# Complex Circumstances



## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

First off, my therapist likes to say there is no Hallmark card or guide for my situation.

Truth is I probably should just separate from my wife, but that is working out to be harder than it should be.

So, here's the deal in as short a story as I can put it.

I'm 42 and my wife is 39. We have been married 12 years, and we do not have children of our own because my wife was diagnosed with severe kidney disease during our 4th year of marriage. We tried to adopt kids and to that end we became foster adopt parents in 2007 for a couple of months. My wife couldn't handle it. She had a mental breakdown and bit one of the kids in an irrational fit of frustration and rage. The kids we were trying to adopt were taken away, she was arrested and we were blacklisted from all adoptive avenues.

Thankfully she was no-billed by a grand jury for the felony injury to a child, but our relationship was broken and I was so shell shocked I shut down for several years and just survived. We stayed married as I helped her with all the legal fall out and her new diagnosis of Bi Polar Type 2 disorder.

To add to the complexity, after the arrest, my wife started new job and made a friend with a female co-worker and we all became friends with her and her family. The co-worker was in a very poor marriage and about a year ago while my wife was on a bad combination of drugs to treat her condition she convinced myself and the friend to participate in a threesome.

My wife has various reasons why she pushed it from she wanted to ignite our failing sex life, she didn't want to work on her sex drive and brought in the friend, she wanted the friend to experience the love/compassion her husband didn't give, and she was just crazy. I fought the idea as bad for several months, but my own depression and lack of sex from my wife eventually wore me down and when we finally had sex (not really in a threesome but me doing each one and the other watching) it was pretty kinky and awesome.

However, it didn't go so well and the threesome didn't happen again.... but the friend and I wound up having a short lived affair that neither of us felt great about and the friend and I cooled the affair while she got the nerve to divorce her husband.

This spring my wife started stalking our old friend and she contacted me to talk about her behavior. Well things weren't truly cooled off between us, because she made an overt sexual pass at me one day. Though we didn't have sex, it didn't feel right to me. Come to find out she had a boyfriend that she found right after she filed for divorce, and though she came on to me, she didn't want to mess up the thing with her new boyfriend.

I was getting really anxious about being around her....I know now it was because I was horribly unhappy at home, I had a deep unresolved resentment for my wife over the loss of the kids, and I felt manipulated for being set up for an affair of her design, that I couldn't have then, and especially not now.

I've been trying to work it out with my wife for a few months now, but she is focusing on the affair I had as her place of hurting to heal from. Though, at times when we talk about it she seems to indicate that the affair could have grown and kept going if myself and her friend had just kept her in the loop and in control of our actions.

I've done a lot of work with my counselor on the layers and layers of relationship hurt and issues, and I've done some weird coping stuff like looking up and chatting up a divorced lover from before I was married. I've cut off the friend I had the actual physical affair with that my wife orchestrated, but that has been hard. Part of me wants to hook up with my old lover just to have an actual affair of my own design.

I'm not really working that hard on the old lover angle because the wife and I are in this euphoria sexual state because of all the tension, which is awesome. However, after several weeks that is starting to crack and the sex is still hot, but tapering off.

I'm coming to realize that the disappointment, hurt and problems in our past that I am finally dealing with may be too large and what should have happened almost 5 years ago is about to happen now.

I have yet to find a book or any advice where the affair was started and orchestrated by the wife. Now she is trying to act like the hurt spouse.

Just looking for some advice because several months of therapy and lots of relaxation and stress relief work still leaves me obsessing about all these problems.


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## freckleface (Jul 10, 2012)

Why are you working on the marriage? You said a lot about what happened - but not why you want to work it out with the wife. Is it your commitment?

You also seem to be blame-shifting the affair from yourself to your wife. Yes, your wife arranged a threesome with the woman and badgered you into it. That is on your wife. What happened after that is on you and the OW. You will have to accept that at some point, because that's the reality of the situation.

Your wife has a right to be upset that you took things behind her back, and you also have to accept that.

But the most important thing out of all of this at the end is: What is it that you want? Why are you in MC now? Your post sounds like you are done with your wife but don't know how to cut ties.

If you do not love her or want to be with her, you should let her go.


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## RDL (Feb 10, 2012)

Hello,

It is highly likely that the problems you are focusing on have to do with her mental state. 

With her diagnosis of being bi-polar you can expect powerful and varied emotional impulses. She acts on these impulses and the result over time can be confusing. She loves and hates at times and everything in between. 

It was under an emotional impulse that she pushed for the threesome and given the major issues in your relationship became highly jealous of it. Simply put she pushed for it at the time, she had no idea what she was getting into and now she is indeed hurt and jealous.

Now as you mentioned the issues within your relationship are complex, they have been going on for a long time and at great intensity. Both positive and negative. Partly that is the reason you are still in the relationship. The positive parts.

Given the nature of the issues you are facing the place for advice would be a specialist. Here on the forum you can find solace and support.


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

OK, lets flesh this out a little bit.

I guess I am still with my wife because of my commitment and the positives (which have been decreasing for years). My wife's Bi Polarism was not diagnosed until late 2007 and we were married in 2000. My wife had rages in our first year of marriage (including brandishing a kitchen knife at me), and exhibited mild forms of what I now understand is her Bi Polarism. There was a lot of emotional bonding, support, social interaction as a couple, family connections and frankly great and desirous sex.

