# No remorse... WTH is he doing then?



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

No remorse... WTH is he doing then?
I have been separated from my serial cheater husband (pregnant wife with std) for a little over a month but have not initiated divorce proceedings. No reconciliation is intended on my part. 

I am also having a hard time getting over the fact that he pulls the wool over everyone's eyes with his personality. He seems like a shy, sensitive, vulnerable guy. He goes out of his way for people and become very likeable that way. He exudes trustworthiness and steadfastness. Excpet, he's none of those things.

I have a narcissitic mother who still very much loves my STBXH and tries to manipulate me into reconsidering and taking him back. She bought him a christmas gift, has him over for coffee and seems to believe all his lies. This is incredibly hurtful to me, but I guess I shouldn't expect anything else. I told her I would expose her to her friends, and ask them if this was normal behavior for a mother, but all she said was "why would you want to embarrass yourself by revealing you have an std?"

Marriage to him was hell. He is a passive aggressive master that hurt me tremendously. I hurt him too by getting angry and yelling.

His attempts at reconciliation have been to drop off a couple of love letters at my mother's. These were not in an envelope, they were just pages left there so everyone could read them. He tells me he wants to be a family, but is too busy working and traveling and going out with his buddies. He changed all his passwords even though we had a talk about transparency. He told our marriage therapist that he thought I was "confused" and had a personality disorder. In fact, when I asked him to accompany me to an ultrasound scan after yet another std-related bleeding (I was distraught and scared of going by myself and didn't want to tell anyone about the bleedings), he told me I had paranoid personality disorder while we were in the waiting room. He is just relentless in trying to blame me for not trusting him when he has already confessed to multiple cheatings. His reasoning is "well, you didn't know about these incidents, so you had no reason not to trust me. You have trust issues". Except I don't. 

He is not groveling, nor is he acting super nice and transparent. In fact, he asked me to reimburse him for the gas that was still left in the car the day he left. 

Last I heard from him he wanted to know whether I wanted to spend Christmas as a family or he would go to his parent's a state away. He even tried dropping by. I never answered. It almost seems as though he is waiting for some time to pass. He is waiting for this to blow over and for me to just instantly forgive him and welcome him back as if nothing happened. He wants me to tell him what to do, but he already knows everything... For example, I needed transparency. He knows this. Yet he changed his passwords. He says one thing and does another.

What I want to know is this: 
Although I know I want to divorce, why does his callousness hurt so much? Why isn't he being nicer even though I'm pregnant, have a toddler to take care of, am on bed rest because of the STD he gave me? What is it that he wants, exactly? I'm doing no contact because I was being way too nice and empathetic before, and he was acting so dismissive. So I decided I needed to protect my feelings instead of playing games and getting my feelings hurt.

What is he doing?


----------



## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Expose, expose, expose, the blow the GD lid off of everything that he has done to you.
All your husband wants is to make sure that you don't expose him for the POS cheater he is, going so far as to try to blame shift onto you that this is all your fault.
You have an STD & I am sorry for that, but it's nothing to be ashamed of.
The only person who should be ashamed is your douche waffle of a husband.
Your mom obviously has her own issues, perhaps she has been cheated on herself.
Get in touch with your friends & relatives who will support you through thick & thin, they will be the ones to reach out to.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> Expose, expose, expose, the blow the GD lid off of everything that he has done to you.
> All your husband wants is to make sure that you don't expose him for the POS cheater he is, going so far as to try to blame shift onto you that this is all your fault.
> You have an STD & I am sorry for that, but it's nothing to be ashamed of.
> The only person who should be ashamed is your douche waffle of a husband.
> ...


Hey Phenix.. I have exposed to his family and strategically to two friends (one of his buddies who is giving him emotional support and another mutual friend of ours who is a great big gossip and knows everyone). So far, people's attitude seems to be to not takes sides and to not want to interfere. i haven't met anyone face to face in a while though.

My mom was cheated on when she was engaged to an old boyfriend. She tried to kill herself over it. I found this out through relatives, though. Her version is quite different (he didn't want her to work so SHE broke it off). I'm doing remarkably fine compared to her. 

I'm just trying to understand what angle stbxh is playing here, if any. His words and actions seem very mismatched.


----------



## Yessongs72 (Dec 6, 2012)

SandyD said:


> No remorse... WTH is he doing then?
> What I want to know is this:
> Although I know I want to divorce, why does his callousness hurt so much? Why isn't he being nicer even though I'm pregnant, have a toddler to take care of, am on bed rest because of the STD he gave me? What is it that he wants, exactly? I'm doing no contact because I was being way too nice and empathetic before, and he was acting so dismissive. So I decided I needed to protect my feelings instead of playing games and getting my feelings hurt.
> 
> What is he doing?


"What is he doing?" being a weasel.

"Why does his callousness hurt so much" because he is the man you fell in love with and married and have created children with. 

"Why isn't he being nicer... What is it that he wants exactly" He wants to wear you down and become so jaded that you are glad just to see the back of him rather than take him to the cleaners for every damn penny. He wanted money for the petrol in the car - he wants to keep it all. Yep - Weasel.

They always use the children and the BS is meant to feel somehow bad that by divorcing they are the one damaging the children.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I am not trying to put a mental health diagnosis on your husband, but in a general sense his attitude sound like those of a sociopath. Many sociopaths are very charming.That's how they fool people. They are unable to feel any kind of empathy. They only see their side of a situation.

He's not being nicer because he does not know how to be nicer. He as learned that if he keeps pushing people and pushing them they will eventually give in to whatever it is that he wants.

Why does it hurt you so much? Because you love who you thought he was. Keep in mind that you do not love who he really is. Unfortunately you spent a lot of time with a man who hid his real self from you.

I'm so sorry about the STD. I do hope that you and your baby will be ok.

Your mom is a piece of work. Just stop telling her anything. She really does not deserve to have the information that she can use to hurt you.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I am not trying to put a mental health diagnosis on your husband, but in a general sense his attitude sound like those of a sociopath. Many sociopaths are very charming.That's how they fool people. They are unable to feel any kind of empathy. They only see their side of a situation.
> 
> He's not being nicer because he does not know how to be nicer. He as learned that if he keeps pushing people and pushing them they will eventually give in to whatever it is that he wants.
> 
> ...


I agree he does sound sociopathic, but he's not. He has pretty stable long-term friendships and has never harmed anyone. 

What sucks is that, after non-stop travelling for work this last month we've been apart, he's now in another state to spend christamss with his folks since I didn't answer his calls. Today he went to a christmas bash with friends and I know his ex, who he had an emotional affair with for two years, will be there. It pains me to think he is probably trying to hook up with her now. The situation with his ex was very traumatizing to me, so it hurts like nothing else to think he is close to her now. 

I asked him to come back as soon as possible because I need a break, too much on my plate to handle alone and I need help with our daughter. He never told me when he'd be back.


----------



## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

It is trauma, exacerbated by pregnancy hormones and std. Read the newbie post by almostrecovered. You don't know everything about your husband...time to research him. He's happy you are confined and restricted by pregnancy...Start process for child support since you are separated - for existing child so you can have an income and get unemployment compensation under basis of medical necessisity. Check to see if your courts consider an std during pregnancy to be abuse - placing mother and unborn child at danger - and place a restraining order on him if you are able. That way he may have to pay additional child support as soon as the baby is born. Sorry to say this but this type of character is best served a dose of absolutely no contact and a gooda$$ kicking in the pocket for him to get his reality check, this is your main weapon right now. Unless the vows you took were otherwise, the usual one is "...For better or worse, in sickness and health, richer or poorer etc." - Sounds like you are on the opposite polarity of these. All the travelling and your not acquiescing to his current power play is no excuse to keep yourself on the receiving end of his psychosis and adultery. If he ever was, he is now completely emotionally detatched from you. But you don't need to be more vulnerable because of it. Time to transfer from emotional to pocket attachment. You need to try focusing your energies in cushioning yourself and your children financially now. His lack of remorse is clearly an indication that he is not ready or able to give you or your children anything remotely close to a stable life. You can stay married to him for as long as you want to, just be sure he has no further contact with you and he is paying you $ through the state versus wage garnishment. If he wants to see his child be sure you take a trip to the mall before he comes, to look at baby clothes etc, when he comes over while your mom watches them. Do not let him see you under no circumstances, unless it's for a valid reason. Go to your appointments without him in your own mind...You are stronger than you think you are right now. Text him the appointments, let him come on his own accord, be civil and firm but never chummy...keep light conversation about the existing appointment only -nothing else. Adapt a lawyer attitude. Stop confiding in your mother. Find someone else to confide in. He has your mother covered by her telling him your thoughts and actions. Go superficial with her - no need to tell her everywhere you are going and what you are doing. Take care of yourself, your are in the process of creating another human being and everything you feel he/she feels...their and your health are paramount. If anything, consider too that he may be trying to build a case against you so he can have custody of the children...The sooner you research him and build a case of your own, the better. Document, document, document...times/dates/events. You are more capable than you know it...breathe, relax and get sarted...One day at a time. PS Use this time to make some plans for your own future too, like increasing your employment marketibility post baby's birth.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I remember your story & think your H is a master, master gaslighter. He won't change - ever. He convinces anyone within shouting distance that he's a great guy & you only know otherwise if you're really close to him for a long period. That means right now that you're the only one who has his number probably & this leaves you very much alone.

And with mothers like yours you don't really need any enemies. She should be supporting you 100% now.

So, it sounds like it's you and the kids. You sound strong & you will need the strength to stay away from your H. He is an absolute dog & you should divorce him, no doubt about that. He has cheated and lied and cheated and lied. And he isn't remorseful.

Do your best with the 180. I know it's very lonely, but you need to find your strength to do what's best for you and your children for the future.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

I already have a set-up where I don't have to see him when he picks up our daughter. I intend to stay no contact for as long as possible, or at least June, when the baby is born. I will see an attorney and protect myself financially, but I do want to try (emphasis on try) to be semi-civil because of my children. I will have some cards up my sleeve though, just in case I need them.

Thanks for all your words guys. In the end, I can choose to give him power to hurt me or I can just choose to accept he will never fail to hurt me and disconnect. I'm choosing option 2. It feels much better.

He can be with his ex, random girls or pay another hooker. There is nothing I can do about it and I will just radically accept this. I know I can't trust him so I'll stop suffering over this. 

