# I am dirt



## Jackdaniels (Aug 4, 2016)

I will go back to my honeymoon. After we got married and got to the room, she would not kiss me or touch me. She said she was tired and went to sleep. I finally got to touch my bride 3 months later. After that, it was nothing. She does not feel good, she is tired, she has a headache. So, I ended up sleeping on the couch for 3 years [alone]. Many times I would lay there and cry from being so lonely. But, everything and anything she wanted she got. I would tell her how beautiful she is. Buy her flowers and put them in her car. Give her baths. Tell her I loved her everyday. Compliment her on everything she did. Sadly, I did not get the same in return. Her family came first [Mom/Dad], then her friends and the neighbors. I would almost beg for a little attention, love or anything from her but it never came. I have been with her almost 20 years now and things are still the same. Could not leave because the "rare" one time we made love, she got pregnant. So, if I did leave, she gets the house and I would have to pay child support. So, I hung in there. The two kids are grown and I am still living alone where everyone else comes first and I am dirt. Oh, might I add, if I got hurt and needed to go to the hospital, I would have to take myself. She was busy. There is more, a lot more. Have been to therapists to help deal with this. I do not want to live like this anymore! I want to be loved, is this so wrong?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Dude, you got no one to blame here but yourself. DO SOMETHING about it. And having the attitude that you are dirt is REALLY helping I must say *rolleyes*

All you've done is make up a whole bunch of excuses and try to blame her for YOUR misery.


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## oskar (Aug 4, 2016)

You are still with her after all these terrible years, for exactly what reason?

The number one reason is FEAR.

I'm guessing you're afraid to leave. 

But think of it this way, it can't possibly get any worse.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

And what do the therapists say? I'm guessing they say you should bail out of there and that is what people here are saying. So what are you waiting for?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

File for divorce first thing tomorrow morning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

This story made me want to put a gun in my mouth.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Have you ever actually spoken to a lawyer about divorce? If you had left her early on, your financial hit would have been very small.

Your idea of divorce seems to be more a fantasy that you are using to entrap yourself.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Dude. The advice to divorce right now is not really the best. Or at least not by itself. Get thyself into therapy to find out why you let your whole life go by this way.


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## oskar (Aug 4, 2016)

Agree with above poster.

Divorce can wait. Much of this problem is self inflicted and won't go away with divorce until you figure yourself out. I mean, the obvious immediate problems will lesson but there's bigger problems here.


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## Jackdaniels (Aug 4, 2016)

You are right. I am crying right now because everything I have worked for and tried so hard for is gone! I do not know where I am going, but I have a suitcase ready and starting to pack. God this is hard!!


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## Jackdaniels (Aug 4, 2016)

I live in Maryland. She would have gotten everything. Talked to a lawyer. As soon as I walk out the door, it would have been "abandonment". I know MANY guys that have gone though it and lived in and on the streets while another man moved into their house.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jackdaniels said:


> I live in Maryland. She would have gotten everything. Talked to a lawyer. As soon as I walk out the door, it would have been "abandonment". I know MANY guys that have gone though it and lived in and on the streets while another man moved into their house.


So why would you abandon your home? You stay in your home and you file for divorce. A lot of couples live in the same home while the divorce is in progress. Then you negotiate who moves out, custody and time sharing with the child. 


And you talk to more than one attorney, do a lot of reading on divorce in MD, and search for books about divorce on some place like Amazon.


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## Jackdaniels (Aug 4, 2016)

Because I loved her and I thought things would change!! I honestly thought that she would love me. I know and I have heard it before from my friends to dump her. I did not want to lose everything that I worked so hard for. 