She was diagnosed as having Kidney disease in 2004 as a result of tests to figure out why we were not conceiving as we tried for children. There were several surgeries to prepare her for dialysis (which she has yet to need) and I slipped into the supporting spouse role.

I was content to properly grieve not having kids and support my wife in her very serious illness, but my wife felt compelled (the bi polarism again) to push to adopt kids. The drive and determination and euphoria of getting the kids evaporated and she changed within one week. From wanting to be a stay at home mom, to wanting to work, to obsessively cleaning the house, but letting me do bath times and reading to the kids. Though I was slow to want them because of my grieving not having my own, once I had them I was doing well with them and bonding with them...and she was not. We had them for three months before she cracked.

I stayed after the kids were taken away because, well, she was sick again, with a new diagnosis. And due to the arrest, her professional license was put on probation.

I realize that the threesome was the result of her podiatrist prescribing a medicine for neuropathy in her feet that amplified the three psychotropics she was already on. She failed to tell her psychiatrist and counselors about the new drugs she was taking and the way she was feeling sexually. This went on for almost 9 months. Before, during and after the threesome/affair.

I cut off the affair this spring when the friend made the pass at me. It freaked me out. I didn't want it and couldn't have it. So it isn't that simple as I had an affair.

The deal is, and I have expressed this in marriage counseling is that I don't want to put up with another Bi Polar emotional cycle like the ones I have already been through and I don't want to put up with my wife not being honest with her therapists and psychiatrists and taking care of her own treatment.

to tell you how messed up all this is, my wife has asked me to leave twice in the last two weeks and as I pack a few things and talk to her about some financial logistics, she says, "Don't Leave"

I'm trying to figure out why I'm staying, because mentally I'm ready to go....and I thought I was comfortable with staying, but I'm having a hard time holding on to the peace I had about that side of the "whatever the day brings" coin.


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

FreedomCorp said:


> Hello,
> 
> It is highly likely that the problems you are focusing on have to do with her mental state.
> 
> ...


I guess finding a specialist that can help me is my issue more than anything. Which makes me wonder how you find these kind of people that deal with stuff like this.

I feel our marriage counselor is not quite up to speed with all of the issues in play here and may not be equipped to deal with the Bi Polar component. In our first session she suggested we read "His Needs Her Needs" and when I left the session I just about laughed. I had to schedule a solo appointment with her to go over the history and the two intensive psychologist evaluations of my wife. She still seems to be working the standard "affair resolution" model of therapy in many cases.

My personal counselor is a bit better because he has worked with me through most of this other stuff, but he no longer lives in my town and we do it via telephone now. It works, and I am feeling better about myself and what I have done, but that doesn't deal with the relationship.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Run, do not walk to read this book. Even if you don't divorce you will gain so much. 

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder (Paperback)
Randi Kreger, Bill Eddy, William A. Eddy
*(18)
Also get yourself to bpdcentral. 
Sometimes bipolar and borderline overlap. She sounds borderline to me. Either way this things are very useful regardless of the diagnosis of the year that the clinicians slap on her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> Run, do not walk to read this book. Even if you don't divorce you will gain so much.
> 
> Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder (Paperback)
> Randi Kreger, Bill Eddy, William A. Eddy
> ...


Thanks, I'll see if my bookstore has it at lunch.

I have been getting some good support from my cousin and his wife over all of this. My cousin's wife has a sister that is Bi Polar and their adoptive daughter has RAD and is starting to exhibit Bi Polar tendencies.

My wife's diagnosis of the year is Bi Polar II. My counselor suggested BPD, so who knows. She has responded well to a combination of Lamictil, Wellbutrin and LexaPro. That plus intensive job counseling has kept her in her job for almost 5 years. (previous to that she went through 4~5 jobs per year.. from Registered Nurse to Minimum Wage clerk at Card shop and back again). The downside is she is lethargic in the relationship and indifferent.

The threesome happened when she added a pretty big dose of Neurontin to her existing drug therapy.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Too many meds affecting the mind creating chemicalimbalances and abnormalities for the brain to function, I'm sure even a scan could show that. These drugs are killers, literally. All the massacres from littleton colorado, santee california, red lake, etc started with anti depressents, leading these people to be on psychotropic drugs. Why do people always go to doctors seeking a pill for the solution, when the problem lies in their lifestyles. These people get put into prescriptions, innocently enough as they are, they are ignorant because they do not use the power of todays easily obtainable knowledge and expect the doctor to know everything and solve everything. What do we want next? Pills to wake us up at 6 am, pills for breakfast, pills for headaches, then pills for the ulcers that all thesep ills cause, then a pill to solve ED which was caused by all the stress these other pills caused. 
For your solution, I believe you need a path of naturopathy. Leave the meds and doctors, leave these mind affecting drugs. It is like trying to cure alcoholism with a pill three times a day, and you take that pill with a shot of vodka. Its like curing cancer with a pill while you are still eating all the cancer inducing foods and chemicals(artificial flavors).


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Complex said:


> Thanks, I'll see if my bookstore has it at lunch.
> 
> I have been getting some good support from my cousin and his wife over all of this. My cousin's wife has a sister that is Bi Polar and their adoptive daughter has RAD and is starting to exhibit Bi Polar tendencies.
> 
> ...


