# Tables have turned



## Rachel Marf (Jan 24, 2009)

I have been a good wife, good mother. The children are teenagers now and my life has a new direction - at long last I've got a career which I love and actually making good money for myself.... Only, now my husband is at home (redundancy) but the children are older, i'm out to work and he does nothing.... I HATE IT!!! I have big family values but am so sad that I slaved all these years providing a good stable family home and now i'm out to work and he's at home NOT providing a good stable home - I'm ready and strong enough to go it alone... but how do i break away without turning my back on it all. I love the children but surely it's my turn now... or am i being selfish? NB. We have a loveless marriage.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

2 questions.

How long was he the breadwinner?
In what way is it loveless, and why?


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## Rachel Marf (Jan 24, 2009)

Our sex life has always been a struggle - but haven't had sex for 9 months. He has always been a good provided up until before Xmas.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

How long have you been working for?

Why have you not had sex for 9 months?


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

So he was the breadwinner for YEARS and until right before christmas...a MONTH ago....he has been out of work.

Retirement or lost his job?

Now that you are earning teh money and he is home doing "nothing"

you want to divorce him and not fix your marriage....

Before I answer...lets change this around....

The husband wants to divorce his wife becuase, he is the bread winner and the wife is home and does nothing, after taking care of the kids for years....

He can be depressed from losing his job....or he may just want to take a "break" after working hard for so many years supporting his family, knowing his wife has a good job and can support them, maybe he wants to kick back for a bit.

So why don't you have sex? do you initiate it? does he turn away when you ask him for sex? 


you sound very self centered and selfish to me. I don't know the whole sory or all the details.

as of right now I have no respect for you. Show me why youdeserve it, and not your husband?

I am miffed, maybe someone else can give you solid advice, I am glad I am married to my wife who is actually the bread winner in our family and always has been, she has a great career and I want her to be the best at her profession, we raise our children together as a family, if either one of us were to lose our job, well we would manage together as a team a family...


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

GAsoccerman-

You should wait for the story to unfold a bit before jumping in with all guns blazing!


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## Rachel Marf (Jan 24, 2009)

I have always worked, around school hours etc and had help with child care etc but my job was always a 'bonus'. It was hard, my husband was out of the house for 12 hours each day, left when they were asleep and came home just as they were going to sleep. Inbetween those 12 hours I did it all. He played gol f at weekends. I don't mean to sound ungrateful as that was a few years ago now.... alot of water has gone under the bridge... I have always worked hard and played hard, so has he. But now there is no playing and I work hard. He may be depressed, i feel depressed but we both have a hard exterior and dont talk.

Re : Sex life, well that has always been a problem and I have sort of given up, I dont think we are compatible.


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## Rachel Marf (Jan 24, 2009)

I am pleased that you are settled in your life.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Rachel Marf-

Golf has got to be the biggest marriage wrecker I know!

Why was the sex life a struggle, was he not interested, or was it you, or both?


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

The post does come across as selfish, but I don't think there is enough information yet. 

As asked above...why is he not working? Why the lack of intimacy/sex? Is your husband depressed? Is this an arrangement the two of you have....for you to work now and him keep the home? Does he know that you have these homekeeper expectations of him? 

Currently, I am the housewife/SAHM and my husband is working. If our roles were to reverse I would have certain expectations, but I know there is NO WAY my husband would keep the house the way I do, keep the children the way I do....I simply have higher standards than he does and I'm a bit of a control/neat freak. So I would have to understand his limitations and be accepting of those. However, if my H had just retired (mentioned as a possiblity above) I would be happy for him to have a bit of a 'vacation' period....provided everything didn't go to hell-in-a-handbasket in the mean time. 

Anyway...some extra information will be beneficial.


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## Rachel Marf (Jan 24, 2009)

He is soooooooooo unromantic! It's on off and done. I am very romantic so get very disappointed. It's ok but doesn't fill the first page of a romantic novel.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Rachel Marf-

So are you saying he wanted sex all the time but you rejected him because he was totally unromantic as well as sub-standard between the sheets?


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## Rachel Marf (Jan 24, 2009)

He was made redundant. Yes I have ALWAYS worked hard on the house, DIY, home cooking, gardening, best presented children around, home spotless aswell as worked. He now is at home looking for work - I know it is hard out there, but hard for me when I get home from work and find nothing has changed in the house from when I left it.... it is sole destroying. Why is he aloud to be despressed and get the sympathy vote when a wife/mother has come so far and always got a kick up the backside if they dare look down!