An ex of mine will probably be visiting me in a few short months (we've been only friends for over a decade - but stbxh made me cut contact while he remained secretly in contact, and in love, with his ex) to give me some much needed support, laughter and silliness. Hopefully a taste of his own medicine will do him good. I have no intention of starting anything with this ex or he with me, but my life as soon as I am legally separated will not be my ex's business anymore.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Alte Dame... I told my stbx about him being a master gaslighter. He went straight to our former marriage therapist with that one, complaining that I was insane. I don't know why I kept trying to get through to him. I know what I know, he won't admit to anything anyway, he'll just use it against me. I just need to keep my distance and NOT engage anymore. It just gives him ammo. And anything else just sends the message that I care and he still has a chance of manipulating me. This is VERY clear to me now.

Just wish I could do something to really hurt him inside, but come out smelling like a rose, like he does. He is an evil genius.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

SandyD said:


> ...I told my stbx about him being a master gaslighter. He went straight to our former marriage therapist with that one, complaining that I was insane.


Right, he gaslighted you with the marriage therapist....it never stops.



> Just wish I could do something to really hurt him inside, but come out smelling like a rose, like he does. He is an evil genius.


I think for people like him the saying that "the best revenge is living well" is actually true. It drives them crazy because they have no more control.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SandyD said:


> I agree he does sound sociopathic, but he's not. He has pretty stable long-term friendships and has never harmed anyone.


Most sociopaths never harm anyone in the sense that they never beat up or kill anyone. They can learn to live within the parameters of society and only bring havoc on those who them into their lives. Having long standing friends is also not proof of not being a sociopath.
Not that I’m labeling him.. just pointing that out.


SandyD said:


> What sucks is that, after non-stop travelling for work this last month we've been apart, he's now in another state to spend christamss with his folks since I didn't answer his calls. Today he went to a christmas bash with friends and I know his ex, who he had an emotional affair with for two years, will be there. It pains me to think he is probably trying to hook up with her now. The situation with his ex was very traumatizing to me, so it hurts like nothing else to think he is close to her now.


Don’t let jealousy of the ex suck you back in. That would not be a healthy thing to do.


SandyD said:


> I asked him to come back as soon as possible because I need a break, too much on my plate to handle alone and I need help with our daughter. He never told me when he'd be back.


Sounds like he might be leaving you and your children with no intention of being there to help out.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Got in contact with his friend who thinks he's such a peach, asking him when my stbx would be back from his mini vacation back home since he didn't tell me or my family. And knowing him, he'll just play it by ear and come back as late as possible. I exposed the bleedings and the fact that he knows I'm on bed rest (iow, he should be here with his daughter to give me a rest since he's such a "great" dad). I also told him my stbx isn't answering his phone.

I am getting a family member to call him or his parents to get a firm return date. 

If I stay quiet and try to play martyr, it'll only hurt me. He's out having fun, catching up with the ex and planning many fun things while I'm alone with a risky pregnancy, a toddler, a narcissistic mother and NO rest. And he knows this. What an ASS! 

He's doing this on purpose but will play dumb when confronted, so I'm getting others to get through to him since, if I say anything, he'll just turn it around on me.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

I wish I could leave me daughter with him and go on a nice sunny, tropical vacation for a week. I've never left her side in the 2,5 years she's been here. Maybe I deserve a break.


----------



## Louise7 (Nov 8, 2012)

SandyD said:


> I agree he does sound sociopathic, but he's not. He has pretty stable long-term friendships and has never harmed anyone.
> 
> What sucks is that, after non-stop travelling for work this last month we've been apart, he's now in another state to spend christamss with his folks since I didn't answer his calls. Today he went to a christmas bash with friends and I know his ex, who he had an emotional affair with for two years, will be there.* It pains me to think he is probably trying to hook up with her now. The situation with his ex was very traumatizing to me, so it hurts like nothing else to think he is close to her now*.
> 
> I asked him to come back as soon as possible because I need a break, too much on my plate to handle alone and I need help with our daughter. He never told me when he'd be back.


Do yourself and her a favour. Contact her by any means possible and let her know about his STD. You can bet he wont.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You definitely deserve a break. It seems like you are very isolated. Are there any good friends who are sympathetic to you? Any help you can call in for your 2-yo?

(I agree with EleGirl that your H sounds like he has sociopathic tendencies.)


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SandyD said:


> I wish I could leave me daughter with him and go on a nice sunny, tropical vacation for a week. I've never left her side in the 2,5 years she's been here. Maybe I deserve a break.


You might be able to get a bit of a break if you hire a sitter to watch your 2.5 yr old. The sitter could want your child in your home while you are there. But you could take care of yourself, nap, etc. I did this when my son was young. There was a high school girl I found through word of mouth who would come a few times a week to give me a break.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Good idea about the sitter. Still sucks to have to shell out money when he should be here to help me out, since this is his child and I am pregnant with his other one.

I've been reading about sociopathy and he does seem to fit some of the bill. I'm not sharing this with anyone else though. I always knew there was something off about him, especially with regard to lack of empathy and lying, plus his huge investments in being seen as a really nice guy (image management), but since he doesn't commit crimes I didn't think this could be it. I chalked it up to thick headedness in the beginning, especially because he always knew the right words to say. Later he started using my own shortcomings to justify his emotional cruelties, but before he knew what they were he used other excuses to justify the same behavior.

He got me an iPad for christmas, something that I've wanted for a while. Now I don't know whether to return it to him or go to the store and exchange it for something else since my family already got me one. I bought him nothing and refused to speak to him when he called today. I definetly felt very guilty since this is a pretty big gift, but I figure these guilty feelings are my downfall. I am not giving in to them. Suggestions are welcome.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Sociopathic personalities do not have to be criminal. It's the lack of empathy and the charming to manipulate that is typical. Gaslighting is a way of life for this type of person.

You ask for suggestions, but it seems like the only real advice for you is to get away from your H. I'm sorry.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Sociopathic personalities do not have to be criminal. It's the lack of empathy and the charming to manipulate that is typical. Gaslighting is a way of life for this type of person.
> 
> You ask for suggestions, but it seems like the only real advice for you is to get away from your H. I'm sorry.


Hi Alte Dame, I meant suggestions on what to do with the christmas gift, actually. Should I return it to him? Exchange it for something else at the store? I feel almost sorry for him that he bought me an awesome gift thinking I would love it, but my family already got me the same thing.


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

I was involved with one of these.
It's useless to try to show anyone how 'right' you are.
You can try to engage in this battle, or you can step away from the doo-doo and construct your life by surrounding yourself with sane people. Therapy (while you are not crazy by nature, but made crazy by your sweet nature that can be offended by crazy-making...) can help you constructively move on, also sedatives are useful because of course this sort of thing has caused anxiety, stress and upheaval. The only way to move on, is to, well, move on. So long as you stay engaged by attempting to show you are correct and wronged and he is not whom he seems, the longer you expose yourself to the hurts and long-term damages of this situation. Let other people learn for themselves how it is with him, you don't need to warn off anyone, and in fact it will just cause them to believe that you're nuts, because of what he has told them (and you can't know how bad that is, nor should you want to!) It's not your problem, it's theirs. This is a relational issue, and it can be solved by turning off your relating to him. Block that channel. Completely. By whatever (legal) means.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I was involved with one of these.
> It's useless to try to show anyone how 'right' you are.
> You can try to engage in this battle, or you can step away from the doo-doo and construct your life by surrounding yourself with sane people. Therapy (while you are not crazy by nature, but made crazy by your sweet nature that can be offended by crazy-making...) can help you constructively move on, also sedatives are useful because of course this sort of thing has caused anxiety, stress and upheaval. The only way to move on, is to, well, move on. So long as you stay engaged by attempting to show you are correct and wronged and he is not whom he seems, the longer you expose yourself to the hurts and long-term damages of this situation. Let other people learn for themselves how it is with him, you don't need to warn off anyone, and in fact it will just cause them to believe that you're nuts, because of what he has told them (and you can't know how bad that is, nor should you want to!) It's not your problem, it's theirs. This is a relational issue, and it can be solved by turning off your relating to him. Block that channel. Completely. By whatever (legal) means.


Thanks for your words. You are so right. And I am doing just that. I am going no-contact and having all communications relayed through third parties so he doesn't have a chance to touch me in any way. I've found this is the only way to preserve sanity and well-being, otherwise he turns everything around on me and this thick fog encircles my brain. I actually start believing what he says. It's insane. Now that I've had some time to myself, the sheer callousness of his behavior has me quite shocked. But I'm not strong enough yet to engage directly with him. I wonder if I ever will be. Something tells me this isn't at all about being in a stronger place... he is just psychologically dangerous, period. 

He will never stop cheating or hurting me. Never.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

I used to want everyone to see what he was all about because I didn't trust this wasn't me. Everyone thought he was perfect and it was me. Do any of you realize how horrible this is? I was living in hell for 8 long painful years. Divorce sucks, having your dreams taken from you is devastating... but I'm also incredibly relieved. I will never go back there and I will never give him the power to hurt me again. Now I understand that his words are empty and he never loved me at all.

Infidelity is soul destroying. Having an std while you are pregnant is criminal. But being emotionally and mentally abused is far worse.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> He seems like a shy, sensitive, vulnerable guy.


Ironically, those may be a part of his persona. But if they are sublimated by a need to cheat, to control and to be a POS, then those positive attributes mean jack s***!

Out him as the dastard that he seems to be!


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SandyD said:


> Good idea about the sitter. Still sucks to have to shell out money when he should be here to help me out, since this is his child and I am pregnant with his other one.
> 
> I've been reading about sociopathy and he does seem to fit some of the bill. I'm not sharing this with anyone else though. I always knew there was something off about him, especially with regard to lack of empathy and lying, plus his huge investments in being seen as a really nice guy (image management), but since he doesn't commit crimes I didn't think this could be it. I chalked it up to thick headedness in the beginning, especially because he always knew the right words to say. Later he started using my own shortcomings to justify his emotional cruelties, but before he knew what they were he used other excuses to justify the same behavior.
> 
> He got me an iPad for christmas, something that I've wanted for a while. Now I don't know whether to return it to him or go to the store and exchange it for something else since my family already got me one. I bought him nothing and refused to speak to him when he called today. I definetly felt very guilty since this is a pretty big gift, but I figure these guilty feelings are my downfall. I am not giving in to them. Suggestions are welcome.