Its good that you are there to support your wife through this but you are not helping by letting her test and take every pill for bi polarity. This seems to be a problem. These pharmaceutical companies put profits before safety. Doctors hand out prescriptions like candy. It is how doctors are trained, to have faith in the greatmedical research we have and the availability of these powerful drugs. No.

Neurontin is a more powerful version of lyrica, the FDA approved them even though it had no idea what they did. The FDA is a joke, does that kill my credibility probably but I do not care, these words aren't enough to remove a practicing license. Neurontin was for originally epilepsy (which can be controlled through diet, already been tested and proven with EMPIRICAL evidence) a subsidiary of pfizer, the guys who make the BLUE pill (another crazy pill marketed for unhealthy people, low on testosterone with blood pressure issues and cardiovascular problems), the researchers downplay (just like cheaters) that this drug does not cause _many_ new synapses  wow really, not many, thanks.

These anti depressents react badly, some can cause violence, and they don't solve problems. Since this is revolved around drugs its too big to go over in one sitting, I'll end up turning this thread into some kind of history of research and scandal that has been in progress for a while on our newborns today, while their immune systems are still immature we shoot them up with all these vaccines and heaven forbid that these are not harmful but they do deposit approximately 66 viral and bacterial antigens and a dozen different chemicals into a six month old infant which is measurable. If you see what we do to our newborns, what do we do to the adults. When it comes to meds, I don't play around and neither should you, trying out these drugs is no benefit, but even worse than the bi polarity itself to begin with. 
The benefits do not outweigh the consequences (symptoms). Think about it before you decide to leave her and move on, or work with her and help her.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I think you need to step back and go take some time off of work and take a vaction. Get away (alone) from the day to day and clear your head.

As far as your wife goes you lied to her. The deciet your created was not of her own design, it was your choice to go behind her back and bang her friend....all the while you could have banged her in front of your wife.....so bad on you bro...stop blaming your chick for "designing" the affair.

Guilts a b**ch, now you want to go off and find some old fling to make it worse. Dude you need to get away and figure your own crap out before you can figure out this messed up marriage.

I suggest some time away from everything and clear your head.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> As far as your wife goes you lied to her. The deciet your created was not of her own design, it was your choice to go behind her back and bang her friend.... all the while you could have banged her in front of your wife... so bad on you bro...stop blaming your chick for "designing" the affair


Ditto x 1000. Own your stuff, man. Anger is sometime useful, often the worse advicer. Anger fueled you actions, anger helps you to deflect responsability.
Your wife knows she's a big burden. You can't expect she'd drop your failure, it's unrealistic. Don't defend yourself. Clean your side.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Exactly, these things never help to improve the sex life between a man and a wife. They exploit themselves to perversion leading to so many escalating features of cheating, resent, anger.


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

I have owned it. The affair is done. The contact with the OW is cut and I have confessed everything and expressed my regret. Hell, I've apologized to my mother-in-law about my part in all of this.

I hid it because the friend asked me to at the time and it was so messed up. When she made the pass at me this spring when contact got restored I freaked and did not want that to happen again. I knew I had to come clean. And I have.

That was two months ago. She is still a problem for my wife. They still work in the same place and my wife went up to her yesterday and told her she loves her and wishes we were still friends all after she has been telling other coworkers about the affair. My wife is changing departments in a week but it is still nerve wracking.

I've taken a vacation and was a lot better. It only took me a week with her to get back to anxious and freaked out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> They still work in the same place and my wife went up to her yesterday and told her she loves her and wishes we were still friends all after she has been telling other coworkers about the affair. My wife is changing departments in a week but it is still nerve wracking.


Well this bit adds a spin to the whole thing. First it was a double betrayal, she opened the marriage but was always forthcoming. OW was a friend who also betrayed her while she was trying to help her. Beyond her normal ups and downs as BP now she flip flops between forgiving, pusnighing , loving and hating her (predictable). Also work is a huge trigger, being near this former friend everyday is hurting her, preventing her healing. I hope quitting that job helps her. I also suggest for her also total NC (forgiving two betrayers demands too much energy, in cases like this normaly the former friend is dropped in order to focus in forgiving the WS) but she's the one to decide, it's their relationship as friends. You stay away of OW forever anyway.

Hope things improve very soon. Keep swimming.


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

Ok let's just take that spin and turn it I to a big whirlwind. 

Before the threesome my wife confessed to me that she was falling in love with the OW and wanted to kiss her and be with her. I was pretty crushed considering my wife had pretty much stopped sleeping with me. So after a few months the OW is fast friends with my wife and flirty but not really responsive to my wife's advances though she is hyper sexual and has a swinging past with her husband. By this time the OW had got to know me and liked me more than my wife, but I would never do anything or respond to her. I was devoted. Sometime later my wife brings up threesome as a way to be with her friend or help her out. I resist and the friend resists too because she knows what it will do to me and that she can't have me though she wants me.

But another month or two and going back to our place after margaritas made stuff happen.

My wife was upset that the OW just barely kissed her and I was confused why my wife didn't get in on the action with the OW.

I was caught in the middle of all this stuff. The two times I was with the OW The first was a day it two after threesome and it was to deal with a relaxation problem I had and get more comfortable for what we thought would be a next time. The second and last time was a couple of months later when the OW was tipsy and I was driving her home from a party and she came on to me and I couldn't seem to stop myself. 

