# I did it... I contacted the OW.



## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Oh. My. God. I said in my last post that I was thinking of employing some underhand tactics in order to find out once and for all whether there was more to my H's EA than he has told me.

Well. I went and bought a prepay phone. Last night I messaged the OW pretending to be my H. Why did I not do this before???!!!

Luckily she fell for it hook, line and sinker (she's obviously still got a thing for him.) I've been messaging under the guise of casual catching-up, trying not to rush stuff in order to glean info from her about what happened and what didn't happen.

I'm not entirely done with it yet, and hope to continue tomorrow but I don't think it'll take much to get what I want to know out of her.

So far I have found out that:
*the last time he saw her WAS the last time he saw her
*he did for the most part ignore her fishing messages as he told me
*it appears she did kiss him: I don't think it happened exactly as he told me, it sounds like she kissed him for a moment and that was it but that he didn't push her off like he said, but it doesn't sound like there was any more to it than that
*he made it clear at work that he liked her and she found out, this I did not know and am very angry about as he never told me this but he has claimed that he doesn't remember ever saying anything like this.

Will report more later.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

You had best have an exit strategy from this texting, she could take it wrong and compromise your husband at work. I strongly suggest you call her make it clear it was you , that she verified what your husband told you. Then suggest she gets herself a single man. Warn your husband after you confront her .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Eli-Zor said:


> You had best have an exit strategy from this texting, she could take it wrong and compromise your husband at work. I strongly suggest you call her make it clear it was you , that she verified what your husband told you. Then suggest she gets herself a single man. Warn your husband after you confront her .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: Otherwise this could ignite all kinds of things. I can think of a couple of scenarios--none of which are good for you.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Yes you are right. I hadn't thought of it like that, that it could have an effect on him indirectly. The thing is that they no longer work together, it's kinda complicated to explain, they don't work for the same company but work close by and were working together on a project.

As soon as I have elicited everything I want to know, I will be clear that it was all me and not him.

I assumed to myself I would tell my H at some point soon. I know he will more than likely be angry: he was always very insistent he didn't want me speaking to her or contacting her in any way about what happened because he said basically I'd look like a psycho woman as there was nothing in it (for him.) I thought it was because he had something to hide. He didn't really outside of what he told me. OK so the details aren't all the same, and there's stuff I'm not happy about, but I feel reassured now that what I feared might be true (he had deep feelings for her, or they'd gone to a PA) isn't true.

I am however absolutely furious that he would go and tell complete strangers (her direct co-workers), who he'd all ready told about me and the children, that he had the hots for her. Inappropriate much??!! Seems he told them, who went back to her and told her, and she then thought, ah, chance to make a move. I just can't fathom why he would do that, knowing how she felt. What was he thinking would come out of it? I dread to think.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

827Aug said:


> :iagree: Otherwise this could ignite all kinds of things. I can think of a couple of scenarios--none of which are good for you.


Please explain!


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## wild_irish_rose (Aug 6, 2011)

Please be very careful with this. My sister did this when she wanted to find out if her husband's affair was a PA or just an EA. OW told her a bunch of lies including that she didn't know he was married (he supposedly told her he was divorced), and then OW told her husband about the whole thing. Her husband was absolutely furious that she had gone behind his back and done this, and moved out of the family home. Within a week he was living with the OW and her kids and he is still there 5 years later.


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## HappyAtLast (Jan 25, 2010)

I remember when I contacted the OW my H was having an EA with...I'm glad I did it because it scared her..she didn't think I would do it. and of course right after she called my H and told her..I think he was glad I did it. What a cry baby she was and still is probably.
I hope it goes your way...are you gonna step up a meeting with her, pretending to be your H? I get so tired of these women who think they can just waltz right in and think they can have any man they want to, regardless of whether they're married or not


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

wild_irish_rose said:


> Please be very careful with this. My sister did this when she wanted to find out if her husband's affair was a PA or just an EA. OW told her a bunch of lies including that she didn't know he was married (he supposedly told her he was divorced), and then OW told her husband about the whole thing. Her husband was absolutely furious that she had gone behind his back and done this, and moved out of the family home. Within a week he was living with the OW and her kids and he is still there 5 years later.


well he was furious because he wanted to protect his affair if you ask me and he likely would have moved out anyways,if anything your sister hastened the process


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

walkingwounded said:


> Please explain!