Don't give the gift back to him. Either exchange it for something you would like to have or get the money. I have a feeling that you are going to need the money. For one thing you can use it to hire someone to help with your little one while you get some rest.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

SandyD said:


> What I want to know is this:
> Although I know I want to divorce, why does his callousness hurt so much? Why isn't he being nicer even though I'm pregnant, have a toddler to take care of, am on bed rest because of the STD he gave me? What is it that he wants, exactly? I'm doing no contact because I was being way too nice and empathetic before, and he was acting so dismissive. So I decided I needed to protect my feelings instead of playing games and getting my feelings hurt.
> 
> What is he doing?


I have not read this thread at all so my answer may be redundant. 

I think he's trying to cover his fanny for appearances sake. He isn't concerned about you or the baby. He is only concerned for himself. You don't matter. If you did, he never would have betrayed you and he'd sure as hell be more of a man about things now. 

You may not like what I am about to say, but here it is.....

Divorce him, expose and shame him, then sue him for giving you an std in the way he did. Sorry to say, but in your post this guy seems like he's turned into a grade A loser- with a capitol "L".


----------



## mel123 (Aug 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I am not trying to put a mental health diagnosis on your husband, but in a general sense his attitude sound like those of a sociopath. Many sociopaths are very charming.That's how they fool people. They are unable to feel any kind of empathy. They only see their side of a situation.
> 
> 
> .


:iagree:

So true and they are very good at manipulating people too.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Don't give the gift back to him. Either exchange it for something you would like to have or get the money. I have a feeling that you are going to need the money. For one thing you can use it to hire someone to help with your little one while you get some rest.


Right, it seems silly to return it to him since he's asking me to pay him back for the gas left in the car the day he left (among other inappropriate charges), yet went out of his way to buy me an expensive-ish gift. That sure doesn't make any sense. I guess he can be nice, but on his terms and as long as there's an audience (the gift was dropped off at my mom's, where I opened it).

Sometimes I have this vision of him where he's holding a cardboard cut-out of himself in front of him, showing a really nice sweet person who is always smiling. Behind it is a very angry man who is frothing at the mouth and yelling obscenities, but it's really hard to see him except through his actions.


----------



## dubbizle (Jan 15, 2012)

He is not going to stop,so the only person who can stop it is you by divorce and getting child support so get a lawer and get out now if you can.He knows how to work people so I would not count on anybody else.
Do people on here ever think that others don't care if a friend is having an affair and are to busy wrapped up in their lives[paying bills,raising kids ect] and are also just glad it not them,so that expose,expose expose does not always work.Then some say call their work.its work and if I am somebodies boss i would say this is a job and we focus on that.


----------



## EndlessFire (Dec 26, 2012)

Did he never treat his ex this way? No one, ever, has seen him act like this? Is he talking to the therapist? Both him and your mother are mentally unstable? You have a family history of mental illness? Your pregnancy is causing you stress? You have a no contact order but you want him to come to your house and you're pissed that he won't take your calls or tell you exactly where he is going? 
Tell me if anything I have asked here is untrue, please. I know for a fact that people with certain mental disorders will get worse with pregnancy, and seek out validation for their feelings with lies and half truths. 
PS: Please do not hurt someone or yourself. (In reference to your statement that you wanted him to hurt.)


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Stay away. Go, go, EndlessFire. WH I should say?


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

As for the gift - return it for cash or exchange it. It seems like your clarity is only there if you are not around him.

Remember that your STD diagnosis and his cheating are not figments of your imagination.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

EndlessFire said:


> Did he never treat his ex this way? No one, ever, has seen him act like this? Is he talking to the therapist? Both him and your mother are mentally unstable? You have a family history of mental illness? Your pregnancy is causing you stress? You have a no contact order but you want him to come to your house and you're pissed that he won't take your calls or tell you exactly where he is going?
> Tell me if anything I have asked here is untrue, please. I know for a fact that people with certain mental disorders will get worse with pregnancy, and seek out validation for their feelings with lies and half truths.
> PS: Please do not hurt someone or yourself. (In reference to your statement that you wanted him to hurt.)


I'll answer.

According to him, his relationship with his ex was perfect. Yes, he did cheat on her once, but the reason they broke up is that he fell in love with their roomate. He was in love with her the whole last year of their 3 year relationship. But nothing ever happened. He stopped having sex with the ex and, when pressed, confessed to being in love with the other girl. they split for a while, then got back together for a month or so until they graduated college and moved to different states. They still remained very close, but the ex didn't want to resume their relationship. He told me he thout his ex was ugly and that she dressed weird, among other things, but that she was a cool person. I was, in retrospect, his rebound.

No, no one has ever seen him act like this. He has never had any other relationships except for the ex and me. We've been together 8 years.

Yes, he did speak with two therapists. One was our marriage counselor and the other his own therapist. His therapist told him to divorce me after two 30-minute sessions and also told him I didn't love him. I have no idea what was said during those sessions, but I can guess he used his time to make me out to be a monster, as he does with friends and family. And I may very well be, who knows? But when I asked him whether maybe his therapist was right, he simply told me the guy was too young and inexperienced and didn't know what he was talking about. He said he would find another therapist. But whenever we fought, he would say that he was going to continue seeing this therapist. I never once asked him to seek out someone else.

I don't think him and my mother are mentally unstable. I know my mother has very strong narcissistic features and he has very strong passive aggressive features (he agrees).

My pregnancy is not causing me stress. In fact, I'm doing quite ok. I did stress out during the first trimester (became slightly depressed), after he confessed to cheating on me during our relationship before we got married. The problem is I have had bleeding episodes, so I am under doctor's orders to rest. This is difficult because he did a lot of travel for work this last month and has now taken a vacation with no expected return date. He knows the situation but has chosen not to be here to help me out with our daughter.

Yes, i have established no contact. A close family member is intermediating all our communications. He never comes by the house, our daughter is dropped off and picked up at this relative's house at his convenience. I never call him. I don't care where he is going. 

So, yes, everything you've said seems to be untrue. But I could be wrong, of course. I have only stated facts here, no subjective statements at all. And none of what I've stated were lies or half truths. 

I have no intention of hurting myself or him. I said I wanted him to hurt because not only did he do some pretty despicable things to me, he doesn't seem the least bit remorseful or ashamed. But I could be mistaken, maybe he is those things. I just haven't seen it though.

If I do have some type of mental disorder, it has never been diagnosed or medicated. And I have seen therapists due to my mother's abuse and also the marriage therapist.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

It could be an exaggeration to say he has sociopathic (not psychopathic) features as well, but his lack of empathy and self-centerdness (seen in his actions), in contrast with his projected persona that was anything but those things (seen in his words) has always confused me deeply. 

The reason I stayed with hime was because a)I loved him and b)I bought it when he told me I was the reason he hurt me and that our marriage was rocky. 

And maybe I am to blame, which I highly doubt. However, I don't care anymore. I want out, period. He can blame me til the cows come home and I can change every aspect of my personality he doesn't like and it still won't matter. You know why? Because he doesn't like me, much less love me. And I have no idea why he's even married to me. It makes no sense at all.


----------



## EndlessFire (Dec 26, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Stay away. Go, go, EndlessFire. WH I should say?


What??? This doesn't even make sense to me.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

EndlessFire said:


> What??? This doesn't even make sense to me.


He questioned whether you were a WH (Wandering Husband).


----------



## EndlessFire (Dec 26, 2012)

SandyD said:


> He questioned whether you were a WH (Wandering Husband).


Well in that case, nope. Single mother of two boys who has dealt with mentally ill people who have played 'woe is me, I'm treated horribly and no else knows anything about it but me'. I have seen pregnancy turn even the most non confrontatial women into liars and maniuplators. That is why my post was questioning. BTW, very sexist of you to automatically think I'm a man simply because I didn't fall on the he must an ******* bandwagon. There are actually women who think other women may be wrong! GASP!!!!


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Actually, I think the remark might have been intended to question whether you were OP's WH gaslighting her on her own thread. You sound like it.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

EndlessFire, I do thank you for your perspective. I am definetly not above questioning myself. In fact, I have been speaking with close friends and family endlessly to see my contributions to the demise of my marriage. I do agree that pregnancy makes us a little crazy. 

Unfortunately, friends and family members who used to hold my husband in high regard are now falling prey to his games as well. I do believe there are wolves in sheep's clothing in this world. I was lied to and cheated on repeatedly, this is a fact. I was mentally abused as well. 

Not once in these eight years did I speak with anyone about my husband's mistreatment. I am too private and am the kind of person who easily blames herself for everything. And I do know I haven't always treated him nicely either, but how much of that was a normal by-product of his general untrustworthiness and how much actually came from me... I still dont know. All I know is that I feel loads better when he isn't around.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

When I say friends and family are falling prey to his games, I mean they are starting to understand what I'm talking about because it's happening to them as well. I don't even have to say a word.


----------



## sharkeey (Apr 27, 2012)

SandyD said:


> I have been separated .. for a little over a month but have not initiated divorce proceedings. No reconciliation is intended on my part.





SandyD said:


> I'm doing no contact


You're separated for a month and you have no intention of reconciling, you haven't yet filed for divorce for reasons that are unspecified, and you say you are "no contact".



SandyD said:


> In fact, when I asked him to accompany me to an ultrasound scan after yet another std-related bleeding (I was distraught and scared of going by myself and didn't want to tell anyone about the bleedings), he told me I had paranoid personality disorder while we were in the waiting room.





SandyD said:


> he's asking me to pay him back for the gas left in the car the day he left (among other inappropriate charges),


Yet you ask him to accompany you to the doctor's office because you are scared of going by yourself. You exchange Christmas presents and have ridiculous conversations with him about paying for the gasoline in his car and you put up with him calling you names and suggesting you're mentally ill.

Yet you're separated and supposedly no contact. Stop asking him to go to doctor's offices with you.



SandyD said:


> Although I know I want to divorce, why does his callousness hurt so much?


Because you continue to speak to him and tolerate the abuse rather than filing for divorce and getting rid of him once and for all. If you keep walking through the coals your feet will still blister even if the flames are extinguished.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

How are you otherwise, SandyD. You sound like you're not as isolated as you were.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Last shenanigan, as an update:

STBX decided he would make a surprise appearance at the New Year's bash I was attending. He was 100% supported and encouraged by my mother, as he told the hostess. Thank god he called the hostess before arriving, because she dissuaded him from that idea. He was angry. She didn't tell me about it at the time so as not to spoil my evening.