Add to that once I confessed to the extras and that the OW came on to me again and I snapped into reality of not wanting that to happen again my wife confessed to a trip the OW and her took before the threesome where they went wild and picked up a waiter and took him out to a sex shop / peep show place and fondled him as they watched other people having sex. My wife almost invited him up to their hotel room but the OW cut that off bc she didn't feel safe. Neither my wife
Or the OW say anything happened between them just them sexing up another guy.

It is not a conventional affair and I own my part but I am in the middle of a maelstrom
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> Before the threesome my wife confessed to me that she was falling in love with the OW and wanted to kiss her and be with her. I was pretty crushed considering my wife had pretty much stopped sleeping with me. So after a few months the OW is fast friends with my wife and flirty but not really responsive to my wife's advances though she is hyper sexual and has a swinging past with her husband. By this time the OW had got to know me and liked me more than my wife, but I would never do anything or respond to her. I was devoted. Sometime later my wife brings up threesome as a way to be with her friend or help her out. I resist and the friend resists too because she knows what it will do to me and that she can't have me though she wants me.


So your wife used you as a way to get into OW's pants. Another spin indeed. Do you think her anger nowadays is masking jelousy? Deflecting resentments because OW chose you? Is your wife still "hooked up" into OW? Way in the hell you don't *demand* NC between WW and OW?


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> my wife confessed to a trip the OW and her took before the threesome where they went wild and picked up a waiter and took him out to a sex shop / peep show place and fondled him as they watched other people having sex. My wife almost invited him up to their hotel room but the OW cut that off bc she didn't feel safe. Neither my wife
> Or the OW say anything happened between them just them sexing up another guy.


OW is toxic anyway, she feeds WW's dysfunctions. Demand NC.
She's in her right to be angry about your deceit but c'om, she cheated first, she's the one pushing boundaires. She shouln't hide behind BP anymore. She knows since '07.
What a tangled web!!


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

Yes that is what it is. I had an aha moment in therapy three weeks ago as I was struggling with my NC with OW that the WW must too and the counselor agreed. 

After that when I was deconstructing the affair and my feelings to my wife she got mad at OW and went to her house and brought her over to confront her in front of me. Very surreal and f'd up.

My wife can be on different shifts from OW but she picked last four shifts in old unit to be on her shift and one day a week or so ago she went to find her in stairwell and hugged her.

Bc my wife has been telling coworkers she is moving shifts to get away for OW the OW told her yesterday that she was "Fn Ridiculous" which hurt my wife. 

I guess this is why I am freaking out. My wife hasn't ended her affair and she's being freaky about it. 

Getting herself straight was one of my stay/leave points.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

Well the OW doesn't want my WW but my WW is still seeking her out. I know the OW wants me and I'm staying away. Far away.

Part of reason for my messed up chatting with an old lover. Messed up sexual stuff with me and I have to avoid OW at all costs for myself and I'm unsure about the WW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

Tangled web indeed. That's why I'm trying to figure out why I'm still in it. I can leave. Why don't I?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

She's still in affair mode, I'd say still cheating. I suspects the affair is still goinig on undergroud, it's almost goninig on at plain sight. She can't focus in the marriage with OW in the picture, it's completely useless, no amount of MC, IC, meds will fix this. She's spends all her energies and attention else where. *Demand *her to quit job yesterday. This or file. And you need to mean it. Really, talk to a lawyer. Start the 180, drop MC. You need to be very firm and don't back off on this. You won't share her. Period.
She needs to quit her job, she commit to lifelong NC with OW, she has to send a proper NC letter, she has to be totally transparent in comunication devices, email passwords, etc. She had to be accountable for her whereabuts. She has to disclose all her real involvement with OW and also old transgressions.


The 180 degree rules
Boundaries.
No More Mr Nice Guy


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Messing around with dosage levels of Gabapentin during renal failure is super dangerous by the way.


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

Acabado said:


> She's still in affair mode, I'd say still cheating. I suspects the affair is still goinig on undergroud, it's almost goninig on at plain sight. She can't focus in the marriage with OW in the picture, it's completely useless, no amount of MC, IC, meds will fix this. She's spends all her energies and attention else where. *Demand *her to quit job yesterday. This or file. And you need to mean it. Really, talk to a lawyer. Start the 180, drop MC. You need to be very firm and don't back off on this. You won't share her. Period.
> She needs to quit her job, she commit to lifelong NC with OW, she has to send a proper NC letter, she has to be totally transparent in comunication devices, email passwords, etc. She had to be accountable for her whereabuts. She has to disclose all her real involvement with OW and also old transgressions.
> 
> 
> ...


I've read NMMNG and Boundaries. I've been putting those into practice last couple of months. WW says I am pretty mean to her at times and demanding, but she finds that attractive.

I've never pressed WW for all of past contact and transgressions with OW. I have confessed all with details and timeline. I just have we were friends for years and the story from OW and WW about trip told at different times and when I was just with one or the other of them. I think the story isn't rehearsed. If they are having an affair underground they are being really devious. To be cold and fight in public and be shut off and cold with one another around me. Could be my wife is in one sided unrequited affair mode. The OW currently has a boyfriend and before we went NC professed no love lost for my wife and her BP since she divorced her BP husband this year.