If the OW thinks your husband is the one contacting her, she may think he has changed his mind. She may see it as a green light to pursue him again. Or, your husband and the OW could figure out it was you sending the messages; there would be some angry people for sure.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

walkingwounded said:


> he was always very insistent he didn't want me speaking to her or contacting her in any way about what happened because he said basically I'd look like a psycho woman


Ya think?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You have just now lowered yourself to their level. Good work.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

btw, it would really help those of us giving advice if you would stick to one thread, so that people can see your history/background without having to go searching for it, and so people don't give you bad information based on faulty/incomplete data.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> well he was furious because he wanted to protect his affair if you ask me and he likely would have moved out anyways,if anything your sister hastened the process


I agree. He was not that committed to the marriage if he up and left. 



827Aug said:


> If the OW thinks your husband is the one contacting her, she may think he has changed his mind. She may see it as a green light to pursue him again.


:iagree:


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## sexuallyfustrated (Mar 24, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> well he was furious because he wanted to protect his affair if you ask me and he likely would have moved out anyways,if anything your sister hastened the process


My thoughts EXACTLY. He left because thats what he wanted to do.


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## sexuallyfustrated (Mar 24, 2011)

You do not look like a psycho your not running around threating ppl. Or acting and ass, you are trying to find your own peace of mind by inspecting. Making certaing that what he is saying is at least in some form of the truth of what he has been saying and not trusting him blindly. As for you lowering yourself to their level. You did nothing of the sort because you were not the spouse that broke your vows or the loose booty woman that cheated or tried to cheat with a married man. You did what you felt you needed to do for you for what ever reason so yes GOOD WORK!


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

sexuallyfustrated said:


> You do not look like a psycho your not running around threating ppl. Or acting and ass, you are trying to find your own peace of mind by inspecting. Making certaing that what he is saying is at least in some form of the truth of what he has been saying and not trusting him blindly. As for you lowering yourself to their level. You did nothing of the sort because you were not the spouse that broke your vows or the loose booty woman that cheated or tried to cheat with a married man. You did what you felt you needed to do for you for what ever reason so yes GOOD WORK!


I admit I did not entirely think through the consequences of this. My primary goal was my peace of mind. I knew I could not go on not knowing for sure if there was anything more.

So I did it. I am pleased I did it, and I knew I still would be happy with that if my H wasn't. I got the info I needed. I revealed myself to the OW. She had the audacity to tell ME to leave her alone! I laughed and didn't reply. I then told my H. Was prepared for him to be angry. He wasn't. Surprised, yes. Amused even. Asked did I have the peace of mind I wanted. I said yes. He was fine about it, asked did I feel I could move on now? Yes.

We still have things to address. I am wary but positive now for sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Ha ha she knows you know, she cannot hide away and will be smarting for some time. 

Time to focus on yourselves
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

walkingwounded said:


> So I did it. I am pleased I did it, and I knew I still would be happy with that if my H wasn't. I got the info I needed. I revealed myself to the OW. She had the audacity to tell ME to leave her alone! I laughed and didn't reply. I then told my H. Was prepared for him to be angry. He wasn't. Surprised, yes. Amused even. Asked did I have the peace of mind I wanted. I said yes. He was fine about it, asked did I feel I could move on now? Yes.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


THAT ^^ is a positive step in the path of reconciliation. Congrats. I'm happy for you that it brought you the peace of mind you were after and even more so that your H reacted the way he did. That was the reaction of a spouse who is remorseful and wants to reconcile. BUT - don't move on until you are ready - not him.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sexuallyfustrated said:


> You As for you lowering yourself to their level. You did nothing of the sort because you were not the spouse that broke your vows or the loose booty woman that cheated


No, you just set up a fake account in someone else's name and pretended to be someone else so as to entrap them both. When the police do that, it's considered illegal and nonbinding in court.

ETA: I'm glad it worked out for you, and that you told them both the truth. You're lucky it went no further.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

walkingwounded said:


> She had the audacity to tell ME to leave her alone!


Hehehe. You called her out and let her know you know. She knows the affair isn't a secret now. Good. 

Now--don't contact her again.


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## sexuallyfustrated (Mar 24, 2011)

turnera said:


> No, you just set up a fake account in someone else's name and pretended to be someone else so as to entrap them both. When the police do that, it's considered illegal and nonbinding in court.
> 
> ETA: I'm glad it worked out for you, and that you told them both the truth. You're lucky it went no further.