Below is a clip from my diary which goes back to 1997:

God, I hurt so much and do not know what to do. I will use an example of a little dog named “Spot”.
Little Spot loved his master very much. When ever he would see her, he would wag his tail and jump up and down in hopes for a little pat on the head or some attention to show him that he was loved.
But, all Spot would receive would be words saying “Spot, you are a bad dog! Don’t jump on me like that! I give you attention all the time.”
Day in and day out, no matter what Spot would do, he was always bad. All he wanted was a little attention and love, but was always alone and lonely.
More and more spot would do things to get some attention. He would bring [buy] her things [a house, new van, build a new kitchen and bathroom]. Spot waited to hear “good boy”, but the words never came. Those things that he did were not good enough.
Spot would even tell her how much he loved her and how beautiful and sexy she was, all the time. He would give her baths, buy her flowers and on and on and on. Again and again, Spot would try to get some scraps of attention, to no avail. Spot would watch as she would give love and attention to others, over and over again. Her family, her friends and neighbors which mad Spot very sad because they always came first and he would beg for a few scraps of attention. 
Night after night, Spot would be alone waiting for some love and affection, but it never came. Only those cold words on how bad he always was and how she [his master] ALWAYS does everything for him and shows him love all the time. Spot was confused as he never got those things!
After a while, it got to Spot and he would say to his master that he loved saying "you do not do this things!!". “OH YOU VERY BAD DOG!!”. How dare Spot do those things! He is bad, very, very bad! “Look everyone! See, Spot is a bad dog!”.
More and more those words would crawl into his mind. After a while, Spot believes that he is a very bad dog and does not deserve any love or affection. He is nothing but a bad, bad dog.
Many times, Spot thought about jumping in front of a car to end this constant pain in his heart, always feeling that he is bad, unwanted and unloved.
I am that dog. Feeling ugly, unwanted and craving for my wife’s love.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You need to see a doctor about anti depressant meds and a therapist. It sounds like you have been wallowing in self pity for years. It has to stop.

And yes I've been through the same thing and a lot worse. I know of what I speak.

You need to forget about your wife and wanting sex with her. Instead you need to take care of yourself and build your own life. You can start with while you are still married to her. What do you do for yourself? Do you have friends you spend time with and activates that you do?


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## Jackdaniels (Aug 4, 2016)

LOL!! I know the feeling!! Time to go, but do not where to go. Everything I worked for will be in my rear view mirror. At least I will be happy? Don't know. It is the only world I knew and now I have to walk away from it. Brother, it is going to be hard! All my tools, all my stuff, the house that I worked on and paid for,...........gone. It is hard but, I have to do it. Everyone is right. I should not have put up with this. Thanks! God bless.


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## Jackdaniels (Aug 4, 2016)

Yes, you are right. Everyone is telling me to bail. I was scared and do not know what to do or where to go. I am bailing. Don't know where I am going, have looked at Laos, Thailand, Cambodia, etc. Can't and will not live like this anymore. Thank you!


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Jackdaniels said:


> I will go back to my honeymoon. After we got married and got to the room, she would not kiss me or touch me. She said she was tired and went to sleep. I finally got to touch my bride 3 months later. After that, it was nothing. She does not feel good, she is tired, she has a headache. So, I ended up sleeping on the couch for 3 years [alone]. Many times I would lay there and cry from being so lonely. But, everything and anything she wanted she got. I would tell her how beautiful she is. Buy her flowers and put them in her car. Give her baths. Tell her I loved her everyday. Compliment her on everything she did. Sadly, I did not get the same in return. Her family came first [Mom/Dad], then her friends and the neighbors. I would almost beg for a little attention, love or anything from her but it never came. I have been with her almost 20 years now and things are still the same. Could not leave because the "rare" one time we made love, she got pregnant. So, if I did leave, she gets the house and I would have to pay child support. So, I hung in there. The two kids are grown and I am still living alone where everyone else comes first and I am dirt. Oh, might I add, if I got hurt and needed to go to the hospital, I would have to take myself. She was busy. There is more, a lot more. Have been to therapists to help deal with this. I do not want to live like this anymore! I want to be loved, is this so wrong?


Jack; You need to embark on a program of changing yourself, because even is you divorce her, you will likely end up in the same or similar situation with another woman.

First get yourself the Book by Dr. Glover call No More Mr. Nice Guy. It is about co-dependent men who live their life in hope of validation by a woman. It is about men who make covert contracts with their wives. They do things like buy flowers, run baths, that mean nothing to their women in the hopes that the woman will give them the love and validation they so desperately want. When it doesn't work they double down and just do more of the same effectively beating their head against a stone wall even harder with no results.

You need to end your codependence. You need to take responsibility for finding your own happiness. You need to do things that will make you feel better about yourself and help you regain your confidence.