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## brad (Jul 31, 2008)

To be honest you sound like someone lacking the compassion necessary in a relationship. Now your ego is blown up because your the breadwinner. Your no different then an arrogant husband who calls his wife "lazy" for staying home.

.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I can hear your anger and resentment. I think we may be a lot alike. I too do everything for the house and I have impossible standards. 

It seems as though you have a lot more resentment built up than simply the last month of your husband being lazy. I completely recognize and empathize with what you are saying....I've been there.....the 'why have I busted my a$$ for so many years to make a nice home, have nice things, keep everything clean, fed and running smoothly and the second you have to do it for 10 minutes it's a disaster which only makes more work for me'! 

Have you two really sat down and talked about what you need him to get done during the day? Unfortunately, unless you are married to a neat freak and all this stuff is as important to him as it is to you, I'm afraid you will have to lower your standards a bit and compromise some. Decide what you really NEED him to do during the day while you are at work. I understand the difference between something that actually has to get done (feed the kids and get them to school) vs. something that actually has to be done in order to save your sanity (wash breakfast dishes, don't leave them in the sink all day). Both are important. Mess, clutter and chaos in the house literaly makes me crazy. So those are important for him to understand. But I have had to let go of some of the stuff that didn't affect my sanity too much because I really can't hold my husband accountable to my standards and my freakishness (if that's a word). H has learned to step it up some and do things he feels are ridiculous or unnecessary simply because it keeps me happy (read: quiet!) He really does not see stuff I see that needs to be done in the same context, or with the same urgency. Your roles have been reversed and some new ground rules need to be set and agreed upon by both of you. 

More importantly, what is the underlying resentment and anger? Sex? Are you at the point where after all these years you have felt taken for granted and it is now coming to a head? Have you and your husband talked about any of this? 

I don't think he is getting the sympathy vote....I think we're looking at this and thinking, wow...it's only been a month, the guy lost his job, is probably a little depressed and scared about having to find a job in this economy, and she's wicked mad enough to leave him because the house isn't perfect? Don't worry, I look down on my husbands housekeeping skills all the time . I believe there is much more than what we know so far that is warranting such a huge, red-hot, "I'm going to leave" response from you.

Where is your anger and resentment coming from? I think the fact that you have a "love-less marriage" is more important than "nothing has changed in the house from when I left it". The housework hasn't destroyed your soul, (although I do understand how it can eat away at it), but maybe your husbands lack of attention/love/intimacy/communication?


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## bhappy3 (Feb 4, 2008)

It seems to me like you expect your husband to follow in your footsteps where you left off. Men aren't wired to hold down the house like that. Well, some men I guess I should say. His job has always been to bring home the bacon, and now that you're doing that, he feels at a loss of purpose. I think I'd try to get past that thick shell you mentioned, and talk to him about it. Did you discuss the household expectations with him? Does he know he's supposed to do the laundry and dust and vacuum and do dishes and make the bed? I'm not trying to sound sexist, but I'm sure he sees that as the woman's job and just isn't thinking about doing the stuff.


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## Rachel Marf (Jan 24, 2009)

Thank you all for your frank and honest replies. Yes I think there is a deeper problem, in our marriage, that has been building over the years and now he has turned into a lazy lump watching TV at home all day isn't helping - but now is not the time! He has provided well for us over the years with his long hours working, visits to the pub on his way home and 8 hours on the golf course of a weekend, which he couldn't have done without the back up from me at home doing everything else. The same team work that I am now depending on as I am trying to provide!

As far as the lack of enthusiasm in the bedroom department..... well I was often rejected all those years ago because he was too busy - he often worked at home until very late. Once the children came alone - I was too tired. Now we get together once or twice a year and is instigated with the help of alcohol. But inbetween there is nothing..... no sign of affection on either side... completly dead. I personally feel very sad about that, I would love to be cuddled. I know it's my fault too. I think it has gone on for too long to repair.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Rachel Marf-

I think a lot of people are on your case here, but that's partly because you made no attempt to cast your self in a superior light, like a lot of people do in their first post. Perhaps without meaning to be, you were brutally honest: something we can all value.

I'm going to guess that it's 50/50 in your marriage, nothing more nothing less. However, if you are wiling to put in 51%, you might just be able to save it.

You could move on, or you could rescue the marriage that you've got. But if you want to do a rescue operation, you have to focus on the core issues that existed long before he got made redundant and you became the breadwinner. 