These days you don't have to set up a account. Just get a prepaid cell phone out of any corner store cor as little as $15 and add mins. So setting up a account in another name is not even a consideration these days. And if there was nothing going on there would be no need for entrapment. That was called verifying info. You can never take a known lier at their word.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> THAT ^^ is a positive step in the path of reconciliation. Congrats. I'm happy for you that it brought you the peace of mind you were after and even more so that your H reacted the way he did. That was the reaction of a spouse who is remorseful and wants to reconcile. BUT - don't move on until you are ready - not him.


This ^^^^^ and more this ^^^^^. His reaction told me a lot. Funny, sometimes despite what he has done, I realize he gets me on a deeper level and know how my very intricate and complicated mind works. He knew I was having difficulty, this had vaguely been brought up previously, but I think we both thought it would never get to that point.

I knew he was frustrated, justifiably now I can see, that I didn't believe that nothing else had happened. So in me doing this, it has alleviated that pressure on him and brought me a whole lot of peace.

I have no intentions of contacting the OW ever again. I am working on replacing any thoughts of her and those two with positive thoughts.

I plan to discuss this in MC. Although I am relieved, I am as I said angry at him for his part in creating this situation. We have discussed boundaries and what would happen if he found himself in a similar situation, but I think now that his saying that he would just handle it and I should trust him, need examining more. I have no doubt that he will encounter other women along the way that he will that he finds attractive. And not just in the physical sense but the whole lot as he did this woman. But in that kind of environment, with his guy co-workers around, he has showed that it went way past where it should have stayed.

Am I reasonable to think that articulating such a desire out loud towards another woman, not necessarily to her but to others, is overstepping the mark? This crosses a boundary for me. I cannot think what on earth would have possessed him to not even "confide" this info, but it not even be only an open secret to everyone there. The stupid thing for me inretrospect is that I knew she liked him, and I could see he liked her, but I genuinely thought he was completely trustworthy and would enforce his boundaries. Obviously not. I would be interested to see where he thought his boundaries lay and if he would e happy with me having the same ones and using them in the same way...?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Oh and the other thing... In the context of the exchange we had, she mentioned that being called a potential homewrecker is way too harsh, she was "just looking..." 

Deluded much???!!!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yes, you are reasonable. You are married. You made a vow to choose to 'woo' only one woman - you. Anything else is overstepping and disrespecting you.

That said, I want to make sure that you're taking a good hard look at your relationship with him. The more you fulfill his Emotional Needs and the less you Love Bust him, the less likely this will ever happen again. Have you read His Needs Her Needs to understand this concept? Are you spending 15 hours a week together to maintain a loving bond? Do you understand each other's Love Language? 

Such things are essential to maintaining a marriage that is less susceptible to outside people (for him OR you).


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

turnera said:


> Yes, you are reasonable. You are married. You made a vow to choose to 'woo' only one woman - you. Anything else is overstepping and disrespecting you.
> 
> That said, I want to make sure that you're taking a good hard look at your relationship with him. The more you fulfill his Emotional Needs and the less you Love Bust him, the less likely this will ever happen again. Have you read His Needs Her Needs to understand this concept? Are you spending 15 hours a week together to maintain a loving bond? Do you understand each other's Love Language?
> 
> Such things are essential to maintaining a marriage that is less susceptible to outside people (for him OR you).


We've been working on our relationship in MC. He said he felt completely happy with me. That he has no "needs." The MC suggested he felt this as his needs were being met. He said he wouldn't change anything about me.

Of course, I don'tfor a minute believe I have nothing to work on. I have been working on being more independent, in fact he made a very positive comment about this the other day, he has certainly noticed. I have been working on being more confident and stepping up more, and being more efficient at home to take the load off him more when he gets in from work. All things I have gauged he would appreciate.

Have read His Needs Her Needs and The 5 Love Languages. Mine is quality time and his is acts of service. The 15 hours is something we're not achieving right now, but it is prominent in my mind a la quality time, and he is making efforts, particularly with conversation. He even said he enjoys the talking we've been doing recently.