I was in a sex starved marriage, not as bad as yours, but still bad enough. Good luck to you. You, whether you believe it or not are part of your problem. A big part of your problem. You need to fix yourself.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

WOW. This is self abuse.
You need to look after yourself man. 
Try reading NMMNG. I think that might help you get started.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jackdaniels said:


> LOL!! I know the feeling!! Time to go, but do not where to go. Everything I worked for will be in my rear view mirror. At least I will be happy? Don't know. It is the only world I knew and now I have to walk away from it. Brother, it is going to be hard! All my tools, all my stuff, the house that I worked on and paid for,...........gone. It is hard but, I have to do it. Everyone is right. I should not have put up with this. Thanks! God bless.


Something is very wrong here because this is not how it goes with divorce. I know people who divorced in MD. And things were divided. It was not just one person got it all. You need to talk to several attornies until you find one that will make sure that you get about 50% of all assets. I just don't buy what you are saying here. Nor should you buy it either.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jackdaniels said:


> Yes, you are right. Everyone is telling me to bail. I was scared and do not know what to do or where to go. I am bailing. Don't know where I am going, have looked at Laos, Thailand, Cambodia, etc. Can't and will not live like this anymore. Thank you!


Why would you go to Laos, Thailand, etc?


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## Dom11 (Aug 5, 2016)

Thailand and Laos are cheap to live and you can find a women to get laid very easily.. That's why..lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thebirdman (Apr 5, 2014)

Buddy, the only one who can fix this is YOU. Don't think of it as "bailing." Think of it as correcting a past error. It is never to late to start over but you will have to pull the trigger. It will be worth it.
Take "Young at Heart's" advice. I have a good friend who wrapped up his third marriage because he makes incredibly poor choices when it comes to relationships. He hasn't learned yet, but he can and so can you. It's nice to have that someone in your life but not to validate you. You have to learn how to do that for yourself.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

If this is for real, then this is the most depressing thread I've read here. You're worried about losing your tools? A freakn' house? You know they make millions of that crap, right? Just think of the next amazing house you get to buy, and the latest and greatest tools, cars, trucks, etc you'll get to buy. OMG, just like H said, I want to put a gun to my head after your pathetic story.

Who cares if you lose 50% of your crap, you can get buy more! Buddy, I lost over $200K in my divorce and I'm the happiest guy in the world now that I'm having sex with the most amazing girl ever. Not just the sex, but being with someone that loves you, wants you, etc. 

I'm only 35, so I'll recover. But damn, you wasted your prime years being miserable. For what? I bet your kid thinks you should divorce. Just wait until he knows you were so miserable because you wanted him to grow up with a mommy and daddy under the same roof. Pathetic. I hope your kid doesn't have issues like you.

Like others have said, go read NO MORE MR. NICE GUY. Here is the free PDF: https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

Read it tonight. It's an easy ready, a few hours is all it takes. Read it while laying on that sofa you call your bed. 

I was married for a long horrible 8 years. No sex at all for the last 5 years. I have two young kids. So I have an idea what you're going through. I read NO MORE MR NICE GUY and separated two weeks later. It woke me up. I hope it does the same for you.

I'm curious.. have you prayed to God/Allah/Buddha/Satan that he take her life in a car accident/illness? Have you thought of ways to get rid of her and not get caught? I did. Not a good way to live. You need to get yourself to a therapist, make some phone calls tomorrow. Keep posting in this thread, we'll help you through it!


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Why do you need to leaves seems to me your living alone for the most part, so put the house up for sell, and file for divorce. The only thing she will get is half.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Jackdaniels said:


> LOL!! I know the feeling!! Time to go, but do not where to go. Everything I worked for will be in my rear view mirror. At least I will be happy? Don't know. It is the only world I knew and now I have to walk away from it. Brother, it is going to be hard! All my tools, all my stuff, the house that I worked on and paid for,...........gone. It is hard but, I have to do it. Everyone is right. I should not have put up with this. Thanks! God bless.


This is ridiculous. Why would all that you worked for be gone? Why do you think she would take everything right down to your tools? That's not going to happen unless you give them to her. She cannot take everything from you.

Have you spoken to her about divorce? Has she told you she'd take everything? She can't do that any more than you can take everything for yourself. You split the assets and those things that are yours only, like tools, clothing, hobbies, etc. go with you.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

The only things worth having can fit in a hollowed out cantaloupe.