The next day he was frantically calling my Aunt, bawling his eyes out, because he wanted to see our daughter. Since we had gone to bed unusually late, we woke up at 10am. I called back as soon as I saw the missed calls. I rushed my daughter over to my Aunt's and then... nada. My STBX has turned off his mobile. So I went and did other fun things with my daughter. He only called my Aunt back at 4 or 5 in the afternoon, saying he had gone for a bike ride and would call back tomorrow to see his daughter.

He called, asked to see me, I told him I still wan't ready, but that I'd drop our daughter off. So I'm unpacking her stuff from the car in front of my Aunt's house and I see this man running towards me. It was him. He had parked his car out of view and waited for me to arrive. He hugged me and our daughter, said he wanted to get back together and cried. I acted normal. He looked and sounded so sincere, it took me two hours to remember his last affair was a month before I got pregnant. He still denies despite undisputable evidence (even the therapist agrees).


So now he's playing games with our daughter, is trying to ambush me and still doesn't express any shame for what he's done (much less admit to some of it). He tested negative for chlamydia and is claiming he didn't give it to me. He thinks I contracted this 8 years ago and somehow only manifested symptoms now. Funny because I was tested twice during my last pregnany and they were both negative.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

sharkeey said:


> You're separated for a month and you have no intention of reconciling, you haven't yet filed for divorce for reasons that are unspecified, and you say you are "no contact".
> 
> 
> *Honestly, I'm just trying to breathe a little here before I go any further. I don't think there's a deadline to file these things. I am no contact, or very low contact at the least. *
> ...


*You are right and I will do that.*


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> How are you otherwise, SandyD. You sound like you're not as isolated as you were.


Hey AlteDame... getting stronger... still on the roller coaster though, where I expect to be for a while still. But in the grand scheme of things, I think I'm doing quite alright. I am starting to remember who I used to be. It's a good feeling. I feel free. 

Still wish none of this was true, that it was just a nightmare. I still pray for a miracle, but I'm not counting on it.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Do you know for sure that he tested negative for the STD? Did he show you the paperwork?


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Do you know for sure that he tested negative for the STD? Did he show you the paperwork?


Yes, he did. The first one, at least. He did a couple more tests I think, one here and one in his hometown. I think they were all negative.

My doctor told me it was possible that he has the disease but it may not register on exams (???), however he could still pass it on to others. His doctors, according to him, told him he didn't have it, period. I tried researching it on the internet but it's all very complicated and I'm not a doctor.

Anyways, I was treated and everything is fine now. No more bleedings.

Either way, he has been with prostitutes and was recently cheating on me, so I'm pretty damn sure how I got it.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

He's really a slippery devil. No wonder it's taken you so long to see the light with him. You sound very grounded now, so I hope things stay calm for the duration of the pregnancy.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Thanks alteDame... it's been very eye opening to have the support of this forum and from wise people like you. Sometimes it's easier to know what's going on when we're not involved. My ex was judged here by his actions, not his sad puppy face, and I'm learning to do that as well. It's not easy though. 

The one thing that struck me and a few friends as odd is that he feelsno shame. Had I cheated on my hubby and been found out, I could never look in his friend's or family's eyes for a long time. He is the opposite. He has no qualms about going to my mom's house to visit over coffee as if nothing ever happened. He meets with mutual friends and puts on his "I'm so sad, I miss my family" face, gets his male friends to feel sorry for him (I have no idea what BS he serves these people), but otherwise enjoys himself. The focus is ME ME AND MY FEELINGS, never what he did, never his (ex)wife's feelings, never her needs or pregnancy.

I told hm once that he had betrayed our family and he told me "I did no such thing, I only betrayed you". Mind you, he had sex with a hooker when I was pregnant with our first baby and god only knows how many other times.

This is all very foreign to me and it's another reason why I think you're all right: he does have sociopathic tendencies.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

SandyD said:


> Yes, he did. The first one, at least. He did a couple more tests I think, one here and one in his hometown. I think they were all negative.
> 
> My doctor told me it was possible that he has the disease but it may not register on exams (???), however he could still pass it on to others. His doctors, according to him, told him he didn't have it, period. I tried researching it on the internet but it's all very complicated and I'm not a doctor.
> 
> ...


I expect you know this already, that untreated chlamydia in men can cause a form of arthritis--and also, a kind of eye infection that if untreated can lead to blindness (in fact, I read that about 15% of people worldwide who become blind had chlamydia conjunctivitis).

Chlamydia Causes, Symptoms, Treatment - Chlamydia Prognosis on eMedicineHealth

Reactive arthritis definition - eMedicineHealth - experts in everyday emergencies, first aid and health information

As many as 50% of men are entirely symptomless when they have chlamydia, so his situation is far from unusual.

I find his entire attitude about what he has done--his lack of remorse and his numerous lies--quite frightening. This disease could have rendered you sterile and is a cause of blindness in newborns. His manipulative nature is downright creepy and I'm glad you're getting the heck away from him.

Unfortunately, it seems that you must be incredibly cautious about your relationship with your mother. I would not be telling her anything of any significance, because it seems she will simply turn it against you.

Do you think he would ever harm you or your child? Would he ever try to abscond with your child? Hiding the car and running at you, under the circumstances, seems very creepy to me. I don't think you'll ever know the "real" him--he seems to show people what they want to see, he is someone who is false in every way.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> I expect you know this already, that untreated chlamydia in men can cause a form of arthritis--and also, a kind of eye infection that if untreated can lead to blindness (in fact, I read that about 15% of people worldwide who become blind had chlamydia conjunctivitis).
> 
> Chlamydia Causes, Symptoms, Treatment - Chlamydia Prognosis on eMedicineHealth
> 
> ...


There was an instance when she was a baby where he was grossly neglectful. She was crying and he went to get her. I think he was mad at me for some reason that day. Well, he fell asleep on the couch and didn't know where the baby had slept. He basically fell asleep and let a 10 month old run around the house free. None of our household chemicals were locked away and he didn't shut any doors. She really had free reign all night long.

When I woke up the next day, I asked him where she had slept since he slept on the couch. He said he didn't know, but that she must've slept.

I was horrified because the way he was talking was like it was no big deal at all. So I got confused.

I called my mother to ask her whether that was normal. Big mistake. Of course she sided with him and told me "Oh, I'm sure he didn't really sleep. He had an eye on here". I didnt matter that I told her he slept heavily and had no idea what happened, she still thought I was mistaken.

So there ya go.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

EndlessFire said:


> BTW, very sexist of you to automatically think I'm a man simply because I didn't fall on the he must an ******* bandwagon. There are actually women who think other women may be wrong! GASP!!!!


I didn't think you were a random WH but her WH. The one telling everybody his STBWX is nuts for years, way before the pregnancy, way before the STD, way before... Not the first time the cheater partner come here to isolate their BSs from the TAM support. Given you were challenging her mental health as he uses to do I suspected another mindf0ck on his part. As he's trying again with turning the STD issue on her past.
BTW; the one with 'woe is me, I'm treated horribly and no else knows anything about it but me' song is STBXH.

Sandy, you sound in a better shape, NC is a Godsend. Glad to hear it.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Sandy, you sound in a better shape, NC is a Godsend. Glad to hear it.


Thank you Acabado, I certainly do feel better but I know I still have a long ways to go. You all practically saved my life here and helped me have the confidence to reach out for as much support as I can get in the real world. I rediscovered people who truly love me, care about me and, much to my surprise after so much abuse, don't think I'm crazy in the least. 

I cannot tell you how thankful I am. NC has been the best thing for me. No way could I have imagined how much it would've helped me. 

You all are touching people's real lives here. I salute each and every one of you who take time from your busy schedules to offer real and unmatched support and wisdom to those who are just starting out on this painful journey. It's people like you that make me proud to be part of the human race.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Just in case.

*Hoovering- Don't Get Sucked Back In*
Hoovering 
Definition: 
Hoovers & Hoovering - A Hoover is a metaphor, taken from the popular brand of vacuum cleaners, to describe how an abuse victim, trying to assert their own rights by leaving or limiting contact in a dysfunctional relationship gets "sucked back in" when the perpetrator temporarily exhibits improved or desirable behavior. 
Description: 
The Hoovering metaphor comes from the popular Hoover brand of vacuum cleaners. Hoovering describes how a non-personality-disordered person, while attempting to escape an abusive situation, gets sucked back into the status quo. 
Hoovering commonly occurs: 
After an emotional outburst, violence or other extreme period of abuse when the victim is most likely to leave, retaliate or seek help from others. 
When the victim starts to pull away from the relationship, leave the relationship or establish firmer boundaries within the relationship. 
When the abuser internally feels unworthy and fears the loss of the relationship. 
A hoovering abuser may shower their victim with gifts, compliments, promises, demonstrations of love and affection in order to persuade the victim to maintain the status quo. 
Hoovering is one of the key components of an Abusive Cycle. Without Hoovering, most abusers would be living alone. Hoovering is the "plus side" to many abusers that makes an abusive relationship seem worthwhile to many victims and sustains abusive relationships over the long term. 
Hoovering requires two willing parties to be effective: the person doing the hoovering and the person being hoovered, who allows themselves to be abused and then sucked back in. 
What it feels like: 
Hoovering feels good! And that's the point! When you are being hoovered, your buttons are all getting pushed, your feelings are getting validated, your needs are being met, your wildest dreams are coming true, your opinions matter, you are the most important person in the world to that certain person. 
Hoovering often feels like vindication. You might find yourself thinking “Finally! The message is getting through! I’m not crazy after all! Now THAT is what I’m talking about!” But watch out... 
When you are starving for any emotional food, just about any kind of personal validation tastes wonderful, but you must remember that not everything that tastes delicious is nutritious. 
Manipulative abusers are often adept at giving their victims enough of what they want to keep them where they want them. Even slave owners know that they have to feed them enough to keep them healthy and productive. 
But how do I know if a hoover is 'real"? 
Many Non-personality disordered people struggle with trying to tell whether a hoover really is a hoover, or if it is a sincere attempt at change by the personality-disordered person whom they care about. 
The mistake in that logic is that it assumes that it can't be both. Many abusers and personality-disordered people really are sincere and really are trying when they also are hoovering. People who are hoovering you may not be consciously trying to manipulate you or deceive you. They may sincerely be trying, even hoping, to make it "better this time". They may not be consciously lying when they make promises of change and put them into practice. They may be so convincing because they are so convinced. 
You are going to have to be like the adult in a parent-child relationship, who listens to their child's black-and-white promises of great expectations or of "I'll never talk to him/her again" and says "Hmm, we'll wait and see". 
If you're not sure if you're being hoovered you should wait and see. Take the long-term view. A person's character is like an average of their behaviors over their lifetime. People can and do make positive changes in their lives sometimes, deciding to change their behavior for the better. Wait a year and see. 
Coping with Hoovering: 
If somebody who has been treating you abusively starts to treat you well, there's no harm in letting them knock themselves out and give yourself a break, but you must be careful not to take the bait to erode your boundaries, settle for less than you deserve, stop doing things that are healthy for you or stop exercising your own independence. 
What NOT to do: 
Don't change any of your boundaries or allow them to be broken during a hoover. 
Don't relax or give up on any consequences of previous poor decisions for the abuser. 
Don't stop any healthy activities or relationships you may be engaged in elsewhere. 
Don't assume the hoover will last forever. 
Don't use a hoover to bargain for a better life. You are setting up the abuser to break a promise and setting yourself up for a disappointment. 
What TO do: 
Remember that mood swings are a normal part of a number of personality disorders and that what goes up must come down. 
Accept that highs and lows are a part of everyone's emotional life and that, for a personality-disordered person, those may be more intense and lead swings in behavior. 
Maintain all your healthy lifestyle habits and relationships with others. 
Take the long-term view. Wait a year. 
Get yourself off the roller coaster. Position yourself so that your safety and happiness isn't dependent on a personality-disordered person's mood. 

