# Terrified of Separation/Divorce, But Not Sure if Other Options Exist



## TidesHaveTurned (Jun 13, 2017)

There is a lot to post but I want to be as brief as I can so I don’t take up too much of your time.

I have been married more than 10 years. 2 kids, both under 10. 

Things haven’t been great for a few years. Things came to a head two years ago when I discovered numerous instances of infidelity. I had made some mistakes too. We did a little bit of marriage counseling. I forgave her, but I never really felt she took responsibility for what she did. This came up in the last couple of days when she mentioned that I gave her PTSD when I found out about the affairs. I was like, “I caused you PTSD?”

The issues that we have are numerous. Money is a big one (she can’t keep to a budget and is definitely the spender). Parenting is another one that we don’t see eye to eye on (discipline for the kids, things that we think are okay and are not okay). Religion is another one (we both began the marriage as active Mormons and I have lost my faith). 

I think we are at the point where the tension and resentment between us is just no healthy. I feel like I have never been able to please her. I have never been affectionate enough, spiritual enough, or other things. 

We used to go through these episodes and I would try desperately to save the relationship. I would always do the apologizing. I would always be the one to initiate conversations and try to talk through the issues. Now I am just tired and not sure I can really spend any more energy fixing things.

I am terrified of separation and/or divorce (I thought the money problems were bad now!), but I am not sure what else to do. I am not sure either of us have the energy to make this work.

It just seems like the communication doesn’t work any more and no matter what I try to do to fix it, I just can’t. I just get frustrated because the things that divide us (money, parenting, lack of commonality anymore) never get better.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TidesHaveTurned said:


> Things haven’t been great for a few years. Things came to a head two years ago when I discovered numerous instances of infidelity. I had made some mistakes too.


You made some mistakes too? Does that mean that you cheated too?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

It takes work to make a marriage work and it seems you are defeated and can't put anymore effort in. 
I'm my opinion you have 2 options. Work on the issues. Or separate. Make sure your wife knows where you are, be honest with your feelings. What does your wife think about the marriage and divorce?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

.


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## TidesHaveTurned (Jun 13, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> You made some mistakes too? Does that mean that you cheated too?


EleGirl, yes I did. I came clean to my wife, confessed everything, and she forgave me. In hindsight, I felt she was a little too forgiving. I later learned why. When I first confessed, I asked her about a charge for a hotel room that I had noticed on her credit card statement several months before. She then confessed to cheating, but claimed it was only that one time and it wasn't still going on. I found out five months later that it wasn't one time, and it did not end when she said it did. While I stopped, she did not. When it all came out five months after my confession (and after her partial confession), I also learned that it was more than one person and had been going on for about three years. Then, after that big reveal, I found out three months after that that the behavior continued.

I realize what I did was wrong, very wrong, and I tried to be contrite and honest with her about what I had done. I fully expected her to leave me and was prepared for that. I didn't hold anything against her or blame her. I just feel like I didn't get the same respect from her. She lied to me on numerous occasions, and then claims that I caused her PTSD by how I reacted to her multiple affairs. I see this as almost a complete lack of responsibility on her part. 

But after all this, we went to counseling (a few visits) and things really improved. Our communication improved and things were going better. But we have had some serious ups and downs. I am just at a place where I can't really handle the downs anymore. 

I know what most people are going to say. We both made terrible decisions, we acted very irresponsibly, acted like children, and I get that. The question is whether we can move forward and fix this or if it is irreparably damaged.

My wife also seems to think that if we divorce, she gets to keep the house and I have to go live in an apartment somewhere.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Yes, you have an opportunity to fix this but it will require you both to create a VERY different marriage than what you have now, which made affairs on both sides possible. I'd suggest downloading Surviving an Affair and following the steps given to recover and implementing the checklist of extraordinary precautions so the chances of another affair damaging the marriage are eliminated. 