Same CC configuration as your "punkin" head.

To name a few things to pack in there>

1) Your Dignity Diploma......you have not earned that yet....but you will. This diploma will be awarded by the Male Enhancement Clause in the "You Essay Constitution". You will rewrite your own future and Freedom Rights. 
2) The fond memories that you remember of your children.
3) The good memories that you willfully heap onto [so as to] bury the bad ones.
4) The memory of filing and signing your divorce papers.
5) The hope that will fill your mind and heart when you get "out of range" of that "Static Generator" that is your soon-to-be Ex Wife.

You worry about material things when your soul hangs in the balance? WTF... !!!!!!!

You only need two things to survive....*health and employment.

*Physical health and Mental health. Your wife cannot give you these. These are your domain. Domain-ation driven by no other than thou.

You must move the play-arm of your life's record player out of the tick,tick,tick groove that it is in. Move it MANually to the next song.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Your life has not gone and you have not wasted your time. You made two children who will continue to bring you good things and you learned a great deal. The good news is that you are totally responsible for where you are now. 

You can turn around and get out any time you desire. This time with your eyes open which should not be difficult if you use what you learned over the last 20 yrs. See, it has not been a waste of time. 

There are many members of TAM who were married for 20 or more years, D and then go on to meet compatible partners. Maybe they will post and tell their stories. 

They faced the decision to D with the same concerns you have. I can understand why 20 years of stuff is difficult to sort out and contemplate losing. Reading their stories may get you over the hump. 

Perhaps if you think in concrete terms of what you will really lose. Do some ground work on what the distribution of assets would be. Look at what available housing will cost. Sale of the house and distribution of retirement accumulation should be considered. Consult a lawyer. 

You leave your old life and gain a new one. Not easy but doable. I have read many times that people who leave unhappy marriages are glad they did after a period of adjustment.


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## Jackdaniels (Aug 4, 2016)

Yes, you are right and so is everyone else who has commented. Being married to her, over the years, she has done a number on my mind and self worth. Day after day, you start believing it yourself, which sadly I did. I truly believed that I was a bad person. Nothing I did was right, nothing I did was good enough. I kept a diary and wrote down my feelings and yes, it was one pity party after another while writing in it. It was my way of dealing with things. Was it the right way? No, but it was all I knew and could do at the time.
About 3 years ago, I was on medication but I did not like it. I was in la-la land talking to the walls, so I stopped. 
In a nutshell - My biggest fear was everything I worked for and wanted, would be gone. To just give it all up was tearing my heart out.
Did not know where to go, how to pay for the house and still afford a place to live, etc.. Plus, the divorce would be ugly. I know her and she would say everything and anything to make me look like a horrible monster. It would be how wonderful she has been to me and turn on those fake tears. She is a very manipulative person and had control over me for too long. I am moving on....just trying to figure out where to go and start over. Thank you and God bless


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Well, like someone said, if this is for real.....


But lets say so. Then I warn you your thinking is really flawed because you led a life of self inducted misery for so long. Be prepared for big changes in your mind. Better take small steps to realize what you have done to yourself.

Listen to other people to advise you, accept the possibility they see things better than yourself, try out their advice. Learn to learn to better yourself in the coming years. Read on these forums to inform yourself via likewise cases.

Good luck!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jackdaniels said:


> Yes, you are right and so is everyone else who has commented. Being married to her, over the years, she has done a number on my mind and self worth. Day after day, you start believing it yourself, which sadly I did. I truly believed that I was a bad person. Nothing I did was right, nothing I did was good enough. I kept a diary and wrote down my feelings and yes, it was one pity party after another while writing in it. It was my way of dealing with things. Was it the right way? No, but it was all I knew and could do at the time.
> About 3 years ago, I was on medication but I did not like it. I was in la-la land talking to the walls, so I stopped.
> In a nutshell - My biggest fear was everything I worked for and wanted, would be gone. To just give it all up was tearing my heart out.
> Did not know where to go, how to pay for the house and still afford a place to live, etc.. Plus, the divorce would be ugly. I know her and she would say everything and anything to make me look like a horrible monster. It would be how wonderful she has been to me and turn on those fake tears. She is a very manipulative person and had control over me for too long. I am moving on....just trying to figure out where to go and start over. Thank you and God bless


You are so far stuck in victim mode that you cannot see the sun. I'm sorry but this is ridiculous.