Source:
Out of the FOG - Hoovers and Hoovering


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

What is Hoovering? 
Think of a big old vacumn cleaner gliding along the carpet making a LOT of noise coming your way with promises that it will clean up the mess and make everything "right". 
Hoovering is when the abuser wants to "suck" you back in to the abuser's "game". This means that the abuser needs some more of what we call "narcissistic source" or attention. This can be negative or positive attention. 
An abuser will use many different kinds of hoovering attempts. 
Some examples of hoovering include: 
1. Health issues. The abuser will need you to help them out because they are having health issues. 
2. Promises of change. They say they will go to therapy. They will do "anything" to make you happy. False, empty promises they are, but the abuser can seem to be convincing and serious about it. 
3. Fianacial issues. The abuser contacts you and says that he will lose everything if you don't give him money. It is always a crisis. 
4. The abuser will show up at club meetings, school activities, events, etc where you attend and will begin to give you meaningful looks or try to speak with you. 
5. Calls, Texts, E mails. You will boot up your computere one day to find you are once again being "love bombed" by e mail. Or by texts on your phone. This is why you have to block them from being able to contact you in any way. 
6. *By triangulation. Sometimes the abusers will use family members or friends who will call you or just run into you and who will give you a message from the abuser. *
ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT ABUSERS DON'T CHANGE. JUST BECAUSE THEY SAY THEY HAVE CHANGED, ONLY CONSISTENT LONG-TERM POSITIVE BEHAVIOR CAN PROVE IT. 
A few nice words don't really mean anything except they were spoken.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

SandyD said:


> ....I rediscovered people who truly love me, care about me and, much to my surprise after so much abuse, don't think I'm crazy in the least.


Your H has isolated you and your mother is not a help at all. I'm so glad that you now have the confidence to reach out to the people in your life who are true friends.

What Acabado posted about hoovering is very important, I think. Your H will make his attempts, alternating them with shocking neglect no doubt, so do your best to resist getting sucked in, literally.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Your H has isolated you and your mother is not a help at all. I'm so glad that you now have the confidence to reach out to the people in your life who are true friends.


I don't think he directly isolated me, if anything I'm pretty good at doing that all by myself. He would tell me that people thought awful things about me, though. And also that I wasn't very friendly. Funny because, although I'm shy, I always smile a lot and try to be nice and engage people in conversation. He would tell me that the way I viewed mysef was not the way other people viewed me, which really confused me as well. 

He just made me feel really lousy about myself, so that did excacerbate my tendency to be alone. I'm very sensitive. Also, some of his friends and family would give me really weird vibes that I didn't quite understand at the time, but later I discovered it was because he had been badmouthing me to them. He played the victim card with others all the time, but not once did he approach me to discuss any issues. It was all behind my back. In front of me, he'd say he was ok and say yes to everything I asked.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Oh, his motto around me is that he wants to "take care of me". He says that a lot. He also says I'm difficult and that no one would care about me like he does. Funny because I did have a few long-term relationships before him and I'm still on very good terms with ALL my exes, a couple are good buddies and would go out of their way for me if need be. So I can't be all that bad. 

Another strange side-effect of separation: I was feeling quite dumpy and old. STBX subtly made it hard for me to buy clothes because he said almost everything I liked was ugly or not my style and then buy me clothes that weren't my style at all. So slowly I morphed into someone I'm not.
All of a sudden I am starting to feel pretty again. I haven't had a guy look at me FOR YEARS!!!!! And now it's happening again. Of course, I'm not looking, but it feels so good to be getting back to myself.

At the New Year's bash I went to, the hostess was talking to me and another girl and told us that she told her daughter "how beautiful you were". I didn't know she was talking about me, so I kind of smiled politely, did a double take then went: "Oh, are you talking about me? Thank you!" hahaha.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> Oh, his motto around me is that he wants to "take care of me". He says that a lot. He also says I'm difficult and that no one would care about me like he does.


Sure, you a child, his project.



> STBX subtly made it hard for me to buy clothes because he said almost everything I liked was ugly or not my style and then buy me clothes that weren't my style at all. So slowly I morphed into someone I'm not.


Controling to the max. Destroying your self steem. Make you depending on him.

He would keep moving the target in order to have you off balance, dependent on him. He hates you are independent, self confident, moving on from him. You are wounding his narcissistic core. How dare you!


Keep hanging there.


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

So sorry to read about your situation. I was lurking on your posts but didn’t write in until now. I hope you and your daughter are doing okay and that your pregnancy is healthy given all that your husband has put you and your unborn child through.

Don’t feel bad about the gift AT ALL. I don’t know your husband but I am pretty certain that the gift wasn’t from the heart. He sounds so much like my ex it’s uncanny. The iPad was probably just another pawn on his chessboard to make himself look good in front of your mother or to play with your heartstrings... I would return the gift for the cash and put it towards a sitter or something I really want/need. Don’t feel bad about returning it. Asking you for gas? You’re his wife, you shouldn’t owe for that.

The wolf in sheep’s clothing remark you made sounds quite fitting. It is wise to continue looking at his actions – not his words. My ex has tried similar things as yours has and some of them worked on me a little, but not enough for me to go back. I am still holding strong and looking at what he does – not what he says has been very enlightening. It is very easy to get pulled in by emotional pleas or superficial niceties (like the iPad gift) if you’re not careful. 

Continuing to expose, remaining in limited to no contact and looking objectively at what he did/is doing should be the most helpful. People like your husband have a very good way of making you look like the bad guy, all the while treating you very badly. That’s also why it’s easy to second-guess yourself even when you’re being mistreated or abused. My ex convinced me that I was an awful, over-reacting, angry woman. Even in the instance that he was emotionally manipulating me, yelling at me and left me alone in my driveway to cart in all of my groceries when I was nine months pregnant. Unfortunately, your mother also sounds very toxic and I would continue limited contact with her as well.


> All of a sudden I am starting to feel pretty again. I haven't had a guy look at me FOR YEARS!!!!! And now it's happening again. Of course, I'm not looking, but it feels so good to be getting back to myself.


It’s funny how that can happen. While a lot of people feel their lowest as soon as they’re separated, sometimes it can have the reverse affect. Like you, finding out my ex was cheating and kicking him out of the house was the first time I started reclaiming my personal power and self-esteem in a long time. I was pregnant and big as a house but felt oddly beautiful somehow once he was gone. They just pick-pick-pick at you in little ways, trying to make you think they’re more logical, morally superior, smarter, balanced etc. and do and say things to knock you off-balance so you believe it, eventually you don’t recognize yourself anymore or become the shell of a person you used to be as you change to suit their ideals. 

Hang in there and keep posting. I found the support here to be invaluable and it sounds like so far it is helping you as well.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Wow Miss Taken, you're going through this as well? I guess you're a few steps ahead of me. Can you link me to your original thread?

Everything you said was spot on. Exactly what I and others have been thinking as well. I am selling the iPad... and he knows it. I feel no sense of guilt whatsoever anymore. 

I do hope we're all able to get past this with minimum scarring. 

Despite everything, one thing is for sure... we will be wiser and stronger in the end. And we will be able to teach something very valuable to our daughters.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

I also think the reason no one looked at me was because I walked around with blinders on. I wouldn't have noticed anyway. I'm way too loyal and wouldn't even dare look at a guy, whenever I did I felt like a creepy old lady. And I'm 35!! My husband made me feel as desirable as a can of old peas (he witheld sex, as the good passive agressive he is). 

Now, all of a sudden, I'm also noticing how other men are beautiful. It's like they all popped up from out of nowhere. I even blushed the other day when a handsome fellow bumped his shopping cart into mine. hihihihi!


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Hey Sandy,

I joined back in August 2012. I was 8+ months pregnant. I have boys though. My youngest son is 31/2 months old now. The circumstances are different but your husband's attitudes and behaviors are very similar to my ex. Instead of using my mother he tried to use his father to get back with me – actually sent his dad here asking me to let him come home... and his mother adds another set of complications to the mix. The “wolf in sheep’s clothing” sentiment rings true because he is horrible to me in private and very charming, helpful, proper, attentive, generous (all of the above) when people are watching. Nobody but me knows what he is really like to live with. His family and our mutual friends have never had to see it.

I wasn't legally married. We were together a little over 9 years and have two kids together. I was lucky not to get an STD (still had the embarrassment of going for an STD test while pregnant though). And while your mom is unavailable due to narcissism, my mom is unavailable due to her death. 

My story is in a few pieces. On here, I've only shared about his cyber affairs but have learned more things after the fact that prove he's had sexual affairs and at least one EA at work that I haven’t addressed here anyway; here are some links to my original story.

I'm due with our second child in three weeks...

11 Days Gone/of 180 and he wants to come home

and Very Angry Childbirth Rant

I am no longer looking at my situation from a relationship-saving perspective but I am still in the healing process and trying to move on with that for me and my kids. Again, I am so sorry that you have to go through this. Infidelity, separation, and abuse is all hard to go through but being pregnant makes it really hard.The longer you’re here, the more often you notice stories that are much like your own. Like I said earlier, there is a lot of support to be had here. This place was a lifesaver for me when I was at my worst. 

