiction and I didn't know how break out of it". 

She again tells me how upset she is I told my parents. She says what if, down the road, we get back together. She says now she will always be the enemy. I reminded her that I spilled all my bad stuff too. She says it's not the same because I'm their son. True, I'll give her that one. She says we need this separation to figure ourselves out. I tell her I've figured out what I want and that is to be out of this marriage and move on with my life. And that's where we left it.


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## golfergirl

twindad said:


> Well, school just started today. But our plan was supposed to be (assuming we were married and together) she gets them up and to school and then I pick them up after school, play, start homework, start dinner till she gets home from work. This was the big plan for this year and both our work hours were conducive to this working out well. But with being separated, and with joint custody, it really screws with the schedule as I outlined in previous post.
> 
> BTW- last night in bed she tells me she got the D papers. She thought there would be more to them. WTH!? She also says to me she is scared about the future. She asks me "Do you know how much you've done for me over the years?" (No $hit Sherlock) I respond "Actually, yes I do realize how supportive I've been. That's what makes what you did even harder to understand. You threw away a pretty good life". She pauses and replies "Just like your alcohol addiction, I got caught up in an emotional addiction and I didn't know how break out of it".
> 
> She again tells me how upset she is I told my parents. She says what if, down the road, we get back together. She says now she will always be the enemy. I reminded her that I spilled all my bad stuff too. She says it's not the same because I'm their son. True, I'll give her that one. She says we need this separation to figure ourselves out. I tell her I've figured out what I want and that is to be out of this marriage and move on with my life. And that's where we left it.


Would you be agreeable to you dropping kids off in mornings on your way to work on her off week? She too could see kids every day. It's sad she still thinks she has a shot here isn't it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

W just found out I have my own bank accounts. She's fumming mad right now! Says I'm cutting her off. Says she wants the keys to our house now (yeah right). Says get my own PO Box I can't use 'our' old one. She says she wants keys to my place (the one I don't even have yet). On and on she ranted.

I changed my direct deposit to my new account, but during the changeover they issue a paper check. She found that in our mail and asked me why. So I told her I have my own accounts. That's when she went off.

I reassured her no one is getting cut off. I still have to support the household and our children which means for the time being I must still pay the bills. I told her calmly that she can have all the autonomy she wants as soon as she signs the D papers, assumes all responsibility for the house she will be living in and I'm moved out. Seems simple to me. I said until that happens, I still have access to our marital home and will continue to support my family. Then she tangents off to furnishings. She tells me "you know all the furniture we got while we were married so you can't just take some of it". Wanna bet. My great grandmother and grandmother willed to me a bedroom set and dining room table. Those are going with me. But the majority of the furniture will be staying with her except for these few items. I'm a nervous wreck at the moment. She got me all stirred up. Deep breaths, deep breaths.


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## Sod

Let her fly off the handle as the reality sets in. You need to protect yourself and your kids and plan for the future without her so you are absolutely doing the right thing. Keep calm and be honest with her and reinforce that you are not shirking your obligations and it might hit home. Trust me, mine is going through the same thing right now so I know how it feels


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## maxter

golfergirl said:


> Would you be agreeable to you dropping kids off in mornings on your way to work on her off week? She too could see kids every day. It's sad she still thinks she has a shot here isn't it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I would be agreable to doing that. The problem is with my std work schedule I get up at 6am and leave for work at 6:45am which is too early for the girls to start their day. They typically get up around 7:30am and are completely done, ready for school by 8:30am. And if I shifted my start time alittle so that I get them up at 7:30, drive them over to mom's house by 7:45 then I won't get to work until 8am (1 hr later than usual). So then I can't get them after school and need a sitter for 1hr. I don't know, I'll need to draw this up on a calender and give it more thought. Seems like alot of shifting the kids around though.

Yes, it's really a sad thing to hear her say things like that. The door to my heart was cracked open with Hope for several years. But then her stunt a few weekends ago involving our girls just crushed that Hope that was holding my heart open. As someone else posted, it was the death blow to our marriage. I'm afraid my heart is closed for good now.


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## maxter

Sod said:


> Let her fly off the handle as the reality sets in. You need to protect yourself and your kids and plan for the future without her so you are absolutely doing the right thing. Keep calm and be honest with her and reinforce that you are not shirking your obligations and it might hit home. Trust me, mine is going through the same thing right now so I know how it feels


I feel for you. It's very frustrating when this happens because all communication breaks down, sometimes for a few days. All the anger and resentment clouds her ability to think clearly and work with me instead of against me.


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## Jellybeans

twindad said:


> The door to my heart was cracked open with Hope for several years.


Hope is always the last to die.


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## Jellybeans

While this may be surprising to you, everything she is saying and doing is typical of a wayward. 

It's like a zombie possesses them:



twindad said:


> BTW- last night in bed she tells me she got the D papers. *She thought there would be more to them.* WTH!? She also says to me she is scared about the future. She asks me "*Do you know how much you've done for me over the years?" *


*

The reality of what divorce is has only begun to crack for her. Expect more of this insanity/these statements from her. 



twindad said:



(No $hit Sherlock) I respond "Actually, yes I do realize how supportive I've been. That's what makes what you did even harder to understand. You threw away a pretty good life".

Click to expand...

*


twindad said:


> She pauses and replies "Just like your alcohol addiction, I got caught up in an emotional addiction and I didn't know how break out of it"


Deflection. Blame-shifting. Lack of accountability.



twindad said:


> She again tells me how upset she is I told my parents.


Unwillingness to deal with the consequences/ashamed that the truth is out.



twindad said:


> 1. She says what if, down the road, we get back together.
> 2. She says now she will always be the enemy.


1. Fog speak, not accepting reality

2. Ashamed, reality of ugliness of affair starting to crack open for her.




twindad said:


> She says it's not the same because I'm their son. True, I'll give her that one. .


So very true!



twindad said:


> *She says we need this separation to figure ourselves out*. I tell her I've figured out what I want and that is to be out of this marriage and move on with my life. And that's where we left it.


Heh. Good one from you. And again, she doesnt' GET it. She thinks she can wave a magic want and undo everything and you'll be fine and the separation will end and the affair will just go away (though she's still having it) and you'll forgive her and everything is rainbows and sunshines. Fog talk/lack of accountability. Distorting reality.



twindad said:


> W just found out I have my own bank accounts. *She's fumming mad right now*! Says I'm cutting her off. .


Reality starting to creep in, again. Divorce not looking so pretty now. Reality that you will have your own life/money/bank account/po box/living space without her is pissing her off. Who knew you'd actually move on and...propser at life...and not fold ove rand die without her?! Crazy, innit?



twindad said:


> Says she wants the keys to our house now (yeah right). Says get my own PO Box I can't use 'our' old one. She says she wants keys to my place (the one I don't even have yet). On and on she ranted.


Hehehe. I say get your own PO box. let her keeps the one that's open. Be unemotional. you don't have to give her new keys to your new place. Make that clear to her. Tell her "We are divorcing. You will have no rights to my keys or new property or PO Box...I am getting my own mailbox. That is what a divorce is. Total separation of lives."



twindad said:


> I changed my direct deposit to my new account, but during the changeover they issue a paper check. She found that in our mail and asked me why. So I told her I have my own accounts. That's when she went off..


Let her go off. Just look at her and walk off. You don't owe her any explanation outside of legalities re: Divorce and co-parenting. You can tell her that. 



twindad said:


> Then she tangents off to furnishings. She tells me "you know all the furniture we got while we were married so you can't just take some of it". Wanna bet. My great grandmother and grandmother willed to me a bedroom set and dining room table. Those are going with me. But the majority of the furniture will be staying with her except for these few items. I'm a nervous wreck at the moment. She got me all stirred up. Deep breaths, deep breaths.


Calm down. Try to breathe. Expect more of this from her to come. I would definitely stipulate those are your family heirlooms in the D. Before she tries to take them. And she seems the type who will try/will. Are you moving out first? You could take them with you then. Before it's all set in writing. I did that. 

Look at her crumble. It's fascinating/sad/funny at the same time. 

And she is still having her affair... amazing.


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## maxter

Wow, Jellybeans. You nailed it! You've got this all figured out. Still nice to hear someone confirm my own feelings and observations. Thanks much


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## Jellybeans

Yeah, you could say I've got my doctorate in Divorce Psychology. LOL.

Oh and a little tip: be UNemotional in dealing with her. Not only is it goign to piss her off greatly that you are so calm but it will be HEALTHY for you. If you want to se eher completely lose her sh!t, e totally unemotional and only discuss important issues w/o involving your emotions. It will be funny to watch and also a case study, if you will: Waywards HATE to see the left behind spouse (LBS) keepng it together and are completely thrown for a loop when the LBS doesn't fold over. 

When she rants, calmly tell her "I am not going to discuss this with you if you are going to speak to me in that tone/yell/go off" and walk away.

She will go nuts! 

She is realizing you are a man who respects himself enough not to deal with her antics.

GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!! Standing ovation! :smthumbup:


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## maxter

W calls me at work this morning. I'm on another call, see her call come in but can't get to it. She then calls my cell phone and asks "Where are you? Are you at work?". To which I tell her yes I'm at work, I was on another call.

Then she asks me "did you take my cell phone? I can't find it". To which I reply calmly, "No, I did not take your phone. In fact I haven't even seen it around". I tell her I have no reason to take it, it's locked all the time anyway and I don't really care what she's doing on it now that I filed for D. She replies that I did take her cell once before. I correct her saying I took her 'secret' cell, not her regular phone, and that was over two years ago. So I tell her to look around, check all her hiding places. She tells me she'll keep looking. Wonder if I'll get an apology when she finds it. I never touched the darn thing.


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## Why Not Be Happy?

sounds like she is coming "un-glued".


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## morituri

twindad said:


> Wonder if I'll get an apology when she finds it.


Anything's possible, especially with a foggy stbxw. Just don't hold your breath waiting for it.


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## bluebeauty

Craggy456 said:


> There is NO mercy when the b*tch switch is flipped :rofl:


:iagree:


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## maxter

W found her cell phone. I saw it plugged into the wall charger last night. She didn't say one word to me about it. Not that she found it or any apology for accusing me of taking it. Pretty much what I expected.

I had a IC session last night. It had been almost 3 weeks since I last saw him. I filled him in on all the drama with the hotel suite/OM/my kids and me filing for D. He was absolutely stunned and horrified at what she did. Last time we had talked it was right after our first restart of MC and there was some hope at that time. He's well aware of her antics and behaviors over the years since I've been seeing him. But this one took the cake! He fully supports my decision to D and get away from this crazy woman. Yep, that's what he called her- CRAZY.

We both agree she has some serious mental and emotional issues going on that need to be dealt with in therapy. The poor woman needs help, but she can't see any of this from within herself. It makes me sad because I still love her but I cannot continue with her in a toxic relationship. Sometimes I think about all the emotional trauma she's caused me and the damage it's done. I feel scarred inside. What effect will this have on my next relationship? Will I be able to trust another woman with my heart and my love? Well, that's not something I need to worry about short term. Right now I need to stay focused on my girls and separation.


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## HurtinginTN

twindad said:


> Then she asks me "did you take my cell phone? I can't find it". To which I reply calmly, "No, I did not take your phone. In fact I haven't even seen it around". I tell her I have no reason to take it, it's locked all the time anyway and I don't really care what she's doing on it now that I filed for D. She replies that I did take her cell once before. I correct her saying I took her 'secret' cell, not her regular phone, and that was over two years ago. So I tell her to look around, check all her hiding places. She tells me she'll keep looking. Wonder if I'll get an apology when she finds it. I never touched the darn thing.


lol. I had this exact same conversation a few weeks ago. I told her I've never even seen this new secret phone of hers. I also told her to check all her hiding places. She finally found it. I highly suspect, but she still denies it, that my 9 year old took it and hid it. She told me she knows where her mommy hides her phone one time. So, either my daughter took it and hid it or my wife just forgot which hiding spot she put it in that time.


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## maxter

I'm not doing so well today emotionally. My 12th wedding anniversary is tomorrow and I'm really hurting inside for the loss of my marriage and the coming destruction of my family. She asked me today what my 'plans' were. I told her I have no plans, no place to go, can't get a place until we reach some kind of agreement on a parenting plan. Then she says "well you know what I want". Which pissed me right off. I told her she doesn't deserve an ounce of what she wants after what she's done. She replied "There you go again getting upset. We won't be able to work anything out with you acting like that." I had to get up and leave the room before I did something I would regret.

She took one of our daughters and went 2hrs north to visit her mom overnight. My other daughter stayed with me and she invited her best friend over for a sleepover. The two friends are having a great time. We went out to Friendly's for supper and to a real nice local playground. Right now they are playing the wii till bedtime.

This afternoon, after the W and daughter had left, I went into our bedroom to get the phone and saw a large lump under the bed covers. When I pulled back the comforter, there were four boxes of taffy, chocolates, fudge and macaroons with a note. The note read "These were supposed to be a gift. Hope you enjoy them." WTF?! During our family vacation in July we ran out of time to get taffy while we were at the beach and I was dissappointed we didn't buy any. She knows I love salt water taffy. But come on! What the hell am I supposed to do? Dive in face first and pig out on all this candy? I just piled it up on her nightstand for when she comes home from her moms. There's no way I can eat any of that stuff after what's happened.


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## golfergirl

twindad said:


> I'm not doing so well today emotionally. My 12th wedding anniversary is tomorrow and I'm really hurting inside for the loss of my marriage and the coming destruction of my family. She asked me today what my 'plans' were. I told her I have no plans, no place to go, can't get a place until we reach some kind of agreement on a parenting plan. Then she says "well you know what I want". Which pissed me right off. I told her she doesn't deserve an ounce of what she wants after what she's done. She replied "There you go again getting upset. We won't be able to work anything out with you acting like that." I had to get up and leave the room before I did something I would regret.
> 
> She took one of our daughters and went 2hrs north to visit her mom overnight. My other daughter stayed with me and she invited her best friend over for a sleepover. The two friends are having a great time. We went out to Friendly's for supper and to a real nice local playground. Right now they are playing the wii till bedtime.
> 
> This afternoon, after the W and daughter had left, I went into our bedroom to get the phone and saw a large lump under the bed covers. When I pulled back the comforter, there were four boxes of taffy, chocolates, fudge and macaroons with a note. The note read "These were supposed to be a gift. Hope you enjoy them." WTF?! During our family vacation in July we ran out of time to get taffy while we were at the beach and I was dissappointed we didn't buy any. She knows I love salt water taffy. But come on! What the hell am I supposed to do? Dive in face first and pig out on all this candy? I just piled it up on her nightstand for when she comes home from her moms. There's no way I can eat any of that stuff after what's happened.


'thanks for the candy, it makes up for ripping my heart out and spitting on it' 
How will you ever work this misunderstanding out with you being sooooooo unreasonable.
I'm angry for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## muppetsinspace

She sounds poisonous, dude. There is a real problem inside her brain right now.

You need to get some advice from some other lawyers I think. Yeah, this sort of thing always favors the female, but she's got some real issues, and I'm wondering if you can't have her examined for some form of personality disorder. I don't know anything about family court. It was just a thought.


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## maxter

UPDATE-
W and daughter came home from her mom's late Sunday (our 12th anniversary). We didn't talk at all that night. Then yesterday was Labor Day holiday and we were both off work at home with the girls. We only said a few words, just enough to talk about supper plans and some of the girls schedule this week. She did alot of cleaning, doing things she hasn't done in two years like pulling out the frig and stove, moving the dining room furniture to clean behind, and lots of laundry. We avoided each other most of the day.

Our daughters wanted to have a family game night, so they picked out a few wii games and the four of us played together. They had fun but it was torture for me. My heart just wasn't into it knowing that this is all probably going to end this month. It was bittersweet.

I have an appointment with my attorney this afternoon to go over child support, temp alimony, and some other issues. I've been running financial numbers till I'm blue in the face. She's given it very little thought. I guess since I filed for D, she thinks I should work out all the details??? It would be much better for us all if she would talk sensibly with me about the money and custody issues. Otherwise I'll have to just file with the court system and then let her defend her position if she desires to do so.

What really kills me is she is so irrational, illogical, and overly emotional in her thinking that I can't get through to her on very important issues. For example, she doesn't understand that even IF she got the max allowed by law for child support and alimony, she won't have enough income to sustain the household. In two or three months she'll start going under and not be able to make the mortgage or other bills. That really bothers me because if she fails, we could loose our house. So then I either let it happen, let her fall hard (at expense of our kids) or I once again prop her up to keep the house going, keep our kids in their house and not loose our shirts from a forced sale of the house. She's so fricken unreasonable and she knows she has some limited control over me by doing what she does.

The best scenario would be for me to stay in the house, her to get her own place, and we share the kids 50/50. But in her mind that situation lets me 'win' or 'beat' her in some way and she refuses to allow that. So we are deadlocked at the moment.


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## Sod

Check your options with your attorney. No court will allow someone to sign up for something that is unreasonable or potentially damaging to the kids. If she doesnt participate in deciding this stuff, its not your fault. Its in everyones best interest to resolve this before going to a judge as it will cost a ton of money and the court just follows a non-emotional guide to splitting assets etc. Maybe you filing will wake her up to her reality but I would encourage her to deal with it now and go to mediation or you are left with no other option


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## golfergirl

twindad said:


> UPDATE-
> W and daughter came home from her mom's late Sunday (our 12th anniversary). We didn't talk at all that night. Then yesterday was Labor Day holiday and we were both off work at home with the girls. We only said a few words, just enough to talk about supper plans and some of the girls schedule this week. She did alot of cleaning, doing things she hasn't done in two years like pulling out the frig and stove, moving the dining room furniture to clean behind, and lots of laundry. We avoided each other most of the day.
> 
> Our daughters wanted to have a family game night, so they picked out a few wii games and the four of us played together. They had fun but it was torture for me. My heart just wasn't into it knowing that this is all probably going to end this month. It was bittersweet.
> 
> I have an appointment with my attorney this afternoon to go over child support, temp alimony, and some other issues. I've been running financial numbers till I'm blue in the face. She's given it very little thought. I guess since I filed for D, she thinks I should work out all the details??? It would be much better for us all if she would talk sensibly with me about the money and custody issues. Otherwise I'll have to just file with the court system and then let her defend her position if she desires to do so.
> 
> What really kills me is she is so irrational, illogical, and overly emotional in her thinking that I can't get through to her on very important issues. For example, she doesn't understand that even IF she got the max allowed by law for child support and alimony, she won't have enough income to sustain the household. In two or three months she'll start going under and not be able to make the mortgage or other bills. That really bothers me because if she fails, we could loose our house. So then I either let it happen, let her fall hard (at expense of our kids) or I once again prop her up to keep the house going, keep our kids in their house and not loose our shirts from a forced sale of the house. She's so fricken unreasonable and she knows she has some limited control over me by doing what she does.
> 
> The best scenario would be for me to stay in the house, her to get her own place, and we share the kids 50/50. But in her mind that situation lets me 'win' or 'beat' her in some way and she refuses to allow that. So we are deadlocked at the moment.


Maybe the courts will see that option and award it regardless of her happy dreams.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Riverside MFT

Remind me, Twindad, have you talked to daughters about this upcoming divorce yet?


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## maxter

Riverside MFT said:


> Remind me, Twindad, have you talked to daughters about this upcoming divorce yet?


No we have not spoken to them yet. I've been holding off on that conversation until W and I could agree on custody situation and my living arrangements. Until I have a place to go and we agree on the girls, I see no point in bringing it up just to let it hang over them since I'm still stuck in the house for now. 

W and I haven't been able to talk more than 5-10 minutes on anything regarding the D and it's outcome. She goes off quite easily and isn't open to logical thinking about the whole situation. The only thing in her mind is the kids should stay with her and they should stay in the marital home. And I get $hit! I loose equal access to my children, the house I designed and built before we met, my classic car I bought before we met, half my retirement account and so on. I am having an extremely difficult time rationalizing all this and it's eating me up inside. She had the affair, betrayed her husband and children, and comes out pretty good in the end. It's just not right, dammit.

It should be the other way around IMO. I'm in the house, with the kids and she gets her own place. But there is no means of recourse to make this happen. I filed a no-fault divorce because all the evidence I have about the affair isn't admissible in court. I want the D and she is hellbound to delay it to the very end for her own advantage (up to 2yrs). So once again I'm in limbo land for a long period of time just like the 3 1/2 years of her affair, but this time I'll be looking in from the outside. Now I know how some normally sane people can go postal. How much is a person supposed to take?


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## golfergirl

twindad said:


> No we have not spoken to them yet. I've been holding off on that conversation until W and I could agree on custody situation and my living arrangements. Until I have a place to go and we agree on the girls, I see no point in bringing it up just to let it hang over them since I'm still stuck in the house for now.
> 
> W and I haven't been able to talk more than 5-10 minutes on anything regarding the D and it's outcome. She goes off quite easily and isn't open to logical thinking about the whole situation. The only thing in her mind is the kids should stay with her and they should stay in the marital home. And I get $hit! I loose equal access to my children, the house I designed and built before we met, my classic car I bought before we met, half my retirement account and so on. I am having an extremely difficult time rationalizing all this and it's eating me up inside. She had the affair, betrayed her husband and children, and comes out pretty good in the end. It's just not right, dammit.
> 
> It should be the other way around IMO. I'm in the house, with the kids and she gets her own place. But there is no means of recourse to make this happen. I filed a no-fault divorce because all the evidence I have about the affair isn't admissible in court. I want the D and she is hellbound to delay it to the very end for her own advantage (up to 2yrs). So once again I'm in limbo land for a long period of time just like the 3 1/2 years of her affair, but this time I'll be looking in from the outside. Now I know how some normally sane people can go postal. How much is a person supposed to take?


Are you in an 'at fault' state? If so find admissible evidence
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Riverside MFT

twindad said:


> No we have not spoken to them yet. I've been holding off on that conversation until W and I could agree on custody situation and my living arrangements. Until I have a place to go and we agree on the girls, I see no point in bringing it up just to let it hang over them since I'm still stuck in the house for now.
> 
> W and I haven't been able to talk more than 5-10 minutes on anything regarding the D and it's outcome. She goes off quite easily and isn't open to logical thinking about the whole situation. The only thing in her mind is the kids should stay with her and they should stay in the marital home. And I get $hit! I loose equal access to my children, the house I designed and built before we met, my classic car I bought before we met, half my retirement account and so on. I am having an extremely difficult time rationalizing all this and it's eating me up inside. She had the affair, betrayed her husband and children, and comes out pretty good in the end. It's just not right, dammit.
> 
> It should be the other way around IMO. I'm in the house, with the kids and she gets her own place. But there is no means of recourse to make this happen. I filed a no-fault divorce because all the evidence I have about the affair isn't admissible in court. I want the D and she is hellbound to delay it to the very end for her own advantage (up to 2yrs). So once again I'm in limbo land for a long period of time just like the 3 1/2 years of her affair, but this time I'll be looking in from the outside. Now I know how some normally sane people can go postal. How much is a person supposed to take?


Okay.
She does/says things in order to get a reaction out of you, and when you don't respond, she intensifies her response. Hang in there. One day at a time. We are all pulling for you!


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## maxter

UPDATE-
I had a follow up meeting with my attorney yesterday. He basically confirmed the child support & temp alimony numbers I had worked up. There would be some fine tuning by the court but I'm within a few dollars. Close enough to realize I'm screwed! Oh well, guess that's my punishment for getting married to a psycho-cheater. He confirmed that I'm stuck living with her until either we agree on a custody arrangement or I file for custody. If I file, she will get served custody papers. First there will be a conference with me, the W, and a family court judge to see where we stand and try to reach an agreement. If we can't agree by the end of that meeting, then a hearing is scheduled which would involve counsel and an interview of our girls by the judge followed by a court session (without the kids) to determine custody. Neither one of us wants to put our kids through this, but again we are at an impasse right now. My attorney keeps telling me to work it out. How can I do that when my W doesn't think logically or practically about things? All her thinking is emotion based.

I haven't been talking to the W over the past few days except for short sentences about the kids or their schedule. Last night I texted her asking for us to talk again about custody and finances. She didn't respond to the text. But when she got home she says to me "so you don't talk to me for days and now you expect me to just strike up a conversation?". To which I responded my conversations are strictly limited to our girls and finances. I don't want to talk about how her day at work was, about the weather or anything else. 

So we start discussing custody. She points out why her solution is best, why it's in the best interest of our kids. So I asked her if she had the best interest of our girls in mind while she was having a long term affair or while she was bangin the OM in the same hotel suite with our kids. You know what response that got. She immediately came down on me saying this is always my response, to ridicule, put her down, start a fight, etc. I responded that I'm only speaking the truth. I'm not yelling or name calling. I'm calmly pointing out that her statements are hypocritical. I tell her that her words don't match her actions- ie. hypocrit.

Next we discuss finances. She wants us to refinance our mortgage and HELOC loan to spread it out over 15+ years and lower the monthly payments (to her advantage when she takes over the house). I told her that's not possible because there is a pending D claim filed. That infuriates her even more. She tells me I planned this, that I intentionally screwed her over. Yeah right! That was my evil plan all along. I also explained to her that our date of 'separation' as defined by law was the day she signed for the D papers (Aug 30th). And that any debt incurred by her after that date is her's alone. Now she's really fuming that I won't be responsible for her spending anymore. She asks some questions why, how and I try to explain the statutes to her.

Well, all this conversation and loud speaking drew the attention of our daughters who were downstairs in the family room. They snuck up the stairs and listened in for a few minutes. They heard some of our talk, heard us mentioning divorce, separation, daddy moving out and such. Daughter2 throws open the door with daughter1 following in tears. She starts saying don't get divorced, daddy don't move out. We must remain together in this house, not apart. She says if you get D, you will find other people to love and she doesn't want a step parent. She says if I move out she and her sister won't have a dad anymore. And on and on she goes for several minutes.

W and I are caught off guard but recover quickly realizing they still think we are only talking about D and not in the process of it. So we ask them some questions about how they feel. W asks them what if daddy moves out. What if he's just down the street, 2 minutes away. you can still see mommy or daddy every day. Both girls stand their ground saying that's not good enough. They want both of us, two parents in the same house with them. They don't want other people in their lives- no step parents or boyfriends/girlfriends. Daughter1 explains that a family is supposed to be whole, not split apart. By now I'm starting to fall apart. My heart is breaking apart in my chest, W is crying, girls are crying. We share some hugs and W tells them we are just talking and everything will be alright. We will still love them with all our hearts. Daughter2 turns to daughter1 and says "come on, lets go finish our project so mom & dad can talk". And they head back downstairs.

I'm at the point I can hardly breath, my chest is so tight. I have to leave for awhile, get away. I grab my keys, tell my girls I'm going to get the mail and will be back soon. Soon as I get out of the driveway I completely loose it. I'm balling my eyes out, screaming at my W, pounding the steering wheel. I pull over in a parking lot because I cannot drive in this state. I cry for a good fifteen minutes and then it stops and I just went numb. I sat there for an hour waiting for some kind of feeling to return, some spark of motivation to move, drive, do anything. Finally, I started the car and drove back home as there was nothing else left to do.

The girls heard the garage door open and were waiting for me inside with their project. It was a picture they created on the computer of two people getting married with flowers all around them. They found an old picture frame and framed it. They told me the two people were mom & dad getting married and living happily ever after. UHHHHHHHG! I thanked them for the wonderful gift and we went upstairs to get ready for bed. W said nothing to me at bedtime or this morning. I have nothing to say to her. We're deadlocked on custody. I see no alternative except for me to file and run this through the courts. I just cannot get myself to accept 2nd place, take a backseat when it comes to my kids. I'm an extremely capable, fully involved dad and I want my equal time with them.

Sorry for the novel, it just really helps to get this all out and talk about it. I only have my parents and therepist (every 2wks) as a sounding board. So this forum gives me another outlet for my pain.


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## Shaggy

You should have video taped the girls crying and pleading for their family. 

You should then force your wife to watch it every morning and every night for the rest of her life. 

It is so unfair that she has the continuing affair and then let's it look to the girls like it is you that is leaving. 

I don't know how she lives with herself
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lostouthere

Man twin sorry to here that. Yeah if she is not willing to compromise I would take it through the courts and see what happens.


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## COGypsy

I'm still not understanding why you're just rolling over and giving her the house and kids basically? 

Even (almost!) 25 years ago, my father got custody of my sister and I and kept the house. That was even in Texas! And as far as I know to this day, my mother just had to "find herself", there wasn't anyone else involved.

If it could happen then and there, I'm sure it's not out of the question in this day and age.


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## aug

I dont understand the part about splitting the house in half either.

The house was your asset before the marriage. Shouldn't the split be on the equity built up during the marriage?

For example, the value of the house just before marriage was $100K. It is now worth $250K. The diff is $150K. The split is $75K/$75K?


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## HurtinginTN

Twindad, I'm sorry for your horrible night. I know exactly how you feel. My kids eavesdropped on my conversation with my brother last weekend and we had one of those long crying sessions. I also know how you feel on the impasse with your wife. We are at that point as well on one main issue. Like you, I don't want to drag my children through the ugly court process, but it looks like I may have to.

On the custody issue, I wish I had advice. I can only offer you empathy on that as I'm right there with you.

On the kids, I do recommend the book in my signature. It is full of things that help. One story in particular came to mind when I was reading your last post. I used it with my kids and it helped them to understand it wasn't their fault. That is a big thing. The kids tend to believe it is their fault.

We have a dog, so I used that as a real example. If you don't, you can pretend you have a pet. I told my son that it was my turn to feed the dog, but I didn't want to. I was going to ask him to do it and he needed to refuse. Then, we were to argue a few minutes about who needs to feed the dog. We went through that process. Then, I stopped it. I said, "Is it the dog's fault we are fighting? Did the dog do anything wrong to cause us to fight? Could the dog have done anything differently to prevent this fight?" Of course, all the answers were no. You may try that to help explain to your kids that whatever is going on between you and your wife, it isn't the kids' fault.


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## Riverside MFT

Keep the updates coming twindad. There are many that are following your story.
Have you and the W considered mediation?


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## Riverside MFT

Twindad,
I just read your very first post again and am actually impressed with how far you have come with all this. Here is the thread for those that want to read it: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...about-loose-my-mind-trapped-cant-get-out.html.

Have you read it lately? If not you should. When this first came out, you were an emotional wreck (no offense). Your anxiety was through the roof and your emotions were all over the place. You had no clue as to which way you should turn in order to get better. That was May. We are now in September. Yes, you still have your moments (like the day you talked with your girls and they both wanted you and W to stay together), but those breakdown moments last for minutes now instead of hours or days. You have a plan and are sticking to that plan. You are determined to move forward and make the situation as least difficult for your daughters as possible. Keep it up. There are still going to be hard times ahead of you, but you have become stronger and are able to face those difficulties head on.

(Oh and BTW, no going back to alcohol as a means of coping, right? You are better than that  )


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## maxter

Riverside MFT said:


> (Oh and BTW, no going back to alcohol as a means of coping, right? You are better than that  )


No, not drinking. Although I have days I wish I could. I can't ever do that again. It's too destructive and addictive for me. It would numb the pain but in the end resolves nothing. Action, planning, and keep moving forward are what I need to do.


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## maxter

aug said:


> I dont understand the part about splitting the house in half either.
> 
> The house was your asset before the marriage. Shouldn't the split be on the equity built up during the marriage?
> 
> For example, the value of the house just before marriage was $100K. It is now worth $250K. The diff is $150K. The split is $75K/$75K?


Here's the deal. I built the house before we met. It was in my name only until we got married. Shortly after, I retitled the property in both our names, under some pressure from her, mainly as a sign of committment to the marriage and in the spirit of sharing everything with my beloved (sic) spouse. So essentially it was gifted by me to her. So now it's marital property. Same deal with my classic car. Many years ago I retitled it in both our names. 

This was always a sticking point for her. I didn't change the house title until 6mos after we married. To me it wasn't a big deal, we were just busy and it was a low priority to me. Not for her though! She *****ed about my delay in making the title change. She often said I wasn't sure I wanted the marriage, maybe I was going to leave someday, etc. She has abandonment issues dating back to her childhood. Her dad was very verbally and emotionally abusive with some physical altercations. Her mom never stood up to her dad, never defended her against him. She felt betrayed and abandoned by her mom because of that.

Your example only works (at least in my state) if I had never retitled it in both our names. Then she would only be entitled to half the change in value.


----------



## aug

Ask your lawyer if constructive or resulting trust can be applied to the house or car. Leave the word/concept of "gift" out of the equation? The titles were transferred based on certain expectations (and none of these expectations included adultery).


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## Zzyzx

I get this. Twindad gifted his separate property to the community.

However, all may not be lost. In some states, spouses are allowed to account for the separate property contribution to the community. In my case, I put in a lot more money than my ex to the house that we bought together. My state allowed me to document my contribution to the down payment along with hers and to characterize these contributions as our respective separate property even though they had been conmingled to buy the house.

Ask your attorney about this.


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## aug

twindad said:


> This was always a sticking point for her. I didn't change the house title until 6mos after we married. To me it wasn't a big deal, we were just busy and it was a low priority to me. Not for her though! She *****ed about my delay in making the title change. She often said I wasn't sure I wanted the marriage, maybe I was going to leave someday, etc. She has abandonment issues dating back to her childhood. Her dad was very verbally and emotionally abusive with some physical altercations. Her mom never stood up to her dad, never defended her against him. She felt betrayed and abandoned by her mom because of that.


I would think your intention for proceeding with the joint title was to show you were committed to the marriage. She asked for the commitment and yet did not keep her part of the agreement. That should invalidate the commitment (the transfer)?

Maybe claim "bad faith" on her part and see if the Judge will roll back the transfer (but she keeps 1/2 equity built during marriage)?


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## Shaggy

Twindad please make this as painful for her as possible. Make her spend 2 dollars fir each one she gets please make her suffer for the awful selfish things she has done
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

aug said:


> I would think your intention for proceeding with the joint title was to show you were committed to the marriage. She asked for the commitment and yet did not keep her part of the agreement. That should invalidate the commitment (the transfer)?
> 
> Maybe claim "bad faith" on her part and see if the Judge will roll back the transfer (but she keeps 1/2 equity built during marriage)?


Hmm. Food for thought there aug. I like your way of thinking. I will certainly ask my attorney about this. Maybe there is case law in my state that would support her violation of trust (the affair) as breaking the contract of marriage or something to that effect. Thanks much!