I'd tell your wife that you realize that you've both made mistakes and you want to create a happier, more fulfilling marriage with her, where something like this will never happen again.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TidesHaveTurned said:


> EleGirl, yes I did. I came clean to my wife, confessed everything, and she forgave me. In hindsight, I felt she was a little too forgiving. I later learned why. When I first confessed, I asked her about a charge for a hotel room that I had noticed on her credit card statement several months before. She then confessed to cheating, but claimed it was only that one time and it wasn't still going on. I found out five months later that it wasn't one time, and it did not end when she said it did. While I stopped, she did not. When it all came out five months after my confession (and after her partial confession), I also learned that it was more than one person and had been going on for about three years. Then, after that big reveal, I found out three months after that that the behavior continued.
> 
> I realize what I did was wrong, very wrong, and I tried to be contrite and honest with her about what I had done. I fully expected her to leave me and was prepared for that. I didn't hold anything against her or blame her. I just feel like I didn't get the same respect from her. She lied to me on numerous occasions, and then claims that I caused her PTSD by how I reacted to her multiple affairs. I see this as almost a complete lack of responsibility on her part.
> 
> ...


Ok, now we have a much better picture.

Yes this can be fixed. Both of you have a lot of work to do.

First off, if she asks you to move out DO NOT. It is your legal residence as well as hers. She had no legal right to tell you to move out. She has no more right to the house or the children than you do.

You might want to get a consultation with a lawyer or two. There are many who will give free half hour to an hour consultations. So you can ask them questions like what outcome is usually with the house, custody, etc. And ask about what you want... do you want at least 50% custody.

Why on earth does she think that she is getting the house?

Does she have a job?

You should probably start with the book "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley. Then read "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs".

If she decides to try to work on the marriage with you, she too should read "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs" and then two of you would do the work that the books say to do. These two books give a very good path to restoring your marriage, rebuilding trust, etc.

Now of course I have to ask, why does she say she got PTSD with the revelations of the previous affairs? What makes her so traumatized about it.

Another thing that she needs to contemplate is that if her faith is so important, to the point of jeopardizing your marriage, why did she cheat? I'm pretty sure that infidelity is not allowed in as a Mormon.

If you can get her to realize that she's most likely not going to waltz out of this marriage with the house and the kids.... that you have as much right as she does... she might return to reality.

You know that one of the goals of divorce courts is to keep the parties in the same financial situation as prior to the divorce. This applies to both parties, not just the woman. For about 97% of the population, that means that each will be living on about 50% of what they had before with 50% of the assets and 50% of the debt.

My ex-sister-in-law thought that 'maintain the same life style" meant that she was getting everything and he was going to have to work 2 jobs to ensure that she was kept in style after divorce. 

Opps.... she's not a happy camper now.


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## lisacolorado (May 2, 2017)

This could be a candidate for "living apart together," ie living in the same house and making sure everything is shipshape, except not expecting marital closeness. Do you think your spouse would agree to that?


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## TidesHaveTurned (Jun 13, 2017)

lisacolorado said:


> This could be a candidate for "living apart together," ie living in the same house and making sure everything is shipshape, except not expecting marital closeness. Do you think your spouse would agree to that?


This is essentially what is going on right now. Although things improved over the weekend. After two days of not really speaking to me and not the kindest of looks, I approached my wife on Saturday and just tried to cuddle her and talk. I just felt like someone needed to try and break the ice and see where things are at. After a bit of conversation, she made a comment about not wanting to go with me somewhere that day. I withdrew and then she said that she was being sarcastic. She treated me better after that, but I felt withdrawn emotionally. Almost like I had mentally accepted a separation. She doesn't like to talk about things, she just pretends that nothing happened. But I know that if we don't talk about it and address, and it is just going to come back in a few weeks and we will be right back where we started.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I'm going through many of the same things in my marriage. We have never been able to agree on many of the same issues that you mention, money, parenting, religion issues. She's also made me feel like whatever I do isn't good enough or the right thing and I'm always apologizing to her about one thing or another. I've recently concluded that what I'm doing as far as keeping the marriage alive isn't sustainable. I'm tired of taking the blame and being wrong all the time, I'd rather be alone then be on trial everyday.


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## TidesHaveTurned (Jun 13, 2017)

jb02157 said:


> I'm going through many of the same things in my marriage. We have never been able to agree on many of the same issues that you mention, money, parenting, religion issues. She's also made me feel like whatever I do isn't good enough or the right thing and I'm always apologizing to her about one thing or another. I've recently concluded that what I'm doing as far as keeping the marriage alive isn't sustainable. I'm tired of taking the blame and being wrong all the time, I'd rather be alone then be on trial everyday.


You are right. It sounds like we do have the same issues. So what's your advice? How do you handle it? I feel the same way about sustainability. I have just lost all hope that things will get better.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

TidesHaveTurned said:


> You are right. It sounds like we do have the same issues. So what's your advice? How do you handle it? I feel the same way about sustainability. I have just lost all hope that things will get better.