He is still adamant that what happened was not to do with me at all but with him. Again, I don't think it is that simple but I feel he has a problem with low self-esteem and seeks validation of his attractiveness from other women. Usually in a fairly harmless way but not this time. He said he always felt I fojnd him attractive and ne er doubted or doubts now that I love him because I show it (his words.) When he was younger he had a pattern of "stealing" girls he liked from their boyfriends, just to know he could do it. He is not however ****y or arrogant like that may sound. He is a very attractive and generous guy so from the outside it is hard to see why he would doubt his attractiveness, but I feel it's rooted in his childhood.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, I'm sure he does have a self-esteem issue. Most of us do. What is he doing about fixing that?


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## AppleDucklings (Mar 27, 2011)

walkingwounded said:


> Oh and the other thing... In the context of the exchange we had, she mentioned that being called a potential homewrecker is way too harsh, she was "just looking..."
> 
> Deluded much???!!!


All those homewreckers are delusional. Seriously, they are. They think that us wives should just up and walk away from our marriages and simply let them have our husbands.
They think we have no right to be upset, or that we should not take anything personally. Yes, they are delusional.

Cuckoo is what they are.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

turnera said:


> Oh, I'm sure he does have a self-esteem issue. Most of us do. What is he doing about fixing that?


Yeah well he's not doing an awful lot about it. It's one of the things I'm bringing up in our next MC. He says he doesn't *need* that ego boost, he doesn't go looking for it. No, he doesn't outrightly initiate attention, he's more indirect about it. He knows he does it. But won't go into it any deeper than saying that everyone is flattered by such attention. Hopefully the MC can suggest something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

walkingwounded said:


> Yeah well he's not doing an awful lot about it. It's one of the things I'm bringing up in our next MC. He says he doesn't *need* that ego boost, he doesn't go looking for it. No, he doesn't outrightly initiate attention, he's more indirect about it. He knows he does it. But won't go into it any deeper than saying that everyone is flattered by such attention. Hopefully the MC can suggest something.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please post or PM anything constructive your MC has to offer your H. The same played some part in my susceptibility to an affair but I'm not sure what to do about it other than focus on my wife and tell her what I need. While communicating with my wife is helping a lot I'd love to hear something more concrete if it's out there.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

AppleDucklings said:


> All those homewreckers are delusional. Seriously, they are. They think that us wives should just up and walk away from our marriages and simply let them have our husbands.
> They think we have no right to be upset, or that we should not take anything personally. Yes, they are delusional.
> 
> Cuckoo is what they are.


 My boss has been divorced for 10 or more years. In that time, she has fallen madly in love with two men - both married. Both, of course, had disastrous marriages they were just dying to leave - if they only could. It's so painful to watch her go down this path not once, but twice, knowing what I know. 

The second one, last summer, she actually had him move in with her for about a month or two, until his wife put her foot down and he went running home. Now she's back to believing that the first one (who lives in Europe) is her true soul mate, and this one was a 'sign' of what not to accept, and she's waiting for Europe guy, as he's supposedly now divorcing his wife.

blech

Just to remind you that they DO have an actual story, one that they believe, that looks good from THEIR side.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sigma1299 said:


> While communicating with my wife is helping a lot I'd love to hear something more concrete if it's out there.


Why aren't you in therapy to discover where your low self-esteem came from and how to improve it?


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## sexuallyfustrated (Mar 24, 2011)

AppleDucklings said:


> All those homewreckers are delusional. Seriously, they are. They think that us wives should just up and walk away from our marriages and simply let them have our husbands.
> They think we have no right to be upset, or that we should not take anything personally. Yes, they are delusional.
> 
> Cuckoo is what they are.


You know I really think those crazy heifers feel that way. When I first found out the first time and he stop dealing with her. She ask what about her, how could he do this to her. This time it's if you love me you will leave her and she gets pissed at me because he won't leave. Looney as a bat.


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## AppleDucklings (Mar 27, 2011)

sexuallyfustrated said:


> You know I really think those crazy heifers feel that way. When I first found out the first time and he stop dealing with her. She ask what about her, how could he do this to her. This time it's if you love me you will leave her and she gets pissed at me because he won't leave. Looney as a bat.


Yes, they do think that way! And it's down right nuts! These ow think we should gift wrap our husbands, our homes, our families and just smile and hand them over, because after all, our husbands love them now instead of us. Then we should hug and wish them all the best.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Please post or PM anything constructive your MC has to offer your H. The same played some part in my susceptibility to an affair but I'm not sure what to do about it other than focus on my wife and tell her what I need. While communicating with my wife is helping a lot I'd love to hear something more concrete if it's out there.