She was calling our TV/internet/phone provider today trying to figure out how to reduce the package cost by $50 without giving anything up. I had to chuckle. The small amount of money won't keep her afloat. And you can't really reduce the fixed costs of garbage collection, water/sewer, gas, even electric to some extent. Luxuries like satellite TV and her new fancy smart phone will have to go. She's terrible at budgeting and tracking expenditures. When she goes on her own, restricted income plus support, she won't last long. She bleeds money in debit withdrawels, eating out, movies, and misc. stuff.


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## maxter

We have lots of flooding in my state due to the heavy rains. All the schools in our county and surrounding are closed- except for our kids school. Duh! They have a two hour delayed start. So when I got to work I texted the W who was still in bed, that the kids have a 2hr delay and hope she has coverage for them or work if she's late. I knew the answer, but just wanted to ding her a bit.

So she calls me pleading her case; "I can't go in late. There's no one to cover for me. I'll get written up. I'll loose pay". I asked her what she's going to do when I've moved out in the near future. She replies "I don't know, get written up I guess". So finally she asks "Can't you work from home till they are off to school?" Of course I can. We have high-speed internet and I can log into work from the house. I just wanted her to sweat it alittle and have to ask me for help. I tell her "Sure, I can do that if your asking.". She says "yes, I'm asking". So I tell her I'll see her soon.

This was a tough call. I wanted her to fall with this situation to feel how it's gonna be. But on the flip side I want first right of denial within the custody agreement for when ever she can't watch the kids and I'm available. So hopefully I did the right thing by stepping up for my kids sake rather than punish her for her lack of planning.


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## HurtinginTN

twindad said:


> So hopefully I did the right thing by stepping up for my kids sake rather than punish her for her lack of planning.


Doing right by your kids is always the best route. She will have plenty of opportunities to fall.


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## maxter

Just got an email from my W. Seems that she planned a Sunday brunch for the two of us some time ago before the death blow she dealt to our marriage. She made reservations at a very fancy restaurant & gardens and lined up child care. I guess this was probably for our 12th anniversary. Anyway, she asks me if I want to go this Sunday. Here's how I replied:

"Wow, really?! Why would I want to go to brunch with you under the present circumstances? We are getting divorced. No thank you. Call your boyfriend, I'm sure he'd like to spend some quality time with you now that you're going to be single & available. But please leave our children with me next time for God sake."

Yes, I'm extremely bitter inside and just couldn't help myself. A simple 'No' just wouldn't do it for me.


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## Lostouthere

I would have left it off after the getting divorced part. The only thing the rest of it is going to do is give her a reason to be and stay angry at you plus it lets her know that its still bothering you pretty bad. Easier said than done but hey dont give her nothing.


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## Sod

I would have politely said Thanks for the offer but I will be spending the day with people who care about me (my kids)


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## sammy3

Oh Twindad , it doesnt get easier does it ? 

~sammy


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## golfergirl

Sod said:


> I would have politely said Thanks for the offer but I will be spending the day with people who care about me (my kids)


I think the 'brunch' is bs. For someone who can't plan to get kids to and from school on flood day (that was her -right?), how on earth did she plan this brunch - what a month or more in advance? She was trying to set up a situation to reconnect. Every once in awhile, the controlled 'I don't care' attitude and just say f*** it and let it out on them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

Lostouthere said:


> I would have left it off after the getting divorced part. The only thing the rest of it is going to do is give her a reason to be and stay angry at you plus it lets her know that its still bothering you pretty bad. Easier said than done but hey dont give her nothing.


I know, I know! It's just so hard sometimes. I'm working on moving past the anger and resentment. It comes in waves sometimes.


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## HurtinginTN

Lostouthere said:


> I would have left it off after the getting divorced part. The only thing the rest of it is going to do is give her a reason to be and stay angry at you plus it lets her know that its still bothering you pretty bad. Easier said than done but hey dont give her nothing.



I probably would have said the same thing. My stbxw's response would be her usual "Well, at least you remind me why we're not together." Funny how mentioning her boyfriend always brings that comment out. I agree with lostouthere that just gives them internal validation that the affair is justified since we are such jerks. Go figure.


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## maxter

golfergirl said:


> I think the 'brunch' is bs. For someone who can't plan to get kids to and from school on flood day (that was her -right?), how on earth did she plan this brunch - what a month or more in advance? She was trying to set up a situation to reconnect. Every once in awhile, the controlled 'I don't care' attitude and just say f*** it and let it out on them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Believe me when I say for every one of these slips I bite my tongue 10 times holding back the resentment & anger.


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## HurtinginTN

twindad said:


> I know, I know! It's just so hard sometimes. I'm working on moving past the anger and resentment. It comes in waves sometimes.


Very fast moving, very high, very powerful waves. Thoughts of OM = Strong earthquake triggering tsunami of anger and bitterness. I too am struggling with controlling this. Some days are better than others.


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## aug

twindad said:


> Just got an email from my W. Seems that she planned a Sunday brunch for the two of us some time ago before the death blow she dealt to our marriage. She made reservations at a very fancy restaurant & gardens and lined up child care. I guess this was probably for our 12th anniversary. Anyway, she asks me if I want to go this Sunday. Here's how I replied:
> 
> "Wow, really?! Why would I want to go to brunch with you under the present circumstances? We are getting divorced. No thank you. Call your boyfriend, I'm sure he'd like to spend some quality time with you now that you're going to be single & available. But please leave our children with me next time for God sake."
> 
> Yes, I'm extremely bitter inside and just couldn't help myself. A simple 'No' just wouldn't do it for me.



Letting a zinger go once in a while actually feels kinda good.


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## aug

HurtinginTN said:


> I probably would have said the same thing. My stbxw's response would be her usual "Well, at least you remind me why we're not together." Funny how mentioning her boyfriend always brings that comment out. I agree with lostouthere that just gives them internal validation that the affair is justified since we are such jerks. Go figure.



Respond with: "Exactly!"


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## maxter

The person came to see my car I have for sale. It's a younger lady and her fiance firefighter. He and his brother are into old cars and she wants one of her own. She really liked it and emailed me tonight to confirm she wants to buy. I had to come down alittle on price, but not too bad. I'll be able to pay off all our credit cards and then split the remaining money between the W and I. We'll each have a couple thousand dollars. I'll have some seed money to get setup in my new place soon plus money for attorneys fees.

W told me at supper tonight I don't have to leave. She told me she's not pushing me out. I thought right, just keep me hanging in limbo and supporting your @ss! She told me we both made huge mistakes that poisoned our marriage. Yes, that's true but I finally figured out what I had and what I was going to loose and sought out help for myself. She acknowledged that after I got help and made all the changes in myself that I finally became the husband and father she wanted. She said that due to all the emotional abuse and neglect I put her through that she didn't trust me, that I would maintain. I told her that doesn't make sense because I've sustained and improved steadily for 3 1/2yrs.

The conversation drifted to what things I would take with me. She asked me to leave the new living room furniture. I said I don't want it anyway. I told her I'm taking very minimal stuff. Just my personal belongings like clothes and nicknacks plus my grandmothers bedroom furniture. She agreed with that. Then she tells me I can take our wedding dishes because my grandmother bought them for us. I said no you can keep them, what will you use. She then tells me she just bought new dishes to replace them. Wow! How nice that she's thinking ahead. Sounds like she's ready for me to go- buying new dishes and all. Enough said for now.

Oh, one last thing. I had concerns that W caught wind of me being on this website so I had to change my username. Same old guy with twins, just a new name.


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## Almostrecovered

May wish to ask a mod to move into the private section
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

UPDATE-
Looks like the car sale is going to go through. The buyer has loan approval. We just need to arrange a date to make the transaction that works for both of us being that they are out of state.

I'm going to attempt one last time to discuss custody with the STBXW tonight. I can't come up with any better alternatives than my original plan of one week with her, then one week with me. It's the most straight forward approach. I'm going to offer her 'visitation' each night during my week to try and even out the time we have with our kids. During her week, I will see them every day after school for 2hrs until she gets home from work so it's only fair. Hopefully that will appease her. Otherwise I will have to file a custody claim and wait 2-4wks for a conference with a judge. And if we don't come to an agreement at that time then a hearing will need to be scheduled which will drag it out even longer.

In the meantime, I cannot move out of the marital home and must continue to endure the emotional pain and stress of living side by side with her. Uhg! I'm also strongly thinking of just going ahead and leasing the nice place I found so that no one else grabs it away from me. It's in an ideal location, very clean, almost like new and quite suitable for me and my girls needs. Even if I could move out today I would still be paying rent starting now. So what's the difference if I lease it now but don't move in for a month (or possibly longer)?


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## krismimo

Hello Maxter, I have been following your thread and decided to say something. Your story reminds me of another guy his name is Shamow your stories are so similiar it is scary. And also the way your handeling it is similar as well. I'm sorry for what your going through and hope in time you heal and have peace, and also remember that not all women are bad just this one is. Your story reminded me a lot of things my ex did to me and the way he argued was so similiar. He was a serial cheater for several years. At that time in my life that was the hardest and hurtful thing I had ever expereinced. But in time the pain went away, I thank my family and friends that got me through that difficult time, then two years later I got married to a wonderful person. 

And he is a God sent, to me I feel that if I stayed jaded and crossed I would have missed my oppertunity to meet the man that I was suppose to be with, I learned and grew up I knew what I wanted in a person and what I didn't want. And I appreciate him EVEN more because of the things I didn't receive from my previous relationship. I guess in a nut shell all I'm saying is take one day at a time and even though your hurting now and your angry now, don't let her win by STAYING that way because it will eat you alive. And that is a hard thing to do, but you can do it. Besides try to find peace with it because weather you like it or not she is the mother of your children and no matter what you decide your stuck with her so do what you have to do to get over this horrible situation but don't let it consume you.  Good luck and know there are people here to support you and although you will never meet in person, we have your back.


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## krismimo

You sound like a cool guy keep your head up.


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## maxter

The STBXW struck again! She screwed me with work this morning. When I came home last evening her van was parked outside. That usually means she's leaving early in the morning for work. She didn't say anything to me about it, but she does have a funeral to attend out of state today so I thought maybe she's going in early? 

So when I go upstairs I ask her "Are you going into work early tomorrow?". She just gives me a confused look then says "No, I don't work tomorrow, I have the funeral in VA and have to leave at 5am". Well that screws me because I didn't know I needed to get the girls to school and would be 2hrs late for work, plus I have to leave alilttle early anyway for a therapy appt. So I calmly tell her she didn't give me her schedule info and I'm not prepared. She goes off on me about she can't talk to me, I won't talk to her (true, except for kids and finances) and too bad for me. So I remain calm and tell her we only need to discuss any schedule changes that affect the girls and she didn't go that. She sticks her nose up in the air and walks off into our bedroom.

So I grab a bite to eat and get a quick shower. As I'm getting dressed she says to me "I thought I told you the schedule". I simply responded "No, you never did but that's ok. I'll cover for you". I wanted to go off on her and let off alot of anger & resentment, but I held back as that would serve no purpose. I suppose I should start keeping a log or journal of these incidents to use against her in court later on.

I jump in my car and drive all the way back to work to get my laptop so I can work from home and not get in trouble for missing two hours and then leaving early. By the time I got back she was asleep and I never had a chance to talk custody. And today will be no good due to the funeral. She will be exhausted and probably feeling sad tonight so I doubt we could have a constructive conversation. I guess it will have to wait till Wednesday now.


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## Riverside MFT

This always happens, just when things are starting to smooth out, somebody dies.  j/k


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## maxter

I just got a text from my STBXW apologizing for not communicating her schedule better. I did not thank her for the apology. I replied that we must do better going forward to coordinate our plans or there will be unecessary conflict.

The next text was about her van. The radio quit playing today and she's asking me about fuses and stuff. Jeez, just what I don't need- her asking me to fix something that is her responsibility now. It could just be the fuse or the radio may have finally died. Chrysler radios are known for poor quality and this one lasted 10yrs so it's on its last leg anyway.

Yesterday she cleaned out the inside of the van and I was working around the garage doing odds & ends. I suggested she check her fluid levels to which she replied "yeah right". I then told her we both know the van uses oil and it needs to be checked often. If it runs too low the engine will seize up. She replies sarcastically "Hey, if it blows up, it blows up- I don't care." That's the response I expected so no surprises there. As long as I'm stuck living here I'll keep checking it myself, but I won't tell her that I'm doing it. When I'm gone who knows what will happen. She doesn't even think about preventive maintainance or checking things around the house.


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## Jellybeans

Name change, Maxter?

What is going on with the divorce proceedings?


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## maxter

Jellybeans said:


> Name change, Maxter?
> 
> What is going on with the divorce proceedings?


See bottom of post #141 (name change).

D action is in the 90day holding period. So nothing can happen even if I wanted it to until the end of November. Then after the 90days expire, she could sign if she agrees with it. All the D claim says is the marriage is irretrievably broken and asks for it to be annulled and that all marital assets be divided fair and equitably per state law. It's pretty simple. But the STBXW already told me she won't sign and will hold it up for the max term of 2 years. She won't say why. I think deep down somewhere in the basement of her mind she thinks this will work itself out and the D won't happen. One thing is she can apply for and get temporary alimony as long as the D is unresolved. I suspect that is a big part of it since her salary is so low right now.

But at the same time she's doing absolutely NOTHING to change herself or attempt to get in my good graces. And she buys new dishes. And has thought about separation of the furniture. I don't know with her anymore. Its really sad, this terrible person she's become. I don't know how she can look at herself in the mirror each day.

The custody issue is still open. We haven't been able to talk seriously about it for over a week now. I will try again later this week. I think her position is cemented as far as she's concerned. So I'll end up having to file myself and take it up with the family courts.


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## maxter

STBXW has an appointment with either an attorney or legal aid today to look into child support & alimony. She pulled the last 12 months of my pay stubs out of the filing cabinet yesterday to take with her. No biggie there. The discovery process would require me to provide them anyway.

I was just about ready to sit down with her the end of this week to discuss financial support (outside of the courts). I was going to offer her more that what she would get based on our state guidelines in hopes that we could reach an agreement between ourselves. One that would give us flexibility to adapt throughout the year(s) as our situations change- rather than be locked in by court order. My fear is she will get an overly positive spin (just like she did with custody) about how much $$ she will get from me which will again cloud her judgement on the issue.

Not much I can do at this point. She has her appoinment, gets some numbers and I can still sit down with her to present my proposal. She either likes it or doesn't and we go from there.

Oh, BTW- I fixed the radio in her van. It was just a blown fuse. And I checked the fluids while I was messing around with it. My attorney told me since I informed her about the required maintenance task of checking fluids, if she fails to do so and something happens then she's responsible due to negligence on her part.


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## Jellybeans

I wouldn't offer her anymore than what state guidelines say. She is having an affair that had led to this. Ask for what you want and serve her with papers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

Stop fixing things for her. She can get the other man to do it or do it on her own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrQuatto

Jellybeans said:


> Stop fixing things for her. She can get the other man to do it or do it on her own.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, as infantile as it sounds, she is winning the control war. She mentions a problem, you fix it. She wins. I know it sounds childish but remember you are dealing with a child in tantrum, a DS. 

As Palpatine said in ROTJ, "With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant."

Q~


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## maxter

Yes, I know, I know! I shouldn't do anything for her. But it's not that cut & dry being that I'm stuck living with her, sleeping in the same bed every night until the custody issue is resolved and I can move out. It's touch and go every day and I'm doing my best to keep the situation amicable with her. She's an emotional woman, especially under stress, and can become vindictive and nasty at times. What am I supposed to do, cook a full dinner and not make enough for her? Exclude her from the family meal each night? Doing stuff like that would just make it unbearable and perhaps dangerous to remain living there. So I did a few minor things for her- I'm the better person for it even though she doesn't deserve an ounce of effort from me. Right now I'm tip-toeing through the $hit until I get some things in place legally and can get the hell out.


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## Sod

Honestly you are being more than fair in your handling this. I would continue to assist but as long as its not an inconvenience for you as you are still in the same house. Until you physically separate, its hard to co-exist by cutting the other person off without it coming off as spiteful. Do what you think is right but dont put yourself out. It definitely will make you the better person but dont walk around on eggshells as the situation is tough enough


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## maxter

Sod said:


> Honestly you are being more than fair in your handling this. I would continue to assist but as long as its not an inconvenience for you as you are still in the same house. Until you physically separate, its hard to co-exist by cutting the other person off without it coming off as spiteful. Do what you think is right but dont put yourself out. It definitely will make you the better person but dont walk around on eggshells as the situation is tough enough


Thanks Sod for your understanding. I'm definitely not going to put myself out to do things for her. I stood my ground on the ride she wanted to/from her colonoscopy and she managed on her own. And will do the same for other things that will certainly come up. But as you said, co-existing is tuff at times under the circumstances. And believe me she is looking at everything I say and do to prove I'm out to stick it to her. That is her perception of me for whatever reason. My therapist says she is 'projecting' her traits on to me because her past behaviors reflect her vindictive side. Maybe so. So far all her examples/proof that she's brought to me have been a failure as I have disproved them.


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## Sod

Dont lower yourself to that level. You dont need to justify your actions to her. Keep your head up and focus on what you can control. My STBXW projects the same level of paranoia at me about things I say/do and what my friends or family say/do regardless on whether it actually has anything to do with her or not. At least I dont live in the same house so its easier for me


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## sh0t

Good luck to you man. Been following. I feel your pain.


----------



## maxter

Wife just emailed me telling me she has an appointment with her attorney today. Oh boy! I told her good luck with it.

She also stated in her email she's looking at new bedroom furniture since I will be taking my grandmother's two dressers when I move out. Oh boy #2! Two dressers that only have my clothes in them because she is using our old changing table/dresser combo and the closet in our one daughters room. I cautioned her about making large purchases in our current legal and financial situation. I reminded her any debts incurred since the date of separation are considered individual debts. I gave her suggestions on how to replace the two dressers without spending alot of money. Of course my sensible suggestions won't fly with her. She needs new, shiney bedroom furniture to go with the new dishware & glasses she just bought. Arrrrrrrgh!


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## Jellybeans

Sod said:


> Honestly you are being more than fair in your handling this.


I agree. I don't know how you sleep in the same bed with her every night. 



maxter said:


> My therapist says she is 'projecting' her traits on to me because her past behaviors reflect her vindictive side.


Ya think? 



maxter said:


> She also stated in her email she's looking at new bedroom furniture since I will be taking my grandmother's two dressers when I move out.
> 
> I cautioned her about making large purchases in our current legal and financial situation. I reminded her any debts incurred since the date of separation are considered individual debts. I gave her suggestions on how to replace the two dressers without spending alot of money. Of course my sensible suggestions won't fly with her. She needs new, shiney bedroom furniture to go with the new dishware & glasses she just bought. Arrrrrrrgh!


I would tell her, "Cool. You are on your own for those expenses. I will not be responsible for any purchases you make any longer."

I HOPE YOU HAVE STARTED SEPARATING ACCOUNTS, MAXTER!!! She could very well try to use your credit cards and/or banking to finance her "new shiney bedroom furniture to go with her new dishware & glasses."


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## maxter

[/QUOTE]
I HOPE YOU HAVE STARTED SEPARATING ACCOUNTS, MAXTER!!! She could very well try to use your credit cards and/or banking to finance her "new shiney bedroom furniture to go with her new dishware & glasses."[/QUOTE]

Oh, yes I have done that already. Separate checking and savings was done weeks ago. And last week I closed all joint retail cc's and informed her about it. She actually thanked me for doing that. I sensed a sarcastic tone in her email 'thank you'.


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## Jellybeans

Good!


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## maxter

Having a bad morning today. Not feeling so good. Nerves are frayed at the moment.

The only good thing so far this morning is my direct deposit to my personal account started. And I'm getting alittle more take home pay than I anticipated after dropping my 401K. 

STBXW seems to have accepted the finality of our situation and is moving forward with her plans to be single. She ordered bedroom furniture yesterday. And she's anxious for me to remove anything that reminds her of me or our family (like my grandmothers furniture, our bed, the wedding dishes we were given etc).

All she said about the attorney visit when I asked how it went was "FINE!".

She's still in contact with the other man. He's advising her with the divorce since he's been through it already. She talked about me wanting to work out support payments between us outside of court. He told her to file and get court orders to lock it in. Oh-well. Nothing I can do but deal with it when it comes.

Custody is deadlocked. Basically she will fight to the death to get primary custody. Seems that if I have a place within the same school district that it could sway things my way. So I'm going to lease the place on Mill Rd today. I called the realtor to let her know and I will pay the deposit at lunchtime today. I also just setup an appointment with my attorney for Monday to file for custody. 

She is very two-faced with me. She puts on a sad, sympathetic, understanding, willing to talk type face with me. But with others she is stone cold and exhibits a ruthless mentality. This custody issue is going to be very ugly. And it pisses me off! All I'm asking for is to continue the situation we have now which is that both of us share in and are part of our childrens lives. Like we've been doing for almost 10yrs. She keeps bringing up things like "Who do they want when they are sick" or "I'm the one who tells them I love them in the morning before school". No $hit! I'm at work when they get up for school. I pray to god a judge can see through this biased BS and understand how both of us have contributed to our kids lives. Sorry for ranting. I didn't want things to head this way.


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## Sod

Hang in there, I know its painful to deal with this but you will get through it. Ultimately you both know that if things go to a judge neither of you will be happy with the outcome. You need to protect your rights and talking to your attorney about protecting your parental rights is appropriate.

My STBXW was hardheaded about some items (not kids because we agreed 50/50 early on) but when reality hit her when I started pushing back legally on things her lawyer seemed to be able to talk some sense into her about being unreasonable. Sadly, like you, the only winners at the end of this are going to be the lawyers as we cant have rational conversations about this directly.


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## maxter

Opinions Please!!!

I'm going to file for physical custody of my twin girls next week. My attorney advised that I file for Primary physical custody with the W getting every other weekend and some weekly visitation. He wants to start off at the top so we can then negotiate down to what I really want which is 50/50. I understand the concept of asking for more than you need, then comprimise for what you wanted in the first place. But he doesn't know my wife. My asking for Primary custody will set her off completely (might make her go temporarily insane) and set the stage for an all-out custody WAR. I'm reluctant to set up that kind of a conflict. On the other hand if I go in asking for 50/50 then I have no wiggle room to negotiate and could end up with less than I want. I dunno, it's a goddamn chess game. What do you all think? Experiences? Stories to tell?


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## Jellybeans

Whatever you do, file fast for primary custody so she doesn't get ahead of you.

YES, ask for more than what you originally wanted. Your lawyer knows what he's doing re: negotiations. 

FILE FAST. Get everything in writing stat before she does!

I'm not surprised she's still involved with OM. See? She never had any intention of cutting it off with him. Max--you deserve so much better.


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## golfergirl

Jellybeans said:


> Whatever you do, file fast for primary custody so she doesn't get ahead of you.
> 
> YES, ask for more than what you originally wanted. Your lawyer knows what he's doing re: negotiations.
> 
> FILE FAST. Get everything in writing stat before she does!
> 
> I'm not surprised she's still involved with OM. See? She never had any intention of cutting it off with him. Max--you deserve so much better.


Ask for more than you want and file first. Even though you are in a 'no fault' state??? Her banging her OM while kids are in same hotel suite is poor parenting judgement at best and abusive at worst - not to mention humiliating for her. Tell your lawyer and USE THAT. No sense playing fair with someone like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

DEFINITELY MENTION THE HOTEL THING IN THE DISCOVERY PAPERWORK when you file for primary custody of your kids!!! When she sees in writing you calling her out for her affair and taking the kids to a hotel and f-cking the OM with your kids there, she will step down a notch. 

It was only when I listed EVERYTHING that went down in the discovery paperwork that my exH lost his sh!t and finally started coming around to negotiating with. Before that, he told me, "No way, no how am I bending." He was LIVID that I spoke the truth. He told me "I thought these things were private matters." Uh, no. They're not. Not when you file for divorce and it goes on public record.You wanna play hardball, then all the skeletons are coming out. 

He was soo mad.

The difference between he and I was I did not fear people knowing what happened. He was scared as hell. 

I told him "I have nothing to lose." He was pissed!


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## Unsure in Seattle

Absolutely file for primary custody. If it's war, so be it- you're not the one who drug the children to a hotel.


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## Why Not Be Happy?

listen to your lawyer---especially on this issue.


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## COGypsy

Filing is going to set her off.

Filing first is going to set her off.

Not giving her all your income, the house, car and your life savings is going to set her off.

It is a chess game, but more like that Harry Potter chess game where the stakes were considerably higher than moving bits of plastic around a board.

You're talking about risking primary custody of your kids to a woman who thinks its okay to take them with her to a hotel to get high and get laid with her boyfriend (am I remembering right?). What will she do when she doesn't feel like she has to hide what she's doing?

You have to be strong, assertive and aggressive not just to protect yourself and your assets, but your kids as well.


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## aug

I agree with others. Start at the top for everything. You'll need the room to show you can give or exchange. Better to let her have her anger now and watch it burn off. After that, it'll be easier to negotiate.

She's still with the OM? Interesting... Might be able to use that to your advantage? Maybe, suggest to her to stay with the OM?


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## Zzyzx

I agree with the foregoing advice to file first and start at the top. Your lawyer knows what he is doing. It's war anyway, she's going to be angry no matter what so you may as well start at the top. Don't worry, you won't get it, the idea is to have wiggle room to give something in the negotiation. If you can substantiate that bit about the hotel room, do not hesitate to use it, you want the judge and the attorneys to know what they're dealing with.


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## maxter

Thank you, thank you, thank you all for giving me positive perspective on this. I agree, I need to air all her dirty laundry in the custody claim. But she's got some bad stuff on me too like all the drinking I did years ago. At least I have a long stretch of sobriety in my favor to counter that fact. And I know she will bring up some of our fights in the past (like 10years ago) that were pretty volatile. We've both done some pretty stupid and nasty stuff to each other at times. Although I would say that my behavior has greatly improved since I stopped drinking and started therapy & meds years ago.

I paid the deposit on my new place at lunch today. It's the nice half house near where I live now. So I'm close to the kids (about 2min drive) and in the same school district. I plan to take occupancy Oct 1st, but I don't know when I will be able to move in. Have to wait for the custody situation to be resolved and that could be many weeks.


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## Jellybeans

Glad to hear you paid the deposit. Very good. Steps to move onward.


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## Unsure in Seattle

That's your past. What she just did is harmful to you and the kids RIGHT NOW.


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## maxter

Unsure in Seattle said:


> That's your past. What she just did is harmful to you and the kids RIGHT NOW.


I hope the court sees it that way. That her recent behaviors involving the affair are of more importance than something I said or did ten years ago.


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## Unsure in Seattle

Sure, and she actively jepordized their safety by putting her selfishness first. Unless something is grossly out of whack, that is not going to go ignored by any reasonable judge.


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## maxter

UPDATE-
Last night was our girls school open house. When we were leaving to go over to the school, I loaded the kids in her van (like always) and I got in the passenger side as she came into the garage. She immediately says "No, we're taking your car this time". OK, no problem. I have the girls bail out of the van and into my car while I go back inside to get my keys. 

It's only a short drive to their school, maybe 3mins tops. As we pull away from the house, STBXW says "Didn't you get paid today?" I respond that I did get paid. She asks "where is the money? Checking doesn't show any deposits." So I calmly remind her that I have my own accounts now and it was deposited into my checking. I can see her demeaner quickly go stiff and tense.

She says "So this is how you're going to be, I knew you would do this." I responded with "We wouldn't be in this situation if you didn't have an affair and had accepted my many offers to reconcile." Well, that really pissed her off. She then says "Well, If you never took a drink, I wouldn't have had an affair." OMG! Yeah, I actually said that outloud. I say to her "So you are blaming me for your bad decision to commit adultery?". She says "Yes!". By that time we were pulling up to the school so the conversation stopped. But she was fuming. She jumped out of the car, yanked the kids out and rushed them into building, stomping all the way.

We didn't talk the rest of the night. Just ignored each other in the house. I made 'slice & bake' cookies for the girls bedtime snack. Got them all ready for bed on time while she lay on the sofa watching soap operas. I told the girls to get mommy so she could say goodnight and get them settled in. She wasn't in the mood so she told them to go play for a few minutes. 45 minutes later they finally got to bed. And now it's Friday! Another fine day in limbo-land.


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## aug

Drinking and adultery are not even on the same level of betrayal and untrustworthiness.


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## Almostrecovered

at least you know where her defense will mainly rest in the divorce proceedings


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## Jellybeans

Aug-- adultery IS betrayal and untrustworthiness. 

MAX--good for your calling it out on her but DO NOT talk about that stuff in front of your kids. At all. In the future if she starts her BS, tell her "We can discuss this later" (away from the kids.

Once you are alone tell her clearly "I am not to blame for your adultery. You are having an affair because you chose to. Nobody makes you cheat. I will NOT own that for you. You cheated" and let her stew.

Don't ever let her pull her stupid "I cheated cause you made me." That is sooo ridiculous.
She is ap iece of work.

GOOD FOR YOU for separating finance. Be the bigger man, the more dignified person. Cut all your emotions out of dealing with her. She will feel so stupid. And you will feel like the adult.


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## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> MAX--good for your calling it out on her but DO NOT talk about that stuff in front of your kids. At all. In the future if she starts her BS, tell her "We can discuss this later" (away from the kids.


:iagree: I know that is sometimes hard to do. I've been guilty of it as well, but I always try to keep it away from the kids.


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## RunningOnEmpty

+1 on not arguing or talking about divorce in front of your kids. 

Do you have an mp3 recorder running 24x7 to protect yourself? Her next move will be to file a TRO against you and kick you out of the house.

There are some stats that in about 40-45% of contested divorces, the wives file false DV against their STBXs.


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## maxter

WEEKEND UPDATE-

For those of you concerned about the kids overhearing, the discussion in the car was low-key between us (no raised voices or yelling) and the girls where watching a DVD with their headphones on. They were engrossed in the movie for those few minutes during our discussion.

I talked with the STBXW about finanacial support yesterday afternoon. It went OK. No arguments although she still complained that she will have no 'extra' money left over each month after paying the bills. She wanted to save for a summer vacation and other stuff. I told her the days of summer vacations, seeing every new movie that comes out, eating out alot are over. There's no money for any of that now. I asked her what did she suggest since she was getting 60% of our combined income to start with. She didn't have any solutions of course.

We went over child support till the girls are 18 and temporary alimony for 2 years. Plus I will keep the girls on my insurance till they're 18 and keep her on it for 2 years. After 2 years, she's on her own. I told her that is plenty of time for her to increase her salary into the $30's so that she's self sufficient. I offered to split the home equity payment 50/50 with her since it's marital debt anyway and we're equally responsible for it. Since she will be living in the marital home, she's responsible for the mortgage, taxes, insurance, and maintenance.

I told her I'm doing this voluntarily as a show of good faith (yeah that will get me flamed) and that if she feels the need to file for support then *all offers are off the table *and she takes her chances in court. I'm sure her attorney will tell her she can get alot more. I told her to look at what I have left to live on and figure out where I'm supposed to get more $$ to give her? I know I'm expecting that some how she is rational and reasonable about this and it's probably a fairy tale on my part but it's the ethical and moral thing to do. Hopefully one day she sees that. And hopefully one day my girls will understand it and what I did to support them the best I could under the circumstances. 

She keeps asking me what my plans are, did I sign a lease, etc etc. I tell her the same story everytime. I'm stuck in limbo until we agree on custody of the girls. She says she wants things to start off slowly without pushing them too fast to live with me and swap houses and so on. She suggested they stay in the marital home and I just keep them overnight one time per week on Wed night and go from there. I told her I'm OK with some kind of ramp up over time but that we need to agree what the end result will be. I can't have it be open ended and then she balks later leaving me standing on the outside. I told her that and she got upset that I need to have a set schedule and timeline.

She asked why I must have that. I told her I need that schedule so that nothing is left to chance. I can't tell her the real reason is it might set a status-quo that could harm my custody rights. Maybe she knows that and that is why she's pushing it? I don't know. When we talked about the times when she has the girls and I get them after school, I said that I would get their homework started, make a meal and then when she gets home I would leave so she has her time with them in the evening those days. She tells me I don't have to leave, she's not pushing me out now, I can continue to stay. That pissed me off! 

I told her I bet she would like me to stay and continue to 'keep' her and support her financially and domestically. That she would like to continue using me, treating me like a roomate. I told her she is a toxic person and has poisoned me emotionally. I need to start a new life, separate from her, and one that includes my children. She wants everthing to appear the same to them, but dammit that's not possible anymore. She just can't get that through her thick head.

Sorry for the rant. It's all pent up inside and I'm really dreading filing for custody because I know that will set things into a downward spiral with her. God please give me the strength to survive this emotional torture.


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## maxter

UPDATE- Custody Consult
I met with my attorney yesterday to go over filing for custody of my two girls. He really put me at ease over my concerns about mothers/girls having an advantage over a father's rights. My state has seen alot of custody law changes in the last 20 years that basically put both parents on equal standing going into any custody deliberations. And it doesn't hurt that he's the same age as the Judge and they used to practice law together! He says they have a good repoire.

The process starts off with me filing a custody claim, basically suing my STBXW for Primary physical custody (70% or greater) and joint legal custody (50/50). Then she will get served papers. Then me, STBXW, attorneys, and judge meet for a conference. No testimony, exhibits, or evidence are allowed. It's only a conversation back and forth between the judge and parents to see where we stand on the custody issue.

My attorney wants to use a positive strategy going into the conference. He wants to build me up to be the 'better' parent (rather than tear her down- that comes later if necessary) and I have tons of examples over the years for him to use of how I've been a good father, a good provider, loving parent, etc. Also the fact I have a really nice place to live secured, it's in the same school district, 2mins from the marital home are all in my favor.

If we cannot reach an agreement during the conference, then a hearing will be scheduled. That's where I don't want to go. In a hearing there would be testimony, witnesses, evidence, and possibly interviews of the kids. This is where all the nasty $hit would happen and I really don't want to go down that road. Exposing all our crap to the court and attacking each other will only make coparenting that much harder afterward.

I tried talking with the STBXW last night about custody for like the 5th time and it didn't go well. She has a huge amount of bitterness and anger welling up within her now that the D process has started and as she starts to see the raw reality of what she's facing alone. She started saying nasty things to taunt & provoke me like saying maybe I should beat her or push her to get my way. Saying things about what a terrible husband I was. I didn't bite. At one point I laughed out loud which really pissed her off. She says "you think its funny but just wait". I replied I'm chuckling because the things she is saying are just driving home the fact that I'm making the right decision to D and seek custody. That shut her right up. After a long pause she huffs "Good Night!". She lay there for a long time before falling asleep (as did I). Seems her thoughts were keeping her awake.