I don't think things will get better either. I made the mistake of thinking this way back 20 years when it was clear our marriage was heading South and probably wouldn't recover. I thought that it can't stay bad like this forever. I obviously was wrong. I've tried everything I could to try to make the marriage better, but when you only have one person who wants things to be better it won't happen. I really made up my mind recently that I am going to divorce her next year when our youngest graduates. Being alone with her it something I don't want. I've put up with her BS long enough.


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## TidesHaveTurned (Jun 13, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Now of course I have to ask, why does she say she got PTSD with the revelations of the previous affairs? What makes her so traumatized about it.


That is a good question. When I found out about everything, I was really hurt (and rightfully so). We had a lot of discussions. I was definitely upset, but I didn't attack her or anything like that. I probably raised my voice, and I probably said that I wasn't sure if I wanted to stay together or what was going to happen. Honestly, given what I was hit with, I don't see how I reacted in a way that was anything out of the ordinary. 

My problem with her comment is that she is making it about her. I caused her PTSD when she revealed multiple affairs. I think it shows a lack of responsibility on her part to take responsibility for her actions, admit they were wrong and very hurtful, and do whatever was necessary to make things right. I don't think a spouse gets to claim PTSD because they revealed multiple affairs and the other spouse doesn't just roll over like everything is fine. Does that make sense?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TidesHaveTurned said:


> That is a good question. When I found out about everything, I was really hurt (and rightfully so). We had a lot of discussions. I was definitely upset, but I didn't attack her or anything like that. I probably raised my voice, and I probably said that I wasn't sure if I wanted to stay together or what was going to happen. Honestly, given what I was hit with, I don't see how I reacted in a way that was anything out of the ordinary.
> 
> My problem with her comment is that she is making it about her. I caused her PTSD when she revealed multiple affairs. I think it shows a lack of responsibility on her part to take responsibility for her actions, admit they were wrong and very hurtful, and do whatever was necessary to make things right. I don't think a spouse gets to claim PTSD because they revealed multiple affairs and the other spouse doesn't just roll over like everything is fine. Does that make sense?


If you had gone off the handle, were extremely verbally abusive or physically abusive, I might understand her claim to PTSD.

But generally, it is the betrayed spouse who ends up with some PTSD.

I think that it's just a term that she has picked up on that she thinks helps her defend herself and has helped her put a wall between what she did wrong and the image she wants to have of herself.

Generally, I don't like to compare on person's suffering to another. But I think that the claims of PTSD by some in our society has just gotten to be ridiculous.

Whatever her imagined hurt, it does not compare to the horror that say solider in combat go through; or that victims of horrible violence go through. It's an insult to people who have truly suffered thing that scar them mentally and that hurt their ability to function.

Don't even buy into her claim. She basically does not want to be married to you. In her mind you are the bully who will not let her run around with other men. 

You really need to accept the end of this relationship. If she is claiming PTSD because you expressed the hurt she caused you in a civilized manner, then imagine what she will fabricate in the future to get her way. Do you really want to take a chance on crazy.... well any more chance than you have already taken?


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

stick a fork in it. 

your both done. time to move on.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

chillymorn69 said:


> stick a fork in it.
> 
> your both done. time to move on.


Yep.

Just dump her already.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

TidesHaveTurned said:


> That is a good question. When I found out about everything, I was really hurt (and rightfully so). We had a lot of discussions. I was definitely upset, but I didn't attack her or anything like that. I probably raised my voice, and I probably said that I wasn't sure if I wanted to stay together or what was going to happen. Honestly, given what I was hit with, I don't see how I reacted in a way that was anything out of the ordinary.
> 
> My problem with her comment is that she is making it about her. I caused her PTSD when she revealed multiple affairs. I think it shows a lack of responsibility on her part to take responsibility for her actions, admit they were wrong and very hurtful, and do whatever was necessary to make things right. I don't think a spouse gets to claim PTSD because they revealed multiple affairs and the other spouse doesn't just roll over like everything is fine. Does that make sense?


Her claiming that YOU caused PTSD is just blameshifting and deflecting on her part. She isnt remorseful for what she's done, and by putting this on you, it takes focus off of what she did. Personally, I would advise that you end the marriage. You have put in a massive effort and for you to feel this way after all this time, its time to go and find yourself some happy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah you cheated. But she is a SERIAL cheater. Those are two very different things. Plus the fact that she blames YOU. Not great signs. 