Who cares if she bad mouths you. The more she does that, the more it makes her look bad. When it comes to a divorces, the courts don't care, the attorneys don't care. They will just look at her as a vindictive woman. Anyone who is your friend will not care either. 

She can only manipulate you if you allow it, if you play along with her.

SO STOP IT NOW.

You will not lose everything. What you expect as an outcome is just ridiculous it's so out of whack with reality. It's almost like you are looking for an excuse to run off to some placy like Laos and abandon your child and all responsibility.

You should have left her after the honeymoon. But here you are 20 years later, so start making your plan to leave. And don't do something so stupid as packing a bag and walking out (abandonment) with no plan in place. Geez

So lets get started on your plan to leave and to fix yourself. Let's do an inventory of what you do for yourself. Could you share with us the things that you do for yourself?

Do you work out?
Do you have friends who you do things with?
What sorts of activities do you do for yourself?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

@Jackdaniels it sounds like your STBX may have a personality disorder, just from the description of her effect on you. 
People with these disorders are masters at making their target feel responsible for the ills of the universe along with making them feel small. 

Google PD, especially borderline personality disorder. The abrupt change after the marriage sounds like a BPD move. The reason you need to study up on what you have been dealing with is so that you realize it's really not you. 

If she seems to fit into the characteristics of one of the PD, you will recognize her script and anticipate her moves. That will strengthen your resolve to move on.. 

In terms of loss of assets, get legal advice before you approach her. Research the rules on the distribution of all debt. Guard against unwarranted spending on credit cards or cash grabs. Determine how moving out will effect your legal position and ability to get your stuff. 

Plan first, then act.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

*^^^^This.* Jack, please consider what @*Catherine* is suggesting. If you would like to read about BPD traits, I suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings any bells, I would be glad to join Catherine and the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Jack.


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## Jackdaniels (Aug 4, 2016)

To get as far away as possible. Plus the cost of living is cheaper.


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## Jackdaniels (Aug 4, 2016)

OMG! She has MANY of those traits!


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## Jackdaniels (Aug 4, 2016)

Thank you!!! Much appreciated. Seeing a lawyer next week.


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## Jackdaniels (Aug 4, 2016)

Thank you Young at heart! Your words touched my heart and they are so true. After this, I am really gun shy of women. So, it is going to be a very long time before I open my heart again.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Jackdaniels said:


> OMG! She has MANY of those traits!


In that case, Jack, I suggest you read the book *Splitting: Protecting yourself While Divorcing a Borderline or a Narcissist* by William A. Eddy.


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## Jackdaniels (Aug 4, 2016)

•	2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"
•	4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude and a double standard;
•	6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;
•	10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;
•	18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she often "rewrites history" because she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Jack, you report that only 5 of the 18 BPD warning signs sound very familiar to you. Moreover, the ones you exclude include those behaviors indicating a lack of impulse control and a strong fear of abandonment. Moreover, you identify no behaviors indicating emotional instability (which is what items #5 and #15 on the list represent). 

You therefore seem to be describing a woman who is very stable, i.e., who consistently treated you lovingly before the marriage but switched to consistently treating you badly after the wedding day. If so, you are describing behaviors much closer to narcissism traits than to BPD traits. Whereas BPDers are emotionally unstable and have a great fear of abandonment, narcissists generally are very stable folks.


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## kingsman (Aug 6, 2016)

You don't know yourself yet. You haven't figured it out yet.

You will, for your sake sooner rather than later.


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## Jackdaniels (Aug 4, 2016)

My daughter pointed out this item, called Gaslighting or gas-lighting is a form of psychological abuse in which a victim is manipulated into doubting their own memory, perception, and sanity. Instances may range from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, up to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim.

The term owes its origin to the 1938 play Gas Light and has been used in clinical and research literature.


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## kingsman (Aug 6, 2016)

That sounds like an essay lol


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I'm curious, aside from no sex, what is your relationship like? Is there any normalcy at all? Are you friends? Do you do any activities together? It seems like you got off to an awkward start the moment you were married.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Jackdaniels said:


> My daughter pointed out this item, called Gaslighting.... The term owes its origin to the 1938 play Gas Light and has been used in clinical and research literature.