So I plan to move forward with filing for custody. The claim should be written up today and I'll sign it this afternoon or tomorrow morning. Then it will be filed at the courthouse and she will be served (again!).


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## Unsure in Seattle

Sounds good, and it sounds like you have a good attorney on your side. 

I guess stop trying to discuss it with her...


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## Tall Average Guy

maxter said:


> I tried talking with the STBXW last night about custody for like the 5th time and it didn't go well. She has a huge amount of bitterness and anger welling up within her now that the D process has started and as she starts to see the raw reality of what she's facing alone. *She started saying nasty things to taunt & provoke me like saying maybe I should beat her or push her to get my way. * Saying things about what a terrible husband I was. I didn't bite. At one point I laughed out loud which really pissed her off. She says "you think its funny but just wait". I replied I'm chuckling because the things she is saying are just driving home the fact that I'm making the right decision to D and seek custody. That shut her right up. After a long pause she huffs "Good Night!". She lay there for a long time before falling asleep (as did I). Seems her thoughts were keeping her awake.


These statements would make me nervous. Sounds like she is trying to provoke you. Be careful


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## maxter

Tall Average Guy said:


> These statements would make me nervous. Sounds like she is trying to provoke you. Be careful


Yes, I know! She has a habit of doing this in the past during arguments. She would throw things at me or throw something of mine in the garbage (like my supper or my medicine), then taunt me verbally to retaliate. I'm aware of her tactics and don't give in to them anymore when she tries to draw me in. It's tough to do though sometimes. Some of her trash talk stings at times. I must keep my mind focused on the end result which is to separate myself from her and rebuild my life with my kids.


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## HurtinginTN

maxter said:


> Plus I will keep the girls on my insurance till they're 18 and keep her on it for 2 years. After 2 years, she's on her own.


Have you talked to your attorney about this part? My attorney advised me that I can not keep my stbxw on my insurance once the divorce becomes final. That is one reason I considered a legal separation instead, so that she could remain on my insurance for a while longer. It would reduce her costs without affecting my costs, thereby reducing alimony.


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## maxter

HurtinginTN said:


> Have you talked to your attorney about this part? My attorney advised me that I can not keep my stbxw on my insurance once the divorce becomes final. That is one reason I considered a legal separation instead, so that she could remain on my insurance for a while longer. It would reduce her costs without affecting my costs, thereby reducing alimony.


We don't have legal separation in Pennsylvania. Your point about keeping her on after the D is final is a good one. I don't intend for that to happen. She plans on delaying the D as long as possible which can be up to 2yrs in our state. My offer was to keep her on my insurance which is cheaper than hers during the process of D whether it's 2mos or 2yrs. After the D is final, she's on her own for health insurance. And as you said, providing this little bit of additional support reduces her costs and reduces my temporary alimony. For me there is no change in cost because electing the 'family' plan costs the same whether its just my two kids or includes her.


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## krismimo

I'm sorry but there really isn't anything healthy or good about this situation, and I mean the part where your staying there I know your trying to establish the custody part until you move out but these things take time, somtimes a long time, have you really thought about a long term game plan for yourself? How long are you willing to stay there before it gets really bad? I mean you have seen the movie WAR OF THE ROSES right? 

Seriously are you really trying to stay there AT LEAST 3 or 4 months from now, especially the way she is behaving, her behavior is getting WORSE and it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

I wouldn't put it past her that she is stalling with you about the custody because she knows that you won't move out until it is settled.. You have to assume that she will fight you as much as she can. When it comes to custody cases this will take about a total of six months to year, maybe two depends on the state. 


All I'm saying is fight for your kids outside the home, you should have kicked her but out the house when you first found out, not just because she cheated because until she apologizes and acknowledged that she was wrong and or tried to reconcile YOU CAN"T TRUST ANYTHING SHE TELLS YOU. But your past that now, nothng you can really do about that. This is going to get really messy my friend. You staying there is really not helping either. Make a EXIT Plan and do it ASAP.


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## maxter

Krismimo-
I hear you, but I'm stuck! Attorney told me not to leave the marital home until a custody order is in place. In my state there are statutes in place to prevent long, drawn out battles over children. For example, the first conference I talked about must happen within 30 days. And the initial hearing, if there is to be one, must happen within 45 days after that. Yes, that's at least two more months and it's terribly painful but I gotta stick it out for my girls. I certainly will explore some other options with my attorney but I think I'm limited at this time.

I could leave right now, but he told me not to unless I take the girls with me. Doing that, uprooting them, literally 'taking' them out of my STBXW's presence would be devestating to them and actually trigger an all out war between us. I honestly think she would go berserk if I did that. And without a custody order she could come to retrieve them and then what? The police are called, they can't do anything because we both have equal rights to them, the kids are put in the position of choosing which one to go with. I don't think so. That scenario isn't an option. So I endure for the time being.

And yes, I've seen WAR OF THE ROSES several times. Our situation isn't to that extreme yet and I pray it never even gets close to it.


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## krismimo

I'ts still going to be bad and I symphathize but I hope you do have more options because although your doing it for your girls what you both are doing to them is not healthy either. Parents tend to forget that kids are far more receptive than they think. Good luck your going to need it.


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## maxter

I found a Parenting Plan form online. It's 7 pages long and very detailed. I've already gone through it once filling out all the info. I need to review one more time and refine it so I have a comprehensive, well thought out plan ready for the court conference.



STBXW called me on her way to work. She asked me if I signed a lease yet. I told her no and asked why hesitantly. She says she just drove by the half house I was looking at and the rental sign is gone. No $hit sherlock! I paid the security deposit last week. Anyway, I played completely dumb. I asked her if she was screwing with me to make me mad. She said no, the sign is gone, someone must have rented it. I replied back sharply "Well, that's just freakin great. Thanks alot!" and hung up on her. She didn't call back. She must be squirming with joy in her seat all the way to work thinking it's gone and now I won't be in the same school district (her perceived advantage). Well, the joke is on her.


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## Jellybeans

She loves taunting you. Don't bite. Show her you are the one in control.


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## aug

maxter said:


> STBXW called me on her way to work. She asked me if I signed a lease yet. I told her no and asked why hesitantly. She says she just drove by the half house I was looking at and the rental sign is gone. No $hit sherlock! I paid the security deposit last week. Anyway, I played completely dumb. I asked her if she was screwing with me to make me mad. She said no, the sign is gone, someone must have rented it. I replied back sharply "Well, that's just freakin great. Thanks alot!" and hung up on her. She didn't call back. She must be squirming with joy in her seat all the way to work thinking it's gone and now I won't be in the same school district (her perceived advantage). Well, the joke is on her.


I suppose technically it's true you haven't signed the lease yet, right?


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## maxter

Murphy's Law strikes again! STBXW had minivan in the shop for an oil change and to check the front brakes and serpentine belt. Both have been giving us problems, making noises for months. Back in June they told us the brakes would have to be completely rebuilt in the fall so this is something we both knew about well before I filed for D. Anyway, she asked me last night if I would pay for half of the repairs. I told her I would think about it.

Man, I would love to tell her its her van, her problem. But our circumstances aren't exactly clean cut. I'm still living there, sharing the bills. There has been no separation of marital property. Both our names are on the van title. But most of all my precious girls ride in that van 70% of the time! My gut is telling me "bite the bullet and help out for their safety". Also, I'm a handy-man, mr. fixit, so I could do 90% of the work and save us 1/2 the cost of having a repair shop do it.

What do you think? Should I go ahead and help out at least for my kids sake? I'm really torn because of this limbo-land situation I'm in at the moment.

BTW- the custody claim wasn't ready yesterday. It's supposed to be ready for me to sign today. Just waiting on the call from my attorney. If I sign today it will get filed today as well and she'll get served next week.


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## golfergirl

maxter said:


> Murphy's Law strikes again! STBXW had minivan in the shop for an oil change and to check the front brakes and serpentine belt. Both have been giving us problems, making noises for months. Back in June they told us the brakes would have to be completely rebuilt in the fall so this is something we both knew about well before I filed for D. Anyway, she asked me last night if I would pay for half of the repairs. I told her I would think about it.
> 
> Man, I would love to tell her its her van, her problem. But our circumstances aren't exactly clean cut. I'm still living there, sharing the bills. There has been no separation of marital property. Both our names are on the van title. But most of all my precious girls ride in that van 70% of the time! My gut is telling me "bite the bullet and help out for their safety". Also, I'm a handy-man, mr. fixit, so I could do 90% of the work and save us 1/2 the cost of having a repair shop do it.
> 
> What do you think? Should I go ahead and help out at least for my kids sake? I'm really torn because of this limbo-land situation I'm in at the moment.
> 
> BTW- the custody claim wasn't ready yesterday. It's supposed to be ready for me to sign today. Just waiting on the call from my attorney. If I sign today it will get filed today as well and she'll get served next week.


For the sake of your girls, help fix the van. If it's a Dodge like mine, there will be plenty more opportunity for her to fix on her own 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

golfergirl said:


> For the sake of your girls, help fix the van. If it's a Dodge like mine, there will be plenty more opportunity for her to fix on her own
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, that's the way I'm leaning. With kids binding us together for life, I guess I'll never be 100% free from her. It just sucks sometimes. I mean she'll never be doing something similar for me like home repairs or helping to pay for my car repairs even though I transport the girls too. Sighhhh. Just gotta keep my head held high and be the better person by doing the right thing. And you're right about future repairs. It's a 2001 T&C van. Lots of repair potential there.

Also, my attorney just called. I'm going to sign the custody complaint at lunch. It's go-time now! Yikes!


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## golfergirl

maxter said:


> Yeah, that's the way I'm leaning. With kids binding us together for life, I guess I'll never be 100% free from her. It just sucks sometimes. I mean she'll never be doing something similar for me like home repairs or helping to pay for my car repairs even though I transport the girls too. Sighhhh. Just gotta keep my head held high and be the better person by doing the right thing. And you're right about future repairs. It's a 2001 T&C van. Lots of repair potential there.
> 
> Also, my attorney just called. I'm going to sign the custody complaint at lunch. It's go-time now! Yikes!


Here's another thought. She sounds like the type to use that trump card forever - how about it's a 'loan'. It's done in good faith for safety of kids and taken off final settlement? Your did say lawyer said your responsibility ended right? Or what if you said that unless she failed to keep the vehicle she's driving your precious daughters in safe and reliable, she can't drive them or she's proving herself unfit or whatever?

Not sure which are workable, but some other options. I have feeling if you just do it, there will be further emergencies like food etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COGypsy

Or just document it and add it to the list of reasons why you should have the support/custody arrangements that you're proposing---she clearly can't afford to provide for the health and safety of your children on her own, even while you're still in the house. 

You can also point out anytime you want how nice you are to have helped her out :lol:


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## Jellybeans

I just want to say that divorce sucks. I am sorry this happened, Max.


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## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> I just want to say that divorce sucks. I am sorry this happened, Max.


:iagree:


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## maxter

I had a very horrible day yesterday. First I get a phone call at work from my cc company asking if I recently made changes to my account. Turns out someone stole my identity/hacked my online account, changed info to their address in another state and was ordering stuff online. Thank God the cc company fraud dept. noticed the changes and called me. So my old account is closed and I'm without a cc for 5 days.

Then during a rushed dash to get to my one daughter's guitar lesson, I ran by the bank to get some cash and drove away without my ATM card!!! Went back but it was gone. I hope the machine pulled it in after a period of time without action. Or else someone after me picked it up- hopefully they turn it in.

On top of all this I'm coming down with a nasty head cold and don't feel well today at all. I did get me lease to review and sign. So slight positive this morning so far. Hopefully the day improves. Although I have to spend all day Saturday repairing my STBXW's minivan. Ah, c'est la vie!


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## maxter

STBXW called me to go over a few things about our girls, new babysitter interviews and such. Somehow we got into a relationship discussion about the past. I asked her where did the woman I married go? What happened to her? To which she brutally flogged me with all my past transgressions, especially the drinking, put downs, and neglect. She told me right before the affair started that I had 'broken' her. She had no self esteem left, no emotion or feelings for me anymore.

So I asked her why she played me and faked it for the past 3 1/2 years. I told her she wasted years of our lives that we can't get back. We could be beyond this mess by now and on our way separately. She replied it wasn't wasted because she kept our family together for that time so our girls could have a normal life. Jeesh! How 'bout that?

I told her I hear what she's saying and fully understand her position but I wish she had been this clear about us many years ago. I told her I understand that how I treated her was horrible and that my epiphany came too late. She's broken, bitter, and angry at me for what I did and apparently isn't able to or doesn't want to work through it to overcome the pain I caused. I guess that's her choice to hold onto the past and dwell on it. 

I know she blames me for her affair, but still knowing the damage I inflicted on someone I was supposed to cherish and love till death do us part weighs heavily on my heart.

She asked when I'm going to start making support payments like we talked about. I told her not until I move out. She says she thinks it should be more. I asked her why 60% of our income isn't good enough and what was I supposed to live on? She just said she will talk with domestic relations to see what they say she'll get. 

She again asked me when I'm moving out. Very harsh and dry tone when she spoke. Perhaps my continued presence in the house is bothering her. She just wants me gone. I told her we still have the custody road block. She reitterated she will NOT agree to 50/50. She says it's too much too soon for the girls. I reminded her I would consider a phase in plan, but that she needs to agree to the end result being 50/50 whether its weeks or several months from now. She wouldn't commit though. She's trying to manipulate me into thinking we have some kind of custody plan without stating any details or locking anything in. She keeps saying eventually I would get more time with them. Eff that! See you in court B!tch.


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## maxter

Just got an email from my STBXW:

I'm sorry if I was harsh on the phone with you. It was not an easy morning with the girls. However, we did make the bus and it was good because they had fun being silly with all the kids. I don't want you to feel rushed. We need each other with the girls to balance thier schedules and needs. I know we need to work together for them. I think doing 50/50 is expecting way too much too soon.

Sometimes I don't think you realize how hard life was for me. Your moods were more sparadoic and depressive then you think. Your insults and detachment from me was crippling. What should have been a very happy time for us was clouded with your depression and drinking. And yes I would like to work together on the bills so we can make sure everything is taken care of.

Have a good day.

And there you have it. She was done with me years ago.


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## Jellybeans

The email doesn't say she was done years ago but I see how you feel, Max. If she truly felt that way the entire time, then yes, you are better off. 

You don't have to reply to her. To me it sounds like she's grasping at straws, still trying to rationalize her affair away which is why she keeps talking about how what YOU did caused her to want this. Notice she takes no responsibility ever. For anything. 



maxter said:


> Then during a rushed dash to get to my one daughter's guitar lesson, I ran by the bank to get some cash and drove away without my ATM card!!! Went back but it was gone. I hope the machine pulled it in after a period of time without action. Or else someone after me picked it up- hopefully they turn it in.


I hope you cancelled your ATM card, right??? Call the bank and do that STAT and explain what happened! 



maxter said:


> She reitterated she will NOT agree to 50/50.


Tough luck. She is acting like a selfish spoiled brat. Tell her, 'I am sorry you feel that way but if we can't agree, a judge will decide for us.' and then walk away. She can't be talking about 'too soon for the girls' when she was TOO SOON having sex with the OM in a hotel with the girls right there with her. WTF is her problem?

Grrr. You deserve better.


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## aug

Well, enough of blaming the affair and marriage breakdown on your drinking and moods.

There were lots of different avenue she could have taken. Having an affair was certainly not the right one.

She found a weak point and is exploiting it. Dont continually let her do it.


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## WhereAmI

You could "excuse" your drinking by listing circumstances that led you there. However, realizing that you are ultimately in control of your actions, you refuse to do so. She has yet to accept that her affair rests ONLY on her shoulders. Have you pointed out her hypocrisy? Exposing the children to her affair partner went way beyond anything you've ever done. 

Her lines about 50/50 being too soon are BS. I'm sure the children would prefer time with you over staying in their house and missing daddy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TGTLTBTS

I have read your threads and I am sorry you are in such a situation, but I was wondering if your girls have been asking any other questions or if you or your STBX have decided when you were going to talk to them about what is happening? I have triplets about the same age and am curious about how much they have picked up on their own?? Have you seen any negative affects on the girls as of yet? I constantly worry about what my actions are going to do to my kids And don't let it cross your minds.....my kids have absolutely NOTHING to do with our marriage and the state it is currently in....it was not normal before they were conceived unfortunately. They have been a blessing and a joy for both of us.


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## golfergirl

WhereAmI said:


> You could "excuse" your drinking by listing circumstances that led you there. However, realizing that you are ultimately in control of your actions, you refuse to do so. She has yet to accept that her affair rests ONLY on her shoulders. Have you pointed out her hypocrisy? Exposing the children to her affair partner went way beyond anything you've ever done.
> 
> Her lines about 50/50 being too soon are BS. I'm sure the children would prefer time with you over staying in their house and missing daddy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


it's not like you're an absentee father. It's not like you're in some other county - different school - different friends. I think the adjustment of not having dad there will be the problem not the time away from mom. It's easy. Get them excited about decorating new house etc. New routines and rituals. That's what gets past the phasing in part. Friday is homemade pizza and movie night - etc. I wouldn't even agree to phasing in - it's for HER benefit and tricks not the girls. Easy test - good for girls - hey go for it - other than than I guess Mommy needs to adjust.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

golfergirl said:


> Easy test - good for girls - hey go for it - other than than I guess Mommy needs to adjust.


:iagree:


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## maxter

I think I'm on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Feel like I'm going to throw up. I'm shaking all over. Just took an anti-anxiety pill to try and calm down. I just learned my STBXW dropped the girls off at school then drove 2 1/2hrs to meet the OM for the day. I think they went to his new place, not sure. She came home at exactly the right time as if she were coming from work.

OMG I'M FREAKING OUT!!! Why is that? I was doing so well moving on, filing for D, filing for custody. I even signed the lease to my new place today. But this is like D day all over. I have intense feelings of betrayal, my chest hurts. Why can't I let go of her after what she's done to me? I DON'T WANT THIS DIVORCE!!! But I have no choice left but to continue and come out better off on the other side. Someone please tell me it gets better somewhere down the road.

She told him she's not going to accept 50/50 custody. He must have asked if I had moved out because she told him that I wouldn't leave until custody was settled. She told him that I was talking more with her. Which is true to some extent because we're talking more often about the girls and their activities. I have not been making small talk at all.

People liken this experience to a death. Well, I'm here to tell you I've experience many deaths of close relatives but it was nothing like this. This nightmare just keeps going on and on without seeming end. I don't know if I can lay in the same bed tonight with her. My emotions are just overwhelming at the moment. Thank god I have a IC meeting tomorrow. I definitely need it after this day.


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## hesnothappy

Go for a walk (somewhere safe) or just a drive. It is very much like a death...just like a death happens everyday. Do something to take your mind off what you think happened today, it is never as good as what we imagined. That is not your concern now, you will do better by concentrating on what you will be doing in your new place and how you will decorate it. Places you and your girls can go. Move forward, don't be a prisoner to the past. I will be praying for you, God be a comforter to Maxter (you know his real name ;o)


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## golfergirl

maxter said:


> I think I'm on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Feel like I'm going to throw up. I'm shaking all over. Just took an anti-anxiety pill to try and calm down. I just learned my STBXW dropped the girls off at school then drove 2 1/2hrs to meet the OM for the day. I think they went to his new place, not sure. She came home at exactly the right time as if she were coming from work.
> 
> OMG I'M FREAKING OUT!!! Why is that? I was doing so well moving on, filing for D, filing for custody. I even signed the lease to my new place today. But this is like D day all over. I have intense feelings of betrayal, my chest hurts. Why can't I let go of her after what she's done to me? I DON'T WANT THIS DIVORCE!!! But I have no choice left but to continue and come out better off on the other side. Someone please tell me it gets better somewhere down the road.
> 
> She told him she's not going to accept 50/50 custody. He must have asked if I had moved out because she told him that I wouldn't leave until custody was settled. She told him that I was talking more with her. Which is true to some extent because we're talking more often about the girls and their activities. I have not been making small talk at all.
> 
> People liken this experience to a death. Well, I'm here to tell you I've experience many deaths of close relatives but it was nothing like this. This nightmare just keeps going on and on without seeming end. I don't know if I can lay in the same bed tonight with her. My emotions are just overwhelming at the moment. Thank god I have a IC meeting tomorrow. I definitely need it after this day.


Make your plans and go for the jugular. I'm sorry she's heartless and that it's hurting you so bad!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Tell her to leave the bed since she chose to go have sex with today. It is beyond acceptable that she can cheat and ome home to your bed.

Maybe you can't kick her out of the house, but she can sleep on the couch.

Call your lawyer tomorrow and tell him to takeoff the gloves. No holds bared.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## krismimo

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: Like I said it will get worse, far more worse until it gets better, I wouldn't be suprised that she saw the OM b/c she resents you staying there and she already more than likely considered the marriage over. See the problem when a loved one and or spouse cheats and the latter decides to stay in the home no matter what the reason is whereas finances, custody, property you have this long passive aggressive, battle up ahead, it is bad enough to deal with this situation as it is, not alone living with the person (BTW been there done that.) while all this is happening and you expect to stay "normal" I think not. All I'm saying is you have few options you can stay and be hurt, you could kick her out, or you can move out. And I'm sorry this situation hurts your family more than helps, you need to get yourself together and take action like kicking her behind out. People will treat you the way you teach them to treat you, why would you allow her to stay with you in the same house hold while she f*** some other guy while going through this custody battle and divorce proceedings?
She is having her cake and eating it, think about it why would she NOT be doing it? Your helping her out, she still has her girls, her home and the OM at least for the next couple of months. This is just getting started. Time to wake up and stop staying because it is convienient.


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## maxter

krismimo said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: Like I said it will get worse, far more worse until it gets better, I wouldn't be suprised that she saw the OM b/c she resents you staying there and she already more than likely considered the marriage over. See the problem when a loved one and or spouse cheats and the latter decides to stay in the home no matter what the reason is whereas finances, custody, property you have this long passive aggressive, battle up ahead, it is bad enough to deal with this situation as it is, not alone living with the person (BTW been there done that.) while all this is happening and you expect to stay "normal" I think not. All I'm saying is you have few options you can stay and be hurt, you could kick her out, or you can move out. And I'm sorry this situation hurts your family more than helps, you need to get yourself together and take action like kicking her behind out. People will treat you the way you teach them to treat you, why would you allow her to stay with you in the same house hold while she f*** some other guy while going through this custody battle and divorce proceedings?
> She is having her cake and eating it, think about it why would she NOT be doing it? Your helping her out, she still has her girls, her home and the OM at least for the next couple of months. This is just getting started. Time to wake up and stop staying because it is convienient.


I can't kick her out, legally. Due to both names being on the deed and our state laws, she has equal right to stay in the marital home just as I do. The law doesn't look at other factors like infidelity. I could ask (and have in the recent past) but she simply says "I'm not going anywhere, you go". She knows it's painful for me and maybe gets some kind of sick satisfaction from it while cake eating at the same time.

I would desperately like to move out, but my attorney advised me not to or my position with custody can be harmed. I can't get a temporary custody order because there is no impending physical harm to the kids. The only potential is emotional harm, but that would only happen if she or I loose control and have a huge blowout. And I can't allow that to happen or I'll likely end up in jail.

I'm just plain stuck! And she's pulling the strings- sort of. Maybe more like tugging on them. I mean I'm still pushing ahead with D and custody but it's moving too slowly for my liking. She did tell the OM that the place I was looking at got rented out and she was thankful because it helps her if I'm not in the same school district. I wonder what her reaction will be when I start packing up incidentals and taking them over to my new place this weekend? I can move maybe 90% of my stuff into the new place and still live at home for now. All I need are my clothes and toiletries-like staying in a hotel each night. Uhg! That makes my stomach knot up thinking about it.


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## maxter

I just sent the following email to my STBXW about going away yesterday without telling anyone.

Please notify me (preferably in advance) the next time you are going to be out of town for an extended period, whether it's several hours or a whole day, so that I'm aware that you're unavailable in case of an emergency concerning our children. It would not have been possible for you to quickly respond to a problem with the girls yesterday since you were 2 1/2 hours away visiting your affair partner. Thank you.

I will be adding this incident to my Journal. It may be useful during the custody hearing. What a mess our life has become.


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## Sod

It really sucks what she is doing to you. There is obviously no rationalized way to get through to her the impact her behavior is having on you and indirectly your kids. I feel for you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

Sod said:


> It really sucks what she is doing to you. There is obviously no rationalized way to get through to her the impact her behavior is having on you and indirectly your kids. I feel for you!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Sod. Appreciate the support. She was never a very rational thinker to begin with. She acts and reacts on her emotions mainly. And with the FOG moving back in and thickening, it's only going to get worse. I keep making these small steps towards creating a new life for myself and that's good. But what I really need is one big step to happen to give me a sense of release & relief from this living hell I'm in right now.


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## Unsure in Seattle

maxter said:


> I just sent the following email to my STBXW about going away yesterday without telling anyone.
> 
> Please notify me (preferably in advance) the next time you are going to be out of town for an extended period, whether it's several hours or a whole day, so that I'm aware that you're unavailable in case of an emergency concerning our children. It would not have been possible for you to quickly respond to a problem with the girls yesterday since you were 2 1/2 hours away visiting your affair partner. Thank you.
> 
> I will be adding this incident to my Journal. It may be useful during the custody hearing. What a mess our life has become.



Good for you- and it may indeed be useful for custody.


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## Lostouthere

Well Im just waiting for the judge to sign the paper and Im officially divorced a bittersweet end I guess. Da*n shame it had to go this way and for her to turn out to be like she it but oh well.


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## maxter

Lostouthere said:


> Well Im just waiting for the judge to sign the paper and Im officially divorced a bittersweet end I guess. Da*n shame it had to go this way and for her to turn out to be like she it but oh well.


Lost- Glad to see your situation coming to some kind of conclusion. But also sad for you, because I understand the feeling of loss this must bring on. Hopefully you can get some kind of closure and move on with your new life. Best of luck!


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## HurtinginTN

Brother, I know just how you feel. I was doing well with moving on a few weeks ago. Then, my wife drove about the same distance to spend the weekend with her affair partner. All those feelings you described rushed back over me like it was D-day all over again. Actually, D-day on steroids. That has been about 3 weeks ago. These past few days have been good days, unexplainably good days. They will come for you as well.

I can't imaging sleeping in the same room, much less the same bed after a trip to OM. You may consider pulling a Shamwow and testing her panties for additional proof.


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## maxter

HurtinginTN said:


> You may consider pulling a Shamwow and testing her panties for additional proof.


I've thought of doing that at times. I was outside mowing the grass when she pulled in pretending to be coming from work. I didn't go into the house for about 15mins. By the time I got in she had already started washing her laundry. Blah!


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## krismimo

WOW I'm sorry to hear that it is tough try to hang in there!


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## maxter

The STBXW is really pissed off. She's been tossing verbal jabs and sarcasm all last night and this morning. Seems that my announcement yesterday that we are going to court over custody has rattled her. She's even tried to provoke a reaction out of me with some critical & biting remarks. I just brush them off and chant in my head "I WILL MAKE IT!"

So far, no custody papers have come in the mail. I keep checking so I know when she gets them I can expect the worst from her.

I got an email this week, out of the clear blue sky, from my Best Man in FL. Very strange that he contacted me in the middle of all this mess. We haven't communicated directly for a couple of years. I sent him a Christmas card last year with my email addy and....nothing. I thought "oh well, guess he's busy or moved". Then his email comes in to say hi, how ya doing. Turns out he's in a pickle too with his gf. They've been together 14mos and were getting serious heading toward engagement. Then all of the sudden she breaks off all contact and texts him the next day saying "She needed space." So we're both leaning on each other's shoulder right now which is good. I don't have any close friends around me now. I put all my time and energy into my family and friendships went by the wayside over the years.


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## HurtinginTN

maxter said:


> I put all my time and energy into my family and friendships went by the wayside over the years.


Me, too. You have friends here. We're pulling for you.


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## maxter

UPDATE-
Still no custody papers in the mail yet. WTH? I gotta call my attorney and see what's up with that.

I get the keys to my new place tomorrow! Yay! Happy and sad about it at the same time. My parents have been wonderfully supportive. They are giving me a bunch of furniture pieces they don't need which is a big help. I'm getting a console TV (25"), large TV (27"), small TV (20"), small entertainment center, small couch, an upholstered chair, small shelving unit, some lamps, a magazine stand/lamp combo, a complete patio set w/table, 4 chairs, cushions, and umbrella, plus a bunch of misc stuff. It'll be sparse at first but gotta start somewhere.

We also got an escrow refund from our mortgage company today. It's in both our names so it has to either be signed by both of us or deposited to our joint checking. I feel like depositing it and taking the money back out for me since she's hoarding all the cash from her 2nd part-time job (cleans an office every Wedn). Or I could divide it up based on our percentage of income that contributes to paying the mortgage (25% for her, 75% for me). But I won't do that. I'll split it 50/50. I don't want to get into that kind of petty lashing out behavior which only provokes and invites retaliation.


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## golfergirl

maxter said:


> UPDATE-
> Still no custody papers in the mail yet. WTH? I gotta call my attorney and see what's up with that.
> 
> I get the keys to my new place tomorrow! Yay! Happy and sad about it at the same time. My parents have been wonderfully supportive. They are giving me a bunch of furniture pieces they don't need which is a big help. I'm getting a console TV (25"), large TV (27"), small TV (20"), small entertainment center, small couch, an upholstered chair, small shelving unit, some lamps, a magazine stand/lamp combo, a complete patio set w/table, 4 chairs, cushions, and umbrella, plus a bunch of misc stuff. It'll be sparse at first but gotta start somewhere.
> 
> We also got an escrow refund from our mortgage company today. It's in both our names so it has to either be signed by both of us or deposited to our joint checking. I feel like depositing it and taking the money back out for me since she's hoarding all the cash from her 2nd part-time job (cleans an office every Wedn). Or I could divide it up based on our percentage of income that contributes to paying the mortgage (25% for her, 75% for me). But I won't do that. I'll split it 50/50. I don't want to get into that kind of petty lashing out behavior which only provokes and invites retaliation.


Eventually are you not entitled to household furniture?
The waiting grrrr!
That is decent to split 50/50 - if only STBXW was smart enough to appreciate that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

maxter said:


> I get the keys to my new place tomorrow! Yay! Happy and sad about it at the same time. My parents have been wonderfully supportive. They are giving me a bunch of furniture pieces they don't need which is a big help. I'm getting a console TV (25"), large TV (27"), small TV (20"), small entertainment center, small couch, an upholstered chair, small shelving unit, some lamps, a magazine stand/lamp combo, a complete patio set w/table, 4 chairs, cushions, and *umbrella*, plus a bunch of misc stuff.


..."and umbrella"...

That made me laugh.  Sounds like your parents are hooking you up. Awesome! 

Glad to hear you got the keys and the refund. Definitely get on your lawyer about all the paperwork!


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## HurtinginTN

Congrats on your own place. I know the mixed feelings. At least you won't have to worry about who does the dishes now. lol I had a sink full of dirty dishes waiting for me last night when we switched. Funny, they were still there when I left this morning. lol

That is great that your parents are giving you stuff. I have had several friends mention items they need to get rid of. I'll be furnished whenever I get my own place. It won't match or anything, but like you said, you have to start somewhere.


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## aug

When you're at your new place, dont park your car in front. She'll find out later in due time.


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## maxter

My new place has a garage. so I can park inside and she can't see my car. Unless she sees me coming or going. It's gonna come out sooner or later. I'd prefer she find out in the custody conference when she thinks I don't even have a place for the girls to stay. And then I announce I have the perfect place, right in the same school district, 1/2mi from our house and show some nice pictures of it to the judge.

I called my attorney today to ask about the custody papers. The courthouse took a week to process them and setup the conference. It's Oct 21 at 1pm. So minimum three more weeks in the same house with her. I hope we reach an agreement that day so I can move out and start moving on with my life.


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## maxter

STBXW had to go into work early today. Some kind of emergency preparedness drill at the hospital. So I'm working from home (yeah right, too much time on TAM) and getting the girls off to school.

Last week my cc company called me with a concern. Some kind of breach in security so they closed my old account and opened a new one. The sent me a new card in the mail. I haven't received it yet so I'm wondering where the heck is it? Last night I went to get something out of the minivan and there sticking out from under her jacked is a plain white envelope. So of course I look. It's my new cc! And it's opened. I just put it back for now. I wonder if she'll even give it to me now that she's illegally opened my personal mail? Well, guess I can't say too much because I open her cc bill when it comes. Not to snoop, but because I pay all the bills and need to make the payment for her.

She stops at the post office twice a day. I stop at lunch time myself. So she must have picked it up in one of her frequent stops. I'll give it a day or so and then maybe make a general inquiry if she's seen any letters for me lately. I'm sure she thought it was something legal or of importance to have opened it. There were no markings on the outside so she knew it was not a utility bill or anything typical. What a pain!


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## golfergirl

maxter said:


> STBXW had to go into work early today. Some kind of emergency preparedness drill at the hospital. So I'm working from home (yeah right, too much time on TAM) and getting the girls off to school.
> 
> Last week my cc company called me with a concern. Some kind of breach in security so they closed my old account and opened a new one. The sent me a new card in the mail. I haven't received it yet so I'm wondering where the heck is it? Last night I went to get something out of the minivan and there sticking out from under her jacked is a plain white envelope. So of course I look. It's my new cc! And it's opened. I just put it back for now. I wonder if she'll even give it to me now that she's illegally opened my personal mail? Well, guess I can't say too much because I open her cc bill when it comes. Not to snoop, but because I pay all the bills and need to make the payment for her.
> 
> She stops at the post office twice a day. I stop at lunch time myself. So she must have picked it up in one of her frequent stops. I'll give it a day or so and then maybe make a general inquiry if she's seen any letters for me lately. I'm sure she thought it was something legal or of importance to have opened it. There were no markings on the outside so she knew it was not a utility bill or anything typical. What a pain!


I'd take it and watch her squirm. See if she brings it up on her own. Has she changed or have you always just put up with this as she isn't a very nice person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

golfergirl said:


> I'd take it and watch her squirm. See if she brings it up on her own. Has she changed or have you always just put up with this as she isn't a very nice person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's exactly what my dad said. Go over to her work, take the envelope out of the van and say nothing. Heck I could even leave the doors unlocked to make her think she forgot to lock them. Really mess with her mind!

She has abandonment and security issues from childhood. She was never abandoned physically. I think it stems from the emotional abandonment by her mom who never supported her or protected her from her dad's abuse. Just a guess.