Sigma

let me tell you a little about my H and if yiu find yourself relating, I'd love to get some perspective from the "other side" so to speak.

My H is an attractive, alpha guy in the right alpha/beta proportions. Manly, assertive, independent, hard working. Very involved with the kids.

He is not short on female attention. His job involves a lot of typically male work, which sees him out and about a lot., and means he gets some very obvious female attention, which he appreciates! He can be flirty, and uses body language and some striking CKs right above his work pants to invite interest *rollseyes*


Despite him being buff, alpha and good company, he has deep-seated self-esteem issues. He appears to need the reassurance that other attractive females find him attractive. The things I mentioned he does have always been harmless, he laughs at himself for being cheesy about it. But his EA crossed a line he hadn't before. He can't explain fully because he doesn't know what made him do what he did except he liked knowing he had two attractive women lusting after him at the same time (ie me and her!)

Our MC says in feeding his ego, he indulged in a dangerous game within which the other player involved (the OW) was not aware of the rules (ie he wanted just the attention and never to take it any further.) We have worked on him being clear about his boundaries and outlining them in ways he feels comfortable with. We also agreed boundaries between ourselves involving the opposite sex, same for both of us.

One of his own boundaries is that he now avoids contact with other women unless family or necessary through work (ie clients.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

A lot of guys get their 'age' stunted in high school; they are perpetual 15 year olds. And with it goes all the angst, terror, fear, and insecurity of a 15 year old with a huge libido whose sole being is consumed with being considered a 'catch' by females. Odds are, that's where he's at.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

turnera said:


> Why aren't you in therapy to discover where your low self-esteem came from and how to improve it?


That's certainly a fair and good question. The answer, well I guess I ultimately am not sure that any therapist can give you a silver bullet to improve your self esteem. Connecting and communicating with my wife is helping, and understanding it is part of me is helping to. It's been a part of me most of my life, but I had actually forgotten it for a while - maybe why it contributed to my A. I guess I don't feel like it's not under control, and I don't think currently there is much a therapist can do about it. I'm interested in what walkingwounded's H get's in case I'm missing something.

Walking I'm studying your post, not sure if identify or not. Thinking......


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

turnera said:


> A lot of guys get their 'age' stunted in high school; they are perpetual 15 year olds. And with it goes all the angst, terror, fear, and insecurity of a 15 year old with a huge libido whose sole being is consumed with being considered a 'catch' by females. Odds are, that's where he's at.


That seems to make perfect sense.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Walkingwounded - I think I identify with your H at least partly, although our jobs are obviously different which is impacting the comparison. I run a company and sit behind a desk most of the time. What that means is that by virtue of my job I'm not in much of a position to encourage or receive "female attention", it also means that no one would describe me as "buff." Not that I'm a slob, but - well - I do have a desk job. I'm a mostly alpha guy but I've got a little beta to, so I identify there I guess. Anyway, I don't know a guy who doesn't like a little affirmation from an attractive female, for that matter I don't know a woman who doesn't like a little affirmation from an attractive male. It's hard to separate what's human nature from what's an emotional need or esteem issue. I know that when I stumbled into my EA I loved the attention and it was something that had gone missing in both directions in my marriage (we were both taking each other fore granted somewhat). I don't know - I'm happy to give any perspective I can but I'm not sure if my perspective is what you're after. Ask away if you like.


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## oaksthorne (Mar 4, 2011)

sexuallyfustrated said:


> You do not look like a psycho your not running around threating ppl. Or acting and ass, you are trying to find your own peace of mind by inspecting. Making certaing that what he is saying is at least in some form of the truth of what he has been saying and not trusting him blindly. As for you lowering yourself to their level. You did nothing of the sort because you were not the spouse that broke your vows or the loose booty woman that cheated or tried to cheat with a married man. You did what you felt you needed to do for you for what ever reason so yes GOOD WORK!


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Soccerfan73 (Jul 30, 2011)

turnera said:


> A lot of guys get their 'age' stunted in high school; they are perpetual 15 year olds. And with it goes all the angst, terror, fear, and insecurity of a 15 year old with a huge libido whose sole being is consumed with being considered a 'catch' by females. Odds are, that's where he's at.