I have been confused why my wife picked these last four shifts to be with her. We have talked about her having to NC the OW also, she gets mad because we are members of same gym and I check parking lot to make sure she isn't there but my wife seeks her out to tell her I love you and wish we were friends at work. Yeah, that is why I'm mad and anxious now.

I thought it was something else but the feelings resonate when I put them in that lens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

Runs like Dog said:


> Messing around with dosage levels of Gabapentin during renal failure is super dangerous by the way.


I know. She is going to see a new psychiatric doctor and do a complete drug audit and look at all her old profiles. The guy she has now is a notorious med manager and not that good. Hell he missed the neurontin she adds bc he wasn't demanding to see all her meds. I don't think he knows to this day she took that drug for almost a year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

This has been somewhat helpful. I've been doing lots of the NMMNG and Boundaries and even the 180 stuff though not from that list. It has taken a lot of energy to keep that up in the presence if my WW and I guess I just needed to breakdown, just not around her. I've been at this at the level described in 180 going on a month and a half, maybe two. My wife has had time to be further along than she is but she still breaks down and cries at odd things and she is still bringing up I have suffered no consequences of my part in the affair though I owned that and apologized almost two months ago.

I'm at the point where I'm going to have to enforce consequences and that is different than keeping my cool and not playing her emotional games.

Like I said I just needed to freak out a little.

On the drugs. I know that is messed up but most of the tough stuff came in after she wigged out and bit our foster son. Some of that was mandated by the state as part of her treatment. Job therapy and drug therapy but almost no work on relationships and interpersonal things. She can have good relationships with her manager but she sucks with other people and her husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Quote:"...my wife confessed to a trip the OW and her took before the threesome where they went wild and picked up a waiter and took him out to a sex shop / peep show place and fondled him as they watched other people having sex. My wife almost invited him up to their hotel room but the OW cut that off bc she didn't feel safe. Neither my wife
Or the OW say anything happened between them just them sexing up another guy." 


Time to leave! It is a slippery slope and your wife is way down and dragging you with her. 

This is mind & soul corrupting sh*t


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> Run, do not walk to read this book. Even if you don't divorce you will gain so much.
> 
> Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder (Paperback)
> Randi Kreger, Bill Eddy, William A. Eddy
> ...


Just an FYI, I was not able to find this book at the bookstore, but I did order it and it should be at my office in the weekend mail.

In the meantime, my counselor has hinted that he though my wife was BPD before and when I talked to him today he brought it back up. So, I was able to find "BPD for Dummies" as a starter and all I have to say is OMG.

I can also see that I have been working my way to 100% confidence in my decision to leave (this posting is one of my final throws to figure out why I don't plant myself firmly in the LEAVE camp).

I am in that camp now....as a friend and I worked out last week, it really is all about being 100% committed to your decision and logistics.

I realize from what little advice the "BPD for Dummies" has there are a lot of logistics to leave a BPD safely for me and for her.

I am committed to keeping it cool and playing it straight until I can review the "Splitting" book and make sure I cover what I know is missing.

I fully understand that I was manipulated into an affair so my BPD wife could get me to stay. It didn't hlep the OW was also mentally messed up.

For those of you who don't see that and ask me to man up to what I did.....when you can sit down with your mother-in-law and have a civil heart to heart discussion about everything that went on and be totally fair and equitable to all parties...


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Complex said:


> My counselor has hinted that he thought my wife was BPD before and when I talked to him today he brought it back up. So, I was able to find "BPD for Dummies" as a starter and all I have to say is OMG.


Complex, you are fortunate to have Diwali participating in your thread. Diwali gave you excellent advice when pointing you to the _Splitting_ book and BPDfamily.com. I am not a psychologist but I did live with a BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a bipolar foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found ten clear differences between the two disorders.

*One difference* is that the mood swings are on two separate spectra having very different polar extremes. Whereas a bipolar sufferer swings between _mania_ and _depression_, a BPDer flips back and forth between _loving you_ and _hating you_. Significantly, you describe your wife as engaging in very risky behavior but not as slipping into full-blown mania. And you describe her as flipping between loving you and hating you. 

*A second difference* is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. The latter therefore seems consistent with your description of numerous temper tantrums.

*A third difference* is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours). Again, these short-duration rages are consistent with with the tantrums you describe.

*A fourth difference* is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action. Significantly, the behavior you describe seems consistent with these event-triggered outbursts (e.g., as occurred when she bit your foster son).

*A fifth difference* is that, whereas bipolar can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by swallowing a pill, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry. Although meds can help reduce the associated anxiety, they cannot make a dent in the underlying problem: a disordered way of thinking that distorts her perceptions of your intentions and motivations.

*A sixth difference* is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly. This seems consistent with your description of spiteful behavior.

*A seventh difference* is that, whereas a bipolar sufferer is not usually angry, a BPDer is filled with anger that has been carried inside since early childhood. You only have to say or do some minor thing to trigger a sudden release of that anger -- which is consistent with your description.

*An eight difference* is that a bipolar sufferer typically is capable of tolerating intimacy when he is not experiencing strong mania or depression. In contrast, BPDers have such a weak and unstable self image that (except for the brief infatuation period) they cannot tolerate intimacy for long before feeling engulfed and suffocated by your personality.

BPDers therefore will create arguments over nothing as a way to push you away and give them breathing room. Hence, it is not surprising that they tend to create the very worst arguments immediately following the very best of times, i.e., right after an intimate evening or a great weekend spent together. You mention nothing about this, however.