Are you worried about excommunication or anything? 

Does your state have decent custody rules?


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## TidesHaveTurned (Jun 13, 2017)

I am not worried about excommunication. My belief/faith has really shifted, and I don't really attend any more. For me to get excommunicated, she would have to confess to a priesthood leader what I had done. If she did that, her problems would likely come out and she would be excommunicated as well. But excommunication doesn't hold much weight over me at this point.

I am not sure about the custody rules. I would hope for at least 50/50 if things go south.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, you'd better educate yourself, because when women decide to leave, they often have a scorched earth policy and you may be left penniless, childless, and homeless. Pay a lawyer for a consultation, if nothing else.

I was thinking more along the lines of how the church could mess up your life. I have a friend who hasn't divorced for that very reason.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

turnera said:


> Well, you'd better educate yourself, because when women decide to leave, they often have a scorched earth policy and you may be left penniless, childless, and homeless. Pay a lawyer for a consultation, if nothing else.
> 
> I was thinking more along the lines of how the church could mess up your life. I have a friend who hasn't divorced for that very reason.


How can the church mess up your life? I wouldn't want to be part of any religon that would look down on you because of a divorce.

The whole priest thing is why i am not catholic. I'M NOT BASHING ANYBODY WHO IS CATHOLIC ITS JUST NOT FOR ME. 

I consider myself christian. 

But really how can a church mess up your life. Do they stalk you? Get you fired? What could they possibly do ?


i really want to know.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, according to my friend who's Mormon, financial difficulties, removal from the church, removal from friends and family (banning), loss of support.


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## TidesHaveTurned (Jun 13, 2017)

turnera said:


> Well, according to my friend who's Mormon, financial difficulties, removal from the church, removal from friends and family (banning), loss of support.


Yep, all those things. But that is more prevalent in communities that are largely LDS. I don't live in Utah, so I don't have to worry about that. Removal from the church is definitely a possibility for both her and I. There also could be some family and friends fall out. But not nearly as bad as it would be if we lived in Utah.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My friend is in Texas. It's the only reason he hasn't divorced his wife. And his kids are grown!


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## MamaxP (Jun 20, 2017)

I know exactly how you feel. I'm tired of trying to work things out with my husband. Communication is the key to a relationship. 


Have you sat down and talked about it? Telling her how you feel? Mad respect to you, you've put your pride aside and did all the apologizing even if you know you or her or who Evers at fault. 


MamaxP


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## TidesHaveTurned (Jun 13, 2017)

MamaxP said:


> I know exactly how you feel. I'm tired of trying to work things out with my husband. Communication is the key to a relationship.
> 
> 
> Have you sat down and talked about it? Telling her how you feel? Mad respect to you, you've put your pride aside and did all the apologizing even if you know you or her or who Evers at fault.
> ...


It doesn't seem like she really wants to talk about it. When she threatened divorce last week, I said that we should just cool off for a couple of days and then see how we felt. On the third day after she asked for divorce, I climbed into bed with her and cuddled her and just tried to be close to her. That is when she made the comment about not wanting to go somewhere with me that day, and I withdrew and she claimed she was being sarcastic. Since that time we have kinda been going about our lives, not particularly close but not particularly distant either. No intimacy. But she hasn't said anything about divorce, staying together, long term, etc. She did make a joking comment about me living in an apartment, but it truly was said in a joking way and I didn't take it in a hurtful way. She goes through moods (as we all do) and I can't tell if last week was just a mood or if there was truth behind what she said. I think honestly she is not happy, but she doesn't really want to do the work to make things better.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

She is trying to hold all the cards and guess what she nothing in them....call her buff...file. you are dealing with someone who is blame shifting and rug sweeping...don't put up with that.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

TidesHaveTurned said:


> *It doesn't seem like she really wants to talk about it.* When she threatened divorce last week, I said that we should just cool off for a couple of days and then see how we felt. On the third day after she asked for divorce, I climbed into bed with her and cuddled her and just tried to be close to her. That is when she made the comment about not wanting to go somewhere with me that day, and I withdrew and she claimed she was being sarcastic. Since that time we have kinda been going about our lives, not particularly close but not particularly distant either. No intimacy. But she hasn't said anything about divorce, staying together, long term, etc. She did make a joking comment about me living in an apartment, but it truly was said in a joking way and I didn't take it in a hurtful way. She goes through moods (as we all do) and I can't tell if last week was just a mood or if there was truth behind what she said. *I think honestly she is not happy, but she doesn't really want to do the work to make things better.*