It can/does (and for me, is) getting better though. I really think as sh!tty as this is, you will come out so much stronger eventually when you come out the other side.


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

SandyD said:


> I also think the reason no one looked at me was because I walked around with blinders on. I wouldn't have noticed anyway. I'm way too loyal and wouldn't even dare look at a guy, whenever I did I felt like a creepy old lady. And I'm 35!! My husband made me feel as desirable as a can of old peas (he witheld sex, as the good passive agressive he is).
> 
> Now, all of a sudden, I'm also noticing how other men are beautiful. It's like they all popped up from out of nowhere. I even blushed the other day when a handsome fellow bumped his shopping cart into mine. hihihihi!


I can relate to walking around with blinders. I missed a lot of things that are all too clear to me now. If we weren't working as a couple, I let him convince me that it was my fault or that I was asking too much of him. I even went to counseling to address my "anger". Standing outside, talking to my neighbour and singing praises about my ex H, is still etched in my brain. It was two days before I discovered he was cheating. I believed he was a good man. So when I said he was a good and attentive father, I was telling the truth. 

My ex was also passive aggressive. He didn't withhold sex. He withheld affection from me to hurt me. Sex with him was the only opportunity for closeness for me because he withheld all affection outside of sex to punish me. To top it off, the sex wasn't intimate. It was usually porn-style sex, devoid of affection, kissing, foreplay etc. I could have literally been anyone else and it wouldn't have mattered.

Also, anything that I complimented him on was soon stopped. If I thanked him for doing ___ or told him I liked ____, he'd never do it again. 

He also projected his cheating/guilty conscience on me. If a man opened the door for me I was flirting! If I talked to a man at a family party I was flirting. If I stayed up late on my computer at night, I was having cyber sex. It got to the point where I would look at the ground if an attractive male walked by as I didn't want to be accused of checking him out or flirting even though none of those things were true of me.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Oh Miss, I almost feel like we are the same person. Actually, our PA exes made us follow the same script. We never chose it. We had no choice. And we fell hook line and sinker... only to be saved by... infidelity. Isn't it weird how something awful during what was supposed to be a joyous moment in our lives could literally save our sanity?

I also view my husband's infidelity as my wake up call. Their abuse is so subtle and strange, and is so hard to explain to people sometimes (or even fully grasp it in our own heads), but there's nothing to question about infidelity. 

How twisted. Life is funny sometimes. I honestly believe infidelity was the only thing that could make me leave. And someone sure did listen to my prayers.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Oh, by the way, I went to counseling to address my "borderline personality disorder". hahahahaha!!!!!!!!! Too bad I didn't have it.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

The only reason we stayed in these marriages was that we blamed ourselves. They knew this, and they worked hard to keep us second-guessing ourselves.

The moment we no longer blamed ourselves was the moment we were set free.


----------



## sharkeey (Apr 27, 2012)

SandyD said:


> I honestly believe infidelity was the only thing that could make me leave. And someone sure did listen to my prayers.


You prayed that your husband wold cheat on you?


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

sharkeey said:


> You prayed that your husband wold cheat on you?


Lord no!!!!

I prayed for clarity, for happiness, to understand what it was I was doing wrong because I just didn't get it. Well, I do have all of those things now. But to get them, I had to separate from my ex. And I would've never separated had he not cheated.


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I can totally relate to the infidelity being a wake-up call. I had the blinders on and sung his praises. Looking back, I have no idea why I allowed myself to be satisfied with the crumbs tossed to me over the years. He was capable of being so awful and I internalized it for so long and felt like a sh!tty wife. Every time he would do something nice, show affection or make a temporary change I acted like he was the perfect husband and allowed myself to feel satisfied with that.

I remember thinking that if I was better to him, he'd be better to me and made so many excuses for him. I read or listened to so many self-help books and followed advice that would set the feminist movement back 100 years in order to please him. Even my counselor couldn't reach me when she tried to show me that I wasn't holding him responsible, got angry at things that would piss off a monk, or that it wasn't all of my burden. 

It was silly. Being cheated on sucked but it opened my eyes to how bad things were and had always been. I wouldn't of ever asked for the pain of his betrayal but I was so deep in fog and in love that he could do no wrong. I hate to say it, but it almost needed to happen for me to wake up and realize that I deserved better. Short of being hit or cheated on, I don't think I'd have snapped out of it and that's embarrassing for me to admit.

--------------------------
I meant to include this link to my story over the other one. I was so emotional at the time, I wrote two introductory posts. But when it comes to the lack of remorse.... yep, I've been there.

I snooped, discovered he was cheating and he's angry at me


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> I hate to say it, but it almost needed to happen for me to wake up and realize that I deserved better. Short of being hit or cheated on, I don't think I'd have snapped out of it and that's embarrassing for me to admit.


I'm not embarrassed to admit it at all. I wouldn't have left otherwise and I know it. I also sung my ex's praises to all who would listen. Had he not cheated... I'd still be living in a permanent nightmare. I'd still feel old, dumpy, unloved, disordered, crazy... I'd still be lied to, manipulated, ostracized, alienated, cheated on, etc etc etc. 

I remember one time I looked at a picture of me as a little baby. I wept and wept and wept. I felt so so sorry for that poor little baby, for where her choices had led her in life. She so did not deserve that. 

I stopped blaming myself because I realized I was victimized. He deceived me and so many other people... sometimes you really don't see it coming until it hits you right side up the head.


----------



## sharkeey (Apr 27, 2012)

SandyD said:


> Lord no!!!!
> 
> I prayed for clarity, for happiness, to understand what it was I was doing wrong because I just didn't get it.


Why not pray that he becomes a better husband?


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

sharkeey said:


> Why not pray that he becomes a better husband?


Because I thought he was a great husband and that I was the problem.


----------



## sharkeey (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm saying why not pray NOW that he becomes a better husband since you now know it's not your fault.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

How in the world am I ever gonna trust someone like that?

Do you think it's possible Sharkeey? Do you think change so profound is possible?

I wouldn't even know what to look for.


----------



## sharkeey (Apr 27, 2012)

No I don't think change like that is possible, but you said your prayers were answered the first time so I'm just giving you more prayer suggestions.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

I like how you think.

I hadn't thought of that.

Thank you.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Hi all... This is an update.

Well, I was doing ok despite the ex's shenanigans (he tried doing a surprise appearance at a new year's bash I was at, with my mother's blessing, that didn't work - then he hid his car and, while I was dropping my daughter off at my aunt's, he came running up to us crying and telling me how much "we" loved eachother"). Creepy is an understatement.

Now I'm not doing so good because he is basically trying to financially starve me. He is hiding assets and giving me the bare minimum as child support, and told me the money was only to buy my daughter food (and he said she doesn't each much at all, so the metaphorical pennies he gave me should suffice). I have no money as of today because I'm a freelancer, and I had too many expenses (including crazy expensive pregancy and std exams - which I asked to go dutch even though he gave me an std and I make less money) and not enough work these past two months. So I've had to start dipping into my retirement savings, which I really hate to do but have no choice.

I did tell him of my dire financial situation at the moment, which I hope is temporary, but he told me to ask my mom for money or use my personal savings. He said that since I want a divorce, I should deal with the consequences of that. He said he has nothing to do with how much I earn and it's not his job to support me. Then... listen to this... he asked whether I had liked the love letter he sent me. 

I can't even afford a godamn onion and he wants to know whether I liked his letter? 

Meanwhile, he's actually making quite a bit of money and doesn't have many expenses at all. I know. I have his internet banking password. He is pretending he is broke, but he's actually doing pretty good. He got a great severance package in the end of december and is on a roll with freelance jobs. He is technically unemployed now, but is still doing consultancy jobs that pay more than what he used to earn. 

This breaks my heart. It makes me so sad to be treated like this. I feel like a street bum asking for free handouts. It's humiliating. I cried so much last night. I never feel sorry for myself, but last night I did.

I don't want him to share his good fortune with me, I'm actually a very fair and modest person, I just need some help to cover basic (and I mean basic) expenses. He won't budge. 

So I've already consulted with a lawyer and am getting the paperwork ready to file. He said he isn't ready and that we should wait until the baby is born... I just can't even afford to wait that long, even if I wanted to.

The clincher was when he told me he could advance me an extra $"insert ridiculously low and offensive amount". He said I would have to sign a receipt and then he wouldn't pay child support next month.

So I did something bad.

I visited an online pharmacy and bought all my daughter's necessities to cover two whole months and charged it to his credit card. I also bought cat food and litter on his credit card. This is stuff I paid for by myself these last two months we've been separated. With money I didn't even have. Technically, I'll still owe for half these purchases, and that's fine. 

I almost had groceries delivered as well. I'm still pondering how crazy I want to go, though.

Thanks for listening guys.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Your H is following the 'desperate manipulator's script.'

He doesn't care about the welfare of his unborn child if the child's deprivation will bring you back into his control orbit.

Stay strong, please. Dip into retirement if you have to.

What are the laws like where you are in terms of your rights to his income?

He's trying to bring you to your knees. What a prize catch he is!


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

This is all just so cruel. I do intend to stay fair though, for our daughter's sake since we will have to co-parent and I really don't want to mess that up. I just couldn't deal with his callousness so I charged her necessities, which go way beyond a yogurt, some oatmeal and a pack of pampers, to his credit card. I think this is fair, although underhanded.

I have a right to 30% of his income (divided between two children) plus extraordinary expenses under the laws where we live. He is playing the unemplyment card, but he does have income.

I can't fathom my father ever doing something like this to my mother or us. It's unbelievable.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Remind me of your status with a lawyer. Are you getting advice on how to verify his income, reported or otherwise?


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Oh, and remember he wanted me to pay him back for the gas that was left in the car the day he left? All the while he was saying he wants us to be a family again. Without even apologizing. I was just supposed to take him back out of the goodness of my heart. 

He told me people would think it very noble of me to just forgive him.

I swear I feel like I'm getting this all wrong, that my pregnancy hormones are making me misunderstand our interactions. This is too insane to be real.


----------



## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

I'm not one of those people who thinks a spouse should divorce so they can get alimony.

But in your case, I think you should divorce so you can get alimony. Why haven't you filed yet if you don't mind me asking? Really sounds like you need the money and he's not stepping up voluntarily.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

No, I'm actually getting a public defense attorney after having consulted with another attorney who didn't specializa in Family Law. He was an old friend and didn't charge me, but didn't really answer all my questions. He advised me to try and work out agreements about visitation, child support and division of assets with my ex. that isn't going to happen, my ex told me he wasn't ready to talk about all that stuff. 