*A ninth difference* is that the thinking and behavior of a BPDer includes more mental departures from reality (called "dissociation") wherein "feelings create facts." That is, BPDers typically do not intellectually challenge their intense feelings. Instead, they accept them as accurately reflecting your intentions and motivations. In contrast, bipolar disorder tends to be more neurotic in that the mood swings tend to be based more on extreme exaggerations of fact, not the creation of "fact" out of thin air based solely on feelings. You do not mention this, however.

*Finally, a tenth difference* is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if he or she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period. Before they can trust others, they must first learn how to trust and love themselves. 

Sadly, this lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when people cannot trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will.

Yet, despite these ten clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. One source of this confusion seems to be the fact that these two disorders often occur together. A large portion of bipolar sufferers also have full-blown BPD. 

Complex, if you would like to read about what it is like to live with a BPDer wife, I suggest you take a look at my Maybe's thread. He talks about his abusive W and I describe my abusive BPDer exW. My three posts there start at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to excellent online resources. Take care, Complex.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

She just reeks of BPd. I used to work in a mental
Hospital and the dr on our floor was a BPD specialist so we were "blessed" with getting all the new BPD people. I can't put it into words really but I can pick up on it from a mile away. There is an immaturity. They act like teenagers, they are overly dramatic about people and relationships. They change their mind and personality and moods at the drop of a hat. They pick up on other people's traits and take them on as their own. They have no true core of self, their values change constantly. 
They are very insecure. Everything is black and white, right or wrong. They either love you or hate you. 
I think my ex has BPD traits and one of the first things he did when we separated was to get all our friends on his side, lie and manipulate to make himself look like a great guy and me the crazy abuser.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Complex, you are fortunate to have Diwali participating in your thread. Diwali gave you excellent advice when pointing you to the _Splitting_ book and BPDfamily.com. I am not a psychologist but I did live with a BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a bipolar foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found ten clear differences between the two disorders.
> 
> *One difference* is that the mood swings are on two separate spectra having very different polar extremes. Whereas a bipolar sufferer swings between _mania_ and _depression_, a BPDer flips back and forth between _loving you_ and _hating you_. Significantly, you describe your wife as engaging in very risky behavior but not as slipping into full-blown mania. And you describe her as flipping between loving you and hating you.


I think my wife trusts me enough and needs the security I provide that she swings between love and "frustrated" with me. Other people and friends, that is another matter. With our OW, she is Hate/Love in cycles that are as frequent as days or hours. With other old friends, she would do anything for them and then forget they existed. She has no "time spanning pick up where we left of friendships" all those people don't keep in touch with her so they are not good friends (doesn't matter what she does). She does the same thing with churches, jobs and co-workers.



> *A second difference* is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. The latter therefore seems consistent with your description of numerous temper tantrums.


They happen very rapidly with my wife. She went from you should pack and go to don't leave in under 5 minutes a week ago. She has gone from furious crying and hyperventilating about me describing the affair (for transparency) to hot and craving sex with me in under 30 minutes. I have seen her go from happy to mad in a sentence many times (she says why did I suck the joy out of her with my off hand comment)



> *A third difference* is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours). Again, these short-duration rages are consistent with with the tantrums you describe.


I can generally calm her down or get a change in mood in an hour or less and the slate seems clean most mornings.



> *A fourth difference* is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action. Significantly, the behavior you describe seems consistent with these event-triggered outbursts (e.g., as occurred when she bit your foster son).


She bit foster son, pulled knife on me, broke a computer keyboard, broke a door frame, gone from going in car happily to you must pull over now and feed me and I don't want to eat anywhere you can quickly get to...all in minutes or seconds.



> *A fifth difference* is that, whereas bipolar can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by swallowing a pill, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry. Although meds can help reduce the associated anxiety, they cannot make a dent in the underlying problem: a disordered way of thinking that distorts her perceptions of your intentions and motivations.


She was fully medicated and under treatment for job related stress and job related problems (like with bosses and co-workers) when she hatched the threesome. Looking over old Rx records, there is hardly a drug she hasn't been on. She has also had 3 psychiatrists, and 6 counselors since I have been married to her and who knows how many before we met.



> *A sixth difference* is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly. This seems consistent with your description of spiteful behavior.


She has been very abusive of me in several verbal ways over the years. I received a very prestigious community award several years ago and I was made to feel so undeserving of the award that I did not invite my parents and my wife told my mom "good, he's gotten the highest honor they can give, he can't get anymore of these damn awards"


> *A seventh difference* is that, whereas a bipolar sufferer is not usually angry, a BPDer is filled with anger that has been carried inside since early childhood. You only have to say or do some minor thing to trigger a sudden release of that anger -- which is consistent with your description.


She can get angry and cry at the drop of a hat. She just had a visit with a new Psychiatrist that was recommended because of his judicious use of meds and experience with BPD and she told me he said she was agitated and had pressured speech through the whole session. She was probably that way because her going was a condition of me even thinking about staying with her. In a psych profile after the arrest, she almost maxed out the DVI for Violence and Self Control and the SAQ for Aggressiveness. All those indicators were in the 80s and 90s out of 100



> *An eight difference* is that a bipolar sufferer typically is capable of tolerating intimacy when he is not experiencing strong mania or depression. In contrast, BPDers have such a weak and unstable self image that (except for the brief infatuation period) they cannot tolerate intimacy for long before feeling engulfed and suffocated by your personality.
> 
> BPDers therefore will create arguments over nothing as a way to push you away and give them breathing room. Hence, it is not surprising that they tend to create the very worst arguments immediately following the very best of times, i.e., right after an intimate evening or a great weekend spent together. You mention nothing about this, however.