Anyway, after we first got married, when I would come home from short business trips (couple days) she would go through my wallet and briefcase. I caught her a few times and asked what she's looking for. She just said she's checking. I told her go ahead and check. I haven't done anything and there's nothing to hide. She only did that for a few years and I think she stopped after awhile.

So her doing this recently doesn't surprise me at all. She's trying to keep tabs on what I'm doing because I don't tell her anything about where I'm going when I leave the house some nights or who I'm talking to on my cell at night (usually my parents). I'm sure my activities look very suspicious to her.


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## Jellybeans

Why didn't you just take your credit card??? I would have. It's yours.


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## krismimo

I agree with Golfer Girl and Jelly Beans, no offense but stop making excuses for her, I know you still love her I get it. But you two are at a odd place right now she didn't tell you right away, keeping more secrets from you. If she is capable of trying to keep an affair from you then what makes you think that she not only will take your card and possibly try to use it? 

I mean your not trying to be mean or being malicious just because you can, she took something that belong to you plain and simple. And I bet if you did the exact same thing to her she would go ape s**** on you and give you a hard time. 

Go right now while you can take your card and leave the door unlock besides her just being truthful right now is an indicator of where her head is. Look at it this way, You can really trust her as it is and if she is not really being forthcoming about basic and simple information then she is showing her true colors, expect her to be like this in court and everything else when it comes to resolving confrontations.


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## Sod

YOUR card.....YOUR liability if she decides to go shopping and denies it. If I was you, I would call your credit card company and make sure that the card cannot be activated without your specific approval (new one time password) if you want to see how this plays out. 

Trust me, this is what I do for a living and I have seen all kinds of fraud. If she uses the card (if its solely yours) then you will be liable for the charges as its a family member and they wont work with you unless you press charges criminally.


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## maxter

I removed my card from her lunch pouch last night. She hasn't noticed yet. She did pick up the custody complaint from our PO Box yesterday so she's been served. When I came home from Lowes, right after she had gotten home, she gave me the most evil, piercing stare I think I've ever seen. Kinda scary.

So I left and went to buy groceries. When I got back she was busy rearranging the girls closets to switch out their summer clothes for winter ones. So I made supper for the girls since she didn't start anything and it was already 6:30pm. After I got them fed and cleaned up, she finished the girls closets and came out into the kitchen. She started talking to me about our dinner. she had bought seafood and asked me if I wanted some. I said OK, and she cooked dinner for both of us. We ate separately, but did talk about misc stuff last night. I'm still alive so I guess the food wasn't poisoned or anything!

Today we took the girls to church for a sexuality seminar that is christian based. It was a good program. Nothing to explicit, just basics of where babies come from, how they grow in the womb, about the beginning of adolescence and body changes and the role God plays in all of this. Part of the program was very emotional for me because they talked about God, marriage, sex only when a husband & wife love each other and want to have children. The morality of sex within marriage and so on. You get the picture.

I thought I was going to loose it a few times as we looked at the slide show and read all about this stuff and all I could think of was how my W had betrayed her religion, her self, her husband, and her family. I thought I saw her holding back some tears a few times. Sometimes I wish a lightning bolt from God would come down and strike some sense & rational thought into her. All the reasons why what she is doing is a sin & immoral were right there in front of her on the screen in black and white print. Sooo sad waywards cannot comprehend this.


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## aug

maxter said:


> She started talking to me about our dinner. she had bought seafood and asked me if I wanted some. I said OK, and she cooked dinner for both of us. We ate separately, but did talk about misc stuff last night. * I'm still alive so I guess the food wasn't poisoned or anything!*



Good. Glad to see you made it.


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## maxter

LONG UPDATE- drama filled Sunday

Sorry this is so long. I tried to capture the essence of what transpired, but even so this is only pieces of the drama I lived through yesterday.

STBXW came down to the family room where I was on the computer. She sat down and I could see she was upset. We started talking about our relationship, past issues and such. The conversation went round in circles like it always does, rehashing the same old faults and mistakes we both made. Eventually she brings up custody and asks a question in such a way that made me think she had already picked up the custody complaint from our PO Box. Turns out she hadn’t picked them up yet. She asked if I had filed. I told her yes, that she gave me no choice, she was being unreasonable and stonewalling me and I'm not going to sit around here waiting on her. I have a new life to start. She became very upset. She asked what type partial or full custody. I told her full custody at which point she freaked out, yelling at me, telling me to get out of the house, you can’t stay here, etc. She tried to blame me saying I was doing this ‘to’ our children I was the one hurting them. I stayed cool, calm, and collected the whole time. I responded sensibly and matter of factly to her questions and corrected her when she tried to blame me and tell me I'm doing stuff to my children. The discussion continued with her becoming very emotional and distraught to the point she needed to leave and go back upstairs. She went up to our bedroom and cried. Our girls noticed this and started to become upset too. So I told the girls to come into the living room so we could talk and I would answer any questions they have. 

STBXW hears me talking to them and storms out of the bedroom. She's in a really bad mood and blurts out "Daddy is going to take you girls away from me". Both girls react with distress. I jump up from the couch and go to her telling her to stop in a hushed tone “Stop telling lies and scaring them.” I whisper loudly. The girls hover around us. She keeps on "yeah, daddy thinks I'm a terrible mom and wants to take you away" she says. I step in between her and the girls, look her directly in the eye and tell her she needs to stop right now and get control of herself. She does manage to reign in her emotions a bit and sits down on the couch. I go into the bedroom to think about what to do next now that she’s trying to alienate them from me. I hear them talking in the living room. The girls are upset, my one daughter (the mommy's girl) comes in to tell me off. She tells me that I shouldn't tell mommy things like that to upset her. I tell her that she doesn't fully understand the situation and doesn't have all the facts. I tell her that I didn't say that to mommy at all and she misunderstands what is going on.

We all gather back in the living room to talk. STBXW blurts out again "Why not tell them the truth? Tell them you filed for divorce!" This really scares the girls. They ask me if I want a divorce to which I respond "No". They ask me if I wished we would get a divorce to which I respond "No". I tell them I don't want nor wish for a divorce but sometimes we must do things we don't want to do so that life can be better afterwards. I asked them if they like doing homework or practicing guitar. They said no, not always. I said divorce is like that too. Sometimes we don't really want it, but in the end doing it will be better for all of us. 

Both girls state adamantly "You cannot get divorced! We are supposed to be together as a family." My other daughter (daddy's girl) declares "You two are NOT getting divorced!" As if just by saying it she can stop it. Mommy says it won't happen for a long while. I agree and tell the girls that it takes a while, it's a long process. One daughter has had enough and leaves the room, goes to her bedroom. The other one is upset and doesn't know what to do with herself, she goes into the kitchen for one of her toys.

As the girls are getting ready for bed, they start to argue. So I go into the one daughter's room to see what the problem is and they are fighting about what clothes to wear to school tomorrow. I break them up and tell mommy's girl to go to bed. She becomes defiant, stands her ground and backtalks to me with a smart mouth. Something about what she thinks I said to mommy about custody and how I shouldn’t do that. I told her she was out of line and to go to her room. She goes to mommy because she typically ‘protects’ her from punishments and lets her off easier. I follow behind her as she approaches mommy, take her by the shoulders and turn her around toward her room telling her "I told you to go to your room for punishment". Mommy freaks out, yells at me to take my hands off her as if I’m hurting her which I’m not. I’m just redirecting her to her bedroom. I walk her over to her room as mommy rushes up behind me telling me to “Leave her alone. Get away from her”. I sit daughter on her bed and tell her in a stern voice that her comment was unacceptable and disrespectful and I expect her not to disrespect me like that again. By now mommy has pushed her way past me and is sitting on the bed holding daughter. I’m done with my reprimand so I simply leave the room.

Eventually we get them into bed. I lay with them for a few minutes each. They don't want to talk. Instead they want to read me a story. So I let them. STBXW gets a quick shower while I'm laying with them. After she gets out I go to watch some TV after all this turmoil. STBXW gets the girls up, takes them into our bedroom and locks the door. They sleep with her overnight. I’m locked out. I don't say anything or do anything. I just accept that they need that time together and I sleep in my daughters bed.

An hour later after the girls fall asleep, and I'm almost alseep, STBXW comes over, flips on the lights and sits on the bed. She tries every which way to persuade me I need to stay and not separate. She says I need to call off the custody hearing. I need to do this for the girls. She asks why would I do this to our children. It's going to scar them for life. I need to think about them. I'm being vindictive and many other character assassinations. The whole time I listen, respond with fact when necessary and stay calm. I show no emotion or anger. I tell her I give her many chances all the time and she doesn't accept them. I gave her 3 1/2 years to came back into the marriage. She chose to betray her family instead. I tell her I tried to talk with her for weeks about custody and she hardened her position (moms get the kids and the house- dads get weekends). She left me no choice but to proceed with filing. She tells me I'll never get full custody because shes a good mom. She interrogates me about what my evidence against her is, what I'm planning. I tell her NOTHING. She says I want this to get nasty. She says I'm going to expose all her faults for the world to see. I don't respond or give in to her emotional terrorism. Eventually she sees that I won't succumb to her tactics and leaves. What a night!!!


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## golfergirl

I would consider telling STBXW if she continues stunts like this you will tell God and the world (including children) that mommy chose divorce when she chose her boyfriend. What a piece of crap she is. She can't disrupt your kids like that on purpose and make scenes and lies and call them a good mother. She's damaging and manipulative and she sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unsure in Seattle

Good for you on standing your ground.


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## SadSamIAm

I applaud you for keeping your head. 

I am sure that if I was in that circumstance, I would have been talking to my children about what they learned in Church about Sexuality between Husband and Wife and how their mother has chosen to not do this. I would have told them that you have filed for divorce because of the boyfriend.


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## golfergirl

SadSamIAm said:


> I applaud you for keeping your head.
> 
> I am sure that if I was in that circumstance, I would have been talking to my children about what they learned in Church about Sexuality between Husband and Wife and how their mother has chosen to not do this. I would have told them that you have filed for divorce because of the boyfriend.


I'm normally an advocate of not putting kids in the middle but I agree with above. There's no need to get beaten down like the bad guy and she doesn't play fair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadSamIAm

She is putting the kids in the middle. She is refusing to take ownership of what is happening.

The kids seem young, but I think he is going to have to tell them what is truly going on before she poisons them against him.


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## Shaggy

Maxter good job standing your ground.

It's un believable that she was with him just last week and she still thinks you can R? Wow.

You seriously need to rethink exposing to the kids. No need to tell them about the sex, but they need to know this is because mommy has a boyfriend. Stop letting her hide behind her huge lie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

Our girls are still young. They will be 10 in Jan. I'm not so sure telling them that mommy has a boyfriend and she chose him over us is the right thing to do at their age. If they were older, like 12, I would be more inclined to discuss details. I don't know on this one. I'll have to think about it. I know she's going to demonize me and try to turn them against me. But I don't want to join in that type of behavior even if what I tell them is true. A 10 year old shouldn't have to deal with the images of mom with another man on top of our coming separation, divorce, and custody situation. Like I said, I'll need to think about this alot more.

During our discussions I mentioned that she was just with him last week bangin his brains out. She says "Oh is that so. How do you know? Where's your proof? Are you tracking me? Did you hire a PI?" All I said back to her was I know what you did and I have all I need to support my custody case. Now she's really freaking out about that. She doesn't know what I have or don't have. I thought about aluding to a PI, video & audio of their encounter but decided against it. I don't want to blather about stuff I don't have or cannot back up. Get this- she says nothing is going on with them anymore. She only saw him to break it off. He's not interested in a relationship therefore she has nobody. ARE YOU FREAKIN' KIDDING ME?! Same old crap she's told me many times before when I busted her. Uhg!


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## Shaggy

Do you know how she has been contacting him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aug

I think the kids will understand the basic concept of mommy having a boyfriend and a marriage does not work when mommy already has a boyfriend.

You'll need to tell the kids this so that they can have the truth and learn how to process it. Otherwise, in their mind they'll get muddled and go on the wrong track in dealing with this.

Most kids after 8 or 9 years old understand the concept of faithfulness in a marriage and a wife is not to have a boyfriend on the side. Simple, simple concepts kids already know about.


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## SadSamIAm

It is harmful for your children to think you are abandoning their mother. Who knows what they are thinking of you. 

It is harmful for your children to hear that their mother has a boyfriend.

Neither is good, but one of them is the truth. I would tell them the truth. 

Don't need to get into details about anyone getting banged. Just that their mother has chosen to be with another man and that is why the marriage is ending. Then let their mother deal with explaining her actions to them.


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## Almostrecovered

maybe HiT can chime in here as his kids are also young and he had to explain to them about their mother's affair


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## maxter

Shaggy said:


> Do you know how she has been contacting him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You name it she's got it. Work email. Gmail account. cell phone, texting, chat, the works. She has so many avenues available to her now I can't even keep up with it. As much as I don't want this divorce and breakup of our family, there is no way I can even conceive of R anymore. I cannot trust her and to attempt to monitor & verify NC would drive me insane.


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## Eli-Zor

> It is harmful for your children to hear that their mother has a boyfriend.
> 
> Neither is good, but one of them is the truth. I would tell them the truth.


There is never a good time , the longer you wait the worse it will be for you. Tell them in your words how it is wrong for their mother to have a boyfriend . They are not stupid they know , they hear things they observe. It is better for you to explain the OM and name him then for them to meet him and your wife gaslight you in front of them . By you telling them the truth you set an example and ensure they know you are there for them and love them . 

Reading what your wife is doing now she will try demonise you and will do everything to alienate your children from you


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## Unsure in Seattle

I think the situation has deteriorated (in the painting of YOU as being the cause of all of this) to where you probably need to say something.


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## maxter

More drama- STBXW emailed me this question:

Can I use your credit card and then you can have the money when you sell the Buick. I will sign something if you want me to, agreeing to pay you when we have the money.

SHE'S NUTS! No way am I doing that. Earlier today I emailed her back after she started complaining about how bad she has it and all. Here is what I sent her:

Woah is me. Quit complaining about how bad you have it and pull yourself up! You need to address these issues in new and creative ways. The days where you simply relied on our combined financial power are over.

Sell something (I am). Pawn your ring. Beg or borrow from your family. Figure it out. That's what I'm doing.

I'm not sure how to respond to her question. Thinking about a simple "No." and leave it at that.


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## Almostrecovered

well now you know what plans she had for the credit card in her car, good thing you got it out


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## golfergirl

Almostrecovered said:


> well now you know what plans she had for the credit card in her car, good thing you got it out


I'd say you cancelled it because it never came. And I'd put an extra credit watch or password on it or get PO Box and cancel it and get new one sent to you there. PO Box is probably a good idea to start funneling mail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Sending " no" is the best response.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zzyzx

You'll need to make sure she cannot use your name to apply for credit cards behind your back. You've done the separate accounts thing, hope that is enough. Would not hurt to set up verbal passwords with each of your financial service providers, banks, credit cards, etc., then she can't call as you and get a card that way.


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## maxter

This morning after I got dressed for work and was leaving the bedroom, STBXW rolled over in bed and asked me if I had thought about her request from yesterday. I asked her which one. She says "Can I use your cc for retainer and then I'll pay you back when the car sells." I tell her I'm still thinking about it. She says she needs an answer because she has an appointment today at 1:30pm. I tell her it really doesn't matter then because my account was comprimised and closed out and I never received my replacement card  She immediately jumps out of bed saying "Wait a minute, I think I have it. I picked up the mail the other day". She runs to her lunch pouch were she was carrying it around for a days and it's not there of course because I removed it. Now she's worried. She says "Darn, I though it was in here, maybe I confused it with the Kohls card." She runs down to her van to check there- nothing of course. She dumps her purse out all over the kitchen counter- nothing there either. Hmmm, wonder what happened to it? She tells me she must have been mistaken and it was actually the kohls card she was thinking of.

Then she says what should I do? I tell her to use her 'emergency cc'. She reminds me it's maxed out and over the limit. I asked her who's fault is that? She grimmaces at me. I tell her this seems like a real emergency to me rather than all the stuff you've charge on it since you got it. She blurts back "This isn't fair!". I tell her this situation is an inconvenience. What is not fair is what she has done to our family. At that point I walk away and leave for work.

She texts me at work asking where I put the $100 initial consult fee that I refunded her yesterday (as I had promised way back when and forgot about). I gave her all the info yesterday in an email. But anyway I tell her it's going to checking but won't show up till thursday. I tell her she has a chunk of $$ in savings (that I helped to put there for her and build up alittle) that will cover half the retainer and that she should use that. No response from her on that one. Then she texts me she's decided to go up to her mom's this Saturday overnight. I ask her why because she typically only makes trips up for special occasions like birthdays, holidays and such. She tells me it's because her mom misses her grandchildren and wants to see them (gimme a break). Her mom loves our girls but she's not intimately involved in their lives or activities. She's 87 years old and has many, many grandchildren, nieces, nephews, grandnieces/nephews- too many to count really. Basically STBXW wants to get away from me (who could blame her under the circumstances?). That's OK with me. I'll have time to move stuff into my new place!


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## Shaggy

Sounds like she is setting up another booty call with the kids in tow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

Shaggy said:


> Sounds like she is setting up another booty call with the kids in tow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or a loan from mom. Maybe if she'd quit with road trips and hotels she'd have enough money for retainer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

golfergirl said:


> Or a loan from mom. Maybe if she'd quit with road trips and hotels she'd have enough money for retainer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Watching her scramble for cc would be amusing 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

golfergirl said:


> Watching her scramble for cc would be amusing
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, it was. Too bad it only lasted a couple minutes.


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## maxter

I replied to her email request from yesterday asking to use my cc to pay her attorney retainer. I simply stated, "The answer is, no."

To which she replied:

"Ok, I understand. Thanks for getting back to me.
I will be without council."

Boo Effing Hoo! Maybe she'll get up the nerve to ask her mom for some money when she visits this weekend.

I really don't think she's planning to meet the OM. Just my gut feeling. I can easily check by calling her mom's house to talk with my girls. And since she's leaving after we attend a local festival with her sister, there's a good chance her sister and nephew will be traveling with her. They do that alot when going up to her mom's house to save on gas and so the kids can play together in the van.


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## Unsure in Seattle

She really doesn't understnad, does she? Why the hell would you pay for her to get lawyer up? Get the OM to do it.

I hope she's telling you the truth re: this weekend. I also hope it's not 48 hrs of trash talking you in front of your kids.


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## maxter

UPDATE-
Far as I can tell she did see an attorney yesterday. She took the checkbook with her. I haven't seen if she wrote a check out or not yet. She didn't put the checkbook back in it's place. Online banking doesn't show any withdrawel from checking or savings. She may have just paid for another consult. Anyway, her demeanor last night after she got home was very calm. She didn't appear upset or agitated. Which worries me of course. This lawyer has a habit of telling her things are rosey for moms and she will get all kinds of stuff out of me. My guess is she got the same story about custody. If she did then I doubt she and I will be able to work anything out before court. I guess it will be up to the judge. Say a prayer for me. Dad's don't get a fair shake when it comes to children. All I want is to maintain the equal time I have spent with them over the years and continue to be a part of their lives.


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## golfergirl

maxter said:


> UPDATE-
> Far as I can tell she did see an attorney yesterday. She took the checkbook with her. I haven't seen if she wrote a check out or not yet. She didn't put the checkbook back in it's place. Online banking doesn't show any withdrawel from checking or savings. She may have just paid for another consult. Anyway, her demeanor last night after she got home was very calm. She didn't appear upset or agitated. Which worries me of course. This lawyer has a habit of telling her things are rosey for moms and she will get all kinds of stuff out of me. My guess is she got the same story about custody. If she did then I doubt she and I will be able to work anything out before court. I guess it will be up to the judge. Say a prayer for me. Dad's don't get a fair shake when it comes to children. All I want is to maintain the equal time I have spent with them over the years and continue to be a part of their lives.


Wishing you the best. You seem like a reasonable fair man a hopefully the powers that be see that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sod

Good luck with that. Courts dont automatically assume mothers are guaranteed custody anymore unless she can show you are a danger to the kids. Dont let it get it you, you are fighting for whats right and at the end of the day, they are your kids too!


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## COGypsy

Sod said:


> Good luck with that. Courts dont automatically assume mothers are guaranteed custody anymore unless she can show you are a danger to the kids. Dont let it get it you, you are fighting for whats right and at the end of the day, they are your kids too!


Yep, I think that courts probably default to the mother when the fathers don't put forth anything to the contrary. If you request an alternative arrangement with documentation as to why you feel that's appropriate, necessary, desirable etc., then I don't see why you wouldn't have a fair shake in the proceedings. Worst case, request a guardian ad litem to cut short the "he said, she said".


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## Mike188

maxter said:


> UPDATE-
> Dad's don't get a fair shake when it comes to children. All I want is to maintain the equal time I have spent with them over the years and continue to be a part of their lives.


I don't think that's accurate, at least not most places. If you ask for 50% custody in most states you are almost guaranteed to get it unless there is some reason you are unfit. 

You may even wind up with them full time. I have met a few people (either the kids or dads) who started out in a 50/50 every other week arrangement but the wife eventually couldn't handle it or the kid felt more cared for with the dad and then the kid wound up staying with the dad 80-90% of the time. My almost-15 year old is living with me full time because my wife has grown very selfish and neglectful over the past two years and he knows living with her would, in his words, suck. My 12 an 10 year olds may grow tired of her BS too some day.


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## maxter

STBXW did in fact see a lawyer. She moved money out of her savings (took 1/2 her xmas money plus the escrow refund I gave her) to checking and then wrote a check to her attorney. I saw some papers in her van tucked between the seats. Upon inspection it turned out to be child & alimony support calculations. I have this funny feeling she may have filed for support (child & alimony), but I won't know for sure unless I get served papers. The numbers were very close to what I came up with on my own. However, I did notice that certain 'adjustments' had not been considered like me providing healthcare coverage, some expensive meds that I pay for, and other items that I will fight for to have the payment reduced.

She's still on this 'bad mom' kick where she thinks that my filing for primary custody automatically says that she is a terrible mother. She keeps asking me what makes me a better parent than her. She asks me how I'm going to tear her down in court. She tells me all about how much she loves our girls and how much time and devotion she put into them as babies, etc. She asked me if there will be others present (like my parents) in the hearing. I asked her why she keeps hiding what she's done? Why does she want it to be kept secret? I told her that just proves that she doesn't accept ownership for the affair and destruction of our family. At which point she goes right back into the past and attacks me for drinking and other indiscretions.

One positive thing is she is going up to her mom's house this weekend and staying overnight. Her and a couple of her sisters that live in the area have plans to do a bunch of stuff to help her mom out. They clean the house, do laundry, pay bills, buy groceries, anything to help her mom out. In the meantime I will be frantically moving stuff into my new place. I'm not taking anything noticeable from our home because I still don't want her to know yet. But I can move everything out of my parents house they gave me plus go shopping for all the kitchen and bath items I need. It's a start.


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## maxter

UPDATE-
Well, I've starting moving stuff in to my new place. Saturday night I met my parents at Super Wal Mart and they bought me all the new stuff I need for kitchen, bath, bedrooms and such. I mean everything from small appliances like microwave, toaster oven, and such down to silverware and stuff. Today we moved all the furniture items they have donated to me out of their house and into my new place. It's starting to look like a home. 

They really like my new place. They couldn't believe how nice and new everthing looked and how spacious it was. My dad asked me if anyone actually lived there because it was so neat and clean. He said the STBXW will be jealous when she sees it and will probably ask me to swap. I doubt that will happen.

STBXW is at her mom's house for the holiday weekend with our girls. I called last night to say goodnight to our girls. I called again today but nobody answered at home. I called the W's cell and no answer. Left a message for her to call me later if she could. She had the girls call me tonight. After I talked to them about their day she sent them out of the room so she could talk to me. She started in with sarcasm and put downs for about 10 minutes. 

She wanted to talk about custody. Saying again that I was trying to take our girls away from her. That I was hurting the girls by putting them through a custody hearing. That there would be witnessed required to testify. I told her I know there would be witnesses and that I had all I needed to support my case. She said she was surprised I didn't put up a big fight about her taking the girls up to her mom's since I think she's such a bad mother. I told her it wasn't a problem, they like to visit grandma and see their cousins.

Eventually she calmed down and her tone softened. She became very serious and said she doesn't want the girls to go through this court hearing. She asked if we could work this out. I told her sure, come talk to me with a proposal. I'm a reasonable person and she needs to accept the splitting up of our family and that things must be different. She cannot continue to deny that our family dynamic is changing and we will be living separate lives. Then she tells me she doesn't want that. She wants us to remain a family together. I tell her I didn't want this either but she gave me no other choice but to divorce and file for custody. I told her she didn't chose me or her family and therefore I must move on without her. 

The strange thing behind all this talk is she retained an attorney last week and filed a counter complaint to my custody claim asking for primary custody. So her position remains the same, she wants primary custody with only visitation and every other weekend for me. So we are still opposed. The wierd thing is she keeps talking about working this out and not putting the girls through a hearing. It appears that she is worried, at least on the surface, about the outcome.

Oh, one last thing. Early this past week I checked to see if the weed she kept hidden in her closet was still there and it was. Saturday after she left I checked again and it was gone! I guess she finally decided it was not a good thing for her to be in possession of a controlled substance for the hearing. None the less, I had previously documented it with a series of photographs showing the room, closet, hiding place and baggie of weed if needed for court.


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## aug

maxter said:


> The strange thing behind all this talk is she retained an attorney last week and filed a counter complaint to my custody claim asking for primary custody. So her position remains the same, she wants primary custody with only visitation and every other weekend for me. So we are still opposed. The wierd thing is she keeps talking about working this out and not putting the girls through a hearing. It appears that she is worried, at least on the surface, about the outcome.


I think it's just a starting negotiating position for her lawyer and her to take.


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## maxter

aug- Yeah you're probably right about it all being a starting position. That's why I filed for primary custody, so I had some room to negotiate back down to what I want.

Last night I was hoping for some disclosure or explanation from her. During her drive back from her moms, she called me and we talked mainly about this week and the girls schedules. But every so often she would throw in a comment about how good it was for her to be away this weekend and have time to think about everything that's going on. She asked me if I liked being alone this weekend. I said it was OK, but I missed our daughters not being around.

Later in the evening I was watching the news in our bedroom when she came in and layed down on the bed. She started talking about things but not in any coherant train of thought. She was jumping all over the place and at one point I said to her "spit it out, I can't read your mind". She hemmed and hawed before finally saying she wants me to delay any further custody pursuits until after Christmas. She feels the court hearing and all will be too stressful on the girls during the upcoming holidays. I told her no I would not delay. I've already waited years and been used by her the whole time. I told her I'm not waiting any longer. I told her custody doesn't have to drag out till December, that we could settle it right now if she were reasonable about the whole situation. The conversation pretty much stopped at that point. I got up and left the room to go get bedtime snacks for the girls. At bedtime she layed awake for two hours (I had trouble falling asleep too). But she didn't say anything else to me.

Today I will call my attorney to setup a meeting about her counter-claim and what my response is going to be. I don't know if this is the appropriate time to formally offer 50/50 custody or not. I'll have to see what my lawyer says. I believe the prefferred idea is to negotiate and settle before we get into court. This is crazy we have to do this through our attorneys.


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## golfergirl

maxter said:


> aug- Yeah you're probably right about it all being a starting position. That's why I filed for primary custody, so I had some room to negotiate back down to what I want.
> 
> Last night I was hoping for some disclosure or explanation from her. During her drive back from her moms, she called me and we talked mainly about this week and the girls schedules. But every so often she would throw in a comment about how good it was for her to be away this weekend and have time to think about everything that's going on. She asked me if I liked being alone this weekend. I said it was OK, but I missed our daughters not being around.
> 
> Later in the evening I was watching the news in our bedroom when she came in and layed down on the bed. She started talking about things but not in any coherant train of thought. She was jumping all over the place and at one point I said to her "spit it out, I can't read your mind". She hemmed and hawed before finally saying she wants me to delay any further custody pursuits until after Christmas. She feels the court hearing and all will be too stressful on the girls during the upcoming holidays. I told her no I would not delay. I've already waited years and been used by her the whole time. I told her I'm not waiting any longer. I told her custody doesn't have to drag out till December, that we could settle it right now if she were reasonable about the whole situation. The conversation pretty much stopped at that point. I got up and left the room to go get bedtime snacks for the girls. At bedtime she layed awake for two hours (I had trouble falling asleep too). But she didn't say anything else to me.
> 
> Today I will call my attorney to setup a meeting about her counter-claim and what my response is going to be. I don't know if this is the appropriate time to formally offer 50/50 custody or not. I'll have to see what my lawyer says. I believe the prefferred idea is to negotiate and settle before we get into court. This is crazy we have to do this through our attorneys.


Good for you. There is never a good time. Christmas - Valentine's Day - Groundhog Day - birthdays - daylight savings switchover... She's trying to put some distance between her crappy behaviour and hearing so he can say it was in the past, she's changed now. Or more time to work on you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

MINOR UPDATE-
STBXW had her first IC session in 1-1/2yrs last night. She was distressed when she got home and avoided me. We didn't speak to each other at all last night or so far today. She went to bed really early complaining of a bad headache.

I have an appointment with my attorney Friday morning to respond to her counter-claim for primary custody.


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## maxter

OPINIONS?

Should I tell my STBXW that I actually have a place and maybe even show it to her?

She's been using the fact that I don't have a place yet (she thinks place I looked at was rented to someone else) as an excuse to hold up custody negotiations. She keeps saying "Well I don't know where you will be living so I cannot decide what level of custody is appropriate". I think she's just looking for any excuse to prevent reaching an agreement. My lawyer said that it's a legitimate reason on the face of it. She wouldn't want me living 30 minutes away or in other towns nearby. Lawyer said there's no harm in letting her know before the custody conference.

My only reason for holding out was the shock value of her finding out in the conference that I had the place 1/2mi from the marital home and in the same school district. Now I'm thinking maybe if she knows I have it and realizes how ideal it looks to the court- she may reconsider sharing custody with me. Who knows? I don't put alot of faith in her ability to think rationally these days.


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## Shaggy

Your secret is just playing games at this point. Tell her and get moving on the divorce details.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RunningOnEmpty

Ask your lawyer.

If she learns you have a place to go, she will ask you to leave. Or she may file for sole use of the marital home and get you kicked out.

You want to stay in your house WITH your kids, up until you get at least temp orders.

What do you gain by telling her?

IMO, she is using that as a reason why she is delaying custody negotiations. And where you rent/live has no implication as to your rightful time with your kids.

So... don't.


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## maxter

I also have concerns about her possible behavior once she knows I have a place. She could try to do things or provoke me in some way to 'force' me out of the marital home. And I cannot leave prior to the custody conference or risk harming my custody position. You never know with her. She gets crazy emotional especially about our kids.


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## maxter

RunningOnEmpty said:


> Ask your lawyer.
> 
> If she learns you have a place to go, she will ask you to leave. Or she may file for sole use of the marital home and get you kicked out.
> 
> You want to stay in your house WITH your kids, up until you get at least temp orders.
> 
> What do you gain by telling her?
> 
> IMO, she is using that as a reason why she is delaying custody negotiations. And where you rent/live has no implication as to your rightful time with your kids.
> 
> So... don't.


Ahh, you submitted as I was typing up my other concern. My gut feeling is she is just delaying and using this as an excuse not to discuss openly with me. Correct, I want to stay put until an order is in place.


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## maxter

I made more progress toward moving into my new place today. I went to a really nice used furniture store and bought a dining room table & chair set, two end tables, two matching chest of drawers for my daughters room, and a recliner. I installed the shower caddy and shower curtain to finish off the bathroom. It's starting to look like a home finally.

STBXW continues to belittle me in front of our girls. She makes snide and sarcastic comments with them in the room or within earshot. Everytime she does this I tell my girls that her comments are not very nice and hurt my feelings and that she should not be talking that way in front of them. Not much else I can do about it. I do make note of each incident in my journal in case it's needed in the custody hearing.


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## maxter

UPDATE-
STBXW continues with her snide and sarcastic remarks. Not sure what's gotten into her lately. Up until recently she's been indifferent and distant, as have I. She was gone most of Sunday to attend her brothers 25th wedding anniversary dinner. When she returned around 5pm, the comments started right away. After a while of this crap, I got tired of it and needed to get some fresh air. So I went to the grocery store.

When I got back from the grocery store, all of the sudden she is nice and pleasant! She's talking to me respectfully. Making small talk about an apple pie she & daughter just baked. Talking about what days we need the babysitter. I just don't get it! She's Jeckle and Hyde. She told me I appear very confident about the custody hearing coming up. I hope I don't appear over confident to her (I'm not inside) and she takes that to mean I'm making my chances out to be better than they are. I simply responded "Yes, I'm confident. If I didn't have a strong case, I wouldn't have filed and wasted the time & money." At bedtime she says "So daughter says you went to Mattress Warehouse today". I didn't respond (looking at new beds for girls for my new place). She says "daughter says you were video taping them outside. What's that for?" I didn't respond (we raked up all the leaves into a huge pile and were running and jumping into it- lots of fun). Finally she gives up, rolls over and says "well, goodnight". I don't respond.

This morning as I'm getting dressed, she rolls over in bed and starts talking to me. She asks me if 'this' is really what I want. I asked if she meant separation. She said yes. I told her it was never what I wanted. I never wanted a divorce. But her behaviors and actions left me no choice. Unfortunately, the path I'm going down is necessary, not desired. She asked me if there was any remote chance we could come out of this together. I told her as of today, I don't see that happening. I told her I think separation is the way to proceed at this time. I reminded her that in June I gave her the 5 major requirements for reconciliation and she didn't attempt a single one. I told her that if I were in her shoes I would be jumping through hoops right now to save us just like I did 3 1/2yrs ago; to recover and prove myself. She has done nothing. I left the bedroom to leave for work. I wanted to say something about custody- a last ditch proposal but for some reason couldn't bring myself to speak out.

I finished getting ready and was at the door, thinking about my proposal, pushing myself to at least put it on the table. So I walked back into the bedroom to talk some more and she was on her cellphone which is a HUGE trigger for me. It reminds me of all the times she spent texting and calling the other man. So I said "oh, great" turned and walked out to leave for work. She got up, followed me out, down the stairs saying "I was just turning it on, like I do every morning. What's the problem? What did you want to say?" I told her it's a trigger for me and I was done talking. She pressed further while coming into the laundry room, "tell me what's on your mind. You were going to say something". So I figure what the hell, just freakin say it. Get it over with.