Yes, that term became widely known when the play was made into the classic 1944 movie "Gaslight." In the film, a husband (Charles Boyer) tries to drive his new bride (Ingrid Bergman) crazy so as to get her institutionalized, allowing him to run off with her family jewels. One of his many tricks is to turn the home's gas lights down a tiny bit every day -- all the while claiming that he is able to see and read just fine.

Actually, the vast majority of the crazy making behavior of BPDers is not intended to make you feel crazy. Rather, it is the result of their subconscious minds protecting their fragile egos by projecting all their mistakes, painful feelings, and shortcomings onto their spouses. 

The beauty of projection -- and the reason that BPDers rely on it so heavily -- is that it occurs entirely at the subconscious level, allowing the BPDers to be adamantly convinced the projections are true. Hence, unlike lies (which BPDers will do when trapped), the projections are entirely guilt free -- an important attribute to folks who are filled with so much self loathing that guilt is a very painful experience.

I mention all of this to explain why "gaslighting" is characteristic of narcissistic and sociopathic behaviors, not BPD. Whereas narcissists and sociopaths will try to deceive and manipulate their spouses, BPDers typically believe the outrageous allegations coming out of their mouths. And, a week later when they are claiming the exact opposite, they likely will believe that nonsense too.


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## Jackdaniels (Aug 4, 2016)

LOL!! Yes, it is. It is my fault. I let it go on and on and on and on. Go ahead and kick me in the ash, because I deserve it. After talking to everyone about this, I feel so stupid for living like this years on end. I wish I would have talked to everyone on this site years ago!!
I did not know it existed. I looked at "married and Lonely", etc. Just recently found this forum and I am so glad that I did!


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Start working on yourself immediately. Drink water only, eat healthy 95% of the time. Go to the gym 4x a week. New clothes, a good haircut. When was the last time you had a physical? If it's been a while, make an appointment on Monday. Find a good therapist and go 1x a week for a while. Time to make yourself a priority.

Start stashing cash. Take a $40-100 in cash each time you go to the store. If you can get a couple thousand bucks hidden in your work desk, it will help. Every man needs a stash, even a couple for redundancy. If you have any small assets that are worth $500+, give them to a family member.


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## Jackdaniels (Aug 4, 2016)

My daughter thinks her mom needs help and so do I. But there is no way for her [wife] to see the light. As my daughter said "she is perfect, everyone is wrong." My wife will say things that she did, but did not do! You have no idea. 
I talked to my daughter tonight about it and she agrees because she has seen it herself.
In any case, I am talking to a lawyer next week. 
Everyone on this forum has been a blessing! I wish I would have found this years ago!!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Plan carefully Jack. I don't know about sharing so much with your daughter though.


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## kingsman (Aug 6, 2016)

It's good that you found this place and are accepting the advice but I wonder there's no one who has told you this such as friends or relatives that have seen what you've been going through for so many years?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Jackdaniels said:


> LOL!! I know the feeling!! Time to go, but do not where to go. Everything I worked for will be in my rear view mirror. At least I will be happy? Don't know. It is the only world I knew and now I have to walk away from it. Brother, it is going to be hard! All my tools, all my stuff, the house that I worked on and paid for,...........gone. It is hard but, I have to do it. Everyone is right. I should not have put up with this. Thanks! God bless.


Stop. You are not helping yourself. Get into therapy, and get a lawyer. You are your own worst enemy. There is no reason for you to loose everything.


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## babsbabs7171 (Aug 4, 2016)

leave................


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

Jackdaniels said:


> I live in Maryland. She would have gotten everything. Talked to a lawyer. As soon as I walk out the door, it would have been "abandonment". I know MANY guys that have gone though it and lived in and on the streets while another man moved into their house.


Dude... You are playing the ultimate victim here. You do not know "many men living on the streets" while another man moves into their house. Not buying that story, because you are just exaggerating and imaging the worst case scenario so that you can justify not making a move.