You were living in separate worlds for most of your marriage, and neither of you realised that a bridge needed to be built between you. What is going on now has nothing to do with the quality of his housework, even though that was the initial premise of your thread.

Just as an example from my life... I was head of department in a job that wore me out. I was doing the work of 3 people. Eventually our department was successful enough for me to be given extra staff, but I never quite caught my breath. I left the company after 9 years, and spent 18 months at home doing nothing. I had absolutly no desire to work in any way. After the 18 month rest, I suddenly became interested in expressing myself again, and ended up making more money in the latter years, than in the former.

Now would be a great time to work on your relationship. Is he still playing golf?


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

Your husband is depressed, if I were the breadwinner for years and had plenty of $$ to play golf non stop enjoy time out with the boys....and it all came to a sudden crash, I would be extremely depressed......I am sure he is.

Now a bit for the ladies on here....Alot has to do with your upbringing, I was brought up in a house where everything had to be maintained and kept clean, So in turn I am the clean freak, I keep our house extremely clean, how many men do you know clean the curtains? My wife is the "lazy one" she has no idea how to do house work becuase her mother always did everything for her and she never had to lift a finger, so she is now a slob, so are her three sisters, so much so her mother has apologized to me, becuase when we visit, guess who helps her mother out....I do.

But anyway, the point being if you teach your child to clean up after themselves and take responsibility it willt ranslate into their adulthood.

Now the man here has been programmed to be the "man" the bread winner, do what men do...Work hard play hard, Golf, drink...never got the manual on what happens if you lose your job and have to depend on someone else. etc.

Same issue for the wife here...she does not know how to ahndle the responsibility for the other spouse, she wants him to be the man when he is down and out and can't understand why he is not out "doing something" he is having an extremely hard time.

Your sex life is in the pits becuase you are waiting for him, or you are to tired, or some other excuse by BOTH of you....

If you want to help your self and save your marriage and get your sex life back on track...go get some counseling.

MArk ahs great advice on getting your sex life back on track....but I treally think you need to get the old idea of the man being the bread winner out of your head....that ended in the 70's.....it's team game now.


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## Rachel Marf (Jan 24, 2009)

Thank you for your wise words... I was beginning to feel that I should put up and shut up. 

He is at golf as I write!

Yes we need to talk but the bridge and wall are in the way! 

I agree the redundancy is the 'cherry on the top'. I was made redundant 18 months ago which made me go in a different direction career wise and it was the best thing that could have happened... so you never know what's around the corner! I know it is harder for him - being a proud man but I always thought he was a fighter. I have been sympathetic but now I am getting annoyed with him - which in turn is bringing everything else to the surface.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Where would you like to go from here - Divorce, or a better marriage? I'm at least getting the message that you're not prepared to carry on as you are, which I see as positive


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## bhappy3 (Feb 4, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> Golf has got to be the biggest marriage wrecker I know!


hunting and softball are the biggest ones I know!


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

we are making some progress here now...

he is out golfing?? do you know why he is?? becuase, it is extremely hard for him to "save face"...example...Your hubby and the boys go golfing every weekend for the last X years. Now all of a sudden he has "cut back" but this is extremely hard when you have peer pressure from his friends, he doesn't want to "let them down"....he doesn't know how to.....walk away. Like any realtionship, walking away is tough...He loves to golf, wants to golf.....but deep in his mind he knows he is wrong and it is killing him, eating him up inside.

You need to sit down with him and go over things have a real serious conversation, say something like, "I don't think you should golf again until WE find you another job, I am worried about OUR bills and what the future holds, WE should build up a nest egg!" then drive into his head how much faith you ahve in him to get a new and BETTER job soon even in this tough economy.

he will need some reassurance from you, not to escape your nagging or complaining that he is no good.

You need to rebuild this relationship, you both need to have some deep conversations and get it all out on the table...maybe over a bottle of wine at a resturant, where we can not get into a screaming match, a nice diplomatic talk where your future lies together.


you both really need to sit down and figure out where you BOTH stand....only then you can truly move on in either direction.


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

I am joining an adult soccer leauge....we will see what happens...