:iagree:

I'm a guy and I agree with that 1000%. Well said.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

WW - I've thought and thought about "perspective from the other side." It's been an interesting mental exercise. I'm not totally sure what it is you're trying to understand better but I have a few additional thoughts. Like I said, everyone likes a little affirmation from a member of the opposite sex - that's just human nature. I guess the difference between normal human wiring and something that is an issue is either what the reaction to it is or having an overt need for it. In my case I didn't have an overt need for that attention, but my reaction when I got it was crazy. In your H's case I would surmise that he had more of an overt need for that attention and like the therapist said simply took a game of chicken too far, or finally encountered the person that kept giving him that attention in exactly the right way to keep him coming for more. That is not to excuse either his actions or mine. 

All I can speak to is what goes on in my head - for me I think it comes from a pretty deep seated not liking myself sometimes, but especially the last few years before my affair. What makes someone not like themselves I'm sure is as varied as anything else in this world but the end result is the same. When you don't like yourself and someone gives you that affirmation that they see good in you, be it physical attractiveness, personality, whatever; it is a very brief respite from yourself and you crave more of it. I'm interested to know - does your H ever suffer from mild depression? I do and I have a family history of it. It's nothing I've ever been diagnosed with or had any treatment for because I can manage it myself without those things but it is very much there. Note - I'm not comparing what goes on in my head to clinical depression which I believe is a very different beast than mine. The reason I ask is that I think for me the depression and self esteem issues are related - different manifestations of the same issue. For me, it was all about exactly the right person, circumstances and environment meeting at the same time and opening a door for me. The sad thing is I can't even say I walked through it - I ran, jumped and dove through it. The attention hit me over the head so hard so fast that I never really understood what was happening until I was way too far in to say "Oops." The attention my OW was giving me was overwhelming - literally and emotionally. I really identify with the drug theory you read about here and how it affects waywards. That's what it was like and I wanted more and more and more of that attention. I was eating it up until reality started to sink in and I began to really understand what I was doing and risking, but that's another thread. 

So why can't the spouse meet this need or provide the affirmation that apparently we need so badly? I think the spouse can, but I think it's a big job. The reason it is so much more effective from a stranger is the same reason it didn't ring true when your parents told you were smart or attractive in school - they're biased, they're supposed to feel that way so it dilutes the authenticity of the message. But a stranger? When they give you that attention they have no reason to (like OM/OW never have an ulterior motive right??) so it must be genuine. After all, this stranger picked you to pay attention to so you must be really be special. I think ultimately the only real peace is for people with self esteem issues to understand them and recognize them, and if they can't manage them get help. I don't think if the person with the esteem issue doesn't learn to manage it themselves that the spouse can ever fill the void.

Hope that is at least of little of what you were looking for. It was helpful to work my through - thanks.


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## oaksthorne (Mar 4, 2011)

So why can't the spouse meet this need or provide the affirmation that apparently we need so badly? I think the spouse can, but I think it's a big job. The reason it is so much more effective from a stranger is the same reason it didn't ring true when your parents told you were smart or attractive in school - they're biased, they're supposed to feel that way so it dilutes the authenticity of the message. But a stranger? When they give you that attention they have no reason to (like OM/OW never have an ulterior motive right??) so it must be genuine. After all, this stranger picked you to pay attention to so you must be really be special. I think ultimately the only real peace is for people with self esteem issues to understand them and recognize them, and if they can't manage them get help. I don't think if the person with the esteem issue doesn't learn to manage it themselves that the spouse can ever fill the void.

You got it. A's happen in the absence of honesty. One partner expects the other to fulfil all their needs ( not gonna happen), and when that doesn't occur, they don't talk about their frustrations with their spouse. Instead they talk to the potential AP. The AP stokes their ego and moves in on the BS's territory, because AP's tend not to be very scrupulous when it comes to BS's rights and feelings. The BS often becomes the villain of the piece for both AP's, so they can feel less guilt. There is no justice in this process. The two most at fault are the ones who suffer the least. They get the ego boost of being attractive and wanted; the excitement of new "love" and the beta endorphin rush that go's with it. The BS gets destroyed, devastated, and humiliated by these two people who are too self absorbed to see the situation as it really is. Neither one cares about the BS's ego; it is offered as a sacrifice on the alter of selfishness. This kind of disloyalty is very hard to deal with or forgive, which is why less than a third of these violated relationships survive.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Stupid comment from a man. We do look and we do comment to other men around around us. If that is as far as it goes it's nothing to be concerned about. It's when the line is crossed and we pursue that it is an issue. I have always told my wife - I may fill my eyes but never my hands and in thirty plus years of knowing her I never have. Not even emotionally!