So I'll only be able to go in next Tuesday. Hopefully they'll be able to help me with that and everything else.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

I haven't filed yet because I have just been focusing on getting a much needed break from my former husband. 

I don't think I'll get alimony according to my country's laws, but my children do have a right to decent child support and I will ensure they have that. I earn less than he does but he's basically asking me to raise them by myself. It's manipulation, I know that... but come on...with your own kids?

Now I understand why some women deny visitation to fathers.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Oh, and like alot of other parents, I work triple shift. I take care of my daughter all day, the house, and work nights from home. She doesn't go to daycare or anything like that, so it's not like I have crazy expenses. But soon I'll have another little one, and I will need major outside help. It will get expensive.


----------



## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

My God, and please don't take offense, but that guy sounds like a Grade A douche.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

SandyD said:


> I swear I feel like I'm getting this all wrong, that my pregnancy hormones are making me misunderstand our interactions. This is too insane to be real.


There are hormones and then there are hormones.....

This is not how pregnancy hormones play out. You will have to take my word for it - I have long, long experience with this issue & have done scads of research.

It's actually a fairly common way for WH's to gaslight the wives they are cheating on. Statistically, the incidence of men cheating goes up during a W's pregnancy. The use of the 'hormone gambit' to gaslight is well-known.

There is another current poster on this site whose husband carried on a blatant EA (perhaps PA ?) throughout her pregnancy, all the while saying that her reaction was due to 'hormones.' She left him and after the baby was born, he admitted to the EA.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

SandyD said:


> He told me *people would think* it very noble of me to just forgive him.


This is key. Speak volumes about his psychological landscape. He's projecting his own dysfuncional ways into you. Of course, for him it's all about appearances and facade. It's how he operates 24/7, hence the manipulation and gaslighting which doesn't stop at you but friends even your mom. It's all about what people would think about him, he believes that's how you behave too. He believes you'd find overwhelmingly appealing to appear "noble" to the audience.


----------



## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

If you have access to his bank account, print off his bank statement to show to your lawyer as proof of his income, etc. Do it before he changes his password & you can no longer access it.


----------



## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

karole said:


> If you have access to his bank account, print off his bank statement to show to your lawyer as proof of his income, etc. Do it before he changes his password & you can no longer access it.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


Already did. Just in time... He changed his password today.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

He is really good at what he does Pity much of it is evil. If not evil, just so alien to normal people that he should consider living on a desert island, away from people like you, good vulnerable people he can crush or destroy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

The baby and cat items just got delivered. Yay! 

He called to say he left his "advance tip" at my mother's, along with a receipt so he doesn't have to pay next month's child support. I told him it was fine, he could keep it. I wish I could see the look on his face when he gets the credit card statement. 

I feel so incredibly evil, but now things are fair.


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I agree with Alt Dame, he is totally manipulating you. I can’t blame you for charging things to his credit card. Even if he doesn’t want to provide for you, he is obligted as a father to care for your children – born and unborn. If not legally but morally. Failing to do so when he is capable of it is unconscionable. My ex tried to make me sign a contract for money when I kicked him out I was pregnant and taking care of our older child. I couldn’t even afford cab fare if I went into labour. I told his parents and they put a stop to that real quick.

Your lawyer friend advised you to try and work things out in regards to child support, and visitation because it’s much cheaper. Your ex is being a d0uche canoe for not being amicable as it will cost you both more in the long run. 

It’s also not your hormones. Although being pregnant does make you more emotional, what you’re going through with your husband is emotional in and of itself. Anyone would be emotional dealing with something like this.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Hi Miss Taken... I know, he's lost his mind. 

He asked to talk today on the phone and I told him that he doesn't have what it takes to make this marriage work, he's simply uncapable. As far as the money thing, he told me he has a lot of bills to pay, including the iPad he bought me, so I should continue to use my savings. In other words, he is going to make me pay for the iPad and all the other luxuries he bought himself and others on christmas. Dear lord. He also told me I should stretch out the meager pennies he gave me to make ends meet.

I told him he had two months to do something, to prove how remorseful he was, and he did nothing. He just played games and continued to mistreat me. He told me, once again, that he was gonna do what it takes. It's laughable cause all he has to offer are words. And his word is worth less than nothing. I'm simply not interested anymore. 

I asked him why he changed all his passwords if he wanted ro rebuild trust, and he told me he felt violated and that he doesn't have my passwords, so why should I have his.

By the way, I told him all these things but it doesn't matter what he does from now on. We are done. I can't be with someone like this. And I know that, while he may do a few things just to win me back, his character won't change. He doesn't even understand what he's doing wrong, that's the scariest part. He has no internal moral compass, no real feelings, that's why he always needs other people to tell him what to do (and his parents love doing that for him). Left on his own, he just doesn't know what the right thing to do is, and he'll always do the most self-centered and hurtful thing.

I told him the divorce will happen this month, he freaked out and hung up on me. 

What is very clear to me now is that he wants to have a home and a family, and that I'm just a bothersome nuisance that is preventing him from having what he wants. So he is punishing me. He doesn't love me, he loves the life he had and how dare I do this to him.

By the way, i just realized he never told me or showed me the results of his last exam. He isn't flaunting it around for all to see like the first one.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

He also suggested we go to couple's therapy with his new therapist. Right, like I'm falling for that again. 

I am not going anywhere near a psychologist with him.

He is a manipulator, people just don't see it and buy his "poor me" stories. I doubt this woman is skilled enough to see through it. He has an excuse for everything.

There's a reason sociopaths never get better until they realize what they're doing and there's a payoff for them doing so. 

I told him to think of his daughter, I asked him whether he wanted her to marry someone like him someday. He told me no, he didn't want that to happen. But I know that, inside, he thinks he's just wonderful and that I'm to blame for everything. 

Can't make a blind person to see.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

What almost gets lost in some of this discussion is the level of betrayal he visited on you. We talk so much about his personality disorder, and this verbally overshadows the fact of his cheating with prostitutes (and other women, no?), as well as the fact that he gave you an STD while you are pregnant. The idea that a man like that can be 'loved by all' is a testament to the believability of his act.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Hello everyone, a few things have happened and I wanted to share with you. This will be long.

1. STBX had asked me to go to a counseling session with him and his individual therapist. Although skittish about the whole thing, I figured I had nothing to lose going once and could find out what he had told her. The session was actually fun because the therapist was a very energetic and fun lady, but we didn’t have a chance to go over anything in depth. She seemed to think he was essentially a good guy and we were a typical passive man/strong woman type of couple. Easy peasy. She called my husband out on several things I have been telling him for years and did not seem to think I was a monster, so I don’t think he lied to her. He seems to have told her every breech of trust that ever happened, and even opened up about his premature ejaculation. I told her our last therapist had fired us and she alluded to the therapist perhaps being incompetent or inexperienced. She has 27 years of experience, by the way. The therapist invited me to try it again as a last shot so I can sign divorce papers with a clear conscience, knowing I did all I could. I still don’t know wether it is a good idea to go to another session. Even if I don't go, my STBX will continue individual sessions with her.

2. Before the counseling session, STBX decided to be fair and pay me correct child support. Still tried to lie about how much he is going to earn for his next two freelance jobs, but I forwarded him an email he sent me last year detailing this information and he let me know (with tons of attitude) that he would send me the job PO.

3. His third test results came back positive for past chlamydia infection. He used a different exam methodology this time, I think the same as mine. He told me about it, but I had to ask him. He did not volunteer this information. 

4. He is being a good father and taking our daughter regularly (we switch days since he isn’t working at the moment). She is enjoying it immensely, which makes me so very happy. There is a single mother who lives in STBX’s building and our daughter loves playing with her child. My STBX told me this woman has been hitting on him and even told me some things she said, like to take off his wedding ring and enjoy life. He never told me anything like this before, and I know it was mostly to make me jealous, but his honesty was actually refreshing. I am not jealous, by the way. His life isn’t my business anymore.

5. Gave me his email passwords and I don’t think he deleted anything (I used the “recover deleted messages” feature and only junk mail came up). I read some sensitive emails his family sent him, stuff they specifically asked him not to share, as summarized below:

a) His mother urged him to NOT tell me about his positive test results for chlamydia and that they were going to stick with the negative results. From what I gathered, she is basically going around speaking to doctors and infectologists on his behalf to prove her son is innocent, despite the fact he admitted to paying for sex. I replied to her email from his account letting her know that she should not encourage her son to lie about test results, all results are to be shared with me since it pertains to our children and told her I was shocked by her request. She did not reply, but my STBX did and told her I was right, that this pertains to his family only. 
I asked him to grow up and take care of his medical issues by himself, which he did. His mother made return appointment for him in his hometown and was going to go for him to discuss the test results, but he told her not to go and that he would Skype/email the doctor himself.

b) As advised by TAM members, I emailed his family to expose everything he had done, including my positive test results accompanied by some strong words about his putting his family’s life at risk. They thought my only intent was to humiliate him. Among other things, they told him I was humiliating and punishing him JUST because he had the balls to be honest. No concern for me or our children, no disgust at what he’d done, I was just wrongly judged and villified. His mother told him he loses nothing in divorce, he only gains... their love, the love of his children (???), etc... 

c) His brother encouraged him to divorce or, otherwise, demand I accept certain conditions that include being more involved with their family (who don’t like me very much, if you haven’t noticed) since we have "isolated" ourselves from them. He told my husband that the people who really love him are their parents and that they were suffering because of all of this, especially because of my emails, and were very angry with me. My ex did defend me and reminded him of what he’d done (hooker+STD during pregnancy), told him I had the right to be furious. He also told them that, although they have always been against our marriage and will always encourage divorce, he loves me and wants to be with me. I had never seen him take a stand for me with his foo. On the contrary, he has always run to them whenever we fought over his lies, told them all our business, and used his mother as a confidant and marriage advisor. 

d) His brother’s long-term girlfriend also sided with the in laws and basically urged us to only send happy news instead of problems. She said the inlaws are facing serious medical issues (FIL has cataracts and MIL has a thyroid imbalance at the moment) and accused us of trying to kill them. She told us FIL even had to reschedule his cataract surgery because of all this mess. 

e) Brother-in-law asked him to come help out their parents since their father was going to undergo cataract surgery and he already had travel plans. All their family is local. He didn’t go.