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## Rachel Marf (Jan 24, 2009)

The house is on the market as we no longer can afford the mortgage so very important to keep up together everywhere. I'm working full time and sometimes weekends. Why is it he can wallow in self pity when the rest of us around is working hard to keep things going. This change of direction is going to affect us all but we cant take the route of giving up! I sometimes wonder if it would be better to be lonely on my own rather than lonely in a marriage. Giving up the damned golf membership will be the last thing to give up. Ok so he may be depressed/feeling low (he never has been before), I could feel depressed if I really thought about it - but actually he needs to be strong.


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## Rachel Marf (Jan 24, 2009)

Neither of us have told our friends about his job loss! Only our family knows.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Rachel Marf-

When one faces difficulty as a family, it is important not to be at war with each other, because it is better to be "us" against the world.

At this stage, the golf may be the only thing keeping his moral up. Why don't you sit him down and talk about improving the marriage? Out of a strong marriage can come strong solutions. As someone more clever than I once said: "water the root to enjoy the fruit"

That is assuming you want a better marriage - to _this _man.


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

Is this gold membership a private club? So you guys are keeping up this charade for your friends because your afraid of what they might say in "whispers?"

Also not telling your friends is not a good thing, are you guys going to wait for help until it is to late?

Pride is a wonderful thing, but saying you lost your job, is not the end of the world.

I am sure if he simply said to his friends and to your friends they would be sympathetic.

You both are being stubborn...

Can you refinace the mortgage? have you tried? The bank does not want you going under, empty houses are a bad thing. talk top your bank, many credit cards offer insurance if you lose your job for your bills to be covered, do you have that?

What ahve you guys tried besides hiding things from your friends?

We have three children, if I were to lose my job tomorrow, I would have No problem telling my friends! Why? becuase they are the first ones who will help me get out of this rut.

So do you guys have actual friends or just people that you need to impress? Friends help out in times of need.

Come up with a weekly Budget so you can afford your mortgage and stick to it...you have to make cuts, sacrifices, etc.


I tell my friend, i am worried about layoff's, he said to me, well if you get laid off let me know I can find a temporary spot for you with my company (he owns it) until you get a job in your sector...I told him thanks if it ever happens I just might take him up on it.


Friends equal networking, networking equals jobs and oppurtunity...but not saying anything you are cutting off your best resource.

you two really need to talk deeply and get your priorities straight.

I agree he should man up, stop golfing tell his friends and get the butt in gear, not paying your mortgage is the worst thing you can do finacially you BOTH will be wrecked for years


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## MsLady (Dec 1, 2008)

Sounds like you both have placed way too much value on the financial and the status ("best presented kids", hiding it from friends as if it's shameful, etc). Since he was the one providing the bulk of the money, I can see how he's devastated. You are right that it doesn't give him the right to let go of responsibilities ... but give them man a moment. It's only been a month. It makes sense that he's totally disoriented as to how to keep house or even how to keep his head up.

From the way that you write about your relationship, I can see why your marriage is in the gutter. You both seem to be highly unsupportive and unsympathetic to the other. Your full resentment is probably kicking in because now you don't even need him for the money. I'm guessing you were just as unhappy before he lost his job, but now that you don't need his income (don't have it actually) it's much easier to think about leaving him. He has become redundant, indeed. And what a sad statement to make about your spouse based on lack of money.

I suggest that if you want cuddles, you give him some. If you want compassion, you give him some. If you want conversation, you start one.

Listen, I have major marital problems as well, so I hope I don't sound like I'm on a pulpit. But it does sound like you are both so selfish that you haven't given each other much love or credit for the hard work that you have both done for your family. I imagine there is plenty of resentment on both sides.

When you say "The table have turned", you are wrong. When you chose the division of labor to be working dad and stay-at-home mom that was very different than a man unwillingly losing his job (and the family's home). You can't (and shouldn't) compare and think that he's supposed to just go home and be Suzie-homemaker all of a sudden. Sounds like he's working hard at looking for new work. I do think he needs to help in the home ... give him a list of chores. I'm a SAHM and it's taken me years to sort out what needs to be done and how to go about getting it all done. Also, don't expect him to do as much since looking for work takes a lot of time and research.

If you want to leave him because there is no love, fine. If you want to leave him because he's not making money for you anymore, that's sad!


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

right now is actually a perfect time for HIM to DIVORCE YOU!!! why??

becuase he has ZERO income and no job... YOU DO!

Guess who will pay the alimony??? not him, it will be YOU.

everything else gets split 50/50.

go ahead leave him....becuase you will be flipping the bill for the divorce. (both parties)

otherwwise I would really try and make this thing work...but then again...


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