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> So why can't the spouse meet this need or provide the affirmation that apparently we need so badly? I think the spouse can, but I think it's a big job. The reason it is so much more effective from a stranger is the same reason it didn't ring true when your parents told you were smart or attractive in school - *they're biased, they're supposed to feel that way so it dilutes the authenticity of the message.* But a stranger? When they give you that attention they have no reason to (like OM/OW never have an ulterior motive right??) so it must be genuine. After all, this stranger picked you to pay attention to so you must be really be special. I think ultimately the only real peace is for people with self esteem issues to understand them and recognize them, and if they can't manage them get help. I don't think if the person with the esteem issue doesn't learn to manage it themselves that the spouse can ever fill the void.


I *had* to get into this. I absolutely see what you are saying. However, I disagree. I think you are getting close to saying that a spouse has unconditional love for their spouse. Just becaue you are married, I don't feel it makes that message of love and expression of affection any less valid. A spouse is biased? Does the OM/OW they not find you attractive in the same way a spouse does? Particularly if there were no problems in your marriage anyway? 

I never, EVER have taken for granted that my H will always find me attractive in any sense of the word. I firmly believe a marriage needs constant nurturing. I would never devalue his declarations of how he feels about me because we're married. To me, that's crazy. To me, he's the one that mean them the most!


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

I don't disagree with you - not even a little bit. I was describing what is admittedly a flawed mental state. I never believed it to be right, either when it is happening inside my head or describing it here now. I know when my wife tells me those things that she is genuine. I guess what I was trying to describe is that sometimes my own self doubt gets me in my own way and keeps from accepting it in the manner it was intended. 

Of course the very real possibility exist that I am just way out of my depth in talking about this and totally off base...:scratchhead:


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> I don't disagree with you - not even a little bit. I was describing what is admittedly a flawed mental state. I never believed it to be right, either when it is happening inside my head or describing it here now. I know when my wife tells me those things that she is genuine. I guess what I was trying to describe is that sometimes my own self doubt gets me in my own way and keeps from accepting it in the manner it was intended.
> 
> Of course the very real possibility exist that I am just way out of my depth in talking about this and totally off base...:scratchhead:


I get you. I honestly think this is where I was when I was in my early twenties. I had a couple of long-term relationships before I met my H, and I had that feeling of needing to know other guys found me attractive, despite my then-boyfriends telling me they thought I was great.

Now, I have that feeling of I've been round the block, been there done that, and knowing exactly what I want. To me it doesn't matter anymore if other guys find me attractive: except in the "my H had an EA and messed up my self-esteem and I need to know I *am* attractive" way. Although that is passing now.

I'm not sure about my H, it was suggested he was in this phase that I all ready had. I don't know. I wouldn't have said so, because he has never acted in this way before. Yes he's liked the attention from other women but only in a passing way. Like he might revel in it but then it's done, forgotten about.

I think my H dipped his feet in, he liked the thrill but once he realized that actually it might turn into something because he had been unclear about his boundaries with her, he got scared. even the OW commented that when she made a pass at him and he turned her down, he went off "looking really scared." The complete irony of that? She liked him even more because she thought it meant he wasn't a ****. That is messed up.

He continued this for a while. Dipping his feet in. I think when he realized that actually him just flirting with the idea meant he could lose everything, he stepped back. He didn't cross the line to PA. He still underplays it to this day, I don't think he understands what the fog is. I still hold some horrible memories of things he said to me right after he found out. Not evil or nasty. But things he said that showed he had those feelings for her without realizing himself just how he felt. He was concerned that he had hurt her by ending it. Wanted to go and see her to make sure she was all right (classic scenario yes?) Back then I made brief but pointed contact with her via email to tell her to back off. The email itself was actually not offensive or even halfway mean. But he wanted me to go apologize for bothering her. Those things are the ones that cut deep, even though I *know* it was fog.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think that each of us puts our best 'face' forward - and never admits to our 'dates' our worse aspects.


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