My wife is not sentimental. In trying to deal with our current problems I pulled out a "love box" we made full of stuff from our first year of marriage. I found it very moving and reminded me of the good parts of the first year, my wife wanted to burn it. She has given away or sold lots of personal stuff that belongs to her and I have to make sure she doesn't give my stuff away at times. OK, here's a typical one, we took a trip to Chicago and it was a really nice trip, but we also planned to spend two day in St. Louis with my sister, her husband and our niece and nephew. The trip was wonderful until we got to St. Louis. All because we were with my family, and she at least likes my niece and nephew, and we did some fun stuff in St. Louis.



> *A ninth difference* is that the thinking and behavior of a BPDer includes more mental departures from reality (called "dissociation") wherein "feelings create facts." That is, BPDers typically do not intellectually challenge their intense feelings. Instead, they accept them as accurately reflecting your intentions and motivations. In contrast, bipolar disorder tends to be more neurotic in that the mood swings tend to be based more on extreme exaggerations of fact, not the creation of "fact" out of thin air based solely on feelings. You do not mention this, however.


Ohh this happens all the time. I get to hear how people at work hate her because she sings. Or how people at work are not team players. When she has no desire for sex with me, then she is unlovable, or too fat, or sick, or I'm unattractive. She feels hungry, but she is not so famished she is ok with the first acceptable place you can go, or with the food in the house, it is an ordeal to feed her. The foster/adopt kids are bonding with everybody but her. They aren't my friend because they didn't come see me sing last night at karaoke. One time the theory of what people were doing with her was so far out there I said, OK just how smart are these people you are talking about...not that smart, do you realize how complex and how many people this conspiracy against you would have to be?



> *Finally, a tenth difference* is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if he or she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period. Before they can trust others, they must first learn how to trust and love themselves.
> 
> Sadly, this lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when people cannot trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will.


She doesn't trust me to do housework and things like that, but she does trust me with the finances, and she trusts me with lots of other things. She isn't too trusting of me now that she has a reason not to. Months on I am still being questioned about the affair, or if I have had contact, or if there is somebody else, all the while she signs up for shifts with the OW.



> Yet, despite these ten clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. One source of this confusion seems to be the fact that these two disorders often occur together. A large portion of bipolar sufferers also have full-blown BPD.
> 
> Complex, if you would like to read about what it is like to live with a BPDer wife, I suggest you take a look at my Maybe's thread. He talks about his abusive W and I describe my abusive BPDer exW. My three posts there start at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to excellent online resources. Take care, Complex.


I will read it, but I also know the BPD fits because of all that and the self harm. My wife has had suicidal thoughts on several occasions and she always seems to have some massive bruise on her body. Arms, legs, etc. She says she bruises easy and says it was carelessly running into door or desk or table. There was one incident that stands out to me now where she slipped in a tub and got a HUGE nasty bruise in a nice hotel. I was attending a convention and was spending almost no time with her, but that injury pulled me away to take care of her and run errands for most of a day. She has also had 5 car wrecks, 5 surgeries and seems to be in the chiropractor or massage therapist once a month. She has also conned our doctor into giving her inhalers for asthma and bronchitis. She got one right before she bit our foster kid and she got one around the time of the threesome and she tried to get one a week ago when she ditched her first appointment with the referred psychiatrist.


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

Ohhh, Uptown. As you say, the traits show up in the honeymoon. My wife kept it together through 6 months of dating and 6 months of engagement. Some of the worst sex we had up to that time was on the honeymoon...I wrote it off as tired and "supposed to perform".

On the honeymoon trip, my wife chopped off all of her lovely red hair in a salon visit she had planned while I went to a museum. She went from long red hair to an almost butch haircut with blonde highlights.

We honeymooned in the Washington State area and we wound up getting a very nice convertible Mustang and the weather cooperated and it was lovely and sunny all week. We made a distance error early in our trip and picked a place she wanted to go but it made the drive longer and made us pressed for time the first couple of days. I called the places and they said no problem on time, but she was upset and couldn't just enjoy the coast with the top down in a convertible Mustang and her husband.

Later on the honeymoon, when we were at a place we stayed two days, we had sex in a position we had liked before and she said it hurt and didn't ever want to do that again...though then and today it is one of her favorite positions.

I chalked it all up to wedding stress at the time...but then the rages at being 5 minutes late, or volunteer committee meetings lasting to long, or whatever.


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

One last thing.

In May when I told my wife that if things did not change I was 70% to divorce, she got all concerned and starting reading the books my counselor suggested and trying to do the exercises and sex that wasn't existent for months was so hot it was unreal.

Then I started talking about the old threesome and told about the really messed up affair it spawned and she went back and forth from "You're scum" to "It could have continued if I had know", "To I should divorce you" to "I should call the OW and make friends with her again...in A SINGLE NIGHT.