I ask her if she would consider shared custody starting in January, one week with each of us, rotating. That way, I tell her, the girls would be 'home' through the holidays like she wants and there could be a delayed transition like she wants. She asks if I would be moving out. I tell her yes, if we have an agreement. She says, she was hoping I would just stay here during that time. I tell her that is not a good idea and we should start the transition. I tell her maybe they stay with me a couple weekends and they stay at home during the weekdays for school and for the Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays. She says too bad I don't have a place to live, where would they go on these weekends? I tell her the market is good right now and I can find a place easily. Again she pulls the 'I don't know where you'll be' card. I remind her I will stay close, that I won't be going far away. She says "too bad you didn't get that place close by, that would have been ideal". WOW! No kidding. So finally I tell her please think about my proposal. It meets alot of her requirements, as best we can in this situation.

All weekend she's been digging for information about what evidence and information I have on her. Using every trick in her bag, from confrontation to emotional pity to try and get me to reveal details. She wants to know why I think shes a bad mom. What things has she done that make her a bad mother. I kept telling her I don't have an answer for her. She responded "yes, you do. you just won't tell me." To which I replied "That's correct. I will not tell you. Doing so would be foolish."

Well, I'll have to see what comes of my custody proposal after she thinks about it today.


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## Jellybeans

Don't feed into it. Idk how you are still sleeping in the same bed as her!! That is nuts. Her Jeykll/Hyde is normal for a wayward. Keep standing your ground. You were right to tell her why you are divorcing her. Don't tell her what your triggers are. She isn't deserving of any of that info anymore.


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## maxter

UPDATE-
STBXW and I didn't talk much at all last night. Just a few words about the girls school work. She didn't bring up my proposal at all. You'll see why below.

I did find out through anonymous source that she still does not accept 50/50 custody and wants her lawyer to work up another 'offer' for maybe 70/30 or 60/40, not really sure. She says she now realizes she cannot get full custody, even by going to court. She says she wants a little more than 50/50. She says if I reject her coming offer, then off to court we go. 

Through anonymous source, she feels that I hold everything over her head throughout our marriage and use it to make her scared and afraid of me. Afraid financially, security wise, physically (BS- she's the one who has slapped, punched, hit, and body blocked me. She throws heavy objects at me). She says her anxiety level is off the charts and her nerves are getting frayed from all of this. She is very afraid of what evidence I may have against her for recent incident in August in the hotel suite with my kids and the other man. But---she also thinks I'm overly confident and thinks I may just be bluffing to force her into shared custody. She says she feels broken, as if I have worn her down to the point she just gives in. The problem for me is I'm not bluffing, but I don't have anything concrete that can be used in court. It would only be testimony from me without substantiation due to the manner in which I got the info. The only possible witness testimony would be the other man and her girlfriend whom she's confided details with. But of course they will both lie in court to protect themselves or her so they are of no use. She is fully expecting an attack on her in this coming conference. That's not our beginning strategy, so I don't know what will happen when her fears don't come true. Will she be relieved and be open to considering 50/50? Or will she think "Hey, he didn't attack. maybe he doesn't have any evidence after all. I'm going for custody". Who knows what is going through that crazy mind of hers. 

So no breakthrough to report. I had hopes yesterday, but today they are once again smashed to bits. Uhg!!!


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## golfergirl

maxter said:


> UPDATE-
> STBXW and I didn't talk much at all last night. Just a few words about the girls school work. She didn't bring up my proposal at all. You'll see why below.
> 
> I did find out through anonymous source that she still does not accept 50/50 custody and wants her lawyer to work up another 'offer' for maybe 70/30 or 60/40, not really sure. She says she now realizes she cannot get full custody, even by going to court. She says she wants a little more than 50/50. She says if I reject her coming offer, then off to court we go.
> 
> Through anonymous source, she feels that I hold everything over her head throughout our marriage and use it to make her scared and afraid of me. Afraid financially, security wise, physically (BS- she's the one who has slapped, punched, hit, and body blocked me. She throws heavy objects at me). She says her anxiety level is off the charts and her nerves are getting frayed from all of this. She is very afraid of what evidence I may have against her for recent incident in August in the hotel suite with my kids and the other man. But---she also thinks I'm overly confident and thinks I may just be bluffing to force her into shared custody. She says she feels broken, as if I have worn her down to the point she just gives in. The problem for me is I'm not bluffing, but I don't have anything concrete that can be used in court. It would only be testimony from me without substantiation due to the manner in which I got the info. The only possible witness testimony would be the other man and her girlfriend whom she's confided details with. But of course they will both lie in court to protect themselves or her so they are of no use. She is fully expecting an attack on her in this coming conference. That's not our beginning strategy, so I don't know what will happen when her fears don't come true. Will she be relieved and be open to considering 50/50? Or will she think "Hey, he didn't attack. maybe he doesn't have any evidence after all. I'm going for custody". Who knows what is going through that crazy mind of hers.
> 
> So no breakthrough to report. I had hopes yesterday, but today they are once again smashed to bits. Uhg!!!


This is where you discuss strategy with your lawyer. If she's stressed then good. Your lawyer needs a way to question her to trip her up. She doesn't sound like the brightest bulb in the chandlier, so get him to ask her something that makes her 'correct' his intentional inaccuracy, then bang - she's trapped.
It works well on TV?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COGypsy

Or bring up her recreational drug use, request a drug test and if that comes up positive, then it makes the case for other illicit activity and poor judgement to take place.


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## Shaggy

Is she still seeing the OM or has she given him up for now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

Shaggy said:


> Is she still seeing the OM or has she given him up for now?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, from what little monitoring capability I have left, I would say she's not in contact for the last few weeks. Not since she skipped work that Monday and went to see him. But I have no access to her cell phone or email accounts (work & private) so who really knows?

Everytime she needs something from me and I tell her to go get it from her boyfriend, she gets angry and tells me she doesn't have a boyfriend, he has no time for her, and she has nobody now. Boo effin' Hoo!

According to her, that Monday visit was her attempt to find out where he stands with their relationship (she wants more, he wants a F***buddy). She says he doesn't want anything serious and is extremely busy with his own life. He works full time and has 50% custody of his three boys and is fighting for full custody. She says there is no room in his life for her and she is basically giving up on him. She says it's over.


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## ArmyofJuan

maxter said:


> Everytime she needs something from me and I tell her to go get it from her boyfriend, she gets angry and tells me she doesn't have a boyfriend, he has no time for her, and she has nobody now. Boo effin' Hoo!


That's her fault.



> According to her, that Monday visit was her attempt to find out where he stands with their relationship (she wants more, he wants a F***buddy). She says he doesn't want anything serious and is extremely busy with his own life. He works full time and has 50% custody of his three boys and is fighting for full custody. She says there is no room in his life for her and she is basically giving up on him. She says it's over.


She still has strong feelings for him though. You can't flipped that off like a switch. This is probably why she hadn't put any effort in fixing herself, she was still hoping the OM will change his mind.

I have to admit I like the anger you showed since d-day. Many guys get their egos so destroyed that they end up begging for the WS to stop the A and work on the M. If there is a snowballs chance in hell for a R, its taking the hard line.


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## Jellybeans

maxter said:


> According to her, that Monday visit was her attempt to find out where he stands with their relationship (she wants more, he wants a F***buddy).


Imagine that.

 Sarcastic face. 

Max, talk to your lawyer about the custody thing and tell him about the hotel suite thing. Don't show her any of your cards. I am sure she is feeling anxious. I think the reality is just starting to set in for her. It's not your job to placate her or make her feel better, don't forget that.

Be civil with her but do not get into long-drawn out conversations, etc about things. This was the road she chose.


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## maxter

ArmyofJuan said:


> I have to admit I like the anger you showed since d-day. Many guys get their egos so destroyed that they end up begging for the WS to stop the A and work on the M. If there is a snowballs chance in hell for a R, its taking the hard line.


I've only had this anger and drive since the most recent D day in Aug when she involved our girls in this mess with the OM. She's been in this affair off and on since April 2008. During which time I've been working on fixing myself and trying to get her to come around. But turns out the damage I inflicted on the marriage was too much and she checked out long ago. Although she played a pretty good game pretending and using me for financial security and domestic support all those years. I became a doormat, perpetually hoping things would change. The shock of her behavor in Aug finally snapped me out of my own 'fog' and I filed for D.


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## Shaggy

maxter said:


> According to her, that Monday visit was her attempt to find out where he stands with their relationship (she wants more, he wants a F***buddy). She says he doesn't want anything serious and is extremely busy with his own life. He works full time and has 50% custody of his three boys and is fighting for full custody. She says there is no room in his life for her and she is basically giving up on him. She says it's over.


There's one more vote for how effective letting them go can be to throw a wrench in the affair. He was happy to cuckold you, but did want her full time.

Well done!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

maxter said:


> She's been in this affair off and on since April 2008.


Oh wow, Max. I didn't know her affair was going on 3 years now.


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## maxter

Jellybeans said:


> Oh wow, Max. I didn't know her affair was going on 3 years now.


Yeah, not good. I stayed put mainly for our kids sake, all the while working on my self improvement, hoping she would come out of her fog. But like I said, turns out it was more than just affair fog. I have done some serious damage to her emotionally due to my past behaviors and coupled with her childhood abuse, it was a recipe for disaster.


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## Unsure in Seattle

That's nice of you to say, but don't shoulder too much of the blame there, Max.

I honestly think you're handling things about as well as you possibly can in this situation. Stay the course... don't let her delay and don't tip your hand as to what you know or don't know. She's freaked out because she knows she's in the wrong.

Also, note her subtly trying to feel you out towards R because OM is not as much in the picture as he was. Classy.


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## Jellybeans

Good for you for owning that.

I think the best thing now is to try to be civil unti this all is over with re: to the divorce. Be good parents to your children, don't badmouth her. She is prob dealing with her own issues right now and the reality of all of this. 

You may want to get into IC yourself so you can talk about how you feel/feel your feelings out and address the own past behaviors you referenced that caused her a lot of emotional damage/pain.


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## maxter

Unsure in Seattle said:


> That's nice of you to say, but don't shoulder too much of the blame there, Max.


I struggle with this every day. Sometimes I blame myself for being the catalyst that triggered her affair. I know she's 100% responsible for acting on it. If I hadn't treated her so badly, maybe she wouldn't have looked elsewhere for what she needed. But she could have chosen a better path like intervention (for my drinking), separation, or even D rather than commit adultery.


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## COGypsy

maxter said:


> I struggle with this every day. Sometimes I blame myself for being the catalyst that triggered her affair. I know she's 100% responsible for acting on it. If I hadn't treated her so badly, maybe she wouldn't have looked elsewhere for what she needed. But she could have chosen a better path like intervention (for my drinking), separation, or even D rather than commit adultery.


When you start with that logic though, everyone could be blamed for everything. She could be blamed for you starting to drink, you could be blamed for not doing something sooner, she could be blamed for ..... and so on forever.

Sure, you're both in this marriage and you both have a role in what's happened. Hindsight is 20/20 and better choices could have been made all around. But realistically, the happiest couples can say the same thing. As hard as it is, you have to do your best to stay out of your head and just look ahead to doing the best you can for you and your kids moving forward. Either that or seriously look at some counseling for yourself to get things out of that endless loop that tends to play in your head and at least be heard by an outside party that can help you logically work through what's gone on.


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## thegreatsideswipe

Was the conference yesterday?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

thegreatsideswipe said:


> Was the conference yesterday?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, the custody conference is tomorrow, Tuesday afternoon. And I'm a nervous wreck!


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## maxter

UPDATE-
STBXW went back up to her mom's this past weekend for her brother-in-laws 60th Bday party. She took the girls with her and they had a blast. The party was at a local firehall with DJ, music, and dancing. Our girls love to dance. One daughter was dissappointed I wouldn't go with them. I told STBXW that I couldn't stand being in the car with her for four hours and would be uncomfortable around her family. I told my daughter I had lots of yard work to do and other chores to catch up on.

I went to a mattress store and bought twin beds for the girls and a new mattress for my bedframe. I also picked up my new recliner for the living room. Sunday I spent a few hours at my new place putting things away in the kitchen, setting up the beds, and cleaning up the mess from unpacking. I'd say I'm about 75% furnished. I have an antique bedroom suite to move from the marital home plus all my tools & shelving and then of course my personal belongings. I took a bunch of photos of the place and printed them out to use at the conference meeting tomorrow.

When STBXW came home she kept up with her bullsh!t sarcastic remarks for awhile as she was unpacking. I went to bed at 10pm and of course she started talking to me about family dynamic and how I will always be welcome at her family events and how important it is to the girls. She critisized me for not going up this weekend, saying daughter was very dissappointed and it shows where my priorities lie (ie. not with the girls). Of course I couldn't tell her I was doing something 'for the girls', but maybe that will sink in tomorrow at the conference. She also reminded me that since it's important to the girls for both parents to be at events- she WILL be coming to all my family activities like picnics and Christmas. I didn't even respond because there is no point in getting into an argument. But I was thinking "You probably won't be invited so you're just gonna crash each event and possibly make a scene?" WTH?

She doesn't live in reality. Our lives will be separate soon which will change alot of things. I mean, we'll still do stuff together, the four of us, like maybe see a christmas play, amusement park or go to a concert, etc etc. But the typical family birthdays and holidays will be changing. She asked me about Thanksgiving again, was I going up to her moms. Then she says since I have so many 'issues' with her that maybe she and the girls will just stay home to make it easier. Home or away doesn't matter- neither will be easier anymore. I didn't respond. Again you can't reason with her. I wanted to tell her that we will most likely be alternating holidays from year to year. Which means it will be up to me where they go during my year. I'm not saying I will not allow them to go, just depends on what I have going on at that time.

I am dreading this meeting tomorrow, very much so.


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## golfergirl

maxter said:


> UPDATE-
> STBXW went back up to her mom's this past weekend for her brother-in-laws 60th Bday party. She took the girls with her and they had a blast. The party was at a local firehall with DJ, music, and dancing. Our girls love to dance. One daughter was dissappointed I wouldn't go with them. I told STBXW that I couldn't stand being in the car with her for four hours and would be uncomfortable around her family. I told my daughter I had lots of yard work to do and other chores to catch up on.
> 
> I went to a mattress store and bought twin beds for the girls and a new mattress for my bedframe. I also picked up my new recliner for the living room. Sunday I spent a few hours at my new place putting things away in the kitchen, setting up the beds, and cleaning up the mess from unpacking. I'd say I'm about 75% furnished. I have an antique bedroom suite to move from the marital home plus all my tools & shelving and then of course my personal belongings. I took a bunch of photos of the place and printed them out to use at the conference meeting tomorrow.
> 
> When STBXW came home she kept up with her bullsh!t sarcastic remarks for awhile as she was unpacking. I went to bed at 10pm and of course she started talking to me about family dynamic and how I will always be welcome at her family events and how important it is to the girls. She critisized me for not going up this weekend, saying daughter was very dissappointed and it shows where my priorities lie (ie. not with the girls). Of course I couldn't tell her I was doing something 'for the girls', but maybe that will sink in tomorrow at the conference. She also reminded me that since it's important to the girls for both parents to be at events- she WILL be coming to all my family activities like picnics and Christmas. I didn't even respond because there is no point in getting into an argument. But I was thinking "You probably won't be invited so you're just gonna crash each event and possibly make a scene?" WTH?
> 
> She doesn't live in reality. Our lives will be separate soon which will change alot of things. I mean, we'll still do stuff together, the four of us, like maybe see a christmas play, amusement park or go to a concert, etc etc. But the typical family birthdays and holidays will be changing. She asked me about Thanksgiving again, was I going up to her moms. Then she says since I have so many 'issues' with her that maybe she and the girls will just stay home to make it easier. Home or away doesn't matter- neither will be easier anymore. I didn't respond. Again you can't reason with her. I wanted to tell her that we will most likely be alternating holidays from year to year. Which means it will be up to me where they go during my year. I'm not saying I will not allow them to go, just depends on what I have going on at that time.
> 
> I am dreading this meeting tomorrow, very much so.


How do you control yourself from yelling SHUT THE F*** UP. You must just crave silence. Best of luck tomorrow - please update! Be cool - focus more on your positives and sound like you would do anything to encourage their relationship. You'll do great - lots of practice biting your tongue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Why Not Be Happy?

Good luck!


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## maxter

Last night at home was emotionally charged and full of drama. The STBXW was a distraught, emotional mess! She was clearly having trouble coping with what's coming her way regarding custody and separation.

One daughter gave her some attitude about a homework paper and she lost it, yelling at her, telling her to get it together and stop being so moody. Other daughter was doing homework with me, but she didn't want to read what I thought was appropriate material (chapter book) and looked to her mom for the typical way out. Mom wasn't in the mood for her shananigans and layed into her pretty hard, screaming at her to leave her alone, get away, listen to your dad, do what you're told. Daughter broke down in tears and went to her room until supper was ready.

At dinner, I asked one daughter what her 'special' class was today (they have 5 and rotate them weekly). STBXW sarcastically retorts to me "So you don't even know what your girls special is. It's right on the frig." To which I calmy reply "Well, once I start taking them to school in the morning, I'll have a better handle on the daily special." She looses it, breaks down sobbing and goes into the bedroom to cry. Mommy's girl goes in to try and soothe her. After about 5mins, she comes back out to finish eating and we have a decent conversation about the school day.

I went to bed at 10pm as usual. STBXW watches TV for 5 more minutes then turns it off. She's lying there in bed crying and sobbing. I just lay there doing nothing. After a few minutes she starts talking to me about everything. She doesn't understand how I can be so cold and mean to her. What? I said I have not been mean to her. She's the one making sarcastic comments and provoking me. I said what she thinks looks like me being cold is actually me emotionally detaching from her. I said our relationship is dead and I'm working on detaching my heart from her to protect my sanity. 

She talks about the house. She says she won't stay here long term, just staying for the girls. I said then we should probably sell the house. She says no, it's my house, always has been, there's nothing/no one here for her. I asked why she want's to stay then since she clearly cannot afford it. She says it's because of the girls. It's the only home they know, their friends and pets are all here and she wants to remain in that environment. I ask what if the girls are with me, then what? She says then I'll be here alone. I tell her the house will most likely have to be sold to settle the marital property anyway. She replies she won't let that happen, says again it was my house, I built it, my grandparents gave me the downpayment for it, etc. She didn't come out and say she relinquishes claim, but seemed to be hinting at that. I can't see her actually doing that because that would mean a huge financial loss for her. Her attorney would advise her otherwise I'm sure.

She again dove into the reasons why I filed for full custody. Why do I think she's a bad mother? She's never done anything to harm our kids and so on. I told her what she did recently in Aug was enough to scare the sh!t out of me. Luckily nothing happened, but the potential risk for psychological harm to our kids was huge. She is either sweeping this event under the rug or maybe cannot actually process it rationally to understand what she did was so terribly risky. She says that she would never have filed for full custody (like I did) and that's why she didn't file first. She feels that I betrayed her by saying I would not take the kids away from her and then filing. I tried to reason with her that even if I got full custody, I would never 'take' the girls away from her. I told her she would still be an active part in their lives.

After an hour of this drama, no concession was reached. She couldn't grasp that if I didn't get 50/50 that I would go for 100% and not consider anything in between. She kept asking me why, why. All I could tell her was we both contribute unique and valuable traits & experiences to our girls and they should continue to have the same mix of time with each of us, thus 50/50 is the best possible solution given the circumstances. She told me she still feels that the mom is the center and heart of any family and that's why she wants the girls. I can understand that statement. It's an emotionally driven feeling, maternal in nature, that makes sense from her perspective. But it's not an idea that's supported by research in child psychology and divorce. Active, involved fathers play a huge role in the proper development of a child into a balanced adult.

Today I'm strangely calm. I'm exhausted from all the emotional drama and lack of good sleep of course. But I'm not nervous right now. Maybe I will be closer to the meeting. I keep telling myself that I cannot control any of this. I tell myself to let the worry go free, I can't control the outcome as much as I wish I could. All I can do is pray, take what happens and move on.

Wish me luck. Custody conference at 1pm EST.


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## Sod

Maxter - Good luck, you seem to handling this well. I would recommend not discussing any details to what you have as "proof" with her unless she offers concessions (ie 50/50). Keep your head and fight for your kids


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## aug

Good luck.

Dont show all your hand unless needed. Keep some in reserve just in case.


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## hesnothappy

Good Luck on the conference today. Stay strong and determined, but listen with an open mind and heart.


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## golfergirl

aug said:


> Good luck.
> 
> Dont show all your hand unless needed. Keep some in reserve just in case.


Thinking of you! Best of luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

1st CUSTODY CONFERENCE-

It didn't go well. No movement either way toward a resolution. STBXW's lawyer is a b!tch. My lawyer and I got to the courthouse first and went to the assigned courtroom. Then X's lawyer comes in without the X. I;m thinking, WTH? did X agree with 50/50 and sent the lawyer to finalize. But Nooooo. X didn't want to face me so she hid in the hallway. The two lawyers conferred in the hallway. I could overhear some of the conversation. X insists the kids live in the marital home. X acknowledges having a 'friend'. My lawyer responded with 'unnacceptable' to kids living exclusively in marital home. He said my client has secured a place to live, is entitled to equal time with kids. X's lawyer was surprised by this new info. She went into hall, talked with X a minute then came back.

X's lawyer says X must visit and evaluate my new place (effing BS!) before deciding whether it's acceptable or not. My lawyer says he's fully aware of the 'friend' situation. He says it's an affair and involves illicit drugs. X's lawyer says "Well then let's see the Judge".

So both lawyers go into Judges chambers for 10 minutes without us. I get called in first, greet the Judge and sit down. a minute later X comes crawling in. Shes quiet, meek, mild, talks in a low voice. Not like herself at all. I'm attentive, dressed to the nine's in my business suit, assertive and confident with my answers to the judge. Of course I'm a nervous wreck inside but doing my best not to show it.

The judge does most of the talking. He asks each of us questions about our jobs, our schedules and available times. Each time X answers she looks to her lawyer as if seeking affirmation to reply. Judge gets tired of this and reprimands her. He says "stop talking to her. I'm asking the questions, respond to me". Gotta love that

Judge then tells us he doesn't not want to have this proceed to trial. He tells us to work this out. He offers guidelines and things for us to consider. He tells us stop giving the custody a name (ie. full, primary, 50/50, etc). Instead he says for us to look at our schedules, determine when each is available to the kids, and setup the schedule accordingly. Sounds simple, but not in reality. X's work flexibility is zilch. I have complete flexibility. So I can say I'm available in the morning for school, afternoon to get them off school, every evening and every weekend. X' cannot get them after school. She must work one evening each week. She must work one weekend every month. So her time/availability is more limited than mine putting her at a disadvantage.

At the end the judge asked the four of us if we wanted to stay alittle while and discuss. Nobody answered. So judge asked my lawyer directly. His response was not so great. He told the judge that trying to talk with them was futile- knowing that X is cemented in her position. The judge didn't like that response and said "talking is never a futile exercise. I suggest you exchange work schedules to start with". The judge issued an order to delay setting of hearing pending X's visitation of my place. A second conference date was set for next Wed morning. My take is the judge wants to see an effort on our part to resolve this, come to him with some kind of draft parenting plan (which I already created). I don't see that happening because X will not change her position about our girls.

Last night STBXW told me since I have a place I should move out. Yes, here we go with this crap. It will only get more intense the next few weeks. She also told me since it's partially furnished I don't need to take ANYTHING more from the home. I reminded her I was only taking a few pieces and she had verbally agreed to that. She told me "Well you have your secret place now, so all that changes" GEESH! More effing crap to deal with from her. Why do WW's drag things out, obstruct, interfere, and make life miserable for everyone by doing these things? The writing is on the wall. Just sign and get it over with!!!


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## NotLikeYou

Maxter-

I have a couple of suggestions!

Do you still have those VAR's? Take one of them, empty its contents onto your computer at your new place so that it's "fresh," and show it to your wife. Explain to her that, while you're too noble of a guy to secretly record her without her knowledge, you are tired of the verbal sparring. So you're going to keep the recorder with you when she's around, so that everything she says to you, every provocation she offers, will be recorded for your lawyer to use as evidence that she is a sucky person.

I don't actually think it will affect the legal situation, unless she starts threatening you or something, but hopefully it will at least get her to shut up and treat you with silence, rather than talking sh1t all the time.

What might (maybe?) impress the judge is if you present the judge with a draft parenting plan, just like he asked for. Write up a detailed plan that assumes your wife left the country for 6 months- how would you handle raising your daughters 24/7? That will show that you are prepared to assume full custody. Then write another plan that will give you whatever level of custody you are prepared to settle for. Talk to your lawyer about whether to present one or both plans to your ex for consideration. Probably by the time the next consultation with the judge rolls around, you will be able to say, "Your Honor, I have 2 plans here that my STBXW has rejected, and she has presented no plans of her own. Looks like only one of us is serious." Judges like that kind of effort (and don't like the corresponding lack of effort).

Just some thoughts.

Sorry you are going through all this crap.


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## maxter

NotLikeYou-
We think alike! I was thinking the same thing about the parenting plan. The judge even said to us at one point, figure out a schedule, use charts or calenders. Use whatever you two need to work it out. I already did this in Sept using a calender and she rejected three different scenarios for sharing custody. I would expect the same from her now. But it would show initiative on my part.


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## hesnothappy

You WW is going to get more and more difficult to deal with because she is mad about the "secret place" now she has proof that you are moving forward and have not plans on making things work out with her. Do your best to work out the issues using your lawyer and logic in what is best for your daughters. Good luck and be careful this is when the money to the lawyers is spent big time. She does not have sole say on what you can have from the marital home. It has to be shared equaly.


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## golfergirl

hesnothappy said:


> You WW is going to get more and more difficult to deal with because she is mad about the "secret place" now she has proof that you are moving forward and have not plans on making things work out with her. Do your best to work out the issues using your lawyer and logic in what is best for your daughters. Good luck and be careful this is when the money to the lawyers is spent big time. She does not have sole say on what you can have from the marital home. It has to be shared equaly.


Also a relationship with kids is far more important than the house one lives (unless it's unsuitable filth). So if that's all she's got, she might as well give up now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

Last night was hell after going to bed. STBXW started talking about EVERYTHING under the sun. She was sarcastic, mean, emotionally manipulative, demanding, demeaning- you name it. And this went on for three hours! I got very little sleep last night. I ignored all the crap that didn't warrant a response. I tried to answer or reply to things in a calm & logical manner that seemed relevant to resolving our situation. But she was in no frame of mind to think rationally about what I said. Finally I just stopped responding and she gave up talking around 2am.

This morning I get up to get ready for work and she rolls over and mumbles something. I ask her what she said. She sits up in bed and says "We get really worked up over this. Lets go to bed early tonight and sit down this weekend to try and work this out." :scratchhead:

She has these fleeting moments of sanity mixed in with major stretches of crazyness, emotion, and bitterness. It's very taxing. But I have no choice but to endure for now and keep my head on straight. I just wanna take a nap right now.:sleeping:


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## NotLikeYou

Maxter- I still think you should plop down a recorder on the table and let her know that everything she says is being saved for posterity.....


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## Almostrecovered

maxter said:


> "*We* get really worked up over this. ."



that really just explains it all, she uses "we" when she should be saying "I"


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## maxter

COURT ORDERED INSPECTION OF MY NEW PLACE GOES WRONG IN A VERY BAD WAY!

Friday was the day chosen for STBXW to go see my place as requested by the custody judge. After several emails back and forth she settled on having my landlord present and doing the walk through at 6:30 after she gets off work. So I call my landlord, explain the situation and he graciously agrees to meet us at my place at 6:30pm. Then later in the afternoon, STBXW emails again with a change. She doesn't want this to be a circus and drag others into it so she doesn't need the landlord present. I agree, it's a pretty simple matter for me to let her in and she walks around, asks questions and we go. Boy was I wrong!

Every Friday night is pizza night. I'm out of money and she know's it. She got paid friday so she has money. I'm expecting her to come home with a pizza for the kids and we go over to see my new place. She calls the house at 6:45 and says sharply "I'm here, where are you?". I'm thinking "you never said I was supposed to meet you. And obviously there's no supper and I didn't take anything out or prepare anything" She set me up. So I grab my keys, get my jacket frantically telling the babysitter to get this and that out to feed our girls something. I race over to my place where she's waiting in her car.

There is a farm across the street and a barn. This is a very rural area and they have barn cats. A dozen of them. And they are surrounding my W's van. She opens her window and says is it safe for her to get out? I tell her yes, they only come over to visit when somebody comes around. I tell her they're harmless. So she starts b!tching about the cats and rabies and calling the human society before we even get inside.

I unlock the front door and walk in to turn on some lights. She follows me inside and pushes the front door to close it but it stays ajar. I have to walk into the kitchen to turn on more lights as she's looking over the living room. I walk back to the door and open it so you can see through the screen door. I'm edgy and don't know what she might pull. She walks through the foyer and into the dining/kitchen area looking at all the appliances and furniture I've been collecting. The place is 90% furnished now. And it starts!

She turns to me and says "you son of a b!tch. You've been doing all this behind my back and you complain about me keeping secrets. well this is all gonna come out in court (so what?)." Her temp is rising. I'm standing by the front door ready to make an exit if necessary. She walks into the kitchen, looks around and sees photos I put up on the frig of my mom's birthday showing me, mom & dad, and the girls AND FLIPS OUT! She grabs the pics off the frig and throws them yelling at me "you have some nerve putting this sh!t up here, blah blah blah!" So I think she's going to start trashing things and walk into the kitchen to confront her.

I tell her "You need to stop right now! You can't come in here to inspect the place and start throwing things around!" But she's already lost it and can't think or reason. She gets in my face holding some pics, taunting me "what are you going to do?" She throws more pics on the floor. At that point I realize this is going to get bad and real fast so I retreat to the living room and walk out the front door. She follows me out on the porch ranting about this & that. She throws several pics on the ground and stomps on them! Then says again "What are you going to do?". So......wait for it.......I CALL THE POLICE!

I take out my cell, call 911, they connect me to the state police and I explain the situation. I request they dispatch to the location. The whole time W is saying loudly in the background "I want to talk to them, give me the phone, I want to talk". She tries grabbing the phone and I twist and back away each time trying to keep distance between us. She's enraged now and totally berserk. She comes over to me, grabs me in a bear hug and says "kiss me, come on gimme a kiss" (WTF?!) as I pull back and push her arms down. I finally break free from her and walk away up the street to get away until the police come.

As I'm walking, I see another man coming out of my landlords back driveway. He sees me and says "Hello". I say hi back and ask if he's 'name withheld'. He says yes. It's my landlord! I tell him what's going on and he says he'll walk back down with me to wait for the police. We walk back to my place, W is pacing around the driveway. We walk up near her and I say "This is my wife". He says hi, tries to be cordial, but she's p!ssed off and starts ranting about the cats and the driveway is not big enough to play in, saying stuff about me- that there is a history of domestic abuse, blah, blah. I think he sees right through it anyway.

So two cops show up. I invite them inside. Landlord, W and I are standing there and I give a brief explanation of events. Cop#1 stops me and tells cop#2 to take W into other room to get her statement. She instantly breaks down crying and wailing. I couldn't make out what she was saying. Cop#1 takes my statement and immediately sympathizes. He's two years into his own ugly divorce. He understands the situation I'm in and gives me a few pointers. I tell him I have to stay in marital home because we don't have court order yet. He tells me if anything happens between us at the marital home to call and this incident here will be applied toward her as well. He asks if I want to file harasment charges. I say no, not at this time.

W and cop#2 come out of bedroom. She's sobbing heavily. Cop#1 starts to review what transpired with her. She jumps in to rebutt my account saying the pictures were accidentally knocked down. Cop#1 tells her in a raised, firm voice he doesn't care how they fell. He knows what went down here tonight, typical spousal argument. He tells her luckily her husband chose not to engage her and called police instead. He warns her sternly that if anything happens and he gets called to the marital home tonight, charges will be filed including what happended here. W is stunned and becomes completely docile. She says she's ready to leave and there won't be any more trouble. W goes outside, gets in her van and leaves. I lock up and leave also but don't go home. I'm just driving around.

W calls and tells me I have to pay the babysitter and take her home, then she hangs up before I can respond. Two minutes later she calls again asking me where I'm at. She and daughter#2 want to go out for dinner (since I didn't make anything) and I need to come home to watch daughter #1. I say OK, be there in 5 mins. I come home, walk in the house as she and daughter are walking out. So I'm expecting her to stay out for a good while, but she only gets chinese takeout and is back home in 40 mins. (Hurray!) 

I'm laying in our bed watching TV. She comes in, closes the door and locks it. Opens the window and proceeds to chain smoke cigerettes. The thing is she doesn't smoke anymore! She used to 20 years ago, socially with friends, but hasn't done it for years. I say nothing- let her do whatever will sooth her nerves. She starts talking to me about many different things. Our relationship, separation, divorce, custody trial, our kids, her life, our baggage, etc.

After a bunch of cigs, she sits on the bed, crying & sobbing uncontrollably. Eventually when she can catch her breath, she apologizes to me! She tells me she's sorry for hurting me so badly. She doesn't want to loose her family, her children, her life. She wants me to stay. She wants to try to save our marriage. She wants to start very slow, with dinner date or movie. No pressure- just take it slowly. She tells me she wants to fall in love with me again like she felt before everything went to hell, before I drank, before I neglected her and pushed her away emotionally.

I tell her she's wasting her time trying. It takes two to work on a marriage and I'm out. I tell her I need some space, I still want to separate and we need to figure out the custody issue. She says she understands why I would feel that way (does she? I don't think she knows the depth of damage done to me) but she still wants to fight for us. Then she says "I have something to tell you".

First thing was she's been off her anti-anxiety meds for 1-2wks. She only has a few left. Not good! She needs that medication. She went off them for 2wks a couple years ago and it was 2wks of hell! When asked why she says it was because she didn't have enough money. The copay is on $40, come on! I said she needs to prioritize expenses. Meds should come before horse riding lessons. She says "tell you daughter that". Oh-boy. So the next day, Maxter to the rescue! I called in and ordered her meds, expedited delivery, and paid for them myself. I handed her the pills and a drink and told her "please take these". She tried to decline saying she's almost out. So I told her what I did. She's back on them three days now and I think it's helping.

The second thing is more troubling. She tells me she hasn't had a period in two months. Oh my god! She says it's probably stress (and it could be). She is 41 and has been having irregular and sometimes heavy periods the last two years. Her doctor says it might be pre-menopause. I know once in awhile she only goes three weeks between and then sometimes it goes five weeks. No, I did not ask her if she thinks she's pregnant although the timing is perfect for their last two rendevous. I doubt she would be trying to lure me back into the marriage due to pregnancy for several reasons. We havent had sex since last week of July so timing would say it's not mine. And more importantly, I've had a vasectomy 5 years ago. Wow I can't wrap my mind around this one! What if she's pregnant?