6. STBX sent me a letter detaling what he is willing to do to save the marriage that included, basically, everything I ever wanted from him with regard to honesty, accountability and standing up to his family. I didn’t buy it in the least. To see how serious he was, I told him it would be good if he took a very long time out from his family-of-origin at this moment, with zero communication for months, to work on himself. I think this was a very bold and semi-abusive thing to ask of him, but he readily agreed and said he would have the therapist lead the process. He said he never rebelled in his teens and it was about time he did. 

7. My Aunt, who basically raised me, is now telling me to sit back and see what develops. She has been suffering this whole thing with me and has caught on to my STBX’s manipulations, but is now expressing that this may have been the kick he needed. She isn’t getting her hopes up, and isn’t telling me what to do, but advised me to wait it out a bit longer.

8. I feel nothing for him. No hate, no love... he’s just a guy. He seems to be doing ok, and I think this is mostly because we have resumed some contact. 

9. I am currently in limbo. Feel free to give me a huge reality check if you wish.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Oh, I just re-read Acabado's post about hoovering. My ex is clearly in hoover mode. Had forgotten it had a name.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

SandyD said:


> Oh, I just re-read Acabado's post about hoovering. My ex is clearly in hoover mode. Had forgotten it had a name.


Glad you caught that. Someone doesn't change that radically that quickly, especially a character like your H.

So, I assume you can withstand his pressure. The bit about his mother and the STD test is amazing. I'm a mother myself & understand maternal devotion, but she is a piece of work - and she raised him, so it fits somehow.

It also sounds like you are starting to find some support for your own 'reading' of your H and marriage & don't question yourself so much anymore. I've heard that when the realization dawns for the person being gaslighted that it is a real and often permanent awakening.

How's your pregnancy?


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Glad you caught that. Someone doesn't change that radically that quickly, especially a character like your H.
> 
> So, I assume you can withstand his pressure. The bit about his mother and the STD test is amazing. I'm a mother myself & understand maternal devotion, but she is a piece of work - and she raised him, so it fits somehow.
> 
> ...


Hey AlteDame... the pregnancy is fine, I'm definetely showing now at almost 4 months.

I'm having my doubts as to wether this is truly a matter of character or family values, hence my request for him to stop communicating with his foo at this time. He just seems devoid of true personality, I think I've said this before (he adopts other people's words and thoughts as his own; he needs to be told what to do or think for the most part; he has no needs of his own). I always thought this had to do with his upbringing and his family's enmeshment. 

I remember one time I heard him trying to have a difficult conversation with his mom on the phone (trying to say that they couldn't expect to have a good relationship with him if they were going to alienate me and our daughter). His mother cut him in the middle of the sentence, told him he was confused and should speak to someone, and ended the conversation with "is that all? I have to go now, bye". It was clear to me that he has his reality defined by his parents, anything I said or felt that conflicted with what his parents thought earned me a "crazy" stamp.

The first time he lied to me about another woman after we were married, supposedly to protect my feelings since his parents had told him I was pathologically jealous, I asked him to leave the house. I had him leave because he wouldn't apologize and kept trying to blame me for his lies until I couldn't take it anymore. He fled to his parents, as usual, and they told him he was a great husband and that he had done nothing wrong. Then they called a divorce lawyer and convinced him he should divorce me. We had been married 6 or 7 months. He was convinced by his parents that he was the victim, and he bought it. Not once did they encourage him to come home and apologize or speak to me. 

Anytime we have ever had a fight, they do take advantage of our vulnerable state to try to convince my husband to divorce, in subtle and not so subtle ways. This is very consistent. And, in a way, I don't blame them. They do believe I have a problem, and what enmeshed parent would want their child to be married to a "crazy" person who doesn't enmesh not even a little bit with the family? On the contrary, a person who sets boundaries.

Several incidents of this kind have peppered our relationship. 

So I really want to investigate this.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Oh, his parents are always sweet as pie to my face. Especially the mother, so her asking him to not share his STD exams with me really shocked me. I had no idea she was so underhanded... 

An important thing I remembered: she had the habit of opening our mail without asking, even bank statements, saying she thought it "could be something important" that she would have to immediately deal with. Then she would deliver the open envelopes to my husband very non-chalantly. Whatever was sent to her house, she would open. Even the wedding cards people sent to me were opened by her because it could be "something important". This horrified me but didn't faze my STBX in the least. He thought I was just being difficult.


----------



## Ever-Man (Jan 25, 2013)

SandyD said:


> No remorse... WTH is he doing then?
> I have been separated from my serial cheater husband (pregnant wife with std) for a little over a month but have not initiated divorce proceedings. No reconciliation is intended on my part.
> 
> I am also having a hard time getting over the fact that he pulls the wool over everyone's eyes with his personality. He seems like a shy, sensitive, vulnerable guy. He goes out of his way for people and become very likeable that way. He exudes trustworthiness and steadfastness. Excpet, he's none of those things.
> ...



I agree with elegirl, he has elements of a psychopath, it is that simple. You are looking for what are "feelings of empathy" from a person who may not be capable of them. Often psychopaths will perfect the appearance of empathy, but it is the "behaviors" that you need to watch. My psychopath x-wife turned out to be a masochist and in the end seemed to relish in the extreme suffering she caused, as if it gave her both POWER and FEELING, within her unfeeling and calculating world. 

I find a great test for psycho-pathology is to note whether the person seems to try to turn themselves into the victim and get sympathy for themselves, ignoring the destructions of their own actions.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think you're really on to something here with the toxic mother. This could explain a lot about his personality disorder - classic narcissism has many of the character traits that you describe in your husband, right down to not having his own personality because he is adopting the personality of a narcissistic parent.

Narcissism is a healthy personality type, though. It's when it's unhealthy, when it's disordered (NPD), that things can be impossible. And NPD and sociopathy go hand in hand often.

The thing is, if you were to test things about the FOO and get him away from them, you'd still have his entire upbringing to deal with. So, it doesn't sound hopeful to me. He is who he is and his family is toxic.

Since he doesn't really do much without having it imprinted by the family, who has been encouraging him to cheat on you?


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

Ever-Man said:


> I find a great test for psycho-pathology is to note whether the person seems to try to turn themselves into the victim and get sympathy for themselves, ignoring the destructions of their own actions.


Hi Ever-Man... Very true. This is what convinced me he had sociopathic tendencies... No apparent shame, just "poor me". 

In our conseling session, however, he did not do the poor me. He just bluntly told the therapist everything that happened. So I'm curious to find out what this is truly all about and if it's fixable on the long-term. He is the father of my children, I do want him to be a good role model for them.

But the marriage is prett much doomed, though. I don't think there is any salvation and I just have no feelings for him anymore.


----------



## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Since my marriage has ended, I have done alot of reflecting. Knowing what I know now about my ex's mother, his family dynamics and everything, I would have never married him. 

Reading what I read of your WHs family, I would run as fast as I could in the other direction if I was you. His behavior is too ingrained in him and his mother will support her son no matter what. He has never had to learn consequences. That equals a very selfish and entitled person.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I think you're really on to something here with the toxic mother. This could explain a lot about his personality disorder - classic narcissism has many of the character traits that you describe in your husband, right down to not having his own personality because he is adopting the personality of a narcissistic parent.
> 
> Narcissism is a healthy personality type, though. It's when it's unhealthy, when it's disordered (NPD), that things can be impossible. And NPD and sociopathy go hand in hand often.
> 
> ...


No one... that was his own doing. Just the other day he told me that 99% of men cheat (even though our entire relationship he told me he was the most loyal boyfriend in the world, even had his friends come tell me that). 

But you know what's really strange Alte? I don't seem to be hurting over that anymore. There is not a bone in me that hurts over that. That's why I think marriage counseling would be worthless. There is no marriage to save. I am hungry for insight into his behavior, though. 

I have his email passwords but I only checked them one time. I'm not even interested anymore.

His family, however, bring up a lot of hate in me. They have since the first time they convinced my then husband to divorce. I used to like them a lot and I thought they liked me so it was a huge shock.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> Since my marriage has ended, I have done alot of reflecting. Knowing what I know now about my ex's mother, his family dynamics and everything, I would have never married him.
> 
> Reading what I read of your WHs family, I would run as fast as I could in the other direction if I was you. His behavior is too ingrained in him and his mother will support her son no matter what. He has never had to learn consequences. That equals a very selfish and entitled person.


That's exactly what I told him. I told him he needed correction and consequences, not psychoanalyzing. He needed someone who was going to cut through his bull**** with razor-sharp scissors. He told me that person was me, that I was the only one who saw through him. He needed my help and bla bla bla. One of the reason he gave for my attending a counseling session with him was for me to give him feedback on the therapist because he wants to find someone who can really help him.

Ah, amazing what a few months apart will do. I can only imagine where another two months will have him... he'll probably promise to steal a couple of stars for me. I will not make this easy for him. He needs it.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

There are many things in the world that appear binary. For me, there were always people who were straightforward, what you see is what you get. And then there were people whose word you simply couldn't trust - you knew that they were talking cr*p about you behind your back because they were talking cr*p about other people to you behind other people's backs. I chose over the years to not have the latter type of person in my life where possible (sometimes you can't avoid it).

So, your in-laws are the second type & now you know it.

I would theorize that your feelings now are a result of epiphanies - you have your H's number; you have his family's number; you know the unvarnished truth, the reality of who you married. And it's not good. You don't want that reality for your future, so you feel some peace about it.

Knowledge is power if you have the confidence to use it.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

For what it's worth, I would suggest that it's possible that your H's newfound openness about his own problems is yet another manipulation. If he admits to his faults up front, he essentially preempts any criticism at a later point.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> For what it's worth, I would suggest that it's possible that your H's newfound openness about his own problems is yet another manipulation. If he admits to his faults up front, he essentially preempts any criticism at a later point.


Oh, it's not newfound, he seems to find it whenever I have my foot out the door. "I finally understand" and "Now I get it" are standard. It lasts for... oh... 8 hours at the most. I barely get to feel hopeful.

But he's never not spoken to his parents before. I'm really curious. For sure they will blame me and hate me even more... And, in a way, I kind of feel vindicated by that after all they've put me and our daughter through. Plus, he always does much better when he's not being fed their distorted notions of life.


----------



## SandyD (Nov 18, 2012)

What do you all think will happen during the course of therapy?


----------



## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Like your Aunt said, wait and see. That is if you can be bothered.


----------