But the others are right - work on you. You are very weak. You need to get stronger mentally and emotionally. Forget your wife - work on you. And take back your home! Sleep in your bed, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

Uptown said:


> In that case, Jack, I suggest you read the book *Splitting: Protecting yourself While Divorcing a Borderline or a Narcissist* by William A. Eddy.


Please stop with trying to diagnose a person you never met with a disorder. The truth is hat HE stayed for 20 years. He let this happen. Now, is she 50/50 to blame? Abso-frigging-lutely. But who cares what she is! He needs to fix himself. Anything else and he's just wasting his time and his life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Begin again said:


> Please stop with trying to diagnose a person you never met with a disorder.


BeginAgain, you are confusing "spotting symptoms" with "making a diagnosis." There is a world of difference between those two actions. Nobody on the planet can do a real diagnosis of NPD, BPD or any other PD. That would require professionals to identify its cause, which is yet unknown and unproven. All discussions of BPD symptoms, then, are simply discussions about behavioral symptoms, not diagnosis -- i.e., not in the way the term "diagnosis" is used in every medical field.

Importantly, you don't go to a medical doctor to be told what symptoms you have. Instead, YOU tell the doctor all about your symptoms. And, when you go to an auto repair shop, you don't go to be told about your car's symptoms. Rather, YOU tell the repairman what problems the car is exhibiting and he diagnoses the problems so as to tell you the _cause_ of those symptoms. 

Hence, whereas _diagnosing a cause_ is the province of professionals, _describing and identifying symptoms_ is the province of laymen (i.e., the client seeking help). Indeed, when a patient is unable to identify disease symptoms, that disease is said to be "asymptomatic," i.e., "without symptoms." 

By definition, then, symptoms are traits that laymen are able to spot. This is why hundreds of mental institutions and hospitals describe the symptoms for NPD and BPD on their public websites. They know that, when laymen are able to spot these symptoms, they are far more likely to seek treatment -- and to do so much sooner.

Of course, I cannot know what behavioral symptoms are being exhibited by Jack's W because I've never even met the woman. I nonetheless am confident that Jack -- after having lived with her for nearly 20 years -- is capable of spotting any NPD or BPD traits that occur when he learns what symptoms are on the list. There is nothing subtle about behavioral traits such as verbal abuse, strong sense of entitlement, lack of empathy, and always being "correct."


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

Uptown said:


> Nobody on the planet can do a real diagnosis of NPD, BPD or any other PD. That would require professionals to identify its cause, which is yet unknown and unproven.


So I guess according to your logic no one can diagnose aspergers, or autism, or multiple schlerosis, or rheumatoid arthritis, or most cancers, or a boatload of other medical conditions because they don't know the cause.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

estes said:


> So I guess according to your logic no one can diagnose aspergers, or autism, or multiple schlerosis, or rheumatoid arthritis, or most cancers, or a boatload of other medical conditions because they don't know the cause.


In the medical sciences, there are still some diseases that cannot be diagnosed because the underlying cause is unknown. Until the middle of the last century, that was true for nearly all diseases. Hence, up until that time, "diagnosis" in the medical fields meant an identification of symptoms. Not knowing what the underlying cause was, the doctors were unable to cure the disease. Instead, they simply treated the symptoms (e.g., giving pain pills to treat body aches).

A major problem with that symptom-based approach to diagnosis is that the same set of symptoms can be caused by two dozen different diseases. The medical profession therefore largely abandoned that approach in the middle of the last century. Scientific advances permitted them to use diagnostic testing (e.g., blood testing and imaging slides) to identify the actual disease. 

Because symptoms alone are such an unreliable and dangerous way to identify most diseases, doctors now primarily use symptoms (obtained from the patients) to narrow down the number of diagnostic tests that are ordered. It is the diagnostic tests that are now relied on to identify the disease -- except for those diseases that cannot yet be identified.

Like the medical doctors, psychologists tried to largely abandon the symptoms approach to diagnosing in the middle of the last century. Indeed, they tried to do exactly that for several decades -- i.e., tried to identify the underlying causes of behavioral symptoms so as to explain why some children develop mental disorders but most do not. 