Sorry for the novella. Alot has happened recently.


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## MattTownsend

One of the biggest questions I get in my practice, is "What are all the 'happy couples' doing right?"

Here are the things I have found that seems to work for couples:

1- Happy Couples Understand That Each Partner Carries Their Own Sunshine 
2- Happy Couples See and Share the Positive about Their Partner 
3- Happy Couples Master the Art of the Tough Conversation 
4- Happy Couples Balance the Couple and the Crowd 
5- Happy Couples Reenergize the Marriage with Three Ideas: New, Exciting and Together 

It always sounds easy, but we all know it really isn't. My heart goes out to you and I wish you luck as you try to move forward in your life!


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## Lon

wow, you are staying composed. It is good you are writing this all out, being consistent is what is going to secure your better future, you will be the dad your daughters need and will give you credibility before the judge.


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## maxter

My attorney just called me about the incident friday. He's concerned about her mental stability. I explained the med situation to him. He says ok, but what about the next time she goes without taking them or runs short on money?

He suggested we request the court to require a custody evaluation of the parents. A doctor appointed by the court interviews and evaluates the parents. The girls might be involved also. The cost is $5000 min. And it could take several months in which I cannot leave the marital home. He thinks with her mental issues and past history of outbursts, that I could end up with primary custody. I have my issues too, but I work on them constantly and have erased many bad traits that I had (mainly toward my W). So he feels I present as the more stable parent. If I were to do this, it would take any chance of future R off the table completely.

Regarding her efforts at R, he said it appears the reality of her situation is setting in. I agreed and told him I don't know if her efforts are sincere or just out of desperation. He suggested another path to take would be to request a continuance of the custody suit until a future date pending resolution by W and I. In the meantime I would remain at home and attempt R.

I asked why my intentions for custody of my kids is not clear enough that I can move out. He said I can move out but take the kids or have agreement for at least 50% of the time. If I leave without them or with minimal time, it sends the message that I'm OK with my wife and her parenting abilities & mental stability. It actually works better if I stay at home to prove my concern for the kids given W's irrational behaviors and lack of judgement.

He suggested we get an interim agreement for 50/50 between councel pending future action. That won't happen. She just mentally and rationally doesn't get that I have equal rights/access to our girls.


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## Almostrecovered

wow, what a friggin' nightmare, I am so sorry you have to go through this max


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## aug

maxter said:


> He suggested we get an interim agreement for 50/50 between councel pending future action. That won't happen. She just mentally and rationally doesn't get that I have equal rights/access to our girls.


Oh, she gets it. She just doesnt want you to have 50/50.

The court ordered evaluation may force her to accept the 50/50 instead of taking the chance of losing it. But $5000 is costly. Split cost?

2 months without a period could explain why she had you in a bear hug and asked for a kiss.


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## aug

I am thinking that her actions thus far is consistent with her reality of the divorce and potential pregnancy. She knows she's in a big mess. She desperately wants security.


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## Shaggy

The two months and no period question can be solved with a home pregnancy test.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

Shaggy said:


> The two months and no period question can be solved with a home pregnancy test.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not necessarily. The hormone that spikes that causes positive result doesn't stay elevated for long, so blood test may be required at this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

Shaggy said:


> The two months and no period question can be solved with a home pregnancy test.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. I'm going to broach this subject tonight if possible. I don't know if they used any contraceptives. When asked previously she only said "you have nothing to worry about". And I don't know if he's had a vasectomy either. We shall see.


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## maxter

golfergirl said:


> Not necessarily. The hormone that spikes that causes positive result doesn't stay elevated for long, so blood test may be required at this point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ughhhhh. You've got to be kidding me. If that's true and she won't submit to a blood test, I guess we will know in another month or two when she begins to 'show'. Unless she gets her period sometime in the near future.


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## golfergirl

maxter said:


> Ughhhhh. You've got to be kidding me. If that's true and she won't submit to a blood test, I guess we will know in another month or two when she begins to 'show'. Unless she gets her period sometime in the near future.


I misinformed you - HgC levels do drop but still would show positive. A home test would still be accurate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zsu234

$5000. is what your attorney is charging you. Shop around yourself and find out the true cost.


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## aug

maxter said:


> I agree. I'm going to broach this subject tonight if possible. I don't know if they used any contraceptives. When asked previously she only said "you have nothing to worry about". And I don't know if he's had a vasectomy either. We shall see.


Do you really need to know? It may complicate your divorce more.


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## MrQuatto

in light of the period issue, I would push the D so if she IS preg, she would have to have paternity done to prove you are the father in light of the affair.


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## RunningOnEmpty

You need to carry an mp3 recorder, and keep it on 24x7, just for these type of situations.

Your wife's next step will be to call the cops on you at home and file a DV claim, with a PO to kick you out of the house. You need the recorder on you ASAP.

Also, some judges don't like to award 50/50 if there is high conflict between husband and wife.

And on the (potential) pregnancy, if the child is born while you are still married... you may be liable for child support. Check your state's laws.


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## Almostrecovered

aug said:


> Do you really need to know? It may complicate your divorce more.


Actually yes he does, if she gives birth before the divorce he is on the hook for child support
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

Max,
You're better person than I. I would have watched her crash and burn without meds then declared her unfit.
Not saying you did wrong (and I probably would have helped too) but she's out for her (and sets you up) at the detriment of your children and you look after everyone's well-being. That's why you deserve majority custody. Her goal is to eff you over, you're goal is best of your kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zzyzx

Get the voice recorder and keep it with you. It will save your azz. If she can go ballistic once, she can do it again. Maybe next time she will get a more sympathetic cop.


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## golfergirl

Zzyzx said:


> Get the voice recorder and keep it with you. It will save your azz. If she can go ballistic once, she can do it again. Maybe next time she will get a more sympathetic cop.


Don't ever trust her for sure. She's getting desperate. My fear when she tried to kiss you was that you'd have to push her off you leaving a mark.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

SadSamIAm said:


> I think you should negotiate with your wife.
> 
> Her choice is to undergo the Custody Evaluation of the parents or agree to the 50/50.
> 
> She may realize that her problems vs your improvements put her at a disadvantage in an evaluation. She might agree to the 50/50 which would allow you to move out.
> 
> So sorry you are going through this Max. I hope to hell she isn't pregnant.


Every time I try to negotiate with her, she turns it into a "You're trying to blackmail me" speech. She says I'm trying to force her into a decision she doesn't want. I'm only trying to use what leverage I have to protect my rights as the father and achieve what is best for our kids. Semantics & nuance I suppose.


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## maxter

HALLOWEEN EXCITEMENT-

Wow, last night was full of excitement and action. It was trick or treat night in our town from 6-8pm. I got the girls fed, homework done, and started having them get their costumes on. STBXW comes home early from work and does their makeup and hair and out the door they go. We have alot of stairs leading up to the front door so I go down to the bottom to give out candy so the little tikes don't have to climb all the way up.

As I'm standing there in the driveway I keep getting wiffs of propane or natural gas. There is a slight breeze so it's intermittent. Ten then fifteen minutes go by and the smell is stronger. So now I'm getting worried. My gas grill is right inside the garage door so between herds of kids I rush inside, into the garage and double check the shutoff valve on the tank. It's tight as hell, no smell in the garage either. I go back outside and walk across my yard to the neighbors house to ask him if he's smelled anything. As I cross over, the smell of gas hits me strong, heavy enough to make me gasp alittle. So I turn to the side of my house where my gas meter is located and walk over, sniffing as I go. I can smell gas around the meter area and as I walk right up to it I hear a hissing sound. I kneel down and put my hands around the pipes and feel a stream of gas coming out!!! Holy Sh!t.

So I run inside, grab the phone and the gas bill to call in an emergency. The gas co. dispatches a technician. Meanwhile kids are running all over our development getting candy. It just so happens the local fire dept sets up a rescue truck to hand out candy right near our house each year. So I go over and inform them about the situation and all hell breaks loose. They call in the gas leak, fire dept responds with a tanker truck. They baracade off my street and evacuate the area. My house is lit up like a major league ball field. Fire hoses litter the street ready to put down any fire that might erupt. 

My wife and kids come around the circle in our development and see all this going on. W comes over and asks me what's going on so I tell her. She freaks alittle telling me to go get the girl's pets out of the house. I tell her it's OK, the leak is outside, not inside. She says are you sure, what if the girls bunnies die, they would be devestated. I reassure her they are fine. So she takes the kids on up into town to trick or treat while I deal with the situation at the house. 

It takes the gas tech about 30mins to arrive. He inspects the leak, then turns off the main valve at the street. Then he takes a meter into the house to check for gas. There is a very small concentration in the garage right next to where the meter is located on the outside wall. So we manually open the doors to air it out. The house and surrounding area is deemed safe now. The tech does a closer inspection and determines the riser pipe has cracked underground somewhere and needs to be replaced. Now here's the catch. In my county, the property owner is responsible for the gas line between the street valve and the house! And the type of work requires a state certified plumber of which there are only a handful in the area. So now I'm looking at a $3-4 repair on top of all the other stuff I'm dealing with (D, custody, 2nd household expenses).

The gas tech gives me a list of plumbers to contact so I start making calls and get answering machines of course- it's 8pm at night. My dad calls me to see how this situation is going (I called him at the beginning) and gives me two more names. One is highly recommended, does all my parents work. So I call to see if this guy meets the certification requirements to do the work expecting to get a machine and his wife answers the phone! I tell her the situation and she gets her husband on the line. Nice service! He says he can do the work and is the gas tech still around, he'd like to ask some questions. I tell him yes and get them on the phone together. Gas tech says hi, is this so and so? Plumber says yes. Gas tech says hey buddy how's it going? Turns out they know each other and worked several jobs recently. So the questions get answered and plumber is scheduled to come this morning and start repairs. From their talk it appears the damage is less than first expected and I only need the riser pipe repaired and not the whole gas line replaced. Thank god.

Now, about the STBXW. After the dust settled last night, we're sitting talking about what to do since we have no heat or hot water and she tells me "This is a sign." I ask her what she means. She says "This was a sign we are supposed to be together, to protect each other." Geesh, I guess it could be but who knows? She says "This is a sign from God telling me to get my freakin act together. Because I need you and the girls need you. If you weren't here this could have been real bad. It could have leaked into the house suffocating us overnight, or built up overnight and ignited by a spark." I tell her even if it was a 'sign' that it fixes nothing between us. She tells me she's ready to work on us. I tell her it's alittle too late at this point. I'm moving on emotionally (trying to anyway), filed for D, filed for custody, got my own place, etc. She tells me shes willing to do anything I ask, total transparency, give up her cell if necessary, email access (I told her I can't get access to her company email which concerns me greatly). I told her I think she's just acting out of desperation. She says she can understand why I would think that but it's not true. She says she's ready to work on us and knows it will be very hard work but she's ready to put in the effort.

Our next door neighbor lent us a nice heater so we could stay at home last night. It's just easier with the girls and school and all instead of a hotel room. We agreed this morning that we need to request the 2nd conference tomorrow be rescheduled due to our circumstances. We can't make an 8:30am meeting and get the girls ready for school from a hotel room. So I will be calling my attorny at 9am to request a continuance into next week.

I'm going to be completely honest with myself here. I'm becoming very conflicted this last week since she started coming around. Love can be a very powerful drug. I keep trying to weigh the bad times, her outbursts, her betrayal, the broken trust and everything else negative from our past against the possibility of what could rise up from the ashes of this marriage. I think of the old saying "what doesn't kill you will make your stronger". I don't know. As you can see I'm struggling recently. I'm trying to keep a clear head about this, but her recent coming out of the fog seems to have rekindled a spark of hope within me that I guess never really died out. I'm not sure what direction I want to go anymore. My heart says "take a chance, try to make it work". My logic says "Don't let her fool you again and stomp on your heart. Get away now". If she had come out of the fog like this in May when I confronted her seriously with D, I believe we would be working on our marriage now. Assuming she didn't falter or break NC. Man this is really tough.


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## hesnothappy

Maxter....in my opinion, nothing beats a failure, but a try. I would not be hard hearted even though your wife has created all these problems for the family. Now if I was you I would gage all things as they relate to the other. It would probably be cheaper to keep her as Johnnie Taylor (blues artist) says. Plus you get the benefit of security for your daughters. Now don't go in blind, cause she's got major issues and I don't think she has dealt with them honestly. But don't let pride get in the way of progress. Sometimes moving forward is a crooked street. I will be praying for your discernment on all the issues.


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## Almostrecovered

maxter, HiT's wife also had a "sign from God" to stay in the marriage- the feeling maybe lasted a day or two- just be careful


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## maxter

hesnothappy said:


> Maxter....in my opinion, nothing beats a failure, but a try. I would not be hard hearted even though your wife has created all these problems for the family. Now if I was you I would gage all things as they relate to the other. It would probably be cheaper to keep her as Johnnie Taylor (blues artist) says. Plus you get the benefit of security for your daughters. Now don't go in blind, cause she's got major issues and I don't think she has dealt with them honestly. But don't let pride get in the way of progress. Sometimes moving forward is a crooked street. I will be praying for your discernment on all the issues.


Thank you for the kind words and encouragement. I agree on the trying part. That's why I stayed through 3 1/2yrs of infidelity to try to make things work. I don't believe in just letting a failure happen on its own. I believe in doing everything humanly possible to prevent it. And yes, she's got many issues that need to be dealt with. I have my doubts about her ability to do that given that she was in therapy during the adulterous years but continued with the affair. I don't even know if that issue was part of her counseling. As I've said before, I didn't want to D. I felt I had no choice left after serious events unfolded in August. Events that said to me "There, take that. In your face!" Total disrespect that I and our children didn't deserve.


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## maxter

Almostrecovered said:


> maxter, HiT's wife also had a "sign from God" to stay in the marriage- the feeling maybe lasted a day or two- just be careful


Yes, I remember that. Now her behavior has become very ugly. Hopefully God didn't tell her to try and run him and their son over


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## aug

You should just carry on the divorce till you find out if she pregnant.

Think down the road. Have you decide if you can live with the fact she was with another man for 3.5 years?


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## Shaggy

Yeah, gas leak + her smoking = bad news

Demand she take the preg test today. While you ate both home and show it to you so you can see the results.

If the OM won't take her permanently, she may desperately be looking for you to support the kid?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

I used to work for emergency services (police/fire/ambulance) and spark from a phone (cordless) could even have set off explosion.
Make a list as to what wife has to do for you to stay in. No promises, no guarantees - just take it day by day. The future doesn't have to be decided today. I would lay it out on terms you need - you're in the driver's seat. I would go ahead with the formal legal separation, keep my place, and protect myself legally from her in regards to custody and debt. You don't have to decide today. You can decide to work on things with no promises until it's fixed or you can't do it anymore. Make it clear that working on it doesn't mean bailing her out financially. Let her do that on her own - it means working on the love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vickyyy

I think if she really wants to work on marriage then u should give it a try.


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## lpsscc

vickyyy said:


> I think if she really wants to work on marriage then u should give it a try.


I agree.


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## Zzyzx

It's good she realizes what she is going to miss. So there is some hope here. OTOH, it's very early in the R process.

So ... trust but verify. I would still get the voice recorder. All your other demands for counseling, transparency, accountability, responsibility, etc. stay on the table. I would keep the separate house, do the legal separation and get the custody arrangement through the court. And then move and get started with that lifestyle. Then she will know you are really really serious and she has to go *all in* to have any chance of getting you back. The D can be put on hold at that point while you figure it out with her.

One way to tell her about her conduct: tell her even the most loyal dog will stop coming back if it gets smacked over the head often enough. She needs to know first of all that the crap conduct has to stop. Now. One more outburst as happened at your home inspection and you are done considering R.

Good luck whatever you decide.


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## Lon

Maxter, crazy story! As to W having her sign and saying she is willing to do anything... firstly has she expressed any actual remorse for her actions? Acknowledged she has been making the wrong choices and caused you and your daughters all kinds of cruel suffering?


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## maxter

Lon said:


> Maxter, crazy story! As to W having her sign and saying she is willing to do anything... firstly has she expressed any actual remorse for her actions? Acknowledged she has been making the wrong choices and caused you and your daughters all kinds of cruel suffering?


Yes, she has shown some remorse. The most recent was Friday the 28th later in the evening after the fiasco at my new place. See post #325, excerpt below. This time showed the most sincerity so far. Before this she has only said "I've made some big mistakes." a few times which acknowledges her poor judgment but doesn't connect it with the huge amount of damage she's done to me emotionally. I don't think she's to the point of grasping the severity of it. I still get the sense from her that she only wants R now out of desperation so she doesn't have to share custody, deal with the financial fallout, and be on her own. I get the feeling she wants me to say "Ok honey, let's give us another chance. I'll stay here and not move out or fight you for custody". It sort of feels like rugsweeping in that she wouldn't have to fight for me as hard if I just back off the D and custody.

After a bunch of cigs, she sits on the bed, crying & sobbing uncontrollably. Eventually when she can catch her breath, she apologizes to me! She tells me she's sorry for hurting me so badly. She doesn't want to loose her family, her children, her life. She wants me to stay. She wants to try to save our marriage. She wants to start very slow, with dinner date or movie. No pressure- just take it slowly. She tells me she wants to fall in love with me again like she felt before everything went to hell, before I drank, before I neglected her and pushed her away emotionally.


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## Jellybeans

Has she ended all contact with OM?


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## maxter

Jellybeans said:


> Has she ended all contact with OM?


I'll never really know for sure. And that could be my achilles heal. I may forever wonder if they are talking or texting or whatever behind my back.

I don't think they are in contact but I have no email access (her work or gmail account). I have no cell phone account access. All I do know is she has not called him from her car since that Monday in Sept she skipped work to go see him. She's told me several times the last couple weeks I can check her phone anytime. She has been leaving it lay around in the open, unlocked too.

She's been asking to slowly graduate into R, but I've been blowing her off. So I haven't made any requests for access to email or cell. I want this to come from her rather than me dictating conditions. I did that back in May, layed out all the requirements for R and she didn't do them. So I'm looking for effort from her to show her sincerity and willingness to put in the effort. But at the same time, If I repeatedly slam the door in her face she might give up.


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## maxter

Forgot to mention something. My wife went to see my landlord to apologize for her behavior Friday night during the fiasco at my new place. Although she didn't apologize to me for the same behavior.


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## aug

maxter said:


> I don't think they are in contact but I have no email access (her work or gmail account). I have no cell phone account access. All I do know is she has not called him from her car since that *Monday in Sept she skipped work to go see him*. She's told me several times the last couple weeks I can check her phone anytime. She has been leaving it lay around in the open, unlocked too.


Interesting to note Sept and the 2 months no period?


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## COGypsy

maxter said:


> Yes, she has shown some remorse. The most recent was Friday the 28th later in the evening after the fiasco at my new place. See post #325, excerpt below. This time showed the most sincerity so far. Before this she has only said "I've made some big mistakes." a few times which acknowledges her poor judgment but doesn't connect it with the huge amount of damage she's done to me emotionally. I don't think she's to the point of grasping the severity of it. I still get the sense from her that she only wants R now out of desperation so she doesn't have to share custody, deal with the financial fallout, and be on her own. I get the feeling she wants me to say "Ok honey, let's give us another chance. I'll stay here and not move out or fight you for custody". It sort of feels like rugsweeping in that she wouldn't have to fight for me as hard if I just back off the D and custody.
> 
> After a bunch of cigs, she sits on the bed, crying & sobbing uncontrollably. Eventually when she can catch her breath, she apologizes to me! She tells me she's sorry for hurting me so badly. She doesn't want to loose her family, her children, her life. She wants me to stay. She wants to try to save our marriage. She wants to start very slow, with dinner date or movie. No pressure- just take it slowly. She tells me she wants to fall in love with me again like she felt before everything went to hell, before I drank, before I neglected her and pushed her away emotionally.


That doesn't sound like much of an apology--it still sounds like what she's concerned with is herself. What she'll lose. What you can do for her if you stay. How you can make her fall in love after all the things you did. While you guys "take it slow" which I'm guessing means that you bust your butt to prove your love while she does whatever she wants....

Sounds like a great deal to me :scratchhead:


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## MrQuatto

COGypsy said:


> That doesn't sound like much of an apology--it still sounds like what she's concerned with is herself. What she'll lose. What you can do for her if you stay. How you can make her fall in love after all the things you did. While you guys "take it slow" which I'm guessing means that you bust your butt to prove your love while she does whatever she wants....
> 
> Sounds like a great deal to me :scratchhead:


Also, still sounds like a lot of blame shifting going on there. "Before I drank, Before I neglected her and emotionally pushed HER away."

I would be very wary here Max. She may be starting to wak eup and grasping at whatever she thinks she can yank to keep her personal world from caving in. It is repeatedly said on these boards that, like a drug addict, they most often HAVE to hit bottom to really take recovery seriously. I think she has a bit more rope left.

Q~


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## maxter

Family spent the night in a hotel due to our gas line issue at the marital home. Hopefully it should be fixed by end of today. The girls had a blast swimming in the indoor pool and jacuzi as did I. STBXW brought mexican take out for the two of us. We ate in silence watching the kids splash and swim. After swimming we went up to the room and everyone got showers before bedtime then we watched a disney movie till 10pm before lights out.

This morning I called my attorney to see if the custody conference was rescheduled since neither the W or I ever got a confirmation back about it. It was moved out to Nov 21, 11am. Great! Right before Thanksgiving.

STBXW called this morning after dropping kids off at school and driving by the house to check on the repair progress. It's going well. Now we're just at the mercy of the gas company to send someone out to inspect and turn it back on.

I told her about the new custody conference date. She felt the same way about it being right before Thanksgiving. She commented that getting a trial date before next year is probably not likely and I agree. She says that's good because it won't disrupt the girls holidays. I tell her we shouldn't even need to go Nov 21. She agrees then says what, wait- did I mean I'm not moving out. I tell her no, I mean we should be able to come to an agreement as adults for shared custody without the courts. She sighs, saying she thought I was agreeing to stay put and work on the marriage. I tell her I still want to separate and share custody, but will consider working on us concurrently. She doesn't like that idea. Says how can we work on things if you're not here? I agree to a point. I just don't want to take my options off the table too soon. I don't want to appear too weak or like I'm giving in to her because I've done that so many times in the past for the kids sake.

I tell her that due to the court schedules and such it will be January till we even get into a hearing. And that is past all the concerns she had about moving the kids around, disturbing their holidays, etc. So I asked her what will be her excuse come 2012? She didn't understand at first. I asked her again, what will be your excuse for not sharing custody with me come next year? She only said hopefully it won't matter because I will stay and we can work on our problems together. She reminds me we both have made huge mistakes and hurt each other in many different ways. She says it's now time to learn from those mistakes and put our life back together.

I think moving out w/shared custody puts the most pressure on her to work extremely hard on fixing things. It sends a serious message that I'm willing and ready to move on without her. Second best would be keeping my rental place (have to really, lease is signed) as backup while living at home, working on marriage and leave the D in progress. Not sure what to do about custody part of this though if I remain in the marital home. I may have to discuss options with my lawyer about this scenario.


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## aug

maxter said:


> I tell her that due to the court schedules and such it will be January till we even get into a hearing. And that is past all the concerns she had about moving the kids around, disturbing their holidays, etc. So I asked her what will be her excuse come 2012? She didn't understand at first. I asked her again, what will be your excuse for not sharing custody with me come next year? She only said hopefully it won't matter because I will stay and we can work on our problems together. *She reminds me we both have made huge mistakes and hurt each other in many different ways. * She says it's now time to learn from those mistakes and put our life back together.


I would rank infidelity way above alcoholism.


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## golfergirl

Weird question, but instead of springing for hotel, why didn't you stay in your rental with wife and kids?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

She's not there yet. She's wanting to be rescued. If her goal was to save marriage, she'd take any glimmer of hope and run with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

golfergirl said:


> Weird question, but instead of springing for hotel, why didn't you stay in your rental with wife and kids?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A couple of reasons. First, we haven't talked with the girls yet. They don't know about the custody action or that I have a place of my own. Second, I only have two beds ready to go. Third child's bed is still at marital home. It's just wasn't the appropriate time to hit the kids with all this. They were upset enough about the hazard at home and perceived danger to their pets.


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## maxter

STBXW just emailed me asking for a date this weekend- movie or dinner. I told her no thanks. I can't afford it and not ready emotionally to start doing that, if ever.

This invite comes right after an email spat between us about bills and expenses and how she has no money, I make more than her and she still has to pay bills (her cell, her gas, her cc) plus the kids activities. I reminded her she is not having to pay more than her 25% of the expenses and while she is paying the incidentals I'm covering the large bills & expenses like mortgage, 2nd mortgage, utilities, groceries, my rent, etc.

I have appointments with my IC and Med doctor this week. They can't come fast enough!


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## COGypsy

golfergirl said:


> She's not there yet. She's wanting to be rescued. If her goal was to save marriage, she'd take any glimmer of hope and run with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


Has she actually done anything to "try to save your marriage" other than reminding you of all these many, many ways that you made her do all this stuff and wishing that she could maybe love you like she used to...oh wait....before you did all those hurtful and neglectful things?

I do think it would be wonderful if this were a big wake-up call for a sincere reconciliation attempt, but as someone on the outside that doesn't have the same emotional investment that you do (and should!) have--this sounds like a great deal of lip service and enlightened self-interest on her part, with a lot more entitlement behind it all than action.


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## golfergirl

Honest question:
Do you think she throws the drinking in your face to excuse her disgusting behavior or could it be that she doesn't feel that you get the magnitude of the hurt you caused her?
There's stuff my H has apologized for that he thinks I should just be over and I don't think he understands how what he said or did almost changed me as a person.
Do you think she feels that you get it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CH

maxter said:


> This invite comes right after an email spat between us about bills and expenses and how she has no money


So, why does she finally have a change of heart again?


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## krismimo

Honestly, I will still go along with the divorce proceedings and custody hearing, I hate to say it but she still sounds to me she is trying to get her way and not really listening to HOW YOU FEEL I feel that she is trying to do what she wants or what she feels is best. The next time she brings up her and your past mistakes you should say "Well this is why were here now something needs to change and moving out for me is something I need to do for myself. 
You have to work on yourselves before you can take care of each other. Besides in the long run I think it is more cruel for you to stay in the house with the girls because the longer you stay in there the longer they think that everything is ok which also makes things a bit more confusing, (Although they are still kids and have no idea what is going on) And she keeps throwing things in your face about the girls (which is tacky).


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## krismimo

If you still want to put the divorce on hold I would understand, but you still need to seperate yourself from her you need to know 100 percent what you truly want not being pressured to stay because of obligations. I hope I make sense but sometime you have to take a step back in order to take a step forward. It is hard to seperate yourself from your family I understand that. But lets say for example 6 months from now you play nice and you find out that she continued to talk to OM, or started a new affair? I would not want you to go through that it is so much harder if and when you find out that she was not that sorry and has not really learned her lesson. All this time you have been talking about everyone else, her your girls etc but what about your needs? Think about that.


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## maxter

UPDATE-

STBXW told her lawyer about the incident at my place last Friday. Right after the event she told me she would not tell her and begged me not to tell my attorney as well. So much for that. What's worse is she lied to her lawyer about what happened. She told her she was in a huff and accidentally brushed against the frig, knocking the pictures off. Then she said she followed me outside because I left to call the police and the pictures dropped out of her hand. WTF?! This woman has no integrity or morals. She's just out for herself and will do anything out of desperation to get the most custody she can get or block me from my rightful access to my kids. She told her lawyer I overreacted and that we have had major blowouts in the past, much bigger than this one, and no cops were called. So what? We weren't in the middle of D and custody.

She did tell her lawyer it was a nice place, had all appliances, was mostly furnished and was pretty much ready to go. Her only complaint (and it's not valid) is the place is "close to the road". It's no closer to the street than our marital home. It's a sparsly traveled country road. I mean, come on! Be realistic. she did not mention the barn cats from across the street.

She also told her lawyer she told me she would do anything I asked like give me her cell phone or give it up if I would stay. Seems like maybe lawyer encouraged her to try to reconcile to prevent a court battle. Why would that be? Maybe her case isn't strong enough to block me or prevent me from getting primary? Who knows. In any event my gut is telling me she is NOT sincere and is only desperate at this point. Same question arises about these requests for dates from her. Why? If she wants to talk, I'm home every night and available.

She told her lawyer that I'm just trying to get her back for the affair, to punish her. And she has examples of this from the past. She pondererd if the judge would be able to see that. Honestly, I can't think of any times I was vindictive. Although I can remember several time she was. 

The thing is once again, I feel trapped and controlled by her. I can't move out. Custody dates have been postponed and in all likelyhood we won't have a hearing until Jan next year!!! In the meantime she gets to cake-eat with me staying there, providing financial support, domestic support, child care and all. It just sucks!

I'm seriously thinking about telling the girls about my place. To warm them up to the idea. I would attempt to include STBXW in the conversation first. But if she balks, then I just go ahead and talk to them myself. Then once they know and think about it for awhile, maybe take them over to see it. Then perhaps a few weeks down the road have them stay overnight- like a sleepover. Of course that event would definitely bring out the B!tch in her. Technically she couldn't do anything legally to prevent it. The only issue would be emotional trauma caused by her showing up, attempting to remove the girls, having the police come again and all that. That end scenario is what's holding me back right now. I'm just so tired of all this I'm thinking of forcing the issue from my side. But then I think of my kids and what they would be going through and I back off. It's better for me to endure the suffering than inflict new trauma on them because I'm loosing my patience with the process.


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## golfergirl

maxter said:


> UPDATE-
> 
> STBXW told her lawyer about the incident at my place last Friday. Right after the event she told me she would not tell her and begged me not to tell my attorney as well. So much for that. What's worse is she lied to her lawyer about what happened. She told her she was in a huff and accidentally brushed against the frig, knocking the pictures off. Then she said she followed me outside because I left to call the police and the pictures dropped out of her hand. WTF?! This woman has no integrity or morals. She's just out for herself and will do anything out of desperation to get the most custody she can get or block me from my rightful access to my kids. She told her lawyer I overreacted and that we have had major blowouts in the past, much bigger than this one, and no cops were called. So what? We weren't in the middle of D and custody.
> 
> She did tell her lawyer it was a nice place, had all appliances, was mostly furnished and was pretty much ready to go. Her only complaint (and it's not valid) is the place is "close to the road". It's no closer to the street than our marital home. It's a sparsly traveled country road. I mean, come on! Be realistic. she did not mention the barn cats from across the street.
> 
> She also told her lawyer she told me she would do anything I asked like give me her cell phone or give it up if I would stay. Seems like maybe lawyer encouraged her to try to reconcile to prevent a court battle. Why would that be? Maybe her case isn't strong enough to block me or prevent me from getting primary? Who knows. In any event my gut is telling me she is NOT sincere and is only desperate at this point. Same question arises about these requests for dates from her. Why? If she wants to talk, I'm home every night and available.
> 
> She told her lawyer that I'm just trying to get her back for the affair, to punish her. And she has examples of this from the past. She pondererd if the judge would be able to see that. Honestly, I can't think of any times I was vindictive. Although I can remember several time she was.
> 
> The thing is once again, I feel trapped and controlled by her. I can't move out. Custody dates have been postponed and in all likelyhood we won't have a hearing until Jan next year!!! In the meantime she gets to cake-eat with me staying there, providing financial support, domestic support, child care and all. It just sucks!
> 
> I'm seriously thinking about telling the girls about my place. To warm them up to the idea. I would attempt to include STBXW in the conversation first. But if she balks, then I just go ahead and talk to them myself. Then once they know and think about it for awhile, maybe take them over to see it. Then perhaps a few weeks down the road have them stay overnight- like a sleepover. Of course that event would definitely bring out the B!tch in her. Technically she couldn't do anything legally to prevent it. The only issue would be emotional trauma caused by her showing up, attempting to remove the girls, having the police come again and all that. That end scenario is what's holding me back right now. I'm just so tired of all this I'm thinking of forcing the issue from my side. But then I think of my kids and what they would be going through and I back off. It's better for me to endure the suffering than inflict new trauma on them because I'm loosing my patience with the process.


Don't ever trust her. Get your lawyer to get copy of police report.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hesnothappy

GM Maxter,now this is not sounding like the repentant wife of a few days ago, the issues are glaring right now. She will say and do whatever to better her position. Protect yourself at all times. In the stupid game of marriage/divorce/? it is a back and forth type deal. Unless your W is like mine...clean cut, just give me my freedom LOLOL Take your time and go ahead and maker your plans to live your life. Kids are resilient and will be fine knowing and sharing in the new place.


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## Lon

Maxter, I'm kinda curious how you know all the details of what she is telling her lawyer... that is privileged information is it not? Is she the one telling you what she is telling her lawyer? If so just stop even thinking about it, her own account has shown to be completely innacurate and unreliable. Follow through with your own legal plans, this one will get messy but you have the composition to deal with it she doesn't.


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## maxter

DESPERATION & SIGNS OF REMORSE?

This weekend I started to pack up my personal things around the house. I started in the utility room, then family room, then kitchen, living room and so on. Just my things like knick-knacks, pictures, trinkets, decorations, movies, CD's, wedding dishes, pots & pans, etc. etc. I went through closets & cabinets looking for my things to collect and take over to my place. I made a couple trips over to my place, but all in all it was probably only one car load combined.

Well, this activity really affected STBXW. She kept talking about saving the marriage. She asked me to go to marriage counseling, even after I move out. She pleaded and begged me to give her another chance to prove herself. She said she would do anything I asked of her. She apologized several times, cried alot, said she was sorry for hurting me. She says she now realizes what is important to her. She says she lost her way (just like I did) but now knows her family, kids, and husband are the most important things in her life. She says she was a fool for getting tangled up in the affair. She says it was a huge mistake and she realizes it wasn't worth breaking up our family and wrecking our life.

I continued to rebuff her all weekend. I Tried to explain my position and where my heart is at right now. I told her she doesn't fully understand the depth of the hurt and pain she's caused me, although I can see a glimmer that she might be starting to. She keeps going back to what I've done to her in the past. There is always this equivelancy she makes between my drinking and her affair. And on some levels I can understand it. The difference for me is when things were bad for her she made a horrible, immoral choice. When it switched around and things were bad for me I chose to correct my mistakes, improve myself, and when all hope was crushed this summer, I decided to end the relationship with divorce.