Then make the decision for her and end this. You arent happy and you have a crappy wife who isnt happy and doesnt respect you. What kind of positive are you getting out of this besides the fact you can say you are still married?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

TidesHaveTurned said:


> I am not worried about excommunication. My belief/faith has really shifted, and I don't really attend any more. For me to get excommunicated, she would have to confess to a priesthood leader what I had done. If she did that, her problems would likely come out and she would be excommunicated as well. But excommunication doesn't hold much weight over me at this point.
> 
> I am not sure about the custody rules. I would hope for at least 50/50 if things go south.


Things are already quite "south", sir.

Serials don't stop, man.

Never ever.

You're better off just filing.

If needed, use an unspoken threat of exposure/ex-communication to move things along in a fair manner.


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## MamaxP (Jun 20, 2017)

TidesHaveTurned said:


> It doesn't seem like she really wants to talk about it. When she threatened divorce last week, I said that we should just cool off for a couple of days and then see how we felt. On the third day after she asked for divorce, I climbed into bed with her and cuddled her and just tried to be close to her. That is when she made the comment about not wanting to go somewhere with me that day, and I withdrew and she claimed she was being sarcastic. Since that time we have kinda been going about our lives, not particularly close but not particularly distant either. No intimacy. But she hasn't said anything about divorce, staying together, long term, etc. She did make a joking comment about me living in an apartment, but it truly was said in a joking way and I didn't take it in a hurtful way. She goes through moods (as we all do) and I can't tell if last week was just a mood or if there was truth behind what she said. I think honestly she is not happy, but she doesn't really want to do the work to make things better.




I'm sorry you are going through this. I wish I had the right words to say but I don't. But I do know you're hurting. And when someone is hurting all they want to do is speak to someone and let them be heard. I am happy I found this website. We get to let out everything that's bottled up inside of us. Hang in there. I hope things get better for you and your wife. 


MamaxP


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## TidesHaveTurned (Jun 13, 2017)

Well, it looks like things hit the breaking point. As I stated earlier, we were kind of going about our lives. We didn't really address my wife's comments from a week and a half ago about wanting a divorce. Things weren't great, but they weren't terrible. Saturday was a good day. Then last night I think we crossed the line of no return. I was upset about some things involving my children, and I got really upset and tried to leave the room. She yelled at me and pushed me, then threatened to punch me in the face. We were both in the wrong here (I shouldn't have let my frustration get the better of me, which I seem to do a lot lately). But the threat of physical violence is something that is just not okay. So I think it is time to put the wheels in motion. My heart breaks for my kids and how their lives are going to be affected by this. But I don't really see any other option at this point.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@Uptown


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

@*Farsidejunky,* thanks for the callout. 



TidesHaveTurned said:


> She claims that I caused her PTSD by how I reacted to her multiple affairs. I see this as almost a complete lack of responsibility on her part.


Tides, I agree with you, *Farside*, *3X*, and other respondents that this absurd claim does show a lack of remorse and a refusal to accept any responsibility. Your W essentially is demanding that you apologize for hurting her fist when you hit it with your nose.



> She yelled at me and pushed me, then threatened to punch me in the face. We were both in the wrong here (I shouldn't have let my frustration get the better of me, which I seem to do a lot lately). But the threat of physical violence is something that is just not okay.


Physical violence is strongly associated with having strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting that your W exhibits full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it. Given that this is the first time in ten years she has pushed you and threatened to hit you, I don't find this isolated incident very concerning (as a warning sign for BPD). More concerning is the unstable behavior you describe for the past ten years -- and your inability to ever please her. Also concerning is the serial cheating she did two years ago.

I therefore believe it may be worth your while to take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_ to see if most sound very familiar. If they do, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings many bells and raises questions, I would be glad to join *Farside*, *3X*, and the other respondents in discussing them with you.

I caution that BPD is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot know the answer to that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD (or NPD) warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as very controlling behavior, always being "The Victim," and rapid event-triggered mood flips.

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Although strong BPD symptoms are easy to spot when they occur, only a professional can decide whether they are so severe as to constitute full-blown BPD. The main reason for learning these red flags, then -- like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack -- is that they may help you avoid a very painful situation. Take care, Tides.


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