Sadly, the result was an unmitigated disaster. It was so bad that a client seeing three different psychologists likely would be given three different diagnoses. By the mid-1970s, the field of psychology had become such a joke to the scientific community that the  American  Psychiatric Association (APA) members decided to abandon their futile efforts to diagnose mental disorders. Specifically, in 1980 the APA stopped trying to identify the _causes _of the behavioral symptoms. Instead, it adopted a new approach (DSM-III) in which it identifies only the _symptoms_ themselves. 

This sad state of "diagnosis" is no secret inside or outside the psychiatric community. Dr. Thomas Insel -- the psychiatrist who was Director of NIMH (National Institute of Mental Health) from 2002 until 2015 -- publicly stated last year that, 

> Patients with mental disorders deserve better.... While DSM has been described as a “Bible” for the field, it is, at best, a dictionary, creating a set of labels and defining each. The strength of each of the editions of DSM has been “reliability” – each edition has ensured that clinicians use the same terms in the same ways. The weakness is its lack of validity. Unlike our definitions of ischemic heart disease, lymphoma, or AIDS, the DSM diagnoses are based on a consensus about clusters of clinical symptoms, not any objective laboratory measure. In the rest of medicine, this would be equivalent to creating diagnostic systems based on the nature of chest pain or the quality of fever. Indeed, symptom-based diagnosis, once common in other areas of medicine, has been largely replaced in the past half century as we have understood that symptoms alone rarely indicate the best choice of treatment. [See NIMH Rejecting DSM5 as Basis for Research.]


Accordingly, NIMH decided last year to re-orient its research funding away from DSM categories. Instead, it will be supporting research projects that look across current categories – or sub-divide current categories. This is a significant change because NIMH spends more on mental health research than any other organization in the world.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The fact is that no one here can diagnose the OP's spouse.

None of us have the training. And she's not here to talk to. 

We are talking with the OP, not his spouse. No one, not even a trained doctor/psychiatrist can diagnose a person based on the words of someone else.

Giving some info is fine. But it has to stop there.

Also, please stop the thread jack.


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> The fact is that no one here can diagnose the OP's spouse.
> 
> None of us have the training. And she's not here to talk to.
> 
> ...


Thanks. My point is that if the OP spends his time trying to analyze his wife, he won't be focusing his attention where he can make an impact, and that is on his behaviors, his responses, his choices.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

As difficult as it may be, stop talking to your daughter about your wife, and the details of your plans. Continuing to fill her in on the details will backfire on you. Let your daughter have her own relationship with her mother, even if your wife, her mother is BPD. Your daughter can do her own research, and get therapy for the pain her mother has caused.

Speak with a lawyer in your state this week. You might be able to get a free consultation, or at least one for a couple of hundred daughters. Knowledge is power, and it will dispel any false ideas you have about the financial and material results from a divorce.

You will not lose more than 1/2 of all you own, you will not lose it all. Is your sanity and happiness worth that? If you are the primary breadwinner, you will continue to be able to advance in your career, thus increasing your income, long after your last alimony payment to your wife...if you have to pay alimony. Are your children adults? If so, you won't be paying child support.

Why did you choose to remain in the receiving abuse / victim role for so long? You may need to address that in your own counseling sessions, so you don't get yourself in a repeat relationship.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Araucaria said:


> As difficult as it may be, stop talking to your daughter about your wife, and the details of your plans. Continuing to fill her in on the details will backfire on you. Let your daughter have her own relationship with her mother, even if your wife, her mother is BPD. Your daughter can do her own research, and get therapy for the pain her mother has caused.
> 
> Speak with a lawyer in your state this week. You might be able to get a free consultation, or at least one for a couple of hundred daughters. Knowledge is power, and it will dispel any false ideas you have about the financial and material results from a divorce.
> 
> ...


This thread is just about a year old, and the OP hadn't logged in in just under a year...


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> This thread is just about a year old, and the OP hadn't logged in in just under a year...


Oops...didn't notice those details. I can't delete my post, because you have quoted it.


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## KevinZX (Jul 1, 2017)

Get the hell out of that marriage, it is painful to read your post, never mind live it, i would be off long ago, you must respect yourself more, start packing.

Love and Peace always

KevnZX


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> This thread is just about a year old, and the OP hadn't logged in in just under a year...





jivany said:


> My God...are you sure you're not ........


Hate to tell you this, but see my post above.


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## Works (Apr 3, 2016)

I hope this guy is doing well these days.


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