She keeps saying she has until June to turn things around because that's when my lease renews and she feels that if that happens, her chances are gone forever. She says she will continue to fight for us. She's been behaving nicer, no sarcasm or flippant remarks for about 5 days now. She called and asked if I wanted something from McDonald's yesterday. She bought me a laptop cradle as a gift because I always use a plastic service tray to support my computer when I work from home. I rejected the gift. She gave it back to me later in the day so I threw it in the trash. Yesterday she removed it from the trash and I haven't seen it since.

She's been searching the internet lately looking for help in saving our marriage. She came across a self-help type of marriage rebuilder program by Mort Fertel and was giving me information about it and some printouts from the website. Kinda weird since I was doing the same thing throughout the summer without any perceived effect on her part.

I asked her why now? Why this drastic change of heart now after I've been trying for so very long? She reminds me she tried for many years to get through to me while I was drinking heavily but I didn't respond and eventually she gave up. She says it's hard to explain, but that facing the destruction of her family, loosing her kids, loosing me has made her realize how important these things are to her. Again, my concern is this is rooted in desperation and fear of abandonment and not a sincere desire to reconcile.

I have to say, that fear of loosing everything was what did it for me although my epiphany was instantaneous. The day I found the email between STBXW and the other man, I new instantly, in a flash, that I had lost her and my world was about to come apart at the seams. I felt that it was already too late, that I had done such serious damage to our marriage, but I also knew I had to try no matter what the perceived outcome. I had to do it for our daughters and for me because despite the quicksand of negative emotions, thoughts and behaviors that I had sunk into over the years, I still loved her and wanted her.

At least I felt that way until this August when she dealt the final death blow to our marriage and that last thread of hope I had been carrying finally snapped. At that point, as the hope slipped away, so did my feelings for her and my love for her. They just faded away like fog in the morning sun. And all that is left is a single minded determination to end the marriage, separate, and move on with my life. She says she can see that in me now and it scares the sh!t out of her. She says I'm throwing away one last chance to make things work and we should both try to make it through this extremely difficult time in our life for our daughters' sake. She says she married 'for better and for worse'. Funny how that part is important now, but 'forsake all others' didn't hold any weight.

I told her I wouldn't know how to proceed with an attempt at reconciliation at this point. My heart isn't into it anymore, the hope has vanished, the love has faded away. I still care about her, as the mother of my children. But the want, the desire, the love for her has evaporated. At this point I would consider separating and then seeing if we can rekindle something. But that hinges completely on custody and she won't budge. So for me to move out, I will have to tear her down in court, get ugly, drag the girls into it plus all the witnesses and crap. I think after that, we will have just reinforced the animosity between us so much that neither one will want to even look at the other, let alone attempt to reconcile. If we could only come to a mutual custody agreement on our own, without the trauma of a hearing, it would provide the best possibility of future R under the current difficult circumstances.


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## Why Not Be Happy?

not having walked in your shoes----I do not feel I can judge you but.....
She is really trying! Why not sit down with her and talk? See if there can be "something". If "R" really is something you may ever consider I see that opportunity as "NOW".
And throwing away the gift..?..just say thanks. Be gracious. I know you hurt! I know she has been a cruel jerk! She is your wife; she is your kids Mom; I just think if ever there is an opportunity for her to get "IT" with you it is now. Otherwise---just do battle and Divorce.
And even if it seems like I do not----I understand. But living with someone who drinks is hell--- and is extremely difficult, lonely and destructive! Do not under estimate this! 
You are justified in whatever you decide to do.
Good luck.


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## aug

The problem is that maxter tried for more than 3 years. 

After all this time of trying, something eventually broke in him and reconciliation between 2 broken people may be impossible.

Besides, she was still seeing the OM about 2 months ago. And, she might be pregnant with the OM's baby (no period since).


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## ArmyofJuan

I think you are doing the right thing, Max. She acts like this today but if you agreed to an R she could turn cold again in a second once she thinks she has you. She hasn't had enough time to really experience loss to say she has really changed.

Time will tell, she will either become more determined to win you back or if its just a knee-jerk reaction to you leaving will go quiet. She needs to live in the mess she created for a while to truly see what she has lost.


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## maxter

aug- I asked her this weekend if she's gotten her period yet. She said she thinks so but isn't completely sure because it was very light and didn't last long. That is unusual for her in addition to missing two in a row. 

Army- I agree with letting her live with it awhile to see if she really wants 'us'. And that will give me some time to sort myself out as well. I'm not really feeling the desire to R right now. Every once in a while the feeling of wanting her, needing her washes over me but it doesn't last as long as it used to. Maybe I'm getting the hang of 'just letting her go'.


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## maxter

We just got the bill for our gas line repair. Almost $1900! I call in to check the available credit on our HELOC. I know we've (well I have) been making monthly payments on it and there should be about $1200 in there which would make a nice dent in this expense. And I find out the STBXW withdrew $1100 back on Oct 7th. We have no money to pay this bill! Just freakin' wonderful! Now it makes sense. She used the HELOC money and some of her Christmas Fund money to pay the attorney retainer fee. This sucks, big time. We have a huge bill due in 30 days and no way to pay for it. I'm going to have her call and try to setup a payment plan. We are soooo screwed.


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## Lon

max, you have any other joint accounts still open with her? Close em up if you do... If you proceed with separation agreement you may be able to have your lawyer include the money she withdrew for herself on your LOC in the settlement, though not sure if that will be soon enough for payment due date...


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## Why Not Be Happy?

I support Max's decision (and understand it). I was just throwing it out there that if R was ever an option that this might be the time to try it. No judgement. I completely get the fact it just may be too late. Sucks about the bill too.


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## maxter

I told my STBXW to call the plumber and setup a payment schedule since she's the one that spent our emergency money on her lawyer. She called the plumber about it but we haven't heard back yet whether they will agree to it.

After I complained about her misuse of funds she tells me her situation was an emergency. I countered by explaining an emergency is something you cannot plan for (ie. gas leak). Retaining an attorney is not such an example. She knew the divorce was coming if she didn't change her behaviors because I told her so starting in May and then reminded her repeatedly throughout the summer. Since she chose not to make any changes in behavior all summer long, she should have been saving up for the impending divorce. I gave her plenty of notice ahead of time to prepare for this. I know I'm browbeating her, but I'm p!ssed about this situation. It's just more debt we cannot climb out of while supporting two households on our limited salaries. We're sinking deeper and I haven't even moved out yet which will incurr additional expenses. She finally said she has changed her behaviors (recently) just not on my timeline.

Last night when she got home from work, I had everything done with the girls. All their homework was finished, supper made and cleaned up, bedtime routine started. I was laying down in the bedroom watching TV and she comes in and starts talking again about R. Pleading with me to give her one last chance. Telling me she can never apologize enough for what she's done to me. I ask her what does she want me to do? I'm on the D train, rented a place to live, furnished it, filed for custody, etc. I told her again I want to move out, get settled in and then see if anything can be done about us.

She's adamant about not disrupting our kids lives with a separation and shared custody between two homes. She fears this would push our one daughter over the edge who is rather fragile emotionally. This is my daddy's girl who always worries about me when I leave the house to get milk or gas. Even when I'm in the house and she can't easily find me because I'm in another room doing something she freaks out alittle. I think it's a subconcious fear of abandonment manifesting itself within her. She's had nightmares the past month about me getting hurt or being taken away. Really wierd stuff.

STBXW tells me she called and made MC appointments. Wow, that's bold. I haven't even agreed to go. She told me it's up to me if I go, but she at least made the appointments. Funny thing is she made them with the same counselor that got upset with her for lying in session and dropped us via phone call and formal letter. I asked her why choose the same person? She says "you liked her right?". I say yes. She says "I'm OK with her too." I doubt the counselor will take us back. So most likely she will have to choose another MC. Another issue is the first available with the old MC is January. That sucks because that would be after the 2nd custody conference and possibly after the custody hearing. STBXW and I both do not want to go through a custody hearing. But neither one of us will budge on our position either.

I was hoping to be able to negotiate with her to move the custody issue and separation along by agreeing to certain conditions. For example she wants the kids 'home' for the holidays and not being moved back and forth. I could agree to that. I've tried talking about a transition from the marital home to shared custody between both homes so that it is not an abrupt change. And I would agree to MC early next year after I move out and we have a coparenting schedule setup. But she wants me to stay put and work on the marriage, without the physical & emotional disruption caused by me moving out. At times it seems we are sooo close to figuring a way out of this but then, poof!, it dissappears right before our eyes.


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## hesnothappy

Maxter, just stay focused and pray.


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## maxter

STBXW BARES HER THROAT (OR EXTENDS OLIVE BRANCH?)

Last night STBXW wanted to talk about finances. She got the plumber to agree to three payments instead of one lump sum. So we have three months to pay him back. Which doesn't really help all that much. While we don't have $1900 all at once, we still don't have $633 to spare each month either. There is $300 left in our home equity and she gets paid a $300 lump sum in Jan for one of her side cleaning jobs. So there's part of it. But the rest we just don't have. My parents offered to loan me my half but don't want to loan the whole amount because they fear she will never pay her part back. And on top of all this, 'we' still owe $275 for her colonoscopy procedure. It was supposed to be covered by our health spending account but unfortunately other expenses, doctors visits and meds used up the amount that was set aside, leaving part of this bill unpaid.

So under all this financial & emotional pressure she caves last night. She tells me this cannot go on. She says she will call her lawyer and request the remainder of her retainer fee back and use that to pay down the repair bill. She tells me she won't fight me on custody anymore. She says "You win, you've beat me. I can't afford to fight you through court battles and you will take it there no matter what." So I tell her I will work up a proposal and have it sent over to be signed. This discussion happened right after supper.

Then at bedtime, we're laying there and she begins to apologize again. She says she can't truly know the depth of the hurt she's caused me because she can't feel what I'm feeling. But she says she can relate to it because she was deeply hurt in the past by me. I agree with that. The things I did and said to her years ago were horrible and abusive and surely inflicted emotional pain similar to what I'm experiencing. She tells me she's so sorry for what she has done to me and wants a chance to repair it if only I will let her. She's trying and trying to persuade me that she is sincere in her efforts to save the marriage.

She told me she sent an apology email to our old MC in hopes she would take us back into therapy. And she apologized to my landlord for her misbehavior last week. It appears she is attempting to atone for her recent mistakes and take responsibility for her behaviors.

So what should I do? Strike while the iron is hot? I could wait till she drops her lawyer, then continue with the Nov 21 custody conf without her or her lawyer and basically get my way because she's absent and without representation. Or I could have a custody agreement written up the way I want it and have her sign it (if she really would, I don't know).

I've been thinking about the timing of all this with the girls and holidays coming up. Even if I got primary custody tomorrow, I don't think I would uproot them immediately anyway. I'm thinking of holding off until January so we get through the holidays with some semblence of normalcy and family togetherness. There's only a month and a half left in this year and yanking the kids out of their home, splitting up the parents right at this time just doesn't feel right.

And there is this little tidbit. The wall I built up around my heart is starting to show tiny cracks. Deep down I don't want our family or life to fall apart. I never did. But I felt pushed to my limit and was left with no other choice but to file for D. My attorney called me yesterday to see how I was doing and if there were any new developments. I explained to him that she is showing a change of heart and attitude. He said he's seen this lots of times where the filing for D or custody makes the reality of the situation hit home hard and shakes the WW out of their funk. He's seen where in the thick of the D process the WW spouse finally sees the light, understands what they are going to loose, and wants to postpone any proceedings to see if the relationship can be saved.

So I don't know at this point. I think the STBXW is really trying the best she knows how on her own. There are things she could be doing that would help but I haven't told her because I'm not sure of my direction anymore. I don't see any sense in telling her "I want this, this and this" if I'm not committed to attempting R.

Hmmm, what to do? Accept the olive branch or strike fast?


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## Shaggy

If there ever was a time to R it is now. She is broken, she is fully facing the consequences of her lies, and she is a vunerabke as she ever will be.

If there is any hope of keeping the family together and building a new marriage this would be the time to step up and do it.

Impose whatever rules you need, go to whatever theron is needed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ArmyofJuan

I'd have a wait and see attitude. This is a good first step but I think its too early. Jumping too soon sometimes scares them off.

When they see that you will cave easily a lot of times they pull back again once they realize they still have some control over you.

If she is sincere, she won't change her mind so you have time to see if she means it or if she is just reacting out of fear of being alone. She has to want to be with you out of love, not convenience.


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## Almostrecovered

do both if you want to give it one last shot, continue with the D proceedings and go to MC at the same time

I'm with Juan, motivations mean a lot


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## golfergirl

maxter said:


> STBXW BARES HER THROAT (OR EXTENDS OLIVE BRANCH?)
> 
> Last night STBXW wanted to talk about finances. She got the plumber to agree to three payments instead of one lump sum. So we have three months to pay him back. Which doesn't really help all that much. While we don't have $1900 all at once, we still don't have $633 to spare each month either. There is $300 left in our home equity and she gets paid a $300 lump sum in Jan for one of her side cleaning jobs. So there's part of it. But the rest we just don't have. My parents offered to loan me my half but don't want to loan the whole amount because they fear she will never pay her part back. And on top of all this, 'we' still owe $275 for her colonoscopy procedure. It was supposed to be covered by our health spending account but unfortunately other expenses, doctors visits and meds used up the amount that was set aside, leaving part of this bill unpaid.
> 
> So under all this financial & emotional pressure she caves last night. She tells me this cannot go on. She says she will call her lawyer and request the remainder of her retainer fee back and use that to pay down the repair bill. She tells me she won't fight me on custody anymore. She says "You win, you've beat me. I can't afford to fight you through court battles and you will take it there no matter what." So I tell her I will work up a proposal and have it sent over to be signed. This discussion happened right after supper.
> 
> Then at bedtime, we're laying there and she begins to apologize again. She says she can't truly know the depth of the hurt she's caused me because she can't feel what I'm feeling. But she says she can relate to it because she was deeply hurt in the past by me. I agree with that. The things I did and said to her years ago were horrible and abusive and surely inflicted emotional pain similar to what I'm experiencing. She tells me she's so sorry for what she has done to me and wants a chance to repair it if only I will let her. She's trying and trying to persuade me that she is sincere in her efforts to save the marriage.
> 
> She told me she sent an apology email to our old MC in hopes she would take us back into therapy. And she apologized to my landlord for her misbehavior last week. It appears she is attempting to atone for her recent mistakes and take responsibility for her behaviors.
> 
> So what should I do? Strike while the iron is hot? I could wait till she drops her lawyer, then continue with the Nov 21 custody conf without her or her lawyer and basically get my way because she's absent and without representation. Or I could have a custody agreement written up the way I want it and have her sign it (if she really would, I don't know).
> 
> I've been thinking about the timing of all this with the girls and holidays coming up. Even if I got primary custody tomorrow, I don't think I would uproot them immediately anyway. I'm thinking of holding off until January so we get through the holidays with some semblence of normalcy and family togetherness. There's only a month and a half left in this year and yanking the kids out of their home, splitting up the parents right at this time just doesn't feel right.
> 
> And there is this little tidbit. The wall I built up around my heart is starting to show tiny cracks. Deep down I don't want our family or life to fall apart. I never did. But I felt pushed to my limit and was left with no other choice but to file for D. My attorney called me yesterday to see how I was doing and if there were any new developments. I explained to him that she is showing a change of heart and attitude. He said he's seen this lots of times where the filing for D or custody makes the reality of the situation hit home hard and shakes the WW out of their funk. He's seen where in the thick of the D process the WW spouse finally sees the light, understands what they are going to loose, and wants to postpone any proceedings to see if the relationship can be saved.
> 
> So I don't know at this point. I think the STBXW is really trying the best she knows how on her own. There are things she could be doing that would help but I haven't told her because I'm not sure of my direction anymore. I don't see any sense in telling her "I want this, this and this" if I'm not committed to attempting R.
> 
> Hmmm, what to do? Accept the olive branch or strike fast?


Before the drinking. Before the affair - what was your wife like? Was she a liar and sneak? 
I would get everything signed off and stay where you are until things improve or you have to leave because she hasn't changed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Why Not Be Happy?

My vote is to get together with her alone-----address the bad (on both your accounts) and then tell her exactly what you want (you could make it better than ever). Have someone watch the kids and have some real time to talk with no distractions. Talk about what you guys want for marriage and family life going forward.....
Just my vote. Good luck!


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## maxter

golfergirl said:


> Before the drinking. Before the affair - what was your wife like? Was she a liar and sneak?
> I would get everything signed off and stay where you are until things improve or you have to leave because she hasn't changed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, she was not a liar or a sneak back then. She was open with me about everything. She never tried to hide anything from me. She was very loving and giving to me and my family. The only 'issue' from our early years was her over the top emotional reactions to anxiety. Anxiety stemming from problems we had as a couple or arguments that we got into. Sometimes she would go batsh!t crazy during a fight (very scary). But thankfully the meds she's been taking for years has fixed that.


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## hesnothappy

I would get somewhere and be real quiet and let God send you the answer to your heart. Your W has personal issues she needs to work out and I wouldbe leary till she sees her true self, and either aknowledges it and if she finds fault, work on it or not. If you don't get ready to go through this again in a few years when the soreness has worn out. If financially you would be better off living as a family and you still love if not respect her, I see nothing wrong with sacraficin for your family. Best of everything to you all.


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## Unsure in Seattle

Get your kids. Get your divorce. If she's serious about R, she can work on it when you've protected yourself and your kids from her harmful, destructive actions.

You improved yourself. She hasn't. Period.


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## HaHa

Honestly, I would go ahead and the custody, etc. in writing, etc. just in case she changes her mind again or something else happens. At least that way you do have that already no matter what you decide. That is basically to just cover you and your rights with your kids moving forward. I can understand about not wanting to move your kids until after the holidays, but at least if things go south in the next couple of months you are covered. If you want to try R, then at least if it doesn’t work, you already have the precedent set on what will happen with custody. If she has really hit bottom, then why would she sign the custody agreement you draw up if she has already agreed to it? Just my two cents.


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## aug

get the custody settled.

still keep divorce going - you still have lots of time left in the process and you'll never know what may happen down the road. A couple of weeks before the finalization of the divorce revisit the reconciliation idea.

If you decide to reconcile, get a post-nup so there wont be this issue of custody, finance, etc if things dont work out.

She hasnt said (or prove) what has become of the OM. Whether the OM is still pursing her. Whether she has the OM in the backburner. You still dont know if she's pregnant.

You dont know if she's staying with you out of financial reasons. Her heart may not be in it?

Lot of questions remain?


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## maxter

Tonight I'm going to feel out my STBXW to see if she still agrees not to fight me over custody. It's been 24hrs so she may have changed her mind already. If she's still open to the idea of equal custody, I will have my attorney write it up and submit for her to review & hopefully sign.

Even with that out of the way, I've decided to stay put in the marital home until after the holidays for our kids sake. I don't want to uproot them and disrupt their lives during this time. It's too important to them spiritually and emotionally to do that to them. I've suffered through this long, I can make it another seven weeks for them.

As far as R goes, I'm not sure what to do. She invited me out for a bite to eat and bowling this Friday (no kids). I agreed to go. Our very first date 13 1/2yrs ago was bowling. Strange but I can still remember the exact outfit she wore. Coincidence? I don't think so.


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## maxter

aug said:


> get the custody settled.
> 
> still keep divorce going - you still have lots of time left in the process and you'll never know what may happen down the road. A couple of weeks before the finalization of the divorce revisit the reconciliation idea.
> 
> If you decide to reconcile, get a post-nup so there wont be this issue of custody, finance, etc if things dont work out.
> 
> She hasnt said (or prove) what has become of the OM. Whether the OM is still pursing her. Whether she has the OM in the backburner. You still dont know if she's pregnant.
> 
> You dont know if she's staying with you out of financial reasons. Her heart may not be in it?
> 
> Lot of questions remain?


Yes, I'm going to attempt to settle the custody issue. Hopefully she stays open-minded long enough to sign it.

I am not going to retract or stop the D. It's still ticking along and will for two years. Without action by one party or the other, it will expire at the end of two years from date of filing.

Yes, I have questions about the OM yet. She told me he's not interested in a committed relationship (at least with her). She told me he's too busy with his life, work and three boys and doesn't have time for her. Honestly, I think she did most of the pursuing later in the affair. I think she fell in love with him at some point. He was definitely interested early on, but then he started seeing other women, his marriage fell apart, and now he's got his kids most of the time.

Still not sure on the pregnancy issue. If/when she gets a full period or starts to 'show' I'll know for sure. Haven't been able to bring it into a conversation yet to ask more detailed questions. I have to say though from her demeaner she doesn't appear to be worried about the possibility of pregnancy. She told me it's just stress affecting her ovulation. Like it's no big deal or anything.

Is her heart really into it? I don't know. My sincerity meter is working overtime trying to figure it out. I can say that she has never put this much effort into R during past attempts. So that's alittle encouraging.


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## maxter

I talked with STBXW about custody again to see if she still had the same frame of mind as Tuesday when she told me should wouldn't fight me over custody anymore. She asked me why. I told her if we are in agreement to sharing equal custody, I will have a proposal written up and sent to her attorney for review/approval. I reminded her that I agreed not to move out during the holidays for the girls sake just as she wanted.

Well, she changed her tune of course. She says she really hasn't thought deeply enough about it and there is more that we need to discuss. She wants to put it on hold till next year. I told her I want to proceed and get this behind us and run the divorce & custody arrangement in parallel with any attempts to R. I told her I don't want to stop it or put it on hold only to find out 3 or 6 months from now I have to start all over again. She says she can understand that. So... the saga continues with more pointless discussion.


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## Almostrecovered

her actions indicate she more afraid of the divorce itself than it is about losing you, good thing you arent putting the brakes on


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## maxter

UPDATE- (AFTER DATE NIGHT):

Friday night was our 'date' night. Early signs were troubling. The babysitter called me at the last minute to cancel due to illness even though W had setup the times. I called W to let her know and she was disappointed of course. So we scrambled, made some quick calls and found another sitter on short notice.

Our girls knew we were going out for a date, and they insisted I dress nicely. So I changed out of my work clothes and put on nice dress slacks and a burgundy sweater that I know my W likes. When she came home from work to pick me up she gave me a big, long hug and thanked me for agreeing to go out. She thought I was going to decline due to the 180 I've been implementing. As we stepped apart from the hug, with our arms still extended, she paused for a moment and looked deep into my eyes. Our gaze locked and a spark of connection happened. It was just a fleeting moment in time but she moved in to kiss me gingerly on the lips. I kissed her back more firmly until we engaged in a long passionate kiss. After the initial spark, I did feel a bit awkward and she could tell I was uncomfortable so we stopped and she said "Let's go."

We went to a small local restaurant and had a nice dinner. Made small talk about work and our kids. We lightly discussed our situation. We couldn't get into it deeply because other patrons were close by our table. She expressed regret for what she has done and apologized again for hurting me. She said she doesn't know where it will lead but she will continue to try to show me she's sincere about us and that her family is now her priority. She said this (D, custody, & my rental place) was her wake up call to reevaluate her life and to decide what she really wants from it. She told me the affair was just a fantasy and it's over for good. She told me she is very relieved I have decided to stay home through the holidays and she wants me to stay longer. She's scared that after the new year I will up and move out which will divide us further and make it very difficult if not impossible to work on our relationship.

We finished dinner and went to the local bowling alley. Unfortunately it was league night and no lanes were available. She suggested another alley in a town close by about 20min drive. So we drove there and they had lanes available. We only had time to bowl two games before we needed to leave to get back home to let the baby sitter go. But it was fun and light-hearted. We joked around a bit and talked about random things. She complimented me on the sweater I was wearing saying I look very handsome and I look good in burgundy.

Saturday was a good day for the whole family. But the morning started off with alot of emotion from my W. The kids were up and about. We were just lying in bed, awake, enjoying the moment of peace and quite. She was facing away from me. I reached over and put my hand on her shoulder. She put her hand over mine. I have missed that contact, the light touches, the affirmation that we are thinking about each other. She rolled over toward me, burried her head in my chest and began sobbing heavily. I just held her tightly, rubbing her back softly. Between sobs when she can catch her breath, she tells me she feels extremely ashamed of what she's done and how much she's hurt me and affected our family. She tells me she's sorry for loosing herself in a fantasy. She tells me I am what she wants and she realizes that now. I've never seen this level reflection of what she's done and expression of sorrow & remorse from her in years past when attempting to R. It felt genuine to me. After awhile she calmed down and we got up to start our day.

The tension that had been hanging in the air was gone and everyone seemed to be open and receptive to each other. It was like a huge weight had been lifted off of our family and we could breathe again. W had a cleaning job so I took daughters to horse riding lesson. A friend of her's from school was there finishing her lesson so the teacher let them ride together. It was fun watching the two girls practice and have a little competitiveness between them. Late afternoon, W & I took the girls to Toy's R Us to look around and work on their christmas lists. Boy were they busy writing! They each have a letter size page full of items. This may be their last year of believing in Santa so it's fun to watch them preparing for the season and getting excited.

Sunday was what we call a 'stay at home day', where we have no where to go, no errands to run. We just stay around the house and relax as much as possible. Sometimes the girls pop in a DVD and we watch a moving together, all crammed into our king size bed. Not this time though. The girls were doing their own things while the W cleaned the house and I worked on the yard (leaves and storm damage cleanup). W cooked a delicious supper for us all. Overall it was a relaxing day and nice to simply be around home.

At bedtime I was able to ask the W about being pregnant. She said no, she's not pregnant. I said what about the missed periods? She said she's pretty sure she got a light one after thinking about it more. And she recently switched 'pills' because the ones she was taking were not controlling the cycles like the doctor wanted. Plus she attributes all the stress she's been under to affecting her cycles. Like I said before, she doesn't exhibit any stressors in her voice or body language that tells me she's either hiding something or concerned about pregnancy.

So where am I at with all this? That is a very good question. One I have been struggling with internally for the past week or more. I need to get my head straight and choose a path. I have two looming deadlines that will be affected by what I choose. I have to decide whether to setup a health spending account for the family for 2012 by the 20th. If I separated I wasn't going to because I would need the extra money for expenses and would have to pay copays out of pocket as we go. We have our second custody conference on the 21st where the judge is expecting a resolution from us (yeah right). W feels that if I agree to R and we're working on us, then we don't need to decide custody. She feels that if I had custody I could move out at anytime. I told her I would not move out on a whim, only if we decided our rebuilding wasn't working out. I hate having this feeling that she might be doing all this to derail the custody claim. I'm gun-shy from previous times trying to work things out with her, although this time her efforts appear the most sincere I've ever gotten from her. It's just this nagging feeling in the back of my mind that I can't shake off.

As some posters said, it appears she is or has come to understand the reality of all this and what is going to happen when I move out and on with my life. I've shown her I'm capable of pulling the trigger and doing it. She knows this is the very last time she might get a chance to make it work. And she's begging for it. I still have a couple days to contemplate this whole situation. But I'm leaning toward a full blown R effort at this point. I mean, this is like the last breath of our marriage and 'we' better take it in deep and hold it for as long as possible or it will come to an end.


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## Almostrecovered

well maxter, she certainly sounds truly remorseful at this point and whether or not you do decide to R you have gotten something that all too many betrayed spouses don't ever get.

there is nothing wrong with giving it one last shot if you get this remorse and no shame in it if you ask me. 

there's lots of work to be done still, but the most important and biggest step was finally made.

I would start making some things very clear to her if you make that plunge to attempt R-

1) Have her hand write a no contact letter to the OM. If he ever contacts her again then she must ignore it and tell you about it right away.
2) let her know that in order for you to rebuild trust that she must be completely transparent now. She has to give up passwords, emails, let you look at her phone, tell you where she is going and when she'll be home. etc. 
3) she must continue demonstrating her remorse through not only her words but her actions. She must answer any and all questions you have about the affair repeatedly and truthfully. She must own up to the affair 100% (which she is finally starting to state)
4) you both need to start spending more alone time together so you can rebond. Make all needs and wants clear and both cannot be afraid to express your true feelings.


good luck, I hope whatever path you take is filled with better times than the past year or so


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## NotLikeYou

Well, Maxter, we've already established that you have more patience than a saint to have put up with what you have for as long as you have. I'm a big believer that previous behavior is a good predictor of future behavior.

Your wife has shown a steady pattern of doing what she has to do to cheat, and showering verbal and emotional abuse on you. Unfortunately, your previous behavior has been.... to take it. 

Here's hoping that both of you will change for the better during your reconciliation. In reading your descriptions of your interactions with your wife, she always seemed real erratic about things, in a "deep seated psychological problem" kind of way. Based on that, may I humbly suggest that, in addition to the 4 things Almostrecovered listed, that you add

5) Lots and lots of counseling for her to help her understand the basis for her destructive and abusive behavior.

And I still think you need to keep a VAR in your pocket ready to roll, but it's up to you.

You're a really nice guy, and I hope things work out for you. And I hope that future updates are like this one today, filled with better experiences!


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## aug

I think you should still proceed with the custody hearing and try to firm something up.

It'll be a reminder to your wife to keep behaving herself.

btw, do you know how you are going to be handling the mind imagery that will always be there of your wife and the OM?


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## Laba

I have been following your post all along and I am in disbelieve you actually think you will be able to trust her, at least following your story - I didn't see one honest bone in your wife's body and I am sorry to say but reading your update I almost look at it as a good actress performance on her part for whatever purpose she has in mind at this point.... I HOPE I AM WRONG!!!!! Success with anything you do and decide in future but keep in mind the saying, once a lier always a lier, once a cheater *********....


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## maxter

aug said:


> I think you should still proceed with the custody hearing and try to firm something up.
> 
> It'll be a reminder to your wife to keep behaving herself.


That is what I would prefer. But I also know if I push this all the way to a court hearing, the gloves will come off and it will get very ugly. And that will certainly put an end to any chance at R. If I truly want to R (and I'm leaning heavily that way) then I need to back off the custody issue. It's not a huge deal, just would have been nice to have that behind us and as you stated it would be a comfort for me knowing she has that reminder to behave. Not sure I'm willing to sacrifice a possibility of R for something I can deal with later if necessary.



aug said:


> btw, do you know how you are going to be handling the mind imagery that will always be there of your wife and the OM?


Well, I have been able to put it out of my mind.....UNTIL NOW!


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## maxter

Almostrecovered & NotLikeYou-

I agree with all your points. These conditions are a must for me. She did start back into IC, with two sessions recently. And we have MC scheduled but no openings till January. When I make the final decision to work on R, I will write these out and discuss it with her face to face to make sure my requirements are perfectly clear.


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## maxter

Laba said:


> I have been following your post all along and I am in disbelieve you actually think you will be able to trust her, at least following your story - I didn't see one honest bone in your wife's body and I am sorry to say but reading your update I almost look at it as a good actress performance on her part for whatever purpose she has in mind at this point.... I HOPE I AM WRONG!!!!! Success with anything you do and decide in future but keep in mind the saying, once a lier always a lier, once a cheater *********....


I can understand your perspective from what I've written. And she has done false R in the past with similar acting. But I have to say her feelings, remorse, and apologies are coming across as being sincere. We still have a long way to go before I will begin to feel comfortable about it. I think if/when she starts to meet my requirements for true R I will have a better feeling for where she's at. In some ways I feel more positive about it because she has given me the one thing I thought I may never get and that is showing remorse and apologizing (repeatedly).


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## Almostrecovered

maxter said:


> I think if/when she starts to meet my requirements for true R I will have a better feeling for where she's at.



best way to approach this, imo

you're strong enough to know what is real R and false R now


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## Why Not Be Happy?

I support your decision to try and R. Good luck!


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## Hicks

Have you thought about a Post Nuptual Agreement?


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## Unsure in Seattle

I don't see how you can possibly tell if she's truly remorseful and and wants to work things out or if she's just scared that you'll win in court and doesn't know how to cope on her own. How could you live that way... always wondering? I don't think I could.

If she wants to reconcile with you so badly, she'll still want to do it after you're divorced.

Just my two cents. I'm just a dude on the internet.  I'm not one of these "DIVORCEPOLYGRAPHARRGH" people... but I do think that sometimes something can be so broken that you can't fix it- all you can do is completely start over.

PS- I don't think it'd be inappropriate to purchase a home pregnancy test. Just for everyone's piece of mind.


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## krismimo

Oh boy. (My apologies ahead of time,if my tone seems disrespectful) Ok from what I read on here so far your wife sounded unstable, spoiled, stubborn, manipulative, self serving, and selfish. Here is the problem, I do think (To a certain extent) that she is breaking down her walls and she is sorry, but what she is sorry for and if she is truly sorry is hard to discern. 

In my previous relationship, my ex would beg, cry, say all kinds of things that seemed sincere I mean to the point where he had me fooled, sure he would stop for awhile, but then he would start up again in a few months, it was a visious cycle that I'm happy to be no longer part of. 

In other words, I know the holidays are hard and I respect for your children that you don't just want to rip them apart the lives theyre use to. Divorce is not always a convient thing it is tidious, time consuming, heart breaking and down right expensive. So you fold, and you bend, and then you start thinking like "well maybe she is sorry and changing." I get it, however you still need to go forward with going to the custody hearing it does not have to be nasty unless she wants it to be. 

You need to protect yourself no matter what, look at it this way lets say everything goes fine and after the holidays are over and around march-april, she starts up again with someone else, and or she isn't helping you with the issues that need to be addressed then you right back where you started. I hate to say it I really do but my gut tells me that your wife is...playing you. I hope that you guys can reconcile it would be great but I don't think your being realistic about the situation. 

You mentioned before that you would probably drop the hearing because of chance of getting back together, unless she SHOWS you not tell you what is going on You still have the right to say you know what? I want to believe you honey I really do, this is just insurance for me just in case things don't go that way. Besides she put you in that situation and if she can't understand that without having a fit then her loss. 

I feel that your not exactly taking it lightly in your choices or you wouldn't be here. But look at it this way if you wife acts up in the next few months (And I think she will) you would have to proceed regardless. Mind as well start this thing and finsih it, you can put a hold on the divorce but you should def go ahead with the hearing. Don't ge me wrong I feel she is sorry but I feel she is sorry for different reasons.


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## hesnothappy

Maxter I am praying for you and your marriage. I think this is a start to your W recognizing and apologizing and atoning for her past behavior. There are always three sides to every story , your, hers, and the truth ;o) I think you owe it to yourselves and your children to try to stay together. Too bad your choices have in the ended cost you financially, but together you can make it easier than apart. You have a lot of soul searching that you should be doing. Good Luck to you both


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## RunningOnEmpty

Maxter, your W is either sincere in her reconciliation efforts or she is not.

If she is sincere, she should not mind settling the custody issue now. If you guys are on the path of recovery, you get the custody signed and filed, and then simply ignore it, and continue living together, rebuilding, etc.

If she is not sincere..... you know the answer here.