Two past week I went to visit a friend out of state for four days and talk about all of this. When I got back, my wife talked about her having a vision of her own place that she decorated and controlled and then 30 minutes later when I said that is a good vision to have she became very accommodating, seeing that I was more ready to go now.

This past weekend, she went to visit a friend and when she got back she said I needed to go, but as I started to pack she said don't leave.

Two days later she was willing to not talk about the affair anymore and she is now extra lovey dovey and has even called to initiate sex with me twice in the last week.


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> She just reeks of BPd. I used to work in a mental
> Hospital and the dr on our floor was a BPD specialist so we were "blessed" with getting all the new BPD people. I can't put it into words really but I can pick up on it from a mile away. There is an immaturity. They act like teenagers, they are overly dramatic about people and relationships. They change their mind and personality and moods at the drop of a hat. They pick up on other people's traits and take them on as their own. They have no true core of self, their values change constantly.
> They are very insecure. Everything is black and white, right or wrong. They either love you or hate you.
> I think my ex has BPD traits and one of the first things he did when we separated was to get all our friends on his side, lie and manipulate to make himself look like a great guy and me the crazy abuser.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife hasn't gotten "people on her side" against me, but she is doing that to the OW, though she loves her. I seem to be immune to this, maybe it is because I am male and her deep seated problem is with females (Mother). Some old psych surveys we did for foster/adopt say my wife was 'touched and made to touch" the husband of a babysitter when she was in elementary school and all her mom supposedly did was say "just tell him not to do that."

Now, when I talk to people, I am getting people on my side and though my mother never said anything about me divorcing my wife, she firmly believes she said it and even underlined it in a note to our counselor under concerns.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Complex said:


> She said I needed to go, but as I started to pack she said don't leave.


This rapid alternating between splitting you black and splitting you white is why the #2 best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused spouses) is called _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> Too many meds affecting the mind creating chemicalimbalances and abnormalities for the brain to function, I'm sure even a scan could show that. These drugs are killers, literally. All the massacres from littleton colorado, santee california, red lake, etc started with anti depressents, leading these people to be on psychotropic drugs. Why do people always go to doctors seeking a pill for the solution, when the problem lies in their lifestyles. These people get put into prescriptions, innocently enough as they are, they are ignorant because they do not use the power of todays easily obtainable knowledge and expect the doctor to know everything and solve everything. What do we want next? Pills to wake us up at 6 am, pills for breakfast, pills for headaches, then pills for the ulcers that all thesep ills cause, then a pill to solve ED which was caused by all the stress these other pills caused.
> For your solution, I believe you need a path of naturopathy. Leave the meds and doctors, leave these mind affecting drugs. It is like trying to cure alcoholism with a pill three times a day, and you take that pill with a shot of vodka. Its like curing cancer with a pill while you are still eating all the cancer inducing foods and chemicals(artificial flavors).


Are you saying that bipolar mental health problems result from lifestyle choices?:scratchhead:


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Are you saying that bipolar mental health problems result from lifestyle choices?:scratchhead:


No, he isn't saying that. BPD typically does not respond to drug therapy because the cause is at the core of being. Lifestyle choices are spawned from the core.

Drugs can regulate the chemicals in the brain and where they act, but if your core is messed up, you mis-interpret these normal neurochemical signals. Pain = Pleasure is one most people can identify with.

If Pain = Pleasure, you choose a lifestyle that can cause you pain.

That is a very simple analogy, but it works to help me understand it.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

So glad to hear diwali123 and Uptown showed up. It seems you are not unaware of what's going on with your wife. You have endured way more than most. I wonder how your wife is going to make it without you. Really.
Find you courage, hang tough, friend.


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

Acabado said:


> So glad to hear diwali123 and Uptown showed up. It seems you are not unaware of what's going on with your wife. You have endured way more than most. I wonder how your wife is going to make it without you. Really.
> Find you courage, hang tough, friend.


Yes. They have been a huge help. I really did not know what was going on with my wife. In retrospect I think the diagnosis of end stage renal disease just a couple of years into our marriage helped prolong all of my suffering. She had a real life disease and society and everyone else found it normal for me to slip into the extreme caregiver mode.

Mind you, I am a caregiver by nature, but since I married at 30, I had also done a lot of work in college and my early adult life to balance my care giving with my self love. My therapist who knew me when I was single feels I had reached a good balance by the time I met my wife, so I have regressed. I'm going back through the concepts of differentiation, mindfulness and relaxation and these are not foreign concepts...just concepts that have been stifled and buried by my relationship....until now.

I am comfortable with and have forgiven myself for treating myself so poorly and not looking out for my interests for so long. I understand why it happened and how it could happen to most anyone who has lived through the real trauma I have over these last 12 years.

I have been working in this direction for several months, but no I did not have a name to put on this dragon I am fighting and I did not know its tactics. Knowing what kind of fight I am in is actually making me a better fighter.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Complex, are you still around? If so, please give us an update on how you and your W are doing this week. I hope you are starting to feel stronger and less confused.


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## Complex (Jul 31, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Complex, are you still around? If so, please give us an update on how you and your W are doing this week. I hope you are starting to feel stronger and less confused.


Let's just say it was providence to come here and have you and another respond and get me to go back and look at what has been in front of me for a while. I am utilizing better resources for my situation and I was already in therapy, but I have radically changed its purpose and things are changing rapidly for th better.

Everything is going to be fine. I'm going to be fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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