Right now she is a salesman, offering you the carrot of reconciliation, IF you drop the hearing.

Explain to her, honey, I believe you are sincere, but I want us to reconcile for the right reasons, so let's proceed to the hearing, settle the custody issue, and then we continue onto reconciling and spending the holidays together.


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## Lon

RunningOnEmpty said:


> Maxter, your W is either sincere in her reconciliation efforts or she is not.
> 
> If she is sincere, she should not mind settling the custody issue now. If you guys are on the path of recovery, you get the custody signed and filed, and then simply ignore it, and continue living together, rebuilding, etc.
> 
> If she is not sincere..... you know the answer here.
> 
> Right now she is a salesman, offering you the carrot of reconciliation, IF you drop the hearing.
> 
> Explain to her, honey, I believe you are sincere, but I want us to reconcile for the right reasons, so let's proceed to the hearing, settle the custody issue, and then we continue onto reconciling and spending the holidays together.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Yep, whether or not she is sincere is not enough reason for you to let her set your agenda. If anything you should be using her apparent remorse as a way to "negotiate" custody in your favor... if she takes exceptions to continuing this simply say it needs to be done because of her track record of breaking the trust. Just because she may be genuinely remorseful does not mean you have to put all your trust back in her again, in fact you'd be foolish to.


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## golfergirl

Lon said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> Yep, whether or not she is sincere is not enough reason for you to let her set your agenda. If anything you should be using her apparent remorse as a way to "negotiate" custody in your favor... if she takes exceptions to continuing this simply say it needs to be done because of her track record of breaking the trust. Just because she may be genuinely remorseful does not mean you have to put all your trust back in her again, in fact you'd be foolish to.


I have to say I agree. It's time for her to trust you. Get custody signed off and keep living there until either she has proven herself one way or the other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## krismimo

That is exactly the point I made, so ai also agree with Lon


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## maxter

Guys, I really appreciate all the feedback and different perspectives. This is probably the second most difficult decision I need to make after filing for D.

We talked ALOT last night and this morning about the custody issue. We do have a much better understanding of each other but no solution. She's afraid to settle with a custody agreement for fear I will immediately pack up and leave. She says it feels to her like she's giving up her kids. I've told her that is not my intention but she's still rightfully scared of that happening given that I have my rental place ready to move into. IAnd 'm afraid she's not being sincere in her efforts and words and is only doing this to keep me at home and postpone any custody arrangement. She say's that is not what she's doing, but can understand why I don't trust her.

We both don't trust each other and cannot overcome our individual fears. That leaves us deadlocked without a clear path. So in my opinion, one of us has to take a LEAP OF FAITH and commit without having something tangible to hold on to. I can't explain how difficult that would be for me. It's a mental block right now that I can't seem to find a way over or around.

At this point, I don't know what else to do. I've pressed the issue as far as I can verbally. I mean I have been almost relentless with my position, constantly going back to her to reopen the discussion again and again over these past weeks.

The way I look at it, I simply request a continuance of the conference for 90 days and throw myself into repairing our marriage during that time. I still have one card in hand, my rental place, which is ready to go for the most part and she full well knows that. The thought of loosing me, her kids, her way of life & future scares the he!! out of her. If things don't work out over the next three months all I would need to do is reschedule the conference and we just pick it up right where we left off today. Within 1-2 months the hearing would be over and a ruling finalized. No different than if I continue forward on Monday. I still feel the desire to give this one last attempt. I know I've experienced false R before, but W was in the 'fog' of the affair and not thinking rationally. This whole ordeal of me filing for divorce, filing for custody, getting my own place, and furnishing it has really hit home with her and shaken her up. She has finally begun to see the reality of it and doesn't like what she sees.


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## Unsure in Seattle

If any one needs to make a leap of faith, it's her, not you. YOU DID NOTHING WRONG. She needs to do the heavy lifting. She needs to prove herself to you, not the other way around.


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## maxter

Unsure in Seattle said:


> If any one needs to make a leap of faith, it's her, not you. YOU DID NOTHING WRONG. She needs to do the heavy lifting. She needs to prove herself to you, not the other way around.


I agree fully. But am I willing to throw away the very last chance at saving the marriage because she's stubborn? Or because she has fears (just like I do) that she cannot overcome?

I don't want to look back months or years from now and say "I wish I had just taken that one last chance." Some would say I'm foolish for still wanting this. Some would say I'm an idiot for sticking around as long as I have. I guess I do have a lot of patience. But deep down my love for her and my spiritual beliefs tell me I must exhaust every last possible attempt before giving up.


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## Why Not Be Happy?

I support you on this one----100%. Make sure she knows that it took a lot for you to give in on this and you will give 100% to your marriage BUT that you expect nothing less from her!
I fully expect you'll know how real it is within the next few weeks.
Good luck!


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## maxter

Why Not Be Happy? said:


> I support you on this one----100%. Make sure she knows that it took a lot for you to give in on this and you will give 100% to your marriage BUT that you expect nothing less from her!
> I fully expect you'll know how real it is within the next few weeks.
> Good luck!


Thank you WNBH for the much appreciated support. So far the feedback has been mixed about 50/50 for/against. I'm not looking for 'the answer' on this forum. But the replies do help me to keep focused and constantly evaluate my emotions and actions. It's been a huge struggle grappling with all this.


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## Almostrecovered

I'm with Unsure-

she has to be the one to make you feel secure and not the other way around

that said, I wish you the best


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## Zzyzx

To fellow posters, it should be pointed out here that it's not just about his wife, it's also about their children. He owes his last, best effort to them, not to her. His wife doesn't really deserve that consideration let alone his trust since she was the one who stepped out on the marriage, but his kids sure do.

Maxter, I'd say push it back 90 days, but circle that date in bright red on a wall calendar so she is clear this is a temporary reprieve during which you're giving her the opportunity to win back your trust. Do not back off on your requirements for restoration of that trust. Good luck.


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## SadSamIAm

I think you should also make sure that you tell her, that she is the one that SHOULD BE the one that should give in because she is the one the had the AFFAIR.

Make sure that she knows that if she was the one to give in, it would make your chance of reconciliation better, because it shows her commitment and remorse for what she did.

I like your chance for reconciliation much better with her doing the heavy lifting.


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## NotLikeYou

maxter said:


> Thank you WNBH for the much appreciated support. So far the feedback has been mixed about 50/50 for/against. I'm not looking for 'the answer' on this forum. But the replies do help me to keep focused and constantly evaluate my emotions and actions. It's been a huge struggle grappling with all this.


As you say. Ideally, everyone posting will give you their best recommendations, to help you with whichever path you choose. Right now, you want to try reconciliation, and the best advice is actions that will protect YOU through that process. (Since it's, you know, your thread and all).

My observations are that, if your wife is sincere about reconciliation, she needs to get the custody out of the way and give you control. I know you want badly to reconcile, since she's REALLY REALLY SORRY THIS TIME, but the truth is, she's still stringing you along, still trying to maintain control.

And she is still succeeding in doing so.

Once again, she has stopped you dead in your tracks. You're further along, having a place of your own and having filed for divorce. So she has had to act like she's REALLY REALLY SORRY THIS TIME.

And she has "said the right things," and, given that talk is cheap, she has yielded NOTHING OF VALUE.

Maxter, according to things you have said previously, you have endured this abuse for 3-1/2 years. So it's not a question of "how much more can you take?" You can "take it" for the rest of your life.

The better question is "WHY should you take it for even another month?" You have a path forward, and its a solid, well thought out path. The way it will work best for you is if you stay on that path, and make it up to your wife to walk that path the way you want, not the way she thinks she should.

She was the one who cheated over and over again. She is the one who has verbally and emotionally abused you for hours on end, night after night while you stubbornly stayed in the same bed with her. She is the one who has used your daughters who you adore so much, as pawns and emotional blackmail.

Yeah, I can see why she would have a hard time trusting you- if you paid her back 1%, it would hurt her terribly.

What you do is always up to you. You currently want to reconcile, and if that's what you think is the best solution, God Bless you, and good luck. But if your path of reconciliation is to meet her halfway, don't be surprised to find yourself posting updates on this thread 3-1/2 years from now.


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## maxter

Zzyzx said:


> To fellow posters, it should be pointed out here that it's not just about his wife, it's also about their children. He owes his last, best effort to them, not to her. His wife doesn't really deserve that consideration let alone his trust since she was the one who stepped out on the marriage, but his kids sure do.
> 
> Maxter, I'd say push it back 90 days, but circle that date in bright red on a wall calendar so she is clear this is a temporary reprieve during which you're giving her the opportunity to win back your trust. Do not back off on your requirements for restoration of that trust. Good luck.


Abosolutely, the kids are my primary concern in all of this. And I weigh that concern with every thought or decision I need to make.

I spoke with my attorney around lunchtime and told him about recent developments. He felt there was nothing wrong with requesting a continuance and that doing so would not affect my standing in anyway. He did suggest rather than setting an exact timetable (ie. 90days) that we do what is called in legal terms a continuance "to the call". It simply puts the custody matter in a holding pattern, on the shelf so to speak, until which time I "make the call" to continue. That way if the W does something stupid in two weeks, I just call in and restart everything rather than having to wait for the 90 days to expire. And if she is genuine about her intentions and we are working through this and things are going well for us then the custody claim lies dormant.


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## maxter

SadSamIAm said:


> I think you should also make sure that you tell her, that she is the one that SHOULD BE the one that should give in because she is the one the had the AFFAIR.
> 
> Make sure that she knows that if she was the one to give in, it would make your chance of reconciliation better, because it shows her commitment and remorse for what she did.
> 
> I like your chance for reconciliation much better with her doing the heavy lifting.


I have done this several times. Yesterday during our conversations and again today in our email exchanges. I put it bluntly that she needs to do the heavy lifting and she should be the one to take the leap of faith because I have proven myself capable of making and sustaining positive changes over the last few years.


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## Shaggy

So, if you give her a chance, what is she prepared to do to prove the cheating is over for good? Beyond saying it? Will she carry a gps tracker? Will she take a polygraph on demand?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

Shaggy said:


> So, if you give her a chance, what is she prepared to do to prove the cheating is over for good? Beyond saying it? Will she carry a gps tracker? Will she take a polygraph on demand?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So far she has agreed to provide all email addresses and pw's. She has agreed to not lock her phone and let me look at it anytime I want to. She has agreed to provide access to her cell phone account. This was all from her on her own.

Obviously there is much more that I would need for piece of mind. I have not layed out my needs in detail yet because I was trying to get through the custody conferences and settle that issue first. If she met my custody conditions that would give me a good signal that she is sincere about her intentions. Then I was planning on putting all the detailed requirements for R in front of her. After that, it's up to her to come through or I leave in Jan.


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## aug

maxter, you're a nice guy (no disrespect intended).

Maybe, for once, you should let your wife to fold first instead of you. This way it will allow your wife to develop trust in you. She'll need to develop that faith in you again that you'll not take advantage of her (so to speak).

Currently, she's holding her position because she has no faith in you. She squandered that faith onto the OM. She'll need to reestablish her faith in you.


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## Unsure in Seattle

No, don't be the one to fold. Not this time. Too much is at stake.

Max- you've got to remind yourself of all of the times you've been the one to give in for the sake of being the nice guy or keeping the peace. 

If you give in on this, you're telling her that there are no lasting consequences to cheating (not to mention the anguish she caused you after the fact- I doubt you're likely to ever forget all of the barbs and bs she threw at you). That stuff didn't go away because now she realizes that you have one foot out the door.


Look, you're not looking to punish her- it's not about that- you're looking to protect yourself and your children. Including, if need be, protecting you and them from HER.

If she's serious about reconciliation, she should have no problem trusting you and agreeing to your very fair custody terms.


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## Shaggy

I think she needs to include a NC letter to the OM, and a letter of admittance and remorse to you about her affair, including her recent meetup.

In other words, if she really is ready to put it behind and move on, she first must admit her mistakes and pledge to not repeat them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hesnothappy

You have the power...use it wisely ;o) Your W definitely still needs counseling for herself to see why she does what she does, and to help her make better decisions in the future. Don't squander your chance to make a headway for yourself and your children. Protect yourself and think of the opportunities for a respectful and caring, trustworthy marriage. I am encouraged that you will find a road map to a stable if not happy marital relationship and a family life for your girls. But keep your lawyers number handy, a tiger doesn't usually change their stripes.


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## krismimo

:iagree::iagree::iagree: I couldn't agree more! Very well said!


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## golfergirl

Wishing you the best of luck. Nothing to lose and everything to gain!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

The custody matter is "on hold" for the time being. I made a motion with the judge to continue it "to the call" which simply means the matter is set aside until such time as I call to restart it and aquire a court date. So the custody claim is still in effect and in the court system, it's just been put on hold until I see how things go with my W. I can't explain the feeling of relief I have not having this issue hanging over my head all the time.

Also, on another good note- W is NOT pregnant! She is in the middle of a full blown, heavy period typical of what she used to get before the stress of me filing for D and custody hammered her physically and emotionally. So that major issue is resolved.

Me, the W and two girls went up to her Mom's house overnight for Thanksgiving. We had a good time overall. I was OK too. I was not uncomfortable around her family and actually it felt good to be back into a normal mode of interaction with them. W has a large family and I found that I missed seeing them. W told me several times she was happy that I decided to go her and the girls.

I still have the task of writing up all my requirements for R and giving it to the W. I was waiting until after Thanksgiving so as not to introduce any drama into what is supposed to be a happy & thankful time. I'm going to try and get this to her this weekend and then we'll see what happens.


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## Shaggy

maxter said:


> I still have the task of writing up all my requirements for R and giving it to the W. I was waiting until after Thanksgiving so as not to introduce any drama into what is supposed to be a happy & thankful time. I'm going to try and get this to her this weekend and then we'll see what happens.


Things seem to be going very well. This means it's best to strike while the iron is hot, so to speak. What I mean is if you delay too long with the list, she might balk a bit, but right now she is very open to working on things.


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## Almostrecovered

how goes it max?


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## maxter

Almostrecovered said:


> how goes it max?


Thanks for asking! It's going slow. So far my heart just isn't into it with her. I've told her so because she's been asking me what's wrong- I'm distant and detached. I'm actually in the middle of writing up my specific requirements for R. It's a one page, bullet point list of what I need for True R. It'll probably blow her mind when she sees it because she is of the mind that she's doing 'everything' possible to prove herself to me.

She is nice and pleasant and we are getting along daily. There's just no connection or intimacy between us, mainly due to my lack of feelings toward her. I'm afraid to open my heart up again and so far haven't found the inner strength to let go of the anger and bitterness.

On a better note, we just decorated the house inside and out for Christmas last weekend. Our girls were really into it and had alot of fun doing it. Also the four of us just went to my family's Christmas party on Saturday. She totally avoided my parents, but got along fine with everyone else.


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## Almostrecovered

why so long to write it out and present it?

what do you have so far?


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## maxter

Why so long? Several reasons- none are good. Daily demands of life, Thanksgiving holiday, mixed feelings on my part, procrastination........

Here is what I have:

Terms Required for Reconciliation
These are the minimum acceptable requirements that I need to help rebuild our marriage. Over time, these will enable me to heal emotionally and will help to reestablish trust between us.

•	No Contact for Life
Prepare a hand written ‘No Contact’ letter. Letter content to be approved by both of us. Letter to be mailed by me. Sample letter enclosed.
Do not attempt to make contact with the other person ever again, for life.
Immediately report any attempts by the other person to contact you.

•	Total Transparency
Provide complete list of ALL email/facebook/chat/etc. accounts, current and inactive, including login ID and passwords (including but not limited to work & Google gmail accounts).
Reestablish online cell phone account. Provide login ID and password.
Open access to cell phone at all times. Provide unlock code.
Answer any and all questions about the affair truthfully and completely.

•	Get Tested for STD’s
Have a full spectrum STD panel run and provide a copy of the results.

•	Ownership/Accountability
Accept 100% responsibility for having an affair with no blame shifting toward me.
Continue to show remorse and understanding of the emotional damage that has been inflicted on me, not only through words but with actions, by meeting the terms outlined here.

•	Individual Counseling
Attend regular therapy sessions to better understand the basis for your destructive behavior to prevent it from happening again.

•	Marriage Counseling
Attend couples therapy sessions with a mutually agreed upon counselor.


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## Shaggy

I think you should throw in a post-nup agreement too.

If she is ever with him again - the post nup kicks in


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## krismimo

Thanks for replying maxter although it has been awhile. You sound like your at a cross roads, and you need to make a choice, but not right away you need time to figure out if you can forgive your wife and move on with her, or you can still forgive her but you may need to move on without her. Another thing is sometimes when your hurt it's easier to Hang on to the pain and anger because it's (at the time) you feel that it is all you have left, it is bad enough to have been betrayed not alone try to figure out how to deal with it while you live together it is confusing, there are times you want to make love to them and wish that things were like they used to be, and there were times that you regreted ever meeting them. There are times you want to burst into tears and there are times you just don't want to be bothered at all. I think the one thing you need to keep in mind for yourself is that you don't need her to be happy, you have to be happy and content with yourself because if yo don't have that inner peace and love for yourself then your wife or whomever might come along in your life.) It will not matter. The problem is you never had time to seperate yourself from her so that you can figure out what YOU want, not to sound like a broken record but so far even still, you have done mostly everything for everyone but yourself.


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## Almostrecovered

Shaggy said:


> I think you should throw in a post-nup agreement too.
> 
> If she is ever with him again - the post nup kicks in


I agree, she really ran you the ringer and it's the best way to protect yourself from a false R


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## Hicks

I agree with the post nup.
It should say that if she ever commits adultery that she agrees to divorce, no spousal support, no child support, 75% of marital assets to you, full (or primary) custody for yourself.


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## DailyGrind

Hicks said:


> I agree with the post nup.
> It should say that if she ever commits adultery that she agrees to divorce, no spousal support, no child support, 75% of marital assets to you, full (or primary) custody for yourself.


I don't think this is enforceable. You can have it say anything you want...but if it wouldn't stick in court...it is just wasted effort. IMO. You can't contract away your rights. 

You could probably get away with immediate uncontested divorce, no spousal support, CUSTODY of the children (thus receiving child support), and a specific plan for retainage of the marital home (including how to deal with her share of the equity.)


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## maxter

UPDATE-
I asked my W for some time alone to talk with her last night. She accomodated and we talked for about 15 minutes. I asked a couple of questions about her last & final encounter with the OM. Just basic stuff because I didn't really want to hear the sordid details. Just hearing her say the words confirming what I knew made me sick to my stomach. I had the shakes for about an hour afterward too.

She told me she has not tried to contact him since that last time together in Sept and neither has he tried contacting her. She verbally confirmed she did get tested for STD's but doesn't remember the exact dates. I knew of her appointments for the tests because she had mentioned them back in Sept timeframe. My concern is she was tested before the final encounter. I told her to get me a copy of the results. I pray she was tested after the final time. Otherwise I will require her to get tested again.

I asked her if she still wants our marriage to work out. She said yes. I told her if she doesn't want it anymore, I'm more than ready to move out & move on with my life. She responded that she knows that all too well now given that I have filed for D and got my own place.

I told her I may be a fool for doing this (only time will tell), but I still love her and want to work our way through this together. I told her I have a list of absolute requirements that she must meet, plus there may be others that will come up as we go along. I gave her a paper copy of the terms plus a sample NC letter that I pieced together from several I found on TAM and other sites so that it better suited our situation. She looked them over and told me she has no problem with any of them and that she has been offering some of these to me recently. I countered that she has only been verbally telling me and I want to see some actions from her. Give me the list of accounts. Give me the cell phone billing account and login. Just don't tell me I can have them. I told her she needs to initiate more from her side and be forthcoming with these things. I shouldn't have to drag them out of her.

I don't know. Maybe my expectations are too high that she understands and knows exactly what to do to start repairing our marriage. She can't read minds anymore than I can. So I spelled it all out in black and white on paper so there is no misunderstanding about what I want from her.

Also on another good note, she agreed to attend and we are looking into going to a local Retrouvaille program in Jan. She was immediately open to the idea and thought it would be beneficial- for the time away together and to improve our communication & emotional connection.

Question- anyone have personal experience with this type of program? Maybe I should post the question in the Experiences in Counseling forum.


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## Eli-Zor

Your wife and you need guidance on what to do to help recover from the affair. Some of the folk I have worked with have initially used the paid for dial in service on the MB site then taken the guidance and implimented it themselves or with support from an MC . A lot of it will be tough listening for your wife and you have exercises to complete as well . I have no tangible experience of the marriage retreat type weekends or a way of measuring their success. Similarly I have not heard negative comments about the Retrouvaille program.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

hope the hysterical bonding starts soon!


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## hesnothappy

Maxter I am praying for you. Just stay on top of everything and move forward. Reconciliation has to work for someone and it might as well be YOU. Stay alert as a tiger doesn't usually change it's spot, but a tiger can be tamed...I have no proof of that ;o) Work on everything together and keep all communication open. You got some leverage, so use it at will to make things more secure for you. but you will have to find a way to love, respect and TRUST your wife again. And know, if all for naught,you gave it the old college try for your boys if nothing else. Good Luck to you both.


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## maxter

W called me at work while she was driving to work herself. She told me there's an envelope on the table with the info I asked for. So at lunch I went home and looked at it. It was a one page report from her Gyno for chlamydia and gonorrhea 
STD testing (nothing else, & no HIV test). And as I suspected it was done the end of August one month before her final Fvck with OM. She scribbled her FB and cell phone account login & PW in the margin.

This is not acceptable. I can't believe she would even provide it and think it was OK. She knows she saw him in Sept. And she didn't provide her work or gmail account info. I'm so tired of having to drag sh!t out of her.

I will tell her tonight to get retested for STD's with a comprehensive full panel.


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## aug

maxter said:


> W called me at work while she was driving to work herself. She told me there's an envelope on the table with the info I asked for. So at lunch I went home and looked at it. It was a one page report from her Gyno for chlamydia and gonorrhea
> STD testing (nothing else, & no HIV test). And as I suspected it was done the end of August one month before her final Fvck with OM. She scribbled her FB and cell phone account login & PW in the margin.
> 
> This is not acceptable. I can't believe she would even provide it and think it was OK. She knows she saw him in Sept. And she didn't provide her work or gmail account info. I'm so tired of having to drag sh!t out of her.
> 
> *I will tell her tonight to get retested for STD's with a comprehensive full panel*.



along with hepatitis, herpes


Looks like she's trying in her own way.


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## Bobby5000

Calm down, you seem like you are getting a little crazy. Her asking if you can try to work things out is not an attack on you. 

The issues are tough. Do note that for guys like you, it's not only her taking half, but frequently lawyers bills on top. You might look for the lawyer to tell you want to hear, unsuccessfully litigate some issues, and have now about 25,000-50,000 in legal fees added to this mess. 

If you had a drinking problem, you had kids, then perhaps consider trying to work things out, and in any case, you are going to have to have a civil relationship after divorce. 






maxter said:


> Well, I went to the doctor this morning to get tested for STD's. Have to wait a week to get the results. It's gonna be a looong week. I've never had any symptoms what so ever, but better to be sure.
> 
> Here's my sad story for those wishing to know:
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...about-loose-my-mind-trapped-cant-get-out.html
> 
> I also visited two attorneys. Both pretty much told me the same thing. I'M SCREWED! I'm very depressed about this. She's going to get 1/2 of everything as a prize for ****ing another guy. she brought nothing to the marriage except $8K in debt and a few pieces of furniture. Now she gets 1/2 the equity in the house and 1/2 my retirement. What a crock! I will either have to take out a huge loan to buy her 1/2 of the house back or we sell it (great time to do that, eh?) and totally disrupt our kids lives, everything they've known and lived through is in this house. Uhg!
> 
> Get this- while I'm between lawyer appointments, my W texts me saying she knows its way too late, but she's trully sorry for hurting me. OMG! I could just punch something! Then she texts to ask if the door is permanently closed. To which I respond "Are you ****ing kidding me? After you included our two children in your $hit? YES!!!" To which she responds she would never let anything happen to them (while smoking pot and having an all night sex-capade). I mean come one! How can a mother even say that. Man, she's looking more and more wacked out mentally. She's not even able to reason properly and keeps telling me my drinking started all this.
> 
> Typical blame shifting. She's 100% accountable for the affair. I did contribute 50% of the hurt before that, but I cleaned up my act 3 1/2yrs ago and been sober since. I'm just sick to my stomach with all this. Just wish it could be over.
> 
> I see another attorney tomorrow and then try to digest all this over the weekend. Because next week, I need to file and get this started.


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## maxter

I reminded the W yesterday that she needs to get retested for STD's due to the timing of the first test and her meeting up with OM afterwards. She became defensive saying nothing she does is good enough and when will it be enough to satisfy me. I feel that her outburst was unwarranted given that I made clear, concise requests in writing for the things I needed from her and she only met two of them halfway.

She gave me the STD test results but as stated, she had re-exposed herself afterward voiding the results. That's her fault, not my problem. Second she gave me access to FB and her online cell phone account, but didn't provide her work or gmail info. So I'll have to ask her again for those and face another barrage of indignation.

She keeps asking me what will be next. After she does all the things on my list, then what will I ask for? I told her I can't think of anything at the moment but there may be things that come up that I want to know about. That's part of the process of healing and R. It's typical of her to want things to just be over with. That's her personality type.

Non of this behavior is unexpected. It's exactly what I expected knowing how she reacts to these types of interactions between us. Some days I'm simply tired and emotionally worn down to the point where these incidents make it hard to stay focused and hopeful. She texted me in the afternoon to tell me she made a doctors appointment for Wednesday to get retested. At least she followed through, but only after giving me a piece of her mind. I did thank her for setting up the appt to show my appreciation. Ah well. One day at a time I guess.


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## Almostrecovered

stay firm max, you must make it very clear to her that if she isn't willing to do this in full force and for the long haul then there's no point to R, you have the power right now, don't back down


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## golfergirl

Almostrecovered said:


> stay firm max, you must make it very clear to her that if she isn't willing to do this in full force and for the long haul then there's no point to R, you have the power right now, don't back down


When strong moment - make it clear she is lucky to be given a chance. If she isn't up to putting her everything into it - let you know now so you can both quit wasting time. What a snotty attitude! I'm angry for you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks

maxter said:


> I reminded the W yesterday that she needs to get retested for STD's due to the timing of the first test and her meeting up with OM afterwards. She became defensive saying nothing she does is good enough and when will it be enough to satisfy me.


When she says something like this you should say. That is definitely one way to look at it. Another way is that you could think is that doing something I ask is an opportunity for you to demonstrate your committment to R. The choice on how to look at things is entirely yours.

And if she keeps looking at things in the most marriage harming way possible, you kind of know where she stands.


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## krismimo

I'm getting p*****ed for you I agree with golfer girl, stay firm max don't let her run over you but you also need to check her, next time she says what next, then you can say whatever it takes or I Will proceed with the D.


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## Shaggy

Maxter,mre call she double talked and walked all over you until you called her and took clear action. She clearly needs you to be very firm and very alpha to keep her in line.

If this R is going to work, you will always have to be ready to demand she steps up and honors her commitment, or she will be lazy and slide.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blindasabat

Ah finally made it--- Wow32 pages is a lot of reading I have wanted to post all through this ordeal. Maxter gets top marks for conduct.
Around page 25? I wanted to jump in and say get her to sign the custody agreement drawn up by your attorney you have been smart get all the insurance you can in case this all goes south
remind her she has to prove herself not you to her make signing the custody agreement act if faith on her part to show she is truly sincere about the R.
Stick to your guns trust and verify. Get the agreement and give it your attorney keep the power position you have rightly earned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## krismimo

How goes it Maxter? Happy holidays!


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## lordmayhem

I truly wish this marriage can be reconciled, but after reading through this thread, I have a few concerns. Middle of November, she was acting remorseful and had hit rock bottom, *yet a month later she's already complaining *that whatever she does is not enough to satisfy him for R. Was it not a month ago she was promising that she would do ANYTHING to save the marriage? Wanting an STD check now since she failed to get one after her last bang with OM is a very reasonable request. 

I would be very concerned that her change won't last, and this will end up as False R.


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## krismimo

I feel the same way lord mayhem.


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## lordmayhem

Yup. It was only a month ago. :scratchhead:

I fear he's going to hear the dreaded words that indicate False R and Rugsweeping: "Get over it already" soon, if he hasn't already.


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## Blindasabat

come back Maxtor need an update hope its going well
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

lordmayhem said:


> I truly wish this marriage can be reconciled, but after reading through this thread, I have a few concerns. Middle of November, she was acting remorseful and had hit rock bottom, *yet a month later she's already complaining *that whatever she does is not enough to satisfy him for R. Was it not a month ago she was promising that she would do ANYTHING to save the marriage? Wanting an STD check now since she failed to get one after her last bang with OM is a very reasonable request.
> 
> I would be very concerned that her change won't last, and this will end up as False R.


Indeed. But keep in mind that most waywards are an impatient bunch who have no idea the amount of damaged they caused and how long it will be before their betrayed spouse gains any semblance of normalcy in their lives.

I truly hope that Maxter has conveyed this to his wife so that she realizes that if she is truly committed to reconciliation, that it is going to be a long, hard trek ahead.


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## krismimo

Hi Maxter hope the holidays are treating you a bit better these days. how are things coming along with you and your wife? Kris


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## Galt

Maxter:

I haven't had time to read all of the posts, but I can only say that you would be a fool to take the punishment, which the warped system will dispense to you, for refusing to accept your wife's behaviour and divorcing her.

A man should never gamble when he has everything to lose (custody, assets, etc.) and nothing to gain. If you think you have your "freedom" to gain then consider this: by her actions your wife has already nullified any contract between you, and given you the right to behave in any manner you wish; you are already "free", but get to keep your assets, kids, alimony and everything else a court would strip you of in a divorce!


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## maxter

QUICK UPDATE-

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all! Sorry I haven't been on TAM for awhile. I've been very busy with the holidays and my girls; and yes, my W too. I had the last two weeks off from work and spent a lot of time with the family doing Christmas stuff, shopping, wrapping, decorating, all the family parties and such. And it was a very wonderful time. Imagine that! Our girls had one of, if not the best Christmas' ever.

Let's see now, what has transpired on the R front? W gave me the last of her email account logins for work and gmail. She went and got tested again for STD's (full panel) and gave me the results two days before Christmas. Oh, and we have consumated our recommittment to the marriage, several times :smthumbup:

After further consideration, she has agreed to write the NC letter. It took her awhile to grasp the idea that the letter was more 'for' me and not a message 'to' the OM per say. She didn't see the point in a letter since he has not attempted contacting her for months and she has no plans to ever contact him again. I explained several different ways that her agreement to do it, her writing of the letter by her own hand, her thinking about what to say and executing it was just another way for her to express her recommittment to our marriage.

Last night we were lying in bed, snuggling and talking about how nice the holiday was for us and she firmly grabbed my hand, looked into my eyes and said "I'm truly sorry for hurting you so badly." I replied, "It's a new year and a fresh start. Let's focus on each other more intently than ever and don't sweat the trivial stuff that may come up."

Over the holiday I told her we must find ways to spend more time together each week. We have the same issues other families have with school, work, activities, chores and all. But we really slacked off on any quality time together over the past few years. We always put our kids needs first and that's not the best remedy for a healthy marriage. There needs to be a better balance going forward.

Here's wishing everyone on TAM a Happy, Healthy, and Prosperous New Year!


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## morituri

maxter said:


> Over the holiday I told her we must find ways to spend more time together each week. We have the same issues other families have with school, work, activities, chores and all. But we really slacked off on any quality time together over the past few years. We always put our kids needs first and that's not the best remedy for a healthy marriage. There needs to be a better balance going forward.


Another way for you to put it to her is this. "(your wife's name) our marriage is the foundation of our family. If the foundation is weakened or destroyed, the family will suffer and be destroyed. For this reason, you and I, should make it THE top priority through mutual commitment, to do everything to spend time together, in and out of bed."



> Here's wishing everyone on TAM a Happy, Healthy, and Prosperous New Year!


And the same to you and yours.


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## Why Not Be Happy?

Awesome Maxter!


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## Almostrecovered

I'm pulling for you max, good luck


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## Blindasabat

great news Maxtor I was worried about you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrQuatto

Max, been a while. Any Update?


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## maxter

UPDATE-

I'm still at home with the W and kids. I asked the realtor to put my rental place back on the market. I did this to try and ease our financial situation as we try to pay for a second household, lawyer fees, cc debt, and money I borrowed from my parents to get setup on my own. And we've had some unexpected home and auto repairs. It's a bad time of year (middle of winter) to find another renter. So I'll probably be stuck paying rent until the lease runs out in June.

W and I are getting along fine. No arguments or issues. I've checked on her a few times (email and phone records) and nothing appears to be going on. My gut tells me nothing is going on too. She had her first restart of IC yesterday and setup several more appointments. She also signed release forms for the first time in years to allow her therapist to share info with mine. I think that is a positive sign. In the past she has been completely secretive about what goes on in her sessions.

My birthday is this Friday and she has planned a family getaway for three days. She won't tell me what it is. She wants it to be a big surprise. All I know is I had to take two vacation days and we have to drive wherever we are going. I'm looking forward to it.

My only complaint about R is I don't feel connected with her. We seem to be just going through the motions of daily life. I want to feel a closer, intimate, connection with her. I'll admit I haven't been trying very hard. I need to do more frequent touching & cuddling. And we definitely need to find more time for making love. Life is hard with two girls, work, homework, music lessons, activities, and household chores. We both usually fall into bed exhausted each night. I have been doing more listening and interacting in conversation with her as I feel this was something I was lacking in before her affair.

So things are moving along, slowly, but at least in the right direction.


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## Almostrecovered

one of the most overlooked aspects of R on here is spending one on one time- 10-15 hours a week

make the time or it will be for naught


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## maxter

Almostrecovered said:


> one of the most overlooked aspects of R on here is spending one on one time- 10-15 hours a week
> 
> make the time or it will be for naught


I forgot to mention we are watching more TV shows together. We used to just go in our separate rooms and watch whatever or even the same show sometimes. I even watch shows that only she likes just so I can snuggle with her on the couch or in bed.


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## Almostrecovered

a good start but aside from the boob tube try to find a mutually rewarding hobby or activity that you both can share in

having more fun together=more bonding= more intimacy= more satisfying and rewarding sex


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## Unsure in Seattle

Max, what I don't get from your update-

Is SHE trying harder? Has she shown the proper remorse? The understanding that's vital to you reconnecting? Maybe you haven't been trying hard because the reciprocation isn't there-


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## krismimo

I know this is while ago but I wonder how things are with you. Hope all